You're probably right. I guess I'm still foolishly holding on to some hope that this could turn around.

I just watch the Patriots... Devin McCourty is just getting torched out there. Patrick Chung is giving up TDs to TEs... but at the same time... they are making big plays too. They have so much faith in their draft picks, it never ceases to amaze me. Brandon Spikes got so much negative pub as the draft approached... Pats got him and now they look golden in the middle with Spikes and Mayo. I mean seriously... we need to trust our own guys too and let them play through their mistakes. Especially Lee. Dude doesn't make the same mistake twice very often.

McCourty from what I've heard is actually playing pretty well this year. They threw him into the fire and he's their #1 CB right now and I expected growing pains but I've also read a lot of positives.

McCourty has done some nice things, but I love how NE is letting him take his lumps too. He's had some costly mistakes/penalties, but they let him play through it. He'll make a lot more mistakes too. It doesn't matter, even vets make mistakes... but at least they're finding out fast what they got.

McCourty has done some nice things, but I love how NE is letting him take his lumps too. He's had some costly mistakes/penalties, but they let him play through it. He'll make a lot more mistakes too. It doesn't matter, even vets make mistakes... but at least they're finding out fast what they got.

No reason why Dallas shouldn't be starting AOA over Ball right now.

Great points! When we have had a no nonsense coach like Johnson or Parcells the best players played. When we have had players coaches like Switzer, Phillips and Campo the favorites play. On the field performance does not matter.

Great points! When we have had a no nonsense coach like Johnson or Parcells the best players played. When we have had players coaches like Switzer, Phillips and Campo the favorites play. On the field performance does not matter.

I agree to an extent, but how do we even know AOA or Jason Williams actually ARE the best players? I fully believe in letting the best guys play, but it's a whole nother issue to just assume those guys are the best.

While the guys in front of them may not be world beaters, we aren't out of the playoffs, or the division race yet, so it's not just open season to playing back-ups like it's the pre-season. We haven't seen those guys in practice yet, so it's a little hard for me to start bashing him for playing guys who by all accounts could be worse.

Were comparing him to McCourty who was a 1st round pick, in the early 20's, to AOA, a mid round Safety from a Div-1AA school we was a developmental project while were still in the hunt to win the division. I agree with the premise, but two completely different scenarios.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

Is it me or is Garrett making excuses for lack of points his offenses produces. First, he stated the defense was not getting enough turnovers and leaving a long field for the offense. Yes, it is true, but Garrett's job to orchestrate scoring drives by having a great game plan. No matter how far from the end-zone you are! Second, he is privately stating he can't run the complete offense with the current o-Line. This offensive line is built to run block. Maybe if Garrett had a great game plan the boys would score more!

To be clear, my issue is with an offensive coordinator and potential head coach blaming the players. He is not being accountable for he poor performance!

I agree to an extent, but how do we even know AOA or Jason Williams actually ARE the best players? I fully believe in letting the best guys play, but it's a whole nother issue to just assume those guys are the best.

While the guys in front of them may not be world beaters, we aren't out of the playoffs, or the division race yet, so it's not just open season to playing back-ups like it's the pre-season. We haven't seen those guys in practice yet, so it's a little hard for me to start bashing him for playing guys who by all accounts could be worse.

Were comparing him to McCourty who was a 1st round pick, in the early 20's, to AOA, a mid round Safety from a Div-1AA school we was a developmental project while were still in the hunt to win the division. I agree with the premise, but two completely different scenarios.

I agree with your point. There is strong evidence to support my arguement. Free sat on the bench and never really had a shot to prove himself till he was really needed. Young players need to play and learn from their mistakes. Heck, some of the players mentioned are not performing at a high level. Why not try a young faster player and let him develop.

AOA isnt even from a D1-AA school...he's from a DII school. haha. The fact that he isnt starting over a veteran right now, makes tons of sense. Add in the fact that he missed an enormous portion of camp to start things off.

The comparison is off there a bit...considering the other guy, is a 1st rounder from Rutgers. As LL mentioned. lol.

J Williams and AOA are both developmental athletes, from small schools. It's going to take a while. Players taking "lumps" early isnt always the best route to go. Especially for those that need some big development to begin with. These "lumps" could end up damaging a once promising talent, if you rush things. Plus, how long is their leash? If they struggle, you may be tempted to kick them to the curb, too early, instead of giving them ample time to develop.

I agree with your point. There is strong evidence to support my arguement. Free sat on the bench and never really had a shot to prove himself till he was really needed. Young players need to play and learn from their mistakes. Heck, some of the players mentioned are not performing at a high level. Why not try a young faster player and let him develop.

Because you can't just start throwing young players out into the fire just for the hell of letting them develop when your trying to win games, it doesn't work like that. That, and you guys seem to be forgetting McCourty was a 1st round pick, Free and AOA were both mid round picks. For all we know Free may not have done as well had he played from day one, but who was he supposed to play over? Columbo and Flozell had been playing like pro bowlers, Free needed ample time to develop, that's what he was drafted to do.

No Alan Ball isn't performing at a high level, how do we know AOA won't be worse? Yea if we are 1-9 then hell yea throw those guys out, but were 2 losses behind having a bye week in the NFC, it's not the time to start throwing out young guys everywhere.

We can't see them in practice, we don't know how well or bad they are playing, and if they are alot worse we can't afford to be losing games trying to play the guessing game. I'm in agreement with what you want to do, but again we can't be comparing mid round picks from small schools to 1st rounders from huge schools. Some guys need to develop, and it's not like every team just throws rookies out in the starting lineup just to "see what they have", Free started at the right time but it's not like Flo or Columbo were terrible for a year before it happened.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

...and that was just ONE example. Jason Williams needs to see the field more. So does Sean Lee. We overuse Brooking and James.

You guys go into it thinking you can't trust your young players... you're just as scared as our staff! You say, "How do we know they won't be worse???" How about asking yourself, "How do we know they won't be better???"

...and don't tell me anything about how practice tells you all you need to know about a player. Some guys practice bad, but when the big lights come on, they are studs. Vice versa. Fact is, we won't know until they get real playing time.

The Patriots play their guys and it's not like they don't have playoff aspirations. So I don't know why we're any different. Patriots start DE Brandon Deaderick, 2010 7th round pick.... Start OLB Jermaine Cunningham, 2010 2nd round pick... Start ILB Brandon Spikes, 2010 2nd round pick... Starting RCB Kyle Arrington... Undrafted in 2009. Played 5 games last year and now he starts.

Don't try to tell me that we can't play our young guys because we still have hopes for the playoffs. Hogwash!

...and another thing... you can't classify players and throw them all in the same basket. Oh Free took years before he emerged, so that's they way it has to be for all midround players. F dat. All players develop differently. Who knows that we couldn't have cut Flo earlier if we had played Free a long time ago???

AOA isnt even from a D1-AA school...he's from a DII school. haha. The fact that he isnt starting over a veteran right now, makes tons of sense. Add in the fact that he missed an enormous portion of camp to start things off.

The comparison is off there a bit...considering the other guy, is a 1st rounder from Rutgers. As LL mentioned. lol.

J Williams and AOA are both developmental athletes, from small schools. It's going to take a while. Players taking "lumps" early isnt always the best route to go. Especially for those that need some big development to begin with. These "lumps" could end up damaging a once promising talent, if you rush things. Plus, how long is their leash? If they struggle, you may be tempted to kick them to the curb, too early, instead of giving them ample time to develop.

Sometimes getting rid of them early can be a good thing to. Rather than hold on too long until you realize you've got crap. Hello Pat McQuistan, Patrick Watkins... next in line... Alan Ball.

...and that was just ONE example. Jason Williams needs to see the field more. So does Sean Lee. We overuse Brooking and James.

You guys go into it thinking you can't trust your young players... you're just as scared as our staff! You say, "How do we know they won't be worse???" How about asking yourself, "How do we know they won't be better???"

...and don't tell me anything about how practice tells you all you need to know about a player. Some guys practice bad, but when the big lights come on, they are studs. Vice versa. Fact is, we won't know until they get real playing time.

The Patriots play their guys and it's not like they don't have playoff aspirations. So I don't know why we're any different. Patriots start DE Brandon Deaderick, 2010 7th round pick.... Start OLB Jermaine Cunningham, 2010 2nd round pick... Start ILB Brandon Spikes, 2010 2nd round pick... Starting RCB Kyle Arrington... Undrafted in 2009. Played 5 games last year and now he starts.

Don't try to tell me that we can't play our young guys because we still have hopes for the playoffs. Hogwash!

So even if Jason Williams, AOA, or anyone else isn't better then the starter we should just play them anyway because their young? You know not every team does it this way? The Steelers hardly ever play a 1st round pick, let alone a 2nd-6th rounder in the first, sometimes 2nd year. If a young guy shows he should be playing then cool, but we shouldn't be playing them just because.

Only reason I brought up McCourty is because you were saying "look at the Pats, they let him take his lumps and keep going", but you act like he's not a 1st rounder. Did we not let Jenkins take a ton of lumps in his rookie season, or did we bench him the entire season? What 1st round pick did we not let play? That's only been my point.

Besides that, there was no reason to cuz Flozell any earlier, the dude has been a rock. Maybe he could have been traded, but maybe Free also needed that much time to develop into the player he was. We don't know. He could of been ready to start year 1 or he could have needed all this time, with how he's turned out I'm gonna say we handled the situation perfectly. Alan Ball may not be a good Safety, but I don't think any one of us know for a fact that he isn't the best FS on our roster.

It's not time to just throw guys into the fire and just "figure out" if they can or can't play. 2 more losses in a row and sure I'm right on board, but I heavily disagree with just chunking guys in the roster who have no business being there other then they are just young and were drafted.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

...and that was just ONE example. Jason Williams needs to see the field more. So does Sean Lee. We overuse Brooking and James.

You guys go into it thinking you can't trust your young players... you're just as scared as our staff! You say, "How do we know they won't be worse???" How about asking yourself, "How do we know they won't be better???"

...and don't tell me anything about how practice tells you all you need to know about a player. Some guys practice bad, but when the big lights come on, they are studs. Vice versa. Fact is, we won't know until they get real playing time.

The Patriots play their guys and it's not like they don't have playoff aspirations. So I don't know why we're any different. Patriots start DE Brandon Deaderick, 2010 7th round pick.... Start OLB Jermaine Cunningham, 2010 2nd round pick... Start ILB Brandon Spikes, 2010 2nd round pick... Starting RCB Kyle Arrington... Undrafted in 2009. Played 5 games last year and now he starts.

Don't try to tell me that we can't play our young guys because we still have hopes for the playoffs. Hogwash!

Ok, enlighten me for a second on how you think the Patriots decide to make those guys starters? They don't just randomly go... Oh let's put so and so out on the field and see what he has over this guy who we know what he has......

No, they see what the guy has in practice. Your saying that practice doesn't matter because some guys are gamers....They might be a gamer but look at some of the "gamers" in the league and tell me how long they went without starting in the NFL.....Julius Peppers is an example, he was considered a guy that sucked in practice, "a gamer". If your wanting to put a "young guy" or any guy out there that hasn't had the game experience they have to have the ability to play the gameplan.....

You don't go in to a week and say oh, we wanna start Jason Williams, or we wanna give him a lot more reps. If he doesn't know the defense, or doesn't communicate or doesn't make the plays he should make in practice then why would you put that guy on the field?

Ok, let's take that as an example, Jason Williams. Say he goes to a week of practice and tears it up, I mean he is making every play he is suppossed to and a good number of them he isn't. Then the coaches are going to say, "Hey I think a light just clicked for this guy." He will get more reps because he actually had an idea of what was going on. You can't put someone out there that can't preform in practice, no one put Tony Romo onto the field because he was a "young guy" and needed reps. He got on the field because of injuries and because he knew the offense in PRACTICE.

Sidenote: Look at the NFL these days though, the communication is a huge factor, calling out blocks, plays, audibles, audibles to the audibles....If a player can't get the basics of those then he is going to have a hard time in a game with the pressure on.

Sometimes getting rid of them early can be a good thing to. Rather than hold on too long until you realize you've got crap. Hello Pat McQuistan, Patrick Watkins... next in line... Alan Ball.

I guess I am just gonna have to be oppossing you for the evening...

Pat McQuistan, you call crap, is starting in Miami.....Miami has a better record than we do......
Pat Watkins, Never got a chance, he was said as too tall, but if you remember when we had an injury and he started he was one of the best we have had back there since we lost Darren Woodson....Yes, after his injury he lost most of his ability as a safety and was moved into the Specialist role....

Alan Ball, I would like to know where you see him being crap also? Is he making the plays we want him too? No, but he is doing what you just said in your last post. "Playing through his lumps"
No one said Alan Ball was going to be a Pro Bowler in his first year starting, just like all of those Patriots you just named won't be Pro Bowlers..

I guess what is funny to me is you like it when Patriots players, "play through their lumps" but when it is one of the guys on our team he is regarded as crap... Look at Roy Williams Last Year, he played like crap, everyone here hated him, every Cowboys fan hated him, we all couldn't wait for Dez to replace him....Now look who is scoring all of our touchdowns lately?

If you are all calling this season a wash, which it probably is, but I am holding out hope for some reason, then ya, we need to put some guys in situations that will let us know what we have....That doesn't mean you scrap the guys you have now, I have been on teams and seen teams that do this, you hurt your team more by doing this than you help it for the future.

What happens when we put Sean Lee out there and He blows up? THen you put Jason Williams out there and He blows up? Do you keep Brooking, James, Lee and Williams? Do you trade them? Do you cut them? What if they are all 4 playing on Fire? What if they all 4 suck?

Let them practice and see who has the ability, get guys reps in games if they aren't close (Which all of ours have been) and see what you have that way.

What we are doing personel wise? I would disagree
What we are doing Coaching wise? I would Agree
What we are doing as an Origanization? I would Agree
What we are doing from wins? I would Agree

My biggest issue for this team is your Offensive Coordinator.

Our Defense has been very solid despite what anyone wants to say, look at the field position they have had every drive and tell me you expect them to stop every play. We don't have the takeaways no, but how are you going to get a ton of take aways when the offense only has to go a short distance to score.....Look at Time of Possession, it doesn't take oppossing teams very long to score, that isn't because of the defense "sucking" that is because we put them in horrible position.

Jason Garrett needs to go and we need to get a guy with an actual football brain. Where has Jason Witten been all year? We don't throw passes to him anymore? We throw 15 swing passes to our backs instead? I am not sure but I would take Witten over any of our Backs any day. We have Miles Austin, Dez Bryant, Roy Williams. You can't tell me with those 3, Witten and a Back that someone isn't going to be open. If I have a problem with a Player it is the decision making of Romo, but I feel like he is handcuffed by the play calls.

He has a habit of doing stupid things such as generating pointless penalties and biting on play-action. He was burnt more than a few times this year on long passes downfield.

Suck is a strong word...
He wouldn't have played in college if he "sucked"
He wouldn't have made the team as a 7th round pick if he "sucked"
They wouldn't have kept him and moved him to safety if he "sucked"

I'm not going to argue that he does get beat, because he obviously does. He obviously makes mistakes, but as D pointed out, every player has made a number of mistakes in their playing careers. You can't tell me that even Hall of Famers haven't made mistakes, they just make less of them.

Pat McQuistan, you call crap, is starting in Miami.....Miami has a better record than we do......
Pat Watkins, Never got a chance, he was said as too tall, but if you remember when we had an injury and he started he was one of the best we have had back there since we lost Darren Woodson....Yes, after his injury he lost most of his ability as a safety and was moved into the Specialist role....

Alan Ball, I would like to know where you see him being crap also? Is he making the plays we want him too? No, but he is doing what you just said in your last post. "Playing through his lumps"
No one said Alan Ball was going to be a Pro Bowler in his first year starting, just like all of those Patriots you just named won't be Pro Bowlers..

I guess what is funny to me is you like it when Patriots players, "play through their lumps" but when it is one of the guys on our team he is regarded as crap... Look at Roy Williams Last Year, he played like crap, everyone here hated him, every Cowboys fan hated him, we all couldn't wait for Dez to replace him....Now look who is scoring all of our touchdowns lately?

If you are all calling this season a wash, which it probably is, but I am holding out hope for some reason, then ya, we need to put some guys in situations that will let us know what we have....That doesn't mean you scrap the guys you have now, I have been on teams and seen teams that do this, you hurt your team more by doing this than you help it for the future.

What happens when we put Sean Lee out there and He blows up? THen you put Jason Williams out there and He blows up? Do you keep Brooking, James, Lee and Williams? Do you trade them? Do you cut them? What if they are all 4 playing on Fire? What if they all 4 suck?

Let them practice and see who has the ability, get guys reps in games if they aren't close (Which all of ours have been) and see what you have that way.

OK. Some good point and some bad. Pat McQuistan is on Miami and they're good so he's good? That's a waaaaaay too generalist approach to it. Bad example. Pat Watkins the best since Darren Woodson? I would never ever put the two names in the same sentence.

Alan Ball taking his lumps.... mabye that is a good point. Maybe I can wait it out a little more to see if he can work his way out of it.

Holding out hope for this season is a mistake. I mean... I have hope, sure. But I know heartache is the only thing waiting for me at the end of the tunnel. Our season ended last week. At the very slimmest of odds we'd need to be 8-8 to make the playoffs as a wildcard. Which 7 games left on the schedule look promising to you?

What happens when Sean Lee or Jason Williams gets playing time and blows up? Well, you don't give up on them immediately. That's for sure. I think that's what you're telling me is the only answer. It's not. The live bullets will go a long ways to getting them up to speed. The answer is that you put your vets out there again. Right now, Brooking and James get 95% of all the snaps. If someone wants to prove me wrong, then I'm willing to back off on saying they need to play more.

...and practice reps are hardly comparable to Game reps. They help, but you still need to see them on the field.

OK. Some good point and some bad. Pat McQuistan is on Miami and they're good so he's good? That's a waaaaaay too generalist approach to it. Bad example. Pat Watkins the best since Darren Woodson? I would never ever put the two names in the same sentence.

Alan Ball taking his lumps.... mabye that is a good point. Maybe I can wait it out a little more to see if he can work his way out of it.

Holding out hope for this season is a mistake. I mean... I have hope, sure. But I know heartache is the only thing waiting for me at the end of the tunnel. Our season ended last week. At the very slimmest of odds we'd need to be 8-8 to make the playoffs as a wildcard. Which 7 games left on the schedule look promising to you?

What happens when Sean Lee or Jason Williams gets playing time and blows up? Well, you don't give up on them immediately. That's for sure. I think that's what you're telling me is the only answer. It's not. The live bullets will go a long ways to getting them up to speed. The answer is that you put your vets out there again. Right now, Brooking and James get 95% of all the snaps. If someone wants to prove me wrong, then I'm willing to back off on saying they need to play more.

...and practice reps are hardly comparable to Game reps. They help, but you still need to see them on the field.

Didn't mean Pat is good, but he obviously is good enough to start on a team that is doing better than us. Just stating the fact that he is winning more than us at this point..

Watkins is no where near as good as Woody, trust me I know that, I miss Woodson and Williams being back there in a tandem, that was the best safties I have seen in a long time. But then again I am still young compared some here. But Watkins was in his prime better than anyone else we have put back there, that was my point.

I realize hope is dumb at this point, but I am a Cubs fan too, so call me optimistic haha.

Sorry, should have clarified, by blow up I meant in a good way. I don't disagree that they should be getting more chances in the games, but there must be something we drafted them for.....If we spent the time to draft them then you would think we would get them on the field...Heck we put Barbie on the field more than these guys so that worries me, what are we getting with them?

Pat McQuistan, you call crap, is starting in Miami.....Miami has a better record than we do......
Pat Watkins, Never got a chance, he was said as too tall, but if you remember when we had an injury and he started he was one of the best we have had back there since we lost Darren Woodson....Yes, after his injury he lost most of his ability as a safety and was moved into the Specialist role....

Alan Ball, I would like to know where you see him being crap also? Is he making the plays we want him too? No, but he is doing what you just said in your last post. "Playing through his lumps"
No one said Alan Ball was going to be a Pro Bowler in his first year starting, just like all of those Patriots you just named won't be Pro Bowlers..

I guess what is funny to me is you like it when Patriots players, "play through their lumps" but when it is one of the guys on our team he is regarded as crap... Look at Roy Williams Last Year, he played like crap, everyone here hated him, every Cowboys fan hated him, we all couldn't wait for Dez to replace him....Now look who is scoring all of our touchdowns lately?

If you are all calling this season a wash, which it probably is, but I am holding out hope for some reason, then ya, we need to put some guys in situations that will let us know what we have....That doesn't mean you scrap the guys you have now, I have been on teams and seen teams that do this, you hurt your team more by doing this than you help it for the future.

What happens when we put Sean Lee out there and He blows up? THen you put Jason Williams out there and He blows up? Do you keep Brooking, James, Lee and Williams? Do you trade them? Do you cut them? What if they are all 4 playing on Fire? What if they all 4 suck?

Let them practice and see who has the ability, get guys reps in games if they aren't close (Which all of ours have been) and see what you have that way.

He just put up a pretty good arguement, D-Unit.

But i'll try to put this in simpler terms that we can all agree on... Jason Williams and just his pure skills would do more for this defense than the aging, to put it lightly, keith brooking. He is awful.

Eventually, Wade needs to man up, and stop playing brooking because of his veteran status. Williams will bring more to this defense, right now.