The never-ending crisis of Zionism

After a video came out this week of two young Palestinian women slapping Israeli soldiers in the occupied village of Nabi Saleh, the Israeli leftwing group Peace Now tweeted that the soldiers were “heroes” for not responding violently, and issued a statement commending the soldiers for “demonstrating moral fortitude in the face of an attempted stunt to blacken Israel’s image.”

The day those women slapped the soldiers, their 14-year-old cousin was shot in the face by Israeli soldiers, blood pouring from his head “like a fountain,” and he had to undergo a lengthy operation.

Peace Now didn’t say anything about that.

Both young women were later arrested. The 16-year-old, Ahed Tamimi, faces a possibly lengthy sentence so that Israel can maintain its honor. Peace Now has not issued a statement about that.

I find this so dispiriting it is hard to put one word after another. But people should know: this is the world Zionism made. In which a leftwing organization cares about Jewish soldiers maintaining their honor and purity of arms; and has nothing to say about human rights violations against an occupied, subject people.

This is a story about Jewish identity being rooted in trauma; and how long will it take us to overcome that trauma?

The Palestinian experience today is a lot like the Jewish experience of pogroms 100 years ago and more in eastern Europe. As Jews were beaten and killed by marauding gangs with the blessing of the state — American Jews were not silent. Jews acted. Our leaders went to the White House. Important Jewish organizations were formed. The most powerful Jew in the world, the banker Jacob Schiff, supported the Russian revolution because he so hated the czar. The most brilliant Jew in the world, Franz Kafka came out of his office in Prague to see Jews being beaten and he went to Zionist meetings.

Today millions of Palestinians under occupation are being humiliated, deprived of freedom, their children given no chance to dream of a better life… and the leftwing Zionist organization says a 16-year-old Palestinian woman whose cousin was maimed and who slapped a soldier in the courtyard of her house is carrying out a stunt.

Peace Now urges separation: “the occupation corrodes Israel and its image, and will continue until Israel extricates itself from the Palestinians.”

Jewish separation from Palestinians is a delusion. It is like whites separating from blacks in the U.S. Israel is 20 percent non-Jewish; and it rules territories containing 5 million Palestinians; and though the world has resolved to “extricate” the Jews from the Arabs for 70 years now, the communities are intertwined more than ever, as Israeli Jews flood the West Bank and build more and more Jewish-only colonies.

These Jewish colonies and their military escort have inflicted endless trauma on the subject population. Ahed Tamimi is plainly traumatized; she has been subject to violence again and again in her short life.

Two years ago Ahed Tamimi famously tried to protect her brother from an Israeli soldier.

Ahed Tamimi, left, August 28, 2015. (Photo: Mohamad Torokman/Reuters

Two years later she is a young woman put in jail for slapping Israeli soldiers in her village.

Ahed Tamimi in military court this morning, from Tali Shapiro’s twitter feed.

And Peace Now cries out about the Israeli soldiers:

The occupation is destroying Israel!

And Americans for Peace Now, the strongest liberal Zionist group, retweets the statement.

The occupation surely is destroying Israel spiritually. But who is it actually destroying, Palestinians. Liberal and leftwing American Jews have known this forever.

Seven years ago video of a Palestinian boy running after his father as Israeli police dragged the father away for allegedly stealing water from Jewish colonists inside occupied territory gained international attention, and then too Israel said the footage was staged– and Peter Beinart wrote a book partially inspired by that moment, The Crisis of Zionism.

And nothing changes. The Jews stay in crisis, and the Palestinian children get older– and more traumatized.

The only question is why Jews do not act? Why, given this endless evidence of persecution, haven’t Beinart and Peace Now come out for something stronger to break the occupation? Does Palestinian human wreckage count for anything?

These liberals mock the idea of bearing witness. Americans for Peace Now is still on the board of AIPAC. It could quit tomorrow and send a message. It doesn’t. And I understand calls for partition. Nationalism is a dangerous force. But partition efforts have crumbled for 70 years, and the last 25 years of earnest effort have been a miserable failure. It is not enough to call for partition.

Palestinians like Ahed Tamimi have called on Americans to support boycott of Israel, the tool that has been used on countless occasions in our progressive history to stirring effect– lately over transgender access to bathrooms in North Carolina. But Jewish Voice for Peace is the only large Jewish group to support boycott, and JVP is renegade; a leader of the official Jewish community, Jeffrey Goldberg, smears JVP for having a “homicidal impulse” for Israel; and he gets away with it.

Because at some deep level older Jews are committed to the idea of a Jewish state as some historical compensation for the greatest trauma of the last century, the Holocaust. That’s an understandable desire, to gain some amendment from the world’s powers for the horrors of the last century.

But it comes down ultimately to a matter of selfishness in the formation of identity. How safe are we today in the west? Safe, and empowered. On what terms are we safe? Democratic principles of equality for all persons. Even Bannon and Trump’s indulgence of anti-Semites has done nothing to curb our powers.

That is the modern Jewish condition; but we cannot acknowledge it, let alone the Palestinians’ condition. No, we are traumatized; so we insist that a girl living right now in an occupied village with no future is somehow on an equal footing with a heavily-armed occupying soldier, who is there to keep her family from going to its spring and who when his three years is up and he’s done his one year decompensation smoking dope in India will go to the Technion and then participate in a tech startup while his little brother replaces him in armor.

This is so dispiriting it can’t be expressed in words. Every young American Jew who goes home for the new year needs to talk to their parents about the persecution of Ahed Tamimi. It is only happening with American Jews’ blessing.

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In which a leftwing organization cares about Jewish soldiers maintaining their honor and purity of arms; and has nothing to say about human rights violations against an occupied, subject people.
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I find this so dispiriting it is hard to put one word after another.

It is not a “leftwing” organization, it is a ZIONIST organization. Zionist. Cannot be “leftwing”. Cannot be anything decent.

Your honesty in seeing what is going on is to be commended but if you still cannot draw all the obvious conclusions (that do draw themselves, really) you are in line for a lot of “dispiriting”.

And something else:

American Jews were not silent. Jews acted. Our leaders went to the White House.

and the ones that had some success were the ZOA that lobbied to close US borders to European Jewish refugees.

And , with all respect, what the heck is all this “liberal Zionist” stuff. That is an aximoron if there ever was one. I sure wish Phil would banish that blabber from his writings.

As for the idea of a Jewish state as some historical compensation for the greatest trauma of the last century, the Holocaust. the idea of a Jewish State arose out of European ideas if race superiority and colonialism. It was a commercial enterprise as all colonial endeavors. It had ZIP to do with the Holocaust, which occurred much later after the colonial project. Just as the start of thevUS Civil War had little if anything to do with the efforts to end Slavery. That was an afterthought — tacked on much later to get public support in the North.

Phil knows this!

Until all Jews reject the secular Zionist project as inherent to self identity and understanding of Judaism, there is no future.

Btw…if looking at the long history of Hebrew/Judaic tribes ( who first adopted monotheism) the origins and early centers were not Jerusalem, but the hills of what is now Yemen and Oman — some of the most beautiful places on earth .

Unfortunately, secular zionism is in a state of symbiosis with religious zionism. That’s because the first cannot stand without the second. Which is why, as time goes on, more and more of the jews of Israel will turn religious, even as they deny it.

Why is jerusalem yours? ask a zionist or an Israeli. And they’ll answer: because we had a long history there. But so did the Palestinians, you may say. To which they’ll reply, but it was ours first. But how do you know it was yours 3000 years ago? because the tanach says so, comes the reply. Which is where religion intersects with the secular to become one not-so-holy ideology.

DANAA- “Unfortunately, secular zionism is in a state of symbiosis with religious zionism. That’s because the first cannot stand without the second. Which is why, as time goes on, more and more of the jews of Israel will turn religious, even as they deny it.”

Thank you! In the past, I have referred to this symbiosis as Judeo-Zionism, an expression some folks take umbrage to, sometimes resulting in my comments getting lost in moderation. Yet, I sincerely believe that symbiosis best describes our current reality. In Israel, secular Zionism, like most secular quasi religions, cannot withstand the refutation of empirical reality. Only by wrapping itself in the metaphysical ideology of Judaism can Zionism escape the consequence of unfulfilled expectations such as befell Marxism, diehard Marxists notwithstanding. In the US, the various competing strands of Judaism find common cause in support for Israel and Zionism. This support for a militarized Israel is consistent with support for our militarized empire, and provides defense against charges of socialist disloyalty to American capitalism. I would argue that Zionism was/is a significant contributor to turning Jewish social reformers into militaristic supporters of empire and war if sold as “humanitarian” intervention.

Judeo refers to the Judaic religion. Judeo-Zionism refers to the symbiotic relationship between Judaism and Zionism.

Gamal- “If you see what I mean, are they like Islamos?”

Your question is unclear. Do you mean “Islamo-XXXX?” If so, them “Islamo” would refer to the Islamic religion and “Islamo-XXXX” would refer to the symbiosis between Islam and XXXX. I would have thought that was clear, but perhaps not.

Gamal- “the strict Islamos.”

Do you enjoy talking to yourself? Apparently you have some point which you want to make, but you are being too clever by a half. You aren’t really asking me questions, are you?

I would argue that Zionism was/is a significant contributor to turning Jewish social reformers into militaristic supporters of empire and war if sold as “humanitarian” intervention.

I think you are onto something here, on a deeper level than usually discussed. The transmutation of a positive social impulse into its near-opposite through an alchemy that involves a secret ingredient – in this case – zionism, is a process that most humans are oblivious to. That’s because people can be so clever with words that they can successfully wrap empty space in a package that uses smart sounding verbiage as colorful packaging material to mask the fact that the content has been hollowed out. It is then that the medium becomes the message, so all it takes is mastering the medium to garble any message at all.

It is also possible that some people, through centuries of endless practice of theological sophistry about the nature of god, or Talmudic wisdoms,have become naturally adept at packaging thin air to make it appear substantial. the trick is to make the process and the end one and the same, by selling sophistry as the height of rationality.

So it is not so difficult for the social justice warriors to turn overnight into occupation/regime change advocates. Just as it is not so hard for modern day israelites to wrap themselves in the flags of the old rapaciously aggressive Israelites while denying the essence of that aggression, claiming both piety of purpose and purity of arms. heck, the old testament did just that, so it’s hardly a stretch to rinse and repeat for the consumption of modern sensibilities.

PS took too long to reply – hope you’ll still catch the drift (the draft?) though it be long after hannukah now.

And who better exemplifies this process than Alan Dershowitz? And when certain Trotskyists morphed into neocons, fundamentally they were selling the same thing in different packaging! Once again, I am in substantial agreement with everything you have said.

on December 28, 2017, 9:33 pm

So many of us are angered by the term liberal Zionist – I too wish it would fall into disuse. It clarifies nothing and smells of deciept.

Maghlawatan: It is trauma. Zionism said you can move to Palestine and start over and there will be no trauma. […]

Russia is also a mess because of ww2 trauma.
—————————————————

Terrible analogy.

Russians see themselves as proud victors in WWII– not eternal victims. The lesson: fascism is evil– not the whole world is against us.

For most living Russians, the real trauma occurred in the 1990’s—the deliberate social destruction, pillaging and plundering –the massive suffering and death– that followed the dismantling of the Soviet Union and the neoliberal “shock therapy” so glorified in “the West”.

The book touches on topics that were taboo during the Soviet period and have once again been excised from Putin’s Russia: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, by which Stalin and Hitler carved up Europe, the executions of deserters and the psychological effects of war for years to come. Her subjects recall sweaty nightmares, grinding teeth, short tempers and an inability to see forests without thinking of twisted bodies in shallow graves.

We thought we’d leave communism behind and everything would turn out fine. But it turns out you can’t leave this and become free, because these people don’t understand what freedom is.”

Ukrainians were blamed for the misery and subjected to harsh requisitions and reprisals that channeled starvation on to their territory, whereas Soviet citizens as a whole were told that collectivization was a grand success hindered only by nationalists and saboteurs.

It was collectivization, along with World War II (known as the “Great Fatherland War”), that created the Soviet Union that people of Alexievich’s generation experienced. Both were calamities that were covered in beautiful myths, myths that worked in part because people wanted individual suffering and death to have meaning. Collectivization was said, in retrospect, to have been necessary for victory in war, and victory in war was taken to demonstrate the legitimacy of the system as such.

When we confront, today, the myth of the Great Fatherland War and of Stalin as a good manager, we are hearing not the echoes of the events themselves, but of the memory campaign of the 1970s.

In the towns of the western Soviet Union that Alexievich knew best, urban life was not simply a novelty for some, but a novelty for almost everyone, since prewar urban classes had been destroyed by war, Holocaust, and deportation
Minsk was (and remains) a capital of Soviet nostalgia, where the straw of wartime suffering is spun into the gold of political meaning. No Soviet republic suffered more from the war than Belarus, and its partisans and its “hero cities” became the loci of the cult of remembrance.

She also very quickly explained that the fault lay not with one man but with the experiences of Soviet generations, now reworked for new wars. When she listed the fake descriptions of events in Ukraine in the Russian media, she spoke of Russian society as a “collective Putin.” As she put it, “Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are.”

As long as Zionism is a never-ending crisis, Judaism and Jewishness will be in crisis. One of its own making, too. That consumes all of Judaism’s resources as a religion. One that sets Jews against other people.

“As long as Zionism is a never-ending crisis, Judaism and Jewishness will be in crisis. One of its own making, too. That consumes all of Judaism’s resources as a religion. One that sets Jews against other people.”

Nice try with the April Fool’s joke. Heck it ain’t even January 1st. A Merry Cratzinmir to you and your monkey Jimmy North and to your founding anti-Semite Phil Weiss.

American Jews are ignorant about the reality of Israel. Most Israeli Jews are Sephardi and the rest are mostly 4th generation descendants of Shoah survivors.

US Jews were absorbed into a stable society. The US assimilated very few Holocaust survivors. Israeli Judaism is a mixture of ignorance and trauma.
US Judaism by comparison is coherent and generally cultured.

Most Israeli Jews are Sephardi and the rest are mostly 4th generation descendants of Shoah survivors.

Maghlawatan, you are pitifully ill-informed. The Sefardí are certainly not a large chunk of the Zionist invaders; in numbers they trail way behind the Arab Jews, the Yiddisch-speaking East Europeans and possibly behind the Germans and some other groups, too.

Also, if by Shoah you mean the 1940s genocide it hasn’t been 100-120 years yet.

Not only you don’t seem to ever think twice before parading your ignorance, Maghlawatan, you also seem to generally adopt whatever trendy BS the Zionists push on the unaware.
Sefardís are of Spanish origin and still Spanish-speaking except for some of the latest generation. Confusing them with Arab Jews is an intentional propaganda effort by the Zionists.

To which you are contributing. “Non-Ashkenazi” my a$$. A big, undifferentiated mass of unwashed Southerners in the service of the Western (well, not so Western, but passim) superior brain, eh?

Who gives a flying flup what the hell anything means in the propaganda language of the genocidal invaders? “Israel” indeed. Who the fuck appointed you to redefine age-old concepts? Have you ever really tried to learn?

Besides, if you buy every Bull Sh|t sold by Zionist propaganda like you do this one, I’m sure you must also buy the one about Lebensraum and no-negotiating negotiations and so on. Clown on, I’m sure your ignorant repetition of Z chat will endear you to many.

“The 16-year-old, Ahed Tamimi, faces a possibly lengthy sentence so that Israel can maintain its honor.”

What honour? Do those cowardly yahoos even have the capacity to grasp what the word “honour” means? Hint: no, it does not mean firing a live bullet into their targets’ faces, or into their genitals, or into the belly of pregnant women*, or shooting disabled Resistance fighters, or bombing Palestinian homes from the clear blue, unopposed by anyone, skies… *Does anyone remember the dizzyingly “honourable” – “Two for the price of one” line on the soldatens’ t-shirts?

“Peace Now urges separation: “the occupation corrodes Israel and its image, and will continue until Israel extricates itself from the Palestinians.”

Maybe ghetto-israel should forget about the “image” thing since it is, by now, together with its PR machine, a 70-y/o failure, and join the rest of the world in considering the reality.
Re the “extrication” — as suggested elsewhere on MW there is the Jewish Autonomous Region and its undisputed capital, Birobidjan, that are still available and guarantee full extrication from the Palestinians and, bonus!, Palestine.

It is NOT the cruel criminal occupation which is destroying the Zionist state spiritually.

Israel was founded in the spiritual and moral gutter;
decades before it’s self-proclaimed birth (and ever since) mired in criminal violence and terrorism against the Palestinians.
The appalling cruelty continues to this very day, with the shameful connivance of the Jewish community outside of Israel, and the sniveling governments in the west (UN resolution condemning US decision on Jerusalem – Canada abstains (shame and desolation).

Ahed Tamimi is a saint, in radical contrast to the miserable thugs who torment her.

History will record the year 2017 (when Netanyahu and Trump jumped in bed together) as the beginning of Israel’s rapid slide into isolation and disrepute. The world is increasingly disgusted with and enraged at its accelerating fascistic behaviour. The evidence is overwhelming.

At this time it is appropriate to recall just one example of the horrors perpetrated by Zionists i.e., the dispossession and expulsion by means of military might, several massacres, mass rape and intimidation of at least 800,000 (according to Walter Eytan, then Director General of the Israeli Foreign Ministry) essentially defenseless Palestinians between late 1947 and the end of 1948.

What actually happened in Palestine in 1947 and 1948 was described by eye-witness Nathan Chofshi, a Jewish immigrant from Russia who had arrived in Palestine in 1908 in the same group as David Ben-Gurion: “…we old Jewish settlers in Palestine who witnessed the flight know how and in what manner we, Jews, forced the Arabs to leave cities and villages. It is enough to cite the cities of Jaffa, Lydda, Ramle, Beersheba, Acre from among numberless others.” (Jewish Newsletter, New York, February 9, 1959)

Chofshi was deeply ashamed of what his fellow Jews did to the Palestinians: “We came and turned the native Arabs into tragic refugees. And still we dare to slander and malign them, to besmirch their name. Instead of being deeply ashamed of what we did and of trying to undo some of the evil we committed…we justify our terrible acts and even attempt to glorify them.” Jewish Newsletter, February 9, 1959)

“History will record the year 2017 (when Netanyahu and Trump jumped in bed together) as the beginning of Israel’s rapid slide into isolation and disrepute”

Who exactly is the fool? Do have even a child’s grasp of how many times this statement/prediction had been made about Israel and its survival? By pundits and amateurs like you, racist bigoted idiots like so many here, the supposed well-meaning but uninformed, arab leaders, other world leaders, and even jews like Phil and max B. would not want to be by any of their deathbeds in the near or far future while they try to figure out why they were so wrong.

If Americans want to feel safe and regain their credibility and status globally then the only choice they have is to jettison the Criminal State of Israel. Israel these days is seen as committing war crimes on a daily basis, ignores ALL international laws and inflicts on Palestinians behavior that they themselves complained of during the holocaust. Israel lies and deceives and manipulates Americans like puppets and uses them for their own nefarious needs. Americans if they wish to be seen as humane and honest and part of the International Community needs to reject Israel and cease aiding and abetting it in committing its war crimes. To do otherwise will se America ostracized by the global community….something I do not want to see and something Americans need to seriously ponder on. America needs cleansing of the Israeli Lobby influence that holds its government hostage to Netanyahu and his unscrupulous cohorts.

A short while ago this agnostc came across a video of Luciano Pavarotti singing Schubert’s Ave Maria. Today, I should like to dedicate this emotionally resplendent hymn to a Jewish woman who knew terrible suffering, pain and loss to Ahed Tamimi and all the Palestinian girls and women who have to endure sadistic cruelty of a contemporary genocidal regime.

Correct. Only, our Zionist-led government has promised to take up any Zionist from Palestine in case heshe would be the rare case without a right to some other citizenship. Take heart, these are exceedingly few. On the other hand, we exported to the Zionist entity thousands and thousands of goons that we’ll have to reuptake when they come sniveling back. As just punishment on us for supporting them and not doing anything about it –voting, pitchforks, whatever.

It would seem that most Jews, also on the Left, understand that especially in the Middle East, Israel is up against a formidable enemy who has to be blamed for a lot of what has occured over the past 120 years. They also hold thoughts that the Palestinians and their Arab brothers will never accept a Jewish State. Maybe they have been listening to Palestinians talking in Arabic over the years? It’s another story of course with Leftist Jews who’s monthly income depends on finding ways to blame Zionists for every woe. Also true for those empty vessels who have found a cause to give their missable lives some meaning. And apparently most of the Jews who claim to be on the Left and are not taking action against Israel have found other meaningful ways to live their lives.

You just keep digging your hole deeper. The handwriting is on the wall.

Prophetic comments by five eminent Jews:

Then Secretary of State for India and the British cabinet’s only Jewish member, Lord Edwin Montagu’s response to Prime Minister Lloyd George following issuance of the illegal 1917 Balfour Declaration: “All my life I have been trying to get out of the ghetto. You want to force me back there.”

Henry Morgenthau Sr., renowned Jewish American and former U.S. Ambassador to Turkey, 1919: “Zionism is the most stupendous fallacy in Jewish history….The very fervour of my feeling for the oppressed of every race and every land, especially for the Jews, those of my own blood and faith, to whom I am bound by every tender tie, impels me to fight with all the greater force against this scheme, which my intelligence tells me can only lead them deeper into the mire of the past, while it professes to be leading them to the heights. Zionism is… a retrogression into the blackest error, and not progress toward the light.” (Quoted by Frank Epp, Whose Land is Palestine?, p. 261)

Asked to sign a petition supporting settlement of Jews in Palestine, Sigmund Freud declined: “I cannot…I do not think that Palestine could ever become a Jewish state….It would have seemed more sensible to me to establish a Jewish homeland on a less historically-burdened land….I can raise no sympathy at all for the misdirected piety which transforms a piece of a Herodian wall into a national relic, thereby offending the feelings of the natives.” (Letter to Dr. Chaim Koffler Keren HaYassod, Vienna: 2/26/30)

Albert Einstein, 1939: “There could be no greater calamity than a permanent discord between us and the Arab people…. Let us recall that in former times no people lived in greater friendship with us than the ancestors of these Arabs.”

Lessing J. Rosenwald, president of the American Council for Judaism, 1944: “The concept of a racial state – the Hitlerian concept- is repugnant to the civilized world, as witness the fearful global war in which we are involved. . . , I urge that we do nothing to set us back on the road to the past. To project at this time the creation of a Jewish state or commonwealth is to launch a singular innovation in world affairs which might well have incalculable consequences.”

Misterioso – If Sigmund Freud is really on record as having said in 1930 that “I do not think that Palestine could ever become a Jewish state…” – then you should erase him from your list of “prophetic comments. You should be aware of the fact that a Jewish state was established in Palestine in 1948.

You have given this exact same comment in the past. It’s not really clear why you think that the opinion of prominent people is relevant. There is no need for the approval or the agreement of others.

By the way, since you included Einstein in your list of prophets, you might find it interesting to learn that the good professor supported Zionism. He was one of the founders of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Misterioso,
A few comments and questions:
Lord Montagu was certainly an anti-Zionist who feared that the Jews in the West would lose their equal rights if a Jewish national home would be established. Didn’t happen , but a line was inserted in the Balfour Declaration to make sure.
Do you have a source for the “…out of the ghetto ” quote?

Henry Morgenthau Sr. opposed Zionism,and initially so did his son , Henry Mogenthau Jr. who served as FDR’s Sec. of the Treasury. In the wake of the Holocaust he became a strong supporter of Israel.

The quote from Einstein expresses concern as to the direction of Jewish-Arab relations. As we know, Einstein was a Zionist.

Nathan: “If Sigmund Freud is really on record as having said in 1930 that “I do not think that Palestine could ever become a Jewish state…” – then you should erase him from your list of “prophetic comments.”

Yes, he couldn’t imagine that Jews would be able to acquire their nationals goals through settler colonialism, terrorism, massacres war, expulsion, dispossession, denationalization and disenfranchisement when it comes to Palestine’s Nonjewish citizens.

Yes, Einstein had vocal and written criticisms of the reborn state of Israel. But, any cursory reading of Einstein’s biography would have informed the reader that he was an avid supporter of the Israeli state. Only the most desperate would grasp at straws to try and use luminaries like Einstein, Morganthau, Brandeis, and many others to discredit the overwhelming support for the creation of Israel.

Zionism cannot deliver what it promised.
Milk and honey is no longer available. The management reserves the right to replace it with shooting and crying.
Justice has been swapped for torture. Truth for mendacity.

|| Emet: It would seem that most Jews, also on the Left, understand that especially in the Middle East, Israel is up against a formidable enemy who has to be blamed for a lot of what has occured over the past 120 years. … ||

Setting aside for the moment your Zionist “murderers exist so it’s OK to rape” justification, who is this “formidable enemy” and for what multitude of things is s/he to blame?

Anyway, why are “most Jews” afraid of anything? Zionists insist that Israel is powerful and will last a Thousand Years.

|| … They also hold thoughts that the Palestinians and their Arab brothers will never accept a Jewish State. … ||

Makes sense: Palestinians and their “Arab brothers” shouldn’t have to accept the existence of a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine. No-one should have to accept the existence of any type of suprepmacist state anywhere in the world.

“And apparently most of the Jews who claim to be on the Left and are not taking action against Israel have found other meaningful ways to live their lives.”
Here in Portland we have a lot of “Jewish” academics very panicked about “fascism” but ironically, they seem to be talking about Israel. Here is Shane Burley in his latest on Truth Out.
“In keeping with Roger Griffin’s project to outline a key rhetorical definition for fascism, I offer one that, though seemingly universal, does have its own problems, as finding the perfect terminology to define all fascist movements may be a quest without end: “Inequality through mythological and essentialized identity” is an attempt to sum all of these threads up, hitting the various points that fascism uses to define itself.”
I especially like “essentialized identity”
Here is the link to the whole piece, which does a perfect job of describing Israel while accusing the “alt-right”of being fascists…..and never mentioning that ‘liter box in the middle east’http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/43006-what-is-fascism-an-excerpt-from-fascism-today-what-it-is-and-how-to-end-it

‘Liberal’ jews and ‘leftist’ jews rings hollow. These combined terms have no meaning. It seems that jews in israel, america and the rest of the world who say with their mouths they are against the occupation, are really only against it because it is ‘telegenically’ horrifying and nothing more. They seem to believe, in their heart of hearts, that palestine belongs to them and them alone. That they are God’s chosen and the rest of humanity can really just fuck off. Their silence is deafening. God bless Ahed, Nariman, Bassem and all of the Tamimi family.

It seems that jews in israel, america and the rest of the world who say with their mouths they are against the occupation, are really only against it because it is ‘telegenically’ horrifying and nothing more.

Thank you. For another reason, too. They know their comeuppance is due and try to ensure that everyone is brainwashed enough to accept the absurdity that their occupation is limited to post-67, post-48, whatever –insurance policy. And it’s not only Jews or only Zionists, either.

Israel doesn’t have to justify actions to prevent bloody-minded ‘Palestinians’ from destroying it, adopting whatever security measures necessary to protect its people. That’s nothing to do with Zionism as such – it is all about self-preservation, the right and entitlement of any sovereign nation dealing with enemies that are as implacable as ever.
Yet again there is nobody to negotiate with as Hamas and Fatah are bound to be at each other’s throats again sòon.Palestinian unity deal is collapsing

Neither the hostility of Palestinians towards Israel nor the inability of the Palestinians to avoid violent disagreement among themselves (if all that is true) constitutes a good reason for Israel not to state what exactly it would consider to be fair terms for a final arrangement. That would actually be the first step in negotiation. If there was no response that might be considered the fault of the other side. But it isn’t their fault that they have nothing to respond to.

In the same vein, and if you don’t mind the flippancy too strongly, it would be the proper thing to do for the wolves to define in advance how much of a lamb they intend to eat.

What, of all things on heaven and earth, would oblige Zionists to state their conditions or negotiate anything when the US is their b|tch, the resistance is totally disarmed and dead to all practical purposes, a puppet aboriginal police is firmly in place, all Europeans are fighting to be the first to lick stinky American bottom and even the Boycott organizations abroad are infiltrated and sometimes guided by “liberal” Zionists and “antisemitism” hunters?

What makes the Zionists so stupid as to respond to the victim when they are not really, really forced to?

‘Well’ says Big Wolf returning from the sheepfold looking well fed ‘how sad this persistent anti-lycist propaganda makes one! We are the reasonable animals here and it’s all the fault of those bloodthirsty herbivores. They keep bleating at each other, you know, when we want to discuss carnivore business. They don’t even understand that our ancestors were hunting in this area – where their dirty, weedy meadow (ugh!) is now – thousands of years ago when it was all beautiful and primeval. So it’s mine, all mine, I tell you. They make me sick – Well, not literally, since I eat a few when I have to. But they pain me as an animal of high moral standards. This I can prove by my obvious readiness to discuss with them some reduction in my food needs’. I may not believe a word of this but the majority of the audience applauds.
However strongly I hold my belief I need as many reasons as I can get. So I ask for him to support his claims to be reasonable by acting reasonably according to what are his own proclaimed standards. If he doesn’t it will perhaps become clearer that he is not a truthful beast. If he does, perhaps the way to better things may be opened up, who knows?

The aims of your request for a program statement have always been crystal clear, as is the fact that is it to be commended. All very good. One thing, though: we have been playing this game for give or take a hundred years; the Z, GB and US team has been exposed and worse very many times, often and regularly. Their credibility is at its lowest possible point ever. Short of a breakthrough in information reaching the public directly –like If Americans Knew taking over CNN, and/or a resignation of the dominant US parties, or a rise of the IQ level, the yield of this instrument is maxed out and definitely in the diminishing returns department.

Anyway, sorry for the digression but my question was: very good request. How, now, to make them respond to it when nothing is forcing them? Key word force.

“The ‘Palestinians’ are bloody-minded. Who are ‘Palestinians’? The native people of palestine, the Palestinians, are protecting their people and their land by any means necessary. The bloody zionists have WMDs at their fingertips and start shooting any time a Palestinian farts. Bitch, please.

“Yet again there is nobody to negotiate with as Hamas and Fatah are bound to be at each other’s throats again sòon.”

Sure Mayhem, whatever you say. That’s the zionist excuse du jour. And when Fatah and Hamas appear to be on one accord (those sneaking bastards) that makes israeli’s feel insecure, they’ll be sure to bomb the shit out of them again. Isn’t that the way it goes – the real protocol of the zionist entity? Then whine to the nations that they have no one to negotiate with (because they keep murdering them).

Maybe the Palestinians would not be so bloody minded if the Israeli’s were not stealing their land and possessions and bulldozing their houses and denying them water etc etc. Walk a mile in their shoes Mayhem and I dare say you would be bloody minded also. There is no legitmacy to what Israel is doing and absolutely no defence. It has everything to do with Zionism because it was Zionists like Herzl and Jabotinsky that created the Grand Plan of Greater Israel and ethnically cleansing Palestine for Israeli Jews exclusive use.

Hendrik Verwoerd, then prime minister of South Africa and the architect of South Africa’s apartheid policies, 1961: “Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state.” (Rand Daily Mail, November 23, 1961)

Jacobus Johannes Fouché, South African Minister of Defence during the apartheid era, compared the two states and said that Israel also practiced apartheid.
(Gideon Shimoni (1980). Jews and Zionism: The South African Experience 1910-1967. Cape Town: Oxford UP. pp. 310–336. ISBN 0195701798.

“Former Foreign Ministry director-general invokes South Africa comparisons. ‘Joint Israel-West Bank’ reality is an apartheid state”
EXCERPT: “Similarities between the ‘original apartheid’ as it was practiced in South Africa and the situation in ISRAEL [my emphasis] and the West Bank today ‘scream to the heavens,’ added [Alon] Liel, who was Israel’s ambassador in Pretoria from 1992 to 1994. There can be little doubt that the suffering of Palestinians is not less intense than that of blacks during apartheid-era South Africa, he asserted.” (Times of Israel, February 21, 2013)

In its 2015 Country Report on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, the U.S. Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor acknowledges the “institutional and societal discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel.” (U.S. Department of State, Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor)

“Construction, Not Destruction”
“While Israeli Arabs constitute 20 percent of the population, Arab communities’ jurisdictions occupy just 2.5 percent of the state’s land area, and the process of approving new construction in Arab towns takes decades.” (Haaretz Editorial, April 4, 2017)

One example of apartheid within Israel:
“Jewish town won’t let Arab build home on his own land ”
Excerpt: “Aadel Suad first came to the planning and construction committee of the Misgav Local Council in 1997. Suad, an educator, was seeking a construction permit to build a home on a plot of land he owns in the community of Mitzpeh Kamon. The reply he got, from a senior official on the committee, was a memorable one. ‘Don’t waste your time,’ he reportedly told Suad. ‘We’ll keep you waiting for 30 years.’” (Haaretz, 14 December 2009)

Ronnie Kasrils, a key player in the struggle against the former South African apartheid regime, minister for intelligence and a devout Jew: “The Palestinian minority in Israel has for decades been denied basic equality in health, education, housing and land possession, solely because it is not Jewish. The fact that this minority is allowed to vote hardly redresses the rampant injustice in all other basic human rights. They are excluded from the very definition of the ‘Jewish state’, and have virtually no influence on the laws, or political, social and economic policies. Hence, their similarity to the black South Africans [under apartheid]'”(The Guardian, 25 May 2005)

Shlomo Gazit, retired IDF Major General: “[Israel’s] legal system that enforces the law in a discriminatory way on the basis of national identity, is actually maintaining an apartheid regime.” (Haaretz, July 19, 2011)

Israel is the only country in the world that differentiates between citizenship and nationality, i.e., “Israeli” nationality does not exist, only Jews and non-Jews, and each citizen carries an appropriate identity card. While the implications of this absurdity for discrimination and racism against non-Jews are obvious, it has been upheld by Israel’s Supreme Court.

The effect of Israel’s blatantly racist “Citizenship Law” and more than fifty other restrictions Arab citizens have to endure is well expressed by writer and Knesset member, Ahmed Tibi, “…dutifully defining the state [of Israel] as ‘Jewish and democratic,’ ignores the fact that in practice ‘democratic’ refers to Jews, and the Arabs are nothing more than citizens without citizenship.” (Ma’ariv, 1.6.2005)

@jackdoff
“I interact with more Arabs in a day, than you do in a year.”

You interact. Sounds creepy, but maybe that’s just the way you interact here. Does your interaction occur in the light of day or do you exact your price “in the dark, without witnesses and cameras”. Wrong creep you say? sorry. ya’ll sound alike to me.

And according to Mayhem the Palesinians, too, have the right to do the same to bloody-minded ‘Jews’ that they did to Palestinians since 1948 and to destroy Palestine. Am I right, Mayhem?

By the way. Who is more bloody-minded? Bloody-minded Jews or bloody-minded Palestians? Factors could be massacres, , dispossession, destruction of more than 400 villages, aquisition of territory through war, achievement of a majority through massacres, expulsion, denationalization and revoking residency rights; illegal annexation, occupation, settling in occupied territories, stealing recoures like water and farming land, confiscating land, kidnapping and torturing children … etc. At last but not least: Kill ratio.

Uhh….I live in Israel and I interact with more Arabs in a day, than you do in a year, Amigo.

That’s pretty interesting Jackdaw, but do tell us more.

How would you characterize the interactions? Are they social? Commercial? Professional?

Are they friendly? Do you speak to them, the Arabs (Palestinians)? In Arabic, or are they forced to speak to you in Hebrew?

Are there guns involved? That must be very frightening, heavily armed Arabs(Palestinians).

Are there rubber bullets and tear gas and armoured bulldozers involved in your interactions?

Shackles and truncheons perhaps?

Perhaps you greet them from the air, from a sniper’s tower, or from an attack helicopter?

Please help us understand all the interactions you have with the Arabs (Palestinians), which are so important in establishing understanding, tolerance and trust between peoples; essential in the search for peace and justice in Palestine.

amigo,
I was mainly responding to lonely rico.
The Palestinian population in Israel is around 1.8 million, and yes, they mostly live peacefully. I admit that I’m not sure what “meaningful” means. How could any life be meaningless?

I’m not an invader. No Jew is an invader in the Jewish historic homeland . And I’m sure not an “illegal squatter”.

Geographic Palestine is not the “historic homeland” of every person in the world who chooses to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish.

The “Jewish State” of Israel – either within its / Partition borders or colonially and (war) criminally outside of its / Partition borders – is not the “historic homeland” of every person in the world who chooses to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish.

So who should I believe, Johnny S “the Lefttits”who suggests that he doesn’t touch guns (except an occasional lynching chair) or mine own lying eyes that read that any and all “immigrant” invaders, even from Brooklyn, are owned by the army for the rest of their natural life, or at least until old and decrepit? In more pillpulling terms, IF Johnny declares himself a “secular lefttits” AND Johnny publicly despises the Ultra-Orthodox AND said Ultra-Orthodox are the only ones to be exempted from “serving” in the Wehrm… pardon Zionist entity army THEN Johnny has his gun and is a soldier.

A soldier like the entire Master-Race adult population of occupied Palestine. And that does cancel a number of protected statuses in the Geneva Conventions. Not to forget that the Ultra-Orthodox squatting over the Green Line against the request of their own imperial masters are organized in armed militias, but that might be another topic.

First, you think that modern Jews are biological descendants of the Jews who lived in Palestine in, say, 55BC.

Second, you think this connection makes Palestine the “historic homeland” of all Jews.

Third, you think a person who goes to live in the “historic homeland” of his ancestors has a moral right to do so and cannot be classed as an invader.

In the nineteenth century a large number of Welsh people migrated to the Americas and to Australia. Some of them set up specifically Welsh colonies, while others mingled with the other migrants. Some still speak Welsh, eat bara brith, and hold eisteddfoddau. Others know only English or Spanish.

Is Wales their “historic homeland”?
Do they have a moral right to go to live in Wales?
Suppose they all began pouring into Wales, throwing their weight about, and taking over the country. Would the current residents of the Rhondda be mistaken in regarding them as invaders?

RoHa: “Is Wales their “historic homeland”?
Do they have a moral right to go to live in Wales?
Suppose they all began pouring into Wales, throwing their weight about, and taking over the country. Would the current residents of the Rhondda be mistaken in regarding them as invaders?”

jon s is not programmed to answer questions which indirectly prove that Zionist claims and arguments are utter nonsense. Especially not, if you ask him if Palestinians have exact the same claims and rights. He is just programmed to repeat them over and over again. Doesn’t cost much brain and is adapted to Israel’s low average IQ.

RoHa,
I don’t know about “biological descendants”. Over the centuries there were invasions, migrations, conversions, intermarriages…I can trace my ancestry back to certain 19th century rabbis,there are family rumors going a bit further back, but before that , back to the 6th century BCE–who would claim to know? And who cares? Only someone interested in notions of “racial purity” and “bloodlines”, and I’m not. A people’s identity, a people’s history and memory and traditions, are based on a lot more.
As to your analogy, I would say that if you find another example of a people who, after losing political sovereignty and demographic majority in their historic homeland
• Maintained a continuous presence in said homeland, albeit as a minority.
• Continued , fom their homeland, to produce significant contributions to their religion and culture.
• Preserved the memory of the homeland in customs and traditions, in their studies and their poetry, prayed for a return to the homeland at least three times a day.
• Were often victims of persecutions in their countries of residence, leading to a horrific genocide in which one third of the defenseless people were annihilated.
• Returned to their homeland with peaceful intentions, without intending to disposes the existing native population.

….so if you find a similar situation somewhere in the world, let me know, and I’ll consider supporting those people.

Talkback, in response:
I’ve always supported Palestinian rights.
Yes , my ascendants arrived before the mandate. As to consent of the native population, no such consent was obtained, any more than in North and South America, Australia and New Zealand…

“As to consent of the native population, no such consent was obtained, any more than in North and South America, Australia and New Zealand…” “Jon s”

ROTFLMSJAO!!! That’s right “Jon s”, the social and historical forces compelling the Zionists to take and enabling them to keep Palestine are just as tremendous and motivating as the ones compelling the colonization and settlement of “North and South America Australia and New Zealand”

“Yes , my ascendants arrived before the mandate.”

With a quick trip to West Hartford, Conn. USA to have you and make sure you are an American citizen? Ho-kay.

“I’m not an invader, I live in my people’s historic homeland. No Jew is an invader in the Jewish homeland.” “Jon s”

Oh here’s a great one:

“The Jews are not foreigners or invaders in Israel because you’re not an invader in your homeland. It’s not as if the Jews were in the country in ancient times, and then left and forgot about it and then suddenly in the 19th century it occurred to them to manufacture a claim to it. In fact there was a continuous Jewish presence in Israel –albeit as a minority- throughout the centuries between the 2nd Temple period and the advent of Zionism, and that Jewish presence in the country played a significant role in the Jewish world. Moreover, Jews everywhere continuously expressed yearnings for a return to the land.
Whether or not Jews today are biologically descendents of the Jews of antiquity is irrelevant.” “Jon s”

Now, I ask you, can you not see “Jon s” wholehearted support of Palestinian rights?

“Whether or not Jews today are biologically descendents (sic) of the Jews of antiquity is irrelevant.”

As far as I can tell, the only Palestinian rights you have always supported are:
– the right of Palestinians to be driven from their homes and lands to make way for a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”;
– the right of Palestinian refugees from Israel not to return to their homes and lands;
– the right of Palestinian Israelis to live as second-class citizens in a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”; and
– the right of Palestinians not to hold Zionist (war) criminals accountable for their past and on-going (war) crimes.

You have always supported Zionist “peace”, but never justice, accountability and equality.

Like I said: “jon s is not programmed to answer questions which indirectly prove that Zionist claims and arguments are utter nonsense. Especially not, if you ask him if Palestinians have EXACT THE SAME CLAIMS AND RIGHTS.”

jon s: “Yes , my ascendants arrived before the mandate.

Well, in this case they automatically became citizen of Palestine when Palestinians became a constitutive people in 1925. And you – even according to the PLO’s redefinition of Palestinian citizenship – have the right to be(come) a Palestinian citizen. It means that you are not an invader. It doesn’t mean that you don’t support invaders. Cause you claim that “No Jew is an invader in the Jewish historic homeland.” which is of course utter nonsense, cause it would mean that everyone who has converted to Judaism or is a descendant of converts could claim that her or his “historical homeland” is in Palestine and has therfore the right to settle there without the majority consent of its mixed native population, including those that your Apartheid Junta keeps expelled to maintain Jewish dominance. And it still wouldn’t mean that s/he ever was a citizen of Palestine pre 1948 who had the right to determine Palestine’s future. More than half of the Jews in 1948 weren’t.

jon s: “As to consent of the native population, no such consent was obtained, any more than in North and South America, Australia and New Zealand…”

Exactly. The creation of Israel in the post Nazi era was a crime against the right to self determination of the colonized native population. While the whole world was heading for post-colonialization after 1919 and with the introduction of the mandate system Zionist colonialism went into the opposite direction. It just shows how backwarded uncivilized and morally corrupted Zionist settler colonialism and its supporters are. They have to refer to similar crimes that happened centuries ago as if this could legitimize their own in modern times. Even when it comes to the rights of an occupied population Israel goes back to Hague Law of 1907 instead of applying the Geneva Conventions.

And Jews never became a constitutive people and never automatically transfered their nationality to everyone who was a citizen of Palestine and habitually resident. Instead they adopted a similar approach like Nazi Germany and differentiate between “nationals” (aka Jews) who have full citizenship rights (like citizens in other countries) and “citizens” which do not. They even perveted the term “citizen” do distract from Israel’s genuine institutionalized racism and Apartheid character.

So. No consent, no constitutive people, no equal rights. And you call Israel a “democracy”?

That is exacly what he claims. If crimes against humanity like settler colonialism were committed in other case in the age of colonialization then Jews have the right to do the same in post colonial times. I wonder what his attitude is regarding genocide. Netanyahu would probably point to the bible.

RoHa: “So this “historic homeland” stuff applies when a “people” fulfills a whole list of conditions.

And the only “people” which fulfills those conditions just happens to be the Jews.

Who’d have thunk it?”

Yep, the only thing that is missing is that Jews write down these conditions and then claim that these were God’s own words. That would be even more authorative when it comes to the Zionist interpretation of international and human rights law.

Jon s: “• Maintained a continuous presence in said homeland, albeit as a minority.”
• Continued , fom their homeland, to produce significant contributions to their religion and culture.
• Preserved the memory of the homeland in customs and traditions, in their studies and their poetry, prayed for a return to the homeland at least three times a day.
• Were often victims of persecutions in their countries of residence, leading to a horrific genocide in which one third of the defenseless people were annihilated.
• Returned to their homeland with peaceful intentions, without intending to disposes the existing native population.

….so if you find a similar situation somewhere in the world, let me know, and I’ll consider supporting those people.”

ROFL. Sure. Why didn’t you just say that you only support Jews?

There’s NOTHING universal about your description. NOTHING humane which could be applied to all humans. Like for example:

I support every native’s right to return to her or his country. I don’t support to keep refugees expelled.

And btw. “Returned”? Which Jew who entered Palestine under British gun left and then returned? Do all Christians have a right to “return” to “their homeland”?

Re: “… with peaceful intentions without intending to to disposess the existing native population”

Who are you trying to fool, Jon s? Zionism has always been about taking over the whole of Palestine and putting it under Jewish domination.

Allready in 1891, the Zionist Ahad Ha’am: “[They] understand very well, what we are doing and what what we are aiming at.”

“And the only “people” which fulfills those conditions just happens to be the Jews.”

And “RoHa” has hit the bulls-eye, rung the bell, put the ring over the neck of the bottle, and is entitled to this lovely “Jews sui generis” lapel button! Mention promo code 1948 and get two for the price of one. (Just pay separate S&H.)

I got stuck with a lot of them, they wouldn’t sell. Nobody except you, and a commenter named “Froggy” expressed any interest.
Say, could I throw in a “No trauma ‘long us, boss!” bumper-sticker or two? A box?

Why Jews flee to Europe (or at least half of it)
By Doug Saunders,
Globe and Mail, November 16, 2013

EXCERPTS:
“Have you heard about Europe’s Jewish exodus? Amid growing tensions and tough economic conditions, tens of thousands of educated middle-class Jews are fleeing every year – not out of the continent, but rather from Israel into Europe, and especially to Germany, which has become the chief destination (after the United States) for the half-million Israelis who have left the country amid its much-discussed ‘brain drain.’

“This has taken both Israelis and many Europeans by surprise – and offended some Israeli leaders. Last month, Foreign Minister Yair Lapid, during a visit to Budapest, took to Facebook to denounce the growing wave of Europe-bound Jews who have become known in the Israeli media as the New Yordim (emigrants, or literally, ‘fallen’).”

“European countries are seen by Israelis as stable, egalitarian and safe, while in an Israel governed by hard-line regimes, the zealots and the Orthodox seem destined to prevail. ‘With all due respect,’ Jerusalem Post columnist Susan Hatis Rolef recently wrote, ‘I think it is physically safer for a Jew to live in Berlin these days than in Jerusalem, though I do not belittle the emotional difficulty involved for a Jew to do so, given the not-too-distant history.’”

“She listed the reasons for the exodus: ‘loss of hope that peace will ever prevail … discomfort with the lack of determination of Israel’s leaders to make a serious effort to separate religion and state … and the feeling that life in Israel frequently feels like life in a pressure cooker.’”

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.806869
EXCERPT:
“More Israelis Left Israel Than Moved Back in Six Year Record. 16,700 left and 8,500 came back in 2015, the first year since 2009 that more Israelis exited than returned.” By Lior Dattel. Aug 15, 2017, Haaretz.

Also, support for Israel is in decline in the U.S., especially among all important youth:

“Support for Israel on Campus Drops by ‘Devastating’ 27%: Study” – The Forward, June 21/17

“The Brand Israel Group, a coalition of volunteer advertising and marketing specialists, has released a survey that shows a significant decrease in Israel’s approval rating among Americans.

“’The future of America no longer believe that Israel shares their values. This is huge! Devastating,’ Fern Oppenheim, a co-founder of BIG, told The Times of Israel. While approval of Israel among American college students dropped 27% between the group’s 2010 and 2016 surveys, Israel’s approval rating among all Americans dropped 14 points, from 76% to 62%.”

Misterioso – If the Israelis are leaving the country in massive numbers, then all should be well in the anti-Israel alternative reality. The State of Israel will fade away, and we’ll all have to find a different debating club to keep us busy. Anyway, despite the exodus to Europe and America, Israel is still having an incredible population explosion. Everyone is leaving, obviously, but strangely the traffic jams haven’t heard the news.

I find it quite funny that you tell us that only 62% of the Americans approve of Israel. The approval of the Americans is really not too important. People can sit around the table on Christmas and say that they like Israel or they dislike Israel, and no one is going to lose any sleep over it. However, since you find it important, perhaps you should take note of the fact that 62% is a nice majority. So, most people will be saying at their festive meal that they approve of Israel (but please don’t lose a night’s sleep over it because it doesn’t really make any difference anyway).

Definition: This entry includes the figure for the difference between the number of persons entering and leaving a country during the year per 1,000 persons (based on midyear population). An excess of persons entering the country is referred to as net immigration (e.g., 3.56 migrants/1,000 population); an excess of persons leaving the country as net emigration (e.g., -9.26 migrants/1,000 population). The net migration rate indicates the contribution of migration to the overall level of population change.

“Israel will have the highest population density in the Western world,” Sergio DellaPergola, a preeminent Israeli demographer and member of the report’s steering committee, told JTA. “Interestingly, haredim will overtake Arabs as the largest minority.

The Central Bureau of Statistics revised upward its previous projection, made in 2012, that the population will reach 15.5 million in 2059, with 4.5 million haredim.DellaPergola said the bureau had wrongly assumed Israel’s fertility rate would continue to decline.

[…}Israel is growing rapidly mostly because of its birth rate, which DellaPergola said is the highest of the world’s 100 most developed countries… [emphasis added]

—————————————————

Circular migration–good for Israel.

According to public opinion polls, the main motives for leaving Israel have not been the political and security situation, but include desire for higher living standards, pursuit of work opportunities and/or professional advancement, and higher education. Many Israelis with degrees in scientific or engineering fields have emigrated abroad, largely due to lack of job opportunities. From Israel’s establishment in May 1948 to December 2006, about 400,000 doctors and academics left Israel. In 2009, Israel’s Council for Higher Education informed the Knesset’s Education Committee that 25% of Israel’s academics were living overseas, and that Israel had the highest human capital flight rate in the world.

However, an OECD estimate put the highly educated Israeli emigrant rate at 5.3 per 1,000 highly educated Israelis, meaning that Israel actually retains more of its highly educated population than many other developed countries.

In addition, the majority of Israelis who emigrate eventually return after extended periods abroad . In 2007, the Israeli government began a programme to encourage Israelis living abroad to return; since then, the number of returning Israelis has doubled, and in 2010, Israeli expatriates, including academics, researchers, technical professionals, and business managers, began returning in record numbers. Israel launched additional programmes to open new opportunities in scientific fields to encourage Israeli scientists and researchers living abroad to return home.

These programmes have since succeeded in luring many Israeli scientists back home. [emphasis added]

According to demographer Pini Herman, this circular migration has been an economic boon to Israel. Israel does not have the technological, academic, and other infrastructural resources to absorb its disproportionate number of highly trained and skilled population, second only to the United States.

As a result, many Israelis have worked overseas for extended periods of time. Upon their return, they have often attracted or repatriated with them to Israel new infrastructure, such as that provided by companies like as Intel, Google, Microsoft, and IBM. [42] [emphasis added]

Article from 2017:
“More Israelis left Israel than moved back in six year record
16,700 left and 8,500 came back in 2015, in first year since 2009 that more Israelis exited than returned. …
The latest figures for the immigration balance are for 2015 because the statistics bureau figures for immigration only include Israelis who have lived outside of Israel for a continuous period of one year or more, so they have to wait a full year to do the calculations. ”https://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/.premium-1.806869

1 million Israeli Jews have left Disneyland. The vast majority have transferable skills and dont want to be ruled by the Orthodox/settler combo.
Israel needs lefty progressive Jews to.pay for things.
West Jerusalem is a good example. The lefty progressive Jews have mostly moved out and left the Orthodox to their veneration of crap.

Misterioso quoted Doug Saunders asserting that “ tens of thousands of educated middle-class Jews are fleeing every year – not out of the continent, but rather from Israel into Europe…”

That may be true (perhaps exaggerated), but the site you and Misterioso link to shows net migration for the years 1995 through 2100 (historical and forecast data) and 2015 is the only year with a negative number. Given that various sources are estimating a return to a positive net migration rate, why would one would want to single out 2015 and draw conclusions from that limited data point?

In any case, the population of Israel is increasing, and apparently becoming less secular. If more educated, secular Israelis leave, doesn’t that just mean a nuclear-armed, militaristic Israel becoming even more right-wing and bellicose?

Hughes,
What about Olmert’s plan?
““I started off by presenting the principles of the proposed arrangement. After I finished, President Mahmoud Abbas took a deep sigh and asked to see the map that I prepared. Never had an Israeli prime minister presented such a detailed, coherent position for resolution of the conflict, as was introduced on that day. … Abbas said that he couldn’t decide immediately and that he needed time. I told him that he was making a mistake, a historic mistake. ‘Take the pen and sign right now. You will never receive a fairer or more equitable offer again. Don’t hesitate.’”

The shocked Abbas answered, as Olmert writes, “‘Give me a few days. I am not familiar with maps. I propose that tomorrow, we meet with two experts. If they’ll tell me that everything is OK, we can sign.’ Since then I haven’t seen Abbas, the map remained with me.”

Never had an Israeli prime minister presented such a detailed, coherent position for resolution ….There was no counter to the proposal.

oh that’s a bunch of hogwash. i heard olmert tell his story in SF. he practically bragged about dangling a map from his hand across the table from abbas, he got a laugh out of it too. wouldn’t even give abbas a copy of the map. so abbas had to draw it by hand on a napkin!

and then i went to see the Maen Rashid Areikat, former chief of the PLO Delegation, again at a world affairs council in SF a week later, and they most definitely did respond with a proposal. one that olmert later claimed he never received.

this olmert proposal was infamous for the “napkin map”. please, you are not expecting us to believe this “detailed, coherent position for resolution ” ?? what good is a detailed coherent resolution if it’s unacceptable? how bout palestinians propose the most fabulously detailed coherent resolution imaginable, go read the palestine papers, israel would not accept it. they will accept nothing but total surrender.

Under this young lady’s thread please let me link Dick Gaughan Scotland wha hae, Dick has had a stroke and is struggling, you remember those white men as soon as you saw them you loved them see this man

Oh wow, like in 1947 there was a iniquitous plan that only benefitted Jewish interests and the “Arabs” rejected it, again?

Israel’s plans for Palestinians are:
– Give up your rights under international and human rights law.
– Accept our violations of international and human rights law.
– Only then you will have something like a state which is in fact a demilitarized and Israeli controlled bantustan. In othe words: A modificaton of our occupation of “Eretz Israel”.
– If you don’t, we are going to keep you under military law and oppression.

And:
” When Rice writes that Israel would retain “Jewish neighborhoods” of Jerusalem, this means that large settlements in occupied East Jerusalem would have been annexed to Israel. According to the map of Olmert’s plan released by Ha’aretz, these included the massive settlement of Ma’ale Adumim, which all but bisects the West Bank.
Other major settlements Olmert would have retained for Israel included Ariel and other major colonies in the northern West Bank, which would have denied a Palestinian state real territorial contiguity.
According to Ha’aretz, much of the land Olmert reportedly offered Abbas in exchange for crucial areas of Jerusalem and the West Bank was carved out of the barren Judean Desert, south of the West Bank.
Olmert reportedly offered to allow the return of only 5,000 Palestinian refugees, a tiny fraction of the 4.3 million who are registered with the UN. This issue alone would have made it nearly impossible for Abbas to gain support for the plan among the Palestinian people.
According to Rice’s account, Olmert demanded that Abbas sign his map without consulting his own advisors and legal experts, and refused to allow Abbas to take a copy of the map to the Palestinian negotiators. It would have been unusual and irresponsible for Abbas to unilaterally sign an agreement in secret and without first consulting his team.
The negotiations brokered by Rice, which began at the 2007 Annapolis conference, were not designed to produce a final peace agreement. Rather, these talks had the less ambitious goal of a “shelf agreement,” to be implemented at a later date.
By the time Olmert made his offer, he had been under investigation for corruption for months and was fending off calls for his resignation. Olmert’s political weakness at the time casts into doubt his ability to conclude a peace agreement.”https://imeu.org/article/analysis-rices-account-of-olmerts-generous-offer

Annie,
I read the link and the papers. There was no counter proposal that I saw proposed at that time. Your subsequent link involved an Abbas proposal to the quartet year later. Netanyahu did not respond to that proposal. I’m not saying that the current Israeli govt is prioritizing a settlement. But, the history is one of multiple Israeli proposals and only recently Palestinian proposals.

The history is of Israel building and taking the piss. Any “offer” involved Israel holding on to Ariel and Male adumim plus East Jerusalem. The WB would be divided into 4 cantons.
Israel set in motion a machine in 1967 that will destroy it.

Unify deal collapsing? So so surprising. The Palestinians had better hurry up and find a way to negotiate for their state. Sunni nations are starting to prepare their minions for the already covert alliances with israel. The jew haters and anti zionists on MW keep pushing the 70yr. old bull crap about Israel becoming more and more isolated while even an idiot could glance at news from around the globe and determine that Israel, while publicly excoriated, are making alliances and economics deals with more nations then ever before.
. If palestinians want any chance of their nation with part of East Jerusalem as its capital they had best lower their demands make a deal and hope they can negotiate a contingency clauses where certain land is not turned over until enough time has passed to prove peace. It’s a tough world out there and things don’t happen by magic, voodoo or the UN

A dark day for humanity has dawned. Israel the light unto the nations , the greatest democracy in the world ( with BTW far and away the most moral army in the history of the world) has announced its withdrawal from UNESCO:https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.830702
The Israeli UNESCO envoy accused the body of “diplomatic terrorism” bordering on “anti – semitism”. He presumably was so terrified when he attended UNESCO gatherings that he almost incited himself.

OMG what is UNESCO / the world/the universe going to do without the guiding cultural light which is ZioFascism.

Of course the decision has nothing whatsoever to do with Loony Donald`s recent US withdrawal from UNESCO

RE: “This is a story about Jewish identity being rooted in trauma; and how long will it take us to overcome that trauma?” ~ Weiss

ON SAM SEDER’S ‘MAJORITY REPORT’:
■ Born Anxious: The Lifelong Impact of Early Life Adversity w/ Daniel P Keating | September 18, 2017

Daniel P. Keating, a Professor of Education and the University of Michigan and author of Born Anxious: The Lifelong Impact of Early Life Adversity – and How to Break the Cycle, explains how stress gets transmitted, what is epigenetic. The advantages and disadvantages of stress. Why America is becoming more stressed. Generational stress and group oppression. The individual and group implications of heightened stress levels and measuring stress levels, education and inequality. Why all groups are affected by enhanced stress and what are the policy solutions to the stress crisis?

UNHCR’s annual Global Trends report says an unprecedented 65.6 million people were uprooted from their homes by conflict and persecution at the end of 2016.

By Adrian Edwards in Geneva | 19 June 2017

In each of the past five years, annual increases to the global displacement total have been in the millions.

.. 40.3 million people uprooted within the borders of their own countries ..
.. the total number seeking asylum globally was 2.8 million ..
.. the total seeking safety across international borders as refugees topped 22.5 million ..

In terms of overall displacement, Syria still accounts for the biggest numbers, with 12 million people (65 per cent of the population) displaced internally or living outside the country as refugees.

Leaving aside the long-standing Palestinian refugee situation, Colombians (7.7 million) and Afghans (4.7 million) remained the second- and third-largest displaced populations, followed by Iraqis (4.2 million). In total, about 3.3 million South Sudanese had fled their homes by the end of the year, in what has become the fastest-growing displacement of people in the world.

… organizations that fail and fail and fail to grapple with the predicaments of the forlorn castaways of this world.

Tiny Israel, with roughly 1/1000 of the world’s population, enrages “the world”, most of whose political elites are forced to confront the spectacle of a teenage girl from an aggrieved community slapping, before waiting cameras, an armed guardian of the state, with the guardian remaining calm and composed… demonstrating social and political relations of a moral character these other nations are many generations away from achieving.

|| Neil Schipper: … Tiny Israel, with roughly 1/1000 of the world’s population, enrages “the world”, most of whose political elites are forced to confront the spectacle of a teenage girl from an aggrieved community slapping, before waiting cameras, an armed guardian of the state, with the guardian remaining calm and composed… demonstrating social and political relations of a moral character these other nations are many generations away from achieving. ||

Tiny Jim, roughly 1/8000000000 of the world’s population, enrages “the world”, most of whose citizens are forced to confront the spectacle of an aggrieved teenage girl slapping, in his YouTube video, the knife-wielding rapist…sorry, the “armed guardian of the female”, with the rapist…sorry, the “guardian” remaining calm and composed… demonstrating social and interpersonal relations of a moral character other people are many generations away from achieving.

The Palestinians have been suffering dispossession and expulsion from their native lands, occupation, oppression, violence, murder, humiliation, collective punishments, imprisonment without charge, torture, destruction of their homes and olive/fruit groves, theft of their water and lands, etc., for NEARLY 70 YEARS at the hands of Zionists financed in large measure by US taxpayers whose politicians are firmly in the pocket of the pro-Israel lobby, which includes despicable Sheldon Adelson and Haim Sabam.

The utter hypocrisy of your statement is well demonstrated by the fact you do not mention Israel’s blatantly racist treatment and expulsion of desperate African refugees. No surprise, Zionism is the very essence of racism.

As for “Tiny Israel,” it is and has always been an illegal, belligerent and illegal occupier of Palestinian and other Arab lands and a serial violator of hard won international law, including the UN Charter, The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, The Fourth Geneva Convention and the Rome Statute, which are binding on all UN members and came about in large measure due to the monstrous crimes of the Nazis, including the slaughter of 6 million Jews.

You should be hanging your head in utter shame. Instead, all you’ve done is demonstrate your perverted need to defend fascism.

Responsibility for those displaced from Syria and Iraq can be sheeted home to the Neo-Conservatives. Guess on whose behalf they engineered those wars.

“So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” — meaning the Secretary of Defense’s (Paul Wolfowitz) office — “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.””
– General Wesley Clark

re: “I find this so dispiriting it is hard to put one word after another.”

Thanks for making the effort, Philip. Your observations prompted several thoughts for me, but I think any comment from me on what you wrote would be superfluous at best. I merely want to express appreciation for your work and that of the others.

Philip Weiss contends “The Palestinian experience today is a lot like the Jewish experience of pogroms 100 years ago and more in eastern Europe. ”
How can people accept this nonsense, drawing fake equivalence between Jewish and Palestinian victimhood? The Jews were totally subjugated by brutal anti-semitic regimes that conducted pogroms against them. The Palestinians instigate attacks against Israelis driven by state-sponsored hate and incitement because they can’t get their way and having learnt from the regimes that were fuelled by anti-semitic fervour against Jews they now follow suit.
The ‘Palestinians’ missed the boat by reneging on frequent opportunities to strike a peace deal with Israel and now they are coercing the world on the international stage with the implicit threats spread by their Muslim and Left-wing mates around the world to maintain their rabid campaign to get rid of Israel.
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22nTShaXCfg&w=640&h=360%5D

@CigarGod. how Gaza “is a Warsaw Ghetto”? Have you ever tried any serious comparison? For example, level of obesity among children? Number of swimming-pools and five star restaurants per 100,000 inhabitants? The number of trucks arriving with goods each day? And oh, yes, the number of missiles lobbed from either Gaza v Warsaw Ghetto on civilians from the other side?

No they weren’t. That is Zionist myth-history. Perhaps that is why you provide no quotes or references? For most of the last 1000 years, Jews functioned as service nomads performing functions for the Gentile nobility which the uneducated peasants and serfs were unable to perform. In effect, working for the crown. Many of the “pogroms” were, in reality, peasant uprisings against the feudal system of exploitation. In Eastern Europe, industrialization and modernization profoundly effected the role of the Jews in relation to the Gentile majority. Conflict was perhaps inevitable. ALL groups suffering from warfare and internal violence as power was fought for, non-Jews not some homogeneous group but composed of many competing groups. I, once again, provide some quotes and links for those interested in reality, not propaganda.

“Jewish historiography, especially in English, is misleading on this point inasmuch as it tends to focus on Jewish poverty and anti-Jewish discrimination. Both were real enough at times; but the poorest Jewish craftsman, pedlar, landlord’s steward or petty cleric was immeasurably better off than a serf. This was particularly true in those European countries where serfdom persisted into the 19th century, whether in partial or extreme form: Prussia, Austria (including Hungary), Poland and the Polish lands taken by Russia. And it is not without significance that, prior to the great Jewish migration of modern times (around 1880), a large majority of all Jews were living in those areas and that their most important social function there was to mediate the oppression of the peasants on behalf of the nobility and crown.” (p52-53, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

“…the social role of the Jews as an integral part of the upper classes. In many countries Jews were treated as potential nobles and, upon conversion, were able to immediately intermarry with the highest nobility. The nobility of 15th century Castile and Aragon or the aristocracy of 18th century Poland- to take the two cases where intermarriage with converted Jews was widespread – would hardly be likely to marry Spanish peasants or Polish serfs, no matter how much praise the gospel has for the poor.” (p67, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

At the beginning of the twentieth century, “Most of Russian Jews (about 90 percent) resided in the Pale of Settlement, to which they were legally restricted. Most of the Jews in the Pale of Settlement (all but about 4 percent, who were farmers and factory workers) continued to pursue traditional service occupations as middlemen between the overwhelmingly agricultural Christian population and various urban markets.” (p105, “The Jewish Century,” Yuri Slezkine)

“Most important, they were affected by Russia’s late-nineteenth-century modernization in ways that were more direct, profound, and fundamental than most other Russian communities because their very existence as a specialized caste was at stake. The emancipation of the serfs, the demise of the manorial economy, and the expansion of the economic role of the state rendered the role of the traditional Mercurian mediator between the countryside and the town economically irrelevant, legally precarious, and increasingly dangerous.” (p115, “The Jewish Century,” Yuri Slezkine)

Oh, and I though that Palestinians were defending themselves against settler colonialism that started its terrorism in the late 1930s.

Mayhem: “… because they can’t get their way and having learnt from the regimes that were fuelled by anti-semitic fervour against Jews they now follow suit.”

What Jews do, if they can’t get it their way is documented since the 1930s. And nothing has to do with defending themselves.

Mayhem: “The ‘Palestinians’ missed the boat by reneging on frequent opportunities to strike a peace deal with Israel …”

The ‘Jews’ don’t want peace. They want at all of Eretz Israel without resistance and they don’t want two equal states but at most a “homeland” for Nonjews which is nothing more than a demilitarized and Jewish controlled bantustan. They don’t want 55%, nor 78% of Palestine, but 100% under their exclusive control allthough they are a minority in hist. Palestine even without the Nonjews they keep expelled. They don’t want to share Jerusalem. Racist as they are they don’t want anybody to “return” but wannabee descendants of ancient Hebrews. They don’t want equal rights in Israel. They have nothing to offer what is theirs and which they haven’t acquired through war or confiscation.

[EXCERPTS] . . . The emphasis on ‘trust-building’ with Israel has coloured the evolution of the political process since 2003. The general movement towards providing ‘law and order’, security co-operation and ‘institution-building’ is well known. But the ‘state-building’ project as a whole should be understood in the context of counter-insurgency – as tangled up with Israel’s unique approach to the collective management of Palestinians – rather than as part of any genuine effort at ‘good governance’. . .

. . . Israel’s vice-premier, Moshe Ya’alon, was candid when asked in an interview this year: ‘Why all these games of make-believe negotiations?’ He replied:

Because … there are pressures. Peace Now from within, and other elements from without. So you have to manoeuvre … what we have to do is manoeuvre with the American administration and the European establishment, which are nourished by Israeli elements [and] which create the illusion that an agreement can be reached … I say that time works for those who make use of it. The founders of Zionism knew … and we in the government know how to make use of time. . .

the Jews were doing fine, except for the occasional blood libel, massacre, expulsion, persecution and pogrom. And the Holocaust

The invading history teacher is forgetting the worst of the Eternal Persecution Of The Jews: a slap from a 16-year-old little girl, flag-waving by a double amputee, a severely wounded kid threateningly lying on the street in a coma, a possible pebble throw by a six-year-old… and these are only the most recent few days of the ongoing Persecution By Big Bad Goys.

A spy reported from Cairo that al-Husaini prepared this third edition together with the Nazi agitator and theoretician, [Professor] Johann von Leers: Haqa’iq An Qadiyyat Filastin[2] or “The truth on the Palestine question.” This was to be published in Germany too by a former SS officer, Karl-Heinz Priester of Wiesbaden.[3] Al-Husaini in 1957 also consulted von Leers in Cairo, asking how to sway the non-aligned states. At this time, von Leers looked for an aid society for “nationalist groups imprisoned by court orders or prosecuted for their beliefs,”[4]a “Nazi amnesty international.” Thus, the third edition which reflected the views both of al-Husaini and von Leers was published at the height of postwar Nazi influence in Cairo.

Although American intelligence officers in Cairo claimed that in 1959 von Leers became the “chief propaganda advisor” to Abd an-Nasir [Gamal Abdul Nasser], [5] this is doubtful. Nevertheless, the impact of von Leers on him was considerable. In October 1958 this president read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that Leers had previously disseminated. Abd an-Nasir told an Indian journalist that the (forged) Protocols convinced him that Europe was in the hands of 300 Zionists.[6] He called the Holocaust a lie. His brother, Shauqi, who edited the Protocols in Arabic, tirelessly propagated them, even in 1981.[7]

In 1942, Johann von Leers published an article “Judaism and Islam as Opposites”, which includes:

Mohammed’s hostility to the Jews had one result: Oriental Jewry was completely paralyzed. Its backbone was broken. Oriental Jewry effectively did not participate in [European] Jewry’s tremendous rise to power in the last two centuries. Despised in the filthy lanes of the mellah (the walled Jewish quarter of a Moroccan city, analogous to the European ghetto) the Jews vegetated there. They lived under a special law (that of a protected minority), which in contrast to Europe did not permit usury or even traffic in stolen goods, but kept them in a state of oppression and anxiety. If the rest of the world had adopted a similar policy, we would not have a Jewish Question (Judenfrage)…. As a religion, Islam indeed performed an eternal service to the world: it prevented the threatened conquest of Arabia by the Jews and vanquished the horrible teaching of Jehovah by a pure religion, which at that time opened the way to a higher culture for numerous peoples ….

Whatever means the Zionists got their state by is not relevant: they will hang for getting their state –and no, it doesn’t look as if the wars and genocide they are committing, now extended to several populations in addition to that of Palestinians, can be successful: each extension brings new enemies and new indictments.

You know, ech, during the world wars, grievances in North America held by Confederate loyalists, blacks, aboriginals, Quebec nationalists etc., were placed on the back burner so that the main task at hand could be vigorously pursued.

Zionism in Arabia ought to function like the alien invaders in the film Independence Day, galvanizing the rival peoples to come together to face the common enemy. (It’s conceivable that this could be carried out peaceably.)

We don’t see this. We see Arab (& Turkish & Persian) Muslims, nurtured, schooled, and propagandized in Arab, etc. lands engaged in wars and quasi-genocides amongst themselves, presently in about a half dozen states. And iron-fisted rule the norm in the states not presently at hot war.

Do you ever think about this seriously enough so as not to be satisfied with the cartoonish lefty explanations centered around Zionism and Western Imperialism?

As a greedy norteamericano, I lust for cheap, cheap, cheap Norwegian oil, Indian Basmati rice, and Brazilian coffee. Why can’t our CIA/Mossad/MI5 do their freakin’ jobs and get those countries to fracture into warlord enclaves and roaming headchoppers?

Thanks for this candid giveaway of how Zindoctrination works. From unfertilized ovum all the way to the grave. No air intake from the outside allowed.

So non-members of the mythical family are either a big, boiling, undifferentiated, subhuman mass, out for mischief independently from any imperialism, or an undifferentiated mass of rich morons out there to serve you crazies.

Thanks again for showing the damage Z can do to a brain –supposing there was one there in the first place.

“That’s right , the Jews were doing fine, except for the occasional blood libel, massacre, expulsion, persecution and pogrom. And the Holocaust.”

Well, you can send the world an itemized bill, or you can complain to God about it, it’s up to you. Make sure to mention that we couldn’t get hired at ‘white shoe’ law firms, or buy a house in the best neighborhoods in the US.

I hope, when Phil makes his next junket to the region, that instead of staying in a Jewish owned BnB in Jerusalem, he spends his whole time in West Bank Arab villages, or in Gaza, talking face to face with real Arabs.

Probably the actual truth. I don’t recall how many good old boys vowed to leave the u.s. if that brown muslim from Kenya ever got elected but can imagine. I think there’s a settlement full of expats called Kfar Lo Obama, right next to Kfar Lo Obama 2.

Nor me, Atlanta. But I think it is sufficient to have a definite preference for the Big O to be not on,y ended but replaced by a Second State – that’s what lets you meet the definition of a liberal Zionist. LZ is compatible with almost absurd patience about making the change, a patience found in all leading Western political figures.
Season’s greetings to one and all.

The Liberalz are delighted by the occupation. As long as it is in place, one can pretend to be “ready for negotiations” about some hypothetical negotiations provided so many unstated conditions are met, and to continue the ongoing genocide until final success while maintaining a respectable facade of supporters of 2 states, opposition to occupation and even support to BDS (limited to post-67, natch.)

If the occupation were to really end overnight (to “end” in part, again, as for them and their supporters it is ony post-67) well then they would be suddenly bare-ass naked, without any “do-gooder” fig leaf. The occupation is key to the LiberalZ’ well-being, icon and credibility in the credulous West, while for the Likudonazis there is no loss of image involved in transforming the occupation in outright annexation and disappearing the inhabitants in plain daylight instead of “bei Nacht und Nebel” (sorry but any discussion on Zionism unconsciously brings German loan expressions, can’t help it.)

I always prefer the current government that call its shots to any LiberalZ.

The facts on the ground prove who has been refusing to make compromises since the Basel Congress in 1897 or the Biltmore Programm in 1942. It’s no surprise that the declaration of Israel writes about “redeeming Eretz Israel”.

It would be nice if a Mondoweiss article would come out and say what exactly is the agenda. On the one hand, the occupation must end (“The occupation surely is destroying Israel spiritually. But who is it actually destroying, Palestinians”). However, on the other hand, partition is no good (“But partition efforts have crumbled for 70 years, and the last 25 years of earnest effort have been a miserable failure. It is not enough to call for partition”).

So, it would seem that the article is giving us a conflicting message. The occupation is awful, so one assumes that it should end. However, ending the occupation would mean that the country will be partitioned between two political entities – and that’s not going to work out either according to the logic of the article. So, what should be done? Strangely, the article doesn’t have any suggestions.

Probably, the intention of the article is that the existence of the State of Israel is the definition of “occupation”. The occupation will end with the demise of Israel (not with the return to the pre-1967 lines). A new political entity must be founded on the basis of the unity of the country (no partition), and thus we could have an end of occupation without partition. Indeed, the very title of the article (“The never-ending crisis of Zionism”) hints to the unspoken intention: “As long as Israel exists there is no solution”.

It shouldn’t be a problem for an anti-Israel publication to state its agenda in clear terms. Strangely, there seems to be some kind of problem going on the record with a clear statement that calls for the demise of Israel and its replacement by a new state. Maybe some reader could explain to me the reason for this unnecessary game of beating around the bush.

Anyway, the article presents a number of poor points that should be debated. For example, we are told that the Palestinian children under occupation are “given no chance to dream of a better life”. Well, it is possible to end the conflict with Israel, and in so doing life would obviously improve for everyone. Unfortunately, such a simple and idealistic thought is never considered in this website.

Another example of a poor point is the comparison between the pogroms in Eastern Europe and the plight of the Palestinians. It’s true that suffering is suffering, but still it should be obvious that the historic circumstances are so different. The Jews of Eastern Europe were not in a conflict with anyone. The Palestinians on the other hand are in an armed conflict. It could be that Mondoweiss identifies with the Palestinian struggle, but it still should be obvious that the violence and suffering are not exactly a mystery.

Nathan: “However, ending the occupation would mean that the country will be partitioned between two political entities …”

Not necessarily. It could mean the dissolution of the Zionist Apartheid Junta and giving up Jewish exclusive control over the whole country instead of maintaining the ethnic cleansing of Nonjews to maintain a fake majority of Jews.

Nathan: “Well, it is possible to end the conflict with Israel, and in so doing life would obviously improve for everyone. ”

Sure. It is easy for Palestinians to end the conflict. But its not for the Zionist Apartheid Junta which wants to control the whole country while committing pogroms and expulsions against the natives to be maintain a fake majority of Jews.

Nathan: “Another example of a poor point is the comparison between the pogroms in Eastern Europe and the plight of the Palestinians.”

That’s true. The Nonjewish Russians were not settlers who wanted to take over the whole country by committing pogroms and expulsions against the natives to become a fake majority.

Nathan: “The Palestinians on the other hand are in an armed conflict.”

Yes. The armed conflict was forced upon them by Zionist settlers who wanted to take over the whole country by committing pogroms and expulsions against the Palestinians to become a fake majority and simulate fake majority ruling (aka democracy).

“And Lorde has cancelled her concert in Tel Aviv.” John o
She should go further and sing in Gaza, you know, in support of Palestine. I am sure over there the girls would love her songs of lust and western decadence. Hamas would surely embrace her, now that she has shown her distaste for the Zionist entity. Consistency and all.

Eran Arielli of Naranjah, one of the promoters who said fans would be reimbursed, wrote on Facebook following the cancellation that he was “naive to think that an artist of her age would be able to face the pressure of appearing in Israel”.

“Lorde, I’m hoping you can be a ‘pure heroine’ like the title of your first album,” Regev said in a statement. “To be a heroine of pure culture, free from any foreign – and ridiculous – political considerations.”

In the aftermath of her decision the singer garnered both praise and criticism on social media with the pro-Israel lobby organisation StandWithUs accusing Lorde of punishing Israel.

StandWithUs(@StandWithUs)

What a disappointment. Music should be enjoyed by all peoples, instead @lordehas encouraged a cultural ban of music on Israel. Lorde, do you really think punishing the people of #Israel is the right thing to do? How shameful. https://t.co/5Km0FXpnXF

Others praised her decision and the calm way she engaged with the issue.

Dimi Reider(@reider)

BREAKING: @Lorde called off her TLV gig. Remarkable not coz she’s most high-profile artists to do so recently, but also for calm, humble & dignified exchange she had w stakeholders in the conflict. If only all exchanges on BDS had that much mutual respect. https://t.co/x9U4sRGY49

|| catalan: … She should go further and sing in Gaza, you know, in support of Palestine. I am sure over there the girls would love her songs of lust and western decadence. Hamas would surely embrace her, now that she has shown her distaste for the Zionist entity. Consistency and all. ||

For a Bulgarian who hails from Spain (you guess) and lives in New Mexico, you sound awfully bitter about one young woman’s boycott of a deliberately and unapologetically oppressive, colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. Your inner Zionist is showing.

This is simply a charade, to show the world that Saudi Arabia is mad at Israel, but reality is, they are having a secret love affair, while trying to get the US to shock and awe Iran. They are putting on an act just to mislead the word. Militarily, SA and Israel are up to no good
They, together with the US, are the new axis of evil.

“The creation of once non-existent ties between Saudi Arabia and Israel has been widely reported, but never publicly confirmed by either government, ever since the Iran nuclear deal was signed by the U.S. and other key Western nations. There have been coy hints to be sure, like when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a halfhearted “no comment” to 60 Minutes reporter Leslie Stahl when she asked him last year if Israel had improved its relationship with Saudi Arabia as part of a coalition against Iran. And neither Israel nor Saudi Arabia has yet confirmed widespread reports in the Middle Eastern media that new Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman secretly visited Israel in September.

LZ’s care only about soldiers’ purity of arms (so-called) and not about human rights violations?! What do the LZ’s think, that the (hated, dreadful) occupation performs human rights violations all by itself? The occupation shot someone in the face? Not a soldier?

OK, the LZ’s should say it right out loud: the occupation is operated by soldiers who do what they are told and who thereby violate Palestinian human rights either as a matter of following orders reluctantly, following orders willingly, or acting outside of orders. Soldiers do it. Cry about it but admit it. And admit the human rights violations,. And then say what you would prefer.

The Zionist have covered most of the bases including the dual allegiance fears. The Christian Zionist have been cultivated specifically for that purpose.

It will take a big food fight here in the States between Jews that support Israeli-Judeo-Zionism at all costs, and those who will take to the barricades in defense of the historic, benevolent, altruistic Judaism taught to them by their traditions. Untraditional Judeo-Zionism has been enforced and imposed on them by the Zionist who have usurped traditional Judaism.

Mr Mondo refers to “the last 25 years of earnest effort” for a “two-state” solution as “a miserable failure.” This is risible. For the Zionist entity, there’s been nothing “earnest” about it. The Israeli Jews have never had the slightest intention of ceding so much as a spec of dirt to the natives or to recognize a single Palestinian “right”–other than the right to flee or starve to death. “Earnest” my arse. As for the results–again, for the ZE, it has been anything but a “miserable failure.” It’s been a roaring success. The endless “peace process” has given it cover to gradually absorb more and more land, create more “facts on the ground,” to corrupt more gutless, careerist politicians in the US, Europe and Australia to support the despicable ZE regime, to replace one punching bag non-partner for peace in Fatah after another. Time and delay is not merely the ZE’s strategy–it’s biblical mandate: “The LORD your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you.” Deut. 7:22.

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