I object to people claming their favorite anti-LDS attack phrases are 'Doctrine' when in fact they are not LDS doctrine

I don't object to you sharing beliefs and teachings you have heard. I fully admit people in the church have shared speculation as if it were doctrine. However, that mistake still does not make it LDS doctrine. We all have members of different levels of catechism, and even the most learned are human and make mistakes

I didn't put words in your mouth Tony888. I explained that the LDS Church rejects orthodoxy and so any claims you have to some sort of Mormon orthodoxy, are fantasy.

But just keep on going with it, fantasy seems to suit you.

__________________The violence we preach is not the violence of the sword, the violence of hatred. It is the violence of love, of brotherhood, the violence that wills to beat weapons into sickles for work. óBlessed Archbishop ”scar Romero

No one here, contrary to your assertions, has a problem with anything in the CCC, what we have a problem with is your interpretation of OUR catechism, your applying Mormon "theology" (for lack of a better term) to Catholic teaching.

You are LDS, you do not get to tell us what OUR catechism means, period.

AMEN!!

__________________The violence we preach is not the violence of the sword, the violence of hatred. It is the violence of love, of brotherhood, the violence that wills to beat weapons into sickles for work. óBlessed Archbishop ”scar Romero

You have lifted one sentence from Part One, Section two, Chapter Two, Article 3, of the Catholic Catechism. Article 3 is about the Incarnation. It is not about the Catholic teaching of deification or theosis.

Jim, why are you so bitter against the LDS? I say that because your claims are ludicrous.

That's your interpretation, Tony. I am not bitter. But I do defend the Catholic Church as best I can against the false claims of Mormonism, such as the so-called Great Apostasy and being called "the great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose foundation is the devil, that leads souls to hell, the whore of all the earth" in the Book of Mormon. Modern Mormons say, 'Oh, the BOM doesn't mean the CATHOLIC Church.' But that was previously Mormon doctrine, for sure. That's what I mean about your doctrines changing. What Mormons are taught depends on how old they are. The Adam/God doctrine was taught by none other than Brigham Young, and was still being taught in the 1960's (I don't know when it was stopped) but it's now rejected, along with many others, in an attempt to sanitize Mormonism and make it appear more Christian.

The LDS make a strong attempt to catechize members on the teachings of the Church, and the Church uses standardized manuals to ensure all members are learning the right teachings. These manuals are clearly meant to teach correct doctrine, and except for a few errors, they do this well.

McConkie's Mormon Doctrine used to be one of those manuals, but since May 2010 it has been repudiated.

"Written in 1958, Mormon Doctrine has served as a reference book for members of the Church for over 50 years, but has recently gone out of vogue." (From an article I previously posted.)

Quote:

I would love for you to back up your claim that LDS doctrine is a complete mess, that constantly changes.

I can't back up a claim I didn't make.

Quote:

Please support this slander Or where you just attacking the concept of ongoing revelation?

Is the change in Mormon doctrine regarding polygamy slander? I refer you to the1890 Woodruff Manifesto.

Is the change in Mormon doctrine regarding Blacks and the Mormon priesthood slander? The ban on blacks holding the priesthood was reversed due to 'revelation' received by the prophet Spencer W. Kimball in 1978.

There are many former "doctrines" or "teachings" that are now denied. Heavenly Father's intercourse with Mary resulting in the birth of Jesus on earth, still taught by Ezra Taft Benson (died 1994), for example.

Quote:

I think the independent surveys support the LDS know their bible and doctrine better than the Catholics, as a group. It's not a competiton, but I'm tired of your ego and attacks on the body of the faithful.

What independent survey? You know, do you not, that the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church's own writings? That's why the LDS Apostasy theory is so ludicrous. You got your Scriptures from an alleged "apostate" Church.

Quote:

I have not claimed myself an expert on the CCC but I've noticed what it explicitly says, and asked you to justify your comments that conflict

This entire thread has dealt with the question of polytheism in Mormonism, which you and other continue to deny in spite of the evidence from Mormon sources.

You interpret the CCC to mean that the Catholic Church teaches the same thing as the Mormons regarding godhood for males. WRONG! St. Paul's statement, "It is not I, but Christ who lives in me" is an example of Deification or Theosis, not that men become gods and rule over their own kingdom and have spirit children non-stop with their goddess wives (plural) forever, as Mormonism teaches. Please stop misrepresenting my Church's doctrine!

Quote:

. If your words were true, you would have ample official references (but you have supplied none)

Many posters have given ample evidence, and you deny it.

And yes, it is the concept of "ongoing revelation" I was referring to when I stated: QUOTE: In reality, there is no truth in Mormonism to be recorded. "Truth" means true forever, and Mormon doctrines are subject to change through ongoing revelation" END QUOTE. It's more than a concept -- we've seen it in action.

You don't deny that "Lying in the Lord" or "milk before meat," are Mormon principles, do you? Or, since you're a new Mormon, maybe you haven't been taught these yet. Just google them.

"Before becoming a prophet, Smith's chosen profession relied on deception to earn a living. He assured clients that he could see underground treasure using a magic stone in the bottom of his hat and clients paid him to locate hidden gold using this method. He never did of course. Smith's arrest, trial and conviction in Bainbridge, NY for fraud in 1826 documented his activity. He was found guilty of glass looking. The modern term for Smith would be a con artist. (Dan Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 82-86)," quoted by Ken Clark, former Mormon teacher. http://mormonthink.com/lying.htm

I sympathize. It must be a shock to learn these things about your new religion on an internet forum.

This is exactly the question that I have been asking and have been pointed to non authoritarian sources that seem to conflict in their interpretations. As far as I can tell this either does not exist or those on this site do not know of it's existence if it does.

DCNBILL,

An answer probably won't satisfy you, but here you go:

The Latter-day Saint scriptures, described as the "Standard Works" (The Holy Bible (KJV), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price) provide the "cannon" of the Latter-day Saint beliefs. Reading them is what satisfies the soul and enlarges spiritual capacity and spiritual nourishment and learning by the Spirit for Latter-day Saint members who are active in their faith and who keep the commandments in their daily life.

I've read a lot of doctrinal books and articles, but what really nourishes year after year, time after time of reading them, are those scriptures--each of them significantly important, and each of them providing a spiritual and doctrinal framework for drawing closer to Heavenly Father and to the Lord, Jesus Christ--for me at least in my life's experience, and I suppose for other Latter-day Saints also.

One of the most interesting parts (to me) of these "Standard Words" ParkerD writes about is the Doctrine & Covenants132:54-56: "And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith [Joseph's wife], to abide and cleave unto my servant, Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not my law."

In the next verse, 55, God tells Emma he will give Joseph "fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds." God warns Emma that he will destroy her if she doesn't accept Joseph's many wives.

These books contain many references to "the gods." For example, about "exaltation," Joseph Smith (author of these books) writes:

D&C 132:20 They shall be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto then. Then they shall be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Abraham 4:1 - "...they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth."

4:2 - . . . Spirit of the Gods . . .
4:3 - And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light . . .
4:4 - And they (the Gods) comprehended the light . . .
4:5 - And the Gods called the light Day . . .

And on and on the Book of Abraham goes, telling of the work of these many Gods "organizing" and forming already exisitng creation, to the end of the book.

Makes me wonder why this thread has gone on so long. Of course, Mormonism is polytheistic.

Henotheism doesn't work, since there are three separate Gods of earth - Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Or maybe they claim henotheism since they worship only the Father????

One of the most interesting parts (to me) of these "Standard Words" ParkerD writes about is the Doctrine & Covenants132:54-56: "And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith [Joseph's wife], to abide and cleave unto my servant, Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not my law."

In the next verse, 55, God tells Emma he will give Joseph "fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds." God warns Emma that he will destroy her if she doesn't accept Joseph's many wives.

These books contain many references to "the gods." For example, about "exaltation," Joseph Smith (author of these books) writes:

D&C 132:20 They shall be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto then. Then they shall be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Abraham 4:1 - "...they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth."

4:2 - . . . Spirit of the Gods . . .
4:3 - And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light . . .
4:4 - And they (the Gods) comprehended the light . . .
4:5 - And the Gods called the light Day . . .

And on and on the Book of Abraham goes, telling of the work of these many Gods "organizing" and forming already exisitng creation, to the end of the book.

Makes me wonder why this thread has gone on so long. Of course, Mormonism is polytheistic.

Henotheism doesn't work, since there are three separate Gods of earth - Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Or maybe they claim henotheism since they worship only the Father????

It also shows our own sinful nature. It is good to at least understand the battle as it should bring us to confession and Eucharist more often. A Crucifix to remind us all how God has chosen to bring us back into the garden. As to the image of the sheep, you have to know you are lost in order to be found by Him, our Lord and God. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#392

The Mormons in my area had such writings about Catholics out in 2005 here.

..
Hi Kathleen, maybe I didn't get enough sleep, but what do you mean by "such writings about Catholics"? What did the writings allege?

Quote:

Considering the construct of Mormonism --basically anti-Catholic and anti-Christian in general, any Mormon who denies such things is playing games with his own brain.

Yes! The Catholic Church went unchallenged as the True Church for centuries, and then the Protestants broke away. But none of the Deformation groups were so foolish as to claim that they were the One True Church established by Jesus Christ. Smith had to allege that the Catholic Church and all others claiming to be Christian became "apostate" so that he could substitute his new "church" as the replacement. Hence the attack on the Catholic Church in the Book of Mormon. Mormons urgently want to be accepted as Christian -- in spite of their polytheism, which they cover up by redefining the meaning of words.

One of the most interesting parts (to me) of these "Standard Words" ParkerD writes about is the Doctrine & Covenants132:54-56: "And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith [Joseph's wife], to abide and cleave unto my servant, Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not my law."

In the next verse, 55, God tells Emma he will give Joseph "fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds." God warns Emma that he will destroy her if she doesn't accept Joseph's many wives. :

Kind of makes you wonder about Emma's "free will choice" in this case. Sounds like a gun to her head to me.

__________________

"You know well enough that our Lord does not look so much at the greatness of our actions, nor even at their difficulty, but at the love with which we do them."
-- St. Therese of Lisieux

Jim, I am referring to anti-Catholic materials in Mormon stores. They are clearing them out of these texts.

If Mormons are starting to use our materials to support their opposite claims, my pastor said it is high time they start coming into the Catholic Church.

The Mormons want to take the place of the Catholic Church and Christianity. That is why they have to focus so much on the Catholic Church to get information, to learn how to speak more rationally....

Essentially, Mormonism is an American man made church, drawing on figures of early American story telling to embellish their beliefs and draw in certain kinds of people...In the USA, I wonder how many are actually coming into Mormonism vs those who were born in it and stay because of family ties.

Kind of makes you wonder about Emma's "free will choice" in this case. Sounds like a gun to her head to me.

An elephant gun! If I believed God wrote to me or about me personally, by name, and threatened to destroy me, that would motivate me to do as he said, for sure.

D&C 132:52 - "And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith receive all those that have been given to my servant Joseph and are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord." Ladies, don't lie to my servant Joseph about your purity or it's lights out! (signed) God. Joseph, of course, was writing 'God's words' himself.

Jim, I am referring to anti-Catholic materials in Mormon stores. They are clearing them out of these texts.

If Mormons are starting to use our materials to support their opposite claims, my pastor said it is high time they start coming into the Catholic Church.

The Mormons want to take the place of the Catholic Church and Christianity. That is why they have to focus so much on the Catholic Church to get information, to learn how to speak more rationally....

Essentially, Mormonism is an American man made church, drawing on figures of early American story telling to embellish their beliefs and draw in certain kinds of people...In the USA, I wonder how many are actually coming into Mormonism vs those who were born in it and stay because of family ties.

Thanks, I see what you mean. Yes, they expect to replace the Catholic Church.

It's scary, Kathleen, when one considers how much of America's financial system and other businesses they own.