Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Threads have popped up in several class forums that seem to be converging on a few of the same issues. So rather than cross-posting a lot, I thought I would start a new thread.

Tanking Design

Our goal in Lich King is for all 4 tanking classes to be viable.

We would like for tanking to be a little more fun. I'm going to leave this vague on purpose, but it is definitely a concern.

In 5-player instances, most warriors, druids, paladins and death knights should be effective tanks. The healing specs may have a harder time than the dps specs. Arms wariors, Fury warriors, Ret paladins, Ferals and most DKs should do fine.

In 5-player heroics, the expectation is that the tank has a heavy investment in tanking talents and appropriate gear. Arms warriors might have trouble tanking a heroic unless they overgear the instance.

For raids, we want all 4 tank classes to be viable. If your group has e.g. a Prot paladin and Feral druid as main tanks with appropriate gear and reasonable skill, you should be good to go.

This is a shift in philosophy for us. Previously, we sometimes tried to steer Ferals as being better off tanks than main tanks. We also expected specific classes to appear in the raid. Our new assumption is that you might have any of the 4 tanking classes as a tank. We are trying to achieve as much parity as we can among the 4 tanks without making them too similar. If nearly all guilds want the same class as their MT, we've failed.

This is a big one: the game isn't finished. We aren't spending too much effort yet to make sure mitigation, threat and tools are similar across the 4 classes at level 80 in blue or purple gear. Likewise, your talent trees and core abilities aren't finished. Tanking (and PvP) need to have a lot of other pieces of the game in place before we can really get the numbers right. It's fine (useful even) to point out when you feel a particular ability, talent, class or build is too good or not good enough. But please don't infer the work in progress as a reflection of our intent. If we end up changing our minds or if things don't work out, it will be posted here.

There are a lot of changes in Lich King that change tanking and raiding in general. I won't list them all out here, but keep in mind things like itemization changes, widespread raid buffs, consumables, UI changes, etc. Just keep them in mind. We're not in Tempest Keep anymore.

We would still like to have tanking "flavors" as you put it, but I want to be a little careful when I say that because some people have taken that to mean that their class won't be good enough to tank the content they want.

If druids had gigantic health pools but lower mitigation and avoidance than a warrior, that would be tanking flavor. It would mean you heal the bears a little different -- they might drain more mana, but the damage would be more predictable. In really long fights, the warrior might have an advantage. In a fight where a boss hit quickly for less damage per hit, the warrior might have an advantage. In fights with periods of really big damage, the druid might have an advantage. In magic fights where armor was less of a factor, the druid might have an advantage. This is just an example. Our overriding concern is making sure the tanks have the tools, threat and mitigation they need to tank. A secondary concern is making sure they don't feel too similar.

Blizzcon 2008 Tickets Sold Out
[blizzquote="Crygil;http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/8765585053-blizzcon-2008-tickets-sold-out.html]Tickets to BlizzCon 2008 are now sold out. We’d like to thank everyone once again for their overwhelming interest in this year’s show. If you were unable to secure tickets, please keep in mind that DIRECTV will be broadcasting BlizzCon live from the Anaheim Convention Center on October 10 and 11. In the meantime, keep an eye on the BlizzCon 2008 website for updates on panels, exhibits, events, and more. We look forward to meeting some of you at the show! [/blizzquote"]

Blue posts

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

Druid (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8770))Feral concerns in WotLK
We're not done with Ferals. The builds you get are often a week or more behind ours, and that assumes that a designer actually went in and made changes. It's impossible for us to balance the threat and mitigation of the 4 tanking classes until we can take a look at the level 80 characters, wearing raid-level gear, and fighting a raid-level encounter. None of that content is done yet.

I said above that I think the old design of "You can't ever be a MT, but you get to be a terrific OT" feels dated. But in order to be a MT as good as a paladin or warrior, you can't also dps as well as a Fury warrior with the same spec. I don't think anyone is asking for that, but realistically the only way to address is it with talents. (And before someone asks, if you like the OT role, you can still do that too.)

I'm fine bouncing between druid, warrior, paladin and death knight forums posting "You will be able to MT Ulduar without gimping your raid" every few days if that's what it takes. (Source)

Those statements aren't mutually exclusive. A druid can be a better MT on some fights and a warrior a better MT on some fights without the fight being impossible for the other class. I can't promise that each raid will have an equal number of fights that benefits one tank over the other, and ultimately it shouldn't really matter. If your guild has a bear and prot paladin as your 2 MTs for LK raiding, you are good to go. At no point will you stop and say, "Gee if we only had a warrior MT, we would have beaten that boss by now."

The comments on "niche" are more to address concerns that the 4 classes have to be carbon copies of each other. Warriors, like other tank classes, are worried that with all of the changes, their role will somehow be eliminated. I am trying to reassure you all that that is not the case. I think we can have say druids have larger stamina pools and warriors have more mitigation without making one of them the tank that 90% of raids run with. (Source)

Protection Spec and DPS
We think we can make the Prot tree more fun. Without talents like Defiance, there are already a few less mandatory talents, and we think we can make even more interesting choices. We definitely can improve Prot dps, so that it doesn't feel so painful to go do dailies or run a 5-man in a dps role. (Source)

Death Knight (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8770))Scourge Strike / Plague Strike
At the moment, the only difference between Plague Strike and Scourge Strike is the damage. Both can remove hots. Scourge Strike's damage appears lower than it is because it hits for Shadow damage and thus ignores armor. (Source)

Talent spec as a tanking Death Knight
In any case, I have tried to say on a few occasions that the goal is NOT that a DK can be awesome at dps and tanking with any spec. The goal is that not every DK tank needs to use the same tree. To be a MT, a death knight will have to pick up tanking talents -- you probably need 16-20, and possibly even more. (Source)

PvP Snare Ability
As far as a PvP- snare ability goes, we are going to try something like removing the cooldown and root from Chains of Ice. It will drop the target's movement to zero, and the target will regain 5% movement speed per sec for 20 sec (10 in PvP). It's a physical debuff that cannot be dispelled and isn't subject to diminishing returns. Let us know how it goes. If it's too spammy now, we can put a cooldown back on it. (Source)

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

PvP Snare Ability
As far as a PvP- snare ability goes, we are going to try something like removing the cooldown and root from Chains of Ice. It will drop the target's movement to zero, and the target will regain 5% movement speed per sec for 20 sec (10 in PvP). It's a physical debuff that cannot be dispelled and isn't subject to diminishing returns. Let us know how it goes. If it's too spammy now, we can put a cooldown back on it.

So, you DK's get a spell that can be spammed, which drops movement to as far as 0%. Not even diminishing returns. That plus the 'get over here' spell will make sure no-one gets away from the DK. Now why do they get all these goodies while pala's have been waiting forever for a snare, or something to close the distance...

(not wanting to make this into a "pallies are underpowered" thread, because they are not. but still...)

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Chains costs a rune. You can't use it every GCD like spamstring. DK's will have to give up a frost rune in order to keep someone permanently snared. Sounds like a fair trade. If it's not, they said they'll change it.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Ok, i'm fine with philosophy that only one class can't be viable as MT. I'm fine with fact that we will now compete with 3 other classes for MT position on more equival terms(ofcourse, there will be fights which will ask for specific MT, but that isn't concern anyways). I wouldn't call warrior changes nerfs and other tank classes changes buffs IF and only IF we follow all new Blizzard philosophy "lets make tanking more fun and equival".

But i don't understand how they could downgrade "THE MAIN ROLL" of warrior AND give nothing instead ? Fury isn't more viable in WOTLK then in TBC (acording to beta testers), there were few changes in our arms and fury trees that can be called "wierd" at best, new 51 point talents are gimmicks for W3 fans... Ok, we DID get buffs to our 30min CD skills reduced to 5min CDs (even with effects nerfed, i do think those changes are still buffs).

Really why make only tanking "more fun", why not make dps "more fun". (Sorry i'm gonna skip part about making healing more fun).

Yes, we keep hearing that game isn't finished yet, that they are working on warrior class and so on, but guys, time is ticking away.. If they planned to boost our Pve DPS and viability, wouldn't they do it by now ?... Only way (and simplest way actually) to level playing field of fury/arms PvE build with other DPS classes is to give somekind of CC usuable only in PvE (and/or with reduced effect in PvP). Shamans and paladins did get one, i don't see reason why couldn't we get one ? Well, in worse case scenario, we can always Bladestorm of the edge of cliff and Heroic leap our way to safety...

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Originally Posted by Brickwall

Ok, i'm fine with philosophy that only one class can't be viable as MT. I'm fine with fact that we will now compete with 3 other classes for MT position on more equival terms(ofcourse, there will be fights which will ask for specific MT, but that isn't concern anyways). I wouldn't call warrior changes nerfs and other tank classes changes buffs IF and only IF we follow all new Blizzard philosophy "lets make tanking more fun and equival".

But i don't understand how they could downgrade "THE MAIN ROLL" of warrior AND give nothing instead ? Fury isn't more viable in WOTLK then in TBC (acording to beta testers), there were few changes in our arms and fury trees that can be called "wierd" at best, new 51 point talents are gimmicks for W3 fans... Ok, we DID get buffs to our 30min CD skills reduced to 5min CDs (even with effects nerfed, i do think those changes are still buffs).

Really why make only tanking "more fun", why not make dps "more fun". (Sorry i'm gonna skip part about making healing more fun).

Yes, we keep hearing that game isn't finished yet, that they are working on warrior class and so on, but guys, time is ticking away.. If they planned to boost our Pve DPS and viability, wouldn't they do it by now ?... Only way (and simplest way actually) to level playing field of fury/arms PvE build with other DPS classes is to give somekind of CC usuable only in PvE (and/or with reduced effect in PvP). Shamans and paladins did get one, i don't see reason why couldn't we get one ? Well, in worse case scenario, we can always Bladestorm of the edge of cliff and Heroic leap our way to safety...

Wait, actually we can't... *splatering sound*...

Totally agree with you. Druids can heal do melee and ranged dps. Loladins can heal tank and do melee dps. DKs and Warriors won't be any really needed class in the game and we'll just go back to try finding a place to OT>.>

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Originally Posted by Gaeldar

Totally agree with you. Druids can heal do melee and ranged dps. Loladins can heal tank and do melee dps. DKs and Warriors won't be any really needed class in the game and we'll just go back to try finding a place to OT>.>

yeah I agree, DKs and warriors need to be the best tank in game otherwise they are useless.

I mean paladins shouldn't be main tanks since they can dps and heal too.
Paladins shouldn't be main healers either since they can dps and tank.
Paladins shouldn't be main dpsers either since they can heal and tank.
Same for druids.

This user has been permanently banned because the moderator doesn't like warlocks.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

I'm pretty annoyed how fast BlizzCon sold, the website was down the entire day for here in Australia. I couldn't buy my ticket until I got to the page finally and it was sold out. I go on the General Discussion Forums/BlizzCon Forums and people are selling there tickets, makes me angry.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Originally Posted by ishy

yeah I agree, DKs and warriors need to be the best tank in game otherwise they are useless.

I mean paladins shouldn't be main tanks since they can dps and heal too.
Paladins shouldn't be main healers either since they can dps and tank.
Paladins shouldn't be main dpsers either since they can heal and tank.
Same for druids.

For druids in their current form where they can do near-top dps and near-top tankign with the same spec I4d agree.. But sayign a paladin can tank, dps and heal is bullshit.. in that comparison warriors can tank and dps too..
If you spec 100% for it and can't do anything else worth while during that spec.. you're supposed to be equal to the other people fillign that roll. Or do you realy want rogues to stand neck and shoulders above everyone elses dps caus we can 'only' dps? (we should btw, but only caus we don't buff anyone)

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Originally Posted by ishy

yeah I agree, DKs and warriors need to be the best tank in game otherwise they are useless.

I mean paladins shouldn't be main tanks since they can dps and heal too.
Paladins shouldn't be main healers either since they can dps and tank.
Paladins shouldn't be main dpsers either since they can heal and tank.
Same for druids.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Originally Posted by Boubouille

Likewise, your talent trees and core abilities aren't finished. Tanking (and PvP) need to have a lot of other pieces of the game in place before we can really get the numbers right. It's fine (useful even) to point out when you feel a particular ability, talent, class or build is too good or not good enough.

Okay then: Benediction. AFIAK, no spec actually 'wants' this. Seems like with the change in the seal system in WotLK, this will be even less useful. Just sayin.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

I don't agree with above posters that warriors should keep their positions as MT. It is about time that we lose that position, it has been almost 4 years that we are best at that. I, in fact, LOVE that other classes are getting changes that will help them tank as MT and 5/10 dungeons even more. Atleast i wont be asked every 5 minutes "Hey dude wanna tank HC <insert name here>".

What i WANT and HOPE for is that we get something as trade off for loosing postion as MTs. So far that didn't happend.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Originally Posted by enno

For druids in their current form where they can do near-top dps and near-top tankign with the same spec I4d agree..

As long as their tanking and melee dps specs are mostly populated from the same talent tree, there is no reason at all for druids to be equal to the other tanks in pure boss tanking ability since they will continue to be more beneficial to the raid if they switch to doing dps if any extra tanks aren't needed after clearing trash. I think it is perfectly acceptable for them to be sub par in both roles as long as they can easily switch from one to the other to fill the situational needs of the raid. Just have to make sure that they don't get stuck in the situation of "thanks for helping tank trash, but we really don't need you for the boss, so see you later," which they are already less likely to see than that extra prot warrior you brought along.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Tanks are the hardest people to find when forming groups to run things. I'm not talking end-game raiding, but regular 5-mans, heroics, and things of the sort.

I think the LFG QQ will greatly drown out all the warrior QQ and all four classes will achieve parity in tanking.

As for warriors complaining about druids and paladins being able to be tanks, DPS, or healers, and that they shouldn't be as good at tanking ... well, tough luck.

I've known some amazing DPS warriors that put out really good numbers. I'm not saying the DPS trees couldn't use some work, but do you honestly think blizzard has it all figured out yet?

Level 80 isn't even unlocked on the beta realms yet, and when it is, I expect all sorts of changes in classes.

I honestly can't see Death Knights being left in their current state at level 80. They have so many abilities that shut down different classes it isn't even funny. I can't imagine the 75% magic damage reduction bubble in arena. A guy playing around pillars? Just death grip him and yank him out into the open. Those are two abilities that I expect to get nerfed. My point is that they haven't even gotten to balancing around PvP and arena yet.

I don't think Blizzard is going to keep punishing hybrids for being hybrids, though. They seem to be looking at a particular spec and penalizing a spec based on whether or not it has utility or can be used for multiple purposes.

Also, if they implemented dual specs in such a way you can switch on the fly, there wouldn't be a need for prot DPS. I'd like the idea of switching between prot and DPS at well, depending on the situation. However, that seems really unlikely.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Originally Posted by Brickwall

Really why make only tanking "more fun", why not make dps "more fun". (Sorry i'm gonna skip part about making healing more fun).

Atm the game is lacking tanks, so making the tank role more attractive helps the game more in overall.
Being on my warrior alt (prot) i'm getting spammed with tank requests just because the game lacks them to much, everyone is a dps or healer (upswing sine they got spell dmg from healing) now days.

Originally Posted by ishy

yeah I agree, DKs and warriors need to be the best tank in game otherwise they are useless.

I mean paladins shouldn't be main tanks since they can dps and heal too.
Paladins shouldn't be main healers either since they can dps and tank.
Paladins shouldn't be main dpsers either since they can heal and tank.
Same for druids.

Just as valid reason as this:
Warriors shouldn't be able to be main tank because they cant heal.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

Originally Posted by bloodwine77

I don't think Blizzard is going to keep punishing hybrids for being hybrids, though. They seem to be looking at a particular spec and penalizing a spec based on whether or not it has utility or can be used for multiple purposes.

That's because things still need to remain equitable to all the other classes. For example, as long as feral dps druids still can provide buffs. battle rez and innervate to the raid, they should never be able to do equal pure dps to a rogue (and probably fury warriors) as well.

Re: Tanking in WotLK, Blizzcon, Blue posts

The warrior is far from finished yet - we're the class that got the least changes overall. My guess is, we'll see some huge warrior changes in the next few weeks wich will determine our future.
Personally I hope for getting the other tanking classes better with warriors still being the #1 MT class. Although there is the possibility that this won't happen - in that case they should buff us dps-wise. Not by letting us do even more damage (at a specific point furys get under the top3 damagedealers anyway, i for instance was putting out the by far most damage since our start in MH/BT), but by giving us more utility. That would mean taking away the increased damage taking penalty of zerk stance and giving us something that requires every raid to take atleast 2 dps warriors. Then I could live with not beeing the maintank, otherweise I vote for nerfing one spec of paladins and druids (e.g. their heal has to be reduced drasticly or their dps) to make it fair and have them QQ a little too