On May 5 at around 9:30 a.m., several teams of Pima County, Ariz., police officers from at least four different police agencies armed with SWAT gear and an armored personnel carrier raided at least four homes as part of what at the time was described as an investigation into alleged marijuana trafficking. One of those homes belonged to 26-year-old Jose Guerena and his wife, Vanessa Guerena. The couple's 4-year-old son was also in the house at the time. Their 6-year-old son was at school.

As the SWAT team forced its way into his home, Guerena, a former Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, armed himself with his AR-15 rifle and told his wife and son to hide in a closet. As the officers entered, Guerena confronted them from the far end of a long, dark hallway. <span style='font-size: 17pt'>The police opened fire, releasing more than 70 rounds in about 7 seconds, at least 60 of which struck Guerena.</span> He was pronounced dead a little over an hour later.

<span style='font-size: 17pt'>The Pima County Sheriff's Department initially claimed (PDF) Guerena fired his weapon at the SWAT team. They now acknowledge that not only did he not fire, the safety on his gun was still activated when he was killed. Guerena had no prior criminal record, and the police found nothing illegal in his home. After ushering out his wife and son, <u>the police refused to allow paramedics to access Guerena for more than hour, leaving the young father to bleed to death, alone, in his own home.</u> </span></div></div>

I hope those involved in this tragedy, get what they deserve for this.

No wonder, so many ethnic Americans in Arizona, are living in fear.

Racism? Obvious lies and a coverup by the police Department.

Sealing the records?

No neighbors heard the supposed sirens?

Disgusting! I hope they all go to jail!

G. </div></div>

So do I.

Sheriff Dupnik ... the same Dupnik who ignored the warnings prior to the Gabrielle Giffords shooting ... is an obvious incompetent and is running an obviously incompetent department.

How many innocents must die before this democrook is removed from office.

Soflasnapper

05-26-2011, 11:43 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> heriff Dupnik ... the same Dupnik who ignored the warnings prior to the Gabrielle Giffords shooting ... is an obvious incompetent and is running an obviously incompetent department.
</div></div>

You made that claim many months ago, based on a blogger's claims about people he refused to name, using documents they claimed to have but refused to show him. Which of course met your high standards of credible evidence, so you believe it entirely.

So far as I've heard, and I asked you for updates by bumping that thread, this claim remains unconfirmed by any evidence to this day. Unless you have it now?

You made that claim many months ago, based on a blogger's claims about people he refused to name, using documents they claimed to have but refused to show him. Which of course met your high standards of credible evidence, so you believe it entirely.

So far as I've heard, and I asked you for updates by bumping that thread, this claim remains unconfirmed by any evidence to this day. Unless you have it now? </div></div>

In a case decided yesterday, Kentucky v. King, the US Supreme Court has ruled that cops who smell marijuana coming from your home can break down your door and arrest you, just as long as they knock first and claim to have heard you destroying evidence.

<span style="color: #990000">They don’t need a warrant or probable cause, either.</span> <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Today in America, police can now randomly patrol neighborhoods and apartment complexes sniffing around for pot. When they smell it, they can knock on your door and then break it down, claiming they heard noises from within. </span></div></div> Free? (http://www.opposingviews.com/i/marijuana-smell-supreme-court-carpet-bombs-4th-amendment)

<span style='font-size: 14pt'> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,</span> and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
</div></div>

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................

Q

pooltchr

05-27-2011, 06:06 AM

And again, more evidence that the government is taking away more rights we have had in the past.

Is it any wonder that some of us are working to make government smaller, less intrusive, and less powerful?

My problem is with people who actually support giving MORE power to the government.

Maybe someone from the left can explain that kind of thinking.

Steve

Gayle in MD

05-27-2011, 09:40 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its not tragic its disgusting!
The guy is in his own home, with his family, when the police break into the wrong house and put 70 bullets into him. Then they hang around and let him bleed to death.

In a case decided yesterday, Kentucky v. King, the US Supreme Court has ruled that cops who smell marijuana coming from your home can break down your door and arrest you, just as long as they knock first and claim to have heard you destroying evidence.

<span style="color: #990000">They don’t need a warrant or probable cause, either.</span> <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Today in America, police can now randomly patrol neighborhoods and apartment complexes sniffing around for pot. When they smell it, they can knock on your door and then break it down, claiming they heard noises from within. </span></div></div> Free? (http://www.opposingviews.com/i/marijuana-smell-supreme-court-carpet-bombs-4th-amendment)

<span style='font-size: 14pt'> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,</span> and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
</div></div>

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................

Q </div></div>

Repiglican Governor in that state?

Wasn't it George Bush's Administration, who spied illegally on Americans? Broke the FISA laws, and was praised by the right, for doing it?

Spied, even on what Americans were taking out of the Libraries?

Even exposing the identity of a CIA, NOC, Agent? Treason?

Typical RW invasion of privacy. Even the homes of Americans, are no longer their private castles, yet, the right, continues to destroy personal rights, freedom of choice, the right to organize and negotiate, our rights to privacy, and the fourth Amendment, don't mean anything to RW Radicals, as long as they can assuage their insecurities, and fears, which drive them, with enough bullets to mow down twenty some people in under two minutes.
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It's hilarious to observe their bait and switch, BS....

They are the dictators in chief, yet they are the ones who are always yapping about Freedom, and the constitution.

A startling video depicts the event. It was taken from the head-cameras of one of the SWAT team members and shows a short warning siren followed by almost inaudible yells before the team breaks down the door and starts firing. The entire video is 54 seconds long, but in that time the SWAT team fires over 70 shots, 60 of which hit Mr. Guerna. </div></div>

Q

LWW

05-28-2011, 04:35 AM

Have you followed this guy's trial?

More to the point ... the left in collectivist lockstep followed their orders to defend Dupnik because Dupnik was blaming Palin-Limbaugh for the shooting.

Next, the left screwed up by attempting free thought and instinctively blamed the sheriff's department ... assuming it to be run by a conservative as is almost always the case ... not realizing they were actually criticizing Dupnik.

Now, in full spin mode, they again blindly defend Dupnik ... demanding that the evidence they just presented somehow no longer exists.

DOUBLETHINK is a terrible disease.

Qtec

05-28-2011, 05:02 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And again, more evidence that the government is taking away more rights we have had in the past. </div></div>

Its not Govt taking away rights, its the RW SC that that Bush put in place, with the GOPs approval I might add.

Q

LWW

05-28-2011, 06:22 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And again, more evidence that the government is taking away more rights we have had in the past. </div></div>

Its not Govt taking away rights, its the RW SC that that Bush put in place, with the GOPs approval I might add.

Q </div></div>

How exactly did they do that?

What part of the COTUS did they ignore?

What's that?

They followed the COTUS?

That's what pizzed the left off?

I already knew that.

eg8r

05-28-2011, 10:23 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its not tragic its disgusting!
</div></div>LOL, this is as tragic as it gets. You thinking any differently is disgusting.

You don't think that breaking down the wrong door, and killing the wrong man, was a loss of his rights, and a travesty committed, which denied him the freedom to live out his life?

Part of our freedoms, include being safe from illegal invastions inside of our homes. It's in the Constitution.

G.

eg8r

05-28-2011, 10:34 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't think that breaking down the wrong door, and killing the wrong man, was a loss of his rights, and a travesty committed, which denied him the freedom to live out his life?
</div></div>Do you want to debate your strawman or do you want to debate what I posted?

eg8r

Gayle in MD

05-28-2011, 10:36 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't think that breaking down the wrong door, and killing the wrong man, was a loss of his rights, and a travesty committed, which denied him the freedom to live out his life?
</div></div>Do you want to debate your strawman or do you want to debate what I posted?

eg8r </div></div>

I am debating what you posted.

G.

Sev

05-28-2011, 10:38 AM

Was it the IL or IA supreme court that just killed the 4th amendment in that state??

Cops now have Carte Blanche to break into your home.

The FEMA camps are now opening all across America.

eg8r

05-28-2011, 10:41 AM

No you didn't and it appears that you are not catching on. qtip said, "land of the free?". Just because these cops screwed up and killed an innocent our freedoms as a country, this would be the "land" part, are called into question? qtip tried to take one individual tragedy and question the freedoms of all Americans. I hope you are clear now.

What happen to that Marine was tragic, but our freedoms are intact.

eg8r

Gayle in MD

05-28-2011, 10:45 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No you didn't and it appears that you are not catching on. qtip said, "land of the free?". Just because these cops screwed up and killed an innocent our freedoms as a country, this would be the "land" part, are called into question? qtip tried to take one individual tragedy and question the freedoms of all Americans. I hope you are clear now.

What happen to that Marine was tragic, but our freedoms are intact.

eg8r </div></div>

When one of us isn't safe, and free, in their home, none of us is safe and free, in our homes.

G.

eg8r

05-28-2011, 10:48 AM

OK, well then bunker down and live in fear. I live in reality and know that my freedoms are in place and if someone acts against they will be dealt with.

eg8r

Gayle in MD

05-28-2011, 10:58 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, well then bunker down and live in fear. I live in reality and know that my freedoms are in place and if someone acts against they will be dealt with.

eg8r </div></div>

You just can't write a post, without a snark included.

Don't project your imagination upon me. I fear nothing.

In the true sense, however, what could happen in AZ, was not only a tragedy, but also a travesty against freedom and justice.

G.

Sev

05-28-2011, 11:01 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, well then bunker down and live in fear. I live in reality and know that my freedoms are in place and if someone acts against they will be dealt with.

eg8r </div></div>

Unfortunately this appears not to be single or rare occurrence. It is actually on the rise.
Errors in police judgement and or over reaction are costing otherwise innocent Americans their lives.

Unfortunately the media tends to bury the stories more often than not.

Soflasnapper

05-28-2011, 11:07 AM

Unfortunately, the courts (somewhere) just ruled that a homeowner has no right to resist even an unlawful mistaken entry of his home by police.

I blame the 'war on drugs' for much of this, and I don't discount racial profiling as a factor, with relation to the war on drugs.

Also note the CYA from the police-- they had to return fire after he shot at them-- which has now proven to be a false story. Safety on, no shots fired.

LWW

05-28-2011, 03:09 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, well then bunker down and live in fear. I live in reality and know that my freedoms are in place and if someone acts against they will be dealt with.

eg8r </div></div>

Unfortunately this appears not to be single or rare occurrence. It is actually on the rise.
Errors in police judgement and or over reaction are costing otherwise innocent Americans their lives.

Unfortunately the media tends to bury the stories more often than not. </div></div>

This is the inevitable result of the blind support of statism ... and was one of the key crimes that led to the revolution in America.

LWW

05-28-2011, 03:09 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unfortunately, the courts (somewhere) just ruled that a homeowner has no right to resist even an unlawful mistaken entry of his home by police.

I blame the 'war on drugs' for much of this, and I don't discount racial profiling as a factor, with relation to the war on drugs.

Also note the CYA from the police-- they had to return fire after he shot at them-- which has now proven to be a false story. Safety on, no shots fired. </div></div>

You made that claim many months ago, based on a blogger's claims about people he refused to name, using documents they claimed to have but refused to show him. Which of course met your high standards of credible evidence, so you believe it entirely.

So far as I've heard, and I asked you for updates by bumping that thread, this claim remains unconfirmed by any evidence to this day. Unless you have it now? </div></div>

And no matter how much data is put forth, you will willingly ignore it and lovingly embrace the party agenda of lie and deny:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The suspect in Saturday's shooting rampage in which a U.S. congresswoman was critically wounded was unstable and had been known to make death threats in the past, the local sheriff said.

The FBI is investigating whether the man is the same person who posted a rambling Internet manifesto accusing the government of mind control and demanding a new currency.

Jared Lee Loughner, 22, of Tucson, was taken into custody moments after the shooting at a political meeting held by Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords in a supermarket parking lot. Six people died and Giffords had a critical head wound. [ID:nN08246649]

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Sheriff Clarence Dupnik of Pima County, where the shooting happened, told reporters the suspect had a troubled past. "All I can tell you is that this person may have a mental issue," Dupnik said.

Dupnik said there had been earlier contact between Loughner and law enforcement after he had made death threats</span>, although they had not been against Giffords. He said the authorities believe he may not have been working alone. </div></div>

That was from the reich wing nut blog known as REUTERS. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/09/usa-shooting-suspect-idUSN0824904120110109)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TUCSON — The police were sent to the home where Jared L. Loughner lived with his family on more than one occasion before the attack here on Saturday that left a congresswoman fighting for her life and six others dead, the Pima County Sheriff’s Department said on Tuesday. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County. </div></div>

I am not 'taking one individual tragedy and question the freedoms of all Americans.'

They could have knocked on the door, rang the bell. Did they give ANY consideration to the rights of the occupiers?

Eh no.

You may have missed it but in the Bush years, your Con Rights have been eroded. The Govt can now break into your house when you are not there. Tap your calls, monitor your PC and bug the place, without a warrant.
If they decide you are a possible terrorist they can strip you of ALL your rights and lock you up somewhere indefinitely.

Q

Sev

05-29-2011, 07:22 AM

According to some that is what the FEMA camps are set up for. Concentration camps to exterminate the undesirables.

There is no doubt that our fundamental rights are being eroded. Eventually the do gooders of this country will have all our necks in a noose.

Gayle in MD

05-29-2011, 09:00 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not 'taking one individual tragedy and question the freedoms of all Americans.'

They could have knocked on the door, rang the bell. Did they give ANY consideration to the rights of the occupiers?

Eh no.

You may have missed it but in the Bush years, your Con Rights have been eroded. The Govt can now break into your house when you are not there. Tap your calls, monitor your PC and bug the place, without a warrant.
If they decide you are a possible terrorist they can strip you of ALL your rights and lock you up somewhere indefinitely.

Q </div></div>

We both tried to warn them that once their chimp was gone, and the Executive Power Grab, of the Bush Years, had taken hold, they weren't going to like it so much when a Democratic President, was in Bush's place.

No President relinquishes power, after it has been engineered into the standard, M.O. of the country.

They were all of it, and defending it, for eight years.

Now, they're clueless as to how their suddenly HATED Government, grew into what they have now.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

"Republicans are always saying that Government doesn't work, then they get into office, and prove it!"

B. Maher

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Sev

05-29-2011, 09:27 AM

Seems to me someone is suggesting that the Obama administration is abusing their power.

pooltchr

05-29-2011, 09:36 AM

No, that's not how she thinks.
She thinks that Obama is just taking advantage of the same things she spent 8 years complaining about when Bush did it.

It was bad when Bush did it, but it's good now that Obama is doing it.

And when Obama is gone, and another Republican is in the White House, it will be bad again.

If you try to find logic in her line of reasoning, you will be very frustrated. It all comes down to one simple thing in her very simple mind:

This was a sheriff's office operation. Hard to think of a way in which the federal government is responsible for running a local sheriff's office, but if you think that's true, let's here that theory. </div></div>

I was not addressing that. Please review Gayles post.

eg8r

05-29-2011, 08:45 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not 'taking one individual tragedy and question the freedoms of all Americans.'

They could have knocked on the door, rang the bell. Did they give ANY consideration to the rights of the occupiers?

Eh no.
</div></div>Yeah, going in on a drug raid or any other kind of raid really is not very nice. They should all be preempted with a nice phone call and an offer to bring dessert. Idiot!!!

eg8r

eg8r

05-29-2011, 08:47 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hard to think of a way in which the federal government is responsible for running a local sheriff's office, but if you think that's true, let's here that theory. </div></div>Well darn, sure would have been nice to see you open your mouth when qtip was foaming at the mouth question our freedom. This one sherriff's operation does not put any of our freedom in question but our village idiot could not see the forest for the trees.

eg8r

Qtec

05-29-2011, 11:31 PM

Did you read the link?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On May 5 at around 9:30 a.m., several teams of Pima County, Ariz., police officers from at least four different police agencies armed with SWAT gear and an armored personnel carrier raided at least four homes as part of what at the time was described as an investigation into<u> alleged marijuana</u> trafficking.</div></div>

Heavy.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The raids on the other homes carried out that same morning, all part of the same operation, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>resulted in no arrests and turned up little if any actual contraband.</span> (When police find illegal substances after these raids -- especially raids that end badly -- they usually quickly release that information.)

Moreover, if this was all about breaking up a dangerous home invasion ring, where are the suspects, and where is the evidence? According to an advocate for the Guerena family I spoke with this week, the police also mistakenly raided another home near Guerena's the same morning, and have since replaced that home's front door. Again, the Pima County Sheriff's Department is refusing comment, so I can't verify this allegation with them. <u>But police officials have admitted that even the Guerena warrant was only for his residence, not for Jose Guerena personally; his name doesn't appear anywhere on the warrants.</u> The police also concede they weren't aware that there was a child in the home at the time of the raid. Given all of this, it seems reasonable to question just how thorough this investigation really was. </div></div>

Why the swat team?

Q

LWW

05-30-2011, 03:19 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to some that is what the FEMA camps are set up for. Concentration camps to exterminate the undesirables.

There is no doubt that our fundamental rights are being eroded. Eventually the do gooders of this country will have all our necks in a noose. </div></div>

This was a sheriff's office operation. Hard to think of a way in which the federal government is responsible for running a local sheriff's office, but if you think that's true, let's here that theory. </div></div>

You are right, this isn't a Federal government issue, at all, but it is an issue of the Re[puglican Governorships, which, across the country, in most Republican states, has proven, they have adopted the same kind of Power Overreach, as practiced by the Bush ADministration throughout eight years.

The trend has been a a neocon trend, which began under Ronald Reagan, another non denial, denier.

In the case of this governor, known for her Death Panels, and herr heartless policies for the very ill in her state,
I'd say her racist attitudes have been pulled into question, more than once.

I'd be willing to bet, that the others, were also, of Mexican Descent.