That was a spiteful thing to do, but she was young and she was being tortured by Mary. The punishment hardly fits the crime -- esp. since everything has turned out so rosy for Mary who was hardly an innocent.

I too like the idea of Edith of doing something independent. I so see her as a suffragette! I have a feeling, though, that they've left her single to keep the door open for the return of "Patrick."

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I totally agree. Mary treated Edith like dirt on her shoes. I don't see Mary as a heroine in any way, shape or form.

well, a gentleman would have found an exit strategy BEFORE the wedding day itself.

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I was talking about Sir Richard Carlisle, Mary's fiance, who actually had plenty of right to be really ticked off, but instead of being angry, let alone using the mother of all blackmail subjects he was holding over her, he bowed out.

And I don't think either Mary OR Edith has covered themselves in glory in their relationship. While they've both been repeatedly "punished" for it, Mary's troubles generally have a direct, obvious, cause-effect (she realizes she's the one who's ruined things with Matthew, yes, by listening to terrible advice but she was free not to act on it, she thinks she's stuck with Sir Richard because of her own bad behavior-Edith may have blabbed, but Mary can't deny it's true) where Mary's bad decisions lead to her problems, Edith's suffering from disproportionate retribution in ways utterly unrelated to her own behavior.

I can't really see Edith as a suffragette (besides, we already did that trope with Sybil) and that also feeds the current-for-the-day stereotype that suffragettes were in fact ugly women who couldn't find a husband. But she really needs someone who genuinely appreciates HER, which is not easy when her own FAMILY seems constantly amazed she's not an emotionless doorstop=check out their reactions in series two when the visiting general praises her for her help with the soldiers and while HE and Dr. Clarkson (and Isobel, who might be overly crusading but isn't blind and generally gives credit where it's due) aren't at all surprised, her own family is stunned anyone even noticed Edith exists.

... But she really needs someone who genuinely appreciates HER, which is not easy when her own FAMILY seems constantly amazed she's not an emotionless doorstop=check out their reactions in series two when the visiting general praises her for her help with the soldiers and while HE and Dr. Clarkson (and Isobel, who might be overly crusading but isn't blind and generally gives credit where it's due) aren't at all surprised, her own family is stunned anyone even noticed Edith exists.

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Yes, that was a very telling moment, wasn't it?

Forgot to say earlier: I do think Edith has to take some responsibility for her latest misery, though. What on earth was she thinking, telling Sir Anthony on the eve of the wedding that she thinks of him as her "life's work," wanting to marry him because he's disabled? What man wants to hear that? Obviously there are worse reasons to get married, and I don't doubt Edith's affection for Anthony, but it's hardly a true-love-conquers-all situation.

That was a spiteful thing to do, but she was young and she was being tortured by Mary. The punishment hardly fits the crime -- esp. since everything has turned out so rosy for Mary who was hardly an innocent.

I too like the idea of Edith of doing something independent. I so see her as a suffragette! I have a feeling, though, that they've left her single to keep the door open for the return of "Patrick."

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Yeah, they definitely left the Patrick plotline open, and no soap opera would be complete without the disfigured beyond recognition/restored to unrecognizable state/amnesia victim/heir drama. I'd be surprised if he doesn't come back.

I, too, loved Edith's dress much more so than the completely ugly and unflattering dress of Marys. Hope Edith finds someone who is wonderful to her and for her, preferable an American.

Can't understand why they bothered bringing Martha Levinson's character onto the show if it was only for one episode and not a very good one at that. There was too little interaction between the Grand Dames to make the effort of Mama Levinson's presence worth the while. While I love, love, love, Shirley, I think that Tyne Daly would have been a better pick for the role because she truly has the "New York" attitude that character needed.

And now that Dan Stevens won't be back, what will they do with the character of Matthew for the future?

I am loathing the character of Mary more and more with every episode, if that is possible.

I'm constantly amazed by the Granthams' (dad and Mary) sense of entitlement. Hey, Matthew, I burned thru your mom-in-law's fortune through my own godawful stupidity and now I'm going to LET you invest in Downton. Nope, not a fan of pops and mary. I hope Edith gets happiness in some way. Am looking forward to Thomas getting his from O'Brien. I'd be happy to see him leave Downton. But every soap needs villians.

I'm constantly amazed by the Granthams' (dad and Mary) sense of entitlement. Hey, Matthew, I burned thru your mom-in-law's fortune through my own godawful stupidity and now I'm going to LET you invest in Downton. Nope, not a fan of pops and mary.

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I thought it was smart to have him as an investment partner. Since Daddy was able to be so foolish with his wife's money, having a partner who has equal say in the decision making will hopefully prevent it from happening again.

I thought it was smart to have him as an investment partner. Since Daddy was able to be so foolish with his wife's money, having a partner who has equal say in the decision making will hopefully prevent it from happening again.

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I think, to be fair, "unlucky" might be a better description than "foolish." By today's standards it is indeed foolish to put all your eggs in one basket, but in the time context of Robert's investment he was actually diversifying his portfolio by not tying it all up in the estate. As he said, everyone thought it was a good investment. And it really is all Canada's fault.

But I agree that the partnership makes good business sense. Though I predict some hefty disagreements about how to do things.

And, as I said before, I'm hoping that since they've already gone through the big-stock-market-loss storyline ... we won't see it again come 1929. (Because of course I hope the series stays around that long!)

I too liked Ediths dress much better than Marys.
I am getting very sick of Matthews attitudes. First he can't marry Mary because he feels its his fault the girl died and now he is just too gulity to take the money. Oh, isn't Matthew just so so self rightious. Blah.

I think, to be fair, "unlucky" might be a better description than "foolish." By today's standards it is indeed foolish to put all your eggs in one basket, but in the time context of Robert's investment he was actually diversifying his portfolio by not tying it all up in the estate. As he said, everyone thought it was a good investment. And it really is all Canada's fault.

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My brother (while I'm giving him a run in the ships department, he has forgotten more about the history of the railroads than I've ever known) had to explain to me why it was a particularly unfortunate investment and while they couldn't have known it was going to be THAT bad, they probably should have known it was not going to be a piece of cake (when "the head of one of the railroads involved died on the Titanic" is the LEAST of your problems....) While Robert couldn't have KNOW how horribly wrong it was going to go, he wasn't diversifying at all, as the solicitor points out--he sank all his money in one investment and, just like usually happens when you do that even now, it imploded.

I think the whole "you can INVEST in Downton" is a bit of face-saving on Robert's part (so he's got an investor, he isn't being bailed out) and a way to let Matthew feel he's putting his money into something, rather than giving it to his father-in-law.

But his solicitors advised him against the all-railroad investment. Not sure who the "everyone" else was, although Grantham referred to them. I'd be interested to know what % of Granthams-style estates' necessary income would come from tenant farmer rents. Any mega-Brit-estate experts out there? I agree - Matthew has a smart head on his shoulders. He should probably make ALL the decisions.

Interview with Lesley Nicol, aka Mrs Patmore, from CBC Vancouver radio yesterday. She's in town for filming an upcoming episode of Once upon a Time. She talks about the Downton experience and the effect its had on her and her career. She sounds like an absolutely lovely person.

I hope the link works: I know CBC video streaming is geoblocked but I'm not sure about their radio streaming.

I am getting very sick of Matthews attitudes. First he can't marry Mary because he feels its his fault the girl died and now he is just too gulity to take the money. Oh, isn't Matthew just so so self rightious. Blah.

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We shouldn't expect these people to act as we would now.
These attitudes/actions were accepted; and even expected, at the time.

We shouldn't expect these people to act as we would now.
These attitudes/actions were accepted; and even expected, at the time.

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I would hope for most people now days feeling at the VERY least ambivalent about taking the money (especially when he thought Lavinia's father had no idea his daughter wanted to cancel the wedding) would still be an acceptable, expected reaction. And I would hope the average person now wouldn't be standing at the grave of his fiancee going "Well, I really sorta wanted to marry you anyway, and now this solves everything--you can totally dump your fiance, too, right?"

Probably would be best to stay away from this thread, then. It's easy to let info slip, even when you are trying to be careful.

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The first post in this thread reads as follows -

Yes, yes, I know there's already a thread going, but I'm very much afraid of spoilers from our friends in the UK or those folks on this side of the pond who used other means to watch earlier. So if you'll indulge me ... can we have a separate thread here for those of us watching on the North American/PBS schedule?

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Thus, this thread is trying to be spoiler free. There is another thread about Downton if you would like to discuss everything.

I too liked Ediths dress much better than Marys.
I am getting very sick of Matthews attitudes. First he can't marry Mary because he feels its his fault the girl died and now he is just too gulity to take the money. Oh, isn't Matthew just so so self rightious. Blah.

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Edith looked stunning, but she seems mor free spriit than Mary , so the dress choices for each made sense to me. I was almost crying when sir Anthony left her at the alter I hope they find a good solid love interest for her , or as pp mentioned make her like Jane Austin or Beatrix potter and let her be successful in life on her own

Probably would be best to stay away from this thread, then. It's easy to let info slip, even when you are trying to be careful.

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FSUers have been careful and considerate enough not to ruin countless tv shows, movies and books before, so I don't see why it can't be done here. It's a real shame that someone who either didn't bother to read the topic and opening post of this thread or who thought they were being clever has ruined it for others.

FSUers have been careful and considerate enough not to ruin countless tv shows, movies and books before, so I don't see why it can't be done here. It's a real shame that someone who either didn't bother to read the topic and opening post of this thread or who thought they were being clever has ruined it for others.

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I can't figure out what someone was spoiled for openly, unless they completely disregarded one clearly-marked post with spoiler tags and a warning NOT to even hover over the link included. Everything NOT behind spoiler tags on this thread's already aired on PBS--if it's broadcast, it's fair game (someone opting to record and watch later should know better than to open the thread), if you don't want spoilers, don't click on spoiler tags.

FSUers have been careful and considerate enough not to ruin countless tv shows, movies and books before, so I don't see why it can't be done here. It's a real shame that someone who either didn't bother to read the topic and opening post of this thread or who thought they were being clever has ruined it for others.

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I can't figure out what someone was spoiled for openly, unless they completely disregarded one clearly-marked post with spoiler tags and a warning NOT to even hover over the link included. Everything NOT behind spoiler tags on this thread's already aired on PBS--if it's broadcast, it's fair game (someone opting to record and watch later should know better than to open the thread), if you don't want spoilers, don't click on spoiler tags.