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I have to agree with H on this one JC, as far as her fanaticism is concerned. I read once that dogma is just a collection of other people's ideas. You would think that doing so poorly she would take a less religious approach to her diet. It is also true that Fuhrman, Esselstyn and McDougall did not receive their information on stone tablets or in a book with golden pages or from any heaven- sent prophet. So it is incumbent upon everyone to do some of his own research and take stock of his own health.

Esselstyn has made a few changes in his recommendations as far as supplements are concerned. McDougall says that he holds certain opinions but reserves the right to change his mind should good solid research come up with something different.

Ultimately each person must decide for himself.

Bye the way. Debate is good. It is good to hear other ideas and to challenge one's own opinions. Often when we argue in favor of or against something it is not necessarily to challenge or promote one's own opinion but rather a means to search out a new idea or convincing argument that might make us change our own minds about something.

Did the author mention the Framingham study? Dr. Castelli says those with cholesterol numbers under 150 do not get heart attacks. (Actually there were about half a dozen with cholesterol under 150 who died from a heart problem but I do not think all of them had the problem of clogged arteries). About 35% of heart attacks are in those with cholesterol between 150 and 200. Withn the recommended level according to the Heart Association whose own diet does nothing but make someone feel he is following doctor's orders and taking care of himself. In my cardiac rehab class was a woman who started herself and her husband on the skim milk and skin off the chicken route after he had by pass surgery. He went on to have a second by pass and she was in rehab after her first bypass. Still skinning the chicken and drinking skim milk. Her comment? What? Give up meat??

Did the guy who wrote the book do his own study which showed that stuffing someone full of sat fat and cholesterol is beneficial and will not clog arteries.?

H, what do you consider a mixed and balanced diet? What kind of adaptation do non ruminants need? Did our primate ancestors have specially adapted digestive tracts?

The latest I have been reading is that it is precisely because plants have evolved so differently that they are safe to eat. Immune system disorders and other illnesses are due to animal proteins being so closely related to human proteins that they can end up places they shouldn't be.

Isn't the acidity of a carnivore's stomach acid about 10 times that of ours? One reason carnivores need such acidic stomachs to counteract the bacteria that they inevitably consume from eating dead and rotting carcasses. If plants are contaminated from e coli it is from water run off from animal feed lots or unsanitary practices of food handlers. How safe is animal food. It was different when I was young but now we are warned to well cook animal foods and sunny side up eggs are no longer safe to eat.

Don't worry, EG about coming down hard on H. Being very cerebral I am sure it has the same effect on him as water off a duck's back. But be very careful what you say to me because I am dainty and delicate and subject to the vapors. If you are going to post something harsh regarding me remember to first warn me so I can get my smelling salts.

It is interesting who calls himself a vegetarian. I posted on another group that clarence bass, a 75 year old body builder said in this month's article that he calls himself a vegetarian and eats chicken and fish (I forget if he eats any other animal flesh). So when someone says he is a vegetarian you have to wonder exactly what he is eating. Mr. Bass has said that he is on statins to keep his cholesterol low.

Yes, Heretic is really really smart so it is entirely possible that he could be right about many things. I believe somewhere in the China Study, Campbell says there is more of a correlation between animal protein and disease than fat and disease. Be that as it may, even if heart disease is caused by TMAO it is reported that vegans who abstain from meat (and the fat in it) do not have the type of bacteria colonized in their guts that meat eaters do.

I have seen a picture of a dinner plate containing H's food. I do not think even the fat soaked, cheese and lard laden hamburger scarfing patrons of the Heart Attack Grill in Las Vegas would eat a meal of 85% pure fat without the meat and cheese it comes with. It looks like H eats the part of the slice of meat that the rest of us, even the most committed SAD eaters would discard. I do not know how much meat H actually eats. I do not know if even the blubber eating Inuit of the far north eat as much fat as Heretic because I read that they prefer the muscle meat and feed the fat to their dogs (who only eat fat and snow) and in times of food scarcity only do they up their intake of the pure fat.

In cultures like the traditional asian cultures where meat and fish are occasional condiments added to an otherwise starch and vegetable diet it is possible that the gut has time to recover if indeed it is the TMAO that is causing obesity and heart disease.

So we know that Heretic and Jimmy Moore eat a diet of 85% fat. I do not know personally of any others. And of the two you can rely on H for doing what he says he is doing and maintaining his health.

Dr. Esselstyn actually recommends two tablespoons of flaxseed per day. This is what I have been adding to oatmeal and salad.I even have my doubts about this because fat is fat and this adds 8 grams in addition to the natural fats in fruits, vegetables starches and beans.

Dr. Esselstyn at one time recommended calcium supplements which he no longer does. In his book he recommends one tablespoon of flaxseed meal each day but now it is two. (I e mailed him and asked) So I am assuming that depending on whatever studies he is reading he changes his mind. Which is a good reason to not take everything even the diet gurus one respects as gospel because tomorrow there could be something new. I trust they are honest enough to change their minds should the evidence prove otherwise.

I am under the impression that it is the ratio of 6/3 that is important. You read all over the place that eating fish and nuts will prevent arhythmias and sudden death but they certainly did not in my case. So you can't believe everything you read.

Jeff Novick has explained in some cases that something might look like it improves a risk factor but --compared to what? For instance nuts improved risk factors but they compared nuts to a muffin made with sugar, flour etc. Olive oil lowers cholesterol compared to butter, but give olive oil to a no fat vegan and the cholesterol goes up.

So while sat fat might be better than polys as far as competing with omega threes, that doesn't mean they will not clog arteries for some other reason nor that they will allow blood to flow easily through capillaries.

This is not news. Atkins in his first book, I believe, tells people to go off his diet for a few days before a glucose tolerance test otherwise they will test diabetic. I wonder how the researchers would explain the fact that so many of the low carbers, even those with diabetes, have normal HbA1C numbers? I do know that many on the diabetes support groups report low numbers but a good many of them are on drugs and insulin. And some dispute the value of a glucose tolerance test. I would love to see a study of what happens over time with those diabetics on a lc/hf diet.

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