Well, I used to be Catholic, but I do not believe in "God" anymore. I didn't learn enough about the religion to know what happens when you die if you don't believe. Something about pergatory or something like that.

Purgatory is not biblical it's a wrong doctrine.Join a living church, a pentecostal church and start bible study.It will help you.I suggest you join The Redeemed Christian Church of God or any one close to you.

You will go nowhere. You will just[b] cease to exist[/b]. No fear, no damnation, nothing... Enjoy the time you have here on earth, It's the only one you'll get. You are incredibly lucky that you are alive. Out of the millions of sperms and eggs, faith chose [b]you [/b]to be born. be happy for this great fortune and try to live your life to it's fullest.

Well i can understand anyone's plight who doesnt believe in God for one reason or the other...but that doesnt chage the fact that he exists and it is imperative we live our life according to his statutes[i]...for it is appointed unto man to die once, after which Judgement...[/i] we dont just cease to exist when we depart here...there is a both a glorious world and a world of torment after death...God said to the israelites[i]...this day i set before you life and death but i advise you choose life...[/i]i know the world is hard and cruel but please rejoice because the Lord has overcome the world...if you have been hurt and disappointed...dont despair forever...pick up the little bits and pieces and face the challenge head on again...God is real...eternal blissful life and eternal life of torment are real also.

I will believe in God if you show me some solid evidence of his existence. There is none.The moment you start describing properties of God, he becomes self contradictory. All what is left in the end if faith in the unknown and unknowable.

chose the challenge nferyn...and the Lord himself will prove himself to you...not me because he is very willing to touch you now more than ever...i am serious...chose the challenge and let the Lord of lords reveal himself to you...i await a response.

chose the challenge nferyn...and the Lord himself will prove himself to you...not me because he is very willing to touch you now more than ever...i am serious...chose the challenge and let the Lord of lords reveal himself to you...i await a response.

You asked me for a solid proof of God's existence...now i cannot prove God to you, he will prove himself to you, so what i ask is in what way do you want God to prove himself to you?...but remember, you are not going to ask "let not there be another air crash" you are going to ask him to prove himself to you in specific area(s) of your life...and he will.

I still don't understand. I cannot find a way that God could prove himelf except by physically revealing himself, and even then I need to know for sure that I'm not hallucinating. All other events have a distinct possibility of happening without divine intervention, so these are not proof. Only if the chance of something happening is so astronomically small like walking through a wall (theoretically possible), would this be proof. I won't be that picky though, two independent events that have a 1/1000 chance of happening somewhere on this planet will do for me.

In one of your posts nferyn...you wrote this "Well, that's just me Didn't make myself " may i ask who made you? your parents? a game of chance? do you even know?

My parents definitely had something to do with it, they were the willing agents of the process so to speak That and the complex wonders of self organising systems in developmental biology (proximate/immediate cause)

Add to that millions of years of natural selection and genetic drift working on the early life forms. Which were by themselves a result of self organising organic materials that lead to a first replication mechanism (although we still haven't found an exact mechanism by which this last process took place) (ultimate cause)

Hmmm, your atheism deserves some prayerful consideration...even david yoder...a renowned atheist asked for a child for his wife...one who has had hysterectomy and oophorectomy (removal of the breast and both ovaries) shortly after they were married, and he would believe in God...nine months later a woman without a womb or ovaries conceived and bared a child...is that remote enough for you nferyn? but if it isnt yet you will believe in God if its the last thing you do because God knows your state of heart and wants to reach you...and when he does..you wont be able to argue it. do you know Tai Solarin did not die an atheist? and you are not even as convinced there is no God as he once did...i am hopeful for you. God exists...and rules in the affairs of men on earth, one major problem though is that to know him goes beyond seeing him walk through a wall...that sounds like circus...yet he does make provision for those whose initial sense sensitive to him is their 5 mortal senses.

tell me all you think you know about genetic drift you are hungry soul seeking the truth and you shall find it...and while we are at it...whenever you discover what the exact mechanism by which the last process took place...post it to me!!!

Hmmm, your atheism deserves some prayerful consideration...even david yoder...a renowned atheist asked for a child for his wife...one who has had hysterectomy and oophorectomy (removal of the breast and both ovaries) shortly after they were married, and he would believe in God...nine months later a woman without a womb or ovaries conceived and bared a child...is that remote enough for you nferyn? but if it isnt yet you will believe in God if its the last thing you do because God knows your state of heart and wants to reach you...and when he does..you wont be able to argue it. do you know Tai Solarin did not die an atheist? and you are not even as convinced there is no God as he once did...i am hopeful for you. God exists...and rules in the affairs of men on earth, one major problem though is that to know him goes beyond seeing him walk through a wall...that sounds like circus...yet he does make provision for those whose initial sense sensitive to him is their 5 mortal senses.

If both ovaries and breasts were removed, then it is still theoretically possible to bare a child if the egg was released just prior to the operation. Now it is just impossible to give birth to a child without a womb. If you could provide me of evidence of the fact that she bared a child without womb (not just an assertion), then I would definitely conclude that there is positive evidence that there may be a God at work

To come back to your point of a former atheist becoming a theist. I have not known one person who was atheist before that started believing in a theistic God. Some became agnostics and some pantheistic (I'm even close to that position), but nothing more than that. There are countless examples of theists that became atheists though. When you honestly take all the available evidence in consideration, you cannot but conclude that the God of the Bible does not exist.

tell me all you think you know about genetic drift you are hungry soul seeking the truth and you shall find it...and while we are at it...whenever you discover what the exact mechanism by which the last process took place...post it to me!!!

What would you like to know about genetic drift? I can point you to some very good sources that explain the mechanism (this is a good starter: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genetic-drift.html)As if I'm going to find that mechnism. I wish I were that brilliant I'm just a simple IT Project Manager/Project Planner. There are countless scientists working on the question of the origin of life who are far more qualified than I am.

You raise plausible arguments...but the bottomline is you want to come to know there is a God in heaven that rules in the affiars of men...you are not far from it...he will stop you short in your track soon enough that you will thank him did.

God exists...you wont find out only when it is too late...that is my prayer for you.

You raise plausible arguments...but the bottomline is you want to come to know there is a God in heaven that rules in the affiars of men...you are not far from it...he will stop you short in your track soon enough that you will thank him did.

God exists...you wont find out only when it is too late...that is my prayer for you.

I'm touched by your concern. I'm only affraid that I'm way too rational for this. I will tell you when I'm stopped short in my tracks though

and hey lest i forget...even if it were possible for an egg to be released just prior to the removal of the ovaries...which i dont think so then how will it be suspended for fertilization to take place? well lets assume is got suspended somehow...do you know the life span of every egg shed? 12 to 24hrs max...after which it dies...if it were shed before the ovaries were removed, she would be in the hospital long enough post-operatively for the egg to die a natural death...everything points to it that it is impossible to conceive with such a scenario...but as for the proof which you ask me to back it up with...id see what i can exhume and post to you.

Obviously your knowledge of all things medical far exceeds mine. I was just making an assumption based on incomplete information on my part.. It's quite improbable that a conception would happen under these circumstances.

''Purgatory is not biblical it's a wrong doctrine.Join a living church, a pentecostal church and start bible study.It will help you.I suggest you join The Redeemed Christian Church of God or any one close to you.''- GREATPETER.

This does not sound like Christ teaching.Can a blindman lead a blindman?

[QUOTE]Only if the chance of something happening is so astronomically small like walking through a wall (theoretically possible), would this be proof.I won't be that picky though, two independent events that have a 1/1000 chance of happening somewhere on this planet will do for me.[/QUOTE]U expect a human to walk through a wall to believe in GOD. Is the human GOD? GOD isnt a clown. His actions albeit supernatural are usually rational because its always to better someones life not some useless circus or magical shows.

Science discoveries only show how GOD made us. Scientists are yet to proove that there was no beginning.

[QUOTE]Now it is just impossible to give birth to a child without a womb. If you could provide me of evidence of the fact that she bared a child without womb (not just an assertion), then I would definitely conclude that there is positive evidence that there may be a God at work[/QUOTE]I have seen a woman without a womb give birth. A lot happen even in the medical field (where i belong) that are beyond doctors. Read books by 1 of the world's best Neurosurgeons- Ben Carson and u'll be more enlightened. The fact remains that most athiests explain out the existence at every instance. A lot are irrational about their rationality. Even if i show u a scan of the woman's reproductive viscera, you'll probably waive it off as a faulty machine or that d womb is probably somewhere or some other organ took over the function. You just wont believe.There are numerous cases of such happenings around but u see them only if u want to because people believe only what they want to believe. JUST A VISIT FROM GOD WOULD CHANGE UR THINKING. He prolly hasnt paid that visit because he knows you wont acknowlegde him as GOD.

U expect a human to walk through a wall to believe in GOD. Is the human GOD? GOD isnt a clown. His actions albeit supernatural are usually rational because its always to better someones life not some useless circus or magical shows.

No, I just give an example of something that is so improbable that it would lead me to conclude that a force exists that escapes natural laws, i.e. a God.Just give me examples of these rational actions that you can uniquely attribute to a God (absence of evidence to the contrary does not count, I'm talking about positive evidence)

layi:

Science discoveries only show how GOD made us. Scientists are yet to proove that there was no beginning.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here, layi. Can you explain?

layi:

I have seen a woman without a womb give birth. A lot happen even in the medical field (where i belong) that are beyond doctors. Read books by 1 of the world's best Neurosurgeons- Ben Carson and u'll be more enlightened. The fact remains that most athiests explain out the existence at every instance. A lot are irrational about their rationality. Even if i show u a scan of the woman's reproductive viscera, you'll probably waive it off as a faulty machine or that d womb is probably somewhere or some other organ took over the function. You just wont believe.

No, layi, I will believe if you show me positive, conclusive evidence. How come no skeptic to date has been convinced? The burden of proof they expect is not insurmountable, it is exactly what you would expect of scientific evidence. Anecdotes are no evidence.

One thing more about the medical field: it is applied science. It's relation to biology is similar as that between engineering and physics. Fundamental knowledge from biology gets applied in medicine. The further our biological knowledge reaches, the more we can explain phenomena doctors have to deal with. And, as the Russion theologist Theodosius Dobzhansky said: Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution

It is indeed a fact that some organs (I use the term loosely here) are readopted to perform a function they did not evolve to perform before. there are countless examples of that in people with brain damage, where certain parts of the brain are re-adapted to perform the function of the part of the brain that got damaged. Obviously this can only happen to a certain degree. I cannot see a woman without a womb giving birth to a healthy child.

layi:

There are numerous cases of such happenings around but u see them only if u want to because people believe only what they want to believe. JUST A VISIT FROM GOD WOULD CHANGE UR THINKING. He prolly hasnt paid that visit because he knows you wont acknowlegde him as GOD.

This is circular reasoning. I'm open to all experiences as long as they meet the burden of proof you would require for scientific findings. In general ascribing a phenomenon you cannot otherwise explain to a divine intervention is sloppy reasoning. You should just say that you don't know. This [i]God of the gaps [/i]argument is losing more and more appeal, as more and more of these gaps are being filled with scientific knowledge. the God of the gaps is an ever shrinking being.

No, layi, I will believe if you show me positive, conclusive evidence. How come no skeptic to date has been convinced? The burden of proof they expect is not insurmountable, it is exactly what you would expect of scientific evidence. Anecdotes are no evidence.

In general ascribing a phenomenon you cannot otherwise explain to a divine intervention is sloppy reasoning. You should just say that you don't know.

Methinks those 2 quotes are contradictory. First you would believe if there was proof of an external force intervening. Yet u still say , in such instance, we shoulnt attribute them to an external force but such say we don't know. What proove do you need them? You want to see GOD face to face?

I have no idea what you're trying to say here, layi. Can you explain?

I meant- Is there any scientific finding that suggest that there was no beginnin of existence (animate or inanimate). Do science believe in existence ad infinitum (FROM INFINTY)?If life according to some scientists evolve from inanimate objects on d 2nd and third plane (atoms, particles etc), where do this objects originate from? Someone Triggered existence and thats GOD who lives outside Time.

Methinks those 2 quotes are contradictory. First you would believe if there was proof of an external force intervening. Yet u still say , in such instance, we shoulnt attribute them to an external force but such say we don't know. What proove do you need them? You want to see GOD face to face?

No, they're not contradictory. in the first instance, I would not exclude the possibility of an external force intervening. This would be a first step toward proof. Now if you want to know whether or not a God exists, you need to start by defining the attributes of God and from these attributes, you define the attributes (or combination thereof) that uniquely defines God. Evidence to these unique attrutes is evidence of the existence of God.

layi:

I meant- Is there any scientific finding that suggest that there was no beginnin of existence (animate or inanimate). Do science believe in existence ad infinitum (FROM INFINTY)?If life according to some scientists evolve from inanimate objects on d 2nd and third plane (atoms, particles etc), where do this objects originate from? Someone Triggered existence and thats GOD who lives outside Time.

Beginning or existence are just concept that our feeble minds use to describe events in the space-time continuum. We see things linearly, because our mind is conditioned to do so. We just don't know, people are trying to twist reality to fit their perceptive or cognitive framework. E.g. it is hard for us to imagine how bats see using sound. Our sensory organs are not equiped to do so and our cognitive pathways are not equiped to model it..You could also say that existence just is. And if you're pushing this linear thinking to it's logical conclusions, what then created God. If nothing did, you're just adding another layer of redundant noise to your understanding of things.

There is no compulsion in religion. Whether you want to believe in God or not is up to you and only your intentions (good or bad) will decided where you end up. If you seek to know the truth (by seeking knowledge) about God, life after death and why you are in this world, then it is only HE who created us that can lead you to that direction and opens your eyes and heart to make you understand what you are reading.

"Shall We treat those who believe and do good deeds of righteousness, the same as those who spread corruption (do mischief) on earth? Shall We treat those who guard against evil (pious), the same as those who turn aside from the right (wicked)?"

Quran Chapter 28

Almighty Allah states in the Holy Qur’aan:

"I swear by the Day of Resurrection; and I swear by the self reproaching person (a believer). Does man (a disbeliver) think that We shall not assemble his bones? Yes, we are able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers. Nay! man denies reserruction and Reckoning. So he desires to continue commiting sins. He asks: "When will be this Day of Resurrection?" when the sight is dazed, and the moon will be eclipsed, and sun and moon are united(by going one into the other or folded up or deprived of their light etc). On that day man will cry: "Where (is the refuge) to flee!" No! there is no refuge! Unto your Lord alone will be the place of rest that Day. On that day man will be informed of what he sent forward (of his eivil or good deeds), and what he left behind (of his good or evil traditions). Nay! Man will be a witness against himself [as his body parts (skin, hands, legs etc.) will speak about his deeds] Though he may put forth his excuses (to cover his evil deeds)."

Chapter 75 1-15

Does man think that he will be left uncontrolled, (without purpose)? Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)? Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did ((Allah)) make and fashion (him) in due proportion. And of him He made two sexes, male and female. Has not He, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?

I agree with you there...there is no compulsion in religion but then we are not propagating religion here...its getting someone to see what he is not seeing...the signs and the hands of God...that he exists in every facet of our life...however it is written "God would have every man to come to the knowledge of him" so in as much it is his decision ultimately yet it is my duty to make him see what he seem not to be seeing...because God wants everyone to know him.

Now, assuming there is an omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good God that gave me free will. Why would that God give me the cognitive abilities to interpret the world around me, not leave me any solid evidence of his existence and allow countless bad things to happen to the world? Considering these premisses, being limited in my abilities, living life to the best of my abilities, doing good when I have the opportunity, I do not see anything that conclusively leads to evidence of his existence.Why would that God not accept me, why would he lead me to the torment of hell?