The following marriage notice indicates an intriguing intermarriagewith the De Ridder family by a member of a family related to me (mygreat-grandfather's 2nd cousin), Stephana Augusta Plummer* (daughterof Thomas Plummer, gent., of Holdcroft House, Broad Blunsdon,Highworth, Wilts., by his wife Catherine nee Taylor)(Thomas Plummer,bt. 1811, Garsdon, Wilts., d. Nov. 1870, was the son of John Plummer,gent., of Siddington, Glos., and his wife, Mary Matthews. This lattercouple are ancestors of the late Lord Plummer of St Marylebone. Johnwas a younger brother of my ancestor Richard Plummer (1773-1824), ofPurton and Lydiard Tregoz, Wilts.)

I wonder if the De Ridder claims to such a title have any merit? Theorigins are said to be so ancient (A.D. 780, but also 1711) as to befabulous.

TIA,

Richard

The Bristol Mercury and Daily Post, Thursday, 10 May 1894, issue 14351"MARRIAGES""DE RIDDER - COLMAN -- On May 9th at the Abbey Church, Bath, by theRev. Thomas K. Allen, of Clifton, Louis Edward de Ridder, of Newburyhouse, Clifton, member of the ancient Marquisate family de Renesquieude Bourbourg et de Monthiver to Stephana Augusta Colman, of Erlestoke,Clifton, widow of the late E. S. [Edward Stone] Colman, and seconddaughter of the late Thomas Plummer, of North Wilts. No cards."

This set me looking for the roots of this claim. I have dredged up afair amount in English publications, but have found littlecorroboration in French ones. Is this a case of La Fausse Noblesse orLa Noblesse d'Apparence?

There is a passing reference to Louis Edouard de Ridder de Mont Hiver,Marquis de Renezcure and Baron de Bourbourg et Mont Hiver in Crisp's"Visitation of England and Wales", vol. 6, p. 83, under Smith,formerly of Sidbury Hall, Salop.

The 1851 census of Westbury-on-Trim, Clifton, Bristol, shows this man,as Louis E. De Ridder, aged 69, born at Renescure, Dept de Nord,France, a French teacher, with wife, Margaret (nee Thomas), and threegrandchildren (sired by his sons, Edouard, the elder son, anarchitect, and Louis, the younger, a land surveyor and engineer, whowere absent. I think there may have been a third son, Louis CharlesHenry De Ridder, born circa 1817-18 at Bedminster, Somerset, whomarried Victoria Constance Granara and had issue too, but only hisprofession (surveyor and civil engineer) and the area he was born inhint at this).

"The Proceedings of the Huguenot Society of London" (vol. 7, 1905, p.21) show that one grandson, not mentioned in the 1851 census, namedLouis Edouard/Edward De Ridder (1846-1935) was elected a member in1890. Included in his entry is a list of what look like the surnamesof his French Flanders kinfolk with the implication that some if notall of them were also noble, viz.:

Then there are various other newspaper accounts and Britishpublications which include bits about this family and its claims ofancient French noblesse:

Western Daily PressMonday, 6 April 1868, p. 4, col. 2"MARRIAGES. On the 11th January, at the British Legation, Lima, Peru,by the Rev. Josh. Henry, EDWD. CROKER DARTNELL, Esq., to ELLEN ALICE,second daughter of the late EDWARD DE RIDDER, C.E., of Clifton, andgranddaughter of the Marquis Louis Edward de Renezcure, of Bourborg,in France."

Western Daily PressThursday, 26 March 1914, p. 12, col. 5"DEATHS. DE RIDDER. -- March 24, at Redland, Caroline,great-granddaughter of John Bartholomew De Ridder, Marquis et Baillide Renescure, who was killed during the Revolution at the retreat ofNeville, defending the Dauphin of France. Aged 70." [This is quite aclaim to fame if true.]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/54152204?searchTerm=deridder&searchLimits=l-australian=yThe Register News-Pictorial (Adelaide, SA : 1929 - 1931) Friday 10October 1930 p. 23De Ridder-Cherrv WeddingThe altar at St. George's, Goodwood, was decorated with arum lilies,and the chancel massed with roses, yesterday morning, for the NuptialMass and wedding of Vivian Denning, youngest daughter of Mr. and Mrs.J. Cherry, of Robert street, North Unley, with the Rev. Louis Edwardde Ridder. only son of Louis Edward de Ridder (Le Comte de Renezcure),of Newbridge Towers, Bath (Eng.). Canon P. W. C. Wise officiated. Thebride, who was given away by her father, wore a frock of richparchment duchess satin, shirred on the tight-fitting bodice, and withlong tight-fitting sleeves, the flared skirt was slightly trained, andarranged at the waist with a deep flounce of Bruges lace. A courttrain, of cream chenille em bossed tulle over pink georgette hung fromthe shoulders, and a parchment tulle veil, arranged by a wreath oforange blossom, fell in misty folds to the floor and formed a train.She carried a lovely shower bouquet of white flowers wtih a touch ofpink.TWO MAIDS WORE PINK Two attendant maids were Misses DorothyBartholomaeus and Nanette Whereat, in shrimp pink georgette, theformer wearing a long flounced frock with long tight sleeves, thelatter a flared frock, sleeveless, and with a cape. Their hats werepicture shape in beige straw. Each wore the bridegroom's gift of astring of pearls and carried bouquets of pink sweet peas andcarnations with blue forget-me-nots. Mr, Frank Tomkinson was best man.Mr. and Mrs. Cherry held a reception at heir home after the ceremony.Mrs. Cherry was in copper silk-jersey, made with a full flared skirt,and worn with a jacket to match; black ballibuntal hat; anautumn-tinted posy was carried. The house was massed with beautifulflowers, roses being arranged in the drawing room, and a glory ofGawler pink sweet peas, heuchera and maidenhair fern in the livingroom, where the wedding tea was served. The bride travelled in a suitof blue wool, crepe-de-chine, with maize coloured blouse and bluepanamalac hat.The Rev. and Mrs. L. E. de Ridder leave shortly for Colombo, en routefor Darjeeling (India), where they will stay about two months and thengo on to London. After the ceremony a cable arrived from hebridegroom's father, who is aged 82.— .LADY KITTY.

Mr De Ridder had been a Brother in an Anglican order for some yearsduring his time in Australia. He was Stephana Augusta`s only child byL.E. De Ridder. In 1931, he became Vicar of St Martin`s Roath, nearCardiff. There were two daughters of the marriage, Helen Eugene (notEugenie) Vivian (b. 1931), and Angela (b. 1934). The family returnedto Australia in 1936. Mrs De Ridder died in 1950, and Mr De Ridder,who seems to have given up being a clergyman in Australia, remarriedto Kathleen Inman. He died in 1970. His daughters are my 87-year-oldmother`s fourth cousins. I lost track of them after a return sailingto Australia from Britain with their parents in 1947. There seem,however, to be descendants of the possible third son of the originalFrench immigrant De Ridder to Britain now settled in New South Walesas their genealogy is among the Public Members trees posted onancestry.com.

Western Daily PressTuesday 13 January 1931, p. 5, col. 7headline: Local Notes and Topics"A Wedding Group.A wedding group on our picture page to-day will interest many oldBristolians. The bridegroom is the son of Mr. Louis de Ridder, who,thirty odd years ago, was a very well-known personality in Bristol'spublic affairs, and especially during the controversy that ragedaround the dockisation of the river Avon. Columns and columns ofcorrespondence appeared in our columns on this subject, and Mr. deRidder's name appeared at the end of many of the letters. For someyears now he has been residing at Newbridge Towers, Bath, but stillpreserves his interest in Bristol and, he informs us, as a regularreader of the Western Daily Press, keeps in touch with municipal andother affairs in the city.""The de Ridder Family.There is a romantic association with Mr. de Ridder's family history.He still preserves a letter from his father written 60 years ago,recounting the discovery of documents giving authentic proof that Mr.de Ridder's great-grandfather was the head of one of the "oldest,noblest, and richest families of France." The letter referred tostates: "The packet contained also deeds and paper belonging to theestate of Renescure. And father, when he took Edward and I to seeFrance in 1825, also took see the place and I can just recollect animmense, large castle and fish pond. All this was the value of 200,000frs. a year, which, when you consider that at that time, 1794, a francrepresented a pound English, was a very large fortune.""Prisoner at Frenchay.The letter continues "There was the first Patent of Nobility, datingfrom 780, for saving the life of Charles Martel, then King of what wascalled France (but only a small part of France today) at the battle ofNeustrie, down to the date of 1711, when my father's grandfather wascreated Marquis de Renescure etc., which Patent of Nobility is stillin existence to-day. My grandfather was taken prisoner by the Englishwhilst fighting two British frigates. He found that his frigate wassinking. So to save the lives of his officers and men he surrendered,and became a prisoner on parole, at Devonport, then at Brecon, inWales, where he married and had two sons. He eventually wastransferred to Frenchay near Bristol. His war friends made him Frenchmaster at Bishop's College, top of Park Street, Bristol. He died atClifton, and my dear mother buried him in Clifton churchyard." Thisbit of family history indicates the ups and downs of fortune in 18thcentury France."

"At the Port of Bristol: Members and problems, 1848-1890." 42W. G. Neale, Port of Bristol Authority, 1968, p. 152quoting "Contemporary Biographies: Bristol in 1898", vol. 1, p. 91Louis EDWARD DE RIDDER, Chateau de Renescure, Bournemouth. Born atLympsham, near Weston-super-Mare; educated partly at Western and partly atBristol. (Named Louis Edward after his grandfather, who was navalaide-decamp toNapoleon I, and a member of one of the oldest noble families of FrenchFlanders,patents of nobility granted A.D. 780, for saving the life of the thenKing of Franceat the battle of Neustrie). Came to Bristol in 1872, and sooninterested himself in the question of dockising the river Avon;opposed the Docks Bill of 1892, and submitted to the Council plans fordockisation, which allowed for the safe berthing at Bristol of vesselsfrom 450 to 500 and 550 feet in length; in 1893 sought the suffragesof the Clifton Ward as candidate for the City Council, and fought twoelections, polling 511 votes on the first occasion, and 858 on thesecond, when he was defeated by only five votes. Putting up again in1894, purely on the dockisation ticket, he secured a majority of 500votes. Though not now in the Council, Mr. de Ridder still presses hisscheme as the most advantageous which could be adopted."

A slight expansion on this is available here (though the text isgarbled, but I have included a better URL later):http://booksnow2.scholarsportal.info/ebooks/oca5/30/lescahiersdelafl01sainuoft/lescahiersdelafl01sainuoft_djvu.txtDigitized by the Internet Archive in 2009 with funding from Universityof Ottawa

I can find precious little about the existence of such a marquisate(and it seems significant that the very man who is called Marquis andBailli in an English text is only called Bailli here), or the alliedcountship and baronage. There seems to be some playing fast and loosewith the titles in terms of which ones are being used in which way. Tomy eyes, this gives the appearance of evolving and inconsistentclaims, though I know Continental usages differed a great deal fromBritish ones. I wonder if anyone can verify or explode these claimsdefinitively?

Thank you in advance,

Richard:)Vancouver, British Columbia, CANADA

P.S.* I only discovered two days ago that Stephana Augusta Plummer and herelder sister Mary Eugenia Plummer were the subject of a very unusualand rather salacious lawsuit in 1860 involving a clergyman, the Rev.Mr Hatch.Two books have been written about it.1. Henry’s Trials, by Peter Maggs, published by Mirli Books Ltd, 2009,ISBN 978-0-9562870-0-7

2. The Ordeal of the Revd. Henry J. Hatch of Walton-on-Thames: No. 34:An Extraordinary Tale of Victorian Criminal Justice, by John Pulford,published by the Walton & Weybridge Local History Society, 2010, ISBN978-0-901524-29-4

Post by Richard CarruthersI wonder if the De Ridder claims to such a title have any merit? Theorigins are said to be so ancient (A.D. 780, but also 1711) as to befabulous.

<snip>

I am convinced that all the claimed titles are a fantasy. I can find no de Ridder nobility, nor any Marquis of Renescure, nor de Ridder owning at Renescure castle, no de Ridder de Renescure with arms, nothing under the Flemish spellings, etc.

Without going into excess detail on earlier lords of Renescure, (Commynes in the 15th century, de Brosse, Montmorency in the C17th, Tavernes in the C18th) the estate was sold 1786 to Edouard Désiré Lefebvre de Halle. He was the seigneur in 1798 – see «Catalogue des gentilshommes d'Artois, Flandre et Hainaut qui ont pris part ou envoyé leur procuration aux assemblées de la noblesse pour l'élection des députés aux États généraux de 1789 / publ. d'après les procès-verbaux officiels», ed. de La Roque and de Barthélemy, pub 1865, p 22 (Catalogue des Gentilshommes de Flandre. Bailliage de Bailleul):http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k204822d/f21From whose family the estate passed to the haute bourgeois family of Benard de Renescurehttp://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k111996v/f332

Most suggestive of de Louis Edward de Ridder's willingness to consider fantasy are a few letters that he wrote to Lord Newborough, the letters now preserved in the Wynne papers at the Gwynedd archives, regarding the allegations around the 1773 parentage of Louis Philippe. (The wonderful fiction which also relates to Newborough described in The Annual Register of World Events: A Review of the Year 1825, pub 1826:http://books.google.be/books?id=a5Q-AAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA30&lpg=RA1-PA29#v=onepage&q&f=falseand discussed in Michaud: “The private and public life of Louis Philippe of Orleans ex-King of the French”, trans Chemery, London 1851, pp 4 et seq.:http://books.google.com.au/books?id=6CgKAAAAIAAJ

De Ridder's correspondence in the Gwnedd archives( http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/DATRhagorolNET/Default.aspx?iaith=en ):

XD2/4168COPY LETTER: L.G. De Ridder, Bishop’s College, Bristol, to Lord [Newborough]. The French government is to consider acting on a report of a French jurist of repute re the claims of Maria Stella; this would facilitate getting rid of the factious Orleanist party, but in order to take it out of the realms of party, it would be better if his Lordship were to act on the report, as he, by the jurist’s report, is sole heir to the houses of Orleans and Penthèvre. The times are changed since his Lordship’s late mother lost a lot of money trying to prove matters, as the influence of the government would now be on his side. [N.L.W. Bodfean 76/13 pt..]XD2/4169ENVELOPE and COPY DECISION: Louis Edouard de Ridder, Professor at the Episcopal College of Bristol to Lord Newborough. The decision of a French lawyer, ?Ecuery, on the evidence relating to the case of the Modigliana exchange. French. Endorsed: (In English) ’A copy of the decision of one of the most clever jurists in France. The French Government intended to act upon it to get rid of the Orleanists.’ [N.L.W. Bodfean 76/13 pt..]http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/datrhagorolnet/RhestrEitem.aspx?iaith=en&rhif_archif=12&rhif_rhiant=65400&maint_testun=100&cyferbyniad=XD2/4170COPY LETTER: L.G. De Ridder, Bishop’s College, Bristol, to Lord [Newborough]. He has received his Lordship’s letter with its unsatisfactory reply, but he wishes to make some observations on the document he sent his Lordship. He does not know of any document in the possession of the French government which contradicts those considered by the lawyer who has been consulted. Great stress is also laid on the fact that the British government has authorised his Lordship to include in his coat of arms, the arms of the House of Orleans, and this alone would be enough to set the French taking proceedings against the 'usurpers'. It is felt better for his Lordship to take the initiative as it is a private matter which could be decided by the usual tribunals, over which the government would exercise some influence. If done by a Bill before the National Assembly, the matter would become a political struggle, and if the domains got into the hands of the government, it would be as difficult to claim them from there as from the ’usurpers’. The prize is worth the risks and expense, and if there is no direct proof, then this affects both sides equally. [N.L.W. Bodfean 76/14.]

Thank you very much for taking the time to look into this. It'sgratifying to have my suspicions pretty much confirmed.

It's curious that there was some intimation of a second patent datingfrom 1711. I wonder if that was a real document of some kind or justanother layer in the story.

It occurred to me that there could have been some sort of Napoleonictitle conferred, perhaps personal nobility rather than hereditarynoblesse. Could such an item slip between the cracks as far aspublished records are concerned? Just an thought.

de Renescurehttp://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k111996v/f332Most suggestive of de Louis Edward de Ridder's willingness to considerfantasy are a few letters that he wrote to Lord Newborough, the letters nowpreserved in the Wynne papers at the Gwynedd archives, regarding theallegations around the 1773 parentage of Louis Philippe. (The wonderfulfiction which also relates to Newborough described in The Annual Register ofhttp://books.google.be/books?id=a5Q-AAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA30&lpg=RA1-PA29#v=onepage&q&f=falseand discussed in Michaud: “The private and public life of Louis Philippe ofhttp://books.google.com.au/books?id=6CgKAAAAIAAJDe Ridder's correspondence in the Gwnedd archivesXD2/4168COPY LETTER: L.G. De Ridder, Bishop’s College, Bristol, to Lord[Newborough]. The French government is to consider acting on a report of aFrench jurist of repute re the claims of Maria Stella; this would facilitategetting rid of the factious Orleanist party, but in order to take it out ofthe realms of party, it would be better if his Lordship were to act on thereport, as he, by the jurist’s report, is sole heir to the houses of Orleansand Penthèvre. The times are changed since his Lordship’s late mother lost alot of money trying to prove matters, as the influence of the governmentwould now be on his side. [N.L.W. Bodfean 76/13 pt..]XD2/4169ENVELOPE and COPY DECISION: Louis Edouard de Ridder, Professor at theEpiscopal College of Bristol to Lord Newborough. The decision of a Frenchlawyer, ?Ecuery, on the evidence relating to the case of the Modiglianaexchange. French. Endorsed: (In English) ’A copy of the decision of one ofthe most clever jurists in France. The French Government intended to actupon it to get rid of the Orleanists.’ [N.L.W. Bodfean 76/13 pt..]http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/datrhagorolnet/RhestrEitem.aspx?iaith=en&rhif_archif=12&rhif_rhiant=65400&maint_testun=100&cyferbyniad=XD2/4170COPY LETTER: L.G. De Ridder, Bishop’s College, Bristol, to Lord[Newborough]. He has received his Lordship’s letter with its unsatisfactoryreply, but he wishes to make some observations on the document he sent hisLordship. He does not know of any document in the possession of the Frenchgovernment which contradicts those considered by the lawyer who has beenconsulted. Great stress is also laid on the fact that the British governmenthas authorised his Lordship to include in his coat of arms, the arms of theHouse of Orleans, and this alone would be enough to set the French takingproceedings against the 'usurpers'. It is felt better for his Lordship totake the initiative as it is a private matter which could be decided by theusual tribunals, over which the government would exercise some influence. Ifdone by a Bill before the National Assembly, the matter would become apolitical struggle, and if the domains got into the hands of the government,it would be as difficult to claim them from there as from the ’usurpers’.The prize is worth the risks and expense, and if there is no direct proof,then this affects both sides equally. [N.L.W. Bodfean 76/14.]Derek Howard-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email toquotes in the subject and the body of the message

Post by Richard CarruthersI wonder if the De Ridder claims to such a title have any merit? Theorigins are said to be so ancient (A.D. 780, but also 1711) as to befabulous.

<snip>

I am convinced that all the claimed titles are a fantasy. I can find no de Ridder nobility, nor any Marquis of Renescure, nor de Ridder owning at Renescure castle, no de Ridder de Renescure with arms, nothing under the Flemish spellings, etc.

Without going into excess detail on earlier lords of Renescure, (Commynes in the 15th century, de Brosse, Montmorency in the C17th, Tavernes in the C18th) the estate was sold 1786 to Edouard Désiré Lefebvre de Halle. He was the seigneur in 1798 – see «Catalogue des gentilshommes d'Artois, Flandre et Hainaut qui ont pris part ou envoyé leur procuration aux assemblées de la noblesse pour l'élection des députés aux États généraux de 1789 / publ. d'après les procès-verbaux officiels», ed. de La Roque and de Barthélemy, pub 1865, p 22 (Catalogue des Gentilshommes de Flandre. Bailliage de Bailleul):http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k204822d/f21From whose family the estate passed to the haute bourgeois family of Benard de Renescurehttp://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k111996v/f332

Most suggestive of de Louis Edward de Ridder's willingness to consider fantasy are a few letters that he wrote to Lord Newborough, the letters now preserved in the Wynne papers at the Gwynedd archives, regarding the allegations around the 1773 parentage of Louis Philippe. (That you have already posted in a separate thread).

de Renescurehttp://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k111996v/f332Most suggestive of de Louis Edward de Ridder's willingness to considerfantasy are a few letters that he wrote to Lord Newborough, the letters nowpreserved in the Wynne papers at the Gwynedd archives, regarding theallegations around the 1773 parentage of Louis Philippe. (That you havealready posted in a separate thread).Derek Howard-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email toquotes in the subject and the body of the message

de Renescurehttp://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k111996v/f332Most suggestive of de Louis Edward de Ridder's willingness to considerfantasy are a few letters that he wrote to Lord Newborough, the letters nowpreserved in the Wynne papers at the Gwynedd archives, regarding theallegations around the 1773 parentage of Louis Philippe. (That you havealready posted in a separate thread).Derek Howard-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email toquotes in the subject and the body of the message

de Renescurehttp://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k111996v/f332Most suggestive of de Louis Edward de Ridder's willingness to considerfantasy are a few letters that he wrote to Lord Newborough, the letters nowpreserved in the Wynne papers at the Gwynedd archives, regarding theallegations around the 1773 parentage of Louis Philippe. (That you havealready posted in a separate thread).Derek Howard-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email toquotes in the subject and the body of the message

I know it is some time after this initial discussion but although the noble title probably not correct both of Jean Bartholomei de Ridder's sons had , firstly Louis godfather was Taverne and Anne Coppens and secondly Desire had De Halle who had taken over Renescure chateau from Taverne.Also Jean B was a surgeon to ?Prince of Orange" so obviously moved in elite circles.Heather Hayes, Hamilton, NZ

de Renescurehttp://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k111996v/f332Most suggestive of de Louis Edward de Ridder's willingness to considerfantasy are a few letters that he wrote to Lord Newborough, the letters nowpreserved in the Wynne papers at the Gwynedd archives, regarding theallegations around the 1773 parentage of Louis Philippe. (That you havealready posted in a separate thread).Derek Howard-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email toquotes in the subject and the body of the message

It has been sometime since this correspondence. Just wondered if any progress made on the De Ridder history. It would appear that the Granara marriage was a bigamous one but still interested in the history in France.Heather, Hamilton, New Zealand