Whitechapel - Gun Machine ThreadSun, 02 Aug 2015 13:32:46 -0500http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/
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Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346709#Comment_346709
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346709#Comment_346709Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:31:01 -0600ebullientsoulOne of the little moments I adored in Crooked Little Vein was when the detective Mike McGill put the gun away in his office before going on the adventure. I read that as indicative of Ellis saying "yes there's a detective and a crime but it's not gonna be like that." Is there any moment like that in your reading of Gun Machine? ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346710#Comment_346710
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346710#Comment_346710Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:06:50 -0600Kay OrchisonStrong, nuanced female characters abound, along with eminently quotable dialogue and a wealth of strange days vignettes. I'll be interested to hear what all y'all think about a certain tactic related to villain nomenclature. It'll become clear what I mean. ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346734#Comment_346734
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346734#Comment_346734Sat, 12 Jan 2013 16:27:55 -0600ruzkinGun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346737#Comment_346737
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346737#Comment_346737Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:27:00 -0600TFGun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346745#Comment_346745
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346745#Comment_346745Sat, 12 Jan 2013 19:24:54 -0600cjkogerGun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346746#Comment_346746
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346746#Comment_346746Sat, 12 Jan 2013 20:15:51 -0600Mark RGun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346764#Comment_346764
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346764#Comment_346764Sun, 13 Jan 2013 07:35:39 -0600Paul SizerGun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346768#Comment_346768
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346768#Comment_346768Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:17:01 -0600Ed JacksonGun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346800#Comment_346800
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346800#Comment_346800Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:02:28 -0600FauxhammerGun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346814#Comment_346814
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346814#Comment_346814Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:28:59 -0600Professor ImagineI thoroughly enjoyed it. The first and most obvious observation I was able to make is regarding Warren's evolution in style. There is an economy of language present here. I don't know if it's just because I followed along through the process as it was being written, but the finished product feels very deliberate... very... honed. The narrative depictions of violence are as graphic as anything TV or film is able to offer, and the reader is introduced to the recurring character of "brain matter" by the end of Chapter 1.

My absolute favorite narrative device is the experience of schizophrenia and psychosis from the Hunter's perspective. The effect of

flashing back and forth between New Manhattan and Old Manhattan

is expertly achieved throughout the book.

Having been tuned into Warren Ellis's broadcast frequency for a number of years now, I especially enjoyed seeing all of the various threads of interest coalesce into a coherent experience of the present world. Characters subjectively experiencing over-laying maps of information, history, experience, etc., suffused with the most modern technological trappings of 2012. It occurred to me while reading (an obvious observation, in retrospect, but one that I have thus far failed to intellectualize) that the technological capabilities within the world of a work of fiction are limited by the author's awareness of present technological advancements. Obviously, Warren remains attuned to the frontiers of modern technological advances and these permeate the narrative.

For instance, in William Gibson's 2002 novel Pattern Recognition, the protagonist's ability to remotely access the internet is made possible only by her high-level connections and at great expense. Ten years later, of course, anyone is able to afford and become their own mobile wi-fi hotspot, even a NYC detective who's just going through the motions. Though, as an info-philiac, it absolutely fits the character.

I'm sure that, in my haste to experience this work (which I've eagerly anticipated since the first announcement of the Mulholland deal), a 2nd reading or listening to audiobooks, will yield further enjoyment and possibly greater insights. ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346815#Comment_346815
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346815#Comment_346815Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:30:52 -0600Professor Imagine
Far too many info-dumps thinly disguised as dialogue.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm prone to frequently speaking in info-dump monologues myself, and I know several others with a similar affliction, so I didn't notice as much. :/ ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346821#Comment_346821
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346821#Comment_346821Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:29:28 -0600TFIt took me out of the story though because it wasn't from the character or part of the narrative - it was starry wisdom. ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346833#Comment_346833
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346833#Comment_346833Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:07:25 -0600glukkakeI devoured the book in a 6 hour binge. I likely need to read it again, slower, to get a better feel for it. But I still adored it tremendously. ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346834#Comment_346834
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346834#Comment_346834Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:34:49 -0600Professor ImagineGun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346881#Comment_346881
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346881#Comment_346881Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:43:57 -0600Professor Imagine
a link to Book Trailer #2. Apparently, it's exclusive at Vulture.com and the person they got to write the 130 words to accompany the trailer, a Mr. Jesse David Fox, couldn't be bothered to distinguish Warren as a comic-book writer, instead of artist. Also, he concludes that "the devil is somehow behind" everything that happens in Gun Machine. Nice work, Mr. "Journalist". Phoning it in on this one, huh? ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346884#Comment_346884
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=346884#Comment_346884Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:14:21 -0600TFSince we can't post it here yet here's a temp one:

---

It seems like a good time to repost Ariana's G+ archive of Warrens Machine Vision newsletter for those who stopped receiving them / never received them

1. Did anyone else get a slight From Hell vibe on the crazy gun killer?2. Warren Ellis' three main characters were back. You had Wacky Science Guy, Hyper Competent Woman With A Fetish and The Straight Man On The Skids. I missed those guys.3. The only dialogue/info dump that took me out of the narrative was the one when a businessman explains why he purchased a building. That was it.4. I totally thought he was gonna kill Tallow when Tallow delivered the "laying everything out" discussion at dinner.

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Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347023#Comment_347023
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347023#Comment_347023Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:54:11 -0600Ed Jackson
http://www.foyles.co.uk/Public/Events/Detail.aspx?eventId=1780 ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347147#Comment_347147
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347147#Comment_347147Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:34:40 -0600Paul SizerReally good, but different than previous.CROOKED LITTLE VEIN was a full on Ellis punch in the face, full tilt Ellis-isms, read a lot like his comics. GUN MACHINE seemed more like a book, written as a book. Lean, fast, good dialogue, nice visuals in the prose, less needing to kick one in the nuts, but also some nice refinements. Some reviews have been saying the ending is a bit anti-climatic, but this seemed like something that was made to be adapted into a TV show/movie. Everything seemed filmable, which isn't a bad thing. Seemed like someone who was really good at getting the visuals of the comics medium to work with the words tried that with straight prose and succeeded. The whole book seemed less explosive than CROOKED LITTLE VEIN, but that may be editing and wanting to give it a chance to move to other mediums.

- it's rather minimalistic.not in its style, but in its scope. it might seem full of information and background. but it's all actually quite focussed on the prota-/antagonist relationship and their respective (symbolic) connection to manhattan.

- it's not really about people but about a place.at least, that's how i felt about it. sure, the characters move the plot and colour it, but in my first reading the star of the show seems to have been manhattan and its history as channeled through ellis' cast. in that respect it was vaguely reminiscent of moore's 'voice of the fire'.

- it did not feel anticlimatic to me.seems that many thought the novel's ending left a lot to be desired, which i do not want to disagree with, as that's a very subjective and personal thing. however, to me it seemed like a very natural, organic way to resolve the crime fiction facet of the novel. as in: 'crimes were committed. crimes were solved. thank you, good night.'

- it's very masculinistic.which is a thing with mr. ellis, i suppose. most of his writing has a strong masculinistc tinge to it, even though he's usually concerned to offset this by diffusing social gender issues. as he has done in 'gun machine' through the very likeable duo of supporting characters to the protagonist. but even one of them is actually masculinist fantasy manifest (partially, at least), so the point stands. ok, no, wait, while writing this i realized that what i'm perceiving is not 'masculinism' in the current, strictly scientifical meaning of the term, but a, well, perhaps 'neo masculinism', where the images (and imaginings) of masculinist worldview have been uncoupled from biological gender views and attributed to the social male gender (in all its varieties). sort of 'hyper social-sex-chauvinism'. does that make sense? i guess, i need to mull this over a little bit more. feedback very welcome.

- it is a movie script.seriously, you could turn this into a movie straight off the book. i'm not a script writer, so i'm sure i'm wrong about that, but from a layperson's point of view it seems that 'gun machine' just screams to be wed to a visual medium with minimum effort.

- it's quite enjoyable.was hooked from the beginning and it wouldn't let me go until the last page. i even found myself longing to be reading the book, when i was doing other, more pressing and important things (such as continuing my work, which pays my bills, of which i have many). that, in conclusion, is (imo) the most vital key to discern 'good' from 'bad' books. (by which i mean: books that i want to read and those i do not.)

and now a little tangent that came to while going through the novels and i hope some of you will share their thoughts on with me (it might dilute this thread a bit, so if you feel this is something that many of you want to get into, we should move it to a seperate thread):i used to think that warren ellis is this steel-skinned lizard warlock, this streetwise cyber-shaman, who walks through shadow culture (at large and in detail) without being much touched or impressed by it. a monitor of sorts that conjures connections and information, where it was hard to see before. sometimes very intelligent, sometimes not so much. always interesting. i have the impression that most of his work, at the very least his more iconic output, has a ritualistic aspect to it. it's very obvious in 'crooked little vein', it's a theme in 'gun machine', it's the modus operandi of spider jerusalem throughout the entirety of 'transmetropoltan', 'supergod' looks at the fallout of a ritual gone awry, there's the process of ritualisation in 'doktor sleepless' and 'global frequency', i believe 'the authority' and 'planetary' and 'desolation jones' make strong use of symbols of ritualistic empowerment to fuel the main characters. and so on and so forth. but now something gestates in my brain: i used to think that all of this was to help visualize the cultural traits of the symbols and tropes and themes he was using for our benefit, for the 'uninitiated' who cannot see like he does, but now i'm suddenly thinking that, no, it's actually the other way round. i'm thinking that warren ellis is deathly afraid of all these 'others', these various sundry of human culture(s) and would love if he could freeze it all in place, but that he's fortunately brave and smart enough to realize that to be a tremendously stupid idea and instead chose to dive into it all, even become a futurist for it, and channel it in a ritualistic manner as to get a grip on it and not be afraid of having no control... yeah, i'm not sure where i'm headed with this... ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347794#Comment_347794
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347794#Comment_347794Sun, 03 Feb 2013 11:15:03 -0600StefanJRegarding PLACE:

Here and there I wonder about certain settings, like an abandoned hardware store. Even in crummy parts of Manhattan, retail places are too valuable to leave around. But that's just a tiny nit.

Mostly, there's this: I used to commute, every goddamn day, from my parents' house on Long Island to Rockland County . . . up along the Hudson and across a bridge.

I got, over many years, a feeling or impression of the land around the Hudson. The great forested hills on either side of the river, the rock outcroppings vegetation and seasons. And it dawned on me that Manhattan, that extraordinarily artificial place, was once like all-that.

A wild place, then a thinly settled place.

Clinton-deWitt's leveling of the place was an extraordinary thing, both ghastly and wonderous, the virtual elimination of wildness and landscape over most of the island, turning land into a machine of sorts. When I visit, I think about the land-that-was.

So. The Hunter's odd visions aren't so odd to me. (NB: Nothing else about the guy is remotely relatable.)

If your library has the DVD set, I highly recommend Burns' PBS series about New York. By European standards New York is a young city . . . but what history there is, is astonishing. The New York of old photographs, that's not even the end of the beginning. ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347802#Comment_347802
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347802#Comment_347802Sun, 03 Feb 2013 14:12:23 -0600roadscumOne thing i noticed above anything else; for a story set in Manhattan, there were an awful lot of little nods to Whitechapel scattered through it. He is a fine and interesting gent, yer Warren Ellis. ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347977#Comment_347977
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=347977#Comment_347977Thu, 07 Feb 2013 05:49:38 -0600curbOne of the things I really liked was the ending, in that there was a real sense of humanity there. It would have been easy to

kill off the hunter, but I think that keeping him alive and recognising that he was in need of treatment added a nice dash of compassion to an otherwise brutal tale.

One minor aspect of the book, not really plot related but atmospheric, struck me as . . . unrealistic?

I grew up on Long Island. We got NYC's TV stations, and the city was the center of the local news and cultural universe, really.

Occasionally, in Gun Machine, Tallow tunes into the police scanner, and hears horrible, horrible stories. Awful murders, maimings, people eaten by rats and dogs, etcetera. We get the idea that this is a usual thing, one of the things slowly wearing Tallow down.

Now, look, NYC is a major American city, and gets its fair share of awful crimes, but I think I can authoritatively say that any one of those horror stories would set the city back on its heels. 24-7 coverage, editorials in the Daily News.

I know, this is part of Warren's shtick, and I liked it in Transmetropolitan and Crooked Little Vein, but it was a little jarring in Gun Machine, which seems like a more realistic novel.

That quibble aside, I liked it a lot. I would love, love to see these characters in a movie or TV series. The latter of which I think is a thing, right? ]]>
Gun Machine Threadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=348511#Comment_348511
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=10964&Focus=348511#Comment_348511Sat, 16 Feb 2013 02:33:07 -0600Vornaskotti