start slow. If you try to swing for the fences right off, you will develop aches and pains that take a long time to go away (shoulders and definately elbows). Start slow with a regular stick, one you like that isn't too heavy. Work your way up to the loaded for bear swings. Trust me on this. I have dodgy shoulders (rotator cuff issues) and elbows (tendonitis).tom

I use Clubbells and Kettlebells along with jumpstretch bands. I highly recommend them. The clubbells run from 5lbs all the way up to 80lbs. The heavier ones are for two handed work. With proper instructions they really give the shoulders and increased range of motion and functional strength. The movement called the Two Handed Swipe is like an upperbody squat in that it uses SO many muscle groups.

Kettlebells offer more total body strength with an emphasis on posterior chain work from modified Olympic lifting. (snatch, cleans, jerks, overhead squatting). You can use dumbells and wiffle ball bats full of cement, but once you use the real thing,...it is hard to switch.

Tom,excellent response, thanks. would you have some direct links for lifts you use?right now i just want to work them into my current routine. more of prehab stuff to increae mobility and usable range/strength. i am looking at sonnons site and archives, but so far have only come up with circles in front of the body going both out to in and in to out(anterior to medial...medial to laterally). i am thinking of doing one around the head as if transitioning from a roof/wing block to a forehand type movement.i also like the mobility stuff he uses, personally i have like a lot of people lost mobility thru the years especially from lifting heavy weights. i want to gain some of that functional mobility back as it looks awesome for usage in a ground game along with longevity. i am not a sonnon convert but his stuff looks good for my purpose as part of my toolbox.

Try parries and reverse parries with the club. Both two handed and one handed. As for the kettlebells. Use the Turkish Getup as a shoulder rehab, prehab. There are a lot more tools, but those should get you started.

I use an axe handle when I train, the kind with the plastic cap for more weight though a wood baseballbat is exellent as well. Do it real slow at first or you are in danger of blowing out your shoulder or wrists.

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I use pipes as well, but using 25lb clubs kicks ass. Your grip will be transformed and you can control intensity, volume, duration, and frequency. The above exercise, I refer to as a reverse arm wrestler. I have a variation with some new twists on my upcoming DVD. I actually have alot of shoulder oriented stuff on there.

Say Tom,ABout the TGU's. How should I do them. Just one on each side and keep switching for time or equal amounts on each side with the 24 kg kbell or go for heavier with the 32kg, I can do the 24 pretty easily and have done it before for a 10 minute stretch switching side with each rep. It felt pretty good.I will take your advice with the clubbells. I am a teacher and short on cash so I may have to settle for the sand filled whiffle bat.tom

Lucky for me, I have a network of trainers who buy and trade gear like clubbells!

Either approach will work for the Turkish Getup. My wife likes 5 reps per side, then switching. A single on each side for constant switching, long duration is really good as well.

I just did swings with the 72lber, then TGU's for a single each side, then rows for 8 reps, then held a Yoga "plank" for 45 seconds. I did this for several rounds. This is a well rounded workout and alot of fun. Good for stability, mobility, and resiliency. 5 rounds is real good, but build up.

Thanks tomI like the swings with the 72lb also. I currently am trying to get in shape for FLETC, and am cranking out the DOE manMaker witht a 24kg. I'm up to 190 snatches and 250 squats and am bumping up today. I ripped the skin off my fingers and the 2 hand swing with the 32kg was an excellant replacement for the one handed snatches. I also started doing 1 arm rows and standing holds with the kbells.The kbells have helped my stick work immensely. Grip is strong, wind is getting better, leg strikes (kangaroo leg shot) is real quick. I just need to take care of my shoulders, elbows and knees for the academy.thanks for the helptom

Hey Tom, maybe you can bring a set out one of these Saturdays to share with the group?

I think it would be awesome and beneficial for all of us.

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I believe the best way to get conditioned for stick fighting is by training with sticks. The first tape"Power" of the Dogbrothers first series contains some excellent training methods. Lately I've incorporated stick training into my "cardio" training. Try one round siniwalli on some tires or a heavy bag followed by one round jumprope, continue for 30-40 minutes. It will do wonders for the muscular endurance of your shoulders and wrist. The jump rope is a wonderful all around training tool that also makes you "light " on your feet. For shoulder prehab I use similar exercises to the ones described in the previous posts. There is a ton of information on the net on prehab and rehab for shoulders particularly for baseball pitchers. It is certainly worth googling.

Crafty,a friend was showing me the exercise you do of taking a 25# or so holding it at about eye level then rotating it around your head. It really seems to work the shoulders through a wide range of motion and feels really effective. The clubell guys do a similar thing with the clubs, they call it 'hammer swing'

The exercise above is a halo. There are lots of cool things you can do with light weight for mobility. There is material in Pavel's "Resilient", and my own, soon to be out DVD regarding durability and range of motion.

Mysterious elbow pains are sometimes the result of overdosing on gripping the sticks. The pain actually is not the elbow, but rather the origin of the underworked extensor muscles of the fingers. The solution is to make a "crane's beak" with your five fingers, put a rubber band around them and then work spreading them for high reps and high speed. As balance is restored between the flexors and the extensors, the pain in the elbow disappears.

Good piece in many ways. I agree with his assessment of the importance of the 7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution.

I have no idea of the merit of his 6 days a week for the same movements methodology.

Where I think he misses a vital point in his analysis is in the foundational role of the hips. When the hips are tilted forward (due to tight hip flexors (psoas, ilio, quads) and weak peak contraction of the glute-hamstring nexus) -- which is the case with a huge majority of the population due to excessive sitting in modern life, there are consequences for the undelrying alignment of the shoulder joint. Specifically, it rolls forward. This is easy to spot in various ways. One indicator is that when standing the thumbs should be paralell but when the shoulder is rolled forward, the thumbs point inward to varying degrees. Another indicator is when viewed from the side the ears should be above the shoulders, but when the hips are tilted forward and the shoulders rolled forward, the ears are well in front of the shoulders. If you point this out to someone, typically he will try to solve it with the neck, but the true solution lies restoring the hips to level.

IMHO to try to solve shoulder problems without also leveling the hips is like peeing into the wind.

Please note Detroit Tiger Sean Casey. His shoulders are fine now. He had problems before. We determined what was going on, and I put stuff in his program last winter that cured his issues. His lower body needs more work this year. I want him at 218 and he is 235.

The Torqueblade like any other item dreamed into being was inspired by another. My inspiration came from my experiences in various fitness regimes, military, para military, martial, and numerous civilian. The main underlying thread which I came to appreciate was that of strength to weight ratio and specific endurance for the desired tasks. Always looking for the most cost and time effective regime I realized that the fundamentals of fitness never changed only the intent. In essence training motions rather than muscles seemed more applicable to my daily routines.Torqueblade training has been influenced by the need for adaptability of impromptu weapons. It can be said that Indian club training has long incorporated this practice by increasing the size and therefore the load of the training tool. The British military adopted these exercises in the 1800's.

?Club swinging is believed to have originated in India by soldiers as a method of improving strength, agility, balance and physical ability. During the annexation of India, British officers witnessed the graceful motions and essential property of expanding the chest and exercising every muscle of the body. The British brought the Indian Clubs to Europe where the Germans and Czechs adopted club swinging into their physical training systems?.Information kindly supplied by DR. ED Thomas of www.motionrx.com

?The British military, moving with the times decided to upgrade the Royal Navy. The Admiralty at that time replaced sails in favor of steam, to power the new warships. Consequently, labor was not as demanding and the Admiralty perceived a lack of fitness. So the R.N. adopted the training regime of club swinging. To this day the fitness instructors in the R.N. are still referred to as Clubs?.

I amalgamated my appreciation of blade training with medicine ball type exercises and the training regime of Indian club training.

To take you back to the quote of Darwin that ?adaptability ensures a creature?s success? In other words functional training. Or to put it another way ?If you can?t pull yourself out of a hole, what use are you?? (Mind you, seeking and avoiding holes would probably be a better lesson to study?).

The conception of the Torqueblade came from two routes, like parallel lines on train track, both heading in the same direction. The two routes are ?Functional Fitness? and the ?Arts of Mars? Martial Arts does actually mean the arts of Mars, the Roman deity of battle and therefore warlike arts both originating from the need to improve certain desired attributes, and both heading towards a similar goal. I originally started designing the Torqueblade from the desire to develop an awkward training tool to enhance adaptability to impromptu weapons. This would also challenge the body?s equilibrium when in motion. These requirements would aide in adaptability.

The neuromuscular memory of martial motions must become subtle and effortless. This is the same principle for any sport; the specific motions must become second nature to be effective. The double edged sword of refined body mechanics is that only the essential muscles required for the task are used. Once this is mastered the motions become effortless. If no effort is required the body naturally seeks a new state of rest and your fitness levels start to decline as the pounds start to creep back on.

?The human body moves in three planes of motion that of the saggital, frontal and transverse plane. The saggital separates us from left and right, the frontal from back to front and the transverse is a rotational plane that separates from top to bottom?. Jaun Carlos "JC" Sanatana Director ofThe Institue of Human Performancewww.ihpfit.com 561-620-9556?Everything that we do requires our muscles to work in synergy with each other. Every required task moves through all three planes of motion (multi-planer). Only the intent changes the out come?. M. Macro

I realized that when training with weapons (swords/clubs), students body mechanics improved quicker than when training empty hands alone. The reason for this is that when the equilibrium of the body is challenged by holding an object outside of its natural range of motion the core of the body has to react more quickly to regain balance. This reaction of muscles turning off and on to regain balance is called proprioception.If in a fight or flight situation, the ability to adapt by way of proprioception my neuromuscular system for an impromptu weapon (if warranted) can be hindered with out proper training, due to the on coming threat and time constraints.

?So training in a manner which would prehabilitate my body for such an eventuality would seem to be the ideal way to go?.

Training in a traditional gym type setting was not conducive to my requirements. The only exercises which would allow me to train in all planes of motion would be those similar to medicine ball training and those exercises of the Indian Gurus or club swinging. These exercises were be made all the more challenging, with the unique design of the Torqueblade.

Examples of insperation

The Torqueblade adopted the weighted tip of the (1) Nepalese ghukri an elongated belly to resemble the shape of the (2) East Indian club and pistol grip of a (3) Philippine blade (kriss).

1.? 2.3.? Torqueblade and Companionblade

« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 07:28:25 PM by Robertlk808 »

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"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed

The benefit I see to Torquebaldes over Clubbells for combatives training is that having an edged "blade" requires your slashes to be more precise in order to achieve the angle necessary to get the most effective cut. You have that visual reference that is lacking with sticks, pipes, etc.

That being said, I have handled the Torqueblades and do not think they are anywhere as physically demanding as Clubbells are. So if you are doing this type of conditioning to enhance your overall striking power and conditioning, I would go with Clubbells. Tom's comment below about Clubbells is one I agree wholeheartedly with:

Quote

You can use dumbbells and wiffle ball bats full of cement, but once you use the real thing,...it is hard to switch.

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Bark All,I'm the new guy on the block at the moment, so I don't have all the dialect down

Colonel Ryabko of Systema has a good one that really works the front chain, and so is a great complement for KB work:

Set your feet 2-3 ft apartGrab a staff at the top, set the bottom firmly on the ground about 5-6 ft in front of you (or in the angle between wall and floor--you don't want it slipping).Lean forward supporting your weight with both hands gripping the staff.DON'T let your low back arch--keep your torso in a slight forward "C" curve.Keep you abdomen strongly pulled in (engage tranverse abdominal muscles).Walk your hands slowly down the stick and back up.Many variations possible.

Ryabko demonstrates many interesting stick tricks in his stickfighting DVD.

Where do you guys come down on strength and strength training, as it relates to fighting with the stick. I mean your garden variety 400lb DL, 300+ lb squat, etc sort of thing. I am sure some of the fighters are very strong. Are they able to bring it to bear, in their fights? Is stick speed and striking strenght affected by strength or is this another thing, entirely. I am thinking about this just because I need to pick up heavy things, at work and have benefitted from the standard compound lift training. Will that benefit the fighter as well.

(I'll move this, if needed. Just trying to avoid creating another thread.)

Where do you guys come down on strength and strength training, as it relates to fighting with the stick. I mean your garden variety 400lb DL, 300+ lb squat, etc sort of thing. I am sure some of the fighters are very strong. Are they able to bring it to bear, in their fights? Is stick speed and striking strenght affected by strength or is this another thing, entirely. I am thinking about this just because I need to pick up heavy things, at work and have benefitted from the standard compound lift training. Will that benefit the fighter as well.

Common sense dictates that, all else equal, greater strength and power will be helpful in a full-contact encounter.

"Is it not always possible to bring the strength from weight training into the power of your hits?"

Body mechanics may be one answer. If your shoulders are stronger than mine, then you should be able to swing a stick harder from the shoulder. But if I successfully engage my feet, legs, core, shoulder and biceps (for example) to swing chances are very good that I can hit harder than you. You might take a look at Bruce Lee's writings on the subject of striking.

My rotator cuffs are feeling the strain lately - way too much popping and grinding and pain. I'm taking some time off lifting and training to see if things mend, then will incorporate some of the training methods on this thread to gradually strengthen them. Thanks, everyone.

In my experience, which may or may not apply to you, many people tend to have their shoulders somewhat internally rotated. If when you stand without thinking your thumbs point inward instead of forward (i.e. parallel to each other) then to some degree probably there is internal rotation of the shoulder joint. This then means that the joint tends to become annoyed by use. Rest will allow the inflammation to settle down, but if the alignment issue has not been dealt with, then returning to working out will tend to annoy it all over again.

Why does the shoulder joint get internally rotated?

Typically because the hips are tilted forwards.

Why do the hips tilt forwards?

Typically because the hip flexors are tight and the muscles complementary to them (glute and one of the heads of the hamstring) have lost the ability to execute peak contraction movements well.

There is more to this analytical framework, but perhaps those thoughts may serve to help you find the cause and solution of your particular issues.

Funny, my Kettlebell instructor said the exact same thing about my shoulders. Took a couple of hours of private lessons to learn the details of how to do the basic two-handed swing, one-arm swing, and turkish get-ups. Those 3 I to do after each workout to keep my shoulders and spine in proper alignment.

Turkish Get Ups for Shoulder/T-SpineSwings for Core/Lower Back and executing those peak contraction movements Guro was referring to.

In my experience, which may or may not apply to you, many people tend to have their shoulders somewhat internally rotated. If when you stand without thinking your thumbs point inward instead of forward (i.e. parallel to each other) then to some degree probably there is internal rotation of the shoulder joint. This then means that the joint tends to become annoyed by use. Rest will allow the inflammation to settle down, but if the alignment issue has not been dealt with, then returning to working out will tend to annoy it all over again.

Why does the shoulder joint get internally rotated?

Typically because the hips are tilted forwards.

Why do the hips tilt forwards?

Typically because the hip flexors are tight and the muscles complementary to them (glute and one of the heads of the hamstring) have lost the ability to execute peak contraction movements well.

There is more to this analytical framework, but perhaps those thoughts may serve to help you find the cause and solution of your particular issues.

That makes excellent sense. If I recollect, you mentioned that you focused a lot on alignment. Do you have any particular exercises or books on the subject that yourecommend?