Vic batted .294/.801 this year while playing GG caliber RF for a World Series winning team. This year he earned his keep. I was (and still am) against the third year of his contract, but they did it anyway. Tanaka will still have four more years after his third year, even if he stinks.

VIC won the AL Gold Glove

I thought I said that.

But when Jeter won the AL GG it didn't mean anything.

Jeter was never a great defensive SS. If you look at other defensive metrics you will see that. In my mind he was a + SS overall because he made clutch plays when he had to and was a significant offensive threat. You cannot compare Vic's defense with Jeter's, even when Jeter was in his prime.

Vic batted .294/.801 this year while playing GG caliber RF for a World Series winning team. This year he earned his keep. I was (and still am) against the third year of his contract, but they did it anyway. Tanaka will still have four more years after his third year, even if he stinks.

VIC won the AL Gold Glove

I thought I said that.

But when Jeter won the AL GG it didn't mean anything.

GG's mean very little...sometimes the guy with the best defense wins it. Sometimes the popular guy who has horrible range but makes few errors gets it.

Jeter was an above average defender in his prime. But he was no Visquel, he was good enough that with his popularity he won a couple GG. He had great hands, very sure and made few errors...but guys like Omar just got to more balls than Jeter (and pretty much everyone) ever did.

Jeter is still one of the best shortstops Players of all time.

Go ahead you can say it.

One of the 5 best shortstops of all time.

As painful as it is.

I'd say the best ss ever. This is weighing his offense, and post season production into the equation as well. If we were talking about defense alone, then Jeter was an average SS over the course of his career.

Of courese this doesn't come without saying he wasn't a great defensive player, this is in no way a knock.

The best players in highschool play SS, the best and/or most athletic play SS in college....the best of those guys stick there in the majors.

A below average defensive SS in the major leagues would still be a top defender at most other positions. So to say Jeters defense was average at that position is still saying he was one of the better athletes in the entire league, and while i think his defense is over rated I do think it was above average in his prime...which is what people forget about him.

I think his last GG was the one he really truly didn't deserve, you can make a good case for the other ones...and that is what I think a lot of the Jeter haters focus on.

I think you are missing the point. The Yankees didn't go after Darvish last year because they didn't prioritize pitching and they had committed themselves to staying under the luxury tax within a few years.

The point is....the Yankees are now desperate for pitching, and have obviously BLOWN UP their plans.....which to me is not to far away from having zero plan at all.

+1

Anthony Rieber 12sCashman: Yankees have scouted tanaka since 2007. Scouted 15 games this year plus WBC and playoffs. "This has been a long drawn out process"

I think you are missing the point. The Yankees didn't go after Darvish last year because they didn't prioritize pitching and they had committed themselves to staying under the luxury tax within a few years.

The point is....the Yankees are now desperate for pitching, and have obviously BLOWN UP their plans.....which to me is not to far away from having zero plan at all.

+1

Anthony Rieber 12sCashman: Yankees have scouted tanaka since 2007. Scouted 15 games this year plus WBC and playoffs. "This has been a long drawn out process"

almost sounds morre like a long term plan

rather than a desperate reaction

you know what they say, about the best laid plans

Zac, I find it hard to believe you dont think the NYY paid what they had to, because they were desperate for pitching. Hard to form a long term plan, for a guy who has never thrown a pitch, in mlb. Since when has scounting, turned into a proven player?

I tend to believe that Jeter gets less love in Boston than anywhere else so I take any criticism on this site with a grain of salt.

Personally I think Bill James is fos.

Bill James revolutionized the way teams think about talent. He's published numerous books on the subject and is a senior adviser on talent to the reigning World Series Champions. Prior to the 2013 season John Henry said that one mistake the FO had made was getting away from James' way of thinking. The team then went out and signed players that fit the profile James has traditionally supported and everyone was questioning... until October.

What're your credentials to be criticizing him?

That giant sucking sound you hear is TWM's credibility going down the drain.

Bill James is human he like everyone else has a bias.

High exalted mystic ruler of the Derek Jeter hate club.

And actually why he is so revered in Boston.

A rotten shame he can't keep Jeter out of Cooperstown.

James does have a bias. He's a long-time KC Royals fan.

But getting back on topic, he uses stats to make a point and the point he made with Jeter is that Jeter isn't THAT GOOD a SS. And in your biased opinion (because EVERYONE has a bias) James is FOS because he exposed Jeter for what he is defensively.

ooookkkkk.

Realistically, Jeter is a steady SS with average (or less) defensive skills who makes up for it with his bat and with leadership ability. He may very well make it to Cooperstown but it won't be because of his defense.

Phrases like "bad contract," "overpay," and "albatross" are meaningless words to the Yankees...I don't know why we bother characterizing anything they do in those terms. They've reached the doomsday phase with A-Rod (still on the hook for 3 more seasons after the suspension) and are about to be paying a ton of money for the declines of Sabathia and Teixeira, and they're not fazed a single bit.

Phrases like "bad contract," "overpay," and "albatross" are meaningless words to the Yankees...I don't know why we bother characterizing anything they do in those terms. They've reached the doomsday phase with A-Rod (still on the hook for 3 more seasons after the suspension) and are about to be paying a ton of money for the declines of Sabathia and Teixeira, and they're not fazed a single bit.

Phrases like "bad contract," "overpay," and "albatross" are meaningless words to the Yankees...I don't know why we bother characterizing anything they do in those terms. They've reached the doomsday phase with A-Rod (still on the hook for 3 more seasons after the suspension) and are about to be paying a ton of money for the declines of Sabathia and Teixeira, and they're not fazed a single bit.

Yankees being the Yankees. I don't think they know how to be any other way

I think you are missing the point. The Yankees didn't go after Darvish last year because they didn't prioritize pitching and they had committed themselves to staying under the luxury tax within a few years.

The point is....the Yankees are now desperate for pitching, and have obviously BLOWN UP their plans.....which to me is not to far away from having zero plan at all.

+1

Anthony Rieber 12sCashman: Yankees have scouted tanaka since 2007. Scouted 15 games this year plus WBC and playoffs. "This has been a long drawn out process"

almost sounds morre like a long term plan

rather than a desperate reaction

I bet if any other team signed him you would have heard something similiar. he has been a high profile arm on the international market for a while....most teams have scouted a ton of his games.

Zac, I find it hard to believe you dont think the NYY paid what they had to, because they were desperate for pitching.

Y is it desperate and not just filling a need ?

is it in your opin because they did it the yankee way

(they went after the best FA option available)

Hard to form a long term plan, for a guy who has never thrown a pitch, in mlb.

Thoughts following the Masahiro Tanaka signing By Mike Axisa.

1. Might as well just start with this to get it out of the way: I think the contract is more than reasonable and probably a bargain when you consider what other high-end 25-year-olds would get on the open market. No, he’s never pitched in MLB, but it’s not like they plucked him out of a beer league. The contract is expensive, don’t get me wrong, but as Hal Steinbrenner said yesterday, “market value is what one or more teams are willing to pay today.” Several other clubs were reportedly willing to pay Tanaka upwards of $20M+ annually, so the Yankees weren’t out in their own little world with this offer. It’s comforting knowing other teams believed in his talent enough to offer similar dollars. I’d feel differently if Tanaka was a few years older but the team is (theoretically) buying almost all of his peak years since he just turned 25 in November. If he pitches like prime Dan Haren (the most common comp) from ages 25-28 and then opts out, it will have been a brilliant signing. It’s the next contract, the one that comes after the opt-out and involves buying a whole bunch of decline years, that will be the really scary one.

Zac, I find it hard to believe you dont think the NYY paid what they had to, because they were desperate for pitching.

Y is it desperate and not just filling a need ?

is it in your opin because they did it the yankee way

(they went after the best FA option available)

Hard to form a long term plan, for a guy who has never thrown a pitch, in mlb.

Thoughts following the Masahiro Tanaka signing By Mike Axisa.

1. Might as well just start with this to get it out of the way: I think the contract is more than reasonable and probably a bargain when you consider what other high-end 25-year-olds would get on the open market. No, he’s never pitched in MLB, but it’s not like they plucked him out of a beer league. The contract is expensive, don’t get me wrong, but as Hal Steinbrenner said yesterday, “market value is what one or more teams are willing to pay today.” Several other clubs were reportedly willing to pay Tanaka upwards of $20M+ annually, so the Yankees weren’t out in their own little world with this offer. It’s comforting knowing other teams believed in his talent enough to offer similar dollars. I’d feel differently if Tanaka was a few years older but the team is (theoretically) buying almost all of his peak years since he just turned 25 in November. If he pitches like prime Dan Haren (the most common comp) from ages 25-28 and then opts out, it will have been a brilliant signing. It’s the next contract, the one that comes after the opt-out and involves buying a whole bunch of decline years, that will be the really scary one.

Because he has yet to throw a pitch in MLB, ALE. Signing him was filling a need, the contract is what was desperation. Everyone can write, tweet and post, all they want about Tanaka. Bob has it right. Anyone who says they know otherwise, is lying, crazy or both.

Phrases like "bad contract," "overpay," and "albatross" are meaningless words to the Yankees...I don't know why we bother characterizing anything they do in those terms. They've reached the doomsday phase with A-Rod (still on the hook for 3 more seasons after the suspension) and are about to be paying a ton of money for the declines of Sabathia and Teixeira, and they're not fazed a single bit.

I don't think they know how to be any other way. It's what they've become.

I agree. And in defense of the Yankees (I can't believe I'm saying THAT!!) it's that way because their revenues allow them to do it. They can throw it against the wall and if it sticks there they go with it, and if it doesn't they release the player and move on to another. In fairness, the Sox can do the same thing to a lesser degree.

That's the advantage of being a big market team vs a small market team. That's also what makes it so amazing when a small market team is successful.

As little as I like to admit it because the Rays are my LEAST favorite team (yes, below the Yankees now), the Rays have become the poster child for building a solid team with limited revenue.

Phrases like "bad contract," "overpay," and "albatross" are meaningless words to the Yankees...I don't know why we bother characterizing anything they do in those terms. They've reached the doomsday phase with A-Rod (still on the hook for 3 more seasons after the suspension) and are about to be paying a ton of money for the declines of Sabathia and Teixeira, and they're not fazed a single bit.

I don't think they know how to be any other way. It's what they've become.

I agree. And in defense of the Yankees (I can't believe I'm saying THAT!!) it's that way because their revenues allow them to do it. They can throw it against the wall and if it sticks there they go with it, and if it doesn't they release the player and move on to another. In fairness, the Sox can do the same thing to a lesser degree.

That's the advantage of being a big market team vs a small market team. That's also what makes it so amazing when a small market team is successful.

As little as I like to admit it because the Rays are my LEAST favorite team (yes, below the Yankees now), the Rays have become the poster child for building a solid team with limited revenue.

Because of all their first round picks. It won't last. Eventually, they'll have to decide, if they want to be spenders or not, to compete in the ALE. I don't see it, as they don't have to fan base to generate the revenue

Ervin Santana's asking price is reportedly in the 60 million dollar range.

Santana is about a 3WAR player, which is probably what Tanaka will be.

Some team might get the same level of production out of Santana than they would from Tanaka for 1/3 of the price.

If I'm wrong and Santana is better....that makes NY's deal look even worst.

If I'm wrong and Tanaka is a stud, then he leaves NY in 4 years and the Yankees would have paid appx market value.

If anytime a guy has to exceed expectations or reach his likely ceiling for a deal to pay off.....then you can't really walk away from the table saying you got a good deal unless you are dreaming on the upside.

At the end of the day the NY fans are dreaming on the upside.....keep dreaming my friends.

Phrases like "bad contract," "overpay," and "albatross" are meaningless words to the Yankees...I don't know why we bother characterizing anything they do in those terms. They've reached the doomsday phase with A-Rod (still on the hook for 3 more seasons after the suspension) and are about to be paying a ton of money for the declines of Sabathia and Teixeira, and they're not fazed a single bit.