Posted
by
Soulskill
on Thursday January 14, 2010 @02:01AM
from the running-on-fumes dept.

RogueyWon writes "The Times is reporting that Polyphony Digital's Gran Turismo 5, likely to prove a key title for the PlayStation 3, has been delayed indefinitely, despite an expectation that it would be released relatively early in 2010. The delay seems likely to impact Sony's plans to bundle the game with the PlayStation 3 console in time for the important spring sales period in Japan."

It may look amazing, but GT5 remains in the garageGran Turismo on the PSP

Sony has delayed indefinitely the Japanese launch of Gran Turismo 5, the latest instalment of a hugely complex driving simulation game that cost more than $60 million (£37 million) to develop and for which fans have been waiting for five years.

The game was due to arrive in Japanese stores in March and the delay is likely to derail Sony’s plans to bundle the PlayStation3 console with it

The Gran Turismo devs are always overpromising. Didn't they promise online play with GT4 on the PS2?

That wikipedia page you link to on GT PSP notes that it IS possible to play the game online via the PS3 application Adhoc Party. Course, you need a PS3 using a wired connection to the internet to use that, since it uses the wireless to connect with the PSP. The only reason I can use adhoc party is because I have my PS3 connected to a switch that has a wireless bridge attached to it. (had the bridge for the

I remember I bought the PS3 for this game when it first came out....
Now I played their demo which I didnt like very much.
Too much anticipation for something builds up my hopes only to crush them.
When something that has been in dev for 5 years like too many hands were in the pot.
Anyone else feel that way like some games that get announced and delayed feel hollow. Like they've been built from the ground up only to be stripped down for scrap then rebuilt. You end up with something like a rushed sequel when there was no original to reminisce about the glory days.
Maybe I'm wrong but thats just my feelings.

I bought GT4 specifically for the Nurbergring, and was very disappointed that GT5 preview didn’t include it. The upgraded graphics are OK, but the difference isn’t that great when you are into the action. Would still wait for GT5 just so I can drive the updated vehicles on the Nurbergring. Not losing sleep over the delay.

There's casual and there's casual. If you want an arcade racer, sure your money is well wasted elsewhere. However if you want to have a more simulation-like experience on specific known tracks with cool cars, but are a casual gamer in the sense that you don't want to invest a few working weeks to unlock those, the original comment stands. I kind of have the same gripe with local multiplayer games (like on the wii) that make you unlock the multiplayer fun in singleplayer. Don't know how GT works in this sense (never played it), but if it does, that sucks for those kind of casual players. Sometimes there are unlock codes, but not always.

When I played Arcade mode in the first few GT games (it's the only way to do multiplayer) there were a few decent cars available from each class (from normal everyday cars up to supercars). Definitely a low percentage of all the cars out of the game of course.

I can see the logic in having all the cars there for multiplayer games, but it still feels kind of cheap to me. When it comes to real party style games though that you only even bought just for a multiplayer experience, it really is a pain to have thin

Those sims are generally only available on PC AFAIK. There are maybe some F1 sims for consoles that are more realistic, but they also are quite limited in their scope, as you can only drive F1 cars. What would you say is a better sim on a console? I'd quite like to try it as I love my driving and driving games.

I think the bar is generally pretty high these days though as even stuff like NFS Pro Street and NFS Shift seemed to have pretty decent handling models. Games like Race Driver: GRID are good fun but t

IIRC, the "paid add on" idea has been more or less dropped because people hated it. I'm sure there will still be downloadable content, but that's not a big deal if the shrink-wrapped game is reasonably complete.

I remember reading an article, when the PS2 was in its infancy, that the three franchises it needed to have installments in to cement its dominance (the PS2 wasn't actually an instant mega-success) were: Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy and Gran Turismo. Now, you could argue that list is a little too exclusive, but there's certainly a nugget of truth in there.

And now this generation, the PS3 is in a less-than-commanding position, and despite now being several years into this console generation, gamers outside of Japan can only purchase one of those franchises for the PS3. For this reason, I suspect Sony are actually pretty nervous about this delay; you're by no means alone in having bought a PS3 primarily for GT5.

Of all the reasons for the delay, there's only one I can think of that makes any real sense to me. This is that Polyphony have taken a look at the recently-released Forza 3 and have, correctly, realised: "This has redefined the realistic racing-sim genre. Nothing we have put out so far has had anything like the feature set or the robustness of this. We need to match Forza 3's feature set, while going beyond it in terms of track and car selection if we don't want underwhelming reviews and sales."

Competing with Forza 3 properly would mean having a proper damage model, having opponent driver AI that is far better than anything we've previously seen in a Gran Turismo game, having all of Forza's advanced online options, such as the auction house, and allowing for the kind of visual customisation of cars that Forza 3 allows. Given that Gran Turismo games to date have basically been updates of the original with better graphics and more cars, but no changes to fundamental features (AI in particular), this may have been a bit of a culture shock for them. But then, Forza 2 and 3 have both come out since the release of Gran Turismo 4, and have provided Polyphony with the kind of competition within the realistic racing genre that they've never had before.

Fortunately for them, the genre is a bit sparser than the first person shooter market, so they probably don't have to fall into the Duke Nukem Forever trap of trying to out-feature a rapidly evolving set of competitors.

Yes, I agree that iRacing is a more realistic simulation. Unfortunately, I'm primarily a gamer rather than a racer (I've thrown a car around a track on track days a few times, but that's about it), and this is where iRacing falls down badly compared to Forza 3 and Gran Turismo. Those series have historically struck a pretty fine balance between realism and fun. The entry curve on iRacing is pitched just a bit too high for me.

Those series have historically struck a pretty fine balance between realism and fun. The entry curve on iRacing is pitched just a bit too high for me.

Wot he said.

The closer you get to a perfect simulation of the real world, the quicker the fun aspect goes downhill. I even found GT4 to be 'too real' and sold it on after reluctantly coming to the realisation that while it looked gobsmackingly good, playing it just wasn't very entertaining.

Forza 3, OTOH, has proved to be a winner in our house. The grind/reward balance is just right, you can casually pick it up and advance your career in 10 minute chunks, and it looks great, too. If you want a harder challenge, you can fine-tune the driving aids to make it more like driving a real car.

I can imagine that some people want a 'Guitar Hero' that requires as much skill as a real guitar to play but I suspect the learning curve would just make it unapproachable for the general gamer populace.

I just wrote an epic post about this and forgot to mention the damned damage physics to boot.As for your quote "correctly, realised:..." exactly, absoloutely, PD need to wake the hell up and stop boasting and saying how bloody wonderful they are and SHOW SOMETHING.

Part of my problem with GT5 so far is actually that they've shown quite a lot; and it's all been underwhelming. I played GT5 Prologue and leaving aside the slimmed down options and feature-set (which you'd expect from a Prologue title), it was just GT4 with high def graphics.

I remember an almost physically painful sense of disappointment as I played it. The AI opponents were still acting exactly as they did in GT4 - following a pre-defined route around the track with almost no ability to react to the player, or indeed to each other. By contrast in Forza 2 (we didn't have 3 at the time), the AI would duck and dive when you were up close with it, and put real pressure on you when chasing you. Forza 3 takes this even further, by allowing for AI which will sometimes make very human mistakes. I had a spectacular moment in-game the other night, where in a Class A race, I went into a corner with a fraction of a second's lead over the second placed car, noticed him trying to pass me on the outside in the corner, thought "he's going way too fast for this" and then found out I was right, as he spun off the track. Things like that don't happen often, but they do mean that if there were a racing-game AI equivalent of the Turing Test, Forza 3 would come pretty close to passing it. But GT5:Prologue gave absolutely no indication that PD have any intention to replicate this. The AI was just the same old rubberband.

The lack of a damage model in Prologue was particularly bad, though it's reassuring to see that this is apparently being addressed for the final game. This isn't because I like smashing up cars; it's fun in the Burnout games, but in a GT or Forza title, I'd rather be winning races. It's more because having a damage model in place influences driver behaviour. Back when I was playing GT3 and GT4, I used to cheat horribly. I knew that with no damage model, I could use walls and even other cars to "bounce" myself around corners at speeds I'd never manage with "proper" grip or drift turning techniques. It was worse in multiplayer; sitting around a TV with friends playing GT3 and GT4 would usually degenerate into a game of high-speed dodgems. Fun at first, but it does get old fast. Doing the same with Forza 3 produces a far better experience, that remains fun for a lot longer, as people start to actually race properly.

I agree with your post pretty much entirely.The saddest part about all this is every single GT 'snippet' I listed since GT4, FEELS LIKE GT4 MODIFIED.It doesn't feel like a new engine, the AI feels the same, the sound seems the same, the physics feel the same, it just seems like they added some cars and high res'd some graphics.

The really sad thing is that if they had simply added some cars and high res'd some graphics, I'd have bought a PS3 on launch day just to play it, and this would be a post about how I'm willing to wait for GT6, not one about pointing out to Sony that no matter how good the game is, I've already got a Wii and and Xbox360 plugged into my TV downstairs, so it's always going to be too little too late.

The weird thing to me is, they actually did that to Wipeout. Wipeout HD is just previous tracks in smooth HD, with a slew of game modes and online play for like, $40, but man was it fun.

PD seem to be overly perfectionist with this game. It seems like it was a game ready for release years ago, they just won't put a final OK on it, and Sony doesn't seem to be putting pressure on them to do so.

I had a spectacular moment in-game the other night, where in a Class A race, I went into a corner with a fraction of a second's lead over the second placed car, noticed him trying to pass me on the outside in the corner, thought "he's going way too fast for this" and then found out I was right, as he spun off the track. Things like that don't happen often, but they do mean that if there were a racing-game AI equivalent of the Turing Test, Forza 3 would come pretty close to passing it.

Seen this a few times myself. Sometimes I act as 'navigator' when my daughter plays the game and have had to tell her a couple of times to believe in her own tactics rather than treat the AI as if they're all perfect drivers. We've seen some aggressive AI drivers inching ahead of us then getting into difficulty on the corners as they try to maintain that lead. By playing a bit more cautiously (whilst keeping the pressure on), you can take advantage of their mistakes.

But GT5:Prologue gave absolutely no indication that PD have any intention to replicate this. The AI was just the same old rubberband.

I'm not so sure that the AI in GT3/4 was a rubberband model. If you had a really good car for the race, you could win by laps, or large amounts of time quite easily. A car that was too slow, and, well, you were bringing up the rear. It seemed like each car in the race was destined to finish in a certain spot, and you have to beat the fastest car to win. They drove a perfect race at the pace the car would allow, and you just had to do better, or have a faster car.

That's not the kind of rubberband I meant. Apologies if I was unclear (the term is ambiguous). I meant that the cars followed a set path around the track and, if knocked off it, would return to that path as though on a rubber band.

I mentioned MSR because it was the equivalent to GT (and that soundtrack... Richard Jacques + TJ Davis = awesome). Crazy Taxi was something completely different. But actually, my favorite racing game for the DC was Daytona USA.

The rewind functionality is the only reason I didn't pass Forza 3 up. I'm not that great of a driver and I don't want to re-race a billion times because I missed one turn. If Gran Turismo has no such functionality it is dead to me. I'm not much of a simulation racer anyway.

The inclusion of the rewind function (which in fairness, first appeared in Grid) was one of the single greatest humanitarian acts of the 21st Century so far. I agree that pretty much any racing game developed from this point onwards should include it (perhaps allowing for a "hardcore" mode which disables it).

I've heard that GT will be getting rewind and the option of building your own tracks. I also heard they implemented weather effects but dropped them because they simply weren't fun.

That they sacrificed a feature on the altar of fun despite that it must have taken a lot of effort to implement and, at the same time, are humble enough to steal good ideas from other games I take as signs that GT5 will be brilliant.

I love these kind of games but I am on a serious time budget. I honestly don't think or feel it's cheating. The people who use rewind get different scoreboards iirc to differntiate online etc.

It's a smart and simple feature which can keep everyone interested in finishing a race.I quit both F1 and F2 when I got to the stupid handling US super muscle cars like the high end Corvette or the Cobra, it was just too hard.

Now it's not - I don't know if I'd pass up GT5 but I'd seriously be un-imprrssed if it lacked

"Given that Gran Turismo games to date have basically been updates of the original with better graphics and more cars, but no changes to fundamental features (AI in particular), this may have been a bit of a culture shock for them. But then, Forza 2 and 3 have both come out since the release of Gran Turismo 4, and have provided Polyphony with the kind of competition within the realistic racing genre that they've never had before."

Having never played a Forza game but having bought all GT games to date, I'

Every once and awhile there's a game that takes a long time in development that comes out really good, but in general, once they go past a couple years it is a good bet they are going to suck. There's just only so much time you can usefully spend on a game. In part this is because technology moves fast, so at some point you have to commit things and put together a final product. If not, you do get a DNF scenario where you keep spending time upgrading shit and not doing anything.

This. During the first stage, people come up with all sorts of ideas and start putting them together. If management asks when it will be done, they reply "when it's finished". That answer is fine at that point.

But if you've gotten to the second stage and you're still saying that, something is wrong. If your people are sufficiently creative, they'll be coming up with more ideas than they possibly have time to implement. You need to pick the features that are really necessary and concentrate on those.

I thought it was fine. I really enjoyed GT 1 and 2, but since then I've been away from home studying and didn't have regular access to a PS2 for GT 3 and 4. I have a few other decent driving games for my PS3, and while I'm looking forward to GT5 (and I did enjoy both prologue and this demo), I don't have any amazing expectations. Finding out about the actual visible damage is cool, but GT has always been a high standard. I really like that they are including more cars again because one of my favourite thing

I recall Gran Turismo 4 taking about as long to complete as well. Fantastic game, but took about 3x as long to deliver as they needed. I bought a PS2 specifically for GT4, but it was then delayed about two years before release. I've since given up on buying consoles.

For the past 2 to 3 years I have been harping on at numerous forums how I'm not entirely convinced that Polyphony Digital actually know what the hell they are doing.GT4 was a splendid game for the time, the physics were great for a PS2 and 'semi' realistic racer (see: Proper PC Sims for insane physics but much much more niche) the menu music was nice and I liked how they didn't throw cars at you like dollar notes to a stripper, I had to 'bond' with my first car and work my way up with it. I had that MX5 for about 50 races.

Now, if you actually read any articles and interviews, the GT guys seem to want to add every single possible gametype to the game.WRC, F1, Nascar, 'standard' racing cars and of course modified real cars too. Apparently they are going to be able to handle the driving physics and engines for all these types (oh and motorbikes in the latest news articles!)I think they are diluting the hell out of the game just trying to throw anything and everything at it.

Forza has a few good things going for it, for one it has probably some of the best rumble and audio queues in a racing game since Rallisport challenge 2. As ridiculous as it sounds, you feel as if you really can feel the track / wheel traction just from a controller. The audio is very good at distinguishing traction, the rumble is just right and combined they work well.GT however has been re-using the same 'arcade style' traction squeel which sounds like it came out of Outrun since GT3.No, I'm not joking, go and play GT3, GT4, GT4 Prologue, GT5 Prologue, GT5 Limited Jap demo, GT HD Concept and finally GT Academy - the tire squeel sound is not only the same, it's just plain annoying!

While I'm at it, they keep releasing things like GT HD Concept, GT5 Jap Demo, GT5 Prologue, GT Academy (Europe series and Aus/NZ series!) and I believe I'm missing one of the GT5 demos too... can I just be blunt and say, where the heck is the game for goodness sakes? Now in the time that GT4 has shipped, Turn 10 under Microsoft have shipped Forza 1, Forza 2 and Forza 3, furthermore it's not like they "madden'd!" the Forza series, each game had quite a fair while between each release with substantial changes to them and improvements.Example Forza 1 and 2 had crappy emo rock thrashy music in the menus which just got on your nerves, whereas GT4 - credit where credit is due had this very laid back elevator style music you could (and would) comfortably listen to all day in a 12 hour rainy Sunday racing and upgrading session. Now Forza 3 has some pretty relaxed menu beats, rewind feature (best thing EVER for anyone who isn't an extreme racer) You've got brilliant graphics, a car trading and buying system - etc.

Also if you listened to the 1up podcasts about 18 months back Shane Bettenhausen quoted the Polyphony GT guys as basically saying "we're the best, we don't care about the competition we literally haven't even seen Forza 1 or 2" this arrogance frankly pisses me off as I just want a good product from both companies. Forza 2 most certainly WAS worth PD looking at, there are several improvements. (FWIW They finally did sneak a peak at F3 mid 2009 if I recall, the game was delayed a few months later)

So why am I posting this? I'm basically sick of speaking to mates or anyone really about games and when GT comes up it's "wow, amazing, best ever, insane!" along with "GT5 will be best/better/amazing" along with "Forza is arcadey shit" (Me:) "Have you played it?" "Nah but I've seen it!" - that's a real conversation I've had with not 1 but 2 normally intelligent people.I love my PS3, vastly more than my 360 and genuinely dislike the business model of XBLive Gold, dislike the nickel and diming, dislike the reliability issues and I still purchased a 360 JUST for Forza 3 and it was worth every cent.

I may as well get the whole rant out there.GT5 Prologue, no car modding? for 60$ AUD (40$ US?) you have to be bloody joking!Also, I may be called a heathen but between the good feedback audio, controller rumble

I teeter right on the edge of hardcore, so I very very nearly purchased a 700$ AUD wheel (only multiplatform one in existence >:( ) but I do still enjoy laying back on the couch and relaxing.

Richard Burns Rally had the best most insane physics for a WRC game ever, it was too hard for me to dedicate myself to and I'm sure it's fun but it's just a time thing.I'm the perfect GT or Forza demographic, I'll throw 50 hours at a great racing game but probably quit there, I also don't like the idea of sitting at

It's ideas like this that will get the sports car killed for the everyman. Racing is for the track, not the public road, unless that public road has been designated a track like they do with rally and other forms of road racing.
Read this [mgexperience.net] and see if you can see it happening.

Now, if you actually read any articles and interviews, the GT guys seem to want to add every single possible gametype to the game.WRC, F1, Nascar, 'standard' racing cars and of course modified real cars too. Apparently they are going to be able to handle the driving physics and engines for all these types

For the past 2 to 3 years I have been harping on at numerous forums how I'm not entirely convinced that Polyphony Digital actually know what the hell they are doing.

I've been trying to explain this to my friends for the past few years, I loved GT1 and GT2, heck even GT3/4 were entertaining to a degree. But GT was never really a Sim, and with all the crap they are trying to throw into GT5, it won't be a sim either. It's just a fun racing game IMO.

It has a small assortment of racing cars, reason being all the cars are modeled realistically. It's more of a professional sim/MMO style "game," I hesitate to call it a game as it is used extensively by race car drivers for professional practice. All of the race tracks are laser scanned and have incredible accuracy. Damage modeling works fairly well in the game too, however vehicle dynamics have no competition.

Cool.
Does it have damage modelling? And a wide assortment of cars from most manufacturers?

Not much and no. The goal of iRacing is to create a realistic online racing experience - damage modeling is weak, and the car selection is limited (but the cars are equal, and represent real-world race cars). Check out some of the reviews for more information - there are plenty out there. The physics are extremely realistic - among the best that I've ever seen. The graphics are clearly not the focus of this game - if you're looking for the best eye candy out there, this game isn't for you. One of the p

Forza is about cars. Gran Turismo is about driving. Until i see crazy shit like the Model T, crazy 60's racers, and the DeLorean in Forza, no sale. Gran Turismo is a love letter to the car. Forza's a book report.

I would have agreed with the GP up until they started yanking all of the fluff about the cars from the game starting with GT3 (I think? It's been a while).

Gran Turismo and GT2 was like Pokemon for cars. The thing is that there was all sorts of little facts that were put into the game about the cars (and tracks) that made made the game very interesting for car lovers as myself, and caused us to dig for mor information on the things we really liked.

I've played all the Gran Turismo for PS1 and 2, Forza 2 & 3 and I'd say its more accurate to say Forza is the spiritual successor to GT. I've checked out the previews for GT5 (I don't own a PS3) and I think GT lost its way. The poster above did a really good job explaining why Forza is better now.

not to be too picky but i'll be buying GT5 mostly for the dirt tracks/WRC mode, unless you know of a different PS3 rally "sim"? Also, Forza3 seems to be xbox360 only, so that would be what? $200+$60 for xbox+forza. too much to "try it out"

Funny. My justification for buying a 360 over a PS3 was that $300+$60 for a full game (forza 2) was cheaper than $400+$40 for a demo (gt5 prolog). Of course, that was back when both consoles were still fairly new.

As ridiculous as it sounds, you feel as if you really can feel the track / wheel traction just from a controller. The audio is very good at distinguishing traction, the rumble is just right and combined they work well.

Not ridiculous at all. "Real" racing sims are unplayable without audible cues. This goes back to one of the pioneers, Grand Prix Legends. Force feedback was a bit of a gimmick back then, but I don't know if it has actually matured to a level of improving the realism by giving drivers real cues to directional stability, because I haven't played a good racing sim since NASCAR2003.

Oh yeah, and another thing, real racing sims don't fret about menu music choices, and you don't have to unlock cars or complete levels. Those things are very important for a casual game, but merely a distraction to developing a good sim.

One last thing...you should never talk about any camera view other than the cockpit view if you are talking about a serious racing sim. Who cares if the bumper cam is off (and how would you know...have you drive your car from the bumper before).

Other than that, I enjoyed your post and will probably be buying an Xbox 360 and Forza, because I tried GT5 prologue and was underwhelmed, and frankly, I'm tired of waiting for something I'm starting to believe won't live up to the hype.

I understand your sentiment on the cockpit view completely and Forza's is pretty good but they do obfuscate (sp?) the view quite badly unless you have a mammoth television.I find the roof camera (basically it's cockpit +1.5' height, minus controls) is the best one in Forza.I am not one of those dopey kiddies who does rear view third person just to see my car, that's not racing at all, it's just that both games's cockpit view is simply too small to see anything, it's all to do with FOV and TV size - if you d

considering that polyphony has broken ground with everything they've released, i don't think it's unrealistic to wait a little longer for them to reinvent the wheel.

having played the demo of gt5, i'm excited to see the whole game. personally, i don't think it needs some of the silliness that forza has added, but i haven't played anything past the first installment (ai drivers that drive race cars like bumper cars? what a waste).

i do like that the gran turismo series has stayed fairly strict to the spirit o

having played the demo of gt5, i'm excited to see the whole game. personally, i don't think it needs some of the silliness that forza has added, but i haven't played anything past the first installment (ai drivers that drive race cars like bumper cars? what a waste).

Wow, way to state and invalidate your opinion in the same sentence.

I played GT, GT2, GT3 and GT4 to death. You can't honestly say anything about the AI in Forza. The AI in the GT series isn't exactly good.

Your post reads EXACTLY like the type of post I was talking about earlier, blind loyalty and dismissive of the competition without trying it properly.Brand loyalty is fine and all but using some common sense and being objective can help y'know.

i am not blindly loyal to any one line of product, the gran turismo series has consistently been superior to everything else i've played. i did not play the first part of the series, but from 2 onward, i've not been disappointed.

with the exception of forza and toca, all of the others are very cartoony games that leave a lot to be desired in realism, track selection, performance, variations, modifications, and ai. toca and forza fall short in many categories, but they're better than most. given the compar

So you don't have a PS3 or a 360 so I can only conclude you haven't played GT5 Prologue or Forza 3?Forza 3 is a huge improvement over Forza 2 and has effectively rendered the game totally null and void, simply no reason to play it as they have moved on in many many ways.

GT5 Prologue however, you've played it, you've totally played it, do you know why? Because it's bloody identical to GT4 except HD, substantially less cars and no car modding (for 40$ US - awesome!)Each and ever GT product since GT4, even dem

actually, i rented a ps3 and downloaded the prologue demo for free. if you think that gran turismo 5 is identical to 4, i have to wonder if you were able to distinguish a difference between 2 and 3 or 3 and 4.

i am encouraged by your review of forza 3 and comparing it to the previous 2 parts of the series. when i next have a couple of days to devote to some serious electronic gaming, i will make it a point to rent an xbox360 and see if forza 3 gives the same kind of excitement that gran turismo 3 did when

The problem is, the last couple of GT's seem to be designed with the assumption that the player is using a wheel. I bet I could actually beat some of those "impossible" license tests with a wheel, that I simply can't do with the dual shock.

I think I actually made it through most of the GT4 license tests using the gamepad.

However, I remember floundering for a long, long time at the last Sport license test (the full Nurburgring in that crappy Mercedes)... So yes, after getting the wheel and practicing it a few times more I finally passed that one:P

It's fun watching the reference run, where they're obviously using a wheel and you can see the pro's exact control inputs. Well, that is to say, it's fun after struggling with the track a bit and w

When I play games on consoles I tend to lean towards racing and sports games and Gran Turismo was always one of my favorites. Then when the X-Box came out I switched to that for the Project Gotham Racing and then Forza was released so I switched to that because it just seemed like a better all around game. Anyway, I have not had a chance to play Gran Turismo for the past few releases because no one I know owns a Play Station for me to try it. I was wondering if anyone can give me an insight as to how the

GT5 Prologue featured the same stiff, unnatural physics endemic to the entire series. However, in early December a time trial demo of GT5 was released which impressed me with how the physics engine had been improved. The featured car, a Nissan 370Z in the game seemed to handle more accurately, from the replays the car shifted around more convincingly and I'm pretty sure they're even accounting for tire flex. Although the demo did suffer from the same problem I've found in the GT series overall where a car s

Have you played Forza3 with the 360 wheel? As the wheel was designed in conjunction with Forza2 and always felt the integration is very tight and good. The amount of feel you receive through the force feedback is fantastic. You know exactly what the front of the car is doing.

I'll just go buy a 360 and get Forza. GT5 might be better than Forza, but at this rate, I'll never know. Being able to play something is better than waiting for something that might not even be as good as what I can play now.

I waited until this spring to buy a PS2 since I only wanted it for GT4. I've since bought a few other games, mostly for my son (6 years old loves lego starwars). When I bought the refurbished console and GT4 I also shopped for and found a nice Logitech Driving Force Pro. With the control pad I was unable to complete the Nurburgring license test, but with the wheel I pulled it off. Anyway I would love to find other driving games that use the wheel on the ps2. There has to be one or two. A really arcade

I've read all the comments and have seen a lot of people mention Forza and a few other racing games but no one has mentioned Colin McRae DiRT 2. I personally love rally games more than standard track racing games due to the skill in timing the corners and speed with slides. The inclusion of rally in GT 5 is definitely a main point of interest for myself and it should keep me busy for awhile until the WRC PS3 game comes out!
So what's the general opinion on DiRT 2?

Dirt 2 is an almost-excellent game, ruined by the inclusion of what I am going to call "Tad". Tad does the voice-overs work for the game. He might even have an actual name, but I've willed myself to forget it. Tad personifies every negative stereotype of the idiot XTREME FRAT BOY XTREME SPORTS XTREME DUDE. I own Dirt 2 for the PS3 and have tried to play it a number of times. The graphics are excellent, the physics are good, if slightly arcadey, and the opponent AI is adequate. But every time I start to enjo