Has anyone seen the documentary "The Spirit Molecule"? If not some of you might find it fascinating. I downloaded it as a torrent but I think there is a YouTube version of it that is just over an hour long. It talks about the use of DMT, which is a drug(substance that is in every living thing) it has been used for thousands of years in other cultures as a spiritual experience and is a real good view on why all religions share a common theme. I'm not posting this to say "hey there's this drug you should try!" But rather to let you hear the experiences associated with this ritual that has the potential to change the way you see yourself and the whole universe.
If you have some time download it and see what you think.

It's also on Netflix under the documentary section. Fascinating stuff, I have a bag of ayahuasca right now but to date have not made any of the magical drink. It is legal to buy in the US. On YouTube you will also find many videos of people who have tried it and tell of their experiences.

I believe this is what started many of the god experiences that led to the development of religion.

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After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands.

One that at some point on the African plains, being overly paranoid about unseen and made up "spirits" bestowed an evolutionary advantage (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304198004575172233981688208.html). This would no longer be the case now and since we moved from the plains of Africa, I'd argue that belief in unseen men in the sky or devils below has killed far more of our species than predators in the grass.

It's not too inconceivable to think that there's some evolutionary or genetic aspect to belief in religion and all of the interbreeding between believers not only tightens the social knots holding the group together, but leads to more maleable offspring. If there were a genetic connection, I'm happy to have a genetic mutation that makes me question authority and not jump at shadows unless I'm in the woods.

BTW, the spirit molecule sounds cool...if truely legal, I may be hitting that. Just wish LSD were legal...

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“Nell,” the Constable continued, indicating through his tone of voice that the lesson was concluding, “the difference between ignorant and educated people is that the latter know more facts. But that has nothing to do with whether they are stupid or intelligent. The difference between stupid and intelligent people—and this is true whether or not they are well-educated—is that intelligent people can handle subtlety. They are not baffled by ambiguous or even contradictory situations—in fact, they expect them and are apt to become suspicious when things seem overly straightforward.”

Speaking of DMT...Joseph Smith, Jr. looked to Luman Walter as an occult mentor who taught JS in the ways of DMT. JS wore a stuffed Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad stuffed with 5-MeO-DMT around his neck. 5-MeO-DMT is the most potent form of DMT on the planet. 5-MeO-DMT is found in the glands of the Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad. JS would harvest the 5-MeO-DMT by squeezing the venom onto glass where he would allow it to dry and then scrape it off with a razor and stuff the flakes into the dead toad. He would then smoke the flakes and have his DMT trip. Little has been said about this but there is strong evidence to suggest that JS used DMT, Amanita Muscaria, and Datura, as entheogens. Peyote has been suggested as well.
"The spirit like a fire is burning" as recorded in the Kirkland, Ohio temple dedication was, some would say, a result of Amanita Mascaria-laced wine. At the time the sacrament was wine and a glass full not a micro cup. It would describe the wild hallucinations recorded.
I had a Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad for a few years. Its glands are loaded with venom. It is not illegal to possess the toad. However it is illegal to milk (squeeze the venom from its glands located on its arms and legs) the toad. Humans sucking on a toad is more mythological than fact. Animals that chew on a toad cause the glands to release venom and in most cases the animal dies.
DMT is primarily released into the brain during deep sleep...typically REM-Deep Alpha or Delta, by the Pineal Gland. The Pineal Gland has rods and cones just like the eye only the Pineal Gland is directed upward. Calcification of the Pineal Gland, primarily caused by diet, has reduced its effectiveness. Some say DMT is the gateway and what the Ancients used to open their consciousness to other dimensions.

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Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide

DaveManCan:
Speaking of DMT...Joseph Smith, Jr. looked to Luman Walter as an occult mentor who taught JS in the ways of DMT. JS wore a stuffed Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad stuffed with 5-MeO-DMT around his neck. 5-MeO-DMT is the most potent form of DMT on the planet. 5-MeO-DMT is found in the glands of the Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad. JS would harvest the 5-MeO-DMT by squeezing the venom onto glass where he would allow it to dry and then scrape it off with a razor and stuff the flakes into the dead toad. He would then smoke the flakes and have his DMT trip. Little has been said about this but there is strong evidence to suggest that JS used DMT, Amanita Muscaria, and Datura, as entheogens. Peyote has been suggested as well.
"The spirit like a fire is burning" as recorded in the Kirkland, Ohio temple dedication was, some would say, a result of Amanita Mascaria-laced wine. At the time the sacrament was wine and a glass full not a micro cup. It would describe the wild hallucinations recorded.
I had a Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad for a few years. Its glands are loaded with venom. It is not illegal to possess the toad. However it is illegal to milk (squeeze the venom from its glands located on its arms and legs) the toad. Humans sucking on a toad is more mythological than fact. Animals that chew on a toad cause the glands to release venom and in most cases the animal dies.
DMT is primarily released into the brain during deep sleep...typically REM-Deep Alpha or Delta, by the Pineal Gland. The Pineal Gland has rods and cones just like the eye only the Pineal Gland is directed upward. Calcification of the Pineal Gland, primarily caused by diet, has reduced its effectiveness. Some say DMT is the gateway and what the Ancients used to open their consciousness to other dimensions.

WTF?

If this is a joke, it's awesome.

If it's not, it's even more effing hillarious and will someday be seen on a bigscreen near you, next door to the porn shop showing the true life story of Joseph Smith's sex life. I'd include that great scene in a parody of Joseph's Myth, but the movies could only legally be possessed in Thailand.

I'd get thrown in prison for making a video about the REAL story of Joseph's Myth, but 14 million stupid sheeple sing "Praise to the Prophet Rapist" every GD weekend?

Was I ever that crazy?

No. Ignorance is no excuse. You've got the internet.

Use it or lose it.

If there were a holy war someday soon, between the religious nut jobs, Muslims, Jews, Christians who can't seem to agree on whether or not to call their shithole of a country, Israel or Palestine, ever since WWII, who's side would you choose?
White or Black?

Droid Drone or human?

Google or God?

Droid Drone transporter or Pandora

Red or Blue?

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“It is time we realized that the endgame for civilization is not political correctness. It is not respect for the abject religious certainties of the mob. It is reason.”
Sam Harris

In 1822 and 1823, Luman Walter served as a seer for a treasure dig on the property of Abner Cole in Palmyra, Wayne County, New York. Joseph Smith, Sr., Alvin Smith, and Joseph Smith, Jr. reportedly participated in this dig. Walter possessed a magical book and a seerstone, which he used to locate buried treasure. Walter is said to have conducted three unsuccessful digs on the hill Cumorah, but later suggests that only Smith might be able to find the treasure there.

Luman Walter returned to the United States by 1818, and began acting the part of a physician and occult expert. In that year, the deputy sheriff of Boscawen, New Hampshire, one James Giddings, offered a reward for the arrest of a "Transient person, calling himself Laman Walter, [who] has for several days past been imposing himself upon the credulity of the people in this vicinity by a pretended knowledge of magic, palmistry and conjuration...." Since Laman is not uncommon as a spelling variation for Luman, this person is likely Luman Walter. Luman was arrested for "juggling" that August in Hopkinton, New Hampshire, but escaped from jail.

Abner Cole, a newspaper editor by profession, printed a parody of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Pukei, in his Palmyra paper The Reflector in 1830. This parody described the role of "Walters the Magician" in these treasure digs, who "sacrificed a Cock for the purpose of propitiating the prince of spirits .... And he took his book, and his rusty sword, and his magic stone, and his stuffed Toad, and all his implements of witchcraft and retired to the mountains near Great Sodus Bay".Cole also surmised that Joseph Smith Jr. worked under the inspiration of "Walters the Magician."

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Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide

These early Church members sought direct experience with God and believed that Joseph Smith had the power to grant their desires. Confidence in their Prophet was not misplaced. Between 1830 and 1836, under the supervision of Joseph Smith, many early Mormon converts enjoyed heavenly visions and spiritual raptures. However, after Joseph’s death in 1844, the great visionary period of Church history came to an end.

The mystery seems to center around Joseph Smith himself. According to church historian Richard Bushman, it was Joseph Smith himself that connected converts to heaven by some power that he possessed, a power that remains a mystery to this day.(Bushman, R. L. (2005). Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. New York: Alfred A. Knopf. P. 560)

Over the last 50 years Joseph Smith-like spiritual power has come under examination by an ever increasing number of anthropologists, religious historians, ethnobotanists and ethnomycologists. It now appears that spiritual power comparable to that of Joseph Smith can be acquired in the course of consuming visionary plants, mushrooms and cactus. Otherwise known as psychedelics and hallucinogens, when these visionary materials are taken in a religious setting, they are often referred to as entheogens. An entheogen is any substance, such as a plant or drug, taken to occasion a heavenly vision or spiritual rapture.

How available were entheogens to Joseph Smith? In 1998, Richard Evans Schultes, former director of the Botanical Museum of Harvard University and the “father of ethnobotany” identified three culturally important entheogens available in the area Joseph lived and traveled: Datura plant, Amanita muscaria mushroom and peyote cactus.

A possible mentor for Joseph Smith in the use of Datura was Black Pete. Black Pete, an African-American was called a revelator and a chief suggesting that he was also a root doctor. Black Pete was initially from Pennsylvania and in 1825 may have met the young Joseph Smith digging for buried treasure. After leaving Pennsylvania, Black Pete became one of the earliest converts in Kirtland Ohio joining the Church in early 1831.

As an early convert to Mormonism, Black Pete was described as "a chief man" who was "sometimes seized with strange vagaries and odd conceits." On at least one occasion Pete fancied he could "fly" and later recollections have him chasing "a ball that he said he saw flying in the air" or "revelations carried by a black angel." (Dialogue, Vol.12, No.2, p.24)

Alchemists are believed to have employed the visionary Amanita muscaria mushroom in their occult practices and historian Lance Owens identifies a possible alchemical mentor for Joseph Smith by the name of Dr. Luman Walter. Owens explains:

Dr. Walter was a distant cousin of Smith's future wife [Emma] and a member of the circle associated with Smith's early treasure quests. By contemporary reports he was not only a physician, but a magician and mesmerist who had traveled extensively in Europe to obtain "profound learning"--probably including knowledge of alchemy, Paracelcian medicine, and hermetic lore. (Lance Owens 1994a.)

Joseph Smith's 1833 "School of the Prophets" was also a place where fasting, wine and vision went together. One participant later described the visions during the School of the Prophets:

-

The brethren always went fasting; they went in the morning, remained until about four o'clock in the afternoon, when each had a glass of wine and piece of bread, after the ancient pattern. At every meeting the washing of feet was attended to.

At one of these meetings after the organization of the school, [Spring 1833] when we were all together ... a personage walked through the room from east to west, and Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and suppose the others did and Joseph answered, "that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother."

Another person came through; he was surrounded as with a flame of fire. He (Brother Coltrin) experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness. The Prophet Joseph said, "this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." I saw Him. And the sensation was so powerful that it thrilled through my whole system and I felt it in the marrow of my bones. The Prophet Joseph said: Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son.

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Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide

Pineal gland biochemistry in humans was what I did for a living for several years, at both University of London and MIT. My colleagues and I in the UK were credited with the absolute identification of the pineal hormone melatonin in humans.

In the course of this work we synthesized any number of tryptophan derivatives, including DMT and several of its derivatives, for possible use as internal standards to be used in quantification of melatonin and related pineal indoles in human plasma and CSF samples. We had a whole library of these compounds (because they are not difficult or expensive to synthesize) and had several in vitro and in vivo tests for their biological activity. However, we were barred by our human studies committees from administering them to humans, including ourselves.

From our lab assays and tests, however, we were able to make some nice structure-activity maps of the tryptophan derivatives.

At that time, in the late 1970s, DMT was considered a minor pineal product known to be hallucinogenic.

We knew that all of the enzymes needed for its production from tryptophan were present in the pineal. However, it was found in such low concentrations compared to melatonin in peripheral blood and CSF that we did not believe that it was important as a hormonal regulator, as melatonin had been shown to be. Melatonin was our main interest.

A few years ago, I made a series of posts here on the pineal gland and evolution. DMT is shown in one of the graphics I posted as a tryptophan derivative, along with the structures of a number of other naturally occurring tryptophan derivatives that are also hallucinogenic.

If anyone here is thinking about experiencing DMT, I would advise caution, and would insist on naturally sourced material from a reliable supplier. Certain tryptophan derivatives can be neurotoxic, and these have a nasty habit of showing up as by-products in inadequately controlled synthetic materials.

DaveManCan:
Speaking of DMT...Joseph Smith, Jr. looked to Luman Walter as an occult mentor who taught JS in the ways of DMT. JS wore a stuffed Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad stuffed with 5-MeO-DMT around his neck. 5-MeO-DMT is the most potent form of DMT on the planet. 5-MeO-DMT is found in the glands of the Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad. JS would harvest the 5-MeO-DMT by squeezing the venom onto glass where he would allow it to dry and then scrape it off with a razor and stuff the flakes into the dead toad. He would then smoke the flakes and have his DMT trip. Little has been said about this but there is strong evidence to suggest that JS used DMT, Amanita Muscaria, and Datura, as entheogens. Peyote has been suggested as well.
"The spirit like a fire is burning" as recorded in the Kirkland, Ohio temple dedication was, some would say, a result of Amanita Mascaria-laced wine. At the time the sacrament was wine and a glass full not a micro cup. It would describe the wild hallucinations recorded.
I had a Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad for a few years. Its glands are loaded with venom. It is not illegal to possess the toad. However it is illegal to milk (squeeze the venom from its glands located on its arms and legs) the toad. Humans sucking on a toad is more mythological than fact. Animals that chew on a toad cause the glands to release venom and in most cases the animal dies.
DMT is primarily released into the brain during deep sleep...typically REM-Deep Alpha or Delta, by the Pineal Gland. The Pineal Gland has rods and cones just like the eye only the Pineal Gland is directed upward. Calcification of the Pineal Gland, primarily caused by diet, has reduced its effectiveness. Some say DMT is the gateway and what the Ancients used to open their consciousness to other dimensions.

Please count me among those who believe that Joseph Smith used naturally occurring plant derived hallucinogenic compounds to help convince folks that they were in the presence of the spirit oh God when they were around him.

I have looked into this in some detail, and the descriptions given by various folks of the 'outpourings of the spirit' fit quite nicely with the signs and symptoms of, for example, Datura intoxication.

DaveManCan:
Speaking of DMT...Joseph Smith, Jr. looked to Luman Walter as an occult mentor who taught JS in the ways of DMT. JS wore a stuffed Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad stuffed with 5-MeO-DMT around his neck. 5-MeO-DMT is the most potent form of DMT on the planet. 5-MeO-DMT is found in the glands of the Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad. JS would harvest the 5-MeO-DMT by squeezing the venom onto glass where he would allow it to dry and then scrape it off with a razor and stuff the flakes into the dead toad. He would then smoke the flakes and have his DMT trip. Little has been said about this but there is strong evidence to suggest that JS used DMT, Amanita Muscaria, and Datura, as entheogens. Peyote has been suggested as well.
"The spirit like a fire is burning" as recorded in the Kirkland, Ohio temple dedication was, some would say, a result of Amanita Mascaria-laced wine. At the time the sacrament was wine and a glass full not a micro cup. It would describe the wild hallucinations recorded.
I had a Colorado Sonoran Desert Toad for a few years. Its glands are loaded with venom. It is not illegal to possess the toad. However it is illegal to milk (squeeze the venom from its glands located on its arms and legs) the toad. Humans sucking on a toad is more mythological than fact. Animals that chew on a toad cause the glands to release venom and in most cases the animal dies.
DMT is primarily released into the brain during deep sleep...typically REM-Deep Alpha or Delta, by the Pineal Gland. The Pineal Gland has rods and cones just like the eye only the Pineal Gland is directed upward. Calcification of the Pineal Gland, primarily caused by diet, has reduced its effectiveness. Some say DMT is the gateway and what the Ancients used to open their consciousness to other dimensions.

Please count me among those who believe that Joseph Smith used naturally occurring plant derived hallucinogenic compounds to help convince folks that they were in the presence of the spirit oh God when they were around him.

I have looked into this in some detail, and the descriptions given by various folks of the 'outpourings of the spirit' fit quite nicely with the signs and symptoms of, for example, Datura intoxication.

DrW, great info!!! I would love to chat with you realtime about your experiences. Dr Robert Beckstead MD filled me in on some research he was doing on JS and the DMT connection. It is absolutely fascinating when you see that the visions enjoyed by JS and other Saints ended when JS did.

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Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide

Please count me among those who believe that Joseph Smith used naturally occurring plant derived hallucinogenic compounds to help convince folks that they were in the presence of the spirit oh God when they were around him.

Peyote and poison toad, sounds like a hell of a drug!

It got Joseph's Myth laid and that was the main point of Mormonism.

Since it worked so well to get Joseph laid, Brigham perpetuated it and now we have Universities, Main Streets and Hotels in SLC named after a pedophile, rapist megalomaniac.

I have looked into this in some detail, and the descriptions given by various folks of the 'outpourings of the spirit' fit quite nicely with the signs and symptoms of, for example, Datura intoxication.

Sold.

Can you imagine a SouthPark cartoon that featured all of the true history of Joseph's Myth, the poon he slayed, the drugs he did, the tricks he pulled before it all went horribly, horribly right.

What's got me amazed right now is that there are intelligent people, with access to the internet, who choose not to look at the real, verifiable truth, because they're too busy charging ahead, climbing that ladder and making tons of money, so WTF do they care about JS licking a toad or eating a mushroom?

But when it comes to screwing their wives, like JS did, I'll bet they'd have a more emotional reaction.

WHy was it ok for JS and BY to do it, but not Warren Jeffs or Calligula?

What's ironic is that Mormons have a HUGE problem with gay marriage yet when they find out JS 'married' other men's wives, they got no problem with that. They claim God told JS to do that.

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“It is time we realized that the endgame for civilization is not political correctness. It is not respect for the abject religious certainties of the mob. It is reason.”
Sam Harris

Someone asks about DMT and it just so happens there's a history of
it possibly with J.S that someone did research on, then we get a Dr's
history of actual personal research done regarding the Pineal Gland.
Holy Cow!

Though the thread has taken a cool ass turn into the
biochemistry as well as J.S and possible drug assisted manipulation,
I have to admit I still have very much interest in what people think
about the experience itself related to the universe, personal life
growth, evolution and insight etc.

I've seen the documentary and read some of the book and I
think it's very fascinating to say the least. These are not bums who
are sharing their experience but certified Dr's and others in related
fields.

THEY ALL DESCRIBE THE EXPERIENCE AS BEING HIGHLY PROFOUND. The ones in the book and documentary were not able to shrug off the experience to simple illusion whithout gving it some degree of impactful credit and consideration.

Ya see, I have to admit..... (carefully as I don't want recovering
mo's to get the impression that they or we are too off the beaten
path, in a drug way)

..that a couple natural drug experiences after leaving
mormonism did in fact influence the way I look at things in general,
even in the scientific rhelm some. It's hard to forget when you
have an overwhelming experience that makes you view your brains
normal behavior as beyond elementary or even childs play.

I heard it described once as having an experience that made you
realize that you normally have the mental comprehension of a rat.
You have this experience and all of the sudden you have the
consciousness awareness, comprehension and understanding of a human.
That would be so overwhelming and in that moment you may say to
yourself "holy cow" I"m normally a rat!!"
This is crazy!!

It makes you question what you may have thought were the limits of the human mind or at least the most important points.

the experience put me at a genius level I never thought possible.
I realize others would say it was just an illusion, but it wasn't.
Perhaps it's possible that the drug enhanced the blood in a certain
portion of the brain or stimulated a portion of my brain in that moment that just doesn't get that type of stimulation normally etc.. I saw
things from angles I had never seen before and it went so far beyond
being able to communicate a strand of it I was at a complete loss for
words. I remember being frustrated with our human language. I felt that my experience was so far reaching that it would have to be communicated beyond words in some way..

I've wondered about DMT. why these doctors would have the
same experience. It's fun to think about. Something you
definitely can't do while your in the mormon church. branching
out to other forms of consideration or inner exploration and
spirituality is just not allowed there

Someone asks about DMT and it just so happens there's a history of
it possibly with J.S that someone did research on, then we get a Dr's
history of actual personal research done regarding the Pineal Gland.
Holy Cow!

Though the thread has taken a cool ass turn into the
biochemistry as well as J.S and possible drug assisted manipulation,
I have to admit I still have very much interest in what people think
about the experience itself related to the universe, personal life
growth, evolution and insight etc.

I've seen the documentary and read some of the book and I
think it's very fascinating to say the least. These are not bums who
are sharing their experience but certified Dr's and others in related
fields.

THEY ALL DESCRIBE THE EXPERIENCE AS BEING HIGHLY PROFOUND. The ones in the book and documentary were not able to shrug off the experience to simple illusion whithout gving it some degree of impactful credit and consideration.

Ya see, I have to admit..... (carefully as I don't want recovering
mo's to get the impression that they or we are too off the beaten
path, in a drug way)

..that a couple natural drug experiences after leaving
mormonism did in fact influence the way I look at things in general,
even in the scientific rhelm some. It's hard to forget when you
have an overwhelming experience that makes you view your brains
normal behavior as beyond elementary or even childs play.

I heard it described once as having an experience that made you
realize that you normally have the mental comprehension of a rat.
You have this experience and all of the sudden you have the
consciousness awareness, comprehension and understanding of a human.
That would be so overwhelming and in that moment you may say to
yourself "holy cow" I"m normally a rat!!"
This is crazy!!

It makes you question what you may have thought were the limits of the human mind or at least the most important points.

the experience put me at a genius level I never thought possible.
I realize others would say it was just an illusion, but it wasn't.
Perhaps it's possible that the drug enhanced the blood in a certain
portion of the brain or stimulated a portion of my brain in that moment that just doesn't get that type of stimulation normally etc.. I saw
things from angles I had never seen before and it went so far beyond
being able to communicate a strand of it I was at a complete loss for
words. I remember being frustrated with our human language. I felt that my experience was so far reaching that it would have to be communicated beyond words in some way..

I've wondered about DMT. why these doctors would have the
same experience. It's fun to think about. Something you
definitely can't do while your in the mormon church. branching
out to other forms of consideration or inner exploration and
spirituality is just not allowed there

This is a very interesting perspective and one that I share to some extent. When I was still in school, I had an opportunity to test whether or not the short lived residual "halo" aftereffect of the use of certain psychedelics really did increase insight or brain capacity in the real world.

Without going into any detail, (except to say that the outcome involved the one and only physics final that I ever aced in my entire life) I can report that, at least in one case, the perceived insight was validated in the real world.

Whether the outcome was due to a temporary increase intellectual capacity or simply a residual emotional feeling of confidence and well being, I cannot say. I did ace a difficult test in the real world and so it doesn't really matter.

The sigma-1 receptor is widely distributed in the central nervous system and periphery. Originally mischaracterized as an opioid receptor, the sigma-1 receptor binds a vast number of synthetic compounds but does not bind opioid peptides; it is currently considered an orphan receptor. The sigma-1 receptor pharmacophore includes an alkylamine core, also found in the endogenous compound N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT). DMT acts as a hallucinogen, but its receptor target has been unclear. DMT bound to sigma-1 receptors and inhibited voltage-gated sodium ion (Na+) channels in both native cardiac myocytes and heterologous cells that express sigma-1 receptors. DMT induced hypermobility in wild-type mice but not in sigma-1 receptor knockout mice. These biochemical, physiological, and behavioral experiments indicate that DMT is an endogenous agonist for the sigma-1 receptor.

The fact that DMT is made in the brain AND has its own receptor (even if it is an orphan) is a good indication that somewhere in our evolutionary past, DMT may have been more important to humans than it is now. Most other hallucinogens work by fairly non-specific activation or blocking of receptors for other neurotransmitters such as serotonin, dopamine, etc. I see the fact that DMT apparently has its own receptor (or at least one that likes it very much) as significant. (The positive knock-out gene [or receptor] test mentioned makes this conclusion pretty much unassailable.)

For those who may not know the story, the opioid receptors described in the abstract were discovered because scientists wondered why it was that the opium derived drugs seemed to have such potent and specific effects. It was discovered that they occupied a distinct class of receptors for which there was initially no known endogenous ligand (a ligand is a small molecule that binds to a receptor).

Scientists then looked for and eventually discovered the so-called endogenous opioids. These are the feel-good compounds, such as the endorphins, that are released naturally during vigorous exercise (or most kinds of sexual activity, vigorous or not).

So, now it would appear that we have another ligand for a specific type of receptor that is (or was) considered an orphan.

Makes one think about perhaps having a second look at DMT.

________________________________________________

(BTW, if all this was covered in the Spirit Molecule documentary, I apologize. I could only handle so much of people describing their subjective interpretation of the DMT experience while being assaulted with computer generate psychedelic screen saver images. I had hoped for more biochemistry and less woo woo.

DrW Said:
"The fact that DMT is made in the brain AND has its own receptor (even if it is an orphan) is a good indication that somewhere in our evolutionary past, DMT may have been more important to humans than it is now."
I love this. Thanks for sharing DrW. I feel DMT is an amazing part of human physiology. It would behove us all to know more and it sounds like you have had hands on experience from a lab point of view. =)

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Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide

How awesome that we have someone on this board has actually been involved in research about something I just found out about. I found the most interesting part about DMT is that all living things have it(or the ability to make it) which to me is a clear link between all of us and everything around us. I have used LSD and mushrooms a few times and the experience that I had on mild trips where something truly amazing and something that really changed my life for the better each time. I don't think that they should be taken as a recreational substance, but everyone can bennefit from the effects they cause. It truly is like lifting a veil and seeing a new world and the connection we have to the universe.

fawkes:
How awesome that we have someone on this board has actually been involved in research about something I just found out about. I found the most interesting part about DMT is that all living things have it(or the ability to make it) which to me is a clear link between all of us and everything around us. I have used LSD and mushrooms a few times and the experience that I had on mild trips where something truly amazing and something that really changed my life for the better each time. I don't think that they should be taken as a recreational substance, but everyone can bennefit from the effects they cause. It truly is like lifting a veil and seeing a new world and the connection we have to the universe.

What's really cool is we can explore the possibilities openly wihout the fear of being called on the carpet with the threat of eternal consequence. How refreshing.

Signature

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide

Someone asks about DMT and it just so happens there's a history of it possibly with J.S that someone did research on, then we get a Dr's history of actual personal research done regarding the Pineal Gland. Holy Cow!

Though the thread has taken a cool ass turn into the biochemistry as well as J.S and possible drug assisted manipulation, I have to admit I still have very much interest in what people think about the experience itself related to the universe, personal life growth, evolution and insight etc.

I've seen the documentary and read some of the book and I think it's very fascinating to say the least. These are not bums who are sharing their experience but certified Dr's and others in related fields.

THEY ALL DESCRIBE THE EXPERIENCE AS BEING HIGHLY PROFOUND. The ones in the book and documentary were not able to shrug off the experience to simple illusion whithout gving it some degree of impactful credit and consideration.

Ya see, I have to admit..... (carefully as I don't want recovering mo's to get the impression that they or we are too off the beaten path, in a drug way)

..that a couple natural drug experiences after leaving mormonism did in fact influence the way I look at things in general, even in the scientific rhelm some. It's hard to forget when you have an overwhelming experience that makes you view your brains normal behavior as beyond elementary or even childs play.

I heard it described once as having an experience that made you realize that you normally have the mental comprehension of a rat. You have this experience and all of the sudden you have the consciousness awareness, comprehension and understanding of a human. That would be so overwhelming and in that moment you may say to yourself "holy cow" I"m normally a rat!!" This is crazy!!

It makes you question what you may have thought were the limits of the human mind or at least the most important points.

the experience put me at a genius level I never thought possible. I realize others would say it was just an illusion, but it wasn't. Perhaps it's possible that the drug enhanced the blood in a certain portion of the brain or stimulated a portion of my brain in that moment that just doesn't get that type of stimulation normally etc.. I saw things from angles I had never seen before and it went so far beyond being able to communicate a strand of it I was at a complete loss for words.

I've wondered about DMT. why these doctors would have the same experience. It's fun to think about. Something you definitely can't do while your in the mormon church. branching out to other forms of consideration or inner exploration and spirituality is just not allowed there

I remember being frustrated with our human language. I felt that my experience was so far reaching that it would have to be communicated beyond words in some way..

Alrighty, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this sounds an awful lot like "awakening" or nirvana. I've heard of meditators who have claimed to have had a similar experience briefly. This wouldn't really surprise me seeing as the whole purpose to meditation, Zen, and Buddhism in general, is to step outside your your own mental paridigm and see everything for what it is, not what you wish it to be. I wonder if we can create this effect ourselves, maybe through intense mental training?

This also sounds pretty Zen. It is thought an experience must be felt, not explained for words just don't do it justice. Interesting....I'm going to be pondering this the rest of the night, lol.

Btw, this is a cool thread. I knew no one could come up with the crap JS did without being high, lol.

Someone asks about DMT and it just so happens there's a history of it possibly with J.S that someone did research on, then we get a Dr's history of actual personal research done regarding the Pineal Gland. Holy Cow!

Though the thread has taken a cool ass turn into the biochemistry as well as J.S and possible drug assisted manipulation, I have to admit I still have very much interest in what people think about the experience itself related to the universe, personal life growth, evolution and insight etc.

I've seen the documentary and read some of the book and I think it's very fascinating to say the least. These are not bums who are sharing their experience but certified Dr's and others in related fields.

THEY ALL DESCRIBE THE EXPERIENCE AS BEING HIGHLY PROFOUND. The ones in the book and documentary were not able to shrug off the experience to simple illusion whithout gving it some degree of impactful credit and consideration.

Ya see, I have to admit..... (carefully as I don't want recovering mo's to get the impression that they or we are too off the beaten path, in a drug way)

..that a couple natural drug experiences after leaving mormonism did in fact influence the way I look at things in general, even in the scientific rhelm some. It's hard to forget when you have an overwhelming experience that makes you view your brains normal behavior as beyond elementary or even childs play.

I heard it described once as having an experience that made you realize that you normally have the mental comprehension of a rat. You have this experience and all of the sudden you have the consciousness awareness, comprehension and understanding of a human. That would be so overwhelming and in that moment you may say to yourself "holy cow" I"m normally a rat!!" This is crazy!!

It makes you question what you may have thought were the limits of the human mind or at least the most important points.

the experience put me at a genius level I never thought possible. I realize others would say it was just an illusion, but it wasn't. Perhaps it's possible that the drug enhanced the blood in a certain portion of the brain or stimulated a portion of my brain in that moment that just doesn't get that type of stimulation normally etc.. I saw things from angles I had never seen before and it went so far beyond being able to communicate a strand of it I was at a complete loss for words.

I've wondered about DMT. why these doctors would have the same experience. It's fun to think about. Something you definitely can't do while your in the mormon church. branching out to other forms of consideration or inner exploration and spirituality is just not allowed there

I remember being frustrated with our human language. I felt that my experience was so far reaching that it would have to be communicated beyond words in some way..

Alrighty, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this sounds an awful lot like "awakening" or nirvana. I've heard of meditators who have claimed to have had a similar experience briefly. This wouldn't really surprise me seeing as the whole purpose to meditation, Zen, and Buddhism in general, is to step outside your your own mental paridigm and see everything for what it is, not what you wish it to be. I wonder if we can create this effect ourselves, maybe through intense mental training?

This also sounds pretty Zen. It is thought an experience must be felt, not explained for words just don't do it justice. Interesting....I'm going to be pondering this the rest of the night, lol.

Btw, this is a cool thread. I knew no one could come up with the crap JS did without being high, lol.

-Joseph smith's church logically and scientifically is full of
rational holes.. major ones.

-the bible and the judgment make no sense. (rationally)

-the god I once thought I knew has been disproven a million
different ways

-my judgment is sometimes off

-I can depend on science cause gravity has never failed me.

BUT

It's a bit horrifying to know how little we know.

That one experience not only puts you in the seat of many
different angles at once but it shows you how they are connected and
how elementary it all is in your normal daily experience or human
perspective.

So I think it is kind of like an awakening. No other
experience compares. You start to realize that you've spent
your life learning the alphabet (A, then comes B, and
after that is C.. You've been worrying about it. Some people who are
famous or smarter/ with gifted minds may be much further than you;
they may get up to X, or Y or z. you go around telling
everyone what your learning and there's nothing wrong with that.. But
then for one night for one brief period .. your brain shows you not
only words for how those letters can fit together, but sentences for
how those words fit together and then how books can be created with
those sentences forming mass languages, novels and encyclopedias.
Good luck communicating it. Holy shit! Like fitting an ocean thorugh a straw in a second. And you
realize your brain will not come back to that understanding in its
every day state, you will only remember being there.. so to speak.
Like a glimpse.

I definitely experienced the oneness too. it was very easy
to see from other peoples perspectives almost at once. My brain
did it so rapidly that I almost went into a vibratory oneness. In
fact I think I did. There was no judgment. It was like pure intelligence. It was like pure
knowledge. To me in that moment that equaled intelligence.. multiple
perspectives. Somehow it collectively meant unity or a type of
force or power or movement.

It makes me very skeptic about this human experience. It goes so
much farther than this. Even if just in the mind. It goes so very
much farther. So much so that some people would not be ready to view
it. It would be too overwhelming. There is a truth to that matrix
red pill, blue pill analogy and when you are ready to take what and when lol.

Certain naturalists also speak of an ego death.. the part of your mind that protects you in this life convincing you know more than you do or are literally better than others etc..

(Forgive me post mo's!!! I know how this sounds.. ha ha. I do not try to sound spacy or eastern
mysticism like here, and i think post mos need to stick to the basics. I'm not underminding this. Science and basic logic skills is key after mormonsim. I am not expert, just a post mo. but this was just my experience..:) Kind of fun to talk about.. ;)

This is a very interesting perspective and one that I share to some extent. When I was still in school, I had an opportunity to test whether or not the short lived residual "halo" aftereffect of the use of certain psychedelics really did increase insight or brain capacity in the real world.

Without going into any detail, (except to say that the outcome involved the one and only physics final that I ever aced in my entire life) I can report that, at least in one case, the perceived insight was validated in the real world.

Whether the outcome was due to a temporary increase intellectual capacity or simply a residual emotional feeling of confidence and well being, I cannot say. I did ace a difficult test in the real world and so it doesn't really matter.

Wow. very interesting.

An ace is an ace. Very cool.

Ya as for my natural drug experiences they didn't necessarily make me better at science or math but they did give me an awareness that seemed to be higher. When I am doing somethig i kind of have my experience in mind which might help guide me to the right points of what I'm studying. Not sure if that makes any sense. lol It's fascinating to hear that one persons experience was validated in the real world. This may have been out of much more that weren't validated but it is still interesting.

But I am interested in what the experience does for those in the real world. I can see how just the knowledge of greater brain type capacity, even just for a moment could enhance onces perceptions. Thanx for sharing!!

This is a very interesting perspective and one that I share to some extent. When I was still in school, I had an opportunity to test whether or not the short lived residual "halo" aftereffect of the use of certain psychedelics really did increase insight or brain capacity in the real world.

Without going into any detail, (except to say that the outcome involved the one and only physics final that I ever aced in my entire life) I can report that, at least in one case, the perceived insight was validated in the real world.

Whether the outcome was due to a temporary increase intellectual capacity or simply a residual emotional feeling of confidence and well being, I cannot say. I did ace a difficult test in the real world and so it doesn't really matter.

Wow. very interesting.

An ace is an ace. Very cool.

Ya as for my natural drug experiences they didn't necessarily make me better at science or math but they did give me an awareness that seemed to be higher. When I am doing somethig i kind of have my experience in mind which might help guide me to the right points of what I'm studying. Not sure if that makes any sense. lol It's fascinating to hear that one persons experience was validated in the real world. This may have been out of much more that weren't validated but it is still interesting.

But I am interested in what the experience does for those in the real world. I can see how just the knowledge of greater brain type capacity, even just for a moment could enhance onces perceptions. Thanx for sharing!!

Thanks for the comment. Since seeing this thread, I have been thinking about that physics test experience and what might have really happened, given what we have learned about the structure-activity relationships and mechanism of actions of various drugs in the last 30 years.

My area of research was neuroendocrinology, the study of the many interactions between the nervous system and the endocrine system. It is one of these interactions that kicks in to cause the endocrine system (adrenal glands in this case) to release adrenalin into the bloodstream when our primitive brains* perceive physical danger, real or imagined. It takes less less than a tenth of a second after stimulus for this response cascade to be well underway.

This "fight or flight" response that we are all familiar with starts with a signal from the older part of the brain to the endocrine glands. It is sent and received before we are consciously aware of it or have had time to consciously analyze the situation.

Think about the last time that someone really startled you, or better yet, what happened when you heard a sudden, very loud, noise. The response is fast and automatic - heart rate and blood pressure increase, skin sweats, pupils dilate - etc. Your body also had other response of which you were probably not even aware. Your neck and upper torso muscles tightened in preparation to receive a blow. Your leg muscles tightened in preparation to run. This is called the acoustic startle response, and we now know the exact neural pathways involved.

This is the primitive brain preparing you for survival before the frontal cortex (analytical brain*) has a chance to analyze the situation. I have come to learn through personal experience that neuroendocrine responses involving adrenaline are not your friend when you are taking a test.

There are a lot of physiological factors and functions that can affect one's performance on a written test. Giving the analytical parts of the brain a chance to do their job by keeping the primitive emotional brain in check can really affect the outcome. Sometimes the ability to simply stay calm (quiet the primitive brain) and let the analytical brain do its work is the key to success on a test.

A doctor I know will prescribe beta blockers** for his patients who have problems with public speaking or other kinds of performance anxiety. These are situations where an unwanted adrenaline response, such as increased heart rate and sweating, can be a real problem. He says such prescriptions for one time, or limited, use are not uncommon, and that low doses of the drug (2 mg or so) can have effect for up to 24 hours and be quite helpful in stressful situations.

So, if I were asked at this point, I would guess that the calm, assured feeling that we used to call 'afterglow' or 'halo effect' was simply a quieting of the primitive brain that allowed the analytical brain to access memory and do its work. It wasn't as if I hadn't studied for the test.

In looking back, I think what had really been missing in the past (and since, unfortunately), was the ability to control test anxiety. This particular time, it was being controlled chemically.

My analytical brain now tells me that the success on one test was due to was nothing more than that, plus a spot of random luck. My emotional brain had one heluvan experience the night before.

________________

*For those who may not be aware, there really is a so called primitive brain. It is comprised of evolutionary older structures that are mainly involved in reflex response, fear, dominance sexual drive and control. These structures include the thalmus, hypothalmus, hippocampus, amygdala and the basal ganglia. These structures are not visible from the outer surface of the brain.

Surrounding these primitive structures are the various lobes of the cortex, which are the evolutionarily newer parts of the brain visible on its outer surface. These structures are mainly responsible for analytical thought, language, cognition, empathy, socialization, and consciousness itself.

**Beta blockers are so named because they block beta adrenergic (adrenaline) receptors, and thus prevent circulating adrenaline from affecting its target cells. This class of drugs can be useful in controlling hypertension, but in larger dosages, their side effects (such as fatigue during even moderate exercise) can be a problem. There are much better first line drugs out there now for hypertension (high blood pressure).

Fascinating thread in which I have nothing much to add but a question.

Isn't Sam Harris an advocate of these types of drugs? It seems to me that I have read somewhere that he thinks every adult should have one of these "mind expanding" experiences at least once in their life.

I found that interesting because on the surface he seems a bit buttoned down and doesn't strike me as that kind of guy. As I recall he advocates their use for more of an expansive viewpoint, and also to understand that these "supernatural" experience can be replicated with external manipulation.

Along similar lines, what do some of you think about the God Helmet and if or how it relates to this topic?

Fascinating thread in which I have nothing much to add but a question.

Isn't Sam Harris an advocate of these types of drugs? It seems to me that I have read somewhere that he thinks every adult should have one of these "mind expanding" experiences at least once in their life.

I found that interesting because on the surface he seems a bit buttoned down and doesn't strike me as that kind of guy. As I recall he advocates their use for more of an expansive viewpoint, and also to understand that these "supernatural" experience can be replicated with external manipulation.

Along similar lines, what do some of you think about the God Helmet and if or how it relates to this topic?

Turns out the the developer of the so-called God Helmet, Prof. Michael Persinger, and I used to be colleagues. We both worked in the area of bioelectromagnetics and published in the same journals. While I know him, I have never actually had a chance to try out the God Helmet.

However, I have had a chance to see the data and talk with him about it. One consistent effect of the the type of magnetic stimulation that can be provided by the God Helmet is the induced perception or feeling of another unseen presence. Some who have the experience describe this as feeling the presence of another sentient entity, or even like the presence of Jesus or God (if they happen to be religiously inclined).

Neuronal pathways or circuits in the brain operate on a combination of chemical and electrical signals. Thus their function of can be affected (stimulated or suppressed) by the effects of chemicals and electromagnetic energy. Biologically active small molecules can bind to their specific receptors found in certain regions of the brain to stimulate or suppress the function of that circuit or center in the brain. Specific pulse patterns of electromagnetic fields oriented so as to stimulate certain parts of the brain can do the same. Pain signals can be suppressed, for example. Other perceptions or emotions can be stimulated, as well.

There are a number of electromagnetic devices that stimulate the brain directly and are effective in management of pain or depression, for example. These normally work by direct injection of small electrical currents through electrodes placed on the skull or (in rare cases) surgically implanted in specific areas of the brain.

The God Helmet uses electromagnetic coils specifically designed to stimulate certain areas of the brain with various types of signals that can be selected by the helmet controller. No direct electrical contact with the skull or brain is required here.

Through trial and error, Prof. Persinger and his students and colleagues have determined which combinations of signals can induce a variety of perceptions in the wearer. (This is not to imply that this works in every case or works the same with everyone who tries the helmet.)

As I recall (and I will look this up again when I get the chance) scientists now have a good idea which brain areas need to be stimulated to induce the strong perception of 'another presence', as well as a perception that different people have described as a 'oneness' (perfect empathy, perhaps?) or a feeling of 'concilliance' or 'unity of knowledge'.

The point is that these circuits are probably present in all humans but do not get stimulated very often and so these perceptions seem unique and leave a strong impression.

As was mentioned upthread, there is evidence that meditation or repetitive action religious rituals can also result in these perceptions and feelings.

So, we have evidence that these specific circuits or centers in the brain can be stimulated by magnetic fields, chemicals produced within the body, and by chemicals produced by other living things (including by humans in laboratories) and taken into the body.

No mythical God required.

__________________________________________

Pulsed magnetic stimulation can affect neurons (nerve cells) in the brain, remotely as it were, because the changing magnetic field induces small local electrical currents. The magnitude of these currents is proportional to the strength of the magnetic field and more specifically to the rate at which the magnetic field is changing. The characteristics of the currents also depend on the dielectric properties of the medium in which the field are being induced. The brain, and specifically the nerve cells themselves make a pretty good medium for induced currents.

I love talking and hearing about stuff like this. I was a very spiritual person when I grew up in the church. When I lost the faith my spirituality was lost as well. I found it again after ingesting a hefty dose of "magic" psilocybin mushrooms. It was hands down the most spiritual experience of my life. The word "Nirvana" definitely comes to mind. My beliefs are now much more Eastern in thought.
The active compound in the mushrooms is called psilocybin, which is metabolized by the body into psilocin, or 4-Ho-DMT. It is only a single oxygen atom away from the DMT as described in said documentary.
It makes complete sense that Joseph was using natural plant entheogens to induce these spiritual experiences that seemed to be so common in the early days of the church.

Fascinating thread in which I have nothing much to add but a question.

Isn't Sam Harris an advocate of these types of drugs? It seems to me that I have read somewhere that he thinks every adult should have one of these "mind expanding" experiences at least once in their life.

I found that interesting because on the surface he seems a bit buttoned down and doesn't strike me as that kind of guy. As I recall he advocates their use for more of an expansive viewpoint, and also to understand that these "supernatural" experience can be replicated with external manipulation.

Along similar lines, what do some of you think about the God Helmet and if or how it relates to this topic?

Turns out the the developer of the so-called God Helmet, Prof. Michael Persinger, and I used to be colleagues. We both worked in the area of bioelectromagnetics and published in the same journals. While I know him, I have never actually had a chance to try out the God Helmet.

However, I have had a chance to see the data and talk with him about it. One consistent effect of the the type of magnetic stimulation that can be provided by the God Helmet is the induced perception or feeling of another unseen presence. Some who have the experience describe this as feeling the presence of another sentient entity, or even like the presence of Jesus or God (if they happen to be religiously inclined).

Neuronal pathways or circuits in the brain operate on a combination of chemical and electrical signals. Thus their function of can be affected (stimulated or suppressed) by the effects of chemicals and electromagnetic energy. Biologically active small molecules can bind to their specific receptors found in certain regions of the brain to stimulate or suppress the function of that circuit or center in the brain. Specific pulse patterns of electromagnetic fields oriented so as to stimulate certain parts of the brain can do the same. Pain signals can be suppressed, for example. Other perceptions or emotions can be stimulated, as well.

There are a number of electromagnetic devices that stimulate the brain directly and are effective in management of pain or depression, for example. These normally work by direct injection of small electrical currents through electrodes placed on the skull or (in rare cases) surgically implanted in specific areas of the brain.

The God Helmet uses electromagnetic coils specifically designed to stimulate certain areas of the brain with various types of signals that can be selected by the helmet controller. No direct electrical contact with the skull or brain is required here.

Through trial and error, Prof. Persinger and his students and colleagues have determined which combinations of signals can induce a variety of perceptions in the wearer. (This is not to imply that this works in every case or works the same with everyone who tries the helmet.)

As I recall (and I will look this up again when I get the chance) scientists now have a good idea which brain areas need to be stimulated to induce the strong perception of 'another presence', as well as a perception that different people have described as a 'oneness' (perfect empathy, perhaps?) or a feeling of 'concilliance' or 'unity of knowledge'.

The point is that these circuits are probably present in all humans but do not get stimulated very often and so these perceptions seem unique and leave a strong impression.

As was mentioned upthread, there is evidence that meditation or repetitive action religious rituals can also result in these perceptions and feelings.

So, we have evidence that these specific circuits or centers in the brain can be stimulated by magnetic fields, chemicals produced within the body, and by chemicals produced by other living things (including by humans in laboratories) and taken into the body.

No mythical God required.

__________________________________________

Pulsed magnetic stimulation can affect neurons (nerve cells) in the brain, remotely as it were, because the changing magnetic field induces small local electrical currents. The magnitude of these currents is proportional to the strength of the magnetic field and more specifically to the rate at which the magnetic field is changing. The characteristics of the currents also depend on the dielectric properties of the medium in which the field are being induced. The brain, and specifically the nerve cells themselves make a pretty good medium for induced currents.

Thank you for your insight DrW. I find the brain and the field of neuroscience quite facinating, and have begun to realize the brain is capable of much more than we know. I find meditation in particular an interesting subject, and have been following various scientific studies that compare long term meditators with their non-meditating peers. These studies are in their infancy, and much more rigorous and thorough observations need to be made, but the results thus far have indicated one can change the very plasticity of the brain with intense mental training (hence my comment above).

I personally believe many of the religious experiences people claim to have are in fact due to nothing more than chemicals in the brain. I'm aware of the God Helmet, and find the experiment incredibly interesting. Human beings are very emotionally motivated, and that is good in the sense that it has helped us become the most successful species on the planet. Emotion has driven the creation of empires, but it's also destroyed them. Constantly being in search of that next emotional high has caused us to become dependent on drugs, alcohol, drama, and yes religion.

Btw, I would love to try the God Helmet on, it sounds like it would be a trip, lol!

-Joseph smith's church logically and scientifically is full of rational holes.. major ones.

-the bible and the judgment make no sense. (rationally)

-the god I once thought I knew has been disproven a million different ways

-my judgment is sometimes off

-I can depend on science cause gravity has never failed me.

BUT

It's a bit horrifying to know how little we know.

That one experience not only puts you in the seat of many different angles at once but it shows you how they are connected and how elementary it all is in your normal daily experience or human perspective.

So I think it is kind of like an awakening. No other experience compares. You start to realize that you've spent your life learning the alphabet (A, then comes B, and after that is C.. You've been worrying about it. Some people who are famous or smarter/ with gifted minds may be much further than you; they may get up to X, or Y or z. you go around telling everyone what your learning and there's nothing wrong with that.. But then for one night for one brief period .. your brain shows you not only words for how those letters can fit together, but sentences for how those words fit together and then how books can be created with those sentences forming mass languages, novels and encyclopedias. Good luck communicating it. Holy shit! Like fitting an ocean thorugh a straw in a second. And you realize your brain will not come back to that understanding in its every day state, you will only remember being there.. so to speak. Like a glimpse.

I definitely experienced the oneness too. it was very easy to see from other peoples perspectives almost at once. My brain did it so rapidly that I almost went into a vibratory oneness. In fact I think I did. There was no judgment. It was like pure intelligence. It was like pure knowledge. To me in that moment that equaled intelligence.. multiple perspectives. Somehow it collectively meant unity or a type of force or power or movement.

It makes me very skeptic about this human experience. It goes so much farther than this. Even if just in the mind. It goes so very much farther. So much so that some people would not be ready to view it. It would be too overwhelming. There is a truth to that matrix red pill, blue pill analogy and when you are ready to take what and when lol.

Certain naturalists also speak of an ego death.. the part of your mind that protects you in this life convincing you know more than you do or are literally better than others etc..

(Forgive me post mo's!!! I know how this sounds.. ha ha. I do not try to sound spacy or eastern mysticism like here, and i think post mos need to stick to the basics. I'm not underminding this. Science and basic logic skills is key after mormonsim. I am not expert, just a post mo. but this was just my experience..:) Kind of fun to talk about.. ;)

No need to apologize, I think it's cool that you shared your experience with us. The reason "awakening" came to mind when you were describing your experience was probably because I just got done reading Alan Watts "The Way of Zen." I've read quite a bit about Buddhism, and although I don't necessarily believe in the supernatural aspect of it, I do find it an interesting life philosophy which has helped me view the world in a more emotionally healthy way.

When you were speaking about this, I couldn't help but think of a lecture Watts gave about meditation, and how there have been people who have experienced precisely this, and almost went crazy thinking they could read minds because they felt so connected to everyone and everything (or maybe they were just crazy, lol). I'm not sure about reading minds, but I do personally think there might be a higher collective conscious that connects us all, and maybe they, like you, were able to tap into that for awhile. Or, maybe, like I mentioned in my post above, it's all just chemicals in the brain that make us think we feel something (like the warm fuzzies we used to get in sacrament meeting). I'm an atheist myself, and tend to be very analytical and skeptical, but I think it's fun to entertain the idea that there might just be more to this world than what we see at first glance, so I try to keep an open mind (but not so open my brains fall out, ).