To A Young One Who Is An Apologist For A Terrorist (UPDATED)

how come you all seem to be picking on tookie. about his impending execution when no one that has posted anything on this page was not in the court room when his trial took place you didn't here the evidence. so dont comment about it. As for his impending execution I hope Gov. Arnold gives him clemency because even if tookie did those murders. I believe and so do thousands around the world believe that stanley "tookie" williams has done more good then bad. It is possible that he commited those murders and killed four people. But he has saved thousands check that millions from making those same mistakes that he made and probable has saved many lives in the process. Oh and another thing people talking about killing tookie because he may be a murderer. How about we kill the actual murderers like charles manson and stop protecting him behind laws. Oh yeah he's white.

from a 19 year old white william and mary student

To quote Commander Riker of Star Trek: The Next Generation—time for the long pants.

Frankly, Jeremy, unlike you, I acknowledge that you are free to comment all you want from your dorm room or the library at William and Mary--as is your right---about anything and everything. But frankly, sir, I find your academically and experientially unlearned opinion wanting and, conversely, I am free to tell you why I think so.

(As an aside, were I one of the faculty at William and Mary, I’d give you an ‘F’ simply for staining that august institution’s reputation by displaying your poor writing skills; it wouldn’t matter what subject it was. Were I one of your parents, I’d demand a refund for your tuition. However, I’m glad that you are only nineteen because you will have time to improve all of the writing-skill deficiencies displayed above.)

As to your research skills, two seconds of Google work took me to the Crime Library, where I found out that Charles Manson had indeed received the death penalty for his infamous Helter Skelter gang murder spree, but the verdict—along with dozens of others—was commuted to life in prison when California abolished the death penalty in 1972. I wonder whether you think that the white residents of California’s death row of the time were the only ones to receive that little get-out-of-Hell-free (for now) card. (The California Death Penalty was reinstated in 1977; however, all of those who received clemency under the old law retained it, including Charles Manson.)

(Second-person off.)

Of course Jeremy knew nothing about that little historical tidbit because he didn’t care to look for it. To be fair, I actually remember when this happened—long before young Jeremy was born.

Other types of skill deficiencies displayed by this young man are more problematic--his ability to detect BS, for one. The idea that Stanley “Tookie” Williams might not be guilty has been planted all over the Internet and Jeremy--along with a boatload of others, if my comments section is any indication—have been reeled in to this bogus notion; hooked in the corner of their mouths like hapless fish. So, in order for their position to make some semblance of sense, the fish have to insert their fish-like logic into the mix: ‘you weren’t there; you don’t know what *really* happened, so shut up,’ forgetting that they weren’t there either and are merely going by the news and propaganda reports from "geniuses" like Bianca Jagger just like the rest of us.

Attention: just because the rumor is being passed all over the Internet that “Tookie” might be innocent doesn’t mean that it’s TRUE.

Okay, Little Fishies, let’s play a game. Let’s say that “Tookie” is indeed innocent of the four murders for which he stands to be executed at 12:01 AM PST on Tuesday, December 13, 2005. As the founder of the Crips, one of the most notorious TERRORIST organizations in the world, do you think he murdered anyone other than Albert Owens, Yen-I Yang, Tsai-Shai Yang and Yee-Chen Lin Yang during his reign over the neighborhoods of South Central Los Angeles in the seventies (I’m not buying the ‘South Los Angeles’ moniker) ?

And all you black, white and other “upholders” of the black race—like Jeremy proclaims to be in my comment section—if you concede that “Tookie” might have murdered others, do you think that any of those other people were black? As an aside, did any of you grow up in “Tookie’s” South Central Los Angeles of the 1970s like Cobb and I did? Do any of you live there like I do right now?

I’m curious about the answers to these questions for two reasons.

Leaving aside those who oppose the death penalty for moral/religious reasons, few of you have seemed motivated to move into my South Central LA neighborhood to see what “Tookie” and his Crip co-founder Raymond Lee Washington (who’s burning in Hell right now) have wrought for the last thirty-odd years. And I know that you won’t be choosing to live here anytime soon. That’s understandable; however, don’t tell me that we should coddle these TERRORISTS like “Tookie” and those he created if you don’t have to put up with them. (Okay, you can tell me, but you can expect a barely polite response and that’s if I’m feeling generous.)

Secondly—and this is especially for people like Jeremy: black people are thinking, functioning humans who, when adult and without some actual mental deficiency that they can’t control, are just as responsible for their actions as are members of any other race of people. We’re not murderers by nature (that is, any more than any other set of humans are). Therefore, we don’t need a separate, lower standard of behavior in any area, whether it’s education, employment or criminal justice.

When black people do well, they deserve recognition; when they do wrong, they deserve the consequences—no more or no less than any other. Certainly, there are instances in which black people are victims of racism. However, every instance in which a black person finds himself in a predicament where he will suffer the consequences for his actions does not stem from racism. In this century, I’d even say that most bad outcomes for black people don’t come from that social ill. Sometimes those outcomes are a product of the black person’s own sinful nature; sometimes it’s a product of that most insidious of sins: pride. Don’t forget that we all—black, white and all others—can fall victim to pride.

I submit that “Tookie” is very proud of his legacy. He just doesn’t want to die for it and--for the next few hours--is doing everything he can think of to keep from dying for it, with the help of those who are prone to believing the lies of psychopaths: the gullible, the ignorant and the stupid.

(Second-person back on.)

Jeremy, we—black people--are not children who need to be succored by you and your ilk, youngun, and we don’t need to be protected from men like your daddy (who’s likely paying a fortune for your demonstrably p*ss-poor education) or from our grown-up, functioning adult decisions, especially those decisions which land us on death row. We also don't need for anyone to listen to our sociopaths.

The affirmative action mindset seems to have extended to expectations of behavior for black people. Therefore, when impressionable minds like yours, young Jeremy, have the certain elements enter their conscious—prisoner, murder, death row—there is always that mandatory element—racism--that puts a black man there. It’s never the actions of that particular man that are the problem; at least not to a mind that is as brainwashed as yours seems to be.

Know that you’ve been deceived by a particular type of rhetoric; that type in which no black person is responsible for his/her actions, that type in which the white man is always the culprit. In its insidious and ingenious way, it’s the rhetoric of black inferiority.

You, Jeremy, believe that this heinous mass murderer—born Stanley Williams—isn’t as responsible as any white man who committed the same type of acts. Therefore, it’s the worst thing that you could do to come here and condescend to me as if you’re the go-to expert on all things Tookie, Crip and South Central or—most especially—race and California law.

In your way, you’re as racist as any white supremacist. They also believe that black people aren't as sentient as whites and others. However—to your credit—I believe that your racism is only an accident, a product of who-knows-what kind of half-explained propaganda. You’re trying to do good; your idea of good is simply warped.

Read, live, learn and—most of all—think before you comment and act on the things of life. After that, there will be fewer chances of you being slapped down like the ignorant child that you apparently are right now.

You may think that I’m being rather hard on you, Jeremy, but there are young men your age that are at this very moment experiencing tougher things than being slapped down by women who are the age of their mothers. That’s not a slam on you for not being in the military (it’s a choice), however the duty of all good citizens is to use the weapons with which God has inclined us to pick up. Sometimes those weapons are physical; in other instances, the weapons are cerebral. Which ever weapon that God has endowed you with, don’t waste your ammo as you did here. Live, learn---and then tell.

UPDATE: Darmon Thornton has also had much experience with "Tookie's" South Central LA. Read and understand how "Tookies" terrorists are the bane of upstanding black people; no less so than any Klansman.

UPDATE: Thanks to all and sundry who have linked to this post. With my new job, I often have little time to post, so I pay more attention to the things that I *do* post. I put a lot of time and thought into this one (a couple of days). Though I didn't spell everything out as I probably should have, this one is from the heart. I didn't mean to hurt Jeremy or those like him; I simply meant to impart to him and others the facts of the type of life about which he probably knows nothing. People like Jeremy only know about the propaganda which they are fed at places like William and Mary. Some may deem my words to be propaganda also; however, the Jeremys of the world need to understand that there are (at least) two sides to every situation. They need to know about the side that experienced the actions of the "Tookies" of this world.

88 Comments

There isn't a logical or grammatical fallacy he omits in his screed...but one thing particularly strikes me. He says, "I believe and so do thousands around the world believe that stanley 'tookie' williams has done more good then bad. It is possible that he commited those murders and killed four people. But he has saved thousands check that millions from making those same mistakes that he made and probable has saved many lives in the process."

Millions have been saved from the same mistakes? Does he have his own cable show? A web site I've never seen? What mistakes were those, by the way? Little errors of ommission, say a failure to pay all his taxes?

Yes, millions have been dissuaded from setting up criminal organizations. As in, "I'm considering a few different business propositions...maybe a computer store, maybe a Bed Bath And Beyond...but definitely not a murderous gang. No, the shining example of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams has kept me and millions of others from walking down that path. Thank you, Stanley 'Tookie" Williams. You've made the world a better place."

All the commentary I've seen avoids the obvious. Under rules of law, enacted by a democratic government, Williams has been convicted and sentenced to death. There are a lot of folks that rail against the death penalty and occasionally someone like Williams rises up and becomes a lightning rod for them. If the democratic institutions of this nation enact death penalties, and juries impose that penalty then under what auspice can street mobs reverse or undercut those institutions?

The clemency option is there to right egregious failures of the system. Is this one of those? How so? Why does it matter whether Williams has "grown" in jail? Does his "growth" change the fact that he has heinously murdered four innocent people? Does his "growth" in any way alter the facts under which he was convicted or sentenced? Shall we devise a test administered to all death row inmates to see if they have "grown?"

Shall we give points to death row inmates for liberal achievements, kind of like scout badges, by which they can earn reprieve from a legally imposed criminal sentence? Let's see a point for each touchy-feely book; a couple of points for a Nobel nomination... We can deduct points for the murder of protected conclaves, such as homosexuals; because we all know that the murder of homosexuals is more heinous than the murder of, say, some money grubbing capitalists trying to make a living running a motel.

Sadly, there are probably some death row inmates deserving of clemency that perish in the shadows of the fireworks of such media/liberal circus' as we now see. The fact that the Left rallies around monsters like Williams and Mumia Abu-Jamal says a good deal about the Left and their disdain for civil, innocent, lawful society.

It's not just "Tookie's" Crips alone and in a vacuum, there's the Bloods too - those two inspire and feed off each other, two groups of terrorists waging battle among the population, creating havoc. As public civility breaks down in the landscape he helped to create, more groups emerge to fight over turf, drugs, and criminal acts. As more gangs enter the fray his voice that now rejects a past that he helped to grow and flourish, is a smaller one against those more voices, more acts of violence and more complacency that "this is the way it is" - more obstacles yet promote his erstwhile "career" in the landscape he tilled and tended.

Definition: to have Juliette smack your brain about with reality so hard that you sustain an eternal stinging sensation between your ears that magnifies exponentially every time you start to talk stupid again.

Ouch!!!

Obviously Jeremy hasn't read this blog long enough or is just to thick to notice the "danger - minefield!!!" signs.

I don't think many people have actually bought enough of his books for millions to be deterred by gang violence. His books sell in the 100's (hardly on the NYT bestseller list) His death will be a bigger deterrence to the gang life than him spending the rest of his life in prison (and on the taxpayers dime too)

Well, Mike Farrell and the rest of the Hollywood fan club don't normally claim he's innocent, but rather that he's rehabilitated. If he were rehabilitated, would he not have cooperated with law enforcement by helping them to clean up the gang he started?

And can a man be rehabilitated if he has never been habilitated to begin with?

1) Tookie was convicted by the State of California of these murders. These convictions and the death sentence has been upheld by the California courts.
2) These convictions and death sentence have been upheld by the Federal Courts, by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. (The 9th Circuit has a well earned reputation of opposition to the death penalty.
3) The US Supreme Court has upheld the death sentence.

Based on the above, I am convinced that Tookie did commit these murders.

Tookie also co-founded the Crips, a terrorist organization which has killed many, many innocent people.

"...we—black people--...don't need for anyone to listen to our sociopaths."

What I've suspected happens in the African-American community, is that white liberals interfere by lending clout to the most troublesome and irresponsible factions, and overbalance the non-sociopath, orderly, productive influence. That would p**s me off, if I lived there. Social pressure is important for a community, and if outsiders give an escape valve to make the worst cocky, the natural social dynamics are weakened.

Tookie Williams has had 25 years of life since he killed those 4 people - He's been in prison, but nevertheless he's had a bed to sleep in each night, three square meals each day, the opportunity to be with family and friends, and the chance to write and do other things. That's 25 years his four victims didn't have to do anything at all.

Poor young Jeremy. This is probably more critical thinking than he's been exposed to during his entire college career. We can hope that some of it actually soaks in.

And, just because I'm obsessive, I'll note that it's counterproductive to call the Crips terrorists. I've taken both anti-gang and counter-terrorist training, and violence is not terrorism unless it has a political goal. Gang activity is incredibly destructive, but it is usually motivated by personal goals. Calling it terrorism simply cheapens the term by broadening it to include any extreme violence.

If you by your actions terrify someone, then you are by definition a terrorist. If the Crips and the Bloods by their actions do not terrify you should you be their subject, then you are brain-dead. Thus endeth the lesson.

I read many blogs regularly (yours is among them), but rarely am I compelled to comment... not so much that the fine prose I encounter in the blogosphere doesn't invoke a reaction on my part, but that I rarely have anything to say that many others haven't said before me.

This time I don't care. I need to echo the others before me. While this post was directed to a specific commenter (Jeremy) on specific topic (Tookie), it could very well serve as The Official Statement on Race for many of us right of... uh, The Left.

Ah ...although I totally agree with you I have to point out its not just liberal whites that lend credence to sociopaths of all
colors [they get brownie parts when theyre black I think] , Perhaps there looking for votes ?
NO???? Why do they assume the black community is stupid ?????
Why does jessie jackson a black liberal think the black community
is so stupid Why did Kerry a white liberal professional lier phoney vote manipulator wantabbee
Think by going to black churches the majority wouldn see through his big fat fasade [his face]...
This black and white deal is fading fast but not fast enough
and ,In my opinion, You can blame liberals for that

All power comes from the barrel of a gun.
Whether that gun is in the hands of a Crip or a US soldier in Iraq.
I think 30,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion.
Not all legally.
There is no point to the death sentence. Reading the comments to this blog makes me weep for the human race.
Surely your god will judge us all in the end, and he won't mind waiting a few years.

I just followed a link from Michelle Malkin to your site and WOW.... this post is one of the best I've ever read...ever...anywhere. I'm going to save it to my favorites. I just felt compelled to say thank you for taking the time to offer Jeremy and all your readers such a well-thought and well-spoken message.

And I think Ivan Pope is in some alternate plane or universe--like he wandered into a room mumbling to himself and swatting at imaginary gnats flying around his head. Democratic Underground is through another door buddy.

And to Skinner (above), if you're the same Skinner from DU... well, then FU for comparing soldiers to members of a street gang. (are you still scamming those poor DUmmies out of their hard-earned dollars?)

You weep for the human race? The human race thanks you for your magnanimous graciousness... Dumbass.

A poster on Free Republic.com posted a link to your excellent commentary.

It doesn't matter if Tookie was a ghetto thug, a politician, or an engineer with Northrop Grumman. Sociopaths have no soul, and will do what they will to gain what they want.

Mr. Williams did not repent, nor did he give any sort of apology to the survivors of the people he killed....for a grand total of 200 bucks.

The Governor was correct to reject Mr. Williams plea for clemency. For the sake of his soul, Mr. Williams should have made a public admission of guilt. The Lord forgives even the most heinous, and would have given Tookie the most important kind of clemency.

I am bookmarking your site. Btw, I moved back down to Torrance to take care of my ill mom back in '01. Thank the Lord, I'm out of there. I enrolled with El Camino College, and don't think that William and Mary have cornered the market on bad grammar.

I took a college level English course, and we did "peer editing". Mind you that I was old enough to be their mamma. The writing was awful, but I didn't want to hurt their feelings. I didn't know how to approach a total stranger that was maybe 18-20 yrs old, and correct them : (

The major part of the problem is the culture of deception that the left lives in: this is color blind in its deception, but the deception is there. It's insidious and devestating because it is so pointless. Tookie and his kind live and lived that culture of deception, void of all morals and controls.

It's been there a long time, but it's starting to be a real problem...

(Shameless plug: you can see more on this culture of deception on my blog under:

Looks like Jeremy's argument vis-a-vis "doing more good than bad" and "[saving] thousands check that millions from making those same mistakes that he made and probable has saved many lives in the process" is a total crock http://tinyurl.com/dbbse. It seems that Mr. Tookie couldn't even manage to sell 333 books total (he wrote two), so how could he have saved "millions" from making those same mistakes again? Heh

Tookie was a punk! LOL he forgot the line if you cant do the time dont do the crime! My wife who is from the Philippines was asking about all this nonesense and couldnt fathom why someone would want to remain locked up for the rest of their days or just be put to sleep I had to tell her that OUR prisons are nothing like the Dungeons of the Philippines and guys like Tookie enjoy it in there and since he slaughtered 4 people for less than a $1000 he deserves a life of luxury! If I had my way they would just chunk his worthless butt in the dumpster the few people left in my old home state shouldnt have to pay for a coffin for this jerk!

First and foremost, that was the most eloquent, well-structured and (dare I say this) articulate ripping of a new a**hole I've ever witnessed.

In the light of the fact that young Jeremy can vote, is there any doubt as to why this nation is rolling towards hell in the proverbial handcart?

On a more serious note, to those who don't consider the activities of street gangs "terroristic" activities: I spent years in an organization that, while generally a respectable group, did contain some "bad eggs." We had to fight tooth-and-nail to avoid being classified as a "terror organization" having already been classified as a "criminal gang" (to get specific enough to make my point, I was in a motorcycle club that was organizationally tied to one of the "big three"). While I disagree with needlessly categorizing generally law-abiding organizations as terroristic in nature based upon the actions of "three or more" of its members, that is the standard declared by law under the R.I.C.O. act. That act's provisions were incorporated into the Patriot act as tools to identify terrorist cells.

In a nutshell, both in ideology (waging war against law, order, and civility) and in law (far exceeding the minimum legal standards of qualification as such), the Crips, Bloods, and other street gangs are rightly referred to as "Terrorists."

Thanks again for all you do, B. This post is another example of why you've become a daily read for me.

I don't think many people have actually bought enough of his books for millions to be deterred by gang violence. His books sell in the 100's (hardly on the NYT bestseller list)

Have you ever READ "Tookie's Books"? The ones nominated for the Nobel Prize for literature?

All in "Ebonics (TM)", i.e. slave patois, with all the verbal skills of the proverbial "monkeys banging on typewriters to reproduce Shakespeare". The morning drive-time crew on KFI (who had themselves officially nominated for Nobel Peace prizes to show how easy/trivial that was) had a dramatic reading of them last week.

This post is indeed a thing if beauty! When La Shawn posted that she wished she could tell people off half as well, I was skeptical, but then I read the post. Facts and direct life experience laid out in a truly eloquent manner. You have outdone yourself, and in the process taught some of your readers like Jeremy some valuable lessons. I just hope he actually absorbed a fraction of what you had to say.

The death penalty isn't about retribution, it's about taking out the trash.

The only reason to regret Tookie's execution is that lethal injection is a much more merciful method of termination than his direct victims received, or did the thousands of victims of the gang violence he spawned and never cooperated with the police to help end. Any idiot can write a children's book (Homestarrunner ref), but if he really wanted to help, he would have told law enforcement everything he knew.

It would have been preferable to execute Tookie in an electric chair powered by clean, renewable solar and windpower, but I'll take it.

Speaking of "young Jeremy," I kept expecting you to say "young Skywalker." Heh.

Perhaps not inappropriate. Most Concerned & Compassionate Activists (TM) are fantasy-role-playing gamers but won't admit to it. As an old gamer, I can even tell you the ruleset they're playing -- a live RPG version of Star Wars: The Role Playing Game (West End D6 or current WOTC D20 system, take your pick).

In this live RPG, they not only get to play Luke Skywalker, they ARE Luke Skywalker, leading the Good Guy (TM) Rebel Alliance against the Evil Empire (TM) of The Man. (Since it's all a game and the Evil Empire (a la Hitler, Stalin, or Saddam and his sons) don't really exist here in the US, they are never in any REAL danger.) And they take it a LOT farther into Mazes & Monsters-land (living in their fantasy game) than any of the REAL role-playing gamers I've known.

P.S. In Graz, Austria (the Governator's old home town), the local Green Party is calling for their Arnold Schwarzenegger soccer stadium to be renamed as a protest against the death penalty. (I think that part's legit, but I'm also pretty sure the part about renaming it the "Tooky Villaims" stadium was KFI's little joke.)

Finally. In his ignomious death, Tookie has done more to deter "yutes" from a life of crime than any of his other so-called good deeds.

As for Tookies "reform":

Heck, I bet if someone offered to feed, clothe and shelter me for the rest of my life, (or at least until my appeals ran out) I, too, could have the luxury of writing a tepid tome of terminal triteness. I could have days and days on end to lobby my congressman, annoy the local papers, stir up sympathy and win a Nobel Nomination from some twitterpated liberal-elitist. How easy is that sort of reform? Bah.

Many folks who've turned their lives around and had real impact on themselves and their community have done so with less resources, less support or encouragement, and more true repentance for prior deeds. And worked two jobs while doing it. They'll have a better death in this world and a better life in the next.

Likely the SD's definition stems from its governmental purpose and not from the dictionary. The real concept of 'terrorism' is, however, far more broad than that.

There is no doubt that residents of gang-infested neighborhoods all across the country have felt coerced and afraid due to the purpose and actions of gangs like the Crips and the Bloods; as the victims of Al Qaeda do. The aim matters not. All of the above live for 'terror' and attempt to get others to submit to their will via violence. (See my links to Darmon Thornton and David Anderson in updates to the main post.)

I don't want to say your definition is entirely illegetimate. I just use mine because it prevents gratuitious abuse of the word 'terrorism.' Liberals have a bad habit of taking a word with pejorative connotations and applying it to everything they don't like- such as 'racism.'

I guess our difference ultimately is a question of metaphors. You see Tookie as Yassir Arafat. I see him as Al Capone. Though, come to think of it, more than a few criminal organizations started as geurilla groups. And many terror groups branch out into crime.

Baldi (or is it Ms Locks?), perhaps I'm splitting hairs here (pun intended) but I must point out yet another factual misstep in our young liberal friend Jeremy's passionate but misguided defense of Stanley Williams:

Charles Manson never killed anybody and is not an "actual murderer" as Jeremy states.

Now that I have your attention, a simple review of the facts surrounding the Tate/Labianca murders reveals that while the Manson family inarguably commited those gruesome murders, Charles Manson never laid a hand on any of the victims and was not even present during the murders. He was correctly convicted of murder because he inspired and ordered the murders to occur. And yes he was sentenced to death and his sentence was later commuted. A minor point perhaps but a factual error none the less.

And as a followup to my last post I have to applaud and recognize Baldilocks' stance on the murderous Crips and Bloods. As a police officer and a former gang investigator I have had the displeasure of witnessing gang violence firsthand and had a hand in the investigations of several gang related homicides. The dirty little secret of the Crips and Bloods is that the vast majority of their victims are young black men such as themselves. Something along the lines of twenty thousand dead black men in the last quarter century.These two gangs are a terrible scourge on the black community across the country and are vastly more responsible for holding young black men back than any percieved or actual racism. The lure of easy money, power, and women are too much for far too many disillusioned young black men who are consistently told by society that they are victims and are not responsible for their actions. Instead of faux outrage by the Hollywood liberals and professional race baiters, how about addressing what's really killing the black community? Or is that too much to ask?

Before I get excoriated by my 20,000 death toll I figured I'd fire off a preemptive shot. I believe I read that figure on Michelle Malkin's site but I can't find it. However here's some support:
From a 9/26/04 article in the LA Daily News...
A recent report by State Attorney General Bill Lockyer said that in the past 20 years, 75 percent of all gang murders in the state occurred within Los Angeles County.

The death toll: 10,000.

That's more American deaths than were caused by the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the bombing of the USS Cole and two American embassies, the conflict in Yugoslavia, the Oklahoma City federal building bombing, Operation Desert Storm and the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.
That's the death toll in one county over the last 20 years. I take back my initial estimate. Surely deaths from gang violence elsewhere in the country exceeds 10K over the last 20 years so the toll is likely far higher than 20K.
Anybody still want to defend Stanley Williams and what he has wrought on inner city America?

To son of a dog beater No Im not that skinner but why didnt you cuss him out on D U whatever that is You D S Thats dip shit Youre the scound ignoramous Ive had to tell to lighten up today FULL MOON ALMOST Check youre bed for HORSE MUFFINS TONIGHT

That was what Manson was convicted of--conspiracy in Tate and LaBianca. But there were a dozen other murders that no one was ever charged with that were connected to "The Family," including Manson's uncle. Also there were the Willet murders, which Family members were convicted of. And the murder of Ronald Hughes, Manson Family defense attorney, who disappeared eight days after the defense rested and whose body was not found for months. And Gary Hinman, of course.

(The California Death Penalty was reinstated in1977; however all of those who received clemency under the old law retained it, including Charles Manson.)

Perhaps Jeremy will respond by pointing out that all the blacks on death row prior to 1972 were executed after all, while the whites were spared, after the Supreme Court ruled that the ex post facto clause of Article I, Section 9 does not apply to black people. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Seriously, though, I wouldn't worry too much about clueless little Jeremy. He's only 19, the age at little kids who know next to nothing somehow manage to convince themselves they know everything, or at least everything except a few minor, unnecessary details. The only reason you won't find equally silly gibberish from me on the 'net is because the blogosphere didn't exist when I was 19.

In addition, Manson was the driver for the LaBianca murders, and tied up the victims before instructing his followers to kill them. He then went out to wait in the car. That's as "accomplice" as you can get without actually weilding the knife.

Jawolf,
I was pointing out that Jeremy stated that we should be executing 'actual murderers' such as Manson, when Manson did not actually commit the Manson Family murders. In other words, blood is once removed in his case. The law correctly extends culpability for crimes to those who assist, order, or otherwise conspire with the actors to commit the original crime. That's how Manson was convicted. I did not mean to imply that Manson was in any way not a murderer or was not deserving of the death penalty. He is an incredibly evil man and the fact that he is still breathing is a travesty of justice. As it relates to this argument, though, Williams was an evil man as well and equally deserving of the death penalty. My point ultimately was that Williams personally executed four people, in cold blood, after his original crime (robbery) had already been completed. His sole purpose was to eliminate witnesses. That, folks, is pure evil.
Tully, you are obviously better versed on Manson than I am as I have only studied the Tate case and touched on Labianca. I defer to you for details on other crimes they may have been involved in.
If I can pose a question to Jeremy directly, assuming he is monitoring this board, who do you think has had a greater impact on society, Williams or Manson? And based on that answer, do you still feel that Manson is more deserving of the death penalty than Williams?

why did he have to be from William and Mary??? My son is a junior there. He has learned to avoid political discussions because when one's interlocutor screams "Bushitler" the spittle gets all over his shirt...

I'm trying to figure out how someone with Jeremy's lack of skills got into W&M. Maybe he's a math genius who never learned to spell? Or construct sentences? Or think straight?

Meanwhile to show you that not all
W&M undergraduates are illiterate, I looked up my son's take (at the time) on the results of the 2004 election -- his first opportunity to cast a vote in a presidential election. This is from his blog:
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Tuesday November 16, 2004

"Wow. What bravado. What false hope. Face it, Libbies--you failed. You set out to unseat Bushitler. You set out to "re-eject" Dubya, to end the 43rd Reich. And all of George Soros' bucks, all of Michael Moore's propaganda films, all of Al Franken's "Lying Lies," all of the mainstream news media's attempts to paint our president as a lying coward FAILED. You not only lost the election--you lost the American people.

Some of you like to take the election results and say "That means I'm smarter than 51% of the country." Fine. Have it your way. But just remember--it isn't always the billions of dollars and the hate-filled rhetoric that gets you what you want. Sometimes you have to recognize what the American people really want. And what the American people want right now is the right not to be murdered in their homes, at their workplaces, by some Islamic fanatic with access to a plane and a bunch of explosives. And in my opinion, they placed their bet on the Right Man.

Note to my liberal friends: this is NOT an attack on you. This is an unprovoked rant that I felt the need to express. I love you all dearly regardless of whom you voted for. :-P ..."
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*That* is how a fourth-generation William and Mary man writes. And he's a chem major but he can still write coherent sentences. Hell, he can -- and does -- write sonnets for fun.

Jeremy better get a clue bag and some remedial help. I'll even drive over there with some workbooks. That is pitiful. Somebody clip that mess and send it to Dean Sadler and tell him to find the kid ASAP.

Bosco, it was five minutes research, my teenage memory of the trials (old phart), and my memory of Bugliosi's and Sanders' books. Bless the 'net. Manson got life sentences in the Hinman and Shea murders, his death sentences were for ordering the Tate murders and participating in LaBianca as knot-tying director/driver. Even if he were completely pardoned for the Tate & LaBianca cases, he'd still be in prison on two life sentences for murders where he actually spilled blood himself. He's in jail for NINE murders--Sharon Tate's unborn near-term child didn't count--and there's little doubt he was complicit in an at least as many more. Heck, did Hitler ever actually kill anyone personally? Yet his guilt was certain.

I hope I'm emphasizing your point, not taking away from it. Anyone who thinks Williams was worthy of clemency in any way should read his prison record, and his escape plans, which called for killing three guards and an indeterminate number of fellow prisoners (with dynamite!) as cover-up. They should ponder what he ordered while running the Crips, both before and after he went to prison. The list of Tookie's victims is a LOT longer than four. No confession, no redemption. No atonement, no absolution. No mitigation, NO MERCY.