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Stop the WHINING.. PLEASE!! & READ

This is getting ridiculous. The New York Knicks, after having a completely ineffective, dis-gusting season in 2005-2006, came back to have a mroe than decent showing, a showing which could have lead them to the finals if injuries didn't step in. But knicks refuse to see the good in that, instead they choose to **** on the team and the players who assisted the Knicks in even getting as close as they did to entering the playoffs. These So called Knick Fans need a little history lesson, and I guess I have to give it.

The New York Knicks made it to the championship game in 1999. That Knicks team, ran under my favorite Knicks coach (Jeff Van Gundy) was not coached well. Jeff even admitted to that in later years. That Knicks team, healthy, could have possibly beaten the Spurs. But Larry Johnson, as good as a defender as he was, could not guard Tim Duncan and Camby couldn't guard Robinson.Ewing would have made a difference. With that said, the next year could have saw the Knicks build on that title run and fix up the faults that clearly stopped the knicks from winning a championship. That off season, the Knicks hired Scott Layden as their GM. Instead of building a team that could have continued to compete for a title, Layden does nothing, makes no off season transaction just stands pat and sees the Knicks lose Pacers in the Eastern Conf. Finals. That off season Layden decides this is the time to get into GM mode, so he trades the expiring contract of Patrick Ewing, for Glen Rice, Luc Longley, Travis Knight, Vernon Maxwell, Lazaro Borrell, Vladimir Stepania and a couple of picks. The first two guys having long hefty contracts. To add to the problem, a year later Howard Eisley is brought in along with Shanndon Anderson, Clarence Weatherspoon, Othella Harrington, etc... Mind you two years prior the Knicks were in the Finals against the Spurs. The only thing stopping the Knicks from beating them was a healthy front court. The year following what would have been Patricks final year as a Knick, Chris Webber was available. Chris Webber prior to the knee injury, chris webber whose good friend Latrell Sprewell was campaigning for him to come to the knicks, the chris webber who wanted to get out of sacramento... The knicks were unable to sign him because of the excess money they had in the cap from the Ewing Trade and the Houston signing. This is all done under the watch of Scott Layden. The Knicks turn into a **** organization, they begin to lose bad. 2002, the Gods however are watching down on the Knicks... The Knicks are in the Lottery, they have the the number 7 pick in a CROWDED field of can't miss prospects. The knicks had at the time a Healthy Allen Houston, Latrell Sprewell (both averaging 20 points), Marcus Camby( 11 rebounds and 2 blocks pg) and Kurt Thomas(great defense and 10 rebounds pg). THis is what some people in the sports call a nucleous to build around. Scott Layden wasn't some people. No he was not.. Instead of picking up talents Nene, Caron Butler, or Amare Stoudemaire, he decides to trade the pick AND Camby and Mark Jackson, for Antonio McDyese and what turned out to be Frank Williams. Scott Layden didn't believe that a starting of 5 of Latrell Sprewell, Allan Houston, Mark Jackson, Marcus Camby and Nene or Amarie with Kurt Thomas coming off the bench would be something good for the knicks to have.

Anyhow, that is a brief history of what was happening before Isiah Thomas came to the Knicks. I agree that Thomas has made bad moves, Jeffries for one, and releasing Maurice Taylor and Jalen Rose when they could have used their expiring contracts in a trade during the trade deadline are the only ones I can honestly say were detremental to the team. Even the Jerome James signing, the knicks had no center @ the time and he was addressing a need, tryin to stop the bleeding.

Unlike the Layden years, the Knicks have a GM who understands what the team needs in order to possibly win a championship, not just get to the playoffs. He is adding players based on need and is focusing on getting the right group together in order to win a championship. People can attempt to **** on him all they want but the truth of the matter is, Isiah has made the knicks not only watchable again, but in a year or two on the cusp of challenging in the Finals. Scott Layden had a Finals team in his hands, all he had to do was make a wise move here or there, the knicks would have been back in the drivers seat challenging for a title, but that wasn't meant to be. He was content on keeping the team as is, and then adding talent that wasn't going to take the team over the top just keep them challenging for the playoffs..maybe.. The moves that Isiah has made has proven that he cares that the knicks haven't won a championship in over 30 years. He is not content with just making the playoffs.

Listen I am a Knicks fan from the days of Rory Sparrow, Louis Orr, Benard King and those guys. So I remember that spring afternoon and the Nba on NBC when Bob Costas and Pat Riley were doing the in studio analysis of some game, and Pat Riley saying, "You could win a championship with Patrick Ewing." And though he wasn't able to get that championship, he tried with the focus being, running that offense through Patrick Ewing. If patrick had a talented consistant scorer like Marbury on his team, Pat Riley's words would have came true. Isiah is here now all these years later, making basically the same claim. No Eddy Curry is not Patrick Ewing, but Stephon Marbury isn't Charlie Ward or Derek Harper either, the knicks have players who equal or surpass any player that was matched up with Ewing during those years they challenged for a championship, with the difference being a lack of defensive intensity. But as Van Gundy would always say, Defense can be taught.

I digress, back to my point, the knicks have assemebled a core (nucleous) of talent whch are gelling together.(and they may possibly, maybe have a chance of getting the best player in the NBA) If you fans can not see what Isiah is doing, there is really nothing I can say to you. I can only lead the horse to water.

!) Was the trade of Starks for Sprewell, and Oakley for Camby, a good trade while signing Kurt Thomas that offseason?

2) Was G.M. Ernie Grunfield wrong for punching Coach JVG in public for not giving Camby, Spree, and K-Thomas playingtime? Was it worth him getting FIRED?

3) The Knicks searched for players to surround around Patrick Ewinghis entire career with the Knicks.
For the benetfit of getting Patrick Ewing a Championship Ring the Knicks got players like PG-Chris Childs, SG-Houston, SF-Sprewell, PF-Camby, PF-Johnson, PF-K-Thomas, C-Herb Williams.
So when PatricK Ewing Forced the Knicks Franchise into trading him that offseason after the Knicks went to the 1999 FINALS, that showed me that Ewing and Coach JVG messed this Knick team up just as much as DumLaydumb.

Isiah Thomas biggest talent is his eye for young talent. That's it.
G.M. Laydumb left Isiah Thomas 3/4 of a Knick roster that had ending contracts within the next 3 years (Laydumb roster took Isiah to his only Knick Playoffs). What did Isiah do with all those ending contract players within 3 years? and what did he get back in return? I will give you a hint:
for Keith Van Horn he got Jalen Rose (buyout),
for Doleac he got Malik Rose,
For Mcdyess & Ward he got Marbury and Francis.

To be one of the best G.M. at picking first round draft picks it is amazing that Isiah Thomas actually gave up 4 years of first round draft picks to get Marbury & Curry (2007, 2006, 2004, and Sweetney the 2003).

Isiah Thomas Coaching performance this past season was the Pits.
He still dont have a Knick Starting-5 Unit other than Marbury & Curry who did not show much promise on complimenting each others talent in the last two seasons on either side of the court.

Somehow Isiah Thomas coaching decisions made the THREE Knick Players that should've Started all 82 games with Curry & Marbury catch season injuries at the start of the second half of the season (Crawford, Q.Rich, and David Lee)...

!) Was the trade of Starks for Sprewell, and Oakley for Camby, a good trade while signing Kurt Thomas that offseason?

2) Was G.M. Ernie Grunfield wrong for punching Coach JVG in public for not giving Camby, Spree, and K-Thomas playingtime? Was it worth him getting FIRED?

3) The Knicks searched for players to surround around Patrick Ewinghis entire career with the Knicks.
For the benetfit of getting Patrick Ewing a Championship Ring the Knicks got players like PG-Chris Childs, SG-Houston, SF-Sprewell, PF-Camby, PF-Johnson, PF-K-Thomas, C-Herb Williams.
So when PatricK Ewing Forced the Knicks Franchise into trading him that offseason after the Knicks went to the 1999 FINALS, that showed me that Ewing and Coach JVG messed this Knick team up just as much as DumLaydumb.

Isiah Thomas biggest talent is his eye for young talent. That's it.
G.M. Laydumb left Isiah Thomas 3/4 of a Knick roster that had ending contracts within the next 3 years (Laydumb roster took Isiah to his only Knick Playoffs). What did Isiah do with all those ending contract players within 3 years? and what did he get back in return? I will give you a hint:
for Keith Van Horn he got Jalen Rose (buyout),
for Doleac he got Malik Rose,
For Mcdyess & Ward he got Marbury and Francis.

To be one of the best G.M. at picking first round draft picks it is amazing that Isiah Thomas actually gave up 4 years of first round draft picks to get Marbury & Curry (2007, 2006, 2004, and Sweetney the 2003).

Isiah Thomas Coaching performance this past season was the Pits.
He still dont have a Knick Starting-5 Unit other than Marbury & Curry who did not show much promise on complimenting each others talent in the last two seasons on either side of the court.

Somehow Isiah Thomas coaching decisions made the THREE Knick Players that should've Started all 82 games with Curry & Marbury catch season injuries at the start of the second half of the season (Crawford, Q.Rich, and David Lee)...

In regards to your first question, those trades in my opinion were real good trades, unpopular at the time, but trades that needed to be made in order help the knicks advance... Those trades were made by Ernie Grunfeld

Number 2, He was not wrong, and as I eluded to, Jeff Van Gundy stated that was one of his biggest mistakes as Coach, and I do not believe he ever limited Sprewells play at all.

Number 3 I dont see the point you are trying to make here. Lets say Ewing indeed forced the knicks into trading him(which i do not buy), does that justify getting players that added more to the cap, made it impossible to get a player like Chris Webber, and added players who basically werent that good anymore.

Number 4 - In actuality, for Van Horn he got Tim Thomas - which turned into Curry
For Doleac I believe he got Nazr Mohamad, who inturn gave us Malik Rose and David Lee and Mardy Collins
And Stephon Marbury... So pieces were added through those contracts. Even though Isiah was initially blinded when he first arrived by that bull**** logic of a GM can't rebuild in NYC.

As far as giving away picks, he had 2 picks for every 1 he gave up. Yes the ones the past two years were lottery and should have been protected, but I dont see anyone who was picked being better than Curry.

As far as Thomas as a coach, maybe he's not the greatest X n O coach out there, but he did motivate his players to play harder than they did last season. And with all of his faults, the Knicks were in line to make the playoffs this year before the injuries. And speaking of injuries, how exactly are you blaming Isiah Thomas for that? C'mon, you are reaching at straws my friend

lilman bklyn I just want to thank you for writing this post. I constantly have to make that exact argument to people all the time who dis isiah. I just want to add when isiah inherited one of the worst situations (no talent & way over cap) imaginable. He was told by dolan he had to find a way to get younger more talented without the ability to sign free agents, which i think he has done a great job of. Also what a lot of people forget is soon after isiah took over, their best player allan houston got hurt. there is no question that the knicks would have been a playoff team each year if houston would not have been injured. I am excited about this team.

The New York Knicks, after having a completely ineffective, dis-gusting season in 2005-2006, came back to have a mroe than decent showing, a showing which could have lead them to the finals if injuries didn't step in.

33 wins is a 'mroe' than decent showing???

9 games under 500, the largest payroll by a large margin...

what is your description of the mav's season, or the pistons, of the cav's???

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Originally Posted by paris401

33 wins is a 'mroe' than decent showing???

9 games under 500, the largest payroll by a large margin...

what is your description of the mav's season, or the pistons, of the cav's???

Exactly. You don't need to reply much to the threadstarter. They're obviously bias for Isiah and don't have much care about the Knicks. 33 wins more than "decent" lmao. Why will these guys wake up and realize we're still at the bottom of the league? Other teams are improving too as we improve also. Comparing our season to last year is totally irrevelant.

Bottom line, Isiah apologist and Knick fans will never see eye to eye, let it be at that.

Exactly. You don't need to reply much to the threadstarter. They're obviously bias for Isiah and don't have much care about the Knicks. 33 wins more than "decent" lmao. Why will these guys wake up and realize we're still at the bottom of the league? Other teams are improving too as we improve also. Comparing our season to last year is totally irrevelant.

Bottom line, Isiah apologist and Knick fans will never see eye to eye, let it be at that.

It's not a Bias for Isiah, its understanding the game of basketball. YOU are the one with the bias and not being able to see things objectively. I am able to admit faults as well as the good in what is occuring with the knicks. You are unable to do that. Other teams are improving, good for them. Glad you can follow other teams and give pertinant information about them. How bout you continue doing that, because your comments on the knicks are for the most part without merit.

Originally Posted by paris401

33 wins is a 'mroe' than decent showing???

9 games under 500, the largest payroll by a large margin...

what is your description of the mav's season, or the pistons, of the cav's???

decent, not good, not great, not excellent just more than decent.. adequate... C'mon people get it together... I see the glass as half full. I see a team that showed it can overcome adversity. I see a team with young talent that is only getting better.

Reading some of the posts up here is like watching Fox news. They are full of bias, disinformation and spin. The spin I don't have a problem with on this site because every one is entitled to their one opinion but it would be nice to on occasion see an opinion based on all the facts. Can we finally but this Thomas debate to rest?

Here it is. My attempt, perhaps futile but an attempt none the less, to end this debate once and for all..............

Exactly. You don't need to reply much to the threadstarter. They're obviously bias for Isiah and don't have much care about the Knicks. 33 wins more than "decent" lmao. Why will these guys wake up and realize we're still at the bottom of the league? Other teams are improving too as we improve also. Comparing our season to last year is totally irrevelant.

Bottom line, Isiah apologist and Knick fans will never see eye to eye, let it be at that.

look Fam I know my name would sugest that I'm in favor of every ITmove, let me make this clear that is not the case, I know as well as any other Knick fan that IT has made some big mistakes as a GM.....with that said I think overall he's has always tried to make the Knicks a better team, he understands that being complacent in NY is a sin. My problem w/ you is that anything positve that can be said of the Knicks you find a way to flip negatively, From Curry's progress, to the teams progress, and even Isiah's ability to draft, look give the man credit where credit is due this team was irrelevant when he took the job, Antonio Mcdyess was our savior! He made Newyork a relevant team again, the man Drafted David Lee w/ the last pick in the first round, he got Ariza w/ 43. He got Marbury for nothing, got Crawford for nothing, traded Nazr for what would amount to D. Lee, Malik Rose and Collins. Moves I can't defend James, Vin Baker, and Francis ( I think Jefferies needs another season before judging). But at the end of the day you can't deny that this team is not better than the one he inherited, and that is the job of a GM ! Look bottom line this team will continue to improve and your going to have to eat all your words ace, so jump on the banwagon before it is too late!

I think this organization is a lot better off with him as GM, if you look at what he had when he came in and what it is now

We did not make the playoffs this year but that was mainly due to a lot of injuries, and luckily for us we got to see what some of our young guys are made of like Balkman and Collins.

He helped bring this team back to some respectability and gave NY a team to finally believe in, and fans showed this coming to more games this season. We lost a lot of close games and I feel that was due to a lack of chemistry because of injuries, and suspensions, along with a pretty tough schedule to start the season.

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Right...now Isiah is "Basketball".

If you don't see me admitting the good on this team(Like how I constantly brag about Marbury's defense, Balkman's, Collin's and Lee's potential) then you need to improve your reading skills.

Isiah's Advocate 33, we're distant from the playoffs. We're still irrevelant and a joke to most of the NBA. It pisses me off when people use Knicks as a joke or a punchline.

For some reason, Isiah fans don't really care about the image of the Knicks. All they talk about is Isiah's track record and worry how long he's going to be here. 9 times out of 10, they make it seem like he's a great GM. Isiah apologist criticize Isiah as much I as criticize Miguel Cotto...LOL.

Keep up, the NBA is a competitive league. The NBA isn't revolving around Isiah. If we win 40 games next season, thats an accomplishment to Isiah, and his fanboys. It took us 3-4 years to become a 7th and 8th seed. I hate SLOW progression and a GM who tries to cover his mistakes with silly transactions. Thats just me, I don't want to see a GM **** on my team like that, I'm not down for that ****. I'm a Knick fan, I bleed orange and blue. I'm not feeling a GM like Thomas or an owner like Dolan who doesn't give the organization the best opportunity to be competitive. Instead they let other franchises take that opportunity like Phoneix, Chicago and Orlando.

Originally Posted by kej718

I think this organization is a lot better off with him as GM, if you look at what he had when he came in and what it is now

We did not make the playoffs this year but that was mainly due to a lot of injuries, and luckily for us we got to see what some of our young guys are made of like Balkman and Collins.

He helped bring this team back to some respectability and gave NY a team to finally believe in, and fans showed this coming to more games this season. We lost a lot of close games and I feel that was due to a lack of chemistry because of injuries, and suspensions, along with a pretty tough schedule to start the season.

Really? Okay, I'll look at what we had.

Less talent.
Veterans.
More wins.
More expiring contracts, be under the cap inl 2005 or 2006 (Houston contract)
More draft picks.
****ty GM
****ty Owner

What we have?
More talent
Young to Mid-age players.
Less wins
Less expiring contracts, expire till 2009
Less draft picks.
****ty GM
****ty Owner

Suspensions, Injuries, and a Tough scheduele is all apart of the NBA. The Knicks scheduele wouldn't be so tough if they had a competitive team. Isiah has failed every year to make us competitive in the East. Instead, if he gives a borderline playoff team that falls short every in the playoffs. Haven't you get it by now? Its the same story at the end of each season. Isiah and his boys hype it up for the playoffs, then a week later, we fall 3-5 games out of the 8th seed. Don't you get tired of that? As a Knick fan I do.

I love watching the Knicks, win or lose. Even with god damn Eisley at PG and Weatherspoon as our low post threat, something a lot of you Isiah apologist don't remember. Like I said, Isiah apologist and Knick fans will never see eye to eye. Let go of Isiah and focus more on the future and where the Knicks stand in the NBA, not in Isiah hands. I guess you can call me impatient.

does anyone remember how bad layden was and how bad we wanted him out? isiah inherited a mess from him so some of the moves are hard to blame him for. sure james didnt pan out but at the time we had no center because we traded kurt and it was before curry so yeah he overpaid but we needed a center. jeffries was a defenseive stopper in washington and for some reason he lost his game when he came to ny. you cant totally blame isiah for these things and hes shown his great eye for talent. i still dont think he should be coaching and the picks we lost for curry stung but all in all id give him a c or a b- as gm so far.

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Originally Posted by pyotrveliky

does anyone remember how bad layden was and how bad we wanted him out? isiah inherited a mess from him so some of the moves are hard to blame him for. sure james didnt pan out but at the time we had no center because we traded kurt and it was before curry so yeah he overpaid but we needed a center. jeffries was a defenseive stopper in washington and for some reason he lost his game when he came to ny. you cant totally blame isiah for these things and hes shown his great eye for talent. i still dont think he should be coaching and the picks we lost for curry stung but all in all id give him a c or a b- as gm so far.

Isiah having a good eye for talent makes him a good scout, not GM.

Isiah is a terrible GM, doesn't matter who you compare him too. Don't let Isiah lower your standards as a fan.

What ive always loved is that, after the 99 finals, we were clearly on the way down with houston's 100mil contract and bad knees. But clearly to most of you, thats Isiah's fault too. Trading away Nene' and Camby was Isiah too.
As a matter of fact, Portland drafting Sam Bowie and not Jordon was Isiah's fault too.
There are clearly knick fans here who critize Isiah, but yet still have the COMMON SENSE to know there was not one man on this earth that could have turned this franchise around without taking 3-4 years. Layden, Ernie's moves; all Isiah's fault!
Ive noticed over the past 10 years with knick fans theyve turned like yankee fans, if u dont win a championship, fire everyone. I love my knicks but we werent the celtics or the lakers back in the day. We havent won in 3 decades, and we want to kill isiah as if he destroyed a championship caliber team? If you dont like dolan or thomas, then go be Nets fans.
Regardless of whether most of you pessimests might admit, Isiah as of right now has done more good for the org than bad.
And its also pathetic how some of you "fans" are so easily persuaded by the media that bashes every coach,manager, gm in every single franchise in ny, except omar minaya and willie randolph. The NY media are a bunch of tools who have athelete and executive ENVY. The wish they would be able to make decisions, or actually play sports but dont.