Features » December 12, 2005

Your Guess Is as Good as Mine

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Most of you, if not all of you, like me, feel inadequately educated. That is an ordinary feeling for a member of our species. One of the most brilliant human beings of all times, George Bernard Shaw said on his 75th birthday or so that at last he knew enough to become a mediocre office boy. He died in 1950, by the way, when I was 28. He is the one who said, “Youth is wasted on the young.” I turned 83 a couple weeks ago, and I must say I agree.

Shaw, if he were alive today, would envy us the solid information that we have or can get about the nature of the universe, about time and space and matter, about our own bodies and brains, about the resources and vulnerabilities of our planet, about how all sorts of human beings actually talk and feel and live.

This is the information revolution. We have taken it very badly so far. Information seems to be getting in the way all the time. Human beings have had to guess about almost everything for the past million years or so. Our most enthralling and sometimes terrifying guessers are the leading characters in our history books. I will name two of them: Aristotle and Hitler. One good guesser and one bad one.

The masses of humanity, having no solid information to tell them otherwise, have had little choice but to believe this guesser or that one. Russians who didn’t think much of the guesses of Ivan the Terrible, for example, were likely to have their hats nailed to their heads.

We must acknowledge, though, that persuasive guessers–even Ivan the Terrible, now a hero in Russia–have given us courage to endure extraordinary ordeals that we had no way of understanding. Crop failures, wars, plagues, eruptions of volcanoes, babies being born dead–the guessers gave us the illusion that bad luck and good luck were understandable and could somehow be dealt with intelligently and effectively.

Without that illusion, we would all have surrendered long ago. But in fact, the guessers knew no more than the common people and sometimes less. The important thing was that they gave us the illusion that we’re in control of our destinies.

Persuasive guessing has been at the core of leadership for so long–for all of human experience so far–that it is wholly unsurprising that most of the leaders of this planet, in spite of all the information that is suddenly ours, want the guessing to go on, because now it is their turn to guess and be listened to.

Some of the loudest, most proudly ignorant guessing in the world is going on in Washington today. Our leaders are sick of all the solid information that has been dumped on humanity by research and scholarship and investigative reporting.

They think that the whole country is sick of it, and they want standards, and it isn’t the gold standard. They want to put us back on the snake-oil standard.

Loaded pistols are good for people unless they’re in prisons or lunatic asylums.

That’s correct.

Millions spent on public health are inflationary.

That’s correct.

Billions spent on weapons will bring inflation down.

That’s correct.

Industrial wastes, and especially those that are radioactive, hardly ever hurt anybody, so everybody should shut up about them.

That’s correct.

Industries should be allowed to do whatever they want to do: Bribe, wreck the environment just a little, fix prices, screw dumb customers, put a stop to competition and raid the Treasury in case they go broke.

That’s correct.

That’s free enterprise.

And that’s correct.

The poor have done something very wrong or they wouldn’t be poor, so their children should pay the consequences.

That’s correct.

The United States of America cannot be expected to look after its people.

That’s correct.

The free market will do that.

That’s correct.

The free market is an automatic system of justice.

That’s correct.

And so on.

If you actually are an educated, thinking person, you will not be welcome in Washington, D.C. I know a couple of bright seventh graders who would not be welcomed in Washington, D.C.

Do you remember those doctors a few years back who got together and announced that it was a simple, clear medical fact that we could not survive even a moderate attack by hydrogen bombs? They were not welcome in Washington, D.C.

Even if we fired the first salvo of hydrogen weapons and the enemy never fired back, the poisons released would probably kill the whole planet by and by.

What is the response in Washington? They guess otherwise. What good is an education? The boisterous guessers are still in charge–the haters of information. And the guessers are almost all highly educated people. Think of that. They have had to throw away their educations, even Harvard or Yale educations, to become guessers. If they didn’t do that, there is no way their uninhibited guessing could go on and on and on.

Please, don’t you do that. But let me warn you, if you make use of the vast fund of knowledge now available to educated persons, you are going to be lonesome as hell. The guessers outnumber you–and now I have to guess–about ten to one.

This essay was adapted from Senior Editor Kurt Vonnegut’s new bestseller, A Man Without a Country, which can be ordered at www.sevenstories.com or calling 1-800-596-7437.

Kurt Vonnegut, the legendary author, WWII veteran, humanist, artist and smoker, was an In These Times senior editor until his death in April 2007. His classic works include Slaughterhouse-Five, Breakfast of Champions and Cat's Cradle, among many others. The last book by him published before his death, A Man Without a Country (2005), collects many of the articles he wrote for this magazine.

Hey, let's get this in front of more people. Accurate and sadly true description of the know-nothing attitude in DC and state capitols.

Posted by David Richards on 2012-10-23 19:28:08

What would he say about our current leaders now?

Posted by Kris Brown on 2012-08-12 19:51:41

What would Kurt have made of the summer of '09, with all its teabaggers, birthers, deathers & townhall meetings?
Even he would've been floored by all the ignorance, and lying....Posted by Bix12 on 2009-11-02 05:59:54

Know what you mean about "the place", Rab'. But, believe it or not, the VietNam national firewall blocks blogspot.com, same with geocities and maybe orkut and still yahoo groups. I've got my own blogger space, but can only manage it, can't look at it (except via ssh to overseas box, which takes most of the fun out of it).
Anyway i can probably pop by your ears in a text browser... Lessee...
andi-itt said...
Hey Rabbit, i can post via text browser. Howdy do! ;)
8:56 PM, January 11, 2006
yup. cool... mo' later. the mrs and a flick are waitin' upstairs.Posted by AD Marshall on 2006-01-11 04:58:05

Rabbit looked at place, Andi, Rabbit registered at the place, but it wouldn't let Rabbit say anything anyway. It is complicated and has lots of gates, rabbits like simple things like the blogger site, whiuch is eminently simple but practical. Also it blocks blockquotes, a worthy goal, and it never messes up lines, and you can delete your own posts.
The rabbit's ears are a link.
........................... ^^.......................................Posted by Rabbit on 2006-01-11 02:45:38

Rabbit has afield where any may gather and poke about anytime, and though there are threads they are informal. Some of those you mention know and if you want anyone may give directions. So can I for that matter, but it isn't handed out gratuitously like some sort of personal medallion like some trolls I know do.
Also since it is Rabbit's it is Troll proof.Posted by Rabbit on 2006-01-11 00:06:08

Hey folks, Rabbi', wiley, minerva, CanaDavid, Populista(?) (who'd i miss?),
Say is there somewhere else online where we can hook up and rant or whatever?
I'd really like to have such a place with you folks in back-up for days like today when i feel like ranting on about something that's got no relevance to any disco going down on ITT.
Call me a prude, but i feel uncomfortable using ITT's extended discos for personal shite.
Would this work, as lame as it may seem? ::
My[New]Space: http://www.myspace.com/01sighgone
Andi's Blurbs - About me: [diddly]; Who I'd like to meet: [squat]; Andi's Friend Space: Andi has 0 friends. [Sad, ain't it, eh?.]
Well, at least there's a pic and a bit of personal info there. You folks are welcome to pop by and share some abuse. ;)Posted by AD Marshall on 2006-01-10 23:02:28

The first flood, the second or Noahs one? Rabbit too a few times, and that sounds about right.Posted by Rabbit on 2006-01-10 20:23:41

How old is Rabbitique? I was born before the flood...
In rabbit years you're probably three years old. My guess. Give or take a century.Posted by wileywitch on 2006-01-10 11:31:57

Romans ....Mammon...took control of the Christian movement and subverted it to the purposes of Man's Kingdom. There is only one potential candidate for the role of true representative of the church established by the white God in opposition to Paganism, the religion of the earth. That is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. All the rest are reactionary if not the original usurper of Rome.
BTW, the original usurper of the Church of the White God, is due for anhilation. I suspect the current Pope, is number LAST!
Christian.....flamin apes...grumble..mumble rabbity growl...silly numbskulls.
They just love that virgin Mother messiah crap, ever since Zarathustra and the Zorros, they are suckers for this one.
Guess how old the rabbit is?Posted by Rabbit on 2006-01-10 02:24:33

Whoa. I just found a lot of posts in my junkmail. Howdat happ'n? I was hoping to see confirmation of the receipt of an electronic form I spent three hours figuring and filling out to day. No dice. Must do again. Oh well--transcribing will take much less time. Tra la la. Can't complain.
I started typing before I read you post, Minerva. I have no idea what "respect issue is here", so it couldn't have been too important. Even if it was, I almost always forget about little offences I find. I get mad. I spout. That's it.
Sorry, if you feel like I've been picking on you. Don't mean too really, but do you think you could lay off of the "lol's" a little? You probably don't intend it, but I think you're undermining yourself. You've clearly demonstrated that you can get substantial.
Don't worry about my bite from time to time. Feel free to bite back. Pay your nickel, take your chances, etc.
Uhhh, your guess is as good as mine? There going to be another romp with Vonnegut soon? I think his picture should be on the twenty dollar bill, instead of whatever useless president is on it---Jefferson. Franklin's good. Mark Twain, Einstein, Harriet Tubman...
Hey Rabbitsky! Too lazy to pull out the King James. Isn't that perverse (come to think about it)? Isn't it blasphemy that the name of a king is on a version of the bible?! Mammon. Ptooey.Posted by wileywitch on 2006-01-09 20:19:39

What is the quote about time and chance happening to all?
Rabbit thinks of a Time for everything, under the heavens.
A time to reap and a time to sow
A time cats away stones and a time to gsather stones together... etc
That's Ecclesiastes too I think I recall, was it this you meant?
If so, it is one of Rabbit's favorites in the old testament.Posted by Rabbit on 2006-01-08 03:33:56

Minerva
Rabbit just happened by this thread again, and something you mention also on the right 911 thread.
"..when youPosted by Rabbit on 2006-01-08 03:30:57

Wiley, I'm sorry if I came off as disrespectful...I was only trying to emphasize that "time and chance happen to all"
( I only wish I could claim that quote...Ecclesiastes has the patent on those words, and Kurt Vonnegut brought that idea to the 20th century through the body of his work)
In the mean time..."beam me up, Scottie"
lolPosted by minerva on 2006-01-07 20:38:19

Happy New Year to you, tooPosted by minerva on 2006-01-07 19:34:53

Rabbit is a fan, Minny.
Not getting into this, ..wise Rabbit.
Happy New Year...dear.
..........^^............Posted by Rabbit on 2006-01-06 00:11:27

So, Minerva, how long does it take to travel 50 miles?
Think about it.Posted by wileywitch on 2006-01-02 14:18:14

disgusting too. cool...Posted by AD Marshall on 2006-01-02 03:40:15

that was great :DPosted by AD Marshall on 2006-01-02 03:39:23

You've inspired me AD...
This year, Minerva Jones has medicated over 200 schizophrenic and bipolar patients, tried to be cheerful during working hours at a great personal cost, and generally performed all sorts of nursing duties, from wiping asses, to injecting asses, to just dealing with an administrative body composed of asses.
You know, I thought bragging would be more fun than thatPosted by minerva on 2006-01-02 02:22:58

Cheer(io)s!
;-)Posted by AD Marshall on 2006-01-02 02:00:47

Cheers...
come on by for some chronic ice tea, or even a beer, sometime.
minervaPosted by minerva on 2006-01-02 01:44:05

Sorry AD...I only have your own strange, linkified, and obscure words to offer as a defense for my own stupid, simplified, and kindly intended posts
Do you want to see them again?
Here goes:
AD20051231Sat20h11m20ICT
So iPosted by minerva on 2006-01-02 01:42:04

Wiley..when you're flying at 500 miles per hour...it takes an hour to travel five hundred miles.
Think about itPosted by minerva on 2006-01-02 00:50:18

AD20051231Sat20h11m20ICT
So i'm end my AD.2005 harvest of saved Web "refs" (references) and "raps" (reports, analyses, presentations) with "The Hand of Time -- For Kurt Vonnegut, the Past Is Ever Present and the Future, Well...", By Bob Thompson, Washington Post Staff Writer, Wednesday, October 12, 2005; C01, NEW YORK, the best bio and update i've seen so far for Baba Kurt Vonnegut, Junior.
And a Slap-Happy New Year of Slackness to all you "here and now, boys" (and girls) in AD.2006, Year of the Dog [ouch] -- and all the rest as well.
AD20051231Sat20h46m38ICT
AD20051231Sat20h28m49ICT
PS: This year, MAD (Marshall, Andrew D) saved over 2,800 RAP pages and over 5,340 web-page references over AD.2005.01-12. Virtually all pages were saved "as complete web pages" via the Mozilla/Firefox web browser -- over 22 web-pages saved per day. And, i swear, i'm never gonna do that again.
AD20051231Sat20h38m09ICT
AD20051231Sat20h43m59ICT
Oops, 2nd last: the link to the "Aldous Huxley: Island" page was the very, very LAST page saved -- i hope... Cheers Y'All!!!
AD20051231Sat20h46m49ICTPosted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-31 05:51:41

Believe what you want.
I will not entertain excuses.
It amazes me that so many people refuse to hold people with grave responsibilities to their contracts. The U.S. has become a a society of incredibly childish people projecting their unreliability and lack of integrity all around.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-31 01:12:58

"I worked in SAC/NORAD, and in a tactical radar unit in Germany with NATO forces, and for me, the most preposterous thing about 9/11 is that figuring out how in GodPosted by minerva on 2005-12-30 19:38:30

;)Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-23 20:01:09

Ahhh. The the wine drinkers. The the pea soup eaters.
I learned about them in Michael Moore's documentary, Canadian Bacon.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-23 19:49:15

But where do the editors and staff of ITT fit in? It seems almost like they're out of the loop.Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-22 12:17:28

Gad! There's a whole pre-existing culture here i had no clue about.
I'm over to the God Squad thread to study up.
Thanks GR.Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-22 12:15:08

Rabbit;
Think of this thread as nothing more than an emotional outlet. An opportunity to joke and vent and kvetch. Nothing too serious. Mildly therapeutic.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-22 11:55:39

Or don't ...........this thread is the stupidest and suckiest ever seen at ITT by I.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-22 11:05:31

One thing about 911 which seems to be misunderstood. The Junta have not really covered up the truth about 911. In fact it was a pretty sloppy job and the holes are easy to find. Don't we get the picture yet? they are doing it for our benefit and you can't see the fact that the coverups, the lies are never so profound that they are not fairly easily unravelled. there are furthermore people in the military and other government people who have come forward. What world are some of you living in? The very act of witholding so much evidence is guaranteed to create suspician.
They obviously don't care. They know that only those of us who are awake, not under the spell will get it, the rest are plugged into the machine. Enough of Mr and Mrs Jones are swallowing all the crap that the MSM pumps out at them. George Orwell had nothing on these guys. Orwell foresaw the Television part but I wonder if even he could have predicted the all pervasive media control. I guess it was there too.
This sort of thing is typical of the Illuminati mindset.
The point is that there is not only solid evidence, video evidence, witnesses and Scientific Evidence, more like Scientific Proof.....that the official 911 Conspiracy Theory is the biggest load of codswallop.
If you are still walking around in a daze saying "where is the proof?" then you should just give up now. Go and dig a hole and lie down in it, and wait for the nightfall. You are not really alive. If you cannot look at the simple facts which are known, the things which are certain, and there is plenty and relate these to what you think happened on 911 you are not even in the race.
It can take quite a lot to prove a theory. it only takes one fact to disprove one. There are dozens of rock solid facts which disprove just about every point about the official story.
Anyone wants to argue, just ask Rabbit. ...^^.....Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-22 08:35:25

Rabbit, i'll only plead:
01. I tried to explain the relevance of the "9/11 Truth Movement" just 3 posts above your last post;
02. In what i think is the 33rd post of this page (2), i proffered an interpretation of Vonnegut's YGIAGAM in light of other articles by KV at ITT. But not a single post followed in response to that post. Majortity rules?
03. Just two posts above your last post i noted a new article just appeared on ITT about the "9/11 Truth Movement" and i have since been over there in a vociferous debate against the author and ITT with the initiative and aid one other reader.
I'll put no more about 9/11 here. PLEASE come and join us there. (I'm really, really tired of the personal attacks, in any direction, here.)Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-22 08:32:01

AD Marshall
There is so much more which requires reading of yours, but please note the inconsistency of saying it should be brought back on thread and then promptly starting up the 911 debate. That has been raging for seven or eight hundred posts on another thread which was hijacked by Rabbit as it was going to waste, and a Government shill moved it ointo another trhead for another few hundred posts.
Rabbit's only point is that you just wnet off topic in your next posts. Pot meets Kettle?Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-22 07:36:16

Goodwin, you don't suck for writing that. Rabbit is quite ambivelant about what either you or Rocco thinks.
You seem quite enamoured of your own opinion and are no more justified in your pompousness than a number of other twits we know. Until Rabbit sees anything from you which would indicate you are anything but a moron, and a tap dancer he is unlikely to take your criticism as anything more than an endorsement.
Don't worry about my chosen method of communicationm sunshine, Rabbit will speak in whatever way he sees fit. In fact he deliberately throws in a few I's and Me's, words which are so important to some morons, and you are obviously, by your own admision such an one.
One of the more useful results of speaking thusly is that it is inordinately irritating to dickheads. Arrogant, self important wankers and basically anyone who has an ego problem. It is true, Rabbit and others have watched it before, here and elsewhere. The only people who take exception to Rabbit as you do, are egotistical empty heads.
Those who care more about wanking around with form than concerning themselves with substance. Projection of ones own fallibilities is easily recognised, especially by the person who is wrongly accused, as is the rabbit in this case.
You can sort out your ego problems, and you speak only for less than highly thought of entities on this thread anyway, in whatever way you choose. You can forget Rabbit jumping to your constipated tune.
If anyone who matters, is feeling they are about to pay some hideous Physic price due to the form and feature of rabbit, please do let him know about it.
Going down the thread, have been busy. By the way, if you dropkicks were not spending so much time trying to dictate to others about how they should talk and what they should say, maybe we might have managed a few more attempts at something on topic. It is a little hard to stick to it, when morons are prancing about making "much ado about nothing"Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-22 07:29:57

Btw, this topic seems to be really starting to take off. See the latest ITT addition, "What's the 411 on 9/11?" (What's a "411"? Operator-assisted information?)
A quote from that article, which i'm still reading now: 'At the University of Wisconsin, this distinguished academic [Dr. David Ray Griffin] told students at Bascom Hall that "there is no escape from the frightful conclusion that 9/11 was engineered by the Bush administration and its Pentagon."'
But be sure to watch out for the bait-n-switch in that piece and read the comments that follow.
Will scary coincidences never cease?Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-22 01:47:53

Good gad awmighty, Wiley, i'm (almost) dumbstruck! "Dense" as applied to you is obviously one of the worst attempts at labelling i've ever seen. "Opaque" works, but only if recognizing how readily you can turn the opacity on and off.
I am indeed hugely interested in anything more you've got to say about the what-really-happened and pentagon-strike references.
And, as to relevance, i hold that debunking the official disinfo is indeed part and parcel of what Vonnegut was urging us all to do in YGIAGAM.
That does indeed mean i see nothing wrong with ThePopulist's post. But that's neither here nor there. Given all that Scott writes for his blog -- and it is a LOT of what looks like fairly well-informed op-ed pieces on US mil' things -- it seems to me he's holding back herein.
But i want InFormed opinion from others who have relevant experience, as i'm completely lacking in that respect re US mil' affairs. I only know what i read and see in the boob tube and films. But you, you wiley witch, seem to fit the bill completely.
Why were you so coy and obscure before? Just being kind?Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-22 00:25:07

Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz have no excuse for "guessing", their signatures adorn a whole slew of breifings and committee reports on everything about nuclear force capability and command and control structure going back to the seventies. I'm just guessing, but it's an educated guess that they are not acting on what they know, but what they prefer to believe.
While they are ragging on Iran and North Korea, this administration has broken the ABM treaty, tried to push development of a new line of tactical nukes, tried to push through Star Wars (don't let the word "defense" fool you, it would be an escalation in the arms race), and pushed for renewed testing of nukes. And Bush and Putin agreed to take warheads off their missiles and "put them in the shed" (in the words of a senator) so that they're actually easier to steal, and made sure that everyone got the idea that these warheads were decommissioned and that our arsenals were reduced.
People who have the public trust and can destroy the planet should NOT be given the benefit of a doubt.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 21:40:11

NORAD and SAC are no longer together, NORAD is joined with the Space Command, and probably has a whole lot more satellite imagery now than they did back in the day.
(Google probably has a lot more capability than the military back in the day, but because of our "free market" Google I'd guess, that Google and other corporations are making big bucks on this technology that was developed with public funds.)Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 21:38:29

I worked in SAC/NORAD, and in a tactical radar unit in Germany with NATO forces, and for me, the most preposterous thing about 9/11 is that figuring out how in God's name our overlapping air defense system and satellites (that can read a furnace in a concrete warehouse) failed so completely. No heads rolled? That is preposterous!
Our nuclear missiles are on hair trigger alert (only someone as simple and gullible as a president and the generally poorly informed public believes that the Generals can't launch without presidential authority. Russian Soviet submarine commanders have launch authority.) Our nuclear missiles are so loaded and ready for launch that an entire Command and Control crew was sacked for going into overtime and not launching on a false alarm. So, let that sink in and then ask yourself why Command and Control is ready to nuke the planet on a moments warning but can't imagine shooting down a civilian jet airliner (as if Bush the elder had not done exactly that and said up front that he wouldn't apologize.)
I would like to follow up on Ad's comment later, because this is the first time I've seen an air traffic controller quoted. Air traffic controllers being so absent in the dialogue is one hell of a conspicuous absence. If you buy that we-can't-discuss-it-because-it-would-endanger-security bit, then you are being suckered. When I worked for SAC/NORAD watching the western hemisphere our classification was "Secret"---the lowest classification in the military. The FAA should be considerably less classified---it's a civilian agency that should be held fully accountable to the public.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 21:35:30

Now, I'll address the topic of your last post:
Well, rather than "guessing", I would say that this is wishful conjecture, based on I don't know what. Have you served in the military?
I've heard a lot of people carry on and on about how wonderful our troops are --- 'I know your son is a noble hero, and a good person....blah, blah, blah---(because he wears a uniform.) They don't know. It's magical thinking--- awfully close to believing in elves---to believe that a uniform confers all that it is supposed to symbolize on whomever wears it.
There are serial rapists in the military, just like there are serial racists in the general population. There are murderers in the military just like there are murderers in the general population. There are child molesters in the military just like there are child molesters in the general population.
Was it "just plain folks" raping the boy in front of his mother at Abu Graib? If so, then they were such "plain folks" that a well seasoned journalist who has been around the block a few times is afraid to talk about it.
So if this isn't sinking in, then tell yourself that someone as mindless as I am served in nuclear forces during the Cold War and military standards have dropped steadily since we got our war on in Afghanistan and Iraq. In '80, 60% of the Army was illiterate and their manuals were written like comic books.
There are good and noble people in the armed forces too. A lot of the smartest and most experienced ones were fired by the administration for not playing into the neocon fantasy of remaking the Middle East, or taking it by storm, or whatever their true intention wasPosted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 21:33:58

I have no problem with this reply. For some reason I don't think that forums must be limited to discussing an essay as if we were all amateur critics with a calling. The 'zine might do better to look at what people here want to discuss in depth and throw in more meat.
The manner of discourse seems to be a theme, and I think that's a topic worthy of pursuit and a pursuit worthy of exercise, when there are so many dittoheads of all stripes in echo chambers trying to kill discussion and there is so much that we need to learn in order to be informed citizens. In a republic or democracy, either one, discourse is more than entertainment, and I have to be a bit suspicious of those who belittle the processes.
And if people sometimes talk as people and not high school debating machines following some invisible set of rules, is that a bad thing? If the feeling that one is actually talking with "real" and complex people kills the joy, then maybe the level of discourse or intelligence of the posters is not really the issue.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 21:33:09

And why do you say this?:
Whether that is his point or not, the purpose of this thread is to discuss his essay.
and then post this:
Ad Marshall;
Yes, IPosted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 21:32:02

Populist, not to have a pissing contest, but to keep ourselves honest, why do you say this:
I agree with Rocco, letPosted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 21:26:08

Jesus was a Socialist.........
( Bingo on Thursday, Blasphemers and Fornicators welcome)
Yee Haw!Posted by minerva on 2005-12-21 20:25:05

Uh-oh! minerva,
Close your ears and your eyes all you sane ones. The Goddess of Wisdom has inspired me to quote song lyrics.
(with my best Casey Kasem voice) This is a flash from the past, but still timely. From the Chad Mitchell Trio, circa 1964.(pre-John Denver)

by Michael Brown
Oh, we're meetin' at the courthouse at eight o'clock tonight
You just walk in the door and take the first turn to the right
Be careful when you get there, we hate to be bereft
But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left
Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society, help us fill the ranks
To get this movement started we need lots of tools and cranks
Now there's no one that we're certain the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did but he's our hero just the same
Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Socialism is the ism dismalest of all
Join the John Birch Society, there's so much to do
Have you heard they're serving vodka at the WCTU?
Well you've heard about the agents that we've already named
Well MPA has agents that are flauntedly unashamed
We're after Rosie Clooney, we've gotten Pinkie Lee
And the day we get Red Skelton won't that be a victory
Oh we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Norman Vincent Peale may think he's kidding us along
But the John Birch Society knows he spilled the beans
He keeps on preaching brotherhood, but we know what he means
We'll teach you how to spot 'em in the cities or the sticks
For even Jasper Junction is just full of Bolsheviks
The CIA's subversive and so's the FCC
There's no one left but thee and we, and we're not sure of thee
Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society holding off the Reds
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads
Do you want Justice Warren for your Commissar?
Do you want Mrs. Krushchev in there with the DAR?
You cannot trust your neighbor or even next of kin
If mommie is a commie then you gotta turn her in
Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the Right
Join the John Birch Society as we're marching on
And we'll all be glad to see you when we're meeting in the John
The John, the John Birch So- ci- i- tee

Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 20:01:51

I remember the Rhinocheros party....people tend to mistake satire for a lack of seriousness, or sanity even.
And they would be right...deadly right..in that perspective
lolPosted by minerva on 2005-12-21 19:39:52

Glad I made you laugh Ad. It appears that your drunken pain-relieving ritual worked.
I may have to steal the "interdependent" label if someone starts an "independent" party.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 18:27:23

Yet another one on what really happened in 9/11.
"Distinguished University of Minnesota Philosophy Professor Joins 9/11 Fight, Saying the Truth Must Be Uncovered", at
ArcticBeacon, http://tinyurl.com/9kz3b -- including another view on the WTC and Pentagon Strikes.
(Longish) Extract:
Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 18:17:01

And who are these pathetic souls lurking among the threads but not speaking, who make it so important for armchair presidents to pontificate on a forum that is populated by people who just don't understand something no matter how often it's repeated and who aren't "real"?
Rocco,
I have - and again to my credit - responded to the Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 18:11:14

Wiley;
I'm registered Green, but I consider myself an Anarchist.
Or a Buddhist. Or a Bicyclist. Or... Good grief, I'm a freaking menu.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 17:48:27

LB, touchPosted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 17:44:25

Being Canadadian, the GOP and donkeys -- not the same thing, right? -- are just small-c conservatives to me.
I'm interdependent: i go for what makes most sense in some place and time.Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 17:36:03

Ow! Ow! Ow!
From now to the edges of time
I renounce all the pleasures of rhyme.
And if I ever
Say anything clever
I confess in advance for the crime.
They say torture doesn't work!Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 17:35:34

Just out of curiosity, how many people here call themselves and consider themselves to be Democrats and how many call themselves and consider themselves to be Republican.
I'm independent.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-21 17:31:49

found page two of posts.
All I can say, is thank you Rocco for socking it to the sophmores. Logorrhea!Posted by marge on 2005-12-21 17:25:59

Duh, what?!?
Not suggesting the offence you've taken is ungrounded -- don't know if it is or not -- but this was just posted by Wiley to another forum and i'd say it can hardly be classified as "dense or opaque":
Public service message -- the death toll for medical error has exceeded the death toll for car accidents, so drive carefully (you donPosted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 17:25:22

my god, i am the least understood person I have ever observed on this board.
Wiley picked on me out of the blue, like she/he does to many posters. She is shrill, too intense, sophmoric. I simply defended my ethereal self from her opacity and density
she totally misunderstood my post and insulted my intelligence.
you have all conjured up all sorts of inaccurate images of me that are far more revealing of you.
I apparently provided the void that suddenly gave weightlessness to your minds and out it flowed.
i don't wish for attention from KV, sleep with his underwear or etc.
i don't cling to the hems of journalists
i am not a troll
i was not kissing your bunny's butt.
I feel like this is "what's my line." and don't want to play anymore, so bye.Posted by marge on 2005-12-21 17:16:52

Since torture's all the rage in the US these days, i'll flog LumiBeaut:
A limerick packs laughs anatomical
Into space that's quite economical.
But the good ones I've seen
Are so seldom clean,
And the clean ones so seldom comical.Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 17:15:48

Since, I am so pretentiously arty.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 17:05:59

doggerel makes me wince. Even when I'm the guilty party.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 16:56:24

hi, nurse minerva,
Please, take my temperature first. I'm feeling hot!
Andi, another dumb reason you can use or not.
*You can draw a little smiley-face for the dot.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 16:51:56

Btw, LumiBeut, you had me completely fooled on the gender guessing thing.
Related: i use "Andi" instead of "Andy" for two good reasons and two dumb ones.
Good:
* it makes my gender a trickier to guess on the Net
* it's easier for southern Vietnamese to read and say and has an interesting variety of possible meanings in Vietnamese, like "Eat and go", "moving peaceably" and combinations thereof
Dumb:
* i don't like most of the words, phrases, things from NAm (North American) culture i associate with "Andy"
* an "i" uses less ink or lit pixels than a "y"Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 16:44:45

OK. I can dig that kind of poetry, lymerickly light.
Howdy do to Bellavue.Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 16:35:42

"They are waiting for all of you at Bellevue."
And I'll be waiting with my sweet smile, my humanistic bent, and my well earned creditibility....
"Hi. I'm Minerva...Minerva Jones. I'm the charge nurse.
just don't let your delusion system overwhelm your skivinity, ok?"
lol
The world is awry and so am I.....Posted by minerva on 2005-12-21 16:09:59

Just for the record, Andi, I too am one of the guys. Don't be fooled by the handle. Don't try to read too much into it. It's partly accidental, partly an old private joke on me.
Yeah, poetry does that sometimes.
I suppose it's better than having no effect at all.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 15:53:03

Maybe, maybe, just a tad harsh about asking us guys to think so far outside of our boxes. I, too, instinctively winced at each post of personal poetry here. I don't even know why. Just did. Then again wo-men still do seem to me like a whole 'nother species -- but my favorite one, by the way.Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 15:12:19

Andi--re: My jab
Was I too harsh in my admonition for them to think? I'm sorry.
Namaste, m. goodwin
Namaste, rocco
Please forgive me my tone of arrogant and wrathful disdain. I really meant it as a whining pathetic plea.
You can kick me if you want. I don't mind.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 14:17:06

Something i just picked up from the ITT List, posted by Silja J.A. Talvi:
* My other recommendation is for a ground-breaking DVD, With God on Our Side: George W. Bush and the Rise of the Religious Right in America, a documentary film (with plenty of DVD extras, [http://www.firstrunfeatures.com/withgodonoursidedvd.html])...
...[for] how, exactly, someone like George W. Bush got into powerPosted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 14:07:06

By the way, in SighGone it is now another day. Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 13:54:15

Again y'all, you can call me Andi. That's my real name.
Anyway, i agree completely that most in the US military are in all likelihood good folks or, at the extreme, mainly just a bunch of good ol' boys with a few babes thrown in.
And i'd find it surprising if even a clique of psychopaths running things could imagine they could hide such a diabolical act on such a grand scale for even the term of one POTUS from the average Jane and Joe. But, as LumiBeaut noted, the physics seems to say otherwise, aside from some the eyewitness reports presented at those URLs.
To me, the neatness of the WTC collapses still affords many possible explanations. But the lack of debris and neatness of the holes punched through the Pentagon are just too hard to imagine as being the result of a passenger jet collision.
Could it be a missile was fired at one of the jets and went incredibly astray? But "incredibly" seems to be the key word in that sentence. Again, the holes were just too neat and even for a missile it would have been such a nice shot. Did you see the vidis at Pentagon Strike?
And, back to the character of the majority of the US mil', as Vonnegut also points out in several of his works, the vast majority of Hitler's key followers and foot soldiers were also just decent folk simply caught up in a maelstrom of frustration, fear and religious fervor.
Somewhere in Hocus Pocus, that i can't find right now, Vonnegut claims the Nazi cross and swastika were both merely adaptations of the Christian cross -- a claim that might have been discredited by a report i saw recently but also can't find right now.
Put the compartmentalisation LumiBeaut just noted together with the indoctrination techniques used by the US mil' plus the vast amounts of wealth a pyschopathic clique might gain from being exclusively in-the-know before and after 9/11, is it really so preposterous to imagine.
PS: LumiBeaut, re your jab at goodwin and rocco, as my father always liked to say, but i'll ask, do two wrongs make a right?Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 13:52:54

"Your Guess Is as Good as Mine"Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 12:31:35

The-Pop;
Cannot the preposterous be true? I don't 'know' the absolute and perfect 'Truth' about what went down on 911.
But enough serious questions have been raised (once one has culled the wheat from the chaff) to entertain the reasonable belief that the official story is a fabrication.
Just based on the laws of physics. Something in my opinion about as genuinely 'knowable' as one can get. Not that there aren't outstanding unknowns in the field, but GM or M Theory do not particularly strike me as applicable in a problem concerning Civil Engineering. But then again, quien sabe? Perhaps some kind of quantum spookiness or a serendipitous gravitational soliton brought down the WTC in apparent contravention of the principles of conservation.
I do know that the baroque nature of the US Security establishment is so vast, complex, classified and compartmentalized that it is almost trivial to say that the right hand has no idea what the left hand is doing. The military chain of command may well be unaware of the existence of any such presumed conspiracy and their involvement on a need to know basis a perfectly structured exercise in 'plausible deniability'. I just don't know, but it's the unanswered questions that prick my imagination. As long as billions of dollars are moving around between publicly unaccountable and unknowable factions, interest groups, private and foreign contractors, and who knows what under the cover of secrecy, my suspicions will remain open-ended at the very least.
You are perfectly free to believe or not believe whatever you want, but I'd rather take the tack that says the road to knowledge is advanced by entertaining provocative questions rather than declaring them preposterous just because they conflict with our intuitive understanding of the world. Otherwise we might still be studying Ptolemy in Astrophysics classes.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-21 12:17:36

Ad Marshall;
Yes, I've read some "theories" that propose the Bush adminsitration was responsible for 9/11. I dont believe it, in the sense that I dont believe his cronies actually planned the attack and made it look like al-Qeada did it.
These things are preposterous. Does anyone actually believe that the US military chain of command, (they would have to be involved), would take part in such a diabolical act? Most of our military is just plain folks, which is to say good people.
I agree with your statement that what we know vastly less than we dont know. But I still try not to "believe" in things, because believing is not knowing, yet not admitting that you don't know. Maybe that is what Mr. Vonnegut means by guessing.
...Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-21 09:31:15

Gad. Livin'n'learnin' is a sort of irresistable esctacy in itself. I read Ortega y Gasset as part of a semiotics course back in uni'.
I'd forgotten most of what he wrote in "Revolt of the Masses" and was just reading the page at the URL referenced above to reinform myself. In doing so, i came across a couple quotes that are just too apropos to not post here (sorry "m goodwin".)
Warning: OyG's perspective might offend some who believe in "democracy, no matter what". Anyway, here they are:
01. We do not know what is happening to us, and this is precisely what is happening to us, not to know what is happening to us: the man of today is beginning to be disoriented with respect to himself, dPosted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 08:41:25

Ha! I might have lied, yet again: i'm posting one more today.
I just discovered YGIAGAM is already an established acronym. See http://www.smsdictionary.co.uk/?p=i&q=YGIAGAM or http://www.acronymfinder.com.
I just liked it because sounds like something that might actually have interesting meaning as "y giagam" in Spanish. It reminded me of Ortega y Gasset and his "Revolt of the Masses" [http://www.historyguide.org/europe/gasset.html] -- which also has relevance to this exented disco, btw.
Live'n'learn...Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 08:01:17

You know, to me, what Vonnegut is primarily saying in his essay is something like this --:
What we do not know will always vastly exceed what we know, even as the Information Revolution becomes an intellectual hyperevolution (a beautifully ambiguous neologism which can be pronounced as either HyperEvolution or HypeRevolution).
Just ask "What is God?" or "What is Nothing?" and it soon becomes obvious how big the unknownable or unknown must be. So, given all the influences on our lives that we can't hope to understand or know, we're all just guessing and always will be.
And this goes for even the most revered and despised leaders of human history, even those who huge majorities of folks have followed, virtually unquestioningly, to our common benefit or detriment.
Vonnegut wrote in "Susan Sontag and Arthur Miller", also on ITT, that Sontag was once "asked what she had learned from the Holocaust, and she said that 10 percent of any population is cruel, no matter what, and that 10 percent is merciful, no matter what, and that the remaining 80 percent could be moved in either direction."
Vonnegut harks back to these ratios in concluding Your Guess is as Good as Mine (YGIAGAM): "... let me warn you, if you make use of the vast fund of knowledge now available to educated persons, you are going to be lonesome as hell. The guessers outnumber you--and now I have to guess--about ten to one."
Vonnegut seems to believe these ratios have been relatively constant throughout human history, and i for one would agree. Though the masses aren't asses, they certainly can't be relied upon for either socially responsible or rational leadership or defence.
The difference between previous times and this point in the Info Revolution that Vonnegut seems to be highlighting is that, now, we live in a globally networked info-village still dominated by one nation whose leaders are not just abusing the guessing game to their advantage. They're actively and intentionally demanding that their bad information drive out the good and any objectively informed and reasoned evaluation of as much should not only be considered "beyond the pale" but banished from the corridors of power they've usurped.
To this end, they've undermined the US education system, goaded the US media into "getting with their program" and, given what Gallup and Neilson summarize, they've largely won or sufficiently confused the hearts and minds of most so-called "Americans".
What Vonnegut's conclusion to YGIAGAM then wittily implores us to do is to maintain the courage needed to seek the best-informed guesses and not succumb to the tyranny of the majority as it is manipulated by "10 percent cruel, no matter what."
As to that 10-percent cruel, no matter what, now dominating the gloabal geo-political scene, Vonnegut also offers a rationale as to how they got where they are today, in an interview with Him also here on ITT.
In "Kurt Vonnegut vs. the !*!@", Joel Bleifuss quotes Vonnegut as saying, "... those now in charge of the federal government are upper-crust C-students who know no history or geography, plus not-so-closeted white supremacists, aka Christians,Posted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 07:33:34

This post may seem slightly OT (off-topic), but i'd suggest it goes to an assertion Vonnegut is making in YGIAGAM: that we must use a lot more of the information available to us from non-leadership, even anti-establishment sources but not neglect rationally questioning its validity.
A few questions about some alt-info sources have been nagging me recently and i reckon Scott at least has some considerable experience that might help shed some light on the issues.
Given my own predisposition and admitted prejudices about the recent US Admin's, after admittedly just skimming over two of the resources i referred to earlier when comparing Scott's and Vonnegut's "The End is Near" essay, i'm now guessing that 9/11 was a bit of insidiously violent social engineering orchestrated by the Bush regime to gain the support it seeks to autocratically rule the United States peoples and resources primarily to enrich and bolster the power of the oil-and-arms clique now using Georgie Jr as its talking head.
Again, the two alt-info resources are: "The 9/11 WTC Collapses - Index of What Really HappenedPosted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 06:46:52

Hey, at this point, could we take a break now from the personal attacks and ventings of our pet peeves or, for lack of a better word, polemics. Can we actually do what Scott (ThePopulist) is proposing: complying with the aim of this list and discussing Vonnegut's essay or related issues as the educated beings everyone here appears to be?
I joined this forum late and, at that point, it did indeed seem to be dominated by posts aimed at self-amusement, as rocco just decried. I joined in on that angle, saw a chance to try break a block that had been dogging me, and, after succeeding, OK, i went wild. But i've already apologized for that, twice, maybe thrice now.
That, Scott, was the only "booty" i referred to earlier, the breaking of my writer's block and, in the bargain, the outlines of a few (hypo)theses i'd like to pursue. I state here, without qualification, that any references i made to others' sites, businesses or other interests were purely satirically intended. And, if the "phishing" accusation was aimed at me, i also unequivocally deny that -- though i think a quick look at a good definition of phishing would make it quite clear that there'd be no point of attempting as much in this forum.
But perhaps "spoofing" is what was actually meant. That i did indeed do, as "KV-Jr". But i think i left enough blatant clues in those posts to let anyone cluey enough about the Net immediately see that those posts were "ho'xes". I was also carefully watching out for anyone who might have been grievously deceived by those posts and i was fully ready to out myself if it seemed as much had happened. They were just jokes, ones that seemed quite apropos in context at the time.
To the other folks here as yet unmentioned, please don't think i'm trying to say this forum should be conducted as a cold, hard academic discourse. Online forums by their very allowance of posts from behind camouflaging usernames always have a tendency to swing between reasoned discourse, mere amusement and flame wars. It's the implicit trade-off of allowing anonymity that so much of the Net gambles on for the sake of outing and harvesting the creative thoughts that many can't release without the knowledge that they can fight or flee at any moment without fear of anyone being able to hunt them down and hold them responsible for what they might have written on a whim.
Okie dokie, doods and dames? Can we move on to 'just being kind', simply ignoring any attacks that creep out while focusing on more constructive, relevant exchanges?
ITT seems to me a resource well worth preserving and promoting as an open, intellectual forum in a socially responsible, not repressive, sense. We can have our fun, of course. But shouldn't we careful not to threaten what we've got here via over-indulgence?
One final quote, with apologies to "m goodwin" for ignoring your wishes: Please be respectful in your comments and try to remain on topic. -- IIT Comments Web Form.
AD.2005.Dec.21.20:52.ICTPosted by AD Marshall on 2005-12-21 05:54:22

Haha, I'd like to add a little something to what Rocco so eloquently provided us with, even though it's critical and a little mean.
Luminous Beauty--I'm getting tired of the quotes. Camus, Bob Dylan, your poet friend--none of it is really hitting home for me, at least not in reference to the essay. And your name, Luminous Beauty...maybe I should change mine to Cosmically Attractive, or something to that nature, if that's how you like to do it.
I also want to add to the thing about Ghost Rabbit, though you said it perfectly, Rocco, "If you refer to yourself in the 3rd person one more time, we shall all pay a heavy psychic fine. Stop your ego before it destroys us all"(!) Moreover, Ghost Rabbit, I know the bunny ears are your "thing" and all, but I've just never been a fan of keyboard-symbols-of-our-selves. It's too garish for me.
Sorry, I suck for writing that and I know it.Posted by m goodwin on 2005-12-21 04:41:21

Actually, the truth must be obvious, and no offence to Kurt. It is necessary to labour things a bit, to bring any context into the subject of Guessers. The idea was OK but not really adequate to replace a more direct interpretation of the cause of the Economic, Homeland and Foreign disasters. These are more accurately caused by a Criminal Junta, a gang of Ultra Gangsters who have been allowed to hijack the US democracy. The disasters appear more often than not to be orchestrated and thus to suggest that mere guessing games is to blame is to be a bit to wide eyed innocent than even a bunny.
This is the underlying flaw with the whole article and Populist has sure enough been saying something similar. Rabbit is suggesting that the concept is pretty and it has a certain metaphorical value, but it is really oversimplifying things, if it is to be seen as the rreason for the problems. It allows us to better see some of the faults inherant in the system, but not necessarily to identify the actual culprits, assuming there are "Culprits" who own most . of the blame, or their motives/failings.
These are as we know, greed, lust, fear, and who knows what else.
A number of presumptions have already been made by Populist, and Rabbit at least would need to remove these or clarify them before commenting in detail on the rest of these ideas. Back later.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-21 02:54:02

You my dear Rocco are the king fruoitloop. rabbit will refer to himself in the third person if it amuses him, and it does. Furthermore Rabbit has done so for quite a few years, and is not likely to alter such habits because some self loving, presumptive ass with a smidgin of personality disorder and a minor Messiah complex, has requested it. Better men than you have tried Gunga Din, but Rabbit stands firm in his mannerisms and way. It is him.
To presume egotism as a Rabbit flaw from such a few very few posts and flippant ones at that, is drawing quite a long bow, and since the rabbit is an Aries, you would be wrong. Aries do not ascribe to human ego flaws. The rabbit chooses the mode of communication which is most truly he, from his heart and as much for his own creative amusement as for artistic expression. To claim ego of Rabbit on the basis of these few posts, is unjust.
If you wsih to prove this then by all means continue to poke Rabbit as if you think he has an ego. Just beware that if that is not his ego you are poking, then the effect may noy exactly be what you are looking for.
Now seriously, do you think you are some kind of ringmaster? Did you seriously climb into the ring with these people, Lumens, Wiley, Rabbit and Dave, not to mention these few strange ones who have been thick on this thread, with the conviction that you would just crack a whip and insult people ? And to what end?
The best way to avoid inane blather is for us to ignore Morons, and presumtive fellows who pop up and make ad-hominem attacks on all and sundry while themselves prattling on like a prize dingbat.
The fact is, that the general message to be gained form the thread, is that "Your Guess is as Good as Mine", and the weird and wonderful, eclectic mix of people who have gathered about the totem pole of this thread are as good or as bad, as bright or as mad, glad or sad, as anybody. You do not look like a doctor to Rabbit, you are just one of the inmates too.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-21 02:37:23

Right on Rocco;
I like Kurt Vonnegut, and I recently became interested in him and his work. That's why I became a member of this forum, and posted to this thread. However my first post disagreed with Mr. Vonnegut.
Because I dont think our policy disasters are about guesses. I think these are deliberate decisions made by a bunch of off-the-lake crooks. That doesnt mean they know what they are doing, or that things are going to work out the way they planned.
Our national finances are tottering. This year's budget deficit will be over 400 billion, surpassed only by our astonishing trade deficit of near 700 billion. The US truly stands on the brink of a financial precipice.
Meanwhile Pakistan has helped North Korea go nuclear, and Iran will have nuclear weapons soon. The United States has done nothing to prevent this, instead Bush Inc has lied to embroil one third of our Army in Iraq. Allegedly to prevent that country from building Weapons of Mass Destruction.
The Bush administration, these "neo-conservatives", could not have done more to drive this country over an abyss if they had planned it. So maybe they are in fact guessers, and maybe that is the point Mr. vonnegut was trying to make. Whether that is his point or not, the purpose of this thread is to discuss his essay.
I agree with Rocco, let's get back to political discourse, and lose the pontification and phishing.
...Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-21 01:53:51

Speaking of dental plans, this thread is like a sore tooth. I just can't stop poking at it tonight. Maybe you guys are growing on me. At heart, I'm a big softy.
1) Luminous - you completely lost me. I have no possible response. But...I would like to point out the inconsistency of questioning my claim to sanity, while posting a poem - and that poem! - as a "breath of sanity." Eye of the beholder, eh?
2) Wiley - unlike the many conspiracies of which you obviously perceive, I was not hired out as some sort of ITT paramilitary force. Don't lash out at them in typical paranoid fashion, please. A friend of mine just said: "Christ, there are a lot of wackos on our site." He thought I could help.
And since I'm in this a bit deeper than I had initially intended to be, suffice it to say I can't stand the earnest, half-bright grandstanding of political stances forged in undergraduate liberal arts programs. Such self-regard...it's why I hate Americans, and Europeans, and pretty much everyone for that matter, and why I secretly hope for us all to lose electricity, plumbing, and cable. I think that might consolidate the left a bit. Plus, think of the entertainment value! And isn't entertainment what this is all about in the end? And isn't that what I have contributed? Admit it, you're feeling the tingles.
3) Ghost Rabbit - You are the embodiment of all I fear. If you refer to yourself in the 3rd person one more time, we shall all pay a heavy psychic fine. Stop your ego before it destroys us all.
I think we're making real progress here, folks. Keep up the inane blather!Posted by rocco on 2005-12-20 23:59:39

So did you find the Sherrif's badge did you Rocco?
This thread is like a bowl of fruitloops, it is true, but some of us are just visiting for fun, while some are here for breakfast.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-20 22:02:23

Perhaps I should have stopped there Dave, but I had to make a correction, and you know how it goes?
http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/122005_world_stories.shtml#1
There's an article starting with "Head's Roll..." about DU here. If this is correct then the whole DU cat is out of the bag, and the VA will not be able to deny it much longer, which means the government won't be able to deny it much longer.
I won't get my hopes up too much, but thanks to the work of Viet Nam veterans and those who helped them, this atrocity won't be denied as long as the effects of Agent Orange were. This alone could be the seed of our destruction (referring to humanity). For the Iraqis and everyone in Iraq during this invasion and occupation, it IS the seed of their destruction.
Who let these people out? Basta!Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-20 21:37:31

Corrections: My bad Jim Weinstein is the name of the man who died. Dave Lindorff wrote the article.
And that last paragraph up there goes to you alone rocco.
I hope that the staff has enough sense to connect the crowd it attracts with its own manifestation instead of having a pity party, and having an abrasive jack ass express it for them, if that indeed is what's going on here.
If not, very well then. Rocco can waft in and out on his own stink---he's contributed nothing as far as I can tell, but summaries of people he doesn't know and the suggestion that he is superior for reading posts by posters he considers to be "crazy" and "foolish" and not responding to them.
As to being a victim of your own sanity, rocco--- boo fucking hoo---if you or the staff have a problem with people not responding positively to being called "crazy" and "foolish" then perhaps you really should consult a counselor, and beef up that dental plan.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-20 20:46:17

Well said Wiley.
I arrived here just before Dave Lindorff bid ITT farewell. Watched it all go down on the Radioactive Wounds of War thread.
My thanks, also, to ITT for providing this forum.
It is like an idea factory. People put ideas in and more ideas get made .. or reconditioned .. or thrown on the scrap heap.Posted by David in Canada on 2005-12-20 20:45:22

Well, Rocco, the day after I decided to save this site as my homepage and jump in (after going five months without a bulletin board) I found this article.
http://www.counterpunch.com/lindorff11192005.html
Someone out there thought this 'zine died with Dave Lindorff and its own compromises with truth.
They feel that their beloved Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-20 19:23:39

Luminous - IPosted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-20 18:40:12

Can't wait to work it on the homies tonight when the telly comes on. Looks like 10 minutes or so....
'...and a pony' works well, too. As in 'somewhere underneath all this manure there must be...'Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-20 17:57:41

Luminous - I'm hoping you we're slyly kidding re your translation. It's more like saying, "Get some stones." Or in the case of ITT contributors, some iron and some sun.Posted by rocco on 2005-12-20 17:50:50

wileywitch,
I have - and again to my credit - responded to the "conversation" for my own reasons, not to least of which is I had been asked by staff to do so. They feel that their beloved 'zine has been taken over by fools and crazies, and they look behind at a bitter memory of enlightened and pointed discourse.
Once upon a time, a monk was cast out of the village by the king, who had poisoned all other subjects in order to control them. But it bothered the king that they should think themselves sane, so he spared the monk, but banished him. The monk had to return, however, once a month, just to tell everyone that they were crazy.
I have returned. You're all nuts.Posted by rocco on 2005-12-20 17:48:54

Probably a good choice, Lumens. Prop up yer tootsies. I'm going to read until my eyes cross and play a game my friend Felonious Grammar made up, called "and then smoked some crack." It's easy to play---whenever you read an article or hear a newscast, see if you can slip "and then smoked some crack" after a line in it somewhere so that the article then makes sense.
p.s. This joke always makes me laugh because it's so close to the truth.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-20 17:27:44

Thought I'd pass this poem e-mailed today by poet friend, FlyingYachtAngel. Because it came as a breath of sanity and just because I like it
burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr and wet toooooooooooooo
What sweet smell this winter wind brings
As sure as the rising warmth of our camp fires
We are as aged sweet things ripe in the knowledge of our cares and
needs
Again we assail the ridges of worry for we call to ourselves again
and again
Oh woe is the next step; oh woe is the task of worry for it shall
be as the cold
Always encroaching
It will bloom in the darkness of winter's everlasting touch
May our warmth be shared in the light of the winter's need
And those amongst with much, with plenty search out those in need
Of love
Of nourishment
Of warmth
Of caring
And those amongst us with a full measure and not else take a count
of
The blessings
The warm of our friends' arms
The comradeship of the meals shared
The meals themselves
The cup--------filled with wine or the goodness to have any and all
The promise of what will; as follows the winter solstices
The longer day and the warmer nightPosted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-20 17:07:49

Ted Striker: My orders came through. My squadron ships out tomorrow. We're bombing the storage depots at Daiquiri at 1800 hours. We're coming in from the north, below their radar.
Elaine Dickinson: When will you be back?
Ted Striker: I can't tell you that. It's classified.
After a day in the monkey house sparing with J. Clinebottle & Co. on the Tale of Two Wars thread, I could use a blast of total unhindered pure absurd and incoherent craziness to wash over me and cleanse my soul of troll ectoplasm. I think I'll just fix a drink instead.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-20 16:46:18

Did someone say voices inside my head?
Voices Inside My Head
(lyrics/music by Sting)
Voices inside my head
Echoes of things that you said
Voices inside my head
Echoes of things that you said
Voices inside my head
Echoes of things that you said
Voices inside my head
Echoes of things that you saidPosted by David in Canada on 2005-12-20 14:57:19

After twelve grueling, budget-draining years of therapy my psychiatrist finally said something that actually brought tears to my eyes. He said, "No hablo ingles."
Be a better psychiatrist and the world will beat a pyshopath to your door.Posted by ex-lurker on 2005-12-20 12:36:28

A psychotic thinks that two and two are five.
A neurotic knows two and two are four -- but he hates it.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-20 11:32:42

I like this one:
Neurotics build castles in the sky.
Psychotics live in them.
Psychiatrists collect the rent.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-20 09:54:52

i guess your guess is as good as mine, but...

a beat schizophrenic said, "me?
i am not i, i'm a tree."
but another, more sane,
shouted, "i'm a great dane!"
and covered his pants leg with pee.

Posted by ex-lurker on 2005-12-20 08:24:14

The advantage of hearing voices in one's head is one is never alone. The downside is the conversation soon becomes predictable.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-20 08:10:50

Admarshall and KV-R are the same person, this much is obvious, but what was this person?
Ideas anyone?Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-20 08:09:54

????????????

Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-20 07:55:00

Dear Wabbi,
I've copped my booty, made my amends and, for me, the gig is now his-story.
As to most of your questions, again:
* Writers can treat their mental illnesses every day.Posted by admarshall on 2005-12-20 05:14:22

Admarshall
You seem like a very complex fellow. Almost like a multiple personailty, one of them being some sort of robot. No offence, but these weird things are going on in your posts, which are the only reason some have reacted a bit ad-hominably towards you , I think. This does not include the rabbit, it is to be hoped you have noticed. Rabbit has not indulged in any Adding or Homineming towards Admarshall, indeed the rabbit has engaged him directly, simply and with the purest intent. Seeking only understanding and harmony among the liberal brethren, and sisterens on this strange and twisting thread.
By the way, Rabbit feels that anything which "comes across that logically tears down the final shred of evidence that you thought you had," that is the time to call it quits and admit one is wrong.
The other way is for right wingnuts, Morons and Trolls.
There is no suggestion that Admarshall is wrong about anything either, just an observation on the quote.
BTW are you posting as two persons?Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-20 03:45:26

Well, in the end, i guess i deserved that wabbit. Looking for a way to break an annoying writer's block, i found it here. And, again, i have to thank y'all for that. But then i almost immediately lost it in a completely idiosyncratic outpour of relief and totally abused the tolerance of all you folks here.
Looking for a pithy quote to go along with this confession, this one seemed almost too apropos -- please pardon the whacky format this one last time:
am@[Cache]$ fortune -am egotist all
%% (fortunes2-o)
Fortune's Rules for Memo Wars: #3
The proper time for a vicious ad hominem attack is when you have no logical recourse. If you have been arguing a point with a person or persons for 30 odd weeks, and a memo comes across that logically tears down the final shred of evidence that you thought you had, that is the time to call
the author of that memo:
1: a mindless twit who attacks other people's beliefs for no reason.
2: an egotistical flaming typical wombat aggie melon-humping cheese-whizzing nanosexual subuseless clamsucker whose memos are apparently sneezed onto his/her terminal.
3: something unpleasant.
The OTHER proper time for an ad hominem attack is immediately after someone has posted something you don't understand. Given the current state of modern electronic communications technology your inability to comprehend the meaning of an memo constitutes a violation of western moral tradition on the part of the author of that memo, and the author should be taken to task publicly via a series of really nasty, name-calling oriented memos.
Then, i remembered a couple of even more aproppriate quotes -- whose relevance i'll to to y'all to figure out -- from John Winokur's Writers on Writing, Port City Press, 1986:
Writers can treat their mental illnesses every day. -- Kurt Vonnegut
Every successful creative person creates with an audience of one in mind. -- Kurt Vonnegut
My thanks to Seamus for keeping this forum open long enough for me to post my mea culpa.Posted by admarshall on 2005-12-19 15:06:47

Admarshall, nobody minds the HTML, if only you could learn how to do it. For an IT specialist you are pretty crummy at this stuff, and it is largely this wacky format you leave behind which is freaking out the mini multitude.
Seriously, get your act together and post links like a nice fellow, and if you need a wee hand just ask, Rabbit will explain in a few sentences, he learned HTML in a bout ten minutes one day to stop a Troll named Jay from posing anymore at one point when he thought he was hot shit because he could post links on this software deprived site.
This is mentioned to show that there is no pride behind the offer, merely a Rabbitish wish to make things neat and tidy and readable.
Art thou familiar with Tinyurls?Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-19 03:27:44

this is _not_ the way i like to start my day. i was enjoying the flow of posts here and looking forward to more.
shameus (how suitable), did you think of considering the opinions of any of us who did not complain? or did you simply side with thepopulist because his childish rants seemed more of an obvious threat than those that were at least polite?
just to give you an idea of who's butt you're kissing, here's a comment to one of the few screeds on thepopulist's site that got much feedback at all:
As a 30 year history professor at Stanford University, I find the article an insult to the reader. I used to be a loyal reader of the Populist. After reading the outright lies you published in the above article, everything the Populist contains is suspect. I will never read any of the Populist articles again as you have obviously hired "National Enquirer" type writers like AS Piriano. Next time you guys agree to print an article make sure the guy writing it is credible obviously this one isnt.
Posted by: | November 15, 2005 at 09:25 AM
and how did thepopulist respond to that? with the same cursory chop-logic he's displayed in this forum:
Stanford History Professor, (yeah right);
If this essay is false please enlighten us. You are not the first one to claim that this essay is a lie. But you could be the first to disprove my statements.
...
Posted by: The Populist | November 15, 2005 at 11:44 AMPosted by ex-lurker on 2005-12-19 01:42:57

Apropos many posts herein and Vonnegut's Y'GIAGAM (Yo' Guess is as Good as Mine), from the CounterPunch:
Defeated in Iraq, Bankrupt at Home, Despised Around the Globe (And That's Just the Good News)
The Decline of the American Empire
By GABRIEL KOLKO
The dilemma the US has had for a half-century is that the priorities it must impose on its budget and its imperial plans have never guided its actual behavior and action.
Now, the dilemma, to provide a reference or not, that is the question, whether 'tis nobler to suffer accusations of forum spamming or follow accepted standards of intellectual rigour and say where the hey your info came from.
I'll choose the latter. The full above is from where Kolko's full essay can be found.Posted by admarshall on 2005-12-19 00:45:47

Seamus, "What forbids us to tell the truth, laughingly?, Horace, Satires, I.24
This is as good a time as any for this ho'x to unsub...Posted by kv-jr on 2005-12-19 00:27:02

Hooray for Seamus.........The hand of Web God....Did you see it everybody, Seamus has spoken and he is the boss.
.....................................................^^...............................................
Rabbit bows humbly to Seamus and asks publically, in case Seamus is still noticing us, why does the Rabbit be banned? He would rather be a Rabbit than a GhostRabbit any day? But suddenly Rabbit cannot be Rabbit anymore. Back to being a poor old dead rabbit, ghost.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-19 00:24:39

ShameUs, sorry, Seamus, what could you possibly mean by "form hijacking"?
:-{{ (Posted by kv-jr on 2005-12-19 00:19:47

Dear ThePopulist,
Re:
* "The End is Near" by Kurt Vonnegut, AD.2004.Oct.29, and
* "The End is Near" by A. Scott Piraino (you, right?), AD.2004.Nov.04.
I just finished reading these two near-Ends, Baba Vonnegut's in ITT and yours at your blog (URLs above). I read Baba's near-End piece first since it came first, just before the AD.2004 US election, while yours came just after.
Mainly, I noted Baba's piece somehow managed to make the cold hard reality of our suicidal planet-rape (no matter what happened in the US election) end up sounding funny. In contrast, to me, your essay despaired what Georgie Jr's crew had already gotten away with and decried the realization that the official majority of your Yankee cohorts had just asked Georgie for an encore.
I think i got your point. Ou non? If so, i'd agree with it.
But... ;) ... i've just a couple things i thought might build on what i think is your case.
When i read that you saw "a global consensus that the perpetrators of those heinous [9/11] attacks must be brought to justice" and bemoaned that "... instead of fighting that war, he [Georgie] chose to invade Iraq", a few webbies i'd recently harvested popped to mind:
* "The 9/11 WTC Collapses - Index of What Really Happened", . They make a pretty hefty case there for the Saudi's busted for 9/11 having a heck of a lot of inside US security help. I mean, as the page and vidis provided quite eloquently depict, how the hey do a pair of huge office towers designed to withstand airplane hits fall so neatly into their footprints after having a couple passenger jets plow into the SIDES of their upper floors?
* In a similar vein, Pentagon Strike provide a very slick Flash vidi and docs that point out one of those wonderous how-could-ive-missed-it-moments that sometimes make me think we've all got way too many endocannabinoids bopping about in our brains (not just me): there was no clearly identifiable debris from the passenger jet that poked such neat little set of holes straight through several walls of reinforced concrete. How could that be done?
I owe these tidbits directly or indirectly to the site of J Orlin Grabbe . Grabbe was one of the (some say crooked) founders of Laissez-Faire City sovereign "micronation" in Costa Rica in the 90s, author of the leading MBA textbook International Financial Markets, the widely acclaimed essays "End of Ordinary Money" (about digital cash and laundering it) and "The Function of the Drug War" (maybe not what you thot) and he remains an apparent dabbler in cryptography, quantum physics and the mathematics of time, which he presents on his somewhat lewd site updated daily. You might like him.
The other snippet of your near-End piece that stuck a chord was when you wrote this: "We can't blame the Media... the press by and large reported the truth."
I'd say: The press too can (sometimes) report the truth, yet not the whole truth. Watching British, Australian, Canadian, French, Chinese and Vietnamese media before and after the US 9/11, it seemed both laughably and painfully obvious that we outside the US were getting a much bigger picture of what was going down than those you inside it.
Can we relate this to Y'GIAGAM (Yo' Guess is as Good as Mine)? Maybe when you're afforded, or at least not prevented from, access to more attempts at the truth on some issues, you've got a better chance of being a bunch of better guessers about where those issues might go. Certainly, i know few outside the US who ever even suggested much good could come of Operation Iraqi Liberation (ie, OIL).
AD20051219Mon11h13m56ICTPosted by admarshall on 2005-12-19 00:15:03

Oh, just on the off-chance you might have been too rushed to notice the relevance to this thread, Seamus, or you didn't notice ThePopulist's petty fit of name-calling (still here) that surely justifies at least a reasoned retort, i post again the brief overview of ThePopulist and Vonnegut versions of "The End is Near" (next).
Remove it or leave at your leisure. I just want to really know where you stand.Posted by admarshall on 2005-12-19 00:13:54

Just got back from lunch and have to say, wow, sheamus, your choices of which posts to keep and which to cut really surprises me.
But not that much i suppose. Viva la sys-admin censor, yet another great US institution.
Either way, i saved each page as it was updated to disk and this may indeed someday make an interesting critique of one censor's judgement: those versus what not is left in this thread, including blatantly inflammatory posts from you-know-who.
That said, c'est la vie. I had fun -- and had actually hoped i'd helped others have a bit more of the same. But i guess maybe not. But, again, i can't say i too was trying to serve the lowest common denominator.
I'll only add this: i challenge you, seamus, or anyone else here to clearly show how i could have possibly profited commercially from any of my posts. My own web work -- which for some reason you still left references to (please remove, please) -- is purely a non-profit gig.
Bon chance boys and girls.Posted by admarshall on 2005-12-19 00:04:59

Hey, Lumens, ITT has an article on Evo Morales (?).???---this guy.
A paraplegic friend of mine with constant pain would really be stoked to hear about this. He's talked about chewing coca leaves and drinking coca tea as a possible form of treatment that would be superior to the pharmaceutical drugs that assault his kidneys and liver and carry the risk of overdose. A coca poultice might even help.
Villifying benign herbal remedies to sell poison is dastardly.
South America seems to be on a roll. I admire their head on determination and willingness to get straight to the heart of matters instead of making compromises that aren't in their best interest.
(Maybe they'll elect some ostriches.)Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-18 22:09:33

YEAHH!Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-18 21:45:07

Hello forum,
I have closed several comments from admarshall that appeared to be attempted spam or form hijacking. Although several of the comments from admarshall do not appear to be spam, repeated complaints from other readers have compelled us to close these comments for the sake of an open and understandable discussion.
Thanks for your understanding.Posted by seamus on 2005-12-18 21:31:14

AdMarshall is an idiot, and this will be my last reply to one of his posts. In your retort to being accused of plying adware, you mentioned two things of interest.
1) "After two months of iMarket Research, HTML keywording and selective cross-linking to significant-other sites, we got Google, Yahoo and HotBot to list this little, laidback factory in HaNoi on their first pages of hits every time someone searched for Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-18 21:08:09

Some small hope for democracy and humanity tonight in
BOLIVIA! Viva la causa pura!
Sure to get Ms. Secretary Condi Rice's panties in a bunch.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-18 20:21:49

Danke shane for the defense mon witty hare. I bows 2 ya.
Now, if I can just get that image of old underpants under a pillow out of my head...Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-18 19:45:48

Never before in the history of ITT has a rabbit read so much without saying anything.
The Rabbit is Flabbergasted.
This thread has attracted a literal menagerie of strange and beautiful creatures. Some fine and shiny minds among them and darned if the rabbit didn't see a new kind of troll flit past..
Margey Rabbit thinks you should stop picking on Wiley, she is coherant, thoughtful and sensible as well as fun. Marge, despite an earlier little tug on the hem from Rabbit, to point out the goose like antics, has continued to be trollish towards the Witch. Sweety we do appreciate that you were indulging in an ass kissing ceremony, Thanks Clouds, and you should be free to do this if it turns you on, but as for the most of us, we are stimulated by the words of Kurt and we admire his articulacy etc, we are yet able to get by without a pair of his old underpants under our respective pillows at night.
Further, reasonable yet humble creatures that we mostly be, we do actually expect Mr Vonnegut to bother reading every discussion thread which is spawned by his wrods, that's a bit like expecting a return letter from Santa when you send him your wish list. (Sorry dear if Santa did send you a reply, Rabbit is not trying to imply anything here.)
Now Rabbit has recently been involved in dicussions about the true definition of a Troll, and whilst his definition is a bit more loose than that favoured by some of his friends, it would not seem totally out of order to point out that Marge is at least reminiscent of one.
Please don't feel unwelcome even if this is so, in fact Rabbit who is presently "Trolless", having lost his own Scorpy troll, would be honoured to have you as his personal troll if that is what you are, please make yourself at home anyway. Now what else do you do apart from tell others how to behave on a thread?
If you are not a troll and are merely suffering a bad case of PMS or something, excuse the reference to those who live under bridges, and as Wiley suggested, get over yourself.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-18 18:36:16

Albert Camus, yet another very cool dood. Thanks for the reminder LumiBeut.
:-{{=~Posted by kv-jr on 2005-12-18 17:35:24

David in Canada, i ordered my H5N1 soul food from a KFC in SaiGon -- which made it a bit cold when it got here, but still worth the experience nonetheless.
What Ground Zero in Canadada did you get your plucky birds from? (I used to hang in StRatford, Ontariario.)
:-{=~Posted by kv-jr on 2005-12-18 17:25:43

"The evil that is in the world always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence, if they lack understanding. On the whole men are more good than bad; that, however, isnPosted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-18 17:23:03

David---so feisty! Now I want some fried chicken to give me the power of the chicken. Look Ma, no terrorists!Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-18 16:16:12

Go away ad marshall ... you are abusing electrons. Not nice.Posted by David in Canada on 2005-12-18 15:55:21

KV JR,
I too am munching wunching on fried chicken (home made) from another ground zero right now.
Avian flu be damned.
Late lunch. Yummy.Posted by David in Canada on 2005-12-18 15:14:32

Admarshall is posting ads and html crap to attract search engines. Someone should remove his posts.Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-18 09:32:59

To not really answer your question admarshall, it seems counterintuitive to me that the Vietnamese would want to learn English, or French, or deal with IT consultants from the U.S. or France.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-17 23:02:19

Oh, by the by, i'm going to order some Kentucky Fried Chicken from Ground Zero Bird Flu before my siesta.
How's that for living viscerally?
kv, junior. do it now.
;-{{=~Posted by kv-jr on 2005-12-17 21:56:40

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/
If you're not familiar with Gatto, Rabbit, this might interest you. "The Ten Lesson School Teacher" is the most vindicating thing I've ever read about our public school system. It really is a social engineering racket to prang out consumers and drones.
As far as language goes, I think, in California they figured out that kids learned better through immersion than the bilingual approach.
I have to wonder if the immigrants drop out for social reasons. I've noticed a general cultural rift around here between the Mexican children (who are very well behaved, share freely, and are concerned for their siblings) and Ummericun children (with their competition and individualism).
One point in particular that Gatto makes, that I have found to be true in my own life is that it's just not that hard to teach children how to read. He estimates around 110 hours to teach a child basic literacy. (In my experience, it really helps to tell a kid that English is "crazy", then they stop trying to beat their brains out with phonics and the "rules" when the words don't obey.)
I'd like to talk about what a shame it is that we aren't taught a second language beginning in grade school, but we're talking about being illiterate in English.
Of course, our Congressmen can read and write, but it's easier for them and more lucrative to let the corporations and lobbiest draft our laws and to sign legislation without reading it.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-17 20:39:26

These infernal comment boxes here at ITT will support some HTML tags. Ya gotta watch out for breaking url lines. Just keeping it slack.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-17 20:13:18

How much of this is due to illegal immigrants?
Srill it is pretty crook. Are you sure you guys are a developed country?
Illiteracy On The
Increase In The US
About 30 million US citizens are below the basic level of education, among them, 11 million who do not know how to read and write properly in English, institutional sources reported Friday.
Seven million individuals -3.1 percent of the population- is at the lowest educational category because they are completely illiterate.
Thirteen percent of US people have barely enough literacy to sign a document, according to government research testing elementary grammar and simple arithmetic.
The National Center for Educational Statistics (CNEE) found a slightly positive change between 1992 and 2005 as far as the ability of semi-literate adults to read and understand complex phrases.
The center noted the lack of bilingual teachers in the United States, which causes a considerable increase of immigrant students leaving school before the legal age.
According to Darlene Brown, director of a program of pedagogical alternatives in Texas, between 33 and 38 percent of foreign students leave school before the legal age every year and this statistic has increased over the last 10 years.
The government is doing nothing to end this situation; on the contrary, the difficulties become greater, complained Brown.
Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-17 19:46:06

ho! ho! ho!
Irie, mon. Not a good idea to try live on the booze, mon.
But moderation in all things surely means in moderation as well. Otherwise the holiday season would be damn near intolerable.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-17 19:26:00

that must be a hoax, no?Posted by kv-jr on 2005-12-17 18:58:20

Hasn't worked for me yet. ;-{{ )Posted by kv-jr on 2005-12-17 18:56:50

admarshall;
'viva il cazzo duro' is the Italian equivalent of 'a hard man is good to find' but more self-referential.
I see I'm gonna have to get a lot more stoned and drunk to catch up with this conversation. Well, Merry Christmas!
Hope you don't interpret this as 'incorrigement', but that one was punishment enough.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-17 18:08:12

Wiley, what is wrong with you? you are making us all reach for the Rolaids.Posted by marge on 2005-12-17 15:29:19

admarshall, at least you have a reason. Please pardon me and post away.Posted by marge on 2005-12-17 15:23:02

Rocco, are you posting outdoors. There should be a name for the practice of posting to tell one or more posters that their posts are evidence that they have no life, blah, blah, blah.
What exactly do you know about the lives, values, and actions of people on this thread?
How does dismissing everyone for posting (which is communicating to others if you stop and think about it) make you socially or morally superior to all other posters, even at the very moment that you are posting?
Why the sycophantic theme that we should all live our lives according to Kurt Vonnegut?
And why do you get credit for reading all the posts, while you give no one any credit for writing the posts?
If you don't like the conversation, butt out. It's not like someone dragged you here, is it?Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-17 15:15:40

I have, to my credit, read all of your posts. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Is this what it has come to, huh? You all must live for this. A nemesis to test your sword against. A witty retort to slowly type out, the one germinating inside of you since you were left dumb and shaking from your last real confrontation.
Leftists? Hah. Radicals? Hardly. Artists? Scholars? Yeah, probably...
If you really want to follow the essential message of Vonnegut's piece, do something visceral, bestial, and kind. Those activities often take place out of doors.
Viva il cazzo duro!Posted by rocco on 2005-12-17 14:53:45

Oh, one last point Marge, since you're so briliiant and misunderstood, why don't you write a book? A lenghty article? A coherent paragraph?Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-17 14:29:28

They are waiting for all of you at Bellevue.
Are you waiting with them, deary? Have them give you a sedative.
And I am not a troll.
How Nixonesque.
I had an idea.
How did that feel?
And you all did with it what ignorant beings always do to ideas.
At least we're consistent.
as for the deck chairs rabbit referred to. That activity is wileyPosted by wileywitch on 2005-12-17 14:18:26

Admarshall -- How can you dump all this linux whatever garbage on the board? There is only so much space for comments and you are beyond the pale. At least Wiley thinks she/he is communicatingPosted by marge on 2005-12-17 09:25:37

They are waiting for all of you at Bellevue.
And I am not a troll.
I had an idea.
And you all did with it what ignorant beings always do to ideas.
as for the deck chairs rabbit referred to. That activity is wiley's
instead of writing novels of nonsense on this board, referring to Mr. Vonnegut in the third person, as if he is not even here, you might talk to him.
As is, if I were him, I wouldn't read past the first few posts. Too depressing. I would make a martini and jump out onto 2nd avenue.
Marge, aka Venus Annodomini (that knickname is for you rabbit. Thanks for reminding me of Wilde, Shaw)Posted by marge on 2005-12-17 09:15:14

FACT.
One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge--even to ourselves--that we've been so credulous.
Carl SaganPosted by Dr. Watson on 2005-12-17 02:03:37

What a fascinating catch has been drawn into the net of this article. The worthless rabbit, in his ignorance has not been much familiar with Kurt Vonnegut before, but is getting the picture that he is much admired by people a rabbit could not only empathise with but admire.
AND not a troll in sight.
But we can't have everything.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-16 23:23:33

You can't blame me for my comment, I watched Tae Guk Gi-Brotherhood of War and Star Wars III in a sitting. Add a 3:1 blend of Scapa and Lopraig and you have one entirely frustrated guesser...Still thankful for all the knowledge garnered from ITT.Posted by VikiBabu on 2005-12-16 23:21:17

Hasn't the world always been flat? I ask because I assume there has always been a struggle between the nay-sayers and the guessers (I dunno since History isn't a priority in education)
The history of the universe arises from seemingly random perturbations out of infinite permutations. The course of society it seems is just one of these permutations, maybe the right one maybe the wrong one. The only thing that I don't get is that we don't see past our actions, given all our reasoning powers and education.
I think the reason for that is we are blinded by love and fear. A recent grist article questioned how we could bear children given the rising population. One Man and his love for Earth vs. Another and his love for family. Why can't we all just get along? The repeated remarks during the climate summit that the American way of life just isn't up for debate, or the opposing ideology of forsaking everything. Behind all the guess work going on-I suppose are stronger emotions, clouding good judgement and foresight (greed an emotion too)
I'd like to think if we followed our gut instinct we might choose the wiser course. But what would we choose, our loved ones and their sanctity OR our loved ones and their sanctity?Posted by VikiBabu on 2005-12-16 22:52:02

...So, they are probably quintapartisan, if such a term exists...
It does now.
Reverse psychology---sneaky. Eventually, though, they'll have to reverse it again because, no matter what, some people always start catching on. If we're lucky they will eventually confuse themselves sufficiently to give up on social engineering and make the delicious mistake of revealing themselves as the controlling, mean-spirited, and small-minded little jerks they are. (I guess they needed hugs and got power instead. Sniff.)
Do the farting ones tapdance? They might have to do a lot of that one day (Dance! (pa-ching)).Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-16 18:13:27

Lumens, I never even thought of that one. Hope you didn't worry too much about being crucified. How awful.
My mother told me there was no Santa Claus off the bat, and regretted it later. She might have thought crucifixion was too good for me.
It always bothered me that people who couldn't read a map were absolutely certain of God's will, or claimed to be anyway. I guess I'm an infidel, but it always struck me as being a bit too cheeky and even sacreligous to claim God as one's own and knowing God's will as one was claiming to be humble. And it seemed odd to me that the church didn't give an omnicient, omnipotent power that gave us "free will" the option of changing "his" mind at any time. (And why on earth does the only God have genitals? Not a pleasant thought.)Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-16 17:52:56

The forty are composed of an equal mixture of Earthlings, Tralfamadorians, Peacekeepers, Shadows and a strange race that propel themselves about mainly by farting. (As far as can be known at this point, there are no Vulcans amongst the forty.) So, they are probably quintapartisan, if such a term exists
Several of the forty indeed are troubled by those who continue to ignore their "no thinking" signs and have proposed a reverse-psychological approach of erecting "no guessing" signs instead.Posted by GregoreSalmon on 2005-12-16 17:51:29

Hi GregoreSalmon. Would you say the forty are all Vulcans, or is this a "bipartisan" (that adorable little assumption that we're supposed to be limited to two parties) crap shoot ?
I'm thinking that even their shoddy guesswork is overshadowed by the work of their accountants.
Rat bastards.
I was in D.C. for the first time in September and was really amused by the countdowns they have on their walk-signs and how completely they were ignored. I'd guess that even in Washington you would have to enforce the 'no thinking' signs to make it stick.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-16 17:18:05

Gregore Salmon , I think the 'no thinking signs' are way over due
"What else can I say, or anybody say, but, `I love you, too'?",, lolPosted by minerva on 2005-12-16 16:26:34

The above article is obviously guesswork (although in my opinion fairly accurate) on the part of Mr. Vonnegut. I would extend what he has written even farther: in our government these days almost everything is done by guessers, and the guessers themselves are no longer informed, controlled, or even elected by educated persons but entirely by other guessers.
Though you may not have heard of me, Gregore Salmon--since my blogs have been up till now only available as filler in pornographic internet sites--my studies conclude that every bit of law in Washington is controlled by only about forty people, themselves all ignorant guessers. My research indicates that these people are currently about to implement their guessing/governing rights even more fully by placing Posted by GregoreSalmon on 2005-12-16 16:19:17

My grandfather used to attribute his card playing wins to 'skivinity'....I used to think that this was a reminant of his native tongue, Gaelic.
I've since realized that he was joking about his luck....skill and divinity are only incidental to this happy occurence, but there are so many complimentary and opposing forces at work these days that we get confused.
It becomes strange and dangerous when people we consider 'authoritative' abandon all hope , kindness and integrity and use their position to misled us, rather than sharing with us the benefit of their accumulated learning and working to find agreeable solutions to our basic problems and conflicts.
Maybe we need more skivinity.Posted by minerva on 2005-12-16 15:29:33

[Well, here i go again. This time i wrote it in TextPad before plugging it in to this horrid little virtual box. I only hope it's half as good as the last draft felt. It's time to get back to me pain-killers... ]
I came to SaiGon in 1994 reading Mr Vonnegut's "Hocus Pocus". I've re-read it 8 times since, over an uninterrupted decade-plus of self-exile in SighGone, exile from exactly the kind of grandiose guessing Mr Vonnegut decries.
But now i cannot believe my luck. I am sitting here at 04:09 in the morning in SaiGon, happily ignoring the pain returning to a freshly fractured collar-bone -- for over two hours now, due to a friggin' web-form fork-up -- and i am STILL grasping a chance, grabbing it whole, grappling with my literary inadequacies and grinding up the grist of my guts for this one farfetched chance, maybe the last i'll ever get to directly express my deepest, undying gratitude directly to good ol' "Uncle Kurt", as i've personally known him.
Dang all the other posts, both great ones and grievous. I tried to read them all but couldn't wait. Dang all the other info and disinfo and all the half-baked blogs on the Net that i'd normally be trolling for some sort of inspiration -- albeit at more sensible hours.
For this one sweet moment or more, i've an opportunity i'd never hoped for before, a chance to thank the greatest of my mentors for all his illustrious, illuminating, enlivening contributions to my world, to this world -- and "what a world" it is indeed, In These Times.
"Just be kind."
"When you're dead, you're dead."
"Make love when you can. It's good for you."
I actually made up an illustrated page of those bytes of wisdom from Mother Night and framed them while still in Hong Kong. Now, a decade later, that page sits under a pile of the few books i've still got from Canadada: the COD (Concise Oxford Dictionary); Roget's International Thesaurus; Xenophon's Oeconomicus; Montaigne's Essay's; Winokur's Writers on Writing; Slaughterhouse Five; and some others.
That page, Hocus Pocus, and all the others they've led me to have both saved my sanity and ruined my life in the same sense Johnny Depp attributes to Kerouac, Ginsberg, Hunter S Thompson, et al, for both saving and ruining his [01] -- albeit in a hugely more righteously successful way than i'll ever muster.
Mr Vonnegut, your insights, your wit, your grace of expression have let me live in peace for a decade and more among the incessantly prying eyes of millions among whom i am "color-coded".
It's been far from easy. Being from the Great White North, i'm a bit more obsessive than most Yanks or Brits about my privacy and the basics of politeness. Yet here, the yocals babble on out loud about any "foreigner" they see while gawking straight at them -- an act that could lead to one being pounded to pulp or picked up by police back in StRatford, Ontariario.
Yet i've lived largely happy on my own for the last 11 years, alone amongst the herds, not "lonesome as hell", and with no need of the 9 out of 10 of my cohorts here or back home. Just me, the Mrs, our meows and the words and pix of me mentors, of those "10 percent... merciful, no matter what..." [02]: that's been all i've really needed.
Wishing all the best to you and yours,
AD Marshall (aka Ed Ho)
HoChiMinh Linux Users Group
http://h0lug.sourceforge.net
[01] "The Night I Met Allen Ginsberg" by Johnny Depp, ROLLING STONE, 08.Jul.1999,
http://www.deppimpact.com/mags/transcripts/rollingstone_08july99.html
[02] Susan Sontag and Arthur Miller, by Kurt Vonnegut, 03.Mar.2005,
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1999/
AD.2005.Dec.17.Sat.04.35.ICTPosted by admarshall on 2005-12-16 13:43:38

Well, howdy doody, what i just wrote is already posted and it looks like what i wrote before simply disappeared.
How delightful... not.Posted by admarshall on 2005-12-16 13:02:37

Dang i hate these web forms!!! You never know what actually happens to what you wrote and can never be sure whether the Back button will actually recover what you wrote last.
As what i wrote and edited over an hour has not appeared yet, i assume ITT vets all submissions. If so, it is the first version i submitted that i want to post. That is an edit of the second version posted, which was an attempted Back-button recovery of the final version, but turned out to be an earlier draft.
I can't begin to say how disappointing this feels. It makes me want to be an anti-Net as KV Jr is himself and only reminds me too well of http://internetisshit.org/.
That ranted, thanks, sincerely to ITT for just being here.
AD Marshall,
SighGone SaiGonPosted by admarshall on 2005-12-16 13:00:27

Wiley,
When I was a kid, I always thought the silent meaning of the bloody crucifix was 'don't start acting up, or this could happen to you'. Ah, but I was so much older then...Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-16 12:13:16

The world may yet be (futher[depending on which bracket you fall into]) crucified, but like Jesus, fearless virtue, uncomprimising love and compassion, and an understanding of unity shall conceive new life; new life bearing the scars of deprivation but unburdened by the trivialities of its previous incarnation. I guess my point is best assimilated in the metaphor of the forest. Life is renewed and catalysed by fire, and the grandest of the creatures, the evergreens, ONLY reproduce in times of disaster.
Hmmm.....bopfrog, I'm not sure I'm getting your point here. If you're saying that great change can occur through disaster, I'd agree, but the "great" part is a little sketchy for me. As far as things being renewed by fire, I think that's a dangerous metaphor when a lot of Dispensationalist have political power, the world is loaded with nuclear weapons, and the president has low ratings. Something tells me that there wouldn't be a lot of ferns popping up after a nuclear fire and I'm thinking 'well that's fine for the Evergreens', but humans don't generally benefit from having their town burned down while they're in it. Sure, it leaves a heap of rubble that's easier to bulldoze than a lot buildings, but so what? That doesn't justify arson.
When you say "the grandest of the creatures" in this context my four your old mind thinks you worship Christmas trees or something. My adult self is thinking that man if ya got to be exactly like Christ and as "grand" as an evergreen to survive, then being prepared to die will make more sense than any self-improvement program.
I'll confess my bias---I think the crucifixion fetish is sick. If Jesus (it just occurred to me that we're on a first name basis) died on the cross, then it is because he was nailed to it for offending the purse-lipped priestdom. I never understood how anybody got anything but DON'T CRUCIFY PEOPLE! out of that. Don't support priests and congregations that are willing to have the nicest people murdered by the state for threatening their control over something as mundane or specious as a money changing market would be a nice follow-up.
Just one more tree point, if Evergreens do only produce in times of disaster it would be because they were doing just fine with the amount of space they had before and they are trees that can live to be hundreds of years old.
Could you do me a favor and tell me directly what your point is?Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-16 09:57:45

Semper vigilans, bopfrog
For your girlfriend, (she can change the gender around) just to keep you on your toes.)

Oh, you can read out your Bible,
You can fall down on your knees, pretty mama,
And pray to the Lord
But it ain't gonna do no good.
You're gonna need
You're gonna need my help someday
Well, if you can't quit your sinnin'
Please quit your low down ways.
Well, you can run down to the White House,
You can gaze at the Capitol Dome, pretty mama,
You can pound on the President's gate
But you oughta know by now it's gonna be too late.
You're gonna need
You're gonna need my help someday
Well, if you can't quit your sinnin'
Please quit your low down ways.
Well, you can run down to the desert,
Throw yourself on the burning sand.
You can raise up your right hand, pretty mama,
But you better understand you done lost your one good man.
You're gonna need
You're gonna need my help someday
Well, if you can't quit your sinnin'
Please quit your low down ways.
And you can hitchhike on the highway,
You can stand all alone by the side of the road.
You can try to flag a ride back home, pretty mama,
But you can't ride in my car no more.
You're gonna need
You're gonna need my help someday
Well, if you can't quit your sinnin'
Please quit your low down ways.
Oh, you can read out your Bible,
You can fall down on your knees, pretty mama,
And pray to the Lord
But it ain't gonna do no good.
You're gonna need
You're gonna need my help someday
Well, if you can't quit your sinnin'
Please quit your low down ways.
Bob Dylan
Copyright Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-16 06:13:19

I must question not the content of Mr. Vonnegut's writing but its ultiamte intent. That humanity has survived many an age of guessing cannot be disputed. My fear is that the real issue, the constructive assimilation of what we know into our cultures, gets lost in the frame of "guessers". What we know and what wish to know has always been object oriented. In fact I would go so far as to say that not only what we think but what we feel is manipulated constantly by self interest. Just to bring this down to the ground a parable from my life... My girlfriend and I have always argued about the chores. My position has often been that I do not care as much about how tidy things are, or that I don't notice when things are untidy. Well one day an essay helped to illuminate a flaw in my logic showing me that although I value 'my woman' as a person and equal, that some part of me was still relegating her to the level of maid. Here is where the lesson for me began. Having realized that I wasn't one of the good ones, aka good male feminist supporter at heart, I first revolted against this contradiction to my previous logic. This is lesson no. 1, that intellect will mold itself to self interest and having reached its evolved (much more evolved than the mean) conclusions will reject information which works to the contrary. Lesson no. 2 is that I suffered a mental proccess which attempted to reject the new light out of pure laziness. I didn't want to do the house work and knew that nothing less than discarding the new information as passing whim or fantasy would allow me to continue on as before without knowingly living as a hippocrite (which is one of the intelectual seven deadly sins). A very inspired example of this phenomenon (taken to a murderous extreme) is the inception of the white man's burden. In this case a moral-political ideology was constructed to justify that which man at that time understood to be inherently evil. When we look at the work of BartolomPosted by bopfrog on 2005-12-16 03:34:58

Does it matter to us if George W. is Posted by bopfrog on 2005-12-16 03:32:09

Just south of you, Wiley. At the foot of Mt. Shasta in a state of awe and wonder.
You're more than welcome, dear, since you inspired me.
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me.
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me.
What a long strange trip it's been."
Garcia/HunterPosted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-15 22:13:52

Didn't mean to drop your name from the post Kaw---it should read "as you and Kaw both say".Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-15 21:33:26

Thanks, Lumens. I'm in the state you think I am, and you?
It amazes me too that what you described (Lumens) can be so clear at times, and so lost at other times, as you both say. But you know it's always there even if you can't seem to recognize or shut down the maladapted defenses that get in the way and go there at will.
selfishness is above all things, the desire for some illusory future acquisition that one presently lacks.
That gives me a whole new look at selfishness. Boing.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-15 21:32:06

WOW you three are on fire tonight!LB,WW,Rabbit,such wonderful insight on the human condition.Sometimes it comes through so clearly,like tonight,other times we get caught up in the illusion,nes pas?Thank you for helping me see clearly tonight,once again. :-)Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on 2005-12-15 20:10:24

Wow, Wiley; Ditto what you said.
"Real generosity toward the future lies in giving all to the present."
Albert Camus
Living fully in the present is not, as one might imagine, easy passivity, nor an irresponsible submission to fate. In fact it is very difficult, requiring all one's powers of concentration and discrimination, imagination, resourcefulness and improvisation. It is a constantly moving target. When one profoundly understands that nothing else than the present moment exists and nothing in this moment is fixed, changeless or permanent then one can only act spontaneously out of selfless compassion, as selfishness is above all things, the desire for some illusory future acquisition that one presently lacks. Ergo, mere judgment of what is good and bad is irrelevant and unnecessary.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-15 19:42:11

Have you seen the movie? I am so amazed that they pulled it off.
ANYWAY, I don't think Rabbit is saying that what is right or wrong, or good or bad, is not important. I think he's saying that they are very important, but that we need to deal with reality more directly and deal with what is, and learn about what is instead of relying on orders from the past, and trying to force myths into service during crises in which only letting go of the past and being open to change will allow us to transform so that we can adapt, survive, and improve our lot. That might mean asking better questions and tolerating bafflement instead of insisting that "the answer" is written. Mr. Vonnegut also said the human race is too hilariously stupid too survive. But we're not that stupid! If "the answer" had already been revealed we wouldn't be here trying to figure stuff out.
You'll have to ask Mr. Vonnegut if he thinks everything will work out in the end. The "end" doesn't exactly sound like "working out" to me, but who knows? I am getting comfortable with the surety of our extinction, but every moment counts until the game is over. Suffering is real. Joy is real. I personally refuse to believe that the entire history of humanity means nothing if we do not replicate ourselves into infinity as is so often expressed in science fiction.
If life is a means to an end, then the purpose of life is to die.That's hard to work with. It seems to me to be every bit as paralyzing as trying to act as if nothing is of any consequence.
For me it does matter how we die and how we live because this may be all we've got and because it does matter. It seems to me that religions have a tendency to devolve into an institution that most explicitly demands that we justify our existence and do what someone else tells us to do to avoid being judged as "unworthy". You sort of have to have an "angry God" schtick to go with that, otherwise, you'd find yourself very lonely (when you're not being heckled).
Slaughterhouse Five is a work of art. Art and poetry are full of ambiguity, that's what makes them especially human, we are full of ambiguities and language, knowledge, and our senses are only approximate.
Vonnegut was most certainly not suggesting that nothing matters. When Billy Pilgrim said that everything just is, he was speaking from a telescopic viewpoint. Who, after all, can take the whole of humanity or even one whole human life and say that it is "bad" or "good"? How would that benefit anyone?
The purpose, I think, of enlightenment, as far as I can tell, is not to be able to dissect life and judge what is good or bad, but to be able to remove that window of judgement in order to be fully in possession of one's self and aware of others and one's surroundings in the moment (this is not to be confused with being indiscriminate). That is why mystical teachings are rooted in the present. When we are fully in the moment on a regular basis, we can learn to act in accordance with ourselves, others, and our surroundings as they are in that moment---not how we judge them to be, which is an abstraction. Harmony is a state that can't be legislated.
Does it matter to us if George W. is "good" or "bad"? He's not a pharoah, he's a president. Jesus may love a sinner, but that doesn't mean he'd vote for a heartless boob to fill a position with the command of nuclear forces because he claims to be a follower. Jesus never struck me as a chump, but I think he did fail to take sociopathy into account...
If you just watched your child disappear into a pink mist, would you be asking yourself for an abstract summary so you could figure out how to feel about it and what to do next? Of course, not.
What, to you, is a good fight? If'n you don't mind my asking.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-15 18:09:07

wileywitch;
Your posts and arguement with marge did not offend me or make me uncomfortable, but I think those posts were off topic.
As for spiritual/religious versus rational/secular, what I'm asking is does Mr. vonnegut believe that things will work out in the end. In Slaughterhouse Five, Billy Pilgrim learns that each moment is not right or wrong, good or bad, it just IS. If that is true then why fight the good fight? What if George Bush the Second is neither good nor bad, what if he just IS?
These questions do matter Ghostrabbit.
...Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-15 16:06:27

Rabbit sometimes has this thought. The "Matrix" movies, at least the theme, may be a more realistic and useful myth than the God ones we have all more or less grown up with.
We need to focus more upon our inner God, and our interconnectedness. Less upon outer Gods, who have never even been photgraphed.
There are hundreds of pictures of UFOs and yet many people are sceptical of their existence. Well why are those monkeys still believing in a God who nobody has ever photographed, even once?Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-15 15:46:13

Crikey.............
Lots of Shiny people who all admire Mr Vonnegut.
Rabbit looking up.......................hmmm.
It's all good then. Wiley is right of course. Religion did not bring about love, humanity, tolerance, self sacrifice or peace.
People have the potential to be much more than they have become. religion has acted more as a foil to seeing the Truth about life. Making up fairytales to replace ignorance. Never will religions admit the most basic thing that they don't know, and yet as science and technology have progressed (Or as we have prgressed with understanding of the universe), Religion has failed more and more to be able to give any explanation for what we observe, except for our most fundamental human social problems. In which case religions seem to be the root cause at least of the will of the people being subjugated to the will of the Masters of War.
Perhaps as a form of "therapy" for the race, we have coped with our own fears and wonderings, by means of simple religious allegories. The time has coime now, as the race is maturing, to cast away these imaginings, like a child must learn to abandon his imaginary friend, and go out alone into the big wide playground of life.
Our Gods have been made made, imaginary. They have no more answers for us than we wrote into the script in the long and dark night of our re-emergence from the last big crash.
We have been here before and unless we open our eyes, see the universe for what it is and stop filling in the spaces in our understanding with comfortable myths, we will soon be back to square one and ready to start back at the begginnning.
In ten thousand years, the Pyramids may be thought to have been the only remnants of US.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-15 15:38:56

Kurt Vonnegut remains one of the few clear voices in our world with something to say. It is wonderful to be able to count on him to put into words many of the things that people notice and think but cannot say. thank you mr. vonnegut. did anyone else notice that with one article it was an interview with kilgore trout right before he died but, in breakfast of champions... at least i think that's the book... he stated that trout died in the 80s of drinking drano? maybe he can come back from this death as well...Posted by hillary on 2005-12-15 13:09:55

Do you feel better now ThePopulist? Sorry if my sharp tongue made you uncomfortable.
What's that quote from the Crow, "'Mother' is the name for 'God' on the lips of all children". ?
The thing about secular vs. religious is that it tends to make an unnecessarily black and white distinction---for the secular person, it leaves out the spiritual world, and awe of the universe, whatever it may actually be populated with; and for the religious person it often assumes that religious people are either haloed or brain damaged. I know this is clumsy, but to get myself to the point, I guess I'd say that few people are purely religious and saintly/sheeply or purely secular rational/hedonists.
Many people are stuck on the idea that the human race was totally unscrupulous before the founding and institutionalizing of "religion". I think that's silly. I think you only have to be loved as a baby and treated with care and consideration by someone who will even put the baby's needs before their own (sacrifice) when necessary out of an appreciation of the fact that the baby is helpless and without language, and will suffer without proper care.
Growing up thinking that treating people with care is a good thing does not require a canon or an explanation for the origin of the universe, it merely requires one or more people who believe in human dignity and act accordingly.
I think it's very important to draw a distinction between tolerance and indulgence, btw.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-15 09:52:25

Industries should be allowed to do whatever they want to do: Bribe, wreck the environment just a little, fix prices, screw dumb customers, put a stop to competition and raid the Treasury in case they go broke.
ThatPosted by wileywitch on 2005-12-15 09:32:25

"Education is an admirable thing. But it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught"
"Public opinion exists only where there are no ideas"
------Oscar WildePosted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-15 08:55:31

And so on.Posted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-15 07:37:25

I just wish to point out here that KV is one of the English language's greatest ironists. Irony is peculiar in that the true understanding of the ironic statement lies somewhere outside a literal exegesis. It is as such a revolutionary challenge to the innately unimaginative conventions of accepted wisdom.
For example:
"Life is much too important to take it seriously"
Oscar Wilde
"I'm done with seeking the Truth. What I'm looking for now is a good fantasy"
Ashleigh Brilliant
When we laugh we confront and overcome our fears. That said:
"Dying is easy. Comedy is hard."
Sir Donald WolfitPosted by luminous beauty on 2005-12-15 07:26:55

Hello Rabbit,Likewise I'm sure! I enjoy reading your comments as well.I also post occassionally at Smirking chimp dot com,as well as alternet dot com.your should check out those sites as well.Smirking chimp is especially interesting(to me at least).Now back to the artical related posts....Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on 2005-12-15 07:06:27

On my previous comments and wiley's response.
Humor is a good way to defuse conflict when discussing deadly serious matters. KV recognizes this, as did Twain. If people on opposite sides of the table in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kashmir, Palestine, Sri Lanka and other places had found common ground in the dark humor of their predicament, how much closer to resolution do you think they would be by now?Posted by scrambledyegg on 2005-12-15 06:48:23

By the way.
HI there Kaw Valley Kid.
Always great to see you in town.
...............................^^......................................Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-15 02:40:36

Oh and by the way.
Rabbit has a few favorite minds, and GBS sure is high up that list.
George Bernard Shaw.
Oscar Wilde.
Richard Bach.
Education does not happen in the presence of teachers all the time, in fact the best for Rabbit has come from open minded curiosity applied to life. As such, Rabbit does not feel undereducated, on the contrary he is typically over par and has a fairly lonely existence regarding mental stimulation. This isn't to say there are not times, often in fact, when Rabbit's own limitations become apparent to him, there are so many clever and educated people in the world, we have some prime examples on this site.
Even our trolls are smarter than the average.
Like The Populist said, we are responsible for our own destinies. Luck has nothing to do with any of this. the situation we are in, the Lunatics leading the Blind, and the few with any sight being relegated to the periphery.
Hell, .......WE,........ US..........You,sensible reasoned people, me a sensible and reasoned rabbit, WE are the ones popularly accepted as being the crazies. Conspiracy theorists, dreamers, idealists, lefties........Moonbats.
The idiots who have surrendered there responsibility to inform themselves, to make life and death decisions for their own, and themselves, are responsible for their destinies, and we are responsible for our own. For Rabbit that means doing all he can to turn the tide against the insanity, whilst, preparing, mentally especially, for the time when we are going to have to jump, and start swimming.
Many will not make the other shore dears. Those who have neglected to watch the water rising, until too late, those who deny the ship is sinking, those stupid idiots who are re-arranging the deck chairs once again in a bid to make things seem alright, they are going to be in worse trouble when we hit the cold cold water dears, so pay attention, but don't despair if we cannot save the ship from sinking. We are most of us not even crew members. Just learn how to swim and get ready to do so. Keep kicking against the pricks, that may be your ticket to heaven, or at least onto the next stage of the game.
Earth and mankind is all very well for a bit of a ride, but Rabbit thinks it is high time some of us tried the next ride, this one is getting boring.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-15 02:39:31

Can't figure out if Mr Vonnegut is secular or not? Does it matter. The secular soul can as easily identify and refer to god. the difeernece is invariably only in the definition of that God. Since all "guesses" about how or what God is, are probably equally many light years distant from the real deal, Rabbit doesn't think that this then is enough to separate anyone.
There are a number of very reasoned and interesting comments here and rabbit will get back to a few things, but he sees that his favorite Warrior Witch has crossed swords with this Marge, who didn't say anything in her first post which bothered Rabbit, but her reply to Wiley seemed a bit over the top. Yet to a reasonable Rabbit, it appears as if Marge, who is clearly a feisty one despite what could have been read as defeatist language in her first post, may have felt as if Wiley, was having a poke at her, which actually Rabbit didn't see, but he can see why Marge might think so.
Now if a humble rabbit might intervene here ladies, he has a small observation to make. Wiley was I think offering encouragement to an apparently tired soul, and many of us in that lovely vintage you mention have those days dear, Rabbit is 43. She did actually refer to more subtle matters than Marge took it to mean, unless Rabbit is missing something, he counted himself, among others, as being those rooted in his tenure. hmmm, that doesn't work to good, in Aussie slang, one does not root for ones team for example unless one is a groupie. Rooting is something which rabbit's do, to lady rabbit's. Rabbit has never imagined being rooted in anything let alone his tenure, but oh well, strange language these yanks use. We'll use it.
So you see, Wiley is not exactly a worshipper of the MSM, as it appears Marge may have thought. She wasn't being mean to Marge I don't think.
Hopefully this helps understanding all round, we are all lefties around here at the moment, to use the crude descriptive of the laughably named "Right". On that note, we are of course seeing an influx of more right wing thinking folk in our circles these days, some still struggling but obviously breaking ties with the lies, and others who have made the break but retain their natural conservative tendemcies.
Neither of you two girls is one of these though.
Rabbit is a spiritual, even somewhat sorcerous, and occultically, oriented Gnostic. Oddly enough, he would probably qualify as secular in a very real sense though.
Maybe Kurt too has evolved beyond the simple question.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-15 02:22:30

I went out and bought a copy of Slaughterhouse Five today, with my last eight bucks, and I just finished reading it. There are numerous references in the book to God, Jesus, the serenity Prayer ect. After reading his essay about one's guess being as good as another, I cannot figure out if Mr. Vonnegut is secular or not.
...Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-15 00:21:42

Uhh;
This is becoming a very strange thread for the discussion of Mr. Vonnegut's essay.
...Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-15 00:18:23

Well, Marge, then I guess I haven't given youus all you wanted ME to present in MY post.
That just breaks my bleeding little, heart hon.
Do you take, like special classes to learn how to sum up an entire personality with one post. Or is this just some gift you have? Maybe you could put that to work for the betterment of mankind.
Miraculously, enough, I don't even care what it is I was supposed to get in your mind.
Get over yourself.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-14 18:52:42

A postscript about getting off one's a--ses. We have been complaining about the tenured press here and on moveon.org and just about everywhere, and apparently, you can't take hearing those complaints except from, hey, the tenured press? Really, you owe a retraction.Posted by marge on 2005-12-14 14:01:54

Wiley, what on earth are you talking about? Contrary to be contrary is precisely all you have presented us in your post.
Give me a break. Pure nonsense. Absolutely pure nonsense.
You are a superstar in Plato's cave, no doubt, which gave you the nerve and confidence to parade out here with that gut hanging out.
the only thing I am hanging onto kiddo, is myself. You didn't get it kiddo, you didn't get the shadows of it eitherPosted by marge on 2005-12-14 13:59:26

Responding to M Goodwin;
Yes, there is guesswork and bad luck involved in natural disasters like hurricane Katrina. But I still stand by my statement that we are victims of bad policy, not bad luck. The war in Iraq, our trade and budget deficits, the corruption of Bush Inc, these are not the results of bad luck, or poor guesses.
And I would also like to mention that I am a huge fan of Mr. Kurt Vonnegut. My previous post to his essay is my first comment on this site and I hope no one found it offensive.
...Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-14 11:37:43

Marge, it isn't reasonable to ask or expect anyone else to "get off their asses for us---whoever "us" is.
Frankly, I donPosted by wileywitch on 2005-12-14 10:28:34

Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. is only one of the most wonderful people on the planet...and a long-lime hero of mine. I read his books with awe and astonishment and heartfelt appreciation. His eyes see clearly through obfuscation, spin and outright balderdash. I am not the least bit surprised that he cannot abide the escapades of our current, blighted administration any more than I can.
I would indeed be surprised if it were otherwise...Posted by Angel Of Mercy on 2005-12-14 09:34:20

I love Kurt Vonnegut's voice, and I do not expect him to humor or entertain me. He's always been serious, even when he's joking. Same with Twain.
Humans have always had to explain things to themselves to keep from going crazy with the brains ability to concoct an infinite number of possibilities.
We can't test them all.
This fear of infinite possibilities has led to some very frightening situations such as enough missiles with enough warheads to blow up the planet scores of times on hair trigger alert.
I think what is made from fear is most likely to be frightening. That seems unfair, since sp much that is made from love is likely to be a mess as well.
At least, we live in interesting times.Posted by wileywitch on 2005-12-14 09:09:48

I have great respect for KV, having read a lot of the things he has published over the years and finding them to be, for the most part, well-written, sane and funny.
But it must be hard to find any humor in this, because it's so very serious: the fallout from the bad guesses being made now will echo, distort, intensify and riccochet around our world for generations.
Anyone who sees even a fraction of the bigger picture -- there are other people in this thing, too -- understands this. Anyone with even an atrophied ability to self-reflect sees that an incorrect guess is an opportunity to learn.
But that's the problem, isn't it? The people who have taken control of the United States -- some above-board and legally, others not -- have cropped the big picture down to their own self-interests and bought a magic mirror that only reflects complements. That there is something or someone else out there is really beyond their imaginations, and unfortunately that's what a good guesser needs in addition to solid facts -- a good imagination.Posted by scrambledyegg on 2005-12-14 08:27:52

Regarding ThePopulist's comment 'We do in fact control our destiny, and we can manage our secular affairs precisely because it has nothing to do with Posted by m goodwin on 2005-12-14 03:47:02

I guess free market automatic justice has indicted us both, or convicted us Vikibabu.
Don't count on this site to save us though. Everyone here is tenured and not getting off their asses soon for us. even if George Soros pays them to.
Best wishes Viki. You too Mr. V. -- P&P MargePosted by marge on 2005-12-13 21:38:06

I'm 25, underwater and I'm holding my breath. I'm glad I found this site and others.Posted by VikiBabu on 2005-12-13 20:56:33

Frankly, I don't know how you find the energy to live Mr. V. I am 41 and can barely take it anymore. I'm drowning. What's your secret? --- P&P, MargePosted by marge on 2005-12-13 17:31:00

actually,Bu$h has never been elected.First he was selected by the supreme court(without the popular vote).Then here was left in power by a fraudulent election,where many would be voters were disinfranchised.not to mention the computerised "vote swap" done by Diebold.Strange how the exit polls didn't match the votes...Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on 2005-12-13 15:51:08

I disagree;
Mr. Vonnegut states that all of histories guessers "gave us the illusion that bad luck and good luck were understandable and could somehow be dealt with intelligently and effectively". But there is no illusion. We do in fact control our destiny, and we can manage our secular affairs precisely because it has nothing to do with "luck".
Here's an example: If George Bush the Second decides to cut taxes for the rich, and lie to persuade the American people to invade Iraq, the following will happen: Deficits will rise because tax revenues have declined and wars cost money. The native population will resist our occupation and if they do not possess the military power to defeat us openly they will resort to guerrilla warfare.
It's very simple really, and "luck" has nothing to do with it. The American people are not the vicitms of bad luck, but bad policy. And I would argue that the American people are not victims at all since they elected, then re-elected, that dizzy scumbag.
Where I agree with Mr. Vonnegut is his assumption that individuals are responsible for educating themselves and making up their own minds. If we do this, we can make choices, not guesses.
The Populist
http://thepopulist.typepad.com/essays/
...Posted by ThePopulist on 2005-12-13 15:40:00

I really feel outnumbered, especially during christmas when they all come out to shop at WalMart. Lets see, quick math, last team 17 people, 5 were informed, 1 vegan...umm 1 out 3.
When I think of this article, I feel like its attached to the War on Iraq plan. Its like random morons stepping up, entering a guess and spinning the slots, except they always win.
Considering the people in charge are morons, what about the people on the ground? Well, I think Canada will vote Liberal again, without even THINKING, maybe even a majority government this time? The prized method for voting, check daily newspaper for predicted winner and place the winning bet...morons.Posted by VikiBabu on 2005-12-13 07:46:01

Guesser?
Rabbit see's no need to change the current label, Morons.
Morons, Guessers whatever you call them they don't seem to be outnumbering us by 10 to 1, but maybe Rabbit is lucky, meeting about 50% Informed or at least open minded people in his daily travels, on the web and during his working week.
Of course informed guessing is sometimes necessary, but these guys in Washington are indeed Snake Oil salesmen.Posted by GhostRabbit on 2005-12-13 05:51:13

Oh crap, I almost forgot to subscribe to...
hehehehehehe, sorry gang, you'll have to fill in that blank yourselves...Posted by Kuya on 2005-12-12 19:58:58

Yeah OK, so what to do?
Rebel.
Raise your kids to believe that knowledge is better than popularity. Never say "follow your heart, not your head", and dispute those who do say that nonsense. Boycott all fortune-tellers, psychic "friends", and faith-healing hucksters, and chide those who employ these charlatans. Cultivate a BS-detector in your mind, and speak up when it's triggered.
Read more than you watch TV. Cancel subscriptions for those publications that you know are admixing too much BS into the info they deliver. Question your own presumptions and loyalties. Check other people's opinions and see whether they offer data to back up their views. Be a bit skeptical.
Learn how statistics, quotes out of context, and sloganeering can be used to trick people. Resolve to put facts and confirmable data at a higher value than factional loyalty. Weed out knee-jerk political correctness, whether leftish, rightish, globalish, or anti-whatever-ish. Don't give the people who are supposedly on your side the automatic benefit of the doubt. Don't ascribe to those people in the other faction the automatic detriment of the doubt.
Hesitate to trust!
Use your f'n head!
Isn't all that a rebellion? I suggest that it is. It's a rebellion against easy, comforting ways of knowing things in favor of looking for the fuller, more detailed picture. Talk about a culture war!! Beware! The soft-heads and non-thinkers will take no prisoners, so make it a point to protect yourself and your kids. Take Vonnegut's implied advice and don't imagine yourself as ever being finished learning. Be elitist when it comes to your own intellectual power. Let the mental egalitarians occupy themselves with mind numbing entertainments and NEVER let them get any power over you.
Your biggest dilemma will be whether or not to exploit them for your own profit and fun. Oh yes, and how to evade their efforts to make you into a pudding-head too without provoking their collective wrath. That will be a dilemma too.
Excuse me, I have to go get the wrinkles in my palm interpreted, right after I get my weekly tarot reading. Then I need to vote the straight party ticket and make out that check to the TV ministry of my choice. Once that's done, I'll have time to write my new book, "The Quick And Easy Way To Financial Success." It's about how to write a self-help book and get wickedly rich in the process.Posted by Kuya on 2005-12-12 19:54:36

Indeed. And as observed in "The Rise of Professional Journalism", our toothless media are unable, even if qualified, to challenge the official guesses. That would be too partisan. Thus it becomes a messaging game of volume and frequency. The guesser with the bulliest pulpit wins.Posted by ChiBN on 2005-12-12 16:21:41

I guess Kurt is right.Sad,isn't it?Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on 2005-12-12 15:30:05