I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose? How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.

Metta

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' (Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose? How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.

Metta

Are you referring to shikantaza?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' (Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

So if I understand it correctly, Moggallana attained nibbana while in this state?

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' (Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Modus.Ponens wrote:I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.

Well, it is not to try to have no thoughts; it is, rather, not to be fixed on any one thing. You cannot have concentration or consciousness with an object, but the object can changed very, very rapidly. It is what is called moment-to-moment concentration or bare attention in vipassana practice.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

Modus.Ponens wrote:I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.

No, it isn't about having no thoughts. It is remaining anchored in the reality of the present moment, yet with an open, allowing awareness rather than a narrow, focussed one. Phenomena (including thoughts) are allowed to appear, change and disappear, without identification.

"The signless concentration of heart." sounds much the same. Mahamudra and Dzogchen meditation is similar too.

So the method to get there is to just trying remain fully aware of what's happening? I thought the method to get there was to try to have no thoughts because in karate dojos, the instructions for meditation are these: to try to have no thoughts.

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' (Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Modus.Ponens wrote:So the method to get there is to just trying remain fully aware of what's happening? I thought the method to get there was to try to have no thoughts because in karate dojos, the instructions for meditation are these: to try to have no thoughts.

No, but the idea that Zen is about 'having no thoughts' is a popular myth. Thoughts come and go, without being suppressed or chased.

This style of practice is quite common these days in the insight meditation and theravada communities, particularly in the West.

However the phrase "concentration without object" is a bit of an oxymoron, Awareness is a better term.

“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose?

As in the link bodom gave "Animitto Sutta: The Signless" the goal is "great super-knowledge".

How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.

Yes, I agree. As the sutta stated the object is droped after reaching the "sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception".

Concentration without an object (signless concentration) in Theravada is very different from the "bare attention" or mindfulness or trying to remain fully aware of what's happening (these are known in Theravada, too, of course). It is neither insight with concentration on a stable object (such as breath) nor insight with an object changing from moment to moment (momentary concentration as in Mahasi method).

Freawaru wrote:Concentration without an object (signless concentration) in Theravada is very different from the "bare attention" or mindfulness or trying to remain fully aware of what's happening (these are known in Theravada, too, of course). It is neither insight with concentration on a stable object (such as breath) nor insight with an object changing from moment to moment (momentary concentration as in Mahasi method).

So what IS it then? BTW, shikantaza is also 'neither insight with concentration on a stable object (such as breath) nor insight with an object changing from moment to moment'.

in zen (soto-shu) we were taught not to have no thoughts, but rather to just not attach to thoughts, we called it "opening the hand of thought". this is essentially the same as some vipassana meditation techniques i've seen taught in some of the thai traditions. i wouldn't pay too much thought to anything a karate teacher says.

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Hey call me slow or heedless, but i just actually read the linked sutta. Are there other possible translations for the pali word for heart? The sutta reminds me of concentration on the Witness or awareness, sort of like koan or huatou practice. Is pali one of those languages where heart can also be translated as self or mind or soul? Would that be considered signless concentration?

Last edited by m0rl0ck on Sat May 29, 2010 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

Hmm, in that case, i can hardly think of a better description of some huatou or koan practice than the linked doc.

"And then, friends, the Blessed One came to me by his powers[6] and said: 'Moggallaana, Moggallaana, Brahman,[7] do not slacken off in the signless concentration, make your mind steady, make the mind one-pointed, concentrate your mind in the signless concentration!'

I guess the direct sudden path is not new if the buddha was teaching a non developmental path even then.

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig