Even though the word "Subject" is Singular, The "Subject" oft times includes Many secondary "subjects" within the Primary subject.

Such is the case with Prophetic Revelation. A Primary Subject is Exposed or Revealed Among many Subjects of lesser Prominence.As Music in a choir is heard, it is made beautiful by the many "Properly Controlled" voices joined. As poetry is read, it is made beautiful and complete by the Rhythm of many Parts that Speak to the "Primary Subject".

Yet, the Word of Almighty God is Infinitely More Beautiful, and More Complete than Glorious Music or Splendid Poetry.

Speaking of Poetry, and Rhythm, yes, here is a discussion on Chiastic Structure. It's funny, I stumbled upon something that was new to me, and I thought it new actually.....but it wasn't and isn't.When I began to look for possible other opinions (via internet search) that reflected the same thing I had newly observed, it quickly became very plain to me that I was just "Late to the Party" so to speak.

Ok, here's the thing I thought new that actually isn't.

Revelation chapter 12................Yep..............It's a Chiasm.

Just to shorten what I had originally intended to put into this thread, I will add a link for the sake of examining the Chiasitc Pattern of the Entire Book of Revelation.http://www.666beast.net/chiastic.htm

And a short snipit of The pattern of Revelation 12 from that site......

There are so many things to this that we should discuss.......so much I put to notes before seeing it on this site that I would like to add in little by little...I just couldn't type it all and put a form to it in a simple way.

As anybody joins in, i hope to add details along each step of the structure, verse by verse. The goal is to explain how and why there is something Very Valuable in Discovering what God has Determined as the "Primary Subject" of Prophetic Revelation.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God.Parenthetical remarks added are mine.

This is not being shown to discuss each part or verify the accuracy of each individual chiasm in themselves. it is only to show that there remains clear an solid evidence of Chiastic Patterns throughout Daniel, each and every chapter. the same can be seen and plenty of evidence can be provided to show these kinds of patterns in the Entire Book of Revelation also.

So then....what can this mean in the General View of these Patterns? Why do thy exist? What did/does God Intend for us to Notice, to SEE in them?

The Short answer I think is this. He wants us to Notice the Center, the Focus, the primary Subject of Prophetic Revelation. It could also be said that He wants us to Notice the Highest Point Reached in each Revelation, or the Pinnacle, the Crescendo of His Prophetic Voice.......His Prophetic Word in the Highest Place.

Christ IS the Prophetic Word.......In the Highest Place.

will add more later

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

H. Beginnings of Hebrew History In..................... Genesis 12 .................:1-3 we have the account of God's entering into a covenant with Abraham. In this He laid down His plans for blessing the entire world. This passage is the cornerstone of all prophecy. God chose Abraham and his seed to be the channel through which He will bless the world. He has given us His revelation through the descendants of Abraham, but they have not yielded to Him and allowed Him to do for the world that which He longs to accomplish for fallen humanity. But He will yet use His disobedient ancient people in bringing a blessing to the entire world.

Again, I'm not saying I'm in agreement with every thing they're laying claim to in that link. It was just that I did notice that interesting little part that I quoted above. That part caught my eye in particular while looking for an adequate description of the "Law of First Mention".

The "Law of First Mention" (hereafter LFM) is very important especially when we look to the Primary Subject of the Revelation of the Living Word of God to Mankind.

So, let's then look to that law as we Examine Revelation 12.Where is "The Woman", "Woman", First Mentioned?Genesis of course.Where is "The Seed" of "The Woman" First mentioned?Yep, Genesis again.Where is "The Serpent" First Mentioned?Yes in deed........Genesis.

Now, let's suppose that we wish to discover Who "The Woman" in Revelation Twelve represents. Should we lay aside the LFM to allow a different understanding of who she may represent?Now to be fair, this would be the "First Mention" of a "Woman" Clothed With the Sun. This does not though mean that we should discard the LFM for the "Woman" or "The Serpent/Dragon" simply because they are shown in a form As "Clothed with the Sun" or As "A Dragon Crowned".Since their Basic or Foundational Form is Easy to Perceive, they should logically and reasonably be Understood and Recognized As "The Woman" AND "The Serpent".

There is something in particular that Revelation Twelve is Revealing to us as Christians, and to All Mankind.It is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"..............'The SEED of The Woman".

The Highest Revelation to Mankind itself, the Center of it , as I said before, Is Jesus Christ!

He is the Promised Word of God.

He is Our promised Victory over Death and the Serpent's Seed

And Revelation 12.......The Center of the Revelation of Jesus Christ......is the Prophetic Vehicle that God has Chosen to Reveal to us, and to Reveal to humanity, the Redemption Promise, and the Confirmation OF That Promise, in Very Few Glorious Verses.

more later as time permits

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

shorttribber wrote: He is Our promised Victory over Death and the Serpent's Seed And Revelation 12.......The Center of the Revelation of Jesus Christ......is the Prophetic Vehicle that God has Chosen to Reveal to us, and to Reveal to humanity, the Redemption Promise, and the Confirmation OF That Promise, in Very Few Glorious Verses.

Going back to this thread...I wanted to point to this quotation above again.

Victory over the Enemy...by the Will of God...What is SEEN Accomplished IN Heaven (From the FIRST Promise of the SEED of The Woman to Have Victory over the Dragon and his Seed) Will Also BE DONE Literally On Earth.

Revelation Twelve is the Portrayal of the Redemption Promise from the garden until the Seed of the Woman Overcomes their Common Enemy (The Dragon and His seed) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of THEIR (The Lamb{Christ} AND The Family of God's Testimony).THEIR COMMON Testimony/Covenant/ Communion WITH Truth, Communion, With Christ's Power, THEIR Communion WITH Deliverance/Salvation/THEIR Participation WITH Christ BY His Spirit.

This is the Picture of PERFECT Communion With God. This is the Picture and Fulfillment of Eph 4 .........a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing........in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ........

This is a Picture of the Time that the Family of God WILL BE FREE from the Fear of Death.....The WHOLE Body of Christ, In Perfect Communion, Overcoming...WORLDWIDE! EVERY Single Christian ON Earth. Every Single One, In Unity, Power, And Real Genuine Love and Faith.

Strengthened/CONFIRMED Until THE DAY of Christ, As ONE, One Body, One Bread, One Lump.ONE IN Communion WITH God.....To Overcome All Wickedness, this Wicked World, and Everything In it!1 Cor 18 Who shall also.........confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless....... in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

and

To overcome even Our Own Divisions... and God ALONE Will Do It BY His Spirit.

But "OH", you might Say," You are taking 1 Cor 1:8 out of CONTEXT, Paul was addressing only those of the Corinthian Church when he said that!".

Really...let's see then....Let's take a Look at a few Key Words...and how they Compare with Eph 4:13 and Rev 12:11.

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end,.......................................... that ..................................ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship/Communion of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I think these texts show they Are related.....Intricately related, and they show What God Will Do, to bring us to Unity by His Power......BEFORE Christ returns

The "Confirmation of The Covenant" ON EARTH Part Two!

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

What a great post, and may God help me do my own part in this non division.....as I am certain that because as I thinketh I say, I am wrong and doing wrong...because I do not thinketh fully within the mind of God, but within my own more often. In these verses, it is by His Spirit that He will teach a thing.....let me listen for that in my own.

Just want to restart this thread to mention something I believe the Lord revealed to me a couple mornings ago.

We are going to be "Blessed" with Prophetic Knowledge, Unity and Power when the Events of Daniel 12 unfold.

The reason we all kind of grasp only portions of prophecy at present is Because the Real Time actual End Time Events are "Sealed Up".Though they are indeed "Sealed Up", it will not Always be so. We have Other prophetic writings that are very mysterious and sealed also Presently in the Revelation of John. Here's the part I believe the Lord showed me though.....Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Notice the Three parts of the above verse....and keep in mind what is written in Daniel 12 (Regarding End Time Events "As Sealed Up" even up until the Great Trib {final 3.5years}).

First...there is a Blessing regarding the "Reading" of the Things written in the Revelation to John.Second....there is a Blessing regarding the "Hearing" of the Things written in the Revelation to John.Third......there is a Blessing regarding the "Keeping" of the Things written in the Revelation to John.

Now we know in part...1 Cor 139 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Compare now.....Eph 411 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Until a Certain Scroll is UNSEALED, and it Will Eventually BE UNSEALED , we will Remain in Disunity and have only Knowledge In Part.

But when the Seventh Seal Opens Eph 4 will Occur in Real Time and We WILL Do and Keep the "Things" Written in the Revelation of John.

Rev 1210 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.......................17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Math 53 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Last Sunday I was listening to the preacher ramble on about the scriptures as written in 1 Peter 4:12-19 and what caught my ear was the highlighted portion in the passage quoted below: -

1 Peter 4:12-19: - 12 Dear friends, do not be astonished that a trial by fire is occurring among you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice in the degree that you have shared in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice and be glad. 14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory, who is the Spirit of God, rests on you. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or thief or criminal or as a troublemaker. 16 But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear such a name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God. And if it starts with us, what will be the fate of those who are disobedient to the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous are barely saved, what will become of the ungodly and sinners? 19 So then let those who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful Creator as they do good. (from The NET Bible®)

The preacher presented what he remembered being taught at the Theological College during his training to become a Pastor of a church. It was the "accepted" teaching back over 20 years ago but in my spirit it did not ring true.

What does this really mean: -"17 For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God."

If the judgement begins "starting with the house of God," who or what from the house of God is being judged and where is the house of God?

Daniel 12 talks about the judgement of mankind, so what signs is there for when God begins the judgement process within His own house?

Jay wrote:What does this really mean: -"17 For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God."

If the judgement begins "starting with the house of God," who or what from the house of God is being judged and where is the house of God?

It is my opinion that the Apostle Paul has the answer to your question in 1 Cor 11. I give it for your consideration.

The Lord's Supper

1Co 11:17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse.1Co 11:18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,1Co 11:19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.1Co 11:20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat.1Co 11:21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk.1Co 11:22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,1Co 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."1Co 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.1Co 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.1Co 11:28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.1Co 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.1Co 11:33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another—1Co 11:34 if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home—so that when you come together it will not be for judgment. About the other things I will give directions when I come.

Paul encourages the Church of God to come together around the table of the Lord in a proper manner. Part of that includes our personal examination of our own position before God. It is better to recognize our own errors and faults and bring them to the Lord, than it is for Him to have to condemn us for our lack of discernment.

His statement in v 31 is a direct answer to your question:

If we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.

or as the BBE puts it:

(BBE) But if we were true judges of ourselves, punishment would not come on us.

When judgement begins starting at the house of God, it begins in the Church for the simple reason that the Church is the only body or entity which places themselves under the headship of Jesus Christ.

Thanks Ready1, your post was the "learned understanding" which the preacher used to explained 1 Peter 4:17 to the congregation but my spirit did not endorse that understanding.

Yes, with respect to 1 Cor 11:17-34, my spirit agrees with yours and his explanation but 1 Cor 11:17-34 does not explain how 1 Peter 4:147 can be understood with respect that the Judgement first begins within God's house.

Perhaps if we consider Revelation 20 we can see that the judgement first begins in God's house because we are told that Satan is thrown out of heaven, i.e. "the house of God" at that point in time, and is thrown down to the earth where he is placed in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years to await his punishment. At the end of the 1,000 years, the bottomless pit is unlocked and he then goes out to make war against the Saints and God when fire will come down from heaven and consume them and Satan is then thrown into the Lake of Fire to join the recently captured beast and false prophet who also had been dispatched into the Lake of Fire. After this, all of mankind is judged, some to everlasting life while other will be consumed in the Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 66:17-24: - 17 "As for those who consecrate and ritually purify themselves so they can follow their leader and worship in the sacred orchards, those who eat the flesh of pigs and other disgusting creatures, like mice - they will all be destroyed together," says the Lord. 18 "I hate their deeds and thoughts! So I am coming to gather all the nations and ethnic groups; they will come and witness my splendor. 19 I will perform a mighty act among them and then send some of those who remain to the nations - to Tarshish, Pul, Lud (known for its archers), Tubal, Javan, and to the distant coastlands that have not heard about me or seen my splendor. They will tell the nations of my splendor. 20 They will bring back all your countrymen from all the nations as an offering to the Lord. They will bring them on horses, in chariots, in wagons, on mules, and on camels to my holy hill Jerusalem," says the Lord, "just as the Israelites bring offerings to the Lord's temple in ritually pure containers. 21 And I will choose some of them as priests and Levites," says the Lord. 22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth I am about to make will remain standing before me," says the Lord, "so your descendants and your name will remain. 23 From one month to the next and from one Sabbath to the next, all people will come to worship me," says the Lord. 24 "They will go out and observe the corpses of those who rebelled against me, for the maggots that eat them will not die, and the fire that consumes them will not die out. All people will find the sight abhorrent." (The NET Bible®)

Jay Ross wrote:.................1 Cor 11:17-34 does not explain how 1 Peter 4:147 can be understood with respect that the Judgement first begins within God's house.

Perhaps if we consider Revelation 20 we can see that the judgement first begins in God's house because we are told that Satan is thrown out of heaven, i.e. "the house of God" at that point in time, and is thrown down to the earth where he is placed in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years to await his punishment.

In the quote above Jay I know you are answering Ready 1. How is it that you are making the association between "the house of God" and "Heaven" in the revelation of John? First, satan is seen as "Cast Out of Heaven" in Rev 12, not Rev 20. Did you just mix up the chapters on that part? Either way, how can you understand "the house of God" as referring to "heaven" when comparing the texts Anywhere in the Revelation of John, to 1 Peter 4:12-19?

Here is the Ref in 1 Peter....1Peter 417 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Based on the Clear Meaning Given above regarding the "House of God", how can you understand that The House mentioned by Peter should be comprehended as "Heaven"?

We are clearly told in the text that "the House of God" refers to "Believers/Us"

Jay Ross wrote:If the judgement begins "starting with the house of God," who or what from the house of God is being judged and where is the house of God?

this is answered above

Jay Ross wrote:Daniel 12 talks about the judgement of mankind, so what signs is there for when God begins the judgement process within His own house?

The Daniel 12 ref to judgment on the wicked is that, judgment upon the wicked. There is a Judgment For the Righteous during that time, but not Against the Righteous/Believers.

Now let me repeat just one part of your question...

Jay Ross wrote:so what signs is there for when God begins the judgement process within His own house?

That has Already Begun....a couple thousand years ago....17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,.............

It Already began Jay...Peter Clearly said that it had.

Now, since it already has began, I can tell you the "Sign" of When it did Begin.It began with the Preparatory Preaching of John the Baptist and Confirmed By Christ.

Blessing and Cursing was the Judgment For and Against "The House of God" THEN. For the Righteous, and Against the Rebellious.

more on this later......

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

You are right, we are told in Rev 12 that Satan is first thrown out of heaven down to the earth and then we are told that Satan was thrown down to the earth with his "angles," after which John hears spoken in heaven, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God." Now Revelation 20 picks up from this point at the end of Rev 12:12 and we are told that Satan is locked up in the bottomless pit for many days to await his time of final judgement. Then Revelation 12:13ff provides more information about the events occurring on the face of the earth when the bottomless pit is unlocked for the final little while period of time. Revelation 19 also gives a different view of the events concerning the everlasting Dominion of Christ that he is to be given in our near future. It also speaks of Christ going against the four facetted beast of Daniel 7:19ff and the false prophet/the little horn and his throwing of them into the Lake of fire at the end of the little while period after the 1,000 year interval when they are locked up in the bottomless pit. (Isaiah 24:21-22)

Now you/scriptures (see note 1 below) have told us that Satan is thrown out of heaven, which is presently God's household. We, at this present time, have no "physical" access to heaven/God's household until the time that the righteous receive their inheritance from the Father, Himself, however those who are presently righteous, can come into God's presence, spiritually, through prayer.

shorttribber wrote:<snip>

Either way, how can you understand "the house of God" as referring to "heaven" when comparing the texts Anywhere in the Revelation of John, to 1 Peter 4:12-19?

Here is the Ref in 1 Peter....1Peter 417 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Based on the Clear Meaning Given above regarding the "House of God", how can you understand that The House mentioned by Peter should be comprehended as "Heaven"?

We are clearly told in the text that "the House of God" refers to "Believers/Us"

The Greek word used in I Peter 4:17 is the Greek Word οἴκου which is based on the Greek Root G:3624. The Greek Word οἴκου is found 12 times in the New Testament if the following verses: - Matthew 10:6, 15:24, Luke 1:27, 2:4, 11:51, John 2:17, Acts 19:16, 1 Timothy 3:4, 3:5, Hebrews 3:3, 11:7, 1 Peter 4:17 and the context it is found in each case is that of a person's house or household. The plural variation of οἴκου is οἴκους and it is found 4 times in the New Testament and it is used in the context of houses or households.

God's present household is found in Heaven and we have no access at this time to it.

The last portion of 1 Peter 4:17b is a rhetorical question, because if the judgement first starts with us, then our hope in Christ is not Judged as being fully acceptable first, and our attempts at righteousness will not be judged as being righteous and we will be condemned along with those who do not obey the Gospel of God.

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:If the judgement begins "starting with the house of God," who or what from the house of God is being judged and where is the house of God?

this is answered above

Your presentation is the same as the preacher I was listening to and Ready1 and I am not sure in my spirit, that this understanding is right.

shorttribber wrote:<snip>

Now let me repeat just one part of your question...

Jay Ross wrote:so what signs is there for when God begins the judgement process within His own house?

That has Already Begun....a couple thousand years ago....17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,.............

It Already began Jay...Peter Clearly said that it had.

Now, since it already has began, I can tell you the "Sign" of When it did Begin.It began with the Preparatory Preaching of John the Baptist and Confirmed By Christ.

Blessing and Cursing was the Judgment For and Against "The House of God" THEN. For the Righteous, and Against the Rebellious.

more on this later......

ST, your answer here is confusing, in that Christ came to show us that our redemption is now possible through Him, which I have no argument with, but His preaching did not herald in the time of Judgement of God's house. That in my view is still to occur in our near future when the judgement process of God's house begins and it ends when all of humanity is brought before the judgement seat.

Shalom

Note 1. Edited to reflect that I was referring to scripture, and not ST with my use of the word "you." Apologies

Jay Ross wrote:Now you have told us that Satan is thrown out of heaven, which is presently God's household.

Before I read or answer the rest of your post, I must mention that I have not said that heaven is presently God's "Household".Just stating this plainly here so there is no confusion regarding what I have actually said.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Jay Ross wrote:The Greek word used in I Peter 4:17 is the Greek Word οἴκου which is based on the Greek Root G:3624. The Greek Word οἴκου is found 12 times in the New Testament if the following verses: - Matthew 10:6, 15:24, Luke 1:27, 2:4, 11:51, John 2:17, Acts 19:16, 1 Timothy 3:4, 3:5, Hebrews 3:3, 11:7, 1 Peter 4:17 and the context it is found in each case is that of a person's house or household. The plural variation of οἴκου is οἴκους and it is found 4 times in the New Testament and it is used in the context of houses or households.

This same word is used when speaking of the "House" of Israel.Clearly not a Literal dwelling place , But a Household.

Jay Ross wrote:The last portion of 1 Peter 4:17b is a rhetorical question, because if the judgement first starts with us, then our hope in Christ is not Judged as being fully acceptable first, and our attempts at righteousness will not be judged as being righteous and we will be condemned along with those who do not obey the Gospel of God.

I'm unable to process what you've just said in this case....you may need to explain what you're saying more clearly or differently for me. I apologize for not understanding your meaning.

Jay Ross wrote:Christ came to show us that our redemption is now possible through Him, which I have no argument with, but His preaching did not herald in the time of Judgement of God's house.

His ministry did indeed bring Judgment and Mercy both.

Just think that one over some brother.

more later

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Jay Ross wrote:The Greek word used in I Peter 4:17 is the Greek Word οἴκου which is based on the Greek Root G:3624. The Greek Word οἴκου is found 12 times in the New Testament if the following verses: - Matthew 10:6, 15:24, Luke 1:27, 2:4, 11:51, John 2:17, Acts 19:16, 1 Timothy 3:4, 3:5, Hebrews 3:3, 11:7, 1 Peter 4:17 and the context it is found in each case is that of a person's house or household. The plural variation of οἴκου is οἴκους and it is found 4 times in the New Testament and it is used in the context of houses or households.

This same word is used when speaking of the "House" of Israel.Clearly not a Literal dwelling place , But a Household.

I agree that it is an expression found in English Translations of the New Testament and the Greek root G:3624 is embedded in 9 Greek words. The 12 reference I provided are of a house or household, the intent of the meaning is fairly close in my understanding from their respective usage.

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:The last portion of 1 Peter 4:17b is a rhetorical question, because if the judgement first starts with us, then our hope in Christ is not Judged as being fully acceptable first, and our attempts at righteousness will not be judged as being righteous and we will be condemned along with those who do not obey the Gospel of God.

I'm unable to process what you've just said in this case....you may need to explain what you're saying more clearly or differently for me. I apologize for not understanding your meaning.

Jay Ross wrote:Christ came to show us that our redemption is now possible through Him, which I have no argument with, but His preaching did not herald in the time of Judgement of God's house.

His ministry did indeed bring Judgment and Mercy both.

You may need to expand with Gospel references to demonstrate this last statement as I am not understanding your intent of your post.

Jay Ross wrote:Jay Ross wrote:Christ came to show us that our redemption is now possible through Him, which I have no argument with, but His preaching did not herald in the time of Judgement of God's house. ST wrote: His ministry did indeed bring Judgment and Mercy both.Jay wrote: You may need to expand with Gospel references to demonstrate this last statement as I am not understanding your intent of your post.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, That they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

and....Math 2323 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

You/Ye?The House of Israel/The House of God/ left Desolate..until Repentance.

Christ brought, and will further bring Judgment for the Rebellious, and Mercy to the Repentant

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Luke 418 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Jer 34:13 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; I made a covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondmen, saying,14 At the end of seven years let ye go every man his brother an Hebrew, which hath been sold unto thee; and when he hath served thee six years, thou shalt let him go free from thee: but your fathers hearkened not unto me, neither inclined their ear.15 And ye were now turned, and had done right in my sight, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbour; and ye had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name:16But ye turned and polluted my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom ye had set at liberty at their pleasure, to return, and brought them into subjection, to be unto you for servants and for handmaids.17 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour:behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the LORD, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.

18 And I will give the men that have transgressed my covenant, which have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me, when they cut the calf in twain, and passed between the parts thereof,19 The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, which passed between the parts of the calf;20 I will even give them into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth.

.......Now, to bring us back to the Subject of This Prophecy and Revelation......Is that Subject not Obedience to God and His Mighty Messenger of The Covenant?

The Messenger of Judgment and Mercy is Christ.

The Messenger of the Kingdom of God, is Christ.

The Messenger to John in Revelation, is Christ.

The Promised SEED is the victorious Mighty Messenger Who gives Us The Kingdom when what is Done in Heaven Will be Done on Earth...Victory over satan and his seed.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

shorttribber wrote:<snip>Are you believing that the "little season" reference in Rev 20 is synonymous with the 3.5 years mentioned in the second part of Rev12?It seems that is the idea that you're looking to.

I see no other time period where it is relevant to our understanding of the End Times.

If we look at around 3,000 years of history as contained in Daniel 9:26b-27 {with my embellishments} then we would see the timeline as follows: -

Daniel 9:26b-27: - As for the city and the sanctuary,the people of the coming prince, {probably, one of the heads of the third beast or the little horn, both of which are fallen wicked heavenly hosts}, will destroy them.But his, {the coming prince's} end {judgement} will come speedily like a flood. Until the end of the war {in heaven, when the judgement begins firstly with the judgement of God's House in Heaven} that has been decreed (Isaiah 24:21)there will be destruction {in the Land of Canaan for around 2,000 years}. [Note that after the Judgement first begins in heaven, and after the fullness in time of the heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God is also judged on the earth at Armageddon, all of Israel will be saved.] 27 He {the prince that came previously, the wicked fallen heavenly host} will confirm a covenant with many for one week {during the little season of Rev 20, after the 1,000 years of imprisonment has passed}. But in the middle of that weekhe {either the Little Horn, the false prophet or Satan} will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt.On the wing of abominations will come one {Satan} who destroys,until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys."

Now, yes I perceive that the passage Rev 12:13-13-18, embraces the period of the solemn covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27 during the little while period.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, That they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The word "For judgment " in John 9:39 has the meaning of "decision" as per Strong. If this is the case then Jesus has come to offer humanity the opportunity to make a decision between "life" and "Death"

shorttribber wrote:<snip>Math 2323 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

<snip>

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

You/Ye?The House of Israel/The House of God/ left Desolate..until Repentance.

Christ brought, and will further bring Judgment for the Rebellious, and Mercy to the Repentant

Now, it is clear from the Old Testament, i.e. Exodus 20:4-6, around 1400 years before hand, that there was prophesised a period of time, namely a period slightly longer than 2,000 years when the sins/iniquities of the fathers during the first approximate 2,000 year period, would be visited on all of the House of Israel. This time period is confirmed in Isaiah 61:4. In Daniel 9:24, Israel was warned that they had only 490 solar years from when that prophecy was given to repent of their idolatry. Daniel 9:26b tells us that the land would be devastated and desolated after the 490 year period of God's Grace to repent, and that period of time would continue until the end of the "War"/Judgement in heaven. Jesus in this passage from the Gospels is only retelling what was already know to the House of Israel as it was told to them by the prophets. They chose to bear the heavy burden even though Christ offered them the lighter yoke of life with which to burden themselves with.

Jay Ross wrote:The word "For judgment " in John 9:39 has the meaning of "decision" as per Strong. If this is the case then Jesus has come to offer humanity the opportunity to make a decision between "life" and "Death"

Jay,The same word...

Strong's #2917: krima (pronounced kree'-mah)from 2919; a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ("crime")):--avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, + go to law, judgment.

Is used in both 1Peter 4 (Judgment must begin at the House of God) and in John 9:39 For Judgment I am come into the world.

shorttribber wrote:Are you believing that the "little season" reference in Rev 20 is synonymous with the 3.5 years mentioned in the second part of Rev12?It seems that is the idea that you're looking to.

Jay Ross wrote:Now, yes I perceive that the passage Rev 12:13-13-18, embraces the period of the solemn covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27 during the little while period.

Based on that understanding, you would need to find the Thousand years Where in Rev. Chapter 12? Would that thousand year time need to be found Between verses 12 and 13? It seems that's the only place possible then.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Jay Ross wrote:The word "For judgment " in John 9:39 has the meaning of "decision" as per Strong. If this is the case then Jesus has come to offer humanity the opportunity to make a decision between "life" and "Death"

Jay,The same word...

Strong's #2917: krima (pronounced kree'-mah)from 2919; a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ("crime")):--avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, + go to law, judgment.

Is used in both 1Peter 4 (Judgment must begin at the House of God) and in John 9:39 For Judgment I am come into the world.

Shows you how foolish I can look when I do not validate the validity of the translated English verse I am spruiking on and take on blind faith that the translation I am referencing has got it right to start with.

Perhaps the first portion of this verse should have been better expressed by me as: -

For the occasion of the commencement of the decision begins within the house of God: and if first with us, what . . . .

But I am sure there will be others who will hold to a differing view as to how the Greek text should be translated.

Let us see what will transpire.

shorttribber wrote:

shorttribber wrote:Are you believing that the "little season" reference in Rev 20 is synonymous with the 3.5 years mentioned in the second part of Rev12?It seems that is the idea that you're looking to.

Jay Ross wrote:Now, yes I perceive that the passage Rev 12:13-13-18, embraces the period of the solemn covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27 during the little while period.

Based on that understanding, you would need to find the Thousand years Where in Rev. Chapter 12? Would that thousand year time need to be found Between verses 12 and 13? It seems that's the only place possible then.

Jay Ross wrote:Shows you how foolish I can look when I do not validate the validity of the verse I am spruiking on and take on blind faith that the translation I am referencing has got it right to start with.

I had to look up "spruiking"

shorttribber wrote:Based on that understanding, you would need to find the Thousand years Where in Rev. Chapter 12? Would that thousand year time need to be found Between verses 12 and 13? It seems that's the only place possible then.

Jay Ross wrote:Yes I would concur with that conclusion.

finding support or evidence in a space between verses where no words exist must surely create a weakness in your position doesn't it?

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps the first portion of this verse should have been better expressed by me as: -For the occasion of the commencement of the decision begins within the house of God: and if first with us, what . . . .

Are you quoting from some known Bible version...if so which version?

And I needed to add that I do not at all understand what that verse would be saying if it were translated as such.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Jay Ross wrote:Shows you how foolish I can look when I do not validate the validity of the verse I am spruiking on and take on blind faith that the translation I am referencing has got it right to start with.

I had to look up "spruiking"

shorttribber wrote:Based on that understanding, you would need to find the Thousand years Where in Rev. Chapter 12? Would that thousand year time need to be found Between verses 12 and 13? It seems that's the only place possible then.

Jay Ross wrote:Yes I would concur with that conclusion.

finding support or evidence in a space between verses where no words exist must surely create a weakness in your position doesn't it?

There is a time gap between v12 and v13. This is not uncommon in the scriptures. Another example is found in Daniel 7 between v18 and v19 where 1,000 years separates the information about the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 from the four sided/facetted beast of Daniel 7:19-27.

It can be considered that the Bible has many sound bytes of events recorded within its pages with no apparent connectivity between the various sound bytes of recorded prophecy. Being able to see the connectivity between the various sound bytes requires much study and meditation on the word.

Now whether or not this is a weakness depends on a person's perspective and their own level of understanding of scripture. There are a number of gaps written about in the scriptures which are hidden from view because of the so call technical interpretation/translation of the words used to define the particular length of a finite period of time. Just because we cannot comprehend the length of time does not mean the infinite time periods that we use to describe the length of time between prophesised events help our understanding of the actual finite time represented in the original texts. Jeremiah 50 speaks of a gap in time between the third and fourth segment in the Statue Prophecy of Daniel 2 but its duration is masked from view because of the "technical interpretation" of the original Hebrew words. This is also true in Isaiah 61:4 where we can look at the prophecy and apply 20/20 hindsight to see the described gap in time. This means that the Roman Empire cannot be the fourth segment of the statue prophecy, but the tradition of understanding still prevails in a number of quarters.

The resistance to change one's understanding is a very big stumbling block/mill stone to understanding Biblical prophecy. Even for someone like me.

Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps the first portion of this verse should have been better expressed by me as: -For the occasion of the commencement of the decision begins within the house of God: and if first with us, what . . . .

Are you quoting from some known Bible version...if so which version?

And I needed to add that I do not at all understand what that verse would be saying if it were translated as such.

I have provided my own paraphrase of the original Greek Text. I have made no reference to any particular translation of this verse.

We each make a decision as to whether or not we chose "life" or "death" and at the time that our decision is acted on by God is what we call the Great White Throne Room Judgement. Our decision is reflected in the manner in which we live our respective lives to bless those around us and these acts are recorded in the Books that will be opened at the time our righteousness is determined.

Jay Ross wrote:I have provided my own paraphrase of the original Greek Text. I have made no reference to any particular translation of this verse.

Ok, I wasn't sure where that came from.

Jay Ross wrote:We each make a decision as to whether or not we chose "life" or "death" and at the time that our decision is acted on by God is what we call the Great White Throne Room Judgement. Our decision is reflected in the manner in which we live our respective lives to bless those around us and these acts are recorded in the Books that will be opened at the time our righteousness is determined.

Well, I don't think the Righteous will be at that Judgment, I do believe that it is reserved for the Wicked only.We just will disagree on that I guess.

Jay Ross wrote:Just because we cannot comprehend the length of time does not mean the infinite time periods that we use to describe the length of time between prophesised events.

This sentence was incomplete I think.

Usually I think we see reasons within the texts themselves that will suggest or give us a reason to allow that a time gap exists though.It is uncommon, I think, to consider or suppose such a gap where nothing in a given text hints at such.

I will look more closely at the examples you've mentioned though

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

1 Pet 412 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.17 For the occasion of the commencement of the decision begins within the house of God: and if first with us, whatshall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

{Your version enlarged and in color}

How does your version of this text FIT in the context of this passage Jay?

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

shorttribber wrote:Just for the sake of context, I wanted to try this......

1 Pet 412 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.17 For the occasion of the commencement of the decision begins within the house of God: and if first with us, whatshall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

{Your version enlarged and in color}

How does your version of this text FIT in the context of this passage Jay?

What version did you use to insert my paraphrase into?

I would have to say reasonably good considering that the balance of the text I have not checked whether it has validity as you have presented it.

Jay Ross wrote:I have provided my own paraphrase of the original Greek Text. I have made no reference to any particular translation of this verse.

Ok, I wasn't sure where that came from.

Jay Ross wrote:We each make a decision as to whether or not we chose "life" or "death" and at the time that our decision is acted on by God is what we call the Great White Throne Room Judgement. Our decision is reflected in the manner in which we live our respective lives to bless those around us and these acts are recorded in the Books that will be opened at the time our righteousness is determined.

Well, I don't think the Righteous will be at that Judgment, I do believe that it is reserved for the Wicked only.We just will disagree on that I guess.

<snip>

Daniel 12 would seem to be in agreement with what I have stated as is Matthew 25:33ff

Jay Ross wrote:Just because we cannot comprehend the length of time does not mean the infinite time periods that we use to describe the length of time between prophesised events help our understanding of the actual finite time represented in the original texts.

Thanx for fixing the sentence Jay. Still, any lack of comprehension regarding a lengthy time period isn't the issue I've mentioned. The point I've made is that there is Zero Evidence in scripture where Zero words exist between two verses.

It would seem that where it plainly says that the Kingdom of God and the Power of His Christ "Has Come" (vs 10), we can expect that IF a Thousand Year reign did actually begin at that point that we would have At Least some Hint In the text. We should not simply believe something based on Zero Existing Words.

Also Jay, your example of a time gap in between Daniel 7: verses 18 and 19 does not at all help to show any proof of your position. The entire kind of interaction in each given vision is very different, yet you're trying to compare them as an example where we could possibly understand a thousand year gap.

We could say they are similar only in that neither give us Even a Hint of any such gap, but we should, according to you, believe there is one.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

In the context of the original post, from which you quoted, I was not referring to the Revelation 12 time gap between v12 and v13 text but I was making a general observation on the prophecies in Jeremiah 50, specifically verse 39 where the RSV is translated to read, "nor for all generations." whereas the Hebrew Text is best understood IMHO to have the meaning of, "neither shall it be dwelt in for two ages/generation" or "neither it be dwelt in for an age/generation plus an age/generation." From my searching of the scriptures my understanding of the length of and age/generation is that it is slightly longer that 1,000 solar years in length.

If we match Jeremiah 50 with the Statue Prophecy in Daniel 2 then there is an approximate gap of around 2,000 years in Daniel 2 between v39 and v40 because the same prophetic vision over the Land of Babylon it is described in Jeremiah 50 with reference to the third, fourth and the fifth segments of the statue prophecy.

If we only look at Daniel 2 we find that there are no words between v39 and v40 to indicate the possibility of a gap in time however, in Daniel's vision but it is there in Jeremiah's vision of what the Lord will be doing to the subsequent kingdoms in the Land of Babylon.

We are also told of this same time gap in Isaiah 61:4.

From my years of pouring over the scriptures, I am slowly beginning to see time gaps when I start to see the relativity between the various sound byte End Time prophecies in the Bible. A number of sound byte prophecies can be found scattered in the scriptures with each one describing the same prophetic event and providing differing information to complete the big picture of the one event within the related end time prophecies.

Revelation 12:1-12 is about the judging of all of the fallen and wicked heavenly hosts in heaven and the displacement of these fallen and wicked heavenly host from heaven down to the earth. Isaiah 24:21-22 describes the event as a judgement in heaven. Other events in the scriptures where a judgement of God is being made against a nation/people group, the judgement is associated with a battle. Revelation 12:1-12 is describing a judgement taking place in heaven and all of the fallen wicked heavenly host being swept down to the earth to join the judged kings on the earth on that day and they will on that same day be imprisoned in the a pit for many days after which they will be punished. Now Satan is one of the heavenly hosts that has been cast down to the earth {in the prophecy} and Revelation 20:1-3 provides another sound byte picture of what is described in Isaiah 24:21-22 and it tells us that Satan is locked up as a prisoner in the pit/bottomless pit for 1,000 days. Now if we accept the pit described in Isaiah 24:21-22 is the same as the bottomless pit in Revelation 20:1-3, then the likelihood of a gap of 1,000 years between Rev 12 v12 and v13 is highly likely. The Daniel 7:23-27 describes a "three and a half year?" period of oppression of the Saints on the earth which occurs after the 1,000 year gap in time found between v12 and v13 in Rev 12.

John told us what he saw but he did not see the time gaps between the various events that will be taking place during the End times over a very extended time period which in many aspects is either outside of our ability to comprehend or the gaps between the various events is very difficult to whole heartedly accept, even for someone like me without questioning the evidence when we first see the gaps in time.

We may not even have complete agreement between us but we both accept that the end times is overtaking us as we continue to discuss various aspects of its fulfilment.

It's good to bring out more parts to the amazingly vast and virtually endless or eternal prophetic picture.

Keep in mind this one thing as we continue our discussion, and that is this, The Primary Subject of Revelation.That is one of the most important ingredients we Absolutely Must include in our Understanding of prophecy.

Later today or this evening I hope to lay out the Critical Focus we should have regarding Rev 12 in particular.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

The trouble is that the time gap in the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy means that the Roman Empire cannot be the fourth segment, i.e. the legs of the statue and if the legs are not the Roman Empire then it becomes difficult to justify the Revived Roman Empire as being the fifth segment of the Statue.

The argument is that Islam is not the fourth segment of the statue either.

Since we are battling fallen heavenly hosts at this present time and not flesh and blood, by attempting to focus on a revelation from humanity of the respective beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 means that we are ignoring the dominion of "spiritual" entities of the fallen and wicked heavenly hosts that are to be judged soon in our near future. The humanity perspective of the fourth beast theories means that their is no real difference between a Roman Empire and the Islamic paradigm for the fourth Beast. Different people groups may chose to inhabit the domains of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 but these people groups are manifesting the basic characteristics of the respective four beasts.

To begin with there was God.

Before the Bottomless pit is locked, there are four beasts, the little horn and Satan having dominion over the peoples of the earth if the people of the earth chose to inhabit their respective dominions.

During the 1,000 years that the bottomless pit is locked, the Son of Man exercises His dominion over all of the peoples of the earth during the summer harvest season.

After the Bottomless pit is unlocked there will be four beasts acting in unison, the little horn, the false prophet and Satan acting to exercise dominion over the peoples of the earth and they will go out to all of the earth killing the saints who will submit to worship the beast. The people of the earth will be offered a solemn covenant to achieve their desire to become God Like but after three and a half years Satan will renege on the terms of the covenant and insist that all of humanity must only worship him as a deity and those who will not will be oppressed or killed because of their opposition to Satan's demands. During this time there will be a great falling away.

At the end of mankind as we presently know it, there will be God. All of the fallen wicked heavenly hosts will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

All of mankind who had died before that time will be raised and those who are Christs will meet Him in the clouds on His return to the earth to begin the processing of the decisions that people have or will be making concerning their choice between choosing either Life of death/sin, some to ever lasting life while everybody else will be consumed with a fire that never goes out and the worm that eats them that will never die. The people in the fire will be abhorrent to the saints who worship God. Isaiah 66:24.

What is the central message/primary subject of the book of Revelation?

If we consider Rev 12, then it must be the gap between v12 and v13 when the kingdom of God is established and operating while there is no distraction on the face of the earth from God.

Well, I'm going to try and show where our focus should be when we read Revelation 12.What is the Primary Subject?

The Promised SEED (Christ), He is the Primary Subject.

In ANY case when the Beauty and Surety of the Abrahamic Covenant is in View, Christ is the Primary Subject Of it.

When I opened this thread, I mentioned that I didn't agree entirely or exactly with the Chiastic structure that I posted from another site. But the Center of it, where in the chapter the center was, I am in agreement.

When discussing Chiasm in the past, we all agreed that the Interpretation of a Chiasm can vary, Greatly Vary. That is absolutely true.What really is hard to deny though, I think , is the structure itself...it's just there, that's the Hebraic Style.

So, how can we arrive at the correct Meaning, does the Chiastic Structure Assist us? I think it can, not in every case, but in many cases, I definitely think It can.

At the beginning of this thread I wrote the following.....

shorttribber wrote:So then....what can this mean in the General View of these Patterns? Why do thy exist? What did/does God Intend for us to Notice, to SEE in them? The Short answer I think is this. He wants us to Notice the Center, the Focus, the primary Subject of Prophetic Revelation. It could also be said that He wants us to Notice the Highest Point Reached in each Revelation, or the Pinnacle, the Crescendo of His Prophetic Voice.......His Prophetic Word in the Highest Place. Christ IS the Prophetic Word.......In the Highest Place.

With that thought in mind, I will next attempt to show how we may Focus on Christ (The Promised SEED) in Revelation 12.And in doing so, That is how we will arrive at the True Interpretation/Meaning of that most Wonderful and Glorious chapter.

It's bed time for me now...need to add more tomorrow

Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Douggg wrote:Revelation brings closure to all of the prophecies of the bible. I don't know that there is a singular "primary subject of Revelation" .

What I'm pointing at mainly Douggg, is Revelation in the general prophetic sense, Not specifically the Book of Revelation. In other words, the Revealing of Prophecy in the Entire Bible, Old and New Testament.

Thanx for jumping back in to the threads too. I've been overwhelmed with stuff in general, not much time available for me lately to post either.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Douggg wrote:Revelation brings closure to all of the prophecies of the bible. I don't know that there is a singular "primary subject of Revelation" .

What I'm pointing at mainly Douggg, is Revelation in the general prophetic sense, Not specifically the Book of Revelation. In other words, the Revealing of Prophecy in the Entire Bible, Old and New Testament.

Thanx for jumping back in to the threads too. I've been overwhelmed with stuff in general, not much time available for me lately to post either.

oh, I missed the point, thanks. Usually, I can pick up anywhere in a thread and understand what is being said, but this thread I have no idea of what you guys are talking about. I think I am going to stay out of this one :) .

Douggg wrote:oh, I missed the point, thanks. Usually, I can pick up anywhere in a thread and understand what is being said, but this thread I have no idea of what you guys are talking about. I think I am going to stay out of this one :) .

No need to stay out of it...hope you will continue...maybe just read the first few posts to know where I'm coming from

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.