@Tantus, there is a detail you forgot... SL Gor is a game played by both men and women. So, there is no point in separating men and women in groups which concern the game, where both genders may bring their ideas and suggestions.

If you want an "only boy group party", nothing wrong, open it. Just don't require to use one of the game groups for this purpose.

Where is this sense of entitlement coming from? I've always been of the opinion that people should roleplay how they want, and let others RP how they want.

So let's hear of your amazing contributions and ideas to the genre which necessitate your involvement in every group. So far as I'm aware, you restrict your IC interactions to individuals you already know OOC'ly, on sims where you can moderate and control the fate of your character. To exist within these boundaries isn't my definition of a legitimate Gorean experience. And now you feel every sim should follow you and collapse after a month too in the tradition of those sims you've roleplayed on? It's a very selfish and destructive attitude, Sasi.

I'm not interested in these quickies of playing princes and princesses in their ivory towers for a month, under some pretence of political roleplay where everything is being controlled OOC'ly. I would advocate the opposite and say, those who value their time and investment should broaden their experience beyond a tiny group on a niche sim. Then your character's fate flows out of your control and you learn the meaning of ICA=ICC when it relates to you, and not something you include in profile limits to denounce others.

Now, if you can keep pace with the topic of the thread and offer some insight to how, 8-10 years ago SL Gor held a healthy balance of men to women then go ahead. Otherwise I will take your further jibes as feminist trolling on a Gorean forum.

For my characters, the male-female bonding aspect is their primary motivation. I also view the male-bonding process as a potent part of Gorean roleplay and overall experience. At this stage, some may giggle and respond like juveniles with 'dude that's so gay'. But if you've never met your RL friends with a bro-hug, or shared beds with no sense of homosexuality to it then those are unresolved issues in you. Of course I draw the line at sharing toothbrushes with a 'bro', but we all have our limits.

I've no issues with being labelled a sexist for sharing my liberal views and promoting an SL Gor which works for all people. Even if it involves some segregation between a 'Veils' and a 'Warriors' group, there's always the main city chat where everyone comes together too. The unfortunate fact is, SL Gor is overcrowded with single women of a suffocating disposition who cannot afford male roleplayers the space to do his own online-thing and Boom! he quits SL Gor altogether. And that's why we see sims struggling along with 20 females and 2 males online. There is hope, when I'm actively roleplaying I manage to find sensible women and appreciate those who do RP with me. No woman could ever say I've disrespected her in IMs.

#goreangirlsmatter, even to me, but I'm entirely of the opinion that SL Gor should work for men first, and in being so, it will also work for women. And I don't say this out of being sexist or 'racist' towards women, but from looking at the past six years of BTB Gor failing and from seeing the more politically correct a Gorean sim is, the shorter it lasts. Who even read the books and came to Gor expecting to find sensible people?

I think...the point I was trying to make, and maybe not very well, was that it's ridiculous to try to discuss gender -unless- we're discussing characters only. Typists are, for all intents and purposes, anonymous and could be of any gender- people may or may not disclose their purported gender and even if they do, there's no way to know if they're lying about it or no. So it's beyond pointless to try to say "women should stay out of the warrior chat" because again, a large portion of the people playing warriors are likely female typists. If you instead say, "female characters shouldn't be in an IC warrior chat" well, that's different...sorta- how is a "chat" IC? I mean...follow me here, what's the In Character conceit, since if you're IC, and playing a man who's in the warrior caste on the planet of Gor, you wouldn't have computers, or 'chat'. So...do you pretend it's an actual convo set in a tavern or bath house? Maybe a 'message board' set in a public place?

Wouldn't it be better to actually drive your avatar to a tavern or bath house on a sim and meet en masse there to be IC? That way, if a female avatar butted in, you'd be able to and expected to handle things in an IC fashion. And I say that, because historically, in Gorean sims- one of the biggest obstacles to the whole male camaraderie thing, is the fact that men avoid congregating in public places together just to hang out and be men together. So- that's one thing you guys can actually do to combat that problem. Go to the tavern, go to the bath houses, often. Encourage male av's and fellow warrior characters to do likewise. Have regular combat practices in the arenas, combat classes, spar, fight- warriors would presumably spend hours a day exercising, sparring, honing their skills, yet I rarely see anyone playing a warrior doing any of that. It'd be a nice change, and would probably be more fun.

And from the point of view of someone who generally plays slave characters, it'd be way more fun to hang around groups of male characters doing guy things, being all male and fighty and sweaty and testosterone and get to swoon and fangirl and be all slavey and adoring and maybe get used casually without interfering with the guy stuff- all that's pretty damned cool with me and probably lots of other people playing slaves, and yet- again, it's something we almost never see. Most of the dudes are either locked up somewhere with a free woman doing political intrigue stuff, or else busy white knighting someone. It's rare to see guytoons doing...guy stuff, and honestly that's sad.

"...to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought." --- (Marauders of Gor, p.7)http://clockworkkitteh.blogspot.com/

Tantus wrote:Now, if you can keep pace with the topic of the thread and offer some insight to how, 8-10 years ago SL Gor held a healthy balance of men to women then go ahead. Otherwise I will take your further jibes as feminist trolling on a Gorean forum.

8-10 years ago, SL Gor was a full crappy environment for lifestylers, where you were treated -everywhere- like a second class SL Resident when you Rped a slave and onlineisms were the norm and if you didn't have $SL to give to your captor, you were in troubles.And if you were a man rping a female char of vice versa and discovered, you were shamed all over the SL Gor grid....

And what Tamar said (although I disagree a little bit with the statement about the dudes locked with FW. Most of the men locked up somewhere with a FW are having some love scene with the wench who is usually their beloved FC while the slave girl is outside the room, doing a chore or at their feet all happy-happy for the mistress )

When reading this thread the word that comes to mind is “Globalization”. Why, because just like Globalization, who was sold to the masses world wide as something that was supposed to make our lives, economies, etc better; the changes that have been going on in SL Gor in the past 8 years were promised the same, that they would improve our gorean roleplaying experience. And while maybe overall the experience was improved, as with Globalization, many felt they lost, they were left behind, ignored, thrown out etc…

Those who feel left behind, out, disenfranchised, unrepresented by the current view of SL Gor also feel that whenever they dare to complain, try to change things, see if their view for SL Gor can be accepted, they are called names, referred to as dinosaurs, life-stylers, bad roleplayers, etc… They are told, if you don’t like it, go and play somewhere else, make your own group, you are not smart enough to understand the benefits of para-roleplay brings and all that…

If not what one would call the answers some are giving Tantus, in the sort of “if you want an all-boy group, make yours, the ones we have are fine”, or “if you want to bond with RL guys that is gay” (btw since when gay seems to be wrong for RP? and for the record I am straight), or “8-10 years ago, SL Gor was a full crappy environment for lifestylers, where you were treated -everywhere- like a second class SL Resident when you Rped a slave and onlineisms were the norm and if you didn't have $SL to give to your captor, you were in troubles”.

Instead of taking Tantus points, and trying to see what can be done to try to bring back all the men that feel that there is no place for them in SL Gor, and hence are leaving or thinking of leaving because they can’t find that world where men are men, the dominant species, while women are… well just women. Instead they find a place where:women ask for equality, where if they want to spar in the arena, women and slaves complain that the noise and shouting by the meter disrupt other people’s roleplay (yes, that is what we were told like 7 years ago in Cardonicus, and why the sparring moved to a skybox). Where if you are a warrior, and you devote hours to training and sparring, you are called a pew pewer and since it doesn’t involve para-roleplay of 40 lines paragraphs you are a specimen of an inferior, barbaric species (yes been called that too).That if you fuck in open chat a kajira in a tavern, you are told to take it private.If you tell women and others that warriors don’t discuss their affairs (including codes) in front of non-warriors (as it is in done the books) you are told you are en elitist and against open roleplay for all.If you decide to punish a mouthy, undisciplined kajira by placing her in a cage or killing her (which by the way I have done for no reason, except that she was my property and I found pleasure in killing her) you are told you are killing the slave’s roleplay and that she has every right to roleplay.Being insulted by FW in countless ways, but when one finally manages to find a way to collar them, they get out of it by simply logging on an alt and keeping up with their roleplay.

I could go on and on, but clearly the examples above, which I have witnessed for the past several years, show a community (the Gorean community in SL) where a part of it, and I dare to say a big part of it, feels that it is being left behind, and pushed outside of the community; and like those in globalization that feel ignored completely when they complain or ask for changes to be included (call them Brexiteers, Right Wing Nationalists in Europe, Trump supporters in the USA, Third World Anti-Globalization Activists) I see we are resorting to more and more radical views (stop roleplaying, complaining more and more, leaving trying to find other things). And unless all of SL Gor decides to work together in trying to bring back those who feel are being left out, what is going to happen is more of the same. Men are going to continue to leave (which is the SL way of voting leaving) and women will be left asking more and more where are all the men. And SL Gor will be more and more fractured in the future.

Of course each is free to do and play as they wish, but if instead of trying to understand each other and see how we can make things work (which was by the way the spirit of SL Gor around 10 years ago when we were all pioneers in SL in general, trying to figure out what this thing was about), we call each other names and just want to get away with our little games, then SL Gor will continue to divide itself and eventually disappear.

The thoughts of Tantus about male bonding and domination are agreed all over this thread and believe me I have played a male character and bromanced and it was extremely cool.

The matter is that often, too often seems some people bring their sensibility up and demand that their point view be respected. DEMAND... not ask or insert here for further discussion. The problem with these folks is that it is inevitable to meet them and too often its women (since they are the majority) and now we have this thread.

Things have changed in Gor, for worse. People's limits and washed out Gor has led to stale stories of people tip toeing around RP as to not offend others and have to have your free time turned into banter. Nobody wants to log in SL and have to deal with the drama. Too often this comes from personal interpretations.

I don't give two fucks if a group want to make their clique and keep me out because if they don't want me trying to step in is not going to improve my acceptance. This should work easily for GOR male domination aside. I think often we confuse the equality OOC from IC. Seems so obvious to us in here the principles of character separation be met but unfortunately it's just not that simple.

You know what is scary? Playing a slave character with a guy and letting him play a dominant role and then have an im pushing to OOC this shit. Makes you just want to tip toe around a person before you RP freely doesn't it?

Nobody here from the responses has a problem with a man playing his Gorean role or keeping women out the rarius group. Its when the OOC is put on the stake that the problems begin because you are FEMALE mod and you are not involved at all in the decision making made by a group of people. This is not necessarily bad but its a case to case basis. I don't know what we can do to improve it but surely some ideas can be brought

- Keep your LIMITS in check, FTB but fuck that no rape no cutting shit.

- Do not IM a person in RP because your feelings are hurt. Grow some self esteem and do what you do in RL! Reply to the person IC or exit the scene.

- Male dominated society, women should be scared to deal with you offensively. Women should portray this type of respect no matter their role. Think of it as dealing with a policeman, you can get in trouble for offending one.

As far as it goes in here and among decent goreans your issues don't seem to hold but then we go to the mainstream and we see shit like companions calling each-other "love... darling..." because most of Gor is not in the forum, most of the decent Gor ruins it by making their private cliques afraid to deal with noobs. Most of Gor is more concerned with buying clothes and gossiping OOC. I am at fault for some of these but I think I am happy I got to get some good experiences to remember.

JackoS wrote:Instead of taking Tantus points, and trying to see what can be done to try to bring back all the men that feel that there is no place for them in SL Gor, and hence are leaving or thinking of leaving because they can’t find that world where men are men, the dominant species, while women are… well just women. Instead they find a place where:women ask for equality,

Of course we ask for equality - out of character - Why would we accept to be treated the Gorean way, OOCly? At least for those who like me, are just role players. We come to depict a fictive character, we are not our characters, we are not Gorean. The Gorean philosophy should not apply OOC. We are all equal OOC, whatever our RL gender and role we play.

JackoS wrote:where if they want to spar in the arena, women and slaves complain that the noise and shouting by the meter disrupt other people’s roleplay (yes, that is what we were told like 7 years ago in Cardonicus, and why the sparring moved to a skybox).

I heard many men complain too. Not just women, but people who are playing around and get disrupted by the shouting. Personally, I don't mind much.

JackoS wrote:Where if you are a warrior, and you devote hours to training and sparring, you are called a pew pewer and since it doesn’t involve para-roleplay of 40 lines paragraphs you are a specimen of an inferior, barbaric species (yes been called that too).

If you are a warrior and show up only when a raid happens, chances you get called a pew pewer. If you are a warrior who spend hours training and is able to RP with creativity, nobody will mind when you devote hours to improve your combat skills. Certainly not the women.

JackoS wrote:That if you fuck in open chat a kajira in a tavern, you are told to take it private.If you tell women and others that warriors don’t discuss their affairs (including codes) in front of non-warriors (as it is in done the books) you are told you are en elitist and against open roleplay for all.

Prudishness is all over SL Gor, not just expressed by women, but by men as well who tend to be loyal to their FC that often, they partnered, or to their slaves. Discussing codes can be done in presence of slave girls (yes, in Plunders, serious matters are discussed in front of slave girls and it stated that as they are animals, it doesn't matter). But if you stay in the warrior hall, I see no reason for people to complain.

JackoS wrote:If you decide to punish a mouthy, undisciplined kajira by placing her in a cage or killing her (which by the way I have done for no reason, except that she was my property and I found pleasure in killing her) you are told you are killing the slave’s roleplay and that she has every right to roleplay.

There are many ways in the books to punish an undisciplined kajira, I have yet to see one scene where one is killed for such reason. But in SL Gor, people rely on the "you don't need a reason to kill a slave". It's simplistic (which I can understand when the slave player plays such crap non sense, but personally, I just walk away and don't bother). Placing the player in a cage and leaving her there while you walk away is bad form RP. Would you appreciate being captured, thrown in a cage, then, left alone with no RP? Why would you inflict that to a slave player? Because she plays a slave? Role play etiquette applies to everyone. Cage the slave, yes, but be sure that her player won't be left without RP. A role play is a collaborative game, it's a principle that too many people tend to forget.

JackoS wrote:Being insulted by FW in countless ways, but when one finally manages to find a way to collar them, they get out of it by simply logging on an alt and keeping up with their roleplay.

In the books, FW tend to demean men, they consider themselves their equal, if not their superior (especially when they are of high station. But I don't see one insulting a man without some provocation or because she sensed some hint of disrespect. A man who would plot until he got the woman in his collar offered usually, so, a great RP, a nice plot storyline. The guy who slaps the woman who treated him with contempt, across the face and pulls out a collar, is just boring (and it doesn't happen in the books, especially when a home stone is shared). And SL Gor is full of men who just disrespect FW, who keep their slaves in nadu in their presence, who play a low caste (not even of the high merchants) and expect all FW, even those of high station will bend at him because he is a man and well, Gor is a man's world... It's just not the way of the books where in this man's world, FW are treated with the greatest deference. I see nothing wrong with a player whose character got enslaved, who will use an alt to still play a FW. As long as she honors the RP with her other avatar, the newly enslaved woman.I have more issues with those players, of both genders, who state: No collar, no force collar, etc.

JackoS wrote:I could go on and on, but clearly the examples above, which I have witnessed for the past several years, show a community (the Gorean community in SL) where a part of it, and I dare to say a big part of it, feels that it is being left behind, and pushed outside of the community; and like those in globalization that feel ignored completely when they complain or ask for changes to be included (call them Brexiteers, Right Wing Nationalists in Europe, Trump supporters in the USA, Third World Anti-Globalization Activists) I see we are resorting to more and more radical views (stop roleplaying, complaining more and more, leaving trying to find other things). And unless all of SL Gor decides to work together in trying to bring back those who feel are being left out, what is going to happen is more of the same. Men are going to continue to leave (which is the SL way of voting leaving) and women will be left asking more and more where are all the men. And SL Gor will be more and more fractured in the future.

Men (and women as well), should just play their role in the respect of the culture as described in the books, in separating well IC and OOC. I find lame people who play their character in keeping it as a reflection of their real personality. It's, actually, the real problem. People can't separate themselves from their character, they care for the way their character will look, because they fear that their actions become a reflection of the typist. And so, almost no woman dare to play jealousy, envy, pettiness (and I have yet to find a FW in the book, or description of FW, of nice women with a noble, pure and generous heart), slave players of both genders mostly play an adaptation of the BDSM sub, and men mostly want to play a man of honor, honest, loyal and, as in our world, can't stand if a woman don't respect them, love their FC with passion and only keep the slave for the chores and serves.When Gor is a society based on inequalities, hierarchy, power and ranks, people play it as if every free person were the equal of each other. Eh, how many times I heard: "The ubar must earn my respect". No man, it doesn't work this way, actually, it's: "I (well, your char) must earn the ubar's respect" In Gor, It's not for the king to bend to the peasant. Can't even count the number of situations where Earth principles are applied to the Gorean role play, such as the famous Hippocratic Oath, the equality in front of the laws (everyone is deemed innocent until....) etc etc.

These problems kill any creative role play and break the immersion of people who made efforts to study their role (and when like me you have read the 33 books, soon 34, believe me, you get a hard time). Immersion is not broken because some women talk in a warrior group chat, save for the people who don't separate well IC and OOC. [/quote]

I mostly agree with Cassie, but I don't think things have changed for worse. As I said, we got rid of customs which were truly a pain in 2007, when if you played a slave but stopped acting like one in OOC, you were corrected, shamed and even, you could be ejected from a sim (yes, it happened to me once, just because I asked the local tavern master player to stop bossing me in my IMs). Ransom and slave sale for real money, female fighters all over SL Gor (there was no BTB / GE separation), people who had no real clue about Gorean clothing (was not rare to see a FW with a sheer veil, myself, I wore one... or with earrings, not to mention the so common biker male outfit) and the RP was not less dovey lovey than it is actually (the free companions calling each other "love" tend to become a rarity now, but it was quite common some years ago).

Things improved and more strict players joined, people who want to play, not being OOC Goreans. It may confuse some so called "old Goreans"...

But I do think that immersion breaking is done by people who don't play their role properly because they cannot detach themselves from the Earth values and cannot separate their character from the typist. Not because a female mod interfere in an OOC warrior group.

All I'll say at this point is if the most you can think of to do with an unruly slave is to kill them or stuff them in a cage, you're a very dull RPer and shouldn't be in a position where slave RPers can have their RP ended/fucked up by you.

Cassie wrote:You know what is scary? Playing a slave character with a guy and letting him play a dominant role and then have an im pushing to OOC this shit. Makes you just want to tip toe around a person before you RP freely doesn't it?

Thing is, these OOC crossover people are not always obnoxious jerks one can spot a mile away - they could be really nice and great roleplayers in all other respects. Then suddenly there is that awkward moment... why o why...

SL has always had this lingering aroma of match.com about it, I suppose I just hoped I'd meet more like-minded people in roleplay sims where we are obviously.. roleplaying.