I know some on here believe the rise of Islam will play a significant roll in the end times..I am undecided on this yet...but I am looking into it. People have been warning about them on here for some time now and most were not taken seriously...but I see more and more feeling now this is true. I think for any end time student this is a group that should not be ignored. I would like those that feel that Islam plays into the end time to please add information to this thread...news links...bible scriptures..whatever you have. That way myself and others can get the information we need to understand this better. Thanks.

Ok I heard this on the news this morning. If we allow these extremist to start dictating what is ok and what isn't to have in print...how long before our bible's need editing and censorship? Right now this is happening in Europe and some US publishers have refused to publish this book out of fear of acts of terrorism too....(please list other countries you know this is happening in also..thanks).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/sep/29/jewel.of.medina.firebomb
Muhammad novel publisher undeterred by firebomb attack
Martin Rynja expected to publish the Jewel of Medina in October despite attack on his home guardian.co.uk,
Monday September 29 2008

The publisher whose home was targeted in a firebomb attack on Saturday will be going ahead with putting out a controversial novel about the child bride of Muhammad next month, despite this weekend's events.

London-based Gibson Square acquired journalist Sherry Jones's novel The Jewel of Medina earlier this month after Random House US dropped the novel following warnings that it could provoke terrorist actions from radical Muslims.

On Saturday, what is believed to have been a petrol bomb was thrown through the doorway of publisher Martin Rynja's home in Islington's Lonsdale Square, which doubles as the offices for Gibson Square. Three men have since been detained on suspicion of the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism.

But Natasha Kern, Jones's agent, said "publication is going ahead in both the US and UK. This is one of the primary reasons we chose Gibson Square and Beaufort Books - we knew they would be courageous and get the book in print quickly." (read the rest at the link)

Very important! Watch this video if you can...the words are chilling:http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/10/02/newton.uk.firebomb.speech.cnn?iref=videosearch

Those that have firefox browser...you might have to bring up Internet Explorer to watch it. Apparently after the Muhammad cartoons many British publisher are self censoring...as this editor says, once that starts because of fear, tyranny is just around the corner.

God bless

third hero

Oct 12th 2008, 08:17 PM

Not that I am shocked, but thanks for the info moonglow! I think I am going to go buy the Satanic Verses by Solomon Rushdi as soon as I can.

I realy wish that Luke e leven or stefen were here. They know alot more about the Islamic threat than I do. Moreover, they had verses that really brought Islam into a whole new light in my eyes, although I do not remember them at the moment. All I have to go on is Ahmedinijab and the steps he is taking to invoke the war of the sixth trumpet that I call Big Bang, and the fact that their "Mahdi" was suppose to come and end that war, bringing with him their version of Jesus, who will then confirm an agreement between the nations and then launch an all-out attack against Jerusalem, and the Israelites.

I figured that, since these things mirror that of the events that bring about the Advent of the Beast (2 Thess 2:3-4, Revelation 13), that they must be related.

Literalist-Luke

Oct 12th 2008, 09:24 PM

OK, you asked for it - :D - Apologies if you've already read this elsewhere.

Antichrist’s Hijacking of Islam

First, a word about the Koran (or Q’uran or however you wish to spell it): Please understand that I do not place for one instant any sort of authority in the Koran’s pronouncements such as I would give to the Bible. It is not the Word of God or anything close to it. However, most Christians would agree that Islam is a creation of Satan’s, so perhaps the Koran might offer some insights into the Satanic mindset. In fact, Mohammed’s personal account of how he was given the contents of the Koran is quite remarkable in this regard. History tells us that Mohammed was at least somewhat acquainted with the contents of the Old Testament and at least part of the New Testament, so he knew of Biblical stories of encounters with angels among other things. Invariably whenever an angel appears in the Bible, the first thing they do is to reassure the person they are visiting and to calm any fears they might have. (“Fear not.”) They do not want the person to be alarmed and to consequently miss the message. However, Mohammed’s account describes sleeping in a cave and being violently startled and grabbed harshly by an angelic creature who actually strangled him almost to the point of blacking out. Not surprisingly, Mohammed said he was terrified. This creature introduced himself as “Gabriel”. (Does this sound like the Gabriel who appeared to Daniel and later to Mary?) Rather than attempting to calm Mohammed down, “Gabriel” spoke to him in a very condescending, insulting manner and ordered him to share the contents of what Mohammed was told in this encounter. Mohammed was threatened with dire consequences if he failed to do so. He claimed that words appeared in his mind that he was compelled to pass on. These words supposedly make up a substantial portion of the Koran. For a time afterwards, Mohammed was convinced that he was “demon-possessed”. This hardly seems like the story that a person acquainted with the Old Testament would manufacture. It is so different from the Biblical accounts that it would seem to make Mohammed’s account unlikely if he were simply trying to give added credibility to his teachings. In addition, Muslims try their best to keep this account of Mohammed’s out of public knowledge. Salmon Rushdie’s infamous book, The Satanic Verses, actually discusses this account of Mohammed’s and this is precisely why the ayatollahs sentenced Rushdie to death. The reason that book is called “The Satanic Verses” is because it discusses the possibility of at least part of the Koran coming directly from Satan himself. Why do the Muslims feel so threatened by this story if they don’t believe there is any truth to it? Wouldn’t they simply dismiss it out of hand as being the imagination of “infidels”? If there is any truth to Mohammed’s account, it could be easily argued that he had a direct encounter with a demon, if not with Satan himself. (More details about the “Satanic Verses” can be found at http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/sverses.htm (http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/sverses.htm) . So with this information, it is possible that the Koran could be viewed, to a certain extent, as being demonically inspired. That is why the Koran could offer some insight into the Satanic mindset. (More details, including information from actual Islamic teachings regarding this incident, can be found at http://answering-islam.org/Silas/demons.htm (http://answering-islam.org/Silas/demons.htm).) So going on from there, I’ll tell you what I have learned about Islamic “prophecy”.

(Please remember my earlier statement that I do not consider Islamic “prophecy” to be genuine. It is not to taken as any kind of divine revelation. For those who understand the Bible to be the only true Word of God, Islamic “prophecy’s” only use is to get insider information about Satan and his mindset.)

The whole purpose behind Iran’s efforts to cause so much trouble around the world is to hasten the appearance of a person from Islamic theology called the “Mahdi” (pronounced “mah-dee´”). (Their president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has specifically said so publicly many times, including during a speech to the United Nations General Assembly on September 26, 2007.) The Mahdi is essentially Islam’s Messiah, to borrow the Jewish term. (In fact, if you were speaking to a Muslim and referred to the Mahdi as Islam’s “Messiah” they would usually agree with you that the usage is appropriate and would have no problem with it.) There are a number of prophecies about the Mahdi in the Koran and in another set of Islamic teachings called the “Hadiths”. The Hadiths are a set of oral teachings from Mohammed that were not recorded as early as the writings in the Koran. Therefore, they are not considered to be word-for-word inviolate such as the Koran’s writings, but their substance is considered to be just as “holy” and sacred. The Hadiths have become standardized over the years and for all intents and purposes are studied by faithful Muslims just as diligently as the Koran itself. Between these two different sources we get a fairly detailed set of prophecies about the Mahdi including these highlights: (Please remember, these are not what I say, but rather are what Islamic theology says.)

1. The Mahdi has (supposedly) already been alive once a number of centuries ago, but died prematurely when he “fell down a well”. His appearance would constitute a supposed return from the dead.
2. The Mahdi will appear in a time of great stress in the world (hence Iran’s efforts to deliberately cause great stress in the world – this is why Iran appears to be unresponsive to reason – in their way of thinking, they are behaving entirely logically).
3. The Mahdi will be the “wisest” person who has ever lived.
4. He will be a direct descendant of Mohammed. (There are direct descendants of Mohammed known to be living at this moment, including the King of Jordan among others.)
5. The Mahdi will take over many different nations in the Middle Eastern area.
6. The world will be amazed at the Mahdi’s wisdom, skills at problem solving, and diplomacy.
7. The entire world will give themselves up to the Mahdi.
8. His career will last for somewhere between 7 - 9 years.
9. The Mahdi will make a treaty with the west that will be for exactly seven years and this treaty will be moderated by a Jew of the priestly line of Aaron. (Remember, this is what Islamic theology says. Does this remind you of Daniel 9:27? It is indeed possible today to identify the Aaronic priestly line. There are Jews throughout the world with the surname “Cohen” and other names very similar. This name has been used since the Roman dispersion of 70 AD to identify the priestly line for future use.)
10. Muslims believe the Mahdi is represented in the book of Revelation in a passage that has not been a victim of the rampant corruption and distortions that Muslims say pollute much of the rest of the Bible. This passage is Revelation 6:2 – “I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.” (Apparently, it doesn’t seem to bother Muslims that this passage is claimed by Christians to refer to the Antichrist. It is very interesting that the author of the Koran/Hadiths would choose to represent the Mahdi with this passage.)
11. The Mahdi will establish his world capital in Kufa, Iraq (which is about fifty miles north of Babylon and about fifty miles south of Baghdad).
12. He will later move his seat of power to Jerusalem after he conquers the Jews.
13. He will be very successful at convincing Jews and Christians to convert to Islam (not necessarily voluntarily). (Again, remember, this is what Islam teaches, not me.) Curiously, the Islamic prophecies only mention these two particular religions, Christianity and Judaism. Buddhism, Hinduism and other belief systems are completely ignored. This would only make sense in a system that was designed for the express purpose of opposing the true God of Judaism and Christianity, since the other religions would not be considered a threat by Satan.
14. At the end of the seven year treaty, he will defeat the “Dajjal”, Islam’s equivalent of the Antichrist. (Remember this person, he’ll be important in a few minutes.)
15. The Mahdi’s reign will be a time of unparalleled peace, tranquility, and prosperity throughout the world.

Wait, there’s more. There’s another personality in this scenario I need to tell you about. His name is “Isa”. A Muslim speaking to an English-speaking Christian of this person would call him “Jesus”. Muslims are convinced that this person, “Isa”, is the true Jesus that is written about in our New Testament, except that our New Testament is supposedly full of distortions and fantasies that have been added over the years. The prophecies about “Isa” are just as astounding as the ones about the Mahdi.

1. Isa will appear on the world scene shortly after the Mahdi and will recognize the Mahdi as having authority superior to his own.
2. He will (supposedly) be an actual Jew claiming to be the real, actual Jesus, returned from Heaven. (Notice in Revelation 13:11 that the second beast called the False Prophet is seen to rise up out of the “land” as opposed to the first beast who comes from the sea. The sea is representative of the Gentile world and this reference to the second beast coming out of the “land” is usually taken to mean that this beast is Jewish. This would fit perfectly.)
3. He will “refute” the centuries-old belief that he died on a cross for people’s sins. He will claim that, in fact, he didn’t even really die on the cross at all, rather that he was lifted up off the cross, still alive, into heaven where he has been waiting all this time to return to assist the Mahdi and to finish out his normal lifespan.
4. He will insist that everyone in the entire world either follow the Mahdi’s teachings or be killed and will abolish Christianity altogether. He will also be especially vicious in his determination to kill the “infidel” Jews who do not convert. (Nice way to treat the relatives, huh?)

Wait, there’s one last person I need to introduce you to in this Islamic scenario. I mentioned him in the list about the Mahdi: he’s called the “Dajjal” and he is Islam’s equivalent of the Antichrist. See if you can figure out who this is….. The Dajjal will appear at the end of the seven year treaty in the sky over Israel. He will be sent by “Satan” to oppose the “righteous” Mahdi and Isa. He will be accompanied by myriads of “demons” who will be determined to defeat the forces of the “one true god” (Allah), but he will be immediately defeated by the Mahdi through the power of Allah. Hmm, I wonder who that could be?

Now, I ask you: What are the chances of an uneducated Bedouin like Mohammed coming up with stuff like that on his own without any help? Up until his “encounter”, Mohammed had simply been like all the other Arabs of his day, worshiping a polytheistic system in the Arabian peninsula that was centered around a “magic rock” located in the city of Mecca. (Today, this “magic rock” is Islam’s holiest shrine.) People who knew Mohammed described him as being a successful business person and rather charismatic, but certainly nothing of historical importance or any great religious fervor. His family was moderately wealthy, and he was pretty much just running the family business. Then suddenly, he comes up with all this. And how could he possibly have come up with such a perfect opposite of the prophecies in Revelation? Even Christians of that day (ca. 600 AD) were having so much trouble understanding Revelation that it was subsequently doomed to centuries of being misinterpreted as mostly an “allegorical” work that nobody could understand. It seems very plausible that he had help, just as he said in his account of how he came up with the Koran.

So based on this information, here are some general conclusions that seem reasonable –

(to be continued.....)

Literalist-Luke

Oct 12th 2008, 09:25 PM

So based on this information, here are some general conclusions that seem reasonable –

1. Islam is not going to “go away”, in fact it’s going to (briefly) rule the world.
2. The “West” will either fall or will go along willingly, including the United States.
3. We won’t have to wait for the antichrist to come along to see people being beheaded – Muslims have already been doing it for centuries, and the beheadings of Revelation will simply be a continuation of an old practice, but far more widespread. (And Muslims don’t use guillotines to make it quick and painless either.)
4. The Antichrist’s changing of the “set times and the laws” mentioned at Daniel 7:25 will be the “Mahdi” imposing Sharia Law on the world along with Islam’s lunar calendar as opposed to our more traditional solar calendar. Islam is the only religion in the world that has the stated goal (among others) of imposing its calendar on conquered peoples. Buddhists and Hindus and all other religious systems have no interest in changing their subjects’ calendars. Islam is unique in this regard. This is further evidence that the true Biblical Antichrist will have an Islamic origin, because it is the only belief system in existence today that explains this prophecy of Daniel’s.
5. The teaching of the Antichrist being “Roman” (based on Daniel 9:26) is no problem for this scenario. The Roman Empire, at its greatest extent, went all the way to today’s eastern boundary of Iraq. In addition, there were three Roman legions that destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The largest legion was the 5th Legion, the “Legio V Macedonica”. This was a conscript army, meaning the soldiers were drawn from a particular region. The legion usually bore the name of the region from which the soldiers were drawn. The Legio V Macedonica had soldiers from all over Syria, Jordan, Arabia, Modern Iraq and Iran, and other parts of the Middle East. The actual people (to use the same word as Daniel 9:26) who destroyed the “city and the sanctuary” (as predicted by Daniel) were indeed working for Rome, but they were from areas that are currently Islamic.

There are a few more things I should explain to answer some inevitable questions that would very appropriately come up. The first is about Mystery Babylon. How is there a connection between Revelation 17’s “Mystery Babylon” and Islam? They seem quite different in our traditional understanding of the two. The old pagan polytheistic system of the tower of Babel would seem, at first, to be quite different from monotheistic Islam and this actually threw me off for quite some time until I did a little reading up. Here are some things I learned: The chief deity in the old Babylonian system was the moon god. The moon was considered to be at its holiest when it was in the crescent stage. (Sound familiar?) One of the most common names given to this moon god was “Al-lah”. So there is indeed a direct connection between today’s Islam and Mystery Babylon. When Mohammed received his “revelation” from “Gabriel”, he concluded that he had received information from the “one true god” and that there could be no other god. So he took the name of the most prominent among the gods he had been familiar with for all of his life, “Al-lah”, and simply crossed the other “gods” off the list. Islam was not at all a totally new religion based on some new wisdom that Mohammed came up with as is often believed, but rather is simply a redressing and refinement of the old polytheism that had been around since before the days of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The next question that needs answering is what about Revelation 17:16, where the beast and the ten kings destroy Mystery Babylon? How could Islam’s most powerful leader of all time destroy his own religion? This has to do with the nature of Allah, as taught to Muslims. You might already be aware that any good Muslim would consider it to be the worst form of blasphemy to suggest that Allah has any sort of physical form. In fact, this is their biggest problem with Christianity, because we claim that a man (Jesus) is God in the flesh. This is anathema to Muslims. Here is the explanation: Anybody who has studied history knows that any human who rises to a position of incredible power lets it go to his head. (“Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”) Hitler, Stalin, and Napoleon are only three examples of this. The Antichrist/Mahdi will be no exception. Halfway through the Tribulation, he will present himself to the world and proclaim that “Oh, by the way, I’m Allah in the flesh.” The first questions a lot of people (including me) would have are “But how could he get away with that? Wouldn’t every Muslim in the world turn on him?”

The first point that needs to be remembered is that while the Antichrist accomplishes much in the first half of the seven years of his rule, he does not actually demand to be worshiped until after the middle point of the seven years. It will not be until after the Antichrist has achieved several significant victories and gained a great measure of allegiance that he will establish his position of authority in the Jerusalem temple. It is at this time that Paul explains how Antichrist will “set himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4) This is also the time that Paul said, “the man of lawlessness is revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3) While many Christians with discernment will already have recognized the Antichrist by this point, it will not be until the middle of the seven years that the Bible says he will be fully “revealed.”

We need to understand that the Antichrist will not demand worship until well after he has been universally acknowledged and accepted by the Islamic world as the “Mahdi”. The Imams, mullahs, sheikhs, and the Ayatollahs, indeed all of the world’s Islamic leadership will have given their allegiance to him. To deny him at this point would be the ultimate shame for Islam. It would come at a time when Islam will universally be experiencing its greatest rush of vindication and fulfillment. In the midst of all of this incredible elation, to suddenly declare and acknowledge that an absolutely evil charlatan has deceived the entire Islamic world would be unthinkable. Once the deception has taken place it will be impossible to undo. The hook will have been set.

There will be other very important factors at play here as well. Throughout this time period, the False Prophet, whom the Islamic world will believe to be Jesus, will be working as the Antichrist’s miracle-working “campaign manager” as it were. As Paul the apostle says:

“The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

The followers of the Mahdi/Antichrist will be already in a deep spiritual state of deception. Add on some miracles that the Bible says will accompany the Antichrist’s career and most people will buy it hook, line, and sinker. When he asks the Islamic community to accept him as Allah in the flesh, most of the world’s people will be happy to accept it based on what will appear to them to be incontrovertible evidence.

So this is the fulfillment of Revelation 17:16, because the antichrist will no longer be satisfied with the political power of being Allah’s chief representative on Earth. He will decide that he wants to be acknowledged AS Allah. Anybody who opposes him in this will no doubt be destroyed, even if they had previously been a faithful follower.

(I should pause briefly to clarify something about this statement that I made a few paragraphs ago: “While many Christians with discernment will already have recognized the Antichrist by this point, it will not be until the middle of the seven years that the Bible says he will be fully ‘revealed.’”

There could be some confusion concerning when the Antichrist is “revealed”. When I say that the Antichrist is fully revealed at the middle of the seven years, that does not mean that he is not partially revealed prior to that point. In fact, people who are familiar with Biblical prophecy could possibly even be able to recognize the Antichrist as soon as he appears on the scene, perhaps even prior to the Tribulation. Certainly, with the commencement of the seven year covenant of Daniel 9:27 (which would seem to be parallel with the seven-year treaty predicted for the Mahdi in Islamic theology), anybody familiar with the prophecies of the Tribulation should be able to recognize this individual as the Antichrist at that point. However, many who are not familiar with the Biblical prophecies might not recognize him for who he is until he seats himself in the temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself as “god” (or as “Allah” in the flesh). It will be at this point that the revealing of who he really is will be completed and he will be fully revealed, even to those who had not already figured it out. It will be at that point that the entire world will have to choose sides and accept or reject his “Mark of the Beast”.

It should also be clarified that the prophecy about the Mahdi being successful at converting Christians and Jews is not what I say, it’s what the Islamic prophecies say. It would seem likely that “Christians” who actually convert to Islam will be those who claimed to be Christian but never had an actual saving experience with the real Jesus. This would be part of Revelation’s exhortations to “patient endurance”.)

This Mahdi-as-Antichrist scenario also explains a passage that most modern prophecy teachers have never been able to really deal with – Daniel 11:37-38.

“And unto the god of his fathers he doth not attend, nor to the desire of women, yea, to any god he doth not attend, for against all he magnifieth himself. And to the god of strongholds, on his station, he giveth honour; yea, to a god whom his fathers knew not he giveth honour, with gold, and with silver, and with precious stone, and with desirable things.”

In the Mahdi-as-Antichrist scenario this otherwise-confusing passage makes perfect sense: He will reject the traditional worship of Allah that his ancestors have practiced and will instead put himself in Allah’s place. He will in essence “hijack” Islam for his own purposes. The religion that has been most associated with hijacking over the years will, in the end, become the biggest hijacking victim of all time. It will be Antichrist’s Hijacking of Islam.

In addition, it is well known that Muslims’ treatment of women under Sharia Law is inhumanly cruel and barbaric, including the practice of polygamy, hence his ignoring the “desire of women”. As the ruler of the Middle East, he will be in control of the world’s oil supply which will give him a limitless supply of cash and his obsession with power as the world’s leader will lead him to amass incredible military strength to be at his beck and call.

Literalist-Luke

Oct 12th 2008, 09:31 PM

There are a number of different pieces of the puzzle. Not all of them seem terribly important on their own, but when you put them together, you get a pretty comprehensive picture that has pretty astonishing parallels with prophecies in the Bible. That’s the key right there: the connections between Islam and the prophecies in the Bible. Consider the following:

1. Throughout the Old Testament prophets, there are numerous passages where various nations are said to be facing judgment at the Day of the Lord. Most Christians would agree that the Day of the Lord has not occurred yet and will indeed be at the 2nd Coming. Without one single exception, every single one of the specific nations that are listed as facing judgment at the Day of the Lord are currently Islamic. Start reading the prophets during the next few days and you'll see for yourself.

2. Islam is the only “religion” in the history of the world that actually attacks other beliefs as a part of its doctrine. Other religions do not even specifically mention opposing belief systems and instead present themselves as if they were the only belief system around. Not Islam. Islam actually lists two other belief systems and goes out of its way (in the Qur’an, specifically) to deny the teachings of those other two belief systems. Who are those other two belief systems, you ask? Surprise, surprise: Judaism and Christianity. Now why would Islam go out of its way to oppose those particular belief systems? What not Hinduism, or Buddhism? Why not eastern mysticism, or Confucism, or Zin, or Voodoo? The answer to that question seems obvious to me: It’s because the other belief systems have the same author as Islam – Satan. And he’s not worried about opposing his other lies. He’s only concerned about making sure we don’t find the Truth, which can be found only in Judaism and it’s ultimate fulfillment, Christianity.

3. Consider this: When Muhammad came up with the teachings about the Mahdi and Isa, it was around the 7th Century, AD. During that time, most Bible teachers around the world were teaching that Revelation has to be interpreted allegorically and that we can’t really understand it. So if Muhammad had been merely trying to mirror Christian teachings, he would have had a very difficult time figuring out what to say about Revelation and the future, because even Christians of the time didn’t know what to make of it. Yet somehow, he came up with an amazingly accurate mirror image. How was that possible? Satan knows the Bible better than any human on earth. He was there when John originally wrote Revelation. Satan knows exactly how to interpret Revelation because he witnessed its writing and he’s had centuries to study it. Who better to forge a mirror counterfeit designed to lead his followers in exactly the opposite direction of where they should go to find the Truth? The “prophecies” regarding the Mahdi and Isa can only have come from Satan himself or at least one of his lieutenants. I can’t see how any mere human could have come up with that stuff on their own, certainly not an uneducated Bedouin trader like Muhammad was.

4. The Bible tells us that priority # 1 for the Antichrist is going to be the total annihilation of all Jews everywhere on the entire planet. If he were to have his way, the entire line of Jacob would be “wiped off the map”. There is only one religion that agrees with that agenda: Islam. Islamic children are taught from the day they pop outta their mommas that Jews are pigs and sub-humans who are unworthy of being allowed to “squander” the resources of the earth. They are taught from day one that there is no more honorable or glorious way to die than to commit suicide in the process of killing Jews. I have seen videos of cartoons in Iran directed at small children that hammer this message home to them. It’s absolutely stomach-turning.

5. Another prophecy that confuses many Bible students is Daniel 7:25 – “He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws.”

What does it mean that he will try to change the “set times and laws”? This is something that I have never seen a satisfactory explanation for. Unless we’re considering Islam. Islam uses a lunar calendar. Most of the rest of the world uses a solar calendar. We American Christians use a solar calendar. Our year is determined by the length of time it takes the earth to travel around the sun, so our calendar is solar. Islam’s calendar is exclusively lunar. They do not adjust for the earth’s trip around the sun. They are also the only belief system in the world that has the stated, express goal of imposing their calendar on their conquered peoples. There is no other religion that has the stated goal of imposing a certain calendar on its subjects, other than Islam.

The “laws” Daniel spoke of is quite simply Sharia Law, which is the total moral code of how a society dominated by Islamic beliefs should conduct itself. Just do a little studying of how life in the Middle East is (other than Israel, of course) and you’ll get the idea. The antichrist will attempt to impose his lunar calendar and Sharia Law on his territory, perfectly fulfilling Daniel 7:25.

So now you know how Islam and the Mahdi fit into the big picture of Biblical prophecy.

If you would like further information about Islamic prophecies concerning the Mahdi, Isa, and the Dajjal, there is an excellent online book that goes into much greater detail at this web address:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/index.htm

third hero

Oct 12th 2008, 10:59 PM

yup. I did... didn't I?

Ouch, and I thought that my posts were lengthy, and they are too! :spin:
Happy reading Moonglow!

moonglow

Oct 12th 2008, 11:53 PM

Wow Literalist-Luke..Thanks for all the information on this...very informative for sure and gives me alot to think about. :hmm: I am sure I will have questions once all of that information sinks in...

One thing I can't ever image is them excepting to ever have peace (under their prophecies) I mean look at how often they kill each other!

I didn't realize this book called Satanic Verses was about the origins of the Koran...first I had ever heard of it until this news story actually.

Too add to all of this information I wanted to also share that Islam is really being pushed on the internet on certain sites such as Paltalk. It has live chat rooms and on their general/social forum they allowed several rooms to have Islamic rooms on them...but would not allow other religions to have rooms on there...they all had to be in the category of being listed under religion. They also allowed one or two very aggressive atheist rooms to be on this general form also that would attack our faith very badly. The muslim rooms would have muslims on there constantly attacking our faith and some would just play a recording of a smooth talking man's voice reading the Koran while playing lovely music in the background. Those rooms were 'locked' meaning you could only go in and listen but not speak on the mic or talk. Challenges were not allowed. I would see people go in there and be impressed and think it was a lovely peaceful religion...:rolleyes: Then I would go to another room and hear the horror stories from those that used to be in it!

Eventually Paltalk became more focused on live webcams on the bad sort...this was pushed alot too! I went less and less over the years and haven't been on in several years now due to how things were going on there. Paltalk is huge too though I never hear of anyone on here mention it...it has a extremely large audience it does reach. Now of course the muslims have many, many video's on youtube...and fight against our faith and of course the Jews. Of course there are atheist on there rallying against any religion but do seem (finally) to be recognizing how dangerous this group is. They are very hard to argue against though as I said as they don't allow free speech on many of their video's. The comments have to be approved before they appear. Very, very controlling in other words, even on the net.

God bless

Literalist-Luke

Oct 13th 2008, 02:50 AM

I didn't realize this book called Satanic Verses was about the origins of the Koran...first I had ever heard of it until this news story actually.The Qur'an's origin is not the primary topic in The Satanic Verses. That book is actually a fictional novel, in the course of which the Qur'an's origin and its Satanic connection does get discussed at length, however, which drew the "fatwah" issued against Salman Rushdie, the author, back several years ago. To my knowledge, that fatwah has never been lifted.
Too add to all of this information I wanted to also share that Islam is really being pushed on the internet on certain sites such as Paltalk. It has live chat rooms and on their general/social forum they allowed several rooms to have Islamic rooms on them...but would not allow other religions to have rooms on there...they all had to be in the category of being listed under religion. They also allowed one or two very aggressive atheist rooms to be on this general form also that would attack our faith very badly. The muslim rooms would have muslims on there constantly attacking our faith and some would just play a recording of a smooth talking man's voice reading the Koran while playing lovely music in the background. Those rooms were 'locked' meaning you could only go in and listen but not speak on the mic or talk. Challenges were not allowed. I would see people go in there and be impressed and think it was a lovely peaceful religion...:rolleyes: Then I would go to another room and hear the horror stories from those that used to be in it!

Eventually Paltalk became more focused on live webcams on the bad sort...this was pushed alot too! I went less and less over the years and haven't been on in several years now due to how things were going on there. Paltalk is huge too though I never hear of anyone on here mention it...it has a extremely large audience it does reach. Now of course the muslims have many, many video's on youtube...and fight against our faith and of course the Jews. Of course there are atheist on there rallying against any religion but do seem (finally) to be recognizing how dangerous this group is. They are very hard to argue against though as I said as they don't allow free speech on many of their video's. The comments have to be approved before they appear. Very, very controlling in other words, even on the net.They're only just getting started. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Literalist-Luke

Oct 13th 2008, 02:59 AM

After all the material you've just been forced to read a video will probably be a welcome respite, huh? :D

Prepare to be shocked, however:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6jdwml_bN8

(And no, that's not me in the video, I've never met the guy.)

PS Make sure you watch this video in Internet Explorer. For some reason, my Firefox browser pops up an error message that the video is "no longer available", even though Internet Explorer plays it immediately with no problem. (Don't ask me, I just work here.....)

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 03:04 AM

The Qur'an's origin is not the primary topic in The Satanic Verses. That book is actually a fictional novel, in the course of which the Qur'an's origin and its Satanic connection does get discussed at length, however, which drew the "fatwah" issued against Salman Rushdie, the author, back several years ago. To my knowledge, that fatwah has never been lifted.They're only just getting started. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

and the fatwah means a death sentence right? So regardless of the laws in whatever country they are in they impose their own laws on people anyway...!! correct?

I will watch that video tomorrow...don't want to wake up my son with sound from the speakers. Besides I don't want to be shocked right before I try to go to sleep...:cool:
Thanks

God bless

Literalist-Luke

Oct 13th 2008, 03:37 AM

and the fatwah means a death sentence right? So regardless of the laws in whatever country they are in they impose their own laws on people anyway...!! correct?Yes, any Muslim who kills him will be considered to have performed a service for Allah, especially if they manage to do it in a country under Islamic Law. (So Rushdie should naturally avoid Islamic countries like the plague.)
I will watch that video tomorrow...don't want to wake up my son with sound from the speakers. Besides I don't want to be shocked right before I try to go to sleepNo problemo. :thumbsup:

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 03:09 PM

Well Literalist-Luke, I tried to watch that video and am getting this: We're sorry, this video is no longer available.

Now that happens alot on youtube and usually its just a bug and you can click refresh and it will play...but not on this one. I tried even going on this channel and finding it and clicking on it but still getting that message...:hmm: can you play it?

God bless

Literalist-Luke

Oct 13th 2008, 03:53 PM

Well Literalist-Luke, I tried to watch that video and am getting this: We're sorry, this video is no longer available.

Now that happens alot on youtube and usually its just a bug and you can click refresh and it will play...but not on this one. I tried even going on this channel and finding it and clicking on it but still getting that message...:hmm: can you play it?Well this is a bummer. I can't get it to play either. Rats. Let me see if I can find something else that gets the same point across. I'll get back with you...sorry. :B

SpokenFor

Oct 13th 2008, 03:59 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq9kvfhMWmo&feature=related

This one does a good job. I can't open the other one posted either and i'm using safari

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 03:59 PM

Well this is a bummer. I can't get it to play either. Rats. Let me see if I can find something else that gets the same point across. I'll get back with you...sorry. :B

That's ok...others have posted in the past websites showing the link between 666 and Allah..pretty spooky stuff! Oh I did watch this video about raising these children to hate and kill: Islamic Children Episode 1 Death To America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNO8VU2ZQHg)

Its so sad and so sickening! Reminds me far too much about how the pagans used to make their children walk through fire (i.e. throw them into fire as a sacrifice to their pagan gods). In this case they are brain washed into willingly 'walk through the fire' through suicide bombings..:( Dying this way is the only way they know for sure they are going to Heaven too (according to what their beliefs are)

God bless

Literalist-Luke

Oct 13th 2008, 04:25 PM

OK, good news, I have actually found the exact same video right here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESJ_zWiL-gc

Everything this guy says is absolutely spot on. It's not me, however. I have no idea who this guy is, but I sure like him.

Mograce2U

Oct 13th 2008, 05:06 PM

1st:
Has anyone noticed that there is already an idol temple sitting on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalm that belongs to Islam?

2nd:
Why are we taking the words of a false prophet deceived by a demon and using his words to interpret scripture?

3rd:
The reason Satan is able to make a parallel is because he already has experienced much of the things written in Revelation. And he has been somewhat successful in convincing men that these things are still future and have not happened yet - at all. A similar pattern can be found in the myths & fables the world has regarding the Garden of Eden and Noah's flood. Which is only because the truth of those events actually happened. Satan comes up with nothing new, rather what he does is pervert the truth in order to confuse men and turn them from their hope in God. And then thru signs and wonders and dreams, convinces men who then serve him willingly as false prophets of doom and gloom.

So rather than posting all this sensational stuff which appeals to carnal superstition, we ought to be trashing it; because it is of no value in understanding the record we have been given regarding our hope in Christ. All it serves to do is turn men away from understanding the true heavenly revelation we have been given and turn their minds towards things in the earth, which are not what they appear to be at all!

Satan has no light from heaven that he is able to give us. His kingdom sits in darkness. Whereas Jesus, the true Light from God is sovereign over all principalities and powers in the earth. And we couldn't be in found in a safer place than to be abiding in Him under the shadow of His wing.

(Gen 3:13) And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

(2 Cor 11:3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

(Col 2:4) And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

(Col 2:18-19) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, {19} And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Little children, watch what you eat! (Gospel 101)

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 05:17 PM

OK, good news, I have actually found the exact same video right here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESJ_zWiL-gc

Everything this guy says is absolutely spot on. It's not me, however. I have no idea who this guy is, but I sure like him.

Ok this is weird...the person in the video is VenomVangX who is a Christian...the person posting this video is not him and apparently stole his video for some reason...now VenomVangX is involved in reporting those that have stolen his video's and uploaded them to youtube...BIG battle going on over that right now! Its a copyright violation of their work...the thing is VenomVang actually copied others video's in the making up this one...:hmm: Wonder how that will work out.

I personally cannot stand VenomVang as most of the time he comes off with a holier then thou attitude and usually comes off very judgmental and hateful and only lets those on his friends list comment on his video's...but I will say in this video he did better in saying he wasn't trying to single out just the muslims as being sinners but pointed out we all are and all in need of repentance. So I give him a thumbs up for that.

Now to the actual video...good information and pretty much what I have read already on the net. Pretty scary stuff too! I thought it pretty odd the person that uploaded this (well copied it) has a muslim sounding user name and put alot of tags on that video to attach Muslims....I guess for a reason, huh?

Anyway if Venom finds out about this his video being on someone else's channel it will be removed. The thing is Venom has a huge following on there and many totally hate him so have copied many of his video's...I think it would be impossible to find them all and youtube remove them though youtube has been cracking down hard on this...so this video may disappear! I will see if I can find it on Venom's channel to give its link for it.

God bless

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 05:27 PM

Ok found the original video done by VenomVangY...he changed it from X to Y because his other account got suspended after so many muslims (and probably atheist too) flagged his video's...he was able to get a new account though after clearing things up with youtube. At least I hope this is him..sadly there are people on there that made up fake Venom Channels...:cool:

And I had a question on something he brought up in his video that you mentioned in one of your post Luke...but I waited until I watched the whole video and now I can't remember my question!! :B ugh! man I hate that...

Well hopefully I will think of it later...:rolleyes:

Edited..ok found his other channel (guess he has two which isn't uncommon on youtube) he still has his other username with the X after all...

God bless

Saved7

Oct 13th 2008, 06:15 PM

After all the material you've just been forced to read a video will probably be a welcome respite, huh? :D

Prepare to be shocked, however:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6jdwml_bN8

(And no, that's not me in the video, I've never met the guy.)

PS Make sure you watch this video in Internet Explorer. For some reason, my Firefox browser pops up an error message that the video is "no longer available", even though Internet Explorer plays it immediately with no problem. (Don't ask me, I just work here.....)

wow, now here's a big fat surprise...:rolleyes: "this video is no longer available." is what I got when I clicked the link.:cool:

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 06:17 PM

wow, now here's a big fat surprise...:rolleyes: "this video is no longer available." is what I got when I clicked the link.:cool:

Keep reading...he found the same thing on another video..same information...

God bless

third hero

Oct 13th 2008, 06:18 PM

Ok this is weird...the person in the video is VenomVangX who is a Christian...the person posting this video is not him and apparently stole his video for some reason...now VenomVangX is involved in reporting those that have stolen his video's and uploaded them to youtube...BIG battle going on over that right now! Its a copyright violation of their work...the thing is VenomVang actually copied others video's in the making up this one...:hmm: Wonder how that will work out.

I personally cannot stand VenomVang as most of the time he comes off with a holier then thou attitude and usually comes off very judgmental and hateful and only lets those on his friends list comment on his video's...but I will say in this video he did better in saying he wasn't trying to single out just the muslims as being sinners but pointed out we all are and all in need of repentance. So I give him a thumbs up for that.

Now to the actual video...good information and pretty much what I have read already on the net. Pretty scary stuff too! I thought it pretty odd the person that uploaded this (well copied it) has a muslim sounding user name and put alot of tags on that video to attach Muslims....I guess for a reason, huh?

Anyway if Venom finds out about this his video being on someone else's channel it will be removed. The thing is Venom has a huge following on there and many totally hate him so have copied many of his video's...I think it would be impossible to find them all and youtube remove them though youtube has been cracking down hard on this...so this video may disappear! I will see if I can find it on Venom's channel to give its link for it.

God bless

About VenomVang, he reminds me of me. Arrogant, matter of fact, brash. Only difference is that I am dark skinned with a low haircut, and he is caucasian.

Oh well. I guess that I'll be hated soon as well, but unlike him, I am even more brash. If Muslims want to attempt to kill me, I invite them to try. (Lord forgive me).

Saved7

Oct 13th 2008, 06:24 PM

Keep reading...he found the same thing on another video..same information...

God bless

Yah I saw that after posting....just had to make a sarcastic comment about the fact that it had been removed.:lol:

Saved7

Oct 13th 2008, 06:26 PM

Oh well. I guess that I'll be hated soon as well, but unlike him, I am even more brash. If Muslims want to attempt to kill me, I invite them to try. (Lord forgive me).

Hey!!!! No fair!!! That's cheating!!! Just cause you don't want to hang around here and want to go home before the rest doesn't mean you get to cheat and beat us all to the punch.:mad:

;)

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 06:27 PM

About VenomVang, he reminds me of me. Arrogant, matter of fact, brash. Only difference is that I am dark skinned with a low haircut, and he is caucasian.

Oh well. I guess that I'll be hated soon as well, but unlike him, I am even more brash. If Muslims want to attempt to kill me, I invite them to try. (Lord forgive me).

See how you are third hero...:rolleyes: :lol: Maybe its a guy thing but I find this drives people away from God, not to Him and I have a real problem with it...ok a major problem with it. This one was mild compared to his other video's too!

Anyway..sorry..don't mean to get off topic...(though I guess I can since I started this thread! :lol:).

I have seen testimonies of muslims that came to Christ not by being talked to so harshly though. Here is a video of one:http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=027454a783c841250ba7

Our goal needs to be not fighting against them (until we have too that is of course) but bringing them TO Christ. This is a spiritual war after all. These people literally can be risking their lives to convert. Calling them satanist right off the bat isn't going to be helpful in leading them to Christ.

God bless

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 06:28 PM

Yah I saw that after posting....just had to make a sarcastic comment about the fact that it had been removed.:lol:

lol...but yea I know what you mean...

third hero

Oct 13th 2008, 06:38 PM

See how you are third hero...:rolleyes: :lol: Maybe its a guy thing but I find this drives people away from God, not to Him and I have a real problem with it...ok a major problem with it. This one was mild compared to his other video's too!

Why do you think I wrote (Lord forgive me!)? That is one reason why I am not a missionary just yet. He still has some work to do with me. And yes, it is a man thing. :saint:

I have seen testimonies of muslims that came to Christ not by being talked to so harshly though. Here is a video of one:http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=027454a783c841250ba7

Our goal needs to be not fighting against them (until we have too that is of course) but bringing them TO Christ. This is a spiritual war after all. These people literally can be risking their lives to convert. Calling them satanist right off the bat isn't going to be helpful in leading them to Christ.

God bless

Great video. I am watching it now. Maybe I need to become a pit-bull too, when I see the Muslim that God directs me to. Seven years is a long time, but if he converts, then it would definitely be worth it.

third hero

Oct 13th 2008, 06:41 PM

Hey!!!! No fair!!! That's cheating!!! Just cause you don't want to hang around here and want to go home before the rest doesn't mean you get to cheat and beat us all to the punch.:mad:

;)
:P:D Wuhahahahahahahahahahahaha!

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 07:08 PM

Why do you think I wrote (Lord forgive me!)? That is one reason why I am not a missionary just yet. He still has some work to do with me. And yes, it is a man thing. :saint:

Great video. I am watching it now. Maybe I need to become a pit-bull too, when I see the Muslim that God directs me to. Seven years is a long time, but if he converts, then it would definitely be worth it.

Well if you notice he wasn't brought to Christ by a pit bull...only by someone that didn't give up...;)

God bless

third hero

Oct 13th 2008, 07:58 PM

Well if you notice he wasn't brought to Christ by a pit bull...only by someone that didn't give up...;)

God bless

Someone who does not give up, but locks onto someone and does not let go, has a "pit-bull" mentality. What I meant is that when the Lord gives someone to me....(Oh man, He just brought up someone to my remembrance....) I need to "lock-on", and not let go. Oops, you got that already......:kiss:

moonglow

Oct 13th 2008, 08:04 PM

Someone who does not give up, but locks onto someone and does not let go, has a "pit-bull" mentality. What I meant is that when the Lord gives someone to me....(Oh man, He just brought up someone to my remembrance....) I need to "lock-on", and not let go. Oops, you got that already......:kiss:

Ok I see what you mean...

lol sounds painful! :lol:

God bless

TexasBeliever

Oct 13th 2008, 09:38 PM

Moonglow

I think that Jesus' statement, "By their fruits you shall know them," speaks volumes about the role Islam will play in the last days.

They believe the whole earth should be subdued for Allah. They believe democracy should be destroyed and anyone who is not Muslim and not willing to convert is fair game to be mistreated and killed.

In the Bible, endtimes people who hold to the faith of Christ are to be beheaded; the execution of choice for Muslims. And there is a quote by Jesus (forget where) that says, "The days are coming when those who kill you will think they are doing God a service."
This is also a perfect discription of the Muslim mentality.

Mograce2U

Oct 13th 2008, 10:11 PM

Moonglow

I think that Jesus' statement, "By their fruits you shall know them," speaks volumes about the role Islam will play in the last days.

They believe the whole earth should be subdued for Allah. They believe democracy should be destroyed and anyone who is not Muslim and not willing to convert is fair game to be mistreated and killed.

In the Bible, endtimes people who hold to the faith of Christ are to be beheaded; a execution of choice for Muslims. And there is a quote by Jesus (forget where) that says, "The days are coming when those who kill you will think they are doing God a service."
This is also a perfect discription of the Muslim mentality.But it also fits the Spanish Inquisition and every other evil tyrant thruout history. So what else is new? I think because we see Israel occupied again, that is why we think her enemies fit the prophecy. But it is hard to say whether our generation is "the one" or not, based only on that. Chances are if Islam is subdued, another will rise up and we will be just as convinced those people fit the prophecy, and we will change our minds again.

If Revelation is a prophecy about the end of the world, it seems it needs to be more specific if we are to know what to do. Else why give a warning that no one knows who, what or when it is talking about?

moonglow

Oct 14th 2008, 02:52 AM

But it also fits the Spanish Inquisition and every other evil tyrant thruout history. So what else is new? I think because we see Israel occupied again, that is why we think her enemies fit the prophecy. But it is hard to say whether our generation is "the one" or not, based only on that. Chances are if Islam is subdued, another will rise up and we will be just as convinced those people fit the prophecy, and we will change our minds again.

If Revelation is a prophecy about the end of the world, it seems it needs to be more specific if we are to know what to do. Else why give a warning that no one knows who, what or when it is talking about?

Good point. I started this thread to learn more from those that feel this way about Islam in case I am missing something. Doesn't hurt to check it all out. But that is a good point. :hmm: something to think about for sure.

Luke I finally remembered my question! You and this video say that Islam follows a moon calendar while the rest of the world follows the sun calendar. But don't the Jews also follow a moon calendar? Alot of their holidays are based on the moon...even when they had their New Year they went by when the moon was a quarter full...something like that.

Later they were forced to follow the Roman calendar which is solar and that is now what the world follows..a pagan calendar. Even the months and days of the week are named after pagan gods..

God bless

Literalist-Luke

Oct 14th 2008, 08:07 AM

1st:
Has anyone noticed that there is already an idol temple sitting on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalm that belongs to Islam?

2nd:
Why are we taking the words of a false prophet deceived by a demon and using his words to interpret scripture?

3rd:
The reason Satan is able to make a parallel is because he already has experienced much of the things written in Revelation. And he has been somewhat successful in convincing men that these things are still future and have not happened yet - at all. A similar pattern can be found in the myths & fables the world has regarding the Garden of Eden and Noah's flood. Which is only because the truth of those events actually happened. Satan comes up with nothing new, rather what he does is pervert the truth in order to confuse men and turn them from their hope in God. And then thru signs and wonders and dreams, convinces men who then serve him willingly as false prophets of doom and gloom.

So rather than posting all this sensational stuff which appeals to carnal superstition, we ought to be trashing it; because it is of no value in understanding the record we have been given regarding our hope in Christ. All it serves to do is turn men away from understanding the true heavenly revelation we have been given and turn their minds towards things in the earth, which are not what they appear to be at all!

Satan has no light from heaven that he is able to give us. His kingdom sits in darkness. Whereas Jesus, the true Light from God is sovereign over all principalities and powers in the earth. And we couldn't be in found in a safer place than to be abiding in Him under the shadow of His wing.

(Gen 3:13) And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

(2 Cor 11:3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

(Col 2:4) And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

(Col 2:18-19) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, {19} And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Little children, watch what you eat! (Gospel 101)You must be an Amillennialist or a Preterist? If so, it's been nice chatting.

Literalist-Luke

Oct 14th 2008, 08:08 AM

But it also fits the Spanish Inquisition and every other evil tyrant thruout history. So what else is new? I think because we see Israel occupied again, that is why we think her enemies fit the prophecy. But it is hard to say whether our generation is "the one" or not, based only on that. Chances are if Islam is subdued, another will rise up and we will be just as convinced those people fit the prophecy, and we will change our minds again.

If Revelation is a prophecy about the end of the world, it seems it needs to be more specific if we are to know what to do. Else why give a warning that no one knows who, what or when it is talking about?If you had read Part Three of my post you would have already had those questions answered.

Literalist-Luke

Oct 14th 2008, 08:10 AM

Luke I finally remembered my question! You and this video say that Islam follows a moon calendar while the rest of the world follows the sun calendar. But don't the Jews also follow a moon calendar? Alot of their holidays are based on the moon...even when they had their New Year they went by when the moon was a quarter full...something like that.

Later they were forced to follow the Roman calendar which is solar and that is now what the world follows..a pagan calendar. Even the months and days of the week are named after pagan gods..

God blessThe Jews have a time every so often when they add a sort of "leap month" if I recall right. I haven't really read up on it, so I'm not on solid ground here, but the Jews do have some way of periodically adjusting their calendar to keep winter from winding up in the middle of summer. That would probably be a really good question to take to Fenris.

Mograce2U

Oct 14th 2008, 04:03 PM

Good point. I started this thread to learn more from those that feel this way about Islam in case I am missing something. Doesn't hurt to check it all out. But that is a good point. :hmm: something to think about for sure.You might want to keep in mind too, that Satan is not bringing us any light, whether thru the Koran or any other source whereby an "angel of light" appeared to deceive men. What Satan does is twist and pervert what God has said in order to appeal to the carnal desires of men thru fear. And Mohammed's "Messiah" fits the bill of what men already believe in error. Satan has no knowledge or insight into the future which God has planned. Nor is he laying out his plans to guide his followers - rather he is trying to incite them to disobey what God has revealed. The character of Allah is not one of love for men or love for truth!

Joseph Smith was already in error when an angel of light appeared to him to confirm what he already believed wrongly was true. This fits Mohammed, Bettie Eadie, and Carl Jung - and all false prophets. Who rise up in the world to oppose God's revelation to men. If there is anything we can know from listening to them, it is that Islam's prophecied Mahdi is not the Antichrist. Yet it feeds the idea that such a one is coming because men already believe it.

Mograce2U

Oct 14th 2008, 04:07 PM

If you had read Part Three of my post you would have already had those questions answered.But as Moonglow pointed out, Israel is already following a lunar calendar. So it sounds as though you expect Islam will restore this God-ordained calendar to the world - which would seem to be a good thing? After all, the Hebrew Roots movement is wanting to do the same...

Addendum:
Why would you seek Fenris to find light in what Christ is going to do?

third hero

Oct 14th 2008, 04:10 PM

But it also fits the Spanish Inquisition and every other evil tyrant thruout history. So what else is new? I think because we see Israel occupied again, that is why we think her enemies fit the prophecy. But it is hard to say whether our generation is "the one" or not, based only on that. Chances are if Islam is subdued, another will rise up and we will be just as convinced those people fit the prophecy, and we will change our minds again.

If Revelation is a prophecy about the end of the world, it seems it needs to be more specific if we are to know what to do. Else why give a warning that no one knows who, what or when it is talking about?

I have to say that I totally agree with you here moonglow. Throughout time, we have seen AntiChrist type rulers attempt to gain the entire world from the beginning, (starting with the fall), up to now. Just because Israel is now a nation again, that does not give us the right to say conclusively, "He is coming in our lifetimes". That is why the signs are there. These are the guides that we aree to look for and acknowledge when they come to pass. Although many of the signs have come to pass at one point or another, not once have they come to pass in the exact order that they were written.

Therefore, we ought to watch, and guard our hearts, so that we may not end up falling for the deceptions that plague not only the world, but the Christian community as well.

third hero

Oct 14th 2008, 04:15 PM

Joseph Smith was already in error when an angel of light appeared to him to confirm what he already believed wrongly was true. This fits Mohammed, Bettie Eadie, and Carl Jung - and all false prophets. Who rise up in the world to oppose God's revelation to men. If there is anything we can know from listening to them, it is that Islam's prophecied Mahdi is not the Antichrist. Yet it feeds the idea that such a one is coming because men already believe it.

Mograce,
I understand what you are saying, because you are equating Islam to any other false religion. However, if their Mahdi reflects our definitions of the Beast as accurately as theirs do, then we simply can not just banish those truths out of our minds. The whole Mahdi issue is a solid lead that could very well lead us to know what religion the Beast is most likely to use as the base of his religion. We can not simply ignore this evidence.

Mograce2U

Oct 14th 2008, 04:17 PM

Therefore, we ought to watch, and guard our hearts, so that we may not end up falling for the deceptions that plague not only the world, but the Christian community as well.TH,
We have found a point of agreement! I find that is the clear sign that we must watch out for in our day. Because Satanic deception is coming at us from all sides and thru many avenues. Which to me seems to fit the period near the end of the 1,000's of years.

moonglow

Oct 14th 2008, 04:21 PM

But as Moonglow pointed out, Israel is already following a lunar calendar. So it sounds as though you expect Islam will restore this God-ordained calendar to the world - which would seem to be a good thing? After all, the Hebrew Roots movement is wanting to do the same...

Addendum:
Why would you seek Fenris to find light in what Christ is going to do?

He was just saying to ask Fenris who is a Jew if they still followed the lunar calendar is all. But I found it doing a search:
http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm

The Jewish calendar is based on three astronomical phenomena: the rotation of the Earth about its axis (a day); the revolution of the moon about the Earth (a month); and the revolution of the Earth about the sun (a year). These three phenomena are independent of each other, so there is no direct correlation between them. On average, the moon revolves around the Earth in about 29½ days. The Earth revolves around the sun in about 365¼ days, that is, about 12.4 lunar months.

The Gregorian calendar used by most of the world has abandoned any correlation between the moon cycles and the month, arbitrarily setting the length of months to 28, 30 or 31 days.

The Jewish calendar, however, coordinates all three of these astronomical phenomena. Months are either 29 or 30 days, corresponding to the 29½-day lunar cycle. Years are either 12 or 13 months, corresponding to the 12.4 month solar cycle.

The lunar month on the Jewish calendar begins when the first sliver of moon becomes visible after the dark of the moon. In ancient times, the new months used to be determined by observation. When people observed the new moon, they would notify the Sanhedrin. When the Sanhedrin heard testimony from two independent, reliable eyewitnesses that the new moon occurred on a certain date, they would declare the rosh chodesh (first of the month) and send out messengers to tell people when the month began.

The problem with strictly lunar calendars is that there are approximately 12.4 lunar months in every solar year, so a 12-month lunar calendar loses about 11 days every year and a 13-month lunar gains about 19 days every year. The months on such a calendar "drift" relative to the solar year. On a 12 lunar month calendar, the month of Nissan, which is supposed to occur in the Spring, would occur 11 days earlier each year, eventually occurring in the Winter, the Fall, the Summer, and then the Spring again. To compensate for this drift, an extra month was occasionally added. The month of Nissan would occur 11 days earlier for two or three years, and then would jump forward 29 or 30 days, balancing out the drift. In ancient times, this month was also added by observation: the Sanhedrin observed the conditions of the weather, the crops and the livestock, and if these were not sufficiently advanced to be considered "spring," then the Sanhedrin inserted an additional month into the calendar to make sure that Pesach (Passover) would occur in the spring (it is, after all, referred to in the Torah as Chag he-Aviv, the Festival of Spring!). (more at the link)

I won't say I fully understand this...:cool: I also don't know if this is the same as what the Muslims follow or not.

God bless

Mograce2U

Oct 14th 2008, 05:00 PM

Moonglow,

I won't say I fully understand this... I also don't know if this is the same as what the Muslims follow or not. But what does it matter? It makes sense that the passing of the old covenant would also see the passing of the calendar that marked it out. And who was it that brought this change which now the whole world follows? Was it not the Roman empire? I'm asking. And Christ Himself caused the division in how we now count our years at the cross, so it matters not how Israel or Islam views these things.

Edit:
Besides, I doubt that either Israel or Islam is planting their crops and reaping their harvests according to this lunar timetable any more either.

moonglow

Oct 14th 2008, 05:16 PM

Moonglow,
But what does it matter? It makes sense that the passing of the old covenant would also see the passing of the calendar that marked it out. And who was it that brought this change which now the whole world follows? Was it not the Roman empire? I'm asking. And Christ Himself caused the division in how we now count our years at the cross, so it matters not how Israel or Islam views these things.

It matters because I would simply like to know...as you might recall I asked Luke about this and you brought this up:

Mograce2U

But as Moonglow pointed out, Israel is already following a lunar calendar. So it sounds as though you expect Islam will restore this God-ordained calendar to the world - which would seem to be a good thing? After all, the Hebrew Roots movement is wanting to do the same...
I realize that Roman changed the world's calenders so in the discussion I was trying to have with Luke is why place importance on Islam changing ours now as if it were following God's time table...cause it isn't...see what I mean? Sorry if that all got lost on here...

As I posted to start with I am simply wanting to learn more about this whole topic regarding Islam and why some feel they fit into the end times. Just so I know!

I am partial preterism and from my view point the tribulation happened in the past...along with the AC and all of that...that isn't what I am looking for on here in this topic. I realize Luke and third hero are still looking to the trib happening and the AC so I of course take that into consideration. I am looking for something else all together and this difference in our end time view on this topic, isn't important..at least not to me. I would rather get the information I want then get bogged down debating who's end time views are right at this point in time. That never gets anywhere anyway...

I would like to hear what you have to say too if you would quit being so grumpy about it...:cool: You throw out some vague things and I have no idea what you are talking about or what point you might be making. So speak up ...on here or on PM doesn't matter.

God bless

moonglow

Oct 14th 2008, 05:20 PM

Islams calendar:

Islamic months begin at sunset of the first day, the day when the lunar crescent is visually sighted. The lunar year is approximately 354 days long, so the months rotate backward through the seasons and are not fixed to the Gregorian calendar. The months of the Islamic year are:

1. Muharram ("Forbidden" - it is one of the four months during which it is forbidden to wage war or fight)

2. Safar ("Empty" or "Yellow")

3. Rabia Awal ("First spring")

4. Rabia Thani ("Second spring")

5. Jumaada Awal ("First freeze")

6. Jumaada Thani ("Second freeze")

7. Rajab ("To respect" - this is another holy month when fighting is prohibited)

8. Sha'ban ("To spread and distribute")

9. Ramadan ("Parched thirst" - this is the month of daytime fasting)

10. Shawwal ("To be light and vigorous")

11. Dhul-Qi'dah ("The month of rest" - another month when no warfare or fighting is allowed)

12. Dhul-Hijjah ("The month of Hajj" - this is the month of the annual pilgrimage to Mecca, again when no warfare or fighting is allowed)

I thought it was interesting so many months are tagged for NOT starting wars...why point that out if they aren't a warring religion? :hmm: :rolleyes:

Posted for information purposes only..oh and they did say they only follow this to observe their holy days other wise they follow the same one we all do.

God bless

Literalist-Luke

Oct 15th 2008, 04:29 AM

You might want to keep in mind too, that Satan is not bringing us any light, whether thru the Koran or any other source whereby an "angel of light" appeared to deceive men. What Satan does is twist and pervert what God has said in order to appeal to the carnal desires of men thru fear. And Mohammed's "Messiah" fits the bill of what men already believe in error. Satan has no knowledge or insight into the future which God has planned. Nor is he laying out his plans to guide his followers - rather he is trying to incite them to disobey what God has revealed. The character of Allah is not one of love for men or love for truth!

Joseph Smith was already in error when an angel of light appeared to him to confirm what he already believed wrongly was true. This fits Mohammed, Bettie Eadie, and Carl Jung - and all false prophets. Who rise up in the world to oppose God's revelation to men. If there is anything we can know from listening to them, it is that Islam's prophecied Mahdi is not the Antichrist. Yet it feeds the idea that such a one is coming because men already believe it.All of this is precisely why I specified in the very beginning of my very first post that the Qur'an is not Scripture. The only thing Islamic theology is useful for is getting a glimpse of the Satanic mindset. If we can get an inside track on how Satan is planning to play out his scenario, then it might prove to be useful information. However, I have never suggested, nor do I now, than anything but the Bible should be taken as authoritative.

Literalist-Luke

Oct 15th 2008, 04:41 AM

But as Moonglow pointed out, Israel is already following a lunar calendar. So it sounds as though you expect Islam will restore this God-ordained calendar to the world - which would seem to be a good thing? After all, the Hebrew Roots movement is wanting to do the same...

Addendum:
Why would you seek Fenris to find light in what Christ is going to do?I wouldn't. Fenris would know more about the Jewish calendar than I do, that's all.

However, your questions actually got me to redo a little of my research (never a bad thing) and I actually found some details that should clarify the issue. I'm adding this my copy of the article in my collection for future postings, so thanks for getting me to clarify that point. Here's the new material:

Daniel says that the Antichrist will desire to change two things - times and laws. Now we have already seen that the Mahdi will change the law by instituting the Islamic Shariah law all over the earth, but we have not seen any evidence in Islamic apocalyptic literature of him changing the “times.” The simple question however is, who else other than a Muslim would desire to change the “times and laws”? Besides the Gregorian calendar used by the West, there is also a Jewish, a Hindu and a Muslim calendar among others. Jews or Hindus however are not a people who would desire to impose their religious laws or calendars on the rest of the world. Islam however, does have both its own laws and its own calendar, both of which it would desire to impose on the entire world. The Islamic calendar is based on the life of Muhammad. It begins at the migration (Hijra) of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina.

Not only does Islam view the use of a unique religious calendar as a requirement, it also has its own week. Unlike the western week, Monday through Friday being the body of the workweek followed by Saturday and Sunday as the weekend with Judaism and Christianity using these two days for their respective days of worship, Islam holds Friday as its sacred day of prayer. This is the day that Muslims meet at the Mosque to pray and listen to a sermon.

Thus it quite plausible that the biblical reference to the Antichrist who will “try to change the set times and the laws” is a Muslim. As we look at the full picture, only Islam fits the bill of a system that has its own unique calendar and week based on its own religious history and a clear system of law that it wishes to impose onto the entire earth. Surely if a Muslim ever emerges who is as powerful as the Mahdi is described as being, then he will certainly attempt to institute both the Islamic Law worldwide, and the Islamic calendar and week as well.

Hope this clarifies the issue. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention. :)

Literalist-Luke

Oct 15th 2008, 04:49 AM

Christ Himself caused the division in how we now count our years at the cross, so it matters not how Israel or Islam views these things.I'll agree that the calendar is based on Christ, but He is not the one who "caused" the division. That was done under Pope Gregory, hence the name "Gregorian Calendar".

Mograce2U

Oct 15th 2008, 06:49 PM

Literalist-Luke,
Yet when Daniel wrote 7:25 Rome had not yet appeared - and they did this as well. 1st century Israel was under Roman laws, and the power under their own law was taken away. Hence the need for them to get Rome to crucify the Lord.

Does the Church have a calendar they must go by, or was it OT Israel? What difference does it make whether some of us are under daylight savings time or not? Because that is all this amounts too. Do you honestly think the Muslims will change the laws of the USA? And present day Israel will fight to the death before they do such a thing to her.

Your Muslim Antichrist is merely a pipedream from a false prophet who the devil deceived with his perversion of scripture. That it fits your ideas for Antichrist, does not mean the Koran has any light to shed upon scripture for us one bit. Surely you don't think the devil speaks the truth!

slightlypuzzled

Oct 15th 2008, 07:08 PM

I have long felt that Islam. it's spread, and the radical element in it was the biggest threat to Christianity in the coming years; perhaps even more so than the current economic situation.

I am trying to get a copy of the book, it will be interesting to see if this is treated, novelistically, like other stories about Jesus and His interaction with the women followers, particularly Mary Magdelene......I know the subject of Mohammads child bride has been a sore spot for many Moslems since Islam became a major religious movement in Western culture.

Mograce2U

Oct 15th 2008, 07:18 PM

I have long felt that Islam. it's spread, and the radical element in it was the biggest threat to Christianity in the coming years; perhaps even more so than the current economic situation.

I am trying to get a copy of the book, it will be interesting to see if this is treated, novelistically, like other stories about Jesus and His interaction with the women followers, particularly Mary Magdelene......I know the subject of Mohammads child bride has been a sore spot for many Moslems since Islam became a major religious movement in Western culture.I honestly don't understand why this is said. Is Islam's sword able to prevent the Muslim from converting in his heart to faith in Christ? A threat to Christianity is one that can subvert her saints from faith thru lies and deceit to believe another gospel. Somehow I don't see Islam being able to achieve that. That is as long as we don't make the mistake that there is any truth to be found in the Koran...

Literalist-Luke

Oct 15th 2008, 08:53 PM

Literalist-Luke,
Yet when Daniel wrote 7:25 Rome had not yet appeared - and they did this as well. 1st century Israel was under Roman laws, and the power under their own law was taken away. Hence the need for them to get Rome to crucify the Lord.

Does the Church have a calendar they must go by, or was it OT Israel? What difference does it make whether some of us are under daylight savings time or not? Because that is all this amounts too. Do you honestly think the Muslims will change the laws of the USA? And present day Israel will fight to the death before they do such a thing to her.

Your Muslim Antilchrist is merely a pipedream from a false prophet who the devil deceived with his perversion of scripture. That it fits your ideas for Antichrist, does not mean the Koran has any light to shed upon scripture for us one bit. Surely you don't think the devil speaks the truth!

I honestly don't understand why this is said. Is Islam's sword able to prevent the Muslim from converting in his heart to faith in Christ? A threat to Christianity is one that can subvert her saints from faith thru lies and deceit to believe another gospel. Somehow I don't see Islam being able to achieve that. That is as long as we don't make the mistake that there is any truth to be found in the Koran...I've tried arguing with Jerusalem=Babylon people before and wasted my time. No more. If the vast evidence I've presented in this thread doesn't convince you, nothing will. Cya.

slightlypuzzled

Oct 15th 2008, 09:00 PM

I honestly don't understand why this is said. Is Islam's sword able to prevent the Muslim from converting in his heart to faith in Christ? A threat to Christianity is one that can subvert her saints from faith thru lies and deceit to believe another gospel. Somehow I don't see Islam being able to achieve that. That is as long as we don't make the mistake that there is any truth to be found in the Koran...

Islam is making it hard or impossible to convert people where it is the ruling authority. It is gaining in precedence in Europe, where England is experimenting with Sharia law. It is the fastest growing religious movement, worldwide, and also in the US. The Moslem communities are becoming more aggressive as they grow in political power here....It claims Christ as a prophet, and suborns Him to Mohammad. It claims to be a true descendant of the original biblical writers, and the Jewish and Christian scriptures have been perverted from what they were, and the Koran is the only scripture that has come down to it's believers without change. It lies about God, the transit of revelation, and the validity of scripture, and it does so with a claimed fiat that new converts will give their very lives to defend.

third hero

Oct 17th 2008, 06:29 AM

TH,
We have found a point of agreement! I find that is the clear sign that we must watch out for in our day. Because Satanic deception is coming at us from all sides and thru many avenues. Which to me seems to fit the period near the end of the 1,000's of years.

You call it the end of the millennium, I call it just before the Great Tribulation. No matter what we call it, it IS the period before the Lord returns. I am sure that, no matter which POV we follow, as long as we come to the same conclusion, we will be alright. The point, guard heart, be strong and faithful, and last until the end, whatever end that may be. :hug:

DM888

Oct 17th 2008, 09:01 PM

That's exactly what they are planning to do, end free speech in favor of Islam. I read an article exposing this very thing. If any one is interested in reading it, you can find it on the bottom of the page following an expose of Obama in here:

I wouldn't. Fenris would know more about the Jewish calendar than I do, that's all.

However, your questions actually got me to redo a little of my research (never a bad thing) and I actually found some details that should clarify the issue. I'm adding this my copy of the article in my collection for future postings, so thanks for getting me to clarify that point. Here's the new material:

Daniel says that the Antichrist will desire to change two things - times and laws. Now we have already seen that the Mahdi will change the law by instituting the Islamic Shariah law all over the earth, but we have not seen any evidence in Islamic apocalyptic literature of him changing the “times.” The simple question however is, who else other than a Muslim would desire to change the “times and laws”? Besides the Gregorian calendar used by the West, there is also a Jewish, a Hindu and a Muslim calendar among others. Jews or Hindus however are not a people who would desire to impose their religious laws or calendars on the rest of the world. Islam however, does have both its own laws and its own calendar, both of which it would desire to impose on the entire world. The Islamic calendar is based on the life of Muhammad. It begins at the migration (Hijra) of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina.

Not only does Islam view the use of a unique religious calendar as a requirement, it also has its own week. Unlike the western week, Monday through Friday being the body of the workweek followed by Saturday and Sunday as the weekend with Judaism and Christianity using these two days for their respective days of worship, Islam holds Friday as its sacred day of prayer. This is the day that Muslims meet at the Mosque to pray and listen to a sermon.

Thus it quite plausible that the biblical reference to the Antichrist who will “try to change the set times and the laws” is a Muslim. As we look at the full picture, only Islam fits the bill of a system that has its own unique calendar and week based on its own religious history and a clear system of law that it wishes to impose onto the entire earth. Surely if a Muslim ever emerges who is as powerful as the Mahdi is described as being, then he will certainly attempt to institute both the Islamic Law worldwide, and the Islamic calendar and week as well.

Hope this clarifies the issue. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention. :)

If you can use it your welcome to it or pass it along. :D

http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm

Jude

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/cents2.gif

moonglow

Oct 18th 2008, 12:52 AM

That's exactly what they are planning to do, end free speech in favor of Islam. I read an article exposing this very thing. If any one is interested in reading it, you can find it on the bottom of the page following an expose of Obama in here:

Sorry but I have been hearing this for months now and its just another alarmist thing going on...everyone seems to think the president has all this power! And he doesn't! Look at Bush fighting congress for months and months just to get in some conversative judges on the supreme court! And not able to get them to help pass a national marriage amendment. The president can do nothing alone!

Besides that...IF this was true. then everyone that thinks the trib needs to happen before Jesus can return should be cheering this stuff on! Not dreading it...not if it means the Second Coming of Christ.

:cool:

Dani H

Oct 18th 2008, 01:46 AM

Fascinating.

Then again, it's entirely possible that the enemy has full "knowledge" of God's plans as set forth in Scripture (of which, by the way, he has no full understanding and can only guesstimate and conjure and try to counteract because the deceiver of the world is himself deceived) and went "nuh uh" and set out to devise a perversion of it, using such poor people as one Mohammed to do it.

So I'm not necessarily convinced that he is going to be able to bring such things about, no matter what people think. But hey, at least we know the plan so we can set our face to prayer to see what God wants to do about it.

I guess time will tell, eh?

Literalist-Luke

Oct 18th 2008, 02:22 AM

It's entirely possible that the enemy has full "knowledge" of God's plans as set forth in ScripturePossibly, although Paul suggests otherwise in I Corinthians 2:8 - "None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."
(of which, by the way, he has no full understanding and can only guesstimate and conjure and try to counteract because the deceiver of the world is himself deceived)Perhaps "deluded", but I would be careful about calling Satan "deceived". He appears to me to know exactly what he's doing. He's still going to lose, of course, but he's no dummy either.
and went "nuh uh" and set out to devise a perversion of it, using such poor people as one Mohammed to do it.You have to keep in mind what Satan's ultimate goal is: To keep people from coming to Christ. One way to do that is to come up with a system of prophecy that, when the predicted events in the Bible start happening, explains away those events with a false, negative interpretation of those events. Islam provides just such an "interpretation" to lead people during the Tribulation in exactly the wrong direction.
So I'm not necessarily convinced that he is going to be able to bring such things about, no matter what people think.Oh, I would be very skeptical about the prophecies of the hadiths being fulfilled as precisely as we would expect authentic Biblical prophecies to be fulfilled. After all, Biblical prophecy is a message from God regarding what has already happenED from His point of view, where He has already actually seen the future, because He's been there.

From Satan's point of view, however, rather than Islamic prophecy being a report of a sure thing from somebody who has already actually witnessed the future, Islamic prophecy is merely a prediction of the future written by one who has plans that he means to carry out. How successful he is at carrying out those plans precisely as predicted, only time will tell.

But the main thing is to recognize that a conscious effort is already underway to counterfeit the Bible's prophecies.
But hey, at least we know the plan so we can set our face to prayer to see what God wants to do about it.There's no need to pray about that. I can tell you exactly what God would have us do:

1. Resist as much as possible.

2. Spread the word - get the Gospel out.

moonglow

Oct 18th 2008, 02:39 AM

Satan knows scriptures very, very well and he knows what is written about his fate...his problem I image is he simply doesn't believe it! With his down fall being pride and arrogance...:rolleyes:

I agree with Luke here...satan's goal is to stop the spread of the gospel...and I believe he wants to be worshiped too. He tried to get Christ to do that in the wilderness..

Matthew 4

8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

What does Islam do? Worship Allah or die...

God bless

Dani H

Oct 18th 2008, 03:33 AM

That's why I put "knowledge" in quotes ... because only God knows the true meaning of Scripture and the full scope of His ultimate plans, so the enemy can only counterfeit what he thinks he knows. That is also what I meant by "deceived." Because ultimately, he understands neither the true meaning of Scripture, nor the power of God.

"None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

My point exactly. I was just giving a tiny glimpse behind the scenes because sometimes people forget why these "religions" are set up the way they are, and by whom.

Unfortunately, because he feeds off of fallen human nature, he is also very effective in his tactics. Or we (the human race as a whole) wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

Yes and amen on the spreading of the Gospel and resistance. :)

DM888

Oct 18th 2008, 05:11 AM

Spam!

Sorry but I have been hearing this for months now and its just another alarmist thing going on...everyone seems to think the president has all this power! And he doesn't! Look at Bush fighting congress for months and months just to get in some conversative judges on the supreme court! And not able to get them to help pass a national marriage amendment. The president can do nothing alone!

Besides that...IF this was true. then everyone that thinks the trib needs to happen before Jesus can return should be cheering this stuff on! Not dreading it...not if it means the Second Coming of Christ.

:cool:

I believe the tribulation will happen just as the bible says, Immediately after the tribulation. And no, the president can't do anything alone. The fact is that there's a group of people behind him who control him and all political parties as well as world events. They are called the Illuminati,
they create a problem, the people react, and they offer their solution in which involves more and more control.
These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Rev. 17:13

I believe that God called us to be watchmen and to warn the people, but people today want to call them "alarmist". That too is OK because people need to wake up!
Unfortunately America is Babylon and as predicted, it will fall and burn with fire. I sure hope that enough people will turn back to God before its too late. God can delay America's fall for the sake of His saints, but where are they?

Literalist-Luke

Oct 18th 2008, 06:40 PM

I believe the tribulation will happen just as the bible says, Immediately after the tribulation. And no, the president can't do anything alone. The fact is that there's a group of people behind him who control him and all political parties as well as world events. They are called the Illuminati,
they create a problem, the people react, and they offer their solution in which involves more and more control.
These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Rev. 17:13

I believe that God called us to be watchmen and to warn the people, but people today want to call them "alarmist". That too is OK because people need to wake up!
Unfortunately America is Babylon and as predicted, it will fall and burn with fire. I sure hope that enough people will turn back to God before its too late. God can delay America's fall for the sake of His saints, but where are they?I have been familiar with the theory of the Illuminati for a number of years. The big problem with this concept is the logistical impossibility of coordinating such a prolonged, complex operation over multiple generations. One person who it would be impossible to hide the Illuminati from is God. Yet there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that such a back-room conspiracy is behind the Antichrist. If the Illuminati were really the ones behind it all, couldn't we reasonably expect Bible prophecy to point in that direction? Rather, the indications given by the Bible seem to point very consistently toward Islam.

moonglow

Oct 18th 2008, 09:21 PM

I think what Luke is trying to point out is this...

Everyone is looking for who fits the bill in the beast in Revelation...who can exercise this control over the 'saints' as we see in Revelation 13...some think its the pope and the Catholic church and they study their history, their ways...some are looking for a single man to rise that will lull all the world leaders under him and get his cooperation...and they do the research on that. The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah and have a guideline of what that person has to fit in order to be the Messiah and the Muslims also have one that fits a certain description. So how do you watch for those signs...you have to do the research...study the enemy so to speak. This doesn't mean ANY of these people or group is put above our Scriptures by any means.

Every commander in chief in the military has to study the enemies tactics in order to have a chance of winning the war...at least knowing the 'signs' of when that enemy might attack. If they have a history of attacking at dawn, what does he do...let his men sleep in? No that would be crazy. Now by him knowing this does that means he is putting the enemies beliefs above his own countries beliefs? Of course not.

Alot of the most famous Commanders in chiefs in any military has studied the battles in the OT. Why..because they learned so much from them. As the OT says, God is a Warrior. He lead the Jews in many great battles and they never lost as long as He was the one guiding them. God in the OT told those men leading those battles what the enemy would do...what their intent was...what their beliefs were if they didn't already know. So of course its not wrong to look at their beliefs if they are a threat to us and Islam has been a threat to the world for a very long time now. So know their Koran only gives us insight to their way of thinking. And to think they don't study our bible would be foolish too. Of course they do. I see them twisting it all around all the time on the internet trying to tear it down. To try to undermine our beliefs and 'prove' we are wrong in calling Jesus God. They do this to try to get us to leave our faith and of course go to theirs...

This is a battle. Been going on the internet and in the real world for a long time now and we need to know what we are up against.

2 Corinthians 2
10 When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, 11 so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes.

How can we know his evil schemes if we don't look?

Anyway I have this website I had forgotten about..kind of an eye opener..
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/013-forced-conversion.htm
Muhammad did not seem to be at all bothered by conversions that were obviously made under duress during his lifetime. Mecca was a city whose residents and leaders detested him. Yet they all "converted" to Islam the day that he conquered them with an army so dominant that no resistance was offered. These even included his sworn enemies of Abu Sufyan and his wife Hind. Anyone who is familiar with their life to that point would find it quite a stretch to believe that their "religious epiphany" just happened to coincide with the sword at their throat (according to Muhammad's biographer, the exact words spoken to Abu Sufyan during his "acceptance" of Islam were "Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of Allah before you lose your head").

The Jews at Khaybar were not at war with Muhammad when he ordered his warriors to attack them. Even his faithful son-in-law, Ali, whom he chose to head the mission was somewhat perplexed as to the pretext on which they were to attack this peaceful farming community so far away from Medina:

Muhammad said: 'Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory', and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: 'Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?' Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: 'Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger' (Muslim 31:5917)

Before his death, Muhammad sent his warriors against pagan Arab tribes, such as the al-Harith, demanding that they either convert to Islam or be wiped out (they opted for the Religion of Peace). On his deathbed, he cursed Christians and Jews (Bukhari (59:727)).

Muslims are taught to follow in the way of Muhammad. Putting two and two together, Muslims down through the centuries have forced Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, pagans and others to accept Islam, either by bluntly offering them death as an alternative, or by making their lives so miserable (ie. taxes, denial of rights...) that the conquered convert to Islam under the strain.

Forced conversions persist among extremists. Recently in Egypt, a Christian girl was kidnapped and told that she would be raped if she did not convert. Another notable case was the kidnapping and forced videotaped conversion of two FOX reporters in Gaza in September, 2006. Neither of these examples of forced conversion was condemned by Islamic organizations, even in the West.

Since Muslims believe so sincerely that their religion is truth, they often can't help but feel, on some level, that forced conversion is more of a favor done to the subject - a case of the end justifying the means, which explains the lack of passion. It list their verse on why this is to be done.

God bless

Literalist-Luke

Oct 18th 2008, 09:56 PM

Good clarification, moonglow, thanks. :thumbsup:

Mograce2U

Oct 19th 2008, 12:09 AM

I must be the only one who sees a similarity between Islam's ideas of forced conversions and some who think this is exactly what Jesus will do with His "rod of iron". This is what comes of researching the enemy's deluded ideas and then trying to take that to scripture.

Paul's instructions to the saints in 1 Thessalonians Ch 5 say nothing about watching for signs as we wait. Rather he addresses watching for their spiritual preparation which is not for a physical battle at all.

moonglow

Oct 19th 2008, 12:30 AM

I must be the only one who sees a similarity between Islam's ideas of forced conversions and some who think this is exactly what Jesus will do with His "rod of iron". This is what comes of researching the enemy's deluded ideas and then trying to take that to scripture.

Paul's instructions to the saints in 1 Thessalonians Ch 5 say nothing about watching for signs as we wait. Rather he addresses watching for their spiritual preparation which is not for a physical battle at all.

Yea it does..

1 Thessalonians 5
The Day of the Lord
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

Matthew 24

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

Luke 21

29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

When we see what things? Those chapters cover it..worked really well for those first Christians..when they saw the Roman army had surrounded the city, they did exactly as Jesus said to do...they fled the city and were spared the wrath of God as He promised...

Luke 21

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

They were watching for all the signs Jesus said to watch for and were able to escape the horrible events that happened next. Image if they hadn't been watching for these signs?

I don't understand why you insist we are taking someone else's religion and making it scriptures when Luke has repeatably said he isn't doing that and neither am I or anyone else that I have seen. I also don't see how ruling with a rod means forcing people to submit to a certain belief. Psalm 23 say The Lord is my Shepard I shall not want, he leadth me besides still waters, thy rod and thy staff, thou shall comfort me....

All I see is you insisting we are doing something we are saying we aren't doing...even the bible says to not be unaware of the schemes of the devil...

Are we really suppose to sit around and ignore the signs of the times and expect God to just suddenly let us know or what? What do you want us to do?

God bless

Literalist-Luke

Oct 19th 2008, 12:38 AM

I must be the only one who sees a similarity between Islam's ideas of forced conversions and some who think this is exactly what Jesus will do with His "rod of iron".Are you suggesting that Jesus doesn't have the right?

However, you misunderstand the "rod of iron". People during the Millennium will be free to believe whatever they wish, just as they are now. They just better be careful how they act it out. Jesus' law enforcement during the Millennium will be swift and effective. He won't be putting up with any trouble during that time. But that's not a forced conversion.

And in addition to Moonglow's comments, I would add that Jesus Himself told us to keep a watch.

Mark 13:35-37 - "Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "

Mograce2U

Oct 19th 2008, 12:56 AM

Moonglow,
Like you said those early Christians were given specific things by which they would know when they were to flee Jerusalem. But the important part was so they would be able to escape the wrath of God coming upon that area. How do you intend to escape the wrath of God coming upon the whole world?

(1 Th 5:16-24) Rejoice evermore.
{17} Pray without ceasing.
{18} In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
{19} Quench not the Spirit.
{20} Despise not prophesyings.
{21} Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
{22} Abstain from all appearance of evil.
{23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {24} Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

moonglow

Oct 19th 2008, 01:16 AM

Moonglow,
Like you said those early Christians were given specific things by which they would know when they were to flee Jerusalem. But the important part was so they would be able to escape the wrath of God coming upon that area. How do you intend to escape the wrath of God coming upon the whole world?

(1 Th 5:16-24) Rejoice evermore.
{17} Pray without ceasing.
{18} In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
{19} Quench not the Spirit.
{20} Despise not prophesyings.
{21} Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
{22} Abstain from all appearance of evil.
{23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {24} Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Mograce2U, I don't hold the same end time views as Luke...as far as I am concerned the tribulation did happen in the first century and was for that part of the 'world' only. The end of the age was the end of the Jewish system of doing things. I am looking for something else entirely different then Luke is...I am looking for what happens when satan is released from the pit. My belief are that he was bound by the works on the cross Christ did...meaning he was not able to stop the spread of the gospel..could not deceive the nations anymore..once he is released though he will be able to stop the spread of the gospel and deceive the nations again. Islam may very well play a part in this.

Revelation 20

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I agree with your list for sure! But I kind of would like to know what's coming..

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

I think this passage can be applied to many things...

God bless

Mograce2U

Oct 19th 2008, 02:17 AM

Moonglow,
Coming as a thief; when He is least expected; to a world saying they have peace and safety - sounds like it won't be physical signs we need to watch. And Mat 24 goes on to say how the man of God can be assured his house will not get broken up. Remaining watchful so that one is not deceived seems to be tied to holding fast to the gospel we have believed. A deception than can subvert our faith from Christ is more insidious than anything Islam may be up to - because it is spiritual. Much like what Satan did at the first in the garden, and tried to do to Jesus in Mat 4.

quiet dove

Oct 19th 2008, 02:32 AM

Moonglow,
Coming as a thief; when He is least expected; to a world saying they have peace and safety - sounds like it won't be physical signs we need to watch. And Mat 24 goes on to say how the man of God can be assured his house will not get broken up. Remaining watchful so that one is not deceived seems to be tied to holding fast to the gospel we have believed. A deception than can subvert our faith from Christ is more insidious than anything Islam may be up to - because it is spiritual. Much like what Satan did at the first in the garden, and tried to do to Jesus in Mat 4.

Yes!!!!! I couldn't agree with you more!!!

Literalist-Luke

Oct 19th 2008, 02:38 AM

Moonglow,
Coming as a thief; when He is least expected; to a world saying they have peace and safety - sounds like it won't be physical signs we need to watch. And Mat 24 goes on to say how the man of God can be assured his house will not get broken up. Remaining watchful so that one is not deceived seems to be tied to holding fast to the gospel we have believed. A deception than can subvert our faith from Christ is more insidious than anything Islam may be up to - because it is spiritual. Much like what Satan did at the first in the garden, and tried to do to Jesus in Mat 4.
Yes!!!!! I couldn't agree with you more!!!I guess I'm confused why being able to deceive true believers would even be a factor. Jesus said Himself said it can't be done.

Matthew 24:24 - "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible."

Sounds to me like the true "elect" will be deception-proof.

moonglow

Oct 19th 2008, 03:01 AM

Moonglow,
Coming as a thief; when He is least expected; to a world saying they have peace and safety - sounds like it won't be physical signs we need to watch. And Mat 24 goes on to say how the man of God can be assured his house will not get broken up. Remaining watchful so that one is not deceived seems to be tied to holding fast to the gospel we have believed. A deception than can subvert our faith from Christ is more insidious than anything Islam may be up to - because it is spiritual. Much like what Satan did at the first in the garden, and tried to do to Jesus in Mat 4.

Ok....so all the other verses I posted about being watchful for certain things should be ignored?

I think you would need to tell all of those worrying about the mark of the beast this and who is the beast and so forth...all of those watching for the tribulation to start..watching for the signs...the stock market being a mess because it might lead to a one world economy which might lead to one type of money which might lead to it being the mark of the beast...

Islam IS stealing away Christians by the way...a deception for sure. The change in those Christians IS spiritual! This is what we have been talking about. They believe in Jesus too but as a prophet. Alot of their Koran includes the same scriptures we have in our bibles. While I agree that many cults and many other religions have lead Christians away all through history...we see satan's hand in trying to stop the spread of the gospel by killing the Christians. Other wise why would Christ also warn us about that?

Islam has and will continue to convert people by force...that includes Christians if you had read that one post I did. And you aren't concerned about being forced to convert?

God bless

quiet dove

Oct 19th 2008, 03:46 AM

I guess I'm confused why being able to deceive true believers would even be a factor. Jesus said Himself said it can't be done.

Matthew 24:24 - "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible."

Sounds to me like the true "elect" will be deception-proof.

Well, maybe I misunderstood Mograce, but I took her to mean the false teaching that is infiltrating the church, and deceiving, yes, even the elect, if possible. Take a look a new age/eastern mysticism...its in the churches. Not Islam.

Islam may kill a bunch of Christians, but that is a different matter, killing them and deceiving them is two different things.

But I guess this is derailing so I will drop it, didn't mean to start a ruckus.

Literalist-Luke

Oct 19th 2008, 04:58 AM

Well, maybe I misunderstood Mograce, but I took her to mean the false teaching that is infiltrating the church, and deceiving, yes, even the elect, if possible. Take a look a new age/eastern mysticism...its in the churches. Not Islam.

Islam may kill a bunch of Christians, but that is a different matter, killing them and deceiving them is two different things.

But I guess this is derailing so I will drop it, didn't mean to start a ruckus.Well, it does have to do with Islam, and the purpose of squashing free speech is to promote a lie that can't survive the truth.

Here's my take: The Antichrist will show up in the Middle East and claim to be Islam's long lost Mahdi. (Whether he will actually believe himself to be that Mahdi is another question entirely.) There will be another man who comes on the scene with him who will claim to be "Isa", otherwise known to western Christians as "Jesus". He will claim that He didn't actually die on the cross, that instead he was "lifted up" off the cross into heaven and he has been waiting there this whole time to come back and help the Mahdi to establish the religion of the "one true god", Allah. Both of them will have the power to work miraculous signs, such as we see described in the Bible.

The combination of sounding "close" to the Bible's teachings, along with real flesh-and-blood people performing real life "miracles", along with the steady worldwide growth of Islam combined with the steady worldwide decline of Christianity will be sufficient to convince thousands if not millions of people who had been previously occupying a pew in church on Sunday morning that they should instead be going to the local mosque on Friday and forget Sunday church. THAT is what I call the "apostasy", or the "falling away". (And notice that I got through the scenario without even mentioning when the Rapture occurs. :D )

quiet dove

Oct 19th 2008, 05:49 AM

Well, it does have to do with Islam, and the purpose of squashing free speech is to promote a lie that can't survive the truth.

Here's my take: The Antichrist will show up in the Middle East and claim to be Islam's long lost Mahdi. (Whether he will actually believe himself to be that Mahdi is another question entirely.) There will be another man who comes on the scene with him who will claim to be "Isa", otherwise known to western Christians as "Jesus". He will claim that He didn't actually die on the cross, that instead he was "lifted up" off the cross into heaven and he has been waiting there this whole time to come back and help the Mahdi to establish the religion of the "one true god", Allah. Both of them will have the power to work miraculous signs, such as we see described in the Bible.

The combination of sounding "close" to the Bible's teachings, along with real flesh-and-blood people performing real life "miracles", along with the steady worldwide growth of Islam combined with the steady worldwide decline of Christianity will be sufficient to convince thousands if not millions of people who had been previously occupying a pew in church on Sunday morning that they should instead be going to the local mosque on Friday and forget Sunday church. THAT is what I call the "apostasy", or the "falling away". (And notice that I got through the scenario without even mentioning when the Rapture occurs. :D )

Well, I would agree that someone is going to show up and convince all sides that he is the one they have been waiting for. I mean everyone is looking for someone to show up.

But it is just that the lie Satan told Eve seems like the lie that will get everyone capitvated, just like it did Adam and Eve. Even the Muslims have pride, and Satan does like pride.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Islam make a big problem for Christians at some point.

But I am impressed that you didn't mention when the rapture would be. :spin:

third hero

Oct 19th 2008, 03:25 PM

But I am impressed that you didn't mention when the rapture would be. :spin:

That's because literalist luke and I are in agreement in the timing of the Rapture....:lol:

moonglow

Oct 19th 2008, 03:43 PM

Well, maybe I misunderstood Mograce, but I took her to mean the false teaching that is infiltrating the church, and deceiving, yes, even the elect, if possible. Take a look a new age/eastern mysticism...its in the churches. Not Islam.

Islam may kill a bunch of Christians, but that is a different matter, killing them and deceiving them is two different things.

But I guess this is derailing so I will drop it, didn't mean to start a ruckus.

Yea you are always causing a ruckus on here...see how you are! :lol:

I agree with what Luke said...

And I think you are right in anything that causes the great falling away is a threat...whether its Islam or New Age or whatever.....so it fits in with this conversation...

I have seen video testimonies of Christians who have converted to Islam too by the way...I think its nuts...:rolleyes: Why would you want to be apart of a religion where you have to kill your own children if they get a divorce...or refuse to marry an abuser? (just to name one thing!) and the only assurance you really have in making it to Heaven is if you die killing infidels! talk about some hard 'works' there...

:(

God bless

Mograce2U

Oct 19th 2008, 05:03 PM

Moonglow,

Islam has and will continue to convert people by force...that includes Christians if you had read that one post I did. And you aren't concerned about being forced to convert?Did the Lord force me to convert to Christ? Or did He win my heart with grace and truth? And does He not sustain my faith thru love and mercy as I hold to the truth I have received by faith?

Islam cannot convert the heart with a sword, but it can however deceive by its lies. And all who have taken that path ARE deceived. Because they did not have a love for Truth. Which is my major complaint with quoting the Koran as if what it says ought to have any bearing on what we believe. We should be tearing down idols which oppose true faith, not trying to prop them up thru fear.

I have been homeless before and without a dime to my name, so perhaps I don't see this as as big a deal as some. Not that I would look forward to such a thing happening again. But now I know where my Hope lies and it is not in these comforable things I have surrounded myself with. In fact it was a bit freeing when I didn't have them at all.

"The sky is falling" is not the gospel we have received, nor is it edifying for the saints. "Look up for your hope draws nigh" however is both.

moonglow

Oct 20th 2008, 02:27 PM

Moonglow,
Did the Lord force me to convert to Christ? Or did He win my heart with grace and truth? And does He not sustain my faith thru love and mercy as I hold to the truth I have received by faith?

Islam cannot convert the heart with a sword, but it can however deceive by its lies. And all who have taken that path ARE deceived. Because they did not have a love for Truth. Which is my major complaint with quoting the Koran as if what it says ought to have any bearing on what we believe. We should be tearing down idols which oppose true faith, not trying to prop them up thru fear.

I have been homeless before and without a dime to my name, so perhaps I don't see this as as big a deal as some. Not that I would look forward to such a thing happening again. But now I know where my Hope lies and it is not in these comforable things I have surrounded myself with. In fact it was a bit freeing when I didn't have them at all.

"The sky is falling" is not the gospel we have received, nor is it edifying for the saints. "Look up for your hope draws nigh" however is both.

Overall I agree with you. Except on the covertion with force..that is fact, its IN history. I don't know why you think that didn't happen. This isn't about Christ forcing Himself on us so I don't know why you brought that up. Its about people being forced to convert to other religions.

I agree we need to rest in Christ but what do you think this verse means?

2 Corinthians 2
10 When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, 11 so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes.

God bless

Mograce2U

Oct 20th 2008, 04:38 PM

I agree we need to rest in Christ but what do you think this verse means?

2 Corinthians 2
10 When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, 11 so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes.

God blessI think Paul explained it here:

(2 Cor 2:17) For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Literalist-Luke

Oct 20th 2008, 05:34 PM

The bible is full of the word conspiracy. Just do a search word for conspiracy on any KJV bible and you will see. And you are right it would be impossible for any man to coordinate such a complex task of taking over the world, but if you are really a Christian you must remember who is behind it all (satan). He's been here longer than any human and he can corrupt any one to carry on his mission.This is very similar to what I’ve been suggesting about Islam being Satan’s flagship program.
The Illuminati work mostly through blood linesWhat bloodlines? The Merovingians? They’ve been out of power since the 8th Century.
GOD spoke of the serpent seed. Both seeds could have not come out of Eve, because he spoke about 2 distinct seeds.Then where do you propose this other “seed” will come from?
If you don't understand that there are a group of Satanic people working behind the scenes, you could be a candidate for falling into GOD's great delusion in which GOD Himself would sent to the earth for those who reject to receive the truth, that they may believe a lie (2 Thess. 2:11).It appears to me that Islam is the fruition of that very thing.
And lies is all we're hearing from our corrupt world leaders today lying their way to a NWO. I submit to you, that the great delusion has already began. I agree. That’s why Islam is currently the fastest growing religion in the world. It has already unseated Catholicism as the largest single denomination in the world. Statisticians are already predicting Islam to be the most populous religious group in the world before 2050. So you are very correct that there is a conspiracy already underway.
GOD Himself is allowing all this to happen because He is allowing Satan to use these people as vessels of dishonor to administer judgement upon this earth. I agree, Islam appears to be destined to rule the world, for at least seven years.
While Satan cannot operate in our physical realm he uses people to do His will until he can enter the soulless body of a DNA manipulated clone in order to reign on earth in a physical form.An interesting theory. Can you show anything in Scripture to back this up?
This shall be the Antichrist, son of perdition, Satan in the flesh. Think about all the UFO abductions and experiment done on humans in which led to our current DNA technology.Um, current DNA technology was developed by human scientists just like computers and light bulbs were.
These fallen angels called "aliens" have always collaborated with mankind. Do you also think that men is so smart to come out with this space age technology all by themselves. You may say yes to that, but not to the NWO conspiracy in which its all connected.You insist that there is a New World Order conspiracy taking over the world, yet you are not producing any evidence to support your claim. I can easily point to numerous articles and studies that show Islam becoming more and more dominant on a daily basis. Where is your evidence?
I implore all Christians to do their homework before no man can work!I did do my homework. The fruits of it are right here in this thread. Did you read it?
Read about the Illuminati planning all these events on a card game that dates back to 1995 in here:

Watch the video here: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8zEFKT7s75kA card game? We’re supposed to take a card game as convincing evidence?

OK, let’s look at what the card game says:

1. The cards say the Illuminati have taken over the school textbook publishing industry. No evidence such as names of companies or buyers or subsequent changes in texts is offered. Only an empty claim.

2. The cards say that subliminal messages are believed to be ineffective and are therefore not used – when in fact it is well known in the advertising industry that subliminal messages are indeed very effective and are used quite frequently. I even remember a few TV commercials that were clearly subliminal in nature. I remember being very amused by them.

3. The examples provided by the cards of subliminal messages do not demonstrate anything more than a twisted sense of humor by the graphic artists involved. I mean, hiding sexually suggestive messages in movie posters and frames is hardly akin to taking over the world. Besides, the video forgot to mention the place in Disney’s “Lion King” where the dust in the air spells “sex” and then there’s the infamous scene in “The Little Mermaid” with the overly excited priest at the wedding. Sick jokes? Yes. World conquering? Get real.

4. Now we have a claim that the US has earthquake-producing technology. A brief shot of an article discussing the US’s “earthquake strike” against China is shown. I found the original article here (http://redskynews.com/?p=167), on redskynews.com a website well-known for its carefully investigative and clear-headed reporting. (Ahem, cough.) In that article, an attempt is made at credibility by citing another article in London’s Times, right here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/article3981225.ece). Yet the Times article mentions nothing about earthquake-producing technology, only that on some isolated occasions, unusual natural phenomena have been observed in areas that were about to experience earthquakes. The Times article cites instances that go back centuries. So are we to believe, from Red Sky citing the Times article, that earthquake-producing technology has been around for centuries??????

5. Then the video claims that another card, referring to “population reduction” shows the World Trade Center under attack. This is absolutely laughable. If you pause the video and look carefully, you can see that, first of all, there are other buildings around the still-standing “World Trade Center” that are taller than the supposed “World Trade Center”. That should be impossible, because the World Trade Center was the tallest structure in the area until that time. In addition, upon looking even closer, the supposed “two towers” in question in the card’s drawing are actually one building! Whoever made this video is desperately grasping at straws here. And OK, the drawing of the smoke appears to look like a skull’s face. (The video calls it a demon’s face, but I’m not sure how anybody would know what a demon’s face actually looks like……) So what? The card designer got creative with the smoke. Why is that significant? Yet the video presents it as if it’s just one more proof of the underlying evil that is being exposed here.

6. Then we’re presented with the idea that the phone tapping initiated by the Patriot Act has conspiracy undertones to it. While I’ll agree that I’m concerned about the civil rights implications that such an action carries, I hardly see that phone tapping is the road to world domination. I mean, so they get to hear me talking to my girlfriend about what movie we want to go see tonight? Or they get to hear me getting hateful with the clerk at the bank that double-charged me for having an overdraft. What difference is that going to make?

7. Then the stock market is said to be “manipulated”. I imagine a large number of people would hardly find that surprising if it’s true. The problem here is that it’s just one more claim that is offered no evidence to back it up. The claim is made and we’re immediately off to the next claim. I suppose we’re just to take it at face value that the current stock market problems are actually being caused by The Illuminati and not by bad investments by greedy bankers who simply tried to take too many cookies out of the jar in one handful.

8. Oh, this is rich, now there’s a card claiming that Rush Limbaugh is involved with the Illuminati and that his cadre of “dittoheads” are unwitting accomplices. As proof, the video notes that a person in the cards named “Gordo Remora” appears to have Geraldo’s head and Rush Limbaugh’s “body”. I can’t believe we’re actually supposed to take this seriously….

9. Then we’re given a montage of various images referring to other hotbutton topics, such as the Catholic Church, out of control disease, World War III, gun control, and a few others. The idea apparently being that the Illuminati are fully in control of it all and that we’re at their mercy.

DM888, I’m really not trying to be hateful here, especially seeing as you’re fairly new to Bible Forums. I don’t want to just chase you off into the night. But you can’t just go around spewing this stuff and expect people to actually take it seriously. I mean, the best evidence you can offer to support your claims is a card game? I have spent a great deal of time in this thread drawing comparisons and parallels between the Bible and what it has to say about Islam and Islam’s own “prophecies”. If you’ve actually read my posts, you’ll have a hard time denying there’s some pretty striking parallels there. So I’ve offered some pretty substantial evidence. You can’t come along and ask people to just dismiss that based on nothing more than a card game from the previous century.

Here’s what I would suggest you do if you want some really meaningful dialogue on the Illuminati: First of all, start a new thread. The only people in this thread are those who are interested in the impact of Islam on the end times. That’s going to leave out a fair number of people who haven’t realized it yet and who consequently aren’t interested. Yet. You’ll get a lot more discussion by starting a new thread that can let people who are interested in the Illuminati know that here’s somebody who wishes to discuss it.

Secondly, you need a LOT better showing of evidence. I mean, it was very easy to poke your assertions full of holes. It only took me about one minute to use Google to track down the original article that the youtube video showed an extract of.

Good luck to you and welcome to Bible Forums.

moonglow

Oct 20th 2008, 06:04 PM

I think Paul explained it here:

(2 Cor 2:17) For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

I am sorry but I honestly don't understand how that verse relates to the other one I posted...:confused or answers my question.

Mograce2U

Oct 20th 2008, 06:23 PM

I am sorry but I honestly don't understand how that verse relates to the other one I posted...:confused or answers my question.The Satanic devices that we need to be wary of is how he tries to corrupt the word of God. The idea that Islam brings in converts thru the sword is not the problem we face from him. Our blessings are spiritual as well as the perils we face. What Satan does in his own kingdom is certainly distressful, but it is not his sword that can harm us - whereas the sword of the Lord should we forsake it - to follow after Satanic lies - can!

Edit:
IOW, we ought not go to the Koran, the book of Mormon or even the Talmud, to look for light to add to the word of God. For therein lies the danger of being deceived.

Literalist-Luke

Oct 20th 2008, 07:05 PM

The Satanic devices that we need to be wary of is how he tries to corrupt the word of God. The idea that Islam brings in converts thru the sword is not the problem we face from him. Our blessings are spiritual as well as the perils we face. What Satan does in his own kingdom is certainly distressful, but it is not his sword that can harm us - whereas the sword of the Lord should we forsake it - to follow after Satanic lies - can!

Edit:
IOW, we ought not go to the Koran, the book of Mormon or even the Talmud, to look for light to add to the word of God. For therein lies the danger of being deceived.

Here we go again with the "Antichrist isn't real" argument. OK, for probably the umpteenth time just in the last few months, let me clarify something. The way I (and most others here) have been using the word "antichrist" is technically UNbiblical. I do recognize that the Bible does not refer to an individual who is going to lead the final rebellion against God just before the 2nd Coming during those last seven years as the "Antichrist". It is a popularized term that has come to be accepted by the masses.

Nevertheless, Daniel, 2 Thessalonians 2, and Revelation all make it clear that there is going to be one or two individuals who will be responsible for leading the world in one final once-for-all time of rebellion against God's sovereignty on this planet that He created and their ultimate expression of that rebellion will be the attempt to annihilate all believers and Jews from the entire planet. It is future, it was future at the time Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse, and has never been fulfilled in the way that Jesus described, so we are still waiting for it. That person, the "beast" of Revelation/Daniel, or "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2, is a literal, real person that the Bible says in plain words is going to appear on our planet at some point.

The popularly accepted term for this person is "Antichrist". That usage is not encouraged by the Bible and is technically incorrect. I will admit that.

Now, here's the $1,000,000.00 question: Why is it a problem?

Could somebody please explain to me what doctrinal errors are resulting here in this thread as a result of our conspiring with the masses to "abuse" the word "antichrist"? I'll be watching carefully for an answer.

Mograce2U

Oct 20th 2008, 08:00 PM

First off I don't see anything in the Olivet discourse that infers that there is to be an attempt to annihilate all believers off the face of the planet - ever. It does mention several things that will afflict the believers - which that generation was to patiently endure until those things were fulfilled, but in the end the believers were victorious and continued to thrive in the earth. The scenario Jesus describes is concerning a day of judgment that is to come upon Israel in particular. And that day came as described and Revelation fits the details of that event - now past. So now that we have the type established, we can use it for an example of what all believers in every age must face. And as always, Israel was used to give us the example - for our spiritual understanding of what we must not do.

A lesson which is entirely lost on those who are still looking for a physical fulfillment as if these things did not happen according to the prophecies which were given. Was not the Babylon capitivity to replace the importance of the Exodus once Israel was restored to the land and began awaiting the arrival of Messiah? What I see happening is that we are trying to undo what was given to Israel which concerned the day of their redemption and move it past the cross as if that event were not near so important for her consideration as an earthly kingdom; or that her rejection of her very Hope would not have eternal consequences for this same kingdom idea we now promote in her stead.

Some lessons just seem to go over our heads as we look to the earth for what was given to us from heaven for our understanding. And the enemy is doing this to us with our zealous compliance. It is typical of his bait and switch tactics which gets us looking to him and listening to what he does & says to pervert the word of God in our minds. And why does he try to do this to us? To get us to disobey the Lord so that the Lord will have to judge us. Which He will only do if we, like Israel, deny the Lord who bought us.

Doctrinal abuse? Where should I begin...?

Literalist-Luke

Oct 20th 2008, 08:18 PM

First off I don't see anything in the Olivet discourse that infers that there is to be an attempt to annihilate all believers off the face of the planet - ever. It’s not there, it’s in Revelation 13, Daniel 7 and Zechariah 14.
It does mention several things that will afflict the believers - which that generation was to patiently endure until those things were fulfilled, but in the end the believers were victorious and continued to thrive in the earth. The scenario Jesus describes is concerning a day of judgment that is to come upon Israel in particular. The parts regarding the Temple, yes. The others have a worldwide scope to them.
And that day came as described and Revelation fits the details of that event - now past.Then perhaps you’ll be good enough to explain when all the grass was burned up and 1/3 of the trees burned up as specified in one of the trumpet judgments.
So now that we have the type established, we can use it for an example of what all believers in every age must face. And as always, Israel was used to give us the example - for our spiritual understanding of what we must not do. And that specific lesson was…….?
A lesson which is entirely lost on those who are still looking for a physical fulfillment as if these things did not happen according to the prophecies which were given. Was not the Babylon capitivity to replace the importance of the Exodus once Israel was restored to the land and began awaiting the arrival of Messiah?I’m not following you here.
What I see happening is that we are trying to undo what was given to Israel which concerned the day of their redemption and move it past the cross as if that event were not near so important for her consideration as an earthly kingdom; or that her rejection of her very Hope would not have eternal consequences for this same kingdom idea we now promote in her stead. What I see happening is that the final fulfillment of the Kingdom promises to Israel are still yet to be fulfilled.
Some lessons just seem to go over our heads as we look to the earth for what was given to us from heaven for our understanding. And the enemy is doing this to us with our zealous compliance. It is typical of his bait and switch tactics which gets us looking to him and listening to what he does & says to pervert the word of God in our minds. And why does he try to do this to us? To get us to disobey the Lord so that the Lord will have to judge us. Which He will only do if we, like Israel, deny the Lord who bought us.

Doctrinal abuse? Where should I begin...?With something specific instead of such blanket generalizations that accomplish nothing. Besides, I said "doctrinal error", not "abuse". Please explain for me, if you are right in your point of view, what is Jesus going to scold me for when He returns?

moonglow

Oct 20th 2008, 08:23 PM

The Satanic devices that we need to be wary of is how he tries to corrupt the word of God. The idea that Islam brings in converts thru the sword is not the problem we face from him. Our blessings are spiritual as well as the perils we face. What Satan does in his own kingdom is certainly distressful, but it is not his sword that can harm us - whereas the sword of the Lord should we forsake it - to follow after Satanic lies - can!

Edit:
IOW, we ought not go to the Koran, the book of Mormon or even the Talmud, to look for light to add to the word of God. For therein lies the danger of being deceived.

And because the futurist looks at Revelation and sees an Antichrist who they say must yet still come in our future; yet they do not listen to what John and the other apostles say about who those many antichrists were that were already present in their day - they go outside the scripture to find him. And vain imaginations and speculations fill their thoughts. How else is a lie going to proceed and gain any ground if not in this way?

We aren't looking for the 'light' in other words though. you keep saying that...and we keep saying no we aren't. I don't know how I can be any clearer on this. I think we are seriously misunderstanding each other actually. Yes Jesus said their would be many antichrist and they were then and now...I see Islam as very 'antichrist'..they deny Jesus is the Son of God. Couldn't be MORE antichrist then that!

The idea that Islam brings in converts thru the sword is not the problem we face from him.

I guess you didn't see what I posted before where Christians WERE forced to convert by the threat of the sword. They DID convert! They either converted by that or by the heavy oppression laid on them...not allowed to do anything, higher taxes so they couldn't feed their own children and finally gave into the pressure. Why are you denying that happened?

What I see you doing is me showing you a historical document of something that happened and you standing their going, no it didn't happen. Or me showing you the ruins of a building blown up and you saying no that didn't happen , the building is still standing there. To me that makes no sense to deny something happened that really did happen!

Mograce2U...I truly am trying to understand what you are saying here...but I honestly don't understand. I am sorry.

God bless

SpokenFor

Oct 21st 2008, 02:47 PM

I guess you didn't see what I posted before where Christians WERE forced to convert by the threat of the sword. They DID convert! They either converted by that or by the heavy oppression laid on them...not allowed to do anything, higher taxes so they couldn't feed their own children and finally gave into the pressure. Why are you denying that happened?

Do you (not directed at anyone specifically) think that these people who CONVERTED to Islam were true Christians to begin with? If they were truly saved they would have gladly given their life for His sake. Economic pressure and hunger "forcing" them to convert? :eek: Yikes! Not much of a sure foundation in Christ.

moonglow

Oct 21st 2008, 04:04 PM

Do you (not directed at anyone specifically) think that these people who CONVERTED to Islam were true Christians to begin with? If they were truly saved they would have gladly given their life for His sake. Economic pressure and hunger "forcing" them to convert? :eek: Yikes! Not much of a sure foundation in Christ.

I would call them weak human beings...nothing more! The thing people don't get is none of us could handle this on our own...God would have to carry us through. How many would keep their faith while watching their children slowly starve to death? None of us. Its God that gives us our faith and only God could carry us through such things...

I would never put down those that went through this...its not our place to judge such things while sitting in our nice warm safe homes...

God bless

SpokenFor

Oct 21st 2008, 06:00 PM

Its God that gives us our faith and only God could carry us through such things...

So, what happened with these people? Didn't God carry them through?

Now that they have converted to Islam, do you think they are going to Heaven or Hell when they die?

I have not watched my child starve to death, but I have a special needs child who has been at deaths door more than once. Each time it has happened, my husband has gotten mad at God and turned away from Him because my husband is not a Christian, and each time it draws me closer into the arms of Jesus. We simply cannot love our own children, spouses or our own lives more than we love Jesus Christ.

Why is it that I am not allowed to judge, but you can? Don't tell me that you haven't judged them...you have..your judgement is simply that you agree with them whereas my judgement is that I do not agree with what they have done.

moonglow

Oct 21st 2008, 06:13 PM

So, what happened with these people? Didn't God carry them through?

Now that they have converted to Islam, do you think they are going to Heaven or Hell when they die?

I have not watched my child starve to death, but I have a special needs child who has been at deaths door more than once. Each time it has happened, my husband has gotten mad at God and turned away from Him because my husband is not a Christian, and each time it draws me closer into the arms of Jesus. We simply cannot love our own children, spouses or our own lives more than we love Jesus Christ.

Why is it that I am not allowed to judge, but you can? Don't tell me that you haven't judged them...you have..your judgement is simply that you agree with them whereas my judgement is that I do not agree with what they have done.

I am sorry about your child...I truly am and I am sorry I made you so angry. I don't think when I said we cannot judge...that was judging on my part...:confused

SpokenFor

Oct 22nd 2008, 02:36 PM

I am sorry about your child...I truly am and I am sorry I made you so angry.

Thank you, but I'm not angry and this isn't about my child. Her life and her health are in God's hands. He is our provider and our rock. No threat of death (to me or either of my children) or famine or distress or persecution or nakedness would cause me to convert to Islam.

I don't think when I said we cannot judge...that was judging on my part...:confused

You have already judged the actions of these people in India or wherever. You have judged that they are weak humans and that anyone else in their position would do the same thing. MY judgement of their actions is that they were not true Christians - just false converts- to begin with. We are both judging..we have just come to separate conclusions. Obviously I do not know the whole situation and neither can I know their hearts - only God knows.

How can a true Christian...who KNOWS that Jesus is the only way, the only truth and the only life (John 14:6)...convert to any other religion? :o What profiteth that man? To gain a few more days? month? years? in this life but to lose his soul? (Mark 8:36) No - a true Christian would say, "for me to live is Christ but TO DIE IS TO GAIN" (Phil 1:21)

moonglow

Oct 22nd 2008, 04:36 PM

Thank you, but I'm not angry and this isn't about my child. Her life and her health are in God's hands. He is our provider and our rock. No threat of death (to me or either of my children) or famine or distress or persecution or nakedness would cause me to convert to Islam.

You have already judged the actions of these people in India or wherever. You have judged that they are weak humans and that anyone else in their position would do the same thing. MY judgement of their actions is that they were not true Christians - just false converts- to begin with. We are both judging..we have just come to separate conclusions. Obviously I do not know the whole situation and neither can I know their hearts - only God knows.

How can a true Christian...who KNOWS that Jesus is the only way, the only truth and the only life (John 14:6)...convert to any other religion? :o What profiteth that man? To gain a few more days? month? years? in this life but to lose his soul? (Mark 8:36) No - a true Christian would say, "for me to live is Christ but TO DIE IS TO GAIN" (Phil 1:21)

I am sorry but you sound angry..so angry in fact that I may not reply to anymore of your replies. I feel very attacked by your posts whether you meant it or not.

I said we are all weak human that can do nothing on our own. I said this because that is what the bible says...without God we can do nothing. I didn't say 'they' were weak...I was referring to any of us that try to do it on our own

John 15:5
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing

If they were trying to maintain their faith in God on their own they would fail..we all would under these situations.

Merton

Oct 22nd 2008, 10:44 PM

I guess I'm confused why being able to deceive true believers would even be a factor. Jesus said Himself said it can't be done.

Matthew 24:24 - "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible."

Sounds to me like the true "elect" will be deception-proof.

Look back before verse 24 and you will see that Christ is warning his disciples about the possibility of their being deceived, and by other things than lying signs and wonders even at the time of verse 24.

The time of verse 24 is not during the former times.

The deceiving of the elect comes about because they look for signs instead of working righteousness (Isaiah ch 58) .

"Watching" in the Bible is not in looking for signs but in being awake to righteousness and not sinning, for if one is Holy then one will be given right understanding of happenings, while sinners will be deceived by them.

Merton

Literalist-Luke

Oct 23rd 2008, 12:53 AM

Look back before verse 24 and you will see that Christ is warning his disciples about the possibility of their being deceived, and by other things than lying signs and wonders even at the time of verse 24.Well, I see Jesus warning them so as to prevent them from being deceived, but then I also see in John 10:4-5 Jesus saying, "His sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." So it appears to me that true believers will not fall for the deception. The implication would seem to be that if anybody were to fall for the deception, then they're not a true believer.
The time of verse 24 is not during the former times.What do you mean by "former times"?
The deceiving of the elect comes about because they look for signs instead of working righteousness (Isaiah ch 58).First of all, Isaiah is addressed to Israel, not the Church (although we can obviously take general principles from it). Secondly, where in Isaiah 58 does it mention "signs"? I must be missing your point...
"Watching" in the Bible is not in looking for signs but in being awake to righteousness and not sinning, for if one is Holy then one will be given right understanding of happenings, while sinners will be deceived by them.So what is that "right understanding of happenings"?

DurbanDude

Nov 13th 2008, 03:40 PM

5. The teaching of the Antichrist being “Roman” (based on Daniel 9:26) is no problem for this scenario. The Roman Empire, at its greatest extent, went all the way to today’s eastern boundary of Iraq. In addition, there were three Roman legions that destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The largest legion was the 5th Legion, the “Legio V Macedonica”. This was a conscript army, meaning the soldiers were drawn from a particular region. The legion usually bore the name of the region from which the soldiers were drawn. The Legio V Macedonica had soldiers from all over Syria, Jordan, Arabia, Modern Iraq and Iran, and other parts of the Middle East. The actual people (to use the same word as Daniel 9:26) who destroyed the “city and the sanctuary” (as predicted by Daniel) were indeed working for Rome, but they were from areas that are currently Islamic.
.

LL , I agree with you wholeheartedly about Islam taking the dominant role towards the end-times. The information that you posted some time back was an absolute eye-opener for me,
but I still believe Rome is the empire that will rule Islam at the end.

LL ,I remember having a long debate about this with you some time back , and then you seemed to agree with me that it is in fact Rome (that is the empire traditionally regarded as the fourth kingdom) , that will rise up to rule the earth. I feel there is no evidence to suggest that Islam will be in ultimate control , please read my response below:

We need to understand that the Antichrist will not demand worship until well after he has been universally acknowledged and accepted by the Islamic world as the “Mahdi”. The Imams, mullahs, sheikhs, and the Ayatollahs, indeed all of the world’s Islamic leadership will have given their allegiance to him. To deny him at this point would be the ultimate shame for Islam. It would come at a time when Islam will universally be experiencing its greatest rush of vindication and fulfillment. In the midst of all of this incredible elation, to suddenly declare and acknowledge that an absolutely evil charlatan has deceived the entire Islamic world would be unthinkable. Once the deception has taken place it will be impossible to undo. The hook will have been set.
.

Let us assume that behind the scenes even in current politics, there is a subtle wordly war going on between 3 religions, Islam, Jews, Catholic. They are all trying to dominate world power , yet Islam is the most aggressive militarily and is gaining financial power, and the Jews and Catholics have financial and military power through various governments they influence. A more likely interpretation of what you are saying above is that Satan doesn't just suddenly deceive Islam, but Satan orchestrates the whole scenario using its old religious whore system , Rome. Rome (RCI) starts assisting Islam to gain more power - maybe even through the MU, sets up the Mahdi (with the support of the last Pope most likely, the pope according to Catholics does represent Christ on earth), then deceives Islam. The Mahdi (the antichrist) only dares stand up to his main supporter Rome at the end when the antichrist (Mahdi) and the ten regions destroy Rome.

This is a more biblical interpretation of events , we cannot assume Islam is the dominant force just because its satanic prophecy says it will be. Let's rather base our beliefs on the bible that says that Rome will be the final dominant empire , Rome will set up the antichrist ,the antichrist will be set up in Israel , with the support of the false prophet (Islam is the false prophet- their religion is based on the false prophet Mohamed). Even the imagery of the final beast states that the beast will have the mouth (vocal support) of a lion (which is Babylon - Iran) and the feet (going forth of a doctrine) of a bear (which is Persia - Iraq). It only seems possible that Islam will support the antichrist if the antichrist is the Mahdi , as you have suggested. According to Revelation 17:18 , the beast is ridden by the city that ruled over kings 2000 years ago, Rome.

I'm not disagreeing with what you say about the potential for Islam to fulfil its own prophecy , just emphasising that we must not try and fit the bible into this evil prophecy , but rather look at this prophecy through the bible.

DurbanDude

Nov 15th 2008, 09:35 AM

Sorry I got the countries the wrong way around in the above post , Babylon is represented by the lion , which is modern day Iraq.