I think we ve missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It s not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge. It s really about

Message 1 of 21
, Oct 3, 2005

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I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It's not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge. It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday spark another interest in an avocation or vocation. All the badges are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet their appetite. By screening the scout we are denying him that opportunity. We aren't training genuises here. We are giving the scout a bit of information about the subject. Some badges they will like. Some they will not. But by all means let them be the judge of that. Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally capable. I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be physically capable of doing. I don't think Radio MB is one of those. We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them, regardless of the age, learned
something about the subject. And that is the real purpose of the program.

Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:

By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10- and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.

73 de Fred

At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:>Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,>and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree>with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have phrased it.>>If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in>the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then they> won't know what you are talking about.>>My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up>for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but then I>took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no prior>knowledge, rotating the scouts
through a series of separate classes in>specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in>one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a>genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.>>It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of>scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,>then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at>school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can>incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that>anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.>>Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach>a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults>who forgot all their physics a long time ago.>>73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
>>--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@m...> wrote:>> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against>BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before>taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't say I>know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to>determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout Camp>setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More>specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that>younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,>and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning>there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out>Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not>unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be
First>Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any>longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an>exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit>badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better>advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.>>>> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,>particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a>first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout working>on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM>hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a particular>merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most>11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year>old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing,
Small-Boat>Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do>not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to>spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before>even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it may be>even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old>Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household>110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I>start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger Scouts to>whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes glaze>over.>>>> 73 de Fred K2FRD>>>> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:>> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that aren't>in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might>get
into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's>better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a partial>than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off on the>badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take that>badge.

The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class rank usually completed by age 12. In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow

Message 2 of 21
, Oct 3, 2005

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The merit badge program is to be started after attaining the First Class
rank usually completed by age 12.
In the Troop I was involved with we did not allow youth to do merit
badges until after they completed the New Scout program.
The New Scout program got them to First Class. At Scout Camp we had them
do some of the simpler merit badges that were usually in the handicraft
area.
After completion of the New Scout program they were allowed to take what
ever they wanted to with guidence from the Scoutmaster and Assistant
Scoutmasters.
So, no I don't think we have missed the point. The merit badges we are
talking about are not required. So, we don't want the Scouts to struggle
through them.
We want them to have fun with them and, oh by the way they might learn
something, too.

Al Katzman wrote:

> I think we've missed the point of the Merit Badge program here. It's
> not if the person is agewise mentally capable of learning the badge.
> It's really about teaching the scout an interest that may someday
> spark another interest in an avocation or vocation. All the badges
> are designed to teach scouts a little bit about the subject to whet
> their appetite. By screening the scout we are denying him that
> opportunity. We aren't training genuises here. We are giving the
> scout a bit of information about the subject. Some badges they will
> like. Some they will not. But by all means let them be the judge of
> that. Before one jumps on this note I said in the beginning mentally
> capable. I realize there are some badges that the scout may not be
> physically capable of doing. I don't think Radio MB is one of those.
> We taught 11-17 year old scouts at the Jamboree and most all of them,
> regardless of the age, learned something about the subject. And that
> is the real purpose of the program.
>
> */Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>/* wrote:
>
> By mentioning the exceptions, you have proven my point. Most 10-
> and 11-year olds are not ready for Radio MB.
>
> 73 de Fred
>
> At 17:29 +0000 01/10/2005, Alun wrote:
> >Given that I have known children younger than 11 with ham licences,
> >and a girl called Dana who got her Extra at that age, I can't agree
> >with what you are saying, at least not the way that you have
> phrased it.
> >
> >If you don't cover the basic science and electricity theory, etc. in
> >the course, then obviously if they haven't done it at school then
> they
> > won't know what you are talking about.
> >
> >My son, who is 12, did his chemistry MB at age 11. We signed him up
> >for it without realising that it was aimed at older scouts, but
> then I
> >took him anyway and he passed. Everything was taught assuming no
> prior
> >knowledge, rotating the scouts through a series of separate
> classes in
> >specialist areas, each one taught by a recent chemistry graduate in
> >one of the labs at a local university. Plus my son has a 130 IQ and a
> >genuine interest in science. This is a recipe for success.
> >
> >It depends on what the objective is. If you want to get a bunch of
> >scouts who really have no interest in the hobby to take the radio MB,
> >then it probably does help if they have covered some of the stuff at
> >school. OTOH, the chemistry MB programme did prove to me that you can
> >incorporate enough background into a technical programme so that
> >anyone can understand it, or at least anyone of scout age or higher.
> >
> >Although I'm registered as a radio MB counsellor, I have yet to teach
> >a class. However, I have taught ham radio licence classes to adults
> >who forgot all their physics a long time ago.
> >
> >73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK
> >
> >--- In ScoutRadio@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD
> <k2frd@m...> wrote:
> >> No, no addition to the MB requirements which is, as stated against
> >BSA policy, but I do add prerequisites to screen the Scouts before
> >taking certain merit badges which is not against policy. I can't
> say I
> >know of any MB counselor who doesn't screen merit badge candidates to
> >determine if they are ready to take the MB, especially in a Scout
> Camp
> >setting, although this should be a Scoutmaster responsibility. More
> >specifically, the merit badge program is already set up such that
> >younger Scouts are supposed to go through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second,
> >and First Class rank requirements before taking merit badges, meaning
> >there are already prerequisites in place, supposedly to screen out
> >Scouts before they are ready. It would be most unusual (but not
> >unheard of) for a 11-year old first-year camper to already be First
> >Class and ready to tackle merit badges (I don't believe there is any
> >longer tenure requirements for Second and First Class); such an
> >exceptional Scout would then, presumably be ready for advanced merit
> >badges although once he completes First Class, he might be better
> >advised to first take the required merit badges for Star, Life,
> and Eagle.
> >>
> >> Where the system breaks down is at the Scoutmaster level,
> >particularly at Scout Camps where a SM far too often sends a
> >first-year camper to merit badge sessions instead of the Scout
> working
> >on Tenderfoot through First Class rank requirements. Often, the SM
> >hasn't read the MB requirements and does not realize that a
> particular
> >merit badge, Radio in this instance is beyond the capability of most
> >11-year olds. Every week this past summer at camp, 10.5 and 11-year
> >old non-swimmer Scouts were sent to Canoeing, Rowing, Small-Boat
> >Sailing and Lifesaving Merit Badge sessions at the waterfront. I do
> >not believe that the, say Small-Boat Sailing MB counselor is going to
> >spend a large amount of time teaching the Scout how to swim before
> >even starting on the SB Sailing Merit Badge requirements. So it
> may be
> >even more unrealistic with Radio MB in which a 10.5- or 11-year old
> >Scout often/usually is not even aware of the nature of household
> >110volt 60-cycle alternating current electricity (which is where I
> >start when beginning to describing frequency); those younger
> Scouts to
> >whom I have attempted to describe frequency just have their eyes
> glaze
> >over.
> >>
> >> 73 de Fred K2FRD
> >>
> >> At 21:31 -0700 28/09/2005, Al Katzman wrote:
> >> >Hmmm, that seems to me that you are adding requirements that
> aren't
> >in the book and against BSA policy. Better watch out on that. Might
> >get into a bit of trouble even though one does see your point. It's
> >better to try to teach that concept and maybe give the scout a
> partial
> >than to go against the fact that the Scoutmaster has signed off
> on the
> >badge originally which states that the scout is qualified to take
> that
> >badge.
>
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kimbare

I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all

Message 3 of 21
, Oct 3, 2005

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Re: Merit Badge Prerequisites WAS: Re: [ScoutRadio] JOTA around the cornerI have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all special ed.....
I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the requirements and have never had anyone, by the time I was done not under stand or “pass”...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....

I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried

The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done

For every merit badge counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....

ky2mmm

Fred Stevens K2FRD

I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I ve been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10)

Message 4 of 21
, Oct 3, 2005

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I think we have all had different experiences while teaching Radio Merit Badge. I've been teaching it since before 1998, always in a group setting (4 to 10) rather than just a couple Scouts. There's certainly more flexibility with only a couple since if more in-depth instruction/explanation is needed, the time can be taken to teach it while with a larger group, an instructor would lose a number of the older more advanced Scouts in a class if s/he had to take one or two sessions to explain the basic nature of electricity (i.e., where the electrons come from, where they go, how they get there, all this before 110vac, 60 HZ leads into frequency) to a Scout who either through lack of conceptual ability or educational background needs to start from scratch (e.g., has no idea how household electricity works). Especially in a Scout camp setting where the instructor is given five 1.5-hr sessions and no more, this detailed approach will not work since there isn't enough time.

The original question on this thread centered around learning problems of younger Scouts who could not grasp the abstract concept of electricity. Those who could not had to be spoon-fed the information without truly understanding how electricity works and, by inference and in succession, how frequency and radiowave propagation works. At some point, a Radio MB counsellor must decide (1) if the Scout actually understands the requirements and can actually do them or (2) if the Scout must merely feed back to the instructor what the instructor has said to secure the merit badge without understanding and thus be awarded the merit badge without really learning anything or (3) if the Scout should wait a year or two before undertaking the merit badge and securing some understanding from it. Personally, I prefer not to sign off on Radio MB (or any other MB I instruct) until I am assured that a Scout understands what the merit badge is about and has actually completed the requirements rather than just regurgitated verbatim back to me what I said.

Again, the merit badge program was designed for Scouts who have already completed First Class rank, vis a vis 12-yr olds and older. It is not designed for new Scouts who have not yet completed Second nor First Class. There are always exceptions and exceptional entry-level Scouts who would be able to successfully and meaningfully complete Radio MB at any time; some probably could have done it as Tiger Cubs. These are future Eagle Scouts.

73 and YIS de Fred K2FRD, VO2FS

At 16:54 -0400 03/10/2005, kimbare wrote:

>I have been sitting and reading all of these...I have 5 kids...all are hams except the 2 younger ones...They others were hams well before 10...they are all special ed.....
>I do the radio merit badge all the time..I cover all the requirements and have never had anyone, by the time I was done not under stand or "pass"...I also do the girl scouts....which I AM allowed to add to the requirements since that 1 is just a patch program....
>
>I have after all is said and done some scouts look for me and sit in on occasions even after they have passed...and some have gotten their liscense...
>Merit badges are @ wetting their appitite in areas they would maybe never have tried
>
>The requirements are not hard but then again I am a teacher and a mom and deal with special ed ...I do a lot of fill in info and start out with its use, mon bouce and sky bounce with loads of super balls to help demo ,etc...well any way the point is I believe it is in thepresentation...and yes some is supposed to be done ahead of time, but It is just as easy to present it and question them to make sure that they under stand it as it is to just make sure the requirements are done
>
>For every merit badge counsellor out there, there will always be an opinion but this is just the way I do it....
>
>ky2mmm