Why nobody in two years has mentioned this haplotype?With DYS390=26 and DYS388=13, he has the most great variability among R1b1b2/L23- (see the “ht35 project”) and demonstrates that this haplogroup (the ancestor of all R1b1b2) has probably his origin in Italy.

Perhaps scholars (or pseudo-scholars) has buried too soon the presence of R1b1b2 in Western Europe. Which has the most variance between the Italian 12,26,14,11,11,15,11,13,12,13,13,30 and the Ibizan 10,24,14,11,11,14,-,12,12,13,13,29 ? The presence of DYS393 not only with the value of 12, but also 11 and also 10 or even 9 makes we think not only to a multistep mutations, but also to a very ancient presence of this haplotype in those places. We think it isn’t fortuitous that these haplotypes are to-day present in islands. We can think that the presence of R1b1b2 in Western Europe is very ancient and only those who received farming from East (Italy or nearby) by cultural diffusion, they expanded to the rest of Europe.

“Hg R1 is common throughout western Eurasia and accounts for more than 30% of the Balkan Y-chromosome pool. With the exception of one R1a*-SRY10831.2 and five R1b1-M343* individuals, all the remaining R1 lineages belong to R1a1-M17* and R1b1b2-M269. These two subclades,which show in Europe opposite-frequency gradients with maximum incidences in eastern and western region respectively, still display high values in northern Balkans and sensibly decrease southward. R-M269 chromosomes are common in the Balkans and Anatolia and, according tothe observed internal divergence of their 49a,f branches, most likely predated the origin of agriculture. However, the current lack of informative Hg sub-division within these populations does not allow, at this time, to evaluate the role of R-M269 chromosomes during the transition to agriculture.” (Battaglia et alii, Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in Southeast Europe, EJHG, 2009, 17, 822-823)..

Many thanks, Tilroe, but not only I have seen these postings, but, having written privately to Costa, he has been so kind to send me these postings. The Italian surname "Armani" and similar is diffused overall in Italy. Also if it presupposes the german "Harimannus", like other surnames doesn't mean any link with the ancient ethnic origin of the name. Otherwise all Mattei, Giovacchini, Giannini and other millions would be Jews, and you can understand that this isn't possible. In Italian there is also the surname "Armeni", perhaps more linked with a possible Armenian origin.

There is also the surname. Costa is a little bit mysterious. I think he has never put so far these data elsewhere. Probably I have been the first to know them, and I know only that his uncle matches closely a Sicilian whose he cannot say the name, I don't know why of course.I did this little research on YHRD about this haplotype and sent it to Costa:

My response: Welcome to DNA genealogy, Nick. There is nothing unusual in this haplotype, it is exactly (in term of mutations) where it should be. Its base haplotype (aka deduced ancestral haplotype) in the 37 marker format is as follows: 12 25 14 11 11-14 11 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 35-38 12 12 The two have 19 mutations between them, which separates the current haplotype from its common ancestor by 19/0.09 = 211--> 266 conditional generations (25 years in each), or approximately by 6650 years. Since the R1b1a2* common ancestor lived around 7000 years ago, it is quite normal. In other words, 19-20 mutations from the base haplotype is what should be for the present-day R1b1a2* haplotypes. Regards, Anatole Klyosov

This has just written Anatole Klyosov on Rootsweb and that I have found on YHRD a close haplotype at Sverdlovsk will confirm him in his odd theories!

You folks sound pretty sophisticated, so don't scalp me for ignorance, please! My PhD is in metallurgical engineering; I'm currently working on my GED in DNA. :c)

FTDNA shows me as R1b1a2a1a1be3c* and my 23andMe results, just in, show me as R1b1b2a1a2d3*. My DYS385a value is 10. Any thoughts on the disparity or the DYS value that appears to match up with some of what you are saying about the derivation of the R1b folks?

You folks sound pretty sophisticated, so don't scalp me for ignorance, please! My PhD is in metallurgical engineering; I'm currently working on my GED in DNA. :c)

FTDNA shows me as R1b1a2a1a1be3c* and my 23andMe results, just in, show me as R1b1b2a1a2d3*. My DYS385a value is 10. Any thoughts on the disparity or the DYS value that appears to match up with some of what you are saying about the derivation of the R1b folks?

Did you mean R1b1a2a1a1b3c* shown from FTDNA? If you so you are L2+. The R1b1b2a1a2d3* designation is ISOGG and it is the same as R1b1a2a1a1b3c*

Thanks, Curtis; that's very helpful. I'd noted the ISOGG but had mistakenly determined the FTDNA equivalent to be R1b1b2a1b4c, rather than as you have shown it, which is what FTDNA shows me as being. As to additional testing, I'm currently awaiting the "Big Y" results and am hopeful that will help determine any differences between my Craig line and the Vance Group 8 line that I seem to fit into equally well.