No Guest Commentary… Open Mic

I have only one guest commentary piece written and ready to go. To be honest, I am simply not comfortable with it and therefore have decided not to use it at this point. It came to me from someone who does not post on this site regularly and has a fairly hostile tone. I don’t want anyone to think that I am censoring thought on this site. I normally would not choose this course of action. I consulted with several people and all agreed this was not a good post to use. It is simply too divisive and would serve no purpose for us here. If someone would like more of an explanation than that, please drop me a line. I instead have decided that I will have a second open mic night for the week. Normally this will only be one night a week, but I was unprepared. There is lots of news out there, so let’s discuss some of it. It has been jumping into the last couple of days in the discussions. I will start a few topics and let everyone go from there with any topics they might want to discuss…

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Before I get into topics, I just wanted to add a thought. I am not oblivious to the conversation from the other night about taking action versus sitting here and discussing things. I have not responded much to those posts from MadMom, GA Rowe, and others. I don’t want anyone to think I am ignoring your thoughts. I hear you, loud and clear. As long time readers on this site, and beyond that people who’s opinions I respect, I owe you more than ignoring you. I will address this issue on Sunday night’s post. The entire topic will be dedicated to nothing but that discussion. So I hope that you will all come in and participate. I think it is a worthy discussion and debate to have. I don’t think that I am as passive as is suggested, but I am not as active as desired. So we will discuss that in Sunday’s post (Monday morning for most of you). I look forward to the conversation.

I read the other day that the Obama administration is looking to appoint a “Compensation Czar” First and foremost, and this has nothing to do with the discussion, I am tiring of the media and government’s use of the word czar. Do they think that a term associated with communism is good for today’s political climate? I just don’t like the term. And it is overused and dumb.

On topic… it seems lately that there are “czars” being created for everything under this administration. A “Car Czar”, “Financial Czar”, a “choosing the official toilet paper of the first family Czar”. But this latest one has me a bit disturbed. A compensation czar: an official position to oversee the compensation and benefits of companies taking federal bailout money. Do we need to have an assigned position to do such a thing? Couldn’t it just be written into the contracts of those companies where it applies? Appointing this position scares me because it seems (at least to me) to imply that there is going to be a greater need for this going forward, which would imply that the government intends to have its paws in far more private companies in the future. It “feels” like a step towards “Big Brother”. What do you guys think?

I don’t like the whole ‘czar’ thing either. This is one of the errors in rushing thru the bailouts – they didn’t renegotiate contracts, bonuses, etc, so now they’re trying to fix that after the fact. And the “Compensation Czar” does seem like a long term solution to a short term problem.

I’m guessing everyone is “messing with Joe” and he’s not trusted with overseeing the Whitehouse commissary’s nightly deposit. I wouldn’t doubt all his phones have been swapped with Fisher Price, his library reloaded with Dr Seuss and his secret service replaced by Nanny 911 staffers.

It seems to me that if the President has faith in those he appointed to cabinet positions he wouldn’t need these czars he keeps creating. If I was one of those cabinet choices I’d be bit peeved myself. It’s almost – IMHO – like the cabinet choices are there to take the heat while the real “power” is with these czars Obama brings into the White House and keeps out of view from answering to anyone outside the WH. Remember that he can invoke Executive Privilege with their work to keep it out of the hands of Congress and the public if he needs – not quite so easy to do with cabinet members and the agencies they oversee.

The “czar” appointments don’t get vetted, aren’t accountable to anyone but the president. Not subject to oversight or reporting so that Congress even knows what they are doing, let alone has any control over it. Like with Geithner, Congress keeps asking where the money is going and not getting answers. Much of what this administration has done has removed control and accountability from our elected officials. Where does that leave the American people in terms of a representative government? Nowhere. We can’t vote the czars out therefore we the people have no power. Perhaps “czar” is quite appropriate.

At last count, Obama has 18 “czars”. More than any Pres in history. This includes a car “czar” who knows didly about the car business. Or any other business either. I guess you don’t have to know anything when you’re going to take your marching orders from Obama anyway.

Who pays these Czars? They are appointed by the President so I assume the federal government?ie…you and I the taxpayers.

There’s a drug czar, a U.S. border czar, an urban czar, a regulatory czar, a stimulus accountability czar, an Iran czar, a Middle East czar, and a czar for both Afghanistan and Pakistan, which in Washington-speak has been lumped together into a policy area called Af-Pak.

There are upward of 20 such top officials, all with lengthy official titles but known in the media as czars, and next week there will be one more, when Obama appoints a czar for cyber-security who will be charged with improving the security of computer networks.

So if the government pays these officials salary then isn’t he in effect creating high powered officials with the ability to sidestep democratic principles with regards to important decisions on issues that affect ALL Americans? ? ?What the hell is goin on? This should not even be legal.

From Fox News: The New York Police Department is looking into adapting futuristic technology that would allow officers’ guns to recognize one another in an effort to avoid the type of friendly fire that left a cop dead last week.

This seems to be a bad idea to me. First I don’t like where this could lead for the future of private gun ownership. Second I think that it is a bad idea because it will lead to cops relying on this instead of using their head in a confrontation. They should be VERY careful about using their firearm on anyone. I feel like this idea could lead to less care in doing so. “My gun didn’t tell me it is another cop, so I am good to fire”. Read the article here:

I am with you on this one, USW, absolutely NOTHING can take the place of TRAINING!

For each and every situation – and where time permits – your training should take precedence. There should always be a single senior officer in charge – a Sergeant or above or at least an FTO until a Sergeant arrives. Where time does not permit your training should prevail – BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS!

The above paragraph was drilled into our heads each and every morning (at beginning of shift) by our watch commander.

And train we did. I wore out two guns and one extra barrel in training.

Another thing that scares me about this is the possibility that criminals will obtain and hack this technology and thus prevent or delay the legitimate officer from firing his weapon. One dead cop and one escaped criminal.

As a computer man, let me say that I know nothing about Police matters. But I do know a lot about computers. If this tech relies on a computer, it can be hacked. there is always a criminal somewhere that can hack anything computer related.

June 6, 2009 at 10:06 am e
This was the first thing that jumped out at me – someone is going to mis-used this technology. And I wouldn’t trust my life to tech – I’ve read several stories about people driving off a road because they’re GPS told them to turn right…

Any such device would have electronics involved which would be highly susceptible to many malfunctions.I have paintball guns with electronics to control firing rates and they have been a constant pain.I can’t imagine having a weapon that my life depended on its use of having any more possibilities of malfunctioning than the mechanical ones that already exist.

any special electronics in a gun will enable it to be hacked / hyjacked by a no-gooder. The reason a no frills revolver is still the most dependable defense weapon, very few moving parts to fail, simple mechanism. works each time every time.

I don’t know guns or computer tech. But I do know we bleed technology out of this country like a slaughtered calf. In the hands of our enemies wouldn’t this mean their weapons could easily identify our law enforcements weapons even undercover cops, cia, fbi?

From CNN: The government is delaying legal action against Pennsylvania landowners who haven’t yet agreed to sell their land for a memorial to victims of United Airlines Flight 93 on September 11, 2001, federal officials said Friday. The government has been negotiating with several landowners since 2003 in an effort to purchase their properties near Shanksville where the hijacked jet crashed into a field, killing everyone aboard.If final efforts at negotiations are unsuccessful, officials intend to use eminent domain to acquire the property. That right allows governments to take private property for public use without an owner’s consent, after paying a fair price for the land.

Big problems for me. I do not like eminent domain. Not in any way, shape or form. I intend to write an article on Eminent domain next week, but I thought I would throw this out and see what people think. Read the article here:

Eminent domain is only the beginning USW. I was listening to talk radio yesterday (WJR from Detroit) and the host was talking about congress pushing thru S.787, which redefines what “public waters of the Unites States” means. They are removing the phrase “navigable waters”, which, in essence, means they will have jurisdiction over private ponds, lakes and anyone with a water filled pot hole in their yard.
I am about to declare my property the “Country of Me” and succeed from the US. 🙂

I believe that is called the Law of the Sea and it is but on bill being comtemplated which takes jurisdiction of coastline from locals and puts it into the hands of the federal government for supposed reasons of homeland security and/or environmental purposes. Hogwash. It is nothing but a power grab, as is everything being orchestrated by this administration. Next thing, those of us who live on the coast will either have no ability to add to our property, will be forced to pay such high insurance rates that it will be impossible to remain there, or environmental rules will prohibit us from flushing a toilet. This guy is scary. Really scary.

I think there is a legitimate need for eminent domain powers but it needs to very tightly restricted. Kelo certainly didn’t meet what those restrictions should be. ‘Public Good’ doesn’t mean taking property and turning it over to private parties in the hope of realizing increased tax revenue. Taking property to build a memorial doesn’t rise to the necessary requirement of public good either, imho.

This issue makes me very angry….the 5th Amendment says it must be just compensation and the government sets out to set that compensation. It is wrong. This amendment has been abused so much lately. Just compensation is market value and the betterment of community should be held to necessary items like a road that can not be done another way. I hate bullies….
The state was widening a road in front of our business….it was really needed we had no problem with selling them land ut thy did some really stupid things in their original drawings and the price they set was way below market…..it was up to us to prove market and we had to fight with the engineers to get them to change some of the really dumb things they preposed. The first words from them when we started complaining was “we can take it”. The government is arrogant.

Being involved with infrastructure, I can say that there is a need for eminent domain for projects that do benefit the public. That being said improving the government tax base or building a monument is not one of them. It has been my experience that when someone’s property has been taken they have been well compensated. I have seen some very fine houses built from the money received for taken property. I am sure there are some horror stories out there but I haven’t seen them.

I actually don’t want you to answer this just yet, as a post on eminent domain is upcoming and I will value your input there. But I want you to be prepared to answer this question when it comes up, or at least give your thoughts on it:

WHEN is the benefit of the public such that eminent domain is NECESSARY? Not convenient, not cost-effective, but necessary?

The only time eminent domain is Necessary is in the case of public safety. I used to work for townships in Pennsylvania and know first had the vastly different views of eminent domain. Some of the townships would use it and give it to private development. Some townships would fight for their residents if the someone wanted to take their land.

The only scenario that it served a purpose was for public roads. And I do not mean the times when the department of transportation just wants to put a new road right through the middle of your house, I mean the times when an intersection designed for traffic in 1950 is dangerous, has proven to be deadly, and the property owner refuses to give up land for safety reasons.

The argument of ruining property value and increased traffic are not valid in this case because the residential property value is already lowered by the volume of traffic. And the traffic is already there.

The biggest thing that I dislike that is comparable to eminent domain is annexing and rezoning.

The one town near where I used to live annexed part of a township 20 years ago and rezoned it industrial. The town did this basically to get an industrial zone in their town away from their residents and to tax it. The grudge from the township still exists. They rezoned the area next to the cities residents industrial and try to piss of the town whenever they get the chance.

Where I live now a member of the zoning board did spot rezoning in the neighborhood where he lived. The spot rezoning was to make multi-families into single families thus increasing the value of his house that he is trying to sell and screwing the people that have duplexes that they rent.

problem I have with this is the amount of land they feel they need. It is not just the crash site, it is enough to border the crash site with enough land so the view from the site will not see anything a border neighbor erects.
Does keep down the commercialism, but who gave the gov’t the right to just take as much land as they want (not acres, not 10s of acres, not 100s of acres, but thousands of acres.

I do not understand the “need” for these mega monuments which seem to dwarf the pyramids.

A simple shaft containing simple words regarding things like valor, courage, sacrifice would do. In the future, if people care enough, they will come, if not, they won’t.

The 9/11 memorial in Lower Manhattan will become a tourist mecca. Frankly, I don’t like that. Those Texicans have it right with the Alamo. Leave the building and make it a sacred place. If the US Govt. had control of that site, they would probably want to demolish everything built since the 1840’s and restore it to what it was. If that meant demolishing half of downtown San Antonio, believe me they would do it.

Britain’s Prime Minister Gordon Brown, and his Labor Party, are in serious trouble. They are much in a similar position to the Republican party here in America. There are calls for Brown to step down. A major party member resigned Thursday night, and while doing so, called on Brown to do the same in an effort to give the Labor Party a “fighting chance”. One of the criticisms of Brown is the support he gave to America. But the biggest is his handling of the economic situation. What does everyone think of this developing situation?

Problem with the labour government is that they have been in power far too long and have basically become indistinguishable from the conservatives. We now have 2 major parties that you probably wouldn’t be able to tell apart policy wise. We have the choice of a half blind Scot or a Eton bred toff who makes you wish you could actually punch him in the face through the television screen. Lib Dems are gaining more power and unfortunately so is the BNP which disturbs me above anything else. Unfortunately it looks like we are headed for another torie government, the last time they were in power it made the stuff labour is going through now look like a small quibble.
Also it just wasn’t one party member that resigned, Jackie Smith the home secretary and Hazel Blears also resigned this week.

All this crap is mostly down to the expenses scandal that showed the MPs were claiming money on things they shouldn’t have. Most people are pretty angry at all parties at the moment.

The BNP is gaining strength for a reason. My friend in the UK told me he’s voting for them because they’re the only ones who will stand up the Islamists. Nick is not a hate filled right winger. In fact, very few anti islam types are. I don’t know where leftist and multiculti types get that idea. Some of them must think that the evil white haters are just picking on the nice Brown people. What, is that we just have nothing better to do than by mean to Brown Skins or something? What will it take for most people to recognize Islam as the threat it is?

Ugh have you read anything the BNP has put out, saying the BNP is a good idea is like saying the KKK is a good idea. I find them and their policies completely repulsive, there is a reason you cannot be a member of the BNP and serve in the police force. Please do some research into their history and not go off what your friend says, I dont want to have to dig out the picture of the BNP leaders decked out in Nazi uniforms doing the Sieg Heil to a Swastika. I take comfort in knowing they got less votes than last election but it was the crumbling labour that allowed them seats.

I’m not concerned with how ‘evil’ the BNP allegedly is. My point, again, is regular folks are turning to this party. WHY??? Are they suddely ‘haters’ or ‘racists’? I know my friend is not. I’ll tell you his take on the whole mess is. Its that he believes his very life and security are threatened by Islam. No other parties seem to be serious about protecting non muslims in the UK. My friend is afraid of his government! I’ve known him for 14 years. This fear of Islam, and fear of his government has recently manifested itself. There is a reason. The new BNP supporters feel the party is their best hope. You might want to consider this and actually come up with a better alternative instead spouting leftist propaganda.

Don’t worry the BNP don’t just hate muslims (one of the leaders said he wish he could machine gun mosques when speaking at a BNP meeting) they hate everyone who is not white and not from the UK.

The BNP prey on the ignorant and non informed, they mainly target the poor that are on welfare by promising them they will get high paying jobs, they even promised to bring back ship building to the North East which is an idea so retarded it makes my head hurt.

From its constitution “committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948” In other words they want to ship out anyone who is not white even if their families have lived here for decades.

It also restricts its membership to “Indigenous Caucasian”.

The BNP used to be extremely anti Semitic and supported what Hitler did to the Jews, they found out a few years ago by going down the anti Islam route instead, they got more votes.

So yes your friend is either a racist or ignorant of what his party stands for. The BNP have a history of violent attacks against those that oppose them and against minorities.

So sorry for my “leftist propaganda” that is directly taken from the BNP and court cases brought upon its membership. Cyndi do you support the KKK and would you support a KKK political party? I would also advise your friend not to actually become a BNP member, the BNP are not so good with keeping their member lists secure and those found to be BNP members have a nasty habit of losing their jobs.

Thank you for making my point. If what you say about the BNP,is true, then new party members/voters are more desperate than I thought. My friend is not racist, or ignorant, Just fed up and pissed off. And yes, I would support the KKK if they were the only group that would at least offer to protect me. If Leftists gave a rats ass about non muslims and the people who’s forefathers made the nation, and didn’t screw them over just to help out the new comers, then maybe the BNP wouldn’t be so damn appealing to more and more people.

I would agree about this being a waste of time, I would also agree that your intellect is wasted and would be better spent actually doing some research into the subjects you vainly try to post about. As long as you would give support to racist, violent people I think I know where you stand. Again repost your comments and replace Muslims with Jews and we are back to Germany, 1930.

Maybe the Brit’s will reclaim some of their rights. Has the violent crime level dropped since their gun registration and confiscation? Their emergency rooms cannot handle the patient load. The government required the ER’s to see a patient within
a period of time (6 hrs I think). The ER’s responded by forcing the patients to remain in the ambulance until their patient load dropped enough to bring them in. Love that “free” health care.

I know a fair few doctors here in the UK and been to the ER a few times and what you are saying is a complete fabrication. Oh and our gun crime has certainly come down and we have no where near the homicide rates of the US.

Actually having read into it the gun crime did in fact rise by 1000 when the handgun ban went into effect in 1997, this has been to an increase in smuggling and conversion of replica firearms. I would also like to add that it is perfectly legal to own shotguns and rifles but you need to have a licence to obtain them.

Did your government REQUIRE REGISTRATION, promising it would not be followed by confiscation? After seizing firearms from law abiding citizens (funny,the criminals kept their guns)did the gun crime rate not climb? And the violent crime rate?

But yes, US violent crime rates have always been higher, until London surpassed New York after the gun seizures.

As you said, the UK follows the US, its a shame they chose our anti-gun cities with the highest violence rate to us for inspiration. A few Texas cities might have been better examples.

Well the gun crime rate has been steadily dropping, we have had a rise in accidents using firearms as gangs have been trying to make replicas into firearms which have had a nasty tendency to blow up in their hands. The FAC’s needed to obtain firearms need to be renewed every 5 years, after the Dunblane massacre the 57,000 who owned handguns were not allowed to keep them.

I really dont know, I know 2 people who own firearms, one was my friends Dad as a child and the other is a workmate. I have no knowledge of the specific registration process for guns and what happened before then.
I would also prefer not to be labelled with any sort of political label.

Any sort of incident with both a firearm or air rifle/pistol. Being seen with one would be classed as an incident and would be recorded against the stats. Just to put things into perspective, in the UK any gun shots just heard near towns make national news.

Sorry Bob, could not find article I remember.
The UK government had started a new policy that required hospitals to see patients within a set time, end result, some of them refused to allow them to be removed from ambulances.

Again I have been to the ER a few times and never been kept in an ambulance, turned away or waited for more than a couple of hours.
I am glad if I came to any busy hospital in America a team of doctors would rush me into my own room and that you don’t have any waiting time whatsoever.

Do not use one hospital as an example and then tar the entire NHS as useless. If you gave Britain the chance to either have the NHS or an insurance based system the US has there would be no competition.

In the states, we hear horror stories about nationalized healthcare…such as wait times to get much needed tests and operations.

Thursday, a week ago, I had an appt. with a Surgeon regarding my Gall Bladder…He walked in, we discussed my tests, he told me that I needed to have my gall bladder out, how about scheduling it for next Wednesday. I said, “Sure”. There was no “emergency” associated with it, other than it had been causing me some severe pain.

The appt & tests leading up to this were:

On 5/6, I saw my Family Doctor about the pain I had been having.

On 5/13, I was scheduled at the Hospital to have an abdominal ultrasound to confirm the issue.

On 5/15, I received a phone call from my Family Doctor indicating that I did have gall bladder stones and if I were to experience any additional pain to go immediately to the Emergency Room, not to wait for any appointments.

On 5/28, I saw the Surgeon for the first time – please note, I wasn’t experiencing “pain” at this time.

On 6/3, I was scheduled at the Hospital to have the gall bladder removed.

On 6/4, I received call from Hospital asking questions to verify that I was medically okay.

All-in-all, I have to say that in my experience the medical care that I received was VERY proactive and positive EVEN though I wasn’t experiencing any pain at the time.

Overall, this experience has pretty much been indicative of my other past experiences with medical care in the United States.

50-60% of bankruptcies in the US are caused by medical bills.
The US government spends more money per person than us on medical care.
You have a lower life expectancy than the UK (and we are pretty bad).
You have a higher infant mortality rate.
You have an estimated 40-50 million people who are not insured.

The NHS is not perfect by any means but I have recieved nothing but faultless care my entire life as has my family, my grandfather recently had his knee replaced and had 6 months at home physiotherapy all at zero cost to him.
I sometimes resent paying my taxes because I do not agree where they go to but I will never resent paying money into the NHS.

Poor reasoning there Bob.Think about what you just said for a moment and realize there are people with enough physical strength and prowess with melee weapons that you definitely would have no chance at all to survive an attack from them with an edged weapon.

Saying that you would much rather face a knife wielding assailant does not better your odds at escaping or triumphing in a physical altercation.They have a weapon you do not the odds are still in their favor whether it is a knife or gun.

The only factor that would be a constant in your situation is that the criminal will have a weapon and you will not have a weapon to defend yourself with because your government doesn’t allow it.Here in Texas our crime has dropped tremendously since our concealed carry laws.

Very true, but I have seen some welp’s that probably carry knives and I would love to see them have a go at me. Give those little welp’s easy access to handguns and my chances are greatly reduced.

You may have an argument that all the citizens should be armed you may be right but still the homicide rates in the US are pretty bad for a developed country, your rate is around 5.8 homicides per 100,000 the UK is 2.03, it starts to get lower when you start looking at other Western European countries. Would your homicide rate go down in the US if everyone had a gun?

Our second amendment right was put in place because the British tried to take away the colonists ability to defend themselves against a tyrannical government. THAT is what the right to bear arms is ultimately about. While I never liked the idea of people having guns for most of my life, I now see the wisdom of our framers in that regard. They LIVED the tyranny. It is what caused the first shot in the American Revolution- the British army attempting to take away the munitions cache from the citizens on Lexington Green. If you study American History it becomes very clear. It is why the US armed forces take an an oath to uphold the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic and are required to stand down if given an unlawful order to disarm law abiding American citizens. We have that right written in stone. You don’t.

My brother has friends in Switzerland and Israel who as part of their respective militia possess the latest technology in house to house combat in their kit lockers at home. That the murder rates of these countries per 100K persons is amongst the lowest on this globe goes very much against it being a matter of mere “access to”.

Well fair enough I would probably be a little angry if I owned a handgun and the ban went into effect in 1997. The problem is the UK is no where near gun centric as the US is. When the handgun went into effect it affected 0.1% of the population, hardly any of us own or use firearms, many of us dont feel the need. Again anyone in the UK (apart from anyone who has spent 3 years in prison or has mental health problems) can obtain a licence to own rifles and shotguns.

We also have the most people incarcerated of any nation in the western world. The question, which I don’t think anyone ever asks is why? I would posit that it is because we do not have a homogeneous population.

Unlike Europe, we are a country full of recent immigrants who in many cases have no stake in the political or cultural system.

Based on recent trends in the UK I would warn that I believe you are headed in the same direction as us. If you want to see crime fall over time, then slow immigration, at least illegal immigration, to a trickle and give those here an opportunity to be assimilated into the culture.

Was Iraq a mistake? Most rulers in the middle east are happy he’s gone. How many wars did Sadam start? How many UN sanctions did they violate?

As for the rest of the middle east, those that respect women’s rights seem to be more reasonable to deal with, and less inclined to promote religious war.
Compare that to Iran, the worlds largest sponsor of terrorism. And they are intent on acquiring nuclear weapons, which if they don’t use directly, would likely be given to Hamas( name meaning “Islamic Resistance Movement). Their leadership has shown a willingness in the past to “negociate” with no intention
of compromise. They have called for the eradication of Israel, and the US the great Satan. Those words are worth believing. The question is how we will answer.
Reply

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Bob said
June 5, 2009 at 2:09 pm

So do you think we should do pre-emptive strikes against Iran and have another ground offensive?

Yes. No.

Iran has called for the destruction of Israel. A quick way for the US to achieve a period of “peace” in the middle east is dis-avow Israel, and allow them to be destroyed. Iran might be the biggest reason Israel and the Palistanies continue fighting.

I would advocate air attacks if Iran refuses to allow inspectors of their nuclear processing, as allowed under the UN Nuclear Non-Proliferation Committee, which Iran is a member of. (reality is so strange, #1 sponsor of terrorism, trying to develop N. weapons gets elected to the international body that supposedly seeks stopping nuclear expansion).

First strikes limited to their nuclear facilities. Any military retaliation to be met with full force targeting their means of making war, including total destruction of their air force, navy and as much of their army as practical.

Another option is to back Israel when they destroy Iran’s nuclear facilities.

Bear in mind Bob, no military action will take place if Iran simply follows international law, written by the committee they are a member of.

That’s right. They did not sign it. Besides. How do you call someone out who already has them?

They have had them long enough for all the world to see that they have no interest in using them Bob. What else should they be called out on? Are they handing them out to anyone else? Could you clarify what they should be called out on?

Well that’s the thing they have never admitted to possessing nuclear weapons (apart from the abundant evidence showing that they have them). This places themselves out of all the international treaties, we universally condemn the countries developing nuclear weapons who have not signed the treaty (and rightfully so) but Israel gets a free pass because they are Israel. Why is that?

Historical record. Israel possesses and shows historical restraint. You’ll no doubt cite the recent Gaza conflict as it was very much in the public eye but I would throw back Iran’s own history of restraint of which there is none. Their historical measure of tolerance which of course there is none. Type of government also throws the proverbial monkey wrench into the works of your argument unless you can show that the social braking mechanism of a democracy and that of a theocracy are one and the same.

You are arguing gun control and trying to portray the shop owner and the gang-banger as being of equal intent.

Again why do Israel get a free pass for not signing the non proliferation treaty?

Restraint with thier nukes maybe but as the US is the only one to aggressively use nukes, that is not a big achievement. Anything else regarding their relations with their neighbours or with Palestine restraint would be the one of the last words I would use.

Oh and please dont try and paint Israel as somehow being better, if anything they are on level peggings with Palastine. I am not saying that Palestine are faultless either but they are both as bad as each other.

So you are saying Israel has shown no restraint? Do you have a clue as to what conventional weapons they can draw from the arsenal? You can honestly say that Hamas would show any restraint under any circumstance other than the annihilation of Israel? If so, are you not calling them liars as opposition to the very existence of the Israeli state has been Hamas’ very public stance from day 1?

could it be that Israel has been under attack from the day of it creation? The arab refugees created that “are homeless” were made that way when all Israels neighbors attacked. May Jews were also killed and made homeless. There is no way a settlement can be made with those that only know how to launch missles, RPGs and human bombs. If Israel did not have her nukes, they would long ago have been overrun.

The US will always look after Israel. Israel could roll into the Palestinian refugee camps and slaughter every man, woman and child and altough they might get a tut tut from the US that would not stop the billions of dollars in both financial and miliary aid being given to them.

Well I am not in charge but if I were the US I would stop money and arms to Israel, I think that would quickly lead Israel to the negotiation table.

I pointed out that yes Israel does show restraint in regards they haven’t committed complete genocide yet, I don’t think they should get a slap on the back for that though. They do use however disproportionate force every chance they get. That is what I was talking about concerning lack of restraint.

Just figured I would let everyone know… Ray Hawkins and his wife welcomed their first child on Friday morning. Ian Nathaniel Hawkins was born at 5:49 am. At 9lb 7oz, it looks as though he is going to be a big boy like his daddy. Expect Ray to be missing from here for the most part for a bit while he adjusts to the world with a child who does not intend to keep to his schedule.

Congratulations Ray. I know you have been looking forward to this day. Now the real fun begins.

Fair warning, that first or second diaper will look and smell like dookey from another planet. Turns to normal poop after just a few. Best gifts/must have-1. diaper genie,
2. headphones(baby screaming in ear for hours is easier with them, and music does sooth savage beast).Recommend Van Morrison
Moon Dance, Better Than Ezera This Time of Year.

Gonga-Rats Ray! Here is a little of what you can look forward to in the coming years as a parent since I have already been there.

Life is wonderful with little children . . .

Birth to 3.5yrs = Don’t ever think you will get a full nights sleep and the 2AM feeding time is not set in concrete!

3.5 to 6yrs = The first age of wonderment as everything is new. Mom & Dad are the greatest in their eyes.

6 to 13yrs = The second age of wonderment, learning is fun, Mom & Dad are the smartest people in the world.

13 to 30yrs = The age of knowing everything, space aliens come down and suck their brains out and do not return them until age 30, Mom & Dad are those ancient folks who don’t know nothing!

30yrs on = The apologetic age, the space aliens return the brains, they discover that Mom & Dad actually did know a thing or two about life at that!

The Grandparent stage = That is when you get even with your kids by taking in your Grandchildren for a few hours at a time, spoil them rotten and then give them back to your children – Life is wonderful again! 😉

I have to say that I started drinking one glass of wine a day when my first one hit 3. It’s done wonders and hopefully will help keep my arteries clear enough that I will live to torture them for as many years as they intend to torture me! Cheers!

I was very saddened today to see that there was not one thing about D-Day today. Ok, I take that back, just one thing. It was a video with this guy who was at Normandy who had landed at Utah Beach and he was talking about his experience there and all the things he had gone through. It’s a shame that they can’t come up with something on the Fox blogs about this, instead of the same old thing all the time. How many WWII vets do we have left, not too many. My dad was a WWII vet from the Air Force and he used to tell us about what he went through. He was in Europe while his younger brother was in the South Pacific fighting as he was also in the Air Force. My dad passed away in 1998 and I miss him very much. His brother passed a few years before him. Now we don’t have them anymore and I miss the stories that they used to tell about what they went through. I miss my dad very much, for we were very close and he was always there for me when I needed him. My dad was very special to me and I will miss him for as long as I live. We have my mother living with us now because she has Dementia and cannot be left alone at all. She talks a lot about my dad and things that happened back then. She can’t remember too much else about the present but has a heck of a memory from years ago. I just hope she doesn’t forget everything. May God Bless all those vets from all wars and their families. I want to thank them for their service and all members of the military past, present and future. I also want to thank you US WEAPON for letting me say this on your space, I really appreciate it very much. You are a very special person to have started this site and for letting people say their peace here. Thank you sir.

I’m not sure if you are talking about here on this blog or on TV, but I watched a very nice, moving special on Fox News Saturday morning on D-Day. You are right, those special men and women from that time are dying out and I thought Fox’s special was well done.

No, I wasn’t talking about this site, I was talking about the Fox blogs. I didn’t see anything on TV yesterday, except for last night, we watched about the landing in Normandy. Seems like anymore, they show less and less about any of it, and it’s really a shame too. We watched that special last night on the history channel.We owe a lot to these men and women from WWII, if it was not for them, we’d be speaking German probably. Well, anyway, I will always have a special place in my heart for these brave people who fought for freedom. Have a nice day, and hope all goes well for you. Hope to chat with you again sometime.

If you want to hear stories about WWII or anything from vets show them you care. The best way to do this is to start showing up to events that veterans will be at, parades, monument dedications, etc… Most of them will be wearing their hats telling you what they did. Ask them questions, in my experience when they are with family members the family has no idea about the stories they tell because they show no interest.

I don’t know who Ray is, but congratulations to you and your wife. It only gets better after all the sleep you will lose for the first few months. We have 2 grown son’s and I wouldn’t trade them for anything, even after all the trouble they caused us. We proud parents of 2 military boys who have served their country for 6 years now. Again Ray, congratulations to you and your wife and family.

The American people need to make their minds up once and for all who we are really at war with in the middle east.Terrorists most of you will say. I agree but; these “Terrorists” are SUPPORTED financially by the Islamic governments of the nations in the OIC AND the majority of the civilian populations of these countries.

Part of the motivation for terrorism is a desire to bring to life a new messianic era involving an Islamic superpower ruled by Islamic law. Muslims who put man’s law above God’s are as despised as America and Israel in these countries. The militants hope and aspire to restore an Islamic caliphate, which is “an integral part of Islam’s glory” in their eyes.

The political issues of al-Qaeda and other Islamic fundamentalists certainly include anti-Americanism, which is evident from bin Laden’s speeches and his fatwa (religious decree) about the “Zionist-Crusader Alliance.” Although, Europeans waged the Crusades that ravaged Muslim countries, militants see the Crusades as a timeless battle between Islam and forces of western imperialism, which the United States currently seems to embody. But the fatwa’s title also suggests that anti-Semitism, or at least anti-Zionism, is part of the motivation. Furthermore, explaining the terrorism of bin Laden’s followers also involves understanding his reasons for a number of acts that have happened in Arab lands and taken the lives of many fellow Muslims.

To the extent that Islamic extremism is anti-American, the reasons include—and go beyond—American freedom in the abstract.The United States is resented for its cultural hegemony, global political influence, and overwhelming conventional military power. Its cultural reach threatens their traditional values, including the organization of societies that privilege males and religious authority. It offers temptation, blurs social, ethical, and behavioral boundaries, and presages moral disorder.

America’s political weight is seen as the hidden key to the durability of repressive regimes that fail to deliver prosperity while crushing dissent. Its support is cited to explain the power of Israel to oppress Muslims and degrade Islam. American military prowess is used to kill Muslims, as in Iraq, or is withheld to facilitate their extermination, as in Bosnia. The American cultural challenge to Islamic societies stands for a broader Western commitment to secularization, the relegation of religion to the private sphere, and a focus on the here and now instead of on either a hereafter for individuals, or a messianic era in which the righteous as a collective will partake.The Islamic belief system abhores this.

So long as Muslims remain enslaved to an ideology and belief system, which only helps totalitarian Islamists gain political control, it is unjudicious, meaningless and patently dangerous to promote democracy in the Muslim world.

Muslims are integrating themselves into western societies at a vastly alarming rate with the sole purpose of undermining western civilization and promoting their belief systems by becoming the majority at the local governmental level and eventually the state.Europe is a prime example.This is not a conspiracy theory this is a statement based upon facts that any of you can research for yourselves and discover.In fact I encourage you to do so.

So now lemee’ break it down to ya’ on another level folks…
these people believe only in the edict of “You are with us or against us!”Non Islamic believers have the choice of Dhimmi slavery, death or becoming muslim.Period.Nothing else.

Here is a “good” video, Tex. It’s about how thankful Muslims are when they live in the States. Notice how she exactly knows her constitutional rights. The funny thing is that muslims take away those rights for non-believers as soon as they constitute the majority like in every islamic state in this world.

I think its important to separate Muslim from extremist. We do not want a world wide religious war with over one billion
Muslims, Modern Christians do not follow the Old Testament, which allows us to have slaves if they are from another country(I want to own a Canadian).

Can there be a revision of Muslim teaching that allows us and them to live in peace? If they can allow a female Prime Minister, it would seem moderation is possible.

I watched a video of a Palistanies wedding, 4-5 people dancing to traditional music in the street. Hamas came and began machine gunning all there. The Koran does not allow music or dance.

Curious as to what the current administration has planned for your children in school?
This is just insanity.

President Obama has appointed Kevin Jennings, founder of GLSEN (Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network) — which sponsored the conference that produced the notorious “Fistgate” scandal (in which young teens were guided on how to perform dangerous homosexual perversions including “fisting”) — to head up “Safe Schools” efforts at the Department of Education. Jennings is a vicious, anti-religious bigot who once said “[F–k] ‘em” to the “Religious Right.” He supports promoting homosexuality and gender confusion as normative to even young students. He made that comment in a New York City church.

You can’t make this stuff up. Obama has appointed this radical to head up our “safe schools”? But who is going to keep kids safe from him? I have said this before: I don’t care what you do in the bedroom – whatever rocks your boat, as long as it’s two consenting adults, but don’t bring it into the classroom. This is another terrible Obama choice. Do not traumatize children. Why can’t the schools just teach reading, writing, arithmetic and civics? There is radical in every Obama appointee.

I only have 1 boy still in Primary School. However I have several nieces and nephews still in Elementary school. Knowing their parents, I can tell you now. THEY WILL NEVER BE TAUGHT THAT GARBAGE!!! NO WAY! NO HOW!

The US does not sell weapons to Israel the US gives weapons to Israel. Old link but you may find it interesting, lets just say its not just planes. There are rumours floating around about you giving them some refurbished Abram tanks that served in Iraq but I think its just rumours for now.

Basically says any loan taken out from the US by Israel for arms is usually forgiven by congress after a few payments. From the websites it looks like you have given Israel over $85 billion since 1949 and it will have no doubt gone past that since those reports were written. I don’t think that number takes into account the private loans either.

Follow up comment on your previous post above “Haven’t committed genocide yet”? Bob, that’s incendiary rhetoric. It tells me you think that they will and it also tells me you have a closed mind on the issue.

Gamal Abdul Nassar, Cold War, Soviet client state, Aswan High Dam, the Suez crisis, Look em all up. Israel was and still is the American counter weight to bad things in the Middle East.

I too am pissed about the USS Liberty but my Mossad contacts (just kidding, though I sometimes wonder about those guys)have told me for over twenty years that the US was warned to stay the hell away. We did not. The Israeli’s did not trust us, not one little bit and did not think LBJ was above sharing this intel with Egypt and the Arabs for his own benefit.

I honestly do not know what Israel would do if they did not fear international condemnation or lack of aid. Like I said in the previous article they were using airbursting white phosphorus over one of the highest population densities in the world, it is actions like these that make me think what Israels military moral boundaries are. Hey I used to be someone who used to defend Israel a few years ago, but since reading a lot of information about the background and what is going off now that made me rethink that support.

You mentioned some incidents before and that is exactly why Israel could do whatever they liked but still get unwavering support from the US.

Bob, just think what could actually happen if the Palestinian Authority could learn to work with Israel. Might not the desert bloom for them too?

I find it truly amazing how Israel has gone from being the good guy to being the bad guy over the past 40 years. Perhaps we should revisit the book and movie “Exodus” and try to understand a bit better how all this happened and how it started. Of course if you think it nothing but a propaganda piece, then we can not move forward.

As earlier mentioned, D-Day was safely ignored by the media. Only those of us who realize what a momentous day that was, when those young Americans, Brits and Canadians saved the world went hunting for references to it. As they leave the scene, down from 16 million to 2 1/2 million now, that great occasion will recede further from memory, as if it never happened.

As the number of Holocaust survivors shrinks, their stories too will be relegated to “you can’t be serious”, or “that couldn’t have happened” status.

Just the other day I watched a democratic operative being asked
point blank if Harry Truman was a war criminal for dropping the A-bombs. Without hesitation, she said yes. I remember family gatherings around my house when I was a kid, my dad and his brothers, when Truman’s name was mentioned, went into a reverent mode usually reserved for popes or something. They were all convinced that Truman had personally saved their lives by dropping those bombs. All would have been involved in the 1946 invasion of Japan and none were looking forward to it. I would suspect, that when the last WW 2 vets are all gone, in another 20 years or so, Truman will firmly be in the war criminal category and any monuments which may have been erected to him will be torn down.

I deplore the actions of the Palestinians, they would be better going after peaceful demonstrations. Having said that after all the reading I have done about the history of that region the Palestinians have not been treated in the best way, some of them got kicked out of their homes and were told to suck it basically.
If you are talking about the biblical Exodus than I don’t think it is very fair. If we are honouring ancient claims to land than I could be getting knocks on the door from possibly France/Scandinavia/Italy telling me to get out of my house because their ancestors had it first. It would be like a native American forcing you out of your home, unfortunately the way land has operated through civilisation has been finders keepers. If we are talking about another Exodus show me a link and I will have a read.

Israel has been turned into the bad guy because of the bad stuff they have done to the Palestinians over the years. The recent actions in Gaza highlight this, 13 Israeli soldiers dead, 1300 Palestinians killed, not exactly what you would call proportional force. Lets not forget the white phosphorus they were using as well, which is banned.

I may sound anti Israel but there will be no peace between Israel and Palestine until one of them is annihilated or a compromise is made. Israel is holding all the cards, they have the land, they have the weapons and they have the worlds strongest superpower propping them up. If the US wanted peace between them all they would have to do to Israel is say “No weapons or money from us for 6 months”, Israel would be at the negotiation table in an instant. Like I said Israel hold the power they should be the ones pursuing a peaceful solution, the problem with making land claims from ancient religious texts is that the other sides texts say the same thing about their religion.

See, we have a generational issue here. I am talking about Leon Uris’ best seller of the 1950’s called “Exodus”. It is the fictionalized version of the founding of the modern state of Israel and the ship “Exodus” full of Holocaust survivors trying to get to Palestine after the war and the Brits trying to keep them out. It was followed up in the early ’60’s by the movie, starring Paul Newman and Eva Marie Saint with a terrific supporting cast.

Being neither Jewish nor a fundamentalist Christian, my feelings about Israel go back to the neighborhood in New York I was raised in back in the ’50’s and ’60’s. It was about 40% Jewish and in the summertime, approximately 50% of those folks had a very visible tattoo on their right forearms. Bergen Belsen, Auschwitz, some other nasty place. Never forgot that although the rest of the world slowly is. The rest of the world never cared much for Jews anyway unfortunately.

The Palestinians could have cooperated but their Arab League brothers stirred them up. Why, as soon as the Arab League, armed by the British, wiped out the Jews, then the Palestinians could move back in and take over their property. Sort of like what happened to the white Rhodesians. We are now in a situation where modern Palestinians have about as much claim on Israeli lands as those Scandinavians, Frenchmen or Italians you were talking about. In 20 more years they will have no claim.

Terrible things happened to the Jewish people and the holocaust is a dark stain on humanity and not just on the Germans. Both the British and the Americans knew what was going on but didnt want to risk the bombers going after the rail roads that were transporting them to the concentration camps.
The holocaust should not be an excuse to not question the actions of the Israeli state.

Therein lies the problem, there is a channel of water between France/Scandanavia/Italy and myself the land disputes were settled centuries ago. The Palestinians wake up every morning and see an 8 metre concrete wall seperating them from where they used to live. The anger felt by the old generation is being passed into new generation, the new generation will continue the terrorist actions and their anger will be passed onto the next generation etc. This will continue until complete destruction of one side or a compromise is made. If you want an interesting read google the British Mandate for Palestine.

I wouldn’t blame Carl Spaatz or Bomber Harris for that. Blame those who knew what was coming and did nothing. Check out the history of the SS St Louis and it’s cargo back in the ’30’s. From a purely military standpoint, the bomber generals thought that the fastest way to end the killing was to pulverize Germany and Japan. Since both of those countries had started their respective wars there was not a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth over the destruction and death involved. Took them a while to get it right but when they finally concentrated on transportation hubs and oil refining/manufacturing they brought German and japanese industrial production to a virtual standstill. They never were able to “win” the war exclusively from the air as they claimed they could but they were integral in the joint ops that did.

The Israeli state built a wall. Why? See, the questions are always who, what, when where and why. That’s where the media is so lax today in failing to root out the answers to those basic questions. Stop killing us and the wall comes down. Real simple solution. If they hadn’t been killing, the damn wall never would have went up. We Americans, at least those of us with half a brain, see the unrestricted illegal immigration pouring over our southern border as an excellent reason to build a wall too. Walls are built to keep people in or out. Always for a reason.

If the new generation can’t figure out that it is better to live and prosper through cooperation than die in poverty then, as Sgt. Robert E. Lee Smith told us in basic training, “They are just too damned dumb to live”.

The only compromise the Arabs seem to want involves the Jews packing their bags and walking into the Med. This they would have to do because the “civilized” world, like the 1930’s wouldn’t want them.

There is no solution to this problem that does not involve the destruction of Israel. No amount of compromise on the part of Israel will, A. convince Palestinian leaders that Israel should remain a state and B. make westerners enamored of “revolution” you know, those morons who wear the Che Guevera shirts, back off in their love of the underdog no matter how big a scumbag he may be.

Why are Palestinians killing Israelis that would make them build a wall?

You speak of cooperation like Palestine has some sort of bargaining chip that they can use against Israel. Israel controls the power they generate and the water that they use and they can cut it off anytime they please. Any aid going into Gaze must be checked and authorized by Israel first.
When Hamas fires a glorified (but deadly) firework into Israel they get an air to ground hellfire missle fired from an Apache in response. If they were playing poker Israel has a royal flush and Palestine has a pair of two’s.
Israel holds the power so they should be the ones who need to get negotiations going but they will have to make a compromise.

I doubt the future generations will be thinking “gee whizz! If we cooperate with Israel we might get to continue living in this crap hole and they might allow us to have clean running water all the time!”.
I am sure your average person living in Gaza just wants a better life for their families just as your average jew living on the other side of the wall, leaders are the problem on both sides.
If change isnt sought after then the Palestinians will just get more and more bitter as the years pass and they will go and do something stupid like getting their hands on a nuke or some sort of biological weapon, if that happens then everybody loses.

It is all in the history which is why I mentioned Uris’s “Exodus” to begin with.

If you keep blowing my people up I will, if I have the means, 1. build a wall and 2. come after you with overwhelming force. A .22 caliber, calibre to you British folks, can kill you just as dead as a 105mm howitzer. So, Hamas rockets or Israeli Hellfires, have the same purpose and end result.

back in the beginning, 1947, it was the Israelis who did not have the weapons.

Yes and everybody does want a better and safer life for their families but to accomplish this, they have to stop the nonsense and be willing to reach out. I think that Israel has tried to do that and been rebuffed. I don’t see the other side even trying but that leads us into a whole cultural debate.

The point I was making about the rockets is that the Palestinians are literally using glorified fireworks while the Israelis are using missiles costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. Both are deadly to be sure but it shows what the power balance is.

Yes there have been talks with the Palestinians but again Israel is the one holding all the cards. If you come to the negotiation table with everything stacked in your favour and someone else comes with nothing what are you going to offer?
Israel must reach out to the average Palestinian for this to progress, the “lets build a big wall and hope they go away” idea is just not going to work.

Tell us, in your version of reality, what happens if Israel does exactly as the muslims, UN, world community, whomever, tells them to? Please describe (using actual evidence) what you believe will happen if not for those stubborn, hateful Jews. Can we expect all muslim vs everyone else violence to end? Will we all just get along like Rodney King would like us to do? Please convinvce me, because all I see coming after the destruction of Israel, is more destruction.

I never said this was a Jew V Muslim thing if the shoe was on the other foot I would be just as critical of Palestine.

I would love to provide evidence to support this but I am not aware of another Israeli state having been declared in the middle east in the 20th century where the original occupants of the land have been relocated. Please tell me where this country is and I would love to comment on it. If not how am I supposed to give “actual” evidence?

How are we supposed to know anything unless something is tried out first, do you agree that the current situation with Israel and Palestine is the best current solution?

NEW YORK – On the fourth day of the 1967 Arab Israeli War, the intelligence ship “USS Liberty” was steaming slowly in international waters, 14 miles off the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli armored forces were racing deep into Sinai in hot pursuit of the retreating Egyptian army.

“Liberty,” a World War II freighter, had been converted into an intelligence vessel by the top-secret US National Security Agency, and packed with the latest signals and electronic interception equipment. The ship bristled with antennas and electronic “ears” including TRSSCOMM, a system that delivered real-time intercepts to Washington by bouncing a stream of microwaves off the moon.

“Liberty” had been rushed to Sinai to monitor communications of the belligerents in the Third Arab Israeli War: Israel and her foes, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon flights flew over “Liberty,” which was flying a large American flag. At 1400 hrs, waves of low-flying Israeli Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers repeatedly attacked the American vessel with rockets, napalm, and cannon. The air attacks lasted 20 minutes, concentrating on the ship’s electronic antennas and dishes. The “Liberty” was left afire, listing sharply. Eight of her crew lay dead, a hundred seriously wounded, including the captain, Commander William McGonagle.

At 1424 hrs, three Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking the burning “Liberty” with 20mm and 40mm shells. At 1431hrs an Israeli torpedo hit the “Liberty” midship, precisely where the signals intelligence systems were located. Twenty-five more Americans died.

Israeli gunboats circled the wounded “Liberty,” firing at crewmen trying to fight the fires. At 1515, the crew were ordered to abandon ship. The Israeli warships closed and poured machine gun fire into the crowded life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were being massacred in cold blood, a rescue mission by US Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was mysteriously aborted on orders from the White House.

An hour after the attack, Israeli warships and planes returned. Commander McGonagle gave the order: “prepare to repel borders.” But the Israelis, probably fearful of intervention by the US Sixth Fleet, departed. “Liberty” was left shattered but still defiant, her flag flying.

The Israeli attacks killed 34 US seamen and wounded 171 out of a crew of 297, the worst loss of American naval personnel from hostile action since World War II.

Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told Washington its forces had committed a “tragic error.” Later, Israel claimed it had mistaken “Liberty” for an ancient Egyptian horse transport. US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate and designed to sink “Liberty.” So did three CIA reports; one asserted Israel’s Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the attack.

In contrast to American outrage over North Korea’s assault on the intelligence ship “Pueblo,” Iraq’s mistaken missile strike on the USS “Stark,” last fall’s bombing of the USS “Cole” in Aden, and the recent US-China air incident, the savaging of “Liberty” was quickly hushed up by President Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara.

The White House and Congress immediately accepted Israel’s explanation and let the matter drop. Israel later paid a token reparation of US $6 million. There were reports two Israeli pilots who had refused to attack “Liberty” were jailed for 18 years.

Surviving “Liberty” crew members would not be silenced. They kept demanding an open inquiry and tried to tell their story of deliberate attack to the media. Israel’s government worked behind the scenes to thwart these efforts, going so far as having American pro-Israel groups accuse “Liberty’s” survivors of being “anti-Semites” and “Israel-haters.” Major TV networks cancelled interviews with the crew. A book about the “Liberty” by crewman James Ennes’ was dropped from distribution. The Israel lobby branded him “an Arab propagandist.”

The attack on “Liberty” was fading into obscurity until last week, when intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book about the National Security Agency. In a stunning revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a US Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high overhead the “Liberty,” electronically recorded the attack. The US aircraft crew provides evidence that the Israeli pilots knew full well that they were attacking a US Navy ship flying the American flag.

Why did Israel try to sink a naval vessel of its benefactor and ally? Most likely because “Liberty’s” intercepts flatly contradicted Israel’s claim, made at the war’s beginning on 5 June, that Egypt had attacked Israel, and that Israel’s massive air assault on three Arab nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel began the war by a devastating, Pearl-Harbor style surprise attack that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed their entire air forces.

Israel was also preparing to attack Syria to seize its strategic Golan Heights. Washington warned Israel not to invade Syria, which had remained inactive while Israel fought Egypt. Bamford says Israel’s offensive against Syria was abruptly postponed when “Liberty” appeared off Sinai, then launched once it was knocked out of action. Israel’s claim that Syria had attacked it could have been disproved by “Liberty.”

Most significant, “Liberty’s” intercepts may have shown that Israel seized upon sharply rising Arab-Israeli tensions in May-June 1967 to launch a long-planned war to invade and annex the West Bank, Jerusalem, Golan and Sinai.

Far more shocking was Washington’s response. Writes Bamford: “Despite the overwhelming evidence that Israel attacked the ship and killed American servicemen deliberately, the Johnson Administration and Congress covered up the entire incident.” Why?

Domestic politics. Johnson, a man never noted for high moral values, preferred to cover up the attack rather than anger a key constituency and major financial backer of the Democratic Party. Congress was even less eager to touch this “third rail” issue.

Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his and his men’s heroism – not in the White House, as is usual, but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew member’s graves were inscribed, “died in the Eastern Mediterranean.” as if they had be killed by disease, rather than hostile action.

A member of President Johnson’s staff believed there was a more complex reason for the cover-up: Johnson offered Jewish liberals unconditional backing of Israel, and a cover-up of the “Liberty” attack, in exchange for the liberal toning down their strident criticism of his policies in the then raging Vietnam War.

Israel, which claims it fought a war of self defense in 1967 and had no prior territorial ambitions, will be much displeased by Bamford’s revelations. Those who believe Israel illegally occupies the West Bank and Golan will be emboldened.

Much more important, the US government’s long, disgraceful cover-up of the premeditated attack on “Liberty” has now burst into the open and demands full-scale investigation. After 34 years, the voices of “Liberty’s” dead and wounded seamen must finally be heard.

Kinda makes ya wonder this coming to light again 34 years after the fact when Obama is “reaching out to Islam” at every corner he stops on during his current world tour.To me it seems as if this is a ploy to sway American public opinion of Israel to be perceived in a negative way.

It is bad enough that President Obama uses almost every opportunity he can to set the parameters of a final peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. Now US officials are openly using Israeli anxiety over Iran’s fledging nuclear program as a bargaining chip to force Israel’s hand on giving up control of the West Bank Palestinian territory.

Mr Obama is also demanding a freeze on Jewish settlement expansion in the West Bank, and has dropped the Bush administration’s opposition to Hamas being part of a future Palestinian Authority government.So he is in effect endorsing a Palestinian government of confirmed terrorists.

This incident was 34 years ago.This incident was investigated by both governments.Both governments agreed it was a case of friendly fire(which happens more than most know during war).My opinion is get over it.Whats done is done.Leave the dead horse alone.

Whether Obama endorses or not any government of another nation – it is not his right. Hamas was democratically elected – remember what that means?

It takes no effort for the Israelis to have negative press – they deliver plenty of reasons. Unless Israel comes to terms with Palestinians, Israel will not exist as a country in 50 years. It is doomed unless it finds a way to give self-determination and a country to Palestine.

It means that regardless of whatever anyone thinks, their nation does not need Obama or anyone else’s recognition as a nation. If I was them I would be pissed too. “We need recognition from who?”. How arrogant that the US or any other country in the “civilized” world thinks that we have the right to tell a democratically elected government whether or not they exist.

Just because you don’t say its a Jew vs Muslim, doesn’t mean it isn’t. Look at what the Koran says about Jews (and others). Look at the size of Obama’s Muslim World (excluding the US). Lots more Muslim Land available for use, lots more Muslim money to fund Palis. The simple solution to those who really just want to just get on with life is to resettle in one of those wonderful muslim countries and take the ‘high road’. Of course , they don’t even talk about that. What they talk about is death to the Jews. Okay, since there isn’t another example of nasty Jews forcing innocents off thier land and committing genocide, let’s skip that part and go staight to the kumbaya peace and love that will prevail once the poor oppressed peace loving Palis get the postage stamp size piece of dirt now called Israel (and they will thanks to Obama). Do we have permission to deal with them effectively and stop kissing muslim butt if they don’t sing kumbaya with us, or will you make more excuses for their violent behavior? Just checking.

And as for Rodney King, I’m surprised you don’t know who he is. You should google his famous quote of “Can’t we all just get along?” Be sure to look at his police record too.

It appears you have some issues with Muslims in general, do you know any by any chance, do you have muslim friends have you even spoken to a muslim?

If one of the middle east countries offered some land to Palestine and the Palestinians were happy to move I would count that as a great success, problem is the Palestinians want their homes back. If Israel could solve the Palestine issue I think you will find relations in the region between themselves and their neighbours would vastly improve. I dont know what you mean by Obamas Muslim world, what are you talking about?

I am well aware who Rodney King is I just didnt understand how including him into this debate added any relevancy at all to the middle east crisis. King was no saint but from your last comment it seems you advocate the beating of subdued suspects, please confirm or deny that, are you happy with what happened to King?