Saturday, June 9, 2012

Muslims Bribing Christians to Convert on Facebook!

I know an Arab Christian pastor who was offered two million dollars to convert to Islam. I also know an Egyptian pastor who was offered even more money to convert to Islam and write a book about how he supposedly read the Qur'an and realized that it was superior to the Bible. (Fortunately, both men declined the offers.)

Now a Muslim apologist (Shah Zahoor of the QDCI Dawah Organization) on our Acts 17 Facebook page is offering qualifying Christians monthly financial support to convert and debate for Islam!

Why do Muslims find it acceptable to bribe people to convert? Many readers will be surprised to learn that this practice comes from Muhammad himself. The Qur'an explains the various purposes of Zakat (mandatory alms):

Qur'an 9:60—The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarer; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.

Notice that one of the uses of money is to "reconcile" people's hearts to Islam. Several Muslim translators attempt to obscure the meaning of this phrase, for it obviously refers to giving people money in order to entice them to become Muslims. Indeed, this is precisely how Islam's greatest commentators have interpreted this verse:

Tafsir Jalalayn—The voluntary almsgivings, the alms to be dispensed, are only for the poor, who cannot find anything to suffice them in the least, and the needy, who cannot find anything to suffice them, and those who work with them, that is, [with] these alms, in other words, the one who collects [them], the one who takes the oaths [from those who claim them], the slave to be manumitted by contract, as well as the tax-summoner; and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, so that they might become Muslims, or that Islam might be firmly established, or that their peers might become Muslims, or that they might defend Muslims, all of whom are [classed according to different] categories.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas—Allah then explained who is entitled to these alms, saying: (The alms are only for the poor) for the folk of the Platform (and the needy) among the pilgrims, (and those who collect them) i.e. the collectors of alms, (and those whose hearts are to be reconciled) by giving them gifts such as Abu Sufyan and his companions.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir—There are those who are given alms to embrace Islam. For instance, the Prophet of Allah gave something to Safwan bin Umayyah from the war spoils of Hunayn, even though he attended it while a Mushrik. Safwan said, "He kept giving me until he became the dearest person to me after he had been the most hated person to me.'' Imam Ahmad recorded that Safwan bin Umayyah said, "The Messenger of Allah gave me (from the spoils of) Hunayn while he was the most hateful person to me. He kept giving me until he became the most beloved person to me.'' Muslim and At-Tirmidhi collected this Hadith, as well. Some of Al-Mu'allafatu Qulubuhum are given from alms so that they become better in Islam and their heart firmer in faith. For instance, the Prophet gave some of the chiefs of the Tulaqa' a hundred camels each after the battle of Hunayn, saying, "I give a man (from the alms) while another man is dearer to me than him, for fear that Allah might throw him on his face in the fire of Jahannam." It is recorded in the Two Sahihs that Abu Sa`id said that `Ali sent the Messenger of Allah a gold nugget still in its dirt from Yemen. The Prophet divided it between four men: Al-Aqra` bin Habis, `Uyaynah bin Badr, `Alqamah bin `Ulathah and Zayd Al-Khayr, saying, "To draw their hearts closer." Some people are given because some of his peers might embrace Islam, while others are given to collect alms from surrounding areas, or to defend Muslim outposts. Allah knows best.

Muhammad defended the practice when he was accused of distributing the spoils of war unevenly. In response to his accusers, he said:

Ibn Ishaq, p. 596—"Are you disturbed in mind because of the good things of this life by which I win over a people that they may become Muslims while I entrust you to your Islam?"

We find the same pattern in the Hadith:

Sahih Muslim 2313—When the Messenger of Allah conquered Hunain he distributed the booty, and he bestowed it upon those whose hearts it was intended to win.

Always remember that in Islam, getting people to convert is what matters. Integrity or sincerity have little importance. If preaching and debating work, then Muslims are called to preach and debate. But if violence, bribery, or deception are the only way to convince people to become Muslims, so be it. I guess that, when you don't have any actual evidence on your side, you have to do what you can.

they are starting to realise, finally, that they havn't got a leg to stand on when it comes to representing the truth(Taqiyya) and facts of their own unholly union satanic bible the quran. Or even debating with educated people who havn't been brainwashed from birth who live in the western world.

Mr Wood you and others have opened the floodgates, exposed the wicked and evil ways of mohamerred and lifted the veil of satanic and barbaric rituals in the quran (Taqiyya, Apostacy murders, rape and slavery list goes on and on..) and more impotantly opened the eyes of a lot of muslims and they are leaving islam for the truth (Jesus Christ and the new testament) in droves. lol when they watched in amazment at how well you defended the existance of mahamerred. Robert Spencer vs. David Wood: Did Muhammad Exist? I think someone or something was whisperring in their ears " we can use some people like them on our side" haha

Let's dupe and bribe some well educated people into doing our work for us.

Considering they all fail so dismally, not a single muslim apologist has even come close to winning a debate or rationaly and logicaly representing the quran in a good light and defending the evil tennets riddled throughout it. They are on extremely shaky ground and is crumbling away more and more everytime they open up thier mouths. Seems to me they are doing a great job of exposing themselves. And perhaps this is a all they can think of to defend islam and their shody culture.

disgusting....absolutely disgusting. It's funny though, Christian prince posted a video some years ago where a muslim group offered to buy all his youtube accounts, facebook and websites for a high amount so long as he NEVER created any other pages again. He rejected the offer.

Hello David,Thanks for this article, this is right they convert Christians and other minorities with money. First they try to bribe them if it works that’s fine otherwise they terrorise them and use every tact’s to convert them in too Islam. Now a days if this not work they use 295c (blasphemy law) in Pakistan, and then this is the end of that family.In some cases they not only offer money, they give them their daughters in marriage. Like cricketer “Yousuf youhana”. I heard this type of same tact’s they are using in the west. Especially in United Kingdom, because there they can’t force them to convert there they use their money and daughters to convert the white community (Caucasian’s).Once again thanks David for showing the real face of Islam. David it’s my pray and wish to come with you to Dearborn Arab festival and help you out. Please keep me in your prayer that one day this dream come true. God Bless, Amen.Peace.

how much is that in British pounds? I would have taken the money and screwed them every step of the way, recording conversations stealing notes ect. and Then I would reveal everything I found, betraying them and running away with all of my ill-gotten gains just like a good Muslim.

This is just bull shit, why are u lie-ING. This is total fake and propaganda against Muslims by people like you. Its very strange to see that Muslims are so rich and Christians are so poor according to your post. ohhhhhhhahhhhaa

You got us Bilal! We invented Shah Zahoor and the QDCI Dawah organization! And we invented the fact that many Christians are extremely poor in Pakistan and neighboring countries, due to their roles as second-class citizens. In actuality, Christians there are Kings and Queens!

We also invented Surah 9:60. In the original Qur'an, the Surah ended at verse 59. We made up the rest! And we built time machines to go back in time and write commentaries for Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas, and the two Jalals. We even wrote Ibn Ishaq and Sahih Muslim!

Yep, that's certainly a better explanation for this post than the obvious one, namely, that Muslims, following the example of their prophet, try to bribe people into converting.

On the contrary, In my country we have had many instances of people being promised jobs and marriage when they enter christianity or accept Jesus as their Saviour(I seek refuge from Allah(SWT) against the cursed shaytan)

I am Doris used every single spell worker on the internet, spent untold amounts of money and discovered they are all fakes…i was the fool though; doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. In the end, I decided that I wanted a tarot reading to know what my future held for me; I contacted a woman who lives locally to me and she told me about a man named (priests meruja); he does not advertise on the internet, has another job for income, has no set prices, makes no false promises and refuses to help anyone that cannot be helped and even helpsfor free sometimes, he will give you proof before taking money. He is a wonderful man and he was the only person who actually gave me real results. I really hope he doesn’t mind me advertising his contact on the internet but I’m sure any help/ extra work will benefit him.contact him as nativedoctor101@live.com He travel sometimes.love marriage,finance, job promotion ,lottery Voodoo,poker voodoo,golf Voodoo,Law & Court case Spells,money voodoo,weigh loss voodoo,any sicknesses voodoo,Trouble in marriage,it’s all he does Hope this helps everyone that is in a desperate situation as I once was; I know how it feels to hold onto something and never have a chance to move on because of the false promises and then to feel trapped in wanting somethingmore.

@ Osama lets see how honest Osama is and let see if he is willing to apologize for 1 corintheans 5:5. Let see if he has any honesty or run like normal because he can;t even read the heading of a chapter before trying to make a claim

Zakariyaa said, "On the contrary, In my country we have had many instances of people being promised jobs and marriage when they enter christianity or accept Jesus as their Saviour(I seek refuge from Allah(SWT) against the cursed shaytan)"

Can you pull up some posts for us or give us a citation so we can see for ourselves this is true?

And Doris, this is not the site for you to solitic business for a shaman.

8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory ; 9 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan ! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.' " 11 Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

Since you and some of your friends here can't even read numbers, then I need to ask you did you mean seventy thousand virgins or 700? I know science is against your man-made religion.

Also David, in regards to the "virgins", I certainly look VERY VERY forward to having them in my Heaven, while you can rot in Hell all you want. Your own bible doesn't deny that Heaven is physical. There are plenty of people in your scriptures that ascended to Heaven in their physical forms. This means they took their ganitals with them there. So yes, I do believe sex exist in Heaven. Life on earth is a mini preview of the lifeafter. There is bliss, and there is torture. There is wealth and there are the ones who have none. There are also ranks, and Heaven in Islam has 500 levels. The least level is 5 times the size of earth. Imagine Hawaii, the Carribeans, Florida Keys with many many times more beautiful in nature. Also, every male believer WILL BE A KING OF HIS OWN REALM IN HEAVEN. THIS IS WHERE GOD ALMIGHTY BEING ****** THE KING OF KINGS ******* COMES FROM. So as the King of my own realm in Heaven, it doesn't surprise me to have maids to serve me.

Now, explain to us what is Heaven like according to your own scriptures. You couldn't even do that David. There is much confusion regarding it. You don't even know whether a person there would be a spirit or in a physical form. Your scriptures are confused and confusing regarding Heaven, and you know it.

Here are more proofs for you regarding the winners of Paradise from humans being Kings, and regarding Heaven being Physical:

1- Even in your scriptures, you were taught that GOD Almighty CREATED MAN FROM WHAT? FROM HIS IMAGE, OR BY HIS IMAGE! You have to understand that the spiritual beings can only DREAM about getting into our Physical Forms. This is why Allah Almighty in Islam had all of the Beings of the Universe bow down to Adam. All of them came down under the feet of the Believers.

2- So now, when GOD Almighty is called KING OF KINGS, then why should it come as a surprise to you that the human winners of Paradise will be KINGS in Paradise?

This is on my to-do list of articles. You listen too much to the silly haters of Islam who use the 72 virgins point and mock Islam with it. They are dumb, deaf and blind who understand not. They're also pornified whores who are doomed to Hell anyway.

I hear this a lot from Muslims. That missionaries are bribing people. They actually believe that missionaries who feed and dig wells, and build homes are trying to bribe people to Christ. When they dont ask for anything in return. If the people do come to Christ, its all the better. But it is not a prerequisite to get help. On the other hand the Zakat cannot go to help non Muslims. it is for Muslim poor alone.

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, after quoting the hadeeth of Ibn �Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Mu’aadh (may Allaah be pleased with him): “Tell them that they have to give sadaqah (charity) that is to be taken from their wealth and given to the poor”: “It is not permissible to give any part of zakaah to a kaafir, whether it is zakaat al-fitr or zakaat al-maal… Maalik, al-Layth, Ahmad and Abu Thawr said: ‘They (i.e., kaafirs) should not be given it.’”

i accept that it was totally based on islamic enmity . i do believe that our team was working on anti muslim agenda and it was just to oppose islam , by hooks or crooks.i do believe that my dear friend osama 's site

http://www.answering-christianity.com

is the best work of his tryings to defend his religion . ( but i do believe that the only truth is the faith i am following )i still has no plans to change my religion but i do believe that we should now work for international peace and collaboration .i am leaving the answeering-islam team now . i hope all the other members of the team will understand what i have understood.we cannot create peace by this manner . i think it is enough . i hope dear osama will also understand this point.take care and sorry again , to all those who were misguided and speacially to my friend osama. source http://answering-islam.org/Hoaxes/emailfraud.html

@OsamaAlso David, in regards to the "virgins", I certainly look VERY VERY forward to having them in my Heaven, while you can rot in Hell all you want. Your own bible doesn't deny that Heaven is physical. There are plenty of people in your scriptures that ascended to Heaven in their physical forms. This means they took their ganitals with them there. So yes, I do believe sex exist in Heaven."

Question1 Osama seeing you think all of us are "dumb" whats the point of going there when we can get the same on Earth. it defeats the purpose

Question2 If it is considered sin on this earth why is it not in heaven? Is Allah so bored he feels the need to subject some randomly made up rules to everyone and then abolishes all of it in heaven? IF what displeases God on this earth is allowed in heaven that only makes the sin worst Osama.

(This might sound racist or biased, but I don't care. I state the Truth as is!)

1- On the Day of Resurrection, according to our Islamic Sources, the Believers will resurrect as: Very bright White, having a Heavenly smell or perfume as their odor, and very very beautiful in their appearances. THIS OF IT AS THE ELVES IN THE LORD OF THE RINGS MOVIE. By the way, the ONE-EYED SARUN BEING SATAN was taken also from Islamic sources. As you know, the anti-Christ will be ONE-EYED. He will also command the sky to rain whenever he wishes. The US today can do that. And the US' symbol on its currency is the ONE-EYE.

2- The disbelievers will be resurrected as blind, darkened, smelling very bad, looking very ugly and displeasing to the eye.

3- Both the Believers and disbelievers will be seperated into two groups. They won't be mixed together while Judgement is happening.

4- The Believers will end up in Heaven and the disbelievers will end up in Hell.

My personally, seeing how GORGEOUS SOME PEOPLE (females and also males) CAN LOOK, in general, makes me believe that this is very very quite plausible in the Hereafter. Now regardless of your race, and the color of your eyes, hair and skin here on earth, your looks here don't make you ANY BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. Allah Almighty Said in the Holy Quran that everything He gave man here on earth is a TRIAL FOR HIM/HER. So whether you're rich or poor, male or female, gorgous or not, it doesn't elate your or put you down in anyway. But seeing how things were created here on earth, I don't see how the Islamic claims about the Hereafter are not plausible.

I will write a DETAILED article on this, with tons of quotations to support every single point I mentioned on this thread for this topic, insha'Allah. I already have all of the quotes. I am just researching further to find more.

@osama"This might sound racist or biased, but I don't care. I state the Truth as is!"

Osama its more to the fact that you are biased and racist. due to the fact you assume the whole waste is christian and also you still sticking to your whacky believe that 1corintheans 5:5 tells us to kill sexually immoral.

Also you assume everything is done by zionist that itself already enough said

definitely Osama writing and its obvious. his bias is shown in his use of words and he even uses words that i prefer to avoid because even though i may disagree with people but I will not resort to insulting them using such profane language as a person who worships god. most i will do use their own words to show their hypocrisy.

"I hear this a lot from Muslims. That missionaries are bribing people. They actually believe that missionaries who feed and dig wells, and build homes are trying to bribe people to Christ. When they dont ask for anything in return. If the people do come to Christ, its all the better."===============================You will hear this from all non-christians...It is not as benevolent as you think...Many christian missionaries have been found and caught red-handed bribing and arm-twisting poor non-christians to follow Christianity. Tsunami in India, Sri-Lanka and Indonesia are cases in point where media reported of such cases (Christian NGOs arm-twisting to starving Tsunami victims)....Christian missionaries are no angels...http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=60813

I have not seen any christian missionary do anything for anybody without expecting anything in return...they do expect conversion and conformation....

Now the question is how is this different from bribery? Since missionaries take care of physical needs with the expectation that the receiver would convert seeing his good deeds, how is it different from bribery? You can claim that not all missionaries force or arm-twist poor non-christians, but it does not change the fact that this is bribery. In many third world countries, one pays certain people money now and then (to be in their good books) with the expectation when time is right that they would repay you. Since christian missionary work (note it is not called charity work but missionary work implying certain expectation and goals) uses so called charity as means of conversion. It is no different than bribery. So why blame Muslims and profiteer when you Christians do the same? Conversion business is common to all religions that originated in middle-east. It is merely number games and attempt to enforce conformity (politics based on numbers), only the strategy is different. Islam is one step further in this. They openly declare non-muslims as enemies and are in perpetual state of war with them. In such a state, one is forced to employ all means to weaken the enemy and so bribery is acceptable in a state of war or in a state of temporary peace.

@ rag as a christian i condemn them then for doing such a thing I am sure others of here will agree. judging from how you are speaking i assume that you are a atheist.

"You can claim that not all missionaries force or arm-twist poor non-christians, but it does not change the fact that this is bribery. In many third world countries, one pays certain people money now and then (to be in their good books) with the expectation when time is right that they would repay you"

one problem to this is that if they convert for just the money they are not truly Christians.as a christian i focus more on spiritual then material. let me ask you what conversion? conversion is faith in god when you once didn't believe. Now anyone can pay someone to say they believe in something but if they do not actually believe then they are not actually converts thus no conversion occurred and makes the mission a failure I would consider. Giving out charity to the poor from missionaries is more to of what i consider a act of compassion and to show that we care about them and our teach that our lord Jesus does too and take comfort to know that God watches over them.if they hear our message then i will consider helping a fellow brother/sister if they pretend to hear and use it for their advantage then its i will think of it as just giving it to the needy. so i don;t actually mind, if they do not actually believe.

I would ask where in the bible does it say something like bring people to Christ through $$$?

@Rag If you are gonna said Christians Missionaries are bad then you at least should tell us what are your beliefs, since you are judging all Missionaries for a few couple, and i'm quite sure whatever your beliefs are we can do the same, but here comes the best part, if they are doing that it is not supported by the Bible (i.e giving food so ppl convert), yet it is supported by the Quran. Also you say that if missionaries give food, clothes, etc it is bribing, well i think not, what's wrong in caring about not only the soul but the body of these ppl, who are hungry, i can preach a homeless man so he can be saved and also give him some money so he can eat (as a good Christian i giving it since i love Jesus and that Person), so your statement is wrong, and even more when you try to put it at the same level of these muslims bribing Christians, these muslims are not even trying to help the bodies (food, clothes, etc) of anyone, they just need Christians leaders to covert to Islam, so everythng you wrote is just a big flaw...

So, is celebrities contributing to world hunger charities and causing a big publicity about it a form of bribery? Cause their purpose is to gain fame and publicity from people for the cause or for themselves?

Is Obama's promising to cater for abortion advocates a form of bribery, since it is to gain favors from these group?

Is giving a dog a doggie treat every time it obeys a command a form of bribery?

Bribery is doing good to someone with the intent of bringing benefit to one's own self.

Christians do not get brownie points to gain salvation or earn their way to Heaven, so they have no reason to 'bribe' anyone for any biblical reason.

Missionaries go out with the purpose to serve others for the sake of loving and serving them with the intent of bringing them the good news of eternal salvation in Christ.I do not see how this in any way benefits the missionary people themselves; except unless they are out seeking fame instead.

What this Shah Zahoor did was giving money to a devout Christian to convert to Islam, not for the benefit of the Christian, but for the good of Islam and his organization (i.e. gain a good young debater)...

Rag,Your grouping Christian missionaries with the likes of what Shah Zahoor (and other muslims) have done as bribery is plain illogical and practically unfair.

It is true that you can point to some Christian missionaries and say, "Look! They do the same thing, you hypocrites!" However, David Wood has always made the point that it's not because of what you see Muslims do that we know the dark side of Islam, but it's that it conforms with the teaching found in Islamic sources. He has demonstrated this to be true in his post. On the other hand, it doesn't really make sense to say that what the Christian missionaries are doing is in line with the teaching of the Bible (Mark 10:17-25). In fact, to refuse to help someone just because they won't convert is wrong according to Christian teaching (Matt 25:34-46, 5:43-48).

In Christian theology, all people bear the image of God and they have intrinsic worth. This motivates Christians to pray for all people. Although the ultimate salvation is when someone is 'saved' by accepting Christ, there is another more worldly kind of salvation as well. E.g. the salvation from tsunami devastation.

"(This might sound racist or biased, but I don't care. I state the Truth as is!)"

Well, we already know you're a racist (specifically against Jews you blame for the evils Muslims do) and bigoted against Christians (blaming the ills of the west with Christianity, and ascribing false teachings) so this disclaimer is unnecessary.

"He will also command the sky to rain whenever he wishes. The US today can do that. And the US' symbol on its currency is the ONE-EYE."

Osama, I found your theme song:"paranoia paranoiaeverybody's coming to get mejust say you never met mei'm going underground with the moleshear the voices in my headi swear to god it sounds like they're snoringbut if you're bored then you're boringthe agony and the irony, they're killing mei'm not sick but i'm not welland i'm so hot cause i'm in helli'm not sick but i'm not welland it's a sin to live so well"

But seriously, you appear to mentally disturbed. You seem to be paranoid, have a persecution complex and have violent fantasies. Please get help. I'm not joking. At the least get out the west you call a "whore" and apparently hate so much.

Apparently, according to rag, Christians aren't supposed to even do good in hopes of converting through a good example. It's the same as bribery! In other words, Christians should just be silent about their faith and keep it to themselves (and even not even help other people, since that might cause people to convert!).

I've heard plenty of this from other "intellectual" anti-religious (and usually specifically anti-Judeo-Chrisitan) bigots. I'm hoping rag will see the enormity of the argumentation he is making (argument against religious freedom), and consider his position. To be fair, Rag's position is far milder than others I've heard, so there may yet be hope.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

First of all your appealing to a blog as your source for evidence of these actions. Secondly if these people (missionaries) did this, it has nothing to do with Christs teachings. On the other hand Islam ordains such behavior. I presented the evidence that Muslims zakat cannot be used for any non Muslim poor! You were silent about this fact that i presented. Pretty revealing dont you think?

Chriswtians are told to help all of those that are in need. And if you cant see the difference between doctrine and what people do of their own volition then you are to far gone and lack integrity! Now what is your faith, or do you have any? Seeing that you were silent about the zakat being only used for Muslim, i would be willing to bet your a Muslim.

Also you say that if missionaries give food, clothes, etc it is bribing, well i think not, what's wrong in caring about not only the soul but the body of these ppl, who are hungry, i can preach a homeless man so he can be saved and also give him some money so he can eat (as a good Christian i giving it since i love Jesus and that Person), “The road to hell is paved with good intention”There is nothing wrong in helping the poor and needy, but the intention is what is in question here..You claim here saving souls is good as per your belief, and muslims similarly believe by hook or crook or torture or threats or bribery a soul must be saved. Christians believe by acing good and feeding poor they can save the soul…Muslims have a saying:Abu Hurairag said “You are the best people for the people, you tie them in chains and shackles and drag them off to paradise”As I said before, only strategy is different…it is still bribery….It appears good to you because of your belief, to a muslim his belief appears to be good and therefore bribery is fine as long as soul is saved. The goal of both these religions is to “save the soul”, although using different methods…one is playing good cop and another is playing bad cop (a really evil one in this case). Am I putting them on same pedestal. Yes and no…yes because goal is same, no because strategy is different. they just need Christians leaders to convert to Islam, so everything you wrote is just a big flaw. This is just strategy…..christians work from grass-roots (poor people, majority), while muslims take top-down approach (grabbing leaders)……both finally want conformity and conversion and seek ways to have conformity at a global scale…Bribery is doing good to someone with the intent of bringing benefit to one's own self. If this is the definition of bribery, then you have shot yourself in your leg. It all depends on what you believe….Really delusional people (muslims) and narcissists (like Muhammad) do actually believe in their own lies and superiority. They (jihadists) sincerely believe that threatening people and murdering unbelievers is G-d’s command. They sincerely believe by these acts they can convert people and save their souls by dragging them in chains and shackles or even monetary rewards to paradise. Read my above quote. So as per your definition it is not selfish act and hence not bribery…mo bribed or rewarded potential converts and gained nothing…There are Christian missionaries comparable to Shah Zahroor…my link shows some of them…Apparently, according to rag, Christians aren't supposed to even do good in hopes of converting through a good example. It's the same as bribery! Exactly…if by good example you mean monetary benefit in exchange for conversion or hope for conversion, then it is bribery…You achieved your goal by monetary means….it is BRIBERY..

In other words, Christians should just be silent about their faith and keep it to themselvesNobody suggested this even remotely….one can show good example by ways other than providing monetary benefits for potential converts...I will believe that Christians want to do service when they separate preaching activity and social service completely…Let them issue a notice that those who are interested attend preaching in some location and time. The fact that missionaries always go in search of poor non-christians with food in one hand (bribery) and bible in another hand, shows what their aim is….they are simply looking for a loop hole or weakness in non-christians to do their preaching….I have seen in umpteen homeless destitute people in NY, Chicago and other cities….every street has a humungous big empty church but next to it lies a poor Christian soaked in his own urine in the cold night about to die and nobody to help…nobody to help him since he is already a christian and no use in spending money on him…too bad…the dude wan not in some heathen country where he could be put to better use for political gains….The fact that both islam and Christianity, both target non-believers is the evidence that this is all about number games (political influence) and NOT about any really want to help others…Search 4 Truth you are wrong about me….you can bet all you want and I do not care…you say Christians are asked to help all those in need as also it ordains you to preach….but it does not change the fact that this is bribery…monetary benefit (in any form) used as access point to influence belief and behavior of a non-believer….I am of the following opinion. All religions that teach to convert non-believers cannot escape from bribery of some kind (monetary benefits, promises of miracles and powers to do the same, heaven, immortality etc. all these are bribes period...). Gains said to be obtained through acceptance of a belief or conversion is BRIBERY (worldly or other worldly)So it is hypocrisy to call Islamic dogma as only sanctioning bribery is false. All religions that believe in conversion and offering anything in return is bribery…that is why I do not believe in any of the three religions…..I am a Hindu to all those who asked what my faith is..

"Well, we already know you're a racist (specifically against Jews you blame for the evils Muslims do) and bigoted against Christians (blaming the ills of the west with Christianity, and ascribing false teachings) so this disclaimer is unnecessary."

RESPONSE:

No offense intended here, but either you missed my many explanations about this, or you're a liar for fabricating lies on me.

1- I don't hate Christians. But the SAME Christians who used to be sexually open, sexually sinning, and alcoholic are the same people who change 180 degrees when they embrace Islam. Christianity breeds filth in the society because it is a weak and corrupt and vague and doubtful religion, according to its own followers. So even if the book says do X, or don't do Y, you wouldn't do it or care about it because deep inside your gut you know it's a man-made corrupt book.

2- As to Jews, I made it clear that I am against the zionists, not the ordinary Jews. Although, it's hard to differentiate the two in many times. I mean imagine an assasine who is a medical doctor. That is something quite amazing.

Rag said..."Bribery is doing good to someone with the intent of bringing benefit to one's own self. If this is the definition of bribery, then you have shot yourself in your leg. It all depends on what you believe…."

I saw NOTHING in what you wrote that showed I 'shot myself in the foot'.

Muhammad gained PLENTY of benefits by bribing people to follow him. example? More men to send out to war, more booty from the wars and fighting his enemies, silencing those who oppose his prophethood, more women to satisfy his sexual desires...

You can't tell apart a person doing good for good from a person doing good for selfish reasons and you want preach to us about what's bribery?

You assume a Muslim ike Shah Zahoor's reason for bribing converts is to bring them to salvation? Read his comment as posted in this blog post!He wanted the Christian for his debating skills and for the repute cause of his devout Christian and leadership role background!He probably couldn't care less about the man's salvation. That is merely the 'side-effect', not the main reason to convert him.

Rag also said,"In other words, Christians should just be silent about their faith and keep it to themselvesNobody suggested this even remotely….one can show good example by ways other than providing monetary benefits for potential converts.."

Rag then said, "All religions that teach to convert non-believers cannot escape from bribery of some kind (monetary benefits, promises of miracles and powers to do the same, heaven, immortality etc. all these are bribes period...). "

So, giving treats to a dog for good behaviour, bribery.Allowing a child to play his games after completing his homework, bribery.Giving a child his allowance after completing his chores, bribery.Giving a man his bonus for a good job, bribery.

That's the kind of bribery Rag is trying to teach everyone.And also wants to degrade good Christian outreach to the poor and needy (Christian or non) to merely "number games", instead of actually wanting to help people to improve their lives.

The funny thing is, Rag have not realized that the greatest gift that we Christians can bring to anyone (especially the poor) is God Himself.We help the poor not for our own benefits, but to bring God into their lives. With God, anything is possible.If this is bribery according to Rag, so be it. He has shown how he actually knows nothing about what is bribery. He can't tell the difference between a Christian doing good for the sake of other people from Muhammad who did good for the sake of himself, and claimed Muhammad 'gained nothing' from all that he did.

@Rag did you not read the meaning of conversion because you seriously did not read it? So i am suppose that you are oppose to movie stars holding charity to gain popularity now because its the only way to maintain a form of consistency. its not actual conversion of they are just in for the money besides we rarely do we prefer to set up schools and food deliveries and orphanages

Osama said, " I don't hate Christians. But the SAME Christians who used to be sexually open, sexually sinning, and alcoholic are the same people who change 180 degrees when they embrace Islam. "

Then they weren't Christians Osama. Just once, I would like muslims to quit lumping every single person not a muslim into the christian category. Is that too much to ask? Apparently so. From now on I'm going to start calling everyone with a pagan symbol of a moon and star (and before you get started the crescent moon with two stars is a Wiccan symbol) a muslim. Anything that has a crescent moon will hence forth be called muslim by me. I don't care if they're two gay dudes making out together who are wearing them...they're muslims to me now.

""Again, because you're a christian, you're too stupid to comprehend what you read.""

You are implying just because people are christian they can;t think. This is bigotry in your part. Stop running away like always when we bring this up. the link i posted up shows that you hate Christians and you yourself are the bigoted one.

Also Osama we do not sink as low as you do to accuse people parents had sex before marriage and call people parents whores.

remember 1 corintheans 5:5 still haven;t owed up to it if you didn;t hate Christians and not bigoted you would apologize for that massive misinterpretation but you did not every time we asked you. If muslims are suppose to be humble you are the opposite to it Osama and I ask you to set a example and step up.

"I mean imagine an assasine who is a medical doctor. That is something quite amazing."I stand by my previous statement, and the song I said that fits you. You see a "Zionist" behind every bush and blame them for the evils Muslims do, as well I believe have made up anti-semetic lies about Jews (controlling the US, the world encomy), and Israel as a state as a whole (claims of "occupation", or the illegality of Isreal) that goes beyond the pale of political critism and into hard racism.

And as Aaron pointed out, you've MANY times made vile sweeping statements about Christians as a whole (being a part of "whoredom" etc.

(And of course, Samatar is SHOCKED, Shocked I tell you to find that Osama (and Kim, and Kangaroo, etc.) over the years have been spouting anti-Christian and Anti-semetic bigotry over the years, even when he posts directly after the psts point them out, and missing all the times they actually happen. Oh well.)

I saw NOTHING in what you wrote that showed I 'shot myself in the foot'.

Muhammad gained PLENTY of benefits …. satisfy his sexual desires...

You can't tell apart a person doing good for good from a person doing good for selfish reasons and you want preach to us about what's bribery?Do you want me to list what Christians have gained by increasing their numbers through history…churches gained more following and tithing and therefore more money…leaders of church gained more political control….catholic church and and many other churches are listed as MNCs by legal departments in many countries….there is no single religious organization in the world having such widespread political, economic and social influence as catholic or evangelical churches…hell these churches have even banks of their own….you want to talk about gains….

You assume a Muslim ike Shah Zahoor's reason for bribing converts is to bring them to salvation? …….He probably couldn't care less about the man's salvation. That is merely the 'side-effect', not the main reason to convert him.It does not matter…his final goal is to lead people to salvation according to his dogma and it is allowed in his dogma…So stop complaining about missionaries!Christian missionaries provide food, shelter, education, job, etc to the needy... NOT monetary benefits.All of the above are monetary benefits in exchange for “conversion” and hence bribe….hence I will not shut up…

So, giving treats to a dog for good behaviour, bribery.Allowing a child to play his games after completing his homework, bribery.Giving a child his allowance after completing his chores, bribery.All of the above are bribery as the giver achieved his goal(s) by giving something…Giving a man his bonus for a good job, bribery.This is not the case for bribery as this man earned his way….

And also wants to degrade good Christian outreach to the poor and needy (Christian or non) to merely "number games", instead of actually wanting to help people to improve their lives.This is your one sided perspective, as all believers make…Christians believe that converting and saving souls is the best thing they can give and so use charity etc. as bribe to achieve this goal…As long as “conversion” agenda is mixed with charity work it is bribery..

The funny thing is, Rag have not realized that the greatest gift that we Christians can bring to anyone (especially the poor) is God Himself.You just proved my point here..…what you do not understand is that muslims also feel the same way, only they do to the extent of torturing, bullying, threatening etc..We help the poor not for our own benefits, but to bring God into their lives. With God, anything is possible.It does not matter what you believe….What I see is reality….I see increase in number of Christians, more churches built, churches gaining more following, more tithing, more churches and see Christian influence spreading into economics and politics….classic case of franchise marketing….this is inevitable in this world….

If this is bribery according to Rag, so be it. He has shown how he actually knows nothing about what is bribery. He can't tell the difference between a Christian doing good for the sake of other people from Muhammad who did good for the sake of himself, and claimed Muhammad 'gained nothing' from all that he did.Blind faith leads to such hypocritical conclusions….My point above proves just the opposite….Christians do gain in terms of power, social influence inevitably leading to political strongholds and economic power…Example is catholics in Ireland sidelined by evangelicals in jobs and economically…the entire war between two Christian group tells the tale…the same between orthodox and evangelicals in Russia…between islam and Christianity and between most religions and these two middle eastern religions…conflict starts because it is number games….”charity” is strategy of all Christian churches to increase numbers…in the past churches did use other crude violent methods before….given a chance they will…and have done the same in many parts even in recent years (funding terrorist orgs like LTTE, NLFT for example)…their operations have got more sophisticated..

@Rag did you not read the meaning of conversion because you seriously did not read it?It does not matter what you think is the meaning of conversion….Man/women keep changing their pattern of thinking depending on situation…so called string atheists turn to theists (whatever variety) or Buddhists….chrisians become muslims, muslims become Christians, others become Hindus, Hindus become muslims or Christians or atheists…there are people who were religious become atheist and again become believers…there is so much uncertainty on what a man/woman will do in a certain situation, precisely because he/she does not know what is right….belief or faith one’s strongly held withers away like a water vapour because of various reasons…So all this thing about belief, conversion etc. is nonsense….instead everyone should honestly accept that they do not know what is truth and let people find this truth by themselves….using people’s poverty for conversion is the most heinous assault on their freedom and can be nothing more than political number game….churches and Islamic imperialists have used this “saving soul” game for their own interests….there may be naïve people believing in this lies and sincerely working for churches thinking they are doing good….but in reality they have paved the way for hell on this Earth…All major wars (involving slaughter of innocent non-beleivers) are centered around the three desert religions for a reason…. So i am suppose that you are oppose to movie stars holding charity to gain popularity now because its the only way to maintain a form of consistency. ????its not actual conversion of they are just in for the money besides we rarely do we prefer to set up schools and food deliveries and orphanages

please answer the question this timeYou have little experience how mind can change and be influenced so easily….so “actual conversion” or “not actual conversion” argument which is all “belief” implying that one does not know the reality does not hold…There is a reason why churches go for schools and orphanages….namely “get them when they are too young”…best age for brainwashing….instill in them fear of hell (stick) and hope for heaven (carrot) and they will never leave the church…carrot and stick…it’s a good investment to breed slaves who willingly serve your goals….

I notice you spoke nothing about your not realizing Muhammad gained plenty of benefits from bribing people to following him.

Rag said,"Do you want me to list what Christians have gained by increasing their numbers through history…churches gained more following and tithing and therefore more money"

Hello... have you forgotten something here... *POOR*, *NEEDY* people.I don think adding more poor people into the congregation that is being helped by the church gonna contribute any more to the church, monetarily or political influence-wise.Or am I supposed to think otherwise?

In order to gain such political or economical influence, one must get the middle and upper class group... not the low needy group.

Rag also said,"It does not matter…his final goal is to lead people to salvation according to his dogma and it is allowed in his dogma…"

His final goal? I just pointed out what he most likely reason to convert a devout Christian leader is, which is anything but the man's salvation.. and you still parrot that that is his final goal?

Let's quote what Shah Zahoor said himself.."But one thing i have seen although u are young only 23 years old and many good Christian Apologists like Matt and Zia and you all three four are good and u ask good questions David I myself and my teacher Mufti Inam ullah also said that u are good in debates and u show new things from different dimention and from different sides...we offer you David Paul Abraham too accept islam and work with us......u work with us in our Dawah organization... u are too good and sharp like Our Imam Shabir Ally..."

What's his final goal?

Rag said,"All of the above are monetary benefits in exchange for “conversion” and hence bribe….hence I will not shut up…"

Rag then said,"So, giving treats to a dog for good behaviour, bribery.Allowing a child to play his games after completing his homework, bribery.Giving a child his allowance after completing his chores, bribery.All of the above are bribery as the giver achieved his goal(s) by giving something…"

That says it all right there.

Rag then boasted,"Blind faith leads to such hypocritical conclusions….My point above proves just the opposite….Christians do gain in terms of power, social influence inevitably leading to political strongholds and economic power"

Sure, political strongholds and economic power by gaining many poor, needy followers which they themselves are providing the 'monetary' support. Circular reasoning.

@RAG"using people’s poverty for conversion is the most heinous assault on their freedom and can be nothing more than political number game….churches and Islamic imperialists have used this “saving soul” game for their own interests…."

Rag you are shooting yourself in the foot this one.

so in your atheist world your movie stars and your rich who hold charities are doing for their "own interest" as you claim as they are using it to elevate public support and also taking advantage of the poor, using them as a political tool to elevate their position. also at the same time "conversion" the poor to believe the rich are all good people and good role models and creating "slaves" as you put it.

since according to you conversion = change of belief and thus you must condemn your very own society and yourself for being part of it if you are to remain consistent. logical fallacy of tu qou que here RAGs

"You have little experience how mind can change and be influenced so easily….so “actual conversion” or “not actual conversion” argument which is all “belief” implying that one does not know the reality does not hold…"

one can easily test that out if they actually belief or not. simple job of taking it away and testing if they will hold true to it in the same environment. one can simple set up a experiment when the said charity only uses food and clothing and suddenly goes away. if they actually have faith then they will continue to do so if not we can see. therefore actual conversion can be validated. Also for one to be able to make this claim you must have all knowledge in meta physics to be able to be in a position to say it

"All major wars (involving slaughter of innocent non-believers) are centered around the three desert religions for a reason…."

alright Rag i need you to do some homework because the burden of proof falls upon you when you are making such a claim. Give us the exact reason and back it up with the text from the holy books especially one on Christian. If the action is not supported in those books we can conclude that they acted on their own free in spite of their religion. going on ranting about it without actual proof is not doing you any good.

"There is a reason why churches go for schools and orphanages….namely “get them when they are too young”…best age for brainwashing….instill in them fear of hell (stick) and hope for heaven (carrot) and they will never leave the church…carrot and stick…it’s a good investment to breed slaves who willingly serve your goals…."

And normal society does not brain washed people to think that multiculturalism works? the reality is that all other cultures are setting up their own ghettos. we are brain washed to think that multiculturalism is all good (which it is) but without understanding the political purpose behind of controlling other minorities. these are your own standards which means you must condemn yourself too

@ rags"So, giving treats to a dog for good behaviour, bribery.Allowing a child to play his games after completing his homework, bribery.Giving a child his allowance after completing his chores, bribery.All of the above are bribery as the giver achieved his goal(s) by giving something…Giving a man his bonus for a good job, bribery.This is not the case for bribery as this man earned his way…. "

also since all of the above is a reward for some type of service all are bribery. i know more then you on this department because they are all incentives to do something

@rags"o you want me to list what Christians have gained by increasing their numbers through history"

I can't laugh at how big of mistake of history you are. let see church attendance before after WW2 was alot (not sure if they were actual Christians or not) Christians population went on a steep decline. If they were christians we wouldn;t be finding certain bills we find morally wrong passed by the US government. please get your facts right.

Many of those people that you call fornicators and alcoholic accept Christ and stop those things as well. Your heart, soul and mind are so twisted you cannot even see how ridiculous your statements are. You spew hatred and bigotry all of the time. And this comment reveals it and how hypocritical you are.

Many of these nominal born Christians who do not live the life or follow Christ but call themselves Christian because they are born into it later accept his teachings and him fully and stop alcohol and fornicating. Your just so illogical AND IRRATIONAL IT IS RIDICULOUS THAT WE HAVE TO POINT THESE SIMPLE STATEMENT TO YOU.

PREPOSTEROUS!

i know several Muslims who go to the club, pick up women, get drunk, do drugs, and have sex with as many women as they can. LOL! You are a bigot and a non thinking hypocrite!

You make no sense. Sure some so called missionaries bribe people. Some people do things for other without wanting anything in return. This is a philosophical question.

Arent almost all of your actions selfish in some way or another. This is human nature. But Christs doctrine says to give of ones self wanting nothing in return. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Luke 6:27-36

[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

[32] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [33] And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. [34] And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. [35] But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. [36] Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

YES PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS! JESUS CALLS FOR A HIGHER STANDARD! MUSLIMS ARE NOT CALLED TO A HIGHER STANDARD! Yes people fall short. Muslims dont have anywhere to fall. Christians have far to fall. Its a higher standard. Yes Christians fail, that doesnt negate the higher standard. Get it?

@RagYou said "There is nothing wrong in helping the poor and needy, but the intention is what is in question here..You claim here saving souls is good as per your belief, and muslims similarly believe by hook or crook or torture or threats or bribery a soul must be saved."

- Thats the thing, a Christian missionary is there for the soul, because thats what Jesus commanded us, also the bible says 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil" so no real Christian missionary is gonna preach trying to reach them through money, but they understand these ppl has needs, the bible says also in James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." -So as you can see we do what we do because it makes sense, we are there to save their souls but our love for that ppl tell us we must help them with their needs, and thats a huge difference from the Islamic view of bribing ppl to deceive other ppl, we don't try to convert ppl through money or food or clothes and if some "missionaries" are doing that, according to the Bible they are wrong, but we do help ppl with these needs because of love. So actually you are with me on this, we do what we do because our god commands us to have love for those ppl, muslims do what they do (torturing deceiving, bribing, etc) because their god commands them to do such(I think that all honest ppl would agree that the Bible is far away more higher on values than the Quran on this, actually it has no point to compare since it isn't even about the same subject of "how to convert ppl to our religion" as it is when we talk about Islam bribing ppl.

@Rag You then said "This is just strategy…..christians work from grass-roots (poor people, majority), while muslims take top-down approach (grabbing leaders)……both finally want conformity and conversion and seek ways to have conformity at a global scale…"

-Again you are not answering or even reading what i wrote, you say this is "strategy", where is that on my Bible, as you see it in the Quran? nowhere!! nowhere in the bible it says we must use this kinds of tricks, it actually says Matthew 10:14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet." Nowhere it says to deceive, bribe, gather an army or anything like it, so i see you are actually debating your own ideas, you came here with the idea that we are to use all kind of dishonest tricks to get ppl converted, then i/we quoted you the bible saying the contrary, and then you come back again with the same idea which means you are not reading or you are debating yourself.

-Then you wrote "Bribery is doing good to someone with the intent of bringing benefit to one's own self." As i quoted you, we are to preach so THEY can be saved, in example the apostles they were missionaries, and what good they got for themselves? a secure death by Rome/others, were they making big amounts of money for themselves? no because the bible actually says they were spending all the money traveling through out the world and making churches, being jailed, tortured, executed, etc. So you quote that and i can see very easy it fits with Muhammads intentions, yet i can see how is it related to the Missionaries who are preaching the word for the reasons the Bible teaches them.

@Rag you also wrote "Exactly…if by good example you mean monetary benefit in exchange for conversion or hope for conversion, then it is bribery…You achieved your goal by monetary means….it is BRIBERY.." -Again i must ask, where is that written, where is it said that they do this because of convertions and not because i quoted you before (i.e of other verses that teaches us to help the poors?). You just want to keep that idea in your mind even if it is not consistent..

What is really funny is that if these Missionaries only were preaching there, not gibing food, or clothes, etc to anyone, they would be saying "Where is the love of these ppl that just send ppl to preach fairy tales to ppl dying of hungry" or something like it, hahaha, it's funny the way they always try to attack Christianity one way or another.(failing as you can see)

Your position is so convoluted that I'm honestly having a hard time understanding it. Just what is it that you want us to do? So you say preaching and good works should be totally separate. Already, you've said that you're not saying Christians should just shut up and keep it to themselves, but then that means that your advocating that preachers do nothing for the people they mean to share the gospel with, which kind of seemed to be what you were complaining about with your link, Christians NOT helping people in need. But apparently, even if Christians do good without expecting people to convert, as long as it's done to the glory of God and along with sharing the gospel, then it amounts to a form of bribery, which is apparently the ultimate sin in your twisted version of Hinduism. Even the most secular atheists would not condemn the good done by working hands just because it's done alongside the preaching of what they are against.

So just what do you expect to benefit from convincing us to adopt your position (whatever that is...)? Or do you expect us to benefit from 'converting' in some way (but I guess that's a form of 'bribery')? If it benefits no one, then why even bring it up.

It's clear that you haven't been honest about your true intentions, which is why they're so convoluted. It's clear that your real motivation is in discrediting Abrahamic faith (or at least the two that seek to convert) and missions out of an anger at what you've seen/read about. It's clear that you WOULD rather these faiths go away, that people NOT preach them, but it's hard for you to admit that because it would require you to lose your moral highground as a Hindu that your worldview is the most tolerant. Actually, what you're doing here is a kind of 'missionizing' if what missionaries do is a form of 'bribery'. You're trying to 'convert' people to see things your way I'm assuming.

You don't seem to understand that to do one without the other is to disobey our Lord.

"If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them." - James 4:17

Actually, why don't you read James before replying?

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." - James 1:27

"If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." - James 2:16-17

Sure, political strongholds and economic power by gaining many poor, needy followers which they themselves are providing the 'monetary' support. Circular reasoning.Zack, you have a myopic view of the world in terms of time….while I see the world over at the least a decade….and I do see grassroots movement (conversions) do ultimately lead to political and economic power in a democratic society. Churches have gained in this arena a lot….even after giving examples of catholic and evangelical churches, it ain’t clear to you…the economic and political muscle they can flex, especially in third world countries is sizeable and have seen this first hand to be the case….churches and Christian missionaries are involved is a grand social engineering through conversions….as I said, your views are myopic…Aaron…You are talking nonsense…there is a big difference between big religious organizations and those who do freelance charities (like movie stars) as longas as they do individually and not couple it with churches or other religious orgs…You are talking about taking away jobs etc…..to test reality of conversion….this is again myopic…..each person has a limit of endurance…not all can withstand, but everyone will break when given enough…the trick is to what is enough in each person’s case…this is what your churches specialize in…social engineering….it is not for some time pass many missionaries take courses and have degrees in psychology and social engineering..Regarding wars…..it is part of history…whether the so called xian holy books sanction it or not is not my goal here….but 1600 years of bloody christian history proves it ….from inquisitions, witch burning episodes, crusades in which several jews were murdered, etc. etc….2nd world war started with Christians committing genocide against jews…I know you are goung to say it is Nazis, not Christians!!! I wonder why Nazism spread in a Christian majority continent…there is no smoke without fire… no wonder gospels call jews as synagogue of satan…that the sin of killing your god squarely falls on all jews of all time etc. etc…Martin Luther (founder of protestant) has such vile garbage poured on jews in his works, don’t ask me for the link or proof because I can provide one from Jewish websites…I do not believe in multiculturalism, especially with intolerant muslims or Christians (especially the evangelical types)…as both are bent on only one thing…power over others…intolerant religions cannot accommodate anybody else and multiculturalism will not work…only tolerant politically unmotivated religions can accommodate others…

Aaron, paying for work done by employees legally according to mutually agreed contract (employment) is salary…whether you call it reward or anything else (we are not playing mere word games here), but paying somebody in advance for a favor or getting him/her to your side is BRIBERY…Regadrinf your frame of reference, just take a look at what political influence churches have on the ballot box in usa…every potential candidate (president) in usa must declare himself as a Christian believer…does a person who declares himself as a staunch atheist or say a Hindu or Buddhist even stand a chance….there was such a hue and cry for a simple Hindu prayer in a senate (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19729245/ns/politics/t/hindu-prayer-senate-disrupted/ ) and such opposition by christians….so much for no political influence…You are crying about falling church attendance, but you yourself admitted that Christians do like to influence politics by your own statement…” If they were christians we wouldn;t be finding certain bills we find morally wrong passed by the US government.”….and this is exactly my point, the point that churches increase their numbers only to gain economic and political control over minorties…Search4trutth and cristi-te-ama…I am not making a mere philosophical question here…I have no problems if what you are saying is being followed ideally…but reality is indeed very different…and this is what I am addressing…If missionaries honestly declare their intent and do their services to converts it is one thing….but reality is mostly otherwise….churches are run like multi-national corporations and I have in the field experience on this where people’s poverty are taken advantage…a few of the stories come out, but because missionaries and their orgs who deal in millions of dollars have such political influence, many stories do not even find light of the day….The reality is missionaries first hand out money under the condition they would become believers…this is how in reality “Christian charity” takes place in non-christian countries…if one does not agree to become Christian, he/she is denied any help….or charged exorbitantly to have those services (for example, medical services)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVH5wKspLbYhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Zxjndf0mw (watch the three parts)Christian missionaries and their organizations are about increasing their numbers (do not care what bible allegedly teaches)..otherwise why are they involved in big social engineering projects in non-Christian countries….otherwise why such huge amount of money is spent by Christian (in terms of half a billion US dollars/per year in India alone) orgs? When such huge amount of money is involved the goal is always political and economic control over others….Majority of this money is involved in bring government officials in India, buying up huge lands in cities in villages, sometimes planting (building) more churches than that is required for local Christian population…all these shows what Christianity is about in reality….

dstewart …I do not understand what you want to say…..My point is simple….Christians can advertise preaching activities etc. to attract converts, but instead use so called charity to force conversion of especially poor needy non-christians….this is reality…Why is it Christians always combine “charity” work with preaching? Especially because they want to use charity as a tool to force potential converts using various techniques..if Christians help feloow Christians with money it is one thing, but why always Christians and their multi-million dollar churches go in search for prospective poor non-christians? Answer is to bribe them to convert…these churches are harvesting souls in their own words (in other words just as a farmer gains from his harvest so do churches in terms of number of followers)…this is very simple to understand…but being believers, you Christians will deny it with some bible verses…bible is after all a dead book…..nothing more…end of story….Now we are not talking about individuals, but about pan-Christian world stands to gain by this grand plan….a christian third world country is more pliable to Churches and imperial Christian west than a non-christian third world power….this is all about economics….Muhammad did the same thing…now the Saudis are rich and hold much power and control….in a similar way, Christian west now holds much economic power and access to world resources…social engineering (churche’s aim) is to control public opinion…ultimately leading to mind slaves….just like islamic zombies…You don't seem to understand that to do one without the other is to disobey our Lord.But why combine both always and use poverty as a means to convert? I do regard all abrahamic religions as evil…I do not have to be dishonest about it…I can discredit all three abrahamic religions with very simple logic…but this ain’t my aim…my aim is to expose what Christian missionaries and Christian churches do to not only non-Christians but Christians also? All I can ask Christians who wontedly blind themselves is to ask the question why and how Christian churches came to hold such big economic (several billions of dollars) and political power? Do you think such big orgs are free of corruption? Why do Christians donate and work for such orgs? Are they not serving corrupt people? If what I have exposed about churches does not wake you up, then nothing can, except ripping apart the lies of your religion just like islam…

Yes, they are ripe for harvest. If you preach to some, they will believe, others not. The ones that FREELY receive are the ones who are harvested (Matthew 10:8). There's nothing wrong with such an analogy unless you're reading something weird into it.

Also, there are MANY verses we've shown you. Remember that this is the book we regard as 100% divinely inspired, so we can't show you so many things FROM THE SOURCE that you're going to call deception unless you can show something else which trumps it (which you haven't). Your claim that Abrahamic religions are evil is unfounded and honestly quite strange for a Hindu or someone who claims not to care about conversions. You're certainly trying to "convert" others AWAY from Abrahamic faith. And you're just plain wrong about Judaism if your basis for claiming these religions are evil comes from the drive to convert. Jews don't do that if you haven't noticed, but they still want to show a Godly example to others, so they do good for much of the same reasons Christians do. They just have no reason to convert others to their religion. The fact that you're calling this "bribery" as soon as preaching is introduced is a real stretch when you put this little piece of info into perspective.

I personally donate to and work for good Christian organizations that do charity work without requiring the people to convert, but also make a point of preaching the gospel. Preaching isn't forcing anyone to do anything, and doing good to them is not bribery, especially since we're talking about doing good whether they're Christian or not, whether they convert or not. It's not meant to be an incentive to do ANYTHING. It's just meant to be a blessing. You've forgotten what "charity" means. It means LOVE, our highest command is to LOVE God and others. If missionaries don't do that, they're not following the Bible and we'll condemn that without hesitation. It's just that simple.

My eyes ARE opened. There's nothing you're presenting to me that I don't know. All you're doing is twisting things to say that Abrahamic faiths are evil. Your problem is we don't help Christians, but why only non-Christians? Well, this ISN'T TRUE!!! Missionaries are those who are SENT. That's what the Latin root of "mission" means. If you go to a church, you would know that we pray for each other and help each other ALL THE TIME. If there are Christians where you are, then why send missionaries. We would just support the ones there to do good! If we didn't do good to non-Christians, you'd complain that we're like a private club, so we're "bribing" non-Christians in the sense that there are benefits to being a Christian. So this is why we do good to EVERYONE, not just one or the other.

Even non-Christians recognize orgs such as the Salvation Army even though they ALWAYS do what they do for the glory of God, and always share the gospel because they KNOW what they do and they appreciate it.

No, YOU are the one who's blinded by prejudice. We've shown you FROM THE BIBLE, you haven't shown us. I've told you MY experience, and you dismiss it while expecting me to just buy yours (even though it doesn't conform to said teachings). You're selective of which missionaries you're going to point to, and I just gave you a good example of an org that DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE when they do charity work. So who's blinded by prejudice? ME? I tell you, my eyes ARE open.

My home church in Canada sends missions regularly to a First Nations reserve. They bring back pictures and have a great time. The First Nations people appreciate it. My best friend was sent to Russia with another group to build a school. They appreciated it. A Christian group at university I was a part of sent students to Ecuador to work and build stuff for a community (BTW, 95% Roman Catholic). THEY APPRECIATED IT!! The church I go to now IS basically a mission to the community it's in, and I help out there presonally. THEY DO NOT DISCRIMINATE! There are LOTS of examples of this. Why are you so focused on the odd ones? It's prejudice! You're just looking for more examples to feed it. you're exposing your activist nature more than missionaries. Everyone knows about the ones who only help if you convert. We don't like them either, OK? So what do you think we can do about them?

People get sent wherever there's a need unless it's more efficient to help local people do it themselves. The reason missionaries are sent to do it themselves is to share the gospel if there are no local Christians to support in doing that. That's why I insist that this is the part you actually have a problem with, just the preaching. All the stuff about bribery is just for the emotional appeal. Sorry, I'm not buying it!

@rag"every potential candidate (president) in usa must declare himself as a Christian believer"

you just contradicted yourself with this two statements

"You are crying about falling church attendance, but you yourself admitted that Christians do like to influence politics by your own statement…” If they were christians we wouldn;t be finding certain bills we find morally wrong passed by the US government.”….and this is exactly my point, the point that churches increase their numbers only to gain economic and political control over minorties…"

wait if you say the all politicians must be christian why did those laws get pasted?

your reality contradicts your interpretation of it then which means that is not your frame of reference of reality thus making your argument null because you are implying that we want political partner so we can influence laws. lets make a scenario where your statement was true then, why would need political power when we control the politicians are christian already?

so according to you other people have a right to lobby governments for moral laws. the next thing you will be telling me is that i can;t lobby for increase prison terms for prisoners who have done horrible crimes?

Being Christians, I knew you would all either reject what I said or at the lesat brush it off as some exception or odd ones. Notice how every Christian did not comment on billions of dollars flowing into third world countries for conversion activities...any sane man would immediately know that something is wrong when such large amount of money flows into such activity.

search4truth...I made it clear that the "ideals" of bible for charity are not in question here...but majority of charities from christian orgs are used for deceptive goals. Indian givt for example caught a German missionary fellow recently trying to fund protests (who funneled around 350 million dollars as bribe to various people) in India against building of new nuclear power plant in its southern state...There are hell lot of examples from British history in India as well where missionaries were actively involved in destabilizing the country...No matter what I say, blind believers here are not going to accept the truth...so I have decided to show the falsehood of Christianity here...which no one responded to in my earlier post...

Can any Christian explain why would any god kill himself in roder to save others?

It does not make any sense for an all powerful god who sits in judgment of others and has no rivals to kill himself and pardon others from his own judgment...it is nothing more than the height of madness.

Some Christian made a comment..

"He CHOSE to ALLOW Himself to be executed to show His love for His creation...a love that is selfless, that shows us that He would literally die to have a relationship with us."

All this sounds really good at an emotional level, but when we think a little bit rationally that we are talking about an all powerful god, then it sounds clearly ridiculous.

An all powerful can forgive by his mere will and has no need to exhibit his love by killing himself. Since god is the judge and sole entity in charge of forgiving, only he needs to be convinced. To suggest that this god killed himself in order to convince himself for forgiving others is ascribing insanity to him.

He does not need to show his love by sacrificing himself. By his mere will he can make everybody understand (not forcing but by giving knowledge of the same) how much god loves everybody. He can directly create that knowledge in every living entity. All this drama about sacrificing himself is unnecessary.

A 5th grade student can easily understand this logic.

All religions that believe in creation-ex-nihilo in some way are illogical as the locus of faults in his creation will finally converge in the creator ultimately and hence are false.

It is impossible for a omniscient creator of everything to come up with such a stupid religion. Once you understand this, then it is only one more step to understand that this hocus pocus belief is made to control masses through so called charity (bribery) and any other means. Then it would make sense to you why churches spends billions of dollars in third world countries to believe in this lies....this goes for islam also...judaism may not believe in conversion, but ain't no better..anybody who reads old testament will be shocked at the violence this so called god causes..all this yhwh knows is killing, raping, murdering, looting, kidnapping, burning etc. etc...one wonders how is this being any different than allah of quran..infact allah looks like a out of control kid in front of jehova....all these show evil breeds only evil...

The problem is you really don't understand the basics of Christian theology, or your intentionally misrepresenting it.

"An all powerful can forgive by his mere will and has no need to exhibit his love by killing himself. "No, thier problem is he can't. God is all-righteous. He cannot simply forgive sins, because he is righteous. So, he had to present an offering (which is echoed through the old testiment). It has nothing to do with a message, but the act itself is a covering for our sins.

@David,Shah Zahoor is not an apologist. In-fact, nor he, neither his teacher inamullah knows the meaning of the word 'apologist or apologetics'. They are kids.I have muzzled his teacher's mouth about an year ago. But since he did not receive good comments from his fellow muslims, he therefore, removed that debate from his channel. Lowlife losers...

And these people have the GALL to accuse Christians of bribery when the latter build schools and hospitals, dig wells, and bring disaster relief!!!??? Perhaps if Muslim themselves did such charitable works for non-Muslims, they would not have to resort to bribing people to convert to Islam. Then again, Islam expressly forbids Muslims to donate charity to "infidels". No wonder they find bribery acceptable.

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