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Shihan is nice to have but rank doesn't back up your knowledge----knowledge backs up rank. Who cares about a title?? Whether or not someone is a shihan means nothing. The skill (s)he has is what matters and what you learn is what matters. If any black belt out there put on a white belt, how much would that affect his skill? Not one bit so you keep the title and I'll take the skill. Shihan Phil (hahaha)

Hey Phil. We actually have a black belt who often wears a white belt under his hakama. I saw him when I first started and then he came back after a two month hiatus. I could of swore he was a black belt, but figured I remembered wrong or saw his hakama ties instead. He just felt like a black belt in his techniques. Turns out I remembered correctly. He is a black belt (3rd dan actually I believe)

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.

I think you are basing your comments on the situation in the USA, and so your comments also contain an implicit assumption or three that could be questioned.

Outside the USA, things are somewhat different, since national governments and olympic/sports committees take a strong interest in martial arts organizations within their national boundaries. The Aikikai is aware of this and so is happy to have the IAF as a sort of 'international democratic aikido buffer zone', dealing with such committees.

It is a curious fact that the USAF withdrew from the IAF for a while--the dudgeon level was quite high--and I am certain that the withdrawal was connected with my activities as General Secretary. However, the USAF rejoined a few years later and the present IAF General Secretary resides in Boulder, Colorado. Yamada Sensei takes his position as a member of the IAF Superior Council very seriously. Of course, now that he is 70, he wants to retire--but I keep telling him he can't--not just yet.

Best,

PAG

Quote:

Fred Little wrote:

Dan,

I thought these were interesting questions, each of which contains an implicit assumption or three that could be questioned.

4. Is it not the case that the title of Shihan conferred on students of Chiba and Yamada is virtually meaningless outside the Birankai and the USAF? More broadly, Is it not the case that -- aside from a koryu menkyo kaiden -- virtually all Japanese martial art ranks and titles are meaningless outside the context of a continuing relationship with the instructor who awarded them?

5. Does a significant proportion of the ma student population sign up with particular martial arts instructors on the grounds of franchise brand identification? Or is it more typically location, art, quality, and affiliation -- in that order? In over twenty years, I have not had a single individual train with me because of my affiliation, though I have had a number of individuals who have trained with me (or allowed me to train with them) in spite of my affiliations. Your recent experiment in opening up your barn seems to suggest a corollary: Is it not the case that the arts have matured to the extent that more and more discerning practitioners are looking beyond the three questions of location, art, and affiliation, and will cross state,art,and organizational lines in order to find quality?

The upshot? I think Hombu and the IAF have a window of opportunity that is rapidly closing. Unless these organizations are seen as adding value -- either in terms of maintaining and improving technical standards, or in terms of prestige enhancement for those who are actually doing so -- the reasons for continued engagement with them become increasingly unclear, and the matter will play itself out as the organizations which are currently centered on individual shihan undergo the next phase of division and reproduction, a process which is already well underway in every organization in the United States.

Hey Phil. We actually have a black belt who often wears a white belt under his hakama. I saw him when I first started and then he came back after a two month hiatus. I could of swore he was a black belt, but figured I remembered wrong or saw his hakama ties instead. He just felt like a black belt in his techniques. Turns out I remembered correctly. He is a black belt (3rd dan actually I believe)

Ashley, you might find that a lot of Birnakai yudansha wear white belts. Even some of the shihan. Then again, they're not the kind of white that you'd want for a Tide commercial.

So if yudansha have white belts, some mudansha have hakama, and shihans may or may not *really* be shihan...guess it just comes down to how good one's aikido is.

This is a first stab at a response. Apologies, but this will be a long post. Comments are marked PAG.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Interesting question. Not because of DR but rather to examine other modes of transmission in the more traditional Japanese arts as well.
In Koryu what you teach and even who you are allowed to teach is usually tightly controlled.
Once someone reaches the level of Menkyo kaiden (different titles for different arts) they are allowed to teach who they want and or to change the art any way they see fit- as if it is now a separate art. Let the chips fall where they may.
In any given art in any generation you might have several branches-with teachers adding a flavor to the central expression. It was not uncommon for some of those" flavors" to actually be BETTER than the central branch of any given art. That said there was no way to regain or rest control of the art back from those licensed to teach.
Since there is no Menkyo system in modern arts-to include Aikido; there is no completion or graduation set up in those arts. Therefore at any point the Aikikai could pull the rank of anyone. I am not making a judgment of whether or not a Shihan would care if the Hombu did that; just that it remains that they could. It seems aikido is interested in regaining more control of the art. The question remains whether it ever lost control to begin with.

PAG. If you set side-by-side the autonomy and independence offered by a full-blown menkyo system and the Aikikai, considered as a monolith, with the dan given under conditions of continued good behavior, I suppose the differences would be very striking. However, this has never been my own experience with the Aikikai. It seems to me that the Aikikai, like a Japanese koryu, operates on the understanding that once you give someone some responsibility: to run a department or a dojo, for example, then you also trust that person to use his best judgment within a very broad framework of rules—considered as customs with desirable outcomes, rather than as Kantian deontological imperatives. This point is so fundamental to Japanese culture that it is often missed: it is ‘hidden in plain sight'.
I have just checked on the Aikikai's website and find that I am one of the very few non-Japanese to run a dojo here. In addition, though it took some time to do so, I formally split from my old teacher and my dojo is now independent of any organization. Of course, I have a direct connection to the Aikikai and deliver kyu and dan ranks that are recognized by the Aikikai, but I have complete independence to teach aikido how I wish. I could, for example, invite M Akuzawa here on a regular basis and incorporate all of his training exercises into our aikido syllabus. So, in some sense my dojo is going against the trend overseas and I think the reason for this is, well, that aikido in Japan is considered ‘different' from aikido overseas, and also that I happened to have the clout to badger Doshu directly into giving me independence, for it would never have happened without his approval.
I also know the few people who at present run the Aikikai's international department. They work very hard and have Doshu's broad approval to run the department as they think fit. I am not certain when the new model originated, but I am reasonably certain that it was a reaction to squabbles among Japanese shihan in Europe and a response to calls for a network of continental ‘Hombu' outside Japan. The immediate occasion was a response to the abolition of the old one-country-one-organization model.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

I think folks have missed some central issues and have yet to ask some very clear administrative questions of their official representatives.

I think in all the emotion on the thread the central question remains unanswered. The original question was not about what happened in the past, (Tissier and others) but rather about Peter's post about the new model and where the Aikikai is headed.
So

PAG. I think at the outset that this has to be stated quite clearly. The effect of the new model is that teaching titles (including shihan) make sense only within the organizations within which they have validity, whether these are individual dojo (in Japan), or overseas organizations, like the USAF, or the Aikikai as a whole.
The new model must also be seen in relation to the old model that it replaces. The old model was centered around individual direct disciples of the Founder, like Y Yamada and N Tamura (Mr Tani's first category), who lived and taught abroad and who ran their territories like aikido daimyo (after the established Hombu model in Japan). However, the new model effectively abolishes aikido daimyo shihan in the first category and severely limits the scope of shihan in the remaining categories. For the new model focuses entirely on aikido organizations, serviced from a ‘super-organization' in Japan. (The only problem with this model is the one I alluded to earlier in this post: the emphasis in Japan is on individuals, caused by a vertically structured organizational pattern.)
I think that K Chiba's Birankai is a response to the Hombu's new model. It is the model of an organization that is vertically structured and gives a degree of authority to a sub-class of students. (Some background: Way back in the 1980s I used to have arguments with Chiba Sensei about the structure of aikido organizations. At that time, he appeared to believe that aikido was essentially anarchic: the possibilities could never be constrained within an organizational structure. Aikido was essentially Thatcherite and there were no aikido social structures. The problem for me was that, while this might be true, aikido has been structured as an organization ever since O Sensei created the Kobukan. So the Birankai is first and foremost an organization. I think it depends on where you draw the line between the organization and the individual power of those who run the organizations.)

An alternative model seems to be the one favored at times by Sokaku Takeda: of a teacher with no home base, but with a core of committed disciples, who are trained in intensive bursts by a teacher who constantly moves from place to place. However, I think Daito-ryu abandoned this model quite early on.

Secondly, though it is out of date (in terms of who is in each category and was out of date as soon as it was issued), the general framework of M Tani's classification of shihan into four general internal categories is unlikely to change, since it is based on some clear political decisions made within the Hombu. The Aikikai still need to maintain the official status of super-shihans like N Tamura and Y Yamada, whose deshi relationship with O Sensei and Kisshomaru Doshu is the reason for this status. On the other hand, there will soon be no one left with this close deshi relationship and it remains to be seen whether the Aikikai will award the status of Hombu Shihan to those who have an analogous relationship with the present Doshu. As for the other categories in Mr Tani's list, there is no sign that the appointment of shihan will end, so long as there are people around to fill these categories, and people in Japan will still popularly be regarded as shihan when they reach 6th dan, even there are no official pieces of paper.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

1. Will there be any issuance of shihan rank to anyone of any race in any branch that will be recognized by hombu...OTHER than Japanese people trained at the hombu.

PAG. There is nothing in the system to prevent this, but I think that it is extremely unlikely that the imbalance of Japanese/non-Japanese in Mr Tani's four shihan categories will change any time soon. It is built into the system that the first two categories of shihan are Japanese—and this is actually quite unfair to Christian Tissier, who did his time in the Hombu and should really be included in the second category. However, this appears not to be an issue for the French.
There is also a very high possibility that members of the third category will be Japanese, since they need to function as ‘internal' members of the Aikikai Hombu. As far as I know, there is only one non-Japanese, Anthony Hind, who has been training as a deshi in the Hombu long enough to have reasonable rank, but he is no longer there. I also know very well from my own experience outside aikido in Japan that the playing field is rarely level and that the goalposts can change unexpectedly.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

2. Is the future...again future- going to see ONLY Japanese teachers from hombu as recognized shihan by the aikikai? Will western teachers trained at the aikikai to 6th dan in Japan be recognized as shihan? In other words clearing up issues of race over affiliation.
Those are narrow and specific parameters.

PAG. For this to happen, I think you would need to see an influx of foreign members of the Hombu Teaching Department and I think this is extremely unlikely to happen. As I stated above, Anthony Hind is the only recent long-term foreign deshi I know of. Other foreigners have trained—and lived—in the Hombu for a limited period of time, but have returned home. My reason for thinking in this way is my experience in the Japanese national university system—which, like the Hombu, is bound by the shackles of traditional Japanese thinking. I was the first fully tenured foreign professor in my university, but the reason why I was reasonably successful is that I was able to function fully as a Japanese—attending and chairing committees, standing up in meetings and giving largely meaningless allocutions in fluent Japanese, but also able to function as a native speaker of English where necessary (such as composing university entrance examination questions of such difficulty that my Japanese colleagues could not answer them: this was never held against me).

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

If that is so, can the IAF address the issue in a more formal way? Isn't part of it's mandate to explain and interpret the Japanese honne for us unaware westerners in a clear manner?

PAG. No, this is not part of the IAF's mandate. Interpreting the Japanese honne for the folks on AikiWeb is something that I myself have been doing ever since I attended the first Aiki Expo. I have been doing it as someone who has lived in Japan for longer than most non-Japanese aikidoka—and as someone who also happens to be Chairman of the IAF. It is an interesting coincidence that two contributors of Jun's monthly AikiWeb columns happen to be to the two most senior elected officials in the IAF. I am Chairman and Stefan Stenudd is Vice-Chairman. I cannot speak for Stefan, but I do not see any conflict of interest in being a good Chairman and looking after the interests of IAF members and also contributing to Aikiweb. However, my successor could be someone who does not live here, or whose knowledge of the Japanese honne extends no further than his/her own local training.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

3. Will the current 6th dans see their 7th dan rank and possible 8th dan recognized by the Aikikai but never be recognized as a shihan by the Aikikai? They get one- but never the other?

PAG. This is quite possible. In fact I know a number of Japanese with 7th dan rank who have not been recognized as shihan in Japan. Mr Tani himself is one such person and he is right inside the Hombu.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

4. Do you think their teachers lets say Saotome should just promote them to Shihan anyway even though it will be virtually meaningless outside of the ASU?

PAG. I am sure this could happen. The USAF has taken it upon itself to promote as many shihan as possible. In some respects, this is a response to K Chiba's creation of the Birankai, where he gives his own shihan titles and also his own dan ranks. I have had some very interesting conversations with Doshu about this.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

5. If the Aikikai removes its support from various Japanese Shihan abroad, thus limit their teaching creds, then isn't the aikikai inviting students to leave those teachers and re-align with aikikai approved super teachers.

PAG. This could happen in the short term, but I think it is unlikely. The tendency is that there soon will be no more Aikikai approved super teachers.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

6. Under what conditions did does a Japanese teacher training under a Japanese teacher -like Ikeda under Saotome -get to be recognized as a Shihan but not Gleason, or Ledyard?

PAG. I think that in this discussion the ASU is an anomaly. As far as I know, Hiroshi Ikeda is M Saotome's anointed successor as head of the ASU, but he does not appear anywhere on M Tani's list. Actually, I wonder whether there are any shihan at all in the ASU (apart from M Saotome himself, who is popularly regarded as a ‘Hombu Super Shihan' by default). As I stated before, when I once asked Doshu why the ASU was not on the Aikikai's list of recognized organizations in the US, his response was that everything was handled via M Saotome. However, this is not really a matter for the IAF to be concerned with.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Other than translating and interpreting for us, does the IAF have the capacity to interject in decisions? Lacking that, can it clear up a rather ambiguous state of affairs and answer pointed questions?

PAG. Well, although the IAF is part of the Aikikai's organizational structure, it is not the Aikikai Hombu. As such, it does not have the structural capacity to interject in Hombu decision-making. However, it does have a ‘non-structural' capacity and it does interject. Actually, the last time it did interject was at the request of Yamada Sensei.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Has any action, input, opinion, or stance been taken since that time (aprox. 2007) to respond to those Western practitioners unhappy with the decisions of the Aikikai? Or is it a case that the opinions are not necessarily "unrepresented," but rather that they are just "meaningless" in the long run?

PAG. Yes, I think so. However, this has been taken by individual officers and not by the IAF as a whole, at a Congress, for example.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Cheers
Dan

PAG. And best wishes to you, too. I went to the barbers yesterday, so I do not have much hair to let down, but I hope I have let it down long enough.

It in not true that just japanese can become shihan.
As a proof I can testemony that here in Brazil the organization that I belong the Brazil Aikikai Confederation it´s technical director, Wagner Bull Sensei , in last january, received the title of Shihan issued by Aikikai Hombu Dojo and I saw the paper. Anyone interested to see the certificate can look and the link :

Shihan is nice to have but rank doesn't back up your knowledge----knowledge backs up rank. Who cares about a title?? Whether or not someone is a shihan means nothing. The skill (s)he has is what matters and what you learn is what matters. If any black belt out there put on a white belt, how much would that affect his skill? Not one bit so you keep the title and I'll take the skill. Shihan Phil (hahaha)

Excellent post! I agree with you 100%! This is has gotten out of hand. Just because Japan says you are Shihan doesn't mean anything. They award the title based on someone's recommendation.Unless they see it for themselves, how much can it really mean. This whole rank and title stuff has gotten really out of hand.

Well I'm looking at the long-term vision. I think the time is coming when people will stop looking to the *mystical* orient for the goods. As I understand it, the situation is currently that instead of letting all people who achieve martial power/ability equal to or surpassing that of the super shihan become super shihan themselves - the best they can hope for is an internal title. And you might not think it matters, but as George Ledyard explained, he makes his living teaching aikido, and he is just not going to get the same exposure as someone with the big title.

Also, the shihan are the people who get the money when the 1.5 million people in aikido pay dues and pay for testing. Seems like Japan is trying to ensure that the money continues flowing in their direction. I suppose it just seems like we could think this all through and potentially come up a long term vision of our own that you know keeps US dollars in the US. But maybe I'm thinking a bit too much about the schools closing down in Detroit right now and it's coloring my through process.

Well I'm looking at the long-term vision. I think the time is coming when people will stop looking to the *mystical* orient for the goods. As I understand it, the situation is currently that instead of letting all people who achieve martial power/ability equal to or surpassing that of the super shihan become super shihan themselves - the best they can hope for is an internal title. And you might not think it matters, but as George Ledyard explained, he makes his living teaching aikido, and he is just not going to get the same exposure as someone with the big title.

Also, the shihan are the people who get the money when the 1.5 million people in aikido pay dues and pay for testing. Seems like Japan is trying to ensure that the money continues flowing in their direction. I suppose it just seems like we could think this all through and potentially come up a long term vision of our own that you know keeps US dollars in the US. But maybe I'm thinking a bit too much about the schools closing down in Detroit right now and it's coloring my through process.

Rob

The people at the top of any organization are the ones who get the money - does the shihan certification really have anything to do with that?

Tani seems to say that there are no more "super shihan" because those were a special category of direct students of the founder. A hombu dojo "shihan" is also an internal title to the hombu teaching staff. As I said, my only real problem is the uneven handling of the legacy issue in Japan.

I'm not particularly concerned right now. My question (one of them anyway) is something more like, after Saotome sensei and Ikeda sensei die, who will be the shihan where the money for testing goes? Just people in the ASU who are 6th+ dan?

1. Shihan in Saotome's ASU are internal and do not cross into other organizations.

2. Shihan in Aikikai Honbu are internal also, but do cross into other organizations.

If that is true then it doesn't exactly seem, well, fair.

The only reason Hombu Shihan cross into other organizations is because the organizations want a connection to Hombu, and not with each other. There's nothing preventing Organization A and Organization B from recognizing each other's shihan. But because both A and B want to be affiliated with the Hombu, naturally Hombu Shihan will be recognized by both. It's the result of the cultural and historical cachet that Hombu Dojo has, not any rigging of the system by the Aikikai.

Quote:

If that is true, then does the Aikikai recognize Wagner Bull as a shihan across organizations? Or just a shihan in his organization?

If Wagner Bull was doing a seminar for an ASU dojo, would the ASU dojo call him "shihan"? My guess is, yes they would. So what exactly is the issue here?

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer

The only reason Hombu Shihan cross into other organizations is because the organizations want a connection to Hombu, and not with each other. There's nothing preventing Organization A and Organization B from recognizing each other's shihan. But because both A and B want to be affiliated with the Hombu, naturally Hombu Shihan will be recognized by both. It's the result of the cultural and historical cachet that Hombu Dojo has, not any rigging of the system by the Aikikai.

If Wagner Bull was doing a seminar for an ASU dojo, would the ASU dojo call him "shihan"? My guess is, yes they would. So what exactly is the issue here?

If each organization was issuing their own shihan certificate, it wouldn't be such an issue. But they don't. The Aikikai issues the shihan certificate. That's the disconnect for me.

If the Aikikai issues shihan certificates for an organization and that status is only recognized within that organization and then if the Aikikai issues shihan certificates to its own Aikikai Honbu training staff and that status crosses over to all organizations affiliated with the Aikikai, then there is a higher status granted to Aikikai shihans as compared to other organizational shihans.

If that's true, then the Aikikai isn't really recognizing "shihan" status to people in organizations at all. If it did, then those people in other organizations would have the same status as Aikikai honbu shihan.

Again, if that isn't what's happening, I certainly hope someone will correct me.

I'm not particularly concerned right now. My question (one of them anyway) is something more like, after Saotome sensei and Ikeda sensei die, who will be the shihan where the money for testing goes? Just people in the ASU who are 6th+ dan?

Sure, that's what happens in plenty of places, including where I am right now - not a Japanese shihan in sight...

If each organization was issuing their own shihan certificate, it wouldn't be such an issue. But they don't. The Aikikai issues the shihan certificate. That's the disconnect for me.

If the Aikikai issues shihan certificates for an organization and that status is only recognized within that organization and then if the Aikikai issues shihan certificates to its own Aikikai Honbu training staff and that status crosses over to all organizations affiliated with the Aikikai, then there is a higher status granted to Aikikai shihans as compared to other organizational shihans.

If that's true, then the Aikikai isn't really recognizing "shihan" status to people in organizations at all. If it did, then those people in other organizations would have the same status as Aikikai honbu shihan.

Again, if that isn't what's happening, I certainly hope someone will correct me.

What "status" are you talking about? What perks, duties, responsibilities and duties do you believe the Hombu Shihan group have over the certified Shihan in other organizations? Grading? Anything else?

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer

If each organization was issuing their own shihan certificate, it wouldn't be such an issue. But they don't. The Aikikai issues the shihan certificate. That's the disconnect for me.

If the Aikikai issues shihan certificates for an organization and that status is only recognized within that organization and then if the Aikikai issues shihan certificates to its own Aikikai Honbu training staff and that status crosses over to all organizations affiliated with the Aikikai, then there is a higher status granted to Aikikai shihans as compared to other organizational shihans.

If that's true, then the Aikikai isn't really recognizing "shihan" status to people in organizations at all. If it did, then those people in other organizations would have the same status as Aikikai honbu shihan.

Again, if that isn't what's happening, I certainly hope someone will correct me.

What difference does it make who recognizes whose title? What should matter is if they recognize their TECHNIQUE!

I'm not sure why people are surprised and annoyed that the headquarters tries to maintain some level of control. Isn't that the role of a headquarters? Maybe the question should be, why are there no non-Japanese instructors on the Hombu staff given it's international role?

Is it racism? Is it an expectation that a sufficiently proficient foreigner should go back to his homeland to spread the word?

I think there are two basics that I'll briefly expand on:

1. Aikido originated and took root in Japan
2. Aikido hasn't been around long

It seems to me that the Japanese people simply got a sizable head start of sorts, so it's only natural that most or all the people at headquarters are Japanese. I believe in time, there will be people of other nationalities and ethnicities making decisions at headquarters. As for now, however, it seems normal to me.