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Re-read what I wrote. I was passing on first-hand experiences, not my personal opinion.

And you're killing me with the "I drive through it" logic. I used to drive through Cabrini Green to get to school, but only the world's biggest narcissist would pretend that equated to an understanding of what it was like to live there.

I basically understand what it's like to live in Oriole Park by virtue of the fact that it's not substantially different from where I live now, except that it's even further away from downtown. I work out in that area, I spend a lot of time out there, I shop out there, I eat out there... I'm pretty sure I have a better idea of what it's like there than you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

And exactly who are you to be deciding whether anyone "actually wants or needs a truly urban experience?"

You need a Midol or something, Sally. I have no care in the world whether anyone wants or needs an urban or suburban or exurban or rural experience, nor can you impute any such intention from what I read unless you've got some massive chip on your shoulder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

Since you didn't grow up here, you won't ever know what that is anyway. The "truly urban experience" is a cradle-to-grave one.

I basically understand what it's like to live in Oriole Park by virtue of the fact that it's not substantially different from where I live now, except that it's even further away from downtown. I work out in that area, I spend a lot of time out there, I shop out there, I eat out there... I'm pretty sure I have a better idea of what it's like there than you do.

And I'm quite sure you don't have a better idea than the people I've spoken to who DO LIVE THERE, and who are actually raising kids, a topic which in particular you insist on sticking your foot in your mouth over.

LOL - really, you're the self-appointed expert on everywhere from Oriole Park to Wicker Park, that speaks for itself, as does "by virtue of the fact that it's not substantially different from where I live now."

You know what's different? All of the people who live there. A concept you can't seem to wrap your head around, people are all different.

You need a Midol or something, Sally. I have no care in the world whether anyone wants or needs an urban or suburban or exurban or rural experience, nor can you impute any such intention from what I read unless you've got some massive chip on your shoulder.

Hey, you sound just like the Madison residents this guy Drover posts about in City-data.com, they apparently resort to personal insults when they can't hack it in a discussion.

The point I and others are trying to make is that normal middle class families with kids can live a good lifestyle in the outer neighborhoods of Chicago and others counter it by saying "well I would rather live in Park Ridge" or "to me those areas have all the drawbacks to the city with none of the benefits", those statements are not relevant to the discussion, no one ever said people don't have personal preferences for whatever reason. This debate started because somebody said middle class families with children cannot afford to live in Chicago and I am saying statements like that are absolutely and utterly ridiculous.

So it's beyond a stretch to think that these kind of folks are out there doing a systemic analysis of every CPS and private school in these outlying areas.

Hell, I'd bet you the majority of people in Lincoln Park/LV could find Vietnam on a topographical map before they could find Oriole Park.

Absolutely, are we supposed to be naive enough to believe that every family that moves to the suburbs from Chicago is informed about every CPS school and every neighborhood in the entire city? So I suppose if they were given a pop quiz about schools in Oriole Park and Garfield Ridge they would know all the facts cold? Please, this idea that everyone is somehow an ultra informed objective decision maker beyond reproach is for people beyond gullible.

And I'm quite sure you don't have a better idea than the people I've spoken to who DO LIVE THERE, and who are actually raising kids, a topic which in particular you insist on sticking your foot in your mouth over.

LOL - really, you're the self-appointed expert on everywhere from Oriole Park to Wicker Park, that speaks for itself, as does "by virtue of the fact that it's not substantially different from where I live now."

You know what's different? All of the people who live there. A concept you can't seem to wrap your head around, people are all different.

If they like living there, that's fine. I presume most people who have a choice about where they live choose a place they like. But here's a coincept that aparently you don't understand: the endorsement of the people who live there doesn't mean I will like living there, because my needs and values may be different from those who live there. I personally have nothing against Oriole Park or anyone who wants to live there. I just don't see the benefits of living there versus any nearby suburb with a similar built environment -- especially when kids and education come into the mix. That's all. I have no idea why that makes you so angry or why you're taking all of this so personally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

Hey, you sound just like the Madison residents this guy Drover posts about in City-data.com, they apparently resort to personal insults when they can't hack it in a discussion.

Seriously guy -- just step away from your computer until the steam stops coming out of your ears. Take a deep breath and come back when you can discuss things calmly and rationally.

Well, what are you gonna do. I would imagine the metropolitian area as a whole has grown by leaps and bounds over the last few decades.

It's an American problem. In Detroit what's happened is the city has been abandoned, now the old inner ring suburbs are starting to be abandoned.

It will be interesting, perhaps morbidly interesting, to see what happens. Some of the neighborhoods are just so undesirable that no one would want to move there. And I don't mean just because of crime. They are just ugly, there is nothing to do, there is no reason to move there.

Sorry to bring up old stuff but...
Who the HELL told you that?
Their inner ring suburbs are at about the same level as Chicago's. That would be like me saying inner ring suburbs of Chicago are starting to be abandon off of the south suburbs and Gary, IN.
Detroit is not even an abandon city, underpopulated? yes. Does it have it's neighborhoods here and there? yes. Is the average neighborhood abandon? NO. I wouldn't call 6,564 people per square mile abandon.

Anyway... I feel Chicago is racially split up which might be part of the problem. I don't think people on the northside go to the south and westsides to hang out and vise versa. Going from the southside to the northside is almost like going into a whole nother city. I have even heard people on the southside say that the northside is "The burbs" or not the "REAL" Chicago. Same with mexican's. I bet if a white group of people from the northside randomly went to a club or bar on the southside they would get looked at like their crazy and don't belong there. If they could work on this problem, it probably wouldn't be so bad.

If they like living there, that's fine. I presume most people who have a choice about where they live choose a place they like.

Are there concentration camps in Chicago I'm not aware of? Last I checked even municipal employees could live anywhere in the City limits they wanted to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drover

But here's a coincept that aparently you don't understand: the endorsement of the people who live there doesn't mean I will like living there, because my needs and values may be different from those who live there. I personally have nothing against Oriole Park or anyone who wants to live there. I just don't see the benefits of living there versus any nearby suburb with a similar built environment -- especially when kids and education come into the mix. That's all. I have no idea why that makes you so angry or why you're taking all of this so personally.

The point is, they don't need your approval. People who live in parts of the City that you don't like aren't idiots or uninformed just because you don't like their neighborhood.

Some of us - unsurprisingly, those who tend to be here for the long haul - are actually concerned about giving people interested in the City fair and objective information.

It is you who chooses to take these discussions personally, you who chooses to make every subject, every neighborhood, about YOU and about what YOU like.

So when someone is interested in parts of the City that YOU don't like, try asking yourself "hey, is their situation different than mine?" instead of the sweeping and false generalizations you often spew, assuming that it works the other way around.

You are doing Chicago and all of us who work to improve it a massive disservice - take some goddamned pride in your City and step up or shut up.

Absolutely, are we supposed to be naive enough to believe that every family that moves to the suburbs from Chicago is informed about every CPS school and every neighborhood in the entire city? So I suppose if they were given a pop quiz about schools in Oriole Park and Garfield Ridge they would know all the facts cold? Please, this idea that everyone is somehow an ultra informed objective decision maker beyond reproach is for people beyond gullible.

Exactly.

I am beyond sick and tired and the self-fulfilling prophecy that Chicago is worse than the burbs, and people that are smart enough or make enough money to leave do so (or worse, that they *should* do so).

Given the never-ending rush of bored suburbanites into the City, I'd say it's indisputable we have what they want, not the other way around.

Are there concentration camps in Chicago I'm not aware of? Last I checked even municipal employees could live anywhere in the City limits they wanted to.

The point is, they don't need your approval. People who live in parts of the City that you don't like aren't idiots or uninformed just because you don't like their neighborhood.

Some of us - unsurprisingly, those who tend to be here for the long haul - are actually concerned about giving people interested in the City fair and objective information.

It is you who chooses to take these discussions personally, you who chooses to make every subject, every neighborhood, about YOU and about what YOU like.

So when someone is interested in parts of the City that YOU don't like, try asking yourself "hey, is their situation different than mine?" instead of the sweeping and false generalizations you often spew, assuming that it works the other way around.

You are doing Chicago and all of us who work to improve it a massive disservice - take some goddamned pride in your City and step up or shut up.

So I want to make sure I understand you: either I have to toe your line or shut up, yet I'm the one taking this discussion personally. Do I have that right?

I'm just as entitled to share my opinions as you are -- even if you believe your opinions are some sort of objective truth and mine are "false." I will continue to share my opinions regardless of whether or not you approve of them. You can get as angry and blustery and stomp your foot as much as you want. It's no skin off of my nose.

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