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Founded On Fire Magick

Fest300 has just published a lengthy interview with Burning Man Founder Crimson Rose. Are they the new Voices of Burning Man?

The article is very interesting and I encourage you to read it in its entirety at Fest300. I want to highlight in particular the occult and marketing aspects of this. The emphasis is ours:

Every year, hundreds of accomplished fire performers throughout the world wipe sweat from their brows, cross their fingers and submit an audition reel for the experience of a lifetime. If accepted, these “conclaves” are granted exclusive access to the Holy of Holies at the godfather of transformational festivals: the Great Circle at Burning Man. They’ll be among the select few taking part in a ritualized fire dance as a gift to all the fest’s participants, and as tribute to the epic burning of “the Man.”

Out of all the myriad forms of artistic expression found at festivals today, many are grandiose achievements by incredible men. But the hearty warmth, nurturing, and acceptance that pervade these places are divinely feminine. Perhaps the archetype who best captures this quality is Crimson Rose, the fire performance community’s celebrated heroine and a founding board member at Burning Man.

Often hailed as “the godmother of fire arts” (she was the first-ever fire dancer on the playa), Crimson reviews conclave auditions with a panel of legends to select the crème de la crème for the ceremony. Year after year, fire performers strive just to be a part of her continued legacy by pouring their souls into their Burning Man performances so the tradition is passed with grace on to the next generation.

To learn more about this sacred art, we caught up with Crimson Rose, who graciously took some time with us to talk about the origins of fire performance, the history of fire dance at Burning Man and the future of man’s first invention in the festival community.

Before joining the Burning Man community in her current role, Crimson was a fine art model and dancer for 27 years. In the 80s, a good friend passed along the art of fire dancing. Coming from a background in theater and dance she took to it quickly and fostered an intimate relationship with flames.

And when they say “intimate relationship” in this puff piece glowing tribute, they’re not kidding:

“…to me, that was really the journey of magic that I discovered not only within myself, but in fire dance itself.”

In those days, everybody danced but nobody danced with fire. What Burners now enjoy out on the esplanade is an evolution of many ancient dancing-based traditions – which only became more tribal once flames were introduced. “I don’t do poi and I don’t do staff,” she said. “My dancing is really handling torches and a bowl of fire, dipping them into the fire and laying that on my body.”

Sometimes called fleshing, this technique has been passed down through tribal civilizations for generations. It’s sensual and intimate, and sparks a very special rapport with fire, both for the viewer and the performer.

Righty-ho. Nothing too occult about that is there, worshipping fire so intimately that you want it laying on your body, “sensually”. Perfectly normal behavior, everyone does it, Marge Simpson‘ll be into next.

When we asked about her first-ever dance, she said, “I discovered things about myself because I felt like the fire was a sort of essence of all life. Although, it really is more a phenomena in some sense because there’s a magic to it…That magic, for a lot of fire performers, is the hottest part of the flame…“It was also as if the fire was sort of leading me on its own journey. Sort of provoking me to bring it to life.””

In this photo by Darren Keith, note the Devil Horns on all the keepers of the sacred flame, who stride like giants above us in their Procession to The Man

Without question, this person believes that this is a magick ritual she is performing, in the much larger magick ritual of Burning Man. She was recruited into the Organization Project in 1990 – 7 years before Harry Potter came out – specifically to perform this magickal role.

The Man looked a little different back in the early days

We asked how she got involved with this desert social experiment in the first place. She thought for a bit, and took us back to a time before that first dance, to an email and a phone call with the man often accredited with launching Burning Man, Larry Harveyhimself. “In 1990, I had a conversation with Larry Harvey and he talked about a thing they were doing. He had sent me a video of what they did the year before. It was really dark. It was a lot of fire and I couldn’t figure out what the hell they were doing.”

…she said to herself sarcastically. “I’m gonna be really cool because I don’t know what the hell these people are doing. They started pulling and a man raised up, and something clicked in me.” Crimson explained. “I didn’t know what it was. But I knew that I had to go to the desert.” Footage from the prior year continued to beckon her to visit. Seeing a man in the film breath the fire that ignited the effigy was enough to inspire the trip.

“I always felt like I was sort of a freak. You know, that I never fit in. Not with my family. Not with the school. And all of a sudden I felt like I was among my family in the desert.”

Yep, that’s the marketing pitch. Play to the social element, give the reason why all the freaks should buy tickets to this transformational festival. They don’t have to look beautiful and glamorous and cool like the people at other festivals. But maybe once they spend $400 and brainwash themselves at the self-service cult, they will walk away feeling Burnier-Than-Those People.

Back to the occult bits:

At the center of her magnetic attraction this new subculture was this effigy, over which Crimson grew protective. In one of her first encounters with it, “one of the very first things I did is I had these 16-foot-wide silk wings that I wore as I climbed the Man.” People were astonished to look up and see what looked like a fairy climbing to the top of the figure’s shoulder. “I felt like that at that point, I was the protector for the Man. If the man was going to be released we had to do it in the best way that we could, so that year I got a chance to actually help set him on fire.” For the first time, the magic of dance kicked off the legendary ceremony.

Dance, magic dance.

We must all worship the fire. Like Druids.

Despite an urge to push the envelope every year, rules now exist with a sort of informal reverence for the Great Circle. The fire is hallowed and respected

…Fire dancing at Burning Man spawned greater mysticism and creative energy, along with an appreciation for the accompanying rituals and traditions from which fire dancing came.

The flame that Burns the man is lit in a magickal cauldron named El Diabla. Image: Dust to Ashes/Flickr

Image: Blip.TV documentary on Helco

“Spawning greater mysticism” is presented here as a positive. Is this black magick, or white magick? It happens at night in a pentagram with people wearing devil horns and a fire lit from a cauldron named El Diabla; the corporation they started around it chose to launch with Helco parties where they got a lawyer to draw up contracts for people to sell their souls to the Devil. It seems pretty obvious to me which side we’re talking about, but your mileage may vary.

The suggestion that Crimson Rose invented incorporating fire dancing in sacred rituals at Burning Man in 1991 is ridiculous, as anyone who has been to a South Pacific island could tell you.

Back to the sales pitch:

One of the great joys of Burning Man is that it provides a space for us to go and learn about one another and ourselves through such rituals. Those who travel to the playa often report feeling more distant from what is familiar. Many, like Crimson Rose, find deeper connection. This will be her 24th Burn on the playa, and she told me, “Every time I go I feel I’m coming back to a place I’ve always been. You know, it sort of reminds me of home.” [Source: Fest300]

Image: Geek Times

Even in the sales pitch there are quite strong occult and psychological elements.

I’m not sure how things could be made more clear to you, people. This is one of the Founders of Burning Man laying out for you specifically what goes on, what she was recruited into the organization to add to their Project.

An occult black magick ritual ceremony of fire dance. It’s more than just a rave in the desert…

We have published quite a few articles on the spiritual and occult side of Burning Man in the past. We have a lot of new readers now who probably have never seen some of our earlier work, I would encourage you to check these out: and think for yourself.

This was an interesting article. I don’t know much about magick, white or black, or to what extent it plays a role at BM. I will say that I definitely picked up on negative energy there (then at the event, and now reading about others experiences and state of affairs). Also, there were some very serious people at the burn – choking amounts of incense and people throwing in whole trees. What I got out of the whole experience is the desert was better and outshone all of the pomp and circumstance of the event. Silly humans.

Thanks for this. I think critics of this post are overlooking 1) how obvious the occult symbolism is and 2) how important it is that they symbolism isn’t just “one part of the event” but something intentionally cultivated and preserved by the organization that runs the event. I was in the front row for the burn last year and the heaviness of the ritual really scared the shit out of me, and has had me looking for more information ever since.

What’s your main point with this post? Are you saying there are deliberate Satanic underpinnings of Burning Man? That Crimson was “recruited” specifically to help establish and enact Satanic rituals, and that her fire dancing is a deliberate part of that? And, that Crimson is claiming to have invented fire dancing (and not just to have been the first one to bring it to Burning Man)?

From what I can tell, those are your main points. I have to say, I disagree with all of them and don’t find support anywhere in that article for them. But I’ll wait to rebut until you confirm that I’m correct in my interpretation of your post.

Okay. I read it. Have zero idea of how it relates. It says there are some people who have nothing to do with Burning Man who think it has something to do with Satanism. I think we knew that, but what does that have to do with this article where you appear to be stating that the founders were indeed Satanists and Crimson Rose is their willing pawn or a Satanist herself. (You didn’t think we’d read it did you?) I could give you a link or two to articles in theChristian media that are much more explicit about calling BM a tool of Satan. Are you basing you accusations on a few vague rumors by people not associated with BM and who have never been? Why don’t you just answer JVs questions and clear up what you are trying to say.

I think the post underlines how vague concepts of spirituality (enlightenment/transformation) and repetition of ritual (the Man burns on Saturday night or else! Fire-dancers – everyone stop and look!) and all the other “sacred” bullshit has replaced spontaneity and silliness and fun which were the core of the event during the time when Crimson Rose was figuring out how to put fire on herself without dying.

A lot has changed, and it has evolved into a form of stasis – especially through repetition of ritual . And the people who are most responsible for this, like Crimson, hang on to this stasis they’ve achieved like a pitbull hangs on to tree branch and won’t let go until you shove a finger up its ass (which is a life-hack BTW, if a pitbull ever does lock onto you).

This may be my favorite comment ever. This trend can clearly be seen by charting the ‘magical sea creature art cars’-to-‘penis art cars’ ratio over the years. And yes… I do have a real fascination with penis art cars.. suppose I should just build one.

This blog exists to comment on what is being said about Burner culture on the Internet.
In this case, it’s a Fest300 in depth interview with a Burning Man founder.
I’m choosing to use it as an example to further highlight the magic elements of Burning Man, and how fundamental they are to its Founding. Some think I’m making up a conspiracy theory to say that these occult elements are there. The words are there for anyone to judge for themselves , and there are plenty of them

Dude, I think maybe you have a very rational and logical mind, and maybe take some things too literally. Something like Helco, for instance. That was a satirical take on multi-national corporations to illustrate how John Law and his cohorts thought Larry and Co. were making Burning Man too corporate. I’m fairly certain it was not a vehicle for the artists involved to announce their Satanic beliefs. Artists do things for effect. I made a bunch of show flyers for a band I was in once that said “Conjure up Satan with Liquid Courage” (Liquid Courage was the band name), and then listed a bunch of silly Satanic things we had planned for the show. It was a joke. Because Satan and genuine Satanists are inherently hilarious. Because the way metal bands have used Satanic imagery in the past is hilarious. Because the “Satanic panic” of the 80s was hilarious. Because the people accusing Judas Priest of implanting Satanic messages in their recordings were hilarious. Etc.

Another aspect of this post, that’s Crimson was on a PR junket of something, doesn’t ring true for me either. To me, and I think most rational humans, this statement of hers:

“I always felt like I was sort of a freak. You know, that I never fit in. Not with my family. Not with the school. And all of a sudden I felt like I was among my family in the desert.”

is not some dog-whistle marketing pitch, it’s her stating how she felt when first attending Burning Man. Hey, it’s how I felt too. For you to think she’s calling out for converts or something seems highly paranoid.

So I’m a Buddhist. I would call Burning Man the largest Buddhist gathering in the world, just because, apparently I can have whatever criteria I want, and that’s what I’m saying. I have certainly run into Buddhist camps at Burning man, as well as camps centered on other beliefs, including Christianity. I once read an article about a Christian Art installation at Burning Man that many (Christian or not) found extremely moving.

Most of the symbolism you have identified here is Pagan, which is not Satanism. Over the centuries Pagan have been persecuted for being Satanists because they are a religion that honors the female and we can’t have that. So throughout history, if a woman becomes “uppity” we accuse her of serving the devil and burn her at the stake, as you are symbolically trying to do with Crimson Rose here.
I have no doubt that there are Satanists at Burning Man. For the most part modern Satanism is simply a hedonism cult, which would make sense at Burning Man. To those people the man burn may indeed qualify as a Satanist ritual. As a Buddhist I look on it as I would the destruction of a beautiful sand painting. Something beautiful and complex is created with a lot of effort, only to be destroyed as a symbol of impermanence.

When I’ve investigated what the man burn is supposed to be the response I always get from burners is, “it means what it means to you”. I think that is obviously true of all of Burning Man. It’s about the intention you bring to it and the lessons you take away. It doesn’t matter what someone else thinks it is.

If you read my comment you will note I said there probably were santanists at Burning Man, just as there are probably a number of Jains. What you did was accuse someone of being a satanist who did not self-identify as such.

“It was really dark. It was a lot of fire and I couldn’t figure out what the hell they were doing.” Duh…the video was really dark and she couldn’t make out what they were doing, NOT it was dark in tone.

Where does she identify anything she does as black magick? That is your characterization. She doesn’t even identify anything she is doing as Pagan. She simply said she feels “magic” in the fire, as do many fire dancers. It isn’t a spiritual comment at all (other than in the abstract).

You brought up the symbolism and I just pointed out the symbology is just as likely Pagan as it is Satanic. Santanists created the confusion when they used pagan symbols in there ceremonies, but Pagans and satanists have nothing to do with each other. Pagans believe in magick, but typically earth magick designed to harmonize natural elements. They believed in using the power of herbs for healing, as opposed to doing things like bleeding people, and for that they were persecuted, because they were women daring to exercise personal power.

I did not get from that article that Crimson or Burning Man were claiming to have invented fire dancing, only that Crimson was the one who first brought it to Burning Man, and that that aspect remains a core part of the event’s aesthetic and narrative drive. I do agree that the writer was a little breathless and over reverential.

It’s about intention. If you go for a Satanist gathering, you will find it. If you go for Samadhi, you will find it. If you go for Jesus Christ, he’s there. Intention, intention, intention. (I said it three times! I must be a Satanist according to OP.)

So now it doesn’t matter if people think BM is a rave. Another day, another argument from another position. It’s getting a little old.
If you want to claim BM as the world’s largest Buddhist festival, you are saying that about 60% of Burners are Buddhists – the same number you believe are ravers.

“Something beautiful and complex is created with a lot of effort, only to be destroyed as a symbol of impermanence.”

That’s the main takeaway I get from Burning Man as a whole, and my first time on the playa, it was a very powerful experience, something that has lingered with me and informed my choices since. I’m inclined to this kind of thinking anyway and had come to the liberating realization of my (and everyone’s) insignificance and impermanence many years prior to my first burn, but to see that play out on a grand scale right in front of me was powerful.

I agree that most of the occult stuff going on with Burning Man is vaguely pagan, with maybe a little animism thrown in there. I don’t think any of it was all that intentional.

I’m not a huge fan of the fire spinners, but Crimson has been doing this since very early on at Burning Man, and fire play really is at the core of the Burning Man aesthetic, and she played a big part in establishing that. I stumbled across her lighting of the torch, or whatever it’s called, one year. It was pretty cool. She lights it via a magnifying glass, dances around a bit, then there’s a little processional to the Man, and it’s from that torch that they light the Man. It’s a nice ceremony and provides some narrative drive to the event. Without that overarching narrative, the event would be less focused and meaningful, I think.

Is Crimson arrogant? Probably. Who cares? My biggest problem here is the increasingly prominent role that goddamn Fest300, and Chip Conley, are playing. The guy’s current business is to categorize and monetize festival attendance, the very anathema (or should be) of Burning Man. The occult angle is fun, I like that swirl of magick and spirituality on the playa. Of course, the way you portray there here is as some kind of conspiracy, but then again, this is burners.me.

I think this sums up a lot for me “…An occult black magick ritual ceremony of fire dance. It’s more than just a rave in the desert…”

I didn’t really follow Burners.me until the Dancetronauts debacle. I took an interest because I couldn’t believe the amount of pixels being slaughtered over a sound car being banned for scalping early entry passes and being too loud.. One less EDM sound car impacts my burn as much as one less dust storm. So, it was more out of fascination (the horrible injustice of a sound car being banned, juxtaposed against South Carolina) that I got sucked in.

When I read that last sentences for this post, I realized that Burners.me or whoever posted the interview, thinks Burning Man is a rave or should be a rave and that’s why the tooth and nail fight to retain a sound car that graces us with the #9 ranked DJ. Just ask Forbes…

So, I could care less what Crimson thinks about Burning Man. I’ve never placed any importance on seniority; when people qualify their opinions with how many burns they’ve been to or how long they’ve been going, my eyes glaze over, as if that means they’re more authoritative. So, the fact that she’s a founder means dick. It’s just her opinion.

I really liked the response to one of the Dancetronauts posts, I forget which volume it was, but it was from a Ranger and his point was that Burning Man is different things to different people. That’s where I’ll always come from, that BM is different things to different people. That’s what I love about it. So as long as Burners.me fights to make it EDC or a rave, I’ll fight back. Raves, sound cars and occult fire dancers all have a place at the table and belong on the Playa, as long as they respect the rights of others and accept that their experience isn’t any more valuable or important than someone who wants nothing to do with it.

Crimson’s opinion isnt a threat to me, the notion that Burning Man should be another EDC or a singular experience is.

After reading the article, I didn’t get the feeling at all the Crimson was dictating how Burning Man should be for anyone other than herself. She got in early and participated and continues to do so, so her influence on the event is more than your average burner, but at least from this article, it seems to me she’s merely stating what Burning Man means to her.

There is no measure by which Burning Man is the biggest rave in the world. First off it is not a rave, it is an arts happening where a lot of folks dance to EDM in various corners of the event. Burning Man, total attendance 70K. I would say 60% of the folks dance at some point in the week to EDM, but many of those never listen to EDM anywhere else. CREAMFOLDS Attendance 80K, ULTRA Attendance 330K, EDC Attendance 300K, TOMORROWLAND Attendance 180K. If you Google “World Biggest Raves” none of the lists that come up include Burning Man.

There are 3 key measures. Area: 1000 acres. NuMber of music stages: 500+ number of DJs: 1000+ another measure that is relevant to ravers is amount of glowy shit – burning man wins on this count also. So that is 4 measures for you.

Well there’s probably like 5000 people who bring their guitar with them and play it in their camp….Hey everybody…Burning Man is the largest folk music festival in the world…woo…hoo. Google it sir. No one but you thinks Burning man is the largest Rave in the world.

I think you are trying to force the definition on Burning Man. I don’t think most burners want to be advertised as the largest Rave in the world, because then more folks who are only interested in that will show up. There is a lot of EDM at Burning man, but it isn’t about that and if that is the reason you go, you are going to miss what it is.

“The Olympics is the biggest sporting event in the world, because it incorporates the most sports. QED”

The Olympics is the biggest sporting event in the world because it has the largest number of athletes and spectators. I’ll give you the bit about number of DJs at Burning Man if you’ll drop the bit about acreage and glowy shit. Even by this expanded criteria, Burning Man is only the biggest in the sense that there are more (mostly self-described) DJs there than probably any other event. There are still less people total than many other “raves.” And also, Burning Man isn’t (yet) a rave.

So it’s also the world’s biggest art festival? Miami Ar Basel is one that is much larger, in attendees, art pieces and (sigh) acreage. I’m sure there are others. As for largest self service cult, well Scientology has more than 70,000 members. Of course, most burners would not be rationally classified as brainwashed, but I suppose YMMV.

It’s spread all throughout Miami, so it covers a lot of ground. But this is getting silly. I like the idea of a “what is Burning Man?” post, because it is an art festival and a spiritual gathering and yeah, a rave, as well as a hundred other things all at once. Which of course, is why it’s so fucking great and unique.

Of the 3 links you posted , and the criteria you are suggesting , burning man is the #5 biggest rave in the world according to both of your first 2. The fest300 links has no population numbers or indeed any kind of data at all, so it hardly supports your case. As I said , you are just posting irrelevant links to waste everybody’s time.

You don’t get to make up your own criteria. I believe the most attractive person in the world is 53, a bit over weight, with glasses. Oh my, I’m the most attractive man in the world. The journalists who write about EDM do not consider Burning Man to be one of the largest raves in the world. If you want to substitute your personal criteria for that distinction…I guess you have the right to be a majority of one if you want.

Watch me – I just did.
My statement (BM is the worlds largest rave) is correct for any of the 4 criteria I supplied; based on your own criteria , it’s still the 5th biggest rave in the world. Clearly, burning man is one of the biggest raves there is, anyway you measure it. Which proves my original point.
It’s also one of the biggest Satanic rituals. Very probably THE biggest. Which is the point of the OP here.

Pooh, are you not aware of the Four Criteria for determining the size of a rave? For it is written, they are, thusly: number of stages, number of DJs, proliferation of blinky lights, and ACREAGE. Burning Man has a lock on those, to be sure, as long as you count people like me, who plugs in my smartphone to our camp’s PA system for some tunes, as a DJ, and the fold out table where the amp is as a stage. BE FOREWARNED! You are not to count number of attendees, for that is the number we must not count.

So you’ve gone from biggest rave in the word to the 5th biggest rave in the world…progress. That is of course if everyone who went to Burning Man was a Raver, which they are not. What percentage of burners do you think only listen to EDM on playa?

I haven’t gone anywhere. You have moved closer to my position with the criteria you chose. And now you are suggesting the reductionist view of “burning man is only an EDM festival”, which is something I’ve never said.

Ok, I disagree with you about it being a rave, but let’s say that it’s a rave. I would guess then, that the Orgy Dome would make Burning Man the world’s largest orgy. The number of nudists might make Burning Man the worlds largest clothing optional city… Where does it stop? What label do we slap on Burning Man so we can fight over it.
You push a heavy EDM agenda, good for you. I like EDM. I also like hip-hop, reggae, jazz, indie rock, house music… But I resent EDM because it’s the only thing that’s brought to the playa that is forced upon every citizen of BRC without their consent. The sound camps at 10 and 2 aren’t the issue. The sound cars and camps within the city are the problem. We (people that come to Burning Man for experiences other than EDM) can’t get a reprieve. We have to move or we’re constantly asking sound cars/camps to please be restful of others. It’s so much more work on our part than it is on the ravers…
So, you asked what Burning Man is to me. It’s a community of 60,000 people that gather in the desert to live, for a week by a set of principles that they try to adhere to for the rest of the year.
That effort to live by those principles is what makes someone a Burner. Going to Burning Man doesn’t make you a Burner. Doing whatever you want for week doesn’t make you a Burner. Cranking your music so everyone has to listen to it, even if someone else just feels like having a conversation with the person next to them doesn’t make you a Burner…

Thanks for the reply. I’m not pushing any EDM agenda . I love electronic music and burning man has had some of the best I’ve heard . For free, no vip, no wristbands required. Ravers all get blamed for a few small incidents , instead of credited for tens of thousands of non-incidents.

Ravers don’t get blamed anymore than anyone else, but the sound cars rightfully do. As far as getting credit for non-incidents, I made my point on the Dancetronauts fiasco… You get zero credit or praise for acting like you should. Sorry, but no kudos for performing at the minimum standard. It’s not AYSO, where everyone gets a trophy…

burnersxxx, I think you and i must come from different generations and will not agree on this subject. I don’t think people should be praised or receive attention for doing their job, for being civil, for not being a dick… To me, that’s not noteworthy. When I was working, I never praised my guys for showing up to work on time. I never gave them recognition for coming to work and doing their job. That’s sort of what they (and I) got paid for. It was sort of expected and assumed.
So, when someone at Burning Man doesn’t cause a problem, I’m not going to pat them on the back and tell them how remarkable they are. I’m not going to seek out some guy with a pacifier, puffy gloves and spinning his lights and say, “Thank you little raver for not causing any problems. Thank you so much! Good boy!”
So when you say things like: “…instead of getting credit for tens of thousands of non-incidents.” I’m going to call BS. That fact that you think not being a dick or not causing problems is perfection and I think it’s just common decency, what’s expected of adults; shows how far apart we are on the subject.

Just goes to show that Burning Man is ONLY what the founders believe in. SUCH IMPORTANCE SURROUNDED BY EGO, that fire dancing and conclave is what Burning Man is. Meanwhile 60,000+ don’t even know what their looking at while waiting for the Man to Burn. Sounds like Crimson Rose feels everyone is there to watch her fire spinning, lol.

It’s amazing, Crimson Rose invented fire dancing. She’s a real goddess, perhaps the first goddess. So spiritual. I wonder if the people who saw her first dance with fire realized they were having a religious experience. I wonder if she ever shoved fire up her anus to find her head.

P.S. Can we please ditch the fire conclave. I’d rather see a giant penis car circling the man (well over 5mph) playing a mashup of porn noises, dying animals, and death metal through an illegally loud sound system… then in the final moment it will squirt the man with a firegasm to start the big show

When I read the article, all i could think was how it was more arrogant than Crimson herself. After many interactions with her, I came to the conclusion Crimson is the most arrogant person I’ve met in relation to Burning Man, so it’s a great achievement by the Fest300 writer to type an article more arrogant than Crimson