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I'll just pretend I didn't see those comments about women... (for f's sake, people, seriously?)

>Trajan
Going by what we were shown on screen I hope you didn't believe that the akki was actually covered in scribble-like black miasma at first that miraculously disappeared later... :P

(I still don't get why the director decided to do it that way instead of just not showing the akki. Saki doesn't get a clear look at the kid anyway until she's back in the village with Niimi, so what was the point? The only part where she had a chance to see the akki was in the boat, and it could've been less weirdly distracting if they just showed a shadowy figure wearing a hood.)

And I don't quite understand why it's so weird that Satoru & Saki didn't question Squealer back in Tokyo. They were physically and mentally exhausted, definitely not in the mood or the right state of mind to deal with that sort of thing right then. Besides, Squealer having done all that he did, they probably felt they should just take him home and leave him to the village leaders. Well, I guess if Squealer had resisted hard enough Satoru would've eventually killed him on impulse, but he didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

The way Saki put the question, as if to an inbecile or confused person, makes me think he was pretty catatonic all the way back to the village, and when they talked to him, he was just recovering from the shock. He wouldn't have resisted at all, and just done - as if on autopilot - whatever they told him. At least, that's how I imagined it.

Yep, that was pretty much the case. But as for Saki introducing herself and Satoru, that made sense. The last time she saw Squealer was only a few weeks ago, sure, but the last time they actually met was when she and Satoru were 14. It's not unreasonable to expect that Squealer may not remember them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raghar

Well he did. That was his mistake.

Not really - there were more of them than Saki's group expected. But even if he had brought more soldiers it wouldn't have changed much. After all, the kid was the only one Satoru and Saki couldn't kill.

1. Not making it a top priority that Kiroumaru was killed. Kiroumaru was always a threat, as the akki can't directly attack Queerats anyway.

2. Instead of sending the akki into that cave, Squealer should have just ordered her to create a cave-in, making it clear to her that the only people inside were humans (it's a lie, but she doesn't have to know that). Decent chance the cave-in kills Saki, Satoru, and Kiroumaru. Even if it doesn't kill them, it almost certainly destroys the Psychobuster. With the Psychobuster destroyed, just high-tail it out of there, post-haste.

3. He should have carried a quick-kill poison in a container in a pocket on his clothes, just in case of complete failure. In the event of complete failure, swallow immediately. You don't get taken alive, and put through a degrading show-trial that makes a mockery of you and what you were fighting for. Most importantly, Squealer saves himself a world of pain...

That being said, all of these mistakes are understandable. They rely significantly on the benefit of hindsight.

That being said, all of these mistakes are understandable. They rely significantly on the benefit of hindsight.

About the #3 point I don't think it was a mistake. As I already pointed out, it felt more like he deliberately surrendered to Saki's. A way to prove that he is honorable, in his own way. And a way to show that he is not a coward at all. And in retrospect a way to give humans his last words, because he truly believed in his ideals, beyond his life, beyond whatever humans would have done to him, despite all the gruesome things he did. Because he knew he was doing gruesome things.
I felt that it was a really important point for his character building/full shaping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think there's a part of Saki that doesn't view Squealer as the vile Enemy General that killed countless humans, but rather as this interesting creature that she shared interesting conversations and interesting adventures with. And she's sad that's yet another interesting part of her past that's forever gone.

That part of the last episode really surprised me in the way it was portrayed on Saki's part. It felt like Squealer really was an old close friend of her, instead of her arch-enemy. Feeling that fits with your quote, but honestly less with the massacre Squealer did.
Somehow, and even after having read the really logical and well argued points of Trajan, I agree with someone (sorry I don't remember who) who wrote about how the author ultimately sided a bit with the monster rats after all.

And about that I don't know if we should let aside how the narrative structure of this story is. It really reminded me of "Sentinel" a short story written by Frederic Brown. In the story the author used the reversal of expectation plot device to surprise the reader.
And that was what the author of this story did too, with a different intent. He basically built a human world and told a story from the perspective of this humans whom we have been pushed to identify with. Because they are humans, because they are children, they are children in a killing-children-grow-up society. And then he introduced even an antagonist made us thinking that he was a real bloody villain. And he really was, bloody.
And then slowly he started to crumble inch by inch these points about the human world. Killing off the characters you could relate more with. And made the others growing-up and less doing things less clear. And at the same time leaving here and there pieces of the queerat society, always, more or less, mixing bad actions with good ideals. Squealer speech about democracy was put into a context in which we viewers hardly could buy it. Later on, with the solider rat in the tunnel it happened again. From a mouth that was not Squealer's this time, but again inserted into a context that hardly someone would have considered it. Together with Kiromaru, a loyal human's ally, and for that related to humans, but in the end he was a queerat. So all his good points are to be attributed to queerat species, and not human.
The narrative reached its top point with this last episode in which each little peace I spoke about Squealer ideals came together with all his actions (surrendering) and words: in the jail and, the most obvious, at the trial. In which he claimed being human(s) and took his name back. Opposed to the human society who did and acted as we knew.
Looking from this perspective it seems like the author built the story to reach this point and "slap" the viewer saying, ok even queerats are humans**, so now?

** Neither PK nor queerats are humans in the end. Or both, as you prefer.

__________________

The meaning of things lies not in the things hemselves, but in our attitude towards them.

It's interesting how you can mirror what happened with US and the Middle east in the past 10 years to this story.

Also think of it this way, if tomorrow North Korea managed to nuke US in several places, killing thousands, would you guys actually be cheering for NK because they are the oppressed? This may be a terrible analogy considering the situations are different, but personally I just cannot stand people who disturbs peace with genocide.

Therefore, based on what I saw on-screen, I do think Saki's plan was silly, had a low probability of success, and that she ignored better options. Of course, it worked out for her in the end, so I can't really argue with the outcome. She was right, but for the wrong reasons.

Just wanted to say that you are not alone in this opinion. They had no problem taking out most of the Fiend's guards using mirrors and Cantus, so a direct attack would've likely been more effective, rather than relying on death feedback. Of course, the sad thing is that Saki, subconsciously or not, regards Kiroumaru as expendable. Hence she took the option that had the least risk for her and Satoru but was guaranteed to result in Kiroumaru's death.

I honestly was cheering for the antagonists most of the time. The kind of society that the humans have built here, relying on subjugation of "lesser races" and mind control, and using Cantus to commit murder almost dismissively, can burn to ashes for all I care. I'd have been happy to see Squealer wipe them all out. I'm not sure whether it's a problem of "lost in adaptation" or not, but IMHO Yusuke Kishi did not go quite far enough to show how disgusting, deplorable, and degenerate the human society has become.

Still, this anime managed to be more disturbing and thought-provoking than most anime out there, so from a critical perspective it was a big success IMHO.

It's okay to kill something as long as you don't consider it your own kind. Although Yakomaru got what he deserved, it came at a huge price, with the humans contuining their own masscre of Queerats and the oh so depressing reveal of the nature of the two races. Will people ever be able to get around without having to consider others an enemy? I don't know, but at least Saki learned something about what rules of a society were meant for.

__________________

The greatest lie is to convince people that the world is a dangerous place and a zero sum game where you are never safe. Distrust others and fight them for scraps, while the real enemy that spreads this lie takes the whole pie.Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)MyAnimeList || Reviews

Just wanted to say that you are not alone in this opinion. They had no problem taking out most of the Fiend's guards using mirrors and Cantus, so a direct attack would've likely been more effective, rather than relying on death feedback.

I kind of love how people always forget that Saki and Satoru are physically incapable of harming the kid using their power... And relying on the death mechanism is actually the best idea, simply because if the kid is not an akki then he'll die with a 100% certainity. A direct attack may or may not work, but there's no getting around inbuilt biological functions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightbringer

The kind of society that the humans have built here, relying on subjugation of "lesser races" and mind control, and using Cantus to commit murder almost dismissively, can burn to ashes for all I care.

But of course the kind of society that is built on genocide and slavery is perfectly fine... (Really, is it so difficult to see that both sides are pretty damn horrible? Or the point of the whole talk about "change" in the end?)

I kind of love how people always forget that Saki and Satoru are physically incapable of harming the kid using their power... And relying on the death mechanism is actually the best idea, simply because if the kid is not an akki then he'll die with a 100% certainity. A direct attack may or may not work, but there's no getting around inbuilt biological functions.

Saki and Satoru kill the rats, Kiromaru goes up and kills the "fiend" who is unable to fight back. Still there is a chance he might just run away.

Ultimately the plan of relying on death feedback had more variables to go wrong then just a direct attack with Kiromaru. What if the "Fiend" blew Kiromaru into unrecognizable chunks or set him ablaze, Kiromaru wouldn't be able to reveal he was a rat. With the direct attack method, Saki and Satoru only had to kill the other rats and keep them off of Kiromaru long enough for him to end the "Fiends" life.

And of course the rats are going to stand there, waving and yelling "please kill us! and our human WMD too!"

There wasn't that many rats, Saki and Satoru could of killed hundreds of the damn things while Kiromaru rushes in and kill the bastard.

It was gamble either way but at least it relied Saki and Satoru's ability rather then the off chance the "fiend" wouldn't completely destroy Kiromaru and he would have enough time to reveal he was a rat.

There wasn't that many rats, Saki and Satoru could of killed hundreds of the damn things while Kiromaru rushes in and kill the bastard.

And of course the rats would just let themselves be mowed down while ignoring Kiroumaru rushing in and killing the kid...

Seriously, think it over. Kiroumaru as a rat has no chance against the other rats (since they have firepower). If the enemy rats saw Kiroumaru running at the kid they would've killed him and be done with it, hell, Squealer himself would've done it from whatever safe place he's hiding at. But Saki also knew that at the first sign of attack by humans Squealer would send out the kid and sic her on them. Hence the idea to disguise Kiroumaru as Satoru.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiammes

It was gamble either way but at least it relied Saki and Satoru's ability rather then the off chance the "fiend" wouldn't completely destroy Kiromaru and he would have enough time to reveal he was a rat.

There never was a chance of the kid vaporizing Kiroumaru so nothing remains of him... And the plan did, in fact, rely on Saki and Satoru's abilities very much. (Or rather, Satoru's.) Satoru made the mirror. He stopped the wind then changed its direction to disguise Kiroumaru's scent. Saki killed the guards to lure the kid out.

Also, people seem to forget that Kiroumaru said okay. If he thought the plan was stupid he would've said so - he spoke pretty frankly to Saki & Satoru earlier. If he had had a better idea he would've said so. As it is, though, he thought the idea was fine.

And of course the rats would just let themselves be mowed down while ignoring Kiroumaru rushing in and killing the kid...

Your implying they would have a choice in the matter, Saki and Satoru can kill rats by the shit ton. At the very least they can stop any projectiles from touching Kiromaru. Yo

Quote:

Seriously, think it over. Kiroumaru as a rat has no chance against the other rats (since they have firepower). If the enemy rats saw Kiroumaru running at the kid they would've killed him and be done with it, hell, Squealer himself would've done it from whatever safe place he's hiding at. But Saki also knew that at the first sign of attack by humans Squealer would send out the kid and sic her on them. Hence the idea to disguise Kiroumaru as Satoru.

They were fucking attacking the rats when Kiromaru ran out in the first place, Saki and Satoru where right behind him. Any opposition from the rats would be swiftly dealt with.

Quote:

There never was a chance of the kid vaporizing Kiroumaru so nothing remains of him... And the plan did, in fact, rely on Saki and Satoru's abilities very much. (Or rather, Satoru's.) Satoru made the mirror. He stopped the wind then changed its direction to disguise Kiroumaru's scent. Saki killed the guards to lure the kid out.

Are you serious? We seen the "fiend" vaporize thousands of villagers, why wouldn't it be a safe assumption to assume that would be a method it would use? The attack would have left Kiromaru unrecognizable and thus no death feedback, Saki and Satoru die a brutal death.

Quote:

Also, people seem to forget that Kiroumaru said okay. If he thought the plan was stupid he would've said so - he spoke pretty frankly to Saki & Satoru earlier. If he had had a better idea he would've said so. As it is, though, he thought the idea was fine.

Not going to fly, you are assuming he could think of a better plan, the other option was never brought up so they never had to choose between them. In retrospect it was the riskier plan because more things could have gone wrong.

Squeler wanted to create an "army of messiahs", which would involve conditioning even more infants. His idea was way worse than what the humans did. Also he sacrificed a lot of his people for this goal. I also think he intended to wipe out all human adults because their power could be "too dangerous" later on.

Still that punishment he got was really the worst kind of punishment that I could imagine... I personally don't think he deserved it and I think Saki should have "freed him from his pain" much earlier than she actually did.

Also I think there was some kind of mistake in this last episode somewhere near the end.
Satoru said something about Homo Sapiens and then about "Homo" being the opposite to "Hetero".
Technically that is not wrong, but the "Homo" in "Homo Sapiens" is the LATIN word for "human", while the "Homo" that is the opposite of "Hetero" is infact the GREEK word for "same" or "equal".

Your implying they would have a choice in the matter, Saki and Satoru can kill rats by the shit ton. At the very least they can stop any projectiles from touching Kiromaru. Yo

They can't stop bullets using a mirror (it's unlikely they can stop bullets anyway unless they actually see them). And if they go out the kid kills them and that's it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiammes

They were fucking attacking the rats when Kiromaru ran out in the first place, Saki and Satoru where right behind him. Any opposition from the rats would be swiftly dealt with.

And what guarantees the kid won't just run away? Also, Squealer wasn't among the guards, what guarantees he's not watching from afar and doesn't have a gun to shoot Kiroumaru with? Or that he doesn't shout at the kid to run away or something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiammes

Are you serious? We seen the "fiend" vaporize thousands of villagers

*sigh* 1) That wasn't "thousands" by far (we saw what, two or three? and in actuality it was probably a dozen at most); 2) we also saw her covered in black scribbles I trust you took that literally as well? For the nth time, nobody was supposed to be vaporized, that was just the animation cutting corners.

Look, you don't have to like what happened, but you not liking it doesn't automatically mean it was stupid and made no sense. End of story, there's no point in arguing about this further.

Your implying they would have a choice in the matter, Saki and Satoru can kill rats by the shit ton. At the very least they can stop any projectiles from touching Kiromaru. Yo

They were fucking attacking the rats when Kiromaru ran out in the first place, Saki and Satoru where right behind him. Any opposition from the rats would be swiftly dealt with.

*shrug* SSY is a fun ride and emotionally appealing. I would just try not to think too much about these sort of convenient ocurrences & enjoy the high points. It's not like other anime don't do things that are convenient for the plot in much more glaring ways! At least they did not vastly change power levels after a character shows more "resolve"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiammes

Are you serious? We seen the "fiend" vaporize thousands of villagers, why wouldn't it be a safe assumption to assume that would be a method it would use? The attack would have left Kiromaru unrecognizable and thus no death feedback, Saki and Satoru die a brutal death.

Because it wasn't convenient for the plot at that moment. It still wasn't a horrible decision by the "fiend". Dead is dead right? It's not something the "fiend" should have particularly avoided doing.

So it's not a plot hole. More of a plot convenience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

*sigh* 1) That wasn't "thousands" by far (we saw what, two or three? and in actuality it was probably a dozen at most); 2) we also saw her covered in black scribbles I trust you took that literally as well? For the nth time, nobody was supposed to be vaporized, that was just the animation cutting corners.

Look, you don't have to like what happened, but you not liking it doesn't automatically mean it was stupid and made no sense. End of story, there's no point in arguing about this further.

Cutting corners? Nooo, the vaporization was to make the "fiend" SCARY and convince the audience it was really a fiend. And it damn well worked. Those were the best episodes of the show IMO.

Criticism of something that is awesome doesn't mean it is stupid. It just means it is not perfect. Your statement reduces an interesting thought and argument into a needlessly black and white conflict.

There are certainly other ways that the author could have ended the last conflict & some of them certainly had a higher success % (like letting the magical anthrax kill Satorou and the "fiend"). The author obviously chose the "final solution" more for emotional, thematic & character reasons than raw success %.

For example .. the fact that Kiromaru was willing to die to end Squeeler's reign is thematically far far superior to the approach Xiammes outlines. The fact that Xiammes's approach (might) have a better success rate doesn't at all invalidate the superior emotional impact of the path the author chose.

It might, perhaps, underline that some of SSY's plot points were chosen for emotional impact with convenient occurences to make them passably realistic, rather than realism being the primary intent. Yet I don't think that there are really that many plot holes. IMO, the only glaring one is the doctor being able to kill the early fiend with injection. If one overlooks that & doesn't get too bent out of shape at some of the yoyo effects of hyberbolic cliffhangers (THERE"S NO PLAN TO KILL A FIEND ... oh here's the plan!), it's a very striking show that is different & immensely enjoyable.