The issue now that's raised is one in regards to what can really be done to let lots of people know that libertarianism is the best approach to
having a better life as well as future? It sounds good, but when we have such a big government whose best interest is not of the people, what can
really be done?

I recall having a debate on this with a superior officer awhile back.
I asked him why he thought we needed so Many bases in so many places.
His response? "Well to protect our nations interests abroad"
I came back with " The only interests we could possibly have with this heavy of a footprint, is empire and world domination!"
His response? .....Still waiting on it, two years later

I would also like to note that I too disagree that Libertarianism equates anarchy.
Very simply put, in the Libertarian political philosophy, if I cause harm to no one in what I am or am not doing, nor infringe on another's
liberties, nor force my will upon another then I have committed no crime.

If I DO do these things in any way, shape, or form.....THIS is what the government and the judicial branch are for.

You, me and everyone else has the right to Life, Liberty and Property.

Now, you could argue that the right of the government or the collective can and does encroach on these rights.

Does this mean it is right? Does this mean it is correct? Hell, does this mean that the government or the collective can take these rights for the
benefit of the collective?

If you argue that the collective has these rights, you are part of the problem. Explain to me then the difference of a State removing individual
rights of such a thing as LIFE? Is that okay? How about property? Such a thing as a gun? Or let us say something like travel? That is a part of
liberty is it not?

We have to educate the people about what true freedom is. Also, we have to get people off of the government nipple. Maybe by educating the people on
the "house of cards" that is our economy, along with our debt based monetary system, they would then realize that this simply can't last. If we
show the people that the train is almost out of gravy, maybe they will be receptive to what true liberty and freedom actually is. Of course, getting
people to realize this is a whole other cow because the indoctrination is heavy. Unfortunately, I don't think anything short of absolute catastrophe
would bring the American people around. Those elites in power, know exactly what they are doing. I'll explain through the boiling frog story
below:

If you put a bullfrog in a pot of boiling water, he will quickly jump out and you'll lose out on your dinner. But, if you put the bullfrog in a pot
of warm water and then slowly turn up the heat, by the time he realizes the water is too hot, it will be too late.

The American people are the bullfrog and the heat has been slowly turned up on us for decades, though rising even faster within the last 30 or so
years. The sad thing is, when Americans finally realize what's going on, it will be far too late. You see TPTB are extremely smart and they know
exactly what will work and what won't. It'd sad but due to our own fault for being asleep at the wheel, we will not gain our freedom back through
political means. We are just too far gone and the corruption has rotted the whole system. The American experiment has completely failed and until we
get rid of the entire system completely, we aren't gaining our liberties or freedoms back. Just think about it, for instance with the new voting
machines, your vote doesn't even much matter, if they decide it shouldn't. We have fell asleep at the wheel and failed the simple responsibility
handed down to us by our founding fathers and as a result, we have completely lost our country. Just my 2 cents.

Indeed, this could be a great way to make people realize what they do not have.
Instead of trying to describe true freedom and liberty to them; rationalize exactly what IS a slave...thereby letting letting people come to the
realization on their own, that they are indeed, slaves and not free men as was the intent of this experiment that is our country.

Actually, the problem is not that it is fiat, IMO. With gold backed currency or a commodity backed currency, you are basically giving all of the power
to whoever controls that particular market. However, I believe that our major problem is our debt based currency. We have interest on each and every
dollar that is created. Think about that for a minute. How could we ever imagine to get out of debt if we have interest on the money used to pay back
the debt. Basically, debt based currency is a way to manipulate labor. Most folks don't know this but the income tax came about around the same time
as our central bank, the Federal Reserve and the IRS was created to enforce this income tax. Without a large income tax levy, a debt based currency
would never be practical. What happens is that the labor of the American people is essentially used to pay off the interest that's tacked on to the
issuance of our currency. They do this by levying an income tax. Most of the money from income taxes are used to pay off this debt.

Think about it. Why on earth would anyone need a debt based currency? The only thing it does, is enslave those who are beholden to it and benefit
those who issue it, generally the bankers. In fact, it is arguable that one of the main reasons for breaking from the crown in the mid to late 18th
century (1700s) was because of debt based currency from the London Bankers. Then, the London Bankers saw how successful a value-based currency was
going for America and they were afraid that America would set the example for the rest of the world. Many then argue that this is why the War of 1812
kicked off, myself included. Then to add to that, the bankers moved into America and began the long and dirty fight to force a central banking system
on the US, with most of our founding fathers being completely against such a thing, even voicing very strong opinions against the Bank and equaling
the Bank to a complete loss of freedom and absolute slavery. The Bank had succeeded over the years several times but was quickly thrown back out each
and every time. However, in 1913, the international bankers were successful in creating the Federal Reserve Act, which basically signed control over
to these international bankers. Woodrow Wilson, who signed the law, would later express his regret at signing that law, saying something to the affect
that it was when freedom ended in America. Somehow, the greedy international bankers were successful on their last attempt at controlling America and
now they own you.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Cause Libertarianism is just a nice way to say Anarchy.

Which kind of doesn't work in a real world sense.

Cause you are assuming that everybody doesn't want at some point to infringe on people's rights.

The fact is that some people just wanna see the world burn.

Now I am of "Libertarian" values, I support most of the agenda, but a full out Libertarian culture is like a Utopia, nice to think about, impossible
to implement.

~Keeper

Huh? That is not true at all, the point is not to "implement" anything, but repeal big government and useless laws that infringe on you're very
person. The truth is, their IS no good reason not to be a libertarian unless you enjoy the dem/repub game of blindfold, ,manipulate, destroy and
pervert. The lack of a "libertarian culture" is the reason there are body scanners in the airports, cameras going up everywhere and endless wars of
every kind.

But I will tell you, the next thought was of a spoilt King waving his hand sending thirty thousand men to die for the crown. The men would have been
better off taking the king out, then again a new king would emerge and eventually send those mens children off
just the same.

Perception is more valuable than money IMO, life, health, freedom and love are the only trumps in that order.

Asking why we are not all libertarian is rather ignorant, would you say not? That is the equivalent of asking why we are not all communitarians who
believe in and stress the importance of a shared common goal amongst all people in a community.

I am sure you have good reasons for believing in libertarianism, just as all people with good intentions have the right and dignity to believe in
whatever political theory they so choose. I am, have been, and presumably will remain a Social Democrat. I could ask why we are not all Social
Democrats, but I would not do that because I respect an individuals’ choice of political dogma, or lack thereof.

I am an american and we dont have this party here. I support freedom and god by voting republican. The republicans are the true patriots who are not
afraid to go toe to toe against liberals who want to burn our flag in the streets like these libertarians. I cant support a group that spits on the
american way of life by burning our flag or demonizing President Bush, the last true president.

Best trolling I've seen in a while...

1. We do have a Libertarian Party
2. Republicans do not support full freedom. They are for taxes, spending, creating ridiculous laws, and trying to 'morally' police the
populace....kinda of like another group I know of (Democrats).
3. Political Parties have nothing to do with patriotism.
4. Libertarians (or people of libertarian philosophy) were the first to throw and protect this country. (Most of our founding fathers hold
'librtarian' values).
5. WTF does demonizing a president have to do with anything?!
6. Last true president??? He barely won, and even that has it's conspiracies!!!!

I think it's more about degree. I've heard it said that Libertarianism is "Reasoned Anarchy", which I tend to agree with in some respects, so the
case can be made.

Normally, I find the more Libertarian one is, the less sane they are, and being Libertarian it should say something. When one gets to the point in
their thinking that we should divide the standing military up among the States, have private police and fire dept, and privatize everything down to
the last tack, their credibility and appraisal of the world has effectively been shot.

I don't find the current term "Libertarian" to be terribly close to "Pure Libertarianism". I understand you are speaking in abstract definitions
and in that respect you are somewhat correct.

You have the RIGHT to do anything as long as you do not infringe on someone else's rights of Life, Liberty or Property.

I will always be your friend and benefactor.

You have the right to your own world. You have the right to believe in what you want. You have the right to self determination.

Why the HELL are you not a Libertarian?

Well, since you and I are of the same political persuasion I have some well intended points.

1) I am a Libertarian and, for the most part, am fairly annoyed (to be nice) with my fellows.

2) You seem to have a lot of fire about one topic, and have a real tendency to drag threads kicking and screaming towards the same dead horse you've
been beating for some time now.

No offense intended as we are on the same side.

3) Look into Pure Libertarianism if you ever wonder why people think we are generally nuts. Real Libertarianism is foolish, reckless, and can end in
nothing but the death of America as we know it.

Only Reasoned and Limited Libertarianism has any chance of success.

4) I've discussed the same things you do for a long long time and can tell you that the debate equivalent of a battering ram really doesn't do any
good, and that's if you are debating reasonable people.

Unreasonable people won't listen to you no matter how you do it.

5) There really does need to be a greater variety of opinions rather than an ocean of superficial ones.

We endure wave after wave of (what I call) surface opinions, as most folks can't really get past the first "Why?" question about their opinions.
There is nothing supporting them and little to no facts or logic about it.

Be better than that and let's not egg on more anti-Libertarian feelings.

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