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Real Steel History

Posted 08 January 2011 - 01:37 AM

Mitchell Gee

AF-UK Veteran

Members

786 posts

Guns: VFC Mk.16 (SCAR-L)
G&G GR16 (M4)
HFC HG-185 (Glock 17)

Loadouts: S95 BDU's
5.11 VTAC Vest
Hi-tech Fiftypeaks boots

oki so ive decided to start a little series about real steel guns... as i believe that it can help people with there loadouts... as you dont wanna do a Vietnam loadout with a G36 or something stupid... so here goes...

My Knowledge Of The M4/M16 -
The M16A1 was developed as an self defence weapon to replace the SLR... it was released during the 'Nam war to be an "Self-Cleaning Weapon" which means all you were suppyed with was a rod and some cloth fore cleaning the barrel out if you just dragged it through mud or something... but on its first day of service nearly every single gun jammed! it turns out even to this day all the M16/M4 have to be serviced daily and if shots have been put through them or mud gets into any part it has to be stripped down and cleaned througherly...

Expanded KNowlege (wikipedia ):
Developed by armalite and fires 5.56mm shells, the M4 is purely a shortened version of the M16, they can have RIS systems so you attach add ons to it, this includes scopes, torches, lasers, M2O3 Granade lauches which and also be "Barrel Mounted"

Posted 08 January 2011 - 02:02 AM

the M16 Was actually built to replace the M14, the Americans didn't use the SLR as far as I'm aware.

The Manufacturer is also Colt.

Or Colt Defence as their formally known.

Should also note the M16A1 wasn't the earliest version of the rifle there was a version with a thumb type forward assist and non asjustable Sights (I think dont quote me on that) This was known as the XM16E1 Or Colt Model 603 If your being fancy. which was improved and when put into service was known as the M16A1

should also be said it wasn't built for home defence either, it was designed to fire a light round to mame a solider so by injuring one man it would take 2 more to carry him away from the battlefield. It was built to replace the Heavy M14 so the solider could be Light, Fast and still retain automatic fire oh and carry much more ammo!

Whats your getting confused with is the AR-15 (AR standing for Armalite) which was designed for home defence and only being Semi automatic.

Fun Fact! The weapon cannot be put into safe without being cocked first!

Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:16 AM

The M16 (just that) was the first in service, picked up by the USAF. Also used by ARVN in 'NamLacks any forward assist - known as the 'flat-sided reciever' due to this.

XM16E1 Rifle - M16 with a forward assist (thumb shaped). Different from -A1 because this has a slightly different lower-reciever. There is a slight difference around the mag well. This is 'technically' the prototype of the M16A1.USAF didn't want it, saw it as overly expensive. Only the US-Army and -MC took it (when it was first avaliable)If it's still in service with the States, it'll be secondline/reserve units like the National Guard, and some Law Enforcement agencies. However, I believe it's been superceeded in all units with M4s, Commandos (not the same) and M4-9mm SMG kits.

AR-15 is indeed the civilian semi-only version. The Commando carbines are not M4s. Colt made these during 'Nam. Would eventually be called the CAR-15 series. XM177 in Vietnam. It had a 10" barrel and a slab side receiver just like the original AR-15s. The Colt 609 was called the XM177E1, where they added a forward assist, upgraded the same modifications made to the A1 upgrade of the M16 rifle. This version was also where they started stamping the receivers "Commando", thus known as the "Colt Commando" back in the States. Colt Model 629 was officially designated the XM177E2 having changed the barrel from 10" to 11.5" and slightly changing the flash hider/sound suppressor. There is also a specially designed version for the USAF

M4The very earliest M4s delivered to the U.S. Army had fixed carry handles. Were known by Colt's as the Model 777; however, soon after, the military started buying the Model 920, which featured a detachable carry handle, but continued to call these guns "M4s". Contrary to popular misconception, the carry handles on most M4s and M4A1s are detachable, and most of these carbines are used with the carry handle removed, and a folding rear sight and optic being attached to the receiver instead.

Now, something that always bugs me - Armalites in British Service.The British Army has never used or equipped any of the above weapons, nor stocked it officially in the armouries - except - The SAS/SBS. They have used M16A2s - usually with M203s. Since replaced by Colt Canada/Demiaco C7s (M4a1) and C8s (M16A2). Used with H&K AG-36 40mm UGL.And - for a very short period, 3rd Battalion, Parachute Regiment, whilst operating in Northern Ireland were able to use M16A2s with M203s. I'm not sure how many actually did, although various books show photos of said unit with the M16.This was whilst waiting for the SA80 to be finished and released.*Edit...I have no idea why that tripple posted on me...

When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt: run in little circles, wave your arms and shout- Parody of the Litany of Command, popular with Commissar cadets.

Posted 08 January 2011 - 11:48 AM

keenananananana

AF-UK Starter

Members

30 posts

Guns: M4 ris
Mp5a4 lighted forgrip

Fun Fact! The weapon cannot be put into safe without being cocked first!

well ofcourse why do u need a saftey when theere is not round in the chamber so the gun is safe the likeliness of someone having a mag in their gun and someone else brushing past them and cocking it is very unlikely lol

Posted 08 January 2011 - 12:07 PM

elobire

AF-UK Starter

Members

34 posts

Fun Fact! The weapon cannot be put into safe without being cocked first!

well ofcourse why do u need a saftey when theere is not round in the chamber so the gun is safe the likeliness of someone having a mag in their gun and someone else brushing past them and cocking it is very unlikely lol

most guns can be put into safe before being cocked. its just to show to who ever is using it that its safe, although you probably assume it anyway.

Posted 08 January 2011 - 01:27 PM

Matt!

Moderator

Moderators

1290 posts

Guns: L119A1

Loadouts: DDPM, DPM, OD, TAN

Fun Fact! The weapon cannot be put into safe without being cocked first!

well ofcourse why do u need a saftey when theere is not round in the chamber so the gun is safe the likeliness of someone having a mag in their gun and someone else brushing past them and cocking it is very unlikely lol

well must guns can be put into safe regardless, lets say you have a magazine in but you never cocked the weapon (only you know you haven't cocked it) now your carrying around a weapon that appears to be loaded and in semi. in my eyes its a design flaw.

Posted 08 January 2011 - 01:30 PM

Matt!

Moderator

Moderators

1290 posts

Guns: L119A1

Loadouts: DDPM, DPM, OD, TAN

Now, something that always bugs me - Armalites in British Service.The British Army has never used or equipped any of the above weapons, nor stocked it officially in the armouries - except - The SAS/SBS. They have used M16A2s - usually with M203s. Since replaced by Colt Canada/Demiaco C7s (M4a1) and C8s (M16A2). Used with H&K AG-36 40mm UGL.And - for a very short period, 3rd Battalion, Parachute Regiment, whilst operating in Northern Ireland were able to use M16A2s with M203s. I'm not sure how many actually did, although various books show photos of said unit with the M16.This was whilst waiting for the SA80 to be finished and released.

THIS! but you got them fixed around the C8 is the M4 type and the C7 is the M16 type.

Posted 08 January 2011 - 02:05 PM

I teach weapon saftey at cadets and the safety can be and is used in allsorts of occastions...

Safe: The weapon is Clear with NO mag is in it and saftey is on

Made Safe: The weapon is clear but with mag still in and saftey is on

Loaded: The weapon has a round in the camber and the magazine is in but the weapon is still on saftey

Ready: The Weapon is cocked with mag in and set onto fire (or what ever the equvilent maybe... Semi, Full auto that sort of thing)

As you can see unless your ready to fire the saftey is always on... This is because you dont know if there is a round in the camber or not.. Yer you could of "Made Safe" but someone could of always cocked it or something...

YOU ALWAYS TREAT A WEAPON AS IF ITS LOADED EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT ISNT!!!!

Posted 08 January 2011 - 04:04 PM

THIS! but you got them fixed around the C8 is the M4 type and the C7 is the M16 type.

Haha, cheer for correcting me Matt - the whole Colt-Canada stuff confuses me, as technically the C7 is based on one of the Colt-Commando 16in barrel weapons, not the M16.

But yeah, the bit about British Service really cheeses me off, usually when (on the more American centric forums) someone says we used them/should use them again. The M16s the Paras and SFs used weren't bought direct from Colt/USA, but I can't remember where from. May have even been locally made, as Sterling Armaments made several AR-like weapons. The only time British troops have officially used the M4/M16 is on exchange exercises - UK troops and US troops frequently do a month or two of training in the other country, using their kit.

When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt: run in little circles, wave your arms and shout- Parody of the Litany of Command, popular with Commissar cadets.

Posted 08 January 2011 - 04:42 PM

I've only ever seen A2s, and those were almost always with the M203.
Never seen A1s, and the few books I've read only say A2s.
Thats for both Northern Ireland and general use - 3rd Batt. Paras, and both SAS/SBS.

Willing to be corrected as to whether they used M16A1s though.

When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt: run in little circles, wave your arms and shout- Parody of the Litany of Command, popular with Commissar cadets.

Posted 08 January 2011 - 06:29 PM

G-Force

AF-UK Addict

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1338 posts

also as far as I'm aware (I may be wrong) as metioned earlier the Brits used the SLR not the Americans they had m14's which came from the M1 Grand. I also think that the British army used the FAL which is the SLR with the fully automatic disabled (or something like that). When the M16 came in many of the US soldeirs still used the m14 as they thaught it was more reliable, and many m14's were fitted with scopes to be used as snipers. These M14s were known as m21s and were used primarly in vietnam howevr and upgraded version called the M25 was used in Desert Storm.

Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:45 PM

British Army has never used FALs, only SLRs. SLRs are specially designed versions of the FAL, fully licenced by FN, built and used by several Commonweath Nations.

The Australian SFs in 'Nam (SASR) may have used FALs. Since they put a new pistol-grip on the front to act as a foregrip, I assume they did have full auto versions. An American I know claims that Brits in the Falklands War used captured Argentinian FALs - I doubt this due to regulations on equipment, and how British troops were able to jury-rig a 3-round burst system with match-sticks in the chamber. But, if anyone has proof on Brits using captured FALs in the Falklands, I'll accept it.The Australian SASR did use M16s in Nam.

The M14 was removed from service for several reasons - too heavy, too fast RoF, big recoil and 'too accurate'. Not useful for suppressive fire if almost all of your rounds land in the same area. (Problem here being that the M14 had too much kickback - if you have heavy recoil and a high RoF, its unlikely that you'll have a very accurate weapon...)

The M16 could very well have been 7.62mm round - the AR10 prototype rifle was in 7.62, with the AR15 being 5.56. 5.56 was found to be a more suitable round.

The M14 lives on in various forms today - mostly as Alex put it, marksmen's weapons (DMRs), although a few modernised ('enhanced') versions are currently on the market (EBRs). M14EBRs are usually still full-auto capable, whilst the M21 isn't.

When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt: run in little circles, wave your arms and shout- Parody of the Litany of Command, popular with Commissar cadets.

Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:59 PM

G-Force

AF-UK Addict

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1338 posts

yeah I got it the wrong way round with the SLR and the FAL, i said the FAL was the modified one lol I knew that the British used the SLR (I've acctualy held the real thing) I just thaught that them being in the same family of guns that they may have used the FAL as well.
Anyway one of the classic guns from nam has to be the m60!

Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:10 PM

G-Force

AF-UK Addict

Members

1338 posts

that dosn't suprise me. M60 gunners or any other heavy support gunners would be a majour target in any war due to their ability to pin down the enemy with suppressing fire, for long periods of time without reloading. But that dosn't matter if your Rambo

Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:31 PM

I mentioned the AR-10 prototype earlier...
Well, if anyone's interested, the British Army have some. 440 of them, designated L129A1s have been bought as DMRs for certain units in Afghanistan.
So, I suppose one could say (very losely) that the British have (a form) of M16 in service. Albiet in 7.62, semi-only, based on a civilian target-shooting version, of a prototype weapon, now made by Lewis Machine Tools...

When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt: run in little circles, wave your arms and shout- Parody of the Litany of Command, popular with Commissar cadets.