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Thess - now here is a subject I could not pass up. (Or could you guess).

#1. No - people are not going to hell because they go to church on Sunday.

#2. No - people who go to church on Sunday do not have the Mark of the Beast -

#3. Go check out the 27 Fundamental Beliefs of SDAs - (it is published on the internet) if you want to know what they actually teach.

Having said all that - we DO believe that the Bible is God's Word - that the Ten Commandments are valid - are God's Law and that they do define sin even in the NT (see Romans 7, Galations 3, Romans 3, James 2 etc).

Of course Thess - I don't expect you to "Actually read" any of that - but I wanted to post it in case there are some who would.

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Oh and I forgot this one more point (In case we have some RC bretheren here who are tempted to pretend they don't understand the connection between the Law of God and sin and the Sabbath)...

Dies Domini pt 11 "the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love". Pt 15 "unlike many other precepts it (the Sabbath) is set not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue, the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human (not merely Jewish) heart".

Dies Domini pt 15 "in setting this (Sabbath) commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics ,Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and delible expression of our relationship with God"

Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

Dies Domini pt 13 -"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

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Banned

Originally posted by BobRyan: Thess - now here is a subject I could not pass up. (Or could you guess).

#1. No - people are not going to hell because they go to church on Sunday.

#2. No - people who go to church on Sunday do not have the Mark of the Beast -

#3. Go check out the 27 Fundamental Beliefs of SDAs - (it is published on the internet) if you want to know what they actually teach.

Having said all that - we DO believe that the Bible is God's Word - that the Ten Commandments are valid - are God's Law and that they do define sin even in the NT (see Romans 7, Galations 3, Romans 3, James 2 etc).

Of course Thess - I don't expect you to "Actually read" any of that - but I wanted to post it in case there are some who would.

In Christ,

Bob

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So are these people false teachers Bob?

"Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast." ... "The reception of his mark must be something that involves the greatest offense that can be committed against God." (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith pages 170, 183)

"Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible." (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23)

Hey, aren't her words divinely inspired?

"The Sunday Sabbath is purely a child of the Papacy. It is the mark of the beast." (Advent Review, Vol. I, No. 2, August, 1850.)

"The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church." ... "The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark." (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281.

Ellen G. again. Divinely inspired Bob?

"The mark of the beast is Sunday-keeping. A law will enforce this upon Seventh-day Adventists. They won't obey. Then they will be outlawed, persecuted, and condemned to death! Of all the wild Advent speculations in the prophecies, this deserves to stand among the wildest." (Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914)

"Sunday-keeping is an institution of the first beast, and ALL who submit to obey this institution emphatically worship the first beast and receive his mark, 'the mark of the beast.' .... Those who worship the beast and his image by observing the first day are certainly idolaters, as were the worshippers of the golden calf." (Advent Review Extra, pages 10 and 11, August, 1850)

"the Seventh day, Saturday, must be kept; that keeping Sunday is the mark of the beast; that all should pay tithes; that Mrs. White is inspired as were the writers of the Bible; that the Bible must be interpreted to harmonize with her writings" (Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914)

Here it says Mrs. White is divinely inspired and so "validates the above two quotes of hers.

Show me where Leo Schreven calls: The mark of the beast is Sunday-keeping
Show me where Leo Schreven says: Sunday-keepers will be condemned

Last one for now Bob. I am sure there are more. Are you going to deny your "very" "own" "sources" including Ellen G. the Prophets whom God "spoke" directly to?

Are you a liberal Bob? Or perhaps you can borrow some Catholic theology on salvatoin to worm your way out of this one. You won't of course. You will just keep tap dancing.

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Banned

After seeing the statements from Ellen G. where she "clearly" "states", contrary to "your" statements that "Sunday worship" "IS" the "MARK OF THE BEAST" and seeing as how you have stated so "many" times that "she" was "divinly inspired" I wonder if you have some sort of theology like papal infallibility where she was not always "divinely inspired". Perhaps ex-Sabaath (i.e. when she speaks on Saturdays ) or something like that. Also do you know that Ellen G. White would have said the Billy Graham wears the Mark of the Beast. And his son Franklin also I bet.

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Carson - since you seem to be having trouble with the idea of God's Word having anything to do with the subject of heaven, hell, sin and judgment ... let me help you by using a non-Bible pro-Catholic Source.

Your own RC publication - "The Faith Explained" (Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II) says very clearly that the non-Catholic - (Bible-based sola scriptura) view of the CAtholic Mass "Should be" that it is one of the purest forms of idolatry. (You know - one of the Ten Commandments "Again")

Here is what your document says ---

The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351 with parenthetical inserts “mine”

Page 350

“On this, the last night before His death, Jesus is making His last will and testament.

Page 351
A last will is no place for figurative speech (in the RC opinion); under the best of circumstances (human) courts sometimes have difficulty in interpreting a testator’s intentions aright, even without the confusion of symbolic language. Moreover, since Jesus is God, He knew that as a result of His words thig night, untold millions of people would be worshipping him through the centuries under the appearance of the bread. if he would not really be present under those appearances, the worshippers would be adoring a mere piece of bread, and would be guilty of idolatry,. Certainly that is something that God Himself would set the stage for, by talking in obscure figurative speech.
…
IF Jesus was using a metaphor; if what He really meant was, “This bread is a sort of SYMBOL of My Body, and this win a SYMBOL of My Blood (not yet spilled); hereafter, any time that My followers get together and partake of the bread and wine like this, they will be honoring Me and representing My death”; if that IS what Jesus meant (as many protestants claim), then the apostles got Him all wrong (in the RC option here). And through their misunderstanding (can the RCC blame them instead of the RCC?), mankind has for centuries worshiped A PIECE OF BREAD as God”

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And the mindless rebuttal to that pro-RC yet devastating statement that is in the form "yes but the Faith Explained IS Catholic so it does not take the non-Catholic view of the Mass" -- is still "pointless". The salient point is that EVEN the Faith Explained admits the conclusion that a non-Catholic view of the mass MUST admit.

Yet "EVEN THEN" in the case of breaking the Ten Commandments in such a blatant fashion - DO SDAs say that all Catholics who participate in the Mass worshipping bread as though it were God --- "go to hell??" and the answer is "NO"!.

Do we "still believe" the Holy Spirit is working to convict them of "Sin and righteousness and judgment" in that regard??? "YES"!

Now - see Carson - almost "no Bible" in that answer - just the teaching of the RCC --- so can you see it "now"??

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The Bible forbids the use of images - bowed to, their deities prayed to etc in worship as part of the 2nd commandment. (Hebrew numbering for the Hebrew text).

Yet Catholics will pray to the dead - setup their images in their churches and bow and kiss their statues etc.

Is that blatant violation of the Ten Commandments "wrong". Yes! Do SDAs say all Catholics go to hell for doing it?? "No".

"Whatever is not of faith is sin" Rom 14:23

"To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4":17

There is no difference with any one of the Ten Commandments. (Even though you seem to "want" Sabbath to be "different" here).

So Carson - are you still confused on what the position of the SDA church is regarding violation of "any ONE of the Ten Commandments" or are you willing to look at God's Word as it applies to this subject "yet"?

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"The Sunday Sabbath is purely a child of the Papacy. It is the mark of the beast." (Advent Review, Vol. I, No. 2, August, 1850.)

The papal statement above on Deis Domini already made that point.

So also does the Faith Explained below -- (SDAs simiply agree with the RCC on this point)

The Catholic commentary on the Baltimore catechism post
Vatican ii explains that keeping Sunday is in obedience to the Sabbath commandment. Catholics attend "in obedience to the third commandment of God 'remember thou keep holy the Lord's day'"
((from "The Faith Explained" pg 241.))

The Faith Explained (a commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on

Page 242 that changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

On page 243 the book states "nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))
"we know that in the o.t it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

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It "appears" that Thess wants to slam Ellen White for being in agreement with the RCC. I am not surprised that non-Catholics would want to take that view - but Catholics???

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I am not Catholic. I am also not SDA. BUT I do worship on the Sabboth(Saturday). The short answer to your question is NO , just because you worship on sunday does not mean you will go to hell. (I am also not Jewish)

God is merciful, and will forgive you for that the same as He will for murder, or stealing or any other sin. Provided that you repent and turn away and don't do it again!!!

As for Ellen G. White, if you do a close check on her material, you will find that about 50% of it was plagerized from other books by other people and she claimed it as her own, and gave no one credit for it but herself.

Now, about the Sabboth. If you can show me anywhere in the bible where God changed it from the last day of the week to the first day of the week (Sat to Sun) then I will start worshiping on Sunday again.

And by the way, until you have done a Sabboth day wordhip service, you will never know how blessed it can be.

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Banned

You avoid the question once again. Is Sunday Sabaath as stated by Ellen G. White who is divinely inspired, the Mark of the Beast or is she a liar on this point and so a liar in general? Your pointing the finger back at Catholicism may seem like a good way to sluff off your contradiction of her but she said it and so you must believe it if she is in fact divinely inspired. This thread isn't about Catholic teaching on the sabaath. It's about SDA's. This board is about Other Religions. I asked an SDA question. Quit avoiding it.

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I am not Catholic. I am also not SDA. BUT I do worship on the Sabboth(Saturday). The short answer to your question is NO , just because you worship on sunday does not mean you will go to hell. (I am also not Jewish)

God is merciful, and will forgive you for that the same as He will for murder, or stealing or any other sin. Provided that you repent and turn away and don't do it again!!!

As for Ellen G. White, if you do a close check on her material, you will find that about 50% of it was plagerized from other books by other people and she claimed it as her own, and gave no one credit for it but herself.

Now, about the Sabboth. If you can show me anywhere in the bible where God changed it from the last day of the week to the first day of the week (Sat to Sun) then I will start worshiping on Sunday again.

And by the way, until you have done a Sabboth day wordhip service, you will never know how blessed it can be.

Tam,

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Remember in the gospels Jesus was accused several times of breaking the sabbath by those who strictly held to the sabbath.

Acts 20:7, “On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.”

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Banned

#1. No - people are not going to hell because they go to church on Sunday.

All well and good but is that what the SDA's really teach.

Is Sunday worship the mark of the beast as taught in SDA theology?

Bob's answer:
#2. No - people who go to church on Sunday do not have the Mark of the Beast -

.Ellen G. White, the "divinely inspired prophetess" of the SDA Church says:

"The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church." ... "The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the RECEPtION of the MARK." (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281.

Bob claims over the words of Ellen G. White that Sunday keeping is not the Mark. Ellen G. says that it is. Address these issues Bob. This threads for you. Can one with the Mark of the Beast which according to SDA theology (not Bob Ryan) is Sunday Sabaath and keeping of sunday sabaath is reception of that mark, go to heaven? I am just not satisfied with your answer.

Bob's answer:
#2. No - people who go to church on Sunday do not have the Mark of the Beast -

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And even Ellen White did not claim that the Christians of her day had the Mark of the Beast...(Since she appears to be someone that you "prefer" to quote "instead" of the 27 Fundamental beliefs of Adventism... as if you had some history of actually reading what she wrote)

As already noted - the Faith Explained (a Catholic document) takes the SAME approach to the CHANGe of the Lord's Day made by the RCC.

AND (in case this subject is just oo hard for our RC bretheren) I have even included the Faith Explained and its view of idolatry and the Mass - showing that even though that too is a violation of the Ten commandments - STILL the Adventists do not say that those who practice it must all go to hell. (Though you seem to be dying to get them too... Keep trying.. )

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.. Your pointing the finger back at Catholicism may seem like a good way to sluff off your contradiction of her but she said it and so you must believe it if she is in fact divinely inspired...

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Ohhhh I get it.. you want to have a debate on the gift of prophecy and NOT talk about SDAs and their teaching on Sunday Worship - yes??

So when the RCC says IT takes credit of for the change of the Lord's day to Sunday
(as quoted here on this thread - and yet RC posters remain dumbfounded in their response to that RC document) -- and the Adventist church agrees that they are taking credit for what they actually did

--- you call that "not" accepting the Adventist POV???

Are you really reading what is being posted??

Idolatry in the mass, image worship, editing-changing the Lord's Day -- I have "exposed our teaching on ALL of it" saying that we oppose ALL of it - call ALL of it sin - but do not send all Christians that practice any one of those - to hell (as you seem to "want").

Shall we keep repeating that point?

As for who the Beast is - and What the mark of the Catholic Church is as it has placed it on the Ten commandments - are you wanting to have that discussion about history or just to discuss sin and the Ten Commandments?

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