If I recall correctly. Just something I picked up on IRC channels. Always asummed I was normal English. But likely not because you are not the first one to ask me this question.

About your views.Thanks for the detailed explanation. Open your mouth because I'm gonna throw a flashlight down your throat You have a healty dose of critisim/considerations; but what you state as personal facts IMO edges much closer to UR than to ET. At least the way I see it with my gigantic 13-14 month religious background... Your doubts may make your process of 'moving' slower but once you get there you are no longer in doubt by every chalanging article you read. So I think you critical thinking is

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Gilbert

Whew!Your accusation here against God is utterly stunning.Evidently, your god commits evil with the justification that the ends justify the means.

lol. The Machiavellian god. I'm going to make your own brothers betray you, and sell you into slavery, and put you into prison for 15 years, but it will be all worth it in the end! Not to worry!

Nono--the Bible clearly tells us that the brothers meant it for evil, not God.

If the brothers had out and out killed Joseph, as they started out to do, they would have meant that for evil, too.

I have never heard it expressed as "The Machiavellian god" before.Gosh, I had to look the term up in Google to really find out what you were meaning to say. Everyone an' their dog seems to have some idea of what this Machiavelli was trying to say; this fella has had nearly as many commentaries drafted about his writings as the Bible. :)All the same, your humor is much appreciated.

Jesus has a conversation with all His children in a language that they alone will understand; or at least tailored to speak to the distinct posture of their hearts and minds. This is most likely why each of us attach ourselves to certain teachings more readily than others.This is especially true concerning my testimony that "God is ONLY and COMPLETELY good" and that He does not participate with evil in any manner.

It shouldn't surprise us that it's alot easier to be a spectator to the supposed evil of God and quite something different when you are the victim. Those of us who were born blind or lame or deformed find it very difficult to follow after a God who is said to have consigned us to our frailty. The accusation that our God who now saves us from evil is also capable of actively participating with evil is exceedingly intolerable to us who, through no fault of our own, were slain or injured in the womb.

That is exactly the position I was in when I first heard the Gospel.I was able to avoid the pestering question for the first little while. But one night, I tearfully blurted out: "If you loved me enough to die for me, why did you create me like this?". "I've suffered through so much pain and anquish ... for what? What on earth were you hoping to teach me through it all?".

The long story short is that God took me for a journey through the Scriptures and clearly showed me who the real perpetrator of illness, disease and calamity was ... and. thankfully, it wasn't Him.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Whew!Your accusation here against God is utterly stunning.Evidently, your god commits evil with the justification that the ends justify the means.

lol. The Machiavellian god. I'm going to make your own brothers betray you, and sell you into slavery, and put you into prison for 15 years, but it will be all worth it in the end! Not to worry!

Nono--the Bible clearly tells us that the brothers meant it for evil, not God.

If the brothers had out and out killed Joseph, as they started out to do, they would have meant that for evil, too.

I have never heard it expressed as "The Machiavellian god" before.Gosh, I had to look the term up in Google to really find out what you were meaning to say. Everyone an' their dog seems to have some idea of what this Machiavelli was trying to say; this fella has had nearly as many commentaries drafted about his writings as the Bible. :)All the same, your humor is much appreciated.

Jesus has a conversation with all His children in a language that they alone will understand; or at least tailored to speak to the distinct posture of their hearts and minds. This is most likely why each of us attach ourselves to certain teachings more readily than others.This is especially true concerning my testimony that "God is ONLY and COMPLETELY good" and that He does not participate with evil in any manner.

It shouldn't surprise us that it's alot easier to be a spectator to the supposed evil of God and quite something different when you are the victim. Those of us who were born blind or lame or deformed find it very difficult to follow after a God who is said to have consigned us to our frailty. The accusation that our God who now saves us from evil is also capable of actively participating with evil is exceedingly intolerable to us who, through no fault of our own, were slain or injured in the womb.

That is exactly the position I was in when I first heard the Gospel.I was able to avoid the pestering question for the first little while. But one night, I tearfully blurted out: "If you loved me enough to die for me, why did you create me like this?". "I've suffered through so much pain and anquish ... for what? What on earth were you hoping to teach me through it all?".

The long story short is that God took me for a journey through the Scriptures and clearly showed me who the real perpetrator of illness, disease and calamity was ... and. thankfully, it wasn't Him.

Oh, sorry, lol. I thought you knew who he was because you used the phrase most often associated with him, 'The ends justify the means,' which, as you can see is at best amoral but more reasonably called, immoral. In a truly moral world, the ends never justify the means. In a truly moral world, 'first, do no harm.'

Machiavelli, by the way, is still greatly admired by some of our creepiest politicians, especially his playbook on how to seize and hold power, The Prince. They apparently have never been introduced to real power or the real Prince.

Wow!So, you'll forgive me if I can't thread the idea you gave above through the eye of any scriptural needle.

OK, let's say that again just as a refresher:"Not all evil is wicked and dark".Oh, I see.That's like saying:Not all poop smells.And, even if it does, it can make excellent fertilizer.Not all rotten apples are rotten.But if you crush 'em an' add a bit of food coloring, you can sell 'em as pure apple juice.

All the same, poop does smell and rotten apples are just that: rotten.

We have Christians today accusing God of every kind of evil. They say that God killed that person or caused that hurricane or gave a disease to someone. Then they happily knit it together and justify all the misery and pain because it all supposedly works for the good.Some even say that God heaps calamity and disease on people to bring them closer to Himself; they have God acting as an abusive spouse using the demented pretext that one is more likely to appreciate Him when He loves.

Somehow we expect more from humans than God Himself.Why is it that the evil some accuse God of doing, we would never excuse with our fellow human beings?Would anyone befriend someone who might purposely harm you one day and embrace you the next?Would anyone boast of having physician who both creates disease as well as healing them?

Hey Gilbert,

Thanks for your honest imput. The poop and apples comparison is not the same as the one I was making, namely, that all wickedness is evil, yet all evil is not wickedness. It is an apples and oranges comparison.

To use an obvious example, all German Shepherds are dogs, but not all dogs are German Shepherds. The problem that hangs us up is that we have a definition for the word evil that is not inherent in the word itself. What has become attached to it has replaced it in meaning.

The word in Hebrew simply means something that does not function the way it was intended. Conversely, the word for good in Hebrew means something that functions the way it was intended. For example, when God looked at what he had made during the days of creation, he did not call them good because they looked cool, but because everything at that moment was doing what he had designed it to do. It was functional.

The idea of wickedness is an added condition to that, but it must not replace the primary meaning.

This understanding is why Job could say:

Job 2:10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

Job credits God with the evil (dysfunction) that occurred in his life. And Moses, who wrote the book, was inspired to say:

Job 42:11 Then came there to him all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all those who had been of his acquaintance before, and ate bread with him in his house. They comforted him, and consoled him concerning all the evil that Yahweh had brought on him. Everyone also gave him a piece of money,[1] and everyone a ring of gold.

The death of his children, the loss of his wealth, and health, was surely done by Satan, but who was it that initiated it? According to Job 1, God did. He is the one who asked the question: "Have you considered my servant Job?" He is the one to gave Satan permission to do what he did.

From a passionate purely human standpoint, that sounds so cruel of God to do such a thing, yet again, what happened, while evil, was not wicked, because God is not, and does not do wickedness. Also, from a purely human point of view, if I did not understand God as I have come to understand him, would the replacement of all that I lost REALLY justify the loss in the first place? In other words, if God sent Satan to take the life of someone you love, then gave you someone else a bit later, wouldn't you, in your humanness, still be upset at the loss of the first one you loved? Can the replacement truly "make it all better?" Again, thankfully, the loss of Job was not a permanent one, for I believe God has reconciled them all, and now they fully understand why it all happened.

As for why I would not excuse evil that I would excuse God for, that would depend again on what you mean. For example, for someone to just up and kill someone else, I would not excuse. That is evil, and wicked. However, such as in the case of the Israelites, when God TOLD them to kill every man, woman, child, and animal in the places where they conquered, that also was evil, but NOT wicked. God is the one who told them to do it, as is his right. There is something much greater than the mere physical death of a person.

Every time I spank my son if he is rebellious, I am doing evil to him, simply because I am bringing calamity to his behind. It is not what his buttocks was created for, if you will. But what I am doing is not wicked, but ultimately, that evil works for his good. That is why I do that in love, because someone who does not, the Bible says "hates his son."

Again, it ultimately comes down to understanding what evil is, because if God has absolutely nothing to do with the Biblical definition of evil, "rah", then I have to cut out several portions of scripture or simply ignore them. To me, this shows the harmony in them concerning this.

And just want to make it clear that I am not trying to "convince or change" your viewpoint. I just am hoping you can at least understand why I believe the way I do, whether you agree with it or not. To me, we are still brothers in Christ, united in spirit, and I trust that if what I understand is off, God will reveal it for me to know what is true.

We are living in a day and hour when that scripture saying there would be a day when God would have a people who would actually worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH. The understanding we are receiving about this today is the LIGHT of that Day leading toward filling us with that light that is the life of God. To have that light, or enlightenment in truth, we must be sure about the character and attributes of God. After all, obtaining the desires of God as our own desires leads us to intimately see and know Him.

wow!

2The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

3Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

You ask if man can choose to do evil? Not on his own. We only choose what God has ordained for us to choose.

If no one SEEKS God and it isn't in man to do good, how do we choose it? Rom. 3:12 There is none that doeth good, no not one. Luke 18:19 None is good, save one, that is God.

CHB

So then man does choose. Man does choose either evil or good. To me, in this conversation about will and choice and evil, it is important to distinguish choice from will. I see God revealing his sovereignty by CAUSING Esau to CHOOSE a bowl of soup over his birthright. Making no mistake that God had already made the determination, yet He brought that determination about through the choices of the subject.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart, SO THAT he would CHOOSE a course of action that would then bring about the revelation of God's glory in delivering the Jews out of Egypt despite man's opposition. That man HAS a choice is not to say that those choices are on a foundation of autonomy to God's sovereignty.

I have no problem saying that man must choose Christ, only that I know that it is God who chooses who will come to them. His invisible hand is working in those choices we make so that nobody can say that they appointed themselves. It is God who chooses the elect before they are born.

I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves. However our choices are caused by things we have no control over. Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof), life experiences, genetics, etc... , but God knew about all these things beforehand, and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life. In other words, in God's plan, he allowed certain things to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded. Its pretty cool actually! God is able to control everything, but he does it in a way in which he still allows us to be in control of our choices. So we are free, but only within the confines of the life circumstance we are each trapped in and heavily influenced by.

Gilbert

We are living in a day and hour when that scripture saying there would be a day when God would have a people who would actually worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH. The understanding we are receiving about this today is the LIGHT of that Day leading toward filling us with that light that is the life of God. To have that light, or enlightenment in truth, we must be sure about the character and attributes of God. After all, obtaining the desires of God as our own desires leads us to intimately see and know Him.

wow!

2The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

3Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

--Isa 9

Hi! MollySo, we meet again, huh?It's always nice to see you adding a comment to my Posts. For one thing, it's good to know there is agreement among God's people;and, of course, I am flattered that anyone would freely give me five minutes from their busy day.

It's oftentimes a struggle for me to state the things as I do in here. My immediate desire is to avoid confrontation and/or rejection. I'm more likely to melt away rather than being assertive. I occasionally write for a Christian E-Zine and, similar to this forum format, it's much easier to be assertive when behind keyboard as opposed to having to witness the blushed faces of those in disagreement.

However, because I find the accusation of God being evil so utterly intolerable, I find myself entering into the discussion without hesitation.

Zeek

If Jesus is the image of God, and Jesus turned the other cheek; and refused to rise up in anger against those enemies rejecting and killing him; but rather went the way of the cross; dying for the world

then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus; repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children.

for me, one of two things: all of the bible is a parable reflecting the death and resurrection of old and new "thinking" within (carnal mind and mind of Christ) with all characters and happenings a "personfication" of the inner mind in humans

or

the god/jehovah of the old testament is not the same as Jesus; but rather an imposter; the actual "murderer from the beginning", the god of this world.

Zeek

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isa 13:12 I will make a man more rare than fine gold, even a man than the pure gold of Ophir.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens to tremble, and the earth shall be shaken out of its place, in the wrath of Jehovah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 13:14 And it shall come to pass, that as the chased roe, and as sheep that no man gathereth, they shall turn every man to his own people, and shall flee every man to his own land.

Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is taken shall fall by the sword.

Isa 13:16 Their infants also shall be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be rifled, and their wives ravished.

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Isa 13:18 And their bows shall dash the young men in pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeans' pride, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there.

Isa 13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and ostriches shall dwell there, and wild goats shall dance there.

Isa 13:22 And wolves shall cry in their castles, and jackals in the pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Zeek

Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

vs.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;

If Jesus is the image of God, and Jesus turned the other cheek; and refused to rise up in anger against those enemies rejecting and killing him; but rather went the way of the cross; dying for the world

then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus; repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children.

for me, one of two things: all of the bible is a parable reflecting the death and resurrection of old and new "thinking" within (carnal mind and mind of Christ) with all characters and happenings a "personfication" of the inner mind in humans

or

the god/jehovah of the old testament is not the same as Jesus; but rather an imposter; the actual "murderer from the beginning", the god of this world.

I agree Zeek.

Logged

"I knelt to drink,And knew that I was on the brinkOf endless joy. And everywhereI turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Zeek

If Jesus is the image of God, and Jesus turned the other cheek; and refused to rise up in anger against those enemies rejecting and killing him; but rather went the way of the cross; dying for the world

then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus; repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children.

for me, one of two things: all of the bible is a parable reflecting the death and resurrection of old and new "thinking" within (carnal mind and mind of Christ) with all characters and happenings a "personfication" of the inner mind in humans

or

the god/jehovah of the old testament is not the same as Jesus; but rather an imposter; the actual "murderer from the beginning", the god of this world.

I agree Zeek.

I love this verse

Joh 1:18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only [5] unique Son, or [6] the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him andHe has made Him known].(7)

.. because I find the accusation of God being evil so utterly intolerable, I find myself entering into the discussion without hesitation.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Wow! ZeekAn', tuh think that a Poster assigned with the big "500" is in agreement with me ... whew! Miracles do still happen, ay?

Hi Gilbert;

been through many trying beliefs in the last 7 years, but one I know in my heart; is God is LOVE, and love thinketh no evil.

1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

And LOVE is reflected through Jesus, who willingly layed down his life.

Hi!

Yeah, that's what I find most astonishing in here.There are people in here who have rightly discarded the 'Gospel of Eternal Torment' but are still holding on to an image of God as the being a tormenter; those who boast of of having escaped the howling lies of eternal punishment still insisting that their God is one of retribution.It's really quite amazing to me.

When someone comes to know God as 'Lord of the universe', they are able to rightly perceive His sovereignty and lordship over all of creation. However, when one enters into a relationship with this same God as their 'Heavenly Father', their former image of Him changes accordingly. No longer are they willing to remain attached to ideas which do not belong to Him.

Yesterday, I mentioned to someone that lot's of people are quite able to offer opinions and cut n' paste about the mundane literal origins of particular words. It seems that few explain what they have perceived through faith; it's mostly a preoccupation with what they have deciphered from commentaries and word studies and such. Nothing terribly wrong with that; but it reveals a certain lack nonetheless.

It's as if they have not actually experienced in any real and tangible way what they purport to believe; otherwise, they would be much more capable of testifying to what they have seen and heard and not just what they have read or studied.Know what I mean?

I also said to him that I often have wondered what it must have been like to have lived way back when Jesus was walking suntanned and fearless on the shores of Galilee. The majority of the people were very uneducated and mostly depended on story-tellers for a remembering of their past and some even depended on lying soothsayers to see their futures. It wasn't that these people were somehow simpletons. It was because they were unskilled and untrained about spiritual things.

Jesus had to draw illustrations in the sands and speak in parables using pictures from everyday life to reach these people. After all, they had barely emerged from the times of scrawling on cavern walls and even parchment was in its early stages at the time.Yet, it was precisely these kind of people who grasped the essence and integrity of the Gospel.Amazing when you think of it, ay?It doesn't appear that anyone was compelled to be preoccupied with word definitions and such to comprehend the Gospel. They had no libraries, no commentaries, no concordances and certainly Google might have been a help. But somehow, we think that this is so very indispensable to us in these days.

That's why I suspect that there are great moves of God in these places; simply because there are no unnecessary distractions or compulsion to define things to the INth degree. Instead, their hearts were open to the Scriptures unimpeded and uninterrupted by other peripherals. I think we spend far too much time opening our minds to the scriptures instead of our hearts.

Man, Gilbert... You couldn't hear me but I was over here saying AMEN, BRO!!!

You voiced what is in my heart, also.

Thank you for being you.

Logged

"I knelt to drink,And knew that I was on the brinkOf endless joy. And everywhereI turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.