Comments

Comment by olss0nftw

I will try this spell out today, and check if its worth to use WF weapon or if its better to use flametongue weapon.

Will edit this post later tonight. But I realy think that its better with flametongue weapon because its fire dmg = 100% dmg and no armor migration.

I have now tested it some, not much, but its better to use a slow offhand with flametongue then everything else. I tested some with a fast offhand, but i did more dmg with a slow offhand.

So i say flametongue with a slow offhand is the best thing to use =)

Comment by Xenith

You would definitely want to use flametongue weapon if you plan on spamming this ability. If you use WF, then you are going to be increasing the odds that you are proc'ing WF with your offhand (at 50% damage) and putting WF on its 3 sec internal cooldown. This is already an undesirable effect, which is why any good Enh shaman uses a slow weapon in their OH. Using this ability with WF on your OH weapon would be counter-productive.

And, as olss0nftw mentioned, you'd rather have the damage increased by 25% due to the elemental damage caused by this ability. =D Whether this ends up being more damage than OH WF procs, or if it's too cumbersome due to causing a GCD every 6 seconds from spamming the ability, will remain to be seen.

Comment by hordy

I think it is clear to most shamans that flametongue should be used for OH as a result of this spell. Now the question becomes, should shamans stick with slow OH for harder Lava Lash hits, or faster OH for more Maelstrom Weapon procs. I'm sure elitest jerks are already working on this.

Comment by orcishincubus

This ability is released on the PTR also.

Did a little testing on mobs that were 60-61 (the nagas in Zangarmarsh)

No, it's not perfect and I don't remember if Disdain procced when it happened, but it's at least some rough numbers for now, for those that are curious.

(edit for Photobucket being annoying as !@#$)

Comment by Mirhawk

I like how this talent and Malestrom Weapon mean that we Enhancement Shaman don't just spam Earth Shock over and over anymore, but instead get some tools to variate what we do.

Comment by Biske

Is this going to be the first ability that is completely unusable by a class unless they're specced into a specific tree?

This needs to be a talent, really.

Comment by Blueblaze

Since it says it does 100% off-hand damage, wouldn't that circumvent the DW penalty and make WF desirable on both weapons, since the proc would be as big if it were with a MH wep? or does the 50% reduction still take place?

Comment by branflakes

There will be a few things to consider here before we can truly gauge the power of this spell.

Does it crit based on spell or physical %? (it can crit)Is it mitigated at all by armor? (likely not)Does it scale with spellpower? (already known to scale with AP)Can it miss/be resisted?Can it be dodged/parried/blocked?Does it consume our new stormstrike charges?

With that said, it's still a very welcome change considering it's a new melee special attack. That alone means more yellow damage, which means it can't be a glancing blow.

Comment by Blueblaze

I think it should be able to proc WF and Flametounge. Especially if it works the way I hope it does. Might keep the slow/slow wf/wf combination alive. =/

Lava Lash crits at the same rate as my white Melee damage, 34%.Average hit was 589, average crit was 1180. Highest crit was 1.8k.

Flametongue Weapon was critting at 35%.Average hit was 195, average crit was 305. Highest crit was 419.

Total damage was 1209237. Here's the breakdown:

Melee - 47.6%

Windfury Attack - 15.6%

Flametongue Attack - 9.3%

Lightning Shield - 5.9%

Lava Lash - 5.8%

Chain Lightning - 5.2%

Earth Shock - 3.6%

Lightning Bolt - 2.9%

That's a lot of damage sources for Enhancement!Stormstrike doesn't have its own damage anymore - seems to be counting as Melee.

Once I figured out a good rotation (SS, Lash, Flame/Earth Shock, Lightning bolt ha!, refresh Lightning Shield if necessary), I was fluctuating between 1k and 1.5k DPS. I have yet to break 1.3k DPS in any setting on live. Prince ended with me at 1.3k for that fight.

This is makes Enhancement a lot more fun. There's a LOT less waiting between the two 6-second cooldowns, the 8-second Stormstrikes and the instant LB/Chain Lighting!

Edit:New training dummies in Stormwind! WF/FT outperformed WF/WF by 150 DPS. It was a little uncontrolled (debuffs from other players).

Comment by myrddinde

Well Lava Lash by itself is not really strong, but in addition with other Buffs and Talents the damage adds up quickly.

The new Talents will help increase its damage a lot. At first I was seeing the same damage as you described above, but if you spec into Elemental Fury, if you have Flame Tongue on offhand, make sure you have the new glyphed Stormstrike with +28% damage on fire damage your crits will become quite high. My highest Lava Lash crit according to Recount was 2500 Damage, I added a Screenshot from Beta Client with 2100 damage here at level 78 with Mounting Vengeance:

With proper gear I guess we will be seeing crits above 3k-3.5k and even more raidbuffed.

Comment by solartrixx

yea, i'm pretty sure according to elitist jerks enhancement shamans shouldn't earth shock spam in the first place, to use the stormstrike flame shock earth shock rotation you put out a lot more dps and i've actually done this and had my dps increased ever since i was around lvl 60.

Comment by 7598462153

I'm actually kind of hoping that this is normalized, or gets normalized. I'm a bit tired of being forced to either use slow weapons or significantly nerf DPS.

Comment by jacksonplayr

Now i am still lvln and shaman so sorry if i get this wrong BUT it would seem that slow/slow would still be the way to go seeing as SS is a double attack with both weaps and this is 100% offhand damage so it would hit harder. not to mention (and this is totally situatuional) what if you are farming fire elementals and dps'n a fire boss it would be nice to fall back to WF/WF in those cases.

Edit: I dont know why i did think of this as i have a fury warrior. Another point to slow/slow keep a fast offhand from eating you flurry proc.

Comment by Murmillos

I'll check again on the PTR, but I could have sworn I still saw StormStrike damage in the damage meter 'Recount' with values of about 20-25% on my several different Attack Dummy runs.

I'll edit or strike out this post once I have more info.

Comment by Murmillos

I'll check again on the PTR, but I could have sworn I still saw StormStrike damage in the damage meter 'Recount' with values of about 20-25% on my several different Attack Dummy runs.

I'll edit or strike out this post once I have more info.

Comment by katakotia

Can anyone find out if this is even usable with a two-handed weapon?Thanks

Comment by Wooohooohooo

I have this talent & do use it with Flametongue Weapon enchant unto my offhand. Its effectiveness without a doubt in BG/PVP is impressive. WF on my MH & FT on my OH, plus a 6sec CD on Lava Lash astounding in heroics & raids. However, do consider if you are to go up against an immune to fire target. Otherwise, you should see now how cloth armor opponents go down in cinders. Not certain if casters are still trying to figure out their talent trees, but they seem to be going down quicker against my melee class.

Comment by shinn27

mm from the comments here it seems the dps from FT on offhand is higher..however does this mean we'll be needing stack +hit to the hit cap now?

Comment by jimbob2834

Questions: Does Lava Lash get Elemental Devastation to proc? No, it does not.

Does Flametoungue weapon get Elemental Devastation to proc? No, this doesn't either.

And isn't Slow/Slow with WF/WF still not more effective if you do Lava Lash after the WF procs? When tested on the dummies in Org i managed to have a higher dps when using Slow/slow with WF/Flametounge than with slow/slow with WF/WF. This might be 'cause elemental devastation procs of the shocks and instant lightningbolts which gave me a higher melee dps. Other than that, I will try to run some more testing and come back to you.

Comment by lsfreak

Physical Crit and Spell Crit were united the patch so there shouldn't be a difference between the two.

Just wanted to point out that while spell and physical crit ratings were merged, there are other sources that weren't. Agility does not increase your spell crit, nor does intellect increase your melee crit. Likewise, Rampage/LotP are melee-only while Moonkin Aura is spell-only, and melee hits get no benefit from Improved Scorch or Winter's Chill while spells do. Self-buffed or even raid buffed, melee crit should be well ahead of spell crit, but adding in a mage for debuffs will probably pull spell crit ahead.

Comment by Grimtongue

I dislike this ability, but it does give more DPS than WF/WF. You also have to consider that spell power from Flametongue will boost our LB damage, which you should be using with a full Maelstrom stack.

Comment by webkilla

new patch notes say:

Shaman: Lava Lash - Fixed a bug which allowed you to use the ability even if you had a shield in offhand. Now requires a 1hand axe, fist or dagger to be able to be used.

axe - fist - dagger

where on earth is 1h MACE! I refuse to believe that blizzard is stupid enough to try and force slow off-hand maces out of the game.... i mean, rogues dont use slow off-hands, combat mace specs still want fast off-hands...

i hope that this is a type from the devs

Comment by Plaetolius

Will this spell also benefit from Flametongue Totem for a spell dmg increase as well as having your OH charged with Falmetongue? Anyone know?

Comment by bogdan15

what happens if you try using Lava Lash with a 2hander on?

Comment by Novawolf

I thought rogues loved slow weapons? They get more benefit from S&D and can do more damage.

Comment by IndolentBagel

I have been reading all the posts, and the general consensus is that Flametongue is the best choice for offhand. I have yet to decide if I agree.

Here is what I know for sure:In a RAID scenario the reason duel-wield Windfury has been so good to shamans is because they are not required to cap hit rating for their offhands (like rogues). Windfury is considered a special attack, therefore only needing 9% hit rating (3% if speced with 3/3 Duel Wield Specialization) to hit a raid boss from on a proc on EITHER hand. (This is a HUGE deal, because the typical off-hand hit rating cap is 28%.) Though, with Flametongue stepping in to replace Windfury on off-hand, hit rating becomes more of an issue.Now from what I am reading about Lava Lash, it is considered special attack, and therefore only needs 9% hit rating (just like Windfury). But the Flametongue procs are spell damage, and spells require 17% hit rating, which is twice as much as special attacks. I am assuming that the reason Blizzard increased Lava Lash when Flametongue is applied, was to compensate for the damage lost to hit rating. This however, does not rectify the issue that flametongue can still benefit from more hit rating.

Here is what I want to know:Does Flamtongue spell power bonus stack if you apply it to BOTH weapons? Does Flametongue receive bonus hit rating from Duel Wield Specialization (like Windfury does)? Has anyone with a level 80 shaman (that has 9% hit rating or LESS) tested the damage output of duel Windfury weapons and Winfury/Flametongue weapons, on a RAID dummy? Has anyone with a level 80 shaman (that has 17% hit rating or MORE) tested the damage output of duel Windfury weapons and Winfury/Flametongue weapons, on a RAID dummy?

Comment by TurkBrown

Ok, When it says Off-Hand weapon, does that mean whatever is in your off-hand weapon, or you need an actual "Off-Hand" weapon? So, if you have a "One-Hand" weapon in your off-hand slot that will work right?

I'm lvl 68 and attacking the 70 dummy with lavalash, gives about 95% dmg. Is that normal?

Comment by jonathanbruder

Slow down there... while agi is more desirable than strength, remember that it's budgeted much higher than AP. Before, str = 2AP... Now, str = 1AP and agi = 1AP. On items with approximately equal str & agi, you might not be losing AP; otherwise, you will never rebuild your AP by stacking agi.

The changes were designed to make hunter gear more desirable to enh shamans. While I haven't run the numbers, I'd bet that stacking AP & crit will come out on top, with some requisite focus on stats that have been marginalized in the past but make a stronger showing in lich king: haste, armor pen and expertise.

Comment by JBird

I've been testing this move out and i have noticed this move does proc maelstrom point and it does proc your offhand enchant on it (like WF or FT) when you use it so useing Lava lash ive noticed after the FT proc goes off lava lash really does about as much dmg as your main hand weapon can since it ignores armor and procs FT since FT always procs off every hit

Comment by eranikusnxt

I personaly think this is the thing to use while your shocks are on cooldown. POW, right in the kisser! :)

Comment by poggg

This spell is getting a new icon in 3.1.

Well thank god for that!

Comment by Stormwaker

In patch 3.1, it's receiving a new icon, along with riptide as well.

The new icon is viewable on the ptr version of wowhead. Basically, looks like a mace in motion with a fiery haze in the front, with lava enveloping the front and dripping slowly towards the back.

Comment by Ichimanako

Blizzard - Making Enhancement Shamans OP since 2008.* Patch 2.0.4 Stormstrike has a new icon. * Patch 3.1.0 Lava Lash now has a new icon.

(found on EU forums btw :p )

Comment by Olicon

I suppose it wouldn't work on 2handers, right? (The tooltip would lead me to believe so).It's a shame though. If this works on 2handers, that would make suicide bomber shaman viable again.

Comment by DrChristmas

Just a new icon? Why didn't they fix the real problem with Lava Lash?

It has a wimpy sound effect.

Comment by darknesscalls

WF/WF If you don't have 5/5 Elemental Fury.

WF/FT If you have 5/5 Elemental Fury.

Slow/Slow always

Theorycrafting complete

Comment by mapaiva

hi.. i have a question to do...lava lash can be used with a one hand weapon or off hand weapon?

Comment by Technic

I have noticed something really odd about this ability.. The amount of weapon damage done gets higher with faster weapons (i.e. daggers). With Angry Dread in my OH it was doing 100%, but with Golem-Shard Sticker in my OH it's doing 120% (not including the bonus 25% from having FT imbued on it).

Comment by Fidchell

Anyone know why it's marked as "Rank 1" instead of having no ranks like Stormstrike?

Comment by limmyman

What the hell? u learn the accual spell at lvl 45, yet u can get the glyph at freakin lvl 15? that is MESSED UP!

Comment by Nerobyrne

Does this mean that this is in fact not a spell, but still deals full fire damage?In that case, I'm going to assume it does not benefit from spell power, which would suck as it deals weapon damage, and not melee damage. The latter gets a bonus from atk, the former does not.

Comment by Gremalkin

There is some evidence on this page thatsuports the theory that Lava Lash does NOTwork if you use a 2H instead of DW.

However it is safer to ask and get astraight answer then guess wrong.

So... can you use this with a 2H ?

Comment by eightysixlol

a sign from the devs that we're definitely supposed to be dual wielding :<

Comment by nataku87

Maybe because there will be a Rank 2...

Comment by chop360

Can this be used with a shield?

Comment by Sacrosterion

Is it just me, or should this ability 'Lash' in a cone infront of the shaman? It would be better because shaman's don't have many multi-target attacks.Chain lightning, Magma totem(which is too expensive), lava burst(which is even more expensive) and that's it. If it did hit multi-targets then it would give people more reason too choose enhancement.

Comment by Omgomgesiuol

Enhance Shamans "signature" move in Cata, that you learn the second you spec into Enh.

Shame, I thought it'd be Stormstrike. (Even with the fact they said it'd be baseline, it would make sense IMO)

Comment by Gulanzon

It's 100% of your character sheet's offhand damage, which is after the 50% penalty. So, you do 0.50 * 1.25 = 62.5% of your weapons' printed damage + a flametongue proc, which basically works out to be a free weapon swing every 6 seconds (at my current rather low level of gear, at any rate).

I suppose you can basically look at any offhand imbue as being the Shaman's version of Dual Wield Mastery, and this is probably why we don't see it in our talent trees. (I also like how this keeps the flavour of "Enhancement"--we're still Shamans, after all, and we complement our physical strength with our powers gained via our relationship with the spirits of nature: stormstrike, lava lash, totems, etc; all these have a very "magicey" feel to them).

If you're rocking the Triumph totem, that's a free weapon swing and an 80% chance of buffing your AP by 400 (and consequently your spellpower by 120). Very nice.

At any rate, to answer your question about whether or not to use WF/WF...

Short answer:

While levelling? Yes. By the time you're raiding? WF/FT.

Long answer:

In the short, bursty fights of non-elite world creeps, WF/WF will maximise your WF uptime, at the cost of the spellpower bonus on FT (which will never matter, since you will likely only being using lightning bolt and an earth shock in a standard fight). More WF procs = more weapon swings = faster Maelstrom stacks = on-the-go healing/LB/CL.

In the longer fights of heroics and raids, the spellpower boost from FT benefits a large part of your damage (including, deliciously, all three of your AoEs), and the damage a FT proc will do somewhat outstrips the net damage of offhand Windfury procs and lost mainhand Windfury procs.

If you're ever in doubt, there are three very useful tools for the dedicated:

#1 is Rawr. Windows users need only google it. Mac users may find a Silverlight version on the EJ site. This will help you plan out your gear, and give you delicious numbers to fantasise about.#2 is EnhSim. Windows users, again, may google it. Mac users are out of luck, but Rawr should suffice.#3 is Recount. Watch your personal detail window like a hawk! There's lots of useful information in here about where your damage is coming from, and you can make further fine-tuning adjustments based on this, after Rawr has optimised your gear (which is as painful as complex as the Enhancement shaman itself).

137.50% OH damage in WotLK vs 620.00++% (~400-500% in PvP) OH damage in Cataclysm.The cooldown is also decreased from 6 to 10 seconds.

Please correct this post when the information is outdated (after patches which nerf/buff Lava Lash or nerf/buff certain talents/glyphs/effects that buff Lava Lash).

EDIT: According to Morphis80, all damage increases in WoW are additive. I'm not sure about this, therefore i will not change the numbers. Numbers are merely for showing people the new lava lash will be stronger and with less cooldown. BTW: I actually think he is right (because otherwise it seems extremely overpowered), but it seems very unlikely.

EDIT: CD increased to 10 seconds in beta build 12857.

Comment by Morphis80

You are wrong on those numbers.All damage increses in WoW are additive and based on base damage, i.e. 100% damage.

The right numbers for lava lash in cataclysm(not going to calculate it for Wotlk now) are:200.00%240.00 - OH flametongue250.00 - glyph of lava lash(but i presume that if it stays in game as a glyph will be increased, at least double in %)280.00 - improved lava lash380.00 - five searing flames applications on enemy(390.00 - on target affected by Frozen Power - you'll have to wear FB/FT which is aweful for both PvE/PvP, so this is between brackets)

*new* 410% - mastery (when u wrote your numbers i presume the mastery was still affecting only nature damage)

~ 400% damage(offhand, so 200% of an equivalent MH attack) is still quite a big number considering it bypasses armor being an elemental damagin attack.Almost 1/4 of its damage is based on the stack of searing totem attack anyways, giving it less strength in pvp(and in pve when u have to switch targets).

Overall i like it hitting harder with longer CD. Frees up some GCD and gives another "big hit" attack to our arsenal.

Comment by Random0028

Probably one of the few if not the only spells, that went from the most useless spell in ones rotation (okay fire nova, you're pretty even) to becoming the hardest hitting spell in ones artillery. It hits for ALOT. Using the Searing flames and improved lava lash talents plus flametongue weapon on offhand this just went absolutely insane on live, can onehit people with the right setup.

E: spelling, yeez this was bad.

Comment by catuti

increased CD in 4.0.1?

anyway, 10 secs cd now that there is a talent so searing totem will do one stack per second, seems like a waste of dmg

Comment by lilBuffy

Lava Lash is main attack skill for post 4.0.1 Enhancement Shamans. It may have sucked pre-4.0 but Blizzard has stacked the deck, so to speak, to ensure that Lava Lash hits like a truck.

+ 40% damage if you have Flametongue Weapon on your off-hand+ 20% damage if you have the Prime Glyph+ 30% damage if you have Improved Lava Lash+ an additional 20% per stack (max of 5 stacks) for each stack of Searing Flames on your target.

Comment by Betrugger

Using WF/FT or frostbrand/FT with frozen power seems to be the way to go.

Lava lash crits for simply MASSIVE ammounts...upwards of 30-40K when also combined with the right glyphs, talents, and totems.

Comment by zeljkosh

Great spell in cataclysm... Our main nuke and main source of burst.Ignores armor, deals 200% dmg +40% if weapon is enchanted with FT, + 20% from glyph, + 30% from imp. lava lash, and 10% for each application of Searing Flames debuff (stacks 5 times). All of this makes this spell a beast of an attack...

In pvp u wont use FT on ofhand so dmg will be lower, but you will recevie 10% when target is affected by FB debuff...

Also it benefits from mastery, making this spell very very good... Atm SS is wet noodle when compared with LL.

Our entire tree is now centered around off-hand attack, annoying but original :)

Comment by TDE156

Both Lava Lash and Stormstrike are both getting new animations in 4.0.6.

Comment by Arkhirion

We're looking at one hell of alot of damage from Lava Lash in Cataclysm. Capable of outdamaging Stormstrike and maybe even windfury procs.

Standard 200% damage.Glyphed it does 240% damage.Flametongue enchant increases it to 336% offhand weapon damage(240*1.4=336).Added to that is 30% from Improved Lava Lash adding up to 436.8% (336*1.3=436.8)The finishin touch would be the 20% per stack of Searing Flames that could potentially add another 100%. increasing it to a whopping 873.6% offhand weapon damage.

I myself am a huge fan of Dual-wielding classes, having played a rogue, fury warrior and ToT-death knight and now having a shaman at a respectable level and I must say.. this is quite the attack.

Comment by TheHandOfSeth

is still quite a big number considering it bypasses armor being an elemental damagin attack.

Are you entirely sure it is fire damage? Flametongue's Unleash Elements isn't consumed by this ability, so I assumed that it received no bonus damage. Also, if I remember correctly, I think I remember the combat log noted it as 'Physical' damage. Could just be my poor memory in that regard, however (can't test it right now, the realms are under maintenance).

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Comment by SmDshka

Some people talking about http://www.wowhead.com/spell=63374 is useful in PVE for LL damage increase, and it is fail. FB procs damage but there is no slow on raid bosses, so if there is no buff, no talent effect. And so, it's useless to take Frozen Power in PVE.Frozen Power is now new since MoP.

Comment by Pope

Ok, let's see. I typed a good calculation of Lava Lash-Damage before, but it got lost with the comment-transition on wowhead.

First of all, basics:Lava Lash is a non-normalized attack, so the Speed of the weapon directly translates into the damage of Lava Lash.The slower the weapon, the harder Lava Lash hits. Storm Strike is the same, but most other attacks from other classes are normalized at a fixed speed.

Mastery is the easiest way to increase Lava Lash-Damage, besides a weapon upgrade and more Attack Power.

Do note, however that Lava Lash is affected by the offhand-penalty, so the damage has to be cut in half.But on the other hand, it's not affected by armor, because it's fire damage.

And that's how you get some high Lava Lash-crits :D

Comment by MissRarity

Question, is it better to have my stronger weapon in my Off Hand due to this skill? as it seems smarter due to the fact that no ability's only use the main hand

Comment by Taraezor

Edit: This comment is of historical value. It is NOT current as of this patch.

Just to update the other comments a bit as Blizzard constantly updates abilities in many ways including effectiveness in a rotation:

LL is still very important in 5.3 and 5.4 but better priorities are:

(1) Elemental Mastery - a Tier 4 talent many players take(2) Ascendance - very very important to use in rotations when off cool down(3) Your Fire Totem, either a if on a boss or a big burn phase or else your standard (But if using ST then you can let it go out but ensure that buff you get from ST (and FE) never expires)(4) Your if on a boss. Don't worry about dodgy taunts these days.(5) Your Tier 6 talent(6) Lightning Bolt if on 5 stacks of (4 if you have the Tier 15 2 piece bonus)(7) Stormstrike or Windstrike(8) Lava Lash(9) I could go on but I won't lol.

As you can see. LL is important but not that important.

Comment by Gingerheart74

So, I was playing around on my Enh Shaman out in Townlong Steppes, and randomly hit a gigantic critical with this ability, over a million damage critical. I'm uncertain what caused it, as I wasn't aiming to crit this high and so was not watching what buffs I had on. I'm uploading a screenshot of my combat log, but I hit around 98k dmg with a 991k dmg overkill. I was like O.O wow.

Comment by Alayea

Lava Lash will be buffed to compensate for removal of in patch 6.0.

Speaking as a long-time enhance shaman, this is welcome news. It was a major pain having the stacks on the mob back then, and it's still something of a hassle today despite the buff being attached to the shaman instead of the mob.

Comment by heartlessnobody

neat with Echo giving charges now you can fire this twice for some hurt