242 comments:

This seriously makes me suspect that the Pandemic Story of a new possible flu, which is always out there somewhere to publicise, is just another "Health Care system is broke without government controls" charade.

Speaking of preparedness, you'd think if this was so important, Obama and the Democrat legislature would actually nominate and/or confirm people to head the CDC, NIH, Health Department and the FDA. All of these positions, three months into the Obama administration, remain vacant. Instead Obama has Napolitano and the press secretary telling us that everything's under control, while he's out playing a round of golf. That's leadership!

Actually Palladian, the secretary of Health and Human Services is pending nomination in the Senate. It's going nowhere, because the Republicans are currently fillibustering the appointment of Kathleen Sebelius.

And none of the positions you've named can be filled until the direction of HHS is in place.

We won't know what's going on until a CDC team has worked on this 60 days. In the meantime, I am skeptical that this is real. When the world's self appointed Crisis Police finally spots its Asteroid of Death approaching the Earth to wipe out all life in 36 months, then these minor league scares will pass away and we can all beg the necessary United Nations Government to mobilize and save us at any price. Think of these mere scares as exercises for new Community Organizers in training.

downtownlad is about to kill this thread with one of his patented cytokine storms of vituperative, irrelevant and embarrassing comments. Get out your masks and TamiFlu everyone, cause he sprays a lot of spittle which is an excellent way of spreading contagion!

Gibbs said the White House was “hopeful” for a vote soon for Sebelius, but Republicans have held up her nomination over concerns she failed to disclose the full amount of contributions by a doctor who performed late-term abortions.

But it has already believed to have killed more than 100 people in a neighboring country and sickened dozens of Americans -- causing the closing of schools and other public facilities in U.S. cities.

Notice that not one school or facility that has been closed due to a flu outbreak was actually named -- because there have been none in the U.S.

This is irresponsible reporting.

If pandemic preparedness was so important, why was it rolled into the stimulus bill? Why couldn't it be proposed and defended on its own? Instapundit has been harping on this subject for years now.

Many people recognize that increasing stockpiles of Tamiflu and flu vaccines is a good idea. But just because it's a good idea doesn't meant funding it through the stimulus bill was the way to go. This story highlights what the stimulus bill really was: fulfillment of everything on the left's wish list, with few if any strings attached.

He's handling the situation very competently. It's unfortunate that the money for this wasn't in the stimulus bill. Fighting pandemic flus are items that SHOULD be paid for by the federal government. Porkulus items like Social Security and Medicaid for anti-gay bigoted old people are items that should be eliminated.

And I have never fawned over Obama. And you won't be able to find one post where that is the case.

Obama is a technocrat and he actually focuses on governing, not politics. So I'm not surprised that he's handling the situation well.

We should all go read The Plague by Camus now. How do the politicians in that book react? I don't recall (mostly because I could never get through the book).

If there is a pandemic, this is a PR disaster for Republicans -- in Maine, in particular. The commercial writes itself, coffins with flu victims being buried and the good Senator's words written or spoken over the screen. Who'd vote for her?

If this is such a big event, why in the world is this administration the only government not taking preemptive steps in screening border and flight entries? Does the administration want a huge pandemic to make us all sick? Looks like they are failing to take action. I wonder why?

hdhouse - The Republicans are twisting in it, because they have only focused on politics. They don't give a shit about governing, and have not done so in a very long time.

It's all about the politics of personal destruction. Of course, some Democrats do the same thing, but not nearly to the same extent. Democrats are not afraid to incorporate Republican ideas if they are good ones.

But Republicans will oppose something, solely because a Democrat supports it. Even if the idea is supported by most non-ideological experts. Examples include funding for Pandemic flus, or even the stimulus money for that matter, or the use of torture. These really aren't controversial, but Republicans have to make everything an ideological fight, and they end looking - well they look stupid.

Just out of curiosity - if we don't have a pandemic and few or no people in the U.S. die from this, does that mean that the additional funding was in fact not needed? Or does this argument only cut one way?

I agree that Olympia Snowe comes out looking the worst. Other Republicans can pretend that they supported the flu funding, but not the rest of the stimulus package. They'd be lying of course, since they actively used Snowe to get this specific funding removed. But that argument might work with their constituents.

Well Sofa, you can say that not insuring your home was a smart idea if it doesn't end up burning down.

Or not having health insurance was smart if you don't end up getting sick.

Personally, I don't want the government gambling with my life, and I'd rather that they be prudent in insuring the country against a pandemic flu.

I also think they should invest in programs to identify meteors that will hit earth, and develop devices that could divert those meteors, since we know that earth gets hit by giant meteors every few hundred years.

Yes, and if I have a small fire in the kitchen and can put it out quickly, I wouldn't just stand there doing nothing but complaining to my spouse he didn't insure the house, "See, I told you so." There are plenty of actions the administration can be taking to protect us, yet they do nothing. Why?

Heh -- I couldn't remember which Senator did this. One is so very much like the other, except in a photograph. So I didn't name her.

The asteroids (known) that are a danger to the Earth are well known -- I believe the closest call (the asteroid moves closer to the Earth than the Moon!) is in 2020 or so? Sometime in the 20-teens? This is all a vague memory. But I also recall there is $$ in the budget for contingency planning.

Personally, I don't want the government gambling with my life, and I'd rather that they be prudent in insuring the country against a pandemic flu.

That's perfectly reasonable. But it seems to be taken on assumption that the spending in the stimulus package is the difference between one outcome and the other. Your argument doesn't say anything about this spending in particular. It's a generic argument, that could in fact be applied to every proposed spending increase, that could be employed to justify and infinite amount of spending, at least so long as the marginal utility of every additional dollar was(even theoretically) greater than zero. But that's not economically rational, it's a recipe for fiscal catastrophe. If you set the price of anything at 0, what happens to the demand?

The government should have enough stock of Tiraflu (or whatever it is called) on stock to treat the entire country. Or enough to stop a pandemic. I'm certain that statiticians and health experts know what that exact number is. From what I've read, it doesn't cost that much money. And yes, it would be stimulative, so it does belong in a stimulus bill. Certainly more stimulative than reducing the Alternative Minimum Tax.

Game, set and match. Democrats have just clinched power for 50 years.Right, because everyone knows that they made such a big deal about pandemic preparedness being important in the stimulus package! Give me a break. That package was so larded up that I doubt we'll ever know the full extent of what we're spending, and what we're spending it on -- and you expect the Democrats to coast to power over an issue that most people still don't even know exists? How close do the asteroids come to your planet?

Joan - it's the anti-science attitude. It's the creationists. It's the fundies. It's the torturists. It's the Christianists. It's the folks that want to screw everyone else in favor of the top 2%. The American people have wizened up to the GOP scams.

I oppose every single dime of education spending, including student loans. I oppose Social Security. I oppose Medicare. I oppose every dime we give to farmers in subsidies. I opposed food stamps. I oppose welfare. And yes - about 50% of our defense spending is pork.

Actually creating vaccines and other such things is generally break even at best, and unless they were already operating near or at capacity I highly doubt they would really need need to hire any new employees.

Alex,

Unless this turns into an actual pandemic in the US (i.e. people dying left and right) this will be forgotten as quickly as SARS and monkeypox. So far I think only one person in the US who actually was positive for it has been hospitalized but was described as recovering (although this may have since changed).

What I think this will really just end up highlighting is the difference in both health care and habits between the US and Mexico.

The government should have enough stock of Tiraflu (or whatever it is called) on stock to treat the entire country. Or enough to stop a pandemic. I'm certain that statiticians and health experts know what that exact number is.

Okay, granted. Now, if in fact our current stocks of Tamiflu are sufficient to prevent a pandemic of swine flu, doesn't this mean that by your own standards, the extra funding was not needed? Can we hold you to this?

I repeat the question: Why haven't Obama and the Democrat legislature nominated and/or confirmed people to head the CDC, NIH, Health Department and the FDA if they are so invested in health instead of politics?

downtownlad wrote (10:13): "But Republicans will oppose something, solely because a Democrat supports it. ... Examples include funding for Pandemic flus, or even the stimulus money for that matter, or the use of torture."

How can anyone actually contend that the only reasons for opposing Democrat positions on these issues are ideological?

Projection? Ignorance? Intolerance? All of the above?

This "pandemic" is just another potential crisis too good for the Dems to waste.

DTL, SARS was NOT a pandemic. I picked my word deliberately. Moreover the CDC isn't the only repository of medical knowledge in this country--a very good argument can be made that centralizing control in the CDC would be a fatal mistake if a real pandemic actually did occur.

Tamiflu was brought up. While there are serious doubts about it's overall effectiveness, the CDC had nothing to do with this drug--it's the product of one of those "evil" pharmaceutical companies.

"The government should have enough stock of Tiraflu (or whatever it is called) on stock to treat the entire country. Or enough to stop a pandemic. I'm certain that statiticians and health experts know what that exact number is. From what I've read, it doesn't cost that much money."

You can't even bother to look up the name of the drug? It's called TamiFlu, and you're placing ridiculous expectations on its effectiveness. So far, it seems that the current swine flu is somewhat responsive to TamiFlu, but that could quickly change, especially if large numbers of people take the drug. This could lead to strains of virus resistant to TamiFlu's mechanism of action and ultimately create a much more serious pandemic, in the same way that over-prescription and improper patient usage of antibiotics have contributed to the development of resistant strains of common bacterial pathogens. TamiFlu is also only effective if taken within about 48 hours of infection.

In short, just like the situation with hurricane Katrina, there's a very limited number of ways to prepare for natural disasters. There is no magic drug that can "stop" the spread of a disease and pouring money, in the guise of "economic stimulus" no less, does not necessary correlate to a happy outcome.

But the time for bitching is over. The Democrats can do ANYTHING THEY WANT. So put up or shut up.

The only thing the US gummint could do in the event of an actual pandemic is forbid travel, by plane or even by car, especially into or out of affected cities, with no inflow from outside the country, and even limit travel within a city, until the threat diminished. There simply ain't enough Tamiflu to go around.

All that can be done without any new funds.If it were a real pandemic, that is what would happen.

He's handling the situation very competently. It's unfortunate that the money for this wasn't in the stimulus bill. Fighting pandemic flus are items that SHOULD be paid for by the federal government. Porkulus items like Social Security and Medicaid for anti-gay bigoted old people are items that should be eliminated.

Downtownlad could disagree with his own name or the color of the sky on a cloudless day, if it antagonizes people in the process. It doesn't really have anything to do with influenza, gay marriage, Democrats or any other purported topic of contention. The only thing it has to do with is downtownlad. There's a word for this kind of person.... sociopath.

jayne_cobb - What I think this will really just end up highlighting is the difference in both health care and habits between the US and Mexico.There is a fairly good capacity in Mexico for treating contagious disease. Better than most countries. The fatalities from flu are a function of the virulence of the strain and the susceptibility of patients. Several thousand Americans die each flu outbreak. There is just so much medicine can do for certain patients, and just so much medicine can do with certain viral diseases. If the 1918 flu hit again, it would be almost as deadly, as sheer numbers overwhelmed the ability to give intensive care in hospitals to the most affected.

Nor is flu a discriminator over "habits". While it is true that close proximity of people and certain animals is the incubator of a new flu strain - no society can live without its farmers and peasants, so little can be done about that. China has tried, but they say their measures only will slightly reduce rural China and the markets as a source of new disease.But once a flu bug is on the march, and long as you share the same "habits" as Mexicans - living amongst many people and many arriving from and going to remote locations as well that pesky need to breath air in and out, you are at the same rough risk.

And the people blaming the flu spread on illegal aliens crossing the Border are mildly deranged, ignorant on epidemiology.

So let me get this straight. Dems are going to blame Republicans for removing something from a bill that they then overwhelmingly voted for?

Gotcha.

This is like watching the aftermath of a knife fight where the two fighters, having cut each other to ribbons to the point that they're bleeding to death, lay in their blood flinging accusations as to who his responsible for their respective predicaments.

Having said that, it's nice to see that the Dems have their priorities in order! Let's take advantage of a potentially deadly crisis to stick the knife in again!

Regarding habits I was mainly referring to the obsession with cleanliness a great many Americans have (e.g. the habit of many people to carry around antibacterial hand wash in a purse or on a keychain).

Perhaps it's just anecdotal observations that don't apply elsewhere but it has seemed to me that a good portion of the US has become incredibly afraid of even risking disease as a result of sensationalist journalism.

Read the friggin' article pls. Google Bush cuts CDC and you get 8 years of budget cuts. Add 2+2.

I think I'll visit this blog again in about 2 hours. In that time the GOP idiocy will have found 90 reasons why this isn't their fault (like nothing ever is). Perhaps they will actually read up on this particular variant of swine flu to see why it isn't like the others. God forbid they don't stumble upon the statement put out by the CDC and World Health that this is already PAST the containment stage.

My husband is working on simulating infectious outbreak in major cities, including the spread of infection, distribution of drugs, etc., distribution points and weaknesses with death counts by demographic.

I joked with him about doing the sim with the infection turning people to zombies and including gun ownership in the mix.

"At this point, I would not put out a travel restriction or recommendation against coming to the United States," said Richard Besser, acting head of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. )

Hoosier Daddy said... (God forbid they don't stumble upon the statement put out by the CDC and World Health that this is already PAST the containment stage.) Obama has already assured us that there is nothing to worry about. You really need to get on board with the program and quit it with the fearmongering."

Sometimes Hoosier the depth of what you don't know anything about is staggering. You have no idea what containment means in this mix do you? Or what it means to be "past containment". So it is fearmongering then to write something that plays to your ignorance.

I'll come back in a couple hours and see what other gunk washes ashore here.

Wait - all weekend long I've been hearing, "Sure, we'll concede that waterboarding gleaned information that helped avert more terrorist attacks. But there's no reason to think we couldn't have gotten that information with less coercive means."

For the sake of consistency, at least, will you lefties concede that theres's no logical reason to think we'd be any better prepared for a pandemic if we'd been throwing money at the CDC for the last 8 years?

but this will be another news media - government complex Chicken Little story ... like the previous swine flu scare, or alar, or the cranberry scare, or red dye #2, or silicone implants, or saccharine, or ...Oh, forget it, the list is approaching infinity.

36,000 Americans die every year from flu related causes. we won't be able to see this one above the statistical noise - after the panic is over that is.

GOP/Bush White House not giving 900 million for Pandemic Preparedness is a political canard. This story is a shell game that given the current outbreak of swine flu can be used as a political wedge to further this current White House's aims for blaming the ills of the world on the previous administration, but lo and behold, Mr. Barely and his band of merry men will swoop right in and fix it all; with prosecutions and released memos.

Government already has an obligation to promote the health of it's people. Health issues like this are exclusive of a 900 million dollar injection into a pet project fund called pandemic preparedness. If one wasn't in place before the 900 million dollar request then that is the real story, not this pile of horseshit that is now being placed at the doorstep of Bush Administration is meant to distract away from the fact that Mr. Barely's administration couldn't and didn't predict a Swine Flu outbreak. Where was CDC on this one? Where was Mr. Barely's proactive stance on Pandemic Preparedness? The whole thing is a Red Herring and intellectually stupid people like hdhouse and DTL run around waving their arms screaming into the night about how terrible it is that nearly a billion dollars didn't get spent on Pandemic Preparedness and they are so outraged and so shocked and so emotively in despair over the whole thing. It's Kabuki, all of it.

Clean your hands, don't eat pork for a while, wear a mask if you are so inclined and go about your business. If you feel funny, hit the emergency room and get checked. If the illegal aliens can do it, so can you.

From the 2007 Budget for the CDC " In FY 2006, CDC will invest $200 million in emergency funding to ...the HHS Pandemic Influenza Plan. The FY 2007 budget requests $188 million in CDC to enhance our pandemic preparedness. ....The reduction in overall pandemic funding is due to one-time resources provided in FY 2006 for CDC laboratories and the advanced development of rapid testing."

Combined with the 300 million the FDA spent in 2007 on pandemic preparations. That's over 700 million dollars spent in 2006-2007. So what exactly was the CDC supposed to do with another 900 million they never requested?

Actually the LA Times just pointed out that during the swine flu panic of 1976 only 1 American died from the flu whereas 25 died from the vaccine.

My rather vague memory (I was 16 at the time) was that the link between Guillain-Barre syndrome and the vaccine was never shown to rise above statistical noise. 40M people received the vaccine (I don't recall if I did), and 500 then developed G-B (I did not), and of those 25 died (Not me!). Something like that, according to a cursory web search. Typically 1 or 2 out of 100000 develop G-B syndrome, that seems order or magnitude similar to the numbers that developed it post-vaccination in 1976.

I just got back off of Google and there's no such announcement that swine flu is "past the containment stage." The Secretary General of the UN seems to have gone a bit overboard, but as of a half hour ago WHO hasn't even raised the warning from the current Level 3 that it had established for avian flu and the acting head of the CDC has been at pains to get people to calm down.

So far this looks to me like an ordinary -- albeit late in the season -- flu outbreak. Although the swine flu is spreading pretty rapidly, it doesn't look like a pandemic just yet. It's pretty much confined to (1) Mexico; (2) places where Mexicans, legal or undocumented, get to; (3) people who have recently been to Mexico; or (4) people who interact closely with people in category 3 (e.g., teachers and classmates of kids who went to Mexico on spring break). Worth keeping an eye on, but lets try to keep down the foolishness, shall we?

Mind you, I'm all for CDC getting all the money they need.

I might also add that my take right now is that B. H. Obama is letting his experts apply their expertise. If this holds, then coupled with the rescue of Captain Phillips I'm seeing a good sign.

"I just got back off of Google and there's no such announcement that swine flu is "past the containment stage." The Secretary General of the UN seems to have gone a bit overboard, but as of a half hour ago WHO hasn't even raised the warning from the current Level 3 that it had established for avian flu and the acting head of the CDC has been at pains to get people to calm down."

Thanks for pointing this out. The WHO doesn't seem particularly concerned at this point. But as with climate change, the douchebag Democrats (a separate category from the non-douchebag Democrats, by the way) are determined to take advantage of a real and complicated scientific question for political purposes. The Democrat party cares about science as much as it cares about black Americans, gay Americans and the rest of their political pawns: as a means of increasing their power. And they prey on the public's fear and ignorance of science to achieve their goals. I mean "past the containment stage"? I know hdhouse is working with a spongiform brain, but come on!

Is there a way we can quarantine the rabid, conspiracy theorists like DTL, house, Jeremy, and others. This should be done in the national interest, as a pandemic of untold proportions could break out. Hey, maybe put a quarantine center in the Hamptons.

Since they have no public housing, homeless shelters, welfare offices, or other government accutrements, it would be in the interest of the common good.

DDD: But those big evils bullies (who are in the extreme minority) were able stop pademnic preparedness? ..

Not paying close attention, are you? 1) Republicans have shattered all records for filibusters since being returned to the minority. So, 60 votes are needed to overcome Republican Filibusters, not a simple majority.

2) A group of Republicans and right wing Democrats withheld their votes until funding was cut from the bill.

3) They succeeded in cutting funding from the stimulus bill, including pandemic flu preparedness funding.

They got what they wanted and the country is less prepared as a result. That's a fact.

And, if this thing does become epidemic or pandemic, it's another punch to the nuts for the economy.

Pathetic partisan, gamesmanship on the dems part. But what else is new? That's all they got. Knee jerk finger pointing to deflect their increasingly erractic rule. I suppose that will also be the republican's fault when people die of reactions to the tamiflu shots. Any stick to beat the republicans will do I guess.

Truly amazing, AL. You can trash the GOP one hand and assert the primacy of government on the other and not see the logical disconnect between the two.

Is government the answer or is it not?

Does it save us from emergencies, care for us, and change our nappies?

Or is it a pernicious beast that only requires the wrong party in power to turn on us and destroy?

If that's the case, then you'd better figure out how not to let that happen should public opinion or majority sentiment change. As it will do. Seeing as we have a democracy subject to the will of the people.

Then why is it called swine flu? Does it come from birds, cows, sheep, politicians? Or is it a much catchier title than house flu, alphaliberal flu, Jeremy flu, DTL flu. Maybe PMS, golf, elitism, liberalism, and waterboarding were already taken.

Rocketeer says some odd things: For the sake of consistency, at least, will you lefties concede that theres's no logical reason to think we'd be any better prepared for a pandemic if we'd been throwing money at the CDC for the last 8 years?Why the hell would we say that? You don't even bother making an argument, just restate rhetoric.

And, ain't it funny how righties think "throwing money at it" works for the military but nothing else?

p.s. I don't think waterboarding "works". Non-sadistic methods have been proven effective over the decades.

You can trash the GOP one hand and assert the primacy of government on the other and not see the logical disconnect between the two..

(I asserted "the primacy of government???" Really?)

Here, I'll try to make it simpler for you:

a) The GOP is the anti-government party. They are deeply invested in proving to us government can't work and they made their best case over the past 8 years (see Katrina, Iraq, volcano monitoring, etc).

b) Government CAN work to serve people and has many times in my lifetime.

c) But we should not expect government to work if we keep people intent on proving "a" around.

Nichols' column provides just one more example of GOP ideology leaving the American people more vulnerable.

The only thing the US gummint could do in the event of an actual pandemic is forbid travel, by plane or even by car, especially into or out of affected cities, with no inflow from outside the country, and even limit travel within a city, until the threat diminished. .

I read The Great Influenza a few years ago, and it talked about how a few small towns basically posted sentries outside of the town and wouldn’t let anyone in or out. It worked.

I think it’s pathetic that people are getting political about this, but I’m not surprised. If a hurricane can be blamed on a politician, why not infectious disease!

Money to Pandemic prep might be great, but that doesn’t mean it belongs in a stimulus package. To me, this bit proves how very far the “stimulus” bill strayed from it’s stated path. Which, of course, I already knew.

"3) They succeeded in cutting funding from the stimulus bill, including pandemic flu preparedness funding.

They got what they wanted and the country is less prepared as a result. That's a fact."

Oh, bull.

How much preparation happens in three months? Would the money have been received yet? Would it have been applied to anything yet? No, it wouldn't. We'd be no more "prepared" if the funding was granted three months ago than if Congress pushed it through tomorrow.

I mentioned a few comments ago that my husband is working on an aspect of this exact thing. The proposal was put through last September or October,(under Bush) the demo, the parameters... that all took a couple months. The funding? I'm not sure when they got the funding approved. The delivery date? Hey, I can ask when they're supposed to deliver if you're interested. I would imagine the contract goes until next fall, at which time everyone is hoping for a second contract.

So figure his company delivers. Then what? At that point the government uses the *tool* that it contracted, to evaluate the plans and systems they have for dealing with infectious pandemics... I don't imagine that's the chore of an afternoon either.

In other words... funding three months ago has ZERO influence on the readiness we experience today.

It might influence preparedness two years from now *if* the money was spent on effective programs. If it was spent on infrastructure as a one time expenditure on facilities, then it might be more than two years.

Methadras - Clean your hands, don't eat pork for a while, wear a mask if you are so inclined and go about your business.Catching flu is not generally a function of washing hands, as it's spread is almost always aerosol.

Not eating pork to prevent you from getting swine flu as not eating venezuelan horses prevents the spread of venezuelan equine virus.

Masks have limited effectiveness agaanst timy flu virus smaller than the holes in the mask. Some, as when the virus is attached to a dust mote or a relatively speaking - huge- microglobule of someone elses snot sneezed 200 yards away, 10 minutes earlier. But help somewhat in knocking down aerosol of an infected person caughing or sneezing into the mask - which is at odds with most people's behavior - they lift the mask up when sneezing or coughing. And in the big scheme of things, flu spreads so easily that it is like constructing a levee on your riverfrontage, while several neighbors don't. In a flood, the water ends up on your place, anyways.

"Clean your hands, don't eat pork for a while, wear a mask if you are so inclined and go about your business. If you feel funny, hit the emergency room and get checked. If the illegal aliens can do it, so can you."

Guys, this was clearly meant as sarcasm as the last sentence in this statement was overtly obvious of that. I guess I'll need to put a sarcasm tag from now on for those that don't get it.

"I read The Great Influenza a few years ago, and it talked about how a few small towns basically posted sentries outside of the town and wouldn’t let anyone in or out. It worked."

I don't think it was the flu, it was something else (involving children being unable to breathe... but way back then) but my Mom was telling me that individual farms were quarantined, people were so afraid of it. The dead weren't even allowed brought to the church yard to be buried, so some farms in the area have small plots where they buried the children.

OMG again Peter. There are a number of strains of the flu virus, some come natural from birds (bird flu) and some from pigs (swine flu) and others show up here and there.

This particular flu is a mixture of 2 different strains of swine flu and 1 bird flu and one other...a hodgepodge so to speak. We don't seem to be naturally resistent to it as it is a new batch, hence the concern.

Flu is a virus that attacks through the respiratory system (hands to mouth area or nose area and inhaled). It doesn't come in through the stomach and unless you eat raw virus carrying pork or chickens, and smear the raw meat around your nose and sniff it, you don't catch it.

Whats maddening about the latest democratic talking point is how quickly it will be abandoned once the panic has dissipated. Common sense scrutiny tells us even had the money been alloted in the so-called stimulus bill, there is no assurance it would even have been allocated in time. Stupid, stupid liberals and their dumb rhetoric, that's what we need an antidote for!

Here's a challenge to the conservatives and Ayn Rand acolytes:Explain to us how the free market will protect us from swine flu epidemic. How does your "no/very limited government" ideology serve the people in this case?

(2) If the smarties on the left wanted pandemic preparedness that much, they could have fought to save it, and tried to trim the fat elsewhere. Geez, my senators pushed through a proposal to put a stupid trolly (that nobody will ride) in downtown Milwaukee at a cost of $ 91 Million. Cut that dumb idea and you are 10% the way there already!

The dems rolled on pandemic preparedness because they really didn't give a crap about it. It was a bargaining chip.

First of all, I already know this. Second of all, out of my entire statement you more or less didn't address or refute it so if my bit of sarcasm is all you were able to critique then I'm not the one who is an idiot. But then again watching you kneel at the altar of your ideology in the way you have in this blog topic only illustrates what idiotic lure your willing to sink your lips into.

"Obama must occasional view the populace, catch sight (or in this case "wind") of the ilk of Methadras and scream "oh the humanity"."

Oh yes, he looks down on us ilky types like the lofty, bland, empty suit that he is and would rather scream, "Oh the huge manitee" instead, while he lovingly strokes the top of your head as you sit at his footsteps to his throne staring up at him waiting for your next bone of appreciation.

Dems "rolled" on pandemic funding because that was the price that Susan Collins demanded for her vote to overcome the Republican filibuster:

Susan Collins: COLLINS: There's funding to help improve our preparedness for a pandemic flu. There is funding to help improve cyber security. What does that have to do with an economic stimulus package? [CNN, 1/31/09]

COLLINS: I think everybody in the room is concerned about a pandemic flu. But does it belong in this bill? Should we have $870 million in this bill? No. We should not. [MSNBC, 2/5/09]

"Here's a challenge to the conservatives and Ayn Rand acolytes:Explain to us how the free market will protect us from swine flu epidemic. How does your "no/very limited government" ideology serve the people in this case?"

Because it will assuredly kill off a lot of people like you, therefore making a more pleasant and more efficient nation.

Now, explain to me how your "Fuck me in the ass again, Daddy!" government-lover ideology protect us from any epidemic? Socialism is not a magic talisman against disease. And even if we support a highly-funded CDC, NIH etc, does that mean that we have to support all the rest of your stupid, expensive bullshit? Did you people ever stop to think that maybe it's not an either-or situation?

And I wasn't aware that we had any Randians here... Could it be that you're just incapable of seeing anything except in absolutist binary terms?

Jesus, why can't we have smarter, more honest liberals than this pathetic gaggle? We've got the senile pants shitter, the copy/paster, the psychotic faggot, and the defeated Hillary lover without his own tag. That's the best you guys can offer us?

Alpha, my dear, you wrote (But the important thing here is for you to attack me, I know) . You are aware that in memory you have done nothing other than attack conservatives. You are accusing others of doing what you yourself have consistently done. Find me a post where you were not on the attack. Find one. And then tell me out of how many posts that one might be. Don't be so transparent in your hypocrisy, child. It isn't a good strategy.

Explain to us how the free market will protect us from swine flu epidemic. How does your "no/very limited government" ideology serve the people in this case?"

It doesn't. Because in reality these fast sweeping viral contagions are meant to attack the weakest among us and if you think government can fully immunize or administer anti-viral on the scope that is expected from any pandemic much less a 1913 flu outbreak then your question is as stupid as the one who posed it. Smaller government is about minimizing the intrusion of onerous government in the lives of it's citizens. However, government at some point has a vested interest in the health of it's citizens, but they work for us, not the other way around.

Private citizens should be responsible for their own health, safety, and welfare. If there is a fear of some sort of contagion, then they should go out and buy the appropriate immunization or with the help of government to some degree be able to attain it. This notion that conservatives or Ayn Rand acolytes are anti-government is a ridiculous assertion by leftists like you that have no clue or idea about conservatism or objectivism.

Anti-government conservatives are, in my opinion misguided, sometimes ill-informed, but well-intentioned. Limited government conservatives, which makes up a lot of the conservatives I know, see a role for government, but not the one it's taken on. Certainly they have a role in watching out for anything that would affect the populace they are Constitutionally obligated to protect, but the methods by which they seek to enact that protection or how intrusive it becomes is what is usually requires critique. Private industry and government can come together to solve these problems whereas private citizens do not have that immediate cohesion to put together a strategy to effectively deal with something like a flu pandemic.

But when government and it's departments and agencies go outside of their boundaries to dictate regulations, rules, and laws that are deemed unnecessary, redundant, or go against the will of the people, then you will have a problem.

Hey, AL, thanks for the Susan Collins quotes. She seems like a smart cookie.

What *did* either of those things have to do with economic stimulous?

They didn't.

And they didn't belong in that bill. It was supposed to be about stimulating the economy. Why is this difficult for you, AL? Granted, it's pretty clear to a lot of people that it really didn't have anything at all to do with stimulating the economy other than hope that something good might happen by accident if only enough money was thrown willy-nilly at the problem.

Nor would funding in the stimulous bill for *any* problem we face today have made any difference at all *today* and certainly no funding to deal with a pandemic would have yet born any sort of fruit. There hasn't been time.

I seem to recall from The Great Influenza that masks did not stop people from getting sick. I see the Mexico City folks wearing them, though. Is it just because that was a particularly virulent strain, or because the masks are better now or what?

another rich point is after liberals have spent years demonizing the pharmacuetical companys as the moustache twirling villains they have no trouble shreiking "help me daddy!" when a flu scare hits. I wonder how much money in R/D the "evil" drug companies shelled out so we could see AL live to vilify them another day?

Dare To Be A Dolt - "...another rich point is after liberals have spent years demonizing the pharmacuetical companys as the moustache twirling villains they have no trouble shreiking "help me daddy!" when a flu scare hits."

Right.

We need to help shore up those drug companies (especially their massive profits and long-term patents) who are just looking out for their fellow Americans.

dirt bags like you can't get your mind around the fact its not a zero sum game if the drug companys make money. But then again you are dumbass liberal without a clue as to how markets work in the first place

What *did* either of those things have to do with economic stimulous?.

My guess: They would pay people for doing work, which would pump money into the economy. Making serum, making plans, educating, etc...

or do you think pouring concrete is the only thing that qualifies as "stimulus" spending?

Mind you, I don't think most con's have the sightest clue of the rationale behind the stimulus: to try to keep the economy moving by making up for SOME (nowhere near all) of the decline in private spending. To reduce the amount of economic contraction.

The most interesting science class I took in college had a text called Water Quality in a Stressed Environment and it was all about the water cycle, and how pollutants can enter, and how they can be mitigated. Absolutely fascinating.

Dare To Be A Dolt - Here's something relating to your theory that "the fact its not a zero sum game if the drug companys (companies) make money."

Medicaid and Medicare, Prescription Drugs Report:

"Pharmaceutical industry profits increased by over $8 billion in the first six months after the Medicare drug plan went into effect.

The Republican Congress passed a Medicare drug bill that put the interests of the drug companies first and seniors last.

According to the analysis, the Medicare drug program contributed to this surge in drug profits through a combination of three factors:

1. The failure of private plans to negotiate low prices

2. The elimination of billions in rebates paid by pharmaceutical companies for drugs used by low income beneficiaries

3. The increased sales by drug manufacturers due to the Medicare subsidy.

The high prices under the Medicare program have resulted in billions of dollars of wasted taxpayer funds.

At the bidding of the big drug companies and their friends in Congress, this law was specifically written to prohibit Medicare from negotiating for lower prices even though a similar bargaining system has worked well in the Veteran’s Administration for years.

Methadras said... "AlphaLiberal said...But when government and it's departments and agencies go outside of their boundaries to dictate regulations, rules, and laws that are deemed unnecessary, redundant, or go against the will of the people, then you will have a problem."

The will of which people? the minority who so clearly got their butt whipped last november? we are supposed to follow the lead of the minority here? what in the world are you talking about?

ah yes, the dullard brings up medicare, yet another failed federal government enterprise. We must always rememember back in 1965when it was enacted, that program was supposed to be self supporting, limited program to handle the truly needy and handicapped. Instead it has grown into a enormous entitlement that will be going bust in a few years when the baby boomers get there. And yet we want to let the federal govt. take over the rest of healthcare? Only a liberal could possibly be that stupid as to want that.

It's a common meme on the Left these days; any Republican coming out against any "science" spending in the Spendulus bill is "anti-science". Steve Mirsky in Scientific American went on a tear against McCain and Palin about their objection to volcano monitoring funds in the Spendulus as having nothing to do with economic stimulus.

I know it sounds funny now, but I actually used to think of Liberals as the smart ones. Were so many of them always this dishonest and dumb or is it something I just started noticing? (well, several years ago I started noticing actually)

Wow, I thought this place had more logical commenters than others on the web. This thread has displayed some weak thinking and analysis.

For example, this event is either dangerous, in which case the administration should be taking action (which it is currently not), or it is not dangerous, in which case the argument about funding not allocated in February (and would not even have been spent between then and now) is a moot point.

Second, regarding government being involved with disease control, of course it should be, it is a national defense issue. The questions are what should be the objectives, and how big should be the funding? That we have a government that has wasted trillions on non-critical national defense issues has made it harder to fund areas such as this. The insurance analogy applies; when you only have the funds for immediate needs and risks, the insurance to protect against theoretical future risks go unfunded.

We are out of money, we can't fund everything. It is obviously time we get our priorities straight. I actually agree with what downtownlad said regarding some of those funding (and not funding) priorities. That said, I think the argument attempting to blame Republicans is incredibly disingenuous and is completely lacking in logic. It is truly unbelievable some people can warp their personal reality to believe such a thing.

Babsheep brings new cluelessnesss to bear: this event is either dangerous, in which case the administration should be taking action (which it is currently not),So, the White House held a press conference yesterday with the head of Homeland Security and CDC and others. They are informing the public. They have declared a medical emergency and are distributing limited amounts of vaccine. They are coordinating with other nations.

In what alternate universe is this not taking action??

Bizarre.-----------Anthony: It's a common meme on the Left these days; any Republican coming out against any "science" spending in the Spendulus bill is "anti-science".No, you've got it wrong. For example, the Bush Regime went on an anti-science tear and politicized scientific findings to make them comport to Republican ideology.

(Hoosier, Daddy, do you even understand how a small handful of Senators can stop bills from passing?

Sounds like you don't)

No Alpha, I am well aware of how a filibuster works. The point that you consistently miss is that your party has controlled Congress since 2006 and secured an even higher majority in the last election not to mention winning the Presidency with a supposed mandate. If you can't sway another 2 fucking Senators to your side of the fence to break a filibuster than that doesn't speak well for your side.