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I tell you what's worrying: the coalescing of a certain brand of western liberalism with the exclusively progressive aspects of the Sikh faith, that conveniently eschews the complex and grey areas of Sikh philosophy. It's practically a forcible rewriting of our history. There's something quite insidious transpiring right under our noses.

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Guest Jacfsing2

Guest Jacfsing2

Hopefully our people don't get into the same collapse the Hindu Kahashatriya people did where all they did was nothing. (Daas may be ignorant due to having not knowing many Sikh people, but what percent actually makes Pakhand in the Bhangra crowd).

I tell you what's worrying: the coalescing of a certain brand of western liberalism with the exclusively progressive aspects of the Sikh faith, that conveniently eschews the complex and grey areas of Sikh philosophy. It's practically a forcible rewriting of our history. There's something quite insidious transpiring right under our noses.

I believe this process started during colonialism. Anglos pretty quickly started to emphasise their perceived analogous relationship between Sikhs and Hindus as similar to that of Protestants and Roman Catholics. Many prominent people amongst our lot brought into this hook, line and sinker. And so began this strange relationship where influential apnay projected Sikhi through the lens of their imperial masters creating 'Sikhism'. So this is no new process but the culmination of a process that has been going on for at least a century.

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Jagraj bhai ji (of BoS) points out that Anglos played some weird Jedi mind tricks on our lot (like 'Sikhs don't preach and convert!") and we quickly brought into it despite our own Sikh culture and history clearly being the very opposite direction. It's the same with all the 'race' theory crap our people brought into. I mean it so obviously goes against Sikh conceptualisations of Sikh society but many of our lot jumped on it because it made them feel 'special'. It's really cringeworthy to see how our lot are so easy to manipulate like this. And the other side must be in hysterics at our gullibility (I don't know about half devil but 'half child' for real!)

We're only seeing people starting to question a lot of obvious bull5hit put in our heads now. When any outsiders (like the English) can come in and in effect set the very fundamentals of our faith, and that too for decades/centuries, we're clearly in deep trouble and missing something VERY important.

How many things that we consider as Sikh are actually Anglo additions or influence? Like the whole Charitrio Pakyaan prudery! Given this, are we really surprised that we still have hordes of apnay that think that Sikhi is somehow in complete alignment with western liberal thought. Though I should point out that the other extreme of narrow minded clannishness isn't much better of an option long-term either.

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I believe this process started during colonialism. Anglos pretty quickly started to emphasise their perceived analogous relationship between Sikhs and Hindus as similar to that of Protestants and Roman Catholics. Many prominent people amongst our lot brought into this hook, line and sinker. And so began this strange relationship where influential apnay projected Sikhi through the lens of their imperial masters creating 'Sikhism'. So this is no new process but the culmination of a process that has been going on for at least a century.

It explains a lot. Especially the subtle sidelining of Dasam Granth.

The Uncle Toms in our community (more so the apparently smart, younger generation) have fallen for this hook, line, and sinker. It's like a Diet Sikhi version of the faith that's being peddled; a watered-down interpretation that's filtered exclusively through Western thought. Why are our bhandars doing the other side's work for them when they should be rallying against it? Is it really so basic as throwing out centuries of quite nuanced and considerate tradition for something that's less of a hassle to digest and follow, regardless of whether it's rooted in any genuine precedence? We're a cheap, shallow people, and it disgusts me. Bunch of mugs.

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The Uncle Toms in our community (more so the apparently smart, younger generation) have fallen for this hook, line, and sinker. It's like a Diet Sikhi version of the faith that's being peddled; a watered-down interpretation that's filtered exclusively through Western thought. Why are our bhandars doing the other side's work for them when they should be rallying against it? Is it really so basic as throwing out centuries of quite nuanced and considerate tradition for something that's less of a hassle to digest and follow, regardless of whether it's rooted in any genuine precedence? We're a cheap, shallow people, and it disgusts me. Bunch of mugs.

That's also a long term consequence of the post-annexation 'dumbing down' of Sikhs through the newly introduced 'british educational models'. I mean they either hung, imprisoned or interned any freedom loving free thinkers and put more conformist types on a pedestal for the masses.

It gets hard to even blame people for being mugs when they've been led for centuries by people who've compromised themselves. What can we expect under those circumstances?

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i thought sikhi was a way to god not to live in a time bubble .Must not use technogy watch football and live in a mud hut to be religiously cleansed.I want the happy things in life not a boring existence

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i thought sikhi was a way to god not to live in a time bubble .Must not use technogy watch football and live in a mud hut to be religiously cleansed.I want the happy things in life not a boring existence

being a sikh is very interesting you learn masses of different languages to communicate with others, you socialise with people and help the unfortunate instead of wasting time sitting in front of a box which hynotises you and indoctrinates your mind to consume more and destroy the planet . Sikhi is timeless just like God , football as a formal sport is only about one hundred years old and TV only just over 60 years , do you think people didn't have fun or happiness before ? Just use your talents and body in a positive, life-enhancing way , become skilled in martial arts , physically stronger /faster , challenge yourself . Sports on TV and the other programming is designed to brainwash and anaethetise humans so they don't notice the shackles being put on them mentally , finanacially and physically. Be awake , watch sports , play sports , use tech but be aware and in control

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I feel what you are saying but surely the coalescing of abrahamic dogmatism is just as much as a threat?

The thing is dogmatism isn't the exclusive preserve of the Abrahamic faiths. It's human nature that's afforded a certain type of legitimacy by religious conviction (I'm not saying it's right), in my opinion. Christianity, Judaism, etc., weren't in existence when Hinduism was decreeing who was pure and unpure based on their social status, etc. That's the worst form of dogma.

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I think we're forgetting one important thing here : The mind condition of normal humans . Unless you're sant, we're all stuck in 5 vikaars and its various manifestations.

In this day and age, it becomes tough to be gursikh with rehat and not to waver , because there's more people out there to waver you and less to keep you stable. Friends these days would rather offer you alcohol and help you "try it" rather than tell you "don't drink/smoke bro, its not good for health". All of this passes in name of 'punjabi culture' and peer pressure .

I myself have at times wavered. Maya puts its very strange magnetic effect on people, its hard to describe . So keeping all the "fun" aside (gidda, bhangra, drinks, parties) and expecting them to live a purer , elevated lifestyle and where fruits of it are not foreseen .Most people are simply not ready for that !

We would rather get immediate short-lived joy from the aforementioned things rather than doing bhagti and rehatvaan jeevan and promise of "forever-lasting parmanand". Its hard for most of us to believe in, unfortunately

PS: BTW, its not just sikhs, almost every other religion is facing same in modern day society. I keep coming across swamis, mullahs and pastors who keep complaining of how their flock don't follow it anymore !

CURE : Wet clay can be fashioned easily, if you try to alter a baked pot, it will break, but it can't be changed. Kids are the only place you can sensibly invest your time in. Don't expect change from grown ups ! I have personally seen kids raised proper gursikh life and they're amritdhari and living modern day lifestyle side by side and there's no conflict ! these kids don't waver.

True, but it had genuine precedence in scriptures which definitely were as old as the hills. The Brahmins may have collated and enforced a set of teachings relatively recently, but those teachings originate from a prior period. The Brahmins can claim they "only" meant to document various practices, but its purpose was more than that: to allow them dominance over a social hierarchy. My original assertion stands: dogma is human nature lent conviction through theology.

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I think we're forgetting one important thing here : The mind condition of normal humans . Unless you're sant, we're all stuck in 5 vikaars and its various manifestations.

In this day and age, it becomes tough to be gursikh with rehat and not to waver , because there's more people out there to waver you and less to keep you stable. Friends these days would rather offer you alcohol and help you "try it" rather than tell you "don't drink/smoke bro, its not good for health". All of this passes in name of 'punjabi culture' and peer pressure .

I myself have at times wavered. Maya puts its very strange magnetic effect on people, its hard to describe . So keeping all the "fun" aside (gidda, bhangra, drinks, parties) and expecting them to live a purer , elevated lifestyle and where fruits of it are not foreseen .Most people are simply not ready for that !

We would rather get immediate short-lived joy from the aforementioned things rather than doing bhagti and rehatvaan jeevan and promise of "forever-lasting parmanand". Its hard for most of us to believe in, unfortunately

PS: BTW, its not just sikhs, almost every other religion is facing same in modern day society. I keep coming across swamis, mullahs and pastors who keep complaining of how their flock don't follow it anymore !

CURE : Wet clay can be fashioned easily, if you try to alter a baked pot, it will break, but it can't be changed. Kids are the only place you can sensibly invest your time in. Don't expect change from grown ups ! I have personally seen kids raised proper gursikh life and they're amritdhari and living modern day lifestyle side by side and there's no conflict ! these kids don't waver.

Baljit SIngh (BOS) put it like this : SIkhi is like licking a stone , for many there is no reward of sweet taste but that doesn't mean don't try to do your best to keep rehit . The rewards will come ...

I find that those kids who get sikhi into the hearts and bones will not waver as adult because it is so enmeshed with their personalities and outlook and if they have been taught well it will be unconsciously present , so no haumai about it .

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Mathematical truth is dogma. True some theological traditions present things as absolutes. However dharmic religions don't really do that, there are not absolutes. I personally think abrahamic lean more towards this as in those traditions the idea of divine revelation is central. Within sikhi bani, is written in a poetic form and set to raags, which acts as a inbuilt check and balance against absolutism and dogmatism

Really interesting points, particularly your first assertion. Are you viewing the term dogma as a pejorative? The word itself perhaps does lend itself, quite naturally, to a sense of inflexibility, but surely mathematical dogma is fact, as opposed to the other kind, which is an interpretation based on individual (or collective), personal judgement? I guess I should amend my definition of dogma to a narrower version in regards to the concept of faith, and just leave maths out of it, lol.

Could you expand on your idea of poetry and raags being safeguards against misinterpretation?

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and the mover of pieces is the great waheguru 😊
Gurbani says "in his house is forever justice"
I remember reading an article on world wars and a line which I will never forget "... the world powers were pushed into the war by some unseen forces..." and we know that force is waheguru .