Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by Drew S.

I’m sure they would say the same about you. The fundamental problem is both groups don’t understand each other. It takes all sorts to make the country successful.

The fundamental issue has nothing to do with understanding one another, it has to do with understanding reality vs BS. Remember, people who watch Faux know less about the news than people that watch no news at all. And that is today's Republican party.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

I’m sure they would say the same about you. The fundamental problem is both groups don’t understand each other. It takes all sorts to make the country successful.

Oh, I'm pretty sure both sides understand each other.

For the broad majority both sides underestimate that we are working from the same set of values, the coefficient weighting is just different. Conservatives weight "freedom to" higher than "freedom from" while liberals do the opposite, just like always, and I'm sure that comes down to simple wiring differences and the influence of our mentors.

But there's a cancer growing on the right that has no left equivalent -- or in any case the difference is between millions on the right and dozens, maybe, on the left. And that cancer is big enough and strong enough now that the mainstream right cowers in fear before it, and A. Dolt Sh-tler road it to the White House.

These are not equivalents at this time. American politics and culture are way, way out of balance, with a moderate left and a radical right and then some moderate right cowards who fluff the radical right. The right loves their ideology more than they love America -- they will immolate America just to achieve their ideological ends. That's an existential threat to the Founders' vision. So, no, I'm not going to play kissy face with them, not that they would compromise anyway.

Conservatives of conscience should be fighting them even harder than liberals, because it's conservatism that will bear the stigma of these tin star fascists when the fever breaks. Have you met this country? It overcompensates. The backlash against the far right, when it comes, is going to make the 60s look like Fin de Siecle Vienna. It's going to be so overboard I'm going to have to become a conservative to fight the rot on the other side.

It's a book of our true stories
True stories that can't be denied
It's more than true it actually happened
We're coming rougher every time

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

You have been trained well. "I don't like people telling me what to do so I'm disbanding the police."

And when the police are gone the criminals just walk all over you.

Oh, but it was your choice!

Government isn't the only enemy out there. There are always two beasts prowling -- the strong and the community will. Freedom's just another word for using each to keep the other at bay.

Democratic rule is the tyranny of the majority; rule by the rich is totalitarian plutocracy. When they reside in the same people, as they have been trending towards since Saint Ronnie, it's fascism. You've been wound up as a toy to burn with rage against one of the two forces which, if kept in tension, ensure our freedom by negating each other's drive to exploit us. By cutting the tendons of the former you are ensuring domination by the latter, and you call that "liberty" because the 1%'s think tanks and pundits have been churning out propaganda 24/7 for the last 50 years to turn your resentment into Useful Idiocy.

I'm not asking you to love my side. I'm asking you to take your first clear-eyed look at your side.

They are not your friends.

We're still not connecting. I'm willing to chalk it up to my lack of skill to convey the point I'm trying to convey, and leave it at that.

That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by SJHovey

We're still not connecting. I'm willing to chalk it up to my lack of skill to convey the point I'm trying to convey, and leave it at that.

I'm sure my snottiness isn't helping. But I did think I had understood your point. I'm just not accepting it. I think it's manufactured. But not by you; I'm sure you are sincere. You've just been weaponized by people who will hurt you and your kids, and that blows.

It's a book of our true stories
True stories that can't be denied
It's more than true it actually happened
We're coming rougher every time

Well, he's getting more saavy at this. Last year he would have simply claimed 10 players was the largest NFL team delegation to make a trip to the White House. This year he avoids the embarrassment of the pathetic showing and at the same time keeps the useful idiots fired up.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by aparch

Lies like this need to be exposed repeatedly. Instead of having talking heads debate "what Trump meant" in an effort to seem fair, some Network needs to just have one charismatic journalist just call out these lies. And air it like a SportsCenter repeat. No editorials. No projecting. Nothing but "Here's example A, and reason X why it's a lie."

Take their game and beat them to death with the truth.

*edit* And no jumping to conclusions. Take a moment to make sure you're armed with the correct reasoning.

Technically, it may not be a lie. I believe I saw sometime in the past week, there is a law or laws pertaining to separating families who come here illegally, it does exist on the books somewhere. What the exact details of it are, I don't know. And what the vote tally was that enacted that law, again, I don't know, but it's possible that a majority of Democrats were in favor of this law as written.

The problem is, how it was implemented in regards to illegal immigrants crossing the border from Mexico. Until this time, immigrants were channeled through other legal processes, and this law was never enforced regarding the children of these immigrants. Trumpy and his administration have chosen to handle things in different ways, and using this law against the families of immigrants is just one of them. In fact, just a few weeks ago, Trumpy made it a point of emphasis to Sessions and the DHS that this was how things were going to be done. And they've followed through.

Technically, it may not be a lie. I believe I saw sometime in the past week, there is a law or laws pertaining to separating families who come here illegally, it does exist on the books somewhere. What the exact details of it are, I don't know. And what the vote tally was that enacted that law, again, I don't know, but it's possible that a majority of Democrats were in favor of this law as written.

The problem is, how it was implemented in regards to illegal immigrants crossing the border from Mexico. Until this time, immigrants were channeled through other legal processes, and this law was never enforced regarding the children of these immigrants. Trumpy and his administration have chosen to handle things in different ways, and using this law against the families of immigrants is just one of them. In fact, just a few weeks ago, Trumpy made it a point of emphasis to Sessions and the DHS that this was how things were going to be done. And they've followed through.

Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Originally Posted by aparch

Thank you. I was unaware there may be some obscure reasoning to this.

Well, obviously, that's not why Trumpy is doing it, and not why his tweets are blaming it on the Democrats. And maybe the law doesn't say that families can vbe divided, but there's some wishy-washy language in there that they're seizing on to do it.

But I'm sure at one point, one of his fascist underlings in DHS stumbled across this law and pointed it out to him, and said, "Hey look at what we can do!!". Just like he can force power providers to pay more for coal and nuclear in the name of "national security".

By executive order, no less. I thought the righties here hated presidents who ruled by executive order?