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Topic: If 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11 is a lie straight from the devil then . . . (Read 2095 times)

If 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11 is a lie straight from the devil then . . .

I have often heard on these boards that God saving all is a lie straight from the devil.

If 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10 is a lie straight from the devil then why are we told by God in 1 Timothy 4:11 to teach these things?

Also, I'd like to know why Satan would want mankind to know that he will be completely defeated?

Why would Satan want a message preached that completely honors God and His Son, Jesus Christ?

Why would Satan want a message preached that Christ will be completely victorious in that He will save all whom He died for?

It seems to me Satan would want people to preach that God will lose the majority of mankind and Satan will win the majority of mankind.

It seems to me Satan would want people to think that Christ's death accomplished nothing. That it all depends upon you to save yourself.

If I were Satan (and I can assure you I am not) but if I were Satan I would set up as many seminaries as I could around the world, fill them with spiritually blind who really want to please God but don't really know how. I would set them up so that they would be funded in such a way that if anyone taught on the truth of a fully victorious God and a fully victoriousl Saviour, Jesus Christ, that they would immediately lose tenure and lose their jobs.

I would fill Christian book stores with books from these seminaries from people trying to get their doctorates. Any books teaching the complete victory of God and Christ would automatically be banned.

I would fill pulpits with ministers from these seminaries to keep the world blinded to the truth.

Now then, getting back to the main point, why would Satan want us to believe in an all victorious God and an all victorious Saviour?

If 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11 is a lie straight from the devil then . . .

I have often heard on these boards that God saving all is a lie straight from the devil.

If 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10 is a lie straight from the devil then why are we told by God in 1 Timothy 4:11 to teach these things?

Because it's not the verse that's a lie but the UR all=all defenition

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Also, I'd like to know why Satan would want mankind to know that he will be completely defeated?

Then satan can catch people off guard

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Why would Satan want a message preached that completely honors God and His Son, Jesus Christ?

Because he's a wolf in sheeps clothes

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Why would Satan want a message preached that Christ will be completely victorious in that He will save all whom He died for?

So people no longer fear and start to sin. So satan wins in the end

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It seems to me Satan would want people to preach that God will lose the majority of mankind and Satan will win the majority of mankind.

See above

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It seems to me Satan would want people to think that Christ's death accomplished nothing. That it all depends upon you to save yourself.

No because then people actually start to work for salvation. That's counter productive.

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If I were Satan (and I can assure you I am not) but if I were Satan I would set up as many seminaries as I could around the world, fill them with spiritually blind who really want to please God but don't really know how. I would set them up so that they would be funded in such a way that if anyone taught on the truth of a fully victorious God and a fully victoriousl Saviour, Jesus Christ, that they would immediately lose tenure and lose their jobs.

Seems you already did that

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I would fill Christian book stores with books from these seminaries from people trying to get their doctorates. Any books teaching the complete victory of God and Christ would automatically be banned.

Secular book stores like Amazon sell everything but many religious bookstores only sell what ther like. (ban)

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I would fill pulpits with ministers from these seminaries to keep the world blinded to the truth.

Done

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Now then, getting back to the main point, why would Satan want us to believe in an all victorious God and an all victorious Saviour?

So we start to sin

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Now then, getting back to the main point, why would Satan want us to believe in an all victorious God and an all victorious Saviour?

So we start to sin

But people sin while believing God will damn the majority to an eternity of hell fire and people sin while believing God will save all mankind.

But I must confess, the greater sinners are those who believe God will eternally torment people. Jim Jones comes to mind and some women who drowned their helpless little children, not to mention bloody Mary.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 05:23:36 PM by Tony N »

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

But I must confess, the greater sinners are those who believe God will eternally torment people. Jim Jones comes to mind and some women who drowned their helpless little children, not to mention bloody Mary.

I don't know Jim Jones; and about those woman I'm not so sure.They are wrong. They need help. But who caused it? It makes me think of a quote from the gun lobby.Guns don't kill, people do.Woman=gun, doctrine/preachers=trigger finger?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

friendofmankind

If 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11 is a lie straight from the devil then . . .

I have often heard on these boards that God saving all is a lie straight from the devil.

If 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10 is a lie straight from the devil then why are we told by God in 1 Timothy 4:11 to teach these things?

Also, I'd like to know why Satan would want mankind to know that he will be completely defeated?

Why would Satan want a message preached that completely honors God and His Son, Jesus Christ?

Why would Satan want a message preached that Christ will be completely victorious in that He will save all whom He died for?

It seems to me Satan would want people to preach that God will lose the majority of mankind and Satan will win the majority of mankind.

It seems to me Satan would want people to think that Christ's death accomplished nothing. That it all depends upon you to save yourself.

If I were Satan (and I can assure you I am not) but if I were Satan I would set up as many seminaries as I could around the world, fill them with spiritually blind who really want to please God but don't really know how. I would set them up so that they would be funded in such a way that if anyone taught on the truth of a fully victorious God and a fully victoriousl Saviour, Jesus Christ, that they would immediately lose tenure and lose their jobs.

I would fill Christian book stores with books from these seminaries from people trying to get their doctorates. Any books teaching the complete victory of God and Christ would automatically be banned.

I would fill pulpits with ministers from these seminaries to keep the world blinded to the truth.

Now then, getting back to the main point, why would Satan want us to believe in an all victorious God and an all victorious Saviour?

But I must confess, the greater sinners are those who believe God will eternally torment people. Jim Jones comes to mind and some women who drowned their helpless little children, not to mention bloody Mary.

I don't know Jim Jones; and about those woman I'm not so sure.They are wrong. They need help. But who caused it? It makes me think of a quote from the gun lobby.Guns don't kill, people do.Woman=gun, doctrine/preachers=trigger finger?

Jim Jones murdered over 900 of his church by cyanide laced Kool Aide.

Andrea Yates drowned her three youngest sons in a bathtub.Susan Smith drowned her children in a car she drove into a lake.Deanna Laney stoned her two children to death.

Christina Marie Riggs (1971 – May 2, 2000) was a murderer executed in Arkansas by lethal injection. She was convicted of the November 4, 1997 murder of her two preschool-aged children, Justin and Shelby Alexis Riggs, in their beds at the family's Sherwood, Arkansas home. She murdered her children by giving them undiluted Potassium Chloride after giving them Elavil to sedate them. The potassium chloride was not diluted properly. It burned her son's veins, causing Justin terrible pain but not death. She eventually smothered him to death with a pillow along with her daughter because of the potassium chloride was ineffective. Coincidentally, she was executed with a potassium chloride injection, the same substance with which she attempted to kill her children.

And recently the woman sunday school teacher who murdered a young girsl and stuffed her body into a suitcase.

These are just the tip of the ice burg of what the doctrine of eternal torment does to people.

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

I was thinking, which probably isn't a good thing but what is the main reason most preachers and people believe in ET? Isn't it the words, hell, forever, and eternal, damnation, punishment, that has everyone in it's grasp? Wouldn't it be nice if there was someone who could get a TV program or something started that could explain all of these words and what they really meant to the public without promoting a type of religion or anything? Maybe if there was no religion being promoted, just these words being explained, more people would pay attention. Just explain what hell really meant in Hebrew and Greek and all the other words that have people deceived. Use scripture to explain things but don't say I believe this or that, just give the facts. Just call it, facts of the Bible, or explaination of words that people do not know, or something not related to any religious name such as UR, or any denomination.

It's often said that the Bible has layers of understanding. If someone could 100% prove what words meant at the time of Jesus it's wouldn't make a different. Because "inspired" translators say otherwise and ofcourse the deeper layers of the Bible prove that the words mean what they want them to mean....

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

My first rather sarcastic post was about words too. Although I agree with what TonyN wrote I know those who oppose UR will answer similar the way I did.

For TonyN his post means "pure white light" but for the Jones' and Yates' of this world TonyN's post mean pitch black suffocating darkness.A simple straightforward post with 2 opposite understandings.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

I think it would help some people. The searchers that are open for new understanding.But I fear the people Tony mentioned only listen for things to debunk. So if that person on TV gives a perfect explanation and just mentions Trinity then all those that don't believe in Trinity will focus on that and forget the whole speech.Or they simply say the person is wrong because their pastor says all means a few of each race.Maybe we should keep a poll on it. I think Gary/Tentmaker converted very few people to UR.All who are here were already seekers. Open to absorb knowledge. For those TM is a gift. And the TV program you mention is also a gift.If you hear an expert with an opion you don't like just Google until you find an expert that agrees with you

I know you mean a secular teacher, but I think people that want to learn can learn a lot from just watching Ur teachers on YouTube.Even Jesus didn't convice many people. And that often were people that just listened to His speeches in the hope He said something illegal.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

friendofmankind

People who want all men saved (or at least more than the traditional 2%), WILL search things out...(You know, the decent types, the ones who care about people just as much as themselves...The ones who couldnt bear to see anyone hurt)......The rest are actually rather happy spouting their mouths, believeing most people end up in hell (98%) etc...Its great to them, they wouldnt have it and dont want it any other way....They REFUSE to study just incase it rocks their perverted belief...Hell to their perverted minds is the thought of everyone being saved eventually...especially the ones they pointed the finger at and swore before them that one day they would burn in hell tormented by demons in agony forever....Ive witnessed this!! (Many times!) And because of this, I don't 'witness' or even have much to do with such people.Anyone who would worship a 'god' who would destroy or torcher forever 98% (or more) of his own creation is SICK in the head, weak minded and a coward....Controlled by fear, or either that, hateful of their fellow man.

I warn such people (tell them about UR) ONCE and after that have nothing to do with them. I spend less times onworthless ventures nowadays and a lot more time on worthwhile ventures...Such as answering questions an honest seeker might have (rather than endless debate with a fool out for an argument, who doesn't worship God at all).God is love...If these people aren't worshipping 'love', then they are not worshipping God, and I see little evidence of much 'love' in them, most of them breathe hell morning noon and night and they are HAPPY being deluded and HAPPY that their God is just as (whats the word?) 'Warped' as they are. (And of course, heartless, unmerciful, unforgiving, showing favouritism, blahdidty blah blah blah!

Anyone who would worship a 'god' who would destroy or torcher forever 98% (or more) of his own creation is SICK in the head, weak minded and a coward....Controlled by fear, or either that, hateful of their fellow man.

They are not sick in the head, weak minded, or a coward, they just haven't had their minds open to the truth yet. Weren't you at this same place at one time?

I know there are people out there who wouldn't be interested in hearing the meaning of words in the Bible but there are others who would be. I am not talking about teaching Trinity, or other doctrines, just the meaning of words that have been misunderstood, mistranslated, and misused.

friendofmankind

They are not sick in the head, weak minded, or a coward, they just haven't had their minds open to the truth yet. Weren't you at this same place at one time?

If someone would worship a being...any form of being...Human, God, whatever who would torcher FOREVER MOST of his creation, then these people are indeed sick, or cowardice (worshipping out of fear).Many followed Hitler, (out of fear), who is but a pale example to a maniac who would torcher most of his own creation (his own CHILDREN) forever in a fire.Its just my opinion, im not asking anyone to agree with me...Its pretty black and white to me. Its also the reason i believe Jesus said "Look the prostitutes are entering the Kingdom before you!", and "The last will be first"...In other words, the ones who THINK they are first, will end up last.

Atheists dont have a 'god' per se, yet many of them manage to love out of the goodness of their hearts, with no reward, or thoughts of a heavenly afterlife...All through their lives they believe that if the Christian teaching (traditional hell forever nonsense) were true, then they would be FIRST into the hellhole...without knowing that they are the 'last' that will be 'first'. (To heaven).

Who will argue with God on judgement day? - The surprised athiest who discovers that God is actually great, full of love and NOTHING like most of Christendom?Or will it be the 'Christians' (traditional hell fire believers) who want JUSTICE! They want PUNISHMENT! They want TORCHER! "Nooooo God! Burn them!!"Who will God put first and who will He put last?I know what I would do.

And no, i never worshipped the image of such an evil god...I couldnt...I love people to much. Heaven would be hell for me if most of mankind ended up in hell anyway.Also, the thought of being in a 'heaven' surrounded by all the religious hypocrites i came across my entire life never really appealed to me...Heaven sounded more like hell.... having to listen to that crap? not just for a lifetime, but forever...whoa!

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I know there are people out there who wouldn't be interested in hearing the meaning of words in the Bible but there are others who would be. I am not talking about teaching Trinity, or other doctrines, just the meaning of words that have been misunderstood, mistranslated, and misused.

I think any reasonable person would seek out the truth...Or at least deconvert from traditional Christianity...How can one love a God of love, while believeing that this God of love sends most of his own children to an eternal torcher pit? How can one love a 'god' who would burn his own unbelieving family (mother, children, brothers, fathers, sisters) in hell forever and justify it by saying...."A book told me so".... ...It never made any sense to me....It just goes to show how willing some people are to lose their mind over a book without actually consulting their brains, emotions, conscience etc at the same time...Most Christians dont even know the meaning of the world love, or mercy...How can they if they worship a being that would torcher forever his own children? They dont have the first clue about love...Thats why we have people who believe in eternal torment killing their children and going nuts in a supermarket with a rifle, or why we have Muslims who jump in the nearest plane and smash it into the closest building they can find....They dont have a clue about love.

But i aggree, its great to put the truth out there so that others 'might' respond, but i feel the best way to show God to the world is to be Christlike "So that they see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven", as Jesus said.Sadly few bother to do this, most instead sit around on forums all day, jobless and in never ending futile debates.Again, its their choice, but to the non believeing world...THAT is what they see....arguments, lazy 'Christians', forever debating this or that, doing no real 'good' in the world at all, and continually in a cycle of belief, unbelief, belief, unbelief, constantly need reasurrance and actually just wasting their lives. Many end up turning from the faith or cracking up and non believers see how hypcritical and loveless they really are and think..."Whoa im better off as I am, who would want to be that mixed up and 'lost'".The unbeliever may be 'lost' in sin, but at least he will get through life without jumping off a bridge.

The rest of the Christian world, just becomes a Christian one day in a packed out church and goes around for the rest of their days saying they are a Christian. Ask them where the book of Deuteronomy appears in the Bible and they respond something thus-"Whats a Duesteranomie?"They dont question their 'faith', dont have a clue what or who they are worshipping, and dont really care, but they are quick to point out that they are going to heaven while most other people are going to hell forever, because they are so incredibly wise and 'sorted' and good people, and everyone else is evil and satanic.

All this ramming stuff down peoples throats, and all this "im right and your wrong" rubbish is embarrassing. I dont get involved anymore, i finally grew up. If people WANT to find answers they WILL, because their conscience and other influences will FORCE them to seek, as probably all the members on here could attest one way or another.

I am agreeing with you, I think its great to get the truth out there...But.... A lot of damage has been done with this eternal torment doctrine and i think we need to be careful with who we talk to about it...In other words, if someone doesnt want to hear it, why share it? Rocking peoples beliefs can actuallys send them off their head. Most people get to a stubborn point in a particular faith where as soon as someone questions their belief they go"WHOOOAAA!! STOP STOP!" And cover their ears. Their life made no sense without their belief, and anything that challenges it, they dont want to hear about it. Its a very sensitive issue, and the reason i mention that is on forums in the past i have continuously seen UR believers debating day in and day out with ET believers...Both sometimes ending up sounding just as bad as each other.I see the UR believer say that hell wasnt a word until 720 ad, and then 5000 pages later on the forum, i see that it still hasnt 'sunk in' to the ETERs head and they are still saying "Jesus said hell more than he said heaven!"

I believe in showing people God in the way we live, or at least getting off our bums on occasion to actually do some good in the world...Faith is a great thing, it helps you, but if your not doing any works it does bugger all to help anyone else....especially if you keep talking about your great 'faith' and how great Jesus is, when all the while your jobless, and sit around on forums all day, not lifting a finger to help anyone or do anything.

Sorry for the long rant, most of it wasnt directed at you (i just want to make that very clear! I was just on a roll and i thought "why stop now!"? i just wanted to make a few points!

I actually cant stand religion.True religion to me is the same as Christ said - "Visiting the widow and orphans in their distress".I have no time for 'crap'. I just wish people would start loving each other and helping each other, God or no God. Were only here for a short time. I wish people would just believe "God is love", and get on with it.Does it matter what colour of panties Judas wears or how many times the cock crowed...It doesnt to me.

Faith hope and love....the GREATEST of these is....dun dun dun.....LOVE.That means that the atheist (faithless) who loves, is greater than the Christian (with faith) who doesnt.

Urgh just love each other! That was Jesus's final and GREATEST COMMANDMENT (love your neighbour as yourself) (how can you love God whom you cant see if you dont love your brother who you CAN see?)Does the world listen?Does it EVER listen?No, because its deaf, and until Christians actually LIVE their faith, they will NEVER understand what love actually is, or who God is.

People should just read - "Love your neighbour as yourself", and leave it at that...Thats enough to do in any one lifetime for anyone. Instead of continually debating about whether Paul had a gold filling on his left tooth or his right, or whether Peter was better at catching tuna than Matthew, or how long St Johns beard was, or whether or not Samson used horse steriods.

If everyone did that (loved each other like they love themselves)...Then we would see a change, but if everyone keeps sitting around on forums (like me tonight), all that will happen is there will be more people on a forum (whoa talk about world change!!)......While orphans are dying from hunger and widows are dying alone from a broken heart.People are so preocuppied with - "Ohhhhh where will i go when i die....Help! Help! I need answers! Am i saved!?" - Making their own life hell and everyone around them.

Jesus made it simple...

MARKThe Greatest Commandment

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.e 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'f 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'g There is no commandment greater than these."

32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

JOHN2My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command

For fook sake, wake up world....At least get the MOST IMPORTANT commands right before you bother what colour of eyes St Herod had.

Urgh just love each other! That was Jesus's final and GREATEST COMMANDMENT (love your neighbour as yourself) (how can you love God whom you cant see if you dont love your brother who you CAN see?)

Hi fom,

Don't forget that loving others should include those who believe that God is going to torture people for all eternity. Also, those who murder, rape, and so forth in this life. We should love ALL PEOPLE no matter what they believe, or how they live their lives.

Urgh just love each other! That was Jesus's final and GREATEST COMMANDMENT (love your neighbour as yourself) (how can you love God whom you cant see if you dont love your brother who you CAN see?)

Hi fom,

Don't forget that loving others should include those who believe that God is going to torture people for all eternity. Also, those who murder, rape, and so forth in this life. We should love ALL PEOPLE no matter what they believe, or how they live their lives.

CHB

Exactly...Thats why we shouldnt rock their beliefs so much...they 'need' it, and they will come when its their time to come (When God decides) and not before. They are deaf and blind for a reason. (Turned them over to disobedience so He could have mercy upon all).

Put the truth out there, show the world God through love in our lives and leave it at that i say, or else well end up resounding gongs and clanging symbols as well.

But I must confess, the greater sinners are those who believe God will eternally torment people. Jim Jones comes to mind and some women who drowned their helpless little children, not to mention bloody Mary.

I don't know Jim Jones; and about those woman I'm not so sure.They are wrong. They need help. But who caused it? It makes me think of a quote from the gun lobby.Guns don't kill, people do.Woman=gun, doctrine/preachers=trigger finger?

Jim Jones murdered over 900 of his church by cyanide laced Kool Aide.

Andrea Yates drowned her three youngest sons in a bathtub.Susan Smith drowned her children in a car she drove into a lake.Deanna Laney stoned her two children to death.

Christina Marie Riggs (1971 – May 2, 2000) was a murderer executed in Arkansas by lethal injection. She was convicted of the November 4, 1997 murder of her two preschool-aged children, Justin and Shelby Alexis Riggs, in their beds at the family's Sherwood, Arkansas home. She murdered her children by giving them undiluted Potassium Chloride after giving them Elavil to sedate them. The potassium chloride was not diluted properly. It burned her son's veins, causing Justin terrible pain but not death. She eventually smothered him to death with a pillow along with her daughter because of the potassium chloride was ineffective. Coincidentally, she was executed with a potassium chloride injection, the same substance with which she attempted to kill her children.

And recently the woman sunday school teacher who murdered a young girsl and stuffed her body into a suitcase.

These are just the tip of the ice burg of what the doctrine of eternal torment does to people.

Because you become the God you worship. Plus with the belief in Age of Accountability, should not Andrea Yates be a hero? She was just saving her children from the Devil from taking them to hell. So such a vile doctrine brings vile fruits.