If we can get Ericsson and Kindl playing more like Meszaros and Pitkanen, we're all set.

So Pitkanen and Meszaros are a better influence than Lidstrom and Stuart? Now I've heard everything. At least Mindfly made good points and didn't just troll.

The Best Of BCHankthaTank- Squirrels, they hate to be thrown. / Why is the magical unicorn named Brian... Jedi - I just downloaded the "kids" book, "Go the F--k to Sleep" as narrated by Samuel L. Jackson on my kindle. I am now ready to be a daddy. / *Checks Router* No, I'm positive I didn't hit the "Wings Defense Sucks" button. Electrophile - I'm just glad the Wings were able to win despite the Curse of Brian. ACallToArms - I think Trey needs to put something about payroll tax and deferred income in his sig... Edicius- I'd rather [have] a soundbite of me saying "I like (man sausage)" rather than "I like Crosby".

Kronwall, Pitkanen, Meszaros, Rafalski, Ericsson, Kindl.If we can get Ericsson and Kindl playing more like Meszaros and Pitkanen, we're all set.

You think our defense sucks now? Pitkanen? I have noticed you have mentioned trading Hudler, perhaps the most useless Wing playing right now....

DAN WHATEVER YOUR f****** NAME IS CLEAR OR CLEARLY GET THE f*** OUT OF THIS TEAM BACK GO f****** LEARN TO PLAY MORON I PERSONALY DON'T GIVE A s*** THAT YR LEG IS f***ET UP, PLEASE LIIVE. ANF BABCOCK PLEASE GET READ OF OUR QUINESSSSSSYYYYY HOLLAND YOU JUST HIT THE JUCK f****** POTT!

So Pitkanen and Meszaros are a better influence than Lidstrom and Stuart? Now I've heard everything. At least Mindfly made good points and didn't just troll.

Ok, i'll step into your trap.

Lidstrom is of course the best influence of the four. He's always been the best player, the most experienced and the best leader.

But Ericsson and Kindl are big, mobile defensemen who have good puck skills. Neither uses their body nearly enough. They need to add more grit, more growl, and more physical presence to their game. They need to utilize that size and strength. Lidstrom doesn't play a physical game, and I had removed Stuart from the roster so in the Meszaros trade.

Meech is better than third pairing defensemen on some NHL teams. He's not a star, but he's an NHL-level player who has been buried in Detroit's system. I would not be shocked at all to see a team like Calgary or Toronto go after a guy like Meech in the offseason. Meech played a few years in Red Deer for current Flames coach Brent Sutter, and he made up a dominant pairing there with Dion Phaneuf. A speedy #4-6 defenseman like Meech capable of playing the power play who is defensively aware would help Toronto out, and might be a good fit in Calgary opposite Bouwmeester to provide a particularly speedy pair.

But the fact that Meech's contract ends after the season, and he has played zero games this season, means he has low trade value and the only reason to include him in a trade is if he specifically is the player going to that destination (such as Calgary to play for Sutter as noted earlier) but that would be like a "Meech for a 3rd rounder" or something deal, unless he were included in a larger deal; and there's not really an obvious deal that helps the Wings from the teams that I mentioned, so there you go.

You realize Meszaros is better defensively and more physical than Stuart, while being six years younger? Furthermore, Stuart is signed through next season, while Meszaros has two seasons more on top of that.

Meszaros>Stuart.

I didn't say it had to be a Tatar or Pulkkinen; but Philly won't just give up Mesz for Stuart.

Trading for a quality mid-20s shutdown defenseman isn't free.

I wouldn't say Mesz is either better defenseively or more physical. In a similar amout of games since the lockout, Stuart has around 200 more hits. Both are solid 2nd pair guys who can fill in on a top pair when required. Mesz is no more a shutdown defender than Stuart. He is younger, but I'm not building the defense around either so I don't care.

Regardless, even if I did think Mesz was better, he is certainly no where near enough of an improvement to include a 2nd rounder and a prospect. You even point out that our defense isn't physical enough and then propose trading our most physical defender for someone who hits less, and you throw in a pick that could easily garner a big, physical defender 6 years younger than Meszaros if we decided to go that way. Or, if we decided to trade the pick and maybe a low pick or prospect, we could get another defenseman of similar quality. (As proven by the trades involving the very players we're talking about.) Your proposal was a gross overpayment.

... but Stuart needs to shape up because he has not looked good. ...

I don't think you know what 'good' looks like. Stuart isn't an all-star, but neither is Meszaros. You trade Stu AND a 2nd AND a prospect with even a hint of NHL potential you better get an all-star in return or you're getting robbed.

Right now the wings are short 1 solid D-man and maybe a goaltender to make a deep run. My problem is not with Stuart who is a reasonable 3rd or 4th defensemen, but rather Rafalski, who as 2nd D who is paid 6 mil and can't actually play in his own end anymore. Rafalski is by far the biggest salary blemish with a no-trade the Wings have right now.

So, to get a top 2 or 3 D-man will mean trading Flip + a 3rd or 4th liner + a pick. No one will take Rafalski or Hudler or Bertuzzi or Draper as the major component. Flip is the only one that has any real trade value. Other guys they will want will be Helm, and maybe Eaves.... Neither of which I would give up. In summary, Holland won't do s*** and the wings will be out in the second round because they cannot keep the puck out of the net.

Are you kidding? Block you? And miss watching you stumble around the forum looking for an argument like a dog sniffing butts? It would be like turning off a bad episode of Jerry Springer. You know you shouldn't be watching, but you just... can't... help... it...

Trading Flip for a rental is not the answer. The best thing I propose is still trading Miller (who has some trade value) and a 4th or 5th rounder for a shutdown 5th/6th DMan.

The Best Of BCHankthaTank- Squirrels, they hate to be thrown. / Why is the magical unicorn named Brian... Jedi - I just downloaded the "kids" book, "Go the F--k to Sleep" as narrated by Samuel L. Jackson on my kindle. I am now ready to be a daddy. / *Checks Router* No, I'm positive I didn't hit the "Wings Defense Sucks" button. Electrophile - I'm just glad the Wings were able to win despite the Curse of Brian. ACallToArms - I think Trey needs to put something about payroll tax and deferred income in his sig... Edicius- I'd rather [have] a soundbite of me saying "I like (man sausage)" rather than "I like Crosby".

You do realize that trolling is when your posts are primarily intended to anger or upset other board members, right? I bet you don't. Because if you did, you'd realize that you are a troll.

Geez, I hope you don't live in a glass house!

..ok, how's this, I think the defense would be worse without Stuart, I am surprised there isnt some talk of trading Hudler, since he is basically the most useless player on this team... Pitkanen is not as good as Stuart in my opinion...

Edited by LeftWinger, 09 February 2011 - 04:19 PM.

DAN WHATEVER YOUR f****** NAME IS CLEAR OR CLEARLY GET THE f*** OUT OF THIS TEAM BACK GO f****** LEARN TO PLAY MORON I PERSONALY DON'T GIVE A s*** THAT YR LEG IS f***ET UP, PLEASE LIIVE. ANF BABCOCK PLEASE GET READ OF OUR QUINESSSSSSYYYYY HOLLAND YOU JUST HIT THE JUCK f****** POTT!

I like this idea, but the shutdown d-man would have to have around the same salary miller has, idk many shutdown d-man playing for peanuts.Any ideas? Who would you like to see?

There is no trading of Drew Miller. He is a PK specialist winger with not much offensive ability, playing for just above league minimum, and is UFA at the end of the year. If anything, he's the kind of guy Holland looks to add at the deadline, not trade away. He has next to zero trade value; despite the vast gap in player ability, trading Miller might not even get Lebda back.

Geez, I hope you don't live in a glass house!

..ok, how's this, I think the defense would be worse without Stuart, I am surprised there isnt some talk of trading Hudler, since he is basically the most useless player on this team... Pitkanen is not as good as Stuart in my opinion...

I do live in a glass house, actually. Because I know people like you love to monitor my every behavior, all of the walls and furniture are transparent.

Pitkanen was mentioned as an "if Lidstrom retires" and I have mentioned him before, because IMHO he's the best free agent defenseman the Wings could realistically get this summer if Nick hangs them up.

Meszaros may not have been as physical as Stuart 3-4 years ago. Does that really make a difference to NOW? Stuart has been getting less physical over the past few years, and his defense has declined considerably since 2008.

"I've never seen a warlock do that without his magic.""I once devoured a monk's soul. It tasted like chocolate."

20 year old 3rd pick overall dman with great potential, who is struggling with management in Atlanta. I heard somewhere - it might have been nhl.comm that atlanta would move him if the deal is sweet enough.

...Meszaros may not have been as physical as Stuart 3-4 years ago. Does that really make a difference to NOW? Stuart has been getting less physical over the past few years, and his defense has declined considerably since 2008.

Stuart had over 200 hits last year. His highest total since the lockout (possibly a career high, NHL.com doesn't have pre-lockout hits). He was pretty close to that pace again this year. He still is more physical than Mesz, or certainly on a similar level.

He has been rock solid for most of the past two seasons defensively. Easily 2nd best on the team. For many games both last year and this, he was arguably even better than Nick. Like most people, you probably just fixate on the mistakes. Watch any player close enough, looking for flaws, and you will find them.

That's just not true. Hudler has been playing very well lately and has been putting up the points along with it. If you want to look at useless players, try looking at some of the other wingers in our top 6. Namely, Bertuzzi and Franzen (one 4 goal game doesn't make up for countless other games where he is invisible).

That's just not true. Hudler has been playing very well lately and has been putting up the points along with it. If you want to look at useless players, try looking at some of the other wingers in our top 6. Namely, Bertuzzi and Franzen (one 4 goal game doesn't make up for countless other games where he is invisible).

it was 5 goals... and ya, it'll keep me satisfied for maybe one more game. then ill start saying hes useless. bert has been invisible. i liked it when he played with abby.

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?

honestly, i think we have enough top six talent at the moment to not trade hudler for some help on D or G. its kind of annoying that we have guys going cold cause they get bottom 2 line minutes due to the extreme depth.

I excluded the empty net goal.

i count it, because he tried to let bert or z (i can't remember) score first, and then he was rewarded. so i don't think it was that cheap. i'll count it. glass half full.

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?