Gun Registry in Colorado

So a few days ago my wife got pulled over for speeding in a school zone. Entirely her fault and she knows it. What bothers me is that the tickets have changed. Even though you submit your license, and registration and proof of insurance, the officer still asks about pretty much your life story. They now ask, city of birth, Social Security Number, and a whole bunch of other information irrelevant to a speeding ticket. My wife was pretty adament about not giving all the information because whatever the cop needs to know, they can pull up from the computer in their car. Which the officer verified he did. What bothers me though, is that he stated that it even told him she had a pistol purchase, but when my wife shot him a wierd look after he said that he shut up about it and said nevermind. That tells me that Colorado is actually unofficially registering firearms when you purchase them, without telling the public. Now the additional questions I blew off as tickets requiring that info just to make sure that the right person was getting ticketed, however, I don't find it so easy to swallow that cops have my family's firearm information at the touch of their fingers and nobody knows it. Thoughts anyone?

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Kiln

February 8, 2013, 03:15 PM

So a few days ago my wife got pulled over for speeding in a school zone. Entirely her fault and she knows it. What bothers me is that the tickets have changed. Even though you submit your license, and registration and proof of insurance, the officer still asks about pretty much your life story. They now ask, city of birth, Social Security Number, and a whole bunch of other information irrelevant to a speeding ticket. My wife was pretty adament about not giving all the information because whatever the cop needs to know, they can pull up from the computer in their car. Which the officer verified he did. What bothers me though, is that he stated that it even told him she had a pistol purchase, but when my wife shot him a wierd look after he said that he shut up about it and said nevermind. That tells me that Colorado is actually unofficially registering firearms when you purchase them, without telling the public. Now the additional questions I blew off as tickets requiring that info just to make sure that the right person was getting ticketed, however, I don't find it so easy to swallow that cops have my family's firearm information at the touch of their fingers and nobody knows it. Thoughts anyone?
Does she have a concealed carry license?

Maybe he asked her if she had a pistol permit and she misunderstood?

CSC_Saint

February 8, 2013, 03:21 PM

she nor I have a concealed carry permit at this time, otherwise she would have been required to give it to the officer when she gave him her license and such. As a caveat to that though, here in Colorado, your car is considered an extension of your home and thus you are allowed to carry a concealed firearm in your car.

silicosys4

February 8, 2013, 03:24 PM

I purchased a pistol recently while my CPP was expired, the weekend before I had it renewed. Since I had to get the standard background check and waiting period, the local police were notified about my purchase, to the extent that I was purchasing a handgun which required a background check. There was a "delay" that came at the local level so I had to straighten it out with the county sheriff. Turned out to be mistaken identity.
I wouldn't doubt the local police have some sort of a kept record of who's bought what, and when, as the background checks come across their desks when the purchaser has no CPP.
but I would be very surprised, and more than a little upset, if there were records being kept of serial numbers tying individual guns to their owners.

MDW GUNS

February 8, 2013, 03:29 PM

Did she buy a gun??
Maybe he was just fishing?
Sometimes LEO ask you such questions and most people will answer honestly even if this gets them into trouble.

MErl

February 8, 2013, 03:32 PM

and you wonder why states would go through the hassle of setting up their own BG check system instead of using the federal one...

And starting in July at this rate we'll be paying for the privilege...

Steel Horse Rider

February 8, 2013, 03:33 PM

I am going to the Larimer County Republican County Assembly meeting tomorrow. I am sure the Sheriff will be there so I will ask him if law enforcement has access to the record of background checks. If they do I will light up my State Senator and Representative who will also be there.

CoRoMo

February 8, 2013, 03:35 PM

Maybe he asked her if she had a pistol permit...
No such thing in Colorado.
...concealed carry permit ... otherwise she would have been required to give it to the officer when she gave him her license and such.
Incorrect. Colorado is not a 'notification required' state: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf

Larry Ashcraft

February 8, 2013, 03:37 PM

she nor I have a concealed carry permit at this time, otherwise she would have been required to give it to the officer when she gave him her license and such
That is not a requirement in Colorado AFAIK.

Law enforcement is not supposed to have a database of gun owners or CCW holders in Colorado.

CSC_Saint

February 8, 2013, 03:44 PM

Thanks for the correction to my knowledge on CCP notification info, and Steel Rider, I would much appreciate it if you would verify with your sherriff.

As to whether my wife has purchased firearms the answer is yes. However it didn't seem like he was fishing as he made his statement flippantly and then tried to shut up about it as soon as he mentioned it. And my wife says that his exact words were, "yeah, it even tells me you bought a pistol...nevermind" Now I can understand the system telling him that she has purchased firearms but he said pistol specifically which means that the system either tracks rifles, shotguns and pistols, or it tracks by make and model the latter I am not Ok with at all

Kiln

February 8, 2013, 04:14 PM

No such thing in Colorado.

Incorrect. Colorado is not a 'notification required' state: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf
I meant for a concealed carry weapon, sorry I wasn't more clear.

psyopspec

February 8, 2013, 10:10 PM

That tells me that Colorado is actually unofficially registering firearms when you purchase them, without telling the public.

Are you sure?

When I was a much, much younger man I was told by a policeman that I had to give him the names of individuals involved in a minor victimless crime, or he would report me to <State> Renters Association and I would never able to rent an apartment again. I told him I didn't have the information he was seeking, but that I would be ready to appeal his action with that association. After the encounter, I looked it up. Turned out the organization he mentioned didn't exist. Sometimes policeman and other authority figures will say things in order gather information, or just to exert their power for the pure joy of it.

Now, by your logic my encounter should have told me that the police officers in that state had the ability to kick people out of their homes and deny them future status as renters without any due process. That would be wrong, and my point is that police are human, and humans aren't always 100% honest.

jim243

February 8, 2013, 10:31 PM

but I would be very surprised, and more than a little upset, if there were records being kept of serial numbers tying individual guns to their owners.

(LOL) You have to be kidding, of course there is, what do you think the 4473 is for??

It is required to be kept 10 years by the FFL. Each manufacturer is required to log to what distributor their guns are shipped to and each distributor must keep records of which store it was sold to. AND each store MUST keep a record of whom it was sold to.

I would not be supprised to find out that the NICS check keeps a record of the serial number and your social security number as well. I don't have a problem with that, it's been going on for years now.

The real problem is that criminals do not go through a NICS check when they purchase guns on the street illegally. I also believe there is a national registry of stolen guns as well.

Let's get real folks, this is nothing new.
Jim

Steel Horse Rider

February 8, 2013, 10:49 PM

We are told that by law the background check information is to be destroyed in 72 hours if I remember correctly. You don't have a problem with those who are tasked to enforce the law being in violation of the law? I have a real problem with that! The Magna Charta was passed by the British many centuries ago in order to prevent the leaders from having tyranical privileges.

jim243

February 8, 2013, 11:11 PM

You don't have a problem with those who are tasked to enforce the law being in violation of the law?

No actually I don't. I believe that every law enforcement officer has the right to know when they stop a car if thier life is in danger of being shot. When they answer a domestic disturbance call, if the home owner is armed. When they pull you over for drinking and driving that you are not armed. When you are having a fight with your neighbor that you are not going into your house to get a gun. That when they respond to a 911 call that they will not be shot by the homeowner mistakenly.

So no I have no problem with them knowing I am one of the good guys and not a bad guy carring a gun just to look tough.

I have been registered with the Illinois State Police as a firearms owner for over 30 years, so what's YOUR point, you think they don't know??

Jim

Cranky CJ

February 8, 2013, 11:36 PM

What town or city was this, so I know not to go there or do any business there?

Not appropriate, complain- loudly.

jim243

February 8, 2013, 11:47 PM

The Magna Charta was passed by the British many centuries ago in order to prevent the leaders from having tyranical privileges

I'm sure King George III was reading the Magna Charta (1215) in 1774 when he sent troups to our shores to put down the rebels. (hogwash)

Jim

nazshooter

February 8, 2013, 11:56 PM

(LOL) You have to be kidding, of course there is, what do you think the 4473 is for??

It is required to be kept 10 years by the FFL. Each manufacturer is required to log to what distributor their guns are shipped to and each distributor must keep records of which store it was sold to. AND each store MUST keep a record of whom it was sold to.

He's talking about a record kept by the government and available to the officer during a stop. As you seem aware the 4473 stays with the ffl.

I would not be supprised to find out that the NICS check keeps a record of the serial number and your social security number as well. I don't have a problem with that, it's been going on for years now.

I would considering the serial number is NOT part of the NICS check

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nazshooter

February 9, 2013, 12:10 AM

No actually I don't. I believe that every law enforcement officer has the right to know when they stop a car if thier life is in danger of being shot.....

As you pointed out earlier, criminals don't go through official channels so such a list will NOT tell the officer if their life is in danger or not.

If you really don't have a problem withem keeping a list that they are forbidden by law from keeping then you've been living in IL way too long.

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Justin

February 9, 2013, 12:44 AM

The federal. NICS records cannot be held for more than 24 hours. However, I don't know if the same limitation applies to the CBI background Check.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk. Hence all the misspellings and goofy word choices.

GriNgOboNeZ

February 9, 2013, 06:53 AM

I would like to see the stats for the number of officers shot with legitimate registered guns and gunowners...I'd bet it's nill

Pilot

February 9, 2013, 07:26 AM

If you really don't have a problem withem keeping a list that they are forbidden by law from keeping then you've been living in IL way too long.

This is how this crap spreads. People get used to it, and become de-senstized (indoctrinated), then they want to force everyone else to become brainwashed. No thanks. Keep your gun registers, and gun licenses in IL. :fire:

NOBODY is above the law. Not Law Enforcement, not politicians. We are having a breakdown in society due to this path. Police typically do not have to fear those that legally obtain and legally carry guns. It is the criminal that does not care, nore go through proper, legal means to get a firearm. Focus on them, not the law abiding populace they want so much to control.

Steel Horse Rider

February 9, 2013, 08:39 AM

I was referring to the state keeping and diseminating information it is not supposed to have, not the officers off hand remark. The officer is a small fish, the State of Colorado bureaucracy is a threat.

Jim: The Magna Charta applied the same laws to the leadership that was applied to the commoners. An insurrection (which is what our revolution was) does not fall under the intent of the Magna Charta. However, laws clearly stating procedures to be followed should apply to the rulers and the citizens equally, not an Orwellian "Some are more equal than others".

Al Thompson

February 9, 2013, 08:49 AM

I believe that every law enforcement officer has the right to know when they stop a car if their life is in danger of being shot. When they answer a domestic disturbance call, if the home owner is armed. When they pull you over for drinking and driving that you are not armed.

Obviously, you never were a cop. A switched on officer assumes everyone he comes in contact with is armed until proven otherwise.

Cops that don't think that way are a danger to themselves and others.

rdhood

February 9, 2013, 10:01 AM

Sometimes policeman and other authority figures will say things in order gather information, or just to exert their power for the pure joy of it.

Police are permitted to lie to you as much as they want. You are NOT permitted to lie to them. You are permitted to not talk to them. Everything they need is in the documentation that you provide.

I, personally, would tell them only the information in the documents that I am required to submit to them. Anything else (destination, origin, place of birth) would be off limits. If I had a gun in the car and they asked about a gun, I would tell them a gun was in the car. If I had a gun at home and they asked about a gun, I would tell them that there is no gun in the car.

xfyrfiter

February 9, 2013, 11:25 AM

When the ffl dealer calls the 4473 in, they are asked if it is a pistol or long gun, no serial number is given, or asked for, at the NICS end of the call.

CSC_Saint

February 9, 2013, 02:55 PM

SO I understand that an FFL is required to hold transfer documentation for so long, however, as my wife does not have a CCW permit, a pistol purchase is not information that an officer making a trafiic stop should have ready and easy access to. I can understand if an officer is serving a warrant, but pulling somebody over and having that information handy is not right. What's raising flags about this is the officer's demeanor in regards to this topic. He specifically stated "Yeah, the computer even tells me that you bought a pistol.... nevermind" and told my wife to just sign the ticket. Which tells me that this is information that he should not have given. So either information that law enforcement is forbidden to have is in those hands, or he was fishing, but that's a shady way of fishing if you ask me. And after knowing that she had a previous pistol purchase, he didn't ask if there was a gun in the car, which there was. Shady all around.

CSC_Saint

February 9, 2013, 02:57 PM

And btw, this was in Colorado Springs, iin El Paso county, with the highest concentration of CCW permits in Colorado. So officers should be well versed on how to handle folks with guns and/or permits.

MasterSergeantA

February 9, 2013, 03:52 PM

(LOL) You have to be kidding, of course there is, what do you think the 4473 is for??

It is required to be kept 10 years by the FFL. Each manufacturer is required to log to what distributor their guns are shipped to and each distributor must keep records of which store it was sold to. AND each store MUST keep a record of whom it was sold to.

I would not be supprised to find out that the NICS check keeps a record of the serial number and your social security number as well. I don't have a problem with that, it's been going on for years now.

The real problem is that criminals do not go through a NICS check when they purchase guns on the street illegally. I also believe there is a national registry of stolen guns as well.

Let's get real folks, this is nothing new.
Jim
Actually, the NICS check doesn't include the serial number of the firearm being purchased. And you are NOT required to provide a social security number (I never do), nor is your address a part of the check, should anyone wonder. That is federal law; anything kept at the state level is a function of the state people. We don't have that issue here in Arizona.

The 4473 should be the only federal record of a retail purchase of any firearm (except those subject to the NFA) and they are retained by the FFL holder for a period of 20 years, unless the license is relinquished, at which time they and the 'bound book' are surrendered to the ATF. If a firearm needs to be traced..due to its being involved in a crime, for instance...the 4473 can be copied by ATF investigators for use in the investigation. I always hearken back to the scene in "Red Dawn" (the original, not the remake) where the Russian officer tells his people to go to all the gun shops and collect the 4473s to identify gun owners in town.

What causes me a certain amount of concern is the recent use of computer-based a 4473 by the AAFES system and Wal-Mart (there may be more) after years of the ATF fighting that. Maybe someone finally figured out that computer data is easier to retireve? The forms don't seem to go anywhere, but I am suspicious by nature and training.

Billll

February 9, 2013, 06:49 PM

I know that the police computers have an up to date record of my insurance purchases as my POI is usually well out of date but never a problem. I had no idea that the data base might include recent gun purchases.

I believe that every law enforcement officer has the right to know when they stop a car if thier life is in danger of being shot.

...and we citizens have a right to travel without fear of being harassed or worse by LEOs because they feel that our purchase of a firearm at some point in the past puts them at risk. Being an LEO does not grant one more rights to safety than anyone else in the general population. This notion that they do is just another reason why today we live in a society that looks more like a police state than a free state.

Steel Horse Rider

February 9, 2013, 08:43 PM

Okay, the new Sheriff didn't make the meeting but the one that was term limited out two years ago after serving 12 years was there. I asked him whether the background check records (I believe Colorado does their own) were available to law enforcement and he didn't think they were. He is still active with the state department of liquor enforcement so he is privy to most law enforcement practices, and he is a straight shooter, which is why he was elected Sheriff for 12 years...... So I would guess the cop was fishing.....

huntsman

February 9, 2013, 09:03 PM

unless the license is relinquished, at which time they and the 'bound book' are surrendered to the ATF.

and they're building a database with those files.

Texshooter

February 9, 2013, 09:37 PM

No actually I don't. I believe that every law enforcement officer has the right to know when they stop a car if thier life is in danger of being shot. When they answer a domestic disturbance call, if the home owner is armed. When they pull you over for drinking and driving that you are not armed. When you are having a fight with your neighbor that you are not going into your house to get a gun. That when they respond to a 911 call that they will not be shot by the homeowner mistakenly.

So no I have no problem with them knowing I am one of the good guys and not a bad guy carring a gun just to look tough.

I have been registered with the Illinois State Police as a firearms owner for over 30 years, so what's YOUR point, you think they don't know??

Jim
That, in no way, would tell them if you were a "good" or "bad" guy. Neither is relevant to the world in the moment.

When one becomes a Police they best johnny be aware that their life is in danger as part of the job.

Does not give them the right to have my firearm serial numbers, my social security numbers or anything else of that nature.

Until I have a guarantee from the gov't that I will be free from harm against the wolves, then they can treat me like a free citizen and with respect.

CSC_Saint

February 10, 2013, 01:07 AM

Steel Rider, thanks for putting in the leg work and asking your sherriff about it. I'll chalk it up to fishing, but if it happens again, can't really call it fishing after that. Odd how the officer said it, and his demeanor after suggested he wasn't supposed to say what he did.

we are not amused

February 10, 2013, 01:06 PM

No actually I don't. I believe that every law enforcement officer has the right to know when they stop a car if thier life is in danger of being shot. When they answer a domestic disturbance call, if the home owner is armed. When they pull you over for drinking and driving that you are not armed. When you are having a fight with your neighbor that you are not going into your house to get a gun. That when they respond to a 911 call that they will not be shot by the homeowner mistakenly.

So no I have no problem with them knowing I am one of the good guys and not a bad guy carring a gun just to look tough.

I have been registered with the Illinois State Police as a firearms owner for over 30 years, so what's YOUR point, you think they don't know??

Jim
With the exception of fascist controlled states like Illinois, NO THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO KNOW!

And your lack of concern about "Law enforcement" not following the law says a lot about you.
Do you really think the police know the name of every Illegal gun owner, and who is more likely to use the weapon in an illegal manner, a legal purchaser or an illegal one?:rolleyes:

Fortunately not every one shares your lack of concern.

I am unfamiliar with Colorado law on what information is reported to the local police agencies regarding gun purchases, but the idea that State police agencies are keeping illegal records is not new.www.defensivecarry.com/forum/second-amendment-gun-legislation-discussion/60507-delaware-state-police-caught-illegal-gun-registry.html
I believe they blamed it ultimately on an "accidental" electronic file that was not purged as required, but I notice that the police were well aware of the file and were using it, despite the fact it was "accidently" forgotten.

We need to hold our law enforcement to the highest levels, if they are to have our trust. Sadly in many cases, they fail to live up to that standard.

Billll

February 11, 2013, 07:07 PM

I mentioned this on a newsletter I'm on and got ythis back:

re the statement that the LEO knew a pistol purchase had been made... aside from being illegal, it would require a massive database (run by? funded by?)... good question for Tues mtg if it can be verified... where did the stop take place and by what office (local police/state trooper/sheriff)?...

I filled him in on the details.

CSC_Saint

February 11, 2013, 09:17 PM

It was a CSPD(Springs) officer, and on palmer park and sawyer.

C.F. Plinker

February 13, 2013, 02:28 PM

From the Colorado Bureau of Investigation weblite.

CBI-IC-4
Destruction of Records
Information pertaining to an approved individual which is collected or created
pursuant to a background check for a firearm transfer shall be destroyed within 24 hours
of the issuance of the approval consistent with federal law. The Bureau shall maintain
the transaction number, the date and time of its issuance, and the FFL to whom it was
relayed. Nothing in this rule shall be interpreted so as to prohibit the updating of criminal
history records to accurately reflect dispositions.

Averageman

February 13, 2013, 09:50 PM

Last year when I was working at Ft Carson there was a guy dancing in a Marijuana Leaf Suit 5 minutes from the front gate of Ft.Carson.
Now if you want personal freedom to consume, then how can you disagree with personal freedom under the 2nd ammendment?
It's probobly more "Hip" to go after the gunowners than the marijuana growers at this point in Colorado.
The irony is freedom's protected are equal, but some are just more "hip" than opthers to prosecute right now.

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