Just a general thought, it would seem that at horse shows there are a certain percentage of rider/parents who feel the photographer is a consumate threat to their perfect trip. How do most of you feel about this issue? I often chuckle about it with the judges, but truly on ocassion, error can create issues, not intentionally but it does happen. I have just noticed over the years that it is very rare that a top trainer/ rider seems to find it an issue. This is merely a survey of what is and is not acceptable.

Equitate.

Apr. 26, 2009, 07:16 AM

Personally I don't have a problem with it, but when you're on that spooky horse and the obnoxious photographer leaps from behind that tree just on the other side of the rail, thus spooking your horse, its kind of a pain ;)

So long as they aren't crouching in the shadows to pop out at the most inconvenient moment, I'm good :cool:

LexInVA

Apr. 26, 2009, 07:26 AM

I think some photographers are very much a serious problem in the ring. I was at a local show recently and the respective photographer for that show was running in and around the jump course like some sort of small monkey with a bad foot rash while putting himself in places that he certainly did not belong so that he could get "unique" shots.

supershorty628

Apr. 26, 2009, 07:50 AM

I think it's very easy for a handful of photographers to cause all photographers to have a bad rep. I have never had a problem with a photographer being in the ring, and as I work for one, I have been the person taking pictures in the ring as well. As long as the photographer is careful and aware of what will spook a horse, I've found that it's not an issue. I also know that some horses spook at the flash (or their riders think they will...although by the time the flash goes off, the pair should already be in the air over the jump), which is why some people request no [flash] photography sometimes.

I might be the lone voice of dissent here - and that's fine - I just feel that people are quick to blame whatever outside circumstances they can for their mistakes in a round. Obviously sometimes a photographer can cause a problem, but for the most part, I would say they are very tactful about how they get their pictures.

fleur de duc

Apr. 26, 2009, 08:01 AM

I occasionally work for a horseshow photographer. I have certainly heard some outrageous remarks regarding how the photographer caused XYX and that is why the rider/horse did not place. Now I have only done local hunter shows (but they are pretty competitive and not you typical local show) and we stay outside of the ring, picking a few jumps we can get a good shot of that do not involve that much movement to get. For the bigger jumpers at some bigger shows, someone might go into the ring to get shots, but it is important for us all to have the rider's round first in our minds to make sure we are not in their way at all. I was taught to get the shot, and if the horse was coming in your direction, to stay put until after they pass, and always stay in plain view of them, so no surprises!

but again you would be surprised at how many people blame the photographer! I agree with the fact that it normally is not the bigger named trainers, but the more backyard farm/wanabe's

findeight

Apr. 26, 2009, 08:22 AM

BS. If they knew the horse was squirrely...or use that old pole on them... they can ask the photographer to stay out of the ring.

If they did not, it's not the photgraphers fault they cannot train or ride a horse with normal horse show distractions.

indygirl2560

Apr. 26, 2009, 09:01 AM

I remember at my 2nd show ever, I was riding a really spooky pony and at the last jump of a line, the photgrapher ran into the ring, crouched maybe 4ft from the jump and turned on her flash! Needless to say the pony freaked out and tried to bolt; it scared me half to death too since all of the sudden she appeared out of nowhere basically underneath the jump! Before I started my class, there was no photographer around so I thought I didn't have to worry, but apparently I did afterall. Most photographers I'm fine with because they usually know to stay out of the way and not be obnoxious.

Lucassb

Apr. 26, 2009, 09:39 AM

Have seen a lot more spooks caused by Mom or Dad standing at the rail, popping that flash off just as little Poopsie jumps that last little crossrail out of their first line... but that's on the *very* local level and the kids are not on ponies that show regularly.

Very rarely have I seen a legitimate fault caused by a professional photographer at an A show. Most know what they are doing and so do the horse & rider in the ring being photographed.

Personally the horse show photographer tends to be my favorite person on the grounds... I LOVE getting great shots of my horses. :) Frequently heard quote from my trainer, "What do you mean, which jump is the photographer shooting? Ride them all, for --- sake!" LOL

scotchie

Apr. 26, 2009, 10:42 AM

I agree- I love photos! Nothing better than getting a nice shot. I think the problem lies more with the shows that do not hire HORSE savy photographers. As stated before, there are those that will run willy nilly around the jumps trying to get the picture, while a good horse photographer will know where to place himself to get the best and most shots will being out of the way- often out of the ring. Sadly- I think a few bad apples spoil it.

Nikki^

Apr. 26, 2009, 12:42 PM

I've never had an issue with it but then again I am very very careful. I do however get blamed for everyone's bad equitation or their horses poor jumping style when they see their pictures (sigh). I have had people come and circle near me while waiting to enter the ring for their dressage tests so that the horses can see the camera. If I see a horse in the ring misbehaving or eyeballing me, I put the camera down. Never ever use the flash either. I did see one "dadtographer" get his lens wiped out because he was leaning over the rail taking pictures during a flat class!

I so agree. Greg from FlashPoint taught me a method that works great when taking pictures. You take the picture and as the horse is canering to me, I turn the camera away and face my back to the horse. When the horse passes me I turn around and set up for the next shot.

There is one trainer who comes up to me before the class and asks me not to take photos of his horses cause the camera scares them. So when his horses are doing the rounds, I just walk under the tent and wait till they are finished.

There is nothing we can do if the horse doesn't have good form over the fences. Sometime it's the rider's fault as they get too close to the standards, chip in or takes a long spot. Some horses jump so well that it makes my job really easy :D.

Kestrel

Apr. 26, 2009, 03:39 PM

DD's pony had a thing about flash photos when we got her. She'd jump the jump just great, but after the flash she would buck through the corner. We worked with the local photographer to get her over it. First the photographer was in the ring, but didn't take a photo. During the same time period, we were taking flash photos of pony outside the showring and giving treats to form good associations. It didn't take long before flash photos weren't an issue. Then it was only the clapping and whooping at the end of the round that set her off bucking....

Green Acres

Apr. 26, 2009, 06:24 PM

My silly TB spooked a little today due to the photographer...but I do NOT blame the photographer. Just my green TB still trying to get the hang of showing. He came off a jump right at the photographer who was outside the ring and my TB went who is that. It was kind of funny to me and my trainer was riding him so at least I wasn't on him!!! :lol:

I love looking at the photos and can't wait until the pictures are online to see if I want to buy any!!!

The photographers I see at show are very good and professional.

HARROLDhasmyheart

Apr. 26, 2009, 06:42 PM

I personally love show photographers--well really, the pictures that the really good ones take!

Photographers standing in the ring near jumps aren't all that different from a trainer standing in the ring next to a jump...granted, a trainer doesn't usually have a big camera held up to their face, but the concept of a person in the ring is the same. While I agree that it's not the best for the photographers to be madly running around the ring, I also think that in the ring (especially at a horse show), the horse and rider should be able to make it around the ring even with minor distractions.

I feel like it's tempting to say "if only X hadn't have happened, we would have had the perfect round" although that's not quite justified in my book. Lord only knows how much better we would have placed at one particular show if there wasn't a scary monster (rephrase: scary chesnut horse eating monster) in the corner of a very familiar ring :lol:

Parker_Rider

Apr. 26, 2009, 07:07 PM

Most show photographers are very good - esp. the guys over at Flashpoint or Brian Ryder here in CO. You do get the occasional one who knows nothing about horses who will just pop up out of nowhere, and that's irritating. My biggest issue is with jump crew guys. uggghhhh I can deal with the photogs because 99% of the time it's just my horse being dumb, but jump crew.. I understand you want to get ready for the next class, but really? Do you have to be dragging small trees and shrubbery around the ring while I'm riding? Do you really have to be raking the ring to perfection in front of the jump that I'm heading towards?!?!?

I guess I look at it as your there to show, and part of showing is dealing with distractions, even if those distractions are stupid people... You and your horse just have to deal with it.

Seven-up

Apr. 26, 2009, 07:14 PM

Horses need to get used to and learn how to ignore random things going on in and around the ring.

However, if you have a horse who you know thinks the photog is trying to steal their soul, then you approach Mr./Ms. Photog before going in the ring, and ask them to not take pictures and/or back away from the rail. I've never come across someone who said, "No. I MUST take pictures of you."

Now, are their some folks who always find someone to blame for their bad trip? Of course. Was that the question? :winkgrin::lol:

Molly99

Apr. 26, 2009, 07:22 PM

I think most use it as an excuse.

But, what gets me (and maybe it is just me) are at BIG shows, ie indoors, medal finals, etc when the exhibitor asks to not be photographed (that is fine), but then demands that the photographer leave the ring. sorry but why do they get an advantage over the rest.

If you don't want a picture fine, but the photographer (whether we like it or not) is part of the course.

I don't mind so much at the smaller shows, but at big shows, with big name photographers, there is no reason in my mind to ask them to leave the ring.

Philosopher

Apr. 26, 2009, 07:30 PM

Of course it is always the photographer's fault! Well except for when it's my mom's fault. Or the trainer's fault. Or the horse's fault. Or the management's fault.

One thing is for certain: It's definitely not my fault!

giddybiddy

Apr. 26, 2009, 10:16 PM

Well...my non-horsey Dad is my horse show photographer and has been for the past 5 years, and he's yet to spook a horse. Honestly, he's kinda of scared of them, so he keeps his distance and just has an AWESOME stalker-esque zoom lens that's roughly the length of my arm :P If we're in an indoor, it's never been anything that couldn't just be photographed outside at a different show, you know? It's not like I'm doing indoor finals or anything LOL! But he's actually a lot better than a lot of the "professional" photographers I've seen at shows. :yes:

98% of my horse show pictures were taken by him. Go Dad! You can check 'em out if you want...webshots in my sig line :D

Hocus Focus

Apr. 27, 2009, 02:14 AM

This thread stirs interesting points much of which I have heard before. I think the percentage of actual complaints is insignificant considering the volume of individuals one encounters at shows.

In perhaps 150 + trips a day, often it is several days before the first complaint appears, a rather insignificant number in the big picture. However, for some odd reason the one face in the crowd always leaves an impression, so for those of you delivering or receiving, remember politeness on both parties has its merit.

Just the other day at a show an issue of the color "red" came into play, now my understanding is that horses are for the most part color blind, but if the owner finds a color objectionable to their particular horse this becomes a legitimate complaint? Or are horses color blind to just "some" colors? I also believe we relay our neurosis and the wiser of the trainer/riders seem to carry as little baggage as possible when showing. Horses yes are sensitive animals and do react to levels of emotions.

That one was not directed at me personally. I don't much care for Red myself (except perhaps that it is the main color on my country's flag and it also represents first place in some countries, Canada for one, and I did find it a bit funny to have a color be an issue. I also recall shows where Red was more or less the theme color, the Atlantic Winter Fair for instance with its Rothmans sponsored Grand Prix, a thing of the past now. I think a year or so ago I heard a similar complaint over the color bright yellow, both seemed to be by people who very animate about their point and I often wondered how valid they may have been, with all due respect.

I don't see the need to make reference to company names or personal individuals in this thread so please speak generally, and I will try to as well. I am hoping to help some see where the grey area is in the relationship between horse show photographer and the exhibitor.

I have worked both on and off course. It seems the west coast folks are far more accepting of photographers in the ring and have had little to no complaint. Horses seem to be fine if as noted the photographer is visible and not in any direct line of passage, and does not make sudden decisions or rash movements. The cameras and lenses are perhaps objectionable to the sensitive horses and thus some common sense need apply on an individual basis. I doubt most photographers set out specifically to irritate the exhibitor but ocassionally we are all subject to error and probably need to keep that in mind as a preventative measure, particularly on the more important classes.

I can recall one incident where on course shooting I lost my bearings and found myself in a direct path of a horse at a full gallop, luckily I was able to remove myself in short order without having to make a deliberate lurch and only a small apology was needed as it had no affect on outcome. Others may or may not have been so lucky. That one was definitely my fault, and if one does not take care to prevent these things, one does not find themselves welcomed in the ring. And yes I have seen ring crew who seemed lost in the moment but a word or warning is usually all that is needed to rectify the situation and I like most the environment where each and all keep an eye out for one another.

I think through this we begin to understand more. We all have to learn to get along.

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou

Apr. 27, 2009, 03:59 AM

I once had a horse I was riding take off with me, bucking like a broc out of the chute, when a photographer took a flash picture of us.

The photographer had been taking pictures all day, in the dark-ish indoor ring. My horse was 17 years old and I didn't expect in the slightest he would care. I was cantering in a flat class when it happened.

Afterwards I had my trainer nab the "offending" photographer to take photos of me and my horse in the schooling ring until my horse stopped acting like a tool about the flash.

I was actually happy it happened, because it showed me something that I needed to teach my horse.

Just like being tolerant of clippers, water, standing still for the farrier or to be wormed, and loading into a trailer any issue created by a photographer is something that needs to be addressed with training. I see it as part of the show experience.

eqrider1234

Apr. 27, 2009, 01:55 PM

Actually funny this thread should come up. At the show I was at this weekend my horse spooked at the photographer, who happens to be a friend of mine so I wasnt mad at all, my horse should have been paying attention inside of the ring not out of it. She wasnt doing anything, merely just standing there, so if it had been just a regular person she would have spooked.

Honestly though if someone is doing something that is obviously going to spook your horse you have a right to get mad. Like when i was showing at zone finals ad a kid probably 9 or 10 was right outside the covered ring on the bleachers as as soon as i jumped the first jump of the outside line she began jumping screaming hopping up and down flailing her arms and caused my horse to stop in the middle of the outside line and then bolt to the inside of the ring terrified of the monster that was trying to eat her. The judge actually had to yell over to her to stop, needless to say i was pissed as i was having a perfect ride untill then, i wanted to rip that kids and her parents who obviously werent watching hers head off.

twobays

Apr. 27, 2009, 01:59 PM

I once had a horse I was riding take off with me, bucking like a broc out of the chute, when a photographer took a flash picture of us.

The photographer had been taking pictures all day, in the dark-ish indoor ring. My horse was 17 years old and I didn't expect in the slightest he would care. I was cantering in a flat class when it happened.

Afterwards I had my trainer nab the "offending" photographer to take photos of me and my horse in the schooling ring until my horse stopped acting like a tool about the flash.

I was actually happy it happened, because it showed me something that I needed to teach my horse.

Just like being tolerant of clippers, water, standing still for the farrier or to be wormed, and loading into a trailer any issue created by a photographer is something that needs to be addressed with training. I see it as part of the show experience.

I agree. Although I think photographers have to exercise a little common sense. I had one jump out from behind a standard (it actually made me flinch) and my horse ducked out of a combination. But in that case, its more of a "don't be a moron and jump out at people/horses" situation.

theroanypony

Apr. 27, 2009, 02:14 PM

At the last show I went to, there was a very low end photographer there. He seemed more of someone who had bought an expensive camera and just points and clicks. He was obnoxious and creepy and all of the photos were horrid. The main problem people had with him was that he went to the end of the ring (not sure why because it made for the worst backdrop), which was in the woods. Lots of people were complaining, and ponies were all over the place spooking. I believe one anger parent finally went down and asked him to vacate the woods. At one point I actually saw him leaning over the arena fence, trying to take a shot, he might as well have been in the ring. My pony is bomb proof, so he didn't mind, however it seemed highly unprofessional, and more "stalker" than horse show photographer.

I've never heard any complaints about our normal photographer spooking anyone's horses. Everyone loves him, and he does such a fabulous job. I think it really does have to do with how experienced the photographer is, rather than just people using them as an excuse.

Renn/aissance

Apr. 27, 2009, 02:59 PM

I have never had a problem with a photographer at a horse show, even with a spooky horse. I have had lots of problems with well-meaning family who let the flash go off straight into my horse's (and my!) eyes.

Spooks

Apr. 27, 2009, 03:18 PM

I do think that dealing with photographers is part of showing, but I also expect them to have good horse sense and not create a situation that most horses would find scary. My horse is fine with them, and all the people/horses/dogs around the rail. However, I did have an incident with a photographer at finals one year and it was a hard one to get over because I was laying down my best trip of the season. The photographer was set up near a shrubby area that was itself a spooky spot. When I entered the ring and jumped or cantered past him the first three times he was standing and I knew my horse had seen him and was fine. So on the last jump I was not expecting a spook...but apparently the guy had set up for the shot of the last fence by crouching in the shrubs, and was not visible to me or the horse until we were clearing the fence. Horse spooked big time on landing and buh-bye championship. I was annoyed that he crouched down in the shrubs like that, and my horse was not the only one that spooked at him (until the steward told him to move).

I was disappointed but that's life, right? I can't hold a grudge against photographers because of an isolated incident, when my horse could just as easily have spooked at a bird flying out of the shrubs, or a plastic bag blowing through them, etc etc. My horse has a little spook in him and I try to work with it as best I can and accept that once in a while he will find something scary. To his credit he jumped cleanly around that same ring in all his other rounds after that, so in my mind he was pretty good about it all.

DMK

Apr. 27, 2009, 03:59 PM

Just the other day at a show an issue of the color "red" came into play, now my understanding is that horses are for the most part color blind, but if the owner finds a color objectionable to their particular horse this becomes a legitimate complaint? Or are horses color blind to just "some" colors? I also believe we relay our neurosis and the wiser of the trainer/riders seem to carry as little baggage as possible when showing. Horses yes are sensitive animals and do react to levels of emotions.

I know they are supposed to be color blind, but maybe they see enough varying shades of gray that some colors do matter. I have a hunter who always takes a hard peek at red flowers. It's his thing. Now I will totally give you that my prior hunter's hang ups with green roll tops were entirely created by me. I own that one 150%. But I think I get a free pass on red flowers, if for no other reason than I look forward to having the first fence be ... red flowers! Because I know he is going to take a long hard peek at them, and I will be able to keep on riding "past" the distance, because he will give me that good backup. I think it makes a great "first jump impression". I just don't think I'm that talented that I can create such a workable neurosis in a horse. :lol:

As for photogs, they don't bother me, so either I've been lucky enough to be around the only good ones available or most of them are good. The only ones that get the DMK Death Wish are the Butt Shot variety, but I can promise you that shot has never made my horse spook, just the innocent viewers in the photo trailer.

The one and only time I had a problem with a "photographer" was at a local show, when a visitor from the adjacent hotel came to the ring in this giant alien bubble golf cart. I was just starting my second trip with a horse at his very first horse show ... in a covered ring ... with another ring adjacent to it ... so he was being a pretty good boy in spite of having a LOT to process, when she parked the alien golf cart with the giant bubble, complete with sun catching on it, directly at the end of the ring as I was coming up that line - away from the ingate - on my, did i mention it? - My Very Green Horse. He is mostly definitely giving that golf cart the evil eye as he approached the line, but he's a good boy and its just an alien death ship. It doesn't seem to have actual aliens in it... so he heads to the jump as pretty as you please. And then the alien, er I mean clueless tourist, steps out of the Alien Death Ship, I mean bubble golf cart, bathed in her alien deathlight (sunlight) glow, and takes out her alien death ray, er I mean her cheapo flash camera and shoots with flash directly into my horse's face. :eek:

It was a 5 line, as I recall. He was 17'2 and had a huge step. We did it in 8. With 7 one time tempi changes. Then zigged right on landing, I did a drunken perp walk to get back to the rail so I could hit the going home line ina reasonably straight approach. That one was a 6. He tried very hard to do it in a 4.

Needless to say, I spent the rest of the day and a few more unplanned classes trying to convince him that a) that end of the ring wasn't dangerous and b) all the other alien death ships he saw weren't horse eating death ships.

Sing Mia Song

Apr. 27, 2009, 04:09 PM

I have never, ever had a problem with a photographer in the ring, and I've ridden my share of spooks. I've had far more trouble with oblivious parents pushing baby stollers up my horse's butt. :rolleyes:

Jive

Apr. 27, 2009, 05:57 PM

My last horse show was the one and only time I've had an issue with a photographer. Photographer was in the middle of an indoor and as i was jumping a diagonal line coming towards the end of the arena he was at he took a picture and his flash was much brighter then I expected. Horse could care less but i was seeing camera flash stars until the corner and totally lost my focus, screwed my distance up to the next jump letting my horse slow to a turtles pace and then proceeded to have the worst fall I have had in a long time. Not the photographers fault, just really annoying and I asked him to not take anymore pictures for our next two rounds.

Later that day my friend doing a speed class, they had decided on doing this nice inside turn that involved going between these two other jumps. Right as she is making the turn photographer is walking right in front of her staring at his camera screen. The entire audience was yelling heads up at him, luckily he got out of the way just in time.

Trevelyan96

Apr. 27, 2009, 06:22 PM

Of course it is always the photographer's fault! Well except for when it's my mom's fault. Or the trainer's fault. Or the horse's fault. Or the management's fault.

One thing is for certain: It's definitely not my fault!

:lol::lol::lol: DD, is that you?

PonyHunter70

Apr. 27, 2009, 06:59 PM

I have had some very annoying experiences with photographers at shows. I took my pony to his very first show and it was rainy, snowy, and windy...of course. So they put us in the covered ring which scared him enough, but the photographer was also cold, so he decided to duck under the rail(which was solid so you couldn't see him when he was ducking) to escape the wind, and would pop up take a picture flash and everything and pop back down. He scared almost all the horses new and old. Those are the kind of photographers I think should not be allowed.
Though, I think the well trained photographers that are aware of the animals they are around are perfectly fine. If the horse is still afraid of this photographer, then they should work on this fear. Hunters are partly based on the calmness of the horse, so it is something the horse should be able to ignore. Or the photographer will just be another obstacle to separate the good from the best.

superpony123

Apr. 27, 2009, 09:28 PM

While I don't mind photographers in general at shows, some (and very few) are outrageously obnoxious, running around the course like a monkey. Scuse me, I'm trying to ride here. I just want to ride well, and if it means you leaving me without any pictures, then fine! Just get out of the damn ring! But otherwise, I don't generally mind photographers on the rail. It won't spook my pony (usually).

However I do know plenty of riders who are absolutely terrified of having a photographer shoot their round. One I know, lovely rider, but she's such a perfectionist, she'll have a great round and come out of the ring and start hysterically crying after leaving, because she chipped a jump or messed up some distance, etc. She's very hard on herself. It's too bad, because she usually has a great round. Nothing worth crying about!! She will get ridiculously nervous if there's a photographer and she usually asks them to not take pictures of her.

You might also have a very very green and spooky horse at it's first show, and you might not want the photographer running around getting shots--i mean, it's nice to have a picture, but i'd think you'd rather have your green bean go around the ring as comfortably as possible, leaving no room for extra spookiness where it can be avoided.

I don't think there's anything wrong with photographers. I like to take pictures at the shows too, but I back waaaay away from the rail whenever the horse is jumping something near me.

It's always the very few obnoxious ones who give the whole group the bad rep.

Anywho, Ive personally found plenty of other things much more spooky at shows :P ... loose dogs running into the ring while you are jumping, runaway screaming toddlers, LEAFBLOWERS (!!!), a tornado of leaves (you know those things? those random windy things that always blow big piles of leaves in little mini twisters ! hahaha)

Swale01

Apr. 27, 2009, 10:14 PM

I seem to have the opposite problem. I've been trying to get a nice photo of my horse over fences and this weekend the show photographer left in the middle of my division because 'it was getting late." I'd just be happy to get some good photos, even at the risk of a spook!

Spirit_Rider16

Apr. 27, 2009, 10:39 PM

I've never had problems with any of the photographers shooting my classes, and I'm pretty sure that even if my horse did spook at one, I'd blame myself before the photographer! My horse can be quite spooky, especially the first day at a show, and he's been distracted by god knows how many things outside of the ring. But it's certainly not the fault of whoever or whatever distracted my horse - unless they're doing something completely disrespectful.

Plus, I do the jumpers, so if my horse scoots a little it doesn't necessarily cost me the class. :D

Hocus Focus

Apr. 29, 2009, 07:15 AM

I am glad we had this little chat. While it is good to be looking for fab pics from the shows, the people who do the time behind the cameras are for the most part trying to do their best to make that happen standing for hours in the wind, hot sun, and even cold. While it may look glamorous to some, it is a long day.

Angles and light often determine decision making on where they are shooting from. They just don't go to that end zone alone just to spook your horse. Lenses and cameras nowadays usually put the photographer a fair distance from the subject. There are nice ways of dealing with the situation. If you see the photographer in a zone that may be problematic and know your horse is either very green or highly reactive, it is best to address it politely and before an incident may occur. Another way is to focus on diverting your horses attention more to you than to looking about for every excuse to disrespect you. The smartest most sensitive horses are usually the worst in this matter. They can also be the best so this is not meant as a criticism. I ocassionally see riders who are overhorsed and from the moment they enter, their entire trip is ever so slightly out of control. Tread lightly in this situation. The shooters who spend 10-12 hours non stop shooting at some of the marathon shows truly will not object if you ask them to sit this one out. They may even thank you.