Havok, the Cafe voting for Molina isn't going to change things in my eyes. I expect many people will just see the name Molina, look at the difference in counting statistics, and instantly assume that he was in fact better this season (when in fact that's not true at all). Both offensively and defensively, Gregg Zaun was better.

And DK, we're talking reality. The argument that originated last February with Havok, Phatferd, and myself had nothing to do with who had the greater fantasy value. Actually, going way back, it also had nothing to do with who was better. It had to do with my assumption that Molina wouldn't play as much as they were expecting him to (I ended up being right about that side of things).

mweir145 wrote:Havok, the Cafe voting for Molina isn't going to change things in my eyes. I expect many people will just see the name Molina, look at the difference in counting statistics, and instantly assume that he was in fact better this season (when in fact that's not true at all). Both offensively and defensively, Gregg Zaun was better.

And DK, we're talking reality. The argument that originated last February with Havok, Phatferd, and myself had nothing to do with who had the greater fantasy value. Actually, going way back, it also had nothing to do with who was better. It had to do with my assumption that Molina wouldn't play as much as they were expecting him to (I ended up being right about that side of things).

I actually believe it was started with you not believing Toronto would sign Molina, that he wasn't needed with Zaun there, and how much both were to play.

mweir145 wrote:Havok, the Cafe voting for Molina isn't going to change things in my eyes. I expect many people will just see the name Molina, look at the difference in counting statistics, and instantly assume that he was in fact better this season (when in fact that's not true at all). Both offensively and defensively, Gregg Zaun was better.

And DK, we're talking reality. The argument that originated last February with Havok, Phatferd, and myself had nothing to do with who had the greater fantasy value. Actually, going way back, it also had nothing to do with who was better. It had to do with my assumption that Molina wouldn't play as much as they were expecting him to (I ended up being right about that side of things).

I actually believe it was started with you not believing Toronto would sign Molina, that he wasn't needed with Zaun there, and how much both were to play.

No, I don't think I ever believed he wouldn't sign there. I generally believe what Ken Rosenthal says regarding pending trades/signings. I believed he wouldn't be a good signing if he was in fact going to be signed for the rumoured price (and for the record, I still don't see the point in the addition).

I just think its clear that Molina was better. If Zaun had played more than maybe, but he didn't. Molina had close to his career year. Molina caught more games, therefore, the chances of fielding mistakes is greater, and he still had a better fielding %. If Zaun was better...why wasn't he the starter? Oh yeah, because Zaun is not as good. OBP% is so overrated. Guy takes a walk, then goes back after the inning is over without scoring or knocking anybody in. Jason LaRue must of had a better year because he had better ratio numbers, higher OBP%, in limited play, with the better glove than Valentin, not true. Zaun = Larue, Valentin = Molina in this case.

Havok1517 wrote:I just think its clear that Molina was better. If Zaun had played more than maybe, but he didn't. Molina had close to his career year. Molina caught more games, therefore, the chances of fielding mistakes is greater, and he still had a better fielding %. If Zaun was better...why wasn't he the starter? Oh yeah, because Zaun is not as good. OBP% is so overrated. Guy takes a walk, then goes back after the inning is over without scoring or knocking anybody in. Jason LaRue must of had a better year because he had better ratio numbers, higher OBP%, in limited play, with the better glove than Valentin, not true. Zaun = Larue, Valentin = Molina in this case.

I already posted a response to this post in the other thread.

And Havok, you do realize that whatever the result of this thread is, it doesn't determine who was better right? That's why I don't understand the purpose of this poll.

Havok1517 wrote:I just think its clear that Molina was better. If Zaun had played more than maybe, but he didn't. Molina had close to his career year. Molina caught more games, therefore, the chances of fielding mistakes is greater, and he still had a better fielding %. If Zaun was better...why wasn't he the starter? Oh yeah, because Zaun is not as good. OBP% is so overrated. Guy takes a walk, then goes back after the inning is over without scoring or knocking anybody in. Jason LaRue must of had a better year because he had better ratio numbers, higher OBP%, in limited play, with the better glove than Valentin, not true. Zaun = Larue, Valentin = Molina in this case.

I already posted a response to this post in the other thread.

And Havok, you do realize that whatever the result of this thread is, it doesn't determine who was better right? That's why I don't understand the purpose of this poll.

How does it not? If more people think 1 person is right than that person probably is (although the world was thought to be flat). Let the masses speak. If you think a girl is pretty, and 8 out of 10 guys think she's ugly, you can still think she's hot. But that doesn't change the fact that she's probably pretty ugly. LOL jk

Havok1517 wrote:I just think its clear that Molina was better. If Zaun had played more than maybe, but he didn't. Molina had close to his career year. Molina caught more games, therefore, the chances of fielding mistakes is greater, and he still had a better fielding %. If Zaun was better...why wasn't he the starter? Oh yeah, because Zaun is not as good. OBP% is so overrated. Guy takes a walk, then goes back after the inning is over without scoring or knocking anybody in. Jason LaRue must of had a better year because he had better ratio numbers, higher OBP%, in limited play, with the better glove than Valentin, not true. Zaun = Larue, Valentin = Molina in this case.

I already posted a response to this post in the other thread.

And Havok, you do realize that whatever the result of this thread is, it doesn't determine who was better right? That's why I don't understand the purpose of this poll.

How does it not? If more people think 1 person is right than that person probably is (although the world was thought to be flat). Let the masses speak. If you think a girl is pretty, and 8 out of 10 guys think she's ugly, you can still think she's hot. But that doesn't change the fact that she's probably pretty ugly. LOL jk

Zaun's pretty ugly.

So you're saying voters can't be biased and vote for the player they've heard more about or know?

It happens all the time in everything. Carlos Delgado didn't win the MVP in 2003 because he played for the Toronto Blue Jays, a team that most of the writers who voted knew absolutely nothing about because they didn't watch their games. He had better numbers then the eventual winner, Alex Rodriguez.

The majority opinion is not always the correct one. Polling the cafe on a topic isn't going to change a thing. If you want to prove something to me, you should actually do it using statistics, not who the public might pick.

Havok1517 wrote:I just think its clear that Molina was better. If Zaun had played more than maybe, but he didn't. Molina had close to his career year. Molina caught more games, therefore, the chances of fielding mistakes is greater, and he still had a better fielding %. If Zaun was better...why wasn't he the starter? Oh yeah, because Zaun is not as good. OBP% is so overrated. Guy takes a walk, then goes back after the inning is over without scoring or knocking anybody in. Jason LaRue must of had a better year because he had better ratio numbers, higher OBP%, in limited play, with the better glove than Valentin, not true. Zaun = Larue, Valentin = Molina in this case.

I already posted a response to this post in the other thread.

And Havok, you do realize that whatever the result of this thread is, it doesn't determine who was better right? That's why I don't understand the purpose of this poll.

How does it not? If more people think 1 person is right than that person probably is (although the world was thought to be flat). Let the masses speak. If you think a girl is pretty, and 8 out of 10 guys think she's ugly, you can still think she's hot. But that doesn't change the fact that she's probably pretty ugly. LOL jk

Zaun's pretty ugly.

So you're saying voters can't be biased and vote for the player they've heard more about or know?

It happens all the time in everything. Carlos Delgado didn't win the MVP in 2003 because he played for the Toronto Blue Jays, a team that most of the writers who voted knew absolutely nothing about because they didn't watch their games. He had better numbers then the eventual winner, Alex Rodriguez.

The majority opinion is not always the correct one. Polling the cafe on a topic isn't going to change a thing. If you want to prove something to me, you should actually do it using statistics, not who the public might pick.

In this case, its like persuading a Yankee fan that ARod is better than Jeter. Your own organization knows Molina is better (using the stats minus OBP%) its easy to see imo. Sorry Delgado didn't win MVP but players on winning teams get more attention. As you know, those teams tend to be coast teams with a large population and payroll these days. Zaun is pretty much a lifetime backup with some skills to spell a starter in my view.