Heaven Hell The Same

It has been suggested that heaven and hell are the same experience, standing full in the face of God's Love, without anything to get in the way. For the saved it will be glory, for the damned, eternal torment. Please Discuss.

Ha. Match made...in... He can do part of a catholic thing. You'll have to convert at some point. Regarding your first lessons from PaPa, you ate the crayolas! A fortunate early marks failure.You've been sent to juvie, for eating your work tools and arguing with your teachers. Children of the adversary always expelled. 1Ti 5:13 withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. 1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

Wrong again, Trav.And when people say WRONG things about the Roman Catholic Church, I'm going to point that out, too....I was born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama.---Cluny on 5/7/15

Hey I usually like people from Birmingham! Wish you'd stayed there. Did you say some time ago you live in San Francisco now?

Carefully so far, I've never posted anything non-factual about the "roman universal" Cult. Since all we have is a vague/closeted "perception" of you. One has only their perceptions to go on with your vague, one line sarcastic replies. Perception is truth of your creation, until your finally provoked to come out.

\\I always figured he'd immigrated from the outer edge of Kazakhstan by his zealotry of orthodox superiority.\\

If you knew as much as you thought you did, you'd know that Kazakhstan is mostly mahometan.---Cluny on 5/6/15

Actually looked up before hand where the orthodoc's were the most. Then found a far flung corner I imagined you from. Toss up between Kyrgyzstan, Belarus, Serbia or a made up name. Knew you would check so left you something to work with.Hey we both learned something. You didn't know either.Zec_7:14 But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. ...

True, the Saints and the Damned will experience GOD and HIS Glory throughout all Eternity, but in totally different ways.

The Saints will live Forever in GOD's Holy Presence, Glory and Light.

But the Damned will face GOD's full Wrath, Judgment and Condemnation for all Eternity.

GOD's Judgment against them will be HIS Glory before them.

The Damned shall be separated from all of GOD's Good Characteristics, such as HIS Love, Mercy, Grace, Blessing, Favour, Protection, Kindness, Provision, etc.While experiencing HIS Fiery Wrath and utter rejection.

The Saints will dwell Forever on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-2) while the Damned will forever dwell in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 14:9-11, 20:10-15, 21:8).

You said: always figured he'd immigrated from the outer edge of Kazakhstan by his zealotry of orthodox superiority.

This is because you seem to fancy yourself as Superman - leaping to far conclusions without any evidence.

I guess you never read his many posts that mentioned that he had grown up in a Baptist church?

Listen instead of jumping. To participate in a blog you begin you participation with a sarcastic, denying, or questioning observation. When this bounces back on you you are offended. One thing you might do is quit defending the scripturally indefensible.

I am disappointed (not offended) by personal insults. I am also disappointed by fallacious leaps of illogic.

Trav, I don't get the joke. what did you mean when you said that Cluny comes from Rome GA?---richa8957 on 5/6/15

It was an inside poke... him being orthodox'd to the bone for years even kind of "Anti-Catholic" at times. Then the "roman" catholics started posting. So he switches (Roman) and defends every doctrine the "roman" church or participants think or do. See where he has too...they have ecumenical relations and similar family cult practices.(Surprise! Cluny's from the Bible Belt!)I always figured he'd immigrated from the outer edge of Kazakhstan by his zealotry of orthodox superiority. But, he swings both ways now between catholics and orthos.

You stated the parables were fictional. Too broad of statement, it bit you.The parables live and are seen and realized in real life. Christ opened up the Apostles eyes about them...when they asked. Mat 13:10 ... Why ...Trav

Forgive me, Trav, but aren't some (if not all) of the parables fiction? When Jesus tells us a story, such as the Publican and the Pharisee, is He actually thinking of two particular men? Rather, He is pointing out the difference between the two, so that the disciple can see, and turn away from such action in the future

Richa,The Born Again Buddhist,Saved by the grace of God,and totally in love with Jesus!

Trav:You said: If you don't know either way then you couldn't declare they are "fictional". ---StrongAxe on 5/6/15

Listen instead of jumping. To participate in a blog you begin you participation with a sarcastic, denying, or questioning observation. When this bounces back on you you are offended. One thing you might do is quit defending the scripturally indefensible. But, then this is one way of learning they are indefensible. Don't we all learn?? You stated the parables were fictional. Too broad of statement, it bit you. The parables live and are seen and realized in real life. Christ opened up the Apostles eyes about them...when they asked. Mat 13:10 ... Why ...

Hypocrites and the iniquitous/unjust will go from "dust to dust" (cursed), but WE (if we truly are regenerated/"SEALED" by God's Spirit) who have a heavenly spirit/attitude lifestyle are GUARANTEED "ETERNAL LIFE" ("salvation" has already been accomplished).

The "salvation" that we've been taught to think of as MESSIAHSHIP ONLY is actually only PURIFICATION OF THE FLESH (Jesus made "purification for sin" in Hebrews 1).

Hebrews 9:14 shows that we ALSO need purification OF THE CONSCIENCE by living as God's Spirit tells us (to be peaceful and true).

Many things that are spiritual/divine in nature cannot be sufficiently expressed or explained/understood with human language...God's SPIRIT/TONGUES"....WE humans cannot truly speak that way).

"Heaven" refers more to a HEAVENLY lifestyle (MIND/attitude). "Hell" is where a person experience vengeance/retaliation from their conscience and is tormented by the results of their own iniquity. Their conscience "WEEPS"...they grind/"gnash" their teeth "with the hypocrites, there men will weep and gnash their teeth" means that you shouldn't violate the dictates of your conscience or you will be a hypocrite).

No. I said Jesus frequently spoke in fictional parables,...We really have no way of determining...---StrongAxe on 5/5/15

You got in over your head again and you are drowning in your own denials now. If you don't know either way then you couldn't declare they are "fictional". Since you have nothing to foundation them with in life or scripture and we do, they very well can be based on actual events or events that will happen. Some that have some that will. Like the Ten Virgins representing the North House of Israel.Mar_4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

(So cluny immigrated from a corner of the Bible Belt. Must have been (Rome. Ga).

/No, I am not saying that these things NECESSARILY didn't happen at all, just that, as parables, they MIGHT not be factual.\-StrongAxe on 5/1/15-But that is exactly what you said earlier./Jesus himself frequently spoke using parables (that were fiction)...\-StrongAxe on 4/26/15 -But I am glad to see that we can all agree that, just because it is a parable, it doesn't have to be fictional.My point of view is that none of them were, although they may have metaphors in them.Metaphors are vastly different than parables, though both communicate thoughts and ideas.We really have no way of determining either way. Our finite minds may think something is illogical or extraordinary, but such is life after the curse.

\\2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, pray,...and will heal their land.\\This is a promise to Israel...Since when was the USA called by God's name?---Cluny on 5/1/15

The "Christian West" was known Globally. Even in the dark corner you immigrated from. Israel was scattered. Are around you now.Joh_11:52 not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Amo_9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.Gal 6:7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked: ...

The People who follow GOD in the UTnited States are part of the true Israel of GOD. The people of the entire world belong to GOD.

The words of the Bible all of the Bible are for all people. 2Tim 3:16.

We have to correctly understand them. But they are for us.

Psa 1:1,2

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

You said: You're telling me that these things don't happen, just as a person can't be a vine, nor swallow a camel?

No, I am not saying that these things NECESSARILY didn't happen at all, just that, as parables, they MIGHT not be factual. The very fact that Jesus frequently spoke in metaphors indicates that he was very capable of speaking truths that were not actually factual.

\\2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek my face, turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.\\

StrongAxe, you are still using figures of speech, such as "swallowing a camel", "I am the True Vine", and others to explain away "Behold, a sower went forth to sow"(Mat13:3), "a man which sowed good seed in his field"(Mat 13:24), a man and mustard seed(v31),a woman and leaven(v33), and so forth.You're telling me that these things don't happen, just as a person can't be a vine, nor swallow a camel?I don't think I'm the one confusing literal and figurative here.Mat 15:13-14 is a parable with figures of speech in it(obviously), but none-the-less is not fiction.Eze 24 has a parable, a real example conveying a deeper meaning. the pot is real, but it is also an allegory for the nation.

Claiming that they are made up (fictional) is pitting your knowledge against God's.---micha9344 on 4/30/15

Amen 100%. Reality for me: I've been the prodigal son, my debts forgiven. They are reality situations and could have came from or expect a reality. Like prophecies are a reality if they come true.Considering what Christ said about the parables, still applicable today. Christ still had to open/expound to the apostles...a key thing. Mar 4:10 when he was alone,... the twelve "asked of him" the parable. .Mar_4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, "all" these things are done in parables:

You said: Neither of you have any idea whether these parables (stories to convey a deeper truth) were brought from historical reference or not.

Neither do you.

Claiming that they are made up (fictional) is pitting your knowledge against God's.

No, it is taking the Bible at its word by calling many of Jesus's stories parables, which are allegories, which are allegorical archetypes, and not necessarily factual. Do you believe Jesus was a vegetable? Because taking everything Jesus said as factual requires you to.

We all understand allegory and metaphor as legitimate linguistic constructs - except biblical literalists frequently think Biblical language works differently from all others.

Using euphemisms as examples for allegory is rather odd, wouldn't you think?If one desires a key word, lets focus on the word "certain."In context the definition is "of a specific but unspecified character, quantity, or degree."/The parable of a King forgiving a debt is not factual.\-Samuelbb7 on 4/29/15 One would have to have all knowledge to make such a statement. Even if it sounds extraordinary to a finite mind, Jesus, who has this knowledge, can use historical events as analogies.Neither of you have any idea whether these parables (stories to convey a deeper truth) were brought from historical reference or not.Claiming that they are made up (fictional) is pitting your knowledge against God's.

2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek my face, turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Matt 13:27: Would be factual in life and factual in parable. Seed still and even more so in the past was almost always contaminated with weed seed, unless it is carefully screened.

Dictionary defines parable as "a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.". The key word here is "allegory".

Jesus frequently spoke truths that were not factual. Pharisees did not have throats wide enough to swallow camels. They were mammals (humans), not reptiles (vipers). Even though Jesus was "the Vine", he was not a plant. There was no furniture made of Jesus wood, nor wine made of Jesus grapes.

Luke 17:7-10But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken, and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

I also would like to know which were fictional and how SA knows they are.---micha9344 on 4/29/15

Parables related to life events. GOD knowing every fact of everyone's life could use actual life events or speak from future. The word "Parable" can be a proverb or comparison.Mar_12:1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, set an hedge about it, digged a place for the winefat, built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. Mar 12:12 ...for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: ...Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

If someone says the enemies of God will stand full in the face of God at the end of time they do not know the scriptures.---trey on 4/24/15

Well, as noted...it wasn't scripture the person was referring too. He mentions where "he was coming from". These imaginary seeds were planted by the author he recommends. Not scripture.A run amok monk.He won't be standing either.Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,

I stated "should". Probably had you in mind, can't remember.They have led me to scripture shining a reproving light on you. Your witness, is in what you have not stood for or defend for in scripture. Versus worldly things you embrace and kneel before.

Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

2Pe_1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

I used my real name when I joined these blogs, but somebody else was using it, so I chose another.

You said: you are an "Axe" of a kind defending "abominational" platforms.

Which ones? As I pointed out several times, saying "The Bible says/does not say X" or "Accepting X while rejecting Y is inconsistent" says nothing about my own personal opinions about X or Y, but many are acrobats, always jumping to conclusions.

Trav:You said to Monk_Brendan: I've seen no one here that dislikes you.Your frequent use of spurious name-calling ...might easily lead people to other conclusions.---StrongAxe on 4/25/15

GOD, Christ and his scriptures should lead us.Getting older I have less patience for titles. Preachers, Priests, Reverends, denoms etc. More efficient to just cut to the meat. If a man calls his self lets say, a Strong Axe...ones "conclusion" is the title representative. This was a fair "chop" but, weakened by knowledge you are an "Axe" of a kind defending "abominational" platforms. Truth is not pretty sometimes. It doesn't make it not truth. You can't use "UglyAxe".

Speaking of wasting time, I've decided to no longer engage people like Trav & Kathr in conversation...---Leon on 4/26/15

You've blessed us. Will be less embarrassing for your un-scriptural positions. Since you are fishing for a fight by this post we'll see what you are baiting lines for. We surely appreciate your humility in declaring posted scriptures waste time with you. (I'd already figured it out) but, you do make good opportunity's to expose posers.Psa_120:3 What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue? Luk_6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

You said: 'Axe: C.S. Lewis was indeed a great Christian apologist & writer. It's just that, at my age, I choose not to let fiction consume what's left of my time.

Some fiction can be much more educating and edifying than non-fiction. Many of Lewis's novels are like this. Jesus himself frequently spoke using parables (that were fiction), and we find some of his most profound teachings are of this form.

///...C. S. Lewis (the much-loved Christian apologist and author) wrote a fantasy novel called The Great Divorce...///

'Axe: C.S. Lewis was indeed a great Christian apologist & writer. It's just that, at my age, I choose not to let fiction consume what's left of my time.

Speaking of wasting time, I've decided to no longer engage people like Trav & Kathr in conversation since neither apparently are not in their right minds. Pray for their deliverance, but don't feed into their self-absorbed madness. Like the "it'll never happen" fictional tourist from hell, they're miserable in heavenly surroundings, so LEAVE THEM ALONE!

C. S. Lewis (the much-loved Christian apologist and author) wrote a fantasy novel called The Great Divorce, that dealt with a group of tourists from hell going on a tour of heaven, then quickly returning because they found the goodness and reality there too painful to bear.

Trav:

You said to Monk_Brendan: I've seen no one here that dislikes you.You are likeable type of guy. It's an irony that the those who tell you the truth you'd call your enemy.

Your frequent use of spurious name-calling (including "mid-evil" in this very message) might easily lead people to other conclusions.

Leon, RIVER OF FIRE looks at scriptures to come up with its conclusion. I'm not saying this book is the last word on Orthodox eschatology (it was actually a speech delivered before Orthodox bishops, priests, and faithful), but it provides food for thought--even if you disagree with his conclusions.

No, I do not use the KJV. I have been using it to quote from on these blogs because some people would find more reason to dislike me.---Monk_Brendan on 4/16/15

I've seen no one here that dislikes you. You are likeable type of guy. It's an irony that the those who tell you the truth you'd call your enemy. Gal_4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Amo_3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed? Just because your opinion doesn't agree with my scriptures doesn't make me dislike you as a person. It's your mid-evil church one shouldn't yoke with.

Who has "suggested" that heaven & hell are the same experience Monk? How does that square with what Scripture says? Surely, that's where this conversation should've began since Christians must always consider the source of statements & doctrines. (John 10) Whose voice is active? Does God indirectly suggest or does He directly state facts?

Soul sleep which is part of Conditional-ism. Points to the fact the dead are not truly dead but asleep and will be awaken in the Resurrections of the Dead. The Righteous to eternal life. The wicked to the second death. Where they will truly be dead.

Rom 6:23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?A dichotomy is produced when doctrines, such as soul sleep, are used to interpret the Bible.The confusion between physical and spiritual, even in regards to death, is an underlying factor.

I didn't say eternal life.It Is actually though by many peoples choice Mat.7 v 13, their names are not found in the book of life will be in torment throughout eternity. And it's their choice, due to their disobedience.

Cluny : There's no such thing as departed spirits ! (as transformed humans) Every time you exhale (pneuma/spirit) departs ! Just continue to be in good spirits ! Surely you can tell the difference between spirit & spirit!

Correct Cluny those three words are translated hell. But also sometimes the Grave.

Gehenna had dead bodies burned there. They did not toss living people in it to burn. Tarturaos is also translated outer darkness.

The Wicked are not promised immortal life in any form.

I must needs go home by the way of the cross,Theres no other way but this,I shall neer get sight of the Gates of Light,If the way of the cross I miss. Refrain:The way of the cross leads home,The way of the cross leads home,It is sweet to know, as I onward go,The way of the cross leads home.

If you don't define "hell" how can you compare it to heaven ? Our English word "hell" comes from the German "hoelle" to bury, cover with earth. In Germany they "Holle" their potatoes ! In the KJV the Hebrew word sheol is translated 31 times as grave and 31 times untranslated as hell !