Wed. 3/20/13 9:20am
Benjamen Walker:
The DJ nightmare I had last night! I lost all the Marathon money!

Wed. 3/20/13 9:23am
pierre:
btw; great interview with Gary Panter last show !
very inspiring.

Wed. 3/20/13 9:24am
RevolutionRabbitNov63:
'The Story of English' says one reason English spelling makes as little sense as it does is because whoever first printed a word set the precedent. 'Night' comes from German 'nicht' - so spelled n-i-g-h-t - so explain *that* to the English student...

Wed. 3/20/13 9:27am
DCE:
good morning. Glad for Ken getting some r&r. That fella works hard!

Wed. 3/20/13 9:48am
G:
@Hugo: That Story of English quote is poppy, not scientific.

The real issue is that spelling gets decided based on pronunciation, but after pronunciation subsequently changes the spelling may be retained out of inertia or respect for tradition or to make it easier to read old books (spelling stays consistent over centuries).

In Chaucer's time (late 1300s) there was a sound in night before the t very like the last sound in "loch." By Shakespeare's day (late 1500s) it was gone. But the spelling lives on.

Wed. 3/20/13 9:49am
pierre:
I saw the Gary Panter Dal Tokyo in a library in Paris (le Regard Moderne), I so want to purchase it, looks like a sort of masterpiece to me.

G: That was a concise and clear explanation. It's nice that there are slight reformations in spelling from time to time though, as in Sweden in 1906...

Caryn: Det är vi väl alla?

Wed. 3/20/13 9:59am
Snortley:
Most other cultures have reformed their spelling, and grammar, too. Anglo cultures have done no such thing, though there was an early American movement in that direction.

English may not have been reformed for a couple of reasons. For one, xenophobia; the desire to estrange outsiders through a language difficult to learn. Then there is social stratification; when language mastery is hard, only the more educated upper classes fully master the standard dialect, and the lower classes are marked and separated by their own differing usage.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:01am
Asheville Jon:
a vacation in rehab? i can think of better places to go on a vacation.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:01am
Hugo:
In American English you occasionally see "nite" instead of "night" which is of course closer to actual pronunciation. French certainly is an example of inertia.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:01am
AbeSomething:
Just tuned in, surprised and pleased to find BW on the air! A good morning gets better.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:02am
G:
@nah: Yeah, people have been advocating spelling reform in English for two centuries. Noah Webster changed some English spelling in the US nearly 200 years ago. But the preponderance of people seem to believe there is a right way to write, and a wrong way to write, and functionally that makes people conservative about spelling. It'll have to change at some point, but that could be several more centuries.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:05am
G:
Exactly, French spelling and pronuciation are even farther apart than English.

Spanish and Portuguese, for example, have national academies that study this stuff and make changes slowly every few decades.

Remember when the German academy pronounced what will ultimately be a death sentence on the ß in the 90s? (It's being replaced by ss, which is essentially what ß is.)

Wed. 3/20/13 10:06am
Benjamen Walker:
Michael - have fun at the Nick Cave show where is it?

Wed. 3/20/13 10:06am
Hugo:
Another example is the American practice of dropping the u, labor and not labour, again closer to pronuncitation.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:08am
Snortley:
French spelling is very consistent. The so-called "silent" letters are not really that; they are "diacritic," indicating features of the vowels before them.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:08am
northguineahills:
Joseph Shipley's "The Origins of English Words: A Discursive Dictionary of Indo-European Roots." Is a good read on English etymology, although it's presented more of a reference then a straight read.

♥
Wed. 3/20/13 10:10am
Michael:
Benjamen - it's at the Orpheum. My spousal unit is really looking forward to it. We will have completed the triple play of Bad Seeds, Grinderman and Dirty 3 over the last few years.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:10am
nah:
@G: I can just imagine all the problems with an attempt to "definitely" change spelling in a language as massive as English.

What was really the point of the phasing out the ß? I always found it kind of a charming thing. Looks cool on street signs etc. Is it that it isn't as easy to understand for a newbie/foreigner as just ss?

Wed. 3/20/13 10:10am
G:
French spelling reflects old pronunciation, which is why the silent letters help you with the ones that are still pronounced. In essence, understanding the silent letters is understanding how French phonology changed over centuries (sounds before or after other certain sounds stopped being pronounced) :)

Wed. 3/20/13 10:11am
fred:
@Snortley: French spelling is consistent? I guess so, in a "consistently inconsistent" way

Wed. 3/20/13 10:12am
RevolutionRabbitNov63:
Were the French the first to call Pop/Rock 'Yeh Yeh'
- & was that before or after Beatles?
- I always think of the Beatles picking up 'Yeah Yeah Yeah' in Germany (Ya Ya)...
- It is of course an Ancient syllable we might relate to Jah & Yahweh & African precedents??..

Wed. 3/20/13 10:13am
G:
@nah: There are always two sides to changing spelling, to change or not to change, and they are constantly battling it out in slow motion to some always provisional conclusion that will get reargued later. It's exactly like politics, or vice versa :)

Wed. 3/20/13 10:14am
fred:
@nah: they also dropped the umlaut, for instance "ö" should now be spelled "oe". Hours of administrative fun ensued for people who end up having their names spelled differently depending on when a document was made. Think how fun it would be explaining that to your local TSA drone

Wed. 3/20/13 10:15am
Caryn:
I kinda hated the idea to phase out the ß. It was relatively easy, and actually easier to remember in spelling than remembering whether something has one or two s letters in it. It also made it easy to differentiate between das and daß. But we'll see if anything comes of the various spelling changes they suggested in the 90s. About 15 years gone, and can't say I've noticed much changing... Are they teaching the new spelling in schools like they said they would?

Wed. 3/20/13 10:16am
Snortley:
Yes, very consistent. Almost always, the pronunciation is clear from the spelling. One exception is "ll," which represents two different sounds. Also, the circumflex indicates nothing about the sound of the word, and is gradually being phased out.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:21am
pierre:
[I love those discussion about language, but I can't really participate since my spelling (both english and french) are terrible.]

Wed. 3/20/13 10:21am
G:
@RR63: I didn't follow the German orthographic change in close detail, but I would bet a major consideration was indeed to make the use of letters/characters more uniform in the EU, ultimately

Wed. 3/20/13 10:22am
Hugo:
Due to internet standardisation, elkjøp, meaning elbuy, a chain of shops for electric articles, has become elkjop, which means absolutely nothing!

Wed. 3/20/13 10:23am
dcpat:
anyone notice the irony of "esszet" not having an esszet in it?

Wed. 3/20/13 10:23am
northguineahills:
I still think we should reintroduce 'ð' and 'þ'.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:25am
G:
The Germans more or less got rid of blackletter ("gothic") lettering earlier in the 20th century. Hitler loved the more uniquely German gothic lettering, and it was hugely used in that era.

Gothic script goes back to how medieval manuscripts were handwritten in northern, German-speaking areas of Europe, and the fonts more used now come from Italian Renaissance typefaces based on more south-European handwriting.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:25am
Cheri Pi:
Pierre, what RTD said, when you can type 65 fathoms per minute no one has the right to complain.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:25am
Caryn:
@nah: my point exactly. The Academy decided on these changes in the late 90s. I was already pissed off then. But gotta say, years and years have passed and I haven't seen German papers or signs changing their spelling. Again, I'm not sure if kids are being taught the new rules or whether this was an idea that is not going to become reality. I especially see no point in removing the umlaut. Ö is clearly pronounced like ö, whereas oe can be pronounced different ways. That change would actually cause more problems with pronunciation, not reduce problems. And seems like sucking up to English-speaking tourists etc.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:26am
RevolutionRabbitNov63:
Orpheum is big enuff ( < sp!) that seating makes a difference - but not so big you can't get the vibe.
...Hard for me to think of seeing Cave & Bad Seeds as anything but pretty exciting - !
...Altho' I've learned that hyping self for weeks pre-show by obsessing over their Very Greatest Moments can be self-defeating...

@Hugo: one of my local towns, Hörby, has the official website horby.se.

For those of you not familiar with Scandinavian languages, that becomes "whore village".

@Caryn: When I took German classes at a Swedish uni it was kind of a lottery which words would be OK to use ß in. On the umlaut I really don't get it either. Most people who don't speak German, Swedish etc just use the letter underneath the dots anyway...

Wed. 3/20/13 10:30am
glenn:
it's also destroyed a few political careers.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:31am
Cheri Pi:
This song makes me want to have a cocktail while enjoying the setting sun over the city's skyline.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:31am
G:
@dcpat: Exactly, we don't have a national language academy/committee, a freedom which ironically means that things stay the same and don't change, because unless everyone agrees or someone with authority imposes something, things keep going on inertia...

Wed. 3/20/13 10:35am
Pale Son:
So, pretty much the same as the ö sound?

Wed. 3/20/13 10:35am
pierre:
I might know how to type fast, but it get cold down in the bottom of the ocean, therefore, my tentacles are a bit stiff (that might come out wrong; i wouldn't know…)

Wed. 3/20/13 10:37am
Hugo:
Yes, ø and ö is pronounced in the same way.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:38am
RevolutionRabbitNov63:
Being a Tolkien fan (who I'd rather invoke than Hitler - the Nazis had their own little version of everything & who cares) helps maintain interest here (he was a Medievalist in the 20th Cent. basically) - but only somewhat...I suspect he'd have a few choice words (in a few languages) about the changes - presumably agreeing it's more Political (/Financial) than any real Phonetic advantage.
...It all makes me think of things Julian Cope has said, somehow. Interesting that RockKulture - & Fantasists - & Metaphysicians - seek to embrace umlauts & the like! - as bureaucrats (spell that!) & financiers the opposite...

Wed. 3/20/13 10:40am
Caryn:
ø = ö, same as æ = ä. The first of each pair are in languages like Norwegian and Danish, the latter in ones like Swedish and Finnish.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:41am
Planet Tyler (DC):
Certain times of the year you can get ø almost exactly in your telescope (a recommendation for the lesser light-polluted)

Wed. 3/20/13 10:43am
martin:
great show...was a bit sad to see Kens was not on- though vey happy he had a day off after M. Big surprise! love your choices. Am grammar geek, whatever. Your show is g.o.o.d.f.u.n. It's keeping me moving.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:43am
crateslinger:
I ride an electra-glide, otherwise known as a "Geezer Glider". My wife can knit riding on the back of my motorcycle while I doze between exits.

Wed. 3/20/13 10:58am
RevolutionRabbitNov63:
pierre - your English Grammar is not flawless - but I don't know how many years it would take me (10,+?) to be as articulate & intelligible in Francais as your are in English right now - & despite my DNA...

Wed. 3/20/13 11:01am
Leigh:
You should have Andrea on your show more often.

Wed. 3/20/13 11:07am
Ike:
I missed Andrea? That's what I get for being late to work.

Wed. 3/20/13 11:07am
the glowing one:
That's what Benjamen should take advantage of RIGHT NOW! No more excuses for not showing any animations on the playlist.

Wed. 3/20/13 11:09am
RevolutionRabbitNov63:
Peter Sellars! - Did you see 'Life & Death of P.S.' w/ Geoffrey Rush?
- Two days a Year I do NOT go to Pub: New Years Eve & Patties...
...Thot wallet chain was maybe too McPunk trendy - but it works...carefull w/ slatted seats & handrails...

Wed. 3/20/13 11:10am
Benjamen Walker:
Sorry the glowing one -right now I am sucking this warm coffee down - and trying to make it to 12 noon!

Wed. 3/20/13 11:12am
northguineahills:
I went out Sunday for a dinner and a movie, but thankfully, most of the lunatics were out during the parade Saturday. Most of my local pubs are pretty anti-St Pats (to get the drunken morons out) day, so, they're safe.

Wed. 3/20/13 11:21am
dçþät:
I have no problem with St. Patrick's day--being mostly Irish and named after the patron saint--but it's just been ruined by all the douches...What's a WASPy holiday that all the rest of us can ruin??

Wed. 3/20/13 11:28am
Ike:
Except for Cinco de Mayo. That's another lousy amateur night, isn't it? Or is that just the night to avoid crowds in Mexican restaurants?

Wed. 3/20/13 11:29am
Rev. Turnip Druid:
Yeh, Glowing, did a quick google & discovered it was a cover... this was a snotty teen hardcore version, very lo-fi and despicable. hm. random memory flashes of records long deceased...

Wed. 3/20/13 11:30am
Rev. Turnip Druid:
Ike: Cinco was more of a legit dealie in Tucson (esp. south Tucson where the Real People (read: poor multi-generational families) still lived. Up here, laughable.

Wed. 3/20/13 11:34am
RevolutionRabbitNov63:
Half-Viking?
...@ least Cinco de Mayo a legit commemoration of chucking the French outta Mexico - which even as a (part) FrenchDescendant I salute
- but point being how many Holidays (Holy Days) observe anything but mass hysteria of some kind? Not that I'm against Festival ( see Barbara Ehrenreich's 'Dancing in the Streets' - !) - but if they're gettin' violent on Black Friday - I think we should have the right to Opt Out w/out social stigma...War on Xmas - !!!

Wed. 3/20/13 11:47am
Caryn:
@Ike: and the song title was of course "Robots live"

Wed. 3/20/13 11:48am
Ike:
Believe it or not I've had decent Mexican in DELAWARE of all places -- not as good as out west, but not bad. Also Tyler Cowen claims there is good Mex at a gas station (!) in Elkridge MD: tiny.cc...

Wed. 3/20/13 11:49am
Rev. Turnip Druid:
After Tucson, followed a job to Bangor, Maine of all places. Found a "mexican restaurant" in the tiny town of Orono, Maine. That was a hoot. One doesn't want to be THAT SNOB GUY, but shewt....

Wed. 3/20/13 11:49am
dçþät:
Rev, you ever been to the "gas station sandwich" place near 9:30? I hear it's bitchin.

Wed. 3/20/13 11:50am
RevolutionRabbitNov63:
well - a restaurant or two...Maybe the substitute DJ's have a particular enthusiam?? Irreverence?...

Wed. 3/20/13 11:52am
Rev. Turnip Druid:
DCP, is that the place that used to be the Jamaican carryout (Tropicana)? ... short answer is no, but there is a "gas station sandwich" place off 14th north of U which *IS* bitchin'...

Wed. 3/20/13 11:53am
Planet Tyler:
The worst mexican food i ever had was in new mexico...

Wed. 3/20/13 11:54am
Caryn:
You sometimes get great ethnic food in weird places. For instance, our town here in the middle of nowhere has an excellent Argentinian ice cream parlour and a superb Armenian restaurant. Meanwhile the best Spanish and Italian restaurants I've ever been to were both in Ireland.