If conservative investors had any courage, this would be the time to make a hostile takeover of the movie business. Unfortunately, they don’t. I know this from bitter personal experience. Wealthy conservatives are delighted to support the Philharmonic, but when it comes to popular culture they turn away, as if afraid to get their hands dirty.

That this is a huge mistake should be obvious. They have abandoned the culture -- and our children -- to the creepiest people imaginable.

Consider this. In just twelve days, Alt★Hero managed to reach the top one percent of all kickstarted campaigns ever, and it did so on a platform so new that it doesn't even have some of the most basic user interface features yet. Other than Milo Yiannopoulos, Mike Cernovich, and Stefan Molyneux, how many of the conservative media figures who regularly lament the dire straits of culture and entertainment in America have bothered to even recognize its existence, much less recommend it to anyone?

Do you want to know why the Right is losing the culture wars? Because conservatives simply refuse to fight them. For all that they decry the French as cheese-eating surrender monkeys, the WWII-era French Army offered considerably more resistance after the Maginot Line was bypassed than the conservative movement does in the culture wars.

102 Comments:

This is an appeal to every Conservative's cowardice (since there's not much else to appeal to; at least THAT is reliable)

Remember, when the tide changes, there's one question that the victors will be asking: Who was in the front lines fighting with them, and what evidence can they present that they did. And who was in the sidelines, grandstanding and shouting MUH PRINCIPLES!!! to supposedly their own side.

This is the time to create that track record. It will be too late when the war is won.

And I don't mean "give ur monies to alt heroz". I mean, do SOMETHING in which you risk something of your own. Even if it's just the security in the knowledge that you probably won't be called racist in the immediate foreseeable future.

The thing that bugs me about the big "conservatives" is they apparently hate making more money. They're already the Liberal Boogeymen, just go all in & have fun doing it. If you're made 100s of millions already, you're clearly immune from a lot of things.

Or, get better friends. (Apparently the advice I've given broke guys applies to billionaires as well.)

Each time this comes up, it's clear "Conservative" thought was hijacked by neo-liberals that simply wanted the trains to actually run on time. It's the reason they keep importing Commonwealth writers, I think. It's instinct to suppress American or Rightwing thought.

At minimum, the lesson of the Trump Era: the Left gives you two options, submit or die. When given, go full Chad. Mock the Soy Boys. Taunt them. Crush them & be merry.

Let us all bow our heads a moment in silent reflection of our patron saints, Andrew Breitbart, Anders Breivik, and Charles Martel. Let us then praise with great praise our current champion, James O'Keefe.

The French in ww2 put up a hell of a fight. They were simply beaten and no longer in a position to continue meaningful organised resistance. The modern conservatives do not even WANT to fight. They are more than happy being the Vichy Right..nice, tame, controlled satraps for the left, As long as they keep their lucrative jobs and social status they do not care.

This is an absolute history fact: In the first centuries AD, Greek medicine thought that the function of human hair is to give suction to semen, so that it would raise up more easily from the testicles. (By capillary action, I imagine; but this part is my conjecture).

So, if you suck enough d-- principles, it goes to your hair. Then you, too, can look like Mitt.

The conservatives fall into two big camps, the guys who are money conservatives and those who are just democrats with twenty year old positions. Some are genuine but those guys remind me of the last of the guys who wore powdered wigs. They are out of time and don't realize they've been passed by.

Dirtnapninja wrote:... The modern conservatives do not even WANT to fight. They are more than happy being the Vichy Right..nice, tame, controlled satraps for the left, As long as they keep their lucrative jobs and social status they do not care.

Markku wrote:This is an absolute history fact: In the first centuries AD, Greek medicine thought that the function of human hair is to give suction to semen, so that it would raise up more easily from the testicles. (By capillary action, I imagine; but this part is my conjecture).

So, if you suck enough d-- principles, it goes to your hair. Then you, too, can look like Mitt.

@Dirtnapninja: Vichy is the word. The establishment conservatives have been controlled opposition since 1955. The rest are just collaborators hoping to hold onto to the remains of their quiet middle class life until they die. To hell with their kids and grandkids.

More than that, conservatives need to be seen as "nice". They really care what other people think, including what their enemies think. That's one reason conservatives have been losing for generations.

Many people of whom I once though better fall into this trap (most of them women, but a few emasculated men). One couple, relatives by marriage, finally realized, after years of pretending to be Conservative that the issues they cared about indicated that they were actually Liberal. Single payer health care! Immigration! Be nice so that the "right" people don't yell at you!(Then again, they work in the book publishing industry, so they were likely red-pilled pretty hard by Torlings and they have to get along to go along.)Many of the others who fall into this same trap are actually good Christian women, for whom being seen as "nice" or "loving" or "tolerant" or "non-judgmental, like Jesus said" seems to be more important than any long-term action to actually preserve the Western Christian culture.

In my work, I do what Markku calls us Men of the West to do: as a college English instructor, I assign many readings which go against the current zeitgeist of liberal thinking (no gay marriage, no transgender bathrooms, arm teachers to be safe, etc.) as counters to the vast cesspool of modern liberal academic thinking. I don't just assign them to be read; we actively discuss the merits and strengths of the arguments. I see few students who are actual leftists (at the freshman level, mind you), and a few who are the opposite. Most seem to be people who just want to do "the right thing," which they have been taught is the "left" thing. They haven't ever seen any principled resistance from the right, since the conservatives long ago gave up the fight in popular culture.

It would be so easy for them to fight back. All of the lefts poster boys from gay marriage to good moslems to drying while black (on probation for gangshooting) always turn out to be horrible examples.

Moslem Beauty Queen Who Modeled for UK Labor Party Was Convicted of #MoslemTerror:

Wealthy conservatives are no different than other conservatives. The only thing they've conserved are the gains made by the Marxoid left. Dead communists like MLK are celebrated as conservative 'Christian' saints. Maybe not actively recruited by CIA as controlled opposition a la William F. Cuckley, but willing to parrot his thoughts and cough up funds to keep a place like NR cucking along. As for the Philharmonic (e.g. western classical music), it's totally run by the SJWs as well.

The movie industry is a sink hole. Not sure how or why it should be taken over, but it is already being overtaken by Amazon and Netflix. Alt-Right is a new phenomenon and it has little to do with mainstream Conservatism. So the pickle is what audience do you want? What content do you want? What is the distribution network? Even the major studios appear to be willing to act as distributors if the project is right. The swamp is most major talent is unacceptable as hires.

I would love to see more movies and tv shows made by conservatives. (Wow! Outlander if it had made by conservatives? The series already has core principals of Family and Nationalism. Unfortunately it gets bogged down by "Claire needs to be a strong woman crapola" ) All the Conservative run tv channels show are politics, politics, politics. How about good old fashioned tv shows made for families?

I'd also like to see more conservative female authors out there writing for other females. It might seem nuts but some of us happen to like romance novels, I've had to stop buying books because too many authors stick 21st century women and values into a 19th century story.

Sylo Qwertz wrote:an awful lot of establishment conservatives are closeted homos; so there's that. the rest are just natural pussies. very enjoyable to see their world falling in around their heads the fukkers...

This is somewhat tangential, but its good to see someone who recognizes that the French in WWII were hardly a mass of fleeing cowards. The French suffered somewhere between 55,000 and 85,000 killed in six weeks of fighting; that's more than we lost during the entire Vietnam war. That's hardly a casualty rate that one would expect of cowards.

The French Army in 1940 was very much like the US and ARVN armies in the late 1960's; they were hampered by defective doctrine, betrayed by a scheming elite, and stabbed in the back by Communists on the home front, but cowards they were not...

@33I'd also like to see more conservative female authors out there writing for other females. It might seem nuts but some of us happen to like romance novels, I've had to stop buying books because too many authors stick 21st century women and values into a 19th century story.

Need to refine your pitch, if you want Castalia House to publish romance. Castalia publishes red-pill SF and also Western fiction, so why not diversify to sell to women?

In the meantime, used booksellers are your friend. When I gave up on pink SF coughAnalogcough about 10 years back there was plenty of good SF in the used bookstores.

We should be grateful that Hollywood seems to have scored an own goal with the Harvey Weinstein story. It opens up many avenues of approach to breaking the networks of power, influence and finance that the Progressives have built over the decades.

Attacking Democrat politicians for failing to speak, demanding they return campaign contributions (or going after them even harder if they fail to do so) and actively uncovering linkages between Democrat politicians and Hollywood will put them further on the back foot, and make their brand toxic to the apolitical Americans who normally have little to no interest in politics.

Vox always tells us that culture is upstream of politics. so now there is an opening to drive into.

@41We should be grateful that Hollywood seems to have scored an own goal with the Harvey Weinstein story. It opens up many avenues of approach to breaking the networks of power, influence and finance that the Progressives have built over the decades.

@38 Ugh, no. Castalia House doesn't need to be the One True Conservative Publishing House. There is room in the marketplace for at least half a dozen right-wing/conservative presses of freaking BAEN's size and library. At Castalia's current size there is room for a couple dozen.

Starting a press is very cheap and easy and if you want right-wing/conservative romance, is a better bet than the irritating and near-endless demands that Castalia do it alllllll. Let them freaking stay mostly specialized and start up some more options for people. I buy some Castalia stuff, but that it's not "for me" as a woman is fine by me. It doesn't need to be all things to all conservatives.

you fucking pathetic homo lover (((ted)). what a dishonest fuck. none of those jews you listed fight. they sell fake news and shitty e-books. for shekels. they are intellectual cowards. like you. you are all jews. you are so obviously jewish. short, balding, and fake...no principles. no pride...just a lust for shekels.

retweeting canned stories from years ago, like (((cernokike))) does, is not fighting. sitting on fucking social mediaiazs for 18 hours a day retweeting haaretz and alt kike sock puppets, like (((cernokike))) does, is not fighting. bragging about banging trannies and selling blue pills mixed with fitjuice like (((cernokike))) does, is not fighting.

bragging about downing nigger dick and gargling shitskin semen for "lols" might pass of an humor to a dorky boomer like yourself, but i assure you, it isn't funny and it isn't fighting. creating fake news to promote yourself while stealing money from other people isn't fighting, it's called being a fucking degenerate kike. making the case that pedophilia is ok, is not fighting.

making jewtube videos while being a bald guy that just repeats what he sees elsewhere, is not fighting.

look we get it you want to pretend like you are media and not the (((media))) but you are in fact (((fake news media)))...you are so pathetic you have accounts to spam other websites. i can't go to (((freerepublic))) because it has (((cernokike and milo))) trying to spam their fake bullshit there. what kind of "man" does that? a fucking fake jew like you.

if you were honest and hadn't sold your tiny jew soul to two faggot jews for the chance at shekels, you could see that.

none of you are leaders. just purveyors of trash and clickbait. snake oil salesmen...posers.

you getting this?

since the alt kike aka the fence sitting jewish libertarians ala yarvin...who by the way, is a fucking idiot...(if it takes you 100000 words to say something that only should take 1000, you are by definition and fucking nerd idiot with too much time on your hands...) love to make fake titles up for themselves, because you in fact are a bunch of nobodies...lmamloamlamoaooo "national security expert reporter, investigative reporter" lmaoooooo "mentally challenged lying lisp plagued tranny cock addict" is more like it lmalalaooo...

"The French Army in 1940 was very much like the US and ARVN armies in the late 1960's; they were hampered by defective doctrine, betrayed by a scheming elite, and stabbed in the back by Communists on the home front, but cowards they were not..."

Hell, de Gaulle had Blitzkrieg figured out at around the same time the Germans did.

Many who present a “conservative” front enjoy frolicking in the barely-hidden cesspool of elite culture. Just another form of hypocritical virtue signaling to mask a debased nature. The last thing anyone like that wants is a real change in the status quo.

The alt-right is inevitable because it is rooted in empirical observation. It does not begin with an arbitrary set of principles disconnected from anything real, so it lacks that space between ideological purity and reality where conservatives often hide. The more circumstances force people to face reality, the less false ideological fronts matter.

I like the spirit behind Babylon Bee, but that's not culture war. It's Millennial-flavored Christian comedy.

Comfortable niche-casting in the extent of Christian media creation.

The closest thing to an actual culture warrior in the high-end content creation world is Mel Gibson. And he's doing that in spite of himself (spouts PC platitudes with the best of them while making savagely un-PC movies).

After the obligatory "piling on" about Weinstein, he inserts this garbage:

So far, many right-wing readers are probably nodding along to this column. Well, stop. If you never spoke up about Trump, or if you responded to those accusations with a dismissive, "What about Bill Clinton?" you should probably just sit this one out.

Because if you decry piggish behavior only when it helps your side, or if you think accusers are telling the truth only when they speak up about people you hate (or don't need professionally), then you don't actually care about sexual harassment.

Actually, I really don't care about "sexual harassment" of a bunch of people who would f~$k Weinstein for a movie part - or a political donation. A ho is gonna ho, as long as the price is right and the opportunity arises.

I had a friend take the floor at a county-level GOP convention and recite the 10 Planks of Communism and publicly ask what the GOP has done about it. Then we chased state judge candidates around the floor with questions about jury nullification. It's fun watching these demi-gods get scared.

You know what? Conservatives deserve antifa. I have spent my life watching boomer conservatives basically screw the pooch because they didn't want to jeopardize their 5 acre fake farm in the sticks and their Chevy Suburban.

On the state GOP convention floor after they totally dissed Ron Paul I warned them that this will be dealt with in ways they don't like. They called me names, got in my face, and when I got back in theirs they ran to the nearest cop claiming they felt threatened. (just like an SJW - because the ENTIRE operation of the GOP and the SJWs is one big NEOCON operation).

With a radical left that actually wants to kill people, and with a lot of fat boomer conservatives with big fat wifey in tow afraid to do anything beyond play Rush Limbaugh a little louder in their SUV as they drive down "hipster row" in the city, it's sad that a lot of them will die.

But I spent 2 decades warning them, 2 decades saying stand up and fight. 2 decades pushing a "hard target" community so that anybody thinking they are going to go full Red October (the historical event, not the movie) has to think twice.

And 22000 of them got long-range ambushed by people with possible ISIS ties and ISIS and the left have a bit of an accord going. But look, the makers of slide-fire stocks are going to get sued now. YEAH! That'll show ... uh.. somebody... who the boss is!

I should be sad. But I'm not. Thanks to modernity there's no skin in the game for me and I can watch the world burn. But I'm sworn to help Gen Z burn the boomers and boomerism in the fires of comeuppance. It's the only revenge we can get.

Donald Trump is the rare exception of person on the Right who is fighting the culture war.Trump got some pro football owners and the commissioner to change their tune concerning the national anthem.I'm an investor. I swear, if I was a billionaire i would seek to take over companies just to throw out all the SJWs and political correctness.

I mean, do SOMETHING in which you risk something of your own. Even if it's just the security in the knowledge that you probably won't be called racist in the immediate foreseeable future.

Markku is correct.

This is why I will be in Austin, Texas on October 21-22 training men ahead of the Refuse Fascism and Antifa riots planned for November 4.

And why I will be back there on the ground in Austin on November 4.

We all have a responsibility to do what we can. That is different for each of us, and I do not measure men against each other's contributions - but rather by what they do contribute v. what they are capable of. And it is a utilitarian judgment, not a moral one.

Do what you can. Do a little more. Do it each day, even if the doing is merely hardening resolve.

I refuse to call them "conservatives" any longer. Trump isn't the God Emperor, he's the Illuminator - the man who brought the Great Big Spotlight to the dark, dank swamp.

The Democrats have long had a policy of doing as much hurt to the USA as their Propaganda Press toadies could cover up. There is NO problem that the Dems don't milk for votes.

But the GOPe has an equally sordid history of doing NOTHING for its base. Their attitude has been, "Those peasants have to vote for us because the Dems are worse." They see no benefit to actually solving problems...like the Dems, they have turned to problem milking as an industry.

Vox isn't the first to point out the need for a major cultural offensive - Professor Reynolds has been calling for big bucks GOP donors to buy a women's magazine for a good decade.

But there's opportunity. Opportunity to hit hard...and make a fortune in the process.

I used to be very active in conservative politics. So many times I'd tell people we needed to do something, to attack the other side, and I was always poo-pooed and told that it wasn't right, or it was rude, or some other lame ass excuse.

Then after we lost that battle some people would say 'maybe we should have listened to John' but the next time around? Nope! Can't fight to win, because that's below us! It's RUDE and UNSEEMLY!

So yeah, I dumped the conservative party and haven't had anything to do with them for decades. They not only don't understand the concept of 'winning' they don't -want- to win. Because it might cost them party invites and easy sex with the hot and loose liberal chicks who'd sleep with anybody.

Seriously, the only places I can find the will to fight, creativity, playfulness, and mental toughness are places like this. A conservative may sometimes have a slight sense of humor, but not often, and then not too far.

Still that's better then the Globalist Left, where actual violence is everywhere, and the lack of civilization even strikes their in-groups. Destroy creativity, and violence grows. People cannot live a checklist or an external narrative.

Liberals are the leisure class -- trust funders, government/NGO/non-profit employees, eternal students, professional protesters, and welfare breeders. Conservatives work hard at real jobs or run their own businesses while also raising families. They have little time or energy to read novels, comic books, or deep, Moldbuggian works of political philosophy. And they tend to hold a lot of unexamined assumptions of a liberal nature.

The only good things you can say about "conservatives" that are not part of the Globalist camp, is they are more "head-in-the-sand scared, rather than hateful scared like the Globalists and SJWs.

Also, conservatives seem completely clueless about culture creativity, where a few of the Leftists still understand what it is, but they are involved in destruction, so their options have bee shrinking for years. The Civic Nationalist type conservatives do have one semi-creative ability now, and that is to see through about 2/3 of the Globalist Left's Narrative, and their GOPe co-conspirators.

But, counter-attacking the deep culture wars with their own creative culture moves. They have not eve considered the possibility. Alt*Hero is critical. Goes way beyond Stefan and Jordan's videos.

Man did this post ever hit the spot. In situations like this, where chaos has been created, and there is a LEGIT hunger for not even "alt-right" movies and shows (although there is that too), but just "alt-normie" media that DOESN'T have to star Kevin Sorbo...just back to basics stuff, like all those cowgirl movies on Netflix our family likes. Imagine Disney, but without the gay stuff, or a Sci-fi or Fantasy, without "grrrllll power".

James Woods, et al, could swiftly move in, have a press conference, start a new media group, and even if it took time, get more investors and start making regular movies and programming (including Youtube, or whatever).

THEY.WON'T.DO.IT. They cry about the structures libs have made, but they will not build over them, once they crumble.

> Two million is not even close to upper middle class now, it takes at minimum 5 or 6 and 10 is better.

a) Most people aren't upper middle class.b) What qualifies as upper middle class varies widely depending on where you live.c) At 2.5% (the last time I looked) $2M will give you $50K+ year in income just from CD's. You can do better than that with stocks.

People that have 2 million, usually over half is non-liquid, and most people with 2 million today still constantly worry about money. Just saying, and they are not me. I see people in their middle 60's and up still worrying about their future, and whether they can afford to live out their lives in comfort. I want Western Civilization to revitalize, and have already had a wonderful life, which had nothing to do with money beyond just enough.

My uncle was a retired lawyer though, who worked for a large corporation, and he retired some years ago with what was probably about 12 million, and told me he was just "comfortably middle class," so I use his standards for other people who are not as odd as me.

To be fair though, an (extremely!) successful crowdfunding is still no substitute for the finished product, as we've notoriously seen with the Dungeons & Dragons documentary film(s). I think once Alt-Hero is actually 'out there' in the marketplace, you'll see much of the right-media immediately rallying around it -- even amongst those who aren't particularly alt-right in their political views.

DeeJay wrote:To be fair though, an (extremely!) successful crowdfunding is still no substitute for the finished product, as we've notoriously seen with the Dungeons & Dragons documentary film(s). I think once Alt-Hero is actually 'out there' in the marketplace, you'll see much of the right-media immediately rallying around it -- even amongst those who aren't particularly alt-right in their political views.

No, none of the talking Right will at first say much good, and it will be a populist move first. Some populists will even reject at first because "Alt," but that will change, as, surprise, good stories. It will have two or three stages of breakouts before any right-media gives it a nod.Many, if not most talkers/media will never say good things, but bad things work too.

A lot of Southerners will give it a shot just because "Rebel." Also, young boys, because cool heroines.

One of the great things about this Alt*Hero project is that the good stories, and the creativity will show new people on the Right that "Alt" is not what they have been told it is, and some at first, then many later, will have a more open mind.

Thats why Africans in the repub party is what is needed they are tougher. Thats why its counter productive if the alt right pushes away Africans. Now moderate African Republicans is NOT what is needed. Hard core African Republicans with some PUNCH like Vox is what is needed. Ive seen some on Fox. The alt right should recruit them.

I immediately backed the Alt-Hero campaign at 150 and will up my backing soon. For what its worth, I used to blog quite a bit on a Science Forum (presumably, filled with scientists like myself). I had a history of about 10 years there. My account was seized when I produced a cogent argument showing the strong correlation between IQ and socioeconomic status. The data is clear, the regulated US western economic system efficiently sorts people on IQ. I image a free market would be even more efficient. The Left reached its goal, Americans are not economic racists. I'm not even an economist, but a biichemist. My ephany was sudden, what a waste of time it is trying to use dialectical debate. Almost a total waste, it does allow for personal growth and insight, but don't imagine you're going to alter the opinion of someone based on reason and evidence. Especially so called scientists. Who should know better.Anyway..... I, a classic liberal, am now in the fight for the Alt-Right.

> People that have 2 million, usually over half is non-liquid, and most people with 2 million today still constantly worry about money.

What's one of the dominant themes on this blog again? Oh, that's right, MPAI. As I said, $2M is $50K/year in income. More if you have any idea what you're doing or have the right people handling your money.

> ...years ago with what was probably about 12 million, and told me he was just "comfortably middle class,

By the same standards as above (CD rates), $12M translates to $300K/year. That sounds like a bit better than "comfortably middle class"" to me. Obviously YMMV.

The chattering class on the internet, the big money conservatives, and the establishment bureaucrats are the tip of the conservative iceberg in the U.S. When it comes to political fundraising, the Right has traditionally had to depend on a million $100 donations vs. the Left's 100 million-dollar ones. Most Trump voters barely know what the alt-Right is, and would identify themselves as conservative if asked.

So you'd probably be surprised at the number of ordinary folk, people who don't post on blogs and only share pictures of their kids on Facebook who are risking their jobs and their relationships to push back in the culture war. But their numbers are growing. Too late? I pray not.

As for conservative Hollywood: Criminal Minds, Beyond Borders with Gary Sinese is unabashedly Superversive despite being a horror-movie-of-the-week program. Father Brown keeps surprising me, despite having to put in one show each season to appease their demon-masters (and they still subtly tweak their noses in the process)Christian and conservative movie makers are struggling to build product that can steal Hollywood's audience with stories like The Stray.

Honestly, I think the conservatives are fighting back. But they're out-gunned, out-flanked, fighting at the bottom of a ravine, and too easily distracted by helpful cries of "Look! Over there! It's a RACIST!"

It's not as snappy a headline of course: "Conservatives always seem to start fighting back too late." Except for the establishment cucks. They just shoot at our backs.

Simon's call for conservatives to stage a hostile takeover of Hollywood wouldn't be necessary if conservative studio owners hadn't given away the farm in the 60s and 70s.

Walt Disney rounded up and fired all of the commies who worked for his studio. Look at his empire now. Hollywood used to enforce a system that kept the talent in line--or at least made sure they presented a decent image to the public. Now some of them are making excuses for a serial abuser.

It's the same story in every corner of the entertainment industry. Go read Safe Space as Rape Room. Look into the tragic fates that befell far too many child TV actors. Neither area of research is recommended for the faint of heart.

The Left is my implacable enemy, but I understand their motives and their success is impressive in a twisted way. But I despise the conservative guardians of our culture who sold us out and who still refuse to fight.

Going back to "conservatives won't fight," in the sense of culture wars it is somewhat different. Most conservatives simply believe any creativity is outside their area, and they cannot ever imagine themselves being creative. If asked, they would likely give you a blank stare.

If most conservatives were tied down to discuss it, they would think it was the realm of "genius," or that you need to be a debauched "free thinker," or some such.

Areas like games and comics are a wonderful introduction for GenZ back into the culture wars from the Right, and music would be too, if approached correctly.

VD has hit on a major theme here, conservatives are defensive...well, because they hardly ever look at themselves as even possibly being creative. Also, any creative people on the Right, especially in music or writing, the Leftist have always tried hard to destroy, hold back or absorb (as ion turn them Leftist).

The Right absolutely needs to win the culture war on the creative level to renew Western Civilization, and if not renewed it will perish.

> Everybody in America thinks they are middle class, which they usually define as "at least 80% of my income, but no more than 110%."

Well, there's lower middle class, middle class, and upper middle class. All of which are malleable depending on where you are living.

There probably are some general rules. In most areas (i.e., not LA, SF, NYC, etc.), over $50K/year in income probably makes you lower middle class. Over 100K probably makes you anywhere from middle class to upper middle class depending on the area. Over 200K probably makes you upper middle class. Over $500K probably makes you rich. As already noted, the exact figures vary widely by region.

James Dixon wrote:... over $50K/year in income probably makes you lower middle class.

The source of your income is far more important than the amount. If your income comes from current employment or pension from past employment, you are middle class or below. If your income comes from investments, perhaps supplemented by current employment, you are upper middle class or above.

@98 James Dixon: a wage slave with a large income is a wage slave. If the upper middles have jobs, they are light, attractive jobs which matter for the power or social status they bring, not for daily subsistence.

Now that I'm at a proper keyboard, I'll expand a little further. The source of your income is going to affect your life across the board. It will influence your opinions on the tax code: how should wages be taxed, versus how investment income is taxed? It will affect your attitude toward your job: is it an unpleasant necessity, or yet another luxury? If you're a wage slave, sickness means down time means ruin. If you're UMC, sickness is merely unpleasant.

Wage slaves get a vacation, while the upper middle class and above spend their summers at the beach or in the mountains, and winters in some pleasant spot, perhaps the Caribbean or ski resorts. This one isn't about the money, but about the free time.

Generally, a large income from current employment will produce a very different lifestyle and different attitudes than a large income from investments. Once the investment income rises to the point that employment income is optional, options and attitudes change.

This is why old money is different: someone who was raised with the UMC attitudes is going to approach life very differently than someone who was a wage slave until the pension kicked in, even though both may have exactly the same passive income.

For a time, yes. But probably not for long, comparatively speaking. A salary of $300K would mean you could save at least $75K/year and still have $75K to live on. That puts a retirement amount of savings at about 20 years or so.

> The source of your income is going to affect your life across the board. It will influence your opinions on the tax code: how should wages be taxed, versus how investment income is taxed?

Yes, wages are taxed at a higher rate, especially taking into account Social Security and Medicare taxes. That's one of the problems I have with our tax code. But at the income level we're discussing, it's not a major problem.

> It will affect your attitude toward your job: is it an unpleasant necessity, or yet another luxury?

Well, I guess I'm lucky. I like my job, which makes it a pleasant necessity.

> This one isn't about the money, but about the free time.

Yes, I suspect very few people would choose to work a daily job if they had the option not to. But that has little to do with the income.

> Generally, a large income from current employment will produce a very different lifestyle and different attitudes than a large income from investments.

I wouldn't know. I've had to settle for relatively modest incomes from each.

> This is why old money is different: someone who was raised with the UMC attitudes is going to approach life very differently than someone who was a wage slave until the pension kicked in, even though both may have exactly the same passive income.

Yes, but I guess we disagree about why that would be "important". A life of relative leisure is obviously more pleasant than a life of drudgery, but I don't really consider those the important things in life. Money is really only important for the relative security of covering life's necessities it offers (and that more for my family than myself).

Income from wages are taxes differently than investments.If inflow of money is due to wages, realistically, you can only have one full-time job and other wage generating job within the remaining hours plus sleep/rest.You can have money inflows from as many investments as you wish and can afford.

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