Originally posted by eyewitness86
Ther video of the Luxor and golf course is evidence. You have NEVER proved in any way, to any degree, that Criss altered the video to deceive. The
witnesses on the film are reacting with amazement, not because Cris paid them, but because they are seeing something that defies their experience. You
have NEVER shown a witness alleging pay offs, right? You have never shown a photo of a prop, taken from anywhere by anyone, of the high levitations,
right? You also have not told us WHY Criss alone does these events; well, you did but it was nonsense. To believe that opnly Criss is low enough to
fake video's and make money is laughable. No one could believe that.

As for the Luxor float spectators acting in amazement, this is one of those cases I find to be faked. You can't tell this? Sure they may say wowee
look at that, but look at what exactly? How do you know without a shred of doubt that these witnesses are genuine live observers observing the said
feat at the said time? You don't know any more than we do.

Don't you think if he was really floating up there, cars driving by would have honked? Or was the street blocked off?

I'm unclear as to how he did this show. Was it a live broadcast and did the public know ahead of time that Criss Angel would float above the Luxor
that night? Or was it just revealed on his frist show of the 3rd season and who knows when he did it?

I also think I read somewhere he will float above the Luxor each night of his Cirque show. I'm guessing it will be like how Tinkerbell floats over
Disneyland each night! Or he's gonna have alot of channeling to do!

Btw. for Canadian viewers: Discovery Channel will air a season 3 Bonus episode on saturday. "Mayhem In The Making". There were 5 bonus episodes not
released on the DVD, that A&E showed over Xmas:

David Copperfield was a well-established stage magician long before Criss Angel ever entered the public spotlight. I remember seeing Copperfield on
television many years ago, performing sleight-of-hand (and other) illusions on stage, but no body levitation.

David Copperfield became rich and famous as a stage magician. On the other hand, Criss Angel became rich and famous not because he was good as a stage
magician, but because he did outrageous feats that went beyond that of your typical illusionist, i.e., his high levitations and teleportations.
That's what got him his MindFreak television show, as well as his gig in Vegas.

It is possible to fake levitation with high technology. But in order to do that one has to first be rich enough to be able to afford that technology
for a stage act.

David Copperfield started doing his levitations on stage and elsewhere AFTER he was successful as a magician, not BEFORE - when he was wealthy enough
to afford the high-tech equipment. While on the other hand, Criss Angel did his high levitations and teleportations THAT MADE HIM SUCCESSFUL as an
unparalleled illusionist - with more air time on television than any other magician in history

I'd be willing to bet that the levitation illusion video link you posted of Copperfield levitating around the Grand Canyon was produced AFTER Criss
Angel emerged as a MindFreak phenomenon in the public eye. Moreover, a lack of witnesses on the ground lessens its credibility as genuine
telekinesis.

All of which points to DC being a good illusionist and CA being an illusionist who also occasionally uses telekinesis - via a Gift from large Group
Entity or discarnate community - to perform his high levitations and teleportations.

PR....Hey, good to see ytou!! I made the mistake of stopping in and got caught up trying again to get the deniers to see the light. I am glad to
get some back up, although a few voices of reason are emerging. At least a few people are seeing that the deniers basket is empty despite the big bow
on top.

One day they will sit back and admit that they really ARE relying on supposition entirely and that they have no evidence at all to back them up. I
hope so at least.

Wrong!! The video you topok would not be admitted because none of your equipment is certified by qualified personnel and tested to a standard of
efficiency on a regular basis. The speedometer in your car has never been tested or adjusted and they are usually off by 1-5 miles per hour anyway,
thus the reason many judges will not accept a speeding case for less than 5 mph over the limit; due to speedomoter inaccuracy.

Also, the State is a party in the proceedings as well as you are, correct? they are trying you, so they are the other half of the parties. Since
they are the accusers, there proof must be vetted and assured of accuracy.

Now, let's say that you happened to be driving a car that had the speedomoter tested and certified recently and proof of it, and perhaps some
evidence that the equipment that the cop used was inferior or inaccurate..then you would have a shot at disallowing the states evidence. The state as
accuser has the burden of proving that their equipment is correct so they can be a party to the proescution. If the cop had said that his speedometer
was the only thing used to judge your speed, and you could show that his speedomoter had not been verified and certified as accurate, you would likley
win the case.

Unless the accused can present evidence that refutes the presumption of accuracy attained by the certification, then the accuracy of the equipment
is an assumed under the law.

So, please find a better analogy. Unless you can prove that Criss video's of the high levitations have been altered to deceive, we can safely
assume that we are seeing real and accurate portrayals of the events.

So, the film was tricked out to appear to be people saying" look at Criss levitating!!" right? The whole event never happened at all, I guess.
Criss just got some shots of guests dressed in fancy clothes at adjacent hotels looking and pointing at some unknown event and spliced it in to a
series of shots of Criss floating over the Luxor that was tricked as well, right? Is that what you believe? Unreal. Violet, you are NOT helping the
deniers case!!

Here are a few of your words..I believe they are more telling than your imagining all that you do with ZERO evidence.

" Can't you tell"

"I'm unclear "

" I'm guessing "

" I think I read somewhere "

Those lines sum up all that you have as proof: An appeal to imagine things not in evidence but asking us to believe your guesses as if they were
valid and not a guess. The denier code will always give you a way out: When all else fails, simply insist that you are right because...you are right.
Sorry, not enough.

How interesting that those that believe CA is actually flying choose to ignore violets find

Here's a radio interview where CA admits again "I lie (on the show). Hey, at least I'm an honest liar".

There you go, CA lies. So that shoots down one of your contentions that, when CA says everything you see is real, or this is a demonstration of mind,
body, spirit, its utter BS.

Edit to add: Just to recap, CA says on a radio show, he does nothing paranormal. The believers counter and say he says he does mind body and spirit
demonstrations. CA comes back and says he lies on his show, eliminating the believers quote from their evidence list (which I am still waiting for
Eyewitness86)

Im glad we could clear that part up

Next Eyewitness86: I find it interesting that you have constantly said that we have no proof of our claims, while you continue to provide no
proof of your counter claims! Asking us to prove he is not levitating is asking us to prove the negative, and as you say, you just cant do
that.

Oh the hipocracy....Oh the humanity....Oh the utter lack of independant thought!

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
I'd be willing to bet that the levitation illusion video link you posted of Copperfield levitating around the Grand Canyon was produced AFTER Criss
Angel emerged as a MindFreak phenomenon in the public eye. Moreover, a lack of witnesses on the ground lessens its credibility as genuine
telekinesis.

Ill take that bet!!

The Magic of David Copperfield VI: Floating Over the Grand Canyon (1984) (with special guest Bonnie Tyler theme Holding Out For A
Hero)

Everything you attribute to DC can be said of CA.
DC got his start on stage then went to TV.
CA got his start on Stage then went to TV. You are incorrect when you say CA never really/hardly ever performed on stage as In Spite of just related
to you.
Each of DC specials got progressively more elaborate.
Each of CA specials got progressively more elaborate.
DC did not manifest/show his ability to levitate prior to his TV specials.
CA did not manifest/show his ability to levitate prior to his TV specials.

CA even does a few of the same tricks that DC did. Surely CA was aware of the Saw illusion and he basically duplicated it. That is a form of respect
to do another magicians illusion/trick.

True, CA does "physical/endurance stunts" but he only did those in competition to his main TV/Public/NY rivial David Blaine. As Violet pointed out
CA doing an impression of DB is telling. People do impressions of people they either want to belittle and at the same time envy for their success. You
don't see DB doing a Impression of CA, which would be rather easy to do as well, given both have a certain "stage Persona".

Yeah it's a low levitation. Sorry it is an extremely long thread, and I just got in. But it shows that what he does are illusions, not miracles.
I'm an amateur magician/afficianado. I own 2 of the mastermind videos and a couple of seasons of mind freak on disc. He's a great performer.

So he lies? So what. We all lie. but that does NOT mean that we can be accused of lying every time we speak, now can it? you always try to twist
logic and facts, and I will not have it. Criss is just saying that he is not perfect and is just like all of us. How can you take a statement like
that and trumpet it as if it were some kind of ' Aha' moment? Maybe for a denier it is!! What else do they have?

You are again turing it on it's head to obfuscate the issue: You are saying " Prove that you do not beat you wife ". It is the same thing. It is
not up to ME to prove that plain and simple evidence is what it seems, it is up to YOU to prove that what we see on the high levitations is NOT what
was actually done. So far, ZERO proof has been given for that. It is all supposition.

You are the one's that are claiming that Criss is using props on the high levitations, so YOU should at least be able to come up with ONE itty
bitty teenie weenie spectacle of eveidence to prove yopur allegation. ONE witness alleging a payoff ( don't like to bring the odds on that one up,
now do you ?)..ONE employee who has inside knowledge of the scam...ONE other competitor of Criss who can replicate the same events as seen WITH props
to show us how it's done ( your excuse for this makes people either laugh or detest you for your gaul)... ONE second of film that has been altered to
deceive...and I do NOT mean looking at shadows and angles , but something substantial and evidential.

So far, not ONE of those things has been offered as proof. Instead, what do we get? Guesses, assumptions, allegations, suppositions and odds so far
out that there are not enough zero's in all the Cheerio's every made to calculate them....and yet the deniers stand BOLD and demand that they MUST
be right because..because...well, because people just cannot do it, thats why!! like a petulant brat who cannot answer a question, they just stomp
their foot and demand that WE prove whose hand is stuck in the cookie jar!!

You offer NOTHING but words and guesses, never any proof. Hey, when did you quit beating you wife?

Maybe I missed it but have you presented even one piece of evidence other than CA's own productions of his own events?

So lets see so far you have admitted that CA lies, has edited video (remeber way back when we first discussed the B to B Levitation?), and has used
plants in the audience. And still you believe his other levitations to be the complete truth of the event? PT Barnum would have loved you EW.

You continually take anything we present and brush it off without any response to our findings other than your "NOTHING, ZERO" comments.
Do you honestly think that CA is stupid enough to blatently include evidence of props in his video productions? We have 2 people speak of the NDA's
they had to sign in other fields and yet you can't believe CA would do the same to insure his premier illusion would be kept secret?

That's enough for now as we will never get anywhere in a meaningful debate as you refuse to answer any questions with anything other than insults or
another question. Try giving an answer once in a while.

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