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Author
Topic: What To Do With Anti-Gay Marriage Family/Friends (Read 12464 times)

I've talked about my partner's family being all Republican except for his mother. Even though his father is a Republican, he has been very good about the gay issue. His father has actually gone to a fundraiser in support of gay marriage. I have felt we could disagree on politics and still get along very well. His mother created a rule that there is to be no political arguments at family gatherings. It works pretty well for the most part.

Then there is the sister-in-law I've talked about here before. She has become increasingly a religious nut. When I first met her, my gaydar went off the charts. We actually believe this whole religious thing is cover for her trying to pray the gay away. Last summer, a friend, who is very active in gay rights, asked me to send out petitions to family and friends to support gay marriage and the right for gays to serve in the military. My partner's parents were the only ones to return the petition. One sister claimed she never received the petition in the mail, but said she would have signed it. I contacted his brother and sister-in-law to see if they got it. I got back a message saying they loved us and feel we have the right to be together, but believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I told her she didn't return the part about DADT, so I guess they are against gays serving in the military, too. I got no response. Well, this led to a big fight. I told her we could disagree on tax and war policy, but this issue was about our right to to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness just like they have. His brother and sister-in-law are both on their 2nd marriages. I explained churches wouldn't have to perform gay marriages. Churches can deny to perform marriages of people of different faiths. This was about the state recognizing it. I asked why her husband should have the right to marry just because she has a vagina, but his brother can't choose who he wants to be with. I shouldn't have expected any less from her after she said I must not believe in God because I believe there is life besides here on Earth.

Since that time, I've been cordial to her and his brother, but things have changed between us. We use to hang out, but that has changed. We have felt it was a huge slap to us. We feel family comes first. When we had the big blow up, I asked her whether they will follow everything in the Bible literally. That means not wearing clothing made of more than one material, working on the Sabbath, women are property and shouldn't go to church while on their periods--well, you guys know all the silly stuff. I talked to her about the teachings of Christ that were all about the poor and sick. I asked her how much they gave to charity. Why they feel people should be responsible for their own healthcare. Why they support policies that benefit the rich at the expense of the poor and sick. Anyway, I've just tried to move on. However, she has become more political and joining all these conservative groups on facebook. When I read through those conservative groups, there is so much talk about the recent gay marriage decision and how awful it is. They talk about how being gay is wrong. When I asked her about this, she says just because she's a member of that group doesn't mean she shares all their opinions. I told her it would be like joining a group that talked negatively about black people. I told her it reminds me of people who had slaves, but said they treated their slaves good. I know that isn't a good analogy, but that is what I thought.

After her joining groups like this that not only are against gay marriage but say being gay is wrong, I just don't see how I can even be cordial to her. I hate to cause a huge ordeal where we won't come to family gatherings that they are at, but that is how I'm feeling. I know I can't let her affect how I feel. I have bigger things to worry about like my health. When this all blew up last summer, it caused me so much stress. My CD4 after that dropped in the 500's. So, I know I have to defriend her on facebook so I won't get updates on which groups she joins. And, I shouldn't even look at those groups knowing it will only upset me. I know I only have the power as to whether I let her upset me. I just don't know whether to pretend all is okay--that's not very healthy. Or, go to family gatherings and totally ignore her--that would get awkward and cause others to feel uncomfortable. Or, just find out whether she is going to be there and not go--well, that would knock out Thanksgiving and Christmas. Or, keep engaging her and try to change her mind on this issue. She recently mentioned how her husband was changing jobs and could use her insurance. Without being a smartass, I said if we were allowed to marry we could have that option. Maybe if she realized all the benefits she has being married, she would see our point. Although, I'm not sure I should, in 2010, have to try to get her to see the light and what is right. I feel like even if you were against gay marriage, your love for family should trump that. If not, then you care more about things people who didn't understand the concept of fire wrote.

If you can't avoid her, or cut her out of your life, why be cordial? be confrontational. Maybe she will do the cutting out, and save your family further drama.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

You can argue with her, you can try to persuade her, you can avoid the issue but you need to accept she doesn't share your beliefs and may never change her mind. Many families have to deal with similar issues. One of my sisters is very religious and my younger brother is very atheistic-- he told my sister her belief in God was "complete superstitious bullshit" over Thanksgiving dinner. Neither is going to change their mind so both agreed to be respectfull of each other... and not bring this topic up over holidays because the rest of us don't want to hear it.

I wasn't too sure on how I should respond to you, because you are such a nice guy, but at some point Ted, you need to draw a line with this woman. I can tell you that she will never, ever, ever, ever, see your point of view, because she lacks empathy and truly believes there is something inherently wrong, with you and your partner, because you are GAY. That being said should make you feel very relieved and I will tell you why. Now that you know her "true colors", your sole mission should be to nullify, any effect her bigotry has on the two of you and I'll tell you just how to do it.

But before I do that, I want to help you understand who has the problem here and who has the responsibility to fix it. You have politely explained how her hurtful views impact you both and that puts her on the defensive end of things. Given what you describe, your families are very important to you and there is no way in hell that I would let that woman diminish one moment of enjoyment that you get from family. So this leaves you both with a choice. You can either cede all family functions, to her, when she attends, or you can also attend and stand your ground.

When you attend an event, be cordial to her, but nothing more. If others ask why you all seem a little distance, tell the truth: "She has said some very hurtful things to us and any distance is one that she created. I want to remain cordial, because we are family, but I don't wish to talk about it." Then, hopefully, they will press you for more details and it is your option on how you respond. My point being, that she has said hateful things, you have been hurt and she is damaging the family. Her views and opinions can either change, or she can become adept in keeping her thoughts to herself. However, if at a family event, she even utters anything hateful, well this is why we have the social setting nuclear option.

I rarely suggest this option, because it is drastic, dramatic and will cause her a world of hurt, from the family, because if you do it, every family member will know exactly what she thinks of you both. Fortunately, the only supplies you will need are your partner and your voice. At the next event, if you begin to have a problem with her, stand up and and in a loud voice, say something like the following:

"Jane, why do you refuse to understand, how hurtful it is when you say that, Bob and I are not entitled to equal civil rights that all Americans enjoy? Even after I told you how painful it is, when you denigrate us both, simply because we are gay and I(We) find it just too difficult to be around you and your hateful ideas". This is followed by quickly thanking the hosts and departing the event. If possible, you may want to hide a recording device, because that event will have just gone nuclear, with your sweet sister-in-law at ground zero.

Lastly, let me caution you about apologising to anyone for your actions, do not do it. It is her actions, her words and deeds that have caused you pain and you have every right to express that pain. Your goal here is to put her on the defensive, so she has to explain how she feels entitled to belittle you and your partner. Never underestimate the power of family to bitch slap in unison.

What is her opinion on civil unions that carry equal rights (ie insurance) but are specifically not called 'marriage'? I'm asking because if she were against them, I would agree with you that this person was against who you are and hence difficult to be around. But if it's just a matter of nomenclature (ie naming), I think it's not worth the hassle and aggravation.

What is her opinion on civil unions that carry equal rights (ie insurance) but are specifically not called 'marriage'? I'm asking because if she were against them, I would agree with you that this person was against who you are and hence difficult to be around. But if it's just a matter of nomenclature (ie naming), I think it's not worth the hassle and aggravation.

Why don't you simply stop trying to offer advice around gay issues. You have overwhelmingly shown your ignorance to what it is like being gay in this world. Your constant attempt to "explain" a homophobic stance is, frankly, tiring -- not to mention wrong. If you think after reading what was written that this situation boils down to semantics, you are even crazier than you appear.So -- offer your support and advice to HIV issues, but stay out of the gay ones. You have shown your biases too many times to count now. At the end of the day you are as bad as his sister-in-law.

Why don't you simply stop trying to offer advice around gay issues. You have overwhelmingly shown your ignorance to what it is like being gay in this world. Your constant attempt to "explain" a homophobic stance is, frankly, tiring -- not to mention wrong. If you think after reading what was written that this situation boils down to semantics, you are even crazier than you appear.So -- offer your support and advice to HIV issues, but stay out of the gay ones. You have shown your biases too many times to count now. At the end of the day you are as bad as his sister-in-law.Mike

What - you have a monopoly to the truth? Maybe there is more to the world than ppl who are homophobes and gay rights activists, did that cross your mind? I think a neutral perspective would be refreshing.

Boze, if our gay members would rather you didn't give advice on gay-specific concerns, then I suggest you heed their wishes. It's not for you, as a heterosexual, to say if your advice in these areas is off the mark or not. I would say the same thing to a gay member who was posting off the mark advice over a straight-specific concern. Your gay-related advice isn't wanted, so why give it?

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

However, she has become more political and joining all these conservative groups on facebook. When I read through those conservative groups, there is so much talk about the recent gay marriage decision and how awful it is. They talk about how being gay is wrong. When I asked her about this, she says just because she's a member of that group doesn't mean she shares all their opinions. I told her it would be like joining a group that talked negatively about black people. I told her it reminds me of people who had slaves, but said they treated their slaves good. I know that isn't a good analogy, but that is what I thought.

Boze,

I believe the issue here, is whether the woman believes that being gay is wrong. It is not an issue of civil unions vs. marriage. It is a very simple issue. Non-heterosexual Americans deserve the EXACT same civil rights, including marriage by the state, as straight Americans. The answer can only be yes, as anything less relegates all non-heterosexuals to second class status as citizens. In the eyes of the law, all Americans are created equally. Not straight people are more worthy than non-straights.

It really is that simple.

edited to add: Boze, I am going to throw down the gauntlet here and ask you to explain, to me, why you believe that straight Americans are more worthy of civil marriage than non-straights? I want to hear the explanation, without any references to religion, that substantiates your position. Straight up question. Your turn...

Boze, if our gay members would rather you didn't give advice on gay-specific concerns, then I suggest you heed their wishes. It's not for you, as a heterosexual, to say if your advice in these areas is off the mark or not. I would say the same thing to a gay member who was posting off the mark advice over a straight-specific concern. Your gay-related advice isn't wanted, so why give it?

I actually don't find Boze offensive (in this thread). I suppose to each his own.

Joe: He didn't SAY he was for civil unions or marriages. What he SAID was if the sister-in-law is okay with civil unions over say religious marriages, then she's not really against homosexuals per se, but against gay marriage being an issue forced on the church. If she's against civil unions as well then she is indeed a homophobe.

I know what he said and I am asking a real question, because he has balked at gay marriage and I want to know why. His suggestion for the SIL, is just another degree of denying equal rights, by creating a second class tier of citizens.

What - you have a monopoly to the truth? Maybe there is more to the world than ppl who are homophobes and gay rights activists, did that cross your mind? I think a neutral perspective would be refreshing.

Then please bring a neutral perspective in.... you are not neutral on this. You are simply trying to find a way where it's "ok" to discriminate. I might agree on the "semantics" if marriage and civil unions were equal -- but they are not. All the laws that give the married their rights and responsibilities don't apply to civil unions. I've been with my partner for 20 yrs -- my two brothers didn't make it that long with their wives. However, if either brother died tomorrow their EX-wives would be eligible to receive their SS benefits. If I died tomorrow, my CURRENT partner would not. Why -- because they go to MARRIED SPOUSES. So shove your semantics up your ass.

I have a slightly different take on this. I think all people should have civil unions. That would include gay, straight, et al.

If the heteros want to have some swami bless their civil union and call it marriage, so be it. But legally, all would be subject to the same rules, same benefits.

As far as I am concerned, churches already have far too much sway in this country. Its time we started putting them in their place and limiting their influence on the rest of us.

As far as the original question, I have distanced myself from members of my extended family because of the views they hold and who insisted on lording them over me.

I would do the same with friends if they persist in pushing their views on me. If we agree to disagree and carry on without the drama, then that is fine.

Life is too short to be saddled with negativity and hatred. Why do you think I left the Catholic Church - years ago!

HUGS,

Mark

In absolute agreement. Especially regarding the church thing. That preacher who wanted to burn holy books? Tax-deductable. I feel the same way about religious entities as prudes who are "tolerant" have about marijuana. Legalize it, and tax the hell out of it.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I have a slightly different take on this. I think all people should have civil unions. That would include gay, straight, et al.

If the heteros want to have some swami bless their civil union and call it marriage, so be it. But legally, all would be subject to the same rules, same benefits.

As far as I am concerned, churches already have far too much sway in this country. Its time we started putting them in their place and limiting their influence on the rest of us.

As far as the original question, I have distanced myself from members of my extended family because of the views they hold and who insisted on lording them over me.

I would do the same with friends if they persist in pushing their views on me. If we agree to disagree and carry on without the drama, then that is fine.

Life is too short to be saddled with negativity and hatred. Why do you think I left the Catholic Church - years ago!

HUGS,

Mark

110% agree "marriage" is not, i repeat, not a church thing. the license comes from each individual state, not the church. the divorce comes from the state, not the church. if the state is not issuing licenses to a couple that wants it then they are being discriminated against. the ceremony that people have to show off could be held anywhere but unless they have that license from the state then no marriage exists. so change the damn thing to civil unions for everyone and if you're straight and want a "marriage" ceremony then pick your favorite controlling church and go for it. religions were developed to keep the masses in line and apparently it works.

I appreciate all the responses and advice. My "brother-in-law" is one of the sweetest guys I know, but she has changed him. No one in the family really likes her. She has upset so many with her judgmental rants about how one sister isn't raising her kids right to the gay issue. For someone who should not judge people, she is the most judgmental person I've ever met. But, that seems to be how so many "religious" people are these days.

Kill, thanks for the advice. I think that is exactly how we need to be with her. I just feel really big on family and that you should support family no matter what--unless they want to commit murder or something. I mean support them in anything that won't hurt someone else. You're right, she will not change. She is someone who believes Sarah would make a great president, so that tells you a lot.

You know, if she followed the Bible to the word, I think I would give her some slack--not much, but some. For some reason, I find it more insulting to pick and choose things out of the Bible. To me, this means she just doesn't like gays. If you are going to quote the Bible to me, like she did, then I want her to follow it. Her son moved out to be with his dad. Her daughter is acting out really bad getting into trouble. I think she thinks the devil has just gotten to them. She can't see they can't stand to be around her. And, I find it hurtful when she talks about benefits married people have in front of us like the insurance issue. I thought it was so funny when she told one of our nephews, "Give that to Ted." The little boy said, "You mean Uncle Ted." I gave him a high 5. I'm sure he didn't understand. They all call me Uncle Ted. She did it on purpose because I've heard her call others Uncle Jamie, etc.

Mark, you're absolutely right. EVERYONE should have civil unions and if they want that union sanctioned by their church, that's their right. I hate how the religious-right-wingnuts carry on about the Constitution ad nauseum, but when it comes to separation of church and state, they get oddly amnesiatic.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Be careful of this lady, she is a cancer to all the other relationships you have in the family. She could care less about you and probably goes out of her way to undermine your relationship. The reason I say this is due to my own experience.

I haven't spoken to my brother and sister in almost 6 years. I got tired of the comments regarding my kids being bi-racial. I still don't quite get the joke my brother made years back at Christmas time about how confusing it was to buy my daughter's baby doll because he couldn't figure out which color to get.... There was a ton of other shit and it just seemed they couldn't get past their own perceived notion of what a relationship is. What bothers us most about these situations Teddy, is these people smile in our faces while we sit there looking at them knowing exactly how they really feel about us. It sucks.

Somehow I've escaped these family problems, and this is with me the gay pozzie at family holidays, plus my sister-in-law's sister who has three bi-racial babies out of wedlock running around. And everyone's a church goer too, and they all live in the South. The bi-racial stuff was an issue at first, but that died down after the first year (my grandmother, when she first saw a picture of the child, said: "is that baby foreign? She looks foreign!" as nobody would tell her the father was black). To this day the biggest deal is the out-of-wedlock factor, nothing else.

As the gay boy they all look at me as some sort of exotic cultural achievement and source of aesthetic advice. Then again, I never brought the muscular Nigerian partner home though I wish I had. That definitely would have been really enjoyable.

Otherwise for advice Teddy, I'd just ignore the repellant family member as much as possible -- you're stuck with her at family events I suppose.

Sorry, but I will never accept anything less that full equal rights. Civil unions are just another term for separate and unequal and the entire point of equality is having the exact SAME rights. Marriage has been ruled a fundamental right, by the Supreme court and unless the government, can show a substantial function of government is being met, by denying non-straights all equal rights, any laws that seek to do so, are thereby unconstitutional. This issue goes far beyond the civil right of marriage, it affects all non-straights, by discriminating against them, to the tune of about 1,500 federal benefits that apply only to those who are married. Last time I checked, our founding documents state that "All men are created equal..." and provide for the separation of church and state. Civil rights are those bestowed by the government and as such, apply to every American, regardless of sexuality. Anything less is unconstitutional, period.

Sorry, but I will never accept anything less that full equal rights. Civil unions are just another term for separate and unequal and the entire point of equality is having the exact SAME rights. Marriage has been ruled a fundamental right, by the Supreme court and unless the government, can show a substantial function of government is being met, by denying non-straights all equal rights, any laws that seek to do so, are thereby unconstitutional. This issue goes far beyond the civil right of marriage, it affects all non-straights, by discriminating against them, to the tune of about 1,500 federal benefits that apply only to those who are married. Last time I checked, our founding documents state that "All men are created equal..." and provide for the separation of church and state. Civil rights are those bestowed by the government and as such, apply to every American, regardless of sexuality. Anything less is unconstitutional, period.

edited to add: Boze, I am going to throw down the gauntlet here and ask you to explain, to me, why you believe that straight Americans are more worthy of civil marriage than non-straights? I want to hear the explanation, without any references to religion, that substantiates your position. Straight up question. Your turn...

I never said that - Hellraiser has correctly rephrased my point. I just thought that having a family spat over semantics would not be worth the trouble. I didn't closely read the full post regarding the parts that made her seem more homophobic.

If you want my opinion - I think real issue is making sure that equal rights apply to gay unions. What you call that union is less important, however that is what seems to be the divisive issue.

If you want my opinion - I think real issue is making sure that equal rights apply to gay unions. What you call that union is less important, however that is what seems to be the divisive issue.

Are you really as stupid as this makes you seem?? We've told you why this isn't a "semantics" things -- there are actual, tangible differences IN THE FUCKING LAW between Unions and Marriage. The real issue is about not being able to married by the state -- which would confer all these laws on to us. So instead of changeing hundreds and hundreds of laws, regulations, etc -- wouldn't it by easier to just let us all be equal. Straight people don't get to own a right and keep it from others, at least not under our Constitution. You know the Constitution -- the thing that your ilk reveres -- until it's convenient to push it aside to keep yourself above the rest.Why don't you heed Ann's advice and stay out of this -- you can not possibly know or understand what we are talking about -- you've clearly shown that.

edited to ad -- I don't want your opinion -- it's is as unimportant as it is uninformed in this particular discussion.

I never said that - Hellraiser has correctly rephrased my point. I just thought that having a family spat over semantics would not be worth the trouble. I didn't closely read the full post regarding the parts that made her seem more homophobic.

If you want my opinion - I think real issue is making sure that equal rights apply to gay unions. What you call that union is less important, however that is what seems to be the divisive issue.

I'm sure if a poll was conducted 8 out of 10 forums members wouldn't wipe their asses with your opinon. The other two would be terrified that they might contract HIV should they consider your opinion.

If you weren't the person you are with the forums history you have, there might be some merit in paying attention what you have to say on these sorts of culture war subjects,

But noting your posting record it seems prudent to conclude that this is just another of your ever more wearisome attempts to put one over on teh gheys.

Are you really as stupid as this makes you seem?? We've told you why this isn't a "semantics" things -- there are actual, tangible differences IN THE FUCKING LAW between Unions and Marriage. The real issue is about not being able to married by the state -- which would confer all these laws on to us. So instead of changeing hundreds and hundreds of laws, regulations, etc -- wouldn't it by easier to just let us all be equal. Straight people don't get to own a right and keep it from others, at least not under our Constitution. You know the Constitution -- the thing that your ilk reveres -- until it's convenient to push it aside to keep yourself above the rest.Why don't you heed Ann's advice and stay out of this -- you can not possibly know or understand what we are talking about -- you've clearly shown that.

edited to ad -- I don't want your opinion -- it's is as unimportant as it is uninformed in this particular discussion.

Your belligerence is astounding - whoever isn't 100% in your camp must be a fucking idiot or wants to burn you on a cross. Let's simmer down the victim syndrome. I want you to have same rights, so maybe you should tone down the rhetoric.

Edit: victim syndrome - whereby anybody who doesn't fully agree with you is out to get you and must be destroyed

Your belligerence is astounding - whoever isn't 100% in your camp must be a fucking idiot or wants to burn you on a cross. Let's simmer down the victim syndrome. I want you to have same rights, so maybe you should tone down the rhetoric.

And still you're at it. You craft your posts to provoke a particular response. Your claims of "I want you to have the same rights" are neatly contradicted by your use of idiotic phrases like "victim syndrome".

Please, spare us the faux Socratic style. Your methods are transparent and your intentions are obvious.

And still you're at it. You craft your posts to provoke a particular response. Your claims of "I want you to have the same rights" are neatly contradicted by your use of idiotic phrases like "victim syndrome".

Please, spare us the faux Socratic style. Your methods are transparent and your intentions are obvious.

The term is "transference" and, alas, I'm none of those things. Neither especially intelligent nor in the slightest amusing -- I'm just a humble. plain speaking Aussie calling it as he sees it.

But, as luck would have it, I've got the measure of you.

Quote

I, meanwhile, merely pipe up to give my opinion on things that interest me. And yes, gay issues happen to be one of these things.

Yairs. I've noticed a particularly lavender thread running through your contributions. I've gotta tell you I don't agree with those around here who say you're just an HIV negative bomb chucker with too much time on his hands.

Rather I really do believe you are positive and I know you're angry about it. Angry as only a confused, older and increasingly irrelevant white guy can be.

You just can't accept that the decisions you've made in life have landed you in this grim predicament and, true to type, you need to lash out. Of course you can't do that at the local dirty magazine shop so an online community provides you with ample opportunity to even the score.

Which is a shame really. For you at any rate. For the rest of us you're just another jaded pothole on the great highway of life.

Maybe he's interested in all this cuz the guy who infected him offered to get him some free medical insurance once the law allowed.... I mean it's just my two cents, maybe I should stay out of this one.

Maybe he's interested in all this cuz the guy who infected him offered to get him some free medical insurance once the law allowed.... I mean it's just my two cents, maybe I should stay out of this one.

Heh

Boze is in the UK, all medical care is free there to everyone. At least that's my understanding of it.

I never said that - Hellraiser has correctly rephrased my point. I just thought that having a family spat over semantics would not be worth the trouble. I didn't closely read the full post regarding the parts that made her seem more homophobic.

If you want my opinion - I think real issue is making sure that equal rights apply to gay unions. What you call that union is less important, however that is what seems to be the divisive issue.

Your belligerence is astounding - whoever isn't 100% in your camp must be a fucking idiot or wants to burn you on a cross. Let's simmer down the victim syndrome. I want you to have same rights, so maybe you should tone down the rhetoric.

Edit: victim syndrome - whereby anybody who doesn't fully agree with you is out to get you and must be destroyed

What else offended you? Just curious.

So, you want me to have the same rights as you?? LIAR! You stated that Civil Unions should suffice. I pointed out how that doesn't work, -- yet you ignore that and simply label me a victim. You are using the same tired argument that is always used to stop equality -- let's give something similar to what we have -- but NOT exactly the same, because you are too different to have what I have. The rhetoric is all coming from your side. I'm simply throwing back some reality.

So -- again I will say -- stop trying to "help" us -- it isn't really your agenda anyway -- yours is to keep us in our place.

If you want my opinion - I think real issue is making sure that equal rights apply to gay unions. What you call that union is less important, however that is what seems to be the divisive issue.

You just don't get it. Until you understand why only EQUAL rights are an appropriate remedy and the ONLY lawful remedy, you will never relate to gay issues. Never, ever, ever, so do us all a favor and stop trying.

Were you trying to say that I should ask her how she feels about civil unions instead of marriage in order to test her? Did you mean this would tell me that this isn't about her "religious" beliefs as she claims, but a total dislike of gays. If she says she is also against civil unions, where you don't involve religion or the word marriage, then she obviously just doesn't like gay people. Otherwise, why would she care whether some bureaucrat gave us a piece of paper. Were you suggesting to test her with the word civil union but weren't saying to be satisfied with civil unions--which would not be equal and wouldn't carry all the benefits and responsibilities that marriage does.

Were you trying to say that I should ask her how she feels about civil unions instead of marriage in order to test her? Did you mean this would tell me that this isn't about her "religious" beliefs as she claims, but a total dislike of gays. If she says she is also against civil unions, where you don't involve religion or the word marriage, then she obviously just doesn't like gay people. Otherwise, why would she care whether some bureaucrat gave us a piece of paper. Were you suggesting to test her with the word civil union but weren't saying to be satisfied with civil unions--which would not be equal and wouldn't carry all the benefits and responsibilities that marriage does.

Yes, precisely. I was suggesting you try a middle ground with her - ask whether she would support Civil Unions (with all the same rights- ie health insurance, inheritance, legal protection, etc). There iIf she does - it looks like you are having a family spat over semantics. I'm not saying YOU should stop trying to fight for gay marriage - but if someone in your family is trying to reconcile two sets of beliefs (ie religious and interpersonal), it may be worthwhile to extend the olive branch. If she is just anti-gay, there is nothing you can do.

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Everybody else - I don't want to argue with you guys. This is a topic that's personal to most of you, I have no desire to rankle anybody's feathers if any mention of alternative view causes people such grief.

Yes, precisely. I was suggesting you try a middle ground with her - ask whether she would support Civil Unions (with all the same rights- ie health insurance, inheritance, legal protection, etc). There iIf she does - it looks like you are having a family spat over semantics. I'm not saying YOU should stop trying to fight for gay marriage - but if someone in your family is trying to reconcile two sets of beliefs (ie religious and interpersonal), it may be worthwhile to extend the olive branch. If she is just anti-gay, there is nothing you can do.

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Everybody else - I don't want to argue with you guys. This is a topic that's personal to most of you, I have no desire to rankle anybody's feathers if any mention of alternative view causes people such grief.

So, you have decided it for me. You really are simply a clueless, homophobic dolt. You think that separate but equal is a "middle ground". It isn't -- it is simply a way for hateful simpletons to feel that they are still superior to those "others".

As for not wanting to rankle anyone's feathers -- well, sweetheart, you clearly are a big fat liar on that (or dumber than even I think you are), for you come back time and time again to "rankle feathers". You can't even see just how offensive you really are here -- which is why I'm leaning toward stupidity over hate as your motivation. A number of us have pointed out how your "alternative" is pure and utter shit -- not able to even achieve want you think is equitable. A number of others have asked you to stay away because you clearly don't get it, but you refuse -- why?? I'm sure it is to "rankle feathers".

Try to get this simple idea through your thick head -- if you are against same-sex STATE marriage (not religious) and think that marriage should be left only to the straights, then you are, unabashedly, anti-gay. This is NOT a semantics game -- it isn't OK to "throw us a bone" in the form of civil unions. It is about our lives -- until you are denied a basic civil right, I think you simply keep your ideas, opinions and hot-air to yourself. Quite frankly my 9 year old grandson has a more charitable worldview than you do.

So, you have decided it for me. You really are simply a clueless, homophobic dolt. You think that separate but equal is a "middle ground". It isn't -- it is simply a way for hateful simpletons to feel that they are still superior to those "others".

As for not wanting to rankle anyone's feathers -- well, sweetheart, you clearly are a big fat liar on that (or dumber than even I think you are), for you come back time and time again to "rankle feathers". You can't even see just how offensive you really are here -- which is why I'm leaning toward stupidity over hate as your motivation. A number of us have pointed out how your "alternative" is pure and utter shit -- not able to even achieve want you think is equitable. A number of others have asked you to stay away because you clearly don't get it, but you refuse -- why?? I'm sure it is to "rankle feathers".

Try to get this simple idea through your thick head -- if you are against same-sex STATE marriage (not religious) and think that marriage should be left only to the straights, then you are, unabashedly, anti-gay. This is NOT a semantics game -- it isn't OK to "throw us a bone" in the form of civil unions. It is about our lives -- until you are denied a basic civil right, I think you simply keep your ideas, opinions and hot-air to yourself. Quite frankly my 9 year old grandson has a more charitable worldview than you do.

Mike

Bullshit. Some people want equal rights - that I'm 100% for. You want to ram down your worldview down the throat of 150m people who disagree. Your inflexibility is just as abhorent as the hick who hates you for who you are. I'm the one stuck in the middle.

Bullshit. Some people want equal rights - that I'm 100% for. You want to ram down your worldview down the throat of 150m people who disagree. Your inflexibility is just as abhorent as the hick who hates you for who you are. I'm the one stuck in the middle.

If your definition of inflexibility is insisting on full civil rights instead of separate but equal then I will gladly wear inflexibility as a badge of honor . You sound like a bigot from the 1950's telling people where to sit on a bus . You truly just don't get it and will be left on the wrong side of history .

Bullshit. Some people want equal rights - that I'm 100% for. You want to ram down your worldview down the throat of 150m people who disagree. Your inflexibility is just as abhorent as the hick who hates you for who you are. I'm the one stuck in the middle.

Bullshit. Some people want equal rights - that I'm 100% for. You want to ram down your worldview down the throat of 150m people who disagree. Your inflexibility is just as abhorent as the hick who hates you for who you are. I'm the one stuck in the middle.

there is no "middle" on a civil right, you either have them or don't. being inflexible is just fine with me and probably many others.

Bullshit. Some people want equal rights - that I'm 100% for. You want to ram down your worldview down the throat of 150m people who disagree. Your inflexibility is just as abhorent as the hick who hates you for who you are. I'm the one stuck in the middle.

Your stupidity just keeps shining through. I want nothing more than equality -- that is the worldview you accuse me of ramming down on 150m people. Equality means equal, the same for all, not different -- do you even GET THAT? You want nothing more than to keep what you have only for your kind. When someone talks about compromise on civil rights, it is just because they KNOW their preferred view (i.e. status quo) isn't right.

So stuff your middle up your ass - I'll bet there is some "flexibility" there to fit it.

Bullshit. Some people want equal rights - that I'm 100% for. You want to ram down your worldview down the throat of 150m people who disagree. Your inflexibility is just as abhorent as the hick who hates you for who you are. I'm the one stuck in the middle.

Your entire premise is bullshit, because all Americans WANT equal rights, it's just some other Americans who think that only straight people are entitled to them. History will prove you wrong and your pathetic whining about being stuck in the middle is laughable. You would not be stuck anywhere, if not for your bigoted rantings. Save me the poor me bullshit. I've had to tolerate bigots like you all my life and you will never prevent gays from having FULL EQUAL RIGHTS.

Please - it's all a matter of definition. I think civil right are the actual rights that go with marriage - insurance, hospital visits, property, etc. If the whole issue is about the actual word 'marriage', it is clearly just a culture war milestone, shoving it to the 150m hicks who are against it. I think American politics is too divisive already - every issue is split and causes people to spew hatred (Looking at you, Bocker).

If you want to have a wedding - fine by me, I am not against it. If two people care for each other and want to marry - let them do it. Probably would reduce philandering and disease progression.I just happen to see where the other side is coming from, hence I'm in the middle. And I'm not afraid to speak my mind - whether a couple of you express your outrage at the thought of someone in your midst who is so insensitive to actually bring up CU.