Some people will care about an issue and yet believe they are right and do not need to seek knowledge - and remain wrong.

I think this is really important here.

They are not mistaken, there is simply an objective here.

This means they can just make up some argument, and all the others who share the same ideals/objectives will accept it EVEN IF THEY SUSPECT ITS WRONG; they simply will not try to verify, because they want it to be right. Or rather, they want to have an excuse that allows them to appear virtuous in their defence of that objective.

In short: fits the narrative? Good and true. Doesn't fit narrative? Its a lie, its wrong, its misinterpreted.

Science is not going to help this situation. The people who put this law into effect just do not respect the rights of people to their own bodies. Teaching them more science will not change their fundamental lack of respect.

I remember that. Oh gosh. People who say these things know what they are doing. They are sadists. Sadists say and do shit to make people uncomfortable because it's only way their lizard brains can feel.

It's amazing how many women believe that the only woman who truly feels pain, or need, or is deserving of compassion is themselves. Their problems are the only real problems. Everyone else deserves what they get.

Of course, it's not just women. It's men, too. They too think that the abortions that benefit themselves are acceptable, for much the same reason.

You'd be surprised at how little some women know about their own bodies/basic anatomy. It was taboo to talk about during Boomer's time and it was still iffy during Gen x's growing up years. I've heard of grown women not understanding that we have three "holes" "down there". Not saying this is the case with these women. Just saying don't assume just because they are a woman they understand how women's bodies work and how women's bodies can vary.

In the context of her tweet, yes it makes sense that they may not know about period fluctuation by a span of 2 weeks. Woman may not know that. I believe it is more probable that those woman supported and made this bill BECAUSE they do know about it. These women oppose abortion. They are trying to find a way to make abortion illegal. Putting in an objective measurement, the presence of a heartbeat, that would prevent abortion after a time frame when many woman may not even suspect they are pregnant. Is indeed a way for them to do a backdoor ban.

Idk if you two downvoted each other or what, but I think you’re both right. I think there are people who do, and don’t understand women’s bodies writing the kind of legislation, and both women and men are capable of being ignorant or downright evil.

Well one thing I would like to stress. Do not look at the people who want to ban abortion as evil or ignorant. It is a debate centered on an opinion so an actual debate.

People who are pro-life believe that the moment the egg and the sperm join to form a zygote it is alive. That single celled organism that can develop into a human as much capacity as you or I and all that entails, is alive. You cannot say that factually they are wrong. It has the capacity to be a human being. That is undeniable of a zygote. They believe the capacity confers to it the qualities of being alive. So to abort that you are functionally killing another human being. I believe we can agree that murdering an innocent party is wrong so abortions are the end of a human life to pro-life people.

Pro-choice people believe that your body is entirely your own. Until the zygote develops to the point of being viable outside of the womb it is not alive for it has no capacity to survive on its own. Things go wrong and people could learn that against their best wishes they got pregnant. So they would like the ability to make a choice and have control over their own life not be subject to the whims of something that has the capacity to be like them (the zygote/fetus) at the cost of their personal current capacity and the trials and difficulties that raising a child entails.

While you may not agree with someone on something I implore you to not just look at people as evil. People may be ignorant of something but that does not mean the darkness of ignorance cannot be illuminated by the light of knowledge and both parties can share their opinions and learn from one another in reasoned discourse. If you look at people with a differing view as evil or ignorant and they are wrong that just further divides humans and creates situations like partisan politics. Where minimal gets done and there is the perception of you are either A or Z and people just ignore everything inbetween.

For real, being ignorant is one thing but once you start passing laws that affect millions of people's bodies and lives that's when you lose your "just being ignorant" pass. That's when it starts becoming a true problem.

Well, that and when you start protesting outside abortion clinics trying to shame people on what may be one of the worst days of their lives. Then you just become a shit person.

Then the "pro life" people need to start banning IVF. Just think of all the zygotes in petri dishes and clinic freezers! If life began the instant egg and sperm met then would discarding unused embryos be considered an abortion? What about deliberately using several and knowing most will fail to implant?

The difference there is the intent for them to survive. Those are people actively working to procreate. Sexual reproduction is a horribly faulty process. With a lot of failures. There are instances where zygotes can fail to bind to the uteran wall and die. Is it an abortion for the natural processes of the human body to take place and chances do not go as desired? No.

But currently there are dozens of fertilized eggs frozen and waiting to be implented. These "human lives" are kept in storage or just discarded if not needed. Yet nobody seems to care about these humans. But care a lot if the same kinda clump cells is inside a womb.

that is exceedingly cruel to people who use IVF. They care a LOT about those. No person resorts to IVF because they have an easy time having a child and they do not care about those zygotes. They care more than you could imagine about having a kid and wanting those to become their children. much of the time, those zygotes cannot and do not develop into an embryo. I have friends who went with IVF because both parents were Cistic Fibrosis carriers, they wanted a child but didn't want to risk that child dying young and agonizingly because of a genetic malady. We currently do not have the technological means for a zygote to develop into a embryo then fetus then full baby outside of the human womb. Once we reach that point of technology that is surely to become a topic of interest about those unused zygotes. A zygote outside of the womb currently has 0 chance of becoming a human, precluding it from the capacity to be a fully formed human. When A woman is pregnant by the implantation of these zygotes, which they do implant in large quantities because most are indeed going to fail when they are attempted to be transplanted, that cluster of cells then has the capacity to be a human. Once a woman is pregnant and an embryo does form. So that is where a critical distinction is to be had.

​

as an aside I am not saying I agree with their perspective, I believe that allowing people to choose what to do with their body is the right thing and am personally pro choice. But considering why the opposing side has their opinion and their belief is very important. The debate between pro-life and pro-choice will likely never be 'resolved' and one side wins. Some people will always believe that as soon as that embryo begins to form, that it is alive and a human. Therefore an abortion is murder because you killed a human being. While others will always believe it is their right to choose what happens with their body and their personal life. The embryo is not alive and a person until it is capable of self sustainability and there can be extenuating circumstances that make caring for a child untenable for the parent(s). which then when you follow the debate line it goes into a wide range of other smaller points to the debate far larger than just being pro-life or pro-choice. Because there is a range, some people believe that abortion should be illegal under any circumstance, some believe it should be illegal except in the case of the life of the child, or the life of the mother, or in the case of rape. Or illegal after the first trimester. or so many other variable lines they could draw in the sand.

Women not knowing they have "three holes down there" is apparently common enough that there were a couple of scenes based around it in Orange is the New Black. If so many women don't even know their own bodies and how they work, let alone a bunch of stuffy old men, then the root of the problem is in the education system. There needs to be better sex ed at the k-12 level if we're ever going to stamp out ignorance/unawareness of the human body, male and female.

Not in Canada, so I would have to venture to say this is an American issue. Your reluctance to teach anything even remotely useful in regards to the human body be it male or female is pretty astounding actually.

It seems ignorant to assume this is because of ignorance, I think they know exactly what they're doing, and using this as a way to say "look! We haven't banned it, just put some reasonable guidelines on it!" Even though it's a crock of shit.

But the guideline is not reasonable if you are knowledgeable about female reproductive biology.

It embodies assumptions that many men have about periods. That the arrive every four weeks, that missing one guarantees you’re pregnant, that having one means you’re not. As well as that “abortion on demand” means you can just walk into the clinic that’s open 24/7 on every corner and walk out with a free abortion pill. As well as that being on the pill is 100 percent effective and anyone can take it so you have no “excuse” to get pregnant accidentally.

Who are these ignorant boys and why does anybody vote for them? It's beyond me. Any married man knows a woman's body is anything but predictable. These guys should be happy they're getting laid and let women manage their own affairs.

She said what we were all thinking. But to be fair they probably also know nothing about a man’s body because that’s gay and sinful. Also medicine is sinful. Just pray the cancer away, that’s the way they roll.

As someone with PCOS, I haven't ever had a regular period. At 16 it was one every 3 months. Now that I have an IUD, I haven't had one for 7 years. Can we maybe appeal this on ADA grounds? Just a new direction to consider, as those laws are pretty clear.

This is just a move to get the issue before the Supreme Court so they can overturn Roe v. Wade. It doesn't even matter if they know anything about women's bodies or not. They want control. They want christian sharia law.

I'm sorry, but about half of the women in this country are pro life. So even if it is a man that signed the bill, he is a representative of U.S citizens which include women. I just don't like the idea that it is men behind the pro life movement and we just don't want women to have choices. I have a mother and sister. I care about them very much. My opinion is that abortion is immoral and that's about the end of it. I'm not religious, I don't hate women, I just think at the end of the day I can't stand there and say that i think it's ok. Men aren't he enemy here. You can have an opinion and not hate women.
edit:https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

Yes, but you're the one who's going to have pregnant women get their vaginas invaded and cut up by doctors against their will because you don't understand how fetuses don't have a superior right over women's bodies and lives.

I'm not having trouble understanding anything. That's where we differ. I don't think fetuses have any superior rights over a woman's body. I think that it is a life and it has the right to exist, just like everyone else. I don't understand why you want to just jump right into throwing insults around. Honestly, if you think that there is something that I don't understand why would you call me names instead of trying to enlighten me? You are the one who sounds ignorant here.

I think that it is a life and it has the right to exist, just like everyone else.

So, why don't you donate your organs to someone who needs it. Do you have both kidneys and both lungs? Someone needs them right now to live, why aren't you? Why do you demand other people suffer and die for you, instead of walking the walk yourself.

Honestly, if you think that there is something that I don't understand why would you call me names instead of trying to enlighten me?

I didn't call you any name. Check on your understanding of the English language please.

I'm Jawn91, I was having trouble getting into my account for some reason.

I am an organ donor, but I don't see what that has to do with our conversation.

I'm not demanding anyone suffer or die for me? Not really sure where you are going with that. It's really very simple, I think that once the egg is fertilized by the sperm, a life begins to form. You don't and that's fine.

Sorry, English is a second language for me. I guess calling someone ignorant would be considered just an insult instead. Still, I think you understood my point, which is that you started off this conversation being pretty hostile. Is that how you talk to people in person? You just walk up and say "you're ignorant because you don't share my opinions."

I am an organ donor, but I don't see what that has to do with our conversation.

You mean after you are dead, which doesn't affect you anymore.

If pregnancy only occurred to corpses it wouldn't matter at all. No one would need an abortion.

I'm not demanding anyone suffer or die for me?

You're demanding others suffer and die for your ideology that places fetus as superior to their rights.

Have you ever given birth or witnessed someone give birth. My cousin recently did, and almost died 3 times. She lost 2 quarts of blood and needed 25 stitches in her vagina. It was completely sudden. Her pregnancy was healthy in every other way and she was very healthy. You wish to take away her constitutional right to self defense and force her in the future to suffer the same risks, with no payment. Even people in the military get paid, and they don't even have a 100% injury rate that giving birth does. Yet we pay them for their trouble, because otherwise it would be slavery. So...where's the payment for your conscription of women's bodies against their will?

You don't and that's fine.

Nope. Wrong. I do. But no one living person ever gets the right to harm me against my consent as a legally abiding person, even if they are innocent and even if they die. You take these rights for granted every day. You wish to make women bleed quarts of blood out of their genitalia (!!!) with no draft, no just compensation, no due process, no means of arbitration, no right to say no.

Because you consider fetuses not just people, but a special, superior kind of person that gets to hurt women as long as they can "live".

I think you understood my point, which is that you started off this conversation being pretty hostile.

You're wrong and I understand why you would be defensive, but I am not being hostile.

Perhaps you should learn more about the rights you take for granted or else you should be donating your kidney right now, not after you're a corpse.

You have made two more assumptions about my character and I'm just going to ask you to stop. I realize that it is easier to pretend like everyone that disagrees with you is just some ignorant evil person, but I'm not. And I'm not going to reveal my identity so explaining to you how you are wrong would be fruitless. Just to assume that I have never known anyone who has given birth, or had complications, come on. I mean, I'm almost laughing right now. I'm not though. So please stop with the assumptions. If you agree that the fetus is a life then what about that right to self defense? Do you really need me to explain the hypocrisy of your argument? Not only that, but I'm actually able to admit that there are some circumstances where forcing someone to give birth would be cruel, unusual, and unconstitutional. Nobody out there disagrees that if a woman is risking death that she should be able to choose. I also agree that there are other circumstances. For you to just sit here and say that a baby is nothing more than a parasite feeding off of the mother is insane to me. I'm sorry, it just is. Allow me to make an assumption about you now, you aren't a parent. I would be willing to bet on that. I'm guessing that you support abortion no matter what? It can never be wrong to terminate a life? Perhaps you should learn more about the rights that you take for granted. I would honestly rather not continue here, You clearly aren't willing to even hear anything I'm saying and honestly, you just seem nasty and condescending. Not to mention you think that anyone who let's say, maybe didn't get the education that you did or doesn't speak English as a first language is just stupid and they don't deserve an opinion. Go ahead, I'll let you get the last word...

to pretend like everyone that disagrees with you is just some ignorant evil person, but I'm not

What?

And I'm not going to reveal my identity so explaining to you how you are wrong would be fruitless

What. How does revealing your identity prove anything and who asked for that?

If you agree that the fetus is a life then what about that right to self defense?

Does your penis have a right to self defense if its inside my body without consent?

It would be different if it was a mother inside a fetus, but it's not. Is the mother crawling inside the fetus's organs to use them to grow? Are you suggesting it's like that?

Do you really need me to explain the hypocrisy of your argument?

You know, I think if you could actually explain it, you would. But a fetus, nor any person, has no right to life if they are violating the bodily autonomy of another person. You might as well say if you were raping me I should consider your right to life, even if you are inside me.

For you to just sit here and say that a baby is nothing more than a parasite feeding off of the mother is insane to me.

Didn't say that either. Who are you arguing with?

Allow me to make an assumption about you now, you aren't a parent. I would be willing to bet on that.

Maybe you should realize there are plenty of pro-choice parents. What a silly statement.

lling to bet on that. I'm guessing that you support abortion no matter what? It can never be wrong to terminate a life? Perhaps you should learn more about the rights that you take for granted. I would honestly rather not continue here, You clearly aren't willing to even hear anything I'm saying and honestly, you just seem nasty and condescending. Not to mention you think that anyone who let's say, maybe didn't get the education that you did or doesn't speak English as a first language is just stupid and they don't deserve an opinion. Go ahead, I'll let you get the last word...

Whatever I said to you that touched a nerve like this, I'm sorry. I recommend you to read the rules of this sub that states even if you feel offended, it doesn't give you the right to behave this way. BTW, My SO is trilingual and a non-native speaker. Nice try. : )

meaning we are online. I can sit here and say i have donated a kidney. I can say my mother died during child birth, I can even say my SO is multilingual but it wouldn't matter because nobody is going to prove anything. Read your own comments, why are you acting so surprised that i'm responding and questioning the things you say? Honestly, like are you really shocked that I'm not playing nice with you? Look at the way you started this conversation. Learn how to conduct yourself. Your hypocrisy is this. You believe that a mother has the right to terminate a life, to protect her own body. Yet you afford no rights or importance to the fetus itself. You keep accusing me of thinking that the fetus has superior rights, when I never said that. In fact, you are the one giving superior rights to one life over another. You have already said that you think it counts as a life, so either you were mistaken or you are just plain wrong. Your hypocrisy is that you think it's okay to terminate another life, in order to make sure yours is comfortable. Also, I think you need to learn how pregnancy works. The baby isn't stealing anything from the mother. I'm sure there are tons of pro choice parents, but in talking to you and the way that you speak about it. It is just so obvious. It's a difficult decision. It's not like getting a tooth pulled. It didn't touch a nerve. You are arrogant, that's all. Like I said before, you are just nasty and condescending. And the thing is, we could have had a nice conversation. I have tons of friends who disagree with me. They know why I feel the way I do, and I know why they feel the way they do. You just jump right out of the gate with "you're ignorant, learn the English language." It's annoying. You're an annoying person. And what I said about you needing to vilify people who disagree with you? I stand by it, I think it is probably pretty accurate.

I could say that you shouldn't call your movement pro choice since the baby doesn't get one. It isn't about taking choices away from women. It's not like I would suddenly be okay with abortion were it a man.

What someone does with her body must be that person's decision only. You, your church, and Republican government, need to let go of the need to control women's bodies. Just keep your nose out of it. If you're a woman and against an abortion - fine, don't get one, it's your choice, and I will fight for you to have that choice available should you need it.

Oh and don't call an embryo a baby. If you do, you might as well fight for condoms to be classified as weapons of mass destruction.

Well that's the idea of being "pro life" right? I'm not worried about your body, just the one growing inside of it. I don't have a church, I'm not religious. I just don't think that you should be able to decide who's life has value and who's doesn't. Sorry, I'm not just some evil old pedophile priest. I have an opinion and I'm not evil because it is different from yours. I don't think condoms are evil. Also, those women who are pro life aren't just talking about themselves. They also don't think that you should have the right to terminate a life.

But by saying that the value of an embryo trumps the value of life of the mother carrying the embryo you've effectively done just that - decided that the woman's life, her health don't matter as long as there's an embryo inside. Hypocritical, don't you find?

Didn't you check out the Gallup poll above? Seems to be about the same rate for both genders as a whole. I think this is just a narrative that AOC wants to feed to her supporters. Any data you have showing men are more likely? Even a quick Google search pretty much shows the same results as this Gallup poll.

That's the issue. She makes a lot of good points and has some very good ideas, but they get brushed off because of some of her incredibly naive ideas or complete lack of understanding of things she takes strong opinions on.

I mean half of the people behind the bill are women sooo. Things like this ignore the problem. It's not about men versus women. It's not about knowledge of the human body. Part if it is religious, part of it is people being ignorant and part of it is control I think. This issue has never even been discussed where I live in my 29 years. It's so obvious to us abortion can be a good thing or at least it's a necessary evil because the alternatives are worse.

Only discussion I've seen is when to draw the line on where you can choose to have one without there being a medical reason for it such as danger to the child or mother. And even then it's always pretty reasonable. Usually its between 4-6 months somewhere if I'm not mistaken that people want it to be depending on your view. Think my country is in the higher part of that range.

And there's very little stigma about it of people having one, it's just part of life sometimes.

However some people argue men should have no say etc which is ridiculous as that's not how democracy works. What is needed is for people to listen to the experts, doctors and scientist, and realise that even if you are against it for personal or religious reasons the benefits to having it or the problems banning it causes means you should be for it being legal anyway. But people not listening to the experts is a common theme these days sadly, maybe more so in the US than here but its definitely in decline everywhere.

With this issue though I think the problem.arises from the states in question being so religious and conservative. The solution is better and different education for its young people I think along with proper sex health classes which I bet s lot if them don't have.

I can't read. AOC took the jobs from NYC so my parents couldn't afford to get me to school everyday, and I am illiterate because of it. it's all her fault. She just eats her hamburgers and thinks we should outlaw cows. What did the cows do to her? They gave her wonderful juicy burgers, that's what. I had a hamburger once, it was really tasty. I eat cold chili from a can mostly. Sometimes cat food, because it is on sale. Thanks AOC.

I assume this is in reference to it being exhausting fighting against monumental idiots and idiocy on a daily basis...not so much a comment about how she should look or that how she looks prevents her from doing her job or having a valid opinion.

Hell if it were me, I'd look like a pile of trash. The unending assault on your sanity to fight for what is obviously right against this stupidity is unimaginable. There is only so much energy a person has. Stress wares on you. Man, woman, child.
While not something that should be said to her face as I'm sure it wouldn't be appreciated...the comment isn't making any statements about what she SHOULD look like or expectations on women per say.

On the contrary, I’ve seen him referred to as a turtle on more than a handful of occasions lol. And there are those pictures of Trump playing tennis wearing what appears to be some sort of giant man diaper.

In the end, I think you’re right that everyone needs to stop talking about how anyone looks because it’s not actually important!

High stress levels have a physical effect on the body. Skin gets worse. You get wrinkles and bags under the eyes. Want a example? Look at Obama at inauguration of his first term and look at him leaving at the end of his second term.

I interpreted their comment as having nothing to do with the fact that she is a woman, or attacking her validity or right to her position, but more about how her dedication to her job and doing the right thing in such a corrupt misogynistic industry is wearing her down, like it would anyone. Doing your best, fighting for human rights, constantly being surrounded by people trying to tear you down and still standing up straight takes a toll on the body. To me, seeing someone look worn out in a position like this is a sign that they actually genuinely care, they are personally invested for selfless reasons and are trying to do their best. Have a look at a picture of her when she first came in compared to now, it's hard being a decent person in a trash heap of filth. How do you think your body would hold up in comparison?

Maybe before attacking the commenter with absolutely no basis and coming across as an aggressive walut, actually really think about their comment and consider that, just maybe, they have a point?

How many days do you wake up looking perfect for a candid camera shot? The comment “damn she looks so worn out” can most certainly be an insult and I’d imagine if someone who meant well by saying that meaning she looks so dedicated to her work would interpret that.

That being said, can you say you’re a genuine supporter if you comment on her physical appearance? She’d probably tell you to F off about what she looks like and to think about the bigger picture, honestly.