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17670 Batteries?

Hey guys I was talking to lumafist yesterday and he suggested I get some 17670 batteries for my SureFire G2 LED. Im getting a Malkoff M60 so I want some rechargeables.
My question does just one of these go in the surefire to make it work or does it take two, just like the cr123's?
Also will these fit in my G2 and is the best battery I can get to fit in this body or is there another one that would last longer?
Thanks for your help,
Chet

Re: 17670 Batteries?

The M60 runs great on a single 18650 or 17670. Nicely, it will drop out of regulation as it drops in voltage and give a nice looong runtime at diminishing brightness... no sudden power cuts like you get with two 16340's.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

Alright so I have two different opinions here.
I dont know anything about this so please excuse my ignorance. But wouldnt marduke be correct in getting a longer runtime with two batteries instead of one?

Re: 17670 Batteries?

Originally Posted by realitycheck

Alright so I have two different opinions here.
I dont know anything about this so please excuse my ignorance. But wouldnt marduke be correct in getting a longer runtime with two batteries instead of one?

It depends on the module. The M60 on 1x17670 will fall out of regulation quicker, and have a long period of reducing brightness as the battery runs down.

On 2xRCR123 (16340's), the M60 will run longer in regulation, but have little or no period of reduced brightness.

If you run the M30 on 1x17670, it will better utilize the 1x17670 cell by running in regulation longer.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

And regulation is the time it stays in its maximum lumen output correct?
Once it goes below the voltage dictated by the module it goes into direct drive and starts slowly diminishing?
If I go with 16340's is that when you have a chance of the light all of a sudden just cutting off and you really have no warning of when it might do it?

Re: 17670 Batteries?

With 16340's you'll get around 45 minutes of full power runtime. With lithium ion batteries, running them below 3v can start to damage the cells, leading to reduced runtime and recharges. Using protected cells the protection circuit will suddenly cut the light off when they reach around 2.5v per cell. The M60 will still be at full power right before that cut, so you'll be left in the dark suddenly, this happens to all flashlights that are running in full regulation on a rechargable. 1 17670 will run close to or at full power for an unspecified amount of time, some have estimated around 30-40 minutes, then slowly dim over a few hours as the module goes to direct drive (below 3.8v), by the time the protection circuit kicks in the light will have dimmed to less than 1/10 it's normal output.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

To add to Yoda4561's post,

M60 with a single AW _protected_ 17500 (it's the closest thing I had to the 17670, the behavior of which I am most interested in with regards to unregulated behavior in an M60):~200 to ~140 lumens for hour one.~140 to ~80 lumens for hour two.~80 lumens to ~20 lumens for hour three.
(lumen figures are unfortunately guestimates, based on my other various configurations in my integrating bathroom)After 4 hours, down to maybe 10 lumens and still the protection circuit hasn't triggered, so I got bored & turned off the light.

Compare this to the _M30_ on a 17500, with a calculated runtime of 60 minutes @ 240 lumens (calculating off of a tested runtime of 1:20 min with a 17670).

Re: 17670 Batteries?

So basically it comes out to if you would rather have full light for a longer time and then poof your in the dark.
Or not ever make full lumens and have a battery that would drain to almost no lumens before ever going out.
Man thats a hard decision?
Any other options for the m60 and G2 combo?

Re: 17670 Batteries?

Originally Posted by realitycheck

Man thats a hard decision?

I completely agree with you, such a small configuration change creating two completely different behaviors.
Solution: Get both. If you really get into the Malkoff drop-ins you'll have a ball trying them in different configurations you put together. In the very unlikely event that you won't want to keep both, sell the config you don't want for 95% of your purchase price on the Marketplace.

Either configuration stomps the stuffing out of a 2xRCR123 setup due to having considerably more watt-hours of stored energy in the larger single-cell. Plus purchasing a pair of the long cells gives you one backup, while you'd have to purchase four RCR123's and juggle them, possibly getting them mixed up in the dark when your protection circuit triggers.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

You will get the most output (& heat) from the M30 (theoretically more heat than even a full-driven M60 - more current flow due to the lower voltage _plus_ heat coming from the boost circuit), but your host (plastic body / aluminum bezel) is marginal for getting that heat out. It should be ok from what I've read on CPF, but it is pushing it. I can't say more specifically, no real experience with this configuration - the other configurations I've tried, to avoid any potential heat issue on this. YMMV.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

Originally Posted by realitycheck

Hey guys I was talking to lumafist yesterday and he suggested I get some 17670 batteries for my SureFire G2 LED. Im getting a Malkoff M60 so I want some rechargeables.
My question does just one of these go in the surefire to make it work or does it take two, just like the cr123's?
Also will these fit in my G2 and is the best battery I can get to fit in this body or is there another one that would last longer?
Thanks for your help,
Chet

Go with the Malkoff M30 + SureFire 6P + AW 17670.

Do not use the G2 or any other host made of Polymer/plastic with high-powered LED modules.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

Just did a quick output test (bathroom ceiling bounce) between the M60 and the M30 driven in a 6P host by a fresh off the charger AW protected 18650. Measured in EV, at 29" distance from ceiling, converted to Lux. With the relatively short 29" measurement distance, a measurement difference of .1 EV is totally insignificant.

To the eye the difference in output is hardly if even noticible. To a light meter, there is a measureable difference, however.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

Here are my test results with an AW protected 16340, hot-off-the-charger. Measured in EV, at 29" distance from bathroom ceiling, converted to Lux. With the relatively short 29" measurement distance, a measurement difference of .1 EV is totally insignificant.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

A "3.7v" nominal Li-Ion is 4.2v right off the charger. Mine spend most of their lives between 4.2v - 3.8v, in my usage pattern. You get a longer useful life from Li-Ions if you top them off regularly rather than run them down to cut-off or (even worse) dead, especially on a regular basis.

If a long runtime is necessary, by all means, drive the M60 with a single 18650 and run it down until it dims significantly or is shut down by the PC. But no need nor benefit from doing that as a matter of course.

That's the nice thing with the M60... it's really versatile! You can drive it with 1 to 3 primaries, 2 rechargeables, or a single rechargeable (16340, 17500, 18500, 17670, 18650) and get good output from all. And you can get especially long runtimes with a single 18650. With the M30, you get an imperceptibly brighter output when compared to the M60 in single cell mode, but for a much shorter runtime. And you lose the ability to use more than a single cell. Both the M60 and the M30 are great lamp modules, but the M60 gives you a lot more options.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

Alright guys I have another problem here. Please tell me what im missing here. I'm looking at these two batteries right here. I have the 17670 at 1800mah, and I have the rcr123 at 900mah x2=1800mah. The 17670 is only 3.7 volts, but the rcr123 would be 6 volts, the 17670 protection is 2.75 volts and the rcr123 is 2.5 volts. Wouldn't the RCR123 hold the light in regulation for longer and also have a longer drop off time in direct drive??
Thats the way the numbers seem to me but im new so im sure im confused?
Link to two batteries,http://www.batteryjunction.com/protected-17670.htmlhttp://www.batteryjunction.com/rc390reliba.html

Re: 17670 Batteries?

Remember that Li-Ions are about 4.2v when fully charged.

Voltage is additive (3v cell + 3v cell in series = 6v) but capacity (I believe) is not additive in series, but perhaps in parallel? Someone correct me if I'm wrong here... battery science can get complicated very quickly when you consider voltage, current, capacity, forward voltage, chemistry, series, parallel, etc. (And I'm no expert by any means here.) (Of course, parallel is not applicable to this situation.)

Re: 17670 Batteries?

An RCR123 which claims to be 900 mAh is horribly inflated, it's probably ~600 or so, especially at the relatively high drain rates that we are asking of it. The best way to look at stored energy is watt-hours, and a single 17670 has something like ~50% more watt-hours than two rcr123's.

Re: 17670 Batteries?

hehehe, Kestral you guys have convinced me. I'm going to roll with the 17670 and the ultrafire charger.
Thanks so much for helping a newb out guys.

Are you sure you want the ultrafire charger? Pila IBC's are the way to go IMO, ~$50 but well worth the extra money. My two lumens.

edit: Earlier today I gave a quick scan to CPF/Marketplace - Batteries / electronics to check an idea. I saw NINE cheapo 3.7v chargers in various states of selling or being withdrawn on the first page alone. I don't even recall when I last saw a Pila IBC for sale, even though they are extremely popular on CPF. That should tell you something right there. :-) Why is everyone selling their cheapo 3.7v chargers, but nobody is selling their Pila IBC's? :-)

(FYI, I gather that there are better chargers than the Pila IBC, but the Pila is relatively inexpensive, a simple one to use, and shouldn't get you into trouble, from what I've read)

Re: 17670 Batteries?

Well I've heard good and bad now that im reading stuff.
I dont want to burn my house down over a few bucks thats for sure. I didnt know if the Pila IBC charged 17670's or not?

With various spacers (included and improvised) you can charge pretty much any 3.7v cell reliably with the Pila (except for the really tiny ones like 10180 or whatever).

Think about it this way: Any ____fire besides SureFire is sure to you give you a fire, eventually.(I'm only kidding here ..... for the most part. There's a thread around here somewhere where a guy lost half his garage in a charging incident, and that hasn't been the only one.)

Re: 17670 Batteries?

The most important thing to attend to for safe charging, with ANY charger, is make SURE you don't leave cells charging unattended. Don't put them on the charger if there's a chance you might forget about them or leave the house for any prolonged period of time. Be there to pull them off the charger... ANY charger, when the light indicates done. And is doesn't hurt to put the charger on a metal tray in the event of an, event! The Pila charger is well respected and a good choice. But many of us use the WF-139 with excellent results as well. Just remember the safety procedures and you'll be fine.