Mister Congressman, last time we left Afghanistan in chaos we got three airplanes into buildings and one into a field. It sucks. It sucks very hard. But, we must be sure that these folk who both attacked us (Al Qaeda) and those who sheltered them (Taliban) never be in any sort of position to have any bit of power.

I think that President Obama is doing a fine job on Afghanistan. I have no major complaints. Hell, I was awfully proud of him when he fired that General (who was commander of theatre operations in Afghanistan) who disrespected him in Rolling Stones. Obama needs to stay the course on this one. We cannot ever let these farkers get in any sort of position to commit major terrorist attacks on us again.

Confabulat:Was there a time our lifetimes when Afghanistan wasn't in chaos?

Not really. However, it is also worth noting that there has never been a time in recorded history in which it was conquered. Caesar couldn't do it. Napoleon couldn't do it. Genghis f*cking Khan couldn't do it. The Soviet Union at the height of their Cold War strength, when they were fighting no other war at the time, couldn't do it.

What, did he just wake up and realize that old men don't fight wars, it's the young men and women with kids and spouses that are left behind.

ox45tallboy:Confabulat: Was there a time our lifetimes when Afghanistan wasn't in chaos?

Not really. However, it is also worth noting that there has never been a time in recorded history in which it was conquered. Caesar couldn't do it. Napoleon couldn't do it. Genghis f*cking Khan couldn't do it. The Soviet Union at the height of their Cold War strength, when they were fighting no other war at the time, couldn't do it.

Why in the hell did we ever think we could?

something, something about being condemned to repeat it...

It's really kind of odd. I was thinking the other day that during school my best friend's dad was a die hard Nixon republican. He always talked about how every war we were ever involved in were started by democrats. He always cited FDR, Truman and Kennedy. He was also on disibility. My how things have changed since the 70's.

If anyone could, it was post-Clinton America. I mean, biggest economy, running a surplus, biggest military that has ever existed, anywhere. Don't get me wrong, evidence indicates that even that particular hammer couldn't crack that nut, but still, just because the mongols can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible and unconquerable.

"By the end of 1993, in Afghanistan itself there were no roads, no schools, just a destroyed country - and the United States was washing its hands of any responsibility. It was in this vacuum that the Taliban and Osama bin Laden would emerge as the dominant players. It is ironic that a man who had almost nothing to do with the victory over the Red Army, Osama bin Laden, would come to personify the power of the jihad."

- George Crile Charlie Wilson's War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History

ox45tallboy:Confabulat: Was there a time our lifetimes when Afghanistan wasn't in chaos?

Not really. However, it is also worth noting that there has never been a time in recorded history in which it was conquered. Caesar couldn't do it. Napoleon couldn't do it. Genghis f*cking Khan couldn't do it. The Soviet Union at the height of their Cold War strength, when they were fighting no other war at the time, couldn't do it.

Why in the hell did we ever think we could?

It's been conquered plenty of times, you do realize that the current nation has only been around for a decade and the previous nation had only been there for, what, half a century?

This bit of "common wisdom" is simply incorrect. It's like saying the United States has never been conquered. Sure, technically correct in the loosest, grade-school-history sense, but the first nations and the former confederate states might have some heavy footnoting to add to that for you if you wanted to talk policy-relevant history.

//Pakistan, for instance, used to be Afghani territory. It didn't end up a separate nation via peaceful protesting.

A lot of people supported the war in Afghanistan initially and still do to this day but in the wake of Bin Laden's transformation into crab poop and Al Qaeda running out of #2s due to the drone campaign a lot of people are now wondering what the point to staying around is at this point.

Well, all you have to do is hang around until a bronze age country with a strong religious backbone and access to terror-grade weaponry graduates up to the standard of living of the modern world and doesn't collapse into a total clusterfark due to the massive culture shock inherent of having an industrial revolution rammed down your throat. If you want an example of how this can go well, I think Australia manages an example of what makes it work (we just had to kill everyone here before we got started), and Congo is an example of what doesn't.

Good ol' Bill Young. I won't ever forget being at a private party with him a few months ago, and him saying in a speech addressing the entire gathering, "We need to kill those Iranian bastards!" Of course his much-younger wife followed that comment with a "Wooo-hooo!," and the entire room burst into applause.

I sort of forgot we weren't at war with Iran yet at that point. -_-

/CSB//That was also the first night I was served a giant tower of bacon, covered in sugar, as a 'fancy hors d'oeuvre'.///lots of gin that night to be able to deal with the increasingly stupid Republicans I had to mingle with that night..

quatchi:A lot of people supported the war in Afghanistan initially and still do to this day but in the wake of Bin Laden's transformation into crab poop and Al Qaeda running out of #2s due to the drone campaign a lot of people are now wondering what the point to staying around is at this point.

Staying there forever was never an option.

Even Bush was into scheduling withdrawal plans after a while. Actually, come to think of it, Bush seemed to realize he'd screwed a number of pooches in 2007 and started scrambling to try to fix shiat. Bailouts, troop withdrawal timetables, etc.

If anyone could, it was post-Clinton America. I mean, biggest economy, running a surplus, biggest military that has ever existed, anywhere. Don't get me wrong, evidence indicates that even that particular hammer couldn't crack that nut, but still, just because the mongols can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible and unconquerable.

(It's probably impossible and unconquerable.)

What is there to conquer? We can't force people to like and accept us. The only other thing left is fear, and when you have little left to lose, fear starts to lose any value as well. We can't bomb them back to the stone age, as they are not far from it as it stands. That is the problem with invading third world failed states. Short of genocide or some such horrific act, there is little you can do to 'win'.

This article makes me feel profoundly sad. I'm glad Representative Young advocates for wounded veterans. I'm glad he has the humanity and courage to be open to a change of heart and to be vocal about that change. I hope he can inspire some of his younger co-workers to action.

The impetus for his change of heart, however, is such a tragedy for the young man, his family, and Rep. Young. I would have preferred that Rep. Young come to his change of heart without suffering the kind of heartbreak and sorrow that must have struck him when he was notified of Matt Sittons' death.

wingnut396:TalenLee: ox45tallboy: Why in the hell did we ever think we could?

If anyone could, it was post-Clinton America. I mean, biggest economy, running a surplus, biggest military that has ever existed, anywhere. Don't get me wrong, evidence indicates that even that particular hammer couldn't crack that nut, but still, just because the mongols can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible and unconquerable.

(It's probably impossible and unconquerable.)

What is there to conquer? We can't force people to like and accept us. The only other thing left is fear, and when you have little left to lose, fear starts to lose any value as well. We can't bomb them back to the stone age, as they are not far from it as it stands. That is the problem with invading third world failed states. Short of genocide or some such horrific act, there is little you can do to 'win'.

I suppose it's not a popular view, but I thought 9-11 should have been treated as a criminal, rather than a war, act. I think we should have led an international investigation. We should never have gone to war in Afghanistan.

Lunaville:wingnut396: TalenLee: ox45tallboy: Why in the hell did we ever think we could?

If anyone could, it was post-Clinton America. I mean, biggest economy, running a surplus, biggest military that has ever existed, anywhere. Don't get me wrong, evidence indicates that even that particular hammer couldn't crack that nut, but still, just because the mongols can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible and unconquerable.

(It's probably impossible and unconquerable.)

What is there to conquer? We can't force people to like and accept us. The only other thing left is fear, and when you have little left to lose, fear starts to lose any value as well. We can't bomb them back to the stone age, as they are not far from it as it stands. That is the problem with invading third world failed states. Short of genocide or some such horrific act, there is little you can do to 'win'.

I suppose it's not a popular view, but I thought 9-11 should have been treated as a criminal, rather than a war, act. I think we should have led an international investigation. We should never have gone to war in Afghanistan.

Taliban sheltered al qaeda terrorists and refused all US requests for Osama and company. Since the Taliban were the dominate force in the country, they had to go. Osama was given free reign in Afghanistan by the Taliban. We had to remove them.

Put a gun in the hands of every chest-thumping, flag-waving chickenhawk. Put them on a plane. Send them to a hellhole outpost. Kick them in the ass. Shout, "PROTECT AMERICA!" And leave them there.

The war will end in 0.025 seconds.

I just saw the latest Marines commercials on NFL last weekend. Disturbing. I don't think they're aiming their commercials at potential recruits any longer. They're aiming them at pickup truck patriots. "Which way would you run?" Yeah let's see which way the beer-belly NASCAR set runs when there are actual bullets flying through the air and people being shredded all around them.

cman:Lunaville: wingnut396: TalenLee: ox45tallboy: Why in the hell did we ever think we could?

If anyone could, it was post-Clinton America. I mean, biggest economy, running a surplus, biggest military that has ever existed, anywhere. Don't get me wrong, evidence indicates that even that particular hammer couldn't crack that nut, but still, just because the mongols can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible and unconquerable.

(It's probably impossible and unconquerable.)

What is there to conquer? We can't force people to like and accept us. The only other thing left is fear, and when you have little left to lose, fear starts to lose any value as well. We can't bomb them back to the stone age, as they are not far from it as it stands. That is the problem with invading third world failed states. Short of genocide or some such horrific act, there is little you can do to 'win'.

I suppose it's not a popular view, but I thought 9-11 should have been treated as a criminal, rather than a war, act. I think we should have led an international investigation. We should never have gone to war in Afghanistan.

Taliban sheltered al qaeda terrorists and refused all US requests for Osama and company. Since the Taliban were the dominate force in the country, they had to go. Osama was given free reign in Afghanistan by the Taliban. We had to remove them.

Oh, and to preempt your "US showed no evidence to Taliban" response, remember, we didnt need any 9/11 evidence to ask for Osama's extradition. We already showed the Taliban plenty of evidence that he was responsible for the embassy bombings and attacks on US troops in Saudi Arabia. When 9/11 happened, we demanded that the Taliban hand him over so he could be sent to trial on those charges, where we would do an investigation to figure out his background on the attacks.

cman:Oh, and to preempt your "US showed no evidence to Taliban" response, remember, we didnt need any 9/11 evidence to ask for Osama's extradition. We already showed the Taliban plenty of evidence that he was responsible for the embassy bombings and attacks on US troops in Saudi Arabia. When 9/11 happened, we demanded that the Taliban hand him over so he could be sent to trial on those charges, where we would do an investigation to figure out his background on the attacks.

And they agreed to hand him and his cronies to Pakistan, where they would have been tried and executed. That wasn't good enough for us. We needed the blood on our hands.

The Jami Turman Fan Club:cman: Oh, and to preempt your "US showed no evidence to Taliban" response, remember, we didnt need any 9/11 evidence to ask for Osama's extradition. We already showed the Taliban plenty of evidence that he was responsible for the embassy bombings and attacks on US troops in Saudi Arabia. When 9/11 happened, we demanded that the Taliban hand him over so he could be sent to trial on those charges, where we would do an investigation to figure out his background on the attacks.

And they agreed to hand him and his cronies to Pakistan, where they would have been tried and executed. That wasn't good enough for us. We needed the blood on our hands.

The Taliban wanted him to be tried only by a Muslim nation. I dont know about you, but considering that Islamic law may find his actions justifiable and finds him not guilty is not something that we should risk.

Lunaville:This article makes me feel profoundly sad. I'm glad Representative Young advocates for wounded veterans. I'm glad he has the humanity and courage to be open to a change of heart and to be vocal about that change. I hope he can inspire some of his younger co-workers to action.

The impetus for his change of heart, however, is such a tragedy for the young man, his family, and Rep. Young. I would have preferred that Rep. Young come to his change of heart without suffering the kind of heartbreak and sorrow that must have struck him when he was notified of Matt Sittons' death.

That was kind of my reaction as well. I think it says something about human nature that it took a young man from Mr. Young's particular church to experience the war firsthand before Mr. Young gave it much critical thought. Mr. Young is supposed to represent all of us, but really he can only represent his own sentiments and the experiences of those he knows well and trusts. I think we would all do well to remember this next time we want to change the mind of a member of Congress.

Jim_Callahan:ox45tallboy: Confabulat: Was there a time our lifetimes when Afghanistan wasn't in chaos?

Not really. However, it is also worth noting that there has never been a time in recorded history in which it was conquered. Caesar couldn't do it. Napoleon couldn't do it. Genghis f*cking Khan couldn't do it. The Soviet Union at the height of their Cold War strength, when they were fighting no other war at the time, couldn't do it.

Why in the hell did we ever think we could?

It's been conquered plenty of times, you do realize that the current nation has only been around for a decade and the previous nation had only been there for, what, half a century?

wingnut396:TalenLee: ox45tallboy: Why in the hell did we ever think we could?

If anyone could, it was post-Clinton America. I mean, biggest economy, running a surplus, biggest military that has ever existed, anywhere. Don't get me wrong, evidence indicates that even that particular hammer couldn't crack that nut, but still, just because the mongols can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible and unconquerable.

(It's probably impossible and unconquerable.)

What is there to conquer? We can't force people to like and accept us. The only other thing left is fear, and when you have little left to lose, fear starts to lose any value as well. We can't bomb them back to the stone age, as they are not far from it as it stands. That is the problem with invading third world failed states. Short of genocide or some such horrific act, there is little you can do to 'win'.

It's a natural fortress, carved by nature and man over thousands of years. It's a country of mostly mountains and caves, and home of the longest running instance of "King of the Mountain" in recorded history.

ox45tallboy:Confabulat: Was there a time our lifetimes when Afghanistan wasn't in chaos?

Not really. However, it is also worth noting that there has never been a time in recorded history in which it was conquered. Caesar couldn't do it. Napoleon couldn't do it. Genghis f*cking Khan couldn't do it. The Soviet Union at the height of their Cold War strength, when they were fighting no other war at the time, couldn't do it.

Why in the hell did we ever think we could?

you sure you have your history correct? Alexander of Maccedoinia invaded the region, but really just said, "OK you guys who I conquered, I am now boss and you just go about your business," Saying Caesar you probably mean Julious or Agustus, but in truth none of the Caesars got any farther than what is now Iraq. Napoleon? None of the Napoleons sent armies into that area, Perhaps you mean the British Raj? Or the Arab armies followers the 4 Patriarchs?

Maybe Chinkga Khan or the Golden Hoard? (hored, hord?) The Arab armies brought Sunni Islam to the region and it has been that way since then.

Well, all you have to do is hang around until a bronze age country with a strong religious backbone and access to terror-grade weaponry graduates up to the standard of living of the modern world and doesn't collapse into a total clusterfark due to the massive culture shock inherent of having an industrial revolution rammed down your throat. If you want an example of how this can go well, I think Australia manages an example of what makes it work (we just had to kill everyone here before we got started), and Congo is an example of what doesn't.