NOW’s Jonathan Goldsbie squares off with the Post’s Chris Selley and Matt Gurney on what steps are necessary to keep our politics clean.

Goldsbie: Professional lobbying, in its barest sense, involves the conversion of wealth into political influence. The entities with the greatest means are able to have the most dedicated and focused advocates working for their interests in the governmental sphere. In a way, it’s both antithetical to basic democratic principles and an inevitable consequence of a capitalist system. And yet because prohibiting certain voices from expressing themselves would itself be antidemocratic, the question always returns to what level of regulation would provide the proper combination of transparency, efficacy, and accountability. This week, City Hall Lobbyist Registrar Linda Gehrke will be presenting Mayor Rob Ford’s Executive Committee with a recommendation that permitted lobbying activity be restricted to normal business hours (8-6, Mondays-Fridays). Unsurprisingly, Ford himself doesn’t quite agree with this, telling the Sun that lobbyists should be free to communicate with him at “functions” he attends as well as in the “grocery store.” Keeping in mind that Ford has a rather peculiar understanding of accountability mechanisms to begin with (lobbying at most functions is already prohibited), how do you think you’d approach the issue if you were an elected official?

Selley: I think the extra regulations being proposed are mostly fool’s errands. Regulations and reporting mechanisms can provide a welcome reminder to honest politicians if they’re listening to special interests more than their constituents, say — and I’m 100% for citizens having as much information about their elected officials’ on-the-job activities as is reasonably possible to furnish — but it’s not a slippery slope from having one too many pints with a lobbyist to taking a big wad of cash from one in a parking lot in exchange for a key vote. You’re either fundamentally honest or you aren’t, and anyone inclined to sink to that level of corruption would likely find a way around any measures of the nature being proposed. (Lobbyist: “Can we meet at 6:30 on Thursday to discuss our nefarious deal?” Councillor Gekko: “Oh my goodness, no!”) I think strenuous auditing and oversight measures, and the beady eyes of other conscientious councillors and journalists, are the best defence against such things getting out of control, and indeed that’s one of the joys of a legislature with no political parties.

Gurney: How would I approach the issue? Not by making some people verboten once the clock strikes six. It seems to me that controlling when lobbyists may meet with elected officials seems to be taking a fairly narrow view of the problem (I’m not even sure I’d call it a problem, though I’d agree with Jonathan’s general point that it’s an issue that requires careful balancing of competing democratic rights). Tracking when lobbyists meet with public officials and publishing the data publicly would be fine with me — with reasonable accommodation for scenarios when the meeting is inadvertent or completely unrelated to an elected leader’s civic duties. But I don’t think there’s anything we can do that will ever fully solve the problem. I’m OK with ethical guidelines rigorously enforced, but telling our leaders — who are still citizens — who they can meet with, and when, strikes me as going too far to address an issue that will always remain.

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Goldsbie: Ethical issues are seldom black and white, and so I don’t think it’s fair to say that a given politician is either fundamentally honest or not. At the last Council meeting, for example, David Shiner and Mike Del Grande both expressed genuine befuddlement at the suggestion that it’s inappropriate for councillors to accept event tickets purchased for them by lobbyists. (Lobbying firms often buy whole tables at galas and luncheons, and invite councillors to fill one or two of the seats.) While I’m certainly not a fan of Shiner or Del Grande, I have no reason to believe that either of them is corrupt. But I think you can see why their approach to councillor-lobbyist relations is problematic. As for Matt’s suggestion of tracking lobbying activity and publishing that information, well, a Lobbyist Registry already exists for the City of Toronto. And while it’s an excellent resource, it’s also studded with loopholes; e.g., a meeting doesn’t have to be registered if both the lobbyist and the person being lobbied claim that no actual lobbying activity took place between them.

Selley: That’s my point. Corruption is far less meaningfully defined by statute than it is by common sense. I don’t want councillors taking handouts from lobbyists, but ultimately what matters is the extent to which their interactions with lobbyists influence their decision making. The truly corrupt will likely find a way to circumvent any regulations. And I think at the level of hockey tickets or gala dinners, politicians are more usefully judged in the court of public opinion. Rules are almost a cop out.

Gurney: And we overlook the fact that there might sometimes be no harm in having an elected official sitting at a gala table paid for by a lobbyist. I agree with Chris that when things get out of control, if the public knows, they’ll respond appropriately. I think at a certain point we have to trust our elected officials. It’s OK to insist on rules and guidelines, absolutely. But getting too micro in the regulations — what hours of the day it’s OK to meet, what hours are off-limits — strikes me as more likely to make a shady politico even more sneaky, rather than take an honest one and turn them into an even better embodiment of transparent democracy.

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