That isn't true. While atheists, muslims, witches, jews, etc. may be wrongly persecuted in many areas, and christians, jainists, hindus, buddhists, etc wrongly persecuted in many others, I think the debate needs to be one where all peoples take a hard look at their beliefs, recognize why they believe what they do, and learn why it is wise practice not to judge the beliefs of others who cause no harm to society - whether it is in the workplace, the laws that society makes, or just the ability to stand in another's shoes. I am sure you've questioned your own religion over the years, and compared it to the many "truths" that are out there.

I have no quarrel with your belief in god if it doesn't cause you to view me as evil, or less than you. As an agnostic atheist, I am not as certain of truth as you seem to be. I wish extreme islam was also not so certain. I worry about everyone because of how sure people with opposing views seem to be that they are right, and how little they question their views.

2. The founders of the United States were deists, not Christians, so why this insistence on the need for Christianity when there is not evidence the religion makes a person any more likely or not to do the right thing?

Actually, some were Deists while others were protestant Christians. However, if you look up each and every Deist Founding Father, where it says "religion" (like at wiki) it doesn't say "Deism" but a particular Christian sect they were a member of at one point in their lives.

Wayne,

You throw around the word "theory" as if it is actually a theory. They are not. They are opinions, and not very well grounded opinions. Start using the correct word.

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil.

I grew up in the church of the brethren. It is one of the historic peace churches, along with mennonites and quakers. When a member of the brethren congregation must make a court statement, that person will refuse to take the "I swear to tell the whole truth....." oath. That person, under US law, is permitted to say," I affirm I am telling the truth...." which means to members of the brethren church - why would I NOW have to make an oath to change what I have already been doing, and what we all must always do. A small matter, perhaps, but one that men of good conscience have made available to men of good conscience.

edit - hmmm, just looked it up. Apparently, the brethren, mennonite, and quaker churches may well be on their way along the road to hell, since we atheists do the same thing.

It was a well established principal in, and reinforced in the Northwest Ordinance that anyone that would hold office in government, or any new territories petitioning for statehood should swear to a belief in God, and make that belief a part of the states Constitution.Without a belief in future rewards and punishments, a person could not be trusted, because men are not angels, and the natural tendency to corruption in man was well established.

In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil. We distrust men in their sinful state, particularly highly intelligent men. The greatest country in the history of the planet has the longest lasting constitution in existence because of these bedrock principles.

But given that men are not angels, as you say, and given that we are all supposedly prone to giving in to our sinful natures (otherwise there would be no need for a savior), why is it that someone who professes faith should be any more trustworthy than an atheist?

Now, I'm sure that the majority of Christians out there are trustworthy, honorable people, but the thing is that you could say exactly the same thing about your average atheist. And, as in any population, you will find liars, cheaters, swindlers, etc on both sides of the fence.

If it was in someone's nature to lie, wouldn't it make sense that it would be just as easy for them to profess faith, or swear to God that they were telling the truth if they thought they could pull the wool over someone's eyes more easily that way?

Why would someone's simply professing to be a Christian make them automatically more trustworthy than an atheist? At least you can be pretty darn sure that someone professing atheism is at least telling the truth on that count.

In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil.

I grew up in the church of the brethren. It is one of the historic peace churches, along with Mennonites and Quakers. When a member of the brethren congregation must make a court statement, that person will refuse to take the "I swear to tell the whole truth....." oath. That person, under US law, is permitted to say," I affirm I am telling the truth...." which means to members of the brethren church - why would I NOW have to make an oath to change what I have already been doing, and what we all must always do. A small matter, perhaps, but one that men of good conscience have made available to men of good conscience.

edit - hmmm, just looked it up. Apparently, the brethren, Mennonite, and Quaker churches may well be on their way along the road to hell, since we atheists do the same thing.

Thanks for that. That is a very good illustration of how varied Christian sects were that inspired the Founders to allow freedom of Christian expression, which they quite innocently called freedom of religion. Religions other than Christianity were out of the question. They certainly did not intend for Muslims to participate in government, only Christians. However they did make an exception for Jews and provided them a separate oath having them swear to a belief in the afterlife with it's rewards and punishments. Apparently some Jews (Sadducees) didn't believe in afterlife and so they could be rejected from serving. Muslims couldn't be trusted and I will posit one example of why. It seems that somewhere in Mohammed's teachings Mohammedan's are allowed to lie to infidels. That's a big No Go. I need not expound further on that issue. That's why it was not called religion, but false religion. It would have been a lot easier for us now had they just said there is no freedom of false religion, and I'm not sure they didn't, but now the whole system is corrupted and committing suicide from equating true and false.

This stuff is not only interesting history, it is critical to stable policy. America has lost it. More about that calamity when we get to my Obama is America's Idi Amin Prem.. Uhh..Thing... I'm having to back away from the word premonition because it has the feel of what I have experienced without having the precise meaning of it. Some cogent commenter brought it to my attention and I'm glad he/she did. If anyone has a one word description of what to call my experience please tell me what it is. Since it has happened a number of time to me, maybe I'll need to coin a term.

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The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

So Wayne...when you have one of these "spells" are you awake, dreaming, day dreaming, asleep, do you hear something or see something or both...do they/he/she/it tell you about things or to do things...are you tired afterwards...have you been on meds lately and maybe off them...for how long have you had these "spells"...do you feel chosen..special..cursed...inquiring minds want to know.

It was a well established principal in, and reinforced in the Northwest Ordinance that anyone that would hold office in government, or any new territories petitioning for statehood should swear to a belief in God, and make that belief a part of the states Constitution.Without a belief in future rewards and punishments, a person could not be trusted, because men are not angels, and the natural tendency to corruption in man was well established.

In order to have some assurance that a person answers to a higher law than their own, (which would render no meaning to swearing to tell the truth) these ordinances are in place to protect society as much as possible from evil. We distrust men in their sinful state, particularly highly intelligent men. The greatest country in the history of the planet has the longest lasting constitution in existence because of these bedrock principles. [/quote]

But given that men are not angels, as you say, and given that we are all supposedly prone to giving in to our sinful natures (otherwise there would be no need for a savior), why is it that someone who professes faith should be any more trustworthy than an atheist?

Now, I'm sure that the majority of Christians out there are trustworthy, honorable people, but the thing is that you could say exactly the same thing about your average atheist. And, as in any population, you will find liars, cheaters, swindlers, etc on both sides of the fence.

If it was in someones nature to lie, wouldn't it make sense that it would be just as easy for them to profess faith, or swear to God that they were telling the truth if they thought they could pull the wool over someones eyes more easily that way?

Why would someones simply professing to be a Christian make them automatically more trustworthy than an atheist? At least you can be pretty darn sure that someone professing atheism is at least telling the truth on that count.[/quote]

All men will be punished for their sins in the after life, For you to serve in government, you have to swear that you believe in God's Judgement. Atheists that never tell lies can't serve because as honest as they might be in reality (which is a big hypothetical) in God we trust, in man we don't. In God's final Judgement we trust, In men's judgement we don't.

I have to believe you know what I'm talking about here. Swearing on a Bible and all that. Is that not so academic that I need to illustrate it?

We get into a troubling area when talking about a false religion outlawing false religion. The founders knew what they were doing, and as confused as men's means of honoring and worshipping the religion of Christ may have seemed, they knew that the basic tenants of the bible and the Ten commandments were clear enough in all Christian sects to entrust the offices of government to them. Not so, non Judeo christian (false) religions.

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

So Wayne...when you have one of these "spells" are you awake, dreaming, day dreaming, asleep, do you hear something or see something or both...do they/he/she/it tell you about things or to do things...are you tired afterwards...have you been on meds lately and maybe off them...for how long have you had these "spells"...do you feel chosen..special..cursed...inquiring minds want to know.

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

So Wayne...when you have one of these "spells" are you awake, dreaming, day dreaming, asleep, do you hear something or see something or both...do they/he/she/it tell you about things or to do things...are you tired afterwards...have you been on meds lately and maybe off them...for how long have you had these "spells"...do you feel chosen..special..cursed...inquiring minds want to know.

That isn't true. While atheists, Muslims, witches, Jews, etc. may be wrongly persecuted in many areas, and Christians, jainists, Hindus, Buddhists, etc wrongly persecuted in many others, I think the debate needs to be one where all peoples take a hard look at their beliefs, recognize why they believe what they do, and learn why it is wise practice not to judge the beliefs of others who cause no harm to society - whether it is in the workplace, the laws that society makes, or just the ability to stand in anther's shoes. I am sure you've questioned your own religion over the years, and compared it to the many "truths" that are out there.

I have no quarrel with your belief in god if it doesn't cause you to view me as evil, or less than you. As an agnostic atheist, I am not as certain of truth as you seem to be. I wish extreme Islam was also not so certain. I worry about everyone because of how sure people with opposing views seem to be that they are right, and how little they question their views.

May I rec comend a simple childlike devotion to the life, teachings and Spirit that can be found in Jesus Christ. He called himself the truth. Men make it confusing, and I've been disappointed in how Christianity is presented and deployed here and there but as I think it was Billy Graham who said when asked what the most profound truth was that he held to, he said: Jesus Loves Me This I know, For the Bible tells me so. That's where all true believers start. That is the only true religion. That is the religion of the Founding fathers and of the most prosperous nation... until 1962.

You are right to be fearful of the certainty of extreme Islam. They have their role in the scheme of things just like the Assyrians had their terrorist role. When Israel was disobedient to God, God had another people prepared as terrorists to punish them. They couldn't have harmed Israel had He not allowed it. America lost it's protection on 911 (how appropriate is that number?) and the extreme islamists aren't finished with us yet, they're not finished because regardless of 9/11 we're still on the happy path to gay marriage and basically outlawing God's morality. Hello!

The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it. George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true. It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

Wayne, we would rather hear the answers to some of our questions than your preaching. We're not the choir, you know. There are a whole lot of deaf ears here if that is all you have to say.

You are ignoring questions that have been asked of you. Asked point blank. Asked repeatedly. You choose to only discuss the relatively safe or to preach or to push your blog links. We are not having a discussion as long as you continue to hide from out curiosity and our inquiries and our criticisms.

You can wear out a soap box pretty quick if all you do is stand on it and shuffle your feet. Come on, jump in with your clothes on and start responding to us when we ask about your claims, when we protest the reliability or functionality or divineness of your claims. If you've really got god behind you, nothing but good can come from it. If there is no god, its about time you found out about it.

Give us a go. Talk to us, not at us. Respond to the controversial, not the little side conversations that are of minimal interest.

Case in point. I asked you earlier why you didn't take into consideration that if had been able to go down the road at 90 mph (because your headlights were working), that you would have been past the point where the cows got in the road before they got there. I live in cattle country. Cows cross the road, but they don't just stand there. They don't graze on center lines and lick off the rubber. They cross the road. They had plenty of time to get there because you were going slower.

I once was driving down the highway at 55 at night and drove between two big black cows crossing the road without seeing them until it was too late (added for clarification: I just kept driving because I missed them All was well). I was an atheist. Was that god protecting me, or merely one of the possible outcomes in that situation?

Screwtape and others have asked questions as well. We know your opinions now. We know your stance on premonitions. We even know your political positions since we found your blog. And we're curious about lilian. But that can wait.

I repeat. Talk to us. Not at us. Right now you're making a terrible impression on most, if not all, of us. Has anyone trying to convince you ever done so by being oblivious to your ideas, your thoughts, your opinions?

I didn't think so. Come on guy. Make this a conversation.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 07:54:57 PM by ParkingPlaces »

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

But given that men are not angels, as you say, and given that we are all supposedly prone to giving in to our sinful natures (otherwise there would be no need for a savior), why is it that someone who professes faith should be any more trustworthy than an atheist?

Now, I'm sure that the majority of Christians out there are trustworthy, honorable people, but the thing is that you could say exactly the same thing about your average atheist. And, as in any population, you will find liars, cheaters, swindlers, etc on both sides of the

If it was in someones nature to lie, wouldn't it make sense that it would be just as easy for them to profess faith, or swear to God that they were telling the truth if they thought they could pull the wool over someones eyes more easily that way?

Why would someones simply professing to be a Christian make them automatically more trustworthy than an atheist? At least you can be pretty darn sure that someone professing atheism is at least telling the truth on that count

You responded:

Quote

All men will be punished for their sins in the after life, For you to serve in government, you have to swear that you believe in God's Judgement. Atheists that never tell lies can't serve because as honest as they might be in reality (which is a big hypothetical) in God we trust, in man we don't. In God's final Judgement we trust, In men's judgement we don't.

I have to believe you know what I'm talking about here. Swearing on a Bible and all that. Is that not so academic that I need to illustrate it?

Now, never mind that your quoting was so messed up here that I could barely find your response, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

What does the afterlife have to do with whether someone is honest in THIS life? There are plenty of Christians who fail to live up to standards. However, doesn't Christian doctrine say they will be forgiven? How is believing in god's judgement a guarantee that someone will live a blameless life? The rest of your sentence here is pretty incoherent.

And, by the way, I had asked a couple of pages back, but received no response...You seem to be so obsessive about living a godly life and not allowing Satan to influence you, etc...The story about the Batman movie and your daughter shows that as a father you were very careful about what she was exposed to, yet despite (or maybe as a response to) all your boundaries, it seems that she spent some time estranged from you and addicted to drugs or alcohol. You also refer to "one of my ex wives", which leads to the assumption that your current wife is at least your third?

How is this life history reflective of all the blessings you should receive as a devout Christian?

Man, it is really hard to believe that some of us were deluded, like Wayne is now, at one time. His delusion is very deep. Do you like how he said Jesus loves us and how strong that is in realizing true belief/religion but he had to work in the gay marriage thing from the old Testiment. JUst being a good person is not enough. We always have to put down another group to make us "true" Christians.

Question: This morning I was chopping firewood, and making some kindling. I missed the wood and hit my hand with the ax blade, which was no biggie because I wasn't hitting hard and I was wearing gloves, but it slid my hand down the log and a sliver poked through my gloves and stuck in my finger. I was listening to "Lay Lady, Lay" on my iPod at the time.

I can't help you with your dilemma, sorry. Not everything is a premonition.

Very true. That is why Nogods asked the following question in her post, which you decided NOT to address:

So the next time a guy beats his girlfriend to death after sex with a 2x4 (or a hatchet) , and his girlfriend happens to be a surgical assistant who wears gloves at work, am I to take my experience as a premonition? In other words, how do you differentiate very loosely tied events that have nothing to do with premonition with ones that you think do qualify as premonition?

I've bolded the pertinent part of the question. How DOES one determine if an event is a premonition (or warning) or not?

I'm doing a bit of clean up now that I'm back at my computer. I can't answer your question. I don't understand the glove or the two by four.

I could understand a question that relates directly to how my connections do or don't connect if you want to take the time to ask me that. But before you take any more time, ask yourself if you remember reading from my story the significance of my leaky gas pump on my truck. If you don't know what I'm talking about then you don't understand my story any better than I understand the 2x4 and the glove, and we probably don't really have anything to say to each other. I say this because one of the most prolific of inquiries was from screwtape that late in the discussion admitted that he hadn't even read my story because he couldn't open the link. That is revealing. No wonder I was like a deer in the headlight to all his questions.

So, for all of you who want to quiz me about premonitions, if you aren't able to open the PDF, or are unwilling to read it in its entirety, please don't waste your time asking me about premonitions because a funny thing happened, we discovered that what I wrote about doesn't technically qualify as a premonition. It's just the best word I could think of. For those who have and are still curious, I've got a lot of them.

So if you don't know what the trucks gas pump has to do with anything, that's perfectly fine... move on to another discussion.

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The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

One of the many reasons I left religion: having to be prejudiced against others. And, for some religions it doesn't stop at skin color, sexual orientation, or any of those things.

My family church:

1. People who wear black are evil.2. Boys or men who part their hair in the middle will turn into homosexuals.[1]3. Boys or men who grow their hair long will turn into homosexuals.[2]4. Beards are a big no-no. Moustaches are fine.[3]5. Supporting women's rights is tantamount to spitting at god.[4]6. Supporting anything not sanctioned by the church.[5]7. Those who do not attend church and give money to it are sinful people.8. Listening to godless music (anything not approved by the church) is devil worshipping.9. Prevocative dancing is sinful.

There's perhaps more but I don't remember it all. Church is where I learned to sleep with my eyes open.[6]

So, for all of you who want to quiz me about premonitions, if you aren't able to open the PDF, or are unwilling to read it in its entirety, please don't waste your time asking me about premonitions because a funny thing happened, we discovered that what I wrote about doesn't technically qualify as a premonition. It's just the best word I could think of. For those who have and are still curious, I've got a lot of them.

Fair enough. But those of us who have been able to open the links, those of us who have read what you wrote, have asked questions, and you have ignored them. You treat your premonitions as a given and seem to want only to repeat them rather than discussing the possibility that other, more rational explanations might exist. If you want only to talk to those who will be impressed, you need to see if there is a site called whyiseverybodyignoringmyastonishinglyaccuratepremonitions.com rather than here. They might be a bit more welcoming of your claims.

We're atheists. We inherently disagree with your religious stance. Toss in the claim of premonitions and we're really on opposite sides of the fence.

If you are wanting us to read your posts here, you might look into saying something. That makes the experience so much more pleasant.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

May I rec comend a simple childlike devotion to the life, teachings and Spirit that can be found in Jesus Christ. He called himself the truth. Men make it confusing, and I've been disappointed in how Christianity is presented and deployed here and there but as I think it was Billy Graham who said when asked what the most profound truth was that he held to, he said: Jesus Loves Me This I know, For the Bible tells me so. That's where all true believers start. That is the only true religion. That is the religion of the Founding fathers and of the most prosperous nation... until 1962.

Sorry, but the Bible was written by humans and has been dramatically changed by other humans. Any divine message in it, if it ever existed, has long since been wiped away. By humans. Did you know that during the initial centuries of Christianity, until the Council of Nicea, there were at least four major competing views of Jesus[1]? Adherents of each believed fervently in their own view and felt the others were hopelessly wrong, to say the least. The fact that three of them were squelched so thoroughly that modern Christians have never even heard of them is a pretty dead giveaway that Christianity doesn't have some monopoly on Truth.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

You are right to be fearful of the certainty of extreme Islam. They have their role in the scheme of things just like the Assyrians had their terrorist role. When Israel was disobedient to God, God had another people prepared as terrorists to punish them. They couldn't have harmed Israel had He not allowed it. America lost it's protection on 911 (how appropriate is that number?) and the extreme islamists aren't finished with us yet, they're not finished because regardless of 9/11 we're still on the happy path to gay marriage and basically outlawing God's morality. Hello!

You're partially right, but the fact of the matter is that anyone who is convinced of their own certitude is extremely dangerous. Whether it's fundamentalist Muslims who want to destroy America, or fundamentalist Christians who want to destroy any idea of America that doesn't match what they think it should be, or fundamentalist anything else, any of them are going to be problems for everyone else. Yes, that means you're part of the problem, Wayne, with your own certitude. I find it to be pretty sad that you would declare that America is being 'punished' by God, and will continue to be punished, because of something like gay marriage.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it. George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true. It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.

No, the Founding Fathers did not insist on Christianity or any other religion as a foundation for governance. Since you have apparently not read the Constitution, you may not be aware that they outlawed religious tests or other such qualifications for holding office. That means that they forbade things like a state church, like any religion being able to establish dominance over this country, and so on. If they had intended Christianity to be the foundation of governance, they would not have taken those steps.

Besides the one you actually know, there was the view of Jesus as a human who was never divine in the first place, the view of Jesus as a human who became God's son after the fact, and the view of Jesus as entirely divine and who never was human in the first place.

Case in point. I asked you earlier why you didn't take into consideration that if had been able to go down the road at 90 mph (because your headlights were working), that you would have been past the point where the cows got in the road before they got there. I live in cattle country. Cows cross the road, but they don't just stand there. They don't graze on center lines and lick off the rubber. They cross the road. They had plenty of time to get there because you were going slower.

Something (god, and angel) told me to stop. If I hadn't, something would have died. I think that's interesting, I'm sorry you don't. But that's Ok. I guess you had to be there. Ford liked it. Anything else?

« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 09:34:37 PM by WayneHarropson »

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The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

Sadly, we get very few believers ganging up on us. The number in the billions but their organizational skills are at times wanting. And it appears that they seldom agree with each other enough to forum a viable frontal assault on us. So we are usually stuck arguing with one at a time, who has to simultaneously hold off our arguments and conjure up excuses, which is sort of like patting your head while rubbing your belly at the same time, I guess.

The problem with most believers is that they have voluntarily dumbed down their version of the universe to one that they think a) is absolutely right and b)that explains absolutely everything. Well, maybe not absolutely, but enough to justify damning, or in some cases, killing, others. As thought processes go, the whole thing sucks. It is pretty much proof that we haven't evolved enough yet.

Generally speaking, believers feel that the phrase "I don't know" reflects ignorance, not knowledge. And they think that their view of things, obviously sanctified by the god, explains everything. A good analogy would be to say that they think that a person is supposed to step in dog poop.

So we work to enlighten each one. We succeed about once a year. The rest go by the wayside, rationalizing the end of the conversation with us in a way consistent with their ignorance, taking the time only to label us as the losers and themselves as the winners.

But we have fun anyway. Sometimes it is even exciting. So stick around gracarruth, and enjoy.

The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it. George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true. It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen, and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Keep in mind, that treaty was made within the lifetime of many, if not all of the founding fathers. If they wanted to object to the text, they could've done so. Yet, they didn't (the treaty--with the above text--was ratified unanimously by the senate).

Also, article six, paragraph 3 of the constitution states:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

If the founding fathers wanted to make sure christianty was the "foundation for governace", they most likely would've made sure to put in a religious requirement for office. Yet, they went out of their way to make sure this didn't happen.

The idea that the constitution was made with christianity in mind doesn't hold water.

May I rec comend a simple childlike devotion to the life, teachings and Spirit that can be found in Jesus Christ. He called himself the truth. Men make it confusing, and I've been disappointed in how Christianity is presented and deployed here and there but as I think it was Billy Graham who said when asked what the most profound truth was that he held to, he said: Jesus Loves Me This I know, For the Bible tells me so. That's where all true believers start. That is the only true religion. That is the religion of the Founding fathers and of the most prosperous nation... until 1962.

Sorry, but the Bible was written by humans and has been dramatically changed by other humans. Any divine message in it, if it ever existed, has long since been wiped away. By humans. Did you know that during the initial centuries of Christianity, until the Council of Nicea, there were at least four major competing views of Jesus[1]? Adherents of each believed fervently in their own view and felt the others were hopelessly wrong, to say the least. The fact that three of them were squelched so thoroughly that modern Christians have never even heard of them is a pretty dead giveaway that Christianity doesn't have some monopoly on Truth.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

You are right to be fearful of the certainty of extreme Islam. They have their role in the scheme of things just like the Assyrians had their terrorist role. When Israel was disobedient to God, God had another people prepared as terrorists to punish them. They couldn't have harmed Israel had He not allowed it. America lost it's protection on 911 (how appropriate is that number?) and the extreme islamists aren't finished with us yet, they're not finished because regardless of 9/11 we're still on the happy path to gay marriage and basically outlawing God's morality. Hello!

You're partially right, but the fact of the matter is that anyone who is convinced of their own certitude is extremely dangerous. Whether it's fundamentalist Muslims who want to destroy America, or fundamentalist Christians who want to destroy any idea of America that doesn't match what they think it should be, or fundamentalist anything else, any of them are going to be problems for everyone else. Yes, that means you're part of the problem, Wayne, with your own certitude. I find it to be pretty sad that you would declare that America is being 'punished' by God, and will continue to be punished, because of something like gay marriage.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it. George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true. It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.

No, the Founding Fathers did not insist on Christianity or any other religion as a foundation for governance.

Besides the one you actually know, there was the view of Jesus as a human who was never divine in the first place, the view of Jesus as a human who became God's son after the fact, and the view of Jesus as entirely divine and who never was human in the first place.

Oh yes they did. Every single State's constitution declares it. You have only ascribed to the censored version of our founding. Heres what the Northwest ordinance required: "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." Let me translate that for you. It means Bible teaching in Schools. Not any one federally mandated religion (translated sect of Christianity). When they wrote the Northwest ordinance "Religion" meant separate sects of Christianity. They had absolutely no intention of allowing the teaching of false religion or non judeo christian religion in schools, only the true religion of Christ.

If a terratory didn't include the wording above, they were not admitted. That document was written concurrently with the constitution by the same men who wrote the constitution. I'll repeat it here for emphasis and translate it for clarity. "{Christian} Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."

In those days I'm certain they had detractors, Atheists. The Atheists were not able to remove these things from official public policy, but they selfishly have succeeded since. That Sandy Hook killer was the amoral, Atheist result of that self centered god denying result., right in line with Madelyn Murray O'Hare's office manager.

Quoting fixed by moderator (green text indicates a moderator is saying something): Post was otherwise almost unreadable. Please take steps to learn the proper process. Again, PM me for help if you need it.ParkingPlaces

« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 10:19:58 PM by ParkingPlaces »

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The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

Case in point. I asked you earlier why you didn't take into consideration that if had been able to go down the road at 90 mph (because your headlights were working), that you would have been past the point where the cows got in the road before they got there. I live in cattle country. Cows cross the road, but they don't just stand there. They don't graze on center lines and lick off the rubber. They cross the road. They had plenty of time to get there because you were going slower.

Something (god, and angel) told me to stop. If I hadn't, something would have died. I think that's interesting, I'm sorry you don't. But that's Ok. I guess you had to be there. Ford liked it. Anything else?

You apparently don't get it. We want to talk to you about these claims. We want to know WHY you consider them valid. We want to know why you don't think that there are any other possible explanations. We want to know how you connect a gas leak in '89 with a murder spree in 2012. A theatre was involved. Batman was involved. How does that translate to "god must have spoken to me?"

We get lots of christians here, but we seldom get anyone who is so hung up on premonition. Oh, I'm sure we've had the occasional christian who said something like "I was going to drive to Norway, but god told me not to. Then I found out there was an ocean between New Jersey and Norway and my whole family would have drowned. God is great!" But not this "wow god is speaking to me and only me and I should have seen it" stuff.

Back in the '70s, when it was very common, I was hitchhiking from Colorado to Oregon. I was standing at a lonely crossroads in Utah waiting for another ride and I remember thinking "This may not be the wisest way to travel. A guy could get killed doing this." Two days later I read in the paper that a hitchhiker were picked up at that same intersection that same day and murdered. I was an atheist then too, so certainly god didn't have a thing to say to me, but do you suppose I had those thoughts because hitchhiking is inherently unsafe, or because some intuitional voice outside of myself was talking to me?

It was me talking to me. I know that. I don't suspect otherwise. And I hitchhiked for several years after that on a regular basis so it didn't stop me from doing anything anyway.

So in the above reply to me you responded with "you had to be there." That is all you had to offer.

Have you considered the possibility that your communication skills with yourself might not be any better than they are with us?

And I offer again help with your quoting. The post you just wrote is about as bad as it gets. I'll try to fix it but no guarantees.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.