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Grimgor Grubskraga

Posted 01 March 2009 - 04:24 PM

Grimgor Grubskraga

Squigpipes

Grotz

67 posts

Army Name:Waaagh Grubskraga

Wow, taking a long time composing that answer Dim
Anyway, as a fairly quick answer in case the original questioner is somehow still interested/watching or anyone else wants to know, Necromunda is a small scale game where you take control a gang usually consisting of between 6 and 12 members (9 being an optimum number IMO due to the way income works) and play scenarios using 40k 2nd edition rules, usually over a fairly small board with oodles of terrain to represent the inside of a hive city. Following each scenario, fighters gain experience which leads to improved stats and skills. Those taken out of action roll on the Serious Injuries Chart to see what happened - they may get away scot free, die, or be horribly wounded in various different ways, usually resulting in a stat penalty. You gain income from territories your gang owns and after paying for your gang's upkeep, can use this to buy weapons, new fighters, hire mercenaries etc. Within a few games your gangers become quite individual and you find yourself worying a little each time they go out of action in case they've actually bitten it this time. Shared history between opposing gangs' individual members means that the fights can easily become grudge matches with substantial bragging rights. It's something quite special to watch a character develop from a lowly cannon-fodder Juve who would have trouble taking on a grot into a fighter so lethal she's feared throughout your gaming group.
Basically, Necromunda is possibly the best thing to come out of GW, though Space Hulk and Blood Bowl fans would take exception, I'm sure (and I'd best not repeat that on the Conclave...)
The story that develops is the reason I like it so much. To give an example, my Escher gang (extreme feminist, man-hating, punk-ninja chicks ) reluctantly hired on a scummer - Scummer Pete, I unimaginately called him, imagining him to be cannon fodder. When I rolled up stats and skills allowing him to fire both plasma pistol and autopistol at once, twice per turn, usually hitting on 2+, or 3+ if I ran, I quickly realised this guy was nothing short of awesome! Through fight after fight he reeatedly proved his worth, and won my girls' grudging respect. After around 10 games, he was captured. Normally that'd be it for a hired gun, but given the backstory, my opponents let me launch a rescue mission, and following its success allowed me to induct him permanently into my gang for a considerable price. Unfortunately he eventually met his doom on a pitslave's drill in the only pick-up game I ever played them with, and was promptly avenged by a Juve with a hand flamer. Furious at the loss, my Escher over-performed and mauled the pit slave gang so savagely that it would have been forced to disband if it was in a campaign.

BobMakenzie

Posted 02 March 2009 - 02:18 AM

BobMakenzie

Squigpipes

Grotz

66 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Canada

Army Name:The War band of Big Mek Dave

How important are ammo tests and back up weapons?
Just from reading the rules it seems like they are pretty important but then Im not sure I can keep the creds free for back up weapons on my heavies so Im concerned....
To give you an idea Im looking at running a Delaque gang with:
Leader with Chainsword + Flamer
Heavy with Plasma Gun
Heavy wtih Heavy Stubber
5 Gangers, 3 with lasguns, 2 with Manstopper Shotties
3 Juves with Pistols
Thats 990 Credits, 1245 +7d6 Rep...
Somehow I feel like it will be a terrible list and at the same time I feel like its gonna have the most modeling potential for what Im planning. Like I think it will look great, but probably play terribly. All the advice I seem to see is that Juves are good to have as fodders and similar, does having only three put me at a disadvantage in that respect?
Lastly, I feel as though Im wasting that BS 4 on my Leader by giving him a flamer but at the same time, say swapping it for the plasma gun then wastes the chainsword he carries with him anyway, any general tips there?
Thanks for any and all advice! Hope Im not asking silly questions here

Grimgor Grubskraga

Posted 02 March 2009 - 05:25 AM

Grimgor Grubskraga

Squigpipes

Grotz

67 posts

Army Name:Waaagh Grubskraga

Hi,
Simple answer on ammo rolls is it depends on the weapon. You only have to roll an ammo test if you roll a six to hit, so there's a good chance you'll only have to make 3 or 4 per game. Las-weapons don't need a back-up, bolters you probably do once you get the money. I would have said a flamer could use one too, but they tend to be in close combat shortly afterwards and you wouldn't gain an extra attack for having a pistol (since you need one hand free for the flamer). To check whether you want a back-up, work out the chance of running out and reckon on 4-5 shots in the average game. Lasguns: 1/36 x4 -> run out about once every 9 games. Bolters: 5/36 x4 -> run out slightly more than once per 2 games! Your heavy stubber probably wants one after the first few games too - they'll almost certainly run out if you're shooting each turn, but by that point you may have crippled the enemy gang. Depending on the opponent you may find they act more as a deterrant, keeping fighters back behind cover or closing down a firelane. Always remember that even though a 6 to hit is an ammo check, it's also a hit, so don't be afraid to shoot powerful guns at hard-to-hit targets if there's nothing better in sight!
I'd be tempted to swap the plasma gun and flamer over anyway, and perhaps give the other heavy a maul. BS 4 isn't to be underestimated in Necromunda, where every shot counts. That way you have a solid shooting gang with a flamer and 2 CC-equipped members to fend off anyone who gets too close, as well as expendable Juves to grab loot counters, swamp CC gangers etc.
Juves I think are a matter of preference - I never ran more than two (which quickly became gangers) and didn't have problems, but I know others have had success with swarms of 5 or more.
Your gang looks like it would do OK to me - most gang compositions will work, you just need to find their niche and play to it.

Dim_Reapa

Posted 03 March 2009 - 10:16 AM

Grimgor managed a little reply there but I thought I'd add a few of my thoughts seeing as I'm supposed to be the Necromunda Guru

Oh and on Gitsnik's thing, I've decided to make my first Necromunda Article a brief introduction to the game, which, aside of a few sidetracking events, is the reason for the delay.

How important are ammo tests and back up weapons?
Just from reading the rules it seems like they are pretty important but then Im not sure I can keep the creds free for back up weapons on my heavies so Im concerned....
To give you an idea Im looking at running a Delaque gang with:
Leader with Chainsword + Flamer
Heavy with Plasma Gun
Heavy wtih Heavy Stubber
5 Gangers, 3 with lasguns, 2 with Manstopper Shotties
3 Juves with Pistols
Thats 990 Credits, 1245 +7d6 Rep...

Somehow I feel like it will be a terrible list and at the same time I feel like its gonna have the most modeling potential for what Im planning. Like I think it will look great, but probably play terribly. All the advice I seem to see is that Juves are good to have as fodders and similar, does having only three put me at a disadvantage in that respect?

Ammo rolls are fairly important, but they should never put you off taking a gun. It's important to be aware of the risks, say, of taking a Bolter, but you weigh that up against the pros (the Str 4 for a kick off). Some people question whether you should ever take a Bolter for Str 4, when there are other combos (such as Dum Dum'd Stubguns) that do that. Well the bonus is better range, and excellent accuracy, not to mention how deadly one of them gets if you get the rapid fire skill.

Backups aren't a dead must, but they do help. Besides, if you're running a campaign you'll have extra cash to be grabbing backups later on anyway. You should only really be concerned with grabbing them when you can afford them. They shouldn't stand in the way of your A-List of weapons - in other words get what you'll use first, then worry about backups if you can spare the cash. There is a little issue over heavies getting 'Basic Weapons' by the rules in the starting roster of the old and new versions of the game, but everybody grabs basics anyway because GW put them on the models, particularly in their backpacks, but even a pistol does as a backup for a heavy.

It is possible to get over concerned about ammo. It could strike at any time, but there's no point over-preparing for it. If you give every ganger a backup, it increases your Gang Rating by too much. If you don't prepare at all, at the very least you leave your Heavies open to being unprotected if their main weapon goes down.

Heavies could use backups, everyone else just has to run the risks. There are ways to reduce the damage of ammo rolls, such as Auto-Repairers, One In a Million Weapons, Weapon Reloads (they're rare and often expensive items though), Armourer (Techno Skill) and the obvious one, deliberately opting for weapons with a low ammo roll.

There is no ultimate solution to ammo rolls, but I advocate a healthy mixture of ammo types, making sure at least a third of your gang has something very reliable (like Lasguns/Pistols) so during situations of some dire rolling, you should hopefully still have some stuff working for you. Saying that, its not a bad idea to go after a few of the things that are less reliable. Flamers for instance are unreliable, and often dangerous, but you only usually need the one shot.

Try to weigh up the uses. I've known many players in Campaigns go Lasgun heavy to avoid ammo roll issues, but it starts to really hurt them in campaigns when Toughness starts jumping to 4 for some gangers, and so on. Heavies will usually run out first (because they tend to be firing every turn with guns that for fairness will be unlikely to have a low Ammo Roll) but that doesn't mean that the likes of Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers are not worth taking.

The risks come with rewards, but its up to you as to whether or not you think the risks are worth it.

To your own list, that's about average for most House Gang lists, and other than a lot of bad luck, you shouldn't have any more problems than anyone else.

Lastly, I feel as though Im wasting that BS 4 on my Leader by giving him a flamer but at the same time, say swapping it for the plasma gun then wastes the chainsword he carries with him anyway, any general tips there?

It is true that the Leader's BS is quite high, but bear in mind that your Leader should rarely be a front-line fighter. If he goes down you have a lot of problems, but giving him a decent range supporting fire gun isn't too bad of an idea. You have two heavies, which is quite enough imo. If you're going to run more special weapons, it might be advisable to grab a Plasma Gun or something for the Leader later in the game. I'd advise one or two slightly cheaper weapons for your leader.

If you want the flamy ability of the flamer, but want to support the chainsword, I suggest a Hand Flamer. Being a pistol, it will provide bonuses in combat whilst also delivering that all-important flamer shot. You only get the one shot, but that's usually all you need, and then perhaps a backup - either a basic weapon or another pistol, such as a Stub Gun with Dum Dums (cheap man's boltpistol).

I tend to run my Delaque leader with a Sword, Bolter and Hand Flamer - he does quite well against most stuff, but I suggest keeping him well equipped, but not over-burdened. His presence alone next to two heavies have already increased your Gang Rating substantially.

Thanks for any and all advice! Hope Im not asking silly questions here

I merely mention stupid questions such as 'Is Necromunda any good?', 'Can Delagues really be equipped with trenchcoats?' etc. They probably wont get posted up but I thought I'd second guess the possibility anyway.

Grimgor Grubskraga

Posted 03 March 2009 - 03:23 PM

Grimgor Grubskraga

Squigpipes

Grotz

67 posts

Army Name:Waaagh Grubskraga

Cool, I may have played a fair bit, but almost all of that was Escher gangs so my experience is pretty limited compared to yours!
I'm surprised that you advise against making the leader fight up front though - I take your point about problems if he/she goes down, but I found the extra point of WS made a big difference, especially in the early games, and when equipped with a sword and pistol my leader was one of the most lethal fighters I had. Putting someone down in CC also means they're definitely OOA too, rather than just 50:50.
Oddly enough on that topic, my most lethal ganger still only had WS3 when she hit the max XP level, but with a Power Sword, Parry, Feint, Combat Mistress, Killer Reputation, maxed A, W and T, a piece of archeotech that made a meltagun into a pistol (can't remember how - think it was a special mission from one of the Gang War mags), BS 5 and Hipshooting, she was still terrifying!

Dim_Reapa

Posted 03 March 2009 - 03:54 PM

Cool, I may have played a fair bit, but almost all of that was Escher gangs so my experience is pretty limited compared to yours!

I'm surprised that you advise against making the leader fight up front though - I take your point about problems if he/she goes down, but I found the extra point of WS made a big difference, especially in the early games, and when equipped with a sword and pistol my leader was one of the most lethal fighters I had. Putting someone down in CC also means they're definitely OOA too, rather than just 50:50.
Oddly enough on that topic, my most lethal ganger still only had WS3 when she hit the max XP level, but with a Power Sword, Parry, Feint, Combat Mistress, Killer Reputation, maxed A, W and T, a piece of archeotech that made a meltagun into a pistol (can't remember how - think it was a special mission from one of the Gang War mags), BS 5 and Hipshooting, she was still terrifying!

The Archeotech weapon is in the Outlaw Trading Chart from the Outlanders book.

Oh yeah Gang leaders are awesome, and you do need them in the thick of it (his high initiative means he's a good fighter to likely recover from pinning) but you should always protect him, and although most leaders are a combat beast, if they lose a combat and take a wound without other gang members in the assault, you've lost them.

I think it tends to be helpful to occasionally be a bit conservative with your leader, but if the opportunity arises, get him/her stuck in! Any other situation though I tend to advocate at the very least a few Juve Shields.

On the Guru thing, well I mostly claim the title more for the amount of resources I have, but experience does help. Doesn't mean that I know everything or that my opinion is right, so if people want to add their own perspective, that's perfectly fine.

BobMakenzie

Posted 03 March 2009 - 04:11 PM

BobMakenzie

Squigpipes

Grotz

66 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Canada

Army Name:The War band of Big Mek Dave

Hmm, If I dropped the Flamer for a bolter and Ran the Juves with Stub Guns that would give me enough pts to arm each of the heavys with Las Pistols as a Side arm.
Am I right that if I fire a Plasma Gun on sustained fire, I can fire another weapon on that model even though the plasma gun cannot be used?

Dim_Reapa

Posted 03 March 2009 - 05:07 PM

Hmm, If I dropped the Flamer for a bolter and Ran the Juves with Stub Guns that would give me enough pts to arm each of the heavys with Las Pistols as a Side arm.

Am I right that if I fire a Plasma Gun on sustained fire, I can fire another weapon on that model even though the plasma gun cannot be used?

Yeah, as the sustained fire is gained by a max power plasma gun shot, you can't fire it the following turn, but nothing is stopping you from firing something else instead. The rule merely prevents you from using the plasma gun.

If you've seen Demolition Man, Pheonix has a gun that fires one shot and then takes it ages to load. Whilst he waits for that to fire again, he flicks it round his back on a holster and starts shooting with a machine gun. That's pretty much how it works.

The Plasma Gun heats up, that's why you used to have to wait a turn to fire it in 2nd Ed, giving it a chance to cool down so that you could fire safely. They tend to explode if they get too hot.

Grimgor Grubskraga

Posted 03 March 2009 - 07:12 PM

Grimgor Grubskraga

Squigpipes

Grotz

67 posts

Army Name:Waaagh Grubskraga

Oh yeah Gang leaders are awesome, and you do need them in the thick of it (his high initiative means he's a good fighter to likely recover from pinning) but you should always protect him, and although most leaders are a combat beast, if they lose a combat and take a wound without other gang members in the assault, you've lost them.

I should mention that since I play Escher, I tended to leave about three girls providing covering fire while the rest pegged it forward with nasty stabby things. I could generally send my leader, 4-6 gangers and any juves tagging along into combat all armed with swords, expect a couple to get dropped on the way, and to mop up the enemy with the rest in a group melee, trying to only engage one enemy with each of mine but have enemies facing multiple opponents. I had to modify this a little against an advanced Spyrer gang and the horribly broken (but mercifully short-lived) Vampire gang, but against mty regular Delaque, Scavvy, Orlock and Redemtionist opponents it generally worked alright. The ability to parry was a big advantage, especially now I hear swords are only on the Escher starting list - is that right?

Dim_Reapa

Posted 03 March 2009 - 07:45 PM

Dim_Reapa

Ban Stikk Target

Grot Rebelz

4,891 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Durham City, UK

Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun

I should mention that since I play Escher, I tended to leave about three girls providing covering fire while the rest pegged it forward with nasty stabby things. I could generally send my leader, 4-6 gangers and any juves tagging along into combat all armed with swords, expect a couple to get dropped on the way, and to mop up the enemy with the rest in a group melee, trying to only engage one enemy with each of mine but have enemies facing multiple opponents. I had to modify this a little against an advanced Spyrer gang and the horribly broken (but mercifully short-lived) Vampire gang, but against mty regular Delaque, Scavvy, Orlock and Redemtionist opponents it generally worked alright. The ability to parry was a big advantage, especially now I hear swords are only on the Escher starting list - is that right?

Yeah I believe so - let me check. Indeed. I am an Old School Necromunda player though, so I only have Underhive (Downloaded for free, of course) to help you lot. I sniff at the starter rules and suggest you only use them if your campaign pals/gaming group want to.

Its funny you mention it, but I was planning to mention that Esher and Goliaths (ignoring the Outlaws, Enforcers and Spyrers where aggression is necessary) can get away with stuff like that. New Players may wonder why, but all I will say is (and Grimgor can elaborate if he likes) it's all down partly to the starter House Rules and mostly Skill table access.

In general, Eschers and Goliath do favour the aggressive style quite well.

BobMakenzie

Posted 12 March 2009 - 11:28 AM

BobMakenzie

Squigpipes

Grotz

66 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Canada

Army Name:The War band of Big Mek Dave

I got a real, stupid question for real now. I've just about finished my Gang modeling wise but as its not Orks I wanted to double check and make sure I could post some pictures here.. ..Unfortunately I didnt see any specific rules on it...so Im going to ask here! So can we?

Dim_Reapa

Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:05 AM

Dim_Reapa

Ban Stikk Target

Grot Rebelz

4,891 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Durham City, UK

Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun

I got a real, stupid question for real now. I've just about finished my Gang modeling wise but as its not Orks I wanted to double check and make sure I could post some pictures here.. ..Unfortunately I didnt see any specific rules on it...so Im going to ask here! So can we?

Its been done before, so it's fine.

It's the right place to put them, it would probably be more wrong to post them in the meks, so make your own thread and post your pics up. Looking forward to seeing them!

Dod g. Git

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:44 AM

Dod g. Git

Mushling

Grotz

31 posts

Gender:Male

Location:East Sussex UK

The real secrets of necromunda.
Autopistols (never use stubbers)
and
Juves (always give autopistols)
Plenty of both will get you a zany characterful gang with a gaggle of rapidly advancing young guns who can actually hit at range.

Plenty of both will get you a zany characterful gang with a gaggle of rapidly advancing young guns who can actually hit at range.

This 'real' secret is a bit lost on me.

See I rarely take Autopistols on juves. I agree they are a good upgrade, but I usually take Stub Guns with Dum Dum bullets. They hit less, but have more strength. Shots that hit don't increase your experience; wounding hits do.

Also if you're advocating insane amounts of juves, good luck with your experience levels getting all of their pathetic BS and WS 2 into something useful.

Your points are good but the use of 'always' and 'never' seems a bit much imo.

Grimgor Grubskraga

Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:53 PM

Grimgor Grubskraga

Squigpipes

Grotz

67 posts

Army Name:Waaagh Grubskraga

Personally I give them a sword and sometimes a stubgun/dum dums if they're lucky for the S4 and range. Under the old rules, I gave one Juve a hand flamer to good effect too. I find that the extra attack (sword and knife/pistol) and the ability to parry can make up for the reduced WS (especially if they get the charge) and be surprisingly effective against enemy gangers. Multiple hits are more common, amking wounds more likely even at S3. At only 35 creds each, you can often swamp gangers and take them out of action automatically this way. If they die, they were only Juves, and if they survive they should have started to develop a specialty.
That said, autopistols are definitely better than laspistols.
Just a question for Dim, as I don't have the rules here - can you use flails with another weapon? I seem to remember people doing so, but also reading somewhere that you could only use it on its own. Perhaps it was just in the new rules? If it is allowed, it sounds like a nasty S4 combination weapon for someone with a sword and Parry - negate the opponent's parries and still have two of your own.

Dim_Reapa

Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:28 PM

Dim_Reapa

Ban Stikk Target

Grot Rebelz

4,891 posts

Gender:Male

Location:Durham City, UK

Army Name:Trotskin'z Revulushun

Don't get me wrong, Juves are great, especially in large numbers, but they're no replacement for 5 decently equipped gangers imo. Once you got a Heavy, a Leader, and 5 gangers then its up to you where you go next. Personally I recommend upping your juve count later on, as they're cheap to recruit (especially if you have Settlements), easy to replace and easy to equip. That BS and WS though is a very high liability because you can never be quite sure that you can fix it. Gangers aren't much more to hire, and they actually start off with better stats. Juves get a handful more enhancements, but they're still juves, and not the be all and end all.

Likewise, its a matter of taste as to what guns you give them - there really is no 'best' equipment for them. Auto/Laspistols add those hitting bonuses, whereas Stubs with Dumdums make wounding easier. Depends on what you want. Juves are quite good in combat, but generally a ganger can do better against a Juve. Rolling multiple dice is sometimes a liability (fumbles), and that WS2 is decent enough but still quite low. Juves have their uses but they don't win games on their own.

I've played Juve Hoards before and most of the time they offer an above average amount of wounding hit experience modifiers. Your gang can never be more than half juves, but if you have that many it could make or break your gang by virtue of what skills they get. Also some gangs support juve hoards better than others. Delaques, Van Saar, Escher and Goliath tend to produce better Juves in my experience.

Just a question for Dim, as I don't have the rules here - can you use flails with another weapon? I seem to remember people doing so, but also reading somewhere that you could only use it on its own. Perhaps it was just in the new rules? If it is allowed, it sounds like a nasty S4 combination weapon for someone with a sword and Parry - negate the opponent's parries and still have two of your own.

Yes, you can use flails with other weapons for the extra attack bonus. The only time this is actually prohibited is when you cannot hold two weapons at the same time. There are two situations where that occurs:

1. A Weapon is described as two-handed (like an Eviscerator) or can be used two handed for a more powerful strike (like a Power Axe).
2. You cannot get both of your combat weapons into your ganger's hands in time.

Number 2 throws people, but the rules clearly state that you can draw one close combat weapon or pistol before combat. If you had a Bolter out, say, and nothing else, or some other two handed weapon without stating that you had a close combat weapon out, you would need to draw two weapons, so you couldn't get both in one turn, and once you were in combat you'd have to finish it before you could draw the other one. Granted, its a rare occurrence, but keep an eye out for it!

The issue of whether you can combine the aspects of different weapons at the same time is debatable, and as of yet I haven't found anything that covers such an eventuality. I suppose it isn't too much of a problem, because in those cases your ganger would be stuck with two close combat weapons in his hands, unless you had a pistol as well. Saying that though, you can certainly parry and use a flail, but bear in mind that although the combat effects stack (so you get your parry and unparryable ability), you have to use two close combat weapons alternatively - attacking with one hand and then the other, so at best, half of your attacks would be at Str 4. That is the price you pay for using two close combat weapons.

Grimgor Grubskraga

Posted 18 March 2009 - 09:35 AM

Grimgor Grubskraga

Squigpipes

Grotz

67 posts

Army Name:Waaagh Grubskraga

That's easy enough to boots though - a Chainsword will boost the sword attack to S4, a powersword to S5. Getting a strength upgrade on it's own will boost your attacks to S4 sword and S5 flail, and the powersword could bring both to S5. That's not too shabby, wounding on 2s or 3s. I'd consider giving them a plasma pistol too if I had the credits, but I thinkn a ganger with this kind of specialisation would be running every turn until she could charge. Evade and Sprint would be too beautifully lethal skills for this one.
I need to start Necromunda again.