i want no part of woodley unless he plays for half price.
that even includes if we cant resign worilds.
woodley has proven to be fat, lazy and a ******** in the locker room. cutting his ass will be tough to swallow cap wise but will be the best in the long run.
it sends a message to the rest of the team that his type of preparation wont be tolerated. they may think twice about jacking off once they make a few bucks.
we can all hope and pray woodley has some pride but he has shown to have none. he has already stolen plenty of money, why reward that behavior with another 8 million this year?
i would rather give worilds the 8 million rather than woodley. worilds has at least played and produced when given a chance. i dont advocate doing that, but he's shown more heart and effort than woodley has lately and is much younger.
and if woodley leaves and he produces, that will just reiterate what a slacking POS he has been the last few years because he had the money locked up. AND i will guarantee that he wont make 8 million a year for his new team.

01-27-2014, 08:04 PM

Shoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by squidkid

i want no part of woodley unless he plays for half price.
that even includes if we cant resign worilds.
woodley has proven to be fat, lazy and a ******** in the locker room. cutting his ass will be tough to swallow cap wise but will be the best in the long run.
it sends a message to the rest of the team that his type of preparation wont be tolerated. they may think twice about jacking off once they make a few bucks.
we can all hope and pray woodley has some pride but he has shown to have none. he has already stolen plenty of money, why reward that behavior with another 8 million this year?
i would rather give worilds the 8 million rather than woodley. worilds has at least played and produced when given a chance. i dont advocate doing that, but he's shown more heart and effort than woodley has lately and is much younger.
and if woodley leaves and he produces, that will just reiterate what a slacking POS he has been the last few years because he had the money locked up. AND i will guarantee that he wont make 8 million a year for his new team.

So in hindsight, you're saying:

You wouldn't give Woodley the contract that we ended up giving him (knowing what we know now)--because he is entitled, lazy, and won't stay healthy.

But you would give Worilds (a guy with MUCH less production than Woodley showed in his first four years, an extensive injury history, and basically a half-season of "good" production) a good deal?

01-27-2014, 08:27 PM

thor75

I can honestly say I didn't think I would see Troy Polamalu play a full 16 game season with his injury history. Whichever OLB the Steelers go with, lets hope they can reverse the injury bug like Troy seemed to do this year.

Best thing the Steelers can do is to get in Woirlds ear and start negotiating before he gets all the attention from the other teams. Maybe he'll sign for a reasonable number. All the teams saw what Kruger got from Cleveland. He got 4.5 sacks. Not sure other teams want that ROI

01-27-2014, 09:07 PM

NorthCoast

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoe

So in hindsight, you're saying:

You wouldn't give Woodley the contract that we ended up giving him (knowing what we know now)--because he is entitled, lazy, and won't stay healthy.

But you would give Worilds (a guy with MUCH less production than Woodley showed in his first four years, an extensive injury history, and basically a half-season of "good" production) a good deal?

You've summed up the dilemma the FO is faced with. Rewind the clock to 2009, and you make the decision to pay Woodley the big bucks without hesitation. Fast forward to now, a LB with much fewer splash plays wants the big paycheck. For those of us on the outside, not knowing what motivates Worilds vs Woodley, it boils down to a pure gamble. Insiders that might have more understanding of Worilds might make it less of a gamble. Thinking that Worilds had the much tougher road to get to where he is at, methinks makes him less prone to the attitude of just getting by on physical talent, .. his path followed much like a poor man's J Harrison.

01-28-2014, 08:45 AM

squidkid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoe

So in hindsight, you're saying:

You wouldn't give Woodley the contract that we ended up giving him (knowing what we know now)--because he is entitled, lazy, and won't stay healthy.

But you would give Worilds (a guy with MUCH less production than Woodley showed in his first four years, an extensive injury history, and basically a half-season of "good" production) a good deal?

im not saying anything in hindsight.
i was thrilled, at the time, when the steelers made woodley the offer and he took it. he deserved it. i thought it was fair based on his production. everybody assumed he would stay in shape and continue to play hard.
i clearly stated that i dont advocate giving worilds 8 million, but if i had to pay one of those guys 8 million, it would be worilds based on most recent production, shape, effort, attitude and spite.
not sure what words you are trying to put in my mouth here. simply go back and read my post. its quite apparent what im saying.

01-28-2014, 09:28 AM

feltdizz

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthCoast

You've summed up the dilemma the FO is faced with. Rewind the clock to 2009, and you make the decision to pay Woodley the big bucks without hesitation. Fast forward to now, a LB with much fewer splash plays wants the big paycheck. For those of us on the outside, not knowing what motivates Worilds vs Woodley, it boils down to a pure gamble. Insiders that might have more understanding of Worilds might make it less of a gamble. Thinking that Worilds had the much tougher road to get to where he is at, methinks makes him less prone to the attitude of just getting by on physical talent, .. his path followed much like a poor man's J Harrison.

I wasn't mad when we signed Woodley but I also thought we paid him too much... I didn't see enough from him to warrant that much money.

As far as the journey? I think LH had it the hardest and IMO I don't think Worlids had a tough journey at all... he had to sit behind some talent but he had opportunities to show some things when players went down with injuries.

01-28-2014, 09:49 AM

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY

This Worilds debate about injury prone & not taking a starting spot is getting old. Worilds had 2 high priced Prowbowlers in front of him the first three years he was here. Worilds was not getting on the field as a starter...He was there to develop & for depth. Worilds played in more games than Harrison & Woodley over that span. He started the first game & gave way to Jones week 2. Replaced an ineffective Jones against the Jets in week six winning his spot back.

Bottom line...Worilds was the best OLB on the field for the Steelers. He displayed the skills that warranted big contracts for Woodley & Harrison. He became a full time starter at 25 replacing Harrison. Worilds came into this league at 22. Woodley became a full time starter at 24 replacing Haggans. Harrison became a full time starter at age 29 replacing Porter. The risk involved with a big contract is the same in any given situation. Nobody thought Woodley's deal would have looked bad...Hindsight doesn't make an argument void...But it doesn't create a rule.

Draft choices can not be counted on as plug & play. JJ's case isn't a distant memory...That is still fresh. Take that into account & Go with what we know. JJ should turn into a very good starter. Might not be 1 offseason of NFL training but he should become who they thought he could be. He should be able to learn on the job in '14 so pencil him in at ROLB. Woodley will be 30 next year & will be the 2nd highest paid Steeler. He has missed 14 games the last three years & has avg 6 sacks. If that player & contract has netted back to back 8-8 seasons...You get out of that contract. Worilds will turn 26 in '14 & was the best OLB on the field in '13. He is the "inhouse" replacement. Unless you are 110% sure there is a FA out there you could plug in a DL defense & pay "Worilds" money...You make an effort to retain Worilds.

You set the bar based on his 4 years here & current OLB contracts. Yes...Paul Kruger is the "draft". Kruger's first 4 years with Baltimore had 7 starts & 15 sacks. Worilds first 4 years with the Steelers had 21 starts & 18 sacks. I would say Worilds deal should come in somewhere south of Krugers 5 yr / 40 mil deal he signed in '13. I don't think you pay Worilds any more than 5/35 imo. You get the deal done before the new league year kicks in. If you get the deal in place...You cut Woodley with a June 1st designation.

It wasn't Woodley's contract that was the dagger...It was the restructures. The Steelers would be sitting on 5.2 mil of original signing bonus with a release in '14 on Woodley instead of the 14 mil with out the restructures. That should be the lesson learned. They need to do a better job of that. Kruger's deal had only a 6 mil signing bonus with 20 mil guaranteed. That 20 mil guaranteed was the SB, '13 roster bonus, & '13-14' base. That's the way you structure Worilds. All of that still gave him a cap hit of 8.2 in his first two years. Worilds will most certainly play in '14 & '15 under a new deal. If "IT TURNS OUT TO BE A MISTAKE"....Cutting him after year 2 of the deal only cost the Steelers 3.6 mil in dead money. That's where you limit the risk. That's the deal you get done.

01-28-2014, 10:08 AM

Oviedo

Quote:

Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY

This Worilds debate about injury prone & not taking a starting spot is getting old. Worilds had 2 high priced Prowbowlers in front of him the first three years he was here. Worilds was not getting on the field as a starter...He was there to develop & for depth. Worilds played in more games than Harrison & Woodley over that span. He started the first game & gave way to Jones week 2. Replaced an ineffective Jones against the Jets in week six winning his spot back.

Bottom line...Worilds was the best OLB on the field for the Steelers. He displayed the skills that warranted big contracts for Woodley & Harrison. He became a full time starter at 25 replacing Harrison. Worilds came into this league at 22. Woodley became a full time starter at 24 replacing Haggans. Harrison became a full time starter at age 29 replacing Porter. The risk involved with a big contract is the same in any given situation. Nobody thought Woodley's deal would have looked bad...Hindsight doesn't make an argument void...But it doesn't create a rule.

Draft choices can not be counted on as plug & play. JJ's case isn't a distant memory...That is still fresh. Take that into account & Go with what we know. JJ should turn into a very good starter. Might not be 1 offseason of NFL training but he should become who they thought he could be. He should be able to learn on the job in '14 so pencil him in at ROLB. Woodley will be 30 next year & will be the 2nd highest paid Steeler. He has missed 14 games the last three years & has avg 6 sacks. If that player & contract has netted back to back 8-8 seasons...You get out of that contract. Worilds will turn 26 in '14 & was the best OLB on the field in '13. He is the "inhouse" replacement. Unless you are 110% sure there is a FA out there you could plug in a DL defense & pay "Worilds" money...You make an effort to retain Worilds.

You set the bar based on his 4 years here & current OLB contracts. Yes...Paul Kruger is the "draft". Kruger's first 4 years with Baltimore had 7 starts & 15 sacks. Worilds first 4 years with the Steelers had 21 starts & 18 sacks. I would say Worilds deal should come in somewhere south of Krugers 5 yr / 40 mil deal he signed in '13. I don't think you pay Worilds any more than 5/35 imo. You get the deal done before the new league year kicks in. If you get the deal in place...You cut Woodley with a June 1st designation.

It wasn't Woodley's contract that was the dagger...It was the restructures. The Steelers would be sitting on 5.2 mil of original signing bonus with a release in '14 on Woodley instead of the 14 mil with out the restructures. That should be the lesson learned. They need to do a better job of that. Kruger's deal had only a 6 mil signing bonus with 20 mil guaranteed. That 20 mil guaranteed was the SB, '13 roster bonus, & '13-14' base. That's the way you structure Worilds. All of that still gave him a cap hit of 8.2 in his first two years. Worilds will most certainly play in '14 & '15 under a new deal. If "IT TURNS OUT TO BE A MISTAKE"....Cutting him after year 2 of the deal only cost the Steelers 3.6 mil in dead money. That's where you limit the risk. That's the deal you get done.

Excellent post JPN

You're right on the mark about the restructures. It's not about the contracts we did to keep our guys on, it was the constant back loading of the contracts to keep them even when it was clear their production was starting to slip.

01-28-2014, 10:59 AM

feltdizz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oviedo

Excellent post JPN

You're right on the mark about the restructures. It's not about the contracts we did to keep our guys on, it was the constant back loading of the contracts to keep them even when it was clear their production was starting to slip.

we used to release players because we had guys waiting but these days the guys on the sideline and practice squad aren't catching on.. so we keep old heads and bring back old players who know the system.

01-28-2014, 01:32 PM

birtikidis

JPN I agree with you that Worilds had no shot at being the starter based on the guys ahead of him.
He shoulda been able to stay healthy though considering his limited reps. and he couldn't