bk1 wrote:but it's not like you're living in a cardboard box when you're making 70k post tax/loan payments

Except that you're living on $70K in (most likely) New York or Washington. Consider, also, that a BigLaw associate is expected with that big salary to be able to afford things like fairly expensive suits, laundry service, cabs on the regular, etc. Those things add up, and quickly.

Besides, my point is that someone who goes that route ends up having worked several years of very long hours in a job that nearly everyone quits as soon as they possibly can, and all they have to show for it at the end is a nicely padded resume. To some it may be worth it, but I fear that most who tread that path do so ignorantly.

bk1 wrote:but it's not like you're living in a cardboard box when you're making 70k post tax/loan payments

Except that you're living on $70K in (most likely) New York or Washington. Consider, also, that a BigLaw associate is expected with that big salary to be able to afford things like fairly expensive suits, laundry service, cabs on the regular, etc. Those things add up, and quickly.

Besides, my point is that someone who goes that route ends up having worked several years of very long hours in a job that nearly everyone quits as soon as they possibly can, and all they have to show for it at the end is a nicely padded resume. To some it may be worth it, but I fear that most who tread that path do so ignorantly.

70k post tax/loans in NYC is hardly bad. You can afford pretty damn good clothing. I see nothing wrong with taking public transit and a cab a couple times a week won't break you. And wash your own damn clothes.

The issue I have is that most jobs that pay upper middle class salaries are going to be long hours. Maybe not as long as biglaw, but they don't pay as well as biglaw either. And I think a lot of people value exit options pretty highly.

70k/yr in NYC is not rice and beans. I live in New York and that's a ridiculous myth. You can find a studio in the UWS (a few blocks from the 96th street station) for about 2100/mo, or if you're fine living with roommates (as you should be right out of law school), you can pay about $1500/mo for your own room in a 3br. Groceries will run about $250/mo. Subways here run 24/7 and are fairly quick if you live near an express line. Use cabs sparingly. Of course, you will need a few suits and will need to go out for dinner, drinks and the like. But unless you're completely delusional about your own wealth and start picking up $700 dollar tabs, this won't be a problem. All of these figures are real, by the way. There is absolutely no reason to pay more than 35-40k per year on living expenses in your first three years out.

bgdddymtty wrote:You'll be left with only four viable options:1. Make partner in BigLaw

This seems hyperbolic.

Gee, just a little, huh?

How so? Have you looked at the repayment schedule on that kind of debt? If you go to UVa (out-of-state) or any similarly priced school at sticker and take the recommended amount of COL loans, you'll borrow a little over $70,000 this school year. That will probably rise each of the next three years. Once you add in the interest that will accrue on the unsubsidized loans, your total debt load at graduation, and certainly at time of bar passage, will hover right around $250,000.

When I say that you'd need to make partner in BigLaw, what I really mean is that you'd need to stick around in BigLaw (or another career path that pays similarly, such as consulting or banking) for as long as it would take to make partner. That's eight years at most firms. If I'm being hyperbolic, it should be reasonable to pay off that much debt in less time, no? The payment on a $250,000 loan at 6.8% interest, amortized over eight years, is $3,383.60/month, or about $40,600/year. To do it in, say, six years would be $4,238.28/month, or over $50,800/year. Absolutely none of which is tax-deductible, by the way.

Is it impossible to make debt payments of this size? No. But the person who chooses this route will be eating rice and beans until he is in hid mid-thirties, and most likely postponing things like getting married and having kids. Not exactly the reward that most people are expecting for several years of 60-70-hour weeks at a job almost no one professes to enjoy.

Im going to be paying sticker at UVA. Although I dont think its as bad as you make it out to be, it will be hard. Especially with my 20K debt from UG. Hopefully my SO can make 30+ while im in law school to take less loans lol

Have either of you guys ever worked anything approximating BigLaw hours? Or any professional job, for that matter? People who work 70 hours a week (plus commute!) don't tend to have a lot of time for grocery shopping/cooking, laundry, and the like. How many BigLawyers do you see riding the subway, particularly in summer? And then there are things like health insurance and retirement contributions. The point is that money spends very quickly.

And banjo, your anecdote about housing costs reinforces my point. In order to be able to make headway on his debt, a professional making upwards of $160K per year at a grueling, thankless job can go until age 30 or later without having a place of his own with a bedroom. This is not exactly living it up.

Remember that the whole $70K/year in living expenses idea was bk's suggestion of how to get down to only $150K in debt by the end of year three in BigLaw. (BTW, given interest, the remaining debt would be more like $180K.) That's the average lifespan of a BigLaw associate. So, assuming a lateral out to a corporate job at $100K/year, as bk did, one might expect to have after-tax income of $70K. Paying off the remainder of the debt over the next ten years (y'know, until age 38, assuming K-JD) would run just over $2,000/month, leaving him with less than $50,000 per year on which to live.

bgdddymtty wrote:Have either of you guys ever worked anything approximating BigLaw hours? Or any professional job, for that matter? People who work 70 hours a week (plus commute!) don't tend to have a lot of time for grocery shopping/cooking, laundry, and the like. How many BigLawyers do you see riding the subway, particularly in summer? And then there are things like health insurance and retirement contributions. The point is that money spends very quickly.

And banjo, your anecdote about housing costs reinforces my point. In order to be able to make headway on his debt, a professional making upwards of $160K per year at a grueling, thankless job can go until age 30 or later without having a place of his own with a bedroom. This is not exactly living it up.

Remember that the whole $70K/year in living expenses idea was bk's suggestion of how to get down to only $150K in debt by the end of year three in BigLaw. (BTW, given interest, the remaining debt would be more like $180K.) That's the average lifespan of a BigLaw associate. So, assuming a lateral out to a corporate job at $100K/year, as bk did, one might expect to have after-tax income of $70K. Paying off the remainder of the debt over the next ten years (y'know, until age 38, assuming K-JD) would run just over $2,000/month, leaving him with less than $50,000 per year on which to live.

I am currently working a job that often requires "biglaw" hours. Certain months I will regularly be in the office from 8am-8pm. Once worked over 110 hours in 1 week. That week was rough. But working 12 hours a day I still find time to eat dinner with my gf, hit the gym, and yes even pick up my clothes from the dry cleaner. This is extreme cases for me as I usually work 8-6 but some months are consistant 12+ hour days. Its not as hellish as most make it out to be. This might vary person to person based on past experiences though.

The debt scares the shit out of me, but I didnt want to sit out another year and retake the lsat lol so ED to a T14 was my best bet, I hope

bgdddymtty wrote:You'll be left with only four viable options:1. Make partner in BigLaw

This seems hyperbolic.

Gee, just a little, huh?

How so? Have you looked at the repayment schedule on that kind of debt? If you go to UVa (out-of-state) or any similarly priced school at sticker and take the recommended amount of COL loans, you'll borrow a little over $70,000 this school year. That will probably rise each of the next three years. Once you add in the interest that will accrue on the unsubsidized loans, your total debt load at graduation, and certainly at time of bar passage, will hover right around $250,000.

When I say that you'd need to make partner in BigLaw, what I really mean is that you'd need to stick around in BigLaw (or another career path that pays similarly, such as consulting or banking) for as long as it would take to make partner. That's eight years at most firms. If I'm being hyperbolic, it should be reasonable to pay off that much debt in less time, no? The payment on a $250,000 loan at 6.8% interest, amortized over eight years, is $3,383.60/month, or about $40,600/year. To do it in, say, six years would be $4,238.28/month, or over $50,800/year. Absolutely none of which is tax-deductible, by the way.

Is it impossible to make debt payments of this size? No. But the person who chooses this route will be eating rice and beans until he is in hid mid-thirties, and most likely postponing things like getting married and having kids. Not exactly the reward that most people are expecting for several years of 60-70-hour weeks at a job almost no one professes to enjoy.

bgdddymtty wrote:Have either of you guys ever worked anything approximating BigLaw hours? Or any professional job, for that matter? People who work 70 hours a week (plus commute!) don't tend to have a lot of time for grocery shopping/cooking, laundry, and the like. How many BigLawyers do you see riding the subway, particularly in summer? And then there are things like health insurance and retirement contributions. The point is that money spends very quickly.

And banjo, your anecdote about housing costs reinforces my point. In order to be able to make headway on his debt, a professional making upwards of $160K per year at a grueling, thankless job can go until age 30 or later without having a place of his own with a bedroom. This is not exactly living it up.

Remember that the whole $70K/year in living expenses idea was bk's suggestion of how to get down to only $150K in debt by the end of year three in BigLaw. (BTW, given interest, the remaining debt would be more like $180K.) That's the average lifespan of a BigLaw associate. So, assuming a lateral out to a corporate job at $100K/year, as bk did, one might expect to have after-tax income of $70K. Paying off the remainder of the debt over the next ten years (y'know, until age 38, assuming K-JD) would run just over $2,000/month, leaving him with less than $50,000 per year on which to live.

You seem to have conveniently neglected to mention the perks that accompany so many big law jobs. Those cabs you mentioned are often free after billing a certain number of hours per day. Also, a lot of your lunches (and breakfasts) are paid for. Then there are the bar tabs, relocating stipends, etc. that many firms offer. Sure, these may be small perks for the ridiculous hours you put in, but just like the expenses you keep tallying, they add up.

bgdddymtty wrote:Have either of you guys ever worked anything approximating BigLaw hours? Or any professional job, for that matter? People who work 70 hours a week (plus commute!) don't tend to have a lot of time for grocery shopping/cooking, laundry, and the like. How many BigLawyers do you see riding the subway, particularly in summer? And then there are things like health insurance and retirement contributions. The point is that money spends very quickly.

And banjo, your anecdote about housing costs reinforces my point. In order to be able to make headway on his debt, a professional making upwards of $160K per year at a grueling, thankless job can go until age 30 or later without having a place of his own with a bedroom. This is not exactly living it up.

Remember that the whole $70K/year in living expenses idea was bk's suggestion of how to get down to only $150K in debt by the end of year three in BigLaw. (BTW, given interest, the remaining debt would be more like $180K.) That's the average lifespan of a BigLaw associate. So, assuming a lateral out to a corporate job at $100K/year, as bk did, one might expect to have after-tax income of $70K. Paying off the remainder of the debt over the next ten years (y'know, until age 38, assuming K-JD) would run just over $2,000/month, leaving him with less than $50,000 per year on which to live.

Thinking about it now, to me it seems that the important thing is the difference between year 3 and year 4 in biglaw is pretty huge in terms of your debt timeline. I don't think 6 years is necessary, but I think staying that 4th year is the difference between escaping debt in 10 years and escaping it in 15 years. But I also don't think it's absurd to expect someone who exits biglaw to lower their standard of living (granted it isn't easy once it's something you've become used to).

Don't most firms cover health insurance? I understand the issue regarding retirement/homeownership, but those are investments that you are foregoing because you are paying off debt to avoid accumulating as much interest.

I'll agree with you that it ain't amazing, but I disagree that it is actually that bad (though of course I've never worked those kinds of hours, closest was more like 50 across 2 jobs).

Im going to be paying sticker at UVA. Although I dont think its as bad as you make it out to be, it will be hard. Especially with my 20K debt from UG. Hopefully my SO can make 30+ while im in law school to take less loans lol[/quote]

LOL to that.. similar situation with SO. Pickin up the some of that debt would be nice

As noted above, where you should ED if you want to go to the best possible school depends on your numbers. UVA is the "best" since they are predictable and will often waitlist people who are competitive since they are so strict about YP. UMich/UPenn tend to YP a fair amount as well so I'd argue ED'ing there might be a good idea (especially UMich since they are more forgiving about 168/169 LSATs).