Are there women who still want children? - Atheist Nexus2017-08-18T03:51:04Zhttp://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/are-there-women-who-still-want-children?groupUrl=atheistsingles&commentId=2182797%3AComment%3A1977603&xg_source=activity&groupId=2182797%3AGroup%3A128219&feed=yes&xn_auth=noIndeed females say that... an…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-11:2182797:Comment:19777022012-06-11T06:46:20.556ZTNT666http://atheistnexus.org/profile/TNT
<p>Indeed females say that... and then they (we, not me) go ahead go ahead and date "bad boys" and domestic abusers.</p>
<p>IMO, we live in a world of <strong>great solitude and isolation</strong>, and people get desperate, and will hitch up with anything that's fun in bed. Female marriage/breeding choices depress me to no end. When the sex is good, there is a chemistry that happens, that overcomes our rational side (I've fallen for completely incompatible partners, but since I don't want to…</p>
<p>Indeed females say that... and then they (we, not me) go ahead go ahead and date "bad boys" and domestic abusers.</p>
<p>IMO, we live in a world of <strong>great solitude and isolation</strong>, and people get desperate, and will hitch up with anything that's fun in bed. Female marriage/breeding choices depress me to no end. When the sex is good, there is a chemistry that happens, that overcomes our rational side (I've fallen for completely incompatible partners, but since I don't want to breed, I have no reason to misrepresent myself, no ulterior motive but some fun and companionship, so the sexy choices don't turn into bad life choices).</p>
<p><br/>I'll take one of my good friends in example: she'd had 2 abortions, had known many men, was pretty convinced she'd never breed... then she met this egotistical man, who'd bred with two previous females, and left them both. She accidentally got pregnant with this guy, he told her he was willing to be the daddy... so she went ahead and continued the pregnancy. He stayed with her til month 6 of the pregnancy, then left (surprise? ha! people do not change). The kid is turning out to be a catastrophy. I blame her more than him. He lied, everybody lies... she was gullible enough to believe him. The buck stops there.</p> dear me, this is why I dislik…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-11:2182797:Comment:19776962012-06-11T06:35:12.799ZTNT666http://atheistnexus.org/profile/TNT
<p>dear me, this is why I dislike discussing biology with non scientists, sorry if it seems arrogant to you, but this really does annoy me to no end, that you claim scientific understanding of a topic, but your ideas are completely ideologically driven! :(</p>
<p>--Alpha/satellite: there is no conflict, the point was that NOT ALL individuals breed, and there is a lower fertility <span style="text-decoration: underline;">rate</span> with this context for large mammals.</p>
<p>--You said: "drive…</p>
<p>dear me, this is why I dislike discussing biology with non scientists, sorry if it seems arrogant to you, but this really does annoy me to no end, that you claim scientific understanding of a topic, but your ideas are completely ideologically driven! :(</p>
<p>--Alpha/satellite: there is no conflict, the point was that NOT ALL individuals breed, and there is a lower fertility <span style="text-decoration: underline;">rate</span> with this context for large mammals.</p>
<p>--You said: "drive to reproduce", and debated the alpha/satellite male idea, those are standard biological concepts... you reminded me of the way religious people attempt to use the word evolution muddled into their concepts of IE. You're placing social constructs above biological/scientific reality as a guide to humanity, I corrected that. Constructs are like moralities, they only reflect ideology and are fickle. I recognise that you, as a non scientist, would be inclined to place pop culture above science when describing the realities of <em>Homo sapiens</em> life on earth, as a biologist, that is completely non rational to me.</p>
<p>--We live in the 'leading' nations of the world, we set the trends. WE are the nations refusing to sign climate agreements, WE are the nations penalising financial aid to third world countries that practice family planning, WE are the nations that force recessive economic policies on developing countries preventing them from achieving working on the three points I mentioned, WE are the nations that set the bar for growth and consumption that all other nations dream of following. If OUR nations correct our ways and stop meddling/using other countries and their resources, MAYBE we'd have a chance to turn the tides of ecosystemic decay.</p>
<p></p> If you spend even a modicum o…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-11:2182797:Comment:19776062012-06-11T06:07:21.994ZJoseph Phttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JosephP
<blockquote><p>If you spend even a modicum of time researching alpha individuals in any primate group you will find there is plenty. Alpha individuals DO NOT guarantee paternal exclusivity... whence the term satellite males...</p>
</blockquote>
<p>... which conflicts with what you said the first time around. Without the alphas dominating breeding, what does this even have to do with population control?</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>As for pre-agricultural <em>Homo sapiens</em>... genetically, we…</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><p>If you spend even a modicum of time researching alpha individuals in any primate group you will find there is plenty. Alpha individuals DO NOT guarantee paternal exclusivity... whence the term satellite males...</p>
</blockquote>
<p>... which conflicts with what you said the first time around. Without the alphas dominating breeding, what does this even have to do with population control?</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>As for pre-agricultural <em>Homo sapiens</em>... genetically, we have not significantly changed. 20,000 years is but a blip in human history. The one aspect of Homo sapiens affecting survivability which has changed, starting around 5,000 years ago is lactase persistence... a 'new' genetic variation originally occurring in Northern Europe, now spreading around the world to other human races, and occurring entirely separately among the Massai.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I didn't say a single thing about their genetics. I only spoke about their behaviors. You introducing irrelevancies ... again.</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>It's not "<em>my</em> view", I restrict my views to what I see evidence for in biology, through biological academia, not through pop culture. I do have issues with ideologues, such as yourself, who attempt to place <span style="text-decoration: underline;">non</span> biological facts onto biology, just has religion has done for the last millenium. You should remember, debating science with a biologist is similar to atheists requesting proof of god from believers, and not the opposite. You can't just invent stuff and then say "it's biological" because it suits you.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>And I never said a damned thing about biology. I'm speaking about behaviors and sociology. Stop misrepresenting me.</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>In a strictly biological sense, humanity is WAY beyond ecologically sustainable numbers. Biologically speaking, the apex predator (humans without modern technology are but a average predator, but humans at our level of technology are THE apex predator). Many environmentalists tend to pander to humans' greed and ego and place ecological bandaids to "save the environment" that have nearly no such effect. The only effective way to regain a sustainable environment is to have less humans. I had my tubes tied when I was 30... I don't say anything I'm not willing to live up to.</p>
<p>How do we reduce breeding?</p>
<p>-<span style="text-decoration: underline;">UNIVERSAL</span> ACCESS TO HIGHER EDUCATION (versus elite access)</p>
<p>-REMOVE ALL GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES TO REPRODUCTION (marriage and kids, in fact why not tax breeding?)</p>
<p>-ENDING THE RELIGION OF GROWTH (endless growth is not a sustainable dogma).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The big problem I see remaining is that nations that don't agree to this sort of thing will then likely displace those who do. We would need a world government to accomplish anything like what you propose.</p> Religion started the notion t…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-11:2182797:Comment:19778012012-06-11T06:00:05.229ZTNT666http://atheistnexus.org/profile/TNT
<p>Religion started the notion that dying was a "bad" thing, modern medical science has enshrined it. There are days when I wish we never had the Hippocratic Oath, it may be the principal point in human history when we made the wrong decision... that somehow a human life was so precious that it needed to be 'saved' at all costs... Death of a in-group member is sad... but it's not 'bad'. Humanity has confounded both definitions. I'd like to the medical/pharmaceutical industry to make a huge…</p>
<p>Religion started the notion that dying was a "bad" thing, modern medical science has enshrined it. There are days when I wish we never had the Hippocratic Oath, it may be the principal point in human history when we made the wrong decision... that somehow a human life was so precious that it needed to be 'saved' at all costs... Death of a in-group member is sad... but it's not 'bad'. Humanity has confounded both definitions. I'd like to the medical/pharmaceutical industry to make a huge retreat, and focus on "repairing" accidents, rather than "correcting" what is genetically out-of-order. <br/>Given that our society is obsessed with saving <span style="text-decoration: underline;">all</span> lives, were we to use our brains rationally, we'd reduce our breeding to a trickle. As soon as medicine brought our lifespans beyond menopause age (natural end of life in nature), we should have given up on breeding nearly entirely.</p> Point by point...
If you spen…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-11:2182797:Comment:19776032012-06-11T05:50:07.006ZTNT666http://atheistnexus.org/profile/TNT
<p>Point by point...</p>
<p>If you spend even a modicum of time researching alpha individuals in any primate group you will find there is plenty. Alpha individuals DO NOT guarantee paternal exclusivity... whence the term satellite males...</p>
<p></p>
<p>As for pre-agricultural <em>Homo sapiens</em>... genetically, we have not significantly changed. 20,000 years is but a blip in human history. The one aspect of Homo sapiens affecting survivability which has changed, starting around 5,000 years…</p>
<p>Point by point...</p>
<p>If you spend even a modicum of time researching alpha individuals in any primate group you will find there is plenty. Alpha individuals DO NOT guarantee paternal exclusivity... whence the term satellite males...</p>
<p></p>
<p>As for pre-agricultural <em>Homo sapiens</em>... genetically, we have not significantly changed. 20,000 years is but a blip in human history. The one aspect of Homo sapiens affecting survivability which has changed, starting around 5,000 years ago is lactase persistence... a 'new' genetic variation originally occurring in Northern Europe, now spreading around the world to other human races, and occurring entirely separately among the Massai.</p>
<p></p>
<p>It's not "<em>my</em> view", I restrict my views to what I see evidence for in biology, through biological academia, not through pop culture. I do have issues with ideologues, such as yourself, who attempt to place <span style="text-decoration: underline;">non</span> biological facts onto biology, just has religion has done for the last millenium. You should remember, debating science with a biologist is similar to atheists requesting proof of god from believers, and not the opposite. You can't just invent stuff and then say "it's biological" because it suits you.</p>
<p></p>
<p>In a strictly biological sense, humanity is WAY beyond ecologically sustainable numbers. Biologically speaking, the apex predator (humans without modern technology are but a average predator, but humans at our level of technology are THE apex predator). Many environmentalists tend to pander to humans' greed and ego and place ecological bandaids to "save the environment" that have nearly no such effect. The only effective way to regain a sustainable environment is to have less humans. I had my tubes tied when I was 30... I don't say anything I'm not willing to live up to.</p>
<p></p>
<p>How do we reduce breeding?</p>
<p>-<span style="text-decoration: underline;">UNIVERSAL</span> ACCESS TO HIGHER EDUCATION (versus elite access)</p>
<p>-REMOVE ALL GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES TO REPRODUCTION (marriage and kids, in fact why not tax breeding?)</p>
<p>-ENDING THE RELIGION OF GROWTH (endless growth is not a sustainable dogma).</p> There are several things wron…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-11:2182797:Comment:19774892012-06-11T03:01:56.836ZJoseph Phttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JosephP
<p>There are several things wrong with what you're saying.</p>
<p>Your comparison to alpha and satellite individuals doesn't apply to our species. You're thinking of canines and a few other groupings of pack species. Try comparing us to other primates. Bonobos and chimpanzees do nothing of the sort. In fact, in many species of primates, females will specifically have sex with many males, so that none of the males know who the father of the baby is ... and they won't try to kill…</p>
<p>There are several things wrong with what you're saying.</p>
<p>Your comparison to alpha and satellite individuals doesn't apply to our species. You're thinking of canines and a few other groupings of pack species. Try comparing us to other primates. Bonobos and chimpanzees do nothing of the sort. In fact, in many species of primates, females will specifically have sex with many males, so that none of the males know who the father of the baby is ... and they won't try to kill it.</p>
<p>There's evidence that our species behaved in a similar way, during our pre-agricultural period.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then, you're comparing our drive to reproduce to a religious command. You can't hold up something promoted by religion and immediately declare that the opposite must be correct, because religion is evil.</p>
<p>Without the religious command, we have to evaluate everything individually and develop our own morality and life values. Some things religions promote are fine and good. Others ... not so much.</p>
<p>Plus, the way you refer to anyone who has or wants to have children, using quasi-derogatory terms, all you're going to accomplish is pissing off anyone who doesn't already agree with you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The biggest problem I have is that you're sounding sort of like a Libertarian. You're pushing forward this idealized view of how you think the world should work. I'm not hearing any suggestions for how we should realize your ideology.</p>
<p>You seem to be saying that we shouldn't be reproducing, except for our alphas. How do we determine who that is, considering we're not a pack species that organizes under that sort of structure?</p>
<p>How do you propose we restrict reproduction, since our poor, under-educated religious members of society are going to keep breeding like rabbits, skewing our society in their direction?</p> Homo sapiensused to be preven…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-09:2182797:Comment:19764082012-06-09T23:08:19.843ZTNT666http://atheistnexus.org/profile/TNT
<p><em>Homo sapiens</em>used to be prevented from overbreeding also, by reduced fertility rates, but the industrial revolution, and then the medical revolution, have removed all breeding barriers. We used to have several factors that controlled breeding:</p>
<p>-<strong>Seasonal ammenorhea</strong> (seasonal and yearly low fat on females, reducing ovulation)<br></br>-<strong>Lactational ammenorhea</strong> (reduced ovulation by breast-feeding exclusively for as long as…</p>
<p><em>Homo sapiens</em>used to be prevented from overbreeding also, by reduced fertility rates, but the industrial revolution, and then the medical revolution, have removed all breeding barriers. We used to have several factors that controlled breeding:</p>
<p>-<strong>Seasonal ammenorhea</strong> (seasonal and yearly low fat on females, reducing ovulation)<br/>-<strong>Lactational ammenorhea</strong> (reduced ovulation by breast-feeding exclusively for as long as possible)<br/>-<strong>Abortion</strong> (was the norm before patriarchal morality decided to control female bodies)<br/>-<strong>Postpartem depression infanticide</strong> (natural process of adaptation to bad conditions)<br/>-<strong>Child mortality</strong>(death of weaker individuals allowed for stronger humans, less dependant on government aid for survival. Death is a normal part of life).</p>
<p>As for gestation duration, it has only a mild impact on total population. In nature, the foundation of a balanced ecosystem is that grass is most common, then herbivores, then predators are least numerous. <em>Homo sapiens</em> without hi-tech is but a weakling, but <em>Homo sapiens</em> with hi-tech is THE apex predator. We should be putting our technology to reducing population, not growing it. But we're doing the opposite.</p>
<table class="wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter">
<thead><tr><th title="Sort ascending" class="headerSort"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal" title="Mammal">Mammal</a></th>
<th title="Sort ascending" class="headerSort headerSortUp">Gestation period (days)</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody><tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant" title="Elephant">elephant</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_elephant" title="Asian elephant">Asian</a>)</td>
<td style="text-align: right;">616</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale" title="Whale">whale</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale" title="Sperm whale">sperm</a>)</td>
<td style="text-align: right;">480–590</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceros" title="Rhinoceros">rhinoceros</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black" title="Black">black</a>)</td>
<td style="text-align: right;">450</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe" title="Giraffe">giraffe</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">420–450</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey" title="Donkey">donkey</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">365</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra" title="Zebra">zebra</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant%27s_Zebra" title="Grant's Zebra" class="mw-redirect">Grant's</a>)</td>
<td style="text-align: right;">361-390</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lion" title="Sea lion">sea lion</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California" title="California">California</a>)</td>
<td style="text-align: right;">350</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama" title="Llama">llama</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">330</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse" title="Horse">horse</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">330–342</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinniped" title="Pinniped">seal</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">330</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow" title="Cow" class="mw-redirect">cow</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">279–292</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human" title="Human">human</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">266</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla" title="Gorilla">gorilla</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">255-260</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear" title="Bear">bear</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_bear" title="Polar bear">polar</a>)</td>
<td style="text-align: right;">241</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk" title="Elk">elk</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk" title="Elk">Wapiti</a>)</td>
<td style="text-align: right;">240–250</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose" title="Moose">moose</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">240–250</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee" title="Chimpanzee">chimpanzee</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">230–250</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippopotamus" title="Hippopotamus">hippopotamus</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">225–250</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison" title="American Bison" class="mw-redirect">American Bison</a></td>
<td style="text-align: right;">217</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear" title="Bear">bear</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly" title="Grizzly" class="mw-redirect">grizzly</a>)</td>
<td style="text-align: right;">215</td>
</tr>
<tr><td><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer" title="Deer">deer</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-tailed_Deer" title="White-tailed Deer" class="mw-redirect">white-tailed</a>)</td>
<td style="text-align: right;">201</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table> The religious push that all o…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-09:2182797:Comment:19763642012-06-09T17:06:14.472ZTNT666http://atheistnexus.org/profile/TNT
<p>The religious push that all of us must breed is unfortunately still engrained in a majority of atheists. These atheists have drunk the kool-aid that "our" fundamental drive in nature is to breed... but that only depends on the context/definition of "our". If "our" is meant as species, then yes, the species "<em>must go on</em>", but if "our" is us individually, than these people are WRONG. In nature, many mammals DO NOT have every individual breeding. The concept of "alpha" individuals, and…</p>
<p>The religious push that all of us must breed is unfortunately still engrained in a majority of atheists. These atheists have drunk the kool-aid that "our" fundamental drive in nature is to breed... but that only depends on the context/definition of "our". If "our" is meant as species, then yes, the species "<em>must go on</em>", but if "our" is us individually, than these people are WRONG. In nature, many mammals DO NOT have every individual breeding. The concept of "alpha" individuals, and "satellite individuals" is almost the norm.</p>
<p>This push that all individual humans are driven to breed is a religious concept, and atheists need to forget their religious learnings and turn to nature for answers to our fundamental dilemmas. <em>Homo sapiens</em> is but another species on the planet, religion has made us forget that... and science has been a part of religious institutions for 1000 years, science needs to reacquaint itself with nature, this fundamental fact of life on earth, science needs to move away from religious values and get back to biological values.</p> I'm late to the discussion bu…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-07:2182797:Comment:19741022012-06-07T01:42:40.852ZMichael Piankohttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/mierko
<p>I'm late to the discussion but on the few dating websites I'be been on, some women do write in their profiles that they do not want children, a few write that they do want, and many remain silent about whether they want children. I believe there is an unspoken taboo against saying anything about children until you have known a woman for a very long time. I wouldn't mind having a kid, although right now I believe my ideal number of children to have is just one. A long time ago I used to say I…</p>
<p>I'm late to the discussion but on the few dating websites I'be been on, some women do write in their profiles that they do not want children, a few write that they do want, and many remain silent about whether they want children. I believe there is an unspoken taboo against saying anything about children until you have known a woman for a very long time. I wouldn't mind having a kid, although right now I believe my ideal number of children to have is just one. A long time ago I used to say I was looking for a girl to have my kid, in profiles on websites. Then I learned to remain silent about children. Now I would feel stupid about saying anything about having children to any girl I might meet and to me the topic feels effeminate and embarrassingly seriously. There was also a time when I was around 17 or 18 -23 when I told my parents and certain older people that I never wanted to have children and, while they weren't angry at all, they didn't congratulate me for "making" a good decision either. I think they were just unhappy at me for thinking I could perdict what I would want years from then. I think there are women who do want children, but, for some reason, when you mention it too early in the relationship, they don't change whether they do or don't want children, but suddenly they don't want you to be their kid's father...</p> I'm late to this discussion,…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-06-07:2182797:Comment:19740972012-06-07T01:23:07.124ZMichael OLhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/MichaelOL
<p>I'm late to this discussion, and missed the most piquant drama, but here goes.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Conceivably (pun intended), there are social circles where women prefer to remain childless. For men finding themselves in such circles - men who wish to become fathers - this might be a source of frustration. But my mind is utterly boggled in trying to imagine that such circles are common, or large. Many women would be choosy in selecting a mate with whom to have kids - and rightly so. Many…</p>
<p>I'm late to this discussion, and missed the most piquant drama, but here goes.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Conceivably (pun intended), there are social circles where women prefer to remain childless. For men finding themselves in such circles - men who wish to become fathers - this might be a source of frustration. But my mind is utterly boggled in trying to imagine that such circles are common, or large. Many women would be choosy in selecting a mate with whom to have kids - and rightly so. Many would be taken aback by discussing the subject of children too early in the courtship process. But to find oneself in a predicament, as a man, where most women demonstrably disavow maternal urges? Please, help me find such women! Show me where they live, where they work, what they do for recreation, where they congregate! I am not at all being facetious or truculent. Really, I want to know! Most humans have an unconquerable urge to reproduce, despite the ravages of the present economy, fear of birth defects if becoming parents late in life, concern over decay in modern society, and on and on. I have had many promising conversations on dating sites with potential mates spontaneously collapse, when I announced my disinclination towards fatherhood. It comes across as a pathological defect, a sign of poor character or some sort of depravity. </p>
<p></p>
<p>But as we discussed on a related thread some months ago, perhaps one's perceptions are strongly influenced by geographical location. Here in the small-town rustbelt Midwest, procreation is the norm, and any grumblings to the contrary are not tolerated. If only I could move to San Francisco!!</p>