Transcript

Rachael Kohn: These sounds are from a video which shows the violent persecution of the Ahmadiyya Muslim sect in Indonesia. Three were killed in that vigilante attack last year, while police looked on.

Welcome to dispatches from the front line of religion journalism on The Spirit of Things. I'm Rachael Kohn, and you're on RN, on air and online at abc.net.au/radionational.

Religion is a factor in many of the conflicts around the world, so covering it is dangerous. Some media outlets prefer to avoid it altogether. But in today's world, that's just not on. Not only are there significant human rights abuses by religion which need to be addressed, but if properly understood and expressed, religion also contains the seeds of friendship and peace between groups.

Today you'll meet five journalists who are dedicated to covering religion, or at least breaking the impasse between religious groups in their own countries. Waqar Gillani in Pakistan, Erick Kabendera in Tanzania, Hani Hazaimeh in Jordan, Ruth Eglash in Israel, and Endy Bayuni in Indonesia. We all met at a unique gathering of journalists from 23 countries in Bellagio, Italy, where we founded the International Association of Religion Journalists.

I first spoke to Endy Bayuni, senior editor of The Jakarta Post:

Endy Bayuni, it's great to be talking to you here in Bellagio. And we're at a conference for religion journalists, and I wonder, does Indonesia really have a religion journalists?

Endy Bayuni: Not that I know. I know there are people, journalists who write about religion, but with a sense of mission, of propagating their beliefs. But that's not exactly a religion journalist. We have journalists who cover in the Religious Affairs Ministry. Again, most of them cover about, for example, the Hajj pilgrimage that is carried out by that ministry.

So there are issues about religion, but these are mostly covered by junior reporters. I can tell you, in the case of The Jakarta Post, we usually use cub reporters who get assigned probably one of the least popular jobs in the newsroom which is covering religion. There have been some good ones, but after a while they want to move up to different, more prestigious beats like politics, defence, foreign affairs or cover the presidential activities.

Rachael Kohn: So Endy, why are you particularly interested in developing religion journalism?

Endy Bayuni: I see it as a big gap in the newsroom, not just in Jakarta Post, I've seen it in the majority of media, in covering religion. And I think this has become clearer in recent years when we are seeing a growing number of tensions between different religious communities. We have had the communal conflict in Maluku between Christians and Muslims, and then we have had the attack on religious minorities like the Ahmadiyya that has been going on for years now, and then recently they attack again, the Shia. There have been some problems with the small Baha'i community, and of course there have been attacks against churches. So the Christians are the largest minority, and they have also come under attack from some groups I would call radical Islamic groups.

Rachael Kohn: Can I ask you how those issues, those conflicts were handled in the past, particularly the conflict between Indonesian Muslims and Indonesian Christians?

Endy Bayuni: Most media I know try to avoid that issue completely. Remember, this happened around the year 2000, we had just come out from two years...earlier we came out from the Suharto dictatorship, so we just have that freedom. During the previous 30 years under Suharto there was a very specific instruction from the regime; do not cover stories about conflicts between the religious communities because if you report those you're going to inflame the tensions and then you will be part of the problem in religious conflicts. To some extent I agree with that because if journalists handle religious tensions very badly, we will actually be contributing to the escalation of the tensions and the conflicts.

But in the year 2000 when we had the communal conflict in Maluku, the tendency is for journalists just to avoid that story completely because they didn't know how to handle that kind of story, it is very sensitive. You can't avoid feeling that you would be taking sides in this kind of conflict, and probably some media would be feeling that they should side with the majority, some media would feel that they should be with the minority, and some journalists are having difficulties because they cannot detach themselves from their own faith in covering these conflicts.

And we are seeing the same thing again and again in other tensions, the tendency is just to try to avoid the issue completely. 'Avoid' meaning that some newspapers would cover the story but to bury them inside and maybe even just short, three or four paragraphs mentioning that something happened, without even describing the identity of the religious communities. So that's really a big gap about how the media in general cover religious affairs and religious conflicts and tensions. Personally I feel that we need to address this.

Rachael Kohn: I understand you are addressing it to some extent through the training of journalists. How do you, for example, approach the whole question of detaching oneself from one's own tradition when covering a story?

Endy Bayuni: There was one suggestion that we should make journalism our religion [laughs]. But basically what we want from the journalist is that they see themselves first and foremost as a journalist doing their job. Of course, all of us have our own fate, but as a professional journalist we should be able to detach our belief from the work that we are doing as a journalist. I know it's very difficult but I think this is something...it's a big challenge. But we're talking about the professionalism of people working in the media, and I think that's very important.

Rachael Kohn: What about your own faith, and your relationship to it? Does it reflect the way in which you do journalism?

Endy Bayuni: Yes, I'm a Muslim but I'm not very religious, I don't practice some of the rituals in Islam, but I do research and I believe even in Islam there is the belief that...there is a saying in the Qur'an that there shall be no coercion in matters of faith, and I think that's very important for a journalist like me, for a journalist for Muslims to understand that respecting the faith of others is actually taught in our religion. That for me helps as a journalist in actually detaching myself from my own faith in doing my work. And I believe in Christianity, in other religions, they also teach about respecting the faith of others. So I don't see any problem basically in working as a journalist and having your faith.

Rachael Kohn: Let me ask you about, say, the current issues within Indonesia today that you think a religion journalist could cover and could be instrumental in illuminating.

Endy Bayuni: I think the best example is in reporting the conflict between majority Muslims and the religious minorities. The tendency for the media is to take uncritically statements from government officials or from Muslim leaders when they describe the Ahmadiyya as a heretic sect. For a Muslim to say that, I think that's fine, but for the government to say that, I think that's wrong, because the constitution requires the government to ensure that everybody enjoys freedom of religion. That is written in the constitution.

So the government should not really interfere in the substance of religion, and the government's role is actually to ensure that everybody in Indonesia can have their religion, whatever that religion may be. Somehow this is not happening and somehow the media has not been as critical as it should be about the role of the government here. And very often the statements that come out from the Muslim communities are actually coming out from the conservative or radical organisations and not necessarily reflecting the feeling of the mainstream, the majority of Muslims who are...I understand they are more tolerant towards other religions.

Rachael Kohn: How free are you and other journalists to call the government to account on these issues? If you do decide to cover the conflicts in a very investigative way, a very accurate way, do you or your colleagues suffer any restrictions or punitive actions towards you?

Endy Bayuni: Not from the government. Once the government felt offended when we described that there is a persecution against religious minorities in Indonesia, someone called me up from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and said that is not true, you are misinforming the public about Indonesia and there is no persecution against religious minorities. And my argument is that maybe not by the state but of course these harassments, these attacks against religious minorities are happening, and I would describe that as a persecution against religious minorities from the majority Muslim. But the fact that the state is indifferent to all these attacks means that the state is actually condoning these attacks, and this is why we went out in describing this as a persecution against the religious minorities.

We have had phone calls from some of the religious leaders. I have personally received one call, one anonymous phone call asking about my religious identity, and when I said I'm a Muslim, the guy on the other line said you cannot be a Muslim, you must be Ahmadiyya or something else, but you cannot call yourself a Muslim if you are defending the Ahmadiyya.

So far it's just words. It's disturbing, but nothing happened to me, so I guess I feel quite safe in reporting those things. It's not the same for the religious minorities, I think they are terrified about explaining, about coming out and protesting or demanding that the state come out in defence of their right to freedom of religion, because when you are in a minority you're in a very difficult position. If you come out and speak up it may actually be counter-productive. So I think this is where the media comes in. We should raise the point that something is not going right in Indonesia on issues of religious freedoms and this should be addressed.

Rachael Kohn: You're senior editor at The Jakarta Post, which is an English language newspaper. How influential is it in generating discussions broadly on these issues?

Endy Bayuni: The Jakarta Post has a small circulation, but it's actually widely read among the political elite and also of course among the government officials. So we like to think that we have some influence, not in influencing public opinion but definitely influencing people among the policymakers. What I'm hoping to do through the training on religion reporting that I'm involved in, is actually to get other mainstream media on board in actually seeing that this is an important issue, that the media and journalists, when they report these issues they do it right.

Rachael Kohn: Can I finally ask you, I know you're writing a book on the culture wars in Indonesia, that's the terminology we have used a lot in the West, particularly in North America and elsewhere; what are the issues around which the culture wars are being fought in Indonesia?

Endy Bayuni: Well, I'm very passionate about this issue because I think we are missing the point about what is happening in Indonesia. Indonesians as well as outsiders tend to see that there's a conflict between Islam and the secular. If you frame it in that way, I don't belong to either. I'm not a secular because I believe in my religion, but I don't subscribe to the politics or the culture of Islam the way it has been described, which tends to be conservative. So I'm trying to reframe the debate in Indonesia, and I use this culture war that is happening in Australia, in the United States, basically it's a battle between people with conservative views and people with liberal views. And here I would put myself in the liberal camp, and I know many of my friends who also have very liberal views, but they can be religious. And I have friends who are non-Muslim, for example, Christians, who are actually very conservative. So this framing in terms of culture wars is actually more inclusive because we will involve everybody there, we just put them either conservative or liberal conservative and conservative liberal and liberal, and maybe that way we can have a better understanding about what is really happening in Indonesia.

Rachael Kohn: Finally, Endy, I want to ask you what you hope this Association of International Religion Journalists will do for you in your country, Indonesia?

Endy Bayuni: I guess this is also new, the first of its kind, and I'm happy to see that...you know, I meet 29 other journalists from around the world with the same concern about our profession and how our profession covers religions. And this association gave me the chance to network and also to exchange stories and experiences in different countries. Of course we all have different challenges and problems and opportunities, but there is something that we can share and learn from the other journalists.

Rachael Kohn: Endy Bayuni is based in Jakarta, where he is the senior editor of the English language newspaper, The Jakarta Post. For a link to an article by Endy on 'Interfaith Relations in Indonesia Put to the Litmus Test', go to The Spirit of Things website at abc.net.au/radionational.

Pakistan is frequently in the news these days, and it isn't always cricket. Religious separatism is part of its history: the reason for its withdrawal from India in 1947 to become a Muslim dominion in the Commonwealth. Now a democratic republic, religious minorities have not fared well, and that includes some Muslim groups. Waqar Gillani is a correspondent for The New York Times, and a journalist for Pakistan's The News International.

Waqar, you cover particularly human rights issues. What has been your interest in that particular field in Pakistan?

Waqar Gillani: I think human rights is the biggest issue of the country in different ways, in terms of religious freedom, in terms of organisations' freedom, in terms of human freedom, in terms of security, in terms of liberty, in terms of even opening up different avenues of thought.

Rachael Kohn: You are yourself a Shi'ite Muslim. What's the experience of Shi'ite Muslims in Pakistan?

Waqar Gillani: Shi'ite Muslims, apparently they seem happy but in particular major areas of the country we are in the minority, they are being targeted for many, many years. In the late '80s and early '90s we have a very serious wave of sectarianism in Pakistan and a lot of Shias and actually many other Sunnis were killed, and those included very well educated professors, doctors, engineers, and bureaucratic civil government officers. And later in the '90s this was a little bit controlled, but for the last two or three years this wave it seems is again erupting, and if you see the record or press reports of the last two years, there have been several killings of Shi'ite Muslims in different parts of the country, particularly in northern areas, in Gilgit and [unclear] and in tribal areas. And this is not only about Shias but other minority people, Christians and Hindus and Sikhs are also being targeted, and the Ahmadiyya community is also being targeted by the extremist Muslim groups.

Rachael Kohn: What happens to you when you cover those particular issues? Are you in any way criticised or endangered?

Waqar Gillani: Yes, mostly...first of all, being a reporter, we think that our belief is a personal thing, so I generally do not disclose that I am a Shia Muslim, and neither do I try to serve Shi'ite interests in my reporting. But generally while covering the human rights issues, we feel that human rights is a term which is considered by the extremist groups and the orthodox groups in our country as a taboo, and they think that this is a term that is introduced by the West and America to introduce a particular agenda in Pakistan, which agenda against Islam and which agenda gives extra liberty, which according to their Islam is not permitted. So mostly they criticise such reports and they think that the reporters, the people who are highlighting such news items, they are Western agents, they are not serving national or religious interests and they are following a particular negative agenda.

Rachael Kohn: How neutral are the newspapers themselves? Is the scene of newspapers and media changing in Pakistan?

Waqar Gillani: Gradually it is changing, particularly because of the arrival of new media which is electronic media for the last seven or eight years. But still the majority thought is the same, like it is very hard to criticise religious groups openly, it is very hard to criticise establishment elements that are supporting those religious groups very openly. So the ultimate target are the only politicians by the media, but mostly it's not that easy to target those particular extremist groups with their names or give their names or trying to write about the people who are backing them.

Rachael Kohn: Are the newspapers in Pakistan largely sectarian oriented? Do they have strong religious agendas, or are there enough secular newspapers that allow you to address these issues?

Waqar Gillani: Frankly speaking, there are not enough secular newspapers, there are only a few. But generally there are many newspapers which are religious publications and they have a particular religious agenda. But other than national newspapers, mostly they follow particular religious lines, and they appear like-minded, they appear that they are afraid because they cannot write openly against such elements.

I'll give you one example before concluding, that recently there was a sectarian killing in Gilgit, and more than I think 18 Shia youth were killed, they were travelling on a bus and they were targeted by the people, those were wearing army uniforms and they had covered their faces, according to the eyewitnesses and police reports, and they actually asked the Shi'ite Muslims to come down from the bus and they asked them to stand in a line and they shot them dead.

And there were many newspapers, not many, but many national newspapers I can count, those did not mention that this was a sectarian incident, those did not mention that those were all Shia Muslims.

Rachael Kohn: Well, Waqar Gillani, I wish you well in your pursuit of covering human rights issues in Pakistan, and I'm sure we'll be in touch in the future.

Waqar Gillani: Thank you very much, and thank you very much for interviewing me and taking my thought for the Australian people.

Rachael Kohn: Waqar Gillani is based in Lahore, Pakistan. Check out an article by him by going to our website, just put The Spirit of Things in your search engine.

I'm Rachael Kohn, and The Spirit of Things this week is devoted to the religion beat in the press.

Africa would be one of the most complex and volatile places at the moment, but one island of relative calm is the United Republic of Tanzania on the east coast of the African continent. It's home to Erick Kabendera, the only African who was able to attend the Bellagio inaugural conference of the International Association of Religion Journalists.

Erick, when did you become a journalist?

Erick Kabendera: I became a journalist about eight years ago, and it has always been my passion. But in somewhere when I finished high school, I got involved in boxing, so I had to practice boxing for a while. But I thought, you know, as a young man growing up in Africa, I couldn't make a living out of boxing. So I quit boxing, went to university to pursue a degree in journalism, and there I was, I became a journalist.

Rachael Kohn: Well, my goodness, boxing is probably a very good preparation for the sort of investigative work that you have to do.

Erick Kabendera: Exactly!

Rachael Kohn: You're here at a conference of religion journalists, and I'd like to ask you about covering religion in Tanzania. What are the kinds of issues that you have addressed and that are around that maybe you haven't addressed yet?

Erick Kabendera: I think in Tanzania...Tanzania is a secular country, that's what the constitution says, and that has made many journalists, and politicians equally, think religion is not important probably, you know, to have journalists report about religious issues or politicians speak about them, but still they affect most parts of our lives, especially at this time when, for example, in Zanzibar which is part of the union between Tanzania and Zanzibar, we have seen in the last four years Christian…and Muslim majority in Zanzibar burning down churches, Lutheran churches, and threatening to kill priests there. That was a story which we covered, but I think it was not properly covered in the media, fearing that probably it could fuel more chaos.

But again in recent times what we have seen is that politics has gotten so much involved with religion, we see our politicians who are going out to converse for votes, meeting separate religious groups, we have seen actually the president struggling to appease the needs of Muslims, because in 2005 when the current president was running for office, he promised to include the sharia laws in the constitution, that was in the ruling party election manifesto. But when they won the election, it was never considered because you have a strong community of Christians, you have another strong community of Muslims. So it became a national debate, and the Muslims said because you promised it, it has to be there, and Christians say you can't put it in the constitution because this is a secular country. So we have been in this tug-of-war. So we're keeping an eye on that, probably it might become another important story in Tanzania.

Rachael Kohn: Can I just ask you right there, what is the proportion of Christian to Muslim in Tanzania?

Erick Kabendera: It's very difficult to tell because the government has avoided to ask people about their religious affiliation in the national census, fearing that even knowing the number of religious groups could fuel some sort of chaos. So the last census, which asked the people about their religious affiliation, was in 1967. Through some international organisations, the latest census came out in 2010 which said Tanzania in general has 51% Christians and 35% Muslims. So we're going with that until the government probably decides to do that.

Rachael Kohn: And the rest of the Tanzanians would be animist?

Erick Kabendera: I think the case of Tanzania is quite interesting because recently we had a research that was done by the BBC Trust. Their findings actually suggested that 80% of Christians who go to church regularly still consult witch doctors when they want to get promotion at work, when they want to apply for a visa, when they want to get married. So it is very difficult to tell in a country where these religious groups tend to juggle between traditional practices, witchcraft and other traditional beliefs, and the religion such as Christianity and Muslim.

Rachael Kohn: And Erick, you're from a fairly prominent Catholic family, I understand.

Erick Kabendera: I am actually, my family has produced about three priests. My maternal uncle was the first African, and black person for that matter, to work as the secretary to Pope John Paul II.

Rachael Kohn: And what about the Christian make-up of Tanzania? How would you describe it in terms of Catholic, Lutheran...?

Erick Kabendera: There is a council for these two religious denominations, and others actually, we have other Christian groups, but they have a council that brings them together. But what we have seen in recent times is that most people who are Roman Catholic or Lutheran or Anglican also become born-again Christians, so they go to this church probably on Friday and they go to the other on Sunday, especially urban youth who are residing in cities and towns are increasingly joining the born-again community. But another trend we have seen in recent days is that parents are encouraging their kids to join the church, to go to church, to pray. So unlike people of my age, the young ones are now increasingly going to church. In a nutshell, that's what we have seen in recent times.

Rachael Kohn: Well, you're pretty young anyway. How old are you?

Erick Kabendera: I'm 37.

Rachael Kohn: Erick, I wonder about the tensions elsewhere in Africa and how much they influence or inflame the fears or the passions of communities like those in Tanzania who have lived together for quite a while and who do live in a secular country. How much do you think those other conflicts are influencing relations between Christians and Muslims in Tanzania?

Erick Kabendera: Tanzania is generally considered to be the most peaceful country in Africa, but what has been happening in neighbouring countries...or not even neighbouring countries, far in other African countries, is very much or is likely to influence the Muslim or Christian communities in Tanzania, because for the case of Zanzibar we have seen Al-Shabaab militia group, which is a terrorist group in Somalia, recruiting young people from Zanzibar. And when they approach them they say, 'You're going to fight for your religion.' And because they are unemployed, they don't have jobs, they get into that.

But again, the case of Nigeria where there has been conflict and so many people have died, and the conflict involves two big religious groups, Christian and Muslims, and we have had some groups which openly said that they are Muslim groups killing Christians, causing a lot of problems. And all these stories in Tanzania become of interest and people speak about them. In other countries of course, in Somalia, religious groups have talked about inequality, especially Muslims.

So that is somehow...when you walk around as a journalist interviewing people, in one way or the other they do speak about issues happening in other countries, religious issues. So it might not be today, but in the near future I think such incidences are going to have a big influence on our people back in Tanzania.

Rachael Kohn: And what do you think a religion journalist specifically could bring to the coverage of these issues? Do you think they are really needed in your country, or can the ordinary journalist do the job just as well?

Erick Kabendera: I think religion journalists are needed probably than elsewhere because issues of religion have been ignored for a long time. Yes, they are an important part of our lives, and nobody among journalists...I don't see journalists who are equipped with enough skills to tackle such important matters. So we need a lot of training to teach them how to cover such issues. We need to speak to the media owners, the editors of newspapers, that religion is a very important issue that needs to be given priority. We need actually to use the media platforms as journalists to educate the people that human beings are beyond our religious affiliations, we have a lot more in common than religion. And probably trying to show them how they can use religion to bring about development, the religious unity that has existed for many years, considering that our country is still poor, we still have a lot of work to do, but how do we use this religious harmony to move forward as a country. So I think that is an important part of being a journalist, to be able to use his skills to tell the people that religion should be used as a harmonising factor rather than a dividing factor.

Rachael Kohn: Erick, thank you so much, I fully agree.

Erick Kabendera: You're very much welcome, thank you.

Rachael Kohn: Former boxer and now journalist, Erick Kabendera writes for publications in Africa and around the world, including The Guardian. And this is the music he probably listens to, The Master Musicians of Tanzania, the country's leading ensemble, with a traditional tune from the Gogo ethnic group, played on the marimba.

[Music: 'Lukunzi', The Master Musicians of Tanzania, The Rough Guide to the Music of Tanzania]

This is The Spirit of Things on RN, and we're speaking to the people whose reporting changes how we understand the world and in particular the conflicts that occur between religious groups. In the Middle East, that kind of conflict also has national consequences. For Hani Hazaimeh of The Jordan Times and Ruth Eglash of The Jerusalem Post, working together was a momentous decision, it changed them, their readers and their friends. They hope in time that their example will change the Middle East:

Hani and Ruth, were you the first Israeli and Jordanian to work together as journalists?

Hani Hazaimeh: Yes, to my knowledge I think we are the first Israeli and Jordanian to work together. I'm sure there are some interactions between Jordanians and Israelis, but not out in public, but we are the first ones to go out and work together and tell people that this is what we do and this is our job and we are accepting working together, we have no problems.

Rachael Kohn: How did you first meet?

Ruth Eglash: We met first in a conference in Madrid in 2009 at the height of the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza, and we both participated in this workshop with the European Union. For me it was the first time meeting an Arab journalist and having the chance to engage in dialogue and interaction with people from the same profession.

Rachael Kohn: What would you say made you take that step toward each other?

Hani Hazaimeh: Seriously, for me that was the first time that I meet with Israelis face-to-face, and at the beginning before I started talking to them I was reluctant because, as Ruth said, there was a war going on in Gaza and tensions were very high. But then we were in the same room and it didn't make any sense not to interact, and then I decided, I said if I want to understand what's going on on the other side, it's important that I hear them. It's not necessarily that I believe them or I take whatever they say for granted, but it's important that I hear. Maybe we can talk about it and discuss it. And the surprise was that when I talked to them and discussed with them, I realised some of them even agree with what I think regarding this conflict and this eternal struggle between the Arabs and the Israelis, it's wrong. They look at it from a humanitarian perspective, I did the same, and they would believe that there are victims on both sides, and that's how I started realising that interaction is so important, regardless of whether you like or dislike the other side.

Rachael Kohn: What about the religious traditions that you both carry? You're a Muslim Hani, you're a Jew Ruth, did that help or hinder the way you approach each other?

Ruth Eglash: You know, the funny thing is I actually think on a religious level we have even more in common than we imagined. Often when there are festivals, Jewish holidays in Israel, I'm in touch with Hani through social media, and he asks me about them, and it's his first opportunity that he's had to find out about the Jewish traditions. And the more that we discuss it, the more we realise how similar those traditions are. I think probably Judaism and Islam are very, very close in their basis, and the life cycle events and rituals are very, very similar.

Rachael Kohn: Let me ask you about the project you did work on together, which was about education. Why did you choose that subject?

Hani Hazaimeh: Because both countries have signed a peace treaty in 1994, and when we met in 2009 it was like the 15th anniversary of the peace treaty, and yet there had been no significant interaction between the peoples of both sides. And then we realised there must be something wrong, that this peace treaty is not being very active, and the best way is to understand why people still hate each other. So we did not want to go to the older generations, we said let's go and check the education, what both sides learn about each other. If there is truly peace between them then they should at least see each other as neighbours, as friends.

So I went to the schools and went to the universities, I spoke to students and I spoke to academics and then professors and stuff like that, and I realised it was only...the peace treaty was only ink on paper and there was nothing being done, and the education was the same as before the peace treaty. Israel was still perceived as an enemy, the Israelis are still seen as our enemies. That was the tragic thing.

Rachael Kohn: Ruth, what did you discover in your investigation of the Israeli education system?

Ruth Eglash: The information that Hani gave me about what was going on in Jordan wasn't such a surprise to me. What I did find surprising was how little emphasis or little attention is paid in Israel to the greater Middle East. It's almost like Israel is an island, and anything beyond its eastern border doesn't exist. The world ends at the border with Jordan. And even in textbooks looking at the history of the Middle East or the history of the creation of Israel, it's always with a view to the West. And also there was a big issue with the maps in school books. The borders of Israel, whether the West Bank is part of greater Israel or not part, areas where there is large Arab populations were almost not represented on these maps. Those were the things that shocked me.

Rachael Kohn: But did you find a variation in the educational system? I mean, obviously there is a diversity within Israel in terms of public opinion and religion.

Ruth Eglash: There is an emphasis on learning Arabic in the schools, which I found that was very positive, as far as I know it's compulsory for at least two or three grades to study the Arabic language, which obviously helps towards fostering ties and bringing people closer together. And there were schools that had interactions with the Jordanians, with Palestinians, and with the local Arab population as well. So that was positive.

Rachael Kohn: Hani, what did you discover, specifically in the educational materials in Jordan about Israelis?

Hani Hazaimeh: Let me first say this, that if you want to live in peace with your neighbour you have to know and learn about their habits, about their life, so that you can understand them well, and the best way to do this in terms of Israel and Jordan, I think the best way is to start with the new generations, is to start teaching them. We accepted to sign a peace treaty with Israel, then we must accept to live with them in peace.

Generally speaking the school texts, either in public or private schools, are all the same, Israel is still perceived as the enemy and it's a matter of struggle over land, and there will always be this conflict until the Palestinian issue is resolved. So what I discovered in the education what students are being taught is horrible.

I remember once speaking to a student, 'What do you know about Israel?' She said, 'I don't know, Israel, they kill Palestinians.' 'What else do you know?' 'My teacher teaches us, once she told us if we have five Israeli soldiers and we kill three of them, how many Israelis remain.' This is the kind of story, these are the shocking stories that even children learn about Israel. I've been to Israel several times, I met with the Israelis, Israelis are not just the Israeli government, Israelis are not the politicians, there are people who think like us, who have feelings, who think like a human and they see us as humans and they also think the situation must end in a way that both sides are happy and living in peace and coexistence. Not everybody in my country knows that.

Rachael Kohn: Hani and Ruth, when you were working on this project you were both employed by your newspapers. What did they think of what you were doing?

Hani Hazaimeh: I did not consult with my newspaper actually, I started this without telling anyone else until our first product broke out, and it was all out in the media. And then the story we wrote, it was about what we found in both our countries, how both sides are learning about each other, and when it was translated into Arabic it was a disaster because they took it out of context and they started accusing me of calling for teaching Judaism in Jordanian schools, and then some people called me for collaborating with the enemy and stuff like that.

It was bad, to the extent that my editor-in-chief said, 'Listen, you did this on your own, you did not consult with us, so whatever negative impact comes, you will have to take the consequences, we're not going to defend you.' And even the Jordan Press Association, they were considering revoking my membership. Some people even went as far as asking the government to revoke my nationality and kick me out of the country. At first it was really annoying to me.

Rachael Kohn: Did it shock you and your family?

Hani Hazaimeh: Yes, the horrible thing was the impact on my family. My family were shocked. They called me, they said, 'You're defaming the family's reputation.' We have a history of fighting the Israelis. My uncle died in one of the battles, he is a martyr. And I said, listen, I did this out of my personal conviction and I think it's right, I'm a journalist, I'm human, I have all the rights to understand what's going on. I don't want to just sit and receive information from whoever because they want to spread their ideas and thoughts and impose them on me. I wanted to know what is really happening.

What I wrote does not contradict with my beliefs. It does not mean that I'm giving up on Palestinian rights, it doesn't mean that I'm saying Israel has the right and Palestinians do not have the right. That's not true. All I'm saying is that the politicians have been working for 60 or maybe more than 60 years to solve this problem and it has been a total failure so far. Why don't we just let the people understand and maybe they can get a push from us. Because this is what we want. If we understand them well and realise that they support some of the demands or some of the rights, then maybe we can work together as people to push for a solution to the struggle in the region.

Rachael Kohn: Ruth, what was the reaction that you faced in Israel?

Ruth Eglash: I didn't have such an extreme reaction like Hani experienced in Jordan, but there was a social dialogue that can become uncomfortable, people who hold different views, it's a very heated topic. But people on the whole were very impressed that I'd managed to cross that bridge to work with a Jordanian. They understand the difficulties and the barriers that there are between the two countries, and people were impressed that I had gone out and done that. In general, most people were.

Rachael Kohn: Do you have any sort of clear evidence that what you did, and what I think are going to continue to do, is having an effect, is changing attitudes? Even in your close circle or beyond?

Hani Hazaimeh: First, my newspaper at the beginning of the year were not happy with what I was doing, but in the aftermath I started just discussing the whole thing with my editor-in-chief, and because I'm a political affairs reporter and most of what I write about is the Palestinian/Israel issue, and every time he asked me to write about it I would insist on taking the Israeli side, not just take the Palestinian side. It took me two years to convince him, but eventually he agreed. So now you can see in my writings that I include both sides in my stories. That's huge progress.

The other thing is Ruth and I agreed that as long as we both did it, I think there are others who would be willing to do the same thing we did. I know, as I said, there are many people who attacked me, but there are others who supported me but they were just scared. Because of what happened to me, they were thinking twice about being out in the public and supporting me, but I have to admit, they called me, they sent me emails, I met with them and they said you're not doing anything wrong, we believe what you're doing is right and we support you but you know how the situation is.

We have this Anti-Normalisation Committee in Jordan who is just waiting to see anybody collaborating with Israel and they will just blacklist them and start accusing them of normalising ties with the enemy and stuff like that. Regardless of what has happened, I think there is a big chance that we can attract more people to work with us, and it has started. Ruth and I have a project, we're inviting journalists from our respective countries, including from the Palestinian side, and so far we've been successful to run two workshops for journalists and we told them about what's going to happen and we told them you are going to be attacked but we have to be strong, we have to stand up and speak out. We're not talking about politics, we're talking about humanitarian aspects of the conflict, about the common ground between both peoples. We have so many challenges that we need to discuss and talk about, it's not just the fight over land. So many things in common.

Ruth Eglash: Sometimes when I think about what we achieved and I think about the barriers that we faced, it seems overwhelming, that we would never, ever be able to overcome such animosity between both sides, such hatred. But slowly, slowly each step is like overcoming a huge mountain. And it's a very incredible feeling when you have someone who you thought would never, ever agree to working with an Israeli or even talking to an Israeli, suddenly just come over and say hi or interact or be in touch, and that's an incredible achievement in the Middle East.

Rachael Kohn: Have you generated any other cross-border cooperative projects?

Ruth Eglash: Inspired by what I did with Hani I also reached out to a Pakistani journalist in the aftermath of Osama bin Laden's killing, and I did a joint story with him. And I firmly believe it is very important as a Jew and as an Israeli to hear all sides of any conflict. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is set in a wider context of conflict with the Arab world, the misunderstanding between the Jewish and Muslim world. And it is my role to try and bring all those voices so we can hear and then make a valued judgement.

Rachael Kohn: How much does your project reflect high ideals or just the two of you? Do you have a particular friendship, a particular simpatico? Could you have done this with another Israeli, and other Jordanian?

Hani Hazaimeh: Well, for me, after I met Ruth, now I have no problem with working with any Israeli. Ruth is not my only Israeli friend, I have now lots and lots of Israeli friends, they are on my Facebook page, we call each other. Even journalists, if they want anything from Jordan, they call me. Sometimes they come to Jordan and I facilitate their meetings and their interviews with Jordanians or with whatever story they would be working on. So yes, this is inspiring, this was a great opportunity to meet Ruth, and what happened afterwards. Now I think I'm a little bit different than Jordanians, maybe I'm liberal, I studied in the States, maybe that's why, but still, I am 100% sure that there are many, many other Jordanians like me and they are just waiting for the chance. Yes, they are just waiting for someone to push them and tell them, come on, let's do it, let's be brave enough to do it. It has to be done, it has to be done. We're living side by side, it can't continue like that.

Ruth Eglash: As well as the Pakistani journalist that I worked with, I have some strong bonds with some Palestinian journalists. One amazing journalist from Ramallah who I encouraged to write for The Jerusalem Post and she contributes on a regular basis. Another journalist who I am now trying to work with to overcome some of the barriers so that we can do some joint reporting. Obviously Hani and I found a way to overcome those barriers, and no, it might not be easy for other journalists on both sides, but I think that we are a good example, and hopefully people will follow our lead.

Rachael Kohn: I certainly hope they do too. But let me ask you finally, does this experience have an effect on the way you carry your tradition? Hani, do some of your compatriots say you're not a real Muslim?

Hani Hazaimeh: No, not at all, it never happened. I think it's got nothing to do with religion, it's just a fight over land, it's got nothing to do...I mean, knowing an Israeli doesn't mean that I'm going to convert to Judaism. I'm a Muslim and I love my religion and I will always be a Muslim. I don't think it's got anything to do with religion. No one ever mentioned this to me at all.

Rachael Kohn: And Ruth, do any Israelis use your friendship and your particular interests in fostering friendships with Arabs and Muslims, do they ever use that against your Jewishness?

Ruth Eglash: Not against my Jewishness, but I think in the heat of this conflict people are very quick to give labels— this person is left-wing, this person is right-wing, this person is a sympathiser, this person is anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish—people are very quick, and I just really see it as a human issue. We're all human beings, it's my job as a journalist to hear everyone's voices, and I cannot use my own personal beliefs to change that.

Rachael Kohn: Ruth and Hani, you are both such a great inspiration, thank you so much for speaking to me.

Ruth Eglash: Thank you.

Hani Hazaimeh: Thank you Rachael.

Rachael Kohn: As talks between Palestinian and Israeli leaders break down, it just might be the courageous journalists like Hani Hazaimeh and Ruth Eglash who can get people on the ground thinking and acting toward normalisation and peace. As Hani said, sometimes it just takes one person breaking ranks. He's senior journalist at The Jordan Times and Ruth Eglash is deputy managing editor of The Jerusalem Post.

The International Association of Religion Journalists website is soon to be launched, but in the meantime find links to the association and to a photo gallery on our website at abc.net.au/radionational and select The Spirit of Things. You can also download today's audio or listen online at any time by going to our website. Later this week you can read a transcript.

I recorded this program in Bellagio, Italy, and would to thank the Rockefeller Centre for providing such idyllic surrounds and to David Briggs, the executive director of the International Association of Religion Journalists.

The Spirit of Things is produced by me and Geoff Wood, with sound engineering by Luke Purse.

I'm Rachael Kohn, I look forward to your company next week, at the same time, right here, on RN.

Guests

Endy Bayuni

Senior Editor, The Jakarta Post, Indonesia.

Waqar Giliani

Journalist, based in Lahore, Pakistan, works for the The News International as well as a stringer for The New York Times.

Erick Kabendera

Journalist based in Tanzania, writes for The Citizen, The Guardian, The Times of London.

Credits

Comments (5)

John Wiffen :

23 Apr 2012 1:07:07pm

Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your recent interview with A C Grayling and the very moving selected readings from 'The Good Book'. As an atheist and long time fan of your show would love to see The Spirit of Things tackle similar themes to this more regularly.

binyomin :

23 Apr 2012 10:37:55pm

By the Grace of G-dGreetings and Blessings,

The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson – King Messiah, the Judge, the Mentor and the Prophet of the generation teaches: “The eternal G-d gave the eternal Land of Israel – with all its borders outlined in the eternal Torah - to the eternal Jewish People as an exclusive eternal inheritance. What's ours is ours and what's yours is yours. Gentiles have a large world and the Jewish People have a small area. A Gentile who takes even half of a grain of The Land of Israel is guilty of robbery, and violates The Laws of Noah which are incumbent on all Mankind; for Gentiles have no connection to The Land of Israel whatsoever. [For more information about The Laws of Noah visit : noahide.org] G-d promises The Jewish People that when they safeguard their exclusive eternal inheritance, G-d will give us true peace in the Land of Israel, and true peace in the entire world. G-d blesses those who bless The Jewish People.”

Prophecy of The Rebbe - King Messiah: “Immediate Redemption. Behold! The Messiah has come.”

Cheryl T :

27 Apr 2012 12:47:42pm

Thank you, Rachael, for an inspiring program featuring five journalists who are trying to make a difference. I congratulate these journalists for their courage, in particular Waqar Gillani, Erick and Endy Bayuni for seeking to improve standards of global religious coverage. I hope that the recent launch of the world’s first International Association of Religion Journalists (IARJ) will be a great success.

Genevieve :

27 Apr 2012 3:06:44pm

The topic ‘’Religion Journalists’’ was both positive and interesting. The creation of the International Association of Religion Journalists will hopefully improve the standard of religious reporting, and overcome the numerous challenges facing the fair and accurate coverage of global religious conflicts. Islamic extremist groups such as the Australian branch of Hizb’ut Tahrir need to be continuously monitored and exposed, without journalists being accused of mounting an attack on Islam. The accurate reporting of global religious fundamentalism and conflict is crucial and needs to be supported and encouraged.

Annette Gladwin :

29 Apr 2012 1:25:52pm

What an inspiration are Ruth Eglash from Israel and Hani Hazaimeh from Jordan! They diligently worked together in cross-border collaboration to dissolve the negative impressions of each other ingrained within their respective societies. It goes to illustrate how visiting their respective countries and becoming friends can make a big difference.

However, it was disheartening to hear about Jordan’s "anti-normalisation" policy regarding contact with Israel, and the attempt to threaten and scare journalists like Hani, who seek to promote peace and strive to demolish the hurdles of fear and suspicion. These two individuals are currently involved with The International Association of Religion Journalists. This organisation targets religion as a determinant in regional conflicts and global concerns. Its members have unique knowledge and skills which can assist us all to comprehend global events and shape new avenues to peace.