The Judy Garland Wars – Chapter Three – The Judy List (Part One)

NOTE: All quotes and transcripts from The Judy List have been copied verbatim from the List archives, as made available for download on The Judy List website for several years running prior to its demise. These archives include personal email addresses and full names. I have x’d out the email addresses and removed the last names, replacing them with just the first initial – excepting the names of celebrities, known authors, media producers, web masters, those with published works, etc.

Also note that “[snip]” means that a paragraph or section of a post has been removed as being irrelevant to the subject at hand.

THE JUDY LIST’S EARLY YEARS

Screenshot of “The Judy List” archive page from November 1999

Long before we had “social media” (the term hadn’t yet been coined), we had a variety of discussion forums. These forums were usually ListServes or Bulletin Board Systems (BBS). “The Judy Garland Database” featured a BBS that was popular, but the main forum at which Garfans decided to congregate was Mark Harris’ The Judy List. Being a ListServe, The Judy List was easier than a BBS in that it was sent directly to one’s email inbox, and one could reply via their email rather than going to a browser to find a topic and then comment on it. Much like Yahoo Groups today, members could opt to receive each individual email when it was sent to the List (usually going through Harris’ approval first), or wait for the daily digests that were usually delivered to member’s email inboxes each morning. This was great because in 1996 browsers were limited and clunky, making the BBS difficult to move around in.

The Judy List began innocently enough. Harris, who was the owner of the website that housed the List, as well as its webmaster and discussion moderator, issued the first digest on September 29, 1996. It was quite simple in that it consisted of one post by Harris welcoming the initial fifteen members, however it didn’t take long for the List to catch on. Never before had Garfans and Garfreaks been able to connect so easily. Prior to the Internet, fans were concentrated in clusters in large cities networking through friends or via the back pages of various fan magazines. Thanks to the magic of the Internet all of us were able to make new friends, pen pals, and learn and discuss every bit of conceivable minutia about Judy Garland. It didn’t take long for the intense jealousies and competitions inherent in the Garfreak subculture to pop up. What would become common in later social media sites like Facebook and Twitter began in these early discussion forums.

Fifteen people have signed up within hours of my mailing the
announcement to all members of the Judy Garland Internet Fan
Club. I hope many more will be joining us from that mailing,
as well as from the listing on many of the popular WWW
Mailing List lists that I’ve submitted.

To start off with some new news, my local BestBuy was
selling the new “Collectors’ Gems From The M-G-M Films” 2-CD
set days before its official release from Rhino when I
visited the store a few days ago. You can bet my conscience
did not stop me from picking it up, though.

As with other Judy soundtrack releases on Rhino, the
accompanying booklet was written by John Fricke, who never
ceases to amaze me with the new Judy tidbits and info that
he comes up with whenever he takes on a new project.

The tracks are as wonderful as you’d expect, and really do
live up to the title of the set. The transfers are pristine,
for the most part. There are a few cuts that have more than
the normal amount of bad places in them, and the booklet
explains why. Even more amazing is that many of these
tracks, even the early ones, are presented in full spectrum
stereo. Only five of the cuts have been released before (on
a 1970’s vinyl box set from MGM and a Spanish-imported CD).
The rest are all presented for the first time away from the
motion picture they come from. The *real* gems are the
outtakes of songs that never made the movies (i.e., Paging
Mr. Greenback, Voodoo). I’ll close this hearty
recommendation with a list of the songs. It should be
available this week at “finer music stores” everywhere. I
placed an asterisk next to the tracks that are substantially
different than the movie version (extended versions) or
those that were recorded but didn’t make the final movie
cut.

[snip – Harris provided the track listing here]

Well, that’s all for this first edition of The JUDY List!
Looking forward to some great discussions with you folks.

After the above post, it took a few days to catch on. Harris noted in the second issue that he received more subscription requests but no actual discussions so he re-posted his initial post. The third digest (October 1, 1996) contained the first discussions, innocuous stuff about Judy’s performance in I Could Go On Singing and some questions about Judy’s recordings, with a William B having the distinction of being the very first person to post to the List:

Hi Everyone!
The other day I was going through my casette tapes
that I recorded off of some of my albums about ten years
ago. One of them has the recordings of “There’s Only One
Union” “Maggie May” and “The Land Of Promises”. I had
forgotten how wonderful these recordings are!! I can’t find
the album that I recorded them from. What’s the story on
these? They are obviously studio recordings but I’m not sure
where they come from.

I’m sure if I looked harder through my record collection and
and did some research in my books I might find the answer
but I thought this might be more fun! Besides, maybe this
will prompt some of you to get these songs out and listen to
them! They are definitely “different” and truely a joy to
listen to! Judy recorded SO MANY songs that I feel sometimes
a few of them get lost in the cracks. I can’t wait to hear
from everyone!
Thanks!
–Mary M
______________________________________

From: MARK G,xxxxxxxx@msn.com
Subject: in this age of flying saucers and sputniks !!!!

first of all, a big thanks to mark (from a fellow mark) on
offering this service to anyone who is interested in
judy…i am going later on today to purchase the judy mgm
outtakes cd set..thought i would share with the other list
members some other judy releases due this year (although i
am sure if you read jim johnson’s pages, you’ll know about
this already)..this comes from DISCoveries magazine :
october 15th: MICKEY AND JUDY: GIRL CRAZY OST (Rhino)..i
imagine this is the same as the “Girl Crazy” CD on the JUDY
AND MICKEY box set…..october 22nd: JUDY GARLAND:THE
COMPLETE DECCA ORIGINAL CAST RECORDINGS (three 78 RPM
albums on one CD) (MCA)..just thought someone out there
would like to know….also does anyone out there know if
mickey deans is still alive?? just curious as i had heard a
few years back that he may have died…thanks and good
night (xxxxxxx@msn.com).
______________________________________

From: Mark Harris,xx@fctim.interpath.com
Subject: That reminds me….

The lyrics to “Purple People Eater” reminded me of something
I’ve wondered about for sometime. Back in the 70’s, I picked
up a Judy vinyl LP at a record store that I’d never seen
before or since. It’s on Mark56 records, and is titled “Judy
Garland In San Francisco”. I used to assume this was a
repackaged “Garland At The Grove” because the original LP
had been discontinued by then and it contained “Purple
People Eater” and I’d understood that the only time Judy
recorded this was on the Grove LP.

Imagine my surprise when Capitol’s excellent 25th
Anniversary came out and that version of “PPE” is *not* the
same version I’d known for many years on my “In San
Francisco” LP.

Now I’m puzzled. Does anyone know the date this album might
have been recorded (it had to have been during 1957-58),
where it was recorded, etc.? Shouldn’t be too difficult
since she didn’t sing the song for long.

My prize Judy LP is one handed down to me from my
grandfather. It’s a 10-inch 33-1/3 cast recording of Girl
Crazy on Decca that he bought back in the 50’s when it was
first released. It has no cover. Probably little value other
than sentimental. My grandfather first gave me my
appreciation of Judy. He was a fan of hers since “that
football movie that was one of her first ones”. It took me
30 years to finally see Pigskin Parade (on AMC this past
summer). And the cable went out in the middle of it. <sigh>

Does anyone else have the real nice MGM vinyl LP box set
from the 70’s, called “The Golden Years At M-G-M”, which
comes in a sturdy white box with a caricature of Judy and
the title embossed on the front in gold? This was another
“one of a kind” thing I found in the same record store I got
“In San Francisco”. Never seen it at record shows or second
hand stores. Anyone know the value?

I’ll stop rambling about Judy LPs now and let someone else
get a word in edgewise. I never have anyone to talk Judy
stuff to, so I’ve got so many questions and so many opinions
to share. <grin>

Mark Harris
The JUDY List Manager
___________________________________

[On October 3, 1996: ]

From: Mark Harris,xx@fctim.interpath.com
Subject: Columbia singles?

We’ve been talking about some of Judy’s rarer recordings,
but I haven’t heard any mention of the singles Judy recorded
for Columbia around the time of A Star Is Born. Anyone know
anything about them or, even better yet, have recordings of
them they’d like to trade?

Of note is the fact that although things would sometimes get heated and crazy early in the List’s existence, these old digests are fairly tame when compared to social media today. Just a glance at one or two of the many Judy Garland related Facebook groups will make much of The Judy List seem like a trip to the sweet shop. Why is this? I believe it’s partly because, rather than having to wait for a digest or separate email, today’s group members can chat back and forth in real time. In other words, people today tend to act (and post) before they think, getting instant attention and ego gratification. Back then, there was a short delay which helped some people (not all) review their words before hitting the “send” or “enter” button. The speed in which the venom and outright lies are perpetuated, and encouraged, by the members and moderators of several current Facebook groups is mind boggling and light years away from The Judy List. Perhaps it’s the immediacy of today’s social media that makes people act this way. Perhaps it’s the tie-in with smart phones and texting that wasn’t available during The Judy List’s glory years. I do believe that there is a much larger false sense of anonymity in social media today. What many people very obviously do not realize is that everything they do leaves a digital fingerprint – a very traceable one regardless of fake names and profiles. There are certainly other factors involved (probably enough for an extensive thesis), such as the stereotype of the crazed fan sitting in the hazed glare of his computer screen, feverishly typing out his thoughts without a clue that his behavior is, at times, quite criminal. I’m certainly no psychologist but you don’t have to be one to recognize psychotic behavior, and there is definitely much more of it now than ever before.

This behavior, regardless of the severity, has been a constant since those first days of everyone getting online. It factored into the path that The Judy List would end up on. On the flip side, these early digests also show that The Judy List had some mature and thoughtful discussions, especially when compared to the game-ridden childish antics one sees today. As early as October 4, 1996 (the 6th Judy List digest), some good discussion was instigated:

From: Allen R L,xxxxxx@pitt.edu
Subject: Re: Lady in the Dark

Although I love Judy in all of her multifacted forms of
performance, I remain most compelled by the stunning
creative brilliance of A Star Is Born (her brilliance, as
well as Hart’s, Cukor’s, Mason’s, etc.) To the list of three
great film moments submitted earlier I would add the scene
in the car after “The Man That Got Away” (and don’t even get
me started on *that* number).

My fascination with the film led me to seek out recordings
of her performance of the part Esther/Vicki on Lux Radio
Theater in ’46, and her other similar performances as well.

Many of these were released on LPs and cassettes in the late
60s and early 70s. I have been unable to find a copy of her
performance of “Lady in the Dark” in ’53, however. According
to my sources, it had 4 musical numbers, none of which were
ever released in any other form. Since I know the show was,
in fact, released on LP I’m sure I could track it down
through a professional service, but if anyone out there has
it I’d be willing to trade whatever I have to offer.

Lastly, I just have to say that I am truly fascinated by
Judy fandom, and would love to hear anyone who is willing to
do so say more about their own devotion to her. That she was
one of the most extraordinary performance artists of the
century is without question. Her talent as a vocalist was
absolute genious. But it always seems to me that those of us
who love her never really separate her singing style from
other elements of her persona. I, personally, remember
watching her MGM movies for the first time on the “late
movies” on television in the early ’70s when I was at the
onset of puberty (this was pre-VCR, and
post-revival-house-cinema). Why in the world would a 10 year
old boy in the era of Watergate (which screwed up my daytime
TV viewing) develop such and attachment to Judy Garland? I
knew nothing, at that point, about her life story, although
it was clear to me that my mother viewed her, Natlie Wood,
Jackie O., and Elizabeth Taylor as the emblematic female
archetypes of her generation, with Judy serving as a kind of
childhood ideal even though she was actually a generation
older than the other women in this category.

Perhaps this is too abstract for the kind of conversation
people want to have here, but I thought I’d just put it out
there as bait.

Seeing Judy Garland live were unforgettable experiences.
Describing them for the fans who didn’t have that
opportunity (how I envy your youth, but I guess being my age
has it’s obvious advantages!) is always a challenge. Some of
my memories are in Jim Johnson’s Database in “Wayne’s Page”.
There were a group of us who would be on the alert when Judy
would possibly be making appearances on the West Coast, and
calls would be made. Oh, those phone bills! Wish we had
Emails in those days!! It was relatively easy in those days
to meet and talk with Judy after her shows or TV
appearances, at least compared to trying to meet celebrities
in the ’90s. Sometimes she was in the mood to talk,
sometimes she wasn’t, but when she was…wow…she couldn’t
have been sweeter. As dramatic and exciting as she was on
stage, she was short. I’m only 5’7″, and I had to look down
at Judy (physically). In 1967, the San Francisco Film
Festival did a tribute to Judy. “Judy knows about our
tribute, but couldn’t fit it in her concert schedule,” the
host said. But when I mentioned it to Judy, she said, “They
didn’t even tell me about it!”, so there you are!
______________________________________

No, I don’t think it’s too “abstract”, and I’ll take the
bait! Hello everyone, by the way. I’m Steve in Syracuse,
New York, and this is my first posting to the listserve.
Like everyone else, I am very excited to have it, to have a
chance to talk to people about Garland, her music and her
movies. I’m particularly interested in her films. At some
point I’d like to start a thread about her her MGM years,
her costars, her musical numbers, and so on. But that’s for
another time.

Anyway, Allen, in answer to your request for discussion
about what Judy means to her fans–and I am sure there is no
one response, not just among all of us, but even for any
single one of us!–I can’t remember the first time I saw
Judy on film–it was probably in *The Wizard of Oz*, which I
saw in theatres as a child right before it went on TV, and I
just remember it as a scary movie–but my first memory
probably dates before I ever saw her on film, when my aunt
(who wanted to become an actress, ended up being a stage
mother for her five children, all of whom became child
actors in Hollywood, and finally realized her own dream when
she played Mama Rose in a dinner theatre production of
*Gypsy*–which everyone in the family said was perfect type
casting!–but that’s another story) lent me her LPs when she
left college to try NYC. One of them was Judy’s “Alone”
album, and I played it over and over–I cannot recall how
old I was then, maybe 8 or 9. I should say, too, that
everyone in my family were big Judy fans in the 50s; my
parents to this day. My mom and I, in fact, each had to
have our own copies of Judy at Carnegie Hall when I went
away to college! And my dad had his compilation Judy tape
for his car, which he dubbed after borrowing a tape from a
friend where he worked.

What I remember (as an adult, that is) being drawn to about
the songs I liked best about the “Alone” album-“By Myself”
and “Gone with the Wind” in particular–is also what I still
find most compelling when I watch Judy’s films, namely,
their affect–that is, the strong feelings she dramatizes as
a character but also the strong feelings she instills in her
audience: in particular, her sense of longing coupled with
resilience and independence. At least, that is what I still
respond to when I listen to her sing and when I see perform.
I suppose these feelings are probably what underly the
“comeback” motif of her later career; it also defines the
section of *A Star is Born* which I find most compelling:
the section (cut in the short version, so it was not part of
my first response to the film when I saw it on TV or in a LA
revival to commemorate her death) after Norman promises to
arrange a screentest for Esther but is whisked away to a
location shoot; and she struggles to make it on her own,
while “The Man That Got Away” plays on the soundtrack. Wow,
I continue to find that intensely moving in its pathos. A
friend described this section as masochistic, because it
presumably just defers the inevitable reunion of the two
upon Norman’s return, but I think that description misses
the point entirely! My other favorite Judy film is *The
Pirate*, which I love for the same reason: it’s the inverse
of *A Star is Born* in the way it ends on a note of utopian
liberation through show business (“Be a Clown!). I’ve just
listened to the outtakes from this film on the new Rhino CD,
which appear to be fuller orchestrations of the ones on the
laser disc set, and boy, do I wish there that the outtakes
from the version that was originally previewed and then
recut and reshot had survived.

I want to think more about what I have written because it
has given rise to other thoughts about Judy. I am
interested in knowing what kinds of feelings Judy inspires
in the rest of you, whether you are drawn more to her movies
or her records or her concerts, and what was your first
vivid memory of realizing her power as a performer.

Steven C
________________________________________

The Judy List and all the other discussion groups were a new marvel of a tool for spreading information about upcoming Garland related releases and events, like this post from Harris dated October 5, 1996:

All these *should* be commercial-free. All times shown are
Eastern.
_________________________________________

List discussions at this early stage usually consisted of things like favorite songs or performances, performances of Garland songs by other performers, introductions (“Hi! I’m new to the Internet”), discussions on upcoming Garland media releases, what people have in their collections (and what they’re looking for), and some enthusiastic posts about the marvel of being able to communicate in this new format:

This way of communicating is wonderful and fascinating.
Really look forward each to getting the update.. Also
good to see such good and respected friends and pros
like: Mark G, Wayne L and Randy W
contributing. Such nice reading.

[snip]

As a note to Mark Harris….I trust you are saving all
of these marvelous on-going “chats” on disks….they
would look great at some point in a “printed” forum
such as a magazine or published hard copy.

Still waiting for the MGM/Rhino collection to get into
the stores here…so far, have not been able to
locate…..but then again….this is Daytona
Beach…..things do seem to take a back seat to “Spring
Break” and Nascar racing…..

This hasn’t been mentioned….however, in case you are
not aware of it….Judy’s first Capitol release
called….Miss Show Business…..the one which was a
“soundtrack” sort of ….of her first CBS….Ford Star
Jubilee….90 min special has been released on cd by a
company called: Pilz Entertainment, Inc. Catalog No.
449336-2. their phone number is: 1-800-875-3472.
The current title release is somewhat
confusing….because so many collections are
called….”Over The Rainbow”……The title of this is
called: Judy Garland….Over The Rainbow…Golden
Legends Series. It is an exact replica of the
orig….Miss Show Business and the songs are:

[snip]

If you have been looking for a “replacement” and clean
copy….on cd…this is it.

Harris responded that he wasn’t sure if the digests could be archived. Luckily for all, he was able to later zip all of the digests and provide them for download on the site. Jim Johnson, webmaster of the wonderful Judy Garland Database, responded:

Screenshot of “The Judy Garland Database” as it looked in June 1997

From: Jim Johnson,xxxxxxxx@zianet.com
Subject: Archiving

Hi Everyone!

Someone suggested a few days ago that I archive this
list, so if you all want me to, I’ll try it. I’ve been
saving all of ’em, and I’ll try to see what I can do
with an archive on the database this weekend. I assume
this is OK with you, Mark? Let me know if it isn’t.

I thought what I’d do is keep the most recent week’s
worth or so posted as is, then zip ’em or something for
downloading after they get a month or so old. I can’t
do this daily (I just don’t have enough time!), so
it’ll probably happen weekly.

I haven’t joined in the conversation, largely because
you all know me, and you’ve probably heard enough of my
opinions already!! I will just kinda basically stay
out of all this unless specifically asked. I am
reading it, though!

Keep up the good work, Mark! I think you have an
interesting and liveley discussion going on!

Jim Johnson
The Judy Garland Database
_____________________________

On October 15th, Johnson posted the happy news about archiving the List digests:

From: Jim Johnson,xxxxxxxx@zianet.com
Subject: Archives

Hello, everyone!

All back issues of The JUDY List are being archived on
the Judy Garland Database. There is a link to The JUDY
List archive from the contents page on the database.

I also want everyone to know that it is Mark Harris who
is doing all the archiving work. He uploads the files
and maintains the index file! Thanks,
Mark!

Bye for now…
Jim
__________________________________________

When Harris began the List, he was a novice Garfan himself. I think that in later times people assumed he was one of the know-it-alls. These early digests are replete with his asking questions about things that might get him laughed at by today’s snarky “experts.” In one of his first posts he asks: “…I think ‘Maggie May’ was mentioned. Weren’t these some album-less singles released by Capitol in the early 60’s?” Later he asks: “We’ve been talking about some of Judy’s rarer recordings, but I haven’t heard any mention of the singles Judy recorded for Columbia around the time of A Star Is Born. Anyone know anything about them or, even better yet, have recordings of them they’d like to trade?” He’s referencing the 1953 Columbia singles that Judy recorded.

In November 1996, Harris went into a lengthy explanation about how he came up with The Judy List and how he moderated it. Half of what he talks about will be foreign to most of today’s readers because our technology has advanced so much. I thought it would still be of interest here, especially the bit about his starting a Karen Carpenter list at the same time that he started The Judy List:

> First, its time for my periodic “thank you”
> to Mark Harris. Along with my morning coffee,
> the Judylist is a delightful part of my daily
> ritual. I first hooked up to the internet more
> than a year and a half ago. When I found out about
> listservs, I was on the prowl for one devoted to
> Judy. Now my dream has come true and I just want
> Mark to know how much I appreciate his vision and
> work in making the Judylist possible.

Thank you for the praise, but it’s really not
necessary. If it was just ME, there wouldn’t be any
JUDY list to enjoy with your coffee. The real thanks
should go to all the people that send contributions
that keep the list going (I actually started TWO lists
on the same day – the other one was a Carpenters’ list,
and didn’t get any posts on that one for a week even
though there were 25 or so subscribers. I killed it
quick because no one *actively* participated – they
just wanted to watch).

For many years I’ve subscribed to mailing lists,
participated in newsgroup discussions (and FidoNet
echoes long before the Internet even got started), so I
feel it’s just my way of contributing BACK to the
general concept of bringing people of common interests
together for their mutual benefit that I’ve benefitted
from over the years. 🙂

> Second, Mark, you may want to respond
> separately on this. I would love to hear
> 1. how the idea came to you. 2. How you
> learned how to set up a list. 3. How much
> work does this take?

It really is no miracle, what happens is just this….
(big grin)

First off – how the idea came to me. I, too, have been
looking for a JUDY list for years. I asked Jim about it
when I first found the Judy Garland Database, but he
had his hands full with that project already, and
couldn’t commit to even more work. I did remember his
promise to publicize it if I ever got it going, though.
🙂

I operate a BBS (The Illustrated Mac, as if you
couldn’t tell <g>) and I have the capability of
creating as many Internet mail accounts as I want to. I
created one with the user name of “judy”.

I set the mail preferences for that account to FORWARD
all mail to a list of subscribers called “Judy-Ind”,
but have it set so that I have to “approve” the mail
before it’s forwarded. That way the “subscribe me”
messages don’t get sent out. It also facilitates the
moderation of the list, because if there were a post
that isn’t compliant with the rules, I can send it back
with a note saying why it wasn’t “approved” without it
going out to all the subscribers that are on the
“Judy-Ind” list of addresses. Sending out the mail to
the individual subscribers doesn’t take but a second
for each post after I read it and press a key
combination that “approves” it.

For the digest subscribers, I take all the day’s mail
to “judy” and format it for line length (many UNIX
mailreaders only can read 60 characters per line, so I
format it that way) and then cut and paste them all
together in a simple text file. Then I just log on as
“judy” and create a new mail document and copy and
paste the contents of the text file and address it to
the “Judy-Digest” list of addresses. Then it’s just a
simple matter of FTPing that day’s digest and the file
(judylist.htm) that serves as the main web page to the
JGDb every night after I add the link for that day’s
digest to it. The entire process takes 15-30 minutes a
night, depending on how much traffic there is that day.

The hand-formatting also allows me to send out a
uniform-looking document that “reads” easily instead of
having all the individual little formatting quirks that
each of your posts come in with. Hopefully it makes it
easier to respond to the posts, too.

Yes, there is software that’ll do all this
automatically, but the end result isn’t as “pretty”.
Each post retains the individual formatting quirks I
talked about, and that can be difficult to read in a
mailer that doesn’t use the same line length. Plus, the
software that automates mailing lists isn’t free,
either. Right now, the only thing this costs me is my
time. 🙂

I sent this to the list because you’d be surprised how
often I get asked about the logistics of it all, and
hopefully everyone will read this one post and I won’t
have to answer each individual query. 🙂

> Frankly, I think Judy would be interested
> in this, I think of Judy’s look watching Rich
> Little on one of her shows doing James Mason. I
> think somewhere up there she is looking down at
> us with that look on her face saying, “marvelous!”.

I’d like to think so, too. I’d give anything to be able
to give Judy back one centillionth of the pleasure
she’s given me during my life. If my beliefs on the
afterlife end up being the Way It Really Is, I hope to
someday meet Judy, even if I have to wait in line for a
century to do so! 🙂

There are several topics of discussion that get hashed over and over again throughout all social media, groups, boards, and lists to this day (see The Judy Garland Message Board). The ever popular, endless question of what makes Judy Garland a gay icon was addressed on The Judy List early on. As today, Garfans can be quite eloquent and passionate when giving their opinions.

It will probably always be a hot and over-analyzed topic forever, as there’s no definitive answer. The question was first brought up on the List on October 9, 1996:

As long as we’re on the subject of Judy and other great
belters — Edith Piaf of “La Vie en Rose” fame does
come to mind. Small like Judy, sort of a tough life
like Judy (at times at any rate).

Let’s see I’ve been a Judy fan for a while now but only
recently started collecting CDs, want to collect
videos, etc but don’t have the $$$$ right now. (woe is
me)

On to the next subject — Judy as gay icon. This is
actually an area of academic interest to me, a grad
student w/ primary interests in sex, gender and
sexuality in literature and film. My academic
interests and personal interest in Judy has a nice
point of intersection w/ Judy as pop gay icon.

Some folks have even suggested a link between Judy’s
death and the Stonewall Riots (often lauded as the
beginning of the gay rights movement). Judy died June
22, 1969. The Stonewall Riots began June 29, 1969.
(or is that July — i’m quite tired and forgetful at
the moment).

At any rate, Judy, as someone already mentioned, was/is
a gay icon.

Anyone have any ideas on how/why one becomes/continues
to be a gay icon? Why Judy? (why not?)

If folks don’t want to chat about this on the list
please e-mail me directly at jc90026@navix.net.

I was a young pup when she died — about 15 months old
(born March 1968) so don’t have a clear perspective of
1969. ‘Course some folks who were old enough to
remember the year just might not remember 1969…. 😉
And, no I’m not talking about senility. hee hee

> Anyone have any ideas on how/why one
> becomes/continues to be a gay icon?
> Why Judy? (why not?)

Why/how does one become a gay icon? What a great
question, Julie! I don’t know that one could set out to
become an icon of any kind to any audience – I think it
has to be the audience that makes that decision.

I think Judy became one for her always-evident emotion
and indestructable talent. It’s that simple. The
combination of her ability to express her emotions in
her work, while bravely carrying on and keeping a sense
of HOPE at the same time she seems to be in the depths
of despair is irresistable to anyone, especially any
person that has similar life experiences. I hope I’m
not making cliche’d generalities and upsetting anyone
with stereotypes (since I count myself in this
particular population, I speak for myself and my
friends, so it probably fits most of us), but I think
Judy touches a chord in the gay population because,
like Judy, many conduct a lifelong search for love and
acceptance, and often will have a “man that got away”
they can empathize with Judy about.

There’s also the fact that Judy always came across as a
FUN person, and what self-respecting gay man doesn’t
like to have fun?? <grin>

Here’s an even better question: why is Judy such an
icon to gay men, but doesn’t seem to have the same
attraction for lesbians, even with all the rumors and
accountings of her own experiments with other women (I
don’t want to “start” anything by mentioning this –
however the revelations can’t be ignored in this
context)? Why do straight entertainers such as Anne
Murray serve as the “lesbian Judy Garland” and not Judy
herself? Or is it just that all my lesbian friends
aren’t “mainstream”? 🙂

But Judy isn’t, of course, a great talent ONLY to gay
men. Long before I ever knew what my sexuality was, I
loved Judy. I got that love of her from my grandfather
(certainly a straight man) before I turned 10 years old
(I’m talking about an appreciation for her non-Oz
performances – I think EVERY kid and former kid has a
special place in their hearts for Oz). He used to tell
me that he “fell in love with that little girl” at the
beginning of her career, when he saw her perform at the
Oriental theatre in Chicago with her sisters during
their gig with George Jessel. Shortly before he died,
he gave me all his Judy albums (I think I told the list
about my 10″ Girl Crazy album), telling me to “not let
this rock and roll crap change my early love for good
music”, by which, of course, he meant Judy. While I’ve
picked up a love of current popular music (country
music in particular), my love and appreciation for Miss
Garland has only strengthened and deepened through the
years. 🙂

Again some very interesting reading…first off…to
put a little different spin on Steves comments
regarding….Judy at a piano…singing…I Love a
Piano….the “some other lady”….is none other that
jazz great….Anita O’Day….this was a rehearsal held
at Ms O’Day’s home in I think 1969……Also the “Judy
thoughts” were recorded for an impending book on
Judy….for Gerald Frank…..the deal was
shelved…then later published by Frank for his book
called….JUDY…by Harper and Row.

Also…concerning the “Gay Icon” thing…..Mark’s
observation is on the mark…no pun intended….and
yes…Stonewall did start the night of Judy’s
funeral……check out the “new” film of the same
name….”Stonewall”…..it deals with this very
subject…and shows color footage of Judy’s funeral.
However to “limit” Judy as only a “gay icon” is to
short change her artistry…..lot’s of performers were
and are loved by “gay” people . Mark’s thoughts are
valid….and in addition to the on-going hope and
triumph over life’s indignities….she also RESPECTED
her audience…and was fully aware that all people ARE
NOT treated with equality…and she was extremely loyal
to her “gay” fans…without leaving out all others…
she was quite “brave” in dong this at a time when the
subject on sexual prefrence wasn’t even considered.
She also had consiquences, which were not always
positive because of the “gay attachment” to her…for
several years….she and her work were a bit diminished
by the public at large….thinking only of this
association….thankfully, at this late stage….she is
once again being viewed and re-evaluated artistically.
Which is the way it should have been all along. Also
along this line…it was mentioned that she didn’t seem
to connect in the same manner with lesbians….as with
males……as perhaps…Anne Murray……Anne
Murray???????? Well one would never know that
were you to live near me…I have two delightful girls
who live next door…..they are in their 30’s and are
major Judy fans…..posters all over the wall…..and
when I drive into my driveway…..Judy’s voice is
floating out of their house…..and on week-ends when
their girl friends come over for partytime…..Judy is
“pumped” to the max…..even I have to shut my
windows….(due to the loudness of course)

[snip]
_______________________________________

On October 13, 1996, David H chimed in giving the rare heterosexual male opinion:

I first got into Judy Garland via “The Wizard of Oz”,
which has always been my favorite movie since I
was a little kid. Later on, I heard one of her last
recordings; and it kind of intrigued me how she
sounded at that time, as compared with the “Oz”
soundtrack. It didn’t really even sound like the
same person. Anyhow, that’s what got me “hooked”.

I am also heterosexual, and I’m sort of amused by the
whole “gay icon” thing. But I can understand it. I like
some of that traditional gay-icon stuff myself (if you
noticed, I had Mae West and Dietrich on my list of
favorite singers). It has been my impression that the
gay community, in recent years, has gone in more
for singers like Madonna; I thought Judy Garland
was a bit passe. I’m glad to see I’m apparently
wrong on that.

David

While the gay icon discussion was going on, the first rumblings of what would become “controversial” discussions began. The List wasn’t even a month old. There was some debate over comparisons between Judy and Barbra Streisand, as well as an attempt on discussion about both David Shipman’s controversial biography on Judy and the upcoming Gerald Clarke biography (the Clarke book would get its due later). The following October 13, 1996 post brings up Shipman for the first of many times:

Regarding books about Judy: why does everyone vilify
the Shipman biography? I think it is actually quite
good, very informative, particularly about the
bisexuality of various people working in the Freed
unit, a topic that Hollywood has been hush-hush about
for years and years. I know people complain of its
inaccuracies, but sometimes I wonder if that’s what is
really at issue in the negative responses people have
had to the book. In terms of “facts,” the best book I
think is Hugh Frodin’s on the Freed unit, which Da
Capo press has just reissued. Its not on Garland per
se, but she is a topic throughout the book, which is
account of the production of each of the unti’s films.
And if anyone is interested in an informative account
of how an MGM musical was made, look for “The Magic
Factory” by Donald (I think) Knox, an oral history of
the making of “American in Paris.” It’s not about
Judy, but it is about the studio practices in which she
worked. My favorite book on Garland, though, is
probably Haver’s “Making of ‘A Star is Born’.

There would be more debate later about all the biographies and other works on Garland, and quite passionate ones as well.

In his first notice addressing the ongoing bickering (October 19, 1996), Harris clarifies the rules about “flaming” as it was called (and sometimes still is). “Flaming” is, more or less, the act of attacking someone because your opinions differ from theirs. Harris would have a tough time in the future keeping things under control.

In other words, having an opinion about Judy (or any
other performer) is fine. The members of the list
recognize that everyone has differing views. However,
voicing a disparaging comment about someone else’s
opinion, especially one that attaches SUBJECTIVE
analyses of your own (such as “ridiculous”) is what
starts inflammatory discussions.

I truly do not believe that saying that Judy was more
beautiful than Elvis or Marilyn during this period
disparages either of them. It takes nothing away from
either of them. It merely indicates that Judy was MORE
beautiful, and I *did* note that this was my opinion.

Let’s please keep our discussion limited to Judy, not
on each other. Please send responses to this post in
e-mail, not to the mailing list. Thanks!

hello to all..things have sure heated up on the list
recently…i have heard of a judy book called
“Hearbreaker” by John Meyer. Does anybody know what
this book is about ?? Is the same Meyer who wrote the
beautful “After The Holidays” and “God Bless Johnny”
that Judy sang on the TV talk-shows ?? Also, this
Tuesday there should be another CD release on Judy
focusing on some “original cast recordings” from 78 rpm
lps..good night to all !!
mark(xxxxxxxx@msn.com)
________________________________________

[And this post from the next day]

From: RANDY W,xxxxxxx@krames.com
Subject: Thanks to Mark

Hi all,

First a big thank you to Mark for all his work. It has
meant a great deal to me and many other people.

Second, a plea for understanding. I think back to
Judy’s plea at the end of 1963 when she suggested we
all be a little nicer to each other and how much better
the world would be. I just envoke her comments in
order to remind myself that I am human and make
mistakes but that I can always try to be little kinder.

So compassion and understanding all,

Randy
_________________________________________

The List wasn’t even a month old and people were already bickering or posting pleas for everyone to just get along. As of the publication date of this blog post (almost twenty years later) things haven’t changed. Some of the players are the same, some are new, and the forums are different but it’s the same ol’ stuff.

John Meyer’s 1983 book “Heartbreaker” was also mentioned. Most people mentioned that they liked it, a few pointed out that some of it was less than savory, then out of the blue on October 22nd came this response to the post copied above. You can’t say that Garfans aren’t passionate! Years later the same people who (for years) vilified Meyer with nasty comments suddenly kissed his butt when he spoke at a Garland function in New York. Not a surprise, as being extremely two-faced is a major trait of the Garfreaks. They practically wet themselves all over when they’re near anyone who actually knew their idol.

At 10:46 PM 10/21/96 GMT, you wrote:
>> i have heard of a judy book called “Hearbreaker”
>> by John Meyer. Does anybody know what this book is
>> about ?? Is the same Meyer who wrote the beautful
>> “After The Holidays” and “God Bless Johnny” that
>> Judy sang on the TV talk-shows ?

The book is a piece of tabloid trash and a disgrace to
Judy’s memory. One of the lowest points of the book
indicated that Judy hadn’t bathed in days and wanted to
clean up before she had sex with Mr. Meyer. Classic
kiss n tell. Mr. Meyer was an opportunist, not unlike
Mark Herron who had little success after Judy and used
her for every buck he could make. Thank god very few
people care these days about such tawdry reminisces of
her life and that her music now is the magnetic focus.
_______________________________________

There is something, a kind of phenomenon, that I began to notice in those early Internet days. The strange ownership issues that people have. I don’t know if it’s just Garfans or if other fan bases are the same, but early on people were already claiming ownership of things. I had never seen this behavior before. I found out later that it goes back decades before I ever came on the scene. It’s a fascinating topic.

Colorization by Carly Jade Dugan of “OhMyGarland”

For example, and this goes on today, people who digitally alter photographs and claim ownership. Garfans tend to think that if they digitally alter a photo in some way they suddenly have a copyright claim. They don’t. If that were the case, then someone could take their “new” image, alter the hue and saturation, then claim it as their own. Then someone else could take that “newer” image, alter the hue and saturation, then claim it as their own. And on and on. People do this all the time and then cry “That’s MY photo.” They get insanely mad if someone shares that photo and doesn’t give them credit. This brand of Garfreaks practically have nervous breakdowns over it. They will waste countless hours hunting down people like dogs and harassing them. They still do today, aided by social media sites like Facebook and Twitter. And for what? It’s such a waste of time and only serves to divide Garfandom even more – and to perpetuate that stereotype of the crazed Garfreak as psycho.

I’ll take a moment and clarify that I DO think it’s right and just that people who create those wonderful colorizations should get all the credit in the world. Those folks do amazing work and I support them 100%. Still, they’d better slap their logo or watermark across the middle of the photo because it’s impossible to avoid the fact that their work might end up on a Facebook wall or Twitter feed with the logo/watermark removed. Right or wrong, there is no way to stop it unless said watermark is ingrained in the image somehow. That’s the truth of today’s social media. People copy, crop, share images all the time. It’s madness to try to control how things are shared, yet people still try – again wasting time on something so futile.

Getting back to 1996, we have this early example of the “I own this because I enhanced it” attitude with some of the first online whining about giving credit:

[snip]
[Note: The “Steve” mentioned here is Steve Jarrett, webmaster of the “Judy Garland – The Live Performances” website, which although still online in 2015 is no longer functioning. Jarrett was an early contributor to the List and would later play a part in the List drama of 2001.]

Just a “note” to “Steve”…..I’ve seen your
webpage…and have enjoyed seeing it…however, some of
the material which is posted on the reviews of the 61
tour…..is this not a compliation done by Randy
Wilson? I know he worked very hard on that…and it
would seem to be apropriate to give him an
acknowledgement. Also The Hirshfeld Charicature which
is used is the one which I cleaned up and scanned and
shared with Chris and Kelly. “Fandom” is a sharing
“thing” and most are pleased to do so…however, giving
a little “credit” once in a while is also a
courtesy…or soon…your “sources” will dry up.

Thanks again Mark for this great service.

Regards
Tom S

———-
____________________________________________

Not all activity on the List was negative or drama-fueled. There were fun things too. In those early years before a lot of people were a part of the list (Harris noted at one point during this first month that the list had grown to a whopping 52 members) – and while the discussions were usually thoughtful, insightful, and anecdotal – there was more humor that you see today. Actual humor that wasn’t derived from endless games and did not come at the expense of others. Here’s something mildly amusing from November 24, 1996:

From: xxxxxxxxxx@aol.com
Subject: Re: JUDY Volume 1 Issue 054

A friend of mine living in Paris just sent me a book on
Hollywood musicals and it was interesting to see the
titles given to Judy’s films over there. What remains
of my high school French is barely adequate but I
probably could have figured out all but a handful of
the following (although the literal translation of some
of the films with Mickey Rooney escapes me at the
moment). I’ll send the translations along tomorrow but
here is the list if you want to attempt it yourself. I
couldn’t find any titles for PIGSKIN PARADE, LISTEN
DARLING, ANDY HARDY MEETS DEBUTANTE, GIRL CRAZY
ZIEGFELD FOLLIES, THE CLOCK, IN THE GOOD OLD SUMMERTIME
or GAY PURR-EE but the rest are there (SUMMER STOCK has
two titles listed below) as well as the first of the
two THAT’S ENTERTAINMENT pictures.

Much like the “why is Judy a gay icon” debate, the question of whether during “The Trolley Song” in Meet Me In St. Louis the male voice in the background says “Hy ya, Judy!” or “Hi ya, Johnny!” began on the List with Harris’ October 25, 1996 post. It’s all pretty silly, but in a fun way. The debate became a running joke for years. In fact, it all started at least as far back as the 1960s. People would debate it over and over, sometimes quite seriously and sometimes in jest.

From: Mark Harris,xx@fctim.interpath.com
Subject: Some Judy Stuff

[snip]

That “Hiya Judy” in the middle of The Trolley Song is
still mysterious to me. I’ve heard someone on the set
yelled it at her during filming and it was kept in for
the reasons stated here (the rest of the performance
was so great Minnelli didn’t want to do it again). This
doesn’t seem plausible to me, because on the soundtrack
recording, the voice doesn’t holler the line out, and
Judy would’ve been lip-synching to a pre-recording
anyway. If it wasn’t there in the master, it seems as
if, for whatever reason, it must have been inserted in
post-production, but that doesn’t explain Judy’s facial
reaction to the greeting on film or the use of “Judy”
instead of “Esther”. Anyone got the lowdown on the
*real* story? 🙂

Everybody enjoy your weekend. I’ll be posting
November’s Judy movies on cable & satellite sometime in
the next few days.

> That “Hiya Judy” in the middle of The Trolley Song is
> still mysterious to me.
>

2. I have heard about the “Hiya Judy” in the Trolley
Song and read about it in a number of places, including
an article in *Sight and Sound* a few years ago.
However, when I watched the film again last year it
seemed clear to me that what someone is shouting is
“Hiya Johnny,” since that is the moment when John is
running up to the trolley.

Steve C
_________________________________________

From: Wendy B,xxxxxxx@teleport.com
Subject: Meet Me in St. Louis

Someone posted that they were puzzled by the “Hi,
Judy!” line in “The Trolley Song”. I have always heard
that line as “Hi, Johnny!”- though of course now I’ll
have to go back and watch to make sure. Luckily I have
the video. Anyway, if it’s Johnny, that accounts for
the reason the line is there and Judy’s reaction.
Also, it’s said just as John Truitt is coming up on the
trolley, isn’t it?

Sorry my previous remarks about ST LOUIS contained
incorrect info- I know exactly how annoying that can be
to an expert. I don’t claim to be anywhere close to a
Judy Garland expert, just a Judy Garland lover. Thanks
for the correction!

Wendy B
xxxxxxxx@teleport.com

“We cannot step twice into the same river. When I step
into the river for the second time, neither I nor the
river is ever the same.” -Heraclitus
_________________________________________

The real story about “The Trolley Song”: The line is
not “Hiya, Judy!”, it is “Hiya, Johnny!” John Truett
was chasing the trolley, and the “Hiya, Johnny!” is a
salutation from one of the boys as he comes aboard.
Esther is startled because she realizes her heart-throb
is now onboard, and undoubtedly headed her way.
MGM/UA/Turner/Rhino/whoeverelse (remember the good old
days when companies had just one name?) left out the
dialog track on the soundtrack CD, much to my
disappointment! I think the song seems considerably
less bright and exciting without the sound of all the
murmuring voices in the background.

RE: MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS This is one of my favorite
Judy movies. I just found (and purchased) a complete
set of original lobby cards from this film and needless
to say am ecstatic! As for the “hiya Judy”: this is a
myth that started, I believe in the seventies.
although it may have been published it is not accurate.
I can remember reading about this in RAINBOW REVIEW,
the official Judy Garland Club magazine during the
1970’s. Even the editor thought they’d heard HIYA
JUDY. but, it is NOT accurate. The line that was
spoken here is HIYA JOHNNY, as another person wrote,
occurs just as Mr. Truitt is about to board the
trolley.

Its funny how rumors get started and confuse people.
Another rumor of the 70’s was that the CARNEGIE HALL
album was not recorded in CARNEGIE HALL but was indeed
a Judy concert from the same period in some small town
somewhere. This was not true either but people read it
and started to believe!

By the way: I have a complete set of eight Knowles
1977 WIZARD OF OZ plates for sale at a great price:
$250. The first plate, which shows JUDY, has sold for
as much as $212. Anyone interested, please email me.

Mark, Keep up the good work!
_________________________________________

I had heard sometime back….that the….”Hello
Judy”….was on the “studio Decca masters”…and not
the MGM studio masters…..????? Possibly due to the
“commercial” releases of the records…with Kay
Thompson Chorus…..which were released on 78’s. So
who knows…..

Wonder if “Willie Shakespeare had Judy in mind when he
wrote this:

“…Age Cannot wither her, nor custom stale
Her infinite variety: other women clog
The Appetites they feed, but she makes hungry
Where most she satisfies….”

Prologue – Antony and Cleopatra
Wm. Shakespeare –

“If you feel like singing sing…..tra-la-la …your
cares away….”

Regards..
Tom
_________________________________________

The discussion had become such a tiresome one – and a big running joke – that when it was brought up again in 2001, the responses were akin to this one:

From time to time, Harris would post reminders about the rules of the List even though they were always present on The Judy List website. Before going on to the next chapter in this series I’ll end here with the List rules:

Screenshot of “The Judy List” from November 1999

[November 5, 1996]

I’ll probably post the JUDY list rules once a month as
long as we continue to have new members join us. You
charter members, please bear with me. 🙂

ANNOUNCING:

The JUDY List!

A mailing list for the discussion of all things pertaining
to the World’s Greatest Entertainer – MISS JUDY GARLAND!

The list is MODERATED and will publish all mailings from
list members to the following address:

xxxx@fctim.interpath.com

to the subscribers of the list via e-mail message(s).

There will be two formats for the list:

DIGEST (default) – you’ll receive periodic (usually daily,
around Midnight Eastern Time, until traffic warrants sending
the Digest more often) comprehensive e-mail postings
containing all the mail received at this address since the
last Digest was sent that aren’t subscription requests
(unless the request contains pertinent info/discussion).

INDIVIDUAL – every message received at this address will be
forwarded to you automatically, one at a time.

With the recent release of the MGM Collectors’ Gems on Rhino
and the big Capitol box set due in 1997, this is a wonderful time
to join and catch all the discussion about the new issues.

Here are the JUDY List Rules:

A) Quote Judiciously
There’s seldom a need to quote an entire message in your
response. Please use your editor to remove the parts of a
post you’re responding to that aren’t pertinent to your
reply!

C) “Me Too” Posts
Please – no “me too” posts. You can certainly agree with
someone else, but if all your post contains is those two
words, please wait to include your agreement in with some
more substance.

D) Use Of Profanity
If Judy didn’t use the word in her lyrics, it’s probably not
acceptable here. 🙂

E) Personal Messages Posted to the List
If you want to ask a non-Judy or personal question of an
individual person(s) on the list, or complain about how bad
your day’s been, please use e-mail.

F) Topicality
Sometimes discussions can drift far away from the topic of
JUDY even if the initial discussion was connected to her.
Once Judy’s no longer part of it, please take the discussion
to e-mail with those participating in the off-topic
discussion.

I’ll be publicizing this list in Search Engines, List Lists,
and Jim Johnson will be publicizing it on his EXCELLENT Judy
Garland Database on the World Wide Web. Make sure you pay him
a visit at:

Come join visit us on the Yellow Brick Road. Walk down the
main street of Carvel. Stroll along the promenade at the
1904 World’s Fair with the Smith Family. Have a cocktail on
the patio of the Maine/Lester Malibu home. Lead the cheers
at the footlights of the concert stage! Join us on the JUDY
list!

Mark Harris
The JUDY List Manager
Raleigh, NC

Coming Next: Chapter Four details more developments on “The Judy List” including Scott Schechter’s rise and fall (on the List), the release of the Gerald Clarke biography, input from a few celebrities, and more. Plus, I finally get online again and join the List and later announce the creation of “The Judy Room” website. Stay tuned!