If the people I train with don't tap it's because they don't think I have it and we need to find out who's right for our mutual education. If you're regularly rendering your training partners unconscious you need to find some less retarded ones.

The relative safety of going full-bore with chokes is one of the reasons they're awesome.

P.S. My original point stands, if you teach people they haven't got a choke because it's taking five seconds they'll be letting go of sunk submissions. The rule should be 'ten count and then adjust', not 'five and then surrender'.

P.S. My original point stands, if you teach people they haven't got a choke because it's taking five seconds they'll be letting go of sunk submissions. The rule should be 'ten count and then adjust', not 'five and then surrender'.

Don't do that PSB. You know that 'five and then surrender' is a mischaracterization of my post. :-P

It is obvious that OP was holding on because he was afraid of what would happen when he let go. He knew he didn't have the choke. He knew he couldn't pass HG. So instead, he held on for dear life to stall. He didn't do it intentionally, but rather it was because he was unsure of what else to do.

That is why I advocate the 'count of 5' to people who have been rolling for a relatively short amount of time (<-- I should have clarified that in my post; that is my fault). They will have all the time in the world to sort out the details/adjustments/minutiae of submissions, but it is more important to work on movement, transitions, pressure, etc... than to hold on to something that they are unsure if they have or not.

The 'count of 5' discourages stalls and encourages movement which exposes the beginner/novice to more transitions and control techniques. I see it as a way to encourage position before submission.

You need to hold a sunk blood choke for longer than a five count to put people out, a lot of the time...

To put people out, yes. To make most people tap, no. If the choke isn't sunk deep and it is taking too long, I'd rather they transition to another submission to work on chaining.

But, I also see your point: if you are not applying a choke with the intent of choking them unconscious, you are doing a disservice to your training. If you don't give the technique time to work and let go of the choke too early, then you aren't training with that intent.

My point is that for people who are still relatively new, it is more important to work on transitions than to try to hold on to that choke for a longer amount of time.

It is obvious that OP was holding on because he was afraid of what would happen when he let go. He knew he didn't have the choke. He knew he couldn't pass HG. So instead, he held on for dear life to stall. He didn't do it intentionally, but rather it was because he was unsure of what else to do.

I have quite a bit of sympathy for PSB's approach, because I find a lot of people tapping as I'm starting to apply the submission. This is really fucking annoying, because you just break the grip and start straightening the arm - they tap. You just pop up the chin and start driving round the jawbone to sink in the shime waza and tap tap tap.

Its frustrating because you have to respect the tap and ease off, but at the same time you need to learn to apply the submission to the finish. And having pussies tap out before you even put on the sub ruins your practice finessing the application of the sub and their practice of riding out the sub and trying to escape right up to the wire.

I have quite a bit of sympathy for PSB's approach, because I find a lot of people tapping as I'm starting to apply the submission. This is really fucking annoying, because you just break the grip and start straightening the arm - they tap. You just pop up the chin and start driving round the jawbone to sink in the shime waza and tap tap tap.

When people tap too early, and there isn't an injury at play, it pisses me off too. It is very patronizing to me for the other person to not fight for it. I expect somebody who has been rolling for a while to find the value in fighting to the edge of the submission (again, if there isn't an injury to contend with).

Its frustrating because you have to respect the tap and ease off, but at the same time you need to learn to apply the submission to the finish. And having pussies tap out before you even put on the sub ruins your practice finessing the application of the sub and their practice of riding out the sub and trying to escape right up to the wire.

I love nothing more than to reverse engineer and work through things to figure out what I need to do to finish the submission (or escape if I'm on the other side). That just fascinates me to no end. It is a jigsaw puzzle that I'm trying to solve: sometimes I put in that last piece and finish, and sometimes the other guy flips the board over, shakes it out, and takes my last gummy bear.

And I can completely see what PSB is saying as well. Following through with a submission is of the utmost importance because it isn't really a submission if the other person doesn't tap or (hopefully not) nap/snap.

I just see more value in getting newer people moving rather than holding on for dear life when they don't know what to do to finish it. Let it go and figure out what you did wrong afterwards instead of stalling in that position and losing valuable mat time.

When people tap too early, and there isn't an injury at play, it pisses me off too. It is very patronizing to me for the other person to not fight for it. I expect somebody who has been rolling for a while to find the value in fighting to the edge of the submission (again, if there isn't an injury to contend with).

Yeh its only cropped up since I've been training at rec clubs. It is beyond frustrating because I don't even get to apply the sub and already they're pussying out and tapping or squealing to stop.

In my crueller moments I'm minded to ignore their tap until I've actually got to a position worthy of a tap.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy

I love nothing more than to reverse engineer and work through things to figure out what I need to do to finish the submission (or escape if I'm on the other side). That just fascinates me to no end. It is a jigsaw puzzle that I'm trying to solve: sometimes I put in that last piece and finish, and sometimes the other guy flips the board over, shakes it out, and takes my last gummy bear.

And I can completely see what PSB is saying as well. Following through with a submission is of the utmost importance because it isn't really a submission if the other person doesn't tap or (hopefully not) nap/snap.

I just see more value in getting newer people moving rather than holding on for dear life when they don't know what to do to finish it. Let it go and figure out what you did wrong afterwards instead of stalling in that position and losing valuable mat time.

Yeh I agree if I'm not going to get anywhere I'll just stop and try and regain dominant position to attack again rather than hanging on to and non applied sub for dear life.

I'm not sure I share your love of reverse engineering things, but I see where you're coming from. And learning to proactively defend is a vital skill on the ground, too many people statically defend with no eye to reversing the position and progressing. I was always taught to look to attack, attack, attack in newaza and stall out.