Character Classes

64 posts in this topic

First off, I really like this idea. The bonus act as additional incentives to invest in one build over another, while allowing for flexibility.

I'd like to pick up on the EL threshold question. @thzfunnymzn had an outline that ran:

Quote

Before we start, may I point out that "No class until 10 in a given esper" is....not the best idea for BNW? Some classes gain 10 in a given esper early (vig Sabin), while other classes will take a while to get 10 in a given esper (healer/mage Terra). This hurts the fluidity of builds, forcing the player to aim straight for 10 in one esper to get their bonus before branching out, even though that's rarely a wise idea.

More appropriately, I'd say that

For WoB, 5 in any given esper qualifies as a class

For mid-WoR, ? in any given esper qualifies as a class (somewhere between 5-10)

For end-WoR, 10-12 in a given esper qualifies as a class

What exact formula / mechanic / programming is used is up for debate. I'm giving a rough estimate. You really need class to take into account theratioof any given esper to the total amount of ELs taken. That way, you're not "forced" to take 10 of single esper early, since the game will generally reward you with a class just for taking your natural specialization.

I acknowledge the complexity that gets introduced by narrowing the threshold to include too many combinations, but 5 EL 'chunks' seem like a number that is accessible early, without being too explosive. 5 levels in a given esper could trigger tiered bonuses at increasing level 'chunks'. So associated bonuses at 5/10/15/20(?)/25(?) of a single esper to reward specialization while allowing for hybrid flexibility.

Taking Celes as an example, taking 5 ELs with Ramuh post-Zozo could trigger class to update to Holy Knight, and the first class bonus to trigger. Then, taking 5 Siren levels could leave class unchanged, but give a class bonus. Taking an additional 5 Siren would result in class change to Magic Knight, while retaining the first Holy Knight bonus.

If you wanted to get a little fancier, hybrid builds reaching thresholds for multiple espers could result in synergistic bonuses. Here various 'chunk' combinations could trigger named hybrid classes, or merely bonuses in addition to the individual class bonuses. I'm not sure about the state of available space in the existing data structures as of 1.9, that could be a problem with implementing this kind of mechanic, but these space constraints will become trivial if plans go ahead to eventually expand the rom in 2.0.

Just my two cents. Tossing out ideas.

Edited October 8, 2017 by MobrayName typo correction

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Yeah, I'm starting to think that tiered bonuses would work best for things at this time. With an expanded rom the coders could focus some odd and neat extra bonus titles and benefits on top of that, but tiered bonuses seem like they would be the easiest to test coding wise.

Another thing I've noticed for Shadow and Gau is the lack of ideas for things. With Shadow, one of the possibilities BTB and Synchysi could use is the dog Shadow keeps by him at all times. That is one thing they might be able to use and 'enhance' with whatever bonuses they give. Maybe the dog would be more likely to attack/defend given what EL's Shadow takes, with the odds of the dog being a factor in a battle increasing each tier.

With Gau, you have a similar problem as Shadow, but less to work with for finding solutions to it. Therefore it might help to borrow from other characters in the game here for possible solutions. Think about stealing some things from the other characters. Afterall, Gau's ability is all about mimicing monsters, so why wouldn't he start imitating some of the other party members as he grows? He should not be as useful as Gogo in that regards, but using the bonuses to give him some minor aspects from the other characters (or maybe even other monsters) might make him more usable and useful in some ways. Well, that or just giving him some stat bonuses, or having his rages end after a time, or something else like that. BTB and Synchysi should definitely experiment and play around with that. However, too much of that can easily make him broken beyond belief if not done well, and that is an all too valid concern with his possible title bonuses if they go in that direction.

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Are the Equipable Esper Bonuses and Relics independent from these class bonuses? For instance, if a player gets +25% HP can still equip an Esper or Relic offering the same bonus and have it stack?

As mentioned, I'm not sure how you might tell the game to give someone a certain class, especially if they are doing a 10/10 Hybrid type set up. I really like the idea of a tiered system with these bonuses being applied slowly at Esper Levels of 5-10-15-20 and MAYBE 25 if the player chooses to go that far. This also allows the player the option of grabbing 5-10 levels in several espers to pick up multiple types of bonuses if they want. In looking at some of the bonuses such as "MORPH DELAY IS SHORTER", that isn't really TIERABLE, but it could work for a lot of them.

If this is implemented though, bosses and enemies after Dadaluma really need to be buffed, as these updates have been doing a great job of avoid "loss aversion", aka giving the players new buffs rather than nerfing things which is a lot more enjoyable but the challenge factor of the game will suffer a bit because of it.

Everyone EXCEPT Battlemage I feel is spot on. The problem with Battlemage is Break/Storm casting faster does not at all synergize with a Bismark build. Instead, I'd give Terra either an Inherent Counter or an Inherent Oath Veil for 50% spell proc chance.

Now another thing I realize is with your new Stamina idea, Cover and Counter % improves with Stamina, which means giving Inherent Counter or Cover on a Stamina Build is somewhat counter-intuitive. I'd consider combining the Counter and Cover into Alexander, and giving Valkyrie a boost to ???

Kirin's bonuses are meh when considering that his high Stamina will already give him a high Cover rate and Cure spells on Cyan are garbage. Instead consider Mag+25% to buffs his cure spells and keep Dragon/Eclipse powerful into late game

The Critical Attack is definitely enticing to encourage the player to "Fight" over "Throw", Pre-Emptive Attack rate up is simply Meh

Fenrir without a doubt needs to offer a bonus to Interceptor, such as "Interceptor counters all blocked physical attacks" instead of being it's open separate thing and/or a buff to interceptor damage. Truthfully, giving a Interceptor buff synergizes much better with Phantom than Fenrir, so I'd maybe move the current Phantom Bonus to Fenrir in that case.

You still cannotswitchRages. When you hit "Rage" again, you just trigger the next attack in the Rage you all ready selected.

Green Cherry is still needed to allow switching Rage again.

This bonus allows Gau access to spot healing (Item/Regen) and some buffs/debuffs (HasteX) while Raging.

Berserker: Rage Counterattack. Gau now counterattacks with his actual Rage command, instead of his measly Fight. Still subject to 2/3 and 1/3 odds for the two attacks. Being on the non-stamina Gau helps control the power of this bonus.

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No matter what happens, enemies are due for a buff here anyway. Especially with the cover and counter system implemented, monsters were ALREADY slated for a boost at some point. So adding classes on top of that... you can expect to run into some tougher stuff later on, that's for sure.

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Not likely since the new cover code overwrites most of the monster cover functionality. When I wrote it, I asked BTB if I should preserve it (the functionality is there in vanilla, but unused) and the answer was no.

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I'm looking at suggestions for builds that haven't been talked about yet, although I suppose I should be doing this in the Discord chat if I really wanted to make headway.

Anyway, I'm feeling one of two ways about Gau. The first is a symmetrical set of bonuses, while the second is more unique.

For the symmetrical set, Beastmaster would gain a bonus to monster-specific abilities, any 'Special' attack as well as any other attack that isn't shared by any other character. Berserker would gain a similar bonus to any ability not covered by this. The goal is for roughly half his abilities to be boosted by each set, although it probably would use some more fine-tuning. But in this case, you'd basically be opting for one set of Rages over another, and this would probably lead to, well, Berserker being the better healer, actually, which is weird. Anyway, I suppose the ultimate goal would be for Beastmaster to be good at utility/support with monster skills, while Berserker trucks things dead, but both are kind of lazy bonuses and don't feel fun to me.

Alternately, Beastmaster alters the chances from 66/33 to 60/40, or maybe even 55/45, although I feel like approaching 50/50 is too strong. And then Berserker grants some other kind of flat bonus. Perhaps something for just all "Special" attacks, maybe just a straight damage boost, I'm not sure exactly. If he didn't already have the lowest penalty and fastest command input, I'd say Berserker could reduce those in some fashion, but some kind of just straight power boost would make more sense to me. Your choice would then be between better utility, through normally rare secondary actions being made more common, or simply better trucking ability, through hitting even more really hard than he already does.

Both of these offer a generic "X% boost" that otherwise feels bland, but it's hard to come up with a non-gamebreaking but thematic idea for him given his unique set.

For Shadow, the one listed build already seems to favor attacking, so make his second one focus on throwing. As fast as he already is, I don't think he needs any kind of delay buffs, so perhaps simply a chance to not use the thrown item? Giving a throwing/supporting build better longevity and helping to alleviate the gp drain committing to this build could otherwise lead to. Other than that, it's hard to think of what a throwing build would want that it doesn't already have.

Oh, I know, just turn Throw into Mix!

Edited December 17, 2017 by vonriel

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Just spitballing an idea here, but perhaps instead of linking class bonuses to ELs in a particular Esper, it could be done simply by their regular level and be a Talent, taking a page from the Dota 2 Handbook. Here's an example for "Medusa" in Dota 2.

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Changing character sprites gets complicated, because a lot of stuff is linked to sprite ID. It's definitely possible, because T-edition manages it, but it's definitely more complicated than just changing a character's sprite.

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I'm looking at suggestions for builds that haven't been talked about yet, although I suppose I should be doing this in the Discord chat if I really wanted to make headway.

Anyway, I'm feeling one of two ways about Gau. The first is a symmetrical set of bonuses, while the second is more unique.

For the symmetrical set, Beastmaster would gain a bonus to monster-specific abilities, any 'Special' attack as well as any other attack that isn't shared by any other character. Berserker would gain a similar bonus to any ability not covered by this. The goal is for roughly half his abilities to be boosted by each set, although it probably would use some more fine-tuning. But in this case, you'd basically be opting for one set of Rages over another, and this would probably lead to, well, Berserker being the better healer, actually, which is weird. Anyway, I suppose the ultimate goal would be for Beastmaster to be good at utility/support with monster skills, while Berserker trucks things dead, but both are kind of lazy bonuses and don't feel fun to me.

Alternately, Beastmaster alters the chances from 66/33 to 60/40, or maybe even 55/45, although I feel like approaching 50/50 is too strong. And then Berserker grants some other kind of flat bonus. Perhaps something for just all "Special" attacks, maybe just a straight damage boost, I'm not sure exactly. If he didn't already have the lowest penalty and fastest command input, I'd say Berserker could reduce those in some fashion, but some kind of just straight power boost would make more sense to me. Your choice would then be between better utility, through normally rare secondary actions being made more common, or simply better trucking ability, through hitting even more really hard than he already does.

Both of these offer a generic "X% boost" that otherwise feels bland, but it's hard to come up with a non-gamebreaking but thematic idea for him given his unique set.

For Shadow, the one listed build already seems to favor attacking, so make his second one focus on throwing. As fast as he already is, I don't think he needs any kind of delay buffs, so perhaps simply a chance to not use the thrown item? Giving a throwing/supporting build better longevity and helping to alleviate the gp drain committing to this build could otherwise lead to. Other than that, it's hard to think of what a throwing build would want that it doesn't already have.

Oh, I know, just turn Throw into Mix!

What if Gau's classes messed with his ai? You could reliability have less "no Gau! Not THAT move!" Moments.

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I have a few small ideas I'd like to throw out there since we're still in the "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" phase.

It's cool that Relm can get Interceptor but no sane person would sacrifice Shadow for that, and I also feel like she doesn't have nearly enough use for high Stamina, so what if Starlet Relm got access to Interceptor even if Shadow wasn't dead?

Similarly, I don't think Strago get's enough out of Stamina either, so maybe something like having a higher proc rate on counterattacks with rods? Somebody mentioned having a chance to cast Holy Wind when he covers, that sounded pretty good.

I love the idea of Ifrit Relm being called the Illusionist and her brushes proccing Image in place of their normal procs, and it would probably be the only build I'd ever use for Relm if you put this in.

I think Bismark Terra definitely shouldn't have the Quickcast: Break and Storm, since she barely has reason to use those spells late game to begin with, and DEFINITELY not when she's built for vigor. It'd be a bit much but what if instead she had a chance to auto-Bserk when she Morphs? Terra is an excellent spell-caster even with pure Vigor builds, so this would serve the dual purpose of cranking up her damage for her glass cannon build while also making it more difficult for her to cast powerful damage spells while morphed with that build. For example, I just ran through Kefka's Tower with pure Bismark Terra and she was still hitting 9999 when she was weakness sniping with tier 3 spells.

Another thing that feels like it's a little poorly defined is Terrato Sabin, so why not give it something to exacerbate it's differences with Stray Sabin? I was thinking since one of the main benefits of Stamina over HP for him is that Chakra is stronger, that you could make Terrato Sabin have stronger Mantras and help solidify the HP build's role as a defensive support.

That's pretty much all I've got for now.

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Another thing that feels like it's a little poorly defined is Terrato Sabin

I'll nitpick and say that Terrato Sabin looks like he makes a solid bulky hyb Sabin, as opposed to Golem + Stray which is more "frail". He's got the all-important HP for front-row attacking, he's got beefy Mantra / Golem summons, and he can afford a few Stray ELs to beef up Chakra. Have yet to try it, but I'm personally more attracted to Terrato Sabin as a "support tank" build for Sabin, rather than Stray Sabin.