peeker643 wrote:A lot of people still slob Eli's knob for those kind of late season and playoff runs. I'd put Flacco in that category. And that's good enough and IMO it ain't anything close to Pandora's Box being opened and announcing a bunch of shit birds or mediocrities are now ready to win a Super Bowl.

Rightfully so; the guy has two rings. Flaco wins this one and Lubber can slob his knob all either one of them wants.

Maybe the NFL is becoming the NHL - come playoff time all you need is the hot QB/Goalie?

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Hikohadon wrote:To HooDoo's point, there are many arguments that can be made here.

If Flacco wins, does that make him elite?

Was he elite before he won the SB?

Or is he still just the ordinary Joe that he always was, and does that bolster the concept that you don't need an "elite" QB to win a Ring (even though it obviously helps)?

SB or no SB, I feel that any one of these QB's is better RIGHT NOW than Flacco: Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger, RG3, Luck, Kaepernick, Wilson, Cutler, Newton, Ryan.

Some of those can obviously be argued, but I think it is clear that Flacco isn't a Top 10 QB no matter if he wins the Lombardi or not.

And then you have to wonder how far even the Meh QB's of the league have to jump to become Flaccos.

Obviously I was one that didn't think a Flacco had a chance in hell of winning it all or I wouldn't have made that stupid bet. I haven't decided yet if this would change my view of Flacco or Sam Bradford's chances at winning it all with the right team.

I'm not arguing this. No way. Not with someone that has Cutler, Wilson, Cam, Kaepernick and Eli in his group of elite guys and is arguing Flacco's not at least what they are if not much more than most of those guys.

RIGHT NOW (as you put up there) !!

You go ahead and craft whatever argument you think you need to make to fit your position. I give. Ordinary mopes can win it all because you think Flacco is ordinary and that Nope. Not gonna do it. You and I just need to not talk QBs. Because I think you're absolutely batshit crazy and I have no idea what you see or how you're looking at these guys.

Any guards out there we can talk about.

Ease down, grandpa.

I know that you get crotchety when no one changes your colostomy bag, and it probably doesn't help your mood that you can't understand what anyone's talking about any more.

I stated clearly that some of those names were arguable, but that even if you throw out the ones that YOU didn't like, Flacco probably ain't a Top 10 QB. Nor did I ever state that ANY of those QB's are elite. Just that if I were picking a QB for a one year run at a ring starting now I probably choose almost all those QB's ahead of him (you can throw out Cutler in retrospect) or at the very least it would be a toss up.

peeker643 wrote:A lot of people still slob Eli's knob for those kind of late season and playoff runs. I'd put Flacco in that category. And that's good enough and IMO it ain't anything close to Pandora's Box being opened and announcing a bunch of shit birds or mediocrities are now ready to win a Super Bowl.

Rightfully so; the guy has two rings. Flaco wins this one and Lubber can slob his knob all either one of them wants.

Maybe the NFL is becoming the NHL - come playoff time all you need is the hot QB/Goalie?

You need a good QB to get you to the playoffs and good QB who gets hot in the playoffs. E Manning won one in his 4th year and if you want to make an argument for a 'meh' guy winning one that's your modern day Trent Dilfer story there. He was less than 'meh' for the majority of that season. Much better in '11 but still not Top 5 'elite' and behind guys like Schaub and Stafford.

Flacco has had a better career in terms of numbers and was that Evans drop away last season (and maybe just a guy like Boldin pinning a lobbed throw to his helmet away) from getting there and potentially winning one. And he's been ridiculous in the playoffs which shouldn't surprise given he's pretty damn good as it is.

People are making it out like he's something other than that.

Flacco is easily a Top 10 guy today and a guy like Ryan is right on the edge of it, if not in as well.

ETA- Hiko, if Top 10 is 'elite' then call it what it is. If Eli is 'elite' than Flacco is 'elite'. If you're looking at numbers only and doing so from a perspective of this year then Ryan is 'elite'. If top half of the league but fell off like rock is elite then Cam gets a nod.

Point being, 'elite' is overused, arbitrary and subjective. And rings are sometimes won on whimsical lobs that a receiver pins to his head or throws that are dropped by tight ends in Super Bowl XIII.

So I'm not saying Flacco is 'elite'. I'm saying he's very good and capable of doing what he's done in the last two post seasons consistently.

1. Elites. These are guys that can go anywhere and win. They take the worry of 3rd and 8 out of the game. Brady, Rogers etc.

2. 2nd tier. Guys who make more mistakes then the elites during the course of the year, have longer rough stretches, need a little help with down and distance situations. But can have good stretches and can hang 30 on you. Ryan, Flacco, Shaub.

3. Game Managers

4. Stiffs

The reality is that 3 and 4 are dead in the league, and the ones are extremely hard to come by. And two's, well, you gotta have some things go right.

I look at Flacco this year and in one hand see a guy that beat Indy by throwing deep fades to a receiver that hasn't been all that relevant in the league for a couple seasons, taking advantage of an awful pass defense playing man. Then getting by Denver with a damn near miracle. But I also see a guy making some throws and kinda carrying the hot hand. Can the guy hang 30 on you when things break right? There's your number 2.

This is exactly the kind of exaggerated results-based thinking that's, with all due respect and other such friendly words of don't-take-this-personal-yo-we're-cool-rights, led you to the whacked-out, hyperbolic, grossly oversimplified view of the NFL you have today.

1. Elites. These are guys that can go anywhere and win. They take the worry of 3rd and 8 out of the game. Brady, Rogers etc.

2. 2nd tier. Guys who make more mistakes then the elites during the course of the year, have longer rough stretches, need a little help with down and distance situations. But can have good stretches and can hang 30 on you. Ryan, Flacco, Shaub.

3. Game Managers

4. Stiffs

The reality is that 3 and 4 are dead in the league, and the ones are extremely hard to come by. And two's, well, you gotta have some things go right.

I look at Flacco this year and in one hand see a guy that beat Indy by throwing deep fades to a receiver that hasn't been all that relevant in the league for a couple seasons, taking advantage of an awful pass defense playing man. Then getting by Denver with a damn near miracle. But I also see a guy making some throws and kinda carrying the hot hand. Can the guy hang 30 on you when things break right? There's your number 2.

(Is it possible to make that emoticon, like, 50 times bigger? I would like that.)

The TWO'S gotta have some things go right?

Some things, like...

-Brady getting his first SB win after the F'ing tuck rule?-Ben getting his SB win over the Seahawks by way of the shittiest & shadiliest refereed SB ever?-Ben getting his SB win over the Cards by way of what has to have been the worst first-half ending turnaround for a team in SB history, combined with a miracle catch(?) by Santonio Holmes?-Peyton getting his one and only SB win in a playoffs in which he was the TENTH highest rated passer, riding his hot defense that year, and beating out the NINTH highest rated passer in the playoffs in Rex Grossman?-Eli in 2007 with the fucking head-catch thing?-Eli last year, barely getting into the playoffs, then barely edging out a Game Manager-led 49ers team (<--Speaking of whom, yeah, that was a #3-led team very much in the mix last year), thanks in large part to a muffed punt?

1. Elites. These are guys that can go anywhere and win. They take the worry of 3rd and 8 out of the game. Brady, Rogers etc.

2. 2nd tier. Guys who make more mistakes then the elites during the course of the year, have longer rough stretches, need a little help with down and distance situations. But can have good stretches and can hang 30 on you. Ryan, Flacco, Shaub.

3. Game Managers

4. Stiffs

The reality is that 3 and 4 are dead in the league, and the ones are extremely hard to come by. And two's, well, you gotta have some things go right.

I look at Flacco this year and in one hand see a guy that beat Indy by throwing deep fades to a receiver that hasn't been all that relevant in the league for a couple seasons, taking advantage of an awful pass defense playing man. Then getting by Denver with a damn near miracle. But I also see a guy making some throws and kinda carrying the hot hand. Can the guy hang 30 on you when things break right? There's your number 2.

(Is it possible to make that emoticon, like, 50 times bigger? I would like that.)

The TWO'S gotta have some things go right?

Some things, like...

-Brady getting his first SB win after the F'ing tuck rule?-Ben getting his SB win over the Seahawks by way of the shittiest & shadiliest refereed SB ever?-Ben getting his SB win over the Cards by way of what has to have been the worst first-half ending turnaround for a team in SB history, combined with a miracle catch(?) by Santonio Holmes?-Peyton getting his one and only SB win in a playoffs in which he was the TENTH highest rated passer, riding his hot defense that year, and beating out the NINTH highest rated passer in the playoffs in Rex Grossman?-Eli in 2007 with the fucking head-catch thing?-Eli last year, barely getting into the playoffs, then barely edging out a Game Manager-led 49ers team (<--Speaking of whom, yeah, that was a #3-led team very much in the mix last year), thanks in large part to a muffed punt?

Things like that?!?!?!?!?!

I think it goes without saying, anyone winning a championship needs to have some things go right.

leadpipe wrote:I think it goes without saying, anyone winning a championship needs to have some things go right.

Some, more than others.

OK, yes and yes, but isn't the whole absolutism of your Grand Theory of NFLness effectively based on 1) things couldn't have gone any other way than the way they went in the recent past, 2) the way they went = elite QBs winning SBs, 3) therefore, in the future, the only way things can ever go is SBs being won by elite QBs...? (Yes, I know there are more steps than this, but this feels to me like its core.)

If your theory isn't quite that absolute, it generally feels that way.

Whenever I read your QB takes/sermons, I can't help but think of the schooldayz True or False questions that you automatically know are false, simply by the way they're phrased.

If the people that are championing the elite QB theory change the theory from:

"You need an elite QB to win a Super Bowl"

To

"You need a QB capable of playing at an elite level, who then plays at that elite level in the playoffs to win a Super Bowl"

Are we all good with that? And if that is agreeable, doesn't it make sense that having an elite QB increases the chances of your QB playing at an elite level in the playoffs which increases your chances on a year over year basis?

Mark Sanchez & Matt Cassel were the only two QBs in 2012 with QB ratings lower than Peyton Manning's playoff QB rating during his SB run in 2006.

So no.

And "You need a QB capable of playing at an elite level, who then plays at that elite level in the playoffs to win a Super Bowl, OR an elite QB who doesn't actually play at an elite level, but from a distance that's how we misremember it" isn't exactly the adjustment I'd be looking for. ; )

This is exactly the kind of exaggerated results-based thinking that's, with all due respect and other such friendly words of don't-take-this-personal-yo-we're-cool-rights, led you to the whacked-out, hyperbolic, grossly oversimplified view of the NFL you have today.

NO.

I never said it does and don't think it does myself.

I simply asked a question to see what the responses would be.

AFAIC, there are 3 "elite" QB's in the NFL and the rest are different levels of quality from Really Good on down to Blaine Gabbert.

I don't think you need an "elite" QB to win a SB, but I felt like in today's day and age you needed a better one than Flacco.

If he wins it, what that means will be debated by bored football fans all offseason - hence the Pandora's box.

I frankly don't care what it means (the answer likely lies in the gray where all answers lie), and certainly don't have the energy to debate it, especially seeing the reaction to just asking the questions I knew would come anyway.

Prolly shoulda just let it play out, but like Peeks I was shamelessly trying to drum up conversation.

Hikohadon wrote:If he wins it, what that means will be debated by bored football fans all offseason - hence the Pandora's box.

Yeah, if you didn't notice, I maybe overreacted!

But I can remember last postseason when you were faced with a similar situation--IMO, with a much lesser QB in Alex Smith. After one big 4th Q run and one big 4th Q pass against Nahlens, he's playing like an elite QB, he, being a former #1 overall pick, always had that potential, etc... Alex Smith blows. The 49ers were still a legit contender last year in spite of him.

Going back to the "some things have to go right" thing...

Why couldn't a few more things have gone right for, say, Mark Sanchez and the Jets in 2010? Not too many things have to go differently to overturn a 5pt deficit in the AFC championship game. Would they have been cut in half by GB's buzzsaw in the next game? I would say probably, yes, they would have. But I don't feel certain that that's the case. They played each other earlier that year, and the Jets kept the Packers out of the endzone, but still lost 9-0 after losing the turnover battle 3-0. Would it have really been out of the realm of possibility for the Jets to have pulled off that upset? And gasp(!), won the Superbowl with a game-managery/bad QB?

Hikohadon wrote:If he wins it, what that means will be debated by bored football fans all offseason - hence the Pandora's box.

Yeah, if you didn't notice, I maybe overreacted!

But I can remember last postseason when you were faced with a similar situation--IMO, with a much lesser QB in Alex Smith. After one big 4th Q run and one big 4th Q pass against Nahlens, he's playing like an elite QB, he, being a former #1 overall pick, always had that potential, etc... Alex Smith blows. The 49ers were still a legit contender last year in spite of him.

I recall that and acknowledge that I have embraced cherry picking and oversimplification to support position, position likely taken for article purposes and to bemoan the sissification of the NFL.

I've used several different formulas to try and prove my "theorum", and now have grown weary of the effort. And since I no longer have to pretend like I have any professional acumen, I see no reason to care about the Ultimate QB Equation, at least not to any positional degree.

I've asked many times before, which comes first the SB or being elite?

Now it seems we're on, what exactly is elite? If an elite performance is A, exactly what does winning/losing the game (any game not just SB) do to the perception of that elite performance?

How about some obvious middle ground: in order to make a consistent run at a SB, year in & year out, you need a QB who plays at a high to extremely high level most of the time. So having a QB that can only do such part of the time, or a QB that consistently plays a step below that but plays well requires that he and the team get hot, in the playoffs.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

I'm just extremely happy that you and Hiko don't give a shit, can't invest the time and emotion into this anymore and will be spending the better part of your days doing far more important things than thinking or posting about this stuff.

Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 wrote:WTF difference does it make.....?

Trent Dildofer has won as many as Peyton Manning ...does Rat Fan give a rats ass about Manning's legacy?

WTF if Flacco wins 2....like Pig Ben?....

The enitire argument is bullshit because even if the browns luck into a SB during anyone's lifetime you'll just fucking argue over the chances of winning another one based on who the QB is...

...and it really is time to quit caring

...and someone hold lubber down so I can main line some battery acid into his jugular

peeker643 wrote:I'm just extremely happy that you and Hiko don't give a shit, can't invest the time and emotion into this anymore and will be spending the better part of your days doing far more important things than thinking or posting about this stuff.

Yes, dear.

We do look forward to the continuation of your takes, though, since they're always so well-reasoned.

peeker643 wrote:I'm just extremely happy that you and Hiko don't give a shit, can't invest the time and emotion into this anymore and will be spending the better part of your days doing far more important things than thinking or posting about this stuff.

Yes, dear.

We do look forward to the continuation of your takes, though, since they're always so well-reasoned.

Did I misunderstand?

Maybe your "Don't Give a Shit No More About This or Them" is set to start later this year?

I hope so. That way I can get even more of a QB education before radio silence initiated.

No one here is 'reasoned' or rationale when they disagree with you.

We understand. I apologize for stepping on your skirt and disagreeing Flacco < Cutler and Eli. Sometimes the rest of us can't compete with uber-reasoning like that.

peeker643 wrote:I'm just extremely happy that you and Hiko don't give a shit, can't invest the time and emotion into this anymore and will be spending the better part of your days doing far more important things than thinking or posting about this stuff.

Yes, dear.

We do look forward to the continuation of your takes, though, since they're always so well-reasoned.

Did I misunderstand?

Maybe your "Don't Give a Shit No More About This or Them" is set to start later this year?

I hope so. That way I can get even more of a QB education before radio silence initiated.

No one here is 'reasoned' or rationale when they disagree with you.

We understand. I apologize for stepping on your skirt and disagreeing Flacco < Cutler and Eli. Sometimes the rest of us can't compete with uber-reasoning like that.

Everyone is working with a different definition of elite. And even if there was one, in and around it is a large, somewhat irregular grey area shaped vaguely like John Kruk's remaining testicle.

In my ever changing view, I now define "elite" as a QB you can put on a shit show like the Browns and immediately make them a playoff team, if not Super Bowl Contenders. The slam dunks are Brady, Manning, and Rogers. There are others previously listed that are in the Kruk Area hovering around this area. I think Flacco is one of them. If you put Rogers on these Browns we are in the playoffs next year, but it's much less certain (although possible) with Flacco. The guys in the Kruk Area are LP's level 2 guys. And you can win a SB with those guys with the right team and circumstances and fortuitous breaks.

Brandon Weeden is currently in an area shaded most closely to mauve. This area is shaped vaguely like Don Mossi's ears.

leadpipe wrote:I think it goes without saying, anyone winning a championship needs to have some things go right.

Some, more than others.

OK, yes and yes, but isn't the whole absolutism of your Grand Theory of NFLness effectively based on 1) things couldn't have gone any other way than the way they went in the recent past, 2) the way they went = elite QBs winning SBs, 3) therefore, in the future, the only way things can ever go is SBs being won by elite QBs...? (Yes, I know there are more steps than this, but this feels to me like its core.)

If your theory isn't quite that absolute, it generally feels that way.

Whenever I read your QB takes/sermons, I can't help but think of the schooldayz True or False questions that you automatically know are false, simply by the way they're phrased.

Isn't it about what is LIKELY to happen, rather than what MIGHT happen.

That's the way I look at it anyways. That's the way I assess a team.

Look, been around to long to say I'll never see another stiff or game manager win the thing. But from what I see now and what I see in the past, if you're carrying one of the above you're in deep shit. Not impossible. Highly improbable.

Of the scenarios you listed above, look who wins those games if those things don't happen - Brady twice, Warner, Hasslebeck during a career year.

bac5665 wrote:Can this thread go back to being a Ray Lewis hate fest? That was more fun that watching Peeks and Hiko argue about nothing at all. Or whatever the hell the last 50 post have been about.

How about this then: I'm so sick of the endless "Keep Art Out of the Hall!!!" stuff that I'm anbout to throw my undying support behind his candidacy.

If his asshole son, David, was also dead I'd be actively campaigning for it just out of spite.

I don't give a shit about Art any more and I'm caring even less for the campaign against him which may actually be more annoying and useless than he was.

Not to mention that his induction disaster would be amusing/entertaining.

I don't want Art in, and since Grossi asked I tweeted him as much. And I thought that article that dude wrote about it was really good. But I have to say, I hadn't considered this. If Art gets in they will have to call out the National Guard for the ceremony. My God, what a clusterfuck that would be. I believe the entertainment value might be worth it.

leadpipe wrote:I think it goes without saying, anyone winning a championship needs to have some things go right.

Some, more than others.

OK, yes and yes, but isn't the whole absolutism of your Grand Theory of NFLness effectively based on 1) things couldn't have gone any other way than the way they went in the recent past, 2) the way they went = elite QBs winning SBs, 3) therefore, in the future, the only way things can ever go is SBs being won by elite QBs...? (Yes, I know there are more steps than this, but this feels to me like its core.)

If your theory isn't quite that absolute, it generally feels that way.

Whenever I read your QB takes/sermons, I can't help but think of the schooldayz True or False questions that you automatically know are false, simply by the way they're phrased.

Isn't it about what is LIKELY to happen, rather than what MIGHT happen.

That's the way I look at it anyways. That's the way I assess a team.

Look, been around to long to say I'll never see another stiff or game manager win the thing. But from what I see now and what I see in the past, if you're carrying one of the above you're in deep shit. Not impossible. Highly improbable.

Of the scenarios you listed above, look who wins those games if those things don't happen - Brady twice, Warner, Hasslebeck during a career year.

And isn't the game more QBcentric than ever?

I agree with this LP. The same people that argue that an elite QB doesn't matter becuase Brady hasn't won the burrito in years are the same ones that argue that the Yankees payroll gives them no advantage because they haven't won in some time.

It's the advantage of opportunity. Having Tom Brady or a $240m payroll doesn't guarantee a ring. But it pretty much guarantees that you will be one of the few within stiking distance year in and year out.

Lubber wrote:In the last three seasons, Flacco has thrown 15TDs with only 2 INTs in the playoffs. I guess he got lucky though each year.

That's impressive too. But I do see the valid points people have about him and his many "WTF was that" moments that he seems prone too during the regular season.

That's why I really believe the guy compares almost exactly to Eli. So whatever Eli is, Flacco is in terms of QBing. That's in general. Eli has proven he will not wet himself in the very biggest game of all. He has shown he can throw a ball up for grabs and have it stick to some WRs helmet too

Lubber wrote:Is that seriously the first time you have seen a defensive back take the wrong angle on a pass? Who is to say he picks off the ball even if he is in the correct position? You are assuming a lot there.

No, I don't recall ever having seen a Safety overrun a pop fly then fall down while backing up to catch the pop fly he overran, especially in a situation where your main task is to NOT let any receivers behind you. At the very least that ball should be knocked away.

You will not find anyone outside of Baltimore and - apparently - yourself that doesn't feel that completion was due to a DB error.