And I started thinking. Look at everything that Sony is doing, and cut out everything that they're not succeeding in. You barely have anything left to talk about.I'm not a gamer so this isn't about Playstation, except that objectively Xbox is doing better than the PS3. Just like Nikon and Canon are doing better with cameras, Samsung, LG and Sharp are doing better with TVs, Pioneer and Panasonic are doing better with audio and home theatre, Samsung are doing better with phones, Apple are doing better with laptops, Panasonic are doing better with video cameras, Apple are doing better with personal audio players... Anything else?I'm not saying that some expensive premium brand makes higher quality products than Sony, I'm talking about normal brands both making superior products and selling better than Sony.

Even looking at Sony's previous competitors who have left consumer electronics - Philips has lighting and medical gear, GE has lighting, finance and media, NEC has the commercial sector. What does Sony have? Their media assets were purely to prevent another Betamax disaster, it doesn't seem like much money goes back to Tokyo.

Anyway it's an interesting time for the company with Kaz Hirai, he seems to be doing the right things so far. I just wonder how much he can do with a company that seems to have no point.

Sony, and other leading Japanese TV makers Sharp Corp and Panasonic Corp have been battered by weak demand, fierce competition and a stronger yen that makes exports less competitive.

The three companies expect a combined loss for the year just ended of $21 billion - more than Sony's entire market value, which has slumped by close to a fifth in the past month. Samsung is 10 times more valuable, while Apple, which Sony executives considered buying in the early 1990s, is worth 30 Sony's [sic].

They still make some very good stuff that nobody else can, but they've managed to dilute the shit out of it with a bunch of low end crap.

Howard Stringer was a hopeless CEO. I can't think of a single product released under his tenure that Sony didn't fumble terribly.

Unfortunately they're saddled with the consequences of his misdecisions. Products like the currently-tanking Vita, and a range of utterly uncompetitive Bravias, as well as a reputation for anti-consumer dickery that'll make it hard to rebuild trust.

They still make some very good stuff that nobody else can, but they've managed to dilute the shit out of it with a bunch of low end crap.

Howard Stringer was a hopeless CEO. I can't think of a single product released under his tenure that Sony didn't fumble terribly.

Unfortunately they're saddled with the consequences of his misdecisions. Products like the currently-tanking Vita, and a range of utterly uncompetitive Bravias, as well as a reputation for anti-consumer dickery that'll make it hard to rebuild trust.

I'm no expert on Sony product range but the Nex camera series is amazing, and their Z laptops are some astounding tech in a very small package. They still have some chops, just need to pare back the shit...

I'm no expert on Sony product range but the Nex camera series is amazing, and their Z laptops are some astounding tech in a very small package. They still have some chops, just need to pare back the shit...

It's been a long time since anybody talked about Sony being anything other than an also-ran in either cameras or laptops in my hearing. Maybe they do have good stuff, but their shot reputation makes it virtually impossible to get the word out.

And I started thinking. Look at everything that Sony is doing, and cut out everything that they're not succeeding in. You barely have anything left to talk about.I'm not a gamer so this isn't about Playstation, except that objectively Xbox is doing better than the PS3. Just like Nikon and Canon are doing better with cameras, Samsung, LG and Sharp are doing better with TVs, Pioneer and Panasonic are doing better with audio and home theatre, Samsung are doing better with phones, Apple are doing better with laptops, Panasonic are doing better with video cameras, Apple are doing better with personal audio players... Anything else?I'm not saying that some expensive premium brand makes higher quality products than Sony, I'm talking about normal brands both making superior products and selling better than Sony.

Even looking at Sony's previous competitors who have left consumer electronics - Philips has lighting and medical gear, GE has lighting, finance and media, NEC has the commercial sector. What does Sony have? Their media assets were purely to prevent another Betamax disaster, it doesn't seem like much money goes back to Tokyo.

Anyway it's an interesting time for the company with Kaz Hirai, he seems to be doing the right things so far. I just wonder how much he can do with a company that seems to have no point.

So what is wrong with not being the best? or best selling? Plenty of companies make plenty of money by being neither best nor best selling.

Sony, and other leading Japanese TV makers Sharp Corp and Panasonic Corp have been battered by weak demand, fierce competition and a stronger yen that makes exports less competitive.

The three companies expect a combined loss for the year just ended of $21 billion - more than Sony's entire market value, which has slumped by close to a fifth in the past month. Samsung is 10 times more valuable, while Apple, which Sony executives considered buying in the early 1990s, is worth 30 Sony's [sic].

Back when hardware was all that mattered they were kings, but the more software became the core of modern CE devices the less they stood out..

All the parts were there, pocket computers, consoles, screens, audio sources, cameras...But the software, the glue that combines all these things into a network of synergistic awesomeness and value just wasn't. What they built was somehow less than the sum of its parts...

Imagine for a moment if Sony, not Apple had purchased NeXT in the late 90s and Jobs had pulled a similar leadership coup to his takeover of Apple (impossible I know).What would have that sort of injection of a software midset created with Sony's late 90s hardware portfolio?

Playstation as console computer?IP networked audio and video earlier?Even the stupid minidisc could have been saved by better software.

That's what makes Samsung look even more pathetic - they could have easily done something nice without ripping off Apple completely. If you can't make a phone look half decent on your own, you should really just get out of the business.

"And Samsung is only successful in phones because of their shameless copying of the iPhone ect."If this is the ONLY reason that Samsung is successful, how come Samsung sells more phones than Apple? In the history of business, there have been very few instances of imitators being more successful than the original unless the imitator launched their product very shortly after the real deal. There must be some value-add to Samsung phones that you are not considering.

I'm no expert on Sony product range but the Nex camera series is amazing, and their Z laptops are some astounding tech in a very small package. They still have some chops, just need to pare back the shit...

It's been a long time since anybody talked about Sony being anything other than an also-ran in either cameras or laptops in my hearing. Maybe they do have good stuff, but their shot reputation makes it virtually impossible to get the word out.

They have some good sellers in the P&S market but nothing top-of-the-line in terms of performance. The NEX is very good and a top seller in the category of mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras but is hurt by poor production and inventory control. They are selling a lot of cameras but are having a very hard time supplying lenses for them. I did not buy a NEX camera myself for this reason a real lack of lens selection native for the camera. In the DSLR field they have good APS-C class cameras the new Alpha SLT-77 being a superb camera really top of its class. Of course this is a market dominated by Nikon and Canon. They have to not only have the best cameras but price them significantly lower in price to break out. I hope they can make enough money to stay as a second tier player and not drop out completely. I do not see them taking significant share from Nikon or Canon but I just bought a camera from them and would like them to stay alive. The new Nikon D800 looks to be a great camera for the price and I do not see Sony's rumored full frame being better (except in areas like video and high frame rates) and I doubt it will be enough cheaper to really sell strong against it.

But you edited something to remove one of the examples AFTER I pointed out that both your examples are Samsung products. And then accused me of not knowing the difference between HTC and Samsung. In addition to creating a strawman.

But you edited something to remove one of the examples AFTER I pointed out that both your examples are Samsung products. And then accused me of not knowing the difference between HTC and Samsung. In addition to creating a strawman.

I only added to that post, to add the word one, lets just leave that as a misunderstanding for the sake of the thread.

I saw "Galaxy", but I could be wrong. Ok, and what about the strawmen?

You claimed that touchwiz was iOS repackaged and that touchwiz was the only android UI that swiped left to right (which we have now established is not the case)... I'm presuming you had a point you were building up to.