October 7th Patch...

I am seriously beginning to doubt Anet's ability to balance a game properly.

While some of the changes were needed (thief and mesmer nerfs), some of the changes were most definitely, absolutely, positively NOT needed (mainly ele and guardian nerfs). I mean what the heck!? Ele, one of the most underpowered classes atm, got even more underpowered by making even more of their abilities useless/subpar. The ONE good underwater ability that actually made eles even remotely close to other professions' underwater abilities received a huge nerf. And their revival glyph is useless now....I mean totally and utterly useless. And guardians....don't even get me started on guardians. They reduce the overall damage greatsword can do (arguably our best, and really only good dps melee weapon...hammer is ok, but not nearly as good), and cause the zeal trait line to become even LESS appealing than it already was because of greatsword's symbol having a 100% increase in its CD (the two things zeal focuses on, GS and symbols).

I am REALLY starting to think Anet just changes things on a whim, without regard to what the changes actually entail. They seem to ignore all the problems that the community brings up on the forums, and decides what is best to "fix" (and I say "fix" because they tend to break/nerf more than doing anything else). And while they "fix" these "problems", they continue to ignore much larger, more serious problems that really, really, really need to be addressed. Such as sooooooo many broken traits for all the profs just to name one.

Really starting to lose faith here. I know the game hasn't been out long, but if this patch was any indication of what is to come, I may be quitting GW2 MUCH sooner than I anticipated.

I think they a) are more competent in regards to game balancing than you are and b) they have access to much more data regarding the actual performance of professions. Don't see any problem with the updates.

BTW, Guardian GS nerf is absolutely warranted (and I play Guardian as my main). The GS was just too good. And retaliation was broken. Good that they move towards making it a tactical choice, not a permanent buff.

It's funny because guardians are still seen as one of the most overpowered professions, up alongside mesmers.

Elementalists aren't that far down on the list either, IIRC.

Try playing either one (especially ele) and then go play all the other profs. You'll see what I mean. And Anet still continues to ignore the fact that guardians are the only class that honestly do not have an effective ranged option. Scepter is way to lackluster when compared to everything else in game. Give us a bow for crying out loud.

Eles are only OP at support. Guardians are only OP at support and some at "tanking". Everything else about those two classes is either bad or just "meh". Anyone else saying otherwise doesn't really have a clue or are just bad and lost to one of those two classes in PvP.

---------- Post added 2012-10-08 at 04:46 AM ----------

Originally Posted by mafao

I think they a) are more competent in regards to game balancing than you are and b) they have access to much more data regarding the actual performance of professions.

So I guess the entire guardian community on the official forums.....and I mean ENTIRE (only a few voices here and there in opposition) are all wrong when they say that Anet has fucked over GS and the zeal trait line with this nerf? Yeah...I guess I may not know everything about balancing a game....but I would say Anet doesn't either when that many people are in an uproar about it.

And Anet still continues to ignore the fact that guardians are the only class that honestly do not have an effective ranged option.

This is part of Guardian class design. If you don't like it, roll something else.

Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm

Guardians are only OP at support and some at "tanking". Everything else about those two classes is either bad or just "meh". Anyone else saying otherwise doesn't really have a clue or are just bad and lost to one of those two classes in PvP.

So you want The Guardian to be OP at everything? Guardian offers superb survival, good damage and very good control options. Nothing in the patch changes it, they simply try to fix retaliation.

BTW, Guardian GS nerf is absolutely warranted (and I play Guardian as my main). The GS was just too good. And retaliation was broken. Good that they move towards making it a tactical choice, not a permanent buff.

Retal was laughable at best. It was only good against people who were stupid enough to burn themselves on it. And Anet shouldn't be making changes around noobs like that anyway. Symbol of Wrath could be countered in SOOOO many ways, it's not even funny. Dodge out, back off the guardian, and don't hit him while the retal boon is on....nuff said. I can't help it people were stupid enough to keep standing in it with the guardian and melting their own faces. And in PvE? Please...don't make me laugh. Most mobs don't attack fast enough for the retal to even be remotely effective. And even if they do, that is kind of the point of retal in the first place. GS is all about the damage isn't it? And now they have reduced the amount of time Symbol of Wrath's damage is up, further decreasing GS overall damage, not to mention majorly affecting the symbol traits in the zeal trait line, by only making them effective 50% of the time as what they use to be.

What game are you playing? Because you are WAY off base with your statement.

---------- Post added 2012-10-08 at 04:56 AM ----------

Originally Posted by mafao

This is part of Guardian class design. If you don't like it, roll something else.

So you want The Guardian to be OP at everything? Guardian offers superb survival, good damage and very good control options. Nothing in the patch changes it, they simply try to fix retaliation.

Pretty much everything you said goes against the philosophy that Anet set out with for GW2. They wanted everyone to be able to play any role they wanted, with any class, and still be effective at it. This is simply not the case in the current game. There are profs that are pigeon holed into 1 or 2 play styles while all other forms of play on them are useless or subpar at best. And guardians cannot have superb survival, good damage, and very good control options all at once (like say, oh I don't know, WARRIORS). And no, I don't want the guardian to be OP at everything. I just want it to be more flexible than,"You're a guardian? Ok, go support and keep us alive".

And guardians not having an effective ranged weapon is NOT class design. Once again, this goes against everything Anet said about the game as a whole. EVERYONE else has an effective ranged option, so would it be fair to gimp guardians on ranged, even if it was intended? Hell no. And you're retarded for thinking that it's intended or that it's ok.

Seeing as they have 7-8 year experience with GW1 (A game with over 500 skills) which is amazingly good balanced, I think that they aren't toddlers who have no idea what they are doing.

And yet they completely abandoned their own balancing system. In GW1, they kept PvE and PvP skill changes separate. Where is that in GW2? It's nonexistent at this point....for what reason I don't know. It's like they're TRYING to go backwards with progression instead of forwards. I mean seriously....they're not even taking notes from their previous game. That in and of itself, speaks volumes for Anet's attitude in managing GW2. In other words....not good.

And guardians not having an effective ranged weapon is NOT class design. Once again, this goes against everything Anet said about the game as a whole. EVERYONE else has an effective ranged option, so would it be fair to gimp guardians on ranged, even if it was intended? Hell no. And you're retarded for thinking that it's intended or that it's ok.

Wake up dude.

I don't hav eth etime right now to comment on all of you post, so I will only comment on this part. The guardian's effective ranged option are close/mid-range. There are other profession without effective long-range option (thief and engineer come to mind)

I don't hav eth etime right now to comment on all of you post, so I will only comment on this part. The guardian's effective ranged option are close/mid-range. There are other profession without effective long-range option (thief and engineer come to mind)

And yet their "close/mid range" abilities offer so much more than what guardians do. It's not the range that's the problem either. It's that the ranged abilities that guardian has flat out SUCK compared to every other class. ESPECIALLY in PvP. I will laugh all day long watching a guardian try to do anything other than support at ranged when in any kind of PvP. That is not by design. Rather, it's a lack of competence on Anet's part in providing guardian with an effective ranged tool.

If you keep saying otherwise....well, you're just proving how little you actually know about the profession. How's that lvl 10 guardian coming along for ya?

And yet their "close/mid range" abilities offer so much more than what guardians do. It's not the range that's the problem either. It's that the ranged abilities that guardian has flat out SUCK compared to every other class. ESPECIALLY in PvP. I will laugh all day long watching a guardian try to do anything other than support at ranged when in any kind of PvP. That is not by design. Rather, it's a lack of competence on Anet's part in providing guardian with an effective ranged tool.

If you keep saying otherwise....well, you're just proving how little you actually know about the profession. How's that lvl 10 guardian coming along for ya?

100% agree, they done goofed this patch 4 sure. But the game aint dying so it's np

And yet they completely abandoned their own balancing system. In GW1, they kept PvE and PvP skill changes separate. Where is that in GW2? It's nonexistent at this point....for what reason I don't know. It's like they're TRYING to go backwards with progression instead of forwards. I mean seriously....they're not even taking notes from their previous game. That in and of itself, speaks volumes for Anet's attitude in managing GW2. In other words....not good.

They kept PvP/PvE seperated in GW1 where needed, not every skill had a PvP skill, and they never said they wouldn't do the same for GW2. It's only natural for them to play around with skills and see what needs twitching, this will not end now and will not end in 5 years. But they don't abandon their system, that's just nonsense.

I've fought against good guardians with ranged weapon pretty damn powerful. in my opinion they need to nerf more of the crap they can do. Thiefs crazy ass damage and guardians super defense with also good damage is kinda crazy.

And yet their "close/mid range" abilities offer so much more than what guardians do. It's not the range that's the problem either. It's that the ranged abilities that guardian has flat out SUCK compared to every other class. ESPECIALLY in PvP. I will laugh all day long watching a guardian try to do anything other than support at ranged when in any kind of PvP. That is not by design. Rather, it's a lack of competence on Anet's part in providing guardian with an effective ranged tool.

There are people using scepter in tournament PvP and they seem to do fine. Of course they don't use it as a long-range weapon (that would be stupid of course). I am a bit confused by 'guardian try to do anything other than support at ranged'. Of course guardian can't do much at range aside support, because the class has been designed that way. A guardian is first a and foremost a melee fighter and it has its teleports, immobilises to get into melee range and all the damage mitigation toolkit to survive in the melee range. If you want to play a ranged damage-dealer in PvP, you simply don't play Guardian, as easy as that.

I don't really see why you want Guardian to become something completely different from what it is now? Honestly, the only time I miss a good ranged weapon is in WvW. The rest of the time I jut play melee.

P.S. People, it really seems that most of the forum drama comes from the fact that profession don't do what people think they should do. All profession has some specific design behind it and they work reasonably well within the limitations of this design. So just DEAL WITH IT. Its not constructive. Saying 'Guardian needs a good long range weapon' is only your personal wish, which has no relevance for the game. What you should be saying is 'guardian needs a good long range weapon because of X, Y, Z and therefore every other profession is preferable to the guardian'. Even without good ranged option, Guardians are in a better place PvP-wise than many others.

I've fought against good guardians with ranged weapon pretty damn powerful. in my opinion they need to nerf more of the crap they can do. Thiefs crazy ass damage and guardians super defense with also good damage is kinda crazy.

First of all.....hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahaha.

Secondly, I'll raise your guardian with an OP warrior that can do all of that and more. And yet the warrior has received no nerfs.

---------- Post added 2012-10-08 at 05:30 AM ----------

Originally Posted by mafao

There are people using scepter in tournament PvP and they seem to do fine. Of course they don't use it as a long-range weapon (that would be stupid of course). I am a bit confused by 'guardian try to do anything other than support at ranged'. Of course guardian can't do much at range aside support, because the class has been designed that way. A guardian is first a and foremost a melee fighter and it has its teleports, immobilises to get into melee range and all the damage mitigation toolkit to survive in the melee range. If you want to play a ranged damage-dealer in PvP, you simply don't play Guardian, as easy as that.

I don't really see why you want Guardian to become something completely different from what it is now? Honestly, the only time I miss a good ranged weapon is in WvW. The rest of the time I jut play melee.

You are completely missing the point aren't you? Every class is suppose to have a viable ranged AND melee option. The guardian does not have that viable ranged option. Yes you see people using scepter, even in tournament play....you know why? Because it's the ONLY option they have if they need ranged damage. That does NOT make it good in any way whatsoever. Are you really THAT blind? Or just that ignorant? Or both?

Anet has said from the beginning, every class gets viable ranged and melee. And yet guardian has no viable ranged, especially compared to other profs (and especially in PvP). And yet you come here spouting some nonsense about how that's "intended" or that's the way the class is "designed". No, it's not. It's that Anet fell flat on their faces when developing ranged options for guardians.

You sound just like the fails in PvP who constantly lose to guardians (somehow). You really need to stop talking now.

So I guess the entire guardian community on the official forums.....and I mean ENTIRE (only a few voices here and there in opposition) are all wrong when they say that Anet has fucked over GS and the zeal trait line with this nerf? Yeah...I guess I may not know everything about balancing a game....but I would say Anet doesn't either when that many people are in an uproar about it.

Well yeah, of course are all guardians gonna say that the nerfs are unjustified. Arenanet can balance guardians much better than the guardian (forum) community, I can assure you that.

You are completely missing the point aren't you? Every class is suppose to have a viable ranged AND melee option. The guardian does not have that viable ranged option. Yes you see people using scepter, even in tournament play....you know why? Because it's the ONLY option they have if they need ranged damage. That does NOT make it good in any way whatsoever. Are you really THAT blind? Or just that ignorant? Or both?

Anet has said from the beginning, every class gets viable ranged and melee. And yet guardian has no viable ranged, especially compared to other profs (and especially in PvP). And yet you come here spouting some nonsense about how that's "intended" or that's the way the class is "designed". No, it's not. It's that Anet fell flat on their faces when developing ranged options for guardians.

No, you are missing the point. The Guardian does not need a viable ranged option in PvP, because they have plenty of other viable options. I don't care right now what ANet said (although I agree with you that they seem to dishonour their original promise in this case).

Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm

You sound just like the fails in PvP who constantly lose to guardians (somehow). You really need to stop talking now.

I play Guardian in PvP and I am doing well, thank you. I also would ask you to stop trying to place personal insults (weak as they may be) to every of your posts, this is immature and doesn't help your cause.

---------- Post added 2012-10-08 at 10:42 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Ghostrider

Well yeah, of course are all guardians gonna say that the nerfs are unjustified. Arenanet can balance guardians much better than the guardian (forum) community, I can assure you that.

I am a Guardian and I say that the nerfs are justified Hopefully we will see more Guardian using other weapons options, right now everyone seems to run with GS.

Secondly, I'll raise your guardian with an OP warrior that can do all of that and more. And yet the warrior has received no nerfs.

---------- Post added 2012-10-08 at 05:30 AM ----------

You are completely missing the point aren't you? Every class is suppose to have a viable ranged AND melee option. The guardian does not have that viable ranged option. Yes you see people using scepter, even in tournament play....you know why? Because it's the ONLY option they have if they need ranged damage. That does NOT make it good in any way whatsoever. Are you really THAT blind? Or just that ignorant? Or both?

Anet has said from the beginning, every class gets viable ranged and melee. And yet guardian has no viable ranged, especially compared to other profs (and especially in PvP). And yet you come here spouting some nonsense about how that's "intended" or that's the way the class is "designed". No, it's not. It's that Anet fell flat on their faces when developing ranged options for guardians.

You sound just like the fails in PvP who constantly lose to guardians (somehow). You really need to stop talking now.

Look, you're obviously a very biased guardian player so let me break it down for you:

- Guardians were (and in some ways still are) crazy overpowered in Tpvp

- Warriors (and not even bunker eles or engis) are not anywhere near as powerful as guardians in Tpvp

- Guardians were dominating the Tpvp teams to the point that some were bringing 2, a few even 3 in every team of 5

- Guardians needed the nerf, and Arenanet has been brave and correct to do it - and I play a GS/scepter-shield guardian

- After this nerf, we will still (like all Tpvp teams) still always bring 1 guardian - but at least it will just be 1, and not 2 or 3

I'm sorry, elementalist is not in as bad a place as some people seem to think. It is by the very design, a more complicated class to master than some of the other professions, and I think because of that - some people struggle with it and call it underpowered or my most hated phrase, "not viable". I do not think that the whirlpool nerf was needed, and I don't see why it was done so I'm a bit confused about that one, if anything underwater combat needs to be tweaked upwards in my opinion, not just for ele but for anything and I cannot possibly understand why they thought that ele skill was that much over powered. I do think that glyph of renewal was bugged and expected it to be fixed.

I think it's a bit tough to compare everything to a warrior also, I mean, sometimes I really do hate warriors but rationally speaking I know that elementalist can be competitive if played correctly.... it just seems pretty rare that people really master the class. I mainly do two things, spvp and pve explorables. I frequently have no problem being in top score in spvp or at least close to the top, most classes I can take down 1 on 1, sometimes 2 on 1, not always. PvE explorables I have no real way of gauging my competency and I do feel kinda squishy (I'm also crap at moving out of stuff so my own fault often :P), but I definitely feel like an elementalist is a compliment to a group situation.

Soloing I've never died in my personal story yet and I can solo veterans, and have even solo'ed a champion DE (when exploring lower level areas (60) and it took like 30 minutes but still...) so I feel like I can hold my own too, and I'm using a dual dps/support fire/water build, not the tanking levelling build which basically allows you to take anything to the face and regen (see the elementalist thread if you're looking for that).

I do not understand why some people are so negative about the potential of elementalist... although for the record, yeah.. what the hell is up with the whirlpool nerf I do not know, because underwater we are already pretty weak (but that's not exclusive to us as a class either.)