The 800 Pound Gorilla Everyone Ignores

My only suggestion to a soution is that a grassroots movement for campaign reform and vote verification must begin. This would seem to be an issue
that little folk of all political persuasions could agree on. The little guy/gal needs to be separated from the Republican and Democratic parties.
Both these parties are controlled by monied interests.

You would think so but in my state full of supposed constitutionalists (Idaho) we could not get enough people interested in passing a law to make
the vote verifiable... That just blew my mind considering how many here are so outspoken about adhering to the constitution...

a crime not to vote? Please explain the logic in that. It should be a crime to force someone to do something they dont wish to do or be involved in
something they dont beleive in. Sound a bit like slavery when you say if you dont do what we tell you to do you go to jail.

Why should you vote??
You should vote and vote your conscience even if you have to write in your candidate!
You should do this just in case the shooting starts, a righteous person always has the high ground in mental warfare!
You can truly say that you did try for peace!

Those who make peaceful.... forget it, nobody listens anyway.

The real world doesn't appear to be built for platitude principles. One may as well try to make a rusty mechanism run smoothly be applying a coat of
olive oil.
Collective society simply doesn't know what to do with the concept of peace, it seems.
I think if people do anything, it's going to be because they think it will actually have an effect. I doubt anyone will care if someone speaks up and
says that they made a decision that has the strength of a gnat in the grand scheme of things, for the sake of peace or any other nebulously presented
principle.

You must vote. Forget about the lesser of 2 evils philosophy. That will definitely get you more of the same. If you're a Ron Paul supporter, then
vote Libertarian. If you leanings are to the left, vote green or anything else you like, Will there be fraud to negate your vote? Who knows maybe.
But the more votes that are not to either Republican or Democrat, the harder it will be for TPTB to exercise their fraud.

IMO, they want voter apathy. They would prefer you give up entirely. They want their hypnotized kool-aid drinking minions to be the ones that vote
and no one else. That way they don't have to conduct any fraud, It legitimizes their power. So DON'T give them what they want!! Don't make it
any easier for them. Fight them any way you can and VOTE!!

Originally posted by totallackey
Furthermore, there is no reason to not vote...A vote for one person is a vote against another...You do not like either MSM candidate, then vote for
any of the other choices...

The current crop of people we have in office have done nothing to warrant any sort of consideration when it comes to retaining office. Vote against
all incumbents.

A vote for either democrat or republican is a vote for both, that being the same system, since they are controlled by the same people and/or
corporations. A vote for neither is a vote for both, again, controlled by the same people and/or corporations. As far as being a right to complain if
you vote and not if you don't, BS, the system is closed, finite and controlled, you have the right to STFU these days and that's about as far as it
goes. If the system is not torn down and rebuilt from the ground up, it will be just more of the same, ad nauseum.

We've voted the same way for hundreds of years and so who is to say any of the past presidents were legitimately voted in? Do you think people were
more honest years ago and no voter fraud or miscounting of the votes occurred? You say that people were caught voting fraudulently on film. I'd like
to see that film. It is not a crime to register to vote under a fictitious name, a dead person or a criminal. It is a crime to commit voter fraud but
to do that you have to follow up and actually VOTE. BTW, I think it should be a crime not to vote.

Another lovely reply by a head in the sand voter whose never done a day of research in their life.... Sigh!

And no we have not voted the same way for hundreds of years ballots used to have to be hand counted and publicly verified they were not counted by
computer programs or in secret rooms. Yes there has always been corruption but when things are done out in the open it is extremely difficult to
accomplish thereby nullifying any real effect it would otherwise have. Now it is a breeze and all the sheep bleat don't worry be happy in their blind
faith that the vote count is accurate when in fact it is unverifiable...

You must vote. Forget about the lesser of 2 evils philosophy. That will definitely get you more of the same. If you're a Ron Paul supporter, then
vote Libertarian. If you leanings are to the left, vote green or anything else you like, Will there be fraud to negate your vote? Who knows maybe.
But the more votes that are not to either Republican or Democrat, the harder it will be for TPTB to exercise their fraud.

IMO, they want voter apathy. They would prefer you give up entirely. They want their hypnotized kool-aid drinking minions to be the ones that vote
and no one else. That way they don't have to conduct any fraud, It legitimizes their power. So DON'T give them what they want!! Don't make it
any easier for them. Fight them any way you can and VOTE!!

Wow you go right into the spiel and even admit you have no idea if there is fraud or not. Sorry my friend I guess I am odd man out since I like to
make sure there is no fraud before I participate in any thing as important as voting. I am simply amazed at peoples willingness to just ignore the
obvious like it doesn't matter and continue to blindly participate like some mindless drone hoping for the best but never wanting to verify if they
are wasting their time or not...

The popular vote is easily manipulated and the people honestly have very little to do with the next President. Did you know that 21/50 states don't
even require their Electorates to vote in line with their party's designated candidate? Food for thought.

I don't vote. And I won't vote. I reject the concept that it is my responsibility to vote or that I lose the right to complain if I don't vote. My
only responsibility is to act in accordance with my own conscience, which in my case means refraining from casting a ballot. No one has to agree with
me. No one has to "take me seriously."

All anyone else has to do is act in accordance with their own conscience as well, whatever that means for them. I will not dictate to them what that
is or should be.

Why should you vote??
You should vote and vote your conscience even if you have to write in your candidate!
You should do this just in case the shooting starts, a righteous person always has the high ground in mental warfare!
You can truly say that you did try for peace!

Those who make peaceful.... forget it, nobody listens anyway.

Wow I have to admit I am surprised someone came up with a halfway reasonable point to continue voting. Not that I agree with it but I like to give
credit where it is due. I think that continuing to vote in a fraudulent system gives it the illusion of legitimacy and helps perpetuate the system.

I am not opposed to voting per say but I am opposed to voting in a system that only has the illusion of your vote being counted rather then hard
evidence that it does count.

For me to be willing to endorse a system number one the votes have to be 100% verifiable!
Number two the things that can be voted on must be very limited. The constitution and state constitutions were written to limit what could be voted
on to put a large check on mob rules socialist hell we see today. Most things voted on today have no business even being up for a vote.

edit on 26-8-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)

IMO, everyone should vote, not because it is 100% verifiable and not because you are tacitly approving the legitimacy of the voting system, but
because if fraud is to be committed, then force them to do it on a mass scale. The more they have to do it, the more they will have to cover it up.
The more inconsistencies they will have to ignore or have to explain.

The problem are the kool-aid drinking masses that vote either Republican or Democrat. That is what legitimizes the system. Personally, I would think
it becomes more difficult to commit fraud on a greater and greater scale. Why make it easier for them by not voting.

You must vote. Forget about the lesser of 2 evils philosophy. That will definitely get you more of the same. If you're a Ron Paul supporter, then
vote Libertarian. If you leanings are to the left, vote green or anything else you like, Will there be fraud to negate your vote? Who knows maybe.
But the more votes that are not to either Republican or Democrat, the harder it will be for TPTB to exercise their fraud.

IMO, they want voter apathy. They would prefer you give up entirely. They want their hypnotized kool-aid drinking minions to be the ones that vote
and no one else. That way they don't have to conduct any fraud, It legitimizes their power. So DON'T give them what they want!! Don't make it
any easier for them. Fight them any way you can and VOTE!!

Wow you go right into the spiel and even admit you have no idea if there is fraud or not. Sorry my friend I guess I am odd man out since I like to
make sure there is no fraud before I participate in any thing as important as voting. I am simply amazed at peoples willingness to just ignore the
obvious like it doesn't matter and continue to blindly participate like some mindless drone hoping for the best but never wanting to verify if they
are wasting their time or not...

Well do what you like. If not voting is what you think is best, then more power to you. That is your right.

But do you really think there is any system that is 100% verifiable? I doubt it. My point is that by not voting and leaving it to the sheeple, then
fraud doesn't even have to be perpetrated. Because the sheeple believe in the 2 party system. then TPTB will always get what they want. Why make
it easy for them? But that is only my opinion. I hope you figure out a way to get a 100% verifiable system in place, while having voter apathy.
I'm all for it.

My point is that by not voting and leaving it to the sheeple, then fraud doesn't even have to be perpetrated. Because the sheeple believe in the 2
party system. then TPTB will always get what they want. Why make it easy for them?

This fraud has been going on for so long that they are already expert at it, it is already easy for them. They don't care who you vote for, because
they'll make sure their man will win anyway. It is the one's who do vote who are allowing them to perpetuate this fraud by participating in it.

It would really scupper their fraud if absolutely no-one turned out to vote. It would be difficult for them to mis-count zero votes.

a crime not to vote? Please explain the logic in that. It should be a crime to force someone to do something they dont wish to do or be involved in
something they dont beleive in. Sound a bit like slavery when you say if you dont do what we tell you to do you go to jail.

My point is that by not voting and leaving it to the sheeple, then fraud doesn't even have to be perpetrated. Because the sheeple believe in the 2
party system. then TPTB will always get what they want. Why make it easy for them?

This fraud has been going on for so long that they are already expert at it, it is already easy for them. They don't care who you vote for, because
they'll make sure their man will win anyway. It is the one's who do vote who are allowing them to perpetuate this fraud by participating in it.

It would really scupper their fraud if absolutely no-one turned out to vote. It would be difficult for them to mis-count zero votes.

Well then I guess we can agree to disagree. As long as there are sheeple, there will not be a complete no vote. Honestly, I don't know how expert
they are at perpetrating fraud. If they are that expert, that no evidence will exist that fraud has been perpetrated, or they are so expert that they
can hide all traces, then I would agree with you that voting doesn't matter. But I guess I don't give them that much credit. IMO what TPTB can
actually do is less important than what they can make people believe they can do. They would love for everyone to believe they are ALL POWERFUL.
Personally, I think that is their goal, but they aren't there.

But do what you like and I understand completely why you don't want to participate in the fraudulent system. Hopefully, you can understand why I do.

a crime not to vote? Please explain the logic in that. It should be a crime to force someone to do something they dont wish to do or be involved in
something they dont beleive in. Sound a bit like slavery when you say if you dont do what we tell you to do you go to jail.

It is true however that electronic voting has exacerbated the problem ten-fold, if not more, as it is much easier to do, and carries much less risk. I
wish the majority would take up a campaign calling for major election reforms, and until those demands are met, no one voted. But even if that were to
happen, I wouldn't be surprised to see the numbers come up in the usual fashion, the majority of votes simply fabricated of course.

It has been brought to light, by persons affiliated with designing the machines, that they could be rigged. ANY voting methods that are available for
use today in the USA are fixable. We need a computer based system with open-source code, with built-in counter-measures, along with personal
accountability via surveillance of anyone involved in tabulating the count, etc...There needs to be a system that is either impossible to rig, or a
system that would need the complacency of many, many people to succeed in being rigged. That would be better than what we have now, seeing as at least
someone may blow the whistle.

-------------------------------

You Hit The Nail on The Head JiggyPotamus with what you pointed out in your post and your suggestions.

I was just about to post a reply and Make the Same Suggestions that You have so Eloquently Stated.

The Voting now days should All be Done by Computers and Only Over A Secure And Encrypted Line. Using the exact same type of a set up that the Secure
Encrypted Online Banking System now uses.

The Actual Voting Computer Servers should All be Located on A Secure Military Installation. Fort Knox comes to my mind First, because it is Already A
Very Strongly Guarded Military Fort. That would Save all of The Tax Payers Money, by not having to Store these Secure Voting Servers on a new
location.

All Military and Civilian Personel working on or around these Voting Servers would All Be Watched Constantly 24/7 by Military and Civilian Police
Representatives. That type of an Environment for The Nations Voting Servers would then be Watched and Guarded To Everyone's Satisfaction without
having to Pay for A Third Party to Count the Votes - ie - as Spain was recently mentioned as currently contracted to count votes.

All Qualified Voters would be able to Vote Online on their Computer Over a Secure Banking Grade Encrypted Connection to The Voting Machine Servers
located at Fort Knox - as in the above example. Once a Qualified Voter had Voted, their Vote would be Recorded and That Voter would " Not " be Allowed
to Vote more than One Time on Any Election.

This type of A Secure Voting Process would Eliminate All of The Voter Fraud that we have all witnessed in All of the previous Elections.

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