Negligence Lawsuit Filed Against IBLP

Late yesterday afternoon we received an email from a Texas-based law firm notifying us that a lawsuit had been filed against the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) and its current board members, John Stancil, Anthony Burrus, Gil Bates, Timothy Levendusky, Stephen Paine, and David York. The lawsuit (which we have reviewed in its entirety) was filed by five women who allege they experienced “sexual abuse, sexual harassment and inappropriate/unauthorized touching” while “participants, interns, or employees of IBLP.” Four of the plaintiffs have previously published their accounts here on Recovering Grace.

The lawsuit, which was filed in the Circuit Court for Dupage County (Illinois), alleges that IBLP was negligent over the past several decades by failing to properly address alleged sexual abuse and harassment by IBLP employees and that IBLP failed to properly report known or suspected abuse to the proper authorities. The lawsuit further alleges that IBLP’s conduct was “wilful and wanton” because IBLP demonstrated an “utter indifference to and/or [a] conscious disregard for a substantial risk of harm” to the plaintiffs, and that IBLP and its directors engaged in a civil conspiracy to cover up the allegations.

The lawsuit specifically alleges that IBLP was negligent and allowed unlawful conduct to continue by:

failing to train and/or supervise their staff and management or have appropriate policies and procedures in place to detect and deter sexual abuse, harassment, or inappropriate touching of young female interns, employees, or participants in IBLP programs;

failing to report known allegations of sexual abuse and sexual harassment committed against adult and minor IBLP participants, employees, and interns to the appropriate law enforcement agencies;

conducting a sham investigation once the IBLP Board did eventually conduct an investigation;

concealing allegations of sexual abuse and harassment from law enforcement;

conducting an unreasonable investigation into the allegations of sexual abuse and harassment; and

engaging in careless or negligent supervision of staff, directors, agents, and employees.

The plaintiffs, through Gibbs III’s law firm, allege that Gibbs Jr’s organization had “had no qualification to conduct [the internal] investigation into allegations of sexual abuse and sexual harassment.” Furthermore, it alleges that “the internal investigation and the fee paid resulted in an internal investigation that was pre-ordained and nothing more than a cover-up of the allegations of sexual abuse, sexual harassment, and inappropriate/unauthorized touching that occurred at the Defendant IBLP.”

The lawsuit notes that IBLP is attempting to sell the Oak Brook Headquarters property and is planning to relocate to Texas, and it asks the court to impose a constructive trust on IBLP’s assets, preventing IBLP from spending down their resources until the lawsuit is resolved.

We at Recovering Grace have stated publicly for many months now that our hope and prayer was that Bill Gothard and the IBLP leadership would take responsibility for his/their actions, and that this situation could have been handled in a manner befitting an organization that claims the name of Christ. As it stands now, we hope that this lawsuit indicates the seriousness of the allegations, and we continue to pray that this action will facilitate true repentance and justice that, so far, has not occurred.

The RG Leadership Team

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

Recovering Grace would rather wring their hands over the injuries Gothard has caused over more than three decades rather than do what they should...report Gothard to the police. They fear Gothard's supposed power and would rather stand on the sideline. Shame!

In my opinion, Recovering Grace has failed miserably as an organization by not stepping out and finding an attorney who would force this pervert into a court of law, along with several of his high-ranking staff, past or present, who are liable for not reporting that sexual abuse they knew about. Many of BG's people have quit or gone on to legitimate jobs, but they also should be prosecuted for knowingly covering up and/or not reporting the abuse.

Until Gothard spends some time in prison, I will not be satisfied. Give him a jail cell next to Bill Cosby. Gothard and his entire organization disgusts me.

You understand nothing about the law. Please make your own criminal complaints about 30 year old allegations and take heart that you have done all you can do. You may as well blame the victims for not reporting.

Ladies, I deeply admire you and your courage. I am praying for you and your families and all involved that your hearts will be protected in the months to come. Hear the voice of your King and Heavenly Father ... may it drown out the uproar from those who value a man or an institution over the souls that they were allegedly meant to serve.

You know as well as I do that Mr. Gothard is the culprit here and know one else.. Why is the lawsuit not aimed at him?? The board members were chosen by Mr.G to suit his desires, sorta like "yes men". I wonder if Mr.G is not the one behind some of this lawsuit itself since he was putting an injunction against the current board, from selling any Oak Brook or Hinsdale property?? After all he thinks it still belongs to him and not the board. The only reason to set up the board was so that Mr.G could get out from the actual responsibility IF he was ever caught with his hands in the "cookie jar". I know for a fact that board members have discouraged Mr.G from being alone or counseling with any young ladies just because we all need to abstain from ALL appearances of evil. No wonder so many people struggled with immoral issues themselves while at HQ. The umbrella had massive holes in it. The comment from him was, "I wonder why so many have immoral issues"? The heart is desperately wicked. Mr.G often wanted the lodge burnt the ground that his brother committed fornication with many women in. That property should be sold soon as possible. I have a lot more to say but I will refrain till later. Thank you

BS,You said:" Mr. Gothard is the culprit here and know one else.. Why is the lawsuit not aimed at him??"

"The board members were chosen by Mr.G to suit his desires, sorta like "yes men"."

Over the years, especially since the scandal circa 1980, Gothard did, in fact, select "yes men" to be board members. But, Bill Gothard is not the only culprit here, as you suggest. A "yes man" who looks the other way while sexual abuse is happening is responsible for their actions. Once the documents are subpoenaed and the plaintiffs depose witnesses, I am certain that evidence will strongly show that there was a cover up, as is alleged in the suit and most likely that some or all of the board members were away of Gothard's advances on these girls. That sham of an internal investigation smelled of cover up from the very start- hiring your attorney pal of 30 years to determine if you conducted criminal activity? Never questioning any of the accusers, and then concluding that there was no criminal activity? That's what you do if you want to cover up a crime, not investigate one.So, this board is responsible. They looked the other way for decades and, from all appearances, engaged in a cover up as recently as last year to try to sweep Gothard's behavior under the rug.

Also, Gothard apparently kept the money in the ministry rather than separating out personal funds. (At least he made a big deal about how little he made, how few things he owned.) So he possibly has few personal assets left at this point and the IBLP funds are where the ill-gotten gains went.

Indeed. I don't expect that Gothard has any assets. The small real estate empire owned by the institute was built upon the backs of those who served with little or no compensation. I pray for justice and that the assets are distributed to the victims.

We don't have evidence that the money IS all in the ministry or not, we have no idea where it or paintings, gold or other valuables are. The bookkeeping appears to be shabby.

kevinOctober 22, 2015

The ministry has processed hundreds of millions of dollars over the years. With shabby bookkeeping, it would be relatively easy for someone with malicious intent to squirrel away money and assets. If there is evidence of this, hopefully this will be brought to the light of day during the discovery process that will come about from this litigation.

Having been a victim of sexual abuse (outside of IBLP/ATI), I am encouraged to see legal steps towards justice for the victims...since other scriptural guidelines were ignored or dismissed by IBLP/ATI.

This article does not mention Gothard as a defendant in the case. Is there no way he can be included in the lawsuit or is the statute of limitations the issue?

Strength and blessings to the ladies who are pursuing this - and to the ones who are unable to for their own personal reasons.

I have a feeling that sexual harassment doesn't work as well in a "class action" type suit as something like drug interaction or false advertising, or even discrimination. Not all the young women who worked for IBLP/ATI experienced this kind of harrassment, especially not personally from BG. I would think that the individual facts of each case would need to be demonstrated in court.

A class action suit might work better for the employment law violations, if it can be demonstrated that most people who worked there were not treated in accordance with the law - then everyone who worked there might have a claim to compensation. (You'd never be able to work out exactly how much each individual was actually owed, after all this time. I would think the best anyone could hope for would be some kind of flat rate compensation. But I'm not an attorney.)

This is good/sad news. I have the highest regard for the women seeing this through. Actually, I am surprised that there has not been a suit yet regarding non-wages paid and labor laws broken. Working young people day and night...

becuz they have been convinced they are working for God and showing their love for Him and His work by sacrificing worldly goods. And to experience what it is like to be in a ministry on the mission field.

So it comes to this. After many years of inaction, they are finally being held accountable. How about a class action for unpaid wages? If Oak Brook goes for 100-200 million, they could afford to pay some of the free labor over the years. If I was paid minimum wage, I'm due about $40-60K myself. :-)

I am very glad to see this. My prayers are with the ladies that God will guide them and justice will be done. There has been an injustice and what Gothard and IBLP have done needs to be brought out into the light of day. There needs to be an accounting for what was done, and compensation to those harmed.My hope is that the court honors the request to freeze the assets, so that they can be liquidated and that those harmed by Gothard and IBLP will be compensated for what they have endured.

This could also lead to the discovery of evidence that Gothard acted criminally. Everyone who is paying attention knows that the investigation conducted by Gibbs Jr was a sham. It has been alleged that it was really just a cover up and it smelled that way from the very moment it was announced. Gibbs Jr is not the man you call when you are seeking truth and justice. He is the man you call when you are trying to hide sin.

The discovery process will involve the deposing of witnesses and the subpoena of files, documents and emails. Gothard's acts did not happen in a vacuum and I expect the court will learn a great deal during this process. It would not make sense to bring civil suit against Gothard, as I don't expect he has any assets. But, he deserves to face criminal charges for his actions, and this litigation will likely uncover the evidence needed to bring such charges, assuming there are criminal acts that have occurred within the statute of limitation.Gothard has resigned in shame, but the organization that allowed his behavior and which still teaches his harmful, false teachings continues recruit the unsuspecting. It needs to end and justice needs to be done!

Kevin, well said and ditto. My prayers are with the women and others involved in the lawsuit. Bill is unrepentant and his supporters are blind to the truth. God calls us to live a holy life and when we don't He is standing by when we ask for forgiveness. 1 John 1:9

This lawsuit would indicate there is some ongoing investigation going on that IBLP is running from. I thought IBLP did the investigation, and fired Bill. This suit would indicate IBLP has done something illegal, I wonder what that was. I noticed there are no dates mentioned in the case. They should be suing Bill, but they I guess they can't because of the statue of limitations? Makes me wonder if they after the money since they aren't even naming Bill in the case. Doesn't make sense to me!

It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand how the law works. These women need therapy, medical screenings, etc., and realistically, deserve recompense for their injuries. That's what actual and punitive damages are.

The article clearly states that covering up the abuse, failure to train employees and develop policy, etc., are what the company did that was illegal. Those things are illegal.

I believe statute of limitations applies to criminal proceedings, but not to civil suits. At this point, a civil suit is the best chance of getting some kind of legal acknowledgement of wrongdoing (and compensation/ assistance for the victims).

They could sue Bill Gothard personally, and perhaps they will eventually. But the organization and its board also bear legal liability in this situation, and suing them is the right first step. The board knew for decades that there were issues, and they chose not to act and to continue covering them up.

In the nonprofit world, the board, not the executive director, bears ultimate responsibility for the organization's actions. If they have credible information that the executive director has committed serious wrongdoing, and/or that the organization's policies and structure are leading to abuses, they have legal responsibility to act. The IBLP's "investigation" and dismissal of Bill with no findings of illegal activity is simply too little, too late. And apparently they have spent the last year refusing to discuss reasonable compensation with the victims, so it has come to this.

Vivian, you brought up board members and it made me think that I recall a few stepping down and others filling in. I wonder if the board members who were active during the dates of the incidences would be called back?

perhaps seeing the female victims in the secular world come forward for justice against another Bill for what he did to them in the same time frame gave these women the the courage to come forward with their lawsuit against BG.

Where's BG even at these days? His new website implies some sort of para-IBLP "ministry" existing with the whole attempt at relaunching his image. (though his publicity photo seems far out of date) Outside of the new statements on his webpage, he seems to have disappeared from the public eye entirely.

He has set up a new web site that is totally bizarre, about life purpose power teams. While it doesn't mention his name directly as running it, one of the books he is trying to sell does have his name on it, connecting him to this web site. He never mentions Jesus or God at all. He quotes Acts 17:6 "envious unbelievers" and then states that St. Paul was able to turn the world upside down even though he was repeatedly attacked by others. So evidently, Bill thinks that he is repeatedly attacked like St. Paul and Bill in his mind is just still trying to demonstrate genuine love and change the world and now he wants to do this by setting up a 10 man "power team" that are suppose to be accountable and mediate and record Rhemas. I think he is beginning to brake with any reality here.

Gothard registered a new Illinois Non-Profit Corporation called "Life Purpose Power Teams" in August 2015. Interestingly, the corporate name was originally "Life Purpose Prayer Teams," but at the end up September he changed the name from "Prayer Teams" to "Power Teams."

rob warOctober 22, 2015

IBLP web site use to have a video link to One Accord. I don't see it on there any more, maybe to hide their connection to Bill. But when it was up, I did watch it. He opened with the comment that for every generation, people follow the God they think is "most powerful". It really is a horrific comment and he further stated that people are not following God because they don't see Christians as "very powerful". It's not people following God because He is true, holy, love etc but for power. I would image with this sick thinking that he would attrack people if they saw the word "power" teams instead of "prayer teams". People should follow God because He is God and the famous quote from St. Augustine "our hearts are restless until they rest in thee" is the opposite of following God for power and success. It is apparent that Bill views God in terms of power and success which he has lost now as an 80 year old man. He is one very sick puppy.

It is almost amusing but ultimately sad to see his headline, "A Guarantee of Total Success!" All these years later, his empire laying in dust around his feet, ol' Bill is still trying to sell the same old snake oil.

It is a very sad day when those who claim to represent the Kingdom hide the truth for the advantage they may temporarily gain in sustaining their darkness,their carnality,and civil authorities conduct the great and desperately needed cry for justice.Now where in this process is giving heed to "having no rights"?"Taking up an offence?"Giving a "bad report" against "those established in authority"?NOWHERE."The stonewalling,effective for many years,has collapsed that we may see the terrible extent of the darkness by a testimony that will not be suppressed.May the victims have the courage they need;not just for themselves,but for all who were spiritually,physically,and psychologically abused;may repentance be available before the darkness befalls forever.

I've followed these stories over the past year reading the abuses that have occurred. Finally someone is taking action. I happened to notice that Duggars family fb shows GRACE verse today. I also noticed that Derrick/Jill posted a completely empty street in Guatemala. This in combination with the article about Recovering Grace lawsuit. I can only hope that the legal team will follow the money and that these Christians are not using Central American missions to conceal off shore bank accounts. Very disturbing and confusing things that surround this organization. Could these people be sending messages to those followers via open websites of unsuspecting people Rather strange timing of peculiar things along with very deceptive articles I hope someone is able to find closure to these bizarre practices of 'ministry'

I've tried to follow the different stories about Jill and Derrick's so called mission trip. They presented it as a "long term" field work in an "un-named" location and were commissioned by their Church and then set up a non-profit called Dillard ministries. They also timed it when the news about Josh was braking out. Their Church is a SBC and they have since come out that these two are not qualified to be commissioned missionaries, neither one has any required education to do so. Likewise, Jill and Derrick spent just as much time flying back and forth to attend weddings and family functions. The pictures they posted on the internet showed them with their baby on the beach and a few shots in a local mercado which included Joyanna and one of the Bates girls. They have not accounted for what work missionary or otherwise they did and they stated that they were taking Spanish language classes. The idiots that donated to this shame are now asking for their monies back. That's why people are questioning them and it looks more like a vacation than any real work. It shows that they followed Bill's co-mingling of ministry funds with family use that came out in the first 1980s sex scandal. So we have a couple of immature, know nothings trying to set up something in the name of "ministry" in order to support themselves because they have nothing else in terms of real education and work. The Duggars did a great job raising their kids to be nothing but TV stars, they can't do anything else, there is not education or real life work here. This is the shame of it all and demonstrates the farce in education that IBLP/ATI is and hopefully this law suite and the continued Duggar implosion will bring the whole house down and thanks to reality TV, cameras are now rolling.

Couldn't have said it better. I think those of us who know how missionaries prepare for service in a foreign country, the time and effort involved, appropriate training and education for the specific area, etc., pretty much knew that Jill/Derrick were just going on a big vacation. Yes, bring down that whole miserable house, and I suspect the tentacles reach far and wide, not just the Duggars and the Gothard empire. I'd agree with the person who said Gothard was "one very sick puppy", and I'd add that I'm not sure it's ever been any different. We may be seeing a more extreme version now, but it's always been there, and I'd even say he (and his staff/board) knew exactly what they were doing--fleecing the flock and checkin' out the young women. To say that anybody was ignorant and clueless is laughable.

Thank you for keeping us informed. Bottomline, they (IBLP Board) had ample opportunity to legally and ethically respond to these horrible truths but they failed and left these poor ladies only one option. More power to them and may this harmful institution finally be closed down.

I am horrified and disgusted that, year ago as a homeschooled child, I used this organization's curriculum. My parents also attended Gothard's travelling seminars. As an advocate for abuse against women, I cannot fathom anything worse than the abuse coming from individuals who claim to be "God's people." It is my hope and prayer that those who have done wrong and those who have covered it up are all found and punished. It is also my hope that those who have done wrong realize it, instead of the denial and persecution complex that will no doubt be following.

Thank you so much for what you do for the cause of righteousness. It is my great pleasure to bring your message to a wider audience. About 75,000 people will read the article I just published, which references your post here. Keep doing what you do and God bless you.http://www.inquisitr.com/2505953/duggar-family-homeschool-program-sued-for-sexual-abuse/

I must add to what I have written previously.[sorry].I am ashamed of the Board.Like many,for the reason that I have three beautiful daughters,that should I have been an adherrant to this sick organization of heresy,hypocrasy,and bondage could have been sacrificial lambs on the alter of Gothardism.Now you who supported Bill with the common knowledge of what has been transpiring can and must be responsible for lives impacted,damaged,and suffering because there was Bill's "entity",greater than my daughter's emotions hopes,and needs,and apparently your daughter's.Or maybe they were not your daughters.Or maybe they were not human beings having dignity,and self worth up to your high level.Their naiveness and vulnerability heightens the shame.It apparently was worth it for awhile,to deny cover up,obfuscate.Now angry dads like myself must rightfully castigate the actions for what they always were.It looks to me that behind these beautiful girls suffering wasn't anything worth stopping the momentum.

First, I do not think it is reasonable to connect Dugger family activities to Gothard activities. JB Dugger is a successful politician and reality TV star and his family has its own issues and tactics that they have developed themselves along with many others famous for being famous. That BG is their spiritual mentor is interesting and informative but it does not dictate the tactics of attracting and gaining audiences and supporters, tactics used by Oprah, Trump, Kardashians, Jenners, Rock Stars, super-models etc. ad nauseum. People connecting all these people into one big super-conspiracy go way too far. Do they rely on each other for cover and "counsel", yes they do. Do they do what they do because Bill taught them how? No, the public taught them how by being vulnerable.I do not take much confidence in Gibbs III being lead counsel when there is clearly a daddy issue here, proving who is good and who is evil in that family squabble. It would be like Boz being lawyer against his brother over the Coral Ridge scandal. The lawyer is not to be a "player" in the scandal, but an advocate for the victims. I do not know whether the timing of the suit is too late, but I would feel better if Gibbs III had referred the lead role to another, objective, disconnected lawyer. The Gibbs lawyers have solicited "Christian business" for decades and Gibbs III may have broken with daddy but is still feeding off Christian issues. Gibbs III examining Gibbs Jr. under oath about Jr.'s relationship with Gothard back when III was in the same law firm is highly problematic. So, enjoy the soap operas if that feeds your appetite. But don't assume these will be clean, easy legal issues. The more personal it is, the less clean it will be. Truth will out, but woe to anyone who tries to glorify themselves in the process. If the cases fall due to reasonable statutes of limitations, be ready for the claims that "IBLP has been VINDICATED by the courts!" and "The lawsuits were maliciously ill-founded." If you live by the lawsuit, you will die by the lawsuit. No disrespect intended to the courageous women plaintiffs. Just an honest reflection on the work of lawyers, sinners like me, and those who put their trust in the flesh.

Before I join in with the general endorsement here, I seem to be stuck on I Corinthians 6 and when it applies and when it doesn't apply. Not saying anything against this latest development, because I'm an outsider. I do believe when serious crimes are committed that the authorities need to be involved. Color me agnostic about this current suit. I do heartily approve of those who were abused bravely sharing their testimonies, and this comment should in no way construed to diminish their bravery, and the suffering they endured.

Paul the apostle told them to take the matter to the church FIRST. He did not forbid further action. Furthermore, just as others have said, he is now to be considered as an unbeliever because he has refused the church.

Don, I always enjoy and learn from your comments on both forums we are on. I do not agree here - necessarily. It is total "reading into" here that Daddy and son are in a power struggle or "proving who is good and who is evil in that family squabble". The only person who could state that with authority is someone who knows, very personally, their family.

Like so many fathers and sons in the old testament, I am glad he does not walk in his father's shoes. I do not see him as superman but I do hope that he is doing what is right because it is right. I am sorry their family is torn - know what it is like - but if my father stood with and for so many who have been accused and even proven to be let's just say, nasty men in the name of keeping the church looking squeaky clean, I would be torn from him as well.

I hope time proves that Mr. Gibbs the younger is interested in doing right for the sake of what is just and right .

I feel there is a definite conflict of interest between Gibbs II and III. It should be squeaky clean and not a power struggle or to put it more crassly not a pissing contest. I am glad this is finally playing out, but am sorry that the Gibbses are the ones doing the playing out.

Don, from different interviews that have been given about the Duggars and their relationship with Bill, it appears that they were very close and it appears that Bill may have even encouraged them to take the opportunity to go on TV because Bill would have seen it as a promotion for himself and his teaching. The show was about living out what Bill taught. This also includes the Bates. The shows have generated interest in people living like the Duggars and joining ATI/IBLP. The shows presented a very soft pedaled glamorous idea about big Christian families and home schooling. The problem is the shear hypocrisy of putting oneself on TV in a reality show when you guru Bill tells families not have TVs in the home. I am not sure why you are calling Jim Bob a successful state legislature. He lose his re-election before they began doing reality TV. A one time state legislature is not my definition of successful politician. The shows also generated a lot of money for them where they can afford to hob nob around using private planes to fly their kids to visit the Bates and attend football games. That isn't the usual quiver full lifestyle which is limited income with a big family. The Duggars and the Bates are all about promoting Bill's teaching and we are also beginning to see the negative fruits of an ATI education that doesn't prepare anyone for anything and that is also why the two Duggar girls are trying to continue it with their own shows and shame "ministries". There is no education and ability to work. Jill has a shame midwife certification and now she says she isn't going to use it because she is busy raising her baby. But reality is that it was bogus on-line training that she isn't going to be able to use, baby or not. The shame Dillard ministries where donations to do missionary work was used to fly around and do family wedding is very reminiscent of the use of IBLP funds and planes to fly the Gothard family around for personal use. The Duggars and Bates are Bill's fruit and at least with the Duggars, the fruits doesn't fall far from the tree.

"David Gibbs III, the attorney representing the women, said in an interview the women decided to litigate only after unsuccessful efforts to address the issues with the IBLP board of directors, who are also named in the lawsuit. Gibbs added that his clients did not want to sue, but that the board 'rather stubbornly and in my opinion rather arrogantly basically challenged the girls to bring the case.'”

David Gibbs III, is a personal friend and I am so glad that David has the courage to confront IBLP for their negligence and the damage that they allowed to take place in the lives of so many individuals.

We all need to pray for him and the team that are working diligently to defend the dignity of everyone that was damaged by IBLP leadership.

Julia and Carrie, thank you for balancing my emotional response. All I know of the Gibbs is radio programming designed to attract clients, RG stories and one unimpressive phone conversation when Jeb Bush was trying to save Terri Schiavo. Julia is correct that I know nothing more about the inner-family relationship, but when a lawyer sues his father's client on a highly publicized matter like this, I wonder why a more detached attorney could not be found.

In a case such as this one from ATI/IBLP or like cases from the IFB church, spiritual, emotional, and sexual abuse cases, you need to retain an attorney who 'gets it'. Your average Joe will not understand. "Why didn't you say something? Why did you continue to see this person - even see them alone?"... So many questions that 'outsiders' just do not understand and therefore will not take the victim at their word but rather assign motives to the victim since nothing else makes sense. This is spiritual abuse that works in you to your core making you unable to make the wise, even natural, decisions that should have been made.

That he understands is seen in the case involving Lourdes Torres - Manteufels and Doug Phillips. The wording in that case shows that he does understand and is an advocate. He will not look for false reasons and will advocate for these women. If there is another such attorney, it would be great to have a team.

Being raised in the IFB church (as I believe he was) tells us - he understands.

"Since the filing of the Oct. 20 suit, Gibbs says more women have come forward with abuse allegations. "

It appears that the courage of these 5 women has emboldened more women to come forward. Let's hope that more victims feel encouraged to join in the lawsuit, including recent victims. The culture of turning a blind eye and victim blaming must be brought to an end with a loud voice!

It seems that Gibbs III has filed this suit months after the panel trying to reach Gothard took it to the church. Taking it to the church has not effected repentance. Gibbs is not a minister in the church, so he's only doing what he can do in accord with his training/gifting. It's not like official church representatives haven't been given a chance to have first crack at plying Gothard for repentance. I do remember, though, that John MacArther did a sermon on grace once. In that sermon, he diverted from his usual preaching method to tell a story from his personal experience. He said that, in the early 90's, he received a 16-page letter from a woman who was trying to teach her children under a horrendous yoke of legalism. As a result of being in this "cult" MacArthur called it, she had slashed her wrists 3 times, trying to kill herself. He said he wished he could expound on the 16 pages of suffering that this woman endured but, since time did not permit, suffice to say that her hair length, skirt length, & everything else pertaining to her & her raising of her children had been dictated by this "cult" to the effect that she'd tried to take her own life 3 times. He went on to further decry the mutilation of the gospel by legalism. As soon as I heard that sermon, I thought to myself: "John MacArther sees ATI as one of the gospel's enemies." I only hope he sent a copy of this sermon to Bill Gothard himself at the time, or at least in response to Larne's appeal through RG to the church.

We have not heard a peep back from Bill, Dr. Tim L., or any of the board member who received a copy of the June 24, 2015 "Failure to Repent" letter. Nor have we heard back from any of the Christian leaders or news originazations that also received a copy. A second 8 page letter was sent to Bill & Dr. Tim L. On August 31, 2015, regarding Bill's lies associated with the Duggar family and his latest billgothard.com website. Again there has been no response from either Bill or IBLP. But that was no surprise with Bill's history of covering sin, and IBLP's history of putting their head in the sand.

Just curious, what are Bill's lies about the Duggar family? I've been praying for them to abandon their ties to Gothard and his teaching. Especially for the sake of the daughters.

Larne GabrielOctober 24, 2015

In late May, the week we ended our effort with Bill, we had several phone conversation with him. This was during the time of the initial publication of the Josh Duggar scandal. In two of the conversations Bill stated that the Institute did not have a treatment or therapy program for Josh at Little Rock to deal with his abuse issues and that he just "worked" there. This statement matched Mr. Walker's (project manager of the LRTC) public statements. He further stated in general the Institute did not have a appropriate therapy program. Bill also stated that he was aware of the abuse and also said he told the Duggar family to go the police.

Then in August the publicity surrounding Josh had died down and Bill had his interview with the Daily Mail. Bill proudly told the Daily Mail of the seven steps of treatment Josh was given during his time in Little Rock and how he was healed. Now he was taking full credit for Josh's healing. A couple of days latter the Ashley Madison story broke and we saw how well Bill claim to "successful therapy" worked out for Josh. In reality it was therapy that in May Bill told us Josh never received.

What are Bill's lies that are specifically associated with the Duggar family?? I have been following Recovery Grace posts closely since early June.

Larne GabrielOctober 25, 2015

Sorry for my wordy earlier post. In late May with all the negative publicity Bill was trying to distant himself from Josh’s abuse therapy and stated that none was given or even available thru the Institute. Then in July when the publicity had died down he took full credit in his interview with the Daily Mail and talked about the “seven stresses” and “lust counseling” taught to Josh while at the LRTC and that “whore mongers damaged their endocrine system”.(Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3152889/How-Josh-Duggar-cleansed-sexually-abusing-siblings-carpentry-lust-counselling-one-one-talks-Jesus-s-seven-stresses.html#ixzz3pbwZxh5c)

So he either lied to us in May about the therapy Josh never received or lied to the Daily Mail in July about the Therapy he claims Josh received. The Daily Mail interview backfired on Bill with the Ashley Madison and affair revelations. Which showed that Bill’s treatment was a failure or that he never received any at all. I have no idea what the real truth is but do know that Bill’s story kept changing depending which way the wind was blowing.

It might be he has received legal counsel and was told not to respond.

Sad, that while I went to one seminar in 79, we entered ATI in 2000 being told the "scandal of 80" was minimal and nothing to be concerned about. The Internet was just getting under way. If we had waited a little longer the scandal would have begun trickling for others to see. No more will things being done in secret remain in secret.

DebOctober 26, 2015

How I wish that we had been told of the 1980s scandal. We would have run far away. Instead we attended our first seminar with our church as newlyweds on a large full bus. We attended faithfully for years, until we had children and then attended the Advanced, signing up that week for ATI....breaks my heart that we never heard the truth about this cult. Of course, it was in the papers in Chicago and in California, but not in Ohio.

Don RubottomOctober 28, 2015

In Midland, Texas in about 1980-81, we were told by a Ft. Worth SBC Pastor that the "scandal" was Steve mismanaging money and that it had all been dealt with by Steve's dismissal. Just one more way that partial truths were used to hide the full truth. Like the Clintons: anything that will work is used.

I hope that people who were victims will come out of the woodwork for first hand eyewitness testimony. People who received bad counseling, bad work punishments, whatever is useful. I was never a part of ATI culture, but as a Christian it is very disturbing that this organization received so much power.

I'm glad for the lawsuit and for the ladies. At least it will get things more out into the public. BUT -- in the end it won't change one thing about those who continue to be deceived by Gothardism, and it certainly won't change Gothard. I can hear it now -- "Christians should not sue each other. They are violating scripture." Bill will say, "I have continually ask forgiveness." Gothardites will consider this to be an attack of Satan. As this goes on, the victims will become the bad guys. I suppose it is too much to ask, but I hope and pray that Bill Gothard is forced to come forward and testify in open court -- he will make a fool out of himself for all to see.

David, I'm with you on this. My comeback statement would be "Christians should not put on a legalistic bondage on other Christians---that is a serious violation of Scripture." And there will always be the lemmings that will follow a pied piper over the cliff.

Larne's been the quarterback, Tony & probably others front-linemen, & RG's been the only part of the church on their team. It looks like that makes Gibbs III the end-zone receiver. He has such a short run of it with ball having been carried to him this far; I hope he slams it through. Things have gone that far. IBLP's fumbling (fondling?) would still have them down for the count even if nobody was racking up points against them. The one position (legal) that's left with this being where it is only because that is where the other team let the ball go. But then again, BG was never a team player, & a student is not greater than his master. But even so, at least Team Grace has done a great job trying to work with the board to play ball; if IBLP had been willing to play by Bible rules they wouldn't have set themselves up to lose.

Thanks but please I am no quarterback this is a team effort and I'm just a "clerk typist third class", water boy or more likely the goofy mascot. There are others that should have the credit, starting with all the women who bravely told their stories. Then the founders of RG I can't say enough about them who made this all possible. From the older generation Tony has been tirelessly fighting the battle for 35 years and Bill Wood has been our voice, Don Veinot and his book, the late Dr. Earl Radmacher, to name a few and Gary Smalley has stepped up to the plate. Each one has a part given by and directed by God. Bill and IBLP are like the team that keeps getting pushed back by their penalties. All of this could have been avoided by a simple and honest confession and repentance, or just following the rules. Because of “their penalties” God has stepped up the game and given the ball to someone else. It’s like reading Jeremiah where God keeps giving the sinful Jews a second chance and tells them if you do "this" I will spare you, but they keep sinning and it only get worse for them.

The big lesson in all of this it that we seek and serve our Savior not man and that we treat and love other like we want to be treated. Christianity is really simple, it just hard for sinful man to sometimes get the concept, and that includes me.

Smalley may have stepped up to the plate in confronting Bill, but has he every publicly repudiated this man who helped him sell thousands of books? Has he ever published even a short book on Bill's delusions and false teaching? I don't know the man, but his indecisiveness in the story over decades is unimpressive to an outsider.

rob warOctober 29, 2015

Gary Smalley always seemed to have a complicated relationship with Bill Gothard. I remember in the early 1980's when his earlier books were big hits and circulating around that I was told that he previously worked with Bill Gothard and that God moved him to start his own ministry. What I wasn't told and the truth is that he left due to sex scandal of the ministry which he seemed to be privy to for a long time before 1979. I think that I did read a couple of the earlier hits and I though he seemed to follow in them Bill's lists of reasons and steps and it had that sort of Gothard feel to them. His wikipedia article begins with stating that in 1979, he and his wife Norm started their ministry. What the wikipedia article doesn't state is that he started out with Bill Gothard and worked for him for many years, was a key component in the IBYC years and that he left due to the sex scandal blow up. I think there could be a little more honesty there. It is good that he was part of the final confrontation with Bill Gothard, being from that time period but I also think he could be for publicly forthcoming about he previous ties and relationship with Bill, being that he is in public ministry.

I suppose everyone has seen this by Gothard: http://www.lifepurposepowerteams.org/

The title spread across the page reads: A Guarantee of Total Success!

He then says:There is one activity by which God guarantees success and true prosperity. It is “day and night” meditation on the “Rhemas” that He gives us each morning.

I don't suppose as Bill gets his daily "rhemas" that he has ever received one that actually convicted him of all of the terrible heresy he has taught, or one that has convicted him of the sexual abuse he has practiced. This is the kind of blindness that arises when you invent a thing like a "rhema," but nevertheless have no true knowledge of God in Jesus Christ. HE is the Truth -- not your rhemas.

I am amazed at how faithful God is to expose sin and error for what it is. I am likewise amazed, although not surprised, at how there will always be droves of people who can look it straight in the face and not even blink or break stride from the utter folly in which they have been walking. At some point, the problem is no longer deception and ignorance. It is hardness and self-righteousness.

David,I greatly appreciate your comments and the emphasis on keeping true scriptural theology as the moorings for all ministry,no matter what hype,or spiritual elitism is offered for the bait.Now the board becomes the culprit of sustaining the dread of this bogus,sham deception.Don Rubottom,I also greatly respect your comments,but for you and David comes the anticipation from my side that the board of directors has always made Gothardism the Sacred Cow worth offering up anything for.Souls included.The Sacred Cow,at this time more important than B.G.himself.Get ready to hear lies; like you always heard,but with more desperation.Lies based on a symbiotic dependence on Bill;having a contrived,blatantly false set of heretical assumptions. They are all obviously propped up,brainwashed derived from Bill's condescending efforts to make the organization look more corporately led.But they are dangerous;they will be vicious, dehumanizing these women, girls.Patriarchalism,smoldering beneath the surface;hideously cruel,unable to be compassionate,perhaps willing to lie if it comes to it;these plaintiffs are merely women,you know.Malleable,lesser valued.Gothard's last stand;these men are his subliminal investments.There always was warfare,there will be more.

It contrasts Colson's worldly win at all costs attitude with his complete turnaround in response to the gospel. It is a study in contrasts to read about Colson with the whole trajectory of Gothard's life and his misguided pursuit of "success" after a lifetime of serving his own ego in the name of God in mind.

Karen,thank you so much for your comment.I also appreciate your orthodox perspective,my sympathies are there from the book "Mountain of Silence."And Timothy Ware's book,I think just Eastern Orthodoxy or something like that.But though my affiliation is still protestant,I am not at all ok with it.IBLP crossed over a line when they covered up for Bill.Not only will they want to promote fallen heresies,they themselves hung around the ditch Gothard inherited with his darkness,fell in with moral comprmises,and when they relocate in Big Sandy,will have the same evil set up and now have it in themselves,ready for the public.There's going to be a moral ripping apart of a fabric quite delicately made.Trampling asunder of tapestries carefully woven.

KarenOctober 26, 2015

Thanks for the kind words, DavidP. I understand how seductive the message of being given some secret that makes us somehow more "special" to God than others can be and how far potentially it can make us fall into spiritual delusion. The moment we think we may be immune to something like this is the moment we become vulnerable to it. The cool thing about becoming more deeply acquainted with the early Christian tradition is discovering our forebearers in the faith endured and warned about such temptations as well and gave wise counsel for how to avoid this kind of spiritual illness.

Yes, everything will ultimately be exposed for what it truly is in the full Light of Christ. The strands are quickly unraveling for BG. He reminds me of Adam and Eve in the Garden scrambling with each new web site for more "fig leaves" to cover his nakedness and running away from the true God to hide in vain fantasies. I'm glad the numbers falling for this are dwindling. May those of us who have been made more wise through our encounters with this heresy and the bitter fruit it bears live in the humility and compassion of Christ even for those still trapped in it, such that others may see Christ, be attracted to the real thing, and avoid falling into the same trap that we did.

Yes, and Bill never mentions Jesus or even God. Bill elevates private "rhemas" or what should be called private revelation over and above accepted and closed revelation which is scripture. This is how false teachers get their start which is they have some "new" or hidden or secret revelation that is to reveal the Bible more. There is a big difference between a verse or section of the Bible that has meaning or even some personal insite for one's life and having "new" revelations from the Bible which ends up replacing sound doctrine and teaching.

It's so interesting; I have just been having a conversation about this very thing in regards to a Christian teacher who is much more "main stream" - Beth Moore. The discussion was triggered by this article:

Here's the comment I made on it:I think there is a distinction to be made between God's personal revelation of His will in our immediate vicinity vs. a revelation that is for the whole universal Church. Some people go so far as to deny both of these - they say that the only revelation God makes to us about our own lives is what is written in the Bible and the principles we can logically extract and apply from that. I won't go that far. I think God does sometimes reveal to us His specific desire for us in our personal situation as we talk to Him in prayer, apart from (but never in contradiction to) principles that could be derived from a good exegesis of Scripture. An example would be feeling a call to a particular ministry as opposed to feeling called to a different, equally Biblically valid ministry. And I would even go so far as to say that some people might receive a prophetic revelation about something that's about to happen, if God chooses to give them that information so that they can obey Him and fulfill His purpose in a particular way.

But that is very different from saying you have received a revelation that applies to all Christians, everywhere, as a new teaching - that God has revealed a new universal principle to you that is not found in Scripture. That's where you do have potential for a whole world of trouble.

Hopefully, if someone asked Beth Moore "Do you believe that God's revelations to you carry the same weight as those made to the early Apostles and recorded in Scripture," she would say "no." Hopefully most of her followers would also say no. But our human tendency to blindly follow a popular teacher is such that I think she might do well to do a heart-check herself and then to clarify what she is saying so that she does not lead anyone astray.

For the example in the article, I think it's entirely possible that God is encouraging her to take rest when she can. *FOR HER,* that may mean going to the zoo. Her mistake is in presenting her particular experience as a universal principle that others should adopt. There may even be a good suggestion there that could benefit others, but she comes across as injecting a whole lot of pride and self-importance into her teaching by automatically extrapolating her own personal experiences into universal principles beyond the bounds of Scripture.

Beth Moore's home church is less than five miles from my house. (It was less than one mile before they moved!). I know a whole bunch of people involved in that church, Christians I love and respect. I visited there one Sunday and heard good teaching there (from the pastor, not from her - she doesn't preach). I have no desire to disrespect her ministry; but I think the article probably makes a valid point that she would do well to consider.

rob warOctober 26, 2015

Yes, I think you are correct in your comments and I agree with your views. Private revelations should always be in line with or in submission to public revelation and universal Christian doctrine and teaching. So when people come along and start saying "God showed me this or told me that ..." should always be judged in accord with sound historic Christian doctrine and teaching. People like Bill that usually preface what they are saying with these sorts of statements are trying to give themselves authority they don't have. A clear example of this would be Benny Hinn where he said in one of his meetings that God just revealed to him that the trinity is further split up and Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each further split into 3 more each which makes God to be nine in one, not 3 in one. That is a direct contradiction of trinitarian Christian teaching and people listening to this should have walked out on him. Like you pointed out and what Bill did is that he took his private Rhemas and made them universal rules for all Christians at all time. He read things into verses and used them without checking to see if his "rhemas" were sound or correct and standard interpretation of them. Your points are very well said concerning the other article.

Rob war, where does Bill not mention Jesus or God? In the "private rhemas" that he sends to those who sign up? There are certainly enough mention on the website. Just no mention of him, but I think he knows his reputation is wrecked beyond the ones who've gotten sucked in to him before. Keep on doing the research; the "glass ceiling" has more cracks in it.

rob warOctober 27, 2015

I think what I meant that there is no focus whatsoever on Jesus. Yes, Bill did mention God in the context of sending us "rhemas" but there is no mention of anything about Jesus, who He is and that we are saved by Him. It is a subtle observation and points out how far off he is. Bill's name is deliberately cropped off except on book. Our focus should always be on Christ, nothing more, nothing less.False teaching want us to take our focus off of Christ and who He is.

Larne, Thank-you for making up for my having omitted naming of crucial others; it makes sense that God's team IS a real team. After all, He & BG are 2 totally different entities, despite what we were all tricked into thinking by the Umbrella scheme. I wonder if the board is blaming "rain" for all the penalties they've accrued & that BG accrued by being outside God's coaching.

The organization should be dissolved totally. Bill Gothards sorry apology is indicative of the overall values of the organization. He does not apologize, he blames those he offended. The problems are deep and long standing. It isn't about teaching godly principles, it is about shaming others into obedience and has been since the very start.

I do think it is a shame that the unknowing public will relate this to true Christianity. Much as they do the tv "ministers" and the inquisition. From my point of view, Bill Gothard and any of the organizations he runs or started and the "true" followers of Gothard serve and promote a God and Christ that are different than the God and Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Ask an atheist (or other skeptics) would they believe in God if they ever met a true christian, (yes, they are out there) someone who shows love and respect to others and does not act in sinful ways? Or do they only look for the bad in Christians to use as an excuse not to believe?

I do not want to throw baby out with the bathwater- based on the information provided by recovering grace, it is right that these women receive legal representation in court, and IBLP deserve the scrutiny they are finally receiving. The claims laid out by David Gibbs III against IBLP all appear to be well founded. However, I have some questions about David Gibbs III himself: firstly, is it right for him to take part in this case, even if he seems to have good intentions and wants to separate himself from his past, when it is clear that there is a potential conflict of interest? I say this in light of his past associations with the IBLP and his father's law firm who conducted the first, negligent investigation (he was not just associated with the firm- he was a part of it). Secondly, I question how much he is actually 'opposes all forms of patriarchy', as he claims in the information he provided to the blog 'spiritual sounding board'. He has a history of 'fighting for the unborn' and opposing contraception for young teenage women. Reproductive control has been historically (and continues to be) used in the patriarchal oppression of women- as promoted by Bill Gothard himself. Thirdly, Gibbs III (not his father, Gibbs Jr.) is known for having represented Pastor Charles Phelps, who covered up the rape and impregnation of a 15 year old by a congregation member. He cannot vindicate himself of this by simply choosing to distance himself from his father and his law firm. How can he represent these women on the basis of a sexual abuse cover up, and yet have no transparency about his past in representing people who have done precisely the same thing. I am happy to be challenged on this if anyone has sources that contradict what I have found.

Sophie, Reproductive control is not only found in patriarchy. The Catholic church has held that tenant forever, as have the IFB. Also lawyers do not always get to select or reject their clients, as everyone is entitled to legal counsel. Depending on the circumstances, GIBBS III, could represent such a person as you mentioned, and yet find the client reprehensible. That is why I could never practice law.Also, it seems according to Spiritual Sounding Boards chart comparing the 2 Gibbs, that they are very different persons. I would hate to be judged by my parents' reputations.

Until the 1930's when the Anglican Church approved of artificial contraception, ALL Christian (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) considered artificial contraception sinful. Some of the biggest voices that considered married couples that would refuse to have or limit children were Martin Luther and John Calvin. The Catholic Church has always taught that artificial contraception as sinful and has not changed while other churches, mostly Protestant have followed the Anglican lead. Modern contraception movement was founded by Margaret Sanger who was an atheist, racist and bigot. It has taken over 80 years for most Christians to abandon nearly 2000 years of previous Christian teaching and views. What is left are Catholics, some fundamentalists, Amish and Orthodox Jews.

rob warOctober 26, 2015

Sorry, Martin Luther and Calvin thought couples that would limit children as sinful. Sorry about the confusion.

Don RubottomOctober 28, 2015

Amen. So sad that we have not taught the truth while the patriarchy crowd has abused it. John Paul II's Theology of the Body is a good place to start. God's love is fruitful and fruitfulness (not slavery to a man's sex drive) is what His Children have always been called to in marriage.

This is a civil suit so Gibbs III could have said no for any reason (not wanting to sue Gothard, believing the suit to lack merit, not enough $$$ involved, etc.) and the courts could not force him to take the case. The fact that he chose to represent the women indicates that he at least felt the suit had merit.

Don RubottomOctober 28, 2015

Mark, I think the client being referenced was Phelps. If Gibb's employer assigned the case to him, he had an obligation to his oath and the firm paying him to do the job. My problem with him is he learned the law and spiritual ambulence chasing from his father. If the case fails, it will not help the victims, but it will advance Gibbs' career. His view of the case's merits are the least significant factor in his decision to file. I have not read the complaint, but if all claims are clearly barred by the statute of limitations, he could even be sanctioned for filing a claim that has no legal merits. Nothing I've read on RG, as sad as it all is, indicates that any of the real abuse occurred in the past 7-10 years. I some jurisdictions there may be no limitation on true molestation, but the only case of that I've seen here would be a weak He said, She said. An old man could get the benefit of the doubt from a sympathetic jury this many years later. Readers' sense of moral outrage over all the footsie does not make any claim a strong legal case.

dreamerNovember 1, 2015

Don R., statute of limitations only applies in a criminal case. This is a civil suit.

Don RubottomNovember 3, 2015

Dreamer, You are misinformed. Every jurisdication has statutes of limitations applying to civil cases. (Else, people would regularly sue for injuries decades ago.) For instance, in most jurisdictions, the period is 5 year on claims arising from contracts, 2 years on civil claims arising in civil tort law (such as negligence or willful battery). It is often 15-20 years on real property and many states have in the past 20 years eliminated the statute of limitations for sexual injury to a minor. If you don't believe me, ask your insurance man how long you have in your state to file an injury claim against another driver.

There is some really funky stuff on the Life Purpose Power Teams website. Classic Billology. His books have something to do with the "reins" spoken of in the KJV ... labeling it the "inner brain."

"Our reins control our heart and our heart controls our mind, will and emotions ..."Leave it to Bill to come up with more hocus pocus. It's really funny how many typos and grammatical errors there are. Also interesting, there is no mention of BG. All the books covers are cropped to avoid showing the author. Except one. Apparently the website intern isn't really good at Photoshop cropping. Or maybe that was a footsie moment. :-)

Does anybody know if obsession with the "inner brain" & trying to divy up the mind's effect on the heart &, conversely, the heart's effect on the mind & "soul" is particular to Mr. Gothard or is he borrowing from Freudism or some such thing?

Because in Hebrews chapter 4 it only says the Word of God is sharper than a 2-edged sword, able to divide joints & marrow, spirit & soul. The Bible doesn't say anything about having a war in the psyche by way of self-division (or should I say, self-divination?).

I'm just trying to figure out if his own teachings are only getting weirder or if he's adopted an established form of spiritualism of some sort.

Nicole, afaik from my neurology and psychiatry classes I had in college, the inner brain is most of what is called the limbic system. Think fight or flight, eating and the sex drive. There are several discreet brain structures of the inner brain, and these include the thalamus, hypothalamus, and the hippocampus, which is responsible for memory. I don't know all of what Gothard says about the inner brain, but it is a sound neurological and neuropsychological concept.

I have worked with a fair number of head injured clients (in years past) also those with CVAs, and find my very limited knowledge of the brain useful. Do you have any links you could provide about what Gothard says about it? From what you said it sounds as though he is seeking to validate his head-heart teaching with neurology, which he is eminently NOT qualified to do.

LynnCD, I have not read his books, but I think he's referring to "reins" or ureters that connect the kidney to the bladder. (I think) he wants to assign some kind of cognitive function to the digestive and excretory systems since the Bible talks about the "heart and reins." Also "bowels of mercies" and on and on.

He's trying to profit (again) from being the Indiana Jones of biblical idioms. When I say "go with your gut" we all know that it doesn't mean that the large intestine is some kind of internal Yoda. Gothard, on the other hand, thinks he has discovered a hidden truth that is the answer to all our problems.

DanielOctober 27, 2015

Just to be fair, to the 'unknown' author's actual views, I just ordered a copy of "The “Inner Brain” that Controls Our Life."

Should be a good read or at least a conversation piece to leave on the coffee table. :-)I'd be open to doing a book review... end hijack.

LynnCDOctober 27, 2015

I suspect so, Daniel. I only remember the husband as head, wife as heart analogy. And while the health of the gut is very connected to the health of the brain (as in the gut and serotonin and other neurotransmitter production and regulation), we will leave that up to researchers and there is no need to shoehorn scriptures into the matter. Those references you alluded to are metaphors for the whole person, and especially the soul. We can slice and dice, then step back and be in awe of how the body is all connected, but the psalmist and others were using a part to refer to the whole inner person. They were not trying to make the organ out to be more than what it was in a literal sense.

Larne GabrielOctober 27, 2015

That was the conclusion those we were working with came up with including a medical doctor. Bill is rewriting the medical books giving our "inner brain" and not the one in our heads, superior cognitive ability.

I believe the Bible is metaphorically speaking when using the "heart and reins" because our emotions have an affect on them not the other way around. When you have "lost love" or are "love sick" your stomach can be in a "knot". When we talk of loving someone with our whole heart its because the heart is required for life when it stops beating we died, thus it is a metaphor of the importance of that person's value to us. We can live without major parts of our brain, as is the case with Alzheimer's or being brain dead. But the heart is the center of life giving blood. All this relates back to the importance of the blood in scripture and Christ's sacrifice and thus the metaphors.

LynnCDOctober 27, 2015

Thanks, Larne. Just to be clear, there is a real anatomical set of parts of the brain that is called the inner brain, but from what you say, that is not what Bill is referring to.

rob warOctober 27, 2015

Daniel,was his site secure enough to order anything from it? I would be surprised if he is accepting credit cards because I remember back in the days of IBYC, one couldn't order anything unless it was cash or check. Now you can give analysis for us on what he is trying to say.

DanielOctober 27, 2015

RobWar, I had to use PayPal. Theoretically, I could have used a CC linked to my Paypal account, but I chose to do a bank account.

I actually remember Bill musing about how the ureters that attach the bladder to the kidneys would appear to be "reins." Instead of realizing that the word "reins" is an ancient description of physiology, he imagines some kind of mystical link to gaining control of one's own heart, emotions, etc. Definitely more New Age than biblical.

It's really a classic Bill recipe. Mix a some new Scriptural confabulation with the last 10 years of teachings, salt the oats by calling it "THE ANSWER" and "Newly Discovered Truth", and tie a bow on it.

Now I have something to go on -in sorting out what Mr.Gothard is saying nowadays- thanks to you three. I wonder if, in lieu of letting Jesus put a new heart in oneself & getting transformed by the renewing of the mind (Scripture does this), he is instead leaving any need for forgiveness, repentance & edification to OUTSIDE the "inner brain" (if at all). Because his main focus seems not to be on the whole person, but the "inner brain", which he seems to feel is the most dynamic factor in determining a person's nature. Through the cross of Christ, a blood transfusion of sinless DNA is available, but if someone is holding out on their "inner brain" as having the same regenerating properties it & the rest of themself are probably not covered. Even if the person will at least admit to themself that their Outer Brain is guilty of a great deficit in making right choices. And if a person can define 35 years of their life contrary to the magical influence of their inner brain's transcendent power....... maybe their inner brain isn't so great, after all.

I would echo your thanks to Daniel and Larne. It's impossible to know what he is thinking in coming up with his notion of the inner brain. If I understand correctly he is taking Scripture and twisting it to fit his notions, which is just more of the same as many of the other teachings.. I would have no clue as to whether he is using the teaching as a means of rationalization. I know when Larne and Ruth attempted to confront him he came out with the teaching on only giving a good report, which was very obviiously an attempt to make people feel bad for trying to deal with trauma inflicted on them by others, so it is possible this is some kind of attempt at rationalization, but I would not know that. I hope Daniel does a synopsis on the material.

Thanks LynnCD. Will do.This should be very interesting (if I actually do get the book) because it will be truly be unfiltered Gothard. While he was part of the IBLP ministry, he had some mild counterbalancing forces. Additionally, he kind of wrote these books as a "screw you" to all his detractors after he was relieved of duties with IBLP. He smugly mentioned that he wrote three books while everybody thought he was down for the count. I think the book should be fairly revealing as to his mindset in stepping down from the limelight. Time will tell!

LynnCDOctober 28, 2015

Daniel, some years back when I was studying Gothard, I was given or purchased three books he wrote, published by IBLP, and then Multnohmah's editions of these same books. 6 books in all, although I only remember reading 5. Crying Out, Jealousy of God, and Power of Spoken Blessings were the separate topics of each book. To this day I remain slightly upset at how Multnomah press edited the books to make them more biblical in nature. For example, the title of the book on God's jealousy. One title said something like "love that will not let me go." The other title said something like, "the secret to loving God."

You know just by seeing those words which would be the IBLP version and which would be the Multnomah version. And in the books, there were key places where Multnomah reversed or toned down the legalistic, mechanistic self-effort nature of the original books. I suppose they figured they could make money from name recognition, but I believe they added to the confusion of the general conversation about Bill's teaching. If all someone had upon entering a discussion of all things Gothard were the three Multnomah versions, they would probably construe the cries of legalism from those in the know as coming from extremist simple minded people.

I hope he adds a synopsis to this forum, too- and I'm sure it'll be a good report. "Good" as defined by facts/accuracy rather than by BG's desperation of demanding others to try to make crucial things about himself appear better than they are : )

Well if there was anything in the Bates family that was handled like it was handled by the "19 Kids & Counting" show stars, then it just might get brought out now; that would definitely affect their even higher publicized tie to Mr. Gothard.

You hit the nail on the head. Bill has lost touch with reality and his combo of mental illness, spiritual deception and old age is brining him to believe that he has unlocked the secrets to the inner brain proves he has lost his mind in total, inner and out brain.

I agree, Don. I cannot read any of his rantings now. He is so obviously delusional. I look at it enough to see the poor man's state of mind (about 6 words? ) and move on. Any church or venue that would have him come speak is living in the early 90's when the 'scandal' had passed and ATI/IBLP was strong in their passing on of false doctrine and is ignoring the sound truth on many a web site - RG, Spiritual Sounding Board, and more. Shame on those churches/ministries for promoting this. BG needs help, rest, and truth.

One young man I read personally talked with BG at a Journey to the Heart retreat and Bill told him how sinful it was to have his thoughts toward girls. He even called it "demonic". I am talking about normal, healthy thoughts toward the opposite sex. You can read his testimony online in a comment. And this young man truly wanted God's will - which was why he went to Bill. It makes me so mad and sad to think of all he was doing covertly for 40 years and then stunting the growth of so many young people both through abuse and wrong, harmful teaching!

That he thinks, in the midst of all of this, that he should be speaking publicly goes against all sound reason.

rob warOctober 29, 2015

Yes, normal healthy and even God-given thoughts, interests and desires towards the opposite sex. Shows you how sick Bill really is. And while he is telling normal healthy young Christians this, he is playing footsie and holding hands with young teenage girls telling them that they are his "energy givers". Should make anyone want to throw-up.

I really don’t think he is getting senile or loosing his mind. We found him with a great memory except when it was convenient for him to forget. He has always been surrounded with “yes men” other then his father and brother Steve. With them gone or out of the picture he developed the ATI program but his views/doctrine were the only ones that mattered. Now with him out of IBLP only his loyalist followers are with him and they would never never question the “master”. I personally think Bill is teaching what he has always believed but there is no one to throttle him back. His books are probably self published so no real editors to make them more acceptable.

My observation is that Bill is the man talked about in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 and 2 Peter 2, “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” He is false teacher or prophet that needs to be avoided.

Julia FettersOctober 29, 2015

I did not mean to imply him to be senile. No. He knows what he is doing. One has to know what they are doing when doing things in a sneaky, covert manner. Every time I think or say that, I am reminded of these girls. Just girls. away from parents. I am a Mom and it brings such an anger inside of me. Then ice that cake with his receiving our standing ovations at Knoxville (did I just say that? I need to excuse myself for a moment to be sick) while knowing he will return to Hdqrts (blehck) to be nasty again with someone's daughter who he is teaching to stay pure in heart, mind, and soul. Does it get any worse?

His bad doctrine is another story. The pain these young ladies have endured is paramount.

No. He knows what he is doing and has done. I think pathological liars become kind of nutty because they lie so much they begin to believe the lies. It is so important to own what we have done when we sin.

LynnCDOctober 29, 2015

"His bad doctrine is another story. The pain these young ladies have endured is paramount."

I would put the bad doctrine on par with him being impure with the young women. Reason being is, there are some who have testified to seeing the mother step in and take an abusive beating for the child. There is one person on this forum who uses a real name who gives testimony to this, for example.

Then there are those who have been shunned and made to feel as though they are substandard people - for example, those at the TCs who did nothing wrong, but were accused of having bad motives - again, on account of the false teachings (think mall exercise in ATI). And many other people besides.

There are testimonies from parents whose children want nothing to do with them on account of the legalistic teachings, and some of these children want nothing to do with Christians at all. I remember the private e-mails I received from one such woman, years ago, after she left the bondage of IBLP teaching.

All these are a result of putting the stifling teaching into practice.

Another example is making girls feel sinful if they like riding horses. While that isn't part of the seminars or ATI curriculum, there are many who testify to having this "teaching" foisted on them. Yes, what the young women went through was rotten, but there are so many who are still suffering because of the teaching, and these should not be forgotten. Bill directly abused these women, but many others were abused by people with abusive tendencies taking advantage of the wrong teachings.

I can't forget how Bill used to say a man's morality will dictate his theology. Turns out it is true in his case. So much of the teaching is designed to keep victims from speaking out or getting out of harm's way. They have to figure out first if they have brought down the abuse on them before they appeal.

Willy (female)October 30, 2015

Larne,

I, personally, agree with you 100%. I believe Bill has 'all of his faculties' as he continues to do what he has always done and feels justified in doing so. The scenarios would be unbelievable IF the facts were not evidenced.

I cannot help but think that 'something was truly amiss within his upbringing'. (I have attempted to investigate his early years. I read somewhere that he was an alcoholic prior to Moody 'taking him in'. Of course I have no way to substantiate this.)

What happened in this man's childhood that 'put him on this course'?? It appears to me that he willfully and intentionally set out to 'rule the world' with his biblical errors distortions. Does he really have an absolute disdain for women?? Regardless of any 'delusional upbringing', HE IS WITHOUT EXCUSE!!

These womens' stories, via Recovering Grace, are beyond heartbreaking!! To purposely 'sexually groom' young girls is dastardly!! It is obvious that he did not care how he compromised their sanity with his 'mind control'!! He took pleasure in all of these 'indulgences' as he 'gratified himself'. Reprehensible!!

And to direct the 'Headquarters/Institute' with an 'iron fist' is beyond despicable!! The solitary confinement and withholding of food for any reason in what was PRESENTED to be a christian atmosphere is cruelty personified!!

Where IS the evidence of the Holy Spirit in this man's life?? How does one human being watch multitudes of individuals suffer for years while being fully aware that he is the catalyst of their misery?!?!

He is void of all compassion as he further knowingly and willingly allowed sexual abuse to go unreported!!

So many are praying for his repentance. In truth, is not repentance the first step in the path of redemption....

But FIRST, the mind and heart must feel intense GUILT followed by deep REGRET for wrongs committed. Without the sincere, overwhelming recognition of one's vile deeds, there can never be true REMORSE!!

Elizabeth DOctober 30, 2015

Willy - I agree that he is without excuse, and YES, I have zero doubt that he has "an absolute disdain for women," as I posted on another thread (An ATI Education Intro) earlier. Analyze ANY BG case study and find the root of any problem ... either a woman's utter failure, or a man not exercising his "authority" over a woman.

I think it's extremely likely that something atrocious happened - probably over a span of time - in his early childhood involving females (mother &/or 2 older sisters?) that set him on a course of severe misogyny as well as narcissism.

I also agree that physical mistreatment in terms of confinement and withholding nutrition is particularly despicable, and just indicates his desperation to control at all costs.

You're welcome for driving you crazy, Don, but I want to see Daniel's thoughts on the latest book. It may be the wake up call that the obdurate few need. As Daniel said, we can see what Bill looks like unfiltered, without being sanitized by the likes of Multnomah or even IBLP.

LynnCD I absolutely concur with your comment on Oct. 29. And the quote you brought out about about a man's morality dictating his theology has come to mind more than once since we have found out the truth. Thank you.

Don, I see what you are saying, but if people didn't fall for this stuff, we wouldn't even be chatting in this forum. You and I can tell that this stuff is lunacy, but that doesn't stop a lot of people from still soaking it in. I would actually say that senility actually started hitting about 12 years ago, so I totally agree with you there. On the other hand, he actually believes this stuff that he teaches and he is very convincing to a certain segment of society.

The link to this thread is that the Board willingly and joyfully supported this creepy old man's penchant for touching young women. You and I can easily tell that he is borderline insane, but the Board of IBLP did nothing to protect the most vulnerable in the organization. There are a lot of corollaries to Penn State, Joe Paterno, Jerry Sandusky, etc.

From what's been said on here about Gothard's latest books, I wonder if he realizes that mainstream Christianity is on to him now, and so he's trying to shift himself into he shadowy world of "spiritual-but-not-religious" new-age self-help. There is still a huge market for that, the weirder the better. Maybe the greatest thing he could do for the cause of Christ is to stop pretending his teaching is "Christian."

I was at a Long Beach, Ca. basic seminar right after the scandal and heard with my own ears Bill's public confession. Up until that day I did not even know there WAS a scandal. I can tell you that after Bill's confession I still didn't have any clue at all that there was a scandal, or what he was really confessing. He simply confessed that he had not been a proper "covering" for his brother. I always like it when false teachers confess their sin of not fallowing their own false teachings. Anyways, I remember people near me admiring Bill for his humility -- I never bought into that humble act anyways -- it made me sick. Bill has mastered the art of crafting even confession of sin in a way that makes him look humble or spiritual. But I left that day completely unaware of the scandal and somewhat bewildered as to WHAT and WHY Bill was confessing anything at all. It was only later that the scandal story broke in the LA Times. Somehow I think that if you believe you have truly sinned against a group of people -- and that God wants you to publicly confess to the people you have sinned against -- that people ought to have some idea of what you are confessing to them. But then again, to this day Bill hasn't really confessed anything.

To Daniel-who-ordered-the-book: I finally found the site where he's selling the book. There is some reference to the gut brain. I hope he is not trying to make this new teaching on the back of research done by the Sonnenburgs, the Human Microbiome Project, or the clinical application of the same by neurologist David Perlmutter and others. There HAS been research in the last 10 years or so w/respect to how internal bacteria affect human health, especially in regards to the immune system, the nervous and endocrine systems to the point where the researchers are referring to the gut as the second brain. My personal opinion is it's better to refer to it as the gut brain axis.

The bottom line is we would be very sick if we did not have certain strains and proportions of such of bacteria inside us. The sum total of them in the gut weighs about as much as the brain. In addition to helping digest food and keep harmful bacteria and viruses at bay, they produce or are involved in key substances we need, such as serotonin. Some of them, for example, produce enzymes such as phytase, which deals with the largely anti nutrient phytates in certain foods. Personally, I have found that eating lots of fermented foods and taking probiotics has helped me sleep better, has lessened anxiety, and has eliminated motion sickness. But there is lots more. The science and clinical application of such is still in its infancy. I would be very interested in hearing your synopsis at this time. I know this comment is way off topic, but just so people are aware there is a lot of research being done on this subject at the current time, and all over the world, too. And about the only Scripture that one should say when learning all this is, "I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made!" NOT taking what is obviously a metaphor (the reins) for the soul and making hay of it in the manner I suspect he is doing.

Oh, and continuing on with my preemptive and presumptuous comments, the majority of researchers in this field are from secular universities and are committed to evolution as the model for the origin of human life. Just so everybody knows where Bill is getting his instruction from.

Does anyone know how long each one of the present IBLP board members has held their position?? Due to his TV appearance, I am most familiar with Gil Bates. He appears, of course, to be such a 'morally upstanding christian man'. I wonder how long he has been a member of the Gothard supporting board??

Don't these men realize that the accusations as stated in the lawsuit are not just rumors??

Did any of these men care enough to individually or collectively investigate these allegations?? (Apparently not.) Regardless of their association and/or 'reverence' for Bill Gothard, you would think that, even out of curiosity, they would have read the letters as they appear within the Recovering Grace site......

What if one of their daughters had been 'sexually groomed'. Would they have just looked away and considered it all part of their 'acceptable patriarchal society'??

From Bill's new website:"Bill is an idealist, and he has always considered himself in the role of a father to the young men and women under his care. As such he felt it appropriate to touch their shoulders or tap their feet in an affirming way, young men and women, and he has for 50 years held the hands of young ladies he is counseling as he speaks to their hearts, usually in front of others, in some cases large audiences."

Rob War,By the way, you're really asking Alfred, oops.... I mean the anonymous moderator, some good questions over there on discoveringgrace.com.

DavidNovember 4, 2015

@kevin

could you post us a link of that particular thread(s)?

kevinNovember 4, 2015

@David,There are some comments worth reading here in the comment section of the area he calls "Questions", but they are spread all over the website. Not only is the name almost identical to Recovering Grace, but the site layout and format as well. Each article has questions at the bottom.

http://www.discoveringgrace.com/questions/

The whole thing is really sad and pathetic, the length he is going to defend all things Gothard. It is as if he has no clue how ridiculous he looks.

He claims to inquire into claims and follow up to help seek resolution to issues and conflict. But, then look when posters present real issues.

One poster writes of of how he was starved sometimes as long as 3 days for not memorizing enough scripture.

The response in summary and in my own words:

Moderator: I looked into those allegations extensively and there is no proof that these things that you claim really happened.

Poster: How are you helping me by telling me that these things never happened? I experienced these things and you were not there.

Moderator: You have to appreciate that I have spent a great deal of time investigating these things and have talked to all the leaders at Eagle Rock and they say it didn't happen. And I know many people who had a good experience in the LIT. But, feel free to contact us and we will continue to assist you and have a dialogue about this thing that you claim happened, that clearly did not really happen.

Poster: I don't agree that I have to appreciate what you have done at all. You've got the wrong center. I never said it was Eagle Rock. It was ITC where my abuse happened. Thanks for your offer, but not sure I see the point in continuing to have you "help" me by starting out telling me that there is no evidence that my experience was real.

rob warNovember 4, 2015

thank-you Kevin for your kind words. I think the moderator is going to be a busy boy!

DavidNovember 4, 2015

Haha, wow.

I've been hesitating exploring the website more because I don't want to have to shell out $300 for a new computer monitor

I spent some time reading the site this evening. This picture came to mind: Bill Gothard has dumped 20 million barrels of crude oil in the sea and Alfred & Co are running on the beach with a box of Kleenex shouting, 'What oil spill?! There are maybe three drops and they were only spilled as a result of Bill's tireless and pure-hearted work of sea life conservation.'

kevinNovember 6, 2015

@JeffGill,Yes, Covering Disgrace, indeed. Hey, I know, let's start a website called Covering Disgrace. Dicovering Grace was created to refute Recovering Grace and Covering Disgrace can be dedicated to refuting Discovering Grace.And we thought he was doing the Alfred shuffle over here at RG. Man, it's like Alfred unleashed over there. At least he is allowing those with an opposing view post, at least for now.

kevinNovember 6, 2015

@RobWar,Yes, Alfred is clearly very busy over there. (Assuming it's Alfred, and I can't imagine that it is anyone else- every comment is his recycled defenses that he's made over here).I really wonder how he will be able to handle the pressure. He would disappear over here at RG for weeks or months and often complain about how exhausting it was to play the role of defending all things Gothard. Well, when you're running your own site, it does not really work to take long breaks like that or the lack of continuity will cause people to ignore the site. But to his credit, he is fielding all questions and apparently running to Bill for answers, then returning for Bill's reply. He sure is dedicated to Bill. And if there was any doubt in anyone's mind about whether or not Bill is repentant, the positions taken on the site clearly demonstrate, beyond any doubt, that he is not.

evaNovember 7, 2015

They probably would have used discoveringgrace.ORG except that the org was already taken by a woman who has a Bible Study ministry on there.

rob warNovember 7, 2015

Kevin,thank-you for your observations. I was trying to think of who Alfred reminds me of and after some thought, Alfred reminds me of Michael Voris. Someone that becomes so zealous for the truth that their zeal actually blinds them to the truth and reality and the only so called truth they become passionate about is what fits into their warped view of things and they end up becoming borderline kooks and stuck. Michael Voris in his zeal ends up becoming more Catholic than the Pope and a number of bishops. Alfred in his zeal for Bill and for the truth ends up denying the truth and he know more than even the IBLP board that fired Bill.

And others - you crack me up! There is so much that is NOT funny about this whole "New Way of Life" (our family knows first hand) - your comments are so real, and level headed and funny. I was actually laughing at the one about RG, DG, and Covering Disgrace. Not funny but a very funny play on words.

Let's see - another play on words might be rather than a A New Way of Life "A New Way for Grief and Strife" Both are guaranteed in your home, church, and personal relationships as you leave behind the true Good News and walk into the bondage of Bill's way of life.

Larne GabrielNovember 10, 2015

I refuse to participate in DG but one of the interesting things I observed is that all the comment I read except one were negative to Bill, the Institute or DG. The only non-negative one asked a question about Dr. Cornish and Kari Underwood. The website might be attraction a whole different group then they expected or maybe God is directing that group there to show his displeasure with Billy and his followers.

Larne

rob warNovember 11, 2015

to Larne,yes, I definitely see that too and I think Alfred and friends (or just Alfred) was not expecting that and I think the outpouring of Bill support he was probably hoping for is not there. Setting up a blog in refuting another and making several references to the other blog is only going to attract people from the other blog, especially when one copies or mirrors the first blog. A neutral or free thinking mind can look at both blogs and see the difference. I'm sure any positive love for Bill and his teaching would be put on front and center stage. I'm sure there were many more comments blocked that are negative than what have been put on. Not all of mine have made it.

Rachel (Bruzas) FosterNovember 11, 2015

I'm with Larne-- I read DG just to get a feel for it, but will not be going there again or participating in it in any way. I had to quit reading Recovering Grace for a time when Alfred was commenting so much-- to have him constantly and unrelentingly defending the person and ideology that has damaged so many people so badly was impossible for me to be around. It was a relief when the moderators banned him. This (Recovering Grace) is a place of discussion, but it is also meant to be a place of coming to understanding of what happened to us, and healing from that, and it has been that for me and my family. We continue to be very grateful for RG in our lives.

As disgraceful (pun intended) as the Gothard sexual overtones and abuse stories are, the fact is, if Bill Gothard were as misunderstood as he claims, and he was a pure as could be as to these charges, he would still be a heretic and a teacher of "another gospel."

Larne GabrielNovember 11, 2015

That is exactly the point! He is a heretic with his "another gospel" of “Billy”. One of the comments the Moderator mentioned on DG, that now seems to have disappeared, was "Matthew 18 was problematic" when dealing with the repentance issue. This is a further example of Bill’s “another gospel” including chain of command and umbrella theology. It is only problematic for those who believe their authority is greater then those below them. What Matthew 18:15-17 gives is the authority for anyone to confront a brother with sin. It in no way limits that confrontation based on position or authority. A lowly Christian can confront any Church leader with sin! This is why it is problematic to Bill and his followers because it gives permission for student, housewife, uneducated pilot or construction manager the ability to confront Billy with sin!

I correct my assessment: The board of IBLP has affirmed the DE-evolution of Mr. Gothard's conscience that has been occurring since he was the age of 30. (50 years of targeting females exclusively with his hand-to-heart manipulation, not starting when he was 35-40, as I previously stated). Too bad he didn't try that with one of the board member's SONS a long time ago. That would've been the instant end of IBYC/IBLP.

Yeah, they're already claiming that RG is fabricating all the stories.

Interesting in one of their articles they have this quote:

"A favorite verse of Bill’s is Psalms 119:99: 'I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.' ”

Given that one of the other accusations made about Gothard is his unwillingness to accept correction, I'm not sure I'd be broadcasting that verse.

rob warOctober 31, 2015

equally as interesting is that this blog rolls out on Oct 31st. They are also claiming that RG looked for girls to come forward and dug them up. Gretchen came forward on her own and RG researched it out before publishing it.

It is amazing what they will say and do to justify their own existence. They do not want "reconciliation", they want dominance. They need to get over it, the "glory days" (urgg) of BG and the seminars (snoooooze) are over.

I think we ought to thank them for creating a website that will prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Gothardites are CLUELESS about grace. And also that it will never matter what evidence is presented -- not only regarding abuse -- but regarding Biblical Truth -- they will absolutely refuse to see the Truth. To follow Bill Gothard and name a website that defends him, "discovering grace," is almost laughable -- but is indeed quite a testimony to the depth of the deception of the enemy.

'he felt it appropriate to touch their shoulders or tap their feet in an affirming way'

What does the author believe 'tap their feet in an affirming way' involved?? How did Bill explain this accusation?? Did he state that he stepped on their foot/feet with his while his shoes remained on?? How does that compare to 'touching of shoulders'?? How peculiar......

(To me, and probably to most individuals, playing 'footsie' is extremely intimate and sensual.)

"My actions of holding of hands, hugs, and touching of feet or hair with young ladies crossed the boundaries of discretion and were wrong. They demonstrated a double-standard and violated a trust. Because of the claims about me I do want to state that I have never kissed a girl nor have I touched a girl immorally or with sexual intent."

So I guess we are to conclude that these actions, which would clearly indicate sexual intent on the part of any other man on this planet, were simply harmless on the part of Bill Gothard. We must also conclude that this type of contact went on for decades, but Gothard never sensed any conviction of the Spirit of God, nor even from his own human conscience -- none, that is, until this was made public. Then he confesses that his actions, "demonstrated a double-standard and violated a trust." No. Actually, your actions -- which took place over many years, regarding many different girls -- demonstrated what was in your heart. I guess Gothard would have us believe that he is the most misunderstood and wrongly judged person who has ever lived. Well, Bill, guess what? We understand you perfectly. And that is before we even mention a word about the terrible heresy you have taught for the last 50 years -- shipwrecking the faith of many. But thankfully, you have discovered that you simply needed to meditate on God's Word more than you did -- and now you present this wonderful discovery of meditation for the rest of us, saying that it is an absolute guarantee of success. How nice that God speaks to you for the rest of us. We will all wait with baited breath for your next discovery, because, after all, you are God's man, and we are merely your sheep.

Sorry for the sarcasm. But this situation is so utterly absurd -- the excuses, song and dance routine, and attempts by Gothard to salvage himself. We are watching a man who is perishing spiritually. In that sense, it is quite sad.

MatthewSNovember 3, 2015

It is absurd. Even his most ardent defenders can see that Bill's judgment was clouded by his passions:

"Passions driving him to spend alone time with them "while working" way closer than would be appropriate."

And that is the reason why he is so dangerous!He created his own world where the people give a programmed response.No protests carried the justifisable actions of addressing the heresy,defending the hapless,or centering on hope for the downtrodden,fo 40 years.Shut up,suppress,tell the victims to "bring it on." The Gothardic world will relocate in Big Sandy;adherrants will encourage passivity,submission to "authority",not giving a"bad report",and more of a downplay on any real horrible testimonials Alfred would stipulate never happened.Become a "yes Man",an automaton,a lifeless Zombie to support ongoing plans,programs,and seminars.You can even hide your misogyny behind the subliminal ongoing currents of an already festering patriarchalist influence among the good ole boys.But thats not all. The lines,of demarcation,somewhat undefined,between Bill and the board,will be less pronounced and Bill will be down there also.Too many friends.Great comment David.Keep exposing this darkness for what it is.Horrible unbelievable travesty of the Kingdom of God.

rob warNovember 3, 2015

Standing ovation!!! That is also why Bill's favorite verse in the Bible is Psalms 199:99 where he now knows more than his "teachers" because he has meditated day and night on the Bible and where God has revealed again new truths of inner brain and it's transformation.

rob warNovember 3, 2015

I meant Psalm 119:99 sorry again!

LeslieNovember 3, 2015

To me what is so shocking about Bill Gothard is that he has no shame. For many, many years he has shamed others.

LynnCDNovember 4, 2015

@ MatthewS -- His "most ardent defenders" claim he was touching the young women in a affirming, fatherly way. They deny it was driven by passion. Makes no sense to me, but that is what the new site expressly says.

MatthewSNovember 4, 2015

Lynn, yes they do say that but the passions quote was a direct quote from Alfred on this site. They are too busy spinning stories to defend their hero that they can't keep their stories straight.

LynnCDNovember 4, 2015

MatthewS, I am guessing Alfred wrote both those comments - the one about "affirming" touching made lately and the "passion" touching made when he first heard the accusations. If Alfred did not write the most recent comment, he surely saw it.

I thought Billy confessed that such actions crossed the line and were inappropriate? But his REAL intention was to affirm? Wow. Poor Bill Gothard -- just a horribly misunderstood man. He does his best to affirm young ladies, but his actions are misinterpreted -- to such a degree that now he is forced to offer an apology and admits his touching was inappropriate. Bottom line: "I'm sorry that you were all so stupid and paranoid to think that my touching was inappropriate. So I will confess to such a transgression. It will make me look spiritual and humble, and make you look like the bad guys." Too bad all of the rest of us are so utter stupid that we cannot see that he was merely being kind and acting like a grandfather. After all, older men touch young girls that way all the time in an "affirming way."

Yes, and he also neglected to meditate day and night on the Bible. That according to him was his big sin. On second thought, he was probably meditating on Song of Solomon so he can have those affirming touches.

David, a while back Don Veinot said those who are seeking to defend the man to this degree are a hindrance to his repentance from sin. On discoveringgrace, that remark about footsie games, hand holding and gazing deeply into eyes while counseling the gals alone for long periods of time -- calling all that fatherly affirmation is a case in Don's point. It's hindering repentance by casting those evil behaviors and the selfishness behind them in a positive light.

This is dangerous, perhaps eternally so. For this reason, I do not feel comfortable interacting over there. I see that site as hindering true repentance. Whether Bill has truly repented is between him and God, so I am not going to judge, but if he has not repented, that site is a definite hindrance to the work of God in his life, because he has already admitted to the evil-ness of what he did. And DG is whitewashing it.

Larne GabrielNovember 9, 2015

I too have made the same decision not to be participate. There are a number of incomplete stories and missing facts on Discovering Grace. Complete stories and facts have presented to the Moderator of Discovering Grace privately over the past two years. Last year he saw the need for Bill's public repentance now he does not. Several have spent too much time in personal communication with him to continue this public debate. I pray for Bill and his team daily that God will open their eyes. I have forgiven Bill in my heart and hold no more bitterness or anger, as God will deal with him. I feel I have done what God commanded me to do. Those that chose to follow a man instead of Jesus will have to answer to Him, not me. Matthew 18:1-17 is very clear, as is 2 Peter 2 regarding false teachers and prophets. Then in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus' words are chilling. In the end we will all stand in front of our Savior to answer for our sins.

As I seek to be a better follower of Jesus I was recently introduced the Five Solas of the protestant reformation by our pastor. The purpose of the reformation was to restore the simple and basic belief of Christianity to the simple man as designed by Christ. The pre-reformation church had become corrupt and the required “instrument to God” a position for which it was never intended. With Christ's death the temple worship and position of the priest/sacrifice no longer had a place in our relationship with God. We now had a direct relationship with God through Christ. The pre-reformation church took a position between man and God. This is much the same thing Bill is doing. After two thousand years of Christianity we do not need a new approach to living that puts Bill in the position of Pope, as the all seeing, all knowing and only access to the understanding of what God really meant. Nor are we to take any of God’s Glory and share it with a sinful unrepentant man.

I remind my self daily of these Five Solas as I try to walk my Christian life.

Sola Scriptura- By Scripture alone; 2 Tim 3:16, Heb 4:12, 2 Pet 1:21

Sola Fida- By Faith alone; Rom 1:17, Rom 5:1-2 &18, Acts 13:39

Sola Christus- By Christ alone; John 14:1, Acts 4:10-12, Heb 2:16-17

Sola Gratia- By Grace alone; Eph 2:8-9

Soli Deo Gloria- For God's Glory alone; Rom 11:36, Eph 3:21

Larne

By Scripture, Faith, Christ, Grace for God's Glory alone!

David PiggNovember 9, 2015

David and Rob War,I'm so glad you two were bold enough to refute Alfred on his home turf;thank you guys so much; though the twisted end will never for a moment be in doubt:the propagation of a toppled world Gothard created for us to derive all our meaning from.The lawsuit against the board of directors symbolizes all the momentum accumulated from popularity,outward religious affirmation,hailed as our necessary means to a glorious end,now to be burned in the fire.I'm skeptical of much of the adherrants' desire to promote Gothard;to that same degree,they will be eventually held quite responsible to renounce it after the light of what happened,and was covered up for years.The website Alfred will continue on to use in a contrived defense will also galvanize the yes men;those who,[for crying out loud], knew better,but were willing to pay the price for the wood,hay,and stubble they invested in that sure did not look like that was what it was before the fire.And what of some of the others out there who did not want to see this as the sheer enevitability for the price invested in what was already judged.Vanity of evil religious vanity.

KarenNovember 9, 2015

Lynn, since Bill's sins are very public, it seems to me any *genuine* repentance would have to be just as public. I am not aware of any such public repentance, and I'm sure if it were forthcoming, those here would be among the first to acknowledge it. Until we see such, I think it is fair to assume BG remains unrepentant. Anyone who has not been caught up in BG's web of deceit will find the DG web site and most of Alfred's comments at this site and elsewhere have the character of farce, so divorced are they from spiritual reality and relational sanity!

LynnCDNovember 9, 2015

Understood, Karen, but this is the internet, and I am hearing everything from a distance, way beyond third hand.

rob warNovember 9, 2015

To David Pigg,thank-you for your kind words. They are appreciated.

DavidNovember 10, 2015

Lynn, he is correct -- support, affirmation, or even silence, is a hindrance to Gothard's repentance. But having said that, I think it is even worse: They have become a PARTAKER of his sin. That is scripture. And I'm not simply talking about the abuse and sexual things. I'm talking about all of the false doctrine and heretical teaching. To be faced with the Truth but to refuse it and continue to defend or affirm Gothard at this point -- this is equal sin. It does not matter if a person authored the heresy. Once people support it they have taken ownership over it for themselves.

Agreed, David. David said Don Veinot is correct, and here is the link. Note there is testimony by Gary Smalley that Bill ADMITTED to being in his CABIN more than once ALONE with at least one female until late at night. So Gary busting in on a lap sitting incident with an employee occurred in an office. According to Bill's admission, there was more than one inappropriate cabin incident. It doesn't matter what didn't happen in those late night cabin dates. It was inappropriate back then, it was NOT properly dealt with then, and it led to scores more young women being confused at best and emotionally scarred at worst: http://midwestoutreach.org/2014/08/07/bill-gothard-and-the-continuing-sex-scandal/

rob warNovember 10, 2015

Yes, Alfred is trying to make the case on DG that is was Gary's wife that witness a secretary sitting in Bill's lap at the office. I think that is true and there are many times in either the cabin in the woods and in his own office where Bill repeatedly had secretaries sit in his lap. I believe Ruth's own testimony admits to it. So I think Gary at one point walked in on something, his wife Norma walked in on something, other secretaries admitted it and even Bill himself confessed such behavior during the 1980's scandal outbreak. Poor Alfred is trying to negate one story with another but that isn't what really happen and what happen is a repeated pattern of bad behavior. Alfred is also trying to make some point that wikipedia took down the story but what Alfred doesn't point out is that anyone can adjust wikipedia articles. That doesn't mean the story didn't happen. All so very sick. Bill really needs is an psychiatric evaluation. He has stuffed his own desires down so deep within himself in denial and covered with "scripture meditation" that he has become clueless to his own abnormal behaviors and twisted them into "affirmative" touching and he had no "sexual intent".

It isn't surprising (however unfortunate) that BG has denied the basic allegations, and seems to be directly or indirectly (via the newly launched www.discoveringgrace.com) doubling down on the teachings that fostered the very atmosphere of authoritarianism and abuse. On top of all of that, he is continuing to engage in "ministry" to whatever degree with this whole "Life Purpose Prayer Teams".

The question I have (mostly for myself because it's something I honestly struggle with) is do we have any further reason to feel further threatened in some way by BG or what remnants there are of IBLP? The teeth of the beast have all but fallen out for survivors of the organization. Now I'm asking this NOT to in any way downplay past or ongoing discussions surrounding BG or IBLP, because it oughta continue. Though I must confess that his continuing unrepentant attitude and refusal to step down as a teacher does indeed trigger within me feelings of anger and a view of BG existing as a continual "threat" towards myself and/or my church. I wanted to open up with that because I was wondering if anyone else here on the blog struggles with any similar feelings and wanted to hear whatever thoughts and/or words of encouragement you might have here.

David,I consider your comment quite worthy of my efforts to encourage you at the risk of being vulnerable to my own flesh and limited ability to communicate the truth.I too struggle with feeling overwhelmed by those who bullied,denied,and will still try and manuever the helpless out of the way.I believe in its "inception" in the 70's with the first scandal God came to Gothard much like Samuel came to Saul and removed any ongoing authority it may have had then. Much like the power of the Kingship was in type in the old testament.But like Saul,Gothard will be relentless in maintaining a dangerous caricature of the Kingdom,attractive enough from the outside for some to want the leaven that leavens the whole lump.They don't know,don't want to know,and though as stated before,the mantle of God's approval was gone from its inception,its now being driven by people who crossed a line,bringing the church into the same darkness,or persecuting anyone in opposition with a capacity to ruin.Dangerous,Gothardism is like the tip of the iceberg,with the morass of its fallen,putrid collective guilt below the surface of the visible with nice guys,clean cut families promoting leaven.

You have natural and understandable fears and concerns but in dealing with them, focus on the fact that Bill and his ministries, new and old, are on the way out, not on the way in and the hey day of attendance and popularity are gone. ATI is a very narrow and isolated group. Most of the evangelical world has moved on and can see the problems with it all. Another factor to consider is what type of Church you go to. If you attend a fundamentalist or similar type of Church, you probably will be more exposed to those that are supportive, participate and endorse Bill and his teachings and ministries. I am not suggesting that you change Churches if that is what you attend but could be a factor if the Church you currently attend is using and supporting this stuff and hence could play up your concerns being expressed here.

The church I moved to 10 years ago is not the "fundamentalist" type you're referring to that I grew up in. It's a shame that the term has gotten the reputation it has because like many things, it started off with noble intentions of upholding truth in the word but slowly morphed into the legalistic machine it is, but I digress. The church I'm a member at now is Biblical expository teaching, non-denominational, inclusive of all styles and backgrounds while being exclusive to Christ and His word, with a mix of BOTH contemporary and traditional styles of worship. Most people I know there know little to nothing of Gothardism or IBLP, and that's what fuels this ongoing fear in the back of my mind. Gothard is one of those wolves warned of that come into a body to sew discord and divisions. I almost have this feeling of being a warship baring battle scars of engagements with a past enemy, that's found a home in a new fleet who may or may not be aware of that enemy; and I'm glancing at the horizon every so often ready to take a lone stand if necessary should the BG or IBLP mast suddenly and dreadfully reappear. I suppose the challenge for me is the struggle to trust in Christ alone to protect His church, not me. And also to find refuge and childlike trust in my mighty and powerful Daddy to protect me and my siblings.

rob warNovember 2, 2015

Thank-you for your explanation. I would honestly discuss you experiences and concerns with your pastor then and express than you do want to see this stuff creep into this Church. Maybe at some point, if your Church has a bulletin with articles, you could write about your experiences with Gothard's teaching and share your concerns and warnings with your particular Church if the Pastor was open to that. Just a thought and this way you are being pro-active instead of reactive which is always a better position to be in. I have an older sister and her husband attend a community type of fundamentalist Church. My brother-in-law is a deacon there. I think there are many wonderful and good Christian people in these types of Churches despite of the problems in fundamentalist theology. My sister is a great prayer warrior and we share prayer requests with each other all the time. I believe all Christians can try to get along despite what Churches we may attend and differences in theology.

rob warNovember 2, 2015

oh phooey, I meant to say that you do NOT want instead of want. Sorry!

DavidNovember 2, 2015

I got what you're saying Rob, lol. The problem with a public blog is that there's no feature to edit a post (without having to create user accounts). I appreciate your advice and wisdom on that matter.

_______________________________A better name for the site would have been Covering Disgrace.

I spent some time reading the site this evening. This picture came to mind: Bill Gothard has dumped 20 million barrels of crude oil in the sea and Alfred & Co are running on the beach with a box of Kleenex shouting, 'What oil spill?! There are maybe three drops and they were only spilled as a result of Bill's tireless and pure-hearted work of sea life conservation.'_______________________________

Jeff, that's hilarious; and the "3 drops" only happened due to oversight stemming from the selflessness of IBLP's conservation mode. They're in it, of course, for the OUTCOME rather than the INCOME. Ha. What a joke!

Do not assume anyone but Alfred is involved in his "refutation". Most ATI people remaining have their eyes closed shut because they have taught well not to listen to critics. Alfred is a free lancer for whatever reason that he cannot possibly allow for B.G. to be in error. It is weird, we all know, but it is what it is. Don't say "they" or assume anyone is with him in it. Yes, he talks to Bill, but it sounds like Alfred suggests the excuses and rationalizations more than Bill: "You really meant to be affirming, fatherly, when you rubbed our daughters shoulders and tapped their feet, right?" It is for Alfred, no other audience and no other motive. To save Alfred's trust in Bill: "For by Principles you are saved through faith in Bill, and that not of yourselves or reason or sound doctrine, it is the gift of Bill, not of understanding lest anyone understand and be out from under authority."

Just posted this query on Alfred's site. We will see what the response is:On the "About Us" page, you assert that Bill Gothard " continues to emphatically deny any criminal or moral failures." You also assert that: "We have seen him assume full responsibility for issues that we knew had substance and troubled us." Logic dictates that he has not assumed responsibility for any moral failure. Since you do not specify further, it would enhance understanding for you to share at least the categories of "issues" that he has assumed full responsibility for. For instance, are these issues of judgment, Scriptural interpretation, doctrine, imagination, personnel management, communication, or what? An occasional example would further enhance understanding of your readers. In what way has he "taken full responsibility"? Mere words? Actual acts of restoration or reimbursement? Has anyone been compensated for work not previously compensated? Has any previously broken relationship been restored? Has any teaching, doctrine or interpretation been corrected? Since there is no admitted moral failing, I assume all these would be categories of mistake (non-negligent) and am very curious what the correction of the mistake might look like.Finally, have you seen him fail or refuse to take responsibility for any issue that you knew had substance and troubled you? I would think it quite improbable that he has fully satisfied all your concerns, even though your good faith toward him is above and beyond. Because you did not say he assumed full responsibility for "all" such issues, your silence about unresolved matters speaks loudly. I ask to help you clear up any unintended gaps in your explanation.

Don, see what you think: Since there was no "going all the way," as it were, there were no moral failures, only some poor judgment. Since the statute of limitations have (I guess) run their course for criminal charges, then nothing criminal happened.

I am guessing the answer you receive will be along those lines.

LynnCDNovember 9, 2015

Oh - sorry, didn't get to the punch line. The issues that "troubled us" will doubtless have been cleared up by assurance that all "misunderstandings" from the young women about Bill's motives were explained to the site owner's satisfaction. It will all be chalked up to a massive misunderstanding, in a nutshell.

LynnCDNovember 9, 2015

PSS -- and this misunderstanding of Bill's motives -- in spite of the fact that he already stated that the motives of his heart were pure, is still causing those who perpetuate the misunderstanding and refuse to know that Bill's motives were of God, to blow what he did way out of proportion and remain in the bondage of bitterness and unforgiveness.

When I said in sarcasm "They're in it, of course, for the OUTCOME rather than the INCOME" I was referring to IBLP, not Alfred; (brown-nosers rarely kiss-up for any compensation beyond what intangible value they imagine on their own). IBLP, of course, has been in it for the income for 40 years. Outcome (World-changers) was merely an advertising ploy by which to get the business of people who already took seriously the Bible mandates of the Great Commission, parenting, &/or being godly kids. Income in the guise of & at the cost of outcome was/still is IBLP's M.O. by which they've ponzi schemed over 100mil in income/assets.

Which makes me mad, because, ya know: If these pre-teens, teenagers, & unprotected young women hadn't been dis-allowed from going to parties & dating, all that Mr. Gothard did to them might have still happened. All they would've had to have done was somehow manage to become as intimidated/dominated by artless, relatively un-manipulating boys in order to have their bodies violated the way Mr. Gothard did. And hey- it would've saved them/their parents 100Mil to get their dignity destroyed for free. After all- if Mr. Gothard's "touching in an affirming way" is such a vital benediction for a young lady to experience, well then, IBLP should have realized by now that they've essentially charged people for every breath Gothard ever breathed. All the while keeping them in a gas chamber so they would never know that "air" graciously breathed on them by Mr. Gothard is in abundance everywhere else. They should give people their money back; what kept Mr. Gothard breathing/IBLP earning a living was having prey that he exploited money & personal autonomy from. All this INCOME & wringing of personal favors from under the Billboard cover of OUTCOME.

That is a huge point that ties into however more blatant Gotharsism is to contrived evil.Huge point,Nicole.Now think of this,though this veers slightly from the subject of your comment.We as human beings may not be able to discern truth at all times,but we were meant,created,and expected to some degree to maintain it in our lives.And when we don't,serious consequences affect our emotions perspective,and the moral compass built within.I've been over to Alfred's website,and after awhile,like David insinuates,I can't handle the oppression of his counterattacks.He uses only enough projected hypothetical possibilities to create an almost feasable idealism Gothard never had,and without repenting never will have.And this is not even considering the lies of his heresy I believed for years.Imagine what the girls are going through every time they are tormented by his propped up denial of Bill's motives.Then the ad hominum attacks against Tony Guhr,never even addressing his documented evidence,just that Tony's reputation for being disrespectful was well known."Everybody Knew Tony".Argumentative,rebellious.And what of my and your faults and weaknesses?Conclusion:Bill is more ideal than we are.This world Bill created for us to derive meaning in life from,in which we live and move and have our being in,will be cruelly defended AT THE COST OF LIFE ITSELF!The leaven leavened the whole lump.So much for loving the truth.

David, you aptly describe the "wringing of personal favors" that I fell short of explaining. The IBLP gospel of The Chain of Command drew victims into their implementation of a whole sub-world under the dome. Any potential dissenters antagonized, black-balled, cast out (think Tony Guhr) so as to instill fear & achieve 100% peer pressure of a society all in subjection. As if that was even needed in such an authoritarian world. I mean, look at the empire now- they still seem to think that little people like us have no right to call our experiences what they were. Not to mention the girls. The whole IBLP seminar assumed the premise of: "I am lining you up at the bottom of the ladder of all your authorities. They all have that over you because I say so. You are to be in total subjection to all of them; and, of course to me since I speak thus as the authority of authorities." [Why did the church ever let a para-church organization define THEIR authority to THEIR parishioners?!?!?!?]

What IBLP did to cripple the church by crippling it's people has a lot to do with Mr. Gothard's career of sexual abuse. It was based on the premise: "everybody else has to look away while I grant my personal attention to the one person (always young, always female) who I'm 'helping' by 'gazing deeply into her eyes'. My authority to communicate with her effectively means I might be misunderstood to be self-gratifying by how much of/how often/how long/what parts of her body I touch, but she & you have no way of perceiving what I do 'cause I'm in charge & what I say is the only reality." Funny thing. Because I thought he says that his touch was for the purpose of communication of himself to these girls. Which indicates he WANTS them to understand whatever he means all the better by his touching them. He's said clearly that he sends (a) message(s) through touch, defending his touching on this basis "I touched them in an affirming way". WE GET THE MESSAGE, IBLP. We get it that Mr. Gothard felt he had to sexually harass women in order to get it all out, whatever it was he had to say. We agree with him that the kind of touching he did sends a message that mere words (even spoken by the head of an authoritarian regime) would have -as Mr. Gothard expressed- failed to do. But alas, the message(s) he was so intent on them receiving were indeed received; just not with favor. IBLP has hopefully learned by now that it only works to tell people what to think until the advantages taken by such exploitation renders victims so weak that they start having to take life for what it actually is. These people have gotten to where we just trust Jesus for his Spirit inside us to know what we're dealing with instead of letting every thought -& our whole selves- be run through the IBLP mills.

And, now that the message(s) Gothard says he had to communicate only through sexual harassment/abuse is/are no longer staying in the IBLP mill to be processed under the dome, well, only NOW has it become a problem for them to have been received. So funny. Because, if "misunderstanding" is such a problem in that people have their own ideas about what supposedly only Mr. Gothard can perceive of his actions....... then what was so important for his victims to understand before?

THAT THEY'RE HELPLESS LITTLE PAWNS TO BE SHUFFLED AROUND UNDER THE IBLP DOME FOR MR. GOTHARD'S SELF-GRATIFICATION. The same message we're still getting. Except that now they're out from under that umbrella.

If it isn't so, IBLP board of directors, then...... what IS the message originally communicated by way of sexual harassment/abuse to so many within your organization?

_________________________________________________________________________________________"It appears in those cases the primary problem is not his personal offenses, but rather what he stands for and teaches"_________________________________________________________________________________________

Those "personal offenses" did not grow in a vacuum. They were born of a root structure, and that root structure is at the core of BG's teachings.

_________________________________________________________________________________________"We came to Bill’s defense because we still appreciate all he has done for us, we know who he really is, and knew that most of what was being alleged HAD TO BE FALSE. Not one of us is personally aware of anything that even approximates the sex related allegations, including “harassment”, nor have heard this from people we have worked with, nor from the families of the same."_________________________________________________________________________________________

Right there is where the sword is thrusted. What's being said with no punches held is that all of you women (all 40+ of you) made up every one of those stories, most likely because you're "bitter" and/or "jealous". Those words are wounding, though sadly not expected. For the folks continuing to defend BG, what seems to be more at stake (understandably) are all of the years, emotions, and energy put into the BG and IBLP egg basket. All of that is now under threat, with increasing shouts of opposition closing in all around them. The folks running DG are not so much on any sort of "counteroffensive" as they are simply surrounded and under siege. That's just my speculation from my own imperfect angle on it all. Though it does remind me of how under siege I felt at one point when I felt "threatened" by God seeking to pull the rug out from under me (which He's done many times). It's so easy for seemingly good, "godly" things, ideas, or even people to become a foundation for me on which I plant my flag and start building my identity and validation on top of. For me, those "foundations" have often been built atop of relationships; relationships that I came to believe were godly and "unshakeable". I would build my identity and validation on top of those relationships, only to come to realize over time that the foundation I had built on was riddled with fault lines that only revealed their presence when they violently shifted and brought everything crashing down. I was then given a choice of rebuilding atop of the fault lines or seek out the solid Rock to rebuild on. Even now with the newer relationships God has brought into my life, as healthier as they are, I cannot rely on them the way I've done in the past; no matter how much "stronger" they seem to feel. I HAVE to give those relationships room to breath, and even room to dissolve if necessary with Christ as my ultimate foundation from which I operate.

Honestly every day in my walk feels like a siege, with God "assaulting" my beliefs and understanding on matters big and small alike. Even beliefs and understandings that appeared to have God's fingerprints all over it I've had to surrender and count as loss or "rubbish". An example would be renouncing a once held zealousness for proclaiming the truth of God's word because it was not done out of a spirit of love but out of a desire to be right. I feel like I'm starting to digress here, so back to Gothard's under-sieged followers. As I observe it all, I'm reminded of the first section of Philippians 3, where Paul came to a point renouncing all that he had achieved, worked for, zealously defended; all accumulated over a period of decades no doubt, renouncing it all for the sake of gaining Christ. In verses 4-6 he lays out quite the resume and years invested, then machetes it all in verses 7-11. That had to be an EXCEEDINGLY painful and foundation-shaking surrender, just as BG's followers (and perhaps BG himself) are now being confronted with.

Philippians 3:1-11

1 Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you. 2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

David,I would rather not comment about the other website or even the original topic of this post. However I wanted to express my appreciation for your description of your personal experience with the Lord and feeling "under siege" by Him. I've also experienced this -- it's a precious experience, isn't it? It reminds me of a hymn that starts out "O Love that wilt not let me go...."

It also reminded me of C.S.'s Lewis's account of how he got saved, "Surprised by Joy," which I recently reread. I was deeply moved when I came to the page where he related how he had felt pursued and eventually cornered by God; he was trying at all costs to hold on to his atheism, and eventually he couldn't hold out any longer against the "siege," and he said "I admitted that God was God, and I knelt and prayed." I was repeating those words to myself for the rest of the day after I read that.

I know you weren't trying to hold on to atheism but something quite different. It doesn't seem to matter what we are trying to hold on to. Whatever it is that is keeping us from the Lord, He will continue to pursue us until we let it drop and we turn our hearts to Him. C.S. Lewis finished up his story by saying that he had been pursuing Joy but he ended up receiving the Person of Jesus Christ; joy was in letting go of what he wanted and receiving Christ.

I love the verses in Philippians that you quoted. Paul was trying to hold on to his religious perfection, but Christ appeared to him on the road to Emmaus and knocked him off his feet, shined on him so brightly that he became blind. He lost everything he had, yet he gained the glorious Christ! "I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ."

I was looking at these verses in an online study Bible that I like to read, and there is a footnote to verse 8 that reads:

8-3 The excellency of the knowledge of Christ is derived from the excellency of His person. The Jews consider the law of God given through Moses the most excellent thing in human history; hence, they are zealous for the law. Paul participated in that zeal. But when Christ was revealed to him by God (Gal. 1:15-16), he saw that the excellency, the supereminence, the supreme preciousness, the surpassing worth, of Christ far exceeded the excellency of the law. His knowledge of Christ issued in the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. On account of this, he counted as loss not only the law and the religion founded according to the law, but all things.

Here's the link if you'd like to look at this and a number of other footnotes that are given for these verses.

In closing I also would like to give the full text of that hymn I referenced. You can hear the tune (or one of them -- there's at least two tunes that are used) at https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/nt/432

O Love, that wilt not let me go,I rest my weary soul in Thee;I give Thee back the life I owe,That in Thine ocean depths its flowMay richer, fuller be.

Hi All, My name is Hannah Leverenz. I am currently a student at New York University, looking to combine my passion for reporting/journalism, literature, and human studies into a definitive major. Growing up, I was homeschooled under the wing of IBLP until late middle school. I attended various conferences for IBLP in California, Indiana, and Tennessee, along with a Journey to the Heart experience. IBLP had a hugely negative impact on my relationship with my mother and her interactions with those closest to her, eventually driving my parents apart and creating and tense atmosphere at home. The teachings of Gothard were central to my family being torn apart and my mother's extremist mentality. I recently heard of the sexual accusations being made by Gothard, which led me to this site. With my background in writing, I am looking to creative a narrative surrounding Gothard's rise to power and his eventual abuse of his position. I believe that he did not come into power looking to abuse his position—he most likely meant to help people, but was overwhelmed by the crowd looking to him for direction and interpretation, and his strengths became his weaknesses. This is a story of fanaticism and the idolization of a singular man over god, and I am very interested in piecing together an article. I would be delighted if anyone reading would be willing to contribute advice on angle and what to include. Further, if anyone who has experienced IBLP and participated in the organization/knows about the foundation and growth wants to speak out, I would be extremely grateful if you would contribute an interview or opinions. Thanks for your time,Hannah Leverenz

As to Bill's "rise to power" I think you will have to interview those that were with him in the ministry from the 60-70s when it was known as IBYC. Many of those people such as Larne Gabriele are regular contributors to this site. This would also include Gary and Norma Smalley, Tony Guhr and Bob Wood. I think if you can interview those people first hand, that will give you a sense of those years and what happen. RG does have a number of good articles that discuss those years as well as early articles that raise concerns with Bill and his teaching. I have a feeling that your research for an article will quickly turn into either a series or book but I think if you are dedicated to it, you will see it through. I would also mention the 1976 book which is out of print but still available used on Amazon "Gothard" which was one of the earliest books about Bill. The other book which goes into him and his past and some explanations of why Bill has such appeal is "A Matter of Basic Principals" 1992. Trying to understand the social dynamics of the 1960-70's will probably help you understand why Bill Gothard has such appeal and why people flocked to his seminars during that time. I think someone that know first hand the damaging aspects of ATI is perfect for such a project and working on this might give you some understanding as to why your own parents got caught up in it to the determent to their own lives and family. Your own question as to "why and how" a gang youth minister ended up rising to such heights and control is very important because insight from all of this will hopefully prevent the rise of another Bill Gothard.

Hi All,Thank you so much for the generous comments! I'm sorry to hear your of your experience Nicole, but thank you for typing out such a long and thought out response. Rob--I agree, research will definitely stem from the background and time period of the foundations of IBYC/IBLP. Any good journalistic narrative generally needs a chronological story and a human face to sympathize with and follow, so I think the best approach would be to follow the story of someone directed affected by the recent Gothard scandal and/or someone who had close relations with him and watched his decision making and judgement calls throughout the history of the ministry. I have been trying to find a good "face" for the narrative so that I can bring the story to light... any suggestions? or is there anyone that would be helpful to contact?Thanks so much for your help, I was very touched to see such heartfelt responses.Hannah

I, as only one of the tens of thousands of other IBLP-recovering people who have commented here on RG, appreciate your candid investigation. I know nothing personally about the founding of IBLP (1st called IBYC) but I've learned much from the articles on this site. Neither me nor either of my parents came under IBLP dogma until I was 15. At that age, my mom & I began attending what was then a die-hard IBLP church. We didn't have to attend the seminars that were put on there (even though everyone was told to go); the Red Notebook provided the outlines & points for most sermons preached there. At first, I refused to give up my dreams of becoming an R.N., of staying moved out on my own, & of getting out from the tiny circle of people we knew so that I could be asked out by & agree to date guys whom I had not yet met. When my mom & I finally attended the seminar when I was somewhere between 18 & 20, I had already started college but quit to move out, managing to save $18,000 toward college by working 70-80 hour weeks as a nurse's aide. (The same brutal hours that IBLP's slaves worked except THEY didn't get legal wages, I might add). Anyway, as I sat through my first seminar, I remember thinking: this is the same content as the sermons I've been hearing. The Chain of Command, the 3 evils of Pride, Lust & Envy, How Much Do You Love God?, the guilt-blame balance by which a person inherit parental sin they themselves never committed (always propped with an actual scale teeter-tottering right there on the pulpit), Courtship instead of Dating, always intense emphasis on Being Blessed versus Making God Withhold His Blessings, Contentment/Thanks-FOR-all-things (vs. Thanks-IN-all things)!!!, one about fortresses in one's spirit/soul becoming even more resistant to God- all of it was totally familiar to me from hearing sermons saying the exact same thing repeated over & over, Sunday after Sunday. There was the commitment-pledge signing, too; because "spiritual maturity is defined by increasing one's commitments." Anyway, the seminar was pretty much just a summary of all the Red-Notebook-derived sermons. Except for one thing. The "fact" that attending even a community college, let alone a university, was the main reason people floundered in their faith. Worse, if your parents didn't want you to go, you were dead meat in the clutches of Satan even before you packed your duffel bag. After all, it was also the permission-giving parents who were being cautioned against their kid's imminent demise, even if it was Christian college they were headed off to! The only answer even for students whose tuition was paid & non-reimbursable was for them to cut lose & run home. I was horrified; I was set to go back to school & lose my soul. I was SO GRATEFUL to Mr. Gothard for rescuing my soul when it was right on the brink of college/hell. And I was a little put-out at my pastor; how could he have done such a thorough job familiarizing me with IBLP but have failed to do even one sermon on the evils of college?!? (The reason, of course, was that other parents in that entirely homeschooled church wanted their kids educated. Unlike my agnostic dad who had told me since I was 5 or 6 that I wasn't smart enough to amount to anything & started specifically citing college as one of those "things" when I was 14. He influenced my mom so that, after just one week of attending a freshman-high-school-level math class at the local community college, she went ahead & told him even though I'd begged her to keep it a secret from him. He then took up her week's worth of criticizing & condemnation by a few hundred decibels & a ton more personal insults). Anyway, in spite of persevering through almost the whole quarter after having had their adversity plus that of the Red Notebook sermons, I felt like I must be doing something wrong. This is where I was in life, how I came to attend my 1st seminar. I immediately gave $11,600 of my savings to the church to try to ratchet-up my "1-to-10 gauge-scaling of my love for God". After all, I was a terrible person; (there were intermittent sermons on giving that punctuated the Red Notebook dogmas). I was just trying to compensate for being terribly self-ambitious in spite of being such an obvious failure. The IBLP explained it all for the first time: I hadn't succeeded in curing my dad's agnosticism in the 20 years that I'd spent as his daughter. Regardless of that, I had gone against his will for my life by attending college & moving out; no wonder God wouldn't bless me. (Even though no guy(s) were involved in my motivation or actual situation or became at all involved). I kept my $11,600 offering a secret from my dad so he wouldn't hit the fan again & put $6,000 into a ROTH IRA as he'd always insisted. "It's stupid of you to throw your money out by going to college when you don't have the brains. The smart thing to do is set yourself up so you can retire after working a job- you're lucky to already have a job." So, that is what I did, & IBLP seemed to be proving itself true because my dad told me: "That's the only smart thing you've ever done." Hence, following IBLP actually earned me my first compliment from my dad. Then, I moved home since my only life goal was to be under my umbrella. I poured myself into volunteering at that same church 3 times a week & just worked. My goals gone, I just lived to please my authorities & trusted that the Chain of Command was the structure for how to achieve success. After 3 years I had 17 pages of tight-written journal pages succinctly describing specific instances in which the Bible's way of doing life had been undermined if not suppressed. Elitism & favoritism were major components, as well as lack of outreach & fellowship within the church itself. This Red Notebook church had split twice in the past 10 years & was actually set to do so again although I didn't know it. I wrote a 2 page letter of resignation of my membership, addressed only to the pastor. I still have a copy. The things I objected to were earmarks of IBLP even though this was February 2005 & I'd heard no objections to it from any source whatsoever. I left without telling anyone else why, because this would be giving a "Bad Report". My mom was not understanding at all of my leaving the church, & the pastor himself called my parent's house so often that I moved out just to have my decision no longer disrespected. In my apartment I listened to the entire Bible on CD a total of 17 times. I immediately noticed that I was hearing content that contradicted what I'd always been told. I started pausing the CD.s so I could look up & read what I'd thought I'd heard- to see if my ears were playing tricks on me- and there it would be: statements that flew in the face of the tenets I'd been taught. I filled 2 notebooks full of references alone with abbreviations for the core IBLP teachings that they debunked. Each notebook is labeled: "Bible Debunkings of BG". At this point, I started to tell my friends that I was coming out from the influence of a cult. They had never heard of IBLP, but they remember this stage of my life to this day. I guess I told them "there should be a website where people can can connect with each other over this." I got up the courage to tell my mom that IBLP had poorly influenced the church. She loved/loves me, & said she was tired of the pastor telling her that she was probably going to "bail-out", too, since I had. In some Christian publication she'd come across Don Veinot's book, "A Matter of Basic Principles". She lent it to me, then bought a couple more copies. She was still heavily involved in the Red Notebook church, but she said she had some "concerns", not the least of which had her going to church alone (without me) for the 1st time. She gave a copy to the pastor. He did not like it. But he said he would quit having the seminars there. This was 2005. The church had it's 3rd full-blown split in 2007, over the pastor insisting that his executive decision overrode the elder's concern over questionable teaching materials (even though he had assigned one of the elders to teach). My mom left soon after this. The 1st split had been over the color of the carpet (the majority of the congregants wanted teal, the pastor insisted that his authority prevailed, and, since his wife wanted wine-colored carpet, "anyone who doesn't like wine color can pack up & leave because I'm the pastor". Most people took his advice. The middle split was because the appointed "leadership team" wasn't allowed to exercise any influence whatsoever in the making of decisions. It was a Chain of Command church. When I was forced to go to a counseling session (for telling my boss that I wasn't allowed out of the house except to go to work), there was the Red Notebook. The pastor drew me a picture of the hammer/mallet/stone and told me that if I "reviled" my parents for chipping away my ugliness, I would go to hell. He read me 3 different verses out of his Bible about revilers going to hell or the Lake of Fire & raised his eyebrows at me: "So, where do revilers spend eternity?" I answered, "hell", but said I hadn't done that. he informed me: "You were speaking about your parents with the intent to hurt- that's reviling." But I wasn't. At 18 years of age, I was answering my boss's persistent questions as to why I never had anything to say about how I'd spent my weekend. The pastor then went on to say that if my parents forbade me to attend a movie with my boss & her husband and another married couple it was because I would end up getting pregnant if I went. He told me that "one thing would lead to another & that you would likely come back from that movie outing pregnant. Your parents know you better than you know yourself even though you're a teenager so you think you know everything." That talk alone led me to believe that a gal losing her virginity is as absent-mindedly done as accidentally leaving her purse on a seat at a theater. Also, that I would probably do it the 1st chance I got, since my authorities could read in me how evil I was. It was an IBLP-followed-to-the-letter-church; the pastor had been through the seminars 9 or 10 times, his wife was 3-time ATI alumni & liked to brag that in her younger years, Mr. Gothard himself had taken her hands in his, clasping them, & told her she had "a beautiful, shinning countenance" (she was blue-eyed with long blond hair). This pastor once said to me & one of his elders: "It's true that the IBLP's teaching isn't in the Bible.... but it should be. The Chain of Command is the cornerstone on which a person can either fall on & be broken or else deny & then be crushed to pieces by it." At that point, a light began to dawn for me; my pastor believed in a person/gospel that he admitted was "missing" from the Bible. Call me stupid, but it took me 2 more years (circa 2005), to get out. Fourteen months ago, I discovered what I had said 9 years ago should exist; a website for IBLP-survivors. ATI is even more traumatic to recover from. I am so grateful for RG!! I just wish it hadn't taken me 9 years after starting to recover from my cult experience to find this site. I am still recovering.

Hannah, I'm sorry to have gone on so long about myself. My experience was a cakewalk in Disneyland compared to that of most others. I hope you look further on RG to see what IBLP/ATI has done to really hurt people.

And, one last thing: You mentioned that you think Bill Gothard was "trying to help people, but that he got overwhelmed by the crowd looking to him for direction & interpretation, and his strengths became his weaknesses." Let's go back to his having his revelation about the Chain of Command. Based on the supposition that he was "trying to help people", he must therefore have interpreted this revelation to mean that it's more blessed to hold the subordinate position. After all, that is how he teaches it: There is a Chain of Command by which the kingdom of God hinges, so, the only right application for the millions of people who I'm sharing this with is for you to get in submission. Since the obvious application (as he teaches it) is for the one receiving it to SUBMIT....... then how did he initially take it to mean that he was to gain submission by it as the self-appointed authority on authority? He has continued in this self-appointed position to this day, selling this product of his unique "secret to success" (submission) by championing his position in telling everyone what's what. If he really believed what IBLP teaches, Hannah....... don't you think he would act on it, even a little? And have been at least a little bit submissive at some point over the past 50 years? If he TRULY believed that the way to "help people" is through their becoming more submissive, then how come he didn't join the military or a corporation as soon as he got this "rhema"? Why didn't he stay in church and offer to help his pastor, or do more to help his boss? After all, before he could help anyone else, he'd have to help himself. It seems odd to me that he really believed in his own "secret to success" when he never followed it himself, not only doing the exact opposite of his own teaching, but leveraging by this very teaching raising himself even higher. And now that his authority is no longer wielded so as to be submissively received, he's denying that he ever wielded it in the first place, especially pertaining to his orders to submit. This does not come across as him being a person who believes in what he says; only that he says what he will to get a response he desires from others. This is the M.O. of a dominance-driven person, not someone who stewards objective teachings.

Hannah, if you've read this, I thank you & I appreciate your 2-way, open discussion of the fascinating issue of IBLP & it's effects.

^^^^addendum to my response to Hannah. Toward the end of the 1st l-o-o-n-n-g-g paragraph I describe the Red Notebook/hammer/mallet/rock drawing counseling session. I forgot to mention that he drew the picture of the hammer/mallet/rock so I could have it to take home. "Keep it in your Bible so have the right perspective", I was told. Also, it was explained to me that no good parent could ever let their child out of the house, even at age 18, unless they were 100% confident that that child would handle any & every situation exactly the way that that parent would. (This is word-for-word from the Basic Seminar). I was told that, since I had spoken of my parents decision to a person who was unlikely to understand this "truth", I would need to regain their trust & that would take a lot of time. However much time my parents decided upon. When they became confident that I would act & speak exactly as they would, then I might be given more freedom. I was also told that I should quit my job, since it was my boss's sister whom my boss had "gossiped" to so as to cause her to make an appointment with the pastor to ask if he could look into my home situation. But I was also told that it was my parent's decision, not the pastor's, although he thought I should quit "on my own". When I didn't, I was hauled in for another session & told I had to. I was 18 at the time. No skills whatsoever other than in childcare (the job was a daycare). Fortunately, my parents did not enforce this. Both sessions were about how I needed to become subject to my parents. I also had to write a letter of apology to my boss for leading her to believe that my parents were anything other than the good parents that IBLP dictates- by practice- that all parents are.

speaking of writing an apology.....back in 1978 in Stamps ark where my husband and mister of music, ed and youth at first baptist, he was called before the militaristic pastor and asked "what is wrong with your wayward wife?" because I had ridden my horse to church. He was also told that there we were to have a public apology for my "sins" which included wearing pants. Hubby refused! We had also been told never to bring any black people to the church! I felt like asking my black church friends back in Calif to come visit us! Luckily we did not stay long after that. This was before we knew anything about Gothard and his teachings. The devil does not use any new tricks because the old ones (legalism and misinterpretation of scripture) work so well.

Just reading some of the recent comments on Discovering Grace. Prepare for your blood pressure to go up a few notches. The most recent comment by the moderator(whom everyone seems to agree is almost certainly Alfred) is posted below. In fact, didn't the parents of at least one of the victims publish their testimony that they confronted Bill?

DG Moderator:

"As to the many accusations, “Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment.” ( Exodus 23:2). Are you aware that not a single one of that multitude of accusers has come to Bill, with or without witnesses? (Correction, two from the published accounts wrote him letters with demands to renounce his teachings before they would talk – that’s it). Does that strike you as strange? One would think that someone’s grieved, angry ATI father or mother would at least come forward and confront Bill, right? I know I would be in his office in a heartbeat. The silence from the supposed 60 is deafening. What we do have is a civil lawsuit from a half dozen women not interested in talking to Bill, but appear interested in a quick cash settlement from IBLP. Even there, with all that supposed abuse, why so few? Any ideas?"

When someone make a statement it important that they make sure the words they use are truthful to the best of the knowledge they have. If not one need to provide the exceptions to the statement or change the adjectives in their writing. That said the moderator's statement, if said by Alfred is false as he is very aware of the truth. "Are you aware that not a single one of that multitude of accusers has come to Bill, with or without witnesses?" Ruth came to him with a witness (me), in the July 5, 1980 Board meeting Bill was confronted by victims with witnesses, Gary went to him with witnesses in 1976, the Denver 2014 meeting was with witnesses, should I go on.

What is troubling in this statement and others I have read on DG it the condescending authoritative tone the moderator or moderators use; "Are you aware..." The moderator is trying to put you in your place. "....not a single one..." really, I guess the moderator is all knowing and has talked to everyone of the accusers and was at every meeting. Oh by the way, I forgot to mention that earlier in the week of the 2014 Denver meeting Bill flew to Mexico to meet with one of the accusers. Her husband was a witness along with Dr. Doty Murphy who accompanied Bill as the mediator. When the abused women were sent packing in 1980 many had no support or money and a meeting was out of the question. Bill for several years after the scandal refused to talk with any of the women because he was supposedly banned by the board from doing so. (He made this claim in a 1983 phone call when he was trying to get Ruth to change her story. The board rule didn't apply when it might benefited him.)

Lastly it doesn't make my blood boil because I will not have to stand before my Savior and account for the moderator's statement, only my own. On that day Matthew 18:1-14 will apply along with Matthew 7:21-23. Those that seek to put another god (little g) before them will soon realize they are dealing with a very jealous God (big G).

Larne, it was for that statement about no one confronting Bill, and the comment about the touching merely being affirmation that was misunderstood as such, both of which are false, that make me not want to comment there. It is pointless.

Also of interest is the site owner seems to think Bill is vindicated because the lap sitting incident Gary S. talked about didn't occur in the cabin. I wonder why they don't deal with Gary's note from a 1980 board meeting:

"Bill has admitted staying in his cabin alone until 11:00 p.m. on several occasions with at least one staff girl who was involved with #2 [Steve Gothard] sexually. This was a violation of his policy of no single girl allowed in any staff man’s apartment alone."

If that was his policy it was violated at the TCs, when young ladies would bring Bill his dinner and visit them in his room. I guess the answer from DG would be he was counseling them and affirming them with these meetings alone.

Good points Larne. Yes, Bill has been confronted many, many times over the years. The negative declaration may play well with those who are completely ignorant of what has transpired and want to believe such a tale, but anyone who has taken just 10 minutes to look into matters will know otherwise. The moderator, who appears to have admitted at this point that he is Alfred, certainly knows of these confrontations. Seems there some selective amnesia going around, something for which Bill is quite well known as well. Yes, he will have to stand before God one day and account for trying to mislead people.

The folks at DG act as if the only problems with Bill are these supposedly false stories about him touching girls. I've said this before -- if Bill Gothard was as pure and as innocent as they claim in these matters -- he is still a heretic and a teacher of, "another gospel." They talk about going to him and confronting him? He has received letters and personal appeals, not to mention books that have been written afterwards, for the entire length of his ministry. Has he repented? No. The Bible tells us that after one or two warnings have nothing to do with a heretic. It says that we are to withdraw from them. It says that we are to treat him as an unbeliever. And to warn others. RG has done many of these things. So have others. The man is a willfully lost soul. If Bill Gothard is so sure that God is with him, I wonder if he would agree to publicly debate someone who is well-versed on both his teachings and those of the Bible? I think not. He would make a fool out of himself -- and not because he is 80. He would have done that 30 years ago.

I completely agree with you when you say, "The Bible tells us that after one or two warnings have nothing to do with a heretic. It says that we are to withdraw from them. It says that we are to treat him as an unbeliever. And to warn others."

I was once involved in a "Christian" cult, and interestingly the “heretic” that I knew was also named Bill. It was just a small Bible study group, and I was with them for three years. But after God opened my eyes to who they were (on 28 February 1993), I had such a burning desire to warn others about them.

God even led me to publish my testimony (now in the V-edition), and this is what a youth minister wrote to me after I sent him my book “Walking With the Enemy” back in 1995 when it was first published.

"It would take awhile to share with you all that I found to be in common with your story, though they are different, the similarities are undeniable. It's amazing how the Enemy's signature is the same."

I pray that God will send forth laborers into His harvest! And may He give His people the courage to stand against the evil, and the boldness to stand up for the truth, as we are led by His Spirit!

We surely need a few good men, and women, who are willing to be a vessel for His “True Light” to shine through in this dark and dying world that desperately needs to hear, and believe, the true gospel!

May God bless you and all those who love His truth!With the love of Christ,C. Read

Esbee,I'm certain that the type of person who took your husband to task for you riding a horse and wearing pants was the demographic that IBLP was tailored into ATI to market to. Found the target market, then designed principles that sounded reasonable to correlate to each quirk of legalism, then the sell.

There IS such a thing as "affirming" touch; it's shaking hands and/or giving a person a single slap between the shoulder blades. I wonder what it would have looked like, if, for every time Mr. Gothard held a girl's hand, rested his hand on her thigh, embraced her, held her on his lap, played footsie (sometimes up to her knees), stared into her eyes without letting her hands go, pressed his torso against hers at his office couch etc. he had instead substituted what the rest of society considers "affirming" touch. He would have been slapping these girls on the back repeatedly, shaking their hands like one of the 3 stooges, spacing these in very untimely intervals & for way longer than needed to make onlookers laugh. The Board of Directors probly would say "That would be weird if he'd done that instead".

Libby Ann on Pathoes atheist channel, Nov 9th has a very good insightful article about discovering grace web site and the assertions made in defense of Bill. The comments are as equally good as well. I don't think these types of responses is what Alfred and company planned on and shows how out of touch with reality, Christianity they have become.

You know what Alfred and company remind me of in defending Bill? He reminds me of those that get on TV and defend Islam. Islamic supportors and defenders get on TV and claim that the violence that hits the news every night is not the real Islam, that ISIS etc misunderstand the "real" teachings of the Koran and that Islam is a religion of peace and we are just to ignore all these kooks over there because they are not the real deal. So again, Bill is just that "touchy feely kinda guy", he had no intent for sex, he had no desires that way, he is just so misunderstood. He just wants to go around and "affirm" all these girls. It just all a big misunderstanding. So ISIS is just a big misunderstanding. So Sharia Law is just a big misunderstanding. So all the rest of us are idiots because we just misunderstand reality here. There's no violence here, we just are picking on Muslims. Bill isn't a sex sicko, he is just being framed by all these girls just wanting to jump in his lap for bed time stories. They are just jealous of each other for his attention. It's just all misunderstood. The nasty crusades that ended 800+ years ago made these Muslims mad, they are the peace/love guys really. We just don't understand, we are making them kill us now. All these girls just don't understand, Bill just wanted to be that fatherly kinda a guy, he is so affirming, he just wanted to tap toes to let you know that he is affirming you, so he removed his shoes so he wouldn't hurt you. It's all just a big misunderstanding.

Some numbers. There are 1.5 billion Muslims on Earth. About 100,000 of them are part of ISIS. That is 0.000067% of Muslims. Throw in Al Qaeda and Boko Haram and some other similar groups and you might just get the Islamists up to one ten thousandth of a percent. One ten thousandth of a percent. Is there any way to honestly say that one ten thousandth of a percent represents Islam?

I don't think so.

So who are all these Muslims we are told to be afraid of? In the UK they are just ordinary Britons. They work in shops. They start businesses. They are doctors and nurses. They are blue collar workers and white collar workers. They are politicians. And she is the very wonderful winner of The Great British Bake Off

All these Muslims we are told to be afraid of are the Syrian refugees fleeing from ISIS. They are the thousands who were killed over the last four years by Syria's president Assad. They are the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed since 2002 by the West's wars in the the Middle East and Afghanistan.

They are the people of faith who are standing up on TV and social media saying, ISIS does not represent my religion. They are a billion and a half humans trying to get on with life the best the know how. Just like us.

If we decide that Muslims don't have the right to be believed when they disavow reprehensible people who use their religion for violence, we should consider the implications. Are we Christians happy to have our faith defined by Westboro Baptist Church? How about the crazy conspiracy theorists who stockpile weapons in their backwoods compounds so they can fight off the black UN helicopters? Are they representative of our faith? Do the people in the Philippines who are ritually crucified every year as part of their Christianity represent the truth of our faith? The KKK call themselves Christian. Is Christianity therefore inherently racist? How about Bill Gothard? Is he what Christianity is all about? Maybe the Christian patriarchy quiverfull families where violence and sexual abuse runs rampant is the real Christianity? Maybe the real Christianity is all those priests around the world abusing and raping boys in the name of Jesus? One more. How would we like to have all of Christianity defined by the Christian armies full of abused child soldiers that raped, pillaged and tortured their way across Africa over the last 20 years?

If we want to define Islam by the actions of the worst humans who claim that religion, I contend that we must be consistent and define our own religion by the actions of the worst people who claim to be Christians.

*

Obviously, ISIS isn't just a misunderstanding. Obviously, there are troubling aspects of Sharia law. (There are also deeply disturbing aspects of Christian arbitration as it is practiced in the United States.) Obviously, many Islamic countries have a long way to go when it comes to human rights. But the increasing acceptability of islamophobia in the West and the way that too many Christians are echoing the Islamist call to hatred and violence leads me to wonder if we are in any fit state to be lecturing anyone.

Jeff, what percentage of Palestinians celebrated 9/11? Your limitation of "Islamists" to those actually engaged in the military jihad does not reflect reality. How many people in Egypt voted for the Muslim Brotherhood compared to how many actual members there are of this secret society? Sharia is supported by far more Muslims than are willing to commit suicide in its advancement. But Sharia is a violent law code hostile to western civilization. I don't think "all Muslims" when I think Islamists. I think the aggressors and ALL WHO AFFIRM OR SUPPORT them, which may not be a majority, but it neither is it a miniscule percentage. BTY, 435/330,000,000 "represent" the citizens of the United States in the House of Representatives. So "represent" does not require a high proportion to be representative. Think "representative sample", something which all public polling utilizes, in VERY small proportions. The question is not the size of the sample but its makeup. I'm looking in vain for those peace rallies in Pakistan and Indonesia to find the populations that contra-indicate the representative nature of the aggressors.You seem to neglect that the British attacks were carried out by medical professionals.Are you saying that a billion and a half have refuted ISIS and Al Quaeda and the Ayatollahs? Please link to the evidence. How can you say a handful standing up on social media are representative when 100,000 under arms are not representative?I appreciate the heart and principles of your position. I actually share it substantially. But I also recognize that it entails real, calculable risk to intake 10,000 refugees from an area such as present-day Northern Syria without screening for radicals devoted to killing us. 1 in 10,000 means 100% certainty of dead Americans. I don't hate or fear all Muslims. But I won't bury my head in the sand or deny the sense of reasonable protections. It is why we have an armed Border Patrol. All experience of centuries of organized civilization advises caution and control, to protect against the small minority.Worse, you missed the argument: that "there's NOTHING there", it's ONLY misunderstanding constitutes denial of reality. Else, your argument would endorse a full embrace of everything IBLP/ATIA because only very few leaders are lechers or knowingly teach false doctrine.

Unfortunately, I have clients waiting for progress, so I don't have time for a full reply. I'm also aware that I am going WAY off the topic of this post and Recovering Grace. I'll just respond to a few things.

>> 'How many people in Egypt voted for the Muslim Brotherhood compared to how many actual members there are of this secret society?'My guess is that this is more practical than ideological. The Muslim Brotherhood, like Hamas in the Palestinian territories, did the practical stuff that you have to to get people on your side: welfare, food, healthcare, etc.

>> '435/330,000,000 "represent" the citizens of the United States'Yes, and they are democratically elected. ISIS are as democratically elected to represent Islam exactly as much as the Lord's Resistance Army are democratically elected to represent Christianity. I expect better arguments from you than this, Don.

>> 'Are you saying that a billion and a half have refuted ISIS and Al Quaeda and the Ayatollahs?'No. I'm saying that 'They are a billion and a half humans trying to get on with life the best the know how. Just like us.' Obviously, I'm rounding up a little bit. This doesn't mean they don't have anti-Western opinions. Put yourself in their shoes. After all our drones and bombs and troops of freedom and democracy, after all the civilians we have killed while liberating them, after all the corrupt governments we have propped up, it's not hard to imagine perfectly decent, kind people not being fans of the West.

>> '100% certainty of dead Americans.'I'm going to kick the hornets' nest. If America actually cared about American lives, America would do something about gun crime. By saying that, I'm NOT saying a country shouldn't have sensible border security.

>> 'Worse, you missed the argument: that "there's NOTHING there"'I assumed this was a bit of hyperbole. I've never actually heard that argument. Maybe it isn't really being made here in the UK or I've just missed it.

A good question to ask is, who benefits from the Islam Is Evil narrative?— ISIS and other Islamist organisations trying to radicalise young Muslims.— Conservative hawks and their acolytes who are itching for more war— Arms manufacturers and dealers— Energy companies outside the Middle East— Western racists— Christian leaders who make a living from peddling fear to their followers— Fox News and the British tabloid press.You get the idea – nobody who is working to make the world a better place. And this is my main point, comparing a rose-tinted version of Christianity to the worst Muslims is contrary to reality, unfair, and actually helps the bad guys – because they're saying the same thing but reversed.

Finally, I agree with you that burying one's head in the sand is a bad idea.

That was longer than I planned.

MatthewSNovember 17, 2015

"I’m also aware that I am going WAY off the topic of this post and Recovering Grace."

Yes, indeed you are :-) And on a potentially very explosive subject, as well.

Matthew, let me pretend I'm seven years old for a minute: rob war started it!I am done though. I said what I thought I needed to say. Anyone else is welcome to the last word.

MatthewSNovember 17, 2015

And I don't mean to scold. Appreciate your thoughtful interactions. Just trying to help head off a big fight about a touchy subject that many people have strong opinions about, and understandably so.

btw, I think that "someone is wrong on the Internet" comic is one of the best comics ever - love it! And... Happy Birthday (yesterday)!

LynnCDNovember 18, 2015

I agree with Don's reply. If any doubt lingered, I just heard a replay of thousands of Turkish people destroy a moment of silence for the victims. It took place at some stadium. In France. Jeff, I agree there are moderate Muslims throughout the world who are protesting this extremism, but many, many more who seem to be applauding these murders and acts of war against innocent non combatants.

Don RubottomNovember 18, 2015

And where is your representative sample that the vast majority of Muslims are not sympathizers? I hope that they are not, I do not indict them, but the evidence is sketchy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtMiwVpYAmo (A moment of silence for the Paris victims in a stadium in Turkey, covered by jeering whistles and worse.) Where is your representative sample? Where are the public polls of Muslim peoples showing their solidarity with what our President calls "universal values". MSNBC CNN and CBS are more than able to counter Fox's irrationality with facts and reason, if the facts exist. Sorry, I know you were too busy to respond fully, but your selective reply (democratic was the Egyptian example!) did not address my inquiry. Sorry that I disappointed you with my initial response but your timing could not have been worse. It is not unreasonable for people in the West to ask where their Muslims allies are. Again, the instigating post was not directed toward "Islam is evil" but at categorical denials of evil's presence. I know you mean well, in the sense of a civilized thoughtful response to the unknown, alien and orphan. But the U.S. and U.K. killed a lot more civilians in Japan and Germany than we've killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and we seem to have a warm relationship with Japan and Germany, even though we pacified them. Do not excuse evil in any form. Particularly, it may not be wise to focus on the splinter in your countryman's eye while ignoring the log in the eye of our actively attacking existential enemies. It is a path toward suicide. For a much more thoughtful and righteous perspective than mine, I recommend "Without Roots" by Radzinger and Pera. http://www.amazon.com/Without-Roots-Relativism-Christianity-Islam/dp/0465006272/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447859104&sr=8-1&keywords=Without+Roots

Thank you Jeff for your persistent civility. I do appreciate your point of view. Please do not hear dog whistles when I comment. I am not whistling. I am exploring the depths of reason with the same sincerity and good will that you display. And read Without Roots. It is short and insightful.

Don, I want to clarify a couple things. The only part of your argument I thought was weak was the comparison of the US Congress to ISIS. The rest of it was good, I thought, though I disagree with some of your conclusions.

I haven't claimed to have a representative sample. I'm saying ISIS isn't a representative sample, just like horrible murderous 'Christian' groups are not representative of the Christian faith. I have no idea how widespread this is – it was trending worldwide earlier in the week – #NotInMyName. It certainly is encouraging.

The thing in Turkey is disgraceful. There is no excuse. There is context: Europe's willingness to pretend Turkey was on the path to EU membership when it was actually using Turkey as a Middle East buffer played a significant part in the election of a conservative Muslim government. Europe's lack of interest or empathy when a bunch of Turkish people, mostly Muslim I believe, died in a bomb attack on a peace rally. Again, shameful behaviour by the fans, but it's good to know context.

I have not, to the best of my knowledge, excused any evil.

I will check out the book you recommended. But not yet; I've just gotten volumes 4 and 5 of Sandman. Priorities.

1. I don't mean to imply that you accused me of excusing evil. I didn't take it that way.

2. You are always a gentleman here. It is a pleasure to converse with you.

*

Matthew, thank you for trying to steer us back to the topic at hand. I'm sorry it didn't work. XKCD is a wonderful comic. I'm glad you liked it.

Don RubottomNovember 19, 2015

Jeff, We're good. The nut is what makes a representative sample and your position is well reasoned. My analogy to Congress was to clarify that sample size is not definitive. On that I know we agree. Thanks for taking me as I am!

Don RubottomNovember 23, 2015

BTW, for what it is worth. This article has the best summation of actual polling data of Muslim peoples on issues of terror, suicide bombing, etc.

"...Muslim pro-terrorists are in the minority — but it’s a large and powerful minority; not a tenth of 1 percent. Pretending otherwise, for the sake of being sanctimonious, accomplishes nothing."

Rob, you said, "Bill is just a 'touchy feely kinda guy.'" I just had a flashback memory of a nasty episode a few years back, and I feel like puking all over again.

One of the deacons of our small country church, age 50, was caught messing around with a 14-year-old girl. She had just become a Christian, and under the guise of "discipling her", met with her secretly. Ugh, it's a long story.

Caught again, giving an inappropriate hug, IN FRONT OF ANOTHER YOUNG GIRL'S FATHER, things came to a head. When my husband and I confronted him about it this time, his wife (!) said, "I think you think M. is a bad man. He grew up differently than you or I, and is not as well versed in how to act socially." His own wife. Was she blind? My own children witnessed several incidents at the church building.

Deacon M. himself said, "I'm just a huggy kinda guy. I didn't mean anything by it."

The lies that perp told, and obviously believed. . . He was a smooth talker. Had the chairman of the elders (the grandfather of the first girl) on his side, protecting him. Ugh. Guess why. "He is a good deacon. If we ask him to leave, who will [do the work he does regularly]?" We found out later there was more to it: Deacon M. gave generously to the church. The chairman of the elders told me that they believed M that he had done nothing wrong, and if he was lying that was between him and God. Believe this wolf who had lied to the first girl's father, to my husband and me, to his wife? I just could not trust him. My husband and I made this public knowledge before the congregation. Many people left, including us. And I guarantee this was swept under the rug, like so many other sin issues before it.

We did everything we could to get this guy behind bars, but we didn't have the right kind of evidence and the parents of the first girl didn't want to press charges. So sickening. We left that assembly, and I warn anyone who will listen about the elder who was harboring a wolf in the sheepfold. Sadly, that elder died of a brain tumor. And as far as I know, the deacon is still a deacon there. I refuse to call that place a church.

I wish I could say this was an isolated incident, but I can't tell you how many times I've heard this same story, just change the setting and players. My heart aches for the thousands of victims whose lives are messed up.

GOOD FOR YOU Hester Archer for warning "anyone who will listen"! Now THAT is a good 'bad report'. ! If people aren't told it gets perpetuated which is EXACTLY why Bill Gothard came out with his Booklet about Giving Bad Reports.

Oh. the. damage. done. by that teaching.

I won't darken the door of a church that even has a feel of that kind of hierarchy where truth is not welcome. All truth - the good , the bad, and the ugly.

I say - Warn 'em. and warn'em and warn'em.

I tell my children and grandchildren to SPEAK UP if they are not comfortable with something! TELL. Be rude. Do whatever it takes.

"he is just being framed by all these girls just wanting to jump in his lap for bed time stories. They are just jealous of each other for his attention."

Exactly. Because naive/conservative/Spirit-led women will do ANYTHING to be physically hit-on because they love themselves so much more when they're being threatened & intimidated by previously unknown liberties being taken with them!!! SUCH a self-esteem builder. They're super driven to improve on their self-respect by trying anything to get Mr. Gothard to freak them out in the back of a van or in a room with only one door leading out. That's it! Because, you know, affirming touch only works when the person it's done to is isolated & hemmed-in, & preferably also either as soon as she gets up or when over-worked at the end of a long day. It just seems to work them over better that way than in front of crowds, or where there's 2 doors leading out of the room, or when she's awake & alert. Funny thing.

And you know, when it came to affirming touch for males? Nothin'. Not a back slap or a handshake- at least, not at the rate at which Mr. Gothard touched females "in an affirming way". I wonder if he would've bothered to take his shoes off before giving a male a pat on the back or shaking the hand of such a one.

"Because, you know, affirming touch only works when the person it's done to is isolated & hemmed-in, & preferably also either as soon as she gets up or when over-worked at the end of a long day. It just seems to work them over better that way than in front of crowds, or where there's 2 doors leading out of the room, or when she's awake & alert. Funny thing.

And you know, when it came to affirming touch for males? Nothin'. Not a back slap or a handshake- at least, not at the rate at which Mr. Gothard touched females "in an affirming way". I wonder if he would've bothered to take his shoes off before giving a male a pat on the back or shaking the hand of such a one.

Gothard is not just a touchy feely guy. I've known sales people that are always touching you on the shoulder, giving you the two hand greeting, hugging, etc. He is not naturally like that. He's did it on the sly because HE KNEW IT IS WRONG. There is a difference between offering a lady your hand to "help" her into a van and caressing it. Everybody knows it.

If one goes by the classic four temperaments theory as it relates to Bill, then he is predominantly moderate introvert (melancholy) and secondarily moderate extrovert (choleric). Both are cold temperaments, better suited to doing than relating. Many Christian organizations have been founded by such people, for example, and there is little that they cannot do. Their opposites are predominantly strong extrovert (sanguine) and secondarily strong introvert (phlegmatic). Both are warm temperaments, better suited to relating than doing. Such a blend makes one suitable for people-helping and sales of all kinds. Would the above help explain Alfred, Bill's apparent personality opposite, and the type of girls Bill favored, e.g. warm, outgoing, cheerful, and bubbly? In other words, I can well believe that Bill is not naturally touchy-feely. Think of the story of a pastor, about to see him, being warned that Bill didn't like to be touched or be spoken to loudly.

Very interesting observation. I did read the book by Tim LaHay that promoted the four temperament theory. You do have to realize that "touchy feely kinda guy" is tongue and cheek and in response to Alfred's defense that Bill was "showing fatherly affection" and this is the excuse for not being able to keep his paws off of girls. I think your observation the Bill is actually a cold non-emotion type of man is probably closer to the truth. Now that could be due to the temperament theory. It also could be do to his rather fixed and rigid, black and white view of God and life and others. Bill has an extreme mechanical view of life and he read and interpreted the Bible that way. The sort of narrow fixed outlook could also be due to a learning type of disability he did have, personality disorders (different from the 4 temperaments) and maybe even some sort of autistic traits all mixed in together. A rigid cold man would be attracted to young bubbly girls and that is why he would say to them "you're my energy giver". Your comment about a pastor being warned not to touch or speak loudly is very interesting. Often times, those with autistic type of traits are very sensitive to touching and dislike it (unless of course it is him touching young girls) and have problems with loud noises, non-empathy towards others, problems with peer relationships and friendships. He is obviously a piece of work.

Don RubottomNovember 17, 2015

Did he ever tell a homely girl that she was an energy giver?

KarenNovember 17, 2015

Rob, It's a very minor point of yours, but I've said before I believe "autistic type" is completely off the mark as regards anyone with the manipulative capabilities of BG. In my view, that is pretty seriously misrepresenting the nature of autism (and Bill). (I'm speaking as the member of a family that includes someone on the autism spectrum--i.e., I see this up close and personal every day.)

To my knowledge, the Four Temperament types theory doesn't have much credibility in professional circles today. Its origin is ancient Greco-Roman medical theories of the supposed "four humors" flowing in the human body (and their interactions) affecting mood and behavior as well as physical condition and types of illnesses and their cure. Likely there is something to the patterns observed by the ancients in these matters, but I see LaHaye's taking up this ancient theory and popularizing it for conservative Evangelicals as a real temptation to oversimplify the issue of human motivation and pigeonhole people in a way that is not necessarily that helpful or biblical.

Amateur analysis of Bill's spiritual dysfunction strikes me as a bit of a distraction from the real issues anyway. What we know is what he did is clearly wrong and he knows it was wrong, but he is unwilling to come into the light that he may be healed. Those who have been wronged and wounded by him need to figure out how to forgive him without excusing or minimizing the behavior, and they need to find validation, comfort, and healing from the abuse and deception to find freedom and wholeness in Christ.

B BadgerNovember 19, 2015

Thank you for your feedback, rob war. I didn't try to track down the "touchy feely kind of guy comment, assuming that it was a defense of Alfred's (as you pointed out in so many words, I just noticed). On RG earlier, he had said that touch might be one of Bill's love languages, citing himself as an example. In light of what I believe about temperaments/blends, I can well believe Alfred's self-description (Sanguines tend to be touchers), but I don't see that in Bill. (One evidence that Alfred and Bill are personality opposites and one of the factors in the former's fondness for his hero, is the countenance of his presumably also personality opposite wife, eg she looks Gothard-like.)

It is true that our influences are multi-faceted!

B BadgerNovember 19, 2015

Thank you for your perspective, karen. It is true that the Four Temperaments are disregarded in modern medicical science, but aren't the basic beliefs espoused on this site treated the same way by most professionals in general? CS Lewis felt obliged to unlearn his former "chronological snobbery:" "the uncritical acceptance of the intellectual climate common to our own age and the assumption that whatever has gone out of date is on that account discredited. You must find why it went out of date. Was it ever refuted (and if so by whom, where, and how conclusively) or did it die away as fashions do? If the latter, it tells us nothing about its truth or falsehood. From seeing this, one passes to the realization that our own age is also 'a period' and has, like all periods, its own characteristic illusions. They are likeliest to lurk in those widespread assumptions that are so ingrained in the age that no one dares to attack or feels it necessary to defend them."One evidence of this outlook is using names of previous ages, as terms of abuse, eg "medieval" to mean "backwards". I have never found/come across a detailed refutation of the theory and believe that it merely went out of fashion. Actually it is still popular and has appeared in recent psychology, or fairly, with different names. The 16 Myers-Briggs types have been equated with the Four Temperaments and the 12 blends thereof, for example.

One psychologist and FT adherent (Hans Eysenck) used factor analysis to analyse personality differences and came to the conclusion that temperament is biologically based. Yes, the four humours can be replaced with genetics, but, as you've said, their observations of traits appearing in clusters are valid.

There is indeed a danger of oversimplification, eg equating temperament with person hood. (In reality, categorizing personality types is no more categorizing people than doing the same with such features as eye colour.) There have to be reasons why certain character qualities (good and bad) come either more or less easily to each of us, along with skills and tasks, while others are so difficult, that developing such positive qualities requires help. In essence such influences come from both nature and nuture. The need for a sufficient number of people to complement us as well as the ability to accomplish certain tasks, engage in certain occupations, necessitates various clusters of traits, special needs, and aptitudes. Some come from nature: temperament traits, gender characteristics, spiritual gifts/people-helping motivations; others come from nuture: birth-order characteristics, generation type characteristics. Combined influences may amplify, weaken, or cancel out certain traits.

I agree that we mustn't lose sight of spiritual, basic factors, losing sight of or minimizing personal responsibility. On the other hand, failing to understand and appreciate personal differences, projecting one's own traits into others is a fruitful source of misunderstanding, tension, abuse, and conflict.

Hester ArcherDecember 25, 2015

Have any of you ever looked at the personality traits of a narcissist? That's what this sounds like.

If you want to know just how "on the sly" Bill did his touching, go back and read "Charlotte's" account. He did his dirty work so on the sly that he came right out and said"this is between you and I. Do not tell anyone" k. this is from the guy who told us to make lists and go back to the people we have hurt, lied to etc... I did this and it SET ME FREE of so much sin about 30 years ago.

This is so disturbing. It is one thing to fall, confess, and get up. It is quite another when you are teaching - both super good stuff and TONS of heresy - and being nasty in your car, under the bleachers, in your office, in a dorm room, etc... I think it scews the mind when you speak one thing and live another. That is what has happened to BG imo.

Yes, he worked on the sly with his "affirming touch". Thing is, it was affirming the wrong person in his sin.

If you want to know just how "on the sly" Bill did his touching, go back and read "Charlotte's" account. He did his dirty work so on the sly that he came right out and said"this is between you and I. Do not tell anyone" k. this is from the guy who told us to make lists and go back to the people we have hurt, lied to etc... I did this and it SET ME FREE of so much sin about 30 years ago.

This is so disturbing. It is one thing to fall, confess, and get up. It is quite another when you are teaching - both super good stuff and TONS of heresy - and being nasty in your car, under the bleachers, in your office, in a dorm room, etc... I think it scews the mind when you speak one thing and live another. That is what has happened to BG imo.

Yes, he worked on the sly with his "affirming touch". Thing is, it was him in his sin.

I had wondered if the men/boys who knew him had received frequent handshakes with Mr. Gothard's opposite hand gripping the upper arm (just above the elbow) of the hand that he was shaking. (A common affirmative gesture from a "greater" male to a "lesser" under his wing). And then I said to myself, "Who am I kidding?!?" I would appreciate it, though, for information's sake: if there's any male out there who sees this thread & actually did experience any kind of a 2-handed handshake from Mr. Gothard, could they please relate it. Also if it was a one-time thing or if, like his "affirmative touching" of females, it was repeated many times to the same ones over the course of knowing him. I am curious.

The insight into personalities indicates that this is unlikely to have ever occurred, as well as being absent in your experience with him, Daniel. But if it did, I'd like to hear of it and it's lead-up and the frequency of it.

Also I hope somebody lets the lawyer on the case know about the warning given on his behalf about him not liking to be touched at all. Whoever warned on his behalf should be giving that testimony in court; willingly or not. And they should tell how they came to be giving that warning; were they middle-man-relaying Mr. Gothard's orders? Because if so, then Mr. Gothard believed that it's not seemly for a person (even himself) to defend their own bodily person. The message of "hands-off" had to be relayed before any interaction took place & by someone other than the person who did not wish to be touched (his social rules). Which would mean that his creepiness is even more predatory in his own mind than it came across to Lizzie, who tried many, many physical tactics to get out from under his touch.

I'm interested mostly in the concrete (actual actions/addresses) made by Mr. Gothard, which is why I want to find out if there's any fella out there who ever got a 2-handed handshake from him.

This isn't to say I don't have an interest in theories that might explain how he's still determined to operate by selling & experimenting with people-management-techniques. Or that might additionally explain why he has no empathy with the very people that substantiated his very substantial business.

I never met the guy, or saw him off of the projector screen, PTL!!! But I want any answers I can get. Thank-you to all who ever dealt with him in person for being willing to relive creepy memories so the rest of us can figure out what/who ruled our lives from a distance.

To Jeff, Don and Lynn,thank-you for all the comments both negative (Jeff) and positive. I made an analogy with current events and issues in the news to make a point about Alfred and his school of apologetics. I know when using Islam and a number of comments that have been made by different people in the news that it had the potential of being provocative. Sometimes, I think we are too afraid of being provocative to make a point. Jeff, I am sorry that you thought I was implying that I think all Muslims are violent terrorists because I don't but on the same token, I do not think that we should in the name of honesty, cover up, hide or ignore violent teachings found in the Koran and Islam and it's history, even if many Muslims don't follow that to it's full extent. It is difficult sometimes to talk what a particular religion teaches and then try to separate that from those that may follow that religion. We talk on RG about Bill's teaching being heretical, false and harmful, yet there are those that still follow Bill and his teaching. I had an older brother that lived in Saudi Arabia a year. This was before even the first gulf war. Unless, one knows someone that has had direct experience living under Sharia Law and all it's implications, It turns out to be much worst than even discussed in the news currently. I also had a nephew that served 2 tours in the Marines. But back to Alfred. His love for Bill causes him not to want to look at the truth about Bill and at least his behavior that cause Bill to be canned. Instead, Alfred attacks the credibility of stories and those that tell them. When that doesn't fully work, Alfred then makes up excuses that Bill just has the purest of intents, he want to be helpful and affirming and he is just misunderstood. These are the same excuses used by the current administration over the current situation in the middle east and Europe. It is blowing smoke, it is dishonest, it is wrong and this is Alfred's school of apologetics which the current administration must have attended.

Saw today an article in Washington Post indicating the suit has been re-filed with B.G. as a co-defendant and some additional and younger plaintiffs. Gibbs III also, somehow, got B.G. to sign an affidavit critical of IBLP's refusal to get "help" and information from him in the suit. Sounds like they have gotten some things together and I am now less skeptical of the suit's capacity to get to the truth.Just want to give some credit after being so critical.

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