#1 On a house shot, should the breakpoint or exit point ever move left?

Explanation: For instance we have a 39 foot pattern. PL-39 = 8 board. So on the 2 or 3 point aiming process when you get up to aim, do you ever pull that 2nd point to the left. So if I am targeting 12 at the arrows 8 at the breakpoint etc should I ever pull that breakpoint to the left so I will be targeting 12 at the arrows and 10 at 39 feet etc.

Reasoning it should be moved left. 1st-2nd game, I had 8 at the exit or breakpoint and had very strong backends. I could get the ball out to the 6 board at 39 feet and it came back and hit the pocket. 10th frame of the 2nd game it bascially died. The ball slid at the breakpoint and hit the 3 pin. I took a more agressive coverstock and surface ball and still did the exact same thing. I was playing 12-13 at the arrows out to 8. My next move was move 3 and 2 back right ball back down to my control ball. I thre the ball correctly, hit my mark 2nd arrow, hit 8 at the exit point and ball slid and left me a 3 pin bucket again. Then I went right more, balled down to the BTU. Missed the mark several times. The BTU rolled early and had "bad roll" when it rolled. I finally at the last frame ended up shooting my medium oil match with low flare over the 2nd arrow more up the boards and I struck.

From what I saw, maybe sometimes you have to play more toward the head poin and straighter and not trying to swing it out that much? Keep a tighter line. I had 2 guys 70 years old bowling with alot of experience and they said what happend was the oil got pushed down the lane. So my question is if the oil gets pushed down the lane, then it is time to move the 2nd aim point to the left a little?

#2 How can you tell if you made a mistake at the release point in your launch angle? Lets say you hit your 1st aiming point at the arrows, but how can be sure that you threw your arm in the same angle as the way that you lined up in your stance? Even if you hit the 1st poing you aimed for, there can be 2 reasons that the ball didn't end up at the 2nd aim poing even if the release was consistant. #1 drifting to the right and throwing the arm with a straighter trajectory. or #2 the pattern got drier and the ball started to hook earlier. I know that you can spot someone doing it, but how do you tell that you, yourself is guilty of that?

Explanation: I can tell if I didn't get out of the ball fast enough or broke my wrist. I can tell if I came over the top of the ball or I had more or less ball speed on it. I can tell if I hit my mark or didn't. The only thing I really can't tell right now is if I hit the correct launch angle I was aiming for.

Monday I started with my foot on board 25 using a match with bad ball reaction but I could hit the pocket.. 2nd game I was around 30 throwing across 12 out to 8 and had the best ball motion ever. 3rd game I couldn't get the ball out far enough right. At the end of game 3, my left foot was on 40 and I was still not getting it deep enough. I would get it out to around probably 12 instead of 8 and split or hit high or brooklyn etc. I could tell that I hit the mark but I don't feel I was getting the ball out at the right angle and I was throwing maybe straighter. I did feel like tonight I was doing what I was suppose to on Monday and that was opening my shoulders up and throwing to the right. But that is kind of hard to "feel" if your not used to it. Is there someway you can tell if you have the wrong angle by watching your hand as you realease the ball and see where the hand comes through at?

#3 Can you tame the backend reaction of your ball by just moving left?

Explanation: I think you can. In practice I threw a ball down 2nd arrow and also threw a ball accross 3rd arrow out to 8. The one that I did on 3rd arrow out to 8 didn't quite make it back to the pocket while the one on 2nd arrow did. On Monday I didn't have a ball that goes "long and strong" I just had a control ball and a medium low flare ball. I couldn't get the ball far enough to the right with the control ball.

I am just getting really frustrated at the 3rd game. Monday shot 255 2nd game and then shot 149 3rd game because I couldn't get the ball far enough right at all. People with low revs stayed on 2nd arrow the whole 3 games somehow. Now Wednesday shot 211 after missing 1 pin of a bucket and then shot in the 140's again because too much carry down and couldn't get the ball to hook into the pocket.

Please go back and re-read the article I wrote for BTM entitled, "The Dead Zone Revisited." After one league session, the breakpoint where everyone was playing (8 board) was totally dry, while there was still plenty of oil at 11 board. Common sense says that the end of the pattern where everyone is playing regardless of where they start at the arrows to get there, will be the part that gets burned up the most. Oh, wait a minute... you still think that you're dealing with carry down... never mind! LOL

you still think that you're dealing with carry down... never mind! LOL

I was a long time disciple of "carry down does not exist" anymore. However, after inspecting the old WTBA LA pattern before and after bowling on it, there is something to be said for carry down, in some form, existing.

After bowling on the WTBA LA pattern, the pattern became elongated at the preferred exit point. Between the 3rd and 8th boards at the end of the original 36 ft of the pattern on both the left and right sides of the lane there were 2 foot long streaks of oil that were heavy enough to affect ball motion. What was a 36ft pattern became/morphed into a 38ft pattern - with somewhat depleted heads (LA was good for holding up - the heads were not battered). Which, would help to explain why the pattern started playing a little bit tighter/longer and my need to ball up to get my ball to the pocket playing the same line (I was not dealing with loss of energy issues). Obviously there were bow tie marks down lane as well and lighter strips of oil going towards the corners but it was those heavier streaks at the end of the pattern that affected ball motion.

Now with all that said, I do not believe carry down exists in the same form as it used to be before flaring bowling balls. However, there is some truth to oil being pushed down the lane and affecting ball motion - just not all the way to the pins. I also believe different oils and different surfaces will result in different carry down results. I would bet that a THS will carry down differently than LA...

Rob, as a writer and someone who is keen on the science of bowling, perhaps this is something you can test out in your home center and write about? Maybe several tests - THS vs sport? Maybe 2 different oil types? I would be fascinated to see if your experience is something markedly different than what I have seen (which is only 1 pattern on 1 night - an extremely low sample size). I am an avid reader of BTM and would really enjoy an article on this.

Lefty Wall: As I cited in the article, the question is not whether or not there are streaks of oil that can be seen off of the end of the pattern. There definitely are. What I did was to have a tape taken after 24 league games of the area past the end of the pattern. What it showed was that there were only two streaks across the entire lane that were comprised of two units of oil. All of the others were less than two units with most being less than one.

As the USBC requires that at least three units of oil be applied from gutter to gutter for the entire length of the pattern, and we have all seen reactive balls miss WAY right, hang over the right gutter, and come screaming back to the pocket, logic dictates that modern reactive balls don't react to three units of oil, much less one or two. The hard part of the whole discussion is not whether or not the streaks exist. It's whether or not the streaks affect ball reaction. Personally, I don't believe they do.

What it showed was that there were only two streaks across the entire lane that were comprised of two units of oil. All of the others were less than two units with most being less than one.

Thats fine but it doesn't mean the result will be the same every where if you did it.

Quote:

As the USBC requires that at least three units of oil be applied from gutter to gutter for the entire length of the pattern, and we have all seen reactive balls miss WAY right, hang over the right gutter, and come screaming back to the pocket, logic dictates that modern reactive balls don't react to three units of oil, much less one or two.

Most of the time when I seen balls come "screaming" back from the far outside, they were passed the end of the pattern. In a area that wouldn't have had any oil in the first place and wouldn't have any carrydown. So we can't really say the ball came screaming back coming off of 3 units of oil.

Quote:

The hard part of the whole discussion is not whether or not the streaks exist. It's whether or not the streaks affect ball reaction. Personally, I don't believe they do.

As the USBC requires that at least three units of oil be applied from gutter to gutter for the entire length of the pattern, and we have all seen reactive balls miss WAY right, hang over the right gutter, and come screaming back to the pocket, logic dictates that modern reactive balls don't react to three units of oil

Riddle me this: Do you honestly believe every house shot has at least 3 "units" of oil across the whole lane?My urethane ball check rolling at 15 feet up 5 says no.

Sorry to break it to you. Certification of lane conditions is a joke. You cannot base your ball motion logic on everyone being honest with lane cert.

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Rob sorry didn't go back and read the deadzone revisited yet. I will Dang sure do that later when I get back home. Actually will do it now before I go. If this happens tonight I am going to experiment and pull my line in tighter. I will go back and read every single post and every link to every post when I get back. Thanks for all the replies hopefully I figure this out.

Ok read through Rob's article really really fast but will go back and re read it. I didn't know that if the ball encounters too dry of an area it could kill it. So I didn't know that. I am going to keep an open mind on this. So I could be wrong but here is my guess. How can you tell if what I am encountering is either the "dead zone" or carry down. If I do what the article says and pull my breakpoint in left just a bit and the ball hooks normal again, then it was most likely the dead zone. If I pull my breakpoint in lets say 2 boards or so and it still dies at that area, I will say it is carry down. I believe that is a fair assumption isn't it? If there is carry down, then there should be carry down in that spot also or atleast a little of it. The main thing I was looking for was pulling the breakpoint left a little. IN his article, he says that you also have to pull your breakpoint in at a much slower rate then the moving at the arrows which I will agree after dealing with this the last few times.

The problem is that the new lane machines completely dry the backends up. so they are alot more drier then ever and the ball jumps. Now if that area had carry down on it and not burned up then if you throw a few balls down there to soak up the carry down and then the 8 board starts being the breakpoint again then it is carry down and not this deadzone thing.

The point isn't too much what happend, the point is how do you deal with that situation and that answer is to pull in the breakpoint in 2-3 boards and see how that helps.

Riddle me this: Do you honestly believe every house shot has at least 3 "units" of oil across the whole lane?My urethane ball check rolling at 15 feet up 5 says no.Sorry to break it to you. Certification of lane conditions is a joke. You cannot base your ball motion logic on everyone being honest with lane cert.

1. For the most part, yes.2. Urethane is notorious for reading the lane early. Bowlers tend to think of urethane when attacking dry lies, but, unless you have a lot of ball speed, it's usually not the best option.3. I have served on the Southern Nevada USBC Board of Directors. I have participated in many lane certifications. Yes, it is a joke. Being that the min. oil requirement is one of the only things that can be easily checked on a moments notice, any proprietor who ignores that one requirement is risking a whole lot, for so very little.

Last year, in the highest scoring house in the area, a local and national record was broken.The local association inspector showed up previous to the record being broken.After he left, shortly after the record was broken, what was the first thing the proprietor did after the record was set?He put the first open bowlers to walk in, on the pair with plastic balls for a couple of hours.

I do not think all that many house shots are legal.In my area in the east the reactivity on the outside of the lane has not changed with technology advancements in oil and coverstocks. Its stone cold overwalled. Some if not most are illegal, there is no doubt in my mind.

I have no way to prove this, but you would think with advancements in oil viscosity older, mild bowling balls like my Brunswick Red Zone wouldnt read immediately on the lane outside of 10. Around here its impossible to play outside the block unless you knuckle it.

They have a lot to gain from bucking the rules.Biggest wall in the land gets the biggest scores.Big Scores = Big Money

Random, non-scheduled inspections just dont happen.Very little risk.

Thats how I see it at least.

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I have to agree with megaMav there. Some houses are so much more easier then others. The easiest house I have seen is plano superbowl in Dallas, Tx. There is a lot of people here and someone must be from Dallas. I went there to get coached and averaged in the 240's or so. Miss a shot and then it comes back all of a sudden etc. You can tell if a place is easier or something is going on, if you go there and bowl a lot better then you do at your own house. The backends might have something to do with it also. I have thrown a shot or two lately on these new kegal flex walker machines that should never have came back and they did.

But everyone that hooks the ball is bitching about the lanes or something going on. Everyone from the 225 average (best bowlers here) to the 150 average people. Our house is not used to extremely clean backends. Hopefully people are bitching for the right reasons though. Just because someone didn't do well doesn't mean there is something wrong with the lanes. I bowled today and forgot one very important fundamental aspect and that is to get your body out of the way. I was standing on 28 with my left foot aiming to go over 10 and out and end up hitting the 6 board. I was placing the ball too close to the center of my body and not out to my side and not getting my body away from the ball and the swing went haywire. I recognized this after the 3rd frame and did what Megamav and Jmerrel said and that was to bend your knees tilt the body and it was so much easier getting a straight swing. It is still hard to not break your wrist when your wrist is sprained still though.

Krava get some KT tape. Tape your wrist like how EJ Tackett tapes his. First you put the first piece on the back of your hand and just go straight back with no resistance. With the second piece of tape wrap your wrist like how you normally would with regular athletic tape. While it's a temporary fix, get diagnosed and take any time off that you can and you will feel much better.

#1 On a house shot, should the breakpoint or exit point ever move left?

Explanation: For instance we have a 39 foot pattern. PL-39 = 8 board. So on the 2 or 3 point aiming process when you get up to aim, do you ever pull that 2nd point to the left. So if I am targeting 12 at the arrows 8 at the breakpoint etc should I ever pull that breakpoint to the left so I will be targeting 12 at the arrows and 10 at 39 feet etc.

Reasoning it should be moved left. 1st-2nd game, I had 8 at the exit or breakpoint and had very strong backends. I could get the ball out to the 6 board at 39 feet and it came back and hit the pocket. 10th frame of the 2nd game it bascially died. The ball slid at the breakpoint and hit the 3 pin. I took a more agressive coverstock and surface ball and still did the exact same thing. I was playing 12-13 at the arrows out to 8. My next move was move 3 and 2 back right ball back down to my control ball. I thre the ball correctly, hit my mark 2nd arrow, hit 8 at the exit point and ball slid and left me a 3 pin bucket again. Then I went right more, balled down to the BTU. Missed the mark several times. The BTU rolled early and had "bad roll" when it rolled. I finally at the last frame ended up shooting my medium oil match with low flare over the 2nd arrow more up the boards and I struck.

From what I saw, maybe sometimes you have to play more toward the head poin and straighter and not trying to swing it out that much? Keep a tighter line. I had 2 guys 70 years old bowling with alot of experience and they said what happend was the oil got pushed down the lane.what kind of balls were the others on your lane throwing? Plastic, urethane? So my question is if the oil gets pushed down the lane, then it is time to move the 2nd aim point to the left a little?

#2 How can you tell if you made a mistake at the release point in your launch angle? Lets say you hit your 1st aiming point at the arrows, but how can be sure that you threw your arm in the same angle as the way that you lined up in your stance? Even if you hit the 1st poing you aimed for, there can be 2 reasons that the ball didn't end up at the 2nd aim poing even if the release was consistant. #1 drifting to the right and throwing the arm with a straighter trajectory. or #2 the pattern got drier and the ball started to hook earlier. I know that you can spot someone doing it, but how do you tell that you, yourself is guilty of that?

Explanation: I can tell if I didn't get out of the ball fast enough or broke my wrist. I can tell if I came over the top of the ball or I had more or less ball speed on it. I can tell if I hit my mark or didn't. The only thing I really can't tell right now is if I hit the correct launch angle I was aiming for.

Monday I started with my foot on board 25 using a match with bad ball reaction but I could hit the pocket.. 2nd game I was around 30 throwing across 12 out to 8 and had the best ball motion ever. 3rd game I couldn't get the ball out far enough right. At the end of game 3, my left foot was on 40 and I was still not getting it deep enough. I would get it out to around probably 12 instead of 8 and split or hit high or brooklyn etc. I could tell that I hit the mark but I don't feel I was getting the ball out at the right angle and I was throwing maybe straighter.WHAT? how is that throwing it straighter? Straighter than what?? I did feel like tonight I was doing what I was suppose to on Monday and that was opening my shoulders up and throwing to the right. But that is kind of hard to "feel" if your not used to it. Is there someway you can tell if you have the wrong angle by watching your hand as you realease the ball and see where the hand comes through at?

#3 Can you tame the backend reaction of your ball by just moving left?

Explanation: I think you can. In practice I threw a ball down 2nd arrow and also threw a ball accross 3rd arrow out to 8. The one that I did on 3rd arrow out to 8 didn't quite make it back to the pocket while the one on 2nd arrow did. On Monday I didn't have a ball that goes "long and strong" I just had a control ball and a medium low flare ball. I couldn't get the ball far enough to the right with the control ball.

I am just getting really frustrated at the 3rd game. Monday shot 255 2nd game and then shot 149 3rd game because I couldn't get the ball far enough right at all. People with low revs stayed on 2nd arrow the whole 3 games somehow. Now Wednesday shot 211 after missing 1 pin of a bucket and then shot in the 140's again because too much carry down and couldn't get the ball to hook into the pocketAgain, what were THEY throwing? You say carrydown, plastic I presume???? And there are coaches here that say carrydown does NOT exist???? HMMMMM.

At the end of game 3, my left foot was on 40 and I was still not getting it deep enough. I would get it out to around probably 12 instead of 8 and split or hit high or brooklyn etc. I could tell that I hit the mark but I don't feel I was getting the ball out at the right angle and I was throwing maybe straighter.

When you say that your left foot was on 40; do you mean at the start of the approach, or at the foul line? I strongly suspect that you may be drifting to the right, and that your drift might increase as you move left and try to play bigger angles.

Another possibility (one that I'm very familiar with) is you might be too square to the line instead of being open when you release the ball when playing very deep. Check out this video, specifically the shot at :34 seconds. It looks like Anthony is sliding at about 35; the ball is around 18 or 19 at the arrows, but gets to 7 or 8 at the breakpoint (it's hard to tell exactly, since he's in the way).

If you are sliding anywhere from 35 to 40 at the foul line, but can't get it outside of 12 at the breakpoint, there is another issue going on. I find that if I get my shoulders too far forward too early, and/or I lunge at the foul line, which are symptoms I have when I'm too late with my timing, I absolutely cannot get the ball to the right. I might miss only one board left at the arrows, but at the breakpoint, it's five or more boards left, resulting in a Jersey strike more often than not.

What might be very helpful, if possible, is to have a teammate video you in league when something like this is happening. There are many very knowledgeable coaches on this site that could see what's going on and help you to fix it. Remember, a picture (video) is worth a thousand words.

From what I saw, maybe sometimes you have to play more toward the head poin and straighter and not trying to swing it out that much? Keep a tighter line. I had 2 guys 70 years old bowling with alot of experience and they said what happend was the oil got pushed down the lane. {{ what kind of balls were the others on your lane throwing? Plastic, urethane? }} So my question is if the oil gets pushed down the lane, then it is time to move the 2nd aim point to the left a little?"

I believe everyone other then me was using regular reactive. I was using a plastic spareball for almost every spare but say a 2 or 5 pin. I wasn't the one that said the oil pushed down. Both of those people said that. We all agreed the backends were gone, atleast for the current time.

my left foot was on 40 and I was still not getting it deep enough. I would get it out to around probably 12 instead of 8 and split or hit high or brooklyn etc. I could tell that I hit the mark but I don't feel I was getting the ball out at the right angle and I was throwing maybe straighter. {{ WHAT? how is that throwing it straighter? Straighter than what?? }}

I might have used the wrong words. Straight to me is a completely vertical line. If you throw the ball and roll over 2nd arrow and go out to 10 board, that is a straighter line then throwing it from 2nd arrow to 8 board or 2nd to 5 board. Maybe I should have said tighter line? I am not sure what words to use on that.

The problem is the coaching. When I was with suzie, she told me to hit my mark and make sure the ball rolls over the 10 board or a board or so to the right of that 10 board where the right most range finder is. What she didn't tell me is that the more the lane is bowled on, the more that ball needs to be pushed further left. That whole part was left out. So I was left thinking even if I bowled 100 games, i need to get the ball to the 9 or 10 board at the range finder no matter what. Another mistake was her not saying that you need to aim with 2 points not just the arrows. use the arrows as the first point and then the range finder etc at the 2nd point.

Before I went to the IRTC to do the Cats testing, my entire world was just the arrows. I knew what a breakpoint was but didn't care. To me that is when the ball starts to hook. If it started to hook to early then I have to move, if it hooked later then had to do something else etc. I didn't care about the exit point either. I would ask how long the pattern is so that gave me an idea of where I should play and how much hook. If I moved left, I probably moved my breakpoint left as well without knowing it Now I have things such as launch angle and breakpoints I have to worry about now so there is alot more then just dealing with the arrows. I now have a better understanding that the breakpoint moves left as the oil depletes as well. I haven't had an opportunity to apply any of that yet because on Thursday the lane never changed since I was the only one in the track area and everyone else was plastic.

PJape: I believe I was drifting. The easy way to find out if I was drifting from now on is after I throw the ball I can look down at my left foot and see where it is. If it is more then 2 boards right then I know I was drifting bad.

Lefty Wall: As I cited in the article, the question is not whether or not there are streaks of oil that can be seen off of the end of the pattern. There definitely are. What I did was to have a tape taken after 24 league games of the area past the end of the pattern. What it showed was that there were only two streaks across the entire lane that were comprised of two units of oil. All of the others were less than two units with most being less than one.

As the USBC requires that at least three units of oil be applied from gutter to gutter for the entire length of the pattern, and we have all seen reactive balls miss WAY right, hang over the right gutter, and come screaming back to the pocket, logic dictates that modern reactive balls don't react to three units of oil, much less one or two. The hard part of the whole discussion is not whether or not the streaks exist. It's whether or not the streaks affect ball reaction. Personally, I don't believe they do.

Why are you guys so black n white?

Bear with me (and my damn bad english);

If you have a flaring ball in you hand and you release it the same every release you do in a league, follow will happen:

You release the ball the same, the track stays the same, the PAP stays the same and the ball rolls the same. If you have a track line with oil, that track line should touch the lane every time you release your ball. If you don't wipe the oil off the ball you can bet that you have carry down.

For us who plays every league on sports (not the damn PBA patterns) see this every time a guy bring up the tank, pitch black or any other stupid urethane ball at the beginning. On these patterns we have carry down like hell after these urethane balls.

But(!) the carry down affects little compared to the gravitation of the topography on the lane!

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