224 comments:

great video once again Bob. I can't wait for your next video. The teaser at the end of the video as peeked me intrest. One thing I would like to see you tackle is the potraly of Gays in games. You've already done women and african-americans so I think it is time for this one.

Dear Bob, I had a thought when I watched this like "There is a lot of porn out there made for men that is dedicated to men being dominated; couldn't this just be an example of a game designer playing to a particular fantasy of men." So I looked into it on my own and it seems like the person in charge of Bayonetta was a woman (Mari is generally a female name in Japanese). This doesn't preclude completely the concern that I had had that perhaps you were getting to excited about this but it certainly did something to alleviate it. I thought I would let you know. Also, looking forward to you next video.

Bayonetta's design certainly is interesting and by far dignifying. Still, according to only one woman, it probably doesn't do as much in terms of showing feminine beauty and gracefulness without resorting to lewdness as well as Cassandra from the first 3 Soul Caliber's did.

That's just one opinion though, and honestly as a guy, I don't have the proper insight to back it. I do, however see where she's coming from... even if I can't put it into direct words. Thinking of it though, they are two different characters and attempting to compare the two is... god, what is with my lack of analogies this morning? Bayonetta's simply a more sexual character than Cassandra.

Anyway, I can't wait for the new episode even if it's not going to be for fun. I'll disagree if I disagree, but don't worry about me or perhaps most of your viewers not liking it. Thanks for the warning, though; I'll keep it in mind while watching.

Great job as always Bob. I had always thought of Bayonetta being the first video game character that was genuinely aware of her sexualization, but you really managed to do a great job of looking at here design overall. Also, as Gregory said, Mari Shimazaki (whom I believe works for Platinum Games, not Sega as you mentioned in the review; of course I could be wrong) was in charge of designing Bayonetta and is a woman. What is really facinating is that I believe that the Producer, Yusuke Hashimoto, once said "The designer who created Bayonetta is a female herself, so the costumes and accessories show the touch and detail that could only come from a woman’s sensibility." I'm wondering about your thoughts on the matter.

Wow, Bob....wow. I'm not a fan of this genre (oh yeah...and don't have a next-gen console :/) so I haven't paid much attention to Bayonetta beyond rolling my eyes at the commercial--it looked like more of the same to me. But after watching this...wow. Like turning on a lightbulb. This is why I love this series, and will come back as long as you keep posting 'em.

Also...mean teaser. Not nice Bob. :( I want to hear more about it NOW, especially since it's usually so long in between episodes...:(

I'm going to agree with Cenobite on that one. Anyway, great video Bob, can't wait for the next one! (See what reverse psychology can do?) You did touch on something though and I had to let the reaction out:

Here in lies my bitch and a half about Nintendo though: its near complete lack of sexuality beyond traditional gender roles. The biggest surprise was Samus and if you put in the right code, you could play her in a one piece swimsuit. I'm not surprised but definitely saddened by their backpeddling on Birdo, the only transgender character as far as I know in gaming who at first was male who wanted to be female and then magically became female not out of any sort of story contrivance but out of fear of backlash. The rest of the characters are so squeaky clean that they fit in the models of how proper women were in the early days of film. Go to Archive.org and look up the popularity video, it makes references to "grils who park in cars with boys" and we all know what that means.

This does not mean I want Peach to put on hot pants and start shooting at everything she sees *cough only played FFX2 for the dresses, I swear! cough* but it would be nice to see some sort of new IP that is able to handle such things as gender, sexuality and orientation in a manner that at the very least acknowledges their existence.

I disagree with your conclusion that this isn't deep. You just did a character analysis man, this sort of thing is done in literary criticism all the time. Which brings me to say you deserve a cookie. (Ok, that sounded sarcastic but I really meant it.) I think this is the sort of thing video games need. We need people to actually take it seriously in some way. I do not think literary criticism techniques are out of the realm of video games.

Which brings me to my next point. I found it interesting that usually in literature a character analysis usually focuses on a character's personality and actions. In this you primarily focused on the appearance. Sure, Ophelia's beauty would be mentioned in a character analysis of Ophelia, but there is no way to talk about her hips or body proportions because, even on the stage, she is an intangible character. No one knows what Ophelia really looks like. Same thing with movies, the actors are just stand-ins for the characters. Video games allow the designers to design ever aspect of the character, making this sort of commentary possible.

I didn't quite agree with your generalizations about Cammy, I thought your mention of her to be a little shallow and weak. However, this is what makes criticism so interesting, you can never say enough to actually capture what the characters are. It is always open to discussion.

I'm really attempted to follow in your footsteps and do some critiquing of my own. I think too often we focus on if a game is mindless entertainment or not. Part of the reason I liked the first No More Heroes so much. I think there is a lot of room in video games for intellectual activity.

With all that said, I really don't agree with some of the points you made about Cammy and her independence being asexual. I also didn't quite agree with some of the other finer points; I thought that you were reaching in some areas. However, your overall thesis was interesting and I must say I do agree with, when I usually don't.

Anyways, I'm beginning to ramble on because I enjoyed this video the most, not because it wasn't intellectual but because it WAS intellectual. The topic matter may have been fun, but there certainly are things to say about such a topic. I don't really know how else to say, don't sell yourself short on such a video; it was wonderful.

Dum-dums! Yay! Good Greif, they're so very nostalgic for me. As a kid, my pharmacist would offer me a couple with my prescription, and I've kinda developed a sub-fetish that a dum-dum is much more sexier than a regular lollipop.

Although I'm not sure if he's being serious or not. It's really hard to tell at this point whether I should take him seriously or not, since I'm watching his videos less because they're funny and more because I want to hear his true, honest opinions of these games.

That's why I like you, Bob, you always explain your reasoning, like I do (most of the time).

Hey Bob, interesting video. Now I'm thinking of every female video game character I've ever liked, and trying to figure out if they are a Chun Li or a Camy lol. I'm curious as to what you think about the lead heroine from the Bloodrayne games. I'm sure she is no Chun Li. However I am unsure whether she is a Camy or not. And what about Quistis from Final Fantasy 8, Lulu from FF10 & FFX2, etc? I guess what I'm trying to say is: I think Bayonetta is definatley a very original character. However I think there are more flavors of female game character than just Chun Li and Camy.

Well, If I have to think in another character with the same style I would way Vanessa from P.N.03 (sure it`s not the exact same thing, but it`s close enough)

Both characters are h0t, have a high sense of her sexuality... vanessa personality is not the game biggest trait, but she cannot be called an "Ice woman"... you can tell she IS INTERESTED, but you surely can`t handle it...

I disagree. the game looks great though. i think she just looks like something derived from mannerism, as opposed to old Japanese or american cartoons and comics. maybe the goal was to be a work of art and not just eye candy. i disagree if only because past her face and boobs i don't think shes very attractive at all.

I have a comment about Samus though, just my opinion. Personally, I've always seen her as a tragic figure and not the frozen no-chance-in-hell bitch type. She was raised by the Chozo for most of her life and from what little we know, that means she doesn't get along well with humans.

Her formative years were spent secluded from her own kind. I'm guessing she doesn't really know how to relate to other humans on a social or "friend" level, much less a sexual one. Her only real friendship was with Adam Malkovich and that was pure military respect. After he sacrificed his life to save hers, she quit the police force in anger and confusion and struck out on her own.

This inability to connect with her own kind probably frustrates Samus, and compels her even farther into her life of rigid professionalism. With no friends or serious relationships, she focuses all her effort into taking revenge on the Space Pirates and hunting dangerous criminals.

The tragic irony is that she could have any human male in the galaxy but she doesn't know how, and she's so isolated that she doesn't even bother trying. I'm sure we'll know a lot more once Other M comes out, but I've always seen Samus as kind of a sad, lonely character. The atmosphere of the games certainly emphasizes that feeling of isolation.

I'll pass on the Bayonetta, mostly because the game is just a DMC clone with a lack of identity and because Bayonetta herself is a complete cinderblock who is so insecure about her "sexiness" that she has to pound it into people's brains every five seconds. I actually look for character in my females such as Aya Brea, Lenneth Valkyrie, the female cast of Odin Sphere, Elhaym van Houten, and Callo Merlose (it's times like this I'm thankful for a complete lack of libido).

You might know me as that NewGeekPhilosopher guy on The Escapist, but here goes:

I generally find ALL women in games intimidating, mostly due to the fact that on top of regular rejection, there's the fear that women won't want my genes. And that's because I have a condition that isn't looked too kindly upon on the internet at least.

Maybe it's just me. I find most women terrifying to talk to, and the objectified versions of what a woman is supposed to be makes me feel worse about myself, if that makes sense.

To make my point clearer, have you noticed there aren't any disabled game characters? Thought not. In the same way I don't see women in games as any real benchmark of what a woman is supposed to be, chances are somebody like Bayonetta would call me a retard. Referring to the Chun-Li example, her body type in the Street Fighter games, especially SFIV, gets her made fun of by other female characters, marking her as "outsider" or "other". If Chun-Li actually existed as a real person, she'd probably be bullied in high school or have some kind of inferiority complex over, well, her drumsticks.

Sometimes when I imagine who I'd be as a woman, (I'm a guy, but a sociology studying guy) I'd probably end up as Chun-Li rather than Cammy.

Thinking about women in games makes me depressed. Especially when I barely have the motor skills to play said games.

If I may take a guess at your next movie... Is it going to be about Achievements/Trophies and their effect on the modern gamer? 'Cuz I recently rented skate for the 360 for the first time when I found out that the skate.Reel servers were shutting down. While I'd never actually played the game before, I do like skating-style games and the game itself was on a list of games that I'd rent if I had a free rental, it took this to get me to rent the game...

Well, if you ARE doing a show on achievements, there are a few things that deserve mentioning: Firstly, the way that multiplayer/online achievements can unite a game's community. People come together to assist one another getting the achievements and often continue to help once the achievement has been attained(you should see the xbox360achievements.org messageboard regarding the skate.Reel achievements). Secondly, there are the achievements/trophies that simply don't work because the developers didn't ensure they did before the game shipped. These get under the skin of gamers, like a sign stating that the devs in question do not care. This gets even worse if the achievement in question isn't fixed in a timely fashion. If it were possible to edit one's play history on Xbox LIVE, there are games with perennially nonfunctional achievements that would be dumped en masse by the gamers.

The one major thing I like about Bayonetta is that she is a "strong" female character that the developers have actually designed as "strong" without thinking that "strong" is just another word for "raving homicidal ice queen bitch".

The last main female character I can think of that wasn't either an infant or a bitch was April from The Longest Journey (number 1, not 2)

Found this one a bit dull overall, I'm afraid. Probably because it focusses almost entirely on one character from a game I have no real interest in playing, so it's probably more to do with me than you. Looking forward to the next one though (then again I only skirt the edges of mainstream 'gamer' and 'geek' culture so I usually don't feel the need to go defensive when criticism is levelled). Your point regarding the way female sexuality is usually portrayed (there are a few exceptions) is well recieved, if a little obvious. It may be more systematic of a problem with how women are portrayed though, than a seperate issue.

@Cenobite: I think Bob's mentioned this in a video before, but the problem with gay characters in gaming is that there are very, very few of them. Gays are unfortunately still some ways from getting proper respect in mainstream society (esp. American, in Europe it's somewhat better but still not as great) and given that games often seem somwhere behind the social progression curve on a lot of these issues its probably not surprising that there's such a lack of gay characters. Add to this the extent that heterosexism/homophobia pervades the 'gamer' culture (just look at Xbox Live) and you can see why even more prgressive developers would feel a bit reluctant to try and include it. I remember a thread a while back on the escapist forums about this and the amount of people saying they wouldn't play a game with an openly gay protagonist was quite worringly large.Any video on the subject would therefore have to be something of serious criticism, if not an outright attack, on gaming culture in general. Although, given the announcement Bob made at the end of this vid, that's not to say we definitely won't get one.

@Jacob Martin: I agree with your point, but the thing is the underportrayal of disablities (both physical and mental)isn't better in most other mediums. To take films as a example, when disabilities are portrayed more often than not its centre-stage in some entirely emotive flick. There are some exceptions (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and The Station Agent are the only ones that spring to mind) but it's still a problem. There is also a very large (and largely ignored) problem with society in general when it comes to those with disablities but that's far too big a subject to go into here. So yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just that (as mentioned before) games have never been at the forefront of pushing for social change. As such, I'd say you're probably wasting your time focussing on them.Having said that, Japan has generally seemed to have a better track record on portroyig depression and neurotic disorders there may be something there. Still nowhere near enough to make games a worthwhile target on this matter though.

Loved your episode, but it seemed like Bayonetta seemed more like the Cammy in the end, just with an actual personality, at least, the way you described it.

I hope your next episode is on the Jrpg. I remember I sent you a few messages awhile back when you where primary on youtube about it, a few links too. I would love to hear what you have to say about it. As with many old time gamers, many of us look at them with nostalgic eyes and wounder why they can't be that good any more. "Probably because many of them where never that good." Why haven't they evolved, as nearly as much as others have, ect.

Nick said: "Found this one a bit dull overall, I'm afraid. Probably because it focusses almost entirely on one character from a game I have no real interest in playing, so it's probably more to do with me than you. Looking forward to the next one though (then again I only skirt the edges of mainstream 'gamer' and 'geek' culture so I usually don't feel the need to go defensive when criticism is levelled). Your point regarding the way female sexuality is usually portrayed (there are a few exceptions) is well recieved, if a little obvious. It may be more systematic of a problem with how women are portrayed though, than a seperate issue."

Yeah, I have to agree - personally, I've no interest in playing Bayonetta because a) its not my cup of tea combat style, and b) its seems aggressively Japanese in all the ways I hate.

But you are right about it been not just geek culture that has a problem potraying women and our culture in general. I suspect a root cause of this is the historical tenancy of western culture to suppress women in areas like the workplace and so forth, and whilst things are alot better now, there is still change needed, AND women are still trying to close the huge gap created by such a long period of not being able too.

As such, our culture doesn't have alot of women involved in the creative areas, and those that are are still trying to work out the best way to potray themselves in their own way.

First of, I want to say I adore your videos. I’ve only recently discovered Game OverThinker, but I watched all the videos. I think your bring a fresh, smart and funny voice to the game world and I really enjoy it.

But I do have to say, on this one, I completely disagree. I think Bayonetta make no sense from a design point. Her legs are way too long and clearly not muscular enough for the kind of fighting style she uses. Her head is ridiculously small for her stature (and no I don’t think she should have “baby doll” face) and the glasses really look like a teacher fetish more than “personal” style. I’m pretty sure that if she was real, most people would think she look weird/unattractive. I do agree with you that women in games tend to have limited personality, but I don’t think Bayonetta is that much of a break trough. She definitely feels like the kind of Femme Dominatrix that a lot of straight guys like (especially in Japan). Heck she spanks the bad guys into a guillotine… To me, she just feels like another of the “guys” fetish. The difference is, before it wasn’t as socially acceptable for guys to openly say that they might want a total Dom to overpower them instead of the cutesy princess/girl for them to overpower. Not that there’s something wrong with that, I just think saying Bayonetta is a step forward is a bit inaccurate. And heck, as a lady who enjoy her lady being dominant, I’m not saying it’s wrong to like it for what it is; eye candy. I think your other videos on women in video games were much more interesting and in depth than this one.

I’m looking forward to the next video! I really enjoy hearing your point of view on all topics! I’m curious about what it’s going to be! Also, I second one of the poster here: I’d love to hear your point of view of LGBT characters in video games (or lack of them).

bob, you son of a gun. that spoiler at the end just- darnit! now i cant sleep! gonna have to start making a chart,comparing notes on the forums, sitting awake at night thinking of whats coming out next month. something you dont like talking about and we dont like hearing... hmmmm.... a change of pace from your normal fun videos... darn you and your cryptic words overthinker.

Great analysis, Bob. This was the critical mass that finally got me to go out and pick up Bayonetta.

@Twinmill, I think you mean Sophitia, my favourite Soul Calibur character. Cassandra is her sister who appears in SC 2 and onwards (and is basically Ken to her Ryu, with practically the same moveset). Cassandra is definitely infantilized right from the start while Sophitia is a figure of grace, beauty and tenacity. Though she does conform to another traditional female role in fiction: the protective mother.

Of course, like all the SC series female characters, both sisters are reduced to simplistic fanservice in SC4. In fact, SC 4 version Sophitia is Bob's example of the female game character rendered with skinny arms to emphasize her chest.

I mostly agree with you, but I do have one point of contention. I think your assertion that Bayonetta has a properly proportioned head while, say, the DoA girls do not, is way off. If we go to some concept art here, like say http://platinumgames.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/2_bayonetta01.jpg you can observe that she's more than ten heads tall (no, that crazy topknot ponytail thing she has on top of her head doesn't count). That's not realistic proportions by any count. That's a really small head. Or a really giant body. Or something. Regardless, her head is, in fact, too small, just like people said when the design was initially published.

What she -does- have is a fairly realistically proportioned face, so if you look at her in a close up, such as http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3571/3469145765_1df2dde1e2.jpg, she looks properly proportioned - because that part of her is. It's only when you start counting her torso and legs that things start to look screwy. So she avoids having the "anime girl" look with the large eyes and small mouth, but that doesn't mean her body is properly proportioned.

Good video, overall, but that one point just struck me as glaringly out of place in an otherwise thoughtful presentation.

That said, Bayonetta isn't ENTIRELY unique in videogames as a character that is sexually intimidating rather than either the "ice princess" or "soft underneath" archetypes. Just... mostly.This presentation of female sexuality had already been touched on - if only having its surface scratched - by Bioware. In the Mass Effect series (the more recent one moreso than the first, but still in the first as well), a female Commander Shepard presents this kind of intimidating sexuality -- when her sexuality comes up at all.

And that's the thing of it, and why I can't give Bioware anything like full credit. This only comes up IF you play a female Shepard and IF you explore her romantic and sexual options. In the first game, it only shows up IF you take some of the more "renegade" options in your romantic pursuits (though in the second game, this element of her sexuality is largely unavoidable, if you pursue romance at all). Ultimately, Shepard is not an innately sexual character.

But when someone plays a female Shepard and explores her romantic (and, by extension, sexual) identity, she comes off not unlike Bayonetta -- wanting it, but extremely intimidating to a would-be parter -- and, in fact, most of the romantic options for a female Shepard are seriously intimidated by her advances, even as they're deeply grateful for the opportunity. She's one of the most physically adept women in the world, extremely confident and (unless you've done something horrible in designing her face), extremely attractive -- and she's after something. Even if you're a super-soldier yourself, can you measure up? Probably not.

But not only is it limited by the fact that it's hardly a mandatory character element, it's also different in that it puts this intimidating sexuality in the hands of the player. The player isn't just having her kill things, after all -- he or she is directing the very way that she interacts with others, making the portrayal considerably more consensual with the player's desires for her.

So... I've got to give Bioware partial credit. Female Shepard and Bayonetta have an awful lot in common, when it comes right down to it, with the biggest difference between them being that Bayonetta always (and constantly) flaunts her sexuality, whereas Shepard only does so if you want her to -- and even then, only in certain conversations.

Nail on the head there about being intimidating sexually. However, I have a really hard time seeing Bayonetta as a sexual character in that she's actually interested in sex. I'd rather say that sex is almost non-existent for her on a personal level.

If you look at how she moves in combat, I don't see her as imposing her sexuality, I see her as completely disregarding her sexuality (aside from the Torture Attacks, ironically shortened TA). When she fires her feet guns she's stretching her legs out in a way not to draw attention to her crotch, but without caring how widely her crotch is exposed, disregarding any sexual implications this might have for a woman to do. Even with the wicked weave attacks, she does these without accenuating her features in any way, but the revealing side-effect of the attack is just that she appears less clothed for a second or two.

As for the torture attacks, and elaborate finishing moves, she is sexual in a very aware sense, but this I feel is not for her to express herself as sexual, but rather taunting her enemies.

Just some quickly scribled down thoughts on a very good video. Good job!

Nail on the head there about being intimidating sexually. However, I have a really hard time seeing Bayonetta as a sexual character in that she's actually interested in sex. I'd rather say that sex is almost non-existent for her on a personal level.

If you look at how she moves in combat, I don't see her as imposing her sexuality, I see her as completely disregarding her sexuality (aside from the Torture Attacks, ironically shortened TA). When she fires her feet guns she's stretching her legs out in a way not to draw attention to her crotch, but without caring how widely her crotch is exposed, disregarding any sexual implications this might have for a woman to do. Even with the wicked weave attacks, she does these without accenuating her features in any way, but the revealing side-effect of the attack is just that she appears less clothed for a second or two.

As for the torture attacks, and elaborate finishing moves, she is sexual in a very aware sense, but this I feel is not for her to express herself as sexual, but rather taunting her enemies.

Just some quickly scribled down thoughts on a very good video. Good job!

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About Me

Bob is a part-time independent filmmaker, part-time amateur film critic and full time Movie Geek. He is heterosexual, a pisces, and a severely lapsed Catholic. He is a tireless enemy of censorship, considers his personal politics "Libertine" and enjoys acting as a full time irritant to overly serious people of ALL political stripes.