I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

chrisinbrasil

10-17-2000 04:25 PM

Aikido...

Hey Joe,
Where did you here that in no form of Aikido do practitioners grapple or strike? That is inaccurate. I happen to have practiced one or two things in my short life(see profile) and can tell you that Aikido can be integrated into real fights just as any other art. Not all Aikidoka believe that Aikido is the one and only, just like you´d likely take a severe beating from a friend and me if you used only BJJ. At a high enough level, perhaps Aikido can be considered complete because what you see happen in NHB would theoretically not happen were you skilled enough in Aikido, at least not in the way featured on TV. Your joints move the same direction no matter what "style" you´re in. Therefore you could use Aikido from the floor, standing, sitting, or otherwise. Maybe you shouldn´t judge a book by it´s cover.
My two bits. :)
At your service,
Christopher

Nick

10-17-2000 05:34 PM

ouch, that's rather one sided.

I suppose the reason people think Aikido is ineffective is that, in the dojo, everyone is in total cooperation. While usually not taking a fall for their nage, they do relax and blend into it. Why? Firstly, it lets them 'feel' the technique. I learn almost as much from being uke as I do from being nage. Also, resisting an Aikido technique (such as iriminage or sankyo) is a good way to hurt yourself.

I see my sensei go at it in the dojo, and I have no doubt they could do the same if they had to fight.

About BJJ- Never seen it, so I can't say. However, if someone is more skilled than you, there's two pretty good ways to get out of it.

1. Talk your way out of it.

2. Run.

Cheers,

adamk

10-17-2000 06:31 PM

What if you are not a very fast runner?

Anyways. I always thought the UFC NHB matches weren't actually NHB. I thought there was no eye gouging or biting? If I ever find myself in a positon where a BJJ guy is about to break my arm I am going to stick my thumb in his eye.

Adam
"it's not the martial art, it's the martial artist."

Kevin

10-17-2000 10:52 PM

Hey all!

I think that aikido is a way to get yourself out of a fight, not into one. Its not like you are going to walk down the street, punch some idiot, and start using your aikido. It doesn't work that way. The whole point is that you will be able to get out of a sticky position without killing yourself.

No disrespect, but why do I feel like we've had this discussion before? To say Aikido has no striking techniques is completely false. The concept of atemi is ALWAYS a part of Aikido. I don't know what style of Aikido you have witnessed, but the fact is that atemiwaza, or critical strikes, are necessary to all techniques of Aikido. We do not throw punches blindly, however, nor do we rely on sheer power to strike. Our intent, when we strike is not to "damage" the opponent per se, but rather to create an opening for our technique. So the statement "there are no practical striking techniques," is FALSE. We simply do not RELY on them to overpower an attacker. Brute force is never the Way.

Secondly, although what you term "real" matwork is rare, there are important pinning techniques which we use to subdue an opponent. The reason for a "lack" of grappling techniques is that Aikido concerns itself with multiple attackers. When you are grappling, you necessarily have to deal with only one opponent. What if you are accosted by several attackers? Are you going to grapple with one and hope that the others take turns?

You speak of Aikido's treatment of spiritual themes and harmony. This is not mere lip- service. They are fundamental in understanding Aikido techniques and principles. They are also a way of looking at life that does not rely on agression, but rather in acceptance and re- direction.

To an Aikidoka, their Art is meant to be used for self- defense, but it goes far beyond that into a way to become more than what we are. Why do you train? To compete? That's a laudable goal, but is competition the be- all, end- all of your training? Aikido gives you pure training, and self discipline; you compete against yourself. Do you train to become a bad- ass? That's fine, until someone better comes along, and beats the living crap out you. Remember, there's always someone better. I believe that those of us who regularly post here agree that it's not the Martial Art, it's the Martial Artist. A martial art is never more than the spirit and intent you put into it. Agression begets agression. Perhaps that's why Aikido doesn't "work" for you?

From your post, it is unclear whether or not you have practiced aikido, but I'm sure all us would certainly welcome you to train at any Aikido dojo. I would certainly recommend at least trying it out. Then you could at least decide for yourself its effectiveness from firsthand experience. Who knows, you might end up liking it.

andrew

10-18-2000 04:46 AM

Quote:

joeysola wrote:I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Oh stop it!
andrew

joeysola

10-18-2000 09:05 AM

The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

If you want to learn how to punch box. If you want to learn how to kick kickbox. If you want to learn how to grapple do Judo or wrestling. If you want to learn submissions do BJJ or submission fighting. I am saying that the strikes and grappling in Aikido have no application in a real fight. They only work if you are getting pushed around.

The reason Aikido striking and Grappling do not work is that there is no practical sparring to get rid of the worthless techniques. Why do you think that the most successful NHB competitors are athletes who compete in a martial sport.

I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos. The Aikido practitioners were slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage. What really amazed me is that they did not even react. How can an Aikido practitioner expect to defend against a quick strong jab, that even people with no martial arts experience can do, by taking large steps and with elaborate hand movements. The answer is a broken nose every time.

Just because Aikido has striking and grappling techniques does not mean that they work. It all depends on if they are practical and have been tested in actual NHB fights.

AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON. TRUST ME IF YOU GOT IN A FIGHT WITH A GOOD GRAPPLER OF ANY SIZE YOU WILL END UP IN A POSITION ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU CAN NOT USE THE EYE GOUGE.

RoninKivjoru

10-18-2000 09:23 AM

Aikido In UFC

First of all, I have to say that Aikidoists have no place in a UFC, that's the whole idea of Aikido. But there is much practical knowledge to be gained in Aikido, that is more than useful on the street. First being able to judge one's Ki, and knowing whether they pose a threat. I believe that any Aikidoist who has been paying attention to the entire training of Aikido, and not just the movements, should be someone who is very hard to suprise in a street. Especially if they've become acustomed to 'keeping their head on a swivell' as my boss used to say. Secondly, being in tune with your opponents Ki, once a confrontation is unavoidable, is the best way to keep yourself from getting hurt, if you move when they move and are simply not there when the strike or attack lands, you suddenly have an advantage. HAving my base in Karate, and not Aikido, I would probably revert back to it in a real fight. But, I feel the teaching of being one with your opponent, and feeling his Ki is invaluable, and would likely not have ever been able to survive a fight without it. I have yet to come across a martial art that puts so much emphasis on this philosophy, and whether I am using Aikdio techniquees, or Karate, these will help me in all aspects of my life.

Kevin73

10-18-2000 09:25 AM

I was curious, what were the names of those Aikido fighters in the UFC and what UFC did they compete in. The reason I ask is I own 1-12 on video and would like to rewatch those fights. Thanks.
Kevin

MikeE

10-18-2000 10:28 AM

This is in reply to Joey Sola.

Funny way of looking at things. I have been training in aikido for 12 years and in Rickson Gracie BJJ for 4 years. (I also have 6 years of Okinawan Kempo training). BJJ, if you step back and look at it, is very much like aikido in philosophy. You are trying to move one step ahead of your opponent so you can submit him with as little effort as possible. BJJ techniques require the same amount of relaxation as aikido. You are relaxed until the point it's time not to be relaxed. I have quickly gone up the rank in BJJ and I believe it's mainly because of my aikido. I find them very complimentary.
One thing, Joey, have you ever tried clinching on an experienced aikidoka? Since I teach in a cross training dojo I have had people try to test the effectiveness of aikido. You may be in for a surprise.
In aikido we stress ma-ai. (Proper distance) We often defend this with strikes and kicks. This doesn't play well into a BJJ cross trainers game.
I think your rash statement is more out of lack of information than anything. Before you knock any art, I suggest you try it.
As for usefulness in NHB fights. Once again you should probably open your eyes. Sakuraba uses what has been termed a "kimura". It is a common standing lock in aikido called Hiji-kime. He used this to wear down Royce and broke Renzo's arm in consecutive Pride Fights. If it wasn't aikido, how he used it to throw Renzo, was at least, very aikido-ish.

Also, I compete in local submission jiu-jitsu tournaments and I have utilized aikido techniques with great success.

crystalwizard

10-18-2000 11:15 AM

I can't imagine

any grappler actualy being able to get a grip on my sensei or any of our blackbelts. they're moving as the grab comes in. Like trying to grab smoke I believe was the description I heard.

Kelly

lt-rentaroo

10-18-2000 11:41 AM

Hello,

I've used Aikido techniques in several situations where the individual trying to cause me harm was a grappler / wrestler. Just as Mike stated in the above response, most grapplers and wrestlers do not respond well when confronted with an opponent who knows how to maintain proper distance. One encounter I had was during high school (many years ago), another student tried to "shoot" for my legs (a common wrestling takedown); as he bent over to reach for my legs, he left himself wide open for me to perform a very nice Kaitenage. Since that day, the wrestler (he was bigger than me and had supposedly won many trophies for his wrestling ability) has never even looked at me funny.
My point here is that Aikido can be used as self-defense, I know because I've proved it to myself and individuals who have tried to cause me harm. Aikido students do not train for competition (with the possible exception of Tomiki Aikido). The focus is on protecting yourself and becoming a better person, not on competition. I believe that a person must train diligently and have a strong grasp on the fundamentals in an art (whatever art it is) before they pass judgement on the arts effectiveness. It has been stated before, and I shall repeat it; It's not the martial art, but the martial artist.

ScottyC

10-18-2000 02:57 PM

Quote:

joeysola wrote:
The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

Wow! You "checked out some classes" and got "some lessons" from a friend, and now you know enough to say definitively and without a doubt that aikido has no practical application?

Either you're the world's greatest genius, or the world's greatest @##.

To paraphrase a wonderful aikidoka I have trained with and respect a great deal:

Quote:

Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't. Don't confuse the two.

I couldn't say it better.

Quote:

Just because Aikido has striking and grappling techniques does not mean that they work.

And just because *you* don't care for them doesn't mean that they don't.

Regards,

Scott

REK

10-18-2000 03:41 PM

Hey folks, new to the web, good to meet you. My response to this thread is probably more conceptual than the originator asks for. I think that we should remember that bugeisha, like the animal kingdom, exist in various evolutionary strata. We (as a society) need the angry, the adolescent and the aggressive. These are the individuals who people our armed forces (not that there is anything wrong with that...). Those who have evolved past these stages can appreciate conflict at a much more complex level than "you didn't punch me right". Ok, so your friend didn't impress you with his aikido. You couldn't find a use for it. Fine. Practice something else. You don't sound like someone for whom this martial art fits anyway. My grandfather said: the way you ask the question suggests you won't understand the answer. Best of luck in your continued training.

adamk

10-18-2000 03:46 PM

" AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD
USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT
FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT
TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON. TRUST ME IF YOU GOT IN A
FIGHT WITH A GOOD GRAPPLER OF ANY SIZE YOU WILL END UP IN
A POSITION ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU CAN NOT USE THE EYE GOUGE."

Thats right, I can't fight or grapple. I don't want to. I just want to protect myself. You can't lose if you don't compete.

-adam
"who said I had lots of training?"

George S. Ledyard

10-18-2000 04:34 PM

Fighting

Quote:

joeysola wrote:The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

You are right. I would recommend that you seek out a good Jeet Kun Do school if you are interested in fighting. Aikido does not have what you are looking for. After you have spent many years learning how to fight and are good and beat up and very tough, come back and you might find something in Aikido worth loking at.

I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos. The Aikido practitioners were slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage. [/quote]

No, you did not see two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the UFC. The folks you saw were just mid level students of the art. To my knowledge, none of the senior teachers of Aikido has participated in this type of contest nor are they likely to.

Aiki1

10-18-2000 05:20 PM

Quote:

MikeE wrote:This is in reply to Joey Sola.

Funny way of looking at things. I have been training in aikido for 12 years and in Rickson Gracie BJJ for 4 years. (I also have 6 years of Okinawan Kempo training). BJJ, if you step back and look at it, is very much like aikido in philosophy. You are trying to move one step ahead of your opponent so you can submit him with as little effort as possible. BJJ techniques require the same amount of relaxation as aikido. You are relaxed until the point it's time not to be relaxed. I have quickly gone up the rank in BJJ and I believe it's mainly because of my aikido. I find them very complimentary.
One thing, Joey, have you ever tried clinching on an experienced aikidoka? Since I teach in a cross training dojo I have had people try to test the effectiveness of aikido. You may be in for a surprise.
In aikido we stress ma-ai. (Proper distance) We often defend this with strikes and kicks. This doesn't play well into a BJJ cross trainers game.
I think your rash statement is more out of lack of information than anything. Before you knock any art, I suggest you try it.
As for usefulness in NHB fights. Once again you should probably open your eyes. Sakuraba uses what has been termed a "kimura". It is a common standing lock in aikido called Hiji-kime. He used this to wear down Royce and broke Renzo's arm in consecutive Pride Fights. If it wasn't aikido, how he used it to throw Renzo, was at least, very aikido-ish.

Also, I compete in local submission jiu-jitsu tournaments and I have utilized aikido techniques with great success.

Right On!

I have taught Aikido for about 18 years now, and I have trained extensively in Rickson Gracie BJJ as well with Luis Heredia. Aikido is the best art that I've see so far that is effective in it's technique and strategy when facing grapplers. It's funny - usually it's martial artists without grappling experience who tend to be closed-minded and such about BJJ, but here's a case of the opposite.

Aiki1

10-18-2000 05:41 PM

Re: Fighting

[quote]George S. Ledyard wrote:

Quote:

I would recommend that you seek out a good Jeet Kun Do school if you are interested in fighting. Aikido does not have what you are looking for. After you have spent many years learning how to fight and are good and beat up and very tough, come back and you might find something in Aikido worth looking at.

Good answer.

Quote:

I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos. The Aikido practitioners were slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage.

Quote:

No, you did not see two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the UFC. The folks you saw were just mid level students of the art. To my knowledge, none of the senior teachers of Aikido has participated in this type of contest nor are they likely to.

If there was ever Anyone in the UFC who Actually studied any Aikido, I never saw them. And I was into that whole scene.

Let me say this about Aikido and BJJ etc. If there is anyone who thinks they can take on good BJJ stylist and has not had any experience on the ground, they are dreaming. They won't be able to do much if anything, certainly not eye gouge or strike. Believe me. That said, Aikido is a very, very different approach to conflict than any other art. At the technical level, it's a very good way of dealing with someone trying to go to the clinch or get a double-leg takedown etc. But it's way more than that.

I teach some of my guys how to deal with kickboxers, grapplers etc. when they ask (they train in all sorts of other stuff.) I don't teach them how to square off with other fighters and best them, I teach them how to look at the whole thing differently, and not buy into the fight itself. It's a whole different atory. (And yes, at the technical level they do get very good results.)

But Aikido is way beyond that too. That's just a particular application. It's a whole different ball game.

Nick

10-18-2000 07:04 PM

Couldn't said it better.

[Edited by Nick on October 18, 2000 at 06:07pm]

Yozzer

10-19-2000 04:35 AM

I think it says a lot about the originator of this thread that they should post something so contentious but want to remain anonymous. Giving no indication of their credentials or identifying any of their instructors.

Just to reiterate what has been said before, go away and learn how to fight and come back when you want to learn how not to.

Paul

ian

10-19-2000 07:11 AM

how to get a popular thread

There is a point, in that many people do practise Aikido without reference to the real world situations - however there are many that do not. Both my previous instructors were 2nd Dan in Karate before going into Aikido and there are also many Judo people that come into it (often through injury from both these sports).

I think a good knowledge of martial arts and fighting techniques (including the speed and power with which a boxer can hit you) is essential. Luckily Aikido should also be teaching you good strong Karate style attacks, and judo style strangle holds. After doing Aikido for only two years I managed to help the local karate instructor (who was a friend) who had been wrestled to the floor of a night club by a local bully. A good strong strangle hold from behind, and withdrawing him into a prone position was enough to make him give up.

You confuse Aikido with sports. Aikido is a martial art and it is an aid to your self defence. You do not 'Aikido' someone. If you are in a real situation you use everything that you can (strikes, grapples, chokes etc) but Aikido has the benefit of helping to maximise your body movement during such situations, to get out of the way of attacks, and to do things which people who do sports such as wrestling, karate or judo, would not be able to do due to these moves being illegal in their practise. Their are no illegal techniques in Aikido, even though we usually practise in a formalised manner there is always room for a beginner to ask, but what if I did this?

(This is what I find frustrating about ground work in Judo, some things just aren't allowed).

ian

10-19-2000 07:21 AM

eh?

Joeysola,

I would agree that ju-jitsu does dominate UFC, but do you not know that Aikido and ju-jitsu have similar roots? Aikido has been adapted to reduce injuries of your opponent and to enable full contact without damage. However, there is definately an argument for making some Aikido clubs have a stronger martial attitude.

Also, if UFC is no hold barred, what happens when someone comes in with a knife? Or what happens if there are three people attacking one. What do you mean that doesn't happen?, it does in real life, and although a wrestler might be able to take someone to the ground and choke them, he won't be able to do it if his bowels are littered across the floor.

P.S. don't take the responses harshly, you've obviously touched a sore point for Aikidokas; but train in the right manner for enough time and you'll realise that Aikido is very realistic (I have used it many times from both armed, unarmed and multiple attacks and I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for Aikido).

SmilingNage

10-19-2000 07:29 PM

there is good in all martial arts dare i even say tae kwan do, but thats another matter. to say aikido isnt practical only shows how much of a fool u trully are. from what u have wrote, u should have never opened up your mouth. until u have put some time in training in any martial art, keep your inaccurate points of view to your self.
it sounds like to me you just wanna study martial arts only to learn how to hurt others. and that for sure is the wrong motivation. because you will always come across someone who is bigger and stronger. then u will be in for a rude awakening. and eventually in those others arts as u get older your "power" will deminish. aikido is for life as it does not pit strength against strength. it agrees with the flow and redirects it. allowing many to practise aikido well into their later years
so please if you are gonna check out the martial arts, please take the time first to evaluate what yourself. if you find you are training to just become the biggest "bad-ass." do us all a favor and dont train. the martial arts are a way of life not a way of taking life. take the time and realize the martial arts are for changing yourself and not to be a point to focus agressive behavior

George S. Ledyard

10-19-2000 08:32 PM

Re: Re: Fighting

Quote:

Aiki1 wrote:
If there was ever Anyone in the UFC who Actually studied any Aikido, I never saw them. And I was into that whole scene.

There was a preliminary match which wasn't actually shown that featured a Tomiki guy. But he was a young guy, under thirty and couldn't haver been all that highly ranked. Anyway, he lost.