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BTD Forums / Nonnie Clubhouse / Disgusted by w-gain...there has to be another way

Posted by: Goldie, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 1:19pm

This daily struggle to not have a life is getting to me. I can be good and then maybe maintain my weight. By good I mean not this and not that.. OK - I can do that .. Yet, living that way takes a toll when doing it day in and day out.

With every day I get up, I know that I have to deprive my SELF of all sort of things. Not just foods that are avoids, but food all around.

I have been on BTD for 2 decades, and ok I have had great success, without it I would be deadly ill, and OOOOOOBESE.. instead I am grateful to be ok healthy and only about 50 pounds over weight...

That alone is not good enough... It is not a situation over which I feel 'bad' but rather furious!!! I am so worn by having a big belly, looking at me is discouraging and in the end disgusting with dread of living live all over again and again by severe deprivation, just to maintain what I have.

I am getting to the point where I wish I could be fat enough to get a lap band inserted so that I can only eat a ounce at a time... Yet I know that I would be blowing trough that like so many that have failed. I know I would be one of the failures, somehow I would find a way to give in and find the foods I should not have and then would still gain the weight, just as I do now.............................................

I am disgusted at some of us having to jump through loops and hoops to just stay where we are and face failure every day, every moment, every milil second of our existence! I am disgusted at living this life, afraid to be, afraid to look at life in future, afraid to exist.

I am not depressed, I am not incapable of facing life and I will succeed even if only in my OWN standards or doing the best I can and no more, no less...

I am NOT complaining about this. I am just stating a FACT of my life. I am not loving MY life as a person who gains weight, BEING a person who has nothing to say about who and what I am, just because it is pre-destined... existing in my GENES!

I wonder if I would consider life (itself) for future generations who face this way of life as worth it? I wonder if it is not life or death nessacary ot find the genes that would allow some kind of different life. Maybe a gene that would quiet the desire to eat, born skinny, instead brought into a life that has no appreciation for pretty looking food, or for taste buds that do not connect to the pleasure part of the brain, or a stomach acid base that would not ask for any kind of food to satify living.

I would expose myself as lab rat for any experiment that would work toward some kind of results that might help future generations of a different life, or life style. I am not dramatic here, just bitter and frustrated at every moment of my future life. I would gladly forfeit years of my life if only it served that purpose.

I have one part of my family that has two generations of overweight people, young and middle aged. They suffer the dilemma just as I do, just WORSE, as they never learned about BTD and its obvious advantages. I feel for those kids who are FAT and have no life.. and don't tell me that they do, society and the statistical life expectancy has long ago made their life a daily FAILURE!

No matter the kids being A students, no matter the parents working every day to make it on their own and succeed by all other standards, YET made to feel (from within) and from outside as if they are the worst parents of all time, and the worst humans ever walking the earth... and THANKSGIVING coming up.

What is good about Thanks-giving - meals, that engender nothing more than FEAR of adding 5 more pounds! (I gained 8 pounds sinc ethe storm while hosting others in need.) What is good about life when living that way is all the have... What good is it, when those parents feel fear of not surviving long enough to see their children graduate, get married IF some 1special person would consider a date with one or the other, and -nearly- forget the dream of getting married.

Being over weight, having the genes that create this way of life is no fun and there is not a x/asfgh single reason for looking forward to life day after Thanksgiving. I have a choice to stay home for the many parties I am invited to, in fear of food being served, or I can go and hate every moment of living after... My stomach is sticking out as IF pregnant now, how much more will it stick out after the next meal?

I am so tired, and I know I am angry as all HECK at the powers to be that took away the Dexatrim product that used to help with all that I express above. I would gladly have died yesterday if I could have had a life without fear! I would gladly die today, if that was a price to pay for others to have a life without the disgust I feel. I had no side effects from the Dexatrims of the 70's and I feel deprived and victimized with not being able to have that supplement for my life.

I am so much more damaged by being over-weight, than I would be damaged by a Dexatrim of old. I dammmm the people that condemn me to the life of misery and disgust... I condemn those who have no concept of just how miserable MY life is WHEN I THINK of MY future and my life...

If dying was the price to pay.... DAMMM it-- I pay that price anyway!!!! I will die over weight, and with illnesses from that --unless I develop cancer! That is the one concrete thing I have of look forward to. At least I will be skinny then-- the day before I die. I am not afraid of cancer for that very reason. I see the silver lining in that ( SOOOORY I apologize to all who have that terrible illness... ) but living my life is like living a repetitious nightmare every time I do NOT sit HERE and type something/ most of the time to 'help' others... As soon as I go away from here I am going to cook two eggs.... I am only allowed 1... so, guilt starts before I click send and the disgust is rearing its ugly head even as I finish this post. Any who read to here, in this rant, THANKS for reading all the words and trying to understand....... and...... please just go away, if you do not understand - I have no 'words' to make skinny people understand. I am tired of trying and tired of doing all I can not to let me get depressed. I am not depressed, I am disgusted... that is alll...

Posted by: Amazone I., Sunday, November 18, 2012, 3:03pm; Reply: 1

sorry dearle don't get ya here... lately... last year you chanted in higest sounds about hcg-pillies' or even injections or drops and weightloss from da finest and now justamente the contrary ??).... what has happened ??) .... :o :-/(eek)(scared)(huh)(shrug)........need a glimps about such issues... please ;) :D

and the quickest and best to drop weight... c'mon dearle...*to fall in love*... or justamente only good feelings to..for somebody ??) ;) ;D..... :K)

Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 3:20pm; Reply: 2

How long will you wait before you just go to the University of Bridgeport for a consultation?

Sometimes we just need someone else to help us.

Posted by: Chloe, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 4:41pm; Reply: 3

After reading your post, Goldie and thinking what to respond (and before I read what Andrea wrote) I was going to say "if you haven't seen Dr. D and the shift and keep thinking your answers should be coming from this forum then you haven't reached out to the ONE place that can help you really get to the bottom of your weight problem.

Although being supportive is what we all do here, I don't see how anyone here can help you ifyou're trying to do this on your own....keep adding all sorts of protocols that aren't part of theBTD or GTD and then find yourself back where you started. Whatever you're doing and have beendoing obviously isn't working for you...and if you don't want to turn your power over to the clinicto help you, then what exactly is gained by repeating your problem without taking the advice ofso many people who are trying with the best of intentions to get you the right help.

Why not wake up tomorrow morning and just DO IT! Call the clinic for an appointment to seeDr. D and the shift at Bridgeport.

It is NOT the method I am lamenting.. that is in tact.. it is not support I get that HERE.

I lament over the facts that I have Genes that allow my body to be fat.. I have two sisters all grown up after me in 2 other families.. today we are middle aged and all look like the self image of each one of us.. ==== Genes.. Genetics.. Thanks to DR. D. I can understand at least that much.. IMMMMAGINE what life would be for the ones who have no idea of the WHY!!!!

I UNDERSTAND and that is a good thing.. YET: I do not have to like it!! I am ONLY 50 pounds over weight Because of BTD and all the rules and regulations.. without it I would be 300 over the scale.. I have no allergies, I have no illness that is because I am following BTD.. even if I do switch in this way of eating that combination .. It does not matter that I gain even.... WHEN I gain I do so 'knowing' why.. what a relieve that is!! I am clear about the reasons and the consequences.. I am positive in all I say.. I am not able to get a GENE transplant.. I am not able to make me want less just because of all sort of advise.. and when I am hosting people who have a need for care giving then my going off center is perfectly OK all the way.. because I UNDERSTAND.. Thank you Dr. D.

ISA ... Yes - a whole new set of hormones would be just great.. Isa where is that man I could be dreaming about.. ??? You got it..

there is no self pity.. not today.. just indignation for the GIFTS given to me in the cradle much like the cradle of Sleeping beauty.. the gift of thorns with the spindle of good... and YES: still in MY life the good outweighs and wins against the bad.. like I said.. be cause I KNOW and understand.. and have all the support, and I was to the clinic.. and still my GENES have NOT changed..

Mitigated to be less bad, yes but gone NOT! and that is what I rail against.. or for the answer in some pill that would create the peace I had with Dexatrim of old.. for at least 10 to 15 years.. youth was some help too. and those hormones.. yes- indeed- best reason to go sailing.. ;D

For ME, I am guilt free.. I am what I am, I can cut me some slack, and I can start the day over again. for me it is way past the learning to be a grandmother NOT the mom.. a world of differences! The pleasures in KNOWLEDGE - without the guilt of ignorance. Wow what a gift by some fairy god-father called Dr D! and BTD... 8)

Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 6:09pm; Reply: 6

Darling Goldie your version of the BTD is perhaps a little loose lol you cheat often and you then have to pay the consequences. and you know this really.

much love to you but get a practitioners version of swami done. that way everything will be accounted for and there will be now more excuses.

50 pounds overweight means you are getting too much sugar from somewhere. ice cream, pineapple, you will know oxo

Posted by: ruthiegirl, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 6:40pm; Reply: 7

Goldie- how you look in the mirror shouldn't be important. You need to focus on health, and trust that your body will let go of extra weight when it's ready to do so. Looking in the mirror and being disgusted at your appearance helps nothing, and only creates more negativity that may prevent you from losing the weight.

Who cares what size clothing you wear or where the weight is concentrated?

I UNDERSTAND and that is a good thing.. YET: I do not have to like it!! ... I am not able to get a GENE transplant...

If you don't like yourself, how do you expect others to like you? Accepting and loving yourself as you are, then working to change things that will benefit you (and others) is what life is about.

Some of what Dr. D. did with the Genotype Diet and more with SWAMI is to provide a path whereby you can turn off some genetic response and not have to "fight" the daily battle with the scale. It does require sticking to the plan, both food and exercise, though...

Posted by: Chloe, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 7:37pm; Reply: 9

Goldie, I think you might want to speak to Peppermint Twist and others who have managed to overcome their huge battles of the bulge...Notice their commitment was highly focused...not a random thing where theit whole diet goes out of the window due to unforeseen circumstances like parties, storms and company staying at their house...These success stories came frompeople who wanted to overcome their struggles with food, become healthier not just focuson their personal image..... There are so many people who have stayedthe course because they really wanted to reach their goals no matter what..Nothing got in their way. These people exercised and ate right every single day. I'm afraid you're thinking you can'tdo this...that there are too many social situations that cause you to cave in...Well, this is whythe Fresh Start thread started....for just these reasons....and this has helped so many peopleto acknowledge their own repetitive self sabotaging behavior and resolve to change it...

I've invited you more than once to join our very friendly Fresh Start thread and post your meals... share your struggles on a daily basis and receive the kind of support we always give to one another, whether it be a personal struggle that throws you off base or something larger than that. Being accountable for every meal might change your outlook, although this is totally upto you to figure out what really holds you back.. Sometimes you just have to admit that you need help...and grab the hands of the people who are reaching out to you. I can't help but notice that you become very defensive of your genetics every time someone recommends the clinic. This is exactly what the clinic is designed to help you with -- your genetics, your diet...and monitor you and work with you until you reach your goal.

Once again, I invite you to visit the Fresh Start Thread...and can't figure out exactly why you aren't wanting to go to Bridgeport. My husband and I go often and can't say enough about the wonderful experiences we've had...Everyone there is friendly, supportive and knowledgeable...How great would this be for you to be able to turn this over to professionals who KNOW how to help you, regardless of your sisters and other family members who have been struggling with their weight too! Nothing is more important than your health and nothingfeels more empowering than getting better.....I agree with Ruthie.....forget about what size you wear and quit weighing yourself....Just focus on eating right, one meal at a time! Saying this with the best of my intentions....Please don't be offended....Just wishing you'd take some really good advice -- which for some reason, you don't want to do it...Can you please explain what keeps you from going to the clinic? You seem to avoid answering that pertinent question. It's not even that expensive to see the shift...and think of how great you will feel if you left with more hope than you presently have. DO IT! Wake up tomorrow and make an appointment. I'l bet you'llfeel good just by taking that one small step :)

Posted by: Susana, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 8:13pm; Reply: 10

Hi Goldie I hear you so loud and clear :(

By not ever giving up on the struggle I one day realized it is all in the brain. Attitude towards life, towards yourself, your weight, food etc.

I managed to put an end to my cravings and their consequences by finding a project for which I felt passionate. All my energies went for the project none to my cravings.

Unfortunately that project had a horrid ending and I went back to thinking on my cravings. To stop them I started smoking.

A little over two month ago I discovered the most effective help I have ever received, other than the project lol! A book by Kelly McGonigal, "Maximum Willpower" also published as "The Willpower Instinct".

Absolutely outstanding. I want to start a tread with it to give it notoriety. I am waiting to... well how to focus the thread to honor such brilliant work. It is also well written. I listened to the audiobook and it is brilliantly recorded.

So far it is two months since I quit smoking and am happy with the way I am eating.

Best wishes and do not give up as it will not solve anything.

:K)

Posted by: Goldie, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 8:24pm; Reply: 11

ach it is not the size... but it is like having dark hair when one lives in a society of light colored hair..

it is not that I don't stick to BTD.. It is that I have to stick..

and it is not about the HOW, it is because.. like no you can not go to a party its a school night, or no you can not ever have a candy without outrageous guilt EVER again..

It is not that I am upset that I HAVE DIABETES, EVEN WITH GOOD NUMBERS.. IT IS THAT I have THE DIABETIC GENE! I was borne with diabetes, and even if I where to drop all the weight and did all things like marching around the neighborhood for 2 hours every day.. I still would have to give up every morsel of pastry.. or feel the consequences.. Its about those issues..

I have had bad neropathy, I was able to spend 25 thousand dollars on equipment that has made the neuropathy pain a thing of the past.. I still have the neuropathy thanks to the diabetes gene, and sleeping is a luxury. One precious hour at a time maybe.. then its a hot flash or going to pee, all because of the diabetes GENE!! It is what makes me Gatherer.. it is what it is and I do not have to like it..

IT is like being pursued by a wolf, constantly knowing at my heels.. one slice of this or that, one spoon of salad dressing, or one extra cup of soup and hell breaks lose..

I can run as fast as I like the wolf is still there.. he never sleeps, or she never rests, always knowing on that bone waiting to find a moment of weakness to jump on me.. his name is 'frustration'.. Guilt is not in my vocabulary.. I be damed if I condemn me, my self and I..

Guilt is for others.. I have spent 850.- at the clinic.. been there done that.. I spent tracking down all I know of. I have tried all that there is, and I have succeeded against all the odds.. I am not full blown diabetic, I am not on pills and chemical cocktails.. I have no cancer, a plus in my family, I can look good when I am all dressed ready to go.

I have friends here, and I have knowledge.. I can offer others so much of what I know and work with even (my equipment), I share my life.. and still,

I wish I was three inches taller, as I then could be 'warrior', and eat like one needing much strength and food for energy. Instead I am blessed with a GENE that will hold on to every morsel, and go searching for more, all the while splitting each calorie into ever smaller pieces just so it can grow on my belly.. IT is that thrifty search that pis'es me off... Wolf - go away already.. go to the darkness from where you came.. from a place long ago that said to the skinny kid on the block.. eat .. eat and eat again.. ahhh for those days.. without wrinkles.. ! :-/

the inevitable.. like they say in cancer.. first there is outrage, then there is sadness, and eventually acceptance.. I have all three at one time.. Shrug my shoulders and walk away.. away from what? to go where? toward what? ??) more of the same.. ::) :o

at the end today ... all I say : Holidays are a world of their own.. good days are great, bad days are .. well not so great... and still I AM healthy, a few wrinkles at 69 in a day or four.. who should care.. yet I do.. and in THAT is LIFE!.. and in there is this full fledged GENE theory and therapy.. I am looking for the day when they can add the 'not hungry' Gene to my other ones.. or the 'not wanting' Gene, or the gene that makes happy hormones that make one fall in love all over again.. (the best cure for over weight) .... ai, aiii, aiiii, be careful what you ask for you might get it.. ! :o or a dance routine that drops off all the negative variations on the same, same old.. :P

Posted by: Susana, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 9:20pm; Reply: 12

It is still the way you think. I do not want to sound harsh but from the original message you seem as discontent from not loosing weight as by food restrictions.

If you learn how your brain works you'll notice the feelings of restriction is your brain playing games with you, and actually be thankful it does so. It is a sign of health lol!

In terms of your size, you would not have written such a post if you thought you were taking care of yourself and were thankful of having a Rubenesque body.

I would say one does not feel frustrated if one is enjoying what is doing and has positive expectations on the actions.

Again, I do not want to sound harsh, but reading the book mentioned in my previous post just helps one understand how the pressures of society only make us... well write the post you did, and, better still, gives one resources to deal with them.

I hope you soon find well deserved peace. :K)

P.S. As long as you are not doing anything you do not want to attract attention to, given societies need for new experiences, it should be fun being dark haired among blonds lol!

Posted by: Goldie, Monday, November 19, 2012, 11:52am; Reply: 13

P.S. As long as you are not doing anything you do not want to attract attention to, given societies need for new experiences, it should be fun being dark haired among blonds lol! HAHAHA yes indeed..

MY issue is not the diet, the weight even- if it did not go up at all sort of times.. Just to maintain stayus qua I have to be 95% beneficial compliant... NOT on easy task, and no fun all the time.. at other times it is fun and OK mentally or physically.

I have to give up ON a daily basis: all desserts, 90% of all fruits, all starches, all sweet drinks --THIS on a daily minute by minute basis is just not fun at all.

I am a person who loves certain foods more than other foods, yet I am like the alcoholic who just can not have some of the things in his life. I have to live with that, or pay a big price every time I sway..

Does the alcoholic have a right to banter against his body reaction to alcohol, just as I do when told (directly or indirectly) I can not have the foods that 'feel' happy.

Yet that is not my rant..

MY rant is, that there is NO way for the alcoholic to get a gene exchange.. nor can I so far - get a Diabetic Gatherer Gene exchange. AND in absence of that possibility, I say there has to be a better or different way..!!!

Years ago people died after 3 years of a diabetes diagnosis.. today we have a pill that allows much more time if I also eat better or EVEN BETTER stay on BTD for diabetes....

BUT there ought to be some future when people like me ought to be able to think that MAYBE there might some day a pill or powder that can encapsulate sugary foods, or neutralize it to the same degree the diabetes meds 'cap' or neutralize (insulin triggers) receptors.

I wish there was a way to get the appetite suppressant that worked for thousands and have the harmful parts taken out and NOT JUST ELIMINATE the whole pill. That is my issue of the day.. tomorrow it might be an other..

..... like, there ought to be a substance, that could be ingested and would blow up in the belly to create fullness to prevent food intake, or some fizzy something...that acts like air bubbles that could be inflated once it is was swallowed for it to push against the part of the upper stomach that triggers appetite. .. some thing similar like the lap band and yet even lap bands can be blown through.. one reason why I have not gotten one so far. I might some day, I might do it to get a break IF ever I will trust MY psychy to create the atmosphere that will make me succeed.

I just say: there have to be other ways - to make life different. And that is this THREAD purpose.. well purpose might be a strong word.. but that is the intention...

You see: I wonder.. if I where to wear a corset like the olden days ladies did pulled real tight, might that reduce wanting foods, or better yet.. certain foods.. Ha ha how to get a skinny waist haha.. instant results.. but I would need a 200 pound strong man to pull on those laces to make them tight enough.. SO, ISA you see, I am full circle back to you and hormones ;D..

I am soon going to 'think' to try Hormones (again) just to get rid of the (repeat every 45 minutes) all day Hot flashes. I think THAT has something to do with my frustration as well.

an alcoholic has to stop drinking all alcohol to survive long term. a diabetic has to give up only most sugar to survive long term. but the artificial's in life must be given up completely imo. by that I mean all e numbers aspartame, fillers, cheap salts, fluoride, chlorine I water.

And you must make a pleasure out of simple meals, taking time and patience to make them wonderful, this is easier if you are not working too much for example when you are retired but it is needed more and more as you age if you have been living an indulgent life style in the past, as most of us have.

I though giving up wheat was ridiculous three or fours years ago. now it is easy to be without it 99% of the time. like smoking I tried to give up for 20 years without success, now I can't believe how stupid I was for smoking and wouldn't dream of smoking.

I used to get smashed every weekend for 30 years. eating and drinking pretty much like a king, without thought. now I can't believe how much money I wasted, I spent more than most people earn in a week on alcohol in one night. now I know that i can't do that any-more, but more importantly I don't want too.

So I guess what I'm trying to say g oldie is you have to bite the bullet and realise that there is no easy way and then just get on with it and make it as pleasant an experience as possible. I now enjoy making everything myself from toothpaste to sprouted broccoli and in between. I make it the best I can and the most efficiently I can. I take ozone machine apart to figure out how they work and then make a less expensive version. I read in stead of watching so much television, I study diet and love it. but you need good company that is real and unselfish I am lucky to have that. and I think you need a reason to be strict on yourself for that I have Emily. you have to figure out your version. you are a free spirit and a decent real person, that's why people on here love you so much even though you are quiet mad in reality ;) oxo

Posted by: Goldie, Monday, November 19, 2012, 1:49pm; Reply: 15

Hey thanks all... :)

8) policychecker I knew YOU would get it ;) hahaha maybe you could serve as the IMMMMAGINARY on hand guru when the going gets tough.. ;D :K)

I love it.. and yes you are quite correct in all you wrote...

I agree cooking is the easiest and best part...! saves money too.

What of the chlorine? you sure about that??? Maybe not all? my house is chlorine free from the intake pipe on...

yet, I am contemplating MMS... some friends have great results with it...

A few things might help, Pantothenic acid is one I should do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think everyone should...

HEY CONGRATS ON all that drinking and smoking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I liken going out to dinner and then NOT eating the dessert (which comes with dinner) like a person having to give up smoking or drinking alcohol as --- Going SOBER ---

It takes time to have SOBER become 'everyday' like. But the mind does eventually let go of some of those repetitious 'wanting' (addiction) thoughts.. I am preaching this to a 81 year old person right now who gave up smoking after 60 years while living with me the last three weeks!!!!!!!

She still feels fear, I feel rage or indignation... Acceptance will come, SOME day... :o

All that I can do I am... ( ok some I stumble) as you know.. :'( (gave you 'heck' for the same some while ago- but you learned quickly! ::)

YET, I wish for changes for the next generations.. I FEAR for those who where borne like me, 9 pounds and 10 days late.. It mattered then already! Those Genes are really a trip./. ::)

I wonder if there could be GENE adjustments with SOUND waves.. Ahhh need to try that.. ??)

Posted by: Amazone I., Monday, November 19, 2012, 2:53pm; Reply: 16

oum sigh (dizzy)..tell me what will change if I blame myselve for nonniehood and then even worse being an AB??) ;).. I even have the bla's that I've to take care about breastcancer in my genetic readings... B U T I know that it musn't be nor happen.. I do my preventive workout (ok not that much for movements ...very (scared)(shhh)(hehe)but remember : thought become things... and so far choose the good'ones ;) ;D :K)

and ok would you like me to send you a swich-guy ??) ;) ... :X(evil)(funny)(goofy)

there are some little guyes... to be found in Migros or CooP ??) ;)... soon about 6th of December.....ok I'll look for a *spelty-formation* :D(smarty)(smile)

ok ok understood... no dreamings... nor eatings but merely: go for appointments or better said meetings??).... I think todays everywhere there are beautiful *etre- humains* around us... BUT we've to remark em as mentionet :D :K ;D

Don't fear for the next generation Goldie. My kids were stuck with similar epigenetics as you and me, but they've gotten a much better start in life. They may not follow BTD/GTD 100% of the time, but they don't have to. They're avoiding most of the problems we faced as youngsters because they have the information on what healthy eating really is.

Meals at home are healthy and compliant, even if they eat junk food at parties. They know what's healthy for them, so they can be extra compliant when they get sick.

I know you have children and teens in your life who aren't on BTD and you have little control over their diets. But when they're adults, if they face any health problems, they know to ask you. They know what you've already told them, even if they couldn't follow it at the time. Even if they pick up BTD/GTD/SWAMI in their early 20s instead of in childhood, they'll be in much better shape than you or I. As a teen and young adult,

I was eating lots of corn, whole wheat, and soy products, and minimizing or avoiding red meats and poultry, because I thought it was healthier! Had I found a copy of ER4YT in college, instead of all those vegetarian books, I may have avoided a lot of health problems in my own life. The book hadn't even been published yet when you were 20!

So go easy on yourself, and just focus on your own health needs. You're not "deprived" because you can't eat sugary junk. Really, nobody should be eating that stuff! There's no reason to feel deprived when eating meat and veggies and drinking pure water. If others choose to hurt themselves with cookies at party, you're not missing out and the others will pay for that "dietary sin" in one way or another.

Posted by: Goldie, Monday, November 19, 2012, 8:14pm; Reply: 18

Wow two good posts.. well yes.. we are better of no doubt about that.. and we KNOW at least why we feel miserable when we do.. For decades after decades, I used to see this and that doctor only to be told some non-sensible thing.. How MUCH we know today.. !

Isa, how is your love life?/ ha ha all the best..

Posted by: DoS, Monday, November 19, 2012, 8:48pm; Reply: 19

At least you get to eat meat... Try rather boring food, and no deserts. I would feel so vary satisfied with food if I could eat meat and spices that are enjoyable. All I get now is vegetables, tofu, and brown rice cakes (my mini-fridge makes cooked rice go bad).

The one thing I never see you talk about is exercise.

I can understand how you feel, as I've probably been larger than you ever have, but at least you aren't bound to the constraints that some of us happen to have. Remember you can exercise the hell out of yourself and see the benefits; many of us have to take a back seat to all the fun or we get sick and there isn't any expectation of transformation.

Posted by: Spring, Monday, November 19, 2012, 9:11pm; Reply: 20

DOS, you can't cook one serving at a time? I bet you can! It is horrible that you have to eat rice cakes in place of the real deal. I have to say that rice cakes are one strange "food" to me. :-/ Even loaded down with peanut butter, they are worse than having peanut butter from a spoon. But rice can be such a comfort food. And this is from someone who got to the point where it was one of the most tasteless foods around. I think Trehalose Complex helped me get my taste back for it. In fact, just writing about it makes me want to cook some for dinner! (smile) BTW, are there ANY spices you can have?

Posted by: KWinNYC, Monday, November 19, 2012, 10:11pm; Reply: 21

I can relate, Goldie.... I have struggled with my weight for a long time too. But I really REGRET my use of Dexatrim in my teens (back in the 80s)- I believe that is what damaged my thyroid. It took many years and finally finding a holistic doctor that performed the TRH stimulation test to get the diagnosis, which turned out to be Hashimoto's, plus adrenal exhaustion. Have you had any of these tests?

As for A's ... oh I would be in real trouble if I could not eat meat and veg.. Yes

NOW we are communicating.. all of you people that feel some sorrow at eating and succeeding, in pieces, yes that is what I am talking about..

Hasimoto no I have not had any one suggest what to test for.. as soon as I mention diabetes.. all else is offff the table.. single mined.. You might be on to something...

As for dexatrim for teens maybe not....I was in my late 20's ... The devil is in the details.. I mean if I am to 'suffer' let me suffer in peace (not experiencing wishes and want's..) but when I read what others have to go through and what they say, well, it does make a difference..

So keep it coming and lets listen to Lolas suggestion..

Today I threw out all foods for others in my house and cleaned out all avoids.. but not before eating something I ought to know better... I feel awful all day.. What a relive it is to KNOW why I feel soooooo crappy.. it is all in the Avoids!!!!!!!!!!

let us make a poem about AVOIDS.. one sentence each or one line each.. lets be creative..

A- Ah feeling so yaky when I eat avoids.. V- Victory when I do not eat avoids.. O- Oh if it was that easy to kiss the avoids good by.. I- I alone am responsible to avoid the avoids..D- Do as I say not as I do when it comes to avoids..S- Shu-sch about not understanding the effects of avoids..

hey .. that was fun...

Posted by: Spring, Monday, November 19, 2012, 11:52pm; Reply: 24

Goldie, why do you punish yourself? You don't have to suffer from eating that stuff that you know is going to make you feel terrible! I love pecan pie like nothing else, but I decided that it was the toasted pecans that I love the most! So how simple is it to toast pecans or other nuts and put a tad of agave on them?! My oldest grandson calls the "custard" part of the pie, "Goop!" He said he didn't want any GOOP! I don't usually eat my nuts toasted so don't get all excited, you purists on here! :D Liked your poem, Goldie!

Posted by: Goldie, Tuesday, November 20, 2012, 12:52pm; Reply: 25

You see Spring... I have this missssssconception (so far) that I am actually awarding ME with the foods I can not have to be healthy. I am awarding me with food when I feel tired, weak, and am looking for a pick me up..

You see Years ago when I 'worked' full time and had a family to take care of there was enough distraction to forfeit food intake to 'normal' .. (!) but normal then was a plate full..

now-a-day with my age that normal is 1/3 of foods in general, or I gain ounce for pound!! Not as much fun. Even active I would still only need just a smidgen of this and an smidgen of that.

Age or hormones.. you choose.. and then I look forward to 30 more years of basic 'just ' existing, taking up space. Getting older is a dilemma, and I expect to get old.. how to live life! on 600 calories or a saucer for main meals. It is just not as much fun as a full size plate used to be.

My fridge could be the size of a shoe box. A lettuce for 2 meals, a sweet potato, a steak to be cut up for 2-3 meals, spices/ and olive oil, and a fruit, 1/4 of a can of beans, and yes 1 egg a day.. that is it! .. Just not much fun.

To STAY in that regiment I can not afford to make food taste better like roasting the nuts.. indeed I would eat even more and those extra calories I add directly to the front of me. Looking pregnant is my look. at 69 tomorrow that just is not a good look. Hahaha I can laugh but it hurts.. age MINUS hormones is not a pleasant way to celebrate... and I do celebrate my day on Thanks giving parties, 3-4 of them.. all laden with fooooooooooooood. I need sequences for Eye shades, so I can not SEE the foood... HAPPY BDAY and HAPPY Thanksgiving.

I say: There has to be another way to live in old age! Where are those hormones or a pill to eat up those inches on my belly. Where are the scientists that truly work on making life easier.

AND NO: A fooooolish looking pregnant/older/fat person walking the streets is just not fun to look at either.. Science has to find THE answer... I KNOW it is in HORMONES! In some food that SPEAKS to the brain!

What food speaks to your brain? and the amount can not be more than a spoon full, 3 oz of protein, or a pill ...

Maybe??? I should realllllllly think about using that Protein shake in place of a meal 4 times a day ?????? and then have one dinner meal with 6 oz of real food.... I never went there.. but I wonder, would that be the better way? would that be satisfying.. never mind the taste of eggshells in the BTD O shake.... :P

I am awarding me with food when I feel tired, weak, and am looking for a pick me up..

If I feel tired, weak and looking for a pickup, I reward myself all right! I REST for a while, and then decide which food or foods are the very best super diamond for me to eat that will give me a lift! Sometimes it is a shall serving of fruit. Other times it might be a spoonful of nut butter and a few dried cranberries. And drink plenty of water, water, water the rest of the time! Make sure you get what you need. Don't just guess.

If all that doesn't seem to work, I get MOVING doing something that I enjoy. Try listening to some music with a fast tempo and MOVE! Boredom is the worst thing in the world to make me feel tired, weak and looking for that "pickup." Under those conditions the "pickup" will more than likely just create more "looking" for the "pickup." (smile)

Posted by: Amazone I., Tuesday, November 20, 2012, 5:05pm; Reply: 27

another try from my understandings.......yesss I know nasty justamente before your uprisung buzlday of tomorrows,,, ;) :K) :D ;D you once mentioned being a 7 in the enneagram =ESTP/J...often I remarked a sort of overeating in this very aspect for this special type... in reality you might be very materialistic which might lead tofears,,,= hold on material issues but also mentally..... the more a certain flight and fight issue might appear... the more of Bauchumpfang... but this is also to be seen in A's... here the heaviest struggles might become clear.... nor do we have anything in life nor do we perform in being ceci ou celà mais as long as we cherrish fears ..... as long our belly might grow.....btw as I do also have a 7 in my birthdates- so am I also a bit concerned... ;) ;D :K) but don't worry biiig hug fromIsa :P(clown) 8)

Posted by: Goldie, Wednesday, November 21, 2012, 3:14am; Reply: 28

Eating more of any food is just not possible.. making any food more attractive is dangerous for me.

Lucky for me, I do not mind eating any food I like as is, no frills.

If it where pretty, or delsih, then I might want more of it- not good.

Even new foods added to my plate could be on issue. I might learn to love it and then I would have to 'give' it up again.

I eat the darkest 90 or 95% chocolate just for the reasons mentioned above, not because it is better tasting- you do get used to it- but because I do not wish to eat more then the minimum like a smidgen - the size of a thumbnail.

There is undoubtedly something connected to age and femaleness that causes these changes in my food / calorie requirements. It is just so difficult to ACCEPT that life is that way (now for me).

Whatever that something is, I wish it back into my life. It could be working actively for 48 hours a week, walking instead of driving, becoming an exercise fanatic, or a 'dancing' every night. Non of these will happen, so that leaves me with: I have no choice but to ACCEPT that my throat is not allowed to ingest as many goodies as my eyes can see... 8) ::) :o :P :'( ;D UNLESS someone creates a thing that can tell my brain body NOT to HOLD on to every calorie. Tell my brain that some food can pass through me without it being taken up into the body. Let it pass digested but not taken up.

Some poor suffering people suffer from such conditions- I feel for them, I suffered for 32 years with undiagnosed milk allergies - YET: I would be willing to let those people have some of MY genes in exchange for some of theirs. Could some scientist be working on that please? ;D

Posted by: Brenna, Saturday, November 24, 2012, 7:08am; Reply: 29

thanx. i am also battle the bulge. hehe. I didn't start getting serious until june 11. In one year, I lost 20 pounds. from 250 to 230. and now my body won't get below 226. but I hope to get there soon.

Posted by: Goldie, Saturday, November 24, 2012, 12:01pm; Reply: 30

Brenna, Do not get discouraged.. if you made it through the holiday, you will be able to try again and go forward. What are you doing to drop weight?

I am looking at words and find that wanting to drop it is better self expression since losing seems to have bad connotations.. HAHA almost anything to help me think better..

I had the greatest last few days.. with food and all, maybe the last of all when I just enjoyed all. The day to 'stop' all that will be here either today with less indulgence, as I have two more dinners to go to today and tomorrow. Yet, they will be normal meals, veal with Parmesan cheese melted over it, and a few vegetables.

I am going to start something new: I wish to just not think of desserts. I somehow have to train me not even to want it. I had one day last week, when I did not mind giving up desserts (read reversed=stressed). What a surprise that was.. I have been working on that 'ethereal' idea for a long time.. I nearly never experience a minute when I would not like 'something'.

During today I will try to cut out all the extras. I might resort to a eggshell protein shake just to see if I could replace a meal, but I hardly see the value in it as it has as many calories as 2 eggs do.. (I am allowed 1 or just egg whites- I found a way to split the egg jock.. I just pick it up with the two shells.. quick and much easier.

Brenna, how did you drop the 20? are you on course to go the distance? I wish you sooooo much of what makes it possible for you! What is your biggest issue? What made it possible for you to drop the first 20?

thanx. i am also battle the bulge. hehe. I didn't start getting serious until june 11. In one year, I lost 20 pounds. from 250 to 230. and now my body won't get below 226. but I hope to get there soon.

June 11th is a good day to start anything - My birthday ;)

Posted by: Goldie, Saturday, November 24, 2012, 12:34pm; Reply: 32

NO PC :o, June 11 is a good day to look forward to progress ;D.. STARTING DAY is any time 10 minutes from NOW! ::) haha... 8)

There is undoubtedly something connected to age and femaleness that causes these changes in my food / calorie requirements. It is just so difficult to ACCEPT that life is that way (now for me).

... UNLESS someone creates a thing that can tell my brain body NOT to HOLD on to every calorie. Tell my brain that some food can pass through me without it being taken up into the body...

Goldie, are you taking the Gatherer Activator & Catalyst supps? One thing they do is suppress your 'thrifty genes', telling your body to not hold on to every calorie. They've worked wonders for me, and for my wife who is an O+ Gatherer. Both of us carry the thrifty genes that Dr. D refers to.

Also like you, I prefer my food simple and unadorned most of the time. This is a big plus! When we connect to our food this way, it becomes more about nurturing, and less about how we alter or complicate our food for "improvement". I'm not advocating raw-eating over gastronomy here, but finding the right perspective may help keep us in balance and free of those nagging urges which may be reward-indulgence driven.

Speaking of which, I've found that certain food combinations (not necessarily the geno-harmonic ones) have a damping effect on my appetite for hours, I'm sure at least partly due to stabilizing glucose levels. This has always been my Achilles heel, and I am stunned to finally have some control over it. For example, sardines and broccoli slaw for lunch will easily hold me until dinner. But without the slaw, there is this "incomplete" feeling that just nags at me (I think many of us are familiar with this). So absent the slaw, a little almond butter and a few brown rice snaps (not as bad as it sounds, actually) absolutely puts a lid on it . Yes, the palate recoils at the thought, but the belly just loves it.

Posted by: Brenna, Saturday, November 24, 2012, 8:00pm; Reply: 36

funny, umm that was June 2011 lol

at that time I had been sleeping 12 hours a day and sooo exhausted. I could barely move. I started taking 10,000 iu a day of liquid vitamin d. I could barely do arm exercises in a chair for 10 min. it was like that for 3 months.

I slowly added in exercise more and more. didn't need as much sleep. I did mostly belly dancing as exercise and found I needed at least 45 min to see any results. that was in early december that I finally lost 10 pounds.

the next 10 pounds - I lost in 3 months after 3 months of maintenance.

Again mostly all just belly dancing.

Right now I need to finetune my eating, not too much but to maintain something small and maintain it. and I am addding in some interval training and core work into my working out.

Posted by: Goldie, Saturday, November 24, 2012, 10:17pm; Reply: 37

Quoted Text

Goldie, are you taking the Gatherer Activator & Catalyst supps? One thing they do is suppress your 'thrifty genes', telling your body to not hold on to every calorie. They've worked wonders for me, and for my wife who is an O+ Gatherer. Both of us carry the thrifty genes that Dr. D refers to.

Averno.... wowowowow... what are those.. fill me in.. I have taken many things but never with that effect in mind.. this is (like) NEW to me.. fill me in please.. THANKS .. HOPE is a wheel or wellspring! ;D

Brenna, GREAT for you.. keep up the 'moves' that work.. I am impressedddddd!

Posted by: Brenna, Saturday, November 24, 2012, 10:49pm; Reply: 38

i have a thrifty gene. I wonder if gatherer catalyst might help for me?

Goldie, I happened to catch a TV informercial today for a product called Sensa...some powder that is sprinkled on top of food. I've heard about it but knew nothing about it prior...and was thinking aboutyou given it's supposed to curb appetite....Just sharing, although don't know if it's compliant,good for anyone or not. Not putting a link to their website because don't want to promote somethingI know nothing about...but if you google the product, it's self explanatory.

Posted by: AnnaSKB, Monday, November 26, 2012, 7:36pm; Reply: 42

Just GET OFF gluten, even 1 slice of wheat bread will cause the weight to stay on. Do like my husband, you can have bread but made with rice flour or some other. My husband lost 35lbs so far, but when he cheats with anything made with wheat, a pound or 2 goes back on and stays for 2-3 days. People at work are asking how'd he lose so much weight; he just says he's eating Right or his Type, not counting calories, not hungry, and not running up and down or lifting weights. We both follow the GTD, found it faster. Good Luck! xoxoxo

Posted by: ruthiegirl, Monday, November 26, 2012, 10:20pm; Reply: 43

We're all unique individuals. Just cutting out gluten isn't enough to ensure weight loss for all of us. If that was the case, I'd have been at my goal weight 2 years before I ever heard of BTD.

Posted by: Goldie, Tuesday, November 27, 2012, 1:34pm; Reply: 44

I think it is not the gluten so much as just any AVOID food. I know I do things I should not, I take full responsibility for it, but feel frustrated..

Gatherer Synergist: CLA Formula : 60 Veggie Caps: Acts like on omega for O's .. in place of flax oils or fish oil..

Interestingly both oils I don't 'like' to get on my hands even.

I ordered all three.. will try for a month and report.

I wondered out loud if we would like to participate in a 'on line or phone conference' once a month with someone from the store ? I thought for old timers it would be a good refresher, and new people would be able to learn as well.. what do you think?

Posted by: Averno, Tuesday, November 27, 2012, 4:14pm; Reply: 46

We take all 3, and I'm sure many others do as well. The only caveat I know of is that you should not take either the Activator or Catalyst in the same hour as Trehalose. They contain antioxidents that interfere with the trehalose.

Posted by: Chloe, Tuesday, November 27, 2012, 4:28pm; Reply: 47

Goldie, have you done this test?

It will give you the best supplements to take and specific food suggestions for weight loss. Also point out theworst foods you could eat.

" CLA Formula, formerly Gatherer/Warrior Synergist, was designed to offset metabolic thrifty tendencies by enhancing muscle growth and increasing insulin sensitivity. The best lipid source for this activity is Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA).

Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA) Supplement Strategy:

CLA reduces fat and preserves muscle tissue. According to one study, an average reduction of six pounds of body fat was found in the group that took CLA, compared to a placebo group. CLA has been shown to decrease abdominal fat and lowers insulin resistance. CLA also enhances the immune system -- many studies have shown that CLA seems to possess significant cancer preventive effects."

Posted by: Spring, Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 12:25am; Reply: 50

I tried the CLA but for some reason it gave me terrible pains in my stomach. I tried it several times with the same results. Must have been some sort of allergic reaction.

Posted by: Victoria, Wednesday, November 28, 2012, 12:48am; Reply: 51

My blood type B daughter, who was a Genotype Gatherer, loved the CLA and felt that it helped her in preventing that tendency to hold weight in the form of fat. She is a SWAMI Nomad, and following a different diet now, but as a Gatherer, it was a success for her.

My blood type B daughter, who was a Genotype Gatherer, loved the CLA and felt that it helped her in preventing that tendency to hold weight in the form of fat. She is a SWAMI Nomad, and following a different diet now, but as a Gatherer, it was a success for her.

I am happy to try this along with the above 4 your Blood type pack.. and see if it will keep me on the way to full compliance. Blood and Geno might be the maximum way to accomplish something.

Quoted Text

We take all 3, and I'm sure many others do as well. The only caveat I know of is that you should not take either the Activator or Catalyst in the same hour as Trehalose. They contain antioxidents that interfere with the trehalose.

Averno this was great info .. I will split the sups from the morning TC.. thanks..

I also observed that CLA seems to act best for O's and B's but also AB might get a benefit from it but not that ok for purest A's.... :-/(naughty)(shrug)

Posted by: Goldie, Thursday, November 29, 2012, 12:33pm; Reply: 55

Mornings for me are always hopeful, but the desires have to stop. I feel like a smoker who has to go COLD Turkey.. IT is not a just way to live,.

Today I allow me 2 minutes self pity and then I will take the plunge..

I am RELYING on the O nonnie sups, and the Gene sups to make that difference, like a patch on my arm to feed the addiction of eating avoids.

I am certain that eating super beneficials will not add weight to me. It is on that, that I will rely.

So examining one food at a time that is giving me grief.. REAL 'grief I feel', is what I am talking about.

So, decaf is one item.. It is near the only drink I like.. giving it up in favor of Cocoa powder will be a needed switch. It is relatively do-able but it is so unsatisfactory, and the last time I did it I saw no differencees..... Does any one have ideas about that ... pro or con? why?

Which of the sups will make cocoa worth the difference? COULD THE COCOA triger insuln??

So far this morning I had a good experience with Lime juice in water and TC as sweetener... one glass was ok. I expect it will keep my mood UP.! It has to! tonight before sleep I will have another far away from the other sups.

...so (typing) the 2 minutes are up.. going to work I go, it is always my best way to create a better state of mind...

I ate a bunch of avoids for lunch out.. and all I am doing is thinking of 'wanting' to eat to feel full.

The interesting thing I experience is the fact that I have NO desire to drink. (even though I presume to be thirsty.)

I think there is a miss-weiring in my brain and I simply do not 'recognize' thirst and thus interpret it as on emptiness in my stomach/belly, even though I clearly had enough calories.

Question: Since I would love more lemon juice in water, but would need to add some sweetness- would buying TREHALOSE plain for that purpose would be satisfactory.. ???

It is possible that the avoids created a craving for either some nutrient (good craving), or more "junk" (bad craving). It is times like these when you have to be stronger than the craving and only take in what should be good for you. Maybe take some Deflect with several ounces of water or eat SMALL quantities of other foods that are beneficial to see if you can find out what the body wants - again ONLY beneficial items. This is one way to get the body to focus on finding what it needs from beneficial foods - and if you listen well, it may start to direct you towards what it needs (and reject what it shouldn't have).

Just because you ate "enough calories", doesn't mean that you provided what the body needed. It is sending "hungry signals" because it needs something. It is up to you to determine WHAT and to find a BENEFICIAL source. If you think you may need to drink, take a couple of ounces of water and let the body tell you if you need more.

To answer the big question you pose... I think you are focusing too much on the taste. Learn to enjoy foods as they are, without added sweet or spice, etc. unless the "additive" is 1. beneficial AND 2. within the SWAMI portion and frequency guideline for you. Adding Trehalose to water may be perfectly fine unless you do this in excess or in preference to some spice that would help the body in some way that it needs help...

We all need to think "How can I do what is best for my body?" It takes some time to get into that mindset, but once there, it becomes easier to put practices in place, etc. to do it.

Posted by: Chloe, Friday, November 30, 2012, 5:21pm; Reply: 60

Goldie, for someone trying to stay very compliant, the fact that you ate lunch out and had a bunch ofavoids, well, I guess you know you have to take some responsibility for your behavior. If you didn'thave any other options for being compliant, then sometimes an avoid is better than going completelyhungry, but I just don't see how a type O can't go to just about any restaurant anywhere, order a salad with lemon juice and olive oil on top....plus some compliant protein and plain steamed veggies....What exactly did you eat? I'm wondering if keeping a food diary would work for you....and go one meal at a time....one snack at a time.....making a connection between your desire to eat properly and watching what you're actually choosing when you're ordering food in a restaurant. Sometimes you just have tosay "NO" to yourself....walk away from the wrong food.

As per Dr. D.....Many avoids/toxins mimic insulin...

Posted by: Goldie, Friday, November 30, 2012, 10:31pm; Reply: 61

Quoted Text

As per Dr. D.....Many avoids/toxins mimic insulin...

THAT is interesting to think about? HOW does insulin communicate????? ??) seriously does anyone know specifically?

As for the trehalose 'sugar' It is the idea that I could drink lemon in water that is attractive, without the sugar it seems harsch...

I find drinking on issue. I seem to feel what I interpret more to be about food than drink, even though I know it is thirst. Does it make sense, no, It just is the way I interpret the feeling in my upper connection from the stomach to my 'gullet'.

It asks for something.. what? does not matter, I soon think it could be cardboard. I wish it could be a balloon that just can be inflated for a while and give the feeling of being stufffffed. stuffed is a state I am in fast, but staying stuffed is less so...

Some say: there is a connection to the brain.. EATING loads of spice - cayenne pepper - would 'quiet' that connection. I like cayenne, but I was never able to eat enough of it to accomplish the 'silence'. my body is resilient and heals it self right away- ha ha ..

That is one of the reasons I liked the brain/quiet Dexatrim (of long years past) used to provide, and what I am currently trying to find in the sups from NAP..

I had used the O sups for dieting and did not find it noticeably helpful.. Now I am adding the Geno gatherer dieting sups, and am waiting to see if they will make a difference. Today I also started with the Green tea extract, and that seems to be able to provide silence for about 4 hours. taking it twice a day, breakfast and lunch, it might be enough to provide PEACE..

I liken the feeling to that of a EX smoker, no real need for nicotine/ but wanting all that is connected to taking 'a break'. It is hard for them, and I liken this feeling to the same kind of "wanting' something. It is not connected to the lungs but just to the space where food entered the stomach. There just is that spot where the 'drag' is centered. I read about it and so I KNOW that that spot is real in some people. (Just) knowing is not enough to make it go away.. ) I wonder if there could be a way to make cayenne tea????? Nuts!!! :X just looking for possibilities.

Today I was good. Eggs, snack bar for lunch with small steak and big green salad. Dinner will be veal and salad... and a cup of tea.

My ideal would be:1 egg - I have 2 by habit.. just bought a new 3 inch fry pan to cook just one egg in future ;D .. Small meat/for lunch and salad. Have to get better salad dressing for me.. I wish Doctor D would make one. Smidgen thumb nail size of 90% chocolate for snack time.Same as lunch and for now NO fruit as it triggers 'wants'. or only 1-2 pineapple chunks.

Exercise.. working to keep busy - I found a volunteer job I like, it helps. Walk more.

All this for the rest of my life.. and take the sups if they work out in the hope that I will get silence!

AND stuff to drink.. drinking fluid/water is A BIG issue.. going to use broth more often, or find a new tea..

I miss organic greens for juicing from Dandelions.. we used to have a source, but no more.. I would have it shipped by the case from anywhere.. if I could find a source!! ??)

OK off to eat dinner out.. I feel confident 8).

Posted by: Possum, Friday, November 30, 2012, 11:39pm; Reply: 62

Goldie - did you know what I heard - that in some places they use sugar in the water they wash/soak their steaks in??!! Not sure reason for this, unless they think it will stimulate the diner's appetite to buy more food?!