Town Square

'Undocumented' but inspiring

Original post made
on Nov 27, 2012

Immigration reform activist Jose Antonio Vargas spoke at to a near-capacity crowd at Los Altos High School last weekend, advocating for swift, comprehensive and fair changes to current U.S. immigration policies.

Posted by Horselady
a resident of Community Center
on Nov 27, 2012 at 10:11 am

Inspiring as it may be, there really is no room in this country for more people. It affects the futures of people who were born here and have full citizenship.

Charity, after all, begins at home. We need to get our own kids through college, not put immigrant children through college for free via grants and special scholarships created just for students who are immigrants. The situation is out of control here.

Mexico will put kids through college for free, if they qualify for admission, as does most of the rest of the world these days. That is not so here, we have to pay through the nose. Students who are citizens should have first pick for college openings if they qualify. There has to be some benefit to being a citizen of this country, but those benefits are disappearing as we give preference to Mexican and Asian immigrants in higher education simply because they have full ride scholarships or, in the case of Asians, can simply afford to pay more.

This must be the only country in the world where citizens are at a disadvantage educationally.

Posted by fascinated
a resident of Downtown North
on Nov 27, 2012 at 11:52 am

Try doing the same thing back in the Philippines! Not only do they NOT following our immigration policy, they would have rounded up Vargas and family and thrown them all out, regardless if the child was brought in illegally and unknowingly.

Either we follow our own immigration laws, or just abandon them and have an open border, so anyone can come and go, including the drug dealers, crimminal elements, terrorists, etc.

Posted by A friend of all
a resident of Esther Clark Park
on Nov 27, 2012 at 1:20 pm

I predict that Jose Antonio Vargas will do more for our country than many who were born here. Be careful how you judge others. I wish you well, Jose. For those who still struggle with the concept of those who are living here without benefit of a green card, may I suggest you live in his shoes for a month to begin to understand what his life is really like every day.

Posted by Illegal-Is-As-Illegal-Does
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Nov 27, 2012 at 1:50 pm

Mr. Vargas is a man who does not believe that US sovereignty gives the Country the right to create laws as to who can enter its borders for visits, or who can enter for intermediate periods of time'such as becoming a permanent resident, or to apply for citizenship. Mr. Vargas is a man who believes that he, as an individual, possesses greater rights that the US Government, and the US citizens who conveyed to the Federal Government the power to define the country's boundaries, to create laws to deal with numerous national issues'such as 'immigration', or the power to enforce those laws.

No'Mr. Vargas has openly declared himself to be above the US Government, and the American people'by mocking our laws, and refusing to voluntarily comply with those laws that deal with the basics of how people not born here become citizens.

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

The idea that people all over the world have a right to immigrate to the US, to immediately demand unemployment benefits, and become a part of the ever-growing permanent underclass that has been growing since the days of the Great Depression (FDR) and Johnson's 'Great Society'--is not one that can be seen as beneficial to the long-term health of our Country. The US is effectively bankrupt now'in large part because of pandering to the belief that: 'it's a rich country, and everyone deserves a share'. [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

What exactly is 'comprehensive immigration reform'? It would not be hard to expect that Mr. Vargas, and his ilk, are promoting "open borders', instant citizenship, no requirements to learn English, instant/long-term welfare benefits, as well as any number of 'loopy' ideas that would increase immigration to the point that the US economy eventually collapses.

The US has been undergoing deindustrialization for many decades now. This has resulted in unemployment levels unheard of since the Great Depression, and far too many people dependent on government aid'such as the now well-documented 47% on food stamps. The public school system has failed, while sucking down more taxpayer funds than ever before. We will see increased automation/hi-tech being introduced into our factories in the coming decades The idea that wave after wave of illiterate immigrants are somehow going to turn around the American economy is beyond delusional. Even now, the manufacturing sector tells us that the skill levels for more Americans queuing up for work is not at a high enough level to all these businesses to hire as many competent employees as they would like, which is holding back their expansion plans. How people who have no basic education are going to fill these jobs defies the imagination. One can only wonder how Mr. Vargas can answer these questions, if put to him.

> "Illegal immigration" is a term he says is "imprecise" and
> downright cruel. "Something goes terribly wrong when
> you categorize human beings as 'illegal,'" he said.

When someone breaks the law, that puts him/her into a position of being outside the law'or 'illegal'. Mr. Vargas seems to have a problem with the basics of our language, our logic, our law, and even our American common sense.

> "Words matter a lot."

Yes, they do. That's why we call people who have violated our laws'criminals.

Posted by Get real
a resident of Green Acres
on Nov 27, 2012 at 2:08 pm

"People who support Mr. Vargas also seem to be supporting cultural suicide."

Unless those people are Italian. Or Irish. Or German. Or Jewish. Or Asian. Or, say, anything but, you know, Native Americans.

Want a simple solution?

Throw the managers of the Midwest meat packing plants in jail for a night for every undocumented worker. Throw the Walton family in jail for a week for every outsourced contractor that cleans their stores late at night with undocumented workers. Throw the board of directors of Tyson chicken into San Quentin for a few nights for every undocumented worker they have in their plants.

"C'mere, puny little weasel, meet Bubba."

Tehy were streaming in (not anymore, fwiw, net migration has reversed) for jobs. Jobs from large corporations willing to hide the worker for the ability to use and abuse low wage labor.

Want to fix it? A couple nights in San Quentin for the real miscreants.

Posted by Illegal-Is-As-Illegal-Does
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Nov 27, 2012 at 2:20 pm

> Unless those people are Italian. Or Irish. Or German. Or Jewish.
> Or Asian. Or, say, anything but, you know, Native Americans.

And what point are you trying to make?

For the most part, Europeans came to America in waves. English and Scottish as colonists (or prisoners of war) under British rules. Irish came in large numbers during the Potato Famineand created quite a problem once they were here, for various reasons.

Asians saw different periods of immigration. Chinese were imported in large number, after the end of slavery, primarily to build the railroads. Then, because of restrictive immigration laws, their numbers were highly restrictedalthough there was some illegal immigration.

As to the native Americans, it's hard to believe that they have ever been "pro-immigration"given the end results of being displaced.

America's views on "immigration" have changed, since the earliest colonies were founded. The US needed people to populate the land, and grow the economy. Those times are over. We need to be more circumspect as to who enters the country. That is our right, and our obligation to the future.

Posted by Get real
a resident of Green Acres
on Nov 27, 2012 at 2:37 pm

Yup.

Pretty much knew that @illegal would ignore the solution offered.

@illegal wants her big mac as cheap as possible, no matter who gets reduced wages cutting her meat (and the packers fingers.) She wants to go into walmart and get the lowest price, no matter who cleans the place. She wants her chickfila as cheap as possible, no matter what American gets kicked out of a Tyson plant to make room for an undocumented worker.

The magnet is low wage jobs, many from Fortune 1000 companies. If you don't address that, then you're just whining, xenophobic whining, at that.

But you rather talk about the potato famine.

Why don't you deflect more onto your fantasy that the Irish caused more problems than the Germans, or the Italians or the Jews?

Posted by Phil
a resident of Downtown North
on Nov 27, 2012 at 3:04 pm

I too am a product of immigrants. As a first generation American I value the contribution that immigrants have made in shaping our country, as well as the future energy and potential they provide.

With that said, I do have one major problem with what Mr. Vargas and many immigration advocates are trying to accomplish. They do not want to follow the current immigration laws. My father and mother immigrated to this country from Europe "legally". They played by the rules, submitted the necessary documentation, and adhered to the policies. They later became U.S. citizens and to this day are proud Americans. Still very much connected and placing value in our heritage, but first and foremost, proud Americans.

My parents had no formal education to speak of, could not speak the English language very well at all, and barely a dollar to their name. That did not stop them from respecting our laws and earning a place in American society. They worked tirelessly from day one so their children could live the American dream. They knew that in order to achieve a place in American society they had to respect our laws, learn the language, work hard, and not become dependent on society to get them by.

This generation seems to feel entitled somehow to a fast track, free passes, and a world where rules only apply when convenient to their needs. It is an insult to all those who played by the rules and did it right. I have no issue with America embracing productive, law abiding, and positive immigrants. I just have an expectation that they do so within the law. Anything less is offensive and disrespectful to all Americans and legal, documented immigrants.

Posted by Illegal-Is-As-Illegal-Does
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Nov 27, 2012 at 3:23 pm

> Why don't you deflect more onto your fantasy
> that the Irish caused more problems than the
> Germans, or the Italians or the Jews?

To go down this road would be a little off-point. But to point out what this poster doesn't seem to knowthe Irish came to the US in large numbers after the potato famine forced about 30% of the population to leave the country just to survive. The Irish of the time believed that the British government should have done more to care for those who were most affected, and often forced to live in very harsh conditions (iepoor houses). When they got to places like the American North East (Boston and New York, primarily), they began many anti-British activitieswhich were more or less tolerated by the US Government, to the point of creating embarrassing diplomatic stresses between the US and Britain. This freedom for the Irish (disapora) continued well into the 20th Century, allowing the IRA (Irish Republican Army) to operate more-or-less within US law, collecting money for illegal IRA activities in Ireland and Britain.

Over time, the Irish managed to become a key part of the Democratic partyshaping many of its beliefs about "government" to reflect not an American point-of-view (self sufficiency, for instance)but one that creates dependence on government at the individual level. And let's not forget the history of the Irish in corrupting many of the city governments in the cities where they found themselves in sufficient numbers to win elections.

One last point--Ireland did not declare war against Germany during WWII, even though tens of thousands of Irishmen did join the British forces, fighting the Wehrmacht. Therefore, native-born Irish who were here in the US legally presented a national security problem that required surveillance (just as with the Germans and Italiansmany of whom were interred during the early years of the war).

Posted by Phil
a resident of Downtown North
on Nov 27, 2012 at 3:35 pm

Another brief thought and foot note. Mr. Vargas points out in referring to the title illegal immigrant vs undocumented immigrant, that "words matter a lot." May I remind Mr. Vargas that actions matter more. Those seeking to immigrate into this country outside of the law are the ones who are labeling themselves with the title of "illegal." They are the ones who are creating the controversy. Unbelievable how anyone could ignore and disrespect the laws in place, do precisely as they wish without conscious, and then bash the citizens and legal immigrants of this country when they simply point out a legitimate concern. It's more than insulting, it's offensive.

Posted by Nora Charles
a resident of Stanford
on Nov 27, 2012 at 4:09 pm

Our nation simply cannot continue to absorb the flood of immigrants from south of the border, it's simple as that. People from all over world want to come here, and immigration should be a LEGAL process for them all. It's easy to make it an emotional issue, but sadly it's a major fiscal issue, and to ignore that spells disaster.

And the comment above about the Irish causing security problems during WWII--just preposterous! (And no, I'm not Irish.)

Posted by Get real
a resident of Green Acres
on Nov 27, 2012 at 4:13 pm

Emotional issue? As opposed to these emotional claims lacking in facts?

"Our nation simply cannot continue to absorb the flood of immigrants from south of the border, it's simple as that. (FACT?) People from all over world want to come here,(FACT?) and immigration should be a LEGAL process for them all. It's easy to make it an emotional issue, but sadly it's a major fiscal issue,(FACT?) and to ignore that spells disaster." (FACT?)

Posted by Outside Observer
a resident of another community
on Nov 27, 2012 at 5:24 pm

Who will pick the crops?

That question always comes up in a discussion about illegal immigration. The answer is quite simple. The employers of illegal immigrants will pick the crops. One hour of stoop labor in the fields for every man-hour of illegal employment.

We already have a mechanism for this in criminal justice system. It's called "community service".

If we did this, we would have decades of farm labor. We might even decide to mechanize agriculture. Something we could have, and would have done decades ago if it weren't for an endless supply of illegals.

Posted by Hmmm
a resident of East Palo Alto
on Nov 27, 2012 at 7:31 pm

I'd love to see an article about local immigrants who came here legally for school, work, love, etc. It might not be as controversial, but it'd be a good way to further our understanding of why they chose this part of the US, what their dreams are, how they contribute & how they live their lives. My spouse is one of those people & so is my dad.

I'm surrounded by undocumented immigrants. I literally live amidst the upside & the downside of this issue, and it wasn't this way when I moved here. What I resent the most in my day to day life is how they thrust their way of life on *everyone* around them. While mostly hardworking, which I admire, I also find many of them sexist, selfish, provincial, narrow-minded, harsh & uncaring toward pets, cheap & ungenerous. They don't value education the way that we do & that creates a huge cultural rift. They don't try to learn the language & as a woman, I'm deeply aware of the male sexist attitude toward me. It's disconcerting. I understand their culture of origin & its harshness, but understanding doesn't make it to adjust to the changes they've caused in my life. And hey, I've done work that's helped many of them, but I worry about the future of EPA w/so many living here, because of their lack of civic engagement.

Vargas is lucky that he lives in the US illegally, a place that allows him freedom of speech.

I love how Americans have this immigration thing all wrong. I think we need to address WHY they lack opportunity in their homeland. Do we just feel sorry for the ones that confront us....... They come here because WE are willing to pay 300 a night for a hotel room in Mexico while they pay the maid 2.00 a day. If you think Walmart exploits labor....go and see the system in Mexico...

Posted by Nora Charles
a resident of Stanford
on Nov 28, 2012 at 4:07 am

Posted by Get real, a resident of the Green Acres neighborhood, 11 hours ago

Emotional issue? As opposed to these emotional claims lacking in facts?

"Our nation simply cannot continue to absorb the flood of immigrants from south of the border, it's simple as that. (FACT?) People from all over world want to come here,(FACT?) and immigration should be a LEGAL process for them all. It's easy to make it an emotional issue, but sadly it's a major fiscal issue,(FACT?) and to ignore that spells disaster." (FACT?)
__________
Yes, these are all facts. Get real indeed.

Posted by C. Moakler
a resident of another community
on Nov 28, 2012 at 5:58 am

I guess if you live in the closet long enough then you think that being called illegal is inhuman. I agree that being Caucasion, Black, or Orintal are unnecessary identifiers. All of us could be part of the human population and leave it at that, but if I were born with mental or physical defect and being labled was necessary to get government assistance then i guess I would need to put away my pride. I think we have demonstrated that we are the most liberal country on the planet in allowing illegal aliens to come here, work, often times forcing Americans into unemployment and the resulting family stress, and then forgiving the act of comming here illegally over and over. Now Vargas makes a living trying to place his class in front of the people that came here legally? I need to find out where he is speaking so I can walk out on him.

Posted by BH
a resident of another community
on Nov 28, 2012 at 6:47 am

No one is forcing americans into unemployment. The jobs that most illegals are doing are the jobs that you are pushing for your children to NOT end up in. They are The Help. None of us want our kids to end up as dishwashers, gardner, nany, housekeeper, vegetable or fruit picker, car wash worker, etc.... We strive to be CEO's, Engineers, Doctors, Lawyers, etc.... and even if i lost my high paying job i would not go do the jobs that The Help do. I would rather collect unemplyment for several years before i did this work and im sure most of you would do the same. SO This argument about them taking our jobs is BULL!!!! I Dont want their jobs and i dont want my kids doing their jobs.

Posted by Noise or fact
a resident of East Palo Alto
on Nov 28, 2012 at 10:51 am

The rhetoric without substantiation shows just how emotional folks are.

I appreciate those that look at the root cause of the situation, either the poor conditions that push over-achievers out of their country to struggle for success in a new land.

Or the other root cause: big businesses supporting the existing arrangement because it drives down the labor costs on low skill jobs and takes what may have once been a living wage job that could support a family and driven the wage down, along with intolerable conditions. (note the party of 'big business' has no solutions to stop big business from hiring illegals, only supports a big wall... walls never stop migration.)

example: meat packers used to make $40K a year in the Midwest plants, now they are down to $25K a year or less, with injury rates much higher under new, unsafe conditions (read Fast Food Nation.)

To call it a "a major fiscal issue, and to ignore that spells disaster" without substantiation or even a little detail just adds to the rhetoric. In fact, 'undocumented worker' contributions to SSI without ever being able to collect is in fact adding a small element of support to Social Security.

Posted by Toady
a resident of Old Palo Alto
on Nov 28, 2012 at 11:59 am

"'Illegal immigration' is a term he says is imprecise' and downright cruel. "

Imprecise? Let's see. He broke the law. I think that makes what he did illegal. Nothing imprecise about that.

"Words matter a lot.""

Awwww. Poor guy. Sticks and stones, as they say.

At least he acknowledges that there should be some penalty for being here illegally, which is more than what many activists want. I'm all for immigration reform, and "fairness" should include the fact that they broke our laws.

Posted by Illegal-Is-As-Illegal-Does
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Nov 28, 2012 at 11:59 am

> 300 words on some ridiculous version of "history"

Not one word can be shown as false.

> Who will pick the crops?

Who indeed. There was a time that Americans did that work. Over time, and "The Great Society"--a significant portion of our citizens decided that being on welfare was more desirable than "picking the crops". Looking forward a generation, it's not hard to see a lot of this kind of work being performed with service robots.

> @illegal -- ya got nothing!

And you, my friend--less than nothing!

> either the poor conditions that push over-achievers
> out of their country to struggle for success in a new land.

Historically--it's probable that more "ordinary people" immigrated, than "over-achievers". The reasons for colonization were pretty messy--by today's thinking: Georgia was started as a penal colony (as was Australia). Many of the early Scottish transplants were prisoners-of-war, or were driven out by changes in the nature of agriculture. Many came as indentured servants--paying for their passage with many years of bonded servitude. They came to the colonies to survive. The colonies, and the the US, have always been seen as "opportunity" to people voluntarily coming here--no matter what their skill level.

Jews came in large numbers after the pograms in Russia made life there untenable for them. Japanese generally didn't tend to immigrate to anywhere very much, so the numbers of Japanese (Asian) immigrants has historically been small.

In some cases, the US Government fostered immigration in order to force the new immigrants into the US Army--as was true during the Civil War. Most of these men were promised jobs in factories--only to end up fighting Lincoln's war.

Of late, immigrants from Mexico are so poorly educated that it is said that they generally don't have a high school education, nor can they even speak Spanish properly. It is hard to see these folks as "over-achievers".

Posted by BH
a resident of another community
on Nov 28, 2012 at 12:26 pm

If wages are not kept down for certain jobs, those jobs will be outsourced to China and India and other parts of the world and we will lose those jobs all together. We wont grow any food here in the the states if its too expensive to pay higher wages for this labor. This will leave this country in a very vulneral situation.

Posted by company man
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Nov 28, 2012 at 12:36 pm

Sounds like BH is in favor of a reduced wage working class for the agriculture industry. BH: were you in favor of the amnesty in the eighties?

Okay. That's an opinion. Sounds similar to opinions that favor a reduced or eliminated minimum wage.

What about other jobs that can't be outsourced, such as the service industry? Shall there be an immigrant 'reduced wage working class' in place to keep labor costs for corporations at a low level, in the name of corporate profits over a living wage?

Posted by Illegal-Is-As-Illegal-Does
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Nov 28, 2012 at 4:42 pm

> What about today's immigration issues.

It would be an understatement to suggest that they are anything but "complicated".

Let's take California, for instancenot exactly clear where all of the legal/illegal immigrants are located by city/county, but let's stipulate that there are a goodly number in the Central Valley, doing farm work. The farmers claim that they need workers, and the only ones that they can get are very-low-skilled/often transient/illegals. While this may be true, let's ask ourselves a few questions:

1) What is the GDP contribution for agriculture in California?
2) What percentage of the water does agriculture use?

The answer to the first questions is about 5%. The answer to the second question is about 85%. In other wordsagriculture does not increase the wealth of California significantly, while consuming most of its water and drawing hundreds of thousands of illegals into the statewhich must be dealt with, one way or another. (And yes--creating a lot of food in the process.)

So---one of the first problems would be to rethink California as an agricultural center. This would involve rethinking "riparian rights', as well constitutional rights about how people can use their land. Really big issues.

What about a "guest worker" program? That's a good ideaexcept that it requires a lot of enforcement, which no one seems to have much stomach for. We did have a "bracero" program during WWII, which people thought might be a model for such a programuntil it came to light that the workers were victimized by corrupt government officialswho stole millions from them. Not something we want to put in place again.

Even if we could come up with a new "guest worker" program, it would require a level on honesty to comply with US laws that is not likely to be found in people who are not US citizens--and have no problem coming here illegally now (people who would rather move here, rather than just work here, periodically).

Most of the illegals are probably in Los Angeleswhere it's said that all of the restaurants would fold if the illegals were deported. Whether this is true, or not, is not easily ascertainedbut it's not hard to verify that many restaurants are staffed by illegals. If you have any doubt, walk into any Palo Alto restaurant downtown during a non-peak time, and you'll quickly come to the conclusion that few people working there speak any English. And if they don't speak any English .. that means ..

To make matters worse, no matter where you turn, we are finding that illegals are corrupting our social system. We have cities declaring themselves to be "sanctuary cities"where US Immigration Law will not be honored. Here in Palo Alto, the Chief of PoliceDennis Burnsrecently accepted an award from one of the left-wing groups for claiming that he (meaning the Palo Alto Police) would not turn over people to Federal Immigration Enforcementif they are arrested and didn't have any "papers". Clearlywhen the local police decide that they are not going to follow Federal Lawthat simply emboldens criminals hiding among the illegals who are working, and not otherwise engaged in criminal activities to engage in greater criminal activity than if the local police were in compliance with Federal law. One can only wonder what Chief Burns will do now that he has claimed he is not subject to Federal lawwhen gangs start kidnapping, or robbing banks ,here in Palo Alto.

By-and-large, we Americans have created this problem. Cheering on the likes of this Vargas fellow is not going to get us any closer to a solution.

Posted by Illegal-Is-As-Illegal-Does
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Nov 28, 2012 at 5:45 pm

> what do you think of companies that hire illegals?"

Obviously they are a problem. But we don't really know how many illegals are hired by companies, now do we?

The IRS seems to allow people to used stolen SSANs. They know exactly how many people there are doing this. Yet--they don't seem to do much about it. Why blame just the companies when the Federal government isn't holding up its end of the stick?

Reducing the threshold to deport, funding more enforcement, and stiff financial penalties for people hiring illegals--
this has been proposed time-and-again. But Congress and Sacramento don't ever seem to get on board with the funding.

Posted by stop your whining
a resident of Ventura
on Nov 28, 2012 at 6:47 pm

"The IRS seems to allow people to used stolen SSANs. They know exactly how many people there are doing this. Yet--they don't seem to do much about it."

Any proof? Or are you hiding behind your choice of words like "seems"?

Your pandering word choice is staggering, just in 3 sentences, you write: "Let's take California, for instancenot exactly clear... but let's stipulate (?) that there are a goodly (?) number... The farmers claim... While this may be true, let's ask ourselves a few questions...."

Oh my! What a GOODLY number of waffles!

"...funding more enforcement, and stiff financial penalties for people hiring illegals... this has been proposed time-and-again. But Congress and Sacramento don't ever seem to get on board with the funding."

No state does, it's a federal issue. At the Fed level, the GOP won't crack down on business because the businesses want tit that way. Libs won't because they support immigration.

Posted by Outside Observer
a resident of another community
on Nov 28, 2012 at 7:00 pm

>>"At the Fed level, the GOP won't crack down on business because the businesses want tit that way. Libs won't because they support immigration."

Very true. There is, however, a 3rd element to the blind eye the government has to illegal immigrants that most people don't realize.

The criminal justice industry. The high crime rate among illegal immigrants is fodder for the industry. It justifies their ever-expanding industry and insures continued employment from judges to lawyers to cops and prison guards... and all of it on our dime.

Posted by Perspective
a resident of Greater Miranda
on Nov 29, 2012 at 4:42 am

The only post I am glad I spent my time reading are the posts by Phil.

Phil: Your experience and mine are similar. Big difference between being raised by someone who came here from a tyrant country, worked hard, learned English fully, became a citizen, and loved this country, raising us with appreciation for what we have here vs. what is in other countries.

Solutions: Slam the border shut, prosecute employers of undocumenteds, patriate/assimilate those already here. What is so hard about that? Doesn't solve the immediate problem of what to do with everyone, but at least stops the flooding.

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