The point wasn't that either were not worthwhile and valid limitations. The point was that they overlap quite a bit so you shouldn't get the values you're suggesting.

lol, I wasn't suggesting that either. Most limitations are priced with the idea that you'll be doing them under a time constraint or against unwilling targets. Neither really applies here, so I'd be a little more suspect on just how some of these things are making it a less useful ability. Any limitation that isn't coming into play (as often as it would otherwise) is worth less. Any that you can easily bypass or ignore aren't really limiting the ability.

It's about like taking "I don't shoot people I don't want to shoot" on an innate attack. It's not really worth anything as a limitation.

If anything that'd be a 'Selective Effect' enhancement, I remember you could take that to avoid hitting allies with Spray fire somewhere in Powers.

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Blood agent means what it says: a cut works. Sex Act + Blood Agent means very specific orifices. Orifices which are usually protected and covered. Unless you have some very specific fetishes, nose and ears aren't going to do you much good.

I notice there's a missing disclaimer for the eyes... surely those would normally work with Blood Agent too.

I expect the reason a Succubus has Contact Agent instead of Blood Agent is so that they can target men, because the usual fashion would not involve contact with his mucous membrane, only the demon's (blood-agent: reversed) however since Succubi don't have blood agent, reversed, they could simply use their hands... but since they don't have "sense-based, touch, reversed" it doesn't have to be their hands, it could be their elbows or knees or whatever.

The urethral opening of the penis is a mucus membrane, so unprotected sex counts for Blood Agent.

Otherwise, men couldn't contract sexually-transmitted diseases.

Also, keep in mind that "Only while having sex" does drastically limit the effectiveness of an ability. Healing, with Blood Agent, you could put your hands into an injury and heal the injury during combat. With "Only while having sex" and Blood Agent, you can't really do that during combat . . . unless you're into that sort of thing. No judgement, it's just a rare fetish.

While it may not be as annoying (to others) as only while playing the trumpet, it is harder to pull off, requires a second (or more) person(s) (who may be illegal to have sex with), takes a bit of time (when done right), and can get you into a lot of trouble (social or legal) if you're caught. And the cost in cigarettes could also be crippling.

The majority of people aren't going to want to engage in sexual activities in public, or even out of doors. At least in America, the population is remarkably prudish to public displays of sex, when it's not in the movies. Just because you're an exhibitionist doesn't mean it'll be easy to find a partner. So, Only while having sex is an additional, limiting, limitation.

And even if you can find a partner whose willing to participate in your ribald pleasantries in public, that doesn't mean that you won't draw a crowd or even get arrested for indecent exposure amidst other charges. And with the proliferation of social media, the participants will be all over the internet in a matter of minutes, probably going viral (hopefully not catching any viruses as well).

Let's look at it as an affliction, just with takes extra time. Assuming you can have sex in one minute (your poor partner . . .), Affliction takes 1 second. So, that would be 5 levels of Takes Extra Time, to get it to 32 seconds. Or 6 for 64 seconds. That's -50% or -60%. That's already double the canon limitation of -25%. And, for men, it would be fitting to add "Takes Recharge" on there as well. I also, usually, suggest adding All-Out to it as well, as, if you're doing it right, you shouldn't be focused on anything else.

Those are the primary reasons I consider "Only while having sex" not just valid, but worth more than the -25% limitation it has in canon. (I also consider Compulsive Sexual Behaviour a -15 disadvantage because of just how crippling it can be.)

Now, your mileage may vary. It really depends on just how much sex you're comfortable having in your game. (That was an awkward sentence.) But, if you're willing to have sexual abilities in your game, you're probably more likely to think about the limitations and how they apply.

Let's look at it as an affliction, just with takes extra time. Assuming you can have sex in one minute (your poor partner . . .), Affliction takes 1 second. So, that would be 5 levels of Takes Extra Time, to get it to 32 seconds. Or 6 for 64 seconds. That's -50% or -60%. That's already double the canon limitation of -25%. And, for men, it would be fitting to add "Takes Recharge" on there as well. I also, usually, suggest adding All-Out to it as well, as, if you're doing it right, you shouldn't be focused on anything else.

I'd suggest disallowing takes extra time and requires X maneuver where you're not doing second by second rounds and asking for maneuvers.

Also, using Affliction and having sex would be two things at once, so All-Out just to use the Affliction doesn't seem like a good idea. The original ability was written as an aura which so All-Out wouldn't apply to that version either.

Aura also allowed it to affect he user over and over. Otherwise, repeat power use will eventually exhaust you even if the sex doesn't.

I don't use Aura on it, because it's not an aura. I wouldn't have that. Melee attack, reach C, sure, but not Aura. It's not an aura.

Having sex and using an affliction aren't necessarily two separate things. That's why you have the Accessibility: Only while having sex. The sex is the concentration/ready maneuvers you need to activate the ability.

If you're activating an affliction, it does deserve the Takes Extra Time limitations, as you can't do them quickly, if time should ever matter. And, as you're not able to make active defenses, All-Out does make sense.

However, the discussion I was responding to was whether "Only while having sex" was a relevant limitation when coupled with Blood Agent, and it is.

I don't use Aura on it, because it's not an aura. I wouldn't have that. Melee attack, reach C, sure, but not Aura. It's not an aura.

Presumably the aura was to represent it happening automatically during sex. Naturally, it could be only when you will it to happen instead.

As an aside, abilities that you reuse over and over, count as exertion for fatigue use. I suspect aura justified being able to use it a few hundred times successfully over a 15 min encounter.

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Having sex and using an affliction aren't necessarily two separate things. That's why you have the Accessibility: Only while having sex. The sex is the concentration/ready maneuvers you need to activate the ability.

Being able to do two different activities in a single action is an advantage or enhancement rather than a limitation. You can't just get a free "when I strike I with both weapons as one action" instead of taking dual strike.

Besides, your description of "only during sex" was based on the analysis that you're not likely to do it in combat and when you do you'll be suitably devoted to what you are doing.

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If you're activating an affliction, it does deserve the Takes Extra Time limitations, as you can't do them quickly, if time should ever matter. And, as you're not able to make active defenses, All-Out does make sense.

Sure, if you didn't already take credit for the limitation that you wouldn't be quickly or in combat as part of your description of why "only during sex" is worth -25%.

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However, the discussion I was responding to was whether "Only while having sex" was a relevant limitation when coupled with Blood Agent, and it is.

I'd be more curious what explanation required both. Usually STDs are limited in how we share bodily fluids, but are otherwise could be shared more readily.

I had a pair of gamers who were a (lesbian) couple in real life, and they roleplayed a (hetero) couple in-game. The e-book Chinese Elemental Magic had some powers that they liked, and so they had a sort of tantric "mutual powerup" set of powers from that supplement that could enhance their two characters in various mental and physical tasks after intimacy.

The power, IIRC, was even more limited because they only worked after contact between those two particular PCs.

The urethral opening of the penis is a mucus membrane, so unprotected sex counts for Blood Agent.

Succubi do not need to be that specific (just the tip) when attacking, since they have the broader Contact Agent.

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Let's look at it as an affliction, just with takes extra time. Assuming you can have sex in one minute (your poor partner . . .), Affliction takes 1 second. So, that would be 5 levels of Takes Extra Time, to get it to 32 seconds. Or 6 for 64 seconds. That's -50% or -60%. That's already double the canon limitation of -25%

I think the Succubus had TET 10 for -100%, probably at the point where you begin to require less time than the lowest tier of "Requires Immediate Preparation" yet get a bigger discount, is where to draw the line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

I don't use Aura on it, because it's not an aura. I wouldn't have that. Melee attack, reach C, sure, but not Aura. It's not an aura.

I think the distinction would Aura would be "I must attack using this specific part of me" (usually either hands or mouth or eyes, but you could plausibly choose something else like shooting laser beams out of your nose or toxic gas out of your ears, etc) vs "people can attack any part of me" ("what are you doing to my elbow?").

Aura isn't a bad idea if you're wanting to avoid having to actually take attack maneuvers specifically dedicated to activating the ability. Aura with Delayed Effect (Exposure Time) probably makes more sense for "I need to be doing this, but I don't need to be thinking about it", as compared to Takes Extra Time which explicitly requires a series of Ready maneuvers, so your ability to activate it would be interrupted if you were stunned and had to Do Nothing.

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Originally Posted by naloth

Presumably the aura was to represent it happening automatically during sex. Naturally, it could be only when you will it to happen instead.

Willingness would be represented by switching the aura on as a free action. Being unwilling would be represented by switching the aura off as a free action. I think if you were knocked unconscious with an aura switched on that it would keep working though.

I remember reading something about switchable abilities automatically turning off when knocked unconscious but I can't remember if the modifier was an enhancement, limitation, or 0-point feature.

One other way to fudge it would be to attack "Requires Will Roll" and simply opt not to make the will roll (automatically failing the ability) when needed. With Auras I don't know if you roll per contact or per minute though.

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Originally Posted by naloth

Being able to do two different activities in a single action is an advantage or enhancement rather than a limitation. You can't just get a free "when I strike I with both weapons as one action" instead of taking dual strike.

Besides, your description of "only during sex" was based on the analysis that you're not likely to do it in combat and when you do you'll be suitably devoted to what you are doing.

This begs the question, do the conditions of Accessibility on a Takes Extra Time (or Requires Immediate Preparation) ability apply only upon the final moment of activation, or also during preparatory steps? If I have "Healing (Only While Flying, Takes Extra Time) would I need to be flying during the mandatory preceding Ready maneuvers too?

If so, then would a Succubus actually count as being "sexually intimate" during those Ready maneuvers? You can't "attack" during a ready maneuver after all (including Grapple, Shoving People Around, or whatever might be used to approximate the past time) so the Succubus would pretty much would need to just lie there and let the victim do most of the movement, or else if they are doing the work, they would have to hold off initiating their Leech until the post-coital snuggling. The Ready maneuver does give a "Step" (as well as Active Defenses, Retreats) so perhaps those could be used as bed-bouncing currencies?

To design an Incubus/Succubus who was the active "attacker" who could still be using their ability would probably work best if you gave them Compartmentalized Mind and then added something like "Requires Will roll" to their Leech (to make it a mental ability instead of physical, to use Concentrates instead of Readies) so that they could be prepping the ability whilst engaging in attacks. That or use a custom "Extra Ready", since as far as I know "Extra Attack" isn't usable during a Ready maneuver, only during maneuvers with "Attack" in name.

I think the distinction would Aura would be "I must attack using this specific part of me" (usually either hands or mouth or eyes, but you could plausibly choose something else like shooting laser beams out of your nose or toxic gas out of your ears, etc) vs "people can attack any part of me" ("what are you doing to my elbow?").

Yeah, but Aura is a +80% Enhancement. Coupling it with Blood Agent and the required Melee Attack, means it's a net +10% (for those of you doing it without using multiplicative modifiers). So, I'm still not buying it.

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Originally Posted by Plane

Aura isn't a bad idea if you're wanting to avoid having to actually take attack maneuvers specifically dedicated to activating the ability. Aura with Delayed Effect (Exposure Time) probably makes more sense for "I need to be doing this, but I don't need to be thinking about it", as compared to Takes Extra Time which explicitly requires a series of Ready maneuvers, so your ability to activate it would be interrupted if you were stunned and had to Do Nothing.

But, in that case, you don't need Aura at all. Taking Triggered Delay (Climax) for +50% would work much better.

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Originally Posted by Plane

I remember reading something about switchable abilities automatically turning off when knocked unconscious but I can't remember if the modifier was an enhancement, limitation, or 0-point feature.

I think that was in 3E. There's a whole section in Powers about Turning Abilities Off and On (pg 153-157). The relevant section is on pg 155, unsurprisingly, in a section labeled "Unconsciousness." Let's just say, it's a lot more complex than just that.

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Originally Posted by Plane

This begs the question, do the conditions of Accessibility on a Takes Extra Time (or Requires Immediate Preparation) ability apply only upon the final moment of activation, or also during preparatory steps? If I have "Healing (Only While Flying, Takes Extra Time) would I need to be flying during the mandatory preceding Ready maneuvers too?

My interpretation of the rules: Yes. If you're not flying, you can't begin to initiate Healing. You must be flying the entire time of your Takes Extra Time.

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Originally Posted by Plane

If so, then would a Succubus actually count as being "sexually intimate" during those Ready maneuvers? You can't "attack" during a ready maneuver after all (including Grapple, Shoving People Around, or whatever might be used to approximate the past time) so the Succubus would pretty much would need to just lie there and let the victim do most of the movement, or else if they are doing the work, they would have to hold off initiating their Leech until the post-coital snuggling. The Ready maneuver does give a "Step" (as well as Active Defenses, Retreats) so perhaps those could be used as bed-bouncing currencies?

I would think so. To all of it.

During a ready maneuver, you can be casting a spell, moving around and doing various things, so, yeah.

My adding of All-Out to the ability doesn't change any of that, you're just too focused on it to make defense rolls. You're really into what you're doing.