Back in the Hermosa Beach era, traditionally we had a "DB Gg of the Pack" the Sunday of May closest to May 5th and one on the Sunday closest to the Autumnal Equinox. Then with the advent of the "Euro DB Gg of the Pack" in August we moved the fall Gg to the Sunday before Thanksgiving. The November date did not do well and so for the last few years we have gone to the format of the two day "Dog Brothers Tribal Gathering of the Pack" in may and a "DB Open Gathering of the Pack" on the Sunday closest to the Equinox.

The last two years the Open Ggs have gotten quite big (well over 60 fighters both times). This has meant a long time between fights for the fighters and I find myself wondering if we want to go back to two "DB Open Ggs of the Pack" a year as was done years ago (May and September) with the "DB Tribal Gg of the Pack" becoming the day before the May Open Gg so Tribal members who want to get in two consecutive days of fighting can do so?

Woof all! Have to say, as someone flying in for these events, I'm with Gong Fu Dog on this one. I like the current structure. Here comes an essay, but I've been thinking on this....

First, regarding the number of fighters at the open, it was a long day but did anybody at the end of the day feel like they didn't get to do the fights they wanted because the day was too long? As long as there's good drumming and good fights, I could have stayed another hour! There may come a point at which we need to limit the number of fighters (see my suggestion at the end) but I didn't sense that threshold was reached yet. Nobody said - "Ooops, 3PM, really wanted that last stick fight but everybody's hungry so I'll fly back to Texas without doing it......" Realistically another hour probably would do that, but I didn't get the sense that it happened yet. Once the knife fight and initial stick fights were past it thinned out pretty quickly, my last 3 fights weren't that far apart.

Regarding the current structure, I think that having the Tribal closed gives people a little more to shoot for, and frankly, I felt that the 2 days is perfect - even so I didn't get to fight nearly as many of the other tribe members as I would have liked. I would hate to see that diluted. 3 days logistically will start to get a little prohibitive for some, and injury-wise there can sometimes be too much of a good thing. Combining Open and Tribal events will make it a little difficult to avoid more spectators, and it will be a little harder to exclude people who "just show up with the rest of my school's fighters", meaning it will be a little harder to keep the quality and close feel that the Tribal has. It could be done, but not nicely if people don't respect the "closed location" idea. Lets say I bring out a new fighter for the Open part, what does he do during my Tribal day(s)? Perhaps it worked in the past, I wasn't there, the full DB's know better than I on that.

Regarding not being able to make a specific Gathering, sorry, but shit happens. If something is important enough to you, you will find a way. Hawaii doesn't have 2 official Ironman's because some people can't fly out there in a certain month. If you want to do it you plan accordingly. Life does sometimes get in the way, like weddings, deployments, etc. C'est la vie. Practice your art, sharpen your blade and surprise people even more at the next one. Having people spend some time between Gatherings (with the assumption that skills are improving in between and people are working towards a goal) is beneficial so that when fighters become part of the tribe there is a certain "quality control". Time alone does not assure this, but lack of time will certainly not help quality control. Things worth having need to be earned. What's the hurry?

Another consideration (here's my marketing plug and main point) is that there are now more places to go to get "seasoning" prior to and between Gatherings. If your only event of the year is the Open Gathering, you are not doing your homework. I traveled to Houston every quarter for a year to get marked up by Top Dog et al prior to and after my first Gathering, we have hosted fight days in New Braunfels, TX and will do so again. I know that C Shadow Dog and Dog Pete and Salty Dog have hosted fight days and will continue to do so; there are the BTCOOC events; my point is that there is now an effective "farm club" system out there for sharpening skills aside from the Open, and more schools should be hopping on the bandwagon every year - that's how we will grow. In addition to the "unofficial" opportunities to fight, there is now an official Dog Brothers Gathering in Canada, which is open, and of course Europe. If you want to fight more than once per year there are now plenty of venues - look for them! Rather than a second Open in California, I'd rather see us coordinate and support the Canadians to make each of our existing Gatherings as strong as possible. The second Open (with a capital O and full support and hoopla) should be the Canadian, IMHO. My understanding is that the same opportunities for advancement to Dog or Candidate, etc exist at the Canadian as at the Open and Tribal. I understand the Californians having different ideas about this, but as a national organization and network this is probably the rational plan for sustained growth. Schedule coordination between the events to allow some sort of "rhythm of the seasons" will be the key to success here. The current schedule isn't quite right for that, but that's another topic for another time....

Last point and a possible suggestion......if the Open gets too large, then make a requirement that a new fighter have fought in one of the various "farm club" events. Individuals should make the commitment to do the preparation and have some skills. You don't just go run the Boston Marathon....you have to qualify, and that's part of the reason its a premiere event. I'm not talking pro cards here, but SOME RCSF experience SOMEWHERE prior to stepping on the mat at at the Open would be a good idea. Have BTCOOC, or the various club events serve as a certifying opportunity (certifying participation, not skill) so that a person is not stepping out at the Gathering as their first EVER real contact event. True, the Open would not be truly Open in the sense of any Joe Schmoe off the street showing up, but this would be a boon for the various ancillary events and schools/clubs and would get us a higher level of participant at the Open. The Open would perhaps be a little tougher, but thats OK because everyone there would have done this before at SOME level SOME where.... Thats a win-win for the whole organization from the individual schools on up. It would also give more groups incentive to become official DBMAA schools or host local fighting events, probably in conjunction with seminars. Again, win/win.

I haven't been out to LA since 2007, but for what it's worth I'm with the Doc. Though... I'm not 100% with the idea of having to come through a 'farm club' as it disrupts the whole idea of an Open. I like the idea of a forum where you can simply just enter, it totally nullifies much of the BS our martial arts.

Three Opens (LA, Canada, Bern) and a Tribal in LA. We've had Tribal days the day before the Open in Bern and this has worked well for the 'fight junkies' who need more than one day. Maybe more Tribal days immediately before an Open is the answer. I'm very much of the idea of people paying their dues, you want to be 'Tribe' you put the travel, hours, planning, heart, etc in.

Also, I'm mildly worried about all the talk of progression (Dog, c-Dog, etc). With more Gatherings available now I'v had more people coming to me saying "I wanna be a Dog Brother!" like it's the Black Belt of stick fighting (which arguably it could be ). I'm mildly worried that with expansion will come a dilution of what it means to be 'Tribe' (though I have faith in my Elder ). I think a lot of us never really saw this as progression in the sense of 'belts' but more of an acceptance as standard of living as a fighter, martial artist and human being (though maybe I'm a little bit of a romantic ).

I like the idea of a forum where you can simply just enter, it totally nullifies much of the BS our martial arts.

This is very true, and I think it is important. It reinforces the core idea of minimal structure, and 'one rule only'. That one rule is so important, and so enabling (in terms of providing the space and freedom to explore the rest without constraint) that I would hate to see it diluted -- even for good logistical reasons. Consider this too: as it stands, naysayers can be offered an invitation, "Just show up and see for yourself." If qualifying events are required, then that is lost. The same mechanism that might serve to guard 'minimum standards' could also function as a kind of shield which could ironically soften the venue over time.

I donīt know if I will be able to go to gatherings in the US anymore for quite some time. I am basically married to Mexico now. Either way, I want to thank everyone for teaching me, for fighting me, and wish you the best. Iīll continue training here and fight with Guro Sanchez when work allows for it. Iīm more than willing to fight and get lots of training every single day.Perhaps the DBMA Distance program for military and law enforcement would be an option so I could start growing the tribe here.Either way, miss you guys.

Logged

Do not fear going anywhere, nor doing anything. You will die where you are supposed to.

Woof Point Dog and Mongolian Dog - good points and I agree about the spontaneity of the "open doors" policy. I was just throwing up an idea if it gets to the point where there are just too many fighters for a single day gathering at which point SOME way of limiting the number of entrants will be needed; but as I said at the beginning of the piece, I don't think we are there quite yet, and I'd rather not see that happen - if it does, here is an option. Anything we can do to get more people fighting in more places at more levels is a good thing, right? (The unofficial slogan of the anarchist party....)

I do get the sense that the tide of opinion is to protect the tribal the way it is.

I do get the sense also that the tide of opinion is that we need a second open.... again I repeat my encouragement to support the Canadians, but if the interest is high enough for a second in So Cal, well, the more the merrier as long as the experienced fighters don't get too "diluted" between events.

Anyway, good discussion. I don't envy Guro Crafty on the details of organizing all this!

We started having a single one-day Open, and a single two-day Tribal each year in California after the three-day 20th anniversary Gathering in 2008. I remember that some were opposed to making a weekend tribal an annual event at that time.

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Regarding not being able to make a specific Gathering, sorry, but shit happens. If something is important enough to you, you will find a way. Hawaii doesn't have 2 official Ironman's because some people can't fly out there in a certain month. If you want to do it you plan accordingly. Life does sometimes get in the way, like weddings, deployments, etc. C'est la vie. Practice your art, sharpen your blade and surprise people even more at the next one. Having people spend some time between Gatherings (with the assumption that skills are improving in between and people are working towards a goal) is beneficial so that when fighters become part of the tribe there is a certain "quality control". Time alone does not assure this, but lack of time will certainly not help quality control. Things worth having need to be earned. What's the hurry?

This is gold from C-D.D. Please remember that the paragraph above was written by a Texan, which makes it mean more than it would coming from a Californian who lives an hour from most of the West Coast Gathering sites here.

My suggestion is this:

Hold the next Gathering on an agreed upon weekend (in another thread, it looks like May 4th and 5th is pulling ahead).

1. On the Saturday of that weekend, start the Open around 9-9:30 am. 2. Break for lunch around 2ish. 3. An hour later, part 1 of the Tribal begins on Saturday for about 2 to 3 hours (on until the sun starts to set). Fighters who made Dog at the Open can continue fighting.

I think any Tribe event should procede any open. One of the reasons that the Tribal day is before the Open day is because of that strange thing that happens the day following a day of fighting, you're calmer, things click better, etc. Is it and unfair advantage to Tribe members on the second day? Well, if you have advange... Any advantage should remain with the Tribe.

I also don't sync with the idea of:

"Fighters who made Dog at the Open can continue fighting."

If it's someones second Gathering then they may make Dog, they also might not. Can't remember who said it but "You may be the best stickfighter in the world, but if you're a dick you'll never be a Dog Brother." Many might feel that they 'did' two Gatherings and are staying on... and when they weren't allowed to.... Why create a problem when it's easily avoidable? Also, just a personal thing, I like the feel of the day when the dubbings are the finale of the day. You never know who's going to get dubbed, etc, personally I get a big buzz from it!

I think any Tribe event should procede any open. One of the reasons that the Tribal day is before the Open day is because of that strange thing that happens the day following a day of fighting, you're calmer, things click better, etc. Is it and unfair advantage to Tribe members on the second day? Well, if you have advange... Any advantage should remain with the Tribe.

I also don't sync with the idea of:

"Fighters who made Dog at the Open can continue fighting."

If it's someones second Gathering then they may make Dog, they also might not. Can't remember who said it but "You may be the best stickfighter in the world, but if you're a dick you'll never be a Dog Brother." Many might feel that they 'did' two Gatherings and are staying on... and when they weren't allowed to.... Why create a problem when it's easily avoidable? Also, just a personal thing, I like the feel of the day when the dubbings are the finale of the day. You never know who's going to get dubbed, etc, personally I get a big buzz from it!

No, this is a reasonable discussion! I demand that you disagree with me! I don't come onto the internet for reasonable debate!

You make some fine points. Since everyone usually looks like they are full of a little less piss and vinegar on the second day anyway, the 1. full-day Tribal on Saturday 2. Traditionally scheduled Open on Sunday model would work just fine.

I will admit that I have been attempting to reconcile my role as a fighter with my role as a teacher and a father for the last two years, and while I am by no means retired, I have not made the CA Tribal for the last two years, so I don't know if the old Temecula formula of 1. fight from roughly 11 until 2pm 2. Lunch break 3. fight until late afternoon/early evening/the beginnings of sunset model for Saturday is still in play, which was what I had in mind when I made my suggestion above.

Your points also seem reasonable, and by adopting that model, that might be the closest we can get to making as many people happy as possible.

Since I have clearly not satisfied your Internet-fed addiction for the complete absence of civil discourse, here you go:

YOU'RE SO STUPID, POINT DOG! IF OUR REAL NAMES WERE EASILY ACCESSIBLE ANYWHERE ON THIS SITE, I WOULD SHOW UP AND KICK YOUR ASS. MY TRUCK ALSO HAS WAY BIGGER TIRES AND A LARGER TAP OUT STICKER ON THE BACK WINDOW THAN YOURS. YOU'VE BEEN FU&%IN' WARNED. DON'T EVER GO OVER MY FU%$IN' HEAD AGAIN, YOU MOTHERFU&%ER! (Okay, the last part was Joe Pesci's dialogue from when he's yelling at DeNiro in Casino).

Okay? I've insulted you with no real provocation and threatened to beat you up; is your world still crashing in on itself, or has order been restored?

YOU'RE SO STUPID, POINT DOG! IF OUR REAL NAMES WERE EASILY ACCESSIBLE ANYWHERE ON THIS SITE, I WOULD SHOW UP AND KICK YOUR ASS. MY TRUCK ALSO HAS WAY BIGGER TIRES AND A LARGER TAP OUT STICKER ON THE BACK WINDOW THAN YOURS. YOU'VE BEEN FU&%IN' WARNED. DON'T EVER GO OVER MY FU%$IN' HEAD AGAIN, YOU MOTHERFU&%ER! (Okay, the last part was Joe Pesci's dialogue from when he's yelling at DeNiro in Casino).

Okay? I've insulted you with no real provocation and threatened to beat you up; is your world still crashing in on itself, or has order been restored?

Ummm , , , the way I took that was that if you're a dick, you're not living by the principles. Yes?

I think that everyone that supports Obama is a dick, but then, thatīs me.

[/quote]

That was always my understanding, a lack of Heart.[/quote]I have zero heart.

Basically, point being; It seems the bigger the tribe grows, that to classify someone as a dick because they donīt hold the same views as others as a result of their life experiences to me, seems small. Maybe I am wrong. I know that I am newer than most, so, who am I to say?

« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 11:34:37 PM by DDF »

Logged

Do not fear going anywhere, nor doing anything. You will die where you are supposed to.

I'm not sure where you are coming from on this or where you are going.

The original statement in question is this:

"You may be the best stickfighter in the world, but if you're a dick you'll never be a Dog Brother."

This seems a simple truism to me and I confess I do not see why you are conflating divergence of views with being a dick/anus. Indeed, quite the contrary to your assertion here, the range of views and the diversity of life experiences in the Dog Brothers is quite remarkable.

Basically, point being; It seems the bigger the tribe grows, that to classify someone as a dick because they donīt hold the same views as others as a result of their life experiences to me, seems small. Maybe I am wrong. I know that I am newer than most, so, who am I to say?

I'm not sure where you're going here either, but I'll play. Views and principles are different things. We have DBs who are left on the political spectrum and DBs who are on the right, but what both groups have in common is a shared set of values. In short, they are all good people. Personally, I've never been comfortable with bringing a persons politics into the tribe, that is their own business (unless of course they are some kind of extremist who seek to harm others, then they aren't a good person and fall under the catagory of 'dick').

It isn't a 'popularity contest' as you put it, but rather do you live up to the principles of being a good person (and hell, we can argue all day what those are!!)

I'd love to chat a bit more, but I promised my son I'd only be 3mins on the laptop... this is me trying to be a good Dad and instill a bit of mutual respect, more later....