Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1994/raven.0894

Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr raven.0894
Last-Modified: 1994/09/07
Article 14536 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: cs932090@ariel.cs.yorku.ca (JOANNA I TIMARIU)
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Message-ID:
Sender: news@ariel.cs.yorku.ca
Organization: York University, Dept. of Computer Science
References:
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 02:33:11 GMT
Lines: 13
Greg Raven,
>Perhaps you missed the beginning of my posts here. I was asking for the
>best evidence of a Nazi policy or plan of extermination of Jews in gas
>chambers. Russian POW (short for "prisoners of war," just as "rpm" is short
>for "revolutions per minute"). This is very simple.
How about this for evidence: my grandfather's entire family has been a victim
of this plan. For me, this is enough of an evidence. It's as simple as that.
Joanna
Article 14539 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:35:16 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 37
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In article , golux@mcs.com (The only
Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) wrote:
> Tell you what, Greg. Leaving aside your rather bizarre view of how to
> investigate history (or anything, for that matter -- how many serious
> researchers would use a single data point to prove a hypothesis?), let's
> assume that for each piece of evidence posted here, there is one person,
> somewhere, who believes that that piece of evidence is the "best" piece.
> If you want, we can limit it to the evidence posted within the past week,
> or even to those posted in threads in which you have participated.
I have not said that anyone would use a single data point to prove a
hypothesis. I merely want to make the discussion somewhat manageable. If we
can discuss one piece of evidence at a time, that would seem to be a much
more manageable method than that currently being employed here, if "method"
is not too strong a word to describe this newsgroup.
If you agree that it would be nice to have a more manageable discussion,
and that discussing one piece of evidence at a time would be nice, then why
not start with the "best" piece of that evidence? I don't think I am being
unreasonable, and the unrelenting howls of protest by those who claim to
have evidence, but yet who avoid presenting it in an orderly fashion and
then mischaracterize my position in order to justify their methodology,
seems to support the approach I suggest.
By the way, for all the protests directed my way for trying to bring a
little order to this discussion, no one has offered an alternative plan,
workable or not.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14541 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:40:46 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 16
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31gemu$4l7@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <31gemu$4l7@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net (Michael
P. Stein) wrote:
> (text of the finger file for greg.ihr@kaiwan.com deleted)
You just saved my the effort of e-mailing you. I recently figured out how
to change the information received when fingered, and I am gratified to see
that I got the permissions set correctly.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14542 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassings in the Old Reich
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:46:52 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 54
Message-ID:
References: <319dts$s3c@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31aoig$qe1@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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In article <31aoig$qe1@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> Raven keeps lying. Broszat never said there were no gas chambers in
> the "Old Reich". He said that the *mass gassings* took place in
> the camps the SS built in Poland.
Hhere is the widely-quoted 1960 letter by Dr. Martin Broszat, as it
appeared in the Hamburg weekly Die Zeit under the headline RKeine Vergasung
in DachauS (RNo Gassing in DachauS). It appeared in the German edition of
August 19, 1960, and in the US edition of August 26, 1960 (p. 14). Dr.
Broszat writes in the name of the prestigious Institute for Contemporary
History (Institut fuer Zeitgeschichte). He later served as director of the
Munich-based archive and research center, which is funded by German
taxpayers.
Here is a translation of the complete text of BroszatUs letter:
Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other
prisoners gassed. The gas chamber in Dachau was never entirely finished or
put Rinto operation.S Hundreds of thousands of prisoners who perished in
Dachau and other concentration camps in the Old Reich [that is, Germany in
its borders of 1937] were victims, above all, of the catastrophic hygienic
and provisioning conditions: according to official SS statistics, during
the twelve months from July 1942 through June 1943 alone, 110,812 persons
died of disease and hunger in all of the concentration camps of the Reich.
The mass extermination of the Jews by gassing began in 1941-1942 and
occurred exclusively in a few facilities selected and equipped with
appropriate technical installations, above all in the occupied Polish
territory (but at no place in the Old Reich): in Auschwitz-Birkenau, in
Sobibor on the Bug [river], in Treblinka, Chelmno and Belzec.
It is at those places, but not in Bergen-Belsen, Dachau or Buchenwald,
where the mass extermination facilities, spoken of in your article [in an
earlier issue of Die Zeit], were built and disguised as shower baths or
disinfection rooms. This necessary differentiation does not, of course,
change anything regarding the criminal character of the facility that was
the concentration camp. However, it may perhaps help eliminate the annoying
confusion that arises from the fact that some ineducable people make use of
a few arguments that, while correct, are polemically torn from the context,
and that, rushing to respond to them are other people who, although they
have the correct overall view, rely upon false or mistaken information.
Dr. M. Broszat
Institute for Contemporary History
Munich
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14543 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassings in the Old Reich
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:49:21 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 29
Message-ID:
References: <31aoig$qe1@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31ccdd$7sb@ankh.iia.org> <31ecpr$m23@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <31ecpr$m23@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> Friedrich Berg, the "revisionist scholar" who calls those who argue
> with him "Jewish trash", "Jewish slime", "creatures" etc, asks:
>
> # Perhaps Mr. Keren would care to tell us which 6 camps in the "Old Reich"
> # had been the site of "gassings" according to the Institute of
> # Contemporary History in Munich.
>
> The summary sent to me from the ICH is below. Feel free to quote from
> it, under the following conditions:
>
> 1) Verbatim quotes only.
> 2) The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe has to be cited as the source.
>
> **********************************************************************
> Concerns: The killing of people through gas in the extermination and
> concentrations camps under the Nazi power
Do you have any explanation for the camps that sometimes appear on this
list and sometimes do not, such as Majdanek and Dachau, to list just two?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14544 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:50:50 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 36
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31a20m$2cl@access3.digex.net> <31apvf$rb0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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In article <31apvf$rb0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> This is really like talking to a brick wall, but I'll try nontheless.
>
> 1) It is impossible to choose "the best piece of evidence" for the
> Holocaust. For instance, how can one choose which of the eyewitness
> testimonies for the gassings at the various camps is "best"?
I would think that if truly there were good evidence, you would not be
forced to cite testimonies, which are notoriously poor on this (and other)
topics. How about some physical evidence? How about some contemporaneous
evidence? Something tangible would be nice.
> 2) The reality of any historical event is not in the single "best
> piece of evidence", but in the amount of the evidence present and the
> way it converges to a similar general picture of what happened.
>
>
> Why is it so difficult to understand this?
>
This is true, as far as you go. However, you must be careful when
constructing a circumstancial case such as this one, because with the same
approach you use to "prove" the planned homicidal gassings of Jews, someone
else could "prove" that aliens from other solar systems have visited Earth.
After all, there are hundreds of testimonies, and even some photos. How can
you support Holocaust gassing claims, but deny UFO claims (assuming you
do)?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14545 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:55:01 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 28
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:
>
> Perhaps Raven can clarify this demand he has made which apparently to
> many of us seems idiotic. Maybe we all misunderstand him.
>
> He wants the single best piece of evidence of the Holocaust.
>
> I assume Mr Raven believes World War II occurred (?)
>
> So what is the single best piece of evidence that World War II
> occurred?
>
> Just as an example of the kind of thing he is looking for.
I would perhaps start off with declarations of war from both the Axis and
Allied sides (presented one at a time, of course!), and then perhaps move
to official documents about military campaigns, backed up with
contempareneous photos of those campaigns, and perhaps finish with corpses
that could be shown to have been the result of wartime action. Simple.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14546 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 23:08:54 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 59
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References: <31h4nm$7id@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:
> Although it's been 50 years surely out of millions of these supposed
> survivors many, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of these
> people thought dead must still be alive.
>
> Many would not even be very elderly. How many WWII veterans are still
> alive, by comparison? Many, right? There are a half dozen WWII
> veterans alive just counted among my father and uncles.
>
> So where are these millions of survivors that supposedly died in the
> camps but the revisionsts claim actually escaped to the Soviet Union?
>
> Or their children, friends, relatives, etc?
>
> How many such stories would it take to get some notice? A dozen?
> Probably not. One hundred? Maybe that would be interesting, "100
> people who supposedly died in concentration camps found alive and well
> in the former Soviet Union", I think that would capture some interest
> from the media, from someone (perhaps revisionists even?)
>
> But the claim by the revisionists is millions!
>
> It's *their* number.
>
> And I don't think it's outrageous to say that there must therefore be
> tens of thousands of such people alive today.
>
> A fair number is probably at least in the hundreds of thousands if not
> over a million, but even merely ten thousand people thought dead being
> discovered alive and well should captivate some interest, wouldn't
> escape notice.
You are making a couple of assumptions. First, you are assuming that "lost"
people look for each other. This we know not to be the case. For example,
when Mark Weber and David Cole were on the Montel Williams Show, "survivor"
Ernst Hollander claimed his brother had been murdered by the Nazis. Well,
it turns out his brother was still alive in Eastern Europe, and Ernst never
bothered to look for him.
You are also assuming that there are few stories of reunions. Without more
research I cannot give you a number, but IHR founder David McCalden used to
delight in collection stories about the reunion of family members
"murdered" by the Nazis in the Holocaust.
Third, you are assuming that it is easy to search for a "lost" family
member even if you try. This is obviously not the case, as can be seen by
the results of the (Arolsen?) center that conducts such searches. However,
according to the figures I saw in the paper a few months back, they confirm
more people alive than they do dead.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14547 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz facts: Where to find them
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 23:18:09 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 40
Message-ID:
References: <1994Jul28.223120.5451@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <1994Jul28.223120.5451@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:
> The following video is available - send the command GET
> HOLOCAUST/BIBLIOGRAPHY SSSS.VIDEO-1 to server@oneb.almanac.bc.ca to
> learn where you can obtain it for your library or educational
> institution.
>
> HOLOCAUST: Liberation of Auschwitz. When Soviet troops liberated
> Auschwitz on January 27, 1945, a cameraman accompanied them to record
> the liberation process. This powerful program incorporates the
> personal impressions of the camerman, Alexander Woronzow, with his
> haunting footage. The camera documents the fearful faces of Auschwitz
> survivors, who didn't know the Soviets were their liberators. The
> commentary describes the selection process which sent some inmates to
> work while others went to their deaths, horrific medical experiments,
> and daily life within Auschwitz. WARNING: not recommended for
> unprepared audiences due to the intensely graphic presentation of
> atrocities. Grades 9 and up. Colour and black-and-white. 18 minutes.
> Encyclopaedia Britannica. Copyright 1990.
Interesting. The Germans told Auschwitz inmates that the Soviets were
coming, and offered them a chance to either leave with the Germans or stay
and wait for the Soviets. Few waited. In fact, Elie Wiesel and his father
opted for the Germans, as can be read in his book, "Night."
It is also interesting to find anyone willing to accept wholeheartedly
anything offered by the Soviets, especially in light of the Soviets'
attempts to demonize the "fascists" (Nazis).
Finally, according to this blurb, the selection (and possibly the gassing)
process is described, but what about some footage of gas chambers, gassed
corpses, or other tangible artifacts?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14548 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gannon's failure to post IHR journals
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 23:22:01 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 23
Message-ID:
References: <9407280139.02BNL00@banished.com> <1994Jul28.223517.5628@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <1994Jul28.223517.5628@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:
> Hey, Nazi-Boy, won't the IHR let you post their stuff anymore? (It
> was such a rich source of vitriolic nonsense, and you used to post
> it regularly... did your scanner break down, or did the IHR simply
> decide you were embarrassing, and cut you loose?
Mr. Gannon is more than capable of replying for himself, but on behalf of
the IHR, I would like to say that I send him the full text of all articles,
reviews, and historical news and comment from each new Journal as it comes
out, usually within a week of it going to the printer. I understand Dan has
been busy starting a new business lately (in addition to his school work),
so it is possible he is backlogged with work, as are all of us. However, he
does have all the text, directly from us, and is welcome to post all of it
that is not copyrighted by the author.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14552 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More "Open Debate" (was: Re: Raven's methodology)
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:02:29 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <31ia6l$2oa@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <31a20m$2cl@access3.digex.net> <31apvf$rb0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
How does Raven assume WW2 happened? How does he assume Dresden was
bombed (which I assume he does)?
Let us expand this "revisionism". The following claims are often
made by "revisionists":
1) WW2 happened.
2) Dresden was bombed.
3) The Soviet soldiers killed and raped many German civilians.
Now, I am not saying this did not happen. What I want is to see the
"revisionists" prove these things happened - and give a proof
which satisfies their standards.
I want to understand how the "revisionist mind" works. In order to
understand this, I first have to understand what "revisionists"
accept as proof.
I am waiting for Raven to:
A) State if he believes 1-3 above are true.
B) If he believes they are true, prove them.
I hope he is not too much of a coward to skip the challenge.
We have to be intellectually honest. If the Holocaust is to be the
subject of "revisionist open debate", so should 1-3 above.
-Danny Keren.
Article 14553 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassings in the Old Reich
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:04:49 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <31iab1$2oj@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <31ccdd$7sb@ankh.iia.org> <31ecpr$m23@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
Maidanek does appear on the list, and so does Dachau.
-Danny Keren.
Article 14554 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassings in the Old Reich
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:21:49 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <31ibat$3ak@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <31aoig$qe1@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
I'll answer again, with the hope it sinks in one day.
Broszat, in his 1960 letter, mentions 3 camps in which gassing did not
take place. Nowhere does he say that no gassing took place in the
"Old Reich". Is this point too difficult to understand?
If Raven considers Broszat a reliable source, he should stop
distorting what he says. And he should also agree to what Broszat says
about the mass gassings in the death camps the SS built in Poland.
I posted here the letter from the "Institute for Contemporary
History" which does say that gassings took place inside the "Old
Reich".
Moreover, the "Institute for Contemporary History" is aware of the
lies the "revisionists" spread, which is why the letter they sent to
me included the following:
In order to elucidate different circulating misinformation we
furthermore would like to state:
On the part of the Institute for Contemporary History it was never
maintained that there would nowhere have been gas chambers in the
concentration camps in the area of the old German Reich (Oldreich).
It was only (in a letter of Dr. Martin Braszat, back then scientific
coworker, from 1972 to his death in October 1989 director of the
Institute for Contemporary History, to the weekly newspaper "Die
Zeit" which was published in its edition from 8/19/1960) determined
that the "mass extermination of Jews through gassing... (took place)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
exclusively at a few for this purpose selected and with the aid of
appropriate technical furnishings equipped places, especially in the
occupied Polish territory (but nowhere in the Oldreich)". The names
of these extermination camps are in the first part of the list
above.
By the way, the emphasis under the "mass extermination..." appears in the
original, it's not mine.
I hope that, in view of this, Raven stops with his lies.
-Danny Keren.
Article 14557 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassings in the Old Reich
Date: 1 Aug 1994 10:07:02 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr in his trial
at Hamburg:
[Quoted in "Truth Prevails", ISBN 1-879437-00-7, p. 99].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Is it correct that you have gassed 200 Russian POW's with Zyklon-B?
A: Yes, on orders.
Q: Where did you do that?
A: In Neuengamme [concentration camp].
Q: On whose order?
A: The local doctor, Dr. Von Bergmann.
Q: With what gas?
A: With Prussic acid [another name for Zyklon-B].
Q: How long did the Russians take to die?
A: I do not know. I only obeyed orders.
Q: How long did it take to gas the Russians?
A: I returned after two hours and they were all dead.
Q: For what purpose did you go away?
A: That was during lunch hour.
Q: You left for your lunch and came back afterwards?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they dead when you came back?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you look at their bodies?
A: Yes, because I had to load them.
Q: Why did you apply the gas to the Russians?
A: I only had orders to pour in the gas and I do not know anything
about it.
-Danny Keren.
Article 14559 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Raven's Myopia, revisited...
References:
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Aug01.221941.15910@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 22:19:41 GMT
In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>In article , golux@mcs.com (The only
>Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) wrote:
>By the way, for all the protests directed my way for trying to bring a
>little order to this discussion, no one has offered an alternative plan,
>workable or not.
Once again Mr. Raven's May 4th. Myopia comes to the fore, as he
continues to ignore an article posted here at least six times which
offers a response to his "challenge," and a suggested approach to
the matter... eventually, one must hope, Mr. Raven will have someone
read it to him, in simple English, so he will understand it.
--
/^\__/^\ The Old Frog's Almanac
/ @ @ \ A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
( ) Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
\ ~~~~ / (Mail to this system has bounced since 28 July - keep trying)
Article 14562 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's methodology
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 11:44:13 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 62
Message-ID:
References:
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<315pq6$d9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>
> If you agree that it would be nice to have a more manageable discussion,
> and that discussing one piece of evidence at a time would be nice, then why
> not start with the "best" piece of that evidence? I don't think I am being
> unreasonable, and the unrelenting howls of protest by those who claim to
> have evidence, but yet who avoid presenting it in an orderly fashion and
> then mischaracterize my position in order to justify their methodology,
> seems to support the approach I suggest.
Liar. (Ken, are we keeping a "liar" file for Greg?)
Brian Harmon, Danny Keren, Ken McVay, Michael Stein, and I presented ten
documents "in an orderly fashion" on May the 4th. It has since been posted
three more times, and has been emailed to you at least once, and I have
received email _back_ from you confirming that you received it.
But perhaps I'm jumping the gun -- perhaps you're not referring to any of
us five when you speak of "those who claim to have evidence, but yet who
avoid presenting it in an orderly fashion and then mischaracterize my
position." Would you care to name someone whom you believe has done this,
besides we five?
I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, you see.
> By the way, for all the protests directed my way for trying to bring a
> little order to this discussion, no one has offered an alternative plan,
> workable or not.
Liar.
In that article that first appeared on May the 4th, we asked Mr. Raven to
"provide us with what he thinks are the one or two best pieces of evidence
that the Nazis did _not_ exterminate millions of people in homicidal gas
chambers." I personally have repeated that request several times.
This is not only an alternative plan, it's highly superior to Mr. Raven's
suggestion, for reasons which have been detailed many times on this
newsgroup, in the May 4th article and in my personal remarks thereon.
In fact, I've been making this request of Dan Gannon since about a month
after I started reading alt.revisionism, which would be around the spring
or summer of 1991. And, as other Nazi apologists and Holocaust-deniers
have wandered through these electronic halls, I believe at one point or
another I've directed the question to each of them individually.
If not, I hereby ask anyone who believes that the Nazis did not try to
exterminate millions of civilians in the early 1940s:
Pick the topic. Name the one area in which we should focus discussion,
that you think will best make your case. For example: Leuchter's
forensic findings; diesel engines and Reinhard; population reports;
the difficulty of using HCN. I've looked into all of these examples
and have found them all to be bogus claims. If your argument is that
I'm simply not looking deeply enough, then pick the one claim that you
think is your best, and we will focus all our efforts thereon, looking
as deeply as it takes.
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
Article 14563 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 11:53:06 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 41
Message-ID:
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<31evk8$kdg@ankh.iia.org>
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bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg) wrote:
> Dear Mr. Keren,
>
> Is it your position that Zyklon-B was used at Auschwitz-Birkenau and/or
> Auschwitz I ONLY for mass-murder--or are you willing to say that it was
> ALSO used in those camps to save people's lives?
Mr. Berg, stop clouding the issue. Clarity is essential to education.
Confusion hinders it.
No one denies that Zyklon-B was used for its original purpose, killing
lice.
And it's also true, though kooks deny it, that it was used to kill
batches of human beings as well.
Other things no one denies: the Nazis ordered special batches of
Zyklon that lacked the identifying odor (you know, the way they add
bad-smelling stuff to natural gas so you'll figure out something's wrong
if there's a leak). The rooms that deniers call "morgues" had
gas-tight doors, and showerheads that weren't connected to anything, and
tiny peepholes protected from the inside by a mesh of iron bars (must
have been some pretty active cadavers in that "morgue").
> P.S. My position on "Sonderbehandlung" is certainly not contradicted in
> the slightest by anything Kremer wrote in his diary--only by what he felt
> obliged to say in his postwar trial.
Perhaps now you'd like to claim that Kremer was tortured? Brutalized?
Brainwashed? Tricked? That he was promised Twinkies if he admitted
that "Sonderaktion" and "Sonderbehandlung" meant what everyone knew
they meant?
Come on, don't hint. Out with it.
And don't forget to present your evidence.
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
Article 14565 of alt.revisionism:
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From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: 1 Aug 1994 17:44:03 +0200
Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <31j583$oen@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl>
References:
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
I wonder why so serious historians don't do their research
in places where the Jews weren't exterminated. You can
collect about 1000$ and come for several days to Poland.
You may visit Oswiecim and maybe you would find people
who saw in 1944 Jews leaving Auschwitz. You can find
people who forged gas chambers, cremas, collections of
false teeths, haars and toys. You may probably
find people who worked in cremas who are much more
competent than a man from Toronto
who probably burns 10 corpses per day.
But be prepared to be taken to a Polish asylum. We Poles
are very unfair to 'revisionists'. We treat them.
Rather don't discuss your theories with Polish antisemites.
They might think that you are polling their legs which
they don't like. Jerzy PAnkiewicz
Article 14566 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 12:24:55 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 46
Message-ID:
References:
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<31e7fs$fi3@ankh.iia.org>
<31fgap$2gg@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.132.2.15
mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
[Berg describes why he considers something a forgery:]
> >First of all,
> >on September 7, 1945 the Nuremberg prosecution admitted already on their
> >cover document that: "Source of Original: Unknown--Obtained from OCC
> >London."
>
> I truly must be dumb. Berg expects me to believe those clever Jewish
> forgers could fabricate this document, but couldn't fabricate a
> little note about where it came from.
Yep yep yep.
I find it really interesting how, even as they try to distance themselves
from the hard-core Nazis, the deniers resort to the same logic. It's a
common feature of Nazi-apologist and neo-Nazi propaganda that Jews are
portrayed as simultaneously brilliant and imbecilic. The Jews are clever
buggers who had taken over the entire world media even in the early years
of this century. And they've managed to pull off that "Holocaust hoax,"
a project comparable in scale to the moon shot, without leaving behind
any traces of their having done so. But of the millions of forgery jobs
they did for the "hoax," they somehow weren't able to make a single one
of them look convincing! Amazing! Talk about idiot-savants!
I think once, while thumbing through a collection of Nazi anti-Semitic
propaganda, I read something about Jews being "clever like foxes" --
they aren't really intelligent, but they have a sort of animal cunning.
Yeah right, whatever.
> >Now, let's consider the Francke-Gricksch report. There is NO such
> >document anywhere. There is only a supposed "transcription."
> >That is clearly spelled out even by Pressac.
>
> This is what Pressac spells out: "The report was found in
> [Franke-Gricksch's] career file and is now thought to be preserved in the
> National Archives Collection of World War II, War Crimes Records, in
> Washington, under reference NA RG 238." (p. 239) Pressac hasn't been to
> look for the original, but NOWHERE does he say it's missing.
Ken, do we have a "liar" file for Fritz? Should we start one?
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
Article 14567 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:14567 sci.skeptic:59419
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 12:48:55 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 90
Message-ID:
References:
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.132.2.15
Mr. Raven actually makes a good point.
He manages, however, to show that he doesn't really understand what's
going on.
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>...you must be careful when
> constructing a circumstancial case such as this one, because with the same
> approach you use to "prove" the planned homicidal gassings of Jews, someone
> else could "prove" that aliens from other solar systems have visited Earth.
> After all, there are hundreds of testimonies, and even some photos. How can
> you support Holocaust gassing claims, but deny UFO claims (assuming you
> do)?
(First of all--the "case" for the Holocaust is _not_ "circumstancial." But
I'll let that go, to get to my point.)
There are indeed hundreds of testimonies, nay thousands, saying that
aliens have visited our planet. And for the record, I think every one of
them is wrong. (I'm not an expert, though, and have no desire to be one;
please don't ask me to argue about UFOs, I find the topic utterly boring.)
The reason I dismiss them all so effortlessly is that there is no
convergence of evidence. Every one of the testimonies regarding UFOs has
different details -- they have skinny heads, they have two heads, they have
no heads, they're nothing but balls of gas, they're ten-foot-tall reptiles,
whatever. Their spacecraft are cigar-shaped, they're saucer-shaped, they're
long rows of lights, they're totally silent, they make a tremendous noise,
they glide smoothly along, they dart and zoom around, whatever.
Now, surely some of these stories are similar, because of sheer random
chance (get enough snowflakes, and two of them are bound to look pretty
much alike). And surely some of them are similar, because people who make
up UFO stories aren't always the most imaginative -- there are probably
a hundred stories about big-eyed, hairless aliens with no noses, right?
(I'm reminded of the scene in that horrible movie, "Communion" was it?,
where all the people who'd seen UFOs were in therapy together. The main
character says he's seen them, and two or three others chime in with,
"was it the guys with the big teeth? or the ones with the round heads?"
Sheesh, how many alien visitors can one planet support?)
Anyway -- the analogy Mr. Raven is trying to make is of the UFO-sighters
to the testimonies of people who have survived the Holocaust. This fails
for a number of reasons. But the biggest reason is: the testimonies of
Holocaust survivors are _consistent_.
For the analogy to hold, there would have to be almost as many stories
as there are survivors. One would say they were killed with gas, three
would say the Nazis burned them at the stake, two would subscribe to
the mass-guillotine story, one would say they were tortured to death.
And there would have to be other discrepancies as well.
Now, I'm not denying that some testimonies are false, for whatever
reasons. Surely _some_ of the witnesses are lying and making things
up -- there are just too many witnesses for that not to happen.
Surely some have failing memories. Faurisson delights in finding the
rare cases of witnesses that swear to things we now know to be false,
such as electrocutions, or killing by steam, or gassings in places
where we now believe no gassings happened.
But the vast majority have stories that agree on the major details, or
at least don't contradict each other (also important).
And, occasionally, details of witnesses' testimonies have been
surprisingly accurate; sometimes, historians discount testimony as
fabricated when, years later, it turns out the witness was right!
It would be as if 98% of all UFO sighters agreed that the aliens looked
pretty much identical, that their spaceships looked and worked alike,
and so on. And let's say that UFO sighters reported a loud noise
when the spacecraft exceeded the speed of sound, way back before we
knew about sonic booms. _Then_ I would give _much_ more credence to
their stories.
The second big reason the analogy fails is that we have much other
evidence _besides_ testimony. It is as if we had captured the leaders
of the aliens in 1945, and had interrogated them and put them on trial.
Had we done that, I'd be much more inclined to believe in UFOs.
But Mr. Raven wants to restrict discussion to one piece of evidence at
a time, and ignore the _convergence_ of evidence. Science doesn't work
that way.
Note the crosspost.
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
Article 14572 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 13:28:39 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 44
Message-ID:
References:
<315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.132.2.15
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> I would perhaps start off with declarations of war from both the Axis and
> Allied sides (presented one at a time, of course!), and then perhaps move
> to official documents about military campaigns, backed up with
> contempareneous photos of those campaigns, and perhaps finish with corpses
> that could be shown to have been the result of wartime action. Simple.
How are you going to present these declarations of war, Mr. Raven? Do you
have a recording of FDR's radio address? Recordings can be easily forged,
you know; do you have witnesses to his delivering it? Do you have any
official court that has determined whether or not your recording is real?
(Faurisson has demanded that and more of Himmler's recorded speech at
Poznan. A court recognized it as genuine; that isn't enough for
Faurisson.)
You claim that you have written declarations of war? How many people
signed them? Were there witnesses to the signing? Was the fact that
these important politicians signed the documents written up in the
newspapers of the day? Why not? You claim that "everyone knew" that
the world was at war, and that therefore the signing of the documents
would be relatively unimportant, but that's rather a transparent claim.
Keep in mind, Mr. Raven, that we Second World War Revisionists don't deny
that _some_ countries took part in the general skirmishes that occurred
around 1939-1945. But we Revisionists deny that any countries east of
Poland were involved. So you'll have to present declarations of war and
military campaigns and photos from the Soviet Union...and we all know
what skulduggery goes on behind the Iron Curtain, right? Anything that
comes from over there runs a very high risk of being a forgery, just
keep that in mind.
And photos...oh, please, don't make me laugh. Photos of corpses don't
prove anything -- it's obvious that all the victims died of typhus and
other diseases. Put a caption on a photo, and you can make it be
anything you want.
(That last paragraph could have been taken verbatim from just about any
Holocaust-denial propaganda...Butz and Faurisson are its intellectual
progenitors.)
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
Article 14576 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz facts: Where to find them
Message-ID:
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
References: <1994Jul28.223120.5451@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 19:18:18 GMT
Lines: 22
In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>
>Interesting. The Germans told Auschwitz inmates that the Soviets were
>coming, and offered them a chance to either leave with the Germans or stay
>and wait for the Soviets. Few waited. In fact, Elie Wiesel and his father
>opted for the Germans, as can be read in his book, "Night."
Interesting. Instead of just asserting this fact, please provide a page
number so I may consult my copy of Night.
>
>--
>
>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
>Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
[Inappropriate advertisements that were here deleted]
-DS
I speak for myself only.
No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else.
Please do not use my name in any subject headers.
Article 14578 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz facts: Where to find them
Date: 1 Aug 1994 20:54:13 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <31jndl$ars@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <1994Jul28.223120.5451@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
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I checked it out, although didn't have time to read in detail. Wiesel
writes the Auschwitz inmates were afraid that the SS was going to
murder all those who said they want to stay, and that is why they
chose to leave. They didn't leave because they felt safe with the SS.
Raven "forgot" that part, of course. Don't forget that you're dealing
with a "revisionist scholar" here.
What is amazing is that Raven thinks no one will bother to go and
check out his claims.
Reminds me of how nazi-boy Gannon was humiliated here when he
lied about the content of an article in some obscure magazine from
1919. Nontheless someone went and found it and, of course, it was
discovered nazi-boy blatantly misquoted the article. Poor nazi-boy
apologized for his "error" and never posted that piece again. Raven,
who should be smarter than Gannon, doesn't even try to find
obscure sources.
-Danny Keren.
Article 14583 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Sun, 31 Jul 1994 22:55:01 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 22:44:25 GMT
Lines: 123
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) [responding to me]
>> So what is the single best piece of evidence that World War II
>> occurred?
>>
>> Just as an example of the kind of thing he is looking for.
>
>I would perhaps start off with declarations of war from both the Axis and
>Allied sides (presented one at a time, of course!),
--------------------
From a speech by Adolf Hitler, January 30, 1942, Berlin Sports Palace:
"This war will not end as the Jews imagine, namely, in the liquidation
of all the European and Aryan poeples; the outcome of this war will be
the extermination of Jewry. For the first time it will not be other
nations who will bleed to death. For the first time we will practice
the ancient Jewish law: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
--------------------
-Speech by Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan, 10/4/43:
"I am referring here to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the
Jewish people. This is one of the things that is easily said: 'The Jewish
people are going to be exterminated,' that's what every party member says,
'sure, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination -- it'll
be done.' And then they all come along, the 80 million worthy Germans, and
each one has his one decent Jew. Of course, the others are swine, but this
one, he is a first-rate Jew. Of all those who talk like this, not one has
seen it happen, not one has had to go through with it. Most of you men know
what it is like to see 100 corpses side by side, or 500, or 1000. To have
stood fast through this and -- except for cases of human weakness -- to have
stayed decent that has made us hard."
--------------------
>and then perhaps move
>to official documents about military campaigns
--------------------
"Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three
vans, without any faults occuring in the vehicles."
Dr August Becker on 5 June 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Rauff
--------------------
Einsatzgruppe C
Standort Kiev
In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews in Kiev.
Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941
--------------------
"..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
from outside. They go down five or six steps into a fairly long,
well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined
with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and
the benches are numbered. The prisoners are told that they are to
be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments. They must therefore
completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
be able to find their things again after their bath. Everything
proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion. Then they pass through
a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
shower bath. In this room are three large pillars, into which
certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
dropped down into the pillars. As soon as the containers touch
the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
for the whole process.) The job itself is performed by Jewish
prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
in twenty-four hours."
--from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943. This
excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.
--------------------
During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.
Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
on 16 September 1942
--------------------
>backed up with
>contempareneous photos of those campaigns,
Photos have been presented but revisionists always claim they're
either forgeries or misrepresented (why? I don't know, mostly because
they disagree with the revisionists' viewpoint.)
>and perhaps finish with corpses
>that could be shown to have been the result of wartime action.
It's 1994, the war ended nearly 50 years ago, where would you get
corpses for examination?
But I think that's some sort of start.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 14585 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
References:
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Aug02.121927.20787@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 12:19:27 GMT
In article bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) [responding to me]
>>and perhaps finish with corpses
>>that could be shown to have been the result of wartime action.
>It's 1994, the war ended nearly 50 years ago, where would you get
>corpses for examination?
Not to mention the fact that not a single 50-year-old "corpse" has
been autopsied to show the cause of death. In fact, there is no
proof at all that these "corpses" even exist. Row upon row of
crosses in "cemetaries" don't prove that anything is "buried"
beneath them. I think this whole WWII thing is a massive scam
dreamed up by the Germans to shame the Yanks into providing them
with billions of dollars in aid.
The "troops" said to have "fought" in Europe actually were young
people who, in typical rebellion, simply got tired of living with
their parents, and, like teenagers will do, they ran away. Most are
now living in France.
>But I think that's some sort of start.
Hardly.
--
/^\__/^\ The Old Frog's Almanac
/ @ @ \ A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
( ) Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
\ ~~~~ /
Article 14588 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!sun!oucsace!dspiegel
From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: open debate
Message-ID:
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
References: <31h4nm$7id@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 22:52:32 GMT
Lines: 81
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>In article ,
> bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) wrote (text left out):
> [An excellent post - Asking why none of the people who
"disappeared" into the USSR have called home, among
other well-stated points]
>
>You are making a couple of assumptions. First, you are assuming that "lost"
>people look for each other. This we know not to be the case.
And how do we (who the hell is "we"?) know this? All I see is an
assertion. Prove it.
> For example,
>when Mark Weber and David Cole were on the Montel Williams Show, "survivor"
>Ernst Hollander claimed his brother had been murdered by the Nazis. Well,
>it turns out his brother was still alive in Eastern Europe, and Ernst never
>bothered to look for him.
Written as if one example {probably asserted out of context,
judging by the Raven track record} proves Raven's assertion. Why am
I not surprised?
>
>You are also assuming that there are few stories of reunions. Without more
>research I cannot give you a number, but IHR founder David McCalden used to
>delight in collection stories about the reunion of family members
>"murdered" by the Nazis in the Holocaust.
Another assertion backed by not even one scintilla of *evidence*. Being
a "historian", I'm sure that Mr. Raven *will* provide us a number.
Also, isn't that a nice description of IHR founder McCalden? So,
he "delights" in stories about families torn apart (with some members
likely murdered)? Just the kind of attitude all the IHR "historians" and
"scholars" think is is really neat, huh?
>
>Third, you are assuming that it is easy to search for a "lost" family
>member even if you try. This is obviously not the case, as can be seen by
>the results of the (Arolsen?) center that conducts such searches.
What are the results of the center whose name you don't even know?
How do they conduct searches? Under whose auspices do they operate?
Are there other such centers? Where do they look? Yet another assertion
backed by nothing.
All I know is that my father went searching for his family and was
able to find those who survived and bring them out from the Soviet Zone.
The rest were murdered, not lost, murdered. Let's see your numbers,
Raven. How many reunions were there? 11 million people are "missing",
according to your assertions (not backed up as usual) that they weren't
murdered. There's lots of evidence (much posted right here) that they
were murdered. As your pal Berg likes to say, put up or shut up.
> However,
>according to the figures I saw in the paper a few months back, they confirm
>more people alive than they do dead.
>
Uh, Mr. Scholar, could you maybe _post_ these figures (not to mention
which "paper") so we may all judge whether they "confirm" your assertion,
which, like all the rest you've made here, is that is not backed by
anything remotely resembling documentable fact.
>--
>
>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
>Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
[Inappropriate advertising deleted]
Raven,
I doubt you'll reply, as I'm asking for historical documentation, not
lame assertion. If you do reply, don't ask me to document anything. I've
made only one assertion, that my relatives were murdered. Once you
document your assertions, I'll ask the survivors for testimonies.
I don't hold myself up as a historian. You do. Put up or shut up.
-DS
I speak for myself only.
No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else.
Please do not use my name in any subject headers.
Article 14589 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Raven's methodology
Date: 1 Aug 1994 20:47:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <31k537$agu@access1.digex.net>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>If you agree that it would be nice to have a more manageable discussion,
>and that discussing one piece of evidence at a time would be nice,
I don't find the discussion unmanageable, and I am perfectly capable
of discussing three pieces of evidence at a time, the better to show the
interrelationships between them. Heck, I can even handle five or six -
eight or ten with a good night's sleep.
If Mr. Raven's intellect is too small to handle more than one piece
at a time, is that *my* problem?
>I don't think I am being unreasonable,
Neither do the people who wander down the street with shopping carts
full of rags, muttering about radio messages in their dental fillings.
However, they do not seem to be in the majority in holding that opinion
about their reasonableness. Neither is Mr. Raven.
> and the unrelenting howls of protest by those who claim to
>have evidence, but yet who avoid presenting it in an orderly fashion and
>then mischaracterize my position in order to justify their methodology,
>seems to support the approach I suggest.
What court proceeding has ever adopted the approach Raven suggests?
Every court proceeding lets one side tell its story, presenting all its
evidence and showing how it interrelates and adds up. The other side gets
to pick apart the individual pieces, and any which are shown to be truly
worthless can be discarded.
Let's just see how Mr. Raven's approach would work in a single simple
murder case. A dead body is not proof of murder - lots of people die of
natural causes. A dead body with a pathologist testifying that death
occurred due to a bullet is not proof of murder - it could have been an
accident or self-defense. So we must discard that evidence and look
elsewhere, as it is not proof. A body dead of a bullet proven by
ballistics tests to have come from my gun is not proof *I* murdered that
person - someone else may have used my gun. So we discard the ballistics
tests. Paraffin tests showing I fired my gun recently are not proof I
murdered anyone - I might have gone down to the shooting range. Since the
paraffin tests are not proof of murder, we discard them and move on. My
threats to kill the person who is dead are not proof of murder - lots of
people make empty threats. Drop that in the trash can. Ten eyewitnesses
who saw me shoot the victim are not proof of murder - we all know how
unreliable eyewitnesses are, and there *are* a number of people in the
world who look like me. Toss that; still no proof. Ten other
eyewitnesses who saw a car matching the description of mine, and with a
license plate number matching mine, peeling out of the area at the time of
the murder, is not proof of murder - my car might have been stolen, or I
might have been visiting a friend in the area. Scratch that one.
See, no proof at all!
Well, if I'm ever up on a murder charge with the above worthless
evidence against me, I'll make sure to try to get Greg Raven on the jury.
Oh, and if I manage to drop the gun down a sewer so it can't be
found? Obviously I cannot be convicted no matter what, as the murder
weapon cannot be established.
>By the way, for all the protests directed my way for trying to bring a
>little order to this discussion, no one has offered an alternative plan,
>workable or not.
Who appointed Greg Raven judge here? Especially since he is also
playing defense counsel? He has to make up his mind which role he's
going to play; it can't be both.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 14590 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Date: 1 Aug 1994 20:56:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <31k5j0$arl@access1.digex.net>
References: <31a20m$2cl@access3.digex.net> <31apvf$rb0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>How can you support Holocaust gassing claims, but deny UFO claims
>(assuming you do)?
I don't understand. Hasn't Ernst Zundel proved there *are* UFOs -
that these were Hitler's secret weapons still operating out of Antarctic
bases or something? Is Mr. Raven saying Mr. Zundel is an unreliable
source?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 14598 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joint response to Greg Raven
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 20:44:41 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 183
Message-ID:
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
To: "Michael P. Stein"
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Subject: Re: A Joint Response to Greg Raven (LONG)
At 11:33 6/6/94 -0400, Michael P. Stein wrote:
As requested, the article. You can also get it off McVay's server.
I have finally taken some time to go through the lengthy and largely
pointless "response" to my first postings on this topic, postings that
included a response to some non-evidence provided by Danny Keren. As I
stated originally, I do not have time for, and thus will not allow myself
to be dragged into, meta-discussions. I also do not want to go wandering
off-topic.
My proposal for conducting a somewhat civilized discussion of this topic
was to deal with one piece of evidence at a time, starting with whatever
the exterminationists consider to be the "best" evidence, and then working
on from there. I can only wonder why Keren and the others are so fearful of
approaching this topic carefully and honestly.
In the response below, I have excised all trivial and off-topic ramblings,
and confined myself to answering only the substantive points. Thus, this
response is MUCH shorter than the post to which it is directed:
After a few pages, Stein claims that the Nazis left behind proof of
homicidal gassings of Jews. In "rebuttal" to a statement of mine, he
posted:
>>.... except for the dynamited gas chambers, the records of the Zyklon-B shipments, and the testimony of those who participated - but Mr. Raven limited the scope of the discussion, so Dr. Keren couldn't include this mass of evidence into his response ...
How nice that Keren has Stein to interpret for him. But I did not demand
that Keren produce the truly awful post-war testimonies that he offered up.
If there are dynamited gas chambers, then by all means let us discuss them!
If the use of Zyklon B is the proof, then by all means let us delve into
that. Stein seems to be saying that even though Keren has tangible,
substantive evidence to support his position, he chooses to rely on bizarre
and off-point testimonies.
Stein then brings up the confession of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess:
>>But back to the claim Raven makes. Apart from the fallacy of suggesting that the Museum "depends" on Hoess to make a point - there are countless other pieces of evidence upon which they could similarly "depend" - is it true that Lipstadt and Browning "have admitted that the Hoess statements are useless"?
>>
>>No. A grain of truth, covered by an ocean of distortion.
Let's look at this. The US Holocaust Memorial Museum displays a portion
Hoess' confession to visitors the moment they arrive on the top floor, is
this not true? Even Stein seems to admit later that Hoess is not reliable,
so why does his statement appear so prominently in the USHMM? I will deal
with Browning's and Lipstadt's position on Hoess shortly.
>>The grain of truth is that Hoess made rather bad estimates of how many people were exterminated while he was Kommandant of Auschwitz. In his testimony, he estimated 2.5 million were killed; it has been known for decades that this number is far too high. Current estimates range from 1.2 to 1.5 million deliberately gassed, and many more killed by other means, primarily the simple but effective combination of starvation, overwork, and disease.
That grain of truth is attached to a rather large boulder of truths
exterminationists choose to ignore. Hoess also stated that there was an
extermination camp at Wolzek. Wrong.
>>In his memoirs, Hoess writes "During previous interrogations I have put the number of Jews who arrived in Auschwitz for extermination at two and a half millions. This figure was supplied by Eichmann who gave it to my superior officer, Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks, when he was ordered to make a report to the Reichsfuehrer SS [Himmler] shortly before Berlin was surrounded. Eichmann, and his permanent deputy Guenther, were the only ones who possessed the necessary information on which to calculate the total number destroyed. ... I myself never knew the total number and I have nothing to help me make an estimate of it." (Bezwinska, pp. 126-7)
>>
>>Hoess merely warns that the 2.5 million figure, which he got essentially from hearsay, is shaky. Later he writes: "I regard a total of two and a half millions as far too high. Even Auschwitz had limits to its destructive possibilities." (Ibid, p. 129)
Let's think about this for a moment. Hoess was the commandant of Auschwitz
(although not for the entire existence of the camp). He would not have had
to rely on Eichmann (who denied having supplied any such figures) to know
how many people he had had put to death under his command. And because he
was not commandant for the entire existence of the camp, it stands to
reason that the number of those murdered should have been a sum of those
victims under Hoess' administration and those of all other administrations.
The number of victims should be higher, not lower!
>>Now jump ahead to the present. In December 1993, a three-page article on "revisionism" appeared in _Vanity Fair_ (not exactly a professional historical journal). A half-page discusses "the most sinister of the current revisionist arguments - if indeed it is an argument at all," Holocaust-denial. (p. 117) The author contacted Browning and Lipstadt to get their opinions of Hoess.
>>
>>Browning said, "Hoess was always a very weak and confused witness ... the revisionists use him all the time for this reason, in order to try and discredit the memory of Auschwitz as a whole." (ibid) Weak and confused is one thing, but where does Browning say that "the Hoess statements are useless?" Nowhere.
The revisionists use Hoess because the exterminationists have for years
depended on his forced confession to be the cornerstone of the myth of mass
homicidal gassings. I challenge anyone to check this for himself. Check out
books on the Holocaust and see how many quote Hoess. Hoess' confession and
subsequent testimony were certainly taken seriously at the Nuremberg (and
other) war crimes trials.
>>Lipstadt directed the article's author to her book, which merely points out what historians have known for decades: Hoess was wrong about the total death count. But where does Lipstadt say the "the Hoess statements are useless"? Again, nowhere.
This is a gross distortion of the Vanity Fair article. As I have responded
elsewhere, Lipstadt equates Hoess' statements to the stories about "human
soap," saying essentially that these errors must be admitted to be errors
in order to avoid giving more ammunition to the revisionists. I challenge
anyone to read the actual text of the Vanity Fair article and come away
with the impression that Browning and Lipstadt stand behind Hoess'
confessions.
Stein then quotes some other Hoess nonsense about gassing. Before
responding, I would ask that Stein tell me if this statement represents to
him the best evidence of the homicidal gassing myth.
>>Mr. Raven goes on to note: "Stark claims that the gassings were already taking place in the autumn of 1941," and then performs another bit of denial slight-of-hand. As the evidence shows, the gassings which occured at Auschwitz in the Fall of 1941 were experimental in nature. The following information, from the Auschwitz FAQ, discusses the matter:
I can't believe this is so difficult to understand. I asked specifically
for the best evidence of a Nazi plan or policy of exterminating the Jews in
gas chambers. Claims (and bogus ones at that) about experimental gassings
are not responsive. Is there evidence or is there not? If there is not,
just say so.
Stein then attempts to defend Keren's use of Kremer's TESTIMONY rather than
the contemporaneous diary kept by Kremer during the time he served at
Auschwitz. Encyclopedia references, testimony from the 1950s (and 1960s,
and 1970s, etc), and scraps of Soviet-supplied documents may be
interesting, but they are hardly solid evidence.
Stein then moves on to the testimony of Boeck, which Keren provided:
>>"...of this statement, pointing out, for example, that Boeck could only have witnessed one such gassing (at most)."
>
>Is "at most" in Pressac's original text, or is it a clever insertion on Mr. Raven's part, as we are only presented with a paraphrase, not a direct quote, and no exact page citation to make it easy to check the accuracy of it, so that if we want to verify it for ourselves we must take the time to read Pressac cover to cover?
Well, if you were familiar with Pressac's book, you would find it
relatively easy to locate the text, as it is in the section on SS
testimonies. Lacking that familiarity, you could have referred to
Faurisson's long review of Pressac's book, which appeared in two parts in
the Journal of Historical Review.
>However, nothing has been said to rebut Boeck's testimony about witnessing of a gassing. May we assume, then, that Mr. Raven grudgingly accepts that Boeck *did* witness a gassing, that the Nazi use of poison gas is now established, and we are now only involved in a discussion of numbers?
Let's say for the sake of argument that Boeck did witness one gassing. Does
this one gassing imply a Nazi plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in
homicidal gas chambers? If your answer is no, as it must be, then Keren has
not been responsive in providing this testimony. That was (and is) my
point.
Stein then attempts to buttress KerenUs use of the testimony (once again)
of Pery Broad (first paragraph below is a quote of my post):
>>"In the passage quoted by Keren, Broad speaks of a Zyklon B gassing, in a truck of some sort while it is parked next to a building we are told was itself a gas chamber. Even Pressac says 'Broad's testimony raises questions yet to be solved." (page 124) Pressac also says Broad's 'declaration has been 'slightly' reworked by the Poles.' (page 124) As Faurisson has point out, Pressac's use of quotes around the word 'slightly' indicate that the reworking was anything but slight."
>
>The writer does not reproduce Faurisson's argument so that you can evaluate it for yourself, nor does he tell you where to find it (though one could probably assume it's somewhere in the Faurisson book Raven cited earlier). Neither does he give us anything more than a sentence - no, only two snippets of a sentence - from Pressac. He expects you to accept his unsubstantiated assertion and summary once again. We have already exposed how untrustworthy these are. But we thank him for providing the page number this time.
Is it your contention, Mr. Stein, that the Nazi plan to exterminate Jews
was so haphazard that they might use a barn, or a truck, or a morgue, or a
crematory, or whatever came to hand as their Rgas chamberS? Are you then
saying that they built no gas chambers because they were so busy wandering
the countryside looking for novel ways to gas Jews? I think not. Then do
you still claim that these wild testimonies, which show no Nazi plan or
policy to exterminate the Jews, represent the best evidence of such a plan?
Finally, FaurissonUs statement that the Polish rework of BroadUs
declaration is anything but slight, is obvious, based on what Pressac
writes. It would be pointless to elaborate further.
Stein then moves to help support the statement of Dr. Czeslaw Glowakci, as
supplied by Keren. He starts off quoting my post:
>>>I can only make a couple of general comments. Glowakci speaks of gassings at Block 11, which is on the extreme opposite side of the camp from the crematory in Auschwitz (this crematory is where the "gas chamber" was supposed to have been).
>
>We had thought the purpose of the discussion was proving that the Nazis carried out gassings. What difference does it make where this particular gassing, one of many at many different places, occurred? This comment is wholly irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Once again, it makes no sense to say that the Nazis had a plan or policy of
exterminating Jews in homicidal gas chambers (and a secret one at that!),
and then to turn around and say, in essense, that after performing one of
their top-secret gassings, the Nazis had to haul the gassed corpses clear
across the Auschwitz main camp.
>>>Perhaps most important, though, he claims the victims were Soviet POW; is Keren saying that all Soviet soldiers were Jewish, or just these? Keren doesn't elaborate.
>
>>Dr. Keren doesn't elaborate because he thinks the point of the quotation should be clear: gas chambers existed, despite Mr. Raven's attempts to get us to doubt the fact. Nothing that has been said about this quotation in any way diminishes its credibility. The fact that this particular example was of gassing of non-Jews says nothing about whether Jews were gassed, only that the Nazis did, as hundreds of witnesses testified, use poison gas as a means of disposing of "enemies of the state" both non-Jewish and Jewish. The case for the existence and use of gas chambers is solidly supported, and *nothing* has been said which really challenges the credibility of that testimony - unless you believe that an unsubstantiated assertion is a legitimate challenge.
This is an admission that KerenUs RevidenceS is non-responsive to my
request for the best evidence of a Nazi plan or policy for the
extermination of the Jews in homicidal gas chambers.
Mr. Stein, I now ask you, which of these testimonies -- that you have gone
to great lengths to defend -- do you feel to be the best evidence I have
asked for? Or, is there another? Whichever it is, please present it so that
we may discuss it.
I apologize to anyone who has had to wade through this. In the future,
please letUs discuss one piece of evidence at a time.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14599 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!DialupNewsWatcher!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McCarthy repost
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 20:45:40 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 52
Message-ID:
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
To: "Jamie R. McCarthy"
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Subject: Re: Repost: A response to Greg Raven's request
Cc: k044477@kzoo.edu
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
At 12:01 6/8/94 -0400, Jamie R. McCarthy wrote:
AArticle 5122 of alt.revisionism:
>Xref: kzoo misc.test:40416 alt.revisionism:5122 Newsgroups: misc.test,alt.revisionism
>Path: kzoo!k044477
>From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy) Subject: Repost: A response to Greg Raven's request Message-ID: <1994Jun6.203436.1697@hobbes.kzoo.edu> Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 20:34:36 GMT
>In his efforts to whitewash Holocaust-denial, Mr. Raven has posted a glaring contradiction, perhaps without even noticing that he's done so. His third paragraph defines "Holocaust" as "the murder of six million Jews as a central act of state by the Nazis during the Second World War, many in gas chambers." (This definition will suffice, but we will concern ourselves with _all_ the victims of the Nazi mass murderers - they took the lives of about five million non-Jews, as well.) And he writes, twice, "I do not deny the Holocaust happened."
>
>Then, in his fourth paragraph, he denies the Holocaust happened. He writes that "there is no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of exterminating the Jews." He writes that "there is no evidence that there were homicidal gas chambers for murder [sic] Jews." And he writes that "the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration."
>
>One wonders how he will reconcile these two opposing viewpoints.
>
>We suspect that he would like us to believe that he does not deny the Holocaust - rather, that he merely has an "open mind" on the subject, and is simply waiting to see sufficient evidence either way.
First, this definition of the Holocaust is not mine: it comes from the US
Holocaust Memorial Museum. I happen to think it is a terrible definition,
but to selectively redefine the term RHolocaustS to suit myself and then go
about making claims relative to my redefinition (as you do) is folly. I am
willing to accept the USHMMUs definition as a starting point.
I am perfectly willing to admit that Jews suffered tremendously under the
Nazi regime. I am willing to admit that many died as a result of the
treatment they received. I am willing to accept that it might be called a
holocaust by those inclined to label such things in such a way.
What I cannot accept, however, is unsubstantiated claims that the Nazis had
a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews, that they loaded Jews into gas
chambers to murder them, and that they wiped out 6 million Jews as part of
this plan/policy.
This still leaves a lot of suffering and death, however, so much that I do
not understand why it must be exaggerated as it has been for the last 50
years. To invent sufferings, and to exaggerate sufferings of those who
survived, seems to me to discount the misery and fate of those who suffered
most: those who are no longer alive. When you have people such as Filip
Mueller putting their names on plagarized fictions and presenting them as
fact, it cheapens and vulgarizes the plight of the true victims.
IUm surprised you donUt see this.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14600 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's "Muench"
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 20:46:23 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article <315pq6$d9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dsk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
presented the following in support of his position on the Holocaust story:
> Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
> [Trials of War Criminals, Vol. VIII, p. 313-321]
It is not surprising that Keren posts this piece. What is surprising is
that his fellow exterminationists allow him to get away with it.
Referring to the Trials of the War Criminals (also known as the blue
series), we find there is no such testimony on the pages indicated in
volume 8. In fact, no such person is mentioned at all on these pages.
Furthermore, referring to volume 24, which contains the document and name
index, we discover that the only Muench in the blue series is a Colonel
Muench, who is mentioned as having been killed in action (volume 22, page
92).
Checking to see if a typo changed Keren's roman numeral 8 to a roman
numeral 7 or roman numeral 13, we find nothing on the pages indicated.
Given the above, before responding to the body of this post I will await 1)
a truthful statement from Keren as to the source of his original posting on
this matter, and 2) a statement from Keren that he considers this the best
evidence of a Nazi plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas chambers.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14601 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel 1/2
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 20:46:59 -0800
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To: "Michael P. Stein"
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Subject: Re: A View into Hell: Suchomel Tells of His Days in Treblinka
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
At 20:24 6/8/94 -0400, Michael P. Stein wrote:
Since you say there was no credible eyewitness testimony, I thought you
might like to see this posting and explain to us what is not credible about
this account from a former SS man at Treblinka.
>In article <2sl4ll$6gt@cat.cis.brown.edu> Danny Keren writes:
It is always interesting to see the stories of those who were at the camps;
their testimony is, invariably, very different from the accounts given by
our "revisionist scholars", who were never at the camps during the time
they operated.
>>This is a short excerpt from the eyewitness account of Franz Suchomel, an SS officer who served in the death camp Treblinka. It is taken from the movie "Holocaust". This is a translation; if anyone who saw the movie detects an error, please inform me. "L" stands for Lantzman, "S" for Suchomel.
>>-Danny Keren.
> (text deleted)
Gladly.
First, you are wrong in making the blanket statement that I say there is no
credible eyewitness testimony.
Second, Keren is wrong in classifying Treblinka as a death camp: it was a
transfer camp.
Third, Keren is wrong in claiming this excerpt comes from the movie
"Holocaust:" it comes from "Shoah."
Fourth, Keren is wrong in claiming that the "L" stands for "Lantzman:" it
stands for Lanzmann.
Fifth, Keren is wrong to direct readers to the movie version of this
passage: the book version contains all this and more, and is much more
accessible.
Sixth, Keren is deceptive not to point out the differences between
Suchomel's statements here and his statements to Gitta Sereny.
Be that as it may, for some truth about Treblinka, let us refer to the
article on this topic that appeared in the volume 12 number 2 Journal of
Historical Review, written by Mark Weber and Andrew Allen.
Treblinka
Wartime Aerial Photos of Treblinka Cast New Doubt on RDeath CampS Claims
MARK WEBER and ANDREW ALLEN
Treblinka is widely regarded as the second most important German wartime
extermination center. Only Auschwitz-Birkenau is supposed to have claimed
more lives.
Treblinka became the focus of worldwide attention in 1987-1988 during the
14-month trial in Jerusalem of John (Ivan) Demjanjuk, a Ukrainian-born
American factory worker. As TreblinkaUs RIvan the Terrible,S Demjanjuk
supposedly operated the machinery used to gas hundreds of thousands of Jews
there. Citing testimony by Jewish survivors, the Israeli court that
condemned him to death in April 1988 declared that more than 850,000 Jews
were killed at Treblinka between July 1942 and August 1943.
After the death sentence was handed down, DemjanjukUs family was able to
discover previously suppressed evidence --much of it from Soviet Russian
archives--indicating that the real RIvan the TerribleS was another
Ukrainian named Ivan Marchenko (or Marczenko). This new evidence
discredited the courtroom testimony of five Jewish camp survivors, each of
whom had RpositivelyS identified Demjanjuk as the sadistic mass murderer of
Treblinka.1
As historians know, and as common sense would suggest, such decades-old
testimony is far less trustworthy than contemporary records or forensic
evidence.2
And yet, TreblinkaUs reputation as a mass extermination center is based
almost entirely on precisely such subjective and unprovable testimony by
former prisoners--evidence that has proven to be notoriously unreliable in
several major trials of alleged RNazi war criminals.S3
There is no documentary evidence that Treblinka was an extermination
center. In fact, contemporary records suggest that the camp had a very
different function.
Aerial reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 of the Treblinka Rdeath
campS site--and forgotten for almost 45 years in the National Archives in
Washington, DC--cast serious doubts on the widely accepted story that it
was a mass extermination center.
Discovered in 1989, and published here for the first time in the United
States, these German reconnaissance photos corroborate other evidence
indicating that Treblinka was actually a transit camp.4
These photographs indicate that the remarkably small camp was not isolated,
or even particularly well guarded. (They clearly show that fields where
Polish farmers planted and cultivated crops were directly adjacent to the
camp perimeter.)
Moreover, the campUs burial area quite obviously appears too small to
contain the hundreds of thousands of bodies supposedly buried there.
(Casting doubt on the widely accepted story of hundreds of thousands of
Treblinka victims, these photos suggest instead that only those deportees
who died during the sometimes protracted rail journey to the camp were
buried there.)
RSteam ChambersS
The generally accepted story today is that hundreds of thousands of Jews
were killed at Treblinka in gas chambers with poisonous exhaust from
engines. But the RoriginalS Treblinka extermination story was that Jews
were steamed to death there in Rsteam chambers.S
According to an ReyewitnessS account received in November 1942 in London
from the Warsaw ghetto underground organization, Jews were exterminated in
Rdeath roomsS at Treblinka with Rsteam coming out of the numerous holes in
the pipes.S5 In August 1943, the New York Times reported that two million
Jews had already been killed at Treblinka by steaming them to death.6
The Treblinka steam story is also given in detail in The Black Book of
Polish Jewry, a work published in New York in 1943 and RsponsoredS by
Albert Einstein, Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt, Congressman Sol Bloom, New York
Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, and other personalities.7 Another book, Lest We
Forget, published in New York in 1943 by the World Jewish Congress,
describes in detail how Jews were steamed to death, and provides a diagram
showing the location of the purported Rboiler roomS that produced the Rlive
steam.S8
According to a 1944 ReyewitnessS account compiled by the OSS, the principle
US intelligence agency, Jews at Treblinka Rwere in general killed by steam
and not by gas as had been at first suspected.S9
At the main Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946, two conflicting stories were
given: steaming and gassing. Former Treblinka prisoner Samuel Rajzman
testified that Jews were killed there in gas chambers.10 (To confuse
matters still more, a few months earlier Rajzman claimed that during the
time he was in Treblinka, Jews were Rsuffocated to deathS there with a
machine that pumped air out of death chambers.)11
American prosecutors at the main Nuremberg trial supported the steam story.
As proof, a Polish government report dated December 5, 1945, was submitted
as prosecution exhibit USA-293. It charged that Jews were killed at the
camp Rby suffocating them in steam-filled chambers.S This report, which
says nothing about poison gas killings, was published in the official
Nuremberg trial record as document PS-3311.12 An American prosecutor quoted
from this report during his address to the Tribunal on December 14, 1945.13
Although no reputable historian now supports the RsteamS story, and little
has been heard of it during the last several decades, it was revived in a
widely-circulated booklet published in 1979 and 1985 by the influential
Anti-Defamation League of BUnai BUrith.14
There may have been a factual basis for the Rsteam chamberS stories. It is
quite possible that there was indeed some kind of steaming operation at
Treblinka--but one designed to kill disease-carrying lice, not people. Such
disinfection steaming was commonly used in German camps for Allied
prisoners of war.15
Shortly after the war, the World Jewish Congress published The Black Book,
a 559-page volume of real and imagined wartime atrocities against Jews. At
Treblinka alone, the book alleges, three million persons were killed. Three
diabolical techniques, including poison gas and steam, were supposedly used
there to kill some 10,000 Jews daily. But Rthe most widespreadS method
Rconsisted of pumping all the air out from the chambers with large special
pumps.S16 A former inmate testified shortly after the war that TreblinkaUs
victims were Rpoisoned by the different gasses or asphyxiated when the
chamber was turned into a vacuum and all the air sucked out.S17
In the Nuremberg trial of Oswald Pohl, U.S. Judge Michael A. Musmanno
declared that Rdeath was inflicted here [at Treblinka] by gas and steam, as
well as by electric current.S Citing Nuremberg document PS-3311, Musmanno
declared: RAfter being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically
closed and steam was let in.S18
Adolf Eichmann, the wartime head of the SS Jewish affairs section, said in
1961 during pre-trial interrogation in Israel that during the war he Rwas
toldS that Jews were gassed at Treblinka Rwith potassium cyanide.S19
One of the strangest Treblinka extermination stories, which appeared in
September 1942 in a Polish underground periodical, claimed that Jews were
killed there with a Rdelayed actionS gas:20
They enter it [the gas chamber] in groups of 300-500 people. Each group is
immediately closed hermetically inside, and gassed. The gas does not affect
them immediately, because the Jews still have to continue on to the pits
that are a few dozen meters away, and whose depth is 30 meters. There they
fall unconscious, and a digger covers them with a thin layer of earth. Then
another group arrives.
According to the testimony of yet another Reyewitness,S a Jew named Oskar
Berger who escaped from the camp, many Jews were systematically put to
death at Treblinka by shooting them with rifle and machine-gun fire.21
Diesel Gassing
In recent years, the most widely-circulated story has been that Jews were
gassed at Treblinka with carbon monoxide from the exhaust of a diesel
engine.22
However, as American engineer Friedrich Berg has established, this story is
improbable for technical reasons.23 In spite of the obnoxious odor of
diesel exhaust, diesel engines produce much smaller quantities of toxic
carbon monoxide than ordinary gasoline motors.24 It would thus be difficult
efficiently to gas large numbers of people using diesel exhaust. A normal
gasoline engine would be much more logical.25
It is important to keep in mind that the RevidenceS now usually cited for
diesel gassing at Treblinka is no more credible than the evidence that was
once presented for steaming and suffocating. Apparently the steaming and
suffocating stories have been dropped for the sake of credible consistency.
Solid evidence for gassings at Treblinka has proven to be very elusive. For
example, it turned out that none of the witnesses in the 1951 West German
RTreblinkaS court case ever actually saw anyone being gassed. RThe type of
gas used to kill the people there [Treblinka] cannot be determined with
certainty because none of the witnesses was able to witness this
procedure,S the judges declared in their verdict.26
At least some former Treblinka prisoners testified in postwar West German
trials that they not only never saw a gas chamber, but did not even hear
about gassings from others.27
Holocaust historians today are not able to agree about the number of
homicidal Rgas chambersS at Treblinka. Raul Hilberg maintains that there
were three at first, but because they were allegedly not adequate for the
job, more were built later on. There were eventually six or perhaps ten
chambers, he reports.28 Others have reported the existence of 13 gas
chambers at Treblinka.29
BombaUs Testimony
One of the most memorable testimonies about Treblinka presented in Shoah,
the nine-and-a-half-hour Holocaust film by French Jewish film maker Claude
Lanzmann, is that of Abraham Bomba. He told how he and other Jewish barbers
cut the hair of the naked Jews who were about to be gassed. They worked
inside RtheS gas chamber (he always spoke of one chamber), which was
Raround four by four metersS (about 12 feet by 12 feet). Bomba also
reported that R140 or 150 women,S with children, as well as 16 or 17
barbers, were inside this small room. In addition, there were benches where
the women sat while their hair was cut, as well as two or more German
guards.
The barbers had to leave the chamber for five minutes while the victims
were gassed, Bomba said, and it took just one minute to clear out the 140
or so corpses, and clean the floor and walls, before everything was ready
for the next batch of victims.30
BombaUs moving testimony, which conservative writer George Will called the
Rmost stunning in this shattering film,S is simply not credible.
Treblinka Labor Camp
About one mile (1.5 km) from the Rextermination camp,S which was known as
RTreblinka II,S was a penal labor camp for Poles and Jews known as
RTreblinka I.S It was not at all secret. The 1941 directive announcing the
establishment of the RTreblinka Labor CampS was published in both Polish
and German in widely distributed official journals.31 Poles and Jews worked
in a large sand and gravel quarry at the Treblinka labor camp.32
As wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs clearly show, the Treblinka
T-I labor camp was located at the end of the rail spur on which the
Treblinka T-II RexterminationS (transit) camp was also located. This fact
strengthens the thesis that the T-II camp was not particularly secret,
since penal labor prisoners being taken by train to and from the publicly
known T-I camp passed directly by the supposedly top secret T-II
RexterminationS camp.33
Documentary Evidence
Documents found after the war confirm that large numbers of Jews were
deported to Treblinka in 1942 and 1943. German railway records report the
transfer of trainloads of RsettlersS (RUmsiedlerS) and RworkersS to
Treblinka from various places in Poland and from other countries.34
In July 1942, a senior German railway official reported to the chief of
HimmlerUs personal staff that 5,000 Jews were being transported daily to
Treblinka.35 An August 3, 1942, German ROstbahnS railway directive
similarly reported that special trains would be carrying RresettlersS from
Warsaw to Treblinka daily, until further notice.36
Interestingly, it was not until September 1, 1942, that the Treblinka train
station was closed to passenger rail travel by the general public (Rto
permit a smooth handling of the special resettlement trainsS), which
suggests that German officials were not particularly concerned with keeping
the deportations or the station secret.37
Other records mention trains to Treblinka in March 1943 from Vienna,
Bulgaria and Greece.38 From Vienna and Luxembourg, Jews reportedly arrived
at the camp in passenger train coaches, and the deportees were given food
and medical care during their journey.39 In at least one case, a train with
sleeping cars and a dining car arrived at Treblinka.40
German railway records have been cited as evidence that hundreds of
thousands of Jews were exterminated at Treblinka.41 While there is little
doubt that these documents are genuine, and that they confirm transports of
Jews to Treblinka, they are not proof of an extermination program.42
Transit Camp
If Treblinka was not an extermination center, what was it? As already
mentioned, the balance of evidence indicates that Treblinka II--along with
Belzec and Sobibor--was a transit camp, where Jewish deportees were
stripped of their property and valuables before being transferred eastwards
into German-occupied Soviet territories.43
The generally-accepted story is that Treblinka II was a RpureS
extermination center, from which no Jew was permitted to leave alive.44
However, credible reports of deportations of Jews from Treblinka refute the
allegation that all Jews sent there were destined for extermination, and
indicate instead that the camp functioned as a transit center.
In the aftermath of the April 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising, for example,
Jews were transported from Warsaw to Treblinka II. As some of the deportees
later confirmed, after a RselectionS in the camp, trainloads of hundreds of
Jews were taken from Treblinka to Lublin (Majdanek), and possibly other
camps.45 Several thousand Jews (at least) were transferred by German
authorities from Treblinka to other camps, a postwar German court
determined.46
Letters and postcards that arrived in the Warsaw ghetto from Jews who, by
all accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was a
transit center from where Jews were resettled in the occupied Soviet
territories. These messages, which arrived from settlements and camps in
Belarus (Byelorussia), Ukraine, and even Russia proper (near Smolensk),
were written by Jews who had been deported in 1942. Some letters and cards
had been sent by mail and some had arrived through the underground. Many
mentioned that the senders were working hard, but confirmed that they (and
often their children) were being fed.47
Completely contrary to its supposed character as a top secret extermination
center, Treblinka was neither secret nor even closely guarded, as both
former inmates and officials have confirmed. RSecrecy? Good heavens, there
was no secrecy about Treblinka,S Jewish prisoner Richard Glazer later
testified. RAll the Poles between there and Warsaw must have known about
it, and lived off the proceeds. All the peasants came to barter, the Warsaw
whores did business with the Ukrainians--it was a circus for all of them.S
Polish farmers worked the fields that directly adjoined the camp. RAnd many
others,S said Jewish survivor Berek Rojzman, Rcame to the fence to barter,
mostly with the Ukrainians, but with us too.S48
Even regular German concentration camps such as Dachau and Buchenwald were
much more closely guarded than Treblinka. As already mentioned, aerial
reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 confirm that the area around
Treblinka was not cleared. The photos show that one perimeter of the camp
passed through a wooded area, and that cultivated fields where Polish
farmers worked were directly adjacent to the camp perimeter.49
How Many Victims ?
Shortly after the end of the war, the World Jewish Congress and at least
one former Treblinka prisoner alleged that more than three million Jews had
been exterminated there.50 More recent estimates of the number of people
allegedly killed at Treblinka range from between 700,000 (Leon Poliakov and
Uwe Adam), 750,000 (Raul Hilberg and Encyclopaedia Judaica), 870,000
(Yitzhak Arad), to more than 900,000 (Wolfgang Scheffler and Washington
Post).51
There is no documentary or physical evidence for any of these figures,
which are simply conjectural estimates.
Layout and Size
Diagrams published in recent years that show Treblinka as a neatly
organized, rectangular-shaped camp are not accurate.52 As already
mentioned, though, wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs confirm that
the Treblinka II camp was actually unsymmetrically four-sided and
irregularly shaped.53
One of the most remarkable features of the Treblinka Rdeath campS is its
small size. The entire Treblinka II camp area was only 32 or 33 acres (13
hectares), or about onetwentieth of a square mile.54 Even smaller was the
alleged RexterminationS area of the camp, which was 200 by 250 meters in
size (or five hectares) according to purportedly authoritative sources.55
PolandUs RCentral CommissionS announced shortly after the war that the
burial or RditchesS area where the bodies of TreblinkaUs victims were
buried (before they were supposedly later dug up for burning) was about two
hectares or five acres (or some 20,235 square meters).56 And according to a
diagram in a book about Treblinka by Jewish Holocaust historian Alexander
Donat, the campUs RditchesS area was not more than 80 or 100 meters in
length and about 50 meters wide--that is, a maximum of 5,000 square meters
or half a hectare.57
By comparison, the mass graves area in the Katyn forest (near Smolensk),
which held the bodies of some 4,500 Polish officers who had been killed by
Soviet secret police and buried there in 1940, measured about 500 square
meters.58
In short, it is very difficult to accept that anything like 700,000 or
800,000 bodies could have been buried in the minuscule area allegedly set
aside at Treblinka for this purpose.
Cremation Inconsistencies
Between April and July 1943, the corpses of TreblinkaUs hundreds of
thousands of victims were allegedly dug up from the burial pits and burned
with Rdry wood and branchesS on grids made of rails in batches of 2,000 or
2,500. The residual Rash and bits of boneS were dumped back into the burial
pits, and covered with a layer of sand and dirt two meters deep. This was
done, it is said, in order to eliminate the physical evidence of mass
extermination.59
Although enormous amounts of fuel would have been needed to cremate the
hundreds of thousands of alleged corpses, there is no documentary record or
witness recollection of the great quantities of firewood that would have
been required. According to Polish-Jewish historian Rachel Auerbach, fuel
to burn bodies was not needed at Treblinka because Rthe bodies of woman,S
which had more fat, Rwere used to kindle, or more accurately put, to build
the fires among the piles of corpses.S Even more incredible, Rblood, too,
was found to be first-class combustion material,S she wrote.60
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14602 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel 2/2
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 20:47:39 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 463
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NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
(continued from previous message)
Treblinka, by Mark Weber and Andrew Allen
Journal of Historical Review, volume 12 number 2
Missing Remains
A wartime Warsaw ghetto internee, Dr. Adolf Berman, testified in the 1961
Eichmann trial that he visited the Treblinka camp site shortly after the
Soviet occupation of Poland. He told the Jerusalem court that he saw Ran
area of several square kilometers covered with bones and skulls, and nearby
tens upon tens of thousands of shoes, many of them childrenUs shoes.S61
BermanUs testimony, which was considered one of the most emotionally moving
of the Eichmann trial, is completely inconsistent with known facts. For one
thing, the entire Treblinka camp was much smaller than one square kilometer
in size, and no other witness has confirmed the presence of Rtens of
thousandsS of shoes.
Jewish historian Rachel Auerbach, a member of an official Polish commission
that inspected the camp site in November 1945--that is, a few months after
the end of the war--reported finding large human bones, Rrotted masses of
corpses,S Rpieces of half-rotted corpses,S and Rfully dressedS corpses, at
the Treblinka camp site.62
In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been located, the
commissionUs team of 30 excavation workers reportedly found Rhuman remains,
partially in the process of decay,S and an unspecified amount of ash.
Untouched sandy soil was reached at 7.5 meters, at which point the digging
was halted. An accompanying photograph of an excavated pit reveals some
large bones.63
PolandUs RCentral Commission for Investigation of German CrimesS reported
that Rlarge quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous
human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues,S were found in
the five acre (two hectare) burial area during an examination of the site
shortly after the end of the war.64
The presence of uncremated human remains is not consistent with the
often-repeated allegation that all such remains were thoroughly destroyed.
Significantly, none of the Polish reports specifies the quantity of human
remains, the numbers of corpses, or the amount of ash found at the camp
site, which suggests that evidence of hundreds of thousands of victims was
not found.65
In spite of its often inconsistent, contradictory and implausible
character, testimony indicating that many Jews lost their lives at
Treblinka cannot easily be dismissed. Many Jewish prisoners doubtless
perished during their rail journey to the camp site, and were almost
certainly buried there. Furthermore, it is plausible and even likely that
hundreds and perhaps thousands of Jews who were too weak or ill to continue
the eastbound journey from the camp were killed there by officials acting
on their own authority.
All the same, there is no hard or compelling evidence that Treblinka was a
mass extermination center where hundreds of thousands of Jews were
systematically put to death. To the contrary, credible reports of transfers
of Jews from Treblinka eastwards to the occupied Soviet territories, the
relative lack of secrecy and security in the camp, and the small size of
the area where the bodies were supposedly buried, all suggest instead that
this was a transit center.
(Captions)
This diagram of the Treblinka II camp was used in the RTreblinka TrialS in
Duesseldorf, where it was supposedly Raccepted by all of the defendants and
witnesses.S In this diagram, not only is the general shape of the camp
inaccurate, but no scale is provided, thus giving a misleading impression
that the camp was much larger than it actually was. The alleged
extermination Rgas chambersS are marked 32 and 33. The supposed mass burial
sites, which are marked 34, are not large enough to have held the hundreds
of thousands of bodies allegedly buried there. [From: Eugen Kogon, et al.,
Nationalsozialistische Massent_tungen durch Giftgas (Frankfurt: 1986), p.
342.]
Inaccurately portraying a rectangular-shaped camp, this diagram of
Treblinka appears in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust. The alleged
extermination Rgas chambersS are marked 32 and 33. The supposed mass burial
areas are marked 34. [From: Israel Gutman, editor, Encyclopedia of the
Holocaust (New York: Macmillan, 1990), Volume 4, p. 1485.]
The diagram on the facing page of the Treblinka II camp in 1942-1943 is
based on wartime aerial photographs, published sources, and postwar on-site
inspection. (Copyright 1991 by Janusz Patek. Reproduced by permission.)
The site of Treblinka II (Rdeath campS) is at the center of this aerial
reconnaissance photo (reportedly taken in September 1944). Cultivated
fields of Polish farmers can be seen directly adjacent to the T II camp,
suggesting that it was not carefully guarded or closed off. A small part of
the Malkinia-Siedlce main road is visible at the upper right. At the
bottom, the Treblinka I labor camp site can be clearly seen, just below the
quarry area.
Trees and other vegetation seen in this aerial photo of Treblinka II (Sept.
1944) show that the camp site was not carefully closed off from the
surrounding area.
This reconnaissance photo of Treblinka II (reportedly taken in October
1944), clearly shows that part of the outer perimeter of the camp (above)
passes through part of a forest of trees, and that the area around the camp
was not cleared to insure a high level of security.
Notes
1. F. Dannen, RHow Terrible is Ivan?,S Vanity Fair (New York), June 1992,
pp. 132 ff.; RNew Evidence: Demjanjuk a Nazi Guard, Probably Not TIvanU,S
Los Angeles Times, January 16, 1992.; C. Haberman, RSoviet Files Are
Presented . . . ,S The New York Times, June 2, 1992, p. A6.
2. On the unreliability of such testimony, see John CobdenUs review of
Witness for the Defense (by E. Loftus and K. Ketcham) in The Journal of
Historical Review, Summer 1991, pp. 238-249.; Samuel Gringauz, a Jewish
historian who was himself interned in the Kaunas ghetto during the war,
wrote: RMost of the memoirs and reports [of Holocaust survivors] are full
of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism,
unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies.S (Jewish Social
Studies, New York, January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65.).
3. On the unreliability of such ReyewitnessS testimony in the
illustrative case of Frank Walus, who was falsely accused of murdering Jews
as a Gestapo officer in Poland, see, for example, RThe Nazi Who Never Was,S
The Washington Post, May 10, 1981, pp. B5, B8.
4. These aerial reconnaissance photos are on file in the National
Archives (Washington, DC), Cartographic Division (Record Group 373).
Several of these reconnaissance photos were published in Germany in 1990
by Udo Walendy in the booklet RDer Fall Treblinka,S Historische Tatsachen,
Nr. 44, 1990. (Postfach 1643, D-4973 Vlotho, Germany). See especially pages
13, 31, 34, 35, 38. In this booklet, Walendy cites specific archival source
references from the US National Archives for these photographs.
Unfortunately, these specific references are not always quite accurate. The
specific source references cited by Walendy are:
GX 12225 (or 122225?), Exp. 257 (and 258, 259?). (November or May 1944)
GX 180 D F 934/44 SK , Exp. 246 (May 18, 1944)
GX 12299 B A -2249, Exp. 014 (July 10, 1944)
GX 72 F 933/44 SK, Exp. 139, 140 (May 13, 1944)
GX 1946 F 2926 /44 SK, Exp. 062 (Sept. 18, 1944)
GX 937 F 13 A 6099, Exp. 74
GX 12250 F 2795 SK, Exp. 045 (Sept. 2, 1944)
GX 12290 F 3086 SK r 2600, Exp. 68 (Oct. 16, 1944)
GX 1946 / 44 SD, Exp. 076.
GX 12373, Exp. 11 (Sept. 2, 1944)
The most important of these Treblinka aerial photographs were made public
for the first time in the United States in January 1991 at a meeting in
Palo Alto, California. (IHR Newsletter, Feb. 1991, p. 3.).
We gratefully acknowledge the assistance of the Polish Historical Society
(Stamford, Connecticut) in compiling this essay.
Soviet wartime aerial reconnaissance photographs of the Treblinka camp site
almost certainly exist, and are very probably still held in Russian
archives. If so, they should be made public.
5. RLikwidacja zydowskiej Warszawy, Treblinka,S Biuleytn Zydowskiego
Instytutu Historycznego (Warsaw), Jan.-June 1951, pp. 93-100. Quoted in:
Carlo Mattogno, RThe Myth of the Extermination of the Jews,S The Journal of
Historical Review, Fall 1988, pp. 273-274, 295 (n. 16).
6. New York Times, Aug. 8, 1943, p. 11. Reprinted in: The Record: The
Holocaust in History (New York: ADL, 1985), p. 10. (The Record was also
distributed as an advertising supplement to the New York Post, April 17,
1978.)
7. Jacob Apenszlak, ed., The Black Book of Polish Jewry (New York: 1943),
pp. 142-143, 145.
8. World Jewish Congress, Lest We Forget (New York: 1943), pp. 4, 6-7.;
See also the reference to killings at Treblinka by Rhot steamS in HitlerUs
Ten-Year War On the Jews (p. 149), a book published in New York in 1943 by
the RInstitute of Jewish Affairs,S an agency of the American Jewish
Congress and the World Jewish Congress.
9. OSS document, April 13, 1944. National Archives (Washington, DC),
Military Branch, Record Group 226 (OSS records), No. 67231.
10. International Military Tribunal, Trial of the Major War Criminals
Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg: 1947-1949, (Rblue
seriesS), Vol. 8, p. 325. (Feb. 27, 1946)
11. Rajzman text in: Yuri Suhl, ed., They Fought Back (New York: 1967), p.
130.; This story also appears in: Isaiah Trunk, Jewish Responses (New York:
1982), p. 263.
12. IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International
Military Tribunal (IMT Rblue seriesS/ 1947-1949), vol. 32, pp. 153-158;
Also published in: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression (NC&A Rred seriesS/
1946-1948), Vol. 5, pp. 1104-1108. See also: NC&A (Rred seriesS), vol. 1,
pp. 1005-1006.
13. IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals (Rblue seriesS), vol. 3, p.
567-568.
14. The Record: The Holocaust in History. (The NYT report of Aug. 8,
1943, is reproduced here.)
15. Major S. G. Cowper, RA Note on a Disinfestation Plant Used in a Typhus
Hospital for Prisoners of War in Germany,S Journal of the Royal Army
Medical Corps, Sept. 1946, Vol. 87, No. 3, pp. 173-176.; RTyphus,S 1922
supplement to Encyclopaedia Britannica. Facsimile reprint in: Carlos
Porter, Made in Russia (1988), p. 364.; Globocnik reported in Jan. 1944
that textile goods seized in the course of RAktion ReinhardtS were
disinfected. See: 4024-PS. IMT Rblue series,S vol. 34, p. 84.
Jacob Seewald, a Polish Jew, spent the war years working as a forester in a
German labor camp. When he came down with a severe illness, he was
transferred to a hospital, where he recovered. After the war he emigrated
to the United States. In a 1983 interview, he recalled that the camp
authorities Rtook us [Jewish workers] into a shower for the steam to kill
lice. There we got no clothes, just a bundle with our names on them. Naked.
Then they turn on the water for a second--scalding water.S (John C.
Bromely, RStories from the Darkness,S The Denver Post Magazine, Sunday,
June 12, 1983, p. 20.) Similar events at Treblinka may perhaps have
provided a basis for the campUs RsteamS legend.
16. Jewish Black Book Comm., The Black Book (1946), pp. 407-408.
17. Isaiah Trunk, Jewish Responses (New York: 1982), p. 263.
18. Trials of the War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals
(NMT Rgreen seriesS/ Washington, DC: 1949-1953), vol. 5, pp. 1133-1134.
19. Jochen von Lang, ed., Eichmann Interrogated (New York: 1983), p. 84.;
See also: R. Aschenauer, ed., Ich, Adolf Eichmann (1980), pp. 179, 183.
20. RInformation Bulletin,S Sept. 8, 1942, published by the command of the
Polish underground RArmia Krajowa.S Quoted in: Yitzhak Arad, Belzec,
Sobibor, Treblinka (Bloomington: 1987), pp. 353 f.
21. E. Kogon, Theory and Practice of Hell (New York: Berkley, pb., 1981),
pp. 183-185.
22. Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (New York: 1985),
p. 878.; RTreblinka,S Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971), vol. 15, p. 1368.;
Eugen Kogon, et al., Nationalsozialistische Massent_tungen (1986), p. 163;
Yitzhak Arad, RTreblinka,S in: I. Gutman, ed., Encyclopedia of the
Holocaust, pp. 1483, 1484.
23. F. Berg, RThe Diesel Gas Chambers,S The Journal of Historical Review,
Spring 1984, pp. 15-46.
24. R. Schmidt, A. Carey, and R. Kamo, RExhaust Characteristics of the
Automotive Diesel,S Society of Automotive Engineers Transactions (New
York), Vol. 75, Sec. 3, 1967, pp. 106, 107. (paper 660550).
25. Even more logical and efficient than a gasoline engine--in the view of
engineer Friedrich Berg--would have been the RHolzgasS generator, which
were in very widespread use in Europe during the war years. See: F. Berg,
RThe Diesel Gas Chambers,S The Journal of Historical Review, Spring 1984,
pp. 38-41.
26. Case against J. Hirtreiter, LG Frankfurt, 1951. Justiz und
NS-Verbrechen (Amsterdam: 1972), Band 8, p. 264 (270 a-4).
27. Hans Peter Rullmann, Der Fall Demjanjuk (Sonnenb_hl: 1987), p. 149.
Source cited: Adalbert R_ckerl, NS-Vernichtungslager (1977).; An
unsatisfactory explanation has been offered for this remarkable testimony:
these witnesses must have been inmates of the nearby Treblinka labor camp,
or for some other reason were never in the RexterminationS section of the
T-II camp.
28. R. Hilberg, Destruction (1985), p. 879.
29. Central Commission . . ., German Crimes in Poland (Warsaw: 1946-1947),
vol. 1, p. 97.; Yitzhak Arad, RTreblinka,S in: I. Gutman, ed., Encyclopedia
of the Holocaust, pp. 1483, 1485.
30. Shoah (Paris: Fayard, 1985), pp. 126-129. (I am thankful to Dr.
Faurisson for pointing this out.) See also: Bradley R. Smith, RShoah:
Abraham Bomba, the Barber,S The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1986,
pp. 244-253.
31. Directive of Nov. 15, 1941. Amtsblatt f_r den Distrikt Warschau, Dec.
16, 1941, p. 116. Facsimile reproduction in: S. Wojtczak, RKarny Oboz,S
Biuletyn Glownej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Polsce (Warsaw),
Vol. 26, 1975, pp. 155-156.; Also published in: Amtlicher Anzeiger, Dec. 2,
1941. Cited in: Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka (1987), p. 352.
Facsimile reproduction in: C. Pilichowski, No Time-Limit for These Crimes
(Warsaw: 1980), no page number.; An internal German document dated July 7,
1942, refers to the RTreblinka labor camp,S which means that it was
operating at the same time as the nearby Rextermination center.S Facsimile
is reprinted in: H. Eschwege, ed., Kennzeichen J (East Berlin: 1966), p.
245.
32. I. Gutman, ed., Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990), p. 1482.
33. Note particularly the aerial photograph dated Sept. 2, 1944, in: U.
Walendy, RDer Fall Treblinka,S Historische Tatsachen, Nr. 44 (1990), p.
31.; Even today, a visitor to the site is struck by the large size of the
quarry pit there. Hundreds (and perhaps thousands) of rail cars must have
gone to and from the site (passing by the T-II Rextermination campS) to
carry away the sand and gravel excavated from the large pit.
34. Facsimile documents in: Biuletyn Glownej Komisji Badania Zbrodni
Hitlerowskich w Polsce (Warsaw), Vol. 26, 1975, pp. 171-182.; These records
also show that (presumably empty) trains were promptly returned to their
points of origin.; See also: Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European
Jews (1985), p. 488 (and notes).
35. Ganzenm_ller to Wolff, July 28, 1942. Document NO-2207. R. Hilberg,
Destruction (1985), p. 491.
36. Main rail office (Gedob) in Krakow, directive No. 548. Facsimile in:
Biuletyn Glownej Komisji . . . (Warsaw), Vol. 26, 1975, p. 171.
37. Main rail office (Gedob) in Krakow, directive of Aug. 27, 1942.
Facsimile in: Biuletyn Glownej . . . (Warsaw), Vol. 26, 1975, p. 182.; Also
quoted in: Y. Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka (1987), p. 96.
38. Biuletyn Glownej . . . (Warsaw), Vol. 26, 1975, pp. 178 f.; Y. Arad,
Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka (1987), p. 145.
39. Gerald Reitlinger, The Final Solution, (London: Sphere, pb., 1971), p.
150.
40. Martin Gilbert, Final Journey (New York: 1979), p. 119.
41. R. Hilberg, Destruction (1985), p. 488 (and notes).
42. For one thing, the surviving documents are not at all clear about the
numbers of deportees, and certainly do not confirm the deportation of
hundreds of thousands of Jews to the camp.
43. Dr. Arthur Butz has concluded that Treblinka served both as a labor
camp and as a transit center for Jews being deported eastwards: A. Butz,
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century (1983), p. 221.; See also: Steffen
Werner, Die Zweite Babylonische Gefangenschaft (1990), pp. 70-71, 171.
44. Y. Wiernik, in: A. Donat, ed., The Death Camp Treblinka (New York:
1979), p. 166.; Jewish Black Book Comm., The Black Book (1946), p. 399.
45. I. Trunk, Jewish Responses (1982), pp. 197-198, 261-262.; A. Donat in:
B. Chamberlin, M. Feldman, eds., The Liberation of the Nazi Concentration
Camps (Washington, DC: 1987), p. 171.; This point is also confirmed in US
Dept. of Justice (OSI) interviews with Treblinka survivors. Portions of
several such OSI interview reports are reproduced in facsimile in UFFA
Bulletin (Stamford, Conn.), Oct. 1990, p. 6.
46. Adalbert R_ckerl, ed., NS-Vernichtungslager im Spiegel deutscher
Strafprozesse (Munich: DTV, 1977), p. 198. This work by the main German
official responsible for prosecuting war crimes cases is based on records
of postwar German court cases.
47. Yisrael Gutman, The Jews of Warsaw, 1939-1943 (Bloomington, Ind.:
Indiana Univ., 1982), p. 219.; Lucy Dawidowicz, The War Against the Jews,
(New York: Bantam, pb., 1976), pp. 414, 451.; L. Dawidowicz, Holocaust
Reader (New York: 1976), pp. 356, 364.; See also: Abraham Lewin, A Cup of
Tears (New York: 1988), pp. 38-39. (Holocaust historians maintain that
because none of the RresettledS Jews from Warsaw survived Treblinka, these
letters and postcards therefore are either forgeries or were written under
duress.)
48. Gitta Sereny, Into That Darkness (London: A. Deutsch, 1974), p. 193.;
The Lanzman film Shoah also confirms that Polish farmers worked the fields
right next to Treblinka.
49. Aerial reconnaissance photos from the US National Archives. Published
in: U. Walendy, RDer Fall Treblinka,S HT Nr. 44 (1990), pp. 31, 34, 35, 38.
50. I. Trunk, Jewish Responses to Nazi Persecution (1982), p. 263.; Jewish
Black Book Comm., The Black Book, pp. 400, 407.
51. Leon Poliakov, Harvest of Hate (New York: 1979), p. 334.; Uwe Adam,
in: F. Furet, ed., Unanswered Questions, (New York: 1989) p. 146.; R.
Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (1985), p. 893.;
Encyclopaedia Judaica, vol. 15, p. 1371.; Lucy Dawidowicz, The War Against
the Jews (Bantam pb., 1976), p. 200.; Y. Arad in: I. Gutman, ed.,
Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1486.; A. R_ckerl, ed.,
NS-Vernichtungslager (DTV, 1977), p. 199 (n.).; Glen Frankel, RDemjanjuk
Proceeding Unites Israel,S Washington Post, Feb. 21, 1987, p. A 17.; K.
Feig, HitlerUs Death Camps (1981), p. 311.; Gitta Sereny, Into That
Darkness (1974), p. 250.
52. For example: I. Gutman, ed., Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, pp. 1482,
1485.; Gitta Sereny, Into That Darkness (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1974), p.
146.; Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945 (Warsaw: 1979), p.
526.; E. Kogon, et al., Nationalsozialistische Massent_tungen (1986), p.
342.;
53. U. Walendy, RDer Fall Treblinka,S HT Nr. 44 (Vlotho: 1990), pp. 31,
34, 35, 38.; This same layout is also shown in: Central Commission...,
German Crimes in Poland (Warsaw: 1946), Vol. 1, fold-out diagram between
pp. 96-97.
54. Central Commission . . ., German Crimes in Poland (1946), Vol. 1, p.
96.; Janusz Gumkowski, K. Lezczynski, Poland Under Nazi Occupation (Warsaw:
Polonia, 1961), p. 72.; RTreblinka,S Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971), vol. 15,
p. 1367.; One hectare equals 10,000 square meters. One square mile is 640
acres.
55. E. Kogon, et al., Nationalsozialistische Massent_tungen (1986), p.
162.; Y. Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, p. 41.; I. Gutman, ed.,
Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1483.; Note also the discussion of this
matter in: U. Walendy, RDer Fall Treblinka,S HT 44 (1990), passim.
56. Central Commission . . ., German Crimes in Poland (Warsaw: 1946-1947),
Vol. 1, p. 96.; This is equivalent to about 142 by 142 meters.
57. A. Donat, ed., The Death Camp Treblinka (1979), pp. 318-319.
58. Louis FitzGibbon, Katyn (IHR, 1980), p. 141.; According to one
informed historical researcher, the 1944 aerial reconnaissance photographs
indicate that the burial area of the Treblinka II camp was about one-fifth
smaller than the mass graves area in the Katyn forest. Also, contrary to
claims made during the Demjanjuk trial and elsewhere, the 1944 aerial
photos also suggest that the retreating Germans left the campUs burial area
intact.
59. Y. Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka (1987), pp. 174-177.; E. Kogon, et
al., Nationalsozialistische Massent_tungen durch Giftgas (1986), p. 190.;
On the other hand, the World Jewish Congress claimed in 1946 that the
bodies of TreblinkaUs victims were cremated immediately after gassing in
large crematory furnaces. See: Jewish Black Book Comm., The Black Book (New
York: 1946), pp. 410 f.; And according to one ReyewitnessS account, bodies
were burned while still in the large burial pits. This is physically all
but impossible. See: Abraham Krzepicki, in: A. Donat, ed., Death Camp
Treblinka, p. 92.
60. Rachel Auerbach, RIn the Fields of Treblinka,S in: A. Donat, ed.,
Death Camp Treblinka (1979), p. 38.; Similarly, former prisoner Wiernik
claimed that Rthe bodies of women were used for kindling the firesS at
Treblinka. J. Wiernik, in: A. Donat, ed., Death Camp Treblinka, p. 170.
61. Moshe Perlman, The Capture and Trial of Adolf Eichmann (New York:
Simon and Schuster, 1963), pp. 303-304.
62. R. Auerbach, RIn the Fields of Treblinka,S in: A. Donat, ed., Death
Camp Treblinka, pp. 19, 69, 71, 72.
63. Facsimile of report, Nov. 13, 1945, in: Biuletyn Glownej Komisji . .
. (Warsaw), Vol. 26, 1975, pp. 183-185. (Translation provided to the
author).; Note also photo of skulls and large bones on p. 151. This is
similar to the photo in: A. Donat, ed., Death Camp Treblinka, p. 266.
64. Central Commission . . ., German Crimes in Poland, Vol. 1, pp. 96-97.
65. After cremation, between five and about ten pounds of residual ash and
bone are left from each corpse. (Frederick Peterson, with Haynes and
Webster, Legal Medicine and Toxicology, vol. 2, pp. 877, 883. Facsimile in:
C. Porter, Made in Russia, pp. 346, 351.) If, let us say, 700,000 Jews were
killed at Treblinka, and each cremated corpse resulted in five pounds of
ash and residual bone, 1,750 tons of remains would have been left at the
camp site. Nothing like this quantity of remains has ever been found and
identified.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14603 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet
From: Brian Harmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 94 00:57:00 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 58
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <31a20m$2cl@access3.digex.net> <31apvf$rb0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com
X-To: Greg Raven
Greg Raven writes:
>In article <31apvf$rb0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
>wrote:
>
>> This is really like talking to a brick wall, but I'll try nontheless.
>>
>> 1) It is impossible to choose "the best piece of evidence" for the
>> Holocaust. For instance, how can one choose which of the eyewitness
>> testimonies for the gassings at the various camps is "best"?
>
>I would think that if truly there were good evidence, you would not be
>forced to cite testimonies, which are notoriously poor on this (and other)
>topics. How about some physical evidence? How about some contemporaneous
>evidence? Something tangible would be nice.
Testimonies are not _necessarily_ poor sources of info. If there are many,
anyd they agree in many crucial details, they constitue excellent evidence. To
be poor evidence, they must be inconsistent with one another.
Let's see your demonstration that eyewitness accounts were inconsistent
with each other in vital details. Why is it that none of the testimonies deny
zi?
You also ask for physical evidence. what about the camps themselves?
The evidence does supports mass extermination, despite Leuchter's attempts to
show otherwise. What about Nazi Documents? do they not constitute physical
evidence ofsome sort?
You guys have yet to show us even _one_ forged Nazi document.
You guys have uyet to descredit any EYewitness accounts that i've seen.
>This is true, as far as you go. However, you must be careful when
>constructing a circumstancial case such as this one, because with the same
>approach you use to "prove" the planned homicidal gassings of Jews, someone
>else could "prove" that aliens from other solar systems have visited Earth.
>After all, there are hundreds of testimonies, and even some photos. How can
>you support Holocaust gassing claims, but deny UFO claims (assuming you
>do)?
This is no circumstantial case. The very perpetrators of the crime
admitted to their actions (Ho"ss, Eichmann, Kremer, etc.). eleven million
civillians are gone becase of the holocaust, six million because they were jews.
Documents, testimonies, confessions, physical evidence exists from the very
early planniung stages to the actual exection of the Holocaust.
This was murder, plain and simple, and the Nazis did it, just as
Hitler had ordered them too.
Brian Harmon
------
Human memory is the glue that bonds the massive physical evidence
into a coherent and unified history.
Article 14604 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!sun!oucsace!dspiegel
From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz facts: Where to find them
Message-ID:
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
References: <1994Jul28.223120.5451@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 04:36:53 GMT
Lines: 98
Sorry to follow up my own post, but I took the monumental step of
going to my bookcase and opening my copy of _Night_.
In article dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) writes:
>In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>>
>>Interesting. The Germans told Auschwitz inmates that the Soviets were
>>coming, and offered them a chance to either leave with the Germans or stay
>>and wait for the Soviets. Few waited. In fact, Elie Wiesel and his father
>>opted for the Germans, as can be read in his book, "Night."
>
> Interesting. Instead of just asserting this fact, please provide a page
>number so I may consult my copy of Night.
No need. Greg, shall we read together? Then, we can re-examine your
paragraph above.
_Night_, by Elie Wiesel, Fourth Printing, December 1970 (Paperback)
pp. 92
--------------------------------------------------------
At four o'clock on the afternoon of the same day, as usual the bell
summoned all the heads of the blocks to go and report.
They came back shattered. They could only just open their lips enough to
say the word: evacuation. The camp was to be emptied, and we were to be sent
futher back. Where to? To somewhere right in the depths of Germany, to other
camps; there was no shortage of them.
"When?"
"Tomorrow Evening."
"Perhaps the Russians will arrive first."
"Perhaps."
We knew perfectly well that they would not.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Well, Greg, it seems that contrary to your assertion, the prisoners
were hoping the Russians would arrive before they had to be evacuated.
The text doesn't say "We feared the Russians...", it says "Perhaps...".
Now we'll see that the alternative wasn't Germans vs. Russians, as
our "scholar" implies, but Germans vs. death.
_Night_, by Elie Wiesel, Fourth Printing, December 1970 (Paperback)
pp. 92 (cont. from above)
--------------------------------------------------------
The camp had become a hive. People ran about, shouting at one another.
In all the blocks, preparation for the journey was going on. I had forgot-
ten about my bad foot. A doctor came into the room and announced:
"Tomorrow, immediately after nightfall, the camp will set out. Block
after block. Patients will stay in the infirmary. They will not be
evacuated."
This news made us think. Were the SS going to leave hundreds of
prisoners to strut about in the hospital blocks, waiting for their
liberators? Were they going to let the Jews hear the twelfth stroke
sound? Obviously not.
"All the invalids will be summarily killed", said the faceless
one [He was another prisoner - DS]. "And sent to the crematory in
a final batch."
"The camp is certain to be mined," said another. "The moment the
evacuation's over, it'll blow up."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Uh, Greg? Enough for you? So, why did you, at best, misrepresent
the context of the passage? Tell us, when did you read _Night_?
Who told you how to distort that passage? Since when do people
prefer their persecutors over their liberators?
Here's what you wrote:
>>Interesting. The Germans told Auschwitz inmates that the Soviets were
>>coming, and offered them a chance to either leave with the Germans or stay
>>and wait for the Soviets. Few waited. In fact, Elie Wiesel and his father
>>opted for the Germans, as can be read in his book, "Night."
It is true that those left behind by the evacuation were not
murdered, and that Elie Wiesel and his father opted for the Germans,
but you deliberately (what else could be the explanation?) asserted
out of context. It is clear that the perception was that anyone
who didn't choose to go would be murdered. You clearly distorted
the meaning of this passage in your assertion to try to make your point
that the Jewish prisoners preferred to stay with the Germans instead
of waiting for the Soviets.
In short, you are either a foolish parrot, or a deliberate liar.
>>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
>>Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
> [Inappropriate advertisements that were here deleted]
>
I can thus assume that your level of "scholarship" is the same
as the rest of the "scholars" at the IHR?
I'm just a Mathmetician/Computer Scientist. Why don't you give it
up? A real historian would eat your weak stuff and spit you out.
>
-DS
I speak for myself only.
No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else.
Please do not use my name in any subject headers.
>
Article 14605 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Finding Missing Persons
Date: 1 Aug 1994 23:08:39 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <31kdbn$jle@access1.digex.net>
References: <31h4nm$7id@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote [addressing Barry Shein]:
>You are making a couple of assumptions. First, you are assuming that "lost"
>people look for each other. This we know not to be the case. For example,
>when Mark Weber and David Cole were on the Montel Williams Show, "survivor"
>Ernst Hollander claimed his brother had been murdered by the Nazis. Well,
>it turns out his brother was still alive in Eastern Europe, and Ernst never
>bothered to look for him.
>
>You are also assuming that there are few stories of reunions. Without more
>research I cannot give you a number, but IHR founder David McCalden used to
>delight in collection stories about the reunion of family members
>"murdered" by the Nazis in the Holocaust.
>
>Third, you are assuming that it is easy to search for a "lost" family
>member even if you try. This is obviously not the case, as can be seen by
>the results of the (Arolsen?) center that conducts such searches. However,
>according to the figures I saw in the paper a few months back, they confirm
>more people alive than they do dead.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If this is the case, then it seems to me that even a person as stupid
as Fritz Berg says I am can see that the simplest way for the revisionists
to prove their position is to conduct the search for the missing people
the relatives have failed to look for. Six million were alleged to have
died. If Mr. Raven and his cronies can find even 10% of them, let alone
more than half, they will have an excellent claim for having disproved the
Holocaust - much better than the distorted citations and invalid logic Mr.
Raven has presented so far.
In fact, let's make this simpler. Let's just deal with Belzec. Only
one or two Jews who were sent to Belzec were known to have survived the
war. If Mr. Raven or Mr. Berg can find JUST FIVE MORE of the hundreds of
thousands of Jews who were sent to Belzec for delousing and then sent on
to other destinations, as Fritz Berg has claimed, then I will pay
attention to their claims with much more seriousness. I mean, if the
Arolson center finds more than half alive, then it shouldn't be too much
trouble to find just five out of 600,000 or so who were alleged to have
died but (according to the revisionists) were still very much alive after
the war. A lot of the 18-25 year olds should still be with us; even some
of the 30-year-olds.
How about it, Mr. Raven? Mr. Berg? Five Jews who passed through
Belzec. If your version of history is correct, you should be able to find
them. You've had years to look - you mean you never thought of doing this
before? How could such an obvious and easy method of smashing the
Holocaust Hoax have slipped past a supergenius like Fritz Berg when even
an idiot like me could see it? Obviously it's too simple, and I'm just
too stupid to see what's wrong with it. I'm sure Mr. Raven or Mr. Berg
will explain.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 14607 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 1994 00:52:28 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 48
Message-ID:
References: <315k1n$88k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net
In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
(Greg Raven) wrote:
> In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
> Shein) wrote:
>
> >
> > Perhaps Raven can clarify this demand he has made which apparently to
> > many of us seems idiotic. Maybe we all misunderstand him.
> >
> > He wants the single best piece of evidence of the Holocaust.
> >
> > I assume Mr Raven believes World War II occurred (?)
> >
> > So what is the single best piece of evidence that World War II
> > occurred?
> >
> > Just as an example of the kind of thing he is looking for.
>
> I would perhaps start off with declarations of war from both the Axis and
> Allied sides (presented one at a time, of course!), and then perhaps move
> to official documents about military campaigns, backed up with
> contempareneous photos of those campaigns, and perhaps finish with corpses
> that could be shown to have been the result of wartime action. Simple.
Let's take these in order.
1. A declaration of war is a political document regarding the intention of
the issuing state. It says nothing about whether the war ever occurred.
Besides, did either the Allies or the Axis ever use the phrase "World War
II" in their declarations of war? I don't think so. Next!
2. Please limit yourself to *one* document, Mr. Raven. Your citation to
"official documents" is a little vague. Which one "document" of which
"military campaign" is the *best* piece of evidence that World War II
occurred? If you produce any such document, we will address it at that
time. (As for photos...we all know how easy those are to fake.)
3. I defy you to produce one single corpse that can be shown to have died
as a result of "World War II."
Not so simple, is it?
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
Article 14615 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Joint response to Greg Raven
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Mon, 01 Aug 1994 20:44:41 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 06:48:48 GMT
Lines: 45
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Let's look at this. The US Holocaust Memorial Museum displays a portion
>Hoess' confession to visitors the moment they arrive on the top floor, is
>this not true? Even Stein seems to admit later that Hoess is not reliable,
>so why does his statement appear so prominently in the USHMM?
For the same sort of reason that there is (or was) a large diorama of
a neanderthal family in the Museum of Natural History. No doubt some
small details are not quite right, and certainly the exact year or
location is not indicated clearly.
But the person who put that there wasn't trying to use it to convince
a Creationist, they were providing information for someone who was
interested in getting a better feel for the subject.
And in the same vein I do not believe the Holocaust museum was
designed to change the mind of a Holocaust denier. Because, like the
Creationist, they will find fault in everything presented. It is faith
before knowledge.
Hoess' words are part of the record. That they are not the proof you
seek is irrelevant, really. They are part of the record. Shall we burn
every copy? Hide every copy?
It's not a great bit of evidence IF THAT'S ALL WE HAD. And that's
certainly how the denier addresses it, as if that is the only bit of
evidence and that it may not stand up well in a complete
vacuum. However, it is not the only evidence, in fact there is so much
evidence it is not even viewed by most as evidence at all. It is
merely confirmation, it confirms everything else we know.
The Holocaust Museum is not a proof the Holocaust occurred. To all but
a few kooks that is not even a question.
How exactly could you modify that diorama of the neanderthal family to
suit a Creationist anyhow? You really can't. So why bother? You are
free to doubt, but if you believe the world will kowtow to your doubt
then the issue is not freedom, it is sanity.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 14617 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's "Muench"
Date: 2 Aug 1994 07:09:12 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <31kreo$7ee@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism
Greg Raven wrote:
# dsk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
^^^
Just for the record, it's dzk.
# presented the following in support of his position on the Holocaust story:
#
## Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
## [Trials of War Criminals, Vol. VIII, p. 313-321]
# It is not surprising that Keren posts this piece. What is surprising is
# that his fellow exterminationists allow him to get away with it.
# Referring to the Trials of the War Criminals (also known as the blue
# series), we find there is no such testimony on the pages indicated in
# volume 8. In fact, no such person is mentioned at all on these pages.
Ah, what a clown this Raven is.
You got the wrong series, you "revisionist scholar" you. I am not
quoting from the "blue series", but from the series of volumes about
the later trials (such as the Farben Trial, the Doctor's Trial etc;
I hope Raven heard about these).
By the way, Dr. Muench also testified in the 1963-5 Auschwitz trial
in Frankfurt.
-Danny Keren.
Article 14618 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Suchomel 1/2
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Mon, 01 Aug 1994 20:46:59 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 07:30:39 GMT
Lines: 159
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>The generally accepted story today is that hundreds of thousands of Jews
>were killed at Treblinka in gas chambers with poisonous exhaust from
>engines. But the RoriginalS Treblinka extermination story was that Jews
>were steamed to death there in Rsteam chambers.S
>
>According to an ReyewitnessS account received in November 1942 in London
>from the Warsaw ghetto underground organization, Jews were exterminated in
>Rdeath roomsS at Treblinka with Rsteam coming out of the numerous holes in
>the pipes
And it's completely believable that this is what it looked like, where
did they observe this from? Not too many people inside the camp
escaped by November 1942.
You have nothing here except perhaps someone observing from a hillside
or some such making his best guess as to how the people being marched
into these chambers and then removed dead a short while later were
perhaps being killed.
Did the person reporting have Superman's X-Ray vision? Obviously no
one who went into the chambers had much opportunity to describe what
happened next. And the SS guards who put this together were probably
not members of this Warsaw underground organization.
Crap, you have nothing here.
>In August 1943, the New York Times reported that two million
>Jews had already been killed at Treblinka by steaming them to death.6
Yeah, well, and how did they claim to know this? They called Stangl
and interviewed him?
Crap, so what, the NY Times may have been wrong. Big deal.
But what comes through pretty clearly is someone saw a lot of killing
going on there, even if they had the exact numbers and method a bit
wrong. I think it's fair to say it would have been hard to get an
accurate count into the NY Times.
>The Treblinka steam story is also given in detail in The Black Book of
>Polish Jewry, a work published in New York in 1943 and RsponsoredS by
>Albert Einstein, Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt, Congressman Sol Bloom, New York
>Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, and other personalities.7
No doubt merely repeating the first source of this, so what?
So therefore there were no dead bodies?
Or therefore it took a while to figure out how this monstrous work was
being done?
>(To confuse
>matters still more, a few months earlier Rajzman claimed that during the
>time he was in Treblinka, Jews were Rsuffocated to deathS there with a
>machine that pumped air out of death chambers.)11
Well, once again, clearly he did not have a good look at this device
in action because if he did he'd be dead.
However, this does tend to confirm some questions that perhaps it was
not so much the CO in the diesel exhaust at Treblinka that killed but,
rather, suffocation was the major cause of death. That would be
consistent with this testimony giving that the witness is no doubt
only describing how he believed all those people became dead.
>There may have been a factual basis for the Rsteam chamberS stories. It is
>quite possible that there was indeed some kind of steaming operation at
>Treblinka--but one designed to kill disease-carrying lice, not people.
Oh, here we go again!
It's not the method of killing that's at issue here all of a sudden,
it's who or what was being killed that all these people are mistaken
about!
Here's an idea: Maybe the fellow on the hilltop who thought he saw
people being marched into the chambers and then later removed dead had
his binoculors backwards and, in fact, was watching the Nazis march
LICE into these chambers and later remove them dead! Yeah, that's the
ticket! His binoculors were backwards!
>In recent years, the most widely-circulated story has been that Jews were
>gassed at Treblinka with carbon monoxide from the exhaust of a diesel
>engine.22
Or, more accurately, they were crammed into a chamber and the exhaust
of diesel fed into that relatively air-tight chamber and somehow they
died. Whether or not it was the carbon monoxide is of course a
reasonable guess but certainly not the only possibility.
>However, as American engineer Friedrich Berg has established,
Ah! You mean the estimable Friedrich Berg who posts things here like:
>Maybe some other engineer out there in cyberland will have the patience
>to teach this Jewish trash something about the real world. I have lost
>my patience.
>
>FPBerg
and
>After reading Shein, can anyone really be surprised that the Germans
>would people like him in concentration camps during WW2. That is
>precisely where people like him belonged--that is the only thing his
>talmudic logic, his filthy sophistry, is ever able to prove.
>
>FPBERG
Yes, yes, *that* Mr Berg, a true scholar and seeker of the truth who
clearly has no axe to grind in his never-ending quest for wisdom...
>In spite of the obnoxious odor of
>diesel exhaust, diesel engines produce much smaller quantities of toxic
>carbon monoxide than ordinary gasoline motors.24 It would thus be difficult
>efficiently to gas large numbers of people using diesel exhaust. A normal
>gasoline engine would be much more logical.25
As we have offered Mr Berg, you and your friends should feel free to
put yourselves into a small, air-tight room and feed the exhaust from
a 600HP diesel into it for a while and report the results back to us.
>It is important to keep in mind that the RevidenceS now usually cited for
>diesel gassing at Treblinka is no more credible than the evidence that was
>once presented for steaming and suffocating. Apparently the steaming and
>suffocating stories have been dropped for the sake of credible consistency.
Apparently since 1943 some facts have become available.
I don't see the great distinction between this diesel method and an
eyewitness (from the outside) describing it as some form of
suffocation. But then again I do not possess the great mind of a
Holocaust Denier, perhaps.
>The type of
>gas used to kill the people there [Treblinka] cannot be determined with
>certainty because none of the witnesses was able to witness this
>procedure,S the judges declared in their verdict.26
Well, now *that's* a shock and a revelation.
You mean the Nazi guards didn't set up reviewing stands for prisoners
to carefully examine what was going on? I refer, of course, to
prisoners who weren't headed into the chambers.
etc etc etc.
So, where are the denier's eyewitnesses? Where is their evidence?
They don't have any, just this tired old rubbish.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 14621 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel 1/2
Date: 2 Aug 1994 03:18:23 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <31krvv$4ka@access1.digex.net>
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>At 20:24 6/8/94 -0400, Michael P. Stein wrote:
>Since you say there was no credible eyewitness testimony, I thought you
>might like to see this posting and explain to us what is not credible about
>this account from a former SS man at Treblinka.
>
>>In article <2sl4ll$6gt@cat.cis.brown.edu> Danny Keren writes:
>It is always interesting to see the stories of those who were at the camps;
>their testimony is, invariably, very different from the accounts given by
>our "revisionist scholars", who were never at the camps during the time
>they operated.
>
>>>This is a short excerpt from the eyewitness account of Franz Suchomel,
>>>an SS officer who served in the death camp Treblinka. It is taken from
>>>the movie "Holocaust".
>>>This is a translation; if anyone who saw the
>>>movie detects an error, please inform me.
>>>"L" stands for Lantzman, "S" for Suchomel.
>
>>>-Danny Keren.
>> (text deleted)
>Gladly.
>
>First, you are wrong in making the blanket statement that I say there is no
>credible eyewitness testimony.
>
>Second, Keren is wrong in classifying Treblinka as a death camp: it was a
>transfer camp.
>
>Third, Keren is wrong in claiming this excerpt comes from the movie
>"Holocaust:" it comes from "Shoah."
>
>Fourth, Keren is wrong in claiming that the "L" stands for "Lantzman:" it
>stands for Lanzmann.
>
>Fifth, Keren is wrong to direct readers to the movie version of this
>passage: the book version contains all this and more, and is much more
>accessible.
>
>Sixth, Keren is deceptive not to point out the differences between
>Suchomel's statements here and his statements to Gitta Sereny.
>
>Be that as it may, for some truth about Treblinka, let us refer to the
>article on this topic that appeared in the volume 12 number 2 Journal of
>Historical Review, written by Mark Weber and Andrew Allen.
[long article which says not one word about Suchomel deleted]
Surely, it shouldn't be necessary to overwhelm the reader with a long
off-point article which says not one word about Suchomel. Let's keep the
discussion manageable, shall we? Which of these is your BEST EVIDENCE
that Suchomel is insane or lying? The fact that Daniel Keren misspelled
the name of the filmmaker? Or is it perhaps the fact that Keren gave the
English translation of the Hebrew title of the film? Pick one and let's
discuss it.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 14622 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Raven's deliberate "Muench" misrepresentation..
References: <31kreo$7ee@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Aug03.032351.25412@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 94 03:23:51 GMT
In article <31kreo$7ee@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>Greg Raven wrote:
># presented the following in support of his position on the Holocaust story:
>#
>## Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
>## [Trials of War Criminals, Vol. VIII, p. 313-321]
># It is not surprising that Keren posts this piece. What is surprising is
># that his fellow exterminationists allow him to get away with it.
># Referring to the Trials of the War Criminals (also known as the blue
># series), we find there is no such testimony on the pages indicated in
># volume 8. In fact, no such person is mentioned at all on these pages.
>Ah, what a clown this Raven is.
>You got the wrong series, you "revisionist scholar" you. I am not
>quoting from the "blue series", but from the series of volumes about
>the later trials (such as the Farben Trial, the Doctor's Trial etc;
>I hope Raven heard about these).
It is indeed interesting to note that whenever these clowns make a
literary assertion, somehow it always seems that a little bit of
investigation demonstrates how dishonest they have been.
Can't they do _anything_ without this childish lying?
--
/^\__/^\ The Old Frog's Almanac
/ @ @ \ A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
( ) Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
\ ~~~~ /
Article 14624 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel 1/2
Date: 2 Aug 1994 09:51:55 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 215
Message-ID: <31l4vr$dkh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <31krvv$4ka@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
I will comment more on the long piece posted by Raven, but here are
a few initial observations.
1) Raven seems to admit huge numbers of Jews were deported to
the "Operation Reinhard" camps. He claims they were later
transferred elsewhere.
There are a few problems with this incredible assertion.
A) It is not supported by anyone - not the Poles who were watching
the camps, not the survivors, not the SS men who ran the camps. They
all tell a rather different story, as we all know. A story of mass
murder, mainly in gas chambers. Here are two typical testimonies:
Testimony of SS Oberscharfuehrer Erich Bauer
[Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard
Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 77]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Usually the undressing went smoothly. Subsequently, the Jews were
taken through the "tube" to Camp III - the real extermination
camp. The transfer through the "tube" proceeded as follows: one
SS man was in the lead and five or six Ukrainian auxiliaries were
at the back hastening the Jews along. The women were taken through a
barracks where their hair was cut off. In Camp III the Jews were
received by an SS man... As I already mentioned, the motor was then
switched on by Gotringer and one of the auxiliaries whose name I
don't remember. Then the gassed Jews were taken out.
Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Herman Lambert about Sobibor
[Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard
Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 123]
----------------------------------------------------------------
As I mentioned at the beginning, I was in the extermination camp
of the Jews for about two to three weeks. It was sometime in
autumn 1942, but I don't remember exactly when. At that time I
was assigned by Wirth to enlarge the gassing structure according
to the model of Treblinka. I went to Sobibor together with Lorenz
Hackenholt, who was at that time in Treblinka...
We reported to the camp commander, Reichsleitner. He gave us exact
directive for the construction of the gassing installations. The
camp was already in operation, and there was a gassing installation.
Probably the old installation was not big enough, and reconstruction
was necessary.
B) Raven has to explain where these Jews were "transferred" to. Are
there reports on them being taken anywhere? We have the documents
showing that huge numbers of Jews were sent to Treblinka. Where are
the reports proving that the same numbers left the camp?
There must be many documents and many eyewitnesses confirming
Raven's claim. Where are they?
C) The Poles - those who lived near the camps, and also the Polish
underground members who spied on them - all reported that no Jews
were coming out of the camps. That's how the truth about what was
happening in the camps leaked out. They saw huge numbers of people
coming in; they didn't see them come out. What they saw come out were
trains full of clothes. They saw the camp, and knew the barracks
in it could not hold even a small portion of the deportees. They
saw that no food was sent in to feed these people. They understood
these people were being killed, and reported it. They sure as hell
didn't see the deportees being "transferred" anywhere. Perhaps Raven
claims all these Poles are lying.
I'll post some of the reports written by the Poles soon - have to
type them in.
2) Raven correctly points out that some of the initial reports about
the methods of killing in the camps are erroneous. However:
A) Most of these reports are from the initial period of the camps'
operation. Moreover, most of them were made by people watching the
camps from a distance. This explains a lot.
Take, for instance, the "steam chambers" claims. These make a lot of
sense for someone spying on the camps, who was too far to see what
exactly went inside them. He probably saw the gas chambers being
opened, and the corpses being taken out. Now, when the gas chambers
were opened, a cloud of steam came out, because the exhaust of a very
powerful engine was pumped into them for considerable time. This
explains the initial misconception of "steam chambers". Other
theories, also inaccurate, were reported by other people who spied
on the camp.
Someone without technical background and experience can easily make
such mistakes. And some did. However, the very large majority of the
people in Treblinka reported gassing by engine exhaust. This is what
counts - the reports by the majority of the people who were there.
The bottom line regarding the reports of the Poles spying on the
camps remains clear as the sun, even though some got the
technical details wrong. Numerous people were sent to these camps
and none came out. That is that.
3) Raven mentions aerial photographs. He is welcomed to post them
as GIF of JPEG files. I happen to have a Ph.D in the area of
computer vision, and I know something about interpreting aerial
photographs.
4) Raven mentions Berg's work about the "difficulties" in gassing
with diesel engine exhaust. This was discussed here at length. Berg,
in addition to being an ugly racist and a deplorable Nazi, doesn't
know what he's talking about. Experiments have proved that animals
can be killed with the exhaust of tiny (6 BHP) diesel engines. 500
BHP engines will also kill people enclosed in a chamber. Berg's
claims are as silly as those in the "Leuchter Report".
5) There exist some incredibly detailed documents specifying the
property plundered from the deportees to the "Operation Reinhard"
camps. Here are some excerpts:
Letter from SS-Gruppenfuehrer Katzmann to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Kruger,
regarding the "solution of the Jewish problem in Galicia", and giving
a breakdown of property taken from the Jews, June 30, 1943
[Documents on the Holocaust - Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A. Margaliot,
NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 335-341]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Valuables were secured and handed over to the special staff
"Reinhard". Apart from furniture and large quantities of textile,
etc., the following were confiscated and delivered to special staff
"Reinhard":
As of June 30, 1943:
.
.
20.952 Kg - wedding rings - gold
22.740 Kg - pearls
11.730 Kg - gold teeth
.
.
Report by SS-Grupenfuehrer Globocnik listing items plundered
from the Jewish victims of "Operation Reinhard" and delivered to
various Nazi organizations. Attached is a detailed list, prepared
by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Wippern on February 27, 1943.
[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals -
Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. V, p. 704-709]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Valuation of Jewish belongings delivered up to 3 February 1943
1. cash - RM 15,931,722.01
Delivery SS Econ. Krakow - RM 31,500,000.00
SS WVHA Berlin - RM 5,581,411.50
----------------
RM 53,013,133.51
[At that time, 2.5 RM were equal to 1 US Dollar].
2. Foreign currency, notes
[Long list] total RM 1,452,904.65
.
.
.
5. Other Valuables
.
.
2,894 gold gentlemen's pocket watches
.
.
7,313 gold ladies' wrist watches
.
.
13,455 gentlemen's pocket watches
.
.
22,324 spectacles
.
.
7,000 fountain pens
.
.
51,370 watches to be repaired
.
.
230 clinical thermometers
[many items deleted]
Total RM 26,089,800.00
6. Textiles
462 boxcars rags
253 boxcars feathers for bedding
317 boxcars clothes and linen
Total RM 13,294,400.00
Ok, we have money, jewelry etc, which Raven will claim don't prove a
thing (only that the Nazis were filthy thieves). But - gold teeth?
Spectacles? 317 boxcars of clothes and linen?
Perhaps the Nazis replaced the gold teeth with new, better ones?
Maybe they gave the Jews new spectacles, or cured their eyesight?
Gave all the Jews new clothes?
Who are these "revisionists" trying to fool?
-Danny Keren.
Article 14625 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel 1/2
Date: 2 Aug 1994 09:53:47 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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(Since the topic of Suchomel's testimony came up, here it is)
This is a short excerpt from the eyewitness account of Franz
Suchomel, a member of the SS who served in the death camp Treblinka.
It is taken from the movie "Shoa". This is a translation;
if anyone who saw the movie detects an error, please inform me.
"L" stands for Lantzman, "S" for Suchomel.
-Danny Keren.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
L: Could you describe, with the utmost accuracy, your first
impression of Treblinka? With utmost accuracy, this is very
important.
S: My first impression from Treblinka (and this was the impression
of the other people with me also) was absolutely catastrophic.
Because they didn't tell us how and what - that they are
killing people there.
L: You didn't know?
S: No.
L: That is amazing.
S: But true. I didn't want to go - this was proved in my trial.
They told me "Mr. Suchomel, there are big workshops there, for
tailors and shoemakers, and you will watch over them".
L: But you knew it was a camp -
S: Yes. They told us "the Fuehrer ordered resettlement. This is an
order from the Fuehrer". Do you understand?
L: Yes. "Resettlement".
S: Resettlement. No one spoke of murder.
.
.
.
L: So, you arrived at Treblinka, and?
S: Stadie, the sergeant, showed us the camp. From corner to
corner. Just as we were going by, they opened the doors of the
gas chambers, and the people fell out like potatoes. Of course,
this shocked and freighted us. We went back, set on our
luggage and cried like old ladies.
Every day a hundred Jews were selected to drag the corpses to
the mass graves. In the evening, these Jews were thrown into
the gas chambers by the Ukrainians or shot by them. It was in
the hottest days of August and the earth moved in waves
because of the gases -
L: From the corpses?
S: Yes. Picture that, the graves were 6-7 meters deep, filled
with corpses, and the heat - do you understand? It was hellish.
L: You saw that yourself?
S: Yes, just once, in the first day. We vomited and we cried.
L: You cried?
S: Yes, we also cried. The smell was infernal -
L: Infernal?
S: Yes, because the gases were being released all the time. The
smell was awful and it traveled for kilometers -
L: Kilometers?
S: Kilometers.
L: Not only in Treblinka?
S: Everywhere, depending on the wind. The smell was carried by
the wind. Do you understand?
More and more people were coming and we didn't have the means
to kill them. In the "high places" they wanted to evacuate
the Warsaw Ghetto quickly. The gas chambers couldn't handle
the pressure, those little gas chambers. The Jews had to wait
for their turn, a day, two days, sometimes three days. They
saw what was awaiting them. They knew - maybe they were not
absolutely sure, but they knew. There were Jewish women who
slit the veins of their daughters during the night, and then
slit their own veins. Some Jews poisoned themselves. They heard
the engine which fed the gas chambers. A tank engine was in use
in those gas chambers. In Treblinka, the only gas in use was the
exhaust gas of an engine. Zyklon-B was used in Auschwitz.
Eberle, the commandant of the camp, called Lublin and said
'It is impossible to continue this way, I cannot continue
like this, it has to be stopped'. One night Wirth came, checked
everything, and immediately went back. He returned with some
people from Wolzec, these were practical experts. Wirth
succeeded to halt the trains. They cleaned up the corpses
that were laying there. Then, the old gas chambers were still
in action. Because there were so many dead people that it was
impossible to remove, piles of corpses lay for days next to
the gas chambers. Under them there was a layer, 10 centimeters
deep, of blood, worms, and filth ["dreck"]. Nobody was willing to
clean it. The Jews preferred to be shot than to work there.
L: Preferred to be shot?
S: Yes, it was terrible, to bury their people and to see all that...
the flesh sticking to their hands... so Wirth went there himself
with a few Germans and told them to prepare long straps, which were
tied around the corpses, and that's how they were dragged from there.
L: Who did that?
S: Germans.
L: Wirth?
S: Yes, both Germans and Jews.
L: But what did the Germans do?
S: They forced the Jews to work. They beat the Jews, and they also
helped to drag the corpses.
L: Who were the Germans who did this?
S: Our guards, who were guarding in Camp II.
L: The Germans themselves did it?
S: They had to.
L: They were the ones giving the orders.
S: They gave orders, yes. They gave orders and they received orders.
L: I think it was the Jews who did it.
S: In that case, the Germans had to participate.
Article 14628 of alt.revisionism:
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From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz figures
Date: 2 Aug 1994 13:43:05 +0200
Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <31lbg9$654@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl>
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
: Are you including the findings of the Nuremberg tribunal in this list of
: sources that do not accept the figure of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz? You
: do say "never accepted," which leads one to wonder how that same number
: became memorialized in 19 different languages at the Auschwitz camp itself.
The number '4 milion ' comes from SU authorities. Soviets took
Auschwitz documentation in 1945 and no research was allowed.
The Polish communist administration obeyed and memorialized.
Probably about 1981 became obvious that the 4 milion was a Soviet hoax
and the informations were removed. The other feature, which Mr Raven
ignores, was that Holocaust was ignored, all victims were equal.
Only now it's possible to present the nationality of the victims.
The number of victims is estimated at 1.2 - 1.4 milions, as far as I
remember.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Article 14629 of alt.revisionism:
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From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:31:31 +0200
Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
: THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
: By Mark Weber
: exterminate Europe's Jews and that the estimate of six million Jewish
: wartime dead is an irresponsible exaggeration.
3-3.5 milion of Polish Jews vanished during WWII. Their bodies or ashes
(after more or less precise cremation) can be found in the territory
of the pre-war Poland (50% of the prewar Poland is now abroad).
You have to add Jews from Lithuania, Latvia, Belorussia, Ukraine,
Austria, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, France, Holland, Italy,
Rumania and some other countries.
: Many Holocaust Claims Abandoned
: Revisionists point out that the Holocaust story has changed quite a lot
: over the years. Many extermination claims that were once widely accepted
: have been quietly dropped in recent years.
The same 'Katyn story' has changed. The common reason of hoaxes was
the existence of SU.
: In the face of the advancing Soviet forces, large numbers of Jews were
: evacuated during the final months of the war from eastern camps and ghettos
: to the remaining camps in western Germany. These camps quickly became
: terribly overcrowded, which severely hampered efforts to prevent the spread
: of epidemics. Furthermore, the breakdown of the German transportation
: system made it impossible to supply adequate food and medicine to the
: camps.
The question is - why Nazis evacuated Jews if they weren't able
to feed them and to prevent the epidemics? Jews weren't POWs, weren't
guilty of any crime.
: are no American memorials, "study centers," or annual observances for
: Stalin's victims, who vastly outnumber Hitler's.
I must agree with my disgusting opponent. US - personally Pres. Roosevelt,
supported Soviets in the Katyn denying hoax. GB government supported
Soviets till the 70-ties.
: particularly against the German people as a whole, eastern Europeans and
: the leadership of the Roman Catholic church.
As an 'Eastern European' I don't feel in any way offended by the truth
about the Holocaust. Let the writer doesn't 'represent' me
nor the Catholic church.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Article 14650 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Greg Raven Eats Crow
Date: 2 Aug 1994 23:26:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Greg Raven, Associate Editor of the Journal for Historical Review,
asked for the one best piece of evidence that there was a Nazi plan or
policy to exterminate Jews in gas chambers. In response to this
transparent ploy, he was offered a number of different testimonies.
Raven responded, and his response was - let's not mince words -
vaporized. Raven disappeared for two months, and I had begun to wonder if
he was too embarrassed to return (as well he should have been).
Alas, no. Raven has reappeared here as if nothing had happened. He
has even (finally) attempted to address the shredding of his rebuttal.
Let's see how he did.
In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
[...]
>My proposal for conducting a somewhat civilized discussion of this topic
>was to deal with one piece of evidence at a time, starting with whatever
>the exterminationists consider to be the "best" evidence, and then working
>on from there. I can only wonder why Keren and the others are so fearful of
>approaching this topic carefully and honestly.
I can only wonder why Raven is so fearful of approaching this topic
carefully and honestly. He wants to deal with one piece of evidence at
a time? OK. Let's cut to the chase. I'll deal with the testimony of SS
Private Boeck. Let's explore what it proves. Anything to make Mr. Raven
happy.
In his reply, on the subject of Boeck, Raven wrote:
"Pressac himself casts doubt on some of the aspects
of this statement, pointing out, for example, that
Boeck could only have witnessed one such gassing (at
most)."
This is a paraphrase - and worse, a paraphrase with no page number.
Someone who wanted to see if the paraphrase accurately reflected the
original would have to read through the whole book to find it. I raised
this question in a reply to Raven's rebuttal:
"Is 'at most' in Pressac's original text, or is it a clever insertion on
Mr. Raven's part, as we are only presented with a paraphrase, not a
direct quote, and no exact page citation to make it easy to check
the accuracy of it, so that if we want to verify it for ourselves we
must take the time to read Pressac cover to cover?"
Raven's scornful reply:
"Well, if you were familiar with Pressac's book, you would find it
relatively easy to locate the text, as it is in the section on SS
testimonies. Lacking that familiarity, you could have referred to
Faurisson's long review of Pressac's book, which appeared in two
parts in the Journal of Historical Review."
Apparently Mr. Raven feels that I should be intimately familiar with
Pressac's book, and if not, magically know what secondary source would
tell me where to find the part I'm looking for. Perhaps it would be
reading too much into this, but one could easily get the impression Raven
is being condescending, saying that if *I* were as good a historian as
*he*, I would be familiar with Pressac's book and know where to look - so
he need not (an d still does not) bother to tell me the page, as an amateur
like myself is not worth wasting his valuable time on. The most he will
do for me is tell me to look in the section on SS testimonies.
That's one way of reading Raven's response. But Dr. Faurisson, the
expert on texts, teaches us that there are other ways. And indeed, there
is.
I do not read it as the condescension of a professional historian to
an amateur. I read it as a desperate bluff. He won't tell me the page
not because I'm not worth bothering with, but because he knows that once
the true text of this book (which even Friedrich Berg has noted is hard
for the average person to find) is compared with Raven's paraphrase, he
will have no credibility left. He is terrified that if he gives me any
help at all, I will be able to expose him, and is desperately praying that
I don't have access to a copy.
Apparently Mr. Raven does not realize that I live in the area of
Washington, DC, home of the Library of Congress and the Holocaust Museum
library. While the Library of Congress copy is missing, the Museum has
not one but two copies in its library. I do have some familiarity with
Pressac's book, and I have actually known for some time that Raven's
paraphrase bears no relation to what Pressac really says, other than
containing the words "gassings," "see," and "one" (in that order).
I also know that "the" section on SS testimonies does not exist -
there is one set of testimonies on Krema I which includes SS men Pery
Broad and Rudolf Ho"ss, along with Sonderkommando members Alter
Fajnzylberg and - if memory serves - Filip Muller. The discussion of
Broad is on p. 128 (not 124 as Raven had it).
Here is the full text of Pressac's comments on Boeck's testimony,
found not in "the section on SS testimonies," but all the way over on page
181 of the English language edition:
"There is only one clue to show that the scene took place at Bunker
2: 'a long farmhouse'. In this type of account, this is already a
good deal. SS Bo"ck seems to have been a decent enough man. The
gassing of children upset him so much that he saw the SS medical
orderlies 'climb on the roof' (they did not climb so high) and did
not look at his wife for four weeks. Not everyone is cut out to be
an executioner. Hermann Langbein writes:
'Bo"ck is the only witness who demonstrated a sincere aversion
before the court.'
I would ask just one question: 'How many gassings did Bo"ck see?'
If he only saw the one described before the court, it is not so
surprising that his 'aversion' should remain intact. If he had
been forced by his duties to see them regularly, his attitude might
be different. It is all too easy to become hardened."
Pressac's text speaks for itself. It certainly does not need Raven to
speak for it. (Amusingly, Raven sarcastically commented at another point
on how nice it was that Keren had me to speak for him. Pot. Kettle.
Black.)
What Raven posted about what Pressac said - "Boeck could only have
witnessed one such gassing (at most)" - is now proven to be blatantly
false. That is that.
Raven asked:
"Mr. Stein, I now ask you, which of these testimonies -- that you
have gone to great lengths to defend -- do you feel to be the best
evidence I have asked for? Or, is there another? Whichever it is,
please present it so that we may discuss it."
I have an answer to this question, one which has been posted here by
several others. No single testimony or document is the best evidence for
the Holocaust. The volume, totality, and convergence of the evidence is
the best evidence. Raven is engaging in blatant intellectual dishonesty
in his methodology. It has been pointed out here time after time, and he
has never come up with a credible defense.
However, I now have a *single* piece of evidence which proves that
sufficient evidence *does* exist to prove the Holocaust. That evidence is
this: in order to cast doubt on the Holocaust, as his BEST EVIDENCE, Raven
is reduced not only to calling for a totally ridiculous method of
discussion, but to posting a proven falsehood. And proven falsehoods are
no evidence at all. If Raven had any real evidence that the Holocaust was
a hoax, he would not have to post falsehoods and then try to bluff his way
out when questioned about his source.
This is the *Associate Editor* of the Journal of Historical Review
we're talking about here, and this is the best he can do: post blatantly
distorted paraphrases of sources, then cover up the distortion by refusing
to give reasonable pointers - which any *honest* historian would be happy
to provide - to his obscure source. I've caught him and exposed him. End
of discussion.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 14652 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joint response to Greg Raven
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 1994 00:12:19 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 36
Message-ID:
References:
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In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
(Greg Raven) wrote:
[Among other...stuff]
> Mr. Stein, I now ask you, which of these testimonies -- that you have gone
> to great lengths to defend -- do you feel to be the best evidence I have
> asked for? Or, is there another? Whichever it is, please present it so that
> we may discuss it.
>
> I apologize to anyone who has had to wade through this. In the future,
> please letUs discuss one piece of evidence at a time.
Tell you what, Greg. We are apparently so dense that we cannot comprehend
your masterful techniques for historical research, and will never be able
to produce to your satisfaction the "best evidence" of the Nazi policy and
plan to exterminate the Jews and others by many means, including homicidal
gas chambers. To simplify things, why don't you tell us what it is you're
looking for -- what sort of evidence *exactly* are you looking for? You've
indicated that testimonies and postwar documents aren't good enough; you
insist that the combination of multiple documents isn't good enough. (Note
that this latter point is distinct from disputing the *interpretation* of
the combination of documents, which would at least be appropriate for
historical research. Instead, you assert flatly that each and every
document must be regarded in isolation. Care to explain how this makes for
valid historical debate?)
So what would do it? Tell us what the document should say and we'll let
you know if such a document exists. If it does, then you can dissect it.
If it does not, then you can tell us what you would consider the
second-best piece of evidence, and we'll go through the same process.
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
Article 14658 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joint response to Greg Raven
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 1994 11:29:39 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 30
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: 35.132.2.12
golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) wrote:
[to Mr. Raven:]
> So what would do it? Tell us what the document should say and we'll let
> you know if such a document exists. If it does, then you can dissect it.
> If it does not, then you can tell us what you would consider the
> second-best piece of evidence, and we'll go through the same process.
That's a damn good suggestion.
Previously, my highest-priority Question In Search Of An Answer was "what
is the single best argument that deniers have against the Holocaust?"
I now amend that. I now have two highest-priority questions, the second
being "please give a detailed specification of a hypothetical piece of
evidence that would convince you that the Holocaust happened."
Note that this second question cleverly turns Raven's debating tactics
around on himself. He's previously been asking for one piece of evidence
at a time. Now he must instead specify exactly what he's looking for in
one piece of evidence. If he dares to suggest that any one piece of
evidence could not possibly be enough, then he has admitted what we all
have been saying for quite some time: that the Holocaust, and indeed
anything of any consequence, is proved by the _convergence_ of evidence.
Those two highest-priority questions of mine are put forth for any denier
or revisionist to answer.
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
Article 14661 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joint response to Greg Raven
Date: 3 Aug 1994 22:12:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
[snip]
I really see no reason to respond to someone who has been proved to
use blatantly distorted paraphrase, except to correct one error:
>Stein then brings up the confession of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess:
>
>>>But back to the claim Raven makes. Apart from the fallacy of suggesting
>>>that the Museum "depends" on Hoess to make a point - there are countless
>>>other pieces of evidence upon which they could similarly "depend" - is
>>>it true that Lipstadt and Browning "have admitted that the Hoess
>>>statements are useless"?
>>>No. A grain of truth, covered by an ocean of distortion.
Raven didn't check his facts (surprise!). As much as I would like to
claim credit for it, the above text was by Jamie McCarthy.
>>>Lipstadt directed the article's author to her book, which merely
>>>points out what historians have known for decades: Hoess was wrong about
>>>the total death count. But where does Lipstadt say the "the Hoess
>>>statements are useless"? Again, nowhere.
>
>This is a gross distortion of the Vanity Fair article.
Well, the full text of the Vanity Fair article has been posted
elsewhere - as has Raven's paraphrase of Pressac's comments on Boeck
followed by the unabridged text of Pressac's comments - so readers of this
newsgroup can see for themselves who is the gross distorter of sources.
Let's just say I'm not losing any sleep.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 14672 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's methodology
Date: 4 Aug 1994 21:57:24 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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Barry Shein asked, in article ,
>> So what is the single best piece of evidence that World War II
>> occurred?
And Greg Raven replied, in article ,
>I would perhaps start off with declarations of war from both the Axis and
>Allied sides (presented one at a time, of course!), and then perhaps move
>to official documents about military campaigns, backed up with
>contempareneous photos of those campaigns, and perhaps finish with corpses
>that could be shown to have been the result of wartime action. Simple.
But it isn't so simple. What Mr. Raven is being asked to provide is
the *single* *best* piece of evidence that World War II occurred. In
his response he refers to "declarations" (plural) of war *and* "documents"
(plural) *and* "photos" (plural) *and* "corpses" (plural). That means
he expects us to accept a minimum or *eight* pieces of evidence as his
"single" piece of evidence. That's not what we want. What we want is
the *single* *best* piece of evidence that World War II occurred.
Or is this simply your way of admitting that proving that an historical
event occurred is not by a "single" piece of evidence but by the convergence
of numerous independent pieces of evidence?
Richard Schultz
Article 14673 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Raven's double standards
References: <31ro84$idb@agate.berkeley.edu>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Aug06.054300.12991@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 94 05:43:00 GMT
In article <31ro84$idb@agate.berkeley.edu> schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) writes:
>Barry Shein asked, in article ,
>>> So what is the single best piece of evidence that World War II
>>> occurred?
>And Greg Raven replied, in article ,
[list of multiple pieces of evidence deleted]
...to which Mr. Schultz replies:
>But it isn't so simple. What Mr. Raven is being asked to provide is
>the *single* *best* piece of evidence that World War II occurred. In
>his response he refers to "declarations" (plural) of war *and* "documents"
>(plural) *and* "photos" (plural) *and* "corpses" (plural). That means
>he expects us to accept a minimum or *eight* pieces of evidence as his
>"single" piece of evidence. That's not what we want. What we want is
>the *single* *best* piece of evidence that World War II occurred.
>Or is this simply your way of admitting that proving that an historical
>event occurred is not by a "single" piece of evidence but by the convergence
>of numerous independent pieces of evidence?
It is simply Mr. Raven's way of demonstrating that he employs a
clear double standard where historical debate is concerned. We can
add Mr. Raven's double standard to his known penchant for lying, and
begin to assemble an accurate picture of not only Mr. Raven's
approach to historical research, but the IHR's as well - he is,
after all, a Senior Editor...
I think it's time we re-wrote our joint response to Mr. Raven's
request for a "single piece" of "best evidence" to include this
enlightening exchange..
--
/^\__/^\ The Old Frog's Almanac
/ @ @ \ A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
( ) Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
\ ~~~~ /
Article 14681 of alt.revisionism:
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From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel 1/2
Date: 5 Aug 1994 09:18:58 +0200
Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
: Second, Keren is wrong in classifying Treblinka as a death camp: it was a
: transfer camp.
: all accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was a
: transit center from where Jews were resettled in the occupied Soviet
: territories. These messages, which arrived from settlements and camps in
: Belarus (Byelorussia), Ukraine, and even Russia proper (near Smolensk),
: were written by Jews who had been deported in 1942. Some letters and cards
: had been sent by mail and some had arrived through the underground. Many
: mentioned that the senders were working hard, but confirmed that they (and
: often their children) were being fed.47
Theoretically I can believe that several milion Jews were transported
to SU and after 'liberation' deported to Syberia. But now the Soviet
archives are opened, where are the documents? At least part
of the Jews would survive, where are they? Or do you believe
that Jews are some super-people who can be silent after 50 years
to help the anti-Nazi propaganda? People love to speak, to write
books and articles about their lives. Where are books written
by several milion of 'yransported' Jews?
Even if 100 000 Jews were transported to the occupied Soviet
territories it doesn't prove that all of them were.
The policy of extermination apparently changed several times.
The year 1942 mentioned in the text clearly shows that you are
aware of your method of propaganda, you wouldn't write 1943 or 1944
because it would be a story.
I was in the mythical East and I saw a memorial table of probably
200 000 Jews murdered in Minsk, Byelorussia. Any comments?
More than 50000 of Wilno (Vilnius) Jews were executed in the Ponary
forest. There are many accounts of local people, including one
written by an anti-communist writer Jozef Mackiewicz, who wasn't
in any way anti-Nazi biased.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Article 14682 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz figures
Date: 5 Aug 1994 12:26:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>Are you including the findings of the Nuremberg tribunal in this list of
>sources that do not accept the figure of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz? You
>do say "never accepted," which leads one to wonder how that same number
>became memorialized in 19 different languages at the Auschwitz camp itself.
Given that Mr. Raven's history of accurately reporting what his sources
say is, let us say, not a distinguished one, I would first ask for the
actual citation from the Nuremberg documents that "accept[s] the figure of
4 million deaths at Auschwitz". Even Hoess only estimated 2 million, after
all, and he was there.
As to the second point. I am not sure that one really wonders about that
if one is Greg Raven, but in any case, the answer is fairly straightforward.
After the war, the Polish government saw it in its interest to downplay
that the primary target of the Nazis' genocide was the Jews. In fact,
antisemitism in Poland, both "official" and "unofficial" continued for a
generation after the war. One of the ironies facing the Polish holocaust
survivors was that many of those who managed to get back to their homes
became victims of pogroms in 1946 and 1947. The culmination of the
government's anti-Semitic policy was in 1968, when the official
persecution of the Jews got so bad that many (actually, I think it was
most) left the country. All of this is discussed in detail in Lucy
Dawidowicz's book _The Holocaust and the Historians_, which is well
worth reading. Revisionists might want to take a look at what she says
about David Irving both there and in _The War Against the Jews_.
In a fairly recent _New Yorker_ article (it appeared in the 15 November
1993 issue; I believe the title was "Evidence of Evil"), the wording
of the Auschwitz memorial was discussed. The original Polish government
"statistics" claimed that four million people were murdered there, of
whom about a million were Jews. The figures accepted by historians
(and belatedly at the Auschwitz memorial) are that about one million
people were murdered there, almost all of whom were Jews.
In other words, even if we accept that the total number of people
killed there has been the subject of argument -- an admission that
I feel no need to make -- that the number of *Jews* murdered there was
on the order of one million has never been a matter of dispute. As
far as I can tell, the only dispute is over how seriously to take
Hoess's claim to have killed twice that number, but almost everyone
agrees that Hoess's number was an exaggeration. But in any case, the
argument that "they revised the number down from 4 million to 1 million,
so there's no reason to believe that this new figure isn't exaggerated
by a similar factor" is clearly fallacious, and falls to the ground of
its own weight when the facts of the matter are examined.
Richard Schultz
P.S. I eagerly await the evidence that World War II happened, because
I have found some evidence that it didn't, and in fact the whole
thing was a hoax.
Article 14689 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz figures
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 1994 11:59:37 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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<31tb66$4p9@agate.berkeley.edu>
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schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) wrote:
> As
> far as I can tell, the only dispute is over how seriously to take
> Hoess's claim to have killed twice that number, but almost everyone
> agrees that Hoess's number was an exaggeration
...including Hoess, don't forget, who stated that his source for the
2.5 million figure was probably wrong, and that he doubted 2.5 million
was possible because "even Auschwitz had limits to its destructive
capabilities."
I'm not aware of any serious historian who gives credence to the
_figure_ that Hoess states. Raven et al. would have me believe that,
therefore, serious historians don't give credence to _anything_ Hoess
says. That, of course, is nonsense.
> P.S. I eagerly await the evidence that World War II happened, because
> I have found some evidence that it didn't, and in fact the whole
> thing was a hoax.
I'd be interested to hear your evidence. :-/
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
I speak for no one but myself.
Article 14791 of alt.revisionism:
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From: srs3@crux2.cit.cornell.edu (Motti)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides
Date: 8 Aug 1994 18:00:25 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
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>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
>: THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
>: By Mark Weber
>: exterminate Europe's Jews and that the estimate of six million Jewish
>: wartime dead is an irresponsible exaggeration.
i would just like to add a comment about this expression
"both sides of the story". deniers use this expression all the
time to manipulate people. when hearing conflicting reports and
opinions many people presume that the truth lies somewhere in the
middle of the two opposing viewpoints. this is often the case;
but *only* when both of the viewpoints are reasonable. i won't
go into it here, but the revisionist view of the holocaust is
hardly on a plane of reason... it is more on a plane of passion.
i think the deniers use this tendency of people to consider truth
to be the the average of the 2 extremes as a way to manipulate naive
college student newspaper editors to print their essays in the
advertisment sections.
mordechai steve seidman
srs3@crux3.cit.cornell.edu
seid@ee.cornell.edu (send to this address if the crux3 address fails)
Article 14801 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A partial answer for Greg Raven (Auschwitz figures)
Date: 8 Aug 1994 22:40:09 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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In article ,
Greg Raven wrote:
>Are you including the findings of the Nuremberg tribunal in this list of
>sources that do not accept the figure of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz? You
>do say "never accepted," which leads one to wonder how that same number
>became memorialized in 19 different languages at the Auschwitz camp itself.
I answered the second part of this query in an earlier posting. Jerzy
Pankiewicz mentioned that the 4 million figure came from Soviet
authorities.
I happened to be looking up something completely different and came
across what is at least a partial answer to the presence of the 4 millions
at Auschwitz figure in the Nuremberg proceedings. All citations are from
the English edition of "Trial of the Major War Criminals" (the 42-volume
set, just so there's no confusion -- was it Raven or Vicksell who got
the two sets mixed up before?).
On 19 Feb 1946, Smirnov, one of the Soviet members of the tribunal
(I can't remember if he was the counsel for the USSR) presented several
Soviet films about the Nazis' atrocities, and mentioned the "findings"
of the "Extraordinary State Commission for Auschwitz" as being that
4 million citizens of numerous countries were killed there (VII-589).
This figure of 4 million appeared in the indictment. Interestingly
enough, the Smirnov did not specifically mention the Jews as victims
at Auschwitz, unlike some of the other camps where the Jews are specifically
mentioned as victims. This appears to give further support to the
explanation that the number came because the Polish and Soviet governments
wanted to downplay the specific targeting of the Jews by the Nazis, and
in part did that by exaggerating the number of non-Jewish victims
(cf. how the Soviet government chose to memorialize Babi Yar).
I am not sure if the number in the indictment indicates that the tribunal
"accepted" the figure (whatever that means). Hoess's testimony, that
the number killed there was 2 million (XI-397) or 2.5 million with
an additional 500,000 dying of starvation and disease (XI-415) already
makes the 4 million figure suspect, as has been pointed out some
large number of times before.
I did not have time to look up what the tribunal said in the sentencing.
Did they give a specific figure there?
I realize that this whole argument is beside the point -- although it's
obviously not beside Raven's point. Raven seems to think that if he
can sidetrack the discussion into some kind of quibble over detail that
he has won some kind of victory. As far as I can tell, no one can know
for certain exactly how many people were murdered at Auschwitz. It is
clear from what records did survive that the number is on the order of 1
million. Just because one figure was exaggerated does not mean that any
figure given must necessarily be exaggerated or even suspect.
Richard Schultz
Article 14837 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: A partial answer for Greg Raven (Auschwitz figures)
References: <1994Jul25.020700.2018@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <326c89$3e9@agate.berkeley.edu>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Aug09.222500.9635@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 94 22:25:00 GMT
In article <326c89$3e9@agate.berkeley.edu> schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) writes:
>On 19 Feb 1946, Smirnov, one of the Soviet members of the tribunal
>(I can't remember if he was the counsel for the USSR) presented several
>Soviet films about the Nazis' atrocities, and mentioned the "findings"
>of the "Extraordinary State Commission for Auschwitz" as being that
>4 million citizens of numerous countries were killed there (VII-589).
>This figure of 4 million appeared in the indictment. Interestingly
>enough, the Smirnov did not specifically mention the Jews as victims
>at Auschwitz, unlike some of the other camps where the Jews are specifically
>mentioned as victims. This appears to give further support to the
>explanation that the number came because the Polish and Soviet governments
>wanted to downplay the specific targeting of the Jews by the Nazis, and
>in part did that by exaggerating the number of non-Jewish victims
>(cf. how the Soviet government chose to memorialize Babi Yar).
Someone sent me the following today, and it adds some background
information to the "four million" Soviet figure:
The first is from 'The Jerusalem Report' of Oct. 3, 1991 (p. 29):
"It is often said that four million people - including 2.5 million
Jews, and large numbers of Catholics and agnostic Communists - died at
Auschwitz. This inflated figure is a propaganda invention of Polish
Communists designed to deny the specificity of the holocaust, according to
Hebrew University historian Yehuda Bauer.
Citing research by French historian Georges Wellers, himself an
Auschwitz survivor, Bauer places the total at about 1.6 million. Of these,
about 1,350,000 were Jews, of whom 30,000 died of maltreatment, and the
rest by gassing with Zyklon-B. The total number of Poles killed there was
83,000. In addition, 20,000 Gypsies and 11,000 Russians, along with 140,000
inmates considered enemies of the Nazi regime, perished there".
The second, from the 'NEWS WEEKLY,' of May 11, 1991, (p 19):
Auschwitz: controversy over the numbers
Alfred Cattani
Some time ago, at the monument on the grounds of the former Auschwitz
concentration camp, the memorial tablet dedicated to the victims of this
death factory was removed.
The action was prompted by the results of a study conducted by an official
historians' committee established by Poland's Ministry of Culture. The
study concluded that the number of Auschwitz victims had not been four
million, as stated on the tablet, but the much smaller figure of about one
million. A similar conclusion was expressed by Franciszek Piper, head of
the Historical Department at the Auschwitz Museum.
This triggered a controversy in Poland over whether removing the tablet had
been an appropriate action. The dispute spread to Germany. Spokesmen for
Jewish communities expressed their indignation, because they regarded the
decision to take down the tablet as a mockery of the victims, and saw the
debate as mere numerical speculation calculated to trivialise Nazi crimes.
It is a delicate matter. The crimes of Auschwitz were of such magnitude
and such character that any dispute over the exact figures seems an
outrage. Moreover, a debate such as this one threatens to provide new
ammunition for those revisionists who speak of the "Auschwitz Lie" and, in
order to minimise Nazi atrocities, deny the deliberate destruction of
European Jewry.
The Final Solution, and Auschwitz along with it, will constitute a horrible
trauma for Jewish people for generations to come. Outsiders should
approach it with utmost respect. It is almost impossible to discuss the
number of victims without doing emotional damage. Yet it would be a
mistake simply to remain silent and view the removal of the Auschwitz
tablet merely as an act of overt anti-Semitism. The question examined by
the Polish historians was posed by Western historians and writers decades
ago, and though their answers varied, they tended in much the same
direction.
In Poland, however, the figure of four million Auschwitz victims - which
was used in the bill of indictment at the Nuremberg Trials - remained taboo
in the post-war era largely for political reasons. the figure itself was
first mentioned in the report of a Soviet investigatory commission, which
travelled to Auschwitz following the liberation of the camp in early 1945
and issued its report on May 12 of that year.
The Soviet study group, which also examined the organisational and
technical aspects of the death camp, based its figure of four million
mainly on the capacity of the crematoria in Auschwitz and its annexe at
Birkenau (where most of the bodies were burned). That it should have
arrived at such a figure on the basis of the available information is not
strange.
The American historian, Arno J. Mayer, who is today Professor of
Contemporary European History at Princeton University, reached a similar
conclusion about the destructive capacities of Auschwitz and Birkenau in a
study published as recently as 1988.
Doubts about the four million were expressed as early as the 1950s. One of
the first critics was the British historian Gerald Reitlinger in his 'The
Final Solution'. Basing his work on statistics compiled for Hitler in
1943, he suggested that a much greater number of Jews than had previously
been supposed died in the ghettos and in transport, rather than in the
camps themselves. Overall, he concluded, the Holocaust had destroyed not
six million Jews, as had been stated at the Nuremberg Trials in 1945-46,
but somewhere between 4.2 and 4.9 million. A third of those, he stated,
had died not through direct murder, but from overwork, illness, starvation
and general distress.
As to Auschwitz, said Reitlinger, whose work did not go undisputed, it was
impossible to make a precise estimate because of the many imponderables
involved. But the figure provided by the Soviet study group, he
maintained, could not stand up to serious examination. Venturing an
estimate, however, he concluded that "not much less than a million" died in
Auschwitz and its gas chambers. Reitlinger's book reflected the state of
knowledge in the mid-1950s.
The American historian Raoul Hillberg, whose major study first appeared in
1961 and was published in a revised edition in 1982, gave a higher figure
than Reitlinger - "more than a million".
According to Hillberg, a total of more than five million Jews fell victim
to the Nazi genocide. he based his figures on a comparison of Jewish
populations in the various European countries before the war and after
1945. Hillberg, too, expressed an awareness that these horrific figures
could be no more than approximations. In September 1989, writing in the
'Jerusalem Post', professor Yehuda Bauer of the Hebrew University and
Georges Wellers of the Jewish Documentation Centre in Paris published
similar figures for Auschwitz (1.7 million dead of whom 1.4 million were
Jews).
The Nazi criminals directly involved in the Final solution deliberately
tried to mask these figures; their writings about the death camps are
unreliable. Rudolf Hoess, the first commandant of Auschwitz, cited Adolf
Eichmann, who allegedly told him shortly before the war's end that 2.5
million Jews had died in Auschwitz. During the interrogations immediately
after his arrest in the spring of 1946, Hoess initially used that figure,
stating that 2.5 million had been gassed in the camp and 500,000 more had
died of illness and exhaustion. But in the course of subsequent
investigations, Hoess changed his story. In his memoirs, written between
October 1946 and January 1947 in his Cracow prison cell, he penned a
country-by-country list of camp victims (an incomplete list according to
Martin Broszat, who edited the Hoess memoirs). He offers a total of
something more than one million - and cynically adds that even in Auschwitz
the potential for destruction had its limits.
It is a depressing undertaking to reduce the Holocaust to abstract
statistics. Individual suffering tends to disappear behind the
astronomical figures. In his book, Reitlinger properly notes that no one's
guilt is reduced merely because an estimate of this unimaginable crimes
turns out to have been too high. Nor could a more precise figure, were one
ever to become available, in any way mitigate the justice of Jewish demands
for guarantees against a repetition of such horror.
=30=
--
/^\__/^\ The Old Frog's Almanac
/ @ @ \ A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
( ) Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
\ ~~~~ /
Article 14966 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A partial answer for Greg Raven (Auschwitz figures)
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 23:50:12 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 30
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In article <1994Aug09.222500.9635@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:
> It is a depressing undertaking to reduce the Holocaust to abstract
> statistics. Individual suffering tends to disappear behind the
> astronomical figures. In his book, Reitlinger properly notes that no one's
> guilt is reduced merely because an estimate of this unimaginable crimes
> turns out to have been too high. Nor could a more precise figure, were one
> ever to become available, in any way mitigate the justice of Jewish demands
> for guarantees against a repetition of such horror.
I would think that if you were close to one of those "abstract statistics"
of those who lost his life, you might feel differently, but that is a
matter of perception.
What is undeniable is that in history as in other endeavors, the truth is
preferable to the lie. Those who do not wish to become bogged down in the
numbers game over "Holocaust" "victims" should simply come clean on the
matter and move on to something that can be proven/supported with evidence.
This means, if there is no evidence to support a statement that some number
of millions of people died at a certain camp, then do not make the claim in
the first place.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14967 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dawidowizc on Irving's fraud: No reply possible
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 23:56:28 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 42
Message-ID:
References: <326ajs$2r7@agate.berkeley.edu> <326t82$qil@search01.news.aol.com> <1994Aug09.223712.9734@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <1994Aug09.223712.9734@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:
> (text deleted)
> To understand those two lines it is necessary to read also the first
> two lines of the telephone conversation. Here is the full German
> text:
>
> Verhaftung Dr. Jekelius [name not fully decipherable]
> Angebl [ich] Sohn Molotovs.
> Judentransport aus Berline.
> keine Liquidierung.<37>
>
> That is: Arrest Dr. Jekelius. Presumably Molotov's son. Transport
> of Jews from Berlin. No liquidation.
>
> The last two lines now make sense. Himmler called Heydrich to
> instruct him that a certain Dr. Jekelius, presumed to be the Soviet
> Foreign Minister's son, was to be taken in custody by the security
> police. Jekelius could be located in the transport of Jews from
> Berlin arriving in Prague and, unlike the
> rest of the transport, was not to be liquidated. (Perhaps the
> Germans intended to exchange Jekelius for one of their officers
> captured by the Russians.)
>
> Irving, wittingly or unwittingly, has in fact disproved his own
> theory.
I asked David about this when at the last IHR Conference (October 1992),
and he told me that Dawidowicz was wrong. I don't remember Irving's exact
words, but the essense of his reply was that this document, being a
telephone log, is not written in complete sentences. The entries are
contemporaneously-created notes of the different subjects that came up
during the call. Therefore, to run the separate notes together to create
the impression that this was all one topic is misleading.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14968 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Berg, what evidence do you have? (#3)
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 23:59:56 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 35
Message-ID:
References:
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
> This is the third in a series of questions for Friedrich Berg.
>
> Mr. Berg has seized upon what he believes to be a contradiction in the
> history of the Holocaust, namely that diesel exhaust gas could not
> possibly have been used to kill people. Since historians tell us that
> diesel engines were used at the Reinhard extermination camps, says Mr.
> Berg, the historians must be wrong. The conclusion, according to Mr.
> Berg, is that the Nazis did not kill anyone with poison gas at the
> Reinhard camps, nor anywhere else. He is the leading expert, in the
> Holocaust-denier camp, on the subject of diesel extermination chambers.
I will allow Mr. Berg to reply to the rest of this post, but you are
misleading when you say that historians tell us that diesel engines were
used at the Operation Reinhard extermination camps. First, they were not
extermination camps, and I defy you to produce any contemporaneous German
official documentation that refers to them as such.
Second, and more importantly, to say that historians make this claim is to
imply that a study has been done of this matter, such that the documents
and physical evidence has lead them to this conclusion. I think that if you
look into this matter, you will find that the "historians" to which you
refer are actually basing their "conclusions" on the very shakey testimony
of so-called witnesses, testimony that, as I have pointed out in earlier
posts, is filled with other erroneous and/or unbelieveable statements.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14969 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interrogation of Reinhard Wachman (2)
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 00:05:36 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 33
Message-ID:
References: <1994Aug12.013640.23491@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
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In article <1994Aug12.013640.23491@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:
> Archive/File: holocaust/poland/reinhard/treblinka yeger.002
> Last-Modified: 1994/08/10
>
> EXCERPT from Stenographic Report of Interrogation of defendant YEGER',
> A.I., dated April 2, 1948.
>
> (text deleted)
>
> Question: What did the Treblinka death camp look like?
>
> Answer: The Treblinka death camp was situated on an area of about 15
> hectares, which was fenced in on all sides by barbed wire and
> anti-tank obstacles also entwined with barbed wire. Pine branches were
> interwoven with the barbed wire. The camp was shaped like a quadrangle
> and four watchtowers stood at each corner.
> (text deleted)
Oh, boy. More Soviet-supplied "proof." I suppose one could go through this
line by line, but the simple fact that the section of Treblinka now
referred to as the "death camp" was not rectilinear at all should pretty
much handle this "testimony." The Volume 12 number 2 issue of the Journal
of Historical Review shows not only the true lay-out of this camp, but also
Allied aerial photos that clearly show it not to be rectilinear.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14970 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Whiteway's story
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 00:13:14 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 40
Message-ID:
References: <3220rd$29s@search01.news.aol.com> <1994Aug08.030837.22458@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <32g8lc$2mb@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA> <32grsi$68h@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <32grsi$68h@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> Mark, in partial response to your question, the answer IMHO is very
> simple - nobody's perfect.
>
> It was impossible to destroy all traces of the Nazi genocide. Even
> more so when Germany was taking a horrible beating on all fronts and
> subject to devastating bombing raids.
>
> The SS did not succeed to kill *all* the internees; it did not succeed
> to destroy *all* the documents; it did not succeed to burn *all* the
> corpses; it did not succeed to destroy *all* the murder machinery.
>
This is an extremely misleading response. Apparently, the Nazis were able
to destroy all traces of the so-called gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
There are no authentic documents, buildings, etc. there for researchers to
examine. About the closest there is is a "reconstructed" gas chamber, for
which there are no original plans to show why it was "reconstructed" in its
current manner.
In fact, there are no documents anywhere showing evidence of a homicidal
gas chamber. This means that not only are there no German documents, but
there are also no Allied documents of code intercepts, stolen plans, etc.
Furthermore, to say that the Germans had time to destroy so-called gas
chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau but not at Dachau, where, we are told, there
are false shower heads (!), is to ask us to believe the incredible. Any
reasonable person would realize that false shower heads are pretty strong
evidence that something strange was going on, but you claim the Germans did
nothing to destroy the other so-called gas chambers. This argument serves
neither logic nor history.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14971 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Whiteway's story
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 00:19:38 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 38
Message-ID:
References: <3220rd$29s@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:
>
> Something I'm becoming more curious about and will keep an eye out for
> material on are smaller concentration and death camps.
>
> (text deleted)
>
> So on the surface it seems to lead to a dead-end. However, it is only
> a dead-end if we accept that the only camps were those major camps
> Yahil puts on the map.
>
> (text deleted)
The exterminationists seem to want it both ways. They want a grand Nazi
plan to exterminate the Jews in a few purpose-built camps in the eastern
territories, but they alternatively want there to be "mini" gas chambers
all over Europe. The first claim arose out of early studies that showed
that those camps accessible to western allies had no gas chambers. This
made it necessary to "move" all the gassings to the camps in the east,
which were controlled (and used) by the Soviets after the war. Now that
revisionists have shown conclusively that the "evidence" supporting the
existence of the eastern gas chambers is invalid, exterminationists now
seem to pine for the old days, when there were hundreds of gas chambers.
Still, there is no proof of ANY of these gas chambers ... not a one. It is
almost as if, in response to criticism about its "lone gunman" theory,
people close to the Warren Commission start letting it be know that there
might actually have been a couple of dozen gunmen scattered around, all
shooting in unison.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14972 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads and Archaeological Fakes
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 00:32:54 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 302
Message-ID:
References: <32kj5l$688@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <32kj5l$688@search01.news.aol.com>, wolfrune1@aol.com
(WolfRune1) wrote:
> (text deleted)
>
> Still no one answered my question. What I am looking for is a list of
> recent books by either Holocaust Historians or Historical Revisionists
> that discuss the myth of human soap, and or human skin gloves, books, lamp
> shades and shrunken heads supposedly made by nazis.
>
> I hope this is clear enough for everyone.
"Jewish Soap"
One of the most lurid and slanderous Holocaust claims is the story that the
Germans manufactured soap from the bodies of their victims. Although a
similar charge during the First World War was exposed as a hoax almost
immediately afterwards, it was nevertheless revived and widely believed
during the Second. More important, this accusation was "proved" at the main
Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946, and has been authoritatively endorsed by
numerous historians in the decades since. In recent years, though, as part
of a broad retreat from the most obviously untenable aspects of the
"orthodox" extermination story, Holocaust historians have grudgingly
conceded that the human soap tale is a wartime propaganda lie. In their
retreat, though, these historians have tried to dismiss the soap story as a
mere wartime "rumor," neglecting to mention that international Jewish
organizations and then Allied governments endorsed and sanctioned this
libelous canard.
Wartime rumors that the Germans were manufacturing soap from the corpses of
slaughtered Jews were based in part on the fact that soap bars distributed
by German authorities in Jewish ghettos and camps bore the impressed
initials "RIF," which many took to stand for "Rein jdisches Fett" or "Pure
Jewish Fat." (It did not seem to matter that the letters were "RIF" and not
"RJF.") These rumors spread so widely in 1941 and 1942 that by late 1942
German authorities in Poland and Slovakia were expressing official concern
about their impact.
According to a Polish source quoted in a secret wartime U.S. Army military
intelligence report, for example, the Germans were operating a "human soap
factory" in 1941 at Turek, Poland. "The Germans had brought thousands of
Polish teachers, priests and Jews there and after extracting the blood
serum from their bodies, had thrown them on large pots and melted off
grease to make soap," the intelligence report added.
Macabre "Jewish soap" jokes became popular in the ghettos and camps, and
many non-Jews on the outside came to believe the story. When trains loaded
with Jewish deportees stopped temporarily at rail stations, Poles
reportedly would gleefully shout at them: "Jews to soap!" Even British
prisoners of war interned at Auschwitz in 1944 testified later about the
wartime rumors that corpses of gassing victims were being turned into soap
there.
In spite of its inherently incredible character, the soap story became an
important feature of Jewish and Allied war propaganda. Rabbi Stephen S.
Wise, wartime head of both the World Jewish Congress and the American
Jewish Congress, publicly charged in November 1942 that Jewish corpses were
being "processed into such war-vital commodities as soap, fats and
fertilizer" by the Germans. He further announced that the Germans were
"even exhuming the dead for the value of the corpses," and were paying
fifty marks for each body.
In late 1942, the Congress Weekly, published by the American Jewish
Congress, editorialized that the Germans were turning Jews "by scientific
methods of dissolution into fertilizer, soap and glue." An article in the
same issue reported that Jewish deportees from France and Holland were
being processed into "soap, glue and train oil" in at least two special
factories in Germany. Typical of many other American periodicals, the
influential New Republic reported in early 1943 that the Germans were
"using the bodies of their Jewish victims to make soap and fertilizer in a
factory at Siedlce."
During June and July 1943, two prominent representatives of the
Moscow-based "Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee" toured the United States and
raised more than two million dollars for the Soviet war effort at a series
of mass meetings. At each of these rallies, Soviet Jewish leader Solomon
Mikhoels showed the crowd a bar of soap that he said was made from Jewish
corpses.
After the war the soap story was given important legitimacy at the main
Nuremberg trial. L. N. Smirnov, Chief Counsellor of Justice for the USSR,
declared to the Tribunal:
...The same base, rationalized SS technical minds which created gas
chambers and murder vans, began devising such methods of complete
annihilation of human bodies, which would not only conceal the traces of
their crimes, but also to serve in the manufacturing of certain products.
In the Danzig Anatomical Institute, semi-industrial experiments in the
production of soap from human bodies and the tanning of human skin for
industrial purposes were carried out.
Smirnov quoted at length from an affidavit by Sigmund Mazur, an Institute
employee, which was accepted as Nuremberg exhibit USSR-197. It alleged that
Dr. Rudolf Spanner, the head of the Danzig Institute, had ordered the
production of soap from corpses in 1943. According to Mazur's affidavit,
Dr. Spanner's operation was of interest to high-ranking German officials.
Education Minister Bernhard Rust and Health Leader Dr. Leonardo Conti, as
well as professors from other medical institutes, came to witness Spanner's
efforts. Mazur also claimed to have used the "human soap" to wash himself
and his laundry.
A human soap "recipe," allegedly prepared by Dr. Spanner (Nuremberg
document USSR-196), was also presented. Finally, a sample of what was
supposed to be a piece of "human soap" was submitted to the Nuremberg
Tribunal as exhibit USSR-393.
In his closing address to the Tribunal, chief British prosecutor Sir
Hartley Shawcross echoed his Soviet colleague: "On occasion, even the
bodies of their victims were used to make good the wartime shortage of
soap." And in their final judgment, the Nuremberg Tribunal judges found
that "attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims
in the commercial manufacture of soap."
It is worth emphasizing here that the "evidence" presented at the Nuremberg
Tribunal for the bogus soap story was no less substantial than the
"evidence" presented for the claims of mass extermination in "gas
chambers." At least in the former case, an actual sample of soap supposedly
made from corpses was submitted in evidence.
After the war, supposed Holocaust victims were solemnly buried, in the form
of soap bars, in Jewish cemeteries. In 1948, for example, four such bars
wrapped in a funeral shroud were ceremoniously buried according to Jewish
religious ritual at the Haifa cemetery in Israel. Other bars of "Jewish
soap" have been displayed as grim Holocaust relics at the Jewish Historical
Institute in Warsaw, the Stutthof Museum near Gdansk (Danzig), the Yivo
Institute in New York, the Holocaust Museum in Philadelphia, the Jewish
Holocaust Centre in Melbourne (Australia), and at various locations in
Israel.
Numerous Jews who lived in German ghettos and camps during the war helped
keep the soap story alive many years later. Ben Edelbaum, for example,
wrote in his 1980 memoir Growing Up in the Holocaust:
Often with our rations in the ghettos, the Germans had included a bar of
soap branded with initials R.J.F. which came to be known as "Rif" soap. It
wasn't until the war had ended that we learned the horrible truth about the
bar of soap. Had we known in the ghetto, every bar of "Rif" soap would have
been accorded a sacred Jewish funeral in the cemetery at Marysin. As it
was, we were completely oblivious to its origin and used the bones and
flesh of our murdered loved ones to wash our bodies.
Nesse Godin was transferred from a ghetto in Lithuania to the Stutthof
concentration camp in the spring of 1944. In a 1983 interview, she recalled
her arrival there:
That day they gave us a shower and a piece of soap. After the war we found
out the soap was made out of pure Jew fat, Rein Juden Fett, marked in the
initials on the soap that I washed with. For all I know sometimes maybe
there was a little bit of my father's fat in that soap that I washed with.
How do you think I feel when I think about that?
Mel Mermelstein, the former Auschwitz inmate who was featured in the
sensationalized April 1991 cable television movie "Never Forget" (and who
is currently suing the Institute for Historical Review and three other
defendants for $11 million), declared in a 1981 sworn deposition that he
and other camp inmates used soap bars made from human fat. It was an
"established fact," he insisted, that the soap he washed with was made from
Jewish bodies.
Renowned "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal repeated the soap tale in a series
of articles published in 1946 in the Austrian Jewish community paper Der
Neue Weg. In the first of these he wrote:
During the last weeks of March the Romanian press reported an unusual piece
of news: In the small Romanian city of Folticeni twenty boxes of soap were
buried in the Jewish cemetery with full ceremony and complete funeral
rites. This soap had been found recently in a former German army depot. On
the boxes were the initials RIF, "Pure Jewish Fat." These boxes were
destined for the Waffen-SS. The wrapping paper revealed with completely
cynical objectivity that this soap was manufactured from Jewish bodies.
Surprisingly, the thorough Germans forgot to describe whether the soap was
produced from children, girls, men or elderly persons.
Wiesenthal went on:
After 1942 people in the General Government [Poland] knew quite well what
the RIF soap meant. The civilized world may not believe the joy with which
the Nazis and their women in the General Government thought of this soap.
In each piece of soap they saw a Jew who had been magically put there, and
had thus been prevented from growing into a second Freud, Ehrlich or
Einstein.
In another article he observed: "The production of soap from human fat is
so unbelievable that even some who were in concentration camps find it
difficult to comprehend."
Over the years, numerous supposedly reputable historians have promoted the
durable soap story. Journalist-historian William L. Shirer, for example,
repeated it in his best-selling work, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.
Leading Soviet war propagandist Ilya Ehrenburg wrote in his postwar memoir:
"I have held in my hand a cake of soap stamped with the legend 'pure Jewish
soap', prepared from the corpses of people who had been destroyed. But
there is no need to speak of these things: thousands of books have been
written about them."
A standard history studies textbook used in Canadian secondary schools,
Canada: The Twentieth Century, told students that the Germans "boiled" the
corpses of their Jewish victims "to make soap." The Anatomy of Nazism, a
booklet published and distributed by the Zionist "Anti-Defamation League"
of B'nai B'rith, stated: "The process of brutalization did not end with the
mass murders themselves. Large quantities of soap were manufactured from
the corpses of those murdered."
A detailed 1981 work, Hitler's Death Camps, repeated the soap story in
lurid detail. While noting that "some historians claim that the Nazi
manufacture of soap from human fat is just a grim rumor," author Konnilyn
Feig nevertheless accepted the story because "most East European camp
scholars...validate the soap stories, and other kinds of bars made from
humans are displayed in Eastern Europe -- I have seen many over the years."
New York Rabbi Arthur Schneier repeated the tale at the opening ceremony of
the largest Holocaust meeting in history. In his invocation to the
"American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors," held in Washington in
April 1983, the Rabbi solemnly declared: "We remember the bars of soap with
the initials RJF -- Rein jdisches Fett, Pure Jewish Fat -- made from the
bodies of our loved ones."
In spite of all the apparently impressive evidence, the charge that the
Germans manufactured soap from human beings is a falsehood, as Holocaust
historians are now belatedly acknowledging. The "RIF" soap bar initials
that supposedly stood for "Pure Jewish Fat" actually indicated nothing more
sinister than "Reich Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning" ("Reichsstelle
fr Industrielle Fettversorgung"), a German agency responsible for wartime
production and distribution of soap and washing products. RIF soap was a
poor quality substitute that contained no fat at all, human or otherwise.
Shortly after the war the public prosecutor's office of Flensburg, Germany,
began legal proceedings against Dr. Rudolf Spanner for his alleged role in
producing human soap at the Danzig Institute. But after an investigation
the charge was quietly dropped. In a January 1968 letter, the office stated
that its inquiry had determined that no soap from human corpses was made at
the Danzig Institute during the war.
More recently, Jewish historian Walter Laqueur "denied established history"
by acknowledging in his 1980 book, The Terrible Secret, that the human soap
story has no basis in reality. Gitta Sereny, another Jewish historian,
noted in her book Into That Darkness: "The universally accepted story that
the corpses were used to make soap and fertilizer is finally refuted by the
generally very reliable Ludwigsburg Central Authority for Investigation
into Nazi Crimes."
Deborah Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history, similarly "rewrote
history" when she confirmed in 1981: "The fact is that the Nazis never used
the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone else, for the production of
soap."
In April 1990, professor Yehuda Bauer of Israel's Hebrew University,
regarded as a leading Holocaust historian, as well as Shmuel Krakowski,
archives director of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, confirmed that
the human soap story is not true. Camp inmates "were prepared to believe
any horror stories about their persecutors," Bauer said. At the same time,
though, he had the chutzpah to blame the legend on "the Nazis."
In fact, blame for the soap story lies rather with individuals such as
Simon Wiesenthal and Stephen Wise, organizations like the World Jewish
Congress, and the victorious Allied powers, none of whom has ever
apologized for promoting this vile falsehood.
Why did Bauer and Krakowski decide that this was the appropriate time to
officially abandon the soap story? Krakowski himself hints that a large
part of the motivation for this "tactical retreat" has been to save what's
left of the sinking Holocaust ship by throwing overboard the most obvious
falsehoods. In the face of the growing Revisionist challenge, easily
demonstrable falsehoods like the soap story have become dangerous
embarrassments because they raise doubts about the entire Holocaust legend.
As Krakowski put it: "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from
human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give
them something to use against the truth?"
The bad faith of those making this calculated and belated concession to
truth is shown by their failure to note that the soap myth was
authoritatively "confirmed" at Nuremberg, and by their unwillingness to
deal with the implications of that confirmation for the credibility of the
Tribunal and other supposedly trustworthy authorities in establishing
other, more fundemental aspects of the Holocaust story.
The striking contrast between the prompt postwar disavowal by the British
government of the infamous "human soap" lie of the First World War, and the
way in which a similarly baseless propaganda story from the Second World
War was officially endorsed by the victorious Allied powers and then
authoritatively maintained for so many years not only points up the
dispiriting lack of integrity on the part of so many Western historians,
but underscores the general decline in Western ethical standards during
this century.
The "human soap" story demonstrates anew the tremendous impact that a
wartime rumor, no matter how fantastic, can have once it has taken hold,
particularly when it is disseminated as a propaganda lie by influential
individuals and powerful organizations. That so many intelligent and
otherwise thoughtful people could ever have seriously believed that the
Germans distributed bars of soap brazenly labeled with letters indicating
that they were manufactured from Jewish corpses shows how readily even the
most absurd Holocaust fables can be -- and are -- accepted as fact.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14976 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The "revisionist" war of attrition
Date: 15 Aug 1994 21:07:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <32p3ge$k8d@access3.digex.net>
References: <32ojai$8fi@cat.cis.brown.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net
In article <32ojai$8fi@cat.cis.brown.edu>,
Danny Keren wrote:
>It seems more and more that Jamie McCarthy and Ken McVay were right;
>the "revisionist scholars" are launching a war of attrition. Raven
>thinks that if he repeats his lies again and again and again, people
>will tire of responding to them.
Of course, thanks to the magic of computer technology, the more he
lies, the *easier* it becomes to respond, as all of his unexplained, um,
"inaccuracies" can be posted as often as needed to demonstrate just how
credible a "scholar" our Mr. Raven is. By default, people are assumed to
be telling the truth. However, once they start uttering proven falsehoods
on a regular basis, the burden of proof *does* get reversed. I'd say
given his proven distortions of Lipstadt and Pressac, about now the burden
is on Greg Raven to document everything he says with exact quotes and page
numbers from reputable sources - any paraphrase or any citation without a
page number from him should be *assumed* fraudulent until proven
otherwise.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 14978 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads and Archaeological Fakes
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 21:35:04 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 77
Message-ID:
References: <32kj5l$688@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net
In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
(Greg Raven) wrote:
> In article <32kj5l$688@search01.news.aol.com>, wolfrune1@aol.com
> (WolfRune1) wrote:
>
> > (text deleted)
> >
> > Still no one answered my question. What I am looking for is a list of
> > recent books by either Holocaust Historians or Historical Revisionists
> > that discuss the myth of human soap, and or human skin gloves, books, lamp
> > shades and shrunken heads supposedly made by nazis.
> >
> > I hope this is clear enough for everyone.
>
> "Jewish Soap"
[Much of old, nonresponsive article deleted. Greg, why not write something
new? This one had a reference to an ongoing Mermelstein lawsuit....]
> Shortly after the war the public prosecutor's office of Flensburg, Germany,
> began legal proceedings against Dr. Rudolf Spanner for his alleged role in
> producing human soap at the Danzig Institute. But after an investigation
> the charge was quietly dropped. In a January 1968 letter, the office stated
> that its inquiry had determined that no soap from human corpses was made at
> the Danzig Institute during the war.
>
> More recently, Jewish historian Walter Laqueur "denied established history"
> by acknowledging in his 1980 book, The Terrible Secret, that the human soap
> story has no basis in reality. Gitta Sereny, another Jewish historian,
>
> noted in her book Into That Darkness: "The universally accepted story that
> the corpses were used to make soap and fertilizer is finally refuted by the
> generally very reliable Ludwigsburg Central Authority for Investigation
> into Nazi Crimes."
>
> Deborah Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history, similarly "rewrote
> history" when she confirmed in 1981: "The fact is that the Nazis never used
> the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone else, for the production of
> soap."
>
> In April 1990, professor Yehuda Bauer of Israel's Hebrew University,
> regarded as a leading Holocaust historian, as well as Shmuel Krakowski,
> archives director of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, confirmed that
> the human soap story is not true. Camp inmates "were prepared to believe
> any horror stories about their persecutors," Bauer said. At the same time,
> though, he had the chutzpah to blame the legend on "the Nazis."
>
> In fact, blame for the soap story lies rather with individuals such as
> Simon Wiesenthal and Stephen Wise, organizations like the World Jewish
> Congress, and the victorious Allied powers, none of whom has ever
> apologized for promoting this vile falsehood.
>
> Why did Bauer and Krakowski decide that this was the appropriate time to
> officially abandon the soap story? Krakowski himself hints that a large
> part of the motivation for this "tactical retreat" has been to save what's
> left of the sinking Holocaust ship by throwing overboard the most obvious
> falsehoods. In the face of the growing Revisionist challenge, easily
> demonstrable falsehoods like the soap story have become dangerous
> embarrassments because they raise doubts about the entire Holocaust legend.
> As Krakowski put it: "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from
> human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give
> them something to use against the truth?"
And yet, all the refutation Greg cites came from what he would call
"exterminationist" sources. Nobody in the denier camps has ever managed to
disprove this "easily demonstrable falsehood." Why is that? Given your
apparent refusal to accept at face value *any* statement by
"exterminationist" sources, Greg, I would expect you to challenge Laqueur,
Sereny, Lipstadt, Bauer and Krakowski to *prove* their retraction of the
soap story. Or do you accept their words when they say something you like,
and disagree only when you don't like what they say?
--
D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms.
-- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_
Article 14979 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dawidowicz on Irving's fraud
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 20:42:03 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 18
Message-ID:
References: <326ajs$2r7@agate.berkeley.edu> <326t82$qil@search01.news.aol.com> <1994Aug09.223712.9734@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <32nrsc$5oo@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <32nrsc$5oo@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
(Richard Schultz) wrote:
> (text deleted)
> By the way, I am still waiting for Mr. Raven to produce his one best
> piece of evidence that World War II occurred.
>
> Richard Schultz
I would be happy to, just as soon as I finish with the discussion in which
I have stated an interest. For now, this is off-topic.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14980 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A partial answer for Greg Raven (Auschwitz figures)
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 20:44:58 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 33
Message-ID:
References: <1994Jul25.020700.2018@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>
> > Those who do not wish to become bogged down in the
> > numbers game over "Holocaust" "victims" should simply come clean on the
> > matter and move on to something that can be proven/supported with evidence.
>
> Evidence...you mean like the ten documents we provided for you over three
> months ago, each of which demonstrates the reality of the Holocaust,
> none of which you have yet addressed?
> --
> Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
> I speak for no one but myself.
Yes, ten, when I asked for one or two. And when I asked (about each
document I saw) whether this was the best evidence, I never received a
response in the affirmative. As soon as you and others make up your minds
about what you yourselves consider to be the best evidence, we can continue
the discussion. It's only been about four months since I first stated my
desire to discuss the evidence, one piece at a time. If, as is commonly
stated, there exists a mountain of evidence to support claims that the
Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate Jews in gas chambers, then
certainly it should take less than four months to present either the
evidence or a reference to same.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14981 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Whiteway's story
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 20:48:33 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 24
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> ...ah, what's the use. You could dump a truckload of documents in these
> guys laps, show them confessions and testimonies and interviews and
> court transcripts, and there would never be enough "proof" for them.
I am not asking for a truckload of documents. In fact, I am asking for one,
or two if you absolutely must. However, I would prefer one, as it makes the
ensuing discussion much more manageable.
By the way, thank you for admitting that there is no direct evidence of the
existence of the gas chambers. This points up my argument that the
so-called Holocaust gas chambers are unique in that their existence can
only be shown through testimonies, interviews, "confessions," etc.
Virtually every other event in western history is accompanied by actual
tangible, contemporaneous evidence.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14982 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Whiteway's story
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 20:55:02 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 30
Message-ID:
References: <3220rd$29s@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:
> (text deleted)
> Apparently the Nazis, specifically Himmler, were worried about losing
> Poland and thus having evidence of this mass murder in the hands of
> whoever pushed them out, probably the Soviets.
>
> Would they exhibit the same concern regarding locations in the
> Altreich?
>
> Apparently not. And does this make sense? I think so, if the Allies
> were in Munich there really wouldn't be much point in hiding anything,
> the game was over.
Let me get this straight: The Nazis destroyed the functioning gas chambers,
that is, the ones that were killing the Jews they had been ordered from on
high to kill, but they left intact gas chambers that had never been used,
even though there was a policy of exterminating all Jews?
This is incredible on the face of it. But if by some stretch of the
imagination it is correct, then are you saying that the other gas chambers
in the Soviet over-run territories were similarly destroyed, or is there
yet another special case for them?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14983 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Whiteway's story
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 20:58:33 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 63
Message-ID:
References: <32g8lc$2mb@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA> <32grsi$68h@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <32offf$irl@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <32offf$irl@access1.digex.net>, mstein@access1.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:
> (text deleted)
> Quite a breathtaking statement from Greg Raven, master of misleading
> paraphrases. Care to discuss p. 181 of Pressac yet, where your distortion
> of Pressac's text makes your blatant distortion of the Vanity Fair article
> look like a minor misunderstanding by comparison?
Here again is the text of the Vanity Fair article in question. Where have I
misrepresented it? I think you will find that your source (Jamie McCarthy?)
is the one who did the misrepresentation:
Whose History Is It?
Christopher Hitchens
Vanity Fair, December 1993
pages 110-118
(page 117)
... The revisionists sent me an article by a Frenchman named Robert
Faurisson, which claimed that Rudolf Hoess, one of the commandants of
Auschwitz, had been tortured by the British into confessing to a fantastic
and unbelievable number of murders. RI declare herewith under oath that in
the years 1941 to 1943, during my tenure in office as commandant of
Auschwitz Concentration Camp, 2 million Jews were put to death by gassing
and 1/2 million by other means.S This statement, specially mounted and
reproduced, is an important exhibit at the Holocaust Memorial.
I then got in touch with Lipstadt and Browning for their responses, which
were surprising: RHoess was always a very weak and confused witness,S said
Browning, who has been an expert witness at trials involving Auschwitz.
RThe revisionists use him all the time for this reason, in order to try and
discredit the memory of Auschwitz as a whole.S And Professor Lipstadt
directed me to page 188 of her book, which is quite a page. It says that
the stories about the Nazis making Jews into soap are entirely untrue, and
it also says that while the memorial stone at Auschwitz itself lists the
number of victims -- Jews and non-Jews -- at 4 million, the truer figure is
somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million. Since Hoess was the commandant of the
place for only part of its existence, this means that -- according to the
counter-revisionists -- an important piece of evidence in the Holocaust
Memorial is not reliable. A vertiginous sensation if you like.
RItUs the same with the soap story,S said Lipstadt. RI get protests from
survivors, saying that I shouldnUt admit itUs not true, because it gives
ammunition to the enemy. But IUm only interested in getting at the truth.S
An old-fashioned concept.
> (text deleted)
> What about the Franke-Gricksch report? So far Fritz Berg's best
> evidence that it's a fake seems to be that the person who found it - an
> American, by the way, not a Russian - has a last name which *might* be
> Jewish. Is that your best evidence as well?
Please tell me that you feel the Franke-Gricksch Report is your idea of the
best evidence that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate Jews in gas
chambers. Please! I love talking about the F-G Report, as anyone who
followed my GEnie debate on this topic a couple of years ago can tell you.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14984 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Whiteway's story
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 21:02:51 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 31
Message-ID:
References: <3220rd$29s@search01.news.aol.com> <32ojai$8fi@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <32ojai$8fi@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> It seems more and more that Jamie McCarthy and Ken McVay were right;
> the "revisionist scholars" are launching a war of attrition. Raven
> thinks that if he repeats his lies again and again and again, people
> will tire of responding to them.
>
> There were gas chambers in the "old Reich", both in the Euthanasia
> institutions and in some of the concentration camps. I posted a summary
> published by the German "Institute for Contemporary History" about
> them. It is true that many more people were gassed in the massive
> death camps in the East than in the "old reich".
So, then, you are contending that the euthanasia program was actually a
Nazi plan to exterminate Jews in homicidal gas chambers? That is the topic
at hand, after all, so for you to mention this must mean that you think it
has some value. Are you now saying that the Nazi euthanasia program was
part of the Nazi plan to exterminate Jews in homicidal gas chambers?
If you choose to respond to this, and you choose to cite documents, please
be careful to include the actual source of the citation. I had no luck
whatsoever locating the last two pieces of so-called evidence you claimed
to have ... they simply did not exist in the sources to which you referred.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14985 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Whiteway's story
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 21:06:00 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 24
Message-ID:
References: <32g8lc$2mb@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA> <32grsi$68h@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <32ojp7$8nm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article <32ojp7$8nm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> Greg Raven wrote:
>
> # There are no authentic documents, buildings, etc. there for researchers to
> # examine. About the closest there is is a "reconstructed" gas chamber, for
> # which there are no original plans to show why it was "reconstructed" in its
> # current manner.
>
> This is not true, as documents like that are posted here all the time.
> In addition, there are testimonies.
You know of an original plan for a gas chamber in the krema of Auschwitz I?
Please either produce it, or tell me what your source is so I can look for
myself. Even the Auschwitz Museum does not have such a document, and it has
never appeared in any of Pressac's works, either.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14987 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Raven waffling
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 21:07:53 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 57
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>
> > dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
> >
> > > Mark, in partial response to your question, the answer IMHO is very
> > > simple - nobody's perfect.
> > >
> > > It was impossible to destroy all traces of the Nazi genocide. Even
> > > more so when Germany was taking a horrible beating on all fronts and
> > > subject to devastating bombing raids.
> >
> > This is an extremely misleading response. Apparently, the Nazis were able
> > to destroy all traces of the so-called gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> > There are no authentic documents, buildings, etc. there for researchers to
> > examine. About the closest there is is a "reconstructed" gas chamber, for
> > which there are no original plans to show why it was "reconstructed" in its
> > current manner.
>
> Interesting admission, Mr. Raven.
>
> We can deal with the truth or falsity of this statement later.
>
> But until then, it sure looks like you've just said that the so-called
> "Leuchter Report" is totally invalid. After all, what would be the
> usefulness of taking forensic samples of the walls of a _reconstruction_
> of a gas chamber? What could we possibly learn from having them
> analyzed?
>
> Do I misunderstand, Mr. Raven? Or have you, in your above paragraph,
> jettisoned one of the revisionists' major claims?
Fred Leuchter simply wanted to cover all the bases. If he had not taken
samples for analyzation, what would his critics have said then?
But, typically, your statement misses the points. The points are 1) there
is no evidence that the room now presented to tourists as a gas chamber at
the Stammlager was ever a gas chamber, 2) there are no documents to support
the "reconstruction" undertaken after the war (that is, how could it have
been "returned" to some previous condition without some indication of what
that condition was?), and 3) even in its current, "reconstructed" state, it
could not have functioned as a homicidal gas chamber. As Fred Leuchter
himself has stated, the tests for traces of Zyklon B usage are only maybe
10 percent of argument against this room (and others) having been used as a
homicidal gas chamber.
However, you seem to be agreeing that the so-called gas chamber now shown
to tourists is a reconstruction. Is that truly your position?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14988 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interrogation of Reinhard Wachman (2)
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 21:16:02 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article <32ol5e$9ta@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
wrote:
> Greg Raven wrote:
>
> # I suppose one could go through this
> # line by line, but the simple fact that the section of Treblinka now
> # referred to as the "death camp" was not rectilinear at all should pretty
> # much handle this "testimony."
>
> Wasn't the ex-guard talking about the complete camp? In Arad's
> book it seems like a rectangle with watchtowers at the corners,
> like he decribed it.
Arad is wrong about the shape of the camp, as he is about many other
things.
>
> # The Volume 12 number 2 issue of the Journal
> # of Historical Review shows not only the true lay-out of this camp, but also
> # Allied aerial photos that clearly show it not to be rectilinear.
>
> When were these photos taken? Any chance we'll hear an answer to this
> simple question?
>
> When were these photos taken?
These photos were taken September 1944, according to the National Archives.
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14989 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads and Archaeological Fakes
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 21:20:45 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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Are you saying that you believe the "human soap" stories? Are you saying
that it is possible to prove a negative? Are you saying that should I chose
to ask Deborah Lipstadt about her statement that these stories were looked
into and then discounted, that she would answer me? Are you serious?
--
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping
Article 14990 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Whiteway's story
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Mon, 15 Aug 1994 20:55:02 -0800
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3220rd$29s@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 04:48:09 GMT
Lines: 85
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Let me get this straight:
It feels to me like you are completely incapable of getting anything
straight. And I mean that with the utmost sincerity. I taught college
for over a decade and never have I ran into this kind of willful
bone-headed obstinancy even from the most nihilistic, surly
adolescent. It's incredible, it really is.
>The Nazis destroyed the functioning gas chambers,
>that is, the ones that were killing the Jews they had been ordered from on
>high to kill, but they left intact gas chambers that had never been used,
>even though there was a policy of exterminating all Jews?
Yes, exactly, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH THAT?
On retreat (or anticipating a retreat) from Poland they destroyed
evidence, probably in the hope that they could broker peace for a Nazi
Germany. They didn't succeed in destroying every last bit of it, and
what they didn't destroy remains as part of the evidence.
They weren't *retreating* from Munich anymore (the general location of
Dachau), they were *defeated* at that point, there was no where to
retreat to. What is the point of cleaning up the evidence? There was
hardly anyone or any organization left to organize any such clean-up
by the time this became inevitable and, I suspect, the Nazis in high
command had other things on their minds by spring 1945, those that had
a mind left.
Even Auschwitz wasn't fully dismantled until January 1945. The war
ended in April 1945, only several weeks later.
I fail to see where you are having so much trouble with
this. Particularly when all you have to say is that you find it
implausible. Implausible? SO WHAT? I find it implausible that the
Japanese allied themselves with the Germans in a war against much of
the rest of the world. Does that mean it didn't happen? If I find that
implausible perhaps that's just an indication of my own lack of
understanding of what went on, I don't think I'd jump to the
conclusion that therefore the Germans never allied themselves with the
Japanese because I find it implausible.
>This is incredible on the face of it.
Why? Give us a hint, why do you find it incredible? It seems
completely reasonable to me.
What exactly do you find implausible or incredible?
That the Nazis destroyed Auschwitz-Birkenau in the period November
1944-January 1945? Is that what you're having a problem with?
It was destroyed, right? It was in ruins when the Allies entered it.
Who destroyed it? Martians? Give us a hint about what you believe
occurred. Or was it not destroyed when the Allies entered? What? What
is it you believe really happened?
>But if by some stretch of the
>imagination it is correct, then are you saying that the other gas chambers
>in the Soviet over-run territories were similarly destroyed, or is there
>yet another special case for them?
If Himmler ordered evidence of the extermination program destroyed in
Auschwitz-Birkenau it is not a huge stretch to assume he ordered it
destroyed all over Poland etc.
Otherwise why bother? Or do you deny he ordered this to happen?
There's nothing to grasp onto here, it's impossible to even tell what
it is you're objecting to. You seem to sort of repeat what I say and
then just conclude it's incredible, and that's that.
Tell us your version of the history. Let's hold on the gas chambers
per se for a moment, were the facilities at the major camps in Poland
apparently destroyed by the Nazis, or were they found intact, or what?
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 14994 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Whiteway's story
Date: 16 Aug 1994 07:45:37 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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References: <32ojai$8fi@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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Greg Raven wrote:
# So, then, you are contending that the euthanasia program was actually a
# Nazi plan to exterminate Jews in homicidal gas chambers?
No. It was a plan to exterminate Germans who were considered useless
to the Nazi regime. Mainly mentally retarded and insane. However,
many of those who participated in this murderous operation later
took part in running the death camps.
# That is the topic
# at hand, after all,
Mr. Raven should understand that he does not dictate the topic at
hand.
# I had no luck
# whatsoever locating the last two pieces of so-called evidence you claimed
# to have ... they simply did not exist in the sources to which you referred.
Which evidence - is it so difficult to write it down? If Raven will
post it, I'll recheck. I may have got a page number wrong, though I
doubt it. Anyway, I can't check if there is no reference.
-Danny Keren.
Article 14995 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dawidowicz on Irving's fraud
Date: 16 Aug 1994 07:49:56 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <32pr34$7sh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <326ajs$2r7@agate.berkeley.edu>