BRADEN: --I've, I've chatted and, and even though, as much as I chatted,

just kind of chatted to test the tape recording. I can never think ofany--reporter, I can never think of anything to say.

FOSL: Well, this is good.

[Pause in recording.]

FOSL: --is fine.

BRADEN: What I was saying--I was trying to think of what if I were

sitting down to write about my own life, that I'd have thought that I,I would not be inclined just to write, uh, what I consider a straightautobiography. I was born such and such a time and my parents were soand so. I mean, not that they're all that dry, but um, usually peopledo a chronological sort of thing and maybe they're some that don't. Ishould--maybe you know some that I could look at and get some ideas.Anyway, that wouldn't be my inclination because I wouldn't-- I don'tthink that just the bare facts of my life are that interesting, firstoff. And, and what I would be interested in trying to do some time1:00that I--whether you and I were doing it together or not, I'd like atsome point, before I'm too old and addled in my mind, or die, to try toexamine certain things that I thought some about, through the prism ofmy own life. Um, and that I'm not totally clear on what I want to say,but I find that I--my thoughts get clarified as I put things on paper,really. I don't know if I could do it, a little. But, um, and thatwould be useful for me. And I have a feeling that if I were writingit--thinking in terms of that for a while, because I'm sure it wouldwork out differently if I were doing it with somebody else. If I werewriting it, I would probably just try and write without shaping it andthen see what I had, and then go back and totally rewrite to somewhat2:00shape it. Which is the way I tend to write anyway.

on newspapers to do this. I can write something to an exact lengthalmost to the word. Sometimes you to do that for The Louisville Times,which had a very strict space limitations. And we had an editor thatwas-- when he said two hundred and fifty words, he meant two hundredand fifty words. He did not mean 251.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: Or 249, for that matter and I learned to do that. So, I can do

that. I can sit down, and like if you said you want five hundred wordson something, I know that's two pages type written, double spaced andI can pretty much write that the first time. But that's not the wayI'd rather write. So often, even if I'm writing an article, I'll justsit down and I'll have a general idea of what I want to say first andthat's sort of an outline in my mind, but I'll just write it and it'llprobably end up being twice as long as I want it to be or it's supposed3:00to be, or even that I think is effective. And then I go back andcut it, or condense parts, and put it together, and then I can alwayssqueez-, what I call squeeze words out which I think improves thingswithout cutting out any hunk of something. I always say you can squeezefifty words out of every page without losing anything, and reallyimproving, a lot of times. So, I'll do that. And um--then that'sone reason when I ever, I don't have time to do it much anymore. Butpeople used to say, and still do it sometimes, that I wrote the longestletters of anybody they knew of, because I write letters like I talk.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: I think. I mean, you know, I don't shape it, like I just write

like I talk. And--but that's not the style I write in if I'm writingfor publication. It's a totally different sort of thought process.Now, when I wrote The Wall Between, I had never tried to write a bookbefore. And, um, I remember I talked to a guy--Dan Gillmor, who was4:00interested in our case, he wrote a book himself about the witch-hunt.Um, Fear, The Accuser, that's one, that's on the fifties witch-hunts.He was very interested. In fact, he had suggested that Carl and Iwrite a book together. Carl wasn't very inclined to do it, never hadtime so he, so it turned out I did it. But, um, about the case. Andhe--I talked to him before, really, I started writing it. He said,"Just start write down the story. Write down everything, and putin everything, but the kitchen sink. Because you leave out anythingon the first go around, you're self-censoring what might be the mostimportant thing. Then go back and cut it." And I did. I wrote--thatthing was probably twice as long originally as it came out in thebook. And I totally rewrote it, then I put it all down, and then Itotally rewrote it once and condensed a lot, and so it collapsed alot at the end. I think what was one chapter toward the end of sortof a, not so much--well, partly analysis and observation--was threeor four chapters, and I condensed it into one chapter. And, um, I5:00may have rewritten it a third time to sort of refine it more. ThenI worked on with that great editor I was telling you about yesterdaythat went over it word by word. That was the fun part, 'cause by thattime the hard work was done. You know, it was just kind of going overit. Um, so anyway that is, so I'm trying to think how--what I thinkI would want to do if I were doing it myself you see would be to dosomething like that. Just to write down how these questions that Ithought some about how they looked to me and to see how it sort ofbegins to shape in my own mind as I get it on paper, and then just sortof see what I have that I think is--has some universal application,which I think some of it, a lot of it does. And the kind of, the way,the, the point from which I want to come at it, um, is sort of thestarting point, but there are other important points too. And that's6:00what I was trying to remember before you turned the tape recorder onthat exactly what Aubrey Williams said one time--I don't think I'llremember his exact words. But it was the id-, but it was something tothe effect that he said, "You know, I've seen this whole issue of racebreak the hearts of so many white people in the South." And his sortof point was and I don't know why he was saying it, except he tendedto get dismal at times, was that, "I don't want to break your hearteither." But that was a ridiculous point. But, it--and I think that'strue. I think that that, that the, that the issue of race has totallyshaped our li-, our lives, everybody's life whether they realize itor not. In the South, and actually in the whole country. And I thinkthat the only difference in the way with somebody like me is that Ibegin to realize that consciously, fairly young in my life, as a young7:00adult when I could begin to deal with it somewhat consciously--butit was shaping my life long before that. And I think that it--and itshaped everybody's life in rather obvious ways when I was growing upbecause of the obvious nature of segregation and so forth. I thinkit shapes everybody's life today. And, um, in everything, in personalrelationships, in social relationships, in economics, and everything.And, and I guess the other thing I think and this is kind of thing Iwanna really sort of think through as to what this means, um, I thinkthat probably within my lifetime, or within any one lifetime, there'sno real solution to the question. Um, and--that it can create, it8:00creates a lot of havoc in everybody's life. Um, and I think the, Ithink anything that I would want to write about in my life, I wouldwant the main message of it to be positive, which isn't being, I don'tthink being a Pollyanna, or just trying to do that for effect, to me itis positive. I feel like, that I've lived a positive life within theframework that the society gave me, and what was possible in my, in theperiod of history I lived in.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: But that doesn't mean that I haven't had a lot of problems.

And that there haven't been a lot of problems created because of theunresolved issue of race. And that, um, and I think the way that I'vetried to deal with that and live in this dilemma that exists because9:00of race and racism, um, is the best way to live. And for me, it's beena happy way to live. So, I mean, in general, I'm positive about it,but I don't think we've solved the problems. And I think it's, it's,there's been a great many problems in my life, which I take as justpart of living in part of this, the period of history I live in. ButI think that, um, as I say, I don't--I think there's a universality tothat. 'Cause I think it affects everybody of all colors, really. Butit affects whites in different ways obviously from the way it affectsblacks. And it certainly shapes the lives of blacks and other ethnicgroups which I always did tend to leave out. 'Cause I don't think thatI -----------(??) so black and white, which of course, it isn't anymore.But, um, for us, for my generation, it wasn't for the South, it has10:00been pretty much that. And, I think any black person who's honest hasto say that no matter what he or she does, that the basic things thatshapes his or her existence is the fact that he or she is black, andthat's all there is to it. There's just no way of ever getting aroundit, I don't think. But I think that's true for those others that arewhites, too. There's no way of getting away from the fact of how thisshapes everything. So, I would want to look at that as it's affectedmy life, and the way I try to deal with it. That's, that's onequestion. And I think that's the basic question. But, and the otherquestion--well, there are a couple, two or three others, actually, thatI'd want to look at, would be, um, the question of class.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: Because--and the more I thought about my own life, and the

conflicts and the contradictions and so forth in recent years, themore important that has seemed to me. Although I still think race11:00is the basic thing, and I can theorize as well as anybody else aboutthe intersection of race and class which I, I don't think its race orclass and that sort of thing. I would, had--I wouldn't have if I werewriting something, a desire to get into a lot of theory about race andclass, but they do intersect. But the class division is a chasm. It'san absolute chasm. And I thought about that some, reading Sally'sbook, um, and I'm not sure if she braves that one yet. But thinkthat--you can see, and that's why I want to read it more carefully--thestruggle she went through to break out of the prison, of in her cl-,case, of class, and wealth, and power, and race. All of them. And Ican empathize with part-, of class and race--I never had the wealth,I never had the power. I mean, I don't think we had the kind of powerhers did. But, but I'm not sure she totally understands that. Um,12:00which I would need to deal with her in my book. But it's kind of beeninteresting to me, because she sees everything through the prism offeminism. And she does see the class differences, and she certainlysees the race differences, but she mainly sees feminism, which I, I, Idon't think is the key, although it's important. But I'm not sure shereally sees the class thing and I, come back to that, and give you anexample. But, um, but I don't, it's, it is such a chasm in terms of,if you're, if you are born into a privileged class that there are justassumptions that you have from the time before memory, really that arevery difficult to break away from. And, um, and create great divisionsamong people. Um, and, and so that I think that the great--the major13:00kinds of decisions that I made in my life young were certainly that Ihad to oppose the system of segregation and the racial patterns of theSouth. But in a sense, I think, in a way the more emotional decisionwas switching my class allegiance. And that was a big, big step. Andif you, and was what created the chasm between my parents and me. Andthey never really understood that, I don't think. My own children--

FOSL: Pah.

BRADEN: --understood it. What's the matter?

FOSL: There's another cat out there.

BRADEN: Oh. Yeah.

FOSL: I just want to be sure it wasn't in the truck.

BRADEN: Yeah, well don't let it in. Can it get in? Is there enough

crack?

FOSL: It would really have to push at this door, in which case, you know.

BRADEN: I wonder which cat it is. Maybe it's the one she got in the

fight with. But except we don't think it was ----------(??). But14:00I mean just as sort of an example of what I mean, um, I think one ofthe, one of, one of the sources, maybe one of the main sources of theproblems that my children had--(coughs)--because I did try to keep inclose touch with my parents. You know, I didn't cut off connectionswith them. And, and they loved their grandchildren. So, so mychildren visited them very often. And were probably closer to themthan grandchildren often are to grandparents. They would go for longvisits and stuff like that.

FOSL: And then lived with them for almost a year during that first--

BRADEN: But even after that, they come for long visits in the summer

or at Christmastime, and not every year for Christmas, but they wouldgo during the holiday. They were just, and Jimmy, and Anita, and thenBeth. And my parents were wild about them and all that. Um, so theywere probably closer than most grandparents. And so, in a way, they15:00were constantly moving back and forth between two worlds. But theydidn't, of course, know that. I mean, they wouldn't have articulatedit that way. And the poles of those two worlds I think were--I can, Ican see looking back on it, were a real strain on those kids, althoughthey, and they were two young to understand it. And the thing, andmy, uh, my parents I don't think ever tried to influence them againstmy ideas or stuff like that. It wasn't at that level. It was justtwo different worlds. And I don't think, and, and I knew they weredifferent worlds, because I knew that the, the kind of very sharp breakthat I had to make psychologically with that world that I came from.And I remember when I told my parents that I was going to marry Carl,and you know, that there was more than just getting married, um, itwas that I was really giving up their world. And they knew somethinghad happened. I mean, they knew it was more than just a marriage16:00they didn't approve of. Although I don't think they could have reallyarticulated it or, maybe in their case, after what it was. But, um,and I remember we were--they were up here for something, and we weregoing out to Eminence which was a little town out here where my motherwas born and lived till she was five, and where I used to spend summerswhen--maybe my grandmother, yeah, my grandmother was still living outthere. But we were riding around out in Henry County or Shelby Countyor something and I told them I was going to marry Carl. But beforeI even got to Carl, I told them I really had to give up the worldthey lived in and I could, I would go into that more, 'cause it was apainful scene. But, but it was a major sort of thing--they naturallydidn't approve of Carl. Because he--but see, they would have acceptedit more, I think if, um, I mean Carl they would not have seen underany circumstances as socially acceptable. That he didn't come from the17:00class that was socially acceptable. He didn't live in the part of townthat was socially acceptable and so forth and so on. But they couldhave gone along with that if Carl had wanted to get into that.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: And they were and my parents were snobs. But everybody is that

grows up in that sort of thing maybe, lived and died snobs. My mothermore than--Sallie Bingham is a snob too, that's one of the problems.She probably will never get over that. I'll give you some examples.Because that's peo-, the way they grew up. Um, but and well they haddefinite ideas about, you know, what's done and what isn't, and whoyou associated with and who you don't--I remember that um, I think Imentioned that in that interview with Sue Thrasher. Because I knowthat was the main thing in the interview that interested Virginia Durr.Virginia is real interested in the class thing, but see Virginia neverreally broke her class ties either. Um, she married an acceptable manshe says in her book. She says, "That she'd made a good marriage," or----------(??).

FOSL: Yep.

BRADEN: But from the viewpoint of her family, and so forth and so on.

Um, but--I know of a perfectly nice girl and quite white, that Mother18:00didn't want me to associate with in Anniston and she didn't live buta block from me--so it wasn't even like a part of town--but our streetwas, I guess, was a little more respectable, and she lived about ablock down the other way. But she-- her family was just not sociallyacceptable. And we were in, in, you know, like fifth or sixth grademaybe or something, but that I would not be socially what I should beas I grew up if I associated with people like that. Wasn't a thingwrong with the little girl. I mean, it wasn't even anything that she'ddone. Just that she wasn't in the right social class, her family. So,they knew exactly who was and who wasn't. But one of--and I said theywere snobs and everybody in that milieu is, because one thing I knowmy mother and father have always said that, "A man could always riseabove his social origins, but a woman couldn't." Or it was much moredifficult. Well, I think it was really impossible for a woman to, buta man could. I guess because he could get out and make money--they19:00didn't say why, but a man could. So, they could've, probably wouldn'thave particularly liked it. I know that there was a guy I thought Iwas in love with.

FOSL: Oh, that was in the--

BRADEN: In college.

FOSL: Oh, no, no, no, this. I was thinking of later. Sorry.

BRADEN: Um, he, um, who was there at Fort McClellan during--see the war

was going on then. Nice guy. I don't know whatever became of him. Hewas a champion tennis player, and he taught me to play tennis or I gotinterested in tennis, I didn't hit very good. And he was from Chicago,and they, and I, they thought I was pretty seriously interested in him.And I did too, I guess, but I wasn't really seriously interested anyman at that point. As soon as I got back to college, I never foundtime to write to him and he got tired of that. But, um, that summer,it was, you know, kind of men going off to war and things, ----------(??) but, but I think Mother and Daddy asked some people in Chicagoabout him, found out he came from, um, but, I think whoever they asked,20:00um, man said, "Was just, uh, poor as dirt these people, but they,they--the boys had really worked to better themselves and so forth,and he's a fine young man." So that kind of bothered 'em, they wouldn'tlike, you know, coming from a family that was poor as dirt. But he wasvery ambitious and I think he did--I, I, I've often wondered what didhappen to him. I think he did probably did go onto greater things, so.Uh, so, you know, they could have lived with that. The worst part ofit was that, I mean, the part that--and they really couldn't comprehendthat made it quite different was that Carl did not want to, quote, riseabove his background. And didn't want to live in their world and didn'twant to be successful in their world. They--both, they both couldn'tcomprehend that and they were threatened by it. And, and althoughtoward the end of their lives, and toward the end of Carl's life, theywere very fond of Carl, because Carl was nice to them. He was--theycould communicate with him at that stage better than they could withme, sort of. And Carl would stop by and talk to them and he was nice.21:00You know, so they--at that level, they, that was all right. But, butit was the thing that--I'm just going into all of this now, but I knewwhat a significant step this was that I was taking. I was leavingthat world. And the thing is that, as I say, I think my childrencould never to this day, don't understand it. I know even when, itdoesn't much matter in a way with their grandparents now, becausethey're dead. But, like, Beth wanted so bad to tell her grandmotherabout Alice. And she just could not believe that her grandmotherwouldn't be thrilled that this little, that she had this little great-granddaughter, born on her birthday--which she was. She was born onher mother's birthday, September 27th. And--we never did, becauseand Mother died without knowing about Alice. Later, we did tell myfather, uh, Beth did, but we all--because Jim got all determined that22:00we ought to, and he that we just ought tell him. That we--none of uswould wanna get old and nobody not tell us something to protect us andall that kind of thing. And it turned out real well with my father,but I don't think it would have with my mother. I think it would havebeen different because Mother, um, the--and one reason we didn't seeit was that, by that time my mother and father were so elderly anywayit was--they lived there next door in an attachment onto a house theybuilt onto my brother's, sister's, my sister-in-law's house. And theyhad asked them to come over there and wanted them there. But it wasgetting to be a real burden on them. It wasn't when they first came,but because of their age and people get very demanding when they getold and that sort of thing and my sister-in-law's sort of high-strunganyway, and she just didn't want any--she knew about it, but she didn'twant any crisis with them so she didn't really want us to tell him23:00for that reason. And I didn't want to get into a whole thing withher about it, but I think the thing was that Beth was so wistful aboutit, because she always felt like she wanted her grandmother, and shewas sure her grandmother would approve, and I think she, and she couldjust not comprehend and I don't probably and I'm sure doesn't to thisday. That there was no bridge between those two worlds. And it--hergrandmother would not approve and wouldn't be happy about it. And, youknow, if that, if her grandmother had been younger, we'd had to, butshe just didn't know, she didn't understand that difference. Althoughthat difference, I think tugged at her and still does, all of her life

FOSL: 'Cause you think--well, do you think that she felt that she was

the bridge, just a little? I mean--

BRADEN: No. I think that she just felt like, you know, that that, my

grandmother loves me. She ought to be happy that I'm having the babythat was born on her birthday. She's got a little great-granddaughtershe'd like to know about that, just like it was normal relations.Well, it's not normal relations. It was the whole class chasm inbetween because my mother and she tried to talk to Mother once about24:00babies out of wedlock. See, Mother would have, in the first place--theinterracial nature of the baby would have bothered her but she wouldhave been more bothered about the out of wedlock. Not that it wasbecause, you know, that's a disturbing thing, or how you going totake care of a child, it's just not respectable to have a baby out ofwedlock. And that's all there is to it. There is just some things youdo, and some things you don't. And it intersects with the race thingbecause and she said--and Mother got kind of careful about her raciallanguage. In fact, she was even careful about it, she, she changedher racial views, at least at the verbal level, a little bit more thanmy father did until the very end of his life. He, you know, he, he,he--that was sort of a miracle. He really sort of accepted little, um,Alice. He came over here to see her. And he knew about the marriage,and he knew about little Henry. He never met little Henry, but he knewabout him.

FOSL: Hmm.

BRADEN: But, um, but he was so old, and he was, I think, you know,

a lot of those things didn't matter anymore. But, but Mother would25:00slip into real racist sort of things and comments. And she, they,she had a black woman kind of taking care of her who was a nice woman,apolitical, but quite modern in that she's, but who was sort of anurse's aide, possibly, Mother broke her hip about two years beforeshe died, and she never could really totally take care of herself afterthat. So, this woman, who had been a nurse's aide in a hospital came,and came every day and she adored her, and she was very, and you know,there was a lot of, you know, Mother and Daddy had never had a blackperson sit at the table with them. But that changed, she did. Butshe was of course, still a servant. She was more like a nurse than amaid. But, and she was a nurse, but a companion too. And Mother wasso lonely, I think. And Mother loved to visit and talk with people,and in old age, And in old age, she didn't have that as much. So, shereally adored Sylvia. But, um, I think Sylvia overheard this. Sylviawas very broad-minded and she'd forgive, but, um, I'm trying to thinkwhere I would heard this, whether Sylvia told me--(pause)--maybe I26:00heard it Beth, or maybe Beverly overhead--Beverly is my sister-in-law--heard it. But Beth was over there visiting at some point, and itmay have been when she was pregnant--but, before, she didn't look verypregnant yet or something and they didn't know it, but she was tryingto talk to, sort of feel Neeno, she called her, out on babies beingborn out of wedlock or something. And, and had asked her grandmotherwhether, maybe I guess, whether it was all right sometimes or somethinglike that, and she--her grandmother just said, I don't know whethershe said, "That's what niggers do, or what colored people do," buta very derogatory and she didn't use the word nigger ordinarily, butshe sort of slipped into it at that point. In other words, this isan unrespectable thing to do, it's kind of thing black people do, youknow, and it is also unrespectable. And, and, you know, I don't thinkshe, that, that--so it, but in a sense, what I'm saying is that I think27:00the chasm, that the chasm of class in some ways is harder to bridgethan other groups (??). And, I don't think Jim understood that either,how, why we couldn't all be one happy family together. But--and thedifferent values. Your battery's up.

[Pause in recording.]

BRADEN: Is it on? Anyway, the whole question of class I'd like to really

look at as it's affected my life, and if it's related to race. ButI think it's a great chasm, and I think that when people do try toswitch their class allegiance, now I mention that, you know, in thereview of the O'Connor book about Jessie. And she apparently did itfairly easy. But that was partly because her family was really partof a radical tradition that already identified at least in thinkingwith the working class. And Jessie never particularly changed her28:00lifestyle. She may have for a little while, but she, you know, um,but, and I just think it's a, it's a kind of an interesting, it's aninteresting thing in the way it's affected my life and my children'sand I think a lot of people. But I think there's a, in there's a wholething, um, and I do think that that, to that extent I'm a Marxist andI think the class struggle is a moving force in history and so forth,there are very distinct classes. And people may not talk in thoseterms, but they know. And especially, of course the people who tellyou that there's no class struggle are the people in the upper classes.They never think there is, they know it too, but they don't want toadmit. But people who are not in the upper classes know there's adifference. But, anyway, as that, I, I think the whole thing--the29:00way that it affects people at social justice movements and how youcan, um, really identify with a class that's not your class of origin,um, is difficult. And a lot of people are never able to do it, and Ithink it affects what they do. But it certainly affects our personallives more than people normally admit it. And, um, and I don't exactlyknow what I'm trying to prove by all that, although I think I wouldthink it maybe since I went along and what particularly, any there'sno particular answer to it, except, I guess that's why it's a society,I think it's possible. But, um, it's just, it's, to me it's, it,exploring that is, along with the race issue would be important, in,aspect of my life. And there are a lot of things in that, in terms of,you know, and the people, the kind of prison in the way people live in,30:00who are born into one place and always stay there and how little theyknow. I think--I got back to Anniston every once in a while and I seesome of my old friends there, and they kind of like to see me becauseI'm somebody kind of now--I'm not quite the pariah I was I guess there.Well, I never was there. They always continued to like me. But I'msort of interesting too, because I'm different. And they don't quiteknow what I do or anything, and I, jus-, how I, how insulated theyare. These are intelligent women that I, was close to growing up. Andthat I, I guess the last time I was there, was at the time my fath-, amemorial for my father. I believe I saw some friends and some of the--and there was a young woman there that I, I kind of got to know, she'syounger than I am. She wasn't, she's a middle generation between meand my children. But who was the daughter of a very close friend of mymother's who's really and went and lived in New York for years and then31:00came back there. And she's a writer and she's written some fairly goodstuff. She had--one book she'd written got published, and, uh, she'sworking on a novel--[recording error]--she likes to talk with me 'causeI'm somebody different that came from Anniston and stuff like that.Um, but I don't think she can comprehend this difference, and they'vealways--when I go back, they're kind of, some of them--you better putyour coat on if you're going out--proud to show me what's changed aboutAnniston. I was there one summer and they--the, Anniston had--it'smoved to Montgomery I think now. They had Sha-, um, ShakespeareFestival every summer, that's on something cultural. And so theywere having Othello. And, um, and they thought it was quite progress,32:00you know, Anniston was coming out to see this black play--that playedOthello, and stuff. And it was. I mean it was different from whenI was there. But, you know, they see sort of--they can see someprogress on race, and I think--I've been always meant to look into itmore, that the, um, high school there is probably more integrated thanmost. Although they have a private academy in ----------(??). Butit's interesting, and I haven't seen--I'd like to look into that more,'cause I think that the high school, there's only one high school inAnniston, and every-, and it's black and white. But I think it's moreworking class white. And so there is more of a--and that of coursehappened as I think with the breakdown of the rigid segregation, isthat it has made class distinctions more evident. Because when I wasin high school there, um, even though my mother said that there werecertain people she didn't associate with, in a certain sense we allassociated together in high school and, and the most prestigious people33:00in high school were the football players who were not necessarily fromthe right side of the tracks, but we were all white. And the classlines did blur. And I suspect that is much less so now, because thepeople in the real upper classes there are people like my family whoweren't wealthy but were in the upper class--I think almost entirelygo to the private schools. Whereas it is more of a working class whitekids and the blacks going to school together, and apparently they'regetting along all right. I don't think they've ever had particulartrouble that in high school. And, so there's certain events in racialchanges there, at that level. And um, you know, I think there areinterracial councils and things like that. And maybe--I'm not sureabout elected office there. But the class distinctions are just rigid,and the class biases or class prisons like my old friends have, it'sjust blinded. They just, they really don't know what is going on. And34:00I was thinking that the last time I was there--it must have been from,at the time of my father's memorial, I guess, went out to their houseeither afterwards or before. Saw someone. And, they knew absolutelynothing about the Alabama New South Coalition, for example, which isone of the most important political movements in the country all around'em. And, you know, it's no fringe movement. And there's a chapter inCalhoun County which is Anniston. And I don't know who all is in it.It may--I guess well I think there's some other--now there is, there'ssome people--I really like to find out more about what's going on there--there's some people there in the freeze movement, they're bound to knowabout the Alabama New South. But my friends aren't. And they justhardly knew about it. I mean, it's just like it's a different worldgoing on, they're just insulated. But they don't think they are--theythink they're fairly cosmopolitan. Um, so, I think it's a terribleprison. I also think that the breaking away from it is a painful35:00process, a difficult process, and how do you do it? I was determinedto do it when I was young. And I, I think I was--it was made easier bythe fact that I would say I married into the working class basically,so I. But I was going to do it anyway. I was talking, before I knewI was in love with Carl and or realized he was in love with me--wellreally, I didn't think I was in love, I thought it was platonic. Um,I was planning to leave here and go somewhere else and just adopt anew identity sort of and get a job in a factory or something. And Iwasn't thinking about organizing, because I didn't know anything aboutorganizing, I wasn't a part of any organization. I wasn't, you know,going into a factory to organize, I wanted to number one prove that Icould work with my hands and not just my brain. And I was beginningto be quite successful at newspaper work and stuff like that. Um, butI also wanted to break that identity to the class I came from. And36:00I felt like I had to get totally away and be somebody else to do it.I thought that was the only way to do it. And maybe it would have.It would have been interesting if I had to do that. Maybe that wouldhave been, I don't know, an interesting thing. But Carl convinced me Icould stay right here. And, and I wanted to wanted to once I realizedthat I was in love with him. But I saw it, it was like going into adifferent world, which I partly did through him. And which, of course,I'd never planned to live through a man and I didn't, because I wasn'tgoing to get married, I had no intention on God's earth to gettingmarried. But, um, to a certain extent I did. But I was--because I,I did, I was, I, I learned a lot from him, but I was also dependenton him I guess in, for a long time in some ways for a perspective,which was a class struggle perspective. But, but I still have that,you know. I mean, I literally, when any issue comes up, it's allunconscious with me now. Well, which side of the class struggle is theright side of this issue. I mean, it's just automatic. Because that'swhat Carl always said. He'd always ask me. I'd tell him somebody I'd37:00met. "Well, which side of the class struggle is he on?" It was justnatural with him. And I, I read the newspaper that way, you know.Um, but that's, was an acquired side--characteristic with me. WhichI really got through him, that perspective. But, but I don't thinkanybody makes that break easily, and my point is that it creates--it,it, all sorts of turmoil in lives and that, and people often don'tunderstand why. But I think that along with race, is something I justwould like to look at more. And I'm just being pretty superficialabout it now. But that's one thing. Um, and--(pause)--well, I thinkthose are the two kind of main, you know, race and class, that I would38:00want to look at my experiences as to how this illuminates the situationfor other people, which I think applies not only in the South, and notonly in my generation, but, um, for this whole country. And also fornow it comes out in different ways. So those, you know, are the twothings. I think the thing that I would want to look at, um, now thethings I wouldn't particular-, that I, that I do not want to deal with--and you better turn the tape recorder off for a couple of things--

[Pause in recording.]

BRADEN: --in fact, you might want to look at it--in that, with that

little memo I wrote on the outline. I wrote a covering memo to, inlonghand and I'll show it to you, to the people on our committee I wassending that to. Um, on several things. Well, on a couple of things,because Pat Bryant who's worked with SOC down in Louisiana had just39:00done this big toxic march for us. I wanted to make sure we got intothis issue of the environment, because he's building coalitions, reallybroad coalitions around environmental issues. And so we were talkingabout having workshops on the issues that were issues in the thirties.You looking for your book? Any book will do.

FOSL: Well, I was thinking about it being over, well--

BRADEN: It's all right.

FOSL: Just let's keep a close eye on it.

BRADEN: Um, the, and we were kind of going over on the phone before

I'd sent him my outline about the issues that we have workshops on,some on the labor movement then and now, and racism then and now,and militarism, which of course was different then, too. And hesays, "What about the environment?" was he says, "There probably wassomething on the environment then." I said, "No, I don't think anybodyeven thought of the environment as an issue." I don't, in the thirties.I mean ----------(??) maybe some, uh, you know, what do you call it?Nature kind of people, but it was not, uh, well, it wasn't a problem,either. We didn't have all this dumping, and nuclear stuffs and toxics40:00and all that. Um, so anyway, in this memo I said that, um, that Ithought that--and I put that in the outline that--I told him where towork that was in the parts on the economic conditions and militarism.Because it was not an issue, because the people like the progressivesfor that period in the thirties felt that one of the ans-, felt thatone of the main answers to the South's problems was industrialization.Which it was in a way, but, that, but that you live and learn. Andwhat--that industrialization uncontrolled and without any checks forthe environment was now the point to where, so people can live oncancer alley and which is worse than my cigarette. With the chem-,uh, petro chemical industry is so big in Louisiana, where they had thismarch. And other places too. And the whole--and militarism, because41:00and the, and a lot of them felt, um, military bases in the South wereone of the answers, you know.

FOSL: Huh. I haven't read that.

BRADEN: Um, to economic development. And everybody thought that in World

War II. I mean everybody was, you know, which and it was a quote, goodwar, and all that. But, but the development of military bases in theSouth--well, there was always a fort in Anniston, Fort McClellan wasthere. And I don't know how widespread the whole, you know, the wholemilitary development had--it was not that great in the thirties, buta lot of it was in the South, even then. Oh, I need to say there wasa very militaristic tradition in the South. I think, you know, peoplealways went to military school, that's where you--boys went--

FOSL: Girls went there too--

BRADEN: Of the upper classes. And, um, but, and, um, you know, and

so I said, I just said to him that we need to work the environmentin to that too, because there again that, uh, in addition to every42:00other reason that we're opposed to militarism, the nuclear plants arethreatening everybody's life in South Carolina and those places. So--

FOSL: I just found the cat.

BRADEN: Cat? Oh, she's right in the ----------(??), she likes that

place. Uh, so I said, you know, the, so the people that founded theSouthern Conference were wrong on the environment. They just didn'tthink of it--that that had to be watched while they were hoping todevelop the South, but they were right on race. That they sensed thatthat was the key and I said that in there. But then I said--and I'llgo into this if we write a pamphlet which is what I hope to do. Thatyou can't gloss over the weaknesses of the Southern Conference on race,because basically it was white dominated. And, um, there were a lotof blacks involved, but it was the whites led it. And they knew--Ithink there were, that it's true that not everybody but certainly some43:00of them did sense that this was the key to changing things. But Idon't think it ever occurred to them that blacks were going to rise upto lead the struggle to a New South and a new country. And that--butI'm not sure they could have, you know? I mean, they're things thatwe, that history has taught that ----------(??) and it hasn't taughtit to all white people yet, so I think, you know, that's one of themessages we'll want to project by this thing we're gonna do. Butanyway, getting back to Virginia, I think she was limited by the timeand generation she was born into, and I don't know whether you couldhave not been a paternalistic. I think it made it very difficult that,that's why she just can't accept the black power and the whole thing,you know, there's a scene in her book where she's so hurt and she goesover to Tuskegee, and the students, uh, you know, are rude to her andstuff like that. She's not used to blacks being rude to her. And, um,um, but, and the other thing, this--I'm veering off, I'll come back to44:00the women thing. But one of the things--Virginia and I used to talkabout this. She, she had a harder time with the fifties than I did interms of being ostracized and an outcast and so forth and, because ofher previous experience. And she, she was objective enough to see thiswhen she talked to me about it, and I don't sense it in the book. Butshe said that, that, you see, when she and Cliff went to Washington inthe New Deal, and he became a fair-, a high official in the New Deal,I mean, she was really in the, you know, close to the seats of power asmuch as women could be. Which wasn't much, it was through her husband.

FOSL: Right.

BRADEN: But, she knew of, you know, she hobnobbed with all the senators

and congressmen and if she said, if wanted to have a little committeemeeting, you just called up Mrs. Roosevelt and had it at the WhiteHouse. I mean, that was just part of life. And, um, to come fromthat, and then come back to Alabama and suddenly find yourself a pariah45:00and nobody even down there will speak to you, and stuff like that, is,would be difficult for anybody to handle. And I said, well you know,I never had that problem because wasn't, didn't live in that period,you know. And from the minute I, when I joined things in the lateforties, I knew I was joining an outcast movement because the Cold Warhad already started you know. So, I knew that was what I was doing,and it's just so, it just wasn't that kind of a shock, right? So, wewere, you know, we're all shaped by the time and the place that welive in. But, the reason I got into Virginia at all was on the womenthing. You see, I think that one thing--I can't remember how clearlythis comes out in her book, but I know in the things that she saidto me in the past, I think that, that, that she sensed that what washappening in the struggle for the vote for blacks and the strugglefor, as they saw it then, of equality of blacks, was a key to women's46:00freedom. And that, that it was partly just an intuition people had,that they knew that some way these things were tied together. And theywere, in the sense that as she got into civil rights kind of things,she was able to develop leadership and so forth as a woman. Which wasthe experience of the women in the sixties, you know, as some of 'emnow recognize and it was certainly my experience. Now, I knew, I thinkI knew pretty young, I don't know how young, you never know. Just likeI don't know about race, when I really was aware of it. But somewherealong the line, I knew I wasn't going to be satisfied with the trad-,the traditional role of women. And that's why I wanted to have acareer. And my mother encouraged me in that, because she was probablya frustrated career person herself. She never would have admitted it,but I think that she probably was. But--and she began talking to me47:00about being a newspaper reporter when I was a little girl or a writer.Um, which she had planned to be but never was and, um, after she gotout of college. Um, but I saw this, the--I could have a career. Icould have a more interesting life than the life that women had. AndI, I think I figured out pretty soon that to be a woman as I saw it in,you know, the world which was white and privileged, but what I saw inAnniston would be a terribly boring life to live, and I didn't want todo that. So, I definitely wanted to break away from the traditionalroles of women and although at least part of me did. Part of thatwas an accident really, then that I became more consciously that way,because I went to women's colleges. Which I think still, I still thinkwomen's colleges are a good idea today, and many ways because women48:00had probably had more chance to develop as leaders or in individualityand everything else. But it certainly was for me. And I may have toldyou this before, I have often wondered what would have happened to meif the war hadn't been going on and I had gone on to the University ofAlabama--which is probably what I would have done, if it hadn't beenfor World War II.

FOSL: Hmm. Why is that?

BRADEN: Or Auburn. Well, because I was sort of a social butterfly in

high school by that time. All my friends were going there, I wasn't,the last two years in high school, I became very much, you know, sociallife was the thing. And had me boyfriends and stuff like that. WhichI didn't have a lot of at--I was late blooming sort of. I wasn'tparticularly popular with the boys and stuff when I was maybe in theseventh, eighth and ninth grades. But as I got older and that wasthe most important thing. I mean, really if you didn't have a lot ofboyfriends, then life was a failure. Of course that's nothing unusualabout that. That was true practically and it had nothing to do withclass, either that's true in every class, and I think that it's stilltrue today unfortunately. Maybe some cases it isn't. But, you know,49:00I--so that was sort of an objective I guess and I was too smart andboys don't like girls with brains. So, I learned how to cover up mybrains and I finally got the point where I had enough boyfriends andwent to all the dances and stuff. And got pretty caught up in thatI guess, and, and that's what you did. I mean, you know, girls whenthey finished high school they went to the University of Alabama andjoined a sorority, and had a good time and caught a husband. And, um,and I might have done that. Mother, my family always wanted me to goto women's colleges. They really wanted me to have an education. ButI'm not sure I would have agreed to it, except, you see, by the time Igot to ready to go to college, although Pearl Harbor had not happened.We weren't in the war; we were heading toward the war. People--boyswere being drafted. So, the, the, uh, university and co-ed campuseswere becoming women's colleges, really. They were all going into theArmy. So, I said--well and Mother had this notion that I should go to50:00a women's college in Virginia, and I thought, "Well, why not?" becauseit's gonna be a girls college in Tuscaloosa anyway, so, why not? So,and then I, I've probably mentioned this before that, that tell you,that so, I got to Stratford, and that was a very intellectual awakeningwhich I'd just never had that sort of life. But, it was also the ideathat and meeting women that were gonna have careers and that kind ofthing. So, I definitely wanted to break away from that pattern ofwomen that I saw. Um, but I wonder if I ever would of really, in anyreal way, if I hadn't found the Civil Rights Movement, but ----------(??) kind of true, I kind of doubt I would, because that's where Ireally was able, to, I think, to find an identity for myself, you know,and they did come together in a lot of ways. And I think the wholething of um--and I gotta write something about this for Ma-, you knowMab Segrest, you know Mab Segrest?51:00

FOSL: Um, I don't know if I've met him once--

BRADEN: She's doing a book. She and some other people on the women's

movement right now that she wants me to write a piece for, and, um,racism. Um, and she had asked--there's a woman here that's active inwomen's things, a good friend of mine, a young woman. She had sentsome questions over that she wanted--if I didn't have time to writesomething for Pam here, to, uh, just sort of interview me on thosequestions. But I saw Mab at the last Center for Democratic Renewalboard meeting down in Atlanta in January. And, um, we just weretalking, sitting around before the meeting started, and I was talkingabout my current optimism and how I think we really got a chance toorganize right now, and get whites involved in things that are reallyintrinsically anti-racist and ----------(??) and all that kind ofstuff. And that, and so, then so she said, "Would you," and she wasjust listening, "would you write something like that for our book?" Andhow it affects women, and what women could do to sort of bridge the gapright now, to get the questions. So, I'm gonna try and do it. I've52:00got to call her to see when the real deadline is. But I wanna kindof and she said, "To try and be historically as much as I could," andI want a kind of, gonna do some thinking about this, and you may havesome ideas on it. I, I talked about it a lot and I can't remember howmuch I've written about it. But the role that white women did playin the Civil Rights Movement, you know. And it's always more than thewhite man. Always. Um, there were some white men, I'm talking aboutin the South, but where you'd have women, where you'd have any whitesactive in communities, it was more likely to be the women. And theyalways had trouble with their husbands about it. You know, and thatwas just a pattern. And there's, there's bound to be reasons for that.You know--

FOSL: Yeah, but it's, I think it's a general trend of women in social

movements. I think it, I think in just about--

BRADEN: All of them? Is that what you're saying?

FOSL: Yeah. I mean, that, that was certainly, it has certainly been

true in peace movements since--in this century and really, in, you53:00know, if you look at the abolitionist movement, I mean, women are oftenat the forefront. And I do believe that that, you know, that that hassomething to do with just gender differences.

BRADEN: Or is it, yeah, probably. But di-, is it also, I mean, do

you think women because of being oppressed themselves, identify withoppression?

FOSL: Well, yeah, I think that's part of it. And I think um, that that

women have different views on inclusiveness. Women have a greatertendency towards inclusiveness. Uh, than men, than men do. Yeah, ifyou look at, there are a lot of studies that that indicate that although54:00men have a stronger sense of what would be typically called justice andfairness, that women seem to have inc-, you know, a greater sensitivityto, you know, inclusiveness, towards, you know, not leaving people out.Not being cruel to people. And that may really, it's not unrelated towhat you say either, but I'm not sure if that's all there is.

BRADEN: Um-hm. It sure was true in the sixties and stuff, as far

as civil rights things. And, you know, there are a lot of specificinstances--

FOSL: Well, I think that one thing that interests me about the, what

you call the woman question with respect to, you know, a book aboutyou is that, you know, the earlier generation of activists--and, and55:00I put Virginia in that generation. I mean, she, she was really on thetail end of it. I'm thinking more of like, you know, the Jane AddamsHull House tradition. The whole like, like World War I suffragist andpacifists. There was a great movement of women during that time. Andthat--I think is the--when I speak of the generation prior to yours,that's who I'm primarily speaking of. The prior generation of womenactivists, I'm thinking of those folks. And um, it was just almostunanimously understood that to be an activist, you couldn't be married.You couldn't do both. Uh, there were, you know, most of the women whowere, who dedicated themselves to social change, did so at the expense56:00of family life. Now, uh, a lot of them did pair up with anotherwoman, and it's not clear to me what the nature of their relationshipwith that other woman was, but, you know, as far as like husband andchildren, no. It was almost unheard of.

BRADEN: In the suffragist movement you mean?

FOSL: In the pacifist movement.

BRADEN: In the pacifist also?

FOSL: --uh--

BRADEN: Jane Addams, Jane Addams never married.

FOSL: Almost, I mean, I could--all of the well, founders that I could

name, none of them ever married, I mean, very few--

BRADEN: But, now, some of these earlier women in racial justice sort

of things in the South, like the Women, the Women Against Lynching andstuff, were mostly married women, weren't they?

in it, didn't he? Two of them? I don't know, we should look into that.That's interesting. But a lot of the women were definitely from whatI've read. Now Lillian Smith never married.

FOSL: Right.

BRADEN: I think Lillian Smith was probably a lesbian--

FOSL: I do too. Because she was with--

BRADEN: I don't know whether she ever said or not.

FOSL: But I was thinking of her with this same group, I was--and Dorothy

Tilley, I don't know if she--

BRADEN: I think she was married.

FOSL: I have no idea.

BRADEN: Why don't you find out, I think that's kind of interesting. How

did, yeah, still, 'cause--I bet you though, we might find out--I think,uh, Jackie Hall's book is about more than Ames, I think it's about thatmovement in general. I bet you could find out by reading that bookmore carefully, how many of them were married. But I thought all ofthem had husbands. I think they had to sort of defy their husbands todo what they did, although some of the husbands I think were supportiveand somewhere, I've gotten the idea that Ames was married and her58:00husband was supportive--I could be wrong. And of course, Virginiawas married.

FOSL: Right.

BRADEN: And that was very important you know. Her family thought it was

so important she marry. And--well, we should ask Virginia before shedies about other women, say in the Southern Conference. Um, there weresome very active women. Black women that were active in that earlierperiod I think tended to be married. I believe. You know, like SonoraLawson, and who was still active when I came along and Virginia. Therewas a really great black woman--I don't know if she was married or not,who was the leader of that Winston-Salem Tobacco Workers Local.

FOSL: I don't know. I think it would be interesting to look into that.

But I think in general, it does--I mean, you could find a marriedpopulation there, I guess. But, uh, I think in general, many, the vastmajority of women activists, leading woman activists of the early partof the century did choose. They felt they had to choose one or theother. Um--

BRADEN: Well, that was true of Harriet Fitzgerald's generation. And she

and I used to talk about that or she'd talk to me about it. Of course,she never married. Harriet was a lesbian; she never really talkedabout it a lot. But she was, she didn't make any great secret of it.She lived for years--when I knew her, she was living with Norma, NormaChambers.

Harriet's friends at Randolph-Macon, she graduated from Randolph-Maconin 1926. So, she was twenty, exactly twenty years older than me Ithink. She was a generation older than me. And her younger sister,who was also, had the same perspectives; Ida Fitzgerald was--graduatedfrom Randolph-Macon in '28. They were two years apart, and her idea,and she was an artist and she went to New York to be an artist. Imean, I guess you could be an artist someplace else, but they went andlived in Greenwich Village, that's what you did. And, and Norma wasan actress, and they lived together until Norma died prematurely ofcancer, in her early fifties actually. At which point, Harriet beganliving with another woman who she lived with until she died, a youngerwoman. That's still around, I have not seen her since Harriet died.61:00Um, but I never felt very close to her, I liked her, named Peggy.Who was a Randolph-Macon graduate, younger than me. Um, but, andI think that there were other people that were in her sort of circleat Randolph-Macon, that they, now they didn't go so much into socialjustice movements, although they were very sympathetic, just like----------(??), I learned to, it's where I first learned of the labormovement was from Harriet. And she knew all about it. She was afriend of Lucy Randolph Mason's--

FOSL: Right.

BRADEN: And she always wanted me to meet her, but I never did. But--I

guess and Lucy Randolph Mason I guess was from Virginia, wasn't she? Sothey knew each other. But um, and I guess maybe, Lucy Randolph Masonmay have been older than Harriet, I don't know, maybe not. But Harrietwasn't an activist like that, that wasn't her thing. But, she was,well she was very sympathetic with all of those causes and, um, and of62:00course she went through a good bit of personal turmoil I guess on theclass issue, because her father owned Dan River Mills when there was abig strike there during the textile organizing in the early thirties.That was one of the scenes--that's, in, uh, was that book, WhenSouthern Labor Stirs, by Tom Tippett. Have you ever read it?

FOSL: I haven't read it.

BRADEN: It's a real good book. I think I have that one here somewhere.

But, part one of the sections of that, is on Danville, on the Danvillestrike. In fact, I think Harriet is the one who told me to readthat book first. I believe. But, um, that was a tough because itwas hard on her and her father was, it was--Dan River Mills was verypaternalistic. Her father was a typical paternalistic employer. Theyhad had a--and it was supposed, he thought it was one, big, happyfamily at the Dan River Mills. You know.

FOSL: Yeah.

BRADEN: And uh, and they--I think this is in Tippett's book, I think she

63:00told me about it too. They had--there was some sort of a, um, co-op,supposedly, cooperative arrangement of the management of the plant withthe employees, they had a senate, or I don't know if they called ita senate. But, you know, something that met, and all that. But, andthat was all right until during the Depression when they voted, whenthey had, uh, the management decided to have a wage cut. Nobody hadany say in that, right?

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: And that's when they began to organize the union. And he

was terribly hurt and felt betrayed. You see, that people wouldturn against him. And then there were vicious attacks on him. AndHarriet's--Harriet had two older sisters, Ida was younger. I neverreally got to know the two older ones. I met them. They were allgirls. But they never had the social consciousness Harriet had, theolder ones. But the--and they both married. Ida and Harriet, neitherone never married. And she was somewhat close to their children. Sort64:00of an active aunt and I know I didn't follow this toward the end ofher life had a--(coughs)--terrible sort of experience with one of thenephews. I think finally he committed suicide. But, the, um, this,her, her very older sister, the oldest child got married in the midstof that strike. And had a big, big, fancy wedding. And she said, Ithink she was determined to have a fancy wedding. And her father triedto persuade her not to because what was going on with the strike andeverything. But she insisted on, and they did it, and so the strikerswere circulating rumors that they threw diamonds into the air insteadof rice, at the wedding and all that kind of stuff. Which it wasn'tquite that bad. But, you know, there was that, but, but, and Harrietworked through all that and, and you know, became very pro-labor.But her idea was to have a, you know, have a career as an artist andNorma's was career as an actress, and, and they had other friends that65:00sort of, uh, and you, and--I guess you didn't do that in Virginia, soit was more interesting in Greenwich Village and you went and livedGreenwich Village sort of. And I thought that was the ideal life, youknow, at that time. And um, but she, um--I remember her saying to meone time, although and I, I wasn't interested in getting married atthat point at all, but she and I remember her saying. She said, "Well,you know, your generation can probably do both. But mine had to make achoice." So, she said the same thing you're saying.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: Well, I don't know that it was possible for my generation

either. I'm not even sure it's possible today. I mean, you know,it's--(laughs)--it's, um, and, and now, there are more women notgetting married than before, right? Aren't there more women--

FOSL: Probably. Yeah.

BRADEN: I don't know either. I bet there'd been, um, I know a lot of

women who don't plan to get married, or else they've been married and66:00decided not to be married, which is a, um, the-- and then of course thething that's been written about a lot is the women who wanted to havea career and waited, and they get worried about whether they are evergoing to have children or not and whether it's gonna be--now what's thematter, Dominique?

DOMINIQUE: She, Alice had stepped on me and then she didn't say she was

sorry. But she did, and she screamed in my ear.

[Pause in recording.]

BRADEN: Anyway, I think, you know, I'd want to look into the

relationship with all these other things to women, and me as awoman. As far as the marriage thing, and those different patterns indifferent generations. I'm not sure how much my experience illuminatesthat, because mine was not a traditional marriage or a typicalmarriage. Um, I think, um, there are all kinds of difficulties from67:00women to combine marriage with anything.

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: And I guess a lot of women are combining marriage with a career

now. And marriage and children. I don't know how well they thinkthey're doing. Some of them, I guess, are doing all right. But Ialways thought and this was probably more parallel to your suffragistsand people like that, but combining children, children in a marriagewith a career was quite different than combining it with activity in asocial justice movement, because a career is more likely to be somewhat68:00planable and regular hours and people can go to work and they know whenthey're coming home and, and plan what's called quality time with theirchildren and all that. Whereas in these other movements, you neverknow what's going to happen next. And, there's a lot of tension andstrain and you can sit down and think you're going to have supper withyour family and the phone rings and somebody's in jail. And you knowstuff like that. Um, plus the attacks from the outside that I thinkaffect children. So it's a, it's a different experience and, um, alot of people have tried to combine those things, and some of them havedone it successfully I guess. Uh, and I think, I know I encounter a69:00lot of people now, in the peace movement especially who have childrenand talk a lot about parenting. I never heard that word when I was aparent, but that's quite a word now.

FOSL: Right.

BRADEN: And, uh, spend a lot of time figuring out how to create a good

environment for their children.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Oh man.

BRADEN: Which--

FOSL: Tell, tell me this. Did you talk with the children about racism

and about like the chasm between you and your parents for instance whenthey were coming up?

BRADEN: Not so much the chasm between my parents, but, but I think

there's a difference. You see, I never--I think in some ways, Imean, I, in thinking about some of the absorption that people have inhow they're raising their children, what sort of environment they'recreating for them--

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: It's almost the most important thing. Maybe it is the most

70:00important thing. My feeling is, there, that my generation didn'thave that luxury. We thought we were and I, that we were in absolutecrisis. Which I think we were. I don't think we were wrong. We wereliving in a police state and we thought that third, World War III wasimminent, which I think it could have been. And that we were on theverge of fascism, which I think we could have been. And it was likepeople were sticking their finger in their dyke, in the dyke to stopthese things. I mean, I had the feeling in those years, I, uh--somethings stick your mind. I remember when--sitting right out here inthe yard--when a, a couple, who was a friend of ours, he'd been leadingthe union and tal-, the Harvester plant here. And he married thisgirl from England. She'd come over here as a war bride. Um, with aguy who was in England during World War II, and they some way endedup in Louisville. I don't think he was from Louisville. But she hadseparated from him and she had fallen in love with this, Allen, who was71:00this labor guy. And they, they were very active in a lot of the stuff,uh, the movement against the Korean War and anti-racist stuff in thatperiod. But they came down here one day to tell us they were leavingand going, moving to England. And I'll never forget how I felt, Ireally felt like they were leaving me behind enemy lines. I mean, Ijust felt like they were deserting me. Later, ----------(??) stoodup. We saw them when we were in England in the early seventies when wewent to see Jim when he was at Oxford. And had a good time with them,went and saw some of London and stuff. By that time, this guy actuallyhad a British accent.

FOSL: Oh, really.

BRADEN: That he had acquired over the years and they had a child.

And, uh, um, we used to hear from them through the years. But Ijust remember that feeling that we were in a war. So, you know, it'sthe luxury of sort of figuring out where's a good environment for mychildren, how am I gonna parent my children. I just, it never occurredto me for one thing. But I'm not sure our generation had that luxury.72:00

FOSL: Um-hm.

BRADEN: Now, maybe we're in as much of a crisis now, but I don't think

people in the movement feel like they're in that much of a crisis. Imean the, I know it's important to work for peace and to work for thesethings, but I don't think they had that sense of crisis that we hadin the late forties and in the fifties. People who were active. Andas I say, I don't think that was a figment of our imagination, either.Certainly not entirely. I mean things weren't maybe as bad as, asclose to fascism as some people thought, but pretty close. I mean,they were building concentration camps, you know, six of them. And,I think the Communist Party, you know, now thinks it made a completelywrong assessment of the period. When they decided that their leaders73:00would go underground, because they had this one minute to midnighttheory that it was practically fascism. And, I mean, that was, youknow, wrong, incorrect assessment. And that was. But, but it, uh, thefact that people fought back made a difference, so it was a differentkind of environment. Some more coffee.

[Pause in recording.]

FOSL: Now it's on.

BRADEN: Well, turn it off because what the things that--

[Pause in recording.]

FOSL: Because I think it's important to outline in the absence of what

we just talked about. I think it'd be good, I mean, all this isn'tnecessarily for publication anyway. But, uh, I think it would be goodto go over that, this, um, this sort of whole line of where you think,of the importance of the First Amendment, and you know, not responding74:00to that question. Which is, I think, what you were about to say. So,I just want you to--

BRADEN: Well, that became an important principle. Have you ever seen

the pamphlet? I don't, I know I got one somewhere that I wrote aboutCarl's case against HUAC. "My beliefs and my associations are none ofthe business of this committee."

FOSL: I have seen it, but it's been, uh, back in the fall and I didn't

really read it.

BRADEN: Where did you find it?

FOSL: I believe that it is in, uh, the collect-, the Moorland-Spingarn

collection at Howard Univers-, the civil rights collection at Howard.

BRADEN: I'm sure it's at Wisconsin. And I have a copy here somewhere

but I'm not sure where. And there were some bound things that I can'tremember, I can't find. Where Carl had found very, briefs in ourvarious cases and also had that pamphlet and some other things. Andthey may be at Wisconsin. I remember having them at one point, they'renot here anymore. They may be there. But anyway, I have it somewhere.But I wrote that pamphlet--now what, Dominique?

myself, you know, and see how much I still, well I'm sure I stillagree with it, but would I put it the same way. But the point is,what the point we usually try to make, I mean that, the whole settingup of whether --are you a communist or not as being a test oath, ina way, not just in terms of government employees, which it certainlywas, with the loyalty oath, and all that. But it was a test oath inthe society. That if you--are, are you a communist or not, meant, areyou a legitimate human being? And if you're a communist, then you'renot a legitimate human being and nobody needs to listen to you sortof thing. And because, uh, you had to be anti-communist to, uh, doanything else. That was the assumption of the period which I think initself was a totally destructive concept, because it defines a societyby what it's against instead of what it's for in the first place. And76:00it's like the old story of the "Mugity Wumpus"--did you ever read MikeQuin's "Mugity Wumpus," or something?

FOSL: Unh-uh.

BRADEN: Well, I got that around here. Mike Quin was a working class

writer on the West Coast and wrote the big strike about the SanFrancisco general strike and was a great writer. But he's got a fableand I forgot some of the details ----------(??) but the whole concept,the idea was that he sort of tells a fable--