Originally posted by Bader The lions was in England and France. Their monkey's were mainly on the coast where the trade/exports and money was. Those who went interior were trying to get away from the lion.

Indians were well armed and fighting one another long before theslaves who escaped from the Lion get there. Live by the 'sword',die by the 'sword'.Live by the banana, laugh by the banana!

They didn't have a revolution like ours at hand. If they did, the good Indians and the good Samaritans could have joined in a revolution to come up with a good United States. But I'm afraid the bad guys won...

Bader, Samar is a kibbutz that still runs the old fashioned way. That's the way it should be. I'd emphasize the fact that jobs be rotated and the cafeteria be communal, that would result in high socialization and some people not being better thant others. Yet there's a high degree of individual freedom.

'Samar is a throw-back to the days when kibbutzim really were communities guided by principles of true equality, not the heavily structured businesses many have become. Yet while the kibbutz movement as a whole is in the throes of economic and social decay, Samar is blossoming.

Situated about 30 kilometers north of Eilat, Samar is this year marking the 25th anniversary of its founding garin --the nucleus of youngsters who went through the army together and then set up the kibbutz in 1976. Apart from the groves, which produce four kinds of mostly organic dates, members work in a thriving dairy, and various individual economic enterprises. And despite the unorthodox manpower and budgeting arrangements, the kibbutz breaks even, says Shelly Ashkenazi, the secretary. This enables members to maintain a modest, but comfortable, way of life --families have personal computers, TVs and VCRs, and cellphones.

Of the 160 people on Samar, 70 are members and the rest are children, volunteers and candidates for membership. The numbers are kept down; there is little housing for new candidates. Ashkenazi, a sun-tanned woman in her 30s, who came to Israel from Chicago in 1983, says she has stopped keeping a waiting list.

The most striking example of Samar's unique way of life is the way members gel money --from a kupah p 'tuha, or "open cash box," instead of the "personal budget" system of other kibbutzim. In the early days, members would just help themselves to cash from a box in the dining room. This was changed when outsiders began helping themselves too, so today there's a kibbutz credit card --but members have free, unlimited access. "If someone wants to spend $ 10,000 on an addition to their house," says one member, "they do it. There's nothing to stop them." Nothing, that is, except responsibility toward the other members.

Over the years, only two members have been expelled for abusing the system; "They pretended not to know the difference between 350 shekels and 35,000 shekels," says Ashkenazi, outraged, comparing the offense to "a husband who rapes his wife and then claims he has every right to have sex with his spouse."

An anarchist kibbutz seems like a contradiction in terms: How can a socialist society function without strict rules? But the pure communism behind the kibbutz idea --from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs-- actually goes hand in hand with anarchism, which is based on people acting voluntarily out of a sense of responsibility towards the community.

This view is enthusiastically espoused by the umbrella Kibbutz Movement's head Avshalom (Abu) Vilan, a Meretz party Knesset member, and one of Samar's biggest fans. In 1977 Vilan, then head of the Young Adults Division of the now defunct Kibbutz Artzi Federation, i told the members of the young kibbutz that their anarchic system was doomed to failure. It couldn't work, he opined, because it required each member "to behave like he or she is the treasurer of the kibbutz, with all the responsibility of the kibbutz on his or her shoulders." Twenty years later, Vilan went back to Samar and admitted that he'd been wrong. (His own kibbutz, Negbah, meanwhile, is in deep financial and social trouble.)

According to Daniel Levy, 38, a nine-year Samarian who grew up in Detroit, "Samar has taken the collective idea and stood it on its head. With the traditional kibbutz collective, the individual is subservient to the needs of the community. The kibbutz gets to tell me where I go to work. I have to ask committees to do anything. Individual freedom is greatly limited. On Samar, the individual has total autonomy."

Levy, his wife Debbie and their four children - aged 8 years to 10 months - moved to a small Samar cottage after four years on another Aravah kibbutz, Grofit.

Ashkenazi says that the traditional kibbutz system "puts people to sleep and presses them down to mediocrity," whereas Samar "leaves you in control and forces active involvement". But there's nothing coercive about that involvement. Only 10 to 25 of the 70 members come to general meetings. "Not everyone wants to be involved in every aspect of the kibbutz," says Ashkenazi. "Not everyone wants to tell everyone else what to do. Some people are busy making themselves better people. If they wanted total control, they wouldn't have chosen this as their home."

The celebration of personal freedom is a constant theme at Samar. Says Gigi Strom, who runs the dairy: "It's the right attitude to let people do what they want to do --happier people are more productive." She only wonders why more kibbutzim don't see things this way.'

I noted DonQ, the originators, they were all of a military background and thus understood:
Interdependance
Trust
Discipline
Responsibility
Standing Orders ( compliance standards)
Skill
Divisions of labour
A sense of direction/operation/target and the only option of winning/achieving.

I suspect that it is successful because the influx is slow. You can only enjoy the above if the changing of the constituents is
very slow. Any fuidity after that first start would have lost all the
'assets' that would have rubbed off onto new ones of a different background.

This one is towards 'social credit'. "leaves you in control and forces active involvement" - its vital people feel they are in control and benefiting directly, but I suspect the "forces" bit wasnt the
best choice of word, should be 'inspires' or 'motivates' perhaps.

The issue of 'communal' though is another matter. I rather think this may be too anti-family unit and thus makes it communism.

In parts of europe, I dont know which counties, may be France, farmers lived in a village and not on the farm. So they went off to work every morning like everyone else. Maybe that might be a better social structural model to create privacy which is one of the dimensions of freedom.

Originally posted by Bader B]I noted DonQ, the originators, they were all of a military background and thus understood:InterdependanceTrustDisciplineResponsibilityStanding Orders ( compliance standards)SkillDivisions of labourA sense of direction/operation/target and the only option of winning/achieving.

B]

Stability and sustainability. All this kibbutz or the coops are the capitalist vents to recap social unrest in an attempt to smooth the waves,; so the power and money will stay in the same and their hands. Vaser soup to sustain status quo.. Dismantling working unions, promote the church and set the coops to stop revolution before it starts. Addiction to vaser soup will uphold the society dependability, what is main aim of society control. and time will be to go to grave before you can wake up. . .

The celebration of personal freedom is a constant theme at Samar. Says Gigi Strom, who runs the dairy: "It's the right attitude to let people do what they want to do --happier people are more productive." She only wonders why more kibbutzim don't see things this way.'

B]

happier people are more productive- as the cow what at the tones of George Gershwin music produces more milk

Originally posted by Bader The issue of 'communal' though is another matter. I rather think this may be too anti-family unit and thus makes it communism.

In parts of europe, I dont know which counties, may be France, farmers lived in a village and not on the farm. So they went off to work every morning like everyone else. Maybe that might be a better social structural model to create privacy which is one of the dimensions of freedom.

The people joining the kibbutz is people who's sick and tired of the lion and his jungle. They would welcome COMMUNITY. I thought of a comparative example: Lions surround themselves by walls and guards in order to isolate themselves from the jungle. There's nothing social about that. Perhaps some golf, or tennis at the most. Well, little animals can do the same, their community though is similar to a kibbutz: plenty of socialization, since the common people is very social. They can socialize at the cafeteria or at a dancing activity to be held every night. THERE'S NO MONEY TO GET SERVICES.

But in between those two poles there are regular coops, Mondragon style, where workers practice their own social capitalism. THERE'S MONEY TO GET SERVICES. There's social capital and they have their own banks. In these, people are more family centered. There's no need to force kibbutz into individualism nor no need to force Mondragon into community. And then there's society at large who will keep working for the lion, a tamed lion, that is, since he now got competition.

Originally posted by donquijote [B]ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY, Bader, is the name of the game.

B]

And I thought that US war on terrorism.

In August 2004, Posada Carriles and three other Cubans were pardoned by then Panamanian President Mireya Moscoso. They had been in jail since November 2000, after being captured for planning an attack on Castro in Panama during an Summit of Ibero-American countries. Declassified US documents show that Posada Carriles, who is seeking asylum in the United States, spent years on the CIA payroll. CIA and FBI files, published by George Washington University's National Security Archive, revealed that US investigators believed Posada Carriles was involved in the 1976 bombing of the Cubana Airlines jet that killed 73 passengers, including teenage members of a Cuban fencing teamCastro condemned on Tuesday evening the refusal of the United States to capture and indict Cuban Luis Posada Carriles, who currently is in US territory http://news.xinhuane...ent_2949068.htm

Revolution bred in Belarus-- A official has confirmed information from Russia that western countries are nurturing plans to stage a revolution in the republic.

Deputy head of the Belarusian State Security Committee, Viktor Vegera, says the committee has confirmed that private funds are being used to foment a revolution in Belarus.
Russia security chief Nikolai Patrushev says a non-profit US organization, which played a key role in Ukraine's "orange revolution" last year, has earmarked five million US dollars to finance the Belarus opposition. http://news.xinhuane...ent_2954977.htm
Money which were to pay Poland for returned her costs of war in Iraq were cancel by US government.

Hot summer in the spring this year; a suspected suicide bomber was shot dead by security officers posted at the Israeli Embassy in Tashkent, capital of Uzbekistan http://news.xinhuane...ent_2954745.htm"A roadside bomb exploded in Khadra district on the highway leading to Baghdad airport as a US military convoyed was passingby, setting a US Humvee ablaze," Salim could not verify whether there was any casualties among the US soldiers http://news.xinhuane...ent_2954792.htmThe harder you beat the gong the louder the sound (the wisdom of the Dragon )

"In recent weeks, Uzbeks have shown increasing willingness to challenge the leadership in protests, apparently bolstered by the March uprising in Kyrgyzstan that drove out President Askar Akayev and similar ones in Ukraine and Georgia."

Uzbeks must have thought it was all about "democracy." Little do they know of the hungry lion who wants no competition. Democratic show in other republics were good for the lion. The "democratic foxes" were in line with his interests. In this case nobody cares about it. A little lion in this far away republic is good for the big lion.:confused:

The lion shows his teeth--and uses them--in this case...

'Parpiyev said Interior Minister Zakir Almatov called him Friday morning and heard the protesters' demands. He initially agreed to negotiations but said later that the offer of talks was off, the protest organizer said.

"He said, 'We don't care if 200, 300 or 400 people die. We have force and we will chuck you out of there anyway,'" Parpiyev quoted Almatov as saying.'

ANDIJAN, Uzbekistan - Soldiers loyal to Uzbekistan's authoritarian leader, a U.S. ally, opened fire on thousands of demonstrators Friday to put down an uprising that began when armed men freed 2,000 inmates from prison, including suspects on trial for alleged Islamic extremism.

The death toll from a day of violence in the eastern Uzbek city was not known. The government said nine died before the shootings in the square but gave no overall figure. Witnesses said dozens may have been killed by the troops, who rode into the square in a truck behind an armored personnel carrier as helicopters hovered overhead.

Gunfire died down overnight, then shots were heard briefly in central Andijan early Saturday; still, the streets appeared largely quiet with most of the city's 350,000 people in their homes.

Authorities said security forces had regained control of the city administration building seized earlier in the day by armed protesters. Hostages taken by the demonstrators as human shields at the building were released, a high-ranking Uzbek official said on condition he not be named.

The prison raid and the soldiers' fusillades were in sharp contrast to the largely peaceful uprisings that sparked regime changes in the former Soviet republics of Georgia, Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan in the past 18 months. President Islam Karimov is regarded as one of the harshest leaders in the former Soviet Union and apparently favors quick and decisive action against any threats to his regime.

Uzbekistan is a key Washington ally in the war on terrorism and hosts a U.S. air base to support military operations in neighboring Afghanistan following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. But it also is frequently denounced by human rights groups and Western governments for torture and repression of opposition.

The White House urged restraint by the government and the demonstrators.

"The people of Uzbekistan want to see a more representative and democratic government. But that should come through peaceful means not through violence, and that's what our message is," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said. "We have had concerns about human rights in Uzbekistan, but we are concerned about the outbreak of violence, particularly by some members of a terrorist organization that were freed from prison."

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic. Donq attacks us with his idea of oppressing people for their own good. Still he doesn-t notice that kibbutz-s are worst than communism because one in communism could have no money but the power, in kibbutz one can only to continue his existence not different from a radish being on organic fertilizer where this red radish is too young for an eternal dream and too old for a sex. .

Woj, you really like the lion. But perhaps he's not that bad. He's in need of love and something sweet. I try this with the lion...

Originally posted by donquijote [B]Woj, you really like the lion. But perhaps he's not that bad. He's in need of love and something sweet. I try this with the lion...

/B]

Most visible characteristic for grandparents and impotents is that they are lecture the others on sex and democracy. They are especially trouble makers when they also the day dreamers ;an example the Bush with his reform on SS or base closings to find candidates and provide the money for Iraq war. NYTimes even offer the subject; - Thanks to the Republicans, countless Americans are becoming "war profiteers" in their spare time - and you can, too*- Start a War, No Money Down!*

But worst case that one creates are the desert mirages or delusions as for example Martin Wolf- in saying- Russia needs help to be 'normal' . Self-indulgent winging might be more dangerous for the instigator than the addressee. Russia doesn

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic. Most visible characteristic for grandparents and impotents is that they are lecture the others on sex and democracy.

And, if you need any Biblical validation, there's this interpretation, "In the Middle Ages, the banana was thought to be the forbidden fruit of paradise by both Moslems and Christians." So the 'tree of knowledge,' which produced the 'forbidden fruit,' was more likely than not that of sexual knowledge, which gave us the 'original sin.'

"The biblical text is known : yielding to temptation, the primordial couple tasted of the fruit of a prohibited tree, that of Knowledge... [and] humans become aware of their sexual condition. The price was heavy to pay : they lost their immortality. '6 the woman saw that it was good to eat, the fruit of this tree! how good it was to behold ! it seized one with the desire to act with sagacity!... she thus took a fruit and ate of it ; she also gave some to her husband close by and he ate... 7 So their eyes were opened and they became aware of their nudity : they bent leaves of the fig tree to be make loincloths...'" http://perso.wanadoo...on/modesty5.htm

So we may argue that a carnivorous lion is no longer acceptable, and that we are making Satan the Lion pay his due by giving him the banana.

Originally posted by donquijote B]And, if you need any Biblical validation, there's this interpretation, "In the Middle Ages, the banana was thought to be the forbidden fruit of paradise by both Moslems and Christians." B]

Former Chechen separatist leader Vakha Arsanov reportedly killed in Grozny. The sudden raid took place over the night to Sunday. After refusing to surrender, the four gunmen, including Arsanov, were killed in a brief clash. Arsanov was a leading rebel commander in the 1994-96 war with Russian forces. In the 1997 elections, he became vice president under Aslan Maskhadov. However, he was reportedly fired by Maskhadov in early 1999.. On the same day, Chechen Interior Ministry also announced the death of Denilbek Eskiyev.

On desert, the bananas use panamas for cover instead of the traditional fig leaf.

"Consumer advocates say banks have gone fee crazy and in addition to the first fee, some banks tack on daily charges until the courtesy has been repaid. It's all legal and very profitable."

I'm out to prove there's a HUNGRY LION, from international politics down to your neighborhood bank. Well, I could start with Iraq but I rather concentrate on the local bank. Why on earth they use deceit and camouflage to eat you and then get away with it? 30 bucks for overdraft again and again until they get the life--and the paycheck--out of you. Isn't it time the little animals got together and do something?

Howdy GariI'm glad you liked it. The idea of GIVING THE BANANA TO THE LION occurred to me quite recently and it has been an smashing hit with the common folk. (I hand out these fliers.) The lion wants confrontation but the clever monkey knows he better use his own weapon...the banana. The lion sees himself in ridicule, but knows his camouflage act is over. He fears that all the little animals of the jungle get together around the monkey. It goes to prove that LOVE IS BETTER THAN VIOLENCE.

All the animals are allowed to drink from the Lions water-hole.
The conditions that apply are that they return the borrowed water
plus interest, right?

So how does the water volumn in the water-hole become the paid-back water plus the interest?

In essence the animals take a drink and then pee it back plus some that they didnt drink (borrow) right?

The animals lose water by the normal process of body function
(living) so they cant pee back what they borrowed and on top of that they have to find water to pay interest as well as replace what they used/lost.
So the animals have to go ( eg of work) to abtain the balance owing. Thus they have to trudge on their journey into another area to find water and bring it back and pee it into the Lions water-hole to clear their debts.

The journey takes its toll through thirst and evaporation/sweat,
so the task in greater than it should be. Those who dont have enough to pee the interest owning go into receivership ( meal ).
Some may be allowed to borrow short to pay whats outstanding
but this means the greater the burdon in the next cycle.

The water-hole isnt the work of the Lion, just the property of his power. The hole like natures energy isnt man made, its a depression in the land. The rain also cost the Lion nothing just as the Bankers create new money out of nothing. Yet the animal kingdom is in slavery simply because they dont see through the
game.

Who really owns the natural benefits of life and the world, the
ideas and capabilities of animals to work in unison for mutual
benefit (social credit) ? Not a private Lion nor a Public lion.

Gari-G:
Donq is more dangerous than he looks.
He's chosen the banana because they spray them with a solution that contains arsnic. He figures that when the Lion eventually dies it will die with a smile on its face and thus wont be suspected to be a homicide.

Woj:
You are objecting to the tyrany of choice that DonQ gives you.

Being of the communist culture where there is no experience of choice, you fear it as trick!
Remember Woj, under the communist state Lion you dont own your own pee!