I never got the impression that Ben "hated" Carlisle. Isn't that kinda extreme? But even if he did, it seemed fairly obvious that Ben respected him. In my opinion, thats all that mattered. I think their solidarity as a team reflected that. They seem to do a good job of seperating their realationship with the coach with how the coach was perceived by upper level management. By midseason everyone appeared to be drinking the I love coach kool-aid. So, the impression you have of the relationship between Carlisle/Brown and the players is COMPLETELY different from what I remember. I think you might need to take that break, mister, cause you must be smokin' somethin'. lol.

BTW, I agree with you that the players lost their edge, I just think that Flip contributed to that problem by his decision to let them basically police/coach themsleves. Bad move. The best class left unattended will most likely develop bad habits. Shame on Dumars too for not recognizing this. Still think he's the best GM in the league though, he has just reached a bad rough spot with a series of questionable decisions.

That being said, was it time for Ben to leave? Well, if Joe is committed to Flip (which he apparently is) I think the answer is definitely yes.

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It has been widely reported Ben and Carlisle didn't talk to each other the last couple of months of the season. Hate or not, that isn't a healthy relationship. Yes, our recollections seem to be very different. I mean both Carlisle and Brown were fired- so I guess it had to have been because there were no problems of any kind and everyone loved them. You apparently are the one on drugs.

Flip made many mistakes last season. The biggest I felt was poor goal setting. It was obvious he was more interested in winning meaningless regular season games than actually developing a deep, cohesive, and determined Championship caliber team. I knew we didn't have a chance just by looking at our rebounding and points in the paint stats. We were a jump shooting team and I can't remember the last time a finesse team won a championship. Luckily, those mistakes are easily remedied.

It has been widely reported Ben and Carlisle didn't talk to each other the last couple of months of the season. Hate or not, that isn't a healthy relationship. Yes, our recollections seem to be very different. I mean both Carlisle and Brown were fired- so I guess it had to have been because there were no problems of any kind and everyone loved them. You apparently are the one on drugs.

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Missing the point, my friend. The point was that there was a mutual respect and if there was indeed a rift between player and coach, it didn't appear to disrupt the cohesiveness of the team. Don't have to like, just respect the other guy to make it work. Not buying the whole "hate" thing still. I'm guessing you won't be talkin' to me after the drug comment, but I still got nothing but love for ya. And as I far as I know, the problems that lead to the dismissal of Carlisle and Brown were with upper managment not with the players. Maybe I was just imagining all of those hugs/handshakes to the opposing coach I saw during the Pacers/Knicks games.

Flip on the other hand, doesn't appear to have succeeded with the whole respect thing. Far from it. This showed when the players decided to get laxed, cocky and rebellious. Maybe he underestimated the impact devaluing Ben would have on this team.

Flip made many mistakes last season. The biggest I felt was poor goal setting. It was obvious he was more interested in winning meaningless regular season games than actually developing a deep, cohesive, and determined Championship caliber team. I knew we didn't have a chance just by looking at our rebounding and points in the paint stats. We were a jump shooting team and I can't remember the last time a finesse team won a championship. Luckily, those mistakes are easily remedied.

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Yep, I concur that he screwed up all those ways as well. His inability to lead the team was just one of them. (In my opinion the BIGGEST problem) As far as those things being easily remedied, I don't know how accurate that is. Seems to me that this would be a departure from Flip ball. I'm glad Flip has your confidence, cause he is going to need all the support he can get to prevent from getting canned. I would love for him to prove me wrong, but I'm not a Flip fan right now....obviously. I'd love for him to win me over though since Joe apparently still believes he is the right man for the job.

We did win 64-games with Flip and did make it to the Eastern Conference Finals. That is quite an accomplishment even though it cost us bench and youth development and corrupted our starters humble/hard-working approach to the game. We got beat by a hungrier more versatile team. You can't really blame the coach for that.

I doubt he told Rasheed to stay out of the paint, told Billups to never penetrate the lane, or told Ben to average career playoff lows in just about every stat category- including the worst FT% in the history of the league. Yes, Flip takes a lot of blame for poor playoff preparation and a seeming inability to micromanage the teams many personalities, but the team was still very close to making the Finals yet again. If the Pistons pull out Game 1 at home, and the refs don't give Miami every benefit of the doubt with the whistle it's a different series.

I doubt he told Rasheed to stay out of the paint, told Billups to never penetrate the lane, or told Ben to average career playoff lows in just about every stat category- including the worst FT% in the history of the league. Yes, Flip takes a lot of blame for poor playoff preparation and a seeming inability to micromanage the teams many personalities, but the team was still very close to making the Finals yet again. If the Pistons pull out Game 1 at home, and the refs don't give Miami every benefit of the doubt with the whistle it's a different series.

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Sure I buy that. The players ultimately proved Joe Dumars wrong. They obviously DO need to be motivated to perform like proffesionals and play with heart and determination. Their experience apparently was not enough to get them over the edge. So yes, they share blame...but, Flip's job is to make sure they never get into that postion.

I do however disagree about the refs. Miami just wanted it more. No referee was going to save us from that embarassment of a series. We needed an attitude transplant.

...a guarantee of more zone and an insistence on getting away from actual successful defensive principles....sweet:yukpuke:

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I actually don't know that I can follow the Pistons under Flip Saunders.I may have to take a one year hiatus and follow...say...The Knicks for example...it may be less painful for me. I can root for a Piston (Isiah Thomas) to save his career, and not watch Flip Saunders destroy my team.

I actually don't know that I can follow the Pistons under Flip Saunders.I may have to take a one year hiatus and follow...say...The Knicks for example...it may be less painful for me. I can root for a Piston (Isiah Thomas) to save his career, and not watch Flip Saunders destroy my team.

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If you want to watch a really exciting team where you can root for a former Piston, how about Orlando?

I actually don't know that I can follow the Pistons under Flip Saunders.I may have to take a one year hiatus and follow...say...The Knicks for example...it may be less painful for me. I can root for a Piston (Isiah Thomas) to save his career, and not watch Flip Saunders destroy my team.

Sounds like a plan.

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learn how to play nba live 07 and make the pistons do whatever you want.

The one thing Ben may have been better at than defense was leading this team through anything that came in his way. He didn't do that last year, actually he probably made this team fall when a problem came up.

1. Isn't it likely that the Pistons organization wants us - the fans - to turn against Ben Wallace? And wouldn't disparaging newpaper articles about Wallace help to turn the tide?

I'm not denying that Ben was probably leading a type of mutiny last season. But I was on his side, as were many of you. So don't let the beat writers manipulate you into believing Ben was the bad guy.

2. No matter what you think about Flip Saunders, it is good news to hear that he's putting his foot down. We will never win anything with a passive leader.

3. On zone defense....without Ben Wallace, I don't care what we do on defense so long as it stops the competition. I prefer Man, but without Ben this becomes a lot less important to me. Guys like Nazr and even Dice might be liabilities in straight-up man defense.

God help me for more-or-less defending the principles of zone defense, but isn't this how Europe/South America continues to defeat the US in global competition?

I actually don't know that I can follow the Pistons under Flip Saunders.I may have to take a one year hiatus and follow...say...The Knicks for example...it may be less painful for me. I can root for a Piston (Isiah Thomas) to save his career, and not watch Flip Saunders destroy my team.

Sounds like a plan.

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Me and the Low are in absolute agreement. Of all the things that went wrong last year, Flip seems to believe it was because the team wouldn't listen to him and play zone?

We're dead. And Chris "Coach Kissup" McCoskey failed to ask him about any of the other problems like, not playing a bench, not using DMC or Delfino, playing the starters too many minutes, not using Delk in the playoffs, relying too much on Moles, and not making any adjustments in the playoffs.

So here's my prediction, starters average 37+mpg, Dice averages 35 mpg. Hunter and Murray get the rest of the minutes. Tay, Rip, Delfino, JMax, and Amir demand trades. CB signs with the Knicks. And Dice retires.

Motown, I agree with virtually everything you said in this thread. Excellent posts.

As for the article linked by Roscoe at the start of this thread, I thought that the following comment by Flip was typical of his weakness and lack of forthrightness and effectiveness in dealing with the hard issues: "Even though we won 64 games last year, there were things I think we could have done better."

Instead of coming up with an another excuse to mention the regular season record, and instead of pretending that this is the area where improvement is needed next season, Flip would have come off far better if he had talked about: 1) what went wrong in the playoffs; 2) what "could have [been] done better" in the playoffs; and 3) how he intends to get the Pistons back to '04 and '05 playoff form.

1. Isn't it likely that the Pistons organization wants us - the fans - to turn against Ben Wallace? And wouldn't disparaging newpaper articles about Wallace help to turn the tide?

I'm not denying that Ben was probably leading a type of mutiny last season. But I was on his side, as were many of you. So don't let the beat writers manipulate you into believing Ben was the bad guy.

2. No matter what you think about Flip Saunders, it is good news to hear that he's putting his foot down. We will never win anything with a passive leader.

3. On zone defense....without Ben Wallace, I don't care what we do on defense so long as it stops the competition. I prefer Man, but without Ben this becomes a lot less important to me. Guys like Nazr and even Dice might be liabilities in straight-up man defense.

God help me for more-or-less defending the principles of zone defense, but isn't this how Europe/South America continues to defeat the US in global competition?

LOL @ Riley being ``zone man'', nod @ The Low. I agree, I hate Flip more every time he opens up his mouth. I hope we get back to Pistons DNA soon, this dalliance with balletball is frightening and uncomfortable.

I think Terry Porter and Dave Cowens in as assistants will reinforce head up gritty defense. No so much Cowens, but Terry Porter I have always respected because of his hard nose style.

Dave Cowens can be the guy who could push the big guys, he was not a push over when he played in the NBA.

I will always love and respect Ben Wallace. However, I was one of those people who absolutely hated when Ben used to whine to the refs, he was beginning to make Rasheed look passive with the refs for a while.

I respect Ben for his defensive prowess and what he gave to the city of Detroit and wanted him to be a Piston for life. It wasn't in the cards, I agree with Griff regarding Ben. I believe Ben did try to pull the old Mutiny play. I really don't think that this info would have came out if he still was in Detroit, it just would not have been right.

Bottom line, we will never, ever know what did and did not transpire in the Pistons locker room. Ben could have been more docile than Ghandi or more disruptive than Terrrell Owens on a good day. The only thing we know for sure is what Ben's attitude was like on the court.

Will we remember him as he appeared 2 years ago when we won the championship, or will we remember him as the pouting, non-free throw shooting that sometimes appeared to be deliberate misses, the Ben who cussed out his coach, refused to go in the game and caused disharmony. With the exception of the disharmony piece, all of the other variables we have witnessed including that dominating Ben who controlled the paint.

My opinon and this is just an opinion only; Ben wanted out, he wanted to play a certain style, the Coach said no, Ben said I don't want to play with you anymore. He tried to get other players on his side, it splintered the group which led to dissension even though they tried to keep up appearances in the media. As a result, they fell apart in the playoffs, everyone wanted to do their on thing, Flip couldn't and didn't reel them in and I think he was clueless because he didn't execute his leadership at the beginning of the season.

Things got totally out of hand, Rasheed was shooting three pointers all over the place, CB & Rip lost all focus, Ben cussed out the coach and refused to go in the game, McDyess, Ben and Sheed cussed out the coach, Sidney Lowe was beefing with Flip, the bench wanted to play, but the starters had already dictated how much they were going to play because after all, they were championship caliber, some players were unwilling to come out and wanted to play the full 48 minutes. Flip wanted to play Zone, the players wanted to play man.

What a mess, while all the time everyone including myself thought that the Pistons were tighter than a dry peanut butter sandwich on stale bread.

I am pumped and ready for the season to start, I am with the pistons, no matter who is coaching. If my 80 year old mother is appointed coach, knowing full well the pistons don't have a chance in you know what. That's loyalty baby, take it from a person who follow the lowly Lions every single week for the past 40 years. Need I say more.