IWB Question

This is a discussion on IWB Question within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm 3 weeks new to my CCW license and have a question. Right now I have 1 IWB holster for my primary CCW that I ...

IWB Question

I'm 3 weeks new to my CCW license and have a question. Right now I have 1 IWB holster for my primary CCW that I usually wear a fleece pullover since its winter and it stays concealed. However, I live in WV and work in VA where both OC is legal. If I take off my fleece this exposes my weapon, but its IWB, so only 1/2 of it is exposed. Would this be considered OC or would it be an issue of exposing a CCW.

Fairly certain that classifies as open carry - exposing part of a concealed weapon (tucking a shirt BEHIND the grip of an IWB soas to show the grip) is somewhat common practice in VA to avoid the "no concealed carry where alcohol is served" law.

I wouldnt wory about it since both states are OC.As far as I can remember ther is no problem in va about exposing a CC gun. No body will probable notice anyway. I've open carried with my IWB and friends didn't even noticed.

IMOH taking off the overshirt is taking away the element of surprise. The whole reason for CC is to look like your agerage "Joe Shmo" and Indescriminent to the potentail BG. I personally only OC at the range.

IMOH taking off the overshirt is taking away the element of surprise. The whole reason for CC is to look like your agerage "Joe Shmo" and Indescriminent to the potentail BG. I personally only OC at the range.

OK, that's great and all, but what does it have to do with the topic of the thread? Hey guess what! I like Ketchup.

If anyone plans on starting the BS CC vs. OC debate, it's going to get deleted.

Regarding VA and exposing a CCW, I can see this is going to turn into a brandishing thread. An exposed firearm in an open carry state is NOT brandishing and is OK.

I have the law for brandishing in VA posted in my blog on brandishing, I have taken a look at WV, but as stated it's an open carry state it shouldn't matter but their code regarding brandishing is a little "funny"

§61-7-11. Brandishing deadly weapons; threatening or causing breach of the peace; criminal penalties.
It shall be unlawful for any person armed with a firearm or other deadly weapon, whether licensed to carry the same or not, to carry, brandish or use such weapon in a way or manner to cause, or threaten, a breach of the peace. Any person violating this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not less than fifty nor more than one thousand dollars, or shall be confined in the county jail not less than ninety days nor more than one year, or both.

Ok, so what is "breach of peace"?

Again, the Free Dictionary, defines it as follows:

breach of the peace
Noun
Law an offence against public order causing an unnecessary disturbance of the peace

I could not locate the WV definition of “Breach of the peace” my search skills must be lacking.

§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.

C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.

I'd guess it's just open carry. Something I'd check into is how your laws are worded regarding brandishing. First, I know that's not your intent, but some of these statutes are pretty strange as to what can be considered "brandishing" vs plain old open carry. Here, exposing a firearm with the intent to scare, intimidate [fill in some more] gets the police showing up and it's pretty much their call. So, if a third party "feels" threatened, it might be you get to explain it all to the law. Again, I'd just check so you'll have the knowledge up front. May be that VA doesn't even have such a charge.

Oops. Sorry. JD has this all covered.

Last edited by David III; January 29th, 2009 at 10:08 AM.
Reason: JD posted --

Not trying to divert the OP topic, but the thread questions brings another question to my mind. Don't VA and WV reciprocate each others concealed carry license/permits?

Visiting HandgunlawUS, it LOOKS to me as though they do.

Just bringing this up as with the OP being very new to the license, maybe he/she is unaware of reciprocity? (It could happen).

From the sounds of it, the IWB should constitute open carry. What you'd want to research would be each State's definition of open carry (or concealed carry conversely) if they define either. That should tell the tale.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.

Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:

...

J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of § 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of § 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of § 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of § 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of § 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.

A person who wishes to carry a concealed handgun must obtain a license. A license is not required for
a person to own a handgun, keep it in his or her home, place of business or other real property. No license
is necessary to visibly carry a handgun if the person may lawfully possess a firearm.

They define "Concealed" in the above linked PDF as

(10) "Concealed" means hidden from ordinary observation so as to prevent disclosure or recognition. A
deadly weapon is concealed when it is carried on or about the person in such a manner that another person
in the ordinary course of events would not be placed on notice that the deadly weapon was being carried.

Just did a little "quick' research. So far, only thing pertinent or interesting I've found is that While it's legal to open carry in WV, and State Law does preempt Local Laws, there are some areas that have Local Laws that are "Grandfathered" and still effective (were in effect before open carry became legal?). Charleston was listed as one such municipality.

No time to do much in depth right now. My source for above was a State page for WV at OpenCarry.org.

I was told by my CCW instructor that, at least here in AZ, open carry is *completely* open carry, not just the buttstock visible. I'd get the definitive answer for your state before I carried in that manner.

I am aware of reciprocity, but what got me thinking about this issue is in VA you can't CC in a place that serves alcohol. Also, sometimes when i wear my fleece I get hot and need to take it off. I've always been told that CC and OC are two different things and that it is illegal to "expose" a CC weapon. Just didn't know if an IWB that wasn't covered was still OC or if it was "exposing" a CCW. THanks for all the responses.