This one will not be excused by odd schedule situations or a tough matchup. The Knicks suck, they are disfunctional and the Pacers just had two home games with plenty of time to rest the starters and then a day off before the road game. There are some road games you lose, more than you win for most teams, but at MSG has not been one of them for playoff teams with reasonable rest.

Thank god I went to the Black Keys concert instead because watching a game like this live would p*** me off enough to go PFFL or Peck or whatever fed up, grumpy, "I hate this team" knee jerk reaction you want.

This isn't just "one game" or an expected road loss or bad circumstances. This was 100% inexcusable and embarrassing. Some of these guys need to man up and play ball in the face of adversity. Not all, but some.

This one will not be excused by odd schedule situations or a tough matchup. The Knicks suck, they are disfunctional and the Pacers just had two home games with plenty of time to rest the starters and then a day off before the road game. There are some road games you lose, more than you win for most teams, but at MSG has not been one of them for playoff teams with reasonable rest.

Thank god I went to the Black Keys concert instead because watching a game like this live would p*** me off enough to go PFFL or Peck or whatever fed up, grumpy, "I hate this team" knee jerk reaction you want.

This isn't just "one game" or an expected road loss or bad circumstances. This was 100% inexcusable and embarrassing. Some of these guys need to man up and play ball in the face of adversity. Not all, but some.

I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated, no one was against getting Kaman, BUT AT THE RIGHT PRICE!

vnzla81

03-16-2012, 11:11 PM

This will be the shortest odd thoughts in recent memory.

Tyson Chandler = Wilt Chamberlain

Roy Hibbert = Bozo the Clown

That is all.

http://eviljwinter.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/kicknuts.jpg

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Shade

03-16-2012, 11:16 PM

Welcome back to the Darkside, Peck.

Btw, we're out of cookies.

Hibbert

03-16-2012, 11:16 PM

http://basketballvalue.com/topunits.php?year=

Oddly enough, we have the top unit in league in terms of plus/minus

Naptown_Seth

03-16-2012, 11:23 PM

I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated, no one was against getting Kaman, BUT AT THE RIGHT PRICE!
Which based on NEED is a 24th pick and Tyler.

Like if you need a poison antidote to keep from dying in 10 minutes and you go "yes I need it, BUT AT THE RIGHT PRICE". Well congrats on saving that money, would you like your widow to get it or charity?

At some point you have to ask "what are you saving FOR?" Aren't you trying to assemble talent that can push for a title? Well pick 24 will not put you closer to that next year with this group of players, but Kaman would.

I do believe in building for the future but I also believe in COMPLETING THE PROJECT when the future arrives. You can't just stay in "building for the future mode", eventually it needs to result in having a set of title caliber vets making a run. By the time pick 24 becomes an all-star West and Danny will be long gone, and probably DC too.

Or if it's a normal #24 pick then he never becomes an all-star and doesn't turn the team around by himself or really address many questions beyond what your 8th man is doing.

TheDavisBrothers

03-16-2012, 11:29 PM

Which based on NEED is a 24th pick and Tyler.

Like if you need a poison antidote to keep from dying in 10 minutes and you go "yes I need it, BUT AT THE RIGHT PRICE". Well congrats on saving that money, would you like your widow to get it or charity?

At some point you have to ask "what are you saving FOR?" Aren't you trying to assemble talent that can push for a title? Well pick 24 will not put you closer to that next year with this group of players, but Kaman would.

I do believe in building for the future but I also believe in COMPLETING THE PROJECT when the future arrives. You can't just stay in "building for the future mode", eventually it needs to result in having a set of title caliber vets making a run. By the time pick 24 becomes an all-star West and Danny will be long gone, and probably DC too.

Or if it's a normal #24 pick then he never becomes an all-star and doesn't turn the team around by himself or really address many questions beyond what your 8th man is doing.

Your extreme example is a bit rediculous...

What it comes down to is, does Kaman make us a legit championship contender this year? IMO he doesn't and I don't think many think he does. If you think he does, then that's fine we'll agree to disagree...

PGisthefuture

03-16-2012, 11:32 PM

Which based on NEED is a 24th pick and Tyler.

Like if you need a poison antidote to keep from dying in 10 minutes and you go "yes I need it, BUT AT THE RIGHT PRICE". Well congrats on saving that money, would you like your widow to get it or charity?

At some point you have to ask "what are you saving FOR?" Aren't you trying to assemble talent that can push for a title? Well pick 24 will not put you closer to that next year with this group of players, but Kaman would.

I do believe in building for the future but I also believe in COMPLETING THE PROJECT when the future arrives. You can't just stay in "building for the future mode", eventually it needs to result in having a set of title caliber vets making a run. By the time pick 24 becomes an all-star West and Danny will be long gone, and probably DC too.

Or if it's a normal #24 pick then he never becomes an all-star and doesn't turn the team around by himself or really address many questions beyond what your 8th man is doing.

Well I don't want to get anybody against me or whatever, but at the end of the day we can't change Larry's mind. The trade deadline has come and passed and we don't have Kaman. I wanted Kaman too, but a first rounder in this upcoming draft that is supposed to be deep isn't worth renting Kaman for half of a shortened season. Who knows that pick could be a missing piece for us. Wasn't Rondo picked 21st? Wasn't Gilbert Arenas picked in the 2nd round? Heck, Danny and Roy weren't even Lottery picks either. The Spurs come to mind and I think Larry is modeling this team after them in a way. They draft guys and mold them into their system while keeping their core guys. Kawhi Leonard is playing a solid role for them as a rookie and they are 2nd in the West. Let's be realistic we aren't winning the championship this year, making it to the second round is a realistic goal. We need to keep adding guys to grow with our nucleus. Next year we could be one of the top teams in the league. It will just take some time.

vnzla81

03-16-2012, 11:32 PM

@briancmahoney: Elsewhere at MSG, Vogel had no comment about exchange with JR Smith. Baron expects hamstring to be OK in a few days.

PR07

03-16-2012, 11:33 PM

@briancmahoney: Elsewhere at MSG, Vogel had no comment about exchange with JR Smith. Baron expects hamstring to be OK in a few days.

Didn't watch the game. What happened with Vogel and JR?

PGisthefuture

03-16-2012, 11:34 PM

@briancmahoney: Elsewhere at MSG, Vogel had no comment about exchange with JR Smith. Baron expects hamstring to be OK in a few days.

What "exchange" is he talking about?

Hibbert

03-16-2012, 11:36 PM

Which based on NEED is a 24th pick and Tyler.

Like if you need a poison antidote to keep from dying in 10 minutes and you go "yes I need it, BUT AT THE RIGHT PRICE". Well congrats on saving that money, would you like your widow to get it or charity?

At some point you have to ask "what are you saving FOR?" Aren't you trying to assemble talent that can push for a title? Well pick 24 will not put you closer to that next year with this group of players, but Kaman would.

I do believe in building for the future but I also believe in COMPLETING THE PROJECT when the future arrives. You can't just stay in "building for the future mode", eventually it needs to result in having a set of title caliber vets making a run. By the time pick 24 becomes an all-star West and Danny will be long gone, and probably DC too.

Or if it's a normal #24 pick then he never becomes an all-star and doesn't turn the team around by himself or really address many questions beyond what your 8th man is doing.
We will need that pick this summer. Were not a contender with Kaman on this team so why give NO what they wanted(a first round pick) when we could very well get lucky and get a good player in the draft. We won't be picking 24th either. It wasn't worth it, no expiring would be worth a first round pick unless it makes you an instant contender. People act like were contenders when realistically were a first round exit at this time. Currently we'd have the 21st pick but expect that to drop a few spots and look what we've gotten from two #17 picks......

beast23

03-16-2012, 11:36 PM

I could be wrong here (but of course I'm not) we would have gotten Kaman without any assurances whatsoever that he would re-sign with us this summer. Giving up two important assets (24th pick and Tyler) under such circumstances would be ridiculous.

vnzla81

03-16-2012, 11:39 PM

Didn't watch the game. What happened with Vogel and JR?

I don't know.

Pacerfan

03-16-2012, 11:45 PM

Maybe he was just talking about this?

Brian Mahoney ‏ @briancmahoney Close
JR Smith with a tech for taunting after dunk. So he's yanked, waving off Pacers coach Vogel as he walks off. #alotofbadwiththegood

wintermute

03-17-2012, 06:30 AM

http://basketballvalue.com/topunits.php?year=

Oddly enough, we have the top unit in league in terms of plus/minus

Top in minutes, not in results. That's the Overall Rtg column.

Still, a +10.79/100 possessions is not a bad rating for such a heavy minutes unit. There's something to be said for stability as well. Not to mention being lucky with injuries. No one's mentioned it much before, but the Pacers have been pretty injury free. Only core guy to miss significant time is George Hill. And Foster, if you consider him a core guy.

Unclebuck

03-17-2012, 07:28 AM

This will be the shortest odd thoughts in recent memory.

Tyson Chandler = Wilt Chamberlain

Roy Hibbert = Bozo the Clown

That is all.

http://eviljwinter.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/kicknuts.jpg

That was the game in a nutshell. Chandler not only shut down and diminish Roy to child like status, he also took the whole Pacers team out of it through his intimidation. I really thought it was one of the best individual performances against the Pacers this season.

Damn I always wanted Chandler on the Pacers, he is the rare defender who is great one on one and great playing team defense in the lane.

Ok so we know that Chandler and Marc Gasol completely shuts Roy down

Sparhawk

03-17-2012, 07:51 AM

Pretty sad that the bench has outplayed the starters the past 3 freaking games.

Starters...man up! ****!

BillS

03-17-2012, 09:15 AM

I suppose some successful outside shooting might have kept us in it as well, and that's what Barbosa can come in for a few minutes and turn around?

No?

What if I point out that the Knicks were able to put 4 (yes FOUR) bodies in the lane for rebounds and block outs the entire game because they really had no need to guard anyone outside 10 feet?

Still no?

OK, then, go back to blaming Roy for the loss.

BillS

03-17-2012, 09:21 AM

Now that the first rant is out of the way...

The Pacers came onto the floor like they were going to be playing the #16 seed in the NCAA Div 3 tournament, not like they were going to be playing an NBA team. They were a step or more behind the bulk of the first quarter, and by the time they realized this wasn't going to be some sort of easy cakewalk it was far too late.

I was scolded by my wife for being a pessimist when we were down 8 and I said we'd be down by 30 before the game was over.

I've railed against people who said the team didn't care on the floor in past games, but this one seemed obvious even to me. None of the starters wanted to be on that floor tonight, and if I had been Vogel they'd have gotten their wish after the first 5 minutes.

Hicks

03-17-2012, 09:28 AM

I guess the question running through my mind is: Why did they act that way?

BringJackBack

03-17-2012, 09:34 AM

We will need that pick this summer. Were not a contender with Kaman on this team so why give NO what they wanted(a first round pick) when we could very well get lucky and get a good player in the draft. We won't be picking 24th either. It wasn't worth it, no expiring would be worth a first round pick unless it makes you an instant contender. People act like were contenders when realistically were a first round exit at this time. Currently we'd have the 21st pick but expect that to drop a few spots and look what we've gotten from two #17 picks......

THANK YOU!

Kstat

03-17-2012, 09:37 AM

I guess the question running through my mind is: Why did they act that way?

You can chalk it up to just falling asleep on the front end of a back to back on the road. It's the NBA, unexplainable things just tend to happen over a grueling season.

If they do the same thing tonight, that's different.

I guess I'm just not a big fan of reading too much into one regular season game. If the same thing keeps happening over a 3-4 games, then I'll put some stock into it.

BillS

03-17-2012, 09:39 AM

You can chalk it up to just falling asleep on the front end of a back to back on the road. It's the NBA, unexplainable things just tend to happen over a grueling season.

If they do the same thing tonight, that's different.

:pray:

They do that in front of the first sold out home crowd in months and I'll plotz.

Pacer Fan

03-17-2012, 09:39 AM

Glad we get the chance for redemption in our house against the same team in 24 hours.

Johanvil

03-17-2012, 10:25 AM

We are so hit and miss this season.I can only guess that it's not down any more to being a young team and the congested schedule but maybe it has to do that we are simply not good enough to maintain an acceptable level of consistency.

Peck

03-17-2012, 10:58 AM

You can chalk it up to just falling asleep on the front end of a back to back on the road. It's the NBA, unexplainable things just tend to happen over a grueling season.

If they do the same thing tonight, that's different.

I guess I'm just not a big fan of reading too much into one regular season game. If the same thing keeps happening over a 3-4 games, then I'll put some stock into it.

Well one could argue that this has been the norm for a month and that that the two games of decent play (Blazers, 76ers) is the anomoly.

Isaac

03-17-2012, 10:59 AM

Chi-NY flights are super cheap these days so I was going to fly out for this game, and fly back this morning. Really glad I didn't.

Kstat

03-17-2012, 10:59 AM

Well one could argue that this has been the norm for a month and that that the two games of decent play (Blazers, 76ers) is the anomoly.

...then from that you'd infer that water has simply found it's level. Beating teams with less talent, losing to teams with more. The offense is not good enough to score with teams they can't but the screws to.

I wouldn't go that far, though. I'm not sure there's enough evidence to that effect.

graphic-er

03-17-2012, 11:06 AM

I think it all comes down to shot selection in the 1st quarter. Knicks were getting easy run outs because Pacers took terrible shots, and terrible passes. They need to start off the game actually running an offense where they pass the ball and try to swing it side to side. Get everyone moving.

Peck

03-17-2012, 11:22 AM

...then from that you'd infer that water has simply found it's level. Beating teams with less talent, losing to teams with more. The offense is not good enough to score with teams they can't but the screws to.

I wouldn't go that far, though. I'm not sure there's enough evidence to that effect.

Still a little early but sadly, yes I think we are starting to see that trend develop.

We'll see if Barbosa makes a difference. Somebody, anybody, hitting some shots on our team would help cure a lot of ills.

Kstat

03-17-2012, 11:26 AM

Still a little early but sadly, yes I think we are starting to see that trend develop.

We'll see if Barbosa makes a difference. Somebody, anybody, hitting some shots on our team would help cure a lot of ills.

The problem is someone still has to throw the right pass.

BrownBearCoffee

03-17-2012, 11:28 AM

I know I can't share the optimism that many of you seem to have after this severe flogging, although I can understand it somewhat. I guess my new question is, how is everyone going to react if the same exact thing happens in front of a sold-out field house tonight? I would have to think that would be some cause for alarm.

I know I can't share the optimism that many of you seem to have after this severe flogging, although I can understand it somewhat. I guess my new question is, how is everyone going to react if the same exact thing happens in front of a sold-out field house tonight? I would have to think that would be some cause for alarm.

Well....yeah. But what if they win by 30? No point in going over hypotheticals.

Peck

03-17-2012, 11:32 AM

The problem is someone still has to throw the right pass.

touche

BrownBearCoffee

03-17-2012, 11:35 AM

Well....yeah. But what if they win by 30? No point in going over hypotheticals.

Point taken.

Nuntius

03-17-2012, 12:13 PM

People act like were contenders when realistically were a first round exit at this time.

We are not contenders (we never were just in case someone got fooled) but we're not a first round exit either.

Nuntius

03-17-2012, 12:17 PM

You can chalk it up to just falling asleep on the front end of a back to back on the road. It's the NBA, unexplainable things just tend to happen over a grueling season.

If they do the same thing tonight, that's different.

I guess I'm just not a big fan of reading too much into one regular season game. If the same thing keeps happening over a 3-4 games, then I'll put some stock into it.

Have I told you how much I appreciate your posts? We need your neutrality :)

Hibbert

03-17-2012, 12:22 PM

We are not contenders (we never were just in case someone got fooled) but we're not a first round exit either.

That's your opinion and up above was mine. At this current moment I think we our, in fact, a first round exit. In the playoffs it's all about consistency and right now we don't have any of that at all. If we can figure it out by the time playoffs arrive than I believe we can win a series, maybe even two but right now we wouldn't stand a chance.

Nuntius

03-17-2012, 12:31 PM

That's your opinion and up above was mine. At this current moment I think we our, in fact, a first round exit. In the playoffs it's all about consistency and right now we don't have any of that at all. If we can figure it out by the time playoffs arrive than I believe we can win a series, maybe even two but right now we wouldn't stand a chance.

Well, both are certainly opinions. You're right here.

You're also right that we lack consistency. But guess what. Our playoff opponents lack consistency as well.

Now, if we manage to fall to the 6th seed and face the Magic in the playoffs I'll say that we're a first round exit. But if we face the Sixers as we're portrayed to do at the moment our chances are going to be equal.

spazzxb

03-17-2012, 12:36 PM

Which based on NEED is a 24th pick and Tyler.

Like if you need a poison antidote to keep from dying in 10 minutes and you go "yes I need it, BUT AT THE RIGHT PRICE". Well congrats on saving that money, would you like your widow to get it or charity?

At some point you have to ask "what are you saving FOR?" Aren't you trying to assemble talent that can push for a title? Well pick 24 will not put you closer to that next year with this group of players, but Kaman would.

I do believe in building for the future but I also believe in COMPLETING THE PROJECT when the future arrives. You can't just stay in "building for the future mode", eventually it needs to result in having a set of title caliber vets making a run. By the time pick 24 becomes an all-star West and Danny will be long gone, and probably DC too.

Or if it's a normal #24 pick then he never becomes an all-star and doesn't turn the team around by himself or really address many questions beyond what your 8th man is doing.

For a rental, really? Mortgaging the future is dumb. Have some patience.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

PGisthefuture

03-17-2012, 12:37 PM

Well, both are certainly opinions. You're right here.

You're also right that we lack consistency. But guess what. Our playoff opponents lack consistency as well.

Now, if we manage to fall to the 6th seed and face the Magic in the playoffs I'll say that we're a first round exit. But if we face the Sixers as we're portrayed to do at the moment our chances are going to be equal.

I think if we are faced with the Magic, Hawks, Heat, or Bulls we can almost bet that we will be a first round exit. Anybody else we have a solid chance at beating. The Magic and Hawks are obviously not as big of a threat, but we have always struggled with them. The Hawks are probably the team we have the best chance at out of those four.

Nuntius

03-17-2012, 12:45 PM

I think if we are faced with the Magic, Hawks, Heat, or Bulls we can almost bet that we will be a first round exit. Anybody else we have a solid chance at beating. The Magic and Hawks are obviously not as big of a threat, but we have always struggled with them. The Hawks are probably the team we have the best chance at out of those four.

I can see why you would say this about the Magic. I don't see it about the Hawks though. The Hawks are more inconsistent than us. We just catched them twice in one of their good days and once in one of their bad days.

However, everyone in the East except the Bulls and the Heat is fair game. Even the Magic are fair game even though we would be the underdogs of this match up.

That's why I cannot say that we're a first round exit yet. I'll judge when the regular season ends and our seed and matchup are determined.

Peck

03-17-2012, 01:02 PM

For a rental, really? Mortgaging the future is dumb. Have some patience.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

I'm not saying I agree with Seth, I certainly would not have given them Tyler with a 1st round pick.

But what he is saying is that Kaman would be better than any pick in the low 20's in next years draft (most likely, on rare occasions you can find a good player that low but even then generally it takes a couple of years for them to show up).

Kaman would have given you immediate help at the big spot & it would have put you in the catbird seat of being able to evaluate if you wanted to sign him next season or not (or frankly if you wanted to put to much money into Roy).

Like I said I'm not saying I agree with him but I would hardly call a draft pick in the 20's for a starting caliber center as mortgaging the future.

Peck

03-17-2012, 01:07 PM

I can see why you would say this about the Magic. I don't see it about the Hawks though. The Hawks are more inconsistent than us. We just catched them twice in one of their good days and once in one of their bad days.

However, everyone in the East except the Bulls and the Heat is fair game. Even the Magic are fair game even though we would be the underdogs of this match up.

That's why I cannot say that we're a first round exit yet. I'll judge when the regular season ends and our seed and matchup are determined.

Go look at our win loss record vs. the Hawks for the past 4 years and you will see why he said that.

Nuntius

03-17-2012, 01:10 PM

Go look at our win loss record vs. the Hawks for the past 4 years and you will see why he said that.

Yeah, I know. We have a bad tradition against the Hawks. However, tradition does not play basketball. The team we have now is not the team we had for the past 4 years. The Hawks are not the same either.

You just cannot judge the present based on the past. Not when the things have changed, at least.

Dos pesos.

Kid Minneapolis

03-17-2012, 01:42 PM

Here's what I think:

I think underachieving teams that go through coaching changes, always ALWAYS play out of their minds for about 5 games after the change. And that's what we just faced last night. NY was a team in turmoil, they changed their coach, and I saw this comin' by a mile. They blew out Portland by 40-something, then us last night, and I predict they will a few more games, and then come back down to earth.

And ya, Indy didn't play very well either.

spazzxb

03-17-2012, 02:04 PM

I'm not saying I agree with Seth, I certainly would not have given them Tyler with a 1st round pick.

But what he is saying is that Kaman would be better than any pick in the low 20's in next years draft (most likely, on rare occasions you can find a good player that low but even then generally it takes a couple of years for them to show up).

Kaman would have given you immediate help at the big spot & it would have put you in the catbird seat of being able to evaluate if you wanted to sign him next season or not (or frankly if you wanted to put to much money into Roy).

Like I said I'm not saying I agree with him but I would hardly call a draft pick in the 20's for a starting caliber center as mortgaging the future.

I guess if your considering getting rid of, or benching, ROY it makes a little sense, however Kaman is going to start somewhere next season. My issue is the rental. I also don't see us giving up on Roy and Kaman is to old to be part of our long term future(PG in his prime). I think Seth was being very short sighted.

Peck

03-17-2012, 02:12 PM

I guess if your considering getting rid of, or benching, ROY it makes a little sense, however Kaman is going to start somewhere next season. My issue is the rental. I also don't see us giving up on Roy and Kaman is to old to be part of our long term future(PG in his prime). I think Seth was being very short sighted.

Like I said I don't know if I agree with him on this, I don't certainly agree in giving them Tyler & a 1st. But to be honest I wouldn't mind having another option for this summer. If Roy's asking price goes to far north of where his real value is it would be nice to not have to be stuck.

No matter how bad he is playing I still believe he is going to get paid. He has played his way down from the max contract he probably could have gotten 20-25 games into the season, but he is still going to be north of the 10 million mark.