Russian troop presence in Crimea compared to what Germans did in Sudetenland in 1938

Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird has compared Russia's troop presence in Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula to Hitler's invasion of Sudetenland, a part of the former Czechoslovakia, in 1938.

Baird, speaking to host Evan Solomon on CBC News Network's Power & Politics, accused Russia of invading and occupying Crimea, a part of Ukraine. "If it's not war, it's akin to war," he said.

At first, Baird said the situation was "right out of the Cold War." When Solomon pointed out Putin claims he is protecting Russian rights in Crimea, which has a majority of Russian-speaking citizens, Baird said, "The Sudetenland had a majority of Germans. That gave Germany no right to do this in the late 1930s."

Asked by Solomon if he was making a comparison to the Nazis, Baird replied, "When you have one country invading one of its neighbours, and using this type of outrageous and ludicrous rhetoric, it's hard not to."

Baird noted that no Russian in Crimea has been killed during the protests in Ukraine.

In 1938, Hitler sent in troops to occupy Sudetenland, a region on Germany's border populated largely by Sudeten Germans. The takeover was one of the precursors of the Second World War.

Government monitors Ukraine crisis

Baird's comments came after a series of events that show the Canadian government is actively monitoring the crisis in Ukraine, with Prime Minister Stephen Harper speaking to Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the interim prime minister of Ukraine, this morning.

The Prime Minister's Office released a statement about Harper's phone conversation. "He expressed to Prime Minister Yatsenyuk that Ukraines sovereignty and territorial integrity must be respected and that the Ukrainian people must be free to determine their own future."

But we must fear the Ukes because Neo-Nazis have been spotted among them!

I've noticed a disturbing number of pro-Russia freepers carrying this same message on behalf of Moscow. I guess all Putin has to do is call someone a 'fascist' and that makes anything he does okay. Pretty sad reasoning.

Sudetenland was never part of Germany. Soon after taking it, the Nazis took over the rest of Czechoslovakia. The Soviet Union had a defense pact with the Czechs, but Britain and France folded. Nazis’ Lebensraum philosophy was that the master race would take over all Eastern Europe.

Crimea was Russian since 1783. Not seeking to incorporate any other nations within Russia.

1853: The Crimean War began, lasting three years. Russia lost to an alliance of the Ottoman Empire, France, Britain and Sardinia. Crimea remained part of Russia.

1917: Crimea briefly became a sovereign state before becoming a base for the White Army of anti-Bolshevik forces in the Russian War.

1921: The peninsula, now called the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, became part of the Soviet Union.

1942: Nazi Germany took control of Crimea.

1944: Joesph Stalin forcibly deported all Muslim Tatars, a group of 300,000 who had lived on the peninsula for centuries, due to members alleged cooperation with Germany during World War II. Many returned to Crimea in the 1980s and 1990s.

1945: After World War II, the autonomous Soviet republic was dissolved and Crimea became a province of the Soviet Union called the Crimean Oblast.

1954: Russian Premier Nikita Khrushchev transferred the Crimean Oblast to Ukraine. Its often reported that it was a gesture of goodwill from Khrushchev, who had Ukrainian roots.

1991: The Soviet Union collapsed. Many expected President Boris Yeltsin, the new president of the Russian Federation, to take Crimea for Russia. But he didnt bring it up during negotiations with Ukraine.

1997: Ukraine and Russia signed a treaty that allowed Russia to keep its fleet in Sevastopol. The agreements since been extended, so the fleet is set to remain there until at least 2042.

20
posted on 03/04/2014 1:33:18 PM PST
by olezip
(Time obliterates the fictions of opinion and confirms the decisions of nature. ~ Cicero)

I've noticed a disturbing number of pro-Russia freepers carrying this same message on behalf of Moscow. I guess all Putin has to do is call someone a 'fascist' and that makes anything he does okay. Pretty sad reasoning.

There are over 800 member companies in the American Chamber of Commerce in Russia.

Boeing (a key US defense contractor) brags about having operated in Russia since 1972.

In neocon land Russia is "the big bear enemy", but in the American business and financial world, Russia is a business partner.

Hundreds of US businesses also have business operations inside Ukraine.

Since 1991, the pace of both Russia's and Ukraine's business and trade with the US has greatly increased.

Very weird that Americans would think of these two nations as our enemies.

Well, except for the elites' constant brainwashing of generations of American conservative rank-and-file, which until recently I was wholeheartedly one of.

I'm not pro-Russian at all, my family has been in American since the 1600's; I am an American through-and-through.

I've just woken up to the idea that I was being a bit foolish responding to every call to hatred and anger towards perceived international "enemies", and that the real enemies are the transnational elites that are calling the shots and have the nation (well, pretty much every nation) basically enslaved through debt, taxes, drugs, corruption and immorality.

If Crimea is like the Sudetenland, then Obama is like Neville Chamberland. I can imagine the Liberal Messiah claiming to have reached a deal with Hit.., I mean Putin and then Putin conquers the rest of Ukraine.

The point is that TODAY, Ukraine is an independent nation, and a more powerful neighbor is using the "historical ethnicity" excuse to annex territory that isn't theirs TODAY. This is exactly what Hitler did before the shooting began in Poland. You don't get to erase national boundaries just because you think some percentage of that territory should belong to another nation... unless, of course, nobody is willing to stand up to you. Then you can take what you want... just as Hitler did, until the West finally stood up.

How many territories and millions of people will you excuse getting annexed into Russia before the shooting begins? And how many hundreds of millions do you want killed in the resulting shooting war?

23
posted on 03/04/2014 1:42:33 PM PST
by Teacher317
(We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men)

What you say is true that Ukraine is an independent nation. I do not think that Putin is using the historical ethnicity excuse; there are other issues like port access. Crimea is 60% Russian.

Russia has assets to protect in Sevastopol. Ukraine and Russia signed a treaty that allowed Russia to keep its fleet in Sevastopol. The agreement is that the Russian fleet is set to remain there until at least 2042.

Hence, I do not think that the Hitler analogy applies. I do not know when the West will stand up. I do not know enough to even guess where this is headed. Will it be constrained to Crimea? Where is Ukraine headed to settle the issues and unrest? How real is the worry that Russia is bent on rebuilding its empire?

27
posted on 03/04/2014 2:29:39 PM PST
by olezip
(Time obliterates the fictions of opinion and confirms the decisions of nature. ~ Cicero)

Same theme. Der Fuehrer used the poor down trotted Germans living in CheckLand as his reasons for going in and Der Stalin II is doing the same thing. AND we and the Brits will react the same way, ho-hum.

Western bankers, meanwhile, have the US government debt over 100% of GDP.

Russia has done VERY well economically since 2000, after recovering from an economic debacle in 1998.

It’s not about “empires” and political rhetoric, it’s about real, everyday economics.

IBM and Boeing have been doing business inside Russia since 1972.

No nation on earth has anywhere near the capability to occupy the US, so we are in no danger of some boogie man coming after us.

Our biggest enemy is international financial elites that too few people want to even admit exist, so they go on exporting jobs, exporting food and raising its price, dreaming up things to sell to the government which we pay for with tax dollars, etc.

That is an excellent program you posted. WW II in color brings home the stark horrors of that war, and it reminds us that any war with Russia would be bloody, painful, and monumental in scope. Napoleon and Hitler also learned the hard way what the Russian winters do to an army.

I wonder whether John Baird knows the history of the Crimean Peninsula, that it was Russian for over 200 years. That would explain why most of the citizens are of Russian descent.

Other parts of the Ukraine were under Russian rule even longer.

Just why Russians predominate in Crimea has to be explained by other factors. Deportation of Crimean Tatars (and Armenians, Bulgarians and Greeks)? The fact that it was an attractive, sunny resort -- Russia's sunbelt? The presence of the Russian military?

“repeating Putins propaganda like a good useful idiot. What are you Putin lovers doing on FR?”

How about recognizing that the EU, Obama, Soros, Kerry, Hillary, McCain, and the MSM didn’t suddenly get one right? You have a finely tuned antenna for Russian propaganda, but utterly miss it when its fed to you by our own side.

36
posted on 03/04/2014 3:31:17 PM PST
by DesertRhino
(I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)

“You don’t get to erase national boundaries just because you think some percentage of that territory should belong to another nation... “

Really now? Lots of people will be fascinated that this is our position. Examples include Serbia, where we broke away Kosovo. Israel, where at this very minute we are trying to redraw their borders. And not to mention that Europe has changed borders so many times that it’s almost been a hobby. Syria will also find this quite interesting.

And I would submit another law. Rock and firebomb throwing crowds should never get to assert authority over people who disagree, simply because they happen to fall within the nation state area the crowd has seized.

37
posted on 03/04/2014 3:42:46 PM PST
by DesertRhino
(I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)

Wikipedia: : On 19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR issued a decree on the transfer of the Crimean region of the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR. This Supreme Soviet Decree states that this transfer was motivated by "the commonality of the economy, the proximity, and close economic and cultural relations between the Crimean region and the Ukrainian SSR".

Jim Noble: Twenty years, fortunes shift and we have a chance to take them back. We would do it wouldn't we?

So, good morals should be copacetic with opportunistic, two-faced "Indian giving?"

Iran is most definitely a threat. Islamonazis with nuclear weapons doesn’t strike me as a swell idea. So yes, Iran is a massive threat to the US and our allies.

However....

I don’t think the Ukraine’s problems are our problems. They are not an ally. We have enough problems, like an out of control federal government that is spying on us, defenseless borders, a military being hollowed out, and before anyone forgets, there’s also the little problem with 90 trillion in unpaid liabilities....

I wonder whether John Baird knows the history of the Crimean Peninsula, that it was Russian for over 200 years. That would explain why most of the citizens are of Russian descent.

Remember this argument of yours when Mexico uses it to justify retaking California, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Texas, and....wait for it...Georgia and Florida where recent evidence indicates that the Maya settled parts of Georgia and Florida long before the Spanish showed up.

Almost everyone here is missing the larger issue. At our and Russia’s insistence, the Ukraine sent to Russia for destruction (supposedly) 5000(!) nuclear munitions, in return for our assurance of protection (which was reaffirmed multiple times, most recently in 2009.)

Now, for Russia to backstab the Ukraine is expected: Just read a little history. For us, not only is it a moral issue, every “capable” country not now in the nuclear club, many because we have cajoled them to refrain, “we will protect you”, is watching.

We do not at this point need to attack Russia: There are many other effective things we can do. But if Russia’s move is not rolled back, the consequences, even if Russia does no more, are dire indeed.

46
posted on 03/04/2014 10:14:24 PM PST
by Paul R.
(Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)

Really now? Lots of people will be fascinated that this is our position. Examples include Serbia, where we broke away Kosovo. Israel, where at this very minute we are trying to redraw their borders. And not to mention that Europe has changed borders so many times that its almost been a hobby. Syria will also find this quite interesting.

We are wrong in most cases you mention where we are involved. I might make some exceptions in the immediate post-WW2 period: Winners do get to get their way sometimes.

And I would submit another law. Rock and firebomb throwing crowds should never get to assert authority over people who disagree, simply because they happen to fall within the nation state area the crowd has seized.

I assume that your position would be unchanged if the Ukrainian protesters had had real military type weapons, and had been able to organize into military type units or militias. By extension, then, G. Washington & Co. should have had no authority over Tories and Tory sympathizers in the U.S. after the U.S. won its independence. Righto...

47
posted on 03/04/2014 10:49:01 PM PST
by Paul R.
(Leftists desire to control everything; In the end they invariably control nothing worth a damn.)

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