doglover:SwiftFox: So, the toll of the wolf hunts in Idaho driving livestock losses higher and higher is continuing to new records as they kill more and more, wrecking the packs an their ability to feed themselves on their natural prey.

This is simply a continuation of what happened the last couple of years. Kill wolves at random, destroy their ability to regulate their own population, use that as an excuse to kill more random wolves and dig their state and all involved into the same hole deeper.

Now after Wisconsin's first "limited" wolf hunt, the packs have become much more defensive of their territories as loss of pack members reduced their strength against other wolves, and bear hunters running hounds out of sight in wolf territory there are having twice the incidents of the wolves defending their territories against the invading wolves threatening them and their pups, that ignore scent marks and howl they own the place instead. 8 or 9 incidents in the last month. Oh, and Michigan wants to copy the idea of shooting a few wolves, partly on the basis it might have the opposite effect there, make wolves welcome other wolves (the dogs) into their territories.

Don't you understand. The wolves in Idaho are evil killers. They killed me when I was just a baby!

I sympathize. I know of at least another unfortunate whose mother revealed to him that his father was eaten by wolves a year before he was born, the local wildlife agency covering it up so as not to panic people.

Arachnophobe:iaazathot: Domesticated sheep are incredibly stupid due to regressive inbreeding of genetic lines. That they all asphyxiated is not surprising. We have bred them not to be able to survive without our intervention. Then we fed them in a cannibalistic manner and got scrapie.

Wolves breed pretty quickly, so, eventually something will need to be done to keep them in check. Of course, ranchers would love to wipe them out again, but they would like to wipe out anyone who isn't a direct benefit to their operation. A lot of ranchers, not all, if they could, would steal your land right out from under you without a second thought. There is a sense of entitlement in ranching culture that doesn't have room for anyone else in its vision of the world.

/knows a few ranching families

Wolves do not breed 'pretty quickly'. They have one litter per year on average.

The rest of your post is pretty spot on. This is nothing more than another example of a rancher who is bad at their job.

Everything I have read or heard on the matter (radio, we have a daily Wyoming Today on NPR) of wolf re-population is that their numbers came back very fast and they spread faster than anticipated. No, they aren't rabbits, or humans for that matter, but they do seem to be reproducing at a rate higher than anticipated. I would estimate that they have a good survival rate in their litters compared to some other mammals, or they are breeding faster for some reason. However, I am certainly no expert.

keypusher:doglover: BGates: ungulate populations are in steep decline only in areas with wolves

YA THINK!?

[blog.littlebigfund.org image 850x637]

Why did you put a picture of a polar bear in a post about animals with hooves?

It's not the animal, it's the gesture.

Wolves were re-introduced because ungulate populations are out of control without predation all over north America. Without frequent culls and hunting, they do damage to everything in the forest as well as people's gardens and farms and cars. This is in sharp contrast to the places like northern Canada where the wolves never got slaughtered which still have decent balance.

So the bear covering it's face is to imply the one speaking is missing the point so badly when they say ungulate populations are declining that I must cover my face to shield myself from their obliviousness.

iaazathot:Everything I have read or heard on the matter (radio, we have a daily Wyoming Today on NPR) of wolf re-population is that their numbers came back very fast and they spread faster than anticipated.

This is true. From the few dozen that were released into Yellowstone and Idaho, by 2007 an estimated 1,500 wolves inhabited the northern Rockies of the United States (some descended from Canadian immigrant packs, but still).

Now, I get ranchers being annoyed, but this is one of the sillier complaints noted;

SwiftFox:So, the toll of the wolf hunts in Idaho driving livestock losses higher and higher is continuing to new records as they kill more and more, wrecking the packs an their ability to feed themselves on their natural prey.

This is simply a continuation of what happened the last couple of years. Kill wolves at random, destroy their ability to regulate their own population, use that as an excuse to kill more random wolves and dig their state and all involved into the same hole deeper.

Now after Wisconsin's first "limited" wolf hunt, the packs have become much more defensive of their territories as loss of pack members reduced their strength against other wolves, and bear hunters running hounds out of sight in wolf territory there are having twice the incidents of the wolves defending their territories against the invading wolves threatening them and their pups, that ignore scent marks and howl they own the place instead. 8 or 9 incidents in the last month. Oh, and Michigan wants to copy the idea of shooting a few wolves, partly on the basis it might have the opposite effect there, make wolves welcome other wolves (the dogs) into their territories.

BGates:a particular individual: I don't care how much livestock dies from wolves. Ranchers are just a bunch of self-entitles crybabies who think man is the only species that deserves to exist (apart from the ones they raise for slaughter). Where I live, an alarming number of people believe that every elk, every deer, every sheep that dies was murdered by wolves. They take FWP statistics of elk death after an especially brutal winter, and leap to the conclusion that wolves killed them all. To listen to these troglodytes, elk would be immortal if not for wolves.

Well, since winters have generally been getting less "brutal" and the ungulate populations are in steep decline only in areas with wolves, it makes sense that wolves are the problem.

Yes. Only wolves kill ungulates. Ungulates are immortal, apart from those supernatural wolves, and their single-minded anti-ungulate agenda. A warmer-than-average-winter cannot possibly kill any ungulates. Ungulates never die from old age, injury, disease, overpopulation, starvation, trappers, poachers, bad luck, falling from great heights, getting hit by ranchers in their ludicrously oversized trucks, bears, or wolverines. All elk, deer and sheep that have ever died have been victims of wolves. The only solution is to KILL ALL THE WOLVES! Only then will ranchers STFU about wolves and complain about some other natural condition that needs to be "corrected" because money.

ArcadianRefugee:iaazathot: Everything I have read or heard on the matter (radio, we have a daily Wyoming Today on NPR) of wolf re-population is that their numbers came back very fast and they spread faster than anticipated.

This is true. From the few dozen that were released into Yellowstone and Idaho, by 2007 an estimated 1,500 wolves inhabited the northern Rockies of the United States (some descended from Canadian immigrant packs, but still).

Now, I get ranchers being annoyed, but this is one of the sillier complaints noted;As the wolves have feasted on the herds, there have been fewer elk for hunters to shoot. "Our hunting has really gone lousy," said Martin Davis ofParadise Valley, Montana, who guides elk hunters in the mountains north of Yellowstone NationalPark.Translation: "Dangit! The wolves are killin' things before we get to kill 'em!"

The guide sevices talk out of the other side of their mouth in their ads trying to attract hunters to the abundant local herds of elk and other game.

BGates:Glitchwerks: BGates: I imagine that the wolves will be eating you since you won't have a weapon. And I promise I won't harm any wolf that eats one of you wolf loving idiots.

I know you got a good thing going on and a lot of people hooked, but wolves don't really eat people.

They do attack and have killed. With the wolf population exploding, it won't be long before it happens. A couple years ago a few wolves had to be relocated because they were roaming the neighborhoods in a Jackson subdivision.

You say this like it's a bad thing...I keed, I keed, but no...

The Orlando, FL area is having a huge number of black bear encounters right now, coyotes are also encroaching on urban populations. At some point nature and people collide. If you want to live in places where animals are prevalent and expect them to magically disappear, then I don't think the fault is with the animals. I think that statistical odds of murder are much greater than wolf attack, even in Jackson Hole. Moose are much more dangerous than either bears or wolves, and they are all over Wyoming. You are statistically more likely to be killed by a female moose in this area than by any other mammal.

ArcadianRefugee:iaazathot: Everything I have read or heard on the matter (radio, we have a daily Wyoming Today on NPR) of wolf re-population is that their numbers came back very fast and they spread faster than anticipated.

This is true. From the few dozen that were released into Yellowstone and Idaho, by 2007 an estimated 1,500 wolves inhabited the northern Rockies of the United States (some descended from Canadian immigrant packs, but still).

Now, I get ranchers being annoyed, but this is one of the sillier complaints noted;As the wolves have feasted on the herds, there have been fewer elk for hunters to shoot. "Our hunting has really gone lousy," said Martin Davis ofParadise Valley, Montana, who guides elk hunters in the mountains north of Yellowstone NationalPark.Translation: "Dangit! The wolves are killin' things before we get to kill 'em!"

Yeah, elk decline is largely due to drought, Chronic Wasting Disease, loss of habitat due to humans, and horrible fire seasons. Of course, people need to pin their frustrations on something. There is little evidence that the wolf population has decimated the elk population. They are just one of many variables and are pretty low on the list.

I'm just surprised that so far nobody but me has blamed dogs. Which will run and kill sheep in just this same way. I know, because we had to put down our German shepherd who was running goats in much this fashion; and my friend in Nevada has seen dogs kill cattle like this and heard it blamed on "coyotes" in the same way. Not saying wolves won't kill sheep, of course; but dogs seems far more likely if there were only two.

ArcadianRefugee:I get ranchers being annoyed, but this is one of the sillier complaints noted;As the wolves have feasted on the herds, there have been fewer elk for hunters to shoot. "Our hunting has really gone lousy," said Martin Davis ofParadise Valley, Montana, who guides elk hunters in the mountains north of Yellowstone NationalPark.

Actually, that was a huge problem here in Idaho. So much as they had to completely shut down several areas to elk hunting completely. This was a blow to the hunters and to the state wildlife funds that are dependent upon this money. In fact the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation actually got involved.

Gyrfalcon:I'm just surprised that so far nobody but me has blamed dogs. Which will run and kill sheep in just this same way. I know, because we had to put down our German shepherd who was running goats in much this fashion; and my friend in Nevada has seen dogs kill cattle like this and heard it blamed on "coyotes" in the same way. Not saying wolves won't kill sheep, of course; but dogs seems far more likely if there were only two.

Blame dogs, an animal known for this kind of behavior, instead of wolves (not really known for this)?

iaazathot:Yeah, elk decline is largely due to drought, Chronic Wasting Disease, loss of habitat due to humans, and horrible fire seasons.

[citation needed]. make sure that it is specific to the northern Yellowstone herd which has gone from about 14K to about 3.9K. Remember the peak population was during the drought of the mid-90s and I am pretty sure that CWD is not in that herd.

Bullsh*t. Redneck sisterf*cking ranchers blame wolves for what likely was the work of coyotes or wild dogs. Not even a PACK could kill that many sheep. Submitter's a farking moron. Ranchers are farking morons.

doglover:dee_dubya: Yep, you guys are right. I'll bet the sheep asphyxiated themselves, then the wolves came along and had a snack. No chance the wolves running the sheep caused them to bunch and asphyxiate.

Rams don't run from wolves. They're called rams, like the verb, because they farking ram things. They're basically a short temper on legs.

Upset the natural order and remove all the rams from 100s of ewes and see the power of unnatural fear. If there had been two or three rams, this story would be about one dead sheep or less.

Anyone who blames the wolves here can suck the long dick and choke on it.

If my grandma had wheels she'd be a wagon.The wolves killed the sheep as surely as if they shot them with a gun.Hey, as long as we're playing "what if", forget rams. If the sheep all had sidearms and combat knives, they could defend themselves.They could sharpen their hooves and learn hap-ki-do.

BGates:doglover: dee_dubya: Yep, you guys are right. I'll bet the sheep asphyxiated themselves, then the wolves came along and had a snack. No chance the wolves running the sheep caused them to bunch and asphyxiate.

Rams don't run from wolves. They're called rams, like the verb, because they farking ram things. They're basically a short temper on legs.

Upset the natural order and remove all the rams from 100s of ewes and see the power of unnatural fear. If there had been two or three rams, this story would be about one dead sheep or less.

Anyone who blames the wolves here can suck the long dick and choke on it.

And anybody who thinks the introduction of a non-native wolf is good for "nature" is a complete idiot (look in a mirror if you can't figure out I'm talking about your dumb ass).

You want these POS wolves, come get them. Until you do I will actively shoot every wolf I see.

Meditation

Animals full of lightwalk through the foresttoward someone aiming a gunloaded with darkness.

That's the world: Godholding stillletting it happen again,and again and again. -William Stafford

I hope one day you find peace, BGGates. Such evil can't be good for your soul.

HeadLever:ArcadianRefugee: I get ranchers being annoyed, but this is one of the sillier complaints noted;As the wolves have feasted on the herds, there have been fewer elk for hunters to shoot. "Our hunting has really gone lousy," said Martin Davis ofParadise Valley, Montana, who guides elk hunters in the mountains north of Yellowstone NationalPark.

Actually, that was a huge problem here in Idaho. So much as they had to completely shut down several areas to elk hunting completely. This was a blow to the hunters and to the state wildlife funds that are dependent upon this money. In fact the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation actually got involved.

Somebody else pointed me to an article about that a while back.And as redneck as it makes me sound, I really want to go on one of those guided elk hunts where you ride horses and stay in a canvas tent, but I digress ...A lot of folks don't realize don't realize that a large portion of most states conservation budget comes from hunting license fees. I pay close to $100 a year to be allowed to hunt and fish in VA. There are thousands of us who spend that much. And if I want to hunt or fish out of state? Holy crap it gets expensive. $35 for a five day fishing license in OK? I get that there isn't shiat else to do out there so it was worth the money, but damn, thats five bucks less than my yearly instate fishibf license in VA. Out of state licenses for big game in some western states is north of $500 dollars. Before you pay for lodging and/or a guide.That's big money for sparsely populated western states.

It depends on the breed, but on the whole, sheep are smarter than chickens. Sheep have sharp memories, for one thing. They recognize faces -- sheep and human both, in my experience -- and know the difference between people they know and, well, people they don't. As prey animals with a strong flight drive, they are typically wary of strangers (and strange situations), but calm around people they know. They'll still startle, but they won't panic.

They don't have the best spatial reasoning skills, but once they learn a route, they remember it. They're trainable. Halter training? All you need is patience, treats, and time. The friendliest ones really thrive on attention. They're like big dogs, frankly, only they smell better and are less into the whole fetch thing. (That's more of a predator animal activity.)

Chickens aren't stupid -- they're incredibly good survivors, and have a social structure of their own -- but I have yet to see any evidence that they are as intelligent as sheep. Their instincts don't seem to be as complex, nor their memories as long.

I'm not an expert. At all. I just grew up around both species. So... take that as you will.

HeadLever:SwiftFox: It doesn't occur to the people claiming this that wolves often starve -

I hope you are not meaning me. in fact, most acknowledge that starvation is one of the population equalizers of wolves.

No, but there an amazing number of self-professed experts who act as though the idea this happens is ridiculous. I mean the kind that assume wolves in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming represent the Great Lakes area ones, under that many inches of rain regimen and absent rangeland period, forest and wildlife habitat and private fields around human residences instead, monoculture of whitetail deer as wolf-sized prey, too few of moose and larger to make it worth the wolves learning to hunt the immense moose.

Frankly, I would have thought with fewer fences to confine, this exact type of incident - accident really, the wolves can't possibly have intended domestic sheep stupidity to this level, or intellectually enjoyed watching the sheep smother themselves as opposed to actually biting and so on - would be less likely in the Western US.

HeadLever:grimlock1972: The owner of the herd/flock and his employees are just as much to blame if not more as they failed to adequately protect their livestock.

Why? Siddoways use guard dogs in the past (still think that they do). It would be a little cost prohibitive to assign each sheep with a blackwater escort. They do take steps, but sometimes, the wolves find a way through the defenses.

Beacause if they had done a better job they would only have lost one or two sheep not mass of them that they did.