I keep trying to figure out the differences between Nazism in the early 40s and modern Islam but am not seeing much difference. I guess the Nazi's endorsed killing mainly Jews whereas Islam wants to kill everyone but Muslims with a special emphasis on killing Jews to score bonus points with Allah.

Memo to the WW Liberals: please notify me when Christians start crashing planes into buildings and beheading innocent people on the internet. Let's keep Christianity/Islam comparisons out of this thread and be realistic.

Last time I checked Catholics were Christians. You Christians always like to talk smack against other religions but your religion and especially your religions history is no better. Didn't your parents teach you not to throw stones in a glass house? The problem IS Religion.

strife- you are the kind of ignorant douche bag I was referencing above. Muslims kill people all over the globe and your response..... simply pathetic.

So Christians haven't killed people all over the world? Clearly you don't know much history. How about the Pope contributing to aids in Africa? Know anything about that?

Do you know who said this? ""I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it." That's right, Christian President George W. Bush. Has anyone died from the "peace" he tried spreading overseas?

Strife- The only religion people like you don't detest is post-9/11 Islam. Here we have a bunch of innocent dead kid's and the first thing you can think about is Priest's molesting kids. Seek counseling dude and start Thorazine immediately.

No, the first thing I think about is how crazy ALL religions are. And that it's ironic that we have (presumably) Christian folks like you who are so quick to point out how bad Muslims are when you have your own issues. You know, there are descent Muslims too. Obviously, you have never met one. Don't forget who led the KKK either... Protestants. They ever kill anyone?

I am not a Christian. I haven't been to a church other than for a wedding in a long, long time... 30+ years. That said, I respect everyone's right to worship as they see fit... just don't try to kill me or sexually assault my kids and we can co-exist just fine.

I am not the one with my head in the sand here. That said, reports are saying it was a tall blond guy. Not exactly your typical Muslim terrorist but whenever there is an act like this Islam should pop into everyone's head if they are enlightened at all. It is simply a fact that Islam is responsible for most of the world's violence of this sort.

I am not a Christian. I haven't been to a church other than for a wedding in a long, long time... 30+ years. That said, I respect everyone's right to worship as they see fit... just don't try to kill me or sexually assault my kids and we can co-exist just fine.

I am not the one with my head in the sand here. That said, reports are saying it was a tall blond guy. Not exactly your typical Muslim terrorist but whenever there is an act like this Islam should pop into everyone's head if they are enlightened at all. It is simply a fact that Islam is responsible for most of the world's violence of this sort.

OK, but based on your comment;

Quote:

"please notify me when Christians start crashing planes into buildings and beheading innocent people on the internet. Let's keep Christianity/Islam comparisons out of this thread and be realistic. "

I'm lead to believe that you favor Christians over Muslims. It wasn't all that long ago that Timothy McVeigh blew up the gov't building in Oklahoma. He was raised a Christian. Nor was it long ago when a Christian guy flew his plane into the IRS building in Florida. I agree with you that Muslims are the worst when it comes to this stuff but they are not alone by themselves.

It was your comment

Quote:

Memo to the WW Liberals: please notify me when Christians start crashing planes into
buildings and beheading innocent people on the internet. Let's keep Christianity/Islam comparisons out of this thread and be realistic.

that made me need to comment since you were implying Christians were infallible and dismissing all the harm they have done over their history. And I'll also point out, there are A LOT of Christians liberals. Most all democrats are Christians.

Thats just it, every time someone mentions an islamic-led horrific event, as a cause for concern about the group, its always met with the idea that such concern is not needed because christians are just as bad. Its the same tired argument of the crusades, corrput catholic church of the past, and pedophiles. There are more non-religious pedophiles than their are among priests, they just dont make the news. However, there are not more suicide bombing, plane hijacking, civilian beheading, woman abusing douchebags than their are in the muslim world. Somehow half the country cant see the difference between centuries old political power plays and a modern day threat. We are too PC for our own good. Its funny, when they see a trend, most libs act on it with broad strokes...like when Toyotas were having the accelerator issue. Logic says to recall all of them, including the ones without problem. However, when dealing with muslims, the very mention of the observation of a trend is met with so much PC pushback is a shame.

This article refers to the shooter as a self-described "Christian conservative". Kind of makes one wish they could change the title of this thread. Killing is wrong, religious justification is wrong, false accusations based on religion is wrong. Simple as that.

Thoughts and prayers to the people of Norway. It sounds like a true nightmare of events was unleashed upon the innocent.

jason, the idea that Muslims perpetrate more violence is arguable. Yeah we hear about international terrorism because essentially we are the targets and the crimes are generally horrible and intentionally visible. Did you know that there are only three Muslim majority countries with higher homicide rates than the US? Sudan, Iraq & Pakistan (big shock on the last two). What I'm getting at is that broad generalizations don't serve anyone. Yeah I'd watch my butt in traveling to a Muslim country due to the fact that despite hanging with hundreds of regular secular Muslims, all it takes is one bad person to ruin a life. To judge anyone based on one very bad apple is wrong. Call me a liberal, I prefer to call it judging a man based on his own worth.

I have beat this to death with people. Catholics are not Christian's. Yes, there is a line from the early Catholic Church to what many people call the Christian religions today. The Catholic Church changed significantly around the 3rd century if I recall correctly and merged with paganism. It became a political control mechanism/ religion instead of the simple belief in God through Jesus. The two religions do not believe in the same thing. I can break it all down for you too if you want but that's ok. I have a guy who does not believe in God is going to sit here and argue what religions are and aren't.

I love how you try and tie Christians into acts of violence. uh,uh, uh.....a guy once went to church because his mom made him adn he blew up a building so I am going to call him a christian to further my argument. Doesn't pass the sniff test. Even if they were Christian, they did none of that in the name of Christ. BIG DIFFERENCE. Even the a-hole who blew up the abortion clinic (how long ago was that?) was not being biblical and every Christian you would ever talk to will say that guy should rot in jail and is a horrible person. Ask a majority of Muslims about what they think of these guy blowing themselves up? Never hear of a public outcry do you? I think that is all people are saying and the facts are before you.

I do agree that religion is the problem in many things because religion is man made and not simply a relationship with God. Big difference.

Even if the majority don't decry the acts of few, judging a group is in my opinion wrong. You can do it if you want. I think I live a richer life by taking all people at their word and actions, regardless of what their religious cohorts might do.

It never fails when someone posts something about Muslims some idiot goes around trying to lump the Christian Faith into being the same evil as Islam. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, even the Bible says narrow is the road and straight is the was and few there be that find it, but many people profess Christianity but are not followers of Christ. Jesus who is Christianity (Christ Like) came to serve and give hi life a ransom. If you want to know what Christianity is about look at his life, not some random guy who blew up a clinic 20 years ago. Mohammed on the other hand was exactly what we see in todays Muslim extremists. He raped pillaged and killed every where he went. If you are going to compare the 2 religions you have to go back to the beggining and compare the ones who the faith were built upon. When you do this anyone who can come says Christianity is on the same par with Islam is as was mentioned above, AN IDIOT IN THE HIGHEST DEGREE

Oh, now would you look at this?? Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to judge.

"Official sources and social media indicate that Breivik might be a right-wing Christian fundamentalist who may have had an issue with Norway's multi-cultural society. The attack may have been politically motivated, one official said. "

It never fails when someone posts something about Muslims some idiot goes around trying to lump the Christian Faith into being the same evil as Islam. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, even the Bible says narrow is the road and straight is the was and few there be that find it, but many people profess Christianity but are not followers of Christ. Jesus who is Christianity (Christ Like) came to serve and give hi life a ransom. If you want to know what Christianity is about look at his life, not some random guy who blew up a clinic 20 years ago. Mohammed on the other hand was exactly what we see in todays Muslim extremists. He raped pillaged and killed every where he went. If you are going to compare the 2 religions you have to go back to the beggining and compare the ones who the faith were built upon. When you do this anyone who can come says Christianity is on the same par with Islam is as was mentioned above, AN IDIOT IN THE HIGHEST DEGREE

Go back to the beginning? OK, I've actually read the OT have you? There is a lot of barbarism in it. Shall I point out the scripture for your ignorant a$$?

Quote:

I have beat this to death with people. Catholics are not Christian's.

Another person who thinks they are entitled to their own facts. News Break for you, Catholics are one of the biggest Christian groups in the world.

Exactly Brenner. There's a difference between being part of a religion and committing an act out of either anger at a specific target or mental illness, and committing an act of violence in the name of the religion. This man did not do this in the name of Christianity. It appears that it was done out of anger at political groups. The sooner you understand that Jimmy, the sooner everyone will stop calling you an idiot. I can see the argument you're making, and it's a flawed one. I've been trying to steer clear of these arguments lately, but this one is just another ignorant one. How can you not see the difference between people who are Christian but commit crimes because they're crazy, and people who are Muslim that commit these crimes in the name of their religion?

And the fact of the matter is that bringing up Christian history is nearly a moot point. You can point out all the evil that was done by Christians in the past, but they have (for the most part) moved beyond that now. It's called maturing as a religion. Islam has been a violent religion since it's inception. Christianity started relatively peacefully, then got wacky and did some really bad stuff, and then moved back to peaceful beliefs.

Ah, the excuses flow. The methods that Islamic extremists use has more to do with their means to execute war than religion. They are powerless against our army and weapons.

You could learn a lesson from American history when battles were fought by civilized people by marching in formation in uniforms lead by the commanding officer who was not to be targeted. Only primitive uncivilized people would hide in the bushes and shoot the commanding officer.

Wow, I guess strife hit a nerve. It was a stupid thread to begin with. Even if this murderer was Muslim, it doesn't mean a thing. It's one guy! Has there never been a Christian mass murderer? Christians have done a lot of evil on this planet, and there's no arguing against it. Trying to say, oh but that person wasn't a REAL Christian is laughable. This idiotic thread needs to just die.

Mighty big words their Jeremy. Don't think you have an A$$ to cash it though. I am not the one defining anyone. Read the bible and tell me where the bible says a man on earth is the direct link to heaven? Tell me where in the bible that men can elevate other humans to diety status. Show me in the bible where it tells the leader of the church to not have normal family lives. I can go on and on. They are not of the same belief system period. Just because one is completely about Christ and the other happens to have christ as part but not the center of the religion does not make them the same. Islam believes in Jesus too but is it the same as Christian?

Don't start calling someone feeble mind when you yourself are obviously not able to read the history of the catholic church and where it came from and how it deviated completely from Christ. So, I would not throw stones when you have not done the research. You have zero place to comment. Jeremy, if there is a hell, you and your pedophile priest loving self will be on that road. You like to think of yourself as some sort of scholar, give me something to prove me wrong. I give you guys link after link with factual discussions but obviously you have not looked at the facts. Sounds like you guys are good democrats to me. Don't actually research anything, believe what someone tells you and argue to the death that they are right. Complete intellectual dishonesty. Provide links and lets debate.

the biggest difference that I see is: the Christian "community" condemns killing. Christians seem to want the "evil doers" held accountable. We don't see that in the Islamic community. In fact, no high ranking islamic official made any comments directly after 911 condemning that attacks.....

and I agree
Catholicism is paganism. I have had several debates about that with friends and family....

Jeremy
I'm not sure why you are attacking me. I am not pushing my beliefs on you or anyone else. I think that I would be accurate in saying that yes, christian leaders of the day condemned the dropping of the bomb. I'm pretty sure that christian leaders have been critical of war through out the modern age. I think that you are confused as to what a true christian is.

Jeremy, you need to get back on your meds bud. You democrats just loose your freaking minds when confronted with truth.

Who said anything about about drinking beer (though it does sound like a good idea)? Biggest drinking parties we had in our town were sponsored by Catholic organizations.

What is wrong with being proud to be an American? Sounds like a Obama apologist to me.

Why would someone want to beat up a Priest for? Just because someone is gay does not mean I have to or want to beat them up.

Who made a statement about getting into heaven Jeremy. You sure have a weird way of extrapolating plain language into something it is not. Unless you think that pagans can't get into heaven, then I guess you could come to that conclusion. Me, I did not say that.

Also, are you for firebombing but against the Atomic Bomb? Just because a bomb is atomic, does that make it any more morally wrong and is a country not allowed to defend itself from evil?

"Just because a bomb is atomic, does that make it any more morally wrong and is a country not allowed to defend itself from evil?"

So everyone of the 100,000 people that perished were evil? Maybe many of them were against Japan's aggressions but did not have the means to escape the island. Oh, that's right, I guess every Japanese citizen was anti-American just like earlier posts have stated that all Muslims all terrorists. Let's paint everyone with a broad stroke.

The point is, I don't wish to get into a discussion about religion with you. Truth is, I attend a Catholic church, but I consider myself a Universalist. I don't think any religion is the right one. Religion is man made, and as history shows, mankind has a tendency to screw most things up, why would religion be any different? I like to think that "god" would rather you be kind to your neighbor as opposed to you preaching to someone what you believe to be god's scripture.

Actually, I am not on the molestation issue. Another person is, I am just trying to stir you up. Interesting enough. It appears that those people on that website are in jail or being sued. While many are accused but not prosecuted. Humans are humans and the Southern Baptist are zealots on the other end of the spectrum. Though the Baptists are closer to biblical concept, they still have many man made emotions attached to the human condition and God. Christ is forgiving and was absolutely not about religion for control. He was not even about religion to be honest. He hung out with "low lifes" to help preach the truth. He did not go to the churches and preach. He tried to help all people not just a special class.

On your Japanese angle. I have no idea how that even came up for starters. Yes, the Japanese were extremely evil and militaristic. I don't think you really understand how bad the japanese were. They had centuries of brainwashing and looked at the emperor as a living God. It is immaterial what the 100,000 people thought. It was a war. The people in the cites were part of the Japanese war machine. They worked the factories, supplied the warriors, and were the only ones who ultimately could bring the emperor to surrender. The japanese committed horrible attrocities. They tested germ warfare against the Chinese, the Baton Death March which killed thousands or our men. How about the thousands of men or ours that died fighting back the Japanese? Do their lives mean anything to you? You act like the Japanese were some sort of victims. We ended the war without having to attack the mainland which saved millions of lives. So, you have to ask yourself. Sacrifice 100,000 of theirs to save a million? It was going to happen one way or the other. Your choice/ their choice. Let me ask, which was better. Getting atomic bombed or the way more people that died in the firebombing of Japan. You act like the atomic bomb was worse than that. Many more died in the firebombing and resultant firestorms. Even after all the firebombing the people did not bring enough pressure to the emperor to stop the war. All they had to do was surrender. That is not our fault. That is the backwards thinking that passes for many people today. They bomb us, we are in a all out war, so we are the bad guys for punching them in the mouth and then paying for their backwards little country to rebuild? Let me ask you this, was it OK to bomb Germans?

Uh, yeah, the past. The typical "christians are bad too" rhetoric gives examples of how popes 500 years ago used their influence for political favor and control of the people issuing things like indulgences, etc.

I have no doubt that many atrocities have been committed in the name of God, be it Allah or the God of the Bible. Here is the difference: The founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, preached peace and love for your neighbors. The founder of Islam, Mohammad, preached forcing all non Islamists into the religion of Islam through violence if necessary. The fact that some "Christians" behave unbecomingly is not the fault of Jesus or of the true Christian religion. The fact that some Muslims behave badly is to at least some extent the natural progression of them following the teachings of Mohammad. Jihad is NOT a Christian ethic. People who bomb abortion clinics in the name of Christianity are seriously misguided as to what Jesus taught. Islamic jihadists are merely following the teachings of Mohammad, and that is the difference.

I have no doubt that many atrocities have been committed in the name of God, be it Allah or the God of the Bible. Here is the difference: The founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, preached peace and love for your neighbors. The founder of Islam, Mohammad, preached forcing all non Islamists into the religion of Islam through violence if necessary. The fact that some "Christians" behave unbecomingly is not the fault of Jesus or of the true Christian religion. The fact that some Muslims behave badly is to at least some extent the natural progression of them following the teachings of Mohammad. Jihad is NOT a Christian ethic. People who bomb abortion clinics in the name of Christianity are seriously misguided as to what Jesus taught. Islamic jihadists are merely following the teachings of Mohammad, and that is the difference.

Actually, Jesus turns out to be quite the sadistic one.. Have you read Leviticus, Deuteronomy, or Genesis? Or shall I go downstairs pull out the bible and recite the barbaric scriptures? How about the suppression of women? Shall I point those out too?

Even if the bible was real, was this really the best God could come up with? Clearly Inept.

Sorry Brenner. Are speaking about the Baptist part? I was raised Baptist. Though I agree with the doctrine, the Southern baptist (of the all Baptist) seem to be driving people away from Christ and seem to be more of a political force as much as anything. Maybe zealot was too strong of a word, but, I just don't dig real big religious institutions. They always end up with corruption and get more into money and process vs preaching the word. I guess it is human nature. Also, hard core Baptist tend to be a little too inflexible to me. My mother was that way and if it was not in the bible, it could not possibly exist.

Jimmy, you ignorance of what your talking about is showing. Jesus came to free the people from the old testament so to speak. Jesus was the beginning of the new testament. Maybe you should point things out and then people can discuss them.

Now that this post has bee totally derailed lets reflect on the irony of the OP with the following news snippet:
"The blond killer of at least 93 people in Norway sees himself as a righteous crusader on a mission to save European "Christendom" from a tide of Islam."

So it seems this is not an attack from islam but an attack against it. IMO hate breeds hate.

That article you linked has next to no information about the bomber, or his religion.

I especially like this part as a reflection of irony seeing as it was mentioned above.

Update at 6:46 p.m. ET: A police official tells the Associated Press that today's terror is more like the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh than the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center by Islamist fundamentalists.

Probably the piece of misinformation that the OP picked up on was this.

Update at 3:14 p.m. ET: The New York Times quotes a terrorism expert as saying the terror group Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack. The newspaper quotes Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at CNA, a research institute that studies terrorism, as saying the group called the attacks a response to Norwegian forces' presence in Afghanistan and to unspecified insults to the prophet Mohammed. The statement said, "There is more to come." The Times notes that the claim could not be confirmed.

Jimmy, you ignorance of what your talking about is showing. Jesus came to free the people from the old testament so to speak. Jesus was the beginning of the new testament. Maybe you should point things out and then people can discuss them.

Let us begin then.

It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17) = Laws are binding forever.

Look at Deuteronomy 22:13-21. It says if your wife is not a virgin on your wedding night she shall be executed. I can post the whole verse but it's a bit long and you can take the time to look for yourself.

Leviticus 25:44-46 Promoting slavery.

Leviticus 20:10 If you commit adultery you both shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy 13:13-19 Kill the entire town if one person worships another god.

Exodus 31:12-15 Kill people for working on the sabbath.

etc..etc..

Or do you only take the part about gays literal?

The Bible does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century.

jimmy z, I'm not sure if you have been on WW long. Just a heads up, your last post comes across as trying to factually de-base people's religion. The more time you spend in the non-wake section, the more you learn that those type posts only upset people. What you think is a valid argument is viewed as an attack on what they view to be very personal and very dear to them. Really the whole "christians are just as bad" line is tired, it may have some valid parts, but do you really expect to change the minds of the devout?

Even the OP asked for some semblance of order in this respect, you can tell he's wrestled this bear before. Unfortunately for Rob, he was completely wrong. Personally I like a post that stays on topic. Finger pointing and mundane analogies do the opposite. So while this thread is clearly filled with ridiculous detours, let's just focus on the irony of the original post. Rob, consider yourself notified!

jimmy z, I'm not sure if you have been on WW long. Just a heads up, your last post comes across as trying to factually de-base people's religion. The more time you spend in the non-wake section, the more you learn that those type posts only upset people. What you think is a valid argument is viewed as an attack on what they view to be very personal and very dear to them. Really the whole "christians are just as bad" line is tired, it may have some valid parts, but do you really expect to change the minds of the devout?

Even the OP asked for some semblance of order in this respect, you can tell he's wrestled this bear before. Unfortunately for Rob, he was completely wrong. Personally I like a post that stays on topic. Finger pointing and mundane analogies do the opposite. So while this thread is clearly filled with ridiculous detours, let's just focus on the irony of the original post. Rob, consider yourself notified!

Perhaps you missed deltahoosiers post that I quoted in my previous reply?? He did ask that I post a few things right? He also tried saying that my understanding was ignorant. Do you expect me to not reply to hist post since it might offend some of you devout Christians? Give me a break. People have been giving Christians a pass long enough. And no, of course not. I do not expect to change anyone's mind but I will at least tell another side of the story, or should we only tell the Christian version?

How about I start a thread that is against Christians and then ask conservative Christians not to respond. Do you think that would work? Do you think that is fair?

Jimmy, You have to do a lot better at "not giving a pass any longer" than you are. You obviously are so blinded by your own personal hate that you can not understand context and the relative meaning for the day. Then you also have to understand translations of language and context to the day. Also, you are about 8 years behind in the blind hate posts against christians (and Republicans as far as that goes). You have a ton of ground to make up.

Two things:

I say you are ignorant because you relate Jesus to the old testament. That is so far off base, I don't even know where to begin. Jesus was the beginning of the new testament.

Second, many things like homosexuality, adultry and such can absolutely destroy fledgling societies. They needed to procreate to survive but also have some sort of social order. It may not make sense entirely in today's context but some could relate. We now have a society that sleeps around, we work all hours of day. We are a 24/7 society. What has that lead to? No rest means we are stressed like never before, we are further away from God and destroying our spiritual well being, sexually transmitted diseases all around (look at aids in africa), single parent house holds, people don't know their neighbors (no social accountability). Hell, in California did you know that parents are not allowed to know what time their teenage daughters female doctor appointment is?

We should post a few tidbits from the Military Code of Justice when it comes to discipline and punishment. It would sound pretty much like the old testament in some cases and that book is about now. What works for discipline even today in our society would never get anyone to come into line in the middle east. Heck, what would scare a suburban kid into going straight vs a inner city kid would take and you want to try and place your current life compared to a old violent society.

Jimmy, You have to do a lot better at "not giving a pass any longer" than you are. You obviously are so blinded by your own personal hate that you can not understand context and the relative meaning for the day. Then you also have to understand translations of language and context to the day. Also, you are about 8 years behind in the blind hate posts against christians (and Republicans as far as that goes). You have a ton of ground to make up.

Two things:

I say you are ignorant because you relate Jesus to the old testament. That is so far off base, I don't even know where to begin. Jesus was the beginning of the new testament.

Second, many things like homosexuality, adultry and such can absolutely destroy fledgling societies. They needed to procreate to survive but also have some sort of social order. It may not make sense entirely in today's context but some could relate. We now have a society that sleeps around, we work all hours of day. We are a 24/7 society. What has that lead to? No rest means we are stressed like never before, we are further away from God and destroying our spiritual well being, sexually transmitted diseases all around (look at aids in africa), single parent house holds, people don't know their neighbors (no social accountability). Hell, in California did you know that parents are not allowed to know what time their teenage daughters female doctor appointment is?

Yes, I understand what you mean by Jesus in the New Testament. Trust me I know. But not even biblical scholars can make sense of these poorly written books. The OT says "Yahweh, the one God, as the Father" in addition to this god, there is Jesus the "mediator". God is not a man yet Christ was clearly “the Son of man” or, as he is often called in the New Testament, “the man Christ Jesus”. I could go on and on with this garbage. Truth is, no one really knows because the books are poorly written. Like I said earlier, clearly the work of inept individuals.

You, like every other devout Christian cherry pick the bible and dismiss all the barbarism. The old testament prescribes death for anyone who breaks the 10 commandments. Furthermore, Jesus and his followers NEVER repudiated any of this in the new testament. Unfortunately for you, there is no where in the new testament that says, " You know, when you get to the new world and establish your 3 branches of government and have a civil society you can dismiss all the barbarism in the old testament". You cherry pick the good verses based on your own intuition. Do you find it the least bit odd that Jesus speaks so highly of his heavenly father but shows no respect to his mother? I'm not sure, but I'm lead to believe that it has something to do with male chauvinist writing these books. Truth is, you nor any other religion that is based on these books can stand on their own two legs. Tough break, I know. Personally, I can't begin to understand why anyone would want to associate with someone like this. You are threatened into loving him or forced to spend eternity in hell. He can heal blind men but refused to heal blindness. Salamanders can grow back their leg but if your human, forget it. I see how this stuff spreads like wild fire though.. Indoctrinating young children before they can even think for themselves and threaten them with hell.

I don't think you are getting it. The culture was much harsher back then. You can be put to death in the military code of justice for much, much less than you can in the civilian world. Why is that? You are pretty good at looking at things in your world but have no idea what other cultures consider violent. Your violence could just as easily be the way it is in the city. Never mind ancient civilizations. There is the problem I hear with many liberal minded people and that problem is this notion that life should be fair. There are no such guarantees in life. Only guarantee in life is the ability of all people to have salvation though Jesus. Not works, not what family you belong too, not how much money you contribute to a church or charities. It is a simple gift and when you are talking about eternity, then the very few years on earth at not even as memorable as a early morning blink of your eye.

So, why would Jesus have to repudiate anything. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. He was not sent to enforce the law but instead he was sent to fufill the law. I have not cherry picked anything considering I have offered zero verses to point that this is my definitive point to the way I believe. You also make a mistake in believing that Jesus was the "son of man". We was clearly the "Son of God" as point out in the bible. Calling someone the "man Jesus Christ" is not the same as being the "son of man".

Again, equating the bible and Jesus speaking of his father as chauvinistic is again very short sighted. You have to realize a couple different issues. First, he is a deity. He does not have to have two parents. Second, the notion of women taking leadership roles is fairly new considering history was dominated with war. In war, women historically do not do well on the battle field when being pounded on with men with hand weapons. So, in that context many older writings in general are more than likely be male dominated. When might makes right in society only mighty are going to speak the message. Kind of interesting note. When Jesus rose again, the first people he reviled himself to were women. Women in the old society did not have legal standing as witnesses but he chose to show them first.

On the salamanders thing, if we evolved from a ooz, why would there be people that can not grow back their body parts since we supposedly came through the lizard phase?

I don't think you are getting it. The culture was much harsher back then. You can be put to death in the military code of justice for much, much less than you can in the civilian world. Why is that? You are pretty good at looking at things in your world but have no idea what other cultures consider violent. Your violence could just as easily be the way it is in the city. Never mind ancient civilizations. There is the problem I hear with many liberal minded people and that problem is this notion that life should be fair. There are no such guarantees in life. Only guarantee in life is the ability of all people to have salvation though Jesus. Not works, not what family you belong too, not how much money you contribute to a church or charities. It is a simple gift and when you are talking about eternity, then the very few years on earth at not even as memorable as a early morning blink of your eye.

So, why would Jesus have to repudiate anything. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. He was not sent to enforce the law but instead he was sent to fufill the law. I have not cherry picked anything considering I have offered zero verses to point that this is my definitive point to the way I believe. You also make a mistake in believing that Jesus was the "son of man". We was clearly the "Son of God" as point out in the bible. Calling someone the "man Jesus Christ" is not the same as being the "son of man".

Again, equating the bible and Jesus speaking of his father as chauvinistic is again very short sighted. You have to realize a couple different issues. First, he is a deity. He does not have to have two parents. Second, the notion of women taking leadership roles is fairly new considering history was dominated with war. In war, women historically do not do well on the battle field when being pounded on with men with hand weapons. So, in that context many older writings in general are more than likely be male dominated. When might makes right in society only mighty are going to speak the message. Kind of interesting note. When Jesus rose again, the first people he reviled himself to were women. Women in the old society did not have legal standing as witnesses but he chose to show them first.

On the salamanders thing, if we evolved from a ooz, why would there be people that can not grow back their body parts since we supposedly came through the lizard phase?

I can tell you cherry pick the bible because of your interpretation, excuses and scapegoating.

Homo Sapiens have been on the planet for at least 100,000 years. Francis Collins says 100,000 other geneticist and biologists say up to 250,000. Let's use 100,000 as the bare minimum. In order to be a Christian you have to believe that for 98,000 years our species suffered and died most of the children dying at child birth with life expectancy about 25 years. Famine, war, suffering all of 98,00 years. All this happening while God sits in heaven and watches. Then about 2000 years ago he decides he's had enough and intervenes. And the best way to do this would be by condemning someone to a human sacrifice in the Middle East where people were not very literate. Of course he didn't do it in a society that was actually literate where people can read and study evidence. If you love him he'll pay your debt. In fact you must love him or you'll be a sinner sentenced to hell for eternity. Wait, doesn't that sound like North Korea? I digress... If God is all knowing, all loving, all powerful, and created everything then why would he have created and allowed such barbarism?

Do you know how a rabbit eats? That alone is enough to prove life is not designed. No one would design an animal that MUST eat it's feces.

I know the bible calls for slavery but it's a horrible idea. It is a horrible idea that there is somebody who owns us, who makes us, who supervises us waking and sleeping. Who knows our thoughts, who can convict us of thought crime, who can judge us while we sleep, who can create us sick as apparently we are, and then order us on pain of eternal torture to be well again.

Also, the bible has stood up fairly well for several thousand years. It has lasted much longer than any man made institutions.

Say what? Did you learn that in Sunday school? The bible is riddled with errors.

Let’s grant the possibility that there is a creator god who is omniscient who occasionally authors books. He’s a loving god, he’s a compassionate god and he’s going to give us a guide to life. Just think of how good a book would be if it was authored by an omniscient deity. There is a not a single line in the bible that could not have been authored by a 1st century person. Not one. There are pages and pages on how to sacrifice animals, keep slaves, who to kill and why, but there’s nothing about electricity, DNA, or infectious disease. I can go into any barnes and noble blind folded and pull a book off the shelf which is going to have more relevance and more wisdom for the 21st Century than the bible. Everyone of our sciences has superseded and surpassed the scripture.

You mistake again in your lack of comprehension is the old testament was not authored by 1st century people. It was much older. The new testament was the last 2000 years. Again, the bible was not written to be about electricity. It was written about God, Jesus and how followers in Christ should be toward their fellow man. It has very little about modern science. Science has nothing to do with it. You can not science way human interaction. Look how well that works for California or even the former Soviet Union. Let me ask you this, what did the people of New Orleans rely on with the Hurricane came? All the science and technology in the world could not save them or even help them. Some turned on others and used that position to take advantage of others in the matter of hours. Others utilized Godly principles and helped one another. Look at your big cities. They have all the science you could ever have but yet kill each other by the hundreds yearly. Why is that. Science going to fix that? Nope. That is a human condition.

As far as your human over the years rant. Maybe God decided 2000 years ago that humans can finally handle a new way. Why don't you pray and read the bible and maybe God will help answer your questions. I don't even know where to begin with your statement about doing it in a society where people were literate. No one was hardly literate 8000 years ago. How do you convey things to people who learn through stories at best? As far as the new testament, it was 2000 years ago but people were hardly literate. Even with that, Jesus came in the Roman empire. Don't think you can get any more literate for the time than that.

Let me ask you this. If the bible is wrong, why did they find chariots in the middle of the red sea? How could such a none science book (which it is not meant to be), able to predict that in the end times that people from around the world will be able to see the last remaining of the 144,000 be killed. It says the whole world will be able to watch it at the same time. We just had a guy tweeting the Osama Bin Laden raid as it happened. How does something from several thousand years ago even able to comprehend that?

I don't know about the whole love me or go to hell business but all he simply said was to accept him and try and have a relationship with him. It is not a hard thing. I don't know why God does the things he does and it is not for me to worry about. Your time on earth is nothing compared to eternity. What is 70 years divided by infinity equal? None of your arguments for fairness hold water. That is the crux of your arguments really. It all boils down to what is fair or not. Life is not like that and never will be. God put you on earth for choice. Don't know why, but, here we are. You can either be angry about it or not. Sounds like you choose to be angry. Regardless of who you think you can stamp out or not give a pass, you are never going to make life fair. Just like California today and the ex soviet union of the past, you can not take human nature out of it. That is what the bible is about.

John,

The Quran is complete evil. Even Muhammad himself writes that he was approached by the Angle of Light. The Angel of Light is well spoken about in the bible as being Satan himself. This was written about well before the Quran and Islam even existed so it is not a case of adding in a statement to stop another religion. If you see the way islamic nations act, you can pretty much see the evil. They way they treat women, children, pagan rituals, and the list goes on and on.

Jimmy, no one here is trying to force you into believing something you obviously choose not to. If you don't want to believe in the Bible and Jesus then leave it alone so those of us who do choose to believe can do so. I am a believer but I do not wish to argue about it with you, that's not what Jesus did when he encountered someone who rejected him and that is not what I am going to do.

Why don't you pray and read the bible and maybe God will help answer your questions.

I know a few children who have died horribly despite being prayed for. And I think it's disgusting to suppose that those prayers were infererior to other people's. You pray and if god 'miracles' the child to health, well it's a miracle, praise be! If not, well then, god is still okay.

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Let me ask you this. If the bible is wrong, why did they find chariots in the middle of the red sea?

What charlatan did you hear that from? You are a case in point for people who fall prey to this stuff. Only a fool would take that story at it's face value. Here's the real story on "chariots". I suppose you believe in 20 foot tall men too.

The Truth:
Much of this eRumor is based on the findings of Ron Wyatt, a colorful and controversial amateur archeologist who claimed to have found Noah's ark, the Biblical Ark of the Covenant, the location of Sodom And Gomorrah, the Tower of Babel, the true site of Mt. Sinai, the true site of the crucifixion of Jesus, and the original stones of the Ten Commandments. He was a passionate and sincere man, according to his supporters, but his critics abound and scientists and archeologists regarded him as an untrained maverick at best and there are some who regarded his as a fraud. Wyatt died from cancer in 1999.

Wyatt's interest in the crossing of the Red Sea by the Hebrews became focused on the site of Nuweiba in Egypt because it seemed to fit some of the description of Biblical and historical accounts of the geography. It was while diving along the beach at Nuweiba that he found what he said were chariot parts.

During his first visit to Nuweiba in 1978 he found a large column lying on the beach that looked like an ancient artifact. Later he found that it had been set up by Egyptian authorities in concrete for display. He believed it to be a marker set up by King Solomon to note the crossing of the Red Sea.

It was on that same trip in 1978 that Wyatt found what he said were the remains of chariots and chariot wheels at the bottom of the sea. They were heavily covered with coral. Wyatt claimed to have retrieved one of the wheels and said an Egyptian authority declared that it was from the 18th dynasty of Ancient Egypt, but nobody seems to know where that chariot wheel is is now located.

Regarding the human bones found at the site, TruthOrFiction.com talked with Aaron Sen, one of those who has traveled to Nuweiba and who found the bones. He said the bones were authenticated as human at Stockholm University and are in the possession of professor Lennart Moller who was at Stockholm University in the late 1990s.

It was also discovered that there seems to be an underwater "bridge" of sea bed that is shallower than the depths on either side of it and that crosses from one side of the sea to the other. Wyatt said that could have been where the waters parted and made the way for the Hebrews to cross.

Wyatt's focus on Nuweiba and his claims of finding chariot remains on the floor of the sea have brought other adventurers to the site but even Wyatt's supporters urge caution about their enthusiastic findings. Richard Rives, the president of Wyatt Archeological Research in Tennessee, told journalist Joe Kovacs, "All kinds of people are finding coral and calling it chariot parts." Wyatt's wife, Mary Nell, told Kovacs the same. She went diving with Wyatt at the Red Sea site and said that at first she thought everything was a chariot wheel.

The bottom line is that at this point all that seems to exist to support the claims of chariot parts on the bottom of the red sea are pictures, most of which are of coral formations. No documented artifacts have been retrieved and preserved from the site and now the Egyptian government prohibits bringing any findings to the surface to the questions may remain for a long time to come.

Jimmy, no one here is trying to force you into believing something you obviously choose not to. If you don't want to believe in the Bible and Jesus then leave it alone so those of us who do choose to believe can do so. I am a believer but I do not wish to argue about it with you, that's not what Jesus did when he encountered someone who rejected him and that is not what I am going to do.

In other words Jimmy, the website could not prove it false. They pretty much do like you do. Talk around it and say it can not be proven (to their satisfaction). That is not proof against. The article only lists hear say from unknown people as to what they feel his qualifications are.

You did not mention a word about describing how the whole world will be able to see the last of the 144,000 being killed. How do you even come up with that several thousand years ago. How do you predict Israel become a nation again? You can't and neither can I.

You have been around several children who have been prayed over. Well, at least someone loved them. What did your science do for those children? We can play both parts to this game. You said science has surpassed all that God has done. Why did science not save these kids? The point is, it did nothing more than it could. Thankfully God allowed us to think and to use that power, but, it is not the end all.

Jimmy, I don't know what is weighing on you but you seem to be a very bitter person for some reason. You seem to want get back at "Christians" for some reason. You are only hurting yourself. The world is and was filled with people like you. From the Roman's who through the Christians to the lions, to Hitler who sent several million to the camps as well as Jews, to Communism trying to replace God with the State. Christian is not about Dogma. That is paganism you are mistaking for Christianity. Christianity is simply a gift and a relationship choice. I or even you don' t have to do much to accept that.

But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that.

Look man. This is fun and all but we can do this forever. I sense that there is something obviously weighing on you. You are always welcome in anything I do. Have a good night and see you in another thread in a few days.

I won't let you get away with that reply. You seem to have lost (or never had) your rational thinking and reasoning skills. And you didn't seem to follow my previous posts regarding Francis Collins who is a Christian geneticist. He says, homo sapiens have been on this earth for 100,000 years. The new testament is only 2000 years old so that means God stood by for 98,000 years and let the people suffer and die before deciding to intervene. Now really, most evolutionary biologists, scientists, and geneticists believe the numbers are more like 200,000 to 250,000. Which would mean that God really let people suffer for 248,000 years.

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Originally Posted by deltahoosier

In other words Jimmy, the website could not prove it false. They pretty much do like you do. Talk around it and say it can not be proven (to their satisfaction). That is not proof against. The article only lists hear say from unknown people as to what they feel his qualifications are.

No, your reasoning is flawed. When someone says something is true the onus is on the individual making the claim to prove that it is in-fact true. Get it? If I tell you there is an invisible leperachaun living on my shoulder you would either demand proof or dismiss me as crazy. One cannot just make claims like this that go unchallenged. This is how you contribute to spreading this garbage.

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You did not mention a word about describing how the whole world will be able to see the last of the 144,000 being killed. How do you even come up with that several thousand years ago. How do you predict Israel become a nation again? You can't and neither can I.

This is your proof? I'm not sure what your trying to get at about the 144,000. I know the significance of the number within Christianity but I'm not sure what your asking me.

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You have been around several children who have been prayed over. Well, at least someone loved them. What did your science do for those children? We can play both parts to this game. You said science has surpassed all that God has done. Why did science not save these kids? The point is, it did nothing more than it could. Thankfully God allowed us to think and to use that power, but, it is not the end all.

That is intellectually dishonest of you to compare praying to science and medicine. As if they are of the same importance with the same reliability. Science has saved thousand and thousands of people. When you get sick do you go to the doctor? Would you simply pray if you had cancer? I'll bet you wouldn't.

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Jimmy, I don't know what is weighing on you but you seem to be a very bitter person for some reason. You seem to want get back at "Christians" for some reason. You are only hurting yourself. The world is and was filled with people like you. From the Roman's who through the Christians to the lions, to Hitler who sent several million to the camps as well as Jews, to Communism trying to replace God with the State. Christian is not about Dogma. That is paganism you are mistaking for Christianity. Christianity is simply a gift and a relationship choice. I or even you don' t have to do much to accept that.

But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that.

Look man. This is fun and all but we can do this forever. I sense that there is something obviously weighing on you. You are always welcome in anything I do. Have a good night and see you in another thread in a few days.

Weighing on me is how Christians much like yourself critique everything in life except what you hold dearest. The dogma, the ignorance, the lies, the wishful thinking, the proselytizing, your impact on politics, trying to teach "intelligent design" beside real science classes, how you brainwash the masses, your contradictions to science etc. Don't forget what faith is. Strong belief for which there is no evidence. How do you know your books are free from error? Because the books themselves say so! How's that for proof?

I don't start these threads but you can guarantee that if I see any pro-religion dogma I'll be responding. World religions and mythology are topics I find very interesting. I'm also continue to be amazed at what some people believe in the 21st Century.

Jimmy, no one here is trying to force you into believing something you obviously choose not to. If you don't want to believe in the Bible and Jesus then leave it alone so those of us who do choose to believe can do so. I am a believer but I do not wish to argue about it with you, that's not what Jesus did when he encountered someone who rejected him and that is not what I am going to do.

David, didn't you read the title of the thread and the OP? This thread is about judging religion. If you want your religion left alone, best not to be here.

Faith? You mean like evolution Jimmy ;o) again, you are a living contridiction. Good luck with your hate fest. I don't live by any dogma buddy. Again your ignorance gets the best of you. I don't have to do anything for my salvation but to ask. Simple as that. You keep confusing paganism with christianity and that I can agree with you on. You can keep stomping your feet if you want, but, you come off as angry and bitter. I am not going to answer your questions anymore. I am not much of a religious and praying person, but, I will say a prayer for you. Life is not fair buddy deal with it.

Jo, I mainly answered this for you. Islam and Christianity does not worship the same god. The pope seems to think so when he made a speech and said it. Islam was started by Muhammad. During his time, all the Arab tribes each had their own god. Including Muhammad's. They would all gather in Mecca for a yearly ritual called the Hadge (sp?). All the tribes gods were represented in Mecca. Muhammad while meditating in isolation in a cave outside Medina had a vision when he was approached by the angel of light. The angel of light was spoke about in the bible as being satan himself. Muhammad then went back to Medina and preached well of Christians and Jews and wrote about it early in the Quran. Then as the Christians and Jews rejected his teaching, he then switched his tone and started preaching hatefully against them and decided to convert them by the sword. Somewhere in the story he also tried to preach to the people of Mecca and was rejected. He then gathered a army of 10,000 men in Medina. He then went and conquered Mecca. The city leaders convinced him to allow them to keep the Hadge due to the financial impact. During the hadge, they perform animal sacrifice and other rituals. So, at the end of it, all the other gods were no longer allowed except for the one God. That one god was the god of muhammad's tribe. That was the moon god named allah.

You have to realize that in the three religions after Christ only one has a God that can save you. In Islam and Catholicism, God can not save you. You ultimately are weighed by the scales of justice (your works through life, more good than bad) or in both religions you can also obtain the after life through being a Martyr. Though Catholicism has not used this in some time, it is actually part of the doctrine and was used at least once during a call for one of the crusades. Today in Islam, you actually see Martyr used quite often. In Catholicism and Islam, your path to heaven is not a simple gift, it is a life long journey based on ritual (dogma). Christianity is the only religion of the three that has a God that saves. Instead of you trying to become God like in your ways to achieve Heaven (a very self absorbed act), you simply accept the gift that was given to you by Jesus Christ dying on the cross. Then with that, you try and seek fellowship with God. It is not mandated but a want. That is where the bible comes in. That is God's lessons to us to help us not to be lead astray.

That is why Christians generally say Catholics are not Christian. Islam and Catholicism actually share more in common than Christianity and Catholicism. Did you know that the rosary used in Catholicism actually came from Islam?

Faith? You mean like evolution Jimmy ;o) again, you are a living contridiction. Good luck with your hate fest. I don't live by any dogma buddy. Again your ignorance gets the best of you. I don't have to do anything for my salvation but to ask. Simple as that. You keep confusing paganism with christianity and that I can agree with you on. You can keep stomping your feet if you want, but, you come off as angry and bitter. I am not going to answer your questions anymore. I am not much of a religious and praying person, but, I will say a prayer for you. Life is not fair buddy deal with it.
...

Thanks for sharing that nice children's fairy tale.

Your comparing evolution to faith. You are either being dishonest or you are completely blind. Science has this thing we like to call empirical evidence.Again, faith is strong belief for which there is NO evidence. It's blind faith. How about you stop claiming to know things you CANNOT possibly know? Religion is the only part of our society that allows such claims based on absolutely zero evidence. If we were to see someone talking into their hair dryer and they said that they were talking to God, we would send them to the asylum. But if you take away the hair dryer, it's only praying.

Jimmy, do you rage much? I don't go to an organized church at all bud. I don't think you know what I do for a living either so I would not exactly lecture me on science. Human's coming from evolution has a what is said in the science and math community, a zero probability of happening. What do you mean zero evidence. Jesus had many witnesses and even witnesses to his death and resurrection. Including the fact that the Great Roman empire is the ones who killed him. If you have to discount that then you have to discount most tid bits from history. You are not being intellectually honest. You are just raging and it is hilarious.

Also, I don't think it is a childs fairy tale that you are a angry bitter person.

Again, you miss the point. Religion deals with human nature and the soul regardless of science. Something you obviously can not grasp. Keep raging bud.

Jimmy, do you rage much? I don't go to an organized church at all bud. I don't think you know what I do for a living either so I would not exactly lecture me on science.

Clearly your not a scientist. Any respectable scientist knows the difference between faith and scientific theory and would never make the comments you made. No scientist in their right mind would compare prayer to medicine. Especially if you ever wanted a respectable job.

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Human's coming from evolution has a what is said in the science and math community, a zero probability of happening.

More lies. I'm starting to think your just in denial. An overwhelming majority of the scientific community and academia accepts evolution as the dominant scientific theory of our origin. Some estimates put this number at 99%. You would be lucky to find 5% of REAL scientists who believe in creationism.

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What do you mean zero evidence. Jesus had many witnesses and even witnesses to his death and resurrection. Including the fact that the Great Roman empire is the ones who killed him. If you have to discount that then you have to discount most tid bits from history. You are not being intellectually honest. You are just raging and it is hilarious.

But what are you basing that on? You reason in a circle. You can't quote the bible to prove the bible.

"Islam and Christianity does not worship the same god"
For all of the religions who believe there is only one God and if there is only one God, then they are praying to the same God. This is not a hard concept to understand Delta. There are many different christian religions, but it is the same God. Some people on here think the catholics worship a different God, wrong! It's the same God. The muslims believe in one god and that god made everything, the christians believe their God made everything. There aren't two gods that each made half the world. There is only one God and he made everything, whether he is muslim, christian, or whatever every religion that worships one God, if true, is worshiping the same god, if this statement is false, then your religion is false.

Your wasting your time Jo. Delta's been drinking the kool-aid of his puppet masters. Everyone knows that the two Gods are the same with ideological differences. Muslim's even believe Jesus was a messenger of their same God, as was Mohammed. No matter 2 myths don't make a truth. Seems kind of silly to argue over which fanasy is the real one.

It isn't the "God", it is the message and the incentives. How many of you have actually read the Koran (or Quran). I identified this great evil in '92 while in college and have been aware if it ever since. The Koran isn't equivalent to the Bible. The Koran, Hadith and Sira combined would be roughly the same as the Bible. There is no history and biographical info in the Koran like there is in the bible. The Koran is just a random series of versus (called Surah's ) which lend themselves to extremism.

Islam and the Koran extol instant entry into heaven and 72 virgins if a Muslim dies while battling non-muslims. You don't see that as a pretty substantial difference between Islam and other religions?

The Koran preaches hatred of Jews in clear terms.
Non-muslims are not permitted entry into Mecca.
You can be prosecuted and jailed for bringing a Bible into Islamic Countries.

Almost every non-violent, peaceful surah in the Koran is overwritten/trumped by a violent passage which any Islamic scholar with any honesty will confirm. When versus contradict each other follow the verse written last (the newest) which is always the violent versus because Mohamed was peaceful at certain periods then a brutal murderer later.

Know the facts before you try to argue about something you know nothing about. There is nothing more misguided than trying to compare Islam to other religions. Comparing Islam to Nazism is a far more reasonable comparison.

Clearly your not a scientist. Any respectable scientist knows the difference between faith and scientific theory and would never make the comments you made. No scientist in their right mind would compare prayer to medicine. Especially if you ever wanted a respectable job.

Of course no scientist would compare prayer and medicine in the context you are trying to apply it. I was more mocking you than anything. Point was, medicine and prayer did about as much for the people that you were so angry about. Why were you not angry at medicine since medicine or God did not help. You seem to only be angry about people praying, but, not at the medicine. Seems like the outlook of a child.

Evolution is just a theory, thus it is faith that they will find the answer. Evolution is a battle of survival of the fittest. If your version is weak, then it will cease to exist. That is what evolution does. If you actually saw the math for everything to come together to create life (which we seem to not to be able to do except for one brief experiment in a non livable environment), it is by all definition impossible. That means regardless of your made up states on how many scientists believe in evolution (evolution of man starting from some space dust), they and you are still relying on faith. Even if evolution is correct, it still does not exclude a high power breathing conscience in to the human. To deny the math is being intellectually dishonest which you seem to take great pride in. I respect the fact there can be both. You on the other hand have a agenda, thus biased, thus non-scientific in your rational.

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More lies. I'm starting to think your just in denial. An overwhelming majority of the scientific community and academia accepts evolution as the dominant scientific theory of our origin. Some estimates put this number at 99%. You would be lucky to find 5% of REAL scientists who believe in creationism.

You are sure free with calling people a liar. You sound like a spoiled brat. Made up stats by you do not equal facts. The math does not add up. The percentage of all details coming together and then the magic "life" starting from nothing angle does not support reality. That is why it is just a theory thus faith. In absence of fact, you have faith. I would put the creationist at no better position that the religious in proof. Then add in the fact that religious people are more apt to believe you can have both is a much healthier position than to say one way is absolutely true. You are the one lying to yourself and others to say it is a fact. A real scientist would say that the math does not add up, it is a theory, thus I will not play it off as a fact and would admit he or she does not know.

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But what are you basing that on? You reason in a circle. You can't quote the bible to prove the bible.

No circle. There are historical records outside the bible and well as in the bible. What is so hard about that. Why do I need to quote the bible to you for. You don't even believe it so what would be the point. You are just bitter and are arguing for the sake of arguing. You are not going to change my mind no matter how many convincing "you're a liar" or the ever convincing "You're delusional" arguments you make. I bet if do another personal attack against my intellect, you will certainly convince me I am wrong.

Jo,

Your argument my hold up if we were not talking two different issues.

First, Islam was from a culture of multiple God's. It was only unified under Mohammad's tribal God, the moon god named Allah. Just because you reference Jesus, does not mean you are talking apples and apples at the end of the day. Jesus was very clear what the way to heaven is and it is not through scales of justice (life of works). Like I also said Muhammad was quoted as to being approached by the Angel of Light. The bible seems to be quite clear on who that is.

Second, In regards to Catholicism and Christianity, in Catholicism it was Christian themes mixed with Pagan God's. That is why you know have the patron saint of such and such city. They replaced the local town god with a person from the bible. Also, in the Catholic church they believe you can vote someone to deity status. They are trying that now with the last pope by making him a saint and thus eligible to pray to him. The bible is quite clear in regards to praying to others.
The other aspect is the Catholic Church believes the pope infallible aka perfect. This have been reaffirmed once if not twice by either the council of trent or the vatican I or II, councils. The pope in history has used martyr as a way to heaven as does islam.

Point is, Islam came from and Catholicism believes in multiple deity's. Not just God. They believe the pope is basically a God since only Gods are infallible. They can elect men to deity status. At least that is what I would call it if you think you can pray to them and they can hear you or anyone else in the world at the same time. Islam's God is the moon god allah who only became the top god when a man got a army and killed the people who did not believe him. Catholics also killed and tortured those who did not believe them either. They also killed Christian's who did not believe in the multiple deity idea. They threw them to the lions. If two groups are the same religion, then why would one throw the other to the lions for believing the same thing?

Christians believe you are saved by faith and then have a relationship with God. Catholics and Islam believe you are saved by works (being god like as possible). If you did not make it in the current life, you can be voted in later by other men praying to other deity's to argue on your behalf. Would it not stand to reason if they really believed in the same God, they would all save you in the same way?

Would it not stand to reason if they really believed in the same God, they would all save you in the same way?

No. That would be assuming God is real and therefore would give all his followers the same message and consequently there would be a need for only one religious sect. The reasons why there are ideological differences between the same God and the same followers of the same son of God is because the message depends on who's doing the interpretation.

That is not true John. Stay with the actual discussion that you are involving yourself in. That discussion you are commenting on is the different religions, not your opinion if there is a God or not. The basis that God would mandate a single religion is not true. According to the bible, you are put on earth for a choice/ free will and the bible also speaks about satan having the power to mislead which includes creating false religions. I would say staying within the context of God being real, the different religions do not believe the same thing regardless of general cross reference of deities Though God of the bible is clear on the way to salvation (ask for it) he does not mandate that humans have one sect. That is where choice comes in and the power of satan to deceive. The reason for different interpretation is human's throwing in the human element and using man made aspects of man made religion to control people. None of it is biblical, but, is close enough to get people to go along. That is the dogma that many confuse with being a Christian. There is no Dogma in being a Christian. It is a simple gift and the yearning to learn more about your heavenly father. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less.