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Yes, thanks folks, Welcome Pack sounds about our speed right now, one of the main reasons being OTA local reception requiring a lot more jiggery-pokery than we're interested in, (we're out in the sticks here, let's face it) and of course the simple dvr functionality we've become accustomed to with the 211k

A PC running Windows 7 with Windows Media Center and an OTA tuner card. They can be had relatively cheap ie. under $500, maybe less if you want to go Refurb. Add as big a second HDD as you choose (Mine is 1TB). Mine also has a full function remote control. And I have a 2TB external HDD. No encryption, so easy to transfer to another device!!

You'll have full DVR type functions as far as scheduled recordings. Playback at will with Pause, FF, Rev, etc.

With a DVD/BR drive, you can play your discs, etc.

Drives are nearly loaded up with recordings right now as I'm planning on dropping Dish after this annual renewal since they will be dropping the DVR fee credit.

Add to that...you can also use a XBox360 with the above as a media extender for the above, should you need a second room tv, or just not want a computer sitting under your tv.

I have the above setup in a media closet with two OTA tuners, and one FTA satellite tuner. Have PlayOn installed for access to internet content. I am using SageTv which is no longer available, but it works exactly the same way as SayWhat's suggestion. Its very workable.

Most of the Tivo boxes have 2 built-in OTA tuners. You still have a fee associated with the box, though. On the used market, you might be able to pick up a DTVPal.

As for OTA reception, it's actually not difficult for most people in most locations. A quality rooftop antenna with a preamplifier will do wonders for many locations. Check your particular location on TVFool, and if your signal strength for all your locals is better than -100dB, you should have no significant issues with a rooftop antenna.

Most of the Tivo boxes have 2 built-in OTA tuners. You still have a fee associated with the box, though. On the used market, you might be able to pick up a DTVPal.

As for OTA reception, it's actually not difficult for most people in most locations. A quality rooftop antenna with a preamplifier will do wonders for many locations. Check your particular location on TVFool, and if your signal strength for all your locals is better than -100dB, you should have no significant issues with a rooftop antenna.

Again, the Welcome Pak makes THE most sense with their existing DISH equipment. The (monthly) Tivo fee is the SAME price as the Welcome Pak; plus the WP gives them about 20 national channels - on TOP of all their local channels.

You then still have all the upfront costs of the antenna, pre-amp, Tivo itself, etc. Their existing DISH receiver/HDD (DVR) has NO other monthly costs. If they wanted to add a 2nd 211k, it would only add another $7/month to their bill, & they could also add a HDD to it for another DVR receiver for no added costs from DISH. (the $40 EHD enabling fee they already paid, is good for ALL receivers on one account)

Here's a link to ota hd-dvr's; I subscribe to Direct and I also have a Dish DTV Pal Dvr for my ota option. I figger that if money gets too tight I can drop Direct and use the ota option supplemented with Netflix streaming for $7 a month.

For what it is worth there are new models of the Magnavox DVD recorders with hard drives. Now 320Gb, 500Gb and 1Tb models. And you can edit the video and burn it to a DVD too. Link to the AVS forum messages about them, 722 pages worth now. http://www.avsforum....ilips-3576-3575

They need manual timers but the output isn't bad to my eyes despite being 720 by 480 resolution when recorded for HD channels. When setting a manual timer you can set the name that will be displayed on the recording.

I have my older model set for 30 Second forward skip and 5 Second reverse Skip to make it work like My DVR is set. The video displays in the OAR on my HDTV and after a couple of seconds you forget it is recording somewhere in-between SD and HD resolution. You own it an no subscription fee. I use mine to record any third locals channel that conflicts in my two tuner Satellite DVR.

For what it is worth there are new models of the Magnavox DVD recorders with hard drives. Now 320Gb, 500Gb and 1Tb models. And you can edit the video and burn it to a DVD too. Link to the AVS forum messages about them, 722 pages worth now. http://www.avsforum....ilips-3576-3575

They need manual timers but the output isn't bad to my eyes despite being 720 by 480 resolution when recorded for HD channels. When setting a manual timer you can set the name that will be displayed on the recording.

I have my older model set for 30 Second forward skip and 5 Second reverse Skip to make it work like My DVR is set. The video displays in the OAR on my HDTV and after a couple of seconds you forget it is recording somewhere in-between SD and HD resolution. You own it an no subscription fee. I use mine to record any third locals channel that conflicts in my two tuner Satellite DVR.

Those Magnavox units are really nice for what they are, a machine to make dvd's of tv programs. But after using a Dish dvr, most people will go crazy trying to make do with the vcr-like interface. Plus they only have one tuner to record with. Using it as a back-up recorder to your Dish dvr is a smart way to use it. Using it as a primary recorder would be very frustrating. I still have a Panasonic DMR-EH75V dvd recorder w/80gb hdd that I archive shows from my Dish dvr. I use a pc tuner to record ota programs in hd for channels that Dish doesn't have in hd locally (The CW and PBS).

If I was going back to strictly ota, I would spend the money and either get a Tivo w/lifetime or a WMC pc with tv tuners. Great menus, very flexible and they both record in HD.

HD TiVo with lifetime subscription is about the same price as that CM tuner - and you get two tuners AND you can copy recordings to your PC for later saving to DVD/commercial removal, etc.

TiVo notes that the newest HD TiVo's (Premiere 4 and Premiere XL4) aren't compatible with OTA. They feature four QAM tuners and no OTA tuners. The Premiere still handles OTA but it is questionable how much longer it will be offered.

The Channel Master (Echostar) has two tuners.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK

I've been using a Magnavox MDR-513 for over a year and it has worked great. I've never had a problem with having enough space if you are wondering which model to buy. It can only record in SD, but it up-scales the SD video to HD for my 42" TV making it look really good. Does a better job of up-scaling than my Sony Blu-Ray player does with DVDs. The Magnavox DVR also has a cable tuner that receives clear QAM channels. If you have cable internet to your home, you'll probably get a lot of clear QAM local channels for free over that same cable. Only problem is it can only operate the cable tuner or OTA tuner one at a time; it can't do both at one time. It can pause liver recordings and do all the normal DVR stuff. Programming is time based VCR style. I don't have a problem with that, but some people might.

I tried the ChannelMaster DVR before the Magnavox, but it could not receive the TV Guide channel guide in my area. Somehow this is supposed to be broadcast by an OTA station, but none of my locals did it. It also does not have the clear QAM capability. I've been happy with the Magnavox, but I just signed up for Dish with the VIP-211K and plan to add a spare external hard drive to give it DVR capability.