Afternoon Hearing on 26 March 2012

Hearing Transcript

(2.00 pm) MS BOONSir, the next witnesses today are Anne Pickles and Nick Griffiths. MR NICK GRIFFITHS (sworn) MS ANNE PICKLES (sworn) Questions by MS BOON LORD JUSTICE LEVESONSo we've moved from Suffolk to Cumbria? MS BOONWe have, sir. Ms Pickles, please give your full name. MS PICKLESAnne Pickles. Q. You have provided a witness statement to the Inquiry. The copy I have isn't signed or dated, but is that what you have in front of you? MS PICKLESIt is, yes. Q. Do you confirm that the contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? MS PICKLESI do. Q. Is it your evidence to the Inquiry? MS PICKLESIt is. Q. You've been associate editor at Cumbria Newspapers since 2006; is that right? MS PICKLESThat's right, yes. Q. You're responsible for content management across the main titles? MS PICKLESMm-hm. Q. You're also a lead writer, feature writer and columnist? MS PICKLESThat's right. Q. For the past four months you've been acting editor responsible for the daily tabloid, which is the News Star, and the Cumberland News, which is the weekly broadsheet? MS PICKLESUntil February, yes. Q. So you're no longer acting? MS PICKLESNo, I'm associate editor now still. Q. I see. Previously you were features editor and assistant editor at the Yorkshire Evening Post, Leeds? MS PICKLESYes. Q. Your career in journalism spans 39 years? MS PICKLESYes. Q. Mr Griffiths, please give your full name. MR GRIFFITHSI'm Nick Griffiths, crime reporter of the News Star. Q. You've also provided a witness statement to the Inquiry, again not signed or dated. Do you have that in front of you? MR GRIFFITHSI do, yes. Q. Do you confirm that the contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? MR GRIFFITHSI do. Q. Is it your formal evidence to the Inquiry? MR GRIFFITHSYes. Q. You're crime reporter for the News Star and also the Cumberland News, and you have been since September 2004? MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. Your patch covers North and West Cumbria and Dumfries and Galloway? MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. You began your career as a journalist in 1998. You've always worked as a reporter, although before 1998 you were involved in general reporting as well as crime reporting. MR GRIFFITHSNo, I have been I was crime reporter from 2004 onwards. I was a general reporter before that. Q. I see. Sorry, you began your career in 1998. My mistake. MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. I would like to ask you both about your impression of the culture of relations between the media and Cumbria Constabulary. Ms Pickles, first of all, at paragraph 2 of your statement, you say you've always been a local and/or regional journalist. MS PICKLESYes. Q. You also state that the events which triggered this Inquiry are a world away from anything you or your colleagues at any of the newspapers for which you've worked have encountered. Would you describe then your experiences of dealing with the police? MS PICKLESAs a local and regional journalist, my relationships with the police have necessarily been built on a mutual trust and respect, with both press and police understanding very well that we serve a common purpose and a common community. So as journalists, we build contacts and hope for some kind of rapport of trust with police officers. That's the nature of the game. We ask questions and we hope that they're able to answer them for us. When they are not able to answer them for us, we trust and believe that there's a very good reason for that. Q. To what extent is there trust between you and the Police Service? MS PICKLESIn Cumbria? Q. Yes. MS PICKLESI'm aware of no issues of mistrust, distrust. Q. Either way? MS PICKLESEither way. Q. In terms of ensuring that a contact remains appropriate, doesn't become overly close, where, in your view, does the boundary lie? MS PICKLESWell, it's there is there has to be and in Cumbria, within Cumbria Newspapers, anyway, there is a solid and well-regarded ethos of professionalism. You have to remember that the county we're from is large geographically, very sparsely populated. It's often said that Cumbria's a village. It is small, and police are our neighbours. They we understand that we are an the media is an extra resource to for the Police Service. They understand that they, through us, serve their communities. So that professional approach to our work is there every day in every possible issue. It contrasts hugely to anything that might have triggered this Inquiry. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONDo you see that you're also there to hold the police to account? MS PICKLESOh yes, of course. I think they understand that too. MS BOONAgain, at paragraph 2 of your statement, you state that you believe that accountability and accessibility are the bedrock of local and regional newspapers. MS PICKLESMm-hm. Q. I have been asked to ask you by a core participant whether you consider it in your judgment that the national media are accountable and accessible in the same way? MS PICKLESNo. Q. Why not? MS PICKLESWell, because throughout my career in local and regional journalism I have experienced, obviously, stories and incidents that both local and national press have taken an interest in. It's always been my experience that national media are able to sweep in, do what they do and sweep out again into some sort of black hole of anonymity. The local press and regional press, we have to live with the people on whose lives we are reporting. We live and work with those people every day. They are part of our community. The mantra of Cumbria Newspapers is that the titles remain at the heart of the communities they serve and we have to be mindful of that. So the way we work and the way the national media not only press but also broadcasting work are just entirely different. Absolutely entirely different. Q. It's a quite historic example, but you do refer to the conduct of the national media during the investigation into the murders by Peter Sutcliffe. MS PICKLESYes. Q. And you state that the national media, to use your impression, rolled into Leeds and Bradford this is question 3, page 58544. MS PICKLESYes. Q. That they rolled into Leeds and Bradford with chequebooks to lead the national and international scrum for an exclusive at any price. You say there was a discernible shift in police/press relations: "Police officers became nervous of trusting journalists. Some, it was suspected, may have trusted a touch too easily." That was a historic example. Do you consider that the behaviour of the national media has improved since then in terms of reporting of local high-profile incidents? MS PICKLESNot significantly. That period actually was the period that formed my opinion that I should always be a local or regional journalist. I didn't I wasn't impressed by what I'd seen. There was no accountability then. I think high-profile incidents more recently in Cumbria have shown a similar drive by national and international media, both print and broadcasting, to grab whatever they can and then disappear again, pay for it if necessary. I've always taken the view that if you have to pay a lot of money for information, it's probably not worth having in the first place. So, no, I actually don't think there's been a huge improvement over the years. Q. I've been asked to ask you in relation to your last words: "Some, it was suspected, may have trusted a touch too easily." I've been asked to ask you what you mean by this, police trusting "too easily". MS PICKLESI've had to think quite hard about relationships with police officers and how they've changed since then. I mean, we're going back a long way there, you know, and I think journalists in those days were quite proud to have favourite senior police officers and some senior police officers had favourite contacts within the media, and it all did get a little chummy at some points. There's a completely different culture these days. I mean, we're all more aware of how dangerous those relationships can be, and really well, clearly it is seen elsewhere, but I don't think you see it in the regions much these days. Q. So when you're referring to officers trusting too easily, do you mean within these close relationships that you've described? A. Yes. Q. Mr Griffiths, please describe in your own words your impression of the culture of relations between your newspaper or the newspapers you write for and the police. MR GRIFFITHSGenerally pretty good. We're both sort of after the same ends, really. We're both there trying to get across certain information to the public. We want to transmit that to the public as well. Certainly from my own point of view, there's a trust there. It's generally working quite well. Q. Do you have any concerns about the relationship at all? MR GRIFFITHSNot in general. I mean, there's practical things you can sort of moan about from a journalist's point of view, about speed of information and things like that, but nothing sort of fundamentally wrong. The relationship's always been fine, as long as I've been a crime reporter. They've been pretty open on, you know, most things, down from your sort of messages you want to get out to people at sort of the most basic level through to the major incidents we've had. It's worked quite well with that as well, and ongoing reorganisation of the force, they've always been open, willing to sort of go into depth in interviews and so on, yeah. Q. Ms Pickles, you give an interesting example in your statement of the police seeking advice from the media following the tragedy of the shootings in June 2010. Can you describe those circumstances? MS PICKLESYes. You I'm sure you can imagine how chaotic, to some extent, that all was. It unfolded very, very quickly. My understanding of it was, from the previous editor, who was approached for this advice, that some national crime reporters had approached the police and asked for preferential treatment. They'd wanted information first, before it was given to local media. This led to the police contacting the police communications department contacting the editor and telling him what request had been made, did he have a problem with this, did he want to be part of so they were asking for off-the-record briefings, my understanding is. And his advice was: "Absolutely not. You shouldn't be favouring one section of the media above another in any incident, never mind this one, and no." But that decision had already been made by the police, so he kind of endorsed, I suppose, or reinforced that decision, so that information was made available to everyone at the same time as and when it became right to make that information available. Q. You refer to "some crime reporters". Are you able to say whether it was the Crime Reporters Association as an organisation or whether it was just certain crime reporters? MS PICKLESMy understanding is that it was the Crime Reporters Association, but LORD JUSTICE LEVESONJournalists, presumably, from that? MS PICKLESUh-huh, yeah. MS BOONAnd this evidence comes from what the former editor told you? MS PICKLESYes. Q. You refer to a meeting that followed, where the police briefed you on what would follow in the complex inquest hearings. MS PICKLESYes. We had 13 inquests. You can imagine how terribly sensitive the whole thing was. I think as I've described, this is a small community and it was so terribly tragic, it touched everybody. The editor and, I believe, the editor of the Whitehaven News, met in my editor's office in Carlisle with some I believe the director of communications and a senior police officer, for a briefing on how those inquests would be ordered, those 13 inquests would be ordered, so that we could adequately staff those inquests and give contemporaneous coverage, but also to establish with us that particularly some particularly gruesome evidence might be reported very sensitively because people were suffering enough, to be honest with you, and that undertaking was given willingly and the sensitivity was monitored right through those proceedings by the senior editorial team, I being one of them. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONDo you know whether that briefing had been given to the nationals? MS PICKLESI don't. I don't. MS BOONI don't mean to ask you to repeat any evidence unnecessarily, but another phrase that I pick up from your statement is you describe the level of contact, or the system of contact as an "old-fashioned system of communication". What do you mean by that? LORD JUSTICE LEVESONNot pigeon? MS PICKLESClose. Where it is it is kind of old-fashioned and possibly a bit cumbersome, but it does work. Nick does has a face-to-face meeting every morning at the police station, running through what might have happened overnight, look at what might be bubbling around in terms of crime trends, and then he comes back to the office and we share that and we look at what's going on. We staff our local courts as a matter of course. Some days we come away with nothing much, but we're there because we understand that we represent the public in a public hearing, and somebody has to be there. We use we make heavy use of our press office, the police press office. I'm sure we badger them a lot more than they would like, because there's only two of them. They're very tiny now because they've been subject to cuts like everybody else. So we're not exactly whiz bang in terms of perhaps national media and some of the perhaps big four publishers, you know, big four groups. We are local. We use our local police station, we use our local office to let us know what's going on. So, yeah, it can be a bit cumbersome. We do make heavy demands on the police, because we expect them to know what our deadlines are and meet them, and they must shout about us a lot sometimes, I think. Q. I understand that Cumbria Constabulary does use social media such as Twitter and Facebook. Do you use those as means of obtaining information from the police? MS PICKLESWell, that's yes. Twitter is a personal irritant. I don't know quite I wouldn't have thought it was I can't speak for the paper's policy on it but since officers have started tweeting, it's become an obstacle, really, for us. It's almost a full-time job now, monitoring Twitter for police officers' tweets, and then of course, once they're out, they're completely out of control. Nobody's monitoring Twitter. So it's followed by all sorts of threads and streams coming after an officer's tweet. You get a point where it may be a touch ambiguous. You go to the press office: "I've just seen a tweet that says blah, blah has happened." "We have no information on that. Try tweeting the officer involved." From our point of view, it wastes time and it's just it's just a blurring and a fudging of what was really quite a streamlined way of getting information. So it's a selfish point of view, but I do find I do find this rushing to Twitter by the police a touch irritating. Q. What's your view on that, Mr Griffiths? MR GRIFFITHSI pretty much echo it, to be honest. There's sort of established procedures of getting information out to us, and it like Anne said, it's more of an irritant, really. There's little sound bites, little bits of information coming out, not a lot of substance there, and it's sometimes trouble then putting meat on the bones to get it in a format that we can use. We've got very sort of strict guidelines ourselves on style and checking facts and making sure everything's all the information's there that the reader would need, whereas these 140-character things coming out about an incident that the office themselves has probably just dealt with, in my view, is a lot more sort of well, it's not as grounded and not as well-rounded as we would put in the paper to give out to the public. Q. Is it not helpful in that it brings to your attention an incident that might not otherwise have come to your attention? Then you can follow it up by contacting the press office to get more information. MR GRIFFITHSWe should be getting that anyway. MS PICKLESI think if we're it takes us into an area, doesn't it, of information that is authorised and unauthorised? So you see a tweet that says, "I just finished a drugs raid in Maryport", 140 characters. That's about all you're going to get. There's nothing you can do with that, absolutely nothing, apart from go to the press office and say, "Can you tell me about this drugs raid in Maryport? Can you tell me what went "Well, no. I don't know. There's only two of us here. One's doing Tweet the officer who It's almost teasing. It just isn't formal release of information. Okay, it's a sound bite, it's a tip, but it's not a very useful tip if you can't authorise it afterwards. Q. What about where there isn't the 140-character limit? For instance, Facebook or one of those sorts of media, where a full report can be given to you. Are those used by the force? MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. Are they more useful? MR GRIFFITHSWell, it's just a press release that's going up. So I suppose it's useful for getting certain information out, but press releases don't always have, in my opinion, the information they should have that the public would need. So I think the more reliable form is more rounded form is what the media can offer. Q. Going back to the old-fashioned system of communication, Ms Pickles has said that you will go to the police station every day to speak to people. MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. So your contact with individual officers is a daily thing. MR GRIFFITHSWell, most days. If I can't get down there, it will be over the phone, but yes. Q. You've built up a rapport with a number of officers over the years? MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Well, you're working with these people. It's a daily thing. You go down and you spend 20 minutes with them going through whatever's happened overnight and what messages they want to get out, what crimes they want highlighted as really needing an appeal for information, and obviously it's like working with anybody. If you're there every day, you know, you build up a rapport. Q. You mention that you have been, on occasion, given an officer's personal mobile phone number or home telephone number. Why was that done? MR GRIFFITHSBasically for there's a lot of work you do where you'll get given certain information, and perhaps it's a failing on my part, but after I've put down the phone and taken my notes, I sometimes need to ring back and check things for accuracy or I'd forgotten to ask something. Not everything you work on is to be filed in 30 minutes. Sometimes it's for a deadline in three days' time and just as a matter of course, I'll say to someone: "Are you around this afternoon? If I need more information or any clarification, are you around in the next couple of days?" They might mention they're off on holiday and you know, I've been doing this seven years, whatever it is now, eight years. Occasionally they'll say, "I won't have my work phone with me. Contact me on this number." Q. I see. MR GRIFFITHSSo it's just a case of: "Can I just check: was that guy 38? Was it in Maryport where it happened?" That kind of thing. Q. Thank you. Touching then on hospitality, probably quite briefly, Ms Pickles, you say in your statement you've never accepted or provided hospitality to or from Cumbria Constabulary? MS PICKLESNo. Me, not in Cumbria. Q. So that's no tea, coffee or biscuits? Nothing like that? MS PICKLESSince I came to Cumbria, I've not really been a journalist out on the road so much. I've been more office bound, so I don't come into regular contact with police officers unless they're sort of in the street, where I live. My hairdresser's husband band is a police officer. I'm sure I've bought him a drink and I'm sure he's bought me one, but it's on that level, you know. Q. Yes. But there is a policy within the newspaper, perhaps a theoretical one, that if you do accept hospitality it needs to be signed off by the editor or, if the editor accepts hospitality, by the chief executive? MS PICKLESThat's right. If Nick spends any money on a police officer, he submits his expenses. I or the editor will authorise those. Everybody knows where money has been spent. Nick's expenditure, I have to say, is very modest. Q. Mr Griffiths, you refer to cups of coffee MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. that might be bought for you if you're attending the police station for a briefing or an interview? MR GRIFFITHSYes. Q. You do refer to, on occasion, being invited to a leaving party or a social occasion where you say you might be bought a pint out of politeness or you buy a pint out of politeness? MR GRIFFITHSYes. Q. You say "leaving parties". What other social occasions? MR GRIFFITHSI mean, just to clarify on this, I mean in the seven years or whatever I've been doing this, I can probably count on one hand the amount of time I've been on these occasions, and someone might be leaving who I know, moving up, retiring. Occasionally the department who I deal with in the morning might have a sort of after works drinks and I'm invited along, pop along for a couple of pints and it's what you do, isn't it? You walk in and you say, "Do you want a pint?" LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThis is entirely social? MR GRIFFITHSYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThis isn't in an effort to sort of MR GRIFFITHSPurely social. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONget some story? MR GRIFFITHSNo, purely social. MS BOONIs work ever discussed at those sort of occasions? MR GRIFFITHSThey might talk about work, but only the way you talk about work with your colleagues, moaning about it, the frustration you get. I'm not there saying, "Give me a list of all the drug busts you're going to do in the next three weeks." Q. Have you ever received information on one of those occasions that you've wanted to print or have printed? MR GRIFFITHSNo, because we don't talk about things like that. Q. Have you, Mr Griffiths, ever had experience of a police officer or member of police staff putting any pressure on you to water down a story or hide any information on the ground that it would be unfavourable to that officer or the organisation? MR GRIFFITHSNo, not that I can think of. There are occasions where you come across information and you then go to the officer who you know is dealing with a particular case and they might say, "For operational reasons, would you please not print this until further" and we'll abide by that because we're not in the business of screwing up police operations. Q. Yes, but not: "Please don't put this because it makes us look bad", that sort of thing? MR GRIFFITHSNo, I've never not that I can remember. I mean, you know, I deal with X amount of people on an average and if we did have that, we would never do that anyway. Q. No. I was asking whether you'd experienced that, rather than MR GRIFFITHSNo. Q. Are you aware of any other reporters having such an experience? MR GRIFFITHSNo. Q. Have you had experience of receiving what might be termed "leaked information", information that an officer or member of police staff would be prohibited from sharing with you? MR GRIFFITHSI don't know about prohibited, because, you know, no one's ever come to me and said, "Here's this, I'm not supposed to give you it." We've had things ahead of things happening. For instance, I mention in my statement about sometimes being given the heads up on certain incidents or ongoing stories where, for instance, you could have had a serious incident series of front-page stories with appeals for information that could put fear of crime out there and then the police can pool the results and they've arrested or charged someone and they're aware that our deadlines are very tight, so they might say, "There's a press release coming out in an hour on this, can you hold off with the presses", as it were, "as long as possible?" But not leaked. You know, not: "I'm giving you this, but you shouldn't be having this." Q. How do you receive those heads up? By what form of communication? MR GRIFFITHSJust a quick phone call. Q. Do you get the impression it's just to you, as a local trusted journalist, or is it circulated more widely? MR GRIFFITHSI don't know. It's not one of the questions I usually ask. Q. I'd like to ask you both about off-the-record communications. Ms Pickles, you state that off-the-record briefings and communications do occur. In what instances have you experienced those? MS PICKLESI think we've had off-the-record guidance, which has been very useful. One example I can think of was when there was a particularly vicious attack on a man on a filling station forecourt by three men, I believe, with baseball bats. Really nasty. He was very, very seriously injured, hospital. For some time it wasn't known whether he would live or die, and the three ran off, escaped. We were given guidance that we shouldn't report this as these three guys running amok in Carlisle and therefore the whole of the city ought to be afraid of them, the inference being that we risked causing an awful lot of fear, perception of fear, when that was not necessary. I think we've been given also guidance on how best to avoid identifying victims of sex crime. This is a small community, as I described, and communities within communities may only have, you know, a couple of streets. Where it happened may only have one teenage girl living there. So we've been given those kind of off-the-record I would also call them heads up, but for a very, very good reason: to inform our reporting, really, so that we can best accurately report what has happened. Q. When you say "off the record", do you mean not for publication? MS PICKLESI do. That's what I mean, yes. Q. Mr Griffiths, I understand from your statement that you've had similar experiences where you've been given information. You give an example of where the police are aware of a quite serious car crash that could prove to be fatal. MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. And you were informed that that might be the case, so that you approach matters more sensitively? MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. You say that you would then take greater care approaching the family because they may have just been informed of a fatality. So that sort of MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. You give the same example as well about not inadvertently identifying victims. You were given some guidance to make sure you didn't? MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. On the question of training I just touch on that very briefly you state you've received on-the-job training on dealings with the police. MR GRIFFITHSYeah. Q. Has this included any guidance on the maintenance of appropriate relationships, where the boundaries lie and that sort of thing? Or perhaps from your evidence it's not been necessary? MR GRIFFITHSYeah, it's never relevant been an issue, to be honest. You just sort of pick it up as you go. No, sorry, that's wrong; you're given training but it's not a formal day-long training of: this is the do's and don'ts. When you're a young reporter, you ask other reporters, you ask your news editor: "What should I do with this? What should I do with that?" and it sort of forms your training as you go along. Q. Returning to Cumbria Constabulary's media operation in response to the shooting in June 2010. It's obviously a very large-scale operation to manage. Do either of you have any comments to make to the force's handling of the media, whether positive or negative? MS PICKLESI thought it was very positive. We didn't want to spend a lot of time harassing victims' families, knocking on doors, looking for the screaming sensational headlines. As I've said before I know I'm repeating myself, it must be boring, but we have to live with these people and we didn't want to cause them any further distress. So we worked very closely with the police liaison team, who were extremely helpful in sourcing photographs, tributes and any information they thought we might need, without us having to go camping on people's door steps or occupying Whitehaven, so that, for all it was a dreadful, dreadful incident, was perversely, I know, an extremely successful police/local media operation. Q. Do you agree with that, Mr Griffiths? MR GRIFFITHSYeah, I do agree with that, yeah. Q. In terms of the future you've both spoken very positively about the present, but Ms Pickles first, do you think any changes do need to be made to I appreciate you don't feel that the relationships that you have need any kind of recalibration, but do you feel that police forces should have any systems for monitoring or auditing relationships between officers and reporters? MS PICKLESI think they already are, as far as they should be. I think the relationships are monitored. They're understood. We each know and understand our role in supplying the public with the information to which it is entitled, and those relationships are founded on that understanding and that knowledge. I don't believe it is broken. Frankly, I don't see what purpose can be served by a police officer filling in a form every time he speaks to a journalist or she speaks to a journalist. And I can't I know it's I agree it's healthy to review all relationships in this area from time to time. It has to be healthy and it's good to look at it and flush out the bad apples, but you know, there aren't very many of those and I don't know why the rogue miscreants weren't just dealt with existing law and without having to haul the rest of the industry over the coals for it. I think the relationship we have works well. It's built on trust, it's built on respect and it is professional. I would like to see a better-staffed press office, more keenly conversant with media deadlines that are not just print deadlines but online deadlines. I mean, every even as small as that office is, a 24-hour operation now. Two people in a press office for Cumbria Constabulary is simply not enough. I agree with the principle of press offices because I think they're extremely helpful and when they're working well, are just invaluable, but it ain't big enough, and that's the only change I would make, to be absolutely honest with you. I don't think there's any good reason to drive a wedge between local media and local police officers. Q. Mr Griffiths, do you have anything to add? MR GRIFFITHSI'd echo that again. From a purely practical point of view, since I'm the one having to stand up stories in the morning, I'd just say extra red tape, another form to fill out, would, like Anne said, just put another barrier up. I think more often than not, officers, if they're worried about having to fill out another form, just wouldn't take your call. Most of the time those calls are just to sort of clarify incidents, inform the reporting as much as possible. Q. What if there's no form to fill out, if it's just a question of the officer recording time, date, who they've spoken to, the fact of the contact in a pocket notebook? MR GRIFFITHSWell, if it's that, I don't think it's a massive problem, but I just think that I think any more sort of anything more to fill out just means more work for officers and they wouldn't want to undertake that extra work. Q. Is there anything else either of you would like to add? MS PICKLESJust that whether it's a form or a tick box or whatever, sticking a red star on a piece of paper, it is distancing two people, two organisations, who should be working closely together to the same end, and I don't believe that can be good in a community such as ours. MS BOONThank you. Those are my questions. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONOf course MR GRIFFITHSSorry, can I just clarify something from before? When you asked that question about do I ever ask officers whether to keep it just to myself or to MS BOONYes. A. It's not that I don't want it kept to myself, because obviously my job's to get stories for the newspaper. It's just my own personal style is not to ask that, because I often find that if you flag it up, if it's something that might be of interest to other media, it puts an idea in their head to do it. I just wanted to clarify that in case I was misunderstood. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONMs Pickles, of course, we're not just thinking about the relationship between the Cumbria police and the journalists in the newspaper for which you work. MS PICKLESNo. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONI readily recognise your observation that we have to live with the people who we're serving, so do I get the picture that you develop relationships with your community I've heard before that local newspapers develop relationships with the communities which they serve, and with the people within those communities. Then there's a big story, and along come the national press, and they trample over everybody's garden, literally and metaphorically. MS PICKLESYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThey grab what they can, then the next day they've gone and leave you to replant the flowers. MS PICKLESMm-hm, that's exactly right. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONAnd as a result, damage the relationship which you nurture and have to build up again? MS PICKLESThey do have to be build up again. They do, and every time there's another for want of another word another fuss about this type of behaviour, we get the backlash. So a straightforward court report will perhaps, as an example and it's not a fictitious one. This is real. Some guy's gone down for his crime and his mother rings the news desk and says, "He didn't mean to beat him up. He's a good lad, really, my son, and I know what you people are like because I've read what's happening with journalists." So we've had: "I've been watching the Leveson Inquiry. I know how you people work." Now, the stain from what has happened to trigger this Inquiry and a number of reports tends to spread across all sections of the media. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONTherefore it's rather important, isn't it, to make sure that the context is described so that people can understand precisely what we're addressing, but if I could take your own two examples, the Yorkshire Ripper was when? How many years ago? I hate to ask you. MS PICKLES18? A long time ago. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONYes, it was, a very long time ago, and yet you said in relation to the recent case in Cumbria to do with Mr Bird, you saw similar sorts of behaviour. MS PICKLESWell LORD JUSTICE LEVESONSo here we are, in 20, nearly 30 years. It's the same thing. Do you think that's healthy? MS PICKLESThat isn't healthy. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONAnd appropriate? MS PICKLESThat isn't healthy or appropriate. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONIt so happens I agree with you. So one has to find a way do you agree? of trying to cope with the excesses while preserving what is not merely valuable but critical for local communities. You are the ones that report the local football matches, you're the ones that go into the local schools, you're the ones that report on the courts, the health authorities, the local authorities. It's critical that you're able to do it. MS PICKLESAbsolutely necessary. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONI didn't think you'd disagree with that. MS PICKLESNo. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONSo would you agree the trick is going to be to find a way is that allows you to do what you do well, and to develop the relationship that works well for your community, while at the same time preventing that which does not work within the public interest? MS PICKLESThat is my sincere hope for the outcome of this Inquiry. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONWell, it's my hope as well, so we can agree on that. MS PICKLESOkay. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONBut the question then arises how you do it. I'm not suggesting that either you or the police or anybody should fill out a great form just because your reporter wants to know a bit of news, wants to speak to the community officer that deals with vandalism on that estate or that sort of thing. But if you're working within a very small environment, it's probably easier to keep an eye on what everybody's doing. MS PICKLESIsh. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONIf you're working in a very large environment, it's not merely not easy; it's probably absolutely impossible. MS PICKLESMm-hm. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONSo I want to know whether you can help me and it may be you can't, but I want to give you the opportunity of devising a mechanism which encourages all that is good that you've spoken of: openness and transparency of the police to the press and a positive relationship dependent upon trust and mutual co-operation for the benefit of the community. It does all that MS PICKLESRight. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONbut at the same time does not simply generate a complete free-for-all where nobody knows really what's going on and can therefore exercise any measure of control. That's the reason behind suggesting and it's only a suggestion, I'm not there, I'm listening and thinking that strategic issues should be dealt with by an appropriate ranked officer. MS PICKLESMm-hm. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONAnd local issues by anybody who has the authority to deal with them. By that, I mean the knowledge so they're not just talking off the top of their heads; they know what they're talking about, and the fact that that is operating is demonstrable in some way. That's what I'm trying to get to. MS PICKLESYes. There's responsibility too, though, for closer control in newsrooms and in news organisations on how journalists approach those relationships and how they work. I think we've found ourselves here through an absence of perhaps control, perhaps concern, perhaps belief in the faith that a newspaper owes not only the police and politicians and the system and democracy, but its readers. You know, it's quite clear we're in a bad place now in some sections of the media, but I still think a lot of that, you know, the media has to blame itself for and take responsibility for. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONI think you're probably absolutely right. I say "probably" because I have to keep an open mind to the very end. You're right in one sense: the rogue miscreants could have been hauled over the coals. But this isn't just criminality. MS PICKLESIt's culture. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONWell, that's the question. MS PICKLESYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONIt's actually not entirely straightforward MS PICKLESNo. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONto get people to address those issues within a mindset that is either: "We're doing everything right maybe others are not, but we are", or: "Our readers know best, and if our readers don't like the paper they won't buy it", which might justify anything. MS PICKLESYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONIf there's anything else you would like to offer on this topic, I'd be interested, but I understand your point and I absolutely understand that it is of critical importance to celebrate the enormous contribution that regional and local journalists make to their communities and not to forget that when one deals with the other side of the coin. MS PICKLESYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONI can only say to those who telephone your office and say, "Well, we know what you're like" that it's far more nuanced than that. MS PICKLESIt is. Thank you. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThank you. Thank you both very much. MS BOONSir, would you like to take a short break before the next witnesses or shall I call LORD JUSTICE LEVESONAre they coming together? MS BOONThey are, yes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONVery good. I think Mr Mackey is going to get rather more, because he has other duties now, so I warn him. All right. Five minutes. (2.57 pm) (A short break) (3.06 pm) MS BOONSir, the next witnesses are Mr Mackey and Ms Shearer. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThank you. MR CRAIG THOMAS MACKEY (sworn) MS GILLIAN SHEARER (sworn) Questions by MS BOON MS BOONMr Mackey, first of all. Please give your full name. MR MACKEYCraig Thomas Mackey. Q. You've provided a witness statement to the Inquiry dated 13 February 2012? MR MACKEYYes, that's correct. Q. Do you confirm the contents of that statement are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? MR MACKEYYes, they are. Q. Is this your formal evidence to the Inquiry? MR MACKEYYes, it is. Q. You are now Deputy Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Service? MR MACKEYYes, that's correct. Q. You've served with the police for over 27 years. Between September 2007 and January 2012, you were Chief Constable of Cumbria Constabulary? MR MACKEYYes, that's correct. Q. And you've previously served with Wiltshire, Gloucestershire and also the HMIC? MR MACKEYYes, that's correct. Q. Ms Shearer, please give your full name? MS SHEARERGillian Shearer. Q. You've also provided a witness statement, haven't you, that's dated 28 February 2012? MS SHEARERYes, that's correct. Q. Do you confirm the contents of that witness statement are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? MS SHEARERYes, that's correct. Q. Is that your formal evidence to the Inquiry? MS SHEARERYes, it is. Q. You've been head of marketing and communications for Cumbria Constabulary since 2005? MS SHEARERThat's correct. Q. Prior to that, you were a marketing and communications manager for a manufacturing company? MS SHEARERYes. Q. And before that, a regional public relations officer for the National Farmer's Union? MS SHEARERYes. Q. Ms Shearer, how many staff work for the press office? Is it just two now, two press officers, we've heard? MS SHEARERYes, two at the second, although our establishment, when we are fully staffed, is three in the press office, but in total my three is eight and what we do is build in resilience through other members of the team, so that they can support the press office when we need. Q. What proportion of staff that support you have a background in the media? MS SHEARERAt this moment in time, none, although when we originally formed the press office in 2006, two out of the three press officers had experience as being journalists. Q. Mr Mackey, dealing with their culture of relations with the media, your belief is that Cumbria Constabulary so obviously speaking about your tenure of Chief Constable of Cumbria had in general, or has, a positive relationship with the media but a better relationship with the local media than the national media. Is that still your view? MR MACKEYYes, that would be correct. Day-to-day contact was predominantly with the local media and regional journalists. Cumbria is quite unique in terms of its size and scale and is covered by a number of television regions. So regional journalists, regional news were the predominant people we worked with. Q. So is that a better relationship with the local media just because there's more contact, so a better chance to build up a better relationship, or is there something else at work? MR MACKEY(a) They're probably more consistent, so you do build up a relationship and understanding, but also predominantly a community, from most of the work we've done, who took their views from the local media. So local newspapers, Radio Cumbria, BBC Look North, Border Television, that's where people went for their news on what was going on in the county. Q. Can I take you to paragraph 51 of your statement. That's our page 02286. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONWhich statement? Whose? MS BOONSorry, Mr Mackey: "The constabulary is very clear that its aim is to manage the media. This is able to happen because the press office is very clear in its values of working with the media and treating the media in a fair and equal way. For example, there are no off-the-record discussions except for background information ahead of complex court cases, there are no exclusives, there is no treating national and local journalists differently." First of all, you say there are no off-the-record discussions, but we heard members of the press say that there are off-the-record discussions. How can we account for that difference? MR MACKEYI think it comes to this heart of what is "off the record". It's different with different parts of the media, and different media outlets will give you a different interpretation of what that means. I prefer and always work with "attributable" and "non-attributable". Everything we said to the media is absolutely attributable to an individual who said it. Some of it would be the context around things that were going on, so I think there was referred to some of the complex issues around the budget. Very clear that was always on the record, but expecting the media to understand a document which was probably 30 or 40 pages thick on what was the effect of the comprehensive spending review on a force, they would expect some context, some understanding around it. That was on the record. Q. Was there anything in the evidence of Ms Pickles and Mr Griffiths that surprised you when you heard what information was given off the record? MR MACKEYNo, didn't surprise me. I didn't know the particular circumstances of the incident in Carlisle with the attack, but I think that's still a live case. But apart from that, no. Q. In fact, Ms Shearer, the policy which we'll come to says that police officers are not to have off-the-record discussions. Was there anything in the evidence you heard this afternoon which makes you think police officers are contravening this policy? MS SHEARERAbsolutely not. I think it comes back to the terminology, and the use of "off the record". I think Ms Pickles picked it up when she talked about "off-the-record guidance" and I think there is a blur around the terminology. Q. Mr Mackey, a reading of your paragraph 51 is that off-the-record discussionss are inconsistent with treating journalists equally. Is that your view? Do you have concerns about not-for-publication? MR MACKEYI do have concerns about that, and I think the experience of the events in June tended to show how difficult the whole notion of going off the record is now. When you're faced with a room larger than this with 150 journalists there, it's very hard to say, "We're going to go off the record with you three, and the rest of you stay over there." Also, I think the immediacy and while I understand the focus on the printed media, the reality is now, as you're doing a news conference or a briefing, people are tweeting these issues live, and the notion that somehow you can take people to one side and say, "Here's a different way of looking at it" is problematic in practice, let alone in principle. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONDoes that mean it's difficult to say to this large room: "Look, I will say something, but only to provide you with context so that you don't go down the wrong track"? MR MACKEYIn that environment, sir, that would be incredibly difficult. It was also the first time I'd experienced what I would say would probably described as citizen journalists, so students standing in the queue behind national news reporters to do an interview with you. It's very difficult to say, "Actually, what we're going to do with something completely different." So throughout that incident, we kept on the record. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThat might actually make your job rather more difficult. MR MACKEYIt does in some respects, yes, sir. MS BOONMs Shearer, you make the point in your statement that you would need a great deal of convincing before you form the view that off-the-record briefings were a good thing. Is there anything you want to add to what Mr Mackey said or what you've said about off-the-record briefings before I move on? MS SHEARERNo. I think I would expect the justification to be incredibly significant and the sort of times that I would perceive that to be is around counter-terrorism and at that sort of level. That's the time when you should be considering off the record. Everything else should be on the record, if you are going to say it. Q. Mr Mackey, again in your statement, paragraph 54, page 02287: "I believe generally that Cumbria Constabulary's relationship with the media is managed and appropriate as a result of the close management and professionalism of our press office." One reading of that paragraph is that the constabulary is trying to tightly control the media. Is that a fair reading? MR MACKEYNo. I don't think that's a fair reading in terms of that. It is around managing those long-term relationships for us. You know, actually as the Chief Constable with a strategic management team of the organisation, this is not something I could do on a daily basis, and that's very much where having a professional heading the press office, having a press team around you, adds that advantage in terms of the ability to (a) spot things coming up, also by sitting around the strategic management group of the organisation, the chief officer group in that particular force, to actually say: "You know what: the issue you're debating today has a press line. Have we thought about how we're going to give this to the press and what we're going to do?" So it adds that sort of discipline at that level of the organisation. Q. Moving on to the contact that both of you have with the media. Mr Mackey, you had, you say, high levels of media contact, which comprised interviews and briefings. All of your contact was through the press office; is that right? MR MACKEYYes, all my contact through the press office. If I may give you a typical example: Police Authority meetings, monthly, agendas would go out with backing papers, probably ten days before, the press office would send out something to all the local media contacts, saying, "Cumbria Police Authority is meeting on this day at this time. It's going to consider the following papers. The Chief Constable is available for interviews or another appropriate member of the management team." And the press office would then programme those interviews in, my secretary or PA would literally get a list and we'd work through ringing them or, if they were TV, doing interviews outside or in the office, and that's how we manage them. Q. Does your office receive direct approaches? MR MACKEYVery occasionally direct approaches, but more predominantly, they came as a result of either something we were putting out or a particular incident breaking or coming, at which point it's a fairly small building, the media team are one end of a long corridor, the chief officer team are the other end of the long corridor, and it wasn't uncommon to see Gill or one of her team running along saying, "There's something breaking", and the approach we took was very much, if it was something of strategic significance or a critical incident for the force, that either a chief officer or a chief superintendent would take the lead. Q. On the question of hospitality, Ms Pickles has described the constabulary as less than generous in terms of hospitality. Has that been your experience? MR MACKEYI wouldn't describe us as "less than generous", but there's not a wide culture of hospitality. That's very much part of the community and where we were. It wasn't the practice. I think I met the editor of the News Group on two occasions over working lunches. That would be more the normal. Q. Sorry to interrupt you. I think on one occasion, it's declared in the hospitality register a lunch with the local newspaper editor. That was a Mr Hodgkinson; is that right? MR MACKEYThat's correct, yes. Q. He was the editor-in-chief of Cumberland News. That was also with you, Ms Shearer? MS SHEARERThat's right. Q. That was a lunch. Then there was another dinner or lunch in March 2010? MR MACKEYYes. One is in one register because it was paid for by the newspaper. The other one we paid for. Q. What were the purposes of those? MR MACKEYJust about promoting relationships with the local media. Cumberland News Group, the north and west of the county most of the media are part of the Cumberland News Group and it was really about understanding where we were. It also gave us useful feedback, particularly me, on how we worked, how we were perceived as an organisation, so some of those problems that are inevitable with a small team around things like, you know, not enough cover at weekends and into the small hours. It's useful to hear that directly from the editor in terms of these are the challenges we face. Q. Beyond those lunches, you refer in your statement to hosting an annual editors' dinner or editors' lunch in December between 2007 and 2009. What was the purpose of those lunches? Is is that similar to what you've described? MR MACKEYIt was similar. That was bringing news groups from across the county. We found that was not long after I arrived as chief they actually became less and less well attended. So we stopped those from being an annual thing because in the reality, with a county that's nearly 70 miles end to end, it's an awful lot to ask the news editor from a paper in Barrow that's two hours away to come up and have sandwiches with you for half an hour. Q. Ms Shearer, the only hospitality you accepted was the lunch in 2007. The hospitality you provided, what was that? MS SHEARERThat was, again, with Mr Mackey, having one lunch and then I subsequently had a lunch with a reporter and I also accompanied our DCC for a lunch as well. Q. As for the lunch the first lunch you refer to, not the one with the DCC you refer in your statement to wanting to meet in a neutral location so that you could resolve tensions. MS SHEARERThat's correct. Q. So there was a business purpose behind that? MS SHEARERAbsolutely. Q. Mr Mackey, do you have any views on the ethics generally of hospitality between the police and the media, whether accepted or provided? MR MACKEYAs a general purpose, I think it's I would use the I think someone's referred to it previously as the blush test in terms of it ought to be proportionate, appropriate. It ought to be the sort of thing that when you write it in the hospitality register and it appears on the force Internet, you're entirely comfortable in terms of what you've done and why you've done it, and be very clear that there is a professional reason and basis on why you're accepting hospitality. It's not a nice to do. Q. Just testing how far that goes, would you have concerns if you heard that junior officers were meeting members of the media in bars regularly for drinks? MR MACKEYI would, unless they actually knew the individual in a social environment, and I would be more concerned if it was consistently the same person. Q. Would the same apply to meeting members of the media for meals in restaurants? MR MACKEYFor me, it's about proportion and balance. It might be entirely appropriate over a working lunch to have a sandwich, a pizza or a cup of coffee, but actually outside the working day in other environments, you begin to get to the point where you have to question (a) your own values, but also why are you doing it? Why are you there? Q. Mr Mackey, during your police career, have you become aware of senior officers accepting what you've considered excessive hospitality from the press? MR MACKEYNot from the media per se in my roles where I've worked. Prodominantly most of the places I've worked have been relationships with local media. The only time the issues have changed is usually when there's been a significant major issue. In most of the forces I've worked in, there's been a significant major issue at some point during my tenure and national media and international media have arrived and been part of that. But I've not seen anything that's immediately come to mind that I thought that's wrong. Q. So you've not had concerns in the past about senior officers, fellow senior officers, thinking: "I perceive that they're getting too close, that relationship they have with that newspaper and I'm uncomfortable with it"? You haven't had that experience? MR MACKEYNo, not in terms of where I have worked. It's a much more besign local media environment in most of the places I've worked to date. Q. Do you have any relationships with crime reporters that you might call friendships? MR MACKEYNo, not currently. Q. Ms Shearer, do you? MS SHEARERNo. Q. Is it something that you've actively avoided, Ms Shearer, or it's not just happened? MS SHEARERNo, I haven't actively I just don't think it's happened, no. Q. Mr Mackey, you say "not currently". Does that mean in the past MR MACKEYNo, I it's not inconceivable that you can form a friendship with an individual going forward, but I think that's where you have to put personal and professional into very different camps in terms of doing it. I think in the current environment in that I was working in in Cumbria, the reality was I think Mr Griffiths was probably the only dedicated crime reporter per se in the county. So no, not had those sorts of personal relationships with journalists. Q. Ms Shearer, direct contact between police officers and members of the press isn't something that concerns you? MS SHEARERNo, as long as there is a business-justifiable reason of why the officers are talking to the press, then that's fully acceptable. Q. Do you expect all communication to go through you first? MS SHEARERNo, I think there's a real difference between what's strategic communication and what's sort of general communication. Strategic communication, as we talked about and Mr Mackey's explained, that would be through press office and certainly for chief officers, I would look after that. But certainly at a lower level in regard to about crime prevention, witness appeals, we would expect and we would actually encourage our officers to be proactive and to talk to the media and use the media. The media are a really valuable tool for us, particularly in Cumbria, for getting our messages out and we would encourage them and trust them to talk to the media. Q. If I can take you to paragraph 10.1 of your statement, Ms Shearer. That's page 09687, picking up on your use of the phrase "business need". You were asked the question: "Are contacts with the media restricted to certain staff or are all personnel within Cumbria Constabulary able to deal with the media?" You say: "It depends on the type of contact from the media. Staff are encouraged to respond to the media if that is part of their job. For instance, we would expect an officer to speak to the media if they put out an appeal for witnesses and the media required further information or an update. If there wasn't an operational or business need, we wouldn't expect staff to talk to the media." Might criticism of this approach be that it appears defensive and inward-looking, that the officer only is to engage with the media if there's a business need? How does that sit with the expectation that the police should engage with criticism, admit mistakes? MS SHEARERI think police officers if there is a mistake and we need to deal with it, that's the way that the officers should deal with it, and it depends on what scale within the organisation. So if something happens operationally that's difficult, you would expect the officer to deal with it, and it's about having that empowerment at that level, and on the other end of the scale, it's about me being able to or, as head of coms, being able to deal with it and then brief the chief officers. So it's about having an understanding and it's about ensuring that if you are not involved with something, that you and the person dealing with something so a crime happens. The best person to talk about it is that officer, and it's about making sure that people understand that the officer should talk about it and absolutely is entrusted and empowered to do so, but you shouldn't be talking about it if it effectively isn't your crime, as such. Q. That's what you mean when you're referring to business operational needs? MS SHEARERThat's right. Q. That perhaps takes us on to the force policies. I just take you to a couple of passages. At tab 19 of the bundle, there's the Police Authority and constabulary anti-fraud and corruption procedure. This is a policy dated 2009. Has it been updated, can either of you say, or is this the version that was in force then? MR MACKEYI think this is the version that was in force then. Q. Section 10 of on that policy, internal numbering 9, our reference 02855, this deals with offers and acceptance of hospitality: "It is essential, when dealing with organisations or individuals likely to benefit from the goodwill of the authority or existing potential contractors, that you're never placed in a position of owing favours. Your conduct does not allow for any suspicion that you could be unfairly favouring any particular third party over others. Whilst a working lunch is often an acceptable part of normal working relations, the following should be avoided: hospitality received which constitutes more of a social function; an excess of hospitality, both in terms of frequency or lavish meals; hospitality which could give rise to suspicions of favour. If there is any doubt as to whether an invitation should be accepted, your line manager/supervisor should be consulted." This appears to be dealing with contracts and procurement, but is this policy intended to apply across the board or have I missed a section that deals with that? MR MACKEYNo, you've not missed a section. It's also specifically and it's covered in the back in terms of the register of interests forms it's very much about making sure that the Police Authority contractual relationships and other relationships are clearly above board in terms of where we that's the general reprint of the hospitality policy. Q. There's no other specific guidance to police officers about accepting hospitality in force policy at present? MR MACKEYNo, it's dealt with as part of training. I refer to in my statement we refer to a process of training called PASS, which we've just brought in, which is around sorry, Cumbria have just brought in, which is around being very clear with people and given the size and scale of the organisation, you can be about the risks are that posed by people you know and associate with, areas to which you have access, then the systems to which you have access, but also, again, being very clear about the standards that are expected of you, whether you're a member of police staff or a police officer, and that's dealt with by an input from a chief officer or a commander, when people join the organisation. Q. The media management procedures media policy, January 2010. That's at tab 21. The first section, "Media management procedures", 1.0, internal page 3 of 29 or our 02876. Highlighting a few of the key parts of that policy, as it appears. 1.2: "Proactive use of the media and linking in with the constabulary's marketing activities is a great way to inform the communities we serve and help them to understand what we do and why. Being proactive ensures we are able to shout about our successes and dispel rumour and speculation when things go wrong, so helping to maintain and improve public confidence. "There is no hard and fast rule on who should speak to the media but the best person is often the one who knows the most about what they're talking about, is comfortable speaking to the media and doesn't stray beyond the immediate subject. Further tips on conducting a media interview can be found in media management procedures section 7. "We should only provide the media with factual information about incidents, investigations or issues we are directly involved in, and only after the permission from the SIO [senior investigating officer] or OIC [officer in the case]." So you're envisaging there that an officer would speak to the officer in charge of the investigation before speaking to the media? MS SHEARERYes. Q. Is that something that happens or is it just something that's written in the policy? MS SHEARERNo, that is what happens. Quite often and again, it depends on the range of the incident you'll have your SIO, and a part of that is supported by a media strategy and in there is identified a media spokesperson, and normally, that is the senior investigating officer, although there will be some incidents where it's delegated. Q. Paragraph 1.5: "Anyone who provides information to the media should update press office LORD JUSTICE LEVESONWe'd just better slow down a bit. We're going a bit quickly. MS BOON"Anyone who provides information to the media should update press office as to their actions and what's been released wherever possible." I asked you before whether you would expect every officer to contact you after contact with the media. This would suggest that they should. Is that a tolerated practice? MS SHEARERNo, not at all. I think you're taking the it's very much at the letter there. Actually, in practice, that isn't what happens. Everybody understands if they're speaking to the media, if it's a serious incident, then yes, it does come back through press office, but low level, they're fully empowered to do it, and I think, yes, on reading that paragraph, it does sound slightly draconian, but that isn't what happens in practice. Q. Over the page, one more paragraph that I wanted to take you to. 1.9: "We expect all officers and staff to maintain professionalism, both inside and outside work. There's a need for us to maintain professional working relationships with the media. However, when officers or staff do enter into personal relationships with anyone who is part of a media organisation, it is expected that work matters are not discussed outside work. Off the record comments are not permitted. The constabulary will not tolerate any police officer, police staff and special constable who improperly discloses information or intelligence (either deliberately or recklessly) to the media." So there's the prohibition that I referred to before on off-the-record comments. Do you define or is it part of training to explain to officers what it is they can't do? The reason I ask is there is this misunderstanding about what "off the record" actually means. Are you clear that officers understand that? MS SHEARERThere is training in place. All officers and also police staff because what we have to remember, particularly for us, our PCSOs, are an integral part of talking to the media. So all officers and staff do receive media training when they come in, and that's sort of to set the context, and that's supported right the way through. We do media training right the way through the organisation up to chief officer level. So that gives everybody a level platform of what is expected for them. Also, in light of obviously this Inquiry, the Filkin report and the HMIC, we will be looking back at the policy and having a look and actually clearing up some of the ambiguity around "off the record" and things like that. That's one of my actions, after I leave here today, to do. Q. Mr Mackey, you said that the constabulary has invested in a significant media training policy for all officers, including the chief officer's team. Will that comprise input on how to maintain appropriate relationships? MR MACKEYI don't remember, honestly, in terms of that in terms of the level of detail around that, but the training was much more about working with the media, how to work with the media, and it went all the way through to Cumbria, as part of the selection for chief officers, used media interviews as part of the selection process. So given the relatively small size of the organisation and the limited spans of command that were there, everyone was involved in it. Q. Ms Shearer, when you're dealing with the training in your witness statement, you say as part of the induction process, you speak to members of your staff. So you give guidance as to what's appropriate contact, and you define "appropriate contact" as having a business reason to speak to the media about an incident in line with the ACPO communication advistory group guidelines and your own media management policy. That's how you're focusing the mind of your staff, that they have that as a line in their mind to follow? MS SHEARERYes. Q. I'd like to now ask you about the media operation that followed the tragic shootings in June 2010. Ms Shearer, you were appointed media coordinator and strategic lead for the media and communications response to the emergency. We have a statement from Mr Iain Goulding, who was the senior investigating officer, whose statement will be read in today. He said that all police contact and communications with the media were directed and controlled by your team. What in practice did this involve for you? MS SHEARERIt involved an immense number of calls coming into our press office. Our press office normally takes between 30 and 50 calls on a daily basis. I think it was somewhere in the region of 300 to 500, depending on the day, during that time. We had to bring in extra staff to be able to do it and it's something that we practice for during exercise and we regularly test out. So we're bringing other staff from the organisation to support our press office. But it is incredibly difficult to deal with that number of calls coming in, just in regard to the scale and the volume, when you do have a small press office. Q. We've heard from Ms Pickles about a request from the Crime Reporters Association. Is that something you can help the Inquiry with? MS SHEARERYes, it is. Q. Did you receive that request yourself? MS SHEARERThe request originally came in from one of my press offices who was posted out on the second day, and we discussed it and they returned to the Crime Reporters Association to say no, we weren't going to engage with them in an off-the-record discussions. That came back in on the third day, and it came back into myself there. I think it goes back slightly during 2009. During the floodings in West Cumbria, which again was a major incident, Ms Pickles' editor at the end, Neil Hodgkinson, was very vocal and very critical of us, saying that we gave preference to the national media. We didn't, and that was felt quite difficult for my team, because we really did not. When I received the request from the Crime Reporters Association, we took an informed view in regard to it and I also spoke to Mr Mackey about what our decision was going to be. What I did do we'd already told the Crime Reporters Association no is go back to the editor and basically say, "We're not going to do this, but if we were going to consider doing it, would you want to be part of it?" and to which he said, "Absolutely. We should not be left out. If you are speaking to the nationals on the off-the-record basis which we don't do anyway, he would want to be part of it. Q. Ms Pickles then referred to a subsequent meeting about how the inquests would play out, I think, and Lord Justice Leveson asked whether that was a briefing that was given to members of the national media. Can you help with that? MS SHEARERYes, I can. I think you have to understand in Cumbria the local media has a really unique role. They do a lot of reporting around crime, and actually the people of Cumbria read their newspapers and believe the newspapers. It was felt we were aware that a number of the families in the inquest that some of the information going into the public domain was the first time it had been in the public domain and they were very uncomfortable around it, and we took the decision because really we felt the only newspapers that would cover it in that detail and prove to be right was the local papers, and because of that basis, we went and we spoke to them to let them know some the concerns that the families had told us through our family liaison officers. We also spoke to them in regard to it was the first time we'd had an inquest of that size in the county to brief them in regard to what we were doing around supporting them, what information would be released at what stage. So it was just a background information, but basically on behalf of the families, about the importance of their reporting and the impact that it had on the community. Q. You set out in your statement that the main issues you encountered related to what you describe as immense pressure that the families of the victims experienced from reporters. Could you talk us through those issues and the actions that you took to address the difficulties? MS SHEARERAbsolutely. The families were just completely and utterly overwhelmed in regard to the media contact. Some of the media contact had happened before we had been able to inform them, so we, through our family liaison officers, supported the families. It was an immensely difficult time for them. Q. When you refer to the media LORD JUSTICE LEVESONHang on, can I understand that? Some people were being approached by the press before they'd been told by the police that their next of kin had been involved? MS SHEARERYes, that's correct. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONDid you ever get to the bottom of how that was, how that came to be? MS SHEARERThe really difficult thing for us, through all of this in regard to trying to represent the families and I think if you put yourself in that position when they're contacted by a member of the media whilst for us it might seem logical to ask them what organisation they're from and what their name is, the families just did not have that, so when we spoke to the families, they would sort of say "a member of the press", but they weren't able to identify to us who that member was. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONNo, I wasn't so much trying to identify which member of the press it was. I'm just wondering how it all happened in the first place. MS SHEAREROh right. MR MACKEYIf I may assist, sir, some of it was around this wasn't the first critical incident that had happened in that part of the county and there was actually a funeral that day that this happened. So the national media were already there. So rolling news programmes are taking footage of a scene, particularly one of the first scenes outside the taxi rank, where there is a body covered and members of the family could identify who it was from that. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONOh, I see. MR MACKEYSo these are very small communities where if you say and I won't to spare the families, some of the locations but some of the small villages, there aren't many people in them and when two people have been killed in that village, it gets out very, very quickly, goes around, and some of the families I know, from the feedback they gave, found that particularly harrowing and still talk about that. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONYes, I can understand that. MS BOONWere there notable differences between the behaviour of the national media on the one hand and the local media on the other? MS SHEARERYes, there was. The local media you will see a number of occasions that we had to put out instructions on all the media. The local media adhered to those, whereas the national media didn't. Q. What about, from your perspective, dealing with the national media? How did you find them? MS SHEARERI think we found at times and particularly my team found them very aggressive towards us. They found them very difficult to please, and it means that, you know, once you came back to them with some answers, that wasn't sufficient, there were other answers, and at times, when they were dealing with them at press conferences, they found that they were put into very difficult situations where they had 20 journalists sort of shouting and requesting at them, and they did find that difficult. Q. You referred in an earlier answer to instructions to the press. I think one of them might be I might be able to take you to it. Tab 24, three pages in. Page 09737. Do you have that? It's entitled "Press note issued at 1.48 pm". There's a paragraph headed: "Impact on the families. We've had a number of complaints from grieving families that they're feeling harassed by the press, who are positioning themselves outside their homes. I would urge all reporters and camera operators to respect the families' wishes for privacy at this very difficult time. Please be aware that the matter has also been raised with the Press Complaints Commission." That's the afternoon of the day after the shootings? MS SHEARERThat's right. Q. First of all, you're responding to complaints from the families. Was this one of the instructions to which you were referring before? MS SHEARERYes. Q. Was this instruction honoured by members of the press? MS SHEARERNo, it wasn't. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONWhat response did you get from the Press Complaints Commission? MS SHEARERAt that time, no response. The Press Complaints Commission were in contact with us, and the Press Complaints Commission were asking us that we ask people to ring them with issues LORD JUSTICE LEVESONWho? Who should be ringing the PCC with issues? MS SHEARERThe families. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThe families? MS SHEARERAnd again, that was a very difficult instruction when you're asking family members at that time and again, it goes back to LORD JUSTICE LEVESONIs this evidenced? Do you have any paper about this? Did you get a letter or anything from the PCC? MS SHEARERNo; emails. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONYou have some emails from the PCC to that effect? MS SHEARERYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONCould you do me the courtesy of sending the Inquiry copies? MS SHEARERYes, of course. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThank you. MS BOONI asked you whether members of the press honoured that particular instruction and you said yes. Was that all of the press or certain sections, certain titles? MS SHEARERAgain, it was a split between local and nationals. The locals did honour it and the nationals from our understanding, because, forgive me, you're working on anecdotal evidence from the families didn't, and particularly our families recognised the television crews. The majority of them do have signage on their vans and they were able to tell us from that the crews that were still filming them, going in and out LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThat's television? MS SHEARERYes, it is. It was a mixture. I use television because it was easy to identify them, but it didn't matter whether it was television or print newspapers. They still remained outside the properties. MS BOONIn fact, there were other instructions in these press notices which I won't ask to be displayed because they contain the names of the individuals and they may not want the publicity again, but there were instructions LORD JUSTICE LEVESONTell me the page. MS BOONYes. Tab 24, sir, page 09756. LORD JUSTICE LEVESON09756. MS BOONYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThese are delightfully not in order. MS BOONI'm afraid not. It does make things more difficult, sir. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONWhat's the point of numbering these documents if you're not going to put them in the right order? MS BOONSir, it's the third page from the back of tab 24. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONI see. All right. MS BOONIt's the bottom operational note from Cumbria police press office. The paragraph below, sir: "The families of LORD JUSTICE LEVESONYes. It names four people most have provided photographs and are urging all media to use these particular photographs instead of any others they may have acquired from other sources. MS BOONYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONHow did they get these? Do we know? MS SHEARERWe don't know how they got the original photos that they were running with. The families hadn't released them. The families came to us with the photos that they wanted their nearest and dearest to be remembered by, and we had already circulated them, and that wasn't being and that causes incredible difficulties for upset for the families, hence we reissued. MS BOONYes, the following day you make the same request. MS SHEARERThat's right. Q. After you asked the second time, were the families' wishes honoured? MS SHEARERNo. Some were, but there were still some instances where no, it wasn't, and in actual fact, my team then took to ring those individuals, newspapers and journalists, to ask them please to use the correct photos. Q. Did that help? MS SHEARERIt did help, yes, it did. Q. Were there any other instances like that, where, during that operation, you asked the press not to do something and they didn't honour the wishes of the family or grieving relatives? MS SHEARERI can't remember. It was very difficult and that the families were forced into the public eye through no choice of their own. Q. Mr Mackey, you gave a briefing to the press the following day? MR MACKEYYes, that's correct. Q. Is there anything that you want to add to your experience of the local media or the national media during this operation? MR MACKEYI think a number of things, if I may. Q. Yes. MR MACKEYFirst of all, it's an understanding and appreciation of the scale of the media that arrive nowadays in relation to an incident of this magnitude and this complexity, and the challenges that brings. But I think, as Gill's covered, it's also the overwhelming feelings of the local community and the families is one of anger and dismay at the way they were perceived, they were treated, and at the long-term presence of the media during this incident. I think if I could sort of characterise the media involvement in a cycle around this. During the stage when this incident was live, when Derek Bird was on his rampage across West Cumbria, we used the media a lot and you'll see the warning and informing notices going out, asking people to stay away, and the local media and many of the national media were very good in terms of that. It was then incredibly difficult for the families and communities of West Cumbria, once the incident was resolved, and we had the whole gambit of approaches to individuals, very, very widespread talk about money being available for certain photographs in the community, and all the challenges that that brought with a community that was in a state of shock and grief. It's fair to say that by the time we got through to the inquest, the vast majority of the media, both national and local, once they actually heard the scale of what had gone on and heard the some of the details, behaved with great respect during that process, and I would highlight the approach of the media differently during the first anniversary, where a number of the TV events actually made the point at the start of: "We are not filming in the town of Whitehaven. We're filming outside today to respect the wishes of the local community." Q. Were the experiences of the force any better when Cumbria experienced the floods the year before? LORD JUSTICE LEVESONBefore you go to the floods, that is the TV. I have a wide enough remit as it is, without going into television behaviour. MR MACKEYYes, sir. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONI'd be very interested to know about the conduct of the rest of the media. MR MACKEYI think as you've heard, I would characterise that sort of relationship and cycle for all of the media at a national level. So the print media, during the end of the incident and the time they remained predominantly in Whitehaven, which became the centre of this, that's when we had the challenges with approaches to families, we had allegations about offers of money and you name it. The allegations came in in terms of the sort of approach and style. I think, as I say, the overwhelming feel of the communities and I can't speak on behalf of the communities, but certainly the people I spoke to and elected leaders and local members of the Church, was just this anger and dismay at the way both the communities had been portrayed and more particularly the families and those involved in this incident had been treated. MS BOONI was going to ask if there is any contrast to be drawn between the reporting then and the reporting before of the floods. MR MACKEYI think the reporting of the floods was overwhelmingly really good in terms of the way it was reported. In many ways, some members of the national media understood very quickly because they were out on the ground in West Cumbria, ie out and about understood the impact of what had taken place, particularly in relation to the damage to the infrastructure and the tragic loss of our friend and colleague, Bill Barker, and it was reported well, it was balanced, there was an awful lot of work around what had gone on, and was very much a feeling in the county that we were all keen, across the county, not to get Cumbria forgotten, that this tragic event didn't just happen in 2009 and everybody sort of disappear off and then the county struggle to get back on its feet again with what was substantial damage and dislocation of communities. Q. Ms Shearer, during that time, did you experience the level of aggression that you experienced? MS SHEARERNo, we didn't, and I think the really important thing for us was we were able to work really well with the media, because they had an important role to play in warning and informing. Because as you can imagine, sort of the rain fell in the central Lake District and it took a couple of days to come out into Worthington and that area. So it was a really moving scene and the media were incredibly supportive in helping us delivering the warning and informing messages on an hourly basis. Q. Mr Mackey, just returning briefly to June 2010 and that investigation and operation. You mention in your statement that there was an unauthorised disclosure from a police officer and there was a report in the North West Evening Mail. Could you tell us about what happened then? MR MACKEYI don't remember the exactly detail. Gill, do you remember is that acceptable, sorry? Q. Yes. MS SHEARERBasically we obviously did media monitoring and my team picked up the article in North West Evening Mail. There was detail in there that hadn't been released. We made a referral to our professional standards department, but they had all we already operate a confidential reporting line, and somebody who had worked alongside the officer had contacted that confidential reporting line. So we put the two together, we were able to very quickly identify the officer and we spoke to they were spoken to on behalf of the organisation and given advice about what they'd done. Q. You say in your statement that the information given was emotive and distressing to some victims' families. MS SHEARERThat's right. Q. In that circumstances, was management advice a proportionate response, do you think? MS SHEARERYes, it was, because it was an act of naivety. They hadn't done it with an aim, but they'd just been having a conversation and they hadn't realise what had they were saying was going to be reported and it was just purely down to naivety. Q. I wasn't sure if you wanted to add something, Mr Mackey. Your body languages suggested you might want to? MR MACKEYNo, I now Gill reminds me of the case, I remember it well in terms of the circumstances around it. We were very strong as an organisation in terms of trying to follow up media leaks, and I think it was indicative that a colleague had felt sufficiently moved to phone the confidential reporting line. So someone had clearly felt that what was done was wrong and it called it in. Thankfully, that was part of the culture of Cumbria Constabulary and the people that work for it. Q. That takes us neatly to the question of leaks. You identify, Mr Mackey, that there were, since 1 December 2007, 11 suspected leaks to the media which warranted investigation. If you want to refer to your statement, it's paragraph 29, page 02279. MR MACKEYYes, thank you. Q. None of those were criminal investigations; is that right? MR MACKEYNo, they were police discipline investigations. There was no criminal intent in relation to those incidents. Q. Of the 11 that were investigated, in three the sources were identified, two resulted in management action and one in a warning from a superintendent. Again, Mr Mackey, those are quite low-level outcomes. Can you assist with the detail? MR MACKEYI can only remember in relation to one. I don't know whether you can remember in relation to the other two, Gill? MS SHEARERYes. Superintendent's warning given. An officer disclosed to a reporter that the Chief Constable had not forwarded the police minister's Christmas message was one. Management advice given, as we've just talked about, and management action where a PC sent to a local paper directing them to an article from another publication that refers to a sex offender, giving the offender's name. MR MACKEYSo relatively, in the scheme of things and a superintendent's warning at that time was a discipline outcome in terms of the process. Q. Yes, and I think, Mr Mackey, you say in your statement that there was no evidence to suggest that there was any form of inducement to provide the information, whether financial or otherwise? MR MACKEYNo. MR GARNHAMSir, sorry to interrupt, I think an error I'm looking at paragraph 29 of Mr Mackey's statement. The period he's describing is from 1 December 2007, not 2011. MS BOONOh, I meant to say 07. MR GARNHAMAnd I think it was 11 leaks, not one. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThank you, Mr Garnham. MS BOONMr Mackey, perhaps we can take this section as read. You set out the systems in place for detecting and preventing leaks and the auditing of the same. Ms Shearer, in 2006, there was a restructuring of the press office. You refer to in a new measure being brought in to challenge articles that included information from a police source. Why did you do this? MS SHEARERWhen I joined the constabulary, we didn't have any policies or procedures around how we dealt with our media, and our chief officers at the time were really uncomfortable about this, so we brought the policies and procedures in but we still had an issue around people speaking and not giving their name to the media. So what we did was when we had a particularly high-profile case, we put media strategies in place which have a delegated spokesperson to the media, and then what we did after that is just challenge. So when an article went out my team were responsible for media monitoring we would pick it up and have a look and when it was unattributed, we would go back through to the SIO and say, "Right, who's had access to this information?" and just have a look at it. So it was done very informally. It was just a very mild challenge, and that then enabled us to make sure that we didn't have any unattributed quotes and people did actually make them attributed. Q. Has that label "police source" now disappeared from the local media? MS SHEARERAbsolutely. Q. You heard Ms Pickles and Mr Griffiths give their view on the use of Twitter by the organisation. Is there anything you wanted to say in response to the concerns they've raised? MS SHEARERI think social media is an exciting time for the way that we communicate LORD JUSTICE LEVESONIt's not quite how she described it. MS SHEARERNo, and it comes with an opportunity, and I think we are all finding our feet around what social media will look like, and I picked up their comments today, which weren't new to me, and we are trying to put something behind when they talk about officers putting tweets out, so that we can put the two together. But there are some times where social media actually has a huge help to us around investigations, and I used an example of a missing person who was obviously from Cumbria, who we then thought had come to London and we were able to use retweets and we have a monitoring system and we were able to sort of constantly be reaching 20/40,000 of people at the same time. So for that, for us, for a communication tool, it is really beneficial. But it is an exciting time, it's not without its challenges, and I think for us, as a police service we're normally quite hesitant of taking on new forms of communication, and for us, as a force, our ability to embrace Twitter is really outstanding, and something that, you know, it would take a long time, if it were something different, for my team to create that same enthusiasm. Q. Mr Mackey, you've been nodding as Ms Shearer's been speaking. Is the use of social media something you would embrace for communicating with the communities? MR MACKEYYes. It's a direct means of communication. It's very quick, instantaneous. As Gill says, it doesn't come without risks. It would be fair to say if I was doing an assessment of where I am now to where I was last year, Cumbria's probably a bigger user of social media than the Metropolitan Police, even given the size of the two organisation. It embraced Twitter, Facebook, Bebo, all the social media far earlier than most others, and it also has some real practical examples. I'd go back to the 2009 flooding where the intelligence cell actually found a lot of people who had been evacuated by Facebook status and followed things up in a way that previously we'd have got in a car and gone off and done things. It also brings an immediacy to it in terms of last Christmas' drink drive operation, information going straight out on Twitter in terms of what we were doing, where we were. It brings an immediacy and an accountability in terms of what's going on. It's not ideal, the limitation on characteristics, and it's not without its challenges in terms of people going beyond how they should in terms of their interaction, but as a general principle, it's here to stay and I think we have to embrace it. Q. Returning, if I may briefly, to June 2010, when you were experiencing the difficulties with journalists and camera operators refusing to leave the families' door steps, did you also consider reporting the matter to Ofcom? MS SHEARERWe didn't at that time, no. No, we didn't. Q. Was there a reason why you didn't? MS SHEARERNo. The difficulty was about getting the specifics. If we could, you know, say, "It was this crew here" it was very difficult. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONBut you could be able to say it's the BBC, and Ofcom could deal with television. MS SHEARERYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONOr not. I'm not seeking unnecessarily to castigate the BBC or whoever it was. MS BOONPerhaps before I ask you about the future, Mr Shearer, if I ask you about an example you give of very responsible and trustworthy conduct on behalf of members of the press, an example you give of a local journalist finding some information which he or she identified might be relevant to an investigation and the publication of that information might prejudice an investigation, and they got in contact with you. Is that right? Do you want to the give any more colour to that example? MS SHEARERI don't at this moment because it's still active LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThank you, yes. Move on. MS BOONI will move on. I certainly don't want to prejudice an investigation. We've obviously dealt with conduct that's concerned you, but there's been conduct that supports your trust in the media as well that you've referred to in your statement. MS SHEARERThat's absolutely right. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONI think for the future, when you're going to we need to split these two witnesses up. MS BOONYes. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONBecause, Ms Shearer, I'm interested in your view of what I was told by Ms Pickles about the relationship between the press and the police up in Cumbria. Mr Mackey has quite different issues to address. She was very comfortable about the nature of the relationship, and, well, you've heard her evidence. Do you want to add anything to that? MS SHEARERNo, I think I would just support what Ms Pickles said. We do have a good working relationship. There are times when there were tensions, frustrations, and I think you heard Mr Griffiths talk about deadlines, but that's healthy. But generally, on the whole, do the News Star and Cumbria News Group hold Cumbria police to account? Yes, they do. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONDo I gather there is an encouragement, from what you're saying, that individual officers should engage with the media and deal with them? MS SHEARERAbsolutely. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONDo they have to tell you about that if they do? MS SHEARERNo. No. I think, again, when you're dealing with higher level strategic issues, they should come through the press office, but certainly if you're dealing with low-level issues, then they are empowered to talk to the media and they are a very good advocate of talking to media. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThat's not quite my question. You don't need to know that people are talking to the press? MS SHEARERNo, you don't. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONSo you don't require them to at least keep a note that they have, so that if it ever did come about, you could ask the question: "Why is this person always talking to that reporter?" That's not something that you've been concerned with? MS SHEARERI think we need to I've just come back from an extended period of leave and it is something that we need to look at. It is part of the work that I will pick up after today to have a look at and review. Do I think it's healthy to ask officers to write a little note in a notebook? I think that probably is a good idea, and quite reasonably easy to do for them, so that there is a note there. But are we looking at draconian forms to fill in? That wouldn't be in my LORD JUSTICE LEVESONWell, it wouldn't be in mine either. Did you want to ask anything more? MS BOONThere's one more thing I wanted to ask Ms Shearer, and that's arising from paragraph 23.2 of your statement. That's at page 09692: "I had previously thought that the acceptance of hospitality should be at an individual's discretion and judgment but in line with our force policy. However, given the recent developments, I will be making recommendations to the constabulary that police personnel do not accept any hospitality from the media and all declines are reported to the press office." Do you remain of that view now, that no hospitality whatsoever should be accepted? MS SHEARERNo, I don't. I think it's very much down to what I'll be looking back at our policies to make sure I think as we heard Mr Griffiths describe, when he goes to a police station in the morning to accept a cup of tea is acceptable, but I'll be making sure that it's guidelines around there, that it gives our officers an understanding of what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable. So certainly, you know, I perceive it being a good way of Mr Griffiths talking to his local officers and would encourage that, but obviously it would be very clear around what the boundaries are and what the principles are. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONIt seems to me there is a real difference between doing that on the one hand, or perhaps a police officer who a reporter has worked with for years saying, "I'm retiring come and have a drink with me on my retirement", to routine meetings in the pub chatting about the work of the day or the week or the month. They seem to be quite different. Would you agree? MS SHEARERAbsolutely. MS BOONSir, that's all I had for Ms Shearer. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThank you very much. MS BOONMr Mackey, in your present role as Deputy Commissioner, we've already heard that it's your role to review the recommendations of the HMIC report and the Elizabeth Filkin report. MR MACKEYYes. Q. And then to report to the management board. MR MACKEYYes. Q. Can you give us any information about the progress of that review and any provisional findings that you may have made or your thinking at this time? MR MACKEYYes, thank you. A number of things have been put in place since my arrival nine weeks ago in terms of work around new interim media guidelines, and they're currently being consulted on within the Metropolitan Police Service and they're due to come to management board for sign-off in April. Those are interim guidelines. They pick up the recommendations from Elizabeth Filkin's report, they also pick up the wider work we've been doing with the Association of Chief Police Officers around trying to ensure that there is one set of media guidelines for policing insofar as it is possible to do. Done some work around the gifts and hospitality, both looking backwards and looking forwards in terms of the work around that new policy and the systems that are in place around it. We've opened up the world of social media and the work around that, so we have a social media policy, and talking about how individual boroughs and individual teams are putting information out into the public domain about policing operations across London and, some of the challenges of policing across London. And we're also going through a restructure of the DPA from a scenario of a part of the organisation that's predominantly focused on press, press activities, into a much wider media and communications that recognises the changes that are taking place, both in the local media and the national media in terms of what we do. So those are in place at the moment. We very much see this as interim guidelines. We're clearly mindful of anything that should come from the Inquiry or from elsewhere in terms of the work to do that, but it's actually an interim position that allows us to move forward in terms of both the relationships at a management board level and throughout the Metropolitan Police with the media. In relation to issues about reporting and recording, we are recommending that a note is made of it, and it's a note about the fact that the meeting took place, not, as sometimes has been believed, some sort of verbatim transcript, and we're suggesting additionally we're just looking at the feasibility of being able to do this for management board members, so that's the key members of the Metropolitan Police, that we make that available on the Internet, so there is a transparency and a visibility of the contact we're having with the media. So that's what we've done at this stage. Q. In terms of noting contacts with members of the media, it's just the fact of the contact? MR MACKEYYeah, it's the fact of the contact and a general point about what was discussed. What we're not asking for is a verbatim note. So, for instance: "Craig Mackey, Deputy Commissioner, met three editors on this day", or "met a journalist in the outside of the court and I discussed X." Done. Q. One of the concerns that's been expressed by members of the media during this Inquiry has been that at the moment there's been something of a some have described it as a paralysis or a chilling effect. Words like that have been used to convey the message that officers are feeling that there's something wrong with contacting the media, they're less inclined to speak directly to members of the media. Is that something that you've sought to address in your interim position? MR MACKEYYes, we have sought to address the interim position, and I've also, in meetings with journalists and colleagues, had that feedback in terms of this perception that somehow the Metropolitan Police has shut down. I think, given everything that's going on, there was always going to to be a rebalancing, and it's easier to bring the bar back down that it is to raise the bar at a later stage, so I think some of that is almost inevitable, given the coverage of what's been going on, but we recognise that in terms of the principles that we're trying to address in the interim guidelines. MS BOONThank you, sir. I have nothing further. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONRight. First of all, just going back to Cumbria, would you agree with the view, as expressed by Ms Pickles and generally, that in relation to the local press their relationship and their involvement in the community is such that there simply is not the sort of problem that has been identified in other contexts with the national press? MR MACKEYYes, I would. I don't think there's the currency about media issues in the Cumbrian context that there is in the national context here in London and the opportunities to do anything about it are far less limited in a Cumbria context, so it is a completely different relationship, yes, sir. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONSo you would agree with the endorsement that I gave to Ms Pickles from your perspective as well? MR MACKEYYes, sir. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONYou've travelled 250 miles, whatever it is, from Carlisle to London. Have you, in the nine weeks, been able to see either aspects that you recognise from Cumbria and I notice the other forces you've been involved in are comparatively small forces or do you find it utterly different because of the national dynamic? I'm just interested to get your feedback on this. MR MACKEYThank you, sir. It is different but not unique. Real local stories still break in boroughs across London, are dealt with by local journalists or have a footprint that is perhaps the Standard or LBC or very much a London feel to it. There is then the national dynamic that makes things very different around London, and that's the national media effectively responding as a local media for London, and that does bring a different dynamic in terms of the demands and particularly the level of detail that's required to service that. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONHave you given thought, in the context of your review, to ways of ensuring what is good within the local context, whether it's up in Carlisle or in Gloucester or in Salisbury or in a London borough, preserving that while, at the same time, addressing that which has clearly caused problems, if the evidence that I've heard is to be accepted, in a rather more febrile atmosphere that may surround national policing and New Scotland Yard? MR MACKEYYes, sir, and I think it's about being very clear on going back to some principles. So the first principle very much around: why are you, as an individual, having an interaction with the media? It comes back to the questions earlier on about: it takes place within a policing context. So being very clear, that's why the interaction with me as a senior member of the Metropolitan Police Service or anyone else is taking place; it is in relation to a policing context. It's also then being very clear on the values of the organisation. The Commissioner and many others were very clear on the values of the organisation, around transparency and integrity and how we do business. And then also being quite clear for officers and staff that we gather information on a different basis to the media. We also have a duty of confidentiality in relation to the information we gather. A lot of it is gathered for a policing purpose. We share it only when it's right and proper to do so, not just was because it's the right thing to do. I think the other thing that will help that slightly febrile atmosphere is also the expansion of the media beyond some of the traditional forms. I touched on the issues around social media and many of the other ways of communicating information. Because we're absolutely clear we have work to do about the openness and transparency and getting information out to communities in terms of what we do, to secure legitimacy, but it's being really, really clear why we're doing it and what we're doing it for. That's what we're trying to manage. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONOf course, it might be said that an Assistant Commissioner lunching with an editor is about developing relationships and police business. Now, I'm sure a view will be taken about that and Mr Hogan-Howe's said as much, but how is one going to be able to get the understanding out there without creating the perception that there are special relationships that feed back into the Met? MR MACKEYI think, sir, that is about the transparency, so things like the idea that contact at the senior level at the Metropolitan Police is available for people to see on the Internet, so you can actually see whether an assistant commissioner is having meetings. It's also very much about how we operate as a management board, and I'm sure you've heard the Commissioner talking around that in terms of the professional relationships within the board, the ability to challenge each other and address those issues. It is having those difficult conversations. That's part of being a leader and a manager. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONYes. Is there anything else that you feel that it would be helpful to cover in your evidence as regards the work that you're now undertaking in the Met? MR MACKEYI don't think so. Thank you, sir, I think I've had the opportunity. Thank you very much. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThank you. MS BOONSir, before you rise, may I add that the evidence of senior investigating officer Iain Goulding, who was the SIO in the Derek Bird investigation, is being read in today. LORD JUSTICE LEVESONThank you very much indeed. 10 o'clock tomorrow. (4.26 pm)

Witnesses

Crime reporter with the Carlisle-based News & Star and Cumberland News at the time of the Inquiry. Reported a good working relationship on a daily basis with police. No hospitality beyond coffee was offered or expected. He told the Inquiry that it was right that police should be available to the press and not hidden away because of some bad practices by a few national reporters.

Born 1962. Deputy Commissioner of London's Metropolitan Police Service. Held senior roles within Cumbria, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire Constabularies, as well as a specialist staff-officer role in Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary. He gave the inquiry his view on managing relations with the press in Cumbria. Mackey was awarded the Queen's Police Medal for distinguished service in 2009 and appointed a Knight Bachelor in the 2018 New Year’s Honours for services to Policing.

Associate Editor, Cumbrian Newspapers, Carlisle, at the time of the Inquiry. Responsible for reporting and writing for the daily tabloid News & Star and The Cumberland News. Told the Inquiry that relations with the police were straightforwardly courteous and formal.

Head of Marketing and Communications for Cumbria Constabulary at time of Inquiry. Prior to this, she had worked in a number of marketing and communication roles both at NatWest and at the National Farmers' Union, for whom she dealt with media inquiries throughout the foot-and-mouth disease crisis.

Themes

Understand all the key topics and the context behind the Inquiry's findings