padma norbu wrote:...since it makes some sense as long as you don't think about it too much.

What does make sense is that consciousness is conditioned by things occurring throughout a much wider timeline than our own, and that stuff like; the english language, flushing toilets, nuclear warheads, etc. all have an impact on future generations of consciousnesses indistinguishable from our own for a time far greater than one individual lifespan.

Sure, that makes sense, but the boomerang kablooey does not. Especially when we're talking about realms of torture. THAT only makes sense, imo, if we're talking about OTHER consciousness punishing you for your sins. I can't see any reason why sadistic consciousness would turn masochist. And especially why it would conform to a concept like climbing a spikey tree, for example, with demons nipping at your toes. We've got various hell realms with demon punishers who torture you in various ways.

Isn't it other consciousnesses who have their fingers on the buttons to fire those nuclear warheads?

I remember reading a long time back about the experience of torturers (maybe in a book by Franz Fanon) and about how they were seriously affected by their actions. It was not simply a case of victim and perpetrator being so easily divided into discrete consciousnesses.

we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche

padma norbu wrote:I'm not saying I don't believe it, please note. Just that I don't understand it and am not so sure it's meant literally. If it is supposed to be literal, then I am reminded of one person's near-death experience in which he was being dragged against his will by demons (he described them as "black plastic people with a face like a gorilla"). That WOULD be other-consciousness punishing you for your sins. Since hell realms are samsara, I suppose that's possible. Like, maybe they can "smell" your particular sadistic frequency and come flying after you as soon as you leave the body.

In that case, it sounds to me like that experience was created by his own mindstream, but it does give a hint as to the direction he was heading, which could crystalise into a more permanent state...

I'm not so sure it is meant literally either, but may well be interpreted that way - which seems to be conveyed more in terms of a permanent self simply due to our inability to conceive of it otherwise. Who knows?

What I do know is that actions have consequences, and having taken certain paths which seemed like a "good idea at the time", I have ended up experiencing certain mind states that could well have been avoided.

we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche

padma norbu wrote:... what makes no sense is that habitual conditioning produces self-inflicting wound results. Oh, because someone likes to sodomize little boys, they're going to have to climb a spike tree? Explain to me how that makes sense.

Well, I don't think one should understand this literally.

The same way we have no control over what kind of dreams we have while sleeping, but they just arise from old impressions and karmic traces interacting with each other within our minds, the same way it happens when we are awake.Karma is the reason that free will is an illusion: we just react in a certain way, different kinds of karmic traces getting activated by secondary causes. We cannot really choose to feel in another way what we feel in a certain situation. Or to think something else what we are thinking.We don't really know why we feel or think the way we do, these things just arise within our minds because they correspond with something within us.The same inability to control our emotions, reactions and visions continues during bardo: those uncontrolled visions lead to the next birth, and if those visions correspond to the hell realm, the birth will occur there.

Free will is something that can be attained through reflecting and the development of awareness. Through this an inner transformation will become possible, that lessens the grip of karma over the mind. So that the mind can become able to follow something else than karma ....

Glad I brought this up. Good answers. And, tatparusa, that was perfect coming out of our last discussion about 'tricking the mind into sutra' and 'weaving' of tantra. Hopefully, I can remember this the next time I think about hell realms. Every few months I seem to consider it again and wonder about it.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

My first Dharma teacher explained karma like a snowball rolling down the hill. It gathers speed and mass as it keeps rolling. I guess the snowball keeps on rolling and gathering mass until it meets something that stops it. I never thought EDIT (rebirth) karma was personal, I saw it more as a math equation… lol

I can experience that thorny tree if I think and follow/take action regarding negative thinking here and now.

EDIT: I try not to think about Karma too much, I've read a great deal about it both Theravada and Vajrayana. But the details if you think about it related to your own life get very crazy if you look too close. I try and keep it simple as possible and obey as much of sila as I can, trying to stay aware when I feel apathy and fatigue (getting old I want to sleep all the time) while working with my circumstances.

Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living

yeah, I've always thought of it as a big maths calculation, too. Which is why the particulars of these hells seemed out of place to me. Makes more sense to me now, though, so I don't want to dwell any longer on what I thought was odd about it.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

I was so fascinated with the Coral-Tree(Parichart-Tree)..the moment I did read the Kamanita story and dreamt that when I reborn in heaven...I would go to this magic tree to recall my past-lives!!

I saw many beautiful CORAL TREES in Bangkok...beautiful red flowers..and the young-leaves are also edible with peanut/coconut flakes/dried shrimps top with sweet sauce..ooh so yummy. I did the research and found out that CORAL TREES can be found in many colors in different countries: India, USA, Australia etc.

According to "The Sakka, King Of Devas/Devis" story....in his past life as Magha, he loved to plant CORAL TREES near the rest houses that he and his 33 friends built for travellers/wanderers. After all the meritorious deeds and his 7 silas...Magha was reborn as Sakka king of Tavatimsa World with all his 33 deva-friends. The huge beautiful CORAL TREE also appears in Tavatimsa Heaven, any deva/devi who smell these red CORAL flowers will recall his/her past-lives (in Thai Tipitaka, the Coral-Tree = Parichart-Tree).

NOTE: Kamanita/Vasitthi smelled the CORAL TREE FLOWERS and recalled their past-lives.[From the book "Kamanita And Vasitthi"]

Over the pinnacles of the rocks and the summit ofthe tree rose the deep blue sky in which not a single cloudwas to be seen. Nor did the music of the gandharvaspenetrate in any appreciable degree to this spot — whatstill trembled in the air seemed to be but a memory ofmelodies heard in the long past.

There were but three colours to be seen in thevalley: the cerulean blue of the heavens, the malachitegreen of the rocks, the coral red of the tree. And only oneperfume — that mysterious fragrance, so unlike all others,of the crimson flowers which had led Kāmanīta there.Almost immediately the wonderful nature of thatperfume began to show itself.

As Kāmanīta inhaled it here, in the dense form inwhich it filled the whole basin, his consciousness becamesuddenly brightened. It overflowed and broke through thebarriers which had been raised about him from the time ofhis awakening in the lake until the present.His past life lay open before him.

tidathep wrote:Yes, I truly believe that sexual misconduct-people will climb pointy trees in hell[/b][/color]. Even on this earth, so many people suffer with sexual abuse; prostitutes are abused by pimps, young girls' private parts are sewn..leave only the vagina part for men to have sex with them, very young girls are forced to marry old men even in USA, young boys are sodomized etc. If these people were good men/women who never committed sexual misconducts in the past life...would they have to live with these kammas? Oh, I do believe everything I read in the Tipitaka since I was very young.

One of the things that saddens me most about the topic of karma and law of cause and effect is how this complex concept is often oversimplified by people and in doing so, they end up feeding their hatred/aversion instead of compassion.

I think there's a real risk for Buddhists (just like followers of other religions) to wear our beliefs like a cape of self-righteousness that blinds us - and thus, paradoxically, ensnares us even more in samsara.

The way I understand it, Buddhism teaches us that no man is an island, and the way the law of cause and effect works is extremely complex. After all, we actually never know how another person's bad karma relates or will relate to us in another life.

My humble opinion is that it's safer if each of us minds his or her own karma, instead of passing judgment on that of others'.

Another way to put it, is this: a person who is suffering now, is extinguishing their past bad karma. But whoever shows contempt towards them is accumulating more. So by not showing compassion to another being, you're actually damaging yourself. Why would you do such a thing?

ཁོང་ཁྲོ་སློང་མཁན་མེད་ན། བཟོད་པ་སུ་ལ་སྒོམ།

When there is no one to provoke anger, how shall we practice patience?