Tuesday 8th March 2011 18:04:59

Re: Class 1 police driving test

Re: Class 1 police driving test

[quote author=daz6215 link=topic=38258.msg302541#msg302541 date=1299600910]With the greatest respect to Class 1 or 2, what makes them qualified to examine other peoples driving? have they all done examiners courses? Infact why do you need to be ex police at-all because there are no exemptions used and the system of car control can be implemented and examined by civilians if no exemptions are being used. I know of one examiner who Im good friends with who is ex class 1 and now an examiner, he may have done the course but is he trained to spot faults on a class 1 course?

What makes them qualified is that RoSPA says they are qualified. RoSPA (and the IAM and many other organisations) makes the rules for their own organisations. I suspect that it is a good selling point to be examined by a police advanced driver etc. After all, if someone just wanted to be examined by a qualified ADI they can do that any time they want can't they.

As you say, being a good driver does not necessarily make you a good instructor or examiner and the opposite is also true. Some ADIs are not very good drivers. I suspect that the theory goes that at least a police driver has passed their course and also seen some other good drives and has a comparison to go with. The way I look at grading people for their RoSPA tests is that I can recognise a fail, a bronze and a gold standard so anything else is, by default, a silver. (This is why the range of the silver grade is so wide.) IAM basic pass standard is the same as the RoSPA basic silver pass standard. I agree that lots of drivers can recognise different standards of driving but in my experience not even may diploma holders have the depth of knowledge that is given on a police advanced course. I would suggest that it's not enough to know what to do, you also have to know why you do it. If you have experience of driving in the police environment you have more experience than most even if the people you are examining are not being tested in that environment. I also think that in order to examine someone the examiner should be ideally of a higher standard so that they can see how there might be a further improvement. If a diploma holder has to examine another diploma holder what if they are of a similar standard or the person on test is of a higher standard? This could cause credibility issues.

It still doesn't make someone qualified to examine another's driving because the IAM or RoSPA say it is, it's simply a USP for them to get joe public to buy courses. I would agree if the class 1 driver had been a qualified police examiner who had attended an examiners course then yes they obviously are qualified to do so, just my opinion of course but to be credible then you should be able to back it up with on the job experience, which is what your saying too, isn't it?

Re: Class 1 police driving test

With the greatest respect to Class 1 or 2, what makes them qualified to examine other peoples driving? have they all done examiners courses? Infact why do you need to be ex police at-all because there are no exemptions used and the system of car control can be implemented and examined by civilians if no exemptions are being used. I know of one examiner who Im good friends with who is ex class 1 and now an examiner, he may have done the course but is he trained to spot faults on a class 1 course?

The standard required to attain RoSPA GOLD is that the person should, if the opportunity arose, go on to successfully complete the police Advanced Course.

Ergo, the only persons who can judge that standard are those who have a police Advanced grade.

Re: Class 1 police driving test

When an examiner is appointed the regional examiner accompanies them on their first tests to make sure that they are doing the right things. IAM examiners are then regularly examined to make sure they are maintaining that standard, RoSPA do it slightly differently looking at the examiner's grades and comparing them to the country wide averages. Let's be honest here, examining someone's driving is not hard once you have a standard in your mind. I look for safety, legality and smoothness. The drive also has to be systematic, the vehicle correctly positioned and the driver has to make safe legal reasonable progress. It's not rocket science. It's probably more a selling point.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think most people pay to be examined for a RoSPA test?

Re: Class 1 police driving test

[quote author=daz6215 link=topic=38258.msg302541#msg302541 date=1299600910]With the greatest respect to Class 1 or 2, what makes them qualified to examine other peoples driving? have they all done examiners courses? Infact why do you need to be ex police at-all because there are no exemptions used and the system of car control can be implemented and examined by civilians if no exemptions are being used. I know of one examiner who Im good friends with who is ex class 1 and now an examiner, he may have done the course but is he trained to spot faults on a class 1 course?

The standard required to attain RoSPA GOLD is that the person should, if the opportunity arose, go on to successfully complete the police Advanced Course.

Ergo, the only persons who can judge that standard are those who have a police Advanced grade.

The RoSPA course is a civilian course, it has no exemptions whatsoever, you dont have to be a police advanced driver to judge what is a gold/silver/bronze or fail, I would say most of the experienced trainers who have done RoSPA on here could correctly examine for it if it was necessary.

Re: Class 1 police driving test

Police traffic advanced drivers are trained to a very standard and I don't know of a standard that is higher than that

One of the reasons that they are trained to such a high standard is because they have to sit in the initial judgement of the driving by others

That initial judgement has to be done by observing other drivers and judging whether they meet a certain standard

With all that in mind - is it any wonder that the advanced driving organisations choose these to be their examiners?

I dont think that is in dispute, RoSPA is a civilian course, it is not a police course and a DSA driving examiner also has to judge driving standards, If people are training other drivers to achieve gold and above, it therefore stands to reason they could also judge a gold drive or a fail if they witnessed one!

Re: Class 1 police driving test

Re: Class 1 police driving test

We have to remember that the DSA, in general, test for basic driving ability which is their main remit

Roadcraft is a progression from that basic remit

I will give a very simple example: -A roundabout that is marked with lanes and no one aboutDSA will expect the driver to keep within their laneRoadcraft expects the driver to use all the available road area (straight lining)

The DSA way WILL, in normal circumstances, keep the driver safe but will hinder progressThe Roadcraft way enables the driver to make safe progress but requires a greater awareness to do so

The problems come about when drivers do it the second way but without the awareness!!

IAM ObserverLeicester group of advanced motoristsLGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

Re: Class 1 police driving test

whats the difference between IPSGA and MSPSL?

I am aware that there are differences with regard to positioning and the straight lining of roundabouts can you think of any more?

SignallingAdvanced driving positively discourages the use of signals unless there is another road user to signal toThat has the added effect of making the driver look around that much more and be ready to signal if another then comes into view

Not something that the DSA like very much!!

IAM ObserverLeicester group of advanced motoristsLGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

Re: Class 1 police driving test

[quote author=(ROG) link=topic=38258.msg302568#msg302568 date=1299615095]Police traffic advanced drivers are trained to a very standard and I don't know of a standard that is higher than that

One of the reasons that they are trained to such a high standard is because they have to sit in the initial judgement of the driving by others

That initial judgement has to be done by observing other drivers and judging whether they meet a certain standard

With all that in mind - is it any wonder that the advanced driving organisations choose these to be their examiners?

I dont think that is in dispute, RoSPA is a civilian course, it is not a police course and a DSA driving examiner also has to judge driving standards, If people are training other drivers to achieve gold and above, it therefore stands to reason they could also judge a gold drive or a fail if they witnessed one!

RoSPA is just an organisation which has devised a test, very few people have to take the test, if you don't agree with how it's run don't get involved in it if you don't want to! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you don't like how things are done, walk away. Do you really need a DSA SE to examine ADIs for their tests or could an ADI just do it? If so what grade ADI 4, 5 or 6? There are differenced in standards between RoSPA golds the same as there are with any other standards, how do you know if the gold holder is good enough if they themselves just managed a gold. Surely if they knew what was required to get a good gold they would have done it on their test. It is better to have someone who is trained to a higher standard than the standard they are examining to examining, hence the police trained examiners. Would it be OK to have someone who has just passed their L test examining others on their L test or would you expect the L examiner to be of a higher standard?

Re: Class 1 police driving test

Re: Class 1 police driving test

[quote author=daz6215 link=topic=38258.msg302570#msg302570 date=1299615386][quote author=(ROG) link=topic=38258.msg302568#msg302568 date=1299615095]Police traffic advanced drivers are trained to a very standard and I don't know of a standard that is higher than that

One of the reasons that they are trained to such a high standard is because they have to sit in the initial judgement of the driving by others

That initial judgement has to be done by observing other drivers and judging whether they meet a certain standard

With all that in mind - is it any wonder that the advanced driving organisations choose these to be their examiners?

I dont think that is in dispute, RoSPA is a civilian course, it is not a police course and a DSA driving examiner also has to judge driving standards, If people are training other drivers to achieve gold and above, it therefore stands to reason they could also judge a gold drive or a fail if they witnessed one!

hence the police trained examiners.

By the way, what do you train to which is above Gold?

Thats the point they are not or have never been an examiner whilst serving in the police, they are drivers with a licence and because of an organisations say so can now examine based on the acquisition of that licence.

Re: Class 1 police driving test

A short history lesson;In 1955 Louise Duncan formed the Finchley League of Safe Drivers. They arranged for police instructors from Hendon to train and eventually test them. The groups popularity spread throughout the country and other organisations set up local branches, again assisted and tested by police. The groups enjoyed this because throughout there was uniformity. Gradually, a grading system was introduced, followed by re-tests. As the groups increased it was decided that police officers holding a Class 1 could also test as there were so many applicants. That became the norm.By the 1980's the organisation became so unwieldy they approached RoSPA ,who they had been associated with since the 50's, to take over the reins. In 1982 RoADA was born. It still held on to the Roadcraft principles and saw Class 1's as the ideal people to continue testing. Which brings us up to date.

RoSPA's policy is that all examiners will be recruited from serving or retired police officers who hold an Advanced qualification, or those employed to instruct to that level. The standard therefore, should be a common one.

We then come to the RoSPA Gold and where it stands in the police grading system. As I stated earlier a Gold will be awarded where a driver shows he has the potential to do well on a police Advanced Course. In other words he can only ever be a Class 3, (being that 1 and 2 are only awarded on an Advanced Course). So, the ability of the Examiner is always higher than the candidate.

They are then observed on test and both the Ex and the Senior Ex will mark the test and then confer afterwards. The SE is looking for conformity across the board. Strengths and weaknesses should be mirrored. The SE will periodically 'sit-in'. It is a requirement of the DSA.

An Examiner is selected. It is never a foregone conclusion that every police Advanced driver will be an Examiner. They are normally selected because they have exceptional ability, are purists in the Roadcraft sense, or are either instructors, examiners or have the potential to be.

I feel that some of your comments undermine what is done by RoSPA and its Examiners. It is a proven product. It is widely accepted to be the highest civilian advanced award.

Whilst I feel your grievance is that you cannot become an Examiner because that door is not open to you, I don't agree with your comments that those presently examining are not up to the job.

Re: Class 1 police driving test

HPC and the likes

HPC As has been said, we are all entitled to an opinion.

and the likes like what?

By the way, how do you feel about teaching for HPC, although I thought that was done by their Gatekeepers, and working on National Speed Awareness courses, which I am assuming is what a NSAS course is although please correct me if I have got that wrong? It would appear to be a bit of a conflict of interests.

Incidentally, if you are a member of the HPC you will probably know all about the difference between a class 1 and a civilian instructor grade. If not, ask one of their old Gatekeepers who for many years claimed to be one when in fact was actually the other.

Re: Class 1 police driving test

A short history lesson;In 1955 Louise Duncan formed the Finchley League of Safe Drivers. They arranged for police instructors from Hendon to train and eventually test them. The groups popularity spread throughout the country and other organisations set up local branches, again assisted and tested by police. The groups enjoyed this because throughout there was uniformity. Gradually, a grading system was introduced, followed by re-tests. As the groups increased it was decided that police officers holding a Class 1 could also test as there were so many applicants. That became the norm.By the 1980's the organisation became so unwieldy they approached RoSPA ,who they had been associated with since the 50's, to take over the reins. In 1982 RoADA was born. It still held on to the Roadcraft principles and saw Class 1's as the ideal people to continue testing. Which brings us up to date.

RoSPA's policy is that all examiners will be recruited from serving or retired police officers who hold an Advanced qualification, or those employed to instruct to that level. The standard therefore, should be a common one.

We then come to the RoSPA Gold and where it stands in the police grading system. As I stated earlier a Gold will be awarded where a driver shows he has the potential to do well on a police Advanced Course. In other words he can only ever be a Class 3, (being that 1 and 2 are only awarded on an Advanced Course). So, the ability of the Examiner is always higher than the candidate.

They are then observed on test and both the Ex and the Senior Ex will mark the test and then confer afterwards. The SE is looking for conformity across the board. Strengths and weaknesses should be mirrored. The SE will periodically 'sit-in'. It is a requirement of the DSA.

An Examiner is selected. It is never a foregone conclusion that every police Advanced driver will be an Examiner. They are normally selected because they have exceptional ability, are purists in the Roadcraft sense, or are either instructors, examiners or have the potential to be.

I feel that some of your comments undermine what is done by RoSPA and its Examiners. It is a proven product. It is widely accepted to be the highest civilian advanced award.

Whilst I feel your grievance is that you cannot become an Examiner because that door is not open to you, I don't agree with your comments that those presently examining are not up to the job.

One of whom, gave you a GOLD.

Thanks for the clarification of the history lesson, Im sorry you feel that way Monkey. So therefore if the examiner has to be a higher ability than the candidate it would stand to reason that every ADI on should be able to examine other peoples pupils, but we cant and the reason we cant is because we haven't attended Cardington to do a specific examiners course, which is I might add where the police would send there own people to learn to become examiners. I dont have a grievance whatsoever with the way things are just a difference of opinion which still remains, which is a civilian IMO could examine for a RoSPA test, after all its not rocket science, there is no exemptions being used so therefore a civilian could mark to same framework you do, I think personally a civilian with a very good application of roadcraft would have little or no difference to a class 1 driver driving within the remits of the law i.e not using exemptions. I have no ambitions to ever become an examiner, personally I would not find it stimulating enough and at no point have I said they are not up to the job. The examiner who assessed me by the way was head of the police driving school and was also a qualified examiner for the police.

Re: Class 1 police driving test

By the way, how do you feel about teaching for HPC, although I thought that was done by their Gatekeepers, and working on National Speed Awareness courses, which I am assuming is what a NSAS course is although please correct me if I have got that wrong? It would appear to be a bit of a conflict of interests.

Incidentally, if you are a member of the HPC you will probably know all about the difference between a class 1 and a civilian instructor grade. If not, ask one of their old Gatekeepers who for many years claimed to be one when in fact was actually the other.

Hi Ratty I am involved in lots of things but they dont spill into other areas and create conflict.

Re: Class 1 police driving test

Can you enlarge on the 'qualified' examiner for the police bit?

IF the police did an Examiners course it would definitely not be at Cardington. Cardington is DSA and the DSA have long accepted the need for the police to train from within. How would a Cardington examiner mark a police Advanced Test? and then train others to?

The exemptions you mention have no bearing on who is or isn't an examiner. I've explained that RoSPA Gold equates to a police Class 3 (Intermediate level). RoSPA's policy is to only have holders of an Advanced certificate as examiners. RoSPA make the policy. It doesn't have anything to do with the police.

I personally believe it should remain as it is. Look at comments made on this and other forums about observer/tutors and their interpretation of the system.

The jury is still out on RoadTest and the use of DriveTech staff as examiners. It hasn't been the groundbreaking wonder that was publicised at the launch.