September 15, 2009

Cardinal: Catholic traditionalists must respect Jews

The Society of Saint Pius X must respect Judaism, other Christian denominations and other religions before it may be fully reintegrated into the Catholic Church, Reuters is reporting.

On the eve of reconciliation talks with the traditionalist society whose bishops were excommunicated by Pope John Paul II in 1988, Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn of Vienna said these Vatican II reforms were “not negotiable.”

"It's not the case that Rome will let the Lefebvrists off easy for everything," Schoenborn told the German daily Passauer Neue Presse, calling the traditionalists after their founder Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Reuters is reporting.

The Vatican appears to be treading carefully after the condemnation that followed the decision of Pope Benedict XVI to rescind the excommunication of Bishop Richard Williamson, a society member who has denied the Holocaust. Benedict later said the Vatican handled the case badly.

Comments

Its a shame that churches have to get so much into politics, but it is sometimes neccesary. How can you have a church leader who denies the holocaust? Obviously we need to have love and prayer for this person, but that doesnt mean that someone with views such as this should be allowed to lead. Thanks.

Clay this issue is about a lot more than one person denying the Holocaust. The Society of Saint Pius X was excommunicated by Pope John Paul II in 1988. The SSPX broke with Rome in a dispute over the 1962-1965 Council, especially the call for respect for other faiths. That’s actually a simplified version. There is a lot more to it but I don’t want to get into all of that here.

BTW Clay any reason why you are passing judgment on someone? Suppose he was to repent for his mistake? Didn't Paul persecute Christians before becoming the disciple who helped bring the Good News to the Gentiles? I thought I’d give you something to think about.

Ah Clay,
Discovered you again-- you've said something quarter sane here--a feat that Robert Littel may be interested in checking out but then of course he will say you are a nincompoop for the love and prayer part. Forget Robert Littel--this time I am on your side--partial sanity from you is better than none whatsoever. I never did understand why anyone would want to run around denying the Holocaust and be classed with Ahmadinejad. But the Catholic church and the Nazis did have close ties in the past and the Catholic church has been trying to live down the good old days of it fascist associations with mea culpas and eloquent statements about the global brotherhood of religions. Denial of the Holocaust is an insidious attempt to deify Hitler, vindicate fascism and rewrite history to twice victimize Jews--once by the Holocaust and twice by calling their killers non existent and their collective suffering a myth. It is anti-semetism unvarnished and if it goes unchallenged it will birth other fascist empires-- the Catholic church at the level of the Vatican has a penchant for fascism itself with its non negotiable "moral" positions which are no more than a smorgasbord of dictatorial throat throttlers.

It is a shame and sad conservative christian followers of any Christan religion have to be reminded of Christ's teaching. I am sure they do not get it Jesus was a liberal in his earthly day. But certainly he was not an anti Semite.

Card. Schoenborn is playing politics. The doctrinal discussions with the SSPX are not happening till mid to late October.

The caricature presented by people of the magnificently holy Bishop Williamson is lamentable. He did not deny the "Holocaust" and inaccurate term, "The Shoah" is the proper term. He simply disagrees with some of the conclusions about the number and method of deaths. He agrees with the Red Cross numbers.

Should the Magisterium of the Church clearly define the issues of the Second Vatican Council, It will be Card. Schoenborn who will have to submit to authority and not his spin on the documents.

What does respecting views really mean? What I think they mean is don't say anything that might upset someone else. 'Go along to get along' is the old saying.
If Catholics don't stand up for the truth, we will have no truth but only relativism.
That is why the Catholic church is in a crisis today. Thank God for the SSPX and standing up for the beliefs of the Catholic Church no matter what.

Anonymous you actually sound like eloquent version of Robert with that latest post, other than the agreeing with Clay part. You wrote so much, but actually said so little. It kind of makes one wonder if the person rollicking at home with laptop at their command pretending to be something he isn’t is you.

"But the Catholic church and the Nazis did have close ties in the past"

Too bad you didn't bother enlightening us with some actual facts to support your verbose, phony intellectual rant. Why the hate towards the church? Sorry friend you sound like a want to be intellectual that feels the need to demean what you don’t understand or agree with.

Ravensfan I am getting on your nerves aren't I? Where is your famous Christian charity or for that matter tolerance? I said enough but perhaps you suffer from comprehension failure or MAY be a little Catholic pique? Yes, the Catholic church has had previous Nazi associations--yes, it has been trying to live these down--yes, the Jews are twice victimized by Holocaust denial. As for this holy Bishop Williamson he is nothing but a horrible embarrassment to the Catholic church--quibbling about the numbers dead in the Holocaust indeed. Like all politicians he digresses or gives a long winded explanation as to why he did what he did to hide his anti-semetism pumpkin under a few particles of sand. It won't wash. The quicker you come to terms with the fractious relationship between the Catholic church and the Jews--the sooner you accept that history Ravensfan the less you will be inclined to say that my opinions on that subject say very little Ravensfan. Ta ta!

I'd say it sounded like I struck a nerve with you Anonymous. I’m well aware of the Catholic Church’s history. The fact is you were quite wordy in posting a opinion for which you failed to provide details to substantiate. Thank you for your concern over for my charity and tolerance. Nothing in my post was untrue and that’s what really bugs you.

"As for this holy Bishop Williamson he is nothing but a horrible embarrassment to the Catholic church--quibbling about the numbers dead in the Holocaust indeed."

No. That is not accurate. He's actually probably one of the best bishops on the planet. When anyone meets him, you and your soul getting to Christ are the most important thing in the world to him. The fact that the events of WWII have been used to spread lies and calumny against the Church, Pope Benedict and Pius XII before him, and Williamson has the guts to actually address the history instead of the hysteria shows he's actually a man of conviction.

"Like all politicians he digresses or gives a long winded explanation as to why he did what he did to hide his anti-semetism pumpkin under a few particles of sand."

Hah! You are totally ignorant of Bishop Williamson. He's the least political man on the planet. He wants no power in the Church, which is actually why he's got such moral authority. He believes in Christ and the Catholic Church. He believes Jews need to convert to the Catholic Church in order to be saved. That's it. Only a real anti-semite would not impress that obligation for salvation on Jews and all other non-Catholics. Enough with the anti-semitism garbage, it's weaker each time the accusation is unjustly and irrationally thrown out.

"God made the world for one reason. For souls to populate Heaven with Him. All else is a distraction."--Bishop Williamson.

Gosh Ravensfan, what have we found here--Gerard--a Catholic Clay. Williamson not an anti-Semite but he wants all Jews to be saved by Catholicism. Precious! What say you Ravensfan? Gerard you need to have a conversation with Clay--he would assert Jews need to stay away from Catholicism to know the real Jesus and attain real salvation. ( Gosh, and some among you call all Muslims fanatics! ) By the way Ravensfan make up your mind--on the one hand you want me to be pithy and on the other you want me to provide,a man such as you, born with encyclopedic knowledge about the Catholic church, details to substantiate my claim that the Catholic church, once lay in an unholy bed with the Nazis. If you already know that history I would only be redundant with those details. If you don't know that history I will provide you with details. If you know any different then pass on the info--I'll keep an open mind. There ends the matter Ravensfan. And September 16 2.38 PM anonymous are you saying the Catholic church had nothing to do with the Nazis?

Anonymous Make up my mind? When did I ask you to provide me with anything? I simply pointed out a fact. You made an assertion you that you failed to support with anything. I’m sorry if the truth bothers you. I don't recall saying you couldn't simply you didn't. You seem to enjoy reading other peoples debates and don't really add anything to them. Instead you act like a cheerleader rooting them on. Other times you post rather long winded post trying to astonish with your vast knowledge while tossing in some sarcastic comments. You don’t even have the desire to use an id.. You prefer to blend in, stand on the side. In reality Poe’s law probably applies to you more than anyone else here. That’s why I pity you

Hi Anon. I never said that anyone needs to stay away from Catholicism to know the real Jesus. There are many saved people in the Catholic church and I have stated many times that they are my Christian brothers and sisters. What we have on many of these posts in the faith section are people who dont believe or if they do they still want to give people a hard time. "You arent who you say you are. You are nothing but a phony." We either love God and His Son or we dont. I feel strongly about my posts or I wouldnt leave them, and I am trying to help. I think some people here need to get out and do something besides give people a hard time. Sponsor a needy child. Take a walk for the hungry. It beats trying to beat up on someone all day. And before you tell me to sponsor a needy child I have been sponsoring kids for over 10 years and I currently sponsor two. Thanks.

What I said was you shot off your mouth without backing it up. Anonymous Sep 16 10:05PM. I would have thought someone of your intellect would have been able to figure that out. Next time I see if I can draw a picture for you.

Hi Anon. I took it the way you wrote it. "Gerard you need to have a conversation with Clay-he would assert Jews need to stay away from Catholicism to know the real Jesus and attain real salvation." I dont see anything in that statement about saying things without backing them up, even if that is how you see me. I take the statement the way it is written. And I disagree with it. It doesnt represent me or what I have stated here. Thanks.

One of the issues that the SSPX is going to want a clarification from the Magisterium of the Church is going to be a formal definition of what "Anti-Semitism" actually is. This will be particularly useful in stopping it from being a propaganda word.

Clay I thought you are up to facing all hard times with the help of the Lord. One can chew gum and walk at the same time. I can sponsor the needy, help the poor AND give you a hard time--although the last certainly is not my intention. And on many of these posts you certainly have been a Protestant chauvinist. Ravensfan suddenly feels besieged by me and sees it your way but you have argued ad infinitum on this blog about the virtues of straight Jesus worship versus any homage at all to the mother of the Lord and the communion seems to be your bugaboo. Saying the Catholics are your brothers in Christendom is not the same as accepting them their rituals and all--it is a case of what your mouth says your heart does not believe. The same with the guy who says that Father Williamson is not an anti semite but he wants all the Jews to be saved--tell that to the Jews--they understand anti-semitism when they see it. By the way anonymous Sept 17, 10.27 AM was posting to me not to you. And anonymous 10.27 AM, I still want to know what's to explain to you--you are the one who needs a pictorial representation--or you don't know the long rendezvous of the Catholic church with the Nazis--I wasn't just mouthing off--unless you are in denial and you are in total bended knee pose for the church this association is well documented. Previous popes have accepted this shameful history and have been trying to make amends.

Ok second anonymous I was responding to the first anonymous and their comment. I didnt realize that you were responding to him because your comment was right under mine. Why dont you guys use a screen name?

Anonymous 5:36 PM I haven't said the church did or didn't lay in an unholy bed with the Nazis as you put it. I pointed out the obvious fact that you made a lot of noise and failed to support it. I see once again instead of actually backing up what you said you decided to attack me. You must be a liberal. That's textbook liberal strategy attack the person raising the question rather than answer the question.

I disagree that the SSPX won't accept unambigous clarifications, all the Magisterium has to do is issue anathemas on the incorrect interpretations of Vatican II and the SSPX will accept the interpretations that are in line with previous Magisterial teaching. Nothing new was defined at Vatican II, a series of initiatives and ambiguous descriptions are what the documents consist of. The Pope himself, in Principles of Catholic Theology speculated that Vatican II may yet prove to be a complete waste of time. I'm sure he doesn't want it to be, but he at least is open to that possibility.

To the post-conciliar and conciliar mind, would this encyclical be anti-semitic?
To the reader who takes the time to view the link below, please note, the pope whose tone though harsh when speaking an inconvenient truth, takes pains to remind the episcopacy of Poland that, "...The Jews are not to be persecuted..." Is the reminding of the world of the danger of creating a false reality concerning,"...those whose color have changed...", an example of being insensitive? God Bless +Richard Williamson of speaking in the same manner as POPES previous!

www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14aquo.htm

"...Furthermore, by means of their particular practice of commerce, they amass a great store of money and then by an exorbitant rate of interest utterly destroy the wealth and inheritance of Christians. Even if they borrow money from Christians at heavy and undue interest with their synagogues as surety, it is obvious to anyone who thinks about it that they do so to employ the money borrowed from Christians in their commercial dealings; this enables them to make enough profit to pay the agreed interest and simultaneously increase their own store. At the same time, they gain as many defenders of their synagogues and themselves as they have creditors."
"On Jews and Christians Living in the Same Place" - Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV promulgated on June 14, 1751

Submitted by a former seminarian cleric of the Society of Saint Pius X

"The same with the guy who says that Father Williamson is not an anti semite but he wants all the Jews to be saved--tell that to the Jews--they understand anti-semitism when they see it."

Bishop Williamson does tell that to Jews. There is nothing anti-semitic in authentic Catholic teaching. The fact that the term "anti-semite" is thrown around as a political football doesn't change the reality. A rabbi (I think it was David Dalin) once said, " Anti-semite used to mean a person that didn't like Jews. Now it means a person that Jews don't like."

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About Matthew Hay Brown

Matthew Hay Brown writes and blogs about faith and values in public and private life for The Baltimore Sun. A former Washington correspondent for the newspaper, he has long written about the intersection of religion and politics. He has reported from Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America and the Middle East, traveling most recently to Syria and Jordan to write about the Iraqi refugee crisis.