I update the list, let me know if anything is wrong. Bold means I have the best circulating source, bold and italics means someone in this thread has it.

Original list updated:Adore Demos II: Leaked on Netphoria in 2007 as WAVs/FLACsQuiet And Other Songs: Leaked on Netphoria in 2007 as WAVs/FLACsAdore Demos I: CD-R on Ebay in 2000, bought and treed via CD-Rs
Gravity Demos: Given out by Billy in 2000, then treed by 34 as part of Triple Tree
Friends and Enemies of Modern Music: Given out by Billy in 2000, then treed by 34 as part of Triple TreeMachina Acoustic Demos: Billy 4 or 8-track master ---> analogM (billy) ---> CDR master (billy) given to Eric Weinrich -> whoever released itMashed Potatoes: < 10 CDs distributed by Billy. Eventually uploaded to the Hub in full as SHN; inferior partial copy from ANA circulates, owned by Simon Coyle
MCIS Demos I: RTS tree; (Billy's Home Demos bootleg is supposedly an inferior copy)MCIS Demos II: Appeared on Ebay in 2000, circulates as ANA-L > DAT0 > CDR-0 > SHNMCIS Demos III: ANA > DAT > CD-R (inferior version was part of RTS tree)Pisces Iscariot + Friends: ANA > SHN??
Reel Time Sessions: STU>DDC-1>CDR as part of RTS treeSequence IV: Courtney Love ANA > Onaric ANA? > John Mulhausen (applied NR) > CD-R / SHN

Courtney Love ANA > Onaric ANA? > Dave Asselin DAT (uncirculated)

Machina Premaster: Leaked on Netphoria in 2007TSP/Moon Demo: Best version is an ANA cassette from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing in 2009Virgin B-Sides Promo Tape: ANA cassette from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing in 2009MCIS Rough Mixes: ANA cassette from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing

Additions to the list:666 Tape: PRO > VID-2 > CD-RDrown 8-Track Demo: SPRCNothing Ever Changes: Ana-L>CDR-M>Cool-Edit>CDR-M (Asselin)>CDR-2>SHN
Gish Basement Tape: On Pisces Iscariot reissue. Also on Pumpkin Seeds bootleg, did this circulate in any other form? Do we have a copy direct from the ANA?

What about the TSP demo tape? That was on SPRC earlier this year, somehow I missed that. How does the quality compare to bmaromar's DAT?

CrabbMan, is that 666 tape recording you have the one listed above?

If we can get RTS and Triple tree rips then we can guarantee good lineage on almost all remaining tapes.

I update the list, let me know if anything is wrong. Bold means I have the best circulating source, bold and italics means someone in this thread has it.

Original list updated:Adore Demos II: Leaked on Netphoria in 2007 as WAVs/FLACsQuiet And Other Songs: Leaked on Netphoria in 2007 as WAVs/FLACsAdore Demos I: CD-R on Ebay in 2000, bought and treed via CD-Rs
Gravity Demos: Given out by Billy in 2000, then treed by 34 as part of Triple Tree
Friends and Enemies of Modern Music: Given out by Billy in 2000, then treed by 34 as part of Triple TreeMachina Acoustic Demos: Billy 4 or 8-track master ---> analogM (billy) ---> CDR master (billy) given to Eric Weinrich -> whoever released itMashed Potatoes: < 10 CDs distributed by Billy. Eventually uploaded to the Hub in full as SHN; inferior partial copy from ANA circulates, owned by Simon Coyle
MCIS Demos I: RTS tree; (Billy's Home Demos bootleg is supposedly an inferior copy)MCIS Demos II: Appeared on Ebay in 2000, circulates as ANA-L > DAT0 > CDR-0 > SHNMCIS Demos III: ANA > DAT > CD-R (inferior version was part of RTS tree)Pisces Iscariot + Friends: ANA > SHN??
Reel Time Sessions: STU>DDC-1>CDR as part of RTS treeSequence IV: Courtney Love ANA > Onaric ANA? > John Mulhausen (applied NR) > CD-R / SHN

Courtney Love ANA > Onaric ANA? > Dave Asselin DAT (uncirculated)

Machina Premaster: Leaked on Netphoria in 2007TSP/Moon Demo: Best version is a DAT from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing in 2009Virgin B-Sides Promo Tape: DAT from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing in 2009MCIS Rough Mixes: DAT from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing

Additions to the list:
666 Tape: STU > VID > CD-RDrown 8-Track Demo: SPRCNothing Ever Changes: Ana-L>CDR-M>Cool-Edit>CDR-M (Asselin)>CDR-2>SHN
Gish Basement Tape: On Pisces Iscariot reissue. Also on Pumpkin Seeds bootleg, did this circulate in any other form? Do we have a copy direct from the ANA?

What about the TSP demo tape? That was on SPRC earlier this year, somehow I missed that. How does the quality compare to bmaromar's DAT?

CrabbMan, is that 666 tape recording you have the one listed above?

If we can get RTS and Triple tree rips then we can guarantee good lineage on almost all remaining tapes.

What does everybody think about instead of labeling and grouping them by their traditional circulating names (ie Adore demos II or Friends & Enemies of Modern Music) we do so by their recording session? So FaEoMM would be labeled as Chicago Recording Company 1998-1999 and would not ******* tracks 10-14 which were tacked on to the tape.

And then there's the matter of all the tracks that were released in the re-issues. Does anyone have a problem with replacing the bootleg versions with the official releases? I don't know if people are against cleaned up versions in general, or just amateur noise reduction like (13). Just now listening to A/Ab/E/B/F#, I personally prefer the reissue version of that recording.

What does everybody think about instead of labeling and grouping them by their traditional circulating names (ie Adore demos II or Friends & Enemies of Modern Music) we do so by their recording session? So FaEoMM would be labeled as Chicago Recording Company 1998-1999 and would not ******* tracks 10-14 which were tacked on to the tape.

I think content should be grouped by the tapes / source they are from. Which is essentially how they currently are. I would stick with current community naming for these tapes as well so as not to confuse things even more. Perhaps we could incIude a text file giving the above information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrabbMan

And then there's the matter of all the tracks that were released in the re-issues. Does anyone have a problem with replacing the bootleg versions with the official releases? I don't know if people are against cleaned up versions in general, or just amateur noise reduction like (13). Just now listening to A/Ab/E/B/F#, I personally prefer the reissue version of that recording.

We shouldn't incIude versions which are commercially available, e.g. part of reissues. These are already readily available through other means, including actually buying it. They aren't falling out of circulation. I would think SPRC editions are an exception as these are not available for purchase.

It would go against the point of bootlegging these recordings if officially released reissue versions were spliced into the original bootleg source. If I'm listening to Gravity Demos for instance, I'd want to hear it as it sounds on that tape, not the cleaned up officially released version, which is readily available anyway.

On that note, I know there is this

Quote:

TSP/Moon Demo: Best version is a DAT from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing in 2009

But how about including rips of the original tapes? The consensus is that this is the "best version", but it's still not the same source as those original tapes.

I think content should be grouped by the tapes / source they are from. Which is essentially how they currently are. I would stick with current community naming for these tapes as well so as not to confuse things even more. Perhaps we could incIude a text file giving the above information.

Okay, I suppose upon reflection I mostly agree with keeping the original groupings, especially for the cohesive discs. And then keep most of the original community names, especially the descriptive ones. Something like "Adore Demos II" works fine, but maybe add something more descriptive to the cryptic titles, like "Sequence IV (MCIS Early Mix)" or "Sacred + Profane Tour Compilation" rather than Triple Tree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by magikarp99

We shouldn't incIude versions which are commercially available, e.g. part of reissues. These are already readily available through other means, including actually buying it. They aren't falling out of circulation. I would think SPRC editions are an exception as these are not available for purchase.

Ok, so don't splice the existing versions with cleaner versions from an official release? I guess I can agree with that. But maybe don't exclude something because it also exists on a official release. It's so annoying when a track has been removed because it makes an appearance on some official compilation or whatnot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by magikarp99

I think there is value in having the original versions of the tapes.

I'm not certain that I get what you're saying, but personally I'm more concerned with preserving and sharing the Smashing Pumpkins recording history than the Smashing Pumpkins trading community history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shallowed

It would go against the point of bootlegging these recordings if officially released reissue versions were spliced into the original bootleg source. If I'm listening to Gravity Demos for instance, I'd want to hear it as it sounds on that tape, not the cleaned up officially released version, which is readily available anyway.

I guess I'm not sure I understand what you see the point of bootlegging to be. I thought it was to put material into circulation that wasn't otherwise available. If it's out there, in a better version, it's lost its raison d'ętre.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shallowed

TSP/Moon Demo: Best version is a DAT from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing in 2009

But how about including rips of the original tapes? The consensus is that this is the "best version", but it's still not the same source as those original tapes.

If it's the same recording, then it goes back to the same original source. Just because one particular lineage of that recording was part of a group of tapes that the band sold oh so many years ago doesn't make it any better. That's just sentimentality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by magikarp99

Should we add in the Ignoffo tape, The Marked tapes, Zwan rough mixes and Spun?

The Marked tapes, Zwan? Yes. Anything that is of interest to current and potentially new Billy Corgan fans and is otherwise hard to find.

The Ignoffo tape? No, at least not in its orginal form. And that gets to the heart of I think my main disagreement with you guys on some stuff. back again to that no record 2x rule. I'd really prefer some consolidation by recording session. I mean, I don't feel the need to have 4 versions of the same recording because it was released on Mashed Potatoes, the Moon Demo tape, Ignoffo tape and the Reel Time Sessions.

Now, I'm not totally without sentiment. I've been around here for a while. I remember being super stoked when an mp3 snippet of For Martha came onto netphoria from a radio promo for their opening for the Stones at the Texas Motor Speedway. And every time there was a new leak of an old recording, whether for the first time or a major upgrade, it was exciting and momentous. But over the years it's created a somewhat chaotic pool of duplicate tracks from varying lineages.

Looking at the list we have, it is for the most part pretty well organized by recording session as is. But I am happy to do away with lower quality redundant tracks rather than keeping them in circulation just because they were part of a lineage that was special to the community at one time. I would have no problem blowing up the Ignoffo Tape, Mashed Potatoes, Moon Demo--of course keeping anything that isn't available elsewhere.

So, keeping intact or consolidating full recording sessions with the best available tracks, and a mega torrent collecting everything else that doesn't have a proper home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shallowed

If I'm listening to Gravity Demos for instance, I'd want to hear it as it sounds on that tape, not the cleaned up officially released version, which is readily available anyway.

I'm not gonna say you're wrong, but that's not my preference. I don't have a sentimentality for tape hiss (let me guess, you prefer vinyl because you enjoy the pops and crackles? j/k I'm teasing). I'd like to listen to all the Gravity tracks together, each one being from the best source available, rather than the incomplete selection of tracks that happened to fit on the tape that Billy put out into circulation in the year 2000. [Perhaps the best solution is just for me to create my own playlist that draws from the different sources. ]

Anyway, I get the sense that this is not the consensus of the community here, but I at least wanted to elaborate on my particular 'vision' or whatever. I'll gladly participate in helping create the torrents and seeding with whatever the group decides to do.

This, of course, wouldn't even be a discussion if Billy would go ahead and OK the creation of a digital Pumpkins archive, containing all of Billy's collection of his bands' recordings.

Everything has always been distributed by its source. If you want to mix sources to form entire recording sessions then I feel that is a compilation.

You don't like it when you download something from ZOMB and it's missing a track right? If we distribute bootlegs spliced together, to many people this is the same thing.

As for naming, I never intended to suggest that we distribute anything as Triple Tree or RTS Tree. I am only mentioning these as it stems back the original distribution of the tapes.

One of the appealing things about demos is how raw they are. Mastered versions are nice, but may be altered beyond just doing a high quality transfer. For this reason, there would still be appeal in having what is currently circulating, even if Billy suddenly released mastered tracks of the entire pumpkins archive. Let's say we splice mastered and raw tracks together to create complete sessions, then there would be inconsistencies in frequency response and noise which would be distracting.

Ok, so don't splice the existing versions with cleaner versions from an official release? I guess I can agree with that. But maybe don't exclude something because it also exists on a official release. It's so annoying when a track has been removed because it makes an appearance on some official compilation or whatnot.

i thought the whole point of setting up these torrents was to avoid the excluded tracks. just share the sets of demos as they originally appeared, without removing any "officially released" tracks.

grouping by recording session: i vote no.
replacing single tracks by an upgrade from a different source: i vote no too.

We should probably try and use/compare against original releases to make sure they are intact. So how was everything released? I believe I have the original releases for everything in bold.

Adore Demos II: Leaked on Netphoria in 2007 as WAVs/FLACs
Quiet And Other Songs: Leaked on Netphoria in 2007 as WAVs/FLACs
Adore Demos I: Bought off Ebay in 2000, how was this distributed?
Gravity Demos: Given out by Billy in 2000, then treed by 34 as part of Triple Tree
Friends and Enemies of Modern Music: Given out by Billy in 2000, then treed by 34 as part of Triple TreeMachina Acoustic Demos: Billy 4 or 8-track master ---> analogM (billy) ---> CDR master (billy) given to Eric Weinrich -> whoever released itMashed Potatoes: CDs distributed by Billy, then uploaded
MCIS Demos I: From a commerical bootleg????MCIS Demos II: Appeared on Ebay in 2000MCIS Demos III: ???? Multiple transfers of this circulate, originally treed with Reel Time Sessions?
Pisces Iscariot + Friends: ???? analogue cassette source
Reel Time Sessions: ????Sequence IV: ????Machina Premaster: Leaked on Netphoria in 2007TSP/Moon Demo: Best version is a DAT from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing in 2009Virgin B-Sides Promo Tape: DAT from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing in 2009MCIS Rough Mixes: DAT from Ebay, owned by bmaromar, distributed by rhinowing

Is that 666 audio a separate transfer to the DVD?

to clarify the tapes from bmaromar are cassettes -- in house virgin promos, but still cassettes

Crabbman, you're probably in a minority of people who would want to compile the "best versions" of all available recordings. If they're circulating in their original, untampered forms, you and anyone else are free to arrange them on your own computer however you see fit.

It has nothing to do with sentimentality (for me, at least) and more to do with inclusiveness and completeness.

Yeah, I see that the interest seems to be in preserving things how they were released to the community, so we'll go with that. Does this mean that we'd inclūd the Ignoffo Tape, even if it doesn't have anything that isn't elsewhere (still an open question to me).

Another thought I'm having is to have a specific directory structure that each of these releases having its own folder, such that we could have a torrent file for each one, but also a single larger torrent that references the entire collection. And theoretically you could add or replace any content and just update the main torrent. I wouldn't foresee that happening often, but at least we could be flexible for when that holy grail finally leaks.

Is there actually any holy grail still out there? Or was everything known eventually leaked out?

is there nothing unique on the ignoffo tape?
what about the three tracks that were added as bonus? "i fall" isn't available anywhere else, is it? or would these not be included, as they're not actually on that tape?

The advantage of one big torrent is that it's easy for anyone who wants it all. Or easy for anyone that wants just some. When I want an album from a band, I often download the torrent for their discography and just select the folder(s) that i want. But the nice thing is it doesn't have to be either or. We can also have torrent files for the individual releases, as long as you keep the directory structure as is.

That way, people can search for an individual release and find it. Or download the Smashing Pumpkins Demos Megatorrent.

But yeah, things like those extra tracks on the Ignoffo tape; I wouldn't want to download the whole disc just to get a track. That, or the extras on FaEoMM, PI+friends, etc that make me want to have a collection of one-offs that don't belong, or even better a collection of all the tracks from WPC Sr. home studios. But really, why is it more appropriate for a track like "I Fall" to be included as a bonus on the Ignoffo tape instead of a bonus on Nothing Ever Changes? I'm not saying everything needs to be upended, but is there not room to do a little housekeeping to put some minor stuff in order?

Do what What.CD does. For those who want everything, provide a ZIP file of all the torrents. If you don't want to add each torrent one by one, most torrent clients these days allow you to add entire directories of torrents at once.

If you want to download a single track from any one torrent, you can instruct your torrent client to only download the files you want from a torrent. No need to download the entire Ignoffo tape if you only want one track. Of course, this isn't generally encouraged, as the health of the torrent is impacted if people pick and choose what they want.

This seems to be a direct rip from one of numerous tapes Billy Corgan made back in 88-90 for his friends, or people in the music business in Chicago. There are at least a few copies of tapes like this floating around.

Roughly these tapes follow the same pattern: a number of tracks from the electric RTS session, plus sometimes a few fillers. Tapes Corgan used were mostly 90 min (or longer) Maxell XLII-S [Japan], or brandless clear case tapes with white hand written labels affixed - in the case of the promotional tapes. Mike Potential's DAT has the full Reel Time sessions.

GISH
Interesting to see: the RTS songs on these tapes seem to be titled 'Gish' very early on. It seems correct to date these tapes to 1989, maybe early 1990, but i'd go for 89. Thus, these songs were even then going under the banner of 'Gish' already.

On the 'Gish/Moon' tape the 'Gish' part seems to consist of:
I Am One
Bury Me
Daydream
Not Worth Asking
Honeyspider
Rhinoceros
Snap
Love
c'Mon
East
Since the b-side is titled 'Moon' and follows the tracklisting for the self-released demotape.
On 'Ignoffo' we find exactly the same songs, in identical running order.
The 1989-1990 demo promo 'Gish Basement Tape' cuts this list to only the first 5 songs.

REEL TIME
All tapes, apart from Mike Potential's re-sequenced alphabetical one, use the same running order for most of the RTS songs. Therefore we might conclude this sequence is the desired order for these songs. On three tapes the first 10/11 songs appear in the exact same order, are from the same source and are cut exactly the same. It seems Corgan had a [master?]-tape which he kept on using, which already included this format. It might be a long shot to conclude this order is also the order in which the Reel Time Session songs were recorded. It seems rather accurate though to conlcude the band's preferred order for these songs is reflected in the running order we find on these homemade tapes. 'Cinnamon Girl' seems to have been used as a filler rather than a song reflecting the 'Gish'batch of songs, since sometimes it was present, sometimes it was left off.

As for the running order of these songs, on various sources, this stays identical. With again the exception of Mike Potential's DAT these songs seem to be presented in the band's desired format on the 'Moon' sequence. When songs pop up on other locations than the 'release version' of 'Moon' the same sequence is used.

B-SIDE FILLER
Corgan used to pack his tapes with music. Often cutting songs at the end of the tape-sides. 'Cinnamon Girl' is one of the assumed filler tracks, mostly present on side A. On the b-side of these tapes we find two different recordings.
1) 881005
2) 'Moon'songs and various filler tracks

@ 1):
The recording of 881005 which had been floating around for a long time now was of a very high generation. Billy's copy was of an early generation, but with some defects. For CR-05 professional cleaning up and remastering was done. Still, there are two glitches in N+E.
There is a second source for this show. It's a splice between two available audience tapes; from the same source [?], compiling the complete show. This low gen version does not have the warble/glitch Corgan's master for CR-05 has.

So basically there are two good versions of 881005 out there. One from CR-05 which sounds great, because of the professional work that has been done on the recording. And another spliced source, without the use of CR-05 and without the glitches.

On Corgan's homemade tape an incomplete version of 881005 is found.

From 881005 [BC's CR-05 tape?]:

There It Goes
She
My Eternity
Bleed
Spiteface

On 'Ignoffo'aka 'Gish/881005' another Nothing & Everything is used. This is the version which was used in the RTS tree. I believe date&location for this recording are still unknown. But we can say for sure it's NOT the 881005 version. So in 1989, when compiling these homemade tapes Corgan left Nothing & Everything off the tapes and replaced it with another version. However, on CR-05 he did use his own, defective, version of the song.

@ 2):
Various filler tracks were used by BC.

On 'Ignoffo'aka 'Gish/881005' we find:
- Jennifer Ever [acoustic/click track version] > also used on the RTS tree
- Under Your Spell [1988 studio demo] > also found on Mashed Potatoes
- There It Goes [1988 studio demo] > also found on Mashed Potatoes. The Ignoffo version is cut as per tape end, on MP it's the full song
- Cinnamon Girl [Reel Time session] > present on the RTS tree
- Time Has Come Today [881120, Last Exit, Chicago, IL] > audience recording
- My Dahlia [1989 studio demo] > also found on Mashed Potatoes, NOT the Light Into Dark version

On 'Gish/Moon' we find:
- Cinnamon Girl [RTS]
- I Fall [very early demo]
- Times Has Come Today [881120]

I Fall is being distributed now as a demo from 1988. This could very well be the case. However, I clearly remember Dave Asselin's assertion Corgan has told him James and he recorded I Fall in late 1987 in his father's studio, using a drummachine. Corgan produced this from the top of his head. Whatever you might think of this, still, Asselin got I Fall the day before we went to the listening party for MACHINA where Corgan gave him 880810 Avalon, with I Fall [live]. They discussed the song then and that's where Corgan came up with the date of 1987. The song was listed in Asselin's bootlist as xx.xx.87. Maybe there is a possibility someone can shed some light on this issue. Personally I tink a recording in 1987 isn't that far off. The lone known source for this song is a handwritten homemade Corgan tape entitled 'Gish/Moon', to be dated 1989.

25 TRACKS O'PUMPKINS AKA PSYCHO VIDEO
Some filler tracks from the Ignoffo-torrent were taken from this 'infamous' video of various live performances around 88-89. Full audio of this video has been spread to some extent, the video itself has yet to spread into wider circulation, I believe.

From this video tape the following audio is currently in wide circulation:
- My Dahlia [reahearsel] > found on Ignoffo torrent
- The Crystal Ship [The Doors cover] > found on Ignoffo torrent
- She [live] > unknown location&date, found on the 3 Songs O'Rarities leak
- My Eternity [live 88119, PCA] > found on the 3 Songs O'Rarities leak

Apprently Corgan made this video tape for an early fan/girlfriend. The full tracklisting for this video includes:

tracks 14~23 are from 891031, Metro, Chicago, IL [14-18 Set 1/19-23 Set 2]

At the after show party @ Metro after the last performance, this video was shown, amongst others on a big screen onstage. Both audio and video quality are quite bad. Still, we'd you expect from a homedubbed video from 1989?

OTHER NON-RTS SONGS
The 'Ignoffo' tape also includes three songs not from RTS, or 25 O'Pumpkins video.

This Jennifer Ever seems to be exclusive to the 'Ignoffo' tape. Source is identical to the one used in the RTS tree; the 'Ignoffo' tape that is.

Both Under Your Spell and There It Goes are studio demo's. These versions did appear on Mashed Potatoes. Datewise I'd conclude we are looking for a session in 1988. Possibly Corgan Sr.'s home recording studio. SPFC.org lists a session which might have included a drummachine in 1988.

However Under Your Spell clearly uses a live drummer. I Fall and There It Goes share some similar sounds and both use a drummachine. So now we have Corgan's claim to 1987 for I Fall and There It Goes studio w/ drummachine [?], plus Under Your Spell with live drumming. Not from the same session, this might make Under Your Spell a demorecording from around mid-88 with Jimmy in the band and There It Goes from early-88. Possibly recorded with I Fall, which would not match up to Corgan's assertion of the date of 1987. Some confusion here...

he was?
i think he wrote one or two articles for sp.com when they were letting people write content (somewhere between 2007 and now). i didn't think he was ever the webmaster.

i don't know where it's from. found it on netphoria.

i guess he just did some proper research and comparing after the ignoffo tape came out.
if i'm not mistaken, he's got quite a lot of old tapes. i even believe he once found a tape that appeared to be the only remaining source of one or more songs (i fall?), and he gave it back to bc.
that's just my memory talking though. not necessarily true...