Wednesday, December 5, 2007

MOP Comments (Page 8)

Over the last 3 years I have been trying to get into contact with someone from my Mosaic past. She had worked in a ministry that I was apart of. I called those whom I thought she may still be connected with but nobody had her phone number or email. This past year I gave up hope of getting a hold of her and just prayed that she was doing well.

My reasons for wanting to talk with her was to ask her to forgive me. I was apart of pushing her out of the church. The elders and Erwin wanted her out and asked me to be apart of that process. They justified themselves and callously moved on it. I believe they had other motives on why they wanted her out. The ministry she served in was not apart of Erwin's big plans. I didn't see it then but it seems all to clear now.

I allowed that to happen. I participated. I was guilty. I knew what I was doing was wrong but I was confused. I was foolish. I allowed those above me to abuse their power to treat someone badly. Not only was she to be removed but the way it was done was awful. Over the years I felt the guilt of being apart of something so clearly wrong. The way she was dealt with was so ugly. She was treated like an outcast. I wondered what damage we had done to her. Would she walk away from the Church (big C)? Would she stop serving in the areas she was so gifted in? Would she walk away from God?

The good news is she contacted me about a month ago. She had found MOP and started reading. She said she had to take some time to absorb what she was reading, there was a lot to think and pray about. When we first spoke I could hear a little caution in her voice, she was careful. Since then we have had a couple of good conversations getting to know each other again. She is not only walking with God but she has continued to pursue her desires to serve those God has placed a burden on her heart. We spoke about what had happened and she was so gracious to me. She explained how difficult it had been, how confusing it was but how God had brought the right people with the right words to free her from the lies that were told to her. This reminds me of one of Satan's most powerful weapons, confusion. She was able to overcome that.

There is freedom in forgiveness. Sometimes forgiveness is a process as sometimes the pain throbs and consequences linger. I believe this person whom I hurt went through a process to get to the point where she forgave as Jesus would forgive. Although I am so glad that she has forgive me, more importantly, for her sake she does not hold it and allow it to grow into bitterness. My hope and prayer is none of those whom have been hurt will hold their hurt to one day bud into bitterness. Rather, to start the process to forgive.

206 comments:

"My hope and prayer is none of those whom have been hurt will hold their hurt to one day bud into bitterness. Rather, to start the process to forgive."

And that process begins to happen when we let the Light come into the darkness of the hurt and betrayal many of us have experienced in our affiliation with Mosaic. We have attempted, over the years, to confront those who have inflicted themselves upon us. But, they deny and obfuscate the facts with their half truths.

It is always difficult to talk openly, publicly about things that have been done in secret, yet, that is how Truth prevails.

First of all, it's amazing how most of the posts on this website are "Anonymous". It's somewhat cowardly to stay in the shadows and pick things apart, don't you think? If you have something to say, and you stand behind your convictions, then come out into the light and say it!

It is not my intention to antagonize, so I will leave that comment for you all to interpret how you see fit.

I am a new Christian, baptized in August. I had major reservations about Christianity (or any religion for that matter), and when I started attending Mosaic services back in March was VERY wary and skeptical. However, I can safely say that I was drawn in by Erwin's message, and the overall friendliness/faithfulness of all of the staff I met then and since. I have not once been deceived or coerced, and all of the promises made to me have been kept. I of course cannot speak for anyone else's experience, but I wanted to pipe in that mine has been nothing short of great this past 8 months or so.

Here is what troubles me (Being new to the faith, please excuse my lack of theological knowledge): There seems to be a need amongst Christians as a whole to demean, destroy, and judge other Christians who do not hold to their own belief system. Did Jesus not say "Judge not, lest ye be judged", and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."? Again, I do not mean to antagonize, just use this site as an example of Christians wasting their time whining, complaining, and bickering instead of actually talking and working things out. How do you expect non-believers to believe when all they see is a divided church? How do you expect anyone outside to see anything but total hypocrisy? You preach love, forgiveness, and the like, yet you type away on your computers and call in to radio shows to belittle other Christians who just might have a different take on things than you do. Guess what? We're all human, and thus have different takes and opinions on what the Scriptures are telling us. The Bible has been translated into a multitude of different versions, languages, and that only serves to add to the differences. Yet, here we Christians (humans) are, only concerned about the differences between us. We take lone bible verses and twist them to our own use, to prove our own selfish points that we are correct, instead of spreading a message of hope and deliverance that comes with Jesus Christ. Shame on us all.If you took a second to look, you would all see that Satan's work is already halfway done. Remember the mantra (albeit cliche) "United we stand, divided we fall". That is all I have to say. Thank you.

Jeff,Just for your info. most of the Mopsters don't go by annonymous. If you read the blogs you'll see that most of the Mosaic post come via annonymous. The reason is that Erwin doesn't want his people to write on this blog. So be warned. You won't see Eric or Scoot R., Ricky or David A. using their "real" names anytime soon. You may want to ask Erwin what he's afraid of? You may want to ask him why he hasn't addressed the offenses he's been part of and that have been addressed here. And don't shame me. Shame you, you've read the truth and you've decided to stay aleep. And If you haven't go back and read all the blogs and articles regarding this man, you need to do that and then come back and dialogue. Because you are welcome here. MH

I do apologize for my inaccuracy; I only took a quick snapshot of the posts in this forum. I did peruse some of the blogs as well. As I said, my intention was NOT to antagonize.

However, I did not shame you or your group as a whole. I can't. I said several times that I cannot speak for you all, that I was just voicing my experience. I would be severely out of line to call you all into question, due to the simple fact that I was not there. In addition, it is obviously not my place to judge anyone. I apologize if you took it that way.

Back to the shame part of it. Please go back and read carefully; this was not an attack on you, rather a view of Christianity as a whole from my perspective. In giving that viewpoint, I was careful to provide the disclaimer that I am new to the faith (and in saying so, anyone can glean that I am new to this situation as well).

I would also like to say that I am not trying to understand the situation from anyone's viewpoint, or trying to fight a battle for or against anyone. If I tried, I would be in way over my head, as I am not equipped to handle the true gravity of the situation that seems to be at hand.

It follows then that I am not on anyone's side in this. In giving my commentary, I was voicing my wish that you all would come together and just get all this out in the open and resolved so that the true mission of Christ can be served, with the added effect of being an example to Christians (and non-believers as well) of what it truly means to follow Christ.

Thank you for your response, and again my apologies for any unintended chagrin.

Jeff,Thank you for your response. I was too harsh. We've been writing for almost a year now and at times (Maybe not you) we get post from new Mosaic people who don't know Erwin well. And I know I have used sarcasm in the past and inappropriately. So I hope you can forgive me and I promise to do better next time. I'm sure the other Moppers would help you with any questions you might have. I don't think any of us want this site to loose focus. And sometimes I forget that. The mission statement speaks for itself. And some of us use annonymously, maybe we need to have a good discussion regarding this topic. I'm just concerned we won't hear from people like EB and DA. Erwin truly would like to ignore this site and pretend everything is great. He really doesn't want staff to write (Ask a staff member-that should be a warning light for you). Annonymous comments allow his staff to write, but maybe its time for them to own up to their comments. God Bless and thank you for your post MH

Thank you for your forthrightness. Your input and opinion are very valuable here. All of us are very tired of this, none of us wanted it to go this long or deep. Yet, here we are, almost a year into something that should have been resolved nearly 10 years ago and behind closed doors. I only write here because I truly believe Mosaic will not reach its full potential until some of this is straightened out. God does not allow us to sweep past wrongs under the carpet. Yes, He wants us to never judge, but God also says in His word, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, deceitful are the kisses of an enemy." He also gives numerous examples in His word where his followers are suppose to speak out. MOP is not here to judge Erwin or Mosaic, we are attempting to call them to a point of dealing with some past decisions, e.g. the way the Thom Wolf and Carol Davis were let go, etc...

Ironically, I recall (as a very new believer at Brady) how a church member, that was also heading up the construction at Brady at that time, sent out a letter to all of the members of the church. This letter complained how he was let go and removed from his position. He felt as if he was wronged and not given a voice to explain his actions, so he sent a letter to the entire church directory. I remember sitting up in the baptismal room, before my baptism, having read that letter that day, I prayed and cried because what I thought was the "perfect religion" now seemed tarnished.

Looking back, that was probably one of the biggest turning points of my walk with Jesus. He gave me a peace that night that it didn't matter if that letter was right or wrong, He still loved us all and everything was going to be just fine.

You're right, there is far more that Mosaic and Erwin are doing right then wrong. Just the same, that does not mean some past choices do not need to be addressed. Please continue to pray for us all as we seek His face and guidance in these matters.

I don't post "anonymously", I may sometimes forget to log in (in which case, the post shows up with "anonymous" in the title) but I always put my name at the end of the post so people will know it's me.

First of all, I would like to welcome you as my new brother-in-the-Lord. It is always a pleasure to meet a new christian.

Secondly, I'll admit that there have been times when this site has gotten a little "heated" but unfortunately, that's to be expected given the deep wounds that have been suffered by many who post here.

For myself, I have made a conscience choice to shy away from the more emotionally charged subject areas of theology and personal hurts as much as possible. I'm not always successful, but I try.

As a member of Mosaic, I hope you will read my blog, SOLID FOODS, and begin to ask your leadership for the answers to the questions I have raised regarding the questionable business ties between Erwin McManus's AWAKEN, the brand new non-profit corporation AWAKEN HUMANITY and MOSAIC, L.A.

These are not "debatable", subjective questions but rather questions regarding objective points of State and Federal law.

Surely any leader who speaks on the topics of "integrity", "accountability" and "authenticity" as Erwin Raphael McManus has done would welcome a member of his own congregation to look into such matters for themselves.

"What a powerful message about generosity, sacrifice, and serving. It was wonderful to hear how God worked in Erwin’s life as he committed in faith and provided a sacrifice for the church’s sake. Thanks Erwin, your vision and passion for Los Angeles is an inspiration to all of us.I was convicted and now have a renewed desire to give, sacrifice, and serve for the sake of the people in our city.I pray that we who say we “got it” will continually demonstrate and “do it”."

you may have not spelled it right. 755,000 pages come up, many explaining what the title is. It was not created by Erwin.

Do you mean if I spell it incorrectly then only Erwin's name comes up? lol

Actually I spelled it like this, "cultural architect". And yes, hundreds of thousands of links come up that find pages with the words "cultural" and "architect" in them, but that does not tell me what the meaning of the phrase is.

I realize now why your website is called "Mosaic of Pain". I came to Mosaic several years ago in severe emotional and spiritual pain. Now several years later, I have recently left Mosaic in intense emotional and spiritual pain caused by different so called "leaders" at Mosaic (e.g. Small Group leaders, etc.). These "leaders" by their careless, thoughtless, selfish and uncaring actions have inflicted intense pain upon me. Instead of acting like followers of Christ interested in the welfare of their brothers & sisters, they have acted selfishly to satisfy their own worldly desires and acted in their own self-benefit. They could have been much more up front with me and been mature and caring but they acted like selfish rotten kids to me. I came to Mosaic in pain and I have recently left in pain multiplied several times over.

From attending Mosaic over 5 years and witnessing the spiritual mediocrity of Erwin's messages and Erwin's books, my understanding of the meaning of a "cultural architect" in terms of Mosaic is a "secular designer of spiritual demise and spiritual chaos" for fellow Christians.

Erwin's "barbarians" are poorly trained if trained at all to wage spiritual battle against Satanic evil and the growing spiritual darkness which pervades our modern day secular culture.

To confront spiritual evil and to defend against spiritual evil of this world, pastors and leaders must train their church's members to put on the "armor of God" and to know how to use the armor of God.Erwin's wild barbarians do not use the armor of God and the wildly rush out to embrace the worldly ways of our secular culture.

Those barbarians of Mosaic who try to confront Satan are easily cut down by his trained soldiers.Mosaic I have found is not a good place to wage any type of meaningful "spiritual defense" against the ever growing powers of Satan in our secular society. Erwin is a "cultural architect" who is leading his followers into Abaddon.

Maybe someone from the Mosaic camp (leadership) can define "cultural architect" for us.

If there is no substantive response to this request, maybe we can all just assume that the label is nothing more than something made up to sound important and viable to those whom don't know otherwise.

I think real growth at Mosaic will come when the leadership stands up to Erwin and encourages him to make right the wrongs of the past and to look at discipleship. Maybe Erwin should of listened to Frank a long time ago and not laughed him off. MH

Having spent over 4 years recently regularly attending Mosaic and being involved with the Church's activities and Small Groups, I must say that Erwin is "has been" as a "Cultural Architect" or whatever he calls himself. The only way Erwin is able to connect with Generation X and Generation Y followers at his so called "church" is to appeal to their already ingrained selfish, "me first" worldly desires and secular values. Most of Mosaic's members and attendees are "unchurched" that is they have no background in knowledge of the Bible, aka Bible literacy; or knowledge of the Christian religion and the teachings of God. They are really "barbarians". Erwin with his one-dimensional teachings and books seems to want to keep these young Christians 18-28 years of age as "spiritual Barbarians" by not giving them any solid Bible teaching. Erwin as the Head Pastor should be trying to grow these young believers into mature Christians but he is completely failing to do this. Most of them leave Mosaic within 1 to 3 years without having gained any spiritual maturity.Pastor Ricky to be honest is a very poor speaker and his knowledge of the Bible is quite limited. By his own admission he only completed one year of seminary and then dropped out.The only hope for Mosaic is for Eric Bryant to take over leadership of Mosaic and retire Ricky and Erwin as its "cultural Architects".Eric at most times has some solid Biblical teaching as a speaker unlike Ricky and Erwin. Eric also appears to be much more sincere and caring then those two so called "leaders".

The only hope for Mosaic is for Eric Bryant to take over leadership of Mosaic and retire Ricky and Erwin as its "cultural Architects".Eric at most times has some solid Biblical teaching as a speaker unlike Ricky and Erwin. Eric also appears to be much more sincere and caring then those two so called "leaders".

I've never met Eric Bryant and I haven't read his book but I have read the things he's posted to the internet on his blog:Eric Bryant.Orghttp://ericbryant.org/blog/

. . . and I have the emails he sent to me in response to my questions about "Awaken." I was not impressed by any of his writings.

Also, until Eric provides me with a copy of the letter of intent to apply for tax exempt status to the IRS regarding the newly formed corporation, "Awaken Humanity", I'm afraid I can't agree with the opinion that he is "more sincere and caring." In his email to me dated April 27, 2007 Eric wrote:

Awaken is a registered 501c3 under the name Awaken Humanity. We just received our paperwork recently. The Secretary of State should be updating their website soon. This summer we are registering for tax exempt status. Currently, Awaken is still a subsidiary of Mosaic until we finish this paperwork. The elders began this paperwork process awhile back, but we have a few more loose ends to tie up. Your dad oversaw the Mosaic finances until Dec. 2006 and the Awaken finances until Dec. 2005.

[I put in the bold print to show the inconsistency in his statements. By law, you CANNOT claim to be a 501c3 until the IRS makes that determination.]

I have already commented on the other errors contained in the above quote at my own blog, Solid Foodshttp://solidfoods.blogspot.com/2007/05/wake-up-call-to-erwin-mcmanus-and_05.html

Just a reminder to anyone who's interested -

I requested a copy of Awaken’s 501(c)(3) and its related documentation on April 17, 2007 using my full first and last (married) name. I am still waiting for some type of acknowledgement of my request.

The IRS penalties for failure to comply with public disclosure requirements can be found at:

ERic is just a product of Mosaic. He probably would have done better elsewhere. But since he decided to stay at Mosaic. He is guilty by his association. He has backed Erwin at every turn and could have been a "barbarian", but chose not too. Thank God its never too late.

Brothers & Sisters, You are entitled to your opinions of Eric but I believe him to be a good man. If you read his first published book yourself, you can see that it is Bible-based; the book also shows Eric to be caring, sincere and compassionate.

You should not condemn Eric under the principle of "Guilt by Association". Christ was condemned by the company that he kept: tax collectors, zealots, prostitutes, and other "sinners".

I an not making a Christ analogy to Eric here but "guilt by association" can be very flawed tool to evaluate a man. Eric does associate with very flawed men like Ricky and Erwin. Ricky and Erwin have shown their colors. I do not believe Eric's ship flies the same colors as these two pirates, that is, Ricky and Erwin.

I repeat that I believe Eric is the last and best hope to save Mosaic and turn its ship around. Spiritual demise awaits Mosaic if it continues on its chartered course. The Titanic thought it was invincible and unsinkable until it hit unseen icebergs. Many were lost due to the Captain's incompetence.The same applies to many other churches across the U.S. Their ships appear physically and financially sound and unstoppable. But morally and spiritually they will suffer spiritual demise if their leadership is not replaced.

Erwin and Ricky must be replaced as Mosaic's Captains in order to save the hundreds of souls aboard their vessel Mosaic. Eric must be appointed the new Captain in order to save the Titanic.

Eric Bryant is listed as the Agent for Service of Process for Awaken Humanity, a corporate entity registered at the California Business Portal. You can verify this by visiting:

http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/list.html

In the search box for corporations, type in "Awaken." This will direct you to a list that includes:

Awaken Humanity

Awaken

*Awaken Center for Creativity

*Awaken International

All of these "Awakens" have ties to Erwin McManus. The two with stars currently have their corporate status under suspension with the state of California.

Eric Bryant is vice president of "Awaken" and Erwin McManus is president and founder of "Awaken."

The problem is: which one (or more?) of these "Awakens" are they referring to?

In my emails to Eric Bryant I asked some highly specific questions in order to clear up some of the confusion surrounding all these "Awakens" but Eric's answers were primarily evasive and contradictory. He did not even attempt to answer my most important questions.

Now I ask you, given the large amount of money that is being solicited by Awaken Humanity (they have raised their goal for 2008 to $150,000)that is somehowbeing "filtered" through Mosaic, wouldn't you like to know if this money is being handled appropriately?

Since Eric Bryant is both executive pastor of Mosaic and Vice President of "Awaken", wouldn't he be the logical person to contact with any questions about the relationship between these two organizations?

If Eric Bryant is either unable or unwilling to answer such questions, wouldn't that raise a red flag in your own mind?

According to Eric, Awaken Humanity was supposed to be applying for tax exempt status (separate recognition as a 501c3 charity organization) from the IRS back in the summer of 2007. So tell me, why does the Mosaic newsletter for December '07 now list Awaken Humanity in such as way as to give the appearance that it is merely another one of the church's ministries?

This doesn't make any sense.

Anonymous, all I know is that Eric Bryant told me,"This summer we are registering for tax exempt status."

Whether Mosaic is a "spiritual Titanic" or not, all of her leadership should prayerfully consider their part in supporting the wrong choices made by Erwin over the years; simply by their doing nothing about them they ARE responsible.

While we're on the topic of the Titanic, recent discoveries have shown that it did not sink because it struck an iceberg (it was designed to survive that). The Titanic sunk due to the fact that the LEADERS, who managed her being built, chose to look the other way when it was brought to their attention that the builder was saving money by using cheaper, inferior rivets.

All your comments are insightful but Mosaic is a "Titanic" that is already sinking spiritually and morally.

I have been at Mosaic for over 3 years and I have seen a lot of morally shocking and spiritually shocking things among its Small Group leaders and its Small groups and its activity group leadership. However, these things are not shocking in the secular world, they are shocking because I am seeing them with equally immoral power within the Church of Jesus Christ: greed, fornication, drugs, superficiality, materialism, divorce, alcoholism, cheating, selfishness, irreverence, etc. and the list goes on and on.

Erwin may not know what is going on right now because he is in his own little dream world where the Gospel of Erwin M. is preached instead of the Gospel of Christ our Savior. Someone should throw some cold iceberg water on Pope Erwin and tell him that many good and dedicated people are leaving Mosaic now for other local churches because they sense a sinking ship.

The question is not whether Mosaic the Titanic will sink, but instead, the question how many of the ship's crew and the ship's passengers can be saved spiritually and morally from destruction ??

With the real Titanic, the ocean liner only had enough lifeboats to save a few hundred persons of out the thousands on board. I have no doubt that Captain Erwin and Lt. Ricky will save a boat just for themselves and will row away from the sinking ship and ignore the cries of their fellow crew members and of their drowning passengers. However, God has divine justice for spiritual traitors and spiritual cowards. How many of the Mosaic crew and Mosaic Passengers can be saved from their sinking Titanic ??

The world now knows that there is something wrong going on at Mosaic. SBC has been contacted, besides others in the community. MOP has helped a lot of people from going under. And the one's who choose to stay and keep quiet, well can someon pass the Koo... Well you know... Matt 5:24

I believe most MOP members would like to see the past wrongs resolved. I don't think anyone wishes for a sinking ship. Its difficult to see what's happening at Mosaic. Pride is ugly. There is a lot of healing and joy when we make ourselves vulnerable to God and our brothers and sisters that we've hurt. And then there's discipline. And then there is difficult difficult discipline. But our God will be glorified through all of this. Praise be to God.

The people at Mosaic should all be notified of your great and revealing website. I used to be with Mosaic but then I realized it was a "ship of fools". The people at Mosaic should see Erwin for what he really is. He is not really a Christian pastor but really a Public Relations guru primarily interested in marketing his own books, his own image, his own alleged success, and his own apostate brand of the Gospel. He is slick. Many are fooled by his charisma and good speaking. In the end he is just a midget version of Joel Osteen though.

Read 2nd Timothy Chapter 3 and realize Mosaic and Erwin have the form of godliness but they deny the power of God and the Holy Spirit.

Read Revelation Chapter 3, verses 14-17, Mosaic and Erwin are neither hot nor cold but spiritually lukewarm so God will spit them out of His mouth. And Mosaic and Erwin believe they are rich and have need of nothing, but they are really wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked when God examines them spiritually.

I go to Mosaic and someone told me about your website recently. I was skeptical when I reviewed your site a few weeks ago....but the more I read, the more I see is actually true when I compare it to what I see going on at Mosaic and when I compare notes with my friends still at Mosaic and my friends who have left Mosaic for other churches. Many have gone to Lake Ave. Church in Pasadena or Christian Assembly in Eagle Rock, others to smaller local churches, some to Calvary Chapel. I think that MOP is correct that Erwin is charlatan and an apostate minister. I think someone in the Mosaic leadership should have the courage to step up and demand his immediate resignation; either that or stage an internal coup of his corrupt regime.

Thanks for your MOP website. You have made me see the light regarding Erwin.

The more I think about it, the more Erwin reminds me of King Herod mentioned in Acts 12:21-25. King Herod in his arrogance and pride accepted the applause of his foolish people who said he had the voice of a god and not of a man. An Angel of God then struck Herod down because he did not give God the glory but kept all the glory for himself.

Erwin is just like King Herod, he demands all the glory and gives none to God and Christ. All the books, CD's, DVD's for sale at the Mosaic tables are by Erwin and about King Erwin. There are no Bibles for sale or for free at the Mosaic book/media table at any of the Mosaic branch locations. All the books and media available are about King Erwin and by King Erwin.Erwin (a creation of God) should give at least a little glory to God, the creator of Heaven and Earth and yes, the creator of the human being Erwin also.

I just left Mosaic after being there about 18 months. I found the teaching there to be rather repetitive and uninstructive like a tepid soup instead of a rich solid meal with meat, vegetables and bread and carbs.Instead of being "original" Erwin teachings are "unoriginal" and verge on sacrireligious and non-Biblical.

Erwin's teachings and his New Age philosophy that he handfeeds his MOSAIC members are just big signs on the Highway to the End Times.

The Bible warns us that, among other things, one of the signs of the last days will be the existence of false prophets, false apostles, false teachers, and even lying wonders.

I have never seen more false teaching and greater biblical illiteracy among Christians than I am seeing today. I am amazed at how many believers are lacking in the very basics of Christian theology. Hosea's cry for his day rings true for ours as well: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge . . . " (Hosea 4:6). How we need the Word of God. How we need to know the Word of God.

The only way we will ever know the true from the false is by having a good knowledge of the Scripture. Jesus commended the awakened believers in the church of Philadelphia who were keeping His Word (see Revelation 3:8). He also commended this church for their perseverance and promised to keep them from the hour of trial (see verse 10).

In addition to false teaching, another sign of the last days will be that "some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1). In the days ahead, there will be trials and temptations. We need to remember that our adversary, the devil, is out there trying to bring us down.

Erwin is an example of the "created" refusing to worship his Creator aka God, aka Jesus Christ. It was predicted in the New Testament that in the latter days, the creations of God, human beings, would be foolish and evil, and exchange the worship of their Creator for the false worship of the created, that is mankind would worship humanity (secular humanism).

Instead of preaching the doctrine of living an "original life", Erwin should be preaching living a life that submits to the Will of God and living a life that follows the Word of God (the Bible) and a life where it is important to read and understand the Bible. Erwin is an irreverent fool as he preaches living an "original life" without any guidance from the Bible or any reference to the Will of God.

What Erwin should really be preaching and teaching the young, impressionable and Bibically illiterate "barbarian" members of Mosaic, is that we should live "a life following the Word and the Will of our original Creator, the Almighty God, the originator and Creator of all things, Maker of the Heavens and the Earth."

Instead, General Erwin leads his wild "barbarians" and Biblically illiterate "tribes" into battle against disciplined, experienced legions of demons.

It would be a fair battle if the Devil played fair and the Devil also had barbarian troops but this is not the case. The Devil's troops know how to fight like a real army of regular, professional soldiers. Without the armor of God and the discipline of God, Erwin's barbarians will suffer devastating defeat along with the rest of the irregular forces of the Emergent Church movement.

Erwin gave a Sunday sermon about 6 months ago where he said the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) fired him from the SBC staff because the SBC thought he was "too successful"...... talk about self-serving statements.....most people are fired for incompetence, laziness, insubordination, failure to follow rules, fraud, etc.

Apparently, the sheep at Mosaic took Erwin's self-serving statement here hook, line and sinker as no one else that I spoke to at Mosaic, thought there was anything wrong with it. I am sure the SBC has another version of the events regarding his termination.

Jesus is the shepherd and we the members of the Church of Jesus Christ are the "sheep". Sometimes the "sheep" are led astray by a false shepherd or a wolf.

I am not sure whether Mosaic's leader is a wolf or a false shepherd or both. Anyway, the sheep are defenseless against him at Mosaic. Someone in leadership step up and save them. I see little difference between "sheep" and "barbarians" and "tribes". The latter are mindless uneducated, nondiscerning individuals or groups of such individuals that follow a barbaric leader.

It is no wonder that the Church of Jesus Christ in the Western World (Western Europe & North America) is fading into the twillight of oblivion when such barbaric leaders take advantage of the sheep of God.

Erwin gave a Sunday sermon about 6 months ago where he said the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) fired him from the SBC staff because the SBC thought he was "too successful"...

For the record; Erwin's "job" with the Southern Baptist Convention was to join churches then slowly weed out the old leadership to replace them with new leaders that the SBC liked better. Not surprised he was overly zealous at this and let go for being so.

Isn't this pretty much what he has been doing at Brady (oooops!) I mean Mosiac over the past 15 years?

Only he replaced leaders that the SBC was happy with and put in leaders that would follow him.

I was listening to Crosstalk. The topic was the Rethink Conference that is going on next week. Erwin McManus is one of the speakers, along with a hodgepodge of other people, including New Agers, emergents, celebrities, and porn industry CEOs (Rupert Murdoch). Not to mention it's at the Crystal Cathedral, where Robert Schuller weekly touts his humanistic, New Age, heretical mumbo-jumbo. Ingrid interviews one of the organizers of the conference and points him to the gospel. Then, another guest comes on who has written books about his involvement in the occult and how certain speakers are "preaching" the same things. Very informative what this Erwin McManus is involved in. If anyone is interested, the program can be downloaded at:

The interviewer asks a spokesperson of the Rethink conference that was held at the Crystal Cathedral, "Was Dr. Schuller aware that a class teaching the occult, in the 80's, was conducted at his church?"

This spokes person for the Rethink conference then asks her if she has asked Dr. Schuller that question directly. The interviewer goes on to explain that her organization and herself have attempted many times to get to Dr. Schuller, but he is impossible to get to and the individuals keeping her and her researchers away would not address the questions. The spokesperson for the Rethink conference replied, "So you have not spoken directly with Dr. Schuller."

"I just checked the official SBC website, http://www.sbc.net/and Erwin McManus still shows up on their database.

Yvonne W."

Yes, he shows up as an ordained Southern Baptist minister on the SBC website. However, he was originally employed (before coming to Los Angeles) by the SBC Home Mission Board - that was what McManus was referring to when he boasted about being "fired". The SBC used him to go in and clear out older leadership at SBC churches.

Today, he is only affiliated with the SBC as a minister of one of their churches. Thus, he is autonomous from the SBC - well, until he himself becomes "older" that is...

Do you have any specific information on what Erwin did for the SBC Home Missions board?

I've read the comments listed here and I know that he was somehow involved in "revitalizing" churches (which I've been told meant clearing out old, "stale" leadership) but do you know what was Erwin's official job title?

What were the dates of his employment in this job?

Which churches did he "help" in this manner?

I ask these questions because it's very hard to know exactly what Erwin was doing before he came to the Church on Brady. He doesn't seem to have much of a traceable job history.

This just seems so odd.

Another odd thing that fits in with these questions is, "What was Global Impact?" The bio on Erwin McManus given on the list of the "50 Most Influential Christians in America" for 2007 put out by CROnline says that Erwin McManus is the founder of Global Impact http://www.thechurchreport.com/mag_article.php?mid=875&mname=January

Bethel University identiies Erwin McManus as the president of Global Impact.

Erwin McManus worked for the SBC Home Mission Board for 2-3 years in the late 80's into the early 90's. He pastored an SBC church in Dallas, Texas for a few years prior to that. It is a bit difficult to clarify what his job tittle would have been with the SBC Home Mission Board, since that type of work is counter to the relationship the SBC is suppose to have with its "autonomous" churches. One might say is was somewhat clandestine.

Yes, I fully understand the meaning of the use of that word:

clan·des·tine /klænˈdɛstɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[klan-des-tin] –adjectivecharacterized by, done in, or executed with secrecy or concealment, esp. for purposes of subversion or deception; private or surreptitious: e.g. Their clandestine meetings went undiscovered for two years.

As to the job history and job experience of Erwin before he was working in Dallas, Texas and before he worked for the Southern Baptist Convention ("SBC"), you are just spinning your wheels finding out about Erwin. Erwin is the master of spin, marketing and Public Relations.

Excuse me, let me take that back, next to the Devil and his demon henchmen, Erwin is a master of Spin and PR. The Devil may appear to humans as an "Angel of Light" and even believers can be fooled by the Devil's false imagery, spin, advertising and PR. Believers must be discerning in these End Times about who they follow and what churches they attend as the Devil is prowling about like a "roaring lion" nowadays.

Erwin has covered his tracks pretty well so you will find little or nothing before he came to the Church on Brady. Even the few Mosaic members left from the days of the Church on Brady know little or nothing of his job experience and his employment history before he came to East Los Angeles.

"Even the few Mosaic members left from the days of the Church on Brady know little or nothing of his job experience and his employment history before he came to East Los Angeles."

That does not mean there is anything sordid or wrong in his past. However, what WE do know of him clearly shows a pattern of disrespect and a lack of appreciation for older Christians, and a narcissism unparalleled in the modern church of today.

Dan Kimball, one of Mosaic's speakers at tue upcoming Awaken conference, had this to say: "Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits. That’s what makes facing this issue all the harder." Is this the official position on homosexuality at Mosaic or just a contribution from one of the keynote speakers at a Mosaic gathering?

"Which is probably a fairly accurate statement. Nor is heterosexual attraction just a "choice". Otherwise it would not be a feeling of "attraction"

Wrong. Kimball, in context, was downplaying sin as a root cause. He is giving a pass to homosexual sin in oreder to be "compassionate." Campolo has made this same mistake in the past. This is the kind of thing that has crept unnoticed by some but it is turning into a monster.

Maybe we should all live and let live. In the end, both the MOP members and the Mosaic dead-enders pray to God for victory over one another. In the end, it is God's Will that prevails, God does what is best for His Purposes and His Divine Plan not ours. Sometimes evil ends up doing the will of God; sometimes good ends up doing the Will of God.

Maybe the MOP members and the hard-core Evangelicals and the Emergent Church and Mosaic dead-enders should all meet at the foot of the Cross and just look at the blood of Christ and His broken, tortured body and make peace there somehow.

In these last dark days, the forces of Christianity and the Church are already too divided, too weak and too few already, for everyone to be fighting amongst each other. The forces of darkness already outnumber us and they are very united and very strong.

If there are problems with Mosaic's theology then that can be addressed maybe on another site? The topic here are the abuses of Erwin McManus towards previous and current members service, giving and trust. Sure, that happens when a church and its leadership have bad theology/doctrine, but in this case it is very clear that the issue causing a "Mosaic of Pain" is due to "mentality".

To be honest, the times grow very dark spiritually, morally, politically and economically in our great nation, the USA.

The Church of Jesus Christ in the U.S.A. is divided, weak and declining in numbers while the armies of the Evil One in America grow stronger and stronger every day.

The armies of the Lord of Lies and the Lord of the Flies, will overrun and is already conquering the irregular / barbarian forces of the Church, aka the Emergent Church movement churches , such as Mosaic, etc. These barbarian troops of the Church are basically roadkill. Either they are crushed easily due to their lack of Bible education, lack of the armor of God, or they are completely infiltrated by Fifth column forces of the Evil One.

The liberal Church dominations are next after the Emergent Church movement .... They will also be easily overcome by the forces of the Serpent. These denominations (e.g. Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, etc.) are already falling apart, dividing along lines of apostasy versus faithful believers.

Once the barabrians are crushed, the Devil will crush the liberal denominations as their troops are divided and weak.I will not comment here on the Catholic Church.

The last line of defense for the Church in America still holds for the most part although one can detect the edges are beginning to fray and are not holding against the onslaught of the Evil One's probing forces: This last line is formed of the largely non-denominational conservative to moderate Evangelical Churches (excluding the apostates of the Prosperity Gospel like J. Osteen, etc.).

I pray and hope that this line of defense holds (e.g. Calvary Chapel, etc.) along with the Charismatic Churches. It may be that soon even this last line of defense will disintegrate in a few years in North America.

It is 2008! Denominations do not really matter much anymore in this climate of moral chaos, New Age apostasy, explosion in Cults (read the book "Kingdom of the Cults"), false leaders, Light beer Christianity aka Christianity Lite (e.g. Joel Osteen, Erwin McManus, etc.).

You can tell that denominations don't really matter much anymore when the Southern Baptist Convention lets the New Age/Apostate likes of Erwin M. to run amuk with his Christianity "Lite Beer" gospel aka Gospel of Erwin "Herod" McManus.

Mosaic has become the Kingdom of Herod which was destroyed by God via Roman legions in 70 A.D. Herod was not a real Jew but King Herod ruled over the Jews in Israel.

McManus rules over the Christians at Mosaic but he is not a true believer/true Christian. He is an Edomite and a false prophet, a wolf in sheep's clothing.

His deception extends to the MOSAIC website where his AWAKEN seminar deceptively advertises "RALPH WINTER" as one of the AWAKEN speakers.

Mosaic rents its offices and its auditorium for its Sunday services from William Carey University "WCU" which was founded by the famous missionary and Christian visionary named "DR. RALPH WINTER".

ERwin uses a deception on his MOSAIC website to make it look like his AWAKEN seminar has the blessing of the true Christian leader DR. RALPH WINTER who founded the WCU.

Ralph Winter is a Christian who is a big player in Hollywood. He is the producer for many Hollywood hits including Xmen and the Fantastic Four. He is pretty famous among "the Hollywood set". The quality of the postings on this website has deteriorated rapidly. People who use to take MOP seriously will now think it's a joke. The guy who posted 2-3 comments back about "the Lord of the Lies and the Lord of the Flies" has watched the Lord of the Rings a few too many times. That guy scares me...

I agree it's too easy to draw the wrong conclusion that the Ralph Winter on the speaking panel for the upcoming Awaken 2008 conference is Dr. Ralph Winter of the William Carey Institute. I believe it would have helpful to have some sort of disclaimer regarding this.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it is deceptive since the Awaken Conference doesn't use the title "Dr." but still, it is confusing for the uninformed.

I have no idea if these two men are related.

Having said all this, I'd like to offer my opinion that we get back to the topic at hand and stop being distracted by a lot of rambling rhetoric.

I have a question for those at Mosaic. How is Awaken 2008 being marketed? Its sounds like a great showcase for those interested in the Emerging Church and New Age thinking. Mark Driscoll, Mark Batterson, Bill Hybels, Lee Strobel, Dan Kimball, Nancy Beach. I guess Erwin figured, why hide it now.

You should not diss Anonymous like that. Be cool and chill out, Frodo.....

Frodo, you don't seem to know the Bible that well as it clearly says the "undiscerning" will be fooled by false prophets and false leaders right before Christ returns; read Matthew 24, Frodo.

Truth is a battle Frodo. The battle for Truth, that is Biblical Truth, the Word of God, the Bible, will intensify right before Christ returns and before the Tribulation, Frodo....

Frodo, try to read the Bible Frodo, try the Epistles, try Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, try Revelation and try the book of Daniel for starters. It is said that God's people may be destroyed for lack of knowledge, knowledge of the Bible.

I have never heard of Ralph Winter, the "big Hollywood Producer". Any one who produces comic book character movies like the X-men and the Fantastic Four surely lacks imagination but then again the whole entertainment industry in the US lacks imagination and creativity as we see from the likes of comic book movies, SAW IV, Cloverfield, Rambo IV, etc., etc.

I would be impressed if Ralph Winter, the big producer, had done great films like "The Nativity", "The Passion of the Christ", "Bella" etc. --- great movies that move the human spirit to think of God and of the love of God. But comic book movies. I read those comic books in elementary school.

We seeing a dumbing down of the secular culture at the same time we are seeing a dumbing down of Christian theology in Churches all across America.

Maximizing the human potential and the Prosperity Gospel do not equal the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is like feeding soup to a starving man at a concentration camp. The Church in America is dying for the true Gospel of Christ, a full meal that will leave it satisfied and full in spirit not slick emptiness of the PR gimmicks and New Age psychology and and materialism schemes....

Hi. I respect your views. However, regarding the deception and confusion on the MOSAIC website regarding the two different "Ralph Winter" individuals, that is important because deception and deceptive theology go hand in hand with poor treatment/deceptive treatment of Mosaic members (voluntary staff/unpaid staff) and Mosaic paid staff.

When MOSAIC enters into deception regarding the legendary founder of William Carey University "Dr. Ralph Winter" as opposed to a dime a dozen Hollywood movie Producer of comic book movies with the same name, that is important.

I know people with day jobs who produce movies in Hollywood; they are "B" movies for domestic and foreign distribution. They are trash movies; 10 or 20 years from now no one will remember the trivial movies of the big producer Ralph Winter or the trivial trash movies of hundreds of others in "Hollywood".

However, 100 years from now, Christians all over the globe will remember Dr. Ralph Winter who was voted by Time Magazine to be one of top 50 most influential Christian leaders in the 20th Century along with Rev. Billy Graham, Pope John Paul, etc., etc.

In 100 years who will remember men who watered down the Gospel of Jesus Christ and turned in into theological New Age mush (e.g. J. Osteen, Erwin M., and other apostates). Actually I should not even put J. Osteen and Erwin M. in the same paragraph or same page as one another.

J. Osteen is a major league Apostate with his own nationwide Apoostate TV show.....while Erwin M. is a minor League apostate who barely even made it into the minors....the Mosaic Alliance is a bush league sham.....

Erwin M. has scrapped by in his sham scam by taking over the Church on Brady by coup and then using funds raised from members from the Church on Brady to buy a Chino Hills Church which now has become part of his Mosaic "Collective" aka the "BORG Collective" where Erwin speak/Erwin's cult brainwashing theology is preached to his fellow BORG and all are assimilated into the "BORG".

Erwin M. is a self-deluded fool who thinks he is famous because he associates himself with allegedly famous Hollywood crowd people like the "big producer" Ralph Winter. Erwin M. is narcissistic jester with delusions/hallucinations of grandeur. He seeks to pervert the Gospel of Christ for his own worldly gain and seeks to preach worldly values to the young impressionable college students and post-college crowd at MOSAIC.

You would consider Lee Strobel, Nancy Beach and Bill Hybels "emerging church and new age" thinkers? Wow.

Yes. I agree there no Erwin McManus or Dan Kimball. Its not too difficult to understand. They are either Emerging or Not. Why don't you ask them at the Awaken Conference. And why is emerging such a bad thing. Mosaic is an emerging church. I may think its nutty, but sounds like you've bought into it. Its interesting how you didn't mention Dan Kimball or Mark Batterson, also speakers at Awaken 2008. Because they're way out there aren't they? Yikes

“You can hardly find a book more engrossing from page to page - because you rarely meet a man with as fascinating a story to tell. Loaded with profound insight as well as constant interest, McManus clearly has a lot to offer church leaders today, presented out of the raw, real context of actual ministry.”- Ralph D. Winter - Founder of the U.S. Center for World Mission.

I thank God that Mark Driscoll has distanced himself from the Emerging Church movement. He's even started outing them. His last sermon deals with Armenian and Calvinism. Specificly predestination. A good sign to see if your church is Emerging is if its Armenian. Check it out. Very Meaty. Look at last Sunday's Podcast

It is true that financial misdealings and financial deception plague the Mosaic Alliance, Mosaic and its other Mosaic spider web entities. With spiritual deception come other deceptions such as moral/sexual deceptions, theological deceptions/distortions, etc.

As with a spider web, if you shake one strand of the web then the whole web shakes. The same goes for the MOSAIC spider web of DECEPTION. The strands of deception / misdeeds all connect with one another: financial, moral, sexual, theological, spiritual, treatment of Mosaic paid staff / unpaid staff, etc.

If you shake the Web enough, then the Spider will come out to see what is happening. 99 percent of the time, the Spider will stay in the shadows and say nothing but if you shake the Spider Web enough the Spider will expose himself to the rays of sunlight and you will see his deception, etc.

As for Dr. Ralph Winter allegedly endorsing that Book by Erwin M., you must realize that Dr. Winter is under financial pressure to keep his William Carey University ("WCU") financially afloat as it is run mostly by charitable donations and renting out University Buildings to local churches, etc.Basically, Dr. Winter was forced to endorse the Apostate Book of Erwin.

When the big Charismatic Church called Harvest Rock stopped renting the big auditorium at the WCU, then Dr. Winter needed a new tenant for the WCU. He was forced to rent to the APostate MOsaic Church because the WCU needed the rent money in 2003. Mosiac and its apostate leadership (Elders and Pastors) were kicked out of the San Gabriel High School auditorium in 2003 by the public school district.

The other big auditorium at the WCU is rented to a conservative Charismatic Church called "Soverign Grace" which is theologically sound.

Harvest Rock Church moved on to buy part of the Ambassador College campus in Pasadena for several million dollars. Harvest Rock's senior Pastor is well known in the Charismatic Churches all over the world. Compared to Harvest Rock, Mosaic is a midget church. The charismatic churches are exploding in growth in the hundreds of millions of new Christians in Latin America,Africa, Asia, etc.

Mosaic is not part of any larger church movement like Harvest Rock. Mosaic is an orphan church of the Southern Baptist Convention. If Mosaic was not renting space from the WCU, Dr. Winter would never endorse the Apostate/New Age writings of Erwin.

Whoever is the person who suggested that Mosaic is a spiderweb filled various forms of immorality has some deep seeded animosity towards Erwin and the Mosaic church and staff. You have absolutely no proof of all the things you are suggesting so why plant those seeds in the minds of those who read this blog? You have absolutely nothing of value to contribute to this blog except rumors of inproprieties that you can't back up. What was the purpose of your posting? If there is a web that needs to be shaken, start with your own! Furthermore, do you even know Dr. Winter? How could you even suggest that he endorsed Erwin's book because he was desperate for a tenant? You are not only slandering the name of a man YOU don't even know, but you are spreading rumors that have no substantial proof. What you are doing is wrong and evil. I hope you have the courage to examine your own heart. As much as many of us have been hurt at Mosaic, let's stick to the facts. Am I the only one who sees that this is wrong?!?!

Jenn

P.S. some people have been really hurt at mosaic and they are trying to heal and forgive. Postings like yours add salt to the wound and make it even more difficult to forgive and move on. I hope you will retract your comments and ask for forgiveness

Thank you for saying it. I agree, this is not the place to make sweeping accusations. In one breath the "Anonymous" poster puts Ralph Winter up on a pedestal, in the other he condemns him for giving Erwin's book a positive review.

More importantly, this site is NOT about name calling or seeking to attack anyone at Mosaic, or it as a church. We want to see that church moving forward with God. This site is to call Mosaic's leaders out concerning past wrongs that have been ignored.

On January 21st 2007 Robie Sortino wrote his first... On January 21st 2007 Robie Sortino wrote his first blog entry entitled "Mosaic of Silent Sorrows" A year has gone by and Erwin McManus and his leadership team have still not made right the wrongs that have been shared on this blog and others. We still wait. MH

FYI to all, I deleted a comment from an Anonymous poster 2 days ago (1/24/07). The post was in reference to Jenn's comments above. The comment was odd and I felt it should not go up without the writers name attached considering it's content.

It actually reads, "...the church had been plateaued for 15 years and in decline for a few years." Just the same, I don't recall the church in "plateau" anywhere through the 80's and I don't think it was ever in "decline" through the 90's. Maybe if one looked at a graph and only followed that then they could surmise such. However, The Church on Brady sent out so many for church starts, and like many other churches it had an ebb and flow of members through the 80's that it might have appeared to be in "plateau" on PAPER.

Interesting how in one breath, "...a church with a great history in urban Los Angeles." can have that said about it, but was in "plateau" during that great history.

Much spin my friends, much spin. I know because I attended from 1983 into the 90's, and The Church on Brady was far from anything but vibrant and growing during that time.

Yvonne,Read your new article. I agree with you that the Bro. Tom situation was not handled well. My only critique is that I hold the elders including Erwin responsible how they botched the dismissal. And yes Erwin was the lead pastor, it was convenient to get the elders to let him go. And you got to admit having Bro. Tom, a true teaching pastor, overshadowing you is tough. Erwin in no Bro. Tom. Agreed? Also your zealotry to get the facts out only shows that if you keep looking your going to find a lot of dirt. And in Erwin's case a lot of lies. Again why doesn't anyone at Mosaic ask these tough questions. Who holds this man accountable? Who's being a brother to him and asking him tough questions? Unbelievable

Last Sunday, January 27th, Erwin spoke about the "supernatural" in his Sunday message. He said he almost pee'd (urinated) in his pants when he allegedly was confronted by a "demon-possessed man" at a worship service some years ago.

Erwin went on to talk about the "supernatural" citing some instances of witchcraft, sorcery, etc. in the Bible. However, Erwin drew no Biblical conclusions about the Supernatural in his Sunday message to his young audience.

I must ask myself why does Erwin as a Pastor bring up the topic of the "supernatural" to his young followers of college age and graduate school age if he is not able to or willing to give them any Biblical guidance on this very vital topic. In the last 10 years, multiple TV shows and motion picture films have come out about ghosts, demons, New Age reincarnation, the supernatural, etc. etc. The entertainment industry in the U.S. seems to have hit upon a popular topic with young Americans who seek something more spiritual and meaningful for their materialistic lives.

I think Erwin has a duty as a Christian Pastor not just to "AWAKEN" his audience and his members to this vital topic of the "Supernatural" but to give Bible-based instruction and guidance also.

Without Bible-based conclusions and guidance, it is just like the blind leading the blind as Christ once said. As Christians we must not only recognize the supernatural but be spiritually discerning between good and evil spirits; between true leaders and false leaders; between spirits from God and spirits from the Devil, etc.

Yeah that talk by Erwin about almost urinating in his pants and the demon-possessed man was kind of bizarre.

What do you think of that bizarre book by Erwin's brother Pastor Alex McManus called "Making the World Human Again: Jesus' Quest to Save the Future from Religion" that is allegedly going to be released by Zondervan Press in October 2008.See the website of Alex M.

Did Jesus Christ really become human and come to live among us 2000 years ago to save the "Future from Religion" ?? The last time I checked, Jesus came to suffer and die for the sins of mankind on a Cross; that is to save the human race from sin and eternal death.

Alex and Erwin appear to have the Gospel of Jesus Christ all twisted around to say Jesus came to save the human race from religion. Is religion the human race's enemy ?? Or is the enemy of mankind, the sins of all men and all women, eternal death which results from sin/the sinful nature of humans, and the Father of Lies, the Devil.Men and women who distort the Gospel of Jesus Christ are actually helping the Devil who is Father of all Lies.

Thanks Yvonne for the reference. Cris may consider posting article. Erwin still has a disdain for Christians. We are all fortunate that he is here to make it all clear for us.

"I hope and pray that Erwin Mc Manus, Robert Schuller, and Chuck Colson, along with many of the other speakers will re-think the direction in which they are heading. I pray they will start proclaiming the gospel according to the Scriptures. I pray they will begin to warn about the many unbiblical ideas that are driving the unsuspecting towards an apostate church" --Roger Oakland

"You cannot actually go to Mosaic because it does not have a building. It did have one - actually the high school made famous by Stand and Deliver, the story of exceptional teacher Jaime Escalante - but Mosaic now meets in two places: the auditorium of San Gabriel High School on Sunday mornings and, on Sunday evenings- of all places for Baptists to gather - the Los Angeles Entertainment Center, a nightclub once owned by the rock star Prince.”

Just to clarify for those who don't live in the Los Angeles area, the high school featured in the film "Stand and Deliver" is GARFIELD HIGH SCHOOL.

First of all, why is there no mention of the Church on Brady?

Secondly, did Mosaic EVER meet at Garfield High School? We used to meet a Schurr High School in Montebello but Garfield???

On Sunday, Feb. 3, 2008, Erwin M. in his Sunday message stated that Mosaic was experiencing some "financial difficulties" in raising money to fund needed repairs and improvements to the Mosaic-owned church in Chino Hills, California. A printed Mosaic flyer from January 2008 states the Mosaic 2008 budget is $4,464,386 of which 22 percent goes to operations/departmental expenses aka pastors' salaries and employee benefits, etc. The same printed Mosaic flyer lists 2007 Mosaic budgeted expenses at $3,977,782 and 2007 giving at Mosaic at $3,306,088.

The same printed flyer states Mosaic's new Campus Inland aka Chino Hills church was acquired by Mosaic (60,000 square foot facility) and Mosaic paid off a $650,000 interest only loan on this same Chino Hills church facility.

The same printed flyer says that Mosaic in 2007 brought on 19 new paid staff bring the total staff at Mosaic to 42.

Let us examine a timeline of events:A printed Mosaic church program dated January 12, 2003states that Mosaic will close its escrow on the Sale of the Church on Brady property in East Los Angeles by January 20, 2003. The same printed church program from January 2003 states that in February 2003 that Mosaic's leaders will meet with Elysian Valley Neighborhood Council members to discuss Mosaic's proposed purchase of a commercial building in City of L.A. near Elysian Park for conversion to a Mosaic Church location.Later in 2003, the City of Los Angeles and the Elysian Valley Neighborhood Council reject Erwin M.'s bid to buy that Los Angeles commercial property.In mid-2004, Mosaic is kicked out of the San Gabriel High School auditorium by the public School District.In September 2004, Mosaic begins renting an auditorium in Pasadena at William Carey University.

Some 750,000 religious nonprofit organizations in the United States are required by law to share their Form 990 tax returns with anyone who asks to see them. Form 990's reveal income , and also information such as the compensation of key executives.

Recently, it has been reported in both secular and Christian magazines that the popular Emergent Church leaders Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller have both refused to disclose financial information to the public. Somethings smells rotten here.

Mosaic never met at Garfield High School. Erwin is probably "mistaken" about the "Stand and Deliver" reference. After all, Erwin is not originally from Los Angeles, he is an import. Like so many in the past who have come in thinking they know what this city needs.

The only One that really KNOWS is Jesus. All others think they know.

Guess what? It doesn't matter what movie or rock star was there before, is Jesus there now!?

""You cannot actually go to Mosaic because it does not have a building."

It did. However, due to poor management of resources "Pastor" Erwin McManus decided to sell it.

Anyone who knows anything about business and how to handle assets understands you NEVER sell until you have somewhere else to go!

Sure, Erwin has spun it to look like this was intentional, hardly. Mosaic could have rented the Brady property and used that income to subsidize their tithed income. But McManus wanted to believe the impossible. Looks like he did.

The Brady property has increased in value by a minimum of double over what they sold it off for. Mosaic has no where to call home and openly are admitting they are in financial trouble.

What a waste of twenty years worth of ministry and church building commitment.

Shame on you Erwin McManus and Mosaic. You have been given much and lost even more.

Later in 2003, the City of Los Angeles and the Elysian Valley Neighborhood Council reject Erwin M.'s bid to buy that Los Angeles commercial property.In mid-2004, Mosaic is kicked out of the San Gabriel High School auditorium by the public School District.

Are you sure the city officials from Los Angeles and Elysian Park "rejected" the bid to buy that property? (Is this the Bimbo's Bakery you are referring to?)

"Rejected" is a strong word. This would mean that the city officials found some reason to "reject" Mosaic's bid. Was the bid too low? Were there other problems with the bid?

It seems odd that city officials would turn down a legitimate bid when all they are really concerned about is getting a good purchase price.

Since you don't give an address for where this piece of property was located it might be that there were zoning problems associated with converting a commercial property into a church facility.

Also, Mosaic WAS NOT "kicked out" of San Gabriel High School. Mosaic had to move out because the school was scheduled for renovations and was no longer available for rent.

Anonymous, I would still like to see those flyers you have so please contact me.

CP: Do you have predictions for trends that will occur inside the church in the new year, such as multi-site or satellite broadcast?

McManus: I’ve been doing multi-site since 1988 so for me this is not a new thing. I’ve been part of multiple sites for 20 years, but back then people just thought I was out of my mind. But now they think it is the new way, so it’s never fun doing it so early because everyone thinks you’re just crazy.

Erwin has been doing "multi-site" since 1988?

Shouldn't he have revealed this bit of information at the 1997 "Believe the Impossible" fundraisng campaign? I think a lot of people would have liked to have known this BEFOFE they gave sacrificially towards the purchase of a new building.

Wasn't the whole point of owning a building so that we could all meet "in ONE location?"

Were the elders wasting their time making bids on properties all over the southland too?

You are all right about Erwin. What he did to the members of the Church on Brady was not cool. Erwin should chill out with his lies, etc. People have a right to diss Erwin because he is not being straight with people.

The financial mess and financial misdealings at Mosaic correspond with the Apostasy hitting all over the U.S. with the rise of the apostate Emergent Church movement.

Both Christian magazines and secular magazines report that many major religious non-profit organizations who call themselves churches have refused U.S. Senator Charles Grassley's request for financial data.

Televangelist Creflo Dollar of Atlanta -based World Changers Church International has refused Sen. Grassley's request for financial data. Benny Hinn Ministries has also refused to provide financial data to Sen. Grassley. Hinn has been known to pay for private jets and $1,000 per night hotel suites for himself and his family while on the road at his "crusades". Joyce Meyer Ministries would not cooperate with Sen. Grassley's investigation into fraud and misdealings until bad publicity hit their religious non-profitorganization.

Like Creflo Dollar and Benny Hinn, I do not expect Erwin M. and his gang of apostate elders will cooperate with any financial probe into Mosaic's finances. However, it is the law that the provide those Form 990 tax returns with "anyone who asks to see them".

A refusal to do so would likely trigger an IRS audit(s) of Mosaic, etc. Christ came to bring light into the world but most of mankind as it is said in the Bible will seek the darkness not the light.

Yvonne,What's more disturbing about Erwin's statement is that he's been doing multiple sites since 1988. Well of course that's not accurate. You have to be very careful with Erwin, he's a genius with the half truths. Anyone who know about Erwin's beginnings at Brady/Mosaic knows he didn't start the Sun. night services off the Brady campus until the late 90's. Now did he do it before Brady/Mosaic who knows. Now his comment about being crazy, well there is no arguement here. Looking at past interviews and comments by Erwin one gets the sense that Erwin has the gift of exaggeration. The disturbing thing is that his people continue to go to his trauff.

"I sense a fragmentation among Christians in terms of their political affiliation and alliances. I think in the next two, three, four years there will be likely equal number of people who identify themselves as Christians who will be democrats as are Christians who are Republicans. Over the last 20 years it has been pretty monolithic. I had someone a month ago tell me at a campaign lunch that you can’t be a Christian and a Democrat. I think that that view is dissipating very, very fast. If we are not careful there will be a day in a couple of years where people will say you can’t be a Christian and a Republican. I don’t think the political stronghold that the Republican Party had on Christians is going to last very long. I think everything will be up for grabs and people are going to rethink everything."

--Erwin M.

Well Erwin what part of being a democrat do you think fits with Christianity? Is it the millions of babies that have been aborted since 1973? Or maybe its the attack on traditional marriage with the desire from the left to embrace gay marriage. Maybe you think Christianity identifies with the belief of raising taxes or a weak military. I know your screaming to say I'm a Christian and I'm a liberal. Just say it. Quit being cute and double speaking like you do, as the example above proves. Maybe we better start "rethinking" what your all about? A MOP MEMBER

Cris,The above quote was taken from the interview Erwin gave to Christian Post: http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080122/30917_2_Interview:_Cultural_Architect_on_Rethinking_Church_Methods,_Not_Gospel.htm

Disturbing article. Read it in its entirety. I don't understand how he gets away with half the things he says? Do you? And Cris regarding your question, I don't know if I understand entirely what he's trying to get at. And that's Erwin's way. He lives in the realm of "fuzzyness". And to answer my question, that's how he gets away with the things he says. Go figureA MOP MEMBER

What does the world think (both secular and Christian) when they see really "irreverent" plays and "irreverent" theater going on at Erwin's New Age / Apostate MOSAIC Christmas shows ??

For the Mosaic December 2007 Christmas show, Mosaic featured a comic act with a "flying Jesus baby" where the Christ child flies around the Mosaic stage and falls on the floor , etc. and the Mosaic audience gets a big cheap laugh out of this.

Is this what Christmas is all about ?? To get a cheap irreverent laugh at the expense of Jesus Christ ,the Son of God who came to Earth to take the form of a lowly human and die a criminal's death by crucifixion on a wooden Cross with Roman Spikes driven into his hands and feet; and a Roman spear pierced into his side ??

If this is the Mosaic idea of Christmas then God help us when Mosaic says it is the cutting edge of the post-modern American Church ......cutting edge of spiritual doom some would say ?? Mosaic even puts this flying baby video on the Internet so the whole world can see their disdain for the Christ child.

Mosaic's Erwin M. is a true apostate. One need only read the transcript from the CNN show on May 9, 2007 featuring a short statement by this apostate pastor for the "Anderson Cooper" show on "Church and STate".

Erwin the New Age prophet says the following according to CNN:

PASTOR ERWIN MCMANUS, MOSAIC CHURCH: "It's not about how much of the bible you read. It is about allowing God to have a conversation with you, and you engage in an intimate relationship with him.And let me challenge you. If you want to begin to become the person God created you to be, begin to have a continuous awareness of God."

Erwin is an apostate fool and a jester. God speaks to us humans through the Bible, the Word of God.That is the main and primary way to learn God's way, God' will, God's nature. Erwin urges the follower of Christ and the seekers of Christ away from the Bible, the Word of God; away from the Gospels, away from the New Testament; away from the Old Testament; away from the Epistles of the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter.

Despite Erwin's twisted reasoning and New Age doublespeak, God powerfully urges us, whether we be followers of Christ or seekers of Christ, to continually and passionately read His Word, the Bible, precisely in order to build an intimate relationship with Him, a continual awareness of Him, and in order to have a conversation with Him.

Erwin McManus of Mosaic is speaking for many in the emergent movement when he says,"Theology just doesn't matter to us. We just want to love people and show them Jesus." (McManus, 2004)McManus, E. (2004). Conference: The Barbarian Way of Evangelism. Seattle, 15-16 September.

Erwin, I agree that loving people is what it’s all about. And I understand that theology doesn't matter to you. But what happens when you plug these people in a church? Shouldn't you be bible relevant? Jim Jones loved people. So did Joseph Smith. People need to be loved and instructed in the word. And if theology didn't matter I think I'd be playing with snakes.Jacob

If anyone is interested in viewing Mosaic's "Flying baby Jesus" video clip here is the address:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWgusmStXvI

Yikes! The clip is too short to get an adequate feel for what was intended here, perhaps this was meant as some type of satirical jab at "other" people who trivialize the Nativity story but uh, the lame attempt at a disclaimer near the end . . .

"No disrespect of course." (Spoken by one actor as he pats a replica of the cross.)

"I remember Erwin telling the crowd that God would honor this step of faith. I also remember Erwin's "invitation" that if anyone felt this was not God's will they should feel free to seek out another congregation."

Erwin asked for increased donations from Mosaic attendees and Mosaic members due to alleged "financial problems" stemming from Mosaic spending a lot of money to pay off the large mortgage loan on the Mosaic Chino Hills Church property in 2007. Erwin alleged that Mosaic due to that loan payoff has depleted almost all of Mosaic's cash reserves. Someone should find out how much the Church on Brady in East L.A. sold for and if that sales price corresponds with the loan payoff for the new Mosaic Chino Hills Property.

It does not seem to make financial sense to bail out a Church all the way in Chino Hills when most of Mosaic's congregation attends services in the L.A. metro area (downtown L.A., Beverly Hills and Pasadena) ?? Mosaic members have told me the rent at the Mayan Dance Club in downtown L.A. runs about $4,000 per month so that's about $50,000 per year in rent. I am informed that the rent for Mosaic's use of offices and auditorium in Pasadena at William Carey University is about $15,000 per month for a total of $180,000 per year. It seems that Mosaic giving should be high enough to meet these needs and build up a cash reserve over the past 4 years.

It seems like Erwin is creating a false need for increased giving without telling the members of Mosaic what is really going on ??What he should do is release detailed Church budget, church income and church expenses statements to the member of Mosaic and have an open public meeting where he answers questions about the Mosaic budget and property acquisitions, etc.

Yeah I agree with you. I hate to diss Erwin M. but something funny and shady seems to be going on at MOSAIC.

Erwin should chill out and be cool and cooperate with any Mosaic people and any former Mosaic people who want to review the accounting/financial books of Mosaic. If everything if fine and kosher then Erwin has nothing to hide and nothing to fear from a policy of financial transparency.

Something is kind of weird here. A search of public records shows that the Chino Hills Church that Mosaic bought is owned by "Inland Community Church, Inc." but the California Secretary of State has no corporate records on this corporation. The Secretary of State has corporate records on a corporation called "Mosaic Inland" though.

Public records show that the Chino Hills Church located at 5540 Schaefer Ave., Chino, CA 91710 was built in 1982 and has 2.18 acres and a building size of 79,520 square feet. It was last sold on 08/16/2002 for $1,960,000.Sales price was $24.65 per square foot. Seller was "Turner Trust". title was transferred on 8/30/2002.Amount of 1st loan on that sale was $2,400,000. Document number for Grant deed was 456116.Parcel No. is 1020-561-08-0000 for County of San Bernardino.Quality of the Building is rated as "poor".Why is Mosaic paying off a loan on a church building in the County of San Bernardino rated with "poor building quality" and allegedly depleting almost all of Mosaic's cash reserves in 2007 by doing this ??Why is Mosaic buying a property so far away from metropolitan Los Angeles in San Bernardino County from the "Turner Trust" ?? Who owns this Chino Church property ?? Mosaic Inland, Mosaic LA, Inland Community Church, Inc. ??What is happening here man ??

Maybe not today, Maybe not tomorrow but truth always comes out. And when it does (well it has) people like Erwin and the others who have been protecting him blindly will have to be accountable. There will be a reckoning.

As a follower of Christ, I agree that the best policy for MOSAIC to pursue now is to completely open their accounting books and financial records up for review and questions by both current Mosaic members and past Mosaic members.

To try to hide or conceal anything now or to refuse disclosure of tax returns now would be stupid and foolish.

Such concealment/refusal strategy would backfire on Mosaic and likely trigger multiple IRS and Franchise Tax Board audits of Mosaic and multiple Mosaic related entities and even audits of personnel as individuals who hold key positions in the Mosaic Alliance, Mosaic LA, Mosaic Inland, etc. etc.

The genie is out of the bottle. Pandora's box has been opened. Mosaic can still survive all this if the leaders/elders and anyone else involved just honestly seeks God's forgiveness and repents completely of their sins here.

As a concerned believer, I urge you to give up your mad quest in which you seek justice against Mosaic. You are like Captain Ahab who destroys himself by hunting the White Whale.

I urge you my friend to show the kind of mercy that "droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven", that is "enthroned in the heart of Kings" and "is an attribute to God Himself". May God show his lovingkindness to you. Also, may God have mercy upon the guilty parties in the leadership positions and management positions at MOSAIC who have allegedly mismanaged MOSAIC finances and allegedly misled the people of MOSAIC.

Let the guilty staff and guilty elders at MOSAIC read the parable of the lazy, evil steward recited by Christ himself. This steward is found guilty by God and thrown into the darkness where there is suffering and knashing of teeth aka punishment from God.

Is Eric Bryant still in charge of the finances. I know Erwin wanted to take control of it, which was one of the disagreements between he and Robert, but who is the chief financial officer? Do you know Yvonne? And Mosaic Members you can demand to see the books. You do give tithes. This request is within your right.

If MOSAIC and Erwin M. are honestly interested in preventing financial abuse in the church and opening up Mosaic's finances to true scrutiny by Mosaic's congregation, then MOSAIC would join the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability ("ECFA").

The EFCA is a ministry acrrediting body that includes as members 3 percent of all religious nonprofits. The EFCA recently started a church division.

It is likely even a smaller fraction of the nation's 300,000 churches in America will join the EFCA's church division --- and that the churches that most need outside scrutiny (e.g. MOSAIC) are least likely to join the EFCA.

Who are you to suggest that Mosaic should tell anyone about their finances!? They don't have to show them to anyone. If you want to know how Mosaic's finances are handled just ask Erwin, after all he is the man in charge, a Pastor, a great speaker, a Poet, a Filmmaker, and everything else good and noble. Just mind your own business and let Mosaic mind their's!

And, if/when the EFCA needs auditing or financial guidance just have them ask Erwin McManus, all around most upright and perfect man on the planet; only next to you know WHO.

"Since becoming lead pastor of Mosaic about a decade ago, McManus’ church membership has grown from about 300 adults to more than 3,000 adults. The historically Southern Baptist church also boasts over 40 different nationalities and is “packed” with artists such as musicians, writers and filmmakers."Michelle Vu -Christian Post

The above piece was written in an article on Jan. 15 of this year. This is one of the problems with Erwin. He obviously gave this writer wrong info.or someone at Mosaic. The numbers always change. The church in no way had 300 people when he began and they don't have 3000 today. Why doesn't he have the writer correct it. He won't because he doesn't see anything wrong with it. And that's why we have Mosaic of Pain. I know Erwin doesn't care for these sites, but he is a public figure. Why doesn't he watch what he says. Why isn't he more careful and truthful? The only answer can be arrogance. He'll show us! Sad MH

Hey Anonymous,I don't know whether your comment on 2/15/08 about Erwin being the most perfect being next to the Almighty Creator is serious or satirical ??God help you if you are serious.

The Mosaic printed Tri-fold brochure distributed in late January 2008 entitled "Mosaic: a Look Back at 2007 and a Look Ahead to 2008" states some interesting things.Under the heading "A New Campus Inland", the brochure says: "Acquired a 60,000 sq. ft. facility; paid off a $650,000 interest only loan".

If Mosaic is referring to the Chino Hills church location for Mosaic services inland; then what Anonymous said earlier, means that Mosaic is not telling the truth. Anonymous said the ownership title of that Chino Hills church facility at 5540 Schaefer Ave., Chino, CA 91710 (in San Bernardino County) is still under "Inland Community Church, Inc." not "Mosaic".

That Mosaic brochure also says "Average attendance of almost 2,800 every week (up from 2,300 in 2006)"This statement may be misleading as the attendance could have jumped by 600 people in 2007 by including the congregation members of that Chino Hills church location in San Bernardino County, owned by "Inland Community Church, Inc.".

The growth of 600 persons in average weekly attendance may not be attributable at all to growth of Mosaic in its Metropolitan Los Angeles locations in Pasadena, Beverly Hills and downtown L.A.I have been informed by Mosaic members attending these 3 L.A. County locations that attendance has actually declined at these three Metro L.A. services in 2007.

It seems that Mosaic's focus on "mysticism" extends not only to its theology but also to its creative, mystical descriptions of its finances and budget and membership attendance and real property acquisitions ???

"The primary aim of Mosaic Of Pain is to call for Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic Church, specifically it’s elders (where responsible) and lead pastor Erwin McManus, considering the abuse of power, abuse of finances and the abuse of God’s word."

Revisiting the Mosaic of Pain Mission Statement. Well Cris Erwin may not want to address these serious charges. However, he has addressed you guys in private, in public (look at recent interviews). Is the site influencial? Well people are now asking questions. They are more sensitive to Erwin's sermons and interviews. Many have left in a year. So yes, the site has been influential. I guess this could all go away, but it won't if Erwin's truly narcissistic. Maybe there are clearer heads around him?We can only hope.

P.S.And again thanks Cris for keeping this site up. I know it probably hasn't always been easy.

Check the post a year ago in Feb 2007. Aren't you guys all stuck in a hamster wheel? Your site does show that McManus is not as popular as Graham, Warner, Piper,etc. These guys have multiple hate sites exposing all their finacial and doctrinal errors. In a sick way it brings me relief to read this site. I am in leadership at a church. And as all church's have their self righteous critics - you guys are much more organized and lethal than what I have to deal with. I feel bad for McManus but he probaly takes refuge in knowing that a least he doesn't have hundreds of hate sites dedicated to him. Have fun and thanks for giving me some perspective for my own personal hate group.

stuck in a hamster wheel...I am in leadership at a church...I feel bad for McManus...Have fun and thanks for giving me perspective...

Interesting. Not believable. But nonetheless interesting. Your a leader. Now that is disturbing. And by the way, no fun going on here friend. But you've read the post since February, so you must already know that. If you have treated people in your body improperly, if you've made bad judgments with the church finances and if you’re teaching a man-centered theology, then maybe you should listen to the people around you. Maybe their giving you some help. Maybe you equate hate to real concern for the body. I really hope your not a leader, but if you are, make things right. Be different. MH

"Check the post a year ago in Feb 2007. Aren't you guys all stuck in a hamster wheel? Your site does show that McManus is not as popular as Graham, Warner, Piper,etc. These guys have multiple hate sites exposing all their financial and doctrinal errors. In a sick way it brings me relief to read this site. I am in leadership at a church. And as all church's have their self righteous critics - you guys are much more organized and lethal than what I have to deal with. I feel bad for McManus but he probbaly takes refuge in knowing that a least he doesn't have hundreds of hate sites dedicated to him. Have fun and thanks for giving me some perspective for my own personal hate group."

Check the post a year ago in Feb 2007. Aren't you guys all stuck in a hamster wheel? = You are still saying the same thing and Mosiac/McManus are not budging, thus QUIT.

Your site does show that McManus is not as popular as Graham, Warner, Piper,etc. These guys have multiple hate sites exposing all their financial and doctrinal errors. = Your concerns about Mosaic/Mcmanus are nothing compared to that of other Pastor's excesses. Oh, and the word "hate" = you're wrong and we Pastors are right, just because I used the "h" word concerning what you are doing - sort of a "get out of jail free" card we Pastors have.

In a sick way it brings me relief to read this site. I am in leadership at a church. And as all church's have their self righteous critics - you guys are much more organized and lethal than what I have to deal with. = Whew, glad these guys are not around to point out my excesses and misuse of power at my church!

I feel bad for McManus but he probably takes refuge in knowing that a least he doesn't have hundreds of hate sites dedicated to him. = McManus is fortunate and will probably get away with it.

Have fun and thanks for giving me some perspective for my own personal hate group. = I do not care anything about you, and I am very glad that you guys are not pointing out my abuses of God's Word, my churches finances or my position of power! : )

Read the blog on “The Barbarian Way.” I’m convinced now that people like the rah rah and the spectacle (look at a certain democrat candidate), but seldom take a closer look. I think people come away with something quite different when they take a serious look at Erwin and his “teachings.” Just a Thought

Why don't you guys start a church? Seems like all that you have learned from Mosaic's faults you could really have a effective community. I think this might be a better use of your talents and love for Jesus. You could alwaus spend some time each week judging and praying for Mosaic at your worship time. Does everyone on here belong to a local church? Does the leadership of your church know how you spend your life - with this site and everything?You are right I would not want you watch dogs at the church I serve at. You could point our a couple of hundred of my faults and sins pretty easy. I don't even feel worthy to clean the restrooms at our church, I'm such a screw-up. Again I think you guys all joining together and starting your own church would really great.

"...Again I think you guys all joining together and starting your own church would really great."

If you are truly concerned with this site you might want to revisit the mission statement of MOP. Its simple and clearly stated. Erwin is a public figure and his influence on the "church" is significant. His theology is being addressed here. He has financially misled members of Mosaic regarding the "Believe the Impossible" campaign for a new church. (They did pay out a few people, but stopped when they realized it would cost a bundle). And it is apparent that they continue to make mistakes in this area. (I don't know if there intentional or not). And finally Erwin has mistreated his flock and some of those examples have been posted here. He knows exactly how to address these issues. I know this may seem trivial to you. But it doesn't for others. It sounds like your in ministry, if you truly are concerned about us. You may want to be a little more sensitive. Again you are a pastor, right? And yes we could use your prayers and so could Mosaic. Their are brothers and sister that really want to make a difference there, but are being hindered by Erwin and his leaders (not volunteer). Peace to you MH

Probably many of us are not in a local church; after what we have experienced there is little reason to believe the modern church of today makes a difference - most are fairly irrelevant - especially churches like Mosaic.

Concerning your comment, "Does the leadership of your church know how you spend your life - with this site and everything?" is a perfect example of such.

We are no longer scared or afraid to speak Truth. We look to God alone for our peace and support.

"Why don't you guys start a church? Seems like all that you have learned from Mosaic's faults you could really have a effective community. I think this might be a better use of your talents and love for Jesus."

With that same line of reasoning, maybe everyone within the courts and law enforcement of this country might find a better use of their time, planting trees and flowers. Or, how about they all just go off and get married and make babies? Yeah, that way they could be "productive" members of society, not just gun totting, judgmental negative people!

Someone wrote: "Check the post a year ago in Feb 2007. Aren't you guys all stuck in a hamster wheel? Your site does show that McManus is not as popular as Graham, Warner, Piper,etc. These guys have multiple hate sites exposing all their finacial and doctrinal errors."

Okay, I know about Graham, and I've seen sites on Warner, but I can't find these sites on Piper that you're talking about. Can you please refer me to them? I know this site isn't about Piper, but if you are going to make statements like that, please demonstrate evidence, i.e. site links. Thanks.

BR,I did some research as well. Graham has been around a long time and its understandable that over the years there will be some who will find fault with him. And Warner has had some of the same difficulties as Erwin, regarding theology. And Piper, well I haven't found anything substantial on Piper, except that he quotes himself too much. Not my opinion, but a criticism. I don't think I would put McManus in the Piper, Graham or even MacArthur camp.

I've done A LOT of websurfing in the past year and I've found A LOT of other websites/blogs expressing criticism of Erwin McManus. Not all of them are written by so-called "discernment" ministries either.

One example of a site run by and for the younger generation is an Australian blog, Signposts 2.

Here is the name and URL's for two posts that included a discussion about Erwin McManus:

Recent articles in Christian publications reveal that the senior leadership of Willow Creek has admitted that its "seeker sensitive" strategy has largely failed to create dedicated Christian believers. Tragically, many much smaller Emergent Church groups have followed this failed "seeker sensitive" approach which completely de-emphasizes the importance of reading and studying the Bible, the Word of God:

The turnover rate at Mosaic is quite high. Most voluntary staff aka members leave Mosaic within 1 to 3 years; non-members (plain attendees) usually leave within 6 months to 2 years; Mosaic is a Merry Go round where it stops and picks up new people and the former members get off after a short time.There are no deacons or mid-level leaders at Mosaic only lower-level voluntary staff and senior Elders. No army can survive without mid-level officers or advanced training. There are no Sunday education classes at Mosaic at all. There is no serious study of the Bible either on Sundays in adult or children's classes;

Only 10 percent of the weekly Small Groups committ themselves to serious study of any Books of the Bible. Mosaic is a mini-version of the failed strategy of Willow Creek.

**************article from the Internet today:2/25/08:

By DAVID VAN BIEMA 2 hours, 10 minutes ago

A major new survey presents perhaps the most detailed picture we've yet had of which religious groups Americans belong to. And its big message is: blink and they'll change. For the first time, a large-scale study has quantified what many experts suspect: there is a constant membership turnover among most American faiths. America's religious culture, which is best known for its high participation rates, may now be equally famous (or infamous) for what the new report dubs "churn."

The report, released today by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, is the first selection of data from a 35,000- person poll called the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey. Says Pew Forum director Luis Lugo, Americans "not only change jobs, change where they live, and change spouses, but they change religions too. We totally knew it was happening, but this survey enabled us to document it clearly."

According to Pew, 28% of American adults have left the faith of their childhood for another one. And that does not even include those who switched from one Protestant denomination to another; if it did, the number would jump to 44%. Says Greg Smith, one of the main researchers for the "Landscape" data, churn applies across the board. "There's no group that is simply winning or simply losing," he says. "Nothing is static. Every group is simultaneously winning and losing."

For some groups, their relatively steady number of adherents over the years hides a remarkable amount of coming and going. Simply counting Catholics since 1972,for example, you would get the impression that its population had remained fairly static - at about 25% of adult Americans (the current number is 23.9%). But the Pew report shows that of all those raised Catholic, a third have left the church. (That means that roughly one out of every 10 people in America is a former Catholic, and that ex-Catholics are almost as numerous as the America's second biggest religious group, Southern Baptists.) But Catholicism has made up for the losses by adding converts (2.6% of the population) and, more significantly, enjoying an influx of new immigratns, mostly Hispanic.

An even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny Jehovah's Witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds. That means that two-thirds of the people who told Pew they were raised Jehovah's Witnesses no longer are - yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts. Notes Lugo, "No wonder they have to keep on knocking on doors."

The single biggest "winner," in terms of number gained versus number lost, was not a religious group at all, but the "unaffiliated" category. About 16% of those polled defined their religious affiliation that way (including people who regarded themselves as religious, along with atheists and agnostics); only 7% had been brought up that way. That's an impressive gain, but Lugo points out that churn is everywhere: even the unaffiliated group lost 50% of its original membership to one church or another.

The report does not speculate on the implications of its data. But Lugo suggests, "What it says is that this marketplace is highly competitive and that no one can sit on their laurels, because another group out there will make [its tenets] available" for potential converts to try out. While this dynamic "may be partly responsible for the religious vitality of the American people," he says, "it also suggests that there is an institutional loosening of ties," with less individual commitment to a given faith or denomination.

Lugo would not speculate on whether such a buyer's market might cause some groups to dilute their particular beliefs in order to compete. There are signs of that in such surveys as one done by the Willow Creek megachurch outside Chicago, which has been extremely successful in attracting tens of thousands of religious "seekers." An internal survey recently indicated much of its membership was "stalled" in their spiritual growth, Lugo allowed that "it does raise the question of, once you attract these folks, how do you root them within your own particular tradition when people are changing so quickly."

The Pew report has other interesting findings; the highest rates for marrying within one's own faith, for example, are among Hindus (90%) and Mormons (83%)). The full report is accessible at the Pew Forum site.View this article on Time.com

Hey Anonymous,there is an in-depth article in the January 2008 edition of the monthly newspaper , The Christian Examiner, published in California and Washington, about how the Willow Creek Church has admitted that its "seeker sensitive" policies and church strategy has been a complete failure in creating dedicated followers of Christ.

Willow Creek and Bill Hybels according to the article have even published a book documenting the failed "seeker" strategies of Willow Creek.

The article is shocking in that it points out that thousands of Protestant as well as Catholic churches across the U.S. for the past 20 years have followed the now failed "seeker sensitive" strategies of WILLOW CREEK and its Emergent Church leaders (e.g. telling seekers and new Christians not to read the Bible regularly and not to pray regularly, etc.).

The terrible problem with MOSAIC is that it has radicalized the now proven to be defective strategies of WILLOW CREEK. Mosaic has gone beyond "seeker sensitive" to voicing anti-Christian and anti-Church and anti-religion teachings. Christ did not come to tear down the Church of God but to build it up.

Mosaic is deluded in its teachings to bring in seekers it now preaches an anti-God, anti-Christ, anti-religion, anti-Church philosophy. The worldly atmosphere of the Sunday services at Mosaic reminds me of the moral and spiritual darkness at bars and nightclubs all across Los Angeles where drugs, alcohol, etc. pervade the world. The worldly teaching of Erwin M. remind me of the warnings in Matthew 24 of Christ to avoid deception and false prophets in the End Times.

Willow Creek has admitted its ways ended in complete failure but Mosaic should reverse its course as its ways will surely end in disaster, spiritual, moral, etc.God may have sent strong delusion upon Mosaic's leaders and young members , as it is stated in 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2:"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie...."

This is a comment section ... not a place to re-post entire articals. PLEASE DO NOT COPY AND PASTE entire articals here. It is fine to copy and paste a section that you would like to discuss. Also what Yvonne has done above is also acceptable which is linking to the article. In fact if you are discussing a particular article then it is best to include a link to where we can all read the entire article.

I have deleted a couple of comments recently for reposting soemone else's entire article. Let's be nice and point to where you read the article. Thanks!

It is not cool of Mosaic to diss Christianity as a whole and religion & the Church of Jesus Christ as a whole, just to be trendy & cool. Erwin M. should chill out. To attack and diss the Church and Christianity like that is acting like a cannibal, turning around and eating your own Christian brothers and sisters and other church groups, just so you can fill your own church and promote yourself as a hip barbarian or tribal leader.

That is real garbage to do that Mosaic.....Erwin M. you really are a cannibal and a real barbarian. Barbarians in history do not create, they only destroy. The Huns, the Mongols, the Germanic barbarians that destroyed the Roman empire and plunged Western Civilization into the DArk ages sought only to destroy not to build up and to create beauty & truth.

How can Mosaic say it promotes the arts and artists when it says Mosaic should be full of barbarians who tear down the Church, and tear down God and Christianity ?? these things and principles are exact opposites.

The failures of Willow Creek Church's seeker sensitive movement and the copycat Emergent Churches are documented in a December 1, 2007 article in "World Magazine", a Christian publication.

http://www.worldmag.com/articles/13552

Why is Erwin M. and Mosaic inviting Mr. Hybels and other senior pastors of WILLOW CREEK to the Mosaic AWAKEN conference to speak about their failed seeker sensitive strategies aka get a big crowd into your church but do NOT educate them about the Bible or how to read/study the Bible or how to pray, etc........is Erwin M. inviting Hybels and his Willow Creek progeny to AWAKEN everyone to their failed strategies ??

The comments by the Senior Pastor Bill Hybels of WILLOW CREEK Church should be a clear warning to Mosaic and its apostate leaders and New Age elders.

"We made a mistake," Hybels said at Willow Creek's annual Leadership Summit, where the results of the survey were presented. "When people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become 'self feeders.' We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their Bible between service, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own."

Mosaic's efforts to create a "Mosaic Alliance" similar to the alliance of thousands of Willow Creek clone churches is doomed to failure if Mosaic seeks to copy the failed "seeker sensitive" policies of WILLOW CREEK.

Erwin M. must realize now after the admissions of Hybels that the MOSAIC ALLIANCE is defective structure built on sinking sand. Mosaic must start to build on the solid foundation of rock, that is, the Word of God, the Holy Bible. Everything else is sinking sand, everything else is sinking sand.

Trying to wrap myself around all this Willow Creek Seeker Friendly "stuff." None of my friends are going to Awaken. The price is steep and the conference is in the middle of the week. The attendees must be from the outside. The price is $369.00 after Friday. I don't know but maybe those from other churches who are part of the alliance are requiered to go? If not, I don't know who's going.

Just visited Mosaic Alliance again, Level 3 is worth a second look. Maybe I'm deaf, dumb and blind, does this make sense to anyone? I don’t want to use the c word, but…A MOP MEMBER (No relation to MOPMEMBER)

Annual $200 administration fee. Invest 5% of your annual budget towards church planting with the Mosaic Alliance in critical metropolitan cities worldwide. Receive all of the benefits of level 2 plus: o Partnership in entrepreneurial global initiatives.o Opportunity and invitation to our new experiences.o Make friends with some of the most interesting people in the world!o EXCLUSIVE consultation with the Mosaic Alliance Team.

Tragically, Mosaic is very similar to the Church of Scientology in its use of personality finder tests / personal & career strengths testsin marketing itself to "seekers" and "lost souls";Even more tragically, Mosaic in its PR campaign / teachings preaches a destructive "anti-Christianity" message.

This "anti-Christ / anti-Church" message is even more destructive than the Church of Scientology's "anti-psychiatry, anti-medication, anti-psychiatrist" PR campaign in which Scientology sends out tens of thousands of flyers, newspapers and postcards to large parts of Los Angeles to advertise its free personality tests / free personality profiles seminars.

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» The Character Matrix based on Uprising: A Revolution of the Soul by Erwin McManus"********************While it is good to point out the uniqueness of every human's individual personality, potential and individual strengths, it is clear that Mosaic has forgotten that it is even more important to teach about the "uniqueness" of Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross to save humanity from its sins and eternal death. Erwin M. chooses tragically to emphasize the importance of the creations of God over the importance of the Creator, God himself. Erwin M. has turned upside down humanity's greatest duty, that is to worship God, our Creator. Instead, he emphasizes the worship of humanity.

You are right about the same marketing and recruitment method of a free personality test , as to both Mosaic and the Church of Scientology.

They just use different personality tests but the same PR campaign method of the "personality test".

See the information listed below from the Internet encyclopedia Wikipedia:

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the Church of Scientology personality test. For other uses, see Oxford (disambiguation).Sign advertising Scientology personality tests. San Francisco, April 2006.Sign advertising Scientology personality tests. San Francisco, April 2006.

The Oxford Capacity Analysis (OCA), also known as the American Personality Analysis, is a personality test that is given for free by the Church of Scientology. The OCA test is offered by the Church of Scientology online, at its local churches, and sometimes at local fairs, carnivals, and in other public settings. It has no relation to the University of Oxford.

The test is an important part of Scientology recruitment and is used worldwide by the Church of Scientology to attract new members. However, it has attracted criticism from psychologists, who consider it to be "not a genuine personality test"[1] and criticize the Church of Scientology for using it in what they regard as a "highly manipulative"[2] and "manifestly unethical" fashion.[3]"

The Church of Jesus Christ is becoming like the secular world and even like the False Cults.

A February 2008 article from US News & World Report says that 17 percent of American Christians follow the twisted "prosperity Gospel" that God will give them financial prosperity, career success and good health if they believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. What kind of Church is the Church of Jesus Christ turning into with the likes of Mosaic preaching an "Anti-Christianity / anti-Church Gospel" and the likes of hundreds of American churches that preach the false "prosperity gospel".

I have read the comments of the MOP members, Mosaic members, and many others on your website. You all have some valid and good points in your many messages.......However, at this time approaching Palm Sunday, Good Friday and Easter, maybe everyone should lay down their arms......maybe we owe it to Jesus at this time, to throw down our swords, our shields and our daggers, our javelins....if just for a short time......

Maybe like the Roman centurion at the Cross, we should marvel at the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the power of God.

We are all brothers & sisters in Christ whether we are Jew, Gentile, woman, man, slave or free, let the members of MOP and MOSAIC and everyone try to find some common ground between them if possible.As for me, I lay down my arms now at the foot of the Cross; I have decided to fight for no other army and no one else any longer....except for my Savior whose blood has taken away all my sins and who has saved me from the gates of Hell. Peace.

Anonymous (Peace),I think you might have misunderstood this site. "...laying down our arms..." This site has been instrumental in revealing what goes on behind the curtains at Mosaic. It has helped current and former members. It has been read by hundreds and as I've been told thousands of hits. There is a major problem at Mosaic If only 10% of what has been posted here is accurate. The truth is that the percentage is like 99.9% accurate. So maybe Erwin can humble himself (tough thing to do if you know Erwin)and make things right. Apologize for what he's done. Stop preaching his me-centered theology and open his books for the bretheren. And payback sevenfold what he's misappropriated. Then we'll all have a wonderful Easter and the Lord will be glorified. Because the church is cleaning its house, be careful you don't miss that point. Because then its pointless. Peace

Is not Easter, Palm Sunday, etc.., more about not giving into the ruling class, taking one's road to the cross?

Yes our bunnies and eggs have made it seem more like a feel good time...but speaking out for the sacrifice of Christ, in the midst of the masses that want to follow the convenient norm, is more of what Easter is really about.

Did you know this past Sunday March 9, 2008, at Mosaic Pasadena, Erwin M. made a pitch for the congregation to show their willingness to help the poor and the disadvantaged by donating their shoes at the front of the auditorium ??

Erwin M., a master actor and stage performer, took off his shoes first and then asked people to come up front to him and take off their shoes also,to donate to the Los Angeles Union Rescue Mission.

Little do people know at Mosaic that Erwin M. stole this "shoe donation" idea to the Union Rescue Mission from a 2006 Biola University graduate. See attached March 2008 story from a Christian newspaperthat reports on the recent 100th Anniversary of Biola University and that 2006 Biola graduate who came up with the original idea to have a shoe drive at BIOLA to celebrate BIOLA's anniversary and committment to the Union Rescue Mission which was founded by a Biola graduate.

Erwin M. appears to be a cheap rip-off artist of other people's ideas. He copy-catted the Church of Scientology's personality profile test as a marketing device.Now he rips off the idea of a shoe drive from BIOLA UNIVERSITY as his own idea. Erwin takes marketing ideas from evil CULTS like the CHURCH of SCIENTOLOGY and then he rips off charitable drive ideas from Christian universities like BIOLA.

This man is a New Age Charlatan. He is like a Vaudeville performer or a Gambling website promoter that markets false and evil goods. He is selling snake oil telling people it is a cure-all tonic for all illnesses.

Ouch! Don't know that the name calling is necessary. Erwin is just trying to show some compassion. In the 50's churches would donate used tea bags to send to overseas missionaries...who cares who came up with the idea. Donating used anything is a bad idea.

If Erwin wants to show his compassion, then instead of asking for people's shoes this past Sunday, March 9th, Erwin should have rolled up his shirt sleeves and offered towash anyone's feet who came up to the front of the auditorium.To be a true leader, you need to be a servant of all others.I don't see Erwin M. as a servant.

He likes to be in the limelight. He wants to be a celebrity or a movie star or a famous writer. He would fit in with those who seek fame and fortune at the Celebrity Centre for the Church of Scientology, the cult of greed and fame.

Erwin M. would rather be seen with Tom Cruise or some other secular movie star than with Mother Theresa or another believer who spends their life in service to the poor.

Erwin M. should have had a big pan of water and a towel last Sunday and washed people's feet. His message was that Christians should not seek out situations where they would be oppressed or persecuted because in life oppression and persecution would find them anyway.

What kind of screwed up message is that....to tell believers to avoid situations in life where they will suffer oppression/persecution ??He is telling others to be cowards and not to serve others if it puts them in a difficult or painful environment.

Erwin should have gotten on his knees like Christ and washed anyone's feet who came up to the front of the auditorium.......Instead he asked for their used shoes.

I think that all the MOP members and the Mosaic loyalists and everyone else should just declare a truce, a cease-fire....if just for a temporary or short time during this Easter season. Palm Sunday is coming up with Good Friday and then Easter.

Maybe instead of fighting and debating one another we should all just focus on the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior. We should all realize that we are flawed sinners like Barrabas, the killer and robber, set free by the Roman governor. Jesus took the place of Barrabas at the cross at Calvary.

We are all like Barrabas, guilty sinners who deserve to die. Jesus took the punishment meant for Barrabas and all of us.

"I think that all the MOP members and the Mosaic loyalists and everyone else should just declare a truce, a cease-fire....if just for a temporary or short time during this Easter season. Palm Sunday is coming up with Good Friday and then Easter."

Why not also forget all the pain and suffering in the world as well. Let's just all pretend for awhile.

I agree with Anonymous that during this Palm Sunday/ Easter time, both the Mosaic and MOP members should put down their weapons and stop fighting.

As for me, I am tired of war and I am weary of battles. I will make a separate peace for myself at the Cross. I will say a farewell to arms. I am now a slave of Christ. I submit my will to the Will of God.