30 July 2009

The Chaser's War on Everything: Help me put my son to death

Here are the verses that tell you what to do with a son that curses you:

And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. Exodus 21:17

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. Leviticus 20:9

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Matthew 15:4

And here are some verses to deal with that homosexual, adulterous, fortune-telling, hump-backed, dwarf priest with crushed testicles.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:10

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God ... Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken ... shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD. Leviticus 21:16-21

The majority of the Old Testament is under Mosaic Law. The Law of Moses was strict and prohibitive. Punishment was swift and unambiguous. The law is characterized in the statement - "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." The laws referred to in this (admittedly amusing) clip are from Mosaic Law. Since Christ, there has been a pretty universal "no stoning" policy.

A lot of Christians aren't as familiar with the Old Testament. The New Testament is much more central to the teachings of most Christian sects because most Christians believe that the law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ. That's why Christ taught that the new law was turn the other cheek rather than eye for an eye. See also Matthew 22:36-40.

Tractate Sanhedrin, a book of the Talmud, says "'A stubborn and rebellious son' there never was and there never will be such. Then why is it written? To teach, "'Study and receive the reward.'"

(Folio 68b/chapter 8)

It goes onto explain why it was impossible to carry out, and what the purpose of writing something that can never be carried out is.

The Talmud also says (and I'm not sure of the exact piece) that the punishment for cursing a parent is only carried out if it is done in conjunction with HaShem, the parents are dead, and, as in all cases with the law, the person was over 13 (The age when a boy becomes a man in Judaism).

The death penalty in general was extremely hard to carry out, and was only done once in about 70 years in the average Sanhedrin (Any Sanhedrin that carried it out more than once every 70 years was regarded as a "bloody Sanhedrin).

The Biblical death penalty was hypothetical. They used it less than we do today.

Yeah, david it would seem -- according to your holy book -- the laws of the Old Testament are still binding.

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Exodus 12:14, 17, 24 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. ... And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. ... And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

Leviticus 23:14,21,31 It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.

Deuteronomy 4:8-9 What nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? ... teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons.

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.

Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God.

1 Chronicles 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant.

Psalm 119:151-2 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

Psalm 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses.

Matthew 5:18-19 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

To Bustereggi, Sconnor and anyone else who wishes to ask me questions directly, I am glad to respond by further explaining my beliefs when the questions are posed in a respectful and sincere fashion, and I appreciate the opportunity. I do not wish to argue, nor do I feel I need to “defend” my position. I am more than happy to clarify my understanding of the gospel and the scriptures, however.As with many things in the bible, this principle is not spelled out as clearly as one would like. There is no passage that says “Thou shalt now obey the higher law of the new testament ushered in by the Son of God, as He has fulfilled the purpose for which the Law of Moses was instituted.” Further, some of the terminology is somewhat ambiguous. For example, the first scripture Sconnor quoted refers to the Abrahamic Covenant which is distinct from the Law of Moses and remains in force to this day.One fairly clear reference to Mosaic Law as a preparation for the higher law instituted by Jesus Christ is in Hebrews 2:19,22. 19 For the law (referring to the Mosaic Law) made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.The old law, the Law of Moses, had strict specifications in all things. The new or higher law, placed a much greater responsibility on the believer to exercise his judgment – using what he knew of the will of God through his own intelligence, the scriptures and the Holy Ghost. Christ illustrates the difference in The Sermon on the Mount:Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matt. 5:27–28). The majority of the Sermon on the Mount is an explanation of this principle: turn cheek rather than eye for an eye, love your enemies, etc.Sconnor, your second to last reference, Matt 5:18-19, is Christ explaining this. Look to 5:17 to understand. He did not destroy the Law of Moses – He fulfilled it. Obeying the 10 Commandments and the other points of the law wasn’t enough to justify the people (make them clean enough that they could return to live with the Father). Their performances and sacrifices were intended to point them to the great atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and to prepare them to live the higher law of His gospel.

I think most Christians and Jews do just ignore that bad and concentrate on what's good. I was raised Catholic and went to church every Sunday until I was 18, and believe me, the readings and homilies never ever touched the vile stuff found in much of the Bible. It was all the sermon on the mount and the good samaritan and the like that was stressed.

And this video just proves that most of those who claim to believe the Bible simply don't know what's really in there. If they did, they'd probably be a lot more skeptical.

Hilarious and yet sad. It's obvious these people weren't aware of the verses, and don't know what to say or think. The Bible must be right, but these verses are wrong, so...

Thanks for the list, sconnor. I'll definitely refer to it next time this comes up (it came up in the other thread, but I don't want to double-post there). Brendan and David were both posting in that thread as well, so I'd be curious to hear what their response is to these verses, especially the New Testament ones that say the Old Testament law still applies.

I've never been to a Church before (Except a Unitarian one), but at my Temple we don't "ignore the bad". The subject is usually not talked about at family services, since, you know, there's 5 year old kids there.

Markus:

Atheists accuse us of "picking and choosing". Now you ask why we don't pick and choose.

How the hell would you know what kind of spiritual, moral merit there is in the Torah or Bible? You're not a Christian, and you're not a Jew. And judging by the SAB, most of you don't even know what most passages even mean.

Now, clearly, the proper response to that is that you've read the books and have found nothing of moral or spiritual merit in them.

Clearly, whatever Jews have been doing, it works, since we've survived thousands of years of persecution.

To Bustereggi, Sconnor and anyone else who wishes to ask me questions directly, I am glad to respond by further explaining my beliefs when the questions are posed in a respectful.....

I could give a shit. Let me make something abundantly clear -- I do NOT respect you. I consider you an ignorant superstitious delusional christian, who insanely claims to know god's will and character without providing credible objective evidence for your ridiculous claims.

With this said, even if every skeptic, atheist or unbeliever was a frothing at the mouth belligerent disrespectful M-F'er -- this does not make ANY of your delusional claims anymore true. Additionally, even if I am abrasive or you deem me disrespectful -- for whatever reason -- this does not take away from the many germane and salient arguments I pose.

When I encounter asshole disrespectful christians I do NOT retreat with my tail between my legs lamenting I will only engage if they're respectful -- no; in fact I will be relentless in my endeavors reiterating my arguments and offering counter-arguments without having to make excuses. --S.

Good thing we got david's enucleation -- he's got the one and only truth.

Or brenden's or a christadelphian's or a mormon's, or a born-again bapist, or an universalist, or a catholic, or jehovah witness, or pentecostal, or evangelical, or Amish, or Jews for christ or, or, or......oh, you get the point.

There are over 34,000 separate christian groups in the world, ALL with varying and vast interpretations, deciphered from their idiosyncratic interpretation of scripture from the bible, about who god is, what god wants, what is heaven what is hell, how a person is saved, and on and on and on ALL claiming it's biblical and true.

I'll tell you what, david, when christianity has one unified, unequivocal message, that ALL christians agree on, you let me know -- I'll hear back from you in about -- NEVER.

"...funny how god is wholly incapable of getting his ALL-important messages to everyone unequivocally."

Ok, so Christians disagree - given. Does that somehow indicate that God doesn't exist or isn't omniscient/omnipotent? Nope. Granted, if He wanted to make it abundantly clear to you, He could extend his finger and write the 10 commandments on the side of your house. The fact that He doesn't do that is reason enough for you to dismiss Him?

For His own reasons, which reasons I think are fairly easily deduced logically, He doesn't want it to be too easy to find out truth. He puts the responsibility on us to determine the truth to the best of our individual abilities.

Let me further tell you, Sconnor, that christianity does have one unified, unequivocal message, that ALL christians agree on - Mormons, born agains, Catholics, etc. God exists. Man is imperfect. In order to return to live with the father, God sent His son, Jesus Christ to be our savior - to pay the price for our sins that we could not.

1. Ahhh -- thanks for the admission. Given this admission soon you will realize how devastating it is to your feeble beliefs **.

Does that somehow indicate that God doesn't exist or isn't omniscient/omnipotent? Nope.

Oh yes -- yes indeed. More on that below **

Granted, if He wanted to make it abundantly clear to you, He could extend his finger and write the 10 commandments on the side of your house. The fact that He doesn't do that is reason enough for you to dismiss Him?

2. Strawman. You present the argument and then you answer it -- that's fallacious.

3. My reasons for dismissing your god-concept are many and none of them include the bullshit argument of god not writing the ten commandments on my garage -- F-ing ridiculous.

For His own reasons, which reasons I think are fairly easily deduced logically, He doesn't want it to be too easy to find out truth. He puts the responsibility on us to determine the truth to the best of our individual abilities.

4. And besides pulling that out of your ass where exactly did you acquire this information?

5. Furthermore, 2,000+ years ago your god-man jesus sure as hell made it easy for some people to believe in him -- like raising the dead, proving to thomas by showing the holes in his hands thus confirming he was resurrected. It would seem your god-concept is schizophrenic. How come he made it easy for them to know the (supposed) truth?

Let me further tell you, Sconnor, that christianity does have one unified, unequivocal message, that ALL christians agree on - Mormons, born agains, Catholics, etc. God exists.

Ha! -- thanks for the laugh.

6. Silly ole delusional one -- that belief in god is not unequivocal. They ALL present different arguments of his character and will or in other words they all have different definitions of their own god-concept.

7. Whoop-D-doo -- they believe in god. The fact that the all believe in god is meaningless, which in turn renders your argument obsolete. Other religious groups, such as Muslims, Hindus, American Indians, some Buddhists, wiccans, also believe in a divine entity but that doesn't mean their definition of this god is unequivocal.

Man is imperfect. In order to return to live with the father, God sent His son, Jesus Christ to be our savior - to pay the price for our sins that we could not.

8. ** OK -- on to dismantling your feeble argument.

9. Presumably you believe god loved the world so much that he sent his one and onlt son to be tortured and crucified to save us all -- correct?

10. But in order to be saved -- imperfect fallible human beings -- must interpret the one and only truth from scripture (which by your admission is not easy). They must decipher exactly what the criteria is to be saved. In essence your god threw it right back into the hands of us imperfect fallible human beings to save ourselves.

12. How come your omniscient omnipotent sky-fairy put his ALL-important messages (especially as to how one is supposedly saved) into a book that couldn't get to the masses throughout history because of land barriers, water barriers, time barriers, language barriers, cultural barriers, technological barriers etc?

13. How come your omniscient omnipotent sky-fairy put his ALL-important messages (especially as to how one is supposedly saved) into a book that uses difficult or vague texts and translations, parables, poems, songs, metaphor, dream imagery, switching from literal to non-literal, that could so easily be misinterpreted, perverted or interpreted, so many different ways?

14. How come your omniscient omnipotent sky-fairy didn't take into account that the majority of his earthly children (the ones he loved so much) would be born into another religion thereby dismissing christianity?

15. How come your omniscient omnipotent sky-fairy didn't take into account that their would be skeptics, unbelievers, agnostics and atheists who through critical thinking skills and reason would dismiss his supposed message as untenable?

16. The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be believed only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.' -Robert G. Ingersoll

17. In fact the only ones supposedly saved are just a tiny minority -- the ones who share your beliefs and the certain criteria you deem to be true in order to be saved.

18. So your supposed omniscient omnipotent god-concept who so loved the world and wants to save everyone makes it impossible for the majority of his earthly children to be saved because he was massively incompetent and morbidly negligent and attempted to get his supposed message of salvation to his earthly children with the wholly inferior method of using a fucking book.

19. The Christian’s Delusion Of Salvation

20. God -- who so loved the WORLD and wanted to save everyone -- initiated a plan, of restoration, by sending his son, to be tortured, crucified and sacrificed, to save humanity. Sinful, imperfect humanity -- who couldn't possibly save themselves -- in the end, must pick someones interpretation from a book on how one is supposedly saved and accept and believe in Jesus etc., so they can have eternal life and yet, the other 70% of the world -- at this moment in time -- are other religions, the non-religious, or unbelievers, who are not bible-believing Christians. Didn't God consider his other earthly children, when he put his feeble, plan into action?

21. The other 30% of christians who are supposedly saved, are further reduced to even a smaller minority because presumably there are certain criterion that only certain christians follow. Looks like Jesus' torturous, sacrifice was futile. God's inept, plan is incapable of saving everyone and hinges on the fallible imperfect human beings who couldn't save themselves, in the first place. God’s plan -- in using a spurious book for salvation -- is tragically flawed, wholly inadequate and morbidly negligent. The number of supposed lost souls, who will be tortured in the flames of hell for an eternity is monumentally, mind-blowing. God has failed on a colossal level. This is why your omniscient omnipotent god-concept crumbles to the ground.

Brendan: "The Biblical death penalty was hypothetical. They used it less than we do today."

As the presented says in the video, it would be helpful to have an asterisk next to the hypothetical bits. It's odd that God would set down law that requires a PhD (or whatever it is that you possess) to decipher its truth,

Brian_E,

It's an Australian program on ABC 1 - it sounds British because Aussie TV announcers sound English to American ears.