El-P is not a businessman by nature, but rather, by necessity. In a music industry smeared with artistic ultraviolence and held together by cobweb sutures, the Brooklyn, New York-based emcee decided to take matters into his own, deft hands and start an independent hip-hop label in 1999, calling it Definitive Jux Records. It wasn't long before the label became one of the most legit and dynamic sources for underground hip-hop in the country. "The greatest thing that can ever happen for an artist is to make money off what he does for a living," El-P says. "One of the worst things that can happen for an artist is to all of a sudden be this little guppy in a fish tank full of piranhas."

Rather than balk at the challenge of running his own business, El-P enlisted a slew of talent such as Cannibal Ox, Aesop Rock, Cage, and Rob Sonic, amongst others, and the players quickly became recognized as some of the most influential on the scene. One of the label's biggest releases in 2007 was El-P's own full-length "I'll Sleep When You're Dead," which saw El-P master the politics of provocation with his music and ease through dissections of the human condition with dexterity and total confidence. The album is a rhyme-sayer's reckoning, of sorts -- 13 tracks of post-millennial hip-hop for the gas mask generation.

Last May, Daniel Robert Epstein chatted with El-P about Ill Sleep When Youre Dead, but SuicideGirls had a few more questions to ask so we caught up with the emcee and CEO (again) to talk business and pleasure -- or more specifically, what happens when your pleasure becomes your business.

Erin Broadley: You just got home from a long stint on the road. How are you recovering from the tour?

EL-P: Im good. Its been about a month since Ive been home so Im finally acclimatizing myself to the boredom.

EB: You just did a one-off, free show in New York, right?

EL-P: At Urban Outfitters, yeah. It was really good, actually. I looked at it as a cool thing to do for fans. It was pretty fun. We try and do things like that every once in a while just because, you know, its kind of a bitch for people to have to pay to see you every time.

EB: You started your own label, Definitive Jux, in 1999. What was missing for you as an artist that you felt the need to take matters into your own hands and start the label?

EL-P: I just had my own perspective on the way I wanted to work in this industry and this business. How to be an artist and also be in control of whats going on around you always seemed synonymous to me. I dont think the artistic nature that I have really agreed with the structure of the business that I was involved in. I just wanted to create something that would allow me to do what I wanted to do, work with the people I wanted to work with and not have to deal with assholes on a daily basis. The greatest thing that can ever happen for an artist is to make money off of what he does for a living. One of the worst things that can happen for an artist is to all of a sudden be this little guppy in a fish tank full of piranhas.

EB: [Laughs] Right, you stand no chance.

EL-P: Yeah, and I had experience doing a bunch of different things in different scenarios, being on all different labels, putting my own records out. I just thought that -- even if it was ultimately to fail -- I wanted to attempt to create something that had a real soul behind it.

EB: Something that really mattered.

EL-P: It does matter. Its hard and its rare and, really, what it all comes down to is, I dont give a fuck about the business; I just give a fuck about the music. Creating something that was favorable to musicians -- a business structure that doesnt just naturally rape you -- was almost a radical idea, you know. It basically unfolded out of me wanting to do music with people I like.

EB: What are some of the challenges you face as an artist who started his own business and is now the head of a label, managing other artists? Has it been difficult to find a balance between art and commerce? Or has that come naturally for you?

EL-P: Its definitely not natural. It gets very difficult sometimes. Im not a businessman by nature. I was a businessman by

EB: Necessity?

EL-P: By necessity, yes -- to a degree. I mean, I chose it. I certainly could have dealt with other labels, but for me its one of the most satisfying things to be able to help people that I respect create careers for themselves and do what they love to do for a living. Its also really hard because I put myself out there as being the representative for all of this so when inevitably there are bumps in the road, or when something doesnt go according to plan, its very difficult. Im more connected emotionally to the whole thing than most people who own record labels. Thats been the most difficult thing for me. How do you tell your friend that his record didnt sell?

EB: Right

EL-P: You know, Ive spent a lot of time separating myself to a degree from a lot of the bullshit technical aspects of the label and just immersed myself in the vision aspect of it, the creation of the music and the sort of overall direction of the company. Ive got good people around me who kind of insulate me at this point from all the random day-to-day bullshit because Im an artist. I dont want to deal with all the bullshit, I just kind of have to.

EB: How hands-on are you involved with the artists on your label when it comes to making decisions about their records?

EL-P: It depends on the artist. With some of them Im incredibly hands-on. Like, I produced the whole Cannibal Ox record, did a lot of the production for the Mr. Lif albums, produced the majority and oversaw the Cage album. You know, Ive had my hands in a lot of peoples records and then there are artists like Aesop Rock who works with other people like Blockhead really closely. Rob Sonic produces all his own stuff. So it really just depends. Im basically just here for people. Different artists need different things. I like having artists in my camp who have very different crews of people that they work with. Im not trying to do a record label that all sounds like, Hey, its El-P again!

EB: Right, you dont feel the need to have your hands up in everybodys business all the time.

EL-P: No, no, I dont.

EB: Youve said that, with this label, trusting the artist is really important to you when it comes to people you work with. Would you agree that trust is a quality lacking in other kinds of musical endeavors these days?

EL-P: It is. You have to strike a balance between trusting an artist and also having your own gut instinct and knowing when to suggest another idea. You know what I mean?

EB: Sure.

EL-P: Its a tough thing and it can be sticky because, you know, you dont necessarily want to put yourself in that situation. A lot of people dont want to hear that type of thing. For the most part, the artists that I work with are really great and brilliant and have a lot of vision on their own. So if I can come in and help build it, thats cool, but I certainly dont feel the need to look over everyones shoulders.

EB: Right, its like finding the balance between being hands on but not applying too much pressure and strangling the creative life out of them.

EL-P: Exactly. Thats kind of what were going for. The only thing I can do is encourage someone to make the best record they can possibly make, to make the most passionate record, to make the most heartfelt record, to spend the most time and come up with the best music. The pop sensibility doesnt at all play into any factor on our label. I could never tell them, You need to make a radio song because that doesnt matter. Radio doesnt play what we do. People look to us for that real heartfelt stuff -- the shit that cant be provided by pop culture because pop culture demands that you polish things up and make it shiny and package it so that it can be sold to a variety of different people.

EB: Yeah, pop spreads itself very thin because it tries to be all encompassing.

EL-P: Exactly. Youre not necessarily going to throw an El-P record on when youre in the mood to dance. You might want to breakdance or something but if youre going out just to lose your mind and party, youre probably not going to throw my record on. At least Im not. It doesnt mean I dont like dancing it just means Im not making that shit. There have to be records out there [that provide] some balance. Thats what we do. We are another aspect of it. Everyone is different in the approach but everyone on this label makes heartfelt shit. I think kids connect with it because people are actually saying something. Everybody loves big budget action flicks but every once in a while you want to go see a drama. Something a little less flashy. Were offering something for those times and those moods when you dont necessarily want music to be disposable or something that you put on in the background. Weve got a stable of artists who are really serious about creating things and whether or not theyre serious in terms of the tone isnt really what its about. Were trying to provide a place where people can really sit and craft something that they think is beautiful and put it out to the public.

EB: Sure, like a safe haven.

EL-P: Yeah. When the head of the label is making the most fucked up music on the label, you know, I certainly couldnt be like, Hey Aesop, I think you really need to lighten up. [Laughs] I couldnt dare to say anything like that.

EB: Right, itd be like finding out your parents smoke weed after they just gave you a huge lecture on why you shouldnt smoke it.

EL-P: Exactly.

EB: One thing that disheartens me is when I hear people, especially young people say, Oh the state of the music industry todayId really love to do my own thing and have my own label but its not possible because Ill never make a living. I mean, its hard but it shouldnt stop them. There are some great examples out there of people doing what youre doing and actually making it work.

EL-P: Yeah, theyre getting fewer and fewer though. The industry is changing and the mechanism of the delivery of the music is changing. Its getting harder and harder to keep a label going. I mean, we have managed to do it. But, there are times when were just managing by the skin of our teeth. But thats something that Im cool with. Whatever the case is; if the ship were going to sink tomorrow I just want to know that I put my heart in it and that the records we put out we believe in. The artistic side is really the only important thing. The artists that were involved with, the people and the things theyre saying, you know, the label doesnt have to exist. The label doesnt even matter really but if it can matter in some way, it matters in the way that we get to expose you to these brilliant people that we love. My hope is to keep doing that.

EB: Youve said before that with Def Jux your interest is in expanding rap and being able to introduce it to people that may or may not have been introduced to it because of certain cultural parameters. Do you feel that you are still able to do that?

EL-P: I dont really have that as a goal. I just think that thats been kind of a cool side effect. The goal has always just been to make great records. But I think a lot of artists that we have, including myself, have become like a gateway drug to kids who are just getting into hip-hop. And, that I like doing. That I like being. I like seeing kids at the show who you can just clearly tell thats their first hip-hop show. Theyre 17-years-old and theyve heard something in Cage or Aesop or Lif or whoever that has actually made them perk up their ears and want to check it out. I think that theres something to be said for that. Hip-hop music has definitely been the love of my life. I have felt good in the fact that I feel like we provide other types of voices that arent just readily available on the radio, you know.

EB: Right. Last week I interviewed Aesop and we talked about whether or not hip-hop was becoming more about bravado and acrobatics rather than the music. What are your thoughts on that?

EL-P: Well, to be honest, in a lot of ways it always was about that. Were definitely no lack of testosterone and arrogance [laughs].

EB: [Laughs]

EL-P: For the first ten years of my career all I did was machismo, braggadocio -- all I did was want to prove what I was. Company Flow was all about that. It just got to the point simply as a writer for me where those battles were just too small. What I could take on as a person and what I needed to take on artistically was a lot more complicated than being a dope emcee. I think its a mistake for anyone to think that masculinity, machismo or a hard edge is something so easily identifiable as someone saying Im going to kill you or Im doper than you. Im pretty sure I have a legitimately sharp edge to my personality but the way that Im able to think about it right now and the way Im able to look at it and write about it has just become a different thing. The one thing you can expect from cats around us is that theyre going to be who they really are. Whatever phase that anyone may have gone through when they were younger when they wanted to project some sort of bulletproof personality, thats not as interesting to the people I work with anymore. Youre never setting yourself up for ridicule or defeat and a ticket to hell if youre being honest about what youre saying and when youre being real about who you are. No one can tell you shit if youre telling them exactly whats going on with you.

EB: Yeah, I dont really see it just specific to hip-hop. I mean whether youre a writer or a visual artist or whatever -- no matter what youre doing, everyone goes through a certain phase where they feel the need to project a bulletproof faade, especially if theyre a performer and putting themselves out there makes them feel exposed.

EL-P: Its called being young.

EB: Yeah.

EL-P: As I got into my late twenties that started to change for me a bit.

EB: Right. Well, its exhausting [laughs].

EL-P: Its exhausting and also you dont really feel the urge anymore to stick your chest out. You know, the imaginary masses that you are proving yourself to ultimately kind of fade away in your mind. I think a lot of times that whole phase in a musicians career, a writers career, or a rappers career is them honing their craft. Its like, Okay Im going to take this format and hone my craft and really just go all out and take these tools and figure out how to use them.

EB: Yeah and its also just establishing the parameters of your creative personality. Sometimes you have to project big in order to see if you are comfortable standing in those shoes and ask, Is this who I want to be?

EL-P: Yeah. With us, the guys I run with, youre dealing with a bunch of motherfuckers who are extremely confidant in who they are.

EB: Good, because if you dont believe in what you are doing then why should the audience?!

EL-P: Thats it, you know, thats it. Ultimately theres no philosophy that anyone or any group of people all share except trying to make that genuine shit and you can hear it. Kids can hear it. Music had such a huge influence on me as a person when I was growing up. Records were part of me, part of my emotional growth. Records I would listen to when I was angry or sad or that would just transport me somewhere, I think those records are equally as important as fun records and the great dance records and the pop records that you grew up with as well. Neither one is correct. Its just different voices. I think a lot of people make the mistake in assuming that what we do at Def Jux is some sort of middle finger to everyone elses music, you know. Thats really not what its about.

EB: Youre not doing it to disprove anyone or anything. Youre doing it for you.

EL-P: Exactly. Exactly.

EB: Something you mentioned before is that the reason Def Jux is important to you is because all your friends involved can provide both creative and emotional support for each other when things get crazy. You said that whats rad is that its more than just a career opportunity. I thought that was a really important point.

EL-P: Yeah, and its been a big part of who we are, all of us. As everyone grows, becomes their own thing, becomes their own entity and has their own hyper career -- that essence of how we all came together really just still exists and it means something, you know. With the artists on Def Jux, theres another element to the whole thing because all of this came out of friendships for me. Everyone on the label is a friend and thats been the greatest thing on the planet. Its also been one of the hardest things on the planet but I wouldnt change it. Its such a rare opportunity to be able to have that sort of vibe and its what I wanted out of dealing with art. I want to make money definitely, but I cant be just about that in any way. There has to be something a little bit more fulfilling going on.

EB: When you started the label did you get any lectures or warnings about mixing professional and personal?

EL-P: No, not really [laughs]. Actually, they should have fucking warned me. Ill tell you that much [laughs]. No, it wasnt really like that. Of course it can get hairy at times but the positive well outweighs any type of negative. Anyone whos on a record label, anyone who is dealing with this business, is going to have moments where something doesnt seem right. Is it better to have those moments with a complete stranger or is it better to have those moments with someone you know?

EB: Right, Id rather take the risk with someone I know personally.

EL-P: Right. I mean, its debatable I suppose. Its a fragile thing to a degree but its something thats really been important and worked for us.

EB: How do you deal with those tough situations when they come up, like if you have to tell a friend that his album didnt sell?

EL-P: You try to figure it out every day. Luckily I dont have the philosophy that its about one record selling, you know. Im trying to work with people to have long-term careers. Its music, its art -- if someone doesnt immediately have an incredibly successful career and is generating a lot of money, it seems like a pretty thin reason not to still be positive and try to figure out how to move forward. Eventually you might get to the point where its financially really difficult but those types of scenarios happen. You never know exactly how to deal with it, but you just deal with it. Im trying to use whatever my gut instinct is in order to do all that. I wish I had a fucking template.

EB: Its like being in a relationship. Like, hey, not every time you have sex with somebody is it going to be fucking mind blowing and fantastic. It doesnt mean you have to throw in the towel right away. It depends on the artist or the person and how much energy you feel is worth investing.

EL-P: No, the second that anyone doesnt blow my mind sexually, its over [laughs].

EB: Yeah, I bet. Im sure being the head of the label and involved with all the artists can curb the amount of time youre able to invest in your own music. Your latest album [Ill Sleep When Youre Dead] was your first in five years. Do you feel now you have a better pace for yourself and your own creative projects?

EL-P: I hope so. I mean, I dont have the typical artists career. One of the great things about just being a career artist is you basically just get to think of yourself all the time.

EB: I think most people do that anyway.

EL-P: A lot of people do. But when youre an artist you actually get to work on your art all the time and think about your career and think about whats the next step for you. Ive welcomed a different aspect to the way I live in that Ive become a little bit less important than I used to be in my head. Every time I think that its been difficult I just kind of remind myself that this is exactly what I wanted. But, yeah, I think that five years might be a little too long in between records. I think thats safe to say.

EB: No matter what you do, its going to be difficult. If you win the lottery, and never have to work again, thats going to be difficult. You can be a trash man, thats going to be difficult too. You might as well have a difficult time doing what you love.

EL-P: I might actually argue that winning the lottery might not be as difficult as you think.

EB: [Laughs] Well, who knows? Ive never known anyone who has won the lottery.

EL-P: Nor have I, but Im pretty sure I would be able to handle it.

EB: I never understand these people who win the lottery and then complain that everybody wants them for their money so they blow their heads off.

EL-P: [Laughs] Yeah, yeah. Its like a relatively consistent phenomenon, isnt itpeoples lives go down the shitter when they win the lottery.

EB: Yeah, the curse of the lottery. Obviously those people didnt do what I was going to do and buy a house in Italy and relax.

EL-P: Yeah, I know. I just dont see any problem with it. What is the problem?