Ant:DubtodaIll: Ant: DubtodaIll: And I suppose if you're nutty enough to hear the Deity these days then I can be surprised when you do nutty things.

If you believe in a deity, how can you possibly come to the conclusion that someone who claims to be hearing from it is nutty? Do you believe or not?

It's not nuts to believe in something greater than yourself. It's not nuts to recognize that living by the tenants of a major religion help to make you a successful individual. It is nuts to claim you actually hear that force speaking to your in your language just to you and only you can hear it.

I'm glad that you think that Abraham was insane when he tried to kill Issac. Am I the only one here who thinks that all the people who see this story as a positive message are freaking crazy?

"I didn't actually mean it, I just wanted to see if you would! Here, kill this defenseless animal instead, for I demand blood."

The correct response to that is to shop around for a new deity that doesn't play mind games.

hdhale:MyKingdomForYourHorse: Because a nation ruled by its religious principles always does well right?

*stares at the evangelical right

In 1950 it was possible to load up with enough firearms and ammunition, purchased by mail order (without a background check) to repeat any mass murder committed in the 20 years.

Yet people didn't do it. Back then, going to church on Sunday or synagog on Saturday was considered something you just did--it was expected and the vast majority of Americans worshiped God, put out religious displays on government property, and were not ambivalent about it.

Tell me more about how far we have progressed culturally as a nation since, given increased the increased secularization of society.

Young men commit these horrific crimes. The 1950's had a much lower proportion of these young men.Each decade from 1920 to 1940, the US Census reported that 18% of the population was between 15-24 years old. In 1950, it was 15%, and in 1960 it was 13% (see "population by age" at http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/hist_stats.html). Keep in mind that this drop was much, much larger among males than females.

There are a lot of effects of this type of massive demographic change. The most obvious one is that there are fewer young men to commit the crimes. A less obvious one is that employment is more readily available for the jobs that this demographic tend to look for. Both of these factors tend to drastically reduce the reported murder rate.

The overall homicide rate today is fairly close to the average homicide rate in the 1950s, and we've accomplished this without having to kill off an entire generation of young men to do it.

Your theory that increasing secularization causes (supposedly) higher homicide rates is not supported by the data.

I was being facetious. I agree that you don't have to be a Christian to denounce Islam, you probably just have to be an idiot.

[erbsegoesmmo.files.wordpress.com image 750x600]

This is called projection.

This is called willfully ignorant

/tolerance of evil is a crime

Of what am I being willfully ignorant? Try to avoid circular reasoning, ie Islam is bad because Islam is bad.

With you i will have to avoid all reasoning, you are being obtuse and either know it (trolling me) or believe it (dhimmi or fullblow member of the death cult)

/i know, i know, you saw on the internets right? Everything on the internet is true

I'm an atheist, and I'm not trolling nor being obtuse. I await your well crafted logical argument as to why Islam as a whole is bad. Keep in mind however, I've been dropping hints in this to the fact that most specious arguments supporting this conclusion can be used logically to "prove" that any religion is bad. If some bad Muslims make the whole religion bad, then some bad Christians make all of Christianity bad. I'm guessing the latter is your religion of choice, so perhaps a bit more scrutiny is required.

I dont have to craft a logical argument when reality does it for me. Educate yourself, get out of your moms basement and look arround at the world. Action speak louder than words so just view their actions and then i guess come to your own conclusion. Try taking 1 religion at a time and see how they behave and treat others instead of trying the "BUT MOMMY BILLY DID IT TOO!!" to try and justify current stupidity with historic stupidity. Your "some bad muslims" is like saying "some bad nazis"

Luminaro:What a bunch of A-holes. The people with farked up views of their religion all need to get infested with a paralyzing disease... Think how peaceful the world would be with no one angry at other people for not worshipping who they worship.

Bondith:I'm glad that you think that Abraham was insane when he tried to kill Issac. Am I the only one here who thinks that all the people who see this story as a positive message are freaking crazy?

"I didn't actually mean it, I just wanted to see if you would! Here, kill this defenseless animal instead, for I demand blood."

The correct response to that is to shop around for a new deity that doesn't play mind games.

The story takes on a slightly different tone when you realize that Ike was 40 and Abe was 140. Even if the ages aren't literal, Ike is middle aged and dear ol' dad is a geezer. If Ike had wanted to leave, he could very easily have overpowered the old man to do so.

The "test" was more of Isaac than of Abraham, and neither one objected ("they went up together" - as in "of one mind").

Ant:DubtodaIll: Ant: DubtodaIll: And I suppose if you're nutty enough to hear the Deity these days then I can be surprised when you do nutty things.

If you believe in a deity, how can you possibly come to the conclusion that someone who claims to be hearing from it is nutty? Do you believe or not?

It's not nuts to believe in something greater than yourself. It's not nuts to recognize that living by the tenants of a major religion help to make you a successful individual. It is nuts to claim you actually hear that force speaking to your in your language just to you and only you can hear it.

I'm glad that you think that Abraham was insane when he tried to kill Issac. Am I the only one here who thinks that all the people who see this story as a positive message are freaking crazy?

Again that goes back to being able to cherry pick stories and passages. If you take the story of Abraham and Isaac as a whole it's about obeying God in the fullest and he will show you grace and mercy. It's a story about having faith in what you believe. Yes in that story God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son, and Abraham goes through with it until the end where God stops him, is pleased by his faith, and then says sacrificing a sheep is good enough.Personally I don't take the stories in the Bible literally, I don't live in an agrarian society that lacks electricity and still does ritual animal sacrifices all the time. My argument here, pertaining to this news story, is that anyone who takes the time to sit and read an entire religious text and takes the time to contemplate the stories and what they mean, is probably not going to go out and shoot someone because they disagree with them.

DubtodaIll:Ant: DubtodaIll: And I suppose if you're nutty enough to hear the Deity these days then I can be surprised when you do nutty things.

If you believe in a deity, how can you possibly come to the conclusion that someone who claims to be hearing from it is nutty? Do you believe or not?

It's not nuts to believe in something greater than yourself. It's not nuts to recognize that living by the tenants of a major religion help to make you a successful individual. It is nuts to claim you actually hear that force speaking to your in your language just to you and only you can hear it.

How about this?I don't tell YOU WHAT TO BELIEVE.and you don't tell me WHAT NOT TO BELIEVE.Cool?

I was being facetious. I agree that you don't have to be a Christian to denounce Islam, you probably just have to be an idiot.

[erbsegoesmmo.files.wordpress.com image 750x600]

This is called projection.

This is called willfully ignorant

/tolerance of evil is a crime

Of what am I being willfully ignorant? Try to avoid circular reasoning, ie Islam is bad because Islam is bad.

With you i will have to avoid all reasoning, you are being obtuse and either know it (trolling me) or believe it (dhimmi or fullblow member of the death cult)

/i know, i know, you saw on the internets right? Everything on the internet is true

I'm an atheist, and I'm not trolling nor being obtuse. I await your well crafted logical argument as to why Islam as a whole is bad. Keep in mind however, I've been dropping hints in this to the fact that most specious arguments supporting this conclusion can be used logically to "prove" that any religion is bad. If some bad Muslims make the whole religion bad, then some bad Christians make all of Christianity bad. I'm guessing the latter is your religion of choice, so perhaps a bit more scrutiny is required.

I dont have to craft a logical argument when reality does it for me. Educate yourself, get out of your moms basement and look arround at the world. Action speak louder than words so just view their actions and then i guess come to your own conclusion. Try taking 1 religion at a time and see how they behave and treat others instead of trying the "BUT MOMMY BILLY DID IT TOO!!" to try and justify current stupidity with historic stupidity. Your "some bad muslims" is like saying "some bad nazis"

Some Muslims are bad therefore Islam is bad.

Speaking of bad nazis, are you aware that certain KKK white supremacist groups in the United States are openly Protestant? Since nazis and therefore neo-nazis are bad that means that Protestants are bad. Since Protestants are bad, Christians are bad.

Aarontology:the_foo: If they like fire and brimstone so much, we might as well send more drones to deliver it. The sooner all these jihadi savages are dead, the sooner the rest of Pakistan and the world can have peace.

Because nothing says peace like a foreign nation raining death from the skies

It's not ideal, but nothing else will satisfy these people so we might as well take the tax writeoff.

Theeng:I must confess, I have never understood the idea that removing a facet of human culture (like religion) could bring about peace or utopia. Humanity is flawed to it's very core, and civilization has mostly been the story of us trying desperately to succeed despite ourselves. Religion can cause us to ignore logic and reason, but it is hardly the only thing. Blaming the ills of the world on religion smacks of tribal thinking by itself. Perhaps I'm missing some perspective to see what others see.

Some people like to have One Idea that basically explains everything that's wrong with the world. Conspiracy nuts, religious fundamentalists, and even the hard-core New Atheists all imagine that there's this single One Bad Thing that explains it all, that is the source of all badness in the world, and if only this One Bad Thing could be removed/defeated, we'd be living in a utopia.

For fundamentalist Christians, the One Bad Thing is the lack of Jesus. For the hardcore New Atheists, the One Bad Thing is religion.

There's a certain appeal to the simplicity of this worldview. It makes this crazy world we all live in a lot easier to understand (or to convince yourself that you understand, at least), and it gives your life purpose.

NostroZ:For some reason there seems to be a lot more secular Christians than Muslims.

You know... practically speaking.

Have you ever wondered WHY? Christianity is not immune from religious people wanting to be the ultimate governmental authority. Currently, Dominionists are advocating the christian takeover of the country and installing a christian, rather than a secular government.

Actually, up until Henry II of England, it was a matter of common knowledge that clerical authority was superior to the state. There were practical difficulties controlling vast stretches of Europe via the Holy Roman empire and the direct authority of the church, but it was agreed that you didn't attack the church directly.

Then Henry II asked if someone could make the Archbishop of Canterbury disappear.

Sure, Hank had to say that he was really really sorry and all after that, but other princes around Europe realized that they could execute clergymen and not have their populations revolt. the catholic church realized this too... The church reacted more oppressively (inquisition, etc), however they understood they needed military power to enforce their will, and could not impose their will on powers strong enough to resist them militarily.When principalities/states became powerful enough, they started rebelling against the church through the Reformation.

The west is secular, not because christianity is a "nicer" religion, but because states are exercising authority over the church.

BTW, the RCC still doesn't like to recognize the supremacy of the state. One look at the child rape scandal and you see an institution that sees itself being above secular law.

Speaking of bad nazis, are you aware that certain KKK white supremacist groups in the United States are openly Protestant? Since nazis and therefore neo-nazis are bad that means that Protestants are bad. Since Protestants are bad, Christians are bad.

Some Christians are bad therefore Christianity is bad.

So by your logic, kkk bad so kkk leaders are bad so kkk leaders who were electd democrats in the senate are bad so all democrats are bad? Wow, huffing paint is no way to go throught life.

Like i said before but you just ignored, look at their actions today... they speak louder than words for those who want to learn. reality, how does it work?

maddogdelta:NostroZ: I don't see how you're hate is helping anything... or anyone.

Dude, are you trying to say you like child murderers? You are seriously farked up.

Oh, you... I truly wonder what goes on in your mind.

Does every person that you pose disturbing questions to and they refuse to participate automatically become a 'child murderer' in your mind? Or do you simply throw your internet tough guy weight around with these emotionally charged accusations in the hopes to make some human connection, no matter how charged?

Speaking of bad nazis, are you aware that certain KKK white supremacist groups in the United States are openly Protestant? Since nazis and therefore neo-nazis are bad that means that Protestants are bad. Since Protestants are bad, Christians are bad.

Some Christians are bad therefore Christianity is bad.

So by your logic, kkk bad so kkk leaders are bad so kkk leaders who were electd democrats in the senate are bad so all democrats are bad? Wow, huffing paint is no way to go throught life.

Like i said before but you just ignored, look at their actions today... they speak louder than words for those who want to learn. reality, how does it work?

This is your logic, not mine. I'm just pointing out as I have done so numerous times in this thread that it can be applied to Christianity just as easily as Islam. It's either valid in both cases or neither.

I didn't ignore your point. I used a counterexample to show that your argument doesn't stand up. You compared Muslims to Nazis. I brought up the point that there are actual nazis who are Protestant Christians. It is generally agreed upon that these are bad people who often do some really bad things to other people. Does that make all Protestant Christians bad? Similarly, if a subset of Muslims are bad, does this mean all Islam is bad? This is a very simple logical exercise, with one correct answer. If you cannot agree that the same logic applies in both situations, then you are using circular reasoning to prove your point, eg, Muslims are bad therefore Muslims are bad.

I was being facetious. I agree that you don't have to be a Christian to denounce Islam, you probably just have to be an idiot.

Yeah, criticizing a stone-age religion and how it's negatively affecting billions of people sure is idiotic.

That would be Middle age actually. If you were trying to make a point that the older a religion is, the more inferior it is, then clearly Islam is superior to Christianity.

Wait what? Christianity? I said nothing about Christianity. Way to be predictably knee-jerk though (but Christianity does it too!).

All religions should be criticized and ridiculed. The reason I said stone-age is because that's where its values are rooted.

That said, not all religions are equal. Western Christianity, is in my opinion, superior to middle-eastern/asian Islam. Just compare the value-systems of the west to that of the middle-east. Islam is also a political ideology.

By the way, I said nothing about Muslims, so the ridiculous straw men "lol some Muslims are bad therefore all Muslims are bad" isn't going to fly.

I was being facetious. I agree that you don't have to be a Christian to denounce Islam, you probably just have to be an idiot.

Yeah, criticizing a stone-age religion and how it's negatively affecting billions of people sure is idiotic.

That would be Middle age actually. If you were trying to make a point that the older a religion is, the more inferior it is, then clearly Islam is superior to Christianity.

Wait what? Christianity? I said nothing about Christianity. Way to be predictably knee-jerk though (but Christianity does it too!).

All religions should be criticized and ridiculed. The reason I said stone-age is because that's where its values are rooted.

That said, not all religions are equal. Western Christianity, is in my opinion, superior to middle-eastern/asian Islam. Just compare the value-systems of the west to that of the middle-east. Islam is also a political ideology.

By the way, I said nothing about Muslims, so the ridiculous straw men "lol some Muslims are bad therefore all Muslims are bad" isn't going to fly.

/Fark liberal apologists.

Well since it's your opinion, it must be true! No need to defend it with any sort of facts or logical argument. You have effectively argued that "my religion is better than their religion" which is truly profound, has never been stated by anyone before, and has really helped us understand these concepts. You may call it a strawman, but it is in fact the case that you are arguing either that "some Muslims are bad therefore all Muslims are bad" or "all Muslims are bad therefore all Muslims are bad". It would only be a strawman if it weren't effectively the argument you are making.

Age has nothing to do with it. Orthadox jews in Israel are trying to make secular Israel into a theocracy. Dominionists are trying to take over the United States. The RCC still insists on having its own country, and has never been happy with not physically ruling all it could rule.

The issue is which has more power to exercise authority. Islam has been very good in mainting the supremacy of the theocrats. When moslems come to the US, they learn that secular authority is primary, and they either adapt to that or get thrown in jail for honor killing their daughters.

Age has nothing to do with it. Orthodox jews in Israel are trying to make secular Israel into a theocracy. Dominionists are trying to take over the United States. The RCC still insists on having its own country, and has never been happy with not physically ruling all it could rule.

The issue is which has more power to exercise authority. Islam has been very good in mainting the supremacy of the theocrats. When moslems come to the US, they learn that secular authority is primary, and they either adapt to that or get thrown in jail for honor killing their daughters.

Right. Religious law is below federal law in America. That's why you sometimes will see a crazy cult that marries off their daughters at nine years old get raided by the FBI from time to time.

In Muslim countries, there is the concept of Sharia Law which is unique in that it SUPERSEDES civil law and it is the duty of a Muslim to bring about this type of government, to be imposed on others. There are gradients of Sharia (Hanbali, Hanafi, Manki, Sunni schools and the shiate Ja'Fari).

Yet, what remains similar is that in a Muslim country, there will be "decency laws" which often are biased against women, minorities, etc.

NostroZ:The same goes for Israel. They are mainly secular as a people, though Judaism is the preferred state religion.

In Muslim countries, there is the concept of Sharia Law which is unique in that it SUPERSEDES civil law and it is the duty of a Muslim to bring about this type of government, to be imposed on others. There are gradients of Sharia (Hanbali, Hanafi, Manki, Sunni schools and the shiate Ja'Fari)

The facts you are stating are in exact agreement with what I was saying. What you are forgetting is WHY christians and jews are living in secular countries and not theocracies.

In both cases, it is the primacy of the state, no church which guarantees this. If the church gets the power, it will exercise that power. Whether christian, moslim or jew.

maddogdelta:NostroZ: The same goes for Israel. They are mainly secular as a people, though Judaism is the preferred state religion.

In Muslim countries, there is the concept of Sharia Law which is unique in that it SUPERSEDES civil law and it is the duty of a Muslim to bring about this type of government, to be imposed on others. There are gradients of Sharia (Hanbali, Hanafi, Manki, Sunni schools and the shiate Ja'Fari)

The facts you are stating are in exact agreement with what I was saying. What you are forgetting is WHY christians and jews are living in secular countries and not theocracies.

In both cases, it is the primacy of the state, no church which guarantees this. If the church gets the power, it will exercise that power. Whether christian, moslim or jew.

I saw NostroZ's post earlier stating that Israel is a largely secular society, despite their state religion. Would it be accurate to summarize your position as stating that the Christian countries with state religions are more secular (perhaps due to age?), limiting their ability to legislate based on their religion?

Is maddogdelta's point that in the Christian countries, the secular governments have seized power from the church?

The really sad this is you're proud of that fact, like a kid who gets a big grin when his parents walk into the room and see he painted the walls with his poop.

They hate you, you know. These spittle-flecked, bath salt freaks you are so eager to defend would cut your f*cking head off given the chance. It's a shame that the only Americans willing to call them out for what they are are our own fundamentalist crazies.

I wonder what would happen if the USA ever had a secular leader in congress or the senate or (gawd forbid!) as the President? I'm guessing some tea party, white supremacist nut bags would at least take a shot at him/her.

hitlersbrain:I wonder what would happen if the USA ever had a secular leader in congress or the senate or (gawd forbid!) as the President? I'm guessing some tea party, white supremacist nut bags would at least take a shot at him/her.

There used to be atheists on the Red side of the aisle. One even ran for president; yes, as a Republican.

Pete Stark and Barry Goldwater - both served as recently as the Gipper's re-election (Stark served into the 00s if memory serves).

// irony: the teabaggers support the same Birchian economic philosophies as Goldwater (and Rand, who was a big-time atheist, but whatevs)// bonus irony: while also embodying his warning about "these preachers" getting ahold of the GOP

The really sad this is you're proud of that fact, like a kid who gets a big grin when his parents walk into the room and see he painted the walls with his poop.

They hate you, you know. These spittle-flecked, bath salt freaks you are so eager to defend would cut your f*cking head off given the chance. It's a shame that the only Americans willing to call them out for what they are are our own fundamentalist crazies.

The vast majority of Muslems really don't care one way or the other about me or you. If you visit their countries, they might . . . offer to sell you something. Pretty scary.

draypresct:I saw NostroZ's post earlier stating that Israel is a largely secular society, despite their state religion. Would it be accurate to summarize your position as stating that the Christian countries with state religions are more secular (perhaps due to age?), limiting their ability to legislate based on their religion?

Precisely.Christianity has flirted with state control as was the case with the Holy Roman Empire. This caused a schism between the east and west church, where in the east, the king still picked the high priest (vs. west where as you saw... white smoke from a group of priests in the Vatican). Now after the fall of Rome and the loss of the supremacy of the church there started a movement of reunification between the two ideologies.This reunification has been going on for more than 500 years now and in my opinion gets back to the roots of Christianity, where a poor carpenter can be the son of God (vs. Rome's Augustus, who was also then considered a son of god). By no longer having a state, as with Rome, Christianity had to go through the Protestant Reformation and become a more PERSONAL religion VS. a STATE one.

The Muslim faith has still not reconciled the Sunni v. shiate schism, nor have they found a way to divorce the religion from the state.

draypresct:I think you both might agree that there are a number of Christian and Muslem countries with state religions (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion#Christian_countries).

An interesting point regarding state religions is the church of england. Henry VIII and later Elizabeth I solidified the idea that the monarch is the head of the church. So the King/Queen could not be ordered around by a bishop, because the king/queen was the anglican "pope", making secular authority prime.

The pope didn't like this, which is why he told spain to deal with the situation, with rather disastrous results.

The really sad this is you're proud of that fact, like a kid who gets a big grin when his parents walk into the room and see he painted the walls with his poop.

They hate you, you know. These spittle-flecked, bath salt freaks you are so eager to defend would cut your f*cking head off given the chance. It's a shame that the only Americans willing to call them out for what they are are our own fundamentalist crazies.

The vast majority of Muslems really don't care one way or the other about me or you. If you visit their countries, they might . . . offer to sell you something. Pretty scary.

If people like the man in this video were rare extremists, their views would not be dominating and setting the tone of culture in all Muslim countries (except possibly Turkey and Malaysia.) Christians who hate birth control aren't able to prevent it from being sold because they are fringe extremists. This man represents the median of culture in the Middle East.

Here is an article summarizing Pew Research data among worldwide Muslims:

These numbers are nothing like Christianity. The closest equivalent American Christianity has to Islam would be the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church, which comprises a total of 30 people who have never actually acted in violence. It's no secret that I am a critic of all religion, and I frequently go up against the regressive influence that Christianity has on American culture, but when it comes to dread destructive forces in the 21st century, there can be no doubt that Islam is public enemy number one.

And I will preempt anyone who might call me a bigot by insisting that there is no such thing as bigotry against an idea or set of ideas. I am not a racist, and I have no quarrel with people of Arabic descent, so long as they are not Muslims. Saying that I don't like Muslims is no different than someone saying that they don't like Republicans.