Giants finally win, plus Bonds in 2008?

Barry Bonds reiterated to the Pittsburgh media on Monday that he plans to come back in 2008, but that next year would be his last. And the Mercury News’ Ann Killion on Monday wrote: Sue Burns – the largest shareholder in the Giants’ ownership group – expressed her deep devotion and admiration for Barry Bonds, a clear hint that Bonds will be back.

So this begs the question: should the Giants bring him back next year? It’s almost too early to talk about because we don’t know what Brian Sabean can do through trades or free agency. The real question is whether the Giants can find another player who would provide Bonds’ expected level of production. We tried last winter and failed miserably. Because of that, I can easily see him coming back.

I’m torn. I can’t imagine Bonds coming back because I want the team to turn the page and get younger. But I also can’t imagine the Giants without him since he’s the best run producer on this year’s squad. If the Giants can find a decent left field alternative, I’d be all for it. Sounds like we’re gearing up for a repeat of the “Will Bonds Re-sign” drama of last winter. Of course, that pesky grand jury could make the whole debate moot. Your thoughts?

The Pittsburgh series: Didn’t it seem like the Pittsburgh series – with the rainout-induced doubleheader tacked on – just would not end? Thank goodness the Giants managed to win 10-3 in the last game of the doubleheader. After the Pirates won the first game Monday, the Giants became the worst team in the National League for… oh… about three hours. Now we’re percentage points ahead of Pittsburgh again.

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Rajai Davis is impressive. He’s hustling. He’s making things happen. Besides Bonds, he’s the most exciting offensive player to watch right now. In the nightcap of the doubleheader, he walked to start the game, stole second and third and scored on a grounder. In the fifth inning, he frantically chased after a deep fly into left center field, and as he reached the warning track near the 410 foot sign, he made an all-out dive to make an amazing catch, robbing a double and preserving the 1-1 tie. In the 7th, he ran all out on a bloop to left center and turned a single into a double.

He’s on a six-game hitting streak, and since coming over to the Giants, he’s now batting .405, 15-for-37, with seven of those hits for extra bases. He’s also 8-for-9 in stolen base attempts. I know he can’t stay hot forever, but he’s making the most out of his opportunity.

Other bright spots: Noah Lowry wins his 13th and drops his ERA to 3.28. Ryan Klesko hits a grand slam. Dan Ortmeier smacks a two-run homer. In the first game, Poor Matt Cain pitched well enough to win, like Barry Zito on Sunday, but he lost again because of no run support. I bet during the second game, Cain thought, “Darn, I wish I started Game 2.”

Will Giants sign remaining first-round draft picks?: SFGiants.com reports that San Francisco’s attempts to sign two first round draft picks — pitcher Madison Bumgarner and outfielder Wendell Fairley – could go down to the wire. The deadline is Wednesday at 9 p.m. PT.

Next up: Three games in Atlanta. And only 44 more games left in the season.

Wylie Wong

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Rajai Davis is so fun to watch! He’s incredibly fast…and he can hit! And catch! I’m still amazed at that Matt Morris trade.

Bonds: I’d rather not have him back…way too much baggage. But who else will supply those 30 HRs? We have no other power hitters!

Sick of It

N-O-A-H!!

MidwestEd

Bringing Bonds back will clearly indicate where the Giants ownership think they are. Bonds only drew a slight interest from other teams before the start of this season. Bonds may have a year or maybe two left in his body as a DH in the American League.

If the Giant brain trust think they can not put a good team on the field then bring back the CANCER.

One thing the Giant brain trust had better keep in mind that some high quality FAs will have no interest in signing with the Giants as long as Bonds CANCER is present. They admire him for what he has done but they don’t want to be any part of problems he causes. So the longer the Giant brain trust play games about signing or not signing him will watch as other quality FA go to other teams.

Cancer here, Bonds is Leo

Very few, Kent excluded, that are high talent, mind putting up wins, stats and results around Bonds. Other than Alou, Kent was the only one to surround him that put up good numbers.

Find a high performer and he’ll be a top performer statistically hitting 3rd or 5th aroung Bonds. Just where is he though…there is so little free agent talent.

After an off year, we really should try to get Andrew Jones. And if Bonds is so interested in championship and 3000 hits, take a little and give us A-Rod. I’m not so much in favor of bringing back Barry, it’s just since the talent pool is so light for next year. Get an impact player that can be enhanced, and enhance Barry and improve the club. If can get two, fine, move Bonds along.

Consider this though, aren’t we angry more at the losses than having brought Bonds back? If the Giants had spent what they spent last year, and got Commers, players on the rise, we could have seen hope and been happy with Barry working that team up the ladder.

Rather, we got Veterans, with little rise to give, and underperformance, and we say, We spent too much on Bonds. Go get some talent Sabean, then Bonds will come back cheaper, because he can see winning. Or if not ‘bye, bye’.

But if you still have the same to lesser talent next year, let Barry close it out as Giants, and let the youth play. What else are you going to get excited about. Cain, Lincecum and Lowry losing 2 or 3 to 1 or 2 most games!

If you’re stuck with most of the other vets, get what you can get, rather than just a straight release. Try to bundle them, and get someone better, or see what they got on the field, not in the dugout, playing the “proven”,(that is proven loser vets, that are out there now!

AdamM

Stop Kissing Barry’s Butt. Send him out along with his recliner if he still has it in the clubhouse. Time to go youth movement. It would be exciting to watch Davis, Ortmeir, Timper, Schierholtz, Lewis in the starting lineup. Let’s see what they can do.

mills

Is no one concerned about the chance of not signing the 1st rounders?

Quartermiler

Wylie, thanks for the information and link about the deadline for signing draft choices. I wonder what Sabean would do with the 200K he’s saving with his negotiating stance against his 10th and 29th picks in June’s first round? Hopefully not performance bonuses for Aurilia, Roberts, Durham, Klesko, Zito, or his long-standing team of talent-evaluators.

http://yasfgb.blogspot.com/ Bryce Edwards

Considering the Giants passed on Beau Mills, a corner infielder with pop who’s already tearing up low-A ball for the Indians – I’d say the failure to sign these high-schoolers (who’ve all committed to colleges) is another reason we should dump Sabean – oh, wait a minute, didn’t he just get an extension? Never mind…

http://grahamrobinsoneastlink.ca Spud Islander

Bochy is a whimp or puppet for not starting Davis. Somehow I wxpected more from him, however Magowan is obviously more directly involved with regard to who sits and plays than I thought !

TrainWreck

I’m shocked, SHOCKED, at another bullpen disaster for the Giants. You mean Jack Taschner, Steve Kline, and Randy Messenger weren’t effective, shut-down pitchers?
You mean they failed to hold a lead or preserve a tie? Wow! What a stunning turn of events. I’m also SHOCKED to learn that the San Francisco Bay contains salt water. Who would have thought?

Tony C

I’m not a Bonds fan or hater, just for the record. I’m a realist and a Giants fan.

I’ve said for 10+ years that in MY opinion the Giants will never win with Bonds on their roster. Boy, I sure wish I had been wrong but it doesn’t look too promising. If BB is back next year we can stick a fork in us NOW.

2: can’t bring himself to taking a stinkin team photo with the rest of his teamates.

3: the negative press that comes with him has GOT TO BE a negative thing with a group of guys just wanting to win games.

4: his unwillingness to even TRY 1B as a position move, in order to keep his bat in the lineup, and save on the legs a bit. Perhaps if he HAD he might have fresher legs today and might now actually be a decent 1B.

5: he’s not even CLOSE to legitimate full time (defensive) player anymore even though his power numbers indicate he could still play as a DH in the AL.

All that being said, he’s by FAR the best offensive weapon the Giants have.

For my $, build around pitching, defense & speed. Obviously you need to have a couple of power bats at some point to compliment the lineup.

Build a team that understands the basics of FUNDAMENTALS. I’ve coached little league teams from 8-16 years old and MANY undestood the concept of team baseball better than the Giants of the last 3-4 years.

In a park like AT&T doubles/triples hitters are perhaps as valuable as guys who can go deep. Batters on base forcing pitchers into the stretch makes a big difference. Most pitchers are a lot less comfortable out of the stretch than they are out of the wind-up.

I think there needs to be a philisophical change to how they pitch to hitters in certain situations. I say try this at least ONCE before you discard it. When you come into a game and go strike 1, strike 2, please do NOT miss by TWO feet with back to back pitches putting yourself into a position to HAVE to groove something! As a WHOLE, work on throwing STRIKES, good lord! Zito, Cain, Sanchez, Chulk, Kline (tonight, walking lead-off guy in 4-4 game) Correia and insert anyone I missed here.

The game of baseball hasn’t been the same for me since ’94 when they had the lockout and cancelled the world series. Sadly, it never will be again and I truly feel for today’s kids who are NOT watching baseball as it once was not so long ago.

I will always be a Giants fan and have a love for the game, when played correctly, but someone explain to me how BB hitting 756 did absolutely nothing for me!?

Maybe the fact our bullpen coughed up yet another lead.

Hmm, Bonds homers, Giants lose……..I HOPE we don’t have to hear that beyond this season. I don’t care if he’s close to 3,000 hits or not, let him DH in NY or elsewhere.

Just MY .02 cents…………….

Section B, Row 1

Rajai Davis has done more than enough to earn a starting spot on this team. He is the only thing exciting and worth watching now that the homerun chase is over.

I don’t care if Roberts is healthy enough to start. Pull a Matt Morris and dump him for another Triple A kid. I’m sure a team like the Red Sox would love to have him back for the playoffs.

As for losing, its expected now. The bullpen blowing up doesn’t surprise me.

I’d really like to to see the young players get a chance to play more. The season was done months ago for the Giants.

Juan Marichal

BB should NOT be allowed to come back! He’s been a Cancer to this team! Bochy by kissing up to him and making excuses for him is tainted and should be fired! Rigs has got to go or else all of this young pitching talent goes down the toilet.
Unfortunately, due to monetary considerations of ownership and ineptitude of management, none of these suggestions will be heeded.

http://none AdamM what are you watching

Adam M, no one is kissing anyones butt, bonds is doing what he is expected to do. no one else is getting the job done. those young players that you named, all i see is a whole bunch of strike outs, ground balls, and misfielding, bonds may be a ahole but he is exciting to watch, baseball is such a bore to watch on tv, we need someone who can be entertaining and explosive, watching those players you named, i’d rather go to sleep.

http://none Bonds is not the problem

what people don’t realize is that the problem is not Bonds. Open your eyes people and stop listening to the damn media. The media has a personal vendetta against bonds, and dont let that perception judge the man. i think the Giants bad season is not Bonds fault, its poor management and bullpen. how many times have i watch the Giants have the lead only to have Bochy put Correia, Chulk, Taschner, Kline, Messenger out there over and over, only to lose the lead and lose another game. Come on im not stupid, i know what im watching, The giants bullpen is horrible and they are the worst relievers in the history of the game. Lets not blame this on Bonds, how many times does bonds get on base, a lot of times, Bonds and Molina are the only one producing. So if you have to hate on someone, take it on Bochy and the middle relievers, and the wannabe closers..thats why the season is down the drain

http://none Juan Marichal is wrong

Juan Marichal, Bonds is Cancer? What do you mean by that? Is Bonds responsible for the bullpen blowing another game? Is it Bonds fault Aurilia, Roberts, Durham and the rest of the guys cant hit. Is it Bonds fault that Zito sucks. Come on Juan Marichal, what exactly do you mean by Cancer? Do you mean Bonds ORA made this season a losing season? It’s very obvious that you are a big time bonds hater. I dont think that mad did anything to you or your family, quit hating and focus on the real problems that this team is having, thats the bullpen.

Juan Marichal

the giants will never be a real team with someone who gets special treatment on it. Mgrs can’t overcome the double standard.

Tony C

you’re missing the point attempting to be made completely…

I don’t think ANYONE is saying Bonds is the reason the Giants stink, he is hands DOWN the best offensive player this team has right now. The point is simply this: If you build around a guy who is NOT a team guy (from the acccounts we read/hear about) with a bunch of over the hill type players because “This organization owes Barry a chance to win a ring” then I think you’re going about it backwards and I think the other 24 guys have to feel like circus members. Have you not read that at times they can’t even walk through the locker room to shower and go home cause it’s so full with media?

Just because someone believes the team would be better off without Bonds in the future doesn’t make them haters.

Let me ask you this:
As much $ as the Giants have paid Barry (I AGREE they got it back many times over) if BB TRULY wanted to be a team guy, and help SF win a title, do you not think that at some point he might have settled for less so they could go out and get a guy they otherwise might not be able to get?

The other issue is this guy has drawn a BIG black eye on this franchise. I have no issue whatsoever with them moving a different direction and trying to rebuild it.

AdamM

All I can say is I am a Giants fan. I no longer live in the bay area,having left 13 years ago. So I do not listen to KNBR or watch the games on KTVU. I had the major league package earlier this year, but cancelled because I couldn’t stand the way the Giants were losing. I also watched 13 games in a row on national t.v. during Bond’s homer chase. So I do not know first hand the pain you guys have of seeing them lose the way they do. It is a mess, that’s for sure. Bonds is the only real attraction, but is he worth it? Look at the record. True, he doesn’t pitch and strike out and hit weak grounders. But to have your best player be 43 going on 44, what does that tell you? A combination of things need to happen. 2 or 3 decent, halfway young free agents to replace what is there. Aurilia, Klesko, Roberts, Kline, Durham have got to go. Davis looks like a keeper. Wynn, Feliz, Molina, Vizquel are fine with 2 or 3 great players with them. Texieira, A-Rod, would look good in Giant uniforms.

Judging by some of the comments to my responses in recent weeks, it looks like I am washed up to. Maybe I will cheer for the D-backs or Rockies. No I will go to my grave a life long Giants fan for better or worse.

Go Gigantes

I agree, it isn’t Barry’s fault the Giants are losing. But, his salary has kept management from obtaining talent to improve the team. If they bring Barry back, I will not support them and every fan of the Giants needs to show management their disgust by not renewing their season tickets, boycotting games, writing to ktvu and tell them that we aren’t going to watch the games, whatever it takes to show these idiots that we, the fans, deserve better.

Tony C

Gigantes: IF you are a Giants fan, you WILL watch, admit it.

As for not renewing tickets, boycotting games, writing KTVU it won’t make a bit of difference. You won’t get enough people to do it to make any difference at all.

As for Barry’s contract keeping them from getting other players, I can give you 126 Million resons why that statement doesn’t hold much water here of late.

The single biggest reason, in MY opinion, that the salaries bite them in the butt is the fact we don’t have many young guys, who actually contribute regularly, that are making the major league minimum or fall into that less than 3 years ML experience category. Clarification: Offensive young guys

How many young guys at 380K/yr could you have on your roster for the money we’re paying say Ray Durham? Rich Aurilia? Dave Roberts? Randy Winn? I used to add Pedro Feliz to this group but relative to what guys are making these days, Feliz may actually be a bargain if you compare numbers. Before anyone bites my head off for that statement, all I’m saying is Feliz is what he is. About a .240-.265 hitter, 20-30 HR/Yr and 80-100 RBI. Good hands at 3B and poor plate discipline.

As long as we go the route of filling in with journeymen players or players in the twilight of their careers, which fall into our budget, this formula will most likely fail. Once in a while it works but you need more than just one offensive star in your lineup. For example, when Jeff Kent was here he and Barry complimented and protected each other in the lineup and you could fill in with these other journeymen at a position or two.

In a nutshell the Giants trot out anywhere from 4-7 positions DAILY where there is little if any fear in the opposing pitcher when these guys come to the plate. Respect them as big leaguers? Yes, but not fear them, at least not in MY opinion.

Tony C

Good News from espn.com:

The Giants agreed to deals with both of their first-round picks before Wednesday’s deadline, locking up 10th overall selection Madison Bumgarner and 29th pick Wendell Fairley.

Bumgarner is a left-handed pitcher who helped his North Carolina high school to the state championship in 2007. The 6-foot-4, 215-pound pitcher was 11-2 with a 1.05 ERA, striking out 143 batters and walking just 11 in 86 1/3 innings.

Fairley, a 6-foot-2, 190-pound outfielder, helped his Mississippi high school to the state final in 2007. The left-handed batter hit .538 with nine homers.

Go Gigantes

Tony, I agree with you on Pedro. I’ve got to think that he will get more disciplined at the plate. And true enough, I probably will take a peek now and then. And I was going to add something about apathy to the end of my post, but changed my mind. I see your point and agree about paying all those other “twilighters” as worse than keeping Barry, But the issue in question was bringing back Barry which I’m dead set against. And, I think you have to give the younger guys a chance to play every day, not just 1 or 2 times a week, so they can get comfortable and start showing what they can do. That would mean unloading all the other dead weight (twilighters)

Sick of It

With the signings of Madison Bumgarner and Wendell Fairley, the Giants have now inked all six of their top picks in the 2007 draft. If Dick Tidrow has done his job and these guys can actually play above AA ball, then this may be a sliver of light in this wreckage of a season.

Now Bochy needs to give up his addiction to veterans and play Rajai Davis everyday, against right-handers and left-handers. The front office must burn up the phone lines trying to move Durham, Klesko, Aurilia, Roberts, Kline, and (please God!!) Chulk. Eat salary. Take a bag of diamond dust, three broken bats, and two resin bags in return. Make a smart choice on the player coming back in the Sweeney deal. Then get ready for an absolutely critical off-season where every decision will weigh on the future of the franchise.

http://yasfgb.blogspot.com/ Bryce Edwards

Good news about signing those picks…

Bonds shouldn’t, and won’t, be back in ’08. He’s expensive, severely limited by age, and easily neutralized offensively. The Giants have numerous options in the outfield, though admittedly, none are run producers. Personally I hope Bonds goes to the A’s, but it’ll be a matter of accepting a lot less money.

There was a school of thought in ’04 that Bonds’ contract limited the Giants ability to sign Vlad…Sabean famously referred to those of us clamoring for the deal as “The Lunatic Fringe”, yet, just three years later they can offer Zito a contract valued at almost twice as much!!! Forget it!!! I’m not buying any budgetary excuses after the Zito deal. IMHO, not signing Vlad was as much of a setback as the Joe Nathan trade, in terms of protecting Bonds and mitigating his injuries.

Magowan and Baer should pay Zito themselves, starving to death if necessary.

Sick of It

Bryce, you’re right on the money with your observation about the deleterious effects of the Giants’ failure to sign Vlad Guerrero, at a time when they had both the money and a Dominican manager to help lure him here. The decision was short-sighted in the extreme and the team is still suffering the consequences, and will for years to come. Ask yourself: if the Giants had Vlad, would they have signed Roberts, Klesko, and Aurilia, or re-signed RayRay to his albatross of a contract? Maybe one or two of them would have been signed anyway, but the team wouldn’t be saddled with all four of those deadweights. And the post-Barry rebuilding process would look a heck of a lot different than it does now.

willy-boy

You have the best hitter ever in the twilight of his career. He can still hit with the best of them and is more productive than 90% of everyday players. You would be a fool not to want his talents in any lineup in the majors. Don’t listen to the media they have never liked him and would not be able to give and unbiased view of his talents. Keep Bonds but give him some help(more than he has received in the last 3 years). The Giants need some more hitting and better relief pitching. I think that any team would be better with the best hitter in history. Look at the mans records.

Sick of It

FREE VINNIE!

Tony C

The ownership has gotten HAMMERED on not signing Vlad but there are a couple of things to keep in mind.

1: Vlad had/has a history of back problems

2: Vlad has possibly the most violent swing in the game which can NOT be good for a bad back

Considering they were already in the middle of paying Nen for 2 years of not pitching I think they MIGHT have been overly cautious.

Let’s be honest, assuming they HAD signed Vlad and he went down with a major back injury, MANY of those who are saying we should have signed him would be saying “Of course he’s out with a bad back, he had a history of back troubles and our stupid management signed him anyway.”

Hindsight makes us ALL much smarter…….

Tony C

Willy: With all due respect it used to be a quality start was a measure of if a PITCHER could go 6 innings and give up less than 3 runs, we might be approaching the “Quality Start” for Barry as well 6 Innings & 3 AB’s.

Why does everyone think that if someone isn’t ga-ga over Bonds that it’s the medias fault?

As far being “a fool” goes, as you stated in your post, go ahead and build a team around Barry at age 43/44 and see which of us wears the “fool” label better. If we couldn’t win when he was in his PRIME building around him, how on earth are you going to do it NOW?

Gary D

I typically don’t weigh in on the Bonds discussion – for whatever reason I generally don’t find it a compelling subject. I guess today is the exception. As I see it, while he does get walked a lot and will hit the occassional long ball, he is not driving in runs at the clip that is needed from the four spot. And I don’t really want to hear about lack of protection and pitches, because I’ve witnessed many many occassions this year, with men on base, that he simply has not been able to come through when pitched to. 56 RBIs at this point of the season? Even the oft bashed Durham has more than that (58), and he’s not supposed to be anywhere near Bonds as a run producer. Even when Bonds was closer to his prime, I often felt we had to rely on the Kents and Burks of the team to get the big, clutch hit. If Bonds had come back this year for much less than the gargantuan contract he got, maybe I cut him a bit more slack. He got his record, told us how much he loves us and gave the thrill seekers what they were looking for. Now, we’re just about the worst franchise in baseball. It’s time for him to move on, along with all of the other past their prime players. It’s business. Plain and simple.

Sick of It

But Tony C., the problem with your argument is that Vlad has NOT gone down with a back problem since signing with Anaheim/LA. Here are his HR/RBI/BA stats with the Angels:

Vlad has played in 94% of all Angels games since the start of the 2004 season, missing significant time (21 games) only in 2005.

Vlad’s numbers and his rocket throwing arm would look pretty good in right field for the Giants, and hitting behind Barry in the lineup. Failure to even attempt his signing was and is a major failure of planning and imagination.

Quartermiler

Good news about the signings, if only they had signed 6 weeks ago, they could have started in the system this year, rather than waiting until the Az Fall League. Let’s hope some of the guys from this draft can play. Hope springs eternal.

There’s no question Bonds is a better individual hitter than anyone else on the Major League roster, the better question is whether he produces more wins than his possible replacement (Rajai, Ortmeier, Timpner, Schierholtz, Freddie, or free agent) and to throw an efficiency parameter in there, per dollar of salary.

Any start given to Ortiz or Zito, any relief appearance given to Atchison (at 31, no longer a prospect – unless you consider Tyler Walker a prospect) or Kline, any game appearance by Aurilia, Roberts, or Durham is simply depriving a real prospect the opportunity to develop for the future. At 50 – 70, 16+ games out and falling further behind, what are Magowan, Baer, Bochy waiting for? The tickets are already sold, the television contract is already set, so the revenue is relatively fixed.

There’s not that much of a talent difference between the first and second pick in next June’s draft.

Tony C

Sick of It: would you be patting them on the back as hard as you’re pointing a finger if they HAD signed him and he did have back injuries? My GUT tells me they’d have goten racked over the coals since he HAD history with it. Heck, there were people ticked off at Robb Nen for not pitching for 2 years when it was due to being totally overused.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d LOVE to have seen us go after Vlad, I was only pointing out that after the fact we’re ALL geniuses AND it’s not as cut and dry as to why they didn’t go after Vlad.

Sick of It

Tony C., you’re right that hindsight is 20/20. There’s no way to know how we’d have reacted if they’d signed Vlad and then he’d gotten hurt. I doubt fans would have blamed the Giants for trying; I think we’d have wrung our hands and moaned about what rotten luck it was that such a terrific player got hurt. But Angels fans can clap their hands because he ain’t hurt and he’s still great and he plays for their team and not the Giants. So when I think of Vlad Guerrero and the Giants I think of the poet Wordsworth, who said:

Of all sad words of tongue or pen
The saddest are these:
What might have been.

Tony C

Sick of it: We agree more than you might think on this

I just try and point out both sides

Sparedog

I’ve read a lot of good points here. The one free agent I think would help the Giants is Tory Hunter. He’s excellent defensively in center, can hit for average and has some power. I’d rather see him than Andruw Jones, whom pitchers seem to have figured out this season. He’s looked clueless at the plate this year. As far as Bonds goes, I think it’s time to ‘cut the cord’. Let him finish up as a DH in the American League, and turn the page already. I think fans would put up with a couple of lean years with new, young players who have upside, rather than old players who are on the way down. This should be an interesting and active winter.

lfrahm

It’s been a pleasure watching Barry Bonds play for the Giants but I think it’s time for him to move on to DH in the American League. Even though he is the Giants best offensive threat he is also becoming a defensive liability in left field. He is no where near the fielder he was and how many runs will he allow because he can’t get to a ball a much younger fielder would reach? His throwing arm is also suspect now. I would still enjoy watching him hit but is is becoming painful to watch him play left field.