i love how there's a lawsuit pending at this moment where several past and current NCAA athletes are suing the NCAA for using their likeness in video games (former UCLA star and NBA washout Ed O'Bannon is the plaintiff of record, i believe, and just last week a couple of current UofA Wildcats joined the suit, although there are others).

so i guess for-profit schools are an affront to NCAA bylaws, but the NCAA can pocket cash from using athlete's likenesses in vidya games. perfectly reconcilable positions.

Why aren't college sports programs like basketball and football just declared Pro Minor Leagues, receive funding from the NBA and NFL, and all the students are exempt from normal curriculum, and instead receive life coaching, financial management coaching, and other relevant training?

The pretense that college athletics are some sort of amateur competition just to earn glory for their school is so completely false it's ridiculous.

markie_farkie:Why aren't college sports programs like basketball and football just declared Pro Minor Leagues, receive funding from the NBA and NFL, and all the students are exempt from normal curriculum, and instead receive life coaching, financial management coaching, and other relevant training?

The pretense that college athletics are some sort of amateur competition just to earn glory for their school is so completely false it's ridiculous.

For most college athletes the reason they play is for love of the game, or because playing for the school was their ticket to a free education. The vast majority of college athletes, including football and basketball players, will never play professionally. Even at the biggest sports schools the majority of the athletes know they aren't headed for the pros, and the percentage that have a chance to play professionally just goes down as you go through the mid-major conferences to the minor conferences and then into D2, D3, and the NAIA.

The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports. Turning the NCAA into some minor-league for the NFL and NCAA would be a disservice to the vast majority of student athletes.

TuteTibiImperes:markie_farkie: Why aren't college sports programs like basketball and football just declared Pro Minor Leagues, receive funding from the NBA and NFL, and all the students are exempt from normal curriculum, and instead receive life coaching, financial management coaching, and other relevant training?

The pretense that college athletics are some sort of amateur competition just to earn glory for their school is so completely false it's ridiculous.

For most college athletes the reason they play is for love of the game, or because playing for the school was their ticket to a free education. The vast majority of college athletes, including football and basketball players, will never play professionally. Even at the biggest sports schools the majority of the athletes know they aren't headed for the pros, and the percentage that have a chance to play professionally just goes down as you go through the mid-major conferences to the minor conferences and then into D2, D3, and the NAIA.

The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports. Turning the NCAA into some minor-league for the NFL and NCAA would be a disservice to the vast majority of student athletes.

NCAA hoops/football are already minor leagues for NBA/NFL. If fans really gave a shiat about all this, they'd demand that the NFL and NBA invest in their own sports and produce their own robust, stratified, minor league systems like the NHL and MLB have had for so long. NFL/NBA have been suckling off the teats of the universities, refusing to provide their own supply for the ridiculous demand for post-h.s., pre-professional basketball and football. Big business loves its socialism.

TuteTibiImperes:The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports. Turning the NCAA into some minor-league for the NFL and NCAA would be a disservice to the vast majority of student athletes.

You obviously aren't aware of the dirty secret of athletic scholarships: most of them aren't full-ride any more. More and more schools are taking their scholarship limit, especially in the "Olympic sports", and breaking them into half-scholarships for twice as many kids. And before you say "well at least they're getting something", remember that they still have to follow NCAA rules which pretty much mean they can't even get so much as a free sandwich at a student event without the school being hit with "extra benefits" claims. A lot of the half-scholarship athletes would be better off just going through regular financial aid. Hell, at our school the "discount rate" is over 50% (i.e., the average student pays less than half of the tuition sticker price).

gameshowhost:TuteTibiImperes: markie_farkie: Why aren't college sports programs like basketball and football just declared Pro Minor Leagues, receive funding from the NBA and NFL, and all the students are exempt from normal curriculum, and instead receive life coaching, financial management coaching, and other relevant training?

The pretense that college athletics are some sort of amateur competition just to earn glory for their school is so completely false it's ridiculous.

For most college athletes the reason they play is for love of the game, or because playing for the school was their ticket to a free education. The vast majority of college athletes, including football and basketball players, will never play professionally. Even at the biggest sports schools the majority of the athletes know they aren't headed for the pros, and the percentage that have a chance to play professionally just goes down as you go through the mid-major conferences to the minor conferences and then into D2, D3, and the NAIA.

The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports. Turning the NCAA into some minor-league for the NFL and NCAA would be a disservice to the vast majority of student athletes.

NCAA hoops/football are already minor leagues for NBA/NFL. If fans really gave a shiat about all this, they'd demand that the NFL and NBA invest in their own sports and produce their own robust, stratified, minor league systems like the NHL and MLB have had for so long. NFL/NBA have been suckling off the teats of the universities, refusing to provide their own supply for the ridiculous demand for post-h.s., pre-professional basketball and football. Big business loves its socialism.

The stiffest competition against the NFL starting its own minor league would come from the biggest and more influential football schools. The NFL absorbing the top talent right out of high school would drop Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, etc, much closer to the level of Troy State, Youngstown State, and Central Michigan.

Personally, I wouldn't be against that - the NFL could have their top end minor league, and it would level the playing field between the top BCS schools and the rest of Division 1 Football. The FBS and FCS could merge together and there could be an actual playoff process across D1 football with all teams having a legitimate chance at the trophy.

So there is literally NO state in which the highest government employee is NOT employed by a college? And damned few in which it is not a coach? Do you have the raw data for that? I'd like to pass it along to a few folks.

gameshowhost:TuteTibiImperes: markie_farkie: Why aren't college sports programs like basketball and football just declared Pro Minor Leagues, receive funding from the NBA and NFL, and all the students are exempt from normal curriculum, and instead receive life coaching, financial management coaching, and other relevant training?

The pretense that college athletics are some sort of amateur competition just to earn glory for their school is so completely false it's ridiculous.

For most college athletes the reason they play is for love of the game, or because playing for the school was their ticket to a free education. The vast majority of college athletes, including football and basketball players, will never play professionally. Even at the biggest sports schools the majority of the athletes know they aren't headed for the pros, and the percentage that have a chance to play professionally just goes down as you go through the mid-major conferences to the minor conferences and then into D2, D3, and the NAIA.

The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports. Turning the NCAA into some minor-league for the NFL and NCAA would be a disservice to the vast majority of student athletes.

NCAA hoops/football are already minor leagues for NBA/NFL. If fans really gave a shiat about all this, they'd demand that the NFL and NBA invest in their own sports and produce their own robust, stratified, minor league systems like the NHL and MLB have had for so long. NFL/NBA have been suckling off the teats of the universities, refusing to provide their own supply for the ridiculous demand for post-h.s., pre-professional basketball and football. Big business loves its socialism.

The link website is much too high-brow for the Fark bunch. They'll probably wonder where the beer cans and cigarette butts in their server cache originated.

Regarding profitability of schools - if one thinks public schools are not for profit, check out the bookstores selling ridiculously priced "textbooks" authored by teaching staff, external contracts supporting athletic programs, research dollars being pissed away by greedy profs who are not adequately held accountable. Then when they blow all the state funds on boondoggles and inept professors, they raise tuition 7% in one year.

TuteTibiImperes:markie_farkie: Why aren't college sports programs like basketball and football just declared Pro Minor Leagues, receive funding from the NBA and NFL, and all the students are exempt from normal curriculum, and instead receive life coaching, financial management coaching, and other relevant training?

The pretense that college athletics are some sort of amateur competition just to earn glory for their school is so completely false it's ridiculous.

For most college athletes the reason they play is for love of the game, or because playing for the school was their ticket to a free education. The vast majority of college athletes, including football and basketball players, will never play professionally. Even at the biggest sports schools the majority of the athletes know they aren't headed for the pros, and the percentage that have a chance to play professionally just goes down as you go through the mid-major conferences to the minor conferences and then into D2, D3, and the NAIA.

The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports. Turning the NCAA into some minor-league for the NFL and NCAA would be a disservice to the vast majority of student athletes.

I kinda like the way hockey does it (despite all its faults). Create a junior-level competition for the best kids age 16-20, pay them a little money and treat them like minor leaguers. The ones not good enough or the ones with a borderline chance at pro-levels go NCAA. If a junior player isn't good enough to go pro, give him a scholarship to go to to school afterwards.

TuteTibiImperes:The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports. Turning the NCAA into some minor-league for the NFL and NCAA would be a disservice to the vast majority of student athletes.

Rebuttal:

I was paid as a grad student to be a researcher, which was basically employment as a minor league engineer on behalf of some external industry company who out-sourced research to my prof.

How is that different than being an NCAA athlete, except I made less money for my school than the football team did, and the NCAA didn't care that I was paid?

markie_farkie: "Why aren't college sports programs like basketball and football just declared Pro Minor Leagues, receive funding from the NBA and NFL, and all the students are exempt from normal curriculum, and instead receive life coaching, financial management coaching, and other relevant training?"

Because the pleasant fiction sells a shiat-load more tickets than minor league sports.Students, Alumni and their families will buy tickets and merch to an irrational degree due mere tribal association, making the current configuration the best one for profit maximization.

To say nothing of the follow-on effect for schools, in using the visibility of those programs to sell the 'college dream' to prospective students and their families, nor the alumni that defray costs via their donations and provide a network of influential people in a position to help on various particular issues due (again) no real reason but tribal association.

/ just *float the idea* of shuttering the football program see whether the alumnus in local government are as co-operative on your next visit to the zoning board.

Because they are worth billions of dollars to televise, and they don't have to give one cent of that to the people playing the games

They also provide entertainment to the alumni and foster a connection with the school that leads to increased donations to areas outside of athletics, the enhance the campus atmosphere and help foster a sense of school spirit amongst students, and they trace their roots back to the earliest days of education in which students were expected to enhance themselves mentally, physically, and artistically.

I'm not saying that there aren't problems that need to be addressed, but overall they do a lot of good, and a lot of people enjoy them, hence the popularity.Student athletes are paid via an opportunity to learn and a scholarship. They get to take advantage of training facilities, have access to coaches to develop their skills, and given the motivation they can earn a degree to support themselves if the trip to the pros doesn't work out, or if they know, as most do, that it will never be in the cards anyway.

TuteTibiImperes:The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports.

In and of itself I've got no problem with this. Hell, I enjoyed cheering on my D-III school's shiatty teams to victory a smaller margin of defeat, and I don't think I'd have felt radically different if I'd attended a school that gave out athletic scholarships.

But the only way to reach that goal you're talking about ethically is to ban recruiting and erect a firewall between admissions, financial aid, and the athletic department. That would mean no recruiting of athletes, no assistant coaches in the stands at high school games. Welcome to UNC, young Michael Jordan. Congratulations on meeting our admissions standards. Oh, you say you want to try out for the basketball team? The signup sheet is over there. Or, you could, you know, join the chess team or the Campus Republicans. Whatever floats your boat. The important thing is that you're here to get a good education.

Not for a hot minute do I believe such a system could ever work in practice. It'd be inconvenient at best for the students, it'd be an impossible temptation for the athletic departments, and it'd deprive universities of some window-dressing in terms of economic and minority outreach. But that is how it'd have to look, if it were honest and ethical and built around the 99.95% of student athletes who don't go pro, as opposed to the 0.05% who do.

drunk_bouncnbaloruber:TuteTibiImperes: markie_farkie: Why aren't college sports programs like basketball and football just declared Pro Minor Leagues, receive funding from the NBA and NFL, and all the students are exempt from normal curriculum, and instead receive life coaching, financial management coaching, and other relevant training?

The pretense that college athletics are some sort of amateur competition just to earn glory for their school is so completely false it's ridiculous.

For most college athletes the reason they play is for love of the game, or because playing for the school was their ticket to a free education. The vast majority of college athletes, including football and basketball players, will never play professionally. Even at the biggest sports schools the majority of the athletes know they aren't headed for the pros, and the percentage that have a chance to play professionally just goes down as you go through the mid-major conferences to the minor conferences and then into D2, D3, and the NAIA.

The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports. Turning the NCAA into some minor-league for the NFL and NCAA would be a disservice to the vast majority of student athletes.

I kinda like the way hockey does it (despite all its faults). Create a junior-level competition for the best kids age 16-20, pay them a little money and treat them like minor leaguers. The ones not good enough or the ones with a borderline chance at pro-levels go NCAA. If a junior player isn't good enough to go pro, give him a scholarship to go to to school afterwards.

and Yale won the hockey championship. Those kids actually have to go to school

markie_farkie:Why aren't college sports programs like basketball and football just declared Pro Minor Leagues, receive funding from the NBA and NFL, and all the students are exempt from normal curriculum, and instead receive life coaching, financial management coaching, and other relevant training?

The pretense that college athletics are some sort of amateur competition just to earn glory for their school is so completely false it's ridiculous.

That's only true of football, basketball and to a lesser extent baseball and hockey, and only at the Division I level. Ninety-nine percent of college athletes in MAJOR sports never go pro (except for baseball, where most of the "professionals" never make it out of the minor leagues), and most of the athletes in minor sports aren't even on scholarship.

So there is literally NO state in which the highest government employee is NOT employed by a college? And damned few in which it is not a coach? Do you have the raw data for that? I'd like to pass it along to a few folks.

semiotix:TuteTibiImperes: The opportunity to earn an degree and graduate debt free is a huge incentive, and the majority of student athletes take advantage of that and go on to careers outside of professional sports.

In and of itself I've got no problem with this. Hell, I enjoyed cheering on my D-III school's shiatty teams to victory a smaller margin of defeat, and I don't think I'd have felt radically different if I'd attended a school that gave out athletic scholarships.

But the only way to reach that goal you're talking about ethically is to ban recruiting and erect a firewall between admissions, financial aid, and the athletic department. That would mean no recruiting of athletes, no assistant coaches in the stands at high school games. Welcome to UNC, young Michael Jordan. Congratulations on meeting our admissions standards. Oh, you say you want to try out for the basketball team? The signup sheet is over there. Or, you could, you know, join the chess team or the Campus Republicans. Whatever floats your boat. The important thing is that you're here to get a good education.

Not for a hot minute do I believe such a system could ever work in practice. It'd be inconvenient at best for the students, it'd be an impossible temptation for the athletic departments, and it'd deprive universities of some window-dressing in terms of economic and minority outreach. But that is how it'd have to look, if it were honest and ethical and built around the 99.95% of student athletes who don't go pro, as opposed to the 0.05% who do.

I don't see the problem with recruiting and offering scholarships based on athletic talent. The students still need to meet admissions criteria at most institutions (some are more willing to waive or bend the rules than others) and they still need to be enrolled in classes and maintain a certain GPA (and yes, some schools certainly cheat the system, the majority don't). The NCAA has rules, such as the APR (which is unfortunately broken in a few ways and needs a revamp) to penalize schools whose athletes don't graduate or pass at a high enough rate.

Outside of the top BCS schools most institutions aren't making money directly off of football programs.

Killer Cars:vudukungfu: Yeah, but you jibe bounces off me like as if flung upon a realdoll.The problem with it being homoerotic is how many surfactant homophobes are fans.That is the real crux of the biscuit.

This has to be the first time in the history of the internet someone used the phrase "surfactant homophobes" in a thread relating to collegiate athletics.