Want another analogy? Israel has over 5 times as many UN violations/resolutions accused on it than the entire reign of Libya's Mommar Qaddafi. When CIA-Mossad fabricated and backed NTC Terrorists attacked the Libyan government in strategic locations and Qaddafi struck back, Qaddafi was the Bad Guy. When the World's largest Concentration Camp (GAZA) is struck by Israeli Drones and War Planes, and children are killed, the Pasteurization are the Bad Guys.

This is how the New World Order works.

source?

A society that places equality before freedom with get neither; A society that places freedom before equality will yield high degrees of both

It's my understanding that the rockets launched from Gaza aren't meant to hit specific targets; if that's the case then it is terrorism. It's also my understanding that when Israel launches a strike it is against specific targets, ie. missile warehouse, enemy combatant, rocket launch sites. Where am I wrong?

It is not terrorism it is a rocket barrage.When NATO threw cassette bombs in Yugoslavia into populated areas I didn't see a 10 seconds material about it.When a Palestinian fires a garage made rocket into an Israeli city then it is terror and a crime against humanity.

Was the bombing of Drezden a terrorist attack ? No that was a strategical destruction of infrastructure so to have a change of policy in Germany.

Killing with F-16 and killing with RPG`s or IED`s is the same thing, killing and as the saying goes "All is fair in love and war".

I know it's unpopular here, but I side with Israel in these disputes. That's Israel's land. They continually get attacked by racists. Israel isn't the instigator. If people stopped blowing themselves up and attacking Israel, there would be no retaliation. Does anyone really believe that Israel is going out of its way to take over the Middle East?

That said, I really don't want the US entangling in these conflicts.

See who started first with suicide attacks on the British army stationed in Palestine.The British knew what was going to happen and tried as hard to stop it.But Europe trying to hide under the carpet that instead of fighting against the NAZI`s almost the entire continent was behind them ( some more some less ) started shipping all people of Jewish religion to Palestine and the USA threw their full support behind them.

The Soviets routinely supplied the Arabs with faulty equipment and bad intelligence ,the only ones who had ever really fought against what was going to happen were the British who eventually stopped their support because of the USA and then Israel won.

Since then the whole region has gone to hell,back and now going for a second dip.

See who started first with suicide attacks on the British army stationed in Palestine.The British knew what was going to happen and tried as hard to stop it.But Europe trying to hide under the carpet that instead of fighting against the NAZI`s almost the entire continent was behind them ( some more some less ) started shipping all people of Jewish religion to Palestine and the USA threw their full support behind them.

The Soviets routinely supplied the Arabs with faulty equipment and bad intelligence ,the only ones who had ever really fought against what was going to happen were the British who eventually stopped their support because of the USA and then Israel won.

Since then the whole region has gone to hell,back and now going for a second dip.

.

This is 2012, not 1953. Israel won the land. Period. If they get attacked, they have every moral right to hit back as hard as they want.

I'm not even a fan of Israel. But if the Arabs would stop attacking there wouldn't be a problem. Israel isn't the aggressor. Just because their existence is an inconvenience doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. They should stand up for themselves.

This is 2012, not 1953. Israel won the land. Period. If they get attacked, they have every moral right to hit back as hard as they want.

I'm not even a fan of Israel. But if the Arabs would stop attacking there wouldn't be a problem. Israel isn't the aggressor. Just because their existence is an inconvenience doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. They should stand up for themselves.

A few things:

1. You need to read up on Middle Eastern history, and not some Fox News version of it. The real history of how Israel was formed and their actions there since 1948. They started out as the aggressors and continue to be the aggressors. Dragging us along with them.

2. "Winning" land due to a conflict is illegal, not to mention unethical.

This latest military action was brought on by Israel, directly. Operation Cast Lead was also brought on by Israel when the IDF broke the ceasefire with Hamas. That happened on election night of 2008--convenient, eh?

I don't care whose side you're on, or even that you take a side, but you should know the facts if you're going to join a discussion about it.

Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

In 2003, Martin van Creveld thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.[22] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying:

"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under."

1. You need to read up on Middle Eastern history, and not some Fox News version of it. The real history of how Israel was formed and their actions there since 1948. They started out as the aggressors and continue to be the aggressors. Dragging us along with them.

2. "Winning" land due to a conflict is illegal, not to mention unethical.

This latest military action was brought on by Israel, directly. Operation Cast Lead was also brought on by Israel when the IDF broke the ceasefire with Hamas. That happened on election night of 2008--convenient, eh?

I don't care whose side you're on, or even that you take a side, but you should know the facts if you're going to join a discussion about it.

I definitely don't know as much as should about the Middle East conflicts.

The bolded is obviously wrong. If you win a war, that is your land. If your land gets attacked, you can fight back aggressively.

Most of the borders of the world are drawn up through military conflicts and settlements. You may not accept this as true. You don't need to be a condescending bitch for something that 99.999% of the rest of the world accepts that as true.

Hollywood is correct. Read about the Israeli lobby, AIPAC. They literally own almost all our politicians (no, they don't own Ron Paul). Obama, Romney, and virtually everything in between, are ALL whores for Israel and traitors to the United States.

I definitely don't know as much as should about the Middle East conflicts.

The bolded is obviously wrong. If you win a war, that is your land. If your land gets attacked, you can fight back aggressively.

Most of the borders of the world are drawn up through military conflicts and settlements. You may not accept this as true. You don't need to be a condescending bitch for something that 99.999% of the rest of the world accepts that as true.

International law--it is illegal. Though I will concede that something being illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen--I do find it quite unethical though.

And you're right, I don't need to be such a condescending bitch sometimes. Sometimes....

Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

This is 2012, not 1953. Israel won the land. Period. If they get attacked, they have every moral right to hit back as hard as they want.

I'm not even a fan of Israel. But if the Arabs would stop attacking there wouldn't be a problem. Israel isn't the aggressor. Just because their existence is an inconvenience doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. They should stand up for themselves.

Sweet. remind me of this quote when the great proletariat rises and takes the land from the gentry.
We have Misean's blessing to take land by force.

Originally Posted by specsaregood

I disagree. The only right one has to a piece of land is having the power to take and hold it.

OMG, is this the same dude that was giving me grief for not respecting business owners property because I am pro-union?
Do you have any idea how hypocritical it is to say property ownership is only based on the ability to be able to hold it?
LoL
I can't believe the inane justifications people will come up with to defend their neo-knights templars.

Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

Cenk hits most of the major points. What is blowback, other than revenge? One act leads to the next, ad infinitum.

All that being said, the people firing rockets are a-holes of the highest order. They fire at innocents, hoping for disproportionate retribution that will no doubt effect more innocents, so that they can gain some small measure of a political advantage. And people with this mindset exist on all sides.

Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

Remember how Ron Paul was booed for bringing up the Golden Rule? Shit--that may have been some of our own people doing that.

**sigh**

Agree, double sigh.

Last edited by Brian4Liberty; 11-15-2012 at 09:21 PM.

Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

Cenk hits most of the major points. What is blowback, other than revenge? One act leads to the next, ad infinitum.

All that being said, the people firing rockets are a-holes of the highest order. They fire at innocents, hoping for disproportionate retribution that will no doubt effect more innocents, so that they can gain some small measure of a political advantage. And people with this mindset exist on all sides.

All I can say in regards to this is that it's virtually impossible for them to aim rockets at military targets--doesn't make it right. Obviously. Now, more than ever--they need to take the high ground and go for an all-out media campaign to expose Israeli crimes (and the IDF DOES target innocent people, with regularity) and keep pushing for UN recognition (even though I think the UN sucks.) I just don't see any other way out of this mess for them.

No more rockets. Get the help of "organizations" like Anonymous, groups well-versed with successful peaceful resistance, try to make their homes resistant to mortar shelling and tell their stories--and plaster it all over the internet. Put the story of their children, wives, husbands and grandparents out there--saturate the market with it.

The unfortunate part is that so many are shellshocked by what Israel has done that they shut that part of their lives out.

Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

Cenk hits most of the major points. What is blowback, other than revenge? One act leads to the next, ad infinitum.

All that being said, the people firing rockets are a-holes of the highest order. They fire at innocents, hoping for disproportionate retribution that will no doubt effect more innocents, so that they can gain some small measure of a political advantage. And people with this mindset exist on all sides.

People in Gaza don't have the technology to launch targeted rockets. They don't fire "at" anything in particular, other than Israeli-occupied land. They don't care about collateral damage, and that's abhorrent. Israel and the US don't care about collateral damage either, they just happen to have technology that can be targeted. They still manage to kill innocent people all the time.

People in Gaza don't have the technology to launch targeted rockets. They don't fire "at" anything in particular, other than Israeli-occupied land. They don't care about collateral damage, and that's abhorrent. Israel and the US don't care about collateral damage either, they just happen to have technology that can be targeted. They still manage to kill innocent people all the time.

Agree, there is very little difference between targeted and non-targeted when innocents end up getting killed either way.

Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

All I can say in regards to this is that it's virtually impossible for them to aim rockets at military targets--doesn't make it right. Obviously. Now, more than ever--they need to take the high ground and go for an all-out media campaign to expose Israeli crimes (and the IDF DOES target innocent people, with regularity) and keep pushing for UN recognition (even though I think the UN sucks.) I just don't see any other way out of this mess for them.

No more rockets. Get the help of "organizations" like Anonymous, groups well-versed with successful peaceful resistance, try to make their homes resistant to mortar shelling and tell their stories--and plaster it all over the internet. Put the story of their children, wives, husbands and grandparents out there--saturate the market with it.

The unfortunate part is that so many are shellshocked by what Israel has done that they shut that part of their lives out.

Agree.

And the people who fire rockets don't give a damn what happens.

Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

This really started with the assassination of the hamas leader, who incidentally, was tasked with enforcing Israel's wishes upon the Palestinians.
When I read that the rocket that killed 3 Israelis in the retaliation was Iranian made, I knew what was up.

This obviously is no random conflagration. Now I am starting to believe those who say the big Petreaus purge is about them refusing to go to war with Iran (which I did not believe before, because I figured Petereaus was just as war happy as any of them).

This is 2012, not 1953. Israel won the land. Period. If they get attacked, they have every moral right to hit back as hard as they want.

I'm not even a fan of Israel. But if the Arabs would stop attacking there wouldn't be a problem. Israel isn't the aggressor. Just because their existence is an inconvenience doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. They should stand up for themselves.

According to who they won? They stole the land then armistice lines were drawn for borders -- they then illegally occupied land in 1963 on top of what they originally stole from the Palestinians, yes illegal even according to the United Nations. Why the hell does Israel hold land in Syria? The Golan heights, why did they take the west bank, and the Gaza strip?

There are millions of displaced Palestinians

Israel continues to treat them as prisoners. I wish I could show you the real plight of the Palestinians. It's like this, if you live in whatever shitty Palestinian territory Israel allows you to live in, you likely don't have running water or clean running water that's only for the Jewish settlements, if you want to go to the town next over you have to go through armed checkpoints just because you're palestinian, because the Palestinian territories are set up like an archipelago, between villages are checkpoints which you get harassed at daily, oh and if Israel wants, it can just take your home. They can just move in, order you out, demolish your home which has probably been in your family for generations, and build a Jewish settlement on it.

What happens if tension is high? Be prepared for indiscriminate bombings, while the rest of the bloodthirsty world CHEERS.

Israel won? Israel's justified? I dare you to see how the Palestinians really live before you make such bold accusations. The Arabs will continue to fight them, as it's their land.

Sweet. remind me of this quote when the great proletariat rises and takes the land from the gentry.
We have Misean's blessing to take land by force.

OMG, is this the same dude that was giving me grief for not respecting business owners property because I am pro-union?
Do you have any idea how hypocritical it is to say property ownership is only based on the ability to be able to hold it?
LoL
I can't believe the inane justifications people will come up with to defend their neo-knights templars.

Are you two listening to yourselves?

ROTFLMAO!

funny shit....hey misean and specs, i need a second home....where you live?

"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
James Madison

"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams

If you are slaughtering civilians at random to coax change that terror.

Incidentally attacks on the USS Cole and military facilities are not terrorism, but assymetric guerilla warfare.

1972, Munich, Terror, what Hamas is doing now? Just bad aim. The V2's were 'terror' weapons but they fit the definition of just bloody scary weapons rather than terrorism. Its a meat grinder of attrition. Its hard to imagine either party doing anything to scare the other side into capitulating.

Stop the Looting and Start Prosecuting! Gold plated Tungsten IS Money!
We Must Dissent A colher não existe.
A government is just a body of people, notably, usually, ungoverned.

"You mean this entire war started because The Empire dressed as the enemy? That's exactly what happened in the last major war! Our government is so stupid!"

What has made this the main factor is Germany has given Israel 5 Dolphin class submarines. This now gives Israel mobile second strike capabilities against any country in the world with nuclear weapons. Launch capabilities are stealth nuclear tipped cruise missiles.

"All eyes are opened, or opening to the rights of man, let the annual return of this day(July 4th), forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them."Thomas JeffersonJune 1826

This really started with the assassination of the hamas leader, who incidentally, was tasked with enforcing Israel's wishes upon the Palestinians.
When I read that the rocket that killed 3 Israelis in the retaliation was Iranian made, I knew what was up.

This obviously is no random conflagration. Now I am starting to believe those who say the big Petreaus purge is about them refusing to go to war with Iran (which I did not believe before, because I figured Petereaus was just as war happy as any of them).

Can you provide links? Not saying I don't believe you, but I like to check these things for myself and what I've read so far does not match up.

Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

OMG, is this the same dude that was giving me grief for not respecting business owners property because I am pro-union?
Do you have any idea how hypocritical it is to say property ownership is only based on the ability to be able to hold it?
LoL
I can't believe the inane justifications people will come up with to defend their neo-knights templars.

Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004