What’s Faster A Knife Or Gun?

Danilo Rossi Lajolo di Cossano is an instructor of Italian knife martial arts. In the video below the knife is faster than the gun. At least that is how it is presented. He could be faster if he used a fixed blade but there are some rather fast people who can draw from concealment like TREXarms and other competent shooters.

Co-Founder of KRISSTALK forums, an owner’s support group and all things KRISS Vector related. Nick found his passion through competitive shooting while living in NY. He participates in USPSA and 3Gun. He loves all things that shoots and flashlights. Really really bright flashlights.

Any questions please email him at nicholas.c@staff.thefirearmblog.com

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ARCNA442

I can’t quite make it out, but is he starting with his hand on the knife?

raz-0

It appears in some he is, others it looks like he isn’t.

Marcus D.

Not only does he have his hand on or very near the knife, the gun guy has a cover garment that he has to pull back before he draws, effectively doubling the time it takes. Also, the “test” does not take into account the possibility of movement and distance. The most effective initial defense a knife is increasing distance from the attacker, even of only by a yard. If his initial attack falls short, you have the chance to move further back or laterally, thus allowing time for a draw.

mcjagermech

i’m wondering just how lethal his stab is? it’s very fast, but is he sacrificing power for all that speed?

armedcitizen

Actor James Coburn settled that question in the original film “Magnificent Seven”!

Klaus

As well as James Conn in Eldorado.

Gabriel

I think it’s worth noting that he is using a folding knife.

Juggernaut

This sounds like something 10 year old boys would debate.

Keiichi

“Mine’s bigger ?”

“Oh, yeah? Well mine goes farther ?”

“Boys, leave those things alone and come to dinner ?”

Nathan Alred

“And wash your hands!”

Tinkerer

…and thus a bromance is born.

sadlerbw

Bob Munden would have two bullets down range before this guy even got his blade opened. And he’d hit his target from more than arms-length distance as well.

Cymond

The late Bob Munden, whose skill was matched only by his ego.

Seriously though, I came to say the same thing. That dude was faster than my eyes.

TheNotoriousIUD

Im fine with a couple of extra milliseconds using a gun since a knife is just going to piss them off.

kjabbdd

Actually the italian part gives it alot of cred, knife duels of honor were/are? common in italy and they use small knives that can be concealed, not the huge rambo knives like the guachos in argentina. (who also knife fight to settle disputes)

TheNotoriousIUD

Another reason why im damn proud to be an American.

babbd

These knife fight were meant to be non-lethal and often were, with punishments for killing your opponent.
The british used pistol duels remember which were more deadly due to not being able to control how deep the bullet penetrates. (with knives it was just slashes).
Then later you defended your honor with fist fighting, and in the U.S now you call your mom whose ex-boyfriend is a lawyer.

TheNotoriousIUD

Whatever dude.
My moms ex boyfriend works at IHOP.

Tassiebush

I had to look IHOP up but I’m very excited to now know it’s only a few sleeps to national pancake day. We need something like that. Nothing like yummy food and nationalism.

TheNotoriousIUD

Trump is threatening to disband IHOP.

Tassiebush

That’d be a bad miscalculation on his part. That company needs to be lauded for pushing the national pancake day agenda.
I worry a tad that a nationalistic pancake binge might be misunderstood. You’re there wearing flags stuffed to the gunnels being made an offer of more that’d cause an incident like with Mr Creosote. You speak for the table saying “f#*k off we’re full” and the next thing someone’s uploaded footage of the thing without context and you’re some demonised internet bigot meme.
I might be over thinking it though!?

TheNotoriousIUD

***strokes goatee***

You may be onto something….

Tinkerer

…let go of my goatee, you damn person you…

Bill

IHOP is famous for being one of the first businesses to recover and reopen after natural disasters. They have a continuity of operations plan second to none and a lot of disaster responders count on them as a measure of how bad a disaster is: if IHOP closes, its bad; how bad is determined by how fast they reopen. Plus, warm food and coffee.

Tassiebush

Ah well that’s a lot more context!

MeaCulpa

The reason for pistol duelling is probably that they wanted a larger degree of chance/randomness compared to the, at that point, skill driven fencing.

Giolli Joker

Sword fencing schools and techniques were pretty big as well in Italy.
“The book” of sword fencing “Flos Duellatorum” was written by the Italian Fiore dei Liberi.

Corsican vendetta knife……the blades your average Italian carried back in the day were identical.

Don Ward

I’m not going to get into the bs about What is Fastah? Herpa durr.

The real weapon is being able to be aware of your surroundings and having the street smarts to understand and mitigate potential threats before they can get into stabby-stab-stab range.

A Fascist Corgi

I’ve never understood this “be aware of your surroundings” line. What does that even mean? Constantly being paranoid of someone ambushing you with deadly force? I’m not going to live my life like that. Beyond avoiding ghetto neighborhoods and using common sense profiling, you can’t really avoid being the victim of a violent crime.

Keiichi

It means not living your life ears deep in your phone, for one.

scaatylobo

LOL, it means not answering a person that has NO awareness of their surroundings.
AND so actually questions one whop does.
AND YES, you can actually avoid a confrontation under many circumstances – IF you see it coming.

Don Ward

No. It means being freaking aware of your surroundings. Get your snout out of your handheld device. Keep your eyes moving. Assess everything around you.
And this means more than just worrying about that muttering hobo pointing at his junk on the corner or the dealer flashing signs at the bus stop.
It can be something as simple as not rushing to be the first one off the sidewalk at the crosswalk or making sure you know where the emergency exits are.
It means placing yourself in situations where you won’t even have to be involved in a self defense shooting because simply the act of you surveying the landscape will let any potential criminal who is also eyeing the public for potential victims to let you walk by and tackle an easier target.

There was a video making the rounds on Facebook not too terribly long ago, where a couple of vehicles get a green light, pull into the intersection, and promptly get plowed into by a huge truck. The take away message according to the original posting was to the effect of “Always wait a few seconds before starting to enter an intersection.” My response was something to the effect of “No, the take away is to look for people ignoring the red light before pulling out!”

carlcasino

Best advice I ever received was use your rear view mirror often and in heavy traffic attempt to look at the car in front of the car in front of you. It’s called situational awareness for survival. You text and drive -you gonna die of kill someone-LACK of situational awareness.

19gundog43

It means not walking around having your head up you’re a$$ and being aware of your surroundings and not staring at that idiot phone. I’m 74 and know how to do that!

.45

Keeping in mind that angry customer might suddenly throw a punch if you say something they don’t like, not letting that grungy looking guy at the gas station out of your sight, watching for signs of shady intent as you pass someone on the sidewalk does not have to be unhealthy paranoia. All you’re doing is just keeping an eye on things. I personally don’t get too worked up about it, but I do make a mental note of “Hey stupid, if that woman meant you harm, you gave her a perfect opportunity by turning your back on her…” I figure a little awareness is good, but I’m nowhere near paranoid enough to constantly have my hand on a weapon… Yet. ;D

carlcasino

First thing I do when the grandkids arrive is text them to park their cell phones and I pads on the shelf at the back door. Then we can have a real situational awareness conversation.

Bill

Essentially is a pattern recognition thing and the ability to decode when things don’t “look right.”

No one

Yeah, you’d last about 2 seconds in the Detroit neighborhood I was born in this this amazing mentality.

Or the second someone like Ted Bundy who never triggered any of his victims “common sense profiling” chose you.

What can I expect though? yet another AFC post

Zachary marrs

Ever see people run into doors, or fall into a fountian, tripping over sidewalks because they aren’t aware that something is in their way?

Ever seen a traffic accident? Or any of a million other things often caused by people who don’t look around themselves to prevent issues?

roguetechie

Yes you actually can,

It’s called basic situational awareness.

The hurr durr being aware of my surroundings is hard crowd who swears anyone who actually manages this = paranoid are just one more sign of institutionalized militant mediocrity!!!

Former Deputy

It means getting your head out of your ass and eyes up from your smartphone. It goes along with “distance is your friend”. The earlier you detect a possible threat (ie: living in YELLOW), the better your chances to AVOID, DETER and DE-ESCALATE (ie: ADD).

It’s a simple concept that those of us have been to high threat environments either live or die by.

matthew_carberry

If you haven’t yet, De Becker’s “Gift of Fear” is a good intro to taking advantage of the instincts humans have evolved to recognize danger (a big part of it is not denying those feelings and impressions). Michael Bane’s “Trail Safe” is an excellent distillation of the topic for the outdoors. The number of books/articles on SA in urban environments is infinite. Ayoob’s “Truth About Self-Protection” is dated on some of the weapons and technology aspects, and carry laws have evolved massively since published, but the parts about situational awareness and basic safety / self-defense are still solid.

Tactically, it is not always possible to keep everyone at arm’s length in the really real world, but there are situationally appropriate responses to many common criminal approaches and interview methods and ways to use the environment to your advantage.

Core

In the East they might call it Mindfulness. It’s a way to be aware of yourself and surroundings. It’s healthier and safer to practice mindfulness.

Colonel K

Quite right. We were taught the old color code system of awareness where white was the deer in the headlights (now smart phone in the face) look, essentially, unaware of your environment until the threat had already materialized. At that point, no matter how well armed you were, your chance of survival just went way down. I’m still amazed at many distracted people I see walking across the street, operating under the notion that if they just ignore any potential threat (like a car coming toward you), it will leave them alone.

Major Tom

I learned that at 9 meters or less the knife holds the advantage over the gun. At any point beyond that, the knife is less than useful.

This rule does not care if you have an M16 or Mosin-Nagant or Brown Bess musket or KSG shotgun or Glock.

But this rule is mitigated when you have a fixed bayonet.

Tassiebush

I don’t think it can quite be called an advantage. More it poses a valid threat or is a viable option. If you think of something like the Tueller drill it’s more to point out that there is a really tangible threat at such ranges from a blade if knife guy runs at gun guy who has weapon holstered. So the blade guy is already initiating the attack in such a scenario. But if we reverse that scenario where gun guy opens fire on knife guy at that distance it looks pretty bleak for knife guy but not entirely safe for gun guy. I remember a cult in the Philippines that used machetes for the most part who fronted up against opponents armed with guns http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54a/258.html

Tassiebush

Basically this shows you that a guy with a knife and a guy with a gun can quite readily kill each other with little ability to prevent the other from killing them. Having said that my money is still on gun guy. He can move backwards reducing the impacts and maybe dodging the knife and his bullets will penetrate much more and can smash bones. Probably would have made more sense if handgun guy kept shooting as he would in a defensive situation.
I remember a mutual homicide with gun vs knife fight in recent years from a squabble between dealer and buyer.

nanbbd

Ahhh but the knife guy if he believes enough can stop the bullets in midair.

Tassiebush

Ha so true! Faith makes up for physics. The more esoteric the system the more effective.

roguetechie

Biggest thing about knives coming out is that as soon as you see that flash of steel accept the fact that you’re going to get cut!

From there it’s just a matter of choosing where you’re going to take the cut to minimize the chances of your bleeding out or taking irreparable nerve damage.

Tassiebush

Absolutely! Unless you have some protection to shield you or armour you have no means of avoiding injury reliably.

Steven Calvaresi

So, what stood out to me, especially in the slow-mo, is the lack of power behind the knife. When trying to land multiple stabs, the guy barely gets through the cardboard. I get the feeling that, while maybe a fraction of a second slower, that the consistently higher and more easily applicable damage delivered by the gun would rapidly outpace any “wicked fast” attack speed of the blade. That being said, rule #1: don’t get shot, close runner up, rule: #2 don’t get stabbed….

babbdld

Punctured lung, liver and kidney, no biggie.

Steven Calvaresi

Sure that’s possible with the knife, although with the power he’s losing trying to “race” the gun, he may not get the depth of penetration to reach those organs. The gun however, from arms reach, will be pretty much guaranteed to penetrate deep enough to reach them. That also demands exacting hit placement from knife/gun, although that close the name of the game is compounding trauma, and I don’t see the knife winning that race….

Then comes the real game changer…..movement….

I carry a fixed blade knife in addition to my EDC, but it’s to allow me to create time/space to bring my EDC into action, not as my primary tool.

Tassiebush

I agree those stabs look pretty light but thinking about it using cardboard as a target is a bit misleading data wise because cardboard is so light it needs more speed to punch through (if not fastened that firmly) than skin. Also when you look at a human punching motion speed coupled with limb weight actually creates most of the force behind a punch (I embarrassingly only learned that a few years ago). So speedy stabs are likely to be quite respectable. I still very much agree though with your point “that the consistently higher and more easily applicable damage delivered by the gun would rapidly outpace any “wicked fast” attack speed of the blade.”

I’m quite aware of the Tueller Drill, my worst concussion came from being in the redman suit showing how easy it is to beat the knife at even 15 ft.

Tassiebush

Ouch! You could say you are painfully aware! Sorry I assumed you were focused on how did they get the 21ft figure.

Tassiebush

So what insights have you got from that training /simulation? It’s always interesting to see how much experiments pan out when you try for yourself.

CommonSense23

With not even a moderate amount of combatives training, it’s not hard to beat a knife with a gun. It takes a lot of skill with a knife to beat a competent person with a gun, and a lot of things got to go right for you to pull that off. You need to be extremely well trained, at around 3ft or less for someone with a duty type holster. The biggest thing I have seen time and time again when it comes to CQD. Is when people are presented with a threat at close range they focus on getting their gun into the fight above all else. Which is important. But you need to be dealing with the theat according, movement, blocking or striking, greatly negate a knife attackers advantage, and it doesn’t take much training to learn these. And it’s the same if the guy is unarmed. One of my favorite hood drills being lefty was the hood comes off the trainee, and a left hook is already coming at your head. 9 out of 10 times guys would always drop their right hand to the holster to grab their gun and take a overhand hook to the head. Once you aware of it, it’s easy to fix. Again getting gun into the fight incredibly important, but it needs to be combined with other just as important moves.
The thing people don’t realize about the Tueller Drill is its data in a vacuum. It came from how fast someone can cover 21ft and the average cop from the 1980s to get shots off. That’s it. It doesn’t take into account you doing anything else. And it treats the knife like a insant kill.

Tassiebush

Thanks that makes a lot of sense.
I’m not coming at this as either professional, much trained nor legally entitled to carry any weapon (it’s not legal here) but from doing training with friends in knife defence with a training knife it was pretty clear that an aggressive approach can be successful to disarm the knife guy but you are on limited time and their level of persistence is a significant factor. I guess this limited time frame would in turn apply to gun Vs knife but would switch over to favour the gun. There’s only so long knife guy has until gun guy will get his shots but gun guy has to avoid being disabled or a fatal injury and possibly disarm knife guy in meantime. We worked out that if you are the knife guy constant aggressive action with your guard up to defend against counter strikes or grappling really swayed things very strongly in your favour.
I think the most useful aspect to take away from the Tueller drill is just the recognition that a credible threat exists at such a distance.

Bill

Excellent summary of the Tueller Drill, which is more of a concept than anything. Too many people treat it as Gospel and apply it to too broad a set of circumstances.

Ghost930

Not entirely true. Tueller worked with multiple events while training. He experimented with lateral movement by both the assailant, and the officer, as well as with varying levels of expertise by both parties, of which there are training videos of. I’m not sure the 1980’s comment is very applicable, with other than possibly the type of duty holster that might have been used at that date. Is it your assertion that human beings were slower in 1980 than now? Tueller didn’t assert the knife attack as an instant “kill”, he asserted it as a possible instant distractor from further cognitive action, or at least a disruptor of that. Which I have found to be true in real life on most occasions with all but the highly trained if they are aware they have been stabbed. Those that don’t see the edged weapon initially, tend not to immediately react, especially if it was a smaller blade. In fact I have seen multiple stabs, and slashes ignored for as much as several minutes, including ones that were ultimately fatal due to lack of perception of the weapon and injury, and adrenalin and endorphin push. On top of that, Tueller was working from average responses. The truth is, most reasonably in shape people can cover up to, and exceeding 21 ft or so before the “average” person can engage them successfully from the holster. I do agree with you on to many gun carriers tend to become way to “gun centric”. They forget that the quickest most immediate appropriate response may not be the firearm they are wearing, but a physical defense involving other combative training (hence the reason all Police Officer should be involved in some sort of combatives training). Not immediately going to gun, seems to stymy a lot of folks out there, you need only watch a few you tube Police shooting incidents or training videos to observe this. I have seen more than one incident where trying to immediately go for their gun, in lieu of physically engaging an assailant got some people shot. This especially happens when it’s an encounter at 6-10ft (which is around 89% in my area). Enjoyed your comment though, it was very thoughtful.

She still lost her shotgun to pretty boy and had to go in with the bayonet, but otherwise yes.

Paul White

I want this so very badly.

Archie Montgomery

Those are effective, but hard to holster, let alone conceal. That eighteen inch bayonet is really awkward in an ankle holster.

Big Daddy

As it has been said here situational awareness is #1 and KING of the fight. Not getting into the fight is the whole idea, not being a target and not being a hero unnecessarily.

Reading people and the situation without anybody knowing you’re doing it. Not wearing clothing or even a hat that makes you stand out. Try to be invisible.

Knives are the one thing I really worry about. Some guys with knives are fast, really fast and can be on you so quick and cutting you to shreds.

You must train and have a rig that you can react with fast. Also being able to use the techniques taught for very close encounters. Again and again just having a gun means nothing unless you train and know what you’re doing with it. Without training having a gun just makes you feel safer. While you’re worried about that gun on my hip I’m using the one in my pocket on you. Have a plan and practice, practice, practice in your home and at the range.

But man I hate knives, hate them because I know what they can do in the hands of a true fighter. They’re a tool, they are works of art, they are amazing pieces of historical warfare and I have a bunch of them, I carry one for utility. But to fight with one I am just too slow. Did I say I hate knives, well I do.

.45

Reminds me of that video of knife guy versus Instructor Zero. Only by doing crazy stuff like dropping to the floor could Zero avoid getting nailed, though as I recall, he would likely win the attempted ambush because knife guy likely would only have been able to score some “defensive wounds” since Zero was moving and had his hands up.

Bill

The knife has the advantage in that it essentially requires minimal skill and is dangerous by itself – i.e. drop a knife on your foot versus a gun and see which does more damage.

A skilled knifer will beat an unskilled gunner the majority of the time.

Dan

What if the gun is a Taurus?

APDT66

If it is a Taurus it will either go full auto and dump the whole mag into the bad guy, or the shrapnel from the catastrophic failure will disable him, so the gun has the advantage in this case.

nonobaddog

The first rule in a gun fight
Bring a gun

The first rule in a knife fight
Bring a gun

Rnasser Rnasser

Common thug procedure 101: get close and stab, stab, stab…
Scary how anyone can be very dangerous with no instruction and a normal, cheap knife.

Hugo Stiglitz

Be smart. Carry both!

Bryan King

With no movement involved, it’s a pointless exercise. At close range, the guy with the better open hand skill is more likely to win.

guest

Yeah, go try that against Bob Munden’s draw. I know he’s dead, God rest his soul, but still he’d shoot probably 10 times before that jerk with his “martial art” and steak knife would even flinch.

vwVwwVwv

take a fixblade and the knife will make it more obviouse

vwVwwVwv

vwVwwVwv

scaatylobo

GREAT example of speed and timing = AND being REALLY ,REALLY close to your target.
NO WAY, would I let anyone that close,and yes I have taken action to stop being in contact distance with strangers.
IF a stranger tried to get that close,and you allowed it —– you might as well not bother being armed.

Wow that sounds horrific! You were very fortunate to survive that! Really impressed that you were able to turn the tables on him! To have been able to work your way out of that position while already knocked around like that is remarkable.

roguetechie

Dude, it was a horrific yet singularly defining moment in my life…

Before that time the joke among myself and my friends was that I’m too stupid to just give up and let death take me!

Turns out that this was actually shockingly true!

I absolutely abhor violence and will go to extreme lengths to avoid it and extricate myself from confrontations up to and including letting people hit me a few times if that’s what it takes!

But apparently, if I’ve got no avenue of retreat I acquit myself more than admirably and fight like a wounded and angry cornered bobcat to boot!! LOL

Tassiebush

Haha it sounds like trauma with a silver lining of gained confidence! Edit: not to make light of it though!

roguetechie

In a way there was quite a bit of comedy to the whole situation, and when I saw this video it all came rushing back.

That video is nice and pretty and oh so cut and dried. Whereas in my situation, there I was pinned to the floor and ON TOP OF my gun!

I didn’t have a nice 3 meter head start to at least free it from it’s holster in the small of my back!

If you’re not the aggressor you’re not always gonna have the time and space to make a nice clean on the range firing line draw.

This is why if you’re going to choose to carry you should also choose to practice every step in a defensive gun use scenario with particular attention paid to getting the damn gun out and pointed in the right direction!

Tassiebush

Yeah fights sure don’t normally include convenience and finesse!

roguetechie

Yup no finesse at all to this situation!

There was muscle memory and adrenaline pumped hysterical strength by the truckload, but finesse… LOL oh hell no

Kafir1911

Maybe the question is answered already, but I believe the answer was presented on the Magnificent Seven. The original that is. : )

Phillip Cooper

True story, bro?

roguetechie

Yes, i have the scar and slight limp to prove it!

I chose to share my experience so that it can maybe benefit others in some way and as a counterpoint to what was shown in the YouTube video.

The whole thing was actually a nonstop string of bad judgment and failures to read the situation around me right up until the point where my lizard brain / survival instincts took over!

At that point it was all muscle memory from all the sparring and sheer animal ferocity.

I can’t stress enough though that a whole series of failures brought me to the situation I was in!

phil box

seems like it would be distance dependent.

bobk90

What BS… He is going up against an old man! And if you think that Shooting some one is hard, Knifing a person is Worse!

Salvador Ruiz

he loses at 10 feet.

carlcasino

unless bullets have been dipped in something to contaminate them I fear the after effects of an infection from a knife. I know a few people that have pucker marks from bullets and none were ever infected. I can also point to a few that had self inflicted knife wounds while skinning game that almost died from the infection that set in because of lack of concern for a little cut.

Archie Montgomery

The video demonstrates that specific gentleman with the knife is faster than that specific gentleman with the firearm. The knife operator is identified as Danilo Rossi Lajolo di Cossano, an “…instructor of Italian knife martial arts…” (One wonders if that is an Italian-origin martial art, or Signori Lajolo di Cossano is an Italian (which seems apparent by his speaking) of knife martial arts.)

The demonstration has two people responding to a single, third party stimulus. That really doesn’t happen in reality. (The physical fight begins when one of the parties initiates physical force; not when someone on the sidelines yells “Go!”

This very close distance is also specific. Were the range doubled, I would suspect the results would be different. Does the attacker have a firearm or a knife or club? That would have a marked influence on the outcome as well.

Related to this, but not exactly the same: The Tueller Drill proves (demonstrates?) NOT that a knife wielder will always win in a close encounter, but that WHOEVER initiates the ‘fight’ signal will usually score the first wound.

One also notes Signori Lajolo di Cossano’s knife hand is very close to the knife when the start signal sounds. I could go on, but this video strikes me more as a marketing attempt than anything else.