Pakistan talks up al Qaeda/Taliban split

Pakistan is increasingly talking up the need for a political settlement in Afghanistan which would force al Qaeda to leave the region. And while there is little sign yet Washington is ready to hold serious negotiations with Afghan insurgents, analysts detect a new tone in Pakistani comments about driving Osama bin Laden’s organization out of its haven on the Pakistan border.

A senior security official said the Afghan stalemate could be lifted by setting a minimum agenda in which insurgents broke with al Qaeda. There were indications, he said, they could renounce the organisation and ask it to leave the region. Senior politician Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman, a pro-Taliban member of the ruling coalition, also said a settlement “would squeeze the room for al Qaeda.” “Al Qaeda will have to fall in line or leave the region,” he told Reuters in an interview late last month.

As discussed in the story, there is no evidence that the United States is ready yet for serious negotiations with Afghan insurgents — although over the course of this year it has become more open to the idea. Official sources outside Washington speak of widespread confusion over U.S. plans in Afghanistan, with the Pentagon in particular seen as pushing for ramped-up military operations and the State Department more open to exploring diplomatic solutions.

At the same time, some also speak of confusion over U.S. goals in Afghanistan. This is significant because the confusion fuels conspiracy theories among those who suspect the United States has other motives for being in Afghanistan than defeating al Qaeda — its original reason for sending troops there after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. Those conspiracy theories undermine U.S. efforts to win hearts and minds and feed a jihadi world view that they are engaged in a “David and Goliath” struggle against U.S. imperialism. And that in turn undercuts any gains the U.S. military might make on the battlefield in Afghanistan, or any public support it might hope to garner through financial aid to Pakistan.

By talking up the idea of a split between the Taliban and al Qaeda, Pakistan also appears to be trying to nudge the debate back into the original reason for the Afghan war. A senior security official said Washington should set “end conditions” for Afghanistan. A break with al Qaeda would be a requirement on which there could be no compromise. But concessions would have to be made on other U.S. preconditions for talks, which include a requirement that insurgents renounce violence and promise to respect the Afghan constitution.

Exactly how a Taliban/AQ split would work is unclear; as are the questions of if, how, and where al Qaeda leaders would go if they were forced out of their safe haven on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Nor is it clear what would happen to other al-Qaeda linked militants in Pakistan if for example bin Laden and his deputy Ayman al Zawahiri were to move. India in particular would be anxious that any political settlement in Afghanistan which forced out al Qaeda would leave intact what it calls “the infrastructure of terrorism” in Pakistan.

Nonetheless, the idea of reframing the debate to look at end conditions rather than the means of getting there (from tanks to talks) is an interesting one.

“The real tragedy about these telegrams is that they miss the point: that the entire western military effort in Afghanistan will in the end be for nothing unless it is part of a wider political strategy. Such a strategy should bring together all the internal parties – not just the Taliban – to a decades-old conflict, and systematically engage Afghanistan’s neighbours in gradually stabilising the country, from which the whole of south-west Asia would benefit.

“In that broader strategic perspective, debating troop levels in Helmand is a bit like arguing over how much aspirin to give a cancer patient. Garrisoning the town of Sangin more efficiently may produce more relief from pain (or violence). But without action to treat the underlying disease (which is political, not military), such relief can be only local, and temporary.”

“Rather than committing more troops, the United States should instead pursue a political solution to the conflict, including a cease-fire and negotiations with the insurgents. By insisting on power-sharing among the various Afghan factions and reserving the right to intervene militarily to prevent Afghanistan from becoming a sanctuary for extremist groups, the United States can still accomplish the more limited objective of preventing the return of al-Qaeda.

“However, the United States must act quickly. Given the rapidly deteriorating security situation, every passing month strengthens the position of the Taliban. A viable exit strategy is still possible, but time is not on America’s side.”

Philip Mudd, a former deputy director of the CIA’s Counterterrorist Center, argues in a piece in Foreign Policy in favour of rethinking U.S. objectives in Afghanistan to return to their original focus of tackling the threat from al Qaeda after the Sept. 11 attacks:

“If our initial intervention stemmed from the attacks, should not follow-on decisions, such as whether to speak to the Taliban about reconciliation, relate directly to the al Qaeda fight? If we want to destroy al Qaeda, does our current strategy of isolating the Taliban — which has a far greater penetration of Afghan society and provincial life that we or the Kabul government ever will — make sense? It does if we want to build a civil society; it doesn’t if we want local Taliban leaders to limit an al Qaeda presence because it might interfere with their goal of creating an Afghan emirate.”

As long as the interests of Pakistan and the US coincide, there is a possibility of a settlement.
It is same like the Soviet withdrawal. During the Geneva accords, Pakistan and Mujahideen groups were winning, but the US wanted to go for a total victory.
This time around there is no total victory, I would say call it a day, sign an accord, kick Al-Qaeda out and let this end. Otherwise a prolong conflict will create more complications for Pakistan. Once the conflict ends in Afghanistan, Pakistan too can follow thorugh and resetle the restive tribal areas. It is about time to talk with Pushtoon Taliban and reintegrate them into mainstream Afghan political process.

. The foreign forces should leave Afghanistan to stabilise the domestic situation. Mr Obama and his miltary brass are stregnthing AQ mission, i.e support for resistance from other countries, cable network reports from Afghanistan.
. Pakistan military should withdraw from the Pashtoon territory, return to their barracks. The military is not a National army and requires reforms. Their use of colonial tactics to create divisions among Pashtoons does not work, when two AQ followers blow up the gatherings.

The USA brains have never understood the difference between the westernised states and Afghnistn.
The western Govts. are allocated almost two third of the responsibility for its citizens, from services, social order and secuity. In the Pashtoon lands of Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Govts. have a minimal responsibilty for the inhabitants, least of all for security. This is the cause of the crisis both in Afghanistan and Pakistan tribal territory. AQ or the so called talibans have no function other than to pose resistance for the foreigners. They would disapeear with foreign forces.

This is in Pakistan’s interest just as much as it is in the West’s interest. Western forces get a decent face-saving exit and Pakistan avoids the consequences that would come from an US failure in Afghanistan (the inevitable result of which would be US hostility towards it).

I read in Sydney Morning Herald that the US has developed a smart gun that can go behind the walls and knock out snipers. It makes the job of an ordinary soldier a lot easier. With this gun, Taliban can be made to go on the run. This weapon might become the Stinger missile equivalent that drove the Soviets to their defeat. The US wants to weaken the Taliban drastically before making deals with them that would be followed through. Detaching them from Al Qaeda will be forced on them by weakening them with this weapon. I will publish the link soon.

From the Indian perspective, it is possible to be very cynical about this new proposal.

One, how do we certify that Al Qaeda has really “left the region”? It’s not like these guys would fill out embarkation forms or something. One bearded guy with a Kalashnikov is pretty much indistinguishable from another bearded guy with a Kalashnikov, so who’s to say that the bearded, Kalashnikov-wielding guys left behind are not Al Qaeda?

Two, this is probably a face-saving way for the US to stop fighting terrorists without seeming to have lost. It also means that India will have to fight on alone from that point on. The US will pretend that its quarrel was all along with just Al Qaeda (*those* bearded guys with Kalashnikovs) and not with LeT, JuD, LeJ, JeM and other anti-India types (those *other* bearded guys with Kalshnikovs – see the difference?).

Three, all the bearded guys with Kalashnikovs can then heave a sigh of relief, regroup, then focus on just one objective – what was that? – Islami Jamhooriya Hindustan? The Pakistani nukes will cover them, so India can’t retaliate militarily.

In Varanasi a bomb went off killing a one year old child. LeT’s Indian wing claimed responsibility. In the future India will see a lot more suicide attacks and IEDs. They have wreaked havoc in Pakistan and they would only love to see it targeted towards India rather than themselves. If an Islamic insurgency can be started inside India that will help trigger violence against Muslims and the entire focus can then be shifted towards India. Pakistan does not have much money to sponsor everything. But Jihad will continue for the warped minds to feed their frenzy. Ordinary Pakistanis might breathe a sigh of relief as all bearded Kalashnikov Mullahs will shift into India. This is a likely scenario.

However, things have not reached a conclusive point in Afghanistan yet. Al Qaeda might try to intensify the conflict that can turn Pakistan against the US. If things become clear that a settlement is being reached to isolate Al Qaeda and drive it off its safe havens in Pakistan, then Al Qaeda will turn around and try to take Pakistan over. It has enough sympathizers and helpers deep into Pakistan. They will do it in a violent way. So far they have desisted taking on Pakistani army. But their attempt will be to get someone in charge who is somewhat radicalized and sympathetic to Al Qaeda. There is a 50% chance that this might happen. If Pakistani army decides to save itself and goes all out against Al Qaeda, then things might take a dangerous turn for them. The Haqqanis, hekmatyars and many Al Qaeda sympathizers might turn against Pakistan’s military men aligned with the West. They will try to drive a wedge into the middle of Pakistan’s military turning it into a radicals versus moderate tussle. By creating more chaos inside Pakistan, they will try to frustrate the public and turn them against the moderates. Many assassinations will happen. Al Qaeda will try to get its position inside Pakistan strengthened first before derailing other plans. If they gain, Pakistanis will jump ship and align themselves with them.

A lot depends upon what the Pak military is going to do. If they agree to a deal with the West on the condition that Al Qaeda gets evicted, they might face the full brunt of this terrorist organization. Many off shoots of Pak Army’s non-state-actor wings might join Al Qaeda. Some of the Pak generals like Kayani will be accused of being Western sympathizers.

Or Pak army might promise safe havens and passage to Al Qaeda on one side while working with the West at the same time until the peace deal is signed. Al Qaeda might be told that the first attempt must be to get the Western forces reduced considerably in the region and the long term goals against India. This is the third scenario.

India will see attacks increase in 2011. But we might have to tough it out. I won’t be surprised if Khalistan movement resumes. India will need to be warmed up and chaos escalated there to provide cover for Al Qaeda.

Attacks in India will escalate because of the above scenarios. We just have to face it and deal with it. There is no use waiting for them to strike. A war with India will do a lot of good for the demoralized Jihadi spirit. And they have been itching for it. We have faced terrorism before. We just need to build on that experience. Bangalore will be targeted this time.

@keithZ
Pre sept. 11, there were muslim as well as non muslim volunteers, politicaly and to some extent materialy backed up by the UK and the USA, who came to assist the Afghan Resistnce against the Soviets. This campaign was successful and the Soviets withdrew.

In my opinion, this victory of resistance against a super power encouraged and stregnthened other muslim resistance groups for armed resistance against their oppressors. The USA Govt. influence and control over BL declined and the mujahidin groups were bundled together and renamed, for covienience, as AQ groups and BL was made as its head,and later granted a PHD in terrorism. The monster was created and George W “dead or alive” slogan made him the most feared one. And the dumb public as usual had to accept the fairy tale stories. little people became monsters and the most professional and dangerous terrorist organisations such as the IRA and ETA went into history as amateurs.

Rex Minor

PS
People even forgot the USA Govt. close relations with Bin Laden large family, who were flown out of USA in a special plane after the Sept. 11 episode.

Wikileak is conspicuosly releasing selective info. The world is going to learn one day the true background and the clumsy strategy for making things complicated with their hype story behind the farce and mass hypnosis.

rex Minor

PS As a child of five I used to get facinated listening to countless unending stories which my great aunt to told us every night. They were more sinister and of interest than the one Bill Clinton and George W has put on .

Al Qaeda has created a momentum that is going to be difficult to stop. It might disappear into thin air. But it has sowed the seeds of Jihad and militant Islam across the globe. See this link about radicalism in Europe.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40336911/ns/ world_news-europe/

This is a cancer that is spreading across the free world. These guys simply do not want to stop with defeating “others.” They want to convert them as well. Things have begun to nucleate in many parts of the free world, inspired by Al Qaeda. It will grow with time. There is no way Americans or other Western nations can conclude that all will be well once they reach a settlement in Afghanistan. The Islamists are seeing it as a great victory to themselves. And there are enough arrogant people in their midst who would want to take it to the next level.

@KP
Mr. Rex above said withdrawing from Afghanistan will lead to peace but link provided by you states otherwise. So is it the Rex whose stomach is sending false signals or is that guy in the story is a US agent? But what is true is that all this hullaboo about Islam will lead to making life of muslims a literal hell in Europe. During II WW it were Jews and now it will be muslims. So much for goodies after death that one makes his life hell. Actions of few will result in repercussions for thousands. That’s why I always say no faith is much better than, blind faith and hence becoming a pawn in hands of whoever….

Peace is no longer an absolute term. It is only relative. When the India was bearing the brunt of Islamic terrorism sponsored by Pak military, the Western world was in peace. Cold war ended and they were enjoying the new world order. When Kashmir burned, and Taliban ruled Pakistan was at peace. After 9/11, peace has disappeared in many parts of the world. Now peace has become like the rain cloud in an arid land. It seems to appear in the horizon only to disappear soon. So the peace Rex is looking for is a relative one where his country (either Afghanistan or Pakistan or both) will be at peace while others burn. This is the only peace these people can think of. They want no absolute peace. For them to be at peace at home, they need conflicts elsewhere. Their brothers are out to do it.

CIA info…..to Colin Powel …to UNO =IRAQ WAR=million dead.
CIA has proven its incompetence and colin powel has proven that he was an old used up soldier with demence and not suitable for the post of secretary of State.

Is it not prudent, therefore to avoid falling into a trap of the CIA or ex CIA man? Dr Le Beau referred to in the MSNBC article mentioned above is a retired CIA officer and is now called Professor of strategy and Securities in Germany.
It is one thing to read the crap and an affront to post it on this blog.

One should look at the core summary of the article instead of nit picking on any excuses to deflect attention. The core of the article is about one Anjem who is just a sample of a radicalized European Islamic preacher. I saw on CNN yesterday about a group in New York that is calling for Jihad openly on the streets. The guy in the group says that in Quran it is said that Muslims should threaten non-believers. Their website has been closed because it inspired many youth in the US, including Shahzad.

Bin Laden has become an icon for warped minds in the Islamic world and this inspiration is sprouting new Jihad volunteers in many parts of the world. Bin Laden has done his job. Him being alive or dead does not matter anymore. What matters is his influence on future generations which will hurt the world more. Religion is the most dangerous weapon.

“Pre sept. 11, there were muslim as well as non muslim volunteers, politicaly and to some extent materialy backed up by the UK and the USA, who came to assist the Afghan Resistnce against the Soviets.”
***What a crap! What non-Muslim volunteers? It was “Jihad” mediated by Mujahideen of different shades from a number of countries, mediated by Pakistan, sponsored by US. If there is any Non-Muslim that is Israel who militarily helped.

KPSingh:”group in New York that is calling for Jihad openly on the streets. The guy in the group says that in Quran it is said that Muslims should threaten non-believers.”
“Al Qaeda has created a momentum that is going to be difficult to stop. It might disappear into thin air. But it has sowed the seeds of Jihad and militant Islam across the globe.”

-KPSingh, the seeds of Jihad and militant Islam were sown in Afghanistan during the 1980s by CIA Directors William Casey, later Robert Gates, Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan approved funds for Afghan rebels, Saudi GID-General Intelligence Department came in with cash influx, weapons were shipped to Karachi by containers and trucked in to Afghan-Pak border region by ISI-CIA. CIA donated pick up trucks, Charlie Wilson got the Congressional approval to throw in more lethal and sophisticated weapons such as the Stinger Surface to air missiles. Pakistani officers trained in Fort Brag North Carolina, went back and set up training camps to train Afghan rebels in guirella warfare. From Egypt, to Jordan and Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Arab volunteers set up camps in Peshawar. They brought in their ideology, resources, money and weapons/contacts. Every one was in it together, the ISI, the CIA, the US govt. they were engaged in a Jihad against Godless communists, the goal was one, the enemy was common.

Out of that chaos, Al-Qaeda was born. Just sit tight and have patience. All stakeholders and players know their past mistakes, and the big mess they are in. It would take time to sort things out. All you need to do is to get the facts straight.

Rex/Rehmat
““Pre sept. 11, there were muslim as well as non muslim volunteers, politicaly and to some extent materialy backed up by the UK and the USA, who came to assist the Afghan Resistnce against the Soviets.”
***What a crap! What non-Muslim volunteers? It was “Jihad” mediated by Mujahideen of different shades from a number of countries, mediated by Pakistan, sponsored by US. If there is any Non-Muslim that is Israel who militarily helped.”

-Guys, it was indeed non-Muslim volunteers, when Charlie Wilson visited and donated blood, went to Khyber pass, toured the hospitals and refugee camps, he went back to Washington and pressed Congress to authorize Stinger missile supplies to Mujahideen. The foor soldiers were indeed Mujahideen fighters, but they had support from Pakistan (ISI), Saudi and US. On the other side Soviet advisors and troops were aiding Afghan communist regime and mercilessly killing civilians.

This is a 30 year old war, that never ended with Soviet withdrawal nor did it start after US invasion in 2001. It will take a lot more time for Afghanistan to recover and get back to its feet. The process of rehabilitation has to bigin, the goal should be to prevent chaos, create unity in Afghan society and put together a national govt. there.

Your points are well taken. Let us hope that the world comes out of the mess it got itself into by collective bungling. You did not mention about Zia-Ul-Haq’s ambitions to Islamize Pakistan. That got considerable acceleration due to the war against the Soviets, which was turned into a Jihad by the Americans and their Pakistani counterparts. I agree with you that past mistakes cannot be corrected now. The only thing we all wish for is a sincere effort on all sides. Does Pakistan still insist that India be driven out of Afghanistan as a part of the peace solution? If Pakistan is really sincere about a long lasting peace in the region, this question will not come up.

Do you think gun culture starting with anti-Soviet mission of 1979-89 could ever be eradicated? What do you think needs to be done to stop this? Kashmir disturbance happened later, so that cannot be the reason. Pushtoons did not do anything against India since their involvement in 1948 (tribal invasion of Kashmir). Their gun use is mainly against each other or non-Pushtoon Afghans.

Do you think dividing Afghanistan into Pushtoon and Non-Pushtoon territories will bring normalcy, since they won’t be after slitting each other’s throat.

How long can Pushtoon territories on either side of Durand line remain separate? That line is a joke anyway.

rehmat: “How long can Pushtoon territories on either side of Durand line remain separate? That line is a joke anyway.”

The Durand line was created in 1893 and it expired in 1993. Pashtuns need not recognize that line.

I have though along lines similar to yours about separating Pashtuns from non-Pashtuns. But one must make sure that they do not turn into another India and Pakistan in the bargain. Since these are extremely violent and volatile ethnic groups, this has to be done carefully.

The rise of radical Islam in Europe and US is a new phenomenon. If this is not nipped in the bud, one can expect to see retaliation from conservative Europeans. Though most of their countries have standards of ethics, equality, rights etc protected, when push comes to shove, all that will be forgotten. I was in Canada when 9/11 happened and I heard and read about the reaction in the US towards Muslims or anyone who resembled what they perceived as Muslims. One Sikh citizen of the US was gunned down by an angered young man at a gas station.

European cultures are violent in nature as well. If they get emotional, they do not care much for values. There are neo-Nazi groups spread across Europe and North America. These are as radicalized in their mindsets as the Islamic youth who are dreaming of waging global Jihad. The clash of the two can be deadly. Here is an article from 2008 on this:

In Australia, Indians are being attacked. It can shift against innocent Muslims if the Jihadist youth start launching their offensives based on their inspiration from Bin Laden. I pray sincerely that our morons do not start anything against Muslim citizens in India if these Jihadists manage to hurt non-Muslims. This thing has to be nipped in the bud. Otherwise it has the potential to get out of control. As it is there is frustration in the air due to economic strains in Europe and US. These are difficult times.

The “survival of the fittest” andthe “balance of power” remain the principles to guide the destiny of Nations in the next millaniam!

The nomenClature of AQ or Taliban are nothing more than name calling no different than yakees, gringos and so on. Most amusing is that certain groups carrying out various acts, criminal or otherwise are naming themselves or being named by others as AQ or talibans. Sarha Pelin has even gone bonkers and has recently named julian Assange as BL.

The truth is also that Anglo saxons have been the greatest human rights violators during and at the end of the WW2! Who is not aware that what the allied force did to the German and Japanese people and their countries? The non-stop bombing of the Dresden city, it took more than half a century for prince charles to apologise for what the Brits did. The USA has of this fate not apologised to the Japanese people fot the two atomic drops on their cities!
The truth is also that USA does not recognise the UNO criminal court, and is ccused of being the human rights violator, with its concentration camps around the world.

State terrorism is the order of the day and not only african countries such as Sudan or Zimbabwi, but countries like India, Pakistan, Siri lanka, Phillipines would not be able to get a clean bill. It is nothing but a diversion to talk about India and Pakistan covert actions against each other and relatively petty and amateur enterprises.

There are more powerful and criminal forces in action and are beavering away their sinister schemes without any hinderence and within the limits of law. How come, the media is simply selecting the diplomat cables mostly involving the muslim countries?

Let us not kid ourselve, the europeans did their crusade agaist the muslim Nations before and lost constantinople and have experience the occupation of Spain, most of France, Buda and Pest and the Balkans. today the have neither the resource nor any morals to use force aginst the people, most of whom are ordinary folks who believe in one god and do not have any ambitions to dominate christians or jewish people. The few nuts around the world living in the biblical times are no different than their counterpart christian and jews.

The so called AQ operators and talibans are long gone from Afghanistan and Pakistan. It would appear that What we observe today are the same leaders who once called themselves Mujahideen and had the support of the western world. My assessment is that 2011 is the last year for the foreiogners to operate in Pashtoon territory, 2012 would be the start of Pashtoons campaiogn outside their territory and there is no evidence if Pakistan and Indian military would be in a position to stop their advance.

Pakistan: “2012 would be the start of Pashtoons campaiogn outside their territory and there is no evidence if Pakistan and Indian military would be in a position to stop their advance.”

Thank you so much for the much needed comic relief in this stressful world! I really mean it this time. You have the best sense of humor and you never disappoint us. And your spelling mistakes and warped interpretations embellish your hilarious view points. Wonderful! Please do not stop entertaining us.

@Rex
“The few nuts around the world living in the biblical times are no different than their counterpart christian and jews”

As I said before that because of those few nuts today the life of a million muslims are made hell in Europe. Before II WW Europeans burned jews and now it is turn of muslims. A Spanish sity now bans burqa. And this is just the beginning, Muslims will have to come out openly against these so called GOD FEARING nuts or the racist europe will probably slaughter innocent muslims like lambs.

“2012 would be the start of Pashtoons campaiogn outside their territory and there is no evidence if Pakistan and Indian military would be in a position to stop their advance”

Hey you earlier said it will happen in 50 years. Now you say just 2 years. And at the end it is 777 who is confused.

BTW did you find out why did Taliban guys did not punish those criminals (who according to you were not Taliban) who brought down the Buddha statues (which in you opinion was a shameful act and a blot on Afghanistan in general)??

PS
I agree with KP and urge you to not listen to anyone who asks you to shut up. Now there are at least 2 guys here who like your sense of humor. Keep it up Rexy boy.

AQ & Taliban will however NOT change their ways and pledges of spreading and imposing warped and false interpretations of Islam. I did not read anywhere in Qoran (someone tell me how the name of this holy book is correctly spelled in English) to kill or impose Islam onto so called non-believers. Rehmat/Umair correct me if I am wrong.

Hinduism goes even a step further and says that everyone is a form of that ONE supreme being an that supreme being is manifested in all (not sure if Islam also says so, correct me if need be). So all are believers and no need to convert or spread hinduism at all. All are hindus. Although political ambitions make a very few people do horrible things.

I guess same goes for all other religions as well. So root cause is politics and religion becomes a weapon, albeit greatest weapon to divide and rule.

777:”I did not read anywhere in Qoran (someone tell me how the name of this holy book is correctly spelled in English) to kill or impose Islam onto so called non-believers.”

-Correct, Islam or Quran do not preach violence or hatred. Quran is also spelled as Koran sometimes, i do not think the spelling is important what is important is the pronounciation. Islam cannot be imposed on anyone, Islam is a religion of peace and brotherhood. It spread in early years through the good conduct and actions of its initial adherents. On this i agree with you completely, Al Qaida and Taliban view of Islam is incorrect, Islam cannot be imposed on the barrell of a gun.

On Quran: Here is some shuras that deal with infidels. Make your own interpretations of it.

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

2:244 Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.”

Where did you copy paste from? I am not going to enter into a debate with you over this unless you tell me what is your intention. Do you really want me to help you interpret this or you are doing this to prove something? Being a non-Muslim you are not able to interpret correctly. Better it is to leave it at that.

I just googled and got a bunch of websites. The one I copied and pasted is as follows:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index? qid=20060914001306AA3aptj

When everything is subject to interpretation, it does not matter if one is a Muslim or non-Muslim. A Muslim will defend the statement because it is his faith. A non-Muslim will not have that emotional attachment. Secondly a non-Muslim has exposure to other religions and can make comparisons. Many Muslims in general prefer not to do so. One can interpret things any which way.

I know one Muslim preacher who gave a very different interpretation of Jihad, Kaffir etc. I wondered if it was because he was tailoring it to match the sentiments of the local Hindus or not. According to him, Jihad is an internal war against temptations and desires. Kafir is every individual until one realizes the Divine. When the Divine is realized, the Kafir dies within. It is the slaying of this Kafir that Quran mentions, according to him. When one experiences the Divine in its entirety, his will simply merges with Divine will. He has surrendered his will to Allah. And that surrender is called Islam. I don’t know how traditional Muslims will take this interpretation.

Thats the trouble with ALL religions that they are spelled out in natural languages which by nature are ambiguous in themselves. So any religious text can be interpreted in more than one way. So a very simple way to determine whether the interpretation is right or wrong is to know whether the interpretation leads to peace or violence. If violence it is definitely wrong. If peace then it is considerable. The text that you mentioned above can also be interpreted as fight against evil as in MORAL fight (eg: Sufism in India) and not gun fight. Moreover so many centuries have passed since the original version that we hardly know that knowledge coming to us have been carried correctly to us by our forefathers. What if the holy books have been deliberately tempered with in some point of time to achieve certain political goals?? So it is left to one’s own intelligence to find out the meanings. But yes of late warped interpretations have become order of the day.

@Umair
“On this i agree with you completely, Al Qaida and Taliban view of Islam is incorrect, Islam cannot be imposed on the barrell of a gun.”

Then why is your pious PA/ISI ‘maintaining’ them behind mask of so called strategic depth against India??

“did not read anywhere in Qoran (someone tell me how the name of this holy book is correctly spelled in English) to kill or impose Islam onto so called non-believers”

***I agree with Umair and as you know that Islam does not impose religion. It is a myth in India that Muslims in India are due to conversion by sword. There is enough evidence to point towards that. Hindu-Muslim co-existence for so long is one indication. This is not to say that events like forced conversion by sword or even pressure have not happened but Koran does not recommend that.

The same book is read by Muslim radicals and MUslim moderates but their actions are different. Now you can shift this to Hinduism too. Supporters of Narender Modi talk about “Raj Dharama” as a good model. But Dharma is associated with Hinduism (which could be a good thing ideally) and Modi’s model who is a poster boy of Hindutva and there is no doubt the guy will not repeat the Gujarat riots (he does not regret it till now). So this is all political stuff and radicals take advantage to move masses. The degree varies, it is everywhere. So these radicals are the same all over and they use holy books to achieve their sick goals.

@Rehmat
I think you did not read my second post. I am copy pasting here again:
“Moreover so many centuries have passed since the original version that we hardly know that knowledge coming to us have been carried correctly to us by our forefathers. What if the holy books have been deliberately tempered with in some point of time to achieve certain political goals?? So it is left to one’s own intelligence to find out the meanings”

I was expecting a post from you on this. What Quran says is known to both of us so discussing that would be trivial. I agree with what you stated (Did I ever disagree on that in first place?). A large section of hindus (of course NOT from political circles) accept that religious text might have been tempered with and moreover with every translation the meanings get distorted specially when the original language (sanskrit) is a dead one. Now do the ordinary muslims like yourself accept this or not for holy books of Islam that over so many centuries the text might be distorted?? The chances of Islam, Christian text distortion is high because of them being followed by a much larger population than hinduism all over the world. What are your thoughts??

Logically speaking, the chances of distortions for any book over a long period of time are there. Not many would agree to that nor would they think such a thing which should not come as a surprise. But I cannot say one way or the other.

@Rehmat
Quite a diplomatic answer! But I hope you and other people on this blog would agree that one must use one’s God given brains before blindly following what is written in Gita, Quran, Bible, etc or any other religious book. Its better one does not follow any book if one doesn’t understands deeper meanings of them.

777Quran is probably the only divine book which has never been altered or tampered with. It is the same as it was revealed on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) centuries ago, similarly many Hafiz-Quran (those who learn the book by heart) then we have the book of ‘Hadith’ or ‘sayings of Prophet Muhammad’ If there is any matter there are clear instructions in Quran, Hadith is also there and if a certain matter is not clearly mentioned in either Quran or Hadith then Muslim scholars in that case sit together and based on their knowledge come up with an explanation ‘Fatwa’ or ruling and it is called ‘Ijtiha” note the word “Ijtihad” not Jihad. Islam is simple and Quran is straight forward, no secrets everything spelled out clearly. Equality, brotherhood, justice, good deeds, please Allah, say regular 5 times prayers give alms to poor, perform pilgrimage to Mecca once in a lifetime.

Umairpk: “Quran is probably the only divine book which has never been altered or tampered with. It is the same as it was revealed on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) centuries ago”

I understand your religious sentiments and respect them. I do not want to turn my views here into a religious argument. What I am going to say is not meant to be offensive in any way.

The Quran was revealed orally. From what I have read, Muhammad’s followers memorized some verses. Some were copied onto leaves and leather. After the passing of the prophet, the first Caliph Abu Bakr ordered the collection of the verses. There were different versions and variations when they compiled the verses. Four versions looked significant amongst all. A group of close and trusted followers finally settled on one version and they organized it in terms of the longest verse first to the shortest one. This is the version of the Quran that has been passed down through generations. This version has not been tampered with. But it is exactly not in the order of what was revealed. There is a possibility that some revelations were lost to eternity and some might have undergone distortion. No one knows. The Hadith is based on verification. Many references say so and so said that so and so heard that so and so said .. and the chain is long.

Quran is the first attempt at a constitution. Compared to many other religious edicts, Quran is quite modern in its structure. Arab conquest following the death of the prophet is the first organized colonization on a vast scale. Every region so colonized shifted to the same Arabic system defined by the Quran over time. There are variations of course due to 1400 years of history.

The Hindus have their Vedas which were strictly passed on from generation to generation orally. Interestingly Vedas were developed in the fertile land of Punjab, most of which is in Pakistan today. If you look at the structure of the Vedas you will find an interesting method to minimize variations. Lines will repeat. The first line will say something and the second line will have almost half or more of the first line. This way repetition would make memorization easy. And all the mantras have to be said in a specific way by means of accentuation, pause, stretch with musical tones. It is very similar to the way the Quran is recited with a musical element with specific emphasis on syllables.

I am no expert on Islam. However, I have always been curious to learn about world religions and their history. My apologies if I have offended anyone.

You did not offend me, and it is a healthy activity to initiate an inter-faith dialogue. The post 9-11 world needs to create an inter-faith dialogue and understanding between different faith, Islam incourages it:

“O people! Behold, we have created you from a male and a female and have made you into nations and tribes so that you might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware.” [Qur’an 49:13]

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia initiated a conference in 2008 on interfaith-dialogue and encouraged understanding between Mulims, christians, jews, hindus etc. You must make an effort to learn the basics of Islam, the five pillars of Islam. The ‘tafseer’ (Detailed explanation/interpretation) of Quran is some advance level reading. But you can go through basic verses of Quran. This way its easier to understand the other faith. In return, I as a Muslim would not interfere in a hindu’s or Sikh’s life. You can keep ur way of life, just as Pakistani govt. provides welcome each year to thousands of Sikh pilgrims at Baba Guru nanak ceremonies at his birthplace in Hasanabdal. This is the way to co-exist and create harmony between people of all faiths and have tolerance. Islam is a very moderate religion that always preaches to take the middle path. Never go to extremes, something done by a minority few and eventually bring a bad name to the majority.

Thanks for your words. I agree with you that contempt has to be eradicated in religious matters.

I have been an avid reader of various religious books, including the Hindu, Zoarashtrian, Abrahamic and other ancient religions. I always try to find the common essence between all of them. What Muhammad experienced at the time of first revelation has a name in the Indian system. One’s breath stops, heart beat stops and one literally faces a death like condition in deep meditation. Muhammad describes it as Angel Gabriel holding his breath and asking him to read. Worldwide many saints, yogis, sufis, even ordinary people have experienced a similar phenomenon. When they enter that realm initially fear grips them. But they go through it because they cannot fight it. Muhammad describes it as angel Gabriel holding him from breathing. It is a terrifying experience. But as it repeats, these people become used to it and enter a blissful state. In that state any talent can be exposed. Poems arise. Many saints in India have sung praises on the Divine in a similar ecstatic state. Many scriptures have been produced in that state. That is why people treat them as holy entities. Entering that state is only alluded to by different means. In Islam, it is described as Muhammad riding a horse to Heaven. Moses talks about a burning bush which does not burn down.

I’d encourage you to read about other religions as well. You will see that humans have the same spiritual goals no matter what system they follow. I generally get into arguments with people when they declare that theirs is the most perfect religion or other humans have no spiritual value. Just like Muslims should be respected for their faith and belief, so should others be. In that case, we should never declare openly that ours is the most perfect religion or our holy books are the most perfect. To every individual his or her system is the best. I’d leave it at that.

@Umairpk
Be careful in preaching to the non-believers. They have not been blessed with the enlightenment even after centuries of association with muslims. Even so called muslims from that land have made utterences indicating their disbelief in the creator and the prophets.
Quraan is not a book for a debate!
The believer is not to question but to accept unconditionaly.
Several bilingual theologists have tried to translate the arabic text in several other languages. But to understand the text in the original language as well as other languages, one needs a great insight and spirtual guidence to comprehend the narrations and herein commandments of the Creator.
The Creator and the verses of Quraan are free of any external causal influences. It is futile for the rationalist to use ‘ a priori reasoning’ for belief in God.

I was being truthful and concise, not diplomatic. You should know that this is something people of all religions are ultra sensitive to. I can split hair talking about holy Koran, Geeta/Vedas/GuruGranth Sahib.

What Rex said : “The believer is not to question but to accept unconditionaly.” is the central belief in Muslims. There is no discussion about Koran. Now the same is true about the holy book of Sikhs. No research is allowed. Both books are different from PERHAPS Hindu scriptures. Apart from that, I really cannot say more than the commonly known belief how Koran was written. That it got tampered, I have no idea. That it was lost in translation, yes happens all the time to non-holy book too. It is not easy to reproduce the exact same in another language.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

@Umair

I would like to know your personal views on the word “non-believer”. You would have seen me spending time on this guy Rex.

Look at him what he says”

“Be careful in preaching to the non-believers. They have not been blessed with the enlightenment even after centuries of association with muslims. Even so called muslims from that land have made utterences indicating their disbelief in the creator and the prophets”

****I am tired of him saying the same thing like a kid. Perhaps you can say few words on “non-believer” since we are at it now. The idea should be understand each other.

Now both of you are from a culture where you have not interacted with people from other religions. So if you do not know let me explain.

Muslims, Christians and Jews are all “people of the book” Ahl al-Kitab). The supreme form is monotheistic Abrahmic religions. In India, Muslim scholars since long time (Rex needs to forget his metaphysics for a moment and know about all that) have tried to do what we are doing here—the Inter-religious faith.

What this metaphysicist calls “non-believers” are called ahl-kitab by Muslim scholars. I am not even going into the English of it [“non-believer” in what? ]. So Sikhs also fall in that category since they have their own scripture as do Zoroastrians.

WE can leave this discussion here. For those interested in GOD–the non-book part of the disacussion (which is extremely important), GOD in both Hindus and Sikhs is monotheistic entity. As soon as one rejects Hindu and Sikh as a “non-believer”, you reject Christians as well (which is happening these days). What people are not keeping pace with is what has been taught by Muslim scholars in India since long (or else where which I do not know of). Akbar tried his own best to promote inter-religious faith not just superficially but by merging from Islam and HInduism (and even from other religions) the best components and created another religion Din-i llahi. One can call him blasphemer too. Thank God Rex was not born.

In the end, I can quote Koran as much as I want or 777 can quote Geeta or KPS the Guru Granth Sahib, if we do not really practice it or if we encroach on others that is beginning of the trouble. My actions are for others to judge, not for me to self-proclaim. Rights and responsibility is a new concept but that extends to religions and its practice as well.

May be you know better than others. Is there any moderated forum where inter-faith discussions are held? I’d like to see the discussions there and participate in it. I’d love to participate in something where people are not slinging mud at each other, but are sharing their values so that I can gain some more insight into it. Thanks in advance.

@ The mob
Religion is not the topic of this blog, but religion is the divide between India and Pakistan; it lead to partition and several wars, and it would seem that it is heading for a desastor. You have been poking your nose in all domestic matters of Pakistan and not even sparing the outsiders who show any sypathy for Pakistan. Now you have taken a step further by encroaching on the scriptures and its interpretations.

I have deliberately avoided to use the word ‘infidel’ and instead call people of non Ibrahimic faith as non-believers. Those who are guided by their brains and intellect, call it what you may, but not by the commandments of God are simply non-believers.

I could not care less about what Akbar did in his times nor have any time to consider his motives or explanations for his actions as a ruler or a muslim. We are all sinners and those who professed to be muslims, jews and christians believe in life after death and recognise the existence of evil in this world.

Religion is a matter of personal faith and individual experience. You can quote Quraan as you want, no one can impose on you otherwise, but by this act you are also challenging the faith of other muslims and risk being pronounced by the theologists as the ‘Infidel’. Your comparison Of Quraan with non-Ibramic religion alone places you outside the realms of Islam.

We all must learn to organise our knowledge which to an extent depends on the structure of the mind and not the world alone, and reflect our perceptions and the realism, without disregarding our moraä duties and responsibilities.
To blame our behaviour, which falls ouside the morals or laws of the society we live in, on one’s faith is mischievious and evil. The reality is that our actions do not correlate always with the religious or non religion teachings. People are blowing themselves apart and trying to hurt the innocents in every part of the world and this is not on account of their faith but reflect their grievences and the violence experienced by them or their families and could be associated with several other factors. These cannot be justified, and is the challenge of our times. The political use or misuse of the one’s faith is evil and needs to be confronted by the societies. And not try to interpret or reinterpret the scriptures.
our actions do not fully correlate with religious teachings, but definitely influenced by the political pundits of this world and the injustice and non social behaviour of many leaders.

“but by this act you are also challenging the faith of other muslims and risk being pronounced by the theologists as the ‘Infidel’. Your comparison Of Quraan with non-Ibramic religion alone places you outside the realms of Islam.”

***Retard, as I said Muslim scholars in India have done that (Akbar was just an example, you dumb!).

Islam does not recognise a pope or a scholar to represent the almighty. A theologist knows more than the non theoligist, similar to what the doctor of medicine knows more that the patient, no more.
The prophets have left us the scriptures and God has given us the brain, that you guys have been talking about all the time, a complete system to understand the entire universe and the galaxies and the ‘black hole’ and beyond. Surprisingly, brain is the only part which the humans make very minimum use of it during the life cycle.

We go to school to learn, attend Universites to firm our knowledge and prepare ourselves for PHD and more or adopt a working life to raise a family and earn one’s livelihood. We do no longer löok back to the teachers and the professors who taught us the basics but not the ultimate. We then stop and say the ultimate is known to God alone, others continue to learn and learn and keep on learning. Many unfortunate ones not having any education or a limited one, start saying at an early age that only God knows the ultimate.

You want to learn about the Quraan, then learn the arabic language first, live in Arabia to understand and comprehend the spoken and written language of arabs. Do not miss the five times prayers and learn with the help of a theoligist or a scholar if you will, who are ahead of you in Quraan studies. If God almighty then bestows upon you the enlightenment, you would be able to follow the versus of God almighty. This process in my view is more difficult than obtaining the Nobel Prize in science or medicine. Every student of quraan attains a certain level, some higher than other but not the ultimate.

How can one quote a higher authority than the Creator whose book one is blessed to read? No one has more power and knowledge than the God almighty. If one is able to appreciate this then there is hope for peace in this world. None of us has the right to speak for God or try to interpret the Quraan for others. The mission for the leaders of the country is to educate every one, freedom alone is not going to end this paranoie.

Cave Mullah: “@ The mob
Religion is not the topic of this blog, but religion is the divide between India and Pakistan; it lead to partition and several wars, and it would seem that it is heading for a desastor.”

Religion was never an issue. It has been used for political purposes to achieve selfish goals. It is not new. It has been the case since time immemorial. Since you are blind and have no idea about history, you are simply ranting non-sense off. India-Pakistan tension today has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims. It has everything to do with a military cartel that has evolved into a monster over the years due to various reasons. Understand the reality first before you go mouthing off nonsense.

“You have been poking your nose in all domestic matters of Pakistan and not even sparing the outsiders who show any sypathy for Pakistan.”

Since when did you become the gate keeper for the affairs of Pakistan? Do we need your permission? You claim you are a German. So why don’t stay there and not poke your nose into the sub-continent. We are still here. We are the ones who have the right to determine our future.

“Now you have taken a step further by encroaching on the scriptures and its interpretations.”

I am waiting for your fatwa. Do not delay it. I will become famous if you issue one. This is public forum. One can write whatever he thinks is appropriate. Forget about my encroachment, you abusing the freedom of the public domain to excrete your warped garbage.

“I have deliberately avoided to use the word ‘infidel’ and instead call people of non Ibrahimic faith as non-believers. Those who are guided by their brains and intellect, call it what you may, but not by the commandments of God are simply non-believers.”

No one really cares what you think. So keep your cave garbage stuffed inside. We are only having a good laugh at your comical nonsense that you have been filling up these pages with.

@Rex
“You want to learn about the Quraan, then learn the arabic language first, live in Arabia to understand and comprehend the spoken and written language of arabs”

Ohhh I never knew Islam is propriety religion of Arabs. Rehmat/Umair is this true? I somehow find it really funny. Rexy is becoming more of a joker by the day.

@KP/Mortal/Others
Why are u asking Rexy to shut up? Dont you guys like to laugh. I say we continue our discussions and when Rex comes up with some laughter then take it and laugh for laughter is the best medicine.

@Religion
Ultimate goal of any religion is to make a soul happy within itself while maintaining harmony with other souls. Whatever may be the means. Islam or any other religion tries to attain this by different means as per prevailing conditions of time and place.

When Rexy boy doesn’t knows about other religions then how can we give credit to his knowledge that Islam/Christanity/Judaism are only religions worth following and all others are infidels. Let him live in his false imaginations. Lets just pray that his imaginations do not pose a danger to others or himself.

But on a serious note the ‘INFIDELS’ LIKE Rex are the ones who pose a danger to peace. Beware all; Pashtoon coming!!!

@777
If I were you, I would take the advice of Brian decree. You certainly need help and take Singh with you!

Rex Minor
PS Brian reckoned that you are sick and need help, but I am giving you the benefit of doubt and blaming your education system, since most of you are following a certain pattern of rudeness when you are unable to comprehend a simple sentence. This is a Reuters Blog and not meant for people of your class.

Cave Mullah: “This is a Reuters Blog and not meant for people of your class.”

True. When people of your caliber are flooding the blog, it does not seem appropriate for people of our class. But we have to do what we have to do because you guys build history with lies. If not checked, you guys can make the world buried under fabricated lies. That is why we come here.

“Why are u asking Rexy to shut up? Dont you guys like to laugh. I say we continue our discussions and when Rex comes up with some laughter then take it and laugh for laughter is the best medicine” Posted by 777xxx777

@Rex
“If I were you, I would take the advice of Brian decree. You certainly need help and take Singh with you!”

I laughed him off as I laugh you off often. Let the moderators decide who needs help. If you call people of other faith an infidel just because other persons do not follow your religions then we all know who needs help.
BTW yo always shout that you have no sympathy for losers and since US is loser in Afghanistan so US does not deserve sympathy; fine; then may I know why you sympathize with Pakistan which has lost not 1 or 2 but 4 wars to India??
Thats the problem with lying, Lies become inconsistent over a period of time and so is your case. Don’t bother answering, I expect you to run away from difficult questions as usual.

@Rehmat
“He has impressed many that all Pushtoons behave like Taliban. One need to be careful. He uses this strategy many times”

I am copy pasting once again here what i typed: “Beware all; Pashtoon coming!!!” Did I say Pashtoon or Pashtoon(s)?? I hope that small ‘s’ makes a difference given the context. Normally I double check every single word I type before hitting the Submit button. But still if you feel my sentence needs moderation then I accept it whole heartedly.
Personally I respect Pashtoon tribe (of course the sensible ones) very much. One of the most toughened human beings probably of equal caliber as Mongols. Some of the finest people of the world are Pashtoons. And one of them even vehemently opposed the very idea of Pakistan and probably people like Rex might have called him an infidel and kaafir but he stayed firm on his stand till end. Ups and downs are part of every country’s history but that does not mean the cultural contributions go waste. So I agree with you that all Pashtoons are not Rex. And some like Rex are there in all communities be it hindu, muslim, jew or any other.

@777
You should not laugh at people when they call you Sick. If you are not what Brian assumed from your note than say so and clarify it. I noted that he was genuine in his assessment. I have found him and kingfisher, one of the few with a very high caliber of intellect and experience. You guys are unique in the world communities, with a mob mentality, very difficult to follow you, not many had the experience to live in a land occupied by a foreign force for centuries. You guys sound very angry as if you are under attack, very jumpy not prepared to accept critic.

To answer your question, I have no sympathy with Pakistan on two grounds,namely use of military against civilians and having lost the battles or wars against India. Even worst, having surrendered its army.
India has copied Pakistan, use of military against civilians. sikhs and kashmiri muslims and then lost its claimed territory against China.
Hard but fair, facts are there and stay if not denied. I have had comments from an ex pakistani military man, outlining the reason for military setbacks. I have no feelings for reasons of defeat. both militaries have been trained to follow the Montgomery doctrine for attack, defence and withdrawl, so simple are the reasons.

And still the rhetoric by both Pakistani and Indian leaders, threatning each other with consequences.

It is not difficult to determine the level of ones education and the upbringing. Try to learn what does a lie implies? Deception is a lie, I am not here to deceive any one far I do not have any motive. We are in the milinium of the knowledge society, each of us learning from another and collectively and this I am afraid I do not notice among the Indians in this blog. There are no lies in this world, different views and opinions and observation and analysis. Deceptions and propaganda are made up of lies. Misinformed people are not liars but misinformed or have a paranoie. I do not check or recheck the words and spellings. I have very little patience with people of a lesser education and intellect background, particularly when they become rude and call others with different views as ignorants. Indians on this blog must learn to live with people of other views and opinions.
Regarding your second question, there were many who opposed vehmently as you call it the idea of Pakistan. I have answered it to one of your other inquisitive fellow citizen. The khan bros were popular leaders in their tribe. Every one must learn to accept the majority views, no matter how wrong they could be.

Rex Minor

PS Now do not come back and ask further questions. stick with your comments on the article. I have broken off diplomatic relations with others.

@777
Sorry, I forgot to comment on pashtoons and talibans. They are the one people!
Today, the talibans i.e. students in Britain, France and Italy are violently demonstrating against the current Govts. against their austerity decisions. The students have the support of the public who in most cases join them. They are all one people.
You guys are living in the neighbourhood of and shouild know that all the Pashtoons who are rebelling and taking arms against Pakisdtan are themselves calling themselves as Talibans, the label which was once used by the Taliban movement and then later became the common denomination of the foreigners and today it has become the common denomination of all the resistence groups. If you guys do not understand this then I have nothing more to converse with you lot. Keep using the American terminologies splitting hairs. We have used the word ‘communist’ in Europe and ‘liberal’ in the USA to describe those who are not conservatives. The twelve million communist germans who joined us are no longer communists and for some time we called them ‘the easterns’ and now we do not even call them with this name.

@Rex
On one hand you say it is a world of opinions and on other hand you try to belittle everyone who does not agree with your opinions. Making stupid comments on intellect and education and religions is considered rude in our culture. If you cannot respect our culture then how can you expect respect for yourself from us. One should not raise his voice but improve his argument. You keep on telling all the negatives about India and Pakistan and we kept accepting them but on the side we kept telling you that things are improving, may be slowly to your taste but we are what we are. And then you start slinging mud. I am sure German education does not teach that. I remember you kept on typing my name as “@ three 7″ and then lectured me on not getting personal. Haa. Take your own advice and start accepting disagreements to your opinions and try NOT making comments on religion, education, intellect, etc of the other person. At least TRY!

“The twelve million communist germans who joined us are no longer communists and for some time we called them ‘the easterns’ and now we do not even call them with this name”

Unlike Germany and Pakistan, in India we never called migrant people from Pakistan with any names.

” If you are not what Brian assumed from your note than say so and clarify it”

Laughing off is considered a rejection and a clear clarification beyond any doubt in our culture. So if you do not understand that then I am telling you that now.