concentration camps

Location:Connecticut's Côte Brune (I've never seen brown sea water before)

Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:23 PM

Well...my whole way of thinking about it would be better explained this way (hold on, it might be a twisty-turny ride!):

A lot of paranormal investigations (real or on television) share one thing in common. The want recognition, and in the case of those television shows, recognition brings money. How would they get recognition? By publicizing their investigation and any evidence (real, misinterpreted, misrepresented or faked) that they gather. Imagine being the lucky ones who'd get invited to perform a paranormal investigation into a place like a former concentration camp! They'd be the first! You know you'll hear about it! They'd make sure of it.

Now, there will be some that say "Oh! We don't do this for the money! We don't do this for the recognition!". Suppose they get credible evidence that they've contacted spirits...what're they gonna do? They're going to use this to their advantage, of course. The more "evidence" a group finds, the more credibility they get. The more credibility, the more possibilities to do their thing someplace else. The game continues...

Now, let's stroll over to another possibility for their motives:

The excitement of the investigation. They'd treat it like telling ghost stories around a camp fire. To see how spooked they could get. Misinterpreting any unknown sound into "spirit voices" or, any technical glitch into "paranormal interference". And seances - it annoys me when people treat one like a party - complete with parlor tricks! Every October 31, a former friend of mine would attend a seance, hoping to contact the spirit of Sarah Good, one of the first women to die during the Salem witchcraft hysteria. I asked him, "why? what are you trying to accomplish by contacting her?", to which he could only reply "because it'd be neat".

I have no problem with people who investigate the paranormal - but I can only hope they do so with sincerity and respect. If they're going to do it for anything other than the genuine search for knowledge and understanding; if their motives are for recognition, profit or because it would be "neat"...then I have no respect for these people.

It's not just concentration camps (an English invention during the Boer Wars), look up "pogroms".

If there is one people on God's green Earth that have earned the right to be left the heck alone, it's the Jews.

The only difference between Socialism and National Socialism is the snappy uniforms. - Logan "Aside from ending Slavery, Fascism and Communist World Domination, War has never solved anything! ""For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute! But it's "Savior of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot." - Rudyard Kipling "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."---George Orwell "Always Remember-All Lessons in Life are Expensive.....and the last one costs you everything you have." - Logan" Socialism is just Communism without a Dictator....and you can always find a Dictator!" - Logan "An Armed Man is a Citizen. An Unarmed Man is a Subject. Subject to anything anyone wants to do to him." - Logan "Without the Second Amendment there is no First Amendment...or Third or Fourth or Fifth....or 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th or 27th!" - Logan

Location:Connecticut's Côte Brune (I've never seen brown sea water before)

Posted 02 June 2013 - 07:47 AM

If there is one people on God's green Earth that have earned the right to be left the heck alone, it's the Jews.

True - but the Jews were not the only people who died in the camps. When you look at the photographs of the piles of bodies found after the camps were liberated, you can't tell who's Jewish and who isn't - you just see bodies. If you just look at them as human beings...not what god they worshipped, or political affiliations, or ethnic background, or whether they were mentally or physically handicapped, or sexual orientation, you can see the true tragedy of mankind. I'm not dismissing that nearly 6M Jews died in the camps, I try to look at the whole picture - that these (approximately) 11M people died in relation to the camps.

To think "oh, how cool would it be to investigate a concentration camp (or 'death camp')", is incredibly insensitive and offensive (in my opinion).

Yes, the first inmates were the mentally and physically handicapped who didn't fit the Teutonic/Aryan picture Hitler had of the German peoples but soon everyone else were tossed into them.

With the Einsatzgruppen and their Kommando I think the count is more than 6 million.

I've come to the conclusion that History is just not taught anymore.

Of course I've been of the opinion that Reality hasn't been taught in years.........

The only difference between Socialism and National Socialism is the snappy uniforms. - Logan "Aside from ending Slavery, Fascism and Communist World Domination, War has never solved anything! ""For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute! But it's "Savior of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot." - Rudyard Kipling "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."---George Orwell "Always Remember-All Lessons in Life are Expensive.....and the last one costs you everything you have." - Logan" Socialism is just Communism without a Dictator....and you can always find a Dictator!" - Logan "An Armed Man is a Citizen. An Unarmed Man is a Subject. Subject to anything anyone wants to do to him." - Logan "Without the Second Amendment there is no First Amendment...or Third or Fourth or Fifth....or 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th or 27th!" - Logan

All of the points you guys made are well-taken and make sense, but I'm still of the belief that if one group of the deceased is supposedly "off limits", then shouldn't all historic places with potential or confirmed paranormal activity be off limits? Investigating a Civil War, WW1, WW2 battlefield, disaster site, or illness-specific hospital with large losses of life should be considered just as sacred as a concentration camp, but it seems that their spiritual situation is considered fair game. Their suffering should not be dismissed. And as meanderer touched on, finding a group to investigate that would not try to milk any finding for personal gain would be difficult; that would be an extreme sore point with me.
Oh, and meaderer, it's good to see you on here again, soap box or no soap box.

Location:Connecticut's Côte Brune (I've never seen brown sea water before)

Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:39 PM

Well, jimmary - I see your point as to why one would be more "sacred" than any other, and as I'd mention further back that (without bringing religion back into the topic), I would think that, what separates concentration camps from any other of the examples you've listed (battlefields, disaster sites, hospitals, etc) is the great number of victims of both genders and all age groups. A wide spectrum of European civilians that didn't suit the needs of the people in power. Nothing, in the entire history of mankind, comes close to the atrocities of the camps. It's because of that, alone, that I wrote what I did.

In my opinion, battlefields, warships, disaster areas, hospitals...even Ground Zero in lower Manhattan (oh, I'm sure I'll catch some heat over this!) could never reach the level of respect the victims of the camps should be given.

I stop by here, from time to time...and when a topic catches my eye I'll read it. This one just kinda tweeked a nerve and I felt that I had to offer my opinion. I usually offer my opinion to others, even when they know they don't want it.

That's a way better explanation, meanderer. I still feel that anything should be open to investigating, but there is a lot to consider when forming that view. I would accept a chance to perform such an investigation, but respect and kindness would be foremost in my approach. I don't know if that kind of investigation will happen in our lifetime, but I think it will happen someday. I just hope whomever performs said investigation doesn't take it lightly or for the glory.
no1plumbrr, I understand.

Location:Connecticut's Côte Brune (I've never seen brown sea water before)

Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:26 AM

I'm not an investigator (and IMO, I think many so-called 'investigations' are a whole lot of hooey, anyway) but, I have to ask: What would be the purpose of an 'investigation', anyway? If you know what actually happened in a particular camp, other than offering sincere condolences to any spirits or souls that may still be there, why would you want to bother any of them? Would they appreciate finding people waving gadgets with blinking lights, asking all sorts of questions in a language they might not understand...which brings up something that's always bothered me: How can all these investigators go to a foreign place and ask questions in a language that wouldn't be familiar to any spirits they are trying to contact...and if you get an answer, how would you know what they're saying? If someone were to investigate any of these former camps, shouldn't they be fluent (or have a very good, working vocabulary) in the predominant languages of Europe (and Western Russia) from 1933 to 1945? Waltzing in, asking questions in English would probably not be very conducive to any serious investigation. Many of the victims of the camps had probably never heard English being spoken so, questions in English wouldn't make sense, would it?

Interests:Serious Research and separating the truth from the hype in the paranormal field today.

Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:47 PM

Let's back up a bit... For one, what proof is there that the paranormal and death are related? It is possible that something entirely different may be at work, therefore it could be no more beneficial to investigate a concentration came or ground zero than any other place. If one approaches in that light, seeking answers with a truely open mind accepting that ANY possibility is on the table, then I don't see a problem investigating any site. After all, under those conditions what happened may not have a thing to do with Jews, Nazis, terrorists, or any thing else related directly to the site.It would not be disrespectful if done properly as an unbiased investigation seeking only answers. We need to expand our approach to consider that the traditional ghost / spirit theory might be something we haven't even considered yet. (Alien, interdemensional being, or maybe even a controlled form of halucination brought on by who knows who or what.) We need to go beyond the traditional ghost theory most accept today and which has also brought few real answers to date.

I'm not an investigator (and IMO, I think many so-called 'investigations' are a whole lot of hooey, anyway) but, I have to ask: What would be the purpose of an 'investigation', anyway? If you know what actually happened in a particular camp, other than offering sincere condolences to any spirits or souls that may still be there, why would you want to bother any of them? Would they appreciate finding people waving gadgets with blinking lights, asking all sorts of questions in a language they might not understand...which brings up something that's always bothered me: How can all these investigators go to a foreign place and ask questions in a language that wouldn't be familiar to any spirits they are trying to contact...and if you get an answer, how would you know what they're saying? If someone were to investigate any of these former camps, shouldn't they be fluent (or have a very good, working vocabulary) in the predominant languages of Europe (and Western Russia) from 1933 to 1945? Waltzing in, asking questions in English would probably not be very conducive to any serious investigation. Many of the victims of the camps had probably never heard English being spoken so, questions in English wouldn't make sense, would it?

Again - this is just my opinion. Your actual mileage may vary.

I don't even want to think about "Trigger Objects".

The only difference between Socialism and National Socialism is the snappy uniforms. - Logan "Aside from ending Slavery, Fascism and Communist World Domination, War has never solved anything! ""For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute! But it's "Savior of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot." - Rudyard Kipling "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."---George Orwell "Always Remember-All Lessons in Life are Expensive.....and the last one costs you everything you have." - Logan" Socialism is just Communism without a Dictator....and you can always find a Dictator!" - Logan "An Armed Man is a Citizen. An Unarmed Man is a Subject. Subject to anything anyone wants to do to him." - Logan "Without the Second Amendment there is no First Amendment...or Third or Fourth or Fifth....or 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th or 27th!" - Logan

Location:Connecticut's Côte Brune (I've never seen brown sea water before)

Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:36 AM

Following up your line of logic, CaveRat, if something other than death could be associated with the paranormal (to which I agree), what would be the need to "investigate" anything so readily associated with death, or pain and suffering? Are you suggesting that something else could be the reason why these places might be hot spots for paranormal activity? Why not conduct these "investigations" in open spaces, or parking lots, etc? Is there some sort of rule book that says these investigations are best conducted in places with a known history of death?

Sometimes (ok...most of the time), humans do things to other humans out of hatred. Sadly, that's how some people are. Other people are readily convinced that something is a good idea, and a way to A - achieve greatness in the eyes of their leaders, fellow country-men or their god, B - advance their struggle against perceived oppressors or scapegoats or, C - "we just really hate these people, so let's kill as many of them as we can". I just feel that standing in the middle of a crematorium with all sorts of gadgets is not going to change that or enlighten anybody as to the "how" and "why" places like that existed. Say you want to investigate "why" something like the concentration (and/or) extermination camps existed, wouldn't it make more sense to investigate where the notion of "the final solution" was conceived, in Berlin? What would make these people sit around, listening to the proposals, and think "now...there's a good idea! That Himmler is a real go-getter."? Wouldn't the birthplace of the idea of genocide be "more ideal" than the places where the idea was carried out? Going with your idea that "paranormal" shouldn't always be connected to the idea of suffering and death, I would think it'd possibly be more beneficial to hold an investigation in Berlin where "the final solution" was proposed, or the houses in Afghanistan where the idea of flying planes into the World Trade Center was suggested. These are the places where human behavior and logic initially went off the rails. Standing at Ground Zero, or in the middle of Auschwitz puts you where hatred struck, and many innocent people suffered.

Interests:Serious Research and separating the truth from the hype in the paranormal field today.

Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:42 PM

Following up your line of logic, CaveRat, if something other than death could be associated with the paranormal (to which I agree), what would be the need to "investigate" anything so readily associated with death, or pain and suffering? Are you suggesting that something else could be the reason why these places might be hot spots for paranormal activity? Why not conduct these "investigations" in open spaces, or parking lots, etc? Is there some sort of rule book that says these investigations are best conducted in places with a known history of death?

Sometimes (ok...most of the time), humans do things to other humans out of hatred. Sadly, that's how some people are. Other people are readily convinced that something is a good idea, and a way to A - achieve greatness in the eyes of their leaders, fellow country-men or their god, B - advance their struggle against perceived oppressors or scapegoats or, C - "we just really hate these people, so let's kill as many of them as we can". I just feel that standing in the middle of a crematorium with all sorts of gadgets is not going to change that or enlighten anybody as to the "how" and "why" places like that existed. Say you want to investigate "why" something like the concentration (and/or) extermination camps existed, wouldn't it make more sense to investigate where the notion of "the final solution" was conceived, in Berlin? What would make these people sit around, listening to the proposals, and think "now...there's a good idea! That Himmler is a real go-getter."? Wouldn't the birthplace of the idea of genocide be "more ideal" than the places where the idea was carried out? Going with your idea that "paranormal" shouldn't always be connected to the idea of suffering and death, I would think it'd possibly be more beneficial to hold an investigation in Berlin where "the final solution" was proposed, or the houses in Afghanistan where the idea of flying planes into the World Trade Center was suggested. These are the places where human behavior and logic initially went off the rails. Standing at Ground Zero, or in the middle of Auschwitz puts you where hatred struck, and many innocent people suffered.

Let's go with this a bit... Do we not study battlefields for their historical value? Military buffs study the battle plans of Gettysburg and can recite the who, when, and where of most commanders in the field. Certainly there is also a need to study the whys behind the war, but there may be information to be gained by studying the actual site as well. Thus I would contend that if some interdemensional beings were putting us under their microscopes they would likely study both places, the site and the people behind the scenes as well.

As to investigating just any old place there is also merit to that. Fact is we don't know what is behind all this, so maybe your backyard just happens to be the hot spot for some visitation. In fact, look historically at sightings around Gettysburg. We consider the battlefield very haunted. But if one digs a bit it becomes apparent that there were actually very few instances of ghostly activity reported there up until it became popular on TV and the media. Sure there were some, but that also holds true in many places. Most communities have their legends and ghost stories going back through history. Even Gettysburg, there are also stories that predate the battle ad also stories that occur more recently. one might suppose that this is really an ongoing phenomena and that it really doesn't take a disaster or large casualty list to make a haunt.

Finally, you put forth some reasons why "they" may be here. We have to remember tht we don't really know if "they" exist and we certainly can't assume we know what they may be interested in. They may be interested in studying how we respond to what happened. Did we learn from it? Will we make the same mistakes again? The "haunt" may be less about the deaths than about ho we respond.and our visitors may simply be observing us. All conjecture of course. But consider too we may simply be ants in their ant farm. They may be simply playing with us. One entity looks at the other and says, "Poke 'em with a stick. Make 'em think they see ghosts and watch what they do!" Silly? Probably, but it does show we need to be more open to possibilities that we may not have even thought of yet.

Location:Connecticut's Côte Brune (I've never seen brown sea water before)

Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:16 AM

Let's go with this a bit... Do we not study battlefields for their historical value? Military buffs study the battle plans of Gettysburg and can recite the who, when, and where of most commanders in the field. Certainly there is also a need to study the whys behind the war, but there may be information to be gained by studying the actual site as well. Thus I would contend that if some interdemensional beings were putting us under their microscopes they would likely study both places, the site and the people behind the scenes as well.

As to investigating just any old place there is also merit to that. Fact is we don't know what is behind all this, so maybe your backyard just happens to be the hot spot for some visitation. In fact, look historically at sightings around Gettysburg. We consider the battlefield very haunted. But if one digs a bit it becomes apparent that there were actually very few instances of ghostly activity reported there up until it became popular on TV and the media. Sure there were some, but that also holds true in many places. Most communities have their legends and ghost stories going back through history. Even Gettysburg, there are also stories that predate the battle ad also stories that occur more recently. one might suppose that this is really an ongoing phenomena and that it really doesn't take a disaster or large casualty list to make a haunt.

Finally, you put forth some reasons why "they" may be here. We have to remember tht we don't really know if "they" exist and we certainly can't assume we know what they may be interested in. They may be interested in studying how we respond to what happened. Did we learn from it? Will we make the same mistakes again? The "haunt" may be less about the deaths than about ho we respond.and our visitors may simply be observing us. All conjecture of course. But consider too we may simply be ants in their ant farm. They may be simply playing with us. One entity looks at the other and says, "Poke 'em with a stick. Make 'em think they see ghosts and watch what they do!" Silly? Probably, but it does show we need to be more open to possibilities that we may not have even thought of yet.

I absolutely agree with your first paragraph...up to your referring to inter-dimensional beings...but I'll get back to that in a bit. Yes, I believe that there is still much that future generations could learn from studying the death camps, the battlefields and places of great human tragedies - almost like juries that personally visit crime scenes. You can learn a lot from illustrations and photographs, but until you're actually able to stand in a specific spot and see for yourself, the illustrations and drawings can only give you so much. With that in mind, I would have no problem whatsoever with visiting places like the Nazi death camps. And, if paranormal phenomena occurred during any of these visits, I would hope that it would be thoroughly investigated and rigorously documented - but to deliberately go, with the intention of stirring up the dust and disturbing any spirits who may be there, I would strongly say "no. let them rest in peace".Your statement about the influx of reported paranormal activity corresponding with the advent of popular media and television seems accurate enough. Then again - how likely would it have been if people felt comfortable reporting seeing a ghost to the local newspapers before television came around? Television offers people their 15 minutes in the spotlight ("hey ma! I'm on the teley-vision!") with a wider audience. And who could tell if half of those stories, these days, are even close to being true? Sensationalism. That's what the people want, even if it's made up. Take, for example, the recent program on Animal Planet about mermaids - it was all made up. All of it. And people believe it was true because it was "sensational". The same could probably be said about most of the people who say the seem ghostly regiments marching up hills at Gettysburg - it's probably not true, but it's "sensational".I'm a bit lost, CaveRat, by your use of the word "they". When I used it, I was referring to any souls or spirits of people who died because of the concentration camps. I was not even thinking about inter-dimensional beings (you brought that up, not me!). But let's bang that one on the head:Whether they exist or not is not what I think was the gist of the original post (I'd have to go back and read it), but if (as you write) they are the puppet-masters behind everything the human race goes thru...if they are Dr Pavlov and we are just their dogs....what would happen if we (as a species) decide to do nothing when they (those darned inter-dimensional buggers) ring the bell? If we begin to suspect that they're playing with us, should we continue playing their games?

No - what happened at the concentration camps was very real. Millions of innocent people died. To understand the historic value that we, as a species, can learn (even all these years afterward) is one thing - but to go around there, trying to contact anybody who'd died in these places would be greatly (IMO) disrespectful. And these people deserve respect, because they didn't get it when they were dying. Inter-dimensional beings or not, that's a stain we humans did ourselves. To say "maybe it was someone or something from some other universe (or whatever) is still dodging the plain, basic truth. Humans did it. And I'm not going to do anything when "they" (your use of the word, not mine) ring the bell - I'll wait to see the tasty treat before I start drooling.

I honestly think, and its just my biased opinion lol, that should be done by a Jewish group. Even though I'm not sure you could even get one too. Then the community would probably string them up by their you know what's lol.
BUT If I could get the people to be cool with it I would want to be an investigator there.