Since you took the time to write this, I will give you as frank a response as possible on the subjects that are under my control.

C - We were on Singularity from the 6th January with this release. Familiar as I am with the term release candidate, being in the software industry myself, I can tell you it was deployed on Monday morning to Sisi, as is par for the course with our deployments. This might seem crazily short to you, but our development method allows us to work right up until then because we do not hamper teams with code/feature freezes and have mature teams which practice 'Whole Team Quality' (more on this later) giving them the responsibility and accountability over the quality of the features they ship. This is a process I have seen evolve in my 2.5 years here to really empower teams, and it is one that I think works well. Further than this though, we deploy daily updates to Singularity to ensure users have the latest stable build available. Combine this with the internal QA coming from the teams, and our outsourcers running a full regression suite every 2 weeks, and you're looking at a pretty robust testing process.

i am sorry, but i think i might share this thought with many others.

your "Whole Team Quality" thing is NOT working, clearly.

there have been enought proof of that for at least the last TWO years.

being accountable for a problem doesn't solve the problem itself, once it is in the wild (understand on TQ) it is already TOO LATE.any efficient QA goal is to PREVENT issues from being released, not to blame someone once it's out.

regarding SISI, i really appreciate the work you do with it, especially the regular updates you bring, but judjing from, again, the past two years, the build released on TQ is NOT a build that happened to have been on SISI, wich allow you to fix a few things in between, i understand, but also bring some other issues, often FAR WORSE.

last point, regarding regression, please have a look at your last two years bug reports, then come here again and tell us you actually do run a regression suite.

How about all you arrogant players give me a list of games with out bugs or never have bugs after an update? Its impossible to guarantee a bug free release even if you tested an update successfully on another server prior to the live server release.

Posted - 2014.01.29 13:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
What a dim view you take of professional testing and testers calling them semi- or un-skilled workers. Rather offensive.

Of course if you pay with peanuts you're going to get monkeys - but plenty of professional testers I worked with (funnily enough in an outsourced testing team) were massively skilled and came from development backgrounds themselves.

Something to be wary of about outsourcing your testing though is the feedback you get on your delivery quality is always going to be politically slanted so if you deliver some crap 'coal' release they will come back and tell you it was 'near diamond' quality.

Your users will not be so kind and regardless of what you outline as your procedure, the number of bugs slipping through the net into releases tells me you have plenty of room for improvement.

Since you took the time to write this, I will give you as frank a response as possible on the subjects that are under my control.

C - We were on Singularity from the 6th January with this release. Familiar as I am with the term release candidate, being in the software industry myself, I can tell you it was deployed on Monday morning to Sisi, as is par for the course with our deployments. This might seem crazily short to you, but our development method allows us to work right up until then because we do not hamper teams with code/feature freezes and have mature teams which practice 'Whole Team Quality' (more on this later) giving them the responsibility and accountability over the quality of the features they ship. This is a process I have seen evolve in my 2.5 years here to really empower teams, and it is one that I think works well. Further than this though, we deploy daily updates to Singularity to ensure users have the latest stable build available. Combine this with the internal QA coming from the teams, and our outsourcers running a full regression suite every 2 weeks, and you're looking at a pretty robust testing process.

i am sorry, but i think i might share this thought with many others.

your "Whole Team Quality" thing is NOT working, clearly.

there have been enought proof of that for at least the last TWO years.

being accountable for a problem doesn't solve the problem itself, once it is in the wild (understand on TQ) it is already TOO LATE.any efficient QA goal is to PREVENT issues from being released, not to blame someone once it's out.

regarding SISI, i really appreciate the work you do with it, especially the regular updates you bring, but judjing from, again, the past two years, the build released on TQ is NOT a build that happened to have been on SISI, wich allow you to fix a few things in between, i understand, but also bring some other issues, often FAR WORSE.

last point, regarding regression, please have a look at your last two years bug reports, then come here again and tell us you actually do run a regression suite.

How about all you arrogant players give me a list of games with out bugs or never have bugs after an update? Its impossible to guarantee a bug free release even if you tested an update successfully on another server prior to the live server release.

Get a grip guys.

i think you just failed to read don't you?

i know that it is not possible to have a 100% free bug game, but i don't know any other MMO that screw up a major game feature EVRY SINGLE TIME they update the game.

tell me again how one would have missed the current standing issue if it would have been tested on another server? because except that the person running the test is blind, no way to miss it.

Posted - 2014.01.29 14:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
I like this update! I don't know what everyone else is smoking but there is some stuff in here that badly needed to be changed. Keep up the great work CCP. EVE feels more accessible than ever before, and I feel that no matter what ship I undock in that I have a comparable chance of success as others in the same hull class!

*(disclaimer: Only a some-time dev. More time spent in Validation Testing and actual operations, but I can hum the tune, and dance the step)Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Also it was on sisi for two weeks is no test either, I dont think that majority of eve knows anything about softwaretesting, they just want to fly ships they cant afford. And the ppl with software testing background probably cant be arsed to try stuff out, because software testing is work. I pay money to play a game, not to keep doing the suff I waste the other 10 hours every day on.

Isn't there an incentive to find a bug on Sisi? I've never been there, so I just don't know.

I don't have any specific hate against *this* update, other than for a few nasty bugs... which should not have happened.Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

How about all you arrogant players give me a list of games with out bugs or never have bugs after an update? Its impossible to guarantee a bug free release even if you tested an update successfully on another server prior to the live server release.

Get a grip guys.

This has nothing to do with arrogance. CCP QA is systematically failing, not on this release not on the last, but for the last few years. And they dont learn from their mistakes, this is the part where some ppl, like me get angry.

It might not be "in" to talk about software quality in games industry in times of kickstarter, greenlight and whatever, but it seems its still very nessesary to bring that topic up.

Of cause Eve is an old application, but the more important is it to keep the code clean and well tested. I'd rather see one team testing and onther one refactorng code, than all teams doing stuff, and breaking even more stuff in the progress.

I live in w-space for the last 3 years or so, there were no major changes to w-space in that time, but every patch is breaking something inside w-space, even if there are no features at all in patches that concern w-space.

This is a very good indicator for regression testing not working at all at ccp.

It might not be "in" to talk about software quality in games industry in times of kickstarter, greenlight and whatever, but it seems its still very nessesary to bring that topic up.

Of cause Eve is an old application, but the more important is it to keep the code clean and well tested. I'd rather see one team testing and onther one refactorng code, than all teams doing stuff, and breaking even more stuff in the progress.

I've seen my share of spaghetti code, and of poorly-validated products. Even more of poor development methoodology. CCP has the basic 'right stuff' but the dots aren't all connecting quite as they ought.

An over-all auditor with no development responsibility, but only a responsibility to police the process and step back to take a '10,000-foot look' might be helpful.

Also: I would willingly surrender new features for a couple years spent cleaning up and rationalizing the code. I understand that might not be commercially appetizing, but at the far end, new development would be so much easier...I also understand I might be in the distinct minority. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

What did I miss that was so incredibly game breaking that it has caused people to pretend they know anything about something?

Standings got broken and people were scared to undock.

Lmao, all of this just because standings.. that was some of the most fun I have had in ages.

I honestly wanted CCP to take there time over that one.. you know, maybe a few months

Nah. That kinda thing is only fun when it's totally random, and people haven't had time to figure out works-around. Once they adapt, the fun is gone.

Now, if New Eden were to be inflicted with haxxors whom went about, randomly screwing with sov, concord standings, and other important security markers, well... THAT would be comedy I could appreciate! Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Posted - 2014.01.29 15:13:00 -
[44] - Quote
Rule #1: In an ideal reality, QA tests are 100% efficient and consistently catch all bugs every time prior to the major release, no matter the quantity of features implemented, complexity of changes or sneakiness of said bug.

Rule #2: We don't live in an ideal reality.

Love the rageposting after this happened though, it's like a second boot.ini or Incarna. Just, you know, without actually being boot.ini or Incarna.Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet?

Rule #1: In an ideal reality, QA tests are 100% efficient and consistently catch all bugs every time prior to the major release, no matter the quantity of features implemented, complexity of changes or sneakiness of said bug.

Rule #2: We don't live in an ideal reality.

Whilst true, a closer approximation to Rule #1 is both possible, and desirable.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

It might not be "in" to talk about software quality in games industry in times of kickstarter, greenlight and whatever, but it seems its still very nessesary to bring that topic up.

Of cause Eve is an old application, but the more important is it to keep the code clean and well tested. I'd rather see one team testing and onther one refactorng code, than all teams doing stuff, and breaking even more stuff in the progress.

I've seen my share of spaghetti code, and of poorly-validated products. Even more of poor development methoodology. CCP has the basic 'right stuff' but the dots aren't all connecting quite as they ought.

An over-all auditor with no development responsibility, but only a responsibility to police the process and step back to take a '10,000-foot look' might be helpful.

Also: I would willingly surrender new features for a couple years spent cleaning up and rationalizing the code. I understand that might not be commercially appetizing, but at the far end, new development would be so much easier...I also understand I might be in the distinct minority.

It might not be "in" to talk about software quality in games industry in times of kickstarter, greenlight and whatever, but it seems its still very nessesary to bring that topic up.

Of cause Eve is an old application, but the more important is it to keep the code clean and well tested. I'd rather see one team testing and onther one refactorng code, than all teams doing stuff, and breaking even more stuff in the progress.

I've seen my share of spaghetti code, and of poorly-validated products. Even more of poor development methoodology. CCP has the basic 'right stuff' but the dots aren't all connecting quite as they ought.

An over-all auditor with no development responsibility, but only a responsibility to police the process and step back to take a '10,000-foot look' might be helpful.

Also: I would willingly surrender new features for a couple years spent cleaning up and rationalizing the code. I understand that might not be commercially appetizing, but at the far end, new development would be so much easier...I also understand I might be in the distinct minority.

+1 for using the word 'ought' !

I work with many, many folks over in the UK. It rubs off on one.Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

The part that amazes me about this whole thing is that CCP Goliath came here to address your concerns, tried to explain things, and did so taking time out of his work day (which incidentally is spent fixing the **** that everyone is bitching about).

And immediately after doing so the collective persona of Eve GD proceeds to throw ***** at him like little ******* monkeys.

There was a thread a couple of days ago about, "Why did you pick Eve?" I picked it because during my trial I found it more sophisticated and mature than WoW (pre-dumbass pandas). Now I look at the forums and see that it has no greater maturity. It's the same douchebaggery but coming from people averaging twice the age of the typical WoW player.

So the next time you post in a bitching thread about this thing or that thing, demanding that CCP respond, remember this day. If you all act this way when they do respond, next time they may not come back to tell you **** because you can't be ******* adult about it."You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon

The part that amazes me about this whole thing is that CCP Goliath came here to address your concerns, tried to explain things, and did so taking time out of his work day (which incidentally is spent fixing the **** that everyone is bitching about).

And immediately after doing so the collective persona of Eve GD proceeds to throw ***** at him like little ******* monkeys.

There was a thread a couple of days ago about, "Why did you pick Eve?" I picked it because during my trial I found it more sophisticated and mature than WoW (pre-dumbass pandas). Now I look at the forums and see that it has no greater maturity. It's the same douchebaggery but coming from people averaging twice the age of the typical WoW player.

So the next time you post in a bitching thread about this thing or that thing, demanding that CCP respond, remember this day. If you all act this way when they do respond, next time they may not come back to tell you **** because you can't be ******* adult about it.

Just as predicted. No blaming CCP Goliath... he can't possibly know.EVE ONLINE: The universe is ours!- Join the Epic Boo Bees! (RP,PvE/PvP,wardecs,new players!)You're at it from day 0!

The part that amazes me about this whole thing is that CCP Goliath came here to address your concerns, tried to explain things, and did so taking time out of his work day (which incidentally is spent fixing the **** that everyone is bitching about).

And immediately after doing so the collective persona of Eve GD proceeds to throw ***** at him like little ******* monkeys.

There was a thread a couple of days ago about, "Why did you pick Eve?" I picked it because during my trial I found it more sophisticated and mature than WoW (pre-dumbass pandas). Now I look at the forums and see that it has no greater maturity. It's the same douchebaggery but coming from people averaging twice the age of the typical WoW player.

So the next time you post in a bitching thread about this thing or that thing, demanding that CCP respond, remember this day. If you all act this way when they do respond, next time they may not come back to tell you **** because you can't be ******* adult about it.

it seems you just lack history regarding this.

we are not complaining about one specific issue, but about a chronic lack of QA in CCP's release.

i play since early 2010, and yet, not a SINGLE expansion have been released without breaking something major.

if you add this, to the fact that during testings, player DO give feedback, and even make constructive proposals, only to get simply ignored by CCP, like unified inventory, odyssey exploration, the jump animation(wich is STILL making some ppl sick), the missiles thingy, the various rebalances done after the cruisers which litteraly made some ship useless (half matar is now missiles? wtf?), more recently, the ESS (and the list goes on......).

there is a moment when, if the only interaction you have with the player base, is to smear your crap in their face, they'll start doing the same.

it's called mutual respect, not talking about a dev specificaly, but CCP in general, seems to ignore this.

an angry player base will go vocal, and the longer you ignore it, the more vocal it'll go, and the less it will be open to compromises.

CCP learned that during incarna, or should have......

i'm starting to ask myself if they aren't secretly wishing for it to happen again, at least they act like it.....

Bad **** happens. ******* get over it. If you are honestly that fed up then biomass, unsub, and NEVER look back.

Been playing since 2008. Never been upset about anything new or broken or different. But by all means, you go on raging impotently and bang your fist on the desk harder because that has ALWAYS been the manner in which one is constructive and engaged.

And missiles are ******* awesome!"You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon

This really doesn't help understanding how such a bug can see the light on TQ. Your post just makes if look worse...

That wasn't what I was trying to address, so that isn't surprising. I have addressed that in other posts so won't do so again.

Don't let the butthurt nerdragers drag on you over this. It was great entertainment watching them freak out when they could not make their usual hyper-use of the op local tool and were docked up and squealing.

That's great. Let's invoke Incarna every time something bad happens. Hell people are still invoking boot.ini when they're crying about ****.

Bad **** happens. ******* get over it. If you are honestly that fed up then biomass, unsub, and NEVER look back.

Been playing since 2008. Never been upset about anything new or broken or different. But by all means, you go on raging impotently and bang your fist on the desk harder because that has ALWAYS been the manner in which one is constructive and engaged.

And missiles are ******* awesome!

yeah, cause when player gives constructive feedback, it goes ho so well......

Get your asses in gear and fix all the things you screwed up. While your at it, get all the little retards who were involved in this update, throw them in the meeting room and over megaphone tell them why they suck at there job.

"Coding is hard..." excuses " Fix it or we will remove the body guards that save you from the village rabble. That should help them work both day and night.

Out of the epic patch fails, sure this doesn't rank in the top three, but its sure a contender for Bork up of the year, 2014.

The d-scan window no longer shows the precision tracking camera button. I haven't found it yet, and it probably doesn't exist. The normal tracking camera also does not work for this, because it does not aim towards the center.

Fix it.

Fix it now.

[EDIT: Always count on CCP to take simple functions and make you go through a radial menu to access them again!"

"You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon

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