Post subject: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Heaven?

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:35 pm

Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pmPosts: 6044
Religion: Christian

Quote:

ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

No?

One cannot be a Catholic in good standing if one denies the Immaculate Conception. Such a one cannot receive communion. Father quoted above the words following Pius IX's declaration of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. That's a strong level of condemnation given to someone who denies the Immaculate Conception.

How does that fit with this: Steve Ray: "At seventeen, right before my 12th grade began at highschool, I heard Billy Graham on the television. I alwayshad a soft spot in my heart for God which was nevercalloused over by rebellion. The compelling argumentssank in deep. Then the mellow baritone voice of GeorgeBeverly Shea singing “Just as I am without one plea, butthat thy blood was shed for me.” That did it. I was out the door with tears running down my eyes.I walked down our long country driveway and I said to the Lord, “I am only seventeen years oldbut tonight I give my whole life to you!”

In another place Steve Ray said that he is certain that he will be reunited with his parents in Heaven (I dont have time to search the source right now). Neither of which were Catholic... and didn't have a positive view of the Catholic faith.

I completely agree with Steve Ray in his assesment of Billy Graham as well as his certainty of reuniting with his parents. I just dont understand the following: He seems to be completely comfortable holding two contradicting ideas.

_________________But our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:20

beng,I appreciate your response but it doesn't really answer the question. Steve Ray speaks with certainty concerning two contradictory ideas from what I understand of the strictly Catholic point of view.

Your response indicates that there is no certainty and in fact is a rarity. "This rarely happens."

And Steve Ray further declares of his past, with certainty: “Just as I am without one plea, butthat thy blood was shed for me.” That did it. I walked down our long country driveway and I said to the Lord, “I am only seventeen years oldbut tonight I give my whole life to you!” ... "It was a — if not THE, defining moment in my life."

Additionally he declares: "Billy Graham, now old and weak, giving a talk to the scientists in Silicon Valley. He may be fragile with age but his words are powerful, precise and ever so pertinent to our society today."

beng,I appreciate your response but it doesn't really answer the question. Steve Ray speaks with certainty concerning two contradictory ideas from what I understand of the strictly Catholic point of view.

Your response indicates that there is no certainty and in fact is a rarity. "This rarely happens."

And Steve Ray further declares of his past, with certainty: “Just as I am without one plea, butthat thy blood was shed for me.” That did it. I walked down our long country driveway and I said to the Lord, “I am only seventeen years oldbut tonight I give my whole life to you!” ... "It was a — if not THE, defining moment in my life."

Additionally he declares: "Billy Graham, now old and weak, giving a talk to the scientists in Silicon Valley. He may be fragile with age but his words are powerful, precise and ever so pertinent to our society today."

I can speak with certainty like Steve Ray. To us this is a "moral certainty" not an "absolute certainty" like what OSAS have it.

This is more consistent with that the bible teaches. The bible is full of language that displays certainty. OSAS folks (like W4F in apologetic room) appeal to this. But they have no answer when confronted with other passages telling to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, how we must endure to the end etc.

The key to reconsiling certainty verses and not -so-certain verses is that we have only a moral certainty, not an absolute one.

Generally, present apologetics attempts to unintentionally water down this type of topic.

Their answer would lie in knowledge. “Ignorance” has been the term thrown about frequently to protect an individual from culpability. So here, I am guessing that they would say something like:

“If a Catholic knows the Church is true and denies her teachings, then they can’t be a good Catholic and they can’t receive Holy Communion. However, since protestants (Steve’s parents) did not know the Catholic Church was true, then they would not be held accountable to denying the Immaculate Conception.”

Ignorance, and not even invincible ignorance, becomes a pillar of safety.

Other explanations can include a looser concept of how people are saved. Beng notes that one must be joined to the Church to be saved and he says it’s rare. Others will view this occurrence as more frequent. Still others will view as extremely frequent and common to the point of near universalism.

As for Steve, I don’t what he believes. But, I assume he thinks his teenage self was in a state of “ignorance” and the start of a journey. The state of ignorance “protects” him from the consequences of formally denying doctrine, while at the same time he may believe that his teenage experience was from God because the ultimate plan was to lead him to Catholicism later in life. If God can use horrible events to convert people, then he can certainly use a faulty foundation from protestantism to pull people into Catholicism – it is not an ideal situation, but it’s more of making good from a defect.

There’s several other things going on as well. Catholics heap praise on non-Catholics because perceptions of salvation are looser, ignorance becomes a safety, recent ecumenical endeavors, even from Popes, make it seem like some non-Catholics are very safe in their denominations, and non-Catholic preachers are praised because they preach Christ to people who would never generally hear it.

“Oh, Billy Graham does a good job because he preaches to people who would never hear about Jesus in the first place. It’s better than nothing. If people come to Christ, that’s a good thing. God will not hold them culpable for their ignorance in Catholic things.” – Something like that.

The above explanation is something I may not 100% agree, but it might be what’s going on here.

_________________-Alexander"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio

_________________"Things tend, in fact, to go wrong; part of the blame lies on the teachers of philosophy, who today teach us how to argue instead of how to live, part on their students, who come to the teachers in the first place with a view to developing not their character but their intellect. The result has been the transformation of philosophy, the study of wisdom, into philology, the study of words." - Lucius Seneca, Letters from a Stoic.

_________________"Things tend, in fact, to go wrong; part of the blame lies on the teachers of philosophy, who today teach us how to argue instead of how to live, part on their students, who come to the teachers in the first place with a view to developing not their character but their intellect. The result has been the transformation of philosophy, the study of wisdom, into philology, the study of words." - Lucius Seneca, Letters from a Stoic.

Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:03 pm

Master

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:33 amPosts: 3778
Religion: Catholic

According to PED (where is he BTW?), ignorance is itself also a sin. So in general I have a hard time thinking that the sin of ignorance could lead one to salvation.

Now, if by “ignorance” one means something like a 5 year old who dies in the jungle of Kenya, having been raised from birth knowing only a pagan religion, then that’s one thing. But can an adult living in western society having the same kind of “ignorance”? I don’t think so....

_________________"So mercifully blessed to be free from the ravages of intelligence." - Taken from Time Bandits

According to PED (where is he BTW?), ignorance is itself also a sin. So in general I have a hard time thinking that the sin of ignorance could lead one to salvation.

Now, if by “ignorance” one means something like a 5 year old who dies in the jungle of Kenya, having been raised from birth knowing only a pagan religion, then that’s one thing. But can an adult living in western society having the same kind of “ignorance”? I don’t think so....

People will often use the word "invincible ignorance," which by definition is "ignorance that cannot be overcome." So yeah, in general, it would seem that people in Western society would have the ability to overcome their ignorance. Otherwise, the hypothetical jungle person you speak of could be invincibility ignorant.

But invincible ignorance alone is not enough. But it sure does feel like people use it like that sometimes.

Then there is a discussion of how much faith is necessary, and if God gives this faith to a person in the moments before their death.

This is why things like this are speculative. Speculation, in the wrong hands, sometimes lead to a super loose opinion on who is saved, how many may be saved, and of course a decrease in the true spirit of evangelism.

_________________-Alexander"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio

Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:19 pm

Master

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:33 amPosts: 3778
Religion: Catholic

Alexandros wrote:

This is why things like this are speculative. Speculation, in the wrong hands, sometimes lead to a super loose opinion on who is saved, how many may be saved, and of course a decrease in the true spirit of evangelism.

Well-said.

_________________"So mercifully blessed to be free from the ravages of intelligence." - Taken from Time Bandits

Of course he's not sure. Not REALLY sure. Just morally sure. He could be wrong.

_________________"Things tend, in fact, to go wrong; part of the blame lies on the teachers of philosophy, who today teach us how to argue instead of how to live, part on their students, who come to the teachers in the first place with a view to developing not their character but their intellect. The result has been the transformation of philosophy, the study of wisdom, into philology, the study of words." - Lucius Seneca, Letters from a Stoic.

Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:23 pm

Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pmPosts: 6044
Religion: Christian

Alexandros wrote:

Peetem wrote:

According to PED (where is he BTW?), ignorance is itself also a sin. So in general I have a hard time thinking that the sin of ignorance could lead one to salvation.

Now, if by “ignorance” one means something like a 5 year old who dies in the jungle of Kenya, having been raised from birth knowing only a pagan religion, then that’s one thing. But can an adult living in western society having the same kind of “ignorance”? I don’t think so....

People will often use the word "invincible ignorance," which by definition is "ignorance that cannot be overcome." So yeah, in general, it would seem that people in Western society would have the ability to overcome their ignorance. Otherwise, the hypothetical jungle person you speak of could be invincibility ignorant.

But invincible ignorance alone is not enough. But it sure does feel like people use it like that sometimes.

Then there is a discussion of how much faith is necessary, and if God gives this faith to a person in the moments before their death.

This is why things like this are speculative. Speculation, in the wrong hands, sometimes lead to a super loose opinion on who is saved, how many may be saved, and of course a decrease in the true spirit of evangelism.

I don't know about all of that. I guess I was just pleasantly surprised when I read Steve Ray's blog describing his deep connection to God as a result of Billy Graham's ministry. The fact that he describes his personal experience with God when he was 17 yrs old to be ... one of, if not THE defining moment in his life... is food for thought. IMHO

_________________But our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:20