TomT wrote:Perhaps, but I also don't think anyone considered Los Angeles to be an "extreme climate..." Nor was Nissan honest or forthright about the real affects of heat on the pack, or on pack degradation in general... I expected pack degradation but I never expected 20% in my environs in less than two years... Based on what we were told by Nissan, I was expecting 20 percent at the end of four years...

Clearly, a lack of TMS has turned out to be a gigantic engineering mistake.

Not sure I agree with you. While I live in West Los Angeles, my Leaf is parked in the sun in Canoga Park for 40 hours a week. I haven't lost any capacity bars, and my 100% charge today was 254 Gids (90.4% of capacity retained) after 22 months and 17,000 miles. There isn't a huge difference in the predicted rate of capacity loss between Van Nuys and Santa Monica based on the Battery Aging Model. What is puzzling to me is why some people such as yourself have lost 2 capacity bars, while others in fairly similar environments haven't lost any. Your car may be an outlier in terms of the rate of capacity loss for your area. It would be good to know the rate of capacity loss in the greater Los Angeles area. Perhaps there are other factors not accounted for (QC, leaving Leaf at 100% for longer period of time, manufacturing problem, phase of the moon, etc.).

what about driving styles? Tom makes it no secret that he just "drives it, like he stole it". Do you? aggressive driving might be generating just enough heat to kick the degradation up that one iota?

you are a pretty mellow driver (based on my warped memories anyway... I maybe wrong) and maybe the degradation is the difference between driving 60 mph and 70?

hyperlexis wrote:... However it concerns me why if an owner wants to make a warranty claim on battery problems, they didn't roll out the red carpet for you and replace any bad cells ASAP. A refund is great, but it's such an extreme solution. Makes me wonder why? I'm sure the batteries must cost less than a whole new car, but still the thought crossed my mind -- like a PC with a sealed-in battery (MacBook, Surface....), is it cheaper to throw the whole thing out rather than repair?????? ...

Because they don't consider his battery "broken" and repairable within warranty. They don't want to set a precedent of doing warranty repairs on cars like his. The buyback can be more easily written off as one-time goodwill gesture.

DaveinOlyWA wrote:what about driving styles? Tom makes it no secret that he just "drives it, like he stole it". Do you? aggressive driving might be generating just enough heat to kick the degradation up that one iota?

you are a pretty mellow driver (based on my warped memories anyway... I maybe wrong) and maybe the degradation is the difference between driving 60 mph and 70?

That's definitely a difference between Tom and myself, if so. As I started to notice degradation I changed my driving style to help mitigate it and stay within the same range of end-point SOC. The idea being that I wanted to avoid discharging any deeper into the pack than I had historically.

First I went from using D all the time to using ECO. Then I went from using ECO with cruise to using ECO without cruise.

Of course, there really isn't anyplace else to go from here, but I do feel like I've helped myself somewhat.

I drive pretty mildly. My typical freeway speed is 62 or 63 (indicated) and I don't brake or accelerate heavily...

DaveinOlyWA wrote:What about driving styles? You are a pretty mellow driver (based on my warped memories anyway... I maybe wrong) and maybe the degradation is the difference between driving 60 mph and 70?

DaveinOlyWA wrote:What about driving styles? You are a pretty mellow driver (based on my warped memories anyway... I maybe wrong) and maybe the degradation is the difference between driving 60 mph and 70?

oh ok, my bad. I thought you were in the "70 mph" crowd.

That's definitely a difference between Tom and myself, if so. As I started to notice degradation I changed my driving style to help mitigate it and stay within the same range of end-point SOC. The idea being that I wanted to avoid discharging any deeper into the pack than I had historically.

First I went from using D all the time to using ECO. Then I went from using ECO with cruise to using ECO without cruise.

Of course, there really isn't anyplace else to go from here, but I do feel like I've helped myself somewhat.

did you see Tom's post about a new discovery concerning charge memory and LiPO?

Nissan has just developed a hot area battery and is just finishing the testing now. It should be released in 2014 but just for extreme hot areas. Maybe with enough driver in warm areas stating it's needed they could produce more or even make it standard in the future.

Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.

The new Nissan battery Chemistry maybe the answer. The LEAF heat pump cabin cooling is twice as efficient as the Focus Air Cond ! Range drops 30 miles when I flip AC on in the Focus after a full charge.

jstack6 wrote:Nissan has just developed a hot area battery and is just finishing the testing now. It should be released in 2014 but just for extreme hot areas. Maybe with enough driver in warm areas stating it's needed they could produce more or even make it standard in the future.

Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.

The new Nissan battery Chemistry maybe the answer. The LEAF heat pump cabin cooling is twice as efficient as the Focus Air Cond ! Range drops 30 miles when I flip AC on in the Focus after a full charge.

Are they going to issue a recall or TSB to retrofit existing Leaf's in hot weather areas? There are far too many of them out there to ignore.

jstack6 wrote:Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.

I have a Volt and it spends a fair amount of time cooling the battery, but it doesn't use anywhere near twice as much energy as my LEAF. Maybe 10-15% more. Considering the LEAF battery temp hovers in the 90s and the Volt is trying to keep its battery temp somewhere in the 70s, that's not too bad.

(Obviously, the hotter the climate, the more energy the car would use to keep the battery cool.)

jstack6 wrote:Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.

I have a Volt and it spends a fair amount of time cooling the battery, but it doesn't use anywhere near twice as much energy as my LEAF. Maybe 10-15% more. Considering the LEAF battery temp hovers in the 90s and the Volt is trying to keep its battery temp somewhere in the 70s, that's not too bad.

(Obviously, the hotter the climate, the more energy the car would use to keep the battery cool.)

You also have to consider the high maintenance and repair costs battery cooling will require you to pay in the future.

Xpost from:

Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

...

BBrockman

...Currently, we have almost completed testing of a new battery chemistry intended to substantially slow capacity loss in extreme heat. During constant testing at battery temperatures of 45 C/113 F, the new battery chemistry is performing similar to the manner that the current battery performs in temperate areas like San Francisco or Seattle...

If true, then isn't every BEV/PHEV with an ATM battery cooling system now functionally obsolete?

What do the "I will never buy a BEV without ATM", and "The LEAF would be a great car, if it only had ATM" party members have to say in response?

jstack6 wrote:Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.

I have a Volt and it spends a fair amount of time cooling the battery, but it doesn't use anywhere near twice as much energy as my LEAF. Maybe 10-15% more. Considering the LEAF battery temp hovers in the 90s and the Volt is trying to keep its battery temp somewhere in the 70s, that's not too bad.

(Obviously, the hotter the climate, the more energy the car would use to keep the battery cool.)

You also have to consider the high maintenance and repair costs battery cooling will require you to pay in the future.

Xpost from:

Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

[quote] ...

Why would having a battery cooling system result in high maintenance costs? -- it's no more than a larger radiator system filled with coolant and an electric water pump and thermostats. It's not freon based, correct? And even if it were, so what? Right now the Leaf has just such a system, except it only sends coolant to the charger to cool it down, back in the trunk. It would be far, far cheaper to have to flush the long-life coolant once in 10 years than to need to replace a cooked battery pack in three.