2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The verse does not say whether Scipture is sufficient by itself to make the man of God perfect and thoroughly furnished, or whether Scripture's role is supplementary.

Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

He doesn't say that about other literature, poets, church tradition, liturgy, dreams, visions, prophecies, feelings, etc...

He doesn't comment on those in this passage because that wouldn't be on topic. You are assuming that Paul is concerned in this passage with Scripture vs. Tradition, which he is not. Paul is not engaged in the argument you are. The passage IMHO is simply an exhortation to continually read the Scriptures for spiritual nourishment, which is part of the Orthodox Tradition. (If the passage is argumentative at all, more likely his concern here is to counter those in the early church who disparaged the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), like the later Marcionites.)[/quote]

Quote

Only every scripture is profitable because God inspired it that way = unique in all the earth = sola scripture is inspired by God so that all of it is profitable....

The passage does not say, 'only scripture...'. You said that.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 10:28:10 AM by JLatimer »

Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

It must be explicit IF I want to consider the teaching &quot;a must for every Christian.&quot;

Those teachings I must deduce from scripture, can't be considered &quot;rule of the faith,&quot; as they aren't expressly taught.

They are deduced.

I can believe in quantum mechanics etc., which isn't in scripture, but can't make those &quot;a rule of the Christian faith&quot; because they aren't expressly taught in scripture.

Is this distinction you make between &quot;expressly taught&quot; and &quot;deduced&quot; expressly taught in Scripture, or deduced therefrom?

Thanks for pointing that out. According to his own logic, then, Alfred would have to recognize that sola scriptura cannot be considered a &quot;rule of faith&quot; since he must deduce it from Scripture, as it is not expressly taught in Scripture.

I never said the word &quot;alone&quot; is in the verse [2 Timothy 3:15-17], I said it is deducible...

Now you got it, but are wrong about sola scriptura.

Paul did say God wrote scripture so that all&nbsp; of it is profitable for doctrine and it completely equips...

He doesn't say that about other literature, poets, church tradition, liturgy, dreams, visions, prophecies, feelings, etc...

Actually, yes he does.

And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.&nbsp; ~ Ephesians 4:11-16 (RSV)

You happen to notice something that's glaringly absent from this list? Scripture! Nowhere in the above passage is Scripture listed as a means for equipping the saints. Does this mean that the Scriptures are useless in equipping the saints. Of course not! So why would Paul's non-inclusion of everything but Scripture in 2 Timothy 3:15-17 imply that Scripture alone is necessary for the equipping of the saints?

Only every scripture is profitable because God inspired it that way = unique in all the earth = sola scripture is inspired by God so that all of it is profitable....

That means sola scriptura is a rule of the faith.

The Church is unique among all human organizations that have ever existed on the earth in that it alone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, yet you don't think of the Church as a rule of the faith. Why is that?

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

You have yet to hear my OC.net chat audio brilliance

What about mine?

P.S. I just learned what "cans" referred to yesterday, so I am well on my way.

Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 01:28:13 PM by Alfred Persson »

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

As you usual you are completely sidestepping the questions asked you, and "moving on" to ask us to "prove" a new straw man argument we didn't make.

Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text:

Where is anyone asserting that "liturgy" IS in 2 Timothy 3:16-17? If no one has made that assertion, then we bear no responsibility to prove that assertion to you.

You, however, must prove that the absence of "liturgy" in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 means that liturgy is NOT profitable for equipping the saints, since you ARE asserting this. Considering that he also doesn't mention here apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers--ministries the same St. Paul lists in Ephesians 4:11 as gifted for the equipping of the saints--your burden of proof becomes even bigger. Why does non-inclusion automatically equal deliberate exclusion?

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

It seems this is the only, or at least the main, passage you're hung up on in defending sola scriputra. Obviously if your belief lacks a Scriptural claim or Scriptural backing, then it is a self-refuting belief and should be cast aside. So let's look at 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and see if it works as a defense for sola scriptura.

We must remember that "profitable" doesn't mean "solely." That is, in the Greek the word might mean something is important and even needed, but it doesn't indicate that it and it alone is needed. We might need oxygen to breath, but oxygen alone isn't what keeps us alive. Likewise, we might need Scripture in order to test doctrines and have revelation, but Scripture alone isn't what builds up our spirit.

The passages states that the "man of God" is made perfect by the use of Scripture, but it doesn't say that Scripture alone makes a "man of God." So we can't inverse the meaning of the passage without exposing our own theological biases. We are then left interpreting the passage to mean that a man of God must rely on Scripture in order to obtain perfect, but nothing within that statement indicates that Scripture alone is what makes a person a "man of God."

Now, certainly you'll disagree with what I have said above. You'll wish to offer a counter-interpretaiton and should I choose to continue the debate, we'll end up proof-texting each other until one of us wears out, one of us is banned, or the topic closes. And therein lies one of the practical problems of sola scriptura (moving away from 2 Timothy now, which if it doesn't support your case you're left with a belief that Scripture alone grants authority without any Scripture to back up that belief); while the belief arose out of the abuses of the Catholic Church and the Popes, sola scriputra doesn't avoid those abuses, but only exacerbates them by making every man a pope. Whereas the Councils could work through their theological disagreements/misunderstandings because of an established authority structure and because they were knowledgable in the faith, under the idea of sola scriptura anyone can have a personal interpretation of Scripture. Practically speaking, how does this aid the collective body in moving towards the Truth?

I think there wouldn't be an issue with sola scriptura if Protestants simply changed the idea to one where nothing could contradict Scripture. After all, I doubt many or any Orthodox or even Roman Catholics would object to such a belief (as, from what I've seen, it's what they believe). Such a belief would allow for tradition, liturgy, and so on because such traditions do not contradict Scripture. This would also allows us to accept things not found in Scripture, but that coincide with Scriptural teachings.

Sadly, however, much of sola scriptura has turned into the belief that if anything is to be taught, it must be found in Scripture. This, of course, limits what one can believe and what language one can use; we've seen how heretical groups have completely turned sola scriptura around on Protestants to claim that since the word "Trinity" isn't found in Scripture, it can be rejected. Now, you would hopefully think such a way of thinking is crazy, but who is to say they're wrong if we buy into sola scriptura? After all, the word "Trinity" doesn't appear in Scripture, so aren't they just following Scripture more closely than you or I? Hence the problems of this belief.

Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

It seems this is the only, or at least the main, passage you're hung up on in defending sola scriputra. snip!

That's absurd, the OP is the main text, how did you miss it?

I'll check out the rest of your argument later...hilarious..

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

The text is quite explicit, God inspired scripture so that every verse of it is profitable for doctrine in order that the man of God be complete:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

The ASV is considered very literal:

16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. 17 That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 ASV)

Every scripture; All scripture > Every verse in Scripture

"Inspired of God is also profitable for teaching" >every scripture God inspired is profitable for teaching

That the man of God may be complete > furnished completely unto every good work.

Verse 17 is literally "in order that", which makes this the conclusion of the premises in verse 16.

God inspired scripture to be profitable for doctrine IN ORDER THAT the man of God be complete.

Alfred, if I were to say, "All exercise ... is profitable ... that the man of God may enjoy complete health", would you argue that "Only exercise is necessary for my health. All of those other rules about eating properly, quitting smoking, getting plenty of rest are just man-made rules that mean nothing"?

If you read St Paul's other letter to Timothy, you will find (chapter 4):"8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come." (NKJV)

Ecclesiastes 7:11 "Wisdom is good with an inheritance, And profitable to those who see the sun." (NKJV)

Scripture is not the only thing that is profitable for the man of God.

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

Alfred, answer my question. Do you believe that worshipping God is profitable for salvation or not? And again, I ask, do you even know what a liturgy is?

Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

It seems this is the only, or at least the main, passage you're hung up on in defending sola scriputra. snip!

That's absurd, the OP is the main text, how did you miss it?

I'll check out the rest of your argument later...hilarious..

I did read the other passages and all of them are based on presuppositions. Only 2 Timothy 3:16 seemed to actually touch on the issue without requiring us to assume any theological grid.

Regardless, the rest of my "hilarious" post should deal with the theological underpinnings you'r bringing to the belief.

But let me ask you an unrelated question, and please feel free to answer honestly: Are you here to win or to learn?

Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

You are correct, I have not yet heard this. I must remedy this as soon as possible.

Be ready to log on at 2 A.M. on a Wednesday night.

Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

You are correct, I have not yet heard this. I must remedy this as soon as possible.

Be ready to log on at 2 A.M. on a Wednesday night.

EDT?

Yup. I was joshing a bit about the day -- the other guys who are on all the time can tell you, but it seems to happen on mainly weekdays, when we're all supposed to be sleeping.

If you come on I will cede my mic to you!

Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

Alfred, answer my question. Do you believe that worshipping God is profitable for salvation or not? And again, I ask, do you even know what a liturgy is?

Alfred,

Moving forward with the directive I posted HERE, I'm not going to let you evade this question by asking that we prove another one of those straw man arguments you like to put into our mouths. You therefore have 24 hours to answer these questions from Cavaradossi. If you fail to do so, you will be placed on Post Moderation until you submit an answer. The clock expires at 12:30 p.m. (Pacific Daylight Time) tomorrow.

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

Alfred, answer my question. Do you believe that worshipping God is profitable for salvation or not? And again, I ask, do you even know what a liturgy is?

Alfred,

Moving forward with the directive I posted HERE, I'm not going to let you evade this question by asking that we prove another one of those straw man arguments you like to put into our mouths. You therefore have 24 hours to answer these questions from Cavaradossi. If you fail to do so, you will be placed on Post Moderation until you submit an answer. The clock expires at 12:30 p.m. (Pacific Daylight Time) tomorrow.

- PeterTheAleutSection Moderator

Being you insist I address his precise argument, I insist you excerpt it entire here, I will not slog through smear to find the tiny point he may have made.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 07:12:16 PM by Alfred Persson »

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Alfred seems to be completely unaware that Orthodox liturgical services are stuffed full of scripture!

And that the Scriptures, particular the Gospel and the Apocalypse of St. John, are stuffed full of liturgical imagery and references!

Exactly! So Alfred's statement of This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church is shown to be the utter nonsense it is.

I like how he dodged the fact that his assertion that a rule of faith must be explicit in Scripture backfires on his desire to make sola scriptura a rule of faith.

Also I'm still waiting for an answer on the lost epistles of Paul, etc.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 07:16:35 PM by Volnutt »

Logged

It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

Alfred seems to be completely unaware that Orthodox liturgical services are stuffed full of scripture!

And that the Scriptures, particular the Gospel and the Apocalypse of St. John, are stuffed full of liturgical imagery and references!

Sad that I can't predict future events using the Apocalypse.

You didn't grow up premill, did you?

Logged

It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

Alfred, answer my question. Do you believe that worshipping God is profitable for salvation or not? And again, I ask, do you even know what a liturgy is?

Alfred,

Moving forward with the directive I posted HERE, I'm not going to let you evade this question by asking that we prove another one of those straw man arguments you like to put into our mouths. You therefore have 24 hours to answer these questions from Cavaradossi. If you fail to do so, you will be placed on Post Moderation until you submit an answer. The clock expires at 12:30 p.m. (Pacific Daylight Time) tomorrow.

- PeterTheAleutSection Moderator

Being you insist I address his precise argument, I insist you excerpt it entire here, I will not slog through smear to find the tiny point he may have made.

I am not going to submit to any conditions you may place upon me, and if you continue to insist that I meet your demands, you will be placed immediately on Post Moderation. My ultimatum in Reply #161 quotes exactly the questions you are to answer. Now answer the questions.

Alfred seems to be completely unaware that Orthodox liturgical services are stuffed full of scripture!

And that the Scriptures, particular the Gospel and the Apocalypse of St. John, are stuffed full of liturgical imagery and references!

What references? I don't mean that in a combative way either, I'm actually curious about it because I was never taught this. It also makes sense to me in light of Paul putting liturgy into his writings.

You can PM it to me if you want (or anyone can) if you feel it would detract from the thread. I'm sure the references were somewhere in this thread...but I must have glanced over them.

Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

Alfred seems to be completely unaware that Orthodox liturgical services are stuffed full of scripture!

And that the Scriptures, particular the Gospel and the Apocalypse of St. John, are stuffed full of liturgical imagery and references!

Exactly! So Alfred's statement of This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church is shown to be the utter nonsense it is.

Especially when you consider that many traditional Protestants insist that sola scriptura means each and every sermon needs to be an expository Scripture sandwich- between the liturgy and the homily practically all either Orthodox or Protestants do during a service is recite, explain, or allude to Scripture!

Logged

It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

Alfred, answer my question. Do you believe that worshipping God is profitable for salvation or not? And again, I ask, do you even know what a liturgy is?

Alfred,

Moving forward with the directive I posted HERE, I'm not going to let you evade this question by asking that we prove another one of those straw man arguments you like to put into our mouths. You therefore have 24 hours to answer these questions from Cavaradossi. If you fail to do so, you will be placed on Post Moderation until you submit an answer. The clock expires at 12:30 p.m. (Pacific Daylight Time) tomorrow.

- PeterTheAleutSection Moderator

Being you insist I address his precise argument, I insist you excerpt it entire here, I will not slog through smear to find the tiny point he may have made.

I am not going to submit to any conditions you may place upon me, and if you continue to insist that I meet your demands, you will be placed immediately on Post Moderation. My ultimatum in Reply #161 quotes exactly the questions you are to answer. Now answer the questions.

Unfair!

You cannot insist I answer a precise argument, and then refuse to tell me what it is.

I already know what you will allege after I slog through all that material, and miss something. you will accuse me of purposely missing it.

You made the demand, its up to you to produce the PRECISE argument you want me to answer, or your demand is merely a device to ban me.

I endured your repeated spam hissing I never answered your argument, after I repeatedly did.

You smeared me without cause and when I objected you put me under warning.

I don't believe you are a fair moderator at all.

You have an agenda against me.

So either you produce the precise argument, or dispense with the facade and ban me.

Okay, you asked for it. For continuing to argue with my moderatorial directives and for using this public board to complain about forum moderation despite repeated instructions that you are to do so only via private message, you are now on indefinite Post Moderation. I have also forwarded to the global moderators a request that you be muted, since this is not the first time you have been so disciplined for such rude contempt. I have no personal agenda against you, Alfred, but I have instructions to not allow you to dominate this forum as you have. If you believe this action wrong, please feel free to appeal it via private message to Veniamin.

- PeterTheAleut

Per the request of the moderator of this section, you are being muted indefinitely for your contempt for his moderatorial direction, and for arguing about your moderation publicly. You should communicate with Fr. Chris directly via PM to discuss the terms under which your Muting will be lifted.

- Fr. George, Global Moderator

« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 08:21:47 PM by PeterTheAleut »

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Alfred seems to be completely unaware that Orthodox liturgical services are stuffed full of scripture!

And that the Scriptures, particular the Gospel and the Apocalypse of St. John, are stuffed full of liturgical imagery and references!

What references? I don't mean that in a combative way either, I'm actually curious about it because I was never taught this. It also makes sense to me in light of Paul putting liturgy into his writings.

You can PM it to me if you want (or anyone can) if you feel it would detract from the thread. I'm sure the references were somewhere in this thread...but I must have glanced over them.

Thank you for asking, since this really hasn't been covered in this thread. I think it pertinent, however, to the discussion since Alfred has made the absence of "liturgy" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17 an argument against the spiritual profitability of liturgy. I'll therefore attempt to point out a few of these references in Revelation (a.k.a., the Apocalypse of St. John).

The seven golden lampstands of Rev. 1:12-13

The martyrs under the altar in Rev. 6:9-11

The vision of the heavenly temple and heavenly worship in Rev. 4:1-11; 11:15-19; 15:5-8

In the Gospel of John, we also have these references:

the Eucharist ("Eat My flesh and drink My blood.") - John 6:43-59

Baptism and Chrismation ("Unless one is born of water and the Spirit") - John 3:1-9

I know this is just a start, but it should be enough for now to open your eyes to the rich liturgical imagery that is in the Scriptures.

This rules out God inspired scripture for the man of God to be complete once he adds to God's Word, the liturgy of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, that is ridiculous. You mean to say then that you do not worship God? Do you even know what a liturgy is?

Is Jesus talking?

You are upping your game. You will be a great radio sidekick soon.

I was thinking the same thing. We three should meet up monthly and do a podcast. We can be Orthodox versions of Howard, Fred and Robin.

Still waiting for one of you to prove Paul included liturgy in this text: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/color] (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Where is the word "liturgy?"

Alfred, answer my question. Do you believe that worshipping God is profitable for salvation or not? And again, I ask, do you even know what a liturgy is?

Alfred,

Moving forward with the directive I posted HERE, I'm not going to let you evade this question by asking that we prove another one of those straw man arguments you like to put into our mouths. You therefore have 24 hours to answer these questions from Cavaradossi. If you fail to do so, you will be placed on Post Moderation until you submit an answer. The clock expires at 12:30 p.m. (Pacific Daylight Time) tomorrow.

- PeterTheAleutSection Moderator

Being you insist I address his precise argument, I insist you excerpt it entire here, I will not slog through smear to find the tiny point he may have made.

I am not going to submit to any conditions you may place upon me, and if you continue to insist that I meet your demands, you will be placed immediately on Post Moderation. My ultimatum in Reply #161 quotes exactly the questions you are to answer. Now answer the questions.

Unfair!

You cannot insist I answer a precise argument, and then refuse to tell me what it is.

I already know what you will allege after I slog through all that material, and miss something. you will accuse me of purposely missing it.

You made the demand, its up to you to produce the PRECISE argument you want me to answer, or your demand is merely a device to ban me.

I endured your repeated spam hissing I never answered your argument, after I repeatedly did.

You smeared me without cause and when I objected you put me under warning.

I don't believe you are a fair moderator at all.

You have an agenda against me.

So either you produce the precise argument, or dispense with the facade and ban me.

Lord have mercy, must you have a meltdown over this? He has clearly asked you to answer the questions which I have put forth: Do you believe that worshipping God is profitable for salvation? Do you know what a liturgy is?

I highly doubt that your histrionics are gaining you any sympathy, either from the regular posters or the moderators.

Edit: Honestly, I have made four posts in this thread prior to this one, the four of which probably total under 100 words. Two of them have conveniently been quoted for you by PeterTheAleut, one was a joke, and one comes from the very beginning of the thread, asking you how one should interpret the Bible without the aid of tradition (a question, I might add, that it seems like you never decided to answer). I think that it should be obvious from context that what he wants you to answer is the post which he has quoted.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 07:51:05 PM by Cavaradossi »

Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Alfred seems to be completely unaware that Orthodox liturgical services are stuffed full of scripture!

And that the Scriptures, particular the Gospel and the Apocalypse of St. John, are stuffed full of liturgical imagery and references!

What references? I don't mean that in a combative way either, I'm actually curious about it because I was never taught this. It also makes sense to me in light of Paul putting liturgy into his writings.

You can PM it to me if you want (or anyone can) if you feel it would detract from the thread. I'm sure the references were somewhere in this thread...but I must have glanced over them.

Thank you for asking, since this really hasn't been covered in this thread. I think it pertinent, however, to the discussion since Alfred has made the absence of "liturgy" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17 an argument against the spiritual profitability of liturgy. I'll therefore attempt to point out a few of these references in Revelation (a.k.a., the Apocalypse of St. John).

The seven golden lampstands of Rev. 1:12-13

The martyrs under the altar in Rev. 6:9-11

The vision of the heavenly temple and heavenly worship in Rev. 4:1-11; 11:15-19; 15:5-8

In the Gospel of John, we also have these references:

the Eucharist ("Eat My flesh and drink My blood.") - John 6:43-59

Baptism and Chrismation ("Unless one is born of water and the Spirit") - John 3:1-9

I know this is just a start, but it should be enough for now to open your eyes to the rich liturgical imagery that is in the Scriptures.

You misstated my argument, I said nothing for or against liturgy per se, I said it wasn't included with the scripture by Paul as profitable for doctrine.

The only thing Paul says is inspired by God to be profitable for doctrine, in that text, is scripture alone.

Scripture ALONE.

The word is implicit, not explicit. I never said the word alone was there, i said its logical it is, because only scripture is so described as being entirely profitable for doctrine.

But that rules out any possibility liturgy is being included by Paul. He speaks of the bible ALONE.

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

The only thing Paul says is inspired by God to be profitable for doctrine, in that text, is scripture alone.

But that rules out any possibility liturgy is being included by Paul. He speaks of the bible ALONE.

Setting aside the fact that Orthodox liturgical services are loaded with scripture (as is the creed), Paul said this in one of his letters, which, at the time he wrote it, was not part of the Bible as you know it today! Or are you suggesting only the Old Testament as it existed in Paul's day, is the legitimate Bible?

Alfred seems to be completely unaware that Orthodox liturgical services are stuffed full of scripture!

And that the Scriptures, particular the Gospel and the Apocalypse of St. John, are stuffed full of liturgical imagery and references!

What references? I don't mean that in a combative way either, I'm actually curious about it because I was never taught this. It also makes sense to me in light of Paul putting liturgy into his writings.

You can PM it to me if you want (or anyone can) if you feel it would detract from the thread. I'm sure the references were somewhere in this thread...but I must have glanced over them.

Thank you for asking, since this really hasn't been covered in this thread. I think it pertinent, however, to the discussion since Alfred has made the absence of "liturgy" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17 an argument against the spiritual profitability of liturgy. I'll therefore attempt to point out a few of these references in Revelation (a.k.a., the Apocalypse of St. John).

The seven golden lampstands of Rev. 1:12-13

The martyrs under the altar in Rev. 6:9-11

The vision of the heavenly temple and heavenly worship in Rev. 4:1-11; 11:15-19; 15:5-8

In the Gospel of John, we also have these references:

the Eucharist ("Eat My flesh and drink My blood.") - John 6:43-59

Baptism and Chrismation ("Unless one is born of water and the Spirit") - John 3:1-9

I know this is just a start, but it should be enough for now to open your eyes to the rich liturgical imagery that is in the Scriptures.

Thank you very much. The liturgy in the Apocalypse of St. John is so blatant to me.

With the Liturgy from the Gospel of John, are you saying that at the time this was liturgical, or that it was adopted into liturgy? (Having been to numerous Orthodox services now, I've heard more Scripture read in one service than I did in 10 years of a "bible-believing, exegetical-preaching church," so that part is nailed down. I was looking for references to Scripture that were liturgy at the time, that the author of the passage was drawing from known liturgy at that point, if that makes any sense).

Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

Alfred seems to be completely unaware that Orthodox liturgical services are stuffed full of scripture!

And that the Scriptures, particular the Gospel and the Apocalypse of St. John, are stuffed full of liturgical imagery and references!

What references? I don't mean that in a combative way either, I'm actually curious about it because I was never taught this. It also makes sense to me in light of Paul putting liturgy into his writings.

You can PM it to me if you want (or anyone can) if you feel it would detract from the thread. I'm sure the references were somewhere in this thread...but I must have glanced over them.

Thank you for asking, since this really hasn't been covered in this thread. I think it pertinent, however, to the discussion since Alfred has made the absence of "liturgy" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17 an argument against the spiritual profitability of liturgy. I'll therefore attempt to point out a few of these references in Revelation (a.k.a., the Apocalypse of St. John).

The seven golden lampstands of Rev. 1:12-13

The martyrs under the altar in Rev. 6:9-11

The vision of the heavenly temple and heavenly worship in Rev. 4:1-11; 11:15-19; 15:5-8

In the Gospel of John, we also have these references:

the Eucharist ("Eat My flesh and drink My blood.") - John 6:43-59

Baptism and Chrismation ("Unless one is born of water and the Spirit") - John 3:1-9

I know this is just a start, but it should be enough for now to open your eyes to the rich liturgical imagery that is in the Scriptures.

Thank you very much. The liturgy in the Apocalypse of St. John is so blatant to me.

With the Liturgy from the Gospel of John, are you saying that at the time this was liturgical, or that it was adopted into liturgy? (Having been to numerous Orthodox services now, I've heard more Scripture read in one service than I did in 10 years of a "bible-believing, exegetical-preaching church," so that part is nailed down. I was looking for references to Scripture that were liturgy at the time, that the author of the passage was drawing from known liturgy at that point, if that makes any sense).

Since John was a Levitical priest as the son of a Levitical priest, it appears safe to say that John had a very good understanding of liturgy. I would say, then, that John probably interpreted Jesus' words in a liturgical context and read back into Jesus' words much of the imagery he had come to know from both Jewish and Christian worship.

Since John wrote his Gospel years, possibly 20 years, after the three Synoptics were completed, I would also think it safe to say that he had overseen a lot more of the liturgical development that took place within the early Church then Matthew, Mark, and Luke had.

Alfred seems to be completely unaware that Orthodox liturgical services are stuffed full of scripture!

And that the Scriptures, particular the Gospel and the Apocalypse of St. John, are stuffed full of liturgical imagery and references!

What references? I don't mean that in a combative way either, I'm actually curious about it because I was never taught this. It also makes sense to me in light of Paul putting liturgy into his writings.

You can PM it to me if you want (or anyone can) if you feel it would detract from the thread. I'm sure the references were somewhere in this thread...but I must have glanced over them.

Thank you for asking, since this really hasn't been covered in this thread. I think it pertinent, however, to the discussion since Alfred has made the absence of "liturgy" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17 an argument against the spiritual profitability of liturgy. I'll therefore attempt to point out a few of these references in Revelation (a.k.a., the Apocalypse of St. John).

The seven golden lampstands of Rev. 1:12-13

The martyrs under the altar in Rev. 6:9-11

The vision of the heavenly temple and heavenly worship in Rev. 4:1-11; 11:15-19; 15:5-8

In the Gospel of John, we also have these references:

the Eucharist ("Eat My flesh and drink My blood.") - John 6:43-59

Baptism and Chrismation ("Unless one is born of water and the Spirit") - John 3:1-9

I know this is just a start, but it should be enough for now to open your eyes to the rich liturgical imagery that is in the Scriptures.

You misstated my argument, I said nothing for or against liturgy per se, I said it wasn't included with the scripture by Paul as profitable for doctrine.

The only thing Paul says is inspired by God to be profitable for doctrine, in that text, is scripture alone.

Scripture ALONE.

The word is implicit, not explicit. I never said the word alone was there, i said its logical it is, because only scripture is so described as being entirely profitable for doctrine.

But that rules out any possibility liturgy is being included by Paul. He speaks of the bible ALONE.

How can you even say Scripture alone is profitable? It's a patently false claim on the face of it. If I get spiritual nourishment from something, if it helps me get closer to God and behave better toward my fellow man, then is it not "profitable" by definition? So many things have nourished me without being straight up expositions of Scripture; podcasts, books by Christian and even secular authors, the lives of the Saints, conversations with friends, even philosophy to the extent I see God in it. And let's not even get in to what I get out of the beauty of nature. I'd say all these things have been quite profitable to me-despite having often only a tangential relationship to the written Word.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 08:12:32 PM by Volnutt »

Logged

It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!