If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Cut out

I am a brand new beek & I did a cut out with my "bee mentor" on Saturday. We cut all comb out, but did not see any eggs or larvae. There was honey and pollen, but no brood. We do know that the cut out had swarmed twice this Spring already, the latest swarm being Thursday April 18. There were two capped queen cells in the cut out comb. I took one and my mentor placed in my hive along with frames of drawn comb filled with honey & more frames of pollen. The bees acted very "tame" even with all the disruption that we caused them. After hiving them we have had cold rainy weather. I saw lots of activity on Sunday, but due to the weather little since. It's supposed to be in the mid 70's tomorrow. What is the chances of all going ok, & what, if anything should I be concerned about? I will appreciate any advice that more experienced beeks can offer.

Re: Cut out

Honestly there is no reason to worry as there is not much you can do. I would keep an eye on them but do not bother them to much. Let em bee and in 3 to 4 days check on them. If the cell is still not open then I would consider giving them a frame of eggs or newly hatched larva and see if they will make you a queen from those. Good Luck!
Jason

"It's better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees!" Zapata

Re: Cut out

Ok, on day 3 after the cutout you can generally tell a broodless hive that is also queenless by their behavior on the landing board. If they are broodless and queenless (and have not already absconded), they will be listless (some bees hanging out around the entrance but not really working). If that is what you are seeing then I second giving them a frame of eggs and a another frame of eggs a week later so they can make themselves a new queen. Michael Bush calls it his "Panacea" recommendation (best advice I've ever gotten). Go to www.bushfarms.com to read about it.

But, on the other hand if you are seeing them getting with it at their entrance, hauling out dead bees and trash from the cutout and starting to forage, than they probably have a new queen and she just hasn't started laying yet and you don't want to be bothering her with inspections. I would give them a couple of weeks and then do a light inspection for eggs and young larve. If you don't see eggs or larve then give them a frame of eggs.

Very important not to inspect queenless hives that are in the process of making a new queen for about a month after you give them eggs, fight the urge to open them up.

Good luck, ask your mentor to come over on day 3 and glance at them from the outside with you, he will be able to tell you if you are seeing normal queenright beehavior.

Re: Cut out

OK, sorry D Semple, but I have to cut in here.....

1: Queenless bees will ALMOST NEVER abscond; without a queen, they will either "drift to a nearby, queenright hive, or stay exactly where they are & just work as if the box they're in is there queen, until they die off slowly. Otherwise, Laying-worker hives wouldn't happen, but they do happen...frequently.

2: Since this hive is from a cutout that "Already swarmed at least 2 times," AND that had remaining, capped, unkilled queen cells in it still, we can be at least 99% sure that it IS queenless; just a matter of giving the newly emerged virgin a couple weeks to mate & start laying now.

End result: if you still have no brood or eggs in about 3 weeks, then something most likely went wrong with the new virgin queen's mating flights, and you need to get with your mentor to see if he can give you either a new queen, or a few frames of eggs & brood

Re: Cut out

I appreciate all the information provided. My mentor & I plan to do a quick hive inspection on Saturday to see if the queen has hatched, if not then he will be giving me some brood to place in the hive. Today there is lots of activity bees coming in and out like crazy, I can hope that this is a good sign. I anxiously await Saturday to see if the queen has hatched. We can only assume that the capped queen cell was at least 9 days old, but it could be older, this is why we are waiting 7 days from last Saturday to see if she has hatched, which would make this coming Saturday day 16. Thanks for all your information and input.

Re: Cut out

Originally Posted by mbwalton

I am a brand new beek & I did a cut out with my "bee mentor" on Saturday. We cut all comb out, but did not see any eggs or larvae. There was honey and pollen, but no brood. We do know that the cut out had swarmed twice this Spring already, the latest swarm being Thursday April 18. There were two capped queen cells in the cut out comb. I will appreciate any advice that more experienced beeks can offer.

Robherc, have you ever seen live capped queen cells, but no other eggs, larve, or brood? I'm thinking they are just a couple of old dead queen cells.

The second swarm they saw from this hive on April 18th was probably a secondary swarm and there was a virgin or newly mated queen running around in the colony when they did the cutout on April 20th. Hopefully she lived and got transfered into the new cutout colony.

Originally Posted by robherc

OK, sorry D Semple, but I have to cut in here.....

2: Since this hive is from a cutout that "Already swarmed at least 2 times," AND that had remaining, capped, unkilled queen cells in it still, we can be at least 99% sure that it IS queenless; just a matter of giving the newly emerged virgin a couple weeks to mate & start laying now.

End result: if you still have no brood or eggs in about 3 weeks, then something most likely went wrong with the new virgin queen's mating flights, and you need to get with your mentor to see if he can give you either a new queen, or a few frames of eggs & brood

My advice only differs from your's in that I wouldn't wait 3 weeks to give them a frame of eggs IF they see any outward signs that they are not queen right. And, a cutout broodless, queenless colony is not going to acting right the week after a cutout, if they are hopelessly queenless and his mentor should be able to tell and they can take action now if needed.

But, if they are hopelessly queenless and they wait 3 weeks, they won't have anything left worth saving, because a good prortion of the workers will drift awaylike you say to other hives, and being in Virginia the small hive beetles will have a field day. (I shouldn't have said abscond, but Marvin is new to beekeeping and I was just short on time for a longer explanation.)

The good news is Marvin saw what sounds like good normal working activity yesterday and hopefully has a young virgin or newly mated queen. And, if Marvin's mentor agrees with his assessment, I think he should now follow your advice of waiting 3 weeks to do an inspection so as not to disturb a young queen.

Hope we haven't confused you too much Marvin.

Sounds like you have a great mentor, ultimetly you should follow his advise with your new hive because he is there and willing to help and that makes all the difference.

Re: Cut out

I normally check my hives making queens as follows:
1 week from egg being laid/adding brood frame - check for queen cells. (should be capped or very close).
3 weeks from that point is a good time to make sure she is laying.
If you go into the hive while a virgin is loose, you risk the bees getting upset and possibly balling her. It is a very delicate time. Once I see a capped queen cell, unless I am going to be cutting cells for transfer, I do not go back in for at least 3 weeks.

In order to make a queen - the hive also needs enough bees to last at least a month while she grows and starts to lay. The whole process takes about 28 days.

Re: Cut out

Robherc, have you ever seen live capped queen cells, but no other eggs, larve, or brood? I'm thinking they are just a couple of old dead queen cells.

He mentioned no eggs/larvae...not no capped brood, so yes, I've seen hives with no open brood, but live Q cells. Other than that, I think we're in agreement now, however.

Sounds like you have a great mentor, ultimetly you should follow his advise with your new hive because he is there and willing to help and that makes all the difference.

I couldn't agree more with this one; we're doing "the best we can with the information we have" in answering your questions, Marvin, but your mentor is there, and can directly observe the things we're having to guess to "fill in the details" on.

Re: Cut out

Once again I appreciate all the info provided. My mentor and I are going to do a quick inspection tomorrow just to determine if the queen cell has hatched or not and then close it right back up. We are only going to take out the frame that the queen cell was on. If we find that she has not hatched & it is a "dud", then we will be introducing a frame of brood to the hive. On a positive note I did see bees coming in to the hive today with pollen and what appears to be normal activity. I kept bees years ago for a couple of years when I was a teenager. But of course this was when there was no such thing as the Internet or forums with lots of great information! I will post again after our inspection tomorrow & post what is found!

Re: Cut out

Checked hive today and found hatched queen cell. Lots of bees active in the hive. Did not spot queen but I didn't leave the hive open but maybe 5 minutes. Hope to see eggs & brood the next time I open it. My mentor had only been gone about 1 hour and called me about a swarm approximately 1 mile from my house. We drove to where the swarm was about 30' up in a tree and I pulled the branch down by putting a ladder in the tree, shook them in a bucket and brought them home and put them in hive #2!!! What an exciting day!

Re: Cut out

AWESOME, congrats on you successful queen emergence, AND on your second hive! Now you have 2 hives, so you'll have "back ups" whenever one hive needs something (like a frame of eggs to be sure they're queen-right)