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I think the insults are unfortunate because you're both sharing good information - simply from different sides of the table.

Coming from a strength training / BB background - skipping meals isn't my forte (and my experience and "knowledge" strongly supports early morning exercise especially for fat loss) but I find all of this interesting and may give (some of) Kwalker's methods a shot. There are a lot of things that didn't work for me before I tried them

From the abstract: “Thus, dietary restriction resulting in energy intake below estimated energy needs should be avoided, not only because inadequate energy impairs performance, but also because the increased stored body fat affects appearance. It appears clear from these data that consuming sufficient energy is better than not getting enough, and getting energy on time to prevent a energy deficit state during the day is better than getting it late. “

Quote: “Normal-weight subjects are able to comply with a 1 meal/d diet. When meal frequency is decreased without a reduction in overall calorie intake, modest changes occur in body composition, some cardiovascular disease risk factors, and hematologic variables.”

Not endurance athletes, don’t care.

9. Oyvind H, et al. The effect of meal frequency on body composition during 12 weeks of strength training. 12th Annual congress of the European College of Sport Science, 2007. [ECSS]

Quote: “In this study, three meals per day resulted in larger muscle- and strength gain from strength training when in positive energy balance than six meals per day over a period of twelve weeks. “ Strength training, not endurance, don’t care.

Quote: “The blood glucose, serum insulin, and C-peptide responses to a standardized breakfast and the results of an intravenous glucose-tolerance test conducted at the end of each diet were similar. We conclude that in addition to the amount and type of food eaten, the frequency of meals may be an important determinant of fasting serum lipid levels, possibly in relation to changes in insulin secretion.”

Quote: “In non-obese individuals, glucose levels remained elevated throughout the day with frequent CHO meals compared to 3CHO meals, without any differences in the insulin levels. Increasing the protein content of frequent meals attenuated both the glucose and insulin response. These findings of elevated glucose levels throughout the day warrant further research, particularly in overweight and obese individuals with and without type 2 diabetes.”

Quote: “IER is as effective as CER in regards to weight loss, insulin sensitivity and other health biomarkers and may be offered as an alternative equivalent to CER for weight loss and reducing disease risk.” Yay, for the fatties. Not athletes, don’t care.

14. Garrow JS, et al. The effect of meal frequency and protein concentration on the composition of the weight lost by obese subjects. Br J Nutr. 1981 Jan;45(1):5-15. [Medline]

Quote: “in our own series the manipulation of meal frequency alone did not give a significant effect on weight loss” Yay for the fatties again.

Quotes: “Results showed that the equally distributed whey protein group had significantly greater postprandial MPS after the breakfast meal and larger muscle mass than the unequally distributed treatment.”

Quote: “In conclusion, ingestion of a CAA supplement produces a greater anabolic effect than ingestion of a nutritionally mixed meal, despite similar EAA content. Furthermore, ingestion of the CAA supplement does not result in a subsequent compensatory nadir in net phenylalanine balance and does not effect the normal anabolic response to ingestion of a nutritionally mixed meal.”

Quote: “IF does not affect whole-body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism in healthy lean men despite changes in muscle phosphorylation of GSK and mTOR. The decrease in resting energy expenditure after IF indicates the possibility of an increase in weight during IF when caloric intake is not adjusted.” Yay, IF “works”.

Quote: “A protein pulse-feeding pattern was more efficient than was a protein spread-feeding pattern in improving, after 14 d, whole-body protein retention in elderly women.” Go the elderly, not athletes….

I read all of the studies, but figuring you wouldn't bother to read the articles they came from nor debate the people that wrote them (because that would require you to actually have something to back your opinions up or actually state your background and expertise in public). In the context of how they were cited, they all make sense for: not worrying about meal frequency, delaying initial feeding, not feeding as much in the morning when cortisol is high, IF working as a protocol for strength athletes, etc.

What I recommended above wasn't IF. In fact, I said it would be dumb to try with cycling training, especially in the AM. What I suggested was eating CHO when it mattered- to saturate blood glucose before a workout to spare glycogen, during a workout to spare glycogen, and after to replenish it and keeping it lower at other times unless volume was high. Consider the following scenario (with all numbers based on the studies listed after it):2 hr workout with 1 hr of work at 90% of vo2 max=~1400kcal expended for an average 160lb athleteAssuming glycogen is topped up to a full 2050kcal and the athlete burned roughly ~72% of their energy from glycogen during that hour of higher intensity work, they burn 504kcal from glycogen during that hour and assuming the rest of the ride is at a normal L2 pace when rates are much lower this lowers to slightly above 50% for another 350kcal for around 854kcal total from glycogen. This is also assuming they didn't have saturated blood glucose, which is unrealistic but complicated to plug into an example. Even plasma glucose and FFA accounts for close the same amount of energy expenditure at this high of a percentage of vo2 max so if they feed after hour 1 at the normal rate of 300-400kcal/hr they're left with 454kcal of glycogen used at most, but is most likely lower since they spent part of that hour resting and part doing intervals. 454kcal is only 113.5g of CHO

Extending duration still doesn't use more CHO as percentage of expenditure because as the first link states, there is a progressive decrease in reliance on intramuscular triglycerides or glycogen over time. Stretch that ride out to 3 hours and with the decrease in rates and increase in a reliance on plasma glucose from exogenous feeding and you get a whopping total of ~600kcal of glycogen used or 150g of CHO needed to compensate for that PWO. With the rate of 1.2g/kg of body mass being the ideal/maximal replenishment amount that's 87g immediately PWO so they have either 40g left to consume for a 2 hr ride or 70g for the 3 hour ride.

So tell me then how my strategy fails for the normal rider given these rough approximations (based on studies)? For your every day guy doing 2x20's and maybe 2hrs a day bar the long weekend ride, a high CHO diet is not necessary for the base period and most of the build period save for when they introduce heavily CHO dependent/depleting L5 and above work. Then I wouldn't restrict at all, but for much of the year significant CHO intake is not necessary. So how would they get their calories? Increase proteins and healthy fats. They don't need the protein for extra recovery, but there are a lot of advantages to over eating protein vs overeating CHO or fat namely that it is extremely difficult to break down and store as lipids aka it can't easily be shuttled into fat unless the entire diet is in a caloric surplus. So my advice for timing CHO, for the normal person, makes sense in that they take in what they need when they need it and minimize chance for fat accrual by ingesting tons of insulinogenic foods when they're sitting at their desk doing their day job.

I went through your responses. Endurance athlete is too lose of a term to quantify and pick out as a flaw with every study. Simply put, most metabolic processes do not greatly change except during and shortly after workout. Moreover, a person that runs 6 hours a week and does a half marathon is an endurance athlete, but so is a Cat 3 road racer that rides 15 hours a week. There is nothing that special about an endurance athlete so long as they consume adequate calories to compensate for the energy they expend and consume the types of macronutrients that their events require. Simple as that. They don't have higher resting glycogen resynthesis rates, they don't have lower basal cortisol upon waking, they don't have different amounts of leptin or ghrelin, and they don't have a drastically different amount of insulin sensitivity (except around workout or if they were doing an extremely high volume such as a pro would do, in which case I wouldn't bother with any of that). If you could find information that specified how someone changes biologically from every other type of athlete out there I would be curious to hear it.

As I've said all along, its not a strategy that could work with endurance athletes the way that Berkhan, Berardi, Norton, et. al use it for strength athletes and short course track athletes because of KJ turnover, however, its still a dieting strategy that has its merits.

You've yet to answer how it could impair recovery on an off day if total Kcal consumed is the same. Biologically speaking it can't impair so long as all calories are consumed before the krebs cycle ends. What I suggested for those of us with normal day jobs that do not have any issues getting calories in is that on an off day it could not hurt to try and for me, it works really well. The other recommendations I posted of centering carbs around workouts mathematically work as well. The person is never left in a state of not being able to recover due to an extreme caloric deficit. All they would do is eat their food when they have the highest ability to utilize certain macronutrients in a positive manner.

Gl

_________________Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.GramzStrava

So let's get a summary of where we are at:-KWalker: IF doesn't really work for endurance athletes waffle waffle waffle.HUMP DIESEL: I might use IF in rest days.Tapeworm: IF on rest days not a good idea.KWalker: Waffle [large amounts of irrelevant studies], Tapeworm is wrong, coaches imaginary riders, no qualifications, waffle, waffle. KWalker (in other thread): IF doesn't really work in endurance athletes....

That about right so far?

_________________"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study.""I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

-I coach 6 riders from the NRC to masters 35+ level. Its for fun. For 3 years I worked alongside a few D1 pro strength and conditioning coaches and got my intro to physiology and literature that way. I've never charged for work or claimed to be a coach. I have ALWAYS stated that I do not hold a degree in the subject and get my information from journals, studies, seminars, webinars, or other experts.

You forgot this part:TW-I'm a complete arse who can never, ever post something that actually refutes what is said. I have failed to actually provide information for why it is a bad idea on rest days and failed to dismantle any arguments about the diet advice KW posted. I have never listed my clients, credentials, or any helpful knowledge aside from 5 sentence responses.

_________________Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.GramzStrava

Like I said, I''ll reply in full when I have gone through all those relevant studies.

Edit: On the subject of clients I will never post any details about any of them unless I have their express permission to do so. Client/coach confidentiality, that sort of thing. If you ever work in a professional field you may understand the reasons for that.

_________________"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study.""I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

I do as I'm a government contractor and why I didn't post the names or records of anyone I've worked with. You could still post your name, background, training, credentials, etc.

Also you have not posted 1 single thing or compelling argument to substantiate your point of view but rather haphazardly picked apart supporting arguments for a protocol that has a hell of a lot more evidence behind it than what you've posted for yourself so far. As I said I'm simply reposting the supporting evidence for those arguments as well as anecdotal evidence from myself and a limited client base.

You still need to:1. Provide an argument for why an IF protocol on a rest day will impair recovery if total kcal taken in is equal i.e. the same athlete with the same load eats the same meals except in an 8 hour period instead of 16.

2. Explain why the protocol I mentioned above, which is based on fairly accurate estimates of energy expended during a NORMAL (the person reading this board for info) training ride. I provided examples of what would roughly equal a 2 hr ride with 1 hr of decent intensity at threshold or so, and a similar 3hr ride along with the total kcal of glycogen used. If you can provide a convincing argument for why the athlete in that example would go wrong with what I recommended (which more than adequately covers the amount of glycogen they will expend and has the same CHO per day as most people take in, just centered around exercise) it would be fascinating. Of the very limited number of World Tour pros I know, that's essentially how they eat and how their camps/races diets are planned by team nutritionists. So if you have a better protocol then both myself and a few pro teams are waiting to hear it.

_________________Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.GramzStrava

“In summary, our experiments indicate that the cortisol response to protein-containing meals originates from an amino acid-dependent activation of the gastrointestinal mucosa. How this signal is reported to the HPA system to stimulate cortisol release is not yet clear. Afferent neurons of the vagus nerve, which is known to enable gut-brain communication, may serve this function. The vagus nerve could also be the target of neuropharmacological agents like cholinergic and adrenergic agonists that have been shown to reinforce the meal-related increase in cortisol release (3, 31). Also, vagal stimulation effectively stimulates HPA secretory activity (32). Alternatively, the intake of proteins and the accumulation of amino acids in the gut might stimulate the release of enteric hormones like cholecystokinin and gastrin-releasing peptide that, in turn, stimulate HPA secretory activity (33, 34).”

Discussing relationship between insulin and corticosteroids and how changes in levels dictate how energy is being stored either muscle store or abdominal fat stores. Abdominal storage most likely linked to increased activity in the HPA axis. All in rats – more study required to determine effects in humans.

So what have we got so far? The evidence posted for any sort of food delay is... really underwhelming.

There is a lot of research going on in relation to the finer points endocrinology/neuroendocrinology in relation to the way we eat. There is plenty of evidence that people with chronic problems can sometimes alleviate or diminish these issues through diet control. An extreme example is the use of ketogenesis in controlling epilepsy of children. And that is pretty extreme.

Some better examples of studies which may actually yield some, at least not contrary findings, to your proposed methods are those which pertain to athletes who fast during Ramadan (large sample sizes available). The below studies not previously listed address the issue more closely. Some support, some show neutral benefits, others not so good.

Fasting and sport: an introduction.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20460260" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Quote: "Prolonged periods of training in the fasted state may not allow optimum adaptation of muscles and other tissues. Further research on a wide range of athletes with special nutrition needs is urgently required."

Intermittent fasting does not affect whole-body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Quote: "The decrease in resting energy expenditure after IF indicates the possibility of an increase in weight during IF when caloric intake is not adjusted."Not so good...

Lipid profiles of judo athletes during Ramadan.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17879887" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Quote: "In conclusion, the present results show that the combination of the change in diet pattern during Ramadan, along with intense exercise training, induced a significant decrease in body mass associated with a reduction in body fat and changes in some of the serum lipids and lipoproteins. Nevertheless, all the measured serum parameters remained within normal levels for young and active individuals. The volunteers, in this study, were able to maintain a constant training load during RIF."

Lost body fat and over mass, training load maintained. All good.

The amount of research getting close to any sort vague benefits to endurance athletes for food scheduling simply isn't there. Yet. To draw conclusions for the eating the patterns of athletes from the long list of studies is highly ludicrous endeavour. And yet people are. That leangains site is hilarious, real science there. Now, I may be proved 100% wrong on my stance but it sure as hell isn't from a single thing posted so far. In 10 years time with more comprehensive research? Hell yeah, wouldn't be the first time.

I am skeptical in the sense that I have seen all these or similar "wondrous" touted before when the Atkins diet was all the rage. The placebo effect is very awesome, not to mention self-delusion. "I am on a new diet, let me tell you how awesome it is." Additionally the more complex the diet the better people think it works. And now we have the paleo diet, raw diet, fruit only diet blah blah blah.

We have also seen the science switch from "thirst response is unreliable - drink to schedule" [thanks Gatorade] to "we evolved with a good thirst response - drink to thirst." Until there is mound of supporting conclusive evidence that we have to carefully schedule our meals eating to hunger will be my chosen path. What we eat however...

I would not be able to link not a single study which stipulates any one person should eat X diet simply because an individual's needs and demands vary greatly. However there are some generalisations which I think most agree on. "Natural" food is good, vegetables, fruit, meats, fish, nuts, seeds, legumes etc are good. Protein highly important for the athlete, saturated fat too. Again, amounts vary from person to person.

So this whole exercise has demonstrated that:-1) you have lousy research skills2) there is no quantifiable benefit to delaying or rescheduling meals (plenty of anecdotes)3) doing so is potentially impractical (for me it would be 1500 cal in one sitting, hell no) with potential to feeling hungry - for no good reason. 4) amateur athletes apparently need whey hydrosolate/casein hydrosolate, R-ALA/nutrient partitioning....

So why do any sort of IF or scheduling on rest days?

KWalker wrote:

Pretty solid and scientifically substantiated concept.

Rock solid science. For all to see.

Maybe next time be more discerning with your research instead of posting a long list of pretty, but irrelevant, crap.

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