Karlin,
Hi! As you can see I'm new. I tried this post before but apparently I didn't get it posted as I can't find it! :roll: I have been reading some of the posts and came across yours regarding registries associated with puppy mills. Something I've become more and more concerned about. One of the registries listed was America's Pet Registry, Inc. or APRI. I am a little confused on this as I am familiar with APRI and don't have the same opinion. I understand that APRI ONLY accepts dogs that are already registered with AKC. In other words, all APRI puppies come from lines that originated in AKC. APRI claims that all of their dogs or their ancestors can be traced to AKC stud books. Your post said something (and I don't mean to misquote you but I don't know how to use the quote button) about the listed registries accepting dogs without any verification process or from the pedigree stated. I ask why they are listed not to challenge you but to understand. My puppy came with APRI papers and I do have some concerns about whether he could be a Cav/Charlie mix or just a pet quality representation of a Cav. I am a member of the APRI forum and have been satisifed with the info I've received from APRI and the folks that post there. I am aware that some folks question APRI but I've been wondering on what grounds since my personal experience has been good so far. I do agree there are probably APRI pups from puppy mills but unfortunately I imagine there are puppy mills in most any registry. :( I look forward to hearing your opinion on why they were listed. I hope you do understand I am in NO WAY trying to challenge you just trying to see both sides. :)

Karlin

4th June 2005, 02:19 AM

You are always welcome to challenge people here too, don't worry about that! :)

Here is a list of what are considered bogus registries:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=216

It does include APR which I assume is the same as APRI. In general these registries mean nothing -- if a puppy comes with such papers it is very definitely a backyard bred puppy or a puppy farm puppy as no reputable breeder would ever use such registries -- a breeder would be better at explaining why than I. In general, regarding APR, it means nothing that *somewhere* in the background of a dog there is an AKC registered dog (any cavalier at some point in its background comes from dogs that are purebred and registered with a reputable regsitry as the breed originates back to so few dogs) -- what you want is an AKC registered puppy. If the breeder could not register with AKC or ACKCSC or one of the reputable national registries worldwide there are good reasons -- the dog does not have the background that would enable to it to carry a registration that verifies its breeder conforms to minimum standards and that the dog comes from the background it is supposed to come from. Yes an AKC or other reputable registry can have dogs from questionable breeders but it is fairly difficult to register a puppy mill/farm or BYB dog with reputable registries. Often such supposed registrations are forged (many of the Irish papers for example are forged -- if it is a hand-written IKC pedigree for example you can be sure it is a forgery).

Perhaps some others can come in here and provide some further detail.

Look at it this way -- in the US, the AKC and ACKCSC have codes of conduct and requirements for breeders and have breed clubs that maintain breed standards not least through organised shows, supplying qualified judges, awarding the prizes that indicate a dog (and its breeder) is of merit to the breed. They organise health clinics and fund raisers; educational events and do breed rescue affilitated ot the clubs. National breed registries do the same.

What do these other registries do? What do they guarantee? How do they add to the health or knowledge of the breed? They don't hold shows, they don't organise breed events, they don't take a defining role in working on behalf of breeds... They basically take a payment and hand over a document that breeders can offer with puppies as 'registration papers' and many pet owners will not know that such papers have no meaning or any standing (especially not in any legal sense!) as a guarantee of a dog's background, parentage, or quality.

That said, there is no reason why anyone should value and love a dog any less for not having come from a reputable breeder. Many of us own dogs that we got when we didn't know how to go about looking for a good breeder or why it is important to do so. And many of us own and cherish rescue dogs, some that we know come straight from puppy farms/mills, and they are no less wonderful for that.

For cavaliers I can give especially strong reasons why it is important to go to a reputable breeder: the breed is in crisis due to two major health issues, mitral valve disease and syringomyelia, and the only hope it has of regaining longevity and hopefully someday eliminating or at least minimising these horrible conditions is through very careful breeding. There is a worldwide research effort underway to try to identify the genetic markers for syringomyelia for example; there's more info in the Health FAQ. Every signle backyard bred or puppy mill litter, or litter bred by otherwise good breeders not fully informed on these issues, has the potential to further entrench these conditions in the breed. Already MVD has dropped the lifespan of cavaliers from what should be a good 12-15 years to an average of about 7-8. All cavalier owners should read and stay informed on these breed issues. Buying your dog ONLY from reputable breeders is helping preserve the breed, and is one way you can personally help cavaliers from declining further.

Max's Mom

4th June 2005, 03:14 PM

Karlin

Actually it is a common misconception that APR and APRI are the same registry. They are not. APRI did recently acquire APR but they have totally separate data bases and APR doesn't have requirements for registry that are very meaningful. It is a registry just for the sake of saying your dog is registered.

I didn't explain very well before but APRI doesn't accept a dog just because it may have an AKC in its history. Actually the dam and sire must both the AKC for a pup to be APRI registered. Any dog with a legitimate AKC registry can be dual registered with APRI and their pups could be AKC or APRI or both. Of course those pups if registered APRI could then later have pups that would be accepted in APRI because their "grandparents" were AKC registered and dual registered with APRI. Am explaining this well? :? My point is that APRI will not accept just any dog. If a litter's grandparents were AKC but the dam and sire were never AKC registered then that litter is no more eligible for APRI than it is for AKC. They are rather strict. Again, I'm no expert but I do think they are legit though not as well recognized or respected as AKC, yet.

If you get time check out their site and let me know what you think after reading about their requirements, health and breeding standards, etc.
www.aprpets.org

BTW, thanks for all of the other info you shared!

rory

4th June 2005, 07:04 PM

Not to be antagonistic at all, but what's the point of registering with another registry?

I have Rory AKC and CKCSC registered because I am showing him. But why would you need to register with any registry if you weren't planning on doing this?

From a breeder standpoint, it was important to me that the parents be registered with AKC and I also liked that they were registered with CKCSC because that shows another level of dedication to the breed and standards for breeding.

But I just don't know why you would want to register w/ APR or APRI or anything else except to be able to say tha the dog was "registered" and had "papers", to potentially convince buyers that the breeding was careful and the parents were quality.

Karlin

4th June 2005, 08:38 PM

This is a really important issue IMHO and I am glad you started a discussion about it and hope some more will add their perspectoves and knowledge. It is something I have come to feel very strongly about (not least because I live in the country which has become one of the puppy farm capitols of the world). The best person to ask about such a registry and the reason for using it or not using it would be people who are experienced in both showing and breeding. Maybe someone with that background will add their voice here.

As rory says, I don't understand why someone would not choose the standard registries, which each have global recognition for good reason -- caring about continuous improvement of the breed and maintaining the breed standard. It is not simply the registry itself but the fact that the well-established breed clubs -- who themselves are actually the ones that maintain the standards -- affiliate *to the established registries* that is significant.

One could argue that something like APRI is a 'fun' registry to which people who don't want all the official competition of the standard shows might join and get involved with.

But look at this -- here they show their true colours and are saying they have been 'persuaded' to accept exactly the dogs that come from backyard breeders and puppy mills -- dogs whose parents might be known but are of 'no known pedigree' -- and give such dogs registration papers!! If the parents are pedigreed the puppy should be able to be registered with a known registry, full stop. If the parents are 'known' but the rest of the parents' history is not, then the registration again is totally meaningless! It is a piece of paper to hand to an unsuspecting puppy buyer who thinks the paper proves the breeder is not a BYB or puppy mill. If they wished to establish themselves as a reputable registry over time, APRI would NOT be doing this (and notice just how easy it will be to confuse APRI with supposedly higher standards and APR which will register *anything*). This is what they say on the homepage:

APRI announces the founding of American Pet Records

America's Pet Registry, Inc. has yielded to the requests of numerous breeders and pet owners to establish a registry service that can accept dogs with known parents but those that do not have documented pedigrees at this time.

Until now, APRI has been unable to register many dogs from other registry services that do not have documented pedigrees. With the establishment of American Pet Records the same great APRI service is available to those who have begged APRI to accept their dogs for dual registration.

ﾃつ*ﾃつ*ﾃつ*ﾃつ*ﾃつ* The American Pet Records dogs will not be entered into the APRI database but will be recorded separately.ﾃつ*ﾃつ*ﾃつ*ﾃつ* ﾃつ*ﾃつ*ﾃつ*ﾃつ* An American Pet Records dog may be mated with an APRI dog; however, the litter will be issued as American Pet Records. Litter pedigrees will not be offered on these litters, nor will pedigrees on the American Pet Records dogs be available at this time.

Litter registration fees will be same as with APRI.

The normal registration fee with American Pet Records is $20.00, but registered breeders will be charged only $10.00 for registration. Breeders may register with either APRI or American Pet Records.

For more information, please contact the APRI or American Pet Records offices. The same courteous and knowledgeable personnel will be available.

No recognised registry of any status in the global purebred dog world would register a dog or a litter in this way, or recognise such a dog as healthy potential breeding stock able to ADD something to the breed (which is why breeders should breed). Imagine a cavalier of unknown parentage being bred -- where no one has the several generation ability to research the longevity of the dog's predecessors and thus, have an indication of whether this dog will add healthy genes or introduce MVD or SM at a young age to the pups!!

Once again: reputable breeders register ot the accepted registers because it is one way of stating a commitment to the breed, a commitment to breed health, and a commitment to the breed standard. Also such registration recognises that dogs have a verified background. Dogs have to have a five generation pedigree so that, if that dog is used to produce a litter, proper research on breeding coefficients, health history, longevity and so forth are available immediately to the breeder.

Puppies registered with the AKC and many other registries now must be verified though a DNA sample as being the dog the pedigree says it is. In Ireland, all IKC registered dogs from January must be microchipped with full info on the breeder so that the breeder remains traceable thru the lifetime of the dog. These things are done for a purpose -- to as best as possible push breeders in the direction of ensuring a cavalier fits the breed standard, looks like a cavalier and not a mix of other breeds (you'd be amazed how many puppy farm/mill cavaliers do not look much like cavaliers -- you can see the other crosses that must have snuck into the lines), has as best as poswsible the chance of a long life.

I feel very strongly about the ways in which these registries generally dupe pet buyers to think their dog has purebred value -- and thus breeding quality -- it does not -- and persuades people who know nothing about breeding to try their hand at it. Indiscriminate breeding by BYBs and puppy mills are why dalmations are riddled with urinary tract problems, boxers are prone to cancer, cockers go into fits of rage, labradors have become aggressive in many lines, St Bernards, once a gentle dog, likewise are becoming aggressive, poodles and cairns have all sorts of problems, westies have major allergy and skin problems, old english sheepdogs have aggression issues, and are a major contributing factor to why nearly 100% of cavaliers will die from MVD and nearly half will have an audible heart murmur by age 3. If you have seen puppy farm conditions or worked in rescue you see the miserable conditions and the sad health issues such dogs suffer from -- and you understand more than ever why breeding should be left to those truly committed to the breed -- who work through the established registries.

rory

4th June 2005, 10:05 PM

All good points, Karlin.

But I had to point out this:

Indiscriminate breeding by BYBs and puppy mills are why dalmations are riddled with urinary tract problems...

Actually, all dalmations are fixed for hyperuricosuria (high uric acid in their urine). It's a fixed trait in the breed (like spots) and has nothing to do with quality breeding. All Dals carry double recessive alleles for this trait, so even the very best Dalmations will produce 100% affected dogs with a predisposition to forming urine stones.

I'm going to be working in a genetics lab at UC Davis this summer trying to locate the gene that is responsible for this, which is the only reason I know anything about it. ;)

Ruth

5th June 2005, 03:30 PM

Karlin you hit the nail on head and expressed views that I strongly believe in, except much more eloquently.
Why do these registries exist ? purely and simply to make money, but the potential for harm as Karlin states is enormous.
Ruth

Max's Mom

6th June 2005, 03:54 PM

I appreciate the discussion this has started! I also appreciate that it has come across as discussion not as an attack on me (or anyone else!) who does have some positive opinions and feelings towards APRI. :) Karlin thanks for taking the time to visit the APRI site. I know you focused on APRI acquiring APR but I hope you'll check out some of their other discussions/forums and see what you think over time. :)

That being said I want to clarify a couple of things:

1. I never really thought about it but I completely agree APRI acquiring APR doesn't help their credibility becuase it may indicate that they are making an effort to "register" questionable dogs with unknown pedigrees, even if it is a separate database. And again what is the purpose and than just registering for the sake of being registered. Why breed a dog you don't know the history of it?

2. I have little experience but many folks who use APRI continue to use AKC but feel APRI is much more customer friendly, courteous, and prompt. I have no particular experience with either so I can't compare.

3. From my understanding APRI does host shows and offer breeder education but again I have no personal experience with these things and can't speak to the quality or success of them. The posts that I've read seem very positive but that is all I know.

4. As I probably said Max came with APRI litter papers, which was rather irrelevant to me because I wanted a pet and didn't intend to show or breed. Max was neutered as soon as he was old enough and to be honest I didn't even bother to send the papers in. What would be the purpose?

5. I think it is awesome that AKC is requiring DNA to prove parents for a litter. As I said, I think Max has some Charlie characteristics. This could be because he is a pet quality Cav and they did descend from the same stock at one point OR it could be because the breeder had BOTH Cavs and Charlies...and an "oops" occurred. My understanding is that a dam could be impregnated by two different sires at the same time. Either way I love my little guy and he has all the important Cav traits...loves you, loves everyone, and has a superb temperament! BUT THAT BEING SAID I WOULD STILL WOULD HAVE LIKED IT IF DNA HAD BEEN REQUIRED TO PROVE THE PARENTS!!! After all I had Max neutered but what if somebody else out there wasn't so considerate of a pup not meeting breed standard and continues to breed them and register them?! Just because a dog is a wonderful pet doesn't mean it should lend it's genes to future generations!!! :lol:

Does it seem like I strandle the fence on this issue??? I guess I kind of do. I don't believe in just any "other" registry but I do believe that just becuase a registry was first, AKC for example, doesn't mean it will always be the ONLY legitimate registry out there. I do agree however that at this point they are certainly the most experienced, well recognized and trusted registry. Since I don't breed, and have no intentions of doing so, I don't want to take either "side". I just like for folks to be open minded to change and new things! Kudos to those of you who are responsible breeders and are committed to raising healthy pups!

Ruth

6th June 2005, 10:32 PM

My personal interest in this is not from a show/breed point of view, but from a hoarder of pedigrees!!
I have a database with about 40,000 pedigrees in it and barring a few exceptions I know when I pull these pedigrees out that the information is correct.
My records are predominantly UK KC records back to the early 1900's.
I dread to think what would happen if there were other registries involved.
Whilst this might seem a selfish reason, there is a need for pedigree research as sadly demonstrated by the SM problem.
Warm wishes,
Ruth