...Also, I have to say its really fascinating that the L21 block in Ireland includes clades who, when interclade variance is calculated, have not shared a common ancestor since around the time of L21 itself. L21 is clearly not going to remain something that can be considered in a monolithic way for much longer. Even Irish L21 looks rather like it had multiple entries into Ireland at different times and from different directions.

BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure. Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed. I do vaguely recall him posting that. There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times. I will have a dig about to check. Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing.

BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure. Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed. I do vaguely recall him posting that. There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times. I will have a dig about to check. Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing.

I cant say I rate the beaker maps on the web highly but the ones that are from books do seem to indicate that the coastal NE of Iberia lacks beakers although there seems to have been a healthy amount in the eastern Messeta inland. In terms of coasts Portugal and SE Iberia stand out. I would like to see a more up to date study on beakers in Iberia though.

For people who are into the tribal names thing, the Gangani tribe of SW Ireland and NW Wales noted in early Roman times has been linked by some to the Concani tribe of the Cantabri of Cantabria in NE Spain. I am pretty sure that the museum in Santander, the capital of Cantabria, have some British/Irish metalwork of the late Bronze Age, considered imports. I wonder if there was some sort of Bronze Age metal trade connection that linked Cantabria, NE Wales and SW Ireland and perhaps a tribal outpost in each area linked to it. It just sprung to mind because of the remote NE Spanish/SW Ireland link that Z253 could suggest. It may have been small scale because most of the Z253 people do seem to belong to Medieval clusters rather than indicating any sort of large movement. I also would feel its extremely likely that Z253 would have been present in the Atlantic France area in between. Wiki notes of the Cantabri:

According to Pliny the Elder[8] Cantabria also contained gold, silver, tin, lead and iron mines, as well as magnetite and amber, but little is known about them; Strabo[9] also mentions salt extraction in mines, such as the ones existent around Cabezón de la Sal.

Of course the SW of Ireland featured a number of Copper Mines of copper and early Bronze Age date while NW Wales featured the Early Bronze Age Great Orme copper mine.

So, early mining seems to be associated with the SW Irish, NW Welsh and NE Spanish areas where the similar sounding tribal names were located. I generally am not into this O'Rahilly type comparing of tribal names but I do find the Gangani-Concani one interesting. If it was a real connection I would (in the absence of any similarities in the archaeological record of the Iron Age) tend to think the connection dates back to the early Bronze Age.

Actually, it seems that one of the British-Irish cauldrons was actually found in a prehistoric mine in Cantabria.

I found this article on the Atlantic Bronze Age on the web. It is not all in English but it seems much more thorough an exploration of it than most of what can be found on the web. Some useful distribution maps of Atlantic Bronze Age material is provided.

The overall tone seem a bit skeptical about the Atlantic Bronze Age. I really wish someone would publish a good in depth book on the subject in English. I sort of muddled my way through the French but my Spanish is even more rudimentary.

One thing about the Atlantic Bronze Age to bear in mind is that it is seen as an elite trade/contact network rather than migration except perhaps on a very small scale. While the high status material has an international flavour the ordinary stuff often seem rather localised and different. The Atlantic Bronze Age elite contact network is a plausible location for the emergence of Celtic out of Italo-Celtic or west IE (the more I read into it, the more it seems more plausible than the old model of late Celticization of the west by Urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene elements) but it clearly did not estabish the haplotype and clade proportions in Atlantic Europe as they are very divergent across its expanse. I wouldnt rule out the possibility that the network may have allowed minor trickles of multi-directional movement though.

As for Z253 tests pending, I know one of our Portuguese guys just ordered it, and one of our French guys has it on order, with the result due 22 February. A number of guys with British Isles surnames have it on order.

I want to order it myself, but I just spent what is for me a bundle of cash for the Family Finder test. Z253 will have to wait.

Actually, it seems that one of the British-Irish cauldrons was actually found in a prehistoric mine in Cantabria.

I found this article on the Atlantic Bronze Age on the web. It is not all in English but it seems much more thorough an exploration of it than most of what can be found on the web. Some useful distribution maps of Atlantic Bronze Age material is provided.

That is a very interesting series of papers followed by a discussion. I managed to get through all of the French and some of the Spanish. What struck me was the similarity of the Torcs and Lunulae from Ireland and Brittany and the similarity of shields found in Portugal and Ireland. The Iberian chariots supports are similar to those fount in Halstatt and they mention similarities with daggers found in The Alps. It would appear that the Atlantic Bronze age had some connection with Halstatt and Le Tene.

As for Z253 tests pending, I know one of our Portuguese guys just ordered it, and one of our French guys has it on order, with the result due 22 February. A number of guys with British Isles surnames have it on order.

I want to order it myself, but I just spent what is for me a bundle of cash for the Family Finder test. Z253 will have to wait.

well out of the two people with locations, they perfectly fit my idea of Z253 in NE Spain and L21* in western Iberia. I think that wraps it up lol

Shame there is a lack of known origin points in Iberia. I wonder if anyone can comment on the surnames and if they indicate area of origin within Iberia.

Actually Davila and Sandana seem to both be names from Castille y Leon (kind of northern and just inland from Cantabria etc) while Chavez is often Portuguese. That does kind of place the two negatives in western Iberia and the two positives more north-easterly. I love trying to spot patterns lol. Cant help myself!

Actually Davila and Sandana seem to both be names from Castille y Leon (kind of northern and just inland from Cantabria etc) while Chavez is often Portuguese. That does kind of place the two negatives in western Iberia and the two positives more north-easterly. I love trying to spot patterns lol. Cant help myself!

The patterns you spot are helpful. You were the one who predicted that L21 would be (or might be) common in France, and you were ultimately proven right.

There may be something to that possible Gangani/Concani connection to Z253 you mentioned earlier.

... The DYS464=13, 13, 15,17 of the Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness and the link with the ancestral values of R1b1* and first subclades. I, who am R-L23, have only 14,14 in a,b. ....

Let's think this through a bit. You are saying Irish III's (I'll call it L226) low values at 464a and 464b reflect "ancientness" because some folks who are L23*, like yourself also have low values as well.

Please look at the establish Y DNA phlyogeny for L226 and back upstream.http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.htmlL226 descends from Z253 which descends from L21 which descends from P312 which descends from L11, etc.

We've got all of the data. The modal at 464a,b for L21 is 15,15. This is not a marginal statement. From our DNA projects for L21:

464a3480 have 15408 have 14274 have 13

464b2933 have 1559 have 14195 have 13

So for low values like 14 or 13 to be the ancestral values for L21 means those folks had extremely bad luck while the guys who had 464a,b=15,15 just took off. For L21 maybe this happened so the low values are ancestral - just the 15,15 guys were lucky.'

We go up the next step to P312 what do we find? The same thing. 464a,b=15,15 is the clear modal for P312. L21 brother U152 also has 15,15 underneath P312... so does brother Z196.

Let's go back another step to L11. The same. L11's modal is 15,15. L11*'s is also 15,15.

It would amazing for the ancestral lineage back to L23 to have the low 464a,b values carry forward through the descendants down to L226 while at least three different times, L11, P312 and L21 - different 15,15 guys became much, much more numerous after having their mutations to 15,15.

I have no time to respond your questions in detail and I have treated these arguments many times and in many postings. I have criticized your use of the modal values, which are conceived by you only like the most diffused, but which proof have you that those were the original ones? None. Let’s take the two Spanish guys (R-Z253) quoted by Rich Stevens:

the former has DYS464=15-15-17-17the latter has DYS464=14-15-16-17

By your reasoning the former would be the modal unchanged, and the latter would have had two mutations in a and c, both backwards. But how can you presuppose this? Only by a prejudice, i.e. by its etymology a judgment done before any proof. And you don’t know how many mutations may have happened from the original DYS464, how many mutations around the modal, how many convergence to the modal, how many mutations for the tangent may be happened.

14-15-16-17 was probably the set before my 14-14-16-17, and before probably a 14-15-16-18, thought the modal of R-L23. But, also here, how many mutations etc etc? This is worth for every marker. I have said many times that your “modal” is worth nothing. Why DYS19 of R-L23 could be 14 and not my 15, seen that haplogroups upstream mine have 15 and not 14 etc etc

To my a few friends, whom now I don’t consider so, I suggested to reconstruct their modal step by step and not taking the most diffused values.

Actually Davila and Sandana seem to both be names from Castille y Leon (kind of northern and just inland from Cantabria etc) while Chavez is often Portuguese. That does kind of place the two negatives in western Iberia and the two positives more north-easterly. I love trying to spot patterns lol. Cant help myself!

The patterns you spot are helpful. You were the one who predicted that L21 would be (or might be) common in France, and you were ultimately proven right.

There may be something to that possible Gangani/Concani connection to Z253 you mentioned earlier.

I think northern France was an absolute cert for L21 given its the main source of contact with the isles through much of prehistory and again in the high Medieval period. What I did get wrong was I didnt realise L21 was more Atlantic in its continental centre of gravity than U152 because of the misleading pileup of south German L21 that quickly and steadily came through hobby testing. However, if we hadnt done the funded French testing, we could have wrongly thought it was a south German cluster for a long time.

I have no time to respond your questions in detail and I have treated these arguments many times and in many postings. I have criticized your use of the modal values, which are conceived by you only like the most diffused, but which proof have you that those were the original ones? None. Let’s take the two Spanish guys (R-Z253) quoted by Rich Stevens:

the former has DYS464=15-15-17-17the latter has DYS464=14-15-16-17

By your reasoning the former would be the modal unchanged, and the latter would have had two mutations in a and c, both backwards. But how can you presuppose this? Only by a prejudice, i.e. by its etymology a judgment done before any proof. And you don’t know how many mutations may have happened from the original DYS464, how many mutations around the modal, how many convergence to the modal, how many mutations for the tangent may be happened.

14-15-16-17 was probably the set before my 14-14-16-17, and before probably a 14-15-16-18, thought the modal of R-L23. But, also here, how many mutations etc etc? This is worth for every marker. I have said many times that your “modal” is worth nothing. Why DYS19 of R-L23 could be 14 and not my 15, seen that haplogroups upstream mine have 15 and not 14 etc etc

To my a few friends, whom now I don’t consider so, I suggested to reconstruct their modal step by step and not taking the most diffused values.

See about this what are saying Anatole Klyosov on Rootsweb, after that I have criticized his method on “Dienekes’ Anthropology blog” and defined his work (important in his field: Chemistry) an impressive waste of time:

“The same situation exists in E-V13 subclade. The currently living people give the TMRCA of ~ 3400 ybp. However, the excavated remnant gave 7,000 ybp for E-V13. It is not a discrepancy, it is of a different meaning. The lineage is ancient, however, at some point between 7,000 and 3,400 the lineage was clinging on the brink of extinction”.

... The DYS464=13, 13, 15,17 of the Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness and the link with the ancestral values of R1b1* and first subclades. I, who am R-L23, have only 14,14 in a,b. ....

Let's think this through a bit. You are saying Irish III's (I'll call it L226) low values at 464a and 464b reflect "ancientness" because some folks who are L23*, like yourself also have low values as well.

Please look at the establish Y DNA phlyogeny for L226 and back upstream.http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.htmlL226 descends from Z253 which descends from L21 which descends from P312 which descends from L11, etc.

We've got all of the data. The modal at 464a,b for L21 is 15,15. This is not a marginal statement. From our DNA projects for L21:

464a3480 have 15408 have 14274 have 13

464b2933 have 1559 have 14195 have 13

So for low values like 14 or 13 to be the ancestral values for L21 means those folks had extremely bad luck while the guys who had 464a,b=15,15 just took off. For L21 maybe this happened so the low values are ancestral - just the 15,15 guys were lucky.'

We go up the next step to P312 what do we find? The same thing. 464a,b=15,15 is the clear modal for P312. L21 brother U152 also has 15,15 underneath P312... so does brother Z196.

Let's go back another step to L11. The same. L11's modal is 15,15. L11*'s is also 15,15.

It would amazing for the ancestral lineage back to L23 to have the low 464a,b values carry forward through the descendants down to L226 while at least three different times, L11, P312 and L21 - different 15,15 guys became much, much more numerous after having their mutations to 15,15.

I have no time to respond your questions in detail and I have treated these arguments many times and in many postings. I have criticized your use of the modal values, which are conceived by you only like the most diffused, but which proof have you that those were the original ones? None. ....

You are the one who brought this up by saying "Irish III/Dalcassian demonstrates, I think, by its low values in a and b, its ancientness." Why don't you prove that? or at least gives us some logical reasoning that the odds are high that IrishIII's 464a=13,13 is an ancient link to some haplogroup pre-M269 or pre-L23 or pre-L11.

That's got to be pretty hard to do since 464 is considered a fast mutating marker and we are talking about up to 8-15k years ago.

To consider probabilities you should take into account that between Irish III and L23 there are these clade SNP markers, Z253, L21, P312, L11 and those clades have brothers and cousins that include U152, Z196, L48 and the most common values for 464a,b are 15,15, by vast majority in each of those separate branches. That's an amazing coincidence if each of the those clades had a founder who was 464a,b=13,13 or 14,14.

I must be totally misunderstanding your English. What you are saying related to "ancientness" for IrishIII 464a,b makes no sense. Is it impossible? No, anything is possible, but why would you think to make such a linkage unless you didn't understand the Y tree structure (phylogeny.)

Well, I think we are wasting blog space and time on this, but I just don't general readers to think that if you have STR match with some people in a clade multiple branches away (thousands of years) from you in the Y DNA tree that such a match is meaningful. It's not.

Mike, read, please, my quoting above from Anatole Klyosov. For “ancientness” I did mean that, as Z253 is one of the subclade of R-L21, we can think that it is more ancient of other subclades or, for taking present Klyosov, that the other subclades may have lost the most ancient haplotypes and theirs MRCA is a person more recent etc. etc.

Mike, read, please, my quoting above from Anatole Klyosov. For “ancientness” I did mean that, as Z253 is one of the subclade of R-L21, we can think that it is more ancient of other subclades or, for taking present Klyosov, that the other subclades may have lost the most ancient haplotypes and theirs MRCA is a person more recent etc. etc.

If what you are trying point out about "ancientness" is the point that Anatole K made here? ...

Quote

The TMRCA for M222 haplotypes of CURRENTLY LIVING people is 1450+/-150 ybp (years before present). It is a grand non-interrupted super-lineage evolving from the middle of the 1st millennium AD. However, the M222 "origin" is in fact at the break of BC/AD, as determined from distinct M222 branches.It is at least 2,000 years "old".

I absolutely agree with that, which is what the interclade TMRCA Generations7 estimate have been showing. Even though M222's MRCA is not that old the lineage must have diverged from L21 and then DF23 quite a while before M222's MRCA. The interclades between M222 and L513, for example, are quite old, relatively.

Probably the same is true for L226 (IrishIII) so maybe I agree with you after all - if I understand correctly. L226 is fairly young but its lineage may have diverged from Z253 quite some time ago. That's what it's somewhat unusual STR values seem to indicate. I don't know if 464 is that reliable for telling us this, but generally L226 seems to have its own distinctive pattern.

Yes, we all agree on this, even though I have criticized Klyosov because I think that the ancientness of these haplogroups is higher. Both the V13 and the G2a found in South France had been estimated by their STR values younger, 3000 years instead of 7000, for this I am saying that your age of the haplogroups should be multiplied for 2.5 at least… and we would be in another history or, better, prehistory. From this come my theory of the agriculturalists by sea from Italy to Spain and Portugal 7500 years ago, my theory of the Italian Refugium, probably more recently the pile dwellers of the Adriatic etc.It is clear that all this shall be demonstrated by aDNA, archaeology etc.

... Both the V13 and the G2a found in South France had been estimated by their STR values younger, 3000 years instead of 7000, for this I am saying that your age of the haplogroups should be multiplied for 2.5 at least… and we would be in another history or, better, prehistory. From this come my theory...

I agree that there are problems with looking at STR diversity by geography. Balaresque did this and Busby was extremely critical saying the diversity clines for R-L11 were insignificant. This is what Dienekes is concerned about too. This is a legitimate concern.

However, that the particular matter doesn't apply where we assess groups that are known to have a common ancestor. When we look at all of of a subclade (marked by an SNP) versus another, that removes the problem that somehow we are measuring people in the wrong group (i.e. Country A person who really was from Country B earlier.) The good news when comparing haplogroups is that SNP's clarify to make sure we have right people in the right group.

Are there controversies about mutation rates in general? Sure, but that doesn't mean relative aging between groups is useless.

Ken Nordtvedt is steadfast in saying the evolutionary rates are based on bad science... fudge factors, etc. He is former member of the US National Science Board and a top statistician. He has innovated a number of concepts in TMRCA estimations. The interclade approach to age estimates that he developed is also helpful in reducing error, since we don't need as representative a collection of data from the two clades. We are looking at where they meet, not each individually.

If evolutionary rates are correct, you still have a bit of a problem with your theories in explaining the presence of hg's like G, J and E. Are you saying they are much older than Neolithic and must be Paleolithic?

I've posted Marko Heinilas ages on those haplogroups. They are clearly older than R1b-L11, which is the vast majority of R1b in Western Europe.

BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure. Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed. I do vaguely recall him posting that. There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times. I will have a dig about to check. Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing.

There is indeed Bell Beaker in NE Spain, in particular in the Basque Country. However it is not part of the first wave of Bell Beaker expansion from Portugal, that apparently did not affect that region, but from the reflux coming from the north. So yes, there is Bell Beaker in NE Spain, but its inmediate origin is the SW of France

Actually Davila and Sandana seem to both be names from Castille y Leon (kind of northern and just inland from Cantabria etc) while Chavez is often Portuguese. That does kind of place the two negatives in western Iberia and the two positives more north-easterly. I love trying to spot patterns lol. Cant help myself!

You are right, Dávila and Saldaña are toponimics from those towns in Castile and Leon. Chavez is very extended, it is mainly portuguese but there is an important jewish branch.

BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure. Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed. I do vaguely recall him posting that. There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times. I will have a dig about to check. Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing.

There is indeed Bell Beaker in NE Spain, in particular in the Basque Country. However it is not part of the first wave of Bell Beaker expansion from Portugal, that apparently did not affect that region, but from the reflux coming from the north. So yes, there is Bell Beaker in NE Spain, but its inmediate origin is the SW of France

That is interesting given the L21 hotspot (by Iberian standards) in the Basque and Cantabria areas. It would make sense if beakers in that area came from SW France where there is a reasonable amount of L21. I now tend to think if the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312 that L21 actually first occurred in France. That seems to be what variance suggests. If it expanded mainly in the beaker hotspot of Atlantic France in all directions a lot would make sense to me about its distribution which does seem to radiate from that area. For what its worth I now tend to think Celtic may have arisen in a wide area centred on Atlantic France and L21 may have been right at the heart of its origins.

BTW, I thought IALEM once posted that there is Beaker stuff all over NE Spain. Is that not the case?

I am not sure. Traditionally it was thought to be mainly SE Spain and Portugal etc but it may have changed. I do vaguely recall him posting that. There is not a good overview book on beakers in recent times. I will have a dig about to check. Certainly though the Atlantic Bronze Age would be seen mainly as a west Iberian thing.

There is indeed Bell Beaker in NE Spain, in particular in the Basque Country. However it is not part of the first wave of Bell Beaker expansion from Portugal, that apparently did not affect that region, but from the reflux coming from the north. So yes, there is Bell Beaker in NE Spain, but its inmediate origin is the SW of France

That is interesting given the L21 hotspot (by Iberian standards) in the Basque and Cantabria areas. It would make sense if beakers in that area came from SW France where there is a reasonable amount of L21. I now tend to think if the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312 that L21 actually first occurred in France. That seems to be what variance suggests. If it expanded mainly in the beaker hotspot of Atlantic France in all directions a lot would make sense to me about its distribution which does seem to radiate from that area. For what its worth I now tend to think Celtic may have arisen in a wide area centred on Atlantic France and L21 may have been right at the heart of its origins.

Alan,

I would agree that Celtic originated on the Atlantic facade during the Atlantic Bronze Age, but I would put its origins closer to Tartassian and the Tagus valley. I also agree that the beaker model is the best interpretation of P312. I think Galicia was an important hub as it is a hotspot of Celtic culture and Celtic tribes. As they spread northwards along the Atlantic facade Brittany and Morbihan became an important hub and possibly the link with the Alpine Europe, Halstatt and Le Tene via the Loire, Rhone and Rhine.

"Social and commercial relations between the peoples of the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula and those of Brittany and the British Islands date back to very remote times. Trade in tin between Ireland and Galicia was already established during the late Neolithic (MacCalister 1921:16), and the similarities in thousands of stone tombs found all along the coasts of Atlantic Europe could indicate that those contacts existed during the period of megalith construction as well (Eogan 1982). These ancient connections continued during the Bronze Age, when a welldefined socio-cultural and commercial zone called the Atlantic Façade, Area, or Province included Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland, Wales, the Cornish Peninsula, Armorica (Brittany) and Galicia in Spain, and lasted for at least three millennia (Cunliffe 1997:148). Cunliffe affords northwestern Iberia particular importance within the zone, noting how the complex influence of western seaways converged "around the isolated yet reassuring stepping-stone of Galicia" (Cunliffe 2001:60). Koch has discussed the social basis of early celticization, presenting a model in which he argues that the consolidation of a proto-Celtic language took place during the Late Bronze Age (c.1300-600 BC) in the Atlantic Zone (1991:18-19). According to a number of authors, Celtic language(s) became the lingua franca for the whole area at the time (Alonso Romero 1976; Cunliffe 1997:148-56; Meijide 1994; Ruiz-Gálvez 1984: passim). Thus, enough evidence exists to indicate that several centuries before the Christian Era, the northwest of the Iberian peninsula was already integrated into the Atlantic world (Tranoy 1981:103), and that the contacts between Galicia and the Celtic Atlantic regions continued until the middle of the first millennium AD (Cunliffe 1997: 145-49""Not long before the emergence of the Celts, an Indo-European pre- or proto-Celtic people had already settled in northwestern Iberia (Maluquer de Motes 1975: 130-31; Rankin 1996:6), a historical fact substantiated by epigraphic evidence (Tovar 1985:227-53). Strabo and Pliny described several tribes dwelling in the western regions of Iberia, among them the Celts; Herodotus refers to the Keltici in the west of the Iberian Peninsula and Pomponius Mela to the Celtici who had settled all along the northern and western coasts. Pliny left a list of the tribes living in the Conventus Lucensis (a large part of Galicia) in which he describes the regions inhabited by Celtic peoples (Tranoy 1981:41). This early presence of Celtic populations in the northwestern Iberian Peninsula is also confirmed by linguistic studies and archaeological finds (Ibid. 245-46)."http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_20/alberro_6_20.pdf

These Atlantic trading routes are described in Professor Barry Cunliffes book "The Celts".