anwserman:log_jammin: A University of Virginia student is seeking $40 million from the state and seven Alcoholic Beverage Control agents who arrested her believing she had illegally purchased beer when she had bought bottled water.

what? ABC can arrest people in Virginia?

You'd think if they thought they witnessed her buying beer illegally, they would go after the person who sold it to her, rather than go after her.

But who knows? It's just another "news" story with no details, and is barely a few sentences long.

She was jostled by a bunch of plain-clothes officers after buying supplies for a sorority fund raiser, including bottled water and cookie dough. Her actions were legal despite the seven officers who mistook otherwise.

The original article was posted on fark a while ago.

and it is perfectly legal for someone as young as five years of age to purchase a funnel and three feet of flexible tubing from a hardware store... those are supplies for most sorority fundraisers, right?

Jim_Callahan:Driving away from the cops is rarely appropriate, and trying to run OVER the cops pretty unambiguously makes her the party in the wrong here, unless they failed to identify as police or something.

It was plainclothes officers, and she left because there was nobody in uniform. She was confronted after buying cookie dough, and she ran off thinking she was going to be mugged by some random dudes. It wasn't until afterwards - when she was arrested for striking some officers - that she realized they were honestly, indeed, police instead of some kooks pretending to be police.

jso2897:simkatu: $40 million? For what? They could have put her in jail for 25 years wrongly and she wouldn't get that much. What did she do? Spend 4 hours in the pokey?

It's this strange, foreign concept we have in our law, but apparently don't teach about in our middle schools anymore, called punitive damages.You see - fair compensation for her actual damages woul;dn't be anywhere near enough to hurt the police department and the local government, and thereby DETER the undesirable behavior that occurred here.Sort of like how suing GM for the price of a defective car that kills somebody is pointless. That's why we have these "punitive damages" - it's a well-established part of our law - as a way of punishing and deterring bad behavior by wealthy, powerful entities. It's a way of levelling the playing field between the little guy and the big guy.It's been part of Anglo-Saxon law since before there was an America - it's not some modern, librul notion.Ever hear of it?

Don't sound American to me.. Aren't wealthy, powerful entities supposed to do whatever they want without fear of repercussion, or else soshulism?

devildog123:50 bucks says these idots were mostly ex-military, and were hired with no other experience or education. The milittarization of civilian law enforcement is a big part of why shiat like this happens. Take a bunch of guys who spent their formative years patrolling Fallujah or the Peshawar Valley, then tell them that experience makes them perfect for a career in law enforcement, and this is what you get. A bunch of ex-grunts who are still out there playing soldier or Marine, but on American streets. Not only shouldn't military service be allowed to replace the education requirements of police departments, they should require vets to have more education, along with a two year "readjustment to civilian life" period before they are allowed to apply to law enforcement agencies.

YixilTesiphon:Jim_Callahan: Driving away from the cops is rarely appropriate, and trying to run OVER the cops pretty unambiguously makes her the party in the wrong here, unless they failed to identify as police or something.

Which is what happened.

in which case, she is still up for attempted vehicular manslaughter... this ain't the movies, folks. if you try and run someone over, the cops will want to talk to you whether they were in front of your car or not.

it gets worse if the person(s?) in front of your car dies...

my take on all this is, if you don't know your vehicle is equipped with a horn, know how to plant your elbow in it while dialling 911 after you take your selfie of "harrassed by fake cops getting tri-delt supplies... #mixers #yolo" you deserve whatever you get.

^ This. Cops arrest people all the time for no reason besides not getting enough respect, or the civilian is too dark, or they just plain don't like you. Every arrest for resisting arrest falls into this category.

The cops should be sued often, hard, and until it hurts enough for them to stop being complete assholes. And this whole "police union" crap is absurd.

Agree with everything except the blanket absolute I bolded. There are many times where resisting and attempting to flee are done by actual criminals. If you were implying that that's the only cause of arrest or suspicion at all, I'd even agree, but that's not necessarily evident.

It does imply they were going to arrest her regardless, but that's an argument borne of pure belief, too obviously ridiculous to really argue.

That's the difference between your post and more simple minded anti-authoritarian cop-haters in the thread. You do seem to recognize that there are legit ones, and that the profession at large is somewhat necessary.

Point is, there are plenty of cases, entirely too many, where cops ARE complete assholes, even criminal, and this is not the one to champion to get them to rectify their behavior. This case boils down to a fluke of just perfectly the wrong kinds of actions. 99.9% of the time, nothing would come from it, but due to her panic, it blew up.

/anyhow, off to work, so flame on and count your "wins" while I'm gone, haters//facts won't work on the actual haters anyhow, so vehement in their zealotry

Call it cop hate all you want. A simple glance at the headlines would be all a normal person needs to see. To be able to know that should you see the cops coming it's best to hide somewhere. Hopefully you had time to hide your dog to.

Cville reporting in. Its was an ABC "raid" of sorts, which mean there was ONE official full time ABC officer and six or so "deputized" bubbas from green county or whatever. They stormed her car at night in a total show of force, guns etc. Her passenger freaked, told her to bail and she did. SHE called the cops / 911 immediately (2 blocks IIRC), and it was only after the dust settled and the actual cops realized how bad the bubbas farked up that she was thrown in jail for felonious assault of an officer.

And as context, this area has had multiple rapists posing as officers pulling people over causing harm. There have been multiple public service spots around teaching women to NOT pull over until they are around other people or are sure of the situation, and cops are supposed respect that. I guess bubbas didnt get that message. Add on top of that all our unsolved missing teen girl cases and I see where this chick was coming from.

Cville reporting in. Its was an ABC "raid" of sorts, which mean there was ONE official full time ABC officer and six or so "deputized" bubbas from green county or whatever. They stormed her car at night in a total show of force, guns etc. Her passenger freaked, told her to bail and she did. SHE called the cops / 911 immediately (2 blocks IIRC), and it was only after the dust settled and the actual cops realized how bad the bubbas farked up that she was thrown in jail for felonious assault of an officer.

And as context, this area has had multiple rapists posing as officers pulling people over causing harm. There have been multiple public service spots around teaching women to NOT pull over until they are around other people or are sure of the situation, and cops are supposed respect that. I guess bubbas didnt get that message. Add on top of that all our unsolved missing teen girl cases and I see where this chick was coming from.

She's obviously not going to get forty mil, but hopefully she'll get enough that the ABC guys maybe think twice the next time they want to swarm a group of women at night in a parking lot playing "Bubba's first sting."

Jim_Callahan:thecactusman17: Wait, wait, wait. Instead of showing them bottled water she attempted to flee the scene and hit multiple cops? She should be grateful she wasn't shot to death by the officers for assault with a deadly weapon. Lucky batch should quit while she's ahead.

This. Driving away from the cops is rarely appropriate, and trying to run OVER the cops pretty unambiguously makes her the party in the wrong here, unless they failed to identify as police or something.

They did NOT identify themselves as police. They were wearing plainclothes.

I want you to picture this: You have a 20 year old daughter. It's late at night, she just exited a grocery store. Seven men in normal clothes rush up and grab her. Is it logical to assume

A: "These are police officers."B: "These are the bad guys and need to die."

Cville reporting in. Its was an ABC "raid" of sorts, which mean there was ONE official full time ABC officer and six or so "deputized" bubbas from green county or whatever. They stormed her car at night in a total show of force, guns etc. Her passenger freaked, told her to bail and she did. SHE called the cops / 911 immediately (2 blocks IIRC), and it was only after the dust settled and the actual cops realized how bad the bubbas farked up that she was thrown in jail for felonious assault of an officer.

And as context, this area has had multiple rapists posing as officers pulling people over causing harm. There have been multiple public service spots around teaching women to NOT pull over until they are around other people or are sure of the situation, and cops are supposed respect that. I guess bubbas didnt get that message. Add on top of that all our unsolved missing teen girl cases and I see where this chick was coming from.

What a stupid biatch, that dumb sorostitute was startled by multiple people banging on her window at night some with guns drawn, how pathetic.

/btw she tossed her phone to her friend to call 911

sorostitute is not a word, i wasn't even headed in THAT direction. i know that "frat boys" would have "bottled water and cookie dough" as the next "2g1c" viral, and more power to 'em...

/btw, it sounds like, no, she didn't just put her car into lockdown and call 911... this area had someone with a gumball machine attempting to pull lone women over as well... this is nowhere close to that situation on any count. this is why the second amendment about an armed militia gets flak.//sounds like a bunch of lil' zimmies.///"drink"="take your best shot"?

Securitywyrm:Jim_Callahan: thecactusman17: Wait, wait, wait. Instead of showing them bottled water she attempted to flee the scene and hit multiple cops? She should be grateful she wasn't shot to death by the officers for assault with a deadly weapon. Lucky batch should quit while she's ahead.

This. Driving away from the cops is rarely appropriate, and trying to run OVER the cops pretty unambiguously makes her the party in the wrong here, unless they failed to identify as police or something.

They did NOT identify themselves as police. They were wearing plainclothes.

I want you to picture this: You have a 20 year old daughter. It's late at night, she just exited a grocery store. Seven men in normal clothes rush up and grab her. Is it logical to assume

A: "These are police officers."B: "These are the bad guys and need to die."

i want you to picture this: you are nowhere near the scene.

i'm not saying SHE should not view being grabbed by seven men as an assault on her person, but i'm willing to say YOU are deliberately putting "daddy's little girl" in a situation that wasn't happening...

The enforcement wing of the ABC is not that large, so when they do raids / sting ops or whatever, they bring in "deputies", which as near as I can figure is "a bunch of the agent's rambo friends. Now I don't care where you're from, when I say 'Bubbas from rural Greene Co VA', the picture that gets painted in your head is most likely not far from the truth. These guys, if they have any training at all, its at the Marriot Conference room C over a long saturday. They are probably wearing 'tactical socks' that they bought on line. They scare me even when I am not being bum rushed by them at night. They live for this shiat, so when they get a chance to shoot their wad, they go for it.

Virginia has the weirdest relationship with alcohol. The laws are so cryptic and weird and complicated, and yet, everyone here is soused 24/7 it seems.

SurfaceTension:When all you have is a hammer (in this case, training to aggressively pursue and apprehend criminals), everything you see looks like a nail (or in this case, a criminal). I hope she wins.

cynicalminion:YixilTesiphon: Jim_Callahan: Driving away from the cops is rarely appropriate, and trying to run OVER the cops pretty unambiguously makes her the party in the wrong here, unless they failed to identify as police or something.

Which is what happened.

in which case, she is still up for attempted vehicular manslaughter... this ain't the movies, folks. if you try and run someone over, the cops will want to talk to you whether they were in front of your car or not.

it gets worse if the person(s?) in front of your car dies...

my take on all this is, if you don't know your vehicle is equipped with a horn, know how to plant your elbow in it while dialling 911 after you take your selfie of "harrassed by fake cops getting tri-delt supplies... #mixers #yolo" you deserve whatever you get.

They did not identify as police.

They were brandishing guns.

She had the reasonable belief that her life was in danger, and had the right to use deadly force in self defense. She didn't have a gun, she had a car. Running them over and killing them would have been justifiable self defense.

Sadly, when I heard "20 year old UVA student" I had to check TFA to make sure it wasn't a chick I dated when she was 18-19 (I was 25) who turned all stalkerish. It lasted 2 months, and it was over a year ago, and I still get drunk texts that I don't reply to.

She walks out of the store, several plain clothes ABC agents descend on her, don't ID themselves, she runs, gets to car, slams it in gear, goes, clips two in the process before one of them thinks to produce a badge and ID.

Yes, and no. While I know several police officers, and they are generally good people. It's not them but the institution which is becoming systemically corrupt. In allowing itself to profit from the proceeds of its actions, in unison with laws allowing it to charge inanimate objects with "crimes" (which puts the burden of proof on proving innocence rather than on proving guilt,) it has shed the pretense of dispensing justice, and chose to inhabit the very domain of Organized Crime.

cynicalminion:YixilTesiphon: Jim_Callahan: Driving away from the cops is rarely appropriate, and trying to run OVER the cops pretty unambiguously makes her the party in the wrong here, unless they failed to identify as police or something.

Which is what happened.

in which case, she is still up for attempted vehicular manslaughter... this ain't the movies, folks. if you try and run someone over, the cops will want to talk to you whether they were in front of your car or not.

it gets worse if the person(s?) in front of your car dies...

my take on all this is, if you don't know your vehicle is equipped with a horn, know how to plant your elbow in it while dialling 911 after you take your selfie of "harrassed by fake cops getting tri-delt supplies... #mixers #yolo" you deserve whatever you get.

Problem is, it's sometimes a chickenshiat charge. Happened to a cousin of mine years ago, he was pulling into a parking space in Boston, and a cop on traffic detail, yakking on his cellphone, absentmindedly steps backwards off the curb right in front of him. Cousin jams on his brakes, doesn't even hit him, but the cop freaks out, charges him with ABDW (assault and battery with a deadly weapon).

Yeah, cousin's attorney got it tossed in record time, but cousin still had to show up in court twice, pay the lawyer, etc, etc, etc.

First, they weren't cops. They were ABC enforcement officers. Why the fark does the ABC even have an enforcement division. Don't we have state police -- who are adequately and properly trained -- to deal with this shiat?

Second, it wasn't a liquor store. It was a grocery store in a large retail shopping center.

Third, this is a town where a kidnapping/rape/murder from a few years ago remains unsolved. Meanwhile, almost every weekend there is an assault on or around UVA's campus. And she had just attended a Take Back the Night program designed to educate people about these very issues.

$40 million is steep, but the problems run deep. I hope she gets every cent.

Thingster:shtychkn: Not enough details in that article for me to make a call.

She walks out of the store, several plain clothes ABC agents descend on her, don't ID themselves, she runs, gets to car, slams it in gear, goes, clips two in the process before one of them thinks to produce a badge and ID.

omeganuepsilon:arentol: She drove away from a half-dozen guys in regular clothes that all pulled out guns and started yelling at her. No badges. No uniforms. Just guns and yelling from multiple sources that made it very hard to understand that they were saying they were police.

False.

They approached her displaying badges. She admits to seeing the badges but not believing that they were real.

She then started her car, a sign most police take as an attempt to flee(which she did) or do something aggressive(which she did when she hit them) and will attempt to stop(which is when they drew guns)

The police didn't fark up. She did indeed panic, but some find that acceptable in our nation of paranoia, hence the charges were dropped.

If pushed, I doubt the case will go anywhere. The alcohol enforcement officers did as their job entails. If she'd not panicked, nothing would have happened. They'd have seen she had water and cookie dough, and they'd have sent her on her way.

You're not even vaguely correct in your statements. The court decided in her favor so far as to expunge everything from her record. Don't feel bad, though - a lot of idiots in this thread are arguing a position already clarified by the legal system: she did nothing wrong.

Thingster:She walks out of the store, several plain clothes ABC agents descend on her, don't ID themselves, she runs, gets to car, slams it in gear, goes, clips two in the process before one of them thinks to produce a badge and ID.

over a case of canned water.

see this is the problem... if they're "deputies", they don't HAVE badges, or IDs, or ANY sort of crap to hang their spiffy little hats on.

seeing that it's "FOLLOWUP" territory, and NOW she's filing suit, i'd be more sympathetic if she were filing harassment charges with the state, rather than going for money. she wasn't hurt, and they're not charging her with trying to run over billy-joe-jim-bob-junior-the-third. so, the settlement here should be competency, not money.

cynicalminion:oh STFU, i said if you don't immediately activate whatever panic-mode feature you have on your car if you're being attacked, you're STUPID, not that she's a whore who deserved to get raped.

Yeah, she locked the door and had her friend call 911, after they tried to break the window she drove away, and she is still stupid in her book.

I said nothing about rape, and you are full of shiat is you are pretending you weren't mocking her for being in a sorority.

cynicalminion:i'm NOT against her defending herself here, but monumental stupidity on their part doesn't automatically make lawbreaking on her part okay.

Driving away when gunmen are trying to break your windo is self defense, you are against her defending yourself.

cynicalminion:and from my perspective it looks like she got hassled for buying skittles and wearing a hoodie

I am sure if armed guys were beating on your car window and yelling at you with guns drawn you could call it "hassled".

Carousel Beast:omeganuepsilon: arentol: She drove away from a half-dozen guys in regular clothes that all pulled out guns and started yelling at her. No badges. No uniforms. Just guns and yelling from multiple sources that made it very hard to understand that they were saying they were police.

False.

They approached her displaying badges. She admits to seeing the badges but not believing that they were real.

She then started her car, a sign most police take as an attempt to flee(which she did) or do something aggressive(which she did when she hit them) and will attempt to stop(which is when they drew guns)

The police didn't fark up. She did indeed panic, but some find that acceptable in our nation of paranoia, hence the charges were dropped.

If pushed, I doubt the case will go anywhere. The alcohol enforcement officers did as their job entails. If she'd not panicked, nothing would have happened. They'd have seen she had water and cookie dough, and they'd have sent her on her way.

You're not even vaguely correct in your statements. The court decided in her favor so far as to expunge everything from her record. Don't feel bad, though - a lot of idiots in this thread are arguing a position already clarified by the legal system: she did nothing wrong.

(re-bolded because)

that's not what's being argued (by me anyway)... it's just that she's now gone lawsuit-happy on folks who are already down to "deputizing bubba" and that almost guarantees that she's making sure what happened to her happens to more people too... and she's getting paid for that.

Tatterdemalian:jso2897: It's this strange, foreign concept we have in our law, but apparently don't teach about in our middle schools anymore, called punitive damages.You see - fair compensation for her actual damages woul;dn't be anywhere near enough to hurt the police department and the local government, and thereby DETER the undesirable behavior that occurred here.Sort of like how suing GM for the price of a defective car that kills somebody is pointless. That's why we have these "punitive damages" - it's a well-established part of our law - as a way of punishing and deterring bad behavior by wealthy, powerful entities. It's a way of levelling the playing field between the little guy and the big guy.It's been part of Anglo-Saxon law since before there was an America - it's not some modern, librul notion.Ever hear of it?

Ever hear of "unintended consequences?"

Because the behavior of the cops in this story is one of them.

/making sure the cops have to be perfect and precognitive or else they will not only suffer for the damage done, but also for punitive damages for their imperfection//somehow I don't think you thought your cunning ideology all the way through

http://www.roanoke.com/news/virginia/u-va-student-sues-state-abc-age nt s-for-million/article_a5e91ce8-b508-11e3-ac72-0017a43b2370.htmlAccording to the suit, Daly and two friends went to a Harris Teeter store in Daly's Chevrolet Trailblazer, arriving shortly before 10 p.m. Among other items purchased by one of Daly's friends was a case of canned LaCroix sparkling water. The women walked into the parking lot, one of them carrying the clearly visible sparkling water.Seven ABC agents were in the parking lot watching for young-looking individuals and checking their identification to ensure no state laws were bring broken. Two agents followed the three to their car.Daly got behind the wheel, one friend sat in the front passenger seat and placed the sparkling water on the floor and the other friend got in the back seat. Before starting the car, Daly saw two people approach the car and begin banging on the windows.The two agents, says the suit, "allegedly displayed their badges hanging from necklaces which at the time and under the circumstances were not clearly visible or readable."The agents warned Daly not to turn on the car, but she and a friend were unable to open the windows using buttons because the car was not running. Other agents ran to the car.The suit alleges that Daly called 911 on her cellphone, which she handed to a friend. The friend told the operator that they could not tell if the agents were real law enforcement officers.Daly "was shaking and saying, 'I don't know what to do!'" One agent suddenly drew a gun, pointing it toward the ground.When an agent tried to break a passenger window with a steel flashlight, Daly drove off with some of the agents chasing on foot. She drove out of the parking lot and stopped at a red light intending to drive to a police station.While at the red light, the 911 operator confirmed to the women that they were real ABC agents, according to the suit.Police arrived on the scene and drove Daly to the police station, where an ABC agent swore out a criminal complaint that led to Daly's arrest over assaulting two agents and over failing to stop when ordered.Daly spent the night in jail and was released the following afternoon. On June 27, the charged were dropped. On Oct. 22, the arrest and court records were expunged."The agents acted with actual malice, out of embarrassment and disgrace for their own intentional and grossly negligent acts and charged [Daly] with three felonies and did so out of anger and personal spite," alleges the suit filed by Richmond lawyers James Thorsen and John Honey.

liam76:cynicalminion: oh STFU, i said if you don't immediately activate whatever panic-mode feature you have on your car if you're being attacked, you're STUPID, not that she's a whore who deserved to get raped.

Yeah, she locked the door and had her friend call 911, after they tried to break the window she drove away, and she is still stupid in her book.

I said nothing about rape, and you are full of shiat is you are pretending you weren't mocking her for being in a sorority.

cynicalminion: i'm NOT against her defending herself here, but monumental stupidity on their part doesn't automatically make lawbreaking on her part okay.

Driving away when gunmen are trying to break your windo is self defense, you are against her defending yourself.

cynicalminion: and from my perspective it looks like she got hassled for buying skittles and wearing a hoodie

I am sure if armed guys were beating on your car window and yelling at you with guns drawn you could call it "hassled".

cynicalminion:and that almost guarantees that she's making sure what happened to her happens to more people too... and she's getting paid for that.

I'm pretty sure this specific case is causing a state level review of ABC enforcement efforts. Not sure it will amount to anything, but at least some higher ups are now publicly aware that there are some serious problems as things are now.

SwingingJohnson:shtychkn: Not enough details in that article for me to make a call.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/virginia/u-va-student-sues-state-abc-age nt s-for-million/article_a5e91ce8-b508-11e3-ac72-0017a43b2370.htmlAccording to the suit, Daly and two friends went to a Harris Teeter store in Daly's Chevrolet Trailblazer, arriving shortly before 10 p.m. Among other items purchased by one of Daly's friends was a case of canned LaCroix sparkling water. The women walked into the parking lot, one of them carrying the clearly visible sparkling water.Seven ABC agents were in the parking lot watching for young-looking individuals and checking their identification to ensure no state laws were bring broken. Two agents followed the three to their car.Daly got behind the wheel, one friend sat in the front passenger seat and placed the sparkling water on the floor and the other friend got in the back seat. Before starting the car, Daly saw two people approach the car and begin banging on the windows.The two agents, says the suit, "allegedly displayed their badges hanging from necklaces which at the time and under the circumstances were not clearly visible or readable."The agents warned Daly not to turn on the car, but she and a friend were unable to open the windows using buttons because the car was not running. Other agents ran to the car.The suit alleges that Daly called 911 on her cellphone, which she handed to a friend. The friend told the operator that they could not tell if the agents were real law enforcement officers.Daly "was shaking and saying, 'I don't know what to do!'" One agent suddenly drew a gun, pointing it toward the ground.When an agent tried to break a passenger window with a steel flashlight, Daly drove off with some of the agents chasing on foot. She drove out of the parking lot and stopped at a red light intending to drive to a police station.While at the red light, the 911 operator confirmed to the women that they were real ABC agents, according to the suit. ...

i don't even have a farking license and i still know you do not have to START the car to use the battery power.

alizeran:cynicalminion: and that almost guarantees that she's making sure what happened to her happens to more people too... and she's getting paid for that.

[img.fark.net image 252x461]

I'm pretty sure this specific case is causing a state level review of ABC enforcement efforts. Not sure it will amount to anything, but at least some higher ups are now publicly aware that there are some serious problems as things are now.

alizeran:The enforcement wing of the ABC is not that large, so when they do raids / sting ops or whatever, they bring in "deputies", which as near as I can figure is "a bunch of the agent's rambo friends. Now I don't care where you're from, when I say 'Bubbas from rural Greene Co VA', the picture that gets painted in your head is most likely not far from the truth. These guys, if they have any training at all, its at the Marriot Conference room C over a long saturday. They are probably wearing 'tactical socks' that they bought on line. They scare me even when I am not being bum rushed by them at night. They live for this shiat, so when they get a chance to shoot their wad, they go for it.

Virginia has the weirdest relationship with alcohol. The laws are so cryptic and weird and complicated, and yet, everyone here is soused 24/7 it seems.

Soused is not a VA thing; according to a liquor distributor bud, CVille is off the charts as far as liquor consumption goes.