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«In art as in science there is no delight without the detail ... Let me repeat that unless these are thoroughly understood and remembered, all “general ideas” (so easily acquired, so profitably resold) must necessarily remain but worn passports allowing their bearers short cuts from one area of ignorance to another.» Vladimir Nabokov, commentary on translation of “Eugene Onegin.”

Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephantAnonymous-The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuineWinston Churchill, 1944-I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.Me, all the time

You're talking about Boris Johnson and his choice to speak out against the EU?

I have nothing against British people, don't get me wrong, but you guys didn't play along with the EU from the beginning (Still using pound instead of euro to name one thing). And I always doubted the commitment of the British government. (they where more like the chicken[^] )

Now it looks like you want out. But I wonder why? Do you prefer to be on your own? I'm convinced the EU should be even closer/stronger together instead of divided (which it is now, hence the current trouble) so I hope your choice doesn't affect the EU in such a way it will fall.

Most British people don't want out. Most don't care. The Scots want to stay, the Irish want to stay, the Welsh want to stay, the English are very much split on the idea.

I don't like referenda, I don't like the idea that uninformed people will be making important decisions. That is why we have a representative democracy, so that we can elect a government of informed people to make important decisions. Doesn't mean they'll make good decisions, but at least they should be making informed ones.

The vast majority of those voting to leave will do so because they have an aversion to immigrants and foreigners telling them what to do, both things that have been hyped by our media for years. The vast majority of those voting to stay will do so because they have an aversion to change. A minuscule minority will attempt to look at the information available (there will only be a tiny subset of what is needed) and make an informed decision on what is best for the future of the country. Around 5 people will actually understand enough to make a properly informed decision.

And of course personalities, people cannot cope with thinking so they need a nice marketing buzzword like Brexit to get behind, and celebrities who they recognise.

Boris may be a dangerous, conniving, self-serving shitehawk, but he has very carefully created a public character for himself as a lovable, bumbling buffoon who is good to laugh and completely harmless.

Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.

I don't like referenda, I don't like the idea that uninformed people will be making important decisions.

Agree totally, this is why I didn't believe in voting for a very long time.

chriselst wrote:

That is why we have a representative democracy, so that we can elect a government of informed people to make important decisions.

Except you can't trust Cameron to do this. He was always going to vote to stay in however bad the 'deal' he got was, despite saying the opposite. Look at Blair. It might have been true in the past that the elected did what was best for the Country but now they just do what's best for themselves.

chriselst wrote:

because they have an aversion to immigrants and foreigners telling them what to do, both things that have been hyped by our media for years.

The immigration thing I have seen with my own eyes. One of the main reasons I moved out of Portsmouth is it totally unrecognisible to the one I grew up in. Now I have moved I don't have 1 hour waits in the Doctors surgery and every kid in my sons class can speak English, so the teacher can give him more time.

chriselst wrote:

Boris may be a dangerous, conniving, self-serving shitehawk, but he has very carefully created a public character for himself as a lovable, bumbling buffoon who is good to laugh and completely harmless.

The immigration thing I have seen with my own eyes. One of the main reasons I moved out of Portsmouth is it totally unrecognisible to the one I grew up in. Now I have moved I don't have 1 hour waits in the Doctors surgery

I live in one of the whitest, most English middle class places in the country, the only immigrants in the doctor's surgery are the doctors (I was at school with one of them, lovely Bangladeshi lad, his father still runs a local curry house) yet 1 hour waits are the norm there too.

Decided to move the rest to the Soapbox thread.

Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.

Again, not wanting to fall foul of the politics thing, let's remember that the people who voted to join back in the 70s, voted to join a Common Market, not a European Union. The pound/Euro thing was tried unsuccessfully back in the 70s through to the early 90s with a common Exchange Rate Mechanism (the UK joined in 1990), with the UK spectactularly crashing out of it on Black Wednesday when currency speculators bet heavily against the pound.

However, I will also add that my comment above does not represent my views on Europe (or most of the professionals that I know here in the UK). I have worked in other countries in the EU and I have enjoyed working there. I have always found the people to be decent and welcoming and I have no problem with the EU. The important thing to remember is that what you hear is just noise - the UK press have entered into a feedback cycle that, unfortunately, will last until June. The important thing here, in the UK, is that we have to actually consider what's best not just for us, but for future generations. I fear this responsibility will not be used wisely.