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I would say internal is the ability to naturally use the body. To issue great power effortlessly, and move in a coordinated rhythmic fashion.

What do you call internal?

Well, the ability to "naturally use the body" is kind of vague.
The way you generate power using internal mechanics goes almost contrary to common sense, or what we feel as "power", so it's not a very good description.

"Moving in a coordinated rhythmic fasion" has nothing to do with it either. Unless you can describe it in more detail.

Generally accepted masters?
I dunno, off the top my head... Sam Chin, Any of the top chen guys Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Zheng Lei, Ushiro Kenji to name a few.
Ark can turn a couple heads here and there with what he can do, in fact he might be doing a seminar sometime in the west coast, we'd love to have you

Quote:

Chris Hein wrote:

Dan,
1. Yes ALL top level athletes have great internal ability, that's why they are top level athletes.

I totally disagree, having rolled with top athletes myself, and people with good internal skills. I agree with Dan on this point, you can have great internal skills and suck at fighting, or you can be a great athlete/fighter and have squat for internal skills.

Quote:

Chris Hein wrote:

3. I don't think it's at all hard to get (if you are comfortable with your body), and I don't know why everyone keeps harping on it.

If you mean that it's not hard to get physically, or mentally, then maybe you're within the top .0001 percent whose body was formulated that way from birth. Something I highly doubt.
(If you popped out of your mom's womb with a physique like the Aun statues, well let me know what her diet was )

For the rest of us, it's not something that is easy to get. The musculature has to change, as is the way you move fubdamentally. It requires a lot of fundamental training to rewire and rebuild certain things in the body.

I haven't found anyone that can do internal skills disagree with me on that account yet. Oh, or the fact that the skills are "something more" that have to be shown.

Quote:

Chris Hein wrote:

I only mentioned my teacher because I always thought it was funny that everyone goes around acting like internal power was the holy grail, and he (a noted internal martial artist) said you could get it from doing judo.

If that were true then maybe you could answer why experienced Judo guys over here in Japan get stumped when they can't break my balance and throw me? Even if I stand there and let them.

Chris
Is the opinion that -Baseball and tennis players express great internal skills-a view of Tim's or your own?
Asn since they are not mysterious and widely known, care to elucidate on your understanding of specifics? Many here would like to know what they can glean from something ordinary around them.

A big issue is that many, if not most folks, have not had the experience of training with anyone who has these skills in a very developed way. So they simply don't know what Robert is talking about.

Years ago, Saotome Sensei, who is about 135 lbs., was doing some jo nage at a demo. His uke was a young guy fresh out of college who had played football there. He was literally twice Sensei's size and absolutely in peak condition. Sensei at one point made an error and dropped the jo.... we were always told to attack and hold nothing back in that kind of situation so my friend charged Sensei with the intention of grabbing him and breaking his balance. A former teammate of my friend was watching and later said that Sensei saw the uke coming and simply went into hanmi whereupon my friend simply bounced off him and fell down.

What allows Vladimir Vasiliev to hit you with strike that looks like nothing and put you in the ground? Or Ushiro Kenji to change the stability of your structure by how he touches you with his attention? What allows someone like Kuroda Sensei or Angier Sensei to drop you and you don't feel them doing anything? I am over 300 lbs and these guys, less than half my size, can do this.

The first step in trying to raise the quality level in Aikido is to have people see and preferably feel what internal power feels like. Most aikido one sees around is basically based on efficient movement principles and application of force against weak lines of the body. I could stop technique done in that manner even before I started doing any training that wound be construed as "internal".

It's not that these skills are absent within the Aikido community, it's that the small number who have some level of this skill are very small and as much of the discussion on the forum has pointed out, even the ones who do have something haven't figured out how to pass it on. That's why someone like Ikeda Sensei, who is Saotome Sensei's top student, is so excited about training with Ushiro Kenji Sensei. Ushiro Sensei has a systematic way of explaining and teaching these principles. Ushiro Sensei has allowed Ikeda Sensei and some of the others training with Saotome Sensei to start understanding just what it's been that Sensei had that we couldn't quite figure out. Saotome Sensei simply didn't have a vocabulary to describe it.

There are varying aspects of these skills as well. There is the aspect of how one uses ones attention (or ki, or whatever) to effect the opponent / partner. Ushiro Sensei's teaching focuses on this a great deal. I felt it for years from saotome sensei but didn't quite get what he was doing.
There is the aspect of neutralizing the opponent / partner's power on contact, which would be something that Yamaguichi Sensei used to focus on. You can really see this with teachers like Endo Sensei or Kuroda Sensei, or even with the top Systema guys. The there is the aspect of power release. Saotome Sensei has this more than any Aikido teacher in the States I have seen although Ikeda Sensei is close and getting better. But generally, this would be the aspect that I think is least developed in the Aikido folks I have seen and even the guys in Aikido who are the best at it haven't developed the skills to the limit. Some of the old guys had it, I haven't see it passed on to their students. Whereas you can see it in the top Chinese practitioners. I have felt it myself in my short exposure to what Mike Sigman teaches and it's quite extraordinary. I think it is this aspect especially that requires the kind of solo practice that Dan, Rob and Mike have been talking about.

This is why it is so important to get out and see what is out there (and why some teachers may not want you to). Most folks simply have no experience of what really high skill is. You can see this in these discussions when folks start talking at cross purposes because they simply aren't talking about the same things.

You can see this in these discussions when folks start talking at cross purposes because they simply aren't talking about the same things.

True.

Not knowing what we do not know is the peak of ignorance because we see no need to open ourselves to new ideas, hence at this point we have no ability to learn . At least when we know what we do not know we are open to learning and our ignorance can be fixed with diligent study, research and effort.

A former teammate of my friend was watching and later said that Sensei saw the uke coming and simply went into hanmi whereupon my friend simply bounced off him and fell down.

What allows Vladimir Vasiliev to hit you with strike that looks like nothing and put you in the ground? Or Ushiro Kenji to change the stability of your structure by how he touches you with his attention? What allows someone like Kuroda Sensei or Angier Sensei to drop you and you don't feel them doing anything? I am over 300 lbs and these guys, less than half my size, can do this.

I would argue that all of those things are just different ways of using the same thing. Hitting, as in your example with Vlad, is somewhat a part of the same thing, although I'd have to point out that in my experience with hitters, quite a lot the good ones learn to put their dantien in their fist, etc., even though that doesn't necessarily mean they can apply that narrow aspect in anything else they do.

But the point I'm trying to make is that it's all the same thing and you begin to see that, after one's practice develops the normal perspective.

George and Mark
In either case the change will be slow. George's admonition to get out and feel is step one. And that requires someone, preferably more than one- who is worth going to meet and feel. Step two is probably more important. After you are satisfied that you have met someone with demonstrable skills. Ask to meet his students!!

Murray and Ron made a rather surprising but eye opening statement after dinner with us. They said their hope wasn't in me. They were prepared to meet yet another person with skills. But so what? We've all felt guys who were amazing or told were amazing blah blah blah.
Their hope was in my young guys who could not only do-but teach it. Murray commented in -the internal power in your aikido thread- that is was a sure sign that it can be taught and learned. I've had my full of guys who can't or won't teach. "So and so is great but they don't know what they're doing or can't explain it."
At some point you just have to stop caring. Good on them, what about you?
Then you have guys who are just starting to train this stuff and are now "teaching others" what they barely know!! Now their students are going to all run down a half baked trail. I'm trying to stay small. I opened the doors for the first time in my life and I am hoping for guys like us who just do the work and stay away from, and don't feel the pull or the "need" to teach.

Its probably safe to say we are going to run into this stuff being practiced half-assed like everything else we touch. And in the fullness of time even this will suck like most everything else we do.
Again I'm keeping my eye out for those interested in research in several places, to put together and maintain something that remains exceptional. Even the small amount of men now training with me weekly are having doubts about showing anyone for along while. They seem to have a good sense of propriety and respect for others they can lead astray.
In short it can be good days ahead-or more of the same.

I would argue that all of those things are just different ways of using the same thing. Hitting, as in your example with Vlad, is somewhat a part of the same thing, although I'd have to point out that in my experience with hitters, quite a lot the good ones learn to put their dantien in their fist, etc., even though that doesn't necessarily mean they can apply that narrow aspect in anything else they do.

But the point I'm trying to make is that it's all the same thing and you begin to see that, after one's practice develops the normal perspective.

Best.

Mike

I believe you are right... but its interesting how, as Ellis has pointed out in his writings, the different cultural considerations give these things different outward form. The Systema guys don't look like any martial art I have seen anywhere despite the fact that I think you are right that the internal skill development is the same. Takeda Sensei and O-Sensei didn't look like the Chinese teachers yet it seems obvious that the source for the internal power aspect was China.

I think that this is one of the things which makes it hard for Aikido people to look at one of the Chinese practitioners or someone like Vladimir Vasiliyev and to envision what those skills would look like in an Aikido context...

The Systema guys don't look like any martial art I have seen anywhere despite the fact that I think you are right that the internal skill development is the same.

Just to be clear about good hitting with a fist, for example. I've been hit by a lot of boxers, even one heavyweight contender. They can hit amazingly hard, even when they "do it lightly". But they've practiced hitting so long that certain basic elements of a good hit, such as including the body mass in the hit, show up in many of the practitioners' hits. It's ONE of the same major components of internal skills, although it's not all of them. But that being said, the major demonstrations of good "internal" skills are based on the refinements and permutations of only one or two core principles.

Many thanks to the various sensei who have added their input to this thread.

Is everyone here saying that Ki-society techniques haven't actually got the internal development factor? If so then... what Koichi Tohei tried to do in teaching shin-shin toitsu... was a failure?

I'm terribly confused. It's like being in a forest, and everyone keeps pointing to these few distant peaks, high level sensei and chinese masters... but when I ask a straightforward question like "I have two paths in front of me, ki-aikido and taiji, will either or both of these take me 1/3 of the way up the mountain" ... nobody wants to answer the question.

George's admonition to get out and feel is step one. And that requires someone, preferably more than one- who is worth going to meet and feel. Step two is probably more important. After you are satisfied that you have met someone with demonstrable skills. Ask to meet his students!!

I think that's a good start, Dan. I'd also suggest that people go meet some world-class expert like Li Tai Liang, Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Bing, etc., in order to get a feel of what someone with real skills *feels* like when they move, what they can do, etc. I would have named some Aikido guys in the above examples, but I frankly haven't felt any of them for a few years, so I'll defer until I'm exactly sure about who I'm recommending.

It's very easy to stop too soon with the first guy(s) that can "show you something good", kick your butt, who have great "lineage", etc., so the point I'd make is to keep looking around. That's how everyone does it.... always keep looking.

I have a couple of friends who studied on Taiwan for about 12 or so years with Hong Yi Xiang and others and based on their "credentials", etc., you'd think they would be someone you could go learn internal skills from. Unfortunately, they didn't really learn these skills because Hong had to save face with his martial-arts brothers on Taiwan so he loudly assured the members of the Taiwanese martial-arts association that he was not showing the good stuff to the foreigners. I learned this from a Chinese friend of mine who grew up on Taiwan. The point being..... you can't trust anyone to know everything they should know, so you need to keep looking for information from *all* sources. And constantly question yourself about what you know and believe. That's the hallmark of the real seekers.... and seekers always go further than "believers", IME.

Is everyone here saying that Ki-society techniques haven't actually got the internal development factor? If so then... what Koichi Tohei tried to do in teaching shin-shin toitsu... was a failure?

I'm terribly confused. It's like being in a forest, and everyone keeps pointing to these few distant peaks, high level sensei and chinese masters... but when I ask a straightforward question like "I have two paths in front of me, ki-aikido and taiji, will either or both of these take me 1/3 of the way up the mountain" ... nobody wants to answer the question.

Go with the Ki-Aikido. It's going to depend on the teacher's abilities, but my experience would be that you have a greater chance of getting *something* from the Ki Aikido teacher than you would from most "Tai Chi Teachers".

Ki-Aikido has now become something slightly different than O-Sensei's Aikido, but *some* of the practitioners are definitely performing what I would call acceptable ki skills (but they can do better!!! ).

Ki-Aikido has now become something slightly different than O-Sensei's Aikido, but *some* of the practitioners are definitely performing what I would call acceptable ki skills (but they can do better!!! ).

My opinion.

Mike

Lol, how gracious of you to point that out Mike I do think similarly to you that Ki Aikido isn't Ueshiba's aiki though. Tohei Sensei himself said he only kept maybe 30% of the waza so it's bound to 'look' different, and if you watch Tohei move and watch film of Ueshiba, sure enough, looks the same but different. Though as has been said elsewhere internal skills will look different depending on which cup you pour them into. Pour them into a Daito Ryu cup you get Daito Ryu, Aikido you get aikido, systema, tai chi etc. Pour them into a cup which isn't in such good shape and they leak out the sides....

IMO, based on limited exposure to Tai Chi (compared with my aikido that is), the teaching methods for Ki aikido are specifically designed for passing this stuff on, whereas as Mike said, it can be a bit more haphazard in Tai Chi and hugely depends on your teacher. At the very least going and studying ki aikido for a while would give you some greater appreciation of what to look for if you then wanted to shop around at a later date. For example, when you're giving a ki test (an important part of learning how to use ki) after a while it becomes apparent whether the person will pass or fail before you touch them. I can usually look at my students before I even attempt the test and see that they won't pass it, and when I do perform the test I'm almost always correct in my assessment (it's nice to be surprised though!). That's a useful skill to have if you're gonna go shopping for someone who can teach 'internal stuff'

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

1. Yes ALL top level athletes have great internal ability, that's why they are top level athletes.

I don't think you are talking about the same thing that people are talking about.

I have had some top level professional athletes (football and basketball) including a multi time league MVP in my school and their knowledge of internal skills was just about zero. What they did have was a great sense of discipline, an intense competitive nature, and a pure physicality about them. Otherwise they were complete beginners in terms of ki development or internal stuff in general.

Lol, how gracious of you to point that out Mike I do think similarly to you that Ki Aikido isn't Ueshiba's aiki though. Tohei Sensei himself said he only kept maybe 30% of the waza so it's bound to 'look' different, and if you watch Tohei move and watch film of Ueshiba, sure enough, looks the same but different. Though as has been said elsewhere internal skills will look different depending on which cup you pour them into. Pour them into a Daito Ryu cup you get Daito Ryu, Aikido you get aikido, systema, tai chi etc. Pour them into a cup which isn't in such good shape and they leak out the sides....

IMO, based on limited exposure to Tai Chi (compared with my aikido that is), the teaching methods for Ki aikido are specifically designed for passing this stuff on, whereas as Mike said, it can be a bit more haphazard in Tai Chi and hugely depends on your teacher. At the very least going and studying ki aikido for a while would give you some greater appreciation of what to look for if you then wanted to shop around at a later date. For example, when you're giving a ki test (an important part of learning how to use ki) after a while it becomes apparent whether the person will pass or fail before you touch them. I can usually look at my students before I even attempt the test and see that they won't pass it, and when I do perform the test I'm almost always correct in my assessment (it's nice to be surprised though!). That's a useful skill to have if you're gonna go shopping for someone who can teach 'internal stuff'

I don't particularly disagree with the above. My only comment was that probability (IME) says that Howard has a better chance to get what he's asking for in Ki-Aikido. I like Ki-Aikido. My only problem is that I think it stays at a basic level too much and never goes very far. My objection to that is based on the fact that I tend to *like* Ki-Aikido and therefore I may be expecting too much from it.

1. Yes ALL top level athletes have great internal ability, that's why they are top level athletes.

I don't think you are talking about the same thing that people are talking about.

I'm not pointing at Chris Hein but trying to make a general point that Craig is highlighting. Once someone understands the essence of yi/intent (the "Divine Mind" as translated in O-Sensei's douka) in the use of ki/kokyu skills, there would be no way to think that top-level athletes would have "internal ability". It tells you right away that the conversation is, as Craig pointed out, about something quite different. It's what Dan and others have pointed out about many posts in the past.... you can tell by what someone posts pretty much what they know about the topic.

None of these conversations is going to be resolved in the hoped-for friendly manner until people get out and meet others. All the guys I know who are keenly into these things get out and meet; if it's productive they pursue; not productive, they move on. I've spent a lot of time and money "going to see" in my life.... but I recommend it as the best way to learn and the best way to avoid pissing contests on the internet.

Is it for long life and health? If so, don't you think people who live athletic lifestyles will live longer and be healthier?

Is it about using the body to maximum efficiency? If so don't you think that the multibillion dollar industry that is the NFL has their guys at maximum efficiency?

Honestly if what you guys think you are doing is so different and so powerful, why wouldn't top level athletes be doing it?

I'm not saying that what you are doing doesn't work. and I'm not saying it's not good. I'm just saying it's not unique, and not that uncommon.

However if you guys are talking about special tricks of leverage, and special little chi/ki "tests". And some breathing exercises and making chi circle your dan tien. Then no, top level athletes probably don't do/know those things. They probably don't know them because there are more clear and effective ways to gain the same things you are gaining.

Is it for long life and health? If so, don't you think people who live athletic lifestyles will live longer and be healthier?

Is it about using the body to maximum efficiency? If so don't you think that the multibillion dollar industry that is the NFL has their guys at maximum efficiency?

Honestly if what you guys think you are doing is so different and so powerful, why wouldn't top level athletes be doing it?

I'm not saying that what you are doing doesn't work. and I'm not saying it's not good. I'm just saying it's not unique, and not that uncommon.

However if you guys are talking about special tricks of leverage, and special little chi/ki "tests". And some breathing exercises and making chi circle your dan tien. Then no, top level athletes probably don't do/know those things. They probably don't know them because there are more clear and effective ways to gain the same things you are gaining.

Some of this stuff has been taught to pro athletes before, someone else posted an article earlier about Tohei and japanese baseball, and Arsenio Advincula was hiredas a body mechanics/defensive line coach and taught the chargers the Okinawan interpretation of these skills for about 7 years. (They went to the superbowl his final year, then fired him and didnt go back for ~10 years.) Advincula said that the guys who started to "get it" had longer careers than those who didn't. He gave examples of people who did at one of his seminars, but I forgot the names.

There is a difference between muscular power and what people refer to as internal or qi power, however it has to really be felt to be appreciated. In my own experiences, people vastly overestimate the amount of bodyweight as well has stability that they are using in any sort of technique.

I'm not saying that what you are doing doesn't work. and I'm not saying it's not good. I'm just saying it's not unique, and not that uncommon.

However if you guys are talking about special tricks of leverage, and special little chi/ki "tests". And some breathing exercises and making chi circle your dan tien. Then no, top level athletes probably don't do/know those things. They probably don't know them because there are more clear and effective ways to gain the same things you are gaining.

Heh. Logically, if these things are not unique and not that uncommon, then you can do them? But you don't seem to know what they are, so it's a conundrum.

Actually, from watching a clip on some of the upcoming Chinese weight-lifters and some of the gymnasts being prepped for the Olympics, I suspect you're going to see some elements of these things in the Chinese Olympics teams. Personally, I think some of their athletes have already been trained with some of the aspects.

A couple of people who are Aikido teachers went to see what Dan can do in terms of jin skills and wrote fairly favorable reviews that it involved things they hadn't encountered before. Perhaps if you went to see Dan or Ushiro and asked to see/feel it would be worth your time. Then again... maybe none of these guys has your experience and skills.... but logically that means the skills must be unique and uncommon in some way. Hmmmmmmmm.....

I have it on good account that the Chinese gymnasts (at least during the 90s) did some kind of iron body training , so that they could take falls on to hardwood floors.

Someone I know watched them train and said she thought it was "frightening" and that the gymnasts trained very hard. She herself had competed at a high level and was trained seriously, so I think she was in a good position to evaluate the level of intensity. My friend told me that she had never seen anything like it.

Ki-Aikido has now become something slightly different than O-Sensei's Aikido, but *some* of the practitioners are definitely performing what I would call acceptable ki skills (but they can do better!!! ).
My opinion.

That's awesome, exactly the info I'm looking for! Thanks so much for your help here and in the emails.

Quote:

Mike Haft wrote:

IMO, based on limited exposure to Tai Chi (compared with my aikido that is), the teaching methods for Ki aikido are specifically designed for passing this stuff on, whereas as Mike said, it can be a bit more haphazard in Tai Chi and hugely depends on your teacher

Thank you Mike Haft for your help and comments!

Yes, that's exactly the feeling I got from having studied with two taiji instructors... in all arts you're at the mercy of the instructor, but in taiji it's more extreme, like if they're not strongly motivated to get you somewhere, you're definitely not going anywhere no matter how much you practice (unless you're some kind of natural body-genius, which I'm not). Whereas Ki-aikido is systemized and has its own teaching quality control and a uniform, standardized way to referring to exercises, applications and concepts, a way for students to get feedback on their own progress, and most importantly, to my mind, a organization-wide ethic of genuinely wanting to spread this knowledge around to benefit its students (this is common to all aikido). Taiji doesn't necessarily always have all of these and everything heavily depends on the instructor you happen to find in your local area.

I know what I call internal. I just don't know what you guys are calling internal. Actually I'm not sure if you guys know what you are calling internal.

I will Gladly go see Dan if he's ever with in 300 miles of me. I think it would be fun, and trust me I'll report what happens.

Chris, does this stuff ring a bell for you?

Quote:

About the cross or the back chest area:

Imagine shoving a drive shraft or any pole into a hole in the floor then
slide a peg through it horizontally. Next grab the peg as it sticks out left to right with both your hands.
Now imagine the hole you stuck the pole into is attached to an engine with 1000 ft. lb. of torque and I turn it on.
When you get out of hospital with your broken arms healed you can understand how powerful it can be if:

1. the pole is your spine

2. the peg is tension held across the back and chest

3. and the engine is the ground through your legs through your hips that turn the spine or pole at the waist.

Everything attached to it is launched without you dedicating much to the effort in a forward direction. It makes powerful kicks, punches, throws, and shoves without you giving much to lose or have someone take your balance.
You are wholely dedicated without being dedicated.
The frame is strengthened through connections throughout the body which can be strengthened further still through breathing and pressures there. You are using the ground for power. Of course, it is the way you are connected that allows this power move through the whole body from foot to hand.

The above example can be quite effective in ground grappling for reversals when you are on your back with someone on you giving you weight. You hold tension in the cross and turn using the ground from your feet through the hips, turning the spine like a drive shaft .....which......... turns the peg (your scapula area). Whats attached to the peg? Your shoulders and arms.
I have seen guys lifted off the floor and thrown. The key is to not try to throw them but to maintain connection and just turn into yourself.
Breathing and certain other things add to this.