Wednesday, 15 March 2017

Gathering Storm: Rise of the Primarch Part 2 - The Special Rules, Units and Relics (Warhammer 40,000 Supplement Review)

So, with the (largely) spoiler free story coverage done for the moment, it's time to move onto the rules. Obviously this is once again going to be very character driven, with three big main units being pushed more than anything else and a few general special rules being used to help flesh out the army as a whole. It's effectively the same song and dance as the rest of the series up to this point, but as a basic update and promotional extra atop of a story focused book, it's not too bad. Would more be better? Certainly but just to reiterate, unlike what a few others have said about this series up to this point, I personally don't have too much of a problem with it. It's trying to match the Imperial Armour books in style and substance, while also being limited to a fraction of their length. So, personally, I can accept what we're being offered here.Oh, and what we're being offered is quite interesting indeed this time around.Special RulesSurprisingly, there's actually very little here to speak of this time around. While there are certainly a fair few specialist choices and unique rules, each is tied either into the individual units on offer (The Fallen, for one) or the formations which have been put together. As such, unlike the Eldar, there is no single defining theme or mechanic which drastically alters how they are played here. So, yeah, there's some fun stuff here and there, but nothing which reworks an existing army into something entirely new this time around.Units

There's a bit of the change from the usual format this time. Previously we have seen the tank, the glass canon psyker/anti-psyker and the duelist taking up the trio of roles for each army. Vital ones to be sure, and quite an effective spin on the usual variants of heroes we've seen. However, thanks to the figures present here, the lines between each of their respective roles have blurred considerably. It's perhaps to be expected given each is a power armoured post-human designed to keep fighting after having both arms ripped off and half their head missing, but it's worth mentioning.Robute Guilliman

It would have been an easy thing to just lift Guilliman up from his Horus Heresy incarnation and say "there, job done!" when it came to stats. However, Games Workshop opted instead to build upon what they had resulting in something which is effectively Guilliman 2.0. While still featuring the same monstrous stats line, the primarch has seen a substantial boost in terms of his Weapons Skill and only a slightly lessened attack value:WSBSSTWIALdSv9666666102+/3++In addition to this, perhaps to reflect his changed state, he has also lost It Will Not Die, Independent Character, and Master of the Legion. Two of these are unfortunate to be sure, even if the last one is hardly unexpected given it was unique to the Horus Heresy setting overall. Plus, it's a small price to pay for what he has gained atop of this, benefiting from Monstrous Creature (Have fun with that one!), Hammer of Wrath, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Smash, Feel No Pain and Preferred Enemy (Chaos). It's more than enough to prove that he can live up to the old legends of his supremacy, and that like all primarchs he can likely fist fight a Bloodthirster before going down. Admittedly though, he does also reflect upon the current ridiculousness of Warhammer when it comes to the rules because he has just so damn many to keep track of. Atop of the above examples, you have to also keep in mind that he retains Adamantium Will. Eternal Warrior, Fear, Fearless, Fleet, Precision Shots andPrecision Strikes from his past incarnation as well.Oh, and then you have to also mount the fact he can offer the following unique special rules to any game he is in: All Imperial forces can re-roll all failed Leadership, pinning, and fear tests. All Ultramarines gain the ability to re-use all Doctrines when he is in the army, and his Leadership is not subject to any negative modifiers no matter the situation. Oh, and you can't kill him most of the time. If you manage to fell this big blue bastard, he will show up again sometimes with D3 of his wounds restored.As said a few times before, this sort of character would normally have me complaining that he is ruthlessly overpowered, but it would be disappointing if he wasn't. He's supposed to be a one-of-a-kind demigod who could solo Greater Daemons, and anything short of this would seem cheap for the character. Plus, this seems like it is at least in part Age of Sigmar's influence at work here, allowing players of every side to have at least one obscene god-tier character in their arsenal.The main thing worth finally covering is his weapons. The armour counters and blocks attacks as standard, and the 3+ invulnerable save is certainly a nice touch, but the fact he's also carrying one of the Emperor's swords cannot go unremarked upon. It allows him to attack at Strength 10 AP1 (because of course it does) and besides Armourbane, Concussive, and Soul Blaze it has two special rules. The first is the fact that any roll of a six on a hit causes his strike to become a Destroyer grade attack. The second is that he can sacrifice six attacks to hit every single person within 1" of him. So, in a mob melee it's not much of a disadvantage.The sword would be enough of a boon in most battles, but you also have a specialised power fist known as the Hand of Dominion to take into account as well. It's a relic power fist with a gun beneath it which fires 24" S6 AP2 Heavy 3 shots per turn, which you can fire on the move because Relentless sidesteps the Heavy value.While many are already calling him Calgar on steroids, the truth is that he ironically ends up occupying a role similar to that of Magnus. You'll often use him as a means to hold a force together, grouping up and buffing units before using his enhanced power to fell the more powerful foes which are sent your way. While his lack of ranged abilities is admittedly a step down from Magnus himself, not to mention the lack of psychic potential, he's ultimately not the wrecking ball many people might consider him to be at first glance.Oh, and he's only one hundred points more than a Land Raider, so have fun with that.Grand Master Voldus

When compared with everything else across this series, Voldus seems rather tame in terms of stats and capabilities. He has the same basic stats line as a common or garden Grand Master, with the only notable difference stemming from a higher Mastery Level of three. In addition to this, he has access to most of the psychic disciplines you would expect, from Daemonology (Santic), Fulmniation, Divination, and the same ones we've seen rehashed from Codex: Angels of Death onward.So, he's reliable and dependable, but what actually makes him truly stand out here? For starters, his hammer isn't Unwieldy, meaning you can strike at Initiative 5 rather than suffer the usual delays, and comes equipped with that ever popular Iron Halo + Terminator Armour combo which makes these guys so durable. Unlike many options seen across this series, it allows him to be used as a frontline fighter without putting him at too much risk. All this amounts to a general and very good hero choice, but one who will likely (and unfortunately) be pushed into the background thanks to his competition.If you do want one major advantage though, the fact he is listed under Armies of the Imperium rather than specifically Grey Knights means he can team up with almost any Imperial force. So, Imperial Guard players? Yeah, they're about to get a big psychic boost.Cypher

As with Voldus, Cypher here is relatively unchanged from his previous stats line. With that said though, it is still one hell of a stats line:WSBSSTWIALdSv71044383103+If you need someone to be quickly dropped at close range by a few precise shots, this guy is your man. With both a bolt pistol and plasma weapon at his disposal, his special rules permit him to fire each twice in the same turn, or once each while Running. Top off all of that with the option to fire them in close combat and maintaining his full BS while shooting in Overwatch, and he can cause almost as much damage as a full Tactical Squad in the right situation. Sometimes even more than that.While his lack of an Invulnerable save might make him seem fragile at first glance, he has no end of special rules to help make up for this. Consisting of And They Shall Know No Fear, Eternal Warrior, Fleet, Hit & Run, Independent Character, Infiltrate and Shrouded, he's a useful semi-glass cannon which can be dropped into almost any situation. There is also much less risk in sending him far ahead of the main force, or even using him on his lonesome, as another unique special rule means he can escape annihilation. If any foe is not within D6 inches of him upon his death, Cypher is considered to have escaped his captors/killers, so he adds no Victory Points to their sides.There are some interesting combinations which can be considered given how you can pair Cypher up with a few extra units of Fallen Angels as well. Given just how nasty an opening barrage of plasma bolts can be to anyone, we'll probably be seeing him used quite often from here on.Relics

The Relics of Ultramar here are really much of what you would expect. We have the usual combination of various categories from the defensive, offensive and the odd weird one, but there are few here which can really be called bad. At worst a few are just a bit overly specific in their use, or unfortunately cover points or stats which are almost standard with many units today.Tarentian Cloak: Wearer gets Eternal Warrior and It Will Not Die. Generic but certainly a nice combination of two very useful skills. Thirty-five points unfortunately makes it a bit steep for adding onto a Captain, but nevertheless it's still a good choice on the whole.Helm of Censure: A nice call-back to Aonid Thiel, this is one of the somewhat more fun options as it thematically justifies the Preferred Enemy (Everyone) option far better than most other choices. This alone would normally make it quite dull, but it comes with the added bonus of re-rolling all hits and wounds against Chaos Space Marines, which makes it somewhat situational but it can be a nice extra.Sanctic Halo: This is reserved for Captains only, and confers Adamantium Will and Feel No Pain. While there isn't anything inherently wrong with this choice, I would have personally preferred something a bit more inventive. One item like this is usually enough for any one book, but two which just add on a couple of special rules makes the whole thing look rushed. That's just personal opinion though, and it still does its job well.Soldier's Blade: Oddly this is just a very sharp blade. Really, that's it, no power field, no ancient runes, it's just near preternaturally sharp thanks to lost smithing methods. Because of this it hits at AP2 in melee, making it a useful replacement for a power blade.Standard of Macragge Inviolate: Of all those on offer here, this one is easily the most ambitious of the bunch. It's the elites option, available only to the Honour Guard, they offer +1 Leadership and +1 Attack to any and all allied Ultramarines within 12" of the bearer. This would be standard really, but you also have another odd option where your dying troops might go down swinging. On the roll of a 5+ an Ultramarine felled within 6" of the banner can make an out-of-turn shooting or assault move before dying.It's limited in range, but it can be an interesting twist on things if used correctly. After all, it can give the likes of Terminators a bit more firepower or general attack capabilities, making it use for spearheading assaults or countering a major attack. Not too bad on the whole.Vengeance of Ultramar: As you might imagine with that name, this is somewhat bio-weapon related. This is basically a souped up storm bolter with Poisoned 2+ attacks. Capable of shooting at Assault 4, it means you can blaze away at approaching targets and sap more armoured figures of their wounds with ease. Overall, it's a personal favourite on this list.VerdictThus far the book can largely be summed up as good but unremarkable. Much like the lore, it has one or two big high points, with the rest remaining run-of-the-mill throughout. There's nothing wrong at all with it, but it does little to experiment or try to push the boundaries a little bit to keep things fun. So, with that out of the way, onto the next and final bit of the rules.

61 comments:

"allowing players of every side to have at least one obscene god-tier character in their arsenal."Uh...what do Eldar get? Or Orks? Or Necron? Or Tau? None of their Special Characters come close to Guilliman or Magnus in a fight. The Eldar already have a literal God-Tier character, the Yncarne, and it'd be DEMOLISHED by Guilliman. Magnus would beat it too. How does that seem fair for all the other factions?

I knew I was going to dislike the Primarchs ever being brought into 40k cause GW can never resist making them STRONGER than every other faction but this is the worst. So every single strongest character in the story is now just gonna be Primarchs? What do the rest of us factions get? I mean I'm really pissed off that the Yncarne itself cannot fight and beat a Primarch despite being the manifestation of a Warp God capable of reversing life and death.

And if Guilliman was Weapon Skill 9 does that mean Angron/Lion/Leman/Fulgrim and all 'skilled warrior' Primarchs will now be 10? Whilst all other Primarchs (besides Magnus and Lorgar) will be 9? If Guilliman, who's not meant to be one of the 'famous warrior' Primarchs is 9 base, then that means every one of the big warrior Primarchs will have to be 10, and that most Primarchs will have to be 9. How does Guilliman even have higher Weapon Skill than Magnus seeing as he's been frozen for 8000+ years whilst Magnus has been active and fighting?

Also why does Cypher have higher Ballistic Skill than Maugan Ra or Illic Nightspear?

What do Eldar get? Seriously? This is the edition where the best way to describe Eldar is "Too damn powerful!" The Eldar get two god-tier characters and the Wraithknight, one of the most underpriced things in the game and while it costs 55 points less than Guilliman, it can stomp him easily in close combat if it has a ghostglaive and scattershield, just as it can easily stomp Magnus if it closes the distance.Yes the Yncarne will lose to Guilliman, however the Avatar of Khaine will win against him 100% of the time.

As for the Necrons, they've got the C'tan. The Tau? Those have Stormsurge suits which are still stupidly powerful (admittedly a lot less so now that GW has stated in their FAQ that they're instantly killed if they get tank shocked when their anchors are deployed). The Orks? Well they get nothing unfortunately, because somebody has it out for them, alongside the Tyranids who lost all of their useful toys.

Also what's wrong about Guilliman's increase in Weapon Skill? Yes he wasn't the best of the fighters before, however he still had a long run before he was put into stasis. In that time he could have tried to improve, as he's stated to try doing in the FW books (and in those he actually becomes BS10 in 3 rounds of combat as he realizes how he can improve and does so).There's two issues with your statement about Magnus. The first is that he isn't always up and fighting, he's made very few appearances over 10,000 years. Guilliman's seen far more fights than Magnus has in the time before he was put in stasis. The second is that Magnus was given a new body and it's one that's almost always shifting form. I'd imagine that's kind of hard to use effectively given how Tzeentch likes to dick everyone over, including his servants.

Now for Cypher having higher BS, I fail to see the issue. Maugan Ra and Illic Nightspear have been doing their things for about as long as Cypher has, and neither of them have the gene-enhancements that he does, or the weird superpowers he sometimes gets and I'd definitely argue that Cypher's been in a hell of a lot more fights given that seems to happen every time he shows up (even Nightspear and Ra take time off). Cypher might actually be a lot older then they are depending on how much time he spends in or out of the warp, and older lore remarks that he likely has an unknown patron who boosts his abilities (as well as one who spirits him away whenever he gets caught). Him being more accurate than those two isn't much of a shock.

If your going to include Wraithknights I can just include Warlord and Imperator Titans and the new Ordo Sinister Titan so then its still in the Imperium's favour. I specifically said 'CHARACTERS' not Titans. The Avatar of Khaine will only win due to a technicality which is almost certainly the result of the writers not realizing that Soul Blaze always results in the Avatar having an advantage. In lore, for example, we already know Primarchs can kill Avatar's of Khaine, now we also know that they can kill the ONLY Avatar of Ynnead as well.

Also which C'tan will beat Guilliman? The Stormsurge, again, is not a CHARACTER it is a unit, compare it to the Warlord Titan then. You want stupidly powerful, look at the new Ordo Sinister Titan.

What's wrong with the increase is that if he is 9 then all other Primarchs barring Lorgar and Magnus will have to be 9 (at least as skilled as him) and many of the other Primarchs will have to be 10 (Leman/Lion/Fulgrim/Angron) meaning an incredibly small variance is displayed and that the unique potential of GODLIKE beings like the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirster to have 10 WS is usurped by the continuing 'All other faction's characters are weaker than the Primarchs' game GW loves so much.

Besides this argument about time is ridiculous; the Phoenix Lords have been nonstop fighting for over 9000 years but they only have WS 7. By this logic they should all be WS 10.

Magnus isn't always up and fighting. But he has been up and fighting for almost 8000 more years than Guilliman has been. And he certainly has fought numerous battles in that time, supposing Guilliman has fought more is just a complete assumption. We know Magnus has been fighting battles during the time Guilliman was in stasis. Guilliman isn't perfect, or the best at everything. Also I highly doubt Magnus' BODY is a problem since he's been accustomed to fighting as a Psychic Projection of himself for ages. By the same margin we could just wildly speculate that seeing as he's a Daemon Primarch his new form suites him better. Never has it been stated his body made his skills worse.

The ISSUE with Cypher having BS 10 when Illic and Maugan Ra don't is that Eldar are already stated to have super-enhanced senses beyond even that of Space Marines and Maugan Ra has been nonstop fighting since before Cypher existed. Also, Maugan Ra is in the Warp a lot too (Altansar remember?) so he could just as easily have been exposed to its effects. Darker Road reveals to us that before the Emperor even left Terra all the Phoenix Lords had already been active long enough that they were legendary figures to the Craftworlds. Also Phoenix Lords don't take breaks, they literally move around constantly fighting and battling, dying, then getting reborn to do it again. Not to mention you talk of Cypher's 'Gene-enhancements' but those have never made Marines more accurate than Eldar. Not to mention Maugan Ra is literally a composite soul entity of Psychic energy dedicated solely to the pursuit of warfare in his Aspect and nothing else. So, yeah, I call it ridiculous that Cypher has BS higher than Maugan Ra.

Seriously not everything has to be about Marines being better than everyone. The Primarchs already stronger than EVERY SINGLE OTHER FACTIONS CHARACTERS.

This is why I hate Primarchs coming into 40k. Now it'll just endlessly be about how Primarchs are better than every other faction's characters at everything. Magnus is a better Psyker than the Eldar, Guilliman a better warrior than the Incarnation of the Eldar's Gods, Leman will be even better than that, Guilliman's a greater strategist than all the other Faction's leader, it must be great knowing that your characters will always beat everyone else's characters.

No, you cannot include Warlords or Psi-titans as those are FW models and not ones found in the regular codex, whereas all the ones I picked are ones that you can get from regular GW stores and are found in regular GW books. If you want to include those then I'd include the other race's models like their Eldar titans which are better than Imperial ones, the Hierophant and that absurd Tau suit that's way too powerful.

Why is him being a special characters so important? If anything that's actually a detriment, especially without Independent Character because you can only field one of him and he's easier to kill, as opposed to Stormsurge suits or Wraithknights.

As for the C'tan, the Transcendant ones that you can find inside Escalation can.

"Magnus isn't always up and fighting. But he has been up and fighting for almost 8000 more years than Guilliman has been." Bullshit. Magnus fought the Imperium twice post heresy and before Guilliman's return, once in the Battle of the Fang, once in Warzone: Fenris. Guilliman's been in more than two conflicts since the heresy.

"What's wrong with the increase is that if he is 9 then all other Primarchs barring Lorgar and Magnus will have to be 9..." Why? Even if we ignore Magnus being 'accustomed' to his body (accustomed to something doesn't mean he's mastered it), Guilliman's one of the best Primarchs for improving his fighting form (as seen by his 30k version becoming WS10) so why do all other Primarchs have to be equals or better? Angron's a berserker who's too busy ripping and tearing to learn how to fight properly (although when he actually was given Daemon Primarch rules I'm pretty sure he was WS10), Mortarion relies more on brute strength than actual fighting form, I'll grant you Fulgrim, however Perturabo doesn't care too much about melee combat, and who even knows if Alpharius is alive.As for the Loyalists, why would Vulkan be WS9/10? The Lion and Russ sure (Russ is already that high), I can easily see Corax and Khan getting that good, but if Rogal Dorn's still alive then he'll likely be inside the palace for the past thousands of years which doesn't lead to fighting enemies all that often and if Ferrus Manus comes back why would he need to be that skilled?I genuinely don't see why you're mad that demigods have really high WS when the Bloodthirster, Avatar of Khaine and the Yncarne are all equally/more skilled than Guilliman.

Now as for Cypher, first of all the Phoenix Lords have not been 'nonstop fighting for 9000 years.' No, they've been doing the opposite of that, they've been sticking with the regular Eldar who've been running away and avoiding fighting for 9000 years, with few exceptions because craftworlds are trying to live as long as possible and conflict usually leads to Eldar dying. Not even Biel-tan goes around the galaxy looking for every fight it could constantly find, even the old lore gives it a set territory that it stays within and also rules to follow that determine when it gets into conflict or not, so unlike what you claim they do in fact take breaks. The exception to this is characters like Maugen Ra and Illic Nightspear (also Illic's not a Phoenix Lord) who didn't stay on their own craftworlds but even those two don't intentionally get into every fight they can. Ra's trying to lead his people while Nightspear's off doing his own thing (which doesn't always mean fighting, it can mean recon/observation).Also Ra entered the Eye of Terror, then left it with Altansar. He's not in the warp fairly often as you claim because the Eye of Terror isn't the warp proper and he only did that once, as opposed to Cypher who seems to enter the warp a lot (especially since he seems to go missing in transit when he's captured). I'll grant you the book does say Eldar have enhanced senses, however I can counter that by re-stating older lore has mentions of a patron boosting his abilities and also Cypher seems capable of more than the standard astartes, possibly even minor time manipulation/travel as he moves faster than should be possible even by their standards (which would be one of the reasons he can seemingly fire his pistols so quickly) and seems to have knowledge of events that haven't happened yet. Who knows, maybe something happened to him while fighting his enemies as he even fought a C'tan and at the very least we know that messed up his knife.Also Cypher's been active for at least an equal amount of time as the Phoenix Lords, if not slightly shorter. The first recorded evidence of Cypher is mid-31st millennium and the fall of the Eldar happened early 31st millennium. Sorry to tell you but saying that they were fighting for long enough to be legendary figures that early after the fall is just bad writing, as none of them were doing their thing before the fall.

Lastly: "it must be great knowing that your characters will always beat everyone else's characters."Again, Avatar of Khaine kicks his ass 100% of the time with no hope of victory for Guilliman (so you can quit your whining that he's somehow a better warrior than Khaine), and a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage can kill him in two rounds of combat, with a 66% of killing him in the first round (without Guilliman even striking back). If we want to look at another example, it takes 3 Inquisitors to kill Magnus (and honestly if the greatest sorcerer in the galaxy, daemon prince to the chaos god of magic wasn't a better psyker than the Eldar something would be wrong with the setting), and the Daemon Primarch has next to no hope of winning that fight.Yes Guilliman's a great strategist, because he's been established for a very long time as being one of the best strategists in the galaxy. He's not the best for every situation however, as I'll probably pick somebody who can roll on the Strategic table for their Warlord Trait (or just ally in Inquisitors).

Uh...the Ordo Sinister Titan is definitely stronger than the Eldar Titan, have you not read its stats yet? Its insanely strong. Also, I'm sorry, are you actually attempting to imply the Tau'anar and Hierophant Bio-Titan are Warlord Titan level? Cause that's simply not true. So no, if we go by Titans with stats, including Forgeworld ones, the Imperium still has the strongest.

But I don't want to discuss Titans, I'm discussing Characters. It is important cause Characters are the primary narrative agents of the plot, and something many people get invested in. I'd think it was obvious.

Nothing you've said changes that no faction gets Special Characters as strong as the Primarchs, all other Factions get tossed aside for this, and you think that's okay?

Also you forgot Magnus was also present at the Siege of Terra. Nor do we know that is a definitive list of all battles he has fought. Never has it been stated that he has fought no other battles. In the Warp he could have fought any number of battles for all we know.

Also are you honestly suggesting Guilliman should have higher WS than Angron??

Why am I mad? Because all the other factions characters suck compared to the Primarchs. Honestly do you think as players of Orks, Eldar, Necron, Tau and such we enjoy knowing that the Primarchs are all stronger than all our characters and no characters we ever get are ever better than them? Why should the Primarchs be stronger than every other faction's characters? Why do you think that's so fair?

Also DEMI-GODS? The Yncarne is a LITERAL INCARNATION OF A GOD but it gets beat to a pulp by the Primarchs, so why is this okay?

Yeah I’m gonna have to agree with RockTree; its super depressing that the Primarchs are now in 40k for everyone who isn’t a Marine (Spiky or Loyal variety). I already was only really able to enjoy 40k fluff by ignoring 30k fluff, since 30k fluff makes absolutely everyone other than the Emperor, Primarchs and Chaos Gods completely irrelevant weaklings who can never achieve anything. We already even know that the Chaos Gods barely notice Ynnead being born but all go crazy the moment Guilliman’s back.

That’s probably gonna be one of the saddest parts to me. I’ve been waiting for Ynnead to be born, for this major plot arc to change the galaxy, for years and was amped for it. But now, in the end, the entire thing just got brushed aside and upstaged the moment it came about by Guilliman. Its like GW did it on purpose, since even in the run-up to FoB all the enthusiasm for it got hijacked cause they leaked Guilliman early.

I might stop 40k now. I’ve always been a fluff player, so the knowledge that now the Primarchs are going to just consume the entirety of 40k the way they already have 30k is depressing. Worse still if even Ynnead’s Avatar isn’t allowed to be even as strong as a Primarch, than the Eldar will literally have no character ever as strong as a Primarch. We already don’t even have a Psyker in the top five strongest Psykers, now ever our god’s getting upstaged, this is just rubbing it in.

Also grdaat, seriously? You don’t see anything wrong with the Primarchs beating every other faction’s characters? With Cypher, an old marine, having better BS than Phoenix Lords and Greater Daemons? I mean I don’t know what to say if your position is that much pro-Marine. I’m guessing than these new development please you so good for you I suppose.

But for those of us who don’t play Marinehammer, its depressing that our characters are upstaged in everything.

"Uh...the Ordo Sinister Titan is definitely stronger than the Eldar Titan, have you not read its stats yet?" When did I say it wasn't? Also your comparison doesn't factor in one major thing: points costs. For what they provide the Eldar... everything is fairly amazing compared to how much it is to field, as is the Tau Battlesuit, whereas for a Psi-titan you could get a lot more Eldar Titans/Wraithknights, and I'd honestly have trouble picking who'd win that fight (I'm actually leaning more towards the Eldar).

"It is important cause Characters are the primary narrative agents of the plot, and something many people get invested in. I'd think it was obvious." Oh, well if that's what's so important to you, then explain to me why Eldrad should be able to stand up to Magnus when Magnus destroyed an Eldar Titan with his mind and Eldrad's nowhere close to that level. Explain to me how the Orks should stand up to Angron, who caught a titan foot that was about to step on him, and lifted it up. Explain to me how the Necrons should be as/more durable than Mortarion or how the Tau should have more plans and gimmicks than Alpharius.Primarchs are so far above pretty much everyone else including the marines based on their gene-seed that it makes perfect sense for none of the other named characters to come close to their level.I don't see a problem with Primarchs beating every other factions characters because they've always been established as being ridiculously powerful (just look up how many World Eater Sanguinius killed).

Personally what I'd rather see is other factions using multiple characters together in smart ways to deal with Primarch-level threats, which is usually what happens in 30k games. You don't send a Primarch to deal with a Primarch, you use something else to slow them down, stop them in their tracks or wipe them from the board.

"Also you forgot Magnus was also present at the Siege of Terra." I didn't forget, I said "post heresy" and last I checked the Siege of Terra didn't happen after the heresy.

"Also are you honestly suggesting Guilliman should have higher WS than Angron??" No, I said that he has more drive to improve himself than Angron does. Also I just checked his Daemon Prince rules, Daemon Primarch Angron is WS10, which makes him more skilled than Guilliman.

"Also DEMI-GODS? The Yncarne is a LITERAL INCARNATION OF A GOD but it gets beat to a pulp by the Primarchs, so why is this okay?" Because Primarchs are established to be better than Avatars for a while now. Lorgar kills an Avatar (and keep in mind, he's the weakest of them), Fulgrim kills an Avatar and the Avatar's are a manifestation, not the literal embodiment or incarnation. They're a small fraction of a deity's might which means the actual deity is much stronger than they are, and Ynnead's barely woken up, so the Yncarne is at the weakest it can possibly be.Also I don't know how many times I have to say it to get it through your skull, but there's a 0% chance of Guilliman winning against the Avatar of Khaine. For all your complaints that the Eldar have nothing similar, they definitely do, Khaine's nearly half his points and always melts Guilliman in close combat.

"Why am I mad? Because all the other factions characters suck compared to the Primarchs. Honestly do you think as players of Orks, Eldar, Necron, Tau and such we enjoy knowing that the Primarchs are all stronger than all our characters and no characters we ever get are ever better than them? Why should the Primarchs be stronger than every other faction's characters? Why do you think that's so fair?"Considering that I'm a Necron player first (you can ask Bellarius and look back at previous comment sections for that), an Inquisition player second, a 30k player third (mainly Death Guard) and a Black Templars player fourth (I used to play them more, but GW keeps wrecking their lore), Yes. I don't see any reason why anyone besides Greater Daemons, Gargantuan Creatures and Titans should stand up to Primarchs, and that's because that's how it is in the lore.For all your complaints about characters being important because they're what the lore's based on, you don't seem like you've read much of it yourself. Primarchs have always done absurd things that should be impossible, yet they still manage to do them anyway and the other races have nobody that can come close to them in terms of lore. Why is this so bad if the tabletop reflects it accurately?

Now I'd say it's fair because he's not invincible, and honestly I really like the idea of one person trying their best to take him down through careful planning and sheer skill, even if there's not much hope of succeeding. I like the thought that a group of characters could come together to bring him down as his status above them makes their actions so much greater than they would be if they were up against a regular threat.

To use an example of a good book (well, technically an audio drama), in Mortarion's Heart they make it clear that Mortarion is far above Draigo, to the point at which Draigo doesn't stand a chance against him. However thanks to a clever plan and a decent enough execution he's able to take on the Daemon Primarch and emerge victorious, with his actions seeming all the more heroic for it.To use another example, in an old White Dwarf Eldrad takes on Abaddon in a fight, and wins. It's something that was incredible because the odds of it actually happening are absurdly low, and because he came out on top it makes that fight and the subsequent story after it all the more amazing.

So honestly no I don't see a problem with the Imperium gaining a massive threat like Chaos has always has with their Greater Daemons, as it just means more strategy and teamwork from the enemies will be needed to deal with him. Perhaps it's just my opinion, but I think this game would be really boring if it devolved into Herohammer with the armies forgotten in the background while the big dudes fistfight, and I think if everyone did get a Guilliman-esque character that might be what ends up happening.

Now as for you Mah, what's wrong with making your own narrative? Personally when I'm playing 40k I like to think about why these specific armies are fighting, or what's going to happen as a result of this battle. If Guilliman's killed by a Stormsurge/Wraithknight how would that affect the setting as a whole?

Maybe it's just me who likes doing that, however just because the spotlight is on somebody else doesn't mean your own faction is less significant because of it. The chaos gods barely notice Ynnead for example because he's just starting to wake up and barely causes ripples in the warp, however it is still a massive shift in the lore and the lore also hints that Ynnead gained the power to kill Guilliman whenever he wants, which is something that even the chaos gods didn't get.Personally I didn't see Fracture of Biel-tan as less important than Rise of the Primarch because of its position (or terrible writing), I saw Rise of the Primarch as the next book in a set. Guilliman coming back is no less important than the birth of Ynnead or the destruction of Cadia, as all three of those massively shift how the setting works.

For the record if you're a fluff player then I'd have thought you'd be rather happy that Guilliman's in-debt to the Ynnari in the way that he is (like I said, they hint that Ynnead can end him at any time) and even in gameplay Khaine has a 0% chance of losing to Guilliman in a fight. Personally I'd expect Ynnead's Avatar to be weaker than Khaine in a duel considering that fighting's Khaine's thing and the Yncarne is really weak at the moment, and fluffwise Gaze of Ynnead should instantly kill anyone that Ynnead looks at, Primarch or not. I also don't get why you don't consider Eldrad to be in the top 5. He's level 4 (only Magnus is above him), he regenerates Warp Charges, he can re-roll Psychic dice and he gets access to an awesome set of powers, what more do you want, and who do you think beats him besides Magnus? Honestly after the Ynnari discipline I think Eldrad could definitely beat Ahriman in a Psychic/Magic duel.

I also explained Cypher so I'm not going over that again, and as I stated I'm a Marine player third. Personally I don't find it depressing that I can get three Inquisitors with hammers to hunt down and kill Magnus with next to no chance of losing. That's hilarious from a gameplay perspective and heroic/smart from a lore perspective, as it's three influential individuals pooling their resources together and briefly working with one another to bring down one of the Imperium's greatest threats.Aren't the greatest deeds of characters determined by the threats they faced? A character is all the more impressive if they can face off against a Primarch and live to tell about it, especially if they're nowhere near as powerful.

Yes, the Phoenix Lords have. They only appear to fight, they are always heading towards fights. They do not 'break' or 'rest' because they are nonstop fighters moving from crisis to crisis always fighting. They are in near constant battle. And they've been doing it since before the Emperor even left Terra, you can dislike it as much as you want, but it is canon, so you can't just dismiss it.

I don't know where you get this idea that Craftworlds don't get into fights often. The Phoenix Lords are actually constantly moving around from Craftworld to Craftworld, and Exodtie Worlds, and as we see in the Last Days of Ector they fight on non-Eldar worlds too. Asurmen in particular, for example, is noted to be a legendary warrior figure who's partaken in battles and entered the myths of countless non-Eldar species as well, and in Last Days of Ector shows up to fight Tyranid on an Imperium world. The Phoenix Lords don't do breaks, they don't have to since they aren't biological beings anymore, they are manifestations of a God's War Aspect.

Also Biel-Tan's 'set territory'? Biel-Tan considers all Maiden Worlds in the galaxy its 'set territory' they are frequently in fights. And Phoenix Lords battle on all Exodite and Craftworlds, they don't limit themselves. Honestly the fact that you think Phoenix Lords take breaks is just weird.

I know Illic is not a Phoenix Lord. I am just pointing out that Cypher shouldn't have better BS than Illic (I'd be okay with them being tied at 9) but Cypher should definitely be below Maugan Ra.

Also I don't quite get what your saying by 'don't stay on their Craftworlds', I mean you do realize no Phoenix Lord 'stays' on a single Craftworld and that they are constantly moving around? That's a very standard piece of Phoenix Lord lore so you seem to be under some sort of misapprehension if you think most Phoenix Lords are tied down to a single Craftworld.

Also, and I just wanna be clear here, you do realze that Cypher is obviously not always fighting either, right? When he was a member of the Ur-Council he didn't fight, when he had his meeting with the Crimson Slaughter he didn't fight, when he isn't being mentioned anywhere in the story he isn't fighting, I have no idea how you think that he is somehow fighting more than the Phoenix Lords since Cypher's primary forte is meant to be insurrection and infiltration, whereas the Phoenix Lords are the manifestations of a War Gods Aspects in constant battle across the galaxy to defend their dwindling people. Cypher definitely doesn't 'fight more than them'.

Ra is stated to have been in the Eye of Terror frequently, looking for Altansar. The Eye of Terror is an easy access to the Warp. Besides by the same logic, again, Cypher is frequently not in the Warp. During the entire Nova period when he's on the Ur-Council he isn't in the Warp, and that's a VERY long period of time actually.

Also how is 'he seems to be capable of more' an argument? All you are saying there is 'I don't know but look he just is that good'? My entire point is it doesn't make sense, not disputing that it is.

Was Cypher active before the Emperor left Terra? No. So he hasn't been active as long as the Phoenix Lords since they were already well known to the Craftworlds and had established multiple Shrines by then. So that simply isn't true.

The Avatar of Khaine wins due to a technicality. He will lose to any Primarch without Soul Blaze. Further what about an Ork Special character? A Tau Special Character? A Necron Special Character? A Dark Eldar Special Character? A Harlequin Special Character?

Also I stated, but thank for calling it whining even though such an insult is uncalled for, that Guilliman can beat the YNCARNE, the Incarnation of a God! I didn't mentiont he Avatar of Khaine, because I mentioned the YNCARNE.

Also...how can a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage kill Guilliman before he strikes back? You do realize that Guilliman will strike first, don't you?

Also I should have guessed that you of course think its fine with all the strongest Psykers being Primarchs too. So much for the Eldar being a psyker race, all of them are weaker than Magnus, the Emperor, Lorgar, Fulgrim and Malcador.

Yes, that's right. The story's best warriors are Primarchs, best strategists are Primarchs, Psykers are Primarchs (the Emperor actually). Seeing a pattern here?

Well I understand your position now at least, and can state emphatically that it is the exact position I fear has now come to 40k. The rest of us who aren't Primarchs are now just sideshows, like 30k.

"They do not 'break' or 'rest' because they are nonstop fighters moving from crisis to crisis always fighting." Can you give me a source for this, because I was pretty sure they were on craftworlds, protected the craftworlds and much like the Exarchs the only time they're used is in fights, which is why they're always described as fighting. Also the Eldar don't have 'nonstop fights' for the Phoenix Lords to get into, hell even the Imperium has the occasional century of peace and they get into fights a hell of a lot more than Eldar.

"I don't know where you get this idea that Craftworlds don't get into fights often."Maybe it's because the Eldar themselves try to avoid fights whenever possible. If the craftworlds don't need help, then what are the Phoenix Lords going to do? Yes they don't always fight on craftworlds themselves, but they always fight for the craftworlds. If there's no fighting then they don't need to do anything and I'm very certain that Maugan Ra in the older books spent the majority of his time training others rather than fighting, as a quick example.

Speaking of Maugan Ra, he entered the Eye of Terror, found Altansar and left. It's been like that since the 6th edition codex and he hasn't intentionally gone back in since he's sticking with his craftworld.

By territory I mean that Biel-tan doesn't fly off to go attack a world that it doesn't consider its own. I thought that would be pretty clear. Yes Biel-tan is the craftworld that gets into the most fights, but even then they're nowhere near constant as you seem to think they are.

The only reason for why you don't want Cypher to have BS seems to be because you want those two to be the best no matter what and are incapable of accepting anyone better. You haven't provided good counter-arguments, you've just stated and re-stated that he shouldn't be better, regardless of all the weird stuff that happens to/around Cypher that nobody but him seems to understand.

"I mean you do realize no Phoenix Lord 'stays' on a single Craftworld and that they are constantly moving around?"Are you forgetting about Maugan Ra? He found Altansar, he's staying on it, that's how the codex described him.

My mistake on the bloodthirster bit, for some reason I swore that he struck at his regular initiative. In any case in an average fight Guilliman will lose.

Now a small bit before I get fully into Cypher:"Also, and I just wanna be clear here, you do realze that Cypher is obviously not always fighting either, right?"You should watch your phrasing because you just said in this sentence that the Phoenix Lords are not constantly fighting, which kinda contradicts what you said earlier.

Continuing on with Cypher before, we don't actually know what he did or what happened during the Ur-Council and we don't know what he did there. He could have been doing any number of things, we simply don't know. There could be any number of reasons for why Cypher's that good, to name a few:Daemonic Possession, Time Manipulation, Time Travel, Precognition, Super-speed, External Guidance, Blessings from a Patron, we simply don't know because GW's always kept tight-lipped about where he gets his abilities from. The entire point of his character is that he's supposed to be a puzzle, you don't know who he is, what he wants or how he can do the things he does, all you can do is theorize.

"Was Cypher active before the Emperor left Terra? No." Were the Phoenix Lords active before the fall? No. They have a very slight head start on Cypher (relatively anyway) at absolute most and we actually don't know how long Cypher's been alive/active or for how long so when you ask a question like that there isn't a yes or no answer (he might have dropped out of time earlier or later, we simply don't know).

Now finally onto Guilliman: "The Avatar of Khaine wins due to a technicality." And Guilliman only wins against the Yncarne thanks to his armour/sword. If that's your excuse then you can make it about literally anything (he only wins against Creed because of his stats!) and it doesn't matter how he loses, what matters is that he loses so your complaint is meaningless.

"He will lose to any Primarch without Soul Blaze." You're right, he'll lose against the one other Primarch in the sett- oh wait Magnus also has Soul Blaze. Of the two Primarchs who are supposed to be used in regular games of 40k (as FW stated that their rules are not supposed to be used in regular games), the Avatar of Khaine melts them both in a fistfight.

"Further what about X Special character?"Please give me a good reason why any of those should have special characters capable of taking on a Primarch in a melee that results in a draw, if not a loss for Guilliman. With those other races in both narrative terms and gameplay terms it makes no sense for any special character in those factions to be as powerful as a Primarch.

"Guilliman can beat the YNCARNE, the Incarnation of a God!"And? The Avatar of Khaine is the same thing yet Lorgar and Fulgrim had no issues killing one each in the books. What's so strange about Primarchs being above Avatars when it's already established that this is the case?

"I didn't mentiont he Avatar of Khaine, because I mentioned the YNCARNE."No you didn't mention Khaine, instead you kept saying the Eldar had no character that can win against him even though Khaine can and will.

"Also I should have guessed that you of course think its fine with all the strongest Psykers being Primarchs too."Yes, all those Psykers... all two of them, one of which is weaker than Eldrad... what?Gameplay wise Eldrad's stronger than Lorgar but weaker than Magnus, as he should be. Lorewise unless he and Lorgar take on each other we won't know who's better (my money's on Eldrad). The Emperor's an obvious one though he doesn't have rules yet, we also don't know if Malcador's going to be equal to Eldrad or not and Fulgrim's not a Psyker, where the hell are you getting that from?

Yes the best warriors/strategist/psyker are/is a Primarch, because that's exactly what they were created to be and trained to be. Again, we've seen the ridiculous stuff Primarchs can do so I can't understand your reasoning of wanting them to be unable to do similar things on the tabletop.

So far RockTree your argument comes across as just dislike towards the Primarchs in general and I honestly can't figure out why. If you think the story will revolve around the Imperium because of Guilliman, then I'm sorry to inform you but the Imperium's always been the main faction for the entire setting, and this doesn't change that.If you think books on other races will be written to be based around Guilliman, why? The Eldar already have their own thing to do which is why they don't really stick around once Guilliman's up and about. The Orks, Necrons, Tau, Tyranids and minor races don't know and don't care that he's up and about either.

If you're upset in general just because rules-wise he's so far above most other special characters, as you seem to be, then I'm sorry to tell you but that's a childish excuse. Not every faction's going to have their own super-character who can take on everything and if that were the case then I'd actually think less of the setting for it.

I honestly don't get what's so bad about having characters that are weaker. Yeah Asurmen's not going to win against Guilliman, should I get pissed that the Imperial Guard have no character that could win against Asurmen? Should I get pissed that the Space Marines have no character that could win against Jain Zar (I'm talking specifically from the book)? Should I get pissed that the Necrons will never shoot as well as the Tau, or that the Tau will never fistfight as well as the Orks? Should I start getting pissed because the Genestealer Cults and Deathwatch have no Asurmen or even a Wraithknight equivalent?

There was an interesting article that FW put out when they released the rules for the Great Knarloc, where they said that armies should have certain weaknesses that others don't and shouldn't be able to cover all the bases that other armies can, because they should remain distinct and that giving them something powerful just because other armies have it would defeat the entire purpose of having the weaknesses in the first place.Personally I agree with that, I'd rather see armies retain their own personalities and way of playing rather than see "Guilliman vs Guilliman Equivalent." Not being the same as another faction should be something you look forward to, otherwise what's even the purpose of playing as a different faction?

Your really don't seem to know Phoenix Lords well. Have you read Last Days of Ector? Asurmen? Darker Road? Phoenix Lords have never, and never do, stay on Craftworlds. They move constantly between Crone Worlds, Exodite Worlds, Craftworlds and even non-Eldar Worlds. You really seem to have very little knowledge of Phoenix Lords.

And yeah, the Eldar don't have a century of peace. Throughout the galaxy there is always a Maiden World in threat, a Craftworld which needs some action taken to prevent future plights.

Maugan Ra spent a long time looking for Altansar, it wasn't one trip. Further Altansar, which he still often visits, is also IN THE EYE OF TERROR, still.

Furthermore, you make no real counter-argument at all, you restate pointless platitudes and don't know Phoenix Lord fluff very well.

Honestly have you ever read Asurmen or Last Days of Ector? Have you ever listened to Darker Road? This is not to be mean, it just is that you don't seem to have very complete knowledge of Phoenix Lords, and your only argument for Cypher is vague 'he's weird'.

So your admitting then that you don't know about Cypher? That the Phoenix Lords have a headstart on him and that he isn't always in the Warp or always fighting?

As for the Khaine/Guilliman thing; the point is in fluff we know Guilliman can beat both. Guilliman is canonically stronger than both.

But I don't even see the point of this conversation anymore. You've made clear you think Primarchs should just be better than everyone else at everything so why bother even discussing it?

And honestly your attempt to belittle me by saying 'your argument is bad' doesn't prove anything, its just you asserting your belief without support. By the same measure I could make an equally broad statement.

But as I've said. There's no point in having this discussion with you. You've made clear you think things are just right with the Primarchs being superior to all the other factions. Enjoy your fluff then. Bye.

I'll admit that I haven't read all the Black Library novels, Last Days of Ector for example is one that slipped under my radar, however Maugen Ra on his own proves that the Phoenix Lords do not spend all of their time fighting and that they're capable of other things.Also I like how you keep stating that I don't know my Phoenix Lords while you keep on messing up Maugan Ra, the Phoenix Lord we've always been talking about.For some reason you keep thinking that he was in and out a lot when he was not. Craftworld Eldar and the previous codex describes it as a single journey at the start of the 13th crusade, and he emerges not long after entering, craftworld in toe. Altansar is not in the Eye of Terror still and to claim it is shows me you really don't know a thing about the character you're arguing about.

"And yeah, the Eldar don't have a century of peace."**Citation needed. There are long breaks in the timeline between conflicts and though the Eldar always prepare for war they manage to avoid it most of the time.

"So your admitting then that you don't know about Cypher?"Yes I'll admit that I don't know everything about Cypher as he's designed to be a mystery, what I do know is that he's apparently a better marksman than Maugan Ra and Nightspear and to just state that he shouldn't be without knowing how he's that good is foolish.

"As for the Khaine/Guilliman thing; the point is in fluff we know Guilliman can beat both."Prove it. Point out to me where they've fought in the fluff so that we know for sure. It's entirely possible for a fluff fight to deprive Guilliman of his fist or his sword, in which case he'd have a much harder time with the Avatar and might even lose (much like how Khaine could lose against somebody else if he didn't have the Wailing Doom).Yes it's more likely that Guilliman will win, however until they fight we don't know as 40k is full of unlikely victories from the weaker candidates (just look at Saint Celestine fending off Abaddon).

"its just you asserting your belief without support."I'm pointing out that GW's books have always made the Primarchs that powerful while you haven't done anything to prove why they shouldn't be.

Look RockTree, could you at least give me a good reason for why every faction in the game should have a character capable of taking on Guilliman? What purpose does that really serve aside from putting more emphasis on the special characters and less on the factions as a whole?If everyone's a larger-than-life hero with the statline and gear to take on greater daemons, then why would anyone besides them matter? For all your complaints about the fluff acting as if Guilliman's more important than everyone else, creating characters equal to him and doling them out among the other factions would only compound the issue.If you think the little guys should matter in a setting with characters like that, then accepting Guilliman on his own shouldn't be an issue since if the little guys are going to matter among the big guys, then they're definitely going to matter without their own big guys.

If you can't/won't do that, then could you at least tell me why Guilliman should be much weaker and why he should lose to Avatars, Thraka, Obyron and Farsight? Yes avatars are powerful, but like the C'tan they're not all-powerful, and hell fluff-wise on their own they've never been as powerful as most Greater Daemons. If there was nothing capable of taking them on then what would be the point in worrying about the Eldar? What could possibly be a threat to them at that point?The same goes for the other characters I mentioned, all the best in close combat for their respective factions, could you tell me why it makes sense for Guilliman to be weaker than them to the point that they can take him on?

Finally could you explain to me why other factions don't get what the Eldar have, such as why they're the only ones with Wraithknights and their Phoenix Lords?If you want equality then why are you so fine with the Eldar keeping those characters while most factions don't have anything similar?

Why are we even continuing this? You've already stated you just want the situation to be 'Primarchs superior to all other factions' so what's the point of 'discussing' when you've already stated what your position you refused to budge on is?

Maugan Ra basically fights nonstop, like all other Phoenix Lords. I have no idea where you believe he spent an extended period of time not fighting.

I'm not messing Maugan Ra up. Maugan Ra is stated to have been looking for Altansar since it went missing. He did not just look, instantly find, leave. He's been looking for it since it went missing, then when he found it he brought it up. According to Fracture of Biel-tan Maugan Ra had to pass a series of 'Grueling Tests' to find Altansar as well.

No, the Eldar don't 'avoid it well'. Honestly where is it ever stated that the Eldar have 'centuries or peace'? There is literally no support for that. There is always a Maiden World, or a Craftworld or some battle of Fate they foresee they must be involved in.

As for Cypher, I gave my reasons why I believe Illic should be as good, and Maugan better, my opinion on that has not changed one iota.

As for the Guilliman/Khaine thing, I'm honestly surprised I need to bother. Okay, easy proof, Guilliman is a superior fighter to Lorgar, Lorgar defeated Angg'arath, who would easily clobber an Avatar of Khaine. There, done.

Celestine doesn't defeat Abaddon. She backstabs him, doesn't even end the fight. In no way does Celestine beat Abaddon in a fight.

But I'm not arguing that the Primarchs 'aren't that powerful' I've stated multiple times that I exactly dislike how powerful they were made. You don't seem to really grasp at all what my point is, if you think I'm arguing they aren't.

A good reason? So that all players of every faction have equally important and influential characters for them to invest in, engage in and feel good about? So that the feeling of power and awesome isn't exclusively limited to players of factions with Primarchs?

Isn't that obvious? Because other people, people who don't play Primarchs, also want to be able to have characters that strong, that smart and so on and so forth and we don't really want to feel like all our characters are just worse than all the Primarchs. Duh.

Also what do you even mean 'more of an emphasis on Special characters'? So its okay if the Primarchs are like that but the moment another faction has it it becomes unacceptable? How is that at all fair?

Doling out such characters to other factions wouldn't compound the issue, it would alleviate it, as then the Primarchs would have substantial challenges from the other factions in the form of their characters. It'd instantly make more fair the interactions.

Honestly your comment about 'the little guys' is so confusing I can't respond to it.

Also when did I say Guilliman must lose to Obyron or Farsight? You are literally just making up stuff and saying I said it, I have not said that once.

Also how did we move from 'Each faction gets characters as strong as the Primarchs' to 'Nothing can stop Avatars!'? Again, I never said any of that, you literally just are making up stuff now.

Also why I'm fine with Eldar having Phoenix Lords is cause most other factions have Special Characters as strong or stronger than the Phoenix Lords.

Again though. Why are we even talking? You've already spelled out explicitly that you want, and will probably get so good for you, that the Primarchs be better than everyone else.

Congratulations, you're going to get it, enjoy that. Now for the rest of us, who don't play Primarchs and wish our Special Characters could be as strong, just excuse us while we feel completely marginalized and reduced.

"Why are we even continuing this?"Because I don't understand you and would rather not leave it at that.

"Maugan Ra is stated to have been looking for Altansar since it went missing."Then why do the books state he only started at the onset of Abaddon's 13th Crusade? Furthermore I've no clue where you're getting this idea that he fights non-stop from.

"Honestly where is it ever stated that the Eldar have 'centuries or peace'?"Where's it said that they're embroiled in non-stop war? If there's no war, then there's peace, simple as that. Unless you can prove that they don't have a century without a war then your point is meaningless.

"As for the Guilliman/Khaine thing..."That's not proof, that's a theory. Hector Rex beat An'ggrath, An'ggrath's more powerful than the Yncarne, yet Hector Rex isn't nearly as likely to win against a Space Marine Chapter Master, somebody who An'ggrath slaughters easily. The most we can do in matchups that haven't happened yet is theorize who will and won't win.

"Celestine doesn't defeat Abaddon."I never said she did, I said she fends him off, and she does. Before the pylons activate she was on equal footing with him, and afterwards she still succeeds in surviving Drach'nyen and driving him off.

"I've stated multiple times that I exactly dislike how powerful they were made."And I'm trying to figure out why you feel they shouldn't be that way.

"A good reason?"How does not being a Primarch suddenly make other characters less influential or unengaging?To use the Horus Heresy books as an example, I thought Crysos Morturg was a really interesting character because of who he was, what he was up against, and how he tried to make the most with what he had. It was entirely different to how I see Mortarion who can essentially get whatever he wants whenever he wants, and if he was on-par with Mortarion then his deeds wouldn't have the same impact.

A lot of Imperial Guard players I know like them so much better than the Space Marines simply because they're regular people trying to do the best with what they've been given, even if they're in a hopeless situation. Those characters aren't suddenly going to become trivial in the face of a greater threat, usually it's quite the opposite.

"...we don't really want to feel like all our characters are just worse than all the Primarchs."Well I'm sorry to tell you but establishing certain factions as having stronger/smarter/tougher characters is a core part of the game.Is it necessarily fair that Chaos Greater Daemons are stronger than everyone else on top of being immortal? No, but it's a part of the setting, and this is nothing new. The only thing that is new is which faction gains access to these sorts of characters.

Doling out these characters to other factions and focusing on them would compound the problem because right now, the Phoenix Lords matter, Yvraine matters, the Yncarne matters. If you give the Eldar a character as powerful as Guilliman and focus on them then all the other Eldar characters would fade into the background, as you claim is happening with Guilliman.

"Also when did I say Guilliman must lose to Obyron or Farsight?"You said he shouldn't be more powerful than the special characters from the other factions, and those two are the best close-combat characters of those factions. If you didn't mean them then who did you mean? Aun'Shi?

"Also how did we move..."We didn't move, you've been arguing s s since the beginning that Avatars should beat Primarchs, Primarchs are stronger than most Greater Daemons, so I took it to its logical conclusion.

"Also why I'm fine with Eldar having Phoenix Lords..."Bullshit. There isn't a single Imperium Special Character in the game besides Guilliman, Daemons and Tyranids who can beat Jain Zar. How is that fair to the other factions?

We're talking because I'm trying to figure out your double-standards. If you read what I wrote you'd have seen that I don't even plan on using Guilliman and the one army he'd debatably fit in (as I doubt he'd like the Black Templars) is one I don't even play all that much anymore.

I cannot tell if you are being purposefully obtuse or honestly just don't understand. Regardless I find your argument style of just going 'you have a double standard' without any kind of support for it somewhat insulting. Anyway, here we go again;

The Books usually state he FOUND it at the onset of the 13th Crusade. FoB even tells us that finding it took a long time and involved 'Grueling Trials'. But we've been told before that Maugan Ra has sought his old Craftworld since it was lost, which was near the beginning of the Fall.

Because all Phoenix Lords are described as constantly moving from battle to battle to aide where they can. Because Phoenix Lords don't have 'lives' and thus come as close to 'constant fighting' as beings can in 40k.

You do realize that in 40k every faction is always embroiled in a battle somewhere, right? That even when it is having a 'peaceful' period there are still battles happening in the Imperium? The Eldar are the same. Honestly the idea that the Eldar species has centuries in which no fighting occurs is bizarre, no-one is in such a situation in 40k. No-one.

Besides your reasoning of 'where does it explicitly say X' runs counter too, nowhere is it ever stated explicitly that the Eldar have a period of centuries with no warfare whatsoever.

Hector Rex did not beat An'ggarath in a fight, did you not read it? He utilized a series of specific items to manage a successful banish. He did not defeat An'ggarath in a straight up fight like Lorgar did and Guilliman, in fluff, could.Also has An'ggarath ever even successfully killed a Space Marine Chapter Master?

No, Celestine is not on equal footing with Abaddon. The Book explicitly states that if her Geminae Superior were not there she'd lose. Celestine needs the aid of her two Angels to tie with Abaddon, she is not equal with him on her own.

Why I feel 'they shouldn't be' isn't tough, I think its ridiculous and unbalanced and unfair. It is nothing complex.

Because they have objectively vastly inferior abilties, influence and role in the narrative? I mean, for the same reason why people in 30k only discuss Primarchs really. I mean there is a reason Primarchs are discussed 3x more than anyone else in 30k.

You might like Crysos Morturg, good for you, but I'm afraid I must inform you that he is nowhere near as important, influential or involved in the narrative, or discussed and active as a Primarch.

A lot of Imperial Guard players I know hate the idea that Guilliman and the Primarchs are simply better strategists than all the Guard strategists and also feel reduced by the fact that none of their characters are anywhere near as competent as a Primarch or important as a Primarch in any field. I know a lot of Necron, Tau, Eldar, Ork and all other factions players who feel the same way too. And yeah, in RotP the Guard are so pointless they are barely even mentioned.

Establishing certain factions as having 'stronger characters' in absolute terms was never part of the game. Chaos Greater Daemons, for example, are not stronger than everyone. Numerous characters from different factions have defeated them before, cause it was fair and all factions were given access to powerful characters.

The Phoenix Lords don't really matter, they never have mattered much. The Yncarne also doesn't matter, it has done nothing of consequence yet at all. Yvrainne matters, I'll grant you that, but the Yncarne and the Visarch (a utterly pointless character) don't really matter at all and have done little to nothing.

Also why would the Eldar having a character at the level of power of Guilliman make all other characters invalidated? What? The problem is Guilliman and the Primarchs as a whole upstaging of all other factions due to the narrative format.

So new characters could be introduced. Of course. I never said Obyron or Farsight should beat Guilliman.

I argued that the Yncarne should be in the same league as Primarchs, not that they should beat them all. Please read it accurately.

Is Jain Zar all Phoenix Lords? No. Sure, maybe Jain Zar is stronger on her own, no problem, if only one Primarch was a stronger fighter than all other special characters that would be okay too, the problem is that ALL Primarchs are. Many of the Phoenix Lords can be defeated by special characters from other armies. The Swarmlord can still defeat her, as can Skarbrand. So Jain Zar isn't even stronger than all other special characters, so I still don't see your point.

I have no interest in what you play in your army, I don't see what bearing it has on this.

Anyway can we finish now? Since our positions are just completely opposed on this I don't see any gain for either of us.

"The Books usually state he FOUND it at the onset of the 13th Crusade."Let me quote the codex to you then since you're so determined not to read it: "However, as the Eye opened wide at the end of the 41st Millennium, Maugan Ra undertook a great odyssey that culminated in the rescue of his lost people."For the record the Eye opened at the 13th Crusade and other entries in the book make it very clear that's what they are referring to when they say that. He didn't even start looking for it until 999.M41, and according to the Codex Fracture of Biel-tan he found it within the same year, meaning his journey into the warp was quite short.

"Because all Phoenix Lords are described as constantly moving from battle to battle to aide where they can."First of all, would you mind providing a source? Jain Zar's entry says that she takes centuries off from fighting, Asurmen's mentioned as taking a long time off to teach, and just skim-reading the book shows that the Phoenix Lords spent a lot of their time teaching. I don't know why you keep claiming they do nothing but fight.Another thing I'd like to point out is that sometimes when they die their suits will lay bare for an indeterminate amount of time, so it's just foolish to say they've been fighting nonstop the entire time.

"Hector Rex did not beat An'ggarath in a fight, did you not read it?"I did, you obviously didn't. He took on the Daemon in such a long and grueling fight that by the end of it his storm shield was ruined, he was exhausted, An'ggarath had dozens of wounds and he finished off An'ggarath by plunging his sword into the Daemon's chest and activating it.He very clearly took him on in a one-on-one fight, won and this resulted in the daemon being banished.Hell, here's a fucking quote: "The Bloodthirster and Inquisitor fought, sacred sword against daemonic axe, unbendable will and the blessing of the God-Emperor against insatiable battle lust and the strength of the Blood God."Here's another quote: "So the great duel began, with Vraks as the prize for the winner." Here's another: "Sword and axe rang, echoing across the hillside, blades leaping to and fro with blinding speed."So is that not fighting now? The only banishment ritual that happened was Rex stabbing An'ggarath through the heart and using his powers to blast him apart which, surprise surprise, is fatal even for daemons, causing their physical bodies to be destroyed.

"You do realize that in 40k every faction is always embroiled in a battle somewhere, right?"Not according to Black Library and multiple Codices. Apparently the Necrons had a shitload of peace, the Tau had a shitload of peace, according to the (admittedly shitty) Beast Arises novels the Imperium had a lot of peace and even the Chaos Space Marines had times where they were merely preparing for war.

Luckily for me, I do not need to prove the Eldar have centuries of peace, since you claimed they always have war before I claimed my point. The burden of proof is on you, so where is your proof?

"The Book explicitly states that if her Geminae Superior were not there she'd lose."Would you mind looking up whose power caused the Geminae Superior to come back to life and assist her in the fight? One of her abilities is resurrection, so her using the Geminae Superior to even the playing field is just her using her abilities affectively.If you claim that's unfair, then we might as well claim that Eldrad and Ahriman can't be compared to each other since Ahriman uses magic and Eldrad uses Psychic powers, both of which are different to each other and both of which come from different sources.

"I think its ridiculous and unbalanced and unfair. It is nothing complex."Then why's it fair that nobody's shootier than Maugan Ra? That nobody's faster than Baharroth? That nobody's as good as Fuegan for shooting vehicles? That the most efficient character to kill GC's is Karandas and a unit of Striking Scorpions? Even Guilliman will likely lose to Wraithknights more often than not, however Karandas and his unit don't have this issue and cost almost the same.How is it fair that no book besides Daemons and Tyranids have a single special character capable of killing Jain Zar? How is it fair that Asurmen's sword bypasses Eternal Warrior and also allow him to instantly kill GC's while no other army besides Space Wolves get anything similar?How is it fair that the Deathwatch, Imperial Guard, Militarum Tempestus, Sisters of Battle, Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, Inquisition, Thousand Sons, Khorne Daemonkin, Orks, Dark Eldar, Genestealer Cults, Harlequins, Necrons and Tau have no characters that can compete with the Phoenix Lords or beat them at their own game as you claim they do?How is it fair that the Inquisition characters, specifically characters like Karamazov, cost 80 points more than Wraithlords yet are far, far worse?Sorry to tell you but the game's not fair. I mentioned that I'm an Inquisition player second and I can guarantee you they've gotten shafted far harder than the Eldar in pretty much every edition of the game besides 3rd.

"Because they have objectively vastly inferior abilties, influence and role in the narrative?"By that logic you might as well claim that the Eldar don't have any sort of Chaos god equivalent (even though they have Ynnead now) or that there's nobody there on the same level as the Emperor, and while you're at it you might as well claim the same for the Tau, Necrons, Tyranids and Orks.

"I'm afraid I must inform you that he is nowhere near as important, influential or involved in the narrative, or discussed and active as a Primarch."Where did I try to claim he was? I said his deeds carry more weight because of what he was, his limitations making what he did all the more impressive, although I'm going to have to disagree with you on his involvment. It's hard to not be involved in the battle for Isstvan III when he was one of the commanders fighting against the traitors in the middle of it, and also being one of the largest reasons they had to stay on the planet as they found it very hard to finish him and his group off (and even then he and Calleb Decima actually survived Isstvan III).

Do those players you know also hate it that Guard are weaker than Marines, both in shooting and assault? Do they dislike it that they're not shootier than the Tau, or tougher than the Necrons?It's an established game fact that narrative helps determine gameplay abilities, and I'd like to point out that Guilliman's been beaten several times by others, usually using better strategies or by taking advantages of weaknesses that he has in nearly every single battle plan, that of a dedicated command structure which would leave its soldiers in the field directionless if it's eliminated.The Primarchs are the best strategists for their preferred way of warfare, they (and this includes Guilliman) are not the best strategists for every single fight in the game, which is probably why it's not mandatory to make Guilliman the warlord (narratively that would mean he's working for somebody rather than ordering them around).

"Establishing certain factions as having 'stronger characters' in absolute terms was never part of the game."Sure it is, 3rd edition Necrons did this, 3rd edition Chaos Space Marines did this, the original Siege of Vraks books did this, where are you getting this idea from?

"Chaos Greater Daemons, for example, are not stronger than everyone."Name me one character who can beat An'ggarath on the tabletop. Even in the lore he's never fighting at his best when he loses.

"Also why would the Eldar having a character at the level of power of Guilliman make all other characters invalidated?"Because according to you that would mean they're the only character of that faction that the plot sees as relevant. You can't have it both ways, either the other characters stay relevant despite a character like that (in which case there's no issue), or you only focus on them and ignore everyone else (which means the other characters are irrelevant).As it is the Phoenix Lords and even character like Yriel are relevant because they don't have anyone in their faction trying to upstage them.

"I never said Obyron or Farsight should beat Guilliman."No, you were just upset that those factions have no special character who can win against him, which is the same thing through different words. If you wanted other characters to be introduced to those factions who can fight him then you should have said so.

"I argued that the Yncarne should be in the same league as Primarchs, not that they should beat them all. Please read it accurately."Oh my mistake, if that's all you want then you've already gotten it, the Yncarne is already in the same league. Seriously, it has a good statline, great Psychic powers, good saves (3+ followed by 5+ invuln followed by Feel No Pain's nothing to sneeze at, always being better than a 4+ Invuln) and it could definitely stand up to Primarchs quite well. Hell, if it gets into a duel while models around it die, then the Yncarne is in no danger of losing that fight either unless it's facing Mortarion.

"Many of the Phoenix Lords can be defeated by special characters from other armies."Please, name them from the factions I mentioned earlier in this reply.

"So Jain Zar isn't even stronger than all other special characters, so I still don't see your point."All right, let me put it in words you used, the characters who beat her can only win thanks to a technicality. Seriously there isn't a single non-monstrous creature special character who can win at her in a fight, so if you want to complain that the Eldar are less than the Imperium, you should look at every single faction that doesn't have MC special characters, and complain about them first.

"I have no interest in what you play in your army, I don't see what bearing it has on this."Maybe if you didn't act as if I was pro-marine and nothing else then I wouldn't need to bring it up. I did that to show that the reason I expect him to be this powerful is because of how he is in the narrative, and not because I want to use his tabletop abilities.

Now to finish this off, I am serious when I say I don't understand you, because I don't understand why you're so fine with the Eldar getting the Phoenix Lords while many other factions get nothing. I don't get why you seem fine with Daemons getting the most powerful characters while other factions get nothing. I don't get why you're so upset about arguably the strongest faction in the game not becoming stronger because it doesn't have a Primarch, or why you still can't be satisfied that he can't win against several of the things in the book.I just don't see how you can look at the Phoenix Lords being far and away the best special characters for what each of them offers (especially when we factor in points), and decide that it's perfectly fine for it to be this way, that the Eldar can remain at the top like that while nobody else can get anything.It honestly came across for a while as somebody who's upset that their characters are in danger of dying or that their army's in danger of losing, however I don't want to make that assumption, so I'm trying to understand where you're actually coming from on this.

If you want the crunch to follow the narrative, then Primarchs are stronger for their specific roles. If you don't want that, then it makes the way you've been arguing sound extremely petty.

Uh, yeah, that's when he FOUND Altansar, but he's been looking for it before then obviously. You're making the mistake of assuming when he succeeds is the only time he ever attempted.

The Codex says she 'disappears' not that she takes centuries off from fighting. The Phoenix Lords do not remain only with the Craftworlds, they travel through the Webway fighting battles on Maiden Worlds, Exodite Worlds, the Black Library and even worlds with no Eldar. Again, read Last Days of Ector, Asurmen and Darker Path. It does not say she or Asurmen take centuries off from fighting.

Obviously when using the term 'nonstop fighting' in this context I mean 'as much as practically doable' since no character fights every second of every day. That is a double fallacy in any case, since you previously stated Cypher fought nonstop, which is of course similarly not true.

If I recall correctly Hector Rex only won because he was wielding a weapon uniquely designed to counter Daemons of An'ggrath's level.

Also, no, Black Library never says their is true peace at any point in time. Even the examples you bring up; if you read the Beast Arises series for example there are ongoing conflicts in the Imperium before the Beast's arrival, they are just smallscale compared to the warfare the Imperium is accustomed too. Honestly in a space as large as the Imperium, or Eldar or Orks or whoever, it is simply unrealistic for their not to be a conflict occurring somewhere at some point in time.

Honestly I just do not understand the reasoning you are utilizing here at all. You don't need to prove something? How does that make sense for any kind of discussion here at all.

No-one is disputing she 'uses her abilities cleverly' but that does not change that you are incorrect to say that Celestine is an equal fighter to Abaddon at all. That's a fact, the book itself explicitly states that if Celestine were to fight Abaddon alone she'd lose. Why is this even important? What bearing does this have on the conversation?

Your point about Eldrad and Ahriman is equally baffling.

No-one is faster than Baharoth? What you mean in Initiative? Cause Baharroth doesn't have the highest Initiative. And what do you mean 'no-one is Shootier than Maugan Ra'? His gun isn't even that good, its basically a Shurkien Cannon with Death Jester Ammo. How is that the shootiest weapon in the game?

Why are you including Karandas' unit? By that logic then if you're going to give him a unit give Guilliman a Unit of Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, then compare them.

Swarmlord will kill Jain Zar, Old One Eye also has a good chance since Jain Zar is very poor against high toughness targets. Skarbrand will definitely kill Jain Zar. Why does it matter that they have only one person who can do it? Shouldn't you be asking; 'why do the Eldar only have one person that can kill Skarbrand'? Why do you create this completely double-standard where it is important that the Eldar not have a special character better than anyone at anything?

Also why are we discussing Crunch? I've already now said before that I've transitioned to a discussion of fluff.

Also, again, all those factions you've listed; Ghazghkull will beat every Phoenix Lord but Jain Zar, whereas Skarbrand and the Swarmlord can kill Jain Zar. You don't seem to be even making a coherent argument now, I have no idea what is being discussed, is this discussion now just about who can or cannot kill Jain Zar?

Well yeah, I am very upset that the Emperor and Chaos Gods are stronger than all other factions, I think it is very unfair and belittling, so I agree with that logic completely. I particularly hate it for the Eldar since they are supposed to be the most psychic species, yet all the best Psykers in the story are humans.

No they don't hate being inferior to Marines in skill, they hate being less important than them in the narrative though, and having no characters who can ever claim to be the best at something. You see most players want to be able to claim something about their faction's character as better than another's, having the Primarchs all be the best at everything is kinda depressing for the rest of us.

There is no non-Primarch has gifted a commander or warrior as Guilliman. I honestly don't even see why we're discussing it.

An'ggrath isn't the only Greater Daemon. So that argument of yours makes no sense at all. Kairos, for example, can be killed by multiple special characters, as can Skarbrand.

Also An'ggrath lost to Marneus Calgar in Blood Oath.

No as for the next point, you don't seem to be listening to me at all. The irrelevance problem only arises when only ONE GROUP are allowed to be strong. If all factions have powerful special characters balance can be achieved and division of effort.

Yriel and the Phoenix Lords were near completely irrelevant in Fracture. Have you even read Fracture of Biel-Tan?

The Yncarne will lose to both Primarchs in 40k. How is that Primarch level? Honestly I just don't understand, you seem to move your point and position around so quickly I can't even keep up with what you are trying to say.

What? Why? I see no reason to ignore Monstrous Creature Special Characters.

It is Pro-Primarch. I don't care if its pro-marine. It is Pro-Primarch.

Daemons don't have the most powerful characters. Phoenix Lords aren't stronger than everybody.

I don't understand you. In actual 40k, so in Codices and such, both the strongest characters now are Primarchs, but you instead seem to think its Greater Daemons and Phoenix Lords? Seriously, how can you even begin to think a Phoenix Lord will beat either Magnus or Guilliman? Have you not read their stats?

What I want is easy; the Primarchs aren't the best Special Characters at everything and all factions get some Special Characters on their level. Easy.

Oh, and the Yncarne being on the level of the Primarchs on 40k. See, its simple.

RockTree, I apologize if this is insulting, but quite frankly I am very short on patience right now. If you want to have a discussion over this then please have a discussion. If you want to simply vent about how unfair the setting is - not that I wholly disagree - then go elsewhere. I have to approve every comment you have posted thus far and, while I am open to the opinions of others, trying to pick fights with me in the latest article so you can stand on a soapbox while preaching about the Eldar is not something I tolerate. If you can please simply stop preaching I will authorise the latest half-a-dozen posts you have spammed into threads. If you cannot, then please walk away until you have calmed down.

Bellarius and Rocktree, if you want we could take this somewhere else, say on Steam or somewhere that would allow us to send instant messages so that we wouldn't have this long back and forth between each other.If you're up for doing that we could probably solve all of this in one night when we finally start talking.

Alright. I apologize then if it came across as 'preaching' and honestly I feel a lot more than the Eldar suffer, they were just the example I was using in context of Gathering Storm since they were the only other faction which got a release.

Also, if it came across like I was trying to pick a fight, that was almost not my intent, sorry if it seemed that way.

As for authorizing the posts, you can do so if you want, obviously you don't need to either, nor do you need to so on my behalf I'll just say. Sorry for the inconvenience then.

To be honest, also, perhaps it is better if you don't just post them regardless. As I said in my earlier posts I already felt the conversation should have stopped earlier, I just didn't have the willpower not to respond to further posts.

Obviously the decision will rest with you, but I'll just add that I really don't mind if you don't post them, and perhaps for the sake of ease its more pragmatic not to post them.

Look, it's been a while, but I was checking this over again and I'd rather address some things here before finally moving on since it took a while for this last set of comments to be approved. This is likely the last I'll be adding here, and if you wanted to continue this RockTree, then please contact me on steam (I've got the same username as the one I use on this site). Through those messages we'll be able to settle this in a day rather than a month.That said, here I go:

"Uh, yeah, that's when he FOUND Altansar..."No, the book says he started looking at that time. Please read the book before arguing this point any further.

"The Codex says she 'disappears'..." And she's not thought to be fighting when she's gone, otherwise it would have said that. We don't know what she's doing, so you cannot assume she's fighting. You might argue that I can't argue that she wasn't fighting, however that's still conceding the point that you cannot assume to know what she was doing.

"The Phoenix Lords do not remain only with the Craftworlds..."Funny since Maugan Ra definitely does (he's sticking with Altansar and even before this he only stuck to the Craftworlds). Once again this is already made clear in the codex.

"If I recall correctly Hector Rex only won..."Oh so he did fight and win now did he? Yes, that was one of the main reasons he won, aside from his aura, his psychic abilities, knowing An'ggrath's name and his combat prowess. I'm glad however that we were both able to agree that he fought An'ggrath since earlier you said he didn't fight him.

"Also, no, Black Library never says their is true peace at any point in time..."For the different factions they sure as hell do. If you don't think this is the case, then how exactly did the Necrons survive into the 41st millennium with so many Tomb Worlds? There's quite a lot, but without millions of years of peace they'd all be destroyed.Also the Tau's whole gimmick is that they were given a shitload of peace which they used to develop a lot of tech, and when I say the Imperium was at peace I mean the same thing Black Library does, that the conflicts were apparently so small in scale that they didn't qualify as being at war.

"You don't need to prove something?"Yes, because the burden of proof falls upon whoever made the first claim. If you tell me that the Eldar never had peace, I can simply ask for you to prove it. If you cannot prove your point, then you must concede it.

It's important to state what I did in regards to Celestine because if I didn't, then you'd be handicapping her. You might as well say that Abaddon isn't stronger than her, he's just using his sword, and without his sword he wouldn't stand a chance (which is also true in both lore and tabletop play).

"No-one is faster than Baharoth?"Yes, nobody can move across the table faster than Baharoth can. The closest unit is Grey Knights, however their ability can only be used once, so Baharroth beats them in the long term."'no-one is Shootier than Maugan Ra'?"Yes, because he puts out the highest volume of fire (and causes the most ranged wounds) out of any special character in the game, bar none. "Why are you including Karandas' unit?"Because it brings his points in line with Guilliman's unit. Also Guilliman and a unit of Terminators can still be destroyed by a Wraithknight. It's not quite as likely to happen, but they cost nearly double Karandas' unit, and give far worse results, so how is that fair?"Swarmlord will kill Jain Zar..."Hang on a minute, didn't I ask how it was fair that no book besides Daemons and Tyranids have special characters that can beat her? Sorry to tell you but agreeing with me here does nothing for your argument."Why do you create this completely double-standard where it is important that the Eldar not have a special character better than anyone at anything?"Because you've got a double-standard where you think the Eldar should have characters better than everyone else's special characters (because when I pointed out that the Yncarne actually was in Guilliman's league that wasn't good enough apparently), so I'm trying to point out to you that it's unfair for one faction to have its characters be better than everyone else's.There's nothing wrong with a faction having a character that's above yours, and this has been in the game for a very long time.

"Also why are we discussing Crunch?"Because you brought it up when you were bitching that the Yncarne can't beat Guilliman, and you've been complaining for a very long time now that they're not in the same league (even though they are) while comparing stats from the various special characters. This is something you brought up in your initial comment, don't try to pretend that it just suddenly appeared.

"Also, again, all those factions you've listed; Ghazghkull will beat every Phoenix Lord but Jain Zar..."It's almost as if I didn't say that those other ones were the best fighters now did I? I don't get this point because I claimed that Jain Zar's the best for killing non-Monstrous Creatures and is ludicrously good at her job, and you've done nothing to argue against this. Also Asurmen will totally kick his ass in a challenge."I have no idea what is being discussed..."That much is obvious. Please try paying attention this time, what's being discussed is that the Eldar cover every base far better than every other army could possibly hope to do so. They've got the best duelist, the best MC/GC hunters, the best vehicle killers, the best flyer killers, the toughest escorts, the greatest and ridiculously underpriced MC/GC's and barring bad luck and a bad player, it's really hard to make them lose (which is why they've won about double the major events when you compare them to Daemons, Eldar and Daemons coming in 1st and 2nd place respectively as far as event winners go).

"I'm talking about narrative now..."Then you really should have made that clearer many posts ago.

That's not true, all the best Psykers in modern 40k are Daemons (even in 30k the Primarchs and Emperor weren't technically human). Hell Ahriman's a sorcerer, not a Psyker and in terms of raw psychic might he cannot compare to Eldrad. Also we just had a discussion that detailed how Eldrad isn't inferior to Ahriman, and even past that the Eldar have more powerful Psykers than humans.

I can sympathize with a faction having no characters that are the best at what they do, which is the exact reason that I listed all of those factions that the Eldar can beat at their own game.

"There is no non-Primarch has gifted a commander or warrior as Guilliman."Now I can guess at what you're trying to say here, and I can't really agree with you. Guilliman's lost fights before, and he's also made terrible tactical decisions. Even in Rise of the Primarch he loses fights to non-Primarchs and he makes dumb decisions that requires somebody else to chew him out for it. He might be an extremely gifted commander/warrior, but that doesn't mean there isn't room or improvement, and it doesn't mean that it's impossible for him to lose.

"An'ggrath isn't the only Greater Daemon."I never said he was, I simply asked you to name me a single character on the tabletop that could beat him since you said they're not stronger than everyone, and I know you can't because I've done the math, and mathematically there isn't a single model that stands a snowflake's chance in hell at beating him in a fight. Even in the lore when he's at his most powerful, there isn't anyone who can beat him in a fair fight (since everyone who won against him cheated or took him on when he was weakened in some fashion).

"Also An'ggrath lost to Marneus Calgar in Blood Oath."I've since read Blood Oath, and aside from that fight being pretty bad, it was also not fair to An'ggrath since Chaos was already fading away at the time of the duel, so he wasn't at his most powerful (similar to Celestine when Abaddon finally wounded her).

"If all factions have powerful special characters balance can be achieved and division of effort."I agree. So please tell me again, how is it fair for that the Eldar can beat everyone at everything? I also think you're very narrow-minded right now too, because while one faction might have a very powerful character, another faction can have slightly less powerful characters, and achieve balance through quantity vs quality.

"Yriel and the Phoenix Lords were near completely irrelevant in Fracture."When did I say they weren't? I'm simply asking how it's fair that the Eldar get all of their characters to be the best at what they do, and the other factions get nothing in comparison.

"The Yncarne will lose to both Primarchs in 40k. How is that Primarch level?"Because of its statline and rules. I've mentioned this before, but so long as there are Eldar dying around it (almost as if you're playing a game consisting of more than two models) then the Yncarne has no issue in killing off every Primarch except Mortarion and Horus if he uses his Talon. The Yncarne hurts a lot of them far easier than they hurt him while also having better saves than a number of them too, so I definitely don't see how they aren't comparable.Also you're a hypocrite since just earlier you said "I argued that the Yncarne should be in the same league as Primarchs, not that they should beat them all." You don't need to beat them to be in the same league, you just need to stand a really good chance against them and if the Yncarne's on its own, it stands a really good chance against them. If it's not on its own (as in, if it has an army that is fighting the enemy army), then it WILL beat all but two of them. You also claimed to only talk about narrative games (which you're clearly not doing here) so you're a hypocrite again, since narratively all the Yncarne needs to do to kill the Primarchs is to use Gaze of Ynnead on them to have them instantly die.

"What? Why? I see no reason to ignore Monstrous Creature Special Characters."And I see no reason to ignore Soulblaze. If you don't want to ignore Monstrous Creatures, then you cannot ignore Soulblaze allowing Khaine to have a 100% win ratio against 100% of the Primarchs currently in the game. In a narrative game too Jain Zar would still be able to disarm whoever she was fighting, Monstrous Creature or not which would allow her to win anyway, so in both cases there's a technicality.

"Daemons don't have the most powerful characters. Phoenix Lords aren't stronger than everybody."I've already covered this. Nobody can beat a full-strength An'ggrath, nobody's stronger than the Pheonix Lords at their roles. All you've done to counter this is to go 'What? I don't understand.'

Here's a little something I'm not sure if you're aware of, but Greater Daemons have beaten Primarchs before. Multiple Greater Daemons have beaten Multiple Primarchs, and in one-on-one fights at that. If that doesn't show you that Primarchs are not the absolute best at everything, then I don't know what will.

"Seriously, how can you even begin to think a Phoenix Lord will beat either Magnus or Guilliman? Have you not read their stats?"First of all, when did I say that they will? I distinctly remember saying that they lose to them purely because they're Monstrous Creatures, and that it's only thanks to that technicality that the Primarchs win. Narratively Jain Zar would just disarm them in a fistfight and could then beat them.Secondly, you said that you were talking about narrative now, which must have been a lie since you're clearly not.

The Primarchs aren't the best Special Characters at everything. Your wish was already granted before you made it (once again, Khaine kills them just fine and with no risk of defeat) and the Primarchs all had rolls they excelled in, much like the Phoenix Lords who are the best at their specific field.Throughout this argument I've been getting the impression more and more often of an Eldar player who's mad because even though they're still the strongest faction in the game, another model's come out with stats and rules that bump it up to being better than some of their existing characters (not all of their existing characters, once again Khaine kills them both easily).I'd still like to know why you're so fine with the Eldar being better at everything than everyone else, as you've never once answered that question.

"all factions get some Special Characters on their level."Explain to me how that makes sense on a narrative level.

"Now are we done? I'm getting tired of repeating myself."You don't have to repeat yourself, you could try reading what I wrote already so that I don't have to point out that I already covered these points earlier.

Now this is a message for you Bellarius, but after reading those comments I find it hard to let them go and not reply. I'd very much like to just settle this on Steam or even on something like Twitter (I'll make an account there if I need to) since I feel that would be the most efficient way to do settle this since most of it seems to be RockTree not understanding what I'm trying to tell them and on Steam I'd be able to go get past that problem so much quicker.

I've got nothing against RockTree learning my username on Steam (it's the exact same username as this account) so if it's at all possible to move this discussion there, I'd be all for it.

Honestly, if i'm going to be completely honest about this, I probably wouldn't have the time for that. Please, don't get me wrong, this would be an interesting conversation to have given the direction of the game, and I actually do agree with a few of RockTree's sentiments to a less extreme degree, but it's difficult to set aside even five minutes to do this. Sorry, but because i've started two jobs at once, i'm currently working about fourteen to sixteen hours a day trying to sort out the two.

I understand Guilliman not having IWND anymore, as losing it seems to be a side effect of him having coming back from the dead. Likewise I get why he's now a monstrous creature, as that suit of armour seems to make him so much larger.Not being able to join units kinda sucks however, it makes him a lot more vulnerable than his 30k counterpart, even with the improved save and Feel No Pain. Not so sure about how I feel on him coming back though, on the one hand it's almost like the old-school bionic rules, but on the other hand it seems like putting him down for good can be unreasonably difficult if you're not using a gargantuan monstrous creature or Magnus.

Aside from that he seems to be a good force multiplier and I'm iffy on whether or not he's priced adequately. He's actually missing one more special rules from his 30k version that I'd say he was underpriced if he was allowed to keep it: Preturnatural Strategy.On its own it made him ridiculously effective as a force multiplier as it could give any army selection Implacable Advance (30k's version of objective secured), Interceptor or Tank Hunters. However it applied to all units from that selection, so for example you could state that all predator annihilators in your army get Tank Hunters, all Heavy Weapon squads in your army get Interceptor, all Land Raiders get Implacable advance, there was no restriction to it and having what could easily be half your army turn into units with Objective Secured was ridiculous, especially when he performs better in close combat than most other Primarchs yet was also cheaper.

With his current ability to be a force multiplier/beatstick, at least he's far more limited. 30k Guilliman had no range limit on most of his abilities and his abilities were also stronger (such as giving any one squad within a certain radius +1 to the BS of all models in that squad) and to top it off you could hide him in a transport to run him down the field. His current utility seems fairly tame by comparison, being something that you don't want to get tied up with but have plenty of opportunity to avoid (the best you could do with 30k was try to find a way to blow through an AV15/AV16 vehicle (essentially made that tough through a thing called a Flare Shield) that also had 5HP and was immune to the Melta rule).

I guess I'll wait to see him in action, however I like what they did with Voldus. Some armies are still lacking good psychic/combat support and he can fill nicely. Cypher also seems to be decent, being almost the same as before.

Overall I think I can say I'm happy with these, though I've yet to see Guilliman in action. Maybe something will come up and I'll comment later like it did with Imperial Agents.

Guilliman also gets all six Warlord Traits from the Command table if he's the Warlord, which makes him more powerful: that means all friendly units within 12 inches use his Leadership, can re-roll 1s to hit in both shooting and assault, have Move through Cover and add 1 to their Run and Charge rolls, and enemy units within the same range have to use their lowest Leadership rather than their highest. It means you have to blob a bit, but the payoff is pretty big.

Not sure why but I seem to be struggling to reply to that original comment so I'll just post my response here grdaat. Sorry for the inconvenience, not the best with tech so not quite sure what the problem is. Anyway, my response;

Um, I totally disagree with you. Completely. So I'll try to break it down;

1) I hate the Primarchs being made out as stronger than all other faction's characters in fluff, hate it, didn't you see the part where I said I've had to ignore 30k fluff in order to enjoy 40k? I think it's incredibly unfair and biased to all the other factions and I wish it'd never been done.

2) I'm sorry but empirically RotP was simply treated as a far more major event in Fluff, that's just clear from both GW's writing concerning it, and the in-universe reactions we were presented with. Also it is hinted nowhere Ynnead can kill Guilliman whenever he wants, nowhere. Furthermore, obviously, the other factions are less significant. Again that's just clearly objectively true. We know in fluff Guilliman will beat an Avatar of Khaine, so no that does not make me happy.

3) Because Eldrad is weaker than the Emperor, Magnus, Lorgar and Malcador. Considering Ahriman defeated the Yncarne, Yvrainne and the Visarch instantaneously, whilst Eldrad cannot even defeat a Deathwatch Squad, Ahriman is clearly stronger than him too.

4) An aside but you mention 'why shouldn't the Imperium get big threats special characters like Chaos" so my question is why shouldn't Eldar and Orks get special characters like that too?

To be fair there is nothing I can discuss with you regardless. You've made clear you are so in favour of the Primarchs being superior to every other character that we simple have nothing in common.

1) Do you also hate how all characters besides Primarchs are weaker than Daemons then?I just don't understand why this only goes one way

2)RotP is treated as something more than FoBt by the Imperium and Chaos because the Imperium's the focus there, and Chaos was rising at the time now that there's no Cadia to stop it. It would make sense that we focus on the faction that the book's looking at as well as their enemies.Personally I don't see the rise of the Ynnari as being less important because they're trying to bring together three separate groups and has radical consequences for all of those.Also I'm pretty sure they did mention that Ynnead's sorcery was one of the things keeping Guilliman alive and that it can be withdrawn if they so choose.

3)Eldrad's weaker than the Emperor and Magnus. We know for sure he's stronger than Lorgar, we don't know if Malcador's going to be stronger or weaker than him on the tabletop yes, and Eldrad was concentrating so much on waking Ynnead in the fight you mention that he could barely do anything more than block a plasma shot. Comparing Ahriman to Eldrad like that's ridiculously unfair, especially considering that Eldrad has the edge on the tabletop as well.

4)"so my question is why shouldn't Eldar and Orks get special characters like that too?"Because lore-wise it makes no sense for the Eldar or Orks (the ones that are around by the 41st millennium anyway) to be able to stand up to a Primarch. I still can't understand why this is so important when they've still got superior war machines and when they can still have characters work together to try and take Guilliman down.The one exception is the Avatar of Khaine, as both Guilliman and Magnus will lose to him 100% of the time in a fistfight while Khaine costs far less than they do. Aren't you at least happy that of the two Primarchs that should be used in 40k (as FW stated their 30k rules shouldn't be used for 40k games) Khaine will win against both of them in close combat?

But yeah, fantastic, Ynnead ends up less important than a Primarch and now we get to have even more 'Primarch's better than everybody' rubbed in our faces.

Honestly the only 'good' thing to come out of this for me is I can at last shut up some people I know who say foolish things like 'Phoenix Lords are comparable to Primarchs' cause we now have clear proof Phoenix Lords are WAY weaker than Primarchs

Honestly Mah, if you don't like what the books have done then I can't help you. The reason I accept the Primarchs as being more powerful is because that's how they've always been from the beginning and if you dislike that part of the setting, then you're right and we really don't have anything in common.

If a Necron Phaeron was suddenly able to duel Guilliman to a standstill I would do a spit-take because, even though I play Necrons a lot more than Marines (and even then I play Black Templars), it would be something stupid and completely absurd.When GW released Warzone: Damnos, which in my opinion is one of the worst books to come out of GW, I cried foul because it's nothing more than Marine-wank and a lot of the events in the book make no logical sense. Likewise when Mont'ka came out I also cried foul because nearly the entire book's a nonsensical piece of shit.I also didn't like Death Masque because of how badly it favoured the Imperials, specifically the moment the Dreadnought entered the fight the entire book became laughable at how easily the Deathwatch were able to beat the Eldar.

I'm saying this because as somebody who's not mainly a marine player, who's not an Ultramarine player and who's not likely to field Guilliman at all (hell, I'm likely going to need to fight against him a lot), I really don't see the issue with him being made that powerful. One more thing I missed earlier though, we actually don't know if Guilliman will beat Khaine in a fight lorewise since they've never fought. We can have a pretty good guess that he will since Lorgar and Fulgrim beat one, but even if you establish something/somebody as stronger we still don't know the outcome until they fight, just look at Eldrad beating Abaddon for that. We do know however that he can't win against him on the tabletop, and I still don't know why that's not enough.

@grdaat: All characters are not weaker than Daemons though. In fluff Daemons have been defeated by characters from other factions. Jain Zar beat the Masque, an Avatar of Khaine tied with Skarbrand, Calgary defeated An'ggarath in Blood Oath and so on and so forth. Daemon characters have never been established as 'stronger than all other characters', that honor is reserved only for the Primarchs. To be honest the Swarmlord can probably kill most Daemon characters. So I don't see a point here.

I don't really know what more I can say on he 'importance' dispute. RotP is simply, clearly, objectively treated as being far more important than FoB both in-universe and out-of-universe. Furthermore, it is said nowhere that the Ynnari can 'remove' the sorcerey and kill Guilliman, that is neither said nor implied.

Then for Eldrad; firstly you make the mistake of thinking I care about Crunch. I don't, I only care about fluff. In fluff Lorgar can psychically overpower Fulgrim, who we see later can psychically destroy a Titan. Similarly Malcador can push an entire moon into the warp. These are all feats far above anything Eldrad ever comes close to matching.

Also comparing Eldrad and Ahriman is in no way unfair. Ahriman is clearly, considerably, more powerful. Eldrad has regularly been forced to flee from regular Marines, Ahriman can instantly defeat the Yncarne, Yvrainne and the Visarch, Ahriman is clearly considerably more powerful than Eldrad. In FoB Ahriman also effortlessly destroys Kyasudaras the Anchorite, considered the wisest and most venerated Farseer of Craftworld Ulthwe. So no, Eldrad is clearly considerably weaker than the Emperor, Magnus, Lorgar, Fulgrim, Malcador and Ahriman.

Also, as I said, I care about fluff, so the Avatar of Khaine winning in crunch due to an oversight does not matter to me. Furthermore the Eldar do not have 'better' War Machines in fluff as he Imperium possesses the Emperor and Ordo Sinister Titans, far more powerful than Eldar Titans.

@grdaat(cont): I don't require help, nor did I ask for it. And yes, as I said in my first post, I hated 30k fluff so much that I ignored it for the purpose of 40. Sadly I can no longer do so, and now all non-Primarchs factions are reduced to sidekick and sideshow status. I is literally my greatest fear about 40k come to life.

Eldrad beating Abaddon is one outdated White Dwarf entry which no longer even corresponds to the canon. Further, if Lorgar can beat An'garrath and Marneus's Calgar can beat the Avatar of Khaine handily, then there is no doubt Guilliman could too.

Done.

@RockTree: I honestly cannot imagine how someone could even possibly imagine that a Phoenix Lord is at all comparable to a Primarch. That is ridiculous.

One of the biggest pieties to me is simply how is further reinforces the fact that the Eldar are worse Psykers and Seers than humans. Not to mention thanks to the 30k Talons of the Emperor, the Eldar also have weaker Grav Vehicles than the Imperium too. It is as if the Imperium is better than everyone at everything which grates me.

Honestly Death Masque was the beginning but the reduction of Ynnead to a plot gimmick for the return of a Primarch has ended my interest in this game's lore.

First of all the Masque isn't a Greater Daemon, which is one of the reasons why it makes sense for Jain Zar to beat it.Secondly tieing Skarbrand isn't as much as an accomplishment as he's actually weaker than most Bloodthirsters, and I'll admit that I haven't read Blood Oath, but if that's true then that reeks of bullshit.

As for RotP being treated as more important, I still can't see it as being more important to anyone but the Imperium and Chaos, which is what the book shows since those are the main combatants of the 13th black crusade. Hell, the reason the Ynnari bring Guilliman back to begin with is because they want somebody else for Chaos to go after while they work on fully waking up Ynnead.

Now for Eldrad, I still don't get where you think Fulgrim has Psychic powers from, he doesn't. Magnus was the one who broke a titan and he was only briefly surprised by Lorgar's unlocked potential after he started worshiping the Chaos gods.Comparing Eldrad to Ahriman when you use an example where Eldrad had to focus 99% of his power on something else and couldn't participate in the fight is unfair. If you want to compare them then you should have them both at their best, not Eldrad at his weakest and Ahriman at his best.

You also seem to be ignoring that while Ahriman 'beats' the triumvirate, he 'loses' in the exact same way he 'wins'. I put airquotes around those because normally when you win a fight it's because you've defeated your opponent, not just moving them to a different position.Also that was a tactic that only worked in the webway, which again means that you're using an unfair comparison for it.

"he Imperium possesses the Emperor and Ordo Sinister Titans, far more powerful than Eldar Titans."While this is true, the Eldar have the Craftworlds themselves, which are far more powerful than anything the Imperium can have or create.

"all non-Primarchs factions are reduced to sidekick and sideshow status."So the Tyranids are no longer a galactic menace? The Necrons are no longer rising up and taking over worlds? The Orks are not sieging Armaggedon anymore and no longer leave vast amounts of ruin in their wake?Honestly I think that with the revelation that they can bring the dead back to life, the Eldar will likely get more and more attention, especially from Ahriman, the Thousand Sons in general, and maybe even the Death Guard. While they might not have a single character as powerful as Guilliman, they're still a major galactic player.

"Eldrad beating Abaddon is one outdated White Dwarf entry which no longer even corresponds to the canon."And yet it still happened, even though he had every reason to lose. That's the point I'm trying to get across here, Guilliman can beat Khaine, but there's no guarantee that he will.

"the Eldar also have weaker Grav Vehicles than the Imperium too."I'll have to heavily disagree with you here. For everything the Custodes/Sisters of Silence have the Eldar have something better. Either their normal grav-vehicles will be better or they have super-heavies that are better.

For somebody who seems to like Eldar a lot, it seems you like underselling them even more.

@Mah: Yeah I don't get how someone can possibly think a Phoenix Lord is even close to a Primarch either, but for some reason online quite a few people do.

But yeah the fact that the Eldar are worse Psykers and Seers than humans has irritated me for a long time. Then again Orks are worst fighters and have less rage than the Blood Angels, Tau don't have as advanced technology as the Mechanicus so really its more just about the humans always being better than everyone.

Don't even bring the Talons of the Emperor into it, Marines are already in fluff better than everyone, now we have the Marines+ too. Joy.

Guilliman's armour gives of the impression of being a natural product of its time. The 31st millennium. Why?No grenades. So even if Guilliman has Move through Cover as a MC he still strikes at I1.

Looks like a real oversight of the designer, since every marine in 40k has grenades. So why not Codex writer RG? For all his tactical acumen it never occurred to him, that having grenades would be a really good choice?

Happy to hear you've been enjoying this so far. Though, for how best to take out an army led by Guilliman, there's no single answer to be honest. It's not like there's an instant combination which can beat most things he'll throw at you, especially given how the Imperium's armies can be easily reworked or changed to suit a player's needs now.

That said, I have noticed most of the time that a mobile army with heavy firepower does tend to inflict more damage. These don't have to be extremely fast moving, but if you can rework or re-arrange your forces at ease, it makes it difficult for them to apply their bonuses in force. For example, one I favour deploying are massed forces of Razorbacks armed with assault cannons, each with a combat squad armed with one lascannon and backed by a trio of Predator Annihilators. It can be fragile, admittedly, but it tends to chew through an enemy's forces. Another one i've noticed people favouring a lot of late is Imperial Guard drop companies, particularly ones with a couple of Forge World fliers to assist with bombing enemy targets. There are people online who have written up better analysis of these though, so I am sorry if this is a little general.