craigdamage:Shadowtag thought the point of the headline was more about how this guy handled this type of situation better than the NYPD

I took it to be as a response to the often made delusional claim that 'armed defense is a myth" and that "you will only harm innocent bystanders" and or "interfere with the job of the police" ....etc....

Great, So the dude saved a Dollar General. Too bad we never have armed citizens present at these random killing sprees. This is NO Dirty Harry "fantasy" as some limp-wrist types would assert. Just once I would like to hear about someone RETURNING FIRE. I wonder the outcome........

The random killing sprees are usually in "gun free zones". You know the places where a rational law abiding citizen will...well...abide by the law, but a nutcase will stroll in shooting. Churches, schools, theaters, casinos, and military bases (I know that last one sounds odd).

There was a case a little while ago of a teacher who left his firearm in the car, complying with the law, and had to go get it when a gunman entered his school. I can't remember how many he shot before the teacher retrieved his firearm and brought it to an end.

per the article, The perps WERE armed. At that point, i don't care if you're armed with a box cutter or a sharp pencil. If you use it to threaten to kill/hurt/maim someone in order to rob them, then you deserve to be shot.

quatchi:stlbluez: if they were armed with a butter knife threatening the clerks life... it's good enough.

Article says "armed". I'm just asking "armed with what?"

If it was a a gun I say fire away and hope you get nothing but net.

If it was a knife I'd say give the morons a chance to stop and wait to get arrested.

Shooting a guy with a butter knife without at least giving him the option of standing down when you have a gun out is a pussy move and I simply can't respect it.

No disrespect.

I have been in law enforcement. A man with a knife at 20 feet can easily kill you before you have a prayer of drawing and firing. Police are training that a bladed weapon within 21 feet is a lethal threat and force is acceptable, in fact mandatory. And body armor will not stop a blade (well, maybe a butter knife)

quatchi:stlbluez: if they were armed with a butter knife threatening the clerks life... it's good enough.

Article says "armed". I'm just asking "armed with what?"

If it was a a gun I say fire away and hope you get nothing but net.

If it was a knife I'd say give the morons a chance to stop and wait to get arrested.

Shooting a guy with a butter knife without at least giving him the option of standing down when you have a gun out is a pussy move and I simply can't respect it.

No disrespect.

A butter knife can still be used to stab fatally, though they may not seem like it. Given that the distance between the robber and the armed customer was 20 feet (speculation of course, but for the purpose of

Loaded Six String:A butter knife can still be used to stab fatally, though they may not seem like it. Given that the distance between the robber and the armed customer was 20 feet (speculation of course, but for the purpose of

The problem is that you're expecting to hold a layperson to the same standard as a Law Enforcement Officer, which is not going to happen. A lay person is not going to be held to the Tueller Drill Standard. All that is going to be necessary for a court to rule in favor of him is that he felt his life was reasonably threatened by the guy holding a bladed weapon, and that he had no duty to retreat.

AngryDragon:Shooting a guy with a butter knife without at least giving him the option of standing down when you have a gun out is a pussy move and I simply can't respect it.

No disrespect.

I have been in law enforcement. A man with a knife at 20 feet can easily kill you before you have a prayer of drawing and firing. Police are training that a bladed weapon within 21 feet is a lethal threat and force is acceptable, in fact mandatory. And body armor will not stop a blade (well, maybe a butter knife)

That why I said "gun out".

I have no idea what the exact parameters of the confrontation entailed here I'm just generalizing.

I have no idea what the exact parameters of the confrontation entailed here I'm just generalizing.

Technically, if he had a gun pointed at the clerk and was threatening to kill him, the guy could have walked right up to the back of the robber and shot him in the head without saying a word, and it would have been kosher.

Blasted phone posting... at any rate it appears AngryDragon made my point for me. Holding the robber(s) at gunpoint would have 3 possible outcomes. The robber complies and waits to be arrested, the robber turns to retaliate, or the robber flees the scene, likely to attempt armed robbery again at a later date. The first option is the preferred outcome, but not guarunteed, the second outcome poses risk to everyone involved, and the third outcome is unacceptable. If a shot can be taken with minimal risk to unintended targets, it is the most logical choice, as it prevents the clerk from being shot out of impatience, negligence, or malice (again, assuming a smart shot can be made) as well as preventing future crimes being perpetrated by that robber. Recidivism amongst violent criminals is very high, and being that there is no effective rehabilitation program in place, the only end to recidivism is life imprisonment or death. It is distasteful to say, but most often true.

BronyMedic:Loaded Six String: A butter knife can still be used to stab fatally, though they may not seem like it. Given that the distance between the robber and the armed customer was 20 feet (speculation of course, but for the purpose of

The problem is that you're expecting to hold a layperson to the same standard as a Law Enforcement Officer, which is not going to happen. A lay person is not going to be held to the Tueller Drill Standard. All that is going to be necessary for a court to rule in favor of him is that he felt his life was reasonably threatened by the guy holding a bladed weapon, and that he had no duty to retreat.

Indeed, and my post would have ended up in agreement had my stupid phone not given me an issue.

BronyMedic:Technically, if he had a gun pointed at the clerk and was threatening to kill him, the guy could have walked right up to the back of the robber and shot him in the head without saying a word, and it would have been kosher.

AngryDragon:I have been in law enforcement. A man with a knife at 20 feet can easily kill you before you have a prayer of drawing and firing. Police are training that a bladed weapon within 21 feet is a lethal threat and force is acceptable, in fact mandatory. And body armor will not stop a blade (well, maybe a butter knife)

Cinaed:I'm trying to decide whether or not robbing the Dollar Store is a despicable enough act that death is the appropriate penalty.

I mean, even in Saudia Arabia they don'd kill a man for theft.

I guarantee you, talking with many Americans who have worked in Saudi, that the Saudi police would not have hesitated to increase the daily lead intake of someone who was using a gun to rob someone.

Those nice little things like Murdock v. City of Memphis don't exist in those countries. And neither does the whole thing about cruel and unusual punishment. They just amputate their hands with a machete.

And then again, you're talking about a lay person who's an armed civilian. They're not held to the same judgement or procedural standards as a Police Officer.

Should we find a nice infographic on how many people were killed with knives in each of these countries as well? Violent crime is violent crime regardless of the method. There is a root cause, or indeed many, and guns are not it.

Cinaed:I'm trying to decide whether or not robbing the Dollar Store is a despicable enough act that death is the appropriate penalty.

I mean, even in Saudia Arabia they don'd kill a man for theft.

nah... only life imprisonment.... on the 3rd conviction, having had their right arm and left foot amputated for the prior two offenses... according to sharia anyway.http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1895&CATE=12

I love how your graphic lists Switzerland, where basically every male between the ages of 20 and 30 has a real honest to God assault rifle (with select fire) at home and gun ownership is pretty much on par with the US, showing its the culture not the guns, but lets go on trying to regulate the guns, not change the culture.

Loaded Six String:Should we find a nice infographic on how many people were killed with knives in each of these countries as well? Violent crime is violent crime regardless of the method. There is a root cause, or indeed many, and guns are not it.

Guns aren't the cause, they just make it easier.

Deer hunting is popular, but moreso for those who use guns over bows. I don't know if there are any knife, fountain pen, or grenade hunting seasons for deer...

craigdamage:Shadowtag thought the point of the headline was more about how this guy handled this type of situation better than the NYPD

I took it to be as a response to the often made delusional claim that 'armed defense is a myth" and that "you will only harm innocent bystanders" and or "interfere with the job of the police" ....etc....

Great, So the dude saved a Dollar General. Too bad we never have armed citizens present at these random killing sprees. This is NO Dirty Harry "fantasy" as some limp-wrist types would assert. Just once I would like to hear about someone RETURNING FIRE. I wonder the outcome........

That's pretty much what happened to Charles Whitman. He started shooting out of a clocktower, and it gets reported on the news. Austin police didn't have longguns at the time, so people just started driving up to the police stations, and dropping off their hunting rifles. Return fire from rifles was what made Whitman move his shooting position into a narrower field of view.

He was killed when a gun owner who was carrying his gun with him, an armed off duty cop, and two other cops ran up the tower, and shot him.

soporific:AngryDragon: I have been in law enforcement. A man with a knife at 20 feet can easily kill you before you have a prayer of drawing and firing. Police are training that a bladed weapon within 21 feet is a lethal threat and force is acceptable, in fact mandatory. And body armor will not stop a blade (well, maybe a butter knife)

I mean, microwaves aren't popular simply because people like to cook food. It's a LOT easier, and faster, with much less attention to detail to pop a bag of popcorn in a microwave than to even cook JiffyPop on the stove top.

puffy999:Loaded Six String: Should we find a nice infographic on how many people were killed with knives in each of these countries as well? Violent crime is violent crime regardless of the method. There is a root cause, or indeed many, and guns are not it.

Guns aren't the cause, they just make it easier.

Deer hunting is popular, but moreso for those who use guns over bows. I don't know if there are any knife, fountain pen, or grenade hunting seasons for deer...

technically, its called "BUICK season, but you can use any car or vehicle, really.

puffy999:Loaded Six String: Recidivism amongst violent criminals is very high, and being that there is no effective rehabilitation program in place, the only end to recidivism is life imprisonment or death.