Siddown's post has already been answered by Peng and just to add a little bit more food for thought. PvE weapons are goung to be ilevel 530 (+8) at the very least coming 5.3 seeing as how it will cost only 500 PvE points to upgrade them. Anyone aquiring an ilevel 522 weapon is able to aquire a thunderforged version of it sooner or later giving it an even bigger advantage.
And while not many groups will get to kill Lei-Shen or Ra-den for that matter many on my server already have 3-4 HC's at the very least on farm. This means these people WILL aquire the heroic weapons and upgrade them fairly soon. You don't have to clear ToT to aquire much of the heroic/heroic thunderforged gear.

Originally Posted by Flaks

No, Deleth's argument is not appropriate. Because this "QQ Blizzard is catering wholly to the PvE players and my life as a PvP'er sucks" is honestly bogus. You know why it's bogus? Because the FIRST CHANGES TO PVP GEAR MADE IN MOP WERE TO ENSURE THAT PVP PLAYERS HAD AN EASIER TIME TRANSITIONING INTO PVE. I am of course speaking of PvP stats being completely removed from the ilvl conversion.

PvP gear was decent for getting into PvE at the start of Pandaria, since then it's ilevel has been lowered and it has severely fallen behind in ilevel behind the PvE gear. We're already talking about an 36 ilevel gap here comparing the current raid gear to the current Arena gear. This huge gap alone would keep you out of any decent raid.

Doing the vice versa only makes sense and should have happened a while ago; and not only to make it easier for PvE'ers to get into PvP but to get ALL players to have an easier time to get into PvP. Why you folks continue to stick to this archaic notion of "I MUST WORK FOR EVERYTHING EVEN IN A GAME AND EVEN IF MOST OTHERS DON'T LIKE IT" I'll never understand. I'm just content knowing Blizzard is no longer catering to your whims; and yes, they were catering to your whims as was shown in Cataclysm with the heroics.

Because it does not favor the actual PvP community in any kind of way. It's throwing the PvE people some candy hoping to turn PvP into another side game for them to increase their interest while doing nothing for actual PvP players aside from cheapening their game. And again, if that would be true it should be just as easy for PvP people to join into PvE, it isn't. Try getting into an ToT Raid with your 493 ilevel PvP gear.

Originally Posted by Osmeric

This is nonsense on stilts. PvP gear is perfectly fine in heroic 5 mans (unless you're a tank).

Really? My 493 PvP gear is perfectly fine for 5 man heroics, the most easiest once since the introduction of heroic dungeons tuned towards a group with ilevel 450 and rewarding awesome ilevel 463 blue's that are 30 ilevel below my gear? Who would've thought that I could use my gear for dungeons I severely outgear?

On topic, and the next hit goes to resilience and PvP power gems. Pretty much halving their effectiveness. Please tell me how this is a positive thing PvP players and does not help PvE players who're not using these gems anyway?

2. His argument is that 5.3 changes to make PvE gear more competitive in PvP is baseless?

No, his argument is that PvE gear will be much better than PvP gear, and that is baseless. He claims he shows "math", yet he never actually does. My math above might not be perfect, but it's far more than he ever presented and it totally shows that fully upgraded 522 gear will be worse for PvP than Tyrannical. You are gaining unneeded stats like extra Hit and Expertise and some useful stats at a cost of 15% damage reduction.

Further suggestion that you don't disagree on a point of fact or principle, you're just disagreeing with him because he's Deleth (though, to be fair, you do seem to also be slavering over a vested interest; a desire to be more competitive in PvP as a PvE player without having to put in the time that PvP players do).

First, I disagree with anyone who uses twisted logic to try and meet a preconceived notion. If it turned out the math showed he was right, I'd gladly admit it. I've been theorycrafting and PvPing in this game since vanilla, including being the person who wrote the Enhancement Shaman Points that was on the original WoW Wiki for PvP (although looking at Google this appears to be long gone).

Also, I have no idea where this "vested interest" notion comes from. I only PvP, that's it. I haven't been in a raid since TBC. I don't like PvE at all, I find it incredibly boring. All I do is PvP in this game, which includes plenty of World PvP (on the smaller faction on a High Pop PvP Server), so if anything I should be leaning in Deleth's direction, but I'm not since his entire argument is full of holes that he will never admit.

3. I call bullshit on the "difficulty" of getting into PvP. Some people's egos just can't handle being ground into dust when they're being killed over and over again because they have crap gear.

And that's fine, I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm saying Blizzard doesn't agree with you. They have come right out and said that it's too hard for non-PvPers to get into PvP. I'm not making a value judgement on that, I'm just reporting what they are saying.

4. I don't see what the point of highlighting the differences between PvE and PvP gear objectives are, relative to a discussion about making PvE gear more competitive in PvP. Apart from being comprehensively wrong - obtaining new gear is rewarding for PvPers - what does this have to do with your attempts to justify their decision to make PvE gear more viable in PvP?

Their gear decisions are based on the differences between PvE and PvP objectives. I think this is pretty self evident.

That's all for now, but I do eagerly await your next impotent, arm-flailing assault on reason.

I await your responses with baited breath.

Plus, at the risk of being pedantic, I don't think you know what "prejudice" actually means. I base my opinions of Deleth based on many threads where he has posted, which means it's not based on preconceived notions. He has dismissed me as a "PvE Troll" despite the fact that I don't PvE at all...which I guess would make him prejudice in the technical sense, but I'd never call him that because that would be silly. This is two people arguing about an opinion in a video game, don't devalue the word by attaching it to this first world problem.

I wonder if Blizzard is trying to inflate raid participation figures by getting people on PvP servers into raids again, for gear for world PvP.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

No, it wasn't, he expressed an opinion but said he didn't do any of the math himself. So after all your talk about me not doing any math, I do it and show you yet you can't bring yourself to acknowledge it.

Answer this simple question, is some extra int (which is good), Spell Power (again, good), stam (not horrible, but not all that important) and hit (which is useless) worth loosing 15-16% damage. You'd have to break out some serious numbers to prove that you can make up that damage in those stats because losing that much damage is huge.

I have no problem with 100% conceeding that the 2/2 upgraded 522 will be equal to Tyrannical (or close enough), I have never said otherwise. Items that are only available via 10/25 Heroics will be better, but how much better will they be? And why is that a big deal considering how few people have them and the likely hood that they are geared and spec'd for PvP in the first place.

No, his argument is that PvE gear will be much better than PvP gear, and that is baseless. He claims he shows "math", yet he never actually does. My math above might not be perfect, but it's far more than he ever presented and it totally shows that fully upgraded 522 gear will be worse for PvP than Tyrannical. You are gaining unneeded stats like extra Hit and Expertise and some useful stats at a cost of 15% damage reduction.

This means the base dmg of the 522 PvE weapon alone will be 125,05% that of the PvP weapon. Not even taking the extra strenght and so on into account. Also please remember that the Eye of the Black Prince has been changed to "or Armament of the Thunder King" and the legendary quest really isn't hard at all.

Necrotic strike with the PvE weapon for example hits for 36891 (taken from base dmg alone) while with the PvP weapon it hits for 33923 (29499+15%~ PvP power, you're still using the old formula for yours btw. 400 points will only give 1 coming 5.3 but I'll guess you did that on purpose) and that is without taking the extra stats on the PvE weapon into account.

This is the base version, coming 5.3 the same weapon WILL have ilevel 530, the very same boss has a chance to drop an weapon already ilevel 528 that could be upgraded to 536. And that's not even going into heroic mode.

You're taking a single example, applying the old PvP power and ignore weapon dmg scaling for many abilities to make it look like the PvP weapons are actually on par outside of rated PvP. Good job. You're completly ignoring how PvE people will have around 80-100k more stats, will be able to use legendary gems in their weapons/head, will have several thousand main stats more and so on.
Oh btw, the gems now also favour them seeing as how PvP gems got an 50% nerf across the board.

It was already pointed out that your math IS faulty and wont get any more true no matter how often you keep repeating it.

Yep, you're right and I'm wrong. Somehow I unchecked the 2/2 for the PvE weapon when I threw my number together. The 2/2 will hit about 8.5% harder in World PvP/Duels.

but I'll guess you did that on purpose

No, I just made a mistake. If you want to think that I'd knowing lie to try and win an argument about a formula in a video game despite how easy it is to show that I messed up the math, go ahead but I can assure you I was just mistaken.

No, his argument is that PvE gear will be much better than PvP gear, and that is baseless. He claims he shows "math", yet he never actually does. My math above might not be perfect, but it's far more than he ever presented and it totally shows that fully upgraded 522 gear will be worse for PvP than Tyrannical. You are gaining unneeded stats like extra Hit and Expertise and some useful stats at a cost of 15% damage reduction.

Extra hit and expertise can be reforged. My Enh Shaman innately has more Hit and less Expertise than I'd like, but a little reforging puts them close enough to cap to be comfortably over without being excessively wasted stats.

Originally Posted by Siddown

First, I disagree with anyone who uses twisted logic to try and meet a preconceived notion. If it turned out the math showed he was right, I'd gladly admit it. I've been theorycrafting and PvPing in this game since vanilla, including being the person who wrote the Enhancement Shaman Points that was on the original WoW Wiki for PvP (although looking at Google this appears to be long gone).

While I wouldn't say that I'm sure PvE gear will be better than PvP gear accross the board (and I don't think that's what he's saying, either), I can see it possibly being better under certain circumstances. I'll reserve judgment on that until I see it for myself.

Originally Posted by Siddown

Also, I have no idea where this "vested interest" notion comes from. I only PvP, that's it. I haven't been in a raid since TBC. I don't like PvE at all, I find it incredibly boring. All I do is PvP in this game, which includes plenty of World PvP (on the smaller faction on a High Pop PvP Server), so if anything I should be leaning in Deleth's direction, but I'm not since his entire argument is full of holes that he will never admit.

My apologies, but that is why I qualified the assertion with the word 'seem'.

Originally Posted by Siddown

And that's fine, I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm saying Blizzard doesn't agree with you. They have come right out and said that it's too hard for non-PvPers to get into PvP. I'm not making a value judgement on that, I'm just reporting what they are saying.

Now you're revising history, because your contribution to this thread has been more than simply re-stating Blizzard employee opinions.

Originally Posted by Siddown

Plus, at the risk of being pedantic, I don't think you know what "prejudice" actually means. I base my opinions of Deleth based on many threads where he has posted, which means it's not based on preconceived notions. He has dismissed me as a "PvE Troll" despite the fact that I don't PvE at all...which I guess would make him prejudice in the technical sense, but I'd never call him that because that would be silly. This is two people arguing about an opinion in a video game, don't devalue the word by attaching it to this first world problem.

Apparently, you don't seem to understand what 'prejudice' actually means. "I base my opinions of Deleth based on many threads where he has posted" is precisely prejudicial. It would not be if you were basing your opinion of him, or your counter-argument, solely on what he has stated in this thread. You were not arguing against his post here on its own merits to the exclusion of all his previous utterances on any subject, you practically outright-stated "Oh, that's Deleth, he's always wrong so he must be wrong here, too." There is no need to invoke Deleth's previous comments in other threads, if your case is strong enough. The path you chose was petty, childish and appealing to other readers to judge Deleth and not his argument.

Determining someone is wrong because you think they were wrong in the past is just as prejudicial as not hiring someone with German heritage because you think all Germans are Nazis.

Determining someone is wrong because you think they were wrong in the past is just as prejudicial as not hiring someone with German heritage because you think all Germans are Nazis.

Really? You went there? With all the other examples you could have given, you had to Godwin?

FWIW, I determined he was wrong because I had made a mistake. My knowledge and reason were wrong, and now that I have been alerted to that mistake, I have admitted that he is wrong.

While I might not agree with the weight Deleth is putting in the fact that in World PvP high level PvE gear will be better, that doesn't change the fact that he is right and I am wrong. If you actually had read the end of the thread you would know that, but that's cool, you had better things to do.

Really? You went there? With all the other examples you could have given, you had to Godwin?

FWIW, I determined he was wrong because I had made a mistake. Where your silly nazi argument doesn't hold water is there have been many threads about this exact same issue where he has expressed the same view (a further FWIW, this was also before the PvP Power nerf on PTR, which would have actually made up that difference). Actually, check that, your silly nazi argument doesn't hold water no matter what. We are two people arguing about a video game.

While I might not agree with the weight Deleth is putting in the fact that in World PvP high level PvE gear will be better, that doesn't change the fact that he is right and I am wrong. If you actually had read the end of the thread you would know that, but that's cool, you had better things to do.

I was originally going to go with "not hiring a black person", but was 99% sure that of all the hypothetical reasons I could come up with as to why someone would invoke prejudice to avoid hiring someone of African descent, I'd be pinned with the racist card and probably infracted for it. But you're missing the point, again, which has nothing to do with nazis and everything to do with the nature of prejudice.

And I'm sorry I didn't read the last few posts, it might surprise you to learn that they weren't there when I opened the reply box. I'm not a fast poster; I revise, remove and rewrite sections constantly, so it took me a while to produce that post.

But you're missing the point, again, which has nothing to do with nazis and everything to do with the nature of prejudice.

I get what point you were trying to make, it was just bad. You easily could have picked an example like in court the jury isn't allowed to know about a defendent's previous convictions because it might prejudice them when deliberating on a current trial. Much simpler, and much more appropriate.

But of course, even in that case you'd be wrong, but at least it'd be a lot closer to what you were trying to say. Listen, I get exaggeration for sake of effect, but you're example doesn't hold water even in the most liberal interpretations.

This is nonsense on stilts. PvP gear is perfectly fine in heroic 5 mans (unless you're a tank).

Actually it's even better for tanks. Since MoP brought active mitigation, most tanks want hit>exp and then either haste/mastery or crit as their main tanking stat. I was able to tank ToeS very easily in half malev 470 gear on my paladin. The only pve item i had was the 450 engineering ghost iron dragonling trinket.

For DPS it's also a very good set to start out raiding with, my warlock in the current honor gear does around 85-90k dps, which is enough for most of current normal modes even.

Whatever people say, you can easily use pvp gear for pve, the only pieces that will stop you are your trinkets, but you can very easily buy valor point trinkets in their stead.

The only thing I would like to see is that we would get higher itemlevell pvp fear so that it keeps being decent for pve, if they still downscale it for rated pvp that is. I like an even playing field in pvp, but overly punishing someome that choses one path over another is a bit too harsh.

Along the same way, I won't mind pve gear usable in pvp, as long as it doesn't become better than it. If ithey both work in both paths, one should be slightly less usefull than the other (80%).

I still don't understand the blatant hateful comments some posters have in this thread though, seeing more bpdies to fill in the ranks in pve makes me happy, and seeing pvers able to dabble into some pvp also makes me happy, why are you guys so against this?

I get what point you were trying to make, it was just bad. You easily could have picked an example like in court the jury isn't allowed to know about a defendent's previous convictions because it might prejudice them when deliberating on a current trial. Much simpler, and much more appropriate.

But of course, even in that case you'd be wrong, but at least it'd be a lot closer to what you were trying to say. Listen, I get exaggeration for sake of effect, but you're example doesn't hold water even in the most liberal interpretations.

Deleth was right, you really don't take well to having unpleasant truths revealed to you. I've pointed out what you said and how it met a textbook definition of the word, but you still refuse to acknowledge it. You can admit you made an oversight in your calculations, but not that you (probably accidentally) treated someone prejudicially. I'm not saying you have a predilection for it - I wouldn't presume (or be bothered) to trawl through your post history to find examples of when/if you did it before. Frankly, that wouldn't be relevant to this instance.

No, Deleth's argument is not appropriate. Because this "QQ Blizzard is catering wholly to the PvE players and my life as a PvP'er sucks" is honestly bogus. You know why it's bogus? Because the FIRST CHANGES TO PVP GEAR MADE IN MOP WERE TO ENSURE THAT PVP PLAYERS HAD AN EASIER TIME TRANSITIONING INTO PVE. I am of course speaking of PvP stats being completely removed from the ilvl conversion.

Doing the vice versa only makes sense and should have happened a while ago; and not only to make it easier for PvE'ers to get into PvP but to get ALL players to have an easier time to get into PvP. Why you folks continue to stick to this archaic notion of "I MUST WORK FOR EVERYTHING EVEN IN A GAME AND EVEN IF MOST OTHERS DON'T LIKE IT" I'll never understand. I'm just content knowing Blizzard is no longer catering to your whims; and yes, they were catering to your whims as was shown in Cataclysm with the heroics.

Yes. The 458 PvP gear was really nice for PvE as well. Almost as good as PvE gear with additional PvP stats. But then... 476, 483 and some 496 PvE gear was freeloot while 483 PvP gear took some time to obtain. Piece by piece. Not to mention the upgrades. With 3000 Valor each week and most items received through rolls, there was a lot Valor left to upgrade PvE stuff to 502. When did we upgrade our PvP items? Took a lot longer. It was still possible to run HoF and ToES LFR in PvP gear.

What do we have now? 476 compared to 502. I just did ToT LFR for the pet, but it felt a bit awkward to compete in 476 PvP gear.

Let´s see if 496 compared to 522 feels any better. Or 496 compared to upgraded 522 (530). I highly doubt this.

What if we compare the best with the best? Ouch. Still 496 here, but 549 there. ôO This doesn´t work.

So, PvP stuff is good enough to be tolerated in LFR, but PvE gear > PvP gear in WPvP? This sucks.

Honestly I absolutely loved the WotLK/tBC system where EVERY piece of relevant PvP loot necessated a certain rating; which goes completely against what I've been saying here.

But why have I been going against my own personal wishes? Because that's the way the game's been heading. Going back to WotLK/tBC type PvP gearing is only going to hurt the game MAJORLY. Players are used to a certain style of play and going back to an older style is going to piss a lot of people off like it did with heroics in the beginning of Cataclysm and like it has/will with the return of raid tiering in MoP.

Blizzard is moving forward for better or for worse. All we can do is ensure that the movement forward is more to our liking without shouting at Blizzard to "go back to the good old days". And making the entrance into PvP easier/quicker than ever is the best way to go about it.

---------- Post added 2013-05-02 at 08:51 PM ----------

Honor gear is utterly useless. A full malevolent geared player will get absolutely annihilated by a player of equal or even lesser skill in full tyrannical gear. And this late into the season if you're trying to conquest cap, you'll be facing mostly tyrannical geared players.

so your saying that a new 90 should be giving a full set of arena gear because they started playing late,lmfao.new player are going to get there asses kicked anyway,good pvp will get there asses kick by better pvpers.its a latter someone will always get there ass kicked.you say honor gear is useless,then why is it it game?can a fully heroic geared pver out dps a fresh green pve gear player,yes.so why have quest greens in game at all?

like i said in my post and you "forgot" to comment on-honor gear only takes a day or 2 to get a FULL SET.thats your ENTRY set into pvp,no need to reduce better geared players because new/non pvpers.

---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 09:56 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Osmeric

There were no ratings requirements on arena gear in S1 and S2, and only on shoulders in S3.

gloves where 1650 if i remember correctly,along with what others have said.blizz removed rating requirements on the old seasons gear,once the new season came out.

---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 09:59 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Chireru93

few thousand gold for a full crafted set? I would love to know what server you're on. on my server just a month ago it was like 1k for a single piece of crafted dreadful leather gear. now it's like 400g each.

then you gotta consider that being a pvper, you don't really make much gold. I jump on, pvp, and that's it nowadays, so I don't have hardly any kind of income, because you can't get gold from doing battlegrounds. I make enough to gem/enchant any upgrades and that's it.

then look at how long it takes you to get a full set. say a battleground win nets you 500 honor, average, just for the purpose of simplicity. it will take about 20,000 honor or so to get a full set of malevolent. that's 40 battlegrounds you have to win, lets say an average of 20 minutes per bg, that equates to 800 minutes, or 12 hours and 40 minutes of grinding. meanwhile, until you get your 7th or 8th piece, including weapon (8th or 9th piece if you dual-wield) you're going to be doing trashy damage, dying within seconds, possibly ok healing, and won't be able to fc for anything. beyond that it gets better.

so, yes, there is a gear gap. expecting someone to "buy crafted" is as bad of an excuse as "buy crafted epics to get into ToT normal", it's just not that easy. then you have to think, a full 458 dreadful set is going to do awful in arenas vs full malev or even half+ tyrannical sets.

lmfao-can i have some of what your smoking please?i have posted "f few times" how easy and fast it is to get a full honor set.also l2p and level up your professions=gold.it sure is hard to run around and say mine/herb while you q for bgs right.

---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 10:06 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Henako

Holy fuck, meathead shows up and the thread gets so much harder to read.

PvP should be about besting your opponent, not about who is wearing what. Gear advantages undermine the competitive nature of it, in my opinion.

holy fuck henako shows up and right off the bat starts running his mouth TRYING to take cheap shots at people before he even talks about THE THREAD TOPIC,go figure.like i said before wise ass,i could care less if i make some type o's,i dont use word or edit.why should i?so someone like you can say,o wow look thats a well written paragraph,lmfao.

---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 10:07 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Henako

Holy fuck, meathead shows up and the thread gets so much harder to read.

PvP should be about besting your opponent, not about who is wearing what. Gear advantages undermine the competitive nature of it, in my opinion.

same culd be said for pve then right?its about beating an npc as a team,so why should players out dps/heal others?

---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 10:10 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Inahu

You must be joking. There's absolutely no way you could be serious about that first point. Have you ever tried taking PvP gear into even 5-man heroics? Utter garbage. And how many PvPers are actually interested in transitioning to PvE? Content is vastly simpler and less dynamic than PvP play, all you have to do is memorise a few fights and that's it. I'd be too afraid that the lazy gameplay style would impact my PvPing.

What you don't seem to have grasped from my post is that it is already incredibly easy to get into PvP. If you don't like to die all the time, why not just run 5-mans to get JP, then convert that to honor and buy full Malev without ever stepping into a BG? Anyone complaining that PvP is too hard to get into does not have a leg to stand on, what they're doing now is lowering the bar from "minimal requirement" to "absolutely no requirement". It's pathetic, and those of you clamouring for it are similarly pathetic.

nice post-but all he will counter you with is,honor gear is worthless and not state its the STARTING set for pvp.

---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 10:13 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Siddown

No, his argument is that PvE gear will be much better than PvP gear, and that is baseless. He claims he shows "math", yet he never actually does. My math above might not be perfect, but it's far more than he ever presented and it totally shows that fully upgraded 522 gear will be worse for PvP than Tyrannical. You are gaining unneeded stats like extra Hit and Expertise and some useful stats at a cost of 15% damage reduction.

First, I disagree with anyone who uses twisted logic to try and meet a preconceived notion. If it turned out the math showed he was right, I'd gladly admit it. I've been theorycrafting and PvPing in this game since vanilla, including being the person who wrote the Enhancement Shaman Points that was on the original WoW Wiki for PvP (although looking at Google this appears to be long gone).

Also, I have no idea where this "vested interest" notion comes from. I only PvP, that's it. I haven't been in a raid since TBC. I don't like PvE at all, I find it incredibly boring. All I do is PvP in this game, which includes plenty of World PvP (on the smaller faction on a High Pop PvP Server), so if anything I should be leaning in Deleth's direction, but I'm not since his entire argument is full of holes that he will never admit.

And that's fine, I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm saying Blizzard doesn't agree with you. They have come right out and said that it's too hard for non-PvPers to get into PvP. I'm not making a value judgement on that, I'm just reporting what they are saying.

Their gear decisions are based on the differences between PvE and PvP objectives. I think this is pretty self evident.

I await your responses with baited breath.

Plus, at the risk of being pedantic, I don't think you know what "prejudice" actually means. I base my opinions of Deleth based on many threads where he has posted, which means it's not based on preconceived notions. He has dismissed me as a "PvE Troll" despite the fact that I don't PvE at all...which I guess would make him prejudice in the technical sense, but I'd never call him that because that would be silly. This is two people arguing about an opinion in a video game, don't devalue the word by attaching it to this first world problem.

"They have come right out and said that it's too hard for non-PvPers to get into PvP."

blizz has also said things like, cc is fine and they are happy with it in pvp.sure makes you wonder right?