Comments on 'Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth'TypePad2013-02-16T23:53:48ZMark Thomahttp://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/tag:typepad.com,2003:http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/02/equal-opportunity-our-national-myth/comments/atom.xml/Shane Morgan commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee9789ad4970d2013-03-18T05:50:04Z2013-03-18T05:50:13ZShane Morganhttp://profile.typepad.com/morganshaneI feel ecstatic I found you website and blogs. http://www.bathandtilevictoria.com/kitchen/<p>I feel ecstatic I found you website and blogs.<br />
<a href="http://www.bathandtilevictoria.com/kitchen/" rel="nofollow">http://www.bathandtilevictoria.com/kitchen/</a></p>Alan MacDonald commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36f6b7aa970b2013-02-19T01:46:04Z2013-02-19T01:46:14ZAlan MacDonaldhttp://profile.typepad.com/alanmacdonaldI posted this on-topic and non-profane comment on Stiglitz's article about the "Equality Myth" to the NYT early this morning....<p>I posted this on-topic and non-profane comment on Stiglitz&#39;s article about the &quot;Equality Myth&quot; to the NYT early this morning.</p>
<p>But somehow the Times did not include it among reader comments. And yet there is a belief that mentioning Empire is not a taboo subject in America, eh?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>&quot;There is always great and vast inequality within all Empires,<br />
particularly this disguised Global Empire hiding behind the facade of a modernized and TWO-Party &#39;Vichy&#39; sham, and employing a bigger &quot;National Myth than Equality&quot; --- the myth of democracy.</p>
<p>Best luck and love to the fast expanding &#39;Occupy Empire&#39;<br />
educational and revolutionary movement against this deceitful,<br />
guileful, disguised EMPIRE, which can&#39;t so easily be identified as wearing RedCoats, Red Stars, nor funny looking Nazi helmets ---- quite yet!</p>
<p>Liberty, democracy, justice, and equality<br />
Over<br />
Violent/&#39;Vichy&#39; Rel 2.0<br />
Empire,</p>
<p>Alan MacDonald<br />
Sanford, Maine</p>
<p>We don&#39;t merely have a gun/fear problem, or a &#39;Fiscal Cliff&#39;<br />
problem, or an expanding wars problem, or a &#39;drone assassinations&#39; problem, or a vast income &amp; wealth inequality problem, or a Wall Street &#39;looting&#39; problem, or a Global Warming and environmental death-spiral problem, or a domestic tyranny NDAA FISA spying problem, or, or, or, or .... ad nauseum --- we have a hidden EMPIRE cancerous<br />
tumor which is the prime CAUSE of all these &#39;symptom problems&#39;.&quot;</p>cm commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d41248115970c2013-02-18T20:10:46Z2013-02-18T20:10:46ZcmIt's only stealing when it's illegal. And as the German proverb goes, where there's no prosecutor, there isn't a judge...<p>It&#39;s only stealing when it&#39;s illegal. And as the German proverb goes, where there&#39;s no prosecutor, there isn&#39;t a judge either.<br />
</p>cm commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36f52165970b2013-02-18T19:58:40Z2013-02-18T19:58:40ZcmThe following decade saw a boom in offshoring and little investment in local labor (large supply overhang), and later companies...<p>The following decade saw a boom in offshoring and little investment in local labor (large supply overhang), and later companies waking up to the reality that backfilling attrition and compensating for the loss of experience from still-youngish industry labor pools (covering local time zone!) was again difficult (who could have known). Some of that could be replaced by bringing in trained-up talent from offshore offices, but in some affected sectors companies again have to make a bit more effort to hang on to their existing staff. But the overall picture is mixed - there are still pools of experienced, if a bit older, folks who don&#39;t run away and who can be reactivated, usually on a project/contract basis.<br />
</p>cm commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36f5202b970b2013-02-18T19:57:39Z2013-02-18T19:57:39ZcmThe Y2K/dotcom time tech industry, and subsequent bust, has provided a case study for my "keeping the troops happy" point....<p>The Y2K/dotcom time tech industry, and subsequent bust, has provided a case study for my &quot;keeping the troops happy&quot; point. Due to a lot of startup funding and the Y2K deadline crunch, there was a large local/sectoral demand for warm bodies, particularly the younger crowd trained (or claiming to be) in the latest hot technologies, compelling companies to provide perks, entertainment, and other retention efforts or recruiting incentives that were in cases bordering on the ridiculous. In some hotspots housing was becoming hard to find, leading to generous relocation and housing assistance deals. With the bust all of that was quickly gone, and things reverted to &quot;what you don&#39;t like it here, why don&#39;t you take a look outside the window&quot;.<br />
</p>cm commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36f4fe05970b2013-02-18T19:27:18Z2013-02-18T19:27:18ZcmAs to the American/European post-WW2 era, I'm not entirely sure what was cause and what effect, but there was massive...<p>As to the American/European post-WW2 era, I&#39;m not entirely sure what was cause and what effect, but there was massive investment in technological and economic development combined with concessions to labor to help undermine or prevent socialist/communist movements, the expression of pre-revolutionary unrest in those days. As automation was still in its infancy, this created large demand for labor at favorable conditions (or so we are told). With much higher levels of automation and access to global labor, keeping the troops happy has declined in significance.<br />
</p>cm commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee8982534970d2013-02-18T19:26:57Z2013-02-18T19:26:57ZcmTo large extent it comes down to that when there is a sufficient supply of talent/labor to do all the...<p>To large extent it comes down to that when there is a sufficient supply of talent/labor to do all the things deemed necessary, an individual doesn&#39;t count for much. This reasoning is a bit circular as what is deemed necessary is not entirely independent of labor supply.</p>
<p>Misery has always been greatest when/where there have been more people than needed to maintain the prevailing socioeconomic paradigm (keep on the lights, etc.), whether as a result of population growth trends or economic shocks.<br />
</p>cm commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d41243825970c2013-02-18T19:05:29Z2013-02-18T19:05:29ZcmDon't forget students staging a sit-in being doused with pepper spray.<p>Don&#39;t forget students staging a sit-in being doused with pepper spray.<br />
</p>socialtraderz.com commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee89671de970d2013-02-18T12:51:32Z2013-02-18T12:51:32Zsocialtraderz.comhttp://socialtraderz.com/social-trading-faqs/It is really hard to solve this problem as it is hard to put equality in many things. That is...<p>It is really hard to solve this problem as it is hard to put equality in many things. That is life. Maybe a very good leader can put solution to this. However in the business, every trader now has a chance to succeed even if he is only a beginner. By joining a social trading site like eToro, he will be allowed a real time analysis of individual trader performance which means he can copy the technique of the successful trader that he follows. And with that strategy, he can finally have the chance to succeed.</p>MCX TIPS commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d4121d116970c2013-02-18T09:43:33Z2013-02-18T09:43:33ZMCX TIPShttp://www.epicresearch.co/products/commodity-tipsits really to good thank you so much for nice nice sharing<p>its really to good thank you so much for nice nice sharing<br />
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</p>Intraday Stock Tips commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee8959f53970d2013-02-18T09:30:14Z2013-02-18T09:30:14ZIntraday Stock Tipshttp://www.epicresearch.co/products/premium-stock-combo-pack-tipsI am very much pleased with the contents you have mentioned. I enjoyed every little bit part of it.It contains...<p>I am very much pleased with the contents you have mentioned. I enjoyed every little bit part of it.It contains truly information. I want to thank you for this informative read; I really appreciate sharing this great.<br />
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</p>Watermelonpunch commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee894c0db970d2013-02-18T04:46:29Z2013-02-18T04:46:42ZWatermelonpunchhttp://profile.typepad.com/watermelonpunch1I'll agree that talented & gifted individuals should be afforded the opportunity to also offer what they have to the...<p>I&#39;ll agree that talented &amp; gifted individuals should be afforded the opportunity to also offer what they have to the world, and do right by themselves in the process.</p>
<p>However, I believe that focusing on them is the wrong way to go about things.</p>
<p>It&#39;s backward!!</p>
<p>I think if the focus was on treating the garbage collectors &amp; ditch diggers, and all the others who must (or choose to) work doing such things, as having a merit to civilization (WHICH THEY DO), and afford them the opportunity to at least survive well, if not flourish... then the equality of opportunity WOULD TAKE CARE OF ITSELF.</p>
<p>If the the people working at the landfills &amp; in the hospital kitchens, etc., are paid a living wage, it will naturally follow that they, and their children, will have broader opportunities and the necessary environment supporting an ability to take advantage of those opportunities.</p>anne commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee893d392970d2013-02-18T00:21:23Z2013-02-18T00:21:23Zannehttp://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam01myeruoft http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam02myeruoft http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam03myeruoft<p><a href="http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam01myeruoft" rel="nofollow">http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam01myeruoft</a><br />
<a href="http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam02myeruoft" rel="nofollow">http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam02myeruoft</a><br />
<a href="http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam03myeruoft" rel="nofollow">http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam03myeruoft</a></p>anne commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee893cf43970d2013-02-18T00:16:05Z2013-02-18T00:16:05ZanneWell done: http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam03myeriala c. 1908-1910 History of the great American fortunes By Gustavus Myers<p>Well done:</p>
<p><a href="http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam03myeriala" rel="nofollow">http://archive.org/details/historyofgreatam03myeriala</a></p>
<p>c. 1908-1910</p>
<p>History of the great American fortunes<br />
By Gustavus Myers</p>Dan Riker commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee893b38f970d2013-02-17T23:43:23Z2013-02-17T23:43:31ZDan Rikerhttp://profile.typepad.com/6p017d40f6d41b970cA book I have relied on considerably for information about the robber barons, their business dealings, what they paid their...<p>A book I have relied on considerably for information about the robber barons, their business dealings, what they paid their workers and how much money they made, is Gustavus Myers. HISTORY OF THE GREAT AMERICAN FORTUNES. I haven&#39;t found another book with as much detail. It was first published in 1907-09 in three volumes, but the edition I use is the one volume Modern Library edition of 1936. Myers rewrote his original work and updated it.</p>cm commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36f07d17970b2013-02-17T23:35:04Z2013-02-17T23:35:04ZcmIOW people may not have had their own resources but businesses probably arranged to have some labor brought in. These...<p>IOW people may not have had their own resources but businesses probably arranged to have some labor brought in. These days it&#39;s called &quot;relocation package&quot;, I&#39;m sure they had similar things then.</p>cm commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36f07be1970b2013-02-17T23:33:39Z2013-02-17T23:33:39ZcmThen who did all the work in the new territories? I'm willing to believe the poor didn't move into a...<p>Then who did all the work in the new territories? I&#39;m willing to believe the poor didn&#39;t move into a life of leisure, but surely this was before automation, with plenty of demand for commodity labor. There was some importation of labor from Asia and south of the border in the South/West, but much of the labor was probably from back east?</p>save_the_rustbelt commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411fc143970c2013-02-17T23:10:19Z2013-02-17T23:10:19Zsave_the_rustbeltyep<p>yep</p>anne commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411fb8c9970c2013-02-17T22:59:06Z2013-02-17T22:59:06ZanneNicely argued.<p>Nicely argued.</p>dale coberly commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411fa001970c2013-02-17T22:31:32Z2013-02-17T22:31:32Zdale coberlyBlorch I agree with you about what Stigliz misses, but I think you may be being a little hard on...<p>Blorch</p>
<p>I agree with you about what Stigliz misses, but I think you may be being a little hard on him.</p>
<p>Read his book &quot;The Price of Inequality.&quot; He seems to have a pretty good handle on what is happening to us.</p>
<p>[except about Social Security... he doesn&#39;t understand that SS is paid for by the workers for a reason, and they can continue to pay for it without some stupid fix like &quot;tax the rich&quot; or &quot;raise the retirement age&quot; or &quot;modest benefit cut&quot; or &quot;means testing.&quot; for eighty cents per week per year, workers can keep Social Security forever, with the same retirement age and with benefits that keep up with the rising standard of living.]</p>NKlein1553 commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36f0344b970b2013-02-17T22:09:38Z2013-02-17T22:09:46ZNKlein1553http://profile.typepad.com/nolankleinI'm certainly no expert on the period(s) in question and don't feel like going through the trouble of using the...<p>I&#39;m certainly no expert on the period(s) in question and don&#39;t feel like going through the trouble of using the google machine to dig up some studies so I&#39;ll yield. Mostly I just really enjoyed &quot;Life on the Mississippi&quot; and recently read that Orwell essay, which I also enjoyed a great deal, so I felt like posting it. Certainly Twain&#39;s early work feels like a social history of men &quot;free from the fear of the sack&quot; and it jives with the history we&#39;re taught as high school students and undergrads, but I suppose feelings and high school history can be suspect.</p>DrDick commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36f0128f970b2013-02-17T21:35:47Z2013-02-17T21:35:47ZDrDickIIRC, most migrants in that era did not end up markedly better off than they had been before they moved....<p>IIRC, most migrants in that era did not end up markedly better off than they had been before they moved. It is also worth noting that most of the westward immigrants were modestly well off (&quot;middle class&quot;) and not poor, as the latter generally did not have the resources to move.</p>dale coberly commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411f4f1f970c2013-02-17T21:09:40Z2013-02-17T21:09:40Zdale coberlyanne maybe not much. "adjusting for inflation but not standard of living" is what they want to do with Social...<p>anne</p>
<p>maybe not much. &quot;adjusting for inflation but not standard of living&quot; is what they want to do with Social Security. it&#39;s a criminal way to see that old people and other lesser folk can live at a cave man standard of living while the rest of us enjoy the fruits of their contribution to rising standards of living.</p>
<p>and, at the risk of stepping on my own point, if minimum wages today are about what they were in 1906 &quot;without foodstamps etc&quot; we need to recognize that in fact we do provide foodstamps etc. so the &quot;poor&quot; worker today is almost certainly better off than the poor worker a hundred years ago.</p>
<p>but this is a point the bad right likes to make to justify the level of poverty today. i would suggest, as perhaps Riker is saying, that living on any kind of &quot;welfare&quot; is still &quot;poor.&quot; we would be a far better country to live in, even for the rich, if everyone made a decent wage, and that wage was within striking range of &quot;average&quot; and average was within striking range of &quot;successful.&quot;</p>
<p>i am not too worried about the super rich, except where they got that way by stealing.. like the general run of bankers and ceo&#39;s.</p>anne commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36eff586970b2013-02-17T21:08:28Z2013-02-17T21:08:28ZanneWhen possible, do set down readings that we can look to. The matter is important, and I at least need...<p>When possible, do set down readings that we can look to. The matter is important, and I at least need a better historical framework.</p>NKlein1553 commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36efe955970b2013-02-17T21:00:13Z2013-02-17T21:00:31ZNKlein1553http://profile.typepad.com/nolankleinTwain lived through a lot. I think it depends on the "era" you are talking about. You're absolutely correct about...<p>Twain lived through a lot. I think it depends on the &quot;era&quot; you are talking about. You&#39;re absolutely correct about the Post-Civil War Gilded Age era, but in the period Twain wrote about in his earlier works (Pre-Civil War Manifest Destiny Period) I believe there was mobility for white males willing to relocate westward at least. This opportunity was made possible by the displacement of Native Americans, but still I think it was real.</p>anne commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411f0da6970c2013-02-17T20:18:42Z2013-02-17T20:18:42Zannehttp://www.online-literature.com/upton_sinclair/jungle/ 1906 The Jungle By Upton Sinclair [ If possible, suggest a chapter or other specific readings as on railroads...<p><a href="http://www.online-literature.com/upton_sinclair/jungle/" rel="nofollow">http://www.online-literature.com/upton_sinclair/jungle/</a></p>
<p>1906</p>
<p>The Jungle<br />
By Upton Sinclair</p>
<p>[ If possible, suggest a chapter or other specific readings as on railroads 100 years and more ago. ]</p>anne commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36efaf0e970b2013-02-17T20:11:49Z2013-02-17T20:11:49ZanneI've used a number of the available inflation calculators for a book I am writing and they all show that...<p>I&#39;ve used a number of the available inflation calculators for a book I am writing and they all show that in real terms, wages paid at the lowest end, at the meatpacking plants, at the Carnegie steel plants, even on the railroads, were about what the minimum wage is today....</p>
<p>[ While not asking for data analysis before publication, supposing that this is precisely so what are we to make of a situation in which wages in several industries in 1906 or more than 100 years ago were about what the minimum wage is today?</p>
<p>How are we to think of such a possibility or finding? I am not at all sure how to discuss such a possibility. ]</p>Dan Riker commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36ef9bbb970b2013-02-17T19:57:51Z2013-02-17T19:57:51ZDan Rikerhttp://www.danriker.comI've used a number of the available inflation calculators for a book I am writing and they all show that...<p>I&#39;ve used a number of the available inflation calculators for a book I am writing and they all show that in real terms, wages paid at the lowest end, at the meatpacking plants, at the Carnegie steel plants, even on the railroads, were about what the minimum wage is today. And, on those wages, there was actual starvation in the U.S. If it were not for foodstamps, the employment tax credit, etc. there would be little difference today for millions of people.</p>Paine commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411ee153970c2013-02-17T19:41:06Z2013-02-17T19:41:06ZPainehttp://Stopmebeforeivoteagain.orgExactly<p>Exactly </p>The Blorch commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36ef89d3970b2013-02-17T19:40:36Z2013-02-17T19:40:36ZThe BlorchYou nailed it. Davos Joe is an elitist snob. He only has pity for the enormously talented people excluded from...<p>You nailed it. Davos Joe is an elitist snob. He only has pity for the enormously talented people excluded from getting the merit points associated with education due to the high cost of education. Or else he pities the highly merited career woman who can&#39;t break the glass ceiling. He could care less about talentless Joe Six Packs of the world. In other words, he could care less about most people. He only wants to be around young, smart, talented people on whom to bestow his merit points, as a University Professor.</p>
<p>Can you believe it? Children are starving to death in Africa and all Davos Joe can whine about is some career woman with stock options, a company car, gold plated health care, a pension, a vacation home, sick pay, maternity leave, all the creature comforts money can buy, but, alas, this poor soul has bumped her head on the glass ceiling. Poor baby!</p>
<p>Davos Joe expounds on what would make the world better for himself and a few other elite opinion makers. His ideas have nothing to offer the great unwashed.</p>The Blorch commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36ef78d5970b2013-02-17T19:24:15Z2013-02-17T19:24:15ZThe BlorchWhen governments fear the people, there are bread and circuses. Of course, the fear is mutual but the government has...<p><br />
When governments fear the people, there are bread and circuses. Of course, the fear is mutual but the government has the upper hand.</p>dale coberly commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee89295bb970d2013-02-17T19:05:38Z2013-02-17T19:05:38Zdale coberlyWatermelon punch, Second best, Dan Riker I think you are on to something. Stigliz is right about many things, but...<p>Watermelon punch, Second best, Dan Riker</p>
<p>I think you are on to something. Stigliz is right about many things, but he overlooks the fact that a Harvard Degree is not something we all should aspire to, or even an equal opportunity to. We need to find a way to see that garbage collectors can have a decent life.</p>
<p>This would include &quot;equal opportunity&quot; but it must also include somewhat more equal outcome for those who don&#39;t grow up to be college professors or sellers of financial instruments. By equal outcome I most definite do not mean welfare. I can&#39;t see any reason why the cleaning lady who makes it possible for the lawyer to spend an extra hour making a hundred dollars, hasn&#39;t provided him sufficient &quot;value&quot; to deserve at least a decent share of that hundred bucks... as an honest wage.</p>
<p>&quot;Equal opportunity&quot; is all too likely to become &quot;well,you had your chance.. now you are a failure.&quot;</p>
<p>Paine says, not very clearly, &quot;value added is not uniquely determined.&quot; He means, I hope, that the wages we pay &quot;the least of these&quot; are determined by &quot;economic&quot; forces, that are mostly determined by power and a shameful way of treating those who have less of it.</p>anne commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee8929259970d2013-02-17T19:02:20Z2013-02-17T19:02:20ZanneReduce the out of wedlock birth rate to that of the 1950s, and I suspect that will solve a major...<p> Reduce the out of wedlock birth rate to that of the 1950s, and I suspect that will solve a major part of the chasm between the &#39;haves&#39; and &#39;have nots&#39;! </p>
<p>[ Where is the current and historical data? ]</p>DrDick commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411eae8d970c2013-02-17T18:58:01Z2013-02-17T18:58:01ZDrDickEspecially as long as all the gains in productivity are channeled into the top 1% rather than into the pockets...<p>Especially as long as all the gains in productivity are channeled into the top 1% rather than into the pockets of working people who will spend it. </p>DrDick commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411eab3d970c2013-02-17T18:56:26Z2013-02-17T18:56:26ZDrDickThere have been times (or places) where mobility has been greater, but it has never been really strong. The only...<p>There have been times (or places) where mobility has been greater, but it has never been really strong. The only real exceptions were following the two world wars. Twain&#39;s era is most notable for its oerall lack of mobility and concentration of wealth and income (comparable to the present).</p>anne commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee8928416970d2013-02-17T18:54:29Z2013-02-17T18:54:29ZanneThe minimum wage today, in real terms, is about the same wage paid to the meat packing workers when Upton...<p> The minimum wage today, in real terms, is about the same wage paid to the meat packing workers when Upton Sinclair wrote &quot;The Jungle.&quot; </p>
<p>[ Say what? &quot;The Jungle&quot; was written in 1906. This makes no sense, though the minimum wage today is low. ]</p>Dan Riker commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411e539e970c2013-02-17T17:24:29Z2013-02-17T17:24:37ZDan Rikerhttp://profile.typepad.com/6p017d40f6d41b970cWe are living through another "Gilded Age." The minimum wage today, in real terms, is about the same wage paid...<p>We are living through another &quot;Gilded Age.&quot; The minimum wage today, in real terms, is about the same wage paid to the meat packing workers when Upton Sinclair wrote &quot;The Jungle.&quot; Thousands of men lined up outside the factories, willing to take any job, at any pay. There are millions today in about the same circumstances.</p>
<p>The average hourly wage in the U.S. is less than $23.00. Maybe half the population are struggling to make ends meet. We have a rapidly growing number of people of retirement age facing living on fixed incomes when costs are going up, and efforts are underway to reduce retirement and medical benefits. How is that going to work out?</p>
<p>In reference to Stiglitz&#39;s point, it once was possible for children of low middle class incomes to get their music lessons for free in school, to go to summer camps very inexpensively because they were run by YMCAs, churches, or the Scouts. Driver&#39;s ed was a free course in school. State college and university tuitions were minimal. And during this time, the late 40s into the 1970s, we had low disparity of income, a rising middle class, and the wealthy continued to get richer. </p>
<p>The conditions that caused this no longer exist, but many of the problems we face today are our own fault. There are solutions if we have the political will to implement them. We need a new progressive movement to take control of the state and national governments.<br />
</p>dick c commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee892222e970d2013-02-17T17:20:31Z2013-02-17T17:20:31Zdick cAren't we at least halfway there? Socializing losses seems to have been perfected!<p>Aren&#39;t we at least halfway there? Socializing losses seems to have been perfected!</p>Second Best commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411e4712970c2013-02-17T17:12:39Z2013-02-17T17:12:39ZSecond BestGet with the Frank Luntz program Paine. The word is progress, free market, efficiency, competition ... anything but 'socialization'.<p>Get with the Frank Luntz program Paine. The word is progress, free market, efficiency, competition ... anything but &#39;socialization&#39;.</p>DrDick commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36eee04e970b2013-02-17T17:01:59Z2013-02-17T17:01:59ZDrDickYou may want to take a look at Scandinavia, which has the highest rates of equality and social mobility.<p>You may want to take a look at Scandinavia, which has the highest rates of equality and social mobility.</p>ScentOfViolets commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee891bf3a970d2013-02-17T15:53:57Z2013-02-17T15:53:57ZScentOfVioletsWhy do you suspect this? What sort of evidence would cause you to discard this hypothesis?<p>Why do you suspect this? What sort of evidence would cause you to discard this hypothesis?</p>Paine commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee891a525970d2013-02-17T15:30:29Z2013-02-17T15:30:29ZPainehttp://Stopmebeforeivoteagain.orgSocialization has miles to go before we can rest<p>Socialization has miles to go before we can rest </p>Paine commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411dd23c970c2013-02-17T15:29:25Z2013-02-17T15:29:25ZPainehttp://Stopmebeforeivoteagain.orgPay according to value added sounds fine But each tasks value added is not uniquely determined eh ? The jb...<p>Pay according to value added sounds fine</p>
<p>But each tasks value added is not uniquely determined eh ?<br />
The jb Clark fantasy is just that and dangerously nothing more </p>
<p>To set up society along reward for work <br />
Is an outcome system stripped of it&#39;s onerous property holder take <br />
And the private capture of the institutionally generated residue<br />
surpluses and deficits </p>Paine commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee8919f35970d2013-02-17T15:26:00Z2013-02-17T15:26:00ZPainehttp://Stopmebeforeivoteagain.orgEnter the minimum wage maximum hours regs And the earned income social dividend Btw pensions are bad We need cumulative...<p>Enter the minimum wage maximum hours regs <br />
And the earned income social dividend </p>
<p>Btw pensions are bad<br />
We need cumulative qualification <br />
for the size of one&#39;s personal <br />
earned social dividend share at each payment date </p>
<p>This would start day one of job one </p>
<p>An eitc would make good policy better however<br />
So long as it&#39;s funded out of a progressive wealth tax </p>Paine commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36ee6beb970b2013-02-17T15:21:20Z2013-02-17T15:21:20ZPainehttp://Stopmebeforeivoteagain.orgI agree a tight as bark job market is job one Cure ? That goes past the line of plausibility<p>I agree a tight as bark job market is job one</p>
<p>Cure ?</p>
<p>That goes past the line of plausibility </p>Second Best commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411dc62a970c2013-02-17T15:20:31Z2013-02-17T15:20:31ZSecond BestEnough with unequal opportunity. The problem has grown to be one of unequal outcomes that don't add value. Having equal...<p>Enough with unequal opportunity. The problem has grown to be one of unequal outcomes that don&#39;t add value. Having equal opportunity to produce more negative value makes the problem worse.</p>
<p>The rich produce added value for themselves individually, at the expense of negative value for others. The rich have an increasing share of a shrinking economic pie driven by economic rent extraction at the micro level and repressed economic output and employment at the macro level.</p>
<p>Given an &#39;equal opportunity&#39; to become &#39;economically successful&#39; in this context is like choosing whether to economically exterminate the &#39;takers&#39; of this illegitimately constructed economic pie or become a &#39;maker&#39; in its creation.</p>Darryl FKA Ron commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36ee6a05970b2013-02-17T15:19:47Z2013-02-17T15:19:47ZDarryl FKA RonWhile this was a pretty good comments thread already, your post improved its lot by an order of magnitude. Kudos...<p>While this was a pretty good comments thread already, your post improved its lot by an order of magnitude.</p>
<p>Kudos and THANKS!</p>Paine commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411d6d84970c2013-02-17T14:03:19Z2013-02-17T14:03:19ZPainehttp://Stopmebeforeivoteagain.orgEqual opportunity is a false goal Maximum opportunity is a goal Given the unequal starting positions We have to maximize...<p>Equal opportunity is a false goal</p>
<p>Maximum opportunity is a goal </p>
<p>Given the unequal starting positions <br />
We have to maximize opportunity <br />
The outcome given finite collective resources <br />
should flow strongest at the bottom and taper on the way up thru the starting positions to the median point </p>
<p>The funding should of course come from the top down <br />
tapering off at the median position</p>
<p>We should for example<br />
Tax a Child born to wealth and great inheritance heavily</p>
<p><br />
What about the variation in natural endowments ?</p>
<p><br />
Tax away most of that... it&#39;s a rent</p>
<p>The beauty of taxing talent<br />
They are forced to exert greater efforts to contribute to social welfare </p>save_the_rustbelt commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411d66ab970c2013-02-17T13:57:10Z2013-02-17T13:57:10Zsave_the_rustbeltThe best cure is a robust labor market. I don't see that anywhere in our near term future.<p>The best cure is a robust labor market.</p>
<p>I don&#39;t see that anywhere in our near term future.</p>Watermelonpunch commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017c36ed0452970b2013-02-17T08:40:50Z2013-02-17T08:41:00ZWatermelonpunchhttp://profile.typepad.com/watermelonpunch1"And increasingly even a college degree isn't enough" And it shouldn't even be needed for mere survival for pity's sake....<p>&quot;And increasingly even a college degree isn&#39;t enough&quot;</p>
<p>And it shouldn&#39;t even be needed for mere survival for pity&#39;s sake.</p>
<p>What this whole argument about educational opportunities and just the notion of equality of opportunity, fails to address is that WE NEED garbage collectors, institutional &amp; public bathroom cleaners, school &amp; hospital cafeteria servers, hospital laundry workers, sewage line diggers, etc.</p>
<p>To argue this way against this myth is to fall into the trap the myth sets...</p>
<p>The end result of that trap is to make moral and righteous the idea that as long as everyone has the opportunity not to be doing things VITAL to civilization, then those who work doing things vital to civilization may morally &amp; righteously treated as little better than slaves.</p>Watermelonpunch commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee8902049970d2013-02-17T08:25:42Z2013-02-17T08:25:47ZWatermelonpunchhttp://profile.typepad.com/watermelonpunch1"Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave", 1845 It's always been a myth, one way or another.<p>&quot;Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave&quot;, 1845</p>
<p>It&#39;s always been a myth, one way or another.</p>William of Ockham commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411c32d9970c2013-02-17T07:44:48Z2013-02-17T07:44:48ZWilliam of Ockhamhttp://www.jennervacationrentals.com/"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/when-governments-fear-people-there-libertyquotation Amen<p>&quot;When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.&quot;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/when-governments-fear-people-there-libertyquotation" rel="nofollow">http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/when-governments-fear-people-there-libertyquotation</a></p>
<p>Amen</p>NKlein1553 commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411c24cb970c2013-02-17T07:24:58Z2013-02-17T07:25:07ZNKlein1553http://profile.typepad.com/nolankleinI don't know about always: Born in 1835, Mark Twain...had his youth and early manhood in the golden age of...<p>I don&#39;t know about always:</p>
<p></p>
<p>Born in 1835, Mark Twain...had his youth and early manhood in the golden<br />
age of America, the period when the great plains were opened up, when wealth and opportunity seemed limitless, and human beings felt free, indeed were free, as they had never been before and may not be again for centuries. LIFE ON THE MISSISSIPPI and the two other books that I have mentioned are a ragbag of anecdotes, scenic descriptions and social history both serious and burlesque, but they have a central theme which could perhaps be put into these words: &#39;This is how human beings behave when they are not frightened of the sack.&#39;</p>
<p>-George Orwell; &quot;Mark Twain: The Licensed Jester&quot;</p>Glen commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee88f8bdf970d2013-02-17T04:58:46Z2013-02-17T04:58:46ZGlenCompared to the lofty goals we had even as far as the sixties, quality public universities are dead. It's almost...<p>Compared to the lofty goals we had even as far as the sixties, quality public universities are dead. It&#39;s almost impossible for our children to believe that the goal of the University of California was to make a world class university education free to all state residents:</p>
<p><a href="http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/11/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120411" rel="nofollow">http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/11/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120411</a></p>
<p>Instead, our public universities have morphed into money sucking monsters, leaving our children floundering in unpalatable debt, with little hope of good jobs, in a smashed economy:</p>
<p><a href="http://business.time.com/2012/09/27/the-student-debt-epidemic-1-in-5-households-now-owe-student-loans/" rel="nofollow">http://business.time.com/2012/09/27/the-student-debt-epidemic-1-in-5-households-now-owe-student-loans/</a></p>
<p>We cannot expect our country to continue to create new technology, new companies, new business opportunities if we allow Wall St to financialize our education system just like everything else they get their hands on. Hey, what harm could possible come from that? Balloning college costs? Less cutting edge university R&amp;D? World economic collapse? Nah.</p>
<p>And having a country which is more oligarchy than meritocracy, what harm could come from that? It&#39;s not like we&#39;d get some bumbling idiot as President just because he was the son of a former President and came from a wealthy and connected family. Hey, what harm could come from that? Unbudgeted tax cuts for the rich? Wars against the wrong countries? Unregulated free-for-all financial markets? Massive Federal debt? Nah!</p>carlyle commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411bb6af970c2013-02-17T04:43:54Z2013-02-17T04:43:54ZcarlylePart of a New Deal would be a Civil Education Corps that would take the well educated but jobless young...<p>Part of a New Deal would be a Civil Education Corps that would take the well educated but jobless young Americans and train them as assistant teachers.<br />
An assistant or two in every classroom during the early part of reading training would keep many from falling through the cracks. There should be someone to help those students at the back of the learning curve and save them from a failed education. <br />
</p>Rob commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017d411b6e56970c2013-02-17T03:05:05Z2013-02-17T03:05:05ZRobEqual opportunity only happens if we all have the same opportunities from early on in our lives (through say 20...<p>Equal opportunity only happens if we all have the same opportunities from early on in our lives (through say 20 years of age).</p>
<p>That elementary school through high school is funded from ~50% state government and ~40% local government (read: through property taxes), plus ~10% from federal sources (Source: ed.gov, c2004/2005 ... maybe out of date, but probably not too much). States are different socioeconomically; and the funding of local governments varies dramatically mile by mile in most urban areas. This leaves micro-sized regions of inequality within our cities.</p>
<p>And we incarcerate ~3% of adults at any one time, and they disproportionately live in similar, lower income areas ... we end up with very different demographics in different areas, which leads to very different funding for k - 12 education ...<br />
much more money is invested in kids from relatively well-off families because their local government is well- funded via high property taxes ... and in low income areas, k - 12 education is terrible because the kids are from disproportionately broken homes and are more concerned about their own safety, the well-being of their parents (e.g., sick parents who are low income; and parents who are involved in a rough crowd) ... and the lower income schools tend to get bad teachers and beginner teachers, generally the only ones who would want to work in such districts.</p>
<p>We have permanent inequality driven by our criminal justice and education system, and because of the very low &quot;minimum&quot; wage and because we have so many illegals in the country who are more than happy making less than the minimum wage as well ... while the rich get richer.</p>
<p>Segregation based on education happens in many countries. Most of those we would consider 2nd and 3rd world, but I digress ...</p>kievite commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee88f0fd7970d2013-02-17T02:19:14Z2013-02-17T02:19:14ZkieviteI would not deny that there are a lot of thing that are bad in the USA education. But at...<p>I would not deny that there are a lot of thing that are bad in the USA education. But at the same time there are things that the US education system does right. </p>
<p>Community colleges is one such thing. They provide pretty good education at minimum cost and if you are &quot;degree-oriented&quot; but &quot;knowledge-oriented&quot; person they are of tremendous value. </p>
<p>Another good thing is that you can get degree by taking some number of obligatory courses and facultative courses in almost any order. And you can take a break and your credit will be preserved. </p>
<p>Also number of credit you need to take to count as full time student is low (afaik 12 is enough). </p>
<p>All that provide some &quot;equality of opportunity&quot; for those who can take advantages on those features of the system. </p>
<p>I think for BS and MS the best value in the US university system lies outside Ivy League universities. PhD is another story.</p>tiny-me commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee88ef506970d2013-02-17T01:45:59Z2013-02-17T01:45:59Ztiny-mehttp://tiny-me.tk/That is true but everyone has an eqaul chance in some ways. What you posted is true in most cases...<p>That is true but everyone has an eqaul chance in some ways. What you posted is true in most cases but there has to be a &#39;Start&#39;, just like all of these companies owned by families had a start.</p>John commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee88edd9b970d2013-02-17T01:13:18Z2013-02-17T01:13:18ZJohnWhere in history has equal opportunity existed? You will always better parenting, access to horizon broadening experiences. Tell us something...<p>Where in history has equal opportunity existed? You will always better parenting, access to horizon broadening experiences. Tell us something we don&#39;t know. The solution isn&#39;t to tear down the successful. Reduce the out of wedlock birth rate to that of the 1950s, and I suspect that will solve a major part of the chasm between the &#39;haves&#39; and &#39;have nots&#39;! </p>Mike commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee88ebc4a970d2013-02-17T00:28:34Z2013-02-17T00:28:34ZMikeStiglitz is right and the data is in. While children born into the middle class enjoy a good degree of...<p>Stiglitz is right and the data is in. While children born into the middle class enjoy a good degree of economic mobility, children born into lower socio-economics classes tend to stay there while children born into rich resource families tend to stay rich, regardless of aptitude. </p>
<p>We need to end the failed War on Drugs first and foremost, along with enacting better educational policies for those who most need them. </p>DrDick commented on ''Equal Opportunity, Our National Myth''tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451b33869e2017ee88ea7e7970d2013-02-17T00:03:50Z2013-02-17T00:03:50ZDrDickIt has always been a myth, a carefully crafted and nourished myth. It is just much more evident today than...<p>It has always been a myth, a carefully crafted and nourished myth. It is just much more evident today than it was in my youth.</p>