Amos Quito:Where we, the public have failed is in our duty to hold the corrupt, treasonous politicians PAINFULLY accountable for their seditious collusion with the greedy bastards.

So much rope to be stretched - so little time.

If anything, the French Revolution taught us also that there will be people like you, just waiting to form Committees on the Public Safety, and keep order too. I mean, sure thousands of innocent people die.

Trading one form of Tyranny for another. That's the ironic comedy of people who are all too eager to force everyone else against the wall for the revolution.

/those people would also do well to remember what happened to Robbspierre.

The dems have done a brilliant job getting their minions to accept that 7.4% unemployment with declining wages, more people underemployed, more people quitting the work force, more part time jobs is a wonderful thing that they should be happy about.

That's a lot of text just to say Both Sides are Bad so Vote Republican. Especially on the apologetics on the issues of social conservativism being what is killing the GOP.

Congratulation on being the first MENSA member to come along and say exactly what I predicted that you would say in my post (which you obviously either didn't read or didn't understand). I'm not apologizing for the GOP, and that entire party can go fark themselves with a rusty chainsaw as far as I'm concerned. It's interesting that you interpret ANY criticism of the Golden Party to be a full-throated endorsement of the GOP (even though I bashed the GOP far harder than the DNC in my post), and then go ahead and just make some random assumptions about my political affiliation and how I feel persecuted because of them or something. Good call.

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face:Plenty of 'thanks, Obama' posts but he only picks the 'thanks, GOP' posts. Pretty much stopped reading there.

Yes, yes, Both Sides Are Bad. Some Sides Are More Bad Than Others isn't helping.

Your first point is certainly valid, and the finger-pointing does no good whether it's pointing to the left or the right. I did not intend to imply that this is a one-sided problem. In my defense, the "Thanks, Obama" posts on Fark tend to be more sarcastic in nature, while putting the full blame on the GOP is standard Fark fare. Not that we don't have those who blame Obama for every bad thing ever, which is equally retarded. Oh, and "Both Sides Are Bad.Some Sides Are More Bad Than Others isn't helping."is pretty much exactly the point that I was trying to make. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

But, hey, let's keep fighting each other while we get robbed by both sides. That's exactly what the people who run this country want. Divide and conquer is a very effective strategy, and it has been working wonderfully for them. It keeps us distracted while they sell our future to the highest bidder and enrich themselves at our expense.

mod3072:Congratulation on being the first MENSA member to come along and say exactly what I predicted that you would say in my post (which you obviously either didn't read or didn't understand). I'm not apologizing for the GOP, and that entire party can go fark themselves with a rusty chainsaw as far as I'm concerned. It's interesting that you interpret ANY criticism of the Golden Party to be a full-throated endorsement of the GOP (even though I bashed the GOP far harder than the DNC in my post), and then go ahead and just make some random assumptions about my political affiliation and how I feel persecuted because of them or something. Good call.

here to help:That was pathetic. So basically we're getting screwed by corporations either way so let's choose the guys that are gonna turn the country into freaking Bible camp... because, yanno, whatever.

Idiot.

I never, anywhere in my post, suggested or implied that anyone should vote for Republicans. Idiot.

Yeah, the cool thing is that our new "guests" will be willing to flip those burgers at half the going wage.

It gets even better.

Last I heard the new arrivals don't count toward your 50 person limit on the new health care law (Obamacare)

So

1) They'll work cheaper2) They work harder3) You can give them full time jobs and it not push you over your 50 limit so that you have to spend all that money on health care.4) There now legal to hire

Why would you hire a native born when you can get these guys? Fire the born heres and hire the new legal illegals.

Bonus:

Once the "new legals" are legal, it will open up a huge demand to fill the positions that they formerly occupied as illegals, so we'll have a brand new bumper crop of "undocumented workers" pouring over the borders to fill that demand.

There are too many people who assume they are OWED a job/living/what have you.

Jobs are dying.

It doesn't take a three-digit IQ to see that work is being outsourced to either the third world or to automation. If you believe that you can survive by working in the future, you're not going to be around to realize that you were wrong.

Due to rising wages in china and other developing countries manufacturing jobs are coming back over.

And what exactly do you think Mr Romney did all those years over at Bain? That's your savior? I don't particularly like the O man either but holy cripes... magic underwear guy? Really?!

Where exactly in my post did I endorse Mitt Romney or the Republican party? What the fark is so hard for you people to understand? I hate BOTH parties. There wasn't a good option for president (or for pretty ANY federal political office), and there never is, and there never will be so long as the proles continue to support either one of the two major parties because, well, the other side is worse. So obviously I think everyone should vote Republican. That makes perfect sense, I guess.

mod3072:Where exactly in my post did I endorse Mitt Romney or the Republican party? What the fark is so hard for you people to understand? I hate BOTH parties. There wasn't a good option for president (or for pretty ANY federal political office), and there never is, and there never will be so long as the proles continue to support either one of the two major parties because, well, the other side is worse. So obviously I think everyone should vote Republican. That makes perfect sense, I guess.

Well for someone who wasn't endorsing Republicans over Dems you sure managed to get a lot of people under the impression you were.

Awh, you mad? Seriously, if we just ended the child tax gift and gave it to the millions of people who don't really want to work, it'd be a complete wash anyways. Instead, we (the non-child-bearing public) reward people for having sex (wow, like that's hard) and buying houses (congrats, you bought a house, now why am I supporting you doing so?) ...

Why not reward people who choose to do what they WANT instead of forcing people to work $8/hour jobs slinging burgers at a retarded public? I'd love to make movies and shoot films in my life, but I've realized short of being in a select few people, that will never, ever happen.

I'd love to learn how to fly a plane, but I couldn't afford to do so even if I were to devote everything I make to doing so.

Why not let people live the way they want to give and give everyone a modest place to start from. A cheap place to live, enough food to survive, and basic medical care for everyone aren't things we couldn't afford to do ...

I'd just like to add in, even though globalization is a very large issue that has allowed this to happen, I would also add in the U.S. not continuing to expand on infrastructure in a meaningful way is also part of the problem. Developing nations are pretty much on par now with the U.S. as far as road/rail,electrical and internet. We've also cut back or not progressed on education which is a form of infrastructure as far as the nation goes.

ReapTheChaos:"These jobs, which account for 33% of all private sector jobs, pay an average of $15.80 per hour."

$15.80 an hour is a pretty decent wage in most places. You wont live like a king, but you'll manage. The problem is people are spoiled. They think they need to drive a new car, have the best furnishings in their house, $80 a month cable Tv on their 50" flat screens, $200 cell phones with a $75 monthly plan and a slew of other crap that you can live without.

That puts us at $1,883Now you want to have the ability to actually have a life, OK

Phone+Internet: $75 ;yes, you could get by without internet and just having a phone, but you wouldn't be here then now would youLunch out once a week or going to the bar twice a month or going to see a ball game once a month or going to the symphony every other month: $50

Now we're up to $2,008, or $30 dollars left over to maintain the car and buy clothing and such.

Where can we pare this down. Let's see, we could ditch the car if we lived in a more urban area. So we can get rid of fuel and car insurance, but our rent would go up to $950, and we'd need to spend $75/mo on a transit pass. That's a losing proposition.

We can move to a rural area, drop rent to $500/mo, but pay another $100/mo in fuel, $50 a month in utilities (those cheap places in rural areas are always poorly insulated and have crap appliances). That does add a bit, but you're sacrificing 2 hrs a day, or 10 hours a week, or 43 hours a month of your life in commuting. That's more than a week's worth of work for saving that money. If you need to you can do it and work out on the plus side. Be aware that your personal life will suffer and your health will suffer. Thursday will come and you'll be buying lunch because you woke up too damn late to make it yourself, so add another $25/mo there.

We can move to the ghetto. Bus service will be spotty at best (giving you that wonderful hour commute like in a rural area if you decide to ditch the car as below) and you can up your car insurance by $30 a month. Rent will be $400, but you'll spend more money eating out because who wants to go home to the ghetto, so add another $100 to that budget. Same issue applies with the utilities, and extra $50 because you live on top floor of a house with windows that are so loose the newspaper blows off the table when the wind blows in the winter. Factor in an additional $20/mo for getting rolled for your rent money while you're taking a shower in the shared bathroom. You could theoretically lose the car in the ghetto, so you can take the insurance off of it, but again, $230 for fuel/insurance vs $75 for the bus pass and an additional $100/mo for food (because now you're limited to what's available in the ghetto), and that's not really a great option either.

So, a roommate. Cut your rent in half, and cut your utilities by a third (because that bastard takes 2 hour showers and leaves every goddamned light on) and increase your food by 1/3 (those were MY chicken nuggets), and your eating out budget to $150 a month (how many times do I have to come home to find not a clean dish anywhere? Guess it's pizza again) and your fuel budget by $50 (why does he always need a goddamned ride?)... Hrmm, that sounds like it loses too.

Or you could be that scumbag roommate who eats the other guys food and schemes rides off of him n'at. You could move in with your current SO, and just replace a third of your stuff every two years when they flip out and leave (avg).

Or you could start a business building guillotines. We'll need them soon.

GUTSU:Due to rising wages in china and other developing countries manufacturing jobs are coming back over.

That temporary and/or influence from people trying to buy American-made goods, recently.

With China's wages growing higher, manufacturing is starting to invest in other countries. Last I read, there's 14 or so countries that might come up behind China and be the manufacturing cess pool that China used to be. Some of them are already getting some cash infusions to build plants and the like. About half of them are getting the investment curve that China was getting in the late 70's / early 80's.

hardinparamedic:mod3072: Congratulation on being the first MENSA member to come along and say exactly what I predicted that you would say in my post (which you obviously either didn't read or didn't understand). I'm not apologizing for the GOP, and that entire party can go fark themselves with a rusty chainsaw as far as I'm concerned. It's interesting that you interpret ANY criticism of the Golden Party to be a full-throated endorsement of the GOP (even though I bashed the GOP far harder than the DNC in my post), and then go ahead and just make some random assumptions about my political affiliation and how I feel persecuted because of them or something. Good call.

[www.famousquotesabout.com image 400x300]

Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

mod3072:Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Except I saw very little "bashing" of the republican party - as did many other people - and plenty of deflection of blame onto the "other guys" while doing the same thing you accused everyone you quoted in this thread as doing.

Hence, either you completely suck at explaining your position, or you're concern trolling. Which is it?

here to help:Well for someone who wasn't endorsing Republicans over Dems you sure managed to get a lot of people under the impression you were.

Yes, it's us that must be confused.

Your preconceived notion that anything less than falling on your face in complete adoration of the Democratic party is tacit endorsement of the opposition party is the source of your confusion. I said the Dems weren't sent down from on high to save mankind, so obviously I love Republicans. You are exactly the kind of person my post was about. You seem to live in a black-and-white world where you are either one or the other, and if I'm one and you are the other, then we must be mortal enemies. Just keep blindly voting for the person with the right letter behind their name. That should fix everything.

mod3072:Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Okay... I'll ignore what I perceived as an endorsement for the pubs. So aside from that you went to great lengths to tell us all how much we slobber over dem cock. The Farkers in general are totally brainwashed by the dems to march in lockstep and we are nothing but subserviant sheeple to the 0bamster.

The thing is... I'm here pretty much every day... even if I'm not posting. Even the libbiest libs on here don't do that. They have plenty of complaints and poor opinions about the current administration. These guys may be derp farmers but they aren't actually dumb. So even ignoring the fact it did indeed appear you were endorsing the republican party you were still using a common right wing tactic of making anyone who even THINKS of voting democratic as mindless sheep.

It simply is not true. The reality is most are not happy with that party but the other guys are indeed WAY worse. Like freaking nutsoid, sell us all into slavery, launch large scale global conflicts next WEEK kind of worse.

You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.

It is insulting to say those people are blind and brainwashed. They just have no other choice.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.

hardinparamedic:mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Except I saw very little "bashing" of the republican party - as did many other people - and plenty of deflection of blame onto the "other guys" while doing the same thing you accused everyone you quoted in this thread as doing.

Hence, either you completely suck at explaining your position, or you're concern trolling. Which is it?

I don't blame either party over the other for our economic situation. As I said, most of the economic policies that have screwed over the middle class have broad BIPARTISAN support. I was responding specifically to three posts that seemed to blame the entirety of our economic woes on the Republican party, so that is how I approached the subject. I could have picked three posts that were blaming the Democrats or Obama and said pretty much the same thing but emphasizing how Republicans are just as eager to screw you over as the Democrats are, but I think that would have been a little redundant. I've been in enough Fark Politics threads to realize that it is already widely accepted by most people here that Republicans are more than willing to fark over the country if it puts another dime in their own pockets, so I chose to focus more on the Democrats.

My area is currently putting up some new swanky hotels, a country club, and a marina, justifying it by "Think of all the jobs!"

When in reality, it's just a bunch of rich people wanting more perks for themselves and telling the locals how lucky they are to have the chance to build it for them, maintain it for them, and wait on them while they're utilizing it.

mod3072:Your preconceived notion that anything less than falling on your face in complete adoration of the Democratic party is tacit endorsement of the opposition party is the source of your confusion. I said the Dems weren't sent down from on high to save mankind, so obviously I love Republicans. You are exactly the kind of person my post was about. You seem to live in a black-and-white world where you are either one or the other, and if I'm one and you are the other, then we must be mortal enemies. Just keep blindly voting for the person with the right letter behind their name. That should fix everything.

here to help:mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Okay... I'll ignore what I perceived as an endorsement for the pubs. So aside from that you went to great lengths to tell us all how much we slobber over dem cock. The Farkers in general are totally brainwashed by the dems to march in lockstep and we are nothing but subserviant sheeple to the 0bamster.

The thing is... I'm here pretty much every day... even if I'm not posting. Even the libbiest libs on here don't do that. They have plenty of complaints and poor opinions about the current administration. These guys may be derp farmers but they aren't actually dumb. So even ignoring the fact it did indeed appear you were endorsing the republican party you were still using a common right wing tactic of making anyone who even THINKS of voting democratic as mindless sheep.

It simply is not true. The reality is most are not happy with that party but the other guys are indeed WAY worse. Like freaking nutsoid, sell us all into slavery, launch large scale global conflicts next WEEK kind of worse.

You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.

It is insulting to say those people are blind and brainwashed. They just have no other choice.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.

So very true, and well said.Also I seriously doubt most people that vote for Dems do so blindly. Does this country need political reform sure, but who's gonna do it? I'd like to see a true liberal party emerge but well that isn't happening anytime soon./Saying both side are bad has been a sorta code to try and get people to vote Republican for a long time.

silvervial:But the pendulum is going to swing back hard soon. The New Deal was mostly able to be put into place because a lot of wise people feared socialism, real socialism not the boogy man created by the teahadists. They realized there would be a revolution in this country if they didn't give some sops to the poor/working class, so they did. And it worked. It has ceased working because so much has been dismantled.

There is no pendulum; the people who control the country don't need us anymore because everything they do need can be provided by people in China, India, in Southeast Asia or wherever currency exchange rates and a lack of regulations allow them to pay pennies for labor. These people don't care if we threaten to stop slinging burgers, cleaning each other's clothes or whatever job is hot in the vaunted 'Service Economy' this month, none of that affects them. Unions and the work that made them viable were the only influence the general public ever had and with their death so too died the ability of the populace to effect change upon our economic situation.

The country is in decline and it isn't going to get better until the whole thing collapses and people lose their bread and circuses and that probably won't happen within the lifetime of anyone living today. The pendulum is gone.

hardinparamedic:Amos Quito: Where we, the public have failed is in our duty to hold the corrupt, treasonous politicians PAINFULLY accountable for their seditious collusion with the greedy bastards.

So much rope to be stretched - so little time.

If anything, the French Revolution taught us also that there will be people like you, just waiting to form Committees on the Public Safety, and keep order too. I mean, sure thousands of innocent people die.

"And the men who spurred us onSit in judgment of all wrongThey decide and the shotgun sings the song"-- The Who

"A Republic, if you can keep it."-- Benjamin Franklin "God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion. The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty."

-- Thomas Jefferson

hardinparamedic: Trading one form of Tyranny for another. That's the ironic comedy of people who are all too eager to force everyone else against the wall for the revolution.

/those people would also do well to remember what happened to Robbspierre.

Okay fine.

Just carry on under the delusion that your government is ultimately benevolent, there is a meaningful difference between the "Left" and the "Right", and that things will just keep getting better and better if we will ONLY allow those that govern unlimited power.

mod3072:hardinparamedic: mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Except I saw very little "bashing" of the republican party - as did many other people - and plenty of deflection of blame onto the "other guys" while doing the same thing you accused everyone you quoted in this thread as doing.

Hence, either you completely suck at explaining your position, or you're concern trolling. Which is it?

I don't blame either party over the other for our economic situation. As I said, most of the economic policies that have screwed over the middle class have broad BIPARTISAN support. I was responding specifically to three posts that seemed to blame the entirety of our economic woes on the Republican party, so that is how I approached the subject. I could have picked three posts that were blaming the Democrats or Obama and said pretty much the same thing but emphasizing how Republicans are just as eager to screw you over as the Democrats are, but I think that would have been a little redundant. I've been in enough Fark Politics threads to realize that it is already widely accepted by most people here that Republicans are more than willing to fark over the country if it puts another dime in their own pockets, so I chose to focus more on the Democrats.

I'm guessing you're still in college, pretty young and really don't remember all the things that have happened and why over the years.

MaudlinMutantMollusk:I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once they've stopped actually producing anything

That's nonsense. There are lots of ways to add value -- shaping and joining bits of material is not the only option. For most of the history of civilization manufacturing was only a viable source of revenue for a tiny proportion of the population.

Try the same sentiment from an agricultural perspective:I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once most of the people stop farming

Or from a natural resources perspective:I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once they're run out of resources to dig out of the ground

Or from a mercantile perspective:I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once global trade is readily accessible

The leading economies in the world have weathered all of those transitions mostly unscathed. Society changed and power reshuffled, but successful economies of the past are still successful today despite massive differences in the basis of their value. The idea that this change is the one true economic disaster that's unlike all the previous changes is nothing more than hubris and a lack of imagination.

here to help:You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.

I don't think we are as far apart on this as it may seem. You just seem more willing to throw up your hands and support a party that you know does not have your best interests at heart. As long as both sides continue to support the major parties out of fear of the other side, nothing will ever change. I'm not saying that it's easy, or that there is a quick, simple solution. I'm just saying that voting for one side because you are terrified of the other is only going to perpetuate the problem. That's how the entrenched parties stay entrenched. Republicans convince their base that if they don't vote for them, the scary gays are going to take over and socialize our Muslim terrorist abortions. Or something. I don't know, it's mostly buzzwords. You adequately explained yourself how the Democrats keep the base voting for them. We need a viable third party and some comprehensive campaign finance reform. Easy to say and hard to do, I realize that. But if enough people get disenfranchised by the 2 party system, anything is possible. Not likely, but possible.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.

Typical. Treat any differing point of view as merit-less and childish. I've had fun arguing with you all, but it's finally dried up outside and my lawn isn't going to mow itself. Try not to fall off of your high horse and hurt yourself while I'm gone. I'll pop in later to catch up on the insults hurled my way, so feel free to let them fly.

Amos Quito:Just carry on under the delusion that your government is ultimately benevolent, there is a meaningful difference between the "Left" and the "Right", and that things will just keep getting better and better if we will ONLY allow those that govern unlimited power.

I don't carry on under any delusions that our current government isn't a corrupt and wasteful entity. But I also don't harbor delusions that people like you are any better than the previous monster. People who masturbate over the spilling of blood and revolution are the first to turn on those who bring them into power in the first place. This has been the rule for all of the leaders through history who have promised with violent revolution to save us from our tyrant masters should we put them in the halls of power. Especially those are willing to create an enemy to focus the vitriol and hatred of the masses upon as blame for their own miseries.

Your history of creating blame-ridden boogymen based on race and creed should put you last to open your mouth up about it.

It's simply the charismatic repeating history over and over. The serpent in the Garden with the golden tongue, so to speak.

The kind of people who have use of you until you have no use, and then cast you aside or turn you into one of the boogymen yourself.

Does anybody happen to know how they quantify the jobs figure? Is each "job" in the real world equal to one "job" on the report regardless of what the job is? Or has the term been defined to mean something specific like "one job equals 40 hours at $10 per hour" so that there can be an apples to apples comparison?

I wouldn't put any weight in a report that would think there was no net effect on jobs if an engineer job at $60/hr disappears and a toe painting job is created that makes minimum wage.

College may not be the best choice for everyone, but vocational training and certificates can take people far away from these low-end jobs. I bussed tables for 4 years in my early twenties for $4.25 an hour. Only after I put myself through a two year program did my career move anywhere.