It's still mind boggling to me that someone would spend so much time writing detailed critiques (in walls of text no less) about the logic of a story in a game they hated. And then get all worked up in a tizzy that someone has the nerve to actually not be so friggin anal and enjoy it for what it is despite its problems. Maybe try a little perspective? And some medication...

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

shihonage wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 20:20:Their design was so bad, in fact, that in the end of Fallout 3 you end up having to go into a nuclear chamber, and you have an NPC with you who is IMMUNE to radiation, but the game won't let you send him in. When you try, he says "This is your path, and your path alone".

Wait a second. Unless I imagined it the game did give me the option to convince the supermutant to go into the chamber then during the ending narration said my character was a coward for not being a retard and sacrificing myself. Maybe the DLC added it. I haven't played in a few years.

So many strawmen here, no substance. If someone told you they love "Jack & Jill", would you still stick to "subjective quality" red herring?

Nobody needs Fallout 3 to be an accurate historical simulator. But even Mass Effect, the staple of RPG mediocrity, had better writing, FAR better visual design, and actually attempted to make its world cohesive in some way.

In Fallout 3, not only there's an inexplicable town sitting on a nuke(which makes no sense from any angle), but then you're greeted with open arms by a complete stranger Lucas Simms (who is tasked to protect the town), and then yet another complete stranger asks you to blow up the bomb, because apparently he couldn't be arsed to do it himself.

There's no backstory, no motivation or explanation for any of this.

And when you do blow up Megaton, a mutated human appears there immediately - Moira - and greets you with the most retarded attempts at fourth-wall humor I've ever seen. In Fallout 3, not only do humans survive nuclear blasts, but they mutate instantly!

The truth is, Fallout 3 falls far below any of its peers, those being games like Mass Effect, Gothic, Dragon Age, and The Witcher. The only memorable bits about the game were stolen from the prequels directly - the light you see when getting out of the vault, the "Vault Boy", the plot about water purification...

Their design was so bad, in fact, that in the end of Fallout 3 you end up having to go into a nuclear chamber, and you have an NPC with you who is IMMUNE to radiation, but the game won't let you send him in. When you try, he says "This is your path, and your path alone".

It makes no goddamn sense. The rest of the game is equally lazy. Fallout 3's world is not a world, but an "anything goes" theme park, a collection of kiosk vendors yapping in Simple English. And the sad part is, millions of supposed adults were "entertained" by it.

The cars strewn around that nobody robbed of fuel... nuke launchers... mutant orcs... The Matrix... one menial quest after another...

Hey man, I'm being overly subjective. After all, from a certain point of view, Mariah Carey's "Glitter" was a profound coming-of-age story.

Scottish Martial Arts wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 14:41:What's even more sad is grown men who don't see a problem with liking things that are clearly juvenile. Frankly, the complete lack of critical faculties, and the complete embrace of stupidity as being par for the course, are the reasons why the non-gaming world thinks gamers look more than a bit foolish when they start talking about how their sub-moronic hobby is art.

I don't need Fallout 3 to be scientifically accurate with professional writing to enjoy it the same way every movie can't be Citizen Kane. Gaming is an entertainment hobby and when accuracy trumps enjoyment then of course it'll be the first casualty. I think people can enjoy Fallout 3 while still loving the previous games too, it more than makes up for its shortcomings in other categories.

I think video gaming has come a long way since it's inception when I compare something like Super Mario Brothers to The Last of Us, it's still a young medium with a lot of room to grow. Think about your favorite movie and I'm sure there is someone out there who considers you a moron because it's unrealistic or doesn't fit with their views on the subject. As if anyone else can really look down on gaming when movies, television and books are just as rife with "stupidity" anyway.

What's even more sad is grown men who don't see a problem with liking things that are clearly juvenile. Frankly, the complete lack of critical faculties, and the complete embrace of stupidity as being par for the course, are the reasons why the non-gaming world thinks gamers look more than a bit foolish when they start talking about how their sub-moronic hobby is art. Gaming, for the most part, is no more intelligent than a summer action movie, and it's gamers steadfast refusal to be critical of stupidity that keeps it there.

"But that's like, your opinion, man."

Wow, look at all the shits I'm not giving about your snobbish, elitist, obnoxious opinion! As if I actually need your permission to enjoy something or need your approval before I admit to enjoying something. Jesus you are full of yourself!

Likewise, I think it's very telling that no one is really trying to dispute the arguments made by Shihonage or myself.

No one is countering your idiotic ranting about your opinions about our opinions because it is ridiculous. Talk about childish - you actually want someone to reply with their opinion on your opinion of our opinions. That's rich!

This comment was edited on Oct 31, 2013, 15:17.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

Beamer wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 14:46:The most popular shows on television are all fart jokes, dick jokes and laugh tracks. There's no way Fallout 3 is half as juvenile as Two and a Half Big Bangs.

And how many people do you know that aren't ashamed to admit they like that crap? I don't know if you noticed, but the most popular and talked about TV shows these days aren't The Big Bang Theory or CBS Police Procedural #409, it's stuff like Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy, or Boardwalk Empire, i.e. shows that don't go out of their way to insult their viewer's intelligence. Summer action movies still do big business, but then the target audience for your typical Marvel movie has an average age of 10 or so. The bottom line is that video games are pretty much the only medium which doesn't have an alternative to the half-hour network sitcom or the summer action blockbuster, and the reason why that is is that the gaming press has no critical faculty -- their only standard is "am I experiencing some form of enjoyment?" -- and that gamers themselves are all to willing to lap up garbage so long as there is a visceral thrill or two.

On the internet, yes. The internet also loved Party Down, Arrested Development, Freaks & Geeks, Parks and Recreations, 30 Rock and Community. Shows that failed, or close to it. And the cable shows don't do extremely well, relatively - The Walking Dead is the one that gets monster ratings and it's basically as braindead as it zombies.

On topic, though, for whether people are ashamed - open up match.com or OKCupid and look at what shows the majority of girls like. Reality TV and Big Bang Theory. No, they aren't ashamed.

Beamer wrote on Oct 31, 2013, 14:46:The most popular shows on television are all fart jokes, dick jokes and laugh tracks. There's no way Fallout 3 is half as juvenile as Two and a Half Big Bangs.

And how many people do you know that aren't ashamed to admit they like that crap? I don't know if you noticed, but the most popular and talked about TV shows these days aren't The Big Bang Theory or CBS Police Procedural #409, it's stuff like Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy, or Boardwalk Empire, i.e. shows that don't go out of their way to insult their viewer's intelligence. Summer action movies still do big business, but then the target audience for your typical Marvel movie has an average age of 10 or so. The bottom line is that video games are pretty much the only medium which doesn't have an alternative to the half-hour network sitcom or the summer action blockbuster, and the reason why that is is that the gaming press has no critical faculty -- their only standard is "am I experiencing some form of enjoyment?" -- and that gamers themselves are all to willing to lap up garbage so long as there is a visceral thrill or two.

Likewise, I think it's very telling that no one is really trying to dispute the arguments made by Shihonage or myself. Instead, it's just devolving into "well, like, there's no objective standards for anything, and that's, like, just your opinion, so, like, quit being a mean ol' elitist."

What's even more sad is grown men who don't see a problem with liking things that are clearly juvenile. Frankly, the complete lack of critical faculties, and the complete embrace of stupidity as being par for the course, are the reasons why the non-gaming world thinks gamers look more than a bit foolish when they start talking about how their sub-moronic hobby is art. Gaming, for the most part, is no more intelligent than a summer action movie, and it's gamers steadfast refusal to be critical of stupidity that keeps it there.

"But that's like, your opinion, man."

The most popular shows on television are all fart jokes, dick jokes and laugh tracks. There's no way Fallout 3 is half as juvenile as Two and a Half Big Bangs.

What's even more sad is grown men who don't see a problem with liking things that are clearly juvenile. Frankly, the complete lack of critical faculties, and the complete embrace of stupidity as being par for the course, are the reasons why the non-gaming world thinks gamers look more than a bit foolish when they start talking about how their sub-moronic hobby is art. Gaming, for the most part, is no more intelligent than a summer action movie, and it's gamers steadfast refusal to be critical of stupidity that keeps it there.

shihonage wrote on Oct 30, 2013, 20:50:I don't see how Fallout 3 could be considered immersive by anyone whose reading experience goes above books about friendly elephants and Dora The Explorer, but that is indeed your prerogative to "stand by".

And likewise I don't see how any adult person could be so obnoxiously elitist but that is your prerogative as well. Carry on!

shihonage wrote on Oct 30, 2013, 20:50:I don't see how Fallout 3 could be considered immersive by anyone whose reading experience goes above books about friendly elephants and Dora The Explorer, but that is indeed your prerogative to "stand by".

Its plot was silly, but how many games can we name that aren't?Anyone?Game writers have to fill up hours upon hours, unlike movie writers, and need to be coherent even to people that speed through without reading much.

The game was atmospheric, which matters more to me than plot points. Plots can be silly and still make sense in the context of the world. Fallout 3 worked as such for me.

shihonage wrote on Oct 30, 2013, 20:50:I don't see how Fallout 3 could be considered immersive by anyone whose reading experience goes above books about friendly elephants and Dora The Explorer, but that is indeed your prerogative to "stand by".

And likewise I don't see how any adult person could be so obnoxiously elitist but that is your prerogative as well. Carry on!

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

I don't see how Fallout 3 could be considered immersive by anyone whose reading experience goes above books about friendly elephants and Dora The Explorer, but that is indeed your prerogative to "stand by".

The thing about "making Fallout 3 into a living, breathing world" was hysterical. Fallout 1's gameplay code and scripting made so much more effort toward that goal.

I said it was an excellent first step, and I stand by it. I know it sucked me into the Fallout universe in a way FO1 and 2, as great as they were, never did. So while the first 2 were undeniably better games, the third was more immersive to me than either, and I ended up enjoying it more.

And I like Michael Bay movies. So there.

Redmask wrote on Oct 30, 2013, 18:11:You don't have higher standards, you just have a different opinion. People don't need to know cold war nuance to enjoy a Fallout game, their enjoyment of it might be enhanced but that's not the same thing. Put differently, you're trying to elevate yourself over other people using subjective criteria but the reality is that you're just upset people don't share your opinion on a video game.

So, so true. Elitists are sad.

This comment was edited on Oct 30, 2013, 19:58.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

Everytime I'm about to type something, SMA takes the response from my head and types it for me.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD SMA

The thing about "making Fallout 3 into a living, breathing world" was hysterical. Fallout 1's gameplay code and scripting made so much more effort toward that goal. There were so many more reactivity checks against your stats, the dialogue was more dynamic, the descriptive text screen alone played the role of a Dungeon Master that breathed more life into the world than anything in Fallout 3.

The quest system was more sophisticated, with things involving timing, interrupted dialogue, and other tricks. Multiple solutions to quests were the norm.

"Zany" Fallout is a trend started in Fallout 2, and then taken to retarded extremes in Fallout 3. Fallout 1 was a cohesive universe, and after Fallout 2, it became an "anything goes" universe. A theme park of random sci-fi attractions, that infected the entirety of the series including New Vegas and its "thematic" DLCs.

Unfortunately the game is old and now everyone is a revisionist historian. Another blow against intelligently-made games is that a retard can plow through it like it's Diablo, and all they take from the experience is killing shit, handing in quests, and taking loot.

Fallout as a franchise has no direction or theme anymore. Perhaps it wasn't even meant to be a franchise. Tim Cain, the mastermind of the series, left after the first game.

You don't have higher standards, you just have a different opinion. People don't need to know cold war nuance to enjoy a Fallout game, their enjoyment of it might be enhanced but that's not the same thing. Put differently, you're trying to elevate yourself over other people using subjective criteria but the reality is that you're just upset people don't share your opinion on a video game.

Well when it comes to video games, its long been apparent that normal, sane people think they ought to be stupid and never assume that the audience has any intelligence. If Fallout 3 had been a movie, no one over the age of 12 would have been caught dead saying they liked it, just like no one says that they like Michael Bay movies: that shit is stupid, and anyone with any taste isn't afraid to say so. But with video games, stupid reigns supreme, and anyone that suggests that we should aim a little higher is clearly neither normal nor sane.