I know BDL got DL 767s for some time, as well as AA a300s to SJU, before the service was switched to a 757, then a 737, then dropped.

PVD had DL 757s (and maybe 767s) on a scheduled basis.

EA ran a 757 PVD-ISP-ATL (I'msad this doesn't still exist as I travel to Warwick and Providence from Long Island 3-4x a year. I think at one point ISP may have had DC-8s (the airline, though, I cannot recall).

I really wish I had been around during the age of the milk-runs. Made spotting so much more interesting and flying so much more fun!!!

Yes it did. I don't know the exact dates of BUF's AA DC-10 service but in June 1972, AA 96 (a DC-10) was heading from LAX to LGA via DTW and BUF. It had an explosive decompression shortly after departing DTW.

The *modern day* smallest US airports with scheduled passenger widebody flights are probably Fairbanks (Condor to Frankfurt in summer) and Orlando Sanford (TUI to Amsterdam). Widebodies are nearly extict other than intercontinental flights. Very, very different than 30-35 years ago. Here's what I can find for scheduled widebody flights in the US over the past 40 years.

I can't find anything to support it, but it *seems* like ALB, ELP, TUS and PVD have had scheduled widebody flights, but I might be off on that. I also didn't find anything into some places that might have, including SDF, OKC, RIC, RNO, GSO, LIT, DSM, ORF or SRQ, all of which are relative peers of some widebody cities like Omaha, Columbia, Syracuse and Daytona Beach. And I thought Northwest's Montana DC-10 service included Missoula, but I couldn't find evidence of that...just Spokane-Great Falls-Billings-MSP/ORD.

I'm betting there are a few airports where HA is the only widebody service, SMF comes to mind, for PDX, HA is the only domestic widebody service. In fact if you take away International departures, there are very few widebody cities left here in the US vs. what it used to be like in the 70's, 80's & 90's.

AA DC 10 on an ORD early am arrival, usually the last leg of a SFO or a LAX red-eye to ORD. It then was teh second morning departure to ORD..usually continuing on to SFO.

Then that became a 762 for a while and time of day varied.

TWA had both l-10 and 767 from STL at various times and also for a long time had a LAX-IND- DAY L10 flight. Occasionally it started in CMH-then IND to LAX..always Am westbound and evening return, usually around 9:30 PM.
On clear evenings I could see it approach from my balcony patio.

As oh crap goes on day 9/11 I remember two Korean Air 747 inbound with passengers for ANC diverted to tiny and I mean tiny Whitehorse Yukon Territory Canada. One of the 747 was squawking the hijack signal which the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) via USA-F Alaska Forces ordered fighter jets out of California and F-15's out of EDF.

In the late 90's or early turn of the century the co-founder of Microsoft chartered a 747 and other equipment in JNU Juneau, Alaska with quite a few of the Hollywood elite and some from England for a Bill Gates birthday bash. They chartered a cruise ship for a weekend voyage into Glacier Bay,

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 22):Going back a decade earlier, American Airlines' timetable eff. August 1, 1975 shows the following medium-sized city DC-10 flights:

BUF-DTW-LAX 2x daily

One of those flights going in the other direction (LAX-DTW-BUF) was Flight 96. That was the one that suffered a cargo door failure over Windsor, Ontario while flying the leg between DTW and BUF on June 12, 1972.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 14):Can anyone name the domestic widebody cities currently? i can name a few

I think MSP still has a couple daily domestic widebodies that I can find, looking at the schedule this Friday 12/28 for Delta I see a 763 and a 332 to LAX. However No widebodies scheduled from MSP to ATL or DTW, however, that I can find, at least during the winter months.

One thing I've always wondered is how full these flights were. Most of them seem to be "tag" flights (LAX-DTW-BUF, or LAX-ORD-IND). I'm sure the loads on the tag segments were usually low, but can anyone give a round about estimate of how often these widebodies might have been filled to capacity?

Was it common for fare paying pax (let's say on DTW-BUF-LGA) to be denied boarding because of a fuller than anticipated load continuing from the origination point (say LAX)?

I lived in Palm Springs from 1983 to 1993 and American used to bring a DC-10 into PSP from DFW and Canadian brought in a DC-10 from YVR on occasions. I remember when you could fly on a widebody even on short routes. PSA flew their L-1011 called "Mother Grining Bird" between LAX and SFO. United had a DC-10 from SAN to LAX and then going on to HNL. Delta had 763's between PHX and LAS and also between SLC and LAS. Those were the good old days.

MKE also saw UA DC-10 flights from MKE-ORD (and I think CLE as well!) I remember I flew on to ORD once on my way to Florida on one of those birds. Probably in the 80's sometime. I have a pic of a NW 747 in MKE also, as well as numerous photos of the classic NW DC-10 and the first few 757's which were named "City of XXX". I'll have to dig those out!

Sioux Falls, SD still has a FedEx A300-600 if not mistaken. I believe that flight operates MEM-FSD-YYC.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 28):One of those flights going in the other direction (LAX-DTW-BUF) was Flight 96. That was the one that suffered a cargo door failure over Windsor, Ontario while flying the leg between DTW and BUF on June 12, 1972.

That flight was operating LAX-DTW-BUF-LGA. AA had a couple of daily DC-10s then on BUF-LGA. AA also used the DC-10 on YYZ-LGA for a while in the '70s.

At Hartford - American flew DC-10s and A300s, Eastern L-1011s (and DC-8-60 series), TWA L-1011s, United DC-10s (and stretch 8s), Delta flew L-1011s as well. There was regular widebody service BDL-JFK and BDL-ORD. I don't remember which - someone flew in 747s as well as a tag - BDL-JFK-LAX .. maybe more than one carrier. After Delta purchased Northeast I think they were running L-1011s BDL-BOS-BDA as well? And squeezing in between these widebodies were Mohawk 111s and 227s, Pilgrim Twin Otters and lots of other smaller equipment. It was wonderful to go out on the observation desk and smell the jet fuel and see these large aircraft at smaller BDL ..

Quoting floorrunner (Reply 39):If I am not mistaken, Branniff flew a 747 in and out of Dallas Love Field.

Actually, prior to the opening of DFW, Braniff, American and Delta ALL flew 747s into Love Field.

In addition, American operated DC-10s and Delta operated L-1011s into Love Field.

From the excellent "A Pictorial History of Airline Service at Dallas Love Field" by George W. Cearley, Jr.:

"On the morning of October 25, 1970, Delta became the first airline to offer 747 service at Love Field, with Flight 11 from Atlanta to Dallas and Los Angeles."

"American was the second airline to offer 747 service at Dallas on October 25, 1970, but a little less than eight hours after the Delta flight. American's '747 Astroliner" departed Love Field at 5:35pm for Los Angeles, while the Delta flight had left at 9:58am, also for Los Angeles."

"Braniff became the third 747 operator out of Love Field (following Delta and American) when it inaugurated flights to Honolulu Friday, January 15, 1971."

"American inaugurated Douglas DC-10 service at Dallas in January 1972 with flights to Chicago O'Hare."

"On December 15, 1973, Delta inaugurated Lockheed L-1011 'Tri Star' service at Love Field on a route from Atlanta to Dallas and Las Vegas."

MKE had DC-10 service by UA to DEN/SFO in the 80's my wife and I did it Twice. also to Florida in the winter months. NW did a lot of DC-10 flights out of MKE to MSPJFKDTW and 747's and DC-10's to Florida in the winter months. I did the 747's MKE-ORD-FLL and back a few time with my grandparents back in the 70's in First, wow what service you got back then. I remember seeing an Eastern L1011 a few times at MKE, but I not certain that was schedule or not.
I'm not sure if it counts or not but UPS and Fedex both have W/B's come in every day at MKE.

I was a BUF based f/a for AA for 3 months in the winter of 1978. We had a two-day LAX trip. BUF-ORD-LAX and same routing on the return . It was a base of about 200 f/a's and we'd carpool to work for the trip. Left in the morning---think it was Flight 181/182 on the return.
I remember flying DC10's into DFW from ELP, DTW, MEX, AUS, SAT,MSY just to name a few. A cool feature about that plane was that there was a viewing window of the nose gear in the lower lobe galley. I can remember staying down there once as we came into MEX and watching the gear drop, got to watch the city underneath me for a few seconds before I hurriedly took the elevator up to my jumpseat. Those were the days!

As somebody said, if cargo, add lots of places, some, like Sacramento's Mather Field (KMHR) are only cargo. As to SMF, UA had DC-10 and 767-200 regular SMF-DEN flights for years. HA flew scheduled charters for Suntrips to HNL with L1011s many years before they started the current 767-300 service. PSA would occasionally bring in their L1011 to protect for canceled flights, sometimes in combination with a canceled Western flight, but that was never scheduled service. Other one-off charters with widebodies have made appearances over the years. Even AF Concorde.

If occasional drop-ins count, SMF has always had the occasional diversions from SFO, SJC and even LAX, seeing LH, CA, BA, UA, PA, AF 747's and other heavies. A PA 747 doing touch & goes was a regular sight in the early years, and they even stuck one in the rice paddy when a Touch didn't Go once. USAF C-5s, Starlifters and other trainers were a regular occurrence. And Boeing used to bring in the new models during flight certification; I saw the first 747-300 there and the first 777-300 as well. And one really exciting day featured a shiny CPAir DC-10 buzzing the field with a chase plane for photographs. I digress, but the SR-71s and U2s out of Beale AFB streaking the runway were other high points.

So diversions and charters, if counted, would add another bunch of smaller market airports to the list.

Cargo is often the only reason a lot of small airports have wide-body flights. RFD is a great example being a UPS hub since 1994. Most widebodies are AB3's and 763's, but during the Christmas Rush, they get 747's. In fact, this week, a Kalitta 747-200 flew RFD-DFW. Also, UPS flew an MD-11 EWR-RFD this week. Unfortunately, both are late evening affairs.

PIA has been getting UPS AB3's since Febuary 2009. They operate SDF-PIA-RFD in early morning and RFD-PIA-SDF in late evening Monday thru Friday. Check out my videos from June 14 and 20:

IND is hardly small, but it sees quite a bit of wide-body cargo action being a FedEx hub and a thrice-weekly stop for Cargolux 747s. On August 31, I got lucky and saw not only the Cargolux jet but also an Atlas Air 747 military charter to Germany! Made the 3.5-hour drive worth it!

Quoting Mainliner (Reply 30):). I'm sure the loads on the tag segments were usually low, but can anyone give a round about estimate of how often these widebodies might have been filled to capacity?

As a frequent flyer between SEA & PDX from the early 79-84, I went out of my way to ride widebodies, BN 747, NW 747, UA DC-10, EA L-1011, DL L-1011, EA A300, CO DC-10, TZ L-1011, HA L-1011.

Below is a comprehensive list of the carriers and the metal they flew on this route. I never ever saw a flight better than 50% on those flying tags, for those carriers like QX and UAX I have been on many packed flights.

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 50):I know during the early 80's around 1982, UA had a nonstop SAN-HNL, using a DC-10,but about a year
later they switched to a 747 that went SAN-LAX-HNL

It's funny how similar SAN and PDX's stories are, at this same time period UA had a n/s DC-10 PDX-HNL, but also ran a once weekly ODX-PDX-NRT & NRT-PDX-ORD flights both on Tuesdays with 742's that crossed paths at the same time. I caught the ORD-PDX segment once on purpose, the rest of the week the flight ran ORD-SEA-NRT

Quoting Mainliner (Reply 30):One thing I've always wondered is how full these flights were. Most of them seem to be "tag" flights (LAX-DTW-BUF, or LAX-ORD-IND). I'm sure the loads on the tag segments were usually low, but can anyone give a round about estimate of how often these widebodies might have been filled to capacity?

Although we're talking about a time long before stats were posted online for individual markets, airlines in general flew average loads which would not be acceptable today. This is from the 1974 American report, a year in which they earned $20m profit on revenues of $1.6b.

System scheduled load factor -- the percentage of seats sold to seats available -- was 58.1 percent, 5.1 percentage points above the 53.0 per cent load factor of 1973. This compared favorably with the 55.0 per cent industry load factor.

Also factor in a couple of other things:
--To get an average in the low 50's systemwide, it was routine for most routes to be in the 45-65% range
--Aircraft had lower density seating then than they did later on (for example L10 / D10 seated about 250, compared to 280-290 in later years.)
--Aircraft often flew multi-stop routes, so passenger flows from multiple origins and destinations were onboard many individual segments.
--Nonstops were less common, and in some cases (certainly not all) there were fewer total flights.

Airlines had fewer tools and skills to spread demand out. So while it may seem strange to run a half-full D10 on a segment when they could have run an 85% full 727-200, consider that the route might carry 180 passengers on a Sunday and 75 passengers on a Tuesday. The notion of "getting bumped" goes back many decades, far into the days when flights were only half full on average.

So while most airports board far more passengers than they did in the 70's and 80's, big changes in the structure of the domestic industry mean rather few domestic widebodies than were seen back then -- especially at medium and smaller airports.

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 22):Quoting knope2001 (Reply 9):I can't find anything to support it, but it *seems* like ALB, ELP, TUS and PVD have had scheduled widebody flights, but I might be off on that.
OAG's Pocket Flight Guide, North American Edition, for March 1-31, 1985 shows AA Flt. #375 operatiing DFW-ELP with a DC-10. AA #436 operated ELP-DFW. Looks like a RON at ELP.

The opening scene of Paris, Texas (not a great film, BTW) shows an AA DC-10 on the ground at ELP. The funny thing is that it featues a Muse Air MD-80, when Muse Air didn't even fly to ELP. They must have paid Muse to fly one of their birds out tl ELP

With reference to El Paso, Texas, in the early 1970's (I remember 1972 specifically), American flew DC-10s to Dallas Love Field (this was prior to the opening of DFW). The American DC-10s parked at Gate 15 on the West Concourse (Gate A-4 now). I don't think American's widebody service to El Paso lasted very long.

Later, 1978 - 1979 time frame, Continental also served El Paso with DC-10 equipment. The aircraft were on a LAX-ELP-SAT-IAH routing.

Quoting e38 (Reply 77):With reference to El Paso, Texas, in the early 1970's (I remember 1972 specifically), American flew DC-10s to Dallas Love Field (this was prior to the opening of DFW). The American DC-10s parked at Gate 15 on the West Concourse (Gate A-4 now). I don't think American's widebody service to El Paso lasted very long.

It lasted through the early 1990's...DC10-10's weren't uncommon aircraft substitutions at ELP during the holidays when demand went way up. My personal last intra-Texas AA DC-10 flight was DFW-SAT in 1992...

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 86):Don't think I saw it covered above but, according to the 7-1-83 OAG, DAY also saw L-1011 service from DL, DL 1029 arriving at 8:35pm from...wait for it...

CVG.

And I thought CMH-CVG on a 757 was amazing. CVG-DAY, 60 miles on an L10!

Yeah it's crazy to think about nowadays, I remember being amazed at the ridiculousness flying an ERJ DAY-CVG let alone an L1011, but CVG was good for tag-ons like that I guess. Most of these flights from IND, DAY and CMH were same plane through flights to cities like LAX or SFO. Heck CMH had a daily 738 flight to CVG as late of 2008/2009 I believe.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 87):Yeah it's crazy to think about nowadays, I remember being amazed at the ridiculousness flying an ERJ DAY-CVG let alone an L1011, but CVG was good for tag-ons like that I guess.

I flew at Delta Connection Academy when they had a satellite campus at DAY. Thanks to flight benefits, it wasn't uncommon for a couple instructors who lived near CVG to hop the morning CRJ/ERJ CVG-DAY to go to work, taking the last DAY-CVG home.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 87):Heck CMH had a daily 738 flight to CVG as late of 2008/2009 I believe.

It alternated between a 738 and MD-88 before the "end". I took a 738 on the morning CMH-CVG in February 2009, just before they ended mainline for the last time and switched it to a CR7.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 57):PIT was a substantial UA operation for many years, inherited from the 1961 Capital merger.

Thanks for the info on that. I never even heard of Capital. I always thought US (Allegheny) ran the show at PIT with TWA in its shadows. I know that UA actually had a bonafide hub at CLE that was closed somewhere around 1985 or '86. Did they eventually consolidate operations at CLE?

Given that, it's kinda funny to think CLE is a UA hub -- again. Granted it's a regional jet haven, but it's still a hub that appears to be holding its own...

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 89): I never even heard of Capital. I always thought US (Allegheny) ran the show at PIT with TWA in its shadows. I know that UA actually had a bonafide hub at CLE that was closed somewhere around 1985 or '86.

UA's CLE hub was also inherted from the merger with Capital. Before deregulation, if you wanted to fly from ORD to Florida or ATL on UA you had to connect at either CLE or PIT, using the former Capital route authority. In those days the only carriers with nonstop traffic rights from Chicago to Florida and other points in the southeast U.S. were Delta, Northwest and Eastern.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 6):NW Operated DC10s MSP-MKE for years, then switched to 753 but after the meger not even a 752.

Ha! I was in DTW when a DC-10 to MKE (FULL) CXLD. I was on a pass home (the same day that NW had
an A340 borrowed for Airbus flying around), I ran. Imagine a DC-10 going tech. What do you do with that many
passengers?

The first NW DC-10-40 I ever saw was an IAD diversion. I was fascinated by them.

Quoting mayor (Reply 91):I don't remember that. That's quite a step up, from being a DC-9 only city to widebodies.

Shoot, and the DC-9 and stuff is recently too, there were years that it was all RJ. I think it was the late 90s. I remember being on a number of 757 and 767 into GSO from Atlanta most Sunday nights. Most other flights at the time were 727 except to CVG which was typically narrow body and RJ and Orlando was all RJ. I seem to recall that the wide-bodies were all the late night flights, first flight out the next day.

Quoting mayor (Reply 80):Quoting N1120A (Reply 78):
And that dated back to Western. In the old terminals, there was a single jetway, and it served Western and then Delta.

Only the route and/or service goes back to WA. I don't believe that WA ever operated DC-10s into ONT and I know they never had any 767s. That was all DL.

You are correct, Mayor. The DL extension to the ONT terminal opened in 1985/86, before the WA merger. The DL gate area was at ground level, and passengers zig zagged up a four level ramp, with switchbacks, to get to the jetway.

Quoting HAWAIIAN932 (Reply 31):I lived in Palm Springs from 1983 to 1993 and American used to bring a DC-10 into PSP from DFW

My first widebody flight (and the first flight I can remember; I was six years old at the time) was in 1974, on AA 66 PSP-PHX-ORD-DTW. AA 66 originated in LAX; I can still clearly remember the DC-10 landing at PSP on the inbound flight from LAX, with the Santa Rosa mountains in the background.

PSP has the prettiest airport in the country; it would be great if AA or another airline resumed widebody flights there someday.....

Quoting gsoflyer (Reply 95):Shoot, and the DC-9 and stuff is recently too, there were years that it was all RJ. I think it was the late 90s. I remember being on a number of 757 and 767 into GSO from Atlanta most Sunday nights. Most other flights at the time were 727 except to CVG which was typically narrow body and RJ and Orlando was all RJ. I seem to recall that the wide-bodies were all the late night flights, first flight out the next day.

When I worked at ORD for DL in the 70s, the only type of a/c that GSO (and RDU, for that matter) had were DC-9s....-14s at first and then -32s. As I recall, for part of that time, the ONLY way to get to GSO and RDU on DL was via ORD.

I really don't know. It sounds unusual to operate scheduled 747s to DAY, but then the same can be said for an L-1011. Having said that, 747 publicity flights were common when the aircraft first appeared. I know United sent one to RIC for such a purpose.

[Edited 2012-12-27 22:50:30]

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