Note that it is likely there are deaths that have not yet been reported. I think it is also important to keep in mind that it took roughly 6 weeks for the current strain of H1N1 to circle the globe. As noted in the reports, it's becoming increasingly important for WHO to release the sequencing out of Ukraine.

I decided to create a new post because this is a seperate situation that seems to be a bit urgent and certainly evolving also being that the other Swine Flu thread is quit long I thought it might be time to open a new and more current thread. I was thinking I would dedicate this thread more specifically to the situation in the Ukraine.

I had brought this up on the other swine flu thread but since there is much discussion that there may be a second infectious agent involved maybe we can run both threads for now until we know for sure it is swine flu (even per more conservative entities like h5n1 crofsblog.com have stated that it is not clear it is all swine flu). WHO has been really dragging its feet in sharing the genetic sequences, Dr. Niman seems to think that it indicates some worsening of the virus through mutation. Funny how this has not hit MSM at all. WHO got there last Monday, after an hour or so basically stated "everything's fine" then stayed and kept testing and evaluating. They have had access to genetic sequences long enough to give us all the details and are still holding back.

I've been posting on CM about Swine Flu since spring but for the most part, people have not been all that interested so I've just stuck to the sites that are interested. I even hesitated in posting the Ukraine situation but I think it may be a wake up call and another window to do some prepping just like our current financial situation in the US. There are many ways to prepare for our future and our health in regard to Swine Flu, I have believed since spring, is one of them.

I'll be traveling tomorrow but I'll try to keep up on the latest in Ukraine and post the links.

BTW, where the hell is spell check on this site? I suk no, sux no, suck at spelling!

I've been posting on CM about Swine Flu since spring but for the most part, people have not been all that interested so I've just stuck to the sites that are interested. I even hesitated in posting the Ukraine situation but I think it may be a wake up call and another window to do some prepping just like our current financial situation in the US. There are many ways to prepare for our future and our health in regard to Swine Flu, I have believed since spring, is one of them.

I'll be traveling tomorrow but I'll try to keep up on the latest in Ukraine and post the links.

BTW, where the hell is spell check on this site? I suk no, sux no, suck at spelling!

Yes, it is remarkably silent here regarding the pandemic situation . . . I think that most folks are sitting back and watching, but they are certainly not disinterested, as I get a lot of hits on my blog regarding the pandemic situation. It is the most active topic, there.

With martial law declared in the Ukraine, it may be very difficult to get reliable information out of there . . . There seems to be a complete blackout on this in the MSM . . . I agree . . . best to be prepared, regardless. What harm is there in having plans for this sort of scenario? The fed, state, & local levels drill for it . . . Why shouldn't we prepare on an individual level, too? I, for one, don't plan on relying on FEMA to save me . . .

I've also been posting information from the Recombinomics site, but it's important to remember that they're entwined in the vaccine development business, and may therefore be compromised. I would counsel using their information judiciously . . . Potential conflicts of interest, eh? Their name is odd . . . recombine + economics = recombinomics . . . hmmm . . . .

Here's one of their major areas:

Monitoring of viral recombination can be used to enhance vaccine development. Viruses use recombination to escape immunological or drug targeting.

The recombination follows well defined rules which can be used to monitor the efficacy of new or modified vaccines. The rules can also be used to predict new variants, so vaccines can be developed before viruses emerge. The rules of recombination appear to apply to all viruses so viral vaccine strategies can be broadly applied.

It seems to me that the ability to predict recombination by such "well defined rules" might be useful in predicting what would happen if say, active live swine flu and avian flu were combined in solution, as in the "oops" batch that Baxter shipped last February. Recombinomics' services might be useful in predicting the outcome of such a mishap, and in developing the vaccine to counteract it. Indeed, if, as some suggest, the Baxter debacle was not accidental, but rather intentional, in the hope of creating a recombined virus with the communicability of swine flu and the lethality of avian flu, Recombinomic's services would fit right into the strategy . . .

Thank you for bringing that to light Cloudfire. Do you have any links to alternative sites that are reputable and up to date? Also, what is you blog address?

Niman has stated that he has been experiencing a second SF infection and he is taking tamiflu so I've just assumed he's more of a mainstream kind of scientist who takes the vaccine and the antivirials because he believes in them. You have to take just about anything with a grain of salt anyway so I just glean and then think for myself.

There's an interesting discussion over at LATOC right now regarding strep infections and the onset of SF about a week after. This was my experience with my daughter (exactly) and news reports of these underlying bacterial infections becoming dominant during a SF infection and becoming fatal is a trend we're starting to pick up on. There seems to be a connection with the strep and SF shortly after. the thinking is that there was a mild SF infection with subsequint strep then SF reinfection following. You'll find the discussion under breaking news and then the Swine Flu thread.

Again, where the hell is spell check? Anyone? I'm beginning to feel a little moronic for not seeing it, help!

Thank you for bringing that to light Cloudfire. Do you have any links to alternative sites that are reputable and up to date? Also, what is you blog address?

Niman has stated that he has been experiencing a second SF infection and he is taking tamiflu so I've just assumed he's more of a mainstream kind of scientist who takes the vaccine and the antivirials because he believes in them. You have to take just about anything with a grain of salt anyway so I just glean and then think for myself.

There's an interesting discussion over at LATOC right now regarding strep infections and the onset of SF about a week after. This was my experience with my daughter (exactly) and news reports of these underlying bacterial infections becoming dominant during a SF infection and becoming fatal is a trend we're starting to pick up on. There seems to be a connection with the strep and SF shortly after. the thinking is that there was a mild SF infection with subsequint strep then SF reinfection following. You'll find the discussion under breaking news and then the Swine Flu thread.

Again, where the hell is spell check? Anyone? I'm beginning to feel a little moronic for not seeing it, help!

Hi, Rocketgirl;

My blog is at CloudfireOnFire.com. There you'll find a description of my experience with an influenza epidemic in 2000 (to the best of my recollection). In fact, the sickest patients during that epidemic had a secondary strep infection along with the flu. I'd estimate that about 50% of the ones with both influenza and strep pneumonia died. It seems to be a pretty lethal combo. They'd go into cytokine storm with the usual acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), septic shock, and multisystem organ failure. So, although that certainly doesn't happen every flu season, it's not unheard of.

On my blog, you can also find excellent resources on how to prevent and treat influenza, as well as how to treat vaccine exposure. I personally like the rationale behind Dr. Russell Blaylock's protocols. You'll find them under "Alternative Medicine -- Swine Flu". I like his protocols because he takes the potential for cytokine storm into account, and therefore avoids overrevving the immune system in his protocols for preventing swine flu infection. While a brilliant neurosurgeon, he is also a practical fellow . . . His interventions for mitigating the possible side effects of vaccine exposure get right to the heart of the autoimmune reaction. For some folks, his advice could be life saving.

I know that you often link to your blog where more info is posted. My request is that you post more of the swine flu stuff here as some of us are banned from your blog.

Larry

DrKrbyLuv;

No one, to date, has been banned from my blog . . . You did receive a single warning not to post violence-advocating material, but you are welcome to visit and post, anytime. There have been no other instances in which even warnings were required. I have been blessed with a readership that generally conducts themselves civilly. Though not everyone agrees with me, your single post advocating a violent solution is the only one that I have ever "unpublished". So far, I haven't had to edit any posts.

I am a bit disturbed, however, that you would want to create the impression that anyone has been banned from my blog . . .

I don't have an official posting policy on my blog . . . Thus far, it has not been necessary. People who frequent my blog have been well mannered, and self-regulating. I've carried on some email debates, and I can say that the folks were candid and straightforward, as well as courteous and thoughtful.

I've been braced for the other kind of poster, but thus far I've been blessed. We'll see how it goes . . .

Let me rephrase my comment, many of us don't want to visit a blog where innacurate characterizations are made by heavy handed censorship that comes from a religious bias. I'm glad you get a lot of polite folks and please forget my suggestion.

Let me rephrase my comment, many of us don't want to visit a blog where innacurate characterizations are made by heavy handed censorship that comes from a religious bias. I'm glad you get a lot of polite folks and please forget my suggestion.

Everything that I have said to you concerning this matter is still on my blog for all to see. It is a single post, by me. I have had no private conversations with you concerning this matter. If you had an objection to my decision, you failed to bother to state it until now . . . several weeks after the fact. Frankly, this makes me wonder whether your bringing it up now bespeaks another agenda . . .

Your post very explicitly advocated violence. I reread it several times to be sure that there was nothing ambiguous about it. No religious bias was required to determine whether your suggestion was violent or not. You are misrepresenting the facts. There was absolutely no religious content in your post that I chose to unpublish . . . only violence-inciting statements.

If people consider not supporting violent talk as heavyhanded, they are welcome to avoid my blog and to visit sites that do advocate violence . . . But, I would caution them against doing so, as it is likely to get them unwanted attention from federal law enforcement agencies. Personally, I would rather visit sites that forbid violent talk. I have no interest in violent solutions, nor do I want my blog to be a denizen of those who do. My blog is intentionally organized so that people can use the right-hand sidebar to choose subjects that are of interest to them, and avoid subjects that are of no interest or that might offend them.

Since Chris Martenson very strictly forbids the advocation of violence as well as illegal activity, religious discussion, naked links, assertions without documentation, as well as a raft of other perceived crimes against the site, it begs the question of why you continue to visit and post frequently on CM. You have also overlooked the fact that the discussion of religion is not forbidden on my blog. For many people, religion is a more important part of their lives than violence is. That is the sort of individual I hope to reach. I have no interest in drawing every individual in cyberspace to my blog. I realize that my blog will have a limited audience. In fact, I hope that its readership remains small.

All of that having been said, everybody is welcome to visit and sample whatever information is germane to their interests and concerns. And when they do, they can be sure that they won't have federal agents on their doorstep, wondering why they frequent sites that advocate violence. Since advocation of violence is forbidden here as well as on my blog, there is no barrier to people navigating from here to there.

In short, I offer no apology for unpublishing a post that clearly and explicitly advocated violence. I also wonder why you are apparently unconcerned about such matters. Surely, since I have had only one occasion on which I felt it was necessary to intervene, you would have to agree that the moderation is much heavier here on CM, yet you continue to post here . . . What's up with that?

This thread was started by Rocket Girl for the purpose of discussing the situation unfolding in the Ukraine. There is useful information posted here, with no restrictions on who accesses it. Let's let Rocket Girl have her thread back . . .

Smoking Gun of Plans to Mass Vaccinate? . . . Pneumonic Plague Drill Includes Dispensing "Proof of Having Received Medicine"

The Northwest Herald, a Chicago suburban newspaper with wide readership, has reported that a local police department in Lake-In-the-Hills, IL has conducted a drill to test their action protocol for a hypothetical pneumonic plague outbreak. Chief of Patrol Services David Brey told reporters that the protocol would be used in the event of a biological terrorist attack, or widespread disease outbreak. The drill was specifically aimed at testing for adequate flow of patients, from triage through receiving proof of having received medical care. It was performed at Lincoln Prairie School in Lake-in-the-Hills, directly across from the Village Hall. Thus far, there have been no published reports of how the facility and personnel performed.

Update: Given that I live just fifteen miles from the community in question, and I am a local healthcare provider, I called down to the Lake-in-the-Hills police department and spoke with Chief of Support Services, Mary Frake. Here's what she told me.

That is a pretty interesting choice of infection for a drill, but to be a terrorist weapon the plague causing bacteria would have to be geneticly or biologically engineered in some way to make it vectorable by something other than fleas (which could be done by an advanced nation's governement -- not the current crop of Islamic terrorist idiots). A human with pneumonia from plague is not going to be able to walk around a mall and spread it to innocent bystanders. Suicide mall infector?

On the other hand if you really want isolation and not to have to worry about people breaking into your house, put up a plague infection warning sign outside!

I remember my plague vaccination way back when in the navy. my arm was sore for days. that vaccine sucks!

I jest, but this is just the sort of garbage that I have to wade through to sort out the truth from the lies. How do we know that this is rag-style sensationalist drivel? Well, first: I am suspicious of any headline that ends in an exclamation point . . . I mean really . . . This sort of punctution regards the following headlines with equal import:

President Obama Develops Wart on Chin!

Thermonuclear Missles Launched on Moscow!

In my experience, such punctuation is reserved for articles that either need a lot of hype to make them sell or are direct attempts to induce panic. Real news of true import needs no exclamation point . . . The facts speak for themselves.

There seems to be a lot of hysteria about the flu cases in Ukraine that the situation doesn't warrant. There is no 'marshal law' edict in effect. Schools are closed every year when there are seasonal flu epidemics. This year's closure by Yulia Tymoshenko likely has some political motivation due to the election campaign. There was panic buying of medicine in a bout of normal local hysteria, but there have not been a particularly high number of H1N1 cases or deaths.

I jest, but this is just the sort of garbage that I have to wade through to sort out the truth from the lies. How do we know that this is rag-style sensationalist drivel? Well, first: I am suspicious of any headline that ends in an exclamation point . . . I mean really . . . This sort of punctution regards the following headlines with equal import:

President Obama Develops Wart on Chin!

Thermonuclear Missles Launched on Moscow!

In my experience, such punctuation is reserved for articles that either need a lot of hype to make them sell or are direct attempts to induce panic. Real news of true import needs no exclamation point . . . The facts speak for themselves.

There is no 'marshal law' edict in effect. Schools are closed every year when there are seasonal flu epidemics. This year's closure by Yulia Tymoshenko likely has some political motivation due to the election campaign.

Hey, CB;

I don't doubt the possibility of what you're saying, but could you provide links to show that there is not marshal law, and that schools close every year during seasonal flu epidemics? I don't discount anecdotal accounts . . . Indeed, sometimes they are more reliable sources than the mainstream news. But, unless I personally know the person, or have been following them for a long time, I like to cross-reference.

The political undercurrents are well documented. The numbers of ill and deaths are in dispute. The severity and symptoms of the most serious cases is likewise questionable. Whether there is a real danger or not, it is obvious to me that this event is being used politically. The question is, "Is there a real underlying threat?" . . . I'm not convinced either way, but I'm leaning toward your conclusion, of late . . .

Cloudfire, I can assure you that I speak from first hand knowledge - don't you think for instance, that if NYC was under marshall law that the residents would know about it? The link to the Kyiv post can provide an overview of the main concerns of people in the capital. As for the school closings - I heard this first hand in a discussion about the situation, but I have also seen it stated in news stories. If I come across one again I will post it.

Cloudfire, I can assure you that I speak from first hand knowledge - don't you think for instance, that if NYC was under marshall law that the residents would know about it? The link to the Kyiv post can provide an overview of the main concerns of people in the capital. As for the school closings - I heard this first hand in a discussion about the situation, but I have also seen it stated in news stories. If I come across one again I will post it.

Thanks, CB . . . That clarifies matters a lot. I couldn't tell from the context of your earlier post whether you were relating things that you had heard from people who are over there, or not. Please don't get me wrong . . . I don't discount anecdotal information, nor am I doubting your intentions or those of your contacts. I was just trying to get clear about what kind of information you were relaying. Thanks for the info . . . I'll be looking forward to updates from your friends, if you've got time to post them, now and then.

I just got an email from a friend who has been a bit indisposed, of late. The Ukraine epidemic thing had just come up on his radar, and he wanted an update. So I put this together for him, and I'm sharing it here, for those with time constraints:

This morning I received an email packet from a friend who has been so kind as to funnel pertinent articles regarding the Ukraine acute respiratory infection outbreak to me. This has been hugely helpful in rounding out the sources that I access to get a global view of the information (think: dearth) and opinions (think: plethora) that are available out there.

Man, its like some kind of Orwellian fantasy here. I live in West Ukraine, and it was crazy panic for the first week with people and the media spreading wild rumors. But then people started realizing that no one they knew had the flu or had died and everything they were hearing about death was coming from second hand or media sources.

Theres just no sick people.

I went to a big hospital on Friday for a minor injury. And it looked like a normal Ukrainian hospital.They werent over whelmed and were able to see me promptly.

Sure theres flu here, I got it last month before all this started happening. But its just normal flu.

The good thing now is that since people arent seeing dead people and no one really knows of anyone whos died. The people now think its just a political stunt for the elections in January.

I personally think its more about this countries financial situation. I believe Ukraine is real close to default and if it goes, how many Western European banks will go with it? So you see, its always good to have a flu epidemic handy when a region of the world descends into economic chaos.

On Friday Im going to check the prices on a few things that Im tracking, to see if a form of hyperinflation is setting in. All I know is that prices are going up but I cant tell if its a normal amount of inflation for this country or if it has picked up its pace.

Anyway all this said, dont worry about the swine flu. So far its just propaganda, rest assured I will be the first to put out the warning if it becomes real and people are really dieing.

Man, its like some kind of Orwellian fantasy here. I live in West Ukraine, and it was crazy panic for the first week with people and the media spreading wild rumors. But then people started realizing that no one they knew had the flu or had died and everything they were hearing about death was coming from second hand or media sources.

Theres just no sick people.

I went to a big hospital on Friday for a minor injury. And it looked like a normal Ukrainian hospital.They werent over whelmed and were able to see me promptly.

Sure theres flu here, I got it last month before all this started happening. But its just normal flu.

The good thing now is that since people arent seeing dead people and no one really knows of anyone whos died. The people now think its just a political stunt for the elections in January.

I personally think its more about this countries financial situation. I believe Ukraine is real close to default and if it goes, how many Western European banks will go with it? So you see, its always good to have a flu epidemic handy when a region of the world descends into economic chaos.

On Friday Im going to check the prices on a few things that Im tracking, to see if a form of hyperinflation is setting in. All I know is that prices are going up but I cant tell if its a normal amount of inflation for this country or if it has picked up its pace.

Anyway all this said, dont worry about the swine flu. So far its just propaganda, rest assured I will be the first to put out the warning if it becomes real and people are really dieing.

Thanks for the post, CB . . . Lots of "anonymous" information these days, it seems . . . It certainly is hard to lay one's hands on a good hard facts in the Ukraine . . .

This may or may not be a genuine post. It may be a disinformant post. It is certainly inaccurate, as there are documented deaths due to an upspike in "acute respiratory infections". It's a data point, I suppose, but it's in pencil, on my mental chart . . .

I've done some digging on the probable number of deaths in the Ukraine. Thanks to BSV for steering me to a well-considered article that I reviewed on my blog . In it the author proposes a method for determining the case fatality rate for the Ukraine flu strain. I think that his reasoning is sound enough to say that the number of deaths due to this upspike in acute respiratory infections in the Ukraine is something in the 4-figure order of magnitude. I'm no mathematician, but that's not zero, where I come from . . .

Cloudfire, I posted that anecdote because it fits exactly with what I hear from people I know in Kyiv. I don't know people in the west of the country, but that is one region that has been mentioned as having quite a few cases. I believe the Kyiv Post had a breakdown of deaths by region, and while there are some, it wasn't clear that the number was much larger than the 'normal' numbers from previous years. Given the numbers that have been reported so far, the poster's comment that he and his acquaintances don't know anyone who has died is entirely reasonable.

I have traveled to Ukraine a number of times in the past decade, as well as to Russia, and have friends and contacts in both countries. While Ukraine has something of an independent press, 'official' sources are not entirely trustworthy - like in the States only more-so. There is a geopolitical struggle going on there, along with an internal power struggle amongst the oligarchs who control the political scene prior to the election in January, as well as a severe case of the financial disease that is aflicting the world economy. Sorting it all out from afar from public sources presents a nearly impossible task - therefore I am rather more inclined to trust first hand sources than I am the ruminations armchair analysts and western pundits.

If something serious goes down there that affects normal people I will know about it within 48 hours via direct communication. So far food prices and general economic difficulties top the list of genuine concerns (difficulties with health and the healthcare system being perennial fixtures of life).

[Translated from Russian, first published in English by Infowars Ireland]

Based on autopsies, we have come to the conclusion: it’s not pneumonia, but cardiopulmonary insufficiency and cardiogenic shock... The virus enters directly into the lungs, there is bleeding... Antibiotics should not be used...

Why do we have such a high mortality rate in the country?

Because people are going to pharmacies to get medicine instead of going to their doctors to be treated... No it is not pneumonic plague. It’s all nonsense... antibiotics do not help... Those with strong immune systems will survive. People with weak immune systems will succumb to the illness... Face Masks provide 30% extra protection. Wearing glasses gives an additional 10% protection, that is 40%, because the virus penetrates the mucose membranes. <MORE>

Cloudfire, I posted that anecdote because it fits exactly with what I hear from people I know in Kyiv. I don't know people in the west of the country, but that is one region that has been mentioned as having quite a few cases. I believe the Kyiv Post had a breakdown of deaths by region, and while there are some, it wasn't clear that the number was much larger than the 'normal' numbers from previous years. Given the numbers that have been reported so far, the poster's comment that he and his acquaintances don't know anyone who has died is entirely reasonable.

I have traveled to Ukraine a number of times in the past decade, as well as to Russia, and have friends and contacts in both countries. While Ukraine has something of an independent press, 'official' sources are not entirely trustworthy - like in the States only more-so. There is a geopolitical struggle going on there, along with an internal power struggle amongst the oligarchs who control the political scene prior to the election in January, as well as a severe case of the financial disease that is aflicting the world economy. Sorting it all out from afar from public sources presents a nearly impossible task - therefore I am rather more inclined to trust first hand sources than I am the ruminations armchair analysts and western pundits.

If something serious goes down there that affects normal people I will know about it within 48 hours via direct communication. So far food prices and general economic difficulties top the list of genuine concerns (difficulties with health and the healthcare system being perennial fixtures of life).

Don't get me wrong, CB . . . I like to hear anecdotal news, and I agree that it can sometimes be more reliable than "official" news. And, there are some pretty big assumptions in any mathematical extrapolation. However, I know from experience that there can be a pretty significant epidemic going on without the general public noticing. I've seen this a few times, as an ICU nurse . . . But I'll give you a less exotic example: I was a mid-to-late teenager during the height of the Viet Nam war. About 220,000 men died in that war, and I didn't personally know any of them, even casually. I didn't even know anybody who was injured in Viet Nam. In fact, in spite of the fact that I was about two years younger than prime draft age at the height of the war, and my friends and I went to school with and generally dated guys of draft age, I didn't even know anybody who went to Viet Nam. My knowledge of death in Viet Nam has come entirely from the media. I can't point to one first-hand account of that war. Even big numbers can be pretty diluted when you're on the ground . . .

My point is this: that although on-the-ground accounts can be useful for a positive identification of a problem, they aren't very sensitive when negating a phenomenon. IMHO.

[Translated from Russian, first published in English by Infowars Ireland]

Based on autopsies, we have come to the conclusion: it’s not pneumonia, but cardiopulmonary insufficiency and cardiogenic shock... The virus enters directly into the lungs, there is bleeding... Antibiotics should not be used...

Why do we have such a high mortality rate in the country?

Because people are going to pharmacies to get medicine instead of going to their doctors to be treated... No it is not pneumonic plague. It’s all nonsense... antibiotics do not help... Those with strong immune systems will survive. People with weak immune systems will succumb to the illness... Face Masks provide 30% extra protection. Wearing glasses gives an additional 10% protection, that is 40%, because the virus penetrates the mucose membranes. <MORE>

I concur, treatment-wise, with Bachinsky. No antibiotics. I also advise face masks and protective goggles, if possible. I won't personally take Tamiflu . . . I'd rather use preventive nutrition and elderberry in the acute phase.

I hear what he's saying about the symptoms, progression, mode of death, and rate of lethality, but he's a single source. I'd like to hear confirmation from other sources.

Thanks for digging up that interview, DTM. I'd seen a few out-of-context excerpts, but that's all until now.