95 comments:

"Most sex is bad sex" must be a consequence either of living in cold climates or being old[er]. Most of my sex is great, but most of it has been with the same person. I haven't done any one night stands. I'd make an exceptional for Brett Favre, but not in the bathroom. That has Minneapolis Airport Restroom written all over it.

No, no, no, Ann. Women seduce men for all sorts of reasons that men live (sometimes just long enough) to regret.

PS Disagree that most sex is bad. Wright makes the big distinction of first time se (or at least sex outside some sort of relationship; i.e., second or third time) and that's where you're coming from, but you need to make that distinction.

Bad sex pounds some sense into you, and helps to inform you of how to find good sex. That's if you pay attention.

I'd disagree with the 50% bad sex thing. But, I think that this is individual. Depends on your willingness to learn from experience, your tastes, etc. In my life, I'd say the ratio is more 70% good, 30% bad.

Even the bad served some purpose. You learn a lot about people both from good and bad sex. Bad sex has often taught me how much other people are hurting and hoping to find a way out of hurting so much.

You don't quit something that is worthwhile, just because elements of it are distasteful or difficult.

She states clearly her own preferences for sex, and these preferences are mostly for the female norms: satisfaction within a conventional relationship, consideration, conformity to social notions of niceness and propriety, etc.

This falls short for a lot of men who see sex as much as a physical challenge, an avenue for acrobatics and experimentation and outrage, or just good natured social hilarity.

Bad sex isn't a specific set of circumstances or characteristics. It's incompatibility.

A swinger needs a swinger for a partner. Minus that, you've got two very unhappy people. In the same vein, people who feel that sex is very serious and personal need a partner who feels the same.

"I'd disagree with the 50% bad sex thing. But, I think that this is individual. Depends on your willingness to learn from experience, your tastes, etc. In my life, I'd say the ratio is more 70% good, 30% bad."

I'm looking at the whole mass of humanity in one big sex-having group. Total sexual encounters. I'm guessing 50% are bad. I'm certainly not saying 50% of what I've had is bad, but I've been pickier than the people in the whole mass who are racking up the total number of instances of sex. The go-to-a-bar type people like Roethlisberger that we were talking about.

If you want to be alone on an issue and take the most transgrssive, out of the mainstream point of view, just make the argument that sex is inherently good and good for you.

That said, it turns out that, as with many things in life, if your expectations about sex fail to match closely enough with the realities of it, you are likely to be disappointed.

Many things in our culture -- movies, TV shows, books -- make it easy for people to have unrealistic expectations about sexual experiences.

That is why having sex with people who are experienced enough to have their expectations proeperly aligned with reality can be more fun & rewarding.

The really crazy idea is that people should enter into marriages, in which sex plays such a huge part, without having had sex at all. In no other similarly important human endeavor do so many people thing that the best preparation is a complete lack of experience.

Plus, I think it's important to uphold standards of goodness. By saying 50% of sex is bad, I'm telling people they need to aspire to better. There's a very good chance that what you are doing isn't good enough. Isn't that inspiring? Don't have sex if you're just going to do something bad. Help improve the statistic... the statistic that I made up.

It's just the nature of my biz. I've been a professional musician all my life, at just about every level of the biz.

So, there have been a couple of times in my life when I've had a girlfriend who was a prostitute. (Surprise!)

One was, as common wisdom dictates, incredibly unhappy, beat up and drug addled. The other was very happy with her life, a hell of a lot of fun, and a font of wisdom about people derived from her sexual escapades.

What you would describe as bad sex, she just saw as the rumble and tumble of a hard life that she loved. And she thought that all sex, no matter how apparently disgraceful, taught her almost instantly about the soul of her partner.

And, she thought that every sex act she engaged in had a element of love within.

"She states clearly her own preferences for sex, and these preferences are mostly for the female norms: satisfaction within a conventional relationship, consideration, conformity to social notions of niceness and propriety, etc."

Oh, bullshit. That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that a woman may look back on what she did, what she consented to, and feel resentful that it didn't work out the way she wanted. To claim rape is quite wrong in that situation. My position, implied, not sledgehammered, is that women should take responsibility for their own actions and if they pursue an underhanded way of trying to acquire something through submitting to bad sex, they should face the consequences when it doesn't work out. I've never lived my life that way and I don't recommend it. I'm mocking those women for not taking responsibility and for wanting a "nice boyfriend" and being vindictive if they don't get what they want through sex.

The issue of whether women should want "nice boyfriends" or what kind of partner I have wanted is irrelevant to this point.

"What you would describe as bad sex, she just saw as the rumble and tumble of a hard life that she loved. And she thought that all sex, no matter how apparently disgraceful, taught her almost instantly about the soul of her partner. And, she thought that every sex act she engaged in had a element of love within."

"The really crazy idea is that people should enter into marriages, in which sex plays such a huge part, without having had sex at all. In no other similarly important human endeavor do so many people thing that the best preparation is a complete lack of experience."

On the other hand, when someone does a study or survey or whatnot, the people in the demographic most likely to adhere to that and more or less accomplish it report greater satisfaction with their sexual lives.

Even if it's nothing more than not realizing what they are missing, it's still a lower level of dissatisfaction than those with greater experience report having.

My best guess, however, is that when you're not supposed to go all the way until you're married, even if you eventually fail at that, you spend a whole lot more time in foreplay prior to marriage which isn't "no experience" but actually very valuable experience.

The really crazy idea is that people should enter into marriages, in which sex plays such a huge part, without having had sex at all. In no other similarly important human endeavor do so many people thing that the best preparation is a complete lack of experience.

That's been the Lefty, hippy-dippy position for the last 40 years.

Statistics on the matter tend to indicate the opposite.

Ann Althouse said...

Here's a longer version of the discussion about Roethlisberger. I cut into it to make a point, but there is no way that I am the blamer of men here. I stand up to Bob on this, and I want credit.

Watched the whole Super Bowl section and I just don't see you doing it. Sorry.

If you had said, "She was a real dummy for going with him and way too many women do this and come to regret it later", I'd agree.

What makes sex truly good is that you are sharing an extremely intimate part of yourself with another person. If you have a low quality sexual relationships, you are destroying that part of yourself. If you are a prostitute, you no longer have anything intimate to give. The sex is nothing. It simply doesn't matter.

"The really crazy idea is that people should enter into marriages, in which sex plays such a huge part, without having had sex at all. In no other similarly important human endeavor do so many people thing that the best preparation is a complete lack of experience."

It may defy common sense, but many marrages (maybe a majority) world wide are still arranged, still do exactly that, and are surprisingly more stable than modern Western marriages. I would propose the reason for that is the expectations are that a couple has to make things work, there is shame and other significant factors if things do not work, and the emphasis is on property, children and duty, with sex more of a benefit and means to greater obligations than a primary focus.

I always thought bad sex was more a symptom than the central basis of a permanent relationship. Good sex does not always mean a good relationship (although generally it means you are compatable), but bad sex means something is wrong.

"The really crazy idea is that people should enter into marriages, in which sex plays such a huge part, without having had sex at all. In no other similarly important human endeavor do so many people thing that the best preparation is a complete lack of experience."

To continue my point about intimacy. The person who waits for marriage has done something that preserves the potential for intimacy. This counts for much more than experience with techniques and a larger data base for comparative performance.

The issue of whether women should want "nice boyfriends" or what kind of partner I have wanted is irrelevant to this point.

Bullshit right back atcha.

You're a feminist. The very essence of feminism is the traditional female obsession with coming to a consensus about what is permissible sexual behavior.

Forming a consensus within the tribe about what kinds of sexual actions and relationships are permissible is equally the goal of Christian and feminist women. Same principle, different set of criteria.

Individuality in sexuality is rare in women. Most women are struggling to find a herd to belong to.

Notice how quick you are to disparage a woman who is a maverick. That's typical. She must be brainwashed or tricking men.

In fact, the woman I referred to was well aware of that strategy among other women. Very smart woman.

What makes sex truly good is that you are sharing an extremely intimate part of yourself with another person. If you have a low quality sexual relationships, you are destroying that part of yourself. If you are a prostitute, you no longer have anything intimate to give. The sex is nothing. It simply doesn't matter.

Spoken like a true upper middle class white American woman who's lived a gilded life shielded from hardship.

Your experience is extremely narrow. You are extremely condescending toward women who live outside your experience, which is no surprise, since you are a feminist.

You've also got the missionary urge, which is common to Evangelicals and feminists.

I don’t usually, but I really agree with you, here, “bad” does serve a purpose. It reflects a direction not to go, next time, which is a good thing to know if you’re aspiring for better. I’m sure, though, that what Roethlisberger thought he was getting was good…for him…right then, in an incredibly unknowingly, selfish way. My guess, is what you’re really saying, A, is that good sex is loving sex, with equal amounts of giving and receiving. The ‘go-to-the-bar’, isn’t that, it’s all about getting. Two different perspectives on good vs. bad.

Why are the middle age bloggers so interested in SEX? Sex is only a small part of a friendship or a loyal emotional relationship. IMO they are really interested in the power of Social Gotcha accusations of imperfect relationships among humans who are caught doing dumb things and must be judged for it. They want the Saudi Arabian Morality Police's job. Compare Wright to a Law School professor's take that Judging requires a bright line identifying who is and who is not a violator. But Wright's Blogging world instincts just love making blanket condemnations, much like the religious folks who say that sex is vulgar and cannot be seen or heard in polite society where married folks sleep in separate single beds.

One of the great myths of life is that all bad guys and girls get their just deserts, get taken down and get forced into a life of conformity and goodness.

Shit, I've been in the music biz my entire life. First band I was in was bankrolled by a coke dealer.

Some bad guys/girls just have a rollicking good time, go about their business of living on the wrong side of the law, are sensible enough to never get caught in their escapades and laugh their asses off at the people who think that sooner or later they must come to a bad end.

As to shout's "happy hooker", she sounds a little like The Blonde ("Tough as nails. Just different from you. More like a man. Such women do exist."), but The Blonde was raised with 3 brothers, so the same effect.

Although I have to say, in the case of both Ann and The Blonde, it's more strength of character (I'm going by perceptions in Ann's case) than toughness, and there's the fact that both are big-hearted and there's a caring there you don't find with tough.

Ann Althouse said...

"If you had said, "She was a real dummy for going with him and way too many women do this and come to regret it later", I'd agree."

I don't care about whether you agree with me. I am challenging you to tell me the part where I "put bad sex all on men." It's simply not true.

My point is that you do a lot to address how the woman is put into a situation by the man where she comes to regret it. It's the tenor of the first half of the clip. You never come back and say anything about what women might do in the same vein and leave the impression that it's all on the men.

One of the great myths of life is that all bad guys and girls get their just deserts, get taken down and get forced into a life of conformity and goodness.

Shit, I've been in the music biz my entire life. First band I was in was bankrolled by a coke dealer.

Some bad guys/girls just have a rollicking good time, go about their business of living on the wrong side of the law, are sensible enough to never get caught in their escapades and laugh their asses off at the people who think that sooner or later they must come to a bad end.

Surprise!

Sometimes, the bad guys/girls win!

As far as you can see.

My observation is that our sins catch up with all of us, maybe not in the obvious way or the way some people would like, but it happens.

My observation is that our sins catch up with all of us, maybe not in the obvious way or the way some people would like, but it happens.

Sins are an entirely different issue.

Sin is, in my opinion, an action that deliberately harms another.

Enjoying a life of rollicking good sexual fun doesn't have to harm another person, although the general belief is that it should.

The variety of human personality and experience is much broader than people think.

I set out when I was young to find a way to experience as much from life, in as many different places and among as many different kinds of people, as I could.

Let's face it. It's smarter from a standpoint of financial security and wear and tear to live a more sheltered life. I've lived a fairly wild life. But, I like what I did. And, believe me, there are people, male and female, out there who defy category and description.

I wouldn't recommend the way I've lived. But, it was what I wanted to do. Some tragedy and losses along the way are inevitable, no matter how you live.

So what is "bad sex"? It is seldom the experience itself. But you know it when you wake up in the morning with no love in your heart and a relationship that makes claims on you. So if you don't want the relationship in the morning, then you must only have pay for services deals that include her going away in the morning. Rothlesberger is finding out that not every drunken co-ed is a groupie using him. He escaped by the skin of his teeth this time, and I expect that he will follow the rules for his own protection from now on. But Crazy #4 is probably just getting started.

What makes sex truly good is that you are sharing an extremely intimate part of yourself with another person. If you have a low quality sexual relationships, you are destroying that part of yourself. If you are a prostitute, you no longer have anything intimate to give. The sex is nothing. It simply doesn't matter.

And at the risk of beating a dead horse.

This is your preference, Althouse. That's how you feel. Amazingly, not all women prefer what you prefer, or feel what you feel.

Once again, I've got to state that this is the outlook of an upper middle class American white woman who thinks that getting dirty is personal degradation.

Most women in this world didn't grow up with this "clean hands" obsession of upper middle class American white women.

There's something to be said for your outlook. On the other hand, lots of people (including some women) find your outlook confining and boring.

"My point is that you do a lot to address how the woman is put into a situation by the man where she comes to regret it."

I do not say "the woman is put into a situation by the man" or anything like that. I'm all about women taking responsibility for where they put themselves and distinguishing nonconsensual things. I don't think you can find a quote of mine in there that supports what you are saying.

"It's the tenor of the first half of the clip. You never come back and say anything about what women might do in the same vein and leave the impression that it's all on the men."

I think that's something that subjectively came into your head that is not supported by my words. Don't refer vaguely to "the tenor." Quote something I said. That's my challenge. I don't think you can.

This is your preference, Althouse. That's how you feel. Amazingly, not all women prefer what you prefer, or feel what you feel. Once again, I've got to state that this is the outlook of an upper middle class American white woman who thinks that getting dirty is personal degradation. Most women in this world didn't grow up with this "clean hands" obsession of upper middle class American white women."

You're being insulting and downright racist. Also you have consistently distorted what I've said. I'm tired of responding and not being listened to.

"Once again, I've got to state that this is the outlook of an upper middle class American white woman who thinks that getting dirty is personal degradation."

Is it?

It's not like people live in a box all taped up without air holes.

Do you really think that "upper middle class American white women" don't and haven't known or been friends with women who believed and acted on the notion of consequence free sex and seen how that worked out for them?

It works out just about as well as the the notion that you don't have to be picky about your baby-daddy on account of you're not getting married and tied to him and his extended family forever.

"What I *heard* when I listened to the conversation was that the bad sex women had was what they asked for and then regretted later. I don't know how this gets to be "all on men.""

No. I think women have unrealistic hopes or take chances on outcomes when they decide to have sex. When it doesn't work out the way they wanted, they should take responsibility for the choice they made, not try to act like they didn't choose. If you're too childish for that... well, children shouldn't have sex. Preferably, women wouldn't have sex as a means to an end, but even when it's an end in itself, it might be disappointing.

You can get carried away sometimes. It seemed like a good idea at the time, I guess, to give a quarterback a blow-job in the bathroom. (But which facility did they use? I realize I took it for granted that it was the men's room (seems the obvious place to go for something sleazy), but I don't think that was made explicit. Maybe he led her to the women's room, so she would feel more comfortable.)

I had issues with bad sex when I was younger. I discussed it once with a shrink I was seeing at the time, and he tried to convince me that there was no such thing as bad sex. When I told him about an experience I found particularly unenjoyable, he told me that I did, in fact, enjoy it, that humans are wired to enjoy sex, and it was only afterward that I convinced myself that I didn't enjoy it because I felt guilty. (This was not something that I believed.)

I've never been presented with the opportunity of giving a blow job to a pro athlete. I'm not sure I would have turned it down, had the occasion arisen (though, please, somebody more esthetic than the Steeler's QB). It's easy to criticize athletes for being bad boys. But they are constantly being presented with sexual opportunities. People throw themselves at them. It's hard to imagine being made of such stuff that one would never succumb to the temptation.

Young men especially jocks have to be very careful. A young woman gets infatuated with them and a little drunk and they "hook-up". She later regrets the whole thing and wants to call it rape or at least sexual assault. My son was a college athlete and they called those girls cleat chasers. Even the other girls laughed about it.

Most first encounter sex for men is not bad, even the bad ones are good. Ask most men if they want first encounter sex tonight and you'll get what I mean.

It's the multiple encounters that are bad for men. they often result in unwanted dependents, wives, alimony, child support and wasted lives. That's bad sex. Consequently if you asked most men if they want repeat sex tonight with the same woman, you will get substantially less enthusiasm.

"My point is that you do a lot to address how the woman is put into a situation by the man where she comes to regret it."

I do not say "the woman is put into a situation by the man" or anything like that. I'm all about women taking responsibility for where they put themselves and distinguishing nonconsensual things. I don't think you can find a quote of mine in there that supports what you are saying.

"It's the tenor of the first half of the clip. You never come back and say anything about what women might do in the same vein and leave the impression that it's all on the men."

I think that's something that subjectively came into your head that is not supported by my words. Don't refer vaguely to "the tenor." Quote something I said. That's my challenge. I don't think you can.

OK, here goes:

"The guy didn't turn out to be a nice boyfriend for you, he wasn't nice to you, he wasn't interested in your sexual pleasure...".

You're being insulting and downright racist. Also you have consistently distorted what I've said. I'm tired of responding and not being listened to.

Where's Crack when I need him?

Accusations of racism are now so commonplace and empty that they are virtually admissions of defeat. I'll accept it for that.

The second part just elaborates what you said earlier: It's all about your ego. You've virtually defined good sex as servicing your ego. This is, once again, the dominant view of American upper middle class feminist white women.

Surprisingly, a whole lot of men aren't interested in serving your ego. In fact, you might say that we're headed for a world war that's centered on this issue.

Feminism is a missionary movement. Since I'm from a white trash background, I see this from a very different perspective... romantic alliances with lower class women from third world countries. They are well aware of the condescending missionary zeal behind feminism. May surprise you, Althouse, to know that those lower class third world women that I know (and I know a lot of them) absolutely loathe you because of your condescending missionary zeal.

And what is this fight about? In the Muslim world, men hold to the value that it's all about servicing their egos, and they've got the oil money to back it up. Those third world women I know see reinforcing their man's ego as the key to their financial stability and success. They are allied with their men, and opposed to you.

And, I am responding and listening to you, just not in the way you want. Because I'm about my ego, not yours.

Sex has become a world-wide battle ground, courtesy of missionary feminists. I'm looking for the best deal for myself. You're looking for the best deal for yourself. I'm not worrying too much about your ego or your feelings. That's your problem.

""The guy didn't turn out to be a nice boyfriend for you, he wasn't nice to you, he wasn't interested in your sexual pleasure...". There was no corresponding "she". It was all on the man."

Well, you need to put that in context. It was a criticism of women for expecting to get something and then blaming the man when it didn't turn out according to a self-serving calculation. Did I ever say that the man owed nice-boyfriendness to the woman who slipped into the men's room to give him a blow job?

@ shoutingthomas You have embraced the role of racist -- both toward white and nonwhite women. I can only imagine why, but it has nothing to do with me. I'm not interested in hearing you say what women think. I consider it prime bullshit. You are not the mouthpiece of the nonwhite women of the world, and making these nonexistent puppets say they hate me is utter nonsense. The notion that nonwhite women are very sexy compared to white women is classic, loathsome racism against all women.

"The guy didn't turn out to be a nice boyfriend for you, he wasn't nice to you, he wasn't interested in your sexual pleasure...". There was no corresponding "she". It was all on the man."

Well, you need to put that in context. It was a criticism of women for expecting to get something and then blaming the man when it didn't turn out according to a self-serving calculation. Did I ever say that the man owed nice-boyfriendness to the woman who slipped into the men's room to give him a blow job?

Sure didn't sound that way and I've replayed the clip a couple of times. I even went back to the original Bloggingheads and reran the whole segment. You made it sound as if the woman got into a situation and it turned out badly for her because of the man.

As I said, if you had expressed then what you're saying now, we'd have no disagreement. The context is the set up for the idea a lot of sex is bad sex and you appeared to be putting the blame on the man. Even if the context is the Rothlisberger incident, you just never made that qualification, that it was a criticism of the woman - or, at least, you didn't make it explicitly enough.

Or are we back to the poetry with a sledgehammer disagreement a while back? :)

I think I agree with your premise, Professor. It seems to me that there are too many cases where the girl said "yes" because she was mildly inebriated, and then the next morning decides that she really wishes she had said "no."

If "no" means "no" then "yes" has to mean "yes."

I don't see as many reports about these sorts of situations as I used to, but I don't know whether the legal system, and campus judicial systems, have caught up with the notion that women have some responsibility for consensual sex that they regret the next morning, or whether the papers simply don't report it anymore.

I'm sure Warren Beatty and Tiger Woods have a different outlook on this, but I find first time sexual encounters awkward and self conscious. I suppose you could describe it as bad sex, but, of course, bad sex is always better than a trip to the dentist. Good sex happens with the confluence of sensuality and affection. If a woman is very nice or even just very pretty that can happen, but there's an awful lot of vulnerability and reticence that inhibit first time encounters. In my experience it is very hard for a first night experience to flower and grow if the man has suppurating sores on his penile shaft or the woman is afflicted with a bad smelling discharge in the vaginal area. That's why a certain amount of courtship is necessary. and it's probably best to forego the discount hookers.s.....I had a Dominican girl friend who tried very hard to act respectable in bed. It was a tremondous turn on when she failed. I also knew a well educated and accomplished white girl who tried very hard to be wanton and depraved. It was her way of being respectable.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but the latest edition of LA WEEKLY (both online & hard-copy--will change tomorrow w. new edition) features its entire issue on "Sex and the City" with multiple surveys, etc., from UCLA students to cruisin' the bar scene to online sex/dating. VERY interesting/revealing, VERY witty and well-written and absolutely lol funny in LOTS of places. WELL worth a read.

I've only had bad sex once. It wasn't really bad, just sort of disappointing. She said she didn't know how to do it. I didn't believe her because I thought it was not possible. We were both college students, she had just graduated, I had a semester to go. We met in a bar. She was cheerful, friendly, and cooperative, but when the main event came, she just lay there like a slab of meat. Nothing I did made any difference. Believe me, the things I did usually make a difference. BTW, I've had sex when I did not climax. To me, that is not bad sex as long my partner enjoys it.

OTOH, some guys think bad sex is going to bed with an ugly woman. Beer goggles prevents this but waking up with one is a different matter.

Ed, I don't think Althouse was putting anything on men. It's fairly common behavior for a woman to sleep with a man, before reaching any level of real intimacy, in hopes of converting him into an actual boyfriend.

Althouse is just saying that if the woman takes that gamble, and it doesn't go her way, she shouldn't blame the man, who was never a boyfriend in the first place, but should realize that it was a gamble she chose to take on her own.

Althouse is just saying that if the woman takes that gamble, and it doesn't go her way, she shouldn't blame the man, who was never a boyfriend in the first place, but should realize that it was a gamble she chose to take on her own.

BINGO. The fact that so many guys somehow took this as blaming men for everything just demonstrates that women and men really do speak different languages.

My husband and I have been together for over 3 decades - one might think we'd have long ago plumbed the depths of each other's souls (or some such nonsense) but amazingly enough, he's still a man and I'm still a woman and sometimes we still misunderstand each other :p

The act itself can be damned enjoyable (at the time) but the intended result may be very different than expected... men, being the simple creatures we are, are more likely to say, "Well, it didn't end up working out quite the way I expected, but that romp on the beach sure was fun!" ... and then move on with a smile and no regrets.

The main problem with this entire line of discussion is has to be about the woman's interpratation due to the fact that women are in the driver's seat legally. They are the only party that can delineate between "bad sex" and "rape" - legally.

Much like the debate right now about the "redefining" of rape in the Senate bill, the controversy is that a large vocal percentage of women like having this power - legally - and don't want to see it defined. Wiggle room is power.

I've always thought sex was a little bit like pizza. When it's good, it's really good. When it's bad...it's still pretty good. Unfortunately, as I get older, I find that I eat less pizza than I used to.