when the perfect comes hebrews 9 28 the appearing of the 2nd time is apart from sin !!! for salvation

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

--1 Cor 15

Two conditions must be satisfied:

1)The mortal [soul] must put on immortality [I believe this was achieved at the cross]

2)The corruptible [body] must put on incorruption [I believe this will happen when he appears the second time without sin unto salvation--that is, complete redemption]

Then--death is swallowed up in victory.

amen ! even the fear of death will be disolved sis !

to me there is a seen body and an unseen1) hidden, concealed, secret body ....

1Pe 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. Love will conquer all rose

Chris

So you see this as the physical body? So, in this case, you see it as first the spiritual - then the natural? or you see both as spiritual?

We start out as natural body, dead spirit. Then our spirit is born of Spirit. This is the earnest of our full redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

"earnest"

G728ἀῤῥαβώνarrhabōnar-hrab-ohn'Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.

Even as we are crossed over from death to life, it is still only the earnest, the downpayment.

The second man is made a quickening spirit. What do you think will happen when that quickening spirit hits our physical bodies from the inside?

"quickening" [spirit]

G2227ζωοποιέωzōopoieōdzo-op-oy-eh'-oFrom the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we first believe, correct? Would this not be "the earnest ofthe spirit"? And are not "babes" in Christ "yet carnal"?

To be carnally minded is death, right?

So are "babes" who are, indeed, "sealed by the holy spirit of promise" (the earnest/downpayment of the spirit?) born again? born from above? alive in Christ?

IOW, have they already passed from death unto life or are they just beginning the process, through which they must "mature" and "go on unto perfect"... go on to receive "the adoption of sons"? Being "no more CHILDREN", tossed to and fro, but SONS?

So you see this as the physical body? So, in this case, you see it as first the spiritual - then the natural? or you see both as spiritual?

We start out as natural body, dead spirit. Then our spirit is born of Spirit. This is the earnest of our full redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

"earnest"

G728ἀῤῥαβώνarrhabōnar-hrab-ohn'Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.

Even as we are crossed over from death to life, it is still only the earnest, the downpayment.

The second man is made a quickening spirit. What do you think will happen when that quickening spirit hits our physical bodies from the inside?

"quickening" [spirit]

G2227ζωοποιέωzōopoieōdzo-op-oy-eh'-oFrom the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we first believe, correct? Would this not be "the earnest ofthe spirit"? And are not "babes" in Christ "yet carnal"?

To be carnally minded is death, right?

So are "babes" who are, indeed, "sealed by the holy spirit of promise" (the earnest/downpayment of the spirit?) born again? born from above? alive in Christ?

IOW, have they already passed from death unto life or are they just beginning the process, through which they must "mature" and "go on unto perfect"... go on to receive "the adoption of sons"? Being "no more CHILDREN", tossed to and fro, but SONS?

yes they do grow up to the full measure of CHRIST/His gifts which makes whole / perfect complete

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we first believe, correct? Would this not be "the earnest ofthe spirit"? And are not "babes" in Christ "yet carnal"?

To be carnally minded is death, right?

So are "babes" who are, indeed, "sealed by the holy spirit of promise" (the earnest/downpayment of the spirit?) born again? born from above? alive in Christ?

IOW, have they already passed from death unto life or are they just beginning the process, through which they must "mature" and "go on unto perfect"... go on to receive "the adoption of sons"? Being "no more CHILDREN", tossed to and fro, but SONS?

well, yes, of course, we are born from above spiritually. I never denied that.

Romans 8:15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

But, this body will still get old, die, decay, because it is still corruptible. That's just a fact, isn't it? Thus, our bodies are still under bondage [to death], are they not? But Paul makes it clear that adoption will include, as the complete and final act, the redemption of our bodies.

It is the resurrected Christ he is preaching, after all--a man who died and was risen from the dead in a vivified body.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

IOW, have they already passed from death unto life or are they just beginning the process, through which they must "mature" and "go on unto perfect"... go on to receive "the adoption of sons"? Being "no more CHILDREN", tossed to and fro, but SONS?

We are told that believing in Christ, we are overcomers and have already passed from death to life. Who are the overcomers but those that believe that Jesus is the son of God?[1 John 5:5]

That is why, even before the redemption of our bodies, we are able to come to mount Sion...

Hebrews 12:23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Are those spirits of just men made perfect not already immortal souls? Ok, call me a literalist.

Chris

We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we first believe, correct? Would this not be "the earnest ofthe spirit"? And are not "babes" in Christ "yet carnal"?

To be carnally minded is death, right?

So are "babes" who are, indeed, "sealed by the holy spirit of promise" (the earnest/downpayment of the spirit?) born again? born from above? alive in Christ?

IOW, have they already passed from death unto life or are they just beginning the process, through which they must "mature" and "go on unto perfect"... go on to receive "the adoption of sons"? Being "no more CHILDREN", tossed to and fro, but SONS?

well, yes, of course, we are born from above spiritually. I never denied that.

Romans 8:15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

My question is "when" are be "born of the spirit"? As soon as we believe and are sealed, even as "babes" who are "yet carnal".... or at some time later, perhaps when we have gone on unto perfection?

Quote from: Molly

But, this body will still get old, die, decay, because it is still corruptible. That's just a fact, isn't it? Thus, our bodies are still under bondage [to death], are they not?

Of course, but is this "death" the result of sin or mortality? Or do you see them the same - mortality being the result of sin?

Quote from: Molly

But Paul makes it clear that adoption will include, as the complete and final act, the redemption of our bodies

It is the resurrected Christ he is preaching, after all--a man who died and was risen from the dead in a vivified body.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

--Acts 17

Yes, but what does "the redemption of our bodies" mean? Why must it mean that our long since gone and rotted natural bodies are going to one day, somehow, be 'reconstituted' (if you will) and start popping out the physical graves that hold them?

what is this burning? Does it happen while they are physically alive??

or is it a post mortem "burning"??

I believe that the lake of fire is here/now.

Pro 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

If this is the LOF (ie: when literally born?), then when were the tares gathered first before the wheat??

Christ said: "I am come to send fire on the earth". What fire and where is it? And how does it relate to "this fiery trial which is to try you"?

Do we not ALL walk in darkness (being children of the wicked one = tares) before we are born of the spirit and brought into the light? The "wheat" cannot shine forth in the kingdon of God UNTIL the "tares" are removed, correct?

So is it that one person is "a tare" and another person is "wheat" or are "both growing together" in each of us? One needing to be destroyed (burned up = all that hay, wood and stubble) so that the other (gold, silver, precious stones) can shine forth in the kingdom of God (which is "within" right?)?

Logged

Chris

Thinking here that maybe we are getting off of the topic of the thread and, if that is not ok, perhaps another thread should be started to address the lake of fire or the resurrection of the dead, etc?

what is this burning? Does it happen while they are physically alive??

or is it a post mortem "burning"??

I believe that the lake of fire is here/now.

Pro 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

If this is the LOF (ie: when literally born?), then when were the tares gathered first before the wheat??

Christ said: "I am come to send fire on the earth". What fire and where is it? And how does it relate to "this fiery trial which is to try you"?

Do we not ALL walk in darkness (being children of the wicked one = tares) before we are born of the spirit and brought into the light? The "wheat" cannot shine forth in the kingdon of God UNTIL the "tares" are removed, correct?

So is it that one person is "a tare" and another person is "wheat" or are "both growing together" in each of us? One needing to be destroyed (burned up = all that hay, wood and stubble) so that the other (gold, silver, precious stones) can shine forth in the kingdom of God (which is "within" right?)?

gottcha. I understand more where you are coming from. I think this view, which I agree quite a bit with; is personally a "stretch" for what was literally happening to Paul, and gang during his life on earth. But; I definitely see where you are coming from, and imo, is definitely an "inward" application to scripture; and spiritual application;

but;

I also believe the literal events that happened to Jesus, Paul and gang and the wrath that came upon that generation; is a spiritual application but not the "inward approach". I truly believe Paul never saw himself as going through the LOF, as he new; like Noah story; he was having his faith tried (prior to the rains) with a reward (lifted up above the waters inheriting the promised land) when the rains (lof) came upon the wicked. There were tares ("ishmaels, law zealot jews) persucuting the wheat (believers) (2 separate folks) not a tare within persecuting the wheat within.

blessings.

z

On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot

For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; upright men (ie: paul, Noah ) will see his face.

Logged

Chris

gottcha. I understand more where you are coming from. I think this view, which I agree quite a bit with; is personally a "stretch" for what was literally happening to Paul, and gang during his life on earth. But; I definitely see where you are coming from, and imo, is definitely an "inward" application to scripture; and spiritual application;

I did not say that there is no physical/literal application (or that it is only an "inward" experience).

Quote from: Zeek

but;

I also believe the literal events that happened to Jesus, Paul and gang and the wrath that came upon that generation; is a spiritual application but not the "inward approach". I truly believe Paul never saw himself as going through the LOF, as he new; like Noah story; he was having his faith tried (prior to the rains) with a reward (lifted up above the waters inheriting the promised land) when the rains (lof) came upon the wicked. There were tares ("ishmaels, law zealot jews) persucuting the wheat (believers) (2 separate folks) not a tare within persecuting the wheat within.

blessings.

z

On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot

For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; upright men (ie: paul, Noah ) will see his face.

Paul knew very well the difference between being "a child" and being "a son" and he most assuredly knew that he had been "deleivered of the child".

Was he not also familiar with "the wrath of God" and "this fiery trial which is to try you"?

Surely he was! However, you see no connection between the two?

As far as the tares and the wheat being "2 separate folks"; I disagree, but only somewhat.

While one person may be manifesting their nature as "a tare" (unbelieving, walking in darkness and disobedience, etc) and the other as "wheat" (believing and walking in the light of gospel and in the faith of Jesus Christ) that same person who is now being manifest as a "son of God" (wheat) was once walking in darkness/disobedience, having plenty of "hay, wood, and stubble" that needed to be burned up in order for the "wheat" to shine forth in the kingdom of God.

As I see it, it is not "one or the other" but "both growing together until the harvest"... until such a time as the tares can be "separated" from the wheat. And it is only after the separation takes place that wheat can shine forth....

Logged

Zeek

gottcha. I understand more where you are coming from. I think this view, which I agree quite a bit with; is personally a "stretch" for what was literally happening to Paul, and gang during his life on earth. But; I definitely see where you are coming from, and imo, is definitely an "inward" application to scripture; and spiritual application;

I did not say that there is no physical/literal application (or that it is only an "inward" experience).

Quote from: Zeek

but;

I also believe the literal events that happened to Jesus, Paul and gang and the wrath that came upon that generation; is a spiritual application but not the "inward approach". I truly believe Paul never saw himself as going through the LOF, as he new; like Noah story; he was having his faith tried (prior to the rains) with a reward (lifted up above the waters inheriting the promised land) when the rains (lof) came upon the wicked. There were tares ("ishmaels, law zealot jews) persucuting the wheat (believers) (2 separate folks) not a tare within persecuting the wheat within.

blessings.

z

On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot

For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; upright men (ie: paul, Noah ) will see his face.

Paul knew very well the difference between being "a child" and being "a son" and he most assuredly knew that he had been "deleivered of the child".

Was he not also familiar with "the wrath of God" and "this fiery trial which is to try you"?

Surely he was! However, you see no connection between the two?

As far as the tares and the wheat being "2 separate folks"; I disagree, but only somewhat.

While one person may be manifesting their nature as "a tare" (unbelieving, walking in darkness and disobedience, etc) and the other as "wheat" (believing and walking in the light of gospel and in the faith of Jesus Christ) that same person who is now being manifest as a "son of God" (wheat) was once walking in darkness/disobedience, having plenty of "hay, wood, and stubble" that needed to be burned up in order for the "wheat" to shine forth in the kingdom of God.

As I see it, it is not "one or the other" but "both growing together until the harvest"... until such a time as the tares can be "separated" from the wheat. And it is only after the separation takes place that wheat can shine forth....

gottcha. I understand more where you are coming from. I think this view, which I agree quite a bit with; is personally a "stretch" for what was literally happening to Paul, and gang during his life on earth. But; I definitely see where you are coming from, and imo, is definitely an "inward" application to scripture; and spiritual application;

I did not say that there is no physical/literal application (or that it is only an "inward" experience).

Quote from: Zeek

but;

I also believe the literal events that happened to Jesus, Paul and gang and the wrath that came upon that generation; is a spiritual application but not the "inward approach". I truly believe Paul never saw himself as going through the LOF, as he new; like Noah story; he was having his faith tried (prior to the rains) with a reward (lifted up above the waters inheriting the promised land) when the rains (lof) came upon the wicked. There were tares ("ishmaels, law zealot jews) persucuting the wheat (believers) (2 separate folks) not a tare within persecuting the wheat within.

blessings.

z

On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot

For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; upright men (ie: paul, Noah ) will see his face.

Paul knew very well the difference between being "a child" and being "a son" and he most assuredly knew that he had been "deleivered of the child".

Was he not also familiar with "the wrath of God" and "this fiery trial which is to try you"?

Surely he was! However, you see no connection between the two?

As far as the tares and the wheat being "2 separate folks"; I disagree, but only somewhat.

While one person may be manifesting their nature as "a tare" (unbelieving, walking in darkness and disobedience, etc) and the other as "wheat" (believing and walking in the light of gospel and in the faith of Jesus Christ) that same person who is now being manifest as a "son of God" (wheat) was once walking in darkness/disobedience, having plenty of "hay, wood, and stubble" that needed to be burned up in order for the "wheat" to shine forth in the kingdom of God.

As I see it, it is not "one or the other" but "both growing together until the harvest"... until such a time as the tares can be "separated" from the wheat. And it is only after the separation takes place that wheat can shine forth....

would you say that Paul was "hurt" by his second death/lof??

I'd say that depends on how you look at it or how you understand that "hurt" to be perceived.

While one person may be manifesting their nature as "a tare" (unbelieving, walking in darkness and disobedience, etc) and the other as "wheat" (believing and walking in the light of gospel and in the faith of Jesus Christ) that same person who is now being manifest as a "son of God" (wheat) was once walking in darkness/disobedience, having plenty of "hay, wood, and stubble" that needed to be burned up in order for the "wheat" to shine forth in the kingdom of God.

While one person may be manifesting their nature as "a tare" (unbelieving, walking in darkness and disobedience, etc) and the other as "wheat" (believing and walking in the light of gospel and in the faith of Jesus Christ) that same person who is now being manifest as a "son of God" (wheat) was once walking in darkness/disobedience, having plenty of "hay, wood, and stubble" that needed to be burned up in order for the "wheat" to shine forth in the kingdom of God.

Condensed and simplified!

Agreed.

" Everyone is salted with seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt." MaRK 9- 49

"Salt is good, but if the saly loses irs flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another" Mark 9-50

I believe everyone is being salted in the LOF now. Those whom God is working in to believe now are being judged by the spirit of Christ within them that leads the fullness of Christ, then after the full harvest.

God Be with you.

Logged

Doug

While one person may be manifesting their nature as "a tare" (unbelieving, walking in darkness and disobedience, etc) and the other as "wheat" (believing and walking in the light of gospel and in the faith of Jesus Christ) that same person who is now being manifest as a "son of God" (wheat) was once walking in darkness/disobedience, having plenty of "hay, wood, and stubble" that needed to be burned up in order for the "wheat" to shine forth in the kingdom of God.

As I see it, it is not "one or the other" but "both growing together until the harvest"... until such a time as the tares can be "separated" from the wheat. And it is only after the separation takes place that wheat can shine forth....

Jesus said, in the parable of the talents, "I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed." This parable is included in the Olivet Discourse, so Jesus probably meant us to interpret his prophecy, and his teachings, as "talents" committed to our trust. The parable of the talents was meant to encourage us to interpret and apply his teachings, and bring forth fruit for the kingdom of God.

There may well be more than one interpretation that can be applied to the parable of the tares. Wheat is interpreted in the previous parable, the parable of the sower, as the word of God; the parallel with the tares suggests the latter are false teachings. Consider whether or not tares sown by the devil among the wheat during the early history of the church could remain to the end of the world. That could not happen, if those tares represent men. So evidently those tares that remain to the harvest at the end of the world do not represent men, but flawed interpretations of the prophecies of scripture, and false doctrines and theories. Many of these were prevalent in the early centuries of the Christian era. They persist from one generation to another, and are still prevalent today. If so, the false teachings are to be "gathered into bundles and burned."

Jesus said "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity" will be gathered out of his kingdom. [Mat. 13:41] Perhaps "them which do iniquity" are seducing spirits. It is angels who gather them up, and in the prophecy of Rev. 12, there is a war between the angels of Michael, and the angels of the dragon. This pictures spiritual warfare. The dragon and his angels are cast out of heaven, which is a reason for rejoicing by the saints. So it is a parallel to the parable of the tares.

Rev. 12:11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Although the war is between angels, it is the saints who overcome the delusions of Satan, and discover the truth.

While one person may be manifesting their nature as "a tare" (unbelieving, walking in darkness and disobedience, etc) and the other as "wheat" (believing and walking in the light of gospel and in the faith of Jesus Christ) that same person who is now being manifest as a "son of God" (wheat) was once walking in darkness/disobedience, having plenty of "hay, wood, and stubble" that needed to be burned up in order for the "wheat" to shine forth in the kingdom of God.

Condensed and simplified!

The law worketh wrath and leaves one with a perpetual shame, worm that never dies. Grace burns the stubble and leaves one with reward.

For me, the LOF/second death is not the burning via grace through faith (fiery trial of one's faith)

but the wrath that reserved for the ungodly, who held the Truth in unrighteousness (via law).

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

do you all see the wrath of God as the same thing as grace via faith??

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. Heb 10:37 For yet, a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

i'll bow out now, as i've been down this discussion before; and I definitely see both sides; but I believe the "literal" events in history show us the sequence:

Noah did not drown in the "rain", but did have his faith tried (fiery trial) prior to the rains/fire/second death (imo)

David did not count himself as one of the "wicked" who would have fire and brimstone rain upon him.

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous (fiery trial of their faith by grace): but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

The destruction of Jerusalem/temple (fire/wrath from God) was not on the apostles and believers who lived and were faithful to the end; but on those who refused the TRUTH (those who refused to move beyond old covenant mindset, and who died in their sins).

imo, believers go through the fire, but don't die in the fire, as "they never die (imo, second death). The second death is not for them, and imo; is not because they already went through the "second death" earlier for it is not their "lot" (see Psalm scrip above).

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Believe on him and never die.

jmo from what I see in scripture;

blessings

« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 04:29:50 AM by Zeek »

Logged

Chris

While one person may be manifesting their nature as "a tare" (unbelieving, walking in darkness and disobedience, etc) and the other as "wheat" (believing and walking in the light of gospel and in the faith of Jesus Christ) that same person who is now being manifest as a "son of God" (wheat) was once walking in darkness/disobedience, having plenty of "hay, wood, and stubble" that needed to be burned up in order for the "wheat" to shine forth in the kingdom of God.

As I see it, it is not "one or the other" but "both growing together until the harvest"... until such a time as the tares can be "separated" from the wheat. And it is only after the separation takes place that wheat can shine forth....

Jesus said, in the parable of the talents, "I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed." This parable is included in the Olivet Discourse, so Jesus probably meant us to interpret his prophecy, and his teachings, as "talents" committed to our trust. The parable of the talents was meant to encourage us to interpret and apply his teachings, and bring forth fruit for the kingdom of God.

There may well be more than one interpretation that can be applied to the parable of the tares. Wheat is interpreted in the previous parable, the parable of the sower, as the word of God; the parallel with the tares suggests the latter are false teachings. Consider whether or not tares sown by the devil among the wheat during the early history of the church could remain to the end of the world. That could not happen, if those tares represent men. So evidently those tares that remain to the harvest at the end of the world do not represent men, but flawed interpretations of the prophecies of scripture, and false doctrines and theories. Many of these were prevalent in the early centuries of the Christian era. They persist from one generation to another, and are still prevalent today. If so, the false teachings are to be "gathered into bundles and burned."

Jesus said "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity" will be gathered out of his kingdom. [Mat. 13:41] Perhaps "them which do iniquity" are seducing spirits. It is angels who gather them up, and in the prophecy of Rev. 12, there is a war between the angels of Michael, and the angels of the dragon. This pictures spiritual warfare. The dragon and his angels are cast out of heaven, which is a reason for rejoicing by the saints. So it is a parallel to the parable of the tares.

Rev. 12:11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Although the war is between angels, it is the saints who overcome the delusions of Satan, and discover the truth.

Doug

So Christ's teachings are "talents" and the doctrines of satan or "tares"? What is the "wheat"?

And what does it mean to you that the tares are harvested first, to be burned, while the wheat it gathered to the barn? Christ is talking about gathering "doctrines" (or teachings)?

Zeek

but the wrath that reserved for the ungodly, who held the Truth in unrighteousness (via law).

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Christ died for the ungodly; he justifies the ungodly. Right? Who is "not" ungodly/unrighteous? Aren't we all?

So then didn't Paul (or rather Saul) hold the truth in unrighteousness?

i don't believe so.

i don't believe david did either,

i don't believe Noah did either.

but I hear what u are saying, re: we are all at one time ungodly, but I don't believe it is the second death that moved these from sin/death to life; but rather the grace of God. Some refuse the grace of God, and hold the truth in unrighteousness; reserving for themselves the wide road (shame/second death)

While one person may be manifesting their nature as "a tare" (unbelieving, walking in darkness and disobedience, etc) and the other as "wheat" (believing and walking in the light of gospel and in the faith of Jesus Christ) that same person who is now being manifest as a "son of God" (wheat) was once walking in darkness/disobedience, having plenty of "hay, wood, and stubble" that needed to be burned up in order for the "wheat" to shine forth in the kingdom of God.

As I see it, it is not "one or the other" but "both growing together until the harvest"... until such a time as the tares can be "separated" from the wheat. And it is only after the separation takes place that wheat can shine forth....

Jesus said, in the parable of the talents, "I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed." This parable is included in the Olivet Discourse, so Jesus probably meant us to interpret his prophecy, and his teachings, as "talents" committed to our trust. The parable of the talents was meant to encourage us to interpret and apply his teachings, and bring forth fruit for the kingdom of God.

There may well be more than one interpretation that can be applied to the parable of the tares. Wheat is interpreted in the previous parable, the parable of the sower, as the word of God; the parallel with the tares suggests the latter are false teachings. Consider whether or not tares sown by the devil among the wheat during the early history of the church could remain to the end of the world. That could not happen, if those tares represent men. So evidently those tares that remain to the harvest at the end of the world do not represent men, but flawed interpretations of the prophecies of scripture, and false doctrines and theories. Many of these were prevalent in the early centuries of the Christian era. They persist from one generation to another, and are still prevalent today. If so, the false teachings are to be "gathered into bundles and burned."

Jesus said "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity" will be gathered out of his kingdom. [Mat. 13:41] Perhaps "them which do iniquity" are seducing spirits. It is angels who gather them up, and in the prophecy of Rev. 12, there is a war between the angels of Michael, and the angels of the dragon. This pictures spiritual warfare. The dragon and his angels are cast out of heaven, which is a reason for rejoicing by the saints. So it is a parallel to the parable of the tares.

Rev. 12:11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Although the war is between angels, it is the saints who overcome the delusions of Satan, and discover the truth.

Doug

So Christ's teachings are "talents" and the doctrines of satan or "tares"? What is the "wheat"?

The wheat represents the "word of the kingdom" in the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:18-2318 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

But Paul makes it clear that adoption will include, as the complete and final act, the redemption of our bodies

It is the resurrected Christ he is preaching, after all--a man who died and was risen from the dead in a vivified body.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

--Acts 17

Yes, but what does "the redemption of our bodies" mean? Why must it mean that our long since gone and rotted natural bodies are going to one day, somehow, be 'reconstituted' (if you will) and start popping out the physical graves that hold them?

Perhaps Paul was referring to the redemption of our glorified bodies which are reserved in heaven, as Peter said.

1 Peter 1:3-4Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

It has not happened yet, as Paul said it is future (shall be..)

Romans 8:18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Peter said the nature of our salvation is to be revealed "at the last time."

1 Peter 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter also said it is future (shall be..)

1 Peter 5:1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

The tares of Christ's parable are not those who Paul referred to as "the dead in Christ."

...

1 Thessalonians 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That verse is not talking about Christians who have died in the past. Paul is talking about those "who remain"… whether they be "alive" or "dead" (after a spiritual truth) and it is "the dead" who are raised first.

To say otherwise is to contradict the very words of Christ who said that in the time of harvest it would be "the tares" that are harvested first:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together firstthe tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Those who have already died (after a carnal truth) are already with the Lord!

Jesus said "the tares are the children of the wicked one." [Mat. 13:38] Does the devil have children?

Jesus said the devil is the "father" of lies. This would imply his "children" are lies.

John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

When Ananias tried to deceive the church, Peter said it was of Satan. Sin was "conceived" in his heart.

Acts 5:3-4But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

James spoke of lust "conceiving" sin.

James 1:14-15But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So "the children of the wicked" in the parable of the tares is a metaphor, and refers to lies.

"Many do not know of what spirit you are of..calling down fire of condemnation and wrath of God on those bound by a spirit of disbeleif was not and is not Christ's agenda. Rather, it is to bundle and remove for burning the very spirits of unbeleif [tares] that bind any of us. or to set us free into the Glorious freedom of the sons of God."

The quote identifies the tares with "spirits of unbelief."

False teachings can endure for many generations. Men cannot. So the "tares" that are bundled and burned are not humans. IMO.

John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Interesting post, Doug.

Jesus calls the devil 'your father' twice in the same sentence when speaking to the Pharisees. So is he speaking metaphorically when he calls them, essentially, sons of satan? You showed how the word 'conceived' is also used above, --why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart--again, a metaphor of conceiving a child?

If these are metaphors, they are extremely strong ones. I can't imagine the Pharisees being at all pleased no matter what literary constructs they thought Jesus was using.

But, one thing seems for sure--he was calling them liars. That means, they were not just misguided, not just blind, they were deliberately lying to the people for their own benefit.