Dear Chris
Yep - these responses sound good.
A few comments:
Tabs for extra views - I think the "bookmarks" already provide this.
Unclicking tabs - people are used to unclicking a button or a
radio-button selection. Could the tab stand out like a button? But a
simple [-] or "off" would work too
Inline scrollbars - I don't see what's wrong with these. They have
gone out of fashion on web pages but merely because Google doesn't
like frames.
- I much prefer an inline scrollbar to a long webpage, cos you
can't see everything at once. Eg, you might be looking at the bottom
of a chapter, while trying to read the top of a lexicon definition,
or a popout with a list of names, or the first verses of a different chapter.
Hover display - overlaying the search box and title sounds OK. I
agree the middle area is narrow.
David IB
At 13:13 27/04/2010, Chris Burrell wrote:
>And few extra comments
>>+ To increase space allocated to seeing the passage, it would be
>good to be able to expand downwards
>+ Mobile devices would probably default to one pane with a smaller
>set of icons on the side
>+ A pin on the sidebar would allow you to collapse the sidebar
>further (using smaller icons as David Haslam was mentioning)
>+ Someone mentioned workspaces/virtual desktops. My flatmate
>mentioned it as well. It would be good to find an intuitive way of
>saving the view, or creating a new view. So that users who want to
>see more than two panes can start flicking between their views...
>Maybe tabs on the top of each pane? or at the very top, a banner
>with a tab ( a bit like Google Chrome has)
>>Chris
>>>On 27 April 2010 13:06, Chris Burrell
><<mailto:chris at burrell.me.uk>chris at burrell.me.uk> wrote:
>My comments below, prefixed with >>> (and in bold if that comes through)
>>On 26 April 2010 13:00, David Instone-Brewer
><<mailto:Technical at tyndale.cam.ac.uk>Technical at tyndale.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>Chris, these are great!
>>(David, I've copied you in for your creative 'eye' - links to
>screenshots are
><http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnQsGWsoI/AAAAAAAAADs/t2ijJOFqFPc/s1600/tyndale+step-750569.PNG>here,
><http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnQEI12uI/AAAAAAAAADk/Qxp-v2p_QEM/s1600/tyndale+step+with+popup-747928.PNG>here,
><http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnaPNzSBI/AAAAAAAAAD8/npX67PYsUqc/s1600/tyndale_step_description-788925.PNG>here,
><http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnaI4ERiI/AAAAAAAAAD0/XL_u75zTlkE/s1600/tyndale_step_with_popup_description-788049.PNG>here,
><http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SpdQ5XfBI/AAAAAAAAAEM/3Rw7bs3AQ6k/s1600/tyndale+step+no+bookmarks-713151.PNG>here,
>&
><http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9Spc_NlF3I/AAAAAAAAAEE/EF3stgSdQ18/s1600/step1_green-711941.PNG>here).
>>>>* I love the tags along the top of the text panes, which don't take
>up much room and dropdown to list the versions
>>* I love the footprint logo at the bottom middle.
>>* The Tools menu at top right is a great idea.
>>* The big friendly buttons down the left are nice. They look a bit
>mysterious to start with, but are quickly learned.
>>> >>> I think we can easily add some "alternative text" to let the
> user know what the button is in a non obstructive way
>>>>* The popout of People etc, overlaying most of the text panes works well.
>>* The people list - starting with a list at Aaron, Abaddon etc, with
>"more" looks good as a quick way to pick the person you want
>>* The idea of starting typing and filtering the results is very intuitive.
>>* I like the idea of intelligence for searching, with the option of
>telling it what to search for. So if someone looks up Aaron, they
>can decide if they want the People database or a concordance search.
>>* the Bookmarks in the middle look perfect - intuitive, and don't
>take up much room.
>>* Using the space between the panes for "Timeline", "People" etc is
>a great idea. The "Bookmarks" could be simply one of them. - ie
>click on one, and it turns into a list of the People, Maps,
>Bookmarks etc which are available.
>>* I like the idea of Green as a colour scheme - it fits nicely with
>the logo and looks friendly.
>>* I agree we need a config page but it can be separate
>>* I agree we can use Browser back buttons
>>* I too have misgivings about menus at the top. Personally I like
>them, esp for providing keyboard shortcuts, but they make
>applications look dated. If we have it, perhaps it could be an option.
>>Some minor suggestions (most of them are further ideas which you may
>already have in mind)
>>* The bridge would look more intuitive if it touched both sides and
>looked like one of those bridges which lift up to let boats under
>(ie the connection between the two sides is broken)
>> >>> Yes, I couldn't find a proper bridge like that. I think that a
> chain might be better (link / unlink). One of the problems is that
> the picture needs to be so big since the two panes are relatively
> speaking quite far from each other...
>>* We need some indication of what version we are looking at. - ie
>when you click on the dropdown for "English" versions and pick ESV,
>then pick KJV on the other pane, we need to see somewhere that that
>these are what we have selected.
>> >>> Yep, so perhaps something like Matthew 8:2-13 [ESV] in the title?
>>* I'd prefer tabs on the bottom boxes instead of an options button.
>This would indicates that all those tabs remain 'live' and
>available, and unclicking the one which is clicked could minimise the box.
>> >>> I'm not sure unclicking a tab is very intuitive? or are you
> thinking of having a tab called "No info"
>>>>* perhaps we could indicate "manual" or "personal" bookmarks (ie
>ones which the user especially wants to remember) by highlighting
>them or making them a different colour. Or perhaps "personal
>bookmarks" could be a separate list.
>> >>> Yes, agreed. So part of the idea on one of the buttons (in a
> later screenshot) was to have a bookmarks option so that people
> could get to them very quickly when they come back.
>>>* It would be nice to have to option of opening a box at the bottom
>of both text panes, even if they are linked, so someone could see
>(say) both crossRefs and personal notes at the same time.
>> >>> Yup. Good idea.
>>* I think we could reduce the size of the search options by simply
>having a dropdown from the binoculars. Most of the time, there won't
>be any need to specify the kind of search, because a Reference, or
>Strongs# is unambiguous, and we can set the default to a concordance
>search for most other things. If they have the sidebar open at
>People or Places we can change the default to that. So most of the
>time people won't have to choose the search database.
> >>> Yes, although I don't understand the comment about when the
> side bar is open. The idea is to make the side bar a temporary
> helper to the application, which "disables" most of the application
> behind while open.
>>>* Do we need a search box inside the side popouts? The main
>searchbox could be used. Perhaps the sidebar and popout could start
>higher up, so that the main searchbox could be incorporated into the popout.
>> >>> I think we do. I think it would confuse people if we only have
> 1: one of the search boxes is to carry out a one-off search, the
> other one in the popout is to filter search results according to
> what module is selected on the toolbar.
>>>* Could we use the bookmark space for our hover-over information?
>I'd really like to avoid the usual problem of overlaying the very
>text you are trying to read.
>> >>> Good idea (although it's kind of narrow...). I was going to
> suggest using the notes field at the bottom, but that wouldn't work
> because of my comments down below. Another option is to use a
> overlay on the top header part (covering the search boxes)
>>>* One of the trickiest things is typing a reference. Could we give
>the user some help? Perhaps, when they start typing in the search
>box, we could have an initial dropdown of Bible books (ie type "G"
>and get "Genesis 1... / Galatians 1..." at the top, then a
>horizontal line and other options such as "Gad / Gadara /
>Gideon... etc). This will esp help those who don't know the Bible
>books well, or who type "Jud" for Judges and end up in Jude.
>> >>> All very feasible
>>* Could we add some kind of chapter selection? Perhaps, when
>"Genesis 1..." is selected the dropdown could change to "Genesis 1 /
>Genesis 2 / Genesis 3 / Genesis 3 / ..."
>> >>> I think you mean "Genesis " would come up with Genesis 1,
> Genesis 2, etc. Genesis 1 would come up with Genesis 11, Genesis
> 12, etc. I think also the Bible function on the left (maybe we only
> need one) could server that purpose, as a drill down. So your side
> popup would appear, you'd click Genesis, then get a list of all the
> chapters, then click a chapter...
>>* AND / OR we could put a Bible icon by the side of the Search box
>with a drill-down Bible book & chapter selection.
>>* When we implement Browser functions (like extending the page
>downward, or using child windows, we have to remember that not all
>Browsers are equal, esp on a phone or an iPad. We can't rely on
>extra space and extra windows being available.
>>Agreed, a comment from my flat mate however was that if we're
>squeezing the Bible into these two panes, and they are not linked
>(ie. different versions/passage/content) we may need to expand them
>downwards like a proper webpage for fear of not displaying enough of
>the passage. I'd rather avoid inline scroll bars...
>>>* I like the big popout area from side bar, but perhaps it should
>cover only the left-hand text pane (and it could cover more of it) -
>so that the user can arrange to have the passage they are looking up
>to still be visible on the right-hand pane. Eg someone may be
>looking up "Jehoshaphat" and they'd want to see the name while
>searching for it.
> - this would also help with smaller devices, on which we can
> display either one text pane or the other, but not a wide area spanning both.
>> >>> Good idea
>>* That makes me think it would be nice to be able to swap the right
>& left text panes. Can the "bridge" icon serve double purpose somehow?
>> >>> Maybe dragging and dropping the pane onto the other side?
>>* What about putting the left-hand buttons on the right-hand side?
>I'm thinking about how this will be approached. Most users start at
>the left and the big buttons make them think that this is what they
>want to choose first, whereas we want the Bible text to be the
>center and the other things to be spokes or offshoots. So if the big
>buttons are on the right, their eyes will be drawn first to the main
>searchbox, which is where we want them to start. And if there is a
>Bible icon to the left of the search, this should lead them to drill
>down to a Bible chapter. Also, if the popout is on the right, it is
>less likely to cover the very text they have selected.
>> >>> Possibly. I'll try that and post a screenshot.
>>* If the popout is covering the complete right-hand text pane, we
>should make sure that IF the two panes are linked, we temporarily
>unlink them so that a user can scroll up and down through the
>complete text in just the left-hand pane which they can still see,
>while the popout obscures the right-hand side.
>>* The Bible icon in the big buttons should perhaps lead to
>commentaries rather than Bible books - ie keep the theme that these
>buttons are all adjuncts to the text.
>> >>> Yup, I was thinking that as well... Maybe a little Bible icon
> next to the search, which would just populate the auto-suggest
> search box at the top.
>>>>This is really taking shape!
>>David IB
>>>At 21:57 25/04/2010, Chris Burrell wrote:
>>Some mock ups from me are now on the Tyndale Programming blogs:
>><http://tyndalestep-prog.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2010-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2011-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=50>http://tyndalestep-prog.blogspot.com/>>>>Comments are welcome, whether good or bad!!! I think whatever
>>happens, the icons would need to be harmonized (colour an style)
>>and thought through a bit. And obviously the colour scheme would
>>need to be chosen carefully (do we also want to make colour blind
>>people have easy access, etc.?)
>>>>>>The first two screenshots go together:
>><http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnQsGWsoI/AAAAAAAAADs/t2ijJOFqFPc/s1600/tyndale+step-750569.PNG>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnQsGWsoI/AAAAAAAAADs/t2ijJOFqFPc/s1600/tyndale+step-750569.PNG>>>>http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnQEI12uI/AAAAAAAAADk/Qxp-v2p_QEM/s1600/tyndale+step+with+popup-747928.PNG>>>>>>where the second one is when the user has clicked a button on the
>>left hand side.
>>>>And then there's the explanations of some of the layouts if need be:
>><http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnaPNzSBI/AAAAAAAAAD8/npX67PYsUqc/s1600/tyndale_step_description-788925.PNG>http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnaPNzSBI/AAAAAAAAAD8/npX67PYsUqc/s1600/tyndale_step_description-788925.PNG>>>>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SnaI4ERiI/AAAAAAAAAD0/XL_u75zTlkE/s1600/tyndale_step_with_popup_description-788049.PNG>>>>>>Finally, there's a couple of extra screenshots:
>>>>The first showing an alternative of the bit in the middle of the book:
>><http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SpdQ5XfBI/AAAAAAAAAEM/3Rw7bs3AQ6k/s1600/tyndale+step+no+bookmarks-713151.PNG>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9SpdQ5XfBI/AAAAAAAAAEM/3Rw7bs3AQ6k/s1600/tyndale+step+no+bookmarks-713151.PNG>>where it would list the content we have about a particular passage
>>>>and then one that looks particularly green (the green from one of
>>the logos that was on the blogs a few weeks ago:
>><http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9Spc_NlF3I/AAAAAAAAAEE/EF3stgSdQ18/s1600/step1_green-711941.PNG>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4q-hr4DqduU/S9Spc_NlF3I/AAAAAAAAAEE/EF3stgSdQ18/s1600/step1_green-711941.PNG>>)
>>>>A few other remarks:
>>1st: we're going to run this thing in a browser (whether online or
>>offline), so we can make use of the browser buttons (back and
>>forth), most naturally to capture content change, similar to the
>>bookmarks, going back and forth through the passages we've visited.
>>(that is stateless, i.e. if we came back tomorrow that history
>>would be forgotten about).
>>>>2ndly, it's a browser, so we can expand the page downwards (by
>>inserting content at the top), or at the bottom. We can also use
>>internal links to go between one screen and another.
>>>>3rdly: we could include some sort of menus at the top to make it
>>feel more desktop-like. Not sure what I think about that.
>>>>4th: we do need a place of general configuration and user
>>preferences (things like proxy settings, installing more sword
>>modules/bibles, etc.). Generally most of that can be done on a
>>separate page, but we need a way of accessing it, even if it's just
>>one button at the top right, or something like that.
>>>>I think that's it from me for now...
>>>>Please do let me know what you all think!?
>>Chris
>>>>>>>>>>>>At 22:38 22/04/2010, Chris Burrell wrote:
>>>Just thought I'd share a few sites that have cropped up recently
>>>from various people in the listings and outside. If we could pull
>>>ideas off those interfaces, I think we could end up with something really good.
>>>1-
>>><http://my.offlinebible.com/index.php>http://my.offlinebible.com/index.php>>>2- http://code.google.com/p/xulsword/>>>3- <http://www.bibleglo.com/>http://www.bibleglo.com/>>>Chris
>>I like lots of things in XulSword.
>>What I liked about OffLineBible:
>>* Bookmarks - click on it, and it displays the ref it is marking.
>>* different formats (no Strongs; inline Strongs, interlinear
>>Strongs, columns
>>* the line along the top where you can pick a chapter (a bit fiddly
>>to use, but an interesting idea)
>>BibleGlo
>>* all the bling. OK, it isn't necessary, but it looks cool - well,
>>impressive.
>>* the add campaign (now that advertising can be free, who says it
>>doesn't pay?)
>>OK, Here are some positive ideas:
>>I like the idea of two panes of text, as in the prototype, and in XulSword,
>>with a wide tab area for navigation on the left as in XulSword,
>>* the XulSword tabs are in two columns with a narrow left-hand
>>column of OT/NT,
>> and a wider right-hand column which lists of books for OT or NT
>> but I think we can develop that further:
>> Instead of having just OT and NT in the narrow left-most tab,
>> we can have other things,
>> which bring up more things in the wider right-hand tab:
>> - OldT - listing OT books
>> - NewT - listing NT books
>> - Geog - listing placenames
>> - Hist - listing periods
>> - Lit - listing significant extra-biblical books
>> - Lang - listing languages
>> - Who - listing people
>> - Find - a search box listing results
>>With some of these, we will have to display a cut-down list, perhaps with
>>[+] at the side to open up the item into more detail, eg for people:
>>[+] Aaron
>>[+] Baalam
>>[+] Caanan
>>- giving just 26 entries displayed.
>>For Languages I'd suggest an interface like 2LetterLookup.com
>>The equal sized panes of text could be like in XulSword, ie:
>>* each pane can show a different chapter of the Bible
>> or the same chap in a different version, or they can be
>> linked to show more of the chapter, flowing from one to the other.
>>* a raisable bridge icon (like London Tower Bridge?) can join or
>>separate them
>>* both panes have an identical set of tabs across the top
>>* these tabs need to be in two layers, classifying them into
>> - English (ie PD versions)
>> - European, (ie other language groups)
>> - African
>> - Eastern (etc as needed)
>> - Online (ie IFrames to NIV and other commercial version websites)
>> - Ancient (ie Greek, Hebrew, ancient versions)
>>* at the bottom of each pane, there's a box which minimises when not in use
>>* below this box is another set of tabs determining what these boxes show
>> (and when the box is minimised, they remain as a set of buttons)
>>* These tabs include:
>> - footnotes (ie all the footnotes of verses in that chapter)
>> - cross-refs (ie all the crossrefs of verses in that chapter)
>> - personal notes (for that chap)
>> - names (ie all the people and places named, with links to
>> dictionaries)
>> - timeline (ie a minimised view of the time represented by that chapter)
>> - vocab (ie all Greek, Hebrew and English words which occur in
>> the chapter)
>>* between the two text panes put a column of bookmarks,
>> with an arrow in both directions, so you can open in either pane
>>* at the top are "manual" bookmarks and at the bottom are
>>"automatic" bookmarks
>> - add a manual bookmark by clicking on an arrow at the top middle
>> of each text
>> - an automatic bookmark is added everyone a pane moves away from a chapter
>> by any means other than scrolling
>>* the two sets of bookmarks accumulate vertically in order of setting them
>> and when they run out of room, there is a scroll function to see
>> older ones
>>* a "back" button at the top of each text pane keeps a history of
>>what was displayed on that pane
>>* when you hover over a tagged word, definitions etc appear as a hover
>>* this hover does NOT appear next to the cursor, but always in the
>>Tab area on the left,
>> because this area is not being used once a person has gone
>> where they want to go,
>> whereas an overlay by the cursor obscures the exact text being studied
>>* hover works within the text panes, and also in the boxes
>> - hovering over a cross-ref shows the verse,
>> - hovering over a Greek word in the text pane or a box shows a
>> lexicon entry
>> - hovering over a place name in text or pane or a box shows
>> dictionary entry
>> etc
>>* when you click on a ref (rather than hovering over it), the
>>left-hand text pane
>> goes to that chapter and highlights the verse clicked on
>>* when you click on a word or place or date (rather than hovering over it),
>> the right-hand text pane shows a full lexicon or map or timeline.
>>* A Search box is permanently visible at top left, above the Tabs
>> and results appear in the wider right-hand Tabs area
>> - this searches for English, Greek, Hebrew, numbers (for
>> Strongs) and Refs
>> working out for itself what it is searching for.
>>>>We have LOTS of data to display, but we want to try and accommodate
>>small screens - big problem!
>>Let's assume that phone screens will get bigger.
>>My Toshiba G910 has 800x600 pixels in eye-watering 2.5"x1.7" size,
>>which is great for those under 40,
>>but as soon as your lenses harden, you need +3 glasses to see the details.
>>I think phones will go in the way of high-density screens, though
>>laptops may not follow.
>>But I don't think we should assume that we will have this much space.
>>Although we can display a lot, people can't see so much detail.
>>On small screens, we can treat the three areas (tabs on the left,
>>and two text panes)
>>as separate screens which you drag into view as on an iPhone.
>>With small screens, the hover area will have to be near the cursor,
>>as in most systems.
>>Can someone with artistic skills make a visual of all this?
>>David IB
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>sword-devel mailing list:
>><mailto:sword-devel at crosswire.org>sword-devel at crosswire.org>>http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel>>Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>>-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.crosswire.org/pipermail/sword-devel/attachments/20100427/2a504142/attachment-0001.html>