Stepping away of your outstanding Durumu numbers i don't see that trend on other bosses, especially with adds/multiple targets and on a "normal" 90% percentile level. Don't forget that while we gain 20-40% more crit chance from Riposte while actively tanking paladins will also gain 15-20% more haste next tier, allowing them to alter their rotation to deal even more damage (1-1 instead of 1-1-0 should be accessible, shouldn't it?). And that picture get's even worse in 10M when we're forced to sometimes use SBar to assist our healers because melee damage isn't that lethal here.

On bosses with adds / multiple targets is where I think I tend to do better lol, with the exception of Tortos due to not using some cheesy kite tactic for infinite deep wounds damage and Horridon this week due to letting our DK tank solo tank the fight = P
I think you are underestimating how much crit affects our damage and will be even more so than live with the ultimatum changes as well
Most of those logs are done with 20% crit, going up to something like 40% crit and with the trinkets you will be seeing catastrophic levels of DPS from Prot Warriors

I'm not quite sure if you could reach a 1-1 rotation as pally next tier, it might be doable under lust but I still think the filler will be required... even so I think you will see the DPS between the two classes as fairly equal, especially with the change to Alabaster Shield / Various others

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Originally Posted by santa666

The glyph has to be redesigned somehow, its stupid being punished for using the right mitigation.

I'd like it lowered to 10-20%, working on both sbar/block and buff shield slam AND revenge to compensate. :P
Or just remove it, free up the glyph slot like espada said.

I would agree with this but it would be dumbing down the class in a certain way that I quite enjoy playing and that's maximising your Shield Block uptime for fights
I do however agree that there needs to be some sort of compensation for Shield Barrier, possibly something along the lines of 0.75 second per 10 rage spent to make sure that its on the same sort of level as Shield Block in terms of Rage / Uptime

So you intend to make it like a permanent buff while you are offtanking?

You don't keep it up when you off tank? Since HS hits like a wet noodle when I offtank I just make sure I toss up s.block for hard hitting SS and I fish for sword and board procs while it's up!

What else are you going to do with the rage you pool during off tanking!

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Originally Posted by Gliff

I agree with Eddy that I would prefer to keep the glyph in the game to avoid a dumbed down rotation. Even though it isnt rocket science, it could be easier.

It just sucks that we need to choose between block+ dmg or absorb (normally non blockable hits) and ...nothing else! I agree on the rotation part but having a glyph that boosts our dmg while using block and then nothing for S.bar has bugged me all expac >.<

You don't keep it up when you off tank? Since HS hits like a wet noodle when I offtank I just make sure I toss up s.block for hard hitting SS and I fish for sword and board procs while it's up!

What else are you going to do with the rage you pool during off tanking!

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It just sucks that we need to choose between block+ dmg or absorb (normally non blockable hits) and ...nothing else! I agree on the rotation part but having a glyph that boosts our dmg while using block and then nothing for S.bar has bugged me all expac >.<

If you offtank you lack the critical blocks and the revenge proccs, hence, you cannot maintain SBlock all the time. 20 rage for a SBarrier to keep up the 50% buff is by far easier to aquire then 60 rage for a SBlock.

Originally Posted by magnuzze

considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.

Originally Posted by Darkfriend

There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.

Originally Posted by Wrien

I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

If you offtank you lack the critical blocks and the revenge proccs, hence, you cannot maintain SBlock all the time. 20 rage for a SBarrier to keep up the 50% buff is by far easier to aquire then 60 rage for a SBlock.

Offtanking you can still keep a respectable uptime on Shield Block but obviously not as good / easily as you would MT'ing

This is exactly why it would need to be something a long the lines of 0.75 seconds per 10 rage to avoid having it up totally full time

No, i don't see that. As you already mentioned you're currently running in a 20% crit setup, trying to get the most out of your farm runs while having a good time and aiming for some higher rankings (we do something similar for sure ) - but that's no baseline to compare x to y or warrior to paladin in a regular environment. Most paladins you conquer with don't even bother using SoT/SoR right now, they could easily add another 5-10% damage if they really wanted to.

Now remove those 12k crit rating and add avoidance or mastery instead, exchange your strength trinkets for defensive ones and all of the sudden you won't add another 20-50% more damage from your current best rankings for the time farming (unless they really leave Riposte in it's current state which i honestly doubt somewhat). Yes, we might be possible to achieve some really crazy numbers in the end with 60% crit, two dps trinkets while outgearing most content by 30 ilvl. But what matters is progression as you - as an motivated & dedicated raider for several years - already know

I don't think it's that easy to solve, if you want to keep it interesting. So... we do agree that for going heavy into avoidance, you need HR tied to Sbar somehow. Otherwise, the whole effort to fix the spec DPS goes down the toilet, as no HR no party, no mastery&lots of avoidance, no Sblock spam.

The problem is that when HR is tied to Sblock only, it rarely calls for bad play to max it. With Sblock, you need to wait anyhow, so you wait to max slams. Now, with Sbar, if you get the buff for some seconds after using it, the rotation does call for bad and insconcious gameplay. Basically, putting always a Sbar up anytime you are going to slam, regardless of what is happening. Do you have 400k external absorbs already? Doesn't matter, Sbar. You have 200k and 3 secs left for your previous Sbar? Doesn't matter, spend 20 rage on an absorb that doesn't go anywhere. If the avoidance gearing ends up being a solid one, I had rather have to control how much absorb do I have left that be tied by HR to simply spam Sbar with the rage of the previous slam/revenges.

So... I don't really see a way to keep the glyph and keep the rotation interesting. Simply going with slam buffed as long as Sbar is up doesn't cut it either in regards to absorb management.

Ah well one last comment on the glyph from my side: i don't think this glyph does us any good... at all. We're already rewarded for keeping our active mitigation up from taking less damage, this should be more than enough. There is no question between using heroic strike and shield block+shield slam this tier due to how bad HS is, we want to push it anyways. No reason to tie a damage increasing part to that, especially when it's only on one of our AM choices.

Generally speaking at using SoT is going to be a DPS loss due to the haste you get from Insight

Thing is though going into a full avoidance gearing for progress will still yield pretty sick amounts of crit, sure you will be able to push some crazy numbers when you overgear it but I think on progress the DPS between the two classes will be fairly similar at least from what I've seen from PTR anyway and that was with only the 50% riposte

Generally speaking at using SoT is going to be a DPS loss due to the haste you get from Insight

Thing is though going into a full avoidance gearing for progress will still yield pretty sick amounts of crit, sure you will be able to push some crazy numbers when you overgear it but I think on progress the DPS between the two classes will be fairly similar at least from what I've seen from PTR anyway and that was with only the 50% riposte

I havnt been raid testing on PTR so i havnt gotten a chance to test out some itemization. What have you found to be the best so far? How much health are you aiming for?

If you offtank you lack the critical blocks and the revenge proccs, hence, you cannot maintain SBlock all the time. 20 rage for a SBarrier to keep up the 50% buff is by far easier to aquire then 60 rage for a SBlock.

Sbarrier does not give you the 50% buff to SS damage... I really hope you have not been using 20 rage barriers to try and keep up heavy repercusions! The glyph only works with shield block re-read it!

I havnt been raid testing on PTR so i havnt gotten a chance to test out some itemization. What have you found to be the best so far? How much health are you aiming for?

For 10 man testing current 25 man level health seemed more than fine, and should be just around the sweet spot for entering the next tier. I would have probably said, go for avoidance gear with stam gems for the best combination going into the next tier