I feel that its a matter of gearing. If your inclined to knee trouble then use a lower gear.

Spot on, don't think you need me.

Trained regularly on fixed, always around 75, as stated, and never had one day of knee trouble in my career.Must be saying something about "old-school" now. From what you say about big gears, and long cranks,I bet they have heaps of self-inflicted injuries. What can I say..?You've just about answered your own question, eh!

And thanks for the word "Cadence" never heard of it, remember I'm B.C. (Before Cyclo-computers)Great word, and I think I'm going to use it in as many sentences, as I can. Joke.Think that's what I mean about sluggers and p'rs. You want to be the last, if your suited to it.It would seem Lance was (a P'er), from what I now read...

Lance Armstrong is known for his technique of keeping up high cadences of around 110 rpm for hours on end to improve efficiency

MikesbytesYeah, sorry, just jumped into the time-capsule and went backand checked, 46x20 so that's 62, was thinking something else.That's the general gear. For sure, I physically checked it.And the mid to lower 70's for some specialised sprint training.Old braincells, playing up.Cheers,BrentonO

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

brentono wrote:MikesbytesYeah, sorry, just jumped into the time-capsule and went backand checked, 46x20 so that's 62, was thinking something else.That's the general gear. For sure, I physically checked it.And the mid to lower 70's for some specialised sprint training.Old braincells, playing up.Cheers,BrentonO

There ya go, your old school. Did you use to race against Lionel Coxx?

The 77 I ride is one of the highest gears around, I can count on one hand the riders I know who use a gear higher than that. Allows me to keep up with the geared riders unit about 50kph, though I can do 60kph for sort stints.

Mate, now I think your taking the pissssssssss.....?I wasn't even born when LC was at his peak?Woah! You gotta be a machine, I was a Pedal'r- one of thebest in my time, sprinted past pace bikes for training,and down mountains on fixed gears, and I don't thinkI could do 60K on 77, my minds fuzzy, but that seemslike an ask, your the man....Cheers,BrentonO

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

Mate, now I think your taking the pissssssssss.....?I wasn't even born when LC was at his peak?Woah! You gotta be a machine, I was a Pedal'r- one of thebest in my time, sprinted past pace bikes for training,and down mountains on fixed gears, and I don't thinkI could do 60K on 77, my minds fuzzy, but that seemslike an ask, your the man....Cheers,BrentonO

and since I was asked to relate some stories, with what we've covered, and some answers here for Mikesbytes, also, here we go...

Lionels 3 up, Sprint final defeat, for silver against Sacchi, and theresult, after finishing half a wheel behind, brings back memories.

My memories, were of approaching the quarter finals of a W.C. and beingin a three up, with two Italians (one their favourite, and we're in Italy)(complained to Bill Long, to protest, but he explained, no point, home-rules)so it's engineered to back me, off the favourite, it's rough and tumble,gave him about 5 lengths at the 200m, and he got it by just half a wheel.(have the photo, that put me out of the competiton) He went on to get the silver. Bitterly disappointed me, but just another experience, a cycling moment (it happens to everyone,in cycling-with officials, judges, referees etc, and there are many). Turrini was his name.

While racing for the Police club in Paris, I was trained by L.G. who was the Coach of the French Olympic team, and the club, which were technically one.I trained with the team, Morelon, Trentin etc... and raced with them.To get around the Olympic rulings, the riders were Gendarmerie, theynever wore a uniform, or walked the beat. Bit like the US, with Olympians inthe military, at that time. In aussie an amateur, could not earn $1, or lose it.(their amateur status, that is, Australia was so far behind the times in those days?)

Same era, in Montreal, Anton Tkac, an unknown, beat the track record in 10.89 secondsand beat Morelon, by an unusual tactic in the final. (Gold medal Sprint Final)Beware the bouncing Czech. (another example of times)Many great memories, and many more. No regrets.Thanks BrentonO

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

Alex,Think your tugging my wire, as I'm here to help young riders.And I'm sure you know much more than me... you have all today's credentials.But will give it a bash... (the kids may pick something up, eh!)There are many factors to consider, as you would know.As I don't know you, can you pedal, or do you slug.Indoor or outdoor track.How did you feel at the end on each gear, dying on 96? or bouncing on 91.8?what was the overall feel on each.Though I only did a few flying 200's, and that part a bit hazy, will see if I did a time?I would have looked at 92.6=48x14 and Indoor on a perfect track, on a power day-94.5=49x14 ? maybe, 93.6- if I want a rolling gear, 52x15 on that day, for me.Happy medium. (FME= Big CW for rolling along, Small CW for acceleration, and pedalling)Just my thoughts, and it's all "old-school" mumbo-jumbo, more info would help.Cheers,BrentonO

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

Hi Alex,Sorry got you mixed up with the other Alex-here.(was following on from my previous post for Alex/RST the local "new-school" coach)Dislexac old-f*rt I am, your new here, welcome.Message is still the same, and would need more info to really help?Cheers,BrentonO

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

brentono wrote:MikesbytesYeah, sorry, just jumped into the time-capsule and went backand checked, 46x20 so that's 62, was thinking something else.That's the general gear.

Wow thats low. You would have to pedaling over 100rpm just to cruise along at 30kph. Why so low? Was this gearing used for solo training or when riding in a bunch.

I noticed that you had an identical bike to your track bike for road training did this include track drops as well?

How many hours did you have to put in the saddle, on the track and on the road to be competitive.

What is your opinion with regards to saddle hight when running 165mm cranks? Lower than your preferred road bike length or higher to take in account for the reduced leg extension. I prefer a lower saddle hight because it makes it easier to spin the gears at higher speeds or am I missing something?

Alex/RST, Your the resident coach/expert and I am neither ofthose, and I would not wish to be a coach.My only input here, as I have initially pointed out, is to help,any young riders, if I can, and my disclaimer is FME.I am not famous, and rode a long time ago, with a small amountof success, had many great cycling experiences, enjoyed it, then gave it away.Gord was after my time, never met him, only connectionI can give, is I watched a rough and tumble, tussle he hadwith Nakano, on TV. I was in the team rooms, when Nakanohad his first Championship ride, and was introduced to him.

Mikesbytes,KeithO, wouldn't know or remember me, being a West Aussie,and our only connection, he may remember a young WA rider,flash past him in a Pro 1000m Aust title Final, right on the line.(around the mid-seventies)He may have thought he lost it, though his state colleagues,the 4 (NSW) judges, said he didn't (he got 1st). Only he and I ... know for sure, (also Bill Long also had a point of view) ... to this close outcome.An amusing after story, now, and a long time ago.He probably wouldn't even recall it. And it doesn't matter, now.That's sport, That's cycling, That's life.Cheers,BrentonO

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

So recapping on the stories, with KeithO, in those days,the photo-finish was rarely used, so it was up to human intervention. Personalities and parochial alliances aside,there are many difficult match winning decisions made in Sport. As an addition to that story, a few years earlier,in Tassie, a similar situation occurred, possibly due to thegreat exposure of the carnivals, they had the camera, andI got the decision (and the Aus title) by a quarter of a wheel.(Still have the photo- get it, a Polaroid... from the photo-finish?)

A P'r will accelarate around a group in a scratch or handicaprace, in the dying stages of that race (conserving energy) andwhen the sluggers, are dying in front, the P'rs time comes.

Back in my day, that made for close finishes, and hard decisions.So the lesson to learn for young riders beginning their cycling,is to not get too hung up on cycling being result based.Focus on the journey, not the destination.Enjoy your competition, the people you meet, and have fun.Hope this helps a few of the newbies.Cheers,BrentonO

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

When Shayne Bannan was coaching me on track we did a number of interesting things. Cadence was a huge part of it. Being a peddler was vital to endurance as it allows the heart and lungs to do a lot of the work instead of smashing the muscles. Heart rate monitors were very valuable along with slow training rides of 30kmh at 100rpm minimum cadence to get used to peddling. Cadence and cardio are a significant part of Lance Armstrongs success as well.

On the rollers or on the track in warmup I would run up through to 150rpm and I recall SB talking to one of the old guys at the club about my smooth pedal stroke which you can easily hear on rollers if it isn't smooth. He hadn't planned on coaching in Darwin where i was posted in the Army but seeing my style and learning i was self taught he was keen to help me develop. My road miles dropped massively but my performance had a huge increase, especially on the road where my sprint finishes went to a whole new level. I had to make a choice then to go full time in Europe and quit the Army or be sponsored through a mechanical engineering degree, and since I was 26 I had to do the sensible thing and do engineering. I still raced in Canberra with Matty Hayman and Mick Rodgers, worked and rode with with Neil Stephens brother Mark and rode with and got to know many great cyclists but had to do less cycling to pass the degree. Nerve damage in my back has had me off the bike for 6 years but I'm back on the MTB again as I start to improve my flexibility and manage the pain.

I love track almost as much as road as there are so many race types. Miss and out, points races, scratch, sprint/flying 200, time trials, madison. I'll have to pull the old Berma out of storage but I recall the cranks were very short, IIRC about 148mm but I could be wrong. I'm looking forward to following this discussion and being part of it when I can.

Results were something interesting too. I did many as many races as possible but just to achieve certain goals, but often not the win which confused many mates and rivals. The big events were the important ones and I used a combo of bio-rythms and a 3 day/3 week/3 month lead up to big events which worked exceptionally well.

Just get on a track bike and the velodrome and start peddling, then do some races. So easy to get hooked.

Hi Geoff,Thanks for you input, you are welcome, and some great info.Well it sounds like you've "been there" and you know the stuff. And it wouldseem you have even had the opportunity to be involved with the new "scientific"methods, which I have no idea of... it was "good old, no pain, no gain" in my day.Can hear what your saying on this...

My road miles dropped massively but my performance had a huge increase, especially on the road where my sprint finishes went to a whole new level.

I found, that you could tend to overtrain, and you had to be aware, or go stale.As you say, and I agree, but in the reverse, I loved the track, and tolerated the road.On the cranks..?

but I recall the cranks were very short, IIRC about 148mm but I could be wrong

Seems, short, not sure the measure base, I used 165mm, which were the shortest (I knew of)... Maybe the "new scientific" went even more the other way..?This was what I was explaining earlier, about the use of short cranks for acceleration, agility and "cadence" and their use in track racing.Great point about "results" and we agree, The message is there, as you stated

So easy to get hooked.

Hope you get over your injury (we all got 'em) and get back to enjoying the sport,well at least get back to joining in, I've just returned to it, also.Cheers,Brenton.

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

I had to make a choice then to go full time in Europe and quit the Army or be sponsored through a mechanical engineering degree, and since I was 26 I had to do the sensible thing and do engineering.

Geoff,Had a similar situation, was in Europe, had time off (working) from Aussie Govt (Dept of Science), to compete in Europe and the Worlds, and time off my Science studies, after the Comps, was offered a three year contract (Italian Sponsors connected to my Club-Police at Notre Dame in Paris) and stay in Italy (Varesse) and ride for G.S. Ignis, did the sensible thing? Studies.Such is Life.CheersBrenton

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

Hi Brentono, Have been reading all of this thread with some interest.Having raced back in the early 70s-84,I have found that the gear now used is a lot smoother than back then,and can now understand why the times being ridden today are faster in the 1000mtr time trial,through to the pursuit.The 700cc wheels compared to the old 27x1high pressure or as they call them now clinchers are poles apart. My first custom bike was also a Bates,then I got a Hoffy made for the track and still have it,and a Rapello for the road,which I slotted in a set of 700cc wheels,that I think are the same, as what it was like to ride on a set of singles with clement 3s on.This is were I see the difference in old and new school,as far as equipment goes,not to mention the carbon fibre frames,of which I just purchased for the road,and can't believe how much of the road shock is absorbed by the frame. I agree whole heartedly with what you say, with regards to training and peddling the small gears.Was taught that you need to be able to pedal a gear before you can push it.Maybe the basic of training have not changed that much,it has just become more scientific to extract the most for slightly less effort. Look forward to reading more of your thoughts on training for the younger ones. Regards Gary(Sorry if you think I hijacked the thread)

I don't suffer fools easily and so long as you have done your best,you should have no regrets.Goal 6000km

Don't think so, all thoughts are welcome.Glad you enjoyed the read.Don't see such a great variation in gear and times (from a track point of view)... and now, with much better tracks. Personally Clement singles 00's around a 166m board track gave you a good feel of a bike.(00 with latex that would make Durex blush, to see how thin they could get it.)Don't know so much about carbon, and might have my doubts, you would haveseen all the pitfalls, as I did, when they first tried Alloy frames, though I ride one now,and they certainly have improved them.Back before, had 2x identical bikes, a road and a track, both hand built by De Pierre in Paris.Track gear went through a lot of phases, and much of it never caught on, from my view.Still we all learn new things, even here (BNA), and new methods may work (to some extent) BUT,nothing will ever take the place of good solid, regular, hard training, as we did back in the day, eh!You only get out of cycling, the effort you put into it, there are no short cuts (scientific or wot)Welcome, and it's good to hear your views.Cheers,Brenton.

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

brentono wrote:So recapping on the stories, with KeithO, in those days,the photo-finish was rarely used, so it was up to human intervention. Personalities and parochial alliances aside,there are many difficult match winning decisions made in Sport. As an addition to that story, a few years earlier,in Tassie, a similar situation occurred, possibly due to thegreat exposure of the carnivals, they had the camera, andI got the decision (and the Aus title) by a quarter of a wheel.(Still have the photo- get it, a Polaroid... from the photo-finish?)

A P'r will accelarate around a group in a scratch or handicaprace, in the dying stages of that race (conserving energy) andwhen the sluggers, are dying in front, the P'rs time comes.

Back in my day, that made for close finishes, and hard decisions.So the lesson to learn for young riders beginning their cycling,is to not get too hung up on cycling being result based.Focus on the journey, not the destination.Enjoy your competition, the people you meet, and have fun.Hope this helps a few of the newbies.Cheers,BrentonO

The original photo-finish (polaroid) from the '70's -Tasmania.... me on the outside, win by 6" (quoted)

Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.

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