Wayne, which camera are you referring to needing optically expanding converters? The Ursa Mini and the new Broadcast Camera B4 mounts are optically corrected.

For the Pocket and Micro Cameras, MTF and Abel Cine both make a nice optically corrected adapter (the BM B4 mounts for the UM and new Broadcast Camera are optically corrected), that also expands the projected image circle (basically a tele converter set at 1.5X), and you only loose about 1/2 stop and can shoot the B4 lens wide open, without CA.

As for Nikon 1 lenses, they are only going to work on Nikon 1 Cameras, like a Sony E Mount lenses, they have a shorter FFD than MFT, so this is a non starter, even if you figure out the auto protocol commands to control the N1 lenses.Cheers

Craig Marshall wrote:I imagine the sensor used in this new camera is from BMD's Micro Studio 4K camera, not the original BM 4K camera which suffered the much reported the FPN issues when used in poorly lit scenarios.

.

A studio is seldom a poorly lit scenario

Craig Marshall wrote:OK but from a Broadcaster's perspective, can we safely assume that if we buy the new BMD camera and fit our legacy HD B4 ENG lenses, our camera operators will experience the same Field of View that they currently enjoy using our aging 3 CCD prism cameras?

A lens made for a 3-chipper will give you CA(ish) hell on a any one-chipper, not just on the Ursa, cause it is corrected (actually kind a miss aligned) for going through a prism. If you now take the prism out of the equation, you get color seams everywhere - nature of the beast.

Denny. I thought I was reading here lens and that required extensive optical convertor sorry.

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them

Isn't the main purpose of the Ursa Broadcast to give users of B4 lenses a UMP like UHD camera with out being limited to a 2Kish windowed(crop)? I mean yes the UMP can do 4.6k, and yes it has a B4 lens adapter, but to my knowledge with the B4 adapter on the UMP is restricted to windowed mode.

Last edited by Bill Young on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Frank Glencairn wrote:A lens made for a 3-chipper will give you CA(ish) hell on a any one-chipper, not just on the Ursa, cause it is corrected (actually kind a miss aligned) for going through a prism. If you now take the prism out of the equation, you get color seams everywhere - nature of the beast.

Not really. In the early days of 3 chip cameras the tubes could be adjusted individually for each color channel. In 1989 they standardized the location of the CCDs in a 3 chip 2/3" array thusly based on best optical performance and to account for the prism.

3CCD optical block.png

There's a fairly common misunderstanding that broadcast lenses inherently "do" something to account for the prism when in reality that is all handled in the camera.

B4 lenses are going to be softer on single chip cameras than 3 chip cameras because of the limits of debayering and resolution. On a 3 chip camera the lens is resolving 1:1, on a Bayer sensor you're getting what 70%. On larger sensors it's not such a big deal but on smaller sensors that require lenses with much higher MTFs it can be quite noticeable.

I guess then, the solution is to buy the best quality ENG lens you can afford such as the later HA series from Fujinon. I see B&H have some B4 mount servo zooms listed for up to $60K and that's not even a 'box' studio lens. To quote Jeremy Clarkson: "I didn't know numbers went that high..."

HA series from Fujinon are the last generation of HD lenses. If you want 4K you need the newer UA lenses. 4K output from this camera is mostly a paper spec, to get true 4K resolution is impossible because of debayering and even 3k resolution is going to cost a fair penny. 4K requires a minimum 200LP/mm, that is a sharp lens.

Another issue Broadcasters might face transitioning away from their beloved 3x CCDs will be entry into the world of rolling shutter, something they've been fortunate enough to avoid to date though, on modern CMOS sensors with fast readout, it seems well controlled.

The switch has already been made. I don't think there are any 4K broadcast cameras using CCD. I think the last iteration of Sony cam was the HDC 2500, the last Grass was the LDK series. It's all been CMOS it has been for more than a few years now. Maybe folks should stop making generalizations about an industry within they have no experience.

I cut my teeth on the Grass Valley 110, serviceman mode on/proc amp off. It's like when we moved to HD over a decade ago when all the prosumer boys were talking about how anchorwomen were going to look like crap in HD as if we hadn't been using skin gates from the beginning. Far too often consumer forum goers make generalizations about camera systems they have little to no experience with.

How often do you hear about how much more sensitive broadcast cameras are or how they are limited in dynamic range when the opposite on both counts is true? I'll test the **** out of a BM camera because if I'm going to vouch for them and put them in a real shooting situation (which I have) with a 100K broadcast chain I'd better be 110% sure that the camera is going to do what I say it can. It's my reputation on the line, not the tools I've chosen. If someone gives me a handful of Grass Valleys or Sonys I'm not worried at all. Moire, rolling shutter, aliasing, they're non-issues. There's a reason these cameras cost more than my house, well my bathroom and half of my bedroom at least.

BM makes a good product, my last 4 personal camera purchases have all been BM but it's important to know what they can and can't do and not overstate the capacity of said tools.

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them

I'd be interested in more information about how to use this camera with an EF lens, since I'm precisely in the situation that Grant Petty described in the presentation, when he brought up 4 cameras side by side and showed how it could be rigged from "web broadcasters" (with a EF lens) to "200000$ Fujinon lens for TV sports". (I should mention: I'm in the first group ).

Anyway, according to the specs, you can add the EF adapter to this camera, but according to this thread, the "normal" lens in that case would be a 18mm (!). Not very practical, obviously. So... what is Blackmagic doing to address this? Does the EF adapter have any way to account for this? Or perhaps the 2/3 inch sensor size only applies when using the included B4 mount, and without it the actual sensor is bigger?

I'd like some clarification, because this camera looks tailor-made for a project that I'm budgeting right now, and I was having a hell of a time looking for suitable cameras for it.

Howard, I agree completely with yiu about the new ENG cameras from the big boys. I have not shot a new 4K Broadcast Camera, only the SD and one early HD model, but like yiu said, they are and need to be rock solid.

Paulo, the new Broadcast Camera has a 1-inch sensor, not 2/3rds, the B4 Mount on the Camera has an optical block that expands the image to cover the larger sensor. The EF Mount (and others), is the one from the Ursa Mini Pro, no optical correction. So a 18mm lens would be equivalent to a 50mm on a 135mm Camera. So yes, you would need to use a EF lens like the Tokina 11-16 to get any wide shots.Cheers

Denny Smith wrote: So a 18mm lens would be equivalent to a 50mm on a 135mm Camera. So yes, you would need to use a EF lens like the Tokina 11-16 to get any wide shots.

Ugh. In that case, I have a hard time seeing how Grant Petty can come out in the presentation and talk breezily about how you can start shooting with it with an EF lens and then gradually build up etc. etc... as if the EF lens was an actual, practical possibility.

I mean, I guess technically you *could* shoot with a 17-50mm, and then switch to a 11-16 every time you want even a slightly wide shot (where by "wide" we mean "anything wider than 50mm")... but is that even practical? Not to mention the optical distortion when using those kind of lenses. It's just baffling.

Well, it is not convenient, and it was not on the original BMCC EF Camera. I had two sets of zooms for my ENG camera, one wide (a 11-20equiv) and the other the regular ENG zoom. You just choose the RCS ge that will fit the situation you are shooting. I was either close in with a wide, or shooting long with the normal zoom. Only a few situations will require going from one extreme to the other. But yes, a normal ENG Zoom is going to be better and easier to use than any Canon EF photo lens.

As for distortion, Tokina 11-16, even on a APC sensor has very little distortion, and when used on the 1-inch sensor, even less, as yiur are shooting out of the center of the projected image circle, the lens distortion is on the edges of this circle, not the center. I used this lens on the Pocket camera, Erich has about the same size sensor (slightly smaller).

Not all wide angle lenses are full of distortion. A 9.5mm Zeiss Distsgon Super Speed, has less distortion than its 12mm counterpart. So distortion is in a case-by-case basis, depending on the lens being used.Cheers

Actually, I'd say that your situation was a bit more convenient. If I'm not mistaken, you had a 11-20 equiv for wide angle, and then a "normal" zoom, which I guess would cover perhaps something like 24-80 equiv. So you had most of the "normal" focal distances that one usually needs in just one lens, while the other was reserved just for really wide angle shots.

In the case of the Blackmagic, however, if you were using a 17-50, for example, it would be the equivalent of shooting normally with a 50-150 equivalent, and having to change lenses for anything wider than that. Want a 35mm focal distance? Change lens. Want a 50mm? Change lens again.

I'm having a look around, and there are really very few wide angle zooms that cover the focal distances that would make sense in this camera (something like 8-24 or similar). Sigh.

Every camera doesn't have to be able to shoot every angle, nor should it. Use longer lenses for close ups and wide angle lenses for wide shots. You can't even get a close up and a wide shot on a 3x lens. Maybe head and shoulders and a loose medium or cowboy at best. That's the compromise of using a 3x stills lens. That's not going to change if you're shooting 2/3" or 135.

Paulo, Most 2/3rds ENG zooms are more like a 7.5-10mm at the wide end and are 10 to 12 times that for the tele end, so more like 28 or 35 to 200mm equivalent on 135 format. I had a split set, to keep both lenses shorter, and give me more room st the wide end, more like a 20mm on a 135 format.Cheers

Denny, thanks for covering the bases in your reply to Craig’s question directed to me. I’m glad Howard Roll and Denny did an intervention on me when I was about to buy an ENG servo Zoom for $7,500. I’m very happy with the results of their recommendation to go with the manual HA Cine Zoom. Maybe one day I’ll be able to try it on 4K, but as Howard mentioned, that really wants a UA series Fujinon, not the HA series.

Maybe (before BMD made it feasible to use B4 HD zooms on modern single sensor digital cameras) there was a lot of inexpensive quality B4 HD glass, but BMD is changing the landscape and prices are heading north rather than south for the better used lenses.

Meanwhile new PL Super 35 Zoom lenses are coming down like the Angēnieux EZ family. If I was starting to buy lenses today without any legacy quality lenses in my kit, I’d buy 5/6 SLR Magic APO primes OR those two Angēnieux EZ zooms. Then forget about lenses and shoot.

Good advice Rick, for Cine style shooting, and a lot of other situations. But some event coverage, a good Servo Zoom does the trick. Availability of good HD B4 zooms has already dropped, along with S16 Primes like the Zeiss Super Speeds or Illumina and Elites, lens sets, are hard to find. Cheers.

Your probably right. Since I haven’t tried a servo zoom, I shouldn’t dismiss it. I was selecting new lenses as an alternative and just trying to keep the price of the EZ zooms in line with a quality set of primes on a budget.

For the type of shooting you do Rick, the Cone zooms are perfect. Different tools for different job requirements, One is not necessarily better than the other, except perhaps optically, the Cine Zooms will have the edge, with their higher resolution.Cheers

Watching consecutive segment on ABC News 24 this morning. I think it uses a single chip camera. Can anybody guess why?

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them

There have been a number of studio cameras with this sort of sensor in it.

But can anybody guess why I could tell it was a single chip?

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them

Nope. The abnormal leveling of facial features primarily. This technology, makes bumps and muscle tone of the human body jump out. Should I say bump and lump out. The subtle tonal clues of the relief of the skin seems to be exaggerated. Sort of like a relief map. Plus, horibble yellow skin. It's the two things I have against these sensors (apart from noise floor). I suspect it is the twin sampling unit alignment related.

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them

Darren, What are pricing the ENG lens out at, full new retail? Going with a used Fuji B4 HD zoom lens $900, Camera $3495 (comes with a mains power supply), shoulder kit $400, IndiPro battery, UM plate and charger $395, and BM EVF $1495, comes out to under $7K. A Sony ENG PXW 400 KC full HD Camera kit (2/3rds sensor) only is $21K. Add a case of your choice.Cheers

Darren, I don’t think BMD has stated that their UMP B4 Optical Mount with a 2x expander engaged on a B4 zoom will give you the proper coverage to shoot 3840x2160 or 4608x2492 on the UMP without clipping the image circle somewhere in the optical path.

Now if there’s not a problem with the 2x expanded image circle, then there’s the issue of the image quality. The B4 2x expanders were never intended to cover an image circle twice the target size of their ⅔” sensors. On the BMD UMP B4 Optical Mount the size of the image is actually expanded to effectively 3x. It’s only logical that an optic designed to work on a ⅔” sensor is going to be quite soft when the image is stretched 3 times in diameter, 9 times in area. I wouldn’t shoot with it or buy an old B4 HD lens assuming it’s going to give good results.

As has been pointed out previously, focal reducers appear to improve image resolution by concentrating the image and improving the T-stop significantly. An expander does the opposite, significant light loss and straining the image quality.

Yes I think there are lenses that may be good enough, but no one knows until they try a copy. We’re in a ship sailing to the edge of the known world here, exceeding all intended use cases for these old zooms.

EditApologies folks. These comments apply to the large 4.6K sensor using a B4 lens to get to 4K resolution images. My reservations don’t apply to the new URSA Mini Broadcast with the smaller sensor. Sorry for any confusion!

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Last edited by rick.lang on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Darren, I think it’s fair to say that whether or not a given ENG-style HD zoom will still provide a great UHD image on the 4.6K sensor comes down to the characteristics and resolving quality of the lens. I don’t think one can assume any HD lens will be satisfactory. I may be too conservative on this, but if it’s not possible to try the lens on the camera before purchasing, personally I’d rather be safe than sorry.

EditWhen using a high quality HD lens on the new Broadcast camera with the smaller sensor, I agree with Denny that it’s likely going to be fine shooting 4K. I think the thread was talking about smaller apples but my mind was on bigger oranges!

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Last edited by rick.lang on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

It's often 'all about the lens' but in the case of this ENG style camera, the 'quality', focal range and operator's mastery of the lens is likely to be far more important to final picture quality than any technical specs of the camera itself.

Darren Kelly wrote:Well I just priced out this little gem of a camera, and Grant, you’ve kinda exaggerated.

With lens, viewfinder, power supply, shotgun mic (pro grade), batteries and charger and the least expensive travel bag the price comes to $12,915. Ofcourse tax and shipping on top of that.

The lens can only handle HD, and not 4K. A lot more$$ for one of thoseGawd, I hate false advertising. I really do

Euhmm.. When you buy a sony or panasonic ENG.. You pay at least 3 to 4 times as much and still only have a body.. And have to add all of the above.. Or When in a upgrade path.. (having the mic, batteies, charger, maybe a still suitable lens.. You end up with buying a body and EVF.. and you are done.

Grant never stated, nor does the website infer you are getting a complete camera, but rather you can buy the camera body. Yes Sony and Panasonic sell 2/3rds ENG camera kits, the operating word here being “ Kit” which includes camera, EVF and a low end 16 or 20X servos lens, starting at around $20K. The lens being offered sells for $ 6K to alone, or upgrade to a $30K eng zoom lens. Or you can buy a Sony ENG camera body for $20-32K, and you need to add battery, EVF and a lens of your choice to get a complete camera.

I do not see a difference here, except BM is not selling a Camera Kit I’d any kind, just the camera body, at a price that is a fraction of the Panny or Sony Cameras $3500, (plus $400 for handle and shoulder kit which is included with a Sony Body), and you get to pick your battery type (Gold or V Mount $95. (Unlike Sony, you get a V Mount plate, and a Gold Mount plate will cost you $200 or $300 additional). You add in BM’s excellent EVF $1400 (Sony EVF $4300).

You select your lens, new or used, or a lens you may already have from an older Camera.

The only difference is Sony and Panasonic have a camera Kit in the $20-30K range, and the Sony an Panasonic have built in top handle and shoulder/V lock tripod base, also built in. If either the handle it base gets broken, it is a $409-800 repair! I went through this with the top handle on a Sony ENG camera.

So BM is offering you a choice, you can take or not. You get to customize the camera the way you want, instead of being forced to get specific bits, only once choice for a kit EVF and zoom lens for example. With the Broadcast Camera with a lens mount (additional options available), you get the recorder, audio mixer and inputs, up to 12G SDI Video and Return connections. A Red brain is just the the camera body module, a place to mount the lens mount, with the sensor/video processor only, no lens mount, no video recorder, no audio, no nothing. Everything has to be added. This is not the case with a BM Camera body (except the Studio Cameras which do not have/need a video recorder).

So spend less than $10K for a complete BM Studio Camera, or spend $20-30K for a Sony or Panny camera kit. The choice is yours!Cheers

Not long ago, eng cameras came 2 ways. In a complete kit including an acceptable lens. You choose your battery system

The other option was without a lens, and you choose a battery system.

Grants showing a complete camera package with viewfinders, a lens, battery and every other requirement for an ENG camera.

What Grant is selling, is what RED calls a brain.

And if you type in Sony or Panasonic and ENG, you will still find an HD camera available with or without lens, everything else is complete. Check B&H.

I don’t like false advertising. It is however becoming common in our suppliers.

ENG is not broadcast, there is a difference and much like "uncompressed" video which is actually compressed and sub-sampled it means something specific within the industry. Get a Sony broadcast camera chain and it's Christmas, you've got a dozen boxes to open and the only thing that's included in each is the manual and some styrofoam, maybe a power cable as well. This camera is a hybrid and capable functioning as either but do you really want to pay for an EVF if you're using it in a studio config or vice-versa?

Yes Howard, I totally agree. But Daniel was saying you could get an ENG camera kit less lens only, so you got a body, with handle and a EVF. But I looked at B&H and you either get a complete kit with a low end B4 ENG zoom lens, EVF and body with handles and battery plate, or just a higher end camera body (which still had the handle and shoulder pad/tripod base. But not lense or EVF. I could not find the camera kit with EVF and no lens!

So yes, the Ursa Broadcast is a different camera from an ENG camera, and while it can be configured like an ENG lens, it can also be configured for a broadcast studio camera — the choice is yours.Cheers

Panasonic always sold their ENG cameras without the EVF included. The idea, they claimed, was you would choose the cost of your EVF from basic up to high quality. It felt more like a marketing stunt to make their cameras seem even cheaper than Sony. Of course no broadcaster I ever worked for, after choosing Panasonic over Sony to save a fist full of dollars, ever choose a good EVF.

Exactly, an EVF is a very personal accessory, and what works for one person, may not for another. Sony opts for a very good high end EVF, which works for most users. Panasonic and BM let you choose the EVF you like to use, or may already have. So yiu can opt for a BM EVF (which is very good) ormupgrade to a Zacuto Gradical (several models to choose from), or spend less and use a Cineroid EVF Retna EVF. The choice is yours. Why be locked in to a EVF you may not even like. Same goes for the lens, should mount kit, etc.Cheers