Here is an interesting Da Michele video, showing how the banconista opens a dough ball, which appears to be way in excess of 250 grams. The dough seems soft, yet possessing apropos strength. The Youtube video was posted on July 3, 2013. Naples can get very hot during summer, and we know that Da Michele does not use dough coolers. In the beginning of the video, notice the three dough trays that are brought up from the cellar and placed next to four other trays already there.

Some of you may know Carmen Giannattasio (http://www.carmengiannattasio.com), one of the new promising voices in the world of opera. She is one of my favorite sopranos, and I was so surprised to come upon the next video, which features Carmen at Gino Sorbillo's. Good day!

Those Da michele pizzas look great as always. Omid what is your dough weight at Burnos? They seemed like they were pretty big. Maybe 275?

Dear Jefferey, since I am only an employee of Bruno Pizzeria, I do not feel it is decorous for me to publicly talk about certain details of the pizzeria's operations that may constitute a breach of trust between me and the management. I thank you for your understanding. Have a great day!

Dear Chaz, it is no secret (somehow I do not like using the word!) that majority of Neapolitan pizzerias, or the ones that I know of, including Bruno, use the same "00" wheat flour with which they make dough day after day.

Philosophically viewed, a reason that I like to refrain from using the word "secret" in the context of making Neapolitan dough and pizza is that it can be misleading sometimes. Often, we hear the question, "What are the secrets of making Neapolitan dough?"—as though all complications and difficulties of the art will effortlessly fade away just by the sheer act of selfless knowing. In my assessment, although I am still an amateur pizza-maker, there are no secrets—but revelations that dialectically unconceal themselves through the passage of time and through hard-work that is concomitant with unwavering commitment. It is a task that requires toiling at learning. And, as a cultural activity, it entails having meaningful dialogues on the subject with other trustful enthusiasts, where everyone is sincerely willing to listen, evaluate, and point out prejudices (preconceived notions) of one another without fears. I felt I should share with you and others this particular observation of mine. Good day!

Dear Larry, I have some practical familiarity with the method of tightly wrapping a piece of dough in a cloth. I believe it is known as "legato". Here are a couple of videos I found on the subject on YouTube:

Omid

hello Omid,

I refer to an older topic on that you mentioned in this thread.For my goal to reproduce the Franco Manca dough, I want growing a "real Italian pasta madre" with a lot of lactic acid bacteria and acetic acid bacteria as little as possible:flour 100%, water 59%, salt 3%, criscito 1,7% (converted from the recipe you've posted)

This is what I want to achieve with "legatura della pasta madre" as the Italians call wrapping the firm leaven in a kitchen towel, as you wrote earlier.

The possibility of kneading small amounts of stiff sourdough with a pasta machine is very effective! Only I do not know whether to enforce the gluten development in this way or whether the dough culture should do this on its own at the right temperature and the right time? what do you think?

After kneading with the pasta machine I have the dough (unlike the video) not scored and placed in the refrigerator, but wrapped in a cloth and laced.

Now at this point I need some help: at what temperature and for how long do you think the "legato" should rest?I did leave it at room temperature (about 68°F) overnight (about 7 hours). But the vinegary smell in the morning has clearly shown that it was either too warm, to long or both.

And further, it would also be interesting what the exact difference between the scored pasta madre (as seen on the Caputo sack and in the video of Viva la Focaccia) and the wrapped/legato pasta marde?The one way enables relaxation, while the other type is a (wrong) vacuum. What does what? When using which?

Mal

From the various academic studies I have read on starter cultures, I would say the chances of an acetobacter being resident in your starter are slim.

However the lactic acid baceteria that do tend to populate a sourdough culture can produce BOTH lactic acid AND acetic acid. When they do so, it's in equal proportions* One option is to keep your starter at warmer temperatures to favor a lactic acid and ethanol fermentation but you may end up with higher overall acidity due to increased bacterial metabolic activity.

A better strategy is to keep your culture and ferment your dough in such a way that favors yeast growth. There are several theories on this forum about how to achieve this. My personal experience has been: frequent feeding of the starter culture with higher proportions of retained starter just before you use it in your pizza dough.

edit: *This only applies to heterolactic fermentation. Homolactic bacteria produce only lactic acid and do not form a "symbiotic" relationship with yeast. However the studies I've read suggest most successful, stable sourdough cultures are predominantly populated by heterofermentative species.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 06:46:51 AM by Mal »

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Mal

Additionally:The method of keeping a stiff "pasta madre" (as shown in the video you linked to above) is employed by italian bakers, often for making such sweetened, enriched breads as Panettone and Pan d'Oro. For those methods, the frequent refresh (which I alluded to in my previous post) prior to using the starter is the normal practice.

I know that most of you here use a "normal leaven" and thus achieve good to great results.

But there are two reasons that encourage me to experiment with pasta madre:First, because I know that pasta madre is used in sweet pastry and pastry where acid flavors would interferes.For me, the sweetness of the San Marzano tomato is worthless if the dough contains a touch too much acid.The other reason are the folks at Franco Manca that also use a kind of pasta madre, as you can see in the second picture:http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic, 14506.msg161287.html # msg161287

Why do they use the somewhat more complicated pasta madre instead of ordinary leaven?Due to the temperature? Probably not, London has no sub-tropical climate.Make it only for the course, because of the show-off effect? Maybe.They do it because of tradition? Probably.They do it to avoid unwanted acids in taste? Very likely.

These are my thoughts and the reasons why I want to understand using pasta madre.

Todi

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Mal

For what it's worth, I've had the pizza at Franco Manca and I think you might be surprised how acidic it is. It's not unbearably sour but definitely the acidity is prominent compared to a non-sourdough leavened crust.

I am surprised! The one Margherita I eat there (Brixton) was not acidity at all.But all of my tries with normal leaven were. Therefore I'm searching for that possibility with natural leaven but without sourness.

I refer to an older topic on that you mentioned in this thread.For my goal to reproduce the Franco Manca dough, I want growing a "real Italian pasta madre" with a lot of lactic acid bacteria and acetic acid bacteria as little as possible:flour 100%, water 59%, salt 3%, criscito 1,7% (converted from the recipe you've posted)

This is what I want to achieve with "legatura della pasta madre" as the Italians call wrapping the firm leaven in a kitchen towel, as you wrote earlier.

The possibility of kneading small amounts of stiff sourdough with a pasta machine is very effective! Only I do not know whether to enforce the gluten development in this way or whether the dough culture should do this on its own at the right temperature and the right time? what do you think?

After kneading with the pasta machine I have the dough (unlike the video) not scored and placed in the refrigerator, but wrapped in a cloth and laced.

Now at this point I need some help: at what temperature and for how long do you think the "legato" should rest?I did leave it at room temperature (about 68°F) overnight (about 7 hours). But the vinegary smell in the morning has clearly shown that it was either too warm, to long or both.

And further, it would also be interesting what the exact difference between the scored pasta madre (as seen on the Caputo sack and in the video of Viva la Focaccia) and the wrapped/legato pasta marde?The one way enables relaxation, while the other type is a (wrong) vacuum. What does what? When using which?

Thanks, Todi

Dear Todi, unfortunately I am not the right person to answer your questions because I have never experimented with "legatura della pasta madre" in conjunction with sourdough culture for the purpose of making Neapolitan pizza dough. In addition, I am not sure if I have correctly understood the content of your above-referenced post and your main objective by adopting the method.

Although my knowledge is very scanty in this field, allow me to make some comments. If your aim is to produce a sourdough pizza dough that carries a hint of sourness, then "legatura della pasta madre" may not be the expedient or right application. My assumption is that when your sourdough legatura is under relative pressure (which gradually builds up as the dough skin dries up and the fermentation gases get trapped inside the dough that is tightly wrapped with a towel or linen) while being deprived from atmospheric air, then this condition may promote production or over-production of those organic acids that are characteristic of lactic flavor at the expense of upsetting a favorable ratio between the wild yeasts and lactic acid bacteria. (I do not know what was the state of your sourdough culture before making your legatura.) I am just thinking out loud here. The sourdough chemistry can be a convoluted subject matter to non-specialists.

I hope someone who is knowledgeable in this sphere can shed some light on this subject. Guten tag!

In the video, Vincenzo, a tour guide, stated:"What we believe is the real pizza here in Naples is the one which does not need to be chewed, which melts in your mouth, goes straight through your throat and into your stomach."

Omid, have you experienced this phenomenon of pizza that does not need to be chewed? I realize that this is a hyperbolic statement, but I wonder if there isn't some truth to it as well. My own dough certainly must be chewed, and every other pizza I have had required substantial chewing. Which I don't mind at all. Yet I find the idea of a very light pizza appealing as well. So I'm wondering if you can identify with Vincenzo in this video, or if he is just carried away as some times happens.

On a more practical level, and perhaps to encourage you to expand a bit on this topic, if we are aiming for a very tender crust, what do you consider to be the key factors in achieving such a crust?

Omid, have you experienced this phenomenon of pizza that does not need to be chewed? I realize that this is a hyperbolic statement, but I wonder if there isn't some truth to it as well. My own dough certainly must be chewed, and every other pizza I have had required substantial chewing. Which I don't mind at all. Yet I find the idea of a very light pizza appealing as well. So I'm wondering if you can identify with Vincenzo in this video, or if he is just carried away as some times happens.

On a more practical level, and perhaps to encourage you to expand a bit on this topic, if we are aiming for a very tender crust, what do you consider to be the key factors in achieving such a crust?

Regards,

TinRoof

Dear TinRoof, after I read your post, I felt it was prudent to look up the word "chew" in an English dictionary. According to the American Heritage Dictionary (4th edition), the verb "chew" means: "to bite and grind with the teeth". I also looked up the adjective "chewy": "needing much chewing".

In my view, the phrase "does not need to be chewed" or "melts in the mouth" is an expedient exaggeration that allusively expresses a general truth or experience that may not be communicated as effectively if it were explicitly mentioned. An Italian member of this forum can correct me if I am wrong. In general, such idiomatic, figurative, or nonliteral mode of communication is quite common in southern Italy. The more north you go, the more literal-minded they appear.

In regard to your last question, I think there are a number of interlinked and indispensable factors that should be considered in order to procure a pizza base that "melts in the mouth" . Briefly put, the factors are:

1. Proper flour that is hydrated within an auspicious range (naturally, the percentages of salt and yeast are also consequential);2. Proper kneading and dough manipulation;3. Proper dough fermentation (of a long duration in accordance with how No. 1 & No. 2, above, are worked out) and dough maturation;4. Proper opening of dough balls;5. Proper WFO and temperature;6. Properly baking the pizzas in the WFO within a very short period of time.

I am sorry that my answer is too brief and general. This is an expansive topic. A substantial portion of the Neapolitan section of this forum is dedicated toward pondering on your question and the six factors listed above. Good day!

Thank you Omid. You have given me plenty to "chew on". I have recently been re-reading some of your writings on dough formulation.

I purchased a Blackstone oven and so I now have the capability to cook a pizza very quickly. I hope you will have an opportunity to bake some of your dough in one of these ovens sometime. It would be interesting to get your feedback on it. There may be some technical issues with baking a proper Neapolitan pizza in this oven, but at least there is no question that it can get hot enough to do so.

Dear Vincenzo, it was about a year ago when my friend (an electronic engineer who lives in Russia now) helped me to reduce the RPM of my Santos motor without any modifications to the mixer. Unfortunately, I do not remember the details of how he accomplished this. Basically, he used an electronic module that, if I remember correctly, would send electric pulses to the Santos motor at longer intervals (without reducing the 60Hz frequency) in order to emulate 30Hz or lower frequencies, hence reducing the RPM of the motor by half or lower. I will send him an email to provide me with details. I will inform you. . . .

Dear Vincenzo, I have not received any response yet from my friend in Russia. Earlier today, I sent him another email. I will inform you as soon as I receive his feedback. Good day!

Mal

Dear Vincenzo, it was about a year ago when my friend (an electronic engineer who lives in Russia now) helped me to reduce the RPM of my Santos motor without any modifications to the mixer. Unfortunately, I do not remember the details of how he accomplished this. Basically, he used an electronic module that, if I remember correctly, would send electric pulses to the Santos motor at longer intervals (without reducing the 60Hz frequency) in order to emulate 30Hz or lower frequencies, hence reducing the RPM of the motor by half or lower. I will send him an email to provide me with details. I will inform you. . . .