Post by clivethebarker on Jan 6, 2019 14:15:28 GMT -6

With the recent cancellation of the Mac and Linux versions of Bloodstained, there has been a great amount of outcry on Kickstarter, Reddit, the offical Discord, two online news articles and these very forums. To try and construct a better picture of backer sentiment towards the subject that the CMs can share, I've constructed a simple poll as to whether refunds should be offered as they were to Vita backers. QuestionAngel-CorluxXombieMike

Post by turbor on Jan 7, 2019 12:41:28 GMT -6

Nice personal initiative, but it would be much nicer if the official companies involved would simply do the correct and honorable thing: Refund the people who pledged due to the promised Linux/Mac version, who are now left out in the cold.

Or here is an even better idea, simply get their act together and come back on it. Get assistance and create the Linux and Mac port. As browren nicely put it in an other post:

As publisher, 505 needs to show that an actual effort was made to create a Linux version of Bloodstained, and identify the showstopping problem that makes it impossible to deliver. So far, not one screenshot was made on Linux, not one demo was available on Linux, and no project updates mention problems being addressed on Linux. The Kickstarter was clear about Linux support being a goal and not a "stretch" goal; it promised support for the platform, via both Steam and GOG. You may not back out without showing that you at least tried.

Post by ssokolow on Jan 7, 2019 21:26:55 GMT -6

Agreed. This really comes across as them not keeping priorities in mind when allocating their time.

Heck, you don't even need to have been a programmer to have watched Ryan Gordon's talk at Steam Dev Days 2014: Make sure the same codebase is used to build all target platforms and make sure you get it building on all of them in parallel as quickly as possible, so you can catch portability-related technical debt before it festers, rather than trying to retrofit at the end.

Post by XombieMike on Jan 8, 2019 11:23:57 GMT -6

I'm all for a refund for Mac and Linux backers, but I gotta tell ya that after seeing that is so few people who have actually backed for those platforms, development resources do not need to be wasted on making a game on a platform that will only have a handful of people playing on it.

I understand this poll doesn't capture everyone, but compared to the other polls I've seen here, this really puts some perspective on why this decision was made. At this point I hope they never wasted a single day developing for Mac or Linux.

Post by clivethebarker on Jan 8, 2019 12:01:04 GMT -6

I'm all for a refund for Mac and Linux backers, but I gotta tell ya that after seeing that is so few people who have actually backed for those platforms, development resources do not need to be wasted on making a game on a platform that will only have a handful of people playing on it.

I understand this poll doesn't capture everyone, but compared to the other polls I've seen here, this really puts some perspective on why this decision was made. At this point I hope they never wasted a single day developing for Mac or Linux.

Then refunds shouldn't be an issue at all. I'm pretty much done with asking at this point, 505 scammed me out of my money, and I got to watch a slow motion dumpster fire in return that I won't be able to play at all, helluva prank there.

Post by allooutrick on Jan 8, 2019 19:08:13 GMT -6

For the sake of discussion, how could refunds be brought about? I don't recall seeing an option to state which PC version the backer wanted. It was just PC Steam and PC GoG.

There's three things I can see happening:They allow all PC backers the chance for a refund, they don't allow refunds, or they only allow PC backers to change platform.

What other options could there be? Further speculation... What repercussions and benefits could each choice have regarding company image, development funding, and customer satisfaction? What are the chances of PC backers taking a refund even though they didn't want Mac or Linux?

Post by Galamoth on Jan 8, 2019 21:05:23 GMT -6

For the sake of discussion, how could refunds be brought about? I don't recall seeing an option to state which PC version the backer wanted. It was just PC Steam and PC GoG.

There's three things I can see happening:They allow all PC backers the chance for a refund, they don't allow refunds, or they only allow PC backers to change platform.

What other options could there be? Further speculation... What repercussions and benefits could each choice have regarding company image, development funding, and customer satisfaction? What are the chances of PC backers taking a refund even though they didn't want Mac or Linux?

Now that you mention it, that's probably why I never noticed until recently that Mac or Linux versions were ever offered as part of the initial campaign.

I don't recall ever seeing Mac or Linux offered as platform options in the Surveys we were given.

Post by clivethebarker on Jan 8, 2019 21:06:32 GMT -6

For the sake of discussion, how could refunds be brought about? I don't recall seeing an option to state which PC version the backer wanted. It was just PC Steam and PC GoG.

There's three things I can see happening:They allow all PC backers the chance for a refund, they don't allow refunds, or they only allow PC backers to change platform.

What other options could there be? Further speculation... What repercussions and benefits could each choice have regarding company image, development funding, and customer satisfaction? What are the chances of PC backers taking a refund even though they didn't want Mac or Linux?

That's frankly their problem for not supporting the backed platform, if others abuse it, it does not change the platform I backed. They should have planned better and there will be no refunds regardless.

Post by Scars Unseen on Jan 9, 2019 11:11:37 GMT -6

I think that the affected people should get refunds, but frankly, the way that some people are coming across in these threads almost makes me want to change my opinion on that. "Screw 'em if they give out more refunds than is warranted as long as I get mine" is kind of a tough stance to support.

Post by clivethebarker on Jan 9, 2019 14:16:13 GMT -6

I think that the affected people should get refunds, but frankly, the way that some people are coming across in these threads almost makes me want to change my opinion on that. "Screw 'em if they give out more refunds than is warranted as long as I get mine" is kind of a tough stance to support.

Just returning the amount of care 505 is giving to Linux backers back at them, doesn't seem particularly nice now does it? You get what you give. With every update with no useful content for six months, then a Christmas gift of tough luck, you don't get your platform etc. has leeched all the sympathy I have for the developers/publisher away at this point.

Post by ssokolow on Jan 9, 2019 15:19:15 GMT -6

I think that the affected people should get refunds, but frankly, the way that some people are coming across in these threads almost makes me want to change my opinion on that. "Screw 'em if they give out more refunds than is warranted as long as I get mine" is kind of a tough stance to support.

The issue is that, given how they promised Linux and Mac support ("(PC/Mac/Linux)" right in the reward descriptions), there's a legal case to be made that everyone who backed for GOG or Steam is entitled to receive a refund if desired, regardless of which platform they currently intend to play it on, because the promise was for all three platforms.

(Similar to how, if you buy a boxed game on eBay that's listed as containing both 3.5" and 5.25" floppies, it doesn't matter if you only intended to use the 3.5" floppies in your retro-gaming PC when you bought it. If the 5.25" floppies are missing, you can open a "not as described" case.)

Had they just offered me a refund from the beginning, I'd have been disappointed, but we'd have parted amicably, but I backed this specifically to encourage and reward the development of games for Linux. It's hard to see a bigger insult in that context than for them to say "On second thought, we're not doing Linux after all, but we're keeping your inducement to develop for Linux anyway. Here's a key for something else."

Post by Galamoth on Jan 9, 2019 15:40:25 GMT -6

With every update with no useful content for six months, then a Christmas gift of tough luck, you don't get your platform etc. has leeched all the sympathy I have for the developers/publisher away at this point.

Purely subjective.

Based on the past six monthly updates before the December one:

Update #70 informed us of the release of download-codes for the Beta Backer Demo, which significantly expanded upon the available features & areas of the previous demo. It also allowed for feedback from backers to begin helping to identify bugs & other things that may need fixing.

Update #71 showed us examples of backer feedback that were addressed, and that they would place focus on fixing bugs. Many backers were also concerned about the lighting & lip-sync in the demo, so that was addressed as well.

Update #72 was when we were informed that the game would be delayed to 2019, and that the PS Vita version was dropped due to the system's discontinued support from Sony, also allowing for refunds to be issued.

Update #73 informed us of the release of demo keys for the GOG version of the Beta Backer Demo, and that all the feedback/bug reports had been received and compiled for review.

Update #74, aside from the Killer Barber enemy showcase (ignoring it), informs us of work being done on enemy placements for Nightmare Mode.

Update #75, again ignoring the new enemy showcase, announced that WayForward joined the project to help the development team fix more bugs & make further improvements. For something that this thread may consider "not useful content", plenty of people were making a big deal of WayForward coming aboard as if they were replacing DICO (which turned out false).

I'm not going to try changing your mind about the project at this point. It is however interesting, even a bit amusing, that you have such an opinion about the previous six updates.

Post by thrashinuva on Jan 9, 2019 19:38:34 GMT -6

I can't answer this because we simply don't have enough information. The lack of information on this matter is itself a point of contention.

It's also highly possible that many of the backer incentives have already been paid for, and cannot be recouped with refunds in the mix. If it's possible to refund these backers without much consequence, then I should hope that would be among the highest of priorities.

Addressing a point made in another thread, if the backers who chose Windows vs Mac/Linux cannot be differentiated, then I would deem this impossible to accomplish, and if this is the case, I would expect that to be communicated.

Post by browren on Jan 9, 2019 22:31:32 GMT -6

Yeah... at this point, I'd still be all for refunds to Mac/Linux backers, but only for the affected people who aren't on some revenge-campaign against an unexpected issue for the project.

There was no description of any unexpected technical issue. Question 's response says the main issue is that they don't feel like they should have to do any extra work to meet their obligations, not that there's an insurmountable, unexpected development problem.

Backers were denied something they paid for, 505 has publicly stated that the main problem is they don't want to spend time or money on it, and they've refused twice now to state any actual technical problem, and they're not going to give anyone a refund. It's not fair to call being angry about that a revenge campaign.

Post by browren on Jan 9, 2019 22:42:44 GMT -6

For the sake of discussion, how could refunds be brought about? I don't recall seeing an option to state which PC version the backer wanted. It was just PC Steam and PC GoG.

Writing a "request a refund App" that runs on only Mac and Linux would take them about 15 minutes of C++/QT work and narrow down the player base a lot. At least you have evidence that the request comes from someone that has access to one of the affected platforms.

Alternately, require production of evidence (as in, Steam account name and purchase history, GOG purchase history, etc) that someone plays games on these platforms. It's not hard.

I'm a bit curious why so many of you think that the PC/Windows backers are all going to try to hop on board with refunds. They lose their backer perks and copy of the game, so what would be the point? They're getting the game, they've waited ages, so why try to bail now?

Aztec: I don’t visit the Discord but I want to ask if we have any confirmation about the Ayami Kojima box art and the backer exclusive slip cover coming with my physical game day and date or is that coming also later? I realize the design is secret but when?May 24, 2019 17:34:35 GMT -6

Aztec: Also we’re supposed to get another update next Thursday, yes?May 24, 2019 17:35:04 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: The Discord has been a mad house since yesterday, with random folks giving incorrect answers to things, so I'll just tell you here: the slipcase yes, but the Kojima stuff no.May 24, 2019 17:48:12 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: It's been a while since I heard that specifically asked about and its answer so I'm not 100% sure on the slipcase, but definitely the Kojima art is in a later shipment with the other rewards.May 24, 2019 17:48:38 GMT -6

Galamoth: Though we are still getting another update next Thursday, right?May 24, 2019 19:32:12 GMT -6

Arsenical: *drinks * the game i have been waiting for such a long time is only a few weeks away from me. i am so excited. im sure other peoples here share that excitement so lets read the new threads. . . . . . . oh.May 24, 2019 21:14:53 GMT -6

Arsenical: meh! who cares! i will still enjoy the shiz out of this game and my name will be on the credits. not only that but now i will be able to enjoy full content even if i lose my backer edition so yeah either way i win. *drinks more *May 24, 2019 21:19:43 GMT -6

Arsenical: but am i the only one who thinks that the idea of the steelcases was terrible? why get 3rd party items involved in your project? people is greedy and will whine about it if they dont get it for free! or did i miss something here?May 24, 2019 21:22:37 GMT -6

roguedragon05: Does anyone know if Bloodstained will be at E3 at all this year?May 24, 2019 21:58:44 GMT -6

Aztec: Thanks @purifyweirdshard for the answers. I’m bummed about no Kojima art. That would’ve made for some excellent PR before the game came out. I wish they could show it off even if they physical prints were shipping later but oh wellMay 24, 2019 23:57:01 GMT -6