Baiting Nigerian scammers for fun (not so much for profit)

Who are scam baiters, and why do they bother trying to give scammers the runaround? Ars explores the flourishing communities of scam baiters who help each other do everything they can to waste scammers' time, including enticing them to get ridiculous tattoos and sending them on treks across Africa for nonexistent cash.

I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, but I think this is nasty and immoral. Scamming isn't right, obviously, and the baiters' stories are admittedly often funny, but let's get real. The scam baiters are well-off Westerners (even if they happen to be poor, by global standards, they're relatively well-off). The scammers themselves are from the developing world, and they're just trying to make a living--in an awful way, to be sure.

Tricking a poor Nigerian into wasting huge amounts of his time and money and possibly getting him into serious legal trouble is just wrong. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do to you, or did to others in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right, and they especially don't when there's a fundamental power imbalance between the West and the developing world.

Again, sorry to be the humorless guy in the conversation, but this is really just mean-spirited and petty at best, and deeply cruel and life-threatening at worst.

Gerson, if a kid growing up in the inner city can help his family by robbing houses, holding people at gunpoint, and selling the proceeds to buy food, does that make it ok? No, it doesn't... screw these assholes.

Must be a slow news day. At any rate, one of my favorites is the video of a couple scammers performing the Monty Python "dead parrot" skit. It's on YouTube for the curious.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerson:I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, but I think this is nasty and immoral. Scamming isn't right, obviously, and the baiters' stories are admittedly often funny, but let's get real. The scam baiters are well-off Westerners (even if they happen to be poor, by global standards, they're relatively well-off). The scammers themselves are from the developing world, and they're just trying to make a living--in an awful way, to be sure.

Tricking a poor Nigerian into wasting huge amounts of his time and money and possibly getting him into serious legal trouble is just wrong. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do to you, or did to others in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right, and they especially don't when there's a fundamental power imbalance between the West and the developing world.

Again, sorry to be the humorless guy in the conversation, but this is really just mean-spirited and petty at best, and deeply cruel and life-threatening at worst.

Your pity is misplaced. These scams have been going on for years. That means they work, which in turn means they are successfully stealing people's money, and probably end up living better than the people they scam. They prey on the poor and elderly. They're scum.

"One baiter's character recently told the scammer that he had a choice between sending the scammer $5,000 or using the same money to pay for his baby daughter's cancer treatment—I think you can guess which option the scammer chose."

So no... they're not only poor people trying to make a living, they're less than human... to be happy over money you got by killing someone's baby, is something that makes you garbage... makes you filth... something to be ashamed of being in the same race with.

It seems that all the comments intended for me are making more or less the same point: the scammers are scum and therefore they deserve what the baiters do to them.

I didn't mean to imply that the scammers aren't doing awful things--I said as much in my original post.

My point is that what the baiters are doing is flat-out wrong. It's an old cliche, but two wrongs truly, really, honestly do not make a right. The proper response to scammers is better law enforcement and poverty reduction, not vigilantism. Obviously the Nigerian government isn't reining this in, and other, international efforts are apparently not very successful either. However, that does not give us the right to take the law into our own hands and come up with bizarre punishments (even if they seem funny to us).

I also stand by my statement that as Westerners, we have power and privilege that inevitably alters the moral and practical impact of what we do to people in developing countries--no matter how terrible, even genuinely evil these people might be.

The bottom line is simple: if the scammers are behaving in truly awful ways, let's not join them in becoming "garbage."

And let's be mindful that for each scammer who would rather get $5,000 than see a baby girl get cancer treatment, there are many others who are not nearly as heinous.

If the baiters really wanted to make the world a better place, they'd work to educate people about how to detect scams, and they'd give money to charities that improve life in Nigeria and other places, because scamming really is tied to poverty and desperation in many--not all, but many--cases.

OK, I'm done being the buzzkill. I do agree that the baiters' stories are pretty funny at times, but still...

As a Nigerian, I can't dredge the concern out of give-a-fuck bay. Maga don pay, na so e be.

(In my own twisted bit of logic, every time someone makes a "Nigerian scam" joke to me, I hope someone close to them gets taken for all they have. What's that? That's mean-spirited? Yes, and I so enjoy being assumed to be a fraudster.)

Originally posted by Gerson:I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, but I think this is nasty and immoral. Scamming isn't right, obviously, and the baiters' stories are admittedly often funny, but let's get real. The scam baiters are well-off Westerners (even if they happen to be poor, by global standards, they're relatively well-off). The scammers themselves are from the developing world, and they're just trying to make a living--in an awful way, to be sure.

Tricking a poor Nigerian into wasting huge amounts of his time and money and possibly getting him into serious legal trouble is just wrong. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do to you, or did to others in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right, and they especially don't when there's a fundamental power imbalance between the West and the developing world.

Again, sorry to be the humorless guy in the conversation, but this is really just mean-spirited and petty at best, and deeply cruel and life-threatening at worst.

Poor Mr Scammer. He might get into legal trouble for violating the law. boo-fucking-hoo. Best case he just gets his time wasted. By your logic it's alright for poor folks in the US to commit any crime they wish, hey they're just poor! We should give them carte blanche.

When the poor steal clothes, food, and maybe shelter I really don't care. Those are the necessities of life. Stealing millions of dollars from the ignorant and elderly in other countries does not equate to survival. Look at the looters in Louisiana after hurricane Katrina as an example. There were two varieties. The group that broke into stores to get food, clothing, and water. Then you had the group that formed a bucket-brigade type line in the electronics department. The Nigerian scammers are pretty much the latter example. And the so called vigilantes have done no wrong. They, unlike the scammers, have not stolen a dime. They have simply wasted scammers time and in some cases got the law involved. Wow, what a crime. God I hate bleeding hearts.

Originally posted by Gerson:I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, but I think this is nasty and immoral. Scamming isn't right, obviously, and the baiters' stories are admittedly often funny, but let's get real. The scam baiters are well-off Westerners (even if they happen to be poor, by global standards, they're relatively well-off). The scammers themselves are from the developing world, and they're just trying to make a living--in an awful way, to be sure.

Tricking a poor Nigerian into wasting huge amounts of his time and money and possibly getting him into serious legal trouble is just wrong. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do to you, or did to others in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right, and they especially don't when there's a fundamental power imbalance between the West and the developing world.

Again, sorry to be the humorless guy in the conversation, but this is really just mean-spirited and petty at best, and deeply cruel and life-threatening at worst.

I agree with you completely. I first read about 419eaters.com a while ago and was not impressed. Not only is it juvenile, it's morally dubious and rather pathetic when all is said and done.

Fighting fire with fire has never worked on any real level.

The people who participate with 419eaters.com are, frankly, about as bad as the spammers themselves.

In all truth, the onus on the victims of 419 scams to wake up, join the real world and realise that they're being scammed.

If you suffer from dementia and yet manage, autonomously, your entire estate, well what the fuck did you think was going to happen?

Yeah. It's not like families abandon their elders or anything in the US (especially once they realize how much care they'll need or money it will cost for an assisted living facility). That's so totally unheard of.

I fail to see how there is anything wrong with wasting despicable scammers' time in baiting them.

To send them into dangerous situations is however far more morally questionable and depending on what is done can lower the perpetrator to a similar level as the people he/she is fighting against, IMO.

Originally posted by lordmedikit:I fail to see how there is anything wrong with wasting despicable scammers' time in baiting them.

To send them into dangerous situations is however far more morally questionable and depending on what is done can lower the perpetrator to a similar level as the people he/she is fighting against, IMO.

Wow. Moderation in a post. What's the world coming towards? Genuine empathy? Hell no; that can't be tolerated.

Originally posted by Gerson:I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, but I think this is nasty and immoral.

This is a valid concern, but in the end I do not generally agree. I do agree that it is the job of law enforcement to tackle this illegal practice. I do agree that vigilantism is not normally something that should be cheered.

However, the goal of the scambaiters as it is stated on the front page of 419Etater is to waste the scammers' time and resources. The scambaiters do not do this for personal gains, and as long as the scambaits are in line with the stated goal of 419Etater, I think it falls on the right side of the line. It is also a point that has to be taken into consideration that law enforcement has proven to be completely incapable of dealing with this problem.

I also think it is misplaced to mix the Rich Westerner/Poor Nigerian into this. In my mind, the financial situation of either the scammers or the baiters has got nothing to do with the ethics of this. Also, many of the scammers run their operation like a successfull business, with people working for them in many countries. This is not a living-in-a-straw-hut-and-trying-to-feed-family story. Just read the John Boko scammer story that was linked to above.

I do however completely agree that putting the scammers in harm's way is crossing the line. Putting anybody willfully into harms way is illegal and unetchical, even if you think the person is an a**hole. Simple as that. When you start thinking "He had it coming!" you've turned into Internet Tough Guy and a Punisher-like vigilantism.

I think there's a very dubious assumption behind these baiting websites, namely that the guys that end up being made to do all this stuff are in fact the ones behind the scam. If you were a criminal mastermind, would you really disfigure yourself, or would you force someone else to get tattooed in your stead? There's a very good chance these operations are run by gangs, employing people with very little choice in the matter. I've got no problem with time-wasting tactics, but when you get into permanent disfigurement I think you're in very dubious territory.

The one with the wood carving of a C64 is classic, though; doesn't hurt anyone, and is utterly hilarious. Pure gold.

i'm not saying that every scammer has a secret heart of gold and just wants to be understood, but i guess i am saying that a large number of scammers wouldn't feel the need to scam if they weren't quite so hungry and their victims weren't quite so obviously well fed.

i also feel that regardless of whether or not you yourself profit from the reverse scam, the act of taking money or other resources away from another person by means of deceit is a bad way of dispensing justice, because you're not teaching your victim that they'll be punished or that their actions were wrong; you're just teaching them that they're not as good at this game as you.

alistarr*i'm not saying that every scammer has a secret heart of gold and just wants to be understood, but i guess i am saying that a large number of scammers wouldn't feel the need to scam if they weren't quite so hungry and their victims weren't quite so obviously well fed.

Nice assumption that the scammed are "well fed". Were it not for my own intervention in one phone call, my dying grandmother would have fallen victim to one of these scams as well. Too bad she was well fed while dying, you worthless fucking punk!

In all truth, the onus on the victims of 419 scams to wake up, join the real world and realise that they're being scammed.

Yeah. Since most of the scammed are typically elderly folks that tend to suffer from things like dementia and Alzheimer disease. You're right. They should just heal themselves and wake the fuck up. :|

How many Alzheimers patients or people with Senile Dementia are actually capable of using the internet? Not too many, I'll warrant.

Sorry, but you're copping out...

By and large, the people who fall for scams can be described with one word: Greedy

Simply put, when someone send you an email offering you a $10k cut on $100k being moved between offshore accounts a couple of things should be obvious:

1: It's a scam2: If it's not a scam, it's illegal3: It's a scam

Personally, if you glide past one and three, while two doesn't bother you in the slightest, then you deserve to get scammed for all your worth because at the end of the day most law-abiding people are intelligent enough to relise that:

You Do Not Get Something For Nothing!

Yes, I know that some old people get scammed. No, I don't think they fall into the same category. Neither do I think they're the majority of scam victims though. I think people like this (http://www.katu.com/news/34292654.html) are more likely the majority among scam victims and describing them as simply greedy is not more than they deserve...

Originally posted by alistarr*:i'm not saying that every scammer has a secret heart of gold and just wants to be understood, but i guess i am saying that a large number of scammers wouldn't feel the need to scam if they weren't quite so hungry and their victims weren't quite so obviously well fed.

I always try to be careful drawing conclusions about the people behind the posts here and elsewhere. But let me just say that on a general basis there is a very unfortunate myth penetrating the West that people in Africa are poor and hungry. I can tell you that nothing pisses off the middleclass all over Africa more than hearing and seeing this being repeated over and over in Euorpe and I would have to surmise, the US.Yes, some people are hungry in Africa, some regions are in turmoil in Africa. The continent is not alone in harbouring such scenarios. But the way the western media, fuelled by Aid NGOs who are always in need of donations, treat and generalize the situation is not helping anybody.Nigeria, for instance, has a lagre middle class and sprawling urban areas. The problem with scams do not stem from hunger, but from ill-regulated infrastructure and an ineffective law enforcment, fuelled by corruption. Nigeria might have poor people, but the ones running the scams are not among them. They are well-connected city-dwellers who make a nice profit from their scams. If they hadn't, scamming would die out by itself.

I've been reading the 419eater site for a while now, and the more I read the more it seems like these baiters are becoming what they hate. Especially the guy calling himself 'shivermetimbers,' who is essentially spending a lot of time to scam these guys into sending him souvenirs. The wooden C-64 is impressive, but after reading a dozen similar posts it seems like he's a bit too interested in getting these items for himself...

In all truth, the onus on the victims of 419 scams to wake up, join the real world and realise that they're being scammed.

Yeah. Since most of the scammed are typically elderly folks that tend to suffer from things like dementia and Alzheimer disease. You're right. They should just heal themselves and wake the fuck up. :|

How many Alzheimers patients or people with Senile Dementia are actually capable of using the internet? Not too many, I'll warrant.

Sorry, but you're copping out...

By and large, the people who fall for scams can be described with one word: Greedy

Simply put, when someone send you an email offering you a $10k cut on $100k being moved between offshore accounts a couple of things should be obvious:

1: It's a scam2: If it's not a scam, it's illegal3: It's a scam

Personally, if you glide past one and three, while two doesn't bother you in the slightest, then you deserve to get scammed for all your worth because at the end of the day most law-abiding people are intelligent enough to relise that:

You Do Not Get Something For Nothing!

Yes, I know that some old people get scammed. No, I don't think they fall into the same category. Neither do I think they're the majority of scam victims though. I think people like this (http://www.katu.com/news/34292654.html) are more likely the majority among scam victims and describing them as simply greedy is not more than they deserve...

This comment was edited by OOPMan on May 12, 2009 09:51

So, by your own logic (which is moronic). Anyone falling for a scam deserves to be taken and the scammer is just to do so. Once again I say, FUCK YOU!

Originally posted by alistarr*:i'm not saying that every scammer has a secret heart of gold and just wants to be understood, but i guess i am saying that a large number of scammers wouldn't feel the need to scam if they weren't quite so hungry and their victims weren't quite so obviously well fed.

I always try to be careful drawing conclusions about the people behind the posts here and elsewhere. But let me just say that on a general basis there is a very unfortunate myth penetrating the West that people in Africa are poor and hungry. I can tell you that nothing pisses off the middleclass all over Africa more than hearing and seeing this being repeated over and over in Euorpe and I would have to surmise, the US.Yes, some people are hungry in Africa, some regions are in turmoil in Africa. The continent is not alone in harbouring such scenarios. But the way the western media, fuelled by Aid NGOs who are always in need of donations, treat and generalize the situation is not helping anybody.Nigeria, for instance, has a lagre middle class and sprawling urban areas. The problem with scams do not stem from hunger, but from ill-regulated infrastructure and an ineffective law enforcment, fuelled by corruption. Nigeria might have poor people, but the ones running the scams are not among them. They are well-connected city-dwellers who make a nice profit from their scams. If they hadn't, scamming would die out by itself.

perhaps we're working to different definitions. i define someone who can afford to invest $5000 in someone else's bank account as being "well fed".

i also made no reference to an East/West divide. i realise it's referenced in the article, but the only divide my comment made reference to was that between the scammer and the scammed.

i'm willing to concede that many scammers will be well off. i'm happy to agree that the most successful scammers will also probably fall into that "well off" grouping. but i'm not willing to concede that those well off, successful scammers are the ones being given the runaround and getting ridiculous tattoos. so i stand by my suggestion that the people being "punished" by 419 "eaters" aren't successful, middle class criminals.

all of what i've said in the thread is heavily based on my own assumptions and i'm sure i've tripped up a couple of times, but i don't think i've tripped up in quite the places you point out.

alistarr*i'm not saying that every scammer has a secret heart of gold and just wants to be understood, but i guess i am saying that a large number of scammers wouldn't feel the need to scam if they weren't quite so hungry and their victims weren't quite so obviously well fed.

Nice assumption that the scammed are "well fed". Were it not for my own intervention in one phone call, my dying grandmother would have fallen victim to one of these scams as well. Too bad she was well fed while dying, you worthless fucking punk!

personally, I aprove of the guys who waste these scammers time! I also find the logic behind the "two wrongs do not make one right" to be dubious. They are not scamming them out of money, but out of time, during which they cannot scan.

Yet another dubious argument is the rich vs poor one, do you aprove of piracy in Somalia too? Scamming is not a victimless crime, and while most will not fall prey to the millions of dollars hidden in Africa, I'm sure lots have fallen to the you win 20000, please send money to collect your prize... Actually, according to a Quebec tv show " la facture " mostly elderly, and poor people fall to these types of scams.

So it is interesting to read the argument that poor are doing this to rich.

Good luck to the scam baiters...

Personnallt, I always give them the address and email of the RCMP for further communication

Your pity is misplaced. These scams have been going on for years. That means they work, which in turn means they are successfully stealing people's money, and probably end up living better than the people they scam. They prey on the poor and elderly. They're scum.

Yes, they're scum. But shouldn't "we" have learned by now that if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is?

And where is the pity for the "poor" (with internet access for sure) and elderly when their computers get infected with trojans and other viruses? In 99% of the cases all I hear from the "IT crowd" is that they're stupid users, who should have known not to open up the file attachment sent from an unknown email address.

I don't have a problem with scam baiters having a bit of fun, but making these truly poor guys travel thousands of miles into regions of conflict kind of pushes the envelope a bit too far.

alistarr*i'm not saying that every scammer has a secret heart of gold and just wants to be understood, but i guess i am saying that a large number of scammers wouldn't feel the need to scam if they weren't quite so hungry and their victims weren't quite so obviously well fed.

Nice assumption that the scammed are "well fed". Were it not for my own intervention in one phone call, my dying grandmother would have fallen victim to one of these scams as well. Too bad she was well fed while dying, you worthless fucking punk!

I worked with a senior citizen trying to clean up the financial mess left behind after she sent Nigerian scammers tens of thousands of dollars. They caught her when she was vulnerable right after her husband passed away. People who are unsophisticated, suffering from depression, and in the beginning stages of Alzheimer's CAN use the internet. There are all kinds of classes at senior citizen centers to help them. Plus wire transfer businesses are more than happy to collect hefty fees to send your money to Nigeria.

As for the comments about it's wrong to mess with these people, your logic escapes me. It's OK for them to scam, but wrong to scam them back? I don't get that. Anybody who can scam the scammers has my support. Go get 'em!

Actually, it does, it's a well established technique for fighting and preventing forest fires.

Anyway, as many pointed out, poverty isn't excuse for a crime. Also many scammers are making real money. Anything that wastes their time and money and gets them in trouble is OK with me.

Z.

Damn, got me there :-)

Nevertheless, the bottom line is this:

If, as a scambaiter, you cause a scammer to die you have essentially committed manslaughter.

Scambaiters who merely waste scammers time are simply being peurile.

Scambaiters who cause scammers to be injured or killed are, in fact, commiting criminal violations.

The former scenario is acceptable.

The latter is not.

Maybe I sound ridiculous...

Let me relate a little tale to you...

Here in South Africa we had a group of vigilantes called PAGAD (People Against Gansterism and Drugs). They started out as a peaceful protest group and people percieved them in a positive light. However, they began to enage in acts of violent vigilantism and eventually came to be more of a criminal organisation then a community one. In the end, they were killing more police than criminals.

Vigilantism is not cool. It's not acceptable. Maybe right now 419eaters.com seems harmless. Will it still be so harmless in 5 years time?Will the scambaiter capable of convincing a scammer to get himself tatooed one day go: "Wow, I'm quite good at this. Maybe I should try and make some money out of this..."