General Patton: Warriors 102 Nets 93

During halftime of this game, Gary St. Jean offered two keys for the Warriors against the Nets. The first was to “keep size on Brook Lopez.” The second was to “get up and down — you can’t play halfcourt.”

Do those two keys sound consistent to you? Do they make any sort of sense when paired together?

No, they do not. And fortunately for the Warriors in this game, Mark Jackson understood that. This may have been the best coached game in Jackson’s tenure.

Flash Pastor Jack

Coach Jackson fought a waiting game against this giant Nets team, tired on a road back-to-back, one day after battling the Lakers, and lacking their energizer, Gerald Wallace. Jackson gave the Nets’ behemoth front line of Brook Lopez and Kris Humphries a 16 minute taste of Festus Ezeli and David Lee to start the first and third quarters. Lets call it an artillery shelling. To soften the ground.

And for most of this game, the battle was waged by infantry in the trenches, on the Nets terms.

But in the third quarter, the nature of the combat began to shift. At 6:40, with Marcus Thompson no doubt screaming “Nooooooo!” in the wings, Stephen Curry walked right into a three and banged it home. And the Warriors smelled blood. On the last play of the quarter, Curry got his high pick (thank you), and pulled up for another three. AND ONE. Warriors 74-66.

The Warriors maintained that lead into crunchtime, and at 7:30 of the fourth quarter, General Jackson unleashed his cavalry. His best lineup. David Lee at center, Carl Landry at the four, Klay Thompson at small forward, Stephen Curry and Jarrett Jack in the backcourt.

I could hear all of the Nellie haters groaning as I leaned back in my couch and grinned. General Jackson got it right.

Fighting Brook Lopez

How do you fight against an entrenched and fortified enemy? Do you charge right into them, like Robert E. Lee did at Gettysburg?

No. That is inviting a massacre, which is what Lee got. Why concede the enemy the advantage in battle?

Great generals look for ways to go around the enemy. Like Guderian and Rommel went around the Maginot line. Like Patton’s Seventh Army outflanked the Germans (and Montgomery) in Sicily, storming into Messina via the back door. And like Patton’s Third Army punched through and encircled German divisions at the Battle of the Bulge, and in battle after battle after that on the road to Berlin.

Or go over the enemy. Like the 101st Airborne, dropping into Normandy behind the German Atlantic Wall.

In basketball, what are Brook Lopez and the Nets’ halfcourt defense but an entrenched and fortified enemy? A huge and immobile wall standing between the offense and its goal?

So how do you defeat the Nets? By following Gary St. Jean’s advice and matching up big against Brook Lopez?

Hell no. Not without a healthy Bogut. Why concede the Nets the advantage?

Instead, you do what Mark Jackson did. You put your five best players on the floor, and you beat Brook Lopez by going around and over him.

Over: Stephen Curry walk-up three at 6:40 3rd Q. Can Brook Lopez defend against this? Can any defense?

Around: 7:24 4th Q, Lee in the high post, pulls Lopez up to the foul line. Passes to Landry for the layup.

Over: 2:30 4th Q, Lee pulls Lopez out to the right wing, then buries a jumper in his face.

The Walk-up Three: I’ve been meaning to respond to Marcus Thompson’s recent rant against the Warriors’ frequent use of the walk-up three, and now is the perfect time.

Thompson starts with the premise that walk-up threes are converted at a lower rate than threes created by running offense. I think that’s arrant nonsense.

First of all, running offense creates the risk of turning the ball over. Can you turn the ball over while shooting a walk-up three?

Second, does Thompson have stats to prove his assertion? I think it is highly unlikely to be correct even on a statistical basis. Threes that are created by running offense are sometimes quite difficult, like those curls the Warriors run for Curry and Thompson requiring the shooter to catch moving away from the basket, stop, pivot and shoot. Tough even for great shooters. Sometimes threes are difficult because they are contested. And they are frequently difficult when forced against an expiring shot clock. All of these shots lower Curry’s and Klay’s shooting percentage significantly.

Which means that their shooting percentage on wide-open threes must be far higher than their overall percentage. Is that all due to wide-open catch and shoot threes? I think not.

I’m willing to bet that Curry and Thompson both convert walk-up threes at a percentage higher than their overall percentage from three. Higher than 40%.

But I’ll settle for 40%, and I think Mark Jackson will too. Because 40% from three is easily the BEST shot in basketball. It converts at 1.2 points per possession. Do you really think the Warriors can do better putting on the brakes and running offense?

Here’s a hint. The Miami Heat get 1.12 ppp, and that number includes all of their fastbreak layups. The Warriors? 1.01.

Highest conversion. No risk of turnover. Completely indefensible, by even the greatest defenses in the league. There is no better shot in basketball than a Stephen Curry or Klay Thompson walk-up three.

Bravo, Mark Jackson, for letting it fly. Don Nelson would be proud.

Memo to Fitz: The best shot in basketball, the Curry/Thompson walk-up three, actually misses 50-60% of the time. Try not to erupt in hysterics every time that happens. Thank you.

David Lee: 20-13-6, following a 17-17-3 against Dallas. Seventh straight double double. Played 43 minutes. +16.

Ho hum. Stat padding, obviously. Never puts up numbers in the clutch. Bad defender. Overpaid. Carl Landry should take his minutes. There’s your Adam Lauridsen recap in a nutshell.

At what point do the Lee detractors start to look ridiculous? Does it matter at all that Lee is a total gamer? Never gives less than 100%? Is a great teammate? Does whatever is asked of him? Is one of the most unselfish players in the league? One of the smartest? One of the best passers?

Among the top five power forwards in the entire league in both points and rebounds, every single season?

By the way, for those of you who think David Lee pads his stats, take a look at that rebound off a missed free throw that he simply handed to Klay Thompson last night in garbage time. 2:00 4th Q. Think that happens around the NBA a lot? Everyone knows that’s the big man’s board.

Hey, Klay needed it. It was his only rebound in 39 minutes.

Klay Thompson: It was good to see Klay’s shot dropping. He’s simply not a very good player when it’s not.

Jackson said that the reason Klay Thompson was guarding Deron Williams in the fourth quarter last night was because Curry wasn’t 100%. Hmmm.

I’m sure that was true about Curry, but whom would you rather Thompson have guarded? Joe Johnson? CJ Watson? Marshon Brooks? DWill was the best choice, because so what if he looks for his own shot? Maybe that’s what you want. He didn’t anyway, so this turned out to be a great way to hide Klay.

For most of the game he was hidden on Bogans, and Harrison Barnes guarded Johnson. Another way in which the Nets lack of Wallace hugely helped the Warriors.

When Jackson goes with the Jack-Curry backcourt should Thompson continue to be the choice at small forward, over Barnes? Probably yes. Better handle, better playmaking. You can hide his defense at small forward. So long as he doesn’t forget to rebound.

Stephen Curry: 2:30 4th Q, Curry drives the lane, crashes hard off the Lopezasaurus, then on the way down throws in a left-handed bank.

How great a player would Stephen Curry be without his bum ankle, and Don Nelson as his coach?

Hall of Fame great.

How great will he be with it, and Mark Jackson as his coach?

Watching that play out on a day to day basis defines what it is to be a Warriors fan.

Carl Landry: +12 when playing alongside David Lee in this game. The Warriors best lineup.

Did he take a jumper? I didn’t see it.

Festus Ezeli: -8 to start the game, when he let Lopez sneak around him for layups several times. +5 in the third quarter. This kid learns fast. Very, very fast.

An absolute force on the offensive boards. 7 last game. 5 this game.

Was it me who said he didn’t have a low post game? 10:30 3rd Q: spinning left-handed jump hook in the lane! 7:11 3rd Q: Right-handed jump hook over Lopez from the right box! Hmmm.

Still think he’d be better getting the ball on the move. Speed was his edge against Lopez.

And, according to Mike D’Antoni, post-ups are the least efficient shot in basketball. Stick that in your computer, Kirk.

The Brand: Continues to impress on offense. He’s taking out a patent on that up and under layup against the trees.

I came across some disturbing defensive stats, though. Let’s watch that end of the floor going forward.

Jarret Jack: Did a great job running the team, but I think he’s playing with one hand tied behind his back. I’ve seen him turn down shots, which makes me feel he’s being discouraged from taking them.

I don’t agree with this. Yes, there are better shooters on the floor. But Jack is capable of taking a game over. I’ve seen him do it. And there will come a time, against the better defenses, when that is exactly what the Warriors need him to do.

To have a great offense, your point guard must be dangerous.

Beans: Not quite a Goose Egg, with that one lonely rebound. But close enough, and that’s two in a row. Can a “groin strain” be far behind?

I hate the idea of Beans on the second unit anyway. He’s only useful against front-line centers. Backup centers should be run off the court. Like last night!

Draymond Green: 4 rb in 14 minutes. That steal. That three. More minutes!

Final Thought:

“On the way to Bastogne, we would see Patton along the side of the road waving us on. I don’t know how he got ahead of us all the time, but he did. Patton was right there breaking it up and getting things moving again. He was a relentless man…and a great general. Patton had a theory that the Germans didn’t shoot as well on the run. That’s why he never wanted to stop. The only time he stopped in the field was when he ran out of gas.” — Sgt. John Beck Jr.

I’m headed out of town for the holidays, and won’t be recapping for a couple of weeks.

282 Responses to General Patton: Warriors 102 Nets 93

thanks again, feltmeister. we’ll miss you. bogut or no bogut, the team will be fortunate if they’re .500 when the calendar flips. both Guderian and Patton refined principles they’d learned from Alexander of Macedon and Lee’s greatest commander, Jackson.

when Rush went down, the likely stress point appeared to be Barnes, but if the rookie continues to learn and refine, it could well end up being Thompson. not many teams have dominant centers, so against a number of opponents Ezeli-Lee-Biedrins can function, but wings often define the better teams. with Bogut’s status unresolved, there probably won’t be a consistent reserve unit (the de facto one presently has Lee at center), but Thompson could be well suited as a primary scorer for a second unit.

Two posts from the “Fast Break” blog that pretty much nail what’s going on with the Warriors right now, and from two very different “seats in the house”………..

Couch perspective:

JanG says:
November 22nd, 2012 at 8:45 am
11..
Chris – really captured the mood I wasn’t able to share with anyone as I watched the game from my couch. And you hit it on the head about this bunch when you stated “But in the odd chance that basketball still really is a team game…”. The W’s may not be the most athletic (ie. Lee, Curry, Landry), nor are they the most experienced, nor have they played together for very long, but…what we are seeing is a team without egos, guys who give it all every night, lots of complementary pieces, a willingness to learn, and probably and most important of all, a type of play that reflects the coaches philosophy. We all seem to question MJax for his substitution patterns, play calling, and going ‘small’. I admit I’m one of those nasayers. But the reality is, this team is growing and being shaped as a result of the coaching. And the most gratifying aspect of the season thus far is the fact that they are developing, learning, and improving with every game, win or loss. You can’t complain about progress!

Oracle perspective (and following up on how coaching is impacting this group):

Our Team says:
November 22nd, 2012 at 8:59 am
13..
At the games I keep noticing two Ws assistant coaches who always are intensely following every move, every opposing substitution and matchup. Constantly coaching players, talking to MJ. One is Malone, the other is a short young guy with black hair. These two coaches are so competitive and into the game, I love watching them on the sideline, particularly late. Late Q4 last night we were coming out of a time out on offense.

The short young coach (I need to put a name to the face) is talking to D Lee and Landry in the TO very intently motioning with his hands toward different areas on the court. Lee gets the ball above the ft line, Landry cuts backdoor for a wide open layup. And Lee turns and points to the asst coach. Beautiful play. These coaches are working it. If you’re just focused on the Preacher you’re missing a key part of what’s going on here.

Decisive, FB. Curry especially has a deceptive walk-up three that fools defenders almost every time he lobs it. Shooters this good should shoot most times they feel they have a good shot. Getting them going should be a priority.

RE: REBOUNDING
When the W’s play Denver – I get worried about getting out-rebounded by Faried and company…

What I enjoy about rebounding and the current Warriors team:

Harrison Barnes – has size/athleticism/length/desire to rebound the 3 position well. And when Harrison goes out of the game,…

Jackson can choose to go big. Backup 3/4 Draymond Green can provide size/rebounding at the 3 – and I like watching Green teamed up with an undersized front court of Lee/Landry. Green is also showing he can hit the 3 point shot, post up smaller players, pass, AND defend… Very versatile, useful player at the 3/4 positions…

Also, Festus Ezeli is much more active on the boards than Ekpe Udoh of last season. Even when not securing the rebound, Ezeli has a knack of keeping plays alive – tapping the rebound to teammates.

Lee – is rebounding well but has other rebounders on this team. Landry – is much better rebounding back-up 4 than players from last season (Tyler, etc.).

Biedrins – looks much healthier/happier this season. I don’t cringe as much when he’s substituted in as I did last season. And when Bogut comes back – Hopefully Biedrins is 6 foul back-up Center who is rarely needed.

The Warriors have played good ball the last two games. They are controlling the tempo of the game, and even got to the foul-line more than Dallas and Brooklyn.

They are winning games by playing good defense and outshooting their opponents.

The Warriors got killed in the first quarter with the Nets scoring one easy basket after another inside in the first quarter against our big front court.

Such was offset somwhat by Ezeli’s offensive rebounds. He’s ok on defense, but no Udoh as far as defending. If Thompson had not taken and missed so many shots, the Warriors wouldn’t have been so far behind at the end of the first quarter.

The small line-up works well when all five smalls hit their shots as they did in the fourth quarter. This hasn’t happened very often.

The Warriors obtained more defensive rebounds by hitting a higher percentage of their shots. The Warriors future success depends largely on their keeping balls from being scored, their shooting a good shooting percentage, and staying even getting to the line, not defensive rebounds.

Fitzgerald speaks effusively about the Warriors rebounding against the Nets, not seeming to realize the Nets out-rebounded the Warriors on the offensive glass. D.Green’s four offensive rebounds was very impressive.

The short coach doing a great job is Dave Anman. I hope I spelled his name correctly. A former NY lawyer. He coached under the beat h.s. coach in the U.S- Bob Hurley, St. Anthony’s NJ. Hope he’s the Warriors coach someday.

Keep an eye on Henson of the Bucks. Had 8 offensive rebounds last night.

Faried is averaging 5 offensive rebounds per game. Simply off the chart.
He was drafted much later than Thompson. Did we draft the right guy? Thompson has now shown he can get to the hoop. He now needs to shot that he can hit the open shot with more consistently. Curry’s the best. Biedrins shooting % has pummeled this year.

I’m very biased, but that officiating – didn’t look good to me. The W’s were hacking up a storm – I just didn’t see calls both ways.

I can’t wait to see Lee/Bogut front-court starters and Landry/Ezeli backup front-court starters.

Coach Karl had the Nuggets attack the rim at will against the Landry/Lee tandem – who couldn’t block a shot to save their lives…

And we’d still have seen the offensive outbursts from Lee in the first half and Landry in the 2nd half. I’d just rather pair Lee and Landry with shot-blocking, defense-playing Centers Bogut and Ezeli – when Bogut’s healthy.

Brandon Rush – his athleticism and scoring were sure missed in this game… Especially with Curry and Barnes in early foul trouble and on the W’s bench.

Guards Miller and Lawson – sure did penetrate the paint at will in this game.

Wow, what an ugly game. Denver had a great strategy, though. Poke Thompson in the eye so he was blurry eyed for several minutes then take advantage of the way the refs were calling the game and run up a lead. I felt like the team was walking on ice the second half. Almost everyone was in foul trouble and they had to play soft not to pick up another—but the refs called them anyway. They called anything that looked like a foul. The fourth foul called on Barnes was especially bad—no contact!—but it wasn’t different from others. My favorite moment was when Barnes came back in and made that furious drive in reprisal. No one on Denver, however, had more than three. I can’t believe the game was called consistently, both sides. I also can’t believe any adjustment—others elsewhere are screaming more bigs—would have made any difference. The bigs would just have racked up fouls as well.

The effect was to put two starters on the bench, Curry and Barnes, who were a large part of the Warriors best chance to get back into the game. I assume whatever Curry was doing, or rather not doing, first half was part of the plan, or at least met with the coaches’ approval. It’s not like he can’t scored against Denver. He racked up 36 against them last year.

And it almost worked. They had a lead at the half, then it was time for Curry to step up. But then fouls benched him. I do wonder why they didn’t gamble with Curry and Barnes earlier, with their four fouls. The game was out of hand when they came in, with about 7-8 minutes left, I think.

Really, the Clippers game was poorly called as well, and who knows, it may have worked to the Warriors’ advantage. It took the Clips out of a rhythm. I just hate watching games called like these. The calls limit options on both teams and determine the way they play, often making a game of skill unpredictable and a matter of chance. I hope both are under review, but, as Barnett said, you have to expect them.

I saw the problem as not so much a lack of bigs, but a terrible speed disadvantage on defense. Lawson and Iggy shut down our backcourt, and we couldn’t stay in front of them on the other end. That, and the fact that spread 4 Gallinari couldn’t be guarded by either Barnes, Lee or Landry is what caused all the fouling.

the better coached teams like Den are going to stampede the woeyr defenders ; especially vulnerable is the favored combo of lee-landry-thompson-curry-jack. there’s no one quick and long to play midfielder/plugger in transition d, and the 4-5 are usually looking for offensive boards. last year robinson actually produced some highlight plays defending fast breaks because he has the length and quickness. rush was obviously well suited ; even ezeli could slow opposing breaks better than landry or lee, faster than either and capable of stopping the outlet passes at the point of origin. potentially the best defenders other than ezeli could be barnes, green, bazemore, but gaining experience is essential for them to get there.

(In reply to Satchel, the previous post. I assume you meant the Denver game, and I’ll stick this here.)

“I don’t know what Curry was being asked to do in the first half, so clarify what you meant.”

Well, I don’t either, and if there was a system, I’m not sure what it was. But obviously he was holding back trying to get the rest of the team involved. This is what Nash and the other great point guards do.

But I don’t think that works for him or makes best use of his talents. He lacks the strong penetrating moves of Rondo or even Nash that might make control offense work, where he can drive and shoot or dish off. But I’m not sure he has the offense to make such a plan work, either. Rondo had Pierce and Allen and Garnett to pass, powerful players who can also shoot outside. When Lee is shut down, he doesn’t have many options, not against a strong defensive team.

If the goal is to get the offense going, the plan should be to get their top offensive player involved first half—Curry.

My take on Curry is that he plays best when he is fully involved and is the center of the team, when his special skills of shooting and running the ball are tapped. This doesn’t mean he is selfish, though, because at the center his goal is to get the whole team involved. And I think it may simply be true, that when holding back, he becomes inattentive. I become inattentive myself in that kind of offense.

UPDATE: Bogut will return to practice Monday and could return to game action next. But that comes with a strong caution. There is no guarantee Bogut will even participate fully in practice on Monday. There is uncertainty over whether he is ready for that. Even if he is, whether he plays Thursday vs. Denver or Saturday vs. Indiana still depends on how his ankle responds/feels.

“We just won’t know until he goes through it,” said one Warriors source. “He could return Saturday or he could return two weeks after that. We just don’t know yet.”

True small ball last night in the fourth quarter, with Green at the four, Landry at center, Barnes 3, Curry-Jack back court. And that lineup proved dominant against the huge TWolves frontline. +10.

Green was a revelation on Kevin Love, and is set to become a major part of the rotation. On offense, lovely to see him spread the floor all the way out to the three point line. An actual spread four, whadya know?

Small lineup – and a nice run. Barnes and Green both rebound well. Mark Jackson sure likes to play small ball in the 4th quarter. With Bogut coming back soon, Jackson will have so many options. Now – if the owner can only replace BRush’s roster spot…

I agree with your take on Curry. He thrives as the center of the action and he doesn’t have the ability to get players off, without being an extreme threat offensively himself. He has to be fully engaged and of course, with Monta as his backcourt mate, he couldn’t be the center of action in the offense. People started to interpret his passive play and his careless mistakes as evidence that he was mostly just a spot up shooter. His temperament and his athletic limitations, require him to be engaged and his activity level have to always be at top levels for him to be effective. He’s mediocre when he plays casually.
His rookie year, he was in a system and he had the role to play at an elite level. His “light” was on, as I described in the Brooklyn post. I had seen it come back on in a couple of the past 4 games. He’s just a different player when he’s fully engaged like that.
If I were coach Jackson, I would encourage and design early game transition threes for Curry. With Curry a threat from deep, his game opens up enormously. If he feels the green light early and often, his ability to penetrate is greatly enhanced and he becomes a playmaker and more truly a point guard. Like you said rgg, unlike Nash, Rondo, Paul and DWill, he can’t penetrate at will and make these plays for others until he has the freedom that comes from being a threat himself.

Re: #20
Felt, you have to be loving Draymond. A stretch 4 that can rebound, defend the post AND defend perimeter threes and twos nearly as well as anyone else on the team. At the Brooklyn game, I saw him backing Childress into the paint on 3 straight possessions. I don’t remember him being successful in converting, but I think free throws and a pass out to the perimeter for a good shot did occur. The point I’m making, is along with these other “goods” he might have a post game too – at least when he’s covered by a perimeter defender.

Shocking that the Warriors failed to disclose this, isn’t it? No, it’s not, it’s simply how Lacob has operated since he took over the franchise. There were season tickets and merchandise to sell.

This is a surgery that typically takes a full year to recover from, so one has to wonder why the Warriors are trying to play Bogut at all this season, let alone a mere six months afterward. The purpose of microfracture surgery is to regrow cartilage — isn’t there a risk of destroying that new growth by playing too soon?

One other question comes to mind: Why wasn’t the state of Bogut’s ankle cartilage — as revealed by the FIRST surgery — discoverable by the Warriors prior to the trade? Did they do ANY due diligence?

Of course, W’s got REAL lucky with coin toss/lottery, but so did Mark Jackson/W’s when they won on the road in Minnesota near the end of the season.

Milwaukee didn’t even make the Eastern Conference playoffs last season. Monta Ellis is likely considering opting out of his contract/Milwaukee at the end of the season. Ekpe Udoh is caught up in a now crowded frontcourt of similar players. Warrior’s record in the tough West 8-6 is better than Milwaukee’s record in the cupcake East 6-5.

This is wrong on so many levels it is shocking. One can only come up with a financial objective as a reason to perpetrate this fraud. And Bogut just goes along with the scam. I would imagine that many season ticket holders could come up with small lawsuits to charge the warriors with fraud and I think would win the case.

And Bogut is willing to risk further injury to a very serious injury to keep the scam going… And some Doctor plays along as well. Bogut is the guy who brought in a jar of elbow fragments to a Milwaukee press conference to prove to the press that he was not a malingerer. The thought now, of Bogut wincing in pain as he was trying to play is crazy stupid. For what??? For who???

And yet – there are what might have beens – at so many levels as well. What if they fessed up as soon as they knew… This season is off to a promising start and the trio of rookies are really making it fun. There has been a culture change and defense and rebounding is improved and making a difference. The outcry would have passed during the off season and they would still have their dignity.

And where will the nba be in all this. They really can’t have teams lying to sell tickets…

And of course – Feltbot – right all along on so many issues and right on this one again… Why now???? Because Bogut needs an out..

Grant Hill beat him to it. Hill also had other issues, including a post-surgery staph infection that almost killed him.

Lots of players have had MF surgery on their knees, with mixed results. For example, it wasn’t enough for Greg Oden but it worked out for Amar’e Stoudemire.

If Bogut and his docs were OK with him playing at all early in the season, maybe his condition isn’t too bad. But you’re right, the prognosis for MF surgery is not at all the same as for a broken bone.

I suspect Bogut didn’t intend to mention the details of his surgery, that it just slipped out during the interview. Whatever. For fans the issue is the same, it’s just a matter of degree. It’s going to be some time before Bogut is playing at a high level. We knew that. Now it looks likely to be a longer time than we had thought. Same story, different timetable.

Re a “coverup,” that’s a pretty damning charge, and there really isn’t much hope that a class action fraud suit would win. Teams don’t guarantee that certain players will play, and they’re not legally required to spell out the nature of every player’s injury. It certainly feels like the Ws misled fans, but the only way to make them pay for that would be to skip games.

It’s probably also worth keeping in mind that a business manager is legally required to serve the business first and foremost. In this case, one of the driving reasons for the trade was to move Monta for something/anything of value. When the deal came down Monta’s sexual harassment lawsuit was still pending. He had (still has) the widespread reputation for being bad for teamwork. He IS a dominating player, and any team he’s on is going to be Monta’s team – the Warriors couldn’t be perceptibly different without swapping him for someone else, and they needed to look perceptibly different to keep fans interested.

If the ONLY consideration was competitiveness, maybe it wasn’t a good trade. But that’s unrealistic. There were business reasons to dump Monta that were entirely independent of what the team got in return. That they got a chance (90%? 10%?) for a Bogut in return was just icing on the cake, businesswise.

I really disagree with the decision to withhold information regarding the seriousness (of the word “Microfracture”) of Andrew Bogut’s injury to the fans. This decision was likely made at the highest level.

PB, I agree. “Bogut is trying to be ready for game 1” is nowhere near the same message to fans as “Bogut had microfracture surgery.”

But the difference between “He’s trying to be ready for game 1” and “We don’t know precisely what we’re getting back for Monta” is less clear-cut. The team was plainly taking a risk no matter what kind of surgery Bogut had, and they did publicly acknowledge that.

If Lacob misled his investors about Bogut’s prospects for recovery, they could probably claim he mis-stated the value of a company asset. But there would be no reason to sue if they weren’t harmed financially. Last time I looked, the team had a good record, fans were filling Oracle – and Bogut was still expected to return sometime this year.

W’s fans have been mislead thanks to a slip up in an interview with Andrew Bogut months later. It’s just not great policy to hide pertinent information from fans – and then THE INFORMATION GETS OUT… The organization should talk honestly about an injury (why lie?) – and we move on.

disclosure from folks like the lacobites is always done from a cost vs. benefit perspective. they’re obliged to report injuries but details of an individual’s medical care are confidential, as they should be. of course it’s much easier to explain the complications now that the team has moderate success without bogut. over the summer and pre-season their objective was encouraging confidence in the reconfigured roster, and with anything they do and say we need to remember the unabbreviated form of ‘con game’.

With you hyping Moe so much, I’m actually looking “forward” to seeing the kid play more now! Haha! He’s young and gifted athletically/defensively/rebounding, and if he can only develop his shot… Repeated 20 times in each and every draft. That’s what mid-to-late-round draft picks all have in common… question marks.

For now? There’s absolutely no question. I’ll take Harrison Barnes with all his faults.

What happened to all those many fans – clamoring for the W’s to trade down in the draft to select “sure thing talent” in Royce White???

Royce can be had cheap right now! Real cheap! Actually, I might want to acquire him now. White can play at all home games, and road games in driving distance to Sacramento, Portland, Phoenix, and Los Angeles (Lakers/Clips)!

If the Warriors did not make the trade, the Warriors would have had Curry, Thompson, Ellis, Udoh, Rush, D.Lee, Landry, Jack, Jenkins, and Biedrins, the 35th pick of th draft to start the season, and no Jefferson and Bogut. I’m assuming we would not have had our lottery pick in the first round.

That roster would have allowed for the Warriors to now trade and exceed what the Warriors received in the draft. Do you think that nucleus, even without Rush, would not have been 2 games over .500%? That roster would have allowed for the Warriors to now trade and exceed what the Warriors received in the draft. And, even though Barnes is playing well, I still think the Warriors could have traded down for two future starters.

If one just looks at the trade at face value, it was a terrible trade. At best, the Warriors will have Bogut playing sparingly over the next two years, as well as Jefferson’s bloated contract. And the Ezeli-Biedrins center tandem does not cut it, especially since neither is on the court very much. Ezeli is a good back-up that may have been available with 35th pick. A Udoh-Ezeli front court would have been dynamite.

Without further trades, the Warriors over the next year,the Warriors are left in purgatory, with the possibility of making the play-offs if they incur no further injuries, but not going very far in the play-offs. But, I guess. as Warriors fans, with the possibility of making the play-offs, there is more hope then in prior years.

Frank, playing Lee, Landry and Ezeli at the same time, as you suggested in your earlier post, would mean one less wing defender. Which of those guys would you want guarding a SF like Iguodala? I think the answer is “none of the above.” Barnes, Rush and Green can all do better.

A selection of Ezeli/Udoh/Biedrins at center is a choice of evils. None of them is as complete and well-rounded a player as a healthy Bogut. While it remains to be seen whether even Bogut can someday again play like Bogut, the upside potential for the team is better with him than without him.

Re your take on small-ball, I agree it’s not always going to work. Nelson’s record against the Lackers is compelling evidence of that. But as a situational tactic, sometimes against some lineups, it absolutely does pay off sometimes. Nelson’s record with the Warriors is evidence of that too. What we saw in the Minnesota game was more evidence that small-ball can win. The teams were playing even-up until the Ws went small.

Frank, none of us can really say what the trade possibilities were at mid-season last year, or what they might be if the team stayed pat and waited to re-charge the roster. but you should consider the possibility that ellis doesn’t have huge market value (contract, no defense, position with large supply of replacements) and many teams might consider udoh too much a specialist to get big minutes on the floor. the lacobites themselves created a problem by the way they chose to market ellis, solely looking at potential income and ignoring what it might do to his attitude, encouraging alpha behaviour from an individual who lacks the complete alpha hardwiring, and to the team, setting up a hyped star who is inattentive or passive when the opponents have the ball.

i.m.h.o., watching the development of the three drafted rookies (would like to see bazemore too if the preacher would only oblige) is far more diverting than seeing the same old from the ellis-curry back court.

The Lakers are going after Raja Bell. I don’t know how much he has left or what to make of his stats at Utah, but he’s a vet I wouldn’t have minded the Warriors taking a chance on. He would have provide all kinds of options at SG, both on offense and defense. He also would have fit in with the guys well and given them some veteran confidence and experience.

We’ve all heard about crazy lawsuits and 2011 was no exception when it came to the filing of frivolous – even ridiculous – lawsuits.

A lawsuit by a kidnapper against his victims for not helping him evade police tops the U.S. Chamber of Commerce’s Institute for Legal Reform’s (ILR) survey of the Top Ten Most Ridiculous Lawsuits of 2011, released today.

“While these lawsuits vary from the outrageous to the humorous, abusive litigation is hardly a laughing matter,” said ILR President Lisa Rickard. “ILR’s annual poll of ridiculous lawsuits helps to remind us that abusive lawsuits affect real people and real businesses, and can have harmful results to lives, jobs, and even our economic growth.”

ILR announced the top ten vote-getters from among those chosen throughout the year by visitors to the FacesOfLawsuitAbuse.org website. The lawsuits were selected from those featured in the website’s monthly polls for 2011. The Faces of Lawsuit Abuse campaign is ILR’s public awareness effort created to highlight the impact of abusive lawsuits on small businesses, communities, and individuals.

The top ten Most Ridiculous Lawsuits of 2011 are:

•Convict sues couple he kidnapped for not helping him evade police

•Man illegally brings gun into bar, gets injured in a fight, then sues bar for not searching him for a weapon

•Young adults sue mother for sending cards without gifts and playing favorites

•Woman disagrees with store over 80-cent refund, sues for $5 million

•Mom files suit against exclusive preschool over child’s college prospects

•Man suing for age discrimination says judge in his case is too old

•Obese man sues burger joint over tight squeeze in booths

•Woman sues over movie trailer; says not enough driving in “Drive”

•Passenger’s lawsuit says cruise ship went too fast and swayed from side to side

One thing Klay, our Monta replacement, isn’t doing is making assists. He’s averaging about 2 a game. Monta averages 6 his last three years.

Klay is driving more this year, but I don’t see him looking to dish. Nor does he look when passed to in the backcourt. I assume, however, he’s doing what he’s been told. I wouldn’t mind seeing more passing in general and more assists, from Barnes and others. It would open up the offense more—especially Curry, who isn’t getting many good looks first half.

nothing in barnes’ resume suggests that he is adept at making plays for his ‘mates — turnovers exceeded quite modest, nearly invisible, assist numbers in college, and coincidentally the tiny sample from the summer exhibitions showed nearly identical averages. he’s o.k. moving the ball in the open court, and can do so with alacrity, which really isn’t the same thing. even more so than barnes, when the ball is passed to landry, the expected outcome if the ball is passed to him is not another pass for an assist.

when jack is on the floor, he’s consistently given the lead guard role. we all know that curry’s true excellence as a playmaker comes in the open court, which the coaches won’t fully embrace, and probably won’t with the huge priority given to the boards. if bogut can play, he’ll improve the ball movement, but not necessarily mean more playmaking from the wings, but better shots for curry and the wings.

Moto, Barnes resume, as you adeptly point out, is very short. But so far he has shown the willingness to work hard to improve his rebounding (Remember his quote saying that he actually needed to put a body on someone to rebound?) and it’s paying off for the Warriors. He’s also become more aggressive driving to the basket and his decision making has been pretty good. If the Jackson asks him to change his game to distribute, I’m sure he’ll start thinking that way.

I really like this guy. Feltbot said we didn’t have a true SG. Now we’d have one. His situation is complicated. Utah is going to let him go, but it’s a matter of how that will be done. I think they’re ready for a buyout, at $3.5m, which means we could get him cheaper?

Advantages:

He’s a superior perimeter defender, and could spell Klay when we need one. He would also make possible all kinds of lineups, if someone goes down, if we’re facing tough defensive teams—or even loaded offensive teams.

He could sub in for Klay easily, cutting his load and expectations.

He would add offense to the second unit. He shot 39% on 3s and averages 40% career.

He played years for D’Antoni and could play up tempo, if the Warriors ever got around to that. All his stats are better during this time, btw, assists and shooting.

He would provide a true veteran competitor, tough and committed, one with playoff experience.

(4) Disabled Player Exception. A team may replace a player who suffers a season-ending injury with one player making up to 50% of the injured player’s current salary, up to a maximum of the average player salary. [I don’t understand this.] The Disabled Player Exception is available in the following circumstances:

(a) If the player is injured between July 1 and November 30 and is determined to be out for that season, the team has 45 days to use the Exception; or

(b) If the player is injured between December 1 and June 30 and is determined to be out for the subsequent season, the team has until the following October 1 to use the Exception.

A front court of D.Green, D.Lee and Landry all play close to the basket since the Warriors go going small. They make no attempt to guard the perimeter. Having Ezeli, D. Lee and Landry, would give the Warriors more offense, and allow the Warriors to guard the perimeter more then they presently do

Does anyone really argue that if Bogut does not contribute much over the next two years, that the Warriors would have been better off having Ellis and Udoh, rather then Bogut and Jefferson?

The Warriors were second in the NBA in defense when Udoh started his last eight games before being traded. The Warriors would not be ranked second if Bogut was playing. And the Warriors would be scoring more with Ellis on the team then they do now. If Rush was still on the team we would be ok, but he isn’t.

Harkless has played better than Barnes on defense.He’s blocked 1 shot per game to Barnes .09, and Harkless is making slightly more steals playing only two-thirds the amount of playing time than Barnes.

Both are shooting an eff. FG% of 53%, which is quite good. Barnes has advantage over Harkless getting to the foul line and shooting well from the foul-line. I think Harkless shot well from the foul line playing at St. John’s.

If they played equal amount of time their respective defensive rebounds would be about the same, Barnes is doing a good job on the defensive glass mainly to the Warriors not running. On the offensive glass, there is no comparison. As Harkless averages in 15.5 minutes of play, 1.6 offensive rebounds to Barnes .9 in 28 minutes of play.

I agree – In the mid-to-late first round, best available player. Lot’s of teams passed on Latrell or Leonard. Because there’s a failure rate on athletic defenders/rebounders guys who never ever develop a shot (say McGuire).

Question – if Don Nelson or Greg Popovich draft #7 in the 2012 NBA draft, do they REALLY pass on SF Harrison Barnes? When you play poker with Willie and Nellie in Maui – don’t forget to ask for me!

Why hasn’t an NBA team hired you? I have not seen 1 expert ever say Harkless has the potential to be great. If he did he wouldn’t have fallen so far in the draft. You failed to mention is FT% a whopping 30%. That looks like Biedrins 2.0 On top of that he had 1 game with 4 blocks he also has 5 games with ZERO blocks. Seems like that one game was a fluke. If he was so good he would be getting more minutes. He is on a lottery team and he can’t even get minutes. Hate to burst your bubble but Jerry West knows a lot more than you.

PB – great update. It would be interesting to know when was the last time GSW were in first place and for how long. My guess is best chance an early season start during run TMC… and probably earlier than that for this long into season…. I do seem to remember a few years back they ran off a few victories to start the season before the inevitable….

I’d read that the W’s were 8-6 in 2007, but not likely in first place!

And not an easy schedule. And No Brandon Rush/little Andrew Bogut. And not shooting well (Thompson/Curry/Lee). And starting 2 rookies with another rookie firmly in the rotation – with all three rookies having finished games. And out-rebounding most opponents. With a 2nd year inexperienced head coach.

When Andrew Bogut comes back and the rookies get good experience, this team should only get better. Because – I know Curry/Thompson/and Lee – can shoot…

PB, I agree. Companies who make a practice of misleading customers tend not to have long-term relationships with them.

I work in marketing. New clients sometimes ask me to come up with a line of bullshit. It’s what some think marketing people do. Fluff, spin, hype, sure. Lie/distort/mislead? Nope. Regardless of what acting sleazy costs you from a personal standpoint, if you make customers feel ripped off you’ll lose them. You might get one quick sale, but overall it’s bad for business. Only rookies do it.

Lacob says he’s started many companies. I don’t know about that, but I do know this: he is a rank amateur at PR and marketing.

In Lacob’s defense, I think he traded Ellis primarily to get rid of a PR liability, and that is simply not something he could go public with. He had to come up with some acceptable justification for the trade: Bogut had to be GREAT. That message isn’t compatible with “microfracture surgery.” A tough situation to spin, for sure. Not sure how I would have done it.

Lacob didn’t trade ellis for a pr problem. His own son was sexually accused and nothing came of it. No big deal. Lacob has always coveted a center and wanted to make a “splash” by his own admission from day one. A Kevin Garnett type of deal… This was his version.

The warriors could easily have tanked another way and traded ellis for something of value. They are now saddled with 2 big contracts and further delayed their arrival. I must admit other than this mistake they are doing well. But it sort of reminds me of, “Other than that Mrs. Lincoln – how was the play?”

a. The fact that there wasn’t a lot of noise about either case does not mean they were no big deal. It means Lacob paid huge money to make the cases go away quietly. They were both settled out of court with confidentiality agreements.

b. The single story I read about Kirk L. was that he was accused of inappropriately inviting Warriors girls to a party. Ellis’s accuser received hundreds of texts and some pix of his privates from him. She was also fired by the Warriors after she complained. No comparison.

c. Monta is not Joe’s son.

d. It’s quite possible that getting rid of Monta was part of the Warriors’ settlement agreement with his accuser. I understand it’s not an unusual request in situations like that. If she asked for it, there’s no doubt Lacob would have agreed. That’s all speculation, of course. But I think Lacob felt lucky to get anything for Monta. It’s why he settled for a busted-up player who may never recover 100%.

WH –
a) who says it was a large sum? you have no idea. What was the problem with the office worker – not raped – no child out of wedlock. Text messages – no big deal – you don’t think she didn’t like the attention and responded positively to those texts… Warriors fired her – they could not have been too worried. Some minor sexual harassment – no big deal.
b) this stuff is commonplace in sports – google top 20 illegitimate fathers in sports –right that is the point – no bid deal on the kirk thing either.
c) what about Mark Jackson – way worse
d)Are you kidding? Lacob called the deal transformational… It was his Kevin Garnett deal…. And if you heard him talk about it, this was not some pr ploy – he was drinking the koolaid.

White Hat, there are few Warriors fans (outside of this blog) who wouldn’t make that trade again this very minute knowing that the end result was Harrison Barnes and Festus Ezeli, not to mention being out from under a situation of having to pay Monta what he’ll be asking for in a new contract (max money equaling LOTS of millions of dollars) after this season.

No, the Warriors didn’t need Bogut to be “GREAT”. This was a risk/reward trade that has now reached the point of being a success regardless given their draft of 2012. They were obviously hoping that Bogut would be playing regularly by now, but even if he only comes back as half the player he was before the injury I think they (and most fans) would be satisfied given the overall outlook for this team in the future.

Bogut’s contract expires after next season so he’s not going to be a monetary burden for the team for very long if his playing days are numbered due to this injury. And in the meantime they have that guy Festus to help fill in the minutes.

Monta a “PR liability”? Hardly. Certainly no more than Mark Jackson has been after his personal issues turned up on the 6 o’clock news. Fans don’t care about that crap, it’s all about wins and losses and posterizing dunks by their favorite players.

And as for the idea that the Warriors knew that Bogut would need microfracture surgery when the trade was made? No team makes a trade for an injured player without talking to the other team’s doctors and evaluating all medical information such as x-rays and MRI’s. It wasn’t until they (Ferkel) went in to do what was ostensibly a clean-up procedure to remove loose bone fragments that they found other issues and decided to perform the microfracture surgery.

Those specific medical details were never made public but most if not all teams are extremely secretive when it comes to releasing medical information on their players. And do the fans really care about those specifics as long as the player is back playing when the team says he will?

Dr. Ferkel is the one who performed the surgery and estimated a 6 month recovery period for Bogut. Dr. Ferkel is highly renowned http://www.scoi.com/doctors/richard-ferkel.php and doesn’t work for the Warriors any more than Dr. James Andrews, who performed Tommy John surgery on Brian Wilson, works for the Giants. If Ferkel said 6 months it’s because that was his opinion as a medical expert and had nothing to do with anything the Warriors wanted to hear from any PR standpoint. And guess what? Bogut did begin the season in the Warriors starting lineup and played a handful of games before deciding that his ankle wasn’t responding the way he had hoped it would.

In the end it is what it is. The Warriors are one of the youngest teams in the league with a potentially great nucleus of young players to build around in the future. That future may see Bogut return and contribute significantly to the team’s success or never play another minute in the NBA. Either way this is one trade the Warriors will never regret making, nor should they.

– Right. I said there was no public info on either settlement. Use your head about the amount. The victim had Lacob’s balls in a vise.

“No big deal.”

– Sexual harassment is a form of workplace bullying. It is disgusting and it is a criminal offense. Firing the victim of sexual harassment is absolutely a BFD. Read the news. Talk to a female or an attorney.

“Jackson was far worse.”

– No one has accused Jackson of a crime, so far. He was the target of an extortion attempt. He might have paid for sex, and that could still come out in court, but so far he’s “the victim.” He was sleazy and stupid. Now he’s not the PR asset Lacob hoped he was hiring. But he’s not accused of a crime.

“Fans don’t care about that crap.”

– Fans don’t make trade decisions. Lacob absolutely does care about that crap. He’s running a family entertainment business, and he’s trying to get politicians and the public to give him a $billion waterfront arena. Get real.

I didn’t say the trade was a bad one, or that the Ws weren’t better this year than last. I am saying that as a business manager, I’d have marched Ellis to a catapult and launched him out of town ASAP – and that’s precisely what Lacob did.

Remember, in return for the team’s best player + another good player + $8M in cap room, the team got a player they didn’t want (S Jax) and a guy with a potentially career-ending injury. After that they made other moves that got them the decent team they’re playing today. They came up roses. But the trade itself didn’t do that for them.

getting back to the topic of this thread, Brooklyn is 6-1 at home, and has a much better record with g.wallace playing than when he’s out. so they had two strikes against them when they came into oaktown. there’s a rematch in Brooklyn later this month.

John Hollinger
Golden State is a playoff contender
“Brandon Rush won’t be back but Andrew Bogut should be; he’ll be a major upgrade on Festus Ezeli and banish the human free throw virus formerly known as Andris Biedrins back to the bench. Also, Klay Thompson will probably make a shot at some point this season, which would boost an underperforming offense. All told, all signs point to the Warriors being a very viable playoff contender, especially if clubs like Utah and Minnesota keep scuffling.”

As it turns out, Warriors center Andrew Bogut did have microfracture surgery on his left ankle in April. But, according to team sources, it’s not the same as the alarming procedure we learned about through the likes of Penny Hardaway, Chris Webber and Greg Oden.

Well, it’s the same surgery. Just not the same situation.

“Some people go in for microfracture surgery. This wasn’t that,” one source said pointing out that players who are experiencing chronic and degenerative problems turn to microfracture surgery.

Bogut, on the other hand, went in to get his left ankle cleaned out of scar tissue and bone fragments. When Dr. Richard Ferkel was inside, he noticed a “minor” cartilage issue and he addressed it with a form of microfracture surgery. The major part of the surgery, the source said, was cleaning out the debris.

The important thing, another source said, is the microfracture surgery part of the procedure was accounted for when Ferkel gave the Warriors his timetable for Bogut’s return.

Even though Golden State failed to mention the microfracture part — probably because the words “microfracture surgery” comes with a stigma they didn’t want out there — and even though the Warriors initially said Bogut would be out for three months, nothing has changed from what Ferkel said.

He was given the OK to test out his ankle after 6 months (which put him back to practice on Oct. 27). He was to be limited when he came back, hence the minutes limit and the prohibition of back-to-back sets. The rest would be determined by how his ankle responded and how he felt.

When Bogut decided to shut it down earlier this month, everything really shifted to “he’ll be back when he’s back” mode. Now, Warriors officials are avoiding any timetables. Several in the organization were hopeful Bogut would keep playing at a limited capacity because he still gave the Warriors something. But once he pulled back, they had no choice but to exercise patience.

As I previously reported, Golden State management was expecting for Bogut to be out until December even though the initial evaluation timeline given was 7 to 10 days. And nobody would be shocked if he didn’t return until 2013. Bogut suggested as much today when he told reporters he wasn’t close to ready.

Bottom line: Bogut’s ankle was kind of a mess when Ferkel went in; the doc knew all along it would take a long time; and the Warriors (and Bogut) were in denial — at least aggressively hopeful — that Ferkel was being conservative. He wasn’t.

Note the excuses Thompson’s “sources” make for the Warriors’ behavior in this piece. They didn’t cover up Bogut’s micro fracture surgery because 1) it wasn’t INTENDED to be micro fracture surgery, and 2) the recovery timetable given was accurate anyway.

From Wikipedia:
“In October 2005, young star Amar’e Stoudemire of the NBA’s Phoenix Suns underwent one of the highest-profile microfracture surgeries to date. He returned to the court in March 2006 and initially appeared to have made a full recovery, but subsequently started feeling stiffness in both knees (his right knee had been overcompensating for the injured left knee). He and the team doctor decided he needed more time to rehab and he did not return until the 2006-2007 NBA season.[17] During the 2006-2007 season, Stoudemire returned to form, averaging 20.4 points and 9.6 rebounds per game while playing in all 82 regular-season games and the 2007 NBA All-Star Game. His recent success has brought positive publicity to the procedure, further distancing it from a previous reputation as a possible “career death sentence” in the sports world, though he was one of the youngest of the aforementioned players to undergo the surgery.[18]”

I’d have more respect for the W’s ownership had they just come out in April and say that they had bad news… I could then adjust my expectations approriately. But no – they pumped up his return and now released the info after a decent start…

Ann talks about the Warriors and their bad luck past, which certainly was again brought to mind by BRush’s injury, but I can’t stop feeling that things are starting to change, and for the better, even after soaking in this latest development with Bogut.

I can’t help but think of how KThompson was still available at #11 when the Warriors drafted. If there was a 2011 draft do-over tomorrow the Warriors wouldn’t be able to even sniff Klay with their pick.

Or how they won that coin flip with Toronto and then had the ping pong balls bounce in their favor, all ensuring their #7 pick in the 2012 draft wouldn’t be lost to Utah.

Or how HBarnes (who I believe is going to turn into a really good player) was still there when the Warriors used that pick.

Or how FEzeli was still hangin’ around when the Dubs picked 30th.

And even Bogut, who at 50% of his full capabilities is still the best center the Warriors have suited up in who-knows-how-many decades, and IMO, even potentially having to eventually cope with a bum wheel for the duration, will still make the Ellis trade a good one for GSW in the long run (considering that trade also netted them Barnes and Ezeli).

No, I kinda like the “vibes” emanating from GSW headquarters in recent times. I thought the Giants were “cursed” for sure when they blew that 5-0 7th inning lead only 9 outs away from their first SF World Championship back in 2002. Heck, what else could explain going over 40 years without winning a title, a period that eventually would exceed 50 years.

But then? Curse? Those “vibes” are telling me the Warriors have a decent chance of being next-in-line when it comes to sports exorcisms.

“Fans don’t make trade decisions. Lacob absolutely does care about that crap. He’s running a family entertainment business, and he’s trying to get politicians and the public to give him a $billion waterfront arena. Get real.”

WH, fans don make trade decisions but they definitely make decisions on whether or not to buy tickets for games. And those decisions are based on what? They’re largely based on the quality of the product (wins/losses) and appeal of the players performing (posterizing dunks). If your customers (fans) are happy ownership is happy, in any business, not to mention any corporate bigwigs/politicians that are tagging along for good measure.

A playoff position and lots of good young players vs some “Days of Our Lives” soap opera going on far off in the background? Proof is in the pudding, as they say. While Monta is gone Mark Jackson isn’t, and when was the last time you’ve heard or read anything about Jackson’s personal life? Exactly. And when was the last time you heard or read any fan talk/complain about Jackson on any topic other than his coaching acumen? Exactly.

I laughed to myself when you stated months ago that Jackson’s personal life was going to become this big distraction for the team and management and would eventually lead to Jackson being replaced this season. This (distraction) was never going to happen and here’s why. Mark Jackson worked for the media and has many friends at ESPN, YES Network, etc. He’s also well liked around the league by players and coaches. We’re not talking some Barry Bonds type here, someone that the media/league is out to get. The only way this was going to be a distraction was through the media “going after Jackson”. This was never going to happen.

So unless The Reverend has more “skeletons in his closet” that has yet to surface this case is closed, for all practical purposes. And as always has been the case, and never anything more, if MJ is fired/replaced it’ll be about those wins and losses. Get real.

——————————————

“I didn’t say the trade was a bad one, or that the Ws weren’t better this year than last. I am saying that as a business manager, I’d have marched Ellis to a catapult and launched him out of town ASAP – and that’s precisely what Lacob did.

Remember, in return for the team’s best player + another good player + $8M in cap room, the team got a player they didn’t want (S Jax) and a guy with a potentially career-ending injury. After that they made other moves that got them the decent team they’re playing today. They came up roses. But the trade itself didn’t do that for them.”

The Warriors had one big trade chip to use in trying to improve the team significantly in the future, and that trade chip was Monta.

Lacob could never have traded (Monta) for Bogut if Bogut was healthy at the time so there was the risk/reward of the move. If Bogut eventually regains his health it’s a great trade, but even if he doesn’t the trade still allowed Curry to display his PG potential while opening up major minutes for Klay Thompson, a much younger and more affordable player. The Warriors were not going to pay Monta the dollars he was going to soon want, the other major reason for the trade. Two birds (or is it three or four?) with one stone, voila.

“After that they made other moves that got them the decent team they’re playing today. They came up roses. But the trade itself didn’t do that for them.”

The trade itself did EVERYTHING for them. It weakened the team short term which led to keeping their first round pick (HBarnes) and it also brought them the Spurs pick which became FEzeli. Throw in a coin toss and some fortunate slippage of players in the draft and it’s all right there in black and white. No trade = many years of mediocrity still to come, and THAT’S a soap opera most, if not all, fans would have a huge problem with.

I don’t get what you’re trying to say, Steve. Nobody asked fans if they wanted the Monta trade. Lacob made the deal and announced it. While he’s been pitching it as a move to make the team more competitive, well, it hasn’t improved the team. It couldn’t possibly.

As I said, the FO did a good job of improving the team this summer. But not because Monta is gone, or because Bogut and SJax are here. They’re not here.

Right here right now this minute, we got a total of 2 busted players and 1 draft pick for Monta and Udoh. I don’t get how you could think otherwise, but whatever, that’s OK.

After the Monta trade the team made a lot of moves that made them better. Those steps improved the team. Many of them were driven by the Ellis trade, but the team didn’t have to improve the way they did. For example, if they hadn’t made the Ellis deal they could have used KBrown’s expiring contract to buy draft picks or hire more vets instead. Udoh and DWright were tradeable. Landry would still have been a free agent.

It’s quite possible the Ws would have an even better team than they have now. Among other things, they’d have Monta, and NOT have Jefferson wasting cap space. Monta had to leave. He was dumped. It seems obvious to me. Whatever.

Re Jackson, he is clearly not the PR asset Lacob wanted, and I don’t think he actually coaches either. I am very surprised he’s still with the team. But let’s see what happens. When his ex-girlfriend’s case comes up that whole mess will be back in the news.

Since Andrew Bogut is most likely out for the ENTIRE 2012/13 season, perhaps he’ll be ready to play in the 2013/14 season. As with Stoudamire’s knee microfracture, 6 months was not enough time, but Amare did come back strong the following season.

The 2013/14 season will be Bogut’s audition tape to the rest of the NBA for his Free Agency in 2014.

WH, I guess I don’t understand. If the Warriors don’t trade Ellis (even Udoh) last year, they easily win enough games to lose the #7 pick to Utah. I don’t see any way around that conclusion. I also see no indication you could have traded either/both Ellis and/or Udoh for the #7 pick or better in last year’s draft. Ellis and Udoh did not have sufficient value around the League to get more than an injured center + a high cost SF in which only one or two contenders would have an interest. Instead, by trading Ellis and Udoh, we end up with Barnes and Ezeli. You may value Ellis and Udoh much more highly than I do, but ignoring that, do you agree with my above analysis?

Well, yeah, sorta. But the decision to tank the season was made independently of the decision to dump Monta. It was a logical decision, it was facilitated by having no Monta, but it wasn’t part of the Monta/Bogut deal. The team could just as easily have tried to win. Or they could have kept Monta and still tried to lose.

Let’s just call it like it is. Monta had one supreme flaw…his size as a scoring 2 guard. If he was big enough and skilled enough to be an actual complement Curry on the defensive end he would still be around. The sexual harrassment was the final straw, and made it easy from a PR perspective to make the trade.

“Any time somebody wants to look back and see how something was conveyed, you can potentially find fault,” the GM said. “But I think you have to trust me, Andrew and trust the organization that we’re trying to do things the right way and be honest. In this situation with Andrew, there’s never been any intention to mislead. That serves no purpose for us.

Lacob’s fixation on a big man has cost the team in so many ways and will continue to hurt in the future. But for all his efforts, he has yet to provide a creditable center, though we’re all happy with his luck with Ezeli, who came easily and cheap. Bogut, by the most optimistic and probably unrealistic estimation, will not be a significant factor for at least a third of this season (he still has to get back into shape and learn to play with the team). Half a season is much more likely and probably still overly optimistic. A whole season or more is on our minds.

What has been ignored is that the team can win without a dominant center. If this had been realized sooner, we’d have had a more competitive team now with a better future.

Last Season:

Lacob put up big bucks only to get one of three centers last year who still were beyond the reach of the club and who didn’t want to come here (M Gasol, Chandler, and Jordan, the last of whom would have been an expensive mistake). He should have known this if he knew anything about the business. What this means is that other non-center options weren’t pursued who might have complemented the team well and would have been affordable, and who would have had last year to develop and be ready this year. Timing is as important as money in trades and free agency. There were good options they passed up because they were counting on getting a center and nothing else.

Instead, that money was put into Kwame ($5-6m?) and Biedrins ($9m, who could have been amnestied). That’s $14m to play with, and the money couldn’t have been spent better elsewhere.

But guess what. While they had Ellis, the team won 17 of 38 games, two games shy of 500. Curry did not play at all in 13 of those games. Biedrins made negligible contributions and Kwame went out in a few games. Udoh, however, our stand-in center, performed admirably.

How much different will the mark be this season after 38 games? I’m guessing it will be about the same at best.

The trade and this year:

I’d be curious to know how many times Ellis was mentioned as a trade possibility his last year with the Warriors. I’ll bet anything he was only considered in a trade for a center. If you don’t think Ellis has value for the team (but see the paragraph above and I’ve defended him elsewhere), he at least would have value as a trade piece for other players, non-centers, which probably was never considered. If you think his salary is exorbitant, odds are good he would have tried to opt out this year and that money would have been freed the following.

Instead, we got Bogut for two years at $10-11m, still kept Biedrins, 2 x $9m, and are stuck with Jefferson, 2 x $10m. Again, timing was missed when other players weren’t pursued who might have complemented. Again, that’s a lot of money to play with, a whole lot. And again, so far the team has gotten almost nothing for that money.

Of course we lost Udoh. We also lost development time last season for whatever team we might have had if we hadn’t tanked, with current players and whichever other ones might have been picked up.

But guess what. The team is 8 of 14 with only a rookie center, with whom we’re all happy, and a couple of less than dismal performances from Biedrins (against largely weak or injury diminished teams).

We’ll have almost nothing to work with this season or next to improve the roster—no trade pieces and no money. And if we get better pieces two years from now, they’ll still need time work into the team and develop.

The real shame is that there’s a window of opportunity now and probably next season we’re not prepared for. A lot of teams are weaker and/or in the process of rebuilding.

It’s impossible to run what if’s and say who else we might have gotten had Lacob not been so fixated on big guys, but the options were out there and he had plenty of time and money to take advantage of them. (Scola went for $3m, for example, who’s doing well for Phoenix.)

While we’re at it, if we didn’t tank and become a lottery team, would we still have had a 1st round pick last draft? If we did have one and didn’t tank, yes we lose Barnes, but Ezeli went 30th, first round, and would have been available.

Here’s Rusty Simmons article that appeared in this morning’s SF Chronicle. It’s too bad that Meyers and Bogut had to waste their time today making any sort of statement or replying to any questions in relation to Simmons article.

This piece was filled with inaccuracies, but seeing as how those inaccuracies were needed to make the writer’s point, I’m not surprised, again, given the obvious battle cry of 21st century media types who constantly accentuate sensationalism and controversy over accuracy.

(I’ve interspersed my comments throughout the article)

Andrew Bogut won’t be back this weekend – even if the Warriors say he might be. There’s a disconnect between player and management.

Center Andrew Bogut won’t return from left ankle rehabilitation this week as the Warriors anticipated, and he’s getting increasingly frustrated by the team’s continued drumming up of expectations.

This all seems to stem from the team claiming that he had minor arthroscopic surgery in April, a procedure that he says wasn’t so minor.

The 7-footer said he had microfracture surgery, a much more serious procedure, and there’s still way too much swelling to engage in strenuous activity. Playing in Saturday’s game against Indiana, he says, is absolutely out of the question.

“It’s frustrating,” said Bogut, who addressed the media Tuesday after missing consecutive practices in which the team had said he was likely to participate. “People look at you and think, ‘Why are you still hurting? It’s just an ankle.’ That’s the feeling I get sometimes. … You feel like you’re letting down the team, the fans and the organization.”

The Warriors have followed a pattern of being overly optimistic with their recovery projections for Bogut:

— They said he might return at the end of last season or play in the Olympics. He didn’t.

Sam Amick, then of SI.com, interviewed Bogut right after he was traded at the end of March. Here’s what Bogut said about his recovery time and possibly playing again, Olympics included, before the start of the 2012-13 season:

“I’ll be ready by October. That’s a certainty. The problem right now is not rushing back, and that’s why the decision was made that I’m probably not going to play this season. The one thing after that is obviously the Olympics, but if I rush back from this injury and I’m 90 percent, 95 percent, it increases the chance of that bone fracture actually becoming a break. Then I’d have all kinds of issues that would lead to a major surgery, and there’s no point trying to risk getting into that. That’s why I’ve been in the boot probably a little longer than I should. It’s almost eight weeks and they said eight weeks in the boot, and they’re probably going to actually make me go 10 because they want to make sure that it’s healing.”

Add to that the obvious, which was the Warriors organization not wanting a less-than-100% Bogut for the beginning of the following season and beyond and it ultimately goes without saying that the Warriors did not want Bogut playing again in 2011-12 nor in any Olympics games. Although I’ve yet to find where the Warriors ever said that Bogut might play in the Olympics, if they did I’m sure it was only to appease Bogut in the slight chance he recovered fully by the summer and decided to play for his country.

— They said he’d be ready for training camp. He wasn’t.

Bogut wasn’t ready for any 5-on-5 contact drills until the very end of October but he was in full uniform each day once training camp began and went through a daily rehab/conditioning program designed specifically to get him ready for the season. And when the season began, even though his ankle wouldn’t prove to be season-ready, his conditioning was such that if he wasn’t on a strict minutes-played program set by Dr. Ferkel he probably could have played major minutes from the get-go. And there’s no way that’s possible without a training camp. If the purpose of training camp is to condition and prepare your body for competitive NBA games, than yes, he was ready and did participate in training camp.

— They said he could play 20 minutes per game at the start of the season. He couldn’t.

Bogut played 18.5, 18, 19 and 17.2 minutes in his 4 games. The fact he never played 20 minutes was only because when he got close to that “magic number” prescribed by Ferkel he was essentially benched for the rest of that game to make sure he never exceeded that limit. Yes, he COULD’VE played 20 minutes, the fact he didn’t was a meaningless statistic in regards to what the writer was trying to imply.

— They said he’d return after seven to 10 more days of rehab. He hasn’t.

No, the Warriors never said he’d return after 7 to 10 days of rehab. This was a random number thrown out by BOTH the Warriors and Bogut but was never anything close to being a firm timetable. But don’t take my word for it, listen to the exact words from Bogut himself in this practice interview recorded on 11/8/12:

Simmons implied that the Warriors set this time period when in fact both parties agreed to give the media those numbers so, for the most part, Bogut wouldn’t have to answer daily questions on when he was returning.

— And the latest: They said he’d practice this week with an eye toward playing this weekend. He won’t.

“That’s not going to happen. I can tell you that right now,” Bogut said. “I’m still a little ways off. It’s an interesting rehab, because there’s no real timeline for it. I’ll be back when I’m ready to play at 100 percent.”

The Warriors confirmed Tuesday that Bogut had microfracture surgery, about seven months after claiming an arthroscopic surgery “to clean out loose particles and bone spurs” was a success and he should “return to basketball-related activities” in July.

The goal of microfracture surgery is to stimulate the growth of new cartilage by creating a new blood supply. A sharp tool is used to make multiple holes in the bone beneath the cartilage, which allows new blood to reach the joint surface. That brings new cells that will form cartilage.

Microfracture recovery can take up to a year, but the Warriors maintain that Bogut’s was so minor that the need wasn’t detected even by X-rays. They say it wasn’t until the surgery started that microfracture was considered, and they stand by their original six-month rehabilitation prognosis.

The Warriors never made any 6 month rehabilitation prognosis. This was set by Dr. Richard Ferkel, who does not work for the Warriors.

While the Warriors were on the road last week, Bogut went to the Los Angeles area, where his surgeon, Dr Richard Ferkel, gave him blood-manipulation injections. The big man hasn’t seen positive affects from the treatment yet.

Bogut is able to use the stationary bike and the elliptical machine to maintain his weight and conditioning, and he has gotten on the court for light shooting drills. But he can’t do any running or anything that calls for contact or change of direction.

He said his ankle is still sore and swollen after workouts. Scans show no new damage, but there is still a lot of scar tissue and deep bone bruising, he said.

“We’re not pressuring him,” head coach Mark Jackson said. “I want him back when he’s healthy. We’re going to hold down the fort and take care of business. We’re more than capable of going out and taking care of the job. We don’t want him on the floor until he’s 100 percent. You get uncomfortable and more frustrated when you try to rush it back.”

Bogut averaged six points and 3.8 rebounds in playing four of the Warriors’ first five games. They went 2-2 with him in the lineup, outrebounding opponents by 0.25 a game, breaking even in points in the paint, and limiting the opposition to 43.2 percent shooting.

Without Bogut, the Warriors have gone 6-4. They’re outrebounding opponents by 6.1 boards a game, scoring four more points in the paint than their opposition, and posting a 43.1 opponents’ field-goal percentage.

“That makes life much easier, because there’s no pressure on me to come back right now,” Bogut said. “If we had a bad record, I’d be feeling the wrath a little bit more from everybody

Depending on what newspaper you subscribe you came away with two totally different impressions. Carl Steward did the unthinkable, he stuck to the facts in writing his story. Rusty Simmons’ version wound up where it belonged, as lining for the garbage bin under my sink.

Felt, LOL. Does this mean you’re gunning to make that “ridiculous lawsuit” list? Like maybe either right before or right after the one about some gal who filed for $5 million over a disagreement on an 80 cent refund? LOL

OK, let’s play hypothetical with that season ticket holder who knows about the microfracture surgery in April when it comes time to decide on buying tickets for 2012-13.

So, Mr. Joe Blow, in trying to decide whether or not he’s going to buy/renew season tickets, sits down after all the offseason news is in and proceeds to add everything up.

First, there’s the draft (Barnes, Ezeli, Green). Then there’s the FA signings (Rush, Landry) to go along with the trade (DWright for JJack). Finally, there’s the Bogut situation (April surgery leads to microfracture procedure after which the surgeon increases Bogut’s recovery time from 3 to 6 months).

Hmmm, Mr. Blow loves the draft, loves the FA signings, loves the trade, and even this 3 month change in rehab time still has Bogut ready to go in October.

Final decision on tickets? I’d say Mr. Joe Blow, and 99% of all other prospective ticket buyers would have gladly forked over their money despite whatever uncertainty still existed regarding Bogut’s health.

Bottom line is that Bogut was ready to go in Game 1 of the season and played in 4 of the first 5 games before deciding that he wasn’t comfortable continuing with his ankle still not feeling the way he had hoped it would.

Rehabbing significant injuries takes time and is anything but an exact science. All evidence suggests Dr. Ferkel is as good as it gets where this type of injury and rehab/recovery is concerned. He had (and still has) Bogut on a strict rehab schedule that eventually will probably lead to his everyday return to NBA play. That return has simply been delayed until further notice (Probably due to that osteoarthritis. Or is it now all about the microfracture surgery? Frivolous lawsuits, anyone? LOL).

From AL’s site:

Tired says:
November 28th, 2012 at 11:54 pm
309..

I am just going to go out on a limb here and say:

Geezus H Christ, do we have to have all these conspiracy theories?

Do we have to worry about lawsuits from our ticket holders?

Could it just be that this was a more complicated injury than anyone could diagnose during this time?

Could it also be that professional sports teams tend to want to throw their best players back in the games as soon as possible, regardless of the reality of the situation? Concussions, anyone?

Could it be that the now completely insane world of sports coverage, blogging and shooting one’s mouth off without knowing the facts has just latched on to some more red meat?

Me, I want Bogut to get healthy- fully healthy. I don’t care how long it takes. I don’t feel cheated. I don’t feel put upon in any way. I just want him to have a chance to get well. If he doesn’t, there is nothing to be done about it aside from what we ARE doing- developing young players to move ahead, with him or without him.

Either way, we managed to parley ourselves out of an untenable, almost impossible position in terms of the draft and putting together a real team that can play together and win. That in itself is almost a miracle.

Dub fans dont decide whether to renew soley on whether Andrew Bogut is healthy or not. Most fans (unlike those on this blog) are casual and look for a Star or in the case of the Lakers (Stars) of the team.

Dubs also likely ‘lie’ about the attendance which is definitely lower this year than in previous seasons especially the upper (you would say ‘Joe Blow, aka peon) sections. And don’t believe the published attandance figure because the Warriors can make that up too. If the true attendance was published, that would indicate that Warrior fans are not that excited about this year’s team (sans Ellis).
No Star, no tickie.
We do have a likely playoff team if the early start of the season is a fair indicator. And attendance will likely pick up then.

As far as attendance goes out at The Oracle I have no idea how many bodies are turning the turnstiles for their games thus far but the club did announce in September their season ticket sales were doing quite well.

September 7, 2012
Warriors Surpass 10,000 Full Season Tickets Sold For 2012-13 Season

One Of Just Nine Teams In NBA To Have Sold At Least 10,000 Full Season Tickets For Upcoming Campaign

With single-game tickets set to go on-sale in two weeks, the Golden State Warriors announced today that the team has surpassed 10,000 full season tickets sold for the 2012-13 season. Currently, the Warriors are one of only nine teams in the NBA that have achieved 10,000 full season tickets sold for the upcoming campaign.

The Warriors averaged 18,858 fans per game in 33 home contests at Oracle Arena last season, which was the third-highest attendance average in team history. Overall, Golden State ranked 10th in the NBA in average attendance last season, marking the seventh-straight campaign in which the Warriors averaged greater than 18,000 fans per night at Oracle Arena, which has a capacity of 19,596. The Warriors are one of only seven NBA teams to average over 18,000 in attendance in each of the last seven years, joining the Chicago Bulls, Dallas Mavericks, Los Angeles Lakers, San Antonio Spurs, New York Knicks and Utah Jazz.

What is most damning about recent news is that Lacob et al. have put Bogut in a horribly compromising position with the fans, the media, and the rest of the basketball world, where his reputation is made. We all have been led to expect full recovery soon, in fact months ago, and it’s hard for suspicions not to fall on him instead of the owners, where they belong.

I’m not clear exactly what happened. Was a decision made in the procedure with Ferkel to have microfracture surgery then, after cleaning and exploration, or did Bogut (and the owners) know his condition was more serious than we’d been told and he went in knowing he would have that surgery?

It doesn’t matter what the specifics were, however. The real point is that the Bogut trade was much more risky than anyone let on at the time of the trade, and too risky to be a sensible deal, as Feltbot said months ago.

Lacob’s pronouncement here is of a piece with other statements he’s made, all superficial, foolishly naive, and potentially harmful. Claiming Klay the rookie of the year last year, for example, put Klay in a tough spot, and there was no good reason to make it, other than embellish the appearance of the team—and him. The same happened when he called the Bogut trade “a transcendent deal,” again putting undue burden and expectations on Bogut, again potentially harmful. It was not a transcendent deal and it sets him and us up for disappointment. It may also prove to be a bust. Compare with other glittering pronouncements, his “sins of the past” comment, his treatment of Nelson, and so many others.

What scares me is that our Wizard of Oz actually believes what he says, that he actually believed a fully healthy and dominant center would appear in the opening game, that he will keep doing the same and not see his errors or illusions, that he will keep pulling levers and pushing buttons behind the curtain.

What I’m not looking forward to is the spin we’ll be hearing mid to late season about how the Wizard has transformed the team. He hasn’t. The team will only be marginally better than what Lacob inherited, and it will only be better because he finally acquired some bench players the team needed three years ago.

the fans are welcome to fulfill their niche in the commercialized sports ecology by gnashing their teeth in hindsight over the risks involved in acquiring bogut. but they were in no position to assess the trade at the time it was made, especially if they were drinking the koolaid peddled by the team’s marketing about ellis’ star status. they’d be ignorant of at least two significant factors that attracted the lacobites to the deal : how badly the owner and his advisors wanted to clear the roster of all the ellis-centric turbulence (among other things, he was arguably one of their least-coachable, least adaptable pieces, and the improved team defense lauded by fans now would be impossible with him out there for his 35 min.), and ellis’ trade value on the market.

from the timbre of the noise coming from the woeyr brass now, it sounds that they had a pretty clear idea how long bogut would take to recover, and that he might not reach his former capacity until 2013, if ever. looking at an uncertain prognosis, they chose to be optimistic, all factors considered. some fans are probably underestimating how much the brass embraced making the loser’s run at keeping the lottery pick. of course the outcome of that chase was uncertain at the time, as uncertain as bogut’s condition. but lacob seems to embrace risks ; by both word and deed he epitomizes the confident capitalist.

if fans learned a bit more about the character of the new regime from all this, um so besser. the corporate chiefs will only continue to treat the consumers like children if all those happy meals keep getting eaten.

If we didn’t make the trade, then we would have used K.Brown’s $7 million to sign another free agent. We still would have had Udoh and Elis. Is that not better than Barnes and Ezeli, and having both Bogut’s (who may play sparingly over the next two years) and Jefferson’s contracts on our books for two more years? We may well have two large dead contracts on our hands for the next two years.

Do you think we would not have had a chance to having Ellis included in the Orlando trade, and the Warriors net Iggy.

Also, if Rush had not gone down there would have been little need for Barnes.

The real upside for the Warriors is signing Landry. In many ways, he’s similar to D. Lee, and even though I really like D.Lee, it opens up the possibility of a trade to upgrade the team.

If we’re playing what-if-no-trade, would the Ws still have had a shot at Ezeli? I forget which first-round pick was included in the Jefferson deal.

Could we have brought in a free agent backup guard instead of trading Wright for Jack? With Wright on board, we really wouldn’t have needed Barnes (though I gotta say I think Barnes could turn out to be a better player than Wright).

With no Jefferson salary and with Kwame Brown’s expiring, could we have signed a starting FA center? Who was available?

I still suspect the Ws might have been forced to move Ellis out of town ASAP, though. If not, it would have been smarter to give him more time to rehab his image and improve his trade value.

“If we’re playing what-if-no-trade, would the Ws still have had a shot at Ezeli? I forget which first-round pick was included in the Jefferson deal.”

WH, GSW received the Spurs pick (#30) so “what-if-no-trade” would have resulted in the Warriors only having a couple of 2nd round picks, the first of which was #35. Maybe Ezeli is still there but then it’s a case of Ezeli or Green? Forget that, I’m greedy, I want both!

The Ellis/Bogut trade came down in March. Bogut’s “cleanup” surgery occurred in April. At that time it was determined that Bogut would also benefit from microfracture surgery. That all seems straightforward and aboveboard, and it suggests that at the time of the trade Bogut looked like he’d be a player this season. If true, it was an OK trade.

If Bogut couldn’t play, though, the trade was an inconceivable bust. So while it’s possible that the team made a conscious attempt to deceive fans, it’s also possible that everyone involved – Lacob, Myers, Bogut – might simply have been overly optimistic. After all, Bogut DID have medical clearance to play in November. That’s not a conspiracy, that’s a can-do attitude.

Whatever the cause for not sharing the whole picture with fans, I admire Bogut for coming clean on his condition now, and I totally support his decision to complete healing and avoid further risk of damage.

Time will tell if the Ellis/Bogut trade was worthwhile. But that has always been true, from the moment it was announced. In light of the recent revelations, the timeline looks longer. That’s the only difference.

Of course, it’s easier to be philosophical about all this with the team’s current winning record. And I didn’t buy season tickets.

“Golden State Warriors Guard Stephen Curry, who has missed the last 24 games and 37 contests overall this season due to a right ankle sprain, will undergo arthroscopic surgery on the ankle next Wednesday, April 25 in Van Nuys, California. The surgery, which will be performed by Dr. Richard Ferkel, will be exploratory in nature. Dr. Kenneth Hunt from the Warriors’ Medical Team will also be involved in the surgery process.”

Of course now we’re wondering if we got the full dope on Curry.

And on Bogut:

“Center Andrew Bogut, who has missed 23 games due to a fractured left ankle since joining the Warriors following his March 13 acquisition from the Milwaukee Bucks, will undergo arthroscopic surgery on the ankle next Friday, April 27 in Van Nuys. The surgery, which will also be performed by Dr. Richard Ferkel, will be a routine clean-up procedure aimed to remove loose particles in the ankle. Either Dr. Tim McAdams or Dr. Bill Maloney from the Warriors’ Medical Team will be involved in the surgery process. Bogut’s fractured left ankle continues to heal properly since sustaining the injury on January 25 when he was a member of the Bucks.”

Do note the Warriors Medical Team was involved, who I assume talked to their boss. Also that we were told his ankle had healed properly.

There might be an interesting comparison between Philly and GS. Both have early wins and both banked on two expensive centers, neither playing now or any time soon. Lowe doesn’t reach a definitive decision, but I’m intrigued with this possibility:

“But there were alternatives, especially after the Sixers used the amnesty provision on Elton Brand in early July. Philly could have opened up about $20 million in cap space dumping Brand, renouncing the rights to Lou Williams (gone to Atlanta) and Spencer Hawes (back on a two-year deal), and holding off on pouring money into marginal players such as Nick Young, Dorell Wright, and Kwame Brown. That cap space might not have led to anything, especially in a free-agent market in which most of the key targets were restricted. But even if they missed on the big prizes — Roy Hibbert, Brook Lopez, Eric Gordon — Philly could have tried to fill their big-man need by tossing a poison pill offer at Omer Asik. They could have thrown a massive offer at Nicolas Batum, a sweet-shooting and versatile small forward who moves wonderfully off the ball — a must-have skill on any team with Jrue Holiday and Evan Turner. Or Philly could have simply inked a couple of productive mid-priced players (who was that Williams guy, again?) and kept a healthy chunk of space open for a potential lopsided trade.”

Which leads to the question which similar options the Warriors might have considered.

And if he’s supposed to be the spokesman for the Warriors, someone should tell him that repeating the same statements 2-3 times each with different words doesn’t make anything sound more true. Rather less.

Not at all. It’s an unwritten but important part of Myers’ job description.

But Myers threw in a dodge. While he did say “I apologize,” and “I take responsibility,” he also said it was a group decision. In other words, it’s not his fault.

I suppose Marcus Thompson can’t be blamed for not calling Myers on the disconnect there. He needs good relations with the team just for continuing access to do his job. But gee wiz, real reporters do more than take dictation. This is part of what’s wrong with America, dad gum.

What is irritating about the press coverage of The Ankle is that I don’t recall any investigation or skepticism back at the time of the trade. But give the press something sensational—THEY LIED!—and the press jumps all over it.

Again, no one may have known much back then, but trading for a big with a serious injury, in fact several serious injuries, is always a risk. No but FB said this.

@75
Saying his ankle was “healing properly” was another lie. No one knew if it was healing properly or not. We did find out later, however, that it was sore and his ankle was running a fever at the time.

Good win, especially when Denver is uncharacteristically shooting well outside. Still, I’m not sure what they were trying to do on offense the middle quarters. My impression is that their lowest percentage shots were straight drives to the basket. If they were getting fouled, the fouls weren’t called. This certainly was the case for Barnes. They ran a play early where he made a mid-range shot. But the rest of the time he tried to drive with no effect. None of the drivers were looking to dish off, but by running in the middle of the Denver defense they couldn’t see anyone anyway. Kerr mentioned that the Warriors weren’t getting good looks for many of their shots.

45 minutes for Curry last night and 42 for Klay. Lee, however, had a monster game with a more manageable 36. I’d like to see the Warriors take a page out of Popovich’s book, whose second unit led Miami at Miami last night with 23 seconds to go. The strength of the Warriors is its depth, and if they are going to make any kind of run this year, the starters will need to be rested towards the end. But also they might be able to develop a second unit that can hold its own and give less deep teams fits come sub time, even surprise everyone every now and then, like Miami.

With many of the offensive sets they’re running, Jack or Jenkins could run them as effectively as Curry, and thus give him a break. There are all kinds of ways they could cut Klay’s time.

If the team could add one more piece. . . .

On a minor note, I’m always surprised by assist counts, especially on Curry. Many games it seems low, but I was surprised to see 10 last night. I don’t think he’s getting the breaks Rondo does from the scorers.

The Warriors played great last night. But, their inability to get to the foul-line and convert as many free throws as their opponents, 19-10, almost cost them the game even though we outshot Denver 51% to 45%. A little rest and good practices went a long way.

I guess the Warriors will be going small the rest of the year, with Ezeli-Biedrins, playing less than half the game.

Someone, please tell me, why Barnes’ jump-shots are so erratic, and why his ball sometimes misses the inside of the basket entirely, and instead strikes the outer portion of the back and side of the rim? It seems that his shooting motion is never the same.

The real Warriors screw-up was putting Bogut on the court shortly after his hidden microfracture surgery.

Harrison Barnes – I’m glad to see Coach Mark Jackson take Barnes out of the game when he’s not aggressive or ineffective as he did with Klay Thompson early on in his rookie season. Harrison’s defense needs to pick up as well.

For the record, I completely support Popovich’s actions in resting 4 starters. 1) The NBA schedule is ridiculous, and he’s been pushing back against it for years. 2) He is not tanking, but attempting to win a championship in June. 3) He is not point-shaving, but coaching to win with the players available. And he darn near pulled it off.

AW’s piece on this is revealing. I didn’t know about what happened to Brandon Rush:

“When Yahoo! Sports uncovered a pattern of deliberate predraft rules violations that benefited the New York Knicks and penalized the rest of the teams, Stern did little. Brandon Rush blew out his knee in an illegal workout, Wilson Chandler was stashed for weeks in Atlanta so no one else could get access to him before the draft, and Stern fined that Cablevision empire essentially lunch money for a weekend shindig in the Hamptons with the Dolans.

“Teams had talked about these violations for years and complained to Jackson’s office. Brandon Rush said the NBA had never once contacted him before the Y! Sports’ investigation. For two years, the charges went uninvestigated.”

RE: My view on Pops – Coaches discretion to decide to play them or not. However, where else do you get paid – not to show up to work? All healthy players should be required to travel with the team and suit up – or be fined.

It would actually be entertaining to see the Spurs team playing 9 guys and for Pops to not put the starters in the game (and not at the end of the season)… I’d like to see the faces of Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu G. – as their teammates are playing – and the stars have to watch.

White hat, I beg to differ. The decision to trade Monta and Udoh for an injured Bogut who we knew couldn’t play last year was a key part of the decision to tank last year. The trade was part and parcel of that decision.

OT, yeah, sorta. With a weak, Ellis-and-Udoh-less team it was easier to tank without being quite as obvious about it. And it worked out to the Ws advantage, luckily. They got Barnes.

But even without Ellis/Udoh, Lee had to be “injured” to make the record bad enough. Jackson had to start a game with 5 rookies, an NBA first. He had to play Jefferson in crunch time over Wright or Rush.

Ask yourself this: could the team have skipped the trade and tanked anyway? Sure. Jackson didn’t mind looking stupid. Anybody can go into the coach’s doghouse, and anyone can get injured. The team could have benched Monta and Udoh if they had to, “darn the luck.”

The decision to tank was an option with or without the trade. So you have to look at the trade in isolation. By itself it was costly, and far more risky than most trades. And if all the team wanted from tanking was that #7 pick, the trade was, strictly speaking, unnecessary.

So why pay a huge price for a “maybe?” It was a debatable trade even in the best case, even if Bogut were fully recovered by mid-summer.

Lacob, Myers, West et. al. aren’t stupid. The ONLY reason smart guys would make that trade is that they had to get rid of Ellis. Unless you can think of some other reason that makes sense. But leave the tank job out of it. That was a separate decision.

If the team had traded Ellis for someone else, a non-center, even an average player or a young player with potential, and/or for draft picks, or even if they simply bought him out (and they would have found buyers for at least $4-8m over the two years, more likely more than that)—

They still would have had a better team now and for the foreseeable future, for the simple reasons that the core of Curry/Lee/Thompson, who are carrying the team now, would have been intact and they would have had a lot of money to play with to fill the roster. It’s impossible to work scenarios, but there are all kinds of possibilities not pursued and there would have been substantial funds to pay for them.

This was a bad trade. I still question it if Bogut were fully healthy.

rgg++ – You hit the nail on the head. The trade was bad because of the salary commitments they have to make for players who are not contributors to the team. With the money they would have saved, a significant player would have been added. At this rate, Koufos (Nuggets signed as a free agent), among a few others would have been a superior move even if the Dubs lost Ellis to free agency anyway.
Thanks, for making the point!

rgg, Bogut’s ankle WAS healing properly at the time the April PR was released and WAS healED properly when he returned to the court in October. How in the world do you think doctors determine whether or not bones and ligaments are healing as hoped in their patients? The answer is follow-up x-rays, MRI’s and CT scans.

These are exactly what the doctors involved with Bogut looked at during the course of his post-injury period, all the way to the point he was cleared for a return to the court in October. There’s a difference between his broken ankle being completely healed and being able to function in an NBA game to your fullest capabilities. Other “stuff” goin’ on down there.

It’s hilarious how now that all these fans/media types have become so “knowledgeable” about the world of medicine you get the feeling they should be setting up patient appointments for next week. LOL

And then there’s all those lying Warriors who work in management who you can’t trust as far as you could throw ’em.

I guess the real problem is who CAN you believe nowadays?

Rusty Simmons (who stretched and twisted the truth in writing his story on Bogut, the Warriors and the secretive microfracture surgery)?

Or how about Feltbot, who sarcastically slammed the Warriors for their intimated lack of due diligence before making the Bogut trade (“Why wasn’t the state of Bogut’s ankle cartilage — as revealed by the FIRST surgery — discoverable by the Warriors prior to the trade? Did they do ANY due diligence?)?

My guess is they did more DD than what Felt did, who emphatically (“FIRST surgery”) implied that Bogut had already undergone surgery before being traded when in fact that was not true. Not TRUE? A LIE by our very own Felt? A lack of due diligence by our hero? LOL

Here was a clue that Bogut never had surgery on his broken ankle prior to the trade (Bogut interview by Sam Amick in March):

“I’ll be ready by October. That’s a certainty. The problem right now is not rushing back, and that’s why the decision was made that I’m probably not going to play this season. The one thing after that is obviously the Olympics, but if I rush back from this injury and I’m 90 percent, 95 percent, it increases the chance of that bone fracture actually becoming a break. Then I’d have all kinds of issues that would lead to a major surgery, and there’s no point trying to risk getting into that. That’s why I’ve been in the boot probably a little longer than I should. It’s almost eight weeks and they said eight weeks in the boot, and they’re probably going to actually make me go 10 because they want to make sure that it’s healing.”

There’s no difference between a fracture and a break, it’s one and the same. But there are different types of fractures, namely non-displaced and displaced. Since Bogut implied a difference it would be safe to assume that his fracture was non-displaced and to come back before it was completely healed would risk a displaced fracture, a pretty good indicator that he had no pre-trade surgery. And indeed, that was exactly the case, as anyone who took a few minutes to Google “Bucks, surgery, Bogut” would have discovered:

(BTW, rgg, notice how the Bucks determined whether or not Bogut was healing properly? Rumor has it the Warriors and other doctors around the league do likewise.)

Guess what, Felt, the Warriors consulted with the Bucks team doctors, looked at all those very same x-rays and CT scans that the Milwaukee doctors had already viewed, came to the same conclusions that Bogut was healing properly, and all prior to making the trade with the Bucks. Unfortunately, the state of Bogut’s ankle cartilage wasn’t discovered until the FIRST and ONLY surgery on Bogut, which was performed by the WARRIORS.

Yep, all a bunch of lying dirtbags. But with the Dubs in first place how can I be pissed at anyone? Felt, love ya, man!

As with Stoudamire’s microfracture knee surgery – he tried to come back within 6 months of surgery or so – played well for a short period, then shelved his season. After resting that season/off-season, Stoudamire recovered and played great.

W’s need to be patient with Bogut – wait for him to recover even if it means he’s out for most or all this season – and have him healthy next season… That’s the hand we’re dealt.

Then the W’s will have a game-impacting center to add to an above average NBA team.

PB
A lotta Knicks fans would disagree with Stoudamire’s performance since surgery. Where is Amare now? On the trade block.

Phoenix made little or no effort to keep him. Truly, he peaked before surgery and looks to come off the bench when he returns.

Bogut if he does come back this season will never exceed twenty minutes per game. So it looks like even Feltbot was overly optimistic on the number of games for AB.

If he returns next season, it will be his final contract year. And the Warriors will be faced with signing him again, or the oft injured center will go to another team. Warriors could have gotten a more productive center without the trade.

Isn’t this the point? Walton’s in the Hall and even after all the injuries – was sixth man of the year in helping the Celtics win a championship. Oddly, the Lakers Jerry West wanted a doctor’s report first – whereas Red and Larry Bird – didn’t.

@75, the Warriors official statement, made prior to the April surgery:

“Bogut’s fractured left ankle continues to heal properly since sustaining the injury on January 25 when he was a member of the Bucks.”

At the time, Bogut was still experiencing pain and fever in his ankle from inflammation. These may have been normal symptoms of recovery from his initial surgery. Or they may not have been. My point is not that Lacob lied about normal recovery when he knew otherwise, but that he didn’t know if he had recovered properly or not.

Bogut did not know if he was recovering properly or not.

Our doctors did not know if he was recovering properly or not.

The Milwaukee doctors did not know if he was recovering properly or not, prior to the trade.

Dr. Ferkel did not know if he was recovering properly or not.

All the x-rays and MRI’s couldn’t tell us if he was recovering properly or not.

The couldn’t know. It’s the nature of surgeries like this. Only time will tell. And the only way to know for sure whether he was recovering properly or not was to go back in and look, which is what Dr. Ferkel did, and what he found was the need for microfracture surgery, which we have been told was minor, though we no way have of knowing what “minor” means in terms of getting Bogut back on the court.

But when we were told Bogut was healing properly back in April (what exactly does that mean?), the expectation everywhere was that Bogut would be ready for the coming season and make full contribution, and here we were misled.

Then, last summer, when it was known he couldn’t practice, the debate became whether or not he would be able to start the season.

Now the debate is when he will return this season.

Steve:

Will he miss 10 more games (virtually a certainty)?

20?

The rest of the season?

Based on what?

Bookies:

What are you betting now, given the new information about his surgery?

There are a few things I’m absolutely certain of: Bogut will labor in 4 games and miss 12 more. If he returns soon, he will have missed pre-season and not have had serious practice time. This is a substantial loss, and very much contrary to what we were led to believe.

Incidentally, I was listening to KNBR driving to work the other day, and Fitz and Rod were interviewing Marc Spears, who broke the story that Bogut was going to play tonight. Fitz challenged him on his source, but he knew, and Spears essentially conceded—Bogut told Spears that himself. Bogut really is trying to play and get back to the team and prove himself. We have no cause to be frustrated with him. Some days he feels fine, though he hasn’t really put his ankle to the test, and he based his decision on that. Other days, not fine at all.

I’m not sure comparisons can be made, but a a caller on the show, a weekend athlete, said he had microfracture on his knee. The pain was debilitating. Then, almost overnight, it disappeared and he was back to normal. Unfortunately, it took 18 months.

rgg, one last time after which I’ll leave you with whatever state of confusion you’re still in, if any.

You said, “The Warriors official statement, made prior to the April surgery:

“Bogut’s fractured left ankle continues to heal properly since sustaining the injury on January 25 when he was a member of the Bucks.”

At the time, Bogut was still experiencing pain and fever in his ankle from inflammation. These may have been normal symptoms of recovery from his initial surgery. Or they may not have been. My point is not that Lacob lied about normal recovery when he knew otherwise, but that he didn’t know if he had recovered properly or not.

Bogut did not know if he was recovering properly or not.

Our doctors did not know if he was recovering properly or not.

The Milwaukee doctors did not know if he was recovering properly or not, prior to the trade.

Dr. Ferkel did not know if he was recovering properly or not.

All the x-rays and MRI’s couldn’t tell us if he was recovering properly or not.

The couldn’t know. It’s the nature of surgeries like this. Only time will tell. And the only way to know for sure whether he was recovering properly or not was to go back in and look, which is what Dr. Ferkel did, and what he found was the need for microfracture surgery, which we have been told was minor, though we no way have of knowing what “minor” means in terms of getting Bogut back on the court.”

rgg, I highlighted everything which you have bass ackwards, along with the key word that was used in the Warriors PR that you quoted.

The Warriors (and before that the Bucks) PR’d that Bogut’s FRACTURED BONE was HEALING properly. Have you ever broken any bones? I have, both my arms. Guess what, rgg, the magical power of the x-ray machine (just to name one) enables doctors to see how your bones are healing, and a series of x-rays, or CT scans, in the case of Bogut, enabled the doctors to watch the healing process evolve over a period of time, thus leading to their updates on whether or not Bogut’s fractured ankle bone was healing properly, WHICH IT WAS. This wasn’t a guess, this was A FACT. Recovering properly? No, HEALING properly.

You also erroneously made reference to Bogut’s “initial surgery”. The “initial surgery” was when Ferkel went in and found the need for microfracture surgery. Ferkel, nor any other doctor, never went “back in”, as you erroneously stated. Bogut, since the day he fractured his ankle, has only had ONE SURGERY, and that was by the Warriors and Ferkel.

His fractured bone healed properly, and that’s precisely what both the Bucks and Warriors updated everyone on. You can take everything else from there, and hopefully be less confused in the process. LOL

By initial surgery, I meant whatever procedure he had when his ankle was first broken, and thank you for clearing this up. He still had swelling, etc. The issue here is whether he was healthy or not. He wasn’t and still isn’t and we were led to believe he was on the way to recovery.

Thank you for helping me with my state of confusion, but for the life me, I can’t see what difference distinction makes. (Emerson, where are you?)

“Or go over the enemy. Like the 101st Airborne, dropping into Normandy behind the German Atlantic Wall.”

The Lakers routed Denver last night—and Meeks and Jamison scored 54 points, 12 of 18 from three point land. I’m guessing not even Gasol and Howard could score against the Denver front line. Or maybe the Lakers didn’t try and just let the outside scoring ride.

I doubt we’ll see the same performance this season, but we’ll see more similar. It’s intriguing what some outside shooting can do every now and then. And a lot of Laker starters got some rest (cf. Miami).

Don’t forget that Curry also went down after the trade which helped the Warriors tank the season.If he didn’t get injured, it would have been harder for Jackson to find a way to lose.

Felt: I totally agree with you that Pop did the right thing by resting his players after a compact six games. By the NBA insisting on an 82 game season, they invite and insure injuries.

No wonder the Warriors have sustained major injuries the last few years. It almost makes rooting for a team a waste of time. It’s all about the money. If the NBA cared about it’s players it would reduce the season to 50 games, and then hold play-offs.

Curry had recurring ankle injuries all season and kept coming back until the Ellis trade. He tweaked it again and they sat him for the season. Then they sat David Lee too. He would not have sit out had the Warriors had something to play for.

The trade, sitting Curry, sitting Lee later, all part of the tank in my book. Come on guys I’m trying to connect the dots for you. Players play hurt all the time. If you want to tank, your good players dont play hurt and you trade your star player for an injured big. Perfect tank. Before the perfect draft class. And sometime in the next few years we’ll be playing for a Championship as a result of that trade and the resulting draft.

feltmeister, there was a recent piece by one of the local scribes (probably thompson II) about the team taking the personality of the coach in re. to the offense. he wants them looking for the extra pass, not the first open shot. he also has the guards and wings pretty focused on giving help on the boards, not getting out to beat the defense before the rebound gets secured. and so far it looks like there’s only one player on the roster with a knack for the outlet pass, curry of course, but with limited opportunities we can’t know much about the other players anyway –the rebounders only see the guards and wings usually stuck in the defensive half of the court.

my theory, this team fill struggle against teams with decent enough wings to stifle the thompson/barnes duo and who can force a quicker tempo, like Den or Mem, especially when lee, landry, thompson are on the court. when they superficially resemble a ‘small’ unit, subbing green for lee (green is shorter than lee but not smaller, weights and standing reach are nearly identical) it’s obviously a better match up against quicker teams. green and landry have complementary games on both ends, and the rookie is probably the closest to that ‘spread 4’ you’re fond of.

Great take by Dwyer. Can’t believe a lot of the comments on this blog about no one could have known that there were problems, or no one really lied …
And as FB mentioned how does Dwyer leave out that the surgery occurred in April at the height of season ticket renewal time… But what really irks me now, is Bob Myers weaka## apology:

“As the general manager of this organization, I know it’s being perceived that it was mishandled and not handled appropriately. Ultimately that rests on my shoulders. Not (co-owner) Joe Lacob, not anybody in the organization but myself. Again, in these situations, there is a process involved and, ultimately, the last thing I want to do or anybody in the organization wants to do, is deceive the fans. So the fact that some people feel that way, I feel really bad about that. … That rests on my shoulders. It’s something we’ll work through and get the trust of those fans back.”

How about Myers saying,” as general manager I am responsible for the statements about Bogut’s surgery and I apologize for misrepresenting it as arthroscopic clean out when it became a micro-fracture surgery. The fact that this occurred while many fans were making the decision to renew season tickets is particularly embarrassing. “

The idea that the timeline was not changed because the area micro-fractured is so small is ridiculous, Bogut himself says most guys take a year and it definitely extended his recovery time.

Finally who is going to apologize and take responsibility for Bogut delaying his eventual return by trying to rush back at the beginning of the season. As MT reported, “Bogut said he rushed back too soon and his ankle hasn’t gotten better since he’s been playing”

“The surgery occurred in April at the height of season ticket renewal time” “The fact that this occurred while many fans were making the decision to renew season tickets is particularly embarrassing.”

Buckaroo, I doubt many fans renew or decide to buy season tickets right after a losing, playoff-less regular season ends. In fact, how about next-to-no one. Instead, this is the VERY likely path followed by most fans (as I posted earlier):

“So, Mr. Joe Blow, in trying to decide whether or not he’s going to buy/renew season tickets, sits down after all the offseason news is in and proceeds to add everything up.

First, there’s the draft (Barnes, Ezeli, Green). Then there’s the FA signings (Rush, Landry) to go along with the trade (DWright for JJack). Finally, there’s the Bogut situation (April surgery leads to microfracture procedure after which the surgeon increases Bogut’s recovery time from 3 to 6 months).

Hmmm, Mr. Blow loves the draft, loves the FA signings, loves the trade, and even this 3 month change in rehab time still has Bogut ready to go in October.

Final decision on tickets? I’d say Mr. Joe Blow, and 99% of all other prospective ticket buyers would have gladly forked over their money despite whatever uncertainty still existed regarding Bogut’s health.”

Steve, it sounds like you’re trying to minimize the severity of the Ws front office lying to fans. I’m curious why you feel you should defend them.

The problem with the way things stand right now is that the FO’s credibility is completely shot, especially after tanking – and denying it – last year. Whether or not you think it’s a big deal, lying to customers is no way to build loyalty. It’s bad for business.

If Warriors management were smart, they would try to make amends. Some believable gesture that they really are sorry, unlike the asinine non-apology “oops” Myers gave. The team should offer buy-backs on the remainder of the season ticket holders’ purchases. After all, if you’re right it would cost the Ws next to nothing. And it would go a long way toward rebuilding the trust and loyalty a sports franchise needs.

White Hat, all I can do is tell you (and anyone else interested) is how I feel as a fan. And how I feel is EXACTLY how this fan feels (as posted earlier from #66), taken from AL’s blog:

“Could it be that the now completely insane world of sports coverage, blogging and shooting one’s mouth off without knowing the facts has just latched on to some more red meat?

Me, I want Bogut to get healthy- fully healthy. I don’t care how long it takes. I don’t feel cheated. I don’t feel put upon in any way. I just want him to have a chance to get well. If he doesn’t, there is nothing to be done about it aside from what we ARE doing- developing young players to move ahead, with him or without him.

Either way, we managed to parley ourselves out of an untenable, almost impossible position in terms of the draft and putting together a real team that can play together and win. That in itself is almost a miracle.

What few mistakes (IMO) that Lacob and Co. have made since buying the Warriors they’re quickly erasing with their many more positive moves. Personally, I only care about the finished product that takes the court 82 (and hopefully more) games a season.

I don’t care about how many CL’s that a player tears in a knee (No, I’m not cruel and/or heartless, but once something like what happened to BRush happens my only thoughts are for a speedy recovery so he can join that “finished product” I referred to) or to whatever degree of difficulty was necessary in surgically repairing a player’s body part. I’m not a doctor nor do I care to think like one. I don’t care about medical terminology nor projected recovery times. I only care about how a player/team performs when they’re performing on the court. Yes, very simple-minded but uncomplicated and to the point. Just win, baby, and I’m a happy fan/customer.

But you know what else? Even if the Warriors weren’t doing so well right now I’d still be happy with new ownership, the players they’ve drafted/added, and their aggressive thinking in moving forward as a franchise.

If you’re worried about people supposedly “lying” than you should be happy to know that everything I just said was NOT a lie but the absolute truth from the heart of a fan of GSW. What else can I say?

“…all I can do is tell you (and anyone else interested) is how I feel as a fan…”

“…Me, I want… I don’t care how long… I don’t feel cheated… I don’t feel put upon… I just want…”

“I don’t care… I only care…”

What don’t I understand about your attitude, Steve?

I don’t personally feel cheated either. As I’ve written here, I even have some sympathy for the Ws front office in this situation. Through no fault of their own, they were faced with some tough PR problems that would be difficult for any company to handle.

My point is that some fans do feel cheated, and many others were simply left disgusted with Ws management. That’s bad for the Warriors as a business. It has nothing to do with the team’s competitiveness, but everything to do with running a consumer business well. People who look like sleazebags have a problem.

If the team wanted to regain the trust of those fans who are upset, they have options. They should make the effort to repair their image problem, regardless of how you or I may personally feel about it. It wouldn’t even cost much, if anything, to do.

On a different note, I don’t subscribe to your win-at-all-costs, end-justifies-the-means approach, in sports or in life. I don’t claim to be a saint, only that integrity has some value to me. And while you may think my comments stupid or irrelevant, I try not to be insulting or abusive. You should try that. Antagonizing people doesn’t make your case.

You did leave out the fact, the FO has announced they are leaving Oakland in favor of a hard to get stadium in San Francisco. Totally screwing some of their “best fans in the world” notably in the South Bay, but the East Bay too by tossing a sold out arena in favor of a stadium that will prove hard to travel to.

I don’t defend Lacob because he is a typical VC who listens to only his inner self!

Hopefully, another NBA team will eventually relocate to San Jose, we can only hope.

Nellie took the Knicks to the cleaners in the D. Lee trade. Adam just can’t bring himself to say he was wrong in opposing the trade and believing in A. Randolph’s potential. As long as D.Lee’s not playing center, he’s good on defense. Even with the Warriors playing poorly last year, the D.Lee-Udoh defensive combination consistently allowed the Warriors to outscore the opposition by a wide margin.

Thompson shoots 47% at SG, 37% playing SF. Opponents shoot 51% when he’s playing SG, 42% when he plays SF.

Barnes shoots a whopping 72% at SG (he doesn’t play that position much), 49% at SF, Opponents SG’s shoot 56% when he plays SG, and SF’s shoot 49% when he plays SF. Barnes not very good on defense.

For the Warriors to have continued success, Barnes minutes should be reduced, Landry and Green’s increased. Warriors should consider taking Barnes out of starting line-up and inserting Jack, Landry, or Green.

PF’s shoot only 25% against Ezeii, center’s only 40%. Great numbers, except for the fact, that his lack of offense results in the Warriors having a -4 rating, and the Warriors being outscored when he’s on the court.

The Knicks thought they were getting a potentially terrific player in A. Randolph and that’s part of the reason they did the deal. Surely, they could have gotten more for D.Lee from other teams. Nice going, Nellie.

please refer to ‘point guard’ ‘s reply @ 102. you often sound fond of revisionism that can’t be supported unless you knew all the trade market variables at play when the deals were made. lee had the option simply to sign a free agent contract with another team and ø in assets going to NY, but that limited the buyers to those possessing enough cap space to make an attractive bid. the interested teams without the cap space could only do as the woeyrs did, put together enough to motivate NY re-signing lee and then trading him. do you know what other teams were considering a deal like that w. NY for lee ? with their stoudemire-centric plan, NY didn’t need to get involved with any auction for lee to retain him ; they probably felt he’d done pretty well for a #30 pick and getting a little from the woeyrs was better than nothing.

David Lee is one of the best outlet passers in the league. He just has no one to throw it to, as the Warriors are largely eschewing the fast break.

“This team will struggle against teams with decent enough wings to stifle the thompson/barnes duo and who can force a quicker tempo…”

Excellent call. I believe that’s exactly what we just saw against Orlando. The Magic badly exposed the Warriors’ lack of an actual two-guard. Thompson on Reddick, Barnes on Afflalo both got eaten alive.

I’ll expound on this in my next recap, hopefully after a win in Detroit. That game should be far easier for the Warriors to defend, with Thompson against the aging Prince, and Barnes against a bigger SF, the 2nd round pick Kyle Singler (6-8, 230) who has helped turn around the Piston’s fortunes after being moved into the starting lineup.

After the nightmare of Afflalo, let’s see what Barnes can do with Singler. And Thompson with Prince, after the nightmare of Reddick. Two small forwards against two small forwards: a fair fight.

Felt says “David Lee is one of the best outlet passers in the league. He just has no one to throw it to, as the Warriors are largely eschewing the fast break.”

Meanwhile, Dan Devine of BDL says (in talking about the Warriors/Nuggets TNT game from last Thursday night):

“Given its combination of pregame shenanigans, promises of forthcoming hell to pay and (oh-by-the-way) some legitimately competitive basketball capped by a late-game dagger from one of the NBA’s all-time assassins, the front-end of Thursday night’s TNT doubleheader was a pretty tough act to follow. Luckily, the back-end featured two of the league’s 10 fastest-paced teams, 10 players scoring in double-figures, cool dunks, mammoth blocks, Anthony Randolph and 18 combined 3-pointers.”

It also happens to include your opponents speed of play into your own pace. Could the fact that the Warriors have played Denver 3 times already have anything to do with the Warriors’ ranking? Yes it could, and does.

It’s not so much that Lee and Landry were physically abused by Baby and Vucevic, it’s that they were pulled out of position so much trying to help Thompson and Barnes. The Magic bigs’ big game was directly related to the inability of Thompson and Barnes to guard twos. Baby was unstoppable on the pick and roll. And Vucevic was cleaning up every miss at the rim because the lane was vacant.

Jackson tried to respond by playing Jarret Jack at two for 30 minutes. But Vaughn cleverly countered by playing a three guard lineup of Nelson, Reddic and Afflalo, leaving Thompson and Barnes nowhere to hide. The Warriors lost this game because they don’t have any two-guards.

As Gary St. Jean said at halftime: “They’re going straight at Thompson and feeling good about it.”

It is true that Ezeli had a subpar, zero rebound, first half. Perhaps rookie-motivation was what Jackson was after when he hammered the Warriors bigs post-game. But that wasn’t the story of this game.

Felt, there is some truth to the fact the Warriors bigs were out of position. However, Big Baby abused Lee, Landry and Festus with an array of post moves. Whenever he got into the middle of the lane, he scored. He also had two And-ones that were a direct result of bad defense by the Warriors on the pick and roll. Barnett mentioned that the Warriors had to change their strategy by having the big man show on the pick and roll.

I’d really like to hear your take on how the Magic defended the Warrior’s pick and roll at the top of the key. Curry had to work harder in this game on offense than I’ve seen all season. He had 11 assists, but he had to work, work, work to get into the lane, and when he got there, it was still congested.

I’m filing the police report for Big Baby Davis with the Oakland P.D. right now… LOL! Should I file a police report with the S.F.P.D. as well?

Orlando ran screen after screen for Reddick and Afflalo effectively and very true – the Warriors didn’t defend this well. Jack, Curry, Thompson, and Barnes. All of them didn’t fight hard enough, athletically off the screens – David Lee/Carl Landry providing little help.

I like playing small, but Ezeli – but it’s pretty obvious to me that Festus needed more than 16 minutes in this game…

And when are we going to see a little Bazemore? Todd was born to make Reddick/Afflalo work harder for looks and fight through screens.

Fizdale sighs as he discusses the 2011 Finals, when the Heat clogged the paint with two traditional big men, forcing James to the perimeter. “All those jumpers he missed were as much our fault as his,” Fizdale says. “He had to be great in spite of what we were doing. Now he has an avenue to be great because of what we’re doing.”

SYSTEMS MATTER. Thank you, Don Nelson, for the vision that gave us Dirk Nowitzki, Lebron James, Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony at the FOUR.

Even though Harkless had good stats going into the game, he looked terrible and played like a guy who only played one year of college ball.

Moto: Who cares what the Knicks motivation was in trading D.Lee, nor what other deals may have been on the table. The simple fact is that the Warriors got the better end of deal by receiving D. Lee, a quality
PF.

Vucevic gets the job done even though he shows no athleticism.

Felty: Thanks for pointing out that neither Thompson nor Barnes are defensive SG’s.

Orlando has a pretty good team, coming together, with a variety of good players who perhaps are getting a chance to develop now that Howard is gone (Howard who now is talking about leaving the Lakers).

Orlando back court last night:
Afflalo scored 8 more points than his season average, Redick 8, and Nelson 6 fewer.

Front court:
Davis scored 8 more than his season average, Vucevic 4 more.

Which means we gave up about the same amount of points, front and back. Rebounding, btw, was dead even.

So why did we lose?

Was it because we couldn’t defend their bigs (who can score against anyone), or was it because we couldn’t contain their front court? And was their front court defense superior, thus containing our main and only option behind Curry and Jack, outside shooting from Klay? (I’m not clear here—did Klay have a bad night or was he outmatched?)

A stronger, experienced 2 or 3 would have tipped the scales, perhaps greatly.

If we’re going to try to fix the team now, where’s the best place to do it? Which lineup gives us the best chance for winning the point differential battle, i.e. which team scores the most points and wins?

Part of our problem is that we don’t have centers who can score. The odds of getting a scoring big are probably nil, but would another big who can’t score help that much? But what would a two-way player at 2 or 3 add?

“Was it because we couldn’t defend their bigs (who can score against anyone), or was it because we couldn’t contain their front court? And was their front court defense superior, thus containing our main and only option behind Curry and Jack, outside shooting from Klay?”

Make that:

Was it because we couldn’t defend their bigs (who can score against anyone), or was it because we couldn’t contain their back court? And was their back court defense superior, thus containing our main and only option behind Curry and Jack, outside shooting from Klay?

Some teams and some players are simply going to be tough for this Warriors team to match up with. Watching the game last night, the Magic seemed to play an especially physical style against the smaller Warriors, and they made it stick.

Baby was awesome, the best I’ve ever seen him play. He’s a huge load (listed at 295), and appears to be in the best shape of his pro career.

The Ws have done amazingly well so far this season without Bogut, but he would have been a big help last night. Rush would have too.

Dom McGuire just got released by Toronto. I wonder if the Warriors are interested after last night.

Do you seriously think BB and Vucevic are more physical than the Clippers, Indiana or Pekovich and Love? Physicality had absolutely nothing to do with it, imo. The Warriors bigs were continually beaten to every spot, because the Warriors wings were getting absolutely destroyed.

we’ll probably get used to getting run down by quicker teams. the deficiency isn’t just at the wing. the team heavily relies on ‘smaller’ bigs, lee and landry, who don’t have the advantage other ‘petite’ bigs have (green, for one), quickness. remember the days, they seem so long ago, when biedrins could beat opposing 5’s with his speed ?

Davis, btw, scored 29 against Denver’s bigs in Orlando’s strong win, though it was the first game of the season.

Here’s a question: Who would have helped most last night, a healthy Bogut or a healthy Rush? Probably Bogut, but there’s a debate here.

It’s a moot point, though, because we’re not going to find anyone to replace Bogut now, probably not in the near future. But we might be able to find a player to fill in the gap at 2 0r 3, and I like this idea. It would take the load of Thompson, play him differently, maybe open up his shooting against the better backcourts, especially if he plays 2nd. unit, and give the team more options against the lineups they have yet to face. A veteran would provide stability and leadership, and give the soph and rookies a chance to develop and help develop a team identity to build on later. It’s why I like the concept of Raja (@33). This is a good team, in spite of its FO.

We’ll be in this position again, and Klay and Steph, getting heavy minutes, are going to wear down as the season progresses. I still don’t have great hopes for playoffs, or a rout if they make up, but it would give the Warriors a creditable, competitive team, who perhaps make a better show at the end.

I don’t personally feel cheated either. As I’ve written here, I even have some sympathy for the Ws front office in this situation. Through no fault of their own, they were faced with some tough PR problems that would be difficult for any company to handle.

My point is that some fans do feel cheated, and many others were simply left disgusted with Ws management. That’s bad for the Warriors as a business. It has nothing to do with the team’s competitiveness, but everything to do with running a consumer business well. People who look like sleazebags have a problem.

If the team wanted to regain the trust of those fans who are upset, they have options. They should make the effort to repair their image problem, regardless of how you or I may personally feel about it. It wouldn’t even cost much, if anything, to do.

On a different note, I don’t subscribe to your win-at-all-costs, end-justifies-the-means approach, in sports or in life. I don’t claim to be a saint, only that integrity has some value to me. And while you may think my comments stupid or irrelevant, I try not to be insulting or abusive. You should try that. Antagonizing people doesn’t make your case.”

WH, and exactly how was I “insulting, abusive and antagonistic”? By intimating that your reading comprehension skills suck? What other conclusion could I reach when after explicitly explaining how I feel, I repeat, how I feel, about Warriors management and all this supposed lying and deceiving they’ve been guilty of regarding Bogut and his ankle, you respond by telling me that what I actually said was that if other fans didn’t feel as I did about Lacob and crew than they were totally wrong (“Oh. The way you personally feel about being lied to is the only way any fan should feel about it. Riiiiight. Got it.”). Really? That’s what I said/suggested?

How much clearer could I have been when I said, “White Hat, all I can do is tell you (and anyone else interested) how I feel as a fan.”? Where did I say anything about how other people should feel?

Then, in your latest reply, you’re telling me I have a “win-at-all-costs, end-justifies-the-means” mindset, all apparently deduced from reading that same post where I was supposedly telling everyone that they should have the same opinion as myself. LOL

How is not being interested in surgical details or rehab menu’s have anything to do with “win-at-all-costs”, etc? Again, word-for-word:

“I don’t care about how many CL’s that a player tears in a knee (No, I’m not cruel and/or heartless, but once something like what happened to BRush happens my only thoughts are for a speedy recovery so he can join that “finished product” I referred to) or to whatever degree of difficulty was necessary in surgically repairing a player’s body part. I’m not a doctor nor do I care to think like one. I don’t care about medical terminology nor projected recovery times. I only care about how a player/team performs when they’re performing on the court. Yes, very simple-minded but uncomplicated and to the point. Just win, baby, and I’m a happy fan/customer.”

How much more to-the-point can I be? I judge the Warriors and their organization by the team that takes the court each game. If they’re good at making trades, in their evaluations of available free agents, at scouting players to potentially draft, at coaching the players on the roster, if they’re competent and successful in all these departments than I’m a happy and satisfied fan.

I don’t care about the kind of surgeries performed on Rush, or Curry, or Lee, OR Bogut. I DON’T CARE! I ONLY care when those players, and all their teammates, are in uniform and playing. If some doctor says that Player A will be ready in 3 months, 6 months, a year, fine, take care of him, doc, and I look forward to watching him play when he’s recovered and healthy again. Otherwise, just pass the sports section so I can check out the schedule and see when the next game is along with where the Dubs are in the conference and division standings. How does any of this have anything to do with “win-at-all-costs” or “end-justifies-the-means”?

The Warriors said in April that Bogut was on target to play once the season started, and Bogut did play in 4 of their first 5 games. Where’s the “lying”? Did they ever say he didn’t have microfracture surgery? Or knee surgery? Or brain surgery? LOL How is saying nothing about the surgery only that he’d be ready once the season started, and he was, lying? And just because he isn’t playing now doesn’t mean the Warriors were wrong about their projections.

To try and pretend that anyone would know how the ankle would hold up after Bogut returned, be it 6, 10, or even 12 months, is absurd. It’s very possible Bogut could have continued playing if he had wanted but he didn’t, simply dissatisfied with how the ankle was responding to playing. Such is the nature of coming back after surgeries for pro athletes. But having all these developments being spun into a story about lying is ridiculous, IMO.

If Dr. Ferkel had come out after the surgery and told the media that he had performed microfracture surgery but that due to the nature of that particular procedure he still felt that Bogut would be ready by the start of the season, would that have made any difference? No, not for me, but others would have been playing amateur MD in regards Bogut’s return, something I don’t care to do and precisely my point when saying I’ll glady leave all the doctoring to the doctors, just tell me when the player is ready to go.

Let me repeat, all JUST MY OPINION. And NO, I don’t feel that others should necessarily feel the same. WH, did I state that clearly enough this time? Or am I just being “abusive and antagonistic” all over again? LOL

Steve, my final words on the matter (including a kinda-sorta apology):

Many people feel the Warriors lied by omission. Myers himself said as much.

In any large group, responses to being deceived by a company vary widely. Some customers expect it. Many don’t mind much. Some feel betrayed. That’s always true, no matter what the business. Statistically, the responses are spread across a bell curve.

A mass market’s feelings about any issue don’t even have to be based on actual facts. For example, 49% of Republicans today feel Obama stole the election with the help of Acorn. Acorn hasn’t existed in 4 years. Nevertheless, it is a fact that many people feel that way.

Strictly speaking, whether the Ws lied or not isn’t the PR problem they have. The problem – and this is a fact – is that a good percentage of their customers feel they did, and of that group a statistically significant percentage are pissed about it.

On a statistical basis, how you or I as individuals feel about a PR issue is NOT relevant. Your POV is as valid as anyone else’s (and mine isn’t even that different from yours), but in a statistical analysis of the Ws market, they’re only single data points in a pool of literally millions.

In your responses to me, feel free to disagree. I enjoy an intelligent discussion, and you’ve given me lots of them. Just keep it relevant. Otherwise I tend to repeat myself – sorry about that, but I get the impression that I didn’t say my piece well enough to be understood. In my job that’s a serious fail, so my first instinct is to go at it again and again until I’m bored. That’s kinda dumb, I guess, but that’s me.

If you simply don’t want to hear my take on Ws PR issues, skip past my comments on the topic. They don’t require a response.

White Hat, we’ve definitely had our disagreements here, but nothing wrong with that. As they say, just part of what makes the world go ’round.

You’re actually, IMO, one person here who takes a somewhat open-minded view of the Warriors (I say “somewhat” cause Mark Jackson seemingly is still off limits in that regard. LOL Maybe if he’s the coach when the Warriors win their next NBA championship?), so a thumbs-up from me on that.

Don’t worry about any “kinda I’m sorry’s” or apologies of any kind. I enjoy the back-and-forth banter. As long as you leave my mother out of any arguments we’re cool. LOL By all means, let the “fun” continue.

It also happens to include your opponents speed of play into your own pace. Could the fact that the Warriors have played Denver 3 times already have anything to do with the Warriors’ ranking? Yes it could, and does.

Like when you said that Bogut already had been cut open by Milwaukee doctors before he was traded when in fact that was false.

Or like now, when you claim you were right about Bogut. I thought you said Bogut had osteoarthritis? I still haven’t read anything about that other than here.

Tanking? Sure, the Warriors wanted to keep their first round pick, but your absurd statements about Mark Jackson were a joke. Yeah, I’m sure his soul is damned for all eternity after benching his 2 superstars (Rush and Thompson) during stretches of the last few games of the year. LOL And of course you’ve never been able to come up with an explanation for their come-from-WAY-behind win in Minny in game #64 (of 66) when they were in supposed all out tank mode. And then how about “resting” Lee and Curry (both needing surgery after the season ended)?

The Warriors may be 18th out of 30 on the fast break scale but anyone who has watched all their games just might be inclined to think the Warriors were playing plenty fast enough.

In fact, I’ve often shouted “slow down a little” at my TV when the Warriors have come barreling down on a break, as many of their turnovers have come from sloppy passes that were made when trying to play TOO fast. It’s not just how fast you run, but also how good you are in deciding when and where to deliver the ball on a fast break. There are definite times when the Warriors aren’t smart in their decision-making.

But overall, this is a team that is looking to run often, and more than enough, IMO. I doubt that Dan Devine thought the Warriors were a fun watch and a “fast” team from simply looking up those “bullshit stats”. Me thinks Dan had already caught some Dubs hoops earlier this season.

Carry on, Capt. Felt. But be on the lookout, a rumored starboard attack could be coming at any moment. LOL

Steve, great point about running smart. Remember in We Believe, and the following year how Monta would bolt as soon as the Warriors grabbed a defensive rebound? The current roster doesn’t have anyone with blinding speed or quickness, although Barnes has shown flashes.

Jackson has told Barnes he has to defensive rebound, rather than run out on the break, so Curry doesn’t have anyone to throw out front to, except Klay, who cannot seem to finish the break. Once Barnes starts running ahead of Steph, I think the Warriors start seeing more of those highlight jams.

peteb24, completely agree. Barnes has those long strides where he covers a ton of ground in the blink-of-an-eye. As with everything else regarding this team, they’ll only get better the longer they play with each other and the more experience they gain.

Steve: By the Warriors limiting themselves to playing a half-court offense, it makes it easy for teams to defend. Teams that play at different paces are more effective. Your right when you point out that when they attempt to run they are a mess, and often commit turnovers. Jackson and his staff simply don’t know how to coach a fast break, which was a hallmark of a Nellie coached team.

Moreover, Jackson keeps playing the same combination of players and never experiments. Once again, making it easy for an opposing coach to plan to negate what Jackson’s offense and defense. I would still like to see Ezeli playing with D.Lee and Landry.

The Warriors play effective small ball only when they are on fire offensively and are in the lead. As our opponents often then settle shooting threes in order to get back into the game, rather than shooting inside where we are at their mercy.

Kind of sickening for me to think that all this 1st round draft pick headache – was about Marcus Williams/NJ Nets trade in GM Mullin’s tenure – who played little for the organization. Then the kick the can down the road tactics…

rgg, the more rest the better, but the average age of the Warriors “starters” is 23.6. This unit can absorb those minutes better than most, and you can even argue the more time on the court together the better given their relative lack of playing time with each other going into the season. Now, if we can only get Bogut to “join the crowd”.

The Warriors need to play Ezeli more minutes as he’s the only player who can defend opponent centers. They are shooting only 40% when he’s on the court. Opponent centers are shooting 60% from the field against both D.Lee and Biedrins, 69% against Landry, and 100% against Green.82 games. If he keeps out of foul trouble he should be able play at least 28 minutes.

Ezeli has to prove he’s able to stay out of foul trouble before he’s going to get extended run. He is proving to be quite a good player, but he still jumps at too many pump fakes and seems to foul when he has perfect position. On the offensive end, he’s doing a great job keeping plays alive. He and Landry both have a knack and willingness to offensive rebound. This is not something I have seen from the Warriors in a LONG time.