choicelady : I think I’m done picking up the trash. Have a grand weekend, AdLib – love to the family! Sweet dreams!

AdLib : It all sounds promising, keeping HOPE alive!

choicelady : Yes – I did take three days off this week. Absolutely exhausted from three previous straight weeks of work, no weekends off. But I will be trekking the Capitol Steps to take HOPE around again. Things might be more receptive since Elections committee has nothing immediately pressing. I will see the woman in Steinberg’s office, too. So wish me well!

AdLib : CL – No worries, I like eating the last of the peanuts from the bowls as I sweep up Vox. Have a great weekend!

AdLib : So CL, is next week your week to get HOPE’n?

choicelady : Well,AdLib – I guess we’re closing up the bar and left with the cleaning. I’ll throw out the trash if you’ll sweep up the popcorn? See you next week I trust? GOOD discussion. I hope Sally and Sue aren’t angry – we really ARE trying to help.

choicelady : Sally – you still here or have you gone to post for Sunday?

choicelady : AdLib. You nailed it. Nitwit. He’s an old DSoc person, but most of them have SOME sense. He lives in La-la land.

choicelady : Now KT – here in CA Phil did his job! We will be in the 80s next week, a full 10 degrees above normal. Send Phil a ticket to Fresno!

AdLib : CL – I don’t know this guy but may I say…he sounds like a total nitwit.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I was thinking about Spring, new life, seasons. What do you think? Oh and a stern dressing down of Punksatawney Phil!

choicelady : Nope. No game plan that is different from what everyone has already done. We will probably get a “commission” to “study” single payer. When I pointed out that what’s missing is an economic analysis, he said the “commission” would provide it. I said how – he said Jerry has money. I refrained from laughing.

AdLib : CL – So they don’t have any clue about a workable game plan to get single payer passed?

AdLib : Night KT! Have a great weekend! Look forward to your music thread, do you know what theme yet?

choicelady : AdLib – the degree of delusion is horrifying. As noted, he failed last year. So, of course, we’re repeating the same awful experience expecting different outcomes. Makes sense, yesssssss?

AdLib : CL – So he doesn’t quite get the whole “branches of government” thing? Like, Govs can’t pass legislation and stuff like that. And when they kill a bill, it’s their fault it doesn’t become law?

KillgoreTrout : Well good peeps, I must bid you adieu! Or goodnight or gutten nacht, whatever.

choicelady : AdLib – what’s the calorie count in a Woofer and Tweeter?

AdLib : I’d like to see Jared eat those every day and lose weight!

choicelady : Rationalizing. Their Policy director thinks Jerry likes him and that he can get Jerry to do what he wants. First – not true on the face of it. Second – most of what we need is via the entire Legislature, and the Policy director does not seem to understand the process. We are equals – I know how it works. How can he NOT know how it works? But he doesn’t. He thinks glad handing will get the job done. Well – didn’t work last year. Not workin’ now.

KillgoreTrout : Sub woofer sandwich! Too funny.

KillgoreTrout : CL, only if it was made in Greece.

AdLib : A SubWoofer Sandwich.

choicelady : KT – I thought an electronic Gyro was one of those whirly toys?

AdLib : So does the CNA knows Brown killed single payer or are they rationalizing that away?

KillgoreTrout : An electronic Gyro?

choicelady : AdLib – Damned if I can understand it all. Jerry is a major disappointment to be generous about it. But when we had Garamendi, Newsome, and many others in the pool, they went with Jerry. The CNA has made clear they think they elected him, and they can’t get over their “we are thick with Jer” mantra DESPITE the FACT that HE told state senators NOT to pass single payer last year. He sold them out. They lie down with the sign “Kick me Again” on their bellies.

AdLib : KT – A flat screen on flat bread.

AdLib : CL – But the food looks so good in the commercials!

KillgoreTrout : Displayed on your TV, or part of the TV? A remote on rye?

AdLib : KT

AdLib : CL – Exactly! I call it The Reagan Ploy, act a bit off all the time then when you go senile, no one will notice.

choicelady : Yes dear AdLib – you’re supposed to remove the SCREEN before chewing. KT – that is HORRIBLE, and I’m so sorry. Three cheers for superglue! Though I shudder at what the toxic implications might be, I think it’s ingenious of you.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, stoned like a fox!

AdLib : KT – Absolutely! Always good to have some saved up for emergencies.

AdLib : CL – Why do they love Brown so much?

KillgoreTrout : Yeah CL. VA provisions have changed throughout the years. I am a Vietnam Era veteran and lucky to get the treatment i do get.

choicelady : AdLib – LOL!!! That’s why I always say that the degree of absent mindedness that is always mine will totally obscure the time I finally go senile. NO ONE will notice!

KillgoreTrout : I hear that. But man, they sure come in handy when you need them.

AdLib : CL – Thankfully, I always write like I’m stoned so no one would ever be able to see a difference.

choicelady : AdLib – after today in a room full of union people including the Public Policy Director of the CA Nurses Association – the fawning over Jerry made me puke.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I heard a cracking sound and then could no longer chew the bite I had taken. One of the strangest sensations I ever felt.

choicelady : AdLib – we never noticed a scintilla of dimenution (sp?) in your capacity to blog. Good going!

AdLib : CL – So you think the unions will stick by Brown and not support another Dem?

KillgoreTrout : CL, oh, I feel for you. Root canals? Ouch.

choicelady : KT – get yourself up to Buffalo! My neighbor, a woman WW II vet, got a hip replacement and dentures from the VA there. Of course that was about 15 years ago. I have to say I have NO idea if they’d still help her.

AdLib : KT – And I wasn’t shy about asking for painkillers. Don’t like to use them longer than necessary, my head gets too fuzzy to blog well!

choicelady : AdLib – Ouch!

KillgoreTrout : CL, the VA does not offer dental care unless you are “service connected.” My dental problems are not service connected. All other healthcare I can get, even surgeries. Just not dental.

AdLib : CL – Same here, I can take a lot of pain but having one tooth worked on a week after the other, I was kind of at my limit.

AdLib : KT – That must have been a bit of a shock when it happened! Man!

choicelady : AdLib – he can. He came BACK after term limits and can, indeed, stand one more term. I cannot understand why unions support him since he’s screwed them time and time again. The REAL force at work in Sacramento is MRS. Effing Brown. What a freaking bitch she is! Her father was an ally of George Romney, so figure where HER head is.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, a good thing is that many dentists aren’t afraid to prescribe Vicodin. It helps immensely.

choicelady : AdLib – sorry about your poor teeth! I am NOT a sissy about pain, but I still hate dentists! I’ve had really poor care, and the problems I’ve had don’t come from MY neglect but that – I’ve had only 6 cavaties in my life but have had 4 root canals and several teeth pulled from bad dentistry. Yuck.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I amazed that the super glue has held now for nearly two years. When my upper plate broke, it was not only one of the weirdest feelings, but it prompted me to come up with a solution, quickly. A lot of people who don’t have dentures, really underestimate the value of real teeth.

choicelady : KT – that is waaaay beyond the help of “Dent Temp”! Do you qualify for VA? They DO provide denture help. (At least in Buffalo at that VA medical center.)

AdLib : So will Brown run for re-election…or can he since he’s served before?

AdLib : CL – Before he was elected, I had no idea how heartless he was.

choicelady : AdLib – Nope. Not for Medi-Cal recipients.

KillgoreTrout : CL, my dentures are just wearing out now. My entire upper plate broke intwo, oddly enough, when I was biting into a bacon sandwhich. I super glued the two pieces together. I have to get new ones, because I know the upper plate will break again.

AdLib : CL – So then I hope dental coverage will be put back into coverage?

choicelady : THE single biggest obstacle to providing adequate help to those in dire need is Jerry Brown. He never met a cut he did not love. What a maroon. He won’t restore the optional Medicaid benefits at all. We now have an extra $4 BILLION and he won’t do it. Bastard.

AdLib : KT – Had a bit of dental work recently, problem with one tooth then another tooth. As much as I think I’m prepared for the pain…it still can be pretty bad.

choicelady : AdLib – I have dental insurance, but you may recall that the ‘deal’ for the budget passage with the one GOP Senator, Maldonado, was to ELIMINATE the nine ‘optional’ benefits dental being ONE of them. The others were even more important, and it’s one reason I’m over the MOON at the passage of Prop. 25 that lets us pass budgets with a simple majority. No more selling out poor people!

KillgoreTrout : I do too. Dentistry is like a torture chamber. But sadly, often times necessary. OUCH!

KillgoreTrout : Yeah Sally, I have a “Direction Card,” issued by the state of Ohio. That’s our form of food stamps.

KillgoreTrout : Hey Sue, give your grandson a hug for me. Take care and have a great weekend.

AdLib : KT – Very resourceful of you! Still hope you can get an assist in replacing them.

KillgoreTrout : CL, once the super glue dries, there is no after taste. I’m surprised they’ve held now for nearly two years.

choicelady : KT – I have a cracked tooth (no real pain for some reason) that also is bacon resistant. It’s the only thing that gives me trouble. Of course I COULD get it fixed, but I hate dentists!

KillgoreTrout : CL, the taste is about the same, it’s the chewing that is in question! And biting. I can’t eat a bacon sandwich now, and that kills me!

SallyT : I guess Food Stamps fall in that area with Medicaid and such. Some states work more with their citizens than others.

choicelady : Sue – say hi to him from all of us!

SueInCa : Oh everyone will hear lol I am not shy now I really gotta go my grandson is staring at me lol

choicelady : ‘Night Sue – sweet dreams, no CPI to be seen!

AdLib : Night Sue! Look forward to hearing about what you find!

choicelady : Sally – I do not understand, when food stamps are FEDERAL, why this varies by state. Just do NOT get it. CA has the lowest use rate in the NATION because the local folks deny, deny, deny before providing. They could serve three people more by serving, serving, serving, serving. But they don’t. And there is no reason for it. It costs the state NOTHING.

SallyT : Anything is possible, Sue.

SueInCa : Ok I will take a look at all of those sites. I must sign off for now though. Night eveyone. I will take all of that and read read read on Sunday. I may come away with a new perspective….. .who knows

KillgoreTrout : CL, it’s really a brilliant move by Obama. The last thing the GOP would agree to is a tax increase, only if it was done through eliminating loopholes.

choicelady : KT – LOL!!! That must make your food taste really yucky!

SallyT : Sue, you can look it up on AARP, too.

choicelady : Sally – I agree, but remember that to get the chained CPI, the GOP would have to agree to tax increases for the rich.

KillgoreTrout : Sally, that is true. I was really surprised when the state gave me 16 bucks a month in FS. I didn’t even apply for them. All I wanted was help in paying for replacement dentures. The current dentures I have are held together with….super glue.

AdLib : Sue – The WH site will have a lot of info up, no doubt, about the Chained CPI proposal once his budget is released.

choicelady : KT – in a world of total irony, that means OHIO is more progressive on food stamps than is CA. So much for our image… People here on disability, less than you are making, also are barred from FEDERAL food stamps like THAT makes any sense! I’m glad you get them, but you deserve MORE than $16 per MONTH!

SallyT : I am sorry, CL, but I don’t have that much faith in things not going to happen. The sequester happened and people are starting to feel the pain. That wasn’t going to happen either, remember?

AdLib : CL – My pleasure! Very interesting to see how small many of the raises are.

SallyT : Food Stamps vary by state, KT. I have a friend in MO that can’t get them. But, you can here.

choicelady : Sue and Sally – I’d go to our ally, Thepeoplesview.n et. There is an article today – very good – and a link to an earlier one. It’s quite clear. This is a PACKAGE deal. Deaniac explains it well.

choicelady : Sally – I know, but the amount of disinformation about chained CPI is HUGE, and honestly – it’s NOT worth getting angry over since it is not going to happen until hell entirely freezes over and Boehner gets a heart. And even if it DID it would BENEFIT lower income recipients the way it’s being set forth. I am furious at the disinformation that is making people angry and scared!

KillgoreTrout : CL, I am on disability and I get 16 dollars a month in food stamps. I didn’t even apply for FS. I applied for medicaid to get some dental work done. I have to pay in to medicaid a certain amount before i can get a medicaid card. Just by applying for medicaid, they also decided to give give food assistance. Don’t ask me why. I have no idea.

AdLib : Sue – Didn’t understand, who should tell who to come back with a satisfactory proposal? I do agree that when Obama releases his budget, he needs to do a full court press on explaining how the Chained CPI proposal will work and how, combined with the benefits of the ACA, seniors will be in a far better financial situation than they were in the past.

SueInCa : CL where can we get the best info? If you don’t mind could you send me a link via email? I will go out and see what I can find but who to trust?

choicelady : Sally – if you are on SSD, chained CPI doesn’t even APPLY to you! And yeah – it may be a CA thing. We’re so progressive and all…

AdLib : Everyone: Check out this link, it shows the COLAs that have been given (or not given) each year: «link»

SueInCa : Adlib I might answer that question, he should tell them to eff off and come back with a satisfactory proposal. I am serious, either that or he should be out there explaining the situation not letting it go to the rumor mills. MoveOn was back at it again today. Why does he leave it to us to fight those battles?

SallyT : That food stamp thing must be a state issue because I am on SSD and i can get food stamps.

choicelady : Sue – seniors have NEVER been guaranteed raises. Not ever. I was going to look up how often we GOT a COLA but have not done it yet. I will let you know. Your base is guarateed. The COLA is entirely by fiat and whim. It is NOT promised. For years people on SSD – disability – did not get COLAs. The amount KT is getting is $300 more than my neighbor who gets ONLY $800. So it’s the people on disability – and they are barred from food stamps – who are REALLY screwed.

AdLib : Sue – This is why ironically, fighting against Obama’s proposal is fighting for Congress giving no raises in any year they choose not to. So people are arguing to leave their fate on getting raises to Paul Ryan? Yep.

choicelady : KT – bingo. Very well said. Sally – you are guaranteed a base payment. That won’t change. You are NOT guaranteed a COLA and nowhere in the right to SSI can you find that. What a chained CPI would do is guarantee that for the first time AND, since we’d only get it if the GOP agreed to more taxes, your BASE WOULD INCREASE above what it now is. You are NOT guaranteed a COLA. You would be with chained CPI.

SueInCa : CL we were not getting ss then but did I feel for the ones who were not getting raises and I spoke loudly about it. I am not thinking of myself, we will have two ssi payments others will not. I guess I don;t understand why people think it ok for seniors not to get raises yearly.

AdLib : Sally – What should Obama use instead to get Repubs to move?

SallyT : You know, CL, that is what upsets me the most…HE IS USING IT! Bullshit! Use something else to get the Republicans to move. They won’t so why gamble with SS.

KillgoreTrout : Sue, that would be appreciated. I look at it like this. In one hand you what you’ve been getting monthly since January. In the other hand you have 0, nothing. You can’t ake something from nothing. 2014’s increase is not yet decided. So what you are getting right now, what you have in one hand, you will continue to get. What you don’t have in the other hand will be determined in the future. You haven’t lost a thing.

AdLib : Sally – This proposal is part of an overall budget which you can find at the WH site. The overall budget includes this compromise but also requires closing tax loopholes, taxing tobacco for Head Start, financing for infrastructure, etc. Obama is not going to agree to Chained CPI without getting what he wants so it’s not giving anything up without getting something substantial. Deals can’t be made if both sides say, “Our way or the highway” and not making a deal on the budget will be very bad for those on SS and everyone else.

choicelady : Sally and Sue (the names of my cousins, just for information) this won’t happen because he is using it to PROVE the GOP won’t say yes to one damned thing. It’s not worth getting angry over ESPECIALLY if you did not get furious at the loss of the TOTAL COLA two years ago!

SallyT : I don’t care about your age, CL. I do care that this is an issue that was promised to me that it would not be on the table and it is again.

SueInCa : If it were me Sally, I would tell them to go to hell. Obama has no skin in the game, he leaves with his full salary in three years. BUT he is responsible to insure that the party is protected.

choicelady : Sally – I do, my husband does not. OK I’ve just outed myself on age. Obviously I don’t – I have his pension, too. But I have dozens of single women friends whose fortunes I work for who are solely dependant on SSI. I am paying VERY close attention since when they did not get the existing COLA I became their bank! I also know that the $3 per month less you’d get on chained CPI is offset by the free Medicare services – it was calculated together. I also – and you – got a REDUCTION in our part B cost precisely as part of that package. For my freinds whose Part B is Medi-Cal (Medicaid) that’s less obvious, but they do NOT have copays for dozens and dozens of their medical bills – and that is PART of the overall effort to raise up the purchasing power of SSI for very low income seniors.

SallyT : I am right behind you, Sue. I have nothing to contribute to this conversation and my time is needed else where. Good night.

SallyT : Sue, I agree that this isn’t clear and people have many doubts. Primarily why is it even being included when the Republicans have given nothing at all these last 5 years.

AdLib : CL – I totally complicated this. What I was trying to say is, that if Obama’s proposal guaranteed COLAs, just one or two years of Congress refusing increases would end up as depriving seniors of far more money than Chained CPI.

SueInCa : Dang I need to leave. I am still not convinced this is a good thing but I always research for myself and will figure it out. Then you can bet I will pass on that info…..

AdLib : Sally – It is Congress who decides whether SS recipients get raises. Is it a better situation to have raises at the whims of Repubs in Congress or have them guaranteed?

choicelady : OK AdLib – my eyes just rolled into the back of my head. I do NOT do math! The amount that a chained CPI would take from someone getting the typical $1100 per year is about $36 a year – $3 less on this low interest/low CPI status. In 1970 when cost of living soared to 20% – they’d have gotten a 20% COLA. Might do again God forbid! But it beats the capacity of Congress or whoever makes these decisions NOT to give us a COLA at ALL.

SueInCa : I can see a whole buttload of people out there that need to be convinced this is not going to end up bad for seniors. I am not so worried about myself, we planned for retirement but others are not as fortunate. But I can tell you the measly amount we get now would never be enough with House payments, Utilities, Car maintenance, Insurance(of all types), groceries, etc etc. So I do feel for the ones who have little to supplement.

SallyT : CL, do you live on SS?

choicelady : Sally – it is not a loss! When you can be denied a COLA 100% as we have been, then changing the formula but guaranteeing the payment is a WIN.

AdLib : Whoops, a little confusing. What I left out was, if 2009 and 2010 were under the Chained CPI proposal and assuming COLA increases each year at 3% instead of zero as happened under the current structure, recipients would have received $460 more per year, $920 over two years.

SallyT : It is a loss as I stated.

KillgoreTrout : Sally I agree with you on that. He is breaking a promise, just in the sense of SS and medicare supposedly being untouchable.

KillgoreTrout : Sally, looking to recieve is not the same as having.

choicelady : Sue – every single working person is having their income stagnate. If we were – and we won’t – actually to get cooperation from GOP on tax increases, then PBO would raise the lower ends of the SS payments to ABOVE poverty level for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY. That protects the lower income people with no other sources of income. From there the chained CPI would be added to a MUCH LARGER BASE. That’s all GOOD.

AdLib : CL – Right, my bad. Just using 3% as a base figure for raises. Here’s something to consider, in 2009 and 2010 there were no COLA raises, that means that over $1,000 in raises, assuming 3%, were not received. If instead, SS recipients were guaranteed COLAs and received $80 less than that $1,000 over two years, they would be up $920.

KillgoreTrout : There is no guarantee that inflation will rise. It probably will but we do not know that for sure. Hell, it could go down a bit.

SallyT : The main issue I have here is that you are saying this is a game to get the Republicans to agree to tax adjustments. Use something else to play games with. The President said that SS was off the table and that is where it should be.

KillgoreTrout : Take care Murph.

KillgoreTrout : Exactly CL.

SueInCa : Later Murph, take care

choicelady : “Night Murph! Lovely to see you however briefly!

SueInCa : Ok so it is not a cut, but who except the poor have their annual salaries stay stagnant because that is what it will do to seniors. CL I said the increases were for 2011/2012 effective for 2012 and 2013

choicelady : Sally – it can give people MORE if the CPI increases. It’s not a firm figure or even a firm rate. Honest.

SallyT : You can cut something you are looking to receive. It is a loss regardless.

KillgoreTrout : Sally COLAs are not guaranteed. We get them by the decisions in Congress and the POTU’s approval. You can cut something you didn’t have to begin with.

MurphTheSurf3 : Hate to bug out in the midst of this fascinating debate. Pretty clear to me that have studying to do…..thanks all and good night.

choicelady : KT – Mmmmwaaahh – thank you! It can’t be a cut when you already were cut! You can’t cut what you don’t have.

SallyT : It is an increase that is there to help with the rising costs. It is a cut regardless.

choicelady : ADLib – I agree with the loss, but the AMOUNT is also highly variable based on the CPI. Remember back in the 1970s when inflation was off the charts? CPI was off the charts and SS recipients got HUGE COLA increases. It’s not a fixed amount EVER. That’s why it’s tied to the consumer price index.

AdLib : The key is that those who can’t afford any reduction are protected from it and those that can, receive it.

SallyT : CL, true in 2009 and 2010 there was no increases.

KillgoreTrout : CL, you’re preaching to the choir. I said earlier that it is NOT a cut. How can you cut something you haven’t recieved in the first place. COLAs are not guaranteed.

choicelady : Sally and Sue – I have other freinds on SS who did not get increases. Can’t explain that. But if you did – HOORAY! Maybe they had some reason that was peculiar to them. But for sure 2009 and 2010 – no COLA.

AdLib : CL – You make a great point. In the years when people have gotten no increases, they have lost $45 a month. This plan would guarantee COLAs so in the end, even with Chained CPI, those on SS could wind up with much more monthly income over the years due to the restructuring.

SallyT : It is a big deal to me.

SallyT : I didn’t either Sue.

choicelady : KT – of course we don’t like the chained CPI, and I have no problem pushing with Sanders, but it is NOT a cut, and with the base actually doing BETTER with higher INCOME in SS, I’m not slavering over chained CPI. I’m slavering over the capacity of Congress, Budget, Administration to deny COLAs NOW.

SueInCa : Well I did not imagine the increases we got over the past two years.

SallyT : I have gotten an increase the last two years.

AdLib : My mother is on SS and she noted that this year was the first time in several years she has gotten an increase in her SS.

choicelady : Sally – I don’t think I understand what you just wrote?

choicelady : KT – no SSD and SSI actually draw from two separate pools of money IN the Social SEcurity trust. (OK – I just exhausted my knowledge…)

SueInCa : I am confused then, what are the increases we have been getting the past two years?

KillgoreTrout : BTW, I did sign a petition with Bernie Sanders to not implement CPI! That’s about all I can do.

choicelady : Sue – no you did not. No COLA in 2011 and 2012 only in 2013. You did NOT get a COLA.

SallyT : That is lowering the amount of income that makes the rich have to contribute.

AdLib : CL – On the same page as you. It is a political maneuver that won’t happen because the Repubs would have to agree to tax increases. How likely is that to happen? And when 2014 comes without Chained CPI in place but with a view of Repubs as stubborn and Dems as working for the country, how will things be if the Dems take over the House?

choicelady : Sue – using the chained CPI is NOT A CUT. The BASE is secure since it’s based on your earnings, period. It would marginally slow the rate of cost of living increase (about $3 per month in SOME INSTANCES) which now are NOT guaranteed anyway. As noted – for the past 4 years, SSI got NO cost of living adjustment (COLA), so you can’t “cut” what you already do not have!!! Chained CPI would ride with an increase for those at the bottom to lift them above the poverty level AND would be more certain for them. For those of us in higher income brackets, it might, yes, be less certain we’d get a COLA.

SallyT : There are other ways to increase SS after 2036. You lower the amount on the rich contributing for one thing.

KillgoreTrout : CL, glad you could join us. My mother is on regular SS for someone 65 and older. Her raises are almost identical to mine. We are both, technically recieving SS. Mine is SSDI, but it really isn’t that different tham what my mom recieves. It all comes out the SS trust fund, no?

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- thanks for the broader view

SueInCa : cl we have been getting our cost of living increase in Tony’s ss……???? 2011 and 2012

SallyT : I got an increase last year.

AdLib : Sally – Than what happens when SS can’t continue at all?

SueInCa : KT – Disability has greater probability of receiving COLAs than does Social Security. Different pool of money. Then what does this one mean?

choicelady : Murph – First, this is a bargaining tactic with the GOP. They have to promise to raise taxes. They won’t. So we won’t have chained CPI. But even it -MIRACLE – they did and we did have chained CPI, it would go a long way to guarantee COLAs for Social Security as opposed to their being whim. Since NO COLAs for the past 4 years is now the NORM, chained CPI and guarantees is lookin’ pretty damned good to me. I have friends who’ve been on SSI since they were 62 – no COLAs for them.

SallyT : I don’t think SS should be on the table period. One opening will not stop with these people. And game playing doesn’t work either. It certainly didn’t work with the sequester that everyone said no one would go for so it won’t happen.

AdLib : Sue – Nope, CL just affirmed that it is not a bad deal.

SueInCa : I want to see for myself and I will try to find something that is not biased but from what I have heard, we are getting the shaft and I think CL just confirmed it? SS gets a cut but SS disability does not? Is that what you are saying CL?

AdLib : Hey CL! Thanks for clarifying that! Lots of concern out there without having all the facts on the table.

choicelady : KT – Disability has greater probability of receiving COLAs than does Social Security. Different pool of money.

AdLib : Sue – This is not cutting what you get on SS, it is reducing the raises but not on those who can’t afford it.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I can only talk about my increase this year. It was twenty bucks. I was getting 1202, now i get 1220.

BourneID : TS You disappeared now you’re back. Read the note to Sally and see if you think that might work. Okay? I’ll for your answer then sign off again.

choicelady : And so how are you all now that you know how I am!!!

SueInCa : are any of you collecting SS right now? Because that 45 a month is a dream. No way, we got an increase of 26 dollars a month. So that goes down to 22 and change? And then what happens when they come back for more?

choicelady : Hi- Just got back from an all day hair on fire discussion of how PBO is selling us out on Chained CPI. Let me make ONE point on COLAs – in 2009,2010,2011, 2012 there were NO COLA increases. PBO proposes first to raise the MINIMUM base to above POVERTY level, then guarantee COLAs for the lower income SSI recipients. That is sooooo much better than what we have now, it’s not even funny. But hair on fire faux lefties spent my entire effing afternoon LYING about it all and diverting everyone from other issues. BAH!!!

SallyT : Okay, Bourne! I will ask him to do that. Thank you.

AdLib : Sue – I understand that and I appreciate that some people are barely making it (or not even making it without going into debt each month) on what they’re currently getting. This is why Obama has in his plan an adjustment that would protect those who can’t afford that reduction in raises. Wouldn’t that work? And if in exchange for better off people getting $3.75 less a month, we could get greater tax revenues and spending on schools, infrastructure and jobs, wouldn’t that be a reasonable compromise?

SallyT : That is an accumulating figure. You will be adding that year to year. Cost will not stop rising.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, it is for me. In January, my disability went up 3%, which is twenty bucks more. I was getting 1202 per month, now I am gettin 1222. That’s twenty bucks.

BourneID : Sally I came back. I thought Murph might still be here. I was going to suggest that when his friend hangs the poster with the roll of paper, ask him to take a picture with his cell, email it to Murph who can upload it. I think that would work.

KillgoreTrout : Sue, how can you cut what you don’t have to begin with? I know this is a contentious issue, all I’m saying is that it’s not as bad as some want you to think it is. What can you get for 20 bucks today?

AdLib : KT – Just did the math on $1500/mo, it would mean that instead of a $45 increase per month, people would get a $41.25 increase a month. $3.75 less of an increase is what we’re talking about.

SallyT : Okay, again, even if it is $3.75 a month, that is still a lot. And if that is the amount, why is that an issue? That won’t reduce anything in the deficit but it will hurt the people on SS. It should not be on the table for that reason alone.

SueInCa : Adlib the issue I think that Sally is getting at, is 3.75 now, next two years, oh hey lets cut it some more, not it is 7.50 a month….and on and on. Once we lay down and give an opening, they will take advantage.

AdLib : It’s not $20/mo. That isn’t accurate.

KillgoreTrout : Sally, the national average SS payments are about 1400 a year. Three percent of that is about 0 bucks a month. I don’t like the proposal, I’m just saying that it would not be as serious as the GOP is trying to make out.

SueInCa : KT anytime you take away my Cost of living increase and COL goes up, that is a cut

AdLib : Okay, I just did the math. As an example, if one is receiving $1500/mo in SS, the raise they would receive annually under Chained CPI would be $3.75 less per month. If a provision made sure that those below a certain level of income didn’t have that taken away, wouldn’t that work?

SallyT : Hell, the climate is changing. That $20 bucks might be needed just to help with the heating bill!

SueInCa : Think the long haul here. 20 bucks might not mean much right now but if inflation and prices continue to rise as they have, it will end up being more like 100 dollars and anyone coming up is going to be vulnerable. I worked all my life for that SS and now they are going to say, you get it but only what you earned at the beginning? I was quoting Adlib’s 0.25 percent

KillgoreTrout : Sue, it’s not 25%. It’s 3% percent. And that 3% is not being taken from what you get now. That will not decrease. So it’s not a CUT.

SallyT : Future payments are just that, the future. Who is to say where we will be. This is not just seniors.

SueInCa : KT and now he is going back on his word? I trusted him and he lied.

KillgoreTrout : My point is that 20 bucks a month, future payments, is not that big a deal. I also agree with Sally, that there should be no infingement on SS and Medicare. I don’t have the answer, for sure.

SallyT : Okay, I will let you preach that it is only $20 but that is a lot to people that live on a fixed income when cost are not fixed.

SueInCa : That .25 percent is the difference in the food bank and the grocery store for some seniors.

SallyT : That is true, KT! When he was running for reelection he had it off the table and that is where it should be now!

AdLib : Sally – What do you mean it’s not $20? “On average, chained CPI is expected to grow 0.25% to 0.3% slower than the CPI measures used today.” «link» So we’re talking one quarter of one percent decrease in increases, how much would that be to the average recipient of SS?

SueInCa : KT I am not thinking of myself. I am thinking about the older person who only has ss to live on. 1500 bucks a month is not living. What are old people to do stop living? No vacations, just subsisting? I am sorry this really has my back up and not for me, we planned for retirement.

KillgoreTrout : I WILL say, that Obama did say awhile ago that SS and medicare would not be on the table.

SallyT : KT, you can not just look at yourself on this issue. This is serious and it will hurt many that aren’t as fortunate or living in an area that cost are less. People can’t just pick up and move either.

SueInCa : I agree Sally and if it is true about Obama agreeing to this, I can say I am angry

SallyT : I don’t know where those figures are coming from but they did not fall for me. My utilities went up.

KillgoreTrout : Sally, the national average is about 20 bucks a month. I will admit that my only bills are rent and utilities and food. Plus 36 bucks a month for VA mends. Maybe my situation is unique

AdLib : Sally – Yep, energy prices fell and all kinds of consumer goods fell in price. Do you think the Obama Admin wasn’t being accurate in their representation of the rate of inflation?

SallyT : I don’t think there should be any opening to SS. A small opening will just grow bigger and bigger. There is no need for it.

SallyT : I am sorry, KT, but it is not $20 a month for me.

AdLib : KT – I know how people are living SS check to SS check and even a little reduction due to inflation can matter. Those people need protection. Those who have half a million dollars in their IRAs and/or homes will be just fine under Chained CPI. The whole thing is, if we get meaningful economic stimulus and infrastructure spending in exchange for it, I think it is a chip to be bargained. If not, then it should not be pushed forward.

KillgoreTrout : Sally, we are only talking about 20 bucks a month. It would not be the catastrophy the GOP is saying it will. I live on a little less than 15k a year and still save a hundred bucks a month.

SallyT : What prices deflated? Not food! Not utilities! Not housing! Maybe the housing prices fell but not housing.

SallyT : The President and the Dems need to fight for this not take a seat. That will lose it for them.

AdLib : The 3% raise is based on inflation and due to the economic collapse, prices actually deflated so there was no increase in SS. Last year, as part of the recovery, prices rose and thus the 3% increase.

AdLib : Sally – If Obama and the Dems were seen as intransigent as the Repubs and that resulted in a Repub Pres and Congress…your SS could even be privatized and shrunk. Sometimes, you have to play to win the big game even if it means worry for some folks in the short term.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, my increases have amounted to about twenty bucks, usually. It’s not something that equals life or death like the GOPers are trying to portray. I do think that people on SS and disability and Medicare should not be the target of “belt tightening.” I think Obama has something up his sleeve.

SallyT : KT, there wasn’t any for about 3 years. It hurt.

SallyT : I am sorry but my Social Security is not a chess game for me.

SallyT : Who is considered poor? I just heard Bernie Sanders say that this is a dangerous provision. I trust him more than the President on this particular issue.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- have you caught Maher tonight – one his best shows- sharp debate on the very issue you brought up- the Obama maneuvers…what is real…what is shadow?

AdLib : Sally – Just posted this, the Chained CPI won’t impact those who are poor, there is a provision to keep it from hitting them.

SallyT : The CPI effects too many, not just seniors, but disabled and veterans. That $30+ a month is very, very, very important. The cost of living is always going up.

AdLib : KT – Exactly! First, cutting the size of future increases is not a cut of benefits but it would hurt the poor…unless there was a provision that essentially erased the cuts for the poor…and there is such a provision in Obama’s proposal! So, Chained CPI would only shrink increases for people who are doing okay and not dependent on such increases. Not what we would desire but not a cut that will really hurt people.

KillgoreTrout : No biggie Sally. I have read many things written about what a transformation came about in Bobby after his brother was killed. RFK idolized Jack.

SallyT : I don’t like it and I don’t like it being used as a political move. Things happen. Just like no one would go forward with the sequester when it was being written and look what happened.

KillgoreTrout : AD, the media is saying Obama wants SS and Medicare benefits cut. That is simply not true. How can you cut something that hasn’t happened yet. CPI pertains to future cost of living raises in SS.

SallyT : Oh, I’m sorry KT, I thought you said JFK and I thought you meant his brother Joseph being killed in the war.

SallyT : Night Bourne!

KillgoreTrout : Bobby wasn’t very old when he was slain.

AdLib : Night Bourne!

BourneID : Okay. I really have to leave or I’ll miss my bus…. Have a good weekend all.

AdLib : How about all the anger on the Left towards Obama over his inclusion of Chained CPI in his upcoming budget? He knows that the Repubs would refuse to accept it if it meant ending loopholes and adding taxes on the wealthy. It’s a clever political move IMO, makes him and the Dems look reasonable and willing to compromise and makes the Repubs look more extremist and belligerent. I think it hurts them in 2014.

KillgoreTrout : Sally, I agree, but his brother’s death really made him think about life and our place in it. He was devastated by his brother’s murder. It made him start thinking about those less fortunate. It’s a god damned shame he too was murdered.

SallyT : Oh, Murph, that sounds exciting! I will be very interested in hearing the ones he chose and how others commented.

MurphTheSurf3 : Bourne- well I will ask. He is much smarter than I am in matters of this kind.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally- he has put a long roll of poster paper alongside it and has asked for “graffiti responses” –

SallyT : KT, I think some of that came with age, too. I think he just needed to get his direction and he choose well.

BourneID : MTS O don’t know his process but just wondered if the entire piece is in a computer would it be possible to copy or cut and paste…

SallyT : Murph, I don’t know about getting them on a poster but it ain’t easy getting them on here.

KillgoreTrout : Sally, the Kennedys are true liberals/progres sives. JFK started out a little conservative, but after his brother’s murder, he immersed himself in the philosophy of Plato, Aristotle, Aeschulus and others who were on the side of good in human nature.

AdLib : Murph – Second that request from Bourne, it would be cool to see a picture of the poster hung up.

MurphTheSurf3 : Bourne- I can ask him, but I have a feeling this involves some graphics program that transposes selected objects onto a poster printer….doubt it will fit. But I can ask.

SallyT : Murph, you tell him for me that I am very flattered and thank you for letting me know. I will be interested in hearing how his poster is received.

BourneID : MTS Thanks for this. And, BTW, re your friend who is putting together the posters – since Vox sayd upload photos or whatever, would it be possible for you to do that so we can all see it? If not here, then on the home page? i’d really like to see what he’s done.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally- he tells me that he is putting the poster up on the wall outside his office with crediting you and the Planet for the work.

SallyT : The Kennedys were a family of privilege and some still are but they were always looking to help those less fortunate.

AdLib : Murph – So Sally’s fan base is growing!

AdLib : Hey Sally!

SallyT : Murph, I am glad I could help him!

MurphTheSurf3 : Bourne- here is the note….Bourne left this message about Caroline earlier and it did not post. The Kennedy’s are always so full of promise- and sometimes the promise is predictive of performance. I like the new Kennedy in Congress- a crusader.

AdLib : So, on a totally different topic, what’s the landspeed record for the GOP promising to be more inclusive then hurling racial slurs, anti-women and anti-minority legislation and refusing to follow what 90% of Americans want on gun control? Do they really believe they have a prayer of winning the WH in the foreseeable future?

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally- I got the greatest note from one of my listserv buddies re. your efforts. He took his 10 favorites and work computer magic to put them on a poster- all on one topic from a global perspective….h e says he is going to do it every week…he is a former student and now a professor.

KillgoreTrout : Glad you could join us Bourne.

BourneID : MTS Just got to the door when I saw your question. No. I didn’t see a Kennedy note.

KillgoreTrout : Well, he certainly was never a Curious George.

MurphTheSurf3 : Bourne- taa taa….did you see my Kennedy note?

AdLib : Night Kes, take care and sleep well!

SallyT : Bourne, you get the tab and I got the tip.

AdLib : Bourne – Great to see you, have a wonderful weekend!

KillgoreTrout : Have a good one kes.

MurphTheSurf3 : AB- can’t tell you how encouraging your words are.

KillgoreTrout : Sleep tight AB.

AdLib : Take care AB! And if it’s not inconvenient, can you turn TX blue by 2016?

BourneID : I am fading rapidly people. It has been fun, stimulating, interesting, and Sunday morning Sally T will recap everything that’s happened this week, in her inimitably brilliant way, which means I don’t have to read NYT – thanks Sally. Good night all. Enjoy the week except by the 15th we may all need food stamps. Had my taxes done yesterday. I know the country’s broke but did i have to pick the tab?

kesmarn : Likewise, friends. Time to call it a day. Have a great weekend! G’night, Frennie!

AdLib : KT – GW Bush comes across to me as a very typical silver spoon kid. Spoiled, entitled, no need to learn or strive, everything was handed to him and the more he failed, the higher he rose. A spoiled idiot from beginning to end.

AlphaBitch : I’m with FC and Sabreen. I’m wiped out. Love you all!! See you soon.

kesmarn : G’night, Sabreen. Rest well.

KillgoreTrout : Have a great weekend FC.

AlphaBitch : Why we are working on it, Ad. Ted Cruise Control even said that Texas can turn from red to blue in the next few years, and if that happens, they will never again see the WH. As Jenn Brown said – it’s the only time I have ever agreed with Ted Cruz about anything.

KillgoreTrout : I wonder about GW’s IQ, because his dad was definitely not stupid. I think GW started out with at least an average intelligence, and just fried too many brain cells.

AdLib : Night Sabreen! Sleep well!

Sabreen60 : Night Foodchain! I’m out too. Have a great weekend and week everybody.

MurphTheSurf3 : Bourne left this message about Caroline earlier and it did not post. The Kennedy’s are always so full of promise- and sometimes the promise is predictive of performance. I like the new Kennedy in Congress- a crusader.

SallyT : Rainy, KT, rainy.

AdLib : Night Foodchain! Have a great weekend!

KillgoreTrout : Hey gal from the great North West. How’s it going?

Sabreen60 : Good night Kes.

AdLib : AB – It’s got to be frustrating to be from TX and have so many tools representing the state. Still, there are some great Dems there, even if they are temporarily in the minority. Really behind your push to turn TX blue, it would make such a big difference for the better in the lives of most Texans and the nation as a whole if Repubs had to face they could never win the WH again without being reasonable.

kesmarn : G’night, food!

AlphaBitch : Cuz they don’t KNOW they are idiots, Frennie. It’s why I feel compelled to ‘splain it to them myself…

foodchain : take care all. Glad to have had the time

kesmarn : We might be waitin’ for a while, Frennie. They are not big on ‘splainin’ their idiocy.

SallyT : KT, can you burn out a dry cell? I think Bushie’s were dry to begin with.

AlphaBitch : He may run for Gov – and may even win here from sheer name recognition/stub bornness – but I don’t think he is good to go on the national stage again (or agin, as Perry would say)

AlphaBitch : Maybe, Ad – but who will fund him????? None of the $$ Repubs I know. They hang their heads and shake them in shame when his name is brought up now. BIG diff from when he first set foot on the stage…..

kesmarn : It would be so wonderful if they’d run Perry. An aardvark could beat him.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, burn out often appear to be idiots, and are. They’ve damaged too many brain cells. That may be just the reason the GOP wanted him as pres. Somebody very easy to manipulate.

AlphaBitch : KT: And from A&M!!! Perry was a “yell leader”. Google it. The most stupid thing. Ever.

AdLib : AB – I’ve heard that Perry wants a shot at national redemption and wants to run for Pres again in 2016. And he would want to do so not as an Ex-Gov but as a sitting Gov. The man is an idiot so I wouldn’t put past him the idea that he can win both Gov and the Presidency.

foodchain : AD, Bush is the son of a rich man with very little to do but sit in the chair

kesmarn : I think there’s a difference between “smart” and “cunning.” Bush was cunning.

AlphaBitch : Ad and KT: There was an article in TX MOnthly when W. ran (and beat) Ann Richards about him that did give me pause. But he proved that wrong in choosing and then listening to Cheney.

KillgoreTrout : What says it all for me is that Perry majored in Animal Husbandry and only graduated with a C grade point.

AdLib : KT – There was an anti-intuitive meme going around when Bush was Pres that he really wasn’t an idiot…I didn’t believe it then and I sure don’t now. Have you seen his self-portraits of himself in the bathtub? The work of a brilliant man?

AlphaBitch : I would be very surprised if the powers let Perry run again. I still can’t believe that Kay Bailey Hutchison lost to him! And neither can the smart Repubs I know, now that Perry has stood on a national stage and made a frickin’ fool of himself.

KillgoreTrout : I really think Perry is dumber than Bush. I think Bush had a decent IQ, but burned himself out with booze and coke. Classic burn out symptoms.

AdLib : AB – Despite all the hype, George P Bush may be a darling in TX but forget nationally, he’s still a Bush and the rest of the nation is done with them. BTW, do you think Perry will run again? His numbers are in the toilet, could give an opening for a Dem!

AlphaBitch : Down ballot candidates are of key importance in energizing the base down here, and we don’t have many good ones for school board, etc.

foodchain : AB, 17, no place to go. I know quite a few who will say they made this decision. The point of Roe v Wade is that women do need this protection

BourneID : Has Caroline Kennedy been officially nominated as Ambassador to Japan as was reported a few days ago? Interesting. It will be interesting to see if the Kennedy magic returns – not that they’re all magical, but there’s that tendency to believe they are. I’m surprised that she would consider this

AlphaBitch : Perry won’t/can’t. He embarrassed the entire state, and is not able to win. Who would fund THAT?

KillgoreTrout : AB, you made a lawful and very personal choice. Who (besides the fundies) could fault you for that? What you are doing now is tremendously good.

kesmarn : Despite what RWNJs say, Frennie, as you’ve said — it’s almost 100% of the time a tough decision. Who does this recreationally? No one except in their paranoid dreams.

AlphaBitch : Ad: that I am. Mouthy bitch. Or Lotus Blossom, depending on the day……..

AlphaBitch : So who will the Reps run in 2016? Rubio, Paul, – who else? Ryan has used his wad. Cantor is too whiny.

AdLib : AB – You misunderstand, it’s liking you because you are outspoken and brave.

AlphaBitch : Don’t like me BECAUSE of it. Like me in SPITE of it. It was a very hard decision, not an easy “oh what the hell -let’s go” type of deal. But without my own children (and I chose not to have them – always very, very carefully practicing birth control after that), I had time and energy for those 70 Afghan chirrens I got.

KillgoreTrout : Ha! Speaking of O’Reilly, he recently gave laura Ingrahm a real dressing down for attacking him for calling anti-gay marriage people “bible thumpers.” I’m surprised he did…”cut her mic!” The only time I ever cheered for Billo.

AdLib : KT – Indeed, abused kids can learn that they have permission to express their hostility verbally and physically from their abusive parents. That cycle is well documented and Hannity fits right into it.

foodchain : AB, I think most people prefer an honest person to person talk than the hyperbole that we engage in. I tool a very long and windy path to adulthood that I’m glad to say I survived. Kids are put upon bu adults without any thoughts. I think there are a lot of stories that “normal” peole have

AlphaBitch : Oh Ad: Pootie Gingrich just can’t stand to be away from that hot box!

AdLib : AB – One of the many reasons to like you!

AdLib : FC – I think the Newtster may have to take a pass next time around, his wife barely let him off the leash to campaign this time around, I doubt she’s willing to let him do it again.

BourneID : KT I used to watch Fox, then I reactivated my brain and changed channels. I never liked Hannity and disliked him even more when CSPAN did a live broadcast of a speech he gave Someone in the audience asked him a question he did like and said, “Are you a democrat?” The man asked difference it made. Hannity asked the same question over and over again. He is truly a nasty piece of work. Even Bill O’Reilly is decent once in awhile…not often but it’s noticeable when he does.

AlphaBitch : I love Warren, have since the day I first heard her.

kesmarn : You are a brave one! But then we all knew that.

AlphaBitch : Frennie: I’m not ashamed. It was when I was in my 20s. Heck, I even told my whole Sunday School class once when they starting riffin’ on it. Shut them up, and many came and “confessed” to me later and two men stood up and applauded. One is a hard core conserv. I just think, it’s best to speak up.

KillgoreTrout : Ad it also says something about his “bully,” nature. The abused often turn out to be abusers themselves. Even if it is only verbal.

AdLib : Murph – True but it would be a battle of the titans, Warren is a true populist and it could end up like 2012 where Wall Street and the Kochs may throw a billion dollars out to defeat her…but the people still vote her in anyway.

AlphaBitch : FC: It’s been interesting, chatting with some conservafriends and being honest. It seems to really settle them somehow. Don’t know if people talk honestly, but I have nothing to hide. I make all my decisions consciously.

foodchain : Ad, throw in a used Newt and you have a deal

AdLib : KT – Very good point! Not surprising that the cunning and deceptive are so at home in the GOP and so defensive af physically abusing others.

kesmarn : Frennie, I have so many close friends who’ve been there. Stand tall. The local anti-abortion crew here has just forced the local university hospital to withdraw from their contracts to provide medical back-up for the women’s health clinics here. What happens now? Return to back alley?

foodchain : AB, many more than people think. Abuse is far more common as is abortion

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I think you are correct…re. Liz as a monster progressive, but there will be a tsunami raised against her.

KillgoreTrout : Kids who are whipped (abused) by their fathers learn early in life to be cunning and deceptive. Sneaky and dishonest. That would explain a lot about Hannity.

AlphaBitch : I’m out. I had an abortion and I admit it to everyone.

BourneID : Kes, I know winners when I see them.

kesmarn : Perfect!

AdLib : Murph – The best Dems should have Wall Street as their adversaries and Warren does. She also has such a loyal and passionate national base of supporters that are motivated by Wall Street attacking her. She’ll need to build that up to run for President but if she ever became President, we’d have a shockingly progressive President. It would be so cool!

AlphaBitch : In the words of Stephanie Miller: Now don’t you fight, boys. You are ALL losers. (when referring to Ryan/Cantor/Paul et al)

foodchain : AB, too funny about Joek; “And I loved every minute of it” How he got a show to be a platform for JOE, ush

kesmarn : Bourne, you’ve got the dream team there.

AlphaBitch : MTS: I like Press, but he doesn’t piss me off enough to jump out of bed.

BourneID : Well I guess I’m back. Here’s a ticket I think is a real winner: AlphaBitch and ChoiceLady. Can you imagine the fear that would descend on the Congress?

MurphTheSurf3 : AB-+- Morning Jerkoff is a horrible way to wake up. I cannot stand the show. Bill Press has been a pleasure.

AdLib : KT – Yep, just my guess but I think she has already decided to run and for someone in her position, why wouldn’t she? If she won, she would be a bigger than life figure for little girls and women forever, as the first woman President.

AlphaBitch : OK, new drinking game. I USED to (many, many years ago – during W’s run) watch Morning Joke. I became disgusted (who wouldn’t?) and seldom watch, unless it’s the first thing I hit to wake up. We made up a new drinking game: everytime Joe refers to “when I was in Congress” or “back in 1994 when I was running”. OMG. He is Uncle Rico from Napolean Dynamite.

KillgoreTrout : FC It’s painful just bend over slightly. I’ll have to get it checked, at least.

AdLib : Kes – Yep, makes a lot of sense. Those with daddy issues would naturally be attracted to the GOP which acts like the stern, disapproving father that such types need to get affection from. Their role models are child abusers, according to Hannity. He is an authority on the GOP, I’ll take him at his word.

Sabreen60 : fc, you know what they say: “You can pick your friends, but not your family”.

BourneID : FC you are so right. How is it that we all have the same genes, but they’re all pretty stupid and I’m not…go figure This is me not talking…

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…Liz needs to build her base in MA and then we will see. Further, I think she is very focused on real Wall Street Reform. Making lots of enemies. She is going to be swamped by gigantic money next time arund.

KillgoreTrout : I guess it remains to be seen Ad. If I were her her, I’d throw in the towel and enjoy my “golden years.” But, if anything can be said about the Clintons, it would be that they are an ambitious couple.

kesmarn : I think Warren has passion (her comments on “corporations are not people, for example) and people respond to that.

AdLib : Murph – True, Warren isn’t the retail politician but she is a very down to earth, midwestern type that I think many in the South and midwest could relate to.

foodchain : Bourne, know that. You think you have family and they are poops! I still will be there but gosh, they don’t have the sense they should have been born with

AlphaBitch : OK, true story. My sister, the Rush Limbaugh, NASCAR watching hard core Republican, loves my kids from Afghanistan and loves the animal shelter she volunteers for. One of the big donors is a man from Pakistan. Her concern was he might be a “terrist”. he had a fat check and asked her to come to his home to pick it up. Nice home, treated warmly, etc. She told him how she has a “nephew” from AFG and he went wild – she said he clapped and jumped up and down, and was so happy to see that. We are now invited out to dinner at the swanky place in my home town. And my sister and I can never, ever discuss politics. But she likes Michelle and the girls, and I have heard her confess it upsets her when people are mean to them. Family. Too bad they are all sheep…

kesmarn : Was it c’lady who said a lot of GOP/TP folks are looking for the Good/Strong Daddy they never had? Hannity fits the bill.

MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- I love Liz but she is not warm…I have experienced this in a crowd…of course Hillary can be icey as well….

AdLib : Kes – I am a huge fan of Warren but it may be a little early for her to take a shot at the Presidency and probably not the best bet to go up against Hillary to be the first woman President. Though, if I had my choice of who would be Pres in 2016, I would happily choose Warren.

BourneID : MTS,, the older I get the happier I am that nobody in my family speaks to me – well, actually not true. Three nieces do but that’s because they don’t want me to remove them from the will – they have a surprise coming when they find out there’s nothing there, but at least I get invited to Thanksgiving dinner.

AdLib : AB – It’s like Sean Hannity boasting that he was whipped by his father with a belt when he was a kid “And I turned out alright!” Something about damaged people and the GOP makes for a perfect marriage.

kesmarn : I would love to see Elizabeth Warren give it a whirl.

kesmarn : I think so too, KT.

AdLib : KT – I think it is a forgone conclusion that she is running, she is doing everything now to prepare for a run except announcing. At the same time, as others have said here, there could be Hillary exhaustion by 2016 with all the MSM talk about how inevitable she is to win the Presidency and another Obama-type who is more Progressive could steal her thunder.

KillgoreTrout : kes, I’m surprised HIllary has kept going this far. She may very well be looking forward to retirement.

foodchain : KT tai chi is really good for back pain and improving general strength and flexibility

kesmarn : KT, that back pain has gone on for a bit,no? Hope you get relief soon.

MurphTheSurf3 : Bourne- in my case, it was a slow distancing process…and it hurt….To this day, she and her husband regard Bush as a misunderstood president.

AlphaBitch : Ad: Just look at poor Gohmert. You KNOW there was sumpin’ there at his conception. Not sayin’ what, but just sumpin’

kesmarn : Yes, food. And think — 8 years possibly???

BourneID : MTS, I thought I had the only family members who stopped speaking if they didn’t like your politics. My sister’s oldest son stopped speaking to me because I said Sarah Palin is a total moron (and he owes me money). This happened in September 2008, the day after john Mc introduced her as his running mate.

KillgoreTrout : Pretty good. still a nagging back pain. It has never lasted this long before. I just may have to take a trip to the VA.

foodchain : Kes, as someone pushing the same years as Hillary,four years form now, knowing how strenous the Presidency really is, I don’t know that I would do it

kesmarn : Hey, Sabreen! Good to see you.

kesmarn : I wonder if she was possibly serious about being tired and wanting to retire…?

AlphaBitch : Jenn Brown, who ran the OH campaign for Obama, spoke last night. She is committed to the TX project, and is the ED for BGTX.

Sabreen60 : Hi Kes! I stepped away and you appeared.

KillgoreTrout : She has aid,at least last year, that she has no intention of running. That may be a good thing.

AdLib : AB – Gohmert Piles really can’t get his mind off of bestiality. Limiting magazines leads to sex with animals? Only in Gohmert’s dreams I suppose.

MurphTheSurf3 : AB- yes Hill was a fine SOS- outstanding- maybe….we only know that in hindsight since so much of what State does is out of sight, out of mind and out of time. I like her. Does she inspire me? No. Does she seem as bright as Bill? No. Was she a good Senator for NY- I have heard mostly yes but not resoundingly so.

AlphaBitch : MTS: Where does your sister live? East TX? West TX? Dallas? FYI – all the metro areas (and last night someone said EVEN Dallas) went blue last election. There is hope!

kesmarn : Don’t know if anyone else has said this but — it wouldn’t surprise me if she doesn’t run!

KillgoreTrout : Hey homie! How goes it?

AdLib : Hey Kes!!!

AdLib : Murph – Yes, I saw that and I was on the same page in 2007, I supported Obama over Hillary in the primaries pretty early on, never supported Hillary and was looking for an alternative.

AlphaBitch : Yeppers Frennie. What are your thoughts?

kesmarn : Frennie, food! Are we talking Hill’s possible candidacy?

AlphaBitch : MTS: Yes, there was Obama fever and the resultant anti-fever. It was rough, tough and all that I love about TX. Fights galore. Yep, it was good to win. I just worry that Hill won’t be the same, whether or not I like her or she was a good SOS.

foodchain : Hey Kes, Treat to be here

AlphaBitch : FRENNIE!!!

AlphaBitch : KT: See if you can find a part of the clip from yesterdays show on her website.

MurphTheSurf3 : AB- I have a sister who lives in Texas…she has not spoken to me for years- Obama sealed that deal.

kesmarn : Good Friday evening, Planet peeps!

AdLib : KT – A great point you raise, the hatred towards Obama as Pres would only be continued if not increased if Hillary won since Repubs hate her so much. The only thing is, in the 2012 election, to pretend they were reasonable, many Repubs praised Bill CLinton so attacking and hating on Hillary again just for being his wife will be a very weak gambit indeed…though I have no doubt that will be what they do.

KillgoreTrout : Ha AB! I love it. Great question. I get so sick of the guns/ball bat defense.

AlphaBitch : Bourne: we grow ’em stupid here. No schooling. Think Louie Gohmert times millions. Read “As Texas Goes” by Gail Collins to stay up all night, folks. Nightmares in a book form. It’s why I now spend time volunteering for the tough politicians in the state.

foodchain : AB, I’m surprised there is no gun junk on this

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- earlier in this thread I noted that in 2007 I chose Barack over Hillary for a number of substantial reasons- most of them are still in place.

KillgoreTrout : One thing I do like about HIllary, she doesn’t take shit from anybody. People evolve with experience. I do think she would be on our side, much more than any GOPTPer. Namely Rand Paul.

BourneID : AlphaB R, J. and T are the most colossal AHoles ever to assemble .. How did Texas doe this – is the water, pollen in the air, the stuff that makes Amarillo smell so fine?

AdLib : AB – I’ll take the other side of that, I don’t think the majhority of voters care at all about the conspiracy theories over Vince Foster from 20 years ago. Just as the Repubs tried to use Obama’s distant past against him, I don’t think it will work any better against Hillary.

AlphaBitch : FC: Not a peep out of any of them. Small news items, but the gun lovers is all quiet. Saw Stephanie Miller yesterday with Carlos (the Taco Bell chihuahua voice) who decimated one of the gun nuts. simply put: if you keep bringing up all the people killed by knives and baseball bats: why the F don’t you get rid of your gun and arm yourself that way? The caller stuttered and sputtered right off the show.

MurphTheSurf3 : AB- yes I know you do, but Mo. has a legislature that is in thrall to the GOP….and our Dems are stone cold bluedog dems.

AdLib : Murph – You said it! I too want the primary to be spirited and exploring the choices and issues out there. I don’t want to see Hillary anointed either and if another candidate suddenly surges or she falters, that would be vital to Dem chances of winning and having a solid candidate. Who knows what could happen in her campaign? If she went down the path she went down in 2008, she could lose again.

AlphaBitch : KT: And we would vote for Hlll, if she were the choice. I’m just saying that there will be a lack of enthusiasm. I remember the elation of election night, with lines around the block, in my staunchily Repub neighborhood, and people whispering they were voting for OBama. That will NOT happen with Hill. Just sayin’

KillgoreTrout : Oh, I think the GOP hates Hillary more than they do Obama. It’s either hatred or fear, maybe both.

MurphTheSurf3 : Anybody else watching Real Time with Bill Maher…..????Be st in a long time.

foodchain : AB, how is TX taking these shootings?

AlphaBitch : MTS: I live in uber red state.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I chalk all that up to how politics works in this country. I did vote for Obama..twice.

foodchain : I have ahard time not liking Hillary but I have worn out on the Clinton meme. They do really good work but I never see them stand first and tall when needed. Bill did not help Obama until it was about him and Hillary? What besides traveling has happened to help Egypt, Palestine, Iraq, Afhganistan, the young girl shot in the face-Turkey. I just don’t see it

MurphTheSurf3 : AB….here in Missouri there is a an effort to mimic several other Red states in re. to strategies to limit the vote among young people in college, to limit early voting, to further control registration (i.e. Keep THEM from voting)and the ubiquitous voter id.

AlphaBitch : KT: I believe they would have (and will, given the chance) dredge up the Vince Foster thing again. The “mystery” of it all vis a vis the Hill. Will cause indies to sit it out.

AdLib : AB – Hillary is a conservative/cor porate Dem like Bill was and is so policywise, she wouldn’t be my ideal choice. But with a Dem President I think we would have more influence than a Repub who wouldn’t have any interest in what the Dem base wanted or felt.

AlphaBitch : bourne: Last night, we were to list strengths, weaknesses and opportunities. One woman stood up and said that Rick Perry, John Cornyn and mostly Ted Cruz were all strengths because it made everyone so damn mad that they represent the state that it is energizing everyone. What a hoot!

KillgoreTrout : One thing going for Hillary is her experience. She definitely knows how things work in DC.

AdLib : KT – Don’t want to get back into 2008 but as much as you may have not liked Obama going after Hillary for her vote on Iraq, what about Hillary going after Obama for what Rev. Wright said? That was way out of line, at least Obama was discussing her position on issues and her votes on national matters.

AlphaBitch : FC: Don’t get too excited. It will take a while, but after last night, I do believe it will happen. I’m becoming a Barney Fife (deputy registrar) Our lege passed a new law (with their wholly Repub govt) and we lost our deputy privileges and have to start over. Sigh. I’m taking 8 other people with me. They only hold classes once a month, and are limiting size to 40. I think there is a news story here.

KillgoreTrout : AB, I’m not sure that was the case. By the time that campaign season began, America had already began to sour on the Iraq war. There was no clear end in sight, no WMD’s were found and there was no proof that Saddam had any involvement in 911. Being agaisnt the war at that point was win win situation.

Sabreen60 : I agree Murph.

BourneID : Hi AlphaB – it was the long moment of silence which is quite unexpected at Vox. How have you been? We haven’t talked for a long time. One day I’d like to discuss Ted Cruz with you.

MurphTheSurf3 : I VERY MUCH want a strong Democratic Primary season. Our primaries tend to make our nominee stronger while the GOP tends to eat its own. Therefore NO ANOINTING OF HILLARY.

Sabreen60 : Meant: “With all the BS….

Sabreen60 : fc, yes I mentioned that along with the other great things happening in MD. We all the BS that’s going on, I’m thankful that I live in a royal blue state. We have a few crazies in the House, but not many.

AlphaBitch : KT: I would have voted for Hill, but knowing we were going down. Something said at BGTX last night: No one wants to believe their efforts are in vain.

foodchain : AB, Blue TX! WhooWhee

AdLib : Hey AB! I mentioned below as well, I wonder if Hillary would feel restrained from her more conservative and corporate leanings when thinking of her place in history as the first woman President. Once you’re in there and realize the legacy you’ll have, it can be transformative.. .it has been with other Presidents.

KillgoreTrout : I voted for Obama because he won the nomination. I would have voted for Hillary if she had won. What choice did we have?

foodchain : Sabreen, how about MD and the gun laws? Wow!

AlphaBitch : Ad: So it’s the devil you know???

AlphaBitch : FYI: I am now officially part of Battleground Texas. They asked for folks willing to “fight” to turn TX blue, and I underlined fight about a katrillion times and then added commas and two more fights.

KillgoreTrout : What’s up AB?

AdLib : Hey Sabreen! I like O’Malley. It’s possible he could stand out in debates but Hillary and Biden would seem to have name recognition on their sides as an advantage from the start.

AlphaBitch : Hi Bourne!! Maybe it was what you didn’t say…….

Sabreen60 : fc and AB we’ve got 3 years. If the MSM keeps pushing Hillary down our throats for 3 years, people may be sick of her. BTW, MD just passed super strict guns, eliminated the death penalty, marriage equality and hoping to legalize weed so they’ll stop locking up all the brown & black young men, because that’s who goes to jail.

KillgoreTrout : Bon soir Sabreen!

AlphaBitch : KT: Not to be a pill, but wouldn’t you have wanted someone who did a little independent research? Who could stand up and say “Why, this makes no sense.” I want someone in our corner not cornered by ambition or the lies of the neo-cons. And wasn’t she part of the C-Street thing???

BourneID : Is it something I said?

AdLib : FC – It is hard to deny that Hillary ran in 2008 as if she was entitled to the Presidency and the way she and Bill treated Obama, like, “How dare you have the audacity to challenge our entitlement to the Presidency?” really soured me on her. As I said though, her actions since then have made a difference and though I don’t think she would be as ideal a President as Obama, she and Bill being part of the corporate and Wall Street world, it sure would beat a President Rubio.

KillgoreTrout : One thing I did not like was Obama slamming Hillary for her Iraq vote, when he wasn’t even in the senate yet. He didn’t have the burden of choosing. I thought that was sort of a cheap shot.

foodchain : AB, the Castro brothers are terrific, some governors–O’Ma lley included are comers. They give me hope

MurphTheSurf3 : It has been interesting watching the discussion so far. In our very informed crowd there seem to be a good number of Hillary Doubters here. the Main Stream Media crowd is head over heels for her. I chose Obama over her and the reasons remain in place today.

AlphaBitch : It may just be me, but I’m not feelin’ the national love as strong anymore. I love me some Castro brothers, and a state rep named Mike Villarreal. The others are leaving me bored, to be hones.

foodchain : KT, I knew that Iraq did not attack us. The team looking for nuclear material had not found any before we said, phooey

KillgoreTrout : Ad, very possible, but she really could have been equally concerned about both her career and protecting Americans. That whole neo-con plan was successful and dishonest and devastating to our country.

foodchain : Sabreen, I LIKE O’Malley from what I’ve seen

AlphaBitch : Hi Sabreen: I like O’Malley, but not as much name recogniton.

KillgoreTrout : Of FC, i totally disagree. We were lied to big time. Espesially about WMD that the bush administration knew didn’t exist. That whole thing about Saddam trying to buy yellow cake uranium, talk about chemical and biological weapons, telling us Saddam was behind 911, or at least a participant. There is a great book about it all called “The Greatest Story Ever Sold.”

AdLib : And in the early polls at least, none of the likely Repub noms are anywhere close to Hillary or Biden. So if Biden was the nom instead, it’s all good.

AlphaBitch : Oh AdLib – you are so dear. But I think you are naive to think she has become more enlightened.

Sabreen60 : Hi Everyone. Can’t say Hillary, but I will vote her if she runs and wins the primary. Personally, I prefer Gov. O’Malley, my Governor.

foodchain : Oh gosh Ad, right on with that assenssment. How could one run a campaign so badly and expect to run a country? Staggeringly bad and assumptive

AdLib : Hey Bourne!

AdLib : KT – I don’t know, just making an assumption but considering she was married to the king of triangulating and had her eye on a Presidential run back then, I think it’s very possible that she voted with her political future in mind instead of what was best for America. I didn’t like her then, didn’t like her in the primary against Obama and saw the same ruthless political calculations then but after her turning around and supporting Obama, being his SoS and having all this experience, I remain optimistic that she has become more enlightened.

KillgoreTrout : Hey Bourne, your wish is my command!

foodchain : BourneID, what a wonderful into. Been there for months

KillgoreTrout : Well she was Secretary of State.

foodchain : KT, we were not lied to; there was plenty of evidence to the contrary; it just wasn’t expedient to vote against the war

BourneID : AL, AB, FC, KT, MTS, brilliant Sally, and mystery guests. Hello. I never thought I would ever say this, but I am completely talked out. I spent the day exchanging emails with a friend, and he just talks nonstop…but he’s great. Tonight I am the audience. Please entertain me.

KillgoreTrout : I don’t think Hillary was riling up US citizens to go to war with Iran. I think she just took a firm stance and let them know that trying to take us on would be insane.

AdLib : FC – I don’t think the attack the GOP was planning against Hillary would be as effective in 2016. It will all seem like old news then, been there done that. Still, I do think they will try to hammer her with crazy charges from 20 years before.

foodchain : I am somewhat helpless in understanding how Hillary did not involve herself in any high profile situation in the last four years. I’m not the best follower, but, Egypt?, Syria? Korea, Iran. She travelled everywhere, and I support womens’ issues more than most but what, what news did we hear in the last four years?

AdLib : KT – I agree to a degree, sometimes, all that bullies understand is a slap in the face. On the other hand, riling up the public to go to war is a whole other thing. Iraq could have been threatened without us going to war, same with North Korea. It seems so clear Kim Jong Un is just throwing a very dramatic tantrum. NK can’t afford to go to war and announcing that it will attack the US is just so drama queen.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, very possible, or she just bought into the bullshit like so many did. I don’t really know one way or the other.

KillgoreTrout : As I said, Biden certainly has the experience and is in no way some sort of cowboy.

AdLib : KT – It was a big lie but a majority of Dems voted against giving Bush the authority to go to war with Iraq. Hillary was in the minority of Dem hawks on war with Iraq and personally, I think she did it for political reasons, so she would look tough on defense and concerned that if she had voted against it, she would have been labeled by the GOP as weak when she ran in 2008.

foodchain : They will have a bigger field day with Hillary: I can’t believe that they won’t take up where they left off and the MSM will fall right in line with the righties. I don’t agree at all with this but it seems obvious for them

KillgoreTrout : Ad I think Iran, and N. Korea could use a little saber rattling. They have to no what devastation their actions would cause to their own countries.

KillgoreTrout : FC, as far as her vote in favor of disarming Saddam, all I can say is that we were all lied to. The neo-cons told us the “war,” would last six weeks, maybe six months tops. We were told that the war would be paid for with Iraqi oil. We were told we would be greeted as liberators..etc. All of that crap was a big lie.

AdLib : KT – You’re right, they will make his gaffes a big issue but just imagine how big the gaffes will be from any probable GOP candidate. Rubio, Ryan, Paul…Biden’s gaffes would be tiny compared to the flow that would come from them.

AdLib : KT – Hillary was gung ho about going to war in Iraq and during the 2008 Dem primary, rattled her saber over war with Iran.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I agree, I just think the GOP would have a field day with Biden.

foodchain : KT, her votes seem to be what the big boys say. I just am not confident about her ability to make good decisions. But who has?

AdLib : KT – Personally, I think the gotcha game the MSM and Repubs play with Biden is meaningless. He always means well and if he connects well with the public as I think he does, they will care less about that BS than the MSM.

AdLib : Hey foodchain! Oh, I’m right with you on that, I did not like Bill’s Presidency, we’re still suffering big time today because of it. I’m cautious but hopeful that the years and the onus of being the first woman President would pressure her to steer away from war and corporatism.

foodchain : I do like Joe but he has his own trail. But what GOP doesn’t have a ditch from here to forever

KillgoreTrout : Hey FC, why do you say Hillary is a hawk?

KillgoreTrout : I wonder. He certainly has the experience. He is a pretty big gaffe maker though.

foodchain : oh oh, while I’ll vote for her, let;s not forget that the Clinton’s have not made good decisions. She is a war hawk. I know we’ve elected a lot of not good men and for that, I’ll vote for her, but I can’t say her domestic and foreign policies give me hope.

AdLib : KT – What about Joltin’ Joe Biden?

KillgoreTrout : What’s up Ad?

AdLib : Hey Killgore!

AdLib : Hey Murph! Sorry for the delay, my computer locked up!

KillgoreTrout : If Mrs. Clinton decides not to run, who might be a suitable 2nd choice?

KillgoreTrout : Hey peeps!

MurphTheSurf3 : Hillary 2016! Madam President!

AdLib : Don’t forget to say “Hi!” or “Hillary 2016” when you arrive!

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then.