Several who post here have mentioned that they have been through this experience with loved ones. In the interest of educating ourselves, I wonder if those who have had this experience would share with those of us who have not experienced this.

If a child, at what age did it start? How was it handled? Any mental illness diagnosed? Other behavioral problems? How did other family members/loved ones react?

Obviously when this is a loved one, you continue to love them despite this flaw. How do you deal with them as children? How do you deal with them as adults?

In my own way, I am dealing with this now with a beloved family member. But the person is elderly and I think dementia is taking its toll. But I can see that when you catch a person in numerous outright, verifiable lies -whether dementia inspired or not - it does make you question EVERYTHING and ANYTHING they tell you. I have ended up that I take NOTHING as truth and I verify EVERYTHING. (I have also found, through verifying now, that several really important "family facts" that were told to me over the years by this person were also outright lies. So makes me wonder if this personality trait has not been long-standing and only now being found out by me.)

I would welcome as much as anyone would want to share about this.

gimmeaclue

08-08-2008, 01:36 PM

Oh my word! I am dealing with this issue now with my 21 year old daughter!
She lies about everything!!! I'm not sure what kind of disorder this is but I made an appt. yesterday with a doctor.
My daughter has several issues tho... this is only one of them.
I worry about her so much that sometimes I can barely function.
OK ENOUGH! lol

jdj8766

08-08-2008, 01:42 PM

I have a 23 year-old sister that reminds a lot of Casey. She been arrested twice in the past year for DUI and has serious drinking issues. Her social life and her friends are the only things she cares about and she lies and makes up stories constantly to keep us off her case about it.

Everytime she leaves the house, she has a different story for where she is going and then usually comes home really drunk. She lies about everything and will say anything to get to her friends and boyfriends.

The thing that I learned about patholgical liars is that they will follow through with a lie until you have 100% proven them wrong and then they will come up with another lie as soon as you confront them. It's an endless cycle and IMO, it is exactly what Casey is doing.

For example, when Casey was caught in her lie about Zenaida, her reaction was that she was lying to protect her child's life. My sister does the same thing. It is beyond frustrating.

KimF

08-08-2008, 01:43 PM

gimmeaclue - When did you notice things about her personality? Like what age? I am just curious. I have a 5 year old that sometimes "has quite an imagination" if you know what I mean. Sometimes I am curious if it is a part of being 5 or if I should be concerned.

gimmeaclue

08-08-2008, 01:55 PM

Things seemed to start around her teenage years. I feel that most of my daughters problems come from just wanting to get away with doing things that she knows are wrong.
But the thing is, is that she will lie about things that just don't matter. It is just unbelievable! It's so hard to explain here.
I just don't even know why she feels she has to.
I don't think my daughters problem has anything to do with her imagination.

Garnan

08-08-2008, 01:59 PM

My mother is, and always has been a pathological liar. She would tell the most ridiculous stories that would make her look good, or she thought would be received as humorous. Example:

"I went to the Post Office today and saw Shirley there. I told her that if she didn't stop spanking her 3 year old son with his pants pulled down in the front yard I was going to call the police and have her arrested for child abuse."

She would think that this makes her look good. If I happened to be with her, and she told an outlandish story, I would quickly add that the whole thing was untrue and that it never happened. Needless to say, she hated me. I haven't seen or spoken to her in over 10 years, but I don't doubt that she's still at it.

Her favorite thing was to tell stories about us kids and other kin. She's say "your sister said that you were driving drunk yesterday." I'd say, that's not true, I didn't even see my sister yesterday." "Well, she saw you, she told me so." So I call my sister, big fight, huge blow-up until we figure out that dear old Mom is the culprit not either one of us.

It took us girls well into our 30's to finally write her out of our lives completely. The final straw for me was when she started her tricks on my 5 year old son. I cut her out of my life completely.

It's not something that I will ever tolerate again, from anybody. My advice is to call them out when you catch them in a lie. Eventually, she tried very hard not to lie when I was present because she knew she couldn't get away with it. It was almost impossible for her to do though. She'd sooner lie than tell the truth about almost anything.

She told everybody that my elderly grandmother (Daddy's mom) was a lesbian. She knew this because she saw them necking on Gramma's couch one time. Big lie, it broke my Gramma's heart too. I could go on and on. If you know somebody like this steer clear of them, they are nothing but trouble. If you are forced to be in their company, don't let them lie and get away with it. Good Luck!

KimF

08-08-2008, 02:01 PM

Oh okay, I am getting a little concerned with my son. I know this is off subject but he is in Kindergarten and is constantly in trouble. No matter how much I drill it into his head he just doesn't listen to his teacher. Sometimes at night when we are sitting around talking, he starts telling me how such and such punched him in the face at school. When I start to question him about it, he goes along with it. Finally I have to tell him that he better be telling me the truth or I will question his teacher. Then he says, "I'm just kidding MOM!" Is this normal for a 5 year old? I am really concerned. I don't know what to do anymore.

tiredblondy

08-08-2008, 02:03 PM

Often abandonment issues are at the root. It's called attachment disorder. That's what they thought contributed to my daughter. Pathologically lying.stealing, etc. Anything to get attention even if it's negative. Her father abandonded us and her and she worshiped him. When she was in primary school she was obstinate and oppositional. She never cried. She never dreamed. She's in her 20's and still says she doesn't dream. I'll continue in the next box.

miimaa

08-08-2008, 02:08 PM

Started when my son got a drivers license. He and his friends wanted to run free and party. They started smoking dope at 15 and using meth when they were about 18-20. He lied so he could be out doing whatever he wanted. I used to give him gas money to go to work and found out later he wasn't going to work. He was dumping work to haul around his friends. He was always broke... said he put all his money in the gas tank. Took lawnmower gas from my garage, sold some overhead lights I had in the garage, took beer from my fridge. I stopped giving him money and drove him myself.

It got worse with the meth. I did call the sheriff but they said there was nothing they could do until he got into trouble. He got a lot of tickets for speeding, no insurance (after I quit paying), driving after revocation. A few short stays in jail (underage consumption) then he was sentenced to a year in jail for breaking and entering. That was the result of joy-ride night on meth. That is when he finally cleaned up and has been out of trouble ever since.

I was a single mom (dad in another state) and worked full-time. Usually he'd be gone when I got home. He had too much time unsupervised and so did his buddies. They have all been in trouble. I wanted to help him so I bought him his first car in order for him to get a job (we live in a rural area and he wouldn't have been able to work without wheels). Took awhile to figure out he was lying and also I WANTED to believe that he had love and respect for me and appreciative of all that I did for him.

Garnan

08-08-2008, 02:08 PM

My mother loved the drama and turmoil that she'd create. My sis and I have talked about this case and how much Casey reminds us of "your mother" as we refer to her.

I'd say it's at least possible that Caylee was left with somebody and she has created this situation just for the attention. I know it isn't likely, but it's possible. You can bet that Casey will never fess up and tell the truth.

Oh, and she's loving every minute of this.

softsoul

08-08-2008, 02:09 PM

I have a 23 year-old sister that reminds a lot of Casey. She been arrested twice in the past year for DUI and has serious drinking issues. Her social life and her friends are the only things she cares about and she lies and makes up stories constantly to keep us off her case about it.

Everytime she leaves the house, she has a different story for where she is going and then usually comes home really drunk. She lies about everything and will say anything to get to her friends and boyfriends.

The thing that I learned about patholgical liars is that they will follow through with a lie until you have 100% proven them wrong and then they will come up with another lie as soon as you confront them. It's an endless cycle and IMO, it is exactly what Casey is doing.

For example, when Casey was caught in her lie about Zenaida, her reaction was that she was lying to protect her child's life. My sister does the same thing. It is beyond frustrating.
In your sister's case the cause of her lying could be alcoholism as lying is very much a symptom of addiction. If she has an underlying mental illness (could be "self-medicating' with alcohol) it cannot be properly diagnosed until she is in recovery from her addiction.

tiredblondy

08-08-2008, 02:10 PM

She first began to steal in early teens. Eventually I've been told she got very good about it. We live in a rural area and she was always so street wise. By high school she almost burned the house down sneaking upstairs smoking. The curtains and carpet caught fire but she got it put out before it escalated. (Thank the Lord) She told me she just wanted to smoke to see what it was like with the cigarettes she'd stolen. I've often wondered if she tried to burn the house down then panicked. I don't want to believe that at all. She is larger than me, the older she got the more she acted like she hated me and her brother.Beligerant and mean yet sometimes she would cry and say she did not know why she acted the way she didl (the counselor said that was probably true) She told everyone lies and more lies. Her father also lies so I suspect that behavior was formed when she was young because she spent so much time with him.

Garnan

08-08-2008, 02:11 PM

My mother never drank or did drugs. She didn't lie because there was a "reward" so to speak. She lied for no reason other than to cause problems.

Very similar to Casey.

dacqueri

08-08-2008, 02:12 PM

Oh my word! I am dealing with this issue now with my 21 year old daughter!
She lies about everything!!! I'm not sure what kind of disorder this is but I made an appt. yesterday with a doctor.
My daughter has several issues tho... this is only one of them.
I worry about her so much that sometimes I can barely function.
OK ENOUGH! lol

Ditto, gimmeaclue...also have a 21 yr old daughter who lies about everything, and I mean everything! Doesn't matter if it is whether or not she got a parking ticket, or whether or not she went into my room without permission. I truly believe that she believes her own lies. She also has a gazillion issues, but her lying started as early as 3 yrs. old, which has troubled me for 18 years. We did the therapy thing, and this past month she finally asked to see a psychiatrist because she thinks she is bipolar! I don't think that is the issue, I think there is more to it than that. But it is still good enough for her to see a doctor to be checked, because i truly do believe that she has issues that cannot be controlled in her brain. Something is not connecting up there, and she NOW wants to know! (After many years of me trying to get her to have a brain scan! So i guess that is a step in the right direction!)

I just get so tired of it. Thankfully, my husband is the one who will look for evidence to tell whether it is a lie or not, then he informs me, and i get to be the bad guy. She usually gets caught in her lie, so you would think that she would just do the right thing and tell the truth. It is so frustrating at times!

tiredblondy

08-08-2008, 02:20 PM

We went to counseling. She refused to take any medicine and emphatically stated that there was nothing wrong with her. The counselor said if by the end of her 30's she realized she needed help and wanted to change there was hope. She had multiple run ins with the law. She moved away and now is an alcoholic, in jail for many DUI's (thank goodness she hasn't killed anyone)and still so far away from reality it is scary. Oh one more thing...nothing is ever her fault. I still see the sweet young innocent child and wonder why? The counselor seemed to think some people have a predisposition for this...something just is different in their social perception. Another thing...she was often socially inappropriate..said things that she thought was funny and everyone would roll their eyes. It's like her social perceptions of others reactions were faulty. She had to be in charge. As I think of more I'll let you guys know. I love her, always will. It's just so sad.

Parker

08-08-2008, 02:23 PM

I just had this discussion with my husband last night. My birth-mother is just like Casey (but now she's in her 50's so ya think she would straighten herself out!)...she played with my emotions so much until I was four. Then I was adopted by other family members and she disappeared, only to reappear when I was 18 and start messing with my head all over again.

I can tell you from experience that I wanted to believe her - I wanted to have some sort of relationship with her - but every freaking time I would put my neck out for her and defend her, someone else in the family would provide me with evidence that she was lying AGAIN.

You never want to believe that someone you hope would respect and love you enough NOT to lie to you IS in fact lying to your face. My fav was when she would tell me "Look me in the eyes..I am not lying to you!!" only to find out that she was lying.

Garnan

08-08-2008, 02:23 PM

We went to counseling. She refused to take any medicine and emphatically stated that there was nothing wrong with her. The counselor said if by the end of her 30's she realized she needed help and wanted to change there was hope. She had multiple run ins with the law. She moved away and now is an alcoholic, in jail for many DUI's (thank goodness she hasn't killed anyone)and still so far away from reality it is scary. Oh one more thing...nothing is ever her fault. I still see the sweet young innocent child and wonder why? The counselor seemed to think some people have a predisposition for this...something just is different in their social perception. Another thing...she was often socially inappropriate..said things that she thought was funny and everyone would roll their eyes. It's like her social perceptions of others reactions were faulty. She had to be in charge. As I think of more I'll let you guys know. I love her, always will. It's just so sad.

Same with dear old mom, nothing was ever her fault, she never took any responsibility for anything, and she never apologizes. I'm 44 years old and I have never, ever heard the words "I am sorry" come out of her mouth to anybody, ever.

softsoul

08-08-2008, 02:26 PM

I would suggest that those of you dealing with adults read up on the following diagnosis in which deceit is a prominent feature
Bipolar Disorder- these folks can be almost unbearable when they are in a manic phase. They love to get under others' skin and become very good at it. Medication can be very helpful in controlling symptoms.
Borderline Personality Disorder- say this to any mental health professional and they will likely cringe. I know after spending time with Borderlines I often walk out of the room believing I'm the one who needs professional help. Very attention-seeking and will say or do about anything to get this attention. Usually have a very difficult time coping with being alone, but not necessarily.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder- name is pretty self-explanatory. Very self-centered and NEVER wrong.
Antisocial Personality Disorder- most prominent feature is a lack of empathy or ability to feel guilt. Extremely self-serving, values others only to the extent in which they are "useful".

If any of these seem to fit there are books out that will help you understand how to cope/live with these folks. Of course there are other diagnosis as well that may fit but this a place to start.

ETA: In regard to the use of alcohol or drugs we all know anyone can lie. My point in my earlier post was to say the cause of the pathological lying will be muddled if there is drug/alcohol use as it will mask the mental illness (if one is present). You certainly don't have to use drugs or alcohol in order to have a mental illness or in order to be deceitful.

asher1979

08-08-2008, 02:31 PM

My grandmother (dad's mother) is a pathological liar. And no this isn't dementia; she's been this way her entire life. My great aunt (her sister) says it started as a small child. She has no alcohol or drug addiction. She just wants to make herself appear better to everyone and she enjoys stirring up trouble. She also enjoys drama surrounding her. Her lies are innocent except that they always make someone else appear bad. She lies about things like:
~ She claims that my mom is a golddigger and stole her hard working son from her (reality: my dad was kicked out at 16 and he and my mom both worked hard their whole lives; they only had money after 20 years of marriage)
~ She claims that she and my grandpa sheltered us when my parents lost everything in a fire because my mom's parents wouldn't give us a dime (reality: my mom's parents gave us everything; we stayed with crazy grandma for a week after the fire)
~ She claims that my mom's family is trash and derelict (reality: of her children only my dad has done well and stayed out of jail; of the grandchildren only my sister and I have stayed out of jail)
~ She claims that she had a hysterectomy several years ago; one great aunt was told that she had a hysterectomy in 1959, another was told that she had a hysterectomy in 1980 (reality: how many times can you have a hysterectomy?)
~ She claims she takes a dozen pills a day (reality: my dad took her pill bottles to her doctor and asked him to explain what she was taking, doctor told my dad they were almost all placebos)

In my grandmother's case it is all about drama, attention and looking good. She had a pathetic life and the majority of her children and grandchildren turned out to be losers so she has to lie, lie, lie. The sad thing is that people don't know the truth. It is only once you go deeper that you discover she's such a liar.

It is interesting to me that my uncle has inherited this trait. He's a 52 year old waste of space who lies about everything. Is it inherited or did he learn it by watching her? Who knows.

amandab

08-08-2008, 02:34 PM

I would suggest that those of you dealing with adults read up on the following diagnosis in which deceit is a prominent feature
Bipolar Disorder- these folks can be almost unbearable when they are in a manic phase. They love to get under others' skin and become very good at it. Medication can be very helpful in controlling symptoms.
Borderline Personality Disorder- say this to any mental health professional and they will likely cringe. I know after spending time with Borderlines I often walk out of the room believing I'm the one who needs professional help. Very attention-seeking and will say or do about anything to get this attention. Usually have a very difficult time coping with being alone, but not necessarily.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder- name is pretty self-explanatory. Very self-centered and NEVER wrong.
Antisocial Personality Disorder- most prominent feature is a lack of empathy or ability to feel guilt. Extremely self-serving, values others only to the extent in which they are "useful".

If any of these seem to fit there are books out that will help you understand how to cope/live with these folks. Of course there are other diagnosis as well that may fit but this a place to start.

My ex sister-in-law was/is Borderline. OMG the headaches and nightmares she caused. I truly believe she was a contributing factor to the breakdown of my marriage. Not all of it, by any means, but part of it.

OneLostGrl

08-08-2008, 02:34 PM

I wish all the other "mental illness" posts from the general discussion thread were posted in the mental illness thread. I would have liked to have been able to follow along as to what kinds of issues in regard to Casey that people were discussing because as I have pointed out in the past I do see some "behaviors" of Casey's that remind me of myself prior to treatment.

This is not meant to imply that I think she has Bipolar, just some behaviors that can and do go hand in hand with it but the behaviors also go hand in hand with a host of other illnesses as well, such as Anti-social personality disorder (what used to be termed Sociopath/Psychopath).

I don't understand why it took so long for her to come into contact with LE. If this girl has a personality disorder there has got to be a history of trouble with authority (other than he parents)...

I'm just sayin'

asher1979

08-08-2008, 02:37 PM

Oh my gosh, some of the things you say are so spot on. The socially inappropriate thing is exactly like my grandmother. She has no filter between her brain and her mouth and just says whatever she thinks. At a family get together with a dozen people around she asked my mother if she had ever considered a breast reduction. At another family get together she asked my aunts if they thought my mother's weight was healthy. We were at a family funeral and I was 8 months pregnant. (I'm only 5'3 and I only gained 20 pounds while pregnant but on my frame it looked huge). In front of family she says to me "Are you sure there is only one baby in there and not two or three? You're huge." One of my cousins chuckled so my grandmother proceeded to repeat her question 3 more times. Every time someone new would walk over she would repeat it. If looks could kill my eyes would have delivered her death blow.

tiredblondy

08-08-2008, 02:41 PM

I would suggest that those of you dealing with adults read up on the following diagnosis in which deceit is a prominent feature
Bipolar Disorder- these folks can be almost unbearable when they are in a manic phase. They love to get under others' skin and become very good at it. Medication can be very helpful in controlling symptoms.
Borderline Personality Disorder- say this to any mental health professional and they will likely cringe. I know after spending time with Borderlines I often walk out of the room believing I'm the one who needs professional help. Very attention-seeking and will say or do about anything to get this attention. Usually have a very difficult time coping with being alone, but not necessarily.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder- name is pretty self-explanatory. Very self-centered and NEVER wrong.
Antisocial Personality Disorder- most prominent feature is a lack of empathy or ability to feel guilt. Extremely self-serving, values others only to the extent in which they are "useful".
If any of these seem to fit there are books out that will help you understand how to cope/live with these folks. Of course there are other diagnosis as well that may fit but this a place to start.

My daughter's diagnosis was Borderline, Narcissistic,Antisocial personality disorder with attachment disorder. I've read everything and counseling has helped my guilt and my reactions to her but if you've never lived with these people you cannot imagine what it's like. These are the kids who tell their peers parents you beat them,you kicked them out of the house, called social services and complained they were abused...you name it. I've been there. There was one house she ran away too where the mom allowed her to stay but called me to let me know she was safe. The arrangement worked well. My daughter never knew. I think she ran away 3 or 4 times during high school. Just didn't come home, call etc. I was scared to death the first time looked everywhere cried etc. After the second time it was old hat. You can just take so much.

tiredblondy

08-08-2008, 02:45 PM

Remember the counselor seemed to think it significant with my daughter that she never cried and didn't dream.

CASuzk

08-08-2008, 02:45 PM

Yeah, my cousin. There is some history that may explain it:The true part- adopted in 1963, birth mother was a young professional in Washington D.C. who had an affair with an older married politician. (don't think it could be a Kennedy, cousin is tall and very blond)
Aunt had two children and did not want another but she'd married a man who wanted a child.
Aunt was the troubled child in her own family, was verbally abusive to the baby to the point that screaming "Shut up" at the crying baby would cause her to stop at once.

Cousin grew into a charming but pathological thieving liar.
She didn't graduate from high school but somehow, magically, she has been approached to be a model or movie star and she became an accountant for a firm in Hollywood where she regularly handles the funds of several major movie stars. I really don't know what she does for a living, I'm 100% sure that she isn't doing what she says she does but the other possiblites are too disturbing to think about and what good would it do to call her a liar?
However, she had a child who is now 24, and bless her heart, cousin did raise this child and has taken pretty good care of her.

softsoul

08-08-2008, 02:46 PM

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My daughter's diagnosis was Borderline, Narcissistic,Antisocial personality disorder with attachment disorder. I've read everything and counseling has helped my guilt and my reactions to her but if you've never lived with these people you cannot imagine what it's like. These are the kids who tell their peers parents you beat them,you kicked them out of the house, called social services and complained they were abused...you name it. I've been there. There was one house she ran away too where the mom allowed her to stay but called me to let me know she was safe. The arrangement worked well. My daughter never knew. I think she ran away 3 or 4 times during high school. Just didn't come home, call etc. I was scared to death the first time looked everywhere cried etc. After the second time it was old hat. You can just take so much.

Wow, what a nightmare of a diagnosis!!:shocked2:

tiredblondy

08-08-2008, 03:02 PM

Wow, what a nightmare of a diagnosis!!:shocked2:

Thanks...that's what I thought too. I don't know if all those were necessary or just to cover everything for insurance purposes. The attachment disorder was bad enough. I really feel the borderline and antisocial personality disorders were appropriate. I always thought of the attachment disorder as "reactive attachment disorder". The counselor said no it was attachment disorder. Those books, articles and videos helped me more than any others.

txsvicki

08-08-2008, 05:20 PM

I've had to deal with a boy from age 5 to now age 12. He's stolen jewelry from all the female relatives, stolen money that we've had hidden away, and has told some wild delusional type tales several times in his life. When anyone is questioning him he tells what they want to hear. He will admit to some of his misdeeds if totally cornered and there's no one else to blame. He had also tried to recruit smaller children to steal money for him while he was the lookout and the other kids told that he concocted a "plan" to totally disrupt my home and hid fruit behind things knowing that I'm very allergic to mold. This was all because he didn't get his way and got grounded for one day due to sneaking fireworks in the home and leaving them where a smaller child could get them. Then he lied about where he got them, and tried to blame his older brother who was not even around. He now lives with a relative who has no small children and is still at it when he takes a notion. His lies are about what a child would lie about, such as homework, wanting to get out of cleaning, etc. The psychologist diagnosed him with ADD and OCD. Says it's a compulsion, but is considering that he may be a psychopath, and used the word psychopath. He had previously stopped treating him because he's so polite, pleasant, and good natured with no complaints. I've seen psychiatrists and tried to tell doctors of my fears that something is bad wrong, but can't seem to get very much help. No one wants to diagnose a child. He takes ADD medication and an antipsychotic, but still seems to have at least one big episode a year of some big questionable tale and stealing. I don't know how to deal with liars because I've told very few in my whole life, but I'm convinced there's some mental illness involved along with some personality disorder in the more cunning habitual liars.

gimmeaclue

08-08-2008, 05:59 PM

I don't hold out much hope with her seeing a doctor and it helping. We have seen so many over the years for one thing or another. I believe a lot of her problem is that she is just spoiled and self centered. She means to have her way no matter what.
She's an only child and I think her dad and I have never made her suffer any consequences (sp). The thing is she can make her dad believe anything she says. But I'm on to her!
It is just unbelievable some of the tales she has.
You know I had considered talking about this in the jury room but I just couldn't get up my nerve.
It feels so good to get this off my chest! I could go on for hours! lol

OneLostGrl

08-08-2008, 06:24 PM

I've had to deal with a boy from age 5 to now age 12. He's stolen jewelry from all the female relatives, stolen money that we've had hidden away, and has told some wild delusional type tales several times in his life. When anyone is questioning him he tells what they want to hear. He will admit to some of his misdeeds if totally cornered and there's no one else to blame. He had also tried to recruit smaller children to steal money for him while he was the lookout and the other kids told that he concocted a "plan" to totally disrupt my home and hid fruit behind things knowing that I'm very allergic to mold. This was all because he didn't get his way and got grounded for one day due to sneaking fireworks in the home and leaving them where a smaller child could get them. Then he lied about where he got them, and tried to blame his older brother who was not even around. He now lives with a relative who has no small children and is still at it when he takes a notion. His lies are about what a child would lie about, such as homework, wanting to get out of cleaning, etc. The psychologist diagnosed him with ADD and OCD. Says it's a compulsion, but is considering that he may be a psychopath, and used the word psychopath. He had previously stopped treating him because he's so polite, pleasant, and good natured with no complaints. I've seen psychiatrists and tried to tell doctors of my fears that something is bad wrong, but can't seem to get very much help. No one wants to diagnose a child. He takes ADD medication and an antipsychotic, but still seems to have at least one big episode a year of some big questionable tale and stealing. I don't know how to deal with liars because I've told very few in my whole life, but I'm convinced there's some mental illness involved along with some personality disorder in the more cunning habitual liars.

wow! How'd you do it for so long? it sounds more like ODD, not OCD to me!

fixingtoburst

08-08-2008, 06:27 PM

My mother is, and always has been a pathological liar. She would tell the most ridiculous stories that would make her look good, or she thought would be received as humorous. Example:

"I went to the Post Office today and saw Shirley there. I told her that if she didn't stop spanking her 3 year old son with his pants pulled down in the front yard I was going to call the police and have her arrested for child abuse."

She would think that this makes her look good. If I happened to be with her, and she told an outlandish story, I would quickly add that the whole thing was untrue and that it never happened. Needless to say, she hated me. I haven't seen or spoken to her in over 10 years, but I don't doubt that she's still at it.

Her favorite thing was to tell stories about us kids and other kin. She's say "your sister said that you were driving drunk yesterday." I'd say, that's not true, I didn't even see my sister yesterday." "Well, she saw you, she told me so." So I call my sister, big fight, huge blow-up until we figure out that dear old Mom is the culprit not either one of us.

It took us girls well into our 30's to finally write her out of our lives completely. The final straw for me was when she started her tricks on my 5 year old son. I cut her out of my life completely.

It's not something that I will ever tolerate again, from anybody. My advice is to call them out when you catch them in a lie. Eventually, she tried very hard not to lie when I was present because she knew she couldn't get away with it. It was almost impossible for her to do though. She'd sooner lie than tell the truth about almost anything.

She told everybody that my elderly grandmother (Daddy's mom) was a lesbian. She knew this because she saw them necking on Gramma's couch one time. Big lie, it broke my Gramma's heart too. I could go on and on. If you know somebody like this steer clear of them, they are nothing but trouble. If you are forced to be in their company, don't let them lie and get away with it. Good Luck!

We must have the same mother. That's really scary.

OneLostGrl

08-08-2008, 06:28 PM

I don't hold out much hope with her seeing a doctor and it helping. We have seen so many over the years for one thing or another. I believe a lot of her problem is that she is just spoiled and self centered. She means to have her way no matter what.
She's an only child and I think her dad and I have never made her suffer any consequences (sp). The thing is she can make her dad believe anything she says. But I'm on to her!
It is just unbelievable some of the tales she has.
You know I had considered talking about this in the jury room but I just couldn't get up my nerve.
It feels so good to get this off my chest! I could go on for hours! lol

Don't stop now, girl! We have threads about mental illness about borderline personality etc in the jury room. Come check us out sometime!

here's one about Borderline http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67257 (it may just lead you to getting answers on how to help your daughter, who know?! It can't hurt!)

Salem

08-08-2008, 08:55 PM

I am really enjoying this thread. It gives me so much in-sight into what Casey might be doing (I can't say thinking or feeling) and how her family might have responded over the years.

I also want to say I am sorry for everyone's pain and trials, but it does sound as if you have all found or are working on finding a way to deal with your particular circumstances.

Prayers to all of you and thank you all so much for sharing!

Salem

ShouldBWorking

08-08-2008, 08:57 PM

We must have the same mother. That's really scary.

we might be triplets:D

Amity

08-08-2008, 10:19 PM

I just have to say this........

I have tears on my cheeks and my nose is running. Reading all these responses....my heart goes out to each of you and your families.

Way back, can't even remember which # Caylee General Discussion it was, I posted a little bit about my daughter.
With one exception in a Private Message (which I will always cherish) my post wasn't responded to.
That's OK. The forums for Caylee move so fast it was understandable but I also felt that maybe I was the only parent/Mom on the Caylee forum that could see similarities with Casey and my own adult child.
That other Moms on this forum didn't have the unfortunate experience of having a Drama Daughter was OK by me.
I was glad of that as I wouldn't wish my life with my Drama Daughter on my worst enemy.

Then I see this topic, start reading and omg, my heart aches for each of you having to deal with these broken loved ones.

((((( To all of you who have shared your story, your heartache)))))

Love_Mama

08-08-2008, 10:38 PM

I wish all the other "mental illness" posts from the general discussion thread were posted in the mental illness thread. I would have liked to have been able to follow along as to what kinds of issues in regard to Casey that people were discussing because as I have pointed out in the past I do see some "behaviors" of Casey's that remind me of myself prior to treatment.

This is not meant to imply that I think she has Bipolar, just some behaviors that can and do go hand in hand with it but the behaviors also go hand in hand with a host of other illnesses as well, such as Anti-social personality disorder (what used to be termed Sociopath/Psychopath).

I don't understand why it took so long for her to come into contact with LE. If this girl has a personality disorder there has got to be a history of trouble with authority (other than he parents)...

I'm just sayin'

Posters here. OneLostGrl is a well loved long time highly respected poster here at WS.
Look at her post number.

If you see a post by her, read it. She know's more about problems with children lying than most of us would ever know. She's the best and she's been through a lot, believe me.

xxxxxxxxoooooo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

lisalei321

08-08-2008, 11:15 PM

Oh okay, I am getting a little concerned with my son. I know this is off subject but he is in Kindergarten and is constantly in trouble. No matter how much I drill it into his head he just doesn't listen to his teacher. Sometimes at night when we are sitting around talking, he starts telling me how such and such punched him in the face at school. When I start to question him about it, he goes along with it. Finally I have to tell him that he better be telling me the truth or I will question his teacher. Then he says, "I'm just kidding MOM!" Is this normal for a 5 year old? I am really concerned. I don't know what to do anymore.

I have an 8 year old that had the same problem in school, luckily for us we had an EXTREMELY awesome teacher, she called it "what I wanted to have happened syndrome", so now when she starts telling us something that sounds like a fantasy we ask her if it's a story or is it true? We bought her some journals and we have her write down the story (to share at dinner) and she pretty much always speak what actually happened (this started when she was 6 btw). She has gotten really good at telling us "this is what happened" and "this is what I wrote down", the funny part? Her stories are pretty dang good!

Salem

08-08-2008, 11:18 PM

(((((Amity))))) -Amity hugs to you also! I have only spot read the 60+ threads in the general discussion. With 200 posters at a time I have not had time to read every post. I am so sorry I missed yours and I am glad you found this thread!

I think having this thread can be very instrumental in helping to find Caylee because it gives us a "real" look into Casey's head and provides some understanding of the family's behavior.

If our threads could lose a little frustration and start really looking at how the family dynamics are set up and Casey's possible response to those dynamics, we might get somewhere...

Prayers to all,

Salem

Salem

08-08-2008, 11:20 PM

I have an 8 year old that had the same problem in school, luckily for us we had an EXTREMELY awesome teacher, she called it "what I wanted to have happened syndrome", so now when she starts telling us something that sounds like a fantasy we ask her if it's a story or is it true? We bought her some journals and we have her write down the story (to share at dinner) and she pretty much always speak what actually happened (this started when she was 6 btw). She has gotten really good at telling us "this is what happened" and "this is what I wrote down", the funny part? Her stories are pretty dang good!

How creative! What a wonderful idea! And what a nice way to teach your daughter the difference between the "fantasy" and the reality.

Salem

lisalei321

08-08-2008, 11:26 PM

How creative! What a wonderful idea! And what a nice way to teach your daughter the difference between the "fantasy" and the reality.

Salem

I firmly believe it has saved me alot in future "therapy" billings (whether they be mine or hers I'm not sure):woohoo:

softsoul

08-08-2008, 11:41 PM

I've had to deal with a boy from age 5 to now age 12. He's stolen jewelry from all the female relatives, stolen money that we've had hidden away, and has told some wild delusional type tales several times in his life. When anyone is questioning him he tells what they want to hear. He will admit to some of his misdeeds if totally cornered and there's no one else to blame. He had also tried to recruit smaller children to steal money for him while he was the lookout and the other kids told that he concocted a "plan" to totally disrupt my home and hid fruit behind things knowing that I'm very allergic to mold. This was all because he didn't get his way and got grounded for one day due to sneaking fireworks in the home and leaving them where a smaller child could get them. Then he lied about where he got them, and tried to blame his older brother who was not even around. He now lives with a relative who has no small children and is still at it when he takes a notion. His lies are about what a child would lie about, such as homework, wanting to get out of cleaning, etc. The psychologist diagnosed him with ADD and OCD. Says it's a compulsion, but is considering that he may be a psychopath, and used the word psychopath. He had previously stopped treating him because he's so polite, pleasant, and good natured with no complaints. I've seen psychiatrists and tried to tell doctors of my fears that something is bad wrong, but can't seem to get very much help. No one wants to diagnose a child. He takes ADD medication and an antipsychotic, but still seems to have at least one big episode a year of some big questionable tale and stealing. I don't know how to deal with liars because I've told very few in my whole life, but I'm convinced there's some mental illness involved along with some personality disorder in the more cunning habitual liars.
Can I ask what antipsychotic drug he is taking? I agree with OneLost about it sounding more like ODD than OCD...I've never heard of a OCD diagnosis for lying but who knows. However, I have some concerns about a psychiatrist referring to a child as a psychopath. You really cannot diagnosis a child or adolescent with a personality disorder, although it is entirely possible for a child to experience psychosis...although extremely rare...most psychotic symptoms begin to appear in the early twenties, sometimes in the late teens.

I hope all of you and your loved ones get whatever help you need. It is hard enough being a parent but to have your child have such problems must be so challenging and heartbreaking.

anneinchicago

08-08-2008, 11:49 PM

I firmly believe the problem is hereditary and therefore a true mental illness.

My mother (who had other mental health issues) was a pathological liar. After she died, I learned that not only was her age wrong, but her name was made up, her family history, everything. Not a word she had said was true. To this day, I still have no real idea of what her name really is, whether she (and I) still have family somewhere, where she was born, etc.

My daughter (and I think the first rush of teen-aged hormones is a contributing factor) began when she hit puberty. I have cut off all contact with her. She lies to everyone, steals, manipulates, wouldn't know the truth of something if it whacked her on the head. My daugter would call, hysteical, in the middle of the night, convince me she needed me to drop everything and come to wherever she was (the last time was at 1:00 AM), her husband was going to kill her, etc. etc. I would get there and she would act as if nothing was wrong and would I like to go with her to a flea market tomorrow.
I was invited to her wedding, have never met her husband (Lord only knows what she has said about me) or knows where she lives. She tells people I beat er. Or locked her up at home. Or... Or... Or... She sees no reason to be medicated.

Both my mother and daughter seem (ed) to firmly believe whatever they say. Confront them and it can escalate into violence or, at the very least, a screaming fit.

kpass

08-08-2008, 11:58 PM

I have a son who is bi-polar (diagnosed at age 16)...the lying started at a very early age. He's 30 now & STILL lies! Refuses to take his meds because he thinks everyone else has the problem...He's right & the world is all wrong! Needless to say, his father was the same way, I divorced him many, many years ago when my son was 2 years. Usually, I believe it's hereditary.

Fandy

08-09-2008, 12:07 PM

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My daughter's diagnosis was Borderline, Narcissistic,Antisocial personality disorder with attachment disorder. I've read everything and counseling has helped my guilt and my reactions to her but if you've never lived with these people you cannot imagine what it's like. These are the kids who tell their peers parents you beat them,you kicked them out of the house, called social services and complained they were abused...you name it. I've been there. There was one house she ran away too where the mom allowed her to stay but called me to let me know she was safe. The arrangement worked well. My daughter never knew. I think she ran away 3 or 4 times during high school. Just didn't come home, call etc. I was scared to death the first time looked everywhere cried etc. After the second time it was old hat. You can just take so much.

I have had very much the same experiences with my daughter...it began freshman year in high school...she went from being and Honors student to almost failing the year....and although we did everything we could to get her professional help, she would lie to the psych, social workers andtry to con them. She is a master of manipulation and a real drama queen.

I'm sorry to say that 12 years later she hasn't changed, she's now an adult and refuses to get help and recognise her problem...but my attitude has changed to save my sanity. i told her she was "off my payroll" and if she didn't show respect and civility she was not welcome in my home. Her father (myX) has done the same.

I saw the first phone call released from casey's records (the one where she talks to her mother asking for the phone number--huge waste statement, constant use of the f word)....it could have been my daughter speaking...i was away on vacation at the time and it just jolted me back.

I forget who said it, but you come away from a conversation with this type of person thinking you are the one that is wrong or *insane*...They are master manipulators. I can identify with Cindy to a point.

sorry i'm long-winded and this is probably one of the reasons i follow this case.:bang:

tiredblondy

08-10-2008, 02:27 AM

Thanks to the kind responses and understanding. I really appreciate your support and wonderful comments. It really helps to know there are others who understand and have been there. Thank you so much. Is my daughter the only one who has had trouble with not crying or not dreaming?

Vegas Bride

08-10-2008, 02:48 AM

The problem I have with replying to this thread is, I don't know which one of the many compulsive liars I've known should I talk about? Casey imo is certainly not alone in the compulsive liar cattegory!
Tonight I will talk about 1 of my sisters, she reminds me so much of Casey, partly because she had a baby at a young age, even younger than Casey. She manipulated and used everyone around her as much as she could. After she had the baby she was very good at using the baby as a tool to get things and threaten to take the baby away if she didn't get what she wanted, many time's she would tell us we'd never see her daughter again! I was younger and still a child myself and can look back at it all now and I just shake my head. I'm sure I don't know everything she pulled, but I was aware of enough to get a pretty good feel for her.
With my sister, she was attractive and had an outgoing personality (when she wanted to), she had a much higher oppinion about her looks than what reality was. Yes she was pretty but, there are plenty out there who were prettier. In her mind, if she had not gotten pregnent and gotten married, she would have become Miss America, she really believed this! It did not matter that she had never been in 1 single beauty pagent, much less won one and for the life of me I can't think of what her talent could have been, she was not a singer or dancer or did anything with music other than some ear hurting violin lesson for a little while. I can remember her standing in front of a mirror telling herself how beautiful she was. Through the years the 1 thing she has always done has been to take care of her appearance, she has never been overweight and has always been well groomed and well dressed, I think it's because she understand she's able to get away with things more because of how she looks. I think Casey may also. My mother in many ways fed into this, she enjoyed listening to my sister spin her tales and the drama she brought into the home. I remember how 1 day when she put it into her head to get her in-laws to buy her baby clothes, she purposely tore up an outfit so she could dress her daughter in rags so she could take her to them and they would see how she was dressed. This is how she used people, I also remember her taking some of her baby's Christmas gifts and exchanging them for something for herself, and nothing that was really needed! She was always wanting something from someone, always had a gimmic. For people who saw her true colors, well they were just jealous because she was so beautiful and when they die they will burn in hell for the way they treated her! The women at work were jealous of her because she dressed so much better than them, etc. I have a very limited relationship with her now, I am close to her daughter and have tried through the years to offer her some stability.
I could go on about this so much more but I better quit.
imo my sister and Casey both figured out at a very young age that if you look pretty, you can get away with stuff!

VB

monkey

08-10-2008, 03:15 AM

Ok I am sleepy tonight but I really want help with what has happened in my life with a Liar! Well, a couple of them but one that lives in my house ! I will have to come back to this thread! loll! ( Just found it ) !

txsvicki

08-10-2008, 03:56 AM

Can I ask what antipsychotic drug he is taking? I agree with OneLost about it sounding more like ODD than OCD...I've never heard of a OCD diagnosis for lying but who knows. However, I have some concerns about a psychiatrist referring to a child as a psychopath. You really cannot diagnosis a child or adolescent with a personality disorder, although it is entirely possible for a child to experience psychosis...although extremely rare...most psychotic symptoms begin to appear in the early twenties, sometimes in the late teens.

I hope all of you and your loved ones get whatever help you need. It is hard enough being a parent but to have your child have such problems must be so challenging and heartbreaking.

Sorry I've taken awhile to get back to this thread. He's taking Abilify. I think the Psychologist was mainly talking to me about concerns for future possibilities because I said (in a private talk) that I was afraid he'd grow up and be a psychopath. He did say that it's really a concern because medication and treatment has not resulted in enough improvement. I've been told as well that Abilify should control bipolar mania even though doctors seem very hesitant to even diagnose that.

softsoul

08-10-2008, 07:44 AM

Sorry I've taken awhile to get back to this thread. He's taking Abilify. I think the Psychologist was mainly talking to me about concerns for future possibilities because I said (in a private talk) that I was afraid he'd grow up and be a psychopath. He did say that it's really a concern because medication and treatment has not resulted in enough improvement. I've been told as well that Abilify should control bipolar mania even though doctors seem very hesitant to even diagnose that.

That makes more sense, thanks for sharing. I once knew an eight year old boy who had started burglarizing houses. He was violent with his mother and anyone who "got in his way". Nothing the family tried seemed to help. I had similar thoughts about him at that time and often wonder what became of him. He would be in his early 20's now.

On the brighter side I've seen many kids with severe behavioral problems, including compulsive lying, turn around and become healthy, happy adults. The older they get the more unlikely it becomes but it certainly can and does happen.

OneLostGrl

08-10-2008, 10:01 PM

I have a son who is bi-polar (diagnosed at age 16)...the lying started at a very early age. He's 30 now & STILL lies! Refuses to take his meds because he thinks everyone else has the problem...He's right & the world is all wrong! Needless to say, his father was the same way, I divorced him many, many years ago when my son was 2 years. Usually, I believe it's hereditary.

I'm sorry your son has not gotten help and I understand the pain that must cause you and the rest of your family, including your son! My heart goes out to you- I wish I could wrap my arms around you through our computer screens! :blowkiss:

I have Bipolar disorder as well and was misdiagnosed and over or under medicated at any given time throughout my entire life. I have caused my loved ones a lot of pain.. left a path of destruction in my wake until about 6 years ago. Something just clicked and I finally decided to get help no matter what.

I am medicated and I thank G0d for it but IMO more important, I have made amazing lifestyle changes. I stopped self-medicating (I am a prescription drug addict), I have learned to love myself which in turn has taught me how to love others. I keep my impulsivity in check, refuse myself a debit or credit card and keep my life drama free.

I have not been arrested in 6 years.. in the last 2 years I finished up the last of my punishments. I am off of probation for the first time ever in my adult life and I earned back my drivers license (had been suspended for 5 years!), I have not gotten a speeding ticket (your son has Bipolar, you understand about speeding tickets, I'm sure, no?!).

I screwed up a lot of things, I lied, I stole, I cheated, I worked as a "call girl", I broke laws, I am a convicted felon, a drug addict, I was a piece of s#it. But I'm not anymore.

This was 6 years ago... when I was 30.

Don't give up on your son...
:blowkiss:

kpass

08-10-2008, 11:10 PM

I'm sorry your son has not gotten help and I understand the pain that must cause you and the rest of your family, including your son! My heart goes out to you- I wish I could wrap my arms around you through our computer screens! :blowkiss:

I have Bipolar disorder as well and was misdiagnosed and over or under medicated at any given time throughout my entire life. I have caused my loved ones a lot of pain.. left a path of destruction in my wake until about 6 years ago. Something just clicked and I finally decided to get help no matter what.

I am medicated and I thank G0d for it but IMO more important, I have made amazing lifestyle changes. I stopped self-medicating (I am a prescription drug addict), I have learned to love myself which in turn has taught me how to love others. I keep my impulsivity in check, refuse myself a debit or credit card and keep my life drama free.

I have not been arrested in 6 years.. in the last 2 years I finished up the last of my punishments. I am off of probation for the first time ever in my adult life and I earned back my drivers license (had been suspended for 5 years!), I have not gotten a speeding ticket (your son has Bipolar, you understand about speeding tickets, I'm sure, no?!).

I screwed up a lot of things, I lied, I stole, I cheated, I worked as a "call girl", I broke laws, I am a convicted felon, a drug addict, I was a piece of s#it. But I'm not anymore.

This was 6 years ago... when I was 30.

Don't give up on your son...
:blowkiss:

Thank you...God bless you! I'm so happy to hear that there is "hope" out there. I hope & pray every day that he'll see the light & come around. It's been about 7 mos. since we've talked. He has a 2 year old daughter that he doesn't see. I have her over 2 - 3 days a week & she's the spitting image of him. It breaks my heart that she doesn't know her father. It's like he doesn't even care. He saw her for 5 minutes when she was a few days old, held her, she cried & he handed her back to her mother & left. He's the one missing out, not her...she has many people that love her. I worry that she'll never know him. He's not a bad person, he has a good heart deep down...but refuses to take his meds & does CRAZY things...Yes, he's had many speeding tickets AND many other "criminal offenses." Has done jail time, etc. You name it, he's done it! I have always given him the benefit of the doubt, tried tough love, etc. I'm at the end of my rope. So is everyone else. Everyone has bent over backwards trying to help him & they always end up being the "bad guy" with him.

Take care & keep it up! :clap:

OneLostGrl

08-10-2008, 11:18 PM

Posters here. OneLostGrl is a well loved long time highly respected poster here at WS.
Look at her post number.

If you see a post by her, read it. She know's more about problems with children lying than most of us would ever know. She's the best and she's been through a lot, believe me.

xxxxxxxxoooooo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

LOL- I was talking about you to my son the day that you wrote this!

It's the same day that I got in trouble here for getting mouthy with a new poster (discussing mental illness in regard to the mom in this case) and I said to my son "I know Love_mama will stick up for me- she knows about Bipolar too!!"

Thanks for sticking up for me, mama- you are the best! As always it is great to see you! :blowkiss:

OneLostGrl

08-11-2008, 01:26 AM

Thank you...God bless you! I'm so happy to hear that there is "hope" out there. I hope & pray every day that he'll see the light & come around. It's been about 7 mos. since we've talked. He has a 2 year old daughter that he doesn't see. I have her over 2 - 3 days a week & she's the spitting image of him. It breaks my heart that she doesn't know her father. It's like he doesn't even care. He saw her for 5 minutes when she was a few days old, held her, she cried & he handed her back to her mother & left. He's the one missing out, not her...she has many people that love her. I worry that she'll never know him. He's not a bad person, he has a good heart deep down...but refuses to take his meds & does CRAZY things...Yes, he's had many speeding tickets AND many other "criminal offenses." Has done jail time, etc. You name it, he's done it! I have always given him the benefit of the doubt, tried tough love, etc. I'm at the end of my rope. So is everyone else. Everyone has bent over backwards trying to help him & they always end up being the "bad guy" with him.

Take care & keep it up! :clap:

A lot of the Borderline personality behaviors that people are describing on the other thread are very similar to Bipolar behaviors I'm sure you have noticed. Also a lot of addict behaviors are much alike as well. I point this out because (IMO) as with addiction, a person with Bipolar or BPD will not get help.. will not get well until they are ready, until they have hit rock bottom.

It sounds as if your son has built a wall and none of you are allowed on his side of it anymore. We push away the people that might be of the greatest help to us, the people who have seen us well, who call us on our bull****. Once confronted we become angry.. it is then that everything becomes their fault. Your concern looks to us like interference or rejection. Your worry for us makes us feel you are overprotective or treating us like a child.

Sadly it will only worsen until he gets help. Hopefully that will be before his daughter is grown!

There are a lot of reasons people with Bipolar go off their meds. I will list a few just to give you some idea. Please don't think that I condone any of these because I don't. It took me a long time but I have learned that I will be on medication for the rest of my life or I will die from my disease.

Giving up our crazy isn't easy- it's all we have ever known. I realize that sounds crazy but good or bad, people become used to what they know and all we know is crazy. Wellness is scary because it is unknown.

Some of us begin to feel so good, so "normal" that we wonder if what we have really is Bipolar at all. We wonder if it is the therapy, the skills and lifestyle changes, not the medicine, that has made us well. We have become so strong we actually believe we can handle it without medication. We fool ourself into thinking we are like everyone else.

Besides the fact that they can take quite some time to kick in and being pretty expensive (my medications cost $1,550 a month!), many of the medications prescribed for Bipolar are mind dulling, cause weight gain, drowsiness (in many cases actual over-sedation), have the potential for abuse & require weekly or monthly blood work. Some can cause diabetes, liver disease, thyroid issues and many interfere with other, non-psych, medications (even over the counter ones).

Sometimes our medications just stop working through no fault of our own. We can feel it happening, we loose faith in our doctor, in the meds, in ourselves.. so we say screw it, if my meds aren't gonna work I might as well go off of them and at least enjoy a high before I crash.

Another reason is that we don't feel we are worthy of peace of mind, we hate ourselves and our illness has convinced us that we don't want to feel good.

If you ever need to talk or whatever PM me :blowkiss:

csds703

08-11-2008, 07:18 AM

I lived was a compulsive liar for 13 years. It was subtle at first. It would appear as being just immature or irresponsible. It showed itself more and more through the years.

As a rational sane person it is mind boggling to even consider why they lie about the things they do. Most of the lies are so outrageous but sprinkled with some truth that it is confusing. As the person living with them, you are always thinking why would they lie about that? I always felt like something wasn't quite right.

Like Casey, my liar even continued to lie when confronted by LE. His lies brought him more trouble at times than the truth would have. There was always some weird fantasy image that he was trying to uphold about himself.

As for me, I would wake up in the middle of the night with panic trying to figure out what was really going on around me.