Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.

To me Pope Benedict always appeared to be interested in the liturgy, seeing it as the apex of the Christian life; while Pope Francis really seems bored by the liturgy, and comes off as more interested in giving vague sound bites to the media that can be interpreted in any number of ways (orthodox or non-orthodox).

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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality." St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."St. Theodore Studite

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.

To me Pope Benedict always appeared to be interested in the liturgy, seeing it as the apex of the Christian life; while Pope Francis really seems bored by the liturgy, and comes off as more interested in giving vague sound bites to the media that can be interpreted in any number of ways (orthodox or non-orthodox).

Hmmm. And when our Pope comes to visit, we sing "Pi Ehmot Gar" instead of dancing around like idiots.

I think I'll stick with Orthodoxy, though I do sincerely feel bad for the many I have known who are in union with Rome who are sick of garbage such as in that video.

I don't feel too sorry for them. The road is open for them to come home which is what I did.

Viking

Certainly. I only meant that there are many serious people who are nonetheless in union with Rome who cringe at all this nonsense. Having been there myself, I know first hand how infuriating it can be.

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.

To me Pope Benedict always appeared to be interested in the liturgy, seeing it as the apex of the Christian life; while Pope Francis really seems bored by the liturgy, and comes off as more interested in giving vague sound bites to the media that can be interpreted in any number of ways (orthodox or non-orthodox).

yeah, that's a fair assessment....

I cannot help but sit back and watch how self-proclaimed traditionalists are horrified to hear almost any statement from the new Pope while the Neo-Caths are more than willing to rush to his aid and show how what he says is perfectly in line with previous Catholic teaching (which, I might add, it usually is, though he has a tendency to say things in a way that can lend itself to reinterpretation). I think the tendency to defend or detract is in part because for traditionalists see the papacy as an important part of the charism of protection the Catholic Church supposedly carries, while Neo-Caths — bolstered by bad apologetics — see the papacy as the whole of the charism. While a bad pope for traditionalists can mean a hard road ahead, for those whose entire faith hinges on the papacy, it’s the end of the world if they can’t figure out where he falls in the spectrum Catholic belief.

(This is somewhat complicated by the fact that, as the decades have passed since the second Vatican council, Pope Francis represents what is the de facto living tradition of much of the RCC. For the majority of those younger than 40, the current situation is the one in which they were raised.)

Looking from a distance, I guess the perspective I like the best is akin to the line John B. often uses — “he’s only the Pope” and “hunker down for a few years.” If you really believe in the Catholic faith, you’ll ride it out. Until modern times with constant media coverage, the Pope was a man whose day-to-day actions meant very little in the lives of the faithful.

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

the priest at the Catholic where I attend said many times, leading up to the Pope's election something akin to: "We pray for wisdom for the college of cardinals, but also realize that the faith is lived here in the parish and in our daily lives, no matter who is pope."

Sometimes I think these years we're living in will be the first time in history that will record via machines what has happened one or two times in the history of the Roman Church:

they will change the meaning of some key aspect of dogma and doctrine important for "staying relevant", claiming it is what it meant all along, proof being that this new use brings more faithful, enforces unity etc, while separating itself from real keepers of tradition and, at the same time, claiming it is them who left the Church.

It's clear this is happening wih Liturgy, with Mariology, with attitude toward social issues. The most notable change though, was mentioned here as expressed by Pope Benedict and Pope Francis: it's a matter of emphasis that is very important. It's not that one of them denies either the Liturgy or social activity. But it's a trend that also exists in Orthodox circles, that some people see in the asketic and sacramental life of the Church the Christian life's very heart, while others see it in charity toward the neighbor and in social work.

It's a dilemma already solved by Christ Himself of course. Both Martha and Mary are right, one serving God with activity and the other with contemplation, but Mary's got the best part. Our age and time though, with all its emphasys on "change the world" issues is very "Martha". Even in Orthodoxy we hear now and then complaints about our "marian" emphasis on "mysticism". But that emphasis is given by Christ Himself. If any hierarch, orthodox or heterodox, changes the emphasis to Martha, that is a change in Christ's teaching.

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Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

I used to attend those "charismatic masses" at the Los Angeles Convention Center back in the 70's. Brings back memories. I sort of miss those times as the music still appeals to me believe it or not, yet I was so confused during that time as "the Mass" was very distracting and it became too hard to focus on what was supposed to be really happening. It became a circus with a lot of side shows. Did anyone notice the two smiling elderly ladies who were really enjoying the entertainment? As the camera zeroed in on them, they looked right at the camera and smiled. Focused on worship? What worship?

Lord have mercy.

I cannot watch any more of those videos.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Father Dominic's parish was having a festival in which a raffle was being held for a Jaguar. He bought a raffle ticket and decided to ask for help from the cloistered nuns at a nearby convent. "Sister Immaculata, do you know what a Jaguar is?", he asked. "Is it a big cat?", she asked. "No, a sports car, could you say a Novena for me to win one?" " oh, no!", replied Sister Immaculata, " I can't pray for you to win a car. But I will pray for any sick relatives you might have. " So Father Dom goes to a nearby Jesuit University to ask Father Ted for the same favor. "Father Ted" he asked, " do you know what a Jaguar is?" "Sure do! A really cool sports car" replied Father Ted enthusiastically. " great! Well, could you say a novena for me to win one? ". Puzzled, the Jesuit replied, "sure, but what's a Novena??? "

Father Dominic's parish was having a festival in which a raffle was being held for a Jaguar. He bought a raffle ticket and decided to ask for help from the cloistered nuns at a nearby convent. "Sister Immaculata, do you know what a Jaguar is?", he asked. "Is it a big cat?", she asked. "No, a sports car, could you say a Novena for me to win one?" " oh, no!", replied Sister Immaculata, " I can't pray for you to win a car. But I will pray for any sick relatives you might have. " So Father Dom goes to a nearby Jesuit University to ask Father Ted for the same favor. "Father Ted" he asked, " do you know what a Jaguar is?" "Sure do! A really cool sports car" replied Father Ted enthusiastically. " great! Well, could you say a novena for me to win one? ". Puzzled, the Jesuit replied, "sure, but what's a Novena??? "

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

It appears that even in a beautiful and venerable Byzantine Catholic Church here in the states, they are not immune from strange quasi-ritualistic events. (They could pick up a clue on proper decorum from their old country counterparts.)

I realize this was Andy Warhola' s home parish (Andy Warhol) but.... I don't know how things work in the BCC. Could the pastor decide this on his own or would he need a blessing from Metropolitan William?

I imagine the parish old timers at Rus'ka Dolina (nickname of St.Johns Church) were not amused. I could see a choral concert of religious themed music, even a Warhol retrospective in the vestibule if properly catalogued and curated, but this? No way. Too bad the Orthodox supporters there lost their lawsuit decades ago....

I know enough about Catholicism to know this does not appear to be part of a Mass. They are in cassocks and are not vested.

That being said, they do look silly - but happy. Yes, this looks like a Mel Brooks imagined scene with Richard Simmons leading "Simon Says." Old guys trying to look "cool" usually look silly and they do look silly, but cut them some slack here.

Also though, it is amazing how many young people were there and how genuine their love for God and THEIR CHURCH (not ours) seemed to be. Perhaps, we are a bit jealous?

My Bishop spent the last month at our diocesan summer camp sessions and really got to know the young people. I'm sure some of you would "tut tut" at the photos of him wearing a Pirates baseball camp while he enjoyed the dizzy bat race and laughing while the campers played with water balloons. He doesn't look serious, or stern or like he enjoyed sucking lemons. http://acrod.org/multimedia/photos/?setID=72157634914737082

There are plenty of liturgical issues with which to take issue with the Roman Catholics, but this doesn't seem to be one of them...

Looks like a fun time was had by all at camp! THIS was camp, however, and not a service....

I think it's great when our clergy and hierarchs interact with the youth. The kids are more likely to "relate" with someone who takes time to interact with them, at their level.

There's a time for solemnity and there's a time for frivolity. Both times are filled with joy, only differently.

I attended some of those Masses when I was a Catholic.It was more like a circus or a festival than a Holy Service.One cannot be called to repentance with such diversions.

When I started to attend the Divine Liturgy and became Orthodox, wow what a difference.

My husband told me that because all his attention was focused during the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, he needed to take a nap afterwards. I felt the same. In fact, almost all my Orthodox friends needed to take a nap on Sunday -- a peaceful time indeed where we smelled the incense and listened once again to the angels singing.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

And the Youtube video of the Papal Mass on the beach was hard to sit through. I miss Pope Benedict.

Just my opinion but I got the impression that Pope Benedict was "conservative" and this new Pope Francis a "Liberal".....I could be out of my element here but that's whats coming across to me.

Yes, he is a "liberal" when it comes to washing the feet of infidels and not judging "gay" people but all of the sudden Mr. Humility becomes a raging intolerant dictator whne it comes to the Tradtionalism and the TLM.

I've had about enough of this phony Jesuit already, they should've kept Benedict around even if he is a walking corpse the Church would be far better off than another touchy-feely, modernist who has nothing but resentment for the first 1950 yrs of the Church.

Weren't the Jesuits at one time considered the chief defenders of the Catholic Faith? How did the Jesuits go from Trads to Libs and when did this happen?

My take on Catholicism from an outsider to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism is that it just seems too Protestant.

I mean they make new things up everyday, they talk about Unity and how "we're all the same" even though they have a little Magisterial document Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus they seem to forget about. And the spontaneous manner of worship in their services mirrors that of a Protestant Church.

I mean, they just kind of pick what they like and sing those hymns. Orthodoxy is very ordered, it's the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and that's it. Maybe a few hymns here and there depending on the Feast day of X Saint or something but it isn't taking stuff at random and putting it together. Anyway, that's the experience I had at Mass.

It was a Novus Ordo Mass because it's the most mainstream in Catholicism. I could have gone Tridentine or Byzantine, but those are the minority expressions of Catholicism and I wasn't going to see what "little pockets" of Catholicism were like but what the whole Church's expression of the faith was.

The Divine Liturgy was not comparable, although, the Divine Liturgy I was experiencing was probably not at it's best. But with only 1-2 million parishioners in the country, I guess it's bound to happen.

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I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I mean they make new things up everyday, they talk about Unity and how "we're all the same" even though they have a little Magisterial document Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus they seem to forget about. And the spontaneous manner of worship in their services mirrors that of a Protestant Church.

They have a lot of documents, I'll give you that, but I don't recall one called Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, though there is a doctrine by that name which they still retain. If you read their other documents, you'll see that their perspective is a little more complicated than "we're all the same".

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I mean, they just kind of pick what they like and sing those hymns. Orthodoxy is very ordered, it's the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and that's it.

No. It's ordered, but it's not "Chrysostom or Death".

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Maybe a few hymns here and there depending on the Feast day of X Saint or something but it isn't taking stuff at random and putting it together. Anyway, that's the experience I had at Mass.

The dominance of the hymn sandwich in modern RCism is not proper to the Roman Liturgy. What is proper to the Roman Liturgy is the Proper, and that is not any less ordered than our own Liturgies.

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It was a Novus Ordo Mass because it's the most mainstream in Catholicism. I could have gone Tridentine or Byzantine, but those are the minority expressions of Catholicism and I wasn't going to see what "little pockets" of Catholicism were like but what the whole Church's expression of the faith was.

You did it wrong.

Even if you didn't feel the need to check out Eastern Catholicism to get a sense of "the whole Church's expression of the faith", I don't understand how you can seriously be aware of the "Tridentine" expression of Catholicism and not check it out because it's a "minority expression" of Catholicism. Only fifty years ago, that was the majority expression of Catholicism (in many places in the world it was the only expression of Catholicism), and it was ostensibly reform of this expression that brought the Novus Ordo into being. You can't really understand the Western tradition if you're basing it on the last fifty years.

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The Divine Liturgy was not comparable, although, the Divine Liturgy I was experiencing was probably not at it's best. But with only 1-2 million parishioners in the country, I guess it's bound to happen.

That has nothing to do with anything unless you think that, outside of North America, every Orthodox parish Liturgy is done as majestically as when the Patriarch of Moscow serves. It's not, and never has been. The "majesty" is elsewhere.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

I used to attend those "charismatic masses" at the Los Angeles Convention Center back in the 70's. Brings back memories. I sort of miss those times as the music still appeals to me believe it or not, yet I was so confused during that time as "the Mass" was very distracting and it became too hard to focus on what was supposed to be really happening. It became a circus with a lot of side shows. Did anyone notice the two smiling elderly ladies who were really enjoying the entertainment? As the camera zeroed in on them, they looked right at the camera and smiled. Focused on worship? What worship?

Lord have mercy.

I cannot watch any more of those videos.

Again, I don't think this was a mass. None of the Bishops were vested for liturgy.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I used to attend those "charismatic masses" at the Los Angeles Convention Center back in the 70's. Brings back memories. I sort of miss those times as the music still appeals to me believe it or not, yet I was so confused during that time as "the Mass" was very distracting and it became too hard to focus on what was supposed to be really happening. It became a circus with a lot of side shows. Did anyone notice the two smiling elderly ladies who were really enjoying the entertainment? As the camera zeroed in on them, they looked right at the camera and smiled. Focused on worship? What worship?

Lord have mercy.

I cannot watch any more of those videos.

Again, I don't think this was a mass. None of the Bishops were vested for liturgy.

Again, have you ever attended a Charismatic Convention at the Anaheim Convention Center? I attended at least five, and they are like a circus, let me tell you, with dancing girls, incense swirling, dancing deacons, hands clapping, music blaring from the loud speakers, guitars strumming, and drums and cymbals beating. The ones in the videos were mild in comparison with the ethnic Charismatic Masses with elaborate processionals with different costumes representing peoples from all over the world. My, Oh my.

Only one priest needs to be vested to celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass, the others would only wear a stole to concelebrate, and the bishops would usually stand at the side.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 10:32:31 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

I used to attend those "charismatic masses" at the Los Angeles Convention Center back in the 70's. Brings back memories. I sort of miss those times as the music still appeals to me believe it or not, yet I was so confused during that time as "the Mass" was very distracting and it became too hard to focus on what was supposed to be really happening. It became a circus with a lot of side shows. Did anyone notice the two smiling elderly ladies who were really enjoying the entertainment? As the camera zeroed in on them, they looked right at the camera and smiled. Focused on worship? What worship?

Lord have mercy.

I cannot watch any more of those videos.

Again, I don't think this was a mass. None of the Bishops were vested for liturgy.

Again, have you ever attended a Charismatic Convention at the Anaheim Convention Center? I attended at least five.Only one priest needs to be vested to celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass, the others would only wear a stole, and the bishops would usually stand at the side.

Yes, I have been to one. I obviously don't approve. But in the pic above, none of the bishops were at the altar, so it seems that they were not at mass. No need to assume that they were at mass.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Yes, I have been to one. I obviously don't approve. But in the pic above, none of the bishops were at the altar, so it seems that they were not at mass. No need to assume that they were at mass.

Only one! The bishops would sit on the sides while the priests concelebrated the Mass.

Again, have you ever witnessed an ethnic Charismatic Mass? The entrance procession could take as long as 30 to 60 minutes alone.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

One of my friends recently went to an ethnic Charismatic Mass in Orange County a few months ago.

The program said that there would be various ethnic dances preceding the Mass while they waited for the priests and bishops to vest. This part of the program lasted one hour and involved Native Americans dancing up the aisles dressed in various tribal dress and feathered headgear accompanied by drums. Other natives peoples were also present and also danced up the aisle: Samoans, Africans, etc.

Let me ask you, how does this prepare one to receive Christ the Lord. How can one be reflective, sober, and prayerful in the midst of all this dancing?

« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 10:42:42 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

One of my friends recently went to an ethnic Charismatic Mass in Orange County a few months ago.

The program said that there would be various ethnic dances preceding the Mass while they waited for the priests and bishops to vest. This part of the program lasted one hour and involved Native Americans dancing up the aisles dressed in various tribal dress and feathered headgear accompanied by drums. Other natives peoples were also present and also danced up the aisle: Samoans, Africans, etc.

Let me ask you, how does this prepare one to receive Christ the Lord. How can one be reflective, sober, and prayerful in the midst of all this dancing?

One of my friends recently went to an ethnic Charismatic Mass in Orange County a few months ago.

The program said that there would be various ethnic dances preceding the Mass while they waited for the priests and bishops to vest. This part of the program lasted one hour and involved Native Americans dancing up the aisles dressed in various tribal dress and feathered headgear accompanied by drums. Other natives peoples were also present and also danced up the aisle: Samoans, Africans, etc.

Let me ask you, how does this prepare one to receive Christ the Lord. How can one be reflective, sober, and prayerful in the midst of all this dancing?

Did VATII open up a can of worms???

yes, labeled "inculturation".

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Quote from: Elder Thaddeus of Vitovnica

Only one person who is prayerfully connected to God is needed, and we will have peace everywhere -- in the family, at work, in the government, and everywhere.