Jesus was a master of Kabbalah

OK, so I've been reading through the sight your linked (Ha Qabala) and I have to say it
approximates Kabbalistic teachings as I've studied them only in the very slightest of details. None of this comes from Jewish tradition, except for
some of the names. The meanings, the stories and the beliefs have been changed to create an entirely new belief systems which is very alien to and
remote from Judaism and Jewish kabbalah.

I've got a link here that's very good at describing Orthodox Jewish traditions and traditional Jewish kabbalah that you might like to read - believe
me, it will give you a lot greater insight into what kabbalah actually is than the site you've just found. You might find that it's not all
anti-Christian blasphemy (although, because it is Jewish and not Christian kabbalah, you might find some of the messianic interpretations blasphemous
because Christ does not figure one iota into it). Kosher Kabbalah Yeah, yeah, I know the name's pretty
lame...

EDIT: This is to your latest post BW, but "practical" kabbalah, as it were, is very different to contemplative kabbalah, which I don't think
you'll find to be occult or blasphemous - it describes in a speculative way the nature of God, how He interacts with his creation, and ways of
intense prayer to draw oneself close to Him. Most importantly, it teaches one how to infuse every single action with 'spirituality', to make sure
that each motion you make is in service of the Lord. Also, Christianity has a very long history of take kabbalah and making it acceptable for the
Church, so you might want to investigate that. The demon-raising and amulet side of things is just a very small part of what kaballah is actually all
about - and the Torah very explicitly forbids sorcery and witchcraft, so Orthodox Jews are particularly careful not to stray into those areas.

And to Chromatico - I think you'll find that I acknowledged in that post that our discussion was off-topic and that if we wished to continue it we
should move it to another thread. I seem to remember you challenged me to find Talmudic reference to rabbis performing the same miracles as Jesus -
which I did - but you haven't really replied to it since then. What's up with that?

I would love to discuss this with you more because I have very good Jewish friends (I'm assuming you're Jewish, but really have no idea). But right
now I am very tired and have to go off-line. Perhaps we can pick this up at a later time. Kapich? Did I say that right?

Originally posted by rexpop
Here is an excellent essay on Talmudic and Rabbinic exorcism faculty.biu.ac.il... which gives full references and is much
more scholarly that I can manage. We see here that when conducting exorcism, Jesus was just one in a long line of Jewish luminaries so to do.
Indeed, if you read the part about Rabbi Hanina ben Dosa you'll notice that he too was put in a cave and a large stone rolled in front of the exit
which was moved aside for him by mystical (in this case, demonic) means.

Also, of Rabbi Chiyya it is said that he could make the wind blow and the rain to fall by his prayers. The Talmud hints he could even raise the dead
if he so wished (Baba Mezi'a 85b).

Rabbah and Rabbi Zera have a competition of sorts at creating and destroying a "golem", but this is following a narrative when Rabbah killed R. Zera
and then resurrected him (Sanhedrin 65b).

Another amazing resource on this subject I'd recommend you read is a book called "Workers of Wonder" by Byron L Sherwin.

OK, so outside of the essay (which is packed with references) I haven't been able to dig up many Christ-like miracles myself, but that's not because
they're not in the Talmud, it's because I don't have a Talmud with me and searching the net is laborious. I've chosen the two above because their
both famous examples, and both show that Jesus was not unique in bringing people back from the dead, and the essay I linked talks a lot about
exorcism, the other miracle Jesus is really famous for. I'm afraid I don't know of an example of a rabbi turning water into wine, but then that
doesn't mean one doesn't exist - I haven't read the whole Talmud. It's bloody massive.

I hope this is enough to prove that I wasn't just making spurious claims, Chrome, but I'll keep looking and adding more examples. Also, I think I
should note that I found many more examples on the net, but as they weren't properly referenced (so I couldn't tell you where in the Talmud you
should look to corroborate my claims) I haven't included them here.

EDIT: To add info about Eliyahu, who also raised the dead and ascended to heaven in his physical body:

According to the Books of Kings, Elijah raised the dead, brought fire down from the sky, and ascended into heaven on a whirlwind. In the New
Testament, both Jesus and John the Baptist are on some occasions thought to be Elijah, the latter actually being described by the Archangel Gabriel as
coming "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17)

Well I didn't even have to look much at all before it contradicted the Old Testament.

Angelic beings fall into two general categories -- those which were created during the six days of Creation (referred to as the "ministering
angels") and those which are created on a day-to-day basis to fulfill various missions in this world. The names of the angels change in accordance
with their mission.

The Angels were not created in the 6 day account.
Your KOSHER Kabbalah Contradicts the Biblcal account in which the Angels were already created before the six days
Job 38
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

Don't forget, Jews have the Oral Torah, as well as the Written Torah. When you read what you call the "old" testament, you're only getting half
the story according to Judaism.

The only way believing that God made angels during the six days of creation would "directly contradict" the Bible is if the Bible stated "God
definitely did not make any angels in the six days", which it doesn't. In fact, the Written Torah doesn't disclose one way or another
whether angels were made - the Oral Torah tells us that some were.

Again, like I said, I don't expect you to change your Christian beliefs - Judaism and Christianity are very different religions for all their
similarities, and just as I find your religion unsatisfying, you're going to find mine unsatisfying. I only linked you to that site so you could get
an authentic Jewish understanding of kabbalah because the site you'd found before was so off the mark as to be insulting and blasphemous. Just like I
find prostrating yourself before graven images and worshipping a human as God to be highly blasphemous, you're going to find the parts of Judaism
that disagree with Christianity to be abhorrent to you. But I'm not trying to convert you, just trying to show you what we believe. You don't have
to believe it.

Your KOSHER Kabbalah Contradicts the Biblcal account in which the Angels were already created before the six days

Ah, also, the site says that the angels were made during the six days, not before. Nothing but God existed before the creation. The first
angel, according to Jewish tradition, was created on the second day.

EDIT: To clarify - Jewish tradition isn't uniform on this belief, and you're absolutely right, BW, some sources say that myriads of angels were
created before the first day of creation.

Most Jewish sources also say that something else was created before the first day of creation (by 2000 years, in fact) which is the Torah.

Let me try. We BELIEVE Job is the oldest assembled book, based on Mesopotamian parallels. We do not have it as the "oldest manuscript" AFAIK.
The earlier (chronologically) books were assembled from oral tradition after Job.

Well the Hebrew scholar that I believe, Dr John Salhimmer, says the six days isn't about the creation of the universe at all but the preparation of
the Garden for man. The Hebrew word reshet gets translated to "In the Beginning" this always stands for a period of time , not a point in time. The
creation of the universe actually occurred "In the Beginning" like the first line of Genesis says. The six day account that follows is god
preparing a place for man.

That's an interesting interpretation, I'll look more into it. My interpretation of the creation story is that it's not in anyway literal but purely
allegorical and mystical, and once we understand its insights better we'll come to a much greater comprehension of the beginning of all matter and
life, and also gain a greater knowledge of the inner-workings of God.

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