Science does not inform morality, it is a system for the accumulation of knowledge and the investigation of the universe not declarations of what is right or wrong or how things are said to have been caused by revealed truth (of course when a scientific theory to explain the evidence is put forth and accepted it is not immutable and can be discarded with the accumulation of evidence that it cannot explain).

I "believe" in individualism and liberty, the right for people to be ex-gays is perfectly fine by me but at the same time the evidence of human sexuality points that most people can't change their orientation and if they can prayer would probably be a pretty bad way to go about it (evidence such as faith based addiction programs having results on par with people going it alone would be supporting evidence - the stats on how many ex gays keep on the straight and narrow so to speak could settle this little debate).

I take exception to the agenda of these groups when they overstep the boundaries of the secular state and want to promulgate anti-gay literature into the public education system or supress material which says that it's okay for gay teens to be open about their sexuality. That's discriminatory.

They cite psychological harm they caused gays as the ministry, Exodus International, meets in Irvine.

By Rebecca Trounson, Times Staff
June 28, 2007

Three former leaders of Exodus International, often described as the nation's largest ex-gay ministry, publicly apologized Wednesday for the harm they said their efforts had caused many gays and lesbians who believed the group's message that sexual orientation could be changed through prayer.

Speaking at a Hollywood news conference, the former leaders of the interdenominational Christian organization said they had acted sincerely in their years of work with Exodus. But they said they had all, over time, become disillusioned with the group's ideas and concerned about what they described as the wrenching human toll of such gay conversion efforts.

The news event, in a courtyard outside an office of the Los Angeles Gay & Lesbian Center, was timed to coincide with the opening of Exodus' annual conference, which is being held this week at Concordia University in Irvine. A competing "ex-gay survivor" convention is to begin Friday at UC Irvine.

The former leaders from Exodus cast its work in grim terms.

"Some who heard our message were compelled to try to change an integral part of themselves, bringing harm to themselves and their families," the three, including former Exodus co-founder Michael Bussee, said in a joint written statement presented at the news conference. "Although we acted in good faith, we have since witnessed the isolation, shame, fear and loss of faith that this message creates."

Now a licensed family therapist in Riverside, Bussee left Exodus in 1979 after he fell in love with a man who was a fellow ex-gay counselor with the group. He speaks out frequently against ex-gay therapies.

"God's love and forgiveness does indeed change people," said Bussee, who remains an evangelical Christian. "It changed me. It just didn't make me straight."

Others speaking at Wednesday's news conference included Jeremy Marks, former president of Exodus International Europe, and Darlene Bogle, the founder and former director of Paraklete Ministries, an Exodus referral agency based in Hayward, Calif.

All three said they had known people who had tried to change their sexual orientation with the help of the group but had failed, often becoming depressed or even suicidal as a result.

"We are committed Christians, but we're still gay," said Marks, who heads Courage UK, a gay-affirming evangelical ministry based in England.

Among those at the news conference was the Rev. Mel White, founder and president of a faith-based gay rights group called Soulforce. White, who was the ghostwriter for the Rev. Jerry Falwell's autobiography and later came out as gay, praised the former Exodus leaders.

The Exodus meeting is expected to attract about 1,000 people, Chambers said. Chambers, who is married and has children, said he and other current Exodus officials are careful to warn those who seek help that such a path is not easy.

Sexual orientation "isn't a light switch that you can switch on and off," he said.

Good article!! Mel White's story is amazing. I still can't believe what he had to go through. He is one of Philip Yancey and his wife's best friends. Yancey has a whole chapter about him in "What's So Amazing About Grace". I would say that it really was a pivotal moment in me changing the prejudices and ignorances I used to have against homosexuals. I still struggle sometimes with the Biblical passages on homosexuality, but ultimately I have to remember how things may have been translated improperly, and I have no business looking at someone else's life. If he/she feels they have peace with God, I have NO business questioning that even a little bit.

Originally posted by joyfulgirl Yeah, I know someone who became straight, too. After leading an openly gay life for many years, AIDS and the Christian church scared the shit out of him. So he became straight. He married a woman and had a child. He hates his wife and women in general and never misses an opportunity to put her down in public. He's angry, hateful, resentful, critical, drinks too much, and goes to church on Sunday to repent. They've not shared a bed since their daughter was conceived (she's 16 now) and when you ask her what daddy does for a living she answers, "I don't know. Mom and I don't know. We never see him. He has some kind of secret life." They've been "together" now for 25 years. It's so beautiful how he was able to turn his life around. Praise the Lord.

Wait, do you mean Praise the Lord that he was able to become straight or go back to being gay? I didn't understand that part.

Wait, do you mean Praise the Lord that he was able to become straight or go back to being gay? I didn't understand that part.

I believe she was being sarcastic. She was basically trying to say "Praise the Lord" sarcastically that this guy has ruined his life, his wife, and his daughter's because of the teaching of the Ex gay movement or whatever they're calling it now. Sorry to speak for you joyful girl; I wasn't sure if you were still here! If I'm completely off,

I do believe some people are genetically disposed at birth or otherwise to be gay.

I do believe that some people are confused (not in a deragotory way), asexual or bisexual. Some of these people kind of switch back and forth, with no real preference or orientation.

I believe that any kind of major emotional experience, or change in life direction (say religious) could easily move this group one direction or another.

I can and does happen.

Is it God? Sure. In some cases. Is it their mind? Sure, in some cases. Is it peer pressure? Sure, in some cases. Is it just them and who they are? Yes.

Although Christ didn't explicity come out against homosexuality, he did support the tenants of most of the OT. We all know that many writers/prophets of the OT explicitly came out against homosexuality.

Of course Paul, also supported these writers/prophets, and explicitly came out against homosexuality in the NT.

I guess that's about as far as the Bible takes it. The rest is up to you!