Hallowvrybuddy, Foo here. I am coming with another strategy post! Today, we will be discussing the skill order on many AP middle lane champions.

There are two things that are very important for middle lane champions:

1. Creep Clear
2. Burst Damage

Most skill orders for AP champions are made to optimize one of these, so let's look at many APs that don't prioritize creep clear on their skills order. Sometimes it is because they have another, more important, priority, and other times, it is simply because the skill order isn't optimal.

I feel that some underplayed APs are viewed as subpar because they don't use the best skill order. People play them, look up a guide, and play the champion wrong, making them think he/she is weaker than they actually are.

What I do, is list what skill is commonly maxed, and an alternate skill maxing that gives extra creep clear, then I compare the two number wise, and then I finally give a verdict on whether it is worth it.

NOTE:

If there is a champion that I missed, please tell me. I didn't list any AD mids, but if some one asks, I'll look into them and add them. Keep in mind that champs that already max their creep clear spells are not listed here. Some of these are champs that I don't play, so there may be some details that I've missed, so please points that out if there is one. (i.e. how many levels/items it takes for Noxious Blast to wipe a caster minion wave.)

NOTE TWO:

I listed the total damage for each spell. If there is a second way to deal damage, it’s included. (i.e. Counted Anivia’s Q double hitting, and E hitting while chilled)

Cons:

Skill comparison:

Verdict: Worth it.

Annie is all about burst, and this gives you more burst. Sometimes you need a second Q to finish off your enemy laner after a combo, but usually a level 1 or b2 Disintegrate will be enough in that case.

You also get great creep clear, so you can gank other lanes with that AOE stun on Summon: Tibbers. It also makes it much easier to clear wraiths.

The only real downside is that you have to wait for minions to be really low before you can Disintegrate it for a stack on Pyromania(If you want the mana refund, that is.) Otherwise, you can just Q a minion for a stack.

Cons:

Skill comparison:

Verdict: Worth it.

Trading a little bit of DPS for extra creep clear and better lane poke is worth it. Not to mention, E is a huge early mana drain early on. I don’t play cass, so I don’t know what it takes to wipe a caster wave, but I would max it till then (4 ranks in it?) then max E.

Skill comparison:

Verdict: Worth it.

I don’t actually play kass, but Salce has my back on this one. Maxing E will let you push wave and then go roaming more easily. The bigger slow also makes ganking easier. However, having a shorter silence can hurt your lane dominance,(but usually you will win lane anyway).

Skill comparison:

Verdict: Worth it.

The improved creep clear lets you clear waves much faster, letting you roam/ farm elsewhere. The lower cooldown also gives you more opportunities to be aggressive, and use Nevermove twice in a mid-game team fight. Max Decrepify if you are laning against someone who is going to fight you at close range and try to kill you. (i.e. AD mids like Lee Sin, Pantheon etc.)

Spoiler: Click to view

Nope! Chuck Testa! On Veigar, I have tried maxing W for both creep clear and extra burst, but I have still not decided whether it's worth it or now. Maybe I'll put him in the next one, or if some one asks me to put him here.

P.S. If you like this strategy thread, give me a +rep :)

If there is something you don't agree with, post what it is below. If there is something wrong, or a typo, please point that out too.

Next time, I will make an almost identical thread, but with burst damage instead of creep clear.

Thanks for reading :D

[quote=Foo18][h2]Hallowvrybuddy, Foo here. I am coming with another strategy post! Today, we will be discussing the skill order on many AP middle lane champions.[/h2]
There are two things that are very important for middle lane champions:
1. Creep Clear
2. Burst Damage
Most skill orders for AP champions are made to optimize one of these, so let's look at many APs that don't prioritize creep clear on their skills order. Sometimes it is because they have another, more important, priority, and other times, it is simply because the skill order isn't optimal.
I feel that some underplayed APs are viewed as subpar because they don't use the best skill order. People play them, look up a guide, and play the champion wrong, making them think he/she is weaker than they actually are.
What I do, is list what skill is commonly maxed, and an alternate skill maxing that gives extra creep clear, then I compare the two number wise, and then I finally give a verdict on whether it is worth it.
[h3]NOTE:[/h3] If there is a champion that I missed, please tell me. I didn't list any AD mids, but if some one asks, I'll look into them and add them. Keep in mind that champs that already max their creep clear spells are not listed here. Some of these are champs that I don't play, so there may be some details that I've missed, so please points that out if there is one. (i.e. how many levels/items it takes for [[noxious blast]] to wipe a caster minion wave.)
[h3]NOTE TWO:[/h3]I listed the total damage for each spell. If there is a second way to deal damage, it’s included. (i.e. Counted Anivia’s Q double hitting, and E hitting while chilled)
[icon=anivia size=50]
[spoiler][h3]Commonly maxed skills:[/h3] [[Frostbite]]
[h3]Alternate maxed skills:[/h3] [[Flash Frost]]
[h3]Pros:[/h3]-Better Creep Clear
-Lower CD on your stun
[h3]Cons:[/h3]-Less DPS
[h3]Skill comparison:[/h3]
[[Frostbite]]-110-170-230-290-350 CD: 5 Scaling: 60 damage/level
[[flash frost]]-120/180/240/300/360 CD: 12/11/10/9/8 Scaling: 60 damage/level
[h3]Verdict: [color=#ff0000] Not worth it.[/color][/h3]
You already have your ult to clear creep, and while your stun is nice to have on a lower CD, the damage is better.[/spoiler]
[icon=annie size=50]
[spoiler][h3]Commonly maxed skill:[/h3][[disintegrate]]
[h3]Alternate maxed skill:[/h3][[incinerate]]
[h3]Pros:[/h3]-More Creep Clear
-Increased Burst
[h3]Cons:[/h3]-Less DPS
-Slightly harder to charge your stun
[h3]Skill comparison:[/h3]
[[disintegrate]] 85/125/165/205/245 CD:4 Scaling: 40 Damage/level
[[incinerate]] 80/130/180/230/280 CD:4 Scaling: 50 Damage/level
[h3]Verdict: [color=#00ff00]Worth it.[/color][/h3]
Annie is all about burst, and this gives you more burst. Sometimes you need a second Q to finish off your enemy laner after a combo, but usually a level 1 or b2 [[disintegrate]] will be enough in that case.
You also get great creep clear, so you can gank other lanes with that AOE stun on [[summon tibbers]]. It also makes it much easier to clear wraiths.
The only real downside is that you have to wait for minions to be really low before you can [[disintegrate]] it for a stack on [[pyromania]](If you want the mana refund, that is.) Otherwise, you can just Q a minion for a stack.[/spoiler]
[icon=Cassiopeia size=50]
[Spoiler][h3]Commonly maxed skill:[/h3] [[Twin Fang]] (Not everyone maxes [[twin fang]], but a lot of people like to)
[h3]Alternate maxed skill:[/h3] [[Noxious blast]] ([[miasma]] works better creep clear technically, but just trust me that it’s bad)
[h3]Pros:[/h3]-Better Creep Clear
-Better poke
-Better chasing
[h3]Cons:[/h3]-Worse burst
-Worse DPS
[h3]Skill comparison:[/h3]
-[[Twin Fang]] 50/85/120/155/190 CD: 5 (.5 if poisoned) Scaling: 35 damage/level
-[[noxious blast]] 75/115/155/195/235 CD: 3 Scaling: 40 damage/level
[h3]Verdict: [color=#00ff00]Worth it.[/color][/h3]
Trading a little bit of DPS for extra creep clear and better lane poke is worth it. Not to mention, E is a huge early mana drain early on. I don’t play cass, so I don’t know what it takes to wipe a caster wave, but I would max it till then (4 ranks in it?) then max E.[/spoiler]
[icon=Kassadin size=50]
[spoiler][h3]Commonly maxed skill:[/h3] [[Void Sphere]] (A few guides say to max E, but most say to max Q)
[h3]Alternate maxed skill:[/h3] [[force pulse]]
[h3]Pros:[/h3]-Better creep clear
-Better slow
-Makes you less mana hungry
[h3]Cons:[/h3]-Lower silence time
-[[force pulse]] might not be up as often
[h3]Skill comparison:[/h3]
-[[null sphere]] 80/130/180/230/280 CD: 9 Scaling: 50 damage/level
-[[force pulse]] 80/130/180/230/280 CD 6 Scaling: 50 damage/level
[h3]Verdict:[color=#008000] Worth it.[/color][/h3]
I don’t actually play kass, but Salce has my back on this one. Maxing E will let you push wave and then go roaming more easily. The bigger slow also makes ganking easier. However, having a shorter silence can hurt your lane dominance,(but usually you will win lane anyway).[/spoiler]
[icon=Leblanc size=50]
[spoiler][h3]Commonly maxed skills:[/h3] [[Sigil of silence]]
[h3]Alternate maxed skill:[/h3] [[distortion]]
[h3]Pros:[/h3]-Increased creep clear.
-Shorter cooldown on your escape.
[h3]Cons:[/h3]-Reduced DPS
-Reduced burst
[h3]Skill comparison:[/h3]
-[[sigil of silence]] 90/150/210/270/330 CD-6 Scaling: 60 damage/level
-[[sigil of silence]] 85/125/165/205/245 CD-18/16/14/12/10 Scaling: 40 damage/level
[h3]Verdict: [color=#ff0000]Not worth it.[/color][/h3] That’s 85 damage at level 9, and you also lose a lot of damage on your ult. However, I usually take an early second point in W and max Q by 10. That gives you better wave push.[/spoiler]
[icon=Swain size=50]
[spoiler][h3]Commonly (Second) maxed skill:[/h3] [[decrepify]]
[h3]Alternate (Second) maxed skill:[/h3] [[nevermove]]
[h3]Pros:[/h3]-Extra Creep Clear
-More AOE damage
-Shorter CD on your snare
[h3]Cons:[/h3]-Less single target damage.
-Less consistent damage.
-Less slow.
[h3]Skill comparison:[/h3]
-[[decrepify]] 75/120/165/210/255 CD:8 Scaling-55 damage/level- 5% slow/level.
-[[nevermove]] 80/120/160/200/240 CD: 18/16/14/12/10 Scaling-40 damage/level
[h3]Verdict: [color=#008000]Worth it.[/color][/h3]
The improved creep clear lets you clear waves much faster, letting you roam/ farm elsewhere. The lower cooldown also gives you more opportunities to be aggressive, and use [[nevermove]] twice in a mid-game team fight. Max [[decrepify]] if you are laning against someone who is going to fight you at close range and try to kill you. (i.e. AD mids like [[lee sin]], [[pantheon]] etc.)[/spoiler]
[icon=veigar size=50]
[Spoiler]Nope! Chuck Testa! On [[veigar]], I have tried maxing W for both creep clear and extra burst, but I have still not decided whether it's worth it or now. Maybe I'll put him in the next one, or if some one asks me to put him here.[/spoiler]
P.S. If you like this strategy thread, give me a [color=#800080]+rep[/color] :)
If there is something you don't agree with, post what it is below. If there is something wrong, or a typo, please point that out too.
Next time, I will make an almost identical thread, but with burst damage instead of creep clear.
Thanks for reading :D[/quote]

__________________________________Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance of your ignorance is bliss._________________________________

Lots of questions and other stuff:
How does maxing Annie's Incinerate make it "Slightly harder to charge your stun"?

Also: "The only real downside is that you have to wait for minions to be really low before you can Disintegrate it for a stack on Pyromania."
You can use Disintegrate whenever to get a stack of Pyromania, although it is better to use it to last hit. Include it somewhere so readers won't take it the wrong way and think you have no clue what you're talking about. That's the impression it gave me at first, but I know you know what you're talking about :3

[quote=DemonSovereign]Lots of questions and other stuff:
How does maxing [[annie]]'s [[incinerate]] make it "Slightly harder to charge your stun"?
Also: "The only real downside is that you have to wait for minions to be really low before you can [[Disintegrate]] it for a stack on [[Pyromania]]."
You can use [[disintegrate]] whenever to get a stack of [[pyromania]], although it is better to use it to last hit. Include it somewhere so readers won't take it the wrong way and think you have no clue what you're talking about. That's the impression it gave me at first, but I know you know what you're talking about :3
You should correct some of the BBCoding:
"[[flashfrost]]" which is actually [[flash frost]].
"[[Void Sphere" you forgot the ending double brackets.
"[[forcepulse]]" you had it right previously in the spoiler-> [[force pulse]]
I don't really know about maxing [[force pulse]] first, since you need the five spell casts or else you can't push with it.
You should mention lower CD for ranking up [[nevermove]] in the Pros. You did mention it later on, but could be included in the Pros as well.
You should also mention [[decrepify]] sets up a better gank.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply I fixed the typos you listed. But here are the things that were meant to be there.

Maybe I didn't word it optimally, but maxing W makes your Q do less damage, so you have to wait for the minions to get REALLY low before you can Q them (if you want the mana refund.) I added the "if you want mana return" just in case some people are not familiar with Annie. That makes it a little bit more difficult to charge your stun up. If you max Q, you can pretty much Q any minion for a last hit.

As for Decrepify being better for ganks, that is part of "better slow." If I had to list everything that a bigger slow helped with, I would have a long list.

Thanks for replying! I was beginning to worry no one would reply O:

P.S. I just accidentally closed the page for a guide I was working on without saving when I went to go get salce's guide Dx
DKLFJSDKFJDBSFKLJSDDS

Now I have to do the rune breakdown part again :(

[quote=Foo18]Thanks for the reply I fixed the typos you listed. But here are the things that were meant to be there.
Maybe I didn't word it optimally, but maxing W makes your Q do less damage, so you have to wait for the minions to get REALLY low before you can Q them (if you want the mana refund.) I added the "if you want mana return" just in case some people are not familiar with [[annie]]. That makes it a little bit more difficult to charge your stun up. If you max Q, you can pretty much Q any minion for a last hit.
I don't actually play [[kassadin]] so, I don't know how hard it is to have your E up. What I do know is that salce (a very good [[kassadin]]) maxed E. Here's the guide http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=31570-salce-kassadin-build-guide
As for [[decrepify]] being better for ganks, that is part of "better slow." If I had to list everything that a bigger slow helped with, I would have a long list.
Thanks for replying! I was beginning to worry no one would reply O:
P.S. I just accidentally closed the page for a guide I was working on without saving when I went to go get salce's guide Dx
DKLFJSDKFJDBSFKLJSDDS
Now I have to do the rune breakdown part again :([/quote]

__________________________________Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance of your ignorance is bliss._________________________________

Seems pretty cool! Don't have time to read it all but I wanted to point out that this would make a good blog post. I didn't know if you knew you could make blog posts since you are new. The option is in a bar above your info on your profile page. :)

[quote=Mowen]Seems pretty cool! Don't have time to read it all but I wanted to point out that this would make a good blog post. I didn't know if you knew you could make blog posts since you are new. The option is in a bar above your info on your profile page. :)[/quote]

I was vaguely aware of this, but I didn't think it was what I wanted, though I may be wrong. I have a few questions, though.

1. Can people respond to it?
2. How many people will view it?
3. Would anyone be mad if I posted it in GD and in a blog?

I want a discussion (I learn a lot by posting my strategy), and I want as many people to view it as possible (without doing dumb tricks to get views). I don't think anyone will want to read a blog some guy named "Foo18" who nobody has heard of.

EDIT: Forgot to say, I also post these threads to the official forums as well as solomid.net.

[quote=Foo18]I was vaguely aware of this, but I didn't think it was what I wanted, though I may be wrong. I have a few questions, though.
1. Can people respond to it?
2. How many people will view it?
3. Would anyone be mad if I posted it in GD and in a blog?
I want a discussion (I learn a lot by posting my strategy), and I want as many people to view it as possible (without doing dumb tricks to get views). I don't think anyone will want to read a blog some guy named "Foo18" who nobody has heard of.
EDIT: Forgot to say, I also post these threads to the official forums as well as solomid.net.[/quote]

__________________________________Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance of your ignorance is bliss._________________________________

You can post it both in your blog and on the general site. Yes, people can comment on a blog post, and you can respond. Also, if you still have 1500+ ELO, you should consider having it verified so you get the icon below your name.

[quote=The Overmyynd]You can post it both in your blog and on the general site. Yes, people can comment on a blog post, and you can respond. Also, if you still have 1500+ ELO, you should consider having it verified so you get the icon below your name.[/quote]

Hey, if you liked any advice i gave, be sure to +rep me! Oh, and check out my Shaco and Maokail lorecraft in my Blog! I'm a starving artist in need of attention, so please feel free to read, respond, and critique me! Please? Anybody that leaves a comment (good or bad) will receive a +rep!

You can post it both in your blog and on the general site. Yes, people can comment on a blog post, and you can respond. Also, if you still have 1500+ ELO, you should consider having it verified so you get the icon below your name.

I have, but I don't have 50 solo que games yet, but I'm working on that. Also working on getting to plat.

But, if I can post it in both places, I don't see why not. So, I guess that's what I'll do.

[quote=Foo18][quote=The Overmyynd]
You can post it both in your blog and on the general site. Yes, people can comment on a blog post, and you can respond. Also, if you still have 1500+ ELO, you should consider having it verified so you get the icon below your name.
[/quote]
I have, but I don't have 50 solo que games yet, but I'm working on that. Also working on getting to plat.
But, if I can post it in both places, I don't see why not. So, I guess that's what I'll do.[/quote]

__________________________________Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance of your ignorance is bliss._________________________________

I see what you mean about kassadin and i somewhat see it working but 1 second silence simply isn't enough, get 2 early Q's and then max E it gives you 40% longer silence duration for just 1 skill point and you'll still have a maxed E by level 9.

[quote=Pølsemanden]All good cass's max Q(at least until 3-4 ranks in it).
I see what you mean about kassadin and i somewhat see it working but 1 second silence simply isn't enough, get 2 early Q's and then max E it gives you 40% longer silence duration for just 1 skill point and you'll still have a maxed E by level 9.[/quote]

Ty MM and Blood for the sigs :3 | Rammus is comming back - heard it here first!

Yeah, I only listed it because a few guides on solomid (they are no longer approved because they weren't updated for S3) suggested maxing E and Cass's I have played with/against seem to max E as often as not.

I don't play kass, so I don't know. If you can tell me how many levels and items you need for E to wipe wave, then we can make a better decision on it. I don't have kass, so I can't really test it.

[quote=Foo18]Yeah, I only listed it because a few guides on solomid (they are no longer approved because they weren't updated for S3) suggested maxing E and Cass's I have played with/against seem to max E as often as not.
I don't play kass, so I don't know. If you can tell me how many levels and items you need for E to wipe wave, then we can make a better decision on it. I don't have kass, so I can't really test it.[/quote]

__________________________________Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance of your ignorance is bliss._________________________________