Body Cells Carry Emotional Memory

I found the theory that body cells carry emotional memories to be a true one. During my 38 years of clinical experience, numerous times I have witnessed the emotional reactions of my patients/clients to soft tissue mobilization. To more clearly explain this phenomenon, I would like to share one of my most interesting clinical experiences with you that support the theory of emotional memory being carried body cells.

Over 20 years ago, I treated one of the world-renowned boxers of the time from a shoulder injury. The right shoulder had a severe sprain/strain case with suspicion of possible rotator cuff tear. As with all such cases, after 24 hours of cold application procedures (cold application must be applied no more than 10-15 minutes and must be repeated every two hours) we started intensive massage therapy on the unaffected side in order to awake vasomotor reflex that will express by increasing blood supply to the injured extremities. I began to follow the treatment protocol for the above-mentioned purposes, starting to mobilize all groups of rotator cuff muscles layer by layer, as well as the anterior, posterior, and middle part of the deltoid muscles. As he was receiving the massage therapy, suddenly this big, tough, extremely strong man started crying, vocalizing sounds like that of a little boy. He was confused and expressed his embarrassment at breaking down in tears.

Being familiar with the theory that body cells carry emotional memory, I suggested to him to cry out whatever this emotional memory was. The sport clinical psychologist was informed of the incident. During his evaluation, this professional athlete, with the help of the psychologist, recovered a memory from his deep subconscious of an event that happened to him when he was eight years old.

Briefly, the story was that the boy's grandfather (his mother's father) once interrupted the constant fight between the boy's father and alcoholic mother; his grandfather attacked his father with a hammer. Afterward, the father was delivered in critical condition to the hospital and the grandfather was arrested. During this period of time, the little boy future boxing champion fell, off his bicycle and hurt his left shoulder. Crying, he came to his mom who was screaming into the phone, and asked her to comfort him because of the pain in his shoulder. His mother reacted in anger, and took his pleas as just whining for attention and she hit him with the phone a few times on this painful shoulder. All these years, on a subconscious level, this man carried difficult baggage of these memories of events related to losing the most important people in his life; his grandfather and father; and related to rejection by his mother. This kind of crying, emotional release tremendously helped this athlete to get rid of this subconscious trauma. This heavy emotional baggage was terribly disturbing and robbed him of a lot of happiness all these years, without him even knowing it existed. My experience has taught me that usually these emotional releases happen with people at the time when we perform massage (including deep tissue mobilization) in the inhibitory regime. Please be aware that emotional release may not be expressed by crying. Many clients may report to you that they have trouble sleeping and experience worry, or they may start shaking during the massage. Some of them will report unusual emotional sensitivity. Please explain to your clients that all above-mentioned reactions are very positive reactions and within the next few days of going through these reactions, they will feel a great deal better. Regarding the boxer whose case I presented to you, he later reported to me that he never thought that this subconscious baggage could destroy the quality and happiness of his life so much. He told me that thanks to this innocent massage therapy on the healthy shoulder, he was able to find peace within himself.

It's reasonable to assume that the memory of the emotional experience is stored somewhere in the brain - the system that is specialized in memory handling and remained inaccessible, as many other memories a human being experiencing during the life. But the shoulder cells hold the bookmark or a memory address of where the actual memories of the incident were stored in the brain. Thus by activating the shoulder cell you triggered the process of loading the content of that remote memory in the active memory, causing the aforementioned reaction.

As you can see from this episode, clinical psychology approach alone wouldn't be sufficient, because of the emotional memories carried by the cells of his body. Presently, I receive professional referrals from clinical psychologists.

Dear colleagues, I would like to encourage you to contact clinical psychologists in your neighborhoods and to offer them your services to incorporate massage therapy in their treatments. The Latin word "doctor" means educator. After being involved in many cases,at US it is clear to me that we should educate not only our clients about the power and importance of massage therapy, but also other health care practitioners.

Replies to This Discussion

Well body and mind are one.. And emotions and memories are stored in the body/mind..Even cultural differences effect posture and how we carry ourselves and how we feel pain.. Thats all been well established....But we all work within the parameters of our licenses. As a massage therapist I dont want to or have the skills to get into heavy duty psychotherapy with a client...I just want to make my client feel better then they did before they came into see me...And I think we are all successful at that..I know I am...Some interesting books on Pain, both emotional and physical I would suggest reading are THE CHALLENGE OF PAIN by Ronald Melzack and Patrick D. Wall... as well as PRISONERS OF PAIN by Aurther Janov. Both heavy duty books with a lot of information on the subjects of this thread. Ive been able to integrate some of the information deemed from reading those books into my fairly simple massage work to great benefit for myself and my clients.

Counselor, you've displayed in this thread the reason you are seeking entre into another field.

As Noel so eloquently pointed out, you sit in judgment of published experts in the field of psychology; you lecture a therapist who had been treating and curing pain-wracked bodies 30 years before your mommy lost her pills. You have been braying in hundreds of posts, endlessly repeating the same refrain, ignoring Boris' explanation of his position, duplicitously demanding that he renounce his opinion and declare you and raven co-kings of the hill. Now you're employing the gambit with me. There's a difference. See, I understand that you will never in a million years admit that you are on the wrong side of an issue, and I don't care. Instead of just admitting your error and moving on, you will attempt to hide within a strawman when surrounded by truth.

And you two have clearly been treed. Raven has been called dishonest for dishonestly ignoring Boris's oft-repeated explanation that he has never claimed that muscle cells contain little brains that order the big brain around; so, she says she won't play anymore. You wallow in a pigsty then leap into a haystack--but I can still hear you braying. No matter. I too enjoy word games.

Now, either go away or continue to try to convince countless authors, educators and therapists in the fields of both psychology and bodywork that you know more about everything than they do. As for me, my midterms are approaching and I need to study a half hour or so per day to maintain my 4.0 GPA. If bored, I may check back in with you in a few days.

Sincerely,

== Gary

Christopher A. Moyer said:

I understand all too well exactly where you're coming from. Trained in a field best known for an odd fellow named Sigmund,

That's impressive, Gary. You know the name of a single figure from the history of clinical psychology. That explains where you learned the word ego.

you don the mantle of scientist and lecture those with actual experience in the real world. Oh, yes, your ego is large,

Are you familiar with 'ol Siggy's concept of projection? Ah, nevermind.

and, in my judgment, unfounded on reality. Trying to explain an issue to the willfully ignorant is like groveling in the muck with a pig

Gosh, was I making a sexist remark? I apologize. Sincerely. I have been happily married for 25 years. I am 62, rather old to be entering another field. But I've been a certified personal trainer for 30 years, a published author for nearly that long, and still closely resemble the energetic, well-built competitive bodybuilder I once was long ago when the Earth was young. I immodestly proclaim myself to already be a very good massage therapist.

Seriously, Raven, I apologize for the sexist tone. To both you and Christoper, I'll try to refrain from counter-punching so quickly if y'all try to refrain from making sarcastic comments. We've all fallen of the civility trail.

I'll play nice if you will.

Ravensara Travillian said:

Why do you keep calling me "dear" and "dearie"?

Frankly, it's a bit creepy.

Ravensara Travillian said:

No, I'm proclaiming that putting those two phrases next to each other was so funny that I just had to see it again.

Gary W Addis said:

Travilian, are you proclaiming that you too failed to understand my meaning? Shall I repeat the comment in its entirety? Is your reading comprehension so poor that you need to reread a half dozen times? I assume your browser is equipped with a back bottom. I maintain an open mind, dearie, regarding my studies. I confess to quickly forming opinions of people who bray like an ass about nothing. Christopher apparently cannot refute my argument, so he gathered straw and built himself a strawman. Apparently you have decided to stable with him.

nsara Travillian said:

in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.

That was so funny that I just had to see it again.

Gary W Addis said:

Sigh. Again playing the semantics game. you call it purple, I call it lavender. Obviously to even a child, I said that I will take up the study of the Eastern modalities without forming preconceived opinion going in-- in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.

Christopher A. Moyer said:

I haven't yet been exposed to the energy modalities such as Reiki and Reflexology. Going in, I admit to skepticism--but I am open. I will non judgmentally study the energy modalities in the classroom, and hope like hell that I can be convinced..

Why would you do that nonjudgmentally? Do you mean to say you will literally not use your judgment? And if so, why would you do that?

Raven. During all this discussion ,you didn't offer no explanation, no opinion but posted that I am providing wrong information.constantly distract very important discussion.I mean you posted many many comments, including praising Christopher, and offering him to teach with you classes, but never either of you propose any opinion, including a "bookmarking" alternative definition. If you really practitioner, and loyal to our occupation, then you should answer.Maybe I'm really confusing what is honesty and what is dishonest.therefore let's put a site it for while, and I promise if you will finally answer on questions that I posted to you I will retract it.otherwise really shame on you for all this behavior. I mean ,it.shame on you. I think this is fair and honest proposal and one who is honest, will realize it , will put a site ego, pride

and will correct all at once.

Ravensara Travillian said:

This is the last time I will say this.

Until you retract your accusations of dishonesty, I will have nothing to do with you, no matter how many times you try to get me to engage with you.

Boris Prilutsky said:

please answer the questions.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Raven.Christopher's comment is below.

if I am wrong please correct me.I never comment, that phantom limb syndrome is a 'bookmarks”. In this case limb already do not exist. In my article I described a hands on mobilization of shoulder . When I talked(not in article in comment) about phantom syndrome I have stated that scientists also do not know exactly where this sensitization of pains are stored. Many different opinions on the subject. We just know that this phenomenon exists. In many cases science and especially in medical fields know much less than we are don't know. As well many phenomenons cannot be explained.

he also said: If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. “

I personally cannot recall that Christopher proposed/offered any explanation.how he can know about phantom pains?he is above this simple things .

PS. In regards of Gary W Addis I would recommend to take him very seriously because he is Smart and having analytic mind as well knowledge.

Christopher A. Moyer said: But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just
plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but
in basic ways.For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.

Ravensara Travillian said:

Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on.

Oh, dear. I'd really hate to degrade the quality of this discourse.

Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.

You mean like, "don't be an ass"? That kind of polite?

Gary W Addis said:

Ms Travillian, I go by your own words. A few weeks ago during an earlier generation of this thread you lectured me on useless details of the anatomy of the brain; you listed in detail your academic and professional accomplishments. Suitably unimpressed, I reminded all once again of your superior attitude.

Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on. Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.

Ravensara Travillian said:

Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.

What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.

No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.

"non-judgmental, open mind"--right. Excuse me while I cough up a hairball.

Gary W Addis said:

Christopher A. Moyer said:

Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer

Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.

But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.

But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.

Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.

Christopher said:

"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."

In other words, your ego is involved.

"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."

You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.

Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.

Its easy to get pissed off when talking about massage. Its such a huge freakin field...It just encompasses everything..Its kind of like talking about religion or politics...I even hesitated to join this online community because I know I can get pissed off easy...lol To be honest, I cant really hang out with other massage therapist socially...Its inevitable that I will hear someone say something that I know is not true..lol.. Boy you guys really got pissed though...lol ....Its all good..Thats just how it is....We are all reflections of this world we live in....We all want world peace but...Anyway,.Im 57 years old...Been a massage therapist for 26 years now... Trust me... Ive had to bite my lip trying not to get all pissed off at some of the things Ive read on this site..All I know is that.I cant possibly know it all..Even though I think I do? ....

Christopher You wrote:" so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that).Yes Christopher in medical and sports massage clinical experience is important, and when I'm sharing my knowledge I do present my backgrounds. Nothing wrong with this. With every videotape I do this repeatedly because this is different works, just have no other choice.please remember Massage Therapy is about results not about meta-analysis that could be useful only if one preparing some new protocol for research. The following links to videos where world gold medalist sprinter Olympian talking about how massage not only brought him back to professional sports, but also improved performances and significant. At this video clips, as well in other my works I'm not trying to show off but sharing my body of knowledge that I have acquired during my 39 years of experience. Please pay attention. A lot of useful (explaining and demonstrating hands-on )educational material are proposed at this videos.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llRzGZHpZ2ghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWLgg61xjyw&feature=fvwrelhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1DHzHSZ81c&feature=fvwrelYou wrote:” and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession.”

How am I damaging to reputation of massage professions?I'm educator, who knows this occupation and love it very much. As well I am passionately love to teach.

PS.on Apricot Wolf will have to talk separate, when I will find links to this discussions.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Christopher please. Answer.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Christopher. I never comment, that phantom limb syndrome is a 'bookmarks”. In this case limb already do not exist. In my article I described a hands on mobilization of shoulder . When I talked(not in article in comment) about phantom syndrome I have stated that scientists also do not know exactly where this sensitization of pains are stored. Many different opinions on the subject. We just know that this phenomenon exists. In many cases science and especially in medical fields know much less than we are don't know. As well many phenomenons cannot be explained.

You said: If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. “

I personally cannot recall that you proposed/offered any explanation. Please do it or refer us where in this discussion you proposed some views. Please do.

On the other part of your post I will reply later on.

Christopher A. Moyer said:

Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer

Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.

But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.

But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.

If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too.

Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession.

Now, either go away or continue to try to convince countless authors, educators and therapists in the fields of both psychology and bodywork that you know more about everything than they do.

What is it with this site and people trying to order other people to stop posting?

It's not up to you to decide whether Chris can post here.

Gary W Addis said:

Counselor, you've displayed in this thread the reason you are seeking entre into another field.

As Noel so eloquently pointed out, you sit in judgment of published experts in the field of psychology; you lecture a therapist who had been treating and curing pain-wracked bodies 30 years before your mommy lost her pills. You have been braying in hundreds of posts, endlessly repeating the same refrain, ignoring Boris' explanation of his position, duplicitously demanding that he renounce his opinion and declare you and raven co-kings of the hill. Now you're employing the gambit with me. There's a difference. See, I understand that you will never in a million years admit that you are on the wrong side of an issue, and I don't care. Instead of just admitting your error and moving on, you will attempt to hide within a strawman when surrounded by truth.

And you two have clearly been treed. Raven has been called dishonest for dishonestly ignoring Boris's oft-repeated explanation that he has never claimed that muscle cells contain little brains that order the big brain around; so, she says she won't play anymore. You wallow in a pigsty then leap into a haystack--but I can still hear you braying. No matter. I too enjoy word games.

Now, either go away or continue to try to convince countless authors, educators and therapists in the fields of both psychology and bodywork that you know more about everything than they do. As for me, my midterms are approaching and I need to study a half hour or so per day to maintain my 4.0 GPA. If bored, I may check back in with you in a few days.

Sincerely,

== Gary

Christopher A. Moyer said:

I understand all too well exactly where you're coming from. Trained in a field best known for an odd fellow named Sigmund,

That's impressive, Gary. You know the name of a single figure from the history of clinical psychology. That explains where you learned the word ego.

you don the mantle of scientist and lecture those with actual experience in the real world. Oh, yes, your ego is large,

Are you familiar with 'ol Siggy's concept of projection? Ah, nevermind.

and, in my judgment, unfounded on reality. Trying to explain an issue to the willfully ignorant is like groveling in the muck with a pig

Gosh, was I making a sexist remark? I apologize. Sincerely. I have been happily married for 25 years. I am 62, rather old to be entering another field. But I've been a certified personal trainer for 30 years, a published author for nearly that long, and still closely resemble the energetic, well-built competitive bodybuilder I once was long ago when the Earth was young. I immodestly proclaim myself to already be a very good massage therapist.

Seriously, Raven, I apologize for the sexist tone. To both you and Christoper, I'll try to refrain from counter-punching so quickly if y'all try to refrain from making sarcastic comments. We've all fallen of the civility trail.

I'll play nice if you will.

Ravensara Travillian said:

Why do you keep calling me "dear" and "dearie"?

Frankly, it's a bit creepy.

Ravensara Travillian said:

No, I'm proclaiming that putting those two phrases next to each other was so funny that I just had to see it again.

Gary W Addis said:

Travilian, are you proclaiming that you too failed to understand my meaning? Shall I repeat the comment in its entirety? Is your reading comprehension so poor that you need to reread a half dozen times? I assume your browser is equipped with a back bottom. I maintain an open mind, dearie, regarding my studies. I confess to quickly forming opinions of people who bray like an ass about nothing. Christopher apparently cannot refute my argument, so he gathered straw and built himself a strawman. Apparently you have decided to stable with him.

nsara Travillian said:

in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.

That was so funny that I just had to see it again.

Gary W Addis said:

Sigh. Again playing the semantics game. you call it purple, I call it lavender. Obviously to even a child, I said that I will take up the study of the Eastern modalities without forming preconceived opinion going in-- in other words, with a non-judgmental, open mind. Don't be such an ass.

Christopher A. Moyer said:

I haven't yet been exposed to the energy modalities such as Reiki and Reflexology. Going in, I admit to skepticism--but I am open. I will non judgmentally study the energy modalities in the classroom, and hope like hell that I can be convinced..

Why would you do that nonjudgmentally? Do you mean to say you will literally not use your judgment? And if so, why would you do that?

Raven. During all this discussion ,you didn't offer no explanation, no opinion but posted that I am providing wrong information.constantly distract very important discussion.I mean you posted many many comments, including praising Christopher, and offering him to teach with you classes, but never either of you propose any opinion, including a "bookmarking" alternative definition. If you really practitioner, and loyal to our occupation, then you should answer.Maybe I'm really confusing what is honesty and what is dishonest.therefore let's put a site it for while, and I promise if you will finally answer on questions that I posted to you I will retract it.otherwise really shame on you for all this behavior. I mean ,it.shame on you. I think this is fair and honest proposal and one who is honest, will realize it , will put a site ego, pride and will correct all at once.

All right, I will do so, and then we will see if you really mean it.

My problem with the post is where you say that "body cells carry emotional memory", that this theory is "true", and that cells "bookmark" specific memory locations in the brain.

One of the first things we learn in anatomy class is the concept of levels of organization. So when you say "cells" carry, that means that memory is inside each cell. This cannot be true, because--as we all seem to agree--cells don't have the neural machinery to carry memory.

If you had said "tissues" rather than "cells", and if you had said "feel like" or "act like" rather than "is true", we would have had no problem. But you did not make it clear that you were using a metaphor. The way you wrote it, it sounded like you said that cells literally contain memories.

This is the part at which I get accused of "mere semantics", but on the contrary, this is very important to us and to massage, if we truly want to become a healthcare profession. People trust us if we use knowledge correctly, and we lose their trust if we don't.

The state of massage education is such that many people don't get a good education in anatomy, nor in the humanities, so they often cannot tell when we are speaking metaphorically rather than literally. The same is true with our clients. Some can, and some can't, so we have to be very clear, to be inclusive of people, wherever they are. It's more responsibility than just practicing the art of massage, and maybe it's not what we want. But it is an obligation of a healthcare professional, and that is why I take it so seriously.

On the "bookmark" thing, again, if you had said clearly "this is an analogy or a model to help you understand how something works, that in reality is much more complex and dynamic", we would have had no problem. But to state it as though that is the literal truth tells any healthcare professional or client who reads this site that massage sticks to an oversimplified and outdated version of neurobiology. If they think we really believe it literally, it reduces their trust in us. We can avoid a world of problems, and keep people's trust in us, if we make it clear when we are speaking literally and when we are using models or analogies or metaphors to communicate a point.

Those are the main problems I have with the post. I also have a problem with your name-calling when you lose your temper, and your sandbagging me for answering questions that other people ask me directly. "Dishonest" and "shame on you" is not appropriate professional dialogue, and correcting or refining facts is not an attack on you personally that you have to defend yourself against.

I have answered your questions; will you now retract your accusations of dishonesty?

Boris Prilutsky said:

Raven. During all this discussion ,you didn't offer no explanation, no opinion but posted that I am providing wrong information.constantly distract very important discussion.I mean you posted many many comments, including praising Christopher, and offering him to teach with you classes, but never either of you propose any opinion, including a "bookmarking" alternative definition. If you really practitioner, and loyal to our occupation, then you should answer.Maybe I'm really confusing what is honesty and what is dishonest.therefore let's put a site it for while, and I promise if you will finally answer on questions that I posted to you I will retract it.otherwise really shame on you for all this behavior. I mean ,it.shame on you. I think this is fair and honest proposal and one who is honest, will realize it , will put a site ego, pride

and will correct all at once.

Ravensara Travillian said:

This is the last time I will say this.

Until you retract your accusations of dishonesty, I will have nothing to do with you, no matter how many times you try to get me to engage with you.

Boris Prilutsky said:

please answer the questions.

Boris Prilutsky said:

Raven.Christopher's comment is below.

if I am wrong please correct me.I never comment, that phantom limb syndrome is a 'bookmarks”. In this case limb already do not exist. In my article I described a hands on mobilization of shoulder . When I talked(not in article in comment) about phantom syndrome I have stated that scientists also do not know exactly where this sensitization of pains are stored. Many different opinions on the subject. We just know that this phenomenon exists. In many cases science and especially in medical fields know much less than we are don't know. As well many phenomenons cannot be explained.

he also said: If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. “

I personally cannot recall that Christopher proposed/offered any explanation.how he can know about phantom pains?he is above this simple things .

PS. In regards of Gary W Addis I would recommend to take him very seriously because he is Smart and having analytic mind as well knowledge.

Christopher A. Moyer said: But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just
plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but
in basic ways.For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.

Ravensara Travillian said:

Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on.

Oh, dear. I'd really hate to degrade the quality of this discourse.

Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.

You mean like, "don't be an ass"? That kind of polite?

Gary W Addis said:

Ms Travillian, I go by your own words. A few weeks ago during an earlier generation of this thread you lectured me on useless details of the anatomy of the brain; you listed in detail your academic and professional accomplishments. Suitably unimpressed, I reminded all once again of your superior attitude.

Now, if you wish to get down and dirty, dear, let's get it on. Or, we can continue to politely disagree. Your choice.

Ravensara Travillian said:

Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties.

What on earth are you talking about? You don't know the first thing about my work, and you just make condescending s*** up about what I do.

No wonder that--despite your "I'm just an impartial student, got no dog on this fight" schtick--you won't stand up for what's right when Boris resorts to personal insults.

"non-judgmental, open mind"--right. Excuse me while I cough up a hairball.

Gary W Addis said:

Christopher A. Moyer said:

Clearly, Boris is not referring to computer code written on a subatomic cellular computer

Gary, it is not at all clear what Boris is referring to about 75% of the time. Part of this, as you point out, is probably because English is not his first language. And I'd like to point out that none of us, as best I can recall, has ever criticized him for that.

But even apart from the language barrier, some of what Boris attempts to communicate doesn't come across clearly because he doesn't know what he's talking about. I won't for a second challenge his direct experiences in the treatment room - he's got tons of it (as he has reminded us so many times) and as you and others have pointed out, I have none.

But many of the inferences he makes from that experience are just plain, obviously wrong. And I don't mean wrong in an esoteric way, but in basic ways. For example, indicating that limbs store pain or emotion like a bookmark is obviously wrong, as can be shown by phantom limb syndrome, in which there is no 'bookmark.' There are many other examples just like this, including ones Raven and I have pointed out, all of which get totally ignored.

Christopher, that there is no limb doesn't make an amputee's pain any less real. I've had the experience of scratching the itch on the sole of an uncle's missing limb--and though his eyes were closed, he responded to the touch! I have no explanation, but I didn't need one; my touch eased an annoying itch, real or imagined, on a fine old gentleman. I suggest you read "The Body Remembers" in the september/october 2010 issue of Massage & Bodywork. As books and articles and countless therapists' personal accounts attest, by whatever label you wish to use, by whatever methodology, the body itself does in fact remember past hurts, especially when those injuries coincided with lasting psychological scarring.

Christopher said:

"If Boris (and some other folks on this site) had a little bit more sense about this, not to mention courtesy, he could respond to the things we have said with something like 'oh yes, I think I see your point - but I'm describing how it seems to me. Perhaps you could try to tell us why it seems that way even if the underlying cause is known to be different' or something like that. And then if wanted to disagree with us, that'd be fine too."

In other words, your ego is involved.

"Instead, the response we get - everytime, so far - is to bring up his own misunderstandings from long ago threads (Apricot the Wolf), his 39 years clinical experience (how many times must we be hit over the head with that), absolutely baseless criticisms of our work (which it is obvious he is not even familiar with) or of us as individuals (whom he has never met and does not know), and total ignorance of the facts that we take care to establish with reasoning and evidence. It's completely outrageous, and if I *were* an massage therapist, I'd see it as damaging to the reputation of my profession."

You ignore time and again the obvious. Boris himself has explained repeatedly that he is NOT referring to neurological memory in the cells, merely that, by whatever methodology, the effect is that manipulation of the site of an old injury at time of psychological trauma brings the memory to consciousness, and with it, oftentimes a recurrence of the pain of the original injury. Boris will correct me if I misunderstand. Respected experts in the field of massage therapy and bodywork, and experts in related fields such as physical therapy confirm that this phenomena is not hallucinatory. Tens of millions of people around the globe praise acupuncture and ayurvedic medicine though there is no scientific basis for either that I'm aware of. The people who benefit from these exotic treatments don't care a whit that you cannot explain them in scientific terms. It astounds me that you, a psychologist, so eagerly deny the existence of secrets still hidden from human understanding within the mind. Psychology, after all, relies more on the individual skill of the individual psychologist than it does on an understanding of the anatomy inside the skull. Being able to diagram and label every wee feature of the brain gives Raven bragging rights at university cocktail parties. That's information that I as a therapist don't need to know; it is enough that I know the origins and insertions of skeletal muscle and the routes of the nerves and blood vessels that serve them. I do not need to know the mechanism by which a muscle remembers an old injury; It is important that I learn to recognize the event, and know how best to handle the situation when it occurs. In that, it is obvious that Boris will be a better instructor than you the psychologist, Vlad the Denier or Ravensara the cold Clinician.

Early man didn't need to have a scientific explanation of gravity; his only concerns was that it worked.

Just a comment on this thread that you guys are arguing about. Body/mind are one. Intense emotional trauma is stored in our body/mind...One example is that fear is stored in the shoulders...If you were to walk down a hall way and all of a sudden I jumped out of a room and screamed, you would be startled or scared for a brief moment until you realized that it was me just playing a joke on you..But durring that brief scare your shoulders would draw up toward your ears..Its a neurological reflex. You cant help it...It just happens.. So immagin a young child that lives in an abusive household...Say the dad is an alchohalic and beats up the mother every weekend that he is drunk...So every time the child sees and hears the abuse his shoulders raise up to his neck ...The child is stuck in this family and every time he sees his dad, his shoulders raise up in fear.he cant escape the situation..So thirty years later I have a male client that comes in complaining of shoulder and neck pain..I look at him and see that his shoulders are raised up to his ears..Thats fear locked into his shoulders...He can go to all the rolfers and body workers he wants..We all think we can correct his shoulder problem..We may temporarilly, however in short time his condition of raised shoulders and pain will return.. Unless he gets appropriate psychotherapy to get that fear out of his body, his constant shoulder pain will return..Or perhaps once his shoulders are worked on he begins feeling uncomfortable and cancels his massage session...It just depends how you say it...That fear is locked into his cells,,his entire body/mind. Many years ago I had a very client like that...he had been through all kinds of chiropractic and body work people to know relief..I refered him to a PHD. Psychologist I knew..I never followed up on it.But I think thats what Boris is talking about..The body remembers severe trauma...Im sure I could of explained this in a better way....however its clear the body remembers...A caved in chest implicates poor self esteem. A person who has been constantly put down during child hood as being bad or no good. So you can say that trauma is stored in the muscles..the muscles have memory ...Its locked in his cells.....Its perspective..How you look at it...But it is real. In the book PRISONERS OF PAIN by Aurther Janov MD. He has actual photographs of a women that relived her sever abuse as a child where the burses of her physical abuse actually re emerged on her legs durring a psychotherapy session..That trauma was locked into her cells. Anyway, I think thats along the lines of what Boris is talking about... But Im not arguing with anybody in here...lol

I'm going to start a new discussion on this, Gordon, because I think there's some important ideas there. But I've been burnt enough on this thread by answering questions that people have posed and then Boris loses it and starts with the accusations of dishonesty, so I'm going to take it off his thread and start a new one in order to prevent that from happening again.

Don't worry; we won't be arguing. I'll be presenting some facts for your consideration, and you can do as you please with them. If you don't agree, then you can just let it go--I won't be pursuing it anymore today.

Edited to add: just got massively busy; will get back to this later in a new thread.

Just a comment on this thread that you guys are arguing about. Body/mind are one. Intense emotional trauma is stored in our body/mind...One example is that fear is stored in the shoulders...If you were to walk down a hall way and all of a sudden I jumped out of a room and screamed, you would be startled or scared for a brief moment until you realized that it was me just playing a joke on you..But durring that brief scare your shoulders would draw up toward your ears..Its a neurological reflex. You cant help it...It just happens.. So immagin a young child that lives in an abusive household...Say the dad is an alchohalic and beats up the mother every weekend that he is drunk...So every time the child sees and hears the abuse his shoulders raise up to his neck ...The child is stuck in this family and every time he sees his dad, his shoulders raise up in fear.he cant escape the situation..So thirty years later I have a male client that comes in complaining of shoulder and neck pain..I look at him and see that his shoulders are raised up to his ears..Thats fear locked into his shoulders...He can go to all the rolfers and body workers he wants..We all think we can correct his shoulder problem..We may temporarilly, however in short time his condition of raised shoulders and pain will return.. Unless he gets appropriate psychotherapy to get that fear out of his body, his constant shoulder pain will return..Or perhaps once his shoulders are worked on he begins feeling uncomfortable and cancels his massage session...It just depends how you say it...That fear is locked into his cells,,his entire body/mind. Many years ago I had a very client like that...he had been through all kinds of chiropractic and body work people to know relief..I refered him to a PHD. Psychologist I knew..I never followed up on it.But I think thats what Boris is talking about..The body remembers severe trauma...Im sure I could of explained this in a better way....however its clear the body remembers...A caved in chest implicates poor self esteem. A person who has been constantly put down during child hood as being bad or no good. So you can say that trauma is stored in the muscles..the muscles have memory ...Its locked in his cells.....Its perspective..How you look at it...But it is real. In the book PRISONERS OF PAIN by Aurther Janov MD. He has actual photographs of a women that relived her sever abuse as a child where the burses of her physical abuse actually re emerged on her legs durring a psychotherapy session..That trauma was locked into her cells. Anyway, I think thats along the lines of what Boris is talking about... But Im not arguing with anybody in here...lol