Frustrated by endless delays to its Boeing 787 delivery schedule, Qatar Airways is understood to have initiated discussions with Airbus about a major A330 deal.

Qatar Airways has 30 787s on order, and had been expecting to introduce its first five this year, with deliveries slated to continue through 2013 and 2014. But with its 787 deliveries in limbo and Qatar facing a potential capacity shortage, Flightglobal has learnt that talks have begun with Airbus for up to 24 A330s. The airline is seeking deliveries from mid-2013.

Not likely. They've already sold 60 or so this year and there is a substantial backlog. But some older orders are probably more 'fluid' than others (there are lots of A330Fs ordered but not placed, for example, and who knows what'll happen to quite a few A330s on order for various Chinese airlines) so slots in 2013 may not be so hard to create. And if Airbus ever had an incentive to free up slots, this is it!

I think they are working to have a plan B for the more than possibles delays on A350 and more B787. And at the same time sending a message to Boeing about the B787 delays, lately they are doing a lot of noise about it and specially using this magazine, it looks like the official magazine of Qatar Airways... heheeheh

As I understand it, the issue with the 787 is the integration of the OnAir Internet system with the THALES IFE system. QR is a GEnx customer, so there may be issues with the fan shaft issue. Both of those are outside of Boeing's control, however, so AAB should be threatening OnAir and THALES with a Panasonic order or GE with a Trent order.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):And if Airbus ever had an incentive to free up slots, this is it!

It is good PR, but only a fraction of a year's production.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 4):I for my part think that Boeing will smooth this out and Qatar will take the frames.

I think QR will take the 787 frames, but they want to expand faster than Boeing could accommodate.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9): if he does order more A330s and it backfires on him down the road, it could be costly.

How would it be costly? With the new-DOH international airport, QR will finally have room for fast expansion. If Airbus is able to create slot availability, then why shouldn't QR expand with a type they are already familiar with? Most of QR's routes do not require more range than the A333 provides. Save the 787s for Australia, the Americas, and a few other routes.

Potential capacity shortage? Like seriously?
What are they going to do in the low travel season. Sale sale sale....global sale every month?

Flew BKK-DOH-CPH and CDG-DOH-BKK back in MAY, not even half full on any of the flights. DOH-CPH was 1/4 full, the 330-200 was so empty. CDG-DOH on A340-600 was 1/3.
Flew BKK-DOH-LHR v.v last month...same case on all 4 flights.

With the never ending Euro crisis and global recession, Airlines should be proud to if they can just fill the A330s, not to mention the whale jet A380!!!

Quoting nethkt (Reply 13):Flew BKK-DOH-CPH and CDG-DOH-BKK back in MAY, not even half full on any of the flights. DOH-CPH was 1/4 full, the 330-200 was so empty. CDG-DOH on A340-600 was 1/3.
Flew BKK-DOH-LHR v.v last month...same case on all 4 flights.

How much of it is due to people wanting to avoid the airport there when they have better alternative?
I think the new airport will allow QR to finally compete for customer on a level playing field, which they can't today.

I bet there are a few top level folks at Boeing telling AAB in their heads to "Go on, do it, plenty other operators would love to get their ships earlier than expected, and we'll be rid of your childish outbursts too."

Quoting garpd (Reply 24):I bet there are a few top level folks at Boeing telling AAB in their heads to "Go on, do it, plenty other operators would love to get their ships earlier than expected, and we'll be rid of your childish outbursts too."

I like to believe Boeing (and Airbus) are better than that. This is hardly the first time AAB has theatened to cancel a Boeing order in favor of Airbus (or an Airbus order in favor of Boeing). Just seems to be how the man does business, but it's a lucrative business for both OEMs.

Anyway, the issue is with GE engines and QR has a separate contract with GE for those engines. There is really nothing Boeing can do about it, since engines are "customer furnished equipment" just as seats, galleys, IFE and other items are.

GE wins either way, since QR's current A330 fleet is powered by GE CF6 engines and I'd be surprised to see them jumping to the Trent 700.

That's exactly what he's probably doing. "Pay up or you lose our business." At this point, QR would be idiotic to walk away from the 787. They're going to get the airframes for next to free. It's the maintenance that will make Boeing the money.

Airbus is also going to offer their A330-300R which will have 787-like performance, albeit at a higher CASM. Whether that option is available to QR I don't know.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):I don't expect QR to issue a replacement order, since if they cancel the 787 contract, they're going to leave a lot of money on the table in lost deposits and progress payments.

I would imagine that at this level of delay, all of those payments and deposits would be forfeit back to QR. I can't imagine any airline would sign a contract that allows the OEM to delay delivery indefinitely without a clause allowing them to cancel the order completely and get all monies paid back.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):I can't imagine any airline would sign a contract that allows the OEM to delay delivery indefinitely without a clause allowing them to cancel the order completely and get all monies paid back.

Well Boeing hasn't delayed delivery indefinitely and QR won't take the planes due to the GEnx mid-fan issue and QR has a separate contract with GE for those engines.

So far, only Qantas have stated their contract allowed them to cancel without penalty. AI certainly doesn't have that option, hence all the drama with their deliveries.

And AAB has certainly threatened to cancel the order before (as well as threatening to cancel Airbus orders and go Boeing), yet he's not done so. Ergo, I don't believe he has that clause (or he negotiated it away).

Lightsaber, I'm aware of what QR has hanging from its 330s. I was speculating that it wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility that AAB would teach GE a lesson by ordering future A330s with RR.

It's amazing also that, as AAB releases this 'news' to the press in conjunction with the Dreamliner delays, only on a.net could it be spun into meaning it's a speculative move to protect against A350 delays.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):At this point, BOEING has not given a delivery date and as the OEM, they are responsible for that.

I expect Boeing has indeed given them a delivery date, QR just doesn't want to take delivery until they have GEnx engines attached that are not susceptible to the fan shaft issue. And that has to come from GE Aviation.

When Airbus started slowing deliveries for A380-800s with Trent 900 due to Rolls having to stop production to apply the fix for the oil pipe issue, I don't recall the forum blaming Airbus for said delays (which is saying something in and of itself, frankly). Nor do I recall Airbus and Boeing being blamed for delays due to waiting for replacement seats for Koito, even though some planes were delayed months.

Not sure what Boeing could offer them as compensation, besides less money asked for the 787s. QR wants immediate growth, and cheaper 787s won't help in any way, hence the Airbuses. B could go for some 777s, but is QR interested in that big jump up in capacity?

Is there really space at DOH on tarmacs and runways to accomodate 24 more A330s? I know people are betting on the new aiport, but that is already ten years delayed and the opening that should happen in December this year is being pushed back as well to sometime next year (with no certainty that that date will be kept).

As for empty planes: I've had my shares of empty planes as well especially on CDG-DOH, but most other flights I took where very or completely full (LHR, FRA, MUC, GVA, DXB, BEY)

It is unlikely that Airbus can accommodate a new set of deliveries for wide-bodies within 9 months. Furthermore, the customers like QR have highly customized interiors that take more than a year to design, test and certify (even that's sporty).

My suspicion is that QR is using these "negotiations" with Airbus to drive the price down on their 787 backlog. QR would have probably bought A330s anyway to cover gaps in their rapid expansion, but true to form... Qatari bargaining is always an unpredictable game. They'll probably get the A330s for next to nothing as compensation for the defective A380s sitting on the Toulouse flightline awaiting delivery. No incident goes unexploited for maximum discounts, but playing Airbus and Boeing against each other in the process is completely ruthless... Al Baker is masterful businessman.

Airbus said they were looking to cut A330 production target soon, if the dispute about emissions between Europe and China was not resolved. Hence these production slots could be available for QR and others who want A330s already next year.

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 37):It is unlikely that Airbus can accommodate a new set of deliveries for wide-bodies within 9 months. Furthermore, the customers like QR have highly customized interiors that take more than a year to design, test and certify (even that's sporty).

Except that they've already got some A330s so the design work will of already been done.

I've got a completly diferant theory in that QR has a cash problem, low sales are hinted at by other posters higher up, and AAB is frantically picking fights with suppliers so that they can delay deliveries - their A380 order has been delayed remember because of the wing issue whilst their biggest rival locally (EK) is taking 1 or 2 of the "patched up" A380s a month for the foreseable future.

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 37):It is unlikely that Airbus can accommodate a new set of deliveries for wide-bodies within 9 months. Furthermore, the customers like QR have highly customized interiors that take more than a year to design, test and certify (even that's sporty).

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 39):I've got a completly diferant theory in that QR has a cash problem, low sales are hinted at by other posters higher up, and AAB is frantically picking fights with suppliers so that they can delay deliveries

No, this is quite far wide of the mark. Airlines don't pay for their new planes in cash they either lease them from a third party, which in all likelihood QR will do, or will finance them. And any cash problem are easily solved by interest free loans from the Qatari government.

QR desperately need those aircraft. It frankly saddens me to see how little trust people on this forum have when AAB or QR make a statement. It almost seems as though everyone believes that if they come out and say anything, that what they're trying to do is play a game with Boeing, or Airbus, or they're lying etc. How about no they're just frankly speaking the truth about whats going on. Like when they've clearly said that no we're not joining oneworld.

Back when AAB made a few comments about Airbus people got overexcited, and started accusing him of this or that. Frankly speaking I agree with him that if he is going to spend millions of dollars he should get a working aircraft not one that needs to be patched up later on. Its just that most other airlines take BS from the manufacturers, or they keep quiet about their discontent, but he comes out and says what he thinks. If anything I would think that people on this website would be happy with the fact that there is a man willing to speak up. Perhaps he shouldn't always be as public as he is, but to think that he is lying or that he is simply bluffing people doesn't necessarily add up.

If he says he's looking at 330s to stem the problems with the Boeing's, then in all likelihood he is. And this should be a wakeup call for Boeing to get moving on the QR deliveries. And yes if they don't deliver and it is Boeing's fault then yes QR do deserve compensation, its whats fair. This is how business works, you can't pick or choose sides and decide that the other party is wrong.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 42):The -200s maybe, but the last batch of the -300s were only delivered in 2008.

Those are still pretty new. Anyway, regarding the topic we will have to wait and see how AAB will play his cards in this "game". I guess it is a matter of taking all options into account before he makes the next strategic decision.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):I like the way people talk of low loads as if it was important. Qatar Airways is a political vanity project, like the World Cup. Profits are an ideal, not a must have.....

I would disagree, QR are very strict on costs and quality. They are not running an airline just for fun or to serve the country like Saudia or Gulf Air or Oman Air. They are running a business transporting pax all over the world.

Unfortunately the majority of people on this forum are from the West and have a very negative opinion about the Middle East and its airlines. Things are not so black and white, and most of the people on this forum have not even been to the Middle East. This is like all those who believe that QR must have paid to have won the skytrax award without ever having flown on QR in their life.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 43):If he says he's looking at 330s to stem the problems with the Boeing's, then in all likelihood he is. And this should be a wakeup call for Boeing to get moving on the QR deliveries.

Except Boeing does own GE Aviation and doesn't manufacture GEnx engines, so what, exactly, is Boeing supposed to do to secure revised GEnx engines?

I would think that AAB understands where his engines come from, since he has signed plenty of purchase agreements for them with GE Aviation over the years. I would also think he understand that he was the authority who sent his 787-8 to am air show and opened it up to the press to run around in and scuff it up.

He's blaming Boeing for things that are either not under Boeing's control or are a direct result of his own decision making. And I find that a bit .

Quoting Stitch (Reply 49):I would think that AAB understands where his engines come from

I completely agree with you, a man can't build an airline to the status that QR know enjoys if he didn't understand this. Thats why in all likelihood Boeing may have messed up somewhere. You see you've made the assumption that the delay is due to GE and so has everyone else on this forum. Everyone has just somehow come up with the assumption that GE is to blame, without even knowing the facts. So they then see AAB blaming Boeing and they conclude is that AAB is mad or stupid or something. But where did they get the assumption that the delays are because of GE? If AAB is blaming Boeing there might well be something that Boeing did wrong that AAB has a right to blame them for. People around here are quick to jump to conclusions.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 50):You see you've made the assumption that the delay is due to GE and so has everyone else on this forum...But where did they get the assumption that the delays are because of GE?

From Akbar Al Baker himself:

Quoting Akbar Al Baker:"The 787 has an engine with new technology. However, there has been a material defect in the engine which now needs replacement and inspection," Akbar Al-Baker said after a speech in the Qatari capital Doha.

"We have informed Boeing that we will not take delivery until the 787s have the new modified shaft," said Baker...

Quoting Blueshamu330s (Reply 32):It's amazing also that, as AAB releases this 'news' to the press in conjunction with the Dreamliner delays, only on a.net could it be spun into meaning it's a speculative move to protect against A350 delays.

Saj Ahmad is tweeting that the EIS of the A350-900 is now projected to slip into the first half of 2015 and that EK, QR and EY are all positioning themselves for this delay... (It should be noted that for almost a year now, Bernstein Research has been of the opinion that EIS would slip into the second half of 2015.)

Gulp..I stand corrected, from what I heard the issue was due to THALES. I never took AAB as a man that wouldn't understand what was going on. Maybe I need to look at my assumptions a little closer. If AAB really is the kind of person who would sling mud at a company when it really isn't their fault then I'd have to say that the criticism on this board is justified.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 52):Gulp..I stand corrected, from what I heard the issue was due to THALES.

I believe part of the issue is also with the THALES IFE - specifically how the OnAir Internet service connects to it. Akbar Al Baker has also stated that he felt the interior was not up to standard - though I believe this was on the plane he sent to the air show.

All that being said, now we're hearing rumors that QR will take contractual delivery (hand over the final monies owed and take title to become the registered owner), yet then let the plane sit some two weeks until the delivery ceremony where the plane flies off.

This could be a sign that the plane is getting new GE engines or that the IFE will be fixed by then or the interior refurbished or any two or three. It's also possible that if QR wishes to send an executive team to personally pick up the plane, that two weeks is the earliest they can schedule themselves to be there.

As a follow-up, Akbar Al Baker is now quoted in The Doha Press as noting that they are preparing to take delivery of their first 787-8, which will then be flown to Boeing's facility in CHS to have the IFE installed:

Quoting Akbar al-Baker:“We have a team that is at the moment in the process of customer walk around, prior to delivery. The first arrival of the aircraft will be one month after the title transfer because our 787 will be the first one installed with connectivity. It will fly to Charleston - a Boeing facility, from Everett, where it will get connectivity installed within 30 days, get certified and become ready for delivery,” (Akbar al-Baker) said.

As IFE is Customer Furnished Equipment, it sounds logical to me for QR to take delivery of the plane as-is, and then fly it out to a facility (in this case, CHS) to handle the IFE installation. I believe it's been said that British Airways takes delivery of their planes with only the Economy Cabin installed and then installs the premium cabins in Wales.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 57):Boeing must be getting annoyed with all these airline execs. GEnx is hardly Boeing fault and neither is their IFE system they picked.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 58):But, if you've just paid something like $150milion for a new plane, you'd expect it to be 100% when it's delivered, no?

Who is responsible for the installation and integration of the IFE and OnAir? Presumably, both these systems have been certified by Boeing on the 787?

The customers make their own contracts with engine manufacturers, don't they? If so, providing Boeing's installation of the engine concerned is correct, it is not their responsibility if there is a defect in the engine. I would think that a defect in something the customer bought from another supplier and asked Boeing to install is not grounds to refuse to take delivery. Where this is concerned, it is not Boeing causing QR a problem. It is GE causing QR a problem. To criticise Boeing for this is unjustified. More appropriate would be for QR to sympathise with Boeing over the unforeseen problems (over which neither Boeing nor QR had any control) arising from an engine defect.

Regarding IFE, if the customer chose a system which they do not find satisfactory, again that's their problem, not Boeing's.

By the way, what statements has AAB been making about GE supplying engines with a defect?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 60):Absolutely. However, the issue seems to be the integration between the IFE and OnAir. If Boeing is doing the installation and integration work, then QR would have a fair point. No?

Well evidently the installation has not yet started (the plane needs to be flown to CHS to have it installed), so it might be THALES and OnAir are still working out how to get their system to work together before Boeing can install it.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 60):Absolutely. However, the issue seems to be the integration between the IFE and OnAir. If Boeing is doing the installation and integration work, then QR would have a fair point. No?