In Gundam Wing, the five Gundams were built with a rare and expensive metal called Gundanium Alloy, which allowed them to mow down wave upon wave of mass-produced Leos alone. But as soon as OZ forced the five Gundam scientists to build for them the Mercurius and Vayeate and used their schematics to mass-produce Virgos, they used that Gundanium Alloy to build them.

It's just that I have a problem with a rare and expensive metal being used for mass-production. There was practically almost no way OZ would mass-produce Virgos without spreading that Gundanium too thinly. So how can that be possible?

It's just that I have a problem with a rare and expensive metal being used for mass-production. There was practically almost no way OZ would mass-produce Virgos without spreading that Gundanium too thinly. So how can that be possible?

As I understand it, the material gundarium in the After Colony era was only "rare" because the processes involved in its creation are complicated and can only be carried out in zero gravity. It's those special manufacturing requirements for the material that make it so expensive. Overcoming those production bottlenecks is a tall order, but not impossibly so given that both the Mobile Doll system and OZ-02MD Virgo were the pet projects of Tubarov Bilmon, made possible by the backing of Duke Dermail Catalonia and the incredible wealth and influence wielded by the Romefeller Foundation's members. I've not found any definition of the material that indicates that it's made with rare or expensive ingredients, per se... not like what I've found in the past for [luna titanium/gundarium], which supposedly includes precious metals, expensive rare earths, and other scarce or dangerous elements in addition to titanium carbide.

Given that the Romefeller Foundation's leadership saw the Mobile Doll system as their ticket to uncontested control of the Earth Sphere, and that they were already so wealthy that they were able to bankroll OZ and pull the strings of most every nation on Earth, I doubt anyone quibbled about the cost. I mean, if you have every reasonable expectation you'll conquer the world in the very near future are you really going to get sticker shock when you can just write yourself one hell of a blank check for reimbursement once you're the autocratic master of mankind?

It's just that I have a problem with a rare and expensive metal being used for mass-production. There was practically almost no way OZ would mass-produce Virgos without spreading that Gundanium too thinly. So how can that be possible?

As I understand it, the material gundarium in the After Colony era was only "rare" because the processes involved in its creation are complicated and can only be carried out in zero gravity. It's those special manufacturing requirements for the material that make it so expensive. Overcoming those production bottlenecks is a tall order, but not impossibly so given that both the Mobile Doll system and OZ-02MD Virgo were the pet projects of Tubarov Bilmon, made possible by the backing of Duke Dermail Catalonia and the incredible wealth and influence wielded by the Romefeller Foundation's members. I've not found any definition of the material that indicates that it's made with rare or expensive ingredients, per se... not like what I've found in the past for [luna titanium/gundarium], which supposedly includes precious metals, expensive rare earths, and other scarce or dangerous elements in addition to titanium carbide.

Given that the Romefeller Foundation's leadership saw the Mobile Doll system as their ticket to uncontested control of the Earth Sphere, and that they were already so wealthy that they were able to bankroll OZ and pull the strings of most every nation on Earth, I doubt anyone quibbled about the cost. I mean, if you have every reasonable expectation you'll conquer the world in the very near future are you really going to get sticker shock when you can just write yourself one hell of a blank check for reimbursement once you're the autocratic master of mankind?

Actually, I think I found the answer.

It's because the Mercurius and Vayeate were Super Prototypes of the Virgos, and usually in a mecha anime series, prototypes are more powerful than the mass-production models.

technically OZ-02MD Virgo was an combination of the two specialized OZ-13MSX units as an simplified production unit. Vayeate tested the beam cannon while Mercurius tested the Planet Defensors. the OS-13MSX being an upgraded version of the OX-00MS body frame also used for the OZ-13MS Gundam Epyon.

I think the non-technical factors are more important to consider here.

From what we see over the course of the franchise, Romefeller basically has the run of the world MS market, since the only non-standard MS we ever see are the Maganacs and Oliphants (the latter of which are just kind of thrown together to serve as defenders). As such, the main reason MS technology stayed stagnant for about 15 years is because there was no great need for it to advance. Unlike most other Gundam shows, Wing doesn't have any full-scale wars to drive technology, and Romefeller would try to maximize profits by getting as much out of existing models as possible. Introducing a new model that would render their current product line obsolete would be business suicide. Besides that, we have the fact that the Gundams themselves threw a gigantic monkey wrench into Romefeller's plans by introducing a much higher level of technical development into the situation. As such, the Virgos had to have Gundanium armor in order to keep up, and to appeal to all the people who would want their own MS that could go toe-to-toe with Gundam-level machines. Even so, Romefeller was clearly thinking with their wallets first, since the Serpent (originally intended to be the successor to the Leo) is made with Neo-Titanium armor, which isn't as strong as Gundanium but is also less expensive to create.

So to put it simply, I think OZ always COULD make Gundanium MS, it's just that until the Gundams appeared and forced their hands, they didn't NEED to.

It's because the Mercurius and Vayeate were Super Prototypes of the Virgos, and usually in a mecha anime series, prototypes are more powerful than the mass-production models.

Huh? Pardon me, but what's the purpose of this thread again? You asked about how OZ can mass produce the supposed to be expensive Gundanium, but then you claim you found the answer because Mercurius and Vayeate are Super Prototype and thus should be stronger.

It's because the Mercurius and Vayeate were Super Prototypes of the Virgos, and usually in a mecha anime series, prototypes are more powerful than the mass-production models.

Huh? Pardon me, but what's the purpose of this thread again? You asked about how OZ can mass produce the supposed to be expensive Gundanium, but then you claim you found the answer because Mercurius and Vayeate are Super Prototype and thus should be stronger.

They are just irrelevant topics altogether.

I'm sorry if my answer doesn't make any sense.

Besides, what I said is true. It isn't that the Virgos were built out of Gundanium alloy. It's just that to make them more feasible for mass production, both the Mercurius and Vayeate's main features had to be dramatically reduced and streamlined so that they could both be incorporated in the same mobile doll.

EDIT: Actually, no correct that. When the Gundam scientists were captured by OZ and forced to build the Mercurius and Vayeate, it was possible that their knowledge of building Gundanium alloy was also brought with them. That meant that with the schematics to Gundanium taken away from the scientists, OZ would have produced its own Gundanium alloy to mass-produce Virgos.

Which is probably why the Gundam pilots needed the ZERO system from Wing Zero. In order to fight AI-controlled mobile dolls made out of Gundanium alloy, the pilots needed a system of their very own to counteract them. And at the time, they had Wing Zero and its ZERO system.

I don't think that alone explains it. Epyon is made from Gundanium alloy, and was produced and manufactured entirely separately from Mercurius/Vayeate and the Virgo. Additionally, according to GotL, the transport aircraft Heero destroyed early in Wing(after he repaired Wing by cannibalizing parts from Deathscythe) IIRC was transporting Gundanium alloy. That and the fact OZ knew what Gundanium was from the beginning of the series, to me, indicates that they already knew how to manufacture the stuff.

"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."

Which is probably why the Gundam pilots needed the ZERO system from Wing Zero. In order to fight AI-controlled mobile dolls made out of Gundanium alloy, the pilots needed a system of their very own to counteract them. And at the time, they had Wing Zero and its ZERO system.

The ZERO System existed (at least conceptually) for fifteen years before Moble Dolls did and it was actually implemented as a real thing before the Virgo hit mass production. That it proved extremely helpful in countering Mobile Dolls in a tactical sense can't be denied but it certainly wasn't necessary to counter the Virgo on an individual basis.

The lazy and inconsistency in both animation and combat in Wing doesn't help things either, that the Gundams have invincible armor until the plot demands they get damaged while the Virgo can get shot down by a beam rifle shot when its defensors are not deployed even though they should be just as durable as the Gundams...

You'll have to keep in mind that expensive technology doesn't stay expensive forever. The price comes from availability of materials and manufacturing cost. OZ specifically allied with the space colonies so it could take advantage of their technological resources and the fact that Gundanium could only be produced in micro-gravity. Once the takeover was done, I suppose OZ set up the infrastructure to manufacture Gundanium en masse.

The show makes it obvious that OZ is invading the colonies to manufacture weapons, but I guess it should have been more explicit that it was for mass-producing Gundanium, too.

Like AmuroNT1 said before, there just wasn't a need to do this before.

The thing that weirds me out about Virgos is that the planet defensors make their armor material completely redundant. As far as I can tell, planet defensors provide better protection and are more cost effective than Gundanium armor, so having both is not necessary, especially on a mass-produced and unmanned craft. Hell, they could have just made the Virgos out of aluminum foil to save on cost, and the beam cannon/defensor combo wouldn't have seen any difference.

And regarding the effectiveness of Gundanium, I'm pretty sure it has to be of sufficient quality and thickness to have the same defensive quality as seen in the Gundams. Related to my earlier point, Virgos probably don't have Gundanium armor for the defensive quality. It's not necessary due to the planet defensors. They probably have Gundanium, because it is supposed to very light weight compared to titanium alloy. That alone would make the Virgo's performance very excellent because of mobility/speed increase.

I tried to compare MS weight from my Wing tech manual, but these figures make no damn sense. XD

"Red particles are bad, they mutate you into... dead? But green/blue particles are good, apparently, for reasons and for purposes yet to be determined. Isn't science sometimes nicely color-coded?"
-AntaresGW: The Sword . Sera's Art . Gameplay . The Lost Citadel

Which is probably why the Gundam pilots needed the ZERO system from Wing Zero. In order to fight AI-controlled mobile dolls made out of Gundanium alloy, the pilots needed a system of their very own to counteract them. And at the time, they had Wing Zero and its ZERO system.

The ZERO System existed (at least conceptually) for fifteen years before Moble Dolls did and it was actually implemented as a real thing before the Virgo hit mass production. That it proved extremely helpful in countering Mobile Dolls in a tactical sense can't be denied but it certainly wasn't necessary to counter the Virgo on an individual basis.

There's also the fact that...

A.) Quatre only used the ZERO System once in Sandrock (at Heero's insistence), then removed it after the battle was over, even saying that he didn't need it.

B.) Heero and Wing Gundam Zero never participated in any of the battles involving the Virgo II, flying off to fight Zechs and Epyon.

C.) The ZERO System was only really needed for that one battle because the mobile doll system of the Virgo II's in that particular battle was an improved version made by Zechs that combined elements of the traditional mobile doll system with elements from the Epyon System. It basically allowed a controller to instantaneously change the programming and how the Virgo II operated, making them much less predictable in combat compared to just a plain mobile doll (had to be programmed beforehand and thus could only function in a certain way once deployed), so the ZERO System was pretty much the best and only way to truly counter such a system. After that one battle though, that mobile doll system was never used again by Dorothy. The only other time we see it used was by Zechs with his Virgo II escorts later, but they soon end up defeated anyway.

"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet

during that final battle the Epyon system was hooked to the MD control comupter converting them from robots acting on a scripted combat system to something like UC era Bits and the units introduced in Gundam X the Bit Mobile Suits.