It's a f***-ing disgrace. The father of one of the players, a volunteer, beaten to death by 15/16 year olds. Un-surprising from Morocco.

I live right next of the soccer club of these brain-less idiots and am very familiar with the troubles of the Moroccon youth. I really hope this wakes a few people up in the Dutch-Moroccon society. They should stop being protective about their own and start accepting that there is a problem with their youth, after that they can hopefully change the tide. Unfortunately I don't see it happening....

Couldn't agree more. The problem is way out of hand to the point where there's not a single bit of respect for authorities. "F*ck the police" is their attitude. Where I live we have a major drug problem and 90% of the dealers are of Moroccan descent.

It's sad and I honestly feel terrible for the Moroccan's in this country who just try to make a living and are good citizens. They have to put up with the negative sentiment against them because of guys like this.

I'm not surprised. Aggression in soccer has been on the rise, as is the same with increasingly violent youth who no longer know how to deal with authority figures. We've been tolerating and sometimes even facilitating this behavior for years and I believe that it's only getting worse.

Martijn

Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..

My personal reaction and those I hear around me is that this is unacceptable. But what concerns me the most is the level of punishment these guys are getting. The KNVB (Dutch football association) is not permitting them on any of their fields for... three years (Haven;t heard anything about prison or anything yet). If it was up to me, that time would be considerably less than what they'd spend in prison. Screw the minors-law, they should be tried against the adult-law.

Also, this doesn't improve the image of Morrocan youth in our country. I'm sure there are good ones out there, but it seems that the majority has little to no respect for authority and starts beating up anyone that remotely disagrees with them (OK, that's a hyperbole, but still, you get what I mean).

one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere

The typical mass-reaction by the public is of course that we're all shocked and that we think it's unacceptable. But then when the media storm is over and we all forget until something similar happens.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):The story is in the English Daily Telegraph but there is no mention of the murderers being Moroccan.
Typical.

I don't think it really matters what race or ethnic origin these "people" are/have. There are plenty of 100% Dutch folks who commit similar violent crimes.

Martijn

Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..

Will be a while before you hear about that. The Dutch justice department is kind a slow. But I fear the punishment won't be that severe either. All three of them are juveniles and therefor will get more lenient sentences. Also, it can probably not be proven who made the specific kick that killed the referee, so probably they will all be booked for aggrevated assault instead of murder. There was a case a while ago ("Nijmeegse scooterzaak") where two people on a moped killed a pedestrian. Neither of them admitted to driving the moped and there were no witnesses. Therefor neither were penalised for causing death by reckless driving ("dood door schuld"). Another case involving Moroccans.

All football games for for next weekend have been cancelled, except for the professional games. Those will have a minute silence before the game. If you ask me those games should also have been cancelled, but the KNVB believes the minute silence will be a better signal then a cancelled match. Seems a poor excuse to me, probably the commercial interests are too important to cancel the matches.

Didn't Dutch soccer have a very bad image some years ago due to football hooliganism, which seems now to have largely gone; what actions were taken to address this? Clearly, this is a major shock and if there's one single crumb of comfort his family can take is that his death will be a cold splash of water.

I would imagine that the vast, vast majority of people in the Moroccan community would condemn this action out of hand and I hope that the Dutch soccer federation would take action which would incentivise better behaviour at matches. The three teens involved should be subjected to the full rigours of the law and be banned from playing, but the soccer federation should be careful not to tar all players and the club itself with the same brush. Football is a very good way to teach discipline, not to mention fitness, and it will be counter-productive if as a result of an over-reaction, some kids are prevented from playing.

Is there a federation of referees and lines-people in the Netherlands, as there is in the UK?

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):I don't think it really matters what race or ethnic origin these "people" are/have. There are plenty of 100% Dutch folks who commit similar violent crimes.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 8):I would imagine that the vast, vast majority of people in the Moroccan community would condemn this action out of hand and I hope that the Dutch soccer federation would take action which would incentivise better behaviour at matches.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):The story is in the English Daily Telegraph but there is no mention of the murderers being Moroccan.
Typical.

Your insistence on pointing out the ethnicity of the attackers is offputing and bizarre. Do you have a problem with Arabs, Africans or both?

Violence in soccer is pervasive everywhere, with people being killed all the time. It has happened in europe, and will happen again. It happens in Latin America. Think about that before being so emphatic on the ethnicity of the criminals here.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):Your insistence on pointing out the ethnicity of the attackers is offputing and bizarre. Do you have a problem with Arabs, Africans or both?

Violence in soccer is pervasive everywhere, with people being killed all the time. It has happened in europe, and will happen again. It happens in Latin America. Think about that before being so emphatic on the ethnicity of the criminals here.

Imagine if they had been drunken American youths in Mexico running lawless. Would their ethnicity be ignored?

If it can be shown that Morracan youths are more likely to be involved in certain negative activities, it is a disservice to refuse to talk about it. This will only continue the cycle as they raise babies. We have plenty of experience here with that.

Such a sad and unacceptable event, hard to believe that 15/16 year old 'kids' can do something like this.

It's good that the KNVB (Dutch FA) has cancelled all 32,000 amateur matches this weekend and that there will be a minute silence at all professional league games. People need to stop and think.

Sadly it's not the first time this has happened. Exactly a year ago an amateur player kicked a 77 year old man in the chest because of some remark he made and the man ultimately died due of internal injuries. Where does all this anger come from?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 10):Imagine if they had been drunken American youths in Mexico running lawless. Would their ethnicity be ignored?

This analogy is so flawed in so many respects that it is pretty laughable.

Quoting lewis (Reply 12):It was actually brought up by NL posters as well, I am sure they are more familiar with the situation in the country compared to someone sitting thousands of miles away.

Yes, because I live in a cave, have access to no outside news sources and I don´t read. Many posters also expressed their opinion without addressing the ethnicity of the youths. Other news sources have not even adressed it, saying instead it´s a problem with soccer in general.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 15):Yes, because I live in a cave, have access to no outside news sources and I don´t read.

You don't need to live in a cave. I live much closer to your country than you do to the Netherlands and I don't know all the problems and issues that the Mexican society is facing. It is not something you can get by reading the news. You don't need to be so defensive about it.

And they are wrong at least where the Netherlands are concerned. It is not a problem with soccer in general, least of all on the amateur level. Some 10 years ago there were certainly football riots from time to time (associated with professional football, not amateur), but except for high profile derbys with long histories those are largely a thing of the past.

This drop in hooliganism is in no small part due to the pro-active approach by the police, the justice department, the football clubs and the KNVB. In my opinion they overdo it cause they make visiting a away match very hard. For instance mandatory bus combis where supporters are no longer allowed to go to an away game by own transit. To give an example, I live in the south of the Netherlands, but grew up in the east. The team I support is in the east. When "my team" plays against the team in the city I live, I have to drive to the stadium of my team (1,5 hours away), take the mandatory bus that arrives at the game maybe half an hour before kick off, and have to take the bus back half an hour after the final whistle. So it takes half a day to see a match that I can actually HEAR from my house when I sit in the garden! My team has absolutely no history with hooliganism. With such rules the amount of away visitors has dropped quite a lot, and with it the potential for troubles.

That's not to say that nothing ever happens during football matches. But, and I hate to bring etnicity into this again, when something happens during a football match certain etnicities are far more likely to be involved. So does that really make it a football issue? Me thinks not.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):Your insistence on pointing out the ethnicity of the attackers is offputing and bizarre. Do you have a problem with Arabs, Africans or both?

I don't know if it is MadameConcorde's intention to insist on pointing out their ethnicity or not. However, if it is, she should have no problem in doing so because *it is* their ethnicity and you should not take the unfortunate typical attitude of throwing the racist card on the table, which you seem to be doing. It is the attackers' ethnicity and any one who lives in Europe or has travelled through Europe - particularly France, Belgium, and the Netherlands - knows full well that Moroccans, indeed Northern Africans in general, integrate a segment of the population that is *significantly more frequently* associated with trouble making and fear-mongering relative to most other segments. Notice that this is not saying that they are all trouble makers at all. Please, do understand that this is not what I am saying because I am sure most would be bound to imply such. However, *I am* saying that if you were to fit a curve across segments of the population and propensity to criminal incidence, this group, in that region, would positively slope that curve significantly more than other segments. This is true whether people like it or not and this is another very unfortunate incident that cements this theory/fact. It is not unnatural that Europeans are fed up with situations like this one that are directly associated with that segment of the population and, therefore, no one should feel fear or restrain oneself from pointing it out.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):The story is in the English Daily Telegraph but there is no mention of the murderers being Moroccan.
Typical.

Same here, especially the left wing press doesnt mention it. And they have banned the commentary function to prevent anyone telling so. Happens a lot. While it prevents utter racism to come out inevitably, which is of cause good, its still not what I call free press.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):I don't think it really matters what race or ethnic origin these "people" are/have. There are plenty of 100% Dutch folks who commit similar violent crimes.

But the percentage of violence among youths from the north African/middle east area is much higher, so it matters. To close eyes and mouth over it, helps no one.

I think that's fairly easy especially if you're an immigrant you have your way of life and then you have the way of life of the country you've moved to, often they aren't compatiable, you can't get a job, you live at home, your life sucks, so you become another angry young man.

An on the topic at hand, this politically correct nonsense about no mentionning country of origin, culture or ethnicity is ridiculous. Every one knows in France, Be and NL that the North-African minorities are the most trouble-making ones. It's so very clear. Now the question is how does one stop that. And it shouldn't include, necessarily, eradication, mass murder or mass deportation. That's where the racism would lie.

It would include, however, education for example. Amongst many other things, obviously.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 18):
I don't know if it is MadameConcorde's intention to insist on pointing out their ethnicity or not. However, if it is, she should have no problem in doing so because *it is* their ethnicity and you should not take the unfortunate typical attitude of throwing the racist card on the table, which you seem to be doing. It is the attackers' ethnicity and any one who lives in Europe or has travelled through Europe - particularly France, Belgium, and the Netherlands - knows full well that Moroccans, indeed Northern Africans in general, integrate a segment of the population that is *significantly more frequently* associated with trouble making and fear-mongering relative to most other segments. Notice that this is not saying that they are all trouble makers at all. Please, do understand that this is not what I am saying because I am sure most would be bound to imply such. However, *I am* saying that if you were to fit a curve across segments of the population and propensity to criminal incidence, this group, in that region, would positively slope that curve significantly more than other segments. This is true whether people like it or not and this is another very unfortunate incident that cements this theory/fact. It is not unnatural that Europeans are fed up with situations like this one that are directly associated with that segment of the population and, therefore, no one should feel fear or restrain oneself from pointing it out.

Speedbird741

Over here there are also issues with minor league football matches involving Turkish clubs. Often riot police has to be presen t at these amateur matches.
The problem is that a large part of the lesser educated Turkish and Arab teenage / early 20s male population has been adopting a "latino gansta" attitude, which they copied from American movies, based on American Latino street gangs.
One part of it is an extreme machismo attitude and an extreme sensitivity to anything considered to be an insult. The might be e.g. a referee´s decision. For them such insults have to be answered invariably with violence.
In fact, for them anybody not acting very aggressive and violent is a "victim" and therefore to be despised.
Very trivial incidents will be perceived as an insult ("What are you looking at (me, my girlfriend, my friend etc.) like this?" )and will cause violent retribution, often by the whole group.

If you are in neighbourhoods where such gangs prevail, better get out of the way if you see groups of such teenagers / young men.