tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post115625312132661310..comments2015-03-03T14:38:05.218-06:00Comments on Althouse: Accepting the death penalty.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156351801164073932006-08-23T11:50:00.000-05:002006-08-23T11:50:00.000-05:00Here's a link to the article from Hein Online, alb...<A HREF="http://www.heinonline.org/HOL/Page?handle=hein.journals/valr77&collection=journals&id=1187" REL="nofollow">Here</A>'s a link to the article from Hein Online, albeit one that needs a subscription. But everyone should have one!Chrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03271755158977937483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156323082493493922006-08-23T03:51:00.000-05:002006-08-23T03:51:00.000-05:00Oh, dear.You got me Ann. I can't spell.Oh, dear.<BR/><BR/>You got me Ann. I can't spell.Eli Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00792743206074537073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156297997079919962006-08-22T20:53:00.000-05:002006-08-22T20:53:00.000-05:00The post reminds me of this movie: The Life of Dav...The post reminds me of this movie: The Life of David Gale<BR/><BR/>http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0289992/hokutohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08691642420286265217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156297224263264932006-08-22T20:40:00.000-05:002006-08-22T20:40:00.000-05:00Eli Blake said..."Keep in mind that the twelve sta...Eli Blake said...<BR/>"<I>Keep in mind that the twelve states without it (Wisconsin being one of those) have on average a lower rate of murder than the states with it.</I>"<BR/><BR/>That is only a damning indictment if one believes that the sole purpose of capital punishment is deterrence rather than what its name would imply: <I>punishment</I>. If the punishment serves as a deterrent too, then that's so much the better, but that isn't its primary function. As I <A HREF="http://simondodd.org/noise2signal/?view=singleentry&entry=255" REL="nofollow">explained</A> in January, I <I>do</I> support an immediate moratorium on the death penalty, and a fortiori, I oppose its introduction in Wisconsin.Simonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10756115908130493038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156289590947568162006-08-22T18:33:00.000-05:002006-08-22T18:33:00.000-05:00After reading my last post, I want to be clear tha...After reading my last post, I want to be clear that in the second paragraph, I was referring to Gilmore, not Socrates.quietnorthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664106985851562632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156289468386031442006-08-22T18:31:00.000-05:002006-08-22T18:31:00.000-05:00Socrates believed in an afterlife, but he was will...Socrates believed in an afterlife, but he was willing to entertain the idea he was wrong even to the last discussion, as I remember. So his committment to death was not based on his certainty of reward in the afterlife, but in his view of the rightness or wrongness of the decision itself. <BR/><BR/>Couldn't declining an appeal be a psychological way of saying "f*ck you?" Like Will in Good Will Hunting given the choice of being beaten with a belt, a stick, or a wrench, choosing the wrench. It isn't an ethical action, but an interpersonal one.quietnorthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664106985851562632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156288092493152882006-08-22T18:08:00.000-05:002006-08-22T18:08:00.000-05:00"I believe that if the state supercedes God in det..."I believe that if the state supercedes God in determining who lives and who dies and on what day they die, then the state becomes the arbiter of ethics and morality on the subject."<BR/><BR/>I agree, except as to the spelling of "supersedes."<BR/><BR/>Wisconsinites: Vote no! Preserve our tradition.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156287136044483072006-08-22T17:52:00.000-05:002006-08-22T17:52:00.000-05:00Patrick Henry was a Virginian. The slogan "Live fr...Patrick Henry was a Virginian. The slogan "Live free or die" on the New Hampshire license plates is attributed to John Stark, who was a New Hampshirite.<BR/><BR/>As far as the death penalty is concerned,<BR/><BR/>Keep in mind that the twelve states without it (Wisconsin being one of those) have on average a lower rate of murder than the states with it. Even demographically similar states, such as Illinois (which has the death penalty) and Michigan (which does not), when compared show that the state with the death penalty is nearly always higher in terms of its murder rate.<BR/><BR/>Why is this? Well, the answer can be seen in what has happened in Russia. There, the death penalty was given for even the smallest of offenses under the communist rule, and the obvious disregard for human life on the part of the state led people to feel the same way. Hence when they were 'free' the first thing they did was go on an unprecedented crime spree, and are still shooting, stabbing and blowing each other up at a much higher rate than any other industrialized country except of course for the United States.<BR/><BR/>I believe that if the state supercedes God in determining who lives and who dies and on what day they die, then the state becomes the arbiter of ethics and morality on the subject. Hence we become only as moral as the state. And this explains why there are more murders in death penalty states. Life is cheaper where men are employed by the state to kill prisoners.Eli Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00792743206074537073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156282266885254632006-08-22T16:31:00.000-05:002006-08-22T16:31:00.000-05:00Simon said... Smilin' Jack - How do you figure tha...<I>Simon said... <BR/>Smilin' Jack - How do you figure that "Gilmore deprived us of whatever satisfaction attaches to social vengeance"?</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Uh, that's a quote from Ann's post...it's good, you should try reading it.Smilin' Jackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06169692720166116810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156281658541126992006-08-22T16:20:00.000-05:002006-08-22T16:20:00.000-05:00Smilin' Jack - How do you figure that "Gilmore dep...Smilin' Jack - How do you figure that "<I>Gilmore deprived us of whatever satisfaction attaches to social vengeance</I>"? He was found guilty; he was sentenced to death; he was executed. Where do you see some sort of perverse triumph for Gilmore in that? The only thing he deprived anyone of was the LDF's de facto moratorium on the death penalty.Simonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10756115908130493038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156280053447983352006-08-22T15:54:00.000-05:002006-08-22T15:54:00.000-05:00Gilmore is incomparable with Jesus and Socrates fo...<I>Gilmore is incomparable with Jesus and Socrates for any number of reasons, but among those reasons is that only Gilmore deprived us of whatever satisfaction attaches to social vengeance.</I><BR/><BR/>In that respect Jesus was a lot worse than Gilmore, because He actually came back to life. Imagine how the Pharisees felt when they heard about that!<BR/><BR/>And I've always been amused by the "Live Free or Die" on NH plates...people who really believe that don't <I>have</I> license plates.Smilin' Jackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06169692720166116810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156275639476238532006-08-22T14:40:00.000-05:002006-08-22T14:40:00.000-05:00Explanation for the "fluffy slippers" title, from ...Explanation for the "fluffy slippers" title, from the text of the article:<BR/><BR/>"The Executioner's Song has a thousand pages of facts without conclusions. The circles of people around Gary Gilmore radiate out with a maddening lack of boundary. Their connections to him are sometimes intense, sometimes remote. The Supreme Court case pops up at one brief point, just to say that Bessie Gilmore, the condemned man's mother, could not apply for a stay of execution. Mailer does not show us the Supreme Court's opinion (which is also minimal). He shows us what ordinary people see when they find out about a Supreme Court case -- the local newspaper:<BR/><BR/>'Deseret News<BR/><BR/>'No More Delays Gilmore Says<BR/><BR/>'Salt Lake, Dec. 13th -- In an order Monday, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Gary Mark Gilmore had made a knowing and intelligent waiver of his rights.<BR/><BR/>'On hearing the decision, Gilmore ended a 25 day hunger strike.'<BR/><BR/>"The law is notable for its distance and its extreme smallness in relation to everything else in the story. The Supreme Court seems like an obtuse and ineffectual interloper, an abstract mind rendered stupid by the complete absence of context. On the facing page, the book tells you that visitors had brought Bessie Gilmore a red shawl and "fluffy house slippers to keep her feet warm." They had forgotten to talk about the Supreme Court case. These trivial facts seem to symbolize the vast separation between people and the Court. How separate are the reality of the actors in the underlying event and the reality of the law: Bessie with her feet kept warm in slippers (a particular kind of slippers) and Bessie with no 'standing' to seek a stay. Perhaps the participants sensed that more relief would come from warm clothing than from the Court."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156274204582528362006-08-22T14:16:00.000-05:002006-08-22T14:16:00.000-05:00Don S said..."Only by accident, and after the utmo...Don S said...<BR/>"<I>Only by accident, and after the utmost efforts of all involved to prevent it.</I>"<BR/><BR/>What was the accident, and what is your understanding of the term "<I>all</I> involved"? Glib little comments don't really help further the discussion, and they don't even make a point, so if you're going to clutter up the page, at least clutter it by actually expressing an opinion rather than meaningless verbiage masquerading as droll disinterest.Simonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10756115908130493038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156274149072440212006-08-22T14:15:00.000-05:002006-08-22T14:15:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Simonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10756115908130493038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156272235299905592006-08-22T13:43:00.000-05:002006-08-22T13:43:00.000-05:00a legal system we still support and view as a sour...a legal system we still support and view as a source of justice....<BR/>Only by accident, and after the untmost efforts of all involved to prevent it.Don Shttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09073590588479657053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156268395840805252006-08-22T12:39:00.000-05:002006-08-22T12:39:00.000-05:00Back to The Stranger again, think of the main char...Back to The Stranger again, think of the main character, who found release and freedom in the knowledge and certainty of his death. It does put life into sharp focus.PatCAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03731945242398845044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156266182345103582006-08-22T12:03:00.000-05:002006-08-22T12:03:00.000-05:00I would think that at least a few of such people w...<EM>I would think that at least a few of such people would be convincted by conscience and feel that their death sentences were just. Some may even view accepting such a sentence as a means of atonement.</EM><BR/><BR/>My recollection is that the last was in fact the case for Gilmore. He apparently believed that his only hope for forgiveness in the next world was to accept his just punishment in this world.Kenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17862400847914256832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156264117251982542006-08-22T11:28:00.000-05:002006-08-22T11:28:00.000-05:00Ann asks: what do you think of those who don't ap...Ann asks: what do you think of those who don't appeal?<BR/><BR/>I don't think about them much at all, and don't have any burning interest to understand whatever motivates their choices. That they intentionally chose to participate in one or more murders, with some special aggravating factor to boot -- that's basically the only "death eligible" crime under current SCOTUS death penalty jurisprudence -- means that these characters have a very different makeup from normal people. No "one size fits all" explanation is possible. <BR/><BR/>The commenters on this string are all trying to suggest rational motives for the choices made by these death row inmates who decide not to appeal -- some imagined desire for finality, a yearning to be free that can never be satisfied, something else. These explanations all romanticize the death row inmate in a way that seems to me to be very dubious. Perhaps those explanations might fit some subset of death row inmates. But for most, I suspect that "normal" and "rational" aren't descriptions that will ever apply to them. <BR/><BR/>That's also the reason why so many of the examples in your Va Law Review footnote have such an odd, out of context quality here. It's certainly true that many admirable and upstanding historical characters have chosen to accept death rather than some other path deemed less honorable. But there's a real disconnect in trying to explain the reasoning or moral calculations of a death row inmate by use of those examples. And the citation to the New Testament really falls flat -- without the crucifixion, there could have been no resurrection, and thus no point to the incarnation. To what subset of death row inmates might that experience apply?Richard Dolanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08256031483524019764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156261275401329012006-08-22T10:41:00.000-05:002006-08-22T10:41:00.000-05:00I once represented a death row inmate who wished n...I once represented a death row inmate who wished not to appeal. He had previously pled guilty to a capital crime and expressly waived his appellate rights. The state forced an appeal, and the Cal. Supreme Court reversed on the ground that his lawyer didn't consent to the plea. He then was tried before a jury and convicted, and again sentenced to death. The Supreme Court affirmed, rejecting our argument that the trial was barred by the double jeopardy clause,on the theory that jeopardy never attached at the time of the guilty plea, despite that the plea was accepted, a penalty trial was conducted, and he was sentenced to death. See People v. Massie, 19 Cal.4th 550 (1998). When he waived federal review, without my oppositon, "friends" sought, unsuccessfully, to have me removed as counsel so that others could seek a declaration of incompetence in order to pursue federal appeals against the client's wishes (he was a very intelligent, thoughtful, and sane man). See Massie v. Woodford, 244 F.3d 1192 (9th Cir. 2001). In the weeks leading up to his execution, I was castigated by the establishment death penalty defense bar (I am a civil appellate attorney, and took the case pro bono at the request of the Supreme Court) for not ignoring my client's wishes, seeking to have him declared incompetent, and pursuing all available appellate remedies despite my client's clear desire to end the matter. "Tool of the prosecution" was one of the more pleasant things I was called. I have no doubt we did the right thing, but I wouldn't wish the experience on anyone.shake-and-bakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05167359106248408759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156259298583180052006-08-22T10:08:00.000-05:002006-08-22T10:08:00.000-05:00I think I dated somebody named 'Fluffy Slippers' o...I think I dated somebody named 'Fluffy Slippers' once!<BR/><BR/>In any case, supporting somebody on deathrow for decades at about 100,000 dollars a year is money poorly spent.<BR/><BR/>I have visions of pro-abortionists going from picketing a family planning clinic to a candlelight vigil for convicted murderer Tookie Williams without their giving a thought to the irony.Davidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12429316324625420960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156258744177302232006-08-22T09:59:00.000-05:002006-08-22T09:59:00.000-05:00I would think that at least a few of such people w...I would think that at least a few of such people would be convincted by conscience and feel that their death sentences were just. Some may even view accepting such a sentence as a means of atonement.Freeman Hunthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156256938998056382006-08-22T09:28:00.000-05:002006-08-22T09:28:00.000-05:00The article is not linkable, but here's the cite: ...<I>The article is not linkable, but here's the cite: Althouse, Standing, in Fluffy Slippers, 77 Va. L. Rev. 1177 (1991).</I><BR/><BR/>With Althouse, it's all about the fashion choices!<BR/><BR/>The real question is: Does Althouse approve of fluffy slippers, or are they on the verbotten list along with shorts? Perhaps she was arguing the appropriateness of the death penalty as a punishment for truly egregious fashion crimes.Icepickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05103000430981832941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156256594664081442006-08-22T09:23:00.000-05:002006-08-22T09:23:00.000-05:00In the late stages of the lives of some with greiv...In the late stages of the lives of some with greivous character disorders, there sometimes arises a conscience, and consequent depression. Some of these people die because knowing they deserve it.<BR/><BR/>Some, of course, have the soul left out, and die in a state of perfect logic: they cared nothing for someone else's life, and nothing for their own.Simon Kentonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01968074310334668655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156256087206031162006-08-22T09:14:00.000-05:002006-08-22T09:14:00.000-05:00If lawyers want the death penalty to be perfect? ...If lawyers want the death penalty to be perfect? then there is no need of lawyers.<BR/><BR/>The death penalty is domestic war, and sometimes innocents die.<BR/><BR/>It's cold, but it's true. Note that most of the allies who oppose the death penalty oppose war, all war.Wickedpintohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09504528933803527064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1156255300747858822006-08-22T09:01:00.000-05:002006-08-22T09:01:00.000-05:00Perhaps you also cited this reason in the article:...Perhaps you also cited this reason in the article: a desire for finality. It might be easier to let go of the anxiety a small hope would generate than to nourish it.sparkyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17040750257266963659noreply@blogger.com