Dunno! He killed his own father. As dark as Vader went, he never killed a family member. He clearly still cared for Padme, & had no desire to kill Luke. I doubt he would have killed Shme if she had been alive by that time either. I know that we do seee conflict in Kylo Ren, but he may well be going further & further into the darkside to the point where he's ireddemible. Also, we've already had a Villlain redemption ark with Vader. Do we really need another one? I don't want this trilogy to overly mimic the OT. As it is, Episode VII seems awfully similar to Episode IV.

Originally posted by batman Dunno! He killed his own father. As dark as Vader went, he never killed a family member. He clearly still cared for Padme, & had no desire to kill Luke. I doubt he would have killed Shme if she had been alive by that time either.

So Vader's a baddie with principles now? Vader slaughtered children, Tusken children and Jedi children. I don't think one can actually put these two on scales and judge who is worse...

Yeah since when is being a relative the ultimate pinnacle and standard of morality and temptation? Sure, I personally massacred an entire village. Sure, I betrayed my entire organization, ideology, comrades, best friend, and wife. Sure, I butchered the f*ck out of a group of defenseless small children. Sure, I stood by (and helped) while a tyrannical monster took over the galaxy. Sure, I was totally cool watching an entire world being obliterated and killing billions of people. Sure, I'm the walking embodiment of all that is wrong with mankind.

But I didn't kill my dad, so that makes me the lesser of two evils.

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Originally posted by Lord Lucien Yeah since when is being a relative the ultimate pinnacle and standard of morality and temptation? Sure, I personally massacred an entire village. Sure, I betrayed my entire organization, ideology, comrades, best friend, and wife. Sure, I butchered the f*ck out of a group of defenseless small children. Sure, I stood by (and helped) while a tyrannical monster took over the galaxy. Sure, I was totally cool watching an entire world being obliterated and killing billions of people. Sure, I'm the walking embodiment of all that is wrong with mankind.

See, this throwing around the word 'redeemed' is always something I am wary of- not because of the concept, but because of how people often use it. Some parts of the EU treat redemption like a heel/face turn in wrestling, where a bad guy can put his past aside and now start hitting for the good guys.

But that's such gibberish. Take Vader- say he lived in ROTJ. What then? Well, I would imagine he would be at the centre of vast war crimes trials for the unimaginable evils he has perpetrated, and no amount of 'I brought Balance to the Force' would change any of that. He'd get the death sentence or life in jail.

Redemption is obviously a good thing but it would leave a broken and forever haunted person who would never be allowed to be active in the galaxy again. Yoda's 'forever will it dominate your destiny' line resonates truly.

Dramatically speaking, Vader dying there was the best thing that could happen. Although not literally required for redemption, all things considered, redemption = death. He had to die for it to work. He had no life left after that anyway.

So here we are again with Kylo. Sure, he might redeem- but that's his destruction. He can't go with any sort of life on after all he's done.

In the end, there is no moral redemption for any of these people. The only reason we can talk of redemption at all is because Force Users have a cosmic variable- their force alignment. But that's such a vague thing to try and define from just a person; it has to be matched by some sort of super-deed to show the shift, so what this basically amounts to is "What good thing will Kylo do before he dies?"

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If Vader had survived, he would have made amends for his errors, facing the -deserved- hate from those he helps and fighting for balancing the force even further. Of course, he could not probably become a family man after what happened to him, but his redemption is, narratively speaking, possible. Because Vader after all, is a valid character.

No, I have to agree with Ush on this one. I don't think Vader redeemed himself fully. But he did redeem himself for his son. After all, he's the only one he actually spared. I think cutting off Luke's hand may have been a way to stop the fight without killing Luke. But yeah, his death was necessary.

I would like for them to go into a different direction than what they did with Vader. Vader had to die in his redemption but there's a chance that Kylo Ren could live in redemption. He kills Snoke and whoever Ben Toro's character is that pulled the strings on Kylo and the Knights of Ren and ends up living through. I believe that he can be redeemed but they shouldn't duplicate Vader on him.

P.S. Another way Kylo Ren can be redeemed is through Leslie Jones. Leslie Jones taught Kylo Ren how to use the calcinator in the SNL Undercover Boss version of Force Awakens and she also had a bad temper like he did. Somewhere in Episode 8 or 9 they encounter each other and go at it for a while but then Leslie Jones taps into her inner white girl(Reese Witherspoon) and it calms them both down and Kylo Ren is able to come to himself as Ben Solo and keep balance in the force.

Indeed, so, and no matter what happens to Ren, Leia's already seen him become a genocidal mass murderer; that can't be undone.

I think 'Kylo takes out Snoke' is probably the easiest way for a redemptive end, but despite TFA I'd be surprised if they copy the OT quite that much.

I think Snoke has to be Rey's purpose, anyway.

The other thing to think about with Ren- unless Rey does turn out to be related- is what becomes of the Skywalker line. As far as we know right now, Ren is all there is. There's a number of dramatic possibilities there.

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