Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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<quoted text>Now it does not get any more circular than that.1. If life was caused, it must have been by non-life.2. Life was caused.3. Therefore non-life caused it.You don't see a problem with this argument?And you want me to accept this as a logical argument?

No, that was NOT my argument.

My argument had two branches: either life has always existed or there was a time when it did not.

I then argued that life did not always exist. I did this by showing that the conditions for life did not exist at some point in the past. So there was a time when life did not exist.

We know that life exists now. So, since there was a time when life did not exist, the cause of the earliest life, being prior to that life, had to be non-life.

<quoted text>There are two types of logical reasoning.Deductive and inductive.One supplies absolutes.The other supplies possibilities.If you are arguing that you know that abiogenesis occurred by arockdidit, then you are claiming deductive truth claims which you can verify.If you are arguing inductive, then you are arguing for the possibility.I was originally responding to a claim someone made, that they cannot know anything unless they can comprehend it fully.They were making an appeal to empiricism, which of course is a flawed appeal.

<quoted text>One can not experience anyting if they have no working senses to gather the information or a working brain to process that information. You too will experience eternal death and dishonestly clinging to death denying fairytales can not save you. A corpse is not very confusing. Do you also believe if you smash a bottle against a wall it still exists intact, off somewhere else? That's how silly your life after death nonsense is.

<quoted text>One can not experience anyting if they have no working senses to gather the information or a working brain to process that information. You too will experience eternal death and dishonestly clinging to death denying fairytales can not save you. A corpse is not very confusing. Do you also believe if you smash a bottle against a wall it still exists intact, off somewhere else? That's how silly your life after death nonsense is.

Mr. or Ms. Stoic, you are in for a surprise.

Once upon a time my consciousness signed out of this place. It was gone. Finis. Over. Done. Didn't even look back. Just a change in consciousness and having to deal with a new reality. Not one single concern that my existence as a being was going to end. Not one. I had just been hit rather hard by a truck in this one. Surprise, surprise. No preconceived notions.

It will happen to you. You can try to book reservations now, or you can take potluck.

<quoted text>If God was outside of time and space, as He created it, then He would have to reveal that fact in some form.To do this, He has shown, through prophecy, that this is the case.It is a logical conclusion.1. To prove God is eternal, He has to show knowledge that He operates outside the bounds of time.2. God reveals the future through prophecy, operating outside of time.3. God proves He is eternal.

I would argue that to be eternal doesn't require being "outside of time" as much as it requires time to simply not have a beginning. And I'm ok with that.

Although i am not rejecting the conclusion of god being eternal... i think the reasoning is flawed.

1. God doesn't have to prove he is outside of time to be eternal.2. I would ask what prophecy has proven that. Also we have people like Nostradamus who made loose predictions of future events that people believe as well... but nobody would then say that he exists outside of time.

mtimber wrote:

<quoted text>Second Part:1. The universe had a start, a first cause that was not of the universe.2. That first cause has to show that it is outside of time.3. God has shown He is outside of term and therefore the first cause.Plenty of evidence that God is the Creator, using very simple logic.

I am not very highly educated on the big bang. I just know the basics. I just know that this "outside of time" concept is strange as time is a before and after measurement.

Again, every thought and every action have a before and after. Even the thought to create the universe would take time and would place him within the constructs of it.

mtimber wrote:

<quoted text>God presents His own argument here:Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Being i am no longer a Christian... the bible isn't a reference i use any longer. I am not saying that if it does show to hold something undeniably amazing that i will reject it. Its just full of passages that can be stretched to mean enough different meanings to cause hundreds of different things to the different churches and hundreds of thousands of different things to different Christians who all think they are the ones who really understand it.

I want to add that the thing that made me initially read your posts is that you asked a lot of questions.....Well structured questions that had very little negativity laced within them. I won't say I wasn't bothered by some wording and assumptions made... but you didn't give in to the anger being exchanged all over this forum. I can't say i am innocent of the same. Good job.

<quoted text>Based upon the quote I provided by Lincoln he felt every preacher was a lair making claims with no knowledge that the claims were true. All politicians reference god, especially in the 19th century. They do this for support from all the ignorant simple minded biased peasants who believe in god. However the original draft of the Gettysburg Address does not mention god. Dishonest christian historians added it later. Typical.

Thank you for all of your responses. I would admit in the ranks of Christianity there are some dishonest people. But not everyone is dishonest as you have alleged.

Such stereotyping a entire group is nothing more than extreme bigotry. The type of bigotry that the Nazis displayed openly and privately against the Jewish people. Such hatred lead to the genocide of millions of people.

The way you see people of faith thankfully is not the way most people surmise. Your views are outside the norm for a free society. Since we are a free society your welcome to your isolated extreme bigoted views.

I however do not share you view about Atheist the same way you view believers. There are many honest and upstanding Atheist. Then of course there are the extreme militant Atheist. Nasty, rude, bigoted Atheist with spewing hate. Thankfully they do not represent the entire Atheist population.

It doesn't? Lol you had to look long and hard for some crazy no name translation with explanations added lol!

Yes stone her to death and if she is raped pay the father 50 shekels! Lmfao some morality eh?

So yes indeed if she is not a virgin or is an unlucky girl without a hymen or just doesn't bleed on a cloth for her dad to wave around stone her to death!

Eagle12 wrote:

<quoted text>The scripture you referenced doesnít say that any woman who is not a virgin should be stoned.20. But if it is true that the evidences of virginity were not found in the young woman,21. Then they shall bring her to the door of her fatherís house and the men of her city shall stone her to death.29. Then the man who lay with her shall give to the girlís father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not divorce her all his days.

Your god commanded rape, killing and putting the infant to the sword. Do you find this moral? Regardless of whoever's words you are deliberately obfuscating it meaningless. Your god your absolute authority for morality commanded his people to rape kill and even put infants to the sword. Is that moral yes or no?

Stop running like a coward, retard and answer.

mtimber wrote:

<quoted text>News flash.One of your atheist buddies just argued that there is a situation where rape is acceptable...I will ask you to answer the same test, to see if your worldview is one you live by:The last man and woman are on an island.For the survival of the species, they need to procreate.The man wants to and the woman does not.Would it be okay for the man to rape the woman in this instance?

Ah another Christian liar! Before when I mocked your name you berated me saying it was a Russian word and you know it. Now you when proven wrong resort to lying.

As expected typical Christhole.

Well so back to my original comment your screen name is stolen from a stupid made for TV movie! How lame! Stop scampering.

Once again I have factually crushed you half wit.

Langoliers wrote:

<quoted text>Why that's just too funny! You wasted all this time and effort over one little remark I made. I never claimed it was a Russian word, I said you don't know what it means in Russian. I did not say I knew what it meant. LOLI played a little word game that atheist play all the time. LOLKeep digging! Someday you'll wake up. LOLWhat a dolt.

Your god commanded rape, killing and putting the infant to the sword. Do you find this moral? Regardless of whoever's words you are deliberately obfuscating it meaningless. Your god your absolute authority for morality commanded his people to rape kill and even put infants to the sword. Is that moral yes or no?Stop running like a coward, retard and answer.<quoted text>

Same tired old post...

nothing to raise atheism from the obscurity of 4% supportin the United States.

Yawn special pleading logical fallacy. So again for what the 12th time is it?

Your god ordered his people to take slaves, rape children and put every infant to the sword, moral yes or no?

We're these good things to do in your opinion? Chopping up infants in front of their screaming and crying pleading mothers is cool with you?

mtimber wrote:

<quoted text>If God was outside of time and space, as He created it, then He would have to reveal that fact in some form.To do this, He has shown, through prophecy, that this is the case.It is a logical conclusion.1. To prove God is eternal, He has to show knowledge that He operates outside the bounds of time.2. God reveals the future through prophecy, operating outside of time.3. God proves He is eternal.Second Part:1. The universe had a start, a first cause that was not of the universe.2. That first cause has to show that it is outside of time.3. God has shown He is outside of term and therefore the first cause.Plenty of evidence that God is the Creator, using very simple logic.God presents His own argument here:Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Ah yes Adam and Eve. Your god decided to allow the suffering an deaths of trillions of people due to Eve's dietary choices. Lol! She ate a magical apple because she was tricked by a talking snake and god decides everyone has to suffer because of that!

What a psychopath your god is.

mtimber wrote:

<quoted text>Yes, if you want to hide behind it so God can't see you.Just like Adam and Eve in the Garden.Man still attempts that foolishness to this day.Except these days, it is no longer a bush, but a rock.

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