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pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21718
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: mikhailoh

(posted on another thread but very appropriate here)

pianoplayer61.. I have really tried to accept you are who you say you are and take you seriously, but with each and every post you pump up these Perzinas as a great piano.

You say you own Bosies, Bechsteins and Faziolis, and I think maybe a Steinway you gave away to a son if memory serves - some of the world's finest and most expensive instruments. You give your son a Steinway, but for your beloved grandson you bought a Chinese upright.

Too much for me. I know you have denied this, but on a gut level I believe you must be in the industry related to Perzina somehow. Your broken English seems to me contrived. At times your writing is exceptionally clear and well structured, fine spelling, then you get back into the almost comedic misspellings. Read aloud it sounds like you picked up the English from a bad sitcom's idea of a Hispanic maid.

I sincerely hope I am wrong, but my instincts tell me I am not.

PS: Why do you hide your email? People can send you email but not know whom they are sending it to?

PianoPlayer's post may be intentionally comedic or just a put on, but I can't imagine it's intended as a Perzina plug. It's so outrageous that no one intending to seriously plug Perzina would post like that.

As a technician, I have to chuckle at the idea of this thread. I believe that the vast majority of piano players have way too small a sample size of the instruments mentioned to make such broad generalizations about quality.

The best companies occasionally make a lemon, and the worst companies occasionally accidentally make a good one!

By far, any piano's performance relates more to the care and service it receives than what name is on the key cover.

Interesting how some of these topics somehow get a second life years after they have been initially put to bed.

Whenever this discussion comes upâ€”as it does from time to time when piano technicians gather togetherâ€”I tend to get some philosophical: before arriving at an answer I think we have to define â€śworst ever.â€ť

As always in these discussions squares and over-damper uprights have been nominated for the title but is that really fair? Both of these designs were state-of-the-art at one time. And, over time, Iâ€™ve encountered examples of both types that have been quite credible instruments. And others that are strong contenders for the title. Do we have the right, today, to contemptuously dismiss either of these body types just because our ancestors took what was learned from those early efforts and developed what we now laughingly call the â€śmodernâ€ť piano?

Many, if not most, piano technicians and more than a few pianists have considerable respect those big old uprights that are now beginning to populate our landfills. But some of them really deserve to end up there! Not all of the pianos built during those most golden years of American piano productionâ€”roughly from 1890 to 1930â€”could make any legitimate claims on either structural or musical competence. Some of them were rubbish from the start.

We find it easy to toss pianos like the lateâ€”and largely unlamentedâ€”Grand Spinets into this category. Still, for many families this was the best they were going to get. We look back on them today with derision and wonder why people ever bought them but we do so from todayâ€™s perspective not from the perspective of the day. We forget that when the Grand Spinet made its impact on the music world it was considered a good value. It was less expensive than those â€śused uprightsâ€ť we so often compare them with today. We forget those used uprights were 40 or 50 years younger than they are today and were still a viable part of the piano marketplace.

Just what criteria do we use to create the designation â€śworst everâ€ť piano? Consider the first six letters of the word â€śdesignation.â€ť Do pianos qualify on the basis of their â€śdesign?â€ť Or their construction? Or the materials used? Or do they have to qualify in each category? A couple of weeks ago I tuned a short (probably 5â€™ 2â€ť or so) Aldrich grandâ€”how many of you have ever heard of those?â€”that was rather indifferently built using materials of only fair-to-middling quality that still, after some 90 years of service, still sounds quite credible because of its outstanding design. Iâ€™d love to rebuild that little piano; it would put more than a few â€śhigh-endâ€ť contemporary grands to shame! And it looks a lot better as well. Yet on the basis of its construction and materials many would include it in their list of â€śworst ever.â€ť

Conversely, there are more than a few so-called â€śmodernâ€ť pianos that Iâ€™d put on my list of â€śworst everâ€ť based solely on their design. Without naming namesâ€”I still want to be allowed to visit NAMM and the Frankfurt Musikmesse and Iâ€™d prefer not being banned from the Piano Forum for lifeâ€”Iâ€™ll just mention in passing that if you build it well enough even a mediocre (or worse) design can be made to sound pretty good. It may require an inordinate amount of technical skill to keep it sounding good but who cares; it bears a prestigious name and it costs a whole lot of money so it must be worth it.

I think Ryan pretty much covered things when he said,

Quote:

â€śThe best companies occasionally make a lemon, and the worst companies occasionally accidentally make a good one!

By far, any piano's performance relates more to the care and service it receives than what name is on the key cover.â€ť

We tend to forget that not all of these pianosâ€”the ones that end up on our â€śworst-everâ€ť listsâ€”were built for the ages. The Grand Console was never intended to be the equal of a Steinway Model 100â€”although when equally well-prepped there wasnâ€™t that much difference in their performanceâ€”and this difference was reflected in their pricing. For the price of that Steinway you could have purchased a half-dozen Grand Consoles, put five of them in storage and handed out a brand new piano to each successive generation; theyâ€™d still be going strong in 2060! But today we tend to judge them on the same overall value scale. We compare even the best over-damper upright to the modern upright and condemn them because we donâ€™t like working on them. We condemn the square because, well, they are square. And we donâ€™t know how to work on them. And, yes, there are clear performance limitations to their design butâ€”when compared to their modern counterpartsâ€”there are limitations to the design of cars built a century back as well. But we lovingly cherish and restore old cars to technical and materials standards undreamed of by their original manufacturers.

Maybe we need to give some of these old pianos the same breaks we give to other really old things. After all, we donâ€™t expect a 1930s radio or a 1950 television or a 1980s computer to compete directly with their 2012 counterparts do we?

There is an interesting anecdote which Kenny Werner tells in Effortless Mastery about how Bill Evans was at a muscians house party which had a notoriously bright piano (make not specified but definitely implied). A few other great professional pianists were there and the piano was giving everyone migraines. Then Bill Evans sat down and made it sound warm and sweet. He had the touch, and sensitivity to reel in the instrument.

There are greats and then there are GREATS.

The hammers didn't change, the strings didn't change, someone with a great deal of technique\control can play softer and thus it seems the piano is warm and sweet.

Amateurs have no problem playing loud, it's playing softly that's difficult.

Well, I know that this thread is very old, but it's interesting none the less. Unless I missed something, nobody mentioned the infamous Betsy Ross Spinet by Lester. I once had a piano salesman try to explain why the Belaruse was a "fantastic instrument with a massive iron plate". I used to work at a Wurlitzer store that had a new Kincaid spinet that was horrible. I also remember having a Horugal grand in that store that was mighty bad. I have run across some Hyundai pianos that seemed pretty bad to me, and many of the early Chinese pianos were horrific, but as much as we like to dis the early Korean and Chinese pianos, some of the American made pianos from the 60' through the 90's were just as bad and the companies couldn't say they were new to the manufacturing process - they either just didn't care or were such bad business people that they thought that cheapening their instruments would be the best way to compete with the Japanese.

Funny story. I was playing a corporate party at the Venetian in Las Vegas, a smallish room, and all their good pianos were "taken". So I ended up with a Kimball 4' something "italianette" furniture grand they got ripped off on. Not one note was remotely in tune and twelve sticking keys all in the middle five octaves, a complete disaster. I panicked, they tried to find another piano, nothing doing. By the time I started there were already about 50 people in the room and they were loud. Thank God I thought. By the end of the first song, the place was packed from wall to wall and no one could hear a note I was playing. Saved. I duct taped down the sticking keys (better than trying to pry them up WHILE playing) and no one was the wiser. I couldn't hear what awful noise that thing was making, let alone anyone else.

I can't believe that I'm about to post this, but I will defend the Betsy Ross Lester Spinet!

One must hear the results of the "Mighty Lester" and grant Rockford, IL as the home of the "World's Most Famous Lester."

Numerous recordings of this "astonishing" instrument have been posted by its owner, Cinnamonbear, after its 'triumphant' restoration. The restoration work was performed by Mr. Bear, with the help of Bill Bremmer.

(Actually, it's a decent little piano! Maybe Cinnamonbear will grace us with a link for an example.)

I actually like Lester pianos, I've sent several " Betsy Ross" spinets to recording studios here who have other pianos and they love them even though they look out of place next to the multiple C-7s lol. I've got one in the paint booth right now getting grain filled. I never got the Rounded over key front idea though but I have never seen any chipped.

My vote is anything with soybean plastic actions or Winter pianos with Aluminum plates. I went to pick one up once and almost threw it through the ceiling expecting mass not balsa type weight.

My favorites are not everyone elses but I have a soft spot for anything Jacob Doll & Sons , Behr Bros I also like those ancient Mason Hamlin Iron Spider uprights.

If a piano company noted for making poor instruments can sometimes turn one out that is good-it is most likely that someone took the time to pay attention and fit things properly. And most importantly they understood WHAT was important.

There is not much room for the appearance of "luck" as a factor in the musicality of a piano. The universe is not that random when it come to the organization of materials into the structure of a musical instrument. Luck can play a great role in the type of environment the piano is subject to during its life-but an expressive piano does not arise from taking a bag of piano parts and shaking them up with just the right motion to instill them to organize into a coherent and musically useful structure.

_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com

The worst pianos - that ones in Polish music scool (basic and secondary). Many of them are well known names with good reputation, but they are old (or veeeeery old) and their technical condition is disaster, all action and tune also sometimes is wrong.That's on what young polish pianist are learning playing Chopin...

This is reality from pracice rooms.On the other side - in the concert halls there are often brand new Steinways, Kawais Yamahas etc (maybe not concert grands, but at least kind of a medium grand) and... children and learning teenagers cannot play on them, only once or twice a year, before the exams and on exam itself.

In the result, people are learning on crap, while piano in condition as it should be for fast and appropriate learning, is being non used by most of the time.

And, in fact most of the soviet union pianos were crappy, however there were Petrofs and August Forsters, which we can name as ok pianos.

the whitney spinet. dad thought he was getting a good deal when the dealer threw in a hammond organ on the deal. you know that organ - the one with all the nifty musical instrument sounds and drum beats. that whitney was so bad i actually preferred playing the hammond. my desire to practice hit the nose dive listening to the sour notes emanating from that fine piece of piano ingenuity. what a way to kill a musical desire....

Speaking of bad pianos, has anyone ever played a "Steinway S" that he liked? I'm not sure why they have this model in their lineup.

These can be very nice in a good setting. Many small pianos struggle in the setting of a dealer's showroom - big, open and right next to larger, better instruments. I do think other makers are doing better at addressing value and performance in a small grand, but I agree with Plowboy that it's pretty rough to even mention a nice piano like that here.

You won't find me including this piano on my list. This was an instrument designed for students, yes. But it was made to function musically and actually gave a nice performance, especially when well maintained.

They sold retail in 1960 for well under $200.00.

Of course, they sold for far less than most other brands, but they stopped manufacturing in 1960, so the youngest Lester spinet is still 53 years old. Frankly, they weren't built to be used past 25 to 3 years.

For years I had a Betsey Ross Spinet that my mom learned on when she was little, and my sister and I learned on also. It was a great little piano! Sounded surprisingly good for what it was. When I replaced the spinet with a U3 I could not bear to part with it due to it sentimental value. So my neighbor took it in and she plays it. Win win. And I can still visit it anytime. When my sons grow up and move out, one of them can have it and it will stay in the family. My mom died way too young but I keep her memory alive by playing pieces that remind me of her. Oh, now I need a tissue.

I have a Estonia 190 coming on Friday! But I'll always think of the Betsey Ross Spinet as one of the BEST.