When I was a little kid mom used to tell me: "It's already 18:00, go and do your prayer. You need to pray to get peace and prosperity in your life..."

However, while picking up my days I started having a different approach at this thing which is called religion. What is the meaning of religion? Does God exist? 24 years of age right now and I've been an atheist for more than half of my life. The God Delusion is a book by British biologist Richard Dawkins, holder of the Charles Simonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford.

In his book, Dawkins contends that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that belief in God qualifies as a delusion, which he defines as a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence. He is sympathetic to Robert Pirsig's observation that when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity and when many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

I should admit that I have not got the opportunity to go through his book but I've been really inspired by his beliefs and ideas when I watched him on BBC World some days ago. I come from a religious family as are an estimated 86% of the world's population. So, in this regard I belong to the minority group referred as non-religious. Still, I am firm on my beliefs and I would like to hear about your perceptions and beliefs in God and religion.

Last edited by Varun on Mon 4 Jan 2010 - 19:45; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : Update)

we r creatures n we believe dat some1 has created us so even if we ddnt believe in god, we r always in a trouble with the idea that ther cud b somebody who invented us!! believing in god, we can take off d responsibility of creating from our shoulders. we just acpt that god exist not to make the matter serious...oterwise we wud hv been intrigued wid d matter n doubted the existence of god.

we r civilised peeps and whether ppl hv gne in tribes and communities, they hv discovered that other ppl frm other tribes n societies r worshipping a superior power, something which is omni-present, which controls power, something that just came out of the void. They dd nt hv connection wid other societies n yet they worship something.

Even scientists believe in god when they come to a point where they cannot go any further. They believe that there could be interference of a supernatural power.

No god implies no fear of god...shame, moral boundaries , no fear of hurting others, no moral, ethical values in society. The inventing and worshipping god shapens our conscience. Ther is a constant watch out of evils...the more we pray, the more there is a purgation of evils so that we are encouraged to do good all the time. The absence of religion and moral cud hv led d human beings astray. Justice not done on earth, it will be done above. The belief that there is a divine justice wud help human beings frm getting involved in actions which wud hurt d feelings of others.

By believing in god, man rejects d material n adopt d spiritual. This is wat makes ppl conscious, more sensitive towards their acts. Be good and do good- clean sheet in case god exists- u'r judge in front of him. we always gain in thinking that god is goodness, ethics n morality.

Man needs n ideal to strive forward, he needs to feel wat his purpose on earth is. To attain perfection. if god has been invented, we must admit that by inventing god we invent perfection! God is d representation of the ideal perfection. Take d rite path towards perferction for d good of every1.Not inventing him simply represents the absence of reference for human beings. God is nt only perfection bt he is a reassuring presence. The concept of paradise n heaven doing so much good on earth..wher would we go in our afterlife?? we need to believe that we must do good to attain salvation n go to heaven..God provides an explanation of d unseen. Man is incapable of creating life...n science has failed to grasp d essence of life and god appears to fill d gap. If we had nt invented it then who wud hv filled d gap. Man cannot make stone, air or sun. Everything dat we cannot do, somebody else must hv done it.

Ppl has more fear and respect for the unknown. Ppl have d fear of god if they think of doing something wrng...However inventing god...has caused a lot of trouble in da world...The war of religions! In da past, we had many crusades where christians n muslims were fighting...many ppl were killed...if we had nt invented god thes probs wud nt hv arised...But who knows, mayB ther wud b other problems more serious than that trust upon us!!

we r creatures n we believe dat some1 has created us so even if we ddnt believe in god, we r always in a trouble with the idea that ther cud b somebody who invented us!! believing in god, we can take off d responsibility of creating from our shoulders. we just acpt that god exist not to make the matter serious...oterwise we wud hv been intrigued wid d matter n doubted the existence of god.

we r civilised peeps and whether ppl hv gne in tribes and communities, they hv discovered that other ppl frm other tribes n societies r worshipping a superior power, something which is omni-present, which controls power, something that just came out of the void. They dd nt hv connection wid other societies n yet they worship something.

Even scientists believe in god when they come to a point where they cannot go any further. They believe that there could be interference of a supernatural power.

No god implies no fear of god...shame, moral boundaries , no fear of hurting others, no moral, ethical values in society. The inventing and worshipping god shapens our conscience. Ther is a constant watch out of evils...the more we pray, the more there is a purgation of evils so that we are encouraged to do good all the time. The absence of religion and moral cud hv led d human beings astray. Justice not done on earth, it will be done above. The belief that there is a divine justice wud help human beings frm getting involved in actions which wud hurt d feelings of others.

By believing in god, man rejects d material n adopt d spiritual. This is wat makes ppl conscious, more sensitive towards their acts. Be good and do good- clean sheet in case god exists- u'r judge in front of him. we always gain in thinking that god is goodness, ethics n morality.

Man needs n ideal to strive forward, he needs to feel wat his purpose on earth is. To attain perfection. if god has been invented, we must admit that by inventing god we invent perfection! God is d representation of the ideal perfection. Take d rite path towards perferction for d good of every1.Not inventing him simply represents the absence of reference for human beings. God is nt only perfection bt he is a reassuring presence. The concept of paradise n heaven doing so much good on earth..wher would we go in our afterlife?? we need to believe that we must do good to attain salvation n go to heaven..God provides an explanation of d unseen. Man is incapable of creating life...n science has failed to grasp d essence of life and god appears to fill d gap. If we had nt invented it then who wud hv filled d gap. Man cannot make stone, air or sun. Everything dat we cannot do, somebody else must hv done it.

Ppl has more fear and respect for the unknown. Ppl have d fear of god if they think of doing something wrng...However inventing god...has caused a lot of trouble in da world...The war of religions! In da past, we had many crusades where christians n muslims were fighting...many ppl were killed...if we had nt invented god thes probs wud nt hv arised...But who knows, mayB ther wud b other problems more serious than that trust upon us!!

My much elaborated analysis based on Deesha's points...

Varun wrote:One of the most common arguments for the existence of God is the argument from design. It states that the complexity and interdependencies of nature can only be explained, if someone intelligent (i.e. God) designed it all.

This kind of argument is what atheists call a "God of the gaps" argument. That is, God resides in the gaps of our current knowledge. When people couldn't explain lightning, it was God who made it and when that gap in our knowledge disappeared God had to retreat from it. This has been a continuing theme throughout history where God has retreated from one gap after another as the light of science has illuminated them one by one.

This argument also places God in the shrinking gaps of the very well supported theory of evolution which explains the development of the species without the need of an intelligent designer, your supreme one, God. One very common version of the argument from design is the claim that the odds of the eye being created by chance are so huge that the possibility can be discounted.

This argument however misunderstands what evolution is. Evolution isn't just randomness. It's randomness with selection and evolution doesn't create things like the eye in one go. It's nearly 150 years since Darwin explained in "The Origin of Species" how the eye might have evolved. It could for example have started with a single cell that were sensitive to light which generation after generation increased in numbers and complexity and it is important not to forget that all our skin cells are sensitive to light. When we feel the sun burning our skin it's simply an invisible light which we can just feel. Furthermore, we have today observed creatures in nature with eyes of different complexity.

Theists are bound to believe that everything has a cause and from this assumption it is argued that the universe must have had a cause and that this cause is God. However, if everything has a cause then God must also have a cause and that cause must have a cause and so on infinitely. This is a conclusion that I think isn't palatable for any theist. If the theist, to counter this, claims that God is uncaused then he has contradicted the assumption on which the argument is based and has therefore invalidated it.

It is also often argued that since so many people today and throughout history have had religious experiences there must be surely something about it. To answer this one should consider that earlier in human history more or less everyone experienced the Earth as being flat. Today science can explain why they saw it this way, even though it isn't true. Similarly scientists today are starting to explain why people have religious experiences and even trigger them without involving God. So, when someone is trying to make a case for the existence of God based on the many religious experiences they could make an equally compelling/uncompelling argument that the Earth is flat.

It should be considered that religious experiences are dependent on the religion of the person having the experience which indicates that it's only a subjective experience generated by the person's own brain. This aspect will also often make the experiences mutually contradictory which in turn shows that they can't all be true and even if we accept them then it will be very hard to argue why we shouldn't also accept the very similar experiences of alien abductions, succubus visits, etc...

My curiosity is only about how far does your mind perceive things and in this case, it's about religion/God. I still can't figure out how can you idolize a non-proven existence (God) and why can't you give this place to your parents or someone who really amazes you and brings out the best of yourself?

Also, tell me, did you read this whole topic?

Last edited by Varun on Mon 15 Dec 2008 - 23:53; edited 1 time in total

This should be the first thing to do when you intend to post a reply in a particular topic and there have already been lots of ideas that have been brought forward and debated, which I think could have enlightened your mind prior to continuing this discussion. Please, do it.

Vhem YC has already turned a deaf ear on this debate as have lots of other theists, Deesha. Why do you want her to repeat the typical theist's assumptions?

It's the same story everytime... No proofs, no solid statements, no logic and moreover, they don't even want to bother reading the arguments brought forward. They are simply happy with their blind beliefs or better, religion/God is best kept as a taboo for them.

Loll that's what i call a debate.I agree with what you said Varun, that is

Varun wrote:Vhem YC has already turned a deaf ear on this debate as have lots of other theists, Deesha. Why do you want her to repeat the typical theist's assumptions?

It's the same story everytime... No proofs, no solid statements, no logic and moreover, they don't even want to bother reading the arguments brought forward. They are simply happy with their blind beliefs or better, religion/God is best kept as a taboo for them.

I don't understand; you approved Varun's statement about the no proof, no logic thing on god and you agree with Shanu when he says you deeply believe in god. How is that possible? You can't be in two boats at a time, Zit. Unless you have supernatural powers.

Since I've known Varun, he has always asked me why did I believe in God and where was the proof of its existence. I've tried to answer him many times but I could never give him any evidence, which eventually proved his logic about being an atheist. My mind was tormented by this quest because when he interrogated me, he also pointed his fingers at the 20 years I spent worshipping God.

I looked for an answer everywhere I could but nothing really backed the idea that God exists. I went all over the Ramayana and all those sacred books, I asked my mom (a firm believer of God), I questioned lots of other people, but in vain. Nothing actually helped. It was then that I started feeling that perhaps I'm making a mistake in having faith in God. Yet, as a devotee, I could not accept the thought that God doesn't exist. After all, for 20 years I've been taught by every person I met that God is here, he is omnipresent.

As my search went on, the feeling that God existed started disappearing. I had stopped doing prayers by myself and I started questioning myself about God. Does it exist? I continued looking for the answer here, there, everywhere. Meanwhile, Varun gave me the reasons why he doesn't believe in God and asked me to analyze the way religious people think and behave. They say atheists are immoral and they do not have a disciplined life. But what about the religious persons who are destroying the world little by little? What about the children being taught at a young age that they would attain heaven if they attack people with bombs and commit suicide at the same time? God is supposed to protect those innocent people from being killed for nothing; where is God at those moments? When I pondered upon what Varun said, I started seeing light at the end of the tunnel.

Moreover, at home, I get all sorts of problems because of my parents' orthodox and religious nature; their son should be priviledged for everything and their daughters should be kept imprisoned. Religion is supposed to teach the truth but I can't say how many times my parents lied to me saying they don't have money to give me for my everyday life when they have huge amounts kept in the bank.

On top of all are the hindu priests... I haven't seen one who does his job without taking money from the devotees. They are supposed to represent/teach hinduism, isn't it? So, should I pay to learn "my religion"?

Finally, one day I got my answer. Varun asked me to watch a documentary entitled The Root of All Evil. This programme answered all my questions on why I should not waste my time in doing prayers and all those things I used to do. I won't talk too much about it because you have to watch it to really understand it... In the meantime, any more questions?

Because when i was in primary school, i used to believe in god.But stopped doing so as i went in CPE.Since people used to say that if you study hard, then god helps you take a step forward.

Then i realised it was i that was doing the work alone since i worked at easy pace. That is i studied in school and did all my homework by myself, without anybody's help and i never took care to revise.

As CPE exams neared, i revised and passed with six A's. Meaning that the work was from me, god wasn't there.

I must also say that it was due to my father that i had revised, as he had made me sit in the kitchen in front of him and revise.And also i really liked to study all every subject except Maths.

On thing God is not there. Everything that one wants to achieve, depends on oneself's will power and determination.

Right Varun.One thing i don't understand is that why are there suicide bombings, how can one do so though these people are religious?Why is it present?Anyone who can give a quite clear or detailed information??