END boss. The final boss always gets retconned, revived, escapes, or otherwise raiders are only also-rans who help kill-stealing NPCs on their quest for vengeance.

Kel'thuzad - Still never destroyed his phylactery, even @ lv70
C'Thun (since Kel'thuzad was redacted) - actually killed by Med'an in the comics
Kil'jaeden - lolnope! Back through the portal he goes. And even if you don't count him, Akama and Maiev took the credit for Illidan.
Lich King - KS'd by Tirion and Shade of Terenas
Deathwing - KS'd by Thrall and Alexstrasza

So yeah, even if Garrosh dies, don't expect the raiders to be the ones who kill him. Kill credit will probably go to Vol'jin or Varian depending on which faction is raiding, and Blizzard will decide which version is canon later (likely Varian, since it seems Alliance characters are always present at the defeat of the end boss).

OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

When he says he wants the entire continent, he's not talking about resources. He's talking Horde dominance. That's why it's an extra benefit rather than the primary goal.

Not excatly. Of course he wants the continent, because he wants new lands for the orcs, not just resources. The situation will never change if the orcs reamin in Durotar, for him, the orcs need a new and rich land. In the end conquering Kalimdor doesn't mean nothing else than kicking the night elves by the continent, as they hold the most beautiful and blooming lands, and the humans of Theramore, in which he almost succeed, because they were the allies and supporters of them, and so an obstacle. And this is the whole reason for which, when Nazgrim said to him of Pandaria, he exploded in anger at the possibility that the Alliance could have reached it first, ready to opposing him again.

A trial would be appropiate for this new Thrall/Vol'jin Horde, even if they ended up killing him. But the game asks for a final boss where the players are needed. Not killing Garrosh (or fighting him until another character kills him) leaves an empty feeling to the raid.

Still, he IS a different kind of villain. He is not super-powerful or a threat to the world. He is dangerous because he uses dangerous artifacts/powers that he doesn't fully understand. But even if the final boss doesn't HAVE to be Garrosh directly, and even if it isn't, his actions deserve punishment. Also, while Blizzard usually leaves several loose ends, they also like to close the main expansion stories by killing the bad guy.

Illidan is dead, Kil'jaeden is alive. Arthas is dead, the Lich King is alive. Deathwing is dead, N'zoth is alive.

Garrosh can die. Garrosh should die. It fits for Garrosh to die. The game needs Garrosh to die, even if the story doesn't.

Doomhammer slaughtered Lothar by ambushing him with superior numbers, while Lothar was on a diplomatic mission, guess you never played that scenario. That was not a fight, but an execution. Today you see a big Statue of Lothar, who is the guy to honor as he fought to the death in that doomhamer ambush, in the burning steppes. Didn't see much Statues of Doomhammer, maybe point me to one.

Retconned, Lothar went down on a one-on-one battle with Doomhammer.

WC2 maps weren't the best storytelling model. Heck, we had to assault the Blackrock Mountain by sea, from south, on the game.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 08:13 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Dreknar20

Being the Overlord that led the Warsong Offesnive hardly counts as doing nothing

Tell me what he done to gain the title of Overlord and what he done during his time as Overlord. And no, what the others did from him doesn't count.

Originally Posted by Dreknar20

They both waged wars of conquest against the Alliance and they both used ruthless tactics, seems similar to me

Not excatly. Of course he wants the continent, because he wants new lands for the orcs, not just resources. The situation will never change if the orcs reamin in Durotar, for him, the orcs need a new and rich land. In the end conquering Kalimdor doesn't mean nothing else than kicking the night elves by the continent, as they hold the most beautiful and blooming lands, and the humans of Theramore, in which he almost succeed, because they were the allies and supporters of them, and so an obstacle. And this is the whole reason for which, when Nazgrim said to him of Pandaria, he exploded in anger at the possibility that the Alliance could have reached it first, ready to opposing him again.

"For I believe in my heart that it is not our fate to bow and scrape and sue for peace before the Alliance. It is
our right to dominate and control this land of Kalimdor. It is ours, and we will claim it as such!”

"“You respond to this as if the conquest of Theramore were the goal. I tell you now, it is only the
beginning! I do not speak solely of destroying the human foothold in Kalimdor. I speak also, and even more
vigorously, of the night elves. Let them flee to the Eastern Kingdoms as we crush their cities and take their
resources!”

"The night elves have lived here long enough. Let them now linger only as a bad
memory. It is the Horde’s hour to reign on this continent, and reign we shall!"

“The night elves will be gone; the Alliance will be afraid to attack; and Kalimdor will belong to the
Horde. Those will be the consequences, elder.”

These are all from page 19-20 of Tides of War. While it's certainly true that it's not purely for domination... it's rather obvious that's the primary goal. All of his talk has one thing in common: Horde dominance. It's not just about resources or land, it's about proving that the Horde is superior.

Not stable? If it wasn't for Gul'dan's betrayal Azeroth would be 100% Horde right now. People are quick to dismiss the Old Horde as savages and idiots, but they actually got very close to the total annihilation of the Alliance. Something the new Horde can't begin to imagine.

When you put it like that, the new Horde is quite incompetent.

Comparing the New Horde with the Old one it's silly by the basic. The Old Horde was nothing more than an unstoppable war machine created with the sole purpose of destroy anything and anyone, no wonder that was so powerful.
They were just a bunch a addicted monsters, with an unbending leadership and a greedy and egoistic attitude, all the chieftains cared to fight one another for elevate their power in the Horde even more than actually fight for it. There was no union, they were just "united" by their common lust for brutality, blood and power.

Plus, they became so powerful because they decided to become the humble slaves and pets of the Burning Legion; they were nothing more than scroungers that defeated an enemy and conquered a world, they had to find a new enemy and a new world for just not destroying themselves, prey of their bloodlust. They were like the Scourge, but with minds and functioning brains, and this is ironically the reason for which they failed to defeat the humans in the end, because of their personal and egoistical goals.

The New Horde indeed is not that powerful because they didn't give themselves to any demon for obtaining awesome powers, they are simply as the Alliance was and is, but with a different mindset of course.

If that's the case, what did Thrall do to become Warchief? Bugger all, he was just an important orc standing around when Doomhammer died.

Not even close. A well known gladiator that was looking for supporting from whatever orcish clan was around (Frostwolves and Warsong) and later defeated an old orc that insulted Thrall and the Frostwolves. That old orc was Doomhammer.

Doomhammer was the one that brought the plan, but Thrall was the one that brought the strenght and the numbers. He was already Doomhammer's second-in-command.

Not even close. A well known gladiator that was looking for supporting from whatever orcish clan was around (Frostwolves and Warsong) and later defeated an old orc that insulted Thrall and the Frostwolves. That old orc was Doomhammer.

Doomhammer was the one that brought the plan, but Thrall was the one that brought the strenght and the numbers. He was already Doomhammer's second-in-command.

Garrosh became Overlord because he was Grom's son, that's it.

Thrall was only well known as a gladiator to humans. The orcs didn't know about it at the time.

Garrosh earned his place as overlord during the Northrend campaign, argue what you saw in quests all you want. Various books and that have said he is a very skilled warrior and tactician so that's the way it is.

These are all from page 19-20 of Tides of War. While it's certainly true that it's not purely for domination... it's rather obvious that's the primary goal. All of his talk has one thing in common: Horde dominance. It's not just about resources or land, it's about proving that the Horde is superior.

Dominion means little else than just submit the Alliance and conquer the lands they hold. All that you quoted is the desire to corner them in their lands, in the Eastern, and be sure that they will never try to threatening the orcs if they are crushed with no spirit or courage to counter-attack.

Thrall was only well known as a gladiator to humans. The orcs didn't know about it at the time.

Garrosh earned his place as overlord during the Northrend campaign, argue what you saw in quests all you want. Various books and that have said he is a very skilled warrior and tactician so that's the way it is.

Everything else suggests he isnt that great of a warrior. Lets be honest, in duels he is 0-2, Thrall WOULD have dropped him and Carine WAS dropping him with poison turning the tide.

Originally Posted by Xarim

It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

Thrall was only well known as a gladiator to humans. The orcs didn't know about it at the time.

Doomhammer did.

Originally Posted by gypsybob

Garrosh earned his place as overlord during the Northrend campaign, argue what you saw in quests all you want. Various books and that have said he is a very skilled warrior and tactician so that's the way it is.

Wrong, Garrosh was given the position of Overlord just because he was Grom's son. That's the point. He had absolutely no Horde background before Thrall found him in Nagrand. And even in Nagrand it was Saurfang Junior that done all the work.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 08:52 PM ----------

Originally Posted by bledgor

Everything else suggests he isnt that great of a warrior. Lets be honest, in duels he is 0-2, Thrall WOULD have dropped him and Carine WAS dropping him with poison turning the tide.

You did brought a good point. Besides Cairne, that we all know what happened, did Garrosh ever won a duel against a major or even minor character?

Everything else suggests he isnt that great of a warrior. Lets be honest, in duels he is 0-2, Thrall WOULD have dropped him and Carine WAS dropping him with poison turning the tide.

True, but Thrall and Cairne were the greatest warriors of the Horde. Fighting in a battle, Garrosh is a greatly talented fighter.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 08:56 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Tauror

Doomhammer did.

Wrong, Garrosh was given the position of Overlord just because he was Grom's son. That's the point. He had absolutely no Horde background before Thrall found him in Nagrand. And even in Nagrand it was Saurfang Junior that done all the work.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 08:52 PM ----------

You did brought a good point. Besides Cairne, that we all know what happened, did Garrosh ever won a duel against a major or even minor character?

He was a high ranking orc already, he was the chieftan of the Warsong Clan in Nagrand and before he was made Overlord. He justified his promotion with his success in Northrend.

Tell me what he done to gain the title of Overlord and what he done during his time as Overlord. And no, what the others did from him doesn't count..

Well according to Metzen Garrosh was given the titel because Thrall was all "hey you seem like a confident guy, why dont you lead my armies"

What has he done? He established Horde footholds throughout Northrend and eventually pushed to the gates of Icecrown. What others did? You mean the players? If thats the case all NPCs everywhere are just as much of failures as Garrosh.

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Yeah so he can drop to the ground and scream for help after he gets stabbed by a random Rogue.. No thanks. If he get's Warchief I'm done with the Horde for good.

On Topic, I hope for Exile or imprisonment, death is so over done and I would love to have a possible reoccurring Villain, eve n if he runs away and starts his own Dark Horde,make him a reoccurring Mini Raid Boss, he can be the new troll Raid every expansion.

Dominion means little else than just submit the Alliance and conquer the lands they hold. All that you quoted is the desire to corner them in their lands, in the Eastern, and be sure that they will never try to threatening the orcs if they are crushed with no spirit or courage to counter-attack.

pretty much the rule of thumb dealing with your enemies/rivals
You want them to be as weak and pathetic as possible so that when push comes to shove, you can kick their ass

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 08:00 PM ----------

Originally Posted by gypsybob

True, but Thrall and Cairne were the greatest warriors of the Horde. Fighting in a battle, Garrosh is a greatly talented fighter..

Cairne himself described Garrosh as a "striking figure of orcish power, musucalr and proud"
Even when trying to kill him he had a moment of guilt over how Garrosh would be a loss to the Horde "as a fine warrior if nothing else"

Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-05-19 at 08:00 PM.

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

You did brought a good point. Besides Cairne, that we all know what happened, did Garrosh ever won a duel against a major or even minor character?

I think there is only the suggestion in Tides of War that he "held his ground" against Varian this time, compared to Ashenvale, maybe even having the upper hand, but the duel was interrupted again, excatly like in Wolfheart.

My guess is that actually Garrosh is a pretty powerful warrior, still he wasn't in Wotlk/Shattering because he was inexperienced, compared to veterans like Thrall and Cairne.

If that's the case, what did Thrall do to become Warchief? Bugger all, he was just an important orc standing around when Doomhammer died.

No. Thrall personally lead the assault that took out Blackmoore after Doomhammer was killed, from the front. He then led his clan from the front, personally negotiated with other faction leaders to form alliances, and faced a Pit Lord in personal combat. Not to mention he spearheaded the assault on Undercity.

Don't pull shit like that if you're going to be ignorant of the facts. Thrall took leadership because of his ability, and was the Orc that formed the new Horde. Garrosh got leadership because of his father's name, and has been busy destroying the new Horde and reducing it to an Orcs Only shadow of the old Horde.