November 03, 2005

The men were questioned and then were not allowed to return to their seats, but were instead assigned to seats in another section. Three guards stood near them, and escorted them to their cars when they left the stadium.

you had a group of gentlemen gathering in an area not normally used by the public right near the main air intake duct for the stadium, and a food preparation facility," Siegel said. "It was where they were, not what they were doing." If they were punk kids I'm sure they would have been told to move along not nessecarily detianed and questioned. It seems to me they were in the wrong place at the wrong time but the situation escalated because they were Muslim and Bushy was in attendence. What happened at that Packers game was more disruptive and much funnier.

If nothing is done with these guys and something happens, we'll have peaople asking, why wasnt something done? The Securtiy people are caught between a rock and a hard place. Its their job to keep the area safe and there are expected to do it in a respectful manner. If you think about it, this really isnt news. Just people doing their job.

Soft targets are near the top of the list, so I don't really mind. The ACLU probably disagrees, and I usually agree with them, but just imagine if a stadium was levelled or everyone in attendance was poisoned, or whatever else that scares you to the bone (I don't mean to be doing the administration's fear-attack for them, but come on) happened live on national television? Racist? Maybe. How else do you profile Muslim extremists? Just remember a town over is where 9/11 "pilots" lived for years. And praying at a football game? That would worry me. Sorry, perhaps its my ignorance, but it would make me a bit uncomfortable. The US has pissed off a large portion of the world's population along Christian/Muslim lines. These are just the facts of life right now. And the "we do not profile" comment is PR BS. Of course you profile. It would be unwise not to do so. aside: damn I sound like someone who I would've considered a scare-monger a few years ago.

Well, the 9/11 pilots did everything they could to blend in - adopting Western hairstyles, shaving off their beards, etc. They would have looked like a bunch of punk kids. Indeed, most security guards would probably have been hard pressed to identify which ethnicity they were if they just showed up dressed in plain old football fan wear. Next, if security had gone up to them and just said "move on folks - this is a restricted area" and then kept an eye on them, would anyone really have been less safe? They were loitering in an area that probably wasn't marked "no loitering." A polite request by security to move from that location would have solved the perceived problem without offending anybody. Anyone, the problem with profiling is that it can be fooled. If you know what profile a guard is looking for, it is a simple matter to dress and behave in a way that does not match that profile. Detaining people who are "obviously" Muslim might make some people feel better, but it will not stop the next attack or event.

And praying at a football game? That would worry me. Sorry, perhaps its my ignorance, but it would make me a bit uncomfortable. I'm afraid it is ignorance. Observant Muslims pray five times daily, regardless of their location. That's one of the five pillars of Islam.

Our whole system of security in this country has this problem. It has difficulty predicting problems and instead responds to them. If it was an area that needed to be secured because of the air duct, then it should have been secured BEFORE Muslims happened to be in the area.

There is no need to pray at a football game, unless of course someone has died or been injured. So Muslims' pray 5 times a day, so what? A football game is around 4 hours long that leaves them 20 more hours to get the rest of their "required" prayer in somewhere else. Yes, this is a free country and you should be able to pray where you want, however these men know exactly what they were doing by causing a seen at the game. It's common sense and there is a time and place for everything, unfortunatetly based on the events going on in the world today praying at a football game is not one of them.

I understand it is an important tenet of the Muslim faith, but it is still unsettling in a public place. Just being honest. Especially when faith is used as a justification for violence. The correlation exists. Sorry. Profiling isn't perfect, but it is fundamental in security/law enforcement. I don't like it. I don't agree with it from a universally ethical viewpoint. But it seems to have a decent success rate. Otherwise, it wouldn't be used. bperk, that's an excellent point. Proactivity doesn't seem to be in our vocabulary. It really isn't in many people's vocabulary though. Wish it was.

lil brown bat, your not suggesting that they be allowed to pray whenever and wherever they see fit are you? What about in a public school? Seems to me that we should be upset about them trying to convert 60,000 people in a public place! I don't take my kids to a football game to watch people pray, unless it's to Jesus when the home team needs to score! (Just kidding around...please don't destroy me)

There is no need to pray at a football game, unless of course someone has died or been injured. I understand it is an important tenet of the Muslim faith, but it is still unsettling in a public place. Just being honest. Especially when faith is used as a justification for violence. The correlation exists. Sorry. It is important to remember that this is New York (or New Jersey, but still). There are tons of different religions and religious rituals that are a regular part of life there. I worked in a building where the bathroom was off-limits during a part of the day because there was a cleaning shoes ritual there. You don't have to understand, but if you live there every day, you get used to it. And, these things are not some unusual or suspicious occurrence or sight.

bburrell33212121 I believe (and please correct me) that Islamic prayers are somewhat schedueld. The afternoon prayer happened to be close to half-time I guess. I don't think the problem is the praying but where they were praying.

Those prayers are tightly scheduled during the day. You stop what you're doing and do your prayers. It's just how it is. Maybe there should be a place in the stadium for this stuff, where Muslims can go and worship without persecution. I can't see the problem going away, and it would be a great contrast to the profiling, which I'm guessing isn't going to go away neither. It wouldn't be a perfect solution, but -- why not? A room, maybe one at either end of the stadium, people would know in advance when the prayer times were and they could be monitored accordingly if people felt paranoid about it... I don't know. Also, it would be just as unsettling if a bunch of people started spontaneously and publicly praying to Jesus too. When I see people do that before, during and after every football game, especially in the Bible Belt, it creeps me out to no end. And it really does need to be repeated that Muslims have no monopoly whatsoever on religious fanaticism, open evangelism, intolerance or terrorism.

Stupid. Inexcusable. Racist. Counter-productive. Come on people! Are we going insane in this country or what? Is it really racist? Aren't there white muslims? The only reason this is blown out of proportion is because of their ethnicity. I mean seriously, if they were just some punk kids and they did detain them, do you really think that it would even be a story that you would hear about? I applaude the security officers that were working there that day. They did their job. I think there are a lot of people that need to grow up and stop trying to blame everything on race and realize that most of the problem is the media blowing things out of proportion.

Garfield I'm with you. A few years ago I would have denounced your reasoning as alarmist and over the top, but yeah, I'm going to be concerned when I see a group of Muslim men praying whether it's a restricted area or not. Especially on a day when the ex-president is there. Of course I'd be worried to see any group of religous people praying together at a football game. It's just never a good sign.

designated prayer areas sounds like a brilliant idea. And it really does need to be repeated that Muslims have no monopoly whatsoever on religious fanaticism, open evangelism, intolerance or terrorism /repeated..again.

Whether or not they were in prayer shouldnt be an issue. Prayer is a major part of most religions. If a person wants to pray in public that should be allowed. The question here if it was there was racism involved. From what I have read, it sound like security was doint their jobs. In today's world it is something that needs to be done to keep us save.

The US has pissed off a large portion of the world's population along Christian/Muslim lines. These are just the facts of life right now. How provincial. The US doesn't have to do anything to piss off people that are already fanatic in their hate of anything western and christian, and have been LONG before the iraqi war. And don't start with me, I don't support the war in iraq or the bush administration. At least they got to stay and watch the game instead of being arrested and sent to secret prisons overseas.

ANyone seen or heard anything on the Muslim "youth" that committed suicide at a college football game, ( Oklahoma, or Missouri, I think) but blowing himself up in the parking lot at halftime? Local radio talkshow coverage here in Chicago, but not much else. Yeah, just move along.

designated prayer areas sounds like a brilliant idea. Are you kidding me?! What's next a designated naked area for the nudist, a designated sex area for the nymphos? I mean come on! If you start making designated areas for one reason, you better be prepared for others. Someone is going to throw a hissy fit so they can get their special area! Suck it up! A stadium is a designated area for people to go and watch sports, nothing more.

grabofsky, put those straw men away. (I tend to be able to put off my nudism or screwing until I'm at least out of the stadium, but maybe I'm in the minority. Prayer times aren't negotiable that way. Way to draw an uneven parallel, pal.) Stadiums are there to bring the paying public together to watch sports. They don't have to be anything more. But if you can make the clientele a little more comfortable by giving them luxuries like Men's & Women's bathrooms, beer & snack concessions, and other designations for the things people tend to have to do on a Sunday afternoon during the game, then you come off as a nicer host, which results in more goodwill between ownership and fans, and maybe (just as a side effect) fewer people trying to blow us up.

Oh, and volfire, google news returns nothing, even locally, about such an event as you described. If someone died in a parking lot at a college football game for any reason, even of boredom, it would make the newswires. (Not to mention that no group has a monopoly on suicide either.)

THAT"S IT!!! So now can we go back to the just move along theory? Do'nt people wear, sometimes unusually bulky clothing at football games anyway? If one was that devout a Muslim, why spend your money on something so western cultured as a football game? Especially when you knew it would cut into your praying time? If I'm not mistaken, their religion dictates, times and places, one of which includes privacy. If kids need to go into the bathroom at school, I don't see how a football stadium could even remotely qualify.

I dont have any comments on whether race was involved or they thought they were terrorists or whatever people are thinking. But I have this. I went to that game, and i can assure that there were at least about 5 or 6 security guys doing their jobs, so im gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they all did their jobs. I was patted down before entering the game as if i was boarding an airplane, and inside the stadium, saw 2 parties get ejected in my own section alone...one of them a father and son sitting next to me that i didnt see do anything to deserve it (i was only watching the game on the field). but anyways, i dont think it was the security people not doing thier jobs. if they looked suspicious, i think just a simple polite question would have done the trick. it cant take too long to pray, i dont think....if they were still there in like a half hour....then i might raise the eyebrows, but you cant assume anything based on first sight. and if the area was a problem, they could have been told to take it somewhere else. i guess i think that if race or religion was involved, based on the security people i encountered that day, they probably would not have been allowed into the stadium to begin with.

If one was that devout a Muslim, why spend your money on something so western cultured as a football game? I don't see how being a Muslim is incompatible with attending sporting events such as American football. If I'm not mistaken, their religion dictates, times and places, one of which includes privacy. I'm sorry, but you are partially mistaken. The only hard and fast rules of prayer are the times of day, that you perform the ablution (even then there are several ways of doing this) and how you perform them. You also have to recite some verses from the Qu'ran, in Arabic, but you can add even more things to the prayer in any language you want. Like, "Please God, let the G-men totally dominate this game!" < anecdotal evidence> A few years ago I saw a picture of a group of men praying in a mosque in Buffalo and one of the men was wearing a Sabres jersey. It was somewhere online, but I can't find it again. < / anecdotal evidence>>>

If one was that devout a Muslim, why spend your money on something so western cultured as a football game? i don't think all Muslims hate western culture despite the beliefes of most of my fellow country men. A good friend of mine is from Afghanistan and loves baseball, Dave Matthews, plays guitar in a rock band. What about in a public school? Seems to me that we should be upset about them trying to convert 60,000 people in a public place! These guys just picked the wrong place to pray. This is different from the school prayer issue because they are just observing there own religion not pushing on anyone else.

Thank you praying Islamists for once again being able to illustrate the unmitigated bullshit that is American Security policy. No such thing as safe airports, stadiums, streets, appliances and plumbing - not unless you close them to the public. Too much access. Besides; stadium personnel are a little too ill-equipped to deal with this kind of thing, not to mention the fact that most sane people wouldn't want them as the last line of defense anyway. Fuck it - you wanna be 100% safe? Don't leave your house. Oops - see, still doesn't work - most people actually die in their homes. The rest of it is called life and this paranoid delusion that thousands of fanatical motivated and infiltrated people are trying to kill YOU - well - whaddya going to do? Eat at Wendy's and watch Oprah for the rest of your life? Shoot people who frighten you with their strange customs? Close the borders and accept a Facist regime? You can't have everything. I say let the ones who clothes and behaviour shout I'M A MUSLIM go about their business. They're not the ones to be worried about anyway.

You know, I disagree with the way this was handled. I don't have any problem whatsoever with security checking on what these guys were doing, but hauling them off for questioning and making them sit somewhere else -- I don't get that. If the troopers were satisfied there was no wrongdoing, this smacks of being illegally detained. Having said that ... And it really does need to be repeated that Muslims have no monopoly whatsoever on religious fanaticism, open evangelism, intolerance or terrorism. All those who remember the last time a group of Quakers, Mormons or Southern Baptists blew something up in or declared war on the United States, please raise your hand. And what do open evangelism or intolerance have to do with this? I'm just as openly annoyed by Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door as anyone, but at last check they hadn't taken me captive and beheaded me. Yeah, yeah, over the top ... but if five traditionally garbed Muslims and five traditionally garbed Hasidic Jews were standing side-by-side and someone said there was a security threat ... who would you grab first?

What does intolerance have to do with this? Are you serious? Are you even reading what you're typing? Alright. Mormons were still killing off the locals in Utah long after the rest of the Wild West was no longer wild. And next time you're in Toronto, walk along Ossington Avenue any afternoon and see how many Mormons physically block your way and get up in your face waving bibles. Southern Baptists? Seriously? The most openly racist people in the US, 175 years running? (You got me on Quakers. I'll give you that. The worst any Quaker ever did was break up a marriage on Six Feet Under.) The Muslims at that football game, unless I missed a paragraph somewhere, weren't beheading anybody either. Praying is not beheading. And it's not Muslims shooting up abortion clinics, high schools, federal buildings or gay bars all over this fine land, last I checked. (And squealy, there's not much prayer at sports events, but you do have Nazis working openly there, so it's kind of a tradeoff.)

When I see people do that before, during and after every football game, especially in the Bible Belt, it creeps me out to no end. But chico, being 'creeped out' isn't the same as being scared. Living in the south I've seen plenty of prayers after football games. I've never had the fear it would lead to anything but prayer. I'm not saying it's right, or that feeling scared was warranted, but if it scared people it doesn't really compare to you being creeped out. (not to mention I've been to games with prayer in california and new hamshire; while more prevalent in the south it isn't unknown elsewhere). It also appears that you're combining the people praying at football games with the abortion bombing crowd. That's no different than people taking muslim extremists and labeling the entire religion. I promise there is little crossover. I'm not a religious person, but I promise you that though they have their faults, as everyone does, the abortion bombers are a minor, extreme portion of the group that creeps you out at football games. To link those people with abortion bombers is unfair. That said, why is everyone suddenly scared of muslim prayer? Did the 9/11 bombers have a group prayer before boarding the plane? I don't think so. Is there any precedent of muslim groups having a public prayer before continuing to violence? Seems as if they were actually planning anything the prayer would have come before, and at the stadium no mingling would have occurred

All those who remember the last time a group of Quakers, Mormons or Southern Baptists blew something up in or declared war on the United States, please raise your hand. The KKK gets really pissed when they're not noticed.

It appears a few people in this thread are combining the people praying at football games with the flying planes into buildings crowd. Gary, I said that to make the exact point you iterated. It's no less absurd. And I agree completely with your last question.

(squealy: is the National Front still throwing bananas at the black players and making jungle noises whenever they touch the ball? I saw a story last week on Thierry Henry's anti-racism foundation that made it sound like things were still pretty harsh.)

that was a while ago chico, though I'm sure isolated incidents of this kind of abuse do still occur in English footy. That's more a continental European kinda thing now. Some of our black international and club players have had problems in places as far apart as Spain and various ex-soviet breakaway and then split up states (as I like to call them because I can't remember the names).

I find it surprising that no one has mentioned that there is indeed a LOT of praying at these games by the fans AND the players. So what if some Muslims were praying too? The fact is they were in a suspicious place. This is much ado about nothing. I mean, what's the problem here? Some cops saw something suspicious and followed up on it. Look people, EVERYBODY profiles. White people drive through the ghetto and they're profiling everyone they see. Native Americans on a reservation see a white guy buy a trinket at a gift shop and profile. Working class folks see a 16 year old in a Camaro pass them and profile. NYC residents see Muslims praying under an air duct and profile. As long as there was a reason for what they did (which the cops gave one), what the problem is? Sigh...this subject just HAD to get me to subscribe to this place, now I'll probably never leave these boards...

I know Buffalo all too well, and he's so right. I went to school in Roch-cha-cha, a city that wouldn't see the Sun for weeks on end. Trips to Buffalo made me thankful for what I had. All those who remember the last time a group of Quakers, Mormons or Southern Baptists blew something up Holmes, if you can point me to the last time a Quaker even got excited, I'll be impressed. While the Last Shaker probably didn't have plans for a bomb commited to memory, fanaticism is frightening regardless of brand name. I don't think splitting hairs will undermine that point.

"Sigh...this subject just HAD to get me to subscribe to this place, now I'll probably never leave these boards..." Same here, Masked.........sigh again TBH.......LOL LOL LOL! "What happened at that Packers game was more disruptive and much funnier." Ya got that right, Hater 187. It was all anyone could talk about up here in Green Bay. And you can depend on the fact that EVERYONE had their own special speculation on what occured. I can't get this to italicize without it going into some strange page. Any suggestions?

I almost forgot to compliment you all on this discussion..... this is THE most intelligent discussion I have happened upon out of all of the discussions I've checked out on headlines that interest me. There is an infinite amount of garbage out there. Thank you!

Mormons were still killing off the locals in Utah long after the rest of the Wild West was no longer wild. Is this happening now? How is it relevant to current questions of security? And next time you're in Toronto, walk along Ossington Avenue any afternoon and see how many Mormons physically block your way and get up in your face waving bibles. Are they exploding Bibles? Anyone threatening to kill me and destroy my way of life? Is there a Mormon jihad I missed out there? You're talking about annoyances, Weedy. I'm talking about mass murder. Southern Baptists? Seriously? The most openly racist people in the US, 175 years running? I've always found snotty, well-to-do Catholics and Protestants to be just as racist. Ever heard of white flight? See a lot of WASPs marry African-Americans? Fuck it - you wanna be 100% safe? Don't leave your house. Oops - see, still doesn't work - most people actually die in their homes. Ridiculous overstatement. No one will ever be 100% safe ... but they can be made to be much safer. Or are you advocating just throwing security to fuckall and let whatever might happen happen?

Is there a Mormon jihad I missed out there? Read up on the FLDS, the Church of Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. Start with this book. You might learn a thing or two about some of the secrets we've got hidden in the good old U S of A. Not all violent fundamentalism is widely reported in the news.

All those who remember the last time a group of Quakers, Mormons or Southern Baptists blew something up in or declared war on the United States, please raise your hand. When was the last abortion clinic bombing or arson by an extremist religious group? There have been hundreds since 1980 and at least five shootings of providers. There's also Eric Rudolph, whose bombing spree against abortion clinics, gay bars and the Atlanta Olympics was motivated by the religious Christian Identity sect and his proclaimed Catholic faith. He killed 3 and injured 150. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 in Oklahoma, motivated in part by the Branch Davidians cult raid on the same day two years earlier. Yeah, yeah, over the top ... but if five traditionally garbed Muslims and five traditionally garbed Hasidic Jews were standing side-by-side and someone said there was a security threat ... who would you grab first? This is no better than asking which group would be more suspicious -- five whites or five blacks? I'm disappointed that you would accept your own racial profiling rather than recognize that it's an unfair response. There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, including at least 1 million in the U.S. Suspecting them all because of the actions of a few hundred murderous extremists is as fair as judging all Catholics by Eric Rudolph.

What rcade said. And if you saw 5 traditionally garbed Hasidic Jews and 5 traditionally garbed Muslims standing side by side in a place like Hebron in the West Bank, you'd run from both. BTW, apropos of nothing - Darlington (a non league football team in England) are known as the Quakers. Apparently some of their supporters are known to chant 'Quaker aggro, Quaker aggro!' at opposition fans. What they mean by this is a good question.

I asked this before: What would have been the net security difference if the security officers had just asked them to move on and then had quietly kept an eye on them? Possible Threat: Neutralized Negative publicity: Neutralized Is there a drawback to this solution?

Sounds like it would work to me. People like to bring up the "what if they were terrorists?" scenario as justification for the actions of security officials in incidents like this. But if we're going to play with hypotheticals, why isn't this one just as valid -- what if security officials ignored a real threat while they were obsessing over innocent Muslims?

what if security officials ignored a real threat while they were obsessing over innocent Muslims? You assume they were innocent; they were actually praying for Jesse Palmer to do a Bachelor sequel. Pure, undiluted evil.

What would have been the net security difference if the security officers had just asked them to move on and then had quietly kept an eye on them? That's exactly what they should have done. From the article: "You had 80,000 people there, Bush 41 was there, and you had a group of gentlemen gathering in an area not normally used by the public right near the main air intake duct for the stadium, and a food preparation facility," Siegel said. "It was where they were, not what they were doing." I have no problem in that situation with them keeping an eye on a group gathering in an off the track area. But that goes for anyone, white, black, muslim, catholic. The problem was where they were AND who they were, which the statement fails to say.

Just to clarify, I completely agree about the security guards handling this improperly. If you are suspicious, ask a couple questions. If everything seems innocent, be on your way, and if you'd like to keep a wary eye, do so. This was tantamount to illegal confinement. I'm disappointed that you would accept your own racial profiling rather than recognize that it's an unfair response. Unfair or not, if the guys threatening to blow things up are of one particular appearance or have one dominant characteristic, you would be an idiot not to view them suspiciously, wouldn't you? But if we're going to play with hypotheticals, why isn't this one just as valid -- what if security officials ignored a real threat while they were obsessing over innocent Muslims? What if security officials had stopped a threat? Would you be complaining about profiling then? If the 9/11 plot had been broken up before it succeeded, would you argue that they shouldn't have been stopped because of the detrimental effect to innocent Muslims? Suspecting them all because of the actions of a few hundred murderous extremists is as fair as judging all Catholics by Eric Rudolph. Source, please? Because the 9/11 Commission found that Al Queda trained between 70,000-120,000 terrorists. That might be high (and include all terrorists trained since 1979 in Afghanistan), but it appears at least 10,000-15,000 of them are around. They may not all live in the U.S., but they have relatively free access. And stop using Eric Rudolph and the extremist Christian movement as a parallel for Islamic terrorism. Your own source says a grand total of five people were killed in abortion-clinic violence between 1977 and 1994. Five. Yes, it's terrible and they ought to be rounded up and severly beaten -- and I bet the FBI has a profile they use to find them -- but comparing it to the current threat is misleading at best.