Is it really this hard to find a cabinetmaker. I keep getting guys that think they should be paid what some sports player makes and only wants to work 3 days a week. What is so hard about just coming to work and doing your job. Use to be maybe interview 3 people and you could find someone but now it like 20 just to find someone. I am open to any ideas if anyone has any and sorry I'm just venting.

Same thing here, I keep getting applicants who "took woodshop in high school" or "my grandfather had a woodshop and I watched him work as a kid". Then they say they'll maybe consider giving the woodworking thing a try if I start them out at $50k+ a year to catch boards coming out of a machine. Oh and they want free insurance for their 4 kids and girlfriend, free vacations, and maybe throw in some free 401k money and profit sharing.

You need to look to imigrant labor. They work hard, they're respectful, they're grateful, they're loyal. I have three caucasian-american employees, 3 mexican-american employees and 1 russian-american employee. The caucasian-americans are what's left after perhaps 30 or 40 hire and fire tryouts over the last 15 years, and with the others I'm 4 for 4.

Pay has nothing to do with it, I pay them all well. In fact you have to be cautious with how you pay. The higher the wage, the slower they will get. Instead, use the perk of unlimited overtime to boost income levels, you'll keep the work ethic and you will both gain, them because of the increase in take home pay and you because you're getting product out the door. My crew works 50 hour weeks and always has, some work more. They all earn upper middle class incomes as a result. It also separates the workers from the slackers. I myself have always worked 50 to 60 hour weeks, I'm not interested in anyone who does not work hard. If you can't work from 6am to 4:30pm Monday through Friday, then you're not a good fit for my company. We're not rocket scientists, it's not my fault you didn't pay attention in school or weren't born into the same opportunity as others. But you can still make as much as most white collar workers and still have your weekends free, all you need to do is show up and work hard, and do it reliably.

I have no problem with who they are to hire someone, male, female , immigrant , etc. all I want is first show up and work and just have at least 3 years of experience or at least know how to work the tools .

When I started in this industry 30+ years ago , I as an American born boy was a minority in the shop I was in.
It was filled with Germans, Italians and Yugoslavs.
Today the main immigrant group in our shop is Polish.
I agree with the other poster about looking for immigrant labor.
Pinetree, you are right in my area and I see you have been advertising on Indeed I think. Maybe try the Polish newspaper.
After we had the first Polish guy years ago three others that followed after that were related to the first and another some of us had worked with at another shop.
BTW, we are a union shop in the same town as you.

There aren't a lot of cabinetmakers out there anymore. Most up and coming carpenters want to be framers or do remodeling. I run a shop somewhat in your area and the only applicants I ever get are older guys getting out of remodeling. I run a production environment and the older guys usually don't have the speed I need, So I end up having to train young guys that slack off or don't care. It's frustrating. I started as a framer, but I moved to cabinetry as soon as I could.
On another note..In my experience it is nearly impossible to join a union unless you know someone already in there. I get irritated when union guys say things like "If you want benefits, join the union." As if its as simple as filling out an application and handing them a great resume. The one time I did have a chance to join, the friend getting me in told me I would probably be off work more than on. So I passed.
Snaglpuss- Does that ring true with union cabinet shops?
PS. Sorry for ranting and going off topic

In our area if a union shop hires a cabinet maker that is not in the union they can join after 30 days.
You don't "join" and then have them find you a job.
If you find a union shop that will hire you you have to be allowed to join.
The other way in is an apprenticeship as I did some 30+ years ago.
My father , retired now, was also a union cabinet maker and would not let my go in by "buying a card" as they say. Journeymen back then had no respect for someone that didn't serve an apprenticeship and all the Europeans that I worked with had all been apprentices, some even had their "Masters" papers.
Real "Master" cabinet makers and had the papers to prove it. Although in the USA there is only "Journeyman" no such a concept as "Master" as far as the U.S.Department of Labor is concerned.

I think Union or non Union this industry is in sad shape for people. We need more training, job pricing needs to come up and I woul d say employee certification is in need no matter who it is. I think where we are snag is the only training center around and its union. We tried being Union but had some draw backs but don't want to get into that. I would love to have a list for cabinet shops that you could post reviews on employees or GC good or bad just like that Angie's list dose on contractors, but don't know if that's legal.

I am so small that I am unable to keep steady help. It would be awesome if there were a pool of skilled cabinet makers and installers to pull from during " The busy season " . I have seen lots of good help go just because I am not able to support a family mans wage year round.

Oh and if you are talking about real cabinet makers the answer is, very few. Most people who think they are cabinet makers these days are either self taught garage guys or those who have worked for large operations and probably only have the skill to press buttons and do basic assembly

The problem is in this country the "education" professionals are expecting everyone to go to college.
Trades people are looked down upon.
It is not just carpenter and cabinetmakers are in short supply the metalworking industry is also moaning that young people don't want to get into their industry.
Until "educators" realize that not everyone is cut out to go to college and that learning a trade is a legitimate alternative to college, nothing is going to change.
"Politically Correct" people also would cry discrimination if you were to track certain "protected" classes of people into trades, although they are constantly moaning about lack of jobs for their constituents.

I think Union or non Union this industry is in sad shape for people. We need more training, job pricing needs to come up and I woul d say employee certification is in need no matter who it is. I think where we are snag is the only training center around and its union. We tried being Union but had some draw backs but don't want to get into that. I would love to have a list for cabinet shops that you could post reviews on employees or GC good or bad just like that Angie's list dose on contractors, but don't know if that's legal.

This is True. Depending on the dinner party I go to, it may or may not be cool to be a cabinet maker lol. And college is pushed to a fault.
Here is a good for instance in regards to the lack of education/training available in this industry. I have been looking into cnc training courses for myself because I would like to own one someday. I do not live out in the sticks, and the nearest course in cnc tech for woodworking is almost 3 hours away from me. No online training and a list of prerequisites that would take a year or two to complete. Which is ok but you would think that in the huge county I live in there would be some cnc technology courses in woodworking. It would be nearly impossible for me to work and drive three hours three days a week to learn to be a cnc operator

Ok so let me throw this out to all of you. I know we have heard this over and over about wages. What is the wage a cabinetmaker should get paid. I check in the Dept. of labor under bench carpenter and the mean wage in my area (Northern Il) is from 16.00-17.00 per hour.So I would say that if you had a worker that could operate the equipment do assembly and do some layout he would fall into that mean pay area? Now I always get the guys that have done everything until the hit the shop floor then they have no clue even how to process rough lumber, etc.
Out of the last 5 guys I have come in 2 called back about 16.00 per hour to low for them, 1 did not show up, 1 emailed me at 2 in the morning on St Patty's day say he did not think this would work( we start at 7am) and 1 did not have a clue what a cabinet was.So am I low on this wage ? or is it just the guys that are out of work should be .

$17 hour is low compared to union cabinet maker for our area.
But at union scale a journeyman should be able to operate almost all non computerized machines, be able to read from prints, layout and cut their own jobs,
work up rough lumber, be able to produce a product ready for the finisher, be able to catch mistakes on drawings, do radius work, and be able to work with anything from veneer to Corian to paint grade mdf work.
Paul, with your products it is tough to compete against someone making similar stuff in the middle of nowhere, where $17 would be top wages. You are also competing with people who think they can get stuff that looks like yours at Ikea, Wallyworld, or Amazon and costs a third or less.
You are also competing for talented labor with shops that are doing commercial work and can afford to pay more for competent journeymen.
That being said you probably can produce a lot of your stuff or parts for it with guys that can't command union scale.
As one of the previous poster said looking to immigrant labor might be a way forward. A half a brain and a willingness to work can go a long way to being trainable to do basic stuff in a cabinet shop

Thats pretty rough pinetree. IT seems to me as if you may need to fish in a different pond so to speak. In my experience theres usually a reason when someone "hasnt had work in a while". I have had hiring experiences just like yours with all the lame excuses, but usually from teenagers and college aged adults. If these are grown men/women doing this then its likely they have a drug or alcohol problem.

I would try to find other industry professionals in your area and share with them your need for employees. We spent two decades looking for competent part timers. I still have a tough time but over the last 8 years I started to meet a lot of cabinet makers who had lost their shops in the recession. Through them I have been introduced to some quality people who i can hire from time to time

I agree snag that we are not close to a journeyman cabinetmaker scale of 26.00 plus bennies but also some of the Union shop have side shop in Wi,Ia ,Mexico an China which they need to do to compete with shop out in rual areas that can do the comercail projects here in the city because the Union GC don't have to use Union shop to make the product only to install it and most residential projects cost will not support us to pay a 40.00 hr scale with bennies. So I think that pay scale lets guys think that even if they are not Union they still should be paid that . I find sometimes throwing money at something atracks people that want it but are not worth it, but I may have to pay more to be in this area and hope I get someone to fit the bill. Thanks again all for your imput.

A man would have a really rough time raising a family on less than $40,000 per year. Especially if Northern IL means near Chicago. If they did any checking, they also see there will be nearly no career advancement. They could also remember the crash when all the shops reduced their workforce, and shops closed. I don't blame them one little bit, I wouldn't work as a cabinetmaker today either.

Exactly Rich C.! People with a little intelligence and common sense know this is a shrinking industry. When a prospective employee comes to a place of business and can tell that the owner isn't making any money... oh my, run!

Over the last couple of years I have been blown away by what I have seen supposedly "qualified tradesmen" do.

I had one guy undo a live water tap because the hole he drilled in the cupboard for it to slide through didn't quite fit. He was so blown away that water came out it took him about 60 seconds to start looking for a mains tap to shut it off.

When I questioned another one about why it was taking him so long to complete an install he said he was sick of turning the cabinets upside down to adjust the adjustable feet, sitting it down, testing it, flipping it over again to turn the legs. Didn't even dawn on him that he could slip his arm under and adjust the leg while cabinet was on ground.

Finally I had a guy who installed a galley kitchen with a freestanding "pod" of cabinets in between the rear kitchen wall and the island backwards. I mean he helped build it and set it up in the factory, had a set of plans on site and still managed that.

These are tradesman!!!! I'm not an old bloke but when I was learning the trade you worked hard, made mistakes, got your ass kicked, fixed it, learnt from it and moved on.

To burry our heads in the sand and say it should still BE that way is easy (and a little true) but would be a great diservice to the future of our industry.

They say we are entering the fourth industrial revolution. With automation we are getting to a point where even a small factory can be run with less and less skilled human input in the manufacturing phase and I think that is just the way of the future, We are tailoring and marketing our product to suit efficient and predictable manufacturing.

I have seen it spoken about a few times in the forums, how do we deal with gen Y? I am on the edge of gen X and gen Y and must admit I don't understand what makes gen Y tick. I try and try to see past the lackadaisical and entitled attitude to work out what motivates them but can't see what works in our industry that it built on patience and determination.

Rich, I agree with you that it is hard to raise a family with under 40k a year, but hate to burst your bubble that raising a family on 1 income has been long gone for a while. I said 16-17 per hr for a guy with min 3 years ,not to say I would not pay more for someone that could show us that they could be better. I have seen guys like chipboard described that say they have been in this for 20 years and that their talent. You should not be paid by the amount of time you have been in the trade but by what you know. For this industry shirking that is total false what is shrinking is the amount of trained skilled labor that is available. I had a guy last year that just left us that started with no professional experience and he had a degree in Environmental Science. He left for 2 reason as he wanted to make sure that he tried to work in the field that he got his degree in to make sure later in life he did not say I should have tried that and he need to make more money. They started him at 40k a year but he had 4 years of school that he went to . I think it comes down to needing more skilled labor and also not paying someone for what they don't know.

I've been thinking about these issues for a long time and we are all concerned but one suggestion on where to find new employees is through any woodworking schools as example College of the Redwoods has a major program and I know others exist through out the country.

I think the deal is for me and prolly some of you other shop owners I / we always wanted to do woodwork and had a burning desire to do so at least I did , I always knew that was what I wanted.
There are few young people nowadays
that have always wanted to be a woodworker , especially since the emphasis has been on computer and technology related industries , therefore eliminating the majority of available applicants from the employment market in general. Also perhaps the younger generations look at us older some more successful than others as worn out tradesmen that they do not want to become .

So I would say that most new hires you make are not someone who has a burning desire to do woodwork and such , more than likely they are someone who needs a job , but with no real conviction to be in the industry.
An average computer literate person can easily be trained to run a CNC with no woodworking experience so a different set of skills can be utilized in some shops.

the problem with hiring from places like college of the redwoods for what i have experienced.( I have two friends who went there who I would not hire) they want to be all "high end" about everything. they have no idea how to work in a production environment. They want high pay because of their education. I dont see that these college programs make an emphasis on teaching people how to work. While someone who comes out of one of these programs may be serious about wanting to do woodwork I could not afford someone who wants to make as much as I do while working almost half as fast.

We know the price surveys have shown to be all over the chart from high to low depending on your market . Wages should match up so to speak . The kid may need to relocate .

For young people many have no work experience yet whether they got a degree or not so it's hard to find a young person experienced in production .
Really it is up to us to train them , show them , teach them , to do things our way and what is expected of them .

My Boss told me having no production experience was a good thing , because
I had no preconceived ideas about how to do things . He sensed my desire to breathe sawdust and get splinters and it worked out .

I think that getting people from the schools would only work if your company needed actual cabinet makers not a production company or manufacture that uses cell type systems that all you need is machine operators and assemblers. If you are only a person or company that buys their doors drawers and assembles their boxes then you are more of a manufacture where all you need is an assembler not a cabinet maker companies like ours need cabinet makers and it has to be high end . If it's not high end there is no way you could make a living at it .

@ one point I did try to hire cabinet makers. I hire for attitude, not what they all will tell me about knowing how to do it all. Time spent in a trade has little to do with knowledge or ability. After attitude the ability to think determines their value.
A union shop closed and two of their guys came here looking for a job. After the nickel tour of the shop and our system both of them told me what things they would not do!

Yes Pinetree , I agree if your looking for cabinet makers . As the post title reads .
Did not think you were talking about factory workers in general .Some shops may not perform the levels of works that require cabinet makers that can handle truly custom stuff .

We have a local community college program that offers a two year certificate for cabinetmaking, boat building, carpentry etc. The cabinetmaking program was started about 30 years ago. All eight of the current instructors were personally trained by the original progenitor of the program.

This particular fellow apparently decided to teach because he could not make a living running his own professional shop. Academia seemed much more rewarding to him than entrepreneurship.

These eight apostles contain a very limited gene pool of ideas. The program is very successful at making people enjoy the program. This is understandable. Who wouldn't enjoy doing benchwork with someone sitting on the next bench over playing classical guitar?

The problem is that some of the students went to the school to get a career, i.e., they wanted to be able to make a living doing this. Nobody at the school knew anything about how to make a profit and none of the instructors gave a whit about profit. They didn't need to. They had a government job.

The students are given all year long to build a personal tool chest. This chest was supposed to represent a resume. When I asked a woman graduate from that school what they expected to earn upon graduation she said the instructors said to ask for $20 per hour.

I told her there would be no problem paying her at that rate but that she would have to be able to build that tool chest in 8 hours. I told her I didn't think I could sell it for more than about $400 and that would be how much she would have to generate in order for me to have $20 per hour to give her.

She gave me a look like a deer staring into headlights.

James Krenov was a great woodworker. Sam Maloof too. Take away the video or subsidy from California Dept of Education and they're just another guy toiling away in his garage like every other guy toiling away in his basement shop. There's a million talented woodworkers out there. The best ones have a wife working in the medical profession. These are the guys that can afford to make a really beautiful tool chest.

Pat, I have talk to some of the suppliers and sales people that sometimes know who could be looking to change to another shop or who got laid off of other shops being slow.
I really think there is a shortage for cabinetmakers as look at the Job listings on here ,there are a good amount of listings looking for help for cabinetmakers.Well i guess no matter where they come from i will just have to keep checking references and hope you get one that can do the work.

You didn't burst my bubble, this isn't news to anyone. "Rich, I agree with you that it is hard to raise a family with under 40k a year, but hate to burst your bubble that raising a family on 1 income has been long gone for a while."
But even two people making that $16/hour you want to pay are going to have a really rough time on the $66,560 they make before taxes. That takes into account the second person isn't working for minimum wage. Consider then, daycare, no benefits at those low wage jobs, 700+/month rent for a 3 bedroom, etc. How many years will it take for them to get a promotion? 3% raise a year goes away with inflation. Why have an education and training system in place to train people to have jobs that make them struggle through life?

I would say at 67 k a year its hard to make it
if you have kids. In a lot of cases around here the wife has insurance through her company if she works for a large company. Plus this dose not include the over time that is work sometimes or side jobs that can be done also. The problem is a lot of people only want to work 40 hrs a week and that fine but stop whining about how you can't make it. Myself and a lot of people i know did the over time and the side jobs to save so their kids had a chance to go to school or some of them got in the trade.

That's funny, I had a guy from the very same school having made the very same tool box apply here. We had virtually the same conversation. We are one of the lucky ones having positioned ourselves in a segment of the market, in an area of the country, that actually provides the opportunity for real cabinetmakers to make real cabinets. When this guy was shown around at the nature of the work being produced and the speed at which we produced it, he basically just shook his head and disqualified himself from the job. I felt for him, because in that moment he realized he'd wasted a year of his life paying someone else to teach him useless skills when he could have been getting paid to learn in a real environment.

To answer the original posters question, there are cabinetmakers left. I employ 3 that would probably be considered journeyman if I cared about such titles. I also employ a highly skilled finisher that was trained here, and 3 others that are very skilled in the specific tasks we ask them to perform every day, which is basically flawless woodworking but without the knowledge and responsibility of the "big picture". There are many, many shops like mine. But these guys don't migrate, they are painstakingly trained from scratch and we tend to hang on to them.

Mel, I have had 2 woman work for me and would hire one again in a heart beat. They work hard and pay attention to detail. I think the main thing is that I'm getting people that have maybe a year in a shop, have no experience at all or have problem of showing up, being late all the time or can't work with others.I did find one guy that has great references and emailed him yesterday and waiting for his response. We will see.

Here's the deal as I see it.
I'm a union trained cabinetmaker. Not a carpenter, a cabinetmaker. I've worked from Seattle to Philadelphia, but mostly in the Midwest. I don't own my own shop and don't want to. I started in the trade in 1999.
Since the crash, it has been ridiculously difficult to stay in this industry as a "hand", not owning a shop or striking out on my own. What is expected from a good bench hand now days seems excessive to me and the pay has gone down. I once made $23-25 per hour, now you are lucky to get $17 and that's if you prove yourself to be the Wayne Gretzky of cabinet shops - run the CNC, order material, deal with customers and contractors, make cut lists, know how to operate shapers (and other machinery that no one trains for anymore), drive the delivery truck, even know how to finish. My experience where I live is that if you can do all of that , under a deadline , making everything PERFECT, and keep a smile on your face ... you might make it through the next round of lay offs and keep your $17 an hour job. Not to mention that after 16 or 20 years of heavy lifting, breathing wood dust, and working in the summer heat, your body will be breaking down prematurely.
Hmmmm, I wonder why no milinneals are breaking down the door of cabinet shops screaming " TEACH ME , TEACH ME !!! "
I get the economic forces are more brutal than ever. One boss of mine put it this way - " I'm competing against factories in China with 12 year olds cranking out this stuff making 50 cents an hour" Maybe that's oversimplification? But it illustrates the point. You guys can't really afford to make this type of work attractive for anyone.
I just wanted to submit my perspective here, and I'm sure some of you owners will take exception, but this is just one guy's experience.
I'm registered to go back to school at a University next fall and with a wife and 3 kids am in the process of reinventing myself. I'm starting a second adulthood and hopefully will make better decisions about career and financial future.

Exwood, I agree with a lot of what has happen to you in the past but do you think the grass is greener on the other side?
Im guessing you are around late 30s maybe 40 and you're going back to school. That is great all power to you to get into another profession and to have student loans to pay back,4 years of school and then when you go to get a job there's a 25 year old that will work for 35k a year and put in 60 hrs a week because he's on salary.I don't mean to paint a bad picture and you may have a degree already but if you have that much training maybe more research of getting into a shop that won't do the layoffs and I know here in the Chicago area they still pay union cabinetmakers 26.00 and hr plus bennies. If you go non union it will be lower pay on some cases. Good luck

I feel your pain. I had a shop in Seattle in 1999. I still have the help wanted section from January 9, 2000 when there were 25 ads for cabinetmakers. I can remember waiting for an appointment to interview a candidate and saying to myself "If he is over 160lbs I'm going to hire him!".

Back then we were selling our cabinets for $1800 a box, unfinished, undelivered, uninstalled, drill your own handle holes. China wasn't even a blip on the radar back then.

That you should have to do more with less is not new information to your employer. You already know this.

As Pinetree said, maybe you should be looking to leverage the18 years experience you do have. Most people who work in a shop today would rather take a beating than help with the management side. How many guys have you seen break out a pencil and calculator to make a cut list? How many have you ever seen walk up to a computer and try to do this with a spreadsheet? They can all find the sport scores, check their email and cruise Facebook but somehow can only get the cultist done with paper and pencil.

If you have background you should have skill. Can you communicate this knowledge? Can you build a website or upload a training video to youtube?

What exactly would you hope to get from college? If you were an employer today how much would you expect from a college graduate? (Especially now that the history department is the "hixtory" department.

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