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I got my Master Prac Cert back in 2000 from a trainer here in Calgary. I've never heard of Chris Howard though. My favorite NLP authors are Bandler, Dilts and Bodenhamer. Though I have to say that I've lost respect for Bandler since he started sueing everyone under the sun, that and endorsing MindSpa.

Re: NLP References

Originally Posted by Marisa

Hi RP,
I got my Master Prac Cert back in 2000 from a trainer here in Calgary. I've never heard of Chris Howard though. My favorite NLP authors are Bandler, Dilts and Bodenhamer. Though I have to say that I've lost respect for Bandler since he started sueing everyone under the sun, that and endorsing MindSpa.
How about you?
M.

Marisa, Rob,

So many books on NLP I started with the Dummies Guide which is a fair book!! But where to next? I have the following on my Amazon wish list for triggering very soon. Any comments on these, or others I should buy first?

Re: NLP References

Hi Richard, Rob and anyone else who is interested in NLP,

Originally Posted by RichardHK

Marisa, Rob,

So many books on NLP I started with the Dummies Guide which is a fair book!! But where to next? I have the following on my Amazon wish list for triggering very soon. Any comments on these, or others I should buy first?

Thanks for any comments. Checking out the practitioners cert in Hong Kong too. Sure to be here somewhere but would need to check trainer is competent, and not just making money.

I've read the first two books on your list and they are excellent.

The Sourcebook of Magic is good if you are wanting a list of procedures. Most of the "procedures" in NLP are aimed at practitioners who are going to be doing change work with a client. The thing about doing procedures on yourself if you haven't gone through a course on NLP is that you may have difficulty knowing if you are doing it correctly and therefore you may have difficulty getting the desired results. It is a good reference book and I think that there are benefits to reading a book such as this. There are so many patterns in the book that it's likely the reader will experience some good results. Just keep in mind that this book is really intended as a reference book more than a teaching book.

The User's Manual for The Brain is an excellent book. Michael Hall and Bobby Bodenhamer are excellent writers and any book by them is going to be good. I thought I had User's manual for the brain 1 but I can't find it in my book shelf. I do have Volume II (which is more of a Master Prac. book). Volume 1 covers more of the foundation work in NLP which is going to be much more important and valuable than Volume II (a house without a solid foundation is a house that will be blown down by the big bad wolf).

I haven't read the other two books you have listed but I assume that they would be good because I have high respect for those authors.

A really good book by Dilts that is worth getting is "Sleight of Mouth". This is one of my all time favorite books that I go back to and read time and time again. It is about learning and using language in the most powerful way. The book also contains Dilt's work on Beliefs, which is a definite must read.

It's so great to be able to have a conversation about NLP with someone else who is interested in the subject. The philosophy that surrounds NLP is life changing. I'd love to hear about what you have discovered so far about NLP and how this knowledge has affected you. I'd also like to discuss any of the concepts that you may have questions, comments or even disagreements about.

It is difficult to find a good trainer but they are out there. Dilts has a distance learning package, though it's quite pricey. NLP Comprehensive also have distance learning DVD's - though, they may be helpful, they are not as good as being in a course where you can practice the techniques and ask questions of the instructors. Depending on what you want to do with the NLP, determines how important it is that you take an actual physical course.

Re: NLP References

Thanks Marisa,

Good helpful feedback, and have added 'Sleight of Mouth' to my Xmas shopping list along with the User's Manual, Will go for 'The Sourcebook' a little later when I can understand and apply more. And quite a number of good books in our library system so not short of reading materials.

Actually quite interested in getting a good quality DVD to see some masters in action. Nothing like the real thing I know, but at least I would know I am observing a true master. Have you a title to recommend?? Quite a few less-than masters around given the money-making opportunities - especially in money-mad Hong Kong.

Very keen to talk NLP. Off to UK on business Monday and will get some reading done. Have to say (again?) that I am quite attracted to NLP now I know what I have been missing. I completed a psychology degree in 1980 (before you were born?) that focussed on cognitive psychology, but I had no idea until last week those clever folks were creating NLP at the same time. Most of my stuff learnt was out-of-date without me knowing it. Haa. Good job I didn't need it for my engineering work all these years!

Also had an interest in hypnosis as a young fellow, and still have two books I bought in 1972. What with my Zen meditation training years ago (the in-thing at the time), and these wonderful Mindplace technologies, it is all falling into place rather late in life. No sweat, just better catch up quickly... ...

Talk again soon.

PS. Better to move this NLP stuff to separate thread? I am a non-smoker and the thread title turns me off. Tried to change it but system ignored me.

PPS. Do you know of any NLP books that use graphics (like Mindmaps, systems thinking diagrams, or similar) to show the change patterns and other NLP tools? I would really like to try creating something more visual if not out there.

Last edited by RichardHK; 11-25-2007 at 05:33 PM.
Reason: Added PS... and PPS.

Re: NLP References

And quite a number of good books in our library system so not short of reading materials.

I know what you mean! I figure that I should own shares in Amazon.ca by now. LOL

Actually quite interested in getting a good quality DVD to see some masters in action. Nothing like the real thing I know, but at least I would know I am observing a true master. Have you a title to recommend??

I decided to take a look on line and see if I could spot anything for you and I came across this article on "The Secrets Missing From The Secret". http://www.neurosemantics.com/index....479&Itemid=199 . It's written by L. Michael Hall who is a really good author of other NLP related books. He is part of the Neurosemantics Society which is an off-shoot of NLP but I really like their work.

Quite a few less-than masters around given the money-making opportunities - especially in money-mad Hong Kong.

Is it really that bad?

Very keen to talk NLP. Off to UK on business Monday and will get some reading done.

Wow, UK - that's a bit of a trip! Make sure you bring one of your machines with you on the plane so you can "zone outa' for a while.

Have to say (again?) that I am quite attracted to NLP now I know what I have been missing. I completed a psychology degree in 1980 (before you were born?) that focused on cognitive psychology, but I had no idea until last week those clever folks were creating NLP at the same time. Most of my stuff learnt was out-of-date without me knowing it. Haa. Good job I didn't need it for my engineering work all these years!

1980 before I was born ... ah you flatter me Richard. Hmmm 1980 ... I was 18 and partying.

Up until 2000, my studies were focused more on crime prevention. I use to work as a Private Investigator and specialized in fraud and internal theft. I also worked as an event security coordinator for concerts and VIP appearances. The fraud and crime prevention work led me to joining a profiling group in the U.S. where I got interested in criminal and deviant behavior, which really fascinated me.

In 2000 I took my NLP training and decided to switch careers and become a counselor using NLP. I did that for three years and then got into hypnosis more and light and sound. I realized that I didn't enjoy counseling and so, I shifted gears again and closed down my practice and decided to semi-retire and just work with Mindplace and be the Canadian Distributor of the machines.

I did consider taking psychology at various times and yet I never did ... maybe it was the thought of having to study Freud and all the old ways of psychological torture. LOL

Also had an interest in hypnosis as a young fellow, and still have two books I bought in 1972. What with my Zen meditation training years ago (the in-thing at the time), and these wonderful Mindplace technologies, it is all falling into place rather late in life. No sweat, just better catch up quickly... ...

I like the knowledge of hypnosis. The knowledge of understanding how the unconscious mind works and how it is influenced by certain types of thoughts and words. The actual practice of hypnosis itself isn't all that exciting - although, what I use to do is hook up the client to the L&S, which was hooked up to a mixer that was also connected to a CD player and microphone ... so what the client got was a light and sound experience with my voice in their headphones doing the hypnotherapy session at the same time. It worked great!! It was a very successful and easy way to do things because there were no outside distractions that could bring the person out of the trance. The L&S machine kept them in the trance and I could modulate my voice so that it was in synch with the music (sound of the waves) with the beats from the machine in the background.
Talk again soon.

PS. Better to move this NLP stuff to separate thread? I am a non-smoker and the thread title turns me off. Tried to change it but system ignored me.

Done.

PPS. Do you know of any NLP books that use graphics (like Mindmaps, systems thinking diagrams, or similar) to show the change patterns and other NLP tools? I would really like to try creating something more visual if not out there.

Hmmm I'll look around and see what I can find. In the meantime, I've attached a few diagrams of concepts that I created at some point.

Re: NLP

Hi Marisa,

Thanks again for your comprehensive response. Always good stuff.

On the DVD I will go for the "Fundamentals of NLP" as suggested. I was on their website yesterday after following up your last email and quite impressed with it. But may have missed their special 24% holiday discount. Betta get movin'.

There are some good masters here I know, like George Zee who has been promoting NLP for years. But so many Anthony Robbins look-alike 'you can do it' type courses/trainers which put me off. That is one thing that inflicts NLP in my view, the fact that it can get swamped by so many self-help gurus spouting NLP, etc... These are the guys I was referring to.

Thanks for your career run-through. Been quite exciting for you really. I have been locked into a good-paying engineering job for so long that was not really what I wanted to do. But money... family... shackles...

And thanks for diagrams. Very good. Some NLP books I have read so far are very dry. Even the NLP Dummies book has none of the usual cartoons to liven things up.

Will keep some NLP stuff going here. With some hypnosis too - especially self hypnosis of course. Got to fix myself first right. Learnt that much.

Re: NLP

Hi Richard,

Originally Posted by RichardHK

Hi Marisa,

Thanks again for your comprehensive response. Always good stuff.

On the DVD I will go for the "Fundamentals of NLP" as suggested. I was on their website yesterday after following up your last email and quite impressed with it. But may have missed their special 24% holiday discount. Betta get movin'.

Thanks for the kind words.
If you missed the special by a few days, ask for the discount anyway because companies will often give it to you.

There are some good masters here I know, like George Zee who has been promoting NLP for years. But so many Anthony Robbins look-alike 'you can do it' type courses/trainers which put me off. That is one thing that inflicts NLP in my view, the fact that it can get swamped by so many self-help gurus spouting NLP, etc... These are the guys I was referring to.

I'm curious, what puts you off about them? I get put off by "New Age" people who are teaching "the secret" and such things because they are teaching something that isn't real or true. They are teaching a fantasy, which isn't that helpful and is potentially even harmful to people.

Speaking of Tony Robbins, I bought some of his CDs and actually really enjoyed them. They are really well made. I had bought some Richard Bandler CDs, which I spent a small fortune on and the sound quality was horrendous. Throughout the entire thing, I could hear him breathing and there was a lot of redundant material (like the class cheering etc.). For the kind of money they were charging for these CDs, you would think they could have edited them. They didn't return my email when I wrote them about the quality either.

Thanks for your career run-through. Been quite exciting for you really. I have been locked into a good-paying engineering job for so long that was not really what I wanted to do. But money... family... shackles...

What is it that you really wanted to do? It's a good thing to be able to earn enough money to keep the family going and buy yourself some toys as well. The thought of my using NLP to help people over come problems was a nice fantasy and for those clients who wanted to do the work and change, they succeeded and my job felt rewarding. But those kinds of clients were few and too far between! Most of the people I saw .... made me want a career change. LOL On the security thing - those jobs were actually fun (not the PI stuff, that was pretty tedious) but didn't pay well at all.

And thanks for diagrams. Very good. Some NLP books I have read so far are very dry. Even the NLP Dummies book has none of the usual cartoons to liven things up.

Richard Bandler's books like Frogs to Princes and Time for A change are well written. They are quite funny and entertaining as well as informative. They do not however, give as much information as some of the other books.

When I took my NLP courses, we went through a lot of information but it was taught to us using all of our senses. There were lots of visuals, practice and instruction. It did make the learning a whole lot easier. That's the difference between an NLP Instructor who has taken some Trainer's Training and one who just got the Master Prac cert or Pract Cert. Maybe it's not that way anymore, but the Trainer's Training was geared to teach the Trainer how to train in the most effective way - which is what makes/made them extraordinary trainers.

Will keep some NLP stuff going here. With some hypnosis too - especially self hypnosis of course. Got to fix myself first right. Learnt that much.

Ah, there is always "self" work to do. :-) Here's something interesting about self hypnosis. The brain is must susceptible to suggestion just as you are walking up and just as you are falling asleep (low alpha/theta state). The brain is also highly suggestible whenever you are feeling a strong emotion. Unfortunately, that also applies to negative highly emotional states such as fear, panic, anger, rage, sorrow.

Re: NLP

... If you missed the special by a few days, ask for the discount anyway because companies will often give it to you.

Hi Marisa,

You are right. Just got an email back from the site to offer me the holiday price! Will go ahead today and place order well before the next (Xmas) holiday slows down the postman.

I'm curious, what puts you off about them? I get put off by "New Age" people who are teaching "the secret" and such things ... ...

Inexperience. Like the hundreds of sales guys on the street, on the telephone calls, in the shops, everywhere, trying to sell you something using pseudo-NLP phrases and such. At least I am now understanding more of the language these guys n gals have been told to recite!

Speaking of Tony Robbins, I bought some of his CDs and actually really enjoyed them. They are really well made. I had bought some Richard Bandler CDs, which I spent a small fortune on and the sound quality was horrendous. ... ...They didn't return my email when I wrote them about the quality either.

Tony Robbins stuff is obviously quality made. I read many complaints on Amazon about typos in Bandlers books that really surprise me. Now going through his 'Magic in Action' and can see what they mean. Very poor really. But good material. And don't like the Society of NLP page at back that states in block letters that ONLY RICHARD BANDLER MAY TRAIN TRAINERS OF NLP. Strikes me the fellow has got some neuro problems of his own.

What is it that you really wanted to do? It's a good thing to be able to earn enough money to keep the family going and buy yourself some toys as well... ...

Always wanted to be a teacher really. Can revisit the desire sooner than i think when my boy gets through his US boarding school and college years starting in 2008. My interest in NLP is also allied to creating corporate training services to follow my earlier power company change management training I designed/ran. Having worked in the corporate field for so long, I am used to dealing with children.

Richard Bandler's books like Frogs to Princes and Time for A change are well written. They are quite funny and entertaining as well as informative. They do not however, give as much information as some of the other books.

Waiting on Frogs to Princes with local library, but as noted, like the Magic in Action transcript format. Can learn a lot from printed word but (good quality) DVD better, and real training the best. Going in that direction Ok.

When I took my NLP courses, we went through a lot of information but it was taught to us using all of our senses. ... ...the Trainer's Training was geared to teach the Trainer how to train in the most effective way - which is what makes/made them extraordinary trainers.

Right on! That's what I hope to get involved with at the right time.

...The brain is must susceptible to suggestion just as you are walking up and just as you are falling asleep (low alpha/theta state)...

Yes, I now remember reading that a long time ago. Picking up 'Hypnosis: Medicine of the Mind' book today that should be interesting.

Talking of books, I read a complaint on Amazon about the 'NLP for Dummies' book I am reading. I find it quite a useful mixed bag of info at the right level. But one comment intrigued me and I was going to ask you about it. The Amazon fellow complained on exact same topic and claimed it was complete rubbish to state (what I am about to say) and he'd never read it anywhere else!

Dummies p52: "Your unconscious cannot process negatives. It interprets everything you think as a positive thought. So if you think, 'I don't want to be poor', your unconscious mind focuses on the 'poor' and, because it doesn't do negatives, the thought becomes 'I want to be poor'."

Do you support this? Is it true? Is there any support for statement? Or is it just wrong or poorly written?

Re: NLP

You are right. Just got an email back from the site to offer me the holiday price! Will go ahead today and place order well before the next (Xmas) holiday slows down the postman.

That is good news!

Inexperience. Like the hundreds of sales guys on the street, on the telephone calls, in the shops, everywhere, trying to sell you something using pseudo-NLP phrases and such. At least I am now understanding more of the language these guys n gals have been told to recite!

They have the words but they don't know why or how to use them properly.

Tony Robbins stuff is obviously quality made. I read many complaints on Amazon about typos in Bandlers books that really surprise me. Now going through his 'Magic in Action' and can see what they mean. Very poor really. But good material. And don't like the Society of NLP page at back that states in block letters that ONLY RICHARD BANDLER MAY TRAIN TRAINERS OF NLP. Strikes me the fellow has got some neuro problems of his own.

I wish I better understood what made Richard choose the path he chose. I think that he would have been much more successful if he had decided to take the approach of sharing what he had learned with the world and worked with the other NLP trainers in a positive way, much like an Elder imparting his wisdom.

Tad James has alienated himself in a similar way with his "Time Line" therapy. No one is allowed to say "Time Line" without Tad running to his lawyers. I think this sort of an attitude is a turn off. We learned "Time line/journey line" therapy in our NLP training. Tad James was one of the trainers that my trainer was trained by and yet, when I wrote an article about it on my website, I got a "lawyer letter" from James saying I couldn't use that term blah blah blah. I ended up thinking "what a jerk" ... if anything, I could have been someone to send him some business but after his petty actions .. well ... that wasn't going to happen. Tad James has even gone after his own students for using his "teachings" inappropriately ... meaning they didn't pay him extra to use the word. I dunno?

James and Bandler, they try to hold on to what they think is theirs so tightly that they lose the very business they are trying to keep for themselves. I don't want to learn from someone who is that petty. I'm sure many others feel the same way.

Always wanted to be a teacher really. Can revisit the desire sooner than i think when my boy gets through his US boarding school and college years starting in 2008. My interest in NLP is also allied to creating corporate training services to follow my earlier power company change management training I designed/ran. Having worked in the corporate field for so long, I am used to dealing with children.

So what would you like to teach? Is it difficult having your son so far away in boarding school?

Talking of books, I read a complaint on Amazon about the 'NLP for Dummies' book I am reading. I find it quite a useful mixed bag of info at the right level. But one comment intrigued me and I was going to ask you about it. The Amazon fellow complained on exact same topic and claimed it was complete rubbish to state (what I am about to say) and he'd never read it anywhere else!

Dummies p52: "Your unconscious cannot process negatives. It interprets everything you think as a positive thought. So if you think, 'I don't want to be poor', your unconscious mind focuses on the 'poor' and, because it doesn't do negatives, the thought becomes 'I want to be poor'."

Do you support this? Is it true? Is there any support for statement? Or is it just wrong or poorly written?

We were taught this concept in our NLP training. The authors in "dummies" have condensed the idea into a few sentences. I agree with what they say. Now ... can I find the evidence to back it up ....

Source: NLP: The New Technology of Achievement pg. 33
"In almost any conversation, you will hear people say things like, Don't worry" or "Don't think about it". Stop and consider this a moment. If you were told, "Don't think about that big black bear, " what immediately happens in your mind? Well, despite what you heard, you will find yourself thinking about a big black bear. The same kind of thing happens when you are told, "Don't think about that problem." Our brains simply don't know how to put things into negative language. In order to know what not to think of, our brains have to first think of it. All of us know managers and parents who, in trying to be helpful, tell us or others what not to do. What they are unknowingly doing is sending our attention in exactly the direction they didn't want us to go."

I'm going to keep looking and will get back to you if I find anything else.

Re: NLP

Originally Posted by Marisa

James and Bandler, they try to hold on to what they think is theirs so tightly that they lose the very business they are trying to keep for themselves. I don't want to learn from someone who is that petty. I'm sure many others feel the same way.

Actually Marisa, this proves to me that the NLP guys are simply playing around at the lower consciousness levels, and getting themselves deluded with visions of grandeur. Much like meditation in the early stages, and same level that many religions do not go beyond. Buddhism, Hinduism, and similar have it all worked out! James and Bandler are trapped playing with their own demons.

If the James' lawyers had sent me that letter I would have put it on my website with a Google search link to 'Time Line' that would pick up the many many project management and other disciplnes use of phrase WELL before those guys thought of it. Would the Project Management Institute send James a letter? No way. Idiotic.

I am gonna skip buying the Bandler books and refer to library copies when needed. My cash will go to Dilts, Hall, Bodenhamer and similar sensible clever folk.

Thought up a new name for the James and Bander practice: NticLP. Get it? Answer at bottom.

So what would you like to teach? Is it difficult having your son so far away in boarding school?

At my age now, would like to teach creative subjects like movie-making, audio production, etc. Plus special classes on teaching kids how to study, revise, etc. My boy is still here until next August, and quite sure will miss him. Thinking about following him to US sometime later as your Community Colleges are available for mature overseas students. By then I could update my psychology and teach wellness stuff.

... ..."In almost any conversation, you will hear people say things like, Don't worry" or "Don't think about it". Stop and consider this a moment. If you were told, "Don't think about that big black bear, " what immediately happens in your mind? Well, despite what you heard, you will find yourself thinking about a big black bear. The same kind of thing happens when you are told, "Don't think about that problem." Our brains simply don't know how to put things into negative language...

Very interesting and look forward to any more sources you may find. One thing does puzzle me, and that is if subconscious cannot process the negatives in above, why does it respond to negative suggestions like 'I cannot do this', 'I will not improve', etc. If children are repeatably told they are useless, not clever, whatever, the effect can destroy their future.

So, why/how does subconscious not process simple negatives, but then process negative-suggestions big-time? Weird. Still lots to learn, eh?