Friend, there are these five faculties each with a separate range, a separate domain, and they do not experience one another’s range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty.

What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?”

In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications… his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications… his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling.

When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear.

It is has only been compared to a corpse in as much as the difference between the two states has been delineated, it has not been likened to being dead contrary to your statement. As a matter of fact Ven. Sariputta makes it clear that there are fundamental differences, he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.

There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

How can consciousness exist without perception & feeling?

Also, MN 38:

"It's good, monks, that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in this way, for in many ways I have said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'

SN 22.53

Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

It is has only been compared to a corpse in as much as the difference between the two states has been delineated, it has not been likened to being dead contrary to your statement. As a matter of fact Ven. Sariputta makes it clear that there are fundamental differences, he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.

Friend, there are these five faculties each with a separate range, a separate domain, and they do not experience one another’s range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty. MN 43

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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

Friend, there are these five faculties each with a separate range, a separate domain, and they do not experience one another’s range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty.

What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?”

In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications… his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications… his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling.

When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear.

It is has only been compared to a corpse in as much as the difference between the two states has been delineated, it has not been likened to being dead contrary to your statement. As a matter of fact Ven. Sariputta makes it clear that there are fundamental differences, he never says unconsciousness, he explicitly says that the faculties are exceptionally clear.

Hello DooDoot:

This is just a personal opinion-

1. What is meant by the phrase: "his faculties are exceptionally clear"? . When a person is in the cessation of perception & feeling, he doesn´t have any consciousness, or perception, or feeling. There is nothing. But like MN-121 states: "There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.". So basically you have sense-doors/heat and vitality, but you don´t even know it until you come out of that state.So by the statement "his faculties are exceptionally clear" it means your senses are completely clear because you are not using them, they are not being "tainted" by any contact/craving, but they are there.

2. Are these "faculties" mental faculties, spiritual faculties or physical faculties? Physical faculties, or even the mind door, but no mind objects. But when the person comes out of that state its when the other faculties also become "exceptionally clear".

"Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?".

3. Are these "faculties" conscious or unconscious in nirodha-samāpatti? Unconscious at that time, they just become conscious when coming out of that state, because when consciousness comes back you are able to see the first things that arise due to the senses already being there (eye of wisdom).

When faculties are Exceptionally clear cessation of Contact occurs and it is a Supramundane (Noble) attainment, 8FNP is the path to cessation of Contact;

"And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment.

"And what is feeling? These six classes of feeling — feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called feeling. From the origination of contact comes the origination of feeling. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling...

"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...

Faculties are not beyond the treshold of cessation;

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"In me, lord, arose such a wish as this: 'I will arrive at the end of the world by walking.' And though such, lord, was my speed, and such my stride, and though, with a life-span of a century, living for hundred years I walked continuously for a hundred years, save the while I spent in eating, drinking, chewing or tasting, or in answering calls of nature, save the while I gave way to sleep or fatigue,[25] yet I died on the way without reaching the end of the world. Wonderful is it, lord, marvelous is it, lord, how well it is said by the Exalted One: 'Where, friend, one does not get born... or to arrive at.'"

"But neither do I say, friend, that without having reached the end of the world there could be an ending of ill. It is in this very fathom-long physical frame with its perceptions and mind, that, I declare, lies the world, and the arising of the world, and the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world."[26]

Vinnana Anidassanam is the only consciousness on the treshold of The Unmade and beyond the treshold of the Cessation;

Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

"'And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"

Then Ven. Ānanda went to Ven. Sāriputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sāriputta, “Friend Sāriputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire… wind… the dimension of the infinitude of space… the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness… the dimension of nothingness… the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception… this world… nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?”

“Yes, friend Ānanda, he could.…”

“But how, friend Sāriputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth…nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?”

“Once, friend Ānanda, when I was staying right here near Sāvatthī in the Grove of the Blind, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth…nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient.”

“But what, friend Sāriputta, were you percipient of at that time?”

“‘The cessation of becoming—unbinding—the cessation of becoming—unbinding’: One perception arose in me, friend Ānanda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, ‘The cessation of becoming—unbinding—the cessation of becoming—unbinding’: One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of ‘The cessation of becoming—unbinding.’”

There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]

Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)
...
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.

The Noble Attainment of cessation leads to Knowledge of Destruction;

Eyes
This was said by the Lord …

“Bhikkhus, there are these three eyes. What three? The fleshly eye, the divine eye, and the wisdom eye. These, bhikkhus, are the three eyes.”

The fleshly eye, the divine eye,
And the unsurpassed wisdom eye—
These three eyes were described
By the Buddha, supreme among men.

The arising of the fleshly eye
Is the path to the divine eye,But the unsurpassed wisdom eye
Is that from which knowledge arises.
By obtaining such an eye
One is released from all suffering.

Knowledge that leads to release from all Suffering;

"Monks, I declare that the destruction of the cankers comes for him who knows and sees, and not for him who does not know and does not see. By knowing what, by seeing what, does the destruction of the cankers come about? 'Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.

When faculties are exceptionally clear The Four Noble Truths are thus realized;

“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."
Notes

1.
Dukkhataa, an abstract noun denoting "suffering" in the most general sense.
2.
Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
3.
Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena" (i.e., sankhaaras, in the most general sense: see BD [Buddhist Dictionary (2nd ed.), by Ven. Nyaa.natiloka, Ven. Nyaa.naponika (ed.), Colombo 1972] s.v. sankhaara I, 4). This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling. The suffering inherent in the formations has its roots in the imperfectability of all conditioned existence, and in the fact that there cannot be any final satisfaction within the incessant turning of the Wheel of Life. The neutral feeling associated with this type of suffering is especially the indifference of those who do not understand the fact of suffering and are not moved by it.
4.
Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change" (VM XIV, 35).

i cba talking to the op of this thread but if anybody else has questions lmk

In the Abhidhamma there are references to the "eightfold form-faculty" (aṭṭhavidhaṃ indriya-rūpaṃ) which includes the first five sensory faculties (eye, ear, nose, tongue and body faculties) plus the three physical faculties (femininity, masculinity and vitality).

"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."

If a person is still alive and also an arahant , if he does not have feelings , then he would not have five aggregates ! How many aggregates does Buddha has ? Does Buddha smile ? Is smiling a kind of feeling ?

If a person is still alive and also an arahant , if he does not have feelings , then he would not have five aggregates ! How many aggregates does Buddha has ? Does Buddha smile ? Is smiling a kind of feeling ?

Nirodha-samāpatti is not equivalent to Nibbana .

you have no idea what you are talking about.. you reject the Sutta definitions of Contact, Sanna and Vinnana, why do you even post?
You seem to have a religion different to what the Buddha taught, did you make it up yourself?

Because i already talked to you and you told me you do not accept the definitions of Vinnana, Panna, Vedana and Sanna as they are explained in the Sutta Pitaka. Instead you replace the Pali Concepts with contemporary english concepts and contemporary english dictionary definitions. When you say consciousness the meaning is not same as Vinnana as taught in the Sutta, same with Perception and Feeling, therefore you are completely out there. Same with Aggregates, your teaching on the Aggregates is something entirely different than the teaching on Khandas and Contact.
Therefore there is no use in talking to you.

"'Perception, perception': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'perception'?"

"'It perceives, it perceives': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'perception.' And what does it perceive? It perceives blue. It perceives yellow. It perceives red. It perceives white. 'It perceives, it perceives': Thus it is said to be 'perception.'"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them?"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

all that arises at sense doors is contact, when there is contact there can be delineation of feeling, perception etc

Here's Google definition .

Perception :

1.
the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses .

2.
the organization, identification, and interpretation of sensory information .

3.
the neurophysiological processes, including memory, by which an organism becomes aware of and interprets external stimuli.

What I think is today science and technology are far more advanced as compared to thousand years ago and that the way informations and knowledges today helps us understand better the processes of this human body than before .

Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Why not you explain the meaning of five aggregates according to your understanding in English ?
Because , I don't see any problems since you are reading English translation sutta and use English to communicate to everyone ? I still don't understand what is the difference between our language or the suttas meaning ?

Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them.

all that arises at sense doors is contact, when there is contact there can be delineation of feeling, perception etc.

Why not you explain the meaning of five aggregates according to your understanding in English ?
Because , I don't see any problems since you are reading English translation sutta and use English to communicate to everyone ? I still don't understand what is the difference between our language or the suttas meaning ?

Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them.

Why not use the conventional definitions is because ie "consciousness" is the biggest mystery in science, it is completely undefined and a vague concept. Whereas in The Dhamma the term Vinnana, the Aggregates as well as their Interrelation is perfectly explained, pinned down and defined.
Same with other terms ie wisdom, we do not change Dhamma to fit our world view, we break our world view and rebuild it according to the Dhamma.

Throughout the Sutta Pitaka we find defintions for words, this is crucial to connecting the various terms and making sense of the teaching by forming a comperhensive model of the teachings as well as a model of reality to understand the world and beyond.