I heard people say that that is what the loop is for and clipping or tying into the loop on the waistband and the loop between your legs was bad juju. I feel vindicated now for not listening to all these "experts".

Uh, you're SUPPOSED to tie into both loops!! as for one point of failure, saxfiend is right, we do it all the time on single ropes.

belay loops are for belaying and rappeling. if you use tie-in points, you cuold cross load something. plus, its not very comfy.

an intact belay loop is strong enough not to need redundance. just like a single rope. but if its damaged...

Just about every belay loop on the market is redundant. Look at where the stiching is...it's 3 layers thick....this creates two seperate(stacked and stitched together) belay loop layers. You could cut through either the top or bottom layer, or any one of the bartacks...and still have a safe functional harness.

We treat this as 1 piece of equipment....but there are in fact two independant layers of webbing. The only harness I'm aware of that doesn't have this is the new WC (i think, saw it in an MGear catalog...) competition harness that has that skinny dyneema belay loop...which makes me pucker right up.

Apparently the harness is question was being pushed too hard for too long. This isn't a case of single point equipment failure...it's a case of neglected gear that should have been retired long ago.

Anyone who still teaches you to clip into your tie-in points is unaware of the actual contruction of a belay loop, and doesn't understand how carabiners really break.

You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??

You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??

well, your loop might not catch you when you fall, but hopefully your belayer's loop will.

You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??

My heart goes out to Todd's family. What a tragedy. I wish them strength and many loved ones around them to support them.

I have seen in the past that it is customary to start a separate thread to analyze an accident and leave the original thread for condolences and remembrances, out of respect for the climber and his or her family. Perhaps we should do that here.

That is exactly what I mean. every time you catch a fall with a grigri or ATC etc that belay loop is going to take a hit. working high end climbs all the time maby that belay loop had caught a lot of falls????

My heart goes out to Todd's family. What a tragedy. I wish them strength and many loved ones around them to support them.

I have seen in the past that it is customary to start a separate thread to analyze an accident and leave the original thread for condolences and remembrances, out of respect for the climber and his or her family. Perhaps we should do that here.

Well said.

Again, my thought are with Todd's family and friends. I'll say my own silent goodbye to him out on a climb on the weekend. Inspirational doesn't come close to how he was viewed by all to many climbers. He helped so many to see what could be done, while simply following his passion.

Having grown up in my climbing career with stories of the greats are, it seems a little surreal that such an icon can be so real and fragile. Whenever I meet a climber that I see in Magazines or Catalogues, I am always surprised by how amiable, laid back, and REAL they are. They are just climbers.

It is truly a pity that a lifestyle that relies so much on tight bonds of partnerships, trust and faith in who you are close to, is one that can also have all that torn from us. It doesn't take much to appreciate what another climber has done, whether its in the climbing he/she does or their family. These accomplishments go hand in hand, the loss of the climbing community is a fraction to those of his freinds and family, and it is to them I send my prayers.

You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??

How do i contain my shock, my disbelief? My profound sense of loss goes so far beyond a day of mourning and moving on, every time we lose a person like Todd Skinner a lil piece of us all goes with them.

with this loss, rock climbing as a sport turns a corner into new and uncharted territory. Gone is one of the true legends of climbings wildest and most progressive era's, the sport will never be the same.

I dont have any stories to share about me and Todd, i cant say i even knew the man. but he did inspire me in a huge way through his powerful climbing, amazing acomplishments, and positive approach to life that was conveyed through interviews, movies and close fellow aquaintances.

Tommorow, life will go on. But right now, i think i speak for everyone when i say "we honor you mr. Skinner, for all your contributions". //Sulli

Like Mal, I have memories of climbing with Todd going back 25 years or more. We did a lot of fun stuff in Joshua Tree, The Gunks, Hueco and probably a couple of other places that my jet-lagged mind is not fully recalling right now.

I heard of Todd's passing via telephone while in Moscow a couple of days ago. My heart goes out to his family and friends. I will always remember Todd as an inspirational force in climbing. By that I mean personally inspirational. He would always encourage me (and others around him) to do things they may have thought impossible. Often his personal energy did indeed make the difference between success and failure on a route--at least for me.

Although I hadn't seen Todd for several years now, I will miss him dearly.

I've waited a few days to post my response to Todd's death. I guess I just needed the time to process. He was one of my early climbing heroes. I met him at Vedawoo a couple of years back, but I never really knew the man. He seemed like one hell of a guy and I remember him as being 100% energy while I was around him.

My deepest condolences go out to his family and friends.

Good luck Todd. I hope wherever you are the rock is warm and sunny and the beer is cold.

This year I retired all my old gear and bought: a new Bluewater rope, new BD QDs, new slings, ATC and locking biners. I even got 3 new pairs of shoes (only one I had to pay for).

The thing I didn't buy, didn't even consider, maybe stupidly now, was a new harness. My harness is so comfortable and I do take care of it but.... It is 5+ years and seen a lot more than the weekend warrior amount of climbing. In fact several of those years were full time everyday climbing in the hot sun and sand. I will be taking a good hard look at my harness inspecting every inch. I think though that I to will be looking into the purchase of a new harness and retiring this most vital piece of equipment.

Paranoid??? Maybe. It is my life though and a harness isn't that much in terms of cost.

This year I retired all my old gear and bought: a new Bluewater rope, new BD QDs, new slings, ATC and locking biners. I even got 3 new pairs of shoes (only one I had to pay for).

The thing I didn't buy, didn't even consider, maybe stupidly now, was a new harness. My harness is so comfortable and I do take care of it but.... It is 5+ years and seen a lot more than the weekend warrior amount of climbing. In fact several of those years were full time everyday climbing in the hot sun and sand. I will be taking a good hard look at my harness inspecting every inch. I think though that I to will be looking into the purchase of a new harness and retiring this most vital piece of equipment.

Paranoid??? Maybe. It is my life though and a harness isn't that much in terms of cost.

This year I retired all my old gear and bought: a new Bluewater rope, new BD QDs, new slings, ATC and locking biners. I even got 3 new pairs of shoes (only one I had to pay for).

The thing I didn't buy, didn't even consider, maybe stupidly now, was a new harness. My harness is so comfortable and I do take care of it but....

The harness is 5+ years and seen a lot more than the weekend warrior amount of climbing. In fact several of those years were full time everyday climbing in the hot sun and sand. I will be taking a good hard look at my harness inspecting every inch. I think though that I to will be looking into the purchase of a new harness and retiring this most vital piece of equipment.

Paranoid??? Maybe. It is my life though and a new harness isn't that much in terms of cost.

Although personally I have resisted using one, I wonder if this is an argument in favor of a prussik backup for rapping? Presumably, if threaded through a non-speed-buckle leg loop, it would even save you from a loosened buckle.

I also understand all the arguments about loop construction, strength, etc., but I'm starting to think I need to get used to the added hassle of dealing with a backup...

The belay loop is generally regarded as the most secure point of a harness. The fact that it attaches to both your leg-loops and the rodeo-bar (or whatever it's really called) is what would possibly make it less secure. Setting aside the possibility of a manufacturing defect, the only realistic possibility is that a harness is used beyond its reasonable lifetime of 1-3 years. You should always retire a harness when the belay loop begins to look frayed or worn. Beyond that, I'm much more familiar with using a prussik as a back-up for a rappel, as opposed to saving your butt from a failing harness. If your belay loop does fail, I'm not very confident that you're going to stay in that harness too long...

"Anyone who still teaches you to clip into your tie-in points is unaware of the actual contruction of a belay loop, and doesn't understand how carabiners really break."

Cheers, Jim I understand that clipping into both the waist and legloops of a harness gives me 2 failsafe points, and keeps me less prone to "tipping". I also understand how to orient a biner to not crossload.

The other common practice is to attach a friction knot to one leg loop. Hanging from this might be rather startling & uncomfortable, but it might work.

It is incredibly uncomfortable, and I've only tried it while upright and switching rappels. If we are operating undere the assumption that your belay loop has failed, then there is nothing keeping you from falling-out of your leg loops except your thigh straps (mine are dinky little elastic bands). If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest a klemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar. The klemheist is easier to loosen once weighted, and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to extrude your upper body (or lower, in the case you become inverted) through your swami belt. Placing the stopper-knot above your rappel device will also decrease the extension in the system in the event of failure, and will prevent whip-lash.

The other common practice is to attach a friction knot to one leg loop. Hanging from this might be rather startling & uncomfortable, but it might work.

It is incredibly uncomfortable, and I've only tried it while upright and switching rappels. If we are operating undere the assumption that your belay loop has failed, then there is nothing keeping you from falling-out of your leg loops except your thigh straps (mine are dinky little elastic bands). If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest aklemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar. The klemheist is easier to loosen once weighted, and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to extrude your upper body (or lower, in the case you become inverted) through your swami belt. Placing the stopper-knot above your rappel device will also decrease the extension in the system in the event of failure, and will prevent whip-lash.

As bill413 had said, if you put the back up onto your rap loop, and it fails the prussic or klemhiest isnt going to do much. Every class I had taken in the last 5 years had taught the back up goes BELOW the rap device and that the other end goes into your leg loop. It is easier to release if you loose control of your back up, there is less force on the back up cord or webbing and yes it will be uncomfortable if the rap loop breaks, but you arent going to deck.

Just out of curiousity, has any one ever heard of a belay loop breaking on a rap or belay?

as already mentioned, rappell backup through the leg loop is incredibly uncomfortable. if you've ever been hanging from it to un-clusterf*kk your ropes, you know why. rather either put the biner holding the belay device or the one holding the prussik through the upper and lower loop of your harness (parallel to the belay loop). just my 2c.