I am relatively new to this sport, only shooting since September of last year. I am always bewildered at the tails of <1-2" groups at 25+yards with a handgun. Maybe its just my old eyes, (I'm 52) but I cant even see a 1" target at 75 feet. I can, on a really good day get 1-2" group at 25-30 feet off hand. I've never tried with a bench rest. But getting much beyond 50 feet I'm pretty much in the 8" circle if I'm lucky. And I practice a fair amount, over a 1000 rds a month. By the way I've never met anyone at any of the ranges I've been to that could do this either but then again I do live in the Peoples Republic of Illinois. What kind of discipline does this take to be actually able to do this? Or are they mostly fables...

I too have read about such claims, but I think it's just a "that fish was this big" phenomenon. Not saying it can't be done, but I'd have to see it to believe it.

That being said, a handgun with a scope might get you close.

I bought a cheap little Winchester sight vice a while back, and it works pretty well. The only problem is, even after clamping the gun down, it tends to jump right out of the clamp due to the recoil, so mounting it precisely in the same spot again is tough. Then again, even the vice just sits on a table and is not clamped down. If a person had a vice, a big, sturdy one clamped to a table with clamp system holding the gun perfectly still, a "shooter" might shoot a 1" group. But that's the gun, not the shooter.

I shoot at a man-size target at 75 feet with almost all hits in the kill zone, so I don't feel bad. The group size? Probably several inches. At 15 feet, my groups are 3" to 4" on a good day. I'm happy with that as I'll hit what I shoot at.

It isn't a magic number so don't get hung up on it. A 4" group at 25 yards is a heart sized group and is bad enough to make any boogerman give up his quest for your life and your property. It's also good enough to stop the neighbors mad dog from having your leg for his lunch.

A 1" group has its disadvantages too. I fired a few and actually lost points at the S.E regional championships in Shreveport Louisiana because the scorer and the referees couldn't see evidence of 10 shots and that was with my 45. Fortunately I never fired many groups that size so my shots were easy to count on paper. I have seen people like Harmon, and Pasquarella do it fairly regularly, no tricked out guns, just good guns, lots of sweat equity and careful attention to basics. I figure if I am doing 3" I am doing my job and if its 6" I'm still on target and still doing my job.

Best way to weed out the tall tales from the shooters is to get them on range with you. Then be prepared to hear the excuses of why it wasn't happening at that point and time. An experienced shooter always has his excuses lined up and ready to go. You should hear some of mine.

__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--

Don't feel bad, most people don't have tails, and the ones that do usually have them removed when they are very young.

Keep at it and you will get closer. There are some who can do it after they have poured an somewhat-insane amount of dedication into the sport. The only name that jumps to the front of my skull is Zins. That guy can shoot some very small groups at 50 yards, I imagine he could pull off the 1" at 25 you have in mind.

But there is a lot more big talk floating around than world-class shooting actually being shot. People do tell some wild tales.

Best I've ever done with a handgun is 5 shots into 10" at 50 yards. I need to practice, hopefully I can improve that at some point.

__________________
"A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards."
-George Orwell

I have done this a very few times, usually with someone else's gun. One was a High Standard Victor, one a Glock 21 and the another a Glock 36. (yes, I know that last one sounds odd.) That is infequent enough to consider those events flukes. However, I have known other guys who could do this regularly.

When I shot, I could generally put five rounds of .45 within three inches at 20 yards (my accuracy deteriorates with distance at a greater than linear rate) but that is an order of magnitude worse than the better shooters I've known.

Greysmoke: I am relativly new to this sport, only shooting since September of last year. I am always bewildered at the tails of <1-2" groups at 25+yards with a handgun.

You're obviously not educated on how to score groups. First of all, you only count the best three and throw out the rest as "flyers". If you still don't have a 1" group, then keep shooting until you get three close enough together. Brings lots of ammo.

Actually, you need a really tuned pistol to do that along with match ammo and good eyes and lots and lots of practice. Even before my eyes went to hell and I had a fine match 1911, I'd only occasionally get a 2" group and that was probably more due to luck than anything else. Even with all the right tools and younger eyes, most groups were between 3 and 4".

There are people who can make one hole groups consistently, but they're rare. I'm talking about offhand shooting, not the guy who sits there shooting off sandbags and then showing them off as "groups".

Typically a target designed for handgun use will have an aiming point considerably larger than 1"--often up to 8" in size. That is pretty easy to see. The size of the target doesn't determine the size of the group. One can shoot a small group on a target with a fairly large aiming point if they hold consistently on the aiming point.

I can only claim a couple of 1" groups at 25 yards in the 20 years I've been shooting. I can get down around 3" five shot groups at 25 yards in a typical shooting session if the gun & ammo combo is capable of it. Those are shot standing with iron sights--I don't have any handguns with optical sights. I've got four saved groups sitting next to me on the desk that are all under 3" with one coming in a little over an inch and a half. Of course there's a reason I saved those.

There are certainly people out there that can shoot 1" groups with a handgun at 25 yards but that is very good shooting indeed (also requiring good ammunition and exceptional equipment) and it's not unreasonable to greet claims of that kind of accuracy with good-natured skepticism.

I can do it occasionally from a rest with my sig/hammerli trailside, red dot scope, and match ammo.

The gun even came from the factory with a target "medallion" with 5 shots in the 1" circle, and 25m printed on it.

__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

Well, there's quite a difference between a 1" and a 2" 25 yard group. Logarithmic, probably. The latter is do-able with practice and attention to the fundamentals. Though not common, you might occasionally see someone at the range able to do this consistently.

The former is also do-able, but would take far far more practice and attention to fundamentals. This shooter is, IMO, world class.

Personally, I think most shooters, with practice, can (and should) be proficient enough to be able to pick up their service-sized pistol or revolver and shoot, on demand, honest and consistent slowfire 3-4" 25 yard groups. And wheelgunners ought to be able to do this in double action.

What surprises me most, though, is the willingness many shooters seem to have on forums like this to label any good group as a tall tale or irrelevant, and the shooter a liar and a braggart. Even when a pic of the target is posted, skeptics often dismiss it. Yet, a mediocre-at-best group is posted and huzzahs abound.

Sure, there are claims that stretch credibility, and I feel I know generally where the line is. I'm trying to be a better shooter myself, and their claim doesn't make me any worse of a shooter, so I generally give the benefit of the doubt, and even try to learn from it.

Personally, I think most shooters, with practice, can (and should) be proficient enough to be able to pick up their service-sized pistol or revolver and shoot, on demand, honest and consistent slowfire 3-4" 25 yard groups.

I've had bad days I didn't come close to that.

Quote:

What surprises me most, though, is the willingness many shooters seem to have on forums like this to label any good group as a tall tale or irrelevant, and the shooter a liar and a braggart.

I understand it. If I had someone describe to me some of the shooting I've seen others do, I would at a minimum consider it unlikely. Mix that with a medium in which verification isn't part of the program, and a even mild skeptic can become suspicious.

I shot for a long time before I was good enough for the equipment I was using to matter at all. Back then, I'd have considered 3" at 25 yards to be a near circus trick.

Groups like that could be useful for handgun hunting at long range, but for self defense a group like that is meaningless.

As an example, many years ago my BIL took me shooting. He's in the FBI. I shot slightly tighter groups that he did with his service Glock. That's probably because I trained that way. Small groups offhand.

Then he showed me how he trained. He drew from concealment and placed 4 shots in the black at 15 yards in 3 seconds. Then he did it again to show me it was no fluke. Told me that's how they trained. Usually, the first guy to get hits wins the gunfight. Not the smallest group.

I bought some Speer plastic training bullets and did a lot of practice drawing from concealment in my garage after that. It made a huge difference in my ability to get the first shot on target a lot faster.

This email link is to reach site administrators for assistance, if you cannot access TFL via other means. If you are a TFL member and can access TFL, please do not use this link; instead, use the forums (like Questions, Suggestions, and Tech Support) or PM an appropriate mod or admin.

If you are experiencing difficulties posting in the Buy/Sell/Trade subforums of TFL, please read the "sticky" announcement threads at the top of the applicable subforum. If you still feel you are qualified to post in those subforums, please contact "Shane Tuttle" (the mod for that portion of TFL) via Private Message for assistance.

This email contact address is not an "Ask the Firearms Expert" service. Such emails will be ignored. If you have a firearm related question, please register and post it on the forums.