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DONUT ZEN

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss. And I'm afraid I'm getting addicted. What do I do? Stop sitting? I'm afraid Reality is going to rip me a "new one." I have enough trouble with my "old one."

Re: DONUT ZEN

But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

Practice... and practice.. until we'll see the 'desire for sweetness' and see our wish to 'get past the desire' and from it is borne our ability to not be attached to either. IMHO...

Originally Posted by ghop

My life is a mess.

You can probably strike out "My" and find uniform agreement..

I wouldn't say my zazen is borderline bliss... perhaps I'm doing it wrong : P ... but I would caution the use of zazen as an escape or as the search for the jelly filling and encourage the practice as practice and the life as life until the two are shown to be no different. Or so goes my view... and that is, as many things are, easier said than done since we are so prone to focus on the saying and not on the doing : P

Re: DONUT ZEN

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?
gassho
Greg

Ask yourself; Who is it that is feeling this bliss? Who is it that is getting addicted? Who is it that thinks their life is a mess?

Desire for sweetness, in life, zazen, or whatever is not in itself something to get passed, it is the meaning we put behind the desire that we need to get pass.

Good things are nice, good moments are nice, and donuts are something even Buddha would take if he had to choose between that and a maggot infested fruit. It is the meaning we put to the desire that we should investigate, One should ask "what do I think I will get from this desire? What is it that is fueling this desire?"
And with that keep on sitting. Let the bliss come, embrace and expect it too, just remain completely aware of everything. Remain completely aware of the whole process. Of you sitting, of you expecting bliss, of your desires, just remain aware. And like everything else, it will pass. Don't hide from anything, don't run from anything. Face it, see it, understand it, let it go.

Re: DONUT ZEN

Originally Posted by ghop

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss. And I'm afraid I'm getting addicted. What do I do? Stop sitting? I'm afraid Reality is going to rip me a "new one." I have enough trouble with my "old one."

Any sages here? Help!

gassho
Greg

Some very good guidance in the posts above!

Zazen is sweet jelly fillings of bliss ... also bitter spinach and brocolli. Spinach and brocolli are not my favorite foods, but they are part of a balanced diet. So it is with Zazen, so with all of life (not two, by the way). If I ate only sweets and donuts all the time, I would be fatter than I am!

Sometimes we must even swallow deadly poisons that will kill us (when we have no choice, of course, and though we would rather not).

So, take the advice of folks above.

Do not run after just the jelly ... and know the Joy of even that which life dishes up that is not always purely joyful!

Re: DONUT ZEN

Originally Posted by ghop

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss. And I'm afraid I'm getting addicted. What do I do? Stop sitting? I'm afraid Reality is going to rip me a "new one." I have enough trouble with my "old one."

Any sages here? Help!

gassho
Greg

Hey G

If you take my advice, I'd take what I learn in zazen and reading into life. Most of the times we don't realize we have all the answers to our problems in our very hands but we fail to see them because we are attached to stuff.

Zazen is a huge part of our practice, but taking all what we learn into living is also important.

Like Jundo just said, sometimes we have to take head on on the bitter situations in life, but you know what? No life is a mess. We only have to understand how to takle problems without getting attached to aversions.

Re: DONUT ZEN

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss.

Take out the middle sentence and we get:

Originally Posted by ghop

My life is a mess. But my zazen is borderline bliss.

Now, if you want my opinion (I'm no expert, but I think I can relate on terms of personal experience), we can take the above and with a little creative editing, we might find ourselves here:

Originally Posted by ghop

my zazen is borderline bliss because My life is a mess.

emphasis added.

I think you know that because your life is a mess, and therefore most likely hectic and crazy and stressful, and your zazen is peaceful and calm - it becomes a place to weather the storm.

Outside, the storm is scary, but inside the zazen hut - its fury gets dulled.

The storm is necessary though. And I think that the more you can accept the 'mess' as it is, a part of life, then the desire to go inside the zazen hut for protection goes away, and you find that you just go into the zazen hut when it's time to get in the zazen hut. Life isn't easy, brother. For example - my week has been crazy. My truck stopped working, I ran out of money, a job I applied for so that I can get out of the one I have now hasn't gotten back to me (they told me they would by yesterday) had to rent a vehicle, got into a gigantic argument with my wife last night, etc. etc. etc. The list really does go on. So I get it, and I get how easy it can become to use zazen as a shield.

Thing is, once that bell goes off, when the time for sitting is over, life is still there, waiting in all it's messy glory. Many people, most I would venture to say, see a storm and start thinking about the destruction it can cause, and the fear it instills. But there is a sort of savage beauty there too. The very nature of Nature, unbound and unrestrained. Life is like that, a splash from every tube of paint on the canvas, a real mess, but with a chaotic majesty none the less.

Re: DONUT ZEN

I think you know that because your life is a mess, and therefore most likely hectic and crazy and stressful, and your zazen is peaceful and calm - it becomes a place to weather the storm.

Thanks. I didn't see that before.

When I say "mess" it is a bit tongue in cheek. My life is actually pretty damn good. My zazen is so great lately because when I sit it is like a lid opening and all the garbage I carry around bubbles up and I see it for what it is and let it go. I become whole. Then I get up and go about my life and get caught up in all the bubbles again. I am making progress in sitting but I don't count it as much because I am having a difficult time translating that into my actual living of life. I have alot of baggage from how my past decisions have hurt more people than I can count. There is much damage and it was my selfish decisions that caused it. It caused a division in the family. Both sides have forgiven me but are not on speaking terms with each other. This is hard for me because, as the person who caused the shit, I deserved forgiveness last. Innocent people should not be held responsible/guilty for MY mistakes. You just can't change people. Not even yourself sometimes. THAT makes life a mess, realizing that when it comes to how we live REALITY we really don't have a choice. We think we do. But we don't. It is what it is.

Re: DONUT ZEN

I think you know that because your life is a mess, and therefore most likely hectic and crazy and stressful, and your zazen is peaceful and calm - it becomes a place to weather the storm.

Thanks. I didn't see that before.

When I say "mess" it is a bit tongue in cheek. My life is actually pretty damn good. My zazen is so great lately because when I sit it is like a lid opening and all the garbage I carry around bubbles up and I see it for what it is and let it go. I become whole. Then I get up and go about my life and get caught up in all the bubbles again. I am making progress in sitting but I don't count it as much because I am having a difficult time translating that into my actual living of life. I have alot of baggage from how my past decisions have hurt more people than I can count. There is much damage and it was my selfish decisions that caused it. It caused a division in the family. Both sides have forgiven me but are not on speaking terms with each other. This is hard for me because, as the person who caused the shit, I deserved forgiveness last. Innocent people should not be held responsible/guilty for MY mistakes. You just can't change people. Not even yourself sometimes. THAT makes life a mess, realizing that when it comes to how we live REALITY we really don't have a choice. We think we do. But we don't. It is what it is.

gassho
Greg

Well, that's the beauty of this path. We understand that each moment is a whole new existance and we need not be the slaves of the karma of our past. We can understand it, see it for what it was, and atone for it as best we can, as geniunely as possible. We all make mistakes and some of them are motivated by the more nefarious parts of human nature, and I don't mean to say that we can hardly be held accountable for the mistakes of our past, but if we attain a measure of realization from them, learn from them and try to be clear of them, then we can say, "yes I did that, and I'm not proud of it, but I am working towards acting from a place of clarity and stillness."

As for carrying around the baggage of past deeds:

Two Buddhist Monks were on a journey, one was more senior than the other. During their journey they approached a rough and raging river. On the river bank they saw a young woman. She was clearly in need of help to cross to the other side of the river without drowning.

The junior monk walked straight past her without giving it a thought and crossed the river. The senior monk offered to help the woman and carried her across the river. Once across they parted ways and the two monks continued on their journey.

As the journey continued, the senior monk could see that the junior monk had something of concern on his mind, and asked what was wrong. The junior monk replied, "How could you carry that woman like that? You know we can't touch women, it's against our way of life". The senior monk answered, "I left the woman at the rivers edge a long way back, why are you still carrying her?"

Re: DONUT ZEN

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss.

Take out the middle sentence and we get:

Originally Posted by ghop

My life is a mess. But my zazen is borderline bliss.

Now, if you want my opinion (I'm no expert, but I think I can relate on terms of personal experience), we can take the above and with a little creative editing, we might find ourselves here:

Originally Posted by ghop

my zazen is borderline bliss because My life is a mess.

emphasis added.

I think you know that because your life is a mess, and therefore most likely hectic and crazy and stressful, and your zazen is peaceful and calm - it becomes a place to weather the storm.

Outside, the storm is scary, but inside the zazen hut - its fury gets dulled.

Some lovely teachings in this thread!

Zazen will never make all of life's storms go away (It will make some go away or settle ... if those storms we make primarily by the stormy mess of thoughts and emotions in our heads!). But it will not make all of the rainy and thundery storms of this turbulent life go away. (As I often say, Zazen will not even fix a flat tire ... just perhaps allow one to be 'at one' with the flat and the bother of changing it! 8) )

Zazen is rather limited if seen as just a "few minutes of quite refuge from the storms" while we sit on a Zafu. Oh, it can be that too!

However, the real Power of this Practice is when we rise up from the Zafu and take our Zazen with us back into the fray! Then, it can be for us the quiet eye at the center of the terrible storm.

Better said: There is stillness right in all the chaos and motion, quiet that is heard in the terrible noise, peace as one's tightly held possessions are blown around or away. We may batten down the hatches, close the portholes and try to head away from the rocks ... but we also allow the storm to blow.

That is why we do not close our eyes or run away from life in this Practice. Zazen is life, life (sunny or rainy, even life's tornadoes) is Zazen.

We may learn to access the stillness and quiet ... but we can learn to do so even when life feels anything but "still and quiet".

Re: DONUT ZEN

We have very good teachers here!!!

Not much to add. Don't want to talk really. The thing is , the eye of the storm is perfectly still. So is the big picture where storm is jsut a speck of dust. In sitting we embrace this often chaotic thing called life. Living the chaotic moment, we may find a sitting space.

Re: DONUT ZEN

My response is simply, `One does does not need to sit zazen - one only needs to live`.

Flame as you wish, but does one truly need to sit zazen - yes it`s helpful for practice, but if life is ``just this``, why would we practice and not simply do or be what we are (without the bullshit)

Hi,

One does not need to sit Zazen ... thus we sit. Sitting oneself on one's Zafu is The Whole and Total Selfless Action, With Not A Thing More To Do, No Other Place To Go ... and thus needs to be practiced.

If one cannot find the time for that, even a few minutes ... then it is all so much harder for ourself to know all of this life, on or off the Zafu (although the Zafu can never truly be stepped off) as The Whole and Total Selfless Action, With Not A Thing More To Do, No Other Place To Go. If one cannot sit still and quiet for a little time, how will one learn to encounter the Timeless Stillness Selfless Quiet that is in both stillness and movement, quiet and noise?

If one cannot find in life a short moment, Whole and Timeless, to sit Zazen ... then how much harder to find Zazen that is all of life ... even in the things we must do and do not wish to do?

Re: DONUT ZEN

I have wanted to reply to this post and have returned to it and read it several times. Now I have a chance not only to reply, but to reply again, as my post has evaporated!

Let me put Greg's orginal post here:

Originally Posted by ghop

I don't expect my zazen to have fruit filling. But how does one get past the desire for sweetness, in zazen, in relationships, in life?

My life is a mess. Some of my relationships are too. But my zazen is borderline bliss. And I'm afraid I'm getting addicted. What do I do? Stop sitting? I'm afraid Reality is going to rip me a "new one." I have enough trouble with my "old one."

Any sages here? Help!

gassho
Greg

Right now, zazen is a fruit filled donut for you--So far so good.
Your life and some relationships are a mess, but zazen is bliss--Some things are not so good, some things are good. OK.
You are afraid you are getting addicted. You are afraid of what Reality may do to you. What should you do?

I am no sage, but fools can be of service too!

Addiction.
To my way of thinking, addiction is an extreme way to manage impermanence, a see/saw approach to equinimity.
Addiction is a complex constellation of thoughts/behaviors/actions with physiological components. An 'apache'* (see below) dance so to speak of love/hate; adoration/disdain; yearning/revulsion.

While I have heard that people can become attached to sitting (addicted, if you will), my experience with sitting is that over time zazen is its own antidote to any attachment one might form to zazen (whether the attachment is of a positive or negative nature).
And, there are books out there on zen and the brain that describe how zazen can rewire neural pathways.

You, Ghop are the 'new one' Reality has 'ripped' for itself!

facing the wall, the wall is the blank screen for my thoughts: the well worn rutted ones, the mundane, the novel, the creative ones, the self aggrandizing and the self deprecatory ones
there are spaces between those thoughts
sometimes a little more space between those thoughts
There is a spaciousness, a vast spaciousness in that space between those thoughts.

You ask what you should do?
I would hazard to say you are already doing what you 'should':

You are sitting!

You are your own bodhisattva, you are included in your own vows to save all sentient beings. All teachers I have had advise setting aside a specified amount of time to sit, and recommend a time of day to sit. No more, no less. I never heard a teacher advise anyone to sit 'more' when zazen is pleasant, sweet, and blissful or sit less or skip sitting entirely when sitting is not pleasant.

sitting with bliss
what could be better than this?
sitting with doubt
what's that all about
sitting in wonder
silence is thunder
sitting with a wall
sitting with it ALL
that's all
that's all

---------------------------------
in gratitude to all teachers
past, present and future
may we all realize the buddha way together
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(*you know--the French dance with the guy in a beret and dangling cigarette and dark clothes, the woman with the hair in a pony-tail, a white striped boat neck top and they 'mime' domestic violence--he, pushing her aside, dragging her by her ponytail, she clutching at his pants leg...)

Re: DONUT ZEN

Keishin wrote:

oh boy, just lost my entire post!

will try to recapture the thoughts....

P.S. This happened to me before :cry: . I think I may know why. It happend to me after a long post onetime! Treeleaf will log you out after a certian ammount of time. If you're like me, there are times when you can go on and on and on writing. Without saving or previewing(ways to let the system know your still online) you will be considered inactive and get logged out automatically. So next time try to preview what you are writing often just to let the computer know you're still alive(I am assuming of course that you still will be and not have bitten the big one while in the middle of posting :shock: . In which case it really wouldn't matter if you got bumped out anyway!).

Re: DONUT ZEN

Originally Posted by Keishin

You are your own bodhisattva, you are included in your own vows to save all sentient beings. All teachers I have had advise setting aside a specified amount of time to sit, and recommend a time of day to sit. No more, no less. I never heard a teacher advise anyone to sit 'more' when zazen is pleasant, sweet, and blissful or sit less or skip sitting entirely when sitting is not pleasant.

sitting with bliss
what could be better than this?
sitting with doubt
what's that all about
sitting in wonder
silence is thunder
sitting with a wall
sitting with it ALL
that's all
that's all

this is brilliant because it is all heart
i envy your realization
thank you so much for posting this

Re: DONUT ZEN

So this is an update to my original post.

Reality has found a way to take all the sweetness out of my zazen.

No more donuts. Not even bagels.

I've been doing most of my "sitting" in a hospital chair overlooking my mother as she learns how to be dependant on others for such simple things as lifting a cup of water, or lifting her own body to make it to the plastic bedside toilet to pee. Maybe I should've posted this on the FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS forum. Because let me tell you, this past week has really taught me the "truth" of the First Noble Truth. There is alot of suffering going on inside her room, and I lose touch with the fact that every room in that hospital is full of suffering. And just as I'm about to despair in the face of such a truth Reality keeps moving forward to the next thing and very often the next thing is the THIRD NOBLE TRUTH: WEll-Being is possible ( I know some of you dislike that interpretation, but it works for me, for now). Doctors and nurses do what they can to help comfort her and hopefully cure her...friends and family bring love and kindness and jokes and [i]some[i] relief. In other words, there is much suffering. But there is also much compassion, much giving, much metta. This world is like a plum, some of it bitter, some of it sweet, all of just what it is...a perfect fruit constantly changing into something else, yet always just this. Times like these make me most thankful for this practice, and this sangha. Also many thanks to Jundo for the vision to launch this thing that has challenged, guided, and comforted me. May all beings be happy, healthy, and free from suffering. May all beings live in peace and harmony.

Re: DONUT ZEN

Originally Posted by ghop

I've been doing most of my "sitting" in a hospital chair overlooking my mother as she learns how to be dependant on others for such simple things as lifting a cup of water, or lifting her own body to make it to the plastic bedside toilet to pee. Maybe I should've posted this on the FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS forum. Because let me tell you, this past week has really taught me the "truth" of the First Noble Truth. There is alot of suffering going on inside her room, and I lose touch with the fact that every room in that hospital is full of suffering. ... Also many thanks to Jundo for the vision to launch this thing that has challenged, guided, and comforted me. ...

Hi Greg,

Endless concern and love for your mother, your entire family and you. Our Zazen sittings, Services and such will be all dedicated to your mother's well being and peace.

You know, this "Treeleaf thing" was started in part because I was sitting in hospital rooms with my own sick mother for months and months, flying back and forth between Japan and Florida every few weeks. It is for that reason that I became familiar with all the internet resources that make this place. It is dedicated to my mother too.

It was also hard to see her reduced to being a child ... yet my wife and I also had a small child at the time in diapers. Why are we so charmed by the infant who is dependent on us for aid and care, but so sad to see our elders return to be as pure as infants, needing our aid and care? Please sit with that, and sit with the fact that this life is framed by our being like children. When my mother was sick, reduced to a childlike state, I tried to see no difference from the little baby grandchild we brought to visit her. Who is it who judges so-called "endings" as to be mourned, but "beginnings" as a celebration? Who sees "endings" and "beginnings" as standing apart, or even truly there? Celebrate it all! (even as we may mourn too, joy and tears at once!).

On another thread, the story of the mustard seed was mentioned. Yes, it applies to growing old and sickness too ... Can you collect a mustard seed from a house that has not been touched by these things?

Re: DONUT ZEN

Thank you all for the metta. It means so much. Really.

And Jundo...thanks for all you said. Let me just ponder all that for the next five thousand years :wink: . There's alot of deep wisdom there. Why is it that joy just leaves us wanting more joy, yet suffering sobers, humbles, and teaches us in a way nothing else can? Thank you for sharing your story with me. This life seems to be about letting go...maybe there's something to that zafu after all.

Re: DONUT ZEN

Originally Posted by ghop

Thank you all for the metta. It means so much. Really.

And Jundo...thanks for all you said. Let me just ponder all that for the next five thousand years :wink: . There's alot of deep wisdom there. Why is it that joy just leaves us wanting more joy, yet suffering sobers, humbles, and teaches us in a way nothing else can? Thank you for sharing your story with me. This life seems to be about letting go...maybe there's something to that zafu after all.

gassho
Greg

I would like to underline again that, in a Buddhist meaning anyway ... there is a difference between 'suffering' (Dukkha) and sadness, pain, loss and the like.

Sadness, happiness, sickness and health, times of well being and physical pain, birth and death, gain and loss ... these are what happen in life. These, however, are not "Dukkha".

Suffering is what is added to all that when we cling, run from/toward or push away all that in life.

Re: DONUT ZEN

Thank you brother, cannot agree more. What Jundo is pointing out is very hard to accept : we cannot get away with the downs of life. What we can do, just like with thoughts-clouds in Shikantaza. is to let them pass by, not clinging, not identifying, not running. If we buy the fairy tales and the wonder stories ( many of them, every religion, economical system, every society manufactures these would be options) that one day everything will be perfectly as we wish...we are in for a very difficult ride.

Re: DONUT ZEN

Jundo wrote:
You know, this "Treeleaf thing" was started in part because I was sitting in hospital rooms with my own sick mother for months and months, flying back and forth between Japan and Florida every few weeks. It is for that reason that I became familiar with all the internet resources that make this place. It is dedicated to my mother too.

It's great to know this!
Thank you Jundo Sensei for sharing this little bit of history on what planted the seed which would grow into the tree which we now call Treeleaf _/_
I'm sure I will think of your mom from time to time when I visit here!

Re: DONUT ZEN

Hi Greg,

I'm just catching up on my forum reading after a hectic few weeks and wanted to pass on my best wishes for you and your mom. You shall both be in my metta and my thoughts. It is definitely a difficult time and I hope you find time for yourself in the midst of so much sorrow. But, as some relatively young fool says around here, "It's all good practice."

Re: DONUT ZEN

Originally Posted by Dosho

I'm just catching up on my forum reading after a hectic few weeks and wanted to pass on my best wishes for you and your mom. You shall both be in my metta and my thoughts. It is definitely a difficult time and I hope you find time for yourself in the midst of so much sorrow. But, as some relatively young fool says around here, "It's all good practice."

Thanks Dosho!

Originally Posted by Rev R

If I may ask, how is your life a mess?

Oh, it's nothing unusual. I just want things to be different than the way they are. I'm more sensitive to that part of me that constantly pulls/away from reality now that I sit zazen. My life is a mess, but it is a good mess. I am just at that point in life where I am watching my parents slowly come undone. It's supposed to happen that way. They have had good lives. But everything changes. I am getting crows feet around my eyes, grey hairs in my goatee. I have digestive trouble and often find myself anxious for no reason. My wife and I are going on our third year now trying for a baby. On and on and on. Bitching bitching bitching. See? It's a human mess. Just the usual stufffff. Maybe I should call it "Mess" with a capital M because it is a holy mess, if you will parden my religious talk. :wink: Peace brother.