The following discussion began on August 17, 2006 at the Operation Clambake forum. The topic is still very much active, as the Internet community and ex-members help discover and expose the Con Game called "scientology."

The first post by Arnie Lerma includes a audio file reading from the book, My Voice Will Go With You by Dr. Milton Erickson:

Lermanet.com quoted:

Pick up the cans please this is the session

This is how every "auditing" session starts

after a while scientologists become conditioned to enter a light trance state just upon the hearing of those words.

Full deep hypnosis, is sonambulant, the guy has eyes closed, and is deep in reverie watching something in his subconscious, real or imaged...

Light meditative trances are called 'daydreaming' , if you have ever been daydreaming only to have someone wake you up and bring your attention abruptly back to 'now' then you have been in at least a light trance.
Hubbard, instead of giving one direct commands oftimes would ask repetative questions that lead the answerer to mock up, the intended hypnotic suggestions.
The pomp, the setting, the ritual of the routing form, the arrangement of the two the chairs, the implied mysterious function of the E-meter, and all the fiddling with setting it up... all these things create an expectation of feeling better about something.

For those new to critical discussion of scientlogy, I would suggest you get aquainted with the Hubbard-the-hypnotist series. HERE is a good introduction within the series for scientologists and recovering scientologists. Lermanet.com hopes you will read all of the index links and become familiar with scientology - and in general - confidence games. Share these facts with law enforcement and your political representatives.

Once you have read those, or are already familiar with the material
goto the 12 minute Audio lecture, it is in Windows media format, only 1.54 Megabytes, so you should be able to listen even on a dial up.

What I do is read 5 pages out of a book titled, "My Voice Will Go With You"

The teaching tales of Milton H. Erickson, Edited with commentary by Sidney Rosen,. After listening I'd like to know what ex-scientologists think about it... it appears to me that the entirety of what Hubbard called "grade IV" release, in fact, could be and is attained routinely, by therapists using Erikson's techniques.. in 12 minutes... and $120, This lecture is about the "ability to do new things"

And I would really like to discuss what those who are willing to invest 12 minutes learning about Milton Erickson's techniques think about this stuff

mr. bad quoted:

Hi Arnie,

Here are my thoughts on this subject:

Reverie, which elron says is not hypnosis, but then goes on to say it is kind of like the inbetween place of conscious and subconscious where no hypnotic commands are to be given. In other words, he imediately contradicts himself.

Basically, elron wanted people to access the subconscious and remove portions of it.

Once pieces of the subconscious are remove a void is created. So, the questions is---What fills in the void?? The answer is elron's policies like KSW.

Elron was clever in that he knew a person didn't need to be fully in a hypnotic trance in order to be given "commands."

So, in $cientology, we see a further progression towards becoming a RONDROID. With auditing, subconscious is removed and replaced with elron's conscious or to be more specific--elron's policies.

And when you consider that elron was a heartless manipulative swindler who only cared about his drugs, his money, and the violence he could inflict on his enemies--you can see the path that all $cientologists are headed down.

It's an extremely dark place.

lermanet.com quoted:

What can be done to safeguard against covert manipulations, and how
does one resist covert, unethical forms of hypnosis? The literature
suggests that three factors may be important in developing resistance:

self-knowledge,

fund of general information, and

specific knowledge about the psychology of manipulation.

First, becoming acquainted with the social psychology of manipulation
and attitude change will be an asset to understanding mind control. A
brief summary of selected research findings in this area suggests the
following:

Manipulators often start with making minor requests. Getting
people to perform small and relatively unrisky acts now will make it
more likely that they will perform larger, more difficult and riskier
tasks later. Corollary: giving in now to "minor" requests that are
mildly uncomfortable makes it difficult to refuse more difficult and
unsettling requests in the future (Freedman, Carlsmith, & Sears, 1974,
pp. 395-397).

Manipulators often seem unusually friendly, concerned and
sincere. When people perceive that someone likes them or cares about
them, they listen less critically to what is told to them and are also
less apt to think negatively about the communicator (Zajonc, 1968).
Corollary: "love bombing" (being made the center of attention and the
target of an unusual amount of praise, affection, etc.) makes it hard
to disagree or resist.

Manipulators do not immediately ask for agreement, they ask
people to "try it" with an "open mind." Getting people to behave in a
manner that is somewhat contrary to their current belief system will
often result in changed attitudes (Deutsch & Krauss, 1965; Festinger &
Carlsmith, 1968). That is, acting on requests to "try it before you
reject it" and assurances that "you can disagree with what you are
doing even as you do it" often leads to changes in belief systems,
especially if the subject is not overtly rewarded (e.g., by being
paid) for performing the new behavior.

Manipulators use group pressure. It is difficult, especially
over long periods of time, to be the only one in a group to disagree
(Jones & Gerard, 1967, pp. 331-386). It can be painful to feel
rejected or different, and sometimes even more painful to think of
oneself as someone who has trouble tolerating rejection. Hence, people
conform but are not always willing to admit to themselves that they
are conforming (i.e., responding to group pressure). People
rationalize instead, and claim it was their "free choice" to change.

Manipulators do not make things easy. People actually place
more value on their actions if the task to be performed is somewhat
unpleasant or difficult, even if it did not need to be unpleasant or
difficult (Festinger, 1957). Corollary: making a task artificially
"tough" typically makes it appear more meaningful and important than
it may in fact be.

Having a specific knowledge of experimental/theoretical as well as
practical hypnosis is also important to resistance. What are the
implications of role taking in hypnosis, for example? This theory
suggests that, by "pretending" to be in hypnosis, people can in fact
become more suggestible and open to influence. Research on classical
and "nonclassical" (e.g., Ericksonian) forms of hypnosis suggests the
following:

It is possible to be hypnotized without being aware of the
induction process. Most hypnotic phenomena, including carrying out
posthypnotic suggestions, have been produced in subjects who were not
aware of being in hypnosis (Erickson, Rossi, & Rossi, 1976).

Hypnosis begins with a shift in attention (Hilgard, 1968).
Attention is normally motile. That is, it is dynamic and is relatively
freely focused on a variety of events within a large perceptual field;
it moves back and forth between the external (e.g., actions and events
"outside" the self) and the internal (e.g., thoughts and feelings).
Trance is a state that involves relatively focused, fixed or immotile
attention. Corollary: anyone or anything that results in decreased
motility of attention is highly likely to induce an altered state of
consciousness ("trance") whether or not it is labeled "hypnosis."

The language of hypnosis is marked by vagueness,
overgeneralizations, metaphors and abstractions. Classical inductions
are not the only way to "talk hypnosis" (although they can be found in
many "meditation" techniques not overtly labeled as hypnosis).
Nonclassical inductions use "normal" conversation and storytelling,
often directed at more than one representational system (e.g., sight,
sound and touch) to shift attention, in part by activating the
subject's tendency to search within him— or herself in order to find
ways of relating what is being said now to experiences in the past
(Bandler & Grinder, 1975). Corollary: words that sound "deep" or
meaningful but feel confusing (and/or strangely calming) can induce
trance outside the subject's awareness.

In trance, memories, fantasies, feelings and thoughts are
often experienced more vividly and intensely than they are in the
normal "waking" state (Hilgard, 1981). If a person is unaware of being
in trance, or is unfamiliar or unconvinced of the phenomenon of
hypnotic enhancement of perception, fantasy and suggestibility, then
that person is likely to attribute the vividness and intensity of the
trance experience to some special characteristic of the message and/or
communicator. That is, the person links his/her feelings of intensity
with what has been said or who has said it, not with how (i.e.,
hypnotically) it was said. The message is therefore experienced as
"more real" or "more true" than other messages, and the communicator
of the message is endowed with extraordinary (or even supernatural)
characteristics or skills.

Hypnosis involves powerful transference. The induction
process involves establishing and utilizing rapport, and hypnosis is
perhaps first and foremost an interpersonal process (Fromm, 1979).
Most subjects, after being hypnotized, feel closer, more trusting, and
more positively about their operator than before. It is always more
difficult to objectively assess someone (or what that someone says)
after a powerful transference relationship has developed.

Hypnosis involves the suspension of "normal" logic. Trance
logic is characterized by, among other things, lack of criticalness
and the ability to hold two contradictory beliefs as true without one
canceling out the other (Orne, 1959). Thus, in trance one can have the
sensation of cold and still be aware of being seated in a warm, heated
room. Corollary: in trance, people can accept notions or ideas that
they would otherwise reject because they contradict other beliefs
known to be based in reality. For example, the members of one
Hindu-based cult believe that the space program is a hoax and yet may
listen to and accept weather reports based on satellite pictures.

One's fund of general information (e.g., philosophy, comparative
religion and history) can be vital in resisting manipulation. Perhaps
more important, however, is an awareness of the limits of one's
knowledge base, and a willingness to add knowledge when one is unsure
of the validity of what is being said. For example, a new form of
so-called psychotherapy might claim to be "the modern science of
mental health." What makes a discipline a "science?" In part, it is
the acceptance and utilization of a very specific method of inquiry
that has uniform steps for positing hypotheses and validating them.
What are these steps? When these steps are not followed, what risks to
validity are usually encountered? What is the "scientific method?" If
uncertain, one should seek the answers to these questions before
accepting any claim as being "scientific." Similarly, groups or
individuals may claim that their beliefs and/or practices are based on
scriptural passages, history, research or other literature with which
one is unfamiliar; before accepting anything else said, it is wise to
check these references for their accuracy. In addition, the following
steps might be helpful:

"Paraphrase other peoples' thoughts both aloud and to
yourself to see if you're understanding clearly." Dr. Zimbardo and his
associate, Susan Andersen, recommend that if a message, book or
lecture is difficult to understand, repeating the central points in
one's own words might help (Andersen & Zimbardo, 1980). Ask questions.
If the answer is equally or more puzzling, a mental "beware" alarm
should sound. The same alarm should go off if the answer is something
like "well, you will understand more later" or "of course you can't
understand now, you're too [nonspiritual, unenlightened, intellectual,
ignorant, materialistic, rigid, unaware, unconnected with your
feelings, etc.]."

Do not relate personal experiences, thoughts or feelings, or
make any kind of confession that may be harmful should the information
be released, Anderson and Zimbardo (1980) warn. Confidentiality is not
automatic: nonlicensed/noncredentialed therapists and their clients
may not come under the protection of state doctor-patient
confidentiality laws. Groups or individuals that pressure people to
reveal personal information may be acting unethically.

Put off any and all decisions until after the group
experience is over, and then decide only after obtaining other
information or consulting with trusted confidants.

Outside interests and social contacts are vital, state
Zimbardo and Anderson, and any group that makes an overt or subtle
appeal to sever these bonds should be rejected. These outside sources
are usually instrumental in providing reality-oriented feedback, and
in helping to maintain a sense of personal continuity (i.e., a sense
of knowing "where I came from").

Any group or individual that arouses guilt to an
uncomfortable level should be carefully checked out and probably
avoided.

Have at least one good friend who is a "natural born"
skeptic or critic. Or, if in a possible mind control situation
already, seek out known "doubters" within that group. Put off feeling
guilty about doubts for a day or two; discuss doubts now.

Thank you, Arnie. I've found that this one topic - more than any other - Scientologists just will not address. I've raised it over & over here and no Scntst will discuss even the possibility that there is a hypnotic component to auditing. Fascinating. The anti-hypnosis line must be soooo thoroughly drummed into them.

Lermanet.com quoted:

The Prince and the Magician

Once upon a time there was a young prince who believed in all
things but three. He did not believe in princesses, he did not
believe in islands, he did not believe in God. His father, the king,
told him that such things did not exist. As there were no princesses or islands in his father's domains, and no sign of God, the
prince believed his father.

But then, one day, the prince ran away from his palace and
came to the next land. There, to his astonishment, from every
coast he saw islands, and on these islands, strange and troubling
creatures whom he dared not name. As he was searching for a
boat, a man in full evening dress approached him along the shore.
"Are those real islands?" asked the young prince.

"Of course they are real islands," said the man in evening
dress.

"And those strange and troubling creatures?"
"They are all genuine and authentic princesses."
"Then God must also exist!" cried the prince.

"I am God," replied the man in evening dress, with a bow.
The young prince returned home as quickly as he could.
"So, you are back," said his father, the king.

"I have seen islands, I have seen princesses, I have seen God,"
said the prince reproachfully.

"Tell me how God was dressed."
"God was in full evening dress."
"Were the sleeves of his coat rolled back?"

The prince remembered that they had been. The king smiled.
"That is the uniform of a magician. You have been deceived."
At this, the prince returned to the next land and went to the
same shore, where once again he came upon the man in full
evening dress.

"My father, the king, has told me who you are," said the
prince indignantly. "You deceived me last time, but not again.
Now I know that those are not real islands and real princesses,
because you are a magician."

The man on the shore smiled.

"It is you who are deceived, my boy. In your father's king-
dom, there are many islands and many princesses. But you are
under your father's spell, so you cannot see them."

The prince pensively returned home. When he saw his father,
he looked him in the eye.

"Father, is it true that you are not a real king, but only a
magician?"

The king smiled and rolled back his sleeves.
"Yes, my son, I'm only a magician."

"Then the man on the other shore was God."
"The man on the other shore was another magician."
"I must know the truth, the truth beyond magic."
"There is no truth beyond magic," said the king.

The prince was full of sadness. He said, "I will kill myself."
The king by magic caused death to appear. Death stood in the
door and beckoned to the prince. The prince shuddered. He
remembered the beautiful but unreal islands and the unreal but
beautiful princesses.

"Very well," he said, "I can bear it."

"You see, my son," said the king, "you, too, now begin to be
a magician."

Reprinted from The Magus, by John Fowles,
Dell Publishing Co., Inc.; pp. 499-500.

songbird quoted:

Actually, now that I think about it a little further, I did have one good conversation on this subject with Ladayla. Link here

I confess that I have trouble understanding why Scientologists aren't curious about this. If it were suggested to me that some important activity on which I was spending a lot of time (and money) involved hypnosis, I'd be intrigued...I'd want to know more. They're aware that LRH had extensive experience as a hypnotherapist before developing Dianetics; wouldn't it make sense that some hypnotic techniques might have been incorporated into Dianetics and Scn? But there seems to be no questioning about this at all among (most) Scientologists. A puzzlement for sure, to me.

Here's a thought-provoking essay:

Scientology and hypnosis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard studied, practised and lectured on hypnosis, and there is evidence he implemented hypnotic techniques in certain Scientology practices.

Evidence
Researchers believe that Scientology techniques involve what is termed authoritative hypnosis. In much of Hubbard's Scientology and Dianetics writings, he would redefine common words replace them with a term he created. According to The Anderson Report, Hubbard has done this with hypnotic phenomena also. It is also believed that Hubbard has attributed spiritual significance to the results of the hypnosis. Among the terms that Hubbard has used for documented stages of unconsciousness experiences in hypnosis are:
-- anaten - abbreviation for "analytical attenuation" (mental slowdown)
-- boil-off - usually characterized by excessive yawning
-- dope-off - going "dumb" or staring blankly
-- mental image pictures (hypnotic hallucinations). Said to be eliminated by "clearing" the individual.
-- exteriorization (dissociation)

Authoritative Hypnosis
At almost every stage of hypnosis, there are parallels with scientology auditing. People who desire to be hypnotized, or are expecting to be hypnotized, more readily succumb to hypnotic processes. It is not necessary that a person expects to be hypnotized. The person may not be aware of the meaning of hypnosis or of what is involved in it. It is found that the subject will readily go into hypnosis, even though he may be unaware of the technical name of the treatment he is receiving or the fact that he is, or is about to be, in hypnosis.

Requirements for authoritative hypnosis
-- Subject expects to receive treatment and he makes himself ready and available to the practitioner for the treatment that is to be applied
-- Subject is ready to accept direction from the practitioner and the consequences or the results of such treatment
-- Subject is a willing subject and is more or less consciously under the domination of the practitioner.

Scientology Auditing and Authoritative Hypnosis
There are two participants in auditing, the auditor and the preclear.
In hypnosis/hypnotherapy, the auditor would be the "hypnotist" and the preclear would be the "subject" or "patient."
As in standard hypnosis, the subject is aware that he is to be "processed", though he does not know the process. Although auditing procedures are called by non-hypnotic names, they are hypnotic processes.

Auditing and Similarities with Hypnosis
The Scientology hypnosis begins with an unvarying routine: Standard preliminary questions such as, "Is it alright if I audit you in this room?" and "Is it alright if we start the session now?"

After the subject has been relaxed by these preliminary questions, the hypnotist then commences the session with a loudly uttered, "Start of session," which is designed to impress upon the subject that the auditor had begun the really serious part of the auditing. Such a dramatic and startling procedure conditions the already expectant subject for the exercises or events which follow.

The subject is expecting to be "taken in hand" by the hypnotist. A person who is very expectant is a very ready subject for hypnosis. In future sessions, a hypnotic condition can be induced in some subjects merely by repeating the settings of a past hypnosis. In scientology, where processing goes on day after day, the return to the same hypnotist and to the same place and to the same ritual readily predisposes the expectant subject to submission to scientology's hypnotic techniques and to a return to the hypnotic state.

In scientology hypnosis, there is a bond established between the subject and the hypnotist, and scientology techniques are developed and designed to maintain this bond during the whole of the session; it is considered bad auditing if this bond is broken, and techniques are prescribed for remedying the break.

In hypnosis, a degree of dependency develops and the expert, practitioner is on guard against, and realises the potential danger of, this condition. In authoritative hypnosis this dependency is allowed to develop, often with harmful results. Scientology allows this hypnotist/subject bond to develop without restraint. It persists after the hypnosis has finished and has significance in the desire of the subject to return again and again for further "auditing". In the case of some subjects there has been a quality of almost desperate dependency on the hypnosis sessions.

Atavistic regression
Another significant characteristic of hypnosis is what is referred to as the atavistic regression of the subject, "regression" signifying the going back to some previous event or circumstance, and "atavistic" connoting and pertaining to ancestry and referring to the losing or dulling of more recently acquired biological activities, so that the subject becomes less alert, less critical, and may become almost childlike, with heightened respect for the hypnotist, the development or intensification of rapport and a desire on the part of the subject to identify himself more closely with the hypnotist. Many scientology hypnosis procedures are designed to initiate this regression.

If command hypnosis is unskilfully practised, hallucinations which have been created during hypnosis persist later as reality. Scientology calls these hypnosis-based halucinations "mental image pictures." They are experienced during an auditing (hypnosis) session and persist thereafter as reality and the subject comes to believe that the past experiences and activities conjured up during these hallucinatory periods really took place. This is why the upper "levels" of scientology are able to contain the Space Opera theories without much questioning by the members.

Hypnotic hallucinations
Frequently a subject who in auditing hypnosis has experienced hallucinations concerning murder, rape, and other criminal and disgraceful behaviour comes to believe that such behaviour actually occurred during his present lifetime. This results in feelings of anxiety, guilt and self-loathing and a desire for confession and self-abasement, all of which increase dependency on and domination of the hypnotist/auditor. Unlike traditional hypnotherapy, which helps the subject realize the unreal nature of hypnotic experiences and deal with halucinations realisticly and quickly, scientology sessions are designed to focus on hallucinations as reality and bring to light fresh ones.

One characteristic feature of hypnosis is the increased suggestibility of the subject, which the hypnotist can take advantage of. In the state of regression found in hypnosis, fantasies may be experienced which may be spontaneous or the result of suggestion. To the subject, these fantasies are apparently real and true experiences, and if authoritative hypnosis is used, these fantasies persist as reality.

Scientology hypnosis subjects are highly suggestible and readily conjure up past life experiences of a kind and along lines suggested by the auditor and by what Hubbard has written. Hubbard finds much of the material for his "research" in these hallucinations which are quite fanciful and often contain details of "past lives".

In hypnosis, it is not uncommon for the subject to experience disturbing hallucinations that relate to repressed things in his mind, such as hallucinatory homosexual experiences which a subject in his normal existence may never have experienced or entertained. Because of loss of repression, these thoughts become known to him in a hallucinatory form, and the subject is likely to experience extremely severe anxiety even to the extent of panic and self-loathing. A subject who, in passive hypnosis, has experienced these or similar thoughts and may have had feelings of revulsion while under hypnosis, may safely be brought out of hypnosis and no ill effects will follow; on the contrary, benefit may result and feelings of shame will not persist. However, if similar hallucinatory and shameful thoughts are conjured up in authoritative hypnosis there may be dangerous consequences. In scientology, subjects have frequently complained of morbid feelings of guilt and depression persisting after auditing/hypnosis.

Repetition
It is recognised in hypnosis that repetitive commands and the exercise of other hypnotic techniques are likely to induce regression in which the psychological mechanism of repression is less effective; when this relaxing or lessening of repression occurs, matters in the unconscious mind are allowed into consciousness, and the subject may be very ready to discuss quite freely many intimate and shameful matters in respect of which the subject would be greatly or entirely inhibited if not under hypnosis.

In scientology are many processes (such as the patter drill) including those which involve repetitive commands. These may lower barriers of restraint, lessen reticence, and cause a readiness to talk unreservedly about the most intimate and secret things and past shameful experiences. Some scientology techniques are designed to overcome reluctance on the part of the subject to "withhold" anything.

Hysteria
One of the features of hypnosis is that various psychological mechanisms operate in a more florid form; thus, while in ordinary life a person may show little manifestation of hysteric behaviour, under hypnosis he is far more likely to show hysteric behaviour. In scientology hypnosis it is almost standard practice for the subject to manifest some heightened hysterical features; many scientology files indicate that subjects have highly developed bouts of hysterical manifestation. (including recently documented sessions with actor Tom Cruise.)

Post hypnotic suggestion, which is an important feature of hypnosis, is the name given to the implanting during hypnosis of a command, belief or idea which is subsequently given effect to. Post hypnotic suggestions may be made in relation to ideas, beliefs, attitudes of mind and the like which the patient is to assume after coming out of hypnosis.

The Scientology hypnotist, in following the prescribed strict procedure for closing the session, inquires of the preclear whether the preclear has achieved his goals set for the session and any other gains and whether he is satisfied with the session. The hypnotist is still very much in control of the situation, for the subject, being in a state of hypnotic rapport with the hypnotist whose wishes are in effect his, is more likely to answer that the goals or some of them have been obtained and that the session has been a success. This is a form of post-hypnotic suggestion, and after the session the suggestion that the session was a success may persist.
Dangerous consequences may follow some post-hypnotic suggestions. If a post-hypnotic suggestion be given in hypnosis that the subject would not experience a particular symptom, e.g., a headache, after a session had ended, the subject might not experience a headache which normally he would have experienced, and thereby not be alerted to a possible medical condition, such as a brain tumour of which the headache would have been a warning sign.

Dissociation
In hypnosis, a condition which is described by psychiatrists as "dissociation", may be experienced by the subject: This is a feeling or sensation or belief on the part of the subject that for the time being he is outside his body. This is a complete delusion though it seems real enough to the subject who is experiencing it. If the processing is authoritative hypnosis, then the hallucination of having been outside one's body may persist after the session has concluded, and this may be dangerous to the mental health of the subject.

In scientology hypnosis, a state which the scientologists call "exteriorisation" is sometimes deliberately sought. Exercises and procedures for exteriorisation are the subject of a large part of Hubbard's instructional writings. This exteriorization, according to scientologists, is the actual departure of the thetan from the physical body to some position remote from the body. "Dissociation" and "exteriorization" are the same thing, produced by essentially the same means. Whereas in hypnosis, dissociation or exteriorization is recognised for what it is, namely, a feeling or sensation or belief on the part of the subject that he is outside his body, in scientology the subject is specifically told that the hallucination which he experienced did in fact occur as a reality and that the thetan has been exteriorized. In such circumstances the harmful effects of scientology hypnosis persist by inculcating in the mind of the preclear an entirely fallacious belief. A preoccupation with such beliefs, involving a refusal to face up to reality, may be dangerous to the mental health of the subject.

A command to "mock up" some object is a standard technique for the induction of hypnosis. Hubbard's writings, both in books and pamphlets, abound with descriptions of procedures which involve mocking up objects. A very great part of “The Creation of Human Ability” is devoted to the explanation of procedures which involve mocking up objects and/or exteriorization.

Ending of Session
Another important stage in hypnosis is the attention which both pay to the terminating of the session. A skilled hypnotist exercises great care in terminating a hypnotic session ; he has to be satisfied that the subject is ready to be returned to a normal state from the hypnotised state. Too rapid a transition from one state to the other may have harmful mental and emotional results. In scientology, there is as much strictness applied to terminating a hypnosis auditing session as there is to the starting of such a session. The hypnotist brings the subject up to "present time", usually running a "havingness" process for this purpose; he then enquires whether the session can be ended, and, when he has the subjects consent, he loudly proclaims "End of session" in much the same ritualistic way as he commenced the session.

Alert quoted:

This thread is so compelling inasmuch the whole 'hypnosis' things is ONLY evident when you walk away or were never under scientolospells. Thinking back to Hubbards Lectures and re-reading transcripts recently, Hubbard was EMPHATIC with the use of "see" and "you see" repeticiously. Right before our very eyes and ears are we DIRECTED to "see" what Hubbards is 'claiming' as valid and quantified. SEE! YOU SEE!
**vomits**

P.S. SongBird, I like how you describe Hypnotherapy as it's how I felt in regard to 'controlled' by an 'auditor' as opposed to being 'in control' in Hypnotherapy, like a co-operation sorta kinda..if that makes sense.

itsaline quoted:

You are right about the "you see"s. He said it soo often it used to completely annoy me - even as a devoted Scieno.

Lermanet.com quoted:

And "you see" you were NEVER SUPPOSED TO NOTICE

related to this, This is why I have found Robert Monroe's meditative home study tapes are sometimes so effective, as you practice creating trance states ( and enjoying the discovery of rummaging through your own subconscious, or whatever) their mere use, returns to the user, the ability to command and control their own "trance" states.

ONCE a being retakes control of his own trance state, all programming invoked by anyone else, during covertly invoked trance states, falls away.. much to the incredible relief of the participant and much to the ire of scientology.

I recommend THE GATEWAY SERIES, the first tape set... by Robert Monroe.

Well, in fact, in other materials Im reading by Milton Erickson, and I ve been looking for the cite for ten minutes,... uhm... he says that memories cannot actually be erased.

Sure, by suggestion certain things may be made to be invisible, but without constant re-enforcement, hypnosis fails.

hence you have

COME TO THE MEETING!

hence you have, TAKE YOUR NEXT STEP

hence you have using WISE/Scientology crap in your business...

AND we now have an explanation of why they send out so much bulk mail with the weird symbols and all..amd pictures of "Ron"

They are keeping their members trance states reactivated!!

Alert quoted:

I listened to your tape on wma(it ran like a gem) Arnie and relieved my first steps as a 10 month old kid. I must still be very receptive on some level, but thats not necessarily bad thing for me now that I dont have detrimental info flowing freely into me from dubious sources as hubbard. It was pretty freaky listening to what you read and how easily one can be influenced even at a conscious level. Ive got to make time to read through hubbards Research and Discovery Series. Ive briefly perused the first 1950 one and from what I see its all about hypnosis. As much of a drop-out hubbard was and a filthy lying scumbag, he said it all in his Philadelphia Doctorate Course about having new ways of making slaves (Creed even mentioned it in his latest Taped Lecture) in Lecture 20 of 52

Milton Erikson(sp) is very interesting to say the least and I'll ask my Dr about him next week. Ive seen that you get a fair bit of flack about de-programming Arnie, things is though..from what I gather people dont EVER go back when they have FULLY confronted scientology in the cold hard fact of light shining upon it exposing all the dark corners within its box. 'People' carry on about refernce regarding Nazism, Occult, Hypnosis being whacky concepts asin in comparisons to scientology..but it only takes a decent unobscured look at scientology and hubbard's own past to see that some of the professed whackiest notions are evidently closer than some people care to admit.

Hubbard was a Hypnotist
Hubbard was entrenched in Occult rituals with Parsons.
Hubbard's own Sea Org is comparative to the SS.

There are too many coincidences that match/fit for anything to be discounted, let alone hubbards writings/Lectures AND his own affirmations pre-dianetics.

re deprogramming, I can not give anyone grief about not coming forward, or walking away from scientology and not looking back..I was silent for ten years after I left working for scientology.

To decide to try and make a difference, is a moral decision that has to come from the heart.

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing, end them.
Hamlet (III.i.64-6Cool

The difference between getting deprogramming or just letting the effects and conditioning just wear off, is the difference between 'waking up' sufficiently to want justice... to want to take recourse in Federal or State courts, and doing so within the statute of limitations for fraud ( 2 years)

And Hubbard's Hitlerian Hubris is toxic to the soul. It will interfere with your relationships with others, it will slow your future spiritual progression.

Had I known of someone who I could have gone to for therapy I would have done so, but psychiatrists are so demonized... I could not consider it. Which, incidentally, is another reason that psychiatry is demonized, and another reason that scientology demonizes this activist.

Because every person is different... I find that each person I evaulate has Hubbard's black bubble gum stuck to different parts of them. I then address those ideas... and together, we explore the mechanics of their creation. And I should note that I learn much from the experience. Just as I have reached a point where everything scientology does or says about me, or others, teaches me.

Living in state of impairment, running remnants of hubbard's toxic operating system, has a solution, and that solution is deprogramming.

I admit my real CRIME in the eyes of Scientology, was to
GO TO THE SOURCE as Hubbard says, and so, I went TO THE SOURCES HUBBARD STOLE HIS IDEAS AND TECHNQUES FROM. After all, he was (like Scientology) but a thief, and had and has no power of his or their own, until they stole YOUR LIFE FORCE from you! And I help people to get their MANA back from Scientology!!

The question to ask yourself is how much is your life worth?

Do you really want to carry that stuff around with you??

RealityWillTell quoted:

A very noble cause you have taken up Arnie and I agree that deprogramming is probably a much more complete way of getting one's own mind back then letting it happen naturally over time. The added benefit of being able to go after CO$ before the statue of limitations runs out is just icing on the cake!

"I was unaware at the time that every time I did TR-O, I was going
into a hypnotic trance state. I only realized this years later, after
leaving the group, when I read about hypnosis and experienced a trance
state from a legitimate psychologist who did hypnosis on me. The state
I was in then was identical to the state I was in when I did TR-O."

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them.Hamlet (III.i.64-68)

"Sit down and think over that last spellbinder you heard on the platform, over the radio or on television.....Were you listening to a man of reason or to a hypnotist who aimed to limit your field of consciousness? You say you cannot be hypnotized against your will. Perhaps you were hypnotized last night as you listened to that political address over your TV.....The most dangerous hypnotist may be the man you listened to last week over the radio. You were his subject....As a matter of fact, you were a very excellent subject. Think it over....." George Estabrooks

who is also demonized by Scientology - do you have any doubt as to why?