Whitechapel - Notes From Warren 23apr10Tue, 03 Mar 2015 18:13:26 -0600http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/
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Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233339#Comment_233339
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233339#Comment_233339Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:14:23 -0500warrenellisNot so much the funnies, the stuff that is now really being done best on the web for the most part. The dramatic strips. The old, old stuff. I was reading a bunch of the old JEFF HAWKE strips last night, from the Sixties. Proper "Brits in space" stuff, DAN DARE-derivative. But Sydney Jordan was a wizard with black-and-white art, and William Patterson was a much more sophisticated writer than Frank Hampson and anyone in his crew.

Of course, you can count off things like JEFF HAWKE on your fingers and still have change. It's an antiquitous format, belonging to the days of Alex Raymond. The last really attractive attempt I saw to revive it was Travis Charest's handful of SPACEGIRL strips.

A difficult format, too. Hard to produce enough of a kick in those few panels to make people come back tomorrow. Which, of course, gave it a weird advantage, back then, because people bought newspapers. You were part of a confluence of reasons why people bought the paper, not the sole reason people came back every day. Which is why the humour model flourishes on the web -- you can crank off a gag in three panels, and if people laugh they'll bookmark you there and then. Getting enough plot or character or spectacle happening in the same space to make people want to come back tomorrow -- not so easy.

(Also, in a blog format, you're usually also looking at making the piece work at a width of 600 pixels. So you're unlikely to be working in "classic" strip format anyway.)

Newspaper strips are probably on the verge of being handed to the Dead Media Project, and assumed to have evolved into one end of the webcomic. I do think that's kind of a shame. I mean, I'm sure I'll be deluged in links to weird drama comics in the newspaper-strip format now -- I didn't see any in Webcomics Week, but I'm not done reading through that thread yet. And the format is more of a dice-roll in the game of capturing eyeballs than a humour strip. But the daily nature of blogging structure would seem to be a fit regardless.

Maybe I'll do something horrible to you in REMAKE/REMODEL next week. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233353#Comment_233353
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233353#Comment_233353Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:01:56 -0500jones?I liked that DC put the original Superman dailies on the web for free - it was a lot of fun to read. It's a shame that newspaper strips are on the decline. On the other hand, there is so much talent running through the webcomics scene. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233355#Comment_233355
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233355#Comment_233355Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:09:01 -0500DavidWynne
Which is why the humour model flourishes on the web -- you can crank off a gag in three panels, and if people laugh they'll bookmark you there and then. Getting enough plot or character or spectacle happening in the same space to make people want to come back tomorrow -- not so easy.

Ain't that the truth. I can think of at least two reasonably prominent webcartoonists who I know would rather be doing this kind of material but are doing funnies because that's what gets the eyes on the screen. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233358#Comment_233358
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233358#Comment_233358Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:15:45 -0500mister hexIt's sad and strangely fitting that Charles Schultz DIED the day the last Peanuts strip ran.

I have a fairly extensive collection of old B.C. paperbacks, old Wizard Of Id, Broom Hilda and ... um, even Family Circus collections. (ANOTHER p.o.s. strip that's still going, handed down to Keane's son, who either doesn't understand comedy or just plain hates his job.) They're not high art but they're at least enjoyable. Maybe that's just nostalgia, whistling in my ear ...

When I was a kid, Ernie Bushmiller's Nancy was the Butt Monkey of the comics page. Nowadays, the whole page is nigh-unreadable. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233360#Comment_233360
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233360#Comment_233360Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:20:19 -0500JohnnyWLooking on the Mirror website though, I don't think it lasted.

They are still running the 'Scorer' football stories however, which I enjoyed as a kid because they frequently contained boobs. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233361#Comment_233361
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233361#Comment_233361Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:21:25 -0500StefanJ
Prince Valiant on Sundays. That's about it. Everything else is humor. (Unless you count Doonesbury's continuing stories . . . like the current one about sexual predators in the military.)

Oh, wait. There's also Judge Parker, one of those old lady continuing drama strips. It's shoved back in the classified ad section. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233362#Comment_233362
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233362#Comment_233362Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:21:33 -0500Justin JordanWe've never had dramatic strips in the papers I've read and read, but as a creative challenge thingy I'm kind of interested. One of the trickier parts of adapting to the webcomic format for me is getting a pacing where the reader actually wants to come back while still having the thing feel like a cohesive whole for the collected edition.

If I could talk and artist into, I'd sure give a dramatic strip a shot. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233363#Comment_233363
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233363#Comment_233363Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:27:20 -0500Andre NavarroSo I was never treated to "brits in space" kind of strips, and looking at a few samples of JEFF HAWKE online, I am again convinced I was born in the wrong fucking country.

LIVING BY YOURSELF:Pros: You can watch the dirty movies that air late at night.Cons: But you'll sleep hugging your pillow.

This is the level of ocean-deep insight I was subjected to. And they made a movie out of this strip. I am surprised I ever developed a sense of humor at all.) ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233365#Comment_233365
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233365#Comment_233365Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:33:56 -0500helloMullerNotes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233396#Comment_233396
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233396#Comment_233396Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:04:32 -0500jamesmith3Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233397#Comment_233397
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233397#Comment_233397Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:08:23 -0500snafuAs for newspaper strips in general, I don't read them anymore. When I moved to Sydney I tried to follow a few I liked online, but just stopped after a while. I still visit www.sinfest.net everyday though. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233402#Comment_233402
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233402#Comment_233402Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:22:28 -0500bramclark
King Features have quite a few like The Phantom and Prince Valiant. Last Wednesday I went to a comic book store (don't get me started, next week i'm just going to burn a twenty dollar bill while reciting a litany on Why Comics Suck) and found a Spider-Man strip running in Comic Shop News. Sure it took me nearly twenty minutes to make up some story for my son as to why Spider-Man is in Miami fighting Sabretooth (wtf?) but there's still some out there. Quality is debatable and interest is minimal it seems.

I've always wondered why there wasn't more cross-talk between comic books and comic strips. Same medium, different delivery system. I was just flipping through a copy of Lust For Life on my not-a-smoke break. What Spider Watches On TV is in a six panel grid on a page. Slap them all on the same horizontal line and do a page a day and BOOM newspaper strip.

I also never understood why it was so hard to do something other than humour in this style. If you have only three panels to work within for a day and you know you have seven days to fill (Sunday papers tend to have longer episodes with colour over here but let's ignore that for now) then why not apply the three-act structure to the daily? Give us a set up, a worsening and then a resolution/cliffhanger for the three panels. You'd have to write and structure the thing a week at a time for daily publication so it makes some sort of sense I guess. But it's doable. Hell, it would seem to me that an adventure strip would be EASIER. Comedy (well, GOOD comedy) is probably the hardest thing to pull off.

Maybe posting on blogs isn't the route. What about sections on, let's say, news sites. Nobody would pay attention to a Wonder Woman newspaper strip, but having a daily Wonder Woman strip on Comic Book Resources or Newsarama would get read. Fit the content in with a site and you might get some traffic. A blog using that style would be dancing to the sound of crickets I fear... ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233411#Comment_233411
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233411#Comment_233411Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:00:21 -0500TF

I never read it but would miss it's absence. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233427#Comment_233427
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233427#Comment_233427Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:25:35 -0500256Modesty Blaise told long-form action stories and ran in newspapers 3-panels-a-day, every day, for more than 10,000 strips. Which goes some way to suggesting that the format is possible. It might help that, from what I've seen, the writing and art was consistently top notch.

I've only ever read it in collections, so I can't tell you what the experience of reading it day-by-day in a newspaper was like, but it's pretty bloody good. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233433#Comment_233433
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233433#Comment_233433Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:37:51 -0500Justin JordanNotes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233438#Comment_233438
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233438#Comment_233438Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:48:29 -0500warrenellis
Modesty Blaise told long-form action stories and ran in newspapers 3-panels-a-day, every day, for more than 10,000 strips. Which goes some way to suggesting that the format is possible.

THEY BOTH SUCK, although the Phantom 2040 cartoon was a fine piece of scifi

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Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233445#Comment_233445
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233445#Comment_233445Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:36:33 -0500NickDonaldUnfortunately, any newspaper in the world today would be as likely to publish a new adventure strip as they would to say "you know what? I think we've got enough ads in today's paper..."

As for the 3 panel adventure: You really do need to grab the reader on Monday, but if they don't read the paper on Tuesday they still need to be able to follow it come Wednesday. And 6-8 weeks later, they need to (sort of) remember how it started and not become aware of the daily story telling formula. Writing good adventure comics is really hard - Kelley Puckett and Mike Parobeck nailed it with the Batman Adventures in the 90s, but that was quintessential 22 page/3 act/4 colour gold. Is the difficulty of the format the reason Travis Charest did one "widescreen" panel for Space girl, rather than 3 square ones? Has the increased sophistication of production of visual media made the format redundant?

*Not sure how keen people would be on you piggy backing on their webcomics, though. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233482#Comment_233482
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233482#Comment_233482Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:46:37 -0500freakboxNotes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233485#Comment_233485
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233485#Comment_233485Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:56:15 -0500StefanJThe local paper runs this on Sunday, but oddly the strip's chance to strut its stuff in color ISN'T a dramatic story on that day; it's Mark Trail as tedious nature docent, telling us about invasive species and urban coyotes. And the art is mediocre.

Some papers run the three-panel continuing story strip. It's online too. But it's pretty tame stuff. Mark versus contraband fur peddlers, etc. (I think there would be potential in a revamp in which a scarred, half-insane Mark should go vigilante and start murdering global warming deniers and litterbugs.) ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233499#Comment_233499
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233499#Comment_233499Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:59:17 -0500BerserkerAnd of course, it doesn't depend on a huge industry to sustain itself in, like news strips did.

Nor does it even have to endure editorial input - though this may or may not be a good thing, overall.

I remember the Prince Valiant strips from the Sunday papers - I think those had a hand in my tastes even now. Those were always dense, being nice blocks of prose offset with those gorgeous illustrations. I was always curious as to why that approach wasn't tried more often, or successfully. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233501#Comment_233501
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233501#Comment_233501Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:38:19 -0500stsparky

I think I could work in that format. Thought he also finished the Star Wars daily that way but I was in error ...

Some info to be mined here - http://www.reuben.org/ncs/archive/divisions/strips.asp ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233523#Comment_233523
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233523#Comment_233523Sat, 24 Apr 2010 00:08:11 -0500Jay KayThe Kane strips that StSparky posted above me look amazing, though. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233538#Comment_233538
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233538#Comment_233538Sat, 24 Apr 2010 02:07:03 -0500oddbillBack then I recall in daily newspapers we had Spiderman, Star Hawks, a Star Wars strip, The Phantom, Dick Tracy (still, I'm pretty sure), and I think there was a Tarzan strip as well. These I actually remember reading myself, in the papr when I was young. There was also Prince Valiant in the Sunday comics section.

I recently read through a collection of Sky Masters, which was a Jack Kirby/Wally Wood space adventure newspaper strip (yes - Kirby and Wood) - and it was really fun but also kind of a disappointing read. The format really works against telling substantial stories. Everything comes off light as a feather popcorn adventure, which isn't bad in itself, but feels rather weak when read all at once.

Something about the early Alex Raymond Flash Gordons - I don't think it was easy to come by outlandish medieval space adventure filled with scantily clad women and lion headed men in any venue other than the papers. Even when the movie serials came out, it was still easier and more reliable to get your fix from the paper.

Spectacle is so much more easily come by these days in much more compelling venues - this paper strip format just can't compete on the level of spectacle anymore. But back in those days it absolutely did.

I'm having a hard time imagining what the two-tier daily strip format actually can do better today than other more easily obtainable media. Other than just being there every day, I can't think of anything it can do better than say animation, or a monthly comic, or a video game, or a television series, of a film.

Maybe there is value in just being a thing that refreshes once a day - but I'm not so sure. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233540#Comment_233540
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233540#Comment_233540Sat, 24 Apr 2010 02:52:10 -0500sneak046
'Tamara Drewe' by Posy Simmonds' (a modern reworking of Thomas Hardy's 'far the maddening crowd') - was serialized weekly in the guardian review between '05 and '07. Using (mostly) a 5x4 grid structure, which if memory serves me was approx a quarter of the size of the berliner format page.

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Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233547#Comment_233547
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233547#Comment_233547Sat, 24 Apr 2010 04:16:31 -0500warrenellisNotes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233549#Comment_233549
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233549#Comment_233549Sat, 24 Apr 2010 04:53:17 -0500Daniel_WarnerAlso, a daily update for THE PAPER -- a finite, printed piece that people bounce around in for a while is not going to work as a daily update for THE INTERNET or even an rss reader? ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233554#Comment_233554
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233554#Comment_233554Sat, 24 Apr 2010 06:05:01 -0500Paul SizerNotes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233557#Comment_233557
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233557#Comment_233557Sat, 24 Apr 2010 06:45:02 -0500warrenellis
Also, a daily update for THE PAPER -- a finite, printed piece that people bounce around in for a while is not going to work as a daily update for THE INTERNET or even an rss reader?

How do you figure? It just drops into the flow of the site you follow. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233562#Comment_233562
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233562#Comment_233562Sat, 24 Apr 2010 07:45:03 -0500Spinneyhead
webcomicsnation lets creators "tooncast" their strips. There's embedding code to show the most recent page of the comic on other sites, presumably with a link back to the archives.

I'm not sure how thoroughly the site's maintained these days, but some creators are still uploading new stuff to it. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233567#Comment_233567
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233567#Comment_233567Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:12:31 -0500AlbertoI can't remember of any dramatic strips in the newspapers here, but there used to be a entire supplement dedicated to kids every sunday. 12 pages of comics, funnies and puzzles including a spread of Alfonso Azpiri's Mot:A few years later they stopped commissioning and the entire supplement became syndicated. It ran for about 500 issues, up until last year when they were forced to cut expenses and It finally disappeared. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233569#Comment_233569
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233569#Comment_233569Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:36:25 -0500warrenellisNotes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233576#Comment_233576
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233576#Comment_233576Sat, 24 Apr 2010 10:18:33 -0500Berserker
ComicSpace has the tooncasting function built into it too. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233579#Comment_233579
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233579#Comment_233579Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:56:39 -0500michaelk42And the syndicate wasn't going to go out of its way to give us anything that wasn't perfectly safe and boring, because they know the editors really just want a reliable way to fill a set space and keep people's mouths shut. And the people that yell loudest want change the least. So everything stays the same.

I remember when I was a kid, before everything started getting shrunk down, we had Star Wars and even The White Mountains (Tripods) running on Sundays. We'll never see the like of that again in newspapers before they finally die as a daily printed object. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233601#Comment_233601
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233601#Comment_233601Sat, 24 Apr 2010 14:46:23 -0500Daniel_WarnerBTW -- the iPad solves this to some degree by limiting what you can do with it. Comics running on an iPad have already beat out streaming netflix, grooveshark, and chatroulette. If daily adventure strips stand a chance of surviving anywhere it's probably there. ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233609#Comment_233609
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233609#Comment_233609Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:41:14 -0500warrenellisNotes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233622#Comment_233622
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233622#Comment_233622Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:09:11 -0500frequentcontributorSo at least they're attempting some form of revival, even if treating it as a straight old-timey comic strip, instead of a sort of reinvention on their website in in their comics from week to week, etc.

I used to like Alley Oop and The Phantom, but thinking in terms of who might be able to pull something like this off today, in a manner I'd want to consistently read, my short list would be Masamune Shirow, Paul Pope, and Mark Millar (I guess and Grant Morrison, too... could Quitely do a daily?). Imagine those crazy futuristic Ghost in the Shell 2 pages evolved into whatever Shirow is toying with now, boiled down to a few sexy, violent, nonsensically technical panels put out every day (or every other...). Where do I sign up? ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233644#Comment_233644
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233644#Comment_233644Sat, 24 Apr 2010 21:43:08 -0500Jay KayI hadn't heard of those Cap stories, so nice catch. That does remind me, though--would Wednesday Comics count as these too? ]]>
Notes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233677#Comment_233677
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233677#Comment_233677Sun, 25 Apr 2010 03:53:31 -0500sveidNotes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233870#Comment_233870
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=233870#Comment_233870Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:22:42 -0500stsparkyNotes From Warren 23apr10http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=234209#Comment_234209
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8116&Focus=234209#Comment_234209Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:46:22 -0500rickiep00h