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Was the card Cavern of Souls made just to hurt the color blue in magic the gathering? Why stop people from countering a creature card when there are a thousand kill creature cards out there? The card Cavern of Souls made it to where you can no longer play an all blue deck. The person will just unleash something big and bad upon you that will end the game. A land card should never have this powerful of an effect. Cavern of Souls should of been a socery card that you play to stop the next creature card from being countered. There need to be a blue card that cost one blue mana and says destroy target land.

But should U/X control decks be forced to play an extremely marginal land (Ghost Quarter) to potentially counter something that activates immediately and has virtually no downside (Cavern). I don't think so. Even if you get a perfect answer to Caverns with a Ghost Quarter, you no longer have a tempo advantage. Oh, wait. Control needs tempo.

But should U/X control decks be forced to play an extremely marginal land (Ghost Quarter) to potentially counter something that activates immediately and has virtually no downside (Cavern). I don't think so.

that's the nature of the game, always has been. You side against things that own your deck. In this case Ghost Quarter would be a viable addition to your standard decks sideboard.

This isn't the simple issue of sideboarding a card to deal with a certain card. Caverns has no (significant) downside, can be played in every deck that cares about its creatures. So, am I going to lose the first game to board in Quarter for the next, or maindeck Quarter and lose almost every game from tempo disadvantage? (Hint, I lose either way).

Tapping the land during their upkeep, say with Icy Manipulator also gets around it.

I know! Run Maze of Ith to keep the uncounterable creature from swinging?

Cheers!

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I know that i could add black or white into my deck. The point is the effect this land has on the color blue and that you can no longer play an all blue deck. I think land cards should never have a huge game changing effect.

Also counters are important because they are one of the only ways to stop amazing ETB effects and creatures with protection other than killing your opponent before they can use them, and if such things didn't exist then removal would be overpowered. This is why there should be usable creature counters.

I know that i could add black or white into my deck. The point is the effect this land has on the color blue and that you can no longer play an all blue deck. I think land cards should never have a huge game changing effect.

If creature decks had no protections from counterspell they'd get wasted by mono blue decks, what about that?

Zoidberg, that's not true. Without Cavern aggro still gives control a hard time. Mono blue control is actually already disadvantaged to aggro by the fact that it has trouble dealing with onboard threats, might not have enough answers for aggro's threats (no mass removal), and probably can't counter its first one or two plays. Mono green aggro is one of the harder matchups for my mono blue deck in Pauper. Decks that are geared towards removal, like certain mono black control decks, those are the ones that stomp on aggro decks.

Cavern of Souls takes your already sweet cards, makes them easier to cast, and then makes counterspells completely dead to them. Uncounterable creatures are fair because you have to choose a specific creature to put into your deck, free uncounterable for every creature in a tribal deck is a bit much.

Tapping the land during their upkeep, say with Icy Manipulator also gets around it.

I know! Run Maze of Ith to keep the uncounterable creature from swinging?

Cheers!

It's not that expensive really, and hell by the time a new player sinks the money into buying fatpacks, boosters, game supplies, etc... they could have a set of COS on top of a deck to run it in. This card has Legacy/modern written all over it though since standard hasn't been good on a variety of tribal in a long time, and if you think elves/goblins/slivers/etc... actually became good (minus gemhide sliver and a few others) since timeshift you're sadly mistaken. Also the price for COS isn't really that bad when you compare it to onslaught fetch, original duals, tarm, bob, FoW, etc... $25 is subpar and ebay prices i'm sure they're around $60 a set. Magic is all about sinking money, granted yeah I never thought my revised duals, onslaught fetch, and my other legacy staples would jump as high as they have I would not doubt someone would spend $200+ on a set of cards that were worth $60 at most back 6 - 7 years ago that was my mistake though and I got back what I paid for those cards.

Also counters are important because they are one of the only ways to stop amazing ETB effects and creatures with protection other than killing your opponent before they can use them, and if such things didn't exist then removal would be overpowered. This is why there should be usable creature counters.

Have you ever worked with the public? I've seen people that make this guy look like a genius.

When I read this I laughed out loud, I work with tourists and oh my god! I'm suprised some people made it to adulthood.

You guys should try working in a hospital at night when all the freaks come out to play.

Honestly - Cavern isn't such a big deal. It's only good for tribal, and there's not that many tribal decks we should really fear outside Merfolk and Goblins. Merfolk are blue aren't they?We've had Aether Vial for quite a while, that normal counter can't do anything about that either. So what?Chances are mono-blue has already hit some stupid combo by turn 4 and won anyways.

I don't see why you're complaining about blue getting hosed, blue has ways to remove any permanent from the board, and any blue deck can just use Stripmine, Ghost Quarter or Wasteland. Considering Black and Red can't touch enchantments, and green gets no creature removal, how are you even complaining about the strongest colour in Magic?

is the strongest color in "Magic" because it has the most broken cards. But people don't play "Magic", they play formats. I think it is mainly Standard players who complain about blue getting nerfed. I don't know the state of Standard though because I don't play it anymore.

yes Cavern of Souls is epic in a tribal deck no doubt but if your trying to run mono-blue against a tribal deck and dont expect challenges like this well your an idiot tribal works well together because everything works together with each other this is just another variant of that i.e. Root Sliver same thing o but it's a land so what if u have been paying attention lands are getting to become monster cards be a big kid and rebuild and rethink your tactics thats what blue is all about move on thank you :D

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yes Cavern of Souls is epic in a tribal deck no doubt but if your trying to run mono-blue against a tribal deck and dont expect challenges like this well your an idiot tribal works well together because everything works together with each other this is just another variant of that i.e. Root Sliver same thing o but it's a land so what if u have been paying attention lands are getting to become monster cards be a big kid and rebuild and rethink your tactics thats what blue is all about move on thank you :D

Lands have actually gotten weaker if cards like Tolarian Academy have anything to say about it. The big problem with cavern is that is fixes your mana in addition to the uncounterable clause. Compare it to something like Boseiju, Who Shelters All.

Lands have actually gotten weaker if cards like Tolarian Academy have anything to say about it. The big problem with cavern is that is fixes your mana in addition to the uncounterable clause. Compare it to something like Boseiju, Who Shelters All.

The funny thing is, I find it odd that they functionally reprinted Remove Soul with Cavern.

I also think it's weird because counters aren't as powerful as most new players think. (Compare the frequency of Vindicate in top Legacy decks to the frequency of Cancel in top decks in any format.) They're just really griefy.

The funny thing is, I find it odd that they functionally reprinted Remove Soul with Cavern.

I also think it's weird because counters aren't as powerful as most new players think. (Compare the frequency of Vindicate in top Legacy decks to the frequency of Cancel in top decks in any format.) They're just really griefy.

Cavern of Souls isn't bad for the game of Magic. It DOES seem to be bad for people with narrowly built decks who can't figure out a way to use blue in any other way than just countering spells all day. Thing is...Cavern of Souls has many answers to it (esp. in blue). I'm sure if blue players put a little EFFORT into building a deck (or re-tuning the decks they have), they could imagine a way to get around one land card.

Cavern of Souls isn't bad for the game of Magic. It DOES seem to be bad for people with narrowly built decks who can't figure out a way to use blue in any other way than just countering spells all day. Thing is...Cavern of Souls has many answers to it (esp. in blue). I'm sure if blue players put a little EFFORT into building a deck (or re-tuning the decks they have), they could imagine a way to get around one land card.

Just so it's known, I HATE counterspells.

Love or hate counterspells, they are blue's way of "removal". Without counters, blue either has to splash or just live with whatever is played. To axe all relevant counters hard is not fair. To add onto that, spot removal in general with the current Standard is severely lacking. So, even if blue does splash, they're still not in the clear. Not only does a lack of counters affect blue, it affects every deck that is having trouble with the lack of removal.

The funny thing is, I find it odd that they functionally reprinted Remove Soul with Cavern.

I also think it's weird because counters aren't as powerful as most new players think. (Compare the frequency of Vindicate in top Legacy decks to the frequency of Cancel in top decks in any format.) They're just really griefy.

I don't think it's fair to compare one of the best removals in the game with one of the most mediocre counterspells and draw the conclusion that counterspells are worse than removal.

You're in Legacy for Vindicate, so let's stay Legacy for counterspells.

Compare the total number of Vindicates PLUS Swords to Plowshares in all Top 8 Legacy decks in the past 6 months, with the total number of Force of Wills in those decks. (Hint: Force of Will wins. Many, many more decks Top 8'd with Force of Will, most of the decks running StP also have Force, and not every deck running StP or Vindicate run 4 of either, while decks that run Force, run 4 of it).