What A Way To Go: Life at the end of Empire

Tim Bennett, middle-class white guy, started waking up to the global environmental nightmare in the mid-1980s. But life was so busy with raising kids and pursuing the American dream that he never got around to acting on his concerns. Until now…

Bennett journeys from complacency to consciousness in his feature-length documentary, What a Way To Go: Life at the End of Empire. He reviews his Midwestern roots, ruthlessly examines the stories he was raised with, and then details the grim realities humans now face: escalating climate change, resource shortages, degraded ecosystems, an exploding global population and teetering global economies.

Bennett identifies and calls into question the fundamental assumption that has led to this unprecedented crisis in human history: that humans were destined to dominate the rest of the community of life with the Culture of Empire. He pushes the dialogue where Al Gore did not go.

Powerful interviews with well-known authors including Daniel Quinn, Derrick Jensen and Richard Heinberg, and noted scientists William Schlesinger and Stuart Pimm, fill in some important pieces. Scathing and humorous use of archival footage is balanced with very human snapshot comments from family and friends.

On Walkabout, Bennett ends with an invitation to join him with courage and consciousness on the unexplored shores of a future not yet written. Find out more at the Homepage of this documentary.

317 Comments / User Reviews

For Me I thinK The Solution Is Islam Not your Islam But The Real Islam

Jack_Burton

Religions in one of the main reasons this planet is so screwed up. Islam is the worst one of the bunch.

But who cares... Bring it all down. Lets have a world reset. Mad Max days, here we come.

I prob will be dead by the time the $hit really hits the fan. Party hard before then. Use up everything you can. Have fun.

Matt Kukowski

I sense absolute FEAR in this doc. What the author/creator has to realize is that why fear death? He goes on and on trying to be poetic and cheesy to some how inspire us.

Truth is ... nothing is absolute, everything comes to an end, including this Galaxy, not to mention the Sun.

So, is science the answer? Or is it wacko, I would say it all depends. Maybe we can reduce population, live in balance in nature...

But, on the sly side have a space program and develop a boat to space. No guarantee is the only guarantee.

His Forever

Well, the Bible does say that in the last Days, men's hearts would fail them for FEAR . . . I can sense the deep fear also in this documentary, and I'd most certainly join them in the dispair if I didn't have Jesus in my heart----abundant life now, and eternal life (and peace of mind) to come no matter what your "end" is here on this earth.

Guest

Are you ready to walk instead of driving when you can?
Are you willing to quit buying the latest toy for your entertainment?
Have you seen all the THINGS you own in your house, in your drive way, at the cottage?
The change will NOT COME from the top. Plain and Simple.
The change will grow from the bottom up, which is MOST OF US ALL.
IT COULD grow OVERNIGHT like a mushroom if we all say "enough is enough". Try to notice how many times a day "you want something".
1000 people making a change does not make much of a difference.
1000000 people making a change does not make much of a difference.
10000000 people making a change starts making a bit of a difference.
And the difference is that when a lot of people do something good, a lot more people follow in.

Turn away from wars, no president, lawyers, bankers will go for you.
Turn away from spending spending spending. Everything you want cost an equal amount of money. Money is time. To make money you have to give time. Look at everything as "how much time do i have to work to own this?" Want Less and have more time to grow carrots, flowers and love.
I tend to think that the best place to live will be with a tribe in Africa if we don't stop this, because when the world goes to shite, the rich will be lost, the peasant (not the poor) will find their way as they have been for eons.

at the beginning it says: "People of Empire devouring the world"
az

kylemcguffin

STOP AND THINK PEOPLE! Take a moment out of your busy life to look in the mirror and ask yourself who we are and our purpose? One of the most important video to our civilization you will ever watch on our meaning and purpose in life. Thank you Tim Bennet to have the courage to share and for creating such a powerful video.

Did we "use the earth"?

Now our duty as a member of civilization and for the future of our children share this with everyone you know and ask them, "how did we get here?" What can we do to stop the destruction of our existence?

Ask the politicians, oil companies, If our banks accounts are full of money and our cars full of gas does it matter we have reached the end of our species?

How long do we keep our eyes closed and believe this is a bad nightmare and not reality? Folks it is too late already. This goes back to our purpose on this planet.....

How did we get here?

Is there a way to get from here to there? Can we buy ourselves out of this? That's what we are taught!

As TIm says this current state is not going to end happily ever after as were taught...

Kyle McGuffin

Carol Christofferson

oil, oil, oil, oil,wait a minute. What about the google tons of coal, what about the google cubic foot of natural gas. if you want of telling the truth say it. if you wrong on fuel what's telling me you are right on the rest?
I have more hope from the human future.

panthera f

The greatest story is Religion.
If you had not been told that, you would have done more to live better on earth and preserve nature more.
But as you believe you do better in the so called "the next life", you dont give a f*** about life NOW.
Thats why the earth is going to hell. :-(

Guest

Little things i do:
I caretake houses, no rent to pay.
I walk when i can and i drive a 1997 Ford.
I write this comment on a 2004 computer.
I own very few clothes, always happy to get second handown.
I work until i have enough money to get by, i play until i have to work.
I garden and grow what i can with the lot i have.
Why have a grass lawn when you can grow every inch with food?
I share my extra or i trade.
Actually i always trade when i can. Time, things, work, love.
Be Have Do Give Love
Doing magic with simple verbs
Behave and do give love.

Tell us what you do to make a difference, ideas are always good.
az

Guest

Your post is a good exemple of what's wrong with religion.
Don't worry, don't be in despair you have eternal life. A view shared by the gov. of America and most other gov.
I have felt your deep fear since i met you on TDF.
The fear of God.
Your only solution to everything is God. God will make it all good in the end.
A God outside of you. A God too good to be you or i or any 1.
A God you would never recognize if he was to show himself to you, because your God is already Decided, Formed and Accepted as being the God of christianity.
A God who lives in your imagination, a God who is too good to live in your bones.
az

Sertsis

A very interesting doc., but don't watch it on an upset tummy. What a bleak outlook on our human 'empire'. To think that we were at risk of destroying our selves by means of war, gave a glimmer of hope that we might not actually do it, but here they say that we are actively doing so by peaceful means that are built in to our natural coarse of daily activity, and there's no stopping it, is just depressing.
I have a terrible solution! This doc suggests that we are crowding out the rest of our biosphere by our numbers, and our activities. Why don't we limit our offspring to one per couple, just like the Chinese did. If every child born today were to be 'fixed' after their first born, the de-population of humans would start this generation. It would have to be a mandate shared by all people , nations, religions, etc. It would have to be a universal belief that broke through all cultural barriers, that this is the only way to retreat from our decimated earth, and deprived billions of the future.
I can think of a dozen reasons why this won't work, and I'm sure I'll read more here later(like how to explain it to your wife), but if our population is the one underlying denominator to such numerators as were described here, then it is the only way for us to live within our means.

CapnCanard

Excellent doc... The major problem is one of simple math. The simple exponential growth and dire consequences of oil, coal, war, money, terrorism, population, disease, depletion of resources, pollution, etc etc. There are answers but our monetary system will do nothing to stop any transition from this failed monetary system of wealth accumulation. Look at the way that the Teabagging Congress are behaving at this very moment! We are on the way down and we aren't gonna come back up. There are ways to mitigate the results but I sincerely doubt that industry will do anything to help and they will resist it at every step along the way. People can change but corporations will only demand more profit.

Earthwinger

For quite a long while now, there have been major doubts expressed about the stated reserves of coal, and recent research suggests that in reality, there's actually less than half of what the current stated reserves are.

As for gas, we're now starting to see the damage that fracking for shale gas is causing. To expand fracking and rely on it for future gas supplies would be insanity. If you're not aware of the issues surrounding fracking, then I'd suggest a very good short documentary called Gasland, which you'll find on Google videos.

Another thing that's worth bearing in mind is that whatever the stated reserves are for both coal and gas, those figures are based on the current world population. Obviously, as the population increases, then those reserves have to be shared out between more and more people. One only has to look at the astronomical growth of China's energy demands to see that this would pose a significant problem, even if the stated reserves were accurate. If the revised estimates for coal reserves are accurate, then the problem is even worse.

CapnCanard

all religion is a crutch. There is no god but you and the fact that you have being. God is nameless, though it is best described as the act of your conscious awareness, and nothing but. Do yourself a favor and read some Rumi.

DeeJay Pickles

you obviously don't have children, number one problem with your species you don't care about unless it makes you happy.

CapnCanard

I believe the film did mention Permaculture and perhaps other non invasive methodolgies. Coal? NO! Don't go down that road that is just more of the same based on the failed Free Market Economic Model... very bad idea. The alternatives already exist but the status quo will resist them, complaining endlessly. It is not unlike the war on drugs. There is an answer in making drugs legal: then the violence to protect the profit evaporates. Just as if Hydrogen were available then the oil based economy would disappear simply because Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe. Hence energy would become cheaper than food. So why do you think we don't use Hydrogen now? is it because they tell you it is too difficult? or it is because they tell you it is too expensive? or it is that they tell you it is too dangerous? Answer:I believe it is because it threatens profits and these freaks in chief LIVE, DIE and WORSHIP the BOTTOM LINE. For them there is nothing but MONEY. Our whole system is held in slavery to the concept of wealth accumulation.

Earthwinger

Much like yourself, I live within my means, and only buy what I can afford. I don't use banks, or any form of credit whatsover. Fortunately, everything I need is either within cycling, walking or skating distance, so I have no need of a car, and I've never owned one. Almost everything in my house is a hand-me-down of some sort or another. My computers are all second hand, and very old machines are pressed into service, simply by installing a lightweight Linux operating system. Why give money to billionaires, for operating systems that are in effect malware, when you can get free OS's, that don't have all the associated security issues. I'm also perfectly happy shopping for clothes at charity shops. Not only does it support good causes, but personally, I see no point in spending lots of money on new clothes, when I'm quite likely to shred them if/when I fall off my longboard. :D

One of the things that I'm really keen on, and I'd recommend to everyone is shopping locally. We should all support food producers that are local to us as much as possible. Not only is this good for the environment, as less food miles are involved, but it also helps too fuel local economies, and freeze out the big corporations. And if/when things really start to fall apart, it is local food production that will be our salvation. So we should support and encourage this as much as possible.

leonardobdas

Translated as: spiritual scapegoating by means of vicarious redeption offered through the public torture of a bronze age carpenter that his ghost came back from life, witnessed by women which we know their words held no political importance. All of this at a time resurrection stories were common place in Jerusalem, with the gospels saying there were zombies walking all over the place visiting their families around the time of the resurrection story.

Also translated as: Instead of trying to be the change, just say 'fudge it' since it will all be good in the next life.

leonardobdas

What I consider the most 'naughty' that religious leaders do it to take away from families the possibility of learning how to take responsibility and care of their problems in a rational way. Instead of allowing people to practice how to use critical thinking and proper rethoric to take steps in their personal development, they lie to people and medicate them with NLP. These guys get paid to lie to people and should be thrown in jail for trying to perform medical and psyshological duties without training, or if trained, using false advertisement to get clients.

Guest

IF you don't have 2:03:43 seconds then watch the last 30:00, the end is always the most important. ...just like ours!
az

Nathan Daniel

Fear mongering, alarmist, bullshit. Things are bad, but not nearly as bad as this guy is asserting. Volcanos release MUCH more co2 into the atmosphere yearly than man. The Earth, and life on Earth, has been going on for hundreds of millions of years and will continue for millions more. This guy is the epitome of a fear-mongering hypocrite. I wonder how much money this guy has made from this documentary?

Guest

When in deep water become a diver.
az

Guest

One more kangaroo with it's head in the sand.
az

Heather Wade

Every human on Earth, even me, takes action only when it benefits us. When this is changed, societies will change. Until then, this will only get worse.

Nathan Daniel

Not at all. There is a difference between truth and fanaticism. This guy presents his alarmist opinions as fact as though he has the ability to predict the future. There is always someone claiming the end of the world is right around the corner, and the argument is always based on half-truths and assumption. Life goes on. I'm not a kangaroo with my head in the sand, not at all. Don't call me a kangaroo with my head in the sand, and I won't call you a gullible, naive moron.

Hans Zandvliet

Poor narrow minded climate denier. Remember the warning after ads from hedge funds and the likes: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results!"
We've seen what this means on Wall Street, and in the course of this century we're likely to see it as well with climate change, oil production and the very survival of humanity.

tom

Death cult propaganda.. We're gonna have to kill/sterilize all the people so they don't kill themselves. Riiiiiight.

Hans Zandvliet

Very true CapnCanard. That's why we have to find a way to get rid of this unholy capitalist system. Nationalize all the banks, abollish the free market and install a plan economy. Because coordinated planning is what we need to save our future.

Hans Zandvliet

Street shopping has become a hobby of mine. It's amazing how you can furnish your house with trown away stuff. I found a big Persian carpet (genuine label still attached on the back), great modern design like new office chair. I picked up an entire Enceclopedia Brittanica (30 volumes) for free. I collected wooden planks from the beach to make book shelves: it looks awesome! Meanwhile we're saving money to buy a plot of land to check out of this madness and start homesteading. I can't wait till we got it together.

Stephen W.

'Let it wash over you.'?
'let yourself feel it.'?

What a ridiculous disclaimer! Either it's right or wrong - either whatever this film is going to say is support by evidence or it's not. What you feel has nothing to do with the correctiveness of information. I haven't watched this yet, but what a pseudo-intellectual way to kick it off! Oh well, we'll see how the rest of it plays out.

Emily

Two things about climate change and co2. I do not argue that climate change could be due to a longer-scale change we are not shown. Geologically speaking, the trend could be perfectly natural. But acknowledgment that it is happening along with proper steps to lessen the impact on human lives, could be beneficial. As far as the co2 levels, the change seems to be too sudden to be a natural occurance. If it was natural, those same spikes would have been seen before.

tom

" the end is always the most important. ...just like ours! "

*cough* death cult *cough*

tom

No one denies that climate changes. Turn off the CNN talking points and learn to read... You are sooooo far behind.

tom

Hey there Stalin did they un box you already? I figured satan would have kept you a bit longer. I see though that you still haven't learned.

Global warming is a money making scam, a construct for the money boys who never seem to have enough, carbon tax a person to death! Reminds me of the "God" boys. Always need more money!

Achems_Razor

Forgot to mention that "methane gas" is 21 times more powerful as a greenhouse gas, and is significantly underestimated, now if we could just figure out how to stop all the cows farting and belching...Oh wait! shouldn't have said that, cow tax might be coming??

His Forever

Not exactly my take on the resurrection of Jesus Christ and other righteous people at that time as witnesses of God's completed work. I'm an environmental activist--God gave us dominion over our planet to protect and conserve it. But, I do take great comfort in knowing that there is something beyond this planet. Cheers!

His Forever

Thank you, Az. That touched my heart. Yes, I do fear God; greatly. But I also have great love for Him and a deep sense of gratitude. The Bible says that "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." At least I have my eternal priorities in order as peace of mind and soul and heart only truly comes when you do so.

Sadly, your reply is all that is wrong with Godlessness (the one true God that is) and replacing yourself with Him. Wasn't that the oldest sin in the Bible where Satan, via the serpent, said to Eve, " [If you disobey God and listen to me and eat this fruit] . . . then you shall be like God"? Something to think about.

His Forever

I clean up garbage in our neighborhood--litterally mounds and mounds of it. Repeatedly. I've dug it out of the illeagal landfill next to our house where I planted a garden of papayas instead. Tree seeds for weeds; I let bugs out of the house rather than killing them (except roaches and mosquitos). I don't let my kids kill caterpillars in the garden even though everyone else I know does just because they are hairy and cause a reaction if you touch them--baby butterflies. And I encourage people to love and serve God wholeheartedly so they do not dispair of in life.

Daniel Chapman

The time of the lone wolf is over , gather as one return to life from the land.

His Forever

That was actually pretty well said, Az. I'm one of the few people I knew that actually risked my life (truly) to recue box turtles in Arkansas when I saw them in the middle of the road "boxed" up--the ones still living. I must have saved dozens as everone one counts in saving the dwindling population numbers.

misterwong

I don't think it's water we are deep in..Kno what I mean?

PamelaG

Our numbers of offspring are being limited for us by the spermicides now formulated into all vaccines, the GMO soy in all processed foods, and the poly-chem interactions of the pharmaceuticals most take.

Peter Howard

The poetry is amazing1

0zyxcba1

@ DeeJay Pickles"you obviously don't have children, number one problem with your species you don't care about unless it makes you happy."

a) "...obviously no children,..."Why "obviously"?

b) "...number one problem..."
...and problem 'number two'?

c) ...your species... ???!!!With which "species" do you identify?

d) "you don't care about [anything] unless it makes you happy."It is virtuous to care about the happiness of others and about one's own happiness. The contention that humans care about nothing else, is demonstrably false, and betrays willful ignorance on the part of at least one member of your species, namely: you!

0z

Guest

i agree, it sounds like a book he would have written first
az

AlfBeta

Speaking of volcanoes, volcanoes and Man may not be separate causes. Like this: if Earth is a long-surviving life-system with everything interacting over long periods in feedback response, which is not crazy, and that a major function of volcanoes is to pour highgrade fertiliser around it, as is wellknown to ancient and modern observers, then I would expect that a huge depletion of topsoil fertility as man has done, could cause a response of increased volcanic activity - this would make sense to scientifically inclined people I think.

Guest

CnN
I don't know what it says in the bible, as i have said before, i never read it.
You say: "Wasn't that the oldest sin in the Bible where Satan, via the serpent, said to Eve, " [If you disobey God and listen to me and eat this fruit] . . . then you shall be like God"? Something to think about."

Ya i thought about it and can't figure out what it means. It seems to me that if someone offered you a fruit that could turn you into God itself, you would probably say yes and ask for a few extras for your family.
So i don't see why Eve would have refused.

You see, i have heard the story of Adam and Eve, i could give you my version but you wouldn't recognize it.

Adam was an extraterrestrial, a serrogate ape mother was chosen, Eve was the first human conceived. Evolution is right but has never involved humans. VOila! Now my story does not sound much more real than yours but a story is just a story!
az

AlfBeta

Last I heard, the number of people who could permanently occupy this planet at present American middle-class rates of consumption, is about one quarter of present Americans!
At the same time there is enough energy food shelter available right now to stop the howls of agony, hunger and fear radiating into space 24/7 from the innocent victims of their own species, and allow us to meet in peace and honesty to deal with secondary important things like population.
It's a million bucks a bomb out there! Etc.

Guest

it does sound better to use water!
az

AlfBeta

Thank you az, bringing it back to essence of situation. Someone said freedom is not a long road, it's a single step. That truly is a power people have, back off with the money-storm.
hey, and btw, I had also thought about africa, or more exactly, the same on my continent.

Guest

You have the right to your opinion.
I shouldn't have called you a kangooroo, an ostrich would have made more sense, because at least ostriches are supposed to have their head in the sand, which is what most people do.
We hear the earth is suffering, we read results, we talk about what can be done, and we just go on shopping.
May be if you spent years researching the stuff he researched, met the people he had the opportunity to meet along the way...you would possibly pull your head out to a new perception.
Go ahead, live your life, don't worry be happy!
Follow the Machine. Klink Klang Klong
az

AlfBeta

[quote]Every human on Earth, even me, takes action only when it benefits us[/quote]
And still it depends on knowledge of what benefits me.
An action might benefit my body -not share my sandwich with you, and my hunger will be gone. Share my sandwich, and my hunger won't be quite gone, but my spirit will be singing. I know which is more benefit to me, oh yes I do, and I will share.
This is not religious - it's just - from one sandwich, can come:
one unhungry person and one suffering from too much hunger, and I am stuck in it, even if I walked away, or
two happinesses and a bit of hunger each.
And a whole lot of words here for one sandwich LOL

wald0

Wait a minute, are you saying that the purpose of a volcano is to produce fertilizer to replenish the soil- and that because man has depleted the soil the volcanoes have to erupt more to do their job? That's absolutely absurd and no, scientifically inclined people would not think it made sense. First of all, volcanoes do not have a "purpose" in the way you are using the word. They are simply the result of heat and pressure building up under the ground, this is cause and effect not design and purpose. Secondly, the process of decay is what enriches ninety percent of the soil in the world not volcanoes. Third, how would a volcano know that the soil around it needed replenishing and that erupting could fix that? They do not have a brain in which to store or process that knowledge, nor sensory organs to detect the situation.Scientist do not look for purpose in the natural world, they look for cause and effect. Nature does what it does, we find ways to exploit that when we can and at other times all we can do is hide from it and hope we live.

Now, as far as volcanoes producing more co2 than humans, so what. We are not concerned with what volcanoes or cow flatulence adds to the problem, we cant do anything about that.. We can however do something about the increased output of the industrial world. Global warming is a fact, the polar ice caps melting proves that. There have also been other more subtle indicators, but I wont go into that. So, people say that the question now is did man cause it. I say no, the question is can man stop it. If we can of course we must. Science says we can. Now you may or may not believe all that science has to say but the scientific method is by far the best tool mankind has at his disposal when it comes to distinguishing truth. If we can' trust it to rule our lives the way it does every single minute of the day through technology then why not trust it when it tells us something we don't want to hear?

Those that don't want to believe in global warming will say that there are scientist that deny it exists or that it will have significant impact on human civilization. Well, there were scientist that told us that tobacco was fine as well, scientist that said that man could never go to the moon, scientist that believe Elvis is alive and well and living in the white house. My point is that science is a broad field full of a very diverse group of people. The opinion of one or three or even ten scientists means absolutely nothing. It is the scientific consensus of the overall scientific community that carries weight, and in this case it is overwhelmingly in the favor of global warming being real, caused by man, and able to be somewhat reversed. We ignore that at our own peril.

Guest

Did you just get out of the shower singing?
az

Tony Louderbough

I do not own a TV and haven’t for two years, I do not own a smart phone and have only owned two cell phones in my life- I try not buy "things", I drive a 1994 Honda Civic that I have owned sense 2000-It needs a little work. I am grateful for everything I have and have ever had. I try to love everyone no matter who they are or what they do, not always successful - I use meditation to help recognize how we are all connected, we are the same thing just operating a different levels in life and society. I try to teach people about meditation and share love with all. I smile at everyone. Every moment is sacred.

Achems_Razor

Azilda,
Close, the powers that be, not one god, but gods,as in plural did not want humankind to have any smarts, wanted to keep them dumbed down, so could control them, same thing basically as they are doing today for the religee's.

So the opposite of the moral majority at that time, the few gods was the one big bad dude man, the king of porn and vice, the one and only , the devil himself.

So the devil dude got this prop, a talking snake to instill some power over the gal, which would be Eve. Since most women are inherently scared of snakes to begin with, was a no brainer.

So Eve could easily coerce Adam to go along and eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge which represented humans with the gift of knowledge and reasoning and freedom to think for themselves that the devil man offered, instead of the stagnant restrictive dumbing down control, and no upwards mobility that the gods of religion offer and still offer today, Easy choice, what?

Beside Eve'e said to Adam, you do as I say and eat the fruit, or you will not get any sex ever! as women are wont to do. Which has not really changed that much.
So there you have it.

Guest

Every human who want to change society take action in the field of their interest and leave other fights for others. The best is to join a group, many people, many interests, many things done!

Though i can see your point, the mountain to climb looks daunting!
az

AlfBeta

@Achems. Global warming can be a money-making opportunity (what isn't!) without being false. The Moneyheads would even try to bring it on if they had enough bets on it!

Guest

That's providing the earth is of a "certain" sensory awareness.
Hard to tell what the earth could "think".
But you know what i like crazy ideas....and i sometimes like to be able to write them here.
Crazy ideas have often been fertile in the past.
az

Guest

@Achems
Imagine if you were the "next person" to interpret and translate the bible, would sure be an interesting update!
az

wald0

Already saw this one. It is pretty good. My rule is though that when you find you are spending just as much time watching documentaries and talking about a problem as you are doing something about it- something has to change. That's where I am with this whole change the way we live and think thing- hours of time watching docs, debating, and thinking about it but many less hours doing something. That's one reason I got involved with cob building techniques. I am learning by building small structures how to build my home. Then I plan on starting both contracting cob structures and teaching the technique locally. At the least I will have gained a useful skill and a practical yet artistically pleasing home to live in. Anyone can learn the technique on you tube or many other web sites. You would be surprised how beautiful, modern, and practical you can make a structure with this technique mixed with a small amount of traditional carpentry.

AlfBeta

It doesn't need purpose or design or sensory awareness to react. Has no scientist observed an intricate integration of function? And 'simply the result of heat and pressure''?, No, absolutely not, except as an abstract for limiting the variables in studying any aspect of a 20 billion year interacting result.
If you would look again at what I said Waldo without the imagined layer of "intelligent design", or whatever it is, and therefore without the need for the "science is the One True Path" sermon( with which I assure you I'm very familiar) I would feel better about discussing it..
I understand, since az and you both read something like purpose into my post I must have accidentally used a trigger-phrase of this popular binary debate. Maybe it was 'feedback'. I wouldn't have thoughT that was an unknown component of natural systems

AlfBeta

As for CO2 and volc.s, I don't know anything about that.

AlfBeta

@ az
no, this climate, this month, one gets out of the shower running for cover

0zyxcba1

@ Sertsis

Humankind during great conflict and even the during the Cold War unified to eradicate smallpox from the face of the earth. The first eradication, ever.

Total!

If we can do that, we can carry out your "terrible solution," successfully.

You're right. Life is likely to continue here for a very long time. But the catch is...WE are not necessarily going to be a part of that life. You can call it alarmist bullshit if you like -with a capitalist ulterior motive- and I'd agree that in some respects that's true: There's all kinds of bread to be made scaring the hell out of people! But there's also some simple math... For instance, decades ago Isaac Asimov wrote an essay about population-growth, wherein he demonstrated mathematically that if the birth rates to death rates as they then were continued unchanged, then in a mere 300 years there would be approximately one square yard to live per person for every individual on earth. And that was with all of the flora and fauna wiped out to provide additional space... And have we really progressed much in this department since then? We're the only species on the planet with the ability to foresee the future, and yet will normally only employ that ability to satisfy relatively short-term needs or wants. Families may strategize for 20 or 30 years, while nations in some respects -infrastructure, for example- for 50 or 100, or even longer. But no entity, in my opinion, seems concerned ENOUGH yet with those issues that are turning out to be paramount. My personal dream is that we begin to SERIOUSLY plan for the day when we can start moving off of this planet. And in the meantime, let's at least attempt to revamp the economy worldwide, as much as possible, to make better use of resources, limited and renewable, without everyone freaking out about it. And to reduce the negative impact we've been making, not least of all. It's a job that must get done, so let's just GET it done, summoning up whatever talent, capital, and courage we can. And finally, an even bigger dream: Any ideology or religion that would hinder such long-term objectives in any way should have no political power anywhere with which to do so. If a person's beliefs teach him that he should be unconcerned with the future of the world, he should have little or no means of forcing others to accept the consequences of that... Which plays a bigger part in this than some might realize.

Jason Nevins

Discover the Zeitgeist Movement.

Penny Royal

I don't know where to start at describing how pathetic this doc is. It exceeds stupidity in so many ways.

NAND Gate

you first

NAND Gate

bahaha whatever climate denier

NAND Gate

lol I suppose climate scientists are part of your "death cult" also?

Guest

A world reset may blow a few million pawns off the board. I suppose if you are drunk and stone enough when it happens, it may even make you laugh!
"Use up everything you can?" Aren't we doing that already?
az

Fred Wilder

Unfortunately socialism works even worse than unregulated capitalism. Basic human avarice has yet to be controlled in any significant way that I'm aware of, other than placing limits on what is or isn't acceptable economic behavior. As far as I can see most of recorded human history seems to be a struggle for control of what at that moment in time is the source of wealth. The only progress that I see is that there does appear to be some agreement on the part of humanity that using violence to accumulate wealth, (unless done by the government of course) is unacceptable. Considering the slow progress of humanity from barbarism to a semblance of civilization, accomplishing that in about 150 years, is pretty rapid progress for humanity, considering it took thousands of years for there to be a general agreement among humans that slavery was unacceptable. Now this doesn't mean the violent accumulation of wealth or slavery has been eradicated, but at least now when you do those things, you get a tsk, tsk from the ruling elite.

Fred Wilder

I hope that is snarky sarcasm because if you can prove that, you are going to start a revolution.

Fred Wilder

Gotta love a film like this if for no other reason than the fact that it gets people thinking seriously, debating seriously and provides incredible insight into the most mysterious thing on the planet, the workings of the human mind. No judgement here about right or wrong in the comments, just incredible admiration for the vast majority of those commenting.

Guest

A heap of poetic assertions. No "Cause to effect" datas. Else, sunk into a non planed scenario that leaves the viewer wondering : -What's the point"?
In many instances, that doc looks as if it date back to 20-30 years ago.
But what's worst if the total absence of the main cause of all this: Empire's politics. Just as if it wouldn’t exist!

Just think of this, in at least one so-called democratic country on planet earth, any financial or commercial business can provide subsides to any amount of money to a political party within that country.
The financial or commercial entity does not need to be recognized as carrying its main business activities within that country.
There is no limit in the size of the subside.
And that cannot be changed, never ever.
Else, they have the necessary guns and prisons to rescue the corporate's democracy.

Beside, it ain't the object planet earth who'd be destroyed as George Carlin figure out, it's been there for ever. Changed it's polar revolutions a few times, went through a few ice ages, all these past few 100's billions years while human kind 'been here since only a few 100's thousand years.

A hopeless situation where a few international corporates can provide to politicians more money then all the citizens have at hand.
Have borrowed to the corporate league, that is...

Then, these corporates will simply design a space shuttle to run away from the mess and find another mother earth anywhere else.
Have you got your ticket? One ticket ride that ought to be.

Bon voyage!

Guest

Well no! That is one of the most important of my points. Grow your food where ever you can. Here in my town people even grow food in the piece of dirt between the sidewalk and the street (where normally cities grow trees). There is also an association that will grow food in your backyard providing that you let them do it for at least three years(a lot of work to prepare the soil). You sign up with them, they garden the part of the yard offered and then they bring you a box of mixed veg and fruits every week (from all the different backyards signed up) for a minimal cost. A lot of people like this system specially people who do not want to mow their lawn once a week all summer. It is all done organically.
Hey if you got nothing to do...start it in your town! az

Nick Furka

Great doc! Thanks V!!!!

Achems_Razor

I think it best if we rely on our local GOD, at least we know where the h@ll it is, the one and only great mother Earth God, "GAIA" all hail!!

Takes precedent over your in-vitro gods, at least the Earth is real.

And am sorry to say Charles, probably the reason you are relying on your Jesus so much, is because you are scared sh%tless of dying. And scared of all your devils and demons that are the product of your mind. Do you check the closet and under your bed, Hmmm?

Nathan Daniel

Azilda, do you automatically assume that everyone with a differing opinion to your own is a close-minded, materialistic sheep? Your arrogance is stunning. You know nothing about me, except one simple opinion, and you go so far as to first call me a kangaroo with my head in the sand, and then call me an ostrich with my head in the sand, and go on to say "Follow the Machine" as though I go about life in a mindless, unquestioning way. I in NO way support the use of petroleum for our energy needs when there are so many other options, even free energy, which have been suppressed by Big Oil. I HATE things as they are now. The pollution, the killing off of species, the fact that corporate welfare is given priority over the welfare of individuals and the world as a whole.

Get off your pedestal. You know nothing about me or my beliefs. You have inferred that I am a mindless materialistic sheep-person by my opinion that this is an alarmist documentary based on half truths. Really, your rhetoric is arrogant and offensive. You attacked me personally for stating an opinion. I could infer an awful lot about you by your overly defensive, reactionary behavior... but I digress.

Main point: get off your pedestal. Just because I disagree with you on something doesn't mean I'm a close-minded sheep. Did someone make you the authority on truth?

Joseph Carl Ruger

Exceeds stupidity? I'd say that it strives to evoke attributes in social behavior that are out of reach, inconceivable, and impossible for the average american. Very admirable and well thought out. Penny Royal is too concerned worshiping his Royal pennies to care about the train crashing.

Nathan Daniel

I agree with you totally. There needs to be a paradigm change, a revolution, and end to this madness. Technology exists that could totally do away with the need for fossil fuels. It makes me sick that humanity can not progress into a new age because of the interest of a few money-addicted oil barons. Obviously, the welfare of humanity, and it's continuing technological progression, is greatly jeapordized by Big Oil and other industries which lay waste to the earth (deforestation especially). But also overpopulation, the depletion of fresh water, overfishing on top of ocean oil spills... I think what we should be worried about the most is what we will do after there is not enough raw oil to meet the demand of western civilizations, and the wars and anarchy which will inevitably follow. The Earth, and human life, will continue on whether the climate changes or not. If we are hurled into an ice age, humanity will largely be forced to live as it did during the last Ice age. All of our technological and cultural achievements will be nullified and mean nothing. But life will go on... That said, things can change. The future is uncertain. My opinion on this documentary still hasn't changed.

Guest

Sure. I am off it.
I see we agree more than we disagree on the subject but i also see you disagree with the words i used when i first responded to your comment.
I now agree with you on that too, it was rude of me to do name calling. You see, i am very rarely rude, it is a new strategy i am learning from @Achems and @Oz and a few others. I don't blame them for anything, other than showing me a different approach at times. You are one of the first to get a bite of my very unpracticed arrow.
So here i am going to re-read everything you wrote with this lesson in mind. And will come back with a more respect Full, still honest response.
az

Achems_Razor

That's it! no more Mr. good guy. You say I am rude, when was I ever rude?

Showing you a different approach, what different approach?

There is only one approach, be kind, gentle, treat people with respect, and listen, as I'm sure you know that is what I do. And am sure that Oz has a few things to say to you also.

Guest

I will reply by steps as i am renovating and painting the front patio at the same time.
I thought i'd start with the end.

You wonder how much money this guy made from this doc.
What would be a right amount for putting together a movie that has the benefit of creating a new needed awareness for the mass?
Do you think the world around knows about the problems with the environment?
In what situation do you think this guy exagerate to the extremes you see?
People will agree with some parts while some will disagree with some parts but the goal of telling one's perception of reality with that much passion, is to open the mind to the problem in a wider way. I wouldn't be surprised if this doc was first and formost a personal quest, it didn't start written in ciment. It appears to me that he started it as a long poem of longing for the health of Gaia.

What someone is paid to DO anything, is based on inequalities.
How much do you make?
az

Guest

@Achems
I was saying that as a compliment. I see it as an improvement on my part. Sorry that you take it this way.
I guess i am not too good at it yet!
Showing a more direct approach.
You want me to search for exemples?
Ho ya! your past files are erased! Just like Castaneda would have done....lololol!
az

rtiom

There must be some kind of way to slowly just block out ignorant people from making contributions to debates and discussions.
What I really wanted to say was that capitalism is a breeding ground for socialism and nationalism. I hope that while everyone becomes more aware of the problems we face , they don't overlook the historical lessons that should have been learned. As for the narrow minded least intellectual, yet educated folks that make ignorant ranty comments bashing this doc, I have one thing to say. Your comments make me feel the same way as when I look at a face of a car sales man who has white stuff built up in the corners of his mouth. This is an old doc and the same message exists today with plenty of hard facts to back it up. I really don't know where all of you people come from, but as far as I'm concerned you are at the bottom of the food chain.

Guest

@Achems
I hope neither one of you change "style", i finally got used to it! Oz makes me laugh quite a bit, i bet i'd like the guy if he was a neighbour. Your "handling" of CnN is quite hillarious at times too.
az
Peace to all ...as he would say!

reservoir

you need to make another documentary not with 50 - 60 years of your experience but 450-500 years since the Renaissance in Venice and how (banking ) research that from the beginning ! financed commerce and how we got stuck with that economic model now go 4000- 8000 years to the beginning of agriculture and do your best to research that ! get your history organized in your brain use the old noddle FYI did you know that man has made the sun there on earth? what we don't still have is the box to put it in ???? and we don't have the box right because we need more Galileo, newton , Faraday, ohm , Volta,Fermi,Einstein, Bohr ,Feynman , Sagan ,Tesla and hundreds of others oops more history to catch up with .... so i think if you want you should get a PH.D in physics another in chemistry another in QED !!! you find out what that is .... and with luck and a heavy dose of (insight ) key word ...you can help make the box or whatever so we can make the energy that produces the work so we can eat,drink ,dress, keep cool , keep warm, clean the mess of 200 years ETC. THE GLASS IN NOT HALVE EMPTY IT IS HALVE FULL . good luck to you kory

wald0

You basically restated my own post back to me.

misterwong

There is a moderation feature on this site to omit obscene or incendiary posts.I don't know what its guidelines are,but they appear to be arbitrary,as some of my more brilliant insights have been immoderately moderated into oblivion.Since I don't post obscene content,I concluded that I was delusional to believe that my ideas were relevant(to the moderator).Let's see if this post makes it past that sly censor with his big red pen! HA!

HA! You had me at the first few sentences!It's what Dr.King described as the "paralysis of Analysis"..You always have something worthwhile to add!What I find fascinating (not this Doc)is the comment diversity.Intellectuals,pseudo-intellectuals.blowhards,old tyme hippies,God Squad and Uber-Athiests all creeping out from under our respective rocks to bitch about the past and cast our lots into the future...Good Luck,Future Wald0!

damdename

All your inputs point toward you're being a good student.

I found this little "cuff" in my notes--
"the greatest barrier to learning is one's own opinion"
It seems as though a large number of people commenting
on what I consider an art form, are communicating
directly from the source, as pictured in this creation, which
is, denial -- if one would simply allow another's point of view
to be ---- that alone could be a valuable learning experience.

Nathan Daniel

I agree.

Tomislav Ratajec

Apart from the cancer of the monetary economy which has to be removed if there is ever to be true progress, we are still, when it's gone, going to be faced with serious problems, like for example feeding 6.9+ billion people.

Only science and technology applied correctly are going to solve that and a great many other problems, not buddhist gurus or art teachers (I am sorry if this offended anyone, it was not meant to.).

Three letters: T Z M.

Nathan Daniel

As I watch this again, the poetry and prose is so horrible it's cringe inducing. This video would be a great watch for English students wanting to learn about poetic cliche. Not only is the script horrible, the way he speaks is so smug and arrogant that it's hard for me to continue watching.

Guest

@ Nathan

You're right again. Plain GREED is the biggest reason not enough is being done about this. That, and plain complacency... And with a few big companies, that may otherwise be well enough in their intentions, there's an unwillingness to risk enormous capital in investments they aren't convinced yet will pay off soon enough. It would really help -in fact, it may only really WORK- if as many as possible are working on using existing "green" technology, as well as finding better long-term solutions, AT THE SAME TIME... which would eventually reduce the risk for those otherwise too afraid to take it. One of the main reasons I voted for Obama was that I was very hopeful we would finally have the political will to start working on these things in earnest, and begin rebuilding the American Economy and infrastructure around the green alternative, which was what he was putting out at the time as a serious prospect for replacing lost jobs and creating new industries. Obviously, that hasn't QUITE turned out the way I'd hoped. We've had WARS, among other things, to pay for, after all...

As far as the doc itself goes, I wasn't trying to change your mind about THAT at all. I mostly just wanted to make my point about our not necessarily being around; or at least not, as you say, at anything like the level we have been... Your post made me think of that George Carlin joke, which he made in response to those who feel the earth ITSELF has a problem. "The earth," he said, "is fine... The PEOPLE are screwed! This planet is going to shake us off like a bad case of fleas. It has withstood 4 billion years of meteor bombardments, ice ages, and mass extinctions...and we really think some PLASTIC-BAGS are going to put an end to it all? The earth will simply incorporate our waste into a new paradigm: The Earth, plus Plastic." Of course, the real situation is much more complicated than that, but I think it's a funny comment that makes a valid point. So, between that, and reading somewhere about the possibility of the planet finally resorting to "attacking" us -as if we were some kind of virus- because of the damage we've done, I felt it might be pertinent to mention it. To be honest, after reading your comment and others here, I haven't even watched the doc yet... though I'll be getting around to it soon. But I think I know well enough what it must be comprised of: Scare-tactics that tend to immobilize people, rather than getting them motivated in some way. And I really don't subscribe to that kind of thing, either.

reservoir

barter economy not practical the problem is usury (interest) making of currency a commodity like corn, oil, pork bellies etc, the other problem is that governments have currency printed but don't print the currency to pay for the interest .... and the other is fractional reserve banking well that makes it all absolutely ridicules

CapnCanard

... what you fail to realize is that there is no objective reality (i.e. it is all subjective) and until you come to understand then you are lost to the maya It is futile and I won't waste my time.

CapnCanard

as if YOUR OWN death actually means something!! Sorry to burst your bubble but you, me and all of us don't have a snowballs chance in H-E-double hockey sticks. This is beyond the objective simplicity that some school boys may absorb.

Guest

@Nathan
"As I watch this again, the poetry and prose is so horrible it's cringe inducing."
One helping was not enough this morning?
az

CapnCanard

Poetry and prose? you really are scraping for bottom of the barrel NO, are you seriously looking for poetry and prose? Give me a break!!! Poetry and prose? Why are you even looking at documentaries? Poertry? Prose? That is just so gay... Get over yourself bad azz self. This is a documentary and opinion is part of the mix, until you understand that, please save your very overrated opinion and give us some real reason to read your dreck.

Lucy Saw, you make that mistake that is repeated ad infinitum... why are you defending painfully weak arguments??? This doc is not about the Mr Bennett, it is Mr. Bennett's opinions and the whole of humanity and our failure to do anything with regard to our over consumption etc. etc. etc. Now the quality of the film may not be up to your impossible standards and if so then don't watch it. BUT!! BUT, because you defend the indefensible your commentary can thus be associated with a de facto support for THE RAPING OF NATURE. BEAUTIFUL...Nice, any handicapped children you want to kick in the teeth? I must say, it does suck being on the losing team but to those of us who hold nature in high esteem you lose points on moral grounds, not that that would matter to you. In your defense I must say that people like you give credence to the idea that humans are pigs. Cheers...

Guest

I am under the impression that anything passes as long as it doesn't have swear words. I don't think Vlatko and Epicurus (moderators) have time to read everything.
F***, Sh** and the likes will send your post to the waiting corner. If you use any swear words, use little stars in lieu of a letter or two.
If it is rudely unacceptable even though desguised, it will post but may get pulled later.

this is how it seems to be
az

Lucy Saw

I totally agree but I have another complaint. I believe anyone who takes on and internalizes ALL of the problems in the world to the point that they cannot sleep are mentally ill and secretly self-involved and not involved in changing any one thing at all. How can they be while huddled over screaming 'the horror, the horror'. I have a good friend who runs a wild life reserve in south east asia, she attended the Copenhagen Conference on global warning in 2009, she's completely involved in the movement to protect the environment and yet I have never known someone to live as full a life as she does. She's adopted a child, she has parties and she keeps her christmas tree up all year round since its her favorite holiday and, as she explains, you never know when the planet will go belly up but she doesn't whinge and whine and she doesn't feel helpless and she doesn't despair or want others to despair because after all 'what's the point?'. This guy is so completely overwhelmed by EVERYTHING that he cannot do anything about any one of them. You do what you can and then you don't worry about it. You live. Because if its all going down then its all going down, obviously from his point of view its already too late. The fact is that you cannot do anything about EVERYTHING. Pop open a beer and guzzle. Now THAT'S a way to go. The fact of the matter is that life in one shape or form or another will continue without human life. If its extinction for us then its extinction. Many species have become extinct and its arrogant to believe that we are so special that it either cannot happen to us, or even that it shouldn't happen to us. Life continues regardless.

Lucy Saw

That's not what he's saying, he's saying this guy's narrative is bad poetry and prose and that the first 7 minutes of him droning on about his neurotic reaction to the worlds problems, since he's made himself Atlas, is annoying. Its all the hand-wringing that's annoying not the message he's trying to convey which as he illustrates is hopeless. So what's his aim if its hopeless? Humans are not going to change absolutely everything. Even the narrator admits he 'drove to the country'. Why is he still driving an oil driven vehicle?

marcosanthonytoledo

I agree with documentary but what I fear is that our overlords will use the population problem as excuse to try to eliminate those people and social class an anybody that stand in their way or whose ideas and way of life they hate and fear due to their unwilling to share and to leave alone their fellow species let alone other life forms to flourish on their own.

DocLover247

Fear mongering, alarmist BS?
LMAO...ehhhh I would fact check that source you quote before you start calling BS.

"Volcanos release MUCH more co2 into the atmosphere yearly than man"

WRONG !!!!!!!

The ACTUAL FACT : On average, human activities put out in just three to five DAYS, the equivalent amount of carbon dioxide that volcanoes produce globally each year.

BOY.....if i had a penny for everytime I heard..."Volcanoes produce more co2 than humans" Look out Rockafellar LMAOOO

Volcanoes = 1/10th of a billion to a max of 1/2 a billion MT per year
Humans = 35 Billion MT per year on average

So humans at MINIMUM...produce 70 TIMES more CO2..than volcanoes....every...single....year.

Before repeating the Republican propaganda talking points they toss out to the masses to repeat like drones...(to make people FEEL informed)......
Do a bit of fact checking there buddy

And your welcome to check my facts..it doesn't come from Rush Limbaugh, Fox news, or any other skewed media outlet.....

The numbers Fox news and others are quoting....
are using volcano eruptions...of such HUGE magnitude...
and such rarity....that on average...
erupt every 2-3 MILLION years...LOL
"fair and balanced"

So essentially....A volcano eruption COULD come along, and produce MORE CO2 than humans in a year, but it only happens every 2 MILLION years...meanwhile we're doing that amount of pollution..every ..single...year

It seems the narrator of the Doc..isn't the one telling bullsh*t

Sgtpeprz

Wouldn't be the first time.

DocLover247

Your medication perscription seems to be a miss.
I would get that checked out

Name calling..lol...
Sorry, I'm not 12 anymore, but feel free to post away

Guest

Blowing a fuse?....but frankly i understand your frustration and agree on some of your points.
az

Guest

Somebody is doing homework!
az

Lucy Saw

I think he's a luddite. One of his 'experts' claims there are more and more people, but its in the technologically developed nations where demographics are dropping, like Europe and Japan, or sustaining themselves. Its the developing and under-developed nations where populations are rising. I find some of the people he interviews to be incredibly simplistic in their explanations of how we arrived at this point as he puts it. Also he posits that science creates solutions but doesn't tell us how to use its power, that's not the domain of science. If you listen closely they would prefer if all of mankind went back in time to a pre-industrial age, not even a pre-agricultural age which is utter nonsense. I mean in their minds even the Amish is contributing to the destruction of the planet because they engage in agriculture. Someone claims that Europeans are an 'invasive species' as if there were no conquering imperialistic colonizing group before them, there's a lot of tripe mixed with real information, he's also bitten off more than he can chew by tackling too many issues that really need to be dealt with in depth. He also doesn't ask the one burning question which is whether man is capable of living on earth with out expansion and progress, he assumes man can live up to perpetuity without advancement without considering what may have wiped out human populations if they did not use their noggin to control their environment. Too many wide sweeping statements and generalizations and what's even worse opinions offered as fact. Statements like 'Most of us don't have a human community where we can rest and feel safe and be taken cared. Really? Seriously? She knows this how? And within which ethno-centric cultural box does this opinion hinge? They speak as if all of world culture is living the same lifestyle. Finally he doesn't have any solutions except that we should all 'do something'. The fact is that if we really want change then we have to allow this system to fail and fail completely and see what's left to work with.

Sheik Yerbouti

its already failed, how long do we have to wait?! wtf tardbott!

DocLover247

lol AZ, nah, cool as a cucumber in the crisper drawer.

DocLover247

LMAO...AZ FTW

I will give Nathan this tho, I see he is a young guy, and good to see some young people finally wake up, or atleast pay attention.

The only "grim reality" we are facing is a teetering economy. The rest is BS.

CapnCanard

Very passive response to cataclysmic paradigm shift! Just sit back and do nothing? Seriously? Damn but that is fatalistic! But in your defense the list of actions is beyond encyclopedic. I would point out that what you fail to acknowledge is the failure of the Capitalist Economic model which is, by far the biggest contributor to this demise. Sure, one could make the suggestion that it is inevitable and I agree, but that doesn't mean all beings perish. BTW, small scale slow permaculture is just one means to sustainable levels and It will be difficult. I am annoyed because your comments seem to suggest you have a better film, and better ideas, well then where are they? Step up and stop whining. That aside, I believe that the real start is to retire this failed masturbatory capitalist monetary system. It will hurt but sitting passively will only increase our suffering. This film is actually quite good.

Nathan Daniel

... are you stupid? There are active volcanos all over the earth that constantly emit extremely concentrated greenhouse gases into the atmosphere on a level which greatly exceeds human greenhouse emissions. Get your facts straight.

CapnCanard

Yes, power and control... it is the story of empires and religions. My own two cents is to completely discard the monetary system and trade is skill, talent, intelligence, creativity, resources, et al. It is no more complex than the organized criminal oil economy we now suffer from and far less deadly.

Nathan Daniel

How old are you, 15? If grammar is any indication of intelligence, then ...

It's obvious you are not emotionally mature. You have said to other people "looks like you forgot to take your medication"... hahaha! Trolls never cease to amaze me!

CapnCanard

Well said DocLover247!!! But it is difficult getting past most peoples chosen level of ignorance. I share your frustration with those with no ability to think critically.

Guest

Now Now!@Nathan Daniel
Name calling??????
Stupid is not a very nice thing to say to someone! Do you know him? Funny how you like to dish out but don't like to eat your own serving.
az

Guest

How many times will you come on this doc and NOT answer my questions?
az

KsDevil

A dizzingy colection of metaphors. But, as alluded in the documentary, metaphors are one of the ways we use to divert our atention from reality. Even that is often diverted from our attention. I have seen people who are so caught up in the "speeding train" that even metaphor is beyond their conciousness. Those people need clearly diagrammed and documented steps to follow to change their direction...like leaving bread crumbs.
This documentary, in some ways, is singing to the choir and missing the audience that needs to hear this information.
I guess it is up to the choir to start baking bread. (see i can do metaphors, too)

Guest

Redundant. Groundhog's Day. Talk talk talk. Deja vu all over again.

Achems_Razor

"People that talk in metaphors, oughta shampoo my crouch!"

(Jack Nicholson)

Achems_Razor

Howdy there man, you sound like you have the quantum jitters, for your information there are approx. 1500 active volcanoes at any given time in the world.

In the news, Iceland's most powerful volcano just erupted, another in Iceland may erupt soon.

Guest

It came out in 2007, was probably researched a few years before, wonder what he would say now. The world is changing fast these days!
If you were to come up with something new, what would it be?
az

Guest

crouch or crotch?
az

Achems_Razor

Azilda, your right! crotch, not crouch.

Always have trouble with the English language.

DocLover247

OOO, you mean that comment....that was flagged...and removed....because it talked about a insinuated plan to go kill myself. Yeah..stand up for that intellectual level..lol wow

Grammar was spot on...other than a usual typo or 2

Troll? Me? I think trolls spew remarks such as....
"volcanoes produce more co2 than humans in a year"

OF COURSE you did ZERO research on the subject...repeating bullsh** as if it was fact. You seem pist I proved you wrong.

How about being amazed by the actual FACTS for once..lol

DocLover247

LOL...ok...In response to Nathan Daniel...
"Are you stupid??, there are 1,000 volcanoes around the world..blah blah blah"
As I already told you...You are wrong

But, But, But...they said it on Fox news...so it MUST be correct.. right Nathan?

Volcanoes = Produce 1/10th to a MAX 1/2 Billion metric tons of CO2 each year.
Humans = Produce 35 Billion metric tons of CO2 each year.
Humans at MINIMUM...produce 70 TIMES more pollution than volcanoes per year

This INCLUDES volcano eruptions, it includes ALL the volcanoes GLOBALLY.
It is up to date info...which also includes 2010 data.
It is from the Department of Interior, Geological Survey

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand Nathan?
I mean, I know it's really depressing for you to find out the news source you use is...should I say..."complete, fear mongering, alarmist BS" ? LOL

"The most frequent question that I have gotten (and still get), in my 30 some years as a volcanic gas Geochemist from the general public and from Geoscientists working in fields outside of volcanology, is...
'Do volcanoes emit more CO2 than human activities?'
Research findings indicate unequivocally that the answer to this question is NO—anthropogenic CO2 emissions DRAWF global volcanic CO2 emissions,"

"Calculations suggest present-day annual anthropogenic CO2 emissions may exceed the CO2 output of ONE OR MORE SUPER-eruptions PER YEAR. Super eruptions are extremely rare with recurrence intervals of 100,000-200,000 years; NONE have occurred historically, the most recent examples being the Toba eruption 74,000 years ago in Indonesia and the Yellowstone caldera eruption in the United States 2 million years ago."

SO...Essentially...the data you are quoting....
Is comparing Human CO2 output per year....
To a volcano SUPER-ERUPTION....
which in the history of Earth...has NEVER happened..LOL
And the "closest" pollution level to one of these....
was 74,000 years ago globally, and 2 million years ago in US

BOY..I know I can breath better now!! LOL
Come back and talk to me Nathan when your depth exceeds a few mouse clicks and a rant in a comment box.
Careful when calling someone stupid..as you just may be the stupid one
I tend to like the actual facts....not talking points propaganda
Call me crazy

Guest

Azilda-it's not just this documentary, it is all of them. Over and over its the same thing. We know these things. There is no flash bulletin here. Global weather change is already here. Its not a matter of prevention, it is now a matter of dealing with it.

DocLover247

@Achems_Razor

FYI? lol I already gave you the actual data, the actual facts.
That includes all volcanoes globally.

Erupted, not erupted...doesn't matter. The pollution level...is the pollution level.
Sorry to burst every one's bubble...but your gas hog....
is polluting the HELL out of the Earth..like it or not...that's the facts
Once again, the mass media BS deception fooled everyone.

tom

Beep boop. Must kill all human scum. Boop beep.

Silly Malthusians.
Trix are for kids!

Better get more food, water and ammo looks like your numbers are growing... Again..

AlfBeta

@LucySaw
"why is he still driving an oil-powered vehicle?" It's not hypocrisy
Because we are embedded in a situation in which we must use such things and seemingly contradict our own ideals.
Also, it may be tht we could use all of these things safely. Resources, we could have a small vehicle each built to rolls-royce standard instead of disposable standard, but The Economy God would be angry with us and punish transgressors.

Sertsis

Steady on, doclover-boy, opinions aren't evil or stupid.

wald0

Yeah, I checked that out. I love the idea, but I am not sure it could work in reality. I may be wrong, before anyone gets mad, but that's how I feel. I also wonder how we would ever make the transition to a resource based economy. Besides, like I said I am tired of talking and debating, being involved in political activism and campaigns, etc. I want to do something more hands on, more right now, be more involved with real everyday people. With cobb building when you are done you can actually see real change in someones life, real happiness and relief. It's not for everyone, some people would rather be involved in something like zeitgeist or political activism and debate. I did that stuff for years and I certainly hope others continue with it but, this is better for me. I don't get so angry and frustrated, I can see real change coming about, I get to help people that really need it, I get to play in the mud, and of course I get something out of this for myself as well. I needed to build a home and couldn't afford to go into debt. Perhaps Mr. Fresco would be interested in some cobb structures for his futuristic cities though. (LOL) I don't think they would fit in really.

DocLover247

..I wasn't the one calling anyone stupid..that was his comment. Thus my response, with the actual facts to back it up..VS hopes and dreams of being correct

wald0

You imply purpose when you say, "a major function of volcanoes is to pour highgrade fertiliser around it" This is not a "major function" of the volcano, it is merely a side effect of the eruptions that volcanoes produce. That would be like saying a major function of cold medicine is to give you the dry mouth. NO, that's just a side effect of the medicine not its function. To say it is the volcanoes function is to say they erupt in order to replenish the soil, which not true. They erupt because too much pressure builds up and they have to erupt. Besides, like I told you already the decay of organic material is what replenishes ninety percent of the soil on earth, not volcanoes. And yes, volcanoes are simply the result of heat and pressure building up under the ground, period. No other magic involved, no need to look for functions or purpose. They are simply a result of heat and pressure. Look it up if you don't believe me. Yes, there is much more involved in why they form in one place and not another, or why the erupt one way while others erupt differently but, they all formed because of heat and pressure building up under ground.

Now, the second thing you said that caused my response.
"I would expect that a huge depletion of topsoil fertility as man has done, could cause a response of increased volcanic activity." You are suggesting the volcano "responded" to the soil being depleted when there is no direct causal chain linking soil depletion and volcanic eruptions. If you can show one I will capitulate. How does the volcano know the soil is depleted? What physical reaction takes place because the soil is depleted that eventually leads to a volcano erupting? Its nonsense, period- and whether you like it or not science doesn't support your hypothesis.

In your last post you said, "Has no scientist observed an intricate integration of function?" I think you are trying to ask whether or not scientist have studied causal chains in extent, to see if some small action in one place and time could cause something seemingly totally unrelated to happen millions of miles away and maybe a year down the road. This is called the chaos theory AKA the butterfly effect and, yes science has studied this. But it in no way frees us up to make wild connections like soil depletion causes volcanic eruptions. To make those kinds of assertions we need proof, a direct causal chain linking the two occurrences. Otherwise we could link any two events we liked.

You also said, "It doesn't need purpose or design or sensory awareness to react." You didn't just say it reacted, you said that fertilizing the soil was its "major function" and that it reacted to something it is not directly connected to via cause and effect. There is a huge difference.

Oh, and btw the co2 bit was about the post addressed to Azilda saying that global warming was man made because volcanoes produce more co2 than humans. The post you were supposed to be responding to when you asserted what you call science. And, my declaration that the scientific method was the best means to find truth was directed at those that deny global warming- not you. That said, I can see why you have heard the "sermon" many times. Asserting things like volcanoes erupt more often when the soil is depleted and with the explicit purpose of replenishing it without any scientific data or proof to back it up doesn't suggest to people that you are very scientifically minded.

David Foster

If a tree falls in the forest, and Alex Jones was not there to hear it, is it still a conspiracy?

Guest

@lakhotson....and my question?
az

melloyeyo

I was thinking about Pink Floyd The Wall this morning and then... this. You are right, this is redundant for all us, but not for most people. This kind of John the Baptist talk is always needed in society. So, it's depressing, redundant and torturing, but very welcome.

Adrian Bos

1. It's a kangaroo and
2. Kangaroos don't put their head in the sand. I should know, I'm Australian. I ride one to work every day.

Guest

Yep! Kangaroos don't normally put their head in the sand!
Agreed
az

SaintNarcissus

Jesus himself never said anything about being in our hearts. He never said anything about being saved from damnation through a sinner's prayer. that's all pretty recent stuff. He in fact taught a gospel of living in the present...not lost in a fantasy of the afterlife. I am a follower of this Jesus...the one who essentially said...here is what the Kingdom of God should look like (sermon on the mount), now its up to you to go do it...here and now! Now, the esoteric ideas of what happens when its all over here on earth are a different story. That is not our concern or responsibility. It's my belief that we will all meet the love the created everything one day, but I don't live for that day. I live now alive to this moment and to be alive to this moment means I have a responsibility here and now. I get so frustrated that Christians often live in a copout where they (we I suppose) dismiss disasters for which we are responsible, like the environment because "Jesus is coming back" or whatever. If he does come back tomorrow, I think he's likely to say things like, "you have broken my heart. we created a beautiful place for you to live with your fellow creatures, and you threw it away. Then you had the audacity to say its all okay because I am in your heart. Clearly I am not in your heart at all." Faith in Christ provides no excuse whatsoever to sidestep the horrors that we are facing as a species. I could ramble more as always but I'll reign it in.

SaintNarcissus

Thanks. As always I enjoy your comments. I am actively wrestling with how to make more and more such changes. For now, my wife and two kids and I share a small fuel-efficient car. I bike everywhere I can. Each year our little city yard has less grass and more vegetables. I learn all I can about wild edibles, and traditional (primitive) lifestyles. I scavenge odds and ends from the woods to make bows and arrows. I plan to learn to hunt small game (species that are overpopulated such as rabbit, Canadian Geese, etc.) and get used to the taste of things I can acquire that way. No cable TV in my house! No smart phones in my family. Something we are going to try as a family is for each thing we purchase or acquire, we will give away or part with one. Additionally, at the end of each week we'll each choose one thing to give away. The idea being - we will gradually (drastic measures don't work real well with 5 and 3 year olds) reduce our "stuff." Likewise with clothes, I am gradually reducing what I have and would like to get down to just a few of each article of clothing. My wife and I dream (in the active sense) of selling our house in the city and carving out a rural plot to build a small effecient cob house where I can write, we can just live and raise our family, welcome strangers among us, maybe teach some things we've learned to anyone who might benefit from it and so on.

All these kind of things are possible, but they are a bit more challenging when you are responsible for more than just yourself. This is not to criticize you in any way AZ, but I think its interesting to observe that often people (again not referring to you) who are on the preachy side about such things, are often single and unattached. As we work toward positive solutions we have to keep in mind that what works for one, may not work in the same way for a family. In any case, I'm a pessimist in the sense that I think it will have to get much worse before it gets better, but an optimist in the sense that I now understand I and my family truly need very little to survive and be content. Better we strip away what we don't need now of our own choosing than painfully when it is the only option.

SaintNarcissus

By the way, I don't intend or want for my post in reply to you to come off as an attack. I actually really like some of the things you have to say. I, as a fellow Jesus follower, just have some perhaps differently nuanced beliefs about the theology of what it means to be a Christian, and I am admittedly frustrated by what I see as various ways the Christian faith and narrative have been railroaded over the millenia, with the most recent being this new concept in the last century that there exists this formula: "I am a sinner and therefore doomed to hell. Fortunately Jesus' whole purpose in coming to earth was to do a bit of teaching and then be punished unto death in my place. Now I will go to heaven, but only after I have said a prayer that clarifies that I accept all of the above." That whole thing did not come from Jesus. It barely even comes from Paul. It's a destructive theology that separates us from others unnecessarily. So, that's what I'm attacking. I don't want you to think I'm attacking you personally. Peace.

SaintNarcissus

I guess I've been eating healthy then! Both of my kids were conceived at the earliest biologically possibly moment! :)

Joe_NYC

Poetic? I am not sure about that and I stopped after 20 minutes of dizzying metaphors. I prefer un-massaged facts so I can make up my own mind. Still, better than nothing, I guess.

10/10 - for ignorant americans who are used to biblical (NT) metaphors and who believe Palin can see Russia from her porch.
5/10 - for everybody else

0zyxcba1

@SaintNarcissus, "you have broken my heart. we created a beautiful place for you to live with your fellow creatures, and you threw it away. Then you had the audacity to say its all okay because I am in your heart. Clearly I am not in your heart at all."

Golly, gosh!

I feel bad, guilty, frightened, already. It's only Noon where I live, and I haven't even done anything rotten, yet, and I am too busy keeping my job to save the world from corporate disaster.

Your Jesus never existed in the first instance. And were there some Triune BilliardBall, for real, DckCheney wouldn't exist.

Sorry. Fail.

Try again.

0z

P.S.:
'Narcissus' ? Nice name you got(sans Saint).

P.P.S:
Do you really believe in talking snakes and Original Sin.
Or do you think we descended from the African Family
of Great Apes?

I will answer your specific questions but I'm not going to "get into it" because I have done so plenty of times on TDF and have articulated my beliefs in great detail. Your clearly have me completely figured out sight unseen anyway so you can proceed with your out of the box closed-minded self-superior talking points with a wall or anyone who will listen. If you have serious questions, as in you actually desire to understand why and how I could believe what I do, then I'm happy to discuss. Privately even, that's likely to be more productive. As to your specific questions:

You are in a very small minority among even the most secular of historians to suggest that Jesus did not exist. Many nonbelievers who have studied far more than I can argue that with you. I'm not a scholar so I'm not interested in doing so. Similarly I am not interested in arguing that water is comprised of Hydrogen and Oxygen because there are scientists who could make the point better than I can. I don't plan on trying again, as my current go 'round is working out just fine for me. Again if you have any interest in a genuine discussion, rather than a snark fest with meaningless one word sentences such as "fail" I'm open to you ideas and would be happy to share mine with you.

Thank you for the compliment on my name. It is intended to mean several things. I accept the fact that its always a struggle to not be self-obsessed but I do all I can to place the focus and priority on others in my sphere instead of on me.

Finally, no I don't believe in talking snakes and original sin. I believe the creation narrative is a poem, not a science book. I think, like most reasonable people, that Darwin's concept of evolution is the most plausible explanation for human origin and general development of life on our planet. The doctrine of original sin is largely an Augustinian concept. I disagree with him.

Let me predict what comes next. You will now accuse me of not being a "real" Christian, because I don't believe the things that you have decided/been told/find convenient to be legitimate Christianity. You will thereby in your mind win some imaginary argument and be satisfied once again that your prejudgment of billions of human beings you've never met is based on sound reasoning indeed. Carry on.

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

Matthew 27:52-53
The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

The marketers follows up with:
"Readers of the gospels are often puzzled by a short passage at,
which comes just after the description of Jesus' death on the cross.
The passage reads as follows: [as seen above].

When embarrassingly inconvenient, such passages are glossed over, rarely mentioned, or seen and dutifully noted as "short." And, of course, there are always one or a hundred 'explainings' explaining away such trivialities, whereas the Leviticus kill gays(even shorter) is mentioned, ad infinitum, and, strangely, is noted as Crystal Clear! Odd, that, don't you think? (lol).

Now, if this short passage says what it means(and why shouldn't it?), don't you think it would have been reported in all the newspapers and been on Oprah?

Odd.

0z

SaintNarcissus

there doesn't seem to be a way to reply to a reply so I'm plugging in here...

@oxy - what on earth does your last reply have to do with anything that I said? Perhaps you should just start your own blog where you can launch random thoughts about why you think religious people are fools rather than waiting for a stranger to walk by and then tossing irrelevant "truth" bombs in our direction.

Achems_Razor

I can't believe all the religious mumbo-jumbo thinking there even was such a person as Christ.

There is no Isis, Zeus, Apollo, Brahma, Ganesha, Mithra, Allah, Yahweh, and the latest deity, Jesus. Or even the flying spaghetti Monster.

That's it, am going back to Pandora, where I know there is one true God "Ehwa"

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus"You are in a very small minority among even the most secular of historians to suggest that Jesus did not exist."

You're joking ? right?

0z

Guest

@SaintNarcissus
Nice post, nice slow family life.
May be it depends where people live but here in the mountains there are many families living that exact life style. I don't doubt that trying to slow down the pace and to get back to Mother Nature while living in the city is a bit more challenging.

" Better we strip away what we don't need now of our own choosing than painfully when it is the only option."
That can happen anytime to anyone.
Might as well liberate oneself from the extra load.
I love the freedom of not having much.
az

Guest

There is nothing new to come up with. The writing is on the wall. Climate change has already begun and we have no way of mitigating it much less stopping it. If the human race didn't put one additional atom of carbon in the atmosphere it would make no difference. Starvation and disease are going to certainly kill millions and most likely billions. We didn't fix the problem and now Mother Nature is going to fix it for us. And we are not going to like it.

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

Here's a fun fact:

Before eating from the 'Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil', neither Adam, nor Eve, could possibly have known that disobedience was wrong.

Right?

It follows, therefore, that only AFTER the great and ancient Agricultural Transgression could sin #1 have been committed
(if it was committed at all ? of which we have no proof).

The first sin mentioned in the Bible is the murder by Cain of Able.

After having eaten of the 'Forbidden Fruit', thus first enabling Adam and Eve to sin, what if were only one of them to have sinned, say, oh, just for the hell of it, Eve. Would this hypothetical 'Sin of Eve' then count as 'The Sin of Man'? What if neither of them were to have exercised this new found ability to sin? ? at least until the kids were born. If Adam had not committed the Original Sin(let's be honest: Eve didn't really count for anything more than a flower pot and, of course, as Adam's 'little helper'), at least until the kids were born, the kids would then be born, each, free of Original Sin, now wouldn't they?

This is called 'logic' ? the Christian's worst nightmare.

Now, we have all these brats running about(without Original Sin), brother and sister, screwing each other blind, sinful as hell, but each free of the 'biggy': Original Sin!

Gee, whiz!

We already need a Darwin! to sort things out.

...to be continued...

0z

madala

Hav'ent watched flick, read all the comments to date, often quit interested I am and contemplative but usually forget soon later, first time to comment; "I think you got it in one". Duel, a little sand paper, a stained bent spoon and a new handle for a chain file a little post some dust, foot steps.

I know a person investing in a revolution; based on the African and his white complaint, I's be the media man, if i would(real good) I'm an artist. We is cloud in the permanent form, "is" are best guess, mine is yours is yours and altogether we are 60% some unconsciousness inhibition down right nasty 40% on the primitiveness, thank god for them looking at some of the cooler room attendants in this form. lol

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

This one's always puzzled me.

Let's say Adam and Even spawned without having exercised their new found ability to sin. Then, of course, as mentioned, the kids would be, each, born free of Original Sin. Does this mean that to be ale to sin, at all, they'd have to somehow wheedle their way into Eden to gobble up forbidden fruit so as to know right from wrong, or was that knowledge separate from Original Sin and passed on genetically from Mom and Dad, independently of whether or not Dad(remember Mommy didn't really count) had committed the Original Sin? Because, if you had to be born of someone with Original Sin in order to be able to sin, at all, then everything get soooooper complicated. Or maybe it was not a package deal, and just eating the fruit gave Adam the ability to pass on, genetically, knowledge of Good and Evil, via his seed alone, squirt into the flower pot.

This is where I could use your guidance,

Another perplexing supposition: say only Eve had eaten of the Tree, and Adam had not. Then, what? Or the other way around ? only Adam. I have always been in a quandary over this deep theological question.

[ And now, something totally off topic. How long before Onan had coitus interrupts been designated as a no-no ? -- And is Onan the justification some religie sheeple use to condemn masturbation and, if so, how could this possibly apply to women(or, on this fine point, do women have equal rights ? ]

Oh, so, so many question! -- The Devil is indeed in the details.

BACK to topic: If a 'modern' xtian(sorry, I mean 'Christian') buys into an ancient earth and is into evolution(and why not?!), then how did Original Sin occur: Homo erectus? Homo heidelbergensis? I know! Cro-Magnon Man must have been the culprit! Modern Homo-sapiens evolved independently in at least three areas of the globe. Australia, Africa, and Asia and interbred over time giving rise to the wholly modern homo-sapiens we all know and screw today! Which of these three threads of modern humans was possibly responsible for the horrific deed giving rise to Original Sin, and were the other two 'threads' exempt? How might Original Sin have been passed on to the other two families? Or are we now into, dare I say the word: supernatural?

...questions, questions, ever more questions...

0z

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus, could Neanderthals sin?

0z

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

I am gay.

When I lie with womankind, I snore.
When I lie with my boyfriend,... Well, that's privileged information.

Upshot?(no pun intended):

When I lie with 'mankind', I do NOT do so as I would with womankind(that's for damned sure!).

Does this mean I'm safe, at least from this treacherous pitfall?

0z

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

"I will answer your specific questions but I'm not going to "get into it" because I have done so plenty of times on TDF and have articulated my beliefs in great detail."

I have never, until now, read so much as one single one of your posts, so how might your statement seen here above apply?

In other words, what might the distinction be between your promise to "...answer [my] specific questions..." as opposes to you declaration that "...[you are ] not going to 'get into it'..." ???

0z

Enigma

Choose to watch this doc. I give it a 10+.

"the man who cannot lead himself will always be looking for a leader. Stop looking for a leader."

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

"Finally, no I don't believe in talking snakes and original sin.
I believe the creation narrative is a poem, not a science book."

Have you always held this stance? Or did you 'switch over' when you realized how insane the literal is?

You are aware, aren't you, that you are going straight to hell. Just ask any number of real Christians, starting with Fundies. They all swear, not just that they are right, but, further, that they KNOW they are right, just like 'C_and_N' knows he's right. (Holy Spook, and all, you know.)

Aren't you just a little ascared?

If Genesis a but a 'poem', why no metre? Why no rhyme? And where, in your calculations, does poetry leave off and 'reality' begin ? or is it a game of hopscotch with one eye on always
on the latest scoop from Scientific American ?

Did you believe in talking snakes when you were a kid? ? If so, when did you 'awaken'?

Would you most likely be Muslim had you been born in Saudi Arabia to Muslim parents?

Questions! Questions! So many questions!

Do you believe in Original Sin? ? NO! ? So how does Salvation figure in?

And, again, aren't you ascared, because SO many REAL Christians KNOW you're going straight to hell?

Did you know that faith is directly responsible for more death and suffering than all wars combined and makes Stalin and Hitler and Pol Pot look like martyred saints? ? Or shall I educate you? ? Did you know that all religion is objectively immoral?

0z

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

Do you believe in 'sin'?

And by sin, I do not refer to unethical behavior.

0z

SaintNarcissus

Oz, I'll respond tomorrow. No time tonight. As with most of my attackers on TDF I actually think we would enjoy each others' company and conversation if we met outside of this abstract environment. Sadly, you detest me already without that being a remote possibility. I promise you, whatever we both believe and disagree about my life and yours would be better if we approached one another with civility and respect.

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

Do you believe in the 'supernatural'?

Do you believe in 'miracles'?

Do you believe in Jesus, the living Christ, at One with His MONSTER Father, and in the story of His having arose from the grave and floated up into the stratosphere and up through and beyond the Van Allen radiation belt where He is alive in the holy, living 'Transfigured' flesh, now? And, if so, in which quadrant of the Milky Way does He reside? ? Or is the Resurrection also just a 'poem'?

Do you think people should be old enough to drink before allowed into a church(with ID check at the 'gateway')? ? And if not, why not?

Are you not concerned about corrupting children with your bad example of lending credence to the notion that 'faith' is good and of value? ? And if not, why not?

Do you care about anything real, or is reality just sort of 'there'; of no real interest; of no ultimate importance?

Why do you lend the dignity of your very existence to a paradigm that kills, every day, day in, day out? Why? ? Or don't you care, just as 'C_and_N' does not care?

0z

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

Why did you CHOOSE the superstition 'lifestyle', or were you 'recruited'?

What is your view concerning the FACT that since the 1979 revolution FAITH has executed 4000 young gay men in the Islamic Republic of Iran?

Why do you like the killer called 'faith'? Why?

Answer me!

0z

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

Shame on you!

0z

Judy M.

if he didn't start out like that, maybe the world can care of what he says.

that was the worst crap ever.

the problem is greed people nothing else.

IsQs

At least someone is finally saying it outloud. I feel alienated and messed up. Relationships are way more important than I thought.

ZarathustraSpeaks

Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. You could see them standing in the amber current where the white edges of their fins wimpled softly in the fl. They smelled of moss in your hand. Polished and muscular and torsional. On their backs were vermiculite patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not to be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.
Cormac McCarthy
The Road, last lines of novel.

ZarathustraSpeaks

Nice, who's the author?

Lord_humongous

This guy is probably a blast at dinner parties. We deserve what we get people, we have been extremely poor stewards of this planet.

SaintNarcissus

@Ozy,

Am I allowed to ask any questions of you? Is this in any way shape or form a dialogue? It seems more like one-sided irrational mania. I will make a last attempt at something of a discussion as opposed to shouting above your hail of insults to be heard. Okay, I will try to find your various specific questions to me amid the blitzkrieg of comments. I will not respond to random attacks on passages from the Bible, as you are not truly asking any question of me, but rather hurling arguments at a wall. It is like raising a cut out cardboard standee of Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris or something and playing an audio recording of "why your religion is st*pid's greatest hits" and then suggesting that I should respond as if a real person has just spoken to me. So, I'll attempt respond to things you've said that are actually and intelligibly directed at me. If you will have the decency to read my answers, and take me at face value as a fellow human being, instead of scanning for buzzwords about which you have a ready-made zinger, I think we will both be the better for our discussion. I can't ask you to respect me I suppose, because for starters you clearly do not, based on a list of preconceptions. However, I might ask that you attempt to treat the words which I am now going to carefully and thoughtfully compose with a modicum of respect: and therefore read them for their actual content - not the content you have already predicted. I will split my answers into a few numbered posts so it's not overwhelming.

SaintNarcissus

#1 - no I'm not joking. You and Occam's Razor are in a small minority of people who suggest that any real weight of historical scholarship disproves the existence of a human being about whom the stories and legacy of Jesus Christ have arisen. Using emphatic sentence fragments does not change this fact.

SaintNarcissus

#2 - Your whole thing about original sin and who was born when and who screwed who, etc...I already stated my view on the origin myths found i Genesis. Regarding your claim that logic is the Christian's worst nightmare: this is true of some people, as it is selectively true of you when your rage blinds your thinking. However, I see rational thought and logic as complementary to my faith experience; emphasis on experience. Hence, I believe what I have experienced myself and I do not expect you or anyone else to accept similar beliefs or claims absent your own experience. If you read ancient Irish Christian philosopher, John Scotus Eriugena, he elucidates this concept of reason and faith being non-exclusive. I agree with him.

SaintNarcissus

#3 - Sin. Somewhere in there you asked me what is sin. I already told you I don't believe in Augustine's doctrine of original sin, so I won't re-explain that or answer the minutia of your questions about a doctrine I disbelieve in. Could neanderthals sin? I am neither an anthropologist or a biologist and would not have a clue where to begin speculating on that and it is of no importance to me to answer this question. On the nature of what is sin itself. My belief is that we are spiritual beings who likely each have some kind of ancient past and distant future - incidentally I think the present is where it is most life-giving to focus. I believe that there is a Creator, a divine source of love, of energy, etc. who embodies the perfection of love. This being, God, desires that all living things would be set free to live and behave according only to love - hence Jesus's reduction of all the minutia of moral law to: Love God and love everyone else. Whatever runs counter to this love and causes harm to self, to creation, to others represents a choice that is what I would call sin. These choices grieve God primarily because they wound the one who makes them and they are generally choices made because we all live amongst others who have made such choices which have injured our spirits. This is not a result of original sin. It is a result of free will. Sin is not something about which to wallow in guilt, but rather bad choices and bad thinking (like in an addiction cycle) from which we all need to be healed. This brings me to one of your other questions. What is salvation?

SaintNarcissus

#4 - What is Salvation? I do not believe, and you might be surprised to hear that I am far from alone in this among Christians over the millenia - in the concept of substitutionary atonement: ie the concept that Jesus's death was to satisfy a requirement of justice being enforced by a murderous Father God. So, for me salvation is not a get-out-of-hell-free ticket, but a process throughout the course of life, of re-aligning. Being healed of all the internal collateral damage that comes as the result of my own and others choices. It is a process of “repenting” in the literal sense. Repent means to turn; to turn and go another and better way. So, in each place where I have gone a wrong way by fault of my own or not, I am able to receive healing and be saved from myself and my suffering by choosing the perfection of Godly love over the dysfunction. Paul talks about “working out our salvation with fear and trembling” that is what it feels like at times. The result is indeed a “saved” life where there is progressively more love and peace and less resentment, distrust, anger, bitterness, craven selfishness. That is what I believe salvation is. So if a fundamentalist Christian were to ask me, “are you saved?” or “when did you get saved?” I would say: yes I am being saved, today. Always. One day at a time. The salvation has nothing to do with being saved from one kind of afterlife. The notion of being saved from hell, whatever that might be, by saying a certain set of words…that doesn’t come from Jesus. It is a rather recent invention and I reject it.

SaintNarcissus

#5 – Your question about sexuality – I am not sure I understand what treacherous pitfall you are talking about. As I have probably made pretty clear, I am not a biblical fundamentalist or literalist, so whatever scripture you are likely referring to is not something I’m concerned with. Whatever pitfalls you may be in danger of are not my business. I am not interested in assisting strangers make moral decisions. If you were truly asking (which I suspect you are not), I would be far more concerned with the anger and vitriol that seems to drive much of your thinking than about who you are sleeping with.

#6 – Have I always held my current stance? No, my belief system has been growing, changing, and evolving, hopefully maturing like any person’s would or should I guess. I grew up with the usual Bible stories and such but was encouraged to question and pursue the answers to even the difficult ones. There was no point of switching over to answer your question. If it were not for transformative personal experiences, I would likely be an atheist, as I accept that pure cold empirical logic could lead someone there. However, I have experienced God in such a way that I need not base this spiritual sphere of my life on some kind of scientific inquiry. So far, spirituality is not scientific so it need not tell science what conclusions to draw, nor should those handling scientific concerns contemptuously tell those who handle spiritual realities what conclusions to draw. They may comfortably exists side by side when we allow them.

#7 – Am I aware that according to a number of real Christians I am going straight to hell? Yes, I am aware that many people feel this way. I am not sure what makes them real or not though. I have observed that in this sort of discussion, people like yourself seem to prefer arguing with the fundies because they say all the silly stuff you love to attack. Isn’t it a little too easy and simplistic on your part to discredit my Christianity – saying I’m not a real Christian – simply because I don’t hold the views that are easy for you to heap derision on and defang? The truth is I am in good company. Whether or not you choose to accept or appreciate the facts, there are plenty of Christians – and have been since the beginning – that are not “fundies” and not literalists. And no, I’m not just a little scared. I have experienced enough of a loving God to be confident in my belief that I, and you, have nothing to fear.

SaintNarcissus

#8 – If Genesis is but a poem, why no metre, why no rhyme? The level of reasoning in this question is on par with a 3rd grade schoolyard debate. Sorry, but that is just silly. We all know poetry is far more varied than that. I’m not an expert in 5,000 year old Hebrew. Are you? Okay. Moving on. Where does poetry leave off and reality begin? I don’t know. I don’t need to know. What I know and believe is in the context of what I have experienced spiritually and all else is subject to scrutiny. However, I’m not interested in scrutinizing the old testament. I believe, as do many secular anthropologists and archaeologists that a number of the events in the Hebrew scriptures reflect in some way real events that happened to a real group of people. However, when it comes to the supernatural happenings, I make no claim to know which of them are metaphorical, imagined, mythological, or anything else. Whatever happened to those people in that time, happened to them and not me. Just as I will not deride your experience and discredit it, I will not do to ancient Israelites. The person of Jesus who taught a life-giving and life-changing message did in fact emerge from that tradition and that set of stories so I am not saying they are all irrelevant to me, but they are certainly confusing. I don’t need all the answers because my faith and how I practice it is not based upon empirical certification. It is based upon my own experience and my intimate interaction with the words of Christ and others. I am as interested in questions as I am answers. However, where you and I seem to differ, is that you ask questions with the lingering expectation that given a certain answer you will have a satisfying “gotcha” moment. I ask questions because I believe the answers are usually surprising and enlightening…and until they are known, truly unknown, not bound to my preconceptions.

#9 – Would I most like be Muslim if born in Saudi Arabia to Muslim parents? Of course! And if that were the case but I am who I am, I hope I would be faithfully pursuing a means of experiencing God such that my life is a good one and such that it contributes to the world as opposed to toxifying it. There are plenty of Muslims doing this. But that is largely rhetorical, so not much point in going further.

#10 – And again aren’t I scared because of what other Christians believe? No. They are entitled to their belief and I genuinely pray that they have an opportunity to be freed from fear themselves in this lifetime. I am not even a little bit “ascared.”

GoughLewis

This movie starts with a request from the filmmaker not to think while watching the film, but...to just let the film wash into your mind. Followed by a man about to jump out of a window to his death, with apocalyptic drivel voice over narrative "...bad humans must die, all humans must die..."

No fear, there are consorted efforts to kill off significant majority of the earths human population. So, before you go struggle ethically whether to jump out the window to save the planet... the Global Governance crowd have already made that decision for you.

I am just sceptical. Since the UN's I.P.C.C. & C.R.U. frauds where exposed in the Climate Gate Scandal that rocked the science world about how they faked, manipulated, just outright lied about global warming, leading to a lot of willful misinformation disseminated globally. For example, that hockey stick chart in An Inconvenient Truth... a lie, outright lie from the UN's I.P.C.C. & C.R.U. I just don't respond to the gloom and doom climate warming/cooling/change thing since they tried to tie it all into a Global Carbon Tax scheme to tax every living human on the planet and give all the money to the IMF and Al Gore. Jesus... hilarious. As if Al Gore needs to make anymore money on Climate Change/Carbon Tax, he's already made a quarter Billion dollars off this racket. How many more private jets do you need Mr. Gore, you have two already?

Well, at least CO2 is a big hit with the plants and trees of this planet, thats what they breath.

SaintNarcissus

#11 - Did you know that faith is directly responsible for more death and suffering than all wars combined and makes Stalin and Hitler and Pol Pot look like martyred saints? I did not know this. I am under the impression that numbers would indicate the reverse. Please feel free to educate me. “Did you know that all religion is objectively immoral?” No. I did not. I don’t know what you mean.

#12 - Do you believe in the 'supernatural'? Yes. But that probably means different things to you and me.
Do you believe in 'miracles'? Yes. But I believe they are far less common than most religious people assert. The miracles of most value to me are not the ones wherein the natural order is seemingly momentarily subverted, but rather the ones wherein the true nature of the divine is directly revealed and manifested, such as in the common near death experience of overwhelming love. An experience I have had without an NDE.

"Do you believe in Jesus, the living Christ, at One with His MONSTER Father, and in the story of His having arose from the grave and floated up into the stratosphere and up through and beyond the Van Allen radiation belt where He is alive in the holy, living 'Transfigured' flesh, now? And, if so, in which quadrant of the Milky Way does He reside? ? Or is the Resurrection also just a 'poem'?"

Is there a real question in here or just another slew of insults? I do believe in the living Christ, resurrected. I don’t know if he occupies a physical space as we currently understand it or where that might be. With multiverses and the like, seemingly anything is possible even within the bounds of theoretical physics. I find it fascinating to speculate, but it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t currently believe the resurrection to be a poem, but if at some point that seems to be the case it would be fine with me and would not alter my core belief and understanding.

"Do you think people should be old enough to drink before allowed into a church(with ID check at the 'gateway')? ? And if not, why not?" I think many churches are teaching wrong-headed religion. Wrong headed religion is damaging to adults and more so to children. An ID check would not be necessary to teach children the truth about a loving God.

"Are you not concerned about corrupting children with your bad example of lending credence to the notion that 'faith' is good and of value? ? And if not, why not?"
Do you have children? I do. I don’t appreciate when people without children speak in abstract terms about what to teach children. It is one of the most delicate questions a human being faces. It is a sacred trust which I take most seriously. Bad example? Probably at times I am because I’m human. When it comes to faith, I am not expecting my children to “take my word” for anything that I don’t know to be true. I have experienced a loving God, and I have learned that this God is experienced personally but often most acutely in the context of a loving community. I attempt to provide this for my children so that they might hopefully experience God and draw their own conclusions accordingly. I am not sure what your definition of “faith” is so its hard to answer your question further. What example are you setting for children? For all the harsh questions you are peppering at me, I am certainly entitled to ask this of you? Would it perhaps be unhealthy for a child to learn that the best way to engage fellow human beings of differing belief systems is to presume, contemptuously insult, and attack attack attack?

"Do you care about anything real, or is reality just sort of 'there'; of no real interest; of no ultimate importance?"
This is a very odd and vague question. I live in the real world, and I trust people who have earned my trust, and I trust my experiences and the experiences of others whom I trust. That and all the things I can touch with my hands and make sense of in my mind are what constitutes what is real I suppose. It is of great interest to me. Otherwise a documentary such as this would be of little interest, no?

"Why do you lend the dignity of your very existence to a paradigm that kills, every day, day in, day out? Why? ? Or don't you care, just as 'C_and_N' does not care?"

I don’t share your view that my personal spiritual experience and world-view are part of some broad “paradigm” capable of killing or saving life. Wrong-headed religion steers people toward catastrophic choices; as does wrong-headed socialism, capitalism, etc. The greed inherent in capitalism, free markets run amok, are certainly killing people every day. The arrogance of an emperial superpower is killing people every day. Extremist religious folks are also killing people. They are all grievous evils.

"Why did you CHOOSE the superstition 'lifestyle', or were you 'recruited'?"
I think I covered this already. I don’t know what you understand to be a superstition lifestyle. You are creating and using terms with abandon about which you have no idea may apply to me.

"What is your view concerning the FACT that since the 1979 revolution FAITH has executed 4000 young gay men in the Islamic Republic of Iran?"
That is awful, horrific. It is also awful that empires have destroyed entire cultures and caused famine and unspeakable horrors in attempts to “westernize” the world beginning about 500 years ago. Again, these are horrible evils motivated by wrong-headed ideas. I do not separate one from the other.

"Why do you like the killer called 'faith'? Why? Answer me! Shame on you!"
I have been doing my best to answer you as calmly and in as detailed a fashion as possible. I am sorry that I was sleeping 9 hours ago when you demanded answer. Shame on me? Why should I be ashamed?

If you want to pursue a real conversation further instead of a one sided shouting match, I am genuinely extending the offer to talk privately. So far no one has taken me up on this because I suspect it lacks the excitement of public vitriol – anyway my email address is my username at gmail. Happy reading.

Quantumshell

Hi Lewis.. Thank You for your comment... Well said...

Guest

@SaintNarcissus and @Oz
After reading your exchange below, i must agree that if you guys were quietly sitting together over a beer, you would agree on things more than you would disagree.
You are two people who aspire to do good even though your path is quite different. I tend to think our personal history clouds our view of others at time.
I must say Oz, the questions that were asked fit many closed minded people that come on TDF, but in this situation it was good to see how SaintNarcissus answered with calm and honesty.
He sounds like a good man to me, a good father, a good influence in his surrounding.
You know (a bit) my position on spirituality. I also think there is a gap between Religion and Science and in that gap there is room for a new view on the immaterial and the material. First and foremost We are energetic and not physical only.
I may be wrong in your view, those are the differences that makes us two.
az

0zyxcba1

"...Sadly, you detest me already without that being a remote possibility. I promise you, whatever we both believe and disagree about my life and yours would be better if we approached one another with civility and respect."

I cannot detest you. I do not even know you. I detest FAITH, as does indeed every decent human being.

Respect must be earned.

Those of faith promote, either directly, or indirectly, murder, torture, mutilation, the public stoning to death of adulteresses, the murders of cartoonist and filmmaker in Denmark and Holland, the killing of so-called 'heretics'(apostates); historical genocides of whole indigenous populations(in the name of Christ). You truck with the enemies of knowledge, the killers of thought. You stand along side those of 'faith' who saw to it that for sixty years in the State of Tennessee, biology was taught from the Bible.

Your are a person of faith, just like C_and_N. Go ahead, make your choice. Stand along side those of Emperor Constantine's 'Holy Roman and Apostolic Catholic Church' and the 'Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' and the 'Church of Scientology' and the 'Church of Nincompoop Creationists(Young Earth/Old Earth)' and 'Shi'a–Sunni Islam' and Hindus and...

Teach your kids Kool-Aid's good for them.

When one sees all about one nothing save privation, fear and death yet still believes in Stalin's 'Rock Candy Mountains of the Future'. That takes faith! Mao murdered eighty million people, yet communists worldwide continued in their support for China's 'Cultural Revolution'. That takes faith! Faith "in dem messianischen Führer, Adolf Hitler" is more poignant than one would wish to recall. North Koreans' religious faith in the divinity of mummified dictator, Kim Il-Sung, whose idiot son, Jong-Il, is currently revered as a living Messiah.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Dali Lama just recently proclaim his having stepped down as 'god'(for geo-political reasons)? (lol)

Go ahead! Stand on your side of the barrier together with those of faith currently destroying the Middle East -- and I do not refer to the 'USA Empire'. America would never dare to undertake such actions as have been plaguing that region of the world had religious faith not destroyed, utterly, what was once the crown of civilization. And ain't it just peachy being on the same side of the barrier as all those guys bending over, directing their rectums at the West five times daily?

Civility?

How it possible for a person of faith to be 'civil'? You stand along side the destroyers of civility, just like C_and_N. You truck with faith healers, charlatan, purveyors of false hopes -- and real novices Why not vacation this year together with your kind at Lourdes? Look what Christians are doing in Uganda.

This is what happens on your side of the barrier when the brain is traded in for faith:

BBC, Tuesday, 17 March 2009

Some 22 million people are infected with HIV in sub-Saharan Africa, according to UN figures for 2007. This amounts to about two-thirds of the global total.

"HIV/Aids is a tragedy that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which can even increase the problem."~ His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI

Sexual abstinence

While in Africa, the pontiff is expected to talk to young people about the Aids epidemic and explain to them why the Catholic Church recommends sexual abstinence as the best way to prevent the spread of the disease.

You truck with hate!

Shame on you!

Don't think for one instant there need be no barrier.

'Faith' and 'Reason' are fundamentally, and comprehensively, incompatible! There are those whose lives are governed by a genuine, wholehearted struggle to reason and to make rational choices, and then there are the rest.

The faith-stricken.

They trade off their responsibilities consequent to will and power of thought and reason for the dull, mindless, cowardly and perverse comfort of abandon to a self-deceptive, manufactured stultifying placebo of absolutes, unchanging from everlasting to everlasting, ever to be worshiped, never to be questioned. Hell yeah! Why not? Stone her to death! Says so, right here, in that thing some ancestral nomadic camel-herding tribe stuck together so long ago we can't even remember -- unless we want to remember!

Remember the time before collapsing into a mush of faith?

Remember what it was like to live, to err, to triumph, to fall, and then to try again? Remember what it was like to always hold in question whether what today is held for right might prove tomorrow to be wrong? Remember what it was like to take responsibility for failure? Remember what it was like to learn! Remember what it was like to shine, proudly, beholden to nothing and to no one when finally standing victorious?

Remember what it was like being you!

Forget sentimental, surrogate claptrap. It leads only to an abyss of lies, self-pity and mortification. Forget repenting for what you are. Take your place, strong and independent, among all other free and independent human beings. Stand up and dare to live and dare to die.

Or get out of the way.

Religions die!
The landscape is knee-deep with millions of dead religions.
Yeah, sure, you and I can talk.
But first, grow up.

Peter Weiss:

Before deciding what is right, and what is wrong,
first we must find out what we are.
I do not know myself,

for no sooner have I discovered something,
than I begin to doubt it,
and have to destroy it again.

What we do is but a shadow of what we want to do,
and the only truths we can point to
are the ever-changing truths of our own existence.

Against Nature’s silence, I use action.
In the vast indifference, I invent a meaning!
I don’t watch unmoved. I intervene

and say that this and this are wrong,
and I work to alter them and improve them.
The important thing,

the important thing in life,

is to pull yourself up by your own hair,
to turn yourself inside out
and see the Whole World, with fresh eyes,

every day!

~ Peter Weiss
(from memory, not exact)

___________________

NO FAITH REQUIRED
___________________

0z

Vlatko

@Oz,

In future please try to write shorter comments. Or if you have to write long ones split them.

SaintNarcissus

Wow. Finally finishing this movie. What an important and elegant piece of work. The process of waking up he describes closely mirrors my own journey in the last couple years. Wonder where he was walking toward the end, looks a lot like my home of Pennsylvania - looks like the woods where I plan to disappear and retreat for 3 days a few weeks from now with minimal, "primitive" supplies to take precisely some of the medicine he's prescribing.

SaintNarcissus

@AZ - that's a pet peeve of mine too - when people bait a discussion and then disappear when you offer a thoughtful response. Oh well. By the way, thank you for your kind words. I honestly and admittedly unrealistically (adverb overload!) strive toward a genuine exchange of ideas on here. Every now and then it happens. The rest of the time...there are a lot of angry monkeys flinging poo indiscriminately whenever religion is so much hinted at. Poo flinging monkeys do not make great conversationalists unfortunately. But I might start awarding a trophy for outstanding flinging cause man are there some skilled flingers on TDF!

SaintNarcissus

Did you guys watch the whole thing? Just curious.

Achems_Razor

@SaintNarcissus:

Well, it takes one to know one, Monkeys that is.

And by what right are you calling atheists "poo flinging monkeys??" don't forget you also have just come swinging down from the tree's a very short while ago. You seem to be mired in the poo!

You are also postulating a religious scenario to suit your fancy, which is a blatant unconvincing pseudo-argument from your very vague authority. I consider your arguments "MOOT"

SaintNarcissus

True, we're all monkeys. I was trying to be humorous. I'm not calling atheists poo flinging monkeys. I am describing the posting behavior of some self-identified atheists on TDF. Very important distinction.

I am not sure what religious scenario I am postulating. I am not suggesting that anyone believe anything in particular. I'm not really postulating any scenarios. I have simply been answering questions, lots of them, about what I believe. If you read what I've said, it is all merely articulating my belief as a response to someone else's incredulity. I am defending no claims about truth or history or anything, except that most historians agree Jesus existed. So I'm not sure what particular pseudo-argument you're referring to. By the way, you're proving my point. :)

0zyxcba1

@SaintNarcissus

I am not a monkey nor did I disappear.

My response was taken for moderation most likely because I neglected to break it up into manageable parts.

I posted you this "moderation quote," and you know it.

0z

Guest

@SaintNarcissus
watch out Poo is a lot more visual than Sh*t which is use in every word sauce.
az

Guest

As i was saying somewhere else in this line of comments; name calling is an easy one when people relate with written texts. I know!
A lot of things that are written would be said differently, specially in a crowd.
Interesting to watch for sure...but i think it is minimising the seriousness of the intended message.
az

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

The Lesser Ape Family(sometimes called the Small Ape or Old World Ape) is comprised of sixteen known extant species living
in parts of China and in Southeast Asia, collectively known as Gibbons. We are not a member of this family. We are members of the African Great Ape Family which includes orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees and, of course, us! ? Merry Christ's Mass!

Those just starting out, be warned!

You will invariably run across statements like, We are not descended from monkeys, but neither are we apes. Very confusing! Because we are apes! African Great Apes!

When evolutionary biologists speak generically of the Ape they refer to the Lesser/Small/Old World Ape, not to our family. We are African Great Apes. This could be so simple. Instead, it is damned sloppy. An impertinence! Next time Dawkins comes over to do the cleaning, he can expect a thorough dressing down, from me!

Monkeys are Simian Primates.

Look Narcissus, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over. Allowing you the courtesy of presuming you to be an African Great Ape, your being overwhelmed by the irresistible urge to through monkey poo is of vanishingly small likelihood.

0z

Enigma

I'm to humble to answer that.

Brad

Hate to break it to ya GoughLewis, but there was no Climate Gate Scandal. Stolen emails taken completely out of context without scientific understanding of what was written constitues a scandal only in the same way balloon boy was a scnadal.

John-Sebastian Barrera

wow, didn't get passed the first 3 minutes. too dramatic and apocalyptic for my taste ''the first generation of humans who might not make it to old age''?? yeah... ok. LOL

oompaul

The people who made this hateful video should be dragged into a white court of law (not that NWO travesty of justice at the Hague), charged with inciting genocide of people of European heritage, found guilty and strung up from the nearest lamp posts.

0zyxcba1

@oompaul, do you drink?

0z

0zyxcba1

Hypothetically, were we humans to just 'disappear', then would the biosphere
settle into equilibrium and slowly begin to heal, or is it just, plain too late?

0z

His Forever

If we didnt' nuke the planet, it would heal. You evolutionists think we came from pond scum! Surely a few million years would take care of all worries if we disappeared, eah?

But, as a Christian (believing that once a spiecies is gone, it's gone forever), it's too late--we need a total renovation, which is what the Bible says will happen eventually, by fire.

Achems_Razor

Charles, can't believe you are still doing your pond scum thingy.

Epicurus explained all that to you before, one track religee mind Eh?

Guest

By fire?
az

GoughLewis

Come on Brad, you remember.... the fraud, and criminal investigations into IPCC climate data manipulations supplied to the United Nations for several years originating in the now scientifically and criminally disgraced CRU - Climate Research Unit. You know.... Climate Gate.

Look it up.

His Forever

Az: Yes, fire. Revelation chapter 21 I think. Fire is a purifying process. Nothing to fear--I'm looking forward to a revitalized earth. I hope He recreates dinos. I want to see and visit everywhere on Earth and beyond someday that I can't see and visit now.

Mr. Razor: I guess I missed Epic's dismissal of "pond scum" evolution. Or, I might have read it and didn't see the same significant bundle of unrefutable truth that you must have read.

P.S. I prefer the term "steadfast" as opposed to "one track" in reference to things of faith. Thanks!

SaintNarcissus

@Ozy,

I still can't figure out how to reply to one of your replies to make the comment flow more accurate. Oh well. In any case, this is intended to be the first of several comments that are in response to your most recent comment to me. Oh, and by the way, when I commented about someone disappearing, I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to a similar discussion on a different doc on TDF. If I want to say something to or about you, I'll try to direct it accordingly. Here goes...

#1
“Respect must be earned.” I understand that perspective, however I attempt to approach interactions in the reverse. I afford people respect since we are just a couple of human beings trying to get along. I find beginning with that precedent works well for me.

“Those of faith promote, either directly, or indirectly, murder, torture, mutilation, the public stoning to death of adulteresses, the murders of cartoonist and filmmaker in Denmark and Holland, the killing of so-called 'heretics'(apostates); historical genocides of whole indigenous populations(in the name of Christ). You truck with the enemies of knowledge, the killers of thought. You stand along side those of 'faith' who saw to it that for sixty years in the State of Tennessee, biology was taught from the Bible.” Here we have another blanket accusation. It is simply not logically tenable to lump several billion people together and to accuse me, simply because I identify with Jesus, of some kind of implicit support of atrocity. I don’t truck with those people. I don’t stand alongside them. I am an individual as are the several billion religious people on planet earth. Your argument becomes tremendously easy to win, by your own standards, when you simply lump billions of people together. Anyway, I have to say this every time an African Great Ape on TDF slings this well worn, poorly thought out argument at me. So I’ll leave it there.

Do you notice how many statements you make which declare what I or who I am? You claim not to detest me, because you don’t know me. Yet you are comfortable making blanket assumptions and guilty-by-association accusations.

SaintNarcissus

“When one sees all about one nothing save privation, fear and death yet still believes in Stalin's 'Rock Candy Mountains of the Future'. That takes faith! Mao murdered eighty million people, yet communists worldwide continued in their support for China's 'Cultural Revolution'. That takes faith! Faith "in dem messianischen Führer, Adolf Hitler" is more poignant than one would wish to recall. North Koreans' religious faith in the divinity of mummified dictator, Kim Il-Sung, whose idiot son, Jong-Il, is currently revered as a living Messiah.” Ah, I see. How very simple. So “faith” as an abstract concept is to blame for millions of deaths as opposed to human beings making power-mad choices and so on. If “faith” is that broad, then I see plenty of atheists and anti-religionists operating on a great deal of it every day. Okay. There’s no point arguing this one further.

“Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Dali Lama just recently proclaim his having stepped down as 'god'(for geo-political reasons)?” I don’t know much about the Dalai Lama, but I’m pretty sure he was never considered God. I’m also pretty sure he has done a lot to improve the world we live in, whatever you make of his beliefs.

“Go ahead! Stand on your side of the barrier together with those of faith currently destroying the Middle East” The only barrier between you and I is the one you are building. I have no inherent issue with you and your beliefs. I would happily be your neighbor, happily put you up in my home, happily sit and eat with you. I am not on a “side.” I am just one human being who sees the world according to how I see it.

SaintNarcissus

#3
“Civility?” Yes, civility. I am not responsible for the misdeeds of others. I would still make the case that we would be better off and better served and perhaps learn something that might improve our quality of life if we had a civil discourse, as opposed to your attacks based on your anger at various groups of people all around the world.
“Conservative Christians + any living thing = blood” I don’t consider myself a conservative by any stretch and I do think of their theology as metaphorically violent, but could you clarify this claim as far as the actual killing of people?

“Self-Proclaimed Gay Haters(short list)” Again, how on earth am I identified with these people simply because we both ascribe to a belief system with a shared progenitor 2,000 years ago? There were also people that planted the tree for your overall school of thought and its branches have led to horrible things too: Darwinism applied to human beings by Eugencisists for example, or even worse applied by Hitler. I would never think to associate you, whom I’ve never met, with those atrocities.

SaintNarcissus

#4

Aids in Africa and the Pope: Same argument Again. I’m not the pope. I don’t agree with the pope. I don’t like the idea of their being a pope. It’s A$$ backwards. You are not having a discussion with ME, you are flinging anger and, yes, hate which you very correctly hold toward injustice. But this concept that I’m complicit in it, and somehow part of those things because I attempt to live according to the sermon on the mount is silliness. It is not sound reasoning. Can I get an amen from somebody here? :)

“You truck with hate! Shame on you!” I don’t truck. I strive to allow every remaining scrap of hate to be eliminated from my spirit. Ozy, you are displaying what looks and feels like hate to me.

“Don't think for one instant there need be no barrier.'Faith' and 'Reason' are fundamentally, and comprehensively, incompatible! There are those whose lives are governed by a genuine, wholehearted struggle to reason and to make rational choices, and then there are the rest.” Wow, that’s arrogant. So there’s you and people who agree with you and the rest of the world. Not much wiggle room there! Clearly I disagree. Again, if you’re up for some good reading – read 8th Century Irish Christian philosopher, Eriugena. He makes a pretty solid argument that faith and reason are not only compatible but that it is part of being good stewards of the rational minds we are blessed with, to use that faculty to moderate our faith. Truly, when reason goes out the window and emotional spirituality bleeds beyond the borders of our own hearts, and motivates someone toward hateful thought or action, then something is going awry. However, this happens all the time with and without faith. Loss of reason is loss reason.

SaintNarcissus

#5

“dull, mindless, cowardly and perverse comfort of abandon to a self-deceptive, manufactured stultifying placebo of absolutes, unchanging from everlasting to everlasting, ever to be worshiped, never to be questioned.” Again you seem to be describing me while never having met me. In fact, I think I’ve typed enough in these posts to show you that perhaps this description is not quite apt. It also sounds pretty hateful, coming from someone so concerned with the hatefulness of others. Incidentally, I steer clear of absolutes. I agree with great spiritual thinkers like Annie Lammott and Joan Chittister who thing that relentless questioning in our spiritual lives lead to maturity and are necessary. The only absolute I will stand behind is love, cheesy as that may sound. All the rest, I do not take on blind faith. I examine and re-examine all the time. An atheist once asked me if I could concede that perhaps I’m wrong about God and all of it. My answer is sure, I could be wrong. Until then, I follow the lights I have been given to the best of my availability.

“Remember what it was like to live, to err, to triumph, to fall, and then to try again? Remember what it was like to always hold in question whether what today is held for right might prove tomorrow to be wrong? Remember what it was like to take responsibility for failure? Remember what it was like to learn! Remember what it was like to shine, proudly, beholden to nothing and to no one when finally standing victorious? Remember what it was like being you!” Very inspiriational. Most of the above describes accurately how I lived my life yesterday and today, and hopefully tomorrow. I’m not interested in being victorious though. I’m interested in finding lasting peace, in living a good life, in facing hard truths like the ones in this doc, and doing my part to be part of the solution. I’m not trying to win. That may be why this conversation might leave you frustrated. I’m not bringing weapons, and I’m not trying to fight, and I’m not behind a barrier. I don’t want to “win” or “beat” anyone. I would however, love to see these conversations turn into a fruitful exchange of ideas motivated by a desire to improve our understanding.

SaintNarcissus

#6

“Religions die! The landscape is knee-deep with millions of dead religions.” I don’t want to point out the obvious, but I see a repeated irony here. Your rhetoric is about as extremist and violently tinged as any of the various “fundies” you hate so profoundly.

“You and I can talk, but first grow up.” By grow up, do you mean agree with you before we talk? Sad, man. That’s sad. You are closing yourself off to a lot of human interaction that could be mutually beneficial by so disrespectfully casting out anything that doesn’t fit your parameters. You’re allegiance to your own code of hatred is downright religious.

I’m not sure of the purpose of the poem. It has some interesting insights. Well Ozy, I think I’m going to conclude my end of this discussion. I am saddened by your unwillingness to engage in something more than a polemic. You have asked me many questions but answered none of mine. That gets boring. I would genuinely like to understand your perspective better, but neither of us will gain much understanding as a result of the ranting going on here. Again, if you’d like to chat more, in hopefully a less hostile and more productive manner, step down from the microphone and shoot me an email.

Achems_Razor

Sorry, not steadfast, but one track mind!

You hope "he" "recreates dino's"?? You talk like a baby Charles,
I told you before, only one god, and that is "EHWA"

PavolvsBitch

Do I watch this? For a start the false assumption that we are living with 'global warming' instead of living in an era of weather warfar, biowarfare and eco-terrorism. Second, that old chestnut of a mantra born of the eugenocidal militant elites 'explosing population' instead of mass displacement of persons through economic warfare in addition to above. All displacements from rural and coastal regions into cities (open prisons) giving the impression of overpopulation and more receptive to euthanasia, suicide and deadly nuerosis (observe rats in crowded mazes).

Of course not and look above, there's an 'inconvenient truth' to follow which is a hugely profitable lie.

Guest

Now at one place you say that when a species is gone it is gone forever then at another place you say you hope to see recreated dinosaurs. Which is it ? Does your god owe you a personal favor or is it you aren't as "steadfast" as you claim to be.

tom

Good god this man has hit the nail right on the head. Bravo!

AlfBeta

*Waldo, I appreciate your thorough argument, and although I'm itching to
respond to it, am unable, possibly for a week or more, but I do say my
suggestion of connection volc/soil depletion does not demand "knowledge" by
a mountain etc. which I'll defend - also I believe you put coupla my words
in quotes -no, you left "its" (for my "a") out of the quotes, a significant
word replacement, and I wouldn't find it amiss if ,by time I get chance to
read again and reply*,you have edited this, and any other thing you feel
removes weaknesses in your argument, which are easy in the forasphere. no
offence intended, but I wont see it as sneaky if you edit it for
strength,but only in interests of speedier better commnctn. And I myself
obviously need to write at greater length and care to bypass the oongoing
impression that i'm talking about some 'magical' etc. processes. till
then...6On 11 July 2011 16:53, Disqus

Guest

CnN, i thought you got that i never read the bible, Revelation chapter 21 doesn't ring a bell at all. Frankly i wouldn't know where to start in the bible to find it...not that i couldn't if i tried but by heart i don't know the lay out of the bible. Sorry if that surprises you!
Eventually by Fire? What kind of Fire? Where? When? Why?
az

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus (#6)

"By grow up, do you mean agree with you before we talk?"

No.

"You’re allegiance to your own code of hatred..."

I have no codes.

"...is downright religious."

Prior to using "religious" in pronouncements involving me, provide me with a rational, well thought out definition of 'religion'.

It seems you hold faith and religion to be one and the same.

Faith can exist without religion; the converse is not the case. Thus has the focus been on 'faith'. I hate religion, but the focus has been on faith.

"...not sure of the purpose of the poem."

The poem was intended as a summary.

"You have asked me many questions but answered none of mine."

The postings are out of synch.

I am finishing one before I can get to the next and by then you've posted even more. Then, understandably, you take a posting of mine as in response to another of yours, when it isn't.

Give me time to catch up. I love answering questions.

I know of no way to "shoot [you] an email."

0z

SaintNarcissus

@ozy,

regarding the out-of-synchness I'm frustrated by that so if you know of how to post in a different way I'm all for it. I can't seem to reply to any of the things you are saying as they are already replies. So I have been replying to this original comment where our conversation began. However, you have an interesting way of vacillating between incendiary, emotional, and frankly unhelpful vitriol, which I would still insist is violent in its spirit - eg Religion Die! Answer me! Shame on you!. You continue to say you cannot hate someone you do not know but I think most people would not take issue with my characterizing some of your salvos against me as hateful.

I'm not going to wade in deep line by line because the more I do that, what I get back from you are more random scattershot attacks, which do not make for a discussion but rather a frenzied polemic. Again you are attacking an idea or set of ideas which you link to me, as an individual, simply because of this rigid concept of faith that you insist cannot be thought of in any way other the one you define. So as long as you are attacking something you link by proxy to me, rather than saliently and thoughtfully responding to things I actually say or espouse, it's not worth it to me to engage at such a detailed level.

As far as shooting me an email, I made an appeal to you in one of the posts I addressed to you - giving my email address. Obviously if you didn't see that, than it's clear why our conversation is not exactly fruitful. You are attacking and asking questions. I am taking time to answer them carefully and thoughtfully, and you are apparently not dignifying the answers with a thorough read. I would note that you began this conversation. I replied to CNN, and you swooped in with dropping some atheistic napalm. So if you don't want to see the conversation through at an intellectual level, rather than an indiscriminate hostile fire level, I'm fine with concluding. But for now, I am blessed with a patient and persistent nature. So if you'd like to actually engage one another's ideas I'm all for it.

SaintNarcissus

"Their faith exercises disproportionate influence within the body politic at all levels, domestic and foreign; social and legal; economic and ethical; civic and judicial." you see we can agree on something!

"Faith is not, nor ever can be, amenable to reasoned discourse. Any attempt must fail. Finding common ground upon which to disagree and work from would demand of faith it cease being faith, or of reason that it cease being reason, or both." I don't share your narrow definition of faith. The faith you despise and use as the lynchpin for you arguments is what I would call "blind faith." You seem unwilling to use any other terminology, but as I've said before, just because it helps you order your worldview - who are fools and sheep, and who are not - does not mean it is an accurate description of real people in the real world. It is only accurate of some people in the real world. I live according to deep Christian spirituality, a word you may find equally nauseating, but nonetheless quite different from "faith." You make such incredibly absolutist statements. I am not being tongue-in-cheek when I say you have more in common with fundies than you'd like to admit. You both order your world and your arguments in terms of rhetorical absolutes, devoid of the humility of common human experience which suggests, "well I think this is true, and I will continue to think it is so, unless and until I am shown otherwise." That is how scientists approach theories, no? They have a theory and a belief based on available evidence, and they stick with it with an implicit understanding that it may change. that is basic humility. You don't operate that way. Phrases like "faith is not, nor ever can be, amenable to reasoned discourse. Any attempt must fail." That's pretty dang absolute and dogmatic if you ask me. I have no interest in pummeling you with factoids and counterpoints, but I would like to suggest that perhaps you'll learn more and understand the world more accurately if you don't presume to be right about everything, and if you approach human interaction with an attitude of thoughtful inquiry rather than Quixotic fervor.

"You once said in passing that many Christians believe you are headed straight for hell. But you are wrong. They do not believe you are headed straight for hell. They know you are headed straight for hell. And they are right! Through faith, and only through faith, does one come with absolute certainty, to absolute truth. Just ask them. They will not give you their opinion. They have no opinions. They will give you the truth, the absolute truth about which there can be absolutely no doubt:"

You continue to argue with some phantom fundamentalist with me as the proxy, rather than actually addressing what I profess to believe. Of course I am aware of all the above. That absolutism describes your manner of reasoning more than it does mine. Do you not see your own absolute certainty? You seem unwilling to accept that there are those of us who profess to Christianity to not only disown certainty, but we seek the truth and embrace uncertainty! Two great minds I mentioned earlier are Joan Chittister (book: Called to Question) and Annie Lamott. who says "the opposite of faith is not doubt but certainty. Certainty is missing the point entirely." Another is George MacDonald a writer and thinker about 150 years ago. For you to gloat that George, Joan, Annie, and I are going to hell by someone else's arbitrary theological standards is foolishness and merely a distraction from what could be a fruitful discussion. It is a refusal to address me, the person with whom you are attempting a conversation.

SaintNarcissus

FYI: after watching this I checked out Daniel Quinn's Beyond Civilization from the library. It's quite good. More useful than this documentary in many ways I think. Or perhaps a good artful slap in the face which this doc provides is an appropriate prologue to the book, which takes the beyond bad situation we find ourselves almost for granted as the precedent for his ideas. Anyway, for anyone interested in these ideas, it's a good read and it is positive and empowering.

Guest

I really liked The Story Of B when it came out. I bought it for many people. He layed his thoughts in this novel in a very interesting way.
az

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

I've read your posting(just below). You really have to give me some time to catch up. I am working on (#5) -- all night.

Did you go to the link I left?

0z

SaintNarcissus

@ozy
Yes I watched the video. I've said already that this is horrific. Heinous barbarism as a result of any ideology is horrific. Unfortunately, it has more to do with what human beings have always done to one another, religion or no religion. Humans have always been misguided to fear and hate what they perceive as "other" from themselves. I understand you are satisfied with the shallow reductionism that somehow renders Pol Pot, Mao, et al in the column of atrocities done because of faith. That is not satisfactory from a logical standpoint for me. What it suggests to me is that, as Daniel Quinn suggests in his book and in this film I think, is that civilization must have hierarchy to continue being a civilization. When one is more powerful than another, ultimately power is corrupted along religious, ideological, racial, sexual, or other lines. In this corruption of power combined with wrong-headed ideology, atrocities are perpetrated.

Once again, while I empathize with the strong emotions elicited by a video like that, I do not understand what it has to do with the conversation which you and I are having. You seem to want to come back again and again to a global understanding of "faith" as a monolithic boogeyman. That kind of argument just doesn't work. It's way way way too simplistic. If you're sharing the link with me to communicate, "isn't that awful?" then I can easily respond, yes, it's terrible. If you're sharing the link to somehow suggest that because I pursue a spirituality that is pacifistic and values self-sacrifice and inner peace...that somehow this means I am peripherally guilty by association (of which there is none), then I have to reject that as wildly inaccurate.

If it would be less confusing to respond to, I'd be happy to accumulate all the posts I have replied to you with, and combine them in one email in the order they are intended to be read. Let me know if this would be helpful.

0zyxcba1

@ SaintNarcissus

"I don't share your narrow definition of faith. The faith you despise and use as the lynchpin for you arguments is what I would call 'blind faith'."

I just have to say this:

What you term "blind faith," I call faith.

The universally accepted definition of faith is belief without evidence. So what is then 'blind faith'? Belief with even less evidence than no evidence. Unless one speaks metaphorically,
or poetically, faith is faith is faith. There is only one kind of faith: belief absent evidence. This "narrow definition of faith"
is not my "narrow definition."

If you would like this word, 'faith', to be more expansive and more inclusive, then I do think it is incumbent upon you to tell me just what it is you would like 'faith' to mean. I am open to redefinition, even if purely for the sake of this discussion. But you really do need to tell me what this new definition is to be, instead of simply criticizing me for using the word as it is defined.

Forgive me for putting words in your mouth, but I believe when you distinguish between 'blind faith' and the 'other kind(s)' of faith, you are in reality speaking of the differences between
faith and trust.

Am I even close?

0z

SaintNarcissus

@Ozy

this is good for us to distinguish. Incidentally your definition of faith is one of the universally accepted definitions, but in my quick search it is listed first about half the time. Here is a definition I found, also listed as the primary definition of the word about half the time, which more accurately describes what I mean when I refer to faith: "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing." There is nothing in that definition that requires this confidence to blind and unfounded or without evidence.

So in one sense yes, if you choose to arbitrarily assert that only one definition of faith may apply (yours that is) then given this inflexibility, what I mean by faith more closely resembles trust.

So, it may save us some time if I concede to you that "blind faith" (the only kind there is in your redacted dictionary) is indeed responsible for a great many ills. However, it would be helpful if you could concede that not every person engaged in spiritual practices of absolutely any variety is somehow complicit in a global plot to remain blind, high on the opiate of the masses, and unable to employ intellect and rational thought. I don't want to distract you though from your response to the various questions I have asked.

Once again, if you'd rather have a conversation for our mutual benefit and less for a show - my email address again is my disqus user name at gmail.

0zyxcba1

@SaintNarcissus:"...if you choose to arbitrarily assert that only one definition of faith may apply (yours that is) then given this inflexibility,..."

0zyxcba1:
"I am open to redefinition, even if purely for the sake of this discussion."

0z

P.S.: Dear Saint,
Just now attempted to "shoot" you!(an email/gmail).
Please respond right away if you get it, otherwise,
I'll assume I goofed and will try a second time.
Thnx, 0z.

0zyxcba1

@ C_and_N

Actually, CnN, I do not think we came from pond scum,
but I do think you may have.

0z

Brad

Yes, I remember the allegations that went nowhere, the smear campaign against Rajendra Pachauri (a Nobel laureate), the KPMG audit review that found nothing untoward, the apology by the newspaper The Daily Telegraph, the Inspector General's review of NOAA that found nothing, Penn State's clearing of Michael Mann, The University of East Anglia's investigation that found zero evidence of fraud, the UK Parliament report that found no evidence to suspect emails presented any manipulations, the clearing of Phil Jones by the House of Commons Science and Technology Select Committee, the statements by AAAS, the US Geophysical Union, American Meteorological Society and the 1700 signatures from 100 scientific institutions, including the Royal Society all supporting the scientific evidence for global warming gathered by all the IPCC scientists involved in the non-existent "climate gate".

edit: not sure how to place my reply under your last post.

Bob King

Good God, after reading the comments, I have to agree with Bennett on there being "no happy ending at the end of this story"....Christanity? "No global warming"? "All a hoax"? arguments so two dimensional as to make me laugh if not for the crying. Very good film, while I do have some reservations on some of it, I don't think this comment link is a good place to post them. peace

George Carlin figured all that out in a much more realistic manner: Planet earth doesn't need humankind to survive.
It did for billions of years, switched poles top to bottom a few times, went through many glacial eras...

Obviously, human beings are only one specie among so many.
Have fun while it last!

Outsidethebox28

Just because they are making money off of it, which they most certainly are, does not mean that it does not exist. The Capitalist Monetary system finds a way to make money off anything and everything that exists, like war, disease, poverty, etc. I'm not giving my full support for the ideas expressed in this video because I need to do a lot of my own thinking and researching on all of this before I come to a conclusion (which all of us should be doing at this point, too many of us make up our minds about something before we gather our own facts). We live in a very confusing time because there are many people saying one thing and a whole bunch of other people saying another about ALL issues right now, not just climate change. It sucks because the monetary system has allowed an elite bunch to get to the top and now those individuals are controlling a lot of the information we receive in order to maintain the status quo in order to maintain their wealthy, fat, greedy lifestyles. There are many lies floating around out here which is a bad sign in and of itself - this should not be the case. Currently, it is these lies that we should all be sifting through first before we agree or disagree with these concepts.

who_me_yeah_you

I read through the commentary first. Seemed to have been thought provoking. I pressed play then got to 00:14..... "This documentary is long and dense. Don't try to understand and integrate it all the first time through. Just let it wash over you. And let yourself feel it."

I had to stop there. That very much sounds like the persuasion techniques of the more Hippyish priests at my school (the fundamentalists used to beat the attempt to question life out of us). If we didnt get it we had to keep letting it wash over us, letting ourselves feel the spirit. Once we felt the spirit, Only then could we hope to begin to understand the complexities of our faith.

perhaps I am wrong, but I shan't be watching this today, maybe another time eh?

foodnotlawnsandgolf

even if it not true shouldnt we act as if it was?

don't judge someone until they've ate good. don't even judge then, you don't know if they are in pain, tired or have lost a family member etc

you cannot be angry, only feel it
if you weren't a thing you'd still be there

dont get mad at old people
appreciate while you can
everything is good
dont fear the forest. if you think it is likely ( anything could happen ) you will be in a forest one day; do what makes sense

dont believe anything

who_me_yeah_you

Right, now I watched it I didn't feel there was anything I shouldn't try understand, It was all pretty clear the first time. I found it very interesting, a man making his point albeit in a sometimes long winded artistic convolution. Each to his own though. I particularly liked the distance from An Inconvenient Truth, as politically processed solutions are often dragged out over years if not decades then years later loopholes are found and we are all back to square one. There's a big ass kicking coming our way and when the proverbial hits the fan it'll be no use ducking.

Steve Wirtes

i'd recommend watching it, if you dont think it's true thats ok too

NotAsSmartAsWeThink

Fact is most people in modern society are disconnected fom the natural world. How many even give a thought to where that chunk of meat they just threw on the grill comes from or what it cost to produce it, or for that matter any other product they may purchase. Could you survive in the wilderness on your own? If you cannot answer yes then indeed you have been conditioned from birth to live an unnatural existence that is dependent upon the whims and wishes of others in your species. If the factory farms suddenly decided to quit producing beef and pig and chicken products and the agribusinesses suddenly decided to quit growing lettuce, potatoes and tomatoes where will you get your favorite burger with bacon, lettuce and tomatoes and fries? You would be screwed. Say whatever you like about this doc but truth is majority of people are so disconnected from the natural world that dumped in the natural world alone and on their own they would soon become someone elses idea of a happy meal. We as human being just aren't getting the message that we are part of not master of all that is our little spaceship earth. We are arrogant in our supposed superiority. Surprise a mother bear and her cubs while walking on a trail in the wilderness. She attacks you to protect her young but what do other humans do after you are dead? They hunt her down and kill her because she dared to hurt a human who didn't know better than to make enough noise so as not to surprise her. We are so very out of touch with the real world. No wonder we are so messed up in our artificially created world.

avd420

Why are you on a computer telling us how stupid we are rather than living in the wild with your friends, the insects and animals? You are the worst kind of human you self-depricating unappreciative piece of slime. Don't try to tear us down with you.

NotAsSmartAsWeThink

I do not consider myself any better than any other human. I am just as guilty of what I posted as anyone else. However I am doing my very best to lower my own carbon footprint. I no longer use air conditioning. I launder all my clothes in cold water and hang them to dry. I have no microwave oven and use only a small toaster oven. I live in the country and grow my own vegetables which I share when I have a good harvest with the homeless orgs in my area. I have an organic garden. I have a flower garden that attracts and shelters and feeds birds, butterflies and some critters too such as rabbits, groundhogs, red squirrels, chipmunks. I have a few dead trees I have left standing for Woodpeckers. I have a shelter dog that I am guardian of ( not owner as I do not own other beings) rather than purchased a pure breed from a pet shop that most likely came from a filthy puppy mill. I donate to causes that help animals and yeah even us 'horrible' humans causes. I recycle and reuse whenever possible. I reuse gray water from my laundry and dishwashing in my garden. I limit my consumption of gasoline to $20 every other month. And I post comments like I just did in an effort to make people think about their own carbon foot print. So in your eyes I may be "a self deprecating piece of slime" but I don't care that you judged me so quickly and so harshly. I am only one but I am doing the best I can to make this world a better place . How about you? Are you and everyone else that didn't like my intial post doing the best you can? We are all in this together and perhaps no one person can change everyhting that is not right with our world but each one person can do the very best they can. One + one + another doing the best that they each individually can I firmly believe will make our world a better place for all that inhabit it. Now go eat your burger and fries and when you take that first bite, think about the factory farmed animal that was slaughtered so you could enjoy your unhealthy meal and what was added as filler to your 'beef' pattie. Bet you do not even know where your beef comes from or how it was actually raised.

bluetortilla

I agree with you who? me? yeah, you, but I think it's worth watching. I felt the opening too was arrogant and amateurish. But watching this, if food were thought, this is as smorgasbord. I'm not a science guy so I don't understand the processes but they are intriguing. As for the stats, well, we all know about the stats. And the 5 alarm chili is a bit too depressing for me.
Having said that, I do think he (sadly) does present a plausible scenario. I too feel sad and worried for my kids. The world's not getting any better.

avd420

First of all, the slime comment was a little snide and I apologize.

It's a product of my frustration which was directed towards you when it's really meant for the whole culture of guilt that's being bombarded on us on a daily basis.

But since you asked I'll let you know, but first I don't do this "to make the world a better place" I do it because I'm a minimalist and try to live conservatively, growing up poor kind of turns one against waste. Also, if what you say is true then I am impressed with your lifestyle choices. Most of them anyway.

I don't now, nor have ever owned a vehicle, I walk everywhere within walking distance, use public transportation and own a bicycle. I find little things make the biggest difference, I unplug all appliances that are not in use, shut off the water while washing my hands, brushing my teeth and in the shower, I turn it on to get wet, off while washing then back on to rinse. I also use cold water for the wash, I reuse towels a few times before I wash them, I shower 2-3 times a week unless I'm working because I work at oil refineries and that gets really dirty and there are pollutants everywhere. I just started a garden, and compost while at home which isn't much because I have to travel for work. Personally I got one of the companies I worked for to allow reusable containers to pack lunches rather than Styrofoam which for some reason is all they would allow, keep in mind they serve thousands of men a day, these are work camps in Fort McMurray, I pointed out to them how this directly contradicted their "green" policy. I take a backpack to the grocery store and have been doing this before it become trendy. I've pointed out many flaws to my local member of parliament regarding "going green" government policies, I wasn't able to get anything done but now many of these flaws are becoming apparent to the rest of the world.

I am a skilled tradesman in the oil industry and can tell you the people working for "big oil" directly, are doing much more to help the environment than any self-righteous do-gooder who's main contribution isn't investing millions into research for extracting oil in a manner which is cleaner and replacing all this dilapidated land with mineral rich clean soil, like the scientists working for them are. But rather telling everyone how evil these companies are and how stopping them would solve the world’s problems. Yet they are a walking contradiction living in concrete jungles which used to be untouched forest. Yet they see nothing wrong with this? Handing out fliers, making YouTube videos and commenting on forums doesn't help. It just confuses the issue. If they lived the way you or I live, I wouldn't have a job, it's that simple, the demand wouldn’t justify the exspansion. I'm right in the middle of "Big Oil" and know what's going on far better than anyone with a "Greenpeace" vest on standing on the corner asking if you have 5 minutes. I give them 10 minutes, and not once have I spoke to one who was actually aware that "Greenpeace" isn't considered a charity in Canada because it provides no service to the community. And that's just the tip of the iceberg regarding what they arn't aware of when it comes to the enviormental issues. They're nothing more than tools of misinformation almost as bad as your daily news papers and news makers.

Every holiday I donate my double time pay day to charity. For example; Wap Amps on Rememberance Day. A fitting charity for each holiday. I also donate to a Drug and Alcohol rehab program bi-annually, I also volunteer time for them. In addition I volunteer for a Youth Justice Program to help my local community and participate in community clean-ups whenever I'm available for it. And on top of that I babysit many of my friends children for free and use the oppurtunity to teach them things since I don't have kids of my own.

And yes, I do eat my burger and fries and I do enjoy it and I don't think of the dead animal while doing it. Maybe you could try thinking of the millions of dead insects that went into getting that salad. I just had to take that little jab :P

BTW, organic is quickly becoming a marketing term used to sell the same crap at a higher cost. Organic food is only worth it for a few selective fruits, veggies and meat.

Again, I would like to apologize for my tone towards your first comment, it's nothing personal. But, you're wrong with your assumptions, especially when it comes to how I eat, I'm a diabetic so I'm fully aware of the nutritional value of everything that goes into my body

Oh yeah! Also I gave almost every book I owned to libraries in the many different cities I've lodged in and whenever I finish a used book I promptly give that away too. I never buy books from the big chain retailers anymore lol, there's just too many good books used books out there to pay $20-$50 for a new one.

And did I mention what a big fan of candles I am? :P

So in closing I would just like to say I take treating my surroundings (enviorment, community and body) very seriously. I think showing them respect is showing yourself respect.

NotAsSmartAsWeThink

Apology accepted. And yes the poor bugs!
Yes, I always speak the truth and am willing to admit to my mistakes too.

Thanks for the reply. Your lifestyle is to be admired.

As for big oil, I won't go there. We need it because our government (USA) made us dependent on it.
It all started with President Eisennhower's and the building of the interstate highway system in the 1950's which led to the development of the 'burbs.

Don't know what the future holds but it would be wise for leaders to start encouraging the development of small eco friendly 'walking' communites. All our large cities have areas in need of redevelopment. Wasted spaces just waiting for some bright minds to develope them.

Nate Mcclennen

NotAsSmartAsWeThink's statement was seriously thoughtful, and is similar to what i think. Its not easy to be self sufficient, intelligent, or compassionate towards the earth. I wish you all unconditional love on your search towards wisdom.

bluetortilla

Outstanding documentary. I was a bit put off at the first part because of all the science stats, but it got better and better as solid concepts were introduced, and I found it downright moving at the end. I don't believe that he's offering any one certain nightmare scenario, and there are a wide range of opinions, but the one thing that I think we can agree on is that we are NOT heading in a good direction and a shift, ranging from painful to catastrophic, does seem imminent. I believe it is. I also believe that not only is there hope, but we as individuals in modern civ are a 100 times bigger than we know ourselves to be, that sadly we treat domestic animals in the same way we treat ourselves. That basically we are cannibalizing each other. So I for one welcome the crash- whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Viva the new era, assuming some of us are around to see it. We have no idea how unlucky we are in the current state.

M A

I'm almost 15 minutes in and I'm getting pretty sick of him just enumerating problems. :/ It's making me laugh at the sheer ridiculous negativity of it all. I get it, this era sucks.

M A

Having seen it now, it's one of the most frustrating documentary experiences I've had, even though it reflects a lot of my views... This man speaks like a cult leader almost... this film is very manipulative. Yes open discussion about these issues must be had, but I believe he is also a victim of the hallucinations he speaks of.
There are many problems with society, doesn't mean we want to or should fully discard it. The world isn't going to end tomorow. Capitalism is absolutely mad in many ways, but I believe it honestly reflects a lot of human values he claims are false. Yes we are egocentric. Yes we feel entitled. Yes we are selfish, opportunistic, sometimes cruel if we don't see the victims, and we are ALL guilty of this. But this attitude has allowed us to become intelligent, and the best among us have used it to further the quest for knowledge. By all means, I don't think we should continue trampling on the poor and our environment. That takes vision from the consumers, and mostly our leaders, it is the next step. It's not impossible, there have simply been a lot of poor choices and it's time to stop ignoring the scientific community in favor of business growth.

What I am taking from this documentary is that we can't confuse the need to make the world a better place (for all living creatures, indeed) with a spiritual quest, that blurs the line even further and makes naive fools out of all of us; it's another madness.

I'm very curious to see what kind of 'boat' he is building these days.

M A

:/ Personally I am very proud of what mankind has a achieved. Go read a good piece of litterature and tell me that mankind is wrong. Take a walk in an art or history museum and tell me that it wasn't worth it. Sit and listen to symphony and tell me it doesn't appeal to the best of you.

If you are unable to appreciate any of those things, perhaps you are right to be living in the wild.

Humans have evolved specifically to favor intellect rather than objective survival in a wild environment. What point are you trying to make, pitting a man against all of wilderness? It means nothing, it's only pseudosymbolic hogwash meant to pull at heartstrings and validate your desire to perhaps become Pocahontas.

That being said, it is very dumb of men to destroy more than they need and I find capitalism very short sighted indeed... but please don't dismiss what we have accomplished. There is a difference between a man and an ape.

NotAsSmartAsWeThink

Oh I am in no way dismissing the good side of humanity M A Humankind has many wonderful accomplishemnts in its pocket. And I am very much able to appreciate such things. But I often think about it like this...

What good become of all the good humankind has created if the earth itself is not treated in a sustainable manner.

I just want people to be more aware of the personal choices they make in their individual lives.

Every human has one very powerful vote.
The money he/she spends on products and services.
Make wise consumer choices and support companies and products and service providers that do not ravage the resources of our home earth.

There are many good companies that are using sustainable methods and resources. Support their growth and eventually we can weed out all the companies that are not doing the same.
When you think about it, no business no matter how large or small will stay in business if the consumer does not support it by purchasing its goods or services.
Just be a wise consumer and eco conscientious human. It may require a little effort but in the long run it will turn things around for the better of all of us.

M A, I do not think any of what I suggest is
"pseudosymbolic hogwash meant to pull at heartstrings and validate your desire to perhaps become Pocahontas".

I deeply care about the planet earth that I call home. To suggest that I wrote all that just to get attention is quite a low blow and I think quite uncalled for.
Why did you personally feel the need to put down my comments on this doc? They are my comments and my opinions. How I see it.
Perhaps because you know deep with your being that yes, we have messed the world up pretty darn good for the short time we have humans been on it. In spite of all the glorious human accomplishments that you have mentioned we are still not as smart as we think.

NotAsSmartAsWeThink

"it's time to stop ignoring the scientific community in favor of business growth." Really?
How many in the scientific communities work for the business community. They are legion.

Consumer products are tested in scientific labs paid by businesses.
Medical research labs are supported by pharmaceutical companies.
Geologists are hired by the oil companies.
Even psycholigsts are hired by companies. etc.

Businesses employ many many scientists, perhaps not directly under their business umbrella but much scientific work is farmed out to independent labs.

In fact that is one way business such as those in the cosmetics industry can claim they do no animal testing. No they do not but they have hired others to do it for them.

I think business money very often determines the course of scientific research. Not all scientists are conducting pure independent research.

M A

@ Notassmart:

What law tells you that we can't ever separate corporate interest from scientific research? :/

Believe it or not, there is some objective science going on in the world.

It's a known fact that 'research' conducted by some industries are often skewed, flawed, biased, unscientific. Try again please.

M A

" it cost to produce it, or for that matter any other product they may purchase. Could you survive in the wilderness on your own? If you cannot answer yes then indeed you have been conditioned from birth to live an unnatural existence that is dependent upon the whims and wishes of others in your species."

This is what I meant by my (admitedly harsh) words. Humans have ALWAYS been co dependent, it is how we have survived for so long. That is the NATURAL way for us to function, in groups. As such, look in the animal kingdom; whenever there is a organised society, tasks are usually assigned for the survival of the pack, they don't function as a hive mind and YES the individuals will struggle to survive on their own.

Take wolves; it takes the PACK to take down large enough animals to feed everyone, including the young, the old, the mothers. (though they do abandon their old if memory serves). Otherwise, a lone wolf has to settle for much smaller and volatile prey.

"Surprise a mother bear and her cubs while walking on a trail in the wilderness. She attacks you to protect her young but what do other humans do after you are dead? They hunt her down and kill her because she dared to hurt a human who didn't know better than to make enough noise so as not to surprise her."

I don't think it's RIGHT to kill an animal frivolously but you have to admit that it's indeed in man's instincts to remove a potential threat if he is able. What you are describing is basically territorialism; and many species will aggressively defend theirs including humans. :/

I maintain that what you're saying has more to do with the emotive nature of the matter than the objective standpoint. I agree with a lot you're saying, you know. I just don't think we should delude ourselves with grandiose visions of what nature is supposed to be like. Believing that we humans somehow escaped these (often destructive) instincts is elevating ourselves as the 'master' of the planet.

Rolands

I you both are blinde to see how much sh*t is around in the world. Please spend 1 year and travel to places that are not nice miami , hawai beach sides.

techlegends

I haven't yet watched the whole thing, but it's another documentary trying to enlighten us to how our culture and current human way of life is not sustainable by this world. I haven't heard any answers to the complaining yet, but I guess the first answer is the documentary itself... we need to have this stuff on our minds constantly before any real change can be done.

On a side note, every time I feel compelled to check out the comments for a documentary on this site, all I see are mostly long winded arguments between people which have gone off on tangents quite far off topic from the movie. It's just a waste of time. If you go to write a comment, please, keep it within a few short paragraphs and provide thoughts that are of use to people watching or potentially watching the movie. C'mon now.

the555hit

Life At The End Of Empire.

"Hopi man he say 'enough already' "

This man's poetic litany of researched ideas, the soft insistent even strength of the voice, the diligence and sincerity of the work make it compelling.

The panicking idea that we are not living a sustainable life is ultimately as self-centered as our erstwhile unquestioned need for bigger cars 'n burgers, uh, however.

"Continued existence at all costs even when it means no computer when i fancy a wank and no GPS when i'm lost in the Himalayas where i went for my enlightenment". The need for morality -- to possess a morality to inflict on another for his perceived sins appears to be something of a constant .. We change labels, yesterday 'Christian', today 'Alternative' but the finger stays wagging. How long before the new meek Alternative are packaged by empire into some witch burning inquisition the way Constantine packaged Christianity assuring via the Vatican the survival of a freebased Roman Empire? In all our self condemnation there is at root a belief in our separateness from nature equal at least to that which informs the testosteronised excesses of the most exultant gung ho capitalist. There is a failure to grasp one time that life, nasty old you and me, the innocent doe and the crafty fox plus all the bacteria between our toes and the maggots that will eat them if we don't disappear up a crematory chimney is just what happens to occur when you leave mud for 4 billion years, or much less even. We are it, life, no different to the woolly mammoth, no better and no worse, we are what clay does (hey Genesis..!) and whatever it is we do is life's wish. Any animal would want to be us, but he made evolutionary decisions which got in his way, poor dear. A man in China wants everything an American has -- he too the unthinkable freedom from the oppression of other people, of family, all nicely mediated by money and hence capitalism, two cars at least and as much kingsize milkshake as he can pump into his guts. When the last car inhales its last whiff of petrol or chokes years earlier along with most of life on the last atom of free oxygen it'll be time for the cockroaches and earthworms to take over and evolve and build a better world, learning from the embarrassment of errors we left behind in timeless digital form. It'll take them a couple of million years, a proverbial blink of the eye of universal time but soon enough they'll be raking the moon for helium 3, discovering instantaneous teleportation, partying on neighbouring planets and so on.. life will go on, have no doubt. If we want life to be different this lifetime and coming ones, with more 'depth' less 'profoundly depressing' shopping mall trash and more hominy pie for less people it may take less than a 90% cull but it'll take more, and more humour and charisma than a few very unattractive and superior miserablists can put onto camera in a seriously well-intended but ultimately moralising and hokey documentary. I mean, Philip Glass?

JohnBrady

Let there be no mistake. The principle of the Oneness of Mankind—the pivot round which all the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh revolve—is no mere outburst of ignorant emotionalism or an expression of vague and pious hope. Its appeal is not to be merely identified with a reawakening of the spirit of brotherhood and good-will among men, nor does it aim solely at the fostering of harmonious cöoperation among individual peoples and nations. Its implications are deeper, its claims greater than any which the Prophets of old were allowed to advance. Its message is applicable not only to the individual, but concerns itself primarily with the nature of those essential relationships that must bind all the states and nations as members of one human family. It does not constitute merely the enunciation of an ideal, but stands inseparably associated with an institution adequate to embody its truth, demonstrate its validity, and perpetuate its influence. It implies an organic change in the structure of present-day society, a change such as the world has not yet experienced. It constitutes a challenge, at once bold and universal, to outworn shibboleths of national creeds—creeds that have had their day and which must, in the ordinary course of events as shaped and controlled by Providence, give way to a new gospel, fundamentally different from, and infinitely superior to, what the world has already conceived. It calls for no less than the reconstruction and the demilitarization of the whole civilized world—a world organically unified in all the essential aspects of its life, its political machinery, its spiritual aspiration, its trade and finance, its script and language, and yet infinite in the diversity of the national characteristics of its federated units.

JohnBrady

If long-cherished ideals and time-honoured institutions, if certain social assumptions and religious formulae have ceased to promote the welfare of the generality of mankind, if they no longer minister to the needs of a continually evolving humanity, let them be swept away and relegated to the limbo of obsolescent and forgotten doctrines. Why should these, in a world subject to the immutable law of change and decay, be exempt from the deterioration that must needs overtake every human institution? For legal standards, political and economic theories are solely designed to safeguard the interests of humanity as a whole, and not humanity to be crucified for the preservation of the integrity of any particular law or doctrine."

— Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 170.

Guest

you mention arc and lets build a boat at the end of the movie. even if people don't destroy the planet, yellow stone or a asteroid can. planets die and new one are born. the meaning behind oah's arc given to us by alien intelligence is to prepare some day to be able to leave this lovely place is search of others.

gerisboyle

I was sickiened at the end the way he made himself out to be some poetic protagonist in all of this. Obviously he is still quite comfortable enough to be living in cartoon land. Does he feel bad about the starving people as he swans around lush fields in america? Oh! what a brave soul
Build a boat ? What a crock. The empire has been raping the world and now its balancing out. Stop crying and go out like a man, empire, take it like a man.

Guest

intersting. Shame about the opening threat of 5 years in jail for sharing it?

TheJurg71

That was my first impression too. It's all another type of jail bait. :( lol

I've read a lot of negative comments about this documentary. The only clear message that people seem to have gotten out of it is that they are mad at the writer for spreading information and not having an answer to the problems we all face.
Isn't it obvious? There is no answer to such a complete cluster-f*** of a problem that rests in so many disciplines with as many opinions as people involved. No one is willing to give up what they have and no one is willing to go quietly into the night.
So there it is. The answer is there is no answer. We ARE at the end of this way of life. And I for one am glad. This human run world has been a tough sell to my higher brain function and albeit my soul. For I believe that every single one of you out there in your quietest time when you are alone feel the way I do. This world wasn't working properly because people weren't acting properly for a very, very long time now.
Good luck everyone.

themarywidow

Hello environmentalists , Read the bible.. God made the earth, He then made the animals , then He made man, and gave man dominion over it all, He told them to be fruitful, to muliply and to fill the earth and SUBDUE it... He gave us the brains to develop the things we need to do exactly that... Now you idiots want to throw the baby out with the bath water... you want to go back to the dark ages when we lived in caves, before we discovered fire... I have an idea, why dont you all get together, and move to a big deserted ialand, and live off the land.. I wonder just how long you qould last !!!

Guest

@themarywidow,

After centuries passing by, I see that loving someone is living with someone on an everyday day basis.
Because of obvious reasons...

Now themarywidow, tell me how many times did humankind felt "HIS" warm loving presence FACTUALLY since the anciant testament written by an "Unknown" self declared "Envoy"?

And here, come up with simple basic facts and not with endless "Blah-Blah" which guaranteed to puzzle any children just as if the "Blah-Blah" obviously bare the intention to specify that "Only Selected Religees" such as you for instance CAN UNDERSTAND this world.

In times of holocausts and war crimes of all sorts, there's an proven "Old Saying" that state : Do it yourself, coze otherwise. Huh?

I guess that for such actions of good will in helping others, it first requires a sensibility to other's deep sufferings?
A sense of "Abnegation" of oneself in a way.
The allies some 60 years back is only one FACTUAL exemple.
Some exemples are good some are not but they are FACTUAL!

What Blah-Blah have got to say?

Pierre.

joe31

let god decide who stays and goes ,flood earth quakes not one man over others,everyone sows what they reap

Mark Betty

@ themarywidow It strikes me as interesting that generally, religions that originated from regions like Africa and the native Americas, where contact with nature was unavoidable—stress harmony, inclusion in and respect for nature, while desert and European religions, with hostile environments and minimal contact with nature, stress separation from and domination of it. Have we have become so accustomed to our tiny concrete islands, where all we see of nature is domesticated (bred into docility), in plastic wraps on supermarket shelves, behind zoo bars, or scurrying underfoot, that we have become convinced of some privileged position in it?

Are you a traveling person? Have you ever seen proud savagery in a wild gorilla's eyes, knowing that it could knock a human's head clean off with a warning swat, or elephantiasis parasites bubbling greedily under a child's flesh. These and other organisms would take the planet in a second if they were given the chance, and the continuing belief that (current) human privilege and material superiority is somehow 'built in' to the system, will, in time, give them just such a chance. That is of course, if we don't kill ourselves first.

(They came, they conquered their environment, they bloated, they died. This has been the story of unsustainable organic populations from bacteria to deer. Will this be our story? Yes, unless we use the smarts that took us this far and see what we have put ourselves on the brink of.)

Yes, humans are one of nature's current success stories. We are smarter, we cooperate, we use tools, practice agriculture and build structures. Like ants, but better. We also have some unique skills that we value, like poetry. But elephants can never forget, dolphins never sleep, electric eels make electricity from their bodies and birds can read electromagnetic waves.

A belief that nature is there for our service has also led to the environmental crises we are now facing--perhaps the greatest threat to our survival as a species we have ever faced (sadly, the effects are worse in the countries which have less resources to mitigate damage, and which ironically have contributed less to the state of affairs). We have been the dominant species on the planet for 5 million years, but remember, dinosaurs had it for 170 million, and in the natural course of things, others may, no, will, rise to take the mantle. And if they are thinking creatures like us, they will likely, in their cultural youth, create a world view that puts them at the center. As they say, if the horses had a God, it would be a horse.

So what explains the success of cultures that stress domination of nature. Because an attitude of domination of nature will lead to technological developments that will create material privileges for some, for some time. But it is also the case that this attitude of domination and the technology will invariably be turned on other humans.

In the end, it may still be the case that the entire universe, with its 100 billion stars per galaxy, and 100 billion observed galaxies, and almost as many planets exist for the satisfaction of a few billion humans on this lonely speck of dust we call earth. Whatever the case, I believe we rise above our nature when we deal kindly with our 'servants', as some religions say God has dealt kindly with us, his servants.

If your basis for believing the universe exists to serve humans is faith, it is unlikely anything I say will impact you. But even within a Christian, Islamic or whatever final judgment religion you subscribe to framework (you mentioned final judgment somewhere), could great dominion be taken to mean even greater responsibility? Could the lesson intended by God be that true greatness is achieved when we take good care of what we are given power over?

Regarding proving you wrong that the universe is made for humans: I do not have the burden of proof. It is you who have made an extraordinary assertion that is at odds with what is readily observed in reality. If I go before a shark, it bites my head off as quickly as a seal's. If if hunt bison, I carry a big gun because I can't command it to come lay down in my furnace. Then there's the fact that most of the planet's surface is water than I can't drink or breathe, and if I ever leave the atmosphere without a space suit on I'll immediately be ripped apart, frozen and my pieces immolated by cosmic radiation. (Yes, 99.9999(and a billion more 9's)% of the universe is instantly lethal to humans.) Also, there's the fact that the universe existed for millions of years before humans, or even the earth, ever appeared (the fact that we are now seeing the light from stars we know are millions of light years away is proof the universe had to exist for at least that long to allow the light to reach us).

In the end it all comes down to the fact that some people will always believe flowers are beautiful to be pleasing to the eyes, and others will always believe that flowers are beautiful to attract the insects and birds they need to reproduce and survive. The fact that 75% of the beautiful patterns on a flower are invisible to the human eye, but are visible to birds and insects who can see UV, is for me, personally, persuasive evidence that it is the latter case that is true, but not proof. On sheer balance of probabilities, I hold that the universe is not made to serve us. And that various religions, sciences etc are our youthful attempts to find our place in something, the immensity and complexity of which we constantly wrestle with. Or perhaps it was, as the Navajo Indians believe, the great coyote who flung the stars in the sky from the great blanket of creation, or God that said let there be light. I genuinely don't know.

I was born in a Christian country because Christians are good at conquering. They said that God would save us. They also said that all none-whites existed to serve the white man. Preposterous now, but it was a popular view at the time. Nobody could say they were wrong. From this I learned that it is not about 'the' truth, it is about who has to weapons to impose 'their' truth. We all would like to have our own interpretations of things, but there are those who try to impose their views on others, and 'coincidentally', imposed views always benefit the imposer.

I can't tell you what to believe. But I believe that if we both act with kindness and compassion, and selflessness, we can agree on most courses of action, if not on the motivation.

PS
Use a UV lamp to look at a flower, its an extraordinarily beautiful thing. We can agree to that.

John Miller

Homo Sapiens were superior to Homo Erectus in that they could think ahead. Thinking ahead, planning and so on, are the key evolutionary betterment for us people. So by saying you simply aren't able to think ahead, what exactly are you meaning? That you are unable to think aghead therefore everyone else should do the same? Or you would rather let chaos ensue as you imagine Zeus will be there to fly you out?

joe31

if you read in between the lines,there trying to create fear because of over population,naybe to justify war or some others means like what china limits births to couples,nobody should contol over another what family tree or race grts to deliquent itself,whats the point of warnning unless a solution follows,that were I say let god decide.natural selection

furrious1

It always amazes me that any rational human being, that supposedly has the freedom to gather information and think for himself (herself) could ever believe in the god myth. There may be undiscovered order in the universe but it sure is NOT the god of Abraham or any such story.
I'm open to amazement and discovery but if we don't take our physical substrate (planet earth) seriously, we are close minded to an extent I only recently discovered is possible Wake up and help us save you!

Mercenarry ForHire

This is a good example of People giving you Selected Information order to shape you they way you to be.

Just do what makes you happy while taking other peoples wants and needs into account, and keep in mind We all just wanto be Happy no matter what shape and form that happiness is...

Barbara Allen

So you must be another (spoiled) Adult who doesn't WANT to believe what he actually SEEs or you just don't BOTHER to LOOK at REALITY when it happens to be NEGATIVE and might suggest that you re-assess what you've been taught or that you might have to sacrifice, like so many others have to, so you can have a 'convenient' lifestyle. I'm surprized the arrogant naysayers had the interest or balls to try to watch this film but sure nuff, their eyes just glazed over, inspite of all the murder, mayhem and destruction of ALL living things that humans have been guilty of since they evolved from the Great Ape, I mean Adam & Eve, after Humans got the bitter-sweet taste of $$, I mean that worm infested Apple - the root of all evil, besides religion. IF it had been fiction, it would've been a blockbuster! But, unfortunately, it is true and very disturbing, to say the least.

Being a Doc junkie, I found this one to be quite well-done, especially to have been made/produced by financially limited 'amateurs' AND it was also LOADED with FACTS that are evident in the 2 hrs of live-video and if you think they lie, then you must be living in a Fox-hole and never crawl out. (pun intended) Furthermore, there is such a thing (or used to be anyway) as 'wisdom' that can be extrapolated from simple facts that we can observe to be true and oft times, that wisdom comes from the minds and mouths of babes. If you bother to observe children, they are (still) connected to our true (higher) nature and the truth before it is socialized out of them by Adults, who have bought into the lies of the 'social institutions' that support & serve the Empire, NOT Humanity or any Living thing and if this 'amateurish' Doc does nothing else, it drives that point home. Which should scare everyone enough to actually CHANGE but nooo...there are millions more (spoiled, childish, religious, non-believers in scientific proof or otherwise just plain unconscious, stupid or corrupt) people just like you, who don't take these TRUTHs to heart, like this filmmaker has and rightfully so! nor do you let them upset your mind or disturb your life...

Instead, you and the other naysayers only (try) to diminish these horrific truths by labeling them as 'scare tactics' and 'money makers' and the filmmaker as a crazy, depressed dooms-dayer. BUT HE is right-on and your DENIAL is due to exactly what the film is all about - the Capitalistic motives of the Empire that has indoctrinated you all too well!! You know their mantra, Spend yourselves to Death and F*** everybody else and the planet too!! I could go on a never ending RANT here but I'll try to control myself...

At least this Doc provoked an interesting debate about Reality vs Blind Faith vs God vs Religion vs Science, especially the thought-provoking questions for 'believers in faith' vs obvious & empirical truths (scientifically proven theories like Evolution that has dis-proven Creationism but not to 'believers') from a well-spoken, critical thinking, Gay-man here but what's possibly more impt in this discussion is 'The Laws of Nature' - that humans have been breaking on a very large industrial scale for way too long for Mother Earth to be able to keep blowing her cool, b/c she is bound by those laws too and the punishments are harsh - the merciful one is DEATH. But that's no problem! say Christians, they believe they are not only forgiven for their sins to mankind and the earth but they'll go to a better place, Heaven! BUT if it *is* a real place where Christian sinners go? No doubt, they'll trash that too, so the Latter Day Saints better not count on it being there when they look for those tarnished pearly gates and the dirty streets paved with gold!! LOLOLOL - if only it were funny. Btw, that concept of Heaven was the biggest clue that the Bible is Man's (very limited) concept of God, not God's concept or plan for man and that even the Disciples worshipped $$. But little did they know how much $$ their Bible, written in sand-script no less, would make for the future Churches, Governments, Etc - cha ching, cha ching!!

So the billion $$ question is, WHAT disaster WILL IT TAKE TO SCARE HUMANS ENOUGH TO CHANGE?? Dark-skinned, Indigenous people with no education or teeth or anything left can answer that better than pious, educated, irresponsible & irrespectful white-people whom they compare to Cutter Ants that leave nada in their wake! We have already turned their formerly beautiful, vital, primitive Paradises into ugly, toxic, barren Hells, due to our over-consumption and waste. BUT at the Climate Summit in Africa, where they gathered to plead for help, the Heads of the Industrialized Countries, that have caused their eminent demise (before our own is inevitable) just spit in their faces, by agreeing to do nothing or being held accountable legally for killing off half the population except possibly to reduce emissions when it's way too late..and we just continue to go merrily shopping and about our (big, nasty, careless) business as usual, wondering why the rest of the world hates us?! Duh!! FREEDOM is not free, everything we do infringes on someone else, so everyone must do their part to conserve the resources we ALL need for LIFE and CARE enough to CHANGE what we're doing - think before you buy and then Buy American products and that will make a Big Difference...in the health & welfare of America and the world...for starters.

'There is enough for man's need but not for his greed'. Ghandi
AND
'It is no sign of health to be well-adjusted in a sick society'. Author unknown but his statement summarizes what this documentary is all about.

NrthOfTheBorder

I don't think the central message of this film is to return to the Dark Ages - or before, for that matter. We're not going to for as long as we can...no matter what.

The message is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater as I'm certain those who see this as threatening to the status-quo would impulsively believe.

The message I get, and from plenty of other directions too, is we need to change drastically. This situation folks, is different. This combination and scope of threat hasn't happened before.

The way things are now and where they're heading, I say that it is good that we do go extinct. We're currently an embarrassing species. We rely so much on others to do everything for us, whether it's a dependency on other species, other humans (labor force and factory workers etc), technology and so forth. We're to the point where we ask ourselves what's the point? What does it all mean? Etc. We can't even sit down and debate any more because our social skills are so tainted, corrupted by the individualism of modern cultures/societies. Watching "Guys and Dolls" and Discovery Health docs such as Sex Robots has shown me we're the most r*tarded of species. Most humans don't want to compromise any more and it is all about the "it's all about me" attitude. Strangely enough while in some parts of the world populations are booming while in others they're having a population crisis which can cause the collapse of that civilization/culture. I think it's due to the selfish BS nature of these cultures/societies. I wouldn't blame it on humanity as a whole since there are very nature connected cultures/societies out there, unfortunately these last batch of greater humanity are being wiped out by the id*otic humans who are corrupting these cultures/societies and telling them that their ways are primitive when in fact they're far more advanced than any computer chip. Can you grow a field of crops without advance technology helping you? I think not. Plus each passing year more and more children are diagnosed with Austism. Personally I think they're just products of society as appose to products of genetic nature. They're socially r*tarded because their societies and cultures are socially retarded. I could go on but I gotta work. :P Peace be all.

Yusiley S

Uhhh... blah blah blah... damn. I really hate documentaries with this type of narrative. It's like a 2 hr poem being recited...BORING!!! If I wanted a lecture I got to a video site about reciting garbage. Don't get me wrong the message is great but the execution is a big headache. If I wanted a ranting I go to youtube and watch idiots reciting their own views about the world. This video belongs in youtube and should stay in youtube. I wouldn't call this a documentary it's a *beep*ing poetry section. Now I'm off to CVS to get some pain killers... this guy blah blah blahing has given me a migraine. Worse than teaching a class of 60 students in a cramped auditorium with four other classes.

Matticus Arelius

one: i like that the people in this documentary bash both science and civilization, bashing civ is difficult because we can hardly see it, we are typically so assimilated and bashing science is more taboo than blasphemy

two: we are not humanity ----> sweet! that is the best news ever!

three: I'm sad that everyone in this documentary is white :(

overall, the guy is a bit lame, but the scientists/activists/folk interviewed provide a wealth of suggestions for further study and investigation into what he is saying. well played bennett, next time please include more explosions and sophisticated german technomusic...

Ken

NEXT!!!

Terry Gorle

Yusiley, what I got from the narrative is a point you don't seem to get... in the endless face of video as mindless entertainment reinforcing cultural ignorance, the author provides a point blank dose of reality.

This film speaks truth. Unfortunately for the planet, humans have created religions which will fight to the death to preserve their indoctrination.

Jo McKay

Hmm, as humans we have been a very successful species to date - at least as regards our ability to procreate. It is only the elites among us who dominate and write (in bloody greed) the 'plan' and future. Yet 'we' continue to allow this, contribute to the rape of finite resources, march to battle in wars, some of us, 'use up' far more than our share ... That is I think exactly what this doc is about - why do we stay as sheep - (I know it's old but fits here, de-nial ain't just a river in Egypt), and some of the comments I read, nit picking and tearing apart ideas and perceptions - please, surely our path to self destruction has enough 'symptoms' that we can find some common ground somewhere. Are we, in fact polluting our air, land and seas? are our fresh water reserve increasing or decreasing? Should we 'really' be fuelling our lifestyles with coal and oil? Do we really need MORE to agree. I applaud the film maker - a man on a walk-a-bout who stepped up to his own courage and shared his "feelings", then invited you (and me) to have a look at our own - and if we will - own it. Is there still time? Maybe so, maybe not - what is the alternative; as a child I threw the blanket over my eyes when I was afraid. Perhaps this is a good time to step out of childish ways - Peace

marcusmann

I have something to say.

I am disabled. Our income is less than 15000 a year.

With that income, I managed to put together a life that makes sense to me, and to my wife and kids.

We live in an old farmhouse (1847) 2,500 sq ft., with 6 bdrms and 4 bths in Maine, surrounded by woods, and rivers, and wildlife. We have all the modern conveniences. High-speed, dishwasher, etc.

We have a good well, and a septic system.

ALL our power is supplied by a grid-tied solar power system, our heat is from a wood-stove, I cut my own firewood off a 7 acre woodlot from dead-fall, diseased trees and saplings sustainably.

With the assistance of an acre of good pasture, a greenhouse and organic beds, fruit trees, and cultivated berrys, a milk goat, a small flock of chickens and a few sheep, I supply nearly all my family needs.

My family of five produces approximately 1 33 gal trash-bag of waste a week.

We are a Christian family, we homeschool, and we love each other, our home and our lives. We do not work hard. Each of us labors an hour or two a day.

This was NOT accomplished by accident, the farmhouse was a wreck when we bought it. It was NOT accomplished through inheritance. We searched the whole country online to find our dreamhome, and then left EVERYTHING to start over. It WAS accomplished with the income stated above and six years of research and development.

But mostly, it was accomplished with a deep desire to NOT be a "part of" anymore. It WAS accomplished by a family who loved one another, the planet they live on, and the God that created it.

I am NOT preaching to you, I AM telling you that even a family living below poverty level, CAN achieve a sustainable, comfortable, happy life.

We live off the land, gently, happily, and today about 80% of that income is left over each month. We owe no debts. Everything is paid for and insured.

MY DEAR FRIENDS, IT WAS NOT HARD TO DO.

AlfBeta

Ha, wald0!! I've been around the world and back, and found this convo where we left off in case you still interested in response-behaviour of volcanoes'! But a little longer yet before I can actually write here, happy to find it though!

Sherman Monro

This documentary is absolutely brilliant! It has a rich and flowing script, effective photography, and perfect sound. It exactly explains and pictures what I am thinking about everyday, but don’t know how to say it and who to tell it. People are stuck in their cozy cocoons of illusions and reluctant to hear about the gradual annihilation of life around them. Indeed, they are more enthusiast about watching Madonna’s boobs while biting on their BigMcs than thinking for a moment about their relation with the nature here and the rest of the cosmos.
It’s hard to believe how disconnected we are with the universe. It’s hard to believe that GREED is whipping out the whole civilization from the face of this planet. It’s hard to believe how relatively a small number of individuals are accumulating wealth by engaging in practices that will lead to the annihilation of man on Earth. It’s hard to believe that how nasty man can be in its actions when it comes to his love for material world! It’s hard to believe despite obvious scientific evidences that ‘life’ is diminishing, man is oblivious to what is happening around him. It’s hard to believe how self-centered man has become, ignoring the future of his offspring and being engaged only in experiencing instant pleasure by devouring the resources of this planet as fast as and similar to caterpillars nibbling on a tree’s leaves.

Have we been mentally evolved too? Or the evolution is applied only to our physical features?

As it points out in this film, denial is pandemic and it’s impossible to convince a Banker or a CEO of an oil company that we are all doomed to perish if the current practices of man on this planet are not stopped. It’s impossible to convince the leaders of developed countries that they are all on a wrong track. Their minds are so contaminated that it’s hard to change or modified. It’s impossible to make them understand that instead of waging wars and killing millions of innocent people and destruction of ecosystem to exploit and plunder the resources of another region of this planet, they have to think of a sustainable solution. A solution based on empathy for other fellow men and sharing what is available on this planet and finding sustainable solutions to generate energy. A solution based on connection with the universe and our immediate environment. This requires the abandonment of current consumerist and wasteful life style by almost one third of the population on this planet (mainly US, Europe... and recently joined China), which has caused suffrage to the rest of the population and guarantees the extinction of life on Earth in near future. This won’t happen because although we have advanced in sciences, when it comes to morality, we are probably still very similar to our cavemen ancestors.

Thanks to the producer and all others involved in putting together such a valuable illustration of status quo.

john

Lots to think about. Much I agree with. Not sure I share the same conclusions about civilization, capitalism and technology. Somehow have more hope in the human spirit and the spirit within the universe to guide us into life-giving solutions. But, I am made to think... and perhaps fear the worse. But, more hopeful we can, by God's help, get it right.

jibara

The lifestyle you've created for yourself is extraordinarily exemplary.

jibara

The lifestyle you've created is extraordinarily exemplary. Bravo! Can I intern with you?

marcusmann

Lol, Intern?

rljp

marcusman. Here is the flaw. The planet cannot sustain people living as you do though that is hard to understand maybe. In many cases there simply isn't the plot of land for everyone. There is no this or that solution. I congratulate you on doing it but see little point in mentioning your faith. Take your model and go into a city in Asia and tell us how it can work there. No one can. We need to find ways to make it work but you telling us how you have done it in some semi remote area is pointless as it is no where near a solution for a place the size of your great state yet maybe 100 times the population. So you got to Mumbai or Jakarta or Manilla and tell us that it is not "HARD TO DO". This myoptic view is the challenge. The west thinks in this little box when it comes to sustainability as they consume the most on a per capita basis.

Winter Ross

Bill McKibben in this months Rolling Stone Points out that we won't have to wait for Peak Oil. The Shift is upon us.

Jo McKay

excellent, long past time for an emotional piece...and it is way too late to pander to the delusional and 'ignorant'. Those who sincerely have difficulty trying to figure out 'who is speaking truth' need only ask "who benefits?" (oil companies, paid for governments, the super rich have had their say long enough to imprison us all - time to maybe listen to someone else?)

Mike Mathwig

Here's the answer;
Step one: We admitted we were powerless over our country of birth- that our lives had become unmanageable. Step two: Came to beleive that apower greater than a corporation could restore us to sanity....If you can't grasp these two now, the other ten would be wasted on ya..Bye!

tobiatesan

Except that there's no God.

NrthOfTheBorder

I watched this film some time ago...and I keep thinking of it.

A book on the same subject I'd highly recommend is "A Short History of Progress" by Ronald Wright. This book has the same impact.

Part of our problem folks is this problem is so momentous that whenever we try to grasp its dimensions our reflexive response mechanism takes over. We then postpone what should be (and no doubt will be) a call to an emergency.

teresa sumrall

This is one of the best docs I have seen on this site. Truthful, direct, and hard-hitting, one can not help but feel deep grief over our rape of nature. But it is not as though our world has suddenly got messed up. Look at our human history. Reliable, effective birth control has been available since 1964, yet our population has doubled since 1950. Don't want to explain why our generation failed to act with reason to your kids? Simple. Don't breed.

David Thomas

what about the people that are living without basic needs? They will be the ones that pay for the reduction in fossil fuels. Look at hans rosling for an in depth view of the population problem. I think we will keep going in the way we are and will keep going and develop as we have been for billions of years. It is inevitable but yes we can stop exploiting to the point of changing more than what is necessary FOR US TO LIVE AS LONG AS WE COULD.

Tony_so13

I've just begun watching, but I've read Daniel Quinn's novels, Ishmael and The Story of B, and this seems to be almost a video retelling for their stories.

Tony_so13

I don't want to get into the religion argument, but to be environmental simply means to live in an earth sustaining way.
You do know the bible is a book of stories written for other religions that predate christianity right?

Tony_so13

Hold on! 5 barrels of oil used for every 1 found?!

That is not even physically, energetically or mathematically possible. I call bulls*it.

Michelle

I agree. There are just too many people. I got myself fixed after having one child, after my partner and I agonized over the "one or none" decision for years. I would encourage everyone to do the same. Religions that forbid birth control are a big problem as are potential grandparents encouraging their children to have children.

Michelle

Actually it is 5 barrels of oil extracted or used from existing/known oil fields for every one barrel of new untapped oil reserves found. Try to listen better honey.

Deborah Macaoidh Selim

How are you disabled?

Deborah Macaoidh Selim

If he's right and we don't do anything about it, population bottleneck will take care of it for us. Your choice!

Sarae Bettany

I want to watch it again already!

Gayle Robison

Pure poetry: the poetry of calamity.

Rough McHewn

So here we are on a collision course with reality: What can't carry on, won't. I somehow knew that, but those who buy our political leaders think that they will be able to purchase salvation amid the destruction they have wrought upon mother earth and all her beings.
With the transfer of our culture (read GM seeds not suited for their particular climate and soils) to every corner of the earth, we have virtually assured that there will be no alternate culture, as primitive and as self-sufficient as it recently was, will not be able to inherit the earth.
With the mighty capitalists in control of the world, no other socio-economic system has been allowed, period. You get bombed for trying.
As was stated, where we are headed is where we will terminate.

cyberfrank

wonderful documentary, best I have seen all year, filled with truth, here s more; the forbidden fruit was nt the apple, it was the sugar cane.. it drives humans crazy, next, we discovered oil, which made us way too powerful, both elements drove us to this point... anyone who saw the movie chain reaction understand that the u.s. believes that oil is crucial in their empire s supremacy, so, they ll suppress any other way of living, + the elite who got rich on it will survive the present system s fall, and fall it will, the oil will run out, things will change, and lots of people will die, which will solve the overpopulation, unfortunately, I fear that the air is so polluted, that we get asphyxiated, and our brains don t have clean air, to work right, we re getting dumber, and fail to react to the situation, those who will survive the downfall won t be enviable, as, most of the beauty of this world will be gone, earth will be a kind of hell, no animals, no trees, awful water, pestilence and deformity, those who are now rich and powerful, and could do something about our salvation, will inherit a wasteland, egoistical people will have build their own hell.

Mi Kha El Srphm

Dear Marcus,

Could you email/write me more...
I would like to know about your inititative,
and the way you live at the farmhouse, and how you made it work practically as it does with God's help...

How do you provide for your family and cattle and surroundings,
just write me anything you would like to share,

Looking forward,

F

Anton

Does this guy think he's Michael Moore?

deed

Seriously this guy is a Michael Moore wannabe. That first part was like...oh I'm from Michigan, parents were this and that, might as well been lifted from a MM doc....all the rest of this stuff is too brainwashy...stock images and video from the 60s flashing so fast I had to turn it off after 5 minutes...there are better docs if you want to be paranoid and have nothing to solve it with at the end of the doc...yeah these are all the same...fear and paranoia, and with no real way to change it. Yeah we are all f--ked...so the f--k what...nothing we can do about it now!!!