If the city wants their train, they better start repairing the line the way they want it to be.Can the Mayor wield a Spike mauler?

bigjim4life

Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:44 pm

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 pmPosts: 684Location: Bucks County, PA

At this point, stop fighting it. Save your time, energy, and resources to packing up and moving. It's clear that no matter how hard people want the trains to stay in Noblesville, the township will have none of it, and will always find a way to get them out. Focus on getting everything out of there and to a place where they are wanted.

I am very disappointed with the city of Noblesville for doing all of this to a harmless and popular tourist attraction that preserves local history. I wish ITM the best of luck with moving their things to Logansport. Hopefully they will be able to take at least two or three of their locomotives and enough rolling stock to continue operations up north. My main concerns are the depot from Hobbs, IN and the NKP 587 because at present the locomotive is no more than a 1:1 scale kit.

I hope this is a wake up call for other museums so they can make a plan to move elsewhere without difficulty if they lose their property.

I have lived in Indiana all my life and have known of the ITM since the mid-1970s. This group has had continued internal conflict and a do not give a d--n of what anyone else thinks. They have been in, off and on battles with the park board for as long as I can remember. They have been given many notices to clean up their site in the park and do as little as possible to respond to those notices/orders from their "Landlord".

What I would advise, for those of you who are willing to seek out info other then that posted on a railfan site, go to the Noblesville, Indiana web site. Do your own search as I did this evening.

I had a conversation with someone this evening that told me to go to the city's site and look at the chain of letters, etc. between the city and the ITM, just in regards to the improper chemical storage and the contamination on their site, in a "City Park".

If they continue this type of operation in another city, they will not last long their either.

You could also visit the ITM site and ask to go behind the scenes, where most people never go and see for yourself.

There are just too many faces here, on all side that have had it with each other and the city's feel that the best solution for them, is to start over with a new operator.

I am not in favor of any of the track being removed for a trail and I hope that the STB rules against the cities on their current petition before the board. The proper order of abandonment, "OFA" and railbanking must be upheld. The way the attorney for the cities is doing this, is an attempt to bypass the "OFA" process, for fear someone will step forward to purchase the rail line.

This is my opinion based on what I have seen, with my own eyes and everyone else is entitled to their own as well.

Cameron Wolk

Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:57 am

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pmPosts: 256

AlcoC420 wrote:

I have lived in Indiana all my life and have known of the ITM since the mid-1970s. This group has had continued internal conflict and a do not give a d--n of what anyone else thinks. They have been in, off and on battles with the park board for as long as I can remember. They have been given many notices to clean up their site in the park and do as little as possible to respond to those notices/orders from their "Landlord".

What I would advise, for those of you who are willing to seek out info other then that posted on a railfan site, go to the Noblesville, Indiana web site. Do your own search as I did this evening.

I had a conversation with someone this evening that told me to go to the city's site and look at the chain of letters, etc. between the city and the ITM, just in regards to the improper chemical storage and the contamination on their site, in a "City Park".

If they continue this type of operation in another city, they will not last long their either.

You could also visit the ITM site and ask to go behind the scenes, where most people never go and see for yourself.

There are just too many faces here, on all side that have had it with each other and the city's feel that the best solution for them, is to start over with a new operator.

I am not in favor of any of the track being removed for a trail and I hope that the STB rules against the cities on their current petition before the board. The proper order of abandonment, "OFA" and railbanking must be upheld. The way the attorney for the cities is doing this, is an attempt to bypass the "OFA" process, for fear someone will step forward to purchase the rail line.

This is my opinion based on what I have seen, with my own eyes and everyone else is entitled to their own as well.

I spoke with one of their members while I was then searching for a boxcar in 2015. They appear to be a great group of guys with a lot of potential but there are feuds far and wide among them. It was depressing to have their curator tell me they were falling behind in their projects because of quote "labor troubles." The city has a working railroad museum within their vicinity, what did they expect an elegant 7 star hotel? It should of been expected that cleanliness might be a problem. With ITM's own situation Noblesville could've cut them some slack and given them another shot at it.

I spoke with one of their members while I was then searching for a boxcar in 2015. They appear to be a great group of guys with a lot of potential but there are feuds far and wide among them. It was depressing to have their curator tell me they were falling behind in their projects because of quote "labor troubles." The city has a working railroad museum within their vicinity, what did they expect an elegant 7 star hotel? It should of been expected that cleanliness might be a problem. With ITM's own situation Noblesville could've cut them some slack and given them another shot at it.

The feud with the City over the rather junky state of the site has been going on for years, if not decades. The city has given ITM numerous chances to reform its behavior.

The "elegant 7 star hotel" belies a foamer-like attitude, the same one held by ITM's "leadership" that got them in this mess. I doubt the City expects a "7 star hotel" but wants an organization that is a tenant on City property to maintain an neat and orderly operation. At the end of the day, ITM was a tenant on property owned by others. ITM has had 52 years at that site, and over 30 operating the former NKP mainline to find their own site, own their own land, and be as junky as they want to be. They didn't, and now they suffer the consequences.

In the 21st century, railway museums need to be run in as professional a manner as possible. ITM has failed to do this on many levels, and now their very existence is threatened. We should learn from this, instead of trying to be foamers.

The City has a good site that details all of the steps, including providing copies of all relevant correspondence.

I spoke with one of their members while I was then searching for a boxcar in 2015. They appear to be a great group of guys with a lot of potential but there are feuds far and wide among them. It was depressing to have their curator tell me they were falling behind in their projects because of quote "labor troubles." The city has a working railroad museum within their vicinity, what did they expect an elegant 7 star hotel? It should of been expected that cleanliness might be a problem. With ITM's own situation Noblesville could've cut them some slack and given them another shot at it.

The feud with the City over the rather junky state of the site has been going on for years, if not decades. The city has given ITM numerous chances to reform its behavior.

The "elegant 7 star hotel" belies a foamer-like attitude, the same one held by ITM's "leadership" that got them in this mess. I doubt the City expects a "7 star hotel" but wants an organization that is a tenant on City property to maintain an neat and orderly operation. At the end of the day, ITM was a tenant on property owned by others. ITM has had 52 years at that site, and over 30 operating the former NKP mainline to find their own site, own their own land, and be as junky as they want to be. They didn't, and now they suffer the consequences.

In the 21st century, railway museums need to be run in as professional a manner as possible. ITM has failed to do this on many levels, and now their very existence is threatened. We should learn from this, instead of trying to be foamers.

The City has a good site that details all of the steps, including providing copies of all relevant correspondence.

Noblesville has an inept local government with a trail of corruption. How can you support their actions? ITM is the only major attraction in the area that gives the town revenue, they're obviously playing with fire. By your assertions we're all foamers on this board prying for dreams that may or never occur. There are museums in worse physical shape than ITM yet I don't hear anyone criticizing them. If idiot from party Z wants railroad museum X to be removed he will stop at nothing no matter what anyone else thinks. I work in politics on a daily basis and it can be very unethical, people will stop at nothing to get what they want even if it hurts the little guy. When they come for your organization you can yell all you want but no one will help you in the end. It's a never ending cycle Wilkins.

Cameron I really think you need to re-read the comments by Mr. Wilkins.

It all boils down to the fact that ITM didn't own the property. If ITM was asked to clean it up multiple times and just laughed it off, then they are a tenant who is acting in a negligent manner. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how nice the individuals of ITM seem when talking to a visitor. The owner of the land, in this case the city, is fully in their right to remove the negligent tenant.

Moral of the story, own your own land or play by the owner's rules...your choice which you take away from this.

Cameron I really think you need to re-read the comments by Mr. Wilkins.

It all boils down to the fact that ITM didn't own the property. If ITM was asked to clean it up multiple times and just laughed it off, then they are a tenant who is acting in a negligent manner. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how nice the individuals of ITM seem when talking to a visitor. The owner of the land, in this case the city, is fully in their right to remove the negligent tenant.

Moral of the story, own your own land or play by the owner's rules...your choice which you take away from this.

If he made it as easy as that to understand originally then I would've probably had no concern with it. Coming from a political perspective I am disgusted by the actions of recent lawmakers to undermine the history of our country and in some cases demolish it. I always put an emphasis on community when making policy proposals to examine how every business or citizen will be affected. What I'd like museums to understand is that they can't take anything for granted, there will always be individuals out there willing to do the worst of things to benefit themselves. As what President Theodore Roosevelt once said "speak softly but carry a big stick" every rail organization should be looking out for each other I cannot stress this principle enough.

If he made it as easy as that to understand originally then I would've probably had no concern with it. Coming from a political perspective I am disgusted by the actions of recent lawmakers to undermine the history of our country and in some cases demolish it. I always put an emphasis on community when making policy proposals to examine how every business or citizen will be affected. What I'd like museums to understand is that they can't take anything for granted, there will always be individuals out there willing to do the worst of things to benefit themselves. As what President Theodore Roosevelt once said "speak softly but carry a big stick" every rail organization should be looking out for each other I cannot stress this principle enough.

I'm sorry you did not understand what I wrote. I'll type slower next time and use simpler words.

ITM isn't the only attraction in the area. Conner Prairie is nearby, and it's a rather booming area of suburban Indianapolis. You obviously didn't look around the last time you were in Hamilton County, Indiana. They aren't some rural 40 person town in central Nebraska.

It would be hard for me to advocate any rail organization I'm involved with to "look out" for ITM and help them at this point. They've ignored the first rule of holes. Stop digging. I wouldn't want any organization I'm involved with to risk damaging its brand and reputation.

This is a situation they clearly put themselves into, handing Noblesville the sword that will possibly slay ITM as an organization. I really hope the museum is able to move to Logansport and be successful at its new location.

You throw out charges like "trail of corruption" without facts. Tell me, how does not renewing a lease, constitute a corrupt, and by implication an illegal act under Indiana and/or Federal law? Significant claims require that you present significant evidence.

View this and then come back and tell all of us, that you really want something like this in your back yard, your neighbor's yard or in some city park that you visit.

Then go to the other topic I posted on the ITM and check out some of the last post.

Go to the city of Noblesville, Indiana web site and look up the cancelled lease with ITM and some of the other links there.

Make sure that you do not miss the part on the waste clean up on the site by the Indiana Department of Environmental Management.

I watched the video Alco and all I saw were a bunch of teenage trespassers invading private museum property. Honestly if you think that's something you haven't seen the back lot of the NMOT in St Louis, the IRM's collection of artifacts that most likely will never be restored, French Lick's line of derelict passenger cars or most locally our own RMLI line of formerly rusting P72s. A railroad museum where it may be clean has its dirty parts like it should. What it sounds like is an inexperienced bureaucrat who knows too little is making a poor judgement of the situation. Parents will always know a railroad museum as a premier attraction for their kids no matter where they are. It's a shame to see ignorance in broad daylight.

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