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Vote of confidence: The Simons

Ok, were going to bring it all home right here with this vote. It goes no higher than this.

As with Walsh all I ask is that if you wish to use past performance as future indicators then please keep it to actual accomplishments and not "give them a pass" or "throw them under the bus" because they did or did not do whatever.

Examples:

The Pacers were going to hell in a handbasket and we were weeks away from moving the team but the civic minded Simons stepped in and saved our franchise and for that I will always give them a pass.

or

The Simons were so concerned with the bottom line that they would not allow Donnie Walsh to re-sign Brad Miller because it would have put them over the cap and thus destroyed what could have been our best front court ever and for that I will never forgive them.

Both of the above are legitimate complaints or compliments but neither are appropriate for this.

The question is simple.

Do you believe that the Simons can lead our franchise out of the problems that they are in?

Of course even this question is open to a lot of play because depending on what you view the job of an owner is. I'll let you decide that for yourself.

Also I think it's safe to say that Herb is THE operating owner at this point although we have heard that David Simons either has taken over a lot of the day to day or soon will.

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

No

The Simons are not basketball people. They depend too much on others to make the right decisions about the franchise. They have relied on Donnie far too much and are afraid to change completely because they don't want to leave their comfort zone.

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Nope. They are in the true "the buck stops here" position. Everyone we've complained about is under them.

They are fiddling while Conseco burns...

I'm curious how well respected the Simons and Walsh really are in the league offices. We used to hear all the time how well respected our organization was (of course we heard it from the likes of our local press when they were soley the PR arm of the Pacers).... Then 11/19 happened and all that respect didn't amount to anything. ...No benefit of the doubt for the Pacers. The Pacers got all the 11/19 blame and the Pistons skated as if they were the victims without any blame.

As an aside: I always thought there were two ways to handle the brawl from the Pacers' POV. TPTB found a 3rd one.

The first one would've been to hand out serious suspensions/punishments before the league had a chance to act. Get out in the lead on it and grab he bull by the horns. .... But....Always making it clear we didn't believe we're totally to blame but that we only have the power to address our own players. Then, since we've already punished our players, try and get Stern to take a few days before making his decision on the Pacers and try and convince him not to make a death knell punishment out of it and let our punishments stand.

Orrrrrr.... vehemently stand up for the team and franchise and while accepting some blame, attack the punishments as being too unfair and too one-sided, play the martyr card, and then put PR (and legal) pressure on the league to reassess the penalties. ...And challenge them in public for trying to throw the Pacers under the bus when the problem was bigger than that.

Instead, we chose the silent, half-***, tail-between our legs method. We let the media come around to dumping on the Pacers alone. We took no actions to see to it this wouldn't be tolerated of our own players again. We let 'the system' play out and let the league take the lead on this. Then we accepted it like a whipped pup. Maybe we did some things behind the scenes, maybe not. Obviously they weren't very effective if we did. ... And behind the scenes was never going to have any effect on public opinion.

In the end we didn't stand up for our players, fans, or franchise, nor did we hit the problem head on and dole out our own punishments and show the fans and league we stand for something better in Pacerland.

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

The Simons are not basketball people. They depend too much on others to make the right decisions about the franchise. They have relied on Donnie far too much and are afraid to change completely because they don't want to leave their comfort zone.

Indicisiveness=no confidence.

I typed a bunch of words when I could've just gave this post an

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Do you believe that the Simons can lead our franchise out of the problems that they are in?

Yeah. I want them to stay in possession of the team. They are good guys. They are civic minded. And they've got more tin than anybody else in Indianapolis, don't they?

The Simons have done what owners ought to do: put somebody they trust in charge, give them the keys and stand back. They've shown in the past that they are willing to spend money. Two seasons ago, the Pacers had the 4th or 5th highest payroll in the NBA.

Their fault is they've been too patient, too trusting for the past couple of years. I think they need to appoint some new top management and crack the whip a little. I say "Yes" because I believe they are capable of doing that effectively and that they will do it as soon as Donnie steps down.

Last edited by Putnam; 03-04-2008 at 08:13 AM.

And I won't be here to see the dayIt all dries up and blows awayI'd hang around just to seeBut they never had much use for meIn Levelland. (James McMurtry)

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

A tepid yes.

They've been overly loyal to DW and that's a mistake right now IMO. OTOH they've been very loyal to Indy - maybe overly so there too. Plus they don't interfere too much with basketball decisions - they know they build malls and shopping centers, not basketball teams.

And if you're going to be "overly" something I'd prefer people who are overly loyal to people who are overly fickle.

Unless you're Jim Dolan who I wish would just haul Isiah off to an island somewhere and make him his butt-monkey already.

Without the Simons, there is no Pacers, so confidence or not, we should be thankful that they stepped up to the plate in the first place.

What else can I say?

While there are alternatives to Donnie and Larry, I don't think there are any alternatives in Indiana to Mel and Herb. It may be due to a PTSD-type reaction, but I deeply fear anything involving the sale of the Pacers.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Why would anyone vote "no" here? No person is infallible, but the Simons deserve the city's thanks on so many levels. they single handedly believed that Indianapolis could turn itself around, and dedicated themselves to that idea for decades.

The city is such a different place than it used to be. It is so much better. So the Pacers have gone downhill for a few seasons. Big deal. The bigger picture is that the city owes the Simons its thanks 1000 times over.

I say again that what we've gone through is not much different than what the Blazers and Bulls have gone through and are still going through.

Recovery is just around the corner, but not if you run the only people who thought your city deserved it's first major sport pro team straight out of town.

Criticism is fine, but getting some perspective is needed here.

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Why would anyone vote "no" here? No person is infallible, but the Simons deserve the city's thanks on so many levels. they single handedly believed that Indianapolis could turn itself around, and dedicated themselves to that idea for decades.

The city is such a different place than it used to be. It is so much better. So the Pacers have gone downhill for a few seasons. Big deal. The bigger picture is that the city owes the Simons its thanks 1000 times over.

I say again that what we've gone through is not much different than what the Blazers and Bulls have gone through and are still going through.

Recovery is just around the corner, but not if you run the only people who thought your city deserved it's first major sport pro team straight out of town.

Criticism is fine, but getting some perspective is needed here.

100% Agree.

Yes They are the owners for this team. They made mistakes, but they can turn them around with the right decisions.

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

The Simons were so concerned with the bottom line that they would not allow Donnie Walsh to re-sign Brad Miller because it would have put them over the cap and thus destroyed what could have been our best front court ever and for that I will never forgive them.

Both of the above are legitimate complaints or compliments but neither are appropriate for this.

Actually, this one is not legitimate. I'll talk to you later.

The question is simple.

Do you believe that the Simons can lead our franchise out of the problems that they are in?

Of course even this question is open to a lot of play because depending on what you view the job of an owner is. I'll let you decide that for yourself.

Also I think it's safe to say that Herb is THE operating owner at this point although we have heard that David Simons either has taken over a lot of the day to day or soon will.

Vote now please.

I think the Simons only get heavily involved if: The luxury tax is in play (doesn't mean they won't pay, just that they need to be convinced it's worth it) or they adamantly disagree with a decision trying to be made by Walsh/Bird.

Considering that view point, along with the fact that they kept the Pacers around, have been willing to let us be one of the biggest spenders in the NBA when we were contending 4 years ago, and everything Los Angeles said, I can only say yes, I have a lot of confidence in Mel/Herb Simon.

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

They've been overly loyal to DW and that's a mistake right now IMO. OTOH they've been very loyal to Indy - maybe overly so there too. Plus they don't interfere too much with basketball decisions - they know they build malls and shopping centers, not basketball teams.

And if you're going to be "overly" something I'd prefer people who are overly loyal to people who are overly fickle.

Unless you're Jim Dolan who I wish would just haul Isiah off to an island somewhere and make him his butt-monkey already.

While I understand everyone willing to fall on their swords for the Simons you have to ask how far will they let the team sink before taking action... or will they let it sink so far that they reach a point where they think the only thing left to do is move or sell the franchise to another city?

As I've said, if the Simons think this team is being operated properly, and if things don't change (which so far they haven't been), then how can they believe anything other than Indy won't support NBA basketball any longer? They can blame the city government... blame the loss of control of the local media... blame the resurgence of IU and Purdue (along with recent Butler successes)... blame the city and state's love affair with the Colts and growing reputation as an NFL town... the loss of interest in basketball at the grassroots level since the inception of class basketball.... etc...

There's just a lot of places they can put the blame if they don't want to look into the mirror.

As said in this thread, the Simons aren't basketball people. They don't appear to have the overwhelming desire to see this team win a championship which has allowed the team to operate with the bar too low for too many years. It's an angle of this whole thing that has allowed Walsh to stay on as long as he has.

Just as it's hard for many players to step away from the game even after it's passed them by, I'm sure it's hard for Walsh. Particularly when the media and fans have given him a pass for so long based on his moves 15-20 years ago.

But how long can you keep giving all these people a pass for being loyal to each other? At what point does someone have to start thinking about being loyal to the fans and city... or even loyal to the NBA and not allowing a franchise to flounder like this and lose fans right and left?

If the people you've hired to operate the team can't fix it, won't fix it, or move so slow via bad moves and no moves that things are snowballing, how long can you sit back and watch before needing to step in the forefront and make a bold move before it's too late?

I think the Simons have allowed a snowball to start building whose end result will be the Pacers leaving Indianapolis. Something has to change to stop that snowball.

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Yes yes we all know the Simons saved the city there is no doubting that, however that does not answer the question of can they get us out of this mess currently.

Also Hicks, I know about the whole Brad thing. I just used that as an example. Remember I was the one who canceled my tickets until I actually heard Herb say he would have paid the luxuary tax if Donnie thought he should have.

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Yes yes we all know the Simons saved the city there is no doubting that, however that does not answer the question of can they get us out of this mess currently.

Also Hicks, I know about the whole Brad thing. I just used that as an example. Remember I was the one who canceled my tickets until I actually heard Herb say he would have paid the luxuary tax if Donnie thought he should have.

I'm trying to stick to the rules....

The Simons can only get us out of this mess now by doing something much differently than they've done in the past. I don't have a high level of confidence that they're willing to do that. IF they continue to hand out votes of confidence to those below them, then we're in trouble. Past history says they will continue to allow those under them to run the franchise in the wrong direction.

It's not been that long ago that one of the Simons was quoted as saying he didn't want to own a team that didn't involve Donnie Walsh (or something similar to that). That's just not a comforting feeling that we're about to rearrange the team goals, develop a new vision for the franchise, and become a player in the 21st century NBA.

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

The Simons can only get us out of this mess now by doing something much differently than they've done in the past. I don't have a high level of confidence that they're willing to do that. IF they continue to hand out votes of confidence to those below them, then we're in trouble. Past history says they will continue to allow those under them to run the franchise in the wrong direction.

It's not been that long ago that one of the Simons was quoted as saying he didn't want to own a team that didn't involve Donnie Walsh (or something similar to that). That's just not a comforting feeling that we're about to rearrange the team goals, develop a new vision for the franchise, and become a player in the 21st century NBA.

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Peck...your original assertion is flawed, it doesn't all end here "at the top".

There is one other....Der Furher....Da Commish....David Stern. Is the Pacer plight tied to the plight of the NBA? Has DS become so enamored with his vision of a Universal NBA that he has let the homeland fall to ruin? I leave it to you to pose that as another question in another thread.

Last edited by indygeezer; 03-04-2008 at 12:24 PM.

If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Yes yes we all know the Simons saved the city there is no doubting that, however that does not answer the question of can they get us out of this mess currently.

Also Hicks, I know about the whole Brad thing. I just used that as an example. Remember I was the one who canceled my tickets until I actually heard Herb say he would have paid the luxuary tax if Donnie thought he should have.

I guess I didn't answer your question - yes they can get us out of this mess -If they don't, and sell the team it will be moved.

Re: Vote of confidence: The Simons

Why should Herb and Mel be pulling us out of anything? That's what they hire people to do. I doubt they confer with Slick or JOB about diminishing mall sales. Hell, if you can't depend on the people you hire what's the point?

Peck, you can't discount the civic aspect of this. They knew they weren't basketball people but they made a major commitment.

I'm sorry, but I don't point the finger at the Simons. I don't point the finger at Bird, I don't point the finger at Walsh. Moves were made that, on paper, were terrific for this franchise. Unfortunately, we had players who diminished their own stock quicker than Enron tying the hands of what could - and more importantly COULD NOT be done.

This has been a proud, respectable franchise that has been victimized by the likes of Artest, Tinsley, Williams, Harrison, Jackson none of whom gave a ***** about TPTB, the coach, the fans, the city. And I'm not above throwing our paper leader under that same bus.

Bball - I disagree with your assessment of the post brawl reaction of the Simons. I think they were livid and vociferous in their protest.

Can the Simons deliver us from this destructive path? Who knows? I say yes. The question is who else is going to do it? That's right - nobody - at least not in this city.

And last but not least, I'm not going to criticize an owner for making attempts to be fiscally responsible. I'm still on the fence about Brad. He was way overpaid on the market. But then, on the other side, we were too quick with Bender, too quick with Tinsley and paying franchise money to a non-franchise player.

Rewards and risks are a two-way street and we have just had too many players wear the mask until payday before revealing themselves.

The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.