I suppose i could throw in some politics since space will get politics no matter how many private enterprises get there first.

So we all know that Bush is not very 'clean' to say the least, but no one stands up to him (and the US) to tell him to do otherwise. We now got all kind of news message stating that Bush wants to detain suspects as long as he sees fits, without a trial. Even when there is no sufficient eveidence for a trial. What does this sound like? Dictatorship? Maybe. Total ludicrous for sure. The article even states further that the US 'allies' have to make sure we live up to the human rights. (come again?)

Excuse me? Did i read that right? My reaction exactly. I haven't find the news message on cnn (yet), but they've shown in the past that they're kinda pro-bush.

Anyway, what do you think of these kind of news messages. Are they for real? Should we take them serious and what can we (or Europe) do about it?

I'd say that with his Dad being a former president and (I think) a son in politics it would be called a Monachy. It must be nice after 200 years of being without a Monach to get one at long last, fortunately we took all the power away from ours I think it would have been a good idea if the American people had done the same with their's.

I think that the UK should be distancing themselves from him and his foreign policies and that he has managed to set back American relations around the globe by at least a decade. By detaining people without trial he is effectively taking hostages and opening the door for fanatics to act in a similar way or worse in response.

I believe the UK should have sided with Europe rather than the US and that Bush is making it increasingly difficult to work with the US on anything, including Space projects. This is seen by the stupid situation with the Russians who want to get something for acting as permanent ferry and supply service for American astronauts. They are not asking for money at the moment but want some of the hours they are due to work on the station transfered to the US as payment and this has not gone down to well. The main obsticle to the Russians being paid it seems is the US's own laws which do not allow them to give money directly to Russia.

_________________A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

I think this is "old" news... and I'm happy to live in belgium Small nations are often more social... and politics is a lot more personal over here... and bussiness is seperated with leadership...

I think except from "economy", the US is far from beeing a world leading country in "human" developments.
Education in the US is terrible compared to the belgium education system.

People also complain over here... for the better... but atleast I'm happy our government is lisening As Bush would say "beautiful example of democracy" and ignores the people (IF they do not have a lot of money )

I think the diffrence between US and northern europ is that the US currently has a "strong" right sided conservative group that promotes creotinism(life created by god) instead of evolution.
If people "think" most actions are chosen by a "god", going to prison is gods will... World Environmental changes... all managed by god.. it's "what" people believe that creates politics...
I respect religion... but I think it should be seperated from law. (gay marriages, abortion(first few weeks) etc should be people's personal choise) and I think most people know bush his ideals about religion

The dark ages is history.. but this isn't the science ages yet .. most people are still far from developed.

We should respect "all people's opinions", as long as none of them harm others or limits others to have their "personal" opinions.
In belgium in poletics we have several parties governing the country at the same time, so a lot of discussions but they "learned" to work toghetter, I think for the US this would be a "very nice" change

Note; I expect other people to respond with diffrent personal opinions on this topic, please accept them with respect. People who're not capable of accepting diffrent opinions, please "ignore" this topic.

The idiots got to elect our leader again. Boy, what a surprise who they picked. If only America could have a leader who could admit when he's wrong and not be a bigot, or at least be able to explain why the Moon's phases occur/balance his checkbook. Not everyone is a trigger-happy moron like W, though, 47% actually voted against him, so please don't think we're all stupid.

_________________"Yes, that series of words I just said made perfect sense!"
-Professor Hubert Farnsworth

Spacedaily had an interesting story on the russia US relationship today and said its falling apart fast! America realy has to watch its self at the second, not wanting to be involved with china and having to pay russia just to get a man to space, seems to be falling behind, i would go as far to say that its lost its foothold it had as the other organisations are just getting one.

Think Bush's vision will fade, it was too much to ask however i feel that given those timescales other private sectors businesses will be ready to go there and do those things

I suppose i could throw in some politics since space will get politics no matter how many private enterprises get there first.

Amen to that.

Stefan wrote:

So we all know that Bush is not very 'clean' to say the least, but no one stands up to him (and the US) to tell him to do otherwise.

Also agreed. Neither the PATRIOT Act (yes, it is an acronym) nor the whole gay-marriage-amendment thing helped the public perception of his intelligence. Please, folks. Keep it civil now.

Stefan wrote:

We now got all kind of news message stating that Bush wants to detain suspects as long as he sees fits, without a trial. Even when there is no sufficient eveidence for a trial. What does this sound like? Dictatorship? Maybe. Total ludicrous for sure. The article even states further that the US 'allies' have to make sure we live up to the human rights.

Unfortunately, I am forced to point out that this is exceptionally old news. The PATRIOT Act essentially gave the FBI the same legal capabilities as the old Soviet KGB -- or, essentially, the same powers that the FBI had back during the peak of J. Edgar Hoover's reign several decades ago. To the best of my knowledge, the FBI can detain any person, US Citizen or no, without any further cause than the suspicion of that person being a terrorist. I actually had in my possession a print copy of the PATRIOT act a few months ago, and then went and lost it. Unfortunately, the document is rather hard to find. Also, please note that the FBI has yet to make use of its new powers. And that a large portion of the citizenry is armed. It's quite likely that if any agency were to detain Citizens for no apparent reason, a civil war would spring up within a few days.

Stefan wrote:

I haven't find the news message on cnn (yet), but they've shown in the past that they're kinda pro-bush.

Not really. The news media in this country, with the exception of public radio and FOX News, is exceptionally Left Wing. (No, I won't say Pro-Liberal, because neither party deserves that name.)

Stefan wrote:

Anyway, what do you think of these kind of news messages. Are they for real? Should we take them serious and what can we (or Europe) do about it?

Europe is not ranked terribly high in public opinion here, at least not in the South (which, I might add, does make up half of the country). The best thing that Europe to do is to stay out of it: it is our business, and it is decidedly not your business (we're exceptionally proud of our independence and self-reliance on this side of the Pond), and we'll take care of it -- for better or worse (this being the standard public opinion). Any attempt to meddle in our national politics will be seen as an infringement of our own sovereignty and is basically -- in our eyes -- just short of an overt act of war. I say in all seriousness that angering the general populace of the lone superpower left on the planet is not a terribly wise idea, especially if someone more adept at propaganda than President Bush comes to power. Bush is not really a threat to Europe (he never has been); however, if given a chance, people who are a threat might find ways to gain office.

Understand that I hold no hostility whatsoever for the European Union; but America -- so far, and despite numerous efforts to the contrary -- is still a fully sovereign nation, and is quite proud of that fact. If any individual wishes to share their ideas with us, they are quite honestly more than welcome to move over here and take part in our time-honored tradition: open and democratic voting. We're still -- and always will be -- the first nation to pull that off.

And, no offense, but no-one on the European Continent has the slightest right to point across the Atlantic and cry dictator. We took our time about it, but we were the ones that rid you of your dictators, gave you democracy, and the left you alone to develop as you pleased.

And how about Gutanamo Bay? How civil is that? It's right you got rid of Europe's dictator half a century ago, but with all do respect, America has no personal problems in Iraq, except for stabilizing oil productions etc. It should be an UN matter, not just America pretending as it should fix everything they messed up in the past. Supporting dictators here, killing them a few decades later (like the taliban). But hey, who are we to judge you ey?

Well, we just live on this miserable planet together. That's why it's our bussenis to.

well this side of the pond thinks:
>Home Office (London, UK) to the People of America
>
>To the citizens of the United States of America, In the light of your
>failure to elect a suitable President of the USA and thus to govern
>yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence,
>effective today. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume
>monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories.
>Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The Right
>Honourable Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been
>unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister
>for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate
>will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to
>determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British
>Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:
>
>
>You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look
>up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at how
>wrongly you have been pronouncing it.
>
>The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and
>'neighbour', skipping the letter 'U' is nothing more than laziness on your
>part. Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half
>the letters.
>
>You will end your love affair with the letter 'Z'(pronounced 'zed' not
>'zee') and the suffix "ize" will be replaced by the suffix "ise".
>
>You will learn that the suffix 'burgh is pronounced 'burra' e.g. Edinburgh.
>You are welcome to respell Pittsburgh as 'Pittsberg' if you can't cope with
>correct pronunciation. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to
>acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven words
>interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an
>unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed".
>
>
>There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not
>old enough to cope with bad language then you shouldn't have chat shows.
>When you learn to develop your vocabulary then you won't have to use bad
>language as often.
>
>There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know on your
>behalf.
>The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the
>reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of "-ize".
>
>You should learn to distinguish the British and Australian accents. It
>really isn't that hard. British accents are not limited to Cockney,
>upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier).
>
>You will also have to learn how to understand regional accents - Scottish
>dramas such as "Taggart" will no longer be broadcast with subtitles. While
>we're talking about regions, you must learn that there is no such place as
>Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon". If you persist in
>calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g.
>Texasshire, Floridashire, Louisianashire.
>
>Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the good
>guys. Hollywood will be required to cast British actors to play British
>characters. British sit-coms such as "Men Behaving Badly" or "Red Dwarf"
>will not be re-cast and watered down for a wishy-washy American audience
>who can't cope with the humour of occasional political incorrectness.
>
>You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but
>only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get confused
>and give up half way through.
>
>You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind of
>football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game.
>The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders
>may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You will no
>longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football.
>Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult
>game.
>
>Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is
>similar to American"football", but does not involve stopping for a rest
>every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We
>are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2005.
>
>You should stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event
>called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of
>America. Since only 2.15% of you are aware that there is a world beyond
>your borders, your error is understandable. Instead of baseball, you will
>be allowed to play a girls' game called "rounders" which is baseball
>without fancy team strip, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs.
>
>You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if they
>give you any merde. The 97.85% of you who were not aware that there is a
>world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky.
>
>The Russians have never been the bad guys.
>
>"Merde" is French for "***".
>
>You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns. You will no longer be
>allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable
>peeler. Because we don't believe you are sensible enough to handle
>potentially dangerous items, you will require a permit if you wish to carry
>a vegetable peeler in public.
>
>July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national
>holiday, but only in Britain. It will be called "Indecisive Day".
>
>All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own
>good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean.
>All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts.
>You will start driving on the left with immediate effect. At the same time,
>you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of
>conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the
>British sense of humour.
>
>You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are
>not real chips. Fries aren't even French, they are Belgian though 97.85% of
>you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware
>of a country called Belgium. Those things you insist on calling potato
>chips are properly called "crisps". Real chips are thick cut and fried in
>animal fat.
>
>The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer, which should be served warm
>and flat.
>
>Waitresses will be trained to be more aggressive with customers.
>
>As a sign of penance 5 grams of sea salt per cup will be added to all tea
>made within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, this quantity to be doubled
>for tea made within the city of Boston itself.
>
>The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at
>all, it is lager. From November 1st only proper British Bitter will be
>referred to as "beer", and European brews of known and accepted provenance
>will be referred to as "Lager".
>
>The substances formerly known as "American Beer" will henceforth be
>referred to as "Near-Frozen Knat's Urine", with the exception of the
>product of the American Budweiser company whose product will be referred to
>as "Weak Near-Frozen Knat's Urine". This will allow true Budweiser (as
>manufactured for the last 1000 years in Ceské Budejovicé a.k.a. Budweis,
>Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.
>
>From December 1st the UK will harmonise petrol (or "Gasoline" as you will
>be permitted to keep calling it until April 1st 2005) prices with the
>former USA.
>The UK will harmonise its prices to those of the former USA and the Former
>USA will, in return, adopt UK petrol prices (roughly $6/US gallon - get
>used to it).
>
>You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers or
>therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows
>that you're not adult enough to be independent. Guns should only be handled
>by adults. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing
>someone or speaking to a therapist then you're not grown up enough to
>handle a gun.
>
>Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.
>
>Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to
>ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776). Thank you
>for your cooperation.

The best thing that Europe to do is to stay out of it: it is our business, and it is decidedly not your business (we're exceptionally proud of our independence and self-reliance on this side of the Pond), and we'll take care of it -- for better or worse (this being the standard public opinion). Any attempt to meddle in our national politics will be seen as an infringement of our own sovereignty and is basically -- in our eyes -- just short of an overt act of war.

I agree it is your problem and Europe should not in anyway get involved with your internal politics. So meddling in other country's politics would be seen as an act of war, I guess that makes the US popular everywhere then.

spacecowboy wrote:

And, no offense, but no-one on the European Continent has the slightest right to point across the Atlantic and cry dictator. We took our time about it, but we were the ones that rid you of your dictators, gave you democracy, and the left you alone to develop as you pleased.

I dont think the UK has had a dictator for a few centuries at least (maybe Oliver Cromwell just about qualified on that count) and I thought Westminster was known as the mother of all parliments. Its nice to know the US left us alone to develop, I mean it was starting to get a bit cramped in those caves, obviously our last 2000 years of development meant very little and only the last 50 years or so are relevant. I'm sure the other European countries are equally grateful for the US showing them what real democracy is all about.

_________________A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

I agree it is your problem and Europe should not in anyway get involved with your internal politics. So meddling in other country's politics would be seen as an act of war, I guess that makes the US popular everywhere then.

Okay, then we'll withdraw our foreign aid to the Tsunami victims in Southeast Asia. We'll let you take up the slack. Check the figures.

By the way, no argument on the Iraq issue -- the problem should've been taken care of years ago, and has been handled rather poorly.

Andy Hill wrote:

I dont think the UK has had a dictator for a few centuries at least (maybe Oliver Cromwell just about qualified on that count) and I thought Westminster was known as the mother of all parliments. Its nice to know the US left us alone to develop, I mean it was starting to get a bit cramped in those caves, obviously our last 2000 years of development meant very little and only the last 50 years or so are relevant. I'm sure the other European countries are equally grateful for the US showing them what real democracy is all about.

So you Brits count yourselves on the Continent now? And as for "real democracy", your Magna Carta actually establishes that the Royal Family is empowered by God Almighty, and the Houses of Parliament exist solely through the Monarch's good graces. You don't have democracy. You still have a monarchy. So, technically, you ain't never had nothin' but a dictatorship, bud. Ditch the "noblity" with their fancy titles, and then maybe we can talk.

***

Also note that the closest that America ever got to a true monarchy is not with the Bush family. It was many years ago, with the Roosevelt dynasty. The second-closest was with the Kennedy family, although the two figureheads (besides old Joe) were rather swiftly killed.

Okay, then we'll withdraw our foreign aid to the Tsunami victims in Southeast Asia. We'll let you take up the slack. Check the figures.

So its some sort of competition now to see who can give aid to those in need is it? I thought it was about helping people who have been really hurt. Guess you'll use the money to buy a few more guns.

spacecowboy wrote:

So you Brits count yourselves on the Continent now? And as for "real democracy", your Magna Carta actually establishes that the Royal Family is empowered by God Almighty, and the Houses of Parliament exist solely through the Monarch's good graces. You don't have democracy. You still have a monarchy. So, technically, you ain't never had nothin' but a dictatorship, bud. Ditch the "noblity" with their fancy titles, and then maybe we can talk.

I cant speak for the rest of Britain but I consider myself European. Magna Carta (now that really is old news) was superseeded by a whole set of laws and rules that took away the Monarch's power and influence until now they are no more than a figure head existing mainly to fill the pages of the tabloid press. I guess we are doing alright if you have to go back nealy a thousand years to find a problem. Seems like we've developed OK, must have been all that non-intervention from the US that helped us out.

spacecowboy wrote:

The second-closest was with the Kennedy family, although the two figureheads (besides old Joe) were rather swiftly killed.

True democracy in action, we still have so much to learn. Excellent way of justifying the American way.

_________________A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Completely OOC, this is the most interesting conversation I've had lately, and one of the most interesting I've had on this board. Now, back on topic......

Andy Hill wrote:

So its some sort of competition now to see who can give aid to those in need is it? I thought it was about helping people who have been really hurt.

No. The point is, although the US has picked a few of its battles somewhat poorly (Vietnam and Iraq are cases), the majority of the conflicts that the country has been in lately are under UN supervision. The UN is politically dominated by its European constituents, while it continually calls on American troops to act as very effective standing targets (especially with those powder-blue helmets) in any situation it actually decides to "intercede" in -- which is usually sometime after the first 50,000 or so people are needlessly executed (Cases in point: Bosnia, Ethiopia, Rwanda.... and the list goes on). Despite the number of our own troops that are deployed under your highly ineffective and extremely dangerous rules of engagement, we continue to send troops to get killed in your commands. And don't compare the figures of the UN "Peacekeeping Operations" with those of Iraq. Iraq was our own decision, and we have to pay the price for it.

On top of that, we give emergency aid to countries that are all but at war with us. We send troops to bring stability to countries that are completely worthless to us. We have no interest there, yet we continue to assist. Despite the fact that (for example) the Southeast Asian countries are at best indifferent and at worst openly hostile to us, we send money and aid workers to your countries when disaster strikes.

If you keep telling us to stop interfering, then watch out: we just might. We still have a rather strong isolationist movement in this country.

Andy Hill wrote:

I cant speak for the rest of Britain but I consider myself European. Magna Carta (now that really is old news) was superseeded by a whole set of laws and rules that took away the Monarch's power and influence until now they are no more than a figure head existing mainly to fill the pages of the tabloid press. I guess we are doing alright if you have to go back nealy a thousand years to find a problem.

Hrm..... So who made those laws? Parliament? (Need I say more?) I'm not completely familiar with British law, so I'd quite honestly appreciate clarification on this point.

Andy Hill wrote:

spacecowboy wrote:

The second-closest was with the Kennedy family, although the two figureheads (besides old Joe) were rather swiftly killed.

True democracy in action, we still have so much to learn. Excellent way of justifying the American way.

I didn't say it was right that they were killed; I simply noted that they were killed before they could have much real impact on our political system.

King John and his Barons signed Magna Carta in 1215 at Runnymead. Basically, as I understand it- and I was an indifferent history student at best, it was a kind of terms of ceasefire between him and them and allowed the church independence of him or anyone else. It also acted as a kind of census so that he knew what he was owed in taxes by everyone. Here endeth my sparce knowledge of the said document and instruction should be sort elsewhere.

Most of our current laws come after we had our own civil war in the mid 17th century, loads of cavaliers and roundheads running around butchering each other with big swords. The sealed knot organisation stage battles today in full costume even though the matter was settled in 1651 when parliment roundheads defeated the King's cavaliers and gained it the right to self governance without interference from the King.

Our government is elected by the population every 4 years or so, and has the right to call an election at any time during their term or if they loose their majority in parliament due to bi-election loses. Bi-elections are caused when an MP (Member of Parliament) either dies, steps down or somehow looses his seat. On rare occations MPs will change parties which may cause an election.

....its a lot more complicated than but that is the basics, if your interested (and I cant believe anyone would be) read up on it or find someone who knows a bit more than I.

now back on topic.

America should ask itself, why in spite of all the money and help it gives to countries is it still almost universally disliked.

I was in Moscow a few years back and I was staggered to find out that there were 17 McDonalds there. How did I know this? There was a huge pile of free tourist Maps in on the hotel desk sponsored by them showing all them with a golden arch. In a country where a burger would have cost a day's wages why so many? They were seen as an infestation and erotion of Russian culture. While there I saw a huge statue (I think it was Peter the great on horseback) with a group of tourists taking photos of it. Every photo marred by the huge 15 foot high billboard behind it advertising Nikon Cameras (the sign was in English showing a beech somewhere with a price in American dollars). It is these things that the ordinary people remember because they see them every day not the money or aid that you give. Allow other's to live without the apple pie and the American dream if they wish to and you will gain a few more friends.

Bush needs to cultivate friendships through understanding not buy them with hard cash. Mostly any government aid comes with strings attached so at a time when they may have very little choice in accepting your aid they are forced to accept everything that goes along with it as well. Most governments are guilty of this but I think the US is a bit more overt.

I mostly agree about the UN sitting on the fence to long in a lot of instances but that still does not give any country the right to go ahead and do what it pleases. I worked for the UK MOD for 20 years and talked to a lot of serving soldiers during that time, on every occation the talk got around to serving along side the American troops they said they were more worried about being shot by them than anyone they were fighting.

Most of these problems are caused by western governments (UK included) selling arms in the first place so we all have a moral obligation to clear the problems up since they are, at least in part, our own making.

_________________A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.