milkyshirt:I am so proud of you guys for not bringing the transgender derp into this thread (yet).

Voters in four states approved marriage equality propositions this week (and one state rejected a bigoted anti-equality one). I suspect the usual derpers are in the hospital for alcohol poisoning / are lying passed out in a pool of their own vomit on the curb next to their local bar.

And some of my best friends are passed out in a pool of their own vomit, so I say that with love.

Thanks for the help, it's just a weird concept that I can't understand. To me, feeling like you're a girl, thinking your a guy- despite having the obvious Equipment seems to be a sign of some sort if denial of reality.

But you know what? As long as they are happy-it's cool! I don't have to understand it!

Part of me used to wonder if the whole homophobia of our culture drove people in believing that they were born in the wrong body. But I guess it's deeper than that! They look in the mirror and sees someone far different than how the feel!

I know that hermaphroditism does exist..and that the recommended path is to wait until they are older to let them choose thei sex.

Aaaaaargh! I can't take it anymore!Every time there's a Mail article at least one of the stories linked at the bottom of the page will show up here the next day.Thing is, I've already read those articles.This has become a circle-jerk of rotundic proportions.How low has fark fallen? Used to be, this place was more on the frontline wave of info influx and now we're in more of a tidal pool that gets flushed when the Moon changes phase.

Thing is, if I left fark, where would I go? Outside? Not on your life.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?

As others have said, those are very different things. I'm gay but I've never wanted to be or felt like I was a woman. I'm a guy who likes guys. Being transgendered is a whole different thing, and can happen to (pre-op) straight people too, so that a man might transition to being a lesbian woman. It's about their self-image rather than their sexual preference.

Also, no, they wouldn't feel that way anyhow because they both would have been gay in their birth genders and wouldn't have been attracted to each other. Arin would have been attracted to women, not a man like Katie, and visa versa.

Darth_Lukecash:Thanks for the help, it's just a weird concept that I can't understand. To me, feeling like you're a girl, thinking your a guy- despite having the obvious Equipment seems to be a sign of some sort if denial of reality.

But you know what? As long as they are happy-it's cool! I don't have to understand it!

Part of me used to wonder if the whole homophobia of our culture drove people in believing that they were born in the wrong body. But I guess it's deeper than that! They look in the mirror and sees someone far different than how the feel!

I know that hermaphroditism does exist..and that the recommended path is to wait until they are older to let them choose thei sex.

There's also stuff like androgen insensitivity syndrome. That one's a real mindfark.

The simple fact is that nature is rarely so clean cut as to give you two obvious and never overlapping binary states.

thecpt:Jz4p: So these two would have the right to marry each other anywhere in the United States, or pretty much anywhere else, wouldn't they?

It seems like a confusing path to find the girl of your dreams, but good for them I guess. The article was kind of long, so I think I missed it: When's the wedding?

wbc would figure out a reason to protest

WBC would protest their mothers so long as they got to keep having sex with cousins and yelling angrily at everyone.

/ I don't think there's anyone outside that small church that they do like.// also: I would be surprised if they were allowed to travel internationally.///I would imagine most countries with turn them away at the border

StopLurkListen:milkyshirt: I am so proud of you guys for not bringing the transgender derp into this thread (yet).

Voters in four states approved marriage equality propositions this week (and one state rejected a bigoted anti-equality one). I suspect the usual derpers are in the hospital for alcohol poisoning / are lying passed out in a pool of their own vomit on the curb next to their local bar.

And some of my best friends are passed out in a pool of their own vomit, so I say that with love.

That's great and all, really it is, but unfortunately there seems to be plenty of bigotry for trans people from people who are also pro-gay. I haven't figured out why. You would think someone who's capable of letting gay people follow their natural preferences would be able to recognize that trans people are trying to do the same thing.

milkyshirt:That's great and all, really it is, but unfortunately there seems to be plenty of bigotry for trans people from people who are also pro-gay. I haven't figured out why. You would think someone who's capable of letting gay people follow their natural preferences would be able to recognize that trans people are trying to do the same thing.

because in their heads its icky or something. And i have seen some really ' we hate them' in comments on queer sites, like towlerroad, by queer folks . And also mainstream sites like huffpo ...i just try to skip them, but sometimes its fun to strike back at the trolls.

trlkly:Seriously, I don't know what you guys are on. She looks female. He looks male. A pretty boy, sure, but definitely male. If they've got the voices down, I doubt anyone could ever tell.

In fact, she is the first non-Asian MTF that I've seen that is actually hot.

It's because of the age at which they started.

A lot of what makes a male-to-female transsexual look masculine is the skeletal structure. The earlier you start on female hormones, the more your body will look like a "normal" woman's body later in life. Especially if you start before puberty. Later in life, especially after age 30, things like your skeleton and Adam's apple are set and can't be changed. Though there are surgeries to "shave" the Adam's Apple and to make the hips and buttocks look more rounded and feminine, I'm not sure how successful they actually are.

I know that for parents of a transgender child, there's a strong inclination to want to wait in case "she changes her mind later" or "it's just a phase," but this is why it's a very good idea to start the process as soon as possible once you know your "son" is really your daughter. If you force her to wait until she's legally an adult to even begin the process, you're condemning her to a MUCH more difficult life afterwards, assuming she really is transsexual and she really will try to live the rest of her life as a woman.

I would assume that most of this holds true for female-to-male transsexuals as well, but I've read less on how that works, so I don't really know.

I have transgender on my team working as a data analyst. A few months before he became she, he was constantly asking the women about their breasts and in general, being really really weird. The HR people got involved and he was three seconds from being fired for sexual harassment, until he blurted out that he was considering a sex change and 'just wanted advice', and his wife wouldn't give it. Suddenly all was forgiven and he was allowed to continue what every else found rather creepy. This is just wrong and not from a 'God will punish' standpoint but from an equality standpoint. Any normal guy just admiring a female employee's boobs would be vilified, but this guy was not. He later became she and insisted on using the lady's room, which further weirded everyone out. I guess my point is that tolerance can some times be a bit one-sided. If I were in his high-heels, I think I would have quit my job and simply started again elsewhere instead of putting fellow employees under pressure. FWIW.

milkyshirt:StopLurkListen: milkyshirt: I am so proud of you guys for not bringing the transgender derp into this thread (yet).

Voters in four states approved marriage equality propositions this week (and one state rejected a bigoted anti-equality one). I suspect the usual derpers are in the hospital for alcohol poisoning / are lying passed out in a pool of their own vomit on the curb next to their local bar.

And some of my best friends are passed out in a pool of their own vomit, so I say that with love.

That's great and all, really it is, but unfortunately there seems to be plenty of bigotry for trans people from people who are also pro-gay. I haven't figured out why. You would think someone who's capable of letting gay people follow their natural preferences would be able to recognize that trans people are trying to do the same thing.

I've talked about this with transgendered people before. I think the issue is three-fold. The first reason is selfish, but a lot of gay people don't like being lumped in with transgendered people. As supportive as we are of rights for all parts of the LGBT, it can be annoying when cisgendered straights assume we're all the same, that gay people are confused about their gender or like to cross-dress, and so forth. It can sometimes seem like the LG would have an easier time if it weren't for the BT. It's stupid, but that's reason one.

Reason two is that transgenderism (if that's the word, I'm not completely sober) is just not very well understood by most people, including gay people. If you're not transgendered it can be very hard to understand what it feels like, and if you are transgendered I imagine it can be very hard to explain. A lot of gay people just don't "get it," or think it's a cop-out on being gay, etc. It doesn't help that in certain countries (Iran) many gay men get sex-changes because it's legal and/or more acceptable to become a woman and be with a man than to be a man with another man. It's silly, especially for gay people who have dealt with stupid prejudice themselves, to think that someone would put up with the kind of bigotry transgendered people deal with without good reason, but people can be silly.

Lastly, and this isn't really a reason for bigotry but a reason bigotry can be perceived, is that the terminology is hard. I've known several transgendered people and the preferred terms and phrasing have been different with each of them. Some get offended if you say they "used to be" whatever gender, but it's the simplest way to describe the situation sometimes. Most dislike the term tranny, but some are okay with it, some insist on using cis-, some hate the word "normal," etc. Even when trying to be sensitive you can put your foot in your mouth at times.

Don't interpret any of this as excuses for bigotry, I'm just trying to explain the thought process a little.

Am I weird for hoping they also made plans in case they ever want to have biological children(harvesting and storing some of her sperm and his eggs before they get too far in the re-assignment therapy and surgery) They would still need to use a surrogate though. Or they could forget the biological route and adopt

phartman:A few months before he became she, he was constantly asking the women about their breasts and in general, being really really weird. The HR people got involved and he was three seconds from being fired for sexual harassment, until he blurted out that he was considering a sex change and 'just wanted advice', and his wife wouldn't give it. Suddenly all was forgiven and he was allowed to continue what every else found rather creepy. This is just wrong and not from a 'God will punish' standpoint but from an equality standpoint. Any normal guy just admiring a female employee's boobs would be vilified, but this guy was not.

The problem with your example is that person you're talking about isn't (and wasn't) a guy, normal or otherwise. She was a woman all along. If you want to talk about her behaviour from an equality standpoint, you have to compare her to "any normal woman just admiring a female employee's boobs" and see where that gets you.

The fact that you consistently refer to her with masculine pronouns illustrates the problem.

So if the guy (formerly a girl) is attracted to a girl (formerly a guy), does that make them technically straight? Because her/his transgender persona is attracted to the opposite sex, but her/his physical self is also attracted to the opposite sex, albeit dressed and made up like the same sex........God, my boner is so confused...

Am I weird for hoping they also made plans in case they ever want to have biological children(harvesting and storing some of her sperm and his eggs before they get too far in the re-assignment therapy and surgery) They would still need to use a surrogate though. Or they could forget the biological route and adopt

No, I thought about that too, but then was like, they're not even adults yet, they probably won't last and shouldn't be worrying about kids yet.

Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.

Tuskan_Roeder:So if the guy (formerly a girl) is attracted to a girl (formerly a guy), does that make them technically straight? Because her/his transgender persona is attracted to the opposite sex, but her/his physical self is also attracted to the opposite sex, albeit dressed and made up like the same sex........God, my boner is so confused...

They are straight. The point of transitioning is that their physical and mental selves are in alignment now, so there is no "transgender persona" vs. "physical self."

brobinson2001:Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.

brobinson2001:Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.

If you're so informed as to what genes humanity will or will not need to survive in the future then I advise that you stop posting and run off to inform the scientific community.

Am I weird for hoping they also made plans in case they ever want to have biological children(harvesting and storing some of her sperm and his eggs before they get too far in the re-assignment therapy and surgery) They would still need to use a surrogate though. Or they could forget the biological route and adopt

A lot of transsexuals don't have reassignment surgery on their genitals. With female-to-male, it's incredibly complicated, and "results" aren't all that great overall.

With male-to-female, they're damn good at making it LOOK female from the outside. However, the pubic bone is kind of in the wrong place, and the possible depth-of-penetration and keeping it "functional" are sometimes problematic. Sometimes it fails and "closes up" in the long run.... So it may NOT actually "work". It's complicated surgery and has risks. Furthermore, some M-F transgendered aren't bothered by having a penis as long as they've got boobs and a female face consistent with their identity.

So... well I really don't care. Not my business to worry about what genitals they have. I only troubled when I'm trying to be formally polite and am approached by a stranger who I wish to address as "Sir" or "Ma'am" and can't figure it out. I can only hope a mannish lesbian has probably been called "sir" before and doesn't think much of it.