1. "it was an earnest statement that I believe you have zero interest in anything that could change your thinking, in response to blue's comment. I believe this long topic is great evidence of that - you repeat the same things over & over, and there is no convincing you otherwise (even though you claim to be open minded)." You are correct sir, I will not chase rabbits in hopes of changing my thinking. The reason I am so stubborn about this is because my thinking is based upon actual experience, to which you can not know anything about. I have experienced it personally on levels that can not be explained, defined, or even researched. My evidence is experiential, and relational. Let me try to put this in a better way. Let's take the act of love making for an example. You can see the pictures, watch the movies, read the stories, and even research it until your heart palpitates, but until you experience the relational expression of love between two people, the book work and research are pointless. What I have been discussing is a RELATIONSHIP, and that's what I've been trying to call your attention to.

2. I no more ignore your "ideas" than you ignore legitimate questions that I've asked you. So would that not be tit for tat? Plate Tectonics is a geology, based upon known sciences, and is ever changing. But because of my relationship with the Creator, why do I need to go to a scientist, when I have access to the one who made it. And so what if I sound foolish to you, I don't need your approval or acceptance to live my life, or have my beliefs. As for the 2000 year old book, that goes back to my comments a page or so back that actually breaks down the translations of said book. Now you also need to mix in that IMPERFECT individuals have read, and learned, and made decisions over the course of that time. Did they always act correctly? No. Have thousands of people died? Yes. In fact, after the 1st Century Church took the "Word" away from the common man, and established what we know to be "religion" today, a class system was created. Those who were "trained" in the use of the Bible, and the rest of us. As an example, let's take a Muslim Cleric who runs his own school. He teaches ignorant, uneducated young men, and can develop them however he wishes, and calls it the will of Allah. That is why so many people have been burned by the church, because the RELATIONSHIP has been replaced by RULES and REGULATIONS.

3. Your atheism is your belief system, and in that system you've become your own god. You rule your domain, and you determine how that will go. However, that is a lie in and of itself, because control is a fallacy that all of humanity struggles with.

4. To your point about Judaism and Muslims, and even some other religions including atheism, people of all sorts are extremely hungry for meaning and relationship. The Muslim faith in and of itself is a religion absent of hope. They serve there entire lives to their god Allah, but there is no assurance of paradise, the decision falls in the hands of Allah. However, "Jesus says I am the way the truth and the life. No one can enter except through me." Man sinned and broke the relationship, the penalty was/is death. But because we are weak and unable to cross the void on our own, God made a way, we just need to accept it. Again, referring to a few pages back, I wanted people in here to know how sorry I was for how the church had hurt them over the years, even Christians, even me I offered my apology for those thoughts and feelings and have done my best to reach out in love. You are correct that AI may not be able to stand toe to toe with you in your sciences, but that of what I'm speaking does not rely upon science. I love your intensity, and your knowledge is impressive, but I will continue to lift you in prayer, because after all if my God is not real, then it's just wasted breath right?

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

September 16th, 2013, 2:07 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

There have been literally hundreds if not thousands of religions and sects over thousands of years, and all sought to understand the meaning of life. And they explained their world through a framework of a creator or gods, who they oftentimes believed had a personal interest in them and relationships with them. I do understand that, but I won't say I'm glad you feel that you do have such a relationship because I don't see any evidence other than your word. And I don't recognize that sincerity as anything more than purely a function of chemical reactions and emotions you're feeling. Just like it has been for all those other religions over time. Trust me - thousands of years ago, there were people saying the exact same thing about Zeus, or Ra, etc. ... and you bet your behind they meant it as sincerely as you do.

Atheism is not a religion. Nor is Agnosticism. They are simply descriptions of people without - or highly doubtful about - superstition and magic. If people tell you they don't have a religion, isn't an amazing insult to say "yes you do"? I think so. I don't have "ideas" or things I believe in any religious sense. Religious people want to frame non-believers as having their own religion - but it isn't true. I am the farthest thing from my own god... what you said there is 100% incorrect. Really, I believe that's just a common excuse/accusation that religious people use to make non-religious appear selfish and make themselves feel better. It just doesn't fit- are YOU selfish because you don't believe in Allah? No. And I'm not selfish because I think your god is just another myth.

No church hurt me. I simply opened my eyes, trusted my reason, and see no value in it ... actually, I see a negative value in it, because when I see other people I know go through religious rituals, blocking & tackling, and checking boxes ... it makes me feel sorry for them.

What do I believe? I believe I'm a conscious organism with relationships to many others like me, and personally and collectively we have a number of goals (to multiply & improve the species, to sustain and protect the species). I don't believe I can control anything other than my own behavior. I do believe there are fairly well-proven frameworks for being a successful individual or group with these kinds of objectives - call them moral frameworks, or common law, or whatever. But there are no needs for any supernatural aspects. And I don't think this condition is even unique to humans - wild animals demonstrate many collective behaviors that are eerily like us. Maybe its because it is in all our DNA.

On the "changing" aspects of science ... again, that's the whole point and what makes the scientific method honest, Vs. any religion. The fact that science continually attempts to dis-prove, re-test and improve & refine its explanations for our world is not an argument against science! And again - you cannot take an entire area of scientific discipline and reject it because some small parts are being newly understood or updated. Overall geological principles are certainly NOT always changing. We overwhelmingly understand it - and that is enough. We know what makes mountains, and continents, and volcanos and earthquakes. There...was... no...great... flood... as described in the book... it is a myth.

Why go to science to understand the world? Because it explains it as accurately as possible, and is always improving that explanation. As opposed to subscribing to the writings from flawed people after centuries of translation of what some historic guy that many believe never actually existed said about how to act properly. And this is a book with many stories that are known to have originated in earlier religious models/stories - so it is more like a greatest hits record than anything.

I share your distaste for most organized religion. At times in my life, I've believed it was probably necessary for some reasons. But after a lot of reflection, I realize that it is not- that the good doesn't outweigh the bad. I won't go into it in detail here - but I'm convinced that even if they were just reduced to the social constructs and collectivism to lift up others, they're still less efficient and effective than we humans would be without them... because the mythological garbage is always there causing inefficiencies and working against instead of for us. Without the myths, we don't hate as much. Instead of the Pope's treasures and expensive Mosques and gi-normous BAC ministries that make silver-tonged media-savvy hypocrites very rich as the expense of people who need the resources more... I believe all those resources and attention could be better deployed to help mankind.

I kind of do think praying for me would be wasted breath ... I think it is kind of an insult to both of us. Just like it will be, when (not if) people post these same arguments over & over again.

September 16th, 2013, 3:49 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Eric,Thank you for being candid! Thank you for being willing to engage, even if it's been somewhat offensive at times. Thank you for being willing to share your views. I understand that there are several here who do not believe as I do, and often I've tried to respond to questions based on what I believe, and what evidence I can provide. You are also correct, that the evidence I provide can only be seen by me because quite honestly, that's the only basis I have to go off of. What I mean is, prior to Jesus I was this, and after I accepted an offer I could not earn, or buy, this is who I am now. There are no 12 steps to relationship, there are no laws they say do this or that. In fact, if you were to mention the 10 commandments, I would let you know that 1. that was issued to the Jews, 2. that's old testament law and has since been replaced by the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus. As for the wasted breath, it's mine to waste, and truthfully you'll never know I'm wasting it, until I tell you, so now I won't tell you. But just know this, that out of 7 billion people in this world, someone cares enough to pray for you, and love you in the Lord. This isn't pride that's speaking, it's genuine concern for you and many others. You see, I am only doing what was done for me. Someone loved me enough to give their life for me, and so I'm choosing to give my life for others. The results aren't mine, and I'll probably never know the end result, but I can hope and I can pray, and these I will do. So please don't be offended, just enjoy the fact that someone you've never met, cares and is willing to demonstrate it.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

September 16th, 2013, 7:42 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

That's cool, I guess. I also care a lot about a lot of people I never met - so that, we have in common.

Imagining this happening thousands of years ago, with nobody around but uneducated, superstitious, primitive people to witness. Imagine the stories they'd tell, and how the events would be embellished over time. Imagine the explanations they would search for and settle upon, to explain it.

Last edited by TheRealWags on September 25th, 2013, 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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September 25th, 2013, 4:56 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Eric,I understand your point, and your reasoning is valid. I can only imagine what people think even now, let alone back then, however, you are looking backwards with 20/20 vision. Because of what we know now, you assume that it is impossible for things to have occurred as they were said to have. What's more is that you are making assumptions based upon your "science" that isn't entirely true.

For example: When Jesus was crucified, died, and then rose again there are things we know about this event alone that can not be discredited. 1. The stones rolled in place were large and weighed tons, 2. Roman guards were placed outside of this tomb, 3. Political Prisoners had their tombs sealed in wax and marked with a signat ring, opening them was penalty of death per Ceaser. So the fact that the tomb was empty clarifies that He rose. Not only that, but there were scores if not hundreds of witnesses that were recorded in Scripture, to have seen him; but not only Him, but several others rose as well. Scientifically this isn't possible, but Spiritually it is.

I think our biggest struggle (yours and mine) is that we are speaking two different langauges. Yours is physical and scientific, mine is Spiritual and relational. This is why I asked if the Spiritual can be defined by Science, or even investigated. As my basis for that question I looked up one particular investigation on ESP to see if that qualified.

To your point about Scientific study, didnt Einstein claim that humanity only uses a very small portion of their brain's power? Now please don't go extra terrestial on me, but there are 3 parts to every human. Mind, Body and Spirit. I tried to google some stuff on it, but it leads to different ministry speak which I don't believe you'll look at nor appreciate. So I'll do my best to give you a general breakdown. Body is the physical representation of humanity; what we see, feel, and touch. The Mind is the emotional home of our brain, and is subject to the physical and can be controlled or influenced by the physical. The Soul is the eternal part of mankind. It is separate from the other three only in it's eternal state, but is still an active participant in the whole man.

1st Century Christianity understood this concept much better than present day, and dealt with it in a much more effective manner. However, as soon as the leadership of the church began to control the thinking, and actions of the body by removing the word and creating our present church systems, the relationship with God was affected. In a since it was a power and authroity grab. Pastors, Bishops, Priests saw the financial benefits of having people come to them for explanation, and receiving forgiveness and so on. Attach a price and you have a very well funded church. The current Catholic system is a very good representation of this. They have beautiful rituals, and traditions, and gorgeous churches, but the relationship with God through Jesus has been put on the back burner. Now you have mere mortals doing the work of God in heaven. Mary supposedly being the "mother of God" because she bore Jesus into this world. That's like saying the screw driver is the god of the screw, because it was the tool used to embed it into the wood. We bear the likeness of God in our bodies, male and female, and for God to rectify the blood penalties of Gensis 3, a perfect blood offering was called for. So God, seeing that man could not cross the chasm of sin, came to Earth as a child, through a female participant. Please be careful and don't impart human breeding standards upon God, the only thing He needed to do was speak it, and it happened, there was no exchange of fluids necessary for this to occur. I don't want to carry this too much further because I don't want to offend anyone, or tune you out. I'll just say that just because something is unbelievable, doesn't mean it's not true. Science, in its own right says the same thing. That's unbelievable, now let's try to prove it. In truth, there are mountains of evidence that prove intelligent design, but because this potentially leads to a creator it isn't a welcomed thought process. So instead of looking at the larger picture as a whole, we tend to break it down into smaller sizes so that we don't have to see the total picture, just what it is that we choose to look at.

Thank you for posting this, as I was looking for information on the island just yesterday. Thank you for continuing to ask questions or put your thoughts out there. I hope that we can someday look back on this and see how difficult but beautiful the journey was in coming to an understanding. Keep seeking brother, the answer is out there, and He's waiting for you to reachout to Him.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

Eric,I understand your point, and your reasoning is valid. I can only imagine what people think even now, let alone back then, however, you are looking backwards with 20/20 vision. Because of what we know now, you assume that it is impossible for things to have occurred as they were said to have. What's more is that you are making assumptions based upon your "science" that isn't entirely true.

For example: When Jesus was crucified, died, and then rose again there are things we know about this event alone that can not be discredited. 1. The stones rolled in place were large and weighed tons, 2. Roman guards were placed outside of this tomb, 3. Political Prisoners had their tombs sealed in wax and marked with a signat ring, opening them was penalty of death per Ceaser. So the fact that the tomb was empty clarifies that He rose. Not only that, but there were scores if not hundreds of witnesses that were recorded in Scripture, to have seen him; but not only Him, but several others rose as well. Scientifically this isn't possible, but Spiritually it is.

I think our biggest struggle (yours and mine) is that we are speaking two different langauges. Yours is physical and scientific, mine is Spiritual and relational. This is why I asked if the Spiritual can be defined by Science, or even investigated. As my basis for that question I looked up one particular investigation on ESP to see if that qualified.

To your point about Scientific study, didnt Einstein claim that humanity only uses a very small portion of their brain's power? Now please don't go extra terrestial on me, but there are 3 parts to every human. Mind, Body and Spirit. I tried to google some stuff on it, but it leads to different ministry speak which I don't believe you'll look at nor appreciate. So I'll do my best to give you a general breakdown. Body is the physical representation of humanity; what we see, feel, and touch. The Mind is the emotional home of our brain, and is subject to the physical and can be controlled or influenced by the physical. The Soul is the eternal part of mankind. It is separate from the other three only in it's eternal state, but is still an active participant in the whole man.

1st Century Christianity understood this concept much better than present day, and dealt with it in a much more effective manner. However, as soon as the leadership of the church began to control the thinking, and actions of the body by removing the word and creating our present church systems, the relationship with God was affected. In a since it was a power and authroity grab. Pastors, Bishops, Priests saw the financial benefits of having people come to them for explanation, and receiving forgiveness and so on. Attach a price and you have a very well funded church. The current Catholic system is a very good representation of this. They have beautiful rituals, and traditions, and gorgeous churches, but the relationship with God through Jesus has been put on the back burner. Now you have mere mortals doing the work of God in heaven. Mary supposedly being the "mother of God" because she bore Jesus into this world. That's like saying the screw driver is the god of the screw, because it was the tool used to embed it into the wood. We bear the likeness of God in our bodies, male and female, and for God to rectify the blood penalties of Gensis 3, a perfect blood offering was called for. So God, seeing that man could not cross the chasm of sin, came to Earth as a child, through a female participant. Please be careful and don't impart human breeding standards upon God, the only thing He needed to do was speak it, and it happened, there was no exchange of fluids necessary for this to occur. I don't want to carry this too much further because I don't want to offend anyone, or tune you out. I'll just say that just because something is unbelievable, doesn't mean it's not true. Science, in its own right says the same thing. That's unbelievable, now let's try to prove it. In truth, there are mountains of evidence that prove intelligent design, but because this potentially leads to a creator it isn't a welcomed thought process. So instead of looking at the larger picture as a whole, we tend to break it down into smaller sizes so that we don't have to see the total picture, just what it is that we choose to look at.

Thank you for posting this, as I was looking for information on the island just yesterday. Thank you for continuing to ask questions or put your thoughts out there. I hope that we can someday look back on this and see how difficult but beautiful the journey was in coming to an understanding. Keep seeking brother, the answer is out there, and He's waiting for you to reachout to Him.

Intelligent Design is not welcome in the science world because it's not testable, not because it leads to a creator. I'm sure there are a large amount of real scientists that would jump at the chance to prove there is a god because it would change the world, but they don't try because there is no way to test the theory. Intelligent Design requires science to accept the supernatural without evidence or the ability to test the supernatural. Every time you bring up some form of creationism you always say it's being held back without valid reason or by some sort of conspiracy, but that is not true. Science has a methodology that it has to follow and creationism and it's offshoots all require that methodology to be broken to be valid. That's the reason science doesn't except them.

September 26th, 2013, 12:20 pm

njroar

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 2833

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

The problem with creationism isn't science... it's the vocal minority that publish the crazy stuff that doesn't matter anyway, and try to push that as the facts. It overshadows the entire thing. It also doesn't help that you have the anti-god crowd that will consistently push non-proven ideas from science as fact that creation is impossible. There are way too many unanswered questions, it's faith in both that drive the animosity between the two.

I love science. I also believe in creation, but I don't discount science because of it. Earth can be billions of years old and still have been created. Same with the universe. The argument is silly really, since neither proves or disproves the other. It's an argument just for the sake of having one by two factions that just want to scream "I'm right," "No, I am."

As for proving God, science can't. It brings greater understanding to the mysteries and it explains how thing happen, but very rarely does science ever explain why. And I'll never understand why the religious sects stand so against evolution. Everything changes and adapts. How many things science believed was true was later found out differently. It evolves too. Science is based on what you can prove... so it's beliefs won't ever align with faith. It will always have things that can't be explained. Evolution explains a lot about the world we live in. That doesn't mean you have to accept that we came from apes. Even if many believe it, it's never been proven. Mice are just as similar in DNA to modern humans as Apes are. That only proves we're all made of the same things. Don't discount the entire idea just because some believe the tiny human aspect of it, doesn't match your religious beliefs. Science has to try to explain things with things that are known. It's not science if it doesn't. It's really that simple. Science and religion aren't compatible not because they disagree, but because they have different requirements.

Science can prove aspects of the Bible as true, and it does regularly, i.e. The splitting of the Red Sea. Science could never prove the creation because it would only prove methods used, which wouldn't point to an outside source anyway. Science can prove and understand how the entire cycle of life works, pregnancy, birth, death, etc.. but science won't ever be able to understand how it all started. Science doesn't deal with the abstract. It's the old chicken and the egg question on an entirely different level. It's a debate that lives outside the realm of both that will never be known until it's too late to matter to anyone else but you.

September 26th, 2013, 1:56 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

NJ, Actually from things I've heard from the likes of Dr. Benjamin Scripture, and noted scientist, zoologist, and someother gist there is actually a "worm" on the bottom of the ocean that has been recently discovered and aged to several thousand years old in its current genetic form, that has not mutated or changed. I already know that I'm speaking out of turn because I don't know the lingo, and probably didn't say it right, but it was reported by him. Having said that, I tried to go back and find it, and I am unable to, which stinks because there goes my credibility, if i had any.To my point earlier, God is SPIRIT, and there isn't any way to define or determine spiritual. It's like trying to capture the wind. As for evolution, the main discussion point I've tried to use is where is all the mid level fossil records. We have 100 billion years from single cell to present (I'm being facetious) and yet we don't have clear, documented, skeletal records that prove this evolved from that. We can find all types of other things, but so far we haven't been able to locate the in betweens. And, in the absence of the in betweens, evolution has been determined as definitive based upon supposition. We assume man came from Apes, but yet the genetic codes don't prove that. However, on the flip side, genetic codes from the woman, do prove that mankind has originated from a single birth mother. Again, the items are highly contentious, and you have the bickering you discussed. If I were to mention facts, then you mention your facts and now we have a fact war going on. But the thing about facts is that they obscure the truth. So some things have be be believed in by faith.And that I think is the rub, because a lot of people are "I'll believe it when I see it," but you can't see Spirit. It's a difficult leap. That's why I've recently tried to stay away from arguments because it does more to harm and push people away than it does any good. All I know is my own personal experience. This is who I was before Jesus Christ, and this is who I am now. My hope is that the difference will be stark enough to catch someone's eye, and they'll allow me to make the introduction. That's all....

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

September 26th, 2013, 2:37 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

I also wanted to share an observation that's of a little different note. a few years ago, a joint Chinese/Turkish expedition launched a youtube video showing what they claimed to be the remians of Noah's Ark. In years prior, Mt. Ararat has been declared a military training zone, where a particular area of the mountain has been designated as a aircraft bombing training zone. Now the Conspiracy Theorist in me says that the Turks are trying to destroy evidence reported long ago of a wooden ship like structure on that mountain. IF that structure were there, that authenticates the Noah's flood story. So why is it that we can not find out definitively on things like this? Is there a fear in authenticating Biblical stories? What does that do to humanity if it's proven true? or False?

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

September 26th, 2013, 2:42 pm

njroar

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 2833

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

The mid-level fossil records are exactly why I say they can guess, but it falls short of scientific theory. But this is where the focus is again on humanity instead of the world overall. Evolution is about everything, and the human aspect of it is miniscule in scope, because it only goes back the last 30,000 years compared to the billions that are thought to exist.

As to the worm, it makes sense. Change and adaptation usually happens when it's necessary. We as humans learn don't we? Well most of us lol. It's amazing to look out at the species and notice how many have changed very little over the years, while some change rather quickly when need arises, like amphibians changing sex when there's a shortage of one or the other.

The intricacies of these things make me believe in an intelligent design, more than luck of the draw. But that's faith, not science. If I only viewed science, you'd have to discount it.. but I choose to believe in both.

September 26th, 2013, 4:43 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

It's an interesting perspective, and I like it. I won't even begin to claim the smarts necessary to banter back and forth one way or the other. the best I can do is share who I was then, and who I am now. The difficulty in this environment, is that our conversations are all type written and so there really isn't any real relationship formed. It would be different if we were able to have the history of meeting together on a regular basis so that noted changes could be seen physically. But I'll take what I can get and do the best I can with it. Besides, I'm trusting more in prayer than in my own abilities anyway.

Some time back I brought up a fossilized human foot print that is actually fossilized inside a dinosaur track somewhere in Texas. They've tested both for "carbon dating" or whatever it is, and found that they were done at the same time, when both were treading on mud. That mud has since become rock. I thought that was interesting, and I know that the book of Job which is the oldest book of the Bible speaks of water born "creatures" and land going creatures, quite possibly dragons as well. Both seem surreal, but interesting none the less.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

It's an interesting perspective, and I like it. I won't even begin to claim the smarts necessary to banter back and forth one way or the other. the best I can do is share who I was then, and who I am now. The difficulty in this environment, is that our conversations are all type written and so there really isn't any real relationship formed. It would be different if we were able to have the history of meeting together on a regular basis so that noted changes could be seen physically. But I'll take what I can get and do the best I can with it. Besides, I'm trusting more in prayer than in my own abilities anyway.

Some time back I brought up a fossilized human foot print that is actually fossilized inside a dinosaur track somewhere in Texas. They've tested both for "carbon dating" or whatever it is, and found that they were done at the same time, when both were treading on mud. That mud has since become rock. I thought that was interesting, and I know that the book of Job which is the oldest book of the Bible speaks of water born "creatures" and land going creatures, quite possibly dragons as well. Both seem surreal, but interesting none the less.

Those "human" footprints were found to be the footprint of another dinosaur and the others that were found were proven to be carved by hoaxers. Creationism tries to hard to find things to prove it's right instead of just trying to find the correct answer. There really is no valid evidence to show creationism is valid, Intelligent Design has some interesting ideas, but is often crushed under the weight of creationist trying to prove their ideas that it can't be broken down and looked at in a serious way.

September 27th, 2013, 10:35 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9589Location: Dallas

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

But the thing about facts is that they obscure the truth.

Haven't been in this thread for a long time, but I see WE4C is still at it...

Funny, facts reveal the truth not the opposite my friend - that is unless you have an "obscured" version of the truth...

The arguments of science are crushed by the weight of lack of science when it comes to creation also. Remember, science requires that something can be tested and repeated in order to be proven. Science can not create life, so it's not something that is proven by either side. Hence it's an argument that can't be won. Science is in the blind, just as we are blind to what happened back then.

Yes, people who believe in creation rely on blind faith about what happened. But don't try to say science has crushed any ideas of it being possible, because science can't reach a determination of facts either. Science can't and won't rely on blind faith to state an opinion, which is what most anti-creationist believers regurgitate and claim it's science.

And WFC, when you hear stories like the footprints that sound amazing, look around to see that other publications (legitimate ones) acknowledge the findings as well. The sources of the stories aren't always the best. I make sure to read multiple versions of the same story even for current news that is being covered by everyone.