Actually....considering China (and much of Asia) is going full steam ahead with 5G rollout...it makes one wonder if they will 'accidentally' interfere with aging American tech, like those aforementioned weather satellites.

No, and even if they are stupid enough to use the 23.8 Ghz band, which they are probably not, it's only going to interfere with weather forecasting over China, since that's where they would place the telecoms towers.

There are other way to mess with satellites, and it's being done all the time. in the grand scheme of things, deliberately making it harder to detect weather is just stupid, no matter why or how, it's just stupidity.

I still don't get trying to use these frequencies terrestrialy. Some are fine for satellites, but I've also read that there's some contention with C-band folks.

Can we just not with these bands? It really seems like not very many people are that excited about using them outside of a handful of people who seem interested that there's some chance it can kind of do things sometimes with perfect line of sight (which is why they're great for satellite).

Once again for the reading impaired. 5G in general is not an issue. Putting 5G transmissions at the otherwise quiet 24 GHz is a problem. Funny thing even China isn't stupid enough to blind their own weather sats by deploying 5G networks at 24 GHz.

I'm sure no-one considered the fact that weather measurements use 23.8 GHz and there is a 200 MHz guard band to prevent contamination with the 5G spectrum which is actually from 24.25 to 27.5 GHz and that such contamination can in fact be quantified quite precisely...

Yeah and the actual experts at NOAA and the US Navy who have seen interference in the past are saying that is insufficient. Cheap consumer grade transmitters are going to leak past it into the critical 23.8 GHz frequency.

Again, that is very easily measured before issuing the FCC compliance certification. Which examples of interference are you citing?

Honest to God...

From the very article you are commenting on:

Quote:

The Navy memo recommends asking the FCC to "tighten out-of-band interference by reducing bleed-over limits to -57dB." The memo also says the Navy should "work with NOAA and NASA to continually assess and quantify actual impacts" and develop mitigations including "limited use of other channels, substitution of lesser-fidelity parameters, and the development of new techniques and algorithms through new research and development."

Why do you guys keep doing this? There should be a special double downvote category for "Obviously didn't even read the article you are commenting on."

And it makes a big boxing glove shoot out of the monitor.

*BIFF*

It's not just satellites, either. There are a lot of ground-based sensors that do the same kind of water vapor measurements. Part of my job is to monitor data flow from them is various parts of the world. If I remember correctly, they use three frequencies; 23.8, 30, and 89, GHz. Some of the people that run these instruments were less than thrilled when we were looking at Ubiquity 24 GHz Air Fiber radios. What they, the instruments, are listening for is such a faint signal, compared to a local radio, that they get overloaded by the nearby transmitter. Or so I am told by the researchers. We stuck with 5.8GHz radios.

Those can all be fixed with upgraded filter sets.

When they started lightning up 4G on 2180, there was a small cadre of people flying around the US replacing filter sets in systems that we're getting overloaded. Like, red eye national emergency flights to get systems up and running again.

No one wants to upgrade old systems....until they are forced to, there's no budget for it.[/quote]

If only money could be forced to grow on trees. It seems to me that giving up a bit of spectrum for science is going to benefit far more people than it would if used for wireless data.

The Navy is not beholden to FCC regulations, correct? They can basically do whatever they want? Could they just go full Scorched Earth on this? Issue a notice that anywhere they detect significant bleed over into spectrum critical to national defense, they put up their own transmitters in band, sufficiently overpowering and well characterized as to allow those meteorological satellites to continue to operate. Tampering or otherwise inhibiting the proper operation of those transmitters would be considered an act of treason, and punishable through military tribunals outside of the court systems. Basically, scare anyone who might purchase it away from doing so.

it's amazing how many "5G bad" stories have appeared, with everything from health effects, to poor performance, to security to weather. On the plus side, Huawei goods are not flooding into the country...

I don't think that that's the case. I'm far from an expert on 5G and have learned a lot from reading the likes of Statistical's (and others whose usernames just haven't stuck in my head - so no disrespect!) posts in the 5G threads but I think that the criticism is not of 5G, the standard, but of the use, and vast overhyping, of the practical capabilities of millimeter wave band communications as if that were synonymous with 5G. I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong about this, but I presume that the reason that all these mm wave bands are presently available is because they really aren't very good for communications purposes. In the case of mobile phones, I don't think bands that are line-of-sight and won't penetrate pretty much anything, including fog and water vapor, are going to deliver the communications revolution that many are promising. 5G overall, if I am understanding correctly, is very nice and will provide advantages throughout the existing mobile spectrum - so yay 5G - but these super-high bandwidths and claims of revolution being thrown around just don't look practically realizable to me outside of some pretty limited physical circumstances. And that is what I have been taking away from the articles and knowledgeable posters in the threads following those articles.

The MM band stuff in 5g isn't completely useless but you do have to understand it's limitations and where it could work. It isn't going to be a replacement for the standard low/mid/high bands that we already use for cellphone and 5g does in fact work on those bands and does offer incremental improvements over 4g used in those bands.

MM band is going to be limited by lower range, little to no penetration of objects so isn't going to be usable for your general coverage. It will however likely see usage for replacing the "last mile" for home internet service. Put up a tower with MM band 5G and install an antenna on the roof with line of sight to it and you can have a pretty decent home internet service. It will also likely see usage for cell phones in high density environments like stadiums, convention centers, subways, inside casinos, etc. Locations where carriers already deploy various forms of small to really small cells already using existing frequencies. Deploying a pico or femto cell with MM band 5G does make sense. For at least the immediate future these small cells will still also include the standard bands because phones are just barely starting to support MM band 5G but you do have the potential to have a lot more bandwidth available in area's where you have tons of people crowded together.

The saddest part about this is that the states that are going to be most affected by poor forecasts for major flooding events will be largely Republican-leaning areas. I imagine lot of poor folk who are too far out to benefit from 5G will be impacted with floods we didn't see coming. The biggest floods we have had recently, for example were in:

TexasAlabamaLouisianaFloridaIowaMissouri

i.e., all "red" states.

And yet, they will, no doubt, vote against their interests again in 2020.

To too many Republican voters, it doesn't matter how much abstract suffering they have to endure as long as women stay in their place in the kitchen and are forced to keep their unwanted fetuses; black people and other non-whites understand they are second-class citizens; gay people go back in the closet; and the non-Christians keep their religion to themselves (as only the Christians are allowed to proselytize).

We have to understand that those things I listed are their interests. I personally know people who, during a heated discussion on abortion, admitted they would elect Hitler as long as he was anti-abortion. One can say that at least these people have some principles, even if those principles are short-sighted, cruel, and ultimately self-defeating.

Pai, on the other hand, has only one apparent principle: self-promotion at all costs. When he receives a highly-paid position or lobbyist consultancy at some telecom in the near future, will anyone be surprised?

I would like to think that when NASA and NOAA and the U.S. Navy all express concerns about a government agency policy, the people in charge would pay attention. Then, I remember who occupies the White House, and I look at the calendar to remind myself of the number of days left in his Presidency.

Sorry to break it to the Republican haters, but this kind of thing has been going on for a while now, and not just with the current fuck-wit in the FCC chairmanship.

When mega money interests enter the scene and start encroaching on already allocated bands those that already have exclusive use end up getting moved aside to "secondary" use category because it's too much of a pain to tell the encroachers that they screwed the pooch and have to spend millions of dollars to fix their previously illegally transmitting equipment (all too often these are US companies under FCC jurisdiction already - better to ask forgiveness than to obey the law).

For recent examples that happened in previous administratons: It happened with 72 GHz band with self driving cars and their sensor units under Wheeler(!). It was allocated on a primary basis to amateur radio. Amateur radio was forced to bend over and move to secondary basis. It happened in the 10 meter band with offshore beacons, again, encroaching on amateur radio which has primary use of the band. Elsewhere in the world it's a problem with 40 meters with commercial short wave broadcasts. All up and down the high frequency bands in commercial broadcast bands as well with what's called over-the-horizon-radar stations.

Sure Pai is screwing over everyone he can manage to in order to let monied interests take over the public air waves. That should be called out. It should be stopped. But to make like this only just started with THIS administration and with Pai is just plain ignorant of history and historical FCC policies. Course, he's obviously got some balls to fuck up weather forecasting, but I highly doubt enough Congressmen will get their heads out of their asses to do something about it... without making the problem worse.

If only someone would drain the swamp. Appointing people who used to work in the industry to regulate the industry is a road to regulatory capture.

And, actually, viewed in that light, Pai is not as bad as many, since he hasn't worked at Verizon since 2003. It's unlikely that any law intended to stop the revolving door between industry and regulators would have stopped him from being appointed.

You wouldn't know that from his actions, of course.

It's pretty obvious to me that, in fact, he DOES still work for Verizon.

Given that Huawei is in the doghouse and there is a shortage of end-to-end domestic 5G providers, we're going to be subjected to an endless series of articles explaining how crappy it is, how it interferes with national security, how it disrupts weather satellites etc.

One wonders why the Chinese are even bothering...

Once again for the reading impaired. 5G in general is not an issue. Putting 5G transmissions at the otherwise quiet 24 GHz is a problem. Funny thing even China isn't stupid enough to blind their own weather sats by deploying 5G networks at 24 GHz.

I'm sure no-one considered the fact that weather measurements use 23.8 GHz and there is a 200 MHz guard band to prevent contamination with the 5G spectrum which is actually from 24.25 to 27.5 GHz and that such contamination can in fact be quantified quite precisely...

Yeah and the actual experts at NOAA and the US Navy who have seen interference in the past are saying that is insufficient. Cheap consumer grade transmitters are going to leak past it into the critical 23.8 GHz frequency.

To be clear the sats aren't communicating at 23.8 GHz. They have sensors tuned to 23.8 GHz because it is a frequency with amazing properties for creating a proxy on how much water vapor is in the atmosphere. So when cheap consumer devices start leaking outside their band into the frequency sensed by weather sats they will see that noise as additional water vapor.

I mean it isn't some libtard making this up. It is the friggin US Navy who considers weather forecasting to be pretty damn critical to doing their job.

Once again for the reading impaired. 5G in general is not an issue. Putting 5G transmissions at the otherwise quiet 24 GHz is a problem. Funny thing even China isn't stupid enough to blind their own weather sats by deploying 5G networks at 24 GHz.

I'm sure no-one considered the fact that weather measurements use 23.8 GHz and there is a 200 MHz guard band to prevent contamination with the 5G spectrum which is actually from 24.25 to 27.5 GHz and that such contamination can in fact be quantified quite precisely...

Yeah and the actual experts at NOAA and the US Navy who have seen interference in the past are saying that is insufficient. Cheap consumer grade transmitters are going to leak past it into the critical 23.8 GHz frequency.

Again, that is very easily measured before issuing the FCC compliance certification. Which examples of interference are you citing?

Honest to God...

From the very article you are commenting on:

Quote:

The Navy memo recommends asking the FCC to "tighten out-of-band interference by reducing bleed-over limits to -57dB." The memo also says the Navy should "work with NOAA and NASA to continually assess and quantify actual impacts" and develop mitigations including "limited use of other channels, substitution of lesser-fidelity parameters, and the development of new techniques and algorithms through new research and development."

Why do you guys keep doing this? There should be a special double downvote category for "Obviously didn't even read the article you are commenting on."

And it makes a big boxing glove shoot out of the monitor.

*BIFF*

It's not just satellites, either. There are a lot of ground-based sensors that do the same kind of water vapor measurements. Part of my job is to monitor data flow from them is various parts of the world. If I remember correctly, they use three frequencies; 23.8, 30, and 89, GHz. Some of the people that run these instruments were less than thrilled when we were looking at Ubiquity 24 GHz Air Fiber radios. What they, the instruments, are listening for is such a faint signal, compared to a local radio, that they get overloaded by the nearby transmitter. Or so I am told by the researchers. We stuck with 5.8GHz radios.

Those can all be fixed with upgraded filter sets.

When they started lightning up 4G on 2180, there was a small cadre of people flying around the US replacing filter sets in systems that we're getting overloaded. Like, red eye national emergency flights to get systems up and running again.

No one wants to upgrade old systems....until they are forced to, there's no budget for it.[/quote]

You can't put a filter on the receiver that will fix this. I will say it again, the only fix is on the transmitter side. The transmissions will literally dwarf the background microwaves and make it impossible to get any accurate readings. The signals these receivers are picking up are already at the noise floor. You can't put a filter on the sound of a pin drop and hear it over death metal cranked to the max and that's the equivalent of what you would be trying to do. The microwaves they are listening to are natural phenomenon, they are not being transmitted by a transmitter, so any other signal will simply squash them. A strong signal would be interpreted as more moisture. There would be no way to separate it.

Your going to have entire areas that you would now have to go back and remove the data to prevent it from damaging your forecasting models and you would have to create new models that would have to work without large areas being part of the data.

I mean it isn't some libtard making this up. It is the friggin US Navy who considers weather forecasting to be pretty damn critical to doing their job.

But that would be the libtard side of the Navy. The Republican side would lose ships and planes to the weather and call it "completely unforeseeable" and "God's will;" and then ask for more defense spending to replace them.

Given that 5G can work on a variety of frequencies potentially hundreds of different bands from 600 MHz to 70 GHz the 23.8 Ghz band is one of a handful of critical frequencies needed by instruments gathering data for weather forecasting this seems like a no brainer. It isn't like the weather sats can just use another frequency.

Of course this is the Trump FCC and selling off the 24 GHz band might let the carriers make a few extra dollars in the short term so fuck accurate weather forecasting the CEO of Verizon needs his fifth yacht.

Is it too much to hope that their yachts fall victim to bad forecasting caused by their own decisions?

Well, they would be, but we all know that "satellites" aren't real and are just part of NASA's globe-earth deception to trick the public into drinking fluoridated water and poisoning their precious bodily fluids...

If only someone would drain the swamp. Appointing people who used to work in the industry to regulate the industry is a road to regulatory capture.

And, actually, viewed in that light, Pai is not as bad as many, since he hasn't worked at Verizon since 2003. It's unlikely that any law intended to stop the revolving door between industry and regulators would have stopped him from being appointed.

And yet another example in the exhibit hall of "the two sides are not the same". Two Dem senators are the ones (only ones?) concerned, Pai's GOP majority in the FCC is doing its usual ramming through telco profits, anything to further the kleptocracy.

The Navy is not beholden to FCC regulations, correct? They can basically do whatever they want? Could they just go full Scorched Earth on this? Issue a notice that anywhere they detect significant bleed over into spectrum critical to national defense, they put up their own transmitters in band, sufficiently overpowering and well characterized as to allow those meteorological satellites to continue to operate. Tampering or otherwise inhibiting the proper operation of those transmitters would be considered an act of treason, and punishable through military tribunals outside of the court systems. Basically, scare anyone who might purchase it away from doing so.

No, that won't work. They need to turn off the offending transmitters.

Sorry to break it to the Republican haters, but this kind of thing has been going on for a while now, and not just with the current fuck-wit in the FCC chairmanship.

When mega money interests enter the scene and start encroaching on already allocated bands those that already have exclusive use end up getting moved aside to "secondary" use category because it's too much of a pain to tell the encroachers that they screwed the pooch and have to spend millions of dollars to fix their previously illegally transmitting equipment (all too often these are US companies under FCC jurisdiction already - better to ask forgiveness than to obey the law).

For recent examples that happened in previous administratons: It happened with 72 GHz band with self driving cars and their sensor units under Wheeler(!). It was allocated on a primary basis to amateur radio. Amateur radio was forced to bend over and move to secondary basis. It happened in the 10 meter band with offshore beacons, again, encroaching on amateur radio which has primary use of the band. Elsewhere in the world it's a problem with 40 meters with commercial short wave broadcasts. All up and down the high frequency bands in commercial broadcast bands as well with what's called over-the-horizon-radar stations.

Sure Pai is screwing over everyone he can manage to in order to let monied interests take over the public air waves. That should be called out. It should be stopped. But to make like this only just started with THIS administration and with Pai is just plain ignorant of history and historical FCC policies. Course, he's obviously got some balls to fuck up weather forecasting, but I highly doubt enough Congressmen will get their heads out of their asses to do something about it... without making the problem worse.

I'm sorry but it isn't hard to argue that something else should have priority over amateur radio.

Sorry to break it to the Republican haters, but this kind of thing has been going on for a while now, and not just with the current fuck-wit in the FCC chairmanship.

When mega money interests enter the scene and start encroaching on already allocated bands those that already have exclusive use end up getting moved aside to "secondary" use category because it's too much of a pain to tell the encroachers that they screwed the pooch and have to spend millions of dollars to fix their previously illegally transmitting equipment (all too often these are US companies under FCC jurisdiction already - better to ask forgiveness than to obey the law).

For recent examples that happened in previous administratons: It happened with 72 GHz band with self driving cars and their sensor units under Wheeler(!). It was allocated on a primary basis to amateur radio. Amateur radio was forced to bend over and move to secondary basis. It happened in the 10 meter band with offshore beacons, again, encroaching on amateur radio which has primary use of the band. Elsewhere in the world it's a problem with 40 meters with commercial short wave broadcasts. All up and down the high frequency bands in commercial broadcast bands as well with what's called over-the-horizon-radar stations.

Sure Pai is screwing over everyone he can manage to in order to let monied interests take over the public air waves. That should be called out. It should be stopped. But to make like this only just started with THIS administration and with Pai is just plain ignorant of history and historical FCC policies. Course, he's obviously got some balls to fuck up weather forecasting, but I highly doubt enough Congressmen will get their heads out of their asses to do something about it... without making the problem worse.

I'm sorry but it isn't hard to argue that something else should have priority over amateur radio.

It's just fine for tens of thousands of engineers/hobbyists nationwide to just have something like this taken away from them?

Sorry to break it to the Republican haters, but this kind of thing has been going on for a while now, and not just with the current fuck-wit in the FCC chairmanship.

When mega money interests enter the scene and start encroaching on already allocated bands those that already have exclusive use end up getting moved aside to "secondary" use category because it's too much of a pain to tell the encroachers that they screwed the pooch and have to spend millions of dollars to fix their previously illegally transmitting equipment (all too often these are US companies under FCC jurisdiction already - better to ask forgiveness than to obey the law).

For recent examples that happened in previous administratons: It happened with 72 GHz band with self driving cars and their sensor units under Wheeler(!). It was allocated on a primary basis to amateur radio. Amateur radio was forced to bend over and move to secondary basis. It happened in the 10 meter band with offshore beacons, again, encroaching on amateur radio which has primary use of the band. Elsewhere in the world it's a problem with 40 meters with commercial short wave broadcasts. All up and down the high frequency bands in commercial broadcast bands as well with what's called over-the-horizon-radar stations.

Sure Pai is screwing over everyone he can manage to in order to let monied interests take over the public air waves. That should be called out. It should be stopped. But to make like this only just started with THIS administration and with Pai is just plain ignorant of history and historical FCC policies. Course, he's obviously got some balls to fuck up weather forecasting, but I highly doubt enough Congressmen will get their heads out of their asses to do something about it... without making the problem worse.

I'm sorry but it isn't hard to argue that something else should have priority over amateur radio.

It's just fine for tens of thousands of engineers/hobbyists nationwide to just have something like this taken away from them?

Rightly or wrongly, that's just shuffling around who is allowed to use what. This is fundamentally different. You can't just tweak physics so weather sats can use a different frequency.

will this have an effect on Chinese branded phones, due to China and other countries not adopting the 24ghz spectrum?Great, another network that will only work within the US.Its like CDMA all over again, but even worse.

Yes I am sure that the guys running the weather satellites complain. But in the end it's a trade off. There will be no 5g over the ocean or the tropical jungle instead thus interference ( if it happens) will happen over cities. It should be not too hard to adjust the data for it. Perhaps not immediately but this is no apocalypse. Also the band's are banned the question is bleeding which most likely can be mitigated. On the other hand you have more bandwidth used by hundreds of millions every day. This is a bit more complex than a "ajit is the devil and tries to sell our future to corporations " post.

Yes I am sure that the guys running the weather satellites complain. But in the end it's a trade off. There will be no 5g over the ocean or the tropical jungle instead thus interference ( if it happens) will happen over cities. It should be not too hard to adjust the data for it. Perhaps not immediately but this is no apocalypse. Also the band's are banned the question is bleeding which most likely can be mitigated. On the other hand you have more bandwidth used by hundreds of millions every day. This is a bit more complex than a "ajit is the devil and tries to sell our future to corporations " post.

Ignorant nonsense. The trade-off is that if 5G suppliers use 24Ghz, then water vapor measurements WILL be degraded, and weather forecasting WILL be impacted. The US is the only country currently contemplating using the 24Ghz band. All the others have banned use of that band so as not to interfere with weather satellite measurements. Pai is a scientific illiterate.

You can't put a filter on the receiver that will fix this. I will say it again, the only fix is on the transmitter side. The transmissions will literally dwarf the background microwaves and make it impossible to get any accurate readings. The signals these receivers are picking up are already at the noise floor. You can't put a filter on the sound of a pin drop and hear it over death metal cranked to the max and that's the equivalent of what you would be trying to do. The microwaves they are listening to are natural phenomenon, they are not being transmitted by a transmitter, so any other signal will simply squash them. A strong signal would be interpreted as more moisture. There would be no way to separate it.

Your going to have entire areas that you would now have to go back and remove the data to prevent it from damaging your forecasting models and you would have to create new models that would have to work without large areas being part of the data.

Exactly this! I know people who work in this field and have been told that the microwave sounders are far more important to accurate weather forecasting than the visible light and IR pictures you see on the news. The 23.8 GHz band has been used by forecasters since at least 1998. Take away these channels and you undo literal decades of improvement to weather forecasting.

The instruments on satellites are receivers that cannot change frequency because they cannot change the physical properties of water vapor. Filters on the receivers can't work because the phenomena they are studying are too weak and the interference from the telecoms would be too strong. The choice is between having the telecoms change their designs so as to not screw up weather forecasting, or screw up weather forecasting to increase the telecoms' profits. People can and have died because of poor weather forecasts. Letting Verizon, et. al. have their way will literally kill people for the sake of telecom profits and cat videos.

Furthermore, it is also an issue of money vs. money. I have been told that on average it costs about $1 million per mile of coastline that is evacuated for a hurricane. This is both direct costs and lost economic activity. Poorer accuracy in forecasts of where the storm will make landfall means that longer stretches of coastline will have to be evacuated.

There is only one non-psychotic answer to this, and the telecoms have to change.

Great tradeoff you guys. Shitty, spotty, short range, closer to Wi-fi cellular networks for weather forecast data in a world that's going to have more and more extreme weather events in the upcoming years.Clap clap, need to keep those mobile networks coffers going

The Navy is not beholden to FCC regulations, correct? They can basically do whatever they want? Could they just go full Scorched Earth on this? Issue a notice that anywhere they detect significant bleed over into spectrum critical to national defense, they put up their own transmitters in band, sufficiently overpowering and well characterized as to allow those meteorological satellites to continue to operate. Tampering or otherwise inhibiting the proper operation of those transmitters would be considered an act of treason, and punishable through military tribunals outside of the court systems. Basically, scare anyone who might purchase it away from doing so.

No, that won't work. They need to turn off the offending transmitters.

Yes I am sure that the guys running the weather satellites complain. But in the end it's a trade off. There will be no 5g over the ocean or the tropical jungle instead thus interference ( if it happens) will happen over cities. It should be not too hard to adjust the data for it. Perhaps not immediately but this is no apocalypse. Also the band's are banned the question is bleeding which most likely can be mitigated. On the other hand you have more bandwidth used by hundreds of millions every day. This is a bit more complex than a "ajit is the devil and tries to sell our future to corporations " post.

Ignorant nonsense. The trade-off is that if 5G suppliers use 24Ghz, then water vapor measurements WILL be degraded, and weather forecasting WILL be impacted. The US is the only country currently contemplating using the 24Ghz band. All the others have banned use of that band so as not to interfere with weather satellite measurements. Pai is a scientific illiterate.

You don't address any of my points. Yes there will be Impact. I doubt that it is serious. It should be easy to adjust down some values over cities. And this is something that needs to be weighed against the benefits.

No other country does fracking either. And that is one of the most beneficial technologies for gdp and less reliance on the middle easy that has ever been invented. So the "no other country does it" argument is useless.

science question. what do weather satellites use the 23.8ghz band for?

is it intercommunication or is it water vapor amounts in the atmosphere? If it is part of the sensor itself then the sales should be prohibited. beyond certain power levels.

The ground naturally emits and reflects radio energy in all frequencies, and water vapor absorbs and attenuates that frequency, so the satellites "look through" the atmosphere at those frequencies and use received signal strength as a proxy for water vapor content. If we're artificially emitting that frequency towards the sky, the satellites are going to interpret that as water vapor signal.

Just trying to fully understand this but since water absorbs and does not reflect that frequency, wouldn't emitting on that frequency be interpreted as a Lack of water vapor signal (ie: it will hide the fact that there is water vapour and all urban areas will look like dry wastelands)?

I will cheer when the next administration takes the spectrum away from the greedy jerks who thought they could get away with it for the long term.

What makes you think they will?

At this point the US seems to be degenerating into a kleptocracy, following the lead of post-Gorbachev Russia under Yeltsin. And Yeltsin lasted the equivalent of two terms.Even if Trump doesn't, what makes you think the Senate will turn Democrat, given the built in bias of the State representation?

I would be interested to know if backwardness in rural areas is causing population drift to the cities, ensuring an increasing disparity of representation in the Senate. The lack of a written Constitution in the UK made it possible, over a period, to curb the power of the Lords. There is no equivalent mechanism for the US.

Yes I am sure that the guys running the weather satellites complain. But in the end it's a trade off. There will be no 5g over the ocean or the tropical jungle instead thus interference ( if it happens) will happen over cities. It should be not too hard to adjust the data for it. Perhaps not immediately but this is no apocalypse. Also the band's are banned the question is bleeding which most likely can be mitigated. On the other hand you have more bandwidth used by hundreds of millions every day. This is a bit more complex than a "ajit is the devil and tries to sell our future to corporations " post.

Ignorant nonsense. The trade-off is that if 5G suppliers use 24Ghz, then water vapor measurements WILL be degraded, and weather forecasting WILL be impacted. The US is the only country currently contemplating using the 24Ghz band. All the others have banned use of that band so as not to interfere with weather satellite measurements. Pai is a scientific illiterate.

You don't address any of my points. Yes there will be Impact. I doubt that it is serious. It should be easy to adjust down some values over cities. And this is something that needs to be weighed against the benefits.

No other country does fracking either. And that is one of the most beneficial technologies for gdp and less reliance on the middle easy that has ever been invented. So the "no other country does it" argument is useless.

No other country does fracking? Rubbish.

Over here an independent researcher failed in an application to stop a fracking company on the grounds they had not conducted a proper environmental assessment. Shortly after, a series of small earthquakes proved him right and the company had to stop.

In fact for Europe the simplest way to benefit GDP is to buy cheap Russian gas, which is why the US is trying to put a stop to it.

will this have an effect on Chinese branded phones, due to China and other countries not adopting the 24ghz spectrum?Great, another network that will only work within the US.Its like CDMA all over again, but even worse.

Countries using different bands is a very common occurrence, and it should not be conflated with using different protocols altogether.

Yes I am sure that the guys running the weather satellites complain. But in the end it's a trade off. There will be no 5g over the ocean or the tropical jungle instead thus interference ( if it happens) will happen over cities. It should be not too hard to adjust the data for it. Perhaps not immediately but this is no apocalypse. Also the band's are banned the question is bleeding which most likely can be mitigated. On the other hand you have more bandwidth used by hundreds of millions every day. This is a bit more complex than a "ajit is the devil and tries to sell our future to corporations " post.

Ignorant nonsense. The trade-off is that if 5G suppliers use 24Ghz, then water vapor measurements WILL be degraded, and weather forecasting WILL be impacted. The US is the only country currently contemplating using the 24Ghz band. All the others have banned use of that band so as not to interfere with weather satellite measurements. Pai is a scientific illiterate.

You don't address any of my points. Yes there will be Impact. I doubt that it is serious. It should be easy to adjust down some values over cities. And this is something that needs to be weighed against the benefits.

No other country does fracking either. And that is one of the most beneficial technologies for gdp and less reliance on the middle easy that has ever been invented. So the "no other country does it" argument is useless.

You say it should be easy...So how would you do it? Because so far, the experts are saying that it's not.