[0:01] This is Experimental where we explore exciting research occurring at Louisiana
State University and learn about the individuals posing the questions. I'm Becky Carmichael.
Dr. Metha Klock, Ph.D. graduate from the Harms Lab in biological sciences, discusses
today, plant mutualisms and how those promiscuous relationships may aid in the invasion
of ecosystems.

Metha Klock

[0:24] Promiscuity, it's not just an animal thing. Did you know that plants can be
promiscuous too. Plants interact with the world around them. In fact, they are constantly
interacting with other organisms, from birds to fungi to microbes, just to name a
few. Some plants are less selective with the organisms they'll associate with. We
call these promiscuous hosts. As a community ecologist, I explore interactions in
the natural world and look at how they influence the invasion of species in new ranges.
I look specifically at mutualisms, those interactions that are good for both parties
involved, and try to figure out whether plants that are more promiscuous mutualist
are better at surviving in areas where they are introduced. The specific mutualism
I've been most interested in is between legumes and rhizobia. Legumes are plants in
the pea family, and rhizobia are nitrogen fixing bacteria that occur in the soil.
Most legumes have the specialized ability to interact beneficially with rhizobia.
Underground, out of sight, bacteria infect the root hairs of the plants. The plants
develop a structure called a nodule, where the bacteria live. The bacteria in these
nodules sequester nitrogen that occurs in our atmosphere and convert it into a form
that the plant can use. In turn the plant provide sugars to the bacteria. Why does
this matter as far as invasion is concerned? Nitrogen is limiting for many plant species.
So legumes that have this relationship with rhizobia have access to their own personalized
source of nitrogen, which may provide them with a competitive advantage in new ranges
over native non nitrogen fixing plant species. Legumes are not only mutualists. Some
are promiscuous too. One of my research questions looks at whether promiscuous legume
hosts, or those that can associate with more strains of rhizobia are the ones that
become successful invaders. The more promiscuous a legume host is, the more easily
it may find rhizobial partners when introduced to a new range. So far, I've found
evidence that invasive legumes are more promiscuous than naturalized or non invasive
legumes. And this is helping us understand why certain species are successful invaders
in new ranges. Plants are pretty sexy creatures. And there's evidence that the less
discerning a plant is for its mutualistic partners, the more likely it may be to invade
any region. In my research at Louisiana State University, I started unraveling one
of the mechanisms behind species invasions, but there's still a lot of work to do.
Invasive species are currently recognized as the second largest threat to biodiversity
following human driven habitat destruction. Researchers estimate that there are around
50,000 non-native species in the United States alone, and approximately 4300 of these
are invasive. The Nature Conservancy estimates that damage from invasive species worldwide
has cost us $1.4 trillion. $1.4 trillion dollars! Our ability to easily transport
new species to novel areas has put a pressure on ecosystems that they are not capable
of responding to in a balanced way. The goal of my research is to increase our knowledge
about how species invade new regions, so that we can find better ways to manage those
that are already causing harm. But even more so to prevent the introduction of new
species that could become invasive. Interactions are everywhere. And providing answers
to how interactions promote the invasion of species and new ranges can help us develop
plans to mitigate or stop their further invasion and alleviate the damage they're
causing the natural world.

Becky Carmichael

[4:20] Hi, Metha. How are you?

Metha Klock

[4:21] I'm good. How are you, Becky?

Becky Carmichael

[4:22] I am wonderful. So let's get this started. Tell me a little bit about what...
How the interest in your field began? What spurred that interest?

Metha Klock

[4:30] Yeah. I think I was always interested in nature ever since I was a little kid.
I grew up with, you know, a mountain right at my doorstep. I hiked all the time with
my mom. My grandpa was a big hiker, so I was just always exposed to that as a child
and really loved nature. When I was an undergraduate, I actually didn't study science
at all. I went to a liberal arts college, and I took full advantage of that and studied
psychology, sociology, writing, art, just all sorts of things. It wasn't until after
I graduated and worked in publishing for a couple of years and realized that I really
didn't want a job where I was stuck inside all the time under fluorescent lights,
without being able to be outdoors at all. Then I realized I really need to find a
job where I can work outdoors, where I can use this love of nature and really interact
with the things that were most important to me. So I had previously volunteered at
a native plant nursery. That's part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. And
I found out that they had internships. And so I applied for the internship and was
accepted. And I basically lived out in a national park for a year. Yeah, it was wonderful.
It was great, because you really get to see how things change in the natural world
over time. Little quail were born at one point, and then the quail... There was about...
I don't know... There was a bunch of little quail running around, then all all of
a sudden there were fewer quail and fewer quail. But yeah, I really loved being in
that area. And I worked at a nursery that was doing native habitat restoration. And
after doing that for a year, I knew that I had to keep working in that field.

Becky Carmichael

[6:18] So that sounds exciting. I can see how both the time at the internship really
helps kind of foster that ability to kind of figure out what you want to do, but then
also with your training in liberal arts you found that that has helped you as a scientist
now.

Metha Klock

[6:33] Absolutely. One of the main things that Sarah Lawrence emphasized was writing.
And being able to be a writer and communicate well the ideas that you have is essential
really in any field. It also taught me that I could explore, that I could try all
different things. And so I wasn't relegated to questions that people had asked before.
I could think up my own questions and take those the direction that they wanted to
go.

Becky Carmichael

[7:01] Yeah, I think it's a true opportunity to understand not just what it means
to be inquisitive, but what it takes to be a scientist. To really kind of think outside
the box, but also to be aware of kind of what's already known. So filling in those
gaps.

Metha Klock

[7:14] Yeah. And that education teaches you how to learn too. So you know, you might
not remember all the details from your undergraduate education, every class that you
took. But if you learn how to learn, you can take that with you wherever you go.

Becky Carmichael

[7:28] So then, now that you've become your... You've completed your degree. I'd like
you to think a little bit back and what would you consider to be one of your greatest
mistakes in terms of your path to get to this point, now?

Metha Klock

[7:45] I like to think that, you know, I didn't make any mistakes, because I am where
I am today, and I'm happy where I am today. So I like to think that, you know, everything
that happened, even if it wasn't all great at all times, wasn't a mistake. But if
I had to list something that I wish I would have done more of, it would be to have
asked people for help more often. I think especially coming from a liberal arts background
into this pretty serious science field, I sometimes felt intimidated by people. I
felt like I didn't know as much as other people. And I was worried that if I asked
for help that I would look stupid. And so sometimes that kept me from, you know, being
able to streamline things, really. If I just asked somebody for help, they would have
been able to tell me the answer and I could have skipped over a lot of hurdles. On
one hand, you know, not asking for help forces you to do research and figure it out
yourself. But asking for help also opens you up to collaborations with people and
as I went through my dissertation, I got a lot better at this. And I ended up developing
relationships with people, both at LSU and at the research organization that I was
working in in Australia, and I stopped being afraid so much to ask people, you know,
I don't know how to do this. Can you tell me how to do this? And so eventually, I've
developed skills at being better at that. But I think that early on, that was one
of my mistakes, was not asking people for help as much as I could have or should have.

Becky Carmichael

[9:17] And so then if you were to think about to kind of looking at yourself at a
younger age, is that going to be what you would tell yourself, be sure you're asking
for help? Do you have a kind of a an idea of what stage someone... How far... How
soon should someone ask for help?

Metha Klock

[9:33] I think that I actually learned from one of my collaborators in Australia.
You do as much research as you can to get to that answer, and then if you can't get
any further then you ask somebody. But, you know, you have to remember that people
are really busy too. And if you just come to their door in a tizzy and you don't know
what you're doing, you go, help me! You know? You probably won't get as good of an
answer as if you ask them that question and an educated way. So I think that that
would have helped, you know, just to... Or that that helps in getting the answer to
the questions that you have. Something I would have told my younger self was to not
worry so much about things. When I first started my PhD, I was really concerned about
everything going perfectly. And my advisor, Dr. Kyle Harms, gave me the opportunity
during my first summer to really just go out and explore and research these plants
that I was interested in looking at. And so I went to California, and I drove all
over the place. And I was trying to find these plants. And I kept thinking, I need
to be collecting data. I need to be collecting data. I'm not collecting data. I'm
just, you know, looking at where they are, which in a sense is collecting data.

Becky Carmichael

[10:45] Yeah, you're observing.

Metha Klock

[10:46] Yeah.

Becky Carmichael

[10:46

Which is... The observing is a good part of the scientific process

Metha Klock

[10:49] Yeah and I didn't... But I didn't think that that was the right thing to do,
or I didn't think that that was as worthwhile as if I actually had a clipboard with
a data sheet. And I was filling in data lines. So I think I would tell myself, don't
be so worried, you know? Just explore, go and see things. Let the patterns come out
to you as you're exploring. Because if you're so worried about what you know, the
detailed things that you need, that you think are going to be useful down the line,
you sort of stifle yourself. And that summer ended up being extremely important. And
the times that I went back to California to actually collect data, now I knew where
the plants were. I didn't have to go search them out all over the place. I made connections
with other researchers in California in that summer, and just went and talked to people
at different schools at Cal Poly and at University of California in Santa Cruz. And
so that summer was really invaluable, and was probably one of the most, you know,
useful times in my PhD. I just wish that I'd allowed myself to enjoy it a little bit
more and not be so worried about what was coming out of it.

Becky Carmichael

I think that the worry part is really kind of difficult, especially when you're starting
something, to overcome, because you've got so many years to complete. And you have
all these different tasks coming your way. But I think that that's excellent advice.
And also, it sounds like you did quite a bit of field work. Did you have anyone coming
out to assist you? Were you ever by yourself? How did you manage tackling the amount
of data collection that you had to take on to complete to get your dissertation completed?

Metha Klock

Yeah. I did a lot of field work, both in Australia and in California. And one of the
things that I wish that I had had or wish that I had thought about beforehand a little
bit more was having help in the field. I very strongly feel that people should have
field buddies or research assistants with them. Even if that just means dragging your
mom and dad or your sister or your friend out with you. I feel like you know, there's
lots of things that can happen in the field, whether it's interactions with people,
animals, stepping in a hole and hurting yourself, there's lots of variables that you
can't control. And so I ended up doing a fair amount of field research or field work
on my own. There were moments where I definitely felt uncomfortable. And I did try
to listen to those moments. And I was fortunate not to get into any, you know, anything
too sketchy of a situation. But I would say to young researchers, that they really
should try to develop partnerships with people where they can do field work together.
It's just a safer way to do it, and it's really not worth it. I think we feel a lot
of pressure to get data for our dissertations. And I think sometimes we just do it
without really thinking about our own personal safety, because we want to get this
done. And we want to get papers published. And we want to get good stuff. But we really
need to plan ahead to make those situations as safe for ourselves as we can. So...

Becky Carmichael

[13:50] And I think that you're also highlighting another layer there of that collaborative
effort, that opportunity for observation. But those friendships, I feel like you can
go out with someone and they don't have to necessarily be within your lab. Like you
said, you can bring a family member, but even bringing someone from outside of your
discipline or outside of your particular area. Not only do they offer that layer of
safety, they also can bring in that observation where they can highlight things that
you didn't necessarily notice that maybe you should have been noticing. Those patterns
as well, could lead to an interesting question.

Metha Klock

[14:23] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I dragged my mom and dad out into the field with me.
And they enjoyed it, you know? it's like it's a chance for them to get closer to the
work that we're doing. Because I think a lot of times, our parents don't really understand
what we're doing. And they just sort of say, Good job, dear. But do they really know
about it? Not necessarily. So that's a chance for them to experience it firsthand.
And, you know, friends and family, for them to really kind of get a better understanding
of why you're doing what you're doing.

Becky Carmichael

[14:51] So I know that you graduated this past December with your doctorate. Tell
me a little bit. What's your future plans, now? What does this hold for you and your
plant interactions?

Metha Klock

[15:03] Well, I'm actually moving to Norway in a few weeks. Above the Arctic Circle,
Tromso, Norway, and I'm applying for a Marie Curie grant.

Becky Carmichael

[15:16] Congratulations!

Metha Klock

[15:16] Thank you. I've been invited to symposium there. And after that, I'll be writing
the grant. And that's due in September. So hopefully that will fund a postdoc that
would start up in January of 2017. And while I'm there, what I want to study is plants
that are native, but are sort of displaying potentially invasive tendencies of moving
and shifting their range sizes as a result of climate change. So in the Arctic region,
temperatures are rising at twice the rate as they are in other parts of the world.
And so this is allowing for species that wouldn't normally occur in certain areas
to start to move their range north... Northern? Northward. And so I really want to
look at particular plant species that are very common in this area, and see how climate
change and global warming is allowing them to move up, and how this is then influencing
other plants and animals in those areas. So continue looking at interactions, but
just in a much more northern climate,

Becky Carmichael

[16:21] I was going to say, you're going to be very, very busy over the next several
months.

Metha Klock

[16:24] Yeah.

Becky Carmichael

[16:25] And probably a whole heck of a lot colder than you've been here in Louisiana.

Metha Klock

[16:29] Yeah, It'll be a definite change, but one of the things that I've really loved
about my dissertation was the chance to go to all different places in the world. I've
been to Australia multiple times. I've been to Costa Rica. I've spent time in Louisiana,
time in California, gone to conferences and other parts of the country. And it's really
an opportunity for people who are starting out their dissertations, particularly in
ecology, to see the world. And if you think of the kinds of questions that might give
you the opportunity to do that. I picked the plants that I was interested in, partially
because I wanted to go to Australia and I wanted to study species that were native
in Australia and invasive in California. And so my dissertation allowed me to do that.
So...

Becky Carmichael

That was very strategic planning.

Metha Klock

Yes, very strategic planning. And one thing to that I wanted to mention, is the importance
of communicating in science. So, Dr. Carmichael, I've been working with her over the
last semester and at the communication across curriculum studio at LSU. And you know,
your science only goes so far if you're not able to communicate it, whether that's
through presentations or in written ways, or just talking to people, or doing podcasts,
bench top talks like this. And so what the work that Dr. Carmichael's doing is extremely
important. And I've been really fortunate to work with you, Becky.

Becky Carmichael

[17:59] Awww.

Metha Klock

[18:00] So, I just wanted to say that.

Becky Carmichael

[18:02] You know I'm going to miss you.

Metha Klock

[18:03] Yeah.

Becky Carmichael

[18:04] Yeah. I can say now, you've always been my good friend. So it's gonna be hard
to see you go, but I'm very excited to see what the future has in store for you. And
yeah...

Metha Klock

[18:25] Awwww.

Becky Carmichael

[18:25] Experimental was recorded and produced in the KLSU Studios here on the campus
of Louisiana State University and is supported by LSU's Communication Across the Curriculum
and the College of Science. Today's interview was conducted by Becky Carmichael and
edited by Bailey Wilder. To learn more about today's episode, subscribe to the podcast,
ask questions and recommend future investigators visit cxc.lsu.edu/experimental