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Speaking of overplaying for players, Delgado should have been let go at the end of last year. We got all we could out of the guy. It was time to cut bait. What was the option, 12 mil? Maybe not too much $ but it certainly had an impact on what we spent this year.

Maybe that $12 mil gets us Orlando Hudson and we never have to see Castillo's shaky knees (and glove) again. Minaya has made moves both good and bad but his biggest problem is not predicting decline in performance.

2006 we get lucky with Valentin and we somehow think he'll repeat in 07.
07 we get Alou. He gets hurt. And we think he'll come around in 08.
06 with El Duque. Gets hurt, we depend on him for 07 and 08.
(Quick interruption - Murphy just made a sick play at 1st. This guy should play everyday)
Which brings me to Tatis. C'mon. Who didn't see the 09 dropoff coming?
07, 08, Pedro.

We've gone to bat for the last 3 years with no 2b, no corner OFs, and no C (be it a hitter or good defensive catcher). I'm not good in math but even I can tell that's half a lineup. When you have that many question marks, it's no surprise that things sometimes don't work out.

And I didn't even get into the starters yet...

What we need is a real baseball guy. Not a Bill James, not a Billy Beane, but a Branch Rickey or Frank Cashen. We need someone who can build a team, not collect a bunch of talent and hope it'll mesh. It hasn't here.

It's becoming more and more apparent that Minaya is not that guy. And we know for damn sure it ain't Bernazard.

So what do you do? Keep your fingers crossed. Stay home and watch (and pray) for the best. Hope this organization gets it's head out of it's ass. Go to Citi for the discounted games only and root for your fantasy team like every other baseball fan whose team sucks.

Not to be argumentative, but the Delgado signing was a good one. No one could foresee his major injury. He was a proven producer. I think it wasa good signing. No need to break a working machine.

Castillo's glove is just fine. I don't think he's overpaid.

I most definitely agree with your comment regarding Tatis. I saw the dropoff coming a million miles away. The Mets should have known last season was a welcome aberration.

So, no 2B? I disagree. And Schneider is as good a defensive catcher as can be had in MLB. We weren't gonna keep Lo Duca, and Milledge has proven to be not much more than a clubhouse disturbance.

The other thing with which I agree is that Omar needs to begin concentrating on taking his cue from the Mahatma. He should right now begin building a team for the future in the farms, rather than trading prospects for quick fixes.

'09 may or may not be a lost cause -- that decision is still in the hands of the baseball gods -- but we need to get moving on the minor leagues.

Even when they’re good on paper, they’re lousy on a diamond. This can’t be blamed on Minaya or Phillips or any of the GMs that have put these teams together. No matter who's GM, the result always seems the same. It’s the result of an organizational philosophy. Ever since the great teams of the 1980s were torn apart, it’s been the same formula over and over: a tired cast of generally indifferent, fireless mercenaries with what little homegrown talent that sprouts out a wasteland of a farm system usually winding up elsewhere.

When the mercenaries fail to live up to expectations, or go down with injuries, there’s never anything to fall back on. When the mercenaries do well, they generally fail to gel as a team and spit the bit when it counts. The failure to run out batted balls and frequent botching of routine plays often doesn’t make the box scores, but it almost seems like a Mets tradition at this point - we can all name the various offenders from the past two decades.

I can no longer blame the parade of different GMs, because the problem has proven to be endemic over the last 20 years.

I consider it the fault of an ownership that seems to despise colorful, scrappy gamers and loves “safe” colorless types that don’t play with intensity. I consider it the fault of an ownership that will sign a few big names to fill the seats, but won’t pony up a few million extra for guys like Abreu and Hudson to actually win when the roster is obviously full of holes. I consider it the fault of an ownership that seems to worry more about the menus in their exclusive restaurants than depth charts.

Not only do the teams reflect the dismal corporate philosophy of the owners, but I find the ongoing efforts to shed the team persona that won me as a fan in the first place and gentrify the team's image to be distasteful.

Meanwhile, prices have been raised so high that none of the Subway Series games have sold out and most of the better seats can be found for below their obscene face value on Stub Hub. I can’t really say the franchise has been a source of much joy of late.

I almost find myself wishing for things to finally bottom out so that Fred and Jeff will just sell the team. I don’t see much hope of significant change until then.

Thoughts?

You nailed it with this post.
I generally always avoid the Wilpon bashing, particularly when they're called cheap but the Wilpon era aspects you bring up are right on.
I don't want the team to bottom out but I'll admit I would rather watch and root for home grown kids enduring growing pains than the collection of mostly jizz-less imported 'proven talents' we have endured on the roster year after year for almost 20 seasons now.

Originally Posted by NYMets523

I didn't bother reading the rest of your post since it's just your tired complaitns about ownership.

Golly gee ! Thank you for this post !
We just can't get enough of your joyless pontificating, criticisms and unknowledgable, arrogant opinions.
At least you're consistant.
Way to go ! Keep up the good work !

Originally Posted by Mongoose

You shouldn't respond to things you haven't read - you'll wind up criticizing something you don't know about. You're then liable to come off looking ill-informed.

He is exibit A of what drives people away from the Mets Forum at BB-F.

Originally Posted by StillShea

I'm about a season and a half away from refusing to support this team in any way, shape or form until there's a change in ownership.

I'm tempted to say "don't do it !" but I don't think you will. I understand how you feel as I've felt the same way scores of times over the last 2 decades. There's a fine line between love and hate but the one constant is passion. We'll never leave them. It's like a codependent relationship. We may stay away for a week or two ... but then we make that booty call and it's like we never left.

As for the Wilpons selling, it will never happen. Never. Their ownership is bigger than the Mets now; they're television moguls and our Mets are the centerpiece of their programing.

Originally Posted by PVNICK

... there isn't the mental fortitude to stick with a players growing pains if he isn't Reyes or Wright straight out of the box.

So correct and so unfortunate.

Just look at the 'win now' set screaming for Murphy to be dumped ... just like many had NO patience with Reyes in the begining btw. (I was guilty of this myself last year with Pelfry, but in my defence, that is the only time I've ever acted that way.)

Met fans have changed over the years. It started in the '80's with, imo, the booing of Sisk. The fan base became full blown a-holes with the Shea booing of Carter and Hernandez at the end of their careers, when they were old and broken down.

As much as I would love to see, and would welcome, a rebuilding era with homegrown kids busting their butts and giving me a reason to cheer even if the W-L record stinks, I can't believe that will EVER happen in Queens again. The modern, unknowledgable, WFAN listening Met 'fans' would never accept it.

Originally Posted by elancaster

.

On the other hand, the Cyclones are doing good so far, not that any of them are MLB prospects. At least their tickets are cheaper than CitiField's and the games are a ton of fun.

Ditto that for the LI Ducks !
High level of play, players hustling because they are trying to prove something, free parking, Gary Carter managing and no big deal if they lose because you're just there to enjoy a baseballgame.

Just look at the 'win now' set screaming for Murphy to be dumped ... Met fans have changed over the years. It started in the '80's with, imo, the booing of Sisk. The

Sisk. There is a blast from the past. He had richly earned the nickname "The Arsonist." Murphy should be dumped because he is a liability in the field and should be a DH if he ever finds his stroke again. There is just no place to hide him in the field. He is, without a doubt, one of the worst fielders I have ever seen take the field for the Mets.

As for the Wilpons selling, it will never happen. Never. Their ownership is bigger than the Mets now; they're television moguls and our Mets are the centerpiece of their programing.

Yeah, it's a vampire/victim relationship they've developed with the team, but look:

The Mets are awful - they're going to have to rebuild. It's going to be a good 5 years before they're able to field anything like a winner again. The only caveat here is the current screwy playoff system and their weak division, but I see a long stretch of bad teams and lower T.V. and ballpark revenue.

I can see the corporate "fans" deserting this team like rats from a sinking ship after this season plays out. Ordinary fan attendance is capped out at the 15,500 capacity of Promenade. There'll be fewer people left to shop at the mall - this will reduce revenue, too.

With the possibility that congress will bar them from the TARP money and with their losses from Madoff, it might become difficult to keep up the payments on "Citi Field".

One can always hope.

Originally Posted by whoisonit

fans have changed over the years. It started in the '80's with, imo, the booing of Sisk. The fan base became full blown a-holes with the Shea booing of Carter and Hernandez at the end of their careers, when they were old and broken down.

As much as I would love to see, and would welcome, a rebuilding era with homegrown kids busting their butts and giving me a reason to cheer even if the W-L record stinks, I can't believe that will EVER happen in Queens again. The modern, unknowledgable, WFAN listening Met 'fans' would never accept it.

I think it started with the booing of Gardenhire the year before Sisk melted down. You're right, though, it was the influx of frontrunners who appeared when the Mets got good again around 84/85.

You're right, though, it was the influx of frontrunners who appeared when the Mets got good again around 84/85.

I'm not trying to be funny or rip Yankee fans should any be reading, but didn't they all the front runners switch over to the Yankees by the mid 90s? I think its more a sign of the times or a function of the change in media coverage. I forgot all about Gardenhire. Wasn't he platooning with Backman and wasn't there some young SS at that same 82/83 time that didn't quite pan out?

Murphy should be dumped because he is a liability in the field and should be a DH if he ever finds his stroke again. There is just no place to hide him in the field. He is, without a doubt, one of the worst fielders I have ever seen take the field for the Mets.

Agree on all points.

Murphy lucked out when the "fancy play" he made against LA last night became an out. I'm talking about blindly flipping the ball to first from behind his back. I didn't see anything clever about it. The ball could have wound up just about anywhere, with all runners advancing. Very high schoolish.

I must be the only one left who believes in Murph. I still think he is a ballplayer. He and Evans are both raw and were rushed up last year. At best they should have been just about getting ready for their first call-ups around now. I think both need to play, especially now. Let them learn now while the team needs the hands and while there are no better options. We will have a better handle on their potential then. Yeah Murph is a train-wreck in the OF but he is servicable at 1B for now.

unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"

I don't normally post here, because, as a Mets' fan, I grow tired of other Mets' fans who suggest trading the 1973 version of Willie Mays for the 2009 version of Albert Pujols. The reality is that only unless your team plays in the Bronx, your team will not have an All-Star at every position. From my perspective as a fan, the problem with the Mets as many of you have pointed out is that the Mets are playing guys in positions that they are not accostumed to playing. For example, Murphy is playing LF and 1B, when by trade he has played 3B throughout his career. And, the Mets experimented with him at 2B during the Arizona Fall League. Also, Evans is a 1B by trade but is now forced to play in the outfield. This Mets' team reminds me of the Yankee teams of the 1980's, when the Yankees had the face of the franchise (Mattingly) surrounded by over-prices, past-their-prime players (Barfield, Bell, etc). With the Mets, they have the face of the franchise (Wright) surrounded by players who are near the end of their careers or playing out of position. This is not the year for the Mets to win the World Series. Personally, I would love to see the Mets return to player development and bring talent up through the system and then add key players as needed to fill the holes (see 1986 Mets as a guide). Just my two cents.

I love the people who have given up on Murphy. Maybe he is a bum, but can he play a year at least before a decision is made? And why is he not in the lineup tonight? We don't want Tatis' bat out of the lineup? Geez.

And to an earlier poster... I'm sorry but neither Schneider nor Castro are good defensive catchers. Santos, who we found off the scrap heat, is. And because he has been a pleasant surprise we don't have to wonder who will be our catcher next year. Fast forward one year from today and we'll be asking why anyone thought this guy Santos could be an everyday catcher.

I love the people who have given up on Murphy. Maybe he is a bum, but can he play a year at least before a decision is made? And why is he not in the lineup tonight? We don't want Tatis' bat out of the lineup? Geez.

And to an earlier poster... I'm sorry but neither Schneider nor Castro are good defensive catchers. Santos, who we found off the scrap heat, is. And because he has been a pleasant surprise we don't have to wonder who will be our catcher next year. Fast forward one year from today and we'll be asking why anyone thought this guy Santos could be an everyday catcher.

I don't think that people have given up on Murphy. The problem IMO is that they should have never handed him a job out of spring training in the first place. The guy is an absolute butcher in the field (he was at 3B too) and should have been down in AAA from the get-go learning to play the OF, or 1B, instead of learning it in the majors. The Mets could have added Ibanez, Dunn or Abreu to play LF for a reasonable deal. I think that Murphy's poor performance at the plate is a related to his inability to play the field.

I do agree however that at this point Murphy should be playing every single day at 1B. Jerry Manuel's insistence on playing Tatis is mind boggling.

I'm not trying to be funny or rip Yankee fans should any be reading, but didn't they all the front runners switch over to the Yankees by the mid 90s? I think its more a sign of the times or a function of the change in media coverage. I forgot all about Gardenhire. Wasn't he platooning with Backman and wasn't there some young SS at that same 82/83 time that didn't quite pan out?

Gardenhire came up in the early 80's, spent a few years with the team and then was never heard from again as a player. He was a below average fielding shortstop who couldn't hit a lick.

Golly gee ! Thank you for this post !
We just can't get enough of your joyless pontificating, criticisms and unknowledgable, arrogant opinions.
At least you're consistant.
Way to go ! Keep up the good work !

He is exibit A of what drives people away from the Mets Forum at BB-F.

I would take Gardenhire as Mets manager today. Heck, I'd pick him up at the airport !!!!

Originally Posted by tomzpc

I would LOVE Gardenhire as manager.

Sure, but he's my second choice. His old platoon partner is out there and he's the best ML manager without a job. Wally Backman.
This brings us back to what mongoose said in the TS. I'll never happen and the reason why is the basic problem with the francise.

Sure, but he's my second choice. His old platoon partner is out there and he's the best ML manager without a job. Wally Backman.
This brings us back to what mongoose said in the TS. I'll never happen and the reason why is the basic problem with the francise.

People generally stick with names that are the most obvious, but there is another name that would appeal to many Mets fans. He goes by the name of Crazy Horse.

BTW, I'll give Omar a lil credit for the Frenchy trade. Church was done here (even though it prob wasn't his fault) so to get a right-handed 25 year-old OF with 25 HR potential and a good glove for him isn't really so bad. Plus it shuffles the cards a bit, which can't hurt.

Now if we could only add Backman to the mix and put Nails in as his bench coach we'd really have somethin cookin.

I'm not going to take Evans comment seriously. You don't know how long ago he asked and who he asked.

I agree. I did hear Evan on air state what has been reported, but you don't know who he asked or if there was more to the answer than is known...

How many teams have old-timer's day? And how tough is it to coordinate the schedules of 20 to 40 players to come to NY? It might be extremely difficult to coordinate. And what if Seaver says "no" because he is in the middle of harvesting his grapes? Then what? What if Koosman is busy fighting Income tax evasion, and Ryan is scouting players in teh Texas League. Many players have lives, coordinating schedules could be a disaster, frustrating, and a lot of work that doesn't work out in the end.

The Yankees Old Timers day used to be very very special when Joe D and Mickey and Scooter, etc would come on to the field, but even now it is not as interesting. I heard some of the names the other day...I forgot who they were...but the majority were pointless. Jerry Narron? Wow.