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Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

Not so large when you know that burning the book will result in murders.

I'm sure Reverend Nutter thinks he is on the side of all that is right and holy, and the Muslim extremists are on the side of the devil, but there really is little difference between them.

No, jones is a complete asshole. But he still didn't murder random people. Also, you act as if the Afghanis who committed these murders were just hapless pawns in his nefarious scheme, who had no other option open to to them

Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

Originally Posted by Andalublue

That seems a perfectly reasonable question. What should happen to the Rev. Jones as a consequence of taking the action which indirectly led to the deaths of the UN workers, consciously and inadvisedly? I passionately believe in the right of free expression, but I also passionately believe that those who have the privilege of enjoying such rights have a duty to use it responsibly. Clearly he did the opposite of this. I don't know whether the US has laws about incitement to violent disorder or not. I'm not sure either whether Rev Jones' actions could be construed as having directly incited that violence, but I certainly think it would be worth looking at.

Ultimately, I suspect he did nothing illegal, merely immoral.

So basically you only "passionately believe in the right of free expression" when you approve of the messages content

Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole

No, jones is a complete asshole. But he still didn't murder random people. Also, you act as if the Afghanis who committed these murders were just hapless pawns in his nefarious scheme, who had no other option open to to them

So, again, your general view of this event continues to confuse me

I didn't say that reverend Asshole committed the murders. He did incite the people who did,. That is the view of this event that continues to escape you.

If I go and poke a stick at a hornet's nest, the results are predictable. The hornets did the damage, but I'm the one who stirred them up.

But, even as a dumb teenager, I didn't poke a stick at that hornet's nest a second time. Reverend Nutter seems to think he's made some worthwhile point. What I fail to see is just what that point is.

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance. It is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking

Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

Originally Posted by Dittohead not!

Mainstream Islam is not driving anyone out of their homes and places of worship. It's the lunatic fringe that is doing that. There just isn't much market for news about people going about their own business and peacefully living their lives.

How do you know what is "mainstream Islam" and what is a "lunatic fringe"? Do you have any idea whatsoever or are you just guessing?

Is "mainstream Islam" condemning Christians being driven form their Churches and homes? Are they condemning the way Jews are defiled in the Middle East media? What has "mainstream Islam" got to say about the killings of the NATO workers, the 42 innocents recently killed in Pakistan, and so on?

Yes, most Muslims do live in peace and want to continue that way and are not a problem. But it does not take a majority to intimidate people, as we have seen. A few terrorist bombs and freedom of speech is canceled and any negative expressions towards Islam is quickly censored or condemned. This happens repeatedly.

We can say that not all Germans were Nazis and only wanted to live in peace, as did the Italians who were victims of Fascism, or the Russian people and Cuban people, among many others, who were forced to live under Communism..

All it takes is enough determined people to radically change the world, and the "people going about their own business and peacefully living their lives" bromide has nothing to do with it.

Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

Originally Posted by Dittohead not!

Mainstream Islam is not driving anyone out of their homes and places of worship. It's the lunatic fringe that is doing that. There just isn't much market for news about people going about their own business and peacefully living their lives.

Hey DN what's happenin'? To address this post and for the record, I don't think that this rev. or whatever he is with his 14 followers, and ties to Westboro Baptist, shouldn't have done this. Not because we should fear reprisals but because we are more civilized than our muslim enemy.

While it may be true that the radicals in Islam are driving that religion at the moment, you can not deny the deafening silence of the so called majority, that say that they do not condone these extremists, but do, or say very little publicly to denounce them either. Remember there is such a thing as support through silence as well.

j-mac

Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

I didn't say that reverend Asshole committed the murders. He did incite the people who did,. That is the view of this event that continues to escape you.

If I go and poke a stick at a hornet's nest, the results are predictable. The hornets did the damage, but I'm the one who stirred them up.

But, even as a dumb teenager, I didn't poke a stick at that hornet's nest a second time. Reverend Nutter seems to think he's made some worthwhile point. What I fail to see is just what that point is.

The people who did this were already incited, they didn't need the preacher. They weren't going about their day thinking "what a great day to be alive, I think I'll go hug a Jew" and then along came the preacher and burns the Koran and they're then like "OMG! That asshole! Well I wasn't going to do this, but now I'm going to go kill a bunch of random jerks!" No, they sat and thought about it, they decided targets and went with it. This wasn't some pissing and moaning at some jerk who burns the flag; this is premeditated murder and they merely used what the preacher did as an excuse. It's not like they weren't killing people before this preacher, and if you don't burn anymore books it's not like they're going to stop this.

No the responsibility falls solely on the adults who made a conscientious decision to go after other people and kill them, the preacher bears no responsibility what so ever for the actions of people half a world away. And that is the view of this event that continues to escape you.

You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville

"I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

Originally Posted by Dittohead not!

I didn't say that reverend Asshole committed the murders. He did incite the people who did,.

Yes, if you think incitement includes strongly disagreeing with someone, then you are correct. I mean, clearly if I go out and kill random people, because I find your statements here offensive, it's your fault.

Originally Posted by Dittohead not!

That is the view of this event that continues to escape you.

it escapes me because it's moronic and wrong

Originally Posted by Dittohead not!

If I go and poke a stick at a hornet's nest, the results are predictable.

right, you think afghanis are incapable of reason, thought, or better judgment than to kill random people over a book. I'm telling you they could have chosen not to.

Originally Posted by Dittohead not!

The hornets did the damage, but I'm the one who stirred them up.

No, we are not talking about hornets, we are talking about people capable of rational and independent thought that murdered people in response to someone exercising their right to free speech. And how your ire is directed at the guy who harmed no one

Originally Posted by Dittohead not!

But, even as a dumb teenager, I didn't poke a stick at that hornet's nest a second time. Reverend Nutter seems to think he's made some worthwhile point. What I fail to see is just what that point is.

The right to free speech isn't dependent on you, or anyone else, getting it

Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

OK, I did stir up a hornet's nest, didn't I?

Firstly, the rioters who are causing all the trouble are being manipulated by leaders for their own ends. Not that what they are doing can be excused, mind you, but they are uneducated people who are being told that the "great Satan" is to blame for their troubles and that they can get a reward in Heaven by killing Satan's minions, the infidel. We can see that the same people that are manipulating them are to blame for their troubles, but they can not. They only know what they have been told. Secondly, Reverend Jones did know what the results of his actions would be, and went ahead and staged his little publicity stunt anyway.

The rioters may have more intelligence than hornets, but their reaction, given the words of the people leading them, was totally predictable.

Secondly, the rioters don't represent Islam any more than Jones represents Christians.

Thirdly, there exists a fringe group of Christians who are easily manipulated by these events as well. They believe that a war between Islam and Christianity is a forerunner to the Second Coming, and so welcome such a war. Luckily, they don't go around chopping off heads like their Islamic counterparts do, but they are just as manipulated and misled by their leaders as the rioters are.

A few terrorists out raising havoc is not nearly as scary as the religious nutters who are expecting and hoping for Armageddon and either the Second Coming or the Twelfth Imam. An all out war that spreads from the fringe to the mainstream would be the end of modern civilization, and that's no exaggeration.

The numbers of both Christians and Muslims is in the billions. The fringe (yes, that is what it is) number in the thousands at best.

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance. It is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking