No, it's why secular morality is needed, so that we have a rational, logical means of determining what is acceptable and unacceptable and why that is not just the hopelessly arbitrary standard of "My imaginary dictator said so and you have to do it too even though you don't share my delusions."

As for abortion, I already knew you denied the rights to bodily autonomy, self-determination, and withdrawal of consent and that you are willing to use force to make a woman undergo a dangerous procedure against her will.

But humans disgust to incest when humans evolve will require Christian morality, because with secular morality, there wouldn’t be a rational logical reason that incest is unacceptable, due to the birth control technology available.

Uh yeah about that, incest was most accepted during times of high Christian morality. Just see the many centuries of rule by the Habsburg Dynasty. They even spread their "keeping the bloodline pure" nonsense throughout Europe, to the extent every Monarch waging war in World War 1 was related in a number of ways.

In fact, it was only going forward when the world became more secular and less dependent on monarchs who allegedly received their mandate from "heaven" that incest became more frowned upon.

As I said before, cousin incest was accepted but parent-offspring and sibling-sibling incest was never accepted.

Also "Christian morals don't change with time?" Let me answer with the mother of all belly laughs! One word, 'slavery.' Now tell me with a straight face that Christian attitudes to that have remained consistent since your precious Roman Empire.

Slavery was different back then. In the Roman Empire, most of the lower class were slaves and slaves had various jobs. Some were even doctors. They got to live in their master’s house. After a period of work, they could even become Roman citizens. So slavery then was different from the infamous plantation slavery.

Okay but Plantation slavery was also supported by Christians in it's day.

But Christians in the North opposed plantation slavery.

So there's no one Christian morality, then. (Although, again, the Bible clearly endorses slavery, so Christian arguments against slavery fail.)

Logged

Quote from: Jordan Duram

It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada

Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

And the Christians in the south supported it, they were just as much Christians.

See there is no universally accepted Christian morality. Every Church, every culture have different ideas of what Christian Morality is.

Take my Dad for example. He was a Christian who would have broadly agreed with you about abortion and gay marriage. But he also believed the bible when it said that you must help the poor and interpreted this to mean support for universal health care, the welfare state, and environmentalism, and that Christian like you who oppose or don't care about such things were going against God's will.

Or my Mom, a liberal Christian who supports LGBT rights and say the the rules against it belong in the same category as the ones against eating pork and point out the bible never says anything about abortion.

Okay but Plantation slavery was also supported by Christians in it's day.

But Christians in the North opposed plantation slavery.

So there's no one Christian morality, then. (Although, again, the Bible clearly endorses slavery, so Christian arguments against slavery fail.)

The anti slavery Christians used the argument that slavery in the Roman times was different, in their arguements against plantation slavery. And Collosians 4:1 instructed masters to treat their slaves justly which did not happen in the South so the slave owners were violating Christian morality.

And the Christians in the south supported it, they were just as much Christians.

See there is no universally accepted Christian morality. Every Church, every culture have different ideas of what Christian Morality is.

Take my Dad for example. He was a Christian who would have broadly agreed with you about abortion and gay marriage. But he also believed the bible when it said that you must help the poor and interpreted this to mean support for universal health care, the welfare state, and environmentalism, and that Christian like you who oppose or don't care about such things were going against God's will.

Or my Mom, a liberal Christian who supports LGBT rights and say the the rules against it belong in the same category as the ones against eating pork and point out the bible never says anything about abortion.

You can't say that's any less Christian Morality then yours.

Well your mom falls in the category of heresy so she’s not a true Christian.

Also "Christian morals don't change with time?" Let me answer with the mother of all belly laughs! One word, 'slavery.' Now tell me with a straight face that Christian attitudes to that have remained consistent since your precious Roman Empire.

Slavery was different back then. In the Roman Empire, most of the lower class were slaves and slaves had various jobs. Some were even doctors. They got to live in their master’s house. After a period of work, they could even become Roman citizens. So slavery then was different from the infamous plantation slavery.

And some slaves in plantations had relatively easier jobs in the master's houses, if there's a point hidden in your slavery apologia it's hidden well.

Besides which Christians, at the time used the bible to justify plantation slavery. The Catholic church played a significant role in the Atlantic slave trade and not in opposing it either, here's a handy little timeline and here's a quote from your boy Pope Pius IX in 1866.

Quote

Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons … It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given.

And now we come to the present with our resident Catholic doing the very Catholic thing of sweeping all of that past nasty business under the nearest rug and declaring that they only ever supported a very ancient Roman form of slavery in direct contradiction to centuries of actual Catholic doctrine. Figures.

And the Christians in the south supported it, they were just as much Christians.

See there is no universally accepted Christian morality. Every Church, every culture have different ideas of what Christian Morality is.

Take my Dad for example. He was a Christian who would have broadly agreed with you about abortion and gay marriage. But he also believed the bible when it said that you must help the poor and interpreted this to mean support for universal health care, the welfare state, and environmentalism, and that Christian like you who oppose or don't care about such things were going against God's will.

Or my Mom, a liberal Christian who supports LGBT rights and say the the rules against it belong in the same category as the ones against eating pork and point out the bible never says anything about abortion.

You can't say that's any less Christian Morality then yours.

Well your mom falls in the category of heresy so she’s not a true Christian.

You support Donald Trump. You're not a true Christian.

Logged

There is no plague more evil and vile to watch spread than the plague that is the Von Habsburg dynasty.

Also "Christian morals don't change with time?" Let me answer with the mother of all belly laughs! One word, 'slavery.' Now tell me with a straight face that Christian attitudes to that have remained consistent since your precious Roman Empire.

Slavery was different back then. In the Roman Empire, most of the lower class were slaves and slaves had various jobs. Some were even doctors. They got to live in their master’s house. After a period of work, they could even become Roman citizens. So slavery then was different from the infamous plantation slavery.

And some slaves in plantations had relatively easier jobs in the master's houses, if there's a point hidden in your slavery apologia it's hidden well.

Besides which Christians, at the time used the bible to justify plantation slavery. The Catholic church played a significant role in the Atlantic slave trade and not in opposing it either, here's a handy little timeline and here's a quote from your boy Pope Pius IX in 1866.

Quote

Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons … It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given.

And now we come to the present with our resident Catholic doing the very Catholic thing of sweeping all of that past nasty business under the nearest rug and declaring that they only ever supported a very ancient Roman form of slavery in direct contradiction to centuries of actual Catholic doctrine. Figures.

The plantation slaves that worked in their master’s houses were s minority. The Catholic Church’s role in the slave time was not greater than the role of Protestant countries. And Pope Pius IX’s quote is on slavery in general, not referring to specifically plantation slavery.

The Bible does not say be a socialist. The verses on helping the poor means giving to charity, not having government programs.

Quote

Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech. They sent their disciples to him, with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know you are a truthful man and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. And you are not concerned with anyone's opinion, for you do not regard a person's status. Tell us, then, what is your opinion: Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?" Knowing their malice, Jesus said, "Why are you testing me, you hypocrites? Show me the coin that pays the census tax." Then they handed him the roman coin. He said to them, "Whose image is this and whose inscription?" They replied, "Caesar's." At that he said to them, "Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God." When they heard this they were amazed, and leaving him they went away.

--Matthew 22:15-22, New American Bible

Quote

Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

--Romans 13:1-7, New American Bible

Logged

Quote from: Jordan Duram

It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada

Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

The Bible does not say be a socialist. The verses on helping the poor means giving to charity, not having government programs.

Quote

Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech. They sent their disciples to him, with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know you are a truthful man and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. And you are not concerned with anyone's opinion, for you do not regard a person's status. Tell us, then, what is your opinion: Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?" Knowing their malice, Jesus said, "Why are you testing me, you hypocrites? Show me the coin that pays the census tax." Then they handed him the roman coin. He said to them, "Whose image is this and whose inscription?" They replied, "Caesar's." At that he said to them, "Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God." When they heard this they were amazed, and leaving him they went away.

--Matthew 22:15-22, New American Bible

Quote

Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

--Romans 13:1-7, New American Bible

Paying taxes does not equal socialism, for capitalist nations have taxes.