I’m focusing on the bitterness here. Now, some may think the metal community just consists out of individuals who happen to have this state of mind, but it’s not quite that that simple. Humans live in interaction with each other, not in glass bubbles, even if we tend to experience the positive feelings towards what our group gives positive associations to as entirely our own. That you’re a metalhead does not mean you’re a PROUD WOLF AMONG THE SHEEP, you have the same brain patterns influenced by millions of years of tribe dynamics like all humans and get fosterd with attitudes the same way as all humans. Sure teenagers who already are bitter (most metal fans gets into it in their teens) may easily connect with the state of mind needed to enjoy metal fully, but through it meet other bitter teenagers/young adults who are into it. If metal, usually a bitter (most types of it, you could hardly call power metal and much traditional metal ‘down’) type of aesthetic, is the center of the interaction people (again, mostly young) may want to live up to the music’s emotional state to feel ‘’in it’’. So this bitter state of mind is maintained rather than overcomed, and more upbeat moods/behaviors largely rejected.

However, this angry type of bitterness as a default mindset commonly developed in puberty is something people gradually but almost inevitably grow out of, despite typical metal cultures subtle peer pressure to keep it. It’s a completely unnecessary type of emotional weakness that limits people from gaining as strong wellbeing they could receive through becoming more upbeat and be around people who allows that, and adults know this. In my home country (Sweden) parents don’t give a crap about the content of metals potentially violent/satanic/’’controversial’’ lyrics or the graphic nature of its visual imagery. They may think it’s a bit ridicules, but the actual dislike is towards the culture because they can see from miles it’s a competition on whoever can have the most bitter, rejecting, apathetic attitude. This does not mean people automatically stop enjoy metal though. You can enjoy metals aesthetic states (and it’s visual imagery, album covers etc) without living in the musics emotional state in your everyday life. You don’t have to be down as a person to enjoy black metal or funeral doom, in fact you can be very upbeat as long as you have an enough sophisticated sense of aesthetic perception. But again, not much room for that in the metal culture. Just take a look at metal internet forums and it's very obvious.

Last edited by Hanggud on Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

I am a laid back, easy-going guy, and I have been into metal for more than a few years, being exposed to bands like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden from birth. I know many many people in the metal scene and I don't see them to be bitter or grim all the time or something like that. I know more bitter people outside of the metal scene than in it, more people that seem to hate their lives. Even though the aesthetic can be violent and hateful and self deprecating most people involved in it deeply that I know are happy fulfilled people.

Edit: My favorite genres are black and doom metal, so it's not like I am just into NWOBHM or something either.

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BeforeGod wrote:

CDanner wrote:

When I think of Manowar, I think of Dragonforce, and then I shoot myself in the face.

I'm not quite sure i follow your reasoning. Your hypothesis is that people get into metal because it correlates to the state of mind developed in puberty (bitterness). When we leave that state of mind behind as we grow older, we also fall out of metal culture. You then inject the idea of metal "aesthetic" to explain why as we grow older some of us still enjoy metal culture. You have to do this since your basic premise is that metal culture is infused with bitterness and the emotional state of being bitter is the key factor to fully embrace metal culture. If we are no longer bitter, we can no longer enjoy metal. Is that about right?

Firstly, I think you have a very reductionist view of what metal is and can be. There's no reason why metal cannot be uplifting and empowering (and, as you probably know, many metalheads find metal empowering), to state otherwise would lead to a very tricky road of defining what metal is and is not apart from a style of music. There's also the reductionist view of that all teenagers and, corespondingly, adults are dominated by one state of mind. Emotional states are not about age and we all tend to have very diverse states we circle through. Some empirical evidence of you'll have to explain is the numerous bands where the memebers are well above the age of teenagers.

Secondly, you don't take into account the function of metal as an expression of beloning even though you talk about interaction and culture. Metal might very well be a positive expression of "being together" even though the lyrical content is "negative" (which in itself is a value judgement I'm very sceptic about). During all my years of concerts, festivals and beer drinking with metalheads the one thing that's always struck me is that metal, in general, is a) something positive for most, b) crowded with some of the nicest people you'll find.

Thirdly, the "content" of metal can be seen as having a cathartic effect. Even though I disagree that metal is inherently negative, there are vast examples of content that express negative world-views and whatnot. The reason could be that metal is just the proper forum for expressing thoughts and views that might censured elswhere. And in expressing them via metal you don't have to express them elswhere. It then follows that "biterness" of metal is actually something that follows of metalheads need to live a positive life. This is actually true of some I know who've been active in the metal scene since the late 1980's.

I don't listen to Metal to feel angry and resentful. Also, I'm almost 30yrs old. I really don't see myself growing out of it any time soon. In fact, I would often take long breaks from Metal and come back into full force later, and search for more lost classics, and potentially new worthwhile material (few and far between). The problem is that I still find Metal to be musically interesting to listen to. I guess that's a big problem with growing up, eh?

While Hanggud's argumeent might be oversimplified I don't feel that it is entierly off base. In my experience many people who are into metal started listening when they were angry disillusioned youths who were somewhat on the edges of society.

I started listening to metal because it was the only type of music that spoke to what I felling at the time. It was nice to know that there were other people who felt the same way that I did.

However that kind of anger tend to fizzle out by the time you are into your thirties. I still listen because to me metal is part of my overall intrest in rock music and having liked metal in my youth I'm still open minded enough listen before I decide that I don't like something. It does mean that I tend to listen to the less extreme forms of metal now.

So overall I would have to say that my personal experience tends to support the OP's arguement.

Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 5:48 pmPosts: 497Location: United States of America

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:36 pm

Either they get older and "move on" or they were just into the trend at the time. Me being into all kinds of music, still can't completely call myself just a metalhead, for me it's too specific of a term although metal is one of my favorite genres of music.

As far as growing out of certain bands and styles of music; sure people go through that as they get older, but I find that those styles or bands that you liked in any portion of your existence once you hear them again, bring you back to the time and that's the great thing about music. I feel that those bands and albums are like old friends, once you listen to them again almost no linear time has passed between the last time you've listened to them.

But if you are really into music, you never totally grow out of it. I still can relate to the angst and the hate aspect. Actually, I always used music as a crutch to express my feelings, and usually if I'm mad I'll turn something on and I'll lay those emotions in on the music and usually afterward, I feel mellow and much better. I've been doing that since I was in my teens, and now almost 30 years later, still practice this.

To address "the bitterness" issue, some people grow more mellow and some grow more bitter. Although I've always been a pretty mellow guy, that's because the music calmed me. In reality, I think I'm deep down still extremely bitter (even moreso disallusioned) but now just more experienced with life in getting older and realizing that all that shit really doesn't matter in the long run. So I have fun with it now.

But I'm glad I grew up when I did. Experiencing hardcore punk and thrash come in when I was a teen was an amazing experience and it helped me through some difficult times. And again like an old friend, it still does.

Eh I don't know. The feelings that drive me towards metal are mostly energy and excitement. Those types of feelings never die. Also, the anger and the hatred expressed in the music is still felt in me to this day; I always saw the music as art; there's no reason for me to grow out of something like that.

I take the more existential view that people are always going to be fonder of what they grew up listening to, since the music was directly associated with such a large part of their lives.

If someone grew up listening to Pop, then discovered Metal in their mid-teens, it is very conceivable that they will revert to Pop sometime down the road, if only for nostalgia's sake. But for someone who grew up listening to Metal to just stop - that tends to involve extenuating circumstances.

Think about it - every city in America has at least one 'classic rock' station. They cater to the soon-to-be-retired who have literally been listening to the same music since 1960. It would take a miracle to get these people to stop listening to The Wall.

There seems to be an implicit premise to the opening argument that metal is inherently immature, which is silly.

No I don't think that is what is being said or even implied. I interept it to mean that many of the themes and feelings of metal tend to resonate with younger people which to my mind is not the same thing.

I don't really believe that people 'grow out' of metal unless either:
1. They weren't really that into it to begin with.
2. They were influenced by those around them.

I run into old metalheads all the time around here. You might never know that they were metalheads, though, because they had to cut their hair and sell their CDs for some stupid reason (i.e., girlfriend, wife, kids, etc.). Often, these guys still like metal, they just feel that they have to hide it or they don't think it's that important to flaunt it. Honestly, I believe that metalheads are metalheads forever if they're metalheads at all - they'll always appreciate metal unless something really drastic happens, I think.

If someone grew up listening to Pop, then discovered Metal in their mid-teens, it is very conceivable that they will revert to Pop sometime down the road, if only for nostalgia's sake. But for someone who grew up listening to Metal to just stop - that tends to involve extenuating circumstances.

True. Not trying to be funny here - I often listen to Abba, the Spice Girls, etc, bands I grew up listening to and dancing to when I was a kid.

That said, however, I can't really see myself growing out of metal. like someone else said, I listen to it for the energy and the excitement it gives me. You don't grow out of those things. Anger,bitterness, heartbreak, rebellion...these things are mostly temporary for a lot of people. Enjoying the music you listen to because you find it exciting and just goddamn fun is not.

For a lot of people the initial bitterness doesn't disappear, they just hide it. Same goes for emotions of disillusionment, aggression, and other things that are typically associated with metal. A way to hide those emotions can and in fact is for some folks listening to metal, and as I have personally seen, metal can even be the reason why these emotions start hiding. I don't think it has as much to do with being a kid as some make it out to be, because there are a number of other reasons why people get into this genre. Also what the OP seems to be ignoring is that a large percentage of metalheads don't even listen to metal because of the aforementioned emotions ...

There seems to be an implicit premise to the opening argument that metal is inherently immature, which is silly.

No I don't think that is what is being said or even implied. I interept it to mean that many of the themes and feelings of metal tend to resonate with younger people which to my mind is not the same thing.

youth=/=immature

Hanggud wrote:

However, this angry type of bitterness as a default mindset commonly developed in puberty is something people gradually but almost inevitably grow out of, despite typical metal cultures subtle peer pressure to keep it. It’s a completely unnecessary type of emotional weakness that limits people from gaining as strong wellbeing they could receive through becoming more upbeat and be around people who allows that, and adults know this.

This passage is quite clearly derogatory towards "youth" emotions and claims that metal promotes them. The meaning is obvious.

True in many cases probably, but saying that if people don’t like something they used to they automatically ''weren't really that into it'' is just not true. People tastes can change even about things they once felt very strongly about.

Abominatrix wrote:

Most people don't so much grow out of being angry as bitter. Instead, they grow into the spirit of denial.

They grow out of being so emotionally weak. You don't have to be in denial to be happy, you can be fully aware of problems but still don't get so carried away by them as to get angry/bitter (although those emotions never die out completely of course).

Last edited by Hanggud on Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

There seems to be an implicit premise to the opening argument that metal is inherently immature, which is silly.

No I don't think that is what is being said or even implied. I interept it to mean that many of the themes and feelings of metal tend to resonate with younger people which to my mind is not the same thing.

youth=/=immature

Hanggud wrote:

However, this angry type of bitterness as a default mindset commonly developed in puberty is something people gradually but almost inevitably grow out of, despite typical metal cultures subtle peer pressure to keep it. It’s a completely unnecessary type of emotional weakness that limits people from gaining as strong wellbeing they could receive through becoming more upbeat and be around people who allows that, and adults know this.

This passage is quite clearly derogatory towards "youth" emotions and claims that metal promotes them. The meaning is obvious.

I would actually take this forum as an example of a metal community with particularly negative vibes as whole, but it's nothing to judge the entire metal culture after.

I don't really understand how this forum is so "negative" and has the reputation it seems to have some other places. Because they have rules and don't let people post spam/retarded posts? There are people on every metal forum who don't like certain things and that's always going to come up in any thread, but overall the conversation is not really "negative."

True in many cases probably, but saying that if people don’t like something they used to they automatically ''weren't really that into it'' is just not true. People tastes can change even about things they once felt very strongly about.

Your point is valid, I just meant to convey the idea that, when people's tastes change, it is because something happened in their lives that caused it. I don't think that tastes change spontaneously but, rather, that it is a result of some external factor, which I assume almost always takes the form of a social influence exerted on someone. I don't mean to say that those who change weren't in some way responsible also, only that it wouldn't have happened without other people subtly or overtly influencing their tastes and way of life.

With that statement you just implied positivity being associated with being spammy/retarded.

Most forums have rules and don't tolerate spam/retarded posts as well. If this forum is particulary strict to begin with, that's not why it have it's reputation.

Thats not what I implied at all. Not only that, but I ended it with a question mark. I just theorized that perhaps the perception, on some level but not entirely, comes from people who come here say a bunch of retarded shit, get their posts locked and get themselves banned and then act like everyone here is an "elitist" prick.

The sort of metal I like is far from depressing. It's life affirming, positive stuff about strength, willpower and belonging. There's a reason people like Rob Halford and Biff Byford are still unashamedly devoted to heavy metal, and I recognise and admire that kind of integrity within them. I hardly see how you could grow out of positive ideals.

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John_Sunlight wrote:

Gif logos are a rare and special thing. They should be reserved only for truly exceptional and rare and special and important bands, bands like Blind Guardian and... Blind Guardian. This should be in the rules.

I find most of the people who "grow out of" or "mature beyond" metal never really understood it in the first place. They claim they're above a strawman of metal cliches, such as Satan-worshiping, childish gore, cheesy fantasy, etc., and are now into "more intelligent" music like indie rock and underground rap.

I say fuck 'em, the genre's better off without the dead weight anyway. Celebrate! We lost another moron!

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MorbidBlood wrote:

So the winner is Destruction and Infernal Overkill is the motherfucking skullcrushing poserkilling satan-worshiping 666 FUCK YOU greatest german thrash record.

They may think it’s a bit ridicules, but the actual dislike is towards the culture because they can see from miles it’s a competition on whoever can have the most bitter, rejecting, apathetic attitude.

They see it? They must have distorted vision or something, as they are seeing illusions.

It is odd that people ask this question regarding metal but when it comes to rap ,not so much.

Do you think people leave the rap culture behind or not.

I listened to Rap before I was introduced to Metal. I never want to go back to Rap. Ever. But I recognise it as my starting point in my music. Because I went Rap > Nu Metal > Iron Maiden > where I am now basically.

Because every person is different/individual, leaving Metal Culture/Music is dependent on yourself. It may be influenced by many things but in the end the decision is yours. There is many reasons why people "grow out" of metal. Something major might happen in your life to spark that change. Think about how you got into metal and what was happening in your life at that time. I know that for me, my change into metal was semi-caused by a life changing event.

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Khomaniac wrote:

I guess since you're not a Mastodon, you automatically have the best taste in music.