Devotee (1): Are the animals complacent with their hellish condition of life?

Prabhupada: Animal?

Devotee (1): Yes. Like the dog. Is he happy to be a dog?

Prahupada: Yes. Everyone is happy.

Dr. Patel: There is one story in regard to this, sir... [break]

Prabhupada: The answer? You have got the answer?

Devotee (1): Excuse me?

Dr. Patel: No. He was not. He was not attentive. I answered on his behalf with that story.

Bhagavata: Once that happened to Indra, isn't it, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Anyone, in any condition of life, he thinks that he is happy. That is maya.

Dr. Patel: If all the five holes of indriyas are made to look outside, get our pleasure from out, if they have turned within and get pleasure from yourself, then you are happy. That is in Kathopanisad.

Prabhupada: You can see practically. People are living in, what is called, that zone, where everything is ice?

Devotees: The North Pole.

Prabhupada: They are thinking happy. They do not come out.

Bhagavata: Eskimos.

Prabhupada: I have got practical experience. In my childhood I used to go with my father for some purchasing some bhauma(?) flour in the interior districts. So there was one servant engaged. One day he did not come. So my father asked me, "He is living in there, in that cottage. You can go and ask him." So I went to his cottage. Practically there was no roof, and rain was dropping. So I saw him in a very bad condition. Then I asked him, "Why don't you come to Calcutta with us?" So he replied, "No sir, we cannot go, leaving home. (laughter) This is home." I have got practical experience. "Home sweet home." Janani janma-bhumis ca svargad api gariyasi: Everyone is thinking that his birthplace and his mother is better than the heaven. That is the psychology. So everyone, however abominable... Everyone is living in abominable condition. That's a fact. But everyone is thinking that "Who is happier than me?" Everyone. This is called maya. Unless he thinks, he cannot live.

Devotee (1): What is the throwing potency of maya?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (1): It is described that there are two potencies of maya.

Dr. Patel: Mam eva prapadyante mayam etan taranti te.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (1): What is an example of the throwing potency of maya?

Prabhupada: Throwing potency means somebody comes to take Krsna consciousness and maya will dictate, "Why you have come here? Go and enjoy life outside." And he goes away. That is throwing.

Dr. Patel: Crying?

Prabhupada: Throwing, that gets him out. This is throwing. And this is called... What is called? The Sanskrit? Praksepatmika.

Dr. Patel: Prakseka?

Prabhupada: Praksepatmika.

Dr. Patel: Oh, praksepatmika.

Prabhupada: Yes. And another is avaranatmika.

Dr. Patel: Avarana.

Prabhupada: Avarana. He is in the most abominable condition, and he is thinking he is very happy. This is avaranatmika, covering him to see in the real position. Otherwise we are asking everyone that "You come here. I am giving you room. Take prasadam. Chant Hare Krsna. Read these books." "No. Why shall I come?" What is the difficulty here? But nobody will come. He will rot in the home-anxiety -- how to maintain, how to... This is going on. This is called praksepatmika, avaranatmika. He will prefer rotting as hog and dog, but he will never prefer to live as Krsna conscious. This is maya. So many people are there on the beach. You invite them, "Please come to our place. Live nicely. We shall give you nice room, nice prasadam. Chant Hare Krsna." Nobody will come.

Dr. Patel: It is good that they are not coming. Otherwise you won't have this place...

Prabhupada: No, no. We have enough place. We are not depending on Dr. Patel, but Krsna. (laughter)

Devotees: Haribol! Haribol!

Dr. Patel: You rate me very badly.

Prabhupada: No, because you are saying like that. You do not know that I started this business without nothing, you see, with practical nothing. I offered Mr. Nair that "I will give you two lakhs, and the balance I'll give you in three years." So who will believe? "He is a beggar, and he promises to give me fifteen lakhs of rupees within three years." Who will believe that? He knew that "He will not be able to pay. So whatever two lakhs, three lakhs he gives, that will be mine. That's all. Bas." And I was thinking, "He is such a nice gentleman that he will take money, little, little, and I will collect and pay. He is a nice gentleman," I was thinking. And he was thinking, "He's a great fool, (laughter) that he is offering me two lakhs, three lakhs, and he will never be able to pay me balance." So this was the transaction beginning.

Dr. Patel: He had made such transaction before also, I think.

Prabhupada: Yes. He knew that. I thought, "He is a very nice man. He'll take money one after another, so let me take it." This was the beginning.

Dr. Patel: I think he died before you completed the transaction. He died, no?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So both Jagamanta, Hapebo,(?) all of them I will one day drive and then you'll...

Prabhupada: But as soon as they will not get tea, they will go away. You may bring all the Bombay residents, and when they will see there is no tea, they will go away. (laughter)

Nayanabhirama: Srila Prabhupada, that happened in Vrndavana once.

Prabhupada: I know that. That is the trouble.

Bhagavata: They would not stay in the guesthouse because they could not make their tea.

Nayanabhirama: He said, "Without tea I cannot live." So he went away.

Dr. Patel: Where? Here this Vrndavana?

Prabhupada: No, that I have allowed, that they can make their own tea.

Dr. Patel: You don't allow the tea here in the...?

Prabhupada: No.

Brahmananda: They can make their own tea. There's a special area for that.

Dr. Patel: Many of these boys must have taking tea in past. How they could stop it?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Dr. Patel: Many of them must be taking...

Prabhupada: No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: Not now, before.

Prabhupada: Oh, before they are taking anything. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: How could they stop it? By virtue of the strength of the mind. That man, if he has got no strength of mind, he should not...

Prabhupada: That is Krsna conscious. The government spent millions of dollars to stop LSD habit. But when they come to me, I say, "You cannot do it." They immediately stopped. Therefore U.S. government is sympathetic to this movement. They are surprised how these drug-addicted men are becoming servant of Krsna. One Dr. Judah, he has written a book about us, that the "wonderful..."

Bhagavata: ...leaving the four sinful activities. Then one can develop Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: No, this is practicing. This is practicing. Unless one is... Yesam tu anta-gatam papam. Unless one is free from sinful activities, one cannot understand God. It is not possible. God is not so cheap.

Dr. Patel: Practice and vairagya both are necessary, not only vairagya. No?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dr. Patel: Practice and vairagya both are necessary.

Prabhupada: Vairagya means when you are not addicted to sinful life. That is vairagya. People have got attachment for sinful activities. [break] ...deve bhagavati bhakti-yoga-prayojitah, janayaty asu vairagyam. That is the vairagya way. You cannot practice vairagya without Vasudeva's shelter.

Dr. Patel: Vairagya generates by extreme bhakti or by extreme knowledge. Not otherwise. Knowledge is generated by bhakti, no doubt, but then you must have complete knowledge of what is this and what is that.

Prabhupada: Without bhakti, knowledge is artificial, because knowledge means to accept the Supreme Lord as Supreme. That is knowledge.

Dr. Patel: That is knowledge. And then this is also... From that knowledge, when you know that this is all false, then it sort of, in a sense, generated within you, to be...

Prabhupada: That knowledge is described in the Bhagavad-gita, mayayapahrta-jnana. The so-called knowledge is useless. It has no value. mayayapahrta-jnana. What is the test? Na mam prapadyante: "If he had knowledge, he would have surrendered to Me," but he does not do so.

Dr. Patel: Jnanavan mam prapadyante. That is knowledge. Jnana means knowledge. That knowledge is the Supreme.

Prabhupada: But that knowledge means actually jnanavan. Otherwise it is false knowledge. mayayapahrta-jnana. If you do not know what is God, then what is the meaning of your knowledge?

Bhagavata: You explain in the Gita that

bahunam janmanam ante

jnanavan mam prapadyante

vasudevah sarvam iti

sa mahatma sudurlabhah

[Bg. 7.19]

Prabhupada: (aside) Hare Krsna. That is knowledge. Therefore so many mahatmas, sadhus, yogis, they are all useless, all useless because they have no bhakti. Simply artificially cheating people. [break] This is a society of cheaters and cheated. If you want to be cheated, there are many cheaters who will come and cheat you. That's all.

Bhagavata: Just like the Guru Maharaj-ji. Now the mother is denouncing. She is saying he is no more qualified to be Bhagavan. Now his brother, he is Bhagavan.

Prabhupada: That's all, anyway, a third class.

Dr. Patel: I think we should not talk about this. Talk something about Bhagavad-gita and Bhagavat. Then, sir?

Prabhupada: Yes. These people are third-class men. Hare Krsna.

Dr. Patel: mayam etan taranti te

Prabhupada: Jaya. Hare Krsna. [break] ...explained in Bhagavad-gita. Unfortunately the rascals will not take it. That is the difficulty.

Dr. Patel: In my time, when, your time, I mean our time, in the school there was a compulsion of learning the Mahabharata and Ramayana. Now these modern principals,(?) they don't know anything about it. Absolutely there is no knowledge. My daughter said, "What is Ramayana?" I had to look at a English edition of Ramayana and give her Mahabharata. That is what they are teaching now in the schools. So this race is going bankrupt. What about knowing about Bhagavad-gita and Bhagavata? They don't know simple Mahabharata.

Prabhupada: [break] ...city one house with twenty rooms on the riverside.

Dr. Patel: I was told that Lasteri's house, you know, sir, Charpak Lasteri.(?)

Prabhupada: What do you think will be the price?

Dr. Patel: I don't know about price, sir. But their prices are as high as in Bombay. Whose is this house? Who is the owner? [break]

Prabhupada: ...jivanti. The trees, they live many, many hundreds of thousands of years more than men.

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Does it mean he is sinless? (laughter)

Indian (1): He's a good man. They are doing good. They are doing good.

Prabhupada: He is... It is most condemned life, the trees. They cannot move one inch. They have to suffer all these natural disturbances. One who is too much sinful, he is condemned to stand up here for five thousand years.

Indian (1): (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: Dvaraka, sir. They had a plan to go to Dvaraka.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Hare Krsna.

Dr. Patel: You have to take me. You told me you will take me. I am waiting for it.

Bhagavata: When I was in Dvaraka I stayed at the Birla guesthouse, and they said that any time you come you can stay there in Mr. Birla's room right on the oceanfront, very nice room.

Prabhupada: This time is good, Dvaraka?

Dr. Patel: We can go by train to Braman. (?)

Bhagavata: We have to take a long trip in the car from Jangagara(?) to Dvaraka. [break]

Prabhupada: ...like this place. And I have seen London, New York. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: I have not seen Hardwar myself.

Bhagavata: Hardwar, there is also very new asrama that was built up there only a few years ago called Africa asrama, in Hardwar. And the sannyasi there is very well known to me and he also said any time you come you can stay there at his place. Very nice asrama.

Dr. Patel: Hardwar there are many places to stay.

Indian man (2): Even this, our (indistinct) asrama people have got a very big area there. Nearly a hundred rooms are there.

Dr. Patel: Others, also. You can... [break]

Prabhupada: Patel, he has got.

Dr. Patel: It is not Patel. This Das and company. [break] There must be a temple coming. Do you know?

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes.

Dr. Patel: All Bengalis must be the member. Is it a fact that this temple, Jagannatha Puri, was originally a temple for Buddhists and then it was converted into... No?

Prabhupada: This is all these speculators, rascals.

Dr. Patel: Who are the chief men in the temple committee of Jagannatha temple?

Prabhupada: Government.

Dr. Patel: No, no.

Prabhupada: Yes, government.

Dr. Patel: How can they be? Government, no. Temples are never controlled by government.

Prabhupada: Although the king is there...

Yasomatinandana: The government of the king was controlling. Now the government is.

Dr. Patel: Which king?

Prabhupada: The magistrate is the president of the matha.

Dr. Patel: Dvaraka temple was under control of Maharaja of Baroda, but he appointed a committee of Vaisnavas to control it. It was completely free. [break] (laughing) You have been very unkind to people.

Prabhupada: He is a first-class Carvaka, he is.

Bhagavata: The dog is also trying to defend himself against the Lord.

Prabhupada: No. That is not the question. Question is anyone who does not know what is God, he is a Carvaka, that's all. Mudha nabhijanati mam ebhyah param ayayam. He's a Carvaka. That's all. The same bodily concept. Russian, American, Chinese. Then? Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13].

Indian man (3): They are innocent. They are not...

Dr. Patel: Innocent?

Prabhupada: No, they are not innocent; they are stupid. (laughter) They are not innocent. They will never agree...

Indian man (3): There are so many Indians, they are also not...

Dr. Patel: No, they are also like that.

Prabhupada: Huh? The simple thing explained in the Bhagavad-gita... Simple thing explained in the Bhagavad-gita, asmin dehe dehinam: "Within this body there is the proprietor." So they do not understand it. Huh?

Indian man (3): That comes after, after...

Indian man (4): Guru, you should go? Then only perfect knowledge he will get.

Yasomatinandana: Guru is there. Why don't they come?

Prabhupada: Yes. Guru is there, but they won't come. They won't come.

Dr. Patel: That jagat guru is, you are, sir.

Prabhupada: It is injunction of the sastra. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. But who is coming to guru? Guru is canvassing whole world, "Please come to me."

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) [break]

Prabhupada: ...I am in Bombay, but how many Gujaratis are my chela? There is only one Gujarati.

Dr. Patel: One is sufficient. He represents the whole Gujaratis.

Prabhupada: That's all right. (laughter)

Brahmananda: And Prabhupada had to rescue him from America. (laughter)

Prabhupada: That is the difficulty. I will have to preach, bringing men from America and Europe. Nobody is coming here. Everyone is talking big, big.

Indian man (3): God has to go to burden this one also?

Prabhupada: Eh? No, no. This is the difficulty, that whatever I am doing... Therefore I am very much in anxiety when the government says, "Now you go away. Your visa is finished."

Dr. Patel: From here?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Your visa from here?

Prabhupada: Mine, no. My disciples! Dragging.

Dr. Patel: Well, government... I have heard like this, but government think that in this group there may be some those C.I.A. people. I don't know whether they are right...

Prabhupada: Let government supplies some men who does not belong to the C.I.A. And where is that? That is all.

Dr. Patel: That is what they say.

Prabhupada: They may say anything nonsense.

Dr. Patel: That all these, all may not be sadhus. There may be C.I.A., one of them. They'll find out what these fellows are, and then they will do all that.

Bhagavata: Well, first one of their C.I.D. will have to live like we live, and then we can see.

Prabhupada: No, no. Actually Indians are not interested. That is the fact. They: "What is this Hare Krsna? We have chanted the Hare Krsna for hundreds of years. What is the effect?" That is the...

Indian man (5): This is the main problem. [break]

Dr. Patel: That they are doing, this and that. I have to explain them that "You are all humbug because they don't know you well; you don't know them well."

Prabhupada: They will create nuisance because there is no sense. It is better nuisance. Who is coming to make sense, chanting Hare Krsna? Nobody is coming. Then nuisance is better than no sense. (Bengali:) Naya mameche khana mama baba:(?) "To possess no mama, it is better to have a blind mama." So they are blind mama. That's all right. Where is the real mama? All mamas are...

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) [break]

Prabhupada: Mama means mother's brother.

Dr. Patel: No, but here in Gujarat... (Gujarati) Mama means he is a fool. [break]

Devotee (2): Now is not nice. The fruit is not nice.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi)

Devotee (2): You speak in Italian.

Indian man (6): I speak little only.

Devotee (2): Speak in Italian.

Dr. Patel: Don't worry. [break]

Prabhupada: If he comes to your house you must receive him properly. Grham satrum api praptam visvas tam akuto-bhayam. (end)

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