I dunno bout you folks, but I'm just lonely and would like someone to share my life with. There is no great romantic quest or seeking inner fulfillment involved here. I just want a friend to talk to and a warm body to snuggle up to at night.

And I really, really, really hate dating as a means of getting there. Dating is not natural for me, so I inherently have to pretend I'm someone I'm not in order to meet someone. It just doesn't make sense to me. And the whole process is weird and uncomfortable.

Kiddo. Read your own post. Sweetheart, it's all about you: that you're lonely, want a warm body, and a friend.

You know that old chestnut? If you want a friend, be a friend.

Don't force love, is about all i can say. I guess. Because if something is meant to be, it will be; if not, no amount of wishing or wanting, no power in heaven, earth or hell will make it yours. In which case, why yearn? Let it come naturally.

If dating is awkward, it is perhaps because you desire an outcome too much. Just relax and go with the flow, expecting nothing?

ah, my dear pink. I get that a lot too. The trouble with being elemental fire. But that's what standards are for, ya know. You can't love to the point of self destruction. If they're attracted, but afraid, then really, would you be happy with them in the end? It's no point being angry, or bitter, i guess. Men can be like that. Fickle. Afraid. But as women, the power is in us to choose what to accept, and what not to. How can you be a real woman, to a man who's only half a man? Peace, lady.

You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
They called me the hyacinth girl.
Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

Kiddo. Read your own post. Sweetheart, it's all about you: that you're lonely, want a warm body, and a friend.

You know that old chestnut? If you want a friend, be a friend.

Don't force love, is about all i can say. I guess. Because if something is meant to be, it will be; if not, no amount of wishing or wanting, no power in heaven, earth or hell will make it yours. In which case, why yearn? Let it come naturally.

I've actually given that exact same advice many, many times. That isn't quite what I am looking for. I'm very aware that many others have the same needs and are seeking the same thing. The problem is I don't have an effective process for finding those people, because dating sucks.

If dating is awkward, it is perhaps because you desire an outcome too much. Just relax and go with the flow, expecting nothing?

It's awkward because it is unnatural. I explained all the reasons I don't like it. I don't like assessing people. I don't like being assessed. It isn't something I would normally do, so it isn't me. I just hate it.

In one of my fiery entanglements, I remember turning on my ENTP (when I found out he had a fiancee... I won't even go into that) and demanding, "What is it?! What is it about HER... tell me..." He didn't say anything, just sat there staring at me like I was kicking him in the stomach. "Does she challenge you at all?" I asked. "No," he said quietly.

She must be so well-behaved. Easy to manage. Acceptable to the parents. NORMAL. whatever... He should have left me alone. Instead he spent a year being coiled around me and frustrating himself.

In one of my fiery entanglements, I remember turning on my ENTP (when I found out he had a fiancee... I won't even go into that) and demanding, "What is it?! What is it about HER... tell me..." He didn't say anything, just sat there staring at me like I was kicking him in the stomach. "Does she challenge you at all?" I asked. "No," he said quietly.

She must be so well-behaved. Easy to manage. Acceptable to the parents. NORMAL. whatever... He should have left me alone. Instead he spent a year being coiled around me and frustrating himself.

Ugh... I've been in the same spot a few times in the past year. The guy gets so drawn to my ability to challenge him and next thing you know they decide to go with some Bebe-wearing bimbo because her demands in love are simpler to deal with (Buy me this, that, call me every night, let me tease you endlessly, let's not talk about politics/philosophy/religion etc).

What I want in a relationship goes well beyond the material and even for the most intellectual dude that's too much "drama" because they're not used to a girl being confrontational and direct. I've had problems lately with guys who were previously tough and non-coddling to me going all mushy and annoying, completely turning me off with their thinking that I'm incapable of handling their tough self once we're in a relationship. If anything, the toughness, the arguments and passion, were what drew me in to begin with and kept me interested. They're shooting themselves in the foot this way, oh well.

That's sucky he even had a fiancee and still dragged it out like that with you and worse yet is that he didn't have sound reasons for why he was with her. If he felt like he was being kicked in the stomach that's probably because he knew for leading you on, he pretty much deserved that much justice for kicking you in the heart.

Pink. Sad to say, it's a common experience. What i've learnt: it simply means that he wasn't thinking of his fiancee/gf/wife/whatever, or you. But only of himself: enjoy the fire on one side, the well-behaved 'wifey' on the other. It's complete self-centredness, really. However he may justify it.

four words only: ain't worth it, man.

You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
They called me the hyacinth girl.
Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

I dunno bout you folks, but I'm just lonely and would like someone to share my life with. There is no great romantic quest or seeking inner fulfillment involved here. I just want a friend to talk to and a warm body to snuggle up to at night.

And I really, really, really hate dating as a means of getting there. Dating is not natural for me, so I inherently have to pretend I'm someone I'm not in order to meet someone. It just doesn't make sense to me. And the whole process is weird and uncomfortable.

So I'm wondering. What do you INFJs do to make dating bearable?

i agree, dating sucks. i honestly don't think i've ever really 'dated' -- it does seem way too unnatural. on the other hand, if you are interested in someone, you have to figure out a way to hang out with them more...not necessarily going to movies and such, but something. but you don't have to pretend you're someone you're not. just act natural and hang out; see where it goes.

with my last GF, we basically just started hanging out all the time. our first kiss was completely natural -- you know when you just meet eyes and it's obvious? yeah, that's how it was. anyways, we were hanging out like all day everyday for a couple of weeks, and i finally said, "so...let's be boyfriend and girlfriend". she was a tiny bit resistant at first (since she'd never had a meaningful relationship before), but the next day decided she was down.

anyway, nothing really changed once we put the label on it. the connection was intensely strong right from the start. it just felt completely comfortable and right for both of us, and both of us knew the other felt the same way.

Ugh... I've been in the same spot a few times in the past year. The guy gets so drawn to my ability to challenge him and next thing you know they decide to go with some Bebe-wearing bimbo because her demands in love are simpler to deal with (Buy me this, that, call me every night, let me tease you endlessly, let's not talk about politics/philosophy/religion etc).

Sweet John Brown's body... WHY does this sound so @$*%ing familiar?

They always look like they're going to their doom too, like they're being nagged, like they can't stand the shrill demands of the "ball and chain", and yet they STAY WITH THEM. What. The Heck. Is THAT.

Safety first?
Securing insecure masculinity?
The right to complain because your gf is a shrew?!

Grow a set!

His best friend collared me one day as I was leaving the garage and said, "Hey. She wears the pants. Know what I mean?"

Like that makes it all better or something. Ok. If I was a pushy vapid bitch, I might get somewhere? NIiiiiiice.

What I want in a relationship goes well beyond the material and even for the most intellectual dude that's too much "drama" because they're not used to a girl being confrontational and direct. I've had problems lately with guys who were previously tough and non-coddling to me going all mushy and annoying, completely turning me off with their thinking that I'm incapable of handling their tough self once we're in a relationship. If anything, the toughness, the arguments and passion, were what drew me in to begin with and kept me interested. They're shooting themselves in the foot this way, oh well.

My best friend is a female ENTJ and she reports similar problems. I can't begin to grasp how difficult it must be for a Te primary female to find a man who's their intellectual equal, same force of nature AND is a good guy. She tends to attract jackasses who just want to subdue her and it disgusts me.

That's sucky he even had a fiancee and still dragged it out like that with you and worse yet is that he didn't have sound reasons for why he was with her. If he felt like he was being kicked in the stomach that's probably because he knew for leading you on, he pretty much deserved that much justice for kicking you in the heart.

I felt like an idiot. I really did. I'm usually so careful and good at keeping myself in check, and I thought he was on the level. We couldn't avoid being around each other (work situation) and even when I did try to avoid him, he'd lose his mind when I was away (the physical contact would ramp up when he couldn't get to me), and our co-workers made it worse because they wanted the two of us together and talked about it all the time. It was brutalizing. And of course, when I figured out he was taken, I couldn't disengage my feelings, so it was pretty messy.