At some point when you're at a point of "the teeming orc hordes were just 2000 some odd dudes" "you possibly personally control cities of tens of thousands of people, but your own personal resources don't reflect that" and "this map of hundreds of thousands of people in this vast area is represented by this fractional thing", why use the particular setting?

Because it's a nice backdrop setting and having the players micromanage things in the actual numbers involved would be exhausting.

Why wouldn't it be a force equal to my own? This is a request: could you please respond to my posts less combatatively and assuming the worst?

I assume you don't consider you and I equal in power because you're arguing you and 1 other PC can defend against me and every other PC coming for you and this massive "Godfather" treasury you're trying to set up. It's hard not to assume the worst when you do that and your reasoning is "I have the DM power of unlimited NPC's" This imaginary conflict between you and Osiris vs everyone else isn't even my point though. I'm trying to point out how bad an idea considering all the resources riches not in control of the PC's is.

but again, even just canonically, even when they lost, the orcs invaded in such vast and teeming numbers that the wars dragged on for years, even with things like throwing mercenaries at them and etc. Gods still died in buckets. Set still killed Osiris not long after it. With the orcs particularly in a stronger starting position than even that in this case and Unther and Mulhorand's god situation being changed up, I'm largely trying to cohere what actions remain viable and what the shape of the society still is.

Anywho..

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I'm trying to point out how bad an idea considering all the resources riches not in control of the PC's is.

It's no different than the truly colossal horde the orcs otherwise rolled up with that would seem to be split up under various orcs in this situation, that counterbalances such things. I feel like you're really selectively reading my posts.

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I assume you don't consider you and I equal in power because you're arguing you and 1 other PC can defend against me and every other PC coming for you and this massive "Godfather" treasury you're trying to set up.

Despite my having said "why would the three of our characters be the only people doing anything?" And my responding to Zaer saying that stuff is there but inaccessible with "that's as fine by me?"

I said this:

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That's as fine, just looking for, how to put it, a sense of how a very changed setting would function as far as the image of it and just some narrative rigor.

Miroque: We use NPC wealth levels (based on DMG) on followers and cohorts. Unless you take wealth perk which upgrades it to PC based. All levels HD are maxed out.

Now to pharaoh and treasury; as mentioned already it would be damn huge headache to slap players '1 million followers' and micro manage them. Even if as god kings/queens they should have realistically have that number of followers.

As mentioned the pharaoh is absolute ruler in Mulhorand but in kid's case Re has not blessed/entered fraction of his power unto the child so lacking divine powers the child is considered not ruling body of the kingdom as of yet. So the power of pharaoh has been split up in decision making with god kings (which one may be Re's favored god king atm but it does not indicate a higher moral authority than other god kings to reign Mulhorand). Set naturally has no place in council as even before killing Osiris Set does not get along with others. Also one reason why Set followers are in underground and hiding as other orders would hunt them down.

What comes to PC's using said resources kill 'other PC' I call it off hand not possible for balance reasons than logic reasons. My answer was meant to help set the game in Mulhorand/Unther side in fluff wise to explain 'why I do not have unlimited amount of resources' and so forth. Despite fluff and lore you play what you got via charsheet. The income you gain from non-combat followers can indicate resources available through the vast wealth of Unther/Mulhorand empires (and orcs case just having numbers advantage).

Personally, I'm very happy to focus on the conflict between the forces of the PCs, and between the PCs and minor NPC factions such as the villages full of helpless elves I'm going to subjugate and enslave. Maybe later in the game, there will be an assessment of how our individual progress has affected the greater geopolitical situation, but I don't think it should be the focus at first, because, as has been discussed, that's just waaaay too complicated (and unsexy).

I could show you where you said things that lead me to have the feelings I do, but then this just degrades into an argument about the idea of arguing about something. Actually when I try to look past that I see you're coming from a lore point and I'm coming from a mechanical point.

Then there is the other separate issue of how much of the God king is also the deity. Somewhere in there I think we can work that out with using examples and making sure we are using the same terms to describe the same things.

I do have reason to think that you want the "other people" as more then flavorful backdrop. You do mention a lot of these things for Mulhorand being in control of the Pharaoh. Then you spoke of petitioning the Pharaoh for some of it meaning these things are accessible. That's where I start to have a problem. I've described that I worry this Pharaoh will be a superpower "Nanny" that controls things that should be just about the players. Even if this isn't the case there is still a bit of kissing up to the NPC to get money. Lastly I realize you didn't plan this, but we know what god the Pharaoh ultimately serves. Even if you played a different god NPC Re might become the issue instead of the Pharaoh. I had hoped to explain why I dislike this so much by pointing out that this super NPC is also an excellent target.

I would dislike this even if I wasn't Set, but being set makes it particular bad. At least twice you have pointed out that I am Set and en enemy to the other Mulhorandi gods. Now you didn't say this next part, and it may be my bad for inferring it. But I saw the situation just a step away from "Pharaoh/Re has a bunch of NPC friends waiting to kill you if they don't like what you're doing"

But anyway I think we are getting our wires crossed because it's a setting vs mechanic/gameplay argument. You did bring up some things that have a big game play and mechanical impact and thats where I've had issue. As far as what you've said thats aggravating me beyond that, i'll concede that I was perhaps reading to much into certain things you said.

I do have reason to think that you want the "other people" as more then flavorful backdrop. You do mention a lot of these things for Mulhorand being in control of the Pharaoh. Then you spoke of petitioning the Pharaoh for some of it meaning these things are accessible. That's where I start to have a problem. I've described that I worry this Pharaoh will be a superpower "Nanny" that controls things that should be just about the players. Even if this isn't the case there is still a bit of kissing up to the NPC to get money.

I mention them in the context of being a counterpoint to the orcs pcs having more freedom to build gigantic hordes with npc orcs if that was the case of such things existing, so, I don't know how we're not now arguing about the meaning of the things I say, where I can really only say "this is what I mean when I say this" and either you can believe me, or you can tell me that I have ulterior motives, which is I guess where we are. And, being really honest, it's a place to be that feels personally insulting. "Easier access to gigantic doom horde by ally building with npcs" is to me a pretty good counter to "can lobby a guy who we are bound to obey to maybe give us crap, but there's a lot of crap he can give." If neither are a thing anyway, then neither are a thing anyway and apparently neither are a thing anyway. Honestly, considering I was certainly picturing crazy gigantic orc hordes, I'm sort of having to ponder the dissonance there.

If nothing else, there's an entire pantheon of which we are three representatives of three gods, I presume there are other representatives doing... something out there, simply for, as you say, consistency of setting, which is where I am approaching these things from, yes.

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At least twice you have pointed out that I am Set and en enemy to the other Mulhorandi gods.

That's just the setting. That's really just the setting. But you're Set's representative, not Set. And I'm not the only one who's said that as far as Set. At absolute best there's a brief note in Old Empires that Set had a tower in Skuld that Horus Re destroyed and banned his worship after the whole Osiris mess that got changed over in later stuff to "Set was chased back into the Raurin and his tower is there".

Beyond that no, I'm the guy asking Zaer "we're not actually the gods though, yes?" and noting based on his reply that indeed thus, we're not. Set himself, who is not you, doesn't go at Re directly because Re's a god, Set's a god, Re has more gods in his pocket, and also out there in the outer planes somewhere where they truly exist, Set and Re are kinda sorta allies against more or less Apophis/Chaos (if you're wanting sources again, that's from On Hallowed Ground). That doesn't really have anything to do with your character as I would see it. Re has a bunch of people who would get in Set's face. I'm not Re, you're not Set.

I would imagine though again that pharaoh, who is clarified as a background element anyway, has people guarding him as far as "well we can now just wax pharaoh or mind slave him". That has nothing to do with some idea of "you can be summarily killed whenever".

My interest in playing a thing where Mulhorand is a big option, is clarifying for myself how much of it still feels like the thing I'm interested as far as scope and possibility and structure and surrounding events.

Zaer noting that he was ditching the whole incarnation/manifestation system anyway as far as the questions you're asking about it, making all that moot, but it goes like this, as far as a very detailed bit from Old Empires, that was later slightly retconned in other books (mostly for the incarnations being somewhat less human and something the gods can just remake when needed in human bodies, and also that the gods were not on the prime by choice, but were stuck and sealed from their outer planar selves, but also to the point that the incarnations were aspects of the gods such that during the time of troubles, they went into comas), but this is close enough:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

However, this pantheon prefers todwell physically at a holy place withinthis plane. This physical form of the deityis called a manifestation. It is immortal,very powerful (sometimes ofGreater Power status), and is the masterof that deity’s affairs on the plane.For most purposes, the manifestationof a deity can be considered to be thedeity, with one essential difference. Adeity who leaves the plane may pass onthe power of his manifestation to another;when the manifestation of Re(also known as Ra) was slain during theOrcgate Wars, he passed on his powerto the manifestation of Horus, who tookthe name Horus-Re.In more extreme circumstances, a deitywho clashes with another deity andwho has a greater following amongmortals may demand that the rivalmanifestation surrender his power; if awar deity who had a greater number ofworshipers than Anhur arose, he mightforce Anhur to surrender the power ofhis manifestation. When a manifestationis successfully challenged for hisworshipers or destroyed in combat, heis forever banished from the plane,though a gate spell might summon thedeity’s true form.Another important concept is that ofan incarnation. The incarnation is amortal form of a deity. An incarnation isvery powerful, equal to a high-levelcharacter, occasionally possessing minordivine powers, but still capable ofbeing slain (Tholaunt, an incarnation ofAnhur, was slain 30 years ago by Valeriosof Pyardos, one of the Tharchionsof Thay). Incarnations compose most ofa pharaoh’s royal family, but the eldestis always an incarnation of Horus-Re.An incarnation has the general temperamentof a manifestation, but it is notunder the direct control of the deityand can be affected by mortal weaknessesand foibles.A third term that is used in Mulhorandis the cult of a god. A cult is agroup of worshipers devoted to a singlegod within a pantheon of deities. Thus acult of Isis recognizes all deities of thepantheon but focuses devotion on thegoddess Isis.Mulhorand is an absolute theocracy.The priests are the instruments of thegovernment of the pharaoh, who is responsibleonly to the gods for his action.All land that is not privately owned belongsto the god-kings. All slaves are theproperty of the god-kings and must berented from the church of Horus. Theymust be treated well, for they are theproperty of the gods. All commands ofthe god-kings must be obeyed. This arrangementgives great power to thepriesthood.

There's a follow up paragraph about how the gods prefer to be hands off, but it got a bunch of retcons and later things even in the rest of the book pretty much ignore it. Also replace "horus" with Re as needs be, since Horus is just Horus right now, and in charge of eff all, and not merged with Re.

There's also some stuff on countermeasures within the system that make it more benign and good to the people in it, slaves being given various legal protections, etc., but that's not really relevant to what you're asking on.

We're not incarnations or manifestations, going by Zaer. We're dudes, favoured by the gods, who represent their interests and have been touched by them a bit. I would imagine in this version of things the gods actually are off in the outer planes somewhere, since they only created that whole system because they had to in the breach.

If we were incarnations, our stats would be crazypants, and, for instance, you would be a level 17 fighter, level 18 illusionist, and level 12 priest. Also, you'd have skin of scales and have several divine special abilities amd immunities.

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As far as what you've said thats aggravating me beyond that, i'll concede that I was perhaps reading to much into certain things you said.

We're not incarnations or manifestations, going by Zaer. We're dudes, favoured by the gods, who represent their interests and have been touched by them a bit. I would imagine in this version of things the gods actually are off in the outer planes somewhere, since they only created that whole system because they had to in the breach.

Doubblepost I know but it's on a new subject so I thought it might be better than an edit. Someone mentioned possible God-Kings of Unther. Inanna would be a great match for me too. Perhaps not perfect but my whole slave based mind control thing fits as a very lawful evil way of enforcing love for each other. Would the character creation for that be the same thing as I already did basically? I can export the character wholecloth even.

Point being is that even if you individually do not have canon lore wise resources or insane hordes of orcs, we use for reason heroes of battle rules. In every conflict there will be VP (victory points) given in achieving objectives and there is going to be several. When you achieve certain VP values, it determines overall how battle went for the orcs as a whole (so in short even if conflict scale is smaller it determined how as a whole orcish horde or as entire host of Mulhorand/Unther fared in said battle).

So small battles but massive impacts. Anycase you do not go beg or ask pharaoh to get resources; you already get them (in form of income rating from your followers). Also if want bribe or win mercenaries to help in battle then that is achieved through VP amount in going with successful negotiations with them (and perhaps need do mission, alliance, another negotiation or a battle to get more VP to buy mercs against orcs).

All resource or advantage use falls into VP entirely. You can ignore the pharaoh although he is there but he cannot decide or do nothing as he is ten year old boy. Of course Set could gain VP in corrupting/mind controlling him as war does plan to last years (it's VP which shows up in future once pharaoh is in power for Set order). Besides empire scale VP usages there could be personal goal based VP usage (which focuses on order or such) and could allow purchase perks or remove drawbacks (but those cost a ton).

The VP system is still in air but I voice it out for discussion wise and opinions. Anycase I double confirm the god kings/queens or warchiefs are just divinely powerful individuals who have been touched little by their gods which mechanically carry no consequence (besides having right for said title than just be 'powerful cleric'). Also some point in campaign there will be (potentially, remember players actions decide how battles go) battle of the gods and all god kings/queens and warchiefs become avatars (simply said get buff like +30 to all stats or some special abilities) and go at each other.

Anycase I double confirm the god kings/queens or warchiefs are just divinely powerful individuals who have been touched little by their gods which mechanically carry no consequence (besides having right for said title than just be 'powerful cleric').

That's what I had figured, we otherwise really wouldn't be deciding our own personalities as much.

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The VP system is still in air but I voice it out for discussion wise and opinions.

I would say it's a little bit weird if you can spend victory points to do things not really related to having won some battle. It makes things a bit more.. RTS, than something you rp towards affecting. Basically, how much scope is there for action taken outside of VP spending to make something go?

Anycase I double confirm the god kings/queens or warchiefs are just divinely powerful individuals who have been touched little by their gods which mechanically carry no consequence.

That's so standardized though, after all is said and done we are just some priest with a fancy title. Why not be lesser avatars in control of physical bodies or something? Just because we are part of the conscious of the deity doesn't mean you have to stat us as them if that's what this is about. I'm looking rather forward to playing a full out aspect of Inanna (And previously was looking forward to playing one of Set). If people are divided on this issue than just leave it to the individual to decide the nature of their character. Everyone gets what they want, always a good thing.

I do have to request we switch the names of Ishtar and Inanna. Ishtar sounds bad ass, its what I've always called that goddess IRl. Inanna makes me think of a cross between Banana and a name people use for their grandmothers.

Edit: The Victory Point system seems like a great idea. Makes things more dynamic since it breaks a gigantic battle down to manageable parts. I also like how they can be used to buy upgrades and plot tokens afterward. Since there is no "level up and chose a perk, or empire expansion, ect. . . " the VP make a very good way to handle such things.

There is that "God Touched" template to those, who really want to go for the Divine path... just saying. And Catholic Pope is said to be Avatar of the God... so its pretty same how/why character is called X or Y... even some characters might actually "know" they are Divine manifestation of X or Y God, and preach it to others. Who is going to disaprove that and face their wrath anyway? Truth might be totally different story, or it might not be.. who knows... Just play like you got a Pair.

And about the VPs, I kinda like those aswell. Easy way to "keep score" of how the whole campaign is going.

But Ishtar and Inanna are two different goddesses? Ishtar being her alleged daughter -- and later on in the timeline Isis' alter ego. That's not changing canon slightly, that's like... throwing canon out of the window.

I do hope Zaer agrees to your playing as Inanna (even though he said only Gilgeam and Tiamat for Unther God-Kings/Queens) because she is one of the most badass deities out there :)

Basically my thing is, let's say I wanted to go hunt down and try and shellack some powerful monster or dragon or what have you for the extra cash influx, or something like that. Or try to find some lost cultural relic of some other culture to bring said culture into the ongoing conflict. Is there room for trying to do that outside of spending VP for things? How much is VP spending to make goals happen intended to cover and how much space is there for trying to achieve things outside of doing so, is what I'm asking.