You're kidding, right? You know that people can read the numerous comments you made in the other thread in which you repeatedly called John a liar, accused him of being hostile, engaging in vitriol, going after DCP, and making things up, right? And now you are vouching for John as a "nice guy," eh? You're a real piece of work.

Kidding? No.

Lying? Yes.

_________________"He who sees only with the eyes of reason has no occasion for spectacles."~Vizir Rustan, The Magic Spectacles

You're kidding, right? You know that people can read the numerous comments you made in the other thread in which you repeatedly called John a liar,

I didn't call him a liar. But to be fair, we all lie from tiem to time.

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accused him of being hostile,

Likewise, we're all hostile at some point.

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engaging in vitriol,

He seemed angry, what can I say? Oh he admitted he was angry and apologized. Which was real swell, if you ask me.

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going after DCP,

Duh. He apologized. I ain't about to go on about this.

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and making things up, right?

This relates to his one indiscretion of trying to say DCP was saying there was no essay at all. I asked him. He never responded. Suddenly Buffalo got all worked up over it as did you and others.

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And now you are vouching for John as a "nice guy," eh? You're a real piece of work.

Son of a gun. So let's see, the sum of it is, a nice guy can actually be someone who misrepresented another, got angry and attacked another? Sounds like every single guy I know at some point. If such a person can't be nice, then no one can be nice.

Settle down all. Read my sig. Let it sink in. No need to get all worked up over nothing.

This is John. I just want to briefly clarify what we consider our goals to be.

Non-goals:1) To be dissenters2) To criticize3) To influence church leadership in order to effect change in the church4) To persuade anyone to leave the church5) To persuade anyone to stay in or join the church

Goals:

1) To explore, and to inform as many people as possible about the historical, doctrinal, and cultural complexities of Mormonism -- so that people can navigate their lives and relationships with the church in ways that are more fully informed. Because traditional, active church membership requires so much of its members, and has such a significant impact on individuals and society, we believe that people deserve to be fully informed about the church before they make such decisions. Since the church tends to focus more on the positive and correlated portions of Mormonism, we try to explore "the rest of the story." We try to be as neutral as we can in our exploration, as evidenced by our willingness to interview both believing members (Richard Bushman, Grant Hardy, Terrell Givens, Daniel Peterson, Brant Gardner, Charles Harrell, etc.) and non-believing members (Grant Palmer, Margaret and Paul Toscano, the McLays, Simon Southerton, etc.).

2) To provide open forums for sharing and discussion regarding these tougher Mormon-related issues, where people will not be feel judged for their thoughts, feelings, experiences, or ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation. If people decide to stay in the church: awesome. If people decide to leave the church: that's totally their decision.

3) To provide resources and communities of support for people who are struggling with a Mormon-related transition, whether they be experiencing a faith transition, marital discord, mental health concerns, or struggling with their sexual orientation. Ultimately our goal is to reduce Mormon-related depression, anxiety, familial strife, divorce, and suicide -- and to increase Mormon joy and happiness.

That's what we're trying to do, anyway -- though we make thousands of mistakes along the way.

But just to repeat -- dissent, criticism, organizational change, and causing people to leave or stay in the church are not even really on our roadmaps.

You're kidding, right? You know that people can read the numerous comments you made in the other thread in which you repeatedly called John a liar,

I didn't call him a liar. But to be fair, we all lie from tiem to time.

stemelbow wrote:

All we have from him (John Dehlin) is a made up story about how DCP claimed there was an alleged essay. That wasn't true.

That's one place where you called him a liar. You said he "made up a story about how DCP claimed there was an alleged essay." Then you said that what John said "wasn't true." To normal, rational people, that's tantamount to calling someone a liar. And, of course, what you say is a complete fabrication. John never "made up a story about how DCP claimed there was an alleged essay." You are the one who lied when you said that about John. And now you have compounded it by lying about it again here. I'm not "worked up" in the slightest.

_________________"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo

That's one place where you called him a liar. You said he "made up a story about how DCP claimed there was an alleged essay." Then you said that what John said "wasn't true." To normal, rational people, that's tantamount to calling someone a liar. And, of course, what you say is a complete fabrication. John never "made up a story about how DCP claimed there was an alleged essay." You are the one who lied when you said that about John. And now you have compounded it by lying about it again here. I'm not "worked up" in the slightest.

My goodness, my man. I don't know about you, but I never think someone is a liar if they say something that is not true. Afterall every single person I've ever known has said something not true. I'd imagine every single person who has ever lived has lied. Saying something not true does not mean someone is a liar. Hope that helps.

I'm not going on about it anymore. He apologized. No need to drag it out. you don't like it, please just drop it. I will too. Deal?

I fear that Stem has been caught up in the doctrine that lying to protect church leaders (in this case the leader of the Church of FAIR) will be rewarded in heaven.

Fear no longer. I don't live by that creed at all. I do not intend to lie for any, well most, reasons. Yeah, so what if my kid's a wimp but I don't tell him that? I can lie sometimes if I feel its best.

I fear that Stem has been caught up in the doctrine that lying to protect church leaders (in this case the leader of the Church of FAIR) will be rewarded in heaven.

Fear no longer. I don't live by that creed at all. I do not intend to lie for any, well most, reasons. Yeah, so what if my kid's a wimp but I don't tell him that? I can lie sometimes if I feel its best.

What's your motivation, then? Have you lost your fear of god but not your slavish devotion to defending NAMIRS members at all costs?

That's one place where you called him a liar. You said he "made up a story about how DCP claimed there was an alleged essay." Then you said that what John said "wasn't true." To normal, rational people, that's tantamount to calling someone a liar. And, of course, what you say is a complete fabrication. John never "made up a story about how DCP claimed there was an alleged essay." You are the one who lied when you said that about John. And now you have compounded it by lying about it again here. I'm not "worked up" in the slightest.

My goodness, my man. I don't know about you, but I never think someone is a liar if they say something that is not true. Afterall every single person I've ever known has said something not true. I'd imagine every single person who has ever lived has lied. Saying something not true does not mean someone is a liar. Hope that helps.

I'm not going on about it anymore. He apologized. No need to drag it out. you don't like it, please just drop it. I will too. Deal?

There you go again. He apologized for the tone of his earlier post. He did not apologize for any of the stuff of which you accused him and he did not do. Are you constitutionally able to not dissemble, deflect, and denigrate?

_________________"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo

I don't know about you, but I never think someone is a liar if they say something that is not true. Afterall every single person I've ever known has said something not true. I'd imagine every single person who has ever lived has lied. Saying something not true does not mean someone is a liar. Hope that helps.

You lie constantly. Ergo, you are a liar. At least in this place.

_________________"He who sees only with the eyes of reason has no occasion for spectacles."~Vizir Rustan, The Magic Spectacles

What's your motivation, then? Have you lost your fear of god but not your slavish devotion to defending NAMIRS members at all costs?

Just interested in truths and seeking out useful ways to communicate. I also hope to help you guys see the light. Not the light as in bringing back itno the Church or whatever, but the light in showing you how your criticisms aren't very valid, quite often.

There you go again. He apologized for the tone of his earlier post. He did not apologize for any of the stuff of which you accused him and he did not do. Are you constitutionally able to not dissemble, deflect, and denigrate?

I didn't say he apologized for anything other than his anger and such. I am merely saying I do not wish to beat it anymore, because he did apologize for something.

Now go on, dear sir, and think me a liar if you must. Just like ol' Kishkumen. I think it's easier that way. [i]Mormons are liars...that's why I don't like 'em[/]

Wow. There's a whopper if I ever read one. That is the opposite of what you do.

What would you know about valid? I have seen little or no evidence that valid is a concept that you are familiar with.

Accusations are easy in this place. It's easy to go after a Mormon, afterall. Let's just all settle down and communicate as grownups. I mean if you want. If you want to send me packing...just say so. I'll know where you stand, at least.

Nice try potatoes. Wherein have I lied? And please document a constant supply of lies.

Stem, your pattern of deceit is laced throughout the threads on this board. We have watched you lie your way through this event, just as you have lied your way through others. All interested parties can follow up on it.

It's not like an epic liar like you would ever cop to your long trail of deceptions. That's not how you roll.

You're kind of like Bob Crockett in that respect. There is a man with no moral compass, just like you.

_________________"He who sees only with the eyes of reason has no occasion for spectacles."~Vizir Rustan, The Magic Spectacles

Stem, your pattern of deceit is laced throughout the threads on this board. We have watched you lie your way through this event, just as you have lied your way through others. All interested parties can follow up on it.

It's not like an epic liar like you would ever cop to your long trail of deceptions. That's not how you roll.

You're kind of like Bob Crockett in that respect. There is a man with no moral compass, just like you.

I appreciate the commentary. I get where you're coming from. But if you got nothing, then you got nothing. I suppose if you got nothing you just spout out some rough comments and watch the masses pat you ont he back. Such is the tact of this joint--Go after Mormons for doing their best, even if they make mistakes.