[ad#post_ad]Bob Lutz may have retired on May 1, but my exit interview with him lives on (for a little while anyway).

What factors go into pricing the Volt, and why have you’ve said the car won’t turn a profit?
We have to find that sweet spot between trying to make money and having it at a price where nobody will buy it. We could very easily do that. And coming up with a price where we could break even or not lose too much per unit in the first generation.

Now we obviously have very solid plans on how to get down the cost of the second version and the third version, and these are all being worked on.

How do we get the cost down without in any way diminishing the value of the car in the eyes of the customer? By just doing some more elegant engineering than we did the first time around where we inadvertently did some belt and suspenders stuff because we wanted to move fast. Now as we look back at the car we say ‘gee I wish we’d done his different,’ …’ gee I wish we’d done that different’ because this is a very expensive solution and we could have done that for a lot less money.

Gen two will have all these intelligent cost saving things built in. Ultimately there’s no question that we will make some money on the Volt.

On pricing, its going to be higher than people would normally expect to pay for a car of that size, but on the other hand there’s a federal credit of $7500. Many states are now talking about credits, some cities are talking about credits, and some employers are offering credits, like Google.

So that at the end of the day if somebody has a federal credit, a California credit or whatever state, a major urban credit, and she works for Google, she’ll wind up writing a five thousand dollar check and getting a Volt.

You had once said the cost of the car would include a second battery, because of the warranty, baked into the car. Is that still the case?
We were adopting a very conservative approach at the time. We now think, from our experience with the battery during the life of the car, it is going to be way better than what we initially assumed.
So that very very large provision for battery warranty I think that’s going to give us some daylight for potentially lowering the price a little bit, or potentially making a little money on the car, or how about all of the above.

That’s good news.
Yes it is good news, because our experience with battery aging and thousands of cycle on the battery is actually considerably better than what we had planned.

Achieving a ten year 150,000 mile goal is something it sounds like you’re very confident in now.
Without committing to it being ten year or 150,000 warranty basically we are very very confident in the capability and the life of this battery in all but the hottest climates.

So it could be that in certain very hot climates where people leave this thing in a baking supermarket parking lot all day, these lithium ion batteries, if they get much over 95 or 100 degrees Fahrenheit, they quickly start losing life. So we may have to adjust warrantees, but we really haven’t decided how to do that yet.
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This entry was posted on Monday, May 3rd, 2010 at 6:32 am and is filed under Financial, Original GM-Volt Interviews. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 182

1

+6

Barry252 Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:38 am)

Come on, set the price and let me start planning!!…..

2

koz Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:43 am)

Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo.

3

+1

Loboc Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:47 am)

Great stuff Lyle!

Now we are getting some meat with our spuds

“We now think, from our experience with the battery during the life of the car, it is going to be way better than what we initially assumed.”

This is great news both for the pricing and for the future of battery-electric cars.

Reading between the lines I think that LEAF has a pretty good approach that is way less conservative than Volt. I have always thought that the GM design was over-engineered.

For extreme heat conditions, Volt has a way to cool it’s batteries until it reaches low SoC. If Leaf did this, you could be at too low a charge to reach a charging station. Volt=no problem. Just burn some gas until you can get charged again. Beautiful.

4

+3

Tom Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:50 am)

OK lets all chant in unison WHATS THE PRICE! WHATS THE PRICE!
Tom

5

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:51 am)

Wow, sounds like it’s almost all good news! Just release it everywhere but Tx and Florida and get ON with it! (LOL). Can you imagine how short a LEAF battery will last in hot climes? Also sounds like Gen I has some pluses (backup systems) over Gen II, AND Gen II has an edge over Gen I in places (less complex=fewer potential problems, lower pricing and/or better profit for GM).
I wouldn’t kick either Gen I or Gen II out of my driveway though!
Pullllleeezzzze give us the price!

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

6

+3

koz Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:53 am)

koz: Achieving a ten year 150,000 mile goal is something it sounds like you’re very confident in now.
Without committing to it being ten year or 150,000 warranty basically we are very very confident in the capability and the life of this battery in all but the hottest climates.

So it could be that in certain very hot climates where people leave this thing in a baking supermarket parking lot all day, these lithium ion batteries, if they get much over 95 or 100 degrees Fahrenheit, they quickly start losing life. So we may have to adjust warrantees, but we really haven’t decided how to do that yet.(Quote)

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say this comment will garner some attention today.

I’ll definitely be looking for a white Volt for South Florida unless they offer a solar powered cooling option. Seems like the heat problem will coinside with the sun here. If this can also keep the cabin noticeably cooler then it would certainly have value in hot climates.

Start your planning. They’ve already told us the base price. Forty thousand dollars. You want some options like leather, a sunroof or a wheel upgrade? They have typical prices for those. Go look at a Malibu or Cobalt options price list and start adding it up.

9

+3

koz Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:03 am)

Tagamet: Wow, sounds like it’s almost all good news! Just release it everywhere but Tx and Florida and get ON with it! (LOL). Can you imagine how short a LEAF battery will last in hot climes? Also sounds like Gen I has some pluses (backup systems) over Gen II, AND Gen II has an edge over Gen I in places (less complex=fewer potential problems, lower pricing and/or better profit for GM).I wouldn’t kick either Gen I or Gen II out of my driveway though!Pullllleeezzzze give us the price!Be well and believe,TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS(Quote)

Hey…HEY wait a minute! If they get it in SoCal and in from the coast, then we should get them in FL too

Lyle: You had once said the cost of the car would include a second battery, because of the warranty, baked into the car. Is that still the case?Lutz: We were adopting a very conservative approach at the time. We now think, from our experience with the battery during the life of the car, it is going to be way better than what we initially assumed.

It’s great to have my long-held view that GM has artificially inflated the battery cost confirmed. The experts at LG Chem and at Argonne National Labs projected battery costs roughly 1/2 those projected by GM as long as 1 1/2 yrs ago. I also suspect that GM has been slow to admit this because they saw battery cost as essentially an indisputable way to project a very high selling Volt price, which allowed the lower actual Volt pricing to please potential customers. Not a bad marketing strategy.

11

+1

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:05 am)

Baltimore17:
Start your planning.They’ve already told us the base price.Forty thousand dollars.You want some options like leather, a sunroof or a wheel upgrade?They have typical prices for those.Go look at a Malibu or Cobalt options price list and start adding it up.

I think that you are at *least* 5K high on that base price. It’s all speculation at this point, but even that is getting to be “less fun” (g). JMO.

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

12

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:10 am)

nasaman: Lyle: You had once said the cost of the car would include a second battery, because of the warranty, baked into the car. Is that still the case?
Lutz: We were adopting a very conservative approach at the time. We now think, from our experience with the battery during the life of the car, it is going to be way better than what we initially assumed.It’s great to have my long-held view that GM has artificially inflated the battery cost confirmed. The technical experts at LG Chem and at Argonne National Labs projected battery costs roughly 1/2 those projected by GM as long as 1 1/2 yrs ago. I also suspect that GM has been slow to admit this because they saw battery cost as essentially an indisputable way to project a very high selling Volt price, which allowed the lower actual Volt pricing to please potential customers. Not a bad marketing strategy.

Devil’s advocate position: they only “expected” the battery to last 5 years. Now it lasts 10, so that it can now be “closer” to affordable. After all, as you said, it’s been a long time since those discussions.
(BUT I HOPE YOU’RE RIGHT) (g).

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

13

+2

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:17 am)

koz:
Hey…HEY wait a minute! If they get it in SoCal and in from the coast, then we should get them in FL too It’s hardly ever >95F here.

LOL, how hot does the blacktop in parking lots get with all that SUN in southern Calif? You know I was just joshing, but then again, maybe they’ll only release it in northern Calif, and if you drive too far south the GPS turns the car north…. (picture HAL the computer in 2001).

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

14

+1

Dave K. Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:17 am)

There is a demo drive video on the net wherein the driver mentions the “white” Volt. Would like to see the Euro hood Volt in white. And also in red.
Will stick with $35,900 as my guess on sticker price. GM would not be wise to ask $39+k in this economy. Orders would heavily exceed production at 32k.

According to Lyle, the Volt will be priced in the low 30s, which would make it mid-20s after the tax credit:http://gm-volt.com/2010/01/27/gm-ceo-ed-whitacre-is-a-strong-fan-of-the-volt/“Though various bloggers quoting GM spokespeople have attempted to refute Mr. Whitacre’s comment to me about the Volt selling in the low 30s, I still stand by his statement. None of the naysayers were present for the call nor spent time in GM’s boardroom. The $7500 tax credit was not mentioned or inferred. Of course, we’ll have to wait until summer to see for sure.”

Baltimore17:
Start your planning.They’ve already told us the base price.Forty thousand dollars.You want some options like leather, a sunroof or a wheel upgrade?They have typical prices for those.Go look at a Malibu or options price list and start adding it up.

I don’t see any negatives in this post, just facts.

17

+2

BillR Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:25 am)

So with this third installment, we now have the Lutz trilogy.

A base Cruze goes for about $17k. This includes a turbo on the 1.4L engine and a six speed auto.

Trade in the turbo and 6 speed for a 2-mode transmission, power electronics, and a battery pack. Also add in aero improvements and a fancy instrument panel. Even with a $20k adder (which I consider extremely generous), this still comes out to $37k for the Volt.

But, as we all know, pricing is not always determined by the cost of manufacture.

Still, I will stay with my price projection from the thread in the forum of ~$34,900, without Nav or high-end toys.

18

+5

Nelson Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:26 am)

GM should burn all Volt pictures that show the old hood. That’s not the version that will be sold.

Tagamet, post #12:Devil’s advocate position: they only “expected” the battery to last 5 years. Now it lasts 10, so that it can now be “closer” to affordable. After all, as you said, it’s been a long time since those discussions.
(BUT I HOPE YOU’RE RIGHT) (g).Be well and believe,
TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

Angel’s advocate response: GM has been keenly aware of California’s requirement for a 10yr, 150,000 mile life (as Chelsea reminded us recently) since long before the battery’s thermal design was started. Based on my experience with multi-layer thermal insulation (MLI) used on spacecraft, I expect both GM and Nissan will make use of a similar relatively inexpensive, light-weight material to keep hot black pavement from excessively raising battery temperatures. And I’d be willing to bet GM’s testing of a Volt at the >200 F temperatures they experienced in Death Valley proved it works —even for days at a time.

/Therefore SoCal, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Florida, etc climates should NOT be a threat to long-term battery life in my opinion

20

+1

JohnK Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:27 am)

Well, as I remember, the Volt price was supposed to be released in May. It IS May now. Lyle, you did your job with the teaser. GM, it is now your turn. My birthday is less than a week away. Knowing the price would be a decent birthday present. 😉
OT- over the weekend I made a trip to Ohio, so while passing through Brownstown I got off the freeway to get a close look at the battery plant. It is just a very non-descript building with not a lot of signs of activity. The building next door was filled with semi-trailers, but it was a Ford parts depot. And as I think of it, you could get a large number of battery packs into a single truck trailer. Also, my nephew and I took a drive around the Hamtramck plant a few weekends back, but there is not a lot to see from the ground (Google gives a really good view of it).

21

+1

JohnK Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:33 am)

Another OT. The count down clock is now at 210 days. That’s 7 months. That means December. I thought that the target was November. In any case I wonder what the chances are of getting them earlier (I know, I know, one thing at a time)?

22

+2

Tim Hart Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:45 am)

The suspense is killing me! The price options are the last piece of the puzzle. I have called the Chevy dealer nearest to me in Michigan and they already have two one thousand dollar deposits on a Volt and they have no idea when they will get it or at what price! It just an indication of the huge demand for this car. You are going to have to act fast if you don’t live in the first areas for the release and want a Gen I Volt.

23

+1

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:46 am)

nasaman: Tagamet, post #12:
Devil’s advocate position: they only “expected” the battery to last 5 years. Now it lasts 10, so that it can now be “closer” to affordable. After all, as you said, it’s been a long time since those discussions.
(BUT I HOPE YOU’RE RIGHT) (g).Be well and believe,
TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

Angel’s advocate response: GM has been keenly aware of California’s requirement for a 10yr, 150,000 mile life (as Chelsea reminded us recently) since long before the battery’s thermal design was started. Based on my experience with multi-layer thermal insulation (MLI) used on spacecraft, I expect both GM and Nissan will make use of a similar relatively inexpensive, light-weight material to keep hot black pavement from excessively raising battery temperatures. And I’d be willing to bet GM’s testing of a Volt at the >200 F temperatures they experienced in Death Valley proved it works —even for days at a time.

/Therefore SoCal, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Florida, etc climates should NOT be a threat to long-term battery life in my opinion

Ahhhh, spoken like a truly unbiased FLORIDIAN (lol). Well from my extensive research of six-packs in paper bags, the beer eventually does get warm (g). See my solution at post #13.

What are your thoughts about the heat effects on the LEAF’s air cooled battery in regard to battery lifespan? It would seem problematic.

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

24

+3

Scottie Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:50 am)

If you take what Bob says literality then he just told us the price: “federal credit, a California credit or whatever state, a major urban credit, and she works for Google, she’ll wind up writing a five thousand dollar check and getting a Volt.”

Assuming the 7500 credit for each entity then the total would be (7500 X 5 = 37,500 – 5,000 = $32,500) so that would be a sticker price of $37,500

Of course this would mean that Mr. Lutz was trying to gives us all a secret message. We never seem to get sick of speculating on the price of Volt!!!

Tagamet, post #23:
…What are your thoughts about the heat effects on the LEAF’s air cooled battery in regard to battery lifespan? It would seem problematic. Be well and believe,Tagamet Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

MLI (multi-layer insulation) is fairly inexpensive & very lightweight. It’s likened to perhaps 10 vacuum jars in series and effectively prevents spacecraft from being harmed by the extremely harsh temperatures of space (-300 to +300 F) over long time spans. With MLI underneath the Leaf or Volt batteries, even extended exposures to boiling hot asphalt should not raise the battery temperatures appreciably. Air circulating through the Leaf battery (inside its MLI) should be adequate to keep the actual battery temperatures very moderate.

26

+1

James Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:04 am)

Just a side note: Tony Posawatz gave a talk to the Plug In America people April 15 and it’s on YouTube. If you haven’t watched that one, it’s a long video filled with little tidbits — well worth viewing. You’ll notice he downsizes the battery warranty to “at least eight years”, but 10 as mandated in the state of California. I like his choice of words as he characterizes the battery as “robust”.

Tag, I left a note for you on the last post on Saturday – #77…. Just in case you didn’t see it that late.

RECHARGE! James

IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.

27

+1

zim wolfe Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:07 am)

He’s doing the Ross Perot by standing on a box for the picture..

koz: Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo.

28

Dan Petit Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:21 am)

Tagamet: Wow, sounds like it’s almost all good news! Just release it everywhere but Tx and Florida and get ON with it! (LOL). Can you imagine how short a LEAF battery will last in hot climes?Also sounds like Gen I has some pluses (backup systems) over Gen II, AND Gen II has an edge over Gen I in places (less complex=fewer potential problems, lower pricing and/or better profit for GM).
I wouldn’t kick either Gen I or Gen II out of my driveway though!
Pullllleeezzzze give us the price!Be well and believe,
TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

They have to do things in the order and time frame that they need to do things. Just the way it is. We just have to have relentless patience. We in Texas might have to wait three more years is how I see it right now. But if others get Volts, I’m happy with that too.

29

RB Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:21 am)

koz: Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo.

Possibly you are remembering the publicity photos, mostly taken from close to the ground and without people or other objects in the near field. Those photos allow one to imagine the size of the car from past memories and may make Volt seem bigger than it is. As shown in the picture with Mr Lutz, in fact Volt is a car that is relatively low to the ground. No doubt that helps diminish the frontal area and thereby keeps the aero good.

30

+1

James Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:22 am)

In case you haven’t heard — Wired Magazine is running a Volt Video contest: actually the task is not to make a video about the Volt, but entitle it: How I/we use technology to help save the planet – or to be more green.

The prize? Are you ready for this one? —– Wait for it —– A trip to Warren, MI to tour the Volt shop – access to interview key Volt developers and a test drive on GM’s proving grounds!!!!!!! Deadlilne May 15. Go to Wired’s website or their Facebook or Twitter page for more contest facts.

WARNING: You guys better BRING IT ON!!!! L L .
I’m gonna pull out all the stops and my new video will make “Buy Buy Miss American Pie” look like child’s play!!!!! L L

Good Luck!

RECHARGE! James

IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.

P.S. – Another nugget: Did you know GM engineers are proud to tell the plug-in receptacle that attaches to Volt’s design was inspired by the Braun electric razor? No fooling. From Tony Posawatz’s lips to our ears.

31

+2

George S. Bower Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:32 am)

I will just post this without having read the previous comments. I have also opened up a thread in the forum on this subject if anyone wants to participate.

I know Prowler has said that the Tesla Roadster, when plugged in will cool the batteries first with fans only transfering heat from the liquid cooled pack and then as a last measure, actually using the vehicles heat pump to cool the battery heat transfer fluid.

Do we know any details about the Volt’s battery coolant scheme for the parking/storage situation. I know we have speculated that the Volt has a coolant scheme similar to Tesla, but——do we know for sure???

32

+1

James Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:39 am)

If you watched the Plug In America Volt video on YouTube, what did you think of the catchy NEW Volt song at the very end?

RECHARGE! James

IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.

33

+1

BLDude Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:40 am)

From what Lutz is saying, if $5,000 will get you a Volt then doing the math, $5,000 is 20% down payment on a $25,000 net cost of the car. That makes it $32,500 before the federal tax credit.

Sounds pretty good. Makes me also want to get a job at Google!

34

+1

Michael Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:43 am)

James: Tag, I left a note for you on the last post on Saturday – #77…. Just in case you didn’t see it that late.

I looked at this comment which caused me to look at two or three other comments you referenced. Three further small points:
1) Thanks for the kind words to me and others.
2) Yes, Chelsea’s post was much later, May 1st.
3) I haven’t figured out the means that others have for formatting (e.g. boldface), so for emphasis I use a tip from Tagamet and put a “*” before and after the word, i.e., *James.*

35

+1

Schmeltz Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:56 am)

Lyle’s probably saving the divulging of the actual price for his last Lutz interview post (LOL!)

Lots of great stuff to chew on here—great job Lyle! That’s a stunning pic of the Volt in black BTW!

36

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:57 am)

James: Tag, I left a note for you on the last post on Saturday – #77…. Just in case you didn’t see it that late.

Thanks for the heads-up, James. I was asleep a long time before that post, and like most, I don’t go back once there is new info *ahead*.
BTW, I like my root beer in a frosted mug.
The tags for bold: at the beginning, put a b between and at the end put /b between .
Hope that helps. I’m still waiting for Zachery to tell me the “strike through” tags (lol).

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

37

DonC Says

May 3rd, 2010 (9:05 am)

More original programming Lyle. Nice work!

The battery information is very encouraging. Very very encouraging. The limiting factor for the Volt and other EVs has always been the battery, so to the extent that the battery performs better than expected it gives both companies and their engineers more leeway on a number of fronts. Problems on other fronts can easily be cancelled out by good news on the battery front.

Tagamet: LOL, how hot does the blacktop in parking lots get with all that SUN in southern Calif? You know I was just joshing, but then again, maybe they’ll only release it in northern Calif

It’s more a coast/inland issue than a North/South issue. Where I am in SoCal or in LA the average high in July is in the 70s. The average high in Davis in NoCal for the same period is in the 90s. Ya need to come out and visit! With your friends here you’ve got lots of places you can stay.

38

Michael Says

May 3rd, 2010 (9:17 am)

James: Tony Posawatz gave a talk to the Plug In America people April 15 and it’s on YouTube

James thanks for the link. Very interesting video once you get to the part with Tony.

39

+1

Ray Says

May 3rd, 2010 (9:21 am)

Yes… we still need a price…

As an example…. the 2010 Ford Fusion with ALL the options prices out at around $31,000 (Canadian)
The 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid Base unit $ 28,000 (Canadian), Well dressed $ 33,500 (Canadian) and with all the bells and whistles $ 36,800 (Canadian)

And a I don’t did not get any $$$ Credit from the Canadian government when I bought the well dressed Fusion Hybrid.

Life time average on my Fusion hybrid— as of today with 23,500 KMS is 5.7 KM/100 L (49.5 MPG Canadian and 41.3 MPG US)

GM is going to have to price the Volt right the first time out or people will not buy…

40

Loboc Says

May 3rd, 2010 (9:49 am)

Tagamet:
Thanks for the heads-up, James. I was asleep a long time before that post, and like most, I don’t go back once there is new info *ahead*.
BTW, I like my root beer in a frosted mug.
The tags for bold: at the beginning, put a b betweenand at the end put /b between .
Hope that helps. I’m stillwaiting for Zachery to tell me the “strike through” tags (lol).Be well and believe,
TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

– Right-click somewhere on the page and select “View page source” (“View source” in IE)
– Search down to the post where the ‘strike through’ or other cute HTML thinger is
– Reverse-engineer and enjoy

41

+2

canehdian Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:08 am)

Scottie: If you take what Bob says literality then he just told us the price:“federal credit, a California credit or whatever state, a major urban credit, and she works for Google, she’ll wind up writing a five thousand dollar check and getting a Volt.”Assuming the 7500 credit for each entity then the total would be (7500 X 5 = 37,500 – 5,000 = $32,500)so that would be a sticker price of $37,500Of course this would mean that Mr. Lutz was trying to gives us all a secret message.We never seem to get sick of speculating on the price of Volt!!!

Close..
I looked it up, California and Google offer $5000 each.
The only missing component is what an ‘urban centre’ would credit.

Not sure if they all work here or not (They can be blocked by site admins, if desired)

43

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:15 am)

DonC: Tagamet: LOL, how hot does the blacktop in parking lots get with all that SUN in southern Calif? You know I was just joshing, but then again, maybe they’ll only release it in northern Calif

It’s more a coast/inland issue than a North/South issue. Where I am in SoCal or in LA the average high in July is in the 70s. The average high in Davis in NoCal for the same period is in the 90s. Ya need to come out and visit! With your friends here you’ve got lots of places you can stay.

I’m pretty sure that the GPS “Verboten Zones” would still work…(lol).

Thanks for the kind words about the visit. I’m certain that no one could guess from my posts, but actually I’m not very well traveled (lol). I DID spend a year in Omaha one weekend, but that’s as far west as I’ve been. My new bride and I had *planned* on touring to the west coast for our honeymoon, but, er, well,….. that we got as far as Omaha is pretty impressive (wink). We should have flown (g).

MOST excellent! Thanks, and belated congratulations to your hockey team (g).

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

45

Rashiid Amul Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:29 am)

This is interesting.
It gets over 100° F in the summer here in Connecticut.
But mostly high 90’s with plenty of humidity.
Does this make us too hot?
Cars sit here in the parking lots and bake all day.

46

+1

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:33 am)

Rashiid Amul: This is interesting.
It gets over 100° F in the summer here in Connecticut.
But mostly high 90’s with plenty of humidity.
Does this make us too hot?
Cars sit here in the parking lots and bake all day.

*Absolutely!* I’d venture that, say, Pennsylvania, would be the sweet spot (g). We’re “just right” on SO many levels…
Just saying….(wink).

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

47

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:43 am)

Loboc:
– Right-click somewhere on the page and select “View page source” (“View source” in IE)
– Search down to the post where the ’strike through’ or other cute HTML thinger is
– Reverse-engineer and enjoy

Excellent advice. Now I need to go back and find a post from Zach (lol).
Thanks again.

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

48

Matthew_B Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:51 am)

koz: Hey…HEY wait a minute! If they get it in SoCal and in from the coast, then we should get them in FL too

It’s hardly ever >95F here.

I don’t even think people turn the air conditioner on in Phoenix at 95F. That’s a comfortable day when the humidity is in the single digits.

“So that at the end of the day if somebody has a federal credit, a California credit or whatever state, a major urban credit, and she works for Google, she’ll wind up writing a five thousand dollar check and getting a Volt.”

In other words the price will be affordable to “Niche” states or citiies that offer incentives or additional rebates. That goes totally against the “Affordable” price plan they often discuss. It will be affordable to “Niche” States, with “Niche” cities and “Niche” employers. This IS a “Niche” product. A product that guarantees your tether to big oil with it’s dirty polluting internal cumbustion engine.

Range Anxiety = Dependent on foreign oil

50

+2

WopOnTour Says

May 3rd, 2010 (11:04 am)

Ray: Life time average on my Fusion hybrid— as of today with 23,500 KMS is 5.7 KM/100 L (49.5 MPG Canadian and 41.3 MPG US)… (Quote)

LOL
That would be one way to increase the fuel economy by 20% across the entire US fleet. SWITCH TO IMPERIAL GALLONS!
😉
WopOnTour

51

+2

DonC Says

May 3rd, 2010 (11:04 am)

George S. Bower: Do we know any details about the Volt’s battery coolant scheme for the parking/storage situation. I know we have speculated that the Volt has a coolant scheme similar to Tesla, but——do we know for sure???

AFAIK the Volt system is not similar to that used by the Tesla. The Volt’s pack is sealed and the liquid is electronically heated and cooled. The Tesla pack is not sealed and the liquid is air cooled.

52

+1

DonC Says

May 3rd, 2010 (11:07 am)

James: If you watched the Plug In America Volt video on YouTube, what did you think of the catchy NEW Volt song at the very end?

Everything is relative, but this one sure is better than the last one!

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

54

+6

CaptJackSparrow Says

May 3rd, 2010 (11:22 am)

“she’ll wind up writing a five thousand dollar check and getting a Volt.”

Get ready with your -1’s folks…..

LIE LIE LIE!!!

When you walk in to write your check to buy the Volt, your check will be “Full price” minus your down payment and when you drive off the lot, you have paid FULL price.
No way you’ll be able to write a $5,000.00 for the Volt unless it is just your down and you finance the rest, or you’ll be writing 6 of those checks This hiding the price behind rebates and incentives is getting annoying. Especially if you don’t live in CA or whateva place that don’t have these incentives.

OK, OK, I know he don’t work there anymore but sh|t man, quit hiding the price behind rebates and incentives………geeez Loiuse.

That’s it, you did it now. I watched the video and FF to the end to hear that song and all I could say was………..Damnnnnn.

lol….
Aw man, I think we could come up with something better, bang some trash can lids or somethin. That hurt my ears. Maybe we can get a half American and Half Asian person and call him “Vanilla Rice”?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!

/Mr DonC, I gave u a +1 on that one!

56

+1

Noel Park Says

May 3rd, 2010 (11:35 am)

canehdian: I looked it up, California and Google offer $5000 each.
The only missing component is what an ‘urban centre’ would credit.

#39

Well, not to steal CaptJack’s thunder, but, as a resident of “BrokeAzz” California, I don’t think that the amount of money allocated for rebates is going to last past about 2 or 3 hundred Volts. Plus, if memory serves, the 5K is for a pure BEV, and the Volt gets about half.

As a SoCal resident, I’m not aware of any “urban centre” credits here. Certainly not in “BrokkeAzz” Los Angeles, LOL. And not in our little city for sure.

Another OT. The count down clock is now at 210 days. That’s 7 months. That means December. I thought that the target was November. In any case I wonder what the chances are of getting them earlier (I know, I know, one thing at a time)?

Just for accuracy:

210 days from Monday, May 3, 2010 is Monday, November 29, 2010

And no I did not count them. Julian date converters work quite well for that!

I can’t make anymore price comments until we actually see a GM price list. It just drives me crazy………….

OK, I figured out boldface . How about RED? No luck with that….

58

+1

Noel Park Says

May 3rd, 2010 (11:40 am)

CaptJackSparrow: OK, OK, I know he don’t work there anymore but sh|t man, quit hiding the price behind rebates and incentives………geeez Loiuse.

#54

Well you beat me to it, LOL. No sooner did I hit “submit” than your comments popped up. +1

Not for the first time, Mr. Lutz is living in a dream world re these incentives.

The video provided the answer to the (shifter in low setting) regen~brake light question. The strongest regen setting isn’t enough to warrant having the brake lights come on.

When starting a very cold Volt, the gasoline engine will sense the cold battery and run on liquid fuel until the system is brought up into the “normal” operating range. Will then start using the energy stored in the T battery.

The provided 120V power cord has a smart-and-safe function that ensures a proper connection (even when wet) before electricity flows.

The Volt song is really corny and should be parked next to the burgundy Malibu test mule somewhere in Northern Canada.

Why didn’t they go simple low horsepower diesel for the backup? I don’t think I would pay much over 30k by the way for a Chevrolet eh. My “green” choice for a new vehicle would be a TDI at around 21K. COME ON GM you want us to bail you out again by selling a expensive green vehicle.

62

-4

Adam Says

May 3rd, 2010 (11:45 am)

Baltimore17: Start your planning. They’ve already told us the base price. Forty thousand dollars. You want some options like leather, a sunroof or a wheel upgrade? They have typical prices for those. Go look at a Malibu or Cobalt options price list and start adding it up. (Quote)

Hate, that’s what people on this site thrive for.. The truth hurts, why hate so much? Remember, a couple of days ago, Opel came up with the $54k pricetag? Now you guys hate Baltimore for speaking his mind..

On the battery warranty, it should be 10yr/150k miles REGARDLESS where you live. What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander. I suppose cold climates like Canada will ruin batteries too, so GM going to reduce the warranty there too?

I speak my mind, and I don’t hate people. I do dislike things they do.. Let the hate flow through you, and I expect at least -15 points…

63

-4

RVD Says

May 3rd, 2010 (11:55 am)

Baltimore17:
Start your planning.They’ve already told us the base price.Forty thousand dollars.You want some options like leather, a sunroof or a wheel upgrade?They have typical prices for those.Go look at a Malibu or Cobalt options price list and start adding it up.

LOL, mine too. It took a while today for the troll to come out from under it’s bridge. Must be a “Left-coaster” (g). Hmm, or a lazy right-coaster. Definitely not a fly-over troll – both our hands are already occupied (g).

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

70

Michael Says

May 3rd, 2010 (12:27 pm)

Dave K.: The Volt song is really corny and should be parked next to the burgundy Malibu test mule somewhere in Northern Canada.

I sort of agree with Tagamet, “Everything is relative, but this one sure is better than the last one!”
That said, if you listened to the earlier one more then twice, as let your wife listen to it too, it started to get in your head. Scary.

71

jeffhree Says

May 3rd, 2010 (12:31 pm)

Tagamet: Wow, sounds like it’s almost all good news! Just release it everywhere but Tx and Florida and get ON with it! (LOL). Can you imagine how short a LEAF battery will last in hot climes? Also sounds like Gen I has some pluses (backup systems) over Gen II, AND Gen II has an edge over Gen I in places (less complex=fewer potential problems, lower pricing and/or better profit for GM).

DonC: It’s more a coast/inland issue than a North/South issue. Where I am in SoCal or in LA the average high in July is in the 70s. The average high in Davis in NoCal for the same period is in the 90s. Ya need to come out and visit! With your friends here you’ve got lots of places you can stay.

Go Ags!

73

DonC Says

May 3rd, 2010 (12:37 pm)

nasaman: I want to refer those interested in why I think GM (& Nissan) aren’t too worried about sizzling hot black top in large parking lots to my post #25

The Volt battery pack seems designed to withstand a nuclear blast. I think you’re right that a little heat from the road isn’t going to affect it very much. No idea about Nissan though.

Wait a minute. Don’t paint all of New Mexico and Arizona the same brush. That may be true for Phoenix, Tuscon, Carlsbad, and Las Cruces, but I’ll have you know northern New Mexico, and to some extent, northern Arizona are quite different from southern. We got about an inch of snow yesterday morning in northern New Mexico, whereas my daughter in Pennsylvania had to bring out the air conditioner to get her boys to go to sleep at 8:30pm.

DonC said: “It’s more a coast/inland issue than a North/South issue.” But it’s also low vs high elevation. We live at about 7000 feet. You may also visit us anytime. 😎

76

Loboc Says

May 3rd, 2010 (12:40 pm)

nasaman: I want to refer those interested in why I think GM (& Nissan) aren’t too worried about sizzling hot black top in large parking lots to my post #25; it’s been stuck awaiting approval for hours.

Good stuff!

With a full belly pan and this insulation heat from a cooked parking lot shouldn’t be an issue with either Volt or Leaf.

When I first moved to Texas, I measured 134F actual temp on the blacktop in front of my house. Ya couldn’t even walk on it because your tenners would stick!

77

+1

Exp_EngTech Says

May 3rd, 2010 (12:41 pm)

Price …. Schmice,For the first few months of production (thru year end), I say list each Volt on Ebay as it rolls off the line and let the bidding begin !
Should they have a "Buy It Now" price? What should it be?

78

Rashiid Amul Says

May 3rd, 2010 (12:47 pm)

nasaman:
MLI (multi-layer insulation) is fairly inexpensive & very lightweight. It’s likened to perhaps 10 vacuum jars in series and effectively prevents spacecraft from being harmed by the extremely harsh temperatures of space (-300 to +300 F) over long time spans. With MLI underneath the Leaf or Volt batteries, even extended exposures to boiling hot asphalt should not raise the battery temperatures appreciably. Air circulating through the Leaf battery (inside its MLI) should be adequate to keep the actual battery temperatures very moderate.

This is very comforting to know, Nasaman. Does GM know about this stuff?

79

+2

Michael Says

May 3rd, 2010 (12:47 pm)

Sort of OT, but:

GM sold 183,997 vehicles in April, up from 173,007 vehicles the same month a year ago when U.S. auto sales were near the bottom of a punishing slump and the automaker was sliding toward bankruptcy.

Sales for GM’s four remaining brands — Chevrolet, Buick, GMC and Cadillac — rose 20% from a year earlier to 183,091 vehicles.

Sales of the brands GM has dropped through its U.S. government-funded restructuring — Hummer, Pontiac, Saab and Saturn — plunged by 96% to just 906 vehicles as dealers sold off remaining inventory.

(Ford and Chrysler both up 25%)

80

Paul C from Austin Says

May 3rd, 2010 (1:01 pm)

koz: Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo. (Quote)

I wonder if Mr. Lutz has lost a little wieght, which would make him look taller.

81

jeffhree Says

May 3rd, 2010 (1:13 pm)

Michael: Wait a minute. Don’t paint all of New Mexico and Arizona the same brush. That may be true for Phoenix, Tuscon, Carlsbad, and Las Cruces, but I’ll have you know northern New Mexico, and to some extent, northern Arizona are quite different from southern. We got about an inch of snow yesterday morning in northern New Mexico, whereas my daughter in Pennsylvania had to bring out the air conditioner to get her boys to go to sleep at 8:30pm.
DonC said: “It’s more a coast/inland issue than a North/South issue.” But it’s also low vs high elevation. We live at about 7000 feet. You may also visit us anytime.

I’m in moderation with a longer comment but, The above areas without major coastal influences, a primarily continental weather pattern and moderate altitude effects…

82

DonC Says

May 3rd, 2010 (1:17 pm)

CaptJackSparrow: When you walk in to write your check to buy the Volt, your check will be “Full price” minus your down payment and when you drive off the lot, you have paid FULL price.

Unless GM leases the car, in which case it collects the rebates and you get a lower price. Not exactly cash back but it’s the next best thing.

CaptJackSparrow: Aw man, I think we could come up with something better, bang some trash can lids or somethin.

I heard that a week or two ago and my jaw almost dropped. I mean there are only, what, fifty million better tunes than this one? Personally I’d go with Belanova’s “Nino” as an ode to leaving the ICE past. If that’s too hard for a company trying to sell pickups then maybe Sean Paul’s “Remember”. It’s current and the lyrics could be interpreted as bringing back American’s love of the automobile or even rekindling the love affair with GM cars. Anything but what they came up with, which was something along the lines of “Old MacDonald Had A Farm”. Given the putative demographic for the Volt, this had to be about the worst choice imaginable since it assumes you have the musical taste of a five year old.

Or put it this way: Can you imagine Apple using this song for a roll out of a new product?

83

CaptJackSparrow Says

May 3rd, 2010 (1:25 pm)

nasaman: I want to refer those interested in why I think GM (& Nissan) aren’t too worried about sizzling hot black top in large parking lots to my post #25; it’s been stuck awaiting approval for hours.

I’m gonna take a swag on why they don’t see it as an issue. If you recall an online chat with Andrew Farah and that cute blonde when they were in Canada, I asked if the batt packs temp ever got as cold as ambient or outside temp over night. He indicated that the pack never got to those temps, in cold that is. I would expect it would perform the same in hot?
I guess if it is 100 F outside, the batt pack would be at least 15 F less and much less if garaged?

Anyway, that’s my SWAG.

84

Jim I Says

May 3rd, 2010 (1:44 pm)

I heard that a week or two ago and my jaw almost dropped. I mean there are only, what, fifty million better tunes than this one? Personally I’d go with Belanova’s “Nino” as an ode to leaving the ICE past. If that’s too hard for a company trying to sell pickups then maybe Sean Paul’s “Remember”. It’s current and the lyrics could be interpreted as bringing back American’s love of the automobile or even rekindling the love affair with GM cars. Anything but what they came up with, which was something along the lines of “Old MacDonald Had A Farm”. Given the putative demographic for the Volt, this had to be about the worst choice imaginable since it assumes you have the musical taste of a five year old.
Or put it this way: Can you imagine Apple using this song for a roll out of a new product?

But that’s changing. I’ve driven the new Chevy Volt. It’s different from the Prius in that it’s a fully electric car with an electric generator powered by a 1.4-liter gas engine. But unlike the Nissan Leaf, the Mini E and some of the other electrics, this is a car you could drive from L.A. to San Francisco, with the gas engine kicking in when needed. I think that’s a real breakthrough. And I applaud GM for taking a risk with such new technology

86

+4

CDAVIS Says

May 3rd, 2010 (1:53 pm)

______________________________________________________________
From Lyle’s article, Lutz said:
“…So that very very large provision for battery warranty I think that’s going to give us some daylight for potentially lowering the price a little bit, or potentially making a little money on the car, or how about all of the above…Yes it is good news, because our experience with battery aging and thousands of cycle on the battery is actually considerably better than what we had planned.”
———————-

I don’t know how Lyle does it but he somehow manages to relentlessly crank out excellent Volt juice for us Voltalcoholics.

In the spirit of Lutz pointing out the downstream benefits of battery longevity, I hereby forward to Lutz (his being the battery head that he is and knowing that he surfs this site) a personal reach out from the CEO of the largest ultracapacitor company in the world (David Schramm – CEO / Maxwell Technologies):

Lutz and Schramm talking shop over a cold bear may be productive. Schramm could use guidance in navigating around the USA auto guys and Lutz knows the which buttons to push to make that happen.
____________________________________________________________________

87

LRGVProVolt Says

May 3rd, 2010 (1:55 pm)

#34 Michael: I haven’t figured out the means that others have for formatting (e.g. boldface), so for emphasis I use a tip from Tagamet and put a “*” before and after the word, i.e., *James.*

Michael, just use this format to get bold type. Surround the bold type with the opening tag, , and closing tag, . For example b enclosed in quotes , and /b enclosed in quotes gives you , This is bold.

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.

88

+2

Volt45 Says

May 3rd, 2010 (2:02 pm)

Volt45: OT, Jay Leno on the state of the auto industry and American competitiveness in general:http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/jay-leno/vintage/jay_leno_american_cars_poised_for_comebackexcerpt:But that’s changing. I’ve driven the new Chevy Volt. It’s different from the Prius in that it’s a fully electric car with an electric generator powered by a 1.4-liter gas engine. But unlike the Nissan Leaf, the Mini E and some of the other electrics, this is a car you could drive from L.A. to San Francisco, with the gas engine kicking in when needed. I think that’s a real breakthrough. And I applaud GM for taking a risk with such new technology

next paragraph:

It’s fun to see engineers running car companies again, rather than accountants. GM has real engineers in place now, like Mark Reuss, its new U.S. president, and Tom Stephens, who’s in charge of GM’s global product operations. These gearheads are now calling the shots. That’ll help the turnaround.

Thanks Volt45 for the Leno link. Yeah, let’s HOPE the engineers are running the company! Not like the EV-1 where the accountants crushed ( literally ) all their incredible hard work.

Here’s another nugget from the inteview:

“And there are already imitators, like the upscale Fisker, which essentially uses a Volt-style powertrain but in a fancy body style. That sort of technology will be the way to go. In the 1900s, people believed electricity was the best way to power an automobile. It was quiet; there was no pollution compared to horses dumping manure; you could park one indoors without suffocating anybody. You just couldn’t go very far.”

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

RECHARGE! James

IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.

P.S. Manure is biodegradable, oil is not. Haven’t ever heard of a manure spill ruining the lives of thousands and staining an entire ecosystem for decades. Then again, hope GM isn’t serving us a big load of manure – that would really stink.

91

Zachary Taylor (Jackson) Says

May 3rd, 2010 (2:34 pm)

Tagamet: Excellent advice. Now I need to go back and find a post from Zach (lol).

I’m getting really tired of the price hold out. They HAVE to know by now what the price is going to be. Tell us for cry’n out loud. Tell us what the damn MSRP is going to be instead of constantly referring to the rebates and subsidies. Sheesh

93

Herm Says

May 3rd, 2010 (2:46 pm)

nasaman: MLI (multi-layer insulation) is fairly inexpensive & very lightweight. It’s likened to perhaps 10 vacuum jars in series and effectively prevents spacecraft from being harmed by the extremely harsh temperatures of space (-300 to +300 F) over long time spans. With MLI underneath the Leaf or Volt batteries, even extended exposures to boiling hot asphalt should not raise the battery temperatures appreciably. Air circulating through the Leaf battery (inside its MLI) should be adequate to keep the actual battery temperatures very moderate.

Nasaman, MLI only works in the vacuum of space.. one of the Volt engineers (Hannah I think) stated the Volt’s T pack used expensive insulation.. probably some sort of aviation fiberglass based for fire reasons.

94

Estero Says

May 3rd, 2010 (2:47 pm)

nasaman: … SoCal, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Florida, etc climates should NOT be a threat to long-term battery life in my opinion

Sure hope you are right on this one. I live in SW Florida along the Gulf coast and have been very concerned about how the summer heat & humidity might affect the Volt battery life.

95

+1

Herm Says

May 3rd, 2010 (2:58 pm)

CDAVIS: In the spirit of Lutz pointing out the downstream benefits of battery longevity, I hereby forward to Lutz (his being the battery head that he is and knowing that he surfs this site) a personal reach out from the CEO of the largest ultracapacitor company in the world (David Schramm – CEO / Maxwell Technologies):

Those are self-serving statements by the CEO of that company, ultracapacitors would not help the Volt in any form.. they work in other types of electric cars using different types of battery chemistry.. note how he did not mention any specifics.

96

Herm Says

May 3rd, 2010 (3:04 pm)

Estero: Sure hope you are right on this one. I live in SW Florida along the Gulf coast and have been very concerned about how the summer heat & humidity might affect the Volt battery life.

Humidity should have no effect since its a sealed battery pack.. true that high humidity makes humans feel hot but that is because it is harder for the sweat to evaporate (the evaporation is what cools us).. the Volt’s battery pack does not sweat and thus is not affected by the humidity. Now it would be pedantic if someone tells me that humid air due to its density does not work well with radiators

Road salt and snow may not be a good combination for the electric connections.. but GM learned how to deal with these problems many years ago.

97

+1

Herm Says

May 3rd, 2010 (3:07 pm)

James: P.S. Manure is biodegradable, oil is not. Haven’t ever heard of a manure spill ruining the lives of thousands and staining an entire ecosystem for decades. Then again, hope GM isn’t serving us a big load of manure – that would really stink.

Oil and tar are also biodegradable, after all it was made from algae.

98

Herm Says

May 3rd, 2010 (3:15 pm)

BillR: A base Cruze goes for about $17k. This includes a turbo on the 1.4L engine and a six speed auto.
Trade in the turbo and 6 speed for a 2-mode transmission, power electronics, and a battery pack. Also add in aero improvements and a fancy instrument panel. Even with a $20k adder (which I consider extremely generous), this still comes out to $37k for the Volt.

We dont know what the Cruze will sell for either.. I think every single electric car component was bought from outside GM (motors, batteries, inverters etc), that cant be cheap, not until GM gears up and takes over manufacturing these items will the price of the Volt drop. That depends on high volume production of course.

If GM could source these components from different suppliers then competition (among the 3rd party suppliers) would also force the costs lower, but everything in the Volt is new and custom built. That is why I think the Volts T Pack should be battery chemistry agnostic.

99

+4

CaptJackSparrow Says

May 3rd, 2010 (3:18 pm)

Hey, I just had a thought. Scary I know.
You know the states that are going to get the BP crude sh|t on their beaches? Well, wouldn’t it be a great place to roll out both the Volt and the LEAF or whatever EV/PHEV there and have billboard slogans saying “Get off that crude sh|t….”

/you get what I mean though right? 😛

100

Herm Says

May 3rd, 2010 (3:22 pm)

DonC: The Volt battery pack seems designed to withstand a nuclear blast. I think you’re right that a little heat from the road isn’t going to affect it very much. No idea about Nissan though.

This is worrysome about the LEAF, by definition an air cooled pack (such as the LEAF uses) cannot use insulation.. it is true that their cells are designed to handle high temperatures so perhaps thats how they deal with it.

101

Matthew_B Says

May 3rd, 2010 (3:38 pm)

Herm: Humidity should have no effect since its a sealed battery pack.. true that high humidity makes humans feel hot but that is because it is harder for the sweat to evaporate (the evaporation is what cools us).. the Volt’s battery pack does not sweat and thus is not affected by the humidity.

Humid air means that the A/C must work harder to keep the occupants comfortable. Run the A/C harder, and it sucks more juice from the battery, and hence less range.

102

Matthew_B Says

May 3rd, 2010 (3:41 pm)

Herm: This is worrysome about the LEAF, by definition an air cooled pack (such as the LEAF uses) cannot use insulation.. it is true that their cells are designed to handle high temperatures so perhaps thats how they deal with it.

We’ve seen no details on the LEAF so I don’t think we can prognosticate for sure.

The LEAF battery may have insulation, a heater and controllable ventilation. That would mean that it is still “air cooled” but the temperature is controllable.

103

Loboc Says

May 3rd, 2010 (4:00 pm)

CDAVIS: Lutz and Schramm talking shop over a cold bear may be productive.

Lol. I hope you meant ‘beer’ not ‘bear’. Talking shop near a Polar Bear could be very dangerous.

104

Loboc Says

May 3rd, 2010 (4:06 pm)

Exp_EngTech:
Price …. Schmice,For the first few months of production (thru year end), I say list each Volt on Ebay as it rolls off the line and let the bidding begin !
Should they have a “Buy It Now” price? What should it be?

I wouldn’t use a ‘buy-it-now’. Just set the reserve at cost.

I’m sure some enterprising person will auction at least one off. Possibly a dealer.

If it’s a low VIN it’d be considered an instant collectible I’m thinking. VIN xx00001 (I hope it goes to Lyle) would probably be worth a cool million.

105

George Says

May 3rd, 2010 (4:07 pm)

Dave K.: Will stick with $35,900 as my guess on sticker price. GM would not be wise to ask $39+k in this economy. Orders would heavily exceed production at 32k.=D-Volt (Quote)

I’m sticking with my gut instinct here that Whitacre’s estimate to Lyle of a sticker price of “low 30,000’s” (pre-rebate) can to some extent be be taken literally and relied upon. Dave K. is correct that GM wouldn’t want to introduce such a vehicle at too high a price in the midst of a slow economy. The previous GM estimates/leaks of $39,000 to $40,000 in my opinion were part marketing move (to low-ball expectations), and in part a reflection of GM’s Congressional lobbying efforts in 2008 to secure the $7,500 gov’t rebate, which now doesn’t appear to be in any grave danger of being revoked…

Regards, George, Canada…go Volt…

106

CDAVIS Says

May 3rd, 2010 (4:08 pm)

_______________________________________________________________________
#103 Loboc said:
“Lol. I hope you meant ‘beer’ not ‘bear’. Talking shop near a Polar Bear could be very dangerous.”
———————-

hahaha….yes I did mean “beer”.
_______________________________________________________________________

107

CDAVIS Says

May 3rd, 2010 (4:12 pm)

____________________________________________________________________
# 95 Herm Said:
“Those are self-serving statements by the CEO of that company, ultracapacitors would not help the Volt in any form.. they work in other types of electric cars using different types of battery chemistry.. note how he did not mention any specifics.”
——————————

Herm,
WADR, that’s not correct.

Solid state ultracaps can serve as a load shock absorber for chemistry based battery packs (including the Volt’s Li-ion pack) therefore reducing wear on the Li-ion pack which in turn would extend the life of the battery pack. With regards to “specifics”, the first Schramm blog article I provided in my above # 86 comment includes Schramm providing a link to a report that contains a bunch of technical specifics: http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/45835.pdf
______________________________________________________________________

CDAVIS: Solid state ultracaps can serve as a load shock absorber for chemistry based battery packs (including the Volt’s Li-ion pack) therefore reducing wear on the Li-ion pack which in turn would extend the life of the battery pack.

I agree with you on that subject but the issue is that one, the Volts Batt pack is ~336VDC Nominal and my SWAG of 355.2VDC Fully charged. That takes a boatload of caps in series to achieve the max VDC to match the max batt pack VDC. Second, it will cost a boatload more to use those Ultracaps.

I hate to say this but the only design that comes to mind is, cough cough cough……EEStor. That EESU will be designed for high voltage around 400V to 600V. A buck converter will need to be used to bring it down to a more adequate voltage for automotive use. Unless of course they bump the voltage up for the power electronics to accommodate the EESU.

/yuk phoey, I said EEStor……..blah…..barf.

110

Frank B Says

May 3rd, 2010 (4:42 pm)

koz: Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo.

I’ve never seen the Volt in person but I agree, that REALLY is a small car! As much as I love the whole Volt concept I’ll have to see the car in person now before I commit to a purchase. I sure hope it seems a whole bigger on the inside!

Herm:
Nasaman, MLI only works in the vacuum of space.. one of the Volt engineers (Hannah I think) stated the Volt’s T pack used expensive insulation.. probably some sort of aviation fiberglass based for fire reasons.

You’re right that space-intended MLI only works in space (obviously because it relies on the vacuum of space). My hope is that GM engineering simulated the effect of MLI by using layers of insulating walls with a sealed-in vacuum between layers to achieve a similar result —IOW, as I said above, analogous to several vacuum jars in series.

Tagamet: *Absolutely!* I’d venture that, say, Pennsylvania, would be the sweet spot (g). We’re “just right” on SO many levels…Just saying….(wink).Be well and believe,TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS(Quote)

Nothin’ could be fina, than a Volt in Carolina.
If it’s tomorrow mornin’, that’d be even better.

113

+1

Dave K. Says

May 3rd, 2010 (5:05 pm)

Frank B: I’ll have to see the car in person now before I commit to a purchase. I sure hope it seems a whole bigger on the inside!

The Volt is about the size of the 2010 BMW M3 4dr sedan. The M3 stickers at $50k.

=D-Volt

114

Zachary Taylor (Jackson) Says

May 3rd, 2010 (5:11 pm)

Herm:
Nasaman, MLI only works in the vacuum of space.. one of the Volt engineers (Hannah I think) stated the Volt’s T pack used expensive insulation.. probably some sort of aviation fiberglass based for fire reasons.

nasaman:
You’re right that space-intended MLI only works in space (obviously because it relies on the vacuum of space). My hope is that GM engineering simulated the effect of MLI by using layers of insulating walls with a sealed-in vacuum between layers to achieve a similar result —IOW, as I said above, analogous to several vacuum jars in series.

Frank B:
I’ve never seen the Volt in person but I agree, that REALLY is a small car!As much as I love the whole Volt concept I’ll have to see the car in person now before I commit to a purchase.I sure hope it seems a whole bigger on the inside!

I have, and it seemed fine to me (but then again, I prefer smaller cars). Space inside seemed more than adequate for four.

Dave K.: The Volt is about the size of the 2010 BMW M3 4dr sedan. The M3 stickers at $50k.=D-Volt (Quote)

M3s are quite a bit faster than Volts, but they have an adiction thats hard to ignore.

117

Zachary Taylor (Jackson) Says

May 3rd, 2010 (5:24 pm)

“it could be that in certain very hot climates where people leave this thing in a baking supermarket parking lot all day, these lithium ion batteries, if they get much over 95 or 100 degrees Fahrenheit, they quickly start losing life. So we may have to adjust warrantees, but we really haven’t decided how to do that yet.”

… which sounds like REALLY BAD NEWS for someone (me) hoping to use a Volt in the Atlanta area. It will be interesting to see how this effect influences Volt rollout timing, down here. Since I am not in a position to buy a new car in the near term anyway, I hope that there will be some improvement by Gen II. (GM engineers: did you see that link {#114} about aerogels?)

118

+2

James Says

May 3rd, 2010 (5:34 pm)

Herm: Oil and tar are also biodegradable, after all it was made from algae. (Quote)

You can make a pat statement and technically be correct. I’m not someone to have to always be right. But you just can’t make a short statement like that and think you’ll get away with it ;).

Perhaps then, we all should pour our motor oil on the grass, farmers should use crude to fertilize their fields, and all this fuss about the Gulf oil disaster is just sensationalism. Folks that live in Alaska will tell you the Valdez spill 23 years later still has ruined the fishing industry there, devastated the ecosystem and numerous lives. Petroleum based plastics will biodegrade someday too-sure -under the right conditions in just the correct setting, if you have a few million years to hang around to see it happen.

Of all the environmental buzzwords “biodegradable” has perhaps been the most misused and the most difficult to understand. A leaf is a perfect example of a biodegradable product — it is made in the spring, used by the plant for photosynthesis in the summer, drops to the ground in autumn and assimilated into the soil to nourish the plant for the next season. The basic concept seems straightforward enough, however, there are several factors to consider in determining the biodegradability of a product or material.

The first is the question of the inherent biodegradability of the material. Any material that comes from nature will return to nature as long as it is still in a relatively natural form.

The next issue is how long it takes for the material to actually break down. In nature, different materials biodegrade at different rates. A leaf takes approximately a year to become part of the forest floor. An iron shovel, on the other hand, can take years to rust away to nothing and a large tree can take decades to completely break down. Common sense tells us that any material will ultimately biodegrade, even if it takes centuries.

So what is the proper rate for a material to be biodegradable? It really depends on the material.

And then there is the question of what exactly does the product or material break down into and are there any toxic substances formed along the way or as the end result. In his book The Closing Circle, ecologist Barry Commoner gives the example of the benzene unit in synthetic detergents being converted as it biodegrades into phenol (carbolic acid), a substance toxic to fish. To be truly biodegradable, a substance or material should break down into carbon dioxide (a nutrient for plants), water and naturally occurring minerals that do not cause harm to the ecosystem (salt or baking soda, for example, are already in their natural mineral state and do not need to biodegrade).

The characteristics of the environment that the substance or material is in can also affect its ability to biodegrade. Detergents, for example, might break down in a natural freshwater “aerobic” (having oxygen) environment, but not in a “anaerobic” (lacking oxygen) environment such as sewage treatment plant digestors, or natural ecosystems such as swamps, flooded soils or surface water sediments.

Many products that are inherently biodegradable in soil, such as tree trimmings, food wastes, and paper, will not biodegrade when we place them in landfills because the artificial landfill environment lacks the light, water and bacterial activity required for the decay process to begin.

Crude oil obviously does not biodegrade in seawater or soil in such a way that it’s not toxic to the environment for ages. Exxon tossed some money at the Valdez spill, spent alot of money on lawyers and media announcements, eventually walked away Bushlike – saying “Mission Accomplished, cleanup completed!”, patting itself on the back as they actually profited from the oil spill after all the tax deductions they recieved for the money spent trying to restore what they tainted.

All-in-all Herm, it’s one thing to spring a “Right Answer” technically – but quite another to be right. Or else it’s all bull manure.

RECHARGE! James

IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME

119

Evil Conservative Says

May 3rd, 2010 (5:38 pm)

koz: Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo. (Quote)

In the U.S., I believe emissions standards are based pollutants per gallon of fuel, not per mile of driving. So this means a diesel engine in the U.S. needs all sorts of extra emissions stuff on it, which makes it more complex and expensive than a gasoline engine.

Peter McGarr: I don’t think I would pay much over 30k by the way for a Chevrolet eh.

Peter McGarr: My “green” choice for a new vehicle would be a TDI at around 21K. COME ON GM you want us to bail you out again by selling a expensive green vehicle.

The TDI still uses petroleum as it’s only fuel source. The Volt’s primary fuel source is electricity. Whether you’re interested in energy independence or climate change, that’s a huge difference. The bottom line is that efficiency alone won’t get us there. We need alternate sources of energy, and that’s exactly what electricity gives us.

What’s more, the Volt may actually be cheaper to own than the TDI. If you believe in peak oil, prices are sure to rise. At $4/gallon, the Volt saves more than $5000 in fuel costs compared to a 50 MPG car.
You may not own the car for 10 years, but someone will, and $500/year in fuel savings over a Prius or TDI will surely increase resale value.

And then there’s maintenance costs. VW’s repair history is even worse than GM’s:
What’s more, a typical driver will only put 20,000 miles on the Volt’s gas engine over the life of the car. How many repairs do you typically need at 20,000 miles? The rest of the drive train has fewer parts (e.g. no transmission), so maintenance on the Volt should be much less. Probably just 1 synthetic oil change per year, and maybe change other fluids at 5 years.

121

koz Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:08 pm)

Frank B: I’ve never seen the Volt in person but I agree, that REALLY is a small car! As much as I love the whole Volt concept I’ll have to see the car in person now before I commit to a purchase. I sure hope it seems a whole bigger on the inside! (Quote)

I was actually joking because the scale between Lutz and the Volt looked off. I assumed it was a photoshopped image but maybe it’s all angles

122

Dan Petit Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:11 pm)

Hey Dave G.
That Consumers Reports yellow graph line about the Toyota is now completely invalid.
I say, just drop the Toyota line off the graph entirely, because it is now
extremely inaccurate and inappropriate.
Don C is entirely correct that it is out of date, due primarily to the 8.6 million Toyota recalls.
In addition to what is already known, there are some more additional widespread things that many vehicle OEM’s, (esp. Toyota) will have to deal with in the very near future from what we are seeing out here a lot sooner in the independent shops (from the exceptional heat of the last Southern summer triggering faults and exceptional accelerated wear patterns).

I find these trends really worrisome for the Toyota owner. Toyota no longer deserves this now-falsely-positive and now invalid yellow-line graph to be placed here on this site in the interest of accuracy. They certainly have their work cut out for them, and I sincerely hope they get all these things remedied soon.

All these things cause me to be *VERY* patient for whatever GM needs to do for long term testing regarding Voltec.

123

James Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:13 pm)

Not sure if post #122 showed up or not – this “under moderation” thing is frustrating.

But about those two little “nibs” located on the gray plastic spoiler, near the center below, and to either side of where the front license plate will be located They showed up after the concept Volt and in the pre-production and production validation cars…..

Captain Jack, would it be inappropriate if I asked the engineers if those only show up when it’s cold or wet?

L L shame on me!

RECHARGE!

IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME

124

koz Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:15 pm)

Herm: This is worrysome about the LEAF, by definition an air cooled pack (such as the LEAF uses) cannot use insulation.. it is true that their cells are designed to handle high temperatures so perhaps thats how they deal with it. (Quote)

It could be forced, conditioned air they are using to cool it and still be insulated from the outside environment.

125

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:16 pm)

DonC: …Anything but what they came up with, which was something along the lines of “Old MacDonald Had A Farm”. Given the putative demographic for the Volt, this had to be about the worst choice imaginable since it assumes you have the musical taste of a five year old.

Give me a few more years like this past couple and I’m definitely headed toward “five year old” level (g).

126

Zachary Taylor (Jackson) Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:19 pm)

koz:
It could be forced, conditioned air they are using to cool it and still be insulated from the outside environment.

I thought I heard that the LEAF pack is cooled by interior air; so you could say that A/C has an effect on battery conditioning — in a primitive sort of way. It wouldn’t have an effect while the car is parked, for example; and any serious attempt to deal with extreme outside temperatures would be expensive in terms of a reduction in available range: especially during the winter.

In the deep South during the summer, interior air heating in a parked car is very bad news for the Nissan; untended children and pets die every year in blazing hot parked cars in Atlanta. It will be important for southern LEAF owners to remember to open the doors for a minute or two when returning to their scorching vehicles.

127

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:26 pm)

CDAVIS: …Lutz and Schramm talking shop over a cold bear may be productive. Schramm could use guidance in navigating around the USA auto guys and Lutz knows the which buttons to push to make that happen.

DonC: AFAIK the Volt system is not similar to that used by the Tesla. The Volt’s pack is sealed and the liquid is electronically heated and cooled. The Tesla pack is not sealed and the liquid is air cooled. (Quote)

Tesla’s is not air cooled, or I should say it is not only air cooled. They use a compressor and refrigerant to condition the coolant for the pack. The coolant is run in a separate loop from the passanger compartment’s coolant. See the excerpt below from Tesla’s blog post about their HVAC system:

“At the other end of the scale, we have fitted our cars with an all-electric air conditioning system to keep things cool. This uses a compressor similar to the one in a domestic fridge — only ours is blue and works off 400 volts. It’s at the front of the car, and pumps the refrigerant through the chiller unit in much the same way as a standard car’s system.

There is one added complication, though — we also have a requirement to keep the ESS cool. The ESS has its own coolant circuit, with a pump that circulates a water/glycol antifreeze mix round the ESS and then through a separate chiller unit to the right of the ESS behind the passenger door. This allows us to achieve cell temperatures within a range that supports long life and efficient performance. (See our recent blog, A Bit About Batteries.) The cooling will also distribute heat within the pack to minimize temperature variations amongst the cells in the system.”
-http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=43

130

CaptJackSparrow Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:33 pm)

James: Captain Jack, would it be inappropriate if I asked the engineers if those only show up when it’s cold or wet?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!

Let’s throw cold water on it and see what “comes up”………Volt gone wIlD!!

131

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (6:54 pm)

Now that I think about it, I haven’t heard much from LauraM lately. I hope she’s ok.

ECO_Turbo: Dave K.: The Volt is about the size of the 2010 BMW M3 4dr sedan. The M3 stickers at $50k.=D-Volt (Quote)

M3s are quite a bit faster than Volts, but they have an addiction that’s hard to ignore.

Correction: The M3 starts at 52k. 16mpg city.

=D-Volt

134

James Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:10 pm)

Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
I thought I heard that the LEAF pack is cooled by interior air; so you could say that A/C has an effect on battery conditioning — in a primitive sort of way.It wouldn’t have an effect while the car is parked, for example; and any serious attempt to deal with extreme outside temperatures would be expensive in terms of a reduction in available range: especially during the winter.In the deep South during the summer, interior air heating in a parked car is very bad news for the Nissan; untended children and pets die every year in blazing hot parked cars in Atlanta.It will be important for southern LEAF owners to remember to open the doors for a minute or two when returning to their scorching vehicles.

The Leaf needs a smartphone app like Volt to pre-condition the interior, and a solar panel roof.

Wow Jackson, it is so sad that people leave their kids and pets inside their cars unattended.
My Mom used to leave my sister and I in the car for hours while she shopped – maybe that’s why I’m brain dead! .

My wife left our then 3 year old in her car seat while she walked twenty feet away to place some letters in the postal box. A passing policewoman ticketed her for child negligence even though she could toss a paper airplane and hit the car and was in plain sight. This is what is called backlash due to the issue you stated. Of course, two days later the Child Protective Officer shows up to interview the family – and ironically she ended up praying with us and sobbing on our couch confessing to us she felt negligent to her kids since she worked so much! So in the end, perhaps it was meant to be!

My Prius has a similar cooling “system” for it’s NIMHs. There’s a large air vent to one side of the rear seat. I wouldn’t exactly call it “primitive” though. Primitive was my ’69 Beetle with it’s cooling system: wind wings! And, of course, it’s radiant heating system, unforced warmth off the air-cooled flat four that took ten minutes to find it’s way through channeling into the cabin on cold Winter days. I remember traveling to work down the freeway with a gloved, frozen hand out the window scraping ice off the flat windshield, my breath freezing in mid-air! Now that’s primitive!

Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Frank B:
I’ve never seen the Volt in person but I agree, that REALLY is a small car!As much as I love the whole Volt concept I’ll have to see the car in person now before I commit to a purchase.I sure hope it seems a whole bigger on the inside!

I have, and it seemed fine to me (but then again, I prefer smaller cars). Space inside seemed more than adequate for four.

Ditto on all counts. In fact, even with four er, more than average sized men (read – WAY more), it felt roomy.
I think that the picture of Bob with the Volt above is deceptive. Bob is tall and he usually wears flats, but in the picture, he’s obviously wearing his ‘heels.

EXCELLENT! Thanks.
(Maybe we’ll have an MSRP by then)(lol)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

138

+1

jbfalaska Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:33 pm)

The CUV version is bigger. Still, I like the refreshing ride of a small/medium car. The supercharged Buick Regal is a blast, yet lands good mileage. With the Volt torque at 273 HP feel, that’s fantastic. And no Middle-East oil baron spewing anti-American slogans sitting beside me while I drive.

139

+1

Dan Petit Says

May 3rd, 2010 (7:44 pm)

I hope that when the Volt pricing is actually announced, that just a single number isn’t just thrown out.
A set of two or three price options would be really helpful, because many of us do not want lots of options.

If there were to be a situation where a really basic set of options (A/C, Power windows, mirrors, locks, and a single CD) for one level of trim, and, another different level of trim that has all the other additional stuff many others would like, well, that would help a lot.

It really ought not to be as much of a concern about whether or not Volt can be sold down here in the South at first, but, it is more important for the longer term for the various pricing as well as for climate-availability to at least be able to plan.
If other things need to be planned for in the place of a Volt purchase instead, many need to know about the climate-non-availability final decision soon, so as to be able to redirect our planning. (Biz expansion or whatever).

(The laws of physics are pretty darn absolute, so, if waiting is the only option, at least there might be price options for whenever Volt can indeed be sold in the hotter climates and when.)

The reason I mention this is because we are now in the second quarter of the year, and, financial planning timeliness for many of us for the rest of the year and through to this time next year is now at hand. At this point, it is not just a matter of what GM needs to sell Volt at, it is also now what many of us need to plan for or not plan for.

Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
I thought I heard that the LEAF pack is cooled by interior air; so you could say that A/C has an effect on battery conditioning — in a primitive sort of way.It wouldn’t have an effect while the car is parked, for example; and any serious attempt to deal with extreme outside temperatures would be expensive in terms of a reduction in available range: especially during the winter.In the deep South during the summer, interior air heating in a parked car is very bad news for the Nissan; untended children and pets die every year in blazing hot parked cars in Atlanta.It will be important for southern LEAF owners to remember to open the doors for a minute or two when returning to their scorching vehicles.

You did hear that, but it was wrong. The LEAF battery pack is completely sealed. It has an internal fan that circulates air so heat generated in the center gets to the relatively cool outside surface. I do not know details about insulation but it would be perfectly reasonable for parts of the container to be insulated if they thought there were hot spots to deal with.

142

+1

Dave K. Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:02 pm)

Dan Petit: …when the Volt pricing is actually announced, that just a single number isn’t just thrown out.

Hope GMAC, ALLY, or some other form of financing can convert the State and Federal tax credits to instant rebates. This will be huge in this economic environment. Think The White House would consider 1.9% on the purchase of EV? They will get what they want. More EV on the road. And and source of income as well.

Just as hundreds of small changes in aero add up to 40 miles electric on the Volt. Small changes in finance enabling will pay dividends for all involved.

=D-Volt

143

bintoo Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:32 pm)

koz: Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo. (Quote)

Bob is 78, he’s been shriking for Years!

144

Zachary Taylor (Jackson) Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:44 pm)

Tagamet:
It sure would be a lot easier if you’d just post the darn tag!!! LOLBe well and believe,
TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

What, you wanted me to make it easy? 😉

Actually, I forget what the instruction is that says “don’t operate on this tag, just show it.” The problem with showing html syntax is that it gets absorbed by the browser to produce the effect that the tag calls for.

I figured that anyone curious enough would look at image source, FWIW.

If you keep in mind that the tags are bracketed between the less-than (upper case of the comma) and greater-than (upper case of the period) symbols (instead of between parenthesis), it’s pretty easy to use “i” and “/i” at the beginning and end of a word or phrase to be italicized, or “b” and “/b” to ‘bracket’ a word or phrase to be bolded. You can also nest “i” “/i” inside of “b” “/b” (in either order) to have bolded italics.

I’ve always used the word “strike” (and “/strike”) to bracket strike-out text words; that seems to work in most places.

One would normally use “u” for underlined text, but Lyle has this turned off.

You can use the word “blockquote” (and “/blockquote”) to make a nice, set-off block of italicized text, just as though you had selected a comment to quote, though I suspect that only works here.

The tag for inserting an image is “img” (and “/img”). The part in between is a URL to the image being inserted. If you don’t have a web site to post images on, Tinypic (www.tinypic.com) makes a good free place to upload and quote URLs from. You just have to be aware that the path they generate uses the tag capitalized (“IMG” and “/IMG”), and that this site only accepts the tag in lower case. You should also note that they go inside brackets (“[” and “]”) instead of less-than and greater-than symbols.

145

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:56 pm)

Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
What, you wanted me to make it easy?
Actually, I forget what the instruction is that says “don’t operate on this tag, just show it.”The problem with showing html syntax is that it gets absorbed by the browser to produce the effect that the tag calls for.I figured that anyone curious enough would look at image source, FWIW.If you keep in mind that the tags are bracketed between the less-than (upper case of the comma) and greater-than (upper case of the period) symbols (instead of between parenthesis), it’s pretty easy to use “i” and “/i” at the beginning and end of a word or phrase to be italicized, or “b” and “/b” to ‘bracket’ a word or phrase to be bolded.You can also nest “i” “/i” inside of “b” “/b” (in either order) to have bolded italics.I’ve always used the word “strike” (and “/strike”) to bracket strike-out text words; that seems to work in most places.One would normally use “u” for underlined text, but Lyle has this turned off.
The tag for inserting an image is “img” (and “/img”).The part in between is a URL to the image being inserted.If you don’t have a web site to post images on, Tinypic (www.tinypic.com) makes a good free place to upload and quote URLs from.You just have to be aware that the path they generate uses the tag capitalized (“IMG” and “/IMG”), and that this site only accepts the tag in lower case.You should also note that they go inside brackets(“[” and “]“) instead of less-than and greater-than.

Wow, I got the whole course, when I was looking for the “strike” part. THANKS!, er, I mean THANK YOU! I’d tried just “S” and “/S”, but that definitely doesn’t work, and you’re right “underline” must be turned off.
Thanks again,

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

146

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (8:58 pm)

bintoo: koz: Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo. (Quote)

Bob is 78, he’s been shrinking for Years!

Then he must have started at about 7′ 2″.

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

147

Matthew B Says

May 3rd, 2010 (9:47 pm)

Zachary Taylor (Jackson): I thought I heard that the LEAF pack is cooled by interior air; so you could say that A/C has an effect on battery conditioning — in a primitive sort of way. It wouldn’t have an effect while the car is parked, for example; and any serious attempt to deal with extreme outside temperatures would be expensive in terms of a reduction in available range: especially during the winter.

An EV battery has a pretty good thermal time constant. If the battery is heated during charge and is insulated well, it won’t cool much in the 12-18 hours until it’s charged again.

Ditto with A/C in the summer. If the A/C is used on line power to “chill” the battery, it won’t warm all that much during discharge.

148

DonC Says

May 3rd, 2010 (9:48 pm)

koz: They use a compressor and refrigerant to condition the coolant for the pack.

The article says that they use a compressor and refrigerant to cool the cabin. They use a separate system to cool the pack. No mention of a compressor or refrigerant for this circuit, only a “chiller unit”. Without mention of a compressor I’d assume this is a simple heat exchanger aka air cooled process. I’ve never looked at a Tesla, but if that wasn’t the case, and if Tesla did use a compressor and refrigerant to cool the pack, why does the battery overheat on hot days?

149

Matthew B Says

May 3rd, 2010 (9:50 pm)

Tagamet: Now that I think about it, I haven’t heard much from LauraM lately. I hope she’s ok.

She is on a three week vacation.

150

jeffhree Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:16 pm)

DonC: I’ve never looked at a Tesla, but if that wasn’t the case, and if Tesla did use a compressor and refrigerant to cool the pack, why does the battery overheat on hot days?

My understanding is that when the motor overheats, power is reduced (125 mph top speed and max acceleration are no longer available). I have not heard of any reports that the battery overheats.

151

Van Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:23 pm)

I see the April USA hybrid sales numbers are in, GM selling around 550 hybrids, Ford selling 5 times that much or around 2800 hybrids and Toyota selling more than 5 times more than Ford.
Prius sales where up about 6% over last month, but up about 50% over last year. So it seems public perception still has Toyota putting out superior overall performance for less money than the USA car companies.

A lot was in the news about Toyota’s acceleration problem, but the rate was around one in 10,000 vehicles, whereas some of the black dot vehicles from GM had problem rates over one in 100.

The Volt is an elegant design, but unless the whole culture at GM has changed, the public may continue to just plug in somewhere down dealership row.

152

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:30 pm)

Matthew B: Tagamet: Now that I think about it, I haven’t heard much from LauraM lately. I hope she’s ok.

She is on a three week vacation.

Good for her! I miss her comments.

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

153

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:44 pm)

Van: …The Volt is an elegant design, but unless the whole culture at GM has changed, the public may continue to just plug in somewhere down dealership row.

Which plugins are you referring to?

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

154

Ed M Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:44 pm)

koz: Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo. (Quote)

its called retirement and the weight of GMs past bad decisions lifted off his shoulders

155

Tagamet Says

May 3rd, 2010 (10:51 pm)

Ed M: koz: Did the Volt shrink or did Bob Lutz grow? Something looks out of scale in the photo. (Quote)

its called retirement and the weight of GMs past bad decisions lifted off his shoulders

And well deserved too!
Thanks again, Bob.

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

156

+1

Itching4it Says

May 3rd, 2010 (11:46 pm)

Noel Park:
#39 Well, not to steal CaptJack’s thunder, but, as a resident of “BrokeAzz” California, I don’t think that the amount of money allocated for rebates is going to last past about 2 or 3 hundred Volts. Plus, if memory serves, the 5K is for a pure BEV, and the Volt gets about half.

Real close, Noel, the Volt will get $3000, if it gets anything. But I have to agree with your pessimism.

I could give you a lot of facts, figures, assumptions, and calculations, but let me cut to the bottom line. I predict that the Volt and the Leaf will actually become available at about the same time, and that CARB will have a bit over $4M in the rebate fund at that time.

Volt buyers and Leaf buyers will be competing directly for that money. If Nissan should actually start pumping out 4000 Leafs/month while GM trickles out 500, the rebate might go to to the first 800 Leafs and the first 100 Volts.

The first 1000 Leafs will go to San Diego, and I figure the first 100 Volts will go to celebrities, so under that scenario the rest of us would be out of luck with either car unless we can hit the jackpot for FY2012.

I think GM people have to fix these issues and get at least monthly 30k sellable midsize sedan and similar small sedan ( may be cruze will be able to do this if executed correctly – still i think it will need a design update very soon after its introduction as the head lights seems a generation old style).

even on trucks i see GM is loosing ( Ford F-Series: 40,946 , Chevrolet Silverado: 29,618 ) . Time to act …
Long way to go GM ….

158

Itching4it Says

May 4th, 2010 (12:36 am)

Jim I:
OK, I figured out boldface . How about RED? No luck with that….

Well, I suppose you could try [font color=”red”]whatever[/font] where you use angle brackets instead of square brackets. Except that I just tried that here, and it didn’t work. My guess is that this website suppresses any attempt to use the HTML “font” tag. Probably a good restriction, because the “font” tag can create some real messes.

159

+1

Itching4it Says

May 4th, 2010 (1:03 am)

[Commenting on heat in California]

DonC:
It’s more a coast/inland issue than a North/South issue. Where I am in SoCal or in LA the average high in July is in the 70s. The average high in Davis in NoCal for the same period is in the 90s.

Very true on coast vs. inland, but if you think Davis is hot you should try Red Bluff, 120 miles further north (and with an average high in July of nearly 100).

160

Matthew B Says

May 4th, 2010 (1:23 am)

Itching4it: Very true on coast vs. inland, but if you think Davis is hot you should try Red Bluff, 120 miles further north (and with an average high in July of nearly 100).

My grandparents retired to Red Bluff. I remember more than one visit when I was a kid where the temperature was over 120F. Normally, when you feel a breeze you think it will feel better. There it just felt like opening an oven door.

161

Itching4it Says

May 4th, 2010 (1:50 am)

Tagamet:
It sure would be a lot easier if you’d just post the darn tag!!!

Oh, you mean like <b>this</b>?

(Next you’ll be asking how I managed to show that. Hee, hee.)

162

Itching4it Says

May 4th, 2010 (2:07 am)

James:
Primitive was my ‘69 Beetle with it’s cooling system: wind wings! And, of course, it’s radiant heating system, unforced warmth off the air-cooled flat four that took ten minutes to find it’s way through channeling into the cabin on cold Winter days. I remember traveling to work down the freeway with a gloved, frozen hand out the window scraping ice off the flat windshield, my breath freezing in mid-air! Now that’s primitive!

Ah, yes, that was the one with the little black lever down near the floor in the middle; the one you kicked with your toe when the engine started to die for lack of fuel. [We don’t need no stinking gas gauge.]

I remember it well.

163

jscott1000 Says

May 4th, 2010 (2:19 am)

Not too thrilled about the heat problem. Here in Houston it’s above 95 degrees for 6 months or so. I’m surprised NASAman didn’t realize this, but multi-layer insulation works fine on spacecraft where you have lots of transients and you are only hot for 45 minutes. It doesn’t work so good on Earth where you are baking in the hot sun all day. Insulation can slow down heat transfer, but it can’t stop it. If the Volt fails to perform in Hot or cold climate the car will be a failure.

164

stuey Says

May 4th, 2010 (4:35 am)

what does this mean for me? i live in the hottest contintent on earth…… Australia, i was working in a place called Scone in New South Wales last year in december and it was an unbearable 43 degrees CELSIUS at 9:30 at night!!! your thoughts peoples?

stuey australia

btw g`day tag

165

Dave K. Says

May 4th, 2010 (4:47 am)

stuey: what does this mean for me? i live in the hottest continent on earth…… Australia, i was working in a place called Scone in New South Wales last year in December and it was an unbearable 43 degrees CELSIUS at 9:30 at night!!! your thought peoples?stuey australia

GM engineering reports that the Volt will use a minimal amount of liquid fuel (ICE) to condition the battery to “normal” before running on pure battery power. A demo drive of a few months ago mentions “4 or 5 minutes”. The Volt can draw on wall outlet power to condition the battery as well. A very hot climate should be a minor inconvenience.

I am willing to take the extra time to park in a covered area when possible. And only when the outside temperature is above 85F degrees. As you are aware, the pre-production Volt was worked over in Death Valley. 100F is considered a cool day there.

=D-Volt

166

stuey Says

May 4th, 2010 (4:56 am)

dave k, thanks for taking the time to answer my post. also, your up early. lol

167

stuey Says

May 4th, 2010 (5:03 am)

oh by the way, Australia is one of the only countries to measure our temp in the shade!

in the sun at scone it was in excess of 55 degrees celsius or 131 degrees !!!!! no joke!

stuey: oh by the way, Australia is one of the only countries to measure our temp in the shade!in the sun at scone it was in excess of 55 degrees celsius or 131 degrees !!!!! no joke!43 degrees celsius at 9:30 at night in your measure is 109.4 degress F.how will the volt do here?? dave k any ideas?

Any car with less than a perfect cooling system will feel some pain in that heat. I’m sure radiator modification is big in that area.

=D-Volt

BTW:I work an inverted schedule. My day starts at 10PM and I love it. Enjoy playing golf and also coach Little League baseball.

169

stuey Says

May 4th, 2010 (5:32 am)

dave k, no radiator mods around here, i guess cars must be built to meet a different heat standard for our country. i myself drive a holden commodore, a four door sedan built here in oz with a version of your 3.8L Buick engine. (its now got over 290,000 Klms on the clock and is as good as the day i bought it!) i get over 900klms per 65 litre tank, im gonna try make it last me till around 2015, thats when i reckon i can get my hands on a voltec platform rear wheel drive four door sedan built buy GM holden and available in australia

If Henry had been this careful, we wouldn’t have gotten Model Ts until the 20s or 30s.

172

+1

Rashiid Amul Says

May 4th, 2010 (6:01 am)

Eco_Turbo: If the Volt fails to perform in Hot or cold climate the car will be a failure.There’s only one sure-fire way to see if Volt fails or not. Start selling them all over the place ASAP!

I’m thinking the Leaf will have the same problem, only worse.

173

Bradyb Says

May 4th, 2010 (9:27 am)

Bob is awesome.

174

Noel Park Says

May 4th, 2010 (10:33 am)

Itching4it: The first 1000 Leafs will go to San Diego, and I figure the first 100 Volts will go to celebrities, so under that scenario the rest of us would be out of luck with either car unless we can hit the jackpot for FY2012.

#156

Well maybe Ahhhnold and the Legislature will find some more money somewhere. You think?

Itching4it: Very true on coast vs. inland, but if you think Davis is hot you should try Red Bluff, 120 miles further north (and with an average high in July of nearly 100).

#159

True that, LOL! +1

I remember one summer we went from Lake Tahoe up the back roads to Mt. Lassen. Then we drove down to Red Bluff. When I got out of the car, I thought that someone had hit me with a baseball bat. 116 degrees! It looked so nice and green with the river running through, but hold your breath when you open the door!

Our youngest son was raised in San Pedro and went to school in Arcata and San Luis Obispo. When he graduated, he got a job in Sacramento. Talk about culture (climate?) shock. He’s gotten pretty acclimated to it though. He just bought a house in Davis.

Dave G: At $4/gallon, the Volt saves more than $5000 in fuel costs compared to a 50 MPG car…

Same old greenwashing.

At $3 per gallon and more than just 12,000 miles per year, the savings is quite a bit less.

178

Matthew_B Says

May 4th, 2010 (12:07 pm)

Noel Park: I remember one summer we went from Lake Tahoe up the back roads to Mt. Lassen.

That’s a beautiful drive. If anyone here has never done it, they should… all the way from the Volcanic ntl monument between K-falls & Lassen all the way down to Yosemite. There are not very many mountain ranges where someone can travel the long direction staying at high altitude. In most cases you end up sticking to the valleys and passes. That’s not the case for this drive, you stay up in the high altitude mountains the whole way.

179

Dan Petit Says

May 4th, 2010 (8:11 pm)

Dave K.:
Hope GMAC, ALLY, or some other form of financing can convert the State and Federal tax credits to instant rebates. This will be huge in this economic environment. Think The White House would consider 1.9% on the purchase of EV? They will get what they want. More EV on the road. And and source of income as well.Just as hundreds of small changes in aero add up to 40 miles electric on the Volt. Small changes in finance enabling will pay dividends for all involved.=D-Volt

That sure is helpful, Dave K.

Many more would be so much more closer to being able to get Volts (from the financial perspectives, because of the huge fuel savings if we do high annual miles and currently get only about 20.5 mpg, which I think is the national average).

Every tiny bit of help for the purchase logistics helps enormously! That is how close the affordability is.

Getting this all started up, in this very special case only, really I think, needs some extraordinary additional financial logistics methods and help from many parties.

If GM is going to get the ball rolling expeditiously, how about a warranted buyback (from someone if not GM) of the battery for when it is ten years old, yet have the buyback paid in advance as a grant?
Many have stated the reasons for residual battery value. Could we possibly count on that somehow, someway, in advance at time of purchase?

180

koz Says

May 4th, 2010 (10:02 pm)

DonC: The article says that they use a compressor and refrigerant to cool the cabin. They use a separate system to cool the pack. No mention of a compressor or refrigerant for this circuit, only a “chiller unit”. Without mention of a compressor I’d assume this is a simple heat exchanger aka air cooled process. I’ve never looked at a Tesla, but if that wasn’t the case, and if Tesla did use a compressor and refrigerant to cool the pack, why does the battery overheat on hot days? (Quote)

Never heard of Tesla’s battery overheating. They do (or did) circulate coolant constantly while the car is plugged in regardless of whether it is charging or not. The post that I linked was specifically about their HVAC system. The quote references the cabin cooling AC system and notes it us similar to conventional systems except for the extra loop to condition the battery. The speak specifically about the compressor and the associated coolant loops in the quote I provided and have again copied part of below. Prowler could give first hand experience. I think the conditioning is also discussed in their battery white paper.

“This uses a compressor similar to the one in a domestic fridge — only ours is blue and works off 400 volts. It’s at the front of the car, and pumps the refrigerant through the chiller unit in much the same way as a standard car’s system.

There is one added complication, though — we also have a requirement to keep the ESS cool. The ESS has its own coolant circuit, with a pump that circulates a water/glycol antifreeze mix round the ESS and then through a separate chiller unit to the right of the ESS behind the passenger door. This allows us to achieve cell temperatures within a range that supports long life and efficient performance.”