3rd Strike Frame Data

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0, to me, means it hits on the very next frame, meaning "zero" start up, it just happens. You can obviously block during the freeze, as being hit by a random super in 3S doesn't happen unless you're starting to jump, or pressed something.

1, means that there's build up, 1 frame passes after the freeze, before connecting. You cannot input parry after the freeze for Dud's SA3, but you can for Jinrai. Why does 3S let you starting blocking zero frame supers during the freeze, but not parry after it? Don't ask me, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

The thought of something being "zero" frames... that would just be ridiculous, random Seichuusens would be a thing then...

I have always known, via Ed Ma, that EX Uriens super is a 1 frame super. In that it hits on that very first frame.

Most supers freezes take around 50 frames before they'll actually connect. The vast majority of them take 6 frames, including the button press, before they lock the opponents movement and button inputs. EX Aegis, however, freezes almost everything as soon as both buttons are pressed, even erasing button inputs essentially. Although you can block/parry within those 6 frames, you cannot get a standard punch or kick to get inputted during that duration, unlike all other supers I've tested.

Results in SA2 coming out first, but it doesn't erase the input for EX Aegis, so Urien will be hit.

If you delay at all after DF, EX Aegis will always "win", so Gouki must block within the next 5 frames.

I tried this same setup with many different supers, the obvious ones, Shinsho, Boomerang etc. Switching sides/player as well just in case it would make a difference.... Gouki's SA2 is the only one I've found thus far that will out prioritize EX Aegis.. Doesn't matter which player Gouki is.

So technically, EX Aegis hits on frame 7, out-prioritizes virtually everything done on the same frame, but it is blockable after input.

Telesniper: Did you try Sean's Shoryu Cannon? That's supposed to have a ton of invincibility frames.

It seems Capcom made some random changes to SF3 between games.

The supers in the first two SF3 games are super fast, most of them are "0 frame" supers. But in Third Strike suddenly Urien has the only non-throw super with this property. I think this might have been unintentional.

Here's something extra: Ryu has a combo in Second Impact, dHP x HK Joudan. This doesn't work at all in New Generation or Third Strike. But in Third Strike it does work on Makoto only. I think either the game has been bugged and no one has known about it or Makoto has extra recovery frames against some hits. Also I think Dudley and Elena have the same problem as Makoto but only in New Generation, not in Second Impact.

Telesniper: Did you try Sean's Shoryu Cannon? That's supposed to have a ton of invincibility frames.

It seems Capcom made some random changes to SF3 between games.

The supers in the first two SF3 games are super fast, most of them are "0 frame" supers. But in Third Strike suddenly Urien has the only non-throw super with this property. I think this might have been unintentional.

I kinda got hung up on replicating exactly what I did with Gouki's SA2 when I did Sean's SA2, I now realize that isn't thorough, so I redid it...

I honestly can't tell you what went wrong with my initial tests, but from my (re)testing so far, it seems that when both players activate a super on the same exact frame, the super that comes out first isn't "random", it's actually on a 1 on, 1 off sort of mechanic... (even number frame v odd number frame..)

It seems like it's purely based on whether or not the super is activated on an even or odd numbered frame. But what I said still stands, if the super freeze that first occurs is for EX Aegis, it effectively erases the other players super input. If it's any other (sans Demon and Gigas plus one other...), EX Aegis will still come out immediately following the first freeze.

This brings me to my next WTF moment... If Urien does EX Aegis at specific times (frames depend on the even/odd weirdness) after Ibuki activates Yoroi Doushi, her SA2 will completely beat EX Aegis, as in, EX Aegis will still have it's super freeze, but the reflector won't come out! If you time it differently, it will come out, and hit Ibuki after her super. WTF

Here's something extra: Ryu has a combo in Second Impact, dHP x HK Joudan. This doesn't work at all in New Generation or Third Strike. But in Third Strike it does work on Makoto only. I think either the game has been bugged and no one has known about it or Makoto has extra recovery frames against some hits. Also I think Dudley and Elena have the same problem as Makoto but only in New Generation, not in Second Impact.

Makoto can also be hit by Ryu: st.Fwd->cr.Strong->RH Tatsu, tack on a jump in and you have a very beefy combo! (may have to walk a bit after the jump in when midscreen though..)

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I believe that Fierce->RH Joudan can combo both when your opponent is crouching and/or when you stun them with the Fierce (this doesn't unstun them, it combos "naturally")

I've been hit out of EX aegis before, I don't see what's so crazy about that.

Like I mentioned before, super freezes clean up inputs, I dont' know if they are deleted bu they are certainly cleaned up. Erroneous inputs may be dropped, sure, but I have been meatied out of ex aegis.

If it's on Makoto, she tends to have a few more frames of hit stun or a wider hurtbox than the rest of the cast. I recall Makoto being the only standing character that Dudley can combo st. rh xx ducking upper against.

yo telesniper more on that st fwd -> cr strong-> rh tatsu..any special inputs or situations..or just do dat ish?

Like pherai said, it's just a link that works on her. Most Ryu's will/should opt to do that on a stunned Makoto (especially when she's cornered), because that forces stand and makes the first jump in easier to time, also the link itself feels easier against a stunned Mak.. that's just my opinion though, no evidence. Midscreen, you can either hit a j.RH kinda early when you're right on top of Mak, or you can hit it a bit later and walk forward for a few frames before the st.Fwd.

Being hit out of EX Aegis isn't that uncommon, especially if it's done a little ways away from your opponent. However, having the EX reflector itself not come out, is something very uncommon when it's facing another super.

That is weird but explains a lot. It seems like a very strange way to code a fighting game. It reminds me, I think in all the years I've played Third Strike, I've seen supers activate at the same time only once. Usually it's one, then the other like you posted, even when done at the same time.

Very interesting discovery about Ibuki's grab super vs EX Aegis. You did mean the grab version right?

Hey, doesn't Oro's Oodama (big yellow super) continue its path even when the screen is paused for a super? I bet you could cause an EX Aegis failure with that too.

Forgot to mention that I believe that Fierce->RH Joudan can combo both when your opponent is crouching and/or when you stun them with the Fierce

Yeah, but that's only because all players have more recovery frames when hit into (not during) a dizzy or when hit while crouching unless the attack would have put a standing player into a "backturn" state.

Shoto dHP is great for canceling from though. Not unreliable like cHP and seems to give more stun frames to the enemy. Compare Gouki's cHP x LP Red Fireball with dHP x LP Red Fireball. Only the second will combo against a standing, undizzy target.

yo telesniper more on that st fwd -> cr strong-> rh tatsu..any special inputs or situations..or just do dat ish?

Like pherai said, it's just a link that works on her. Most Ryu's will/should opt to do that on a stunned Makoto (especially when she's cornered), because that forces stand and makes the first jump in easier to time, also the link itself feels easier against a stunned Mak.. that's just my opinion though, no evidence. Midscreen, you can either hit a j.RH kinda early when you're right on top of Mak, or you can hit it a bit later and walk forward for a few frames before the st.Fwd.

Being hit out of EX Aegis isn't that uncommon, especially if it's done a little ways away from your opponent. However, having the EX reflector itself not come out, is something very uncommon when it's facing another super.

I know what you're saying has some grand meaning, I'm almost certain of it, but knowing that not many supers are one frame I would think it's pretty straight forward to assume that aegis will generally be executed if any other super has start up not-yet-the-next-frame seeing as aegis is already projected out by the next frame and at the same time not tied to Urien's "body"(where a hit or trade would prevent the super). So if there were more 1 frame supers they couldn't possibly stuff Urien's simultaneously executed 1 frame super because they'd have to have already stuffed it for it to not come out. A meaty attack would definitely keep it from happening, even from up close because, technically, Urien was already hit.

Urien parrying a fireball super and then EX aegis-ing in the middle of it. Now that's something I would like to see. That's the kind of thing I used to look into in my FFA days and early tests of OE and ggpo. OE made it impossible, for me a would be arcade player, to do this with latency and lag. GGPO allows it, though.

That is weird but explains a lot. It seems like a very strange way to code a fighting game. It reminds me, I think in all the years I've played Third Strike, I've seen supers activate at the same time only once. Usually it's one, then the other like you posted, even when done at the same time.

Very interesting discovery about Ibuki's grab super vs EX Aegis. You did mean the grab version right?

Hey, doesn't Oro's Oodama (big yellow super) continue its path even when the screen is paused for a super? I bet you could cause an EX Aegis failure with that too.

Can you remember which supers were activated when they happened at the same time?

Yeah, the grab version. It's stated that Ibuki's SA2 is 0 frame, but it's only zero after the freeze, there's animation before the super, which is why I think it stuffs EX Aegis.

Forgot to mention that I believe that Fierce->RH Joudan can combo both when your opponent is crouching and/or when you stun them with the Fierce

Yeah, but that's only because all players have more recovery frames when hit into (not during) a dizzy or when hit while crouching unless the attack would have put a standing player into a "backturn" state.

Shoto dHP is great for canceling from though. Not unreliable like cHP and seems to give more stun frames to the enemy. Compare Gouki's cHP x LP Red Fireball with dHP x LP Red Fireball. Only the second will combo against a standing, undizzy target.

I knew the cause of it, was just confirming that Mak does remain in hitstun from cl.Fwd for at least 1 additional frame.

I did not know that about backturns! That's interesting = )

That could be attributed (I'm not certain) to the ability that cr.Fierce has that st.Fierce doesn't, cancelling it on its first hitting frame.

yo telesniper more on that st fwd -> cr strong-> rh tatsu..any special inputs or situations..or just do dat ish?

Like pherai said, it's just a link that works on her. Most Ryu's will/should opt to do that on a stunned Makoto (especially when she's cornered), because that forces stand and makes the first jump in easier to time, also the link itself feels easier against a stunned Mak.. that's just my opinion though, no evidence. Midscreen, you can either hit a j.RH kinda early when you're right on top of Mak, or you can hit it a bit later and walk forward for a few frames before the st.Fwd.

Being hit out of EX Aegis isn't that uncommon, especially if it's done a little ways away from your opponent. However, having the EX reflector itself not come out, is something very uncommon when it's facing another super.

I know what you're saying has some grand meaning, I'm almost certain of it

I was just pointing out something that I found interesting, nothing to take note of, it shouldn't matter gameplay wise, it just amused me is all.

strangely that Dud combo works on the twins standing too. no clue why.

I remember hearing that specifically cl.MK with ryu had better hit stun against Makoto standing, but I dunno. She's also the only character you can link Sean's TC into SA3.

Maybe because of the wider base on their hitboxs? I always wondered how Ken's TC->Fierce Shoryu->SA3 worked on just a few of the cast...

Another thing... does anybody know the normals that have different damage outputs depending on which frame they connect on? Only 1 comes to mind, Makoto's 9.Fierce. If you press it closer to the start of your jump, it can do 2 more dmg (OE based) than if you hit it kinda deep.

i'm still weirded out by the strange self cancelling of remy and ryu's far forwards.
specifically because esn's site lists ryu's far forward as having that. but not remy's but you can do the exact same thing with remy.

and the thing is it cancels into where that frame is used at the start of the normal.
in both cases when their upper leg is up, knee bent, before they extend their lower leg.

Another thing... does anybody know the normals that have different damage outputs depending on which frame they connect on? Only 1 comes to mind, Makoto's 9.Fierce. If you press it closer to the start of your jump, it can do 2 more dmg (OE based) than if you hit it kinda deep.

I had some misconceptions about Urien parrying cr jab, and landing cr fierce. so in this scenario, if the twins cr jab gets parried, Uriens low fierce does not hit. As far as I'm aware, their low jabs are the only exception.

Is it because the active frames are shorter for the twins and thats why low jab cannot be punished with cr fierce on parry? clearly their recovery is longer than the other characters.

Before dander comments, I'm aware that finding out the reasoning behind this is not practical. knowing why cr fierce as a punish for cr jab doesn't work on twins isn't as important as knowing the simple fact that it does not work. please stay out of the discussion on this topic I brought up. thanks.

Interesting.
So if they jab and then do nothing they're going to have remaining active + recovery + parry bonus.
Looking at active + recovery, the twins are the same as ken, total of 8 frames.

Maybe hitboxes somehow?

Also on the topic of normals with different qualities depending on when they connect.
Remy's close fierce. If you hit with it early/when the opponent is in front of remy they do the standard air recovery (flip back and land on feet)
if you hit them with it late/right above or even behind remy they go into knockdown state in the air though they can't be juggled (as far as i can tell with what i've tried) and land knocked down.

Hey guys, I've skimmed through this thread but 10 pages is quite a lot. I understand about frame data, there was something I was hoping one of you guys could help me out. Im interested in knowing if there is a resource about finding out which moves/super arts have invincibility frames, Or is it already within the frame data collection?

Do you think we could get some more clear uses for it by delegating a value to it? Kinda how we do start up, active, recovery. Or does it not fit into this model? I'm aware it would be cause for some overlap and so might be a bit too ambiguous for just anyone to be able to read effectively.

Do you think we could get some more clear uses for it by delegating a value to it? Kinda how we do start up, active, recovery. Or does it not fit into this model? I'm aware it would be cause for some overlap and so might be a bit too ambiguous for just anyone to be able to read effectively.

I don't think it needs its own category like startup, active, recovery or anything.
a note or icon to denote that it has some form of extreme priority (in the form of invincibility) would probably be useful to newer players trying to understand certain outcomes.

something i had noted in some of my info i'm working on. just been really slow due to life and my own other projects unfortunately :<
feel kind of bad about how slow i've been when i think of it now but it'll come around and i'll put up some fun/cool/useful stuff.

I don't think invincibility is that much important.
Also, if i add something about it, i think i must also add some other useful linked info about full or upper/lower invincibility (like Gouki HP srk) and throw invincibility.

I'm not making a motion for invincibility, I just think most people would find it useful. I for one don't think to look for invincibility frames when comparing data but have found myself searching for that info on a rare occasion, so I can't imagine that it would hurt. For instance, guy keeps getting hit on wake up by uppercut and can't find a way to beat it. He looks for info on its invincibility and finds info pertaining directly to his request. The way things are now, he'd have to know there isn't such a thing as invincibility, but rather invulnerability and only due to a lack of vulnerability and not invincibility as some form of greater qualification. But maybe I'm over-thinking things. If anything, it could help with concurrency issues and narrowing one's threats/options.

well if you want to be more specific, no one in the game is invincible ever.

everyone is just invulnerable to some extent. since everyone can lose a round which is more what invincible means... but i get what you meant and yeah basically. he isnt much vulnerable in shippu

ryu's ex srk is fully invulnerable through startup into the start of the move hitting. ken is never actually invulnerable during shippu. just the move has a massive hitbox and his hurtbox is very far away from it making it almost have invulnerability. however if ryu did ex srk as ken did shippu, as long as ryu is up close to ken ryu should win afaik.

I believe it completely. Shippu has such a fat area that hits and ryu's srk has a tiny box. so as long as ken isnt right on top of ryu (why would he be if hes gonna use shippu) ryu's ex srk should be eaten up.

I tried testing out this shippu vs ex srk business in fba-rr, and I couldn't find a way to make ryu win. I made it so that ryu's got an active frame at the same time that ken's vulnerability starts back up.

This is ryu's first active frame, which doesn't hit because ken is invulnerable.

This is Ken's first active frame.

I assume they don't trade because supers have more priority than special moves. It also looks like supers ignore invulnerability by being able to hit pushboxes.

It's also worth mentioning that the fba-rr script that draws hitboxes lags behind a frame, which is why it looks like ryu is getting hit at the same time he has an active frame.

i cant imagine it can hit pushbox, its got to be the super > special thing.
cool though, that would explain it. i just always assumed it wouldn't work because of the required timing and spacing but super > special priority makes it clear.

That is strange that you couldn't figure out when Ryu can strike. It is a tricky super and I have, maybe once, got Ken on a Power Bomb from Alex. I started the move on Ken before he started the super so when he activated super, hands were well out and ready to reel him in

I guess I should clear that up. I know some people use "priority" to describe the startup of a move or its number of active frames or whatever. I'm talking about the priority system for the types of hitboxes coded in the game - what happens when the active frames of two moves intersect.

I guess I should clear that up. I know some people use "priority" to describe the startup of a move or its number of active frames or whatever. I'm talking about the priority system for the types of hitboxes coded in the game - what happens when the active frames of two moves intersect.

They trade. Supers have no hurtbox in many cases and thus the seemingly invincible state but if there are two hit boxes one for each character and each of those hitboxes overlaps with a hitbox, they will trade.

Found this draft recorded for this topic (didn't know forum allowed one draft per topic), don't know why i didn't posted it at the time. It was about Isotopez find about SA3 being able to hit pushbox, and i was answering to Tebbo post i guess:

i cant imagine it can hit pushbox, its got to be the super > special thing.
cool though, that would explain it. i just always assumed it wouldn't work because of the required timing and spacing but super > special priority makes it clear.

Actually, seems it does work with pushbox acting like regular hitbox.
Tested it with SA3 vs ex SRK (both ken):
- if SA3 doesn't overlap pushbox (is too far), then nothing happen even when active hitbox is over srk active hitbox (quite normal)
- if SA3 does overlap it (even from 1 pixel), then it hits even though ther's supposedly nothing to hit (except pushbox and active HB)

They trade. Supers have no hurtbox in many cases and thus the seemingly invincible state but if there are two hit boxes one for each character and each of those hitboxes overlaps with a hitbox, they will trade.

There is no trade. The ex srk overlaps with Ken, but Ken does not get hit by it. The first hit of shippu overlaps with Ryu, and he does get hit by it. The same thing happens with throws as long as the super has a throwable hitbox, which shippu does, but instead of shippu winning, throw wins.

Crazy that shippu can hit pushboxes.
I wonder if that is common or uncommon.

I've only tested genei jin, shippu, corkscrew blow, and tanden renki. I know from experience that activation supers like tengu stone and denjin hit pushboxes. Tanden renki doesn't seem to give makoto's normals super priority though. I assume the general rule is that supers can hit pushboxes, with a few exceptions, like tanden renki and grab supers.