Okay not to beat a dead horse, but I am seeing a lot of postings about vanilla relationships and “turning someone who is ‘vanilla’” and this notion that you either are ‘kinky’ or not. I have to admit that I am perplexed a little. I am throwing this out here, not to start WWIII or anything but to honestly get other people’s perspectives. Do you really think that it is possible for someone to change or to discover BDSM at a late stage in his/her life? Or do you think it is innate and you either are or are not this way?

I ask because I feel that I did change. Had you had asked me 15 years ago if I would ever engage in even the slightest of BDSM practices, I would have told you “Hell No!!” and meant it. It held no allure for me whatsoever. And yet I have discovered in the past year or so a growing need to incorporate it into my relationship. I have found at times the need for some pain and I think it has a lot to do with changes that have happened in my life. I recognize that on the spectrum of BDSM I am probably on the low end and perhaps not as adventurous as most, but I guess my point is that it is a completely new dynamic for me.

So again, the question to explore is can someone honestly change from Vanilla sex to BDSM sex? Or is it something that is innate and can only be brought to the surface?

__________________The heart is an unreliable narrator.

Before you PM, introduce yourself. You can find me here... Mama Blu's
And for those especially daring folks... you can show off your hands here

I did too, sort of. For one thing, I had no idea I was PYL (Top, and if committed, Dom) till I actually went out and played. Before that, I'm sure I was vanilla. But I guess I was really lucky: I met someone who was really submissive *and* into the scene, and willing to be patient and watch what would happen. Before long, I was attending rope classes and spanking like a pro

But I think the issue here is that someone led the proverbial horse to water, *and* it drank. How does that saying go? You can lead a horse to water, but can't necessarily make it drink? Well, if I was the horse, I got thirsty. I was led to water, and it all fit in. So I don't know if I was "turned." Perhaps my little sub at that point employed a Socratic method of extraction, and I deduced a square.

I did too, sort of. For one thing, I had no idea I was PYL (Top, and if committed, Dom) till I actually went out and played. Before that, I'm sure I was vanilla. But I guess I was really lucky: I met someone who was really submissive *and* into the scene, and willing to be patient and watch what would happen. Before long, I was attending rope classes and spanking like a pro

But I think the issue here is that someone led the proverbial horse to water, *and* it drank. How does that saying go? You can lead a horse to water, but can't necessarily make it drink? Well, if I was the horse, I got thirsty. I was led to water, and it all fit in. So I don't know if I was "turned." Perhaps my little sub at that point employed a Socratic method of extraction, and I deduced a square.

This is tricky ground

Thanks Quimsical.

It is tricky ground. Because for me, no one led me to it. It was a spur of the moment thing done one night for a fleeting moment. Trying not to be too graphic but it was just one slap on the ass.

But suddenly I was much more aware of what was going on, And the only thing I can think to explain my 'conversion' is that after having kids I find that I cannot fully relax, even while having sex. There is always that part of my brain that is attuned to being ever vigilant, listening for them. But something about the sharp pain focuses me. It doesn't happen all the time, but even hubby has found that on those occasions when I just can't relax or let go the trick is employ a bit of pain.

Before kids, any hint of dominance or roughness would have had me putting a stop to intimate activities. But now it heightens my senses, increases my pleasure and possibly takes me out of "mother" mode. Does that even make sense?

So I find myself grappling with this idea of what changed? Did I? And I find myself asking the question more and more as I read posts where people debate the topic. So I thought I would devote a thread to the idea and see what everyone has to say.

__________________The heart is an unreliable narrator.

Before you PM, introduce yourself. You can find me here... Mama Blu's
And for those especially daring folks... you can show off your hands here

Yes, it is totally possible to discover BDSM late in life. We are humans, after all, and shit changes up on us all the time.

But at the same time, I hear stuff like this so often;

"I always played doctor and nurse when I was a kid. I was the one that gave the shots. I would jab with a sharpened stick."

Or
"I used to wrap my jumprope around myself and pretend I was a captured Indian Maiden."

Or-- something.

There are people who have been very happy exploring vanilla sex-- which is a lot of fun to explore, let's face it-- especially when you're young and people want you as much as you want them. Many of us come to BDSM in middle age, when the fun of boinking has finally settled to a dull roar.

__________________"Oh woe, these be perilous times! Children no longer obey their elders, and everybody is writing a book!"--Pliny the Elder, AD76

Yes, people change all the time. It's part of learning things about yourself and others.

Yes, you absolutely can develop an interest in BDSM later in life, and for as many different reasons as there are people.

What I don't think can happen is someone 'converting' a vanilla person into a person who likes BDSM.

Sure, you can introduce a person to it, and they might take to it with great enthusiasm, but they weren't 'converted'.

If someone had tried to 'convert' you when you were younger and in your "Hell No!!" period, would you have let them? I doubt it.

You have to enjoy it and want it yourself, no-one can make you do that.

Yeah I see exactly what you mean and you're right in that even 5 years ago I would have actively fought anyone who even tried to get rough with me.

I think for me it comes down to those words 'converting' and 'conversion'. As you can see I tend to get bogged down in language.

But I do struggle a bit because I look at my husband and realize that he has changed his behavior in large part to help me. I don't think I am 'converting' him, although I do think he is enjoying what we are exploring. He is exploring different aspects of himself and we are both running up against our own boundaries which I like to think is a good thing. But are we converting? Or simply allowing something that was within rise to the surface?

I admit I am unsure.

__________________The heart is an unreliable narrator.

Before you PM, introduce yourself. You can find me here... Mama Blu's
And for those especially daring folks... you can show off your hands here

Change is what we do. You aren't "converting" each other. HUmans can be incredibly adaptable, incredibly changeable. Not all of us, there are always outliers-- but it's huge on that bellcurve.

"conversion" keeps coming up during the silly seasons here.

It is a silly thing isn't it. You definitely made me think with your earlier post about coming to in middle age. I feel so out of tune. I see people here who are so much younger than I and yet they are so in touch with this experience while I am still trying to find my way. I leaves me feeling a bit... I don't know, out of step? Like perhaps I am wrong.

But then again you are right. Who I am now, is not who I was 15 or 10 or hell even 2 years ago. Dramatic things have happened in my life that have changed me on a fundamental level. Perhaps this is simply one of them, yes?

__________________The heart is an unreliable narrator.

Before you PM, introduce yourself. You can find me here... Mama Blu's
And for those especially daring folks... you can show off your hands here

Okay not to beat a dead horse, but I am seeing a lot of postings about vanilla relationships and “turning someone who is ‘vanilla’” and this notion that you either are ‘kinky’ or not. I have to admit that I am perplexed a little. I am throwing this out here, not to start WWIII or anything but to honestly get other people’s perspectives. Do you really think that it is possible for someone to change or to discover BDSM at a late stage in his/her life? Or do you think it is innate and you either are or are not this way?

I ask because I feel that I did change. Had you had asked me 15 years ago if I would ever engage in even the slightest of BDSM practices, I would have told you “Hell No!!” and meant it. It held no allure for me whatsoever. And yet I have discovered in the past year or so a growing need to incorporate it into my relationship. I have found at times the need for some pain and I think it has a lot to do with changes that have happened in my life. I recognize that on the spectrum of BDSM I am probably on the low end and perhaps not as adventurous as most, but I guess my point is that it is a completely new dynamic for me.

So again, the question to explore is can someone honestly change from Vanilla sex to BDSM sex? Or is it something that is innate and can only be brought to the surface?

Life is full of change. When I was in my 20s, I said I'd never do some things and within 10 years I was doing them. Foods I hated at one time, eventually I developed a taste for. As for the BDSM sexual urge, I still think you have it in you or you don't. Oh, you might not know you have it until some time when something triggers that first urge for pain or bondage. Maybe it's a scene in a movie, or maybe it's a relationship that ventures into rough sex after drinks one night.

That little trigger, whatever it is, starts that thought process in motion. It's a slow burn in some people and in others it can be white hot. There's even a few in-between. Everybody is different. There's as many stories as there are people to tell them.

But you don't "change" like it seems. You either stir something within you yourself, or through some other type of connection with others. It was there all along, waiting...

But, just as some people have it inside them to eventually be triggered, others just don't. The same thing that might trigger your inner desires is just another day for them. That's just how it is.

__________________DVS

Electroplay is a shocking experience! My humor can be, too!
But my posts are all totally PC!! Well, kinda sorta

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill,
That we shall pay any price, bear any burden,
Meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe,
To assure the survival and success of liberty. -- John F. Kennedy

The answer is yes because we humans learn new things and change our behavior with time. One can learn new things over time and this is so true.

I had a friend who was top and later he became versatile(both top and bottom). Everything depends on desire and sexual partners(friends etc).

I like to say-- bottoms top when they learn how, tops bottom whenever they get the chance.

(before anyone gets pissy about that, let me explain the joke which is that people who label themselves tops mostly have a very hard time finding anyone they feel they can bottom for, on the rare occasions they want to)

__________________"Oh woe, these be perilous times! Children no longer obey their elders, and everybody is writing a book!"--Pliny the Elder, AD76

.... So again, the question to explore is can someone honestly change from Vanilla sex to BDSM sex? Or is it something that is innate and can only be brought to the surface?

I think that a certain percentage of people have the hard-wiring for BDSM in their makeup, whether they find it or not. Another percentage do not have that hard-wiring, and even if they play or experiment with it - say as a result of reading "50 Shades" or Anne Rice's "Beauty" series - it will not end up being a part of their lives forever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quimsical

.... You can lead a horse to water, but can't necessarily make it drink? Well, if I was the horse, I got thirsty....

Yup. The hard-wiring I mention above would be "thirst." Some people might never *realize* that they're thirsty, others would know it almost from their first conscious thought, and others only discover their thirst when someone shoves a glass of ice water in their face. And some people would never experience thirst at all, because their camel humps are filled with other stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by knot_sweet

Yes, people change all the time. It's part of learning things about yourself and others.

Yes, you absolutely can develop an interest in BDSM later in life, and for as many different reasons as there are people.

What I don't think can happen is someone 'converting' a vanilla person into a person who likes BDSM.

Sure, you can introduce a person to it, and they might take to it with great enthusiasm, but they weren't 'converted'....

My opinion (YMMV) is that people may change their behaviors within the parameters that are built into them at birth (or first cognition). I don't believe that those parameters are mutable. Hetero-, homo-, bi-, a- sexual... vanilla, peppermint, BDSM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

Yes, it is totally possible to discover BDSM late in life. We are humans, after all, and shit changes up on us all the time. .... Many of us come to BDSM in middle age, when the fun of boinking has finally settled to a dull roar.

Thank you for that last sentence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blulilacgrl

....I think for me it comes down to those words 'converting' and 'conversion'....

But I do struggle a bit because I look at my husband and realize that he has changed his behavior in large part to help me. I don't think I am 'converting' him, although I do think he is enjoying what we are exploring. He is exploring different aspects of himself and we are both running up against our own boundaries which I like to think is a good thing. But are we converting? Or simply allowing something that was within rise to the surface?

I admit I am unsure.

So he's changed his behavior. So did you. Converting him? Nah. Introducing him to something he hadn't thought (much) about before? Could be. As long as he's enjoying it, he's probably going to be willing to keep exploring it. Again, though, I think you both had greater or lesser degrees of the "BDSM gene" in you, and once it was triggered, you've (plural) decided to check it out, enjoy it in your own ways. IMNSHO, that's a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

Change is what we do. You aren't "converting" each other. HUmans can be incredibly adaptable, incredibly changeable. Not all of us, there are always outliers-- but it's huge on that bellcurve.

"conversion" keeps coming up during the silly seasons here.

No wonder I like your prickly self.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVS

.... As for the BDSM sexual urge, I still think you have it in you or you don't. Oh, you might not know you have it until some time when something triggers that first urge for pain or bondage.... That little trigger, whatever it is, starts that thought process in motion.

.... Everybody is different. There's as many stories as there are people to tell them.

But you don't "change" like it seems. You either stir something within you yourself, or through some other type of connection with others. It was there all along, waiting...

But, just as some people have it inside them to eventually be triggered, others just don't. The same thing that might trigger your inner desires is just another day for them. That's just how it is.

Yes, everyone is different. We each have our unique individual makeups, just like everybody else , and sometimes we aren't even aware of parts of that makeup, unless they happen to have their button pushed on just the right day, as yours seems to have been pushed the day you got that smack on the ass. We might not even *miss* experiencing that part of our makeup if the button never gets pushed... but we certainly seem to enjoy the hell out of it if it does!

In the long run, my feeling is that we should enjoy our lives and our makeups to our fullest capability, and feel no guilt if *our* pleasures aren't exactly the same as our mothers', fathers', brothers', sisters', aunts' and uncles' pleasures. If we all felt, thought, and enjoyed the same things, what a boring fucking world this would be. I think I'd just go out and shoot myself if that were true... except that then I'd be thinking and enjoying the same things as everyone else and wouldn't know how miserable my life actually was. Conundrum/paradox?

__________________4/19/2014: Please forgive typos and other errors caused by only being able to type with one hand now. I *do* proofread, but may miss an error here or there. If/when I do, I apologize.

Legal Notice and Attorney's CYA Requirements: The author of this post is not an attorney, physician, or marital or sexual therapist or counselor (nor does he play any or all of the above on television). All opinions are offered only as the viewpoint(s) of an individual with a certain amount of life experience, and should not be considered to be legal, medical, or therapeutic/counseling advice.

When it comes to issues of sexuality it is complex, there are layers upon layers there, and it can be hard to tell what the 'truth' is about things at times. I think change often is more about coming out what is within us then a fundamental shift in who we are, more about clearing away who we aren't and finding what we were.

With BD/SM it is complex because there is so much crap out there about it, it is a taboo that is preached and ranted about, something 'done by freaks' , not by 'nice people', and that turns a lot of people off from even trying it. Things have changed a lot in the past 30 years or so, it is a lot easier today, and that freedom can allow people to actually try things and find they like it/enjoy it.

I think there are people who are vanilla who if they tried bd/sm would love it, I think there are those who would yawn and say pass me my vibrator, and that is fine, it is part of human diversity. Part of my problem with the bozo so proudly proclaiming he 'converts' vanillas is the idea that he has the right to do that or a need to; if someone is happy with vanilla sex, why would they need 'conversion'? It implies somehow someone for what they are is wrong, it is just as bad as the Christian cuckoos with conversion therapy, or worse, claiming that gays and lesbians want to 'convert' kids......

It can also be confusing because you get into the question of what bd/sm is. If a vanilla couple once in a while does some kinky light play, like the wife ties up hubby and teases him, are they into bd/sm? If they ocassionally do spanking or something, is that bd/sm even thought they otherwise are 100% vanilla?

My take on it is that the level of BD/SM play you are into, or not, is part of you and is always there, but that doesn't mean we always know it is there, there are whole levels of things that allow it to be buried. when my spouse and I were first experimenting with it, our child was young, and she would often freak out at the thought of being a young mother doing those 'horrible' things......but of course it is context, the loving mother can also be a fierce domme, too. The level we play at can change, when I started many years ago in pro play I was 'light stuff only", over time that grew. Someone who once did it in a bedroom might find themselves wanting to do something more lifestyle (D/s), it happens all the time, and that is cool. On the other hand, I would find it revolting is some self appointed expert went on a quest to 'convert' someone to a D/s, rather then letting them find that for themselves, there is a big difference, among other things, conversion implies a type of non con sensuality.

Like, honestly. Not to keep a partner, not to keep a job, but to really enjoy it like it's the only thing you ever wanted.

I'm going to venture pretty close to never.

So, no. People can discover options that they hadn't considered for cultural reasons or personal history reasons, or lack of opportunity. My behavior was vanilla and hetero till I was 23 years old. I was not.

If you want it, it's part of your possible repertoire. If you're really vanilla, then none of this "vanilla swirl" whatever - you're not going to want it.

You can break down bisexuality, for example, a million ways, but if you have a same-sex experience and didn't hate it, guess what...

__________________If I had my way we'd sleep every night all wrapped around each other like hibernating rattlesnakes.

I like to think that kinkiness is something that's in someone from the very beginning. They may not realise it, and it may be brought out suddenly by a particular experience (which would then seem, of course, like a stunning transformation)... but I do think there's always at least *something* there from the start.

I knew there was a reason I felt safe and comfortable posting this question here.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer me.

Stella & Sir Winston, again you make incredibly insightful posts that I read and simply think "Why the hell didn't I think of that?" There is a reason you two are so intimidating. [laughs]
These statements really make me kind of hang my head and think "Doh"

Stella ~ "Sexuality is not a competition."
Sir Winston ~ "enjoy it in your own ways."

I tend to be a perfectionist and forget that there is no right or wrong way. Just our way. Thank you for reminding me.

njlauren~ this

"conversion implies a type of non con sensuality"
This stopped me and made me think. I now see exactly why I was having such trouble with the word. You're right. Conversion/converting when viewed in that way is at odds with the simple idea of change and growth. Thank you.

DVS, Netzach & Klayton~ again I see where the concept of it being there to begin with, the idea of it being innate, is appropriate. And truthfully as I looked back over the years in an objective fashion, I realized that I have always had a submissive bent in the bedroom. I have always been a pleaser and happy to cede control to my husband. The pain aspect is a new twist and one that is becoming more integral at times I think due to changes within my now Mommy brain, but yeah I guess I can see the "seed" as it were.

which I goes to mytorontoescort's point of "chang[ing] our behavior with time". Although I would quantify that with the point that it I don't think it has changed my behavior so much as my needs. As I said before, it has come to a point now where pain is sometimes necessary to get me out of my constantly whirring, ten thousand things going, Mommy brain and into that space where I am focusing on pleasure and connecting with my husband.

__________________The heart is an unreliable narrator.

Before you PM, introduce yourself. You can find me here... Mama Blu's
And for those especially daring folks... you can show off your hands here

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill,
That we shall pay any price, bear any burden,
Meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe,
To assure the survival and success of liberty. -- John F. Kennedy

One of the keys to this is realizing that it doesn't really matter, that if you experience something and enjoy it the roots don't matter. I would have a hard time looking at my spouse's background and to be able to tell you she was naturally dominant, had fantasized about things, most other people would tell you the opposite about her...maybe it is situational, I don't know, because I was sub it allowed that to come out in her? Doesn't really matter, the results are what counts

I see nothing wrong with introducing people to new things, it is how I suspect a lot of us got into this, it is where change comes in, but change is usually guided by what is in a person to start with. People change all the time in their lives, and it is one of the things I think that keep us young (god, I scare myself sometimes when I hear my self talking and my son making faces, when I start sounding like my parents I know I have to use a cattle prod on myself to get myself back on the right path....

I'm sure the posts before mine have answered your question perfectly, but I thought I'd add my two cents of experience.

I've always known I've been a submissive. For me it's an innate, natural thing that is as part of me as any other part of my personality. I yearn to be controlled, safe, in any kind of bedroom experience.

My partner hadn't had much experience in the bedroom when we first became a couple. I didn't find it a necessity to bring up at first as we just explored each other's bodies, got used to each other; but months later I finally decided that I would casually bring up the fact I'm craving something a bit different from some of our time spent between the sheets.

Now, my partner is pretty vanilla. That's no bad thing by the way - he has taught me a lot about sex just by being himself, and us 'experimenting' with what he wants to do. I actually love that we're quite opposite with this. However, he has included aspects of dominating in the last few weeks and it's been perfect. He enjoyed it too, so I think it will become a regular thing; that every so often my inner slut gets pleased just as much as my lovey-dovey side.

However, he's not a 'dom', and never will be. He goes through the motions of some things; spanking, rough sex, commands - but it's in his style (and god, is that sexy) but I also understand he enjoys it in a totally different way than a dom would. So although he's discovered he likes aspects of dominating, it has not made him innately attracted to dominating as a whole, or even made him closer to what people think is a true 'dom'. I read a post elsewhere on Lit yesterday that I agreed with totally: The poster said that although they had great, kinky sex with their partner and that they both enjoyed it, they knew their partner enjoyed it differently from them, since they were innately much more vanilla.

It's a strange thing to describe I guess, but that's my experience with someone discovering they like some BDSM elements later on in life after being pretty much 100% vanilla. As with everything, I think there can be exceptions; but as someone else mentioned, I don't think "conversions" can happen. I think the desires are always there with someone who likes certain kinks, it just depends on how strong or how repressed those desires are. Sometimes it takes different experiences for someone to realise they like it. (with someone they trust, or maybe just feeling safe in general) It also means not everyone has them. My partner, in his work and some of his hobbies (we're both nerds and run a gaming community in our free time ) enjoys control and leadership, so the aspects of liking that in the bedroom were always there. It was a small step (for him at least) to take liking getting his own way in other things, to liking getting his own way during sex.

Wow, there is so much great insight here! For me, I have always had submissive woman inside me trying to get out, but as a feminist I had tried to repress it. I finally reached a place where I have accepted it and I know my life is incomplete without it. So as Netzach asked, no I could never go back, or "convert" to vanilla.

That is of course just me, I don't think there are many absolutes in human behavior, but IMHO most people are born one way or another. I wonder how many people supress or deny their kinky impulses for their whole lives.