Sorry if that seems like a dumb question, but I'm intrigued by Keith Moon's style of drumming. Someone remarked recently when I was playing particularly 'over the top' that I played like him... But I wasn't intending trashing my kit, so not too sure what they meant unless it was that I was being very flamboyant with my arm movements.

In many films and videos his arms seem to be flailing about (sometimes it's hard to tell how he's playing), and he looks as if he's all over the place rhythmically, however the drum recordings seem quite tight. Did he play flamboyantly and differently on stage than when recording? Were his beats tight live?

It looks like he was a self-taught drummer from the way he plays, is that right or did he have 'formal' training or lessons. Was he just living up to his 'crazy man' image when he played and wanting to be the centre of attention, which I believe he always wanted to be?

I would appreciate any comments from those that have saw him play, rather than being pointed to youtube videos, most of which I've watched.

To me, Moons drumming is typified by:
- rare use of hihats
- not the principal time keeper of the band ....at all (that was Pete)
- constant fills and frequent crash riding
- never play the same lick twice, or at least identical
- true reckless abandon

again, studio recordings are often many takes and so were more tame versions of what the song required for drumming. I'm sure that was the case in the Who, who had a fairly exacting leader in the studio (Townsend).

I think some of his best drumming parts show up on many numbers in the Odds and Sods collection and Quadrophenia

I never saw Keith play ...but have studied him extensively .... (extensively may actually be an understatement) .....and have interviewed family members, band mates, and friends of his for a 3 year long project I constructed in college that never truly was finished completely ....nor was college actually :)

and what I came up with is that Keith was not a drummer at all....he was a true force of nature that just happened to have a drum kit in front of him on occasion.....a comet.....one never meant to age and become old

outside of the Who he did not care to even see a drum kit ....much more concerned with fame and running with the whos who crowd, raising hell and buying pointless items like hover crafts and exotic cars that he could not drive

I believe the accidental killing of his friend Neil Boland changed Keith forever and escalated the already evident downward spiral

he had a few instructors as a child but did not care much for lessons ....and once attempted a lesson with Philly Joe Jones ....which is a quite funny story for another day

Pete describes Keith as a one man orchestra ....and if you watch videos and listen you can hear how he does approach some situations as a timpani player would with impeccable dynamics ...
he also followed the vocal and the guitar more than the Ox pretty much always

Keith almost never played a tune the same way twice ....and I may feel safe even saying he never did.....

as you probably know he gave up on having a hi hat pretty early in his career but it was suggested by Glynn Johns while trying to harness some of Keiths insanity for some of Petes tunes that required synth and sequencers when producing some records that he return to the hi hat....which he did briefly

Glyn did manage to get some solid takes out of Keith ...but to me they don't sound very Moon like and are definitely not how he would have expressed himself

for someone with very poor technique Keith had amazingly fast hands.

live he was pretty much off the hook and to him it was the Keith Moon show not the Who.....

Keith would often latch on to certain people he met and take them on a 6 month to a year journey that they would never forget.

in a recent Eagles documentary Joe Walsh says.....one of the worst things that has ever happened to me in my life was Keith Moon taking a liking to me..

pretty funny

I love anything and everything Keith and am pretty much an encyclopedia of Moon.
I am just fascinated by it all and spent years studying his life and tracking down everyone I could who knew him to talk to them
I got very much enjoyment out of every minute of it and am very glad I did it

I plan to write a book one day .....just way too busy right now

a personal favorite representation of his playing is Live At Leeds....and their performance at the Rolling Stones Rock n Roll Circus TV program which the Stones never allowed to be released until the 90s because the Who blew them out of the water

Keith had amazing pair of wrists. He didn't use fingers, he had no technique, but some how his wrists were always fluid, and he could pull things off with just wrists that most trained drummers would use a combination of fingers and wrists to do.

Tight is hardly a word I'd use with Keith, but oddly, he was one of the first (if not THE first) guy to play to a click track and sequencer on stage, and he had no issues staying in time with the sequencer.

One under-rated aspect of Keith is his use of dynamics. My personal story is while Neil Peart had gotten my interested in drums, it was listening to how Keith controlled the dynamics in the The Who on Live at Leeds that made me commit my life to drums. Keith could actually play quietly, and build tension, and build, and play very intensely quietly and then just explode like an atomic bomb behind the kit. Even though Keith is more known for always being over the top and out of control, on stage, he had his own internal volume knob.

I saw a video once where moon broke a right bass drum head. He had the stage hands change the right head while he continued to play. It appeared that Moon was playing the left bass drum like a hi-hat playing eight notes. I heard that Moon would lead with his left foot think this is what they meant.. As others have mentioned he did not use a lot of hi-hat.

When I look at the videos of that premier kit that he played, the over-head toms appear to be the same size. When I listen to Moon, I can not hear the toms being tuned to differently. I hear different floor toms but not different overhead toms.

It is hard for me to hear any buzz, double stroke, or triple stroke rolls from Moon. He seems to be playing a lot of rhythmic fills without the use of the cymbals.

Because Moon did not play the hi-hat, he used his ride a lot, but he also used a lot of the crash cymbal as a ride. He crashed the cymbals more often than other drummers. Drummers would open and close their hi-hat slightly to add color, but since Moon was riding more often, he needed to accent and add color so he would use the crash cymbals to add color and phrasing.

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I am not here just to keep the beat; I add color, timbre, and presence.

Moonie was a classic crazy garage drummer. His approach was typical 70s noob - seemingly oblivious to the link between drummer and bassist and playing along with the lead lines of the song (which is what laypersons listen to) and keen to show off at every opportunity.

There have been many like him (until taught that it's not the proper role to play drums in a group), just that Keith did it so much better through sheer natural talent and the good fortune of finding the right band for him. His hands and mental processes were very fast.

I saw a video once where moon broke a right bass drum head. He had the stage hands change the right head while he continued to play. It appeared that Moon was playing the left bass drum like a hi-hat playing eight notes. I heard that Moon would lead with his left foot think this is what they meant.. As others have mentioned he did not use a lot of hi-hat.

When I look at the videos of that premier kit that he played, the over-head toms appear to be the same size. When I listen to Moon, I can not hear the toms being tuned to differently. I hear different floor toms but not different overhead toms.

It is hard for me to hear any buzz, double stroke, or triple stroke rolls from Moon. He seems to be playing a lot of rhythmic fills without the use of the cymbals.

Because Moon did not play the hi-hat, he used his ride a lot, but he also used a lot of the crash cymbal as a ride. He crashed the cymbals more often than other drummers. Drummers would open and close their hi-hat slightly to add color, but since Moon was riding more often, he needed to accent and add color so he would use the crash cymbals to add color and phrasing.

a couple things

yes his mounted toms were commonly all the same sizes which is not uncommon for 60s drum kits at all ......this happened until the mid to late 70s when he started to layer concert toms ....and even then some of them were the same size

for example ...the pictures of Lilly kit had three 14x8 mounted toms tuned higher to lower from left to right , two 16X18 floor toms and one 16x16 floor tom which was commonly used as a drink holder.... ( this floor tom sat at the rock walk at GC on Sunset in hollywood for a long time next to Keiths gold Premier kit )

as for the cymbals......back then manufacturers weren't really labeling cymbals or differentiating much between "crash" and "ride"...they were just cymbals of different weights and diameters ...of which Keith generally played one 20" and two 18" of various manufacturers .. often Paiste with a Zildjian mixed in periodically

and yes Keith commonly pumped 8th noted on the bass drum that would play simultaneously with his right hand that was usually constantly switching cymbals ......and often live if his right foot was playing a pattern his left foot would be pumping 8ths as if it were on a hi hat

he also commonly played a single stroke four pattern on his feet in the middle of measures or every other measure

not sure I have ever heard the term "overhead tom"....but I know what you mean

I'm another avid Moonologist. If there was ever a trivia contest solely about Keith Moon, I'd win it, probably.

Keith Moon is actually a great drummer to use as model for your own playing. I can play "Moonish" enough to astound in the right setting, and having that in my arsenal has been most advantageous over the years. Don't be put off by the seeming randomness of his playing; there's much there to learn from.

I'm another avid Moonologist. If there was ever a trivia contest solely about Keith Moon, I'd win it, probably.

Keith Moon is actually a great drummer to use as model for your own playing. I can play "Moonish" enough to astound in the right setting, and having that in my arsenal has been most advantageous over the years. Don't be put off by the seeming randomness of his playing; there's much there to learn from.

completely agree J

there may not have been much method to his madness ....but there sure were some absolutely beautiful things happening

just a natural fury of everything from thunderous flurries to delicate , almost orchestral touches

There have been many like him (until taught that it's not the proper role to play drums in a group).

Yeah, they certainly musn't stay that way. I can't think of anyone remotely like him. Can't even think of anyone attempting to copy or emulate him.......he seems to stand alone in that sense. One of very few players so unique that there precious little structure to grab on to. You can copy licks or ideas, but the overall vibe is very difficult to grasp. Can't say that about many other players from his generation who were equally as influential in a broader sense. I know you've drawn similarities with Mitch Mitchell before, but I reckon even Mitch provides more of an anchor point from which to 'get inside his head'
"Force of nature" is very apt IMHO.

I know many say Zac Hill is the closest we come to a modern day Keth Moon, but personally I don't hear it. To me it takes more than just being erratic to draw any parallels to Moon the loon......you actually have to be pleasant to listen to too. :-)

Keith was not particularly interested in 'playing nice' with the other members of the band. He was not an anchor (although when he wasn't dosed up he actually had decent time) to follow like we consider most drummers to be. He was a 'lead' drummer - everything he did was played for the effect of melody as much as it was rhythm. In a way, Entwistle was a perfect foil for Moon in that Entwistle had superb time and was a very, very solid bass player rhythmically who could also play fantastic melodic lines.

I've tried to get into Keith Moon's head before as a player and I've only ever sounded like a pale imitation at best. I think that's true of most of us if we try. Oddly, I think the closest player to Keith Moon might well be Elvin Jones or Rashied Ali. Both players have similar melodic leanings that Moon emulated and both also had plenty of power. I know that Anthony has a lot to say about Elvin too (he's probably my favourite player) and I can't help but think that there's a direct link in the playing between Elvin and Keith - even if Keith wasn't aware of it.

Keith was not particularly interested in 'playing nice' with the other members of the band. He was not an anchor (although when he wasn't dosed up he actually had decent time) to follow like we consider most drummers to be. He was a 'lead' drummer - everything he did was played for the effect of melody as much as it was rhythm. In a way, Entwistle was a perfect foil for Moon in that Entwistle had superb time and was a very, very solid bass player rhythmically who could also play fantastic melodic lines.

I've tried to get into Keith Moon's head before as a player and I've only ever sounded like a pale imitation at best. I think that's true of most of us if we try. Oddly, I think the closest player to Keith Moon might well be Elvin Jones or Rashied Ali. Both players have similar melodic leanings that Moon emulated and both also had plenty of power. I know that Anthony has a lot to say about Elvin too (he's probably my favourite player) and I can't help but think that there's a direct link in the playing between Elvin and Keith - even if Keith wasn't aware of it.

when I was studying with Elvin in the mid to late 90s I was still very much a rock drummer trying to make sense of what in the world jazz players were doing.....and at the time I was obsessed with Keith and about a year removed from my extensive research and contact with Keiths family and friends...

...and I had asked Elvin about Keith Moon as I would ask him about lots of drummers.

Elvin expressed to me that he had not heard everything that Keith had done but what he heard he had enjoyed.....he said he liked his raw expression .

Well, speaking for myself I started out playing off the vocals and guitar because that's what I noticed. If I remember rightly, I found it hard to hear the bass under all my racket.

Edit: It probably seems far fetched for staid little old me to claim that I was a bit of an animal early on - evidence attached. To my mind that's what a certain stream of garage rock playing is - not playing the usual rhythm section role but chasing the guitar and vocals around. That's what Moonie did, but he was good enough and the band was good enough for it to work so famously well.

He played by the seat of his pants! Almost like he had tied a rope to his belt and lowered himself down from the rafters over the drum kit just good enough to be able to reach everything. when he got behind a drum kit his mind set was... if you don't like my driving then get the hell off the sidewalk! When he drank...If 3 were good then 10 would be better.

He loved the attention but I think it was becoming harder and harder to keep up playing the role of the crazy party animal drummer. Age was starting to catch up and I think he was getting tired of playing the role. Anywhere he went people expected him to play the role so they could get their laughs.

I think he was trying to make the adjustments to give up the booze and re-invent himself.
I can't often help but wonder what may have been If he or bonham could have gotten sober and re-appeared back on the scene some time in the eariy 80's. Just Imagin what one of those guys would have done if they got their hands on some of the modern updated gear that was on the way.

Had goldfish in his kit once and his 'excuse' was, "even the best drummers get 'ungry".

He seemed to make a point of putting cherry bombs or something in his kit and once he put a bit too many which resulted in one of the guitar people to have a piece of cymbal extracted from his head and the other was deaf in one ear

Had goldfish in his kit once and his 'excuse' was, "even the best drummers get 'ungry".

He seemed to make a point of putting cherry bombs or something in his kit and once he put a bit too many which resulted in one of the guitar people to have a piece of cymbal extracted from his head and the other was deaf in one ear

Something to do with Philly Jo seeing him play and asking how much he makes as a working musician playing like that. Upon finding out, he shook his head, handed him back his sticks and says something like "I sure as hell don't want to spoil it for you"

Philly Joe Jones, the great jazz drummer, was in London, I can't remember why, and somehow he ended up being in the same room with Keith Moon and a drum kit. So Philly asks Moon to show him what he can do, and Keith Moon sits down at the kit and proceeds to play the way that Keith Moon played the drums.

After he's finished, Philly asks him how much he makes playing the drums, and Keith Moon tells him. Philly whistles in amazement, and says, "Well, I sure don't want to spoil it for you."

I bet in studio recordings, there were lots of takes and overdubs..one of the reasons he wont play the same way everytime...but one thing is sure..there has never been a drummer like Keith Moon ever.........................all play technically.

I like Charley Watts playing in "sway", the dirtiest Charley Boy ever!

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"All Drummers play what the songs called for in all studio recordings??"

I don't really rate Keith Moon as a drummer. I think for the time period he appeared he was seen as an absolute mentalist behind the kit, but in terms of his actual playing style, I think it was more flamboyancy than anything.

The fact the guy was smacked off his tits for pretty much every playing scenario he was in probably also contributed towards his OTT playing style.

I must admit, I do think the visual aspect of drumming the 90% of pop music fans is more important than the actual drumming itself, Keith Moon is a prime example of this.

Apologies to anyone who is a massive fan, The Who had been and gone waaaay before I was born.

I enjoy the "what if" discussions. I believe that if Moonie had lived, he would have gotten kicked out of The Who during the tour to support Who Are You? The road just held too many temptations. Everyone in the band was fed up with Keith at that point, and I doubt that he would have changed his behavior to keep his job even though he often stated that he was the Who's "biggest fan".

Keith may have cleaned his act up (and he was trying at the time of his death), just because he was getting older. If he cleaned up, I think he would have been a fantastic comedian, maybe even having his own late night talk show.

I don't know how a sober Keith Moon would have sounded with The Who. Their music was changing in the late 70's, and Kenney Jones proved that the new material didn't really require any Keith Moon style drumming. At that point, Pete was saving his best material for his solo projects anyhow. It would have been interesting to see a 55 year old Keith Moon reunite with the rest of the Who for their tours in the early 00's before John died. I think he would've done it, and probably surprised an entire generation who only knew him from "Late Night with Moon".

Anyhow, I think Moonie was a brilliant musician, and impossible to imitate. I especially like his work on Rock n Roll Circus, Who's Next, and Quadrophenia.

I find his playing to be really distracting. There are many times when I listen to Who songs and I want to cringe after the hundredth roll down the toms. Guys like Keith are why other musicians assume any idiot can play the drums. Its the Animal mentality that anybody can beat on things with sticks.

Maybe its one of those "you had to be there" kind of things, but I really dont get it.

so you are suggesting that Moonies drumming was not an ENORMOUS piece within the puzzle that was the Whos sound?

Moon was an absolute force of nature who just happened to have a drum kit in front of him

I absolutely love the Who......love them!!!.......but without Moonie they are pure shit

his playing was extremely important to the sound of the band

he was the glue....and it is painfully obvious on the post Moon records

See, I just don't really get it with The Who... Like I said, they weren't part of my generation (pardon the pun).

I can see why they were popular, and yeah, Moon was a beast behind the drums, not saying that, but if anyone did that these days, they'd probably get slated for their playing by everyone on this forum.

Give anyone a bag full of Es and put them behind a drum kit and i'm sure Good ol' Moonie will reappear ;-)

I know many say Zac Hill is the closest we come to a modern day Keth Moon, but personally I don't hear it. To me it takes more than just being erratic to draw any parallels to Moon the loon......you actually have to be pleasant to listen to too. :-)

I'd never heard of Zac Hill, so just looked him up, and really liked what he was doing.

I find his playing to be really distracting. There are many times when I listen to Who songs and I want to cringe after the hundredth roll down the toms. Guys like Keith are why other musicians assume any idiot can play the drums. Its the Animal mentality that anybody can beat on things with sticks.

Maybe its one of those "you had to be there" kind of things, but I really dont get it.

I agree totally. I've never been a fan of Moon. I love The Who, though. But Keith's playing is simply awful. i couldn't get on board with it. It just didn't make any sense. It was like a 10 year old kid just beating on drums..And trashing your drum kit is not cool, it's just....pointless..