Ajahn Sudhiro, a Thai monk who has a forest monastery in Khon Kaen province (north-east Thailand) and also in New Zealand, is affiliated with Wat Rama IX and has helped to arrange temporary and long-term ordinations for several Westerners already. This would definitely be one alternative on the Dhammayut scene, although he personally travels a lot and cannot offer a consistent training probably. See his website at www.rightview.org

Thank you Ven. Gavesako.This sounds well worth looking into. I have had a lot of tips recently about people and places to look into in the North and N. East. I will definitely be focusing a lot of attention on this area. I will definitely try to get in touch with Ajahn Sudhiro and his fellows as well.

Better follow the news about Thailand to make sure your plane has somewhere to land: the political turmoil seems to be increasing again with rioting exected (at least if you stay in Bangkok for a while).

gavesako wrote:Better follow the news about Thailand to make sure your plane has somewhere to land: the political turmoil seems to be increasing again with rioting exected (at least if you stay in Bangkok for a while).

I hear that and keeping an eye on things as best as I can. I would like to spend at least a decade or two in Asia and hope to get it done before I have to worry more about the heat turning the tarmac to liquid, which is more of a concern imho. A few more degrees up and rice won't grow anymore, then it will probably be time to run like hell away. Political unrest, when does that ever end, really, anywhere?

May they get their communal act together and get on with it to their mutual well being and happiness.

Nathan, I am following your posting very closely as I hope to also hope go forth at one point in life when the conditions are ripe, in the Thai tradition, I on the other hand have a slight afinity towards Ajahn Anan teachings, though I haven't met him or even been in Thailand! I do hope go and visit Wat Marp Jan sometime this year for retreat.

All the best on this amazing journey you are about take! May you be in association of Noble spiritual friends who can guide you along the Path!May your aspirations be fulfilled this lifetime!

fijiNut wrote:Nathan, I am following your posting very closely as I hope to also hope go forth at one point in life when the conditions are ripe, in the Thai tradition, I on the other hand have a slight afinity towards Ajahn Anan teachings, though I haven't met him or even been in Thailand! I do hope go and visit Wat Marp Jan sometime this year for retreat.

All the best on this amazing journey you are about take! May you be in association of Noble spiritual friends who can guide you along the Path!May your aspirations be fulfilled this lifetime!

kind regards,fijiNut

Thanks FijiNut. All the best with your plans, I suggest you prepare well in the interim by conforming your habits and lifestyle as much as possible to the vinaya standards. I've been fortunate in many regards. For one thing I have a solid meditation practice and while I do hope to find a good community with excellent Dhamma/Vinaya I am probably going to be less dependent than others may be for meditation teachings. Hopefully I can get some solid Abhidhamma training out there and a lot of good experience on the ground. I'm really looking forward to it as I haven't yet been overseas. I realize it is a tricky time to go so things are all kind of tentative.

One snag is that a monastery here in Canada, my home country, has lost three stewards all at once just recently so I sent them a message telling them that I would be willing to stand in until they could find suitable replacements. No word back yet but I expect to hear soon if they would like me to help out.

I will do everything I can to stay in touch here in this thread or via pms and email so feel free to pm with email if you want to be included in the news loop or just monitor this thread for whatever news I can put online. I think we could all use more info on ordaining overseas as the situation is constantly changing and although I have been given many good leads it is very difficult to know what kind of people and communities you are dealing with until you are actually there. That's why I decided not to make any ordination arrangements in advance. Ten years ago when I first decided to commit to this course of action I was in favor of ordaining in the west if possible, at this point I would like to live the bhikkhu's 'homeless' lifestyle as fully as possible and I think that really requires relocating to one of the traditional host cultures. Here, homeless people are mistreated and disrespected no matter why they are on the streets, certainly they are unlikely to be fed much of anything worth eating. So, here goes...

Nathan, The few things that I have been trying to do to prepare:1)Brahmacariya - this one goes against the grain, not so much the physical urges, but the mental beating that my mind gives when it tries to resist, this one is fun to mentally watch.2)Eating at appropriate times and in moderate amounts - not hard as my experience on retreats and mindfulness of eating have reduced my appetite drastically3)strong addithanna in meditation practice - tough cookie this one, sloth & torport hindrance is strong4)sleeping less - maybe 4-6 hours - also hard, same hindrance as in (3)5)learn a little more about Thai language and culture - funny tones and alphabets that looks like noodles, how bizzare!

The plan for me is, provided one enrols in a Thai language institute, there is a 1 year non-immigrant ED education visa to learn Thai (renewable for upto 3 years) I hope to make use of to both learn Thai and to scope out different monasteries and observe the different teachers, and to absorb the culture both inside and outside the monasteries.This would be to mitigate culture shock and having to adjust to too many things at once, and also to assess the monastery culture and abbot so to speak. This is how I would approach ordination in Thailand, but for now the reality is there is a major kammic obstruction in the form of parental and family consent.We'll see how things go.

fijiNut wrote:Nathan, The few things that I have been trying to do to prepare:1)Brahmacariya - this one goes against the grain, not so much the physical urges, but the mental beating that my mind gives when it tries to resist, this one is fun to mentally watch.2)Eating at appropriate times and in moderate amounts - not hard as my experience on retreats and mindfulness of eating have reduced my appetite drastically3)strong addithanna in meditation practice - tough cookie this one, sloth & torport hindrance is strong4)sleeping less - maybe 4-6 hours - also hard, same hindrance as in (3)5)learn a little more about Thai language and culture - funny tones and alphabets that looks like noodles, how bizzare!

The plan for me is, provided one enrols in a Thai language institute, there is a 1 year non-immigrant ED education visa to learn Thai (renewable for upto 3 years) I hope to make use of to both learn Thai and to scope out different monasteries and observe the different teachers, and to absorb the culture both inside and outside the monasteries.This would be to mitigate culture shock and having to adjust to too many things at once, and also to assess the monastery culture and abbot so to speak. This is how I would approach ordination in Thailand, but for now the reality is there is a major kammic obstruction in the form of parental and family consent.We'll see how things go.

Keep in touch.

kind regards, fijiNut

Yeah, great thoughts. I found just doing the anagarika program for a while in a wholehearted way was highly instructive. Showed me so many areas that needed a lot of work. The toughest adjustment was not eating after mid-day because you can find yourself working pretty hard even as a monk. I know it has been common in the Thai forest tradition for anagarikas to drop from exhaustion now and then in the first year or two. It is not extreme asceticism but it is not easy either. For me my life long challenge will be to simply shut up. So I have been trying to say and ask every stupid thing that might come to mind before I am wearing that uniform even though that can be a really stupid practice sometimes. I think just putting the robes on will, like any other uniform, come with great responsibilities to that order it represents and I will be both humbled and silenced to just note that color hanging there from my sleeve It would be inconceivable to me that I could just learn to carry myself like a bhikkhu without the guidance of senior and well practiced companions in the holy life to chasten and correct me and often until I learn better. For me that is the whole idea. Anyone can practice the path but the bhikkhu life is a support for a truly harmless and potentially blameless way of life, not that I should expect that I or anyone else would necessarily ever perfect that way of life. It is another kind of practice in itself in a way.

I have been kind of thinking about language school too. It will probably better to find out if the people I would like to be with for the foreseeable future will even be speaking Thai first. I picked up some CDs and the Rosetta Stone Thai course -level one. None of this is as simple as it might seem from elsewhere. Being there will afford a much more fully informed pov. Maybe I can stop in at the restaurant if I make my way that way in my travels.

I was looking at FIji on the map and it is a little ways from where I will be roaming about, but not that far. Who knows which way the wind will blow and I plan to be a lot closer in a week than I am at this moment, that's for sure.

On the parental and familial approval front. I suggest you relax, keep the peace and let your virtues do the talking. I think as we get older one generally encounters a growing acceptance of who one is, for who they are, one way or another. My thinking is, make you the best you you can, knowing of course that it isn't really under your complete control anyways. You are, let's say, simply one of your biggest influences. As far as I know, parental approval is only necessary up to a given age, it might be best if one of the Ven. explains what the rules are and how these should be interpreted. I know that when I first went of to train for ordination my parents reaction was a great shock to me. In a tearful farewell they bid me goodbye and let me go. I had been so overwhelmed with joy that I wasn't prepared for the emotional contrast. It felt like their hearts were kind of breaking and as if I was a witness to my own funeral. I was deeply affected by it and I remembered them daily in my meditations. Always thankful for their noble parentage.

To be honest if anyone should ask how it is that I came to have an appreciation for what is noble and good I would tell them of my family. I would explain that from my father I have learned wisdom, from my mother I have learned compassion and from my sister I have learned about a virtue so strong and steady that it gives rise to an ever deepening ongoing purity of being even in this seemingly most difficult, complex and confusing age. I have been truly blessed to be born in among such kind, gentle, honest and hard working people who bring little but a mountain of meritorious thought, speech and action into the world. They set the bar high in my father's, father's house, and it is humbling. They are truly wealthy in much more than worldly things and I have never lacked much in any way for any good thing.

Still, I searched for what they would call, in their tradition, the pearl of great price. I found it, beyond any doubt, in the Buddhadhamma.

I'm back from my three day excursion to the big city.Big change for the country mouse. Lotta looking ahead, right, left, up, down, pausing, walking and running. Not to mention a thousand km on the Hyundai Accent. Man I feel sometimes like I must be getting pretty close to reaching a billion miles on the highways of this vast country I have called my home. Btw, my home town, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, is in some trouble again (spring flooding). So, send out a little metta that way if you get the chance.

I hope to have time for a full report this weekend, for now I am a bit too exhausted to continue. When I am very tired I tend to ramble and write too much so I will get back to this thread in a day or two to add some detailed info on my visit to the consulate and my plans ahead. For now I'll simply let everyone know that the journey is a go and I am set to land in Thailand on the 24th.

Reading the last couple of posts two things came to mind, one in each...first, the language...I may very well catch it from some direction but the bottom line is, you don't need it...not beyond basic communication...where's the bus station?, when's the next train?, how ya doin?,...I could go on but I think you get the gist...as I've eluded to in other posts Thais are not interested in 'philosophical' discussions (nor any other kind) with 'Falangs' (generally speaking, anyone not an Asian)...and if you travel around the country you'll see that Thais don't even understand each other, because those in the North don't speak anything like those in the South, even though they share the same language...and you won't be discussing Dhamma with monks either...because they don't discuss it amongst themselves...so, I would get myself a Lonely Planet phrasebook and dive into that...if you master what's in there you won't have any problems (and forget the 'tones' too, you'll pick those up as you learn new words and listen to people speak)...second, (Nathan) you won't get any guidance by any 'senior and well practiced companions'...you're on your own here...watch how they, the other monks (and lay people), do things and try to fit in...it'll all work out in the end...

Now, before anyone familiar with the monkhood and Thailand want to dispute my read on things, let me add the caveat that this view has been formed by my experience of more than thirty years in (every corner of)Thailand...granted, it won't be the same everywhere, nor for everyone...it's just that, my experience...

Reading the last couple of posts two things came to mind, one in each...first, the language...I may very well catch it from some direction but the bottom line is, you don't need it...not beyond basic communication...where's the bus station?, when's the next train?, how ya doin?,...I could go on but I think you get the gist...as I've eluded to in other posts Thais are not interested in 'philosophical' discussions (nor any other kind) with 'Falangs' (generally speaking, anyone not an Asian)...and if you travel around the country you'll see that Thais don't even understand each other, because those in the North don't speak anything like those in the South, even though they share the same language...and you won't be discussing Dhamma with monks either...because they don't discuss it amongst themselves...so, I would get myself a Lonely Planet phrasebook and dive into that...if you master what's in there you won't have any problems (and forget the 'tones' too, you'll pick those up as you learn new words and listen to people speak)...second, (Nathan) you won't get any guidance by any 'senior and well practiced companions'...you're on your own here...watch how they, the other monks (and lay people), do things and try to fit in...it'll all work out in the end...

Now, before anyone familiar with the monkhood and Thailand want to dispute my read on things, let me add the caveat that this view has been formed by my experience of more than thirty years in (every corner of)Thailand...granted, it won't be the same everywhere, nor for everyone...it's just that, my experience...

Again, best wishes to both of you in your endeavors...

Thank you Ven. Appicchato, for sharing your insights and for the candid advice.

To be honest, all of my conversations with the forest monks here in the west, even after many months at the monastery wouldn't fill three minutes either! I think this is for the best for everyone. We aren't, as monastics, in the business of being social butterflies are we? We are busy about the quiet business of mindfulness and nurturing what wisdom we possibly can. I think the monks here have prepared me well in that respect. I can also well understand the various sorts of Thai attitudes towards westerners given what much of their experience of westerners has probably been like. I do intend to pay attention, be careful, remain calm and composed and to "keep my big mouth shut!" I don't think it is much different, or at least optimally, this shouldn't be much different, even among a group of mostly western monks.

I have plenty of good phrase and language books and loads of software too. The challenge will be to pare it down to a reasonable size before I board the plane and begin plodding around the Thai countryside.

I found a whole bunch of great books at one of my favorite bookstores in Vancouver which has an extensive Theravada Dhamma section; it is one of the few book stores in Canada which does.

I found copies of many of the BPS meditation classics, which are small, concise and pack easily, as well as "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by Ven. U Silananda, "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond" by Ajahn Brahm and "Satipatthana - The Direct Path to Realization" by Ven. Analayo. I'm looking forward to reading these in their entirety for the first time. They had many free copies of "Venerable Acariya Mun Bhuridatta Thera - A Spiritual Biography" by Acariya Maha Boowa Nanasampanno in the office of the Thai Consulate. I've read it a couple of times but I picked up a copy for a friend. They had a lot of other useful information there as well which I read over that evening. I returned much of it the next day but kept the complimentary map. I have a couple others but it may prove handy yet. I found another book in Vancouver, "Culture Shock! - A Survival Guide to Customs and Etiquette - Thailand" by Robert Cooper. I haven't had time to look it over yet but it looked like it might be helpful as well.

It's available from:Marshal Cavendishhttp://www.marshallcavendish.com/(Those interested will have to browse this site to find it or maybe search amazon or something as I don't have time right now to locate a specific link.)

Here is some current information which may be useful for those who are interested in traveling to Thailand and/or plan to visit the Thai Consulate in Vancouver, BC, Canada. The consulate is located in the heart of the downtown Vancouver business sector at 1040 Burrard Street. To apply for a visa in person at the consulate the office entryway is located on the ground floor of the central tower of the Sheraton Vancouver Wall Centre. If you are traveling by car there is underground parking accessible from Homer Street which is a one way street, parallel to Burrard Street and to the rear of the Sheraton's three tower complex.

It costs a fortune to park in downtown Vancouver and one hour in this parkade is four dollars Canadian. If you plan to spend the day in lovely downtown Vancouver I suggest you take advantage of the car wash and detailing service at the entry to the parkade. For 25 dollars CDN they will wash your car, vacume and clean the interior and validate your parking. They did a good job of it, proved trustworthy (none of the personal property in of the car was missing or damaged) and for that kind of excellent service and security together with a full day of parking downtown this is an astonishingly good value for the money.

I had a very positive experience at this consulate. The staff were friendly and courteous and their service is fast and efficient. You must present your visa, photo, flight and ticket information along with your visa application (forms are available at their office) between 9:30 a.m. and 12:30 p.m.., Monday to Friday. You can pick up your visa the next working day between the same hours. So far as I know this is the most efficient Thai visa experience (outside of the country and neighboring regions) I have heard of anywhere. Clearly the Thai peoples and the Canadian peoples have established a very positive relationship as the many business and cultural relationships will abundantly demonstrate. In addition to all of the other positive aspects of the Thai Consulate in Vancouver, Thailand’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs has announced an exemption for tourist visa fees for all foreigners that apply for a tourist visa, for the period of 5 March to 4 June, 2009.

If you travel downhill on Burrard Street towards Canada Place you will find all sorts of Banking and other services. There are all kinds of world class shops, restaurants, private and public services in the downtown core. I found a fantastic Malaysian/Thai restaurant on Robson Street (Robson intersects Burrard several blocks down the hill from the Thai Consulate) near to my bank and availed myself of an excellent meal there for a reasonable price. There are also very good luggage shops and a number of currency exchanges on Robson Street. There are plenty of good travel agencies in Vancouver and I was able to book a one way flight for Bangkok on Cathay Pacific, one week in advance, for $902.00 CDN. Every time I go to Vancouver I enjoy my time there for up to three days and then I like to leave before it costs me an arm and a leg!

So, I'm all set to go and now I have to get back to the work of wrapping up my worldly affairs in my home country something that will have me looking like a blur for most of each day until shortly before I depart!

I was looking at FIji on the map and it is a little ways from where I will be roaming about, but not that far. Who knows which way the wind will blow and I plan to be a lot closer in a week than I am at this moment, that's for sure.

On the parental and familial approval front. I suggest you relax, keep the peace and let your virtues do the talking. I think as we get older one generally encounters a growing acceptance of who one is, for who they are, one way or another. My thinking is, make you the best you you can, knowing of course that it isn't really under your complete control anyways. You are, let's say, simply one of your biggest influences.

Nathan, this isn't something doesn't bothers me, previously I used to have lots of angst on this matter, but then I realized its probably the best that I share whatever Dhamma I can with them, as they are not Buddhists, if they can see the benefit of the path I want to take, they will naturally give their blessings, but at this moment in time, they think Buddhism is bowing down 3 times in front the Kwan Yin and asking for lots of money and prosperity (traditional Chinese Mahayana perspective), this however is slowly changing due to my slow efforts.

nathan wrote:....To be honest if anyone should ask how it is that I came to have an appreciation for what is noble and good I would tell them of my family. I would explain that from my father I have learned wisdom, from my mother I have learned compassion and from my sister I have learned about a virtue so strong and steady that it gives rise to an ever deepening ongoing purity of being even in this seemingly most difficult, complex and confusing age. I have been truly blessed to be born in among such kind, gentle, honest and hard working people who bring little but a mountain of meritorious thought, speech and action into the world. They set the bar high in my father's, father's house, and it is humbling. They are truly wealthy in much more than worldly things and I have never lacked much in any way for any good thing......metta and upekkha

Nathan, I see it exactly the same way, being raised in a family with so many good virtues, it makes very grateful and realize that I have much to learn from all those around me, so the best gift we can give back is the gift of Dhamma.

Has anyone here read 'Phra Farang' by Phra Peter Pannapadipo?It's all about doing what you're planning on doing Nathan and Fijinut It's a good read.

I have a copy here that I would gladly lend to anyone who wants to borrow it, I'll pay the shipping charges. In fact you may as well keep it. With any luck I won't be needing it in a month or so.

On Wednesday I'm going to contact the Monastary in Wellington, New Zealand - Bodhinyanarama. I'm gonna put my car up for auction on trademe, once it sells, i'm giving my 2 weeks notice at work, then hopefully off to stay at Bodhinyanarama Monastary. I'll check it out for a few weeks, if it's to my liking, I'll stay on for good.

Breaking it to Mum was easier than expected.Breaking it to my close friend was easier than expected.

So far so good.

With mettaJack

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

I would simply make arrangements with them to visit and then drive there. It's usually best to see how things go for a while at first (unless of course you have already been and so on), if things go well and they welcome you to stay on then I'm sure they will let you go sell your car and wrap up whatever business you need to before you continue on with the training.All the best with your aspirations and plans.

Hello all from Bangkok. I have been here since midnight of the 24th of April, 2552BE. I have been quite busy orienting myself and adjusting to the country. The hotel kindly assigned me a car and driver and now a translator as well. Apparently when one intends to go forth one gets very excellent treatment. The push is on among my new Thai friends for me to ordain in their home village at Wat Lardchid, [excuse me please if this is misspelled as it is difficult making out the handwriting on the note I have been given about this Wat and Abbot] Amphur Paktlai, Ayuthaya Province. The Mahathera Abbot there is Luangpor Surin Charnachote, he is very senior and has over 50 years in the robes as he ordained at about age twenty and has remained a monk consistently throughout all the years since. We made a visit there yesterday and the Abbot thinks I have a good chance to be ordained as a Samanera in perhaps three months time if I can complete some preliminary work of learning specific teachings; it is as yet unclear which teachings but we will attempt to clarify this should I chose to work towards ordination at this Wat and it therefore proves necessary to do so. The village is a rural one and the laity is quite active and involved; also there are many monks but it is predominantly Thai people and my Thai is still very rudimentary to put it very kindly. There are some however who are willing to assist me with my Thai and also to translate as necessary. Any well informed feedback is welcomed but please remain respectful. Thank you.metta & upekkha