Tell me again how first come first serve is not fair? Tell me how the new system is working out just fine?Tell me how your gonna build your art project (the real kind with welding and fabrication involved) not knowing if your going to make it.Tell me how your doing your budget not knowing who with be there or not.Tell me you love me?

First come first serve is not fair because Scalpers will be able to get a large amount of the tickets this way, also, with tickets becoming available in the Christmas season, lot of people are unable to produce the funds neccissary to aquire a ticket at that time.It's working just fine because there is a very small amount of tickets available through scalpers, and most people (until this final 10,000) had an equal opportunity to get a ticket.Most people who built large projects (i hope) were smart enough to go into the presale in December.I don't really understand this question. It doesn't matter who shows up, I'm still going to have to budget the same amount for gas, food, costumes, etc... who's going, or how many people are going do not affect these things.I love you... if you let me be big spoon.

The questions you're asking have been asked and answered many times around here already.

It's a matter of resourcefulness and what you're comfortable doing. Some camps/projects don't start doing anything until their slots are full, dues are paid, and all the money is raised. Others do some advance planning, work out some estimates for the numbers, and then proceed with the work and try to get tickets sorted.

It is part of my life 24/7, 52 weeks a year. The event is icing on the cake, not the sole purpose of my efforts. If you are not at peace with your lifestyle choice, maybe it is time to step back and reassess your motives.

My prime directive is to make people smile while discovering, discussing and doing things they never imagined.

Just ask yourself, "Why am I doing this?" If it is selfish, if it is obligation, if it is narcissistic, your motives will fail you. When that happens, bitterness, anger and frustration attack you and eat away the fabric of your soul. Honestly,,,,, check your motives and adjust accordingly.

Trishntek wrote:It is part of my life 24/7, 52 weeks a year. The event is icing on the cake, not the sole purpose of my efforts. If you are not at peace with your lifestyle choice, maybe it is time to step back and reassess your motives.

My prime directive is to make people smile while discovering, discussing and doing things they never imagined.

Just ask yourself, "Why am I doing this?" If it is selfish, if it is obligation, if it is narcissistic, your motives will fail you. When that happens, bitterness, anger and frustration attack you and eat away the fabric of your soul. Honestly,,,,, check your motives and adjust accordingly.

remi wrote:First come first serve is not fair because Scalpers will be able to get a large amount of the tickets this way, also, with tickets becoming available in the Christmas season, lot of people are unable to produce the funds neccissary to aquire a ticket at that time.It's working just fine because there is a very small amount of tickets available through scalpers, and most people (until this final 10,000) had an equal opportunity to get a ticket.Most people who built large projects (i hope) were smart enough to go into the presale in December.I don't really understand this question. It doesn't matter who shows up, I'm still going to have to budget the same amount for gas, food, costumes, etc... who's going, or how many people are going do not affect these things.I love you... if you let me be big spoon.

1. Unless you make tickets non-transferable, in which case the incentive to hoard and scalp are gone.2. A smart scalper won't try to sell his tickets until he has them, that way no chance of having his order cancelled, so we don't know how many scalper ticket there will be until the very end. The lottery encouraged scalping and hoarding, the antithesis of fair.3. Forcing contributors to pay extra to get into pre-sale is more fair that first come first serve? Most of my 36 campers can't afford the regular tickets, much less the most expensive tickets BM has ever offered. It discriminates against low-earners (artists) in favor of high earners (corporate middle-managers).4. You don't understand the question because you appear to be coming from the POV of an individual, not an art collective or camp. Camps build budgets based on how many people they have, who has volunteered equipment/resources, and they don't know now. In fact they won't know until right before the burn, because that's when STEP is going to be hottest and scalpers will be dumping their supply.5. I love you too, and you can be either spoon you want.

Everyone loves me. Thank you. I love you all.And I love welding for you. I really do. From some little spot weld to a weekend long project i never say no to a burner in need. It is my alchemy of metal that i give to the world.

And yes the basic costs are expected. I even have the budget to get an ice maker this year. Yeah...come on by for my ice.

Trishntek wrote:It is part of my life 24/7, 52 weeks a year. The event is icing on the cake, not the sole purpose of my efforts. If you are not at peace with your lifestyle choice, maybe it is time to step back and reassess your motives.

My prime directive is to make people smile while discovering, discussing and doing things they never imagined.

Just ask yourself, "Why am I doing this?" If it is selfish, if it is obligation, if it is narcissistic, your motives will fail you. When that happens, bitterness, anger and frustration attack you and eat away the fabric of your soul. Honestly,,,,, check your motives and adjust accordingly.

And i want to see charlie ride again. And i have done what has been asked. I relied on myself. Got into the lottery. And I accept the fact that the fates may not grant me the experience this year.

I am still going to do everything and anything to make it happen for those who can go. Period.

But there is a spectrum of dream for this camp and project. Soon. Very soon one or two of those dreams need to be picked out. Using all the information possible. How many people are going and what the collective camp fees are and who is going to do what are fundamental to deciding which dreams to make.

trilobyte wrote:So what you're saying is that even after the event had been sold out and nothing was available through official channels… you were able to get a ticket a mere two weeks before the event.

Here is how it went. I joined up with a group who needed a welder. I fell out of the sky into the laps of a camp that had the Camp Charlie Art Car dream.The bought into the dream and threw all my resources into that project. I had no intention of going as I had zero cash. I got laid off from my union electrician job and work is nasty slow as we all know.

And out of nowhere.....Ken Feldman....the dreamer of dreams and HMFIC of the camp told me to get a bicycle two weeks before Charlie departed.

And why I asked.

Because you need a bike to get around on the playa....and he handed me a ticket.

NOW that is a gift. That is how I went.Selflessness begets selflessness

And I want to make the dream happen again regardless of if I go or not. You tell me what you want. You get me the materials I need. And stand back. I will make it happen.

“This has me waking up at night terrified,” said Marian Goodell, a founding board member and spokeswoman for Black Rock City, the company that organizes Burning Man in the desert outside Gerlach, Nev. “It is the end of Burning Man if we don’t solve this.”

New York Times article on Burning Man

So if the powers that be think this is a disaster.....why in hell is anyone arguing that the new system is working swimmingly well?

engineerbender wrote:.....why in hell is anyone arguing that the new system is working swimmingly well?

I don't think anyone is at this point.. but I do believe along with many others that the BORG did the best with what information they had at the moment. No one knew that there would be requests for 120,000 tickets. No one.

engineerbender wrote:“This has me waking up at night terrified,” said Marian Goodell, a founding board member and spokeswoman for Black Rock City, the company that organizes Burning Man in the desert outside Gerlach, Nev. “It is the end of Burning Man if we don’t solve this.”

New York Times article on Burning Man

So if the powers that be think this is a disaster.....why in hell is anyone arguing that the new system is working swimmingly well?

Because some folks have drunk so much of the kool-aid they're afraid that changing their minds will hurt their self identity.

engineerbender wrote:“This has me waking up at night terrified,” said Marian Goodell, a founding board member and spokeswoman for Black Rock City, the company that organizes Burning Man in the desert outside Gerlach, Nev. “It is the end of Burning Man if we don’t solve this.”

New York Times article on Burning Man

So if the powers that be think this is a disaster.....why in hell is anyone arguing that the new system is working swimmingly well?

Because some folks have drunk so much of the kool-aid they're afraid that changing their minds will hurt their self identity.

hahahahah! Notice that said kool-aid drinkers have become more mean-spirited, mocking, and hostile on the message boards since the organizers have admitted that this ticketing change has become an unmitigated disaster at risk of literally destroying the event (their words, not mine).... These are usually a pretty jovial bunch....

PS - Trilo being the exception here, who has displayed the patience and equanimity of a Zen monk....

see i have a theory. There are artist and there are fabricators. There are true art cars and there are ruckus wagons. And there are a few glorious instances where these two meet up in complete union. I am a fabricator. Simple as that. Most of us are one or the other. Because it takes a lifetime of following the fabrication route or artist path. Now at Burning Man i meet those souls who are both. And i am inspired by both the building of the art and the artistic awesomeness of it. Those who can dream and create that dream to inspire the builders and the dreamers...those souls are the ones i bow to.

And different things at the burn might be able to be seen this way.

The temple is a type of true art car. The man is a ruckus wagon.

The ticket sales should have been handled by the fabrication type. Not the artistic in nature. Because the current execution blows. Seriously. I love you my fellow dusty hippy friends. But get someone who knows how to make it happen.

HOW MUCH WASTED TIME AND ENERGY HAS THIS NEW PROCESS WASTED?

If this years ticket sales processes were an art car.....it would not get through inspection. LOL, It would not even make it onto the playa.

engineerbender wrote:see i have a theory. There are artist and there are fabricators. There are true art cars and there are ruckus wagons. And there are a few glorious instances where these two meet up in complete union. I am a fabricator. Simple as that. Most of us are one or the other. Because it takes a lifetime of following the fabrication route or artist path. Now at Burning Man i meet those souls who are both. And i am inspired by both the building of the art and the artistic awesomeness of it. Those who can dream and create that dream to inspire the builders and the dreamers...those souls are the ones i bow to.

And different things at the burn might be able to be seen this way.

The temple is a type of true art car. The man is a ruckus wagon.

The ticket sales should have been handled by the fabrication type. Not the artistic in nature. Because the current execution blows. Seriously. I love you my fellow dusty hippy friends. But get someone who knows how to make it happen.

HOW MUCH WASTED TIME AND ENERGY HAS THIS NEW PROCESS WASTED?

If this years ticket sales processes were an art car.....it would not get through inspection. LOL, It would not even make it onto the playa.

I've been voicing the need for rational, seasoned, professional leadership assistance from outside the community for some time. Frankly, it's what dragged me onto this board. Let me tell you, my friend, it is an uphill battle. There are a lot of sacred cows in the organization that people are afraid to slaughter.

The cult of Larry Harvey (which I'm not asserting he ever wanted in the first place) is very devoted and reluctant to admit the board's humanness because that is "negativity", or the fact that even talented people eventually get out of their depth and need help because "they know better than we do". As a recovering former executive who has owned smaller businesses and served larger businesses, I feel quite clear that the organization has gotten too big for them to run effectively, and that they need some high power assistance. Like the frog in a pot, the heat has been going up so slowly that they didn't know they were getting boiled until after the fact.

I'm not volunteering; my experience was in for-profit, not non-profit, and I didn't have to suffer volunteers; if someone did a bad job I could fire them and there would be 2 others applying for the position. But there are serious MBA's out there with serious skills who can see the implications of the changing climate and the implications of their policy decisions. If the board loves what they've created and really want to preserve it through this transition, I would suggest they hire a few.

engineerbender wrote:“This has me waking up at night terrified,” said Marian Goodell, a founding board member and spokeswoman for Black Rock City, the company that organizes Burning Man in the desert outside Gerlach, Nev. “It is the end of Burning Man if we don’t solve this.”

New York Times article on Burning Man

So if the powers that be think this is a disaster.....why in hell is anyone arguing that the new system is working swimmingly well?

Because some folks have drunk so much of the kool-aid they're afraid that changing their minds will hurt their self identity.

hahahahah! Notice that said kool-aid drinkers have become more mean-spirited, mocking, and hostile on the message boards since the organizers have admitted that this ticketing change has become an unmitigated disaster at risk of literally destroying the event (their words, not mine).... These are usually a pretty jovial bunch....

PS - Trilo being the exception here, who has displayed the patience and equanimity of a Zen monk....

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engineerbender wrote:see i have a theory. There are artist and there are fabricators. There are true art cars and there are ruckus wagons. And there are a few glorious instances where these two meet up in complete union. I am a fabricator. Simple as that. Most of us are one or the other. Because it takes a lifetime of following the fabrication route or artist path. Now at Burning Man i meet those souls who are both. And i am inspired by both the building of the art and the artistic awesomeness of it. Those who can dream and create that dream to inspire the builders and the dreamers...those souls are the ones i bow to.

And different things at the burn might be able to be seen this way.

The temple is a type of true art car. The man is a ruckus wagon.

The ticket sales should have been handled by the fabrication type. Not the artistic in nature. Because the current execution blows. Seriously. I love you my fellow dusty hippy friends. But get someone who knows how to make it happen.

HOW MUCH WASTED TIME AND ENERGY HAS THIS NEW PROCESS WASTED?

If this years ticket sales processes were an art car.....it would not get through inspection. LOL, It would not even make it onto the playa.

I've been voicing the need for rational, seasoned, professional leadership assistance from outside the community for some time. Frankly, it's what dragged me onto this board. Let me tell you, my friend, it is an uphill battle. There are a lot of sacred cows in the organization that people are afraid to slaughter.

The cult of Larry Harvey (which I'm not asserting he ever wanted in the first place) is very devoted and reluctant to admit the board's humanness because that is "negativity", or the fact that even talented people eventually get out of their depth and need help because "they know better than we do". As a recovering former executive who has owned smaller businesses and served larger businesses, I feel quite clear that the organization has gotten too big for them to run effectively, and that they need some high power assistance. Like the frog in a pot, the heat has been going up so slowly that they didn't know they were getting boiled until after the fact.

I'm not volunteering; my experience was in for-profit, not non-profit, and I didn't have to suffer volunteers; if someone did a bad job I could fire them and there would be 2 others applying for the position. But there are serious MBA's out there with serious skills who can see the implications of the changing climate and the implications of their policy decisions. If the board loves what they've created and really want to preserve it through this transition, I would suggest they hire a few.

Yep, there are the vision people (LH, for one) and then there are people who can implement and delegate that vision. It's actually fairly astounding that BM has retained such clarity of vision for 25+ years while the event grew, and I give the BMORG all the credit in the world for that. For instance, forming an LLC to protect "the brand" was an unpopular move at the time, but it was absolutely essential to keep BM out of the hands of those who would merely exploit it. And I don't think the ticketing mess is an indictment on that vision/philosophy, it's simply a matter of logistics and scale. It's time for them to realize it's outgrown their little band of friends' ability to manage it by themselves, which I think they have, actually. The Burning Man Project, the move to non-profit status, etc. It's just bad timing that popularity of the event exploded before such administrative transitions were complete.

trilobyte wrote:The questions you're asking have been asked and answered many times around here already.

It's a matter of resourcefulness and what you're comfortable doing. Some camps/projects don't start doing anything until their slots are full, dues are paid, and all the money is raised. Others do some advance planning, work out some estimates for the numbers, and then proceed with the work and try to get tickets sorted.

Such is with our camp (chop shop bicycle repair camp). At this point, many of us do not have tickets. In particular, one of our members who builds bikes for a living. He brings more tools/stands/parts than your average default world bike shop has. As of today, he is not sure of his plans. Those of us that have tickets will be there for sure, though I am sure we will be a smaller camp than in years past.

If push comes to shove, I will load my TIG, chop saw, plasma cutter, and various hand tools on a golf cart, and roam the playa doing mobile fabrication/welding/mv repair.

Either way, Ill be there, and if there are fewer and smaller theme/sound camps then so be it. Maybe this will be the "Burningman unplugged" year.

engineerbender wrote:see i have a theory. There are artist and there are fabricators. There are true art cars and there are ruckus wagons. And there are a few glorious instances where these two meet up in complete union. I am a fabricator. Simple as that. Most of us are one or the other. Because it takes a lifetime of following the fabrication route or artist path. Now at Burning Man i meet those souls who are both. And i am inspired by both the building of the art and the artistic awesomeness of it. Those who can dream and create that dream to inspire the builders and the dreamers...those souls are the ones i bow to.

And different things at the burn might be able to be seen this way.

The temple is a type of true art car. The man is a ruckus wagon.

The ticket sales should have been handled by the fabrication type. Not the artistic in nature. Because the current execution blows. Seriously. I love you my fellow dusty hippy friends. But get someone who knows how to make it happen.

HOW MUCH WASTED TIME AND ENERGY HAS THIS NEW PROCESS WASTED?

If this years ticket sales processes were an art car.....it would not get through inspection. LOL, It would not even make it onto the playa.

Engineer, I have a story....

A couple years ago, i was building/fabricating a 3 link rear suspension set up on my 62 Impala ragtop. I had it all figured out, right down to the last Heim joint. I had, in my mind, built and designed the perfect set up. And it was, except for one glaringly obvious problem. But I didnt see that at the time.

So I put fab'd all the parts, assembled the components, and as i was lowering the frame off the stands, the mistake I made reared its ugly head! I had put the pivot point of the wishbone on the wrong side of the centerline, thus reversing the pivot angle of the differential as it relates to the driveshaft.

An obvious mistake that would have been apparent to me, had I not been dwelling on the minutia of other aspects of the job.

What im trying to say in a rather somewhat loquatious fashion is that I suspect the same thing happened to the org. It looked great on jackstands, but when it was put on the ground, the end result did not match what was expected. A simple design flaw.

The time for us to be angry will be next year, if the same design parameters that were employed this year are repeated next. In the mean time, try to get a ticket. If you succeed, there is a seat next to me on the golf cart...

engineerbender wrote:see i have a theory. There are artist and there are fabricators. There are true art cars and there are ruckus wagons. And there are a few glorious instances where these two meet up in complete union. I am a fabricator. Simple as that. Most of us are one or the other. Because it takes a lifetime of following the fabrication route or artist path. Now at Burning Man i meet those souls who are both. And i am inspired by both the building of the art and the artistic awesomeness of it. Those who can dream and create that dream to inspire the builders and the dreamers...those souls are the ones i bow to.

And different things at the burn might be able to be seen this way.

The temple is a type of true art car. The man is a ruckus wagon.

The ticket sales should have been handled by the fabrication type. Not the artistic in nature. Because the current execution blows. Seriously. I love you my fellow dusty hippy friends. But get someone who knows how to make it happen.

HOW MUCH WASTED TIME AND ENERGY HAS THIS NEW PROCESS WASTED?

If this years ticket sales processes were an art car.....it would not get through inspection. LOL, It would not even make it onto the playa.

Engineer, I have a story....

A couple years ago, i was building/fabricating a 3 link rear suspension set up on my 62 Impala ragtop. I had it all figured out, right down to the last Heim joint. I had, in my mind, built and designed the perfect set up. And it was, except for one glaringly obvious problem. But I didnt see that at the time.

So I put fab'd all the parts, assembled the components, and as i was lowering the frame off the stands, the mistake I made reared its ugly head! I had put the pivot point of the wishbone on the wrong side of the centerline, thus reversing the pivot angle of the differential as it relates to the driveshaft.

An obvious mistake that would have been apparent to me, had I not been dwelling on the minutia of other aspects of the job.

What im trying to say in a rather somewhat loquatious fashion is that I suspect the same thing happened to the org. It looked great on jackstands, but when it was put on the ground, the end result did not match what was expected. A simple design flaw.

The time for us to be angry will be next year, if the same design parameters that were employed this year are repeated next. In the mean time, try to get a ticket. If you succeed, there is a seat next to me on the golf cart...

"The Burner spirit means a synthesis between restraint and freedom, between voluntary subordination and conscientious leadership, between pride in oneself and consideration for others, between rigor and compassion. Unless a balance is kept between these qualities, the Burner spirit is in danger of degenerating into soulless routine and narrow-minded dogmatism"

Simon of the Playa wrote:"The Burner spirit means a synthesis between restraint and freedom, between voluntary subordination and conscientious leadership, between pride in oneself and consideration for others, between rigor and compassion. Unless a balance is kept between these qualities, the Burner spirit is in danger of degenerating into soulless routine and narrow-minded dogmatism"

That sounds a lot like religion! You. Are. So. Right! Balance is the key.