If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Ladies and Gentlemen, boy and girls, tonights matchup is one of the most talked about and contraversal subjects in all the world!!

We have a classic bout prepared for you and it will be an ongoing event for the ages!

In the BLUE corner, we have the highly popular and supernatural, "Creation"

In the Green corner, we have the metamorphic theory which to be known as, "Evolution"

Let us keep this fight clean, no hitting below the belt "cough" TunerAddict enough with the name calling, there is really no need to being calling a person stupid and etc. for having an opposing belief or view!

Ok in all seriousness, the subject of "religion" is extremely complicated (obviously.)

I will give some of my own input...

Originally Posted by rady

@Akamu
I've watched those clips and they seemed pretty weak, nothing convincing. However, religion is as someone mentioned some time ago here, just a matter of belief. It's really your choice if you're into it or not. I have read the bible, trust me, many times, as i too was a convinced christian some time back, and the reasons i stopped caring are strictly personal, zeitgeist was just something to strengthen my feelings, not the cause.

As far as the bible goes, i do agree with TunnerAddict. It's well know the fact that the bible is just borrowed elements and plagiarism. It can easily be interpreted and it always was. For me, the bible is just a tool to serve the interests of the masters of the world. So many crimes have been made in the name of God (crusades, inquisition) and yet the church has given no apology for that..

Yeah, it is a matter of belief, that is why I said for anyone who may read this thread to do their own research on the subject, see the different views, beliefs, religions, and all that and come up with their own conclusion on what they may think is true or not.

Why did you stop caring, if you do not mind sharing?

The zeitgeist "movie" is not entirely true, some things from it can be made credible but I wouldn't say it's 100&#37; accurate.

To my knowledge and what I believe is that, the Bible is the word of God, what I have read seems to be very credible, makes sense and can be adapted to this present day.
I agree that there IS masters of this world as you call them, but the Bible is certainly NOT a tool used by them, they have other interests and beliefs that STRONGLY differ from what the Bible says.

Originally Posted by TunerAddict

Exactly. Science has evidence, things that support it. Religion does not. I notice my evidence of evolution was never challenged by you nuts and simply ignored because you couldn't refute.

But LJ makes one of the greatest points. Everyone else is wrong? How are you so sure you're right. I mean, there are countless branches of Christianity, countless religions beyond that, and you think that they are all wrong and you, the minority, are right? Damn...

There is a lot of evidence supporting religion aka "creation" theory in this debate, Since when was it not, are you smoking brother? In fact creation has more evidence proving it more credible then evolution.

Let me see your "evidence of evolution."

All and all, there are many similarities between most if not all of the religions floating around, that is why I keep an open mind on this subject. Make no mistake though, I do believe there is a higher divine spirit out there. I will just call this spirit or supernatural presence "God" and as of now I consider myself to be Christian, as I have been for many years, but again I may be skeptical on the whole subject but I keep my faith.

Oh, and when saying we should not kill, steal, etc..., why did your God order his disciples to kill? Why did he kill? Why do people kill in his name and justify it by the bible?

One thing I'd like to point out is the idiocy of the bible when compared to modern knowledge. There are 10 million DIFFERENT species on earth. So Noah took 20 million creatures and fed them for 40 days on his ark. Really? And I am unreasonable?

You like to freely use the word evolution so much, look at it this way, two of the same bird could have helped evolve different species of birds.

An answer to The "Noahs Ark Story" How did the flood occur and how did the animals get to the Ark?

If God is really God, he could have caused the flood, a supernatural event, to occur. Does it not also make sense that God could cause pairs of animals to migrate to the location of the ark? Notice the phrase in Genesis chapter 6, verse 20: "two of every kind will come to you." Also, Genesis chapter 7, verse 9 states the animals "went into the ark to Noah." The answer is simple, Noah did not go and get the animals, God did.

“the fountains of the great deep” and “the windows of heaven.” Science has discovered large underwater springs, so it is easy to imagine “fountains of the great deep” being opened by God, allowing the pressurized water to contribute to the flood. It has also been proposed that the Earth used to have much denser clouds than it has now. Such a “canopy” would create a greenhouse effect, making the climate of the entire world very temperate. Fossil finds indicate that not just the dinosaurs, but all animals, plants, and insects were much larger at one time—indicating a superior climate. At the time of the flood, it would have been easy for God to allow this canopy (or a large percentage of it) to fall as water. If almost everything fell at once, it would not have been like rain, it would have been like opening “the windows of heaven.” The crushing splash of water would have quickly drowned all people and animals that found themselves suddenly and unexpectedly immersed in water.

Submarine Volcanic Ecosystems: (under water springs)[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]How did all those animals fit on the ark?

First, you should notice that different “kinds” of animals were brought onto the ark (Gen 6:20). Unlike the more recently introduced terms “genus,” “species,” and so forth, the Bible’s “kinds” can be thought of as what the “average person” would call an animal. For example, there may be many species of doves, but they are all still doves. Therefore, doves would be a “kind” of animal (bird, actually). Scientists have calculated the average size of the different kinds of animals (except for dinosaurs). It comes out to be about the size of a sheep. Based on this, we believe that all the “kinds” of animals would have taken up about one-third (1/3) of the room on the ark. That would leave plenty of room for Noah’s family and a year’s supply of food.

What about dinosaurs, were they on the ark and could they fit?

We believe dinosaurs were on the ark. The solution to getting the large ones on the ark is in using young dinosaurs. They take up less room, they eat less, and they have more of their reproductive life left for restarting the population.

Actually, nothing can be proved or dispproved. Its impossible to "prove" anything.

Plus, we are still evolving. Your an idiot. You don't understand what evolution is. Why do you think there are so many people today with poor eyesight, or genetic disorders that live. This is evolution, or de-evolution. We have used science to allow those who would not live in nature to live now. Mankind is becoming weaker. That is evolution.

Plus, wouldn't Christianity be wrong? I mean, Mohammed came along and was the next step. So aren't you all like you see the Jews, ones who are living in the past?

I said I would not address you again, because you are still not rationally conversing here and everyone else is. But it is killing me that you have not even tried to dispute the things the bible presents. You keep saying that nothing can be proved when I have laid examples of how true the bible has been. You cannot logically disprove anything that has been presented from the bible.

Is the earth not a sphere that hangs on nothing? How in the world would Isaiah and Job know these things in their time for sure if not for guidance from a higher being? GUESSING? Did they have telescopes like we do? HOW COULD THEY KNOW THIS?????!!! How could the bible writer predict the name of a ruler who did not exist during the time of writing, What he would do, exactly how it would happen, and also foretell the annihilation of a once prominent society in Babylon DOWN TO OUR VERY DAY, if not for divine intervention? Can Babylon be inhabited today? Can people live there? NO! Have you seen the ruins of ancient babylon? THE PLACE IS DESOLATED! It is a desert.. Cannot be inhabited. And the fact that rulers after the destruction of it, namely Alexander the great tried to make it a place of prominence and failed shows that God cannot lie. WHAT HE SAYS WILL HAPPEN, HAPPENS!

Are you familiar with the destruction o the jews in 70 ce? Probably not, world history does not appear to be a strength of yours. I'll briefly enlighten you.

The Destruction of Jerusalem

Jesus was Jehovah’s greatest Prophet. First, note what he said would happen to Jerusalem: “Your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.” (Luke 19:43, 44) Jesus also said: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.”—Luke 21:20, 21.

True to the prophecy, Roman armies under Cestius Gallus came against Jerusalem in 66 C.E. Strangely, however, he did not press the siege to its completion, but, as the first-century historian Flavius Josephus reported: “He retired from the city, without any reason in the world.”10 With the siege unexpectedly lifted, opportunity was afforded to heed Jesus’ instruction to flee Jerusalem. The historian Eusebius reported that it was the Christians who fled.

Less than four years later, in 70 C.E., Roman armies under General Titus returned and encircled Jerusalem. They cut down trees for miles around and built a city-encircling wall, “a fortification with pointed stakes.” As a result, Josephus observed: “All hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews.” Josephus noted that after a siege of about five months, aside from three towers and a portion of a wall, what was left “was so thoroughly laid even with the ground . . . that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited.”

About 1,100,000 died during the siege, and 97,000 were taken captive. To this day a testimony to the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy can be seen in Rome. There the Arch of Titus stands, erected by the Romans in 81 C.E. to commemorate the successful capture of Jerusalem. That arch remains a silent reminder to the fact that failure to heed the warnings in Bible prophecy can lead to disaster.

Now, you scoffed at the Medes and Perisians happening. A fairy tale you called , even though fairy tales don't REALLY HAPPEN. You scoffed at the destruction of Babylon, even though the Ruler who destroyed it was named 200 years before it happened, how it would exactly happened was told and the fact that it is a desolate ruin as we currently speak. JUST LIKE THE BIBLE SAID IT WOULD BE. Let's see how you can scoff at the arch of titus that actually exists today which lends proof to further prophecy of the bible.

I mean look what we have.. scientific facts known long before our genius scientific society actually got to know for sure these things are factual.

We have prophecies that are fulfilled with astounding accuracy and proof that they happened in the very history books mankind loves to rely on.

Yet you cling to theories and non proof and everyone else is the Idiot?

The bible has not been wrong yet, yet those who believe in it are stupid? Where as Scientists cannot agree on how evolution happened, or if it's even feasible, they change beliefs as the wind blows, yet, this is what is fact? Yikes.

After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Which tribe should attack the Canaanites first?" The LORD answered, "Judah, for I have given them victory over the land." The leaders of Judah said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, "Join with us to fight against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we will help you conquer your territory." So the men of Simeon went with Judah. When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek. While at Bezek they encountered King Adoni-bezek and fought against him, and the Canaanites and Perizzites were defeated. Adoni-bezek escaped, but the Israelites soon captured him and cut off his thumbs and big toes. Adoni-bezek said, "I once had seventy kings with thumbs and big toes cut off, eating scraps from under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them." They took him to Jerusalem, and he died there. The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it, killing all its people and setting the city on fire. (Judges 1:1-8 NLT)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Then Zimri, who commanded half of the royal chariots, made plans to kill him. One day in Tirzah, Elah was getting drunk at the home of Arza, the supervisor of the palace. Zimri walked in and struck him down and killed him. This happened in the twenty-seventh year of King Asa's reign in Judah. Then Zimri became the next king. Zimri immediately killed the entire royal family of Baasha, and he did not leave a single male child. He even destroyed distant relatives and friends. So Zimri destroyed the dynasty of Baasha as the LORD had promised through the prophet Jehu. This happened because of the sins of Baasha and his son Elah and because of all the sins they led Israel to commit, arousing the anger of the LORD, the God of Israel, with their idols. (1 Kings 16:9-13 NLT)

Here is a hypothetical, and very possible future that the human race could evolve into. Currently we are putting chemicals into the atmosphere that are destroying the ozone layer. Caucasions have been affected by skin cancer beacuse this protective layer is being destroyed. Caucasions have less melanin in their skin because they evolved in the northern hemisphere, in Europe, where the solar radiation was less. People of color have more melanin in their skin because they evolved in areas with more solar radiation. The more melanin, the more protection from solar radiation. So, if we continue to destroy the ozone layer and caucasions conitinue to die from skin cancer due to the lack of melanin in their skin, than over a process of 10,000 years wouldn't you expect their to be more people with high levels of melanin than people with low levels of melanin.

That would not really be evolution, that would happen due to the fact that we destroyed the ozone layer and it killed off a race due to our mistreating the protective ozone layer. Plus that race would not evolve, it would die off. And to expect that there would be a people who'd have high levels of melanin in 10k years is kinda nuts in itself if things were to continue the way they are now. Think someone is not pushing that red button in a nuclear plant the way things continue? They say in some time Las Vegas can be under water? What's happening to the bees? Pretty soon, if things are not changed quickly, there will be 0 life on this planet. What's scienes plan? Do they have one? Are are they just guessing as usual?

If God wants us to worship him, why does he make it so convienent and easy to disprove his existence? There has been nothing said in support of the existence of God that is factual. It is all quotes from the Bible.

Everything that God does or allows is for a purpose. Clearly if killing is wrong in his eyes, and it is, the fact that he allowed it had to serve a greater purpose in the long run. That is what you should investigate more throughly my friend.

And as I have said, a TRUE christian will stick to the bibles views on love. And love does not involve killing. God says vengeance belongs to him, not us. So when he exacts it, there is a reason for it. But it is left for him, not us.

And also, believe this if you dont believe anything else.. there is a such thing as false religion. Not every religion claiming to be backed by God is truly backed by him. BUT THE ONES DOING THE WILL OF JEHOVAH are backed by him. And you can clearly see they are different than any other religion in the world.

That would not really be evolution, that would happen due to the fact that we destroyed the ozone layer and it killed off a race due to our mistreating the protective ozone layer. Plus that race would not evolve, it would die off. And to expect that there would be a people who'd have high levels of melanin in 10k years is kinda nuts in itself if things were to continue the way they are now. Think someone is not pushing that red button in a nuclear plant the way things continue? They say in some time Las Vegas can be under water? What's happening to the bees? Pretty soon, if things are not changed quickly, there will be 0 life on this planet. What's scienes plan? Do they have one? Are are they just guessing as usual?

That is the exact process of evolution. A species genetically adapting to the changing environment. Why is it nuts to think people with high levels of melanin will produce more offspring and therefore change the genetic makeup of the human species? Seems completely logical to me.

If God wants us to worship him, why does he make it so convienent and easy to disprove his existence? There has been nothing said in support of the existence of God that is factual. It is all quotes from the Bible.

But how can the bible be right about all the things it speaks of if not backed by a higher source? Guessing? How would these writers know these things would happen? Explain?

Everything that God does or allows is for a purpose. Clearly if killing is wrong in his eyes, and it is, the fact that he allowed it had to serve a greater purpose in the long run. That is what you should investigate more throughly my friend.

And as I have said, a TRUE christian will stick to the bibles views on love. And love does not involve killing. God says vengeance belongs to him, not us. So when he exacts it, there is a reason for it. But it is left for him, not us.

And also, believe this if you dont believe anything else.. there is a such thing as false religion. Not every religion claiming to be backed by God is truly backed by him. BUT THE ONES DOING THE WILL OF JEHOVAH are backed by him. And you can clearly see they are different than any other religion in the world.

Why do you worship such a being? A vengeful, violent being that punishes us simply because he wants to. Oh wait, isn't he suppose to love us? Very confusing.

That is the exact process of evolution. A species genetically adapting to the changing environment. Why is it nuts to think people with high levels of melanin will produce more offspring and therefore change the genetic makeup of the human species? Seems completely logical to me.

But you said caucasions are dying. That means ceasing to exist. not becoming something else, while still existing.

This is the same God that promises everlasting life in paradise. And has proven it can be done by the accounts in the bible (resurrections, healing, other miracles)

Again, read those accounts better and you may understand better why they happened.

So, you worship him for the promise of everlasting life in paradise? That means that people that don't worship him will not receive everlasting life in paradise? So, about 75% of the world's population will suffer in hell? Again, an egotistical, venegful God. I choose not to give my worship to such a being.

What about Nostradamus? He has predicted many things to come true as well. Should we worship Nostradamus?

Whats the ratio of Nastrodamus being right? Has he ever been wrong? History channel did a show on him, his wrong rate was a lot higher than his right rate, and still alot of what they think is right is still on relatively right, not actually dead on.

What bible prophecy have I presented so far thats been even the slightest bit off? Has ANY bible prophecy been wrong?

I'll take my chances any day with the one who is 100 for 100. You do as you wish.