Quote:So, persons (A) & (D)are having an argument, person (A) is becoming very heated in defence of their viewpoint, swearing a lot, insulting person (D's) family etc. I'm sure you know the situation. Person (D) becomes concerned for their safety, but person (A) has given few physical indications of violence other than waving their hands around a lot like a windmill. (Cut off some peoples arms and they can't talk, I'm sure you know what I mean). Now, how can you restrain person (A) if they haven't given you a physical opportunity to do so? IE, they haven't gone to punch you or to kick you.

MC.

Physically their are many techniques available to "tie someone up" without them offering a limb etc, as a bouncer (many moons ago) i did it regularly. if a limb isn't offered you take it.

But, i don't think you mean how in terms of the physical techniques. To justify (person D) restraining them (person A) without a physical attack being launched by "A" (actually this goes for any preemptive move) Person D must have a HONEST BELIEF that it is REASONABLE to assume that physical harm is likely to occur (to person D) if person A is allowed to continue is current course of action.

EG. "D" has tried to deescalate the situation, "D" has tried to remove themselves from the situation but for whatever reason hase not been able to., Person A's level of aggression continues to rise and it is reasonable to assume that "A" will continue to escalate to violence (it doesn't matter how "D" judges this likelihood, what is important is that "D" has an honest and reasonable belief that this will happen)

This is where you'll hear the argument "but how can you really know", "You can't predict the future" etc. The thing is virtually all victims of violent crimes have said that they felt something was wrong.

Intuition, gut feeling, 6th sense or your subconscious picking up on small clues given off by your opponent that Our conscious mind doesn't pick up. however you explain it, it is our inbuilt, instinctual early warning system.

it's important to note that this "honest reasonable belief" is the reason to pre-empt not an excuse to preempt. We can't go around punching out everyone claiming it to be preemptive in self defence. You must honestly believe it is a necessary action and legally (in most places) it must be considered to be a reasonable assumption that violence will occur to the defender (preemptive striker etc), given the situation and the likely belief of the defender.

Reasonable is usually defined as "what a member of the community of sound mind would consider to be reasonable given the situation, (location, actions of the other party etc) and likely state of mind of the defender"

When it comes down to it, No-one can tell anyone else to preemptively act, hell no-one can tell you to defend yourself it is a decision that you must make for yourself. I do recommend however that you decide what you are willing to do prior to any situation occurring. In the heat of the moment is not the time to be thinking "am i willing to preempt or not". In the heat of the moment is not the time to think about anything except for the situation.

Predetermine your Lines, Ie where do you draw the line for your own actions and define the line they must cross, what are you are willing to put up with before physical retaliation. Having a pre determined set of lines Or guides will enable you to focus on the task at hand ie making sure you eat dinner at home tonight with a knife and fork.

Be honest with your own abilities when drawing these lines. it's no good saying that I'll wait for this if your abilities can't handle the steps or level before it.

It may not be what many of us consider the ideal, but Midnightcrawler has drawn a line, at least he doesn't have to think about whether to preempt or not, he can concentrate purely not getting hit.