Book ChatLand of Lincoln: Adventures in Abe's America
by
Andrew Ferguson

This chat took place in the Civil War Home
Chatroom on 07/13/08 and covered Chapters 7 & 8.

7/13/2008 9:24 pm (et) Basecat:
Welcome to the Sunday night Book Chat. Tonight we will be discussing Chapters 7 & 8 of Andrew Ferguson's book Land Of Lincoln- Adventures In Abe's America Apologies to all for the late start but we had a glitch with the room that Pat repaired. Chapter Seven, entitled Abe Lincoln and the Secret of Success looks at how Abe is used in today's business world. Will start by saying, much like the author, workshops were not my fave things to attend either. :)

7/13/2008 9:25 pm (et) Babs:
They make my skin crawl.

7/13/2008 9:26 pm (et) mobile_96:
Felt the same about Workshops, sure glad I don't have to see them again.

7/13/2008 9:26 pm (et) Basecat:
Babs...and the way he described members of his "team" just reminded me of some members of my "team" I had to sit at a table when attending them.:)

7/13/2008 9:27 pm (et) Babs:
Just one more year and I am through with them.

7/13/2008 9:27 pm (et) cwbksell:
I'm glad someone fixed what had to be repaired. The only thing I was able o do last week was to log on. None of my comments went through. I'll need to make up for lost time, but I won't say any more about chapter 10. :o)

7/13/2008 9:27 pm (et) mobile_96:
Base, recognized a few of those people myself

7/13/2008 9:27 pm (et) ks:
Oh, he captured the ambiance of a workshop, for sure. I, too, could imagine some of those descriptions fitting attendees I've been with at past events.

7/13/2008 9:27 pm (et) Babs:
I would be like the guys at the table pulling out a newspaper.

7/13/2008 9:28 pm (et) Basecat:
Just wondering how would folks answer the question posed by Flattop's 10 year old?? Interested to see your thoughts on that, and to me it is not a difficult question to answer.

7/13/2008 9:28 pm (et) alanhi:
Sentenced to Death by Powerpoint" is a phrase we use.

7/13/2008 9:29 pm (et) Susansweet:
I could even name some of the people that I fit those descriptions at workshops I attended.

7/13/2008 9:29 pm (et) ks:
I have a question, and pardon me if it be ignorant. Why is there a statue of Perry Como at Gettysburg? Or is it just a generic that looks like Perry? And why don't I remember it AT ALL???

7/13/2008 9:29 pm (et) Babs:
Most of the trouble I have eer gotten into at work is for my behavior during or absence from professional development.

7/13/2008 9:30 pm (et) Basecat:
Pat...The statue does look like Perry and Abe...and has been moved due to the construction going on at the House on the square.

7/13/2008 9:30 pm (et) Babs:
It's a generic that looks like Perry.

7/13/2008 9:30 pm (et) alanhi:
The question about why the states couldn't secede?

7/13/2008 9:30 pm (et) Babs:
Now it looks like Abe is greeting Perry as he just came out of the port-a-john on the site.

7/13/2008 9:32 pm (et) alanhi:
Nothing I recall in Constitution about seceding -- only about suspending writ of habeus corpus in times of insurrection.

7/13/2008 9:32 pm (et) cwbksell:
Well, ks, it's like this. Perry Como was a very popular singer a few years back and these politically correct people who run the museums and etc want more people to feel good about history, so they connect it with a popular figure to get the attention of a greater number of the public.

7/13/2008 9:32 pm (et) Babs:
KS, There is a pix of it at the beginning of chap 7.

7/13/2008 9:35 pm (et) ks:
Isn't it often stated that the outcome of the war "decided" the question of whether it was okay or not?

7/13/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet:
The South tried to leave and fought another war, that they lost.

7/13/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet:
True Ks. if we had lost the Revolution we would still be speaking English.

7/13/2008 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet:
oops I mean still be part of England.

7/13/2008 9:36 pm (et) Basecat:
My answer would be Son, the difference between declaring our independence from England was based on Freedom. Our Declaration of Independence proclaimed that all men are created equal, and should all be free. Those in the South's Leadership, denied freedom to the slaves they owned...and while they continued to cite the Constitution and The Declaration...they did not look at the slave and his family as people. There in lies the difference IMHO.

7/13/2008 9:36 pm (et) alanhi:
James Otis argued that England (Parliament) had broken it contract with the States so they had a right to rebel. The South rebelled, breaking the Constitution when it was still valid.

7/13/2008 9:36 pm (et) ks:
LOL. I was about to say to you, Susan..."we'd be speaking English as opposed to what??" ;) ;)

7/13/2008 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet:
I live in California remember . Spanish is all around.

7/13/2008 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet:
Steve I think your answer is a good one but Flattop would never have thought of that answer

7/13/2008 9:40 pm (et) mobile_96:
Why would they want to change to German when their natural language was English.

7/13/2008 9:40 pm (et) ks:
Thought the workshops with Lincoln as a leadership model were yet another example of people using Lincoln for whatever they want to get across...or choosing whatever parts of the Lincoln story for that effort.

7/13/2008 9:40 pm (et) Basecat:
Here's a link to the statue in the square... http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/tours/gettytourist.htm

7/13/2008 9:43 pm (et) alanhi:
Easy way to trivialize a man, make a statue people can ot bunnies ears on.

7/13/2008 9:44 pm (et) Basecat:
Just outside the Wills House you can see a highly realistic image of President Lincoln greeting a modern-day visitor. This life-size bronze statue, called the "Return Visit," is the work of J. Seward Johnson, Jr. The Lincoln Fellowship of Pennsylvania placed it here in 1991.It depicts Lincoln pointing to the house, as if he is explaining where he completed his Gettysburg Address. On the night Lincoln stayed here, a New York Tribune reporter wrote, "After supper the President was serenaded by the excellent band of the 5th New-York Artillery. After repeated calls, Mr. Lincoln at length presented himself, when he was loudly cheered." Lincoln, however, wisely declined to make a speech.

7/13/2008 9:46 pm (et) Basecat:
To me..the oddest statue I have seen of Abe...

7/13/2008 9:46 pm (et) Basecat:
Tend to think the sculptor wanted to show Abe's links to the common man as well.

7/13/2008 9:46 pm (et) Babs:
First time I saw it, I wondered how they got the sweater on it.

7/13/2008 9:48 pm (et) Basecat:
Babs...Interesting to denote what Antigoni said when the question was asked..."We are not here to refight the CW"...and yet folks are attending a business workshop based on the thoughts and writings of Abe.

7/13/2008 9:49 pm (et) Babs:
I think that was her was of avoiding the question and steering back to the power points.

7/13/2008 9:49 pm (et) Basecat:
Hard for me to get the US as a company as well..

7/13/2008 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet:
Yeah we are just ripping Lincoln's sayings off to make money by putting on a workshop.

7/13/2008 9:50 pm (et) cwbksell:
I tell you it has to do with winning the public. I visited the Chicago Historical Society museum a number of years ago and saw the bed where Lincoln died, the table where the peace terms were drawn up at Appomattox, and the front door to Libby Prison & etc. I could not believe when I read in the book that those things are now in storage and in their place is a display of teenagers in the 70's.

7/13/2008 9:51 pm (et) alanhi:
Lincoln's entire administration was as a war president -- trivializes what war is.

7/13/2008 9:51 pm (et) Basecat:
Babs..Of course it was...and understand why she did that, but using Abe as a "guide" to business in the 21st Century is akin to those god forsaken ghosts walks that occur in Gettysburg every day.

7/13/2008 9:52 pm (et) Susansweet:
Using Abe in advertisement is the same thing too.

7/13/2008 9:52 pm (et) Babs:
Basecat, I agree. When I got home from Gettysburg the other day, the first thing someone asked me was if I had seen a ghost.

7/13/2008 9:53 pm (et) Basecat:
Susan...Exactly...Check out NBC Sports updates every weekend...sponsored by the Lincoln Financial Group whose logo is a side view of Abe.

7/13/2008 9:53 pm (et) cwbksell:
It's not just Lincoln they use for these workshops. They use Lee and Grant as well.

7/13/2008 9:54 pm (et) Basecat:
cwbksell..Very good point...IIRC An author Kallman has written books on how to use Lee and Grant in today's business world.

7/13/2008 9:55 pm (et) Basecat:
alanhi...Ghost walks are all over the place in Gettysburg today...and attract many tourists for these so called "tours".

7/13/2008 9:55 pm (et) Babs:
alanhi, Yes, I believe the burg recently passed an ordinance restricting the number of ghost tours because they are a traffic hazzard.

7/13/2008 9:55 pm (et) Babs:
I respect them a bit less than Basecat.

7/13/2008 9:56 pm (et) alanhi:
Drivers probably gawking at the spirits rising from their graves like out of Ghostbusters ;-)

7/13/2008 9:57 pm (et) cwbksell:
You are right Basecat, but his name is Al Kaltman and the title of the Lee book is "The Genius of Robert E. Lee: Leadership Lessons for the Outgunned, Outnumbered and Underfinanced." I have signed copies in stock. :o)

7/13/2008 10:03 pm (et) cwbksell:
I'd like to mention I have Carnagie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People." It sets on the shelf right next to Irving Tressler's book "How to Lose Friends and Alienate People." A couple of winners wouldn't you say? :o)

7/13/2008 10:03 pm (et) Susansweet:
Fits with Barnum.

7/13/2008 10:04 pm (et) alanhi:
He ended the chapter fairly leniently though on the process.

7/13/2008 10:05 pm (et) Basecat:
Let's move on to Chapter 8... Hot On The Trail which I liked because IIRC, some folks in here stopped by the museum of funeral customs. Those who stopped there...your thoughts on how Ferguson described it?

7/13/2008 10:06 pm (et) ks:
He described it very well. Loved that he included the chocolate coffins. I don't understand the rest of the family getting sick, though. Nothing nauseating to me there. I found it fascinating. :) :)

7/13/2008 10:07 pm (et) mobile_96:
Agree with nothing nauseating, but thought his, and his family's reaction, was over the top.

7/13/2008 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet:
Looking forward to the visit.

7/13/2008 10:08 pm (et) Basecat:
Found myself shaking my head that several boxes of said chocolate coffins were bought for a wedding...Cracked me up.:)

7/13/2008 10:08 pm (et) cwbksell:
The chocolate coffins are there to make you feel good about what you are looking at.

7/13/2008 10:09 pm (et) mobile_96:
Base. fits the theory that its a wedding for the wife, and funeral for the guy

7/13/2008 10:09 pm (et) ks:
What I found MOST interesting in this chapter was Ferguson realizing that he was dragging his family around to the sites of where buildings USED to be...taking them to see things that weren't there any longer. As he became rather horrified to realize what he was doing, I found myself thinking "What's wrong with that? I'd love to know where the Globe Tavern used to stand. All those places sound interesting to me. What's wrong with that? Am I sick, or what?" :)

7/13/2008 10:10 pm (et) Basecat:
Judging from what folks have posted in here, and from the reading tonight, it sounds like a fascinating place. Found it funny as well...Location, location, location..:)

7/13/2008 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet:
Ks I would be following right behind you

7/13/2008 10:11 pm (et) ks:
Have you seen the chocolate coffins, cwbsell?? I didn't think they were there to make anyone feel good about anything other than the taste of chocolate. Okay, they were pretty amusing.

7/13/2008 10:11 pm (et) mobile_96:
Don't think so KS, can't see the sites, but can still help get a feel for Where those famous sites sit, in relation to other visible places.

7/13/2008 10:12 pm (et) ks:
If one has any sense of imagination, that kind of tour can be fascinating.

7/13/2008 10:12 pm (et) Basecat:
Pat...I agree...he was trying to share stuff from his visit back in the 1960s and as you said his realization that an empty lot could not impress his kids. Am not a parent here, but also found it interesting that Dad had to bribe kids with moderns attractions
to get them to go on the trip.

7/13/2008 10:12 pm (et) ole:
And on this site -- maybe closer to the corner -- was a boutique.

7/13/2008 10:12 pm (et) ks:
mobile, I knew *I* wasn't sick. ;) I thought Ferguson was wimpish and sold out too easily. :) He was hanging with the wrong crowd.

7/13/2008 10:13 pm (et) mobile_96:
Yea, his family, who had to be Bribed to make the trip.

7/13/2008 10:13 pm (et) Babs:
Ole, I believe that was the tour Mary and Terri were leading.

7/13/2008 10:14 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
If the tour Ferguson took his family on wasn't interesting to them, it might have been his responsibility to make it interesting.

7/13/2008 10:14 pm (et) mobile_96:
He should have waited and gone with us.

7/13/2008 10:14 pm (et) cwbksell:
I agree with you Basecat. Showing teenagers where something used to be is not very impressive.

7/13/2008 10:14 pm (et) ks:
Now that didn't surprise me (about bribing the kids with other sites in order to get them to go). Have done something like that when traveling with the kids in years past. The year we did the Manassas Muster, Gettysburg, Pamplin Park, etc., you can bet that there were a lot of other attractions along the way that kept BJ and the 3 kids happy.

7/13/2008 10:15 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
That's what Mary and Terri did as they made up an interesting tour of places that never were and people that never existed.

7/13/2008 10:15 pm (et) Susansweet:
Exactly Mobile. and by the way my Dad was always taking us to see places that had been there and telling us stories about when he worked there or was there in the 30's or 40's.

7/13/2008 10:15 pm (et) mobile_96:
Expect he was trying to Dave, but can be difficult for people not interested in History to start with, to try and visualize something they know nothing about.

7/13/2008 10:15 pm (et) ole:
Mary and Terri aren't anymore interested in a boutique that isn't there than anyone
else.

7/13/2008 10:16 pm (et) mobile_96:
All that said, did get a kick out of his kids comments about the postbox and the window.

7/13/2008 10:16 pm (et) Babs:
Ole, True but they were making stuff up.

7/13/2008 10:16 pm (et) Basecat:
cwbksell...Just to put it into perspective...Have been with a lot of folks who were making their first visit to Gettysburg, and showed them where Buford's HQ was on Day one.. Tried to make them imagine the hotel that stood there back in 1863, and all they could see was today it is a 7-11.:)

7/13/2008 10:18 pm (et) Basecat:
Know some of you stopped at New Salem as well, and would like to read your comments about Ferguson's take on it as well.

7/13/2008 10:19 pm (et) Susansweet:
I think we are use to imagining because we do it on Battlefields so many times

7/13/2008 10:20 pm (et) Basecat:
Susan..very true...and plus for the most part, we know what a place looked like during the events that took place there during the war.

7/13/2008 10:20 pm (et) mobile_96:
Not sure where he got his opinions on how history is being portrayed there.

7/13/2008 10:20 pm (et) Babs:
Watch it Ole! You may be outnumbered.

7/13/2008 10:20 pm (et) ks:
I was just typing that very question with regard to the New Salem comments by the author. I was very surprised to see it described as "early twentieth-century
bourgeois propaganda"!

7/13/2008 10:22 pm (et) ole:
I'd have to take exception to that. Of couse it's a recreation, but I never had trouble imagining that it was 1840 or whatever whenever wandering that road.

7/13/2008 10:22 pm (et) Basecat:
Pat...New Salem stuff bothered me..not the fact that it was rebuilt, but shows the pain in the ass know it alls who would rather rip a place than say what the good of rebuilding the place means.

7/13/2008 10:22 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
He got out of his Salem tour exactly what he expected (or hoped) to.

7/13/2008 10:23 pm (et) Susansweet:
I went to New Salem as a child . To me it was a wonderful place where I connected with a young Lincoln., It fit right in with the books I had read in school about his early days. Still a magical memory from my visit

7/13/2008 10:24 pm (et) ks:
I was amazed to read that about the oil companies and the Lincoln Trail. Once again, you can use Lincoln to sell anything.

7/13/2008 10:24 pm (et) Susansweet:
I did laugh about the Lincoln Trail being to sell gas.

7/13/2008 10:24 pm (et) Babs:
That seems to be the recurring theme of this book--- that all things Lincoln were done to make money, not to honor or educate.

7/13/2008 10:25 pm (et) Basecat:
Just me , but was kinda surprised that when Ferguson found an old marker from the trail, he did not mention if he saved it or not.

7/13/2008 10:25 pm (et) mobile_96:
Know I would have kept it.

7/13/2008 10:26 pm (et) Susansweet:
I would have put it in the Drum Barracks

7/13/2008 10:26 pm (et) Basecat:
Babs...You make a very good point. Surely looks that way.

7/13/2008 10:30 pm (et) Basecat:
Interesting to read as well that the trail featured a lot of stops that had nothing to do with Abe. Wondering if anyone in here did the same trip as the author did.

7/13/2008 10:30 pm (et) Susansweet:
I liked when he said that they were used into an orientation video . Keeping with theassumption that no historical site can be enjoyed by people who haven't seen a video of what they are about to enjoy .

7/13/2008 10:30 pm (et) Susansweet:
Too far east for me as a child.

7/13/2008 10:31 pm (et) ks:
Was very glad to be able to visit New Salem in 2006. When we were in Springfield in...2000? and I wanted to proceed to New Salem, the docent at Oakridge Cemetery said to my husband and kids, "If you've seen one reconstructed village, you've seen them all." He told us not to bother, that we'd better spend out time eating up the road heading towards Manassas. :(

7/13/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet:
We only made it past Oklahoma twice on family trips when I was growing up

7/13/2008 10:37 pm (et) ole:
Oh. In that case, I'll run right out and buy it.

7/13/2008 10:37 pm (et) cwbksell:
And she is in the last two chapters of this book. :o)

7/13/2008 10:37 pm (et) Babs:
Then you can do a book report for the rest of us.

7/13/2008 10:38 pm (et) Susansweet:
Ida Minerva Tarbell

7/13/2008 10:38 pm (et) ole:
From what I've heard, ks, I'd not like it an would therefore be wasting my time reading it instead of Cooper's "Jefferson Davis; American."

7/13/2008 10:38 pm (et) Basecat:
Hope you all have enjoyed reading this book as much as I have. As mentioned earlier, we will finish the chat on it next Sunday. I thank all for the participation. Great chat. :)