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The purpose of this thread is to allow free discussion of theories and speculation of the Macross Delta anime series, but be warned since it may contain unmarked spoilers. Having a central location may help focus the discussion instead of spreading speculation over the various episode discussion threads.

For me, the entire grievance Windermere has so far somehow does not feel right, at least for what they state. "Unfair trade agreements" is not exactly a reason to declare war on the rest of the galaxy. I'm more sympathetic about their initial rebellion, though.

My guess is still that the protoculture barrier shield they activated during the rebellion is draining the energy from their planet (there have been similar superweapons in other media, like for example the Jedi Knight story if Star Wars The Old Republic) and they are doing a hail mary to get something to stop the decline of their race. And they probably are too prideful to ask for help from NUNS.

For me, the entire grievance Windermere has so far somehow does not feel right, at least for what they state. "Unfair trade agreements" is not exactly a reason to declare war on the rest of the galaxy.

All revolutions and wars of independence in the American continent were about unfair trade agreements (and taxes) dressed up as something grand to make the mob buy that (there were a few idealists like Roid, I guess, but most were just pragmatic people like Keith). So in a way, Kawamori is being actually realistic here, because what leads people to wage war are 99% related to the economic interest of the leading classes. Plus, any country or planet, engaged in an economic dependence of a potentially hostile and overbearing 'empire' would resent them deeply. Even those who give casual lipservice. Because they cannot actually grow as long as they exist as the monopoly of all things, you know? That includes culture which is hugely important in Macross. I'm fairly impressed that their reasons to go to war are fairly reasonable and their procedure is very based on real life tactics (including testing their new weapons before using them in open conflict: USA, France, Germany, etc all of them have done the same).

"Declaring war to the galaxy" is incorrect, imo. They are liberating the planets from the control of a handful people of Spacy, in their point of view. They just want to destroy the human monopoly of power, it seems. Again, it's fairly realistic. That two planets peacefully surrendered should alert the viewers that the Galaxy Government isn't something very well received. They declared war on a single entity, not the people of the galaxy, there is a difference.

__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"

International treaties (intergalactic, in this case) aren't just about trade. And the word that was translated as "profit" (利益) is broadly used to refer to all kinds of "benefits," not just those from trade.

Yeah, I highly doubt profit here has much to do with trade, but how the ruins of protoculture is being utilized. The unequal treaty here I suspect, is not about how many apples the Wind can export to the rest of the galaxy, but how the technology of protoculture is utilized & distributed. I suspect many personnel of the NUN are not paying heed to the Wind's brand of respect to protoculture legacies and discrete them in a way that the Wind finds offensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thess

That two planets peacefully surrendered should alert the viewers that the Galaxy Government isn't something very well received. They declared war on a single entity, not the people of the galaxy, there is a difference.

In the Macross-verse, and indeed in many sci-fi verse where FTL & space travel is common, controlling a planetary orbit usually means having the power to dictate life and death on the surface. The Wind did just that. There was no need for further resistance or bitter urban combat on the streets because all NUNs military had been subdued at that point.

This is true in Star Wars, Space Battleship Yamato and Warhammer 40k.

This does not necessarily mean the NUN is unpopular. Up until now, the NUN had maintain a very minor presence among affiliated colonies & planets. Indeed, the NUN is rather laissez faire to local entities.

International treaties (intergalactic, in this case) aren't just about trade. And the word that was translated as "profit" (利益) is broadly used to refer to all kinds of "benefits," not just those from trade.

Oh, I can totally see how the NUNS colony fleet might have treated the Windermerans as "savage natives", 19th century imperialism style, though I wonder how that will have gone, given the Windermerans obvious physical superiority. Not to mention that the Windermerans obviously got their own air force out of the deal.

However, that still doesn't excuse a terror campaign followed by a war of aggression seven years after pushing NUNS off the planet. And I don't believe that the Windermerans got radically different standards of morality, given how Freyja surely does seem horrified by the VAR attack on the civilian population of Al-Shahal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thess

All revolutions and wars of independence in the American continent were about unfair trade agreements (and taxes) dressed up as something grand to make the mob buy that (there were a few idealists like Roid, I guess, but most were just pragmatic people like Keith). So in a way, Kawamori is being actually realistic here, because what leads people to wage war are 99% related to the economic interest of the leading classes. Plus, any country or planet, engaged in an economic dependence of a potentially hostile and overbearing 'empire' would resent them deeply. Even those who give casual lipservice. Because they cannot actually grow as long as they exist as the monopoly of all things, you know? That includes culture which is hugely important in Macross. I'm fairly impressed that their reasons to go to war are fairly reasonable and their procedure is very based on real life tactics (including testing their new weapons before using them in open conflict: USA, France, Germany, etc all of them have done the same).

"Declaring war to the galaxy" is incorrect, imo. They are liberating the planets from the control of a handful people of Spacy, in their point of view. They just want to destroy the human monopoly of power, it seems. Again, it's fairly realistic. That two planets peacefully surrendered should alert the viewers that the Galaxy Government isn't something very well received. They declared war on a single entity, not the people of the galaxy, there is a difference.

See, the problem with the whole "cultural appropiation thing" is Ragna. The Ragnans seem to have fully integrated their culture with NUNS, without losing their individuality. This is of course only on the few things we have seen, but if there were a widespread dislike of NUNS for imposing their cultural norms on other cultures, it'd be nice if the show did demonstrate that outside of the Windermerans, who by all appearances have a gigantic chip on their shoulders, believing themselves to be the "true children of Protoculture".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tak

In the Macross-verse, and indeed in many sci-fi verse where FTL & space travel is common, controlling a planetary orbit usually means having the power to dictate life and death on the surface. The Wind did just that. There was no need for further resistance or bitter urban combat on the streets because all NUNs military had been subdued at that point.

This is true in Star Wars, Space Battleship Yamato and Warhammer 40k.

Yeah, having the power (and will) to declare Exterminatus on a planet is something which makes the local resistance think twice about what they are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tak

This does not necessarily mean the NUN is unpopular. Up until now, the NUN had maintain a very minor presence among affiliated colonies & planets. Indeed, the NUN is rather laissez faire to local entities. - Tak

Which is why I wonder where the show is going in that regard. Ragna and Al-Shahal both did not seem like NUNS was being heavy handed. So far it seems the Windermeran leadership only has a gigantic metal rod up their ass and wants to boss around everyone because they believe themselves to be the Chosen Ones.

Well I do wonder what the Megaroad wanted so badly, so they'll even trade advanced tech like that NOT!F104. Did they actually tried to colonize? I mean the place seems undeveloped, despite they have run the planet for decades.

Speaking of ruins, do others beside Windamere even knows about them? I got a impression that people dont? Otherwise it shoudlnt be very hard to guess how Windamere are connected to the Var when they figure the connection in ep5

Speaking of NUNS, like I said in other posts the NUNS doesnt really assert much control, as long as the fleets doesnt do stupid shit NUNS dont really care. Different fleet should have different policies. Some are a-hole, some aren't.

"Declaring war to the galaxy" is incorrect, imo. They are liberating the planets from the control of a handful people of Spacy, in their point of view. They just want to destroy the human monopoly of power, it seems. Again, it's fairly realistic. That two planets peacefully surrendered should alert the viewers that the Galaxy Government isn't something very well received. They declared war on a single entity, not the people of the galaxy, there is a difference.

It is the NUN or NUNG not Spacy or NUNS. NUNS is the military and Macross doesn't have a military government it would be affront to what Global wanted for humanity.

The UNG to the new UNG to the now NUNG are all civilian governments. The first one was the centralized government of Earth, the second was planets and fleet are semi-autonomous but still under Earth's central government, the last iteration since Earth can't govern due to far away these planets and fleets are they decentralized effectively making them sovereign states and now the NUN is a EU like organization with a parliament of member states. NUNS is space NATO.

So it is redundant to have a war of independence if you are already independent. Unless it is motivated by racism and they started attacking humans and Zentradi then the NUN has a right to protect those people. Since they can't win conventionally the Kingdom of Wind implemented a dimensional weapon. A weapon that most likely doomed their planet. Hoist by their own petard they seek to conquer the Brisingr cluster for their own people. The inhabitable planets are members of the NUN.

Mind you we aren't sure if the Megaroad actually settled Windermere. It could be similar to Zola where the planet was admitted to the nUNG by making a treaty. A small number of Earthers on the planet.

The revolution could be similar to the Iranian revolution.

edit: Some anon viewing 2ch which I'm assuming from the same anime magazine where we got info about Walkure and Mirage.

After using Google translate here is the gist of it.
Basically after the Unification War ex-Anti-UN researchers who scattered across the galaxy contributed to the Sv-262 Draken III. Their tech is better than United Forces and are complicit to what happened to Windermere.

From the Windermereians' point of view 40 years ago, before they encountered humanity, they did not think that their life spans were "short." However, out of nowhere, a race with advanced technology, as well as a long lifespan arrived onto Windermere. However, their physical abilities weren't high, and they did not possess "run." They must have had confusing and complex thoughts such as why did they (the Windermereians) have to die so quickly.

They're going to include new Walkure songs, about one per episode.
The speed of the era has gotten faster. (probably talking bout RL) In such an environment we're trying to constantly announce a wide-range of songs, as well as create a product that is not too caught up in one particular genre. The story-side of it is "We don't know what songs will work on the Varl, so will try many different songs."

They are apparently on the very edges of the galaxy, and would imply to have maintained a closely-knit network for a very long time.

Though this is pretty interesting, Wind are using basically human tech and receiving human help against the human NUN... gee, no complications there, I suppose. The Anti-UN are probably laughing their butt off right now for someone proclaiming themselves to be the true heirs of protoculture while getting assistance from the folks they are supposed to despise.

自分たちの寿命が短いとは思っていなか ったんです。

身体能力は高くないし、『ルン』も持っていない。この差は何なんだと。

Wind didn't think their lives were short lived until encountering humans, and is more than compensated by physical prowess. Though ... IMO, they are still nothing compared to the Zentradi. I wonder how they view those... green giants.

彼らは統合軍側よりも自分たちのほうが技術的に優れていたのではないかといまだに信じている。

A little correction here, the anti-UN believes their technology is better, but otherwise have nothing to back it up at this time. This is probably the reason why they are using Windermere as a testing bed for the results of their work.

Although it may be too soon, but I think this sheds light on the real big-bad.

Interesting, I didn't know that there was anti-UN force who survived space war I, maybe some of them are the true mastermind behind the winds conflict now.

All the way back in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, the Mars base garrison was, according to Global, destroyed by Anti-UN forces while traveling back to Earth. That must have happened close enough to the start of SDFM that Misa still has hope for Riber being alive.

I would imagine that when the Zentradi attacked, the remaining Anti-UN forces would have been smart enough to claim allegiance to and blend back in with the rest of humanity (or simply hid out on some isolated portion of the Solar system for a year), and then revived their separatist ways later. They should have been ecstatic about the Seeding Project; if they concealed themselves carefully, they could become a majority political force on a colonization ship and go somewhere were UN Spacy wouldn't have a good grip on them.

Interesting, I didn't know that there was anti-UN force who survived space war I, maybe some of them are the true mastermind behind the winds conflict now.

In 2007 the Anti-UN officially surrendered. What we saw in 2008 as per Macross Zero were hold outs. In 2009 they got blamed publicly for South Ataria by the UNG. Then the rain of death happened the organization is pretty much dead.

There have been various separatists groups tagged as anti-unification but none trace their lineage to the old Anti-UN Alliance.

From the images we got the predecessor of the Draken III was possibly not designated as a VF or YF but SV.

Anyway not the first time somebody escaped Earth's gaze and started providing tech upgrades to would be enemies.

In 2030 a bunch of rebel Zentradi left Earth after the failed rebellion on Macross City taking with them the VFX-11 and a fold booster escaping to the edge of the galaxy where they met with the 63254109th Zentradi Outer Space Army. Providing them the technology to develop stealth version of their Glaugs, Regults, Gnerl fighter pods, Quel-Quallie and Enemy Variable Device Pheyos. When that fleet was defeated in 2047 the Pheyos found its way to the Black Rainbow terrorist group.

Now you see why Earth doesn't like providing their most advanced tech to far off planets and fleets on the possibility of it being used against them.

My speculation that in the the deep planet Windermere lies ancient mind-control weapon develop by Proto-culture to control the zentradi army. However this weapon not only can mind control protoculture themselves but weapon become self aware and plan to mind control entire galaxy. However it being stop by Anima spiritia and sealed in the Windemere

1 episode of the battle in the Freya was fledgling is not Some people who have a sense of discomfort
That was because Windermere who are important to live every moment because life is short
Because you may feel uncomfortable to go to foreign countries , but it is in the habit of and rationality of Nari the country
I want to embody the kind of sense of discomfort

And countries not uncommon in the world that happens only in the culture of the current Japan is blessed with cultural are regulated
Freya is Macross in not went jumping from such country is aware of the microcosm sense of the real world

From the gist of it Windermere is pretty much like Japan that they regulate what culture they take in. They are a bit uncomfortable of going outside the box as they have short lives.

Shoji Kawamori
From the Windermereians' point of view 40 years ago, before they encountered humanity, they did not think that their life spans were "short." However, out of nowhere, a race with advanced technology, as well as a long lifespan arrived onto Windermere. However, their physical abilities weren't high, and they did not possess "run." They must have had confusing and complex thoughts such as why did they (the Windermereians) have to die so quickly.

Windermereans were once blissfully ignorant of the outside then comes in the humans who are physically weak but way more advanced than they are and longer lived. This is their Culture Shock not in a Zentradi sort of way as they have their own culture.

Freyja may be a country girl but she is willing to make that leap out of her comfort zone.

I think the higher ups in Windemere have at least enough intelligence to know about Zentraedi in detail. I can actually see Windemereans beating Zents, ton to ton (miclone vs miclone, maclone vs maclone).

But exactly this intelligence is why the higher ups are so fuckin' jelly on Humans.
Just think about it, how many absurd shit UN/NUN solved in just their 50-60 years? At this point the legendary Protoculture would begin to freak out. Especially them, given humanity conquered both their gods (Vajra) and devils (Protodevlin) and did this with the most ridiculously stacked odds against them.
If somebody would make a summary for the Protoculture their reaction would undoubtedly be along the lines of "you got to be kidding me!".

Windemereans being jelly of this is a matter of course. Also it seems from that description and comparison that Kawamori doesn't even attempt to hide that Windemereans are kinda a stand-in for WW2 Japan.
Well, he was one of the first guys who made the "good side" use nukes in a Japanese anime so that doesn't seem that much off the mark for Kawamori anyways.

Just a fridge thought, which probably will be answered later: Where is Heinz singing from? It's implied that he's inside that castle. The castle wasn't there when the Megaroad showed up. But smaller Protoculture relics are moveable.