The founder's insisted on Christianity as a foundation for governace, and God blessed them with his protections in establishing it. George Washington warned us that we'd lose it all if we turned away from God and what he warned about is coming true. It's been a good run in many ways, but anything good about America has but one person to thank and that is Jesus Christ, and the devout men that dedicated this land to his worship.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen, and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Keep in mind, that treaty was made within the lifetime of many, if not all of the founding fathers. If they wanted to object to the text, they could've done so. Yet, they didn't (the treaty--with the above text--was ratified unanimously by the senate).

Also, article six, paragraph 3 of the constitution states:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

If the founding fathers wanted to make sure christianty was the "foundation for governace", they most likely would've made sure to put in a religious requirement for office. Yet, they went out of their way to make sure this didn't happen.

The idea that the constitution was made with christianity in mind doesn't hold water.

Aaron I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot. These guys were pretty smart. They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knwoing the value of Christianity internally. Very smart.

Do you categorically deny that the Nortwest Ordinance reference to requiring religion (Christianity) of new states Constitutions? What they did inwardly was not the same policy as they expressed outwardly. They were smart to express neutrality to foreign nations outwardly while enforcing Christianity within.

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Aaron I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot. These guys were pretty smart. They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knwoing the value of Christianity internally. Very smart.

So, what you're saying is, people in government need to be beholding to a higher power so that they can be trusted (as you said in a earlier post) but you're fine with them lying.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

JUst for the sake of argument lets say you have a point Wayne. Do you still think that after 200+ years and the diverse cultures we have in America today that we should impose one religion on how our gov works?

Case in point. I asked you earlier why you didn't take into consideration that if had been able to go down the road at 90 mph (because your headlights were working), that you would have been past the point where the cows got in the road before they got there. I live in cattle country. Cows cross the road, but they don't just stand there. They don't graze on center lines and lick off the rubber. They cross the road. They had plenty of time to get there because you were going slower.

Something (god, and angel) told me to stop. If I hadn't, something would have died. I think that's interesting, I'm sorry you don't. But that's OK. I guess you had to be there. Ford liked it. Anything else?

You apparently don't get it. We want to talk to you about these claims. We want to know WHY you consider them valid. We want to know why you don't think that there are any other possible explanations. We want to know how you connect a gas leak in '89 with a murder spree in 2012. A theatre was involved. Batman was involved. How does that translate to "god must have spoken to me?"

We get lots of Christians here, but we seldom get anyone who is so hung up on premonition. Oh, I'm sure we've had the occasional christian who said something like "I was going to drive to Norway, but god told me not to. Then I found out there was an ocean between New Jersey and Norway and my whole family would have drowned. God is great!" But not this "wow god is speaking to me and only me and I should have seen it" stuff.

Back in the '70s, when it was very common, I was hitchhiking from Colorado to Oregon. I was standing at a lonely crossroads in Utah waiting for another ride and I remember thinking "This may not be the wisest way to travel. A guy could get killed doing this." Two days later I read in the paper that a hitchhiker were picked up at that same intersection that same day and murdered. I was an atheist then too, so certainly god didn't have a thing to say to me, but do you suppose I had those thoughts because hitchhiking is inherently unsafe, or because some intuitional voice outside of myself was talking to me?

It was me talking to me. I know that. I don't suspect otherwise. And I hitchhiked for several years after that on a regular basis so it didn't stop me from doing anything anyway.

So in the above reply to me you responded with "you had to be there." That is all you had to offer.

Have you considered the possibility that your communication skills with yourself might not be any better than they are with us?

And I offer again help with your quoting. The post you just wrote is about as bad as it gets. I'll try to fix it but no guarantees.

I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test. What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

I'm sorry I have to ask this because I was ready to pass off what I thought of as remarkable coincidences as coincidences only and then something happened at the end. If you don't know what that thing was that happened then all the explanations I tell you will only translate into more insults like that I have trouble communicating to myself.

I am making a direct connection to what I regarded as a remarkable experience in 1989 and how it parodied in a few points. It is more than conceivable, if the bible is true, if there is a God and he's like the one in the bible, that what happened to characters in the bible could and indeed should still happen today. If you have no belief, then of course you will find no connection in what I see as providential. Can we stipulate that?

OK, now I'm convinced of a connection, and people who haven't read or understood my account assail me here without even knowing the account, not having read it. I need to be sure you have taken the time to read it all or we're wasting our time don't you agree?

And excuse me but Parking Places is about to issue me a violation because of my poor parking er. quoting. Thanks for helping Parking. I'll take the time.. soon , really I will.

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Aaron I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot. These guys were pretty smart. They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knwoing the value of Christianity internally. Very smart.

Earlier, you were talking about how people need to be christains to be trustworthy. Now you're fine with those same chirstains lying to others.

That's what we call hypocrisy.

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Do you categorically deny that the Nortwest Ordinance reference to requiring religion (Christianity) of new states Constitutions? What they did inwardly was not the same policy as they expressed outwardly. They were smart to express neutrality to foreign nations outwardly while enforcing Christianity within.

So that we're all clear, this is the part of the text that Wayne (is it ok if I shorten your name?) is refering to:

Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall never be taken from them without their consent; and, in their property, rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice and humanity, shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with them.

The text does refer to religion being "necessary" to government and happiness. However, it says nothing about christianity. I hit ctrl+f, and searched for "Jesus", "christ", and "god". The results were all the same; no matches found. The text could very well apply to muslim, hinduism or buddhism. You need to explain why we should assume that the text refers to christainty, and only christainty.

JUst for the sake of argument lets say you have a point Wayne. Do you still think that after 200+ years and the diverse cultures we have in America today that we should impose one religion on how our gov works?

Yes. (and I duplicated this somehow with a double click but clarification followw below)

« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 12:23:57 AM by WayneHarropson »

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I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test. What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

You seem to be saying that because your truck sprung a gas leak right after the gas leak at the theatre. You consider that leak a boobytrap from god, intended to emphasize the lesson and get your attention.

And that this became apparent to you after the Aurora incident, 23 years later.

Am I close?

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And excuse me but Parking Places is about to issue me a violation because of my poor parking er. quoting. Thanks for helping Parking. I'll take the time.. soon , really I will.

I know. I foresee things too.

Oh, I just went to post this and saw your response to Nick. Which version of christianity do you propose we endure? Yours? mrhaberling's? Pat Robertson's? Fred Phelp's? The rest of us need to know. Oppression is hard enough when it comes from a known source. Its a bitch when it comes out of nowhere.

And I mention this again since you didn't comment before. Yes, prayer and bibles were legal in schools until the early 60's, but I never saw either one in my school. So if you are thinking that the legality of such things made it also universal, you are mistaken. The only mention of god I ever experienced when such things were legal (and in this case, after) was in the pledge of allegiance, and that had only been added a couple of years earlier via the commie scare of the time. Just thought that you would want to now that being legal and being used are not necessarily the same thing.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

JUst for the sake of argument lets say you have a point Wayne. Do you still think that after 200+ years and the diverse cultures we have in America today that we should impose one religion on how our gov works?

Yes I do.

Edited For clarification.

Inscriptions in all the buildings and monuments in and around the capitol are from the bible. Lot's of them. Why is that Aaron? Why are the Ten commandments chiseled into courhouse walls. Why is scripture chiseled into the washington and Lincoln monuments, why did Lincoln quote the Christian preachers of his day and craft his speeches from passages from the bible? Why did he proclaim in his second inaugural that God's judgement for slavery was going to destroy all the wealth piled up from slavery and every drop of blood drawn by the lash would be recompensed with the sword? He was declaring truths from the god of the bible. Was that inappropriate Aaron? What was Washington thinking when he said that the nation would be distroy ed if we lost the smiles of heaven, was he talking about Buddha?

We're in trouble, trouble that has accumulated in time, and America's judgement was only prefaced by 9/11. Schools need metal detectors because the beast is loose in the sorry subjects of a school system that by government mandate has rejected the God of creation, not Hindu. 9/11 was just the beginning. You might like to read a book called The Harbinger. It's written by a Jewish Rabbi christian and proves a biblical pattern is in place for the destruction of America It was on the NY Times list for quite a while.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 12:22:08 AM by WayneHarropson »

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I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test. What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

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You seem to be saying that because your truck sprung a gas leak right after the gas leak at the theatre. You consider that leak a boobytrap from god, intended to emphasize the lesson and get your attention.Am I close?

Pretty close.

Obviously I didn't write the account in a very memorable way. Close as you are you have swerved around one of the most amazing parts of this intervention of God. I was talking on the phone with the city fire inspector and joked with him about how I was responsible for the 89 gas leak because of the prayer I had prayed on my daughters behalf. When I got off the phone, I walked to my truck, and couldn't get it out of the driveway because a gas leak erupted from a gas pump.

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And that this became apparent to you after the Aurora incident, 23 years later.

I was investigating any additional similarities Aurora had with the 89 incident and God boobytrapped my truck to affirm that it is a valid statement to make that God could and would cause a gas leak to make a point.

Thank you. You don't know how gratifying it is to be able to expound on a truly remarkable coincidence to someone who has actually read the account.

Quotations repaired again. This is not a ticket, but do please work a bit harder on this. It takes away from your effectiveness. Does that not motivate you?

« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 12:25:08 AM by ParkingPlaces »

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Inscriptions in all the buildings and monuments in and around the capitol are from the bible. Lot's of them. Why is that Aaron. Why are the Ten commandments chiseled into courhouse walls. Why is scripture chiseled into the washington and lincoln monuments, why did Lincoln quote the Christian preachers of his day and craft his speeches from passages from the bible? Why did he proclaim in his second innogural that God's judgement for slavery was going to destroy all the wealth piled up from slavery and every drop of blood drawn by the lash would be recomensed with the sword? He was declaring truths from the god of the bible. Was that inappropriate Aaron? What was Washington thinking when he said that the nation would be distroyed if we lost the smiles of heaven, was he talking about buddah?

Christianity was the predominant religion of those people. Do you really think I consider it surprising that those sort of things were said or done?

Thus far, your argument has been little more than an angry appeal to authority. If we're going to talk founding fathers, how about the fact that christainty is nowhere to be found in the constitution? Or that there's nothing in it that states "The United States, under the blessing of god..."? For that matter, Thomas Jefferson talked about how the first amendment created "a wall of separation between Church and State". Really, try to come up with something other than "the founding fathers did this, therefore, they were right".

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We're in trouble, trouble that has accumilated in time, and America's judgement was pnly prefaced by 9/11. Schools need metal detectors because the beast is loose in the sorry subjects of a school system that by government mandate has regected the God of creation, not Hindu. 9/11 was just the beginning. You might like to read a book called The Harbinger. It's written by a Jewish Rabbi christian and proves a biblical pattern is in place for the destriction of Americal It was on the NY Times list for quite a while.

So we're in trouble because god is not getting the attention he craves. That's called being petty and selfish.

Aaron I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot. These guys were pretty smart. They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the Islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knowing the value of Christianity internally. Very smart.

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Earlier, you were talking about how people need to be Christan's to be trustworthy. Now you're fine with those same chieftains lying to others.

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That's what we call hypocrisy.

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As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen, and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

You are quick to slander as liars men who very artfully and statesmanly are holding out a olive leaf to assure Musselmen that America is not a crazed religious state plundering the world in the name of Christendom. And is in so doing becoming an example of respectful tolerance and neighborliness to the world. What they are saying here isn't a lie, it is an operating policy. You wish it to be in bad faith in your need to slander Christians, but I think if you take the time to read its lawerly prose it does what it has to do to insure peace. I think it was a really good Idea and I would have signed it myself.

Now, buy some bibles for those schools post haste.Wayne

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You are quick to slander as liars men who very artfully and statesmanly are holding out a olive leaf to assure Musselmen that America is not a crazed religious state plundering the world in the name of Christendom. And is in so doing becoming an example of respectful tolerance and neighborliness to the world. What they are saying here isn't a lie, it is an operating policy. You wish it to be in bad faith in your need to slander Christians, but I think if you take the time to read its lawerly prose it does what it has to do to insure peace. I think it was a really good Idea and I would have signed it myself.

You're the one suggusting that the people who wrote it were lying.

The text states very plainly that the USA is not based upon christainity. To suggust otherwise means that they were being deceptive when they wrote it. That's not a good foundation for "neighborliness" to the world.

For that matter, Thomas Jefferson talked about how the first amendment created "a wall of separation between Church and State".

That is a famously an egregiously misused and misunderstood quote. For an Atheist its OJs glove that didn't fit because the defense council forbad him his arthritis medication. Atheists who use this quote, the honest of them know it's a ploy to get their way from a circumstance that has nothing to do with banning religion from influencing government. The point was that the US Government would never establish one denomination of Christianity to dominate all other sects. Like OJ's glove, it helps you get away with murder and like OJ's corrupt defense council, you should all burn in hell for it.

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So we're in trouble because god is not getting the attention he craves. That's called being petty and selfish.

If a father tells a child not to stick his hand in the fire or he'll get burned, does the fire only burn the child because the father is being petty, and craves attention? I don't think God is craving attention, he just knows, and has set in his governing principals the harsh reality that disobeying his commandments have consequences. Institutionalizing gay marriage is a government's way of sticking its hand in the fire. When a person sins and dies without repentance he will pay the price in the afterlife, but since governments don't have an afterlife they must suffer the consequences in this life. 9/11, ouch, that burns.

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If a father tells a child not to stick his hand in the fire or he'll get burned, does the fire only burn the child because the father is being petty, and craves attention?

A father can demostrate very plainly why sticking your hand into a fire is a bad thing, and he can directly talk to that child. Your god does neither.

More importantly, a father (presumably), does not demand that their child worship them or threaten to burn them for all eternalty if they do not obey.

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I don't think God is craving attention, he just knows, and has set in his governing principals the harsh reality that disobeying his commandments have consequences. Institutionalizing gay marriage is a governments way of sticking its hand in the fire.

Oh please. People of the same sex getting married? That's a perfect example of your god being petty. Instead of being concerned over starving people in Africa (or any other parts of the world), he chose to stick his nose in what two people do in bed.

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When a person sins and dies without repentance he will pay the price in the afterlife, but since governments don't have an afterlife they must suffer the consequences in this life.

Claim asserted without evidence.

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9/11, ouch, that burns.

So god caused (or allowed) 9/11 to happen, and we're suppose to worship him for this? Whatever.

I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test. What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

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You seem to be saying that because your truck sprung a gas leak right after the gas leak at the theatre. You consider that leak a boobytrap from god, intended to emphasize the lesson and get your attention.Am I close?

Pretty close.

Obviously I didn't write the account in a very memorable way. Close as you are you have swerved around one of the most amazing parts of this intervention of God. I was talking on the phone with the city fire inspector and joked with him about how I was responsible for the 89 gas leak because of the prayer I had prayed on my daughters behalf. When I got off the phone, I walked to my truck, and couldn't get it out of the driveway because a gas leak erupted from a gas pump.

I don't suppose you are able to appreciate that this would not be a coincidence in England had it occurred there. Because they call gasoline (which is not a gas) petrol. Gas leak, petrol leak. Not the same thing. Thank the big guy the next time you talk.

I don't suppose you are willing to consider the possibility that you hang around near too many inept mechanics. I don't suppose that you are willing to consider that you missed a couple of his messages because you didn't' consider your flat tires (where air, made up of gases, escaped) to be a message. How about passing gas, radon gas in your basement, the outgassing of paint in your living room, the fact that they use gas to deliver the film to the studios, the batmobile uses gas, welders used gas when building the steel structure under the bricks at Aurora.

Gas is everywhere. Why would an omnipotent being only give you a couple of messages? And what the heck does gas have to do with guns. Oh, the rapidly expanding gas given off by the accelerated decomposition of gunpowder. I get it.

I went to three schools as a kid, a tech school and two colleges as an adult. Then Columbine got shot up. Was that a message from god that I missed because I was an atheist? I've been to the top of several skyscrapers, and while on the observation deck of several I saw airplanes flying over. Was that a warning about 911. And you commented on the irony of the 911 date. Phone engineers needed a three digit number that wasn't part of any existing phone numbers, and the calendar only has 12 months. Two numbers from that limited number show up at the same time. A guy who was in a 007 movie is on a flight with you and your phone comes up, an your phone number ends with 0070, and you are astonished.

This is all a case of not understanding statistical probabilities and the absolute inevitability of such similarities occurring. There are only ten possible numbers. An author chose one combination, your phone provider chose another, and they happened to match under a specific set of circumstances, and instead of being simply bemused, you think that it is a god talking to you. Hey, England was bombed by terrorists on July 7, 2005. Lets see. James Bond was a british spy. O7/07. Not quite the same, but that must have been what god was talking about and you missed it.

There are not an infinite number of single digit numbers. There are not an infinite number of fiction characters. There are not an infinite number of possible human interactions. There are not an infinite number of ways to heat a theatre or power a vehicle. There are not an infinite number of ways for cows to cross the road and nor an infinite number of ways for your headlights to fail (by the way, you don't have much luck with vehicles. Maybe that's god telling you not to drive).

You are reading too much into everything that it important for you to read too much into, and ignoring any and everything that does not fit with your assumptions. You are simplifying the social and political problems in our country, in that you are proclaiming that if we still had prayer in schools, by golly we would all be living just like they did in that documentary called "Leave it to Beaver". You want all to be simple because then your solutions can be simple. And you fail to understand that simple answers don't exist because simple problems don't either.

I grew up in the 50's. Pray and the bible were legal in schools.Was the mere fact that those things were legal enough to keep our country running straight and true? Lets see, in the 50's my neighbor murdered his mother-in-law by shooting her with a shotgun through a hole he cut in the ceiling (he got 7 years). A guy my mom worked with was arrested for exposure, a classmates brother was run over and killed by a drunk, another neighbors grandson was killed when a tree fell on the truck he was riding in, another neighbor died of tetanus, and somebody drowned a puppy in the pond across the street from my house. And I got stung by a bee, just like I did last year. It doesn't sound like America was incredibly different back then. You just think that it was, and you credit all the problems that have occurred since '62 to two legal changes.

Back in the 30's the St. Valentines massacre, where mobsters shot some other mobsters, took place in a theatre. I assume there were times when some mobsters killed other mobsters with a baseball bat. Theatre. Bats. Man. Looks like your parents missed the signs too, and we were still able to pray.Your god has been trying to tell us for a long time, I guess. He saw it coming.

It takes a lot of hubris for you to try to drag the rest of us down with your ideas of what is true and what is important. I am not for one minute suggesting that there are not problems in this world that need our attention. But for them to be fixed we need people with vision, not people wearing blinders who hawk silliness as undeniable truth.

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And that this became apparent to you after the Aurora incident, 23 years later.

I was investigating any additional similarities Aurora had with the 89 incident and God boobytrapped my truck to affirm that it is a valid statement to make that God could and would cause a gas leak to make a point.

Thank you. You don't know how gratifying it is to be able to expound on a truly remarkable coincidence to someone who has actually read the account.

I remember reading a story in Readers Digest in the early 60's. It seems that a high school kid walked into a military surplus store with a buddy and the first thing he noticed is that there was a big pile of packed parachutes for sale. "Cool", he thought. His father had been a paratrooper, and hence he was very interested to see the kind of equipment his father had used during the war. He walked up to the pile of parachutes, picked the first one up, looked first at the front of it and then turned it around. There, written in ink, was his fathers name. It was his dad's parachute. This, if Readers Digest is to be trusted, is a true story.

We haven't had anybody shoot up a jump school or blow up a mall wearing puffy white nylon pants. It was just a coincidence. And that is what you experienced. However, for whatever reason, you have decided to attach significance to the story, so much so that you feel the need to occasionally take flak from others over the incidents. You seem unable to understand that a movie franchise that has made almost 4 billion dollars over the last quarter century is more likely to be involved in multiple incidents than, say, Groundhog Day, which was in and out of the theaters in just a few months. You want to attach importance to gas, as in gas, being similar enough to gas, as in petrol, to be the same thing to you. There aren't that many ages kids can be, but six seems like a magic number to you.

Its bad enough that we don't agree on religion or politics ( I read some of your blog as well). But we may as well be speaking two totally different languages if you are going to insist that obtuse events in your life in 1989 actually able to portend events in 2012. And that the connection is perfectly clear to you. If only in hindsight.

You did not go to the authorities in 1990 and warn them about an impending slaughter. And if you had, even the most ardent and christian cops among them would have laughed you out of the building.

To me, the discussion you are having with others about history are fairly unimportant, because as long as you are going to take the stance that your god was speaking to you via leaks and headlights, I have a heck of a time giving you credibility in any other area. Sorry, but I just can't do it.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

Wayne, it seems that no amount of rational, intelligent reasoning will sway you from your conviction that your experiences are anything but supernatural. You refuse to even acknowledge that coincidences, even some that are incredibly unlikely (of which none of yours are), do happen.

Every time a Powerball jackpot is won, it is essentially a 1 in 175,000,000 coincidence, yet it happens every few weeks. People of all walks of life have won the lottery, even atheists.

Let's examine your Batman story another way:

1. A gas leak causes your local theater to close, thereby preventing your daughter from seeing the '89 Batman filma.2. 23 years later, in a different theater, a different Batman film is interrupted by a madman who releases tear gas and shoots up the place, killing 12 peopleb.3. After talking to your city fire inspector about the '89 gas leak, the fuel pump in your truck malfunctions and leaks fuelc.

a: Gas leaks are not uncommon in structures that utilize natural gas.b: A madman shooting up a theater is an extremely uncommon occurrence.c: Fuel leaks in vehicles that have internal combustion engines are very common.

Two of the three incidents in your story are fairly commonplace, while one is not. The only incidents that affected you personally were the two common ones. It is you and you alone who connects the two common occurrences with the uncommon one.

You continue to blame atheists for the Aurora and Newtown shootings, but your (and others like you) attitude toward guns is a far greater contributor to these massacres than is my (and others like me) attitude towards god. There are not a lot of things of which I am certain, but one of them is that more guns is definitely not the solution.

You have said several times that the one true gospel should be taught throughout the land, especially in schools, but Wayne, you are a Mormon! You must be aware that the vast majority of Christians view your religion as little more than a cult. There is no way most Christians would agree that the Mormon faith should be taught in schools. So what one true gospel are you talking about?

You are certain that god is unhappy about the '62 ruling that banished school-sanctioned prayer, which is why he allows (or even causes) children to be blown away in schools and theaters today. How petty is this deity, and why would you worship such a monster? Why can't godly folks just indoctrinate their own children in whatever manner they deem fit in their own homes? Oh wait, that's already happening, but you just need a convenient scapegoat to explain the bad stuff, don't you?

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Providing rednecks with sunblock since 1996.

I once met a man who claimed to be a genius, then boasted that he was a member of "Mesa".

Oh yes they did. Every single State's constitution declares it. You have only ascribed to the censored version of our founding. Heres what the Northwest ordinance required: "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."

What the state constitutions say is totally irrelevant to the governance of the country and to what the Founding Fathers wanted, or didn't want, the country to be. The fact of the matter is that if you want to see the opinions of the framers, you have to read the Constitution of the United States of America - not point at a state's constitution. Furthermore, the Northwest Ordinance was primarily concerned with making sure that the existing states didn't try to land-grab in the western territories - not about the spread of religion. It's true that they felt religion was important, but they felt it was far more important to make sure that anyone could worship as they chose. Incidentally, the First Amendment trumps something like the Northwest Ordinance.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

Let me translate that for you. It means Bible teaching in Schools. Not any one federally mandated religion (translated sect of Christianity). When they wrote the Northwest ordinance "Religion" meant separate sects of Christianity. They had absolutely no intention of allowing the teaching of false religion or non judeo christian religion in schools, only the true religion of Christ.

No, it does not. This statement of yours is either blatantly ignorant or willingly deceitful and deceptive. It just means that they felt those things should be encouraged and therefore that schools and the like should also be encouraged. It does not mandate any religion in particular, Christian or otherwise. It simply talks about religion in general. For you to claim that they really only meant the religion you believe in is nothing more than a reflection of your own bias in this matter.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

If a terratory didn't include the wording above, they were not admitted. That document was written concurrently with the constitution by the same men who wrote the constitution. I'll repeat it here for emphasis and translate it for clarity. "{Christian} Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."

Funny how it doesn't actually say that a prospective state had to include that wording in order to be admitted. Since it doesn't say this in the Northwest Ordinance, you need to cite a reputable document which does say so. Oh, and I do not accept your "translation" (meaning edit), because you have shown no actual basis in fact to support them. Indeed, it's pretty clear that the actual facts of the matter negate your interpretation of things here.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

In those days I'm certain they had detractors, Atheists. The Atheists were not able to remove these things from official public policy, but they selfishly have succeeded since. That Sandy Hook killer was the amoral, Atheist result of that self centered god denying result., right in line with Madelyn Murray O'Hare's office manager.

It's pretty ironic, you claiming that atheists are selfish, given your attempts to blame all of America's problems on the lack of things you believe in. While I have little doubt that there are selfish atheists out there, it's pretty ridiculous for you to claim that atheists as a whole are selfish, while you claim that all our problems would be solved if we'd just accept that this was always intended to be a Christian country. Pot, meet kettle.

Aaron I know a little about the Tripoli thing, but not a lot. These guys were pretty smart. They knew that on a international relations basis business needed to be conducted with the islamic world in the most practical way possible, also knwoing the value of Christianity internally. Very smart.

You claim here that, knowing well and good that the government was actually based on Christianity, Congress would say the government wasn't in an official treaty with another nation (meaning, in essence, they lied or were at least deceptive in said treaty). It seems much more likely that they meant exactly what they said - that the government of the United States was not actually founded on Christianity, and therefore countries which were not Christian had nothing to fear from them.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

Do you categorically deny that the Nortwest Ordinance reference to requiring religion (Christianity) of new states Constitutions? What they did inwardly was not the same policy as they expressed outwardly. They were smart to express neutrality to foreign nations outwardly while enforcing Christianity within.

I do so categorically deny that they required Christianity of any state. This is easy to check with a simple text search. You are the one claiming that when they said 'religion', they actually meant Christianity, without any support whatsoever.

You are also the one claiming that when they said that the government of the United States was not based on Christianity, they were merely "expressing neutrality". Sounds more like hypocrisy[1] and lying[2] to me. Personally, I think this is complete rubbish. I consider the founders to be honorable and decent men who would never have stooped to such chicanery and doubletalk in official treaties with other nations. If they said that the government was in no way based on Christianity, well, that means the government was in no way based on Christianity.

3. After talking to your city fire inspector about the '89 gas leak, the fuel pump in your truck malfunctions and leaks fuelc.c: Fuel leaks in vehicles that have internal combustion engines are very common.

Wayne, how often do you talk about your stories? You came here specifically to tell them, so I'm guessing they form a BIG part of your conversation.

What are the odds, do you think, of something gas related happening just after telling your gas story? How many times have you told your gas story, then gone home, looked at the stove....and discovered you DIDN'T leave the gas on when you went out?

Wayne, if there is a biblical pattern in place for the destruction of America then according to you and others I assume it is going to happen because the bible can't be wrong ...right? So I'm going to just enjoy myself. You can worry about it.

Other reasons why crime increased in the late 20th century, besides that pesky lack of prayer problem? Researchers are now looking at the element/metal lead, that was in paint (until 1976) and, wait for it, gasoline, until it was slowly phased out late in the century! It was already being phased out in 1989 but maybe Wayne was clued in (albeit way too late) before the rest of us or something.

It is a long article, but worth the read if you are at all interested. The bottom line? There are compelling arguments for saying, to quote a story commenting on the above article, that lead was "a driver of the late 20th century surge in violent crime, drops in IQ, cognitive deficits and incidences of ADHD"

But that would be science, and god hasn't invented that yet, so it can't be true. (That's my guess as to what Wayne's response will be).

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

Muslims are allowed to lie for 2 famous reasons (1) if they are living in an oppressive state, they are allowed to pretend to be Christian, (2) if lying can cause then end to a war, or dispute, then it's considered noble.

Muslims are allowed to lie for 2 famous reasons (1) if they are living in an oppressive state, they are allowed to pretend to be Christian, (2) if lying can cause then end to a war, or dispute, then it's considered noble.

I hope you're not saying the Islam isn't a lie - it looks rather like the 'prophet' and his associates made the whole lot up to get a group together so as to get political power. After they won power, it didn't take long to make it look religious though!

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)