2) Alexander Kohler and Billy Konate "Maninka Foli Karan"http://www.tamtam-hamana.de/djembe_buch.htmlContains 7 rhythms in simplified music notation (a bit like "Life for the djembe") for each rhythm intro, outro, echauffement, exit from exhauffement, and a couple of dunun variations and solo phrases are given, plus song lyrics and CD with the music, somewhat similar to the old classic "Rhythms and songs from Guinea" book. German/English language.

Djembe04 wrote:Not so enthusiastic about the first one.Mistakes, such as wrong signal for Mandiani.

What is wrong with using the tri piti piti piti signal for mendiani?

Djembe04 wrote:Also rhythms that 'are not wrong', but not how he plays these rhythms.

Well, that's not so good:( Anyway, hats-off to Mr.Heinemann for putting work into this! As discussed in the other thread, these are never profitable projects. He wrote to me in e-mail that this year he is working on English edition of the book. So I'll wait for that.

Over 60 rhythms with intros and outros that's a lot to write out and check. Maybe with some peer-review this could become a Konate counterpart to Mamady's "Life for the Djembe" compendium?! Surely there are many people in Germany who have notes and recordings from Billy's workshops.

Djembe04 wrote:You must learn from someone with the right feeling. Media can be used for reference work.

While this is true to some extent, there can be situations where for teaching purposes the teacher plays straighter than they would otherwise. Also, you can also hear the right feeling from the recordings and videos.

Interestingly, in "Maninka Foli Karan" there are two separate audio files for s-ts-- djembe accompaniment in Kawa and Djaa, clearly an attempt to show that these rhythms are swung differently. However, they sound pretty much the same and look the same in audio editor. Hmm ..

I am still not convinced there is a real difference given that practically the percentage of space between the third pulse and the next beat is mostly the same in both families. SML is often SLM and lMS often is LSM. Probably we slightly adapt to the groups actual feeling unconsciously anzway.

You should have written "SML is often SLM and LSM often is LMS", shouldn't you ? I gradually came to the opinion that for maximum consistency the standard swing should be SML for one family and LSM for the other (or SML and SML, downbeat underlined). It fits really good with the beat-shift hypothesis and with the measurements you made here...

Did you read Polak's work about swing perception among players and dancers in Mali ? It seems that one can hardly perceive the difference between SML and SLL. (here)

And his work about Maraka, considered as a nearly isochronous ternary rhythm, shows in fact a soft, but very stable LSM or LSL (or MSM if you want) swing, of about 36 - 29 - 35. (here)

I know this is slightly off-topic, but I couldn't help but adding my two cents...

Jürgen, my investigations about gnawa music led to some good results concerning the genesis of tresillo, claves and "standard pattern", but this should be another thread... Interested ?

Vincent

I may be wrong and you may be right, and by an effort, we may get nearer to the truth. (Popper)

Let's keep this thread about the Billy's books, though. It just struck me as interesting nuance, that on "Maninka Foli Karan" they chose to have two tracks on the pa-tipa accompaniment. I don't have the other book yet (waiting for the english version), but overall, I would say this is a very good one, though quite light on the explanations, and a bit strange choice of rhythms.

Just to finish about pa-tipa : I just have made some measurements from Mamady's CD (ALFTD).Soli & Mendiani : between 60 and 62 %. Djaa & Maraka : between 65 and 67 %. There actually are two different pa-tipa(s), and the difference is easily perceivable. For me, the one of Soli and Mendiani is a shifted tipa . . pa . (as in Djabara). You'll tell me it's quite rare. My answer is the following : every time they have been using it, it shifted the rhythm, except for Djabara, perhaps due to the Dunumba pattern.

Korman, sorry for having polluted your thread.

Vincent

I may be wrong and you may be right, and by an effort, we may get nearer to the truth. (Popper)

No need to worry. Vincent would have started his findings in a separate thread, anyway. But finishing the pa-tipa topic: 60-62% does relate to the gap from pa to ti, doesn't it? So when we take an average of 61% for the Soli and 66% for the Dja family, we have an average gap from ti to pa of 39% and 34% respectively? That's about 13% difference and should be noticeable in Billy's book. Either they had the files confused and accidentally took the same file for both families or Billy recorded both pa-tipas without corresponding rhythms on headphones, I'd guess.

The one rhythm where I can clearly feel a difference is on the Malian Numu, where you play a related s/t.s/b. The gap between third and first pulse must be somewhere around the mid-forties.

djembefeeling wrote:That's about 13% difference and should be noticeable in Billy's book. Either they had the files confused and accidentally took the same file for both families or Billy recorded both pa-tipas without corresponding rhythms on headphones, I'd guess.

Dya is one rhythm I am now looking at. The kenkeni track has XX- part, and there a clear 40/60 division can be seen. When the whole ensemble plays, by ear it sounds similar (a long first pulse, though the song track is harder to analyse in this way). So the takeaway (unsurprisingly!) is to listen to music, not the separate instrument tracks which are produced in sterile environment