November 16, 2004

REMAINFIXATED.ORG

A liberal tax-exempt organization that raised millions of dollars to try to defeat President Bush has begun a petition and fund-raising campaign questioning the legitimacy of his Nov. 2 victory.

MoveOn.org, which says it has 2.3 million members, is asking for signatures and cash to challenge through an "Investigate the Vote" campaign whether voters "were wrongly prevented from voting" and whether legitimate votes were "miscounted or not counted at all."

MoveOn.org should be investigated over its deceptive name.

Posted by Tim Blair at November 16, 2004 12:12 AM

Comments

"MoveOn.org, which says it has 2.3 million members, is asking for signatures and cash..."

I think they (ironically?) took the name moveon when they were trying to get people to move on from the Clintonian scandals. (I think the lewinski-ish scandals, as opposed to the white-water-ish scandals.)

They should have been defunct in 2000, when the entire country moved on from the (male) Clinton presidency.

MoveOn has been a DNC shill since it's invention as an "astroturf" org to do Potemkin-opinion work, trying to get Bill out of trouble for humping the help. But it's a fund-raising org - it will never die, as long as the DNC needs lots of unregulated money.

Their is nothing wrong with Moveon.org. It's just a liberal website that was campaigning for Kerry. Their are conservative websites that are very similiar in their campaigning nature which are campaiging for Bush. What's the big deal?

Apparently you don't know the origins of this group: their purpose was to get public attention away from Bill Clinton's suspected fraudulent real estate deals and philandering and "move on" to the real issues of the day. When the founders realised that this "non-profit" was such a cash cow, they decided that is was much too profitable to actually "move on."

"Second, gut any Bush hopes for legitimacy. Find the places in Florida and Ohio and every other state where a plausible argument for Republican vote fraud can be made. It doesn't matter whether it did happen or not. What matters is if it can be plausibly alleged to marginal Bush supporters and to the media. We also have to let the issue go where it's implausible. Hammering on voter fraud where it's not at least plausible on that level is only going to hurt our credibility. We have to sink our fangs into Republican ankles and hang onto them for dear life on the legitimacy issue. We have to make him "Bush the only American President who was never elected" whether it's true or not."

Kos provides the idea. Soros will now finance the 'investigation'. Doesn't need to have any truth supporting it.

Actually, after being founded to convince the country to "move on" from Clinton's sex-and-perjury scandal to more important matters, MoveOn's very next campaign was to defeat Republican Congressional managers of Clinton's impeachment in the 2000 election:

I've got no problem with either MoveON.org or Kos pushing their ideas. Most of them end up biting their founders in the butt. Keep pushing that voting fraud thing. I grew up in Illinois, and I know who perpetrates the most voter fraud. Push hard enough in Ohio and Florida, and first thing you know, we'll be investigating voter fraud in NYC, Philly, Newark, Cleveland, Detroit, Miami-Dade County, St. Louis, Chicago -- notice any pattern here, idiots?

There was a request before the election for monitoring by Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-Tx) and President Bush requested OSCE monitor the election. The preliminary report is here .

Excerpt:

Allegations about voter disenfranchisement and so-called voter suppression were also widely aired. It was claimed that such practices included non-processing of voter registration applications, the improper removal of eligible voters from voter lists, harassment and intimidation of voters.

While recognizing the seriousness of the above allegations, the EOM was not provided with first-hand evidence to substantiate them or to demonstrate that such practices were widespread or systematic.

If MoveOn had any real bite in the "marginal" supporters Bush would not have been reelected.'
Until the Democratic Party sheds the extremists calling their party's shots they will continue to lose elections.

MoveOnnie #1: You know, we spent all George's money and we still lost the election. I wonder what happened. What the hell is wrong with these sheeple?

MoveOnnie #2: I just don't get it. We shouted and screamed and hissed and made huge papier mache heads of Bushitler... we danced when marines died, threw back shots when soldiers were killed, and cheered the Preznit was called out for serving his plastic Halliburton turkey... Why didn't it work?

MoveOnnie #3: Shit yeah. I called Chimperor Shruberoo every nasty name I could think of. I threw blood on Republican politicians, made up posters photoshopping Bush's face with a tiny Hitler mustache onto photos of Hitler giving the salute, threw rocks at a couple pro-Palestinian Jew bastards on my college campus (what the hell are those Zionists doing at a peace rally anyhow?), and I didn't bathe or shave for 8 weeks as part of my "Kerry Playoff Rally" tactic.

MoveOnnie #5: Alls I did was break into a bunch of Republican campaign offices. I coulda probably broken into a hundred if I'd started during the primary season. Coulda shot some of those Rethugglikkkan brainwashed fascists too.

MoveOnnie #4: Yeah, I guess you're right. We just didn't try hard enough. We could have done a lot more. What we need to do is get really loud and really outrageous, say shitty things about Bushwa even if they're untrue, throw more blood on people, maybe some urine too, maybe try to beat up some returning vets, launch massive astroturf email campaigns against any newspaper that says anything good (or even neutral) about BushSatan and Cheneyussolini, and really get tough with those Middle American nazi scum from Jesusland.

MoveOnnie #1: Right on, dudes. That's what happened. We weren't able to get the voters to notice us. Let's step up the publicity campaign so that they'll pay attention to us this next election cycle.

I spent the last five days before the election in Ohio. Moveon.org sent legions of very serious college students and recycled 1960s hippies to poling places looking for election fraud. These people were thought that they were looking for Republican dirty tricks, but by in large they were earnest people who bought into the Soros, DU line that election violations were a Republican thing. The only thing that most of the recruits were interested in was a fair election.

The result of thousands of election observers standing in front of the polls was to make it darn near impossible for election fraud to occur. I would invite your attention to the comparison of Bush/Gore votes in the precincts that voted for Gore in 2000 to the totals in the same precincts in 2004. There was no voter fraud in any place that I observed.

Bush fared a whole lot better in 2004 than in 2000 in most of these precincts. The results were so dramatic in some of the precincts as to suggest that the 2000 results were the result of something other than normal voting patterns.

My personal view is that what happened is that Moveon.org was the victim of the law of unintended consequences. They seduced a whole bunch of Democrats with the concept that they would be keeping Republicans from committing voter fraud. What happened was that they eliminated Democrat voter fraud. The net result was a fair election.

Most of us are only seeking a fair election. Long live Moveon.org, especially since they have no idea what they are really doing.

voters "were wrongly prevented from voting" and whether legitimate votes were "miscounted or not counted at all."

How about whether voters were wrongly allowed to vote and whether illegitimate votes were counted? I guess with the millions of Vote or Die casualties, things are looking like a Democratic landslide in 2008.

My anecdotal experience with a bunch of MoveOn'ers at my local polling place two weeks ago matches Allan Yackey's...not the wackjob types that seem to be MoveOn's face on the web, but rather Earnest, Concerned Liberals Doing Their Part For Democracy.

Nevertheless, the quasi-cultists are definitely well-represented in the organization as well, and much like JDB I wouldn't be at all surprised to see something shocking happen in the near future...shooting spree, mass suicide, or whathaveyou.

MoveOn is a deeply schizophrenic group at this point, and I do hope that the less rabid members finally find something else to do in the next 4 years (likely accelerated in case something tragic does happen). Once that point is reached, all the billionaire money in the world won't do them much good if only the nutcases are left in the organization. They'll be a Sturmabteilung with laptops, and probably end up being in the crosshairs of law enforcement before too long.

I nominate Hypocrisy.com. The Move-on name comes from its organization to oppose the impeachment of Bill Clinton for lying under oath. Whether you agreed with his acquittal or not, it's hard for straight shooters to say that lying to federal investigators isn't a high crime or misdemeanor, to say nothing of the incredibly bad judgment of diddling the interns in the Oval Office and thinking that 1. it could stay secret, and 2. that it wouldn't distract everybody from the task of governing for 8 months or more as you try to keep it from gettin out.

Electoral integrity isn't a joke. It's a disgrace that people like Tim Blair and Glen Reynolds (not to mention their fans) can't figure that out. Right now Americans are dying so Iraqis can have a fair chance to vote.

If we're unable or unwilling to prove to Americans that our own recent election was legitimate, how do we expect to convince skeptical Iraqis that they should trust an American-run election? Will we do the convincing with the barrel of a gun? If Iraqis don't trust the results of their upcoming election, how many extra Americans will have to die as a result?

It's entertaining to see all the satirical URLs this group can generate, but does this Beavis-and-Butthead routine help to convince Iraqis that Americans take democracy seriously? Or are we warning them to expect that their own inevitable concerns will be dismissed and ridiculed?

Speaking of integrity, above Chris Josephson quoted from a reader comment found on dailykos.com, and created the false impression the comment was written by the host (Kos). Chris said "Kos provides the idea." That would be like quoting from my posting here and claiming Tim Blair is the author. And Chris had the gall to label the quoted post "No Truth Needed." Indeed.

I love that quote from Kos, Chris. It shows real commitment to truth and democracy--and continuing the spirit of Bill Clinton. Maybe it was the sight of him campaigning for Kerry that stirred up the high turnout.

As for electoral integrity, JBG, it's the Democrats who are pushing to register people without determining if they're even entitled to vote, and calling any concern about electoral integrity "intimidation." If they cared about electoral integrity, they wouldn't be trying to recruit illegal aliens to vote and deceiving people who can't even speak English.

The last thing people want is a return to the Bill and Hill show. It wasn't just the man at the top. It was the horde of vermin who came in with him, and couldn't leave the White House without vandalizing it.

Bush showed the country what respect for the office and real leadership is, and I don't think all the phony accusations and the media onslaught could erase that. 744124

Electoral integrity isn't a joke. It's a disgrace that people like Tim Blair and Glen Reynolds (not to mention their fans) can't figure that out.

Nice strawman you have there.

If we're unable or unwilling to prove to Americans that our own recent election was legitimate, how do we expect to convince skeptical Iraqis that they should trust an American-run election?

Thing is, guys like you essentially take this to mean that everyone should prove that the election was "not illegitimate", rather than you folks proving that it was not legit. Of course, then Logic 101 comes into play, in that it's usually darn near impossible to disprove a negative. That's the point of every leftist and their demented brother thinking up all these crackpot theories about how the evil Rethuglicans "stole the election" because, as long as there's one not-yet-debunked stolen-election theory out there, you guys can continue to carp about how unfair it was that your candidate LOST.

It's entertaining to see all the satirical URLs this group can generate, but does this Beavis-and-Butthead routine help to convince Iraqis that Americans take democracy seriously? Or are we warning them to expect that their own inevitable concerns will be dismissed and ridiculed?

No, I think the message most Iraqis would take from threads like this is that, once the insurgency is crushed and democracy fulled established in Iraq, they too will be free to make fun of the idiots in their midst. And they'll probably enjoy it just as much as we do.

We aren't mocking the Electoral Process. We are mocking the blatant hypocrisy of the DNC, MoveOn.org, and other moonbats, each and every one of whom insist that the Rethuglicans Are Evil.

Yet one state Democratic party official was caught paying for voter registrations with crack cocaine. Other areas had little problems like more registered voters after a DNC sponsored drive than the county population. And so on.

So you'll excuse me if I don't take you seriously. Clearly, you are not interested in anything but stirring up shit to prove how righteous you.

Actually, this is great. Hunter Thomson once said, "If you get people asking the wrong questions, you don't need to worry about the answers."

There is no actual threat here. If the MoveOn.org folk want to waste their money, time, and creative energy (if any), not to mention George Soros' money, on their delusions, more power to them, I say. I'll send them a small donation.

Hmmmm. I wonder if I could recoup my donation selling tin-foil hats to them with "MoveOn.org" printed on them? Those conservative redneck space aliens won't stop beaming mind control rays just cause the election is over! No sirree.

Andrea said "'jukeboxgrad.' The name says it all. Why don't you pack that Macho Indignation back up in your lunchbox and eff off to your damp basement, puppy?"

Sorry Andrea, a "puppy" with a "lunchbox" is a mixed metaphor that boggles even my own flexible mind, even though I've been to DisneyWorld. Anyway, there might actually be a handful of people here who realize that lowbrow personal mockery is a poor substitute for answering a challenge directly.

AST said "I love that quote from Kos, Chris." Nice. You talk about "commitment to truth" and in the same breath repeat Chris's deception. The passage cited (written by a visitor to dailykos.com) is no more a "quote from Kos" than my own words here are a "quote from Tim Blair."

AST also said "As for electoral integrity, JBG, it's the Democrats who [allegedly committed various offenses with regard to electoral integrity]." (Others here also made a similar point.)

If, as some claim, a closer look would only end up showing a stronger Bush victory, then why all the resistance? Seems odd. Making a reasonable effort to clear up suspicious reports should be a non-partisan priority, just like enhanced turn-out should be a non-partisan priority.

PW said: "guys like you essentially take this to mean that everyone should prove that the election was 'not illegitimate', rather than you folks proving that it was not legit."

Reasonable questions (regarding alleged electoral shenanigans) have been raised on both sides. Please explain why there shouldn't be a reasonable effort to investigate those issues. (If nothing else, it will help show Iraqis we mean business when we talk about commitment to democracy.) That such an effort is met with ridicule and resistance makes a lot of people think that someone has something to hide.

PW also said "as long as there's one not-yet-debunked stolen-election theory out there..."

Now who's using a "straw man?" The trouble is there's not just one troubling incident, there are scores. Please explain why they should all be swept under the rug.

"once the insurgency is crushed and democracy fulled established in Iraq"

You mean once we turn the corner after turning the corner after turning the corner? You mean once we're finally able to see the light at the end of the tunnel? You mean once several hundred thousand tons of missing munitions (including 4000 Stinger missiles) have all been expended against us? (Yes, the 400 tons of missing high-explosives are only the tip of iceberg. Roughly half of Saddam's munitions are still unaccounted for.)

You mean once the CinC is ready to pose in front of a billboard that says "Mission Accomplished?" You mean once we've killed every Muslim who is not comfortable with the fact that our born-again president described this as a "crusade?" You mean once al-Jazeera gets tired of running video of children we've maimed?

You mean once Europe, China and Japan decide they no longer want to keep funding our colossal deficit? You mean once our currency collapses? You mean once OBL has succeeded in his strategy to bankrupt us?

I hope you're encouraging your kids and grandkids to prepare for a long career in the military. They should also be prepared to send a huge chunk of their paycheck to our overseas creditors.

WARNING! WARNING! LEFTOID TALKING POINTS HAVE BEEN DETECTED IN THIS THREAD! TAKE COVER IMMEDIATELY AND DON YOUR ANT-BULLSHIT PROTECTIVE CLOTHING!! SET FIREWALL AND ANTI-VIRUS PROTECTION TO "MOONBAT RESISTANT", AND PREPARE FOR FURTHER INCOMING FECES!!!

WHOOP!!! WHOOP!!! WHOOP!!!

For afteraction purposes, the relevant talking points are summrized below

You mean once several hundred thousand tons of missing munitions (including 4000 Stinger missiles) have all been expended against us? (Yes, the 400 tons of missing high-explosives are only the tip of iceberg. Roughly half of Saddam's munitions are still unaccounted for.)

#2: Ridicules aircraft carrier landing

You mean once the CinC is ready to pose in front of a billboard that says "Mission Accomplished?"

#3: Bushitler is a hate mongering crusading Christian

You mean once we've killed every Muslim who is not comfortable with the fact that our born-again president described this as a "crusade?"

#4: The US is in an economic crisis

You mean once Europe, China and Japan decide they no longer want to keep funding our colossal deficit?

#5: Variation on return of the draft meme

I hope you're encouraging your kids and grandkids to prepare for a long career in the military.

They are right though. There was a very large act of voter suppression in Milwaukee. Unfortuntely, it was funded by the Democrats. The son of a newly elected congresswoman from Milwaukee and the son of the ex-mayor of Milwaukee, both Democrats, were arrested for slashing tires on 20 vans rented by the Rep. party to carry voters to the polls on election day.

Amazingly, this story got a day or 2 of mention and has since died in the press..

I guess all of the moveon.org complaints of voter supression were correct since they were the ones instigating the activity.

JR, you mentioned "www.ibetbushvotersweredeniedtoo.org." As I said, both sides need to be held accountable. The fact that many on the right seemingly object to this notion tends to create the impression that someone is hiding something.

Real, you said "ignoring confirmed components of WMD." Please explain what "confirmed components" you're talking about, and explain what makes you think I'm ignoring them. If you're talking about nuke-related machines that were looted from all seven major nuclear sites we left unguarded, it's actually your side that's doing the ignoring. Likewise for old chemical weapons that we similarly failed to guard and were subsequently looted.

"Ridicules aircraft carrier landing"

Please explain what it is about that flyboy-with-a-codpiece stunt you don't find utterly ridiculous.

"Bushitler is a hate mongering crusading Christian"

It's not a question of whether or not I think Bush is a "hate mongering crusading Christian." It's a question of whether his utterly inept use of the word "crusade" (and other similar blunders) makes it stunningly easy for OBL et al to convince masses of Muslims that Bush is a "hate mongering crusading Christian." But I guess we shouldn't expect Bush to have any awareness of an issue like this, since by his own admission he's in a bubble and sees no need to read newspapers.

Please explain why blunders like this make you feel safer.

"The US is in an economic crisis"

I didn't say it is. But I'll sleep better at night after I hear someone explain why such a crisis isn't inevitable, since we're spending a mammoth amount of money that sooner or later will have to end up back where we borrowed it (overseas). Bush hasn't offered that explanation, and neither have you.

"Variation on return of the draft meme"

Likewise, I'll sleep better at night when someone explains how a draft is not inevitable, given our current obsession with the idea that the proper way to spread democracy is by force.

By the way, if we really are sure there's no draft coming, why do we still operate the Selective Service System? Getting rid of it would be a nice way for Bush to prove he means what he says. I don't see him doing that, although he's been gutting lots of other federal programs.

Bush saying "there won't be a draft" is kind of like "read my lips." Remember that one? Runs in the family.

I realize you think you can dismiss reality by labeling it as "talking points" and "bullshit," without offering a shred of evidence. That must be nice for you, but I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid.

I howled at the WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP! comment. Jukebox is to be commended for standing up in the face of some excellent guff. She obviously believes in her statements and doesn't realize that simply repeating them makes her a laughingstock. They are such good talking points. Somewhere her spiritual sister is walking around with a hula hoop trying to get someone to listen to her claim that the Rathergate documents really could have been produced on a typewriter.

Bush won fair and square, but if moveon.org wants to spend its money on recounts that confirm that fact, why not? They wasted all their money during the campaign (on silly, poorly targeted ads), so why should they stop wasting it now?

Don't rub your eyes, children, I have merely shrunken down the text of jukeboxtoad's shrill screams to the text size they deserve. Oh, and since I'm not hosting a symposium to discuss leftist talking sourhead points of yesteryear, I've banned the little troll.

I realize you think you can dismiss reality by labeling it as "talking points" and "bullshit," without offering a shred of evidence. That must be nice for you, but I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid.

I love how certain arguments can be debunked ad nauseam all over the blogosphere (as every single one of jukeboxgrad's arguments has been), but when people finally get tired of repeating themselves all the time and simply apply the obvious label "talking point" to those arguments, we get shrill "YOU HAVE NEVER OFFERED ANY EVIDENCE THAT I AM WRONG!!!!!!!!111one!!!" responses. Hey Jukey, maybe we haven't offered them to you, just to five-hundred other people who sounded exactly like you because they were reading from the exact same (MoveOn-funded) script you are.

The fact that you seriously seem to believe that your delusions constitute reality is really all we needed to know about you, so thanks for that.

(I also appreciate how you managed to go from your faux-thoughtful "I just want voter fraud investigated, no matter who did it" pose to rabid moonbatism in the span of only three comments. Having a little passive-aggressive problem, don'tcha? Well, maybe you just don't take criticism well. My bet's on passive-aggressive though.)

"The burden of proof is on you ... They're your accusations, finding evidence is your problem."

There is some looking going on at the moment. How much real evidence is found remains to be seen (our current voting machines are cleverly designed to not leave an audit trail, and that's part of the problem). What's remarkable, suspicious and objectionable is how some on the right seem to feel that even looking is something to be mocked and resisted. What are they afraid of?

"I love how certain arguments can be debunked ad nauseam all over the blogosphere (as every single one of jukeboxgrad's arguments has been)"

Really? Where? The cool thing about this medium is that all you have to do is post a URL. I notice you have lots of energy for name-calling, but no energy to even cite any remotely factual response. I wonder why. Should be wicked easy, since they're "all over the blogosphere."

"Oh, and since I'm not hosting a symposium to discuss leftist talking sourhead points of yesteryear, I've banned the little troll."

I realize that for you "troll" is a euphemism for "someone who's not in lockstep with my doctrinaire beliefs," but presumably you're aware that fair people use that word differently.

Anyway, this is par for the course when a t-shirt saying "protect our civil liberties" makes one subject to arrest at a Bush campaign rally. We should send our Constitution to Iraq; we're hardly using it around here anymore.

No, I'm sorry. When I hear somebody pull out a variation of "The Bush administration is wrecking the economy" (among other blanket assertions), I for one can't even be bothered to post URLs anymore, because the accusation is just so laughably nonsensical. And again, burden of proof's on you folks to back up your talking points; we don't have to do shit (except sit back and laugh at you) as long as you don't have anything to offer except your sincere belief in the inherent evilness of Republicans. As far as this blog goes, remember, you are coming here to play in our little sandbox, not the other way around. So please, firstmate, post your URLs backing up jukeboxgrad's assertions, or kindly piss off and troll for attention elsewhere.

I realize that for you "troll" is a euphemism for "someone who's not in lockstep with my doctrinaire beliefs," but presumably you're aware that fair people use that word differently.

Doctrinaire beliefs? Hmm, once again, a great opportunity to make this really short: Pot. Kettle. Black.

More to the point, firstmate, a lot of trolls state their opinion as fact. These are usually in the form of some talking point that they read on Daily Kos or other Bizarro World web site.

When presented with evidence to the contrary (links are often provided), or a logical argument, these cretins usually dismiss the evidence and repeat their shrill cries. Sometimes they change the subject or move the goalposts, but in the end, it's always the shrill cries that their truth is the only truth.

PW said it's "laughably nonsensical" to assert that our mammoth budget deficits are a serious problem. But they are indeed a problem, and no one has explained how they represent anything other than saddling future generations with a mountain of debt. Our kids' future earnings are currently being mortgaged to Asian bankers. So much for the cowboy myth that we can get away with saying drop dead to the rest of the world. That's what we're doing now, and our kids will ultimately be obligated to pay the bill, literally.

"post your URLs backing up jukeboxgrad's assertions"

Here's a start. My pals and everyone else here are well-aware that you could easily do this legwork yourself, but for the moment lets humor you.

"The Cost of Empire, President Bush’s war policy marks the beginning of the end of America’s era of global dominance ... A recent report commissioned by the U.S. Treasury Department, but buried by the Bush administration, pointed out the magnitude of the fiscal crisis confronting the U.S. in funding health care and pension commitments to the rapidly aging 'baby boom' generation. As Niall Ferguson and Laurence Kotlikoff suggest in an important article in the Fall 2003 issue of the National Interest, the looming imperative of achieving fiscal solvency through a combination of painful tax increases and spending cuts eventually will spur the realization that America’s imperial ambitions are unaffordable. Over time, America’s fiscal troubles will erode its economic power—which is the foundation of its military might—and, as the relative power gap between the U.S. and potential new great powers begins to shrink, the costs and risks of challenging the United States will decrease and the pay-off for doing so will increase." (http://amconmag.com/10_06_03/cover.html)

"Going critical: American power and the consequences of fiscal overstretch ... the decline and fall of America's undeclared empire will be due not to terrorists at our gates nor to the rogue regimes that sponsor them, but to a fiscal crisis of the welfare state ... As we write, the crisis of the American welfare state remains a latent one. Few people, least of all in the government, wish to believe it is real. But the crisis could manifest itself with dramatic suddenness if there is a significant shift in the expectations of financial markets at home or abroad ... In short, the colossus that currently bestrides the world has feet of clay. The latent fiscal crisis of the American welfare state implies, at best, an empire run on a shoestring, at worst a retreat from nation-building as swift as the original advance towards it. As Edward Gibbon once wrote, 'the finances of the declining empire' do indeed make an interesting subject."

(That's from "The National Interest." The original article is by subscription only, but virtually the whole article can also be seen here: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_73/ai_109220697/pg_1)

In case you never heard of "The National Interest," you should know that Newt Gingrich called it "conservative realism at its best." It's also been praised by George Will and Charles Krauthammer. The publisher is James Schlesinger, former Secretary of Defense for Nixon and Ford.

Here are a few more.

"The Tax-Cut Pendulum and the Pit"
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16134-2004Oct7.html)

I realize you probably think that folks like American Conservative, National Interest, Business Week, the US Treasury Dept and the International Monetary Fund are all in cahoots with Soros and Moore. But they might be right, nevertheless.

""The Cost of Empire, President Bush’s war policy marks the beginning of the end of America’s era of global dominance"

I thought that was what you guys wanted.

"... A recent report commissioned by the U.S. Treasury Department, but buried by the Bush administration, pointed out the magnitude of the fiscal crisis confronting the U.S. in funding health care and pension commitments to the rapidly aging 'baby boom' generation." (Bolds mine.)

So.... you're all for privatizing Social Security? You're as unhappy about the idea of the mostly wealthy Baby Boomers sucking up all the funds while their kids and grandkids unto the fourth generation get diddlysquat because it will all be gone? I don't get what your problem is exactly. It is entirely possible that most conservatives have a beef with Bush's domestic spending policies while approving of spending even more money on defense. And most conservatives think that the way to do this is to cut social pork from the budget, therefore freeing up more taxpayer money to pay for those things that will help us actually survive into old age.

By the way, this topic is veering off course. The topic was the ridiculousness of Moveon.org not moving on. Try to concentrate, people.

Andrea, your latest persona is an improvement over your earlier puerile name-calling, but only [Bzzzzt! Oh, I'm sorry, the "Wingtowing Yakking Hour" has been pulled by the network after it was observed that no one was watching the channel at all. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. The Management.]

"We should send our Constitution to Iraq; we're hardly using it around here anymore."

Funny, I hadn't noticed that the Constitution has been dispensed with. In fact, there is dissent all over the place in this country. Just click here to see what MoveOn.org has to say, as protected by the US Constitution.