But I thought a player had to 'carry his team'. Pronger, Crosby, Giguere and Datsyuk were all outshone by teammates when they won their Cups. Are they chokers?

What has Thornton done in these playoffs to warrant this claim he has underachieved?

I just think that being your team's best player whilst not replicating Messier is not underachieving. That's just me.

and ONCE AGAIN(ugh) "carry their team on their back" does NOT MEAN DO IT ALL...

Pavelski has been tearing it up for San Jose and Heatley and Boyle and PPG players... "carry a team on your back" means lift them, emotionally and physically with your play... it's not all about stats, and if he can't inspire them and score goals WHEN THEY MATTER, he is a choke...

I don't even know how I have to keep explaining this to you, I really could not have made my point any clearer... UNTIL HE WINS THE BIG PRIZE, THE EARLY ROUNDS DO NOT MATTER

and ONCE AGAIN(ugh) "carry their team on their back" does NOT MEAN DO IT ALL...

Pavelski has been tearing it up for San Jose and Heatley and Boyle and PPG players... "carry a team on your back" means lift them, emotionally and physically with your play... it's not all about stats, and if he can't inspire them and score goals WHEN THEY MATTER, he is a choke...

I don't even know how I have to keep explaining this to you, I really could not have made my point any clearer... UNTIL HE WINS THE BIG PRIZE, THE EARLY ROUNDS DO NOT MATTER

Right. So Zetterberg's not a choke because he was the best player for a Cup-winner.

This is an honest question, because I'm trying to understand your logic. Does this mean that every other Red Wing player was a choke in your view?

Or...

Is it just every player that didn't win the Cup a choke? Is Ovechkin a choker? Sure, he lead his team with 5 goals and 5 assists, and carried his team, but not to victory. His teammates were awful, but because he didn't carry his team when it mattered, he's a choker, right?

Right. So Zetterberg's not a choke because he was the best player for a Cup-winner.

This is an honest question, because I'm trying to understand your logic. Does this mean that every other Red Wing player was a choke in your view?

Or...

Is it just every player that didn't win the Cup a choke? Is Ovechkin a choker? Sure, he lead his team with 5 goals and 5 assists, and carried his team, but not to victory. His teammates were awful, but because he didn't carry his team when it mattered, he's a choker, right?

So far, yes, Ovechkin has choked, because he has not come through when it mattered - I don't know why you can't grasp this - this isn't JUST about points, it's about the way you lead your team and the effort in the moments that it matters

and I know you're trying to be cute, but cut it - you know damn well that because one guys lifts his game and helps his team win, that doesn't "make every other player a choke"

Your best players need to be your best players, in the times it matters the most. period. I don't know how much clearer I can put that...

So far, yes, Ovechkin has choked, because he has not come through when it mattered - I don't know why you can't grasp this - this isn't JUST about points, it's about the way you lead your team and the effort in the moments that it matters

and I know you're trying to be cute, but cut it - you know damn well that because one guys lifts his game and helps his team win, that doesn't "make every other player a choke"

Your best players need to be your best players, in the times it matters the most. period. I don't know how much clearer I can put that...

Okay, I can accept that you personally have ridiculous standards.

FWIW, Thornton has been their best player so that last statement is moot.

and Thornton has NOT been their best player when it matters, so your opinion is moot.v. Chicago2GP 0G 1A 1PT -4

Hate to butt-in but I found this ironic.

I found Bob McKenzie's comments after Game 2 interesting. "I thought Thornton played well, Heatley and Marleau need to deliver more."

Honestly, I've trashed Thornton so much over the years for his patheticness come playoffs, but he really has been so much better this playoff season and has been their best, most consistent player. IMO, it's no contest.

I hate Joe Thornton but he has been by far their best player since Round 1. He seemed to be the only player with an ounce of passion in him in the last game. You wanna point fingers?? Heatley and Marleau. They've been extra pathetic. But Joe Thornton has been much improved in these playoffs.

Seriously guys. You can't base an opinion solely on stats.

Yeah, the rest of their team sure has sucked. Who's that other Joe guy? Pavlosvki? Pavelskin? Oh well, it can't be that important, I'm sure he wasn't any good.

Yeah, the rest of their team sure has sucked. Who's that other Joe guy? Pavlosvki? Pavelskin? Oh well, it can't be that important, I'm sure he wasn't any good.

Pavelski was great in Round 1. BUT!! Since Round 1, Pavelski has played two good games. He's been non-existent since Game 2 against Detroit.

Absolutely. Non. Existent.

He got an assist in game 3 and tonight's assist was his first point in 5 games. This is the worst argument yet. Seriously.

I like Pierre McGuire's comment, "What can you say about Joe Thornton elevating his game when he's needed the most." At another point I also heard him say, "Thornton needs some help from his wingers." Note, that wasn't in reference to Marleau or Heatley.

Q: Of all the individual trophies you have not won, which one would you most like to win?Datsyuk: I have so many of them that I haven't won. I think I would most like to win a trophy to the best goaltending duo.

I don't know what you're thinking here. Everyone, I think, should be able to agree that prior to this year, Thornton has been universally considered a choker. People have considered him a choker with these numbers in the postseason: