Jeff wrote:Could you describe how it would be different? Does not a senior student feel light/divine love in the presence of someone who has attained Rigpa? (Divine love "feels" more like a combination of "peace" and "joy" than what we normally describe as romantic love.)

Divine love?

Dzogchen is nothing like this. Its not like New Age love and light B.S.

Jeff wrote:I fail to see the point of the above comment other than to politely say that I don't know what I am talking about.

When it comes to Dzogchen, yes, you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you are interested in Dzogchen, you should connect with a Dzogchen master.

Saying that there is one truth and different paths is meaningless in this context. Without connecting with the transmission of Dzogchen, and applying it in your life you will never understand what Dzogchen is.

Malcolm wrote:No. Not at all. There is no "vibration" that you will feel emanating from someone who has genuine knowledge of the state of Dzogchen.

I suggest you read Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, and become a little more educated about this subject.

I cannot educate you from the ground up. However, I can supply you with a couple of citations:

When a master teaches Dzogchen, he or she is trying to transmit a state of knowledge. The aim of the master is to awaken the student, opening that individual's consciousness to the primordial state. The master will not say, "Follow my rules and obey my precepts!" He will say, "Open your inner eye and observe yourself. Stop seeking an external lamp to enlighten you from outside, but light your own inner lamp. Thus the teachings will come to live in you, and you in the teachings."

Ordinary beings are reborn without choice, conditioned by their karma into taking a body according to the causes they have accumulated over countless past lives. A totally realized being, on the other hand, is free from the cycle of conditioned cause and effect. But such a being may manifest a body through which others can have the possibility of being helped. The Body of Light, or the Light Body of a being who has realized the Great Transfer, are both phenomena which can be actively maintained so that those having the visionary clarity necessary for perceiving them can communicate with the fully realized individuals whose bodies find themselves in a dimension of pure light.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. The Crystal and the Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen (pp. 162-163). Kindle Edition.

M

Thank you for your words. I believe the above is exactly what I have said in this thread and in the "Guru Yoga" thread. I have just attempted to describe it in exeriencial (and simple) terms.

I will also check out your book recommendation.

Then you believe incorrectly. You are limited by your experience. The level or realization you are describing is infinitesimal when compared to the realization needed to make the 5 elements of your body dissolve into light leaving nothing but nails and hair.

Some Masters have deliberately halted the rainbow body process to stay and teach humans in this realm.

I am definitely limited by my experience.

My point is that different paths describe similar things with different words. This is often because the various perspectives driven by the time and culture.

Making the 5 elements of your body dissolve into light can be "translated to" Ascending into heaven.

Jeff wrote:Could you describe how it would be different? Does not a senior student feel light/divine love in the presence of someone who has attained Rigpa? (Divine love "feels" more like a combination of "peace" and "joy" than what we normally describe as romantic love.)

Divine love?

Dzogchen is nothing like this. Its not like New Age love and light B.S.

In context I was describing comparable terms from a different path.

My "Bet" is that if you were in the presence of someone who had attained Rigpa you would "feel" an overwhelming sense of "peace" (if you were not yet able to connect as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu describes).

Jeff wrote:My "Bet" is that if you were in the presence of someone who had attained Rigpa you would "feel" an overwhelming sense of "peace" (if you were not yet able to connect as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu describes).

My point is that different paths describe similar things with different words. This is often because the various perspectives driven by the time and culture.

Making the 5 elements of your body dissolve into light can be "translated to" Ascending into heaven.

In the end... There is only truth... but many ways to view it.

You are completely clueless about Dzogchen. You are describing a continent you have never visited. Cliched platitudes are no replacement for wisdom earned through meditation or long periods of intellectual inquiry. The far horizon of your imagination does not even come close to the wonders you are missing out on.

Jeff wrote:Could you describe how it would be different? Does not a senior student feel light/divine love in the presence of someone who has attained Rigpa? (Divine love "feels" more like a combination of "peace" and "joy" than what we normally describe as romantic love.)

Divine love?

Dzogchen is nothing like this. Its not like New Age love and light B.S.

In context I was describing comparable terms from a different path.

My "Bet" is that if you were in the presence of someone who had attained Rigpa you would "feel" an overwhelming sense of "peace" (if you were not yet able to connect as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu describes).

My dear sir you would lose that bet in an instant.You have to start studying and give up your total fantasy.Gambling usually doesn't pay.

Find a dzogchen teacher .

"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

Jeff wrote:My point is that different paths describe similar things with different words. This is often because the various perspectives driven by the time and culture.

In this case you would be mistaken since you know next to nothing about Dzogchen.

Making the 5 elements of your body dissolve into light can be "translated to" Ascending into heaven.

No, it can't. It has nothing to do with going to heaven, or anything like that.

I will stop. You continue to miss my point. I am not trying to define that there is a "heaven". Only that to an educated person, seeing a body dissolve into light could be described as "ascending into heaven".

Jeff wrote:My point is that different paths describe similar things with different words. This is often because the various perspectives driven by the time and culture.

In this case you would be mistaken since you know next to nothing about Dzogchen.

Making the 5 elements of your body dissolve into light can be "translated to" Ascending into heaven.

No, it can't. It has nothing to do with going to heaven, or anything like that.

I will stop. You continue to miss my point. I am not trying to define that there is a "heaven". Only that to an educated person, seeing a body dissolve into light could be described as "ascending into heaven".

And you continue to miss mine i.e. you actually don't understand what is being discussed here in the Dzogchen forum, whatever else you may properly understand elsewhere.

And as to your point, you won't see anyone actually dissolving into light. At most, you would observe a shrinkage of the physical remains of a person.

Jeff wrote:I will stop. You continue to miss my point. I am not trying to define that there is a "heaven". Only that to an educated person, seeing a body dissolve into light could be described as "ascending into heaven".

And you continue to miss mine i.e. you actually don't understand what is being discussed here in the Dzogchen forum, whatever else you may properly understand elsewhere.

And as to your point, you won't see anyone actually dissolving into light. At most, you would observe a shrinkage of the physical remains of a person.

M

I have understood your point from the beginning. As stated previously, I was just attempting to point out what I believe to be universal components.

To the broader group- I understand the group perspective presented that in the presence of someone who has obtained Rigpa that one would not experience light/energy/vibrations or a sense of peace.

Jeff wrote: As stated previously, I was just attempting to point out what I believe to be universal components.

There are broad commonalities in Dzogchen with common Mahāyāna view; commonalities with Vajrayāna as well; but the perspetive of Dzogchen about the basis in terms of what is called sound, lights, and rays is unique to Dzogchen and not shared with other traditions -- though it is tempting to try and find connections.

Malcolm wrote:There are broad commonalities in Dzogchen with common Mahāyāna view; commonalities with Vajrayāna as well; but the perspetive of Dzogchen about the basis in terms of what is called sound, lights, and rays is unique to Dzogchen and not shared with other traditions -- though it is tempting to try and find connections.

But such a being may manifest a body through which others can have the possibility of being helped. The Body of Light, or the Light Body of a being who has realized the Great Transfer, are both phenomena which can be actively maintained so that those having the visionary clarity necessary for perceiving them can communicate with the fully realized individuals whose bodies find themselves in a dimension of pure light.

... You do not think this communication is the same/similar as what is experienced between a Guru and an advanced student?

Malcolm wrote:There are broad commonalities in Dzogchen with common Mahāyāna view; commonalities with Vajrayāna as well; but the perspetive of Dzogchen about the basis in terms of what is called sound, lights, and rays is unique to Dzogchen and not shared with other traditions -- though it is tempting to try and find connections.

But such a being may manifest a body through which others can have the possibility of being helped. The Body of Light, or the Light Body of a being who has realized the Great Transfer, are both phenomena which can be actively maintained so that those having the visionary clarity necessary for perceiving them can communicate with the fully realized individuals whose bodies find themselves in a dimension of pure light.

... You do not think this communication is the same/similar as what is experienced between a Guru and an advanced student?

Depends on the tradition, the guru, and the student.

Receiving shaktipat from a Kundalini guru, for example,or satsang with an Advaita, etc., or Dokusan from a Zenmaster has nothing at all do with a direct introduction from a Dzogchen master. They are not even in the same ballpark. Different principles, different practices, different experiences, different results.

Malcolm wrote:There are broad commonalities in Dzogchen with common Mahāyāna view; commonalities with Vajrayāna as well; but the perspetive of Dzogchen about the basis in terms of what is called sound, lights, and rays is unique to Dzogchen and not shared with other traditions -- though it is tempting to try and find connections.

But such a being may manifest a body through which others can have the possibility of being helped. The Body of Light, or the Light Body of a being who has realized the Great Transfer, are both phenomena which can be actively maintained so that those having the visionary clarity necessary for perceiving them can communicate with the fully realized individuals whose bodies find themselves in a dimension of pure light.

... You do not think this communication is the same/similar as what is experienced between a Guru and an advanced student?

Depends on the tradition, the guru, and the student.

Receiving shaktipat from a Kundalini guru, for example,or satsang with an Advaita, etc., or Dokusan from a Zenmaster has nothing at all do with a direct introduction from a Dzogchen master. They are not even in the same ballpark. Different principles, different practices, different experiences, different results.

M

Agreed. But, those are really not examples of what I meant by a "guru connection".