Research Interview Notes of Richard F. Fenno, Jr. with
Members of the U.S. House of Representatives, 1959-1965

Access to this interview is subject to the deed of
gift of December 14, 1993.

Interview with Rep. J. Vaughan Gary (D-VA)
May 27, 1959
General remarks: great concern for the taxpayers' money--he stressed the need for an overall
view--particularly interesting that I should have gained this impression, because he was the first
subcommittee chairman interviewed.

Why on the committee? "Very frankly, when I came up I wanted to be on the Ways and Means
Committee. I was tax commissioner in the state of Virginia, but we had a man on the Ways and
Means Committee (A. Willis Robertson) so I couldn't get on that committee."

He spoke of Appropriations as "one of the two most powerful committees--Ways and Means and
Appropriations."

"My delegation didn't have a man on Appropriations, and we wanted to get one on. The
delegation met and proposed me for the position. Mr. [Matthew M.] Neelay [D-WV] also
wanted on, but Gary won on the Ways and Means Committee by one vote--"When Senator
Robertson went off Ways and Means and a vacancy came up, I had piled up so much seniority
that I stayed here. Personally, I would have preferred the other, but I felt I could serve my
district best by staying on Appropriations"--"They are very careful in selecting members of the
Appropriations Committee--more careful than on most other committees"--"A man follows his
natural bent--most people feel that a place on the Appropriations Committee gives them more
political influence--for himself, I mean." What he means here is influence over projects in his
district--"They feel they can get more for their district--and that's true."

Why does the House always cut? Every man who's worth anything, any executive, wants to
expand his organization. He feels that it is the center of the universe--he says that he found this
out while serving in Virginia as the tax chief--he feels that this is natural, and that it is okay, but
the job of the Appropriations Committee becomes one of cutting them.

He spoke with some pride about the fact that the treasury bill had gone through from his
subcommittee untouched in the last two years.

He mentioned the Banking and Currency Committee going to conference over the housing
authority which allows for backdoor borrowing--"We won't have anybody in there to fight it."
Banking and Currency is in favor, and the Senate is in favor--even though the House, on the
floor, tacked on the Thomas amendment to take this authority to borrow out of the bill--it will get
sacked in the committee because the committee in conference is opposed to the amendment--he
was extremely exercised about backdoor borrowing and the lack of overall control over
appropriations.

"In subcommittee we take the bill up item by item. I throw out a figure and someone may name
another. I may say that sounds a little high to me or a little low to me, but I'll split the difference
with you. That's the way I operate. I like to take the subcommittee in with me. Some chairmen
take it personally if you oppose their figure. I don't."

He recalled only one change in the full committee of his subcommittee bill. This was when
Postmaster General Arthur Summerfield gave his ultimatum on mail delivery--"he said he'd stop
delivery. I said, go ahead and stop it . . . when I go downtown in my town in Virginia on a
Saturday morning no one is working. Why do we need a Saturday delivery? I was for sticking
by our guns"--but the full committee overruled the subcommittee.

"There is no politics in this committee. . . . (Regarding Mr. [Gordon] Canfield [R-NJ, the
ranking minority member of Gary's subcommittee]) I'm devoted to him, and we work very
closely together . . . when it comes to spending money I'm more tight than he is. He is more
liberal"--He went on to cite the different backgrounds--"I was brought up to believe in a balanced
budget. He was brought up where people want government to do more things for them."

When a bureau calls during the year to ask permission to use funds a little differently, he always
consults Canfield, and he checks with other members of the subcommittee. He used this as an
example of bipartisanship.

Mr. Clarence Cannon (D-MO), Chairman of Appropriations, has great influence on the
committee. He stressed the personality of the man more than the position he holds--"He's a
difficult man to work with because he's a lone wolf. He never tells you what he's going to do.
He doesn't consult with his committee, just pops out and announces things, like this Deficiency
Subcommittee. (The old system) was working just fine, and all of a sudden he goes back to the
old deficiency system. We were as surprised as people on the outside."

Regarding the Bureau of the Public Debt: "We've had a lot of trouble trying to get them into
line, trying to get them to modernize and use new methods, but they're in line now." Example:
substituting check-like bonds for the older and prettier ones.

"The Treasury is the most economical department in the Federal government. We had a
succession of secretaries interested in saving money. We have difficulty cutting them
sometimes."

In answer to the question of success and failure, he simply said--"It's the human element."

Regarding other members of the House and their attitudes: "They think we're trying to increase
our power." Then he launched into a big attack on backdoor borrowing--"the greatest threat to
fiscal soundness"--someone must look over the whole picture--it's "a Senate scheme," speaking
particularly of the development loan fund--"Appropriations should originate in the House, and
the Senate is using this as a way of getting around the law and originating things over
there."

Regarding other members he says, "deep down in their hearts they respect us."

Regarding communications with bureau people: "Yes, almost every night when I get home,
there's a communication for me from the Post Office informing me of something they want to
do." He mentioned two reasons for contact: 1) if they want to change the use of money a little,
and 2) trips taken around to various installments--"we travel around" to different places.

"This is a tough job . . . the other committees don't work as hard"--he speaks of getting home at
12 o'clock at night.

He discoursed about the Coast Guard at some length. It is held down, he said, by the
Treasury--other departments are not as frugal as the Treasury.

Regarding the omnibus bill: "frankly I never did see anything in it. The chairman wanted to try
it, and I was willing to go along and give it a try; in fact, I was the man who introduced the
resolution in full committee . . . it didn't work out very well. I was willing to give it another try,
but we jumped it"--the committee clerks apparently favored it.