Frank commentary from an unretired call girl

A Tale That Grew in the Telling

The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold. – Aristotle

A few days ago regular reader Joyce sent me this article which had me shaking my head; it’s fairly typical trafficking hype with a celebrity mouthpiece, but it was different in one way which bears note:

…Ashley Judd reveals a moving story about a 14-year-old daughter of a friend of hers who was recently forced into prostitution in Atlanta, Georgia. “Who are these men who buy children for sex?” asks Judd. “They are our fathers, they are our brothers, our husbands, uncles, cousins, and friends…it is so common”…according to The Daily Beast, 100,000 – 300,000 children between the ages of 12 and 14 years old are victims of the child sex trade in this country.

Those of us who love men and hate seeing them maligned may be so angered by Judd’s evil rhetoric that they may miss the only important aspect of this propaganda piece; I can assure Miss Judd that no man I know and certainly not my father, brother, husband or any uncle or friend (and I doubt any cousins either) has ever “bought a child for sex” or any other purpose. Nobody I knew even had any basement, attic or shed where such a slave could have been kept, and normal modern men do NOT keep slaves except in the perverted sex fantasies of Judd and her fetishist friends. Now, I think it’s highly likely that what she really means when she says “buy children for sex” is “hire prostitutes whom they may not realize are under 18”, but it isn’t what she’s saying.

The biggest danger of such rhetoric is that it plays fast and loose with the facts and the tale grows in the telling. Girls who can’t be told from legal adults become “children”, hiring for a service becomes “buying for sex” as though they were carried home in a plain brown wrapper and stored in a drawer in the nightstand, and a rare event (only about 3.54% of all prostitutes are underage) becomes a “hidden epidemic” and normal, decent men are accused en masse. But we’ve seen all that before; what makes this article unique is that it affords us the rare opportunity to catch a lie in the actual process of growth. The author says “according to the Daily Beast, 100,000 – 300,000 children between the ages of 12 and 14 years old are victims of the child sex trade in this country” and helpfully provides us a link. But if you click on that link you’ll find that’s not what the article says at all; the actual quote is “Between 100,000 and 300,000 children—primarily girls between the ages of 12 and 14—are victims of the sex trade right here in the United States.” The new claim drops “primarily” and represents all of them as being in that age range.

The “300,000 trafficked children” fantasy grew by exactly such misquotes. Its original source was a 2001 study by Richard Estes and Neil Weiner of the University of Pennsylvania which guesstimated (by questionable methodology) that “as many as 100,000-300,000 children and youth [of both sexes] are at risk for sexual exploitation” of one kind or another. Note that even if we accept the shaky methodology, this guess is for BOTH sexes, for “children and youth” (not just children), and most importantly represents those at risk of some form of “exploitation”, not currently involved in one specific form (sex trafficking). The paper is very revealing; if you peruse it you will see that Estes and Weiner rank types of “exploitation” by frequency, and that domestic and international “sex trafficking” are second and third from the bottom. Even these highly biased and excitable gentlemen believed that “sex trafficking” affected only a tiny part of their “youth at risk”. The categories are, in order from most common to least common, sexual molestation by acquaintances, sexual molestation by family members, pornography (including, apparently, just looking at porn), gay sex, stripping, sexual contributions by girls to gangs, pimped prostitution (for girls) and entrepreneurial prostitution (for boys).

Richard Estes and Neil Weiner

Reading the descriptions of these categories is a jaw-dropping experience; one wonders how the authors could possibly have been unaware of the flagrant exposure of their biases (of which there are quite a few). Just looking at porn is considered somehow exploitative and pederasty is automatically classed as exploitation even if voluntary. The inclusion of stripping in clubs and working for modeling agencies and escort services reveals that at least some of the “youth at risk” are of legal age to work in such venues, and we are told “Modeling, nude dancing, lap dancing and similar sexually provocative activities frequently are used to lure girls into prostitution; at a minimum, these activities serve as the basis for involving girls in pornography.” I’ll bet that comes as a surprise to all of my readers who have worked in strip clubs; how did I miss all those pimps hanging around “luring” girls into prostitution or porn acting? But the most telling example of bias is that, though entrepreneurial (i.e. voluntary) prostitution is listed as a category for boys, it is not for girls; Estes and Weiner automatically class all female prostitutes as involuntary, controlled and exploited!

To sum up, then, what this study actually says is “We can’t be sure because it’s really hard to count, but we think that up to 100,000 (and maybe, possibly as high as 300,000) people of both sexes from puberty until their late teens possibly may at some point come close to being sexually involved with people who are older than them, and this includes stumbling on internet porn, going to work in strip clubs to support themselves after 18, joining gangs and having older boyfriends. Of these possibilities trafficking is the least common. Oh, and we don’t accept that women can ever voluntarily engage in prostitution because they’re too stupid to be entrepreneurs; only guys are smart enough to do that.” But in the past ten years, this tale has grown considerably; the 100,000-300,000 is represented as a proper statistical estimate rather than a broad guess, and as the number currently “exploited” rather than merely “at risk”. The figure is usually said to represent only girls rather than both sexes and only “children” rather than “children, adolescents and 18-19 year old legal adults”. But worst of all, the least common of Estes and Weiner’s categories of “sexual exploitation” is represented as its entirety! The usual quote is something like “100,000-300,000 children are currently exploited by the sex trade in the United States”, which is a far cry from what the study actually says!

But it gets worse; this same study is also the source of the ubiquitous “the average age of entry into prostitution is 14” (or 13, or 12) myth which I exploded in my column of November 27th. What it actually says is that among underage street prostitutes (i.e. those who were under 18 when interviewed), “The age range of entry…for the boys…was somewhat younger than that of the girls, i.e., 11-13 years vs. 12-14 years, respectively.” However, the data published with the study does not support this conclusion; as explained in this mathematical analysis, if we assume that the study’s survey figures are reliable, the average age of entry for underage prostitutes (those of 18 or above being specifically excluded by the authors) is 15.91. The authors do not claim that most prostitutes start at 12-14, but that most underage ones do; furthermore, they don’t claim that most underage prostitutes are currently that age, only that most started at that age (and even that is incorrect). The widespread misuse is equivalent to the statement “most Americans learn to drive at 16” being warped into “most American drivers are 16.”

Combining all these distortions together finally gives us the Daily Beast’s claim, and though it would take weeks of research to pin down all the stages in the transformation (if we could find them at all), I do note that the combination of the age myth with the number myth is very recent; i.e. the claim that the victims are “primarily girls between the ages of 12 and 14” dates to this year. Finally, with the new permutation quoted at the top of this column the tall tale has attained wholly ludicrous proportions; since there are only about 5.8 million girls of 12-14 in the U.S., the fanatics are now claiming that about 5% of them are sex slaves, which I fancy is too big a whopper even for the terminally gullible who make up the bulk of the population.

63 Responses

Media statistics. Sheesh. I blasted that tripe about 30 million uninsured Americans on my blog a year ago. According to the Census Bureau, it’s 46.3 million people in the country who are uninsured (Sept 09 figures). There is no way to work the numbers so they come out to 30 million uninsured Americans.

9.5 aren’t Americans, they’re foreign-born nationals.

17.8 million have a yearly income exceeding the national average, and are thus presumed to be uninsured voluntarily.

Leaving 19 million uninsured Americans, and in that figure the Census Bureau acknowledges there are an unknown number of people who qualify for Medicaid but have chosen not to sign up for it.

Took me about five minutes to find the hard numbers. Research these days has descended to “I heard it from someone who heard it from someone else who read it in the paper, and besides, everyone knows….”

Great post. Interesting analysis of the numbers and the research, or lack thereof as the case may be.

In my own research on other topics I’ve often found the same case of “Chinese whispers” with respect to information that is presented as factual, but is in fact urban myth, in the media.

However, I remain distressed by the the fact that countless girls worldwide (as your piece points out, it’s hard to pin down the exact numbers, even in the United States), find themselves in the unfortunate position of being prostituted against their will, having been sold, trafficked, or otherwise forced into a life that is not of their choosing.

And I do wonder what kind of “man” would choose to purchase sexual “services” from a child (by child I mean anyone under the age of 18).

Most of us here being whores, parents or both, I’m pretty sure we can all agree with you on one being too many.

My beef is with politicians and neofeminists using “one is too many” as a nifty excuse to expand their power and influence, typically in ways designed specifically to do nothing else. Certainly not to help trafficking victims.

Thanks, Susan! My estimate in the “Numerology” essay linked above is 15,694 underage prostitutes in the United States, of whom an unknown number (25% would be my best guess) are free agents. That still leaves roughly 11,770 who are coerced in some way, which as you say is 11,770 too many. We feel, however, that is voluntary adult prostitution were decriminalized we would be free to report cases we heard of or suspected (e.g., clients could report underage girls as in this case from England).

And though I’m sure there are a certain number of despicable men who would willingly hire a girl below the local age of consent (which varies from 14-18 by state or country), I suspect the vast majority simply don’t know any better as we discussed here.

I have long been an advocate for legalizing prostitution. And I am enlightened by your systematic analysis of the numbers in the United States, so thank you for that.

However, I’m deeply concerned about human trafficking, particularly for the purpose of sexual exploitation of women and girls, around the world. The situation in developing countries is dire. And well it may also be sensationalized to some degree, I believe it to be a massive problem which needs to be addressed.

I’m also concerned about the amount of sexual abuse suffered by children at the hands of adults, in the form of child pornography, incest, and other forms of sexual assault.

I have been told the most horrific stories imaginable by women of all ages who have been abused, tortured, etc.

I think it’s difficult for people, including myself, to separate all of these issues one from another, when some of the lines between issues are so blurred.

In any case, I’m pleased to have stumbled upon your blog, which I will continue to follow with interest 🙂

It is sensationalized, but it does certainly exist and in far higher numbers than in the United States. Of course, that’s largely because of poverty; countries in which the levels of poverty are highest are among those most closely associated with slavery because people are so desperate to get out of such countries that they’re willing to take risks which sometimes turn out to be ill-advised. Some modern slave traders use the same trick the Japanese army did in World War II: Promise a good job as a nanny, secretary or whatever to get the girl to come quietly and then she only finds out her real fate when it’s too late. What’s more, some Asian cultures lack the whore-stigma of Western ones, so many girls from those countries may consider prostitution as a perfectly reasonable ticket to Europe. Rescue organizations assume ALL foreign prostitutes are “trafficked” victims, but the evidence does not support that (Laura Agustin’s blog covers such issues quite well).

An even bigger problem, though, is that due to the appeal of the lurid to the Western mind, sexual slavery or abuse get far more attention and funds than non-sexual slavery and abuse which are both more common and more harmful. In the United States physical abuse of children is vastly more common than sexual abuse, yet most of the money goes to the latter because of its lurid appeal. There’s even strong evidence that most of the psychological damage from sexual abuse derives mostly from related stress (attendant physical abuse, hysterical reactions of adults, children subjected to invasive questioning by strangers, etc) than from the actual abuse; I’ll discuss that in Tuesday’s column.

I think it’s difficult for people, including myself, to separate all of these issues one from another, when some of the lines between issues are so blurred.

That’s very true; you’d be surprised how many escorts are even confused by it. As long as consensual adult prostitution remains illegal, it’s very difficult to tell what’s consensual and what isn’t. “In the dark all cats are gray”, as they say. Well, we need to shine some light in here so people can tell which are tabbies, which are calico and which black.

And though I’m sure there are a certain number of despicable men who would willingly hire a girl below the local age of consent (which varies from 14-18 by state or country)…

For once I have to take exception, Maggie. It seems to me that if a girl/woman is sexually mature, she’s old enough to make her own decisions regarding sex, both for fun and romance and in exchange for money. If adjacent territories have ages of consent that differ, one 14 and one 18, say, does it make sense to say that it’s fine to hire a 17-year-old on one side of the line, but is “despicable” if the parties move a few feet over and are now on the other side of the line? I don’t see any logic in that.

I’m not going to praise men who chase after very young women, but to me the notion of “statutory rape” is an abomination of law, treating something voluntary as if it were coercive.

I’ve already stated that I wouldn’t have any moral qualms about hiring a sixteen year old Japanese girl doing enjo kosai. Legal qualms sure (I really don’t relish the idea of being in jail or prison… in another country… for messing with the womenfolk… who are the same age as the other prisoners’ daughters…).

If a man knows a girl is below the age of consent, he’s certainly playing with fire by having sex with her (whether for pay or otherwise). And though I consider the absolute assumption that someone under that age is automatically incompetent to be absurd, there’s no way for a man who has just met a girl to know her relative level of maturity. In other words, unless he knows the girl personally or she fools him into thinking she’s overage, it is both prudent and moral for him to presume that an underage girl isn’t really thinking her actions through as thoroughly as the average adult would.

Here in the UK there is a concept in law where in the case of sex with a girl below the age of consent, once the man reaches a certain age he may no longer rely on the defence that he was uncertain of her true age.

However, as Maggie has said elsewhere, her “physical” age was often overestimated based on appearance at 25, while her chronoloigcal age was 17. I’m going go out on a limb here and say that at 15 maybe Maggie looked 20.

In the UK it would have been quite illegal for any man to sleep with “20” year old Maggie (aged 15 chronologically) but for an older guy, he would have no defense by saying she looked 20.

This, of course, says nothing about the maturity of the woman in question, but relies on her age as a guide to it.

Having seen some of the recent pictures of you on your twitter feed, Maggie, I’ll bet you were stunning back then, too. 😉

We got age of consent laws via the same process you deplore with regard to sex trafficking: overhyping the numbers.

Prior to the industrial revolution, age of consent laws were largely unheard of. There usually wasn’t any need for it, since men were typically in view of their wives all day long. He was either in the field working, with the wife in the house taking care of kids, the household, etc., or if he ran a cottage business he was in the shop downstairs, often with the wife upstairs dealing with the household or in the shop as well. So there was little opportunity to cheat.

Then came the industrial revolution, and suddenly, instead of working 12 hour days all week to make $1 in profit, he could walk a mile or two to the factory and earn a $1 a day. Well, that was sure a better deal, so a lot of men did it. And gee, they were a lot more prosperous now, so he’d stop off at the local bar on the way home for a drink with his work buddies. And that’s where he’d meet Tammy (or whomever), a teen aged prostitute, usually an orphan and desperate for money (remember, this was after the civil war, so a lot of dads were dead, the death rate in industry was quite high – from 1890 to 1900 10,000 people died per year working on the railroads alone, and pre antibiotic medicine so many died from disease). Well, he’s doing OK, and the wife isn’t taking care of him any more, so he hires her a few times. After a while, they’re in love, he saves a bit back from the job until he has a good sum, and the two of them would leave the area, with him abandoning his family to start over with Tammy. Remember, this was pre-information age, so no SSN. Literally a 12 hour train ride and a 30 minute walk and you disappeared from your old life and you would not be found.

So married women started agitating for age of consent laws because of the “epidemic” of family men abandoning their family to run off with young women. In other words, we have age of consent laws because wives in their 30s and 40s didn’t want to have to compete sexually with young women in their teens. While the above scenario happened on occasion, it wasn’t anywhere near an “epidemic”, the numbers were heavily hyped. But many women feared it could happen to them, and they wanted a legal means to prevent it. This was also used as one of the excuses for making prostitution illegal.

But here’s the ultimate in stupid with age of consent laws. What we, society, supposedly want, is for young adults (mainly women) to not have sex, primarily to prevent pregnancy. So we’re mainly interested in getting young women like Tammy to say no, but when she says yes, even if the man doesn’t know her age and she could pass for legal, it’s the man who goes to prison. Now just how are we going to get Tammy to say no when she isn’t penalized for her supposedly undesired actions? I know of one young woman, who at the ripe old age of 12 could pass for legal without any problem (and would claim to be 17, which was legal in her state), and she’d put 3 men in prison before turning 13. She liked sex, wanted to have it, she’d admit to it being consensual and to lying about her age, but was unconcerned about putting the men in prison because she knew there was always some guy who would have sex with her. The men, knowing they had not forced her, and believing her to be of legal age, would freely admit to having sex with her. The law doesn’t care that she passes for the age she claimed to be, and the fact that the men believed that they were having sex with a woman of legal age does not matter; because she’s actually under age, he goes to prison.

All this big mess (what Maggie is discussing plus what I’ve added here) is wrapped up in an untidy package, and we (society) needs to fix it. I think Maggie’s doing a good job as far as educating people about the lies spread about trafficking, as well as the lies about underaged prostitution, and I hope one day we’ll have a society that stops criminalizing natural, consensual behavior and actually DEALS with human sexuality as something that needs to be understood and properly appreciated, and not be a topic to be concealed from the young.

The violation of one individual’s rights equals the violation of all individual rights…..but the violation of more individuals’ rights does not give that one individual their rights back.

I can tell you from 13 years experience as a sex worker that men who would intentionally hire an underage prostitute are extremely few and far between. Let’s just pretend for the moment that the moral dilemma this presents is nonexistant. The vast majority of gentlemen have much to lose (job, marriage, freedom, etc) and would never intentionally risk everything by hiring an underage hooker, even if it is a fantasy of theirs.

“On the other hand, there are other experiences and other views; they are equally valid, and equally true. The way we see the world is shaped by our own experience, different experiences create different perspectives, all of which may be right. It’s a paradox. There is no universal truth….”

She is ardently anti-prostitution and frequently cites the experiences and views of this ex-prostitute blogger here: http://rmott62.wordpress.com/

Are this woman’s experiences and views less valid than yours and Maggie’s? I think not…

Susan, the way you can tell if an ex-prostitute’s experiences as described are sincere is if she describes them as HER experiences and no one else’s. The one you linked calls herself a “survivor”, which is a red flag; it’s a term from the neofeminist prohibition movement, which means they may have potentially convinced her to “reframe her experiences“, i.e. lie. Does she claim that all or nearly all clients were cruel, that ALL prostitutes have the same experiences as her, that “pro-prostitution” activists are employed by the “pimp lobby”? If so, then you can’t trust a word she’s written because it’s all rhetoric from the “antis”. But if her experiences seem unique, that she says (as I do) that she can only speak for herself, that other women’s experiences are different and she’s only one case (or knew of a few others), then she’s very likely telling the truth.

It isn’t what an ex-pro says which lets me know whether she’s being honest; Jill Brenneman‘s experiences are easily as horrific as those of any anti-mouthpiece I’ve ever heard. But Jill knows her experience was highly unusual, and represents it as such. Those who claim the horror is universal are lying, though not of their own volition; they’ve been brainwashed into thinking such lies will save other women from a similar fate. It’s exploitation of the most revolting kind. 😦

And I do wonder what kind of “man” would choose to purchase sexual “services” from a child (by child I mean anyone under the age of 18).

Well, I do consider myself a man, and so I think I’ll expand on this a bit. I wouldn’t want to hire anybody who was coerced, either in the “or I’ll kill you” sense or by economic desperation. That’s not just children, or teens (who I’m sorry but they are not children). That’s anybody. I don’t care if she’s thirteen or thirty, I don’t want to hire her if she isn’t in this business by choice.

Now, how about willing, have-other-options-if-they-wanted-them prostitutes? Well, if she’s ten years old, I’m still not interested. Girls that young don’t appeal to me, and even if I could get away with it and knew it was her dream, I a( wouldn’t be attracted to her that way and b) wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I fucked a little girl.
What if she’s sixteen, say one of those enjo kosai girls in Tokyo? I might be worried about law enforcement, but I wouldn’t have any moral qualms about hiring her. She’s not forced or poverty-stricken, she just wants to earn the money for that imported handbag in a few hours instead of in a few weeks. At sixteen she’s old enough to know what she wants, and if she wants to have sex with me (yes, even for the money instead of because I’m foreign and exotic) I don’t have moral qualms about that. If she’s twelve, yeah I’ve got qualms and wouldn’t do it.

We took pictures of the native girls, but they weren’t developed. But we’re going back next year.
— Groucho Marx

“Who are these men who buy children for sex?” asks Judd. “They are our fathers, they are our brothers, our husbands, uncles, cousins, and friends “it is so common”

Yes Maggie. Us men must listen to these lies and wimminz get ‘upset’ when we deny them and call the women spewing this hatred liars.

I was in Germany just before the 2006 world cup. Remember. Prostitution is legal here. There were ‘estimates’ of 40,000 to 50,000 women were going to be ‘trafficked’ to Germany for the world cup. In the end? Eight people were ‘saved’ from ‘trafficking’ and one of them was even a man. Um? A slight over exaggeration in the media?

In the UK. If a woman caught committing protitution? She is given a choice. If she says it is voluntary she will be deported, likely with a stamp in her passport never to return, and gets a criminal record in the UK. If she claims she was ‘trafficked’ she gets a house, a comfortable welfare check and permanent residency. Um? Does it surprise anyone there are quite a few prostitutes claiming they were ‘trafficked’? No evidence is necessary of course.

Us men are sick of these lies. We really are. I am one speaking out about it. Many men are too afraid because the minute a man says ‘these are lies’ women shriek “You support trafficking women and sex slavery” like denying lies is equivalent to being a ‘monster’.

Having read this entry, I shall spread your blog far and wide. I assume this is agreeable to you.

Actually. A friend told me that after the world cup in germany some smaller newspapers carried some stories about how the prostitutes were pissed off that the men were more interested in the football than the girls and many went home for holidays because business was so bad.

There was, apparently, a really big new ‘mens-club’ called Artemis built in Berlin and opened just before the world cup. I recall this as I was working at a client and one system that was integral to our work was called ‘Artemis’. We laughed our arses off when we heard that ‘the biggest brothel in Germany’ as it was billed would have the same name as our computer system! LOL!

I recall we just laughed about how the men were more interested in the beer and football than the women…..I didn’t really give it a passing thought again until now.

One other funny thing. In these clubs they have saunas and stuff. About 2.5 years ago a guy who was into his 80s managed to die of a heart attack in the sauna. Apparently AFTER the deed. It was in the local papers. This was a topic of much humour among us guys. It was like “If I was to die at 80+ in the sauna at a club having just been ‘entertained’ by a beautiful young woman? That would be just fine with me.”

The one woman whom I have allowed on that site? She’s a grandmother whos daughter refuses to allow her to see her grandchildren. Shes actually been up in front of the same criminal magistrate as me and roundly and soundly denounces him as a total scumbag. He has insulted her and demeaned her for nothing more than wanting to see her own grand child.

I told her that if she wanted my advice she would go and smack her daughter a good one, take the children into her care because her daughter is obviously a bad mother, have people around to video the event and when the cops come challenge them to beat up a grandmother on video or get the hell out of the house. She just might do that too.

I am so impressed with this post. You are the second only woman to this fine woman to make our CAF site. And it’s going to be a very busy site very soon.

Thank you for your defense of men in this article and your exposure of the complete bullshit this ‘factoid from nowhere’ really is. The sad fact is that these ‘factoids from nowhere’ are being repeated so often by ‘celebrities’ and women are so brain dead that they actually believe them and then are ‘fearful’ of men. This is often discussed on the spearhead.

I may have said this before, but there’s a sort of Peter Principle to these numbers. The worse research you do, the more outlandish your numbers will be and the more the media will pay attention to them. But there’s also, as Susan said, a chinese whispers effect where a tentative claims gets blown up to a huge lie. Reminds of the classic comic (http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1174) on the Science News Cycle (which I’ve seen from the inside).

“There is no such thing as prostitution which is freely chosen and consenting”, Bachelot declared. “The sale of sexual acts means that women’s bodies are made available, for men, independently of the wishes of those women.”

Apparently you women are too retarded and infantile to be responsible for your own bodies.

Damn. If some man said this shit about me? I’d go beat the shit out of the f***er for insulting me. I really would. This is demeaning on the greatest scale. Isn’t it?

You’re welcome, Friend. As I have stated many times that men and women are different, complementary and equally important in the function of society, and any society which places one sex too far above the other is sowing the seeds of its own eventual downfall. One of the main reasons Islamic societies are so chaotic and violent is that they place men too far above women, and our society is headed the other direction, which is equally dangerous. 😦

She is speaking the truth. And us men have so few allies among women who are prepared to speak the truth.

On this topic? It was reported a little while ago a small girl fell into a pond and drowned in scottland. A man came forward and said he had seen the girl alone but did not take her into his care for fear of being called a paedophile.

In Melbourne, Australia on The Age blog? A man posted that he saw a boy about 5 pushing a small baby in a stroller up one of the busiest streets in Melbourne. He reported he refused to help the child for fear of being labelled a paedophile. Fate of the two small children unknown.

A man also posted that he was a counsellor for children of divorce. Unknown to him one of the teen girls he was allocated to counsell had been told by her mother that she must not speak to him any more. When the girl was caught out by the mother she claimed that the counsellor had raped her. The man spent three months in jail ‘for the protection of women’. When he finally got out he quit. He was vehment as to how an honest man who is only trying to help children is labelled a rapist and thrown in jail when it is f***ing OBVIOUS the girlw was lying to escape punishment from the mother. No women helped him. No women denounced the mother or the girl. No compensation was paid. No charges were laid against the mother or the girl.

Another case from Australia. A man was in an acrimonious divorce. His wife and a friend cooked up a story of paedophilia against his daughter. Only problem was that he was a pilot and was on a run at the time stated. No problem. The ‘judge’ refused to allow that little bit of evidence to be presented to the jury. You know, the evidence the women were lying bitches. He rotted in jail for 7 months before his retrial and his obvious acquittal. What did the NEWSPAPER HEADLINE say?

“PAEDOPHILE ESCAPES JUSTICE”

I kid you not.

Us men are sick to death of being labelled paedophiles and rapists. We are sick to death that it is a RARITY that a woman will speak out and call these lies the lies they are. This is one reason I am so disgusted at western women.

Maggie should NOT be unusual. But unusual she is because she is speaking the truth.

Peter linked to this post on the Spearhead… after reading it I’m adding your blog to my list. Not enough people are willing to confront dangerous falsehoods head-on, and do a thorough job refuting them.

I’m convinced there’s a lot of personal animosity and hatred of male options / female competition in the intense dislike of prostitution. I’m also convinced that the difference between most relationships and the time johns spend with providers is minimal. I used to think men who went to prostitutes were losers; not so much any more.

I’m not a likely source for commentary – I’ve never actually paid for sex, neither am I likely to have to, though there are times when the simplicity of it seems appealing. But I have one experience that provided me with a wealth of second-hand insight that changed all of my views completely.

And it gave me contempt for mainstream activism against “sex work” (whatever that catch-all happens to mean today).

So I’ll try to sum it up in brief form.

I lived in Korea for several years. It was after my divorce, and I was just getting into my stride. I unlearned everything I knew about women and stopped blaming my wife (Everyone thought I was a model husband, my wife couldn’t articulate what was wrong), and started to get it. And in Korea, I went on what, for all intents and purposes, was a feast.

One of the prettiest and sweetest women I met, who I’ll call Mina, was friendly with me, very flirtatious. Like a greedy moth to a flame, I thought – zazing, this is one to catch. I knew her through professional contacts. We got along well, and hung out alone twice. The third time, she invited me out to lunch – and following the normal script of such things, I thought it might lead somewhere. She was surprisingly resistant, for having seemed interested. By this time, I thought I knew how to evade a woman’s “I don’t want to seem like a slut” response, but she was still very reluctant, though she appeared to really like me.

It turns out she was a high-class call girl; she admitted it to me over lunch the fourth time we met, when I’d decided to find out what was up. She was 26, extremely pretty, a knockout dresser and educated; I’d put it all down to family money and background. But she made more in a month entertaining a client or two on weekends than I did in three. When I found out how much she charged I nearly gagged, it was a ridiculous sum of money (though not always so big – it turns out there are different “ranges” and experiences customers are after; some bring big bucks and barely involve much at all, other things are demanding and may not even pay comparatively well; the logic of it never did make sense to me). She led a relatively fancy life and was cheerful and very happy, seemingly well-adjusted; I assumed it was family money. It turns out, she had very little contact with her family. She went to university for a blah-blah degree in social sciences and languages, hated office work, and quite liked what she had stumbled into.

Every single stereotype rushed to the front of my brain: Slut, the socially negative connotations of “whore”, selling herself and her sex for money. Drugs. Addict. Most of all, VICTIM, who didn’t know she was one.

What a retarded bastard I was.

But when I was honest with her, including about all of my presumptions, instead of her getting angry, or disappointed, she did something that shocked me: she didn’t beg off or excuse herself or act ashamed or even get angry at my attitude – She argued with me. She pointed out:

– She was not abused. She made every decision.
– She made every decision, and was happy with it.
– She made every decision. Sometimes, she worked when she didn’t want to, for the money; but in what way was that different from anyone else? I was a bigger whore on that score.
– She was uninjured, and could have normal relations with men (this was true, and untrue; more later).
– She had boyfriends, who often knew what she was doing.
– She didn’t begrudge me my right to judge, or get upset at anything I said: this was Korea; they aren’t infected with PC relativism: there’s a Right and a Wrong, and you can do Wrong so long as you keep Face, but there’s no doubt as to what’s right and what’s not: I could judge if I wanted to, but she wanted me to know the truth anyway. She was really matter-of-fact. It garnered respect.
– She didn’t need my approval.

A 1-hour lunch meeting to chat and catch up (and maybe me trying to pick her up) turned into a 12-hour epic meeting that went late into the night, and was lively. We had stares from a few guys who wanted to know what was going on, in a verbal sparring (interspersed with laughter and other emotions). When we parted, we’d smashed through some personal barrier – we were friends in the truest sense.
That’s remained true ever since. I didn’t know it, but this drove the nail into the coffin of what I thought I knew about women and men. And she was right: She had me reprogramed within days. She knew men and male sex better than I did. Of course, I only had the one tool to play with. She had an advantage.

So I rethought a lot of things, as I’d previously done after my divorce. At that time, I’d abandoned my preconceived notions that women liked nice, Feminized guys – no, my wife went off and had a string of bad relationships with jerks and assholes. I’d been a super-indulgent husband and it had unconsciously sent her around the bend. But this time, the rest of my illusions were shattered thoroughly. I came to the conclusion:

The only difference between her and the other women I knew there was, … From a man’s perspective, …

Absolutely nothing.

Except that she wasn’t a hypocritical, self-indulgent, delusional manipulator. All of her manipulation was entirely above-board and just the normal shit people do to each other, not part of some gendered power-play or script of deceit and lies.

Other women were, depending on how attractive they were, demanding, pushy, and they absolutely used sex as a negotiating tool: Presents, time on trips, commitment – it was all negotiated in a barter exchange on some not quite hidden level.

When I listened to Korean women talk to each other (beware foreigners – they can learn your language; American women would watch what they said around me, Koreans assumed my Korean was bad enough I couldn’t understand), the content of the conversations backed up this coldly calculating reality most women lived.

And half the women I was with were married. From the outside, you’d *never* guess they were the “type” to cheat; the conversations I had with them about their lives and men let me see things that life had not prepared me for.

At one point after we’d known each other for about 4 months, Mina and I went out drinking and I got to talking about a minor frustration. I had difficulty having orgasms if I wasn’t comfortable (or something), and this had freaked the living hell out of a woman I’d been seeing for about 2 months and had just broken up with. She got hyper-sensitive about it, which in turn just made me not want to bother trying. The ex had literally lost all sense of self-worth: Men should be easy. It was a direct line to her sense of well-being. I asked Mina if this was common – she said, no, but she didn’t have thousands of “clients”, so she said anything’s possible. She joked that men were all basically the same – fifteen minutes with her and I’d know more about myself than a year with anyone else. Alcohol and comfort ended with us in bed.*

*I still feel the need to excuse this by bringing in alcohol – interesting how the stigma lingers even now. It really is deeply cultural. I can’t just say I spent the night with an extremely attractive woman I knew well. It’s bizarre, because I did the same with lots of other women – but in this case, I need to qualify it, even when writing it anonymously. Amazing.

Anyway, it turns out I could have gone to bed with her at *any* time – it was all me. I admitted I couldn’t get over the fact that she slept with men for (large sums of) money. She actively liked me and liked my company and considered me Boyfriend In Waiting and had done so for about a month. I hadn’t thought about it, but she’d given up valuable free time to spend with me; I’d written off a relationship of any kind, of course, and just thought I had a pretty woman to hang out with, while I dated others.

Koreans never use the word “love” – almost never – there’s a host of other euphemisms they use. “Comfort” and “deep familiarity” would translate well as concepts. She sent me a bunch of texts like a schoolgirl the next day, asked to see me the next night, and was – in every possible way – exactly like any other woman excited to be with a man she liked. She got angry at me three days later when I didn’t return a phone call all day (Koreans do this thing with texting and phones, it’s just bizarre – not contacting someone back immediately is a huge insult, which is fine until they message you a dozen times before lunch).

After 4 months of seeing her on and off (bearing in mind I was still in Sowing Oats phase, and was seeing another woman from time to time, as well), this is what I learned:

– It was hugely liberating being with someone in bed who wasn’t inhibited, was genuine but experienced. I’ve been 20 years old, and one of the advantages of not being 20 is not having to fumble around or take myself or a woman too seriously. I have no idea how many men she’d been with or in how many situations – I can guestimate, but it’s safe to say it was a lot – but with me, it was all genuine and unstressful and relaxed and *completely unpretentious* and without hidden agendas.
– The lack of hidden agendas has to be stressed. There was a level of honesty in everything we did that went so far beyond the couched relationships I had with other women at the time, it made everything else seem trite.
– She was able to be friends.
– She didn’t begrudge me sowing oats. I never asked her about work unless she offered information. She actually talked about it a lot.
– I was discreet. If it was known that she hung out with foreigners, it would kill her business – she could kiss the Money goodbye. Scraps would be what she’d have to live on. Korean men assume that foreigners bring disease; of course, their “business trips” to Thailand and the Philippines don’t. Hypocrisy knows no national colors.

– I will say this for dating a woman working in this field: She was absurdly good and creative in bed. I’ve never laughed, been as ridiculous, or rarely had hotter sex in bed than I did with Mina.

– In every way, except for the naked honesty, and lack of excruciating expectations, it was like every other relationship I’ve had. Different, in some ways – but not impossible.

As for anything long-term, I was in no state for it (it’s taken a few years) and I *still* can’t get over the fact that she’s seen more strange than me – many times.

When I talk to MRM and conservative guys, they stress the need to find semi-virginal girls who will bond to you and have good morals.

Well, I’ll say this for my only experience:

– Was Mina, if with me long-term, more likely to cheat on me (assuming she was retired)?

Half the women I was with in Korea were married. The woman I practically lived with in France was married – though this was France and her husband had a lady friend, what a country. Two women I’ve dated here in the US were married, neither of whom I knew were married when we started seeing each other.

Was Mina more likely to cheat than these otherwise utterly normal women? Evaluate that.

– Was Mina damaged? Well, she did have some limitations. One thing: both good and bad, she sort-of saw it as a job to make sure I was happy; sex was a mutually enjoyable thing, but it got into a routine: sex was expected. In other relationships, it was always negotiated; with Mina, she was almost permanently obliging. She seemed to think that keeping me exhausted was the way to making me happy.

She was half right. But the feeling that she was doing it as an obligation or an assumption made me uncomfortable. She explained to me: Men like sex, don’t lie, and it’s not a job when I’m with you, and if it is, sometimes you have to work for me, too, so stop thinking so much.

The truth is, she knew more about me than I thought.

Marrying this woman would have done this: It would have meant I reliably got lots of very good sex. I’d have to pony up like in any relationship, but there was no sign of the normal “I fucked you, now give me the following 50 things before noon or I’ll start complaining”. That was a total shock to me. I have no idea if that would have continued.

Good things:

– Mina was thoroughly comfortable demanding – not asking for – what she wanted in bed. And also saying – not tonight, can’t we do something else? I want to sit up all night hearing stories about X or Y or go on a midnight ride to Namsan Mountain and stand there looking out over the city. It was so gloriously human in every respect – when I hear women (mostly women) talk about whores, I look at them and wonder – do they actually have conversations with any sex workers, strippers, high-end call girls, street walkers, drug-addicts or “escorts”?

In fact, I got an extra dose of “human interaction” with her.

– She told me endless stories about men. I heard them all. I heard about the time a major politician got embarrassed (yet she never mentioned his name – I work in media, after all, she was discreet that way, and I never once asked), and gave her 10000000 won (about $10,000) to shut up and quietly leave the city for a month because she’d been caught in a photograph with him; turns out it wasn’t her, but she kept the 10k, and the secret.

She told me other things, too:

– A lot of her female friends weren’t involved in anything like the sex trade, on any level. She had one friend who gravitated down; substance abuse, all kinds of shit. Mina drank like a fish – ie Korean – and could drink me under the table – ie, Korean – but didn’t even smoke; she banked her money and by 27, after doing this for 3 years, was more than comfortably well-off. Her friends thought she was working for a company somewhere. Office-lady, receptionist, whatever; she took a few jobs from time to time out of interest or for other benefits. That’s how I’d met her initially (she was working as a meetings/corporate socializing co-ordinator’s assistant, which is what she mostly did; this sort of thing is a big deal in Korea/China where personal connections are literally everything; being pretty and 24-26 was huge).

But her friends, she said, and she illustrated, were deeply and profoundly hypocritical.

I can’t read anything in the media about “trafficking” or “prohibition” or “moral decay” without remembering a thousand and four conversations I had with her about the things she noticed.

SHE thought these things were peculiar to Korean society, where two-facedness is raised to a high artform.

In fact, they’re universal. Lots of Americans are the same.

To this day, we’re still friends. She’s retired from her lifestyle, more or less, though she’s well-placed to earn small fortunes still if she wants to. She doesn’t need to work.

I was in Korea in the fall, and I met up with her a few times. She’s seeing a nice Aussie, who knows about her past, doesn’t care, and wants to bring her to Australia. She’s keen to go. She never got to travel much. She calls me her ex-BF, stays in touch (but only appropriately), and I met the two of them together. Her BF is profoundly decent, and seems to treat her really well. She appears to still be able to relate to men.

I’m sure it’s not always like this – but to make blanket statements seems to me to be incredibly arrogant. I never judge what women do now; but I find the hypocrisies of normal middle-class Americans hard to bear.

I’m wary about recounting this tale to people, because the automatic judgment of conservatives is to call this whole episode, well, many things, and then liberals say so much bullshit it’s just not worth discussing it with them. I mentioned it to one woman casually, in a “what if” kind-of way, and she basically called me a rapist. She honestly considered my whole time with Mina the equivalent of forced stranger-rape at knifepoint.

And what could *I* say? In the time I was in Korea and China (later), I broke two hearts, shamelessly, and was a sowed more oats than horses eat. I had no shame. I flaunted it (oddly, it seemed to attract some women, and others found numerous truly ingenious ways to excuse it). THAT was okay, but what Mina did was disgusting?

I know college girls here who have been to bed with a dozen men a year for four years – and more – and they’re better than Mina?

Women I work with have no compunction about going home with a guy they’ve just met – often days or A day after they did the same thing with another guy. I know one very respectable woman dating two men simultaneously – and sleeping with them both, unbeknownst to either.

So Mina was a whore, but these other women are somehow pure and unsullied? What kind of bullshit is that?

Hardly seems fair.

And I learned more in a few years about women and the lies they live than I had in the rest of my life. And I don’t care what people say: Mina was a truly decent human being. She’d make a better wife and mother, frankly, than lots of wives and mothers I know.

This isn’t going to be true of everyone – but that’s a useless thing to say. Sure, there are victims on the streets. Whatever. Nuance is everything.

Also, I learned something about men: Women I can learn about on my own, given exposure, but I’ve got only anecdotal experience with other men (that I know) and I only really know myself (if I do). So her insight was incredible.

Gorbachev,
you know. You make me think I should try meeting some of these women just to talk to them and find out a bit about them.

I may had had a similar experience. I don’t really know. I was staying at the Villa Kennedy one time and my lady friend was coming over a little later. I went to the gym for an hour, swam for a bit, and then was relaxing in the spa bath.

This woman comes along. Man. She was off the charts. She gets straight into the spa with me which I thought was strange. So I say hi and start to chat. She is really lovely and friendly. She asked me what I do for a living etc. I didn’t realise until later she was trying to find out if I had money.

When I ask her what she does she was very evasive. She tells me she has decided that she needs a long weekend at the VK to relax (it was friday) and so she had treated herself to the weekend. I picked her then as a hooker looking for business men. They are very common in the top hotels. (I lived in hotels a lot) So I tell her that I have a lady friend coming to close out that discussion.

She just smiled and said that ‘maybe I will see you later’

And as she got out she wiggled her backside in the sexiest of manners and she strutted off knowing full well I would be taking close note. The message was clear “I am hotter than your lady friend, take a chance on me”.

But. Like your comment. I was struck at how charming she was. She was not like your ‘average’ woman at all. I am pretty sure she was a prostitute.

Gorbachev, thank you for this post. I’ll be very honest: When I saw its length my immediate reaction was that I was looking at a manifesto, and I do not allow manifestos because this is MY blog and not a springboard for whoever wants to come along and promote whatever. You should see the astonishing length of some of the spam trapped by Akismet which never sees the light of day.

But I gave you the benefit of the doubt and really enjoyed your reply despite its length. I encourage you to repost it where more anti-whore men’s activists will see it, because they need to; in a column next week I’ll talk about how self-destructive it is for MRAs to insult, belittle and dismiss us as I’ve seen many do.

Your post speaks for itself, so my only comment will be on one particular passage:

When I talk to MRM and conservative guys, they stress the need to find semi-virginal girls who will bond to you and have good morals.

Well, I’ll say this for my only experience:

– Was Mina, if with me long-term, more likely to cheat on me (assuming she was retired)?

Half the women I was with in Korea were married. The woman I practically lived with in France was married – though this was France and her husband had a lady friend, what a country. Two women I’ve dated here in the US were married, neither of whom I knew were married when we started seeing each other.

Was Mina more likely to cheat than these otherwise utterly normal women? Evaluate that.

The idea that virgins won’t cheat is total bullshit, the OPPOSITE of truth, but guys cling to it with a death grip. Let me tell you a story. Once I went to my photographer’s house because he was taking me to dinner; he and I had become friends when he was doing the pictures for my website and I enjoyed his social company. Well, when I got there he was on the phone, so while I waited I picked up the only reading material in arm’s reach, which was a copy of Men’s Health magazine. I paged through it fairly briskly, looking for something which might sustain my interest for a few minutes, and encountered a quiz called “Which One Will Cheat?” It was written by a psychologist and proposed three hypothetical women: A virgin who married right out of school, a career woman and a woman who had been openly and unrepentantly promiscuous. All other factors being equal, the article asked, which was most likely to cheat?

Just then my friend got off the phone and I put the magazine down. He immediately said, “I saw you looking at that article; which one do you think?”

“The virgin, of course,” I said.

He was dumbfounded. “That’s exactly what they said! How do you get that?”

“Because many virgins become curious about what they ‘missed out on’ and they have no experience with male bullshit so it’s easy for a cad to talk them into bed. And since they don’t know the difference between sex and love such affairs are very dangerous to the marriage.”

Ex-whores are if anything the LEAST likely women to cheat; we’ve been there, done that, got the T-shirt and are completely unimpressed. We’re not going to be talked into the sack by good-looking playboys and we don’t confuse sex with emotions. But most guys would rather cling to their barbarian fantasies of deflowering virgins; as I’ve said many times before, some things are a very good fantasy but a very bad reality.

Thanks again for your story. But in the future, sugar, try to keep your posts a little smaller, OK? You don’t want to freak your hostess out by parking a 40-foot RV in her driveway every time. 😉

I had the impression that one thing was abundantly true: Mina was utterly unimpressed with guys who tried to win her over with cash, good looks, status or anything else. I wasn’t a super tall hot stuff and neither was I a spectacular playboy (perhaps a minor playboy). I was just interesting. What cemented the whole process was 1) Not sleeping with her right away when I had the chance, and actually *socializing with her as a normal human being*. Of course, I was hugely attracted to her – I have testicles and she was hot – but i kept that on the side-burner because of her job.

PS, I’ll try to keep it all down to mini-manifestos.

The first time she kissed me was incredibly cute: we were both nervous. She might have been faking, but there was no reason for me to think she was.

As fart as cheating goes, I was pretty sure she wasn’t fucking anyone else when she was seeing me (while *I* was), aside from men she was paid to sleep with.

She had it pretty compartmentalized in her brain.

I occupied a different space.

Had I been on less of a rampage and had more forward-thinking views, I’d have considered her differently.

As it was, we weren’t exactly compatible as mates; but there was one thing that was definitely true:

She remains one of the most genuinely decent people I’ve ever met. Also, the only emotionally honest woman on that level I’ve ever known.

Every minute she spent with me was wholly voluntary on her part. She never asked me to marry her, rescue her, or pay for her. She was with me for exactly one reason:

She liked being with me. Period.

That was immensely freeing.

Of course, we also had lots of sex; but from the perspective of hindsight, this was just a bonding tool.

I often wondered if she was sleeping with me because this is what women should do with men they like, or because this was how she thought men wanted her first; she wasn’t just mechanically into sex, though. It seemed like a genuine thing.

For me, it was really weird; While apparently about her and me, it was also clearly “just sex” much of the time; meaning she had a very matter-of-fact way about it, even when she was horny.

She changed my attitude towards sex, among other things.

One thing that became immediately true: All the other women I’ve been with have unwittingly benefited from this.

I’d have trusted her long-term, were we together. But with that kind of relationship, an occasional dalliance with another woman would have likely not registered with her: What she wanted was a BF (I assume, eventually a mate); a companion.

it stuns me that so many people are still wrapped up in convenient delusions.

Maggie, it is great Gorbachev came over here. He is very well known in the MRA area. I am hoping Bernard Chapin will also have time to drop by.

Bernard just passed 1M views on his channel and is the man doing the most to talk to young men in their own language. Because he is libertarian his view on prostitution is (I believe) ‘what you do in your house is no business of mine’.

I’m not going to send you any hate mail! I enjoyed reading your story, to be honest. I do want to point out something: it’s possible for a woman to be with more than 1 man at a time and both of them know about it. I’m thinking back to you talking about the woman seeing 2 men at once and having sex with them both, etc. I saw others outside of my main relationship for a # of years for sex only and every person I met was told about my fiance, etc. I wouldn’t have done it any other way. It was part of our arrangement and still is. I hated ANY lying and, unfortunately, that happened to me several times. BUT, I did meet a few GOOD men who didn’t lie, did return phone calls, etc. All the bad experiences, time searching, etc., were worth it to meet the few good men! I’m just wanting to point out that not ALL women are lying about these things if they do them, have an arrangement, etc. Thanks for listening and for sharing your story.

The middle class activists think that they’re worried about tens of thousands of children in the US working as sex slaves.

Whatever.

There aren’t anything like that many; I’d be shocked if it was 1% of that number.

What this whole “Trafficking” Moral Panic is all about is power. The full powers of the state, in the name of protecting the sexual rights and powers (to deny men options) are going to be directed at these targets in their fullest extent:

– Men marrying women from abroad
– prostitutes and call girls who aren’t in abusive situations
– Men who step out on their wives (though not women who do the same – and man, do they ever)

and

– Men who sleep with women “too young”, with “too young” being variously defined for the convenience of older women who can’t be bothered to try to interest their husbands in sex.

I’m dating/living with a woman 10 years younger than me. I’m not yet 40. And yet, my own sister (my own age) has been throwing out snide comments for months to the effect that I’m not “Man Enough” to be with a woman my own age.

Not that a 38 year-old can’t be attractive – I met a 41 year-old artist last week who was drop-dead gorgeous and fascinating – but it’s a whole helluvalot easier when you’re 27.

So I also like the woman and she’s a genuinely good mate for me – and is also quite attractive – and as a result, my sister feels the need to *ENDLESSLY* chide me about it being mildly misogynistic for me to date her.

I pointed out that she says this because my SO is both younger and, regardless of age, much more attractive than she is, so she can keep her bitter comments to herself.

Her response?

It’s still true, men hate women.

You get this everywhere.

Male sexuality is poison and dangerous and disgusting and defiles women.

But women and their sexuality are to be celebrated and endorsed.

When a man cheats, he’s a dog.

When a woman cheats, it was his fault.

I swear, the entire media is just aligned against men on these issues.

I have to admit it: I like the idea of variety; I like the idea of younger women (to a point – I still want a woman to, well, be a woman); I like attractive women.

Apparently, to be Proper a man must not want sex more often than a woman. He must love fat women. And he must love older women.

Am I delusional in seeing a naked self-interest and power play in all of this?

My sister just makes snide comments to me; she loves my SO to death in public.

She and I have been at war for the better part of 4 decades. That’s not going to change any time soon. Maybe when we mellow, perhaps by 65.

But I think there’s a sense of bitterness: I can go out and get a much more attractive woman 10 years younger than me; were she to leave her husband (who is great), her options would be much more limited.

She knows this, but says society is ranged against women.

No – it’s biology, woman. try having that conversation with her.

You see, it’s all psychosocially constructed. It’s all cultural construction. Like men not liking fat women.

OT.
Maggie. TNS is the leading radio site in the Free Man area. Vince is a great man. He’s been at this for years.

We have been having many victories in Ireland. But the men are too afraid of the persecution of the cops to form common law courts. They can get 50,000 people to march in the streets of Dublin over the ‘banking bail out’ of EUR85B which was EUR20,000 for every man woman and child in the country but they can’t get 12 men to openly sit on a jury. That tells you everything you need to know about how bad it is in Ireland. Friends of mine are commonly being kidnapped and incarcerated by the cops over there.

I thought I would link you there as well. I hope you pick up some readers from that group too.

What I really don’t understand is how other women can dehumanize someone at the same time as they claim they’re trying to rescue them.

@peter andrew nolan,

The difference was for me that I tried to pick up Mina; she wasn’t looking for another client. I just thought she was an exceptionally hot and charming woman. Almost all of her clients were a little group of rich and famous upper-class Koreans and their satellite orbiters. She’d make about $500 US a night, minimum, more like $1000; she didn’t always get to choose who she was hooked up with, but they were rarely scary or weird. She was what people called “entertainment” – the night might end up in sex. Often the men were to drunk to care. There was one point she was terrified it was going to go bad, before she met me, that she told me about: two Japanese businessmen were visiting, and one was pretty hammered. He literally raped her (though she was being paid to have sex with him); that was par for the course, and she disliked the scenario, but it was when his friend got involved that it apparently went south. it got really rough. As a result, she had an aversion to Japanese men – something about the attitude. They were super disrespectful. They also made rude comments about her she didn’t like.

Most of the time her clients were Koreans. About half worked for Samsung. Here’s a shocker that isn’t:

Almost all of her bills were paid for by Corporate accounts. In other words, the actual individuals involved almost never aid for anything.

There are lot sof really well-dressed, very stylish and shockingly attractive women in Seoul. She wasn’t out of place at all.
What was different was her attitude: solicitous. I tried the game with her, and she had enough to throw back at me. And she was honest before she slept with me.

So I could only be impressed. Also, I’m a man, and I was fascinated. What man wouldn’t be?

I’d never considered us in a “relationship” – such things are nebulous anyway – but she apparently did. I was an ex-Boyfriend after it ended. Of course, when it ended was debatable, but that’s always true.

To be honest, it was surprisingly just like every relationship I’ve ever had, except that I had to avoid asking some questions. I might delude myself as to how much she liked me (I had the impression that it was a lot), but
– I never paid for anything with her; she always paid her share and was strict about this, even paying for me for train fare once when we left the city for a couple of days
– When we had sex, she was as eager to be “together” as she was to please me – and I have to say again it was a shocker to have a woman so constantly willing to please me without prompting of any kind: was this just her way of interacting with men? If true, then it had its up sides.
– She loved the fact that I cooked for her. There were nights she just came over to eat and watch TV, and that’s all we did.

– I never heard her bad-mouth other women in the vitriolic way man other women I spent time with did.

There was one thing that “Mina” was: She was extremely feminine. Hyper-feminine, in some ways.

When i went to Korea, I had all of the usual Western Feminist responses ready to throw out. By the time Mina and I met, most of these were wearing thing; Mina buried them.

By the time I came back after 7 years abroad, every assumption I’d ever had was dead and buried.

“Men are the same as women”. “Women are always victims.” “Men are predatory” (they are, but not in the way this statement is framed).

I’ve been with enough married women to know that a woman can say horrific things about men behind their backs, while in bed with a second man. Words filled with contempt and dismissal. If they’d just been there and not said anything that would have been fine.

Mina was one thing: Direct and honest. She knew I knew what she did; she knew that when she didn’t call me on a Saturday, she was “occupied”, and she knew that the time when I met her at an officeplace, once, she’d just had a evening of entertainment arranged for the next weekend; she said she was meeting someone next weekend. I asked no questions.

I don’t think I could have done that long-term with a woman who was working, but let’s assume for a moment she’d given it up (and the tax-free $4-7k/month she was making: bear in mind a well-placed Samsung worker near the top of his payscale would make $4k/month, among the highest salaries in the country). Could I have done that?

In retrospect, you bet. Who knows at the time – my options were kind-of wide.

before I met her I’d have said: No way.

After, … I’d say there were some benefits, as well as admitting that there were a few negatives.

So the BS that I hear about sex-work (especially with call girls) from feminists makes me wonder what their real motivations are. It all smells of something else.

BTW, in Korean society, Mina’s occupation was well-established and thoroughly understood; an institution, in a way. It was accepted as part of the “business culture” in every possible way. She viewed herself as a modern-day “Gisaeng”, and not just a prostitute; this had a cultural patina of marginal respectability.

One thing for sure: She was out of the league for almost all Korean men. Men she met, normal men, who knew what she did and didn’t treat her disrespectfully. Most were fascinated – not knowing what to do with her. The men she went to bed with were usually, but not always, very respectful and navigating waters they didn’t understand themselves, and with a woman more attractive than they were used to, and more obliging. Most of the time they weren’t paying her any money, she told me; that was all pre-arranged. Envelopes that passed beforehand, in her situation. There were “code words” for everything, basically, like everything else in Korean society.

I don’t know how common this experience for women doing this kind of work was, or whether or not it was particularly rare, but Mina did tell me that most women only did it for at most about 5 years before they got out or got eaten up by it. Added to the fact that they were most attractive from about 20-25, anyway; 24 was considered the ideal age, according to her.

Anyway, the hypocrisy of Korean society about all of this and the business culture surrounding it was one thing. Coming home and hearing the sanctimonious preaching of feminists align so perfectly with fundamentalists and conservatives raised the spectre of social hypocrisy over here for me, too.

The recent furor over how thousands of prostitutes and enslaved women were going to descend on the Superbowl was so bizarre it just defied the senses.

Estes and Weiner rank types of “exploitation” by frequency, and that domestic and international “sex trafficking” are second and third from the bottom. Even these highly biased and excitable gentlemen believed that “sex trafficking” affected only a tiny part of their “youth at risk”. The categories are, in order from most common to least common, sexual molestation by acquaintances, sexual molestation by family members, pornography (including, apparently, just looking at porn), gay sex, stripping, sexual contributions by girls to gangs, pimped prostitution (for girls) and entrepreneurial prostitution (for boys).

Interesting. I got my first copy of PLAYBOY in 1968, when I was fourteen. Does that mean I was exploited and “put at risk” of being sex-trafficked? (Never mind I was a boy.)

That’s exactly right; by Estes and Weiner’s criteria you were “at risk”, which means by the logic of trafficking fanatics you are RIGHT NOW a pimped, trafficked, 14-year old female sex slave. Welcome to our world. 😦

Instead, I am a nearly-60 man who has quite utterly given up on finding anything but “friendship.” Yes, I have enjoyed the pleasure of prostitutes; no, not in the USA. And my last sex-tourist vacation ended with a just-old-enough chica who acted as if she was utterly bored with the notion of earning a week’s normal wages for an hour of rumpling the sheets in my hotel room … so utterly bored, in fact, that I gave up on her, slept alone that last night of my stay, and contributed her fee to an orphanage that’s the “pet charity” of the place where I was staying.

“National researchers estimate that about 200,000 girls and boys nationwide are involved in sex trafficking or at risk, said Lucy Bloom, a special assistant with (the Department of Children and Families), which is working to determine the scope of the problem in Kansas.”

[…] comprehensive and reliable data on the subject, and as a result prohibitionists are free to make the sort of outlandish claims with which everyone is familiar (all sex workers have pimps, we were all abused as children and/or […]

So you think that if there’s “even one terrorist” in the world, the NSA is justified in mass surveillance? And if “even one child” dies from a drug OD, then the drug war is justified? Or if “even one child” kills himself with a gun, banning all guns is justified? Then you, sir, are an ass, and a perfect example of why this country is now a police state.

I just stumbled upon this and I wish to add something to this discussion (forgive me if someone else mentioned it, I haven’t read every comment to this article.)

I actually traced this myth further.

End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography, and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Exploitation (ECPAT). 1996. Europe and North America Regional Profile (issued by the World Congress Against Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, held in Stockholm, Sweden, August 1996, p.70.)

I contacted ECPAT. They don’t have a copy of this report. NO ONE does. How can ECPAT not have a report with such far-reaching implications? Maybe you’ll have better luck than I have with this one.

[…] that there are 300,000 children at risk of being trafficked into sexual slavery in the U.S…Ashley Judd and Nicholas Kristof are guided through the streets of Nashville by a woman who was first sold to […]

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