mike25 wrote:Well thats what he told me. But cannondale stepped up to the plate and is giving me a new bike and helmet which should be here sometime this week

That's nice/decent of them. But i guess warranty's also depend on different manufacturers and if they want to help you out or not. At the end of the day, it just comes down to how much they value the customer and the business that he/she brings.

[quote="iceman2321"]Hey guys, just would like some thought and discussion on my dilemma.

I bought a bike last year, a 2008 Giant OCR Alliance Comp from a local bike shop - TBE Belmont, in Perth, Western Australia.

About a month ago, I had a minor spill on the way to uni and came off at just under 30km/h. I hit the ground quite hard and got some road rash and a chipped tooth. Apart from that everything was okay. I then got up to check the bike, and was absolutely amazed that the front fork had completely sheared in half, halfway down the fork blade. The top of the fork is still attached to the headtube and steerer, whilst the bottom half is still connected to the dropouts on the front wheel. I have taken a few pictures and they are shown as below.

I know that warranty does not cover crashes or accidental damage. But what does this mean EXACTLY? This phrase is very vague. Does it mean if i'm rolling down my driveway at 10km/h and fall out because I was unable to clip out my pedals and snap a fork, that this would this void the warranty? Surely there must be some baseline margin in which bicycle manufacturer's must meet, even if the consumer (like myself) crashes his/her bike.

In this case I believe my bike/fork was no where near up to the strength it should have been. Falling off the side at less than 30km/h on a dry day without hitting anything that led to a structural failure of a fork is inexplicable.

I remember in the 07 Tour when Marcus Burghardt (also riding a Giant) hit a dog going downhill, which completely demolished his front wheel and drove his front fork into the ground, which came out fine - no failure, no nothing. Even though his wheel was bent like it was a piece of play-dough.

My question is, how can Giant expect me to believe that this fork was structurally sound when I didn't subject it to forces anywhere near racers/other riders would have subjected it to. I have only been riding for about a year, and i'm relatively light (65kg), and I don't put alot of force on the bike itself. The rest of the bike itself is fine - apart from a few scratches on the STI levers and bit of handlebar tape that's come off, its fine. I mean not a SINGLE spoke has been taken out of their housings at the rim or at the hub. The front wheel is still true and there isn't even a flat spot on the front tyre. Clearly there is a disproportionate amount of damage for the amount of force during the crash itself, which leads me to believe that the fork was structurally unsound in some way.

When I took the bike in straight after the crash, the mechanics at the shop were amazed at what had happened and one of the older guys there (I think the manager) said something along the lines of "In my 10 years working here, I have never seen or even heard of a fork failure like the one on yours". Afterwards I spoke to the head of service for the store and he said that he deals with hundreds of services a year, for racers and recreational riders alike, and that he'd never seen anything like it as well. So my question is, how can a recreational rider like myself rip a fork in half just by falling off, when these mechanics who have been dealing with bikes for 10 years + for racers never come across anything like it? After about a month of waiting, I contacted the shop again, and they said Giant would not be replacing my fork under warranty as it's my fault I crashed it, and that's the end of it. They didn't want anything about my story and the circumstances in which the crash occurred. They then said Giant would like to help me out by offering a replacement bike at a 'heavily discounted price' - and when i heard this, in my mind i LOLed. I mean COME ON, do you seriously expect me to fork (no pun intended) out another 2 grand for a bike which I don't trust, and more importantly on a bike built by a manufacturer I don't trust? What's going to happen if I do get a replacement Giant? I ride into a deep pothole and the front fork gives way on me?

Any thoughts/comments welcome, if you've been in a similar situation, please share your situation/comments and what occurred when you dealt with the manufacturer.

-Iceman[/QUOTE

Warranty is against manufacturing fault or defect, you stacking your bike does not even come close and what is worse it sounds like you genuinely believe it is the manufactures fault.

Go into any new car dealer and purchase a new car then within a few days slam it into a pole and smash the front in then take it back to the dealer and tell them the lights are faulty because they broke when you stupidly hit the pole, and prepare yourself for the inevitable........being told to ?*#$ off!

and rightly so !

You and any other cyclist who thinks this border line slanderous course of action is normal needs to wake up and take responsibility for there own actions, stop pointing the finger at others when you and only you are at fault.

Nice analogy Timbers. So very wrong however. Perhaps what is going on here is more like driving into a poll and the airbags failing to deploy. Is it the drivers fault that they did not deploy? The crash is the fault of the driver but the airbags the car maker. It is possible that there is some poor design here or poor workmanship. Ever heard of a recall? Can you be certain that there is not? Perhaps next time you post you can be a bit more polite and thoughtful. You can disagree but you don't have to be an a s s while doing it.

Timbers wrote:Warranty is against manufacturing fault or defect, you stacking your bike does not even come close and what is worse it sounds like you genuinely believe it is the manufactures fault.

Go into any new car dealer and purchase a new car then within a few days slam it into a pole and smash the front in then take it back to the dealer and tell them the lights are faulty because they broke when you stupidly hit the pole, and prepare yourself for the inevitable........being told to ?*#$ off!

and rightly so !

You and any other cyclist who thinks this border line slanderous course of action is normal needs to wake up and take responsibility for there own actions, stop pointing the finger at others when you and only you are at fault.

As i've said to the other people who have disagreed with me, i understand your point but I don't agree with it. However you are entitled to your opinion but there's no way I agree with it or even acknowledge it. Perhaps your car dealer might tell you to p--s off if you smash your car and take it back demanding them to fix it, fair enough too. They owe you nothing.

Does this apply to this/other similar situations? No.

I think you are missing the point. If what you are saying is true, then any single manufacturer of any product that consumers use whether that be a bike, car, fridge, computer or whatever can just build their product as cheaply as possible and then when/if it happens to break just blame it on the consumer. No this is not right.

Poor design and worksmanship have to be acknowledged in cases where damage is beyond what you would expect.

You crash you car into a pole, your front end is probably going to be torn in half, you expect that. There is a big difference here, which is why your analogy is not relevant to this/other similar cases.

Timbers wrote:You and any other cyclist who thinks this border line slanderous course of action is normal needs to wake up and take responsibility for there own actions, stop pointing the finger at others when you and only you are at fault.

If anything I think it is you who is pointing the finger. The point I outlined and explained to the people i dealt with were facts, not opinions, which is what you're offering. And please don't talk to me about slander, because it seems like you have hardly grasped the concept of it yourself.

Unlike Black Dog (thanks, you've definitely earnt some respect in my books), I don't mind if you're rude to me, that's your right, you can do whatever you like, but don't expect me to be pleasant in return either.

Last year I drove both my wifes (Giant) and my (Trek) bikes into the garage while they were on the roof of the car. The Giant which was mostly aluminum was bent just enough to be a total loss for both frame and fork. The Trek was totally destroyed (steered bent 45 degrees and head tube ovalized) and was also totalled. Both companies did pretty well with their reaction.

Given what happened we had the following experiences.
1. The Giant dealer was able to get Giant to crash warranty the frame (at a fairly reasonable cost) and then re hang the parts (they did actually build the bike in the wrong size the first time and had to do over).

2. Trek actually issued a credit for the damage to the bike (not very much) that was a discount against a new bike purchase, plus they stripped the destroyed bike for free. I was not the original owner of the trek.

I have never met you in person but I can tell you as someone who doesn't have a dog in the hunt, that when you say things like, "I crashed", "I had some bad road rash" and "I chipped a tooth" it makes me wonder about what really happened.

In terms of warranty items.
1. Trek Madones (which is what I ended up on) with the integrated bottom sometimes have issues with the integrated bearings. In this case, they replace the frame.

2. If I crash the madone, they will give me a deal on a replacement frame and fork, I understand that this includes low speed as well as high speed crashes.

3. I would guess that they would accept it if I said that I was riding on route X and all of a sudden my fork sheared in half and a I fell off, but they would most likely insist that I show them exactly where it happened. In this case I would be working on minimizing my costs.

When you ask Giant for a crash replacment program what do they tell you?

yeltnerb wrote:I have never met you in person but I can tell you as someone who doesn't have a dog in the hunt, that when you say things like, "I crashed", "I had some bad road rash" and "I chipped a tooth" it makes me wonder about what really happened.

As I mentioned, I went to adjust the straps on my backpack as they seemed unusually loose, and took both hands off the bars to do this, somehow the bike slide about 30 degrees to the left and went away from underneath me. I went off the side and landed face first into the ground (hence the chipped teeth and cuts to the face) and cut up my jersey.

yeltnerb wrote:When you ask Giant for a crash replacment program what do they tell you?

After about a month of waiting, I contacted the shop again, and they said Giant would not be replacing my fork under warranty as it's my fault I crashed it, and that's the end of it. They didn't want anything about my story and the circumstances in which the crash occurred. They then said Giant would like to help me out by offering a replacement bike at a 'heavily discounted price' - and when i heard this, in my mind i LOLed. I mean COME ON, do you seriously expect me to fork (no pun intended) out another 2 grand for a bike which I don't trust, and more importantly on a bike built by a manufacturer I don't trust? What's going to happen if I do get a replacement Giant? I ride into a deep pothole and the front fork gives way on me?

(That's a direct quote from my first post in this thread.)

Since then, I contacted Giant Australia directly and they offered to deal with my situation. They said I could buy another frame (a new frameset for about $600, which i was a bit iffy about). Alternatively they asked me to get the frame checked out for structural damage, professionally (at a cost of around $200) and if it was deemed okay, they would replace my fork free of charge. This is what I am doing now and I am waiting for the report from the inspection to get back to me.

Okay - fair enough, I crashed and I take the responsibility for that. I asked the guy at the head office why Giant would not cover the costs of the inspection themselves and he just fell back and said it was my fault for the crash and that if I don't want to go ahead with it, then that's my perogative. Fair enough. I crashed, I'll take the responsibility that goes along with it and if I have to pay some money to get my bike inspected for structural damage to the frame, then I'll do it.

This experience was slightly better. But the State Rep's response coupled with the total inadequacy from the store's 'service manager' was a joke. But hey, s--t happens, I'll deal with it.

Glad to hear that Giant is willing to help you out a little bit. I hope that the $200 fee will go towards a new frame if they find damage. If not the fee will cover their cost for the fork. I doubt that they have some bloke making $50/hour spending 4 hours on your frame with an X-ray and industrial ultrasound machine.

By the way, Mavic should be thanking giant for making collapsible forks that spare their wheels from any damage during a crash!

And guess what, they're going to fall back on their promise of giving me the free fork after I apparently "showed lack of good will by posting this thread".....and exposing their appalling customer service. LOL

This was after the guy told me he was offering me a free fork if I got my bike inspected and the frame provided to be okay, which is has and it turned out fine.

What a joke.

Shows how much Giant cares about their customers, ie none whatsoever.
Apparently I have 'burnt' them and so I deserve nothing.

What else did you subject the bike too prior to the "crash", ever park it into a garage whilst still attached to the roof of your car maybe?? Little chance you will ever admit to anything like that.

Basically mate you are full of it, carbon forks on bikes of that quality do not simply break.

And to all the other so called experts lining up to rag Giant, you are most likely riding a product manufactured by them!

Little chance that i'd admit anything like that? Yeah cos maybe nothing like that ever actually happened! Do you honestly in your right mind believe that I would bring something like this up, rip into Giant, say they are totally c--p and stuff like that if I really didn't believe that was the case? Why in God's name would I waste so much of my time pursuing this?

Exactly, carbon forks should not just break. But in this case it did. If you want to believe I didn't take care of my bike previously then that's your opinion, you can think whatever you like.

Basically mate you are full of it, carbon forks on bikes of that quality do not simply break.

Oh yea, all the skeptics here seems to have forgotten the divine infallibility of Giant or any other bike maker for that matter.

...And fiftyfour eleven came down from the alp and let it be know to all peoples of the peloton that any thing made or yet to be made will never be less than perfect in design and construction...And to all those that question the supremacy of the creator of all things bicycle they shall be sent to land of the eternal head wind and false flat where they shall pull at the front for eternity...

Seriously mate, your certainty seems to transcend rational thought and borders on the irrational world of faith.

Wow,
they found this thread on the internet and are going to deny their warranty or customer service policies based on that? That is a lot of bad publicity for what at the end of the day would be a rounding error even if they gave you a replacement frameset. I am sure that they are well within the contract to do this, but it just seems odd that they would be comfortable with the bad publicity.

Oh dear, poor Black Dog seems to be as confused as his hubbard mate Iceman. Certainly things break no matter who makes them, but for a fork to break in roughly the same spot on both blades all on it's own is still BS.

If there was a manufacturing or design fault with this model bike it most certainly would have been picked up by now.

Again I wll suggest that Mr Iceman did do something to his forks but his lack of exprience and possible, mechanical ability, he just didn't realise the damage he was causing nor the risk he was putting himself into.

fiftyfour eleven wrote:Oh dear, poor Black Dog seems to be as confused as his hubbard mate Iceman. Certainly things break no matter who makes them, but for a fork to break in roughly the same spot on both blades all on it's own is still BS.

I thought the same thing, and I am skeptical of the JRA story. But the crashed carbon bikes site has several examples of fork legs sheered off at the same distance from the crown. Some even have front wheels that look intact. The only difference I could see is that most of the site's similar pics have a more ragged break. This may not be that unusual of a mode of failure, although most I think were the result of hitting something really solid.

"Listen, my son. Trust no one! You can count on no one but yourself. Improve your skills, son. Harden your body. Become a number one man. Do not ever let anyone beat you!" -- Gekitotsu! Satsujin ken

BroDeal wrote:I thought the same thing, and I am skeptical of the JRA story. But the crashed carbon bikes site has several examples of fork legs sheered off at the same distance from the crown. Some even have front wheels that look intact. The only difference I could see is that most of the site's similar pics have a more ragged break. This may not be that unusual of a mode of failure, although most I think were the result of hitting something really solid.

I think that this could have occured JRA as the OP states. When I saw that I thought 2 things, 1. Garage. 2. Curb/Wall. But then when he said that he had been JRA and was riding with no hands, it made me think that perhaps riding no hands, hitting a train track, pot hole or sewer grate shifting weight funny (placing an odd load on the fork) and snap.

I'll try be as neutral as possible and reading through all the posts, i think a few clear things have become clear on both sides of the argument..

Firstly to the cyclist:
I understand where you're coming from, but in my experience I think in this case its just bad luck, and you just going to have to harden up and deal with it. Poney up the $200 for a new fork after you got your frame checked out (which you have done it seems already). It might cost you $400...or so but that's the price you pay for crashing i guess. Also in future, GET INSURANCE, as this will stop any sort of argument like this, as its very unlikely you're going to get anything from the manufacturer (which in this case is true).

I'm not saying your bike or fork was perfect or whatever, because it could potentially have flaws (or weaknesses), you might have got a dud, you might not have, but that's not the problem here. you crashed and you have to bear the onus of fixing it, so the costs are your responsibility.

Secondly to the manufacturer:
This is clearly not the way to deal with an unhappy customer who has spent good money on a product that has failed quite badly on him. Whatever the situation, there are better ways of dealing with this. Firstly the lack of information passed on to the customer during the first few weeks? would certainly have been annoying at the least.

Probably the most important point that struck me was the fact that the head office dealt with this customer inappropriately. It's one thing telling someone you're offering them a free fork if they pay to get their bike checked and then refusing because they have aired their complaints on a public website. I think the latter would be even more of a PR headache for the company.

A set of forks costs what $200 (give or take) to the consumer, so this would be even less for the manufacturer/distributor. Sending one out and asking the customer why he was so unhappy/decided to air his complaints on a public forum would have gone a long way to settling this situation. If nothing the customer might have been at least in some way satisfied with the outcome. But, as is there's now a sour taste in the mouths of both parties.

It's important to realise the manufacturer's responsibility does not end once the bike is out of the shop and in the hands of the consumer. Although its true that some people do abuse their bikes and take it back and complain, I don't believe that this is the case, in this instance. Nevertheless, the responsibility does lie with the consumer in caring for his/her bike and trying the best he/she can not to crash/damage their bikes.

I sense that there has been alot of polarised debate on this thread from both sides, mostly triggered by emotion and totally illogical arguments that had no base whatsoever.