Let me start by saying that dreams are what you perceive in your mind during sleep i.e. thoughts, images, sounds, emotions etc.

Lucid dreams is when individuals are aware of the mental state in which they are actually in (that they are dreaming). In so many words, you are awake in your sleep as critical faculties of the mind are active and thus make you fully conscious and self-aware while dreaming.

Beyond this there is nothing else other than the different ways in which you can enter the same state of consciousness. You either get a WILD or a DILD. OOBEs, where an individual seemingly separates from the physical body from a waking point, are nothing but WILDs that include such illusion.

There is no such thing as a real out-of-body state i.e. where consciousness as a floating point is really outside of the physical body. There is no astral projection either as this connotes the existence of astral planes populated by discarnate beings (namely the spirits of the dead) and let's face it - our dreaming minds are quite capable of concocting such scenario.

One more time: there is only lucid dreaming

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

No offense, but that wasn't really the point of this thread lol. Anyone can state their opinion as fact, I posted on here in hope of finding some different perspectives and ideas about the three. I've read plenty of work that claims what you claim, and I've read plenty that claims astral projection is legit. Another empty claim is going to solve nothing.

I think the basis question is what do you want it to be and what is it. We can all answer the first one and back it up with our own experiences and opinions but no one can solve the second question at this stage. We could all get tested in sleep labs and there might be a common element like we were all in REM sleep at the time of the lucid dream and astral projection but that still does not resolve anything as during the day we all show similar brainwave patterns (we are awake and conscious) and look at the massive variation of human experience in any given day. The state of mind during these experiences is one question and the experience itself is another. People are so strong in what they believe. With a lifetime of (ahhhhh here we go) exploring the dreaming state and all manner of experiences Its only in recent times I knew there was a name for it and now find people arguing about the states. Its as bad as debating on how to pronounce a word, just splitting hairs for ego a lot of the time

Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

I have yet to encounter anyone who acknowledges Lucidity and Astral Projection as being separate. I suppose that is the perspective I really wanted. To hear from the perspective of someone who could first hand separate the two experiences.

In that case, KylePK, you are not really looking for what's factual it seems, but rather, to hear from someone the perspective that you favour the most. It seems this is about what you want rather than assessing the evidence fairly and getting to the bottom of it.

In my case, let me tell you, it is not about me having an opinion based on what I've read which I suddenly decided it sounded good to me. I have actually done my homework. In half a decade of practice and intense experience, I have found nothing but the evidence of becoming fully conscious and self-aware while dreaming, aka lucid dreaming.

Believe me, I have also been curious and tested methods purporting to help individuals achieve "astral projection" or even real out-of-bodies. All these methods landed me in the same state that I was already familiar with: lucid dreaming. Whether I experienced vibrations, sleep paralysis, energy waves or not - and these are only sensations that indicate one is transitioning from one state of consciousness to another - I always lucidly entered the same dreamland.

This is the truth as far as I can tell.

If you wish to separate and categorise the phenomenon, then it will be separate in your mind - and you are quite welcome to experience whatever reality you prefer as the lucid state will emulate this for you (as it will play upon your biases).

I know you don't want to hear it now but all I was offering was the truth.

Insidious was a load of cobblers...

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

If he didn't favour the view, it is something similar as he just said and I quote verbatim:

I have yet to encounter anyone who acknowledges Lucidity and Astral Projection as being separate. I suppose that is the perspective I really wanted. To hear from the perspective of someone who could first hand separate the two experiences.

Why does he want to hear from someone who separates the phenomenon? If not "favouring" then what is it? Curiosity? Or perhaps hope:

I posted on here in hope of finding some different perspectives and ideas about the three.

Hmmm...

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

Look at it this way, suppose you just found out about religion, about the concept of God. You wanted to hear what people had to say. You wouldn't want to just talk to Atheists as that would give you a biased opinion, you would also want to seek out someone who had a different perspective, someone who did believe in God. Just because you seek out the other group doesn't mean you are favoring them at all. Anyway il let him speak for himself.

"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

Summerlander wrote:In that case, KylePK, you are not really looking for what's factual it seems, but rather, to hear from someone the perspective that you favour the most. It seems this is about what you want rather than assessing the evidence fairly and getting to the bottom of it.

In my case, let me tell you, it is not about me having an opinion based on what I've read which I suddenly decided it sounded good to me. I have actually done my homework. In half a decade of practice and intense experience, I have found nothing but the evidence of becoming fully conscious and self-aware while dreaming, aka lucid dreaming.

Believe me, I have also been curious and tested methods purporting to help individuals achieve "astral projection" or even real out-of-bodies. All these methods landed me in the same state that I was already familiar with: lucid dreaming. Whether I experienced vibrations, sleep paralysis, energy waves or not - and these are only sensations that indicate one is transitioning from one state of consciousness to another - I always lucidly entered the same dreamland.

This is the truth as far as I can tell.

If you wish to separate and categorise the phenomenon, then it will be separate in your mind - and you are quite welcome to experience whatever reality you prefer as the lucid state will emulate this for you (as it will play upon your biases).

I know you don't want to hear it now but all I was offering was the truth.

Insidious was a load of cobblers...

THIS is what I was honestly waiting for. See, this actually helps because you said you have done your fair share of attempts that all led you back to one thing; lucid dreaming. However, you are wrong at the very beginning, by saying --- "In that case, KylePK, you are not really looking for what's factual it seems, but rather, to hear from someone the perspective that you favour the most. It seems this is about what you want rather than assessing the evidence fairly and getting to the bottom of it." I just haven't heard more than 1 primary perspective, that's why I wanted to hear the astral projectors perspective. I hadn't seen or encountered enough evidence to disprove astral projecting, only a hunch that it was indeed merely dreaming. This hunch was however supported by watching astral projectors on youtube describing astral projection EXACTLY like dreaming. Its almost as if they were unaware of Lucid Dreaming, and just assumed the phenomenon was astral projection. But anyway, thank you for giving me such an extensive response. That definitely helped to answer my question!

Jack Reacher wrote:I think the last quote pretty much answers your own question...

Look at it this way, suppose you just found out about religion, about the concept of God. You wanted to hear what people had to say. You wouldn't want to just talk to Atheists as that would give you a biased opinion, you would also want to seek out someone who had a different perspective, someone who did believe in God. Just because you seek out the other group doesn't mean you are favoring them at all. Anyway il let him speak for himself.