Well, we can be condescending to each other in the "you're smarter than that" way that we both excel at but I'm not going further down that road.

I do believe you're an intelligent dude. I also believe that both of us are ingrained with a certain born in bias or ones we've developed.

But I'm not seeing these measurables and this data that actually measures it. You can keep saying measurables and then giving some subjective story, but that's not actually measurable dude.

You see mouthbreathers becoming connected to the internet and then tell me they aren't connected and they have no freedom. That their access to information is somehow less than what it was.

You also seem to assume that these wifebeaters didn't push buttons in the factory for 8 hours and then go home and kick the shit out of their wives and kids and dogs since the dawn push button factories and abusive people.

new media created them..

Of course you stop there and don't mention that 50 years ago the wife was wearing that shit til hubby died. And that media and society has changed and adapted enough to no longer consider that normal behavior while they provide options for the abuse victims.

No new media arguments when it got Obama elected. It was the dawn of a new day and a good thing four years ago.

People blaming the radio for the sounds that come out of it. People blaming twitter for the idiots on it. And that's indicative of our lack of freedoms?

By the way, the OP had it right: It's fucking funny that TX prisoner won 40% of a WV democratic primary.

e0y2e3 wrote:If something like Haight Street during Vietnam were attempted today the Gov't would have it shut down within a week. Fake ass OWS wasn't even close to Haight and ultimately got raided by the police state.

So yes, our lives are measurably more limited than our parents, especially when comparing the Vietnam situation re: the Hippies.

And come on you aren't an idiot. The "New Media" argument is a bunch of fuckstick mouth breathers becoming connected to the world, it has nothiing to do with you are I. People that in the past would have been pushing the button in the factory for eight hours, going home drunk and beating there wife and then going to bed now manage to work in some Fox News so they can scream about the Gays ruining the country.

You see mouthbreathers becoming connected to the internet and then tell me they aren't connected and they have no freedom. That their access to information is somehow less than what it was.

You also seem to assume that these wifebeaters didn't push buttons in the factory for 8 hours and then go home and kick the shit out of their wives and kids and dogs since the dawn push button factories and abusive people.

I see mouth breathers that don't want freedoms, that don't care. I see fucks that want to live in gawd's light because that is their simple minds can absorb. I see these fucks now, instead of just beating their wives, finding ways to become ingrained politically because of the new media. Before they were isolated, they were not involved, they had no real pull. That is why the Bush Campaign worked so hard to identify who these people were during the election and manipulated them into voting.

If you don't want freedoms for yourself others rights being infringed upon doesn't exactly bother you and if you serve as a sheep to the religious right in the form of checking their box on election day you support a party that is willing to infringe upon the rights of OTHERS in this country to make sure they keep getting the bible beaters vote.

Your problem eoy is that you see life right now as Dem vs. Repub. How on earth anyone who supports Obama can scream about him being a protector of the Bill-of-Rights is beyond me. He might in fact be worse than Bush when it comes to police-state/nanny-state shit.

I doubt it was a bunch of pubbies who just banned bake sales in your state, no doubt it was a bunch of hag elitists who know what's good for the people. You people are too stupid to take care of yourselves, please let us do it.

I don't support either party, I just fear one more than the other dmiles. You're problem is painting me into that picture. Frankly if I were anything I would fall into the libertarian camp, but they suck too.

And the nanny-state bullshit from Obama is pretty much par for the Bush course.

And please don't start in on Health Care being a rights infringement.

Obama isn't a protector of the Bill of Rights, but he isn't a threat to it either (you do know what the Bill of Rights includes, right?)

It's all relative. There were always bible thumpers and there were always conservatives and liberal assholes.

But it's all relative.

It wasn't that segment that determined the '08 election. I'm pretty sure it was the segment that will ALWAYS be out in front on technology and new media. And there will ALWAYS be technology and new media.

The percentages don't change. Not to mention that you asking me to accept that the fucking hill jack kicking the shit out of his wife and kids after 12 Pabsts and a day of miserable factory work is suddenly engaged by his Facebook and Twitter feed to the point where he invests emotionally enough to get behind a cause of religion and anti-gay marriage while his wife is bleeding to death. That's when he becomes motivated by God? That's hen he's compelled to put the beers down long enough to head into town and vote for the anti-gay candidate?

You're making leaps based on biases. I'm sure I' am too.

But it's no different than it was. The raw numbers may be larger but the percentages remain.

YMMV.

were involved.

e0y2e3 wrote:Naw, you are just missing my point, especially here:

[I see mouth breathers that don't want freedoms, that don't care. I see fucks that want to live in gawd's light because that is their simple minds can absorb. I see these fucks now, instead of just beating their wives, finding ways to become ingrained politically because of the new media. Before they were isolated, they were not involved, they had no real pull. That is why the Bush Campaign worked so hard to identify who these people were during the election and manipulated them into voting.

e0y2e3 wrote:I don't support either party, I just fear one more than the other dmiles. You're problem is painting me into that picture. Frankly if I were anything I would fall into the libertarian camp, but they suck too.

And the nanny-state bullshit from Obama is pretty much par for the Bush course.

And please don't start in on Health Care being a rights infringement.

Obama isn't a protector of the Bill of Rights, but he isn't a threat to it either (you do know what the Bill of Rights includes, right?)

Health-care only if forced to participate is a rights infringement. If they can figure out a way to make it voluntary, what do I care?

The problem with conservatives as currently constructed is they don't realize how hypocritical they sound when bashing on Bill of Rights. Plenty of religious cons would support making their religion law, and I can't support that on any front. And I am a Christian, just one who leans more on the grace side of the coin as opposed to legalistic pharisaic types running around Washington while tapping their feet on bathroom floors.

In any case I think both parties are busy chipping away at the 4th amendment. Been going on for a long time I have people close to me serving time for selling prescription drugs, and was a bit surprised at how uncle Sam came and just took their stuff. Small time shit, very small time shit and they've been dumped on viciously.

While I am a Libertarian I agree they suck and don't bother becoming a member of the party. Principle only takes you so far for instance, if I were king for a year the last fucking thing I would take away would be food stamps. Plenty of people suffering out there, and I am not an Ostrich on those issues, but I just think Obama has been anti-freedom on many fronts.

I don't know why you think social networking is the only development in the last forty years.

And McCain didn't run ANYWHERE NEAR as effective a religitard manipulating campaign as Bush.

I know. So was NPR and the Limbaugh show. And so was CBS/NBC/ABC.

None of it motivates the disinterested. The percentages on each side of the aisle who are motivated by all of it are the same as they were decades ago.

So we're back to cable stations as the new media that's throwing us to the wolves. We're back to Chris Matthews and Rachel Madow either preaching to the same people they would have appealed to 20 years ago or being castigated by the same assholes who would have hated them respectively then.

We're back to hating on the deepwood southern idiot or hating on the elitist east coast snob.

Again, wake me when something changes or when our generation has an actual crisis (aside from thiis cyclical economic funk that can easily be attributed to each party and/or neither party) that we don't create for the sake of worrying about something that validates our suffering, misery and need for attention and validation that we really are sucking it up and grinding it out in the toughest of times.

New media can be our bomb shelters and Red scare and Guadalcanal and...

The mouth-breathers that want someone to blaim and hate now have to do nothing more than turn there TV on to find Bill O'Reilly and Hannity telling them who to hate and backing it up with gawd.

Before those people had to focus their hate on their own lives, now it is far easier to find others.

I really don't undrestand how you are missing how many people are exposed to political bullshit on a daily basis. It's a simple and concrete fact. Hating that fact is one of the weirdest stances I have ever seen.

Quick Question Peekers, which cable news Network pulls in more ratings than the rest of them put together and then doubled....

I said it doesn't make any more a difference than it did before they were exposed less or exposed in other ways.

If you live here, work here or are here you're exposed to it inherently. The bullshit can't be separated.

That has nothing to do with it being worse today than ever. Nothing.

The system is fucked up. No shit. Always has been.

And for every mouth breather listening to Hannity and backing it up with God there's a mouthbreather on the other side quoting Olbermann and backing it up with a cry of "don't force your moraility on me".

I'm not saying it's not fucked up dude. It is. I'm saying it's no more fucked up than it ever was. And it ain't because of some bullshit God argument.

You and I are on different sides of the aisle. But it ain't because of God. We're probably lock step on that issue. And for every Arkansas hillbilly with a TV and Twitter who votes God, tere's a guy like you with a TV and Twitter who don't.

I'm saying we ain't wandering around the Coral Sea fighting for our survival, or in Viet Nam or in in the dust bowl starving for bread. You are far better off and freer than your folks. I'm really effing sure (despite the distance still to go) that African American's our age and younger are far better off than their folks and their grandparents.

e0y2e3 wrote:This is where you are wrong Peeker.

The mouth-breathers that want someone to blaim and hate now have to do nothing more than turn there TV on to find Bill O'Reilly and Hannity telling them who to hate and backing it up with gawd.

Before those people had to focus their hate on their own lives, now it is far easier to find others.

I really don't undrestand how you are missing how many people are exposed to political bullshit on a daily basis. It's a simple and concrete fact. Hating that fact is one of the weirdest stances I have ever seen.

Quick Question Peekers, which cable news Network pulls in more ratings than the rest of them put together and then doubled....

If you refuse to look at how elections are ran today compared to historically, the issues the focus on, the campaiging tactics and what not and recognize that the system is more broken then ever I'm out.

Historically we have had real enemies that have bound the country and protected against bullshit like this. We have had the Cold War, WWII, the isolationist period, etc. There was real and tangible fear that worked to give the religitards something to hate other than other Americans for the duration the election process during the globalization era.

And on top of that they were only fed the story of the day (like actual news) and were far less involved beyond "FUCK THE USSR!!!" The system before they had access frankly didn't inspire nearly as many of them to have anything to VOTE FOR so they just voted to kill the Commies or didn't vote at all. It's mind-blowing how you don't see the growing spread of hate.

And not to mention that those hateful fucks that love their Fox News now don't even have factories to work at as our economy transitions to service side economics.

Thing e0 is right about: politicians are getting better and better at using media to foment the ignorant masses. The level of distortion and talking-point immersion, etc is worse now than ever. The Marketplace of Ideas philosophy behind the 1st amendment seems to get more and more detached from our present day reality with every election.

Thing(s) peeker is right about: most everything else.

Point of illustration:

I was going through a box of old books in the basement a few months ago, and I found an old poly sci book entitled, Taking Sides, Clashing Views on Controversial Political Issues. Its table of contents includes (snipped for your convenience!):

Part 1 Democracy and the American Political ProcessIssue 1. Is American Government Dominated by Big Business?Issue 2. Do Political Campaigns Inform Voters?Issue 3. Do Political Action Committees Undermine Democracy? [No, Colbert. You did not discover this issue.]Issue 4. Does the News Media have a Liberal Bias?

Part 2 The Institutions of GovernmentIssue 7. Does the Government Regulate Too Much?Issue 8. Should the Federal Courts Be Bound by the "Original Intent" of the Framers?

Part 3 Social Change and Public PolicyIssue 11. Do We Need Tougher Gun Control Laws?Issue 15. Do We Need National Health Care Insurance?Issue 16. Should Women Have a Right to Abortion?Issue 17. Does the Religious Right Threaten American Freedoms?

Part 4 American and the WorldIssue 19. Should the United States Pursue Economic Competitiveness?Issue 20. Should the United States Put More Restrictions on Immigration?Issue 21. Is America Declining?

I don't even get a "you're smarter than that"? Straight to "that statement makes you [insert person I think you would not like to be]"?

Damn.

Anyway, sometimes you really do show a remarkable absence of perspective. The idea that newish media like Fox News has effected some kind of revolution in psychology where formerly disconnected human beings who once had no choice but to direct their anger/frustrations/hate inward, newly connected(!) now direct their anger/frustrations/hate at others--rather than media like Fox News merely fulfilling a need & tendency that has always, always, always, always (have I written enough alwayseses?) been there--is comically absurd.

For example (and an example that's several thousand years more recent than it needs to be), you are in fact aware that the holocaust really happened, right? And that Hitler managed to stir up all that jewhate without the advantage of either Twitter or Fox News?

ETA:

/"contrarion" (sic) drive-by (for realz this time)

Last edited by HoodooMan on Thu May 10, 2012 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sent this scary post to you on a forum board via an iPhone while using Cleveland Clinic office wifi.

Ya scareder cuz of da technology and how I could just as easily turned a bunch of Little Rock hill zombies into god spewing Romney supporters?

Don't hate on HooDoo showing back up because he found a compelling reason to disagree with you. You're fucking wrong. You're screaming as loud as Olberman. But it ain't making ya righter. I think a few more smh's or mouth breather/FoxNews references could win you favor with those idiots who can be influenced by rhetoric and screaming though.

The Holocost is just DooDoo being a dick because I called him FUDU, because that is about the most ridiculous argument ever and if anything falls into my "historical periods with crisis have tempered domestic hate" argument. Hitler took a nation on the brink of death and unified them...

I never once have said that hateful assholes haven't always existed, my point (which is being terribly distorted) has always been that they have a far more prominent roll in politics now. Fuckstick in Alabama in 1950 was lucky if he could even find a voting booth, let alone a newspaper.

e0y2e3 wrote:The Holocost is just DooDoo being a dick because I called him FUDU, because that is about the most ridiculous argument ever and if anything falls into my "historical periods with crisis have tempered domestic hate" argument. Hitler took a nation on the brink of death and unified them...

I never once have said that hateful assholes haven't always existed, my point (which is being terribly distorted) has always been that they have a far more prominent roll in politics now. Fuckstick in Alabama in 1950 was lucky if he could even find a voting booth, let alone a newspaper.

I'm using new media to distort facts. I'm assuming you're being swayed?

You want to really use new media and technology to do irreparable damage to society? You and I (and CDT) should set our twitter feeds to auto-pblish on FaceBook.

THAT would be a monumental moment in history and the hatred would be tangible.

I never said it does anything you mention in terms of damage and I'm not blaming it. I'm saying that, however, the increasing ease of access to information (OFTEN DISTORTED AND WRONG) has given the morons a loaded gun and polticians now are incredibly good at getting them to fire that gun.

I never said it does anything you mention in terms of damage and I'm not blaming it. I'm saying that, however, the increasing ease of access to information (OFTEN DISTORTED AND WRONG) has given the morons a loaded gun and polticians now are incredibly good at getting them to fire that gun.

Nope. Other than (as has always been the case) there are as many loaded guns in the hands of morons on one side as on the other and each side has people skillful enough to manipulate (or pander or appeal for ratings) that fact.

I just hope it doesn't result in a never before seen Civil War of some sorts or a contentious disagreement between the two prominent political sides.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:My whole bag is this. If it doesn't affect my life, and they aren't hurting or stealing from anyone, I don't give a shit what you do. It's not my business. No gay people ever told me I couldn't marry my wife because of some ancient book. Why would I do it to them?

I'm pretty much in agreement with you. But answer me this, why do they have to insist on the concept/construct of marriage, when they have the opportunity to civilly union? IOW, same difference.

...another poster has brought this up in the past and I felt it was always a valid point.

Incorrect. The hillbillies in the Colorado house just used childish tricks to run out the clock on the legislative session so the civil union bill wouldn't even come up to vote.

Letting the religious right run this country is far worse than anything Obama can come up with. Any politician who disagrees or blocks this legislation is either a moron or pandering.

I'm with you in that there's no reason for states to not have civil unions. But when a state does, IIRC New York does (yet doesn't allow SSM) then I see it as making a big to do about nothing.

peeker wrote:All in all people are better off today, wealthier today, more connected today and freer today than they were in the past.

I do disagree here, in that we are wealthier. Of course it's mostly relative but life is more complicated today, more distractions and hoops to jump through. Sure some are avoidable (we simply lack discipline, well the rest of you do anyway ) but some of the hoops are not. I think a huge difference today is it is much more difficult for the average John Q. Taxpayer to reach relative financial freedom. Where as decades ago, in large part due to a more simple society, it was far more attainable, at a younger than you might as well be dead age.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:My whole bag is this. If it doesn't affect my life, and they aren't hurting or stealing from anyone, I don't give a shit what you do. It's not my business. No gay people ever told me I couldn't marry my wife because of some ancient book. Why would I do it to them?

I'm pretty much in agreement with you. But answer me this, why do they have to insist on the concept/construct of marriage, when they have the opportunity to civilly union? IOW, same difference.

...another poster has brought this up in the past and I felt it was always a valid point.

Incorrect. The hillbillies in the Colorado house just used childish tricks to run out the clock on the legislative session so the civil union bill wouldn't even come up to vote.

Letting the religious right run this country is far worse than anything Obama can come up with. Any politician who disagrees or blocks this legislation is either a moron or pandering.

I'm with you in that there's no reason for states to not have civil unions. But when a state does, IIRC New York does (yet doesn't allow SSM) then I see it as making a big to do about nothing.

peeker wrote:All in all people are better off today, wealthier today, more connected today and freer today than they were in the past.

I do disagree here, in that we are wealthier. Of course it's mostly relative but life is more complicated today, more distractions and hoops to jump through. Sure some are avoidable (we simply lack discipline, well the rest of you do anyway ) but some of the hoops are not. I think a huge difference today is it is much more difficult for the average John Q. Taxpayer to reach relative financial freedom. Where as decades ago, in large part due to a more simple society, it was far more attainable, at a younger than you might as well be dead age.

There are A LOT of levels to Peeker's statement here. For example, on one hand John Q. Taxpayers is finding financial freedom difficult, on the other hand if John Q. Taxpayer is one of those making 10 bucks an hour, he shouldn't have the same smart phone that Donald Trump has. Seems that everyone picks up the latest shit, paying little mind to if they can really afford it or not. There may be a difference in size and scope of the possessions between the rich and poor, but there really ain't a difference in the possessions themselves. Everyone's on the latest shit.

If John Q. Taxpayer didn't buy the house he had no business buying....... and on and on.

So, to your comment, about the discipline - this is just one of the many things that make things foggy.

This Agnostic Republican is with the Prez on this one. Legalize marijuana. Legalize marriage for any two consenting adults.Government does not need to get involved in our personal lives. Less government.Less,less ,less ,even when it makes the religious fucktards in our party uncomfortable.

mistero wrote:This Agnostic Republican is with the Prez on this one. Legalize marijuana. Legalize marriage for any two consenting adults.Government does not need to get involved in our personal lives. Less government.Less,less ,less ,even when it makes the religious fucktards in our party uncomfortable.

I think this is the crux of the point EY is trying to make. It it is much easier now for dumbfuck ignorant mouthbreathers who flat out accept what their "leaders" tell them which makes it all the more likely they'll get involved. Why? Because people who subscribe to the very religious/conservative points of view are typically a lot more fervent and impressionable than folks in the middle or other. The points you make above are great but cannot happen in the current state because there is too much pressure on certain people to break their convictions regardless of whether is the right thing to do. Religious righties are the fire that drives a lot of bullshit in this country. Growing access and an increase of false media getting shoved down peoples' throats is like throwing textile spirits into that fire. EY might not be 100% correct, but I don't see how a reasonable person can take his POV and not agree that pushing more and more bad ideas quicker and more frequently to large groups of people who don't know their ass from a whole in the ground and conclude that this is a positive trend for normal Americans.

"All Beckett needs to do to cap off this mess is order some fried chicken and beer" – 5/10/12 before Beckett got chased in the 3rd at Fenway.

mistero wrote:This Agnostic Republican is with the Prez on this one. Legalize marijuana. Legalize marriage for any two consenting adults.Government does not need to get involved in our personal lives. Less government.Less,less ,less ,even when it makes the religious fucktards in our party uncomfortable.

I think this is the crux of the point EY is trying to make. It it is much easier now for dumbfuck ignorant mouthbreathers who flat out accept what their "leaders" tell them which makes it all the more likely they'll get involved. Why? Because people who subscribe to the very religious/conservative points of view are typically a lot more fervent and impressionable than folks in the middle or other. The points you make above are great but cannot happen in the current state because there is too much pressure on certain people to break their convictions regardless of whether is the right thing to do. Religious righties are the fire that drives a lot of bullshit in this country. Growing access and an increase of false media getting shoved down peoples' throats is like throwing textile spirits into that fire. EY might not be 100% correct, but I don't see how a reasonable person can take his POV and not agree that pushing more and more bad ideas quicker and more frequently to large groups of people who don't know their ass from a whole in the ground and conclude that this is a positive trend for normal Americans.

I don't think there is one person in this discussion that feels it is a positive trend at all, nor do I recall anyone even hinting it is.

Another truth in all this, bad ideas come from both sides 24/7.

The problem this country has right now is we breed laziness, both physically and intellectually. Both in our leaders and our voting block.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

mistero wrote:This Agnostic Republican is with the Prez on this one. Legalize marijuana. Legalize marriage for any two consenting adults.Government does not need to get involved in our personal lives. Less government.Less,less ,less ,even when it makes the religious fucktards in our party uncomfortable.

I think this is the crux of the point EY is trying to make. It it is much easier now for dumbfuck ignorant mouthbreathers who flat out accept what their "leaders" tell them which makes it all the more likely they'll get involved. Why? Because people who subscribe to the very religious/conservative points of view are typically a lot more fervent and impressionable than folks in the middle or other. The points you make above are great but cannot happen in the current state because there is too much pressure on certain people to break their convictions regardless of whether is the right thing to do. Religious righties are the fire that drives a lot of bullshit in this country. Growing access and an increase of false media getting shoved down peoples' throats is like throwing textile spirits into that fire. EY might not be 100% correct, but I don't see how a reasonable person can take his POV and not agree that pushing more and more bad ideas quicker and more frequently to large groups of people who don't know their ass from a whole in the ground and conclude that this is a positive trend for normal Americans.

I don't think there is one person in this discussion that feels it is a positive trend at all, nor do I recall anyone even hinting it is.

Another truth in all this, bad ideas come from both sides 24/7.

The problem this country has right now is we breed laziness, both physically and intellectually. Both in our leaders and our voting block.

And we let people like you exist.... hateful, stupid, mouth-breathing, you got it all

Anyone who believe's the 60's harbored more of a police state than the present under Obama and Big Sis is just covering the eyes ears and holding their nose to the stink of your personal privacy and freedom rotting under the guise of safety.....

I mean seriously...you have GOT to be fucking kidding me...

...and in the old days, that wife beater was more likely to get worked over with a fucking nightstick before the cops dropped him on his ass at his front door than be jailed

And anyone who bitched about Bush's Patriot Act and votes for Obama a 2nd time has to be the most naive son of a bitch that ever graced the planet Earth....

...but, the party symbol is a jackass so nail meet hammer

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Anyone who believe's the 60's harbored more of a police state than the present under Obama and Big Sis is just covering the eyes ears and holding their nose to the stink of your personal privacy and freedom rotting under the guise of safety.....

I mean seriously...you have GOT to be fucking kidding me...

Or they're a partisan republican. Sorry- Personally I feel no rot taking place. Maybe it's just that insidious and/or I'm that naive and will wake up one day in an Orwell novel regretting my naivete.

...and in the old days, that wife beater was more likely to get worked over with a fucking nightstick before the cops dropped him on his ass at his front door than be jailed

Unless there was a black dude driving around who was a more convenient target.

And anyone who bitched about Bush's Patriot Act and votes for Obama a 2nd time has to be the most naive son of a bitch that ever graced the planet Earth....