It's Manning in a landslide. The year before Marino was drafted the Dolphins went to the super bowl on the strengths of the defense and running game.

In Marinos incredible 1984 season the Dolphins managed 4.0 ypc back when that was a good number. In the 1984 season the Dolphins had the #6 scoring defense in the NFL. Marino was a ball hogger. He absorbed way too many of the snaps for the running game to be worth anything.

Marino has played for the number one scoring defense twice in his career.

Marino played with 64 pro bowl players in his 17 year career. Talk about being surrounded by talent.

Marino spent his career playing for the winningest coach in NFL history. Talk about being in a great system.

Marino's play dropped in the playoffs. His career passer rating in the regular season is 86.4. That drops to 77.1 in the postseason.

Marino threw an interception in 13 of his career playoff games. He threw multi INT's 10 times.

So if anyone wants to no why the Dolphins never won a super bowl in the Marino era, just take a look at your Marino jersey._________________The Packers are the premier franchise in the NFL. DEAL WITH IT.

It's Manning in a landslide. The year before Marino was drafted the Dolphins went to the super bowl on the strengths of the defense and running game.

In Marinos incredible 1984 season the Dolphins managed 4.0 ypc back when that was a good number. In the 1984 season the Dolphins had the #6 scoring defense in the NFL. Marino was a ball hogger. He absorbed way too many of the snaps for the running game to be worth anything.

Marino has played for the number one scoring defense twice in his career.

Marino played with 64 pro bowl players in his 17 year career. Talk about being surrounded by talent.

Marino spent his career playing for the winningest coach in NFL history. Talk about being in a great system.

Marino's play dropped in the playoffs. His career passer rating in the regular season is 86.4. That drops to 77.1 in the postseason.

Marino threw an interception in 13 of his career playoff games. He threw multi INT's 10 times.

So if anyone wants to no why the Dolphins never won a super bowl in the Marino era, just take a look at your Marino jersey.

Do you realize who Shula had as quarterbacks throughout his NFL coaching career ?? Johnny Unitas, Bob Griese, and Dan Marino (Baumhower for two seasons). Great quarterbacks aren't a product of the system, great systems are the result of great quarterbacks.

It's no coincidence that every great coach has a great quarterback attached to him....._________________

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

(In reference to uncertainty surrounding Deflategate) Next thing you know these same people are going to start saying the Holocaust is nothing but speculation.

It's Manning in a landslide. The year before Marino was drafted the Dolphins went to the super bowl on the strengths of the defense and running game.

In Marinos incredible 1984 season the Dolphins managed 4.0 ypc back when that was a good number. In the 1984 season the Dolphins had the #6 scoring defense in the NFL. Marino was a ball hogger. He absorbed way too many of the snaps for the running game to be worth anything.

Marino has played for the number one scoring defense twice in his career.

Marino played with 64 pro bowl players in his 17 year career. Talk about being surrounded by talent.

Marino spent his career playing for the winningest coach in NFL history. Talk about being in a great system.

Marino's play dropped in the playoffs. His career passer rating in the regular season is 86.4. That drops to 77.1 in the postseason.

Marino threw an interception in 13 of his career playoff games. He threw multi INT's 10 times.

So if anyone wants to no why the Dolphins never won a super bowl in the Marino era, just take a look at your Marino jersey.

Do you realize who Shula had as quarterbacks throughout his NFL coaching career ?? Johnny Unitas, Bob Griese, and Dan Marino (Baumhower for two seasons). Great quarterbacks aren't a product of the system, great systems are the result of great quarterbacks.

It's no coincidence that every great coach has a great quarterback attached to him.....

In 3 of Bob Griese's 5 games on the way to his Super Bowl titles, he threw less than 10 passes. In the other two he threw 11 and 18. I think it's safe to say that Shula didn't need great quarterback play to win._________________"He used statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts; for support rather than illumination."
-Andrew Lang

It's Manning in a landslide. The year before Marino was drafted the Dolphins went to the super bowl on the strengths of the defense and running game.

In Marinos incredible 1984 season the Dolphins managed 4.0 ypc back when that was a good number. In the 1984 season the Dolphins had the #6 scoring defense in the NFL. Marino was a ball hogger. He absorbed way too many of the snaps for the running game to be worth anything.

Marino has played for the number one scoring defense twice in his career.

Marino played with 64 pro bowl players in his 17 year career. Talk about being surrounded by talent.

Marino spent his career playing for the winningest coach in NFL history. Talk about being in a great system.

Marino's play dropped in the playoffs. His career passer rating in the regular season is 86.4. That drops to 77.1 in the postseason.

Marino threw an interception in 13 of his career playoff games. He threw multi INT's 10 times.

So if anyone wants to no why the Dolphins never won a super bowl in the Marino era, just take a look at your Marino jersey.

Do you realize who Shula had as quarterbacks throughout his NFL coaching career ?? Johnny Unitas, Bob Griese, and Dan Marino (Baumhower for two seasons). Great quarterbacks aren't a product of the system, great systems are the result of great quarterbacks.

It's no coincidence that every great coach has a great quarterback attached to him.....

In 3 of Bob Griese's 5 games on the way to his Super Bowl titles, he threw less than 10 passes. In the other two he threw 11 and 18. I think it's safe to say that Shula didn't need great quarterback play to win.

What does that have to do with anything ?? Shula had THREE hall of fame quarterbacks leading his teams. You don't think that has a little something to do with his (Shula's) success as a coach ??

My point is....I'm sick of the "system" garbage. People who lack the knowledge or have no clue what to add to a debate resort to it. Football isn't a computer simulation where you simply plug the variables into an equation and the results are always the same. There's no such thing as system quarterbacks. Period._________________

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

(In reference to uncertainty surrounding Deflategate) Next thing you know these same people are going to start saying the Holocaust is nothing but speculation.

It's Manning in a landslide. The year before Marino was drafted the Dolphins went to the super bowl on the strengths of the defense and running game.

In Marinos incredible 1984 season the Dolphins managed 4.0 ypc back when that was a good number. In the 1984 season the Dolphins had the #6 scoring defense in the NFL. Marino was a ball hogger. He absorbed way too many of the snaps for the running game to be worth anything.

Marino has played for the number one scoring defense twice in his career.

Marino played with 64 pro bowl players in his 17 year career. Talk about being surrounded by talent.

Marino spent his career playing for the winningest coach in NFL history. Talk about being in a great system.

Marino's play dropped in the playoffs. His career passer rating in the regular season is 86.4. That drops to 77.1 in the postseason.

Marino threw an interception in 13 of his career playoff games. He threw multi INT's 10 times.

So if anyone wants to no why the Dolphins never won a super bowl in the Marino era, just take a look at your Marino jersey.

Do you realize who Shula had as quarterbacks throughout his NFL coaching career ?? Johnny Unitas, Bob Griese, and Dan Marino (Baumhower for two seasons). Great quarterbacks aren't a product of the system, great systems are the result of great quarterbacks.

It's no coincidence that every great coach has a great quarterback attached to him.....

In 3 of Bob Griese's 5 games on the way to his Super Bowl titles, he threw less than 10 passes. In the other two he threw 11 and 18. I think it's safe to say that Shula didn't need great quarterback play to win.

What does that have to do with anything ?? Shula had THREE hall of fame quarterbacks leading his teams. You don't think that has a little something to do with his (Shula's) success as a coach ??

My point is....I'm sick of the "system" garbage. People who lack the knowledge or have no clue what to add to a debate resort to it. Football isn't a computer simulation where you simply plug the variables into an equation and the results are always the same. There's no such thing as system quarterbacks. Period.

What does it have to do with anything? It means that Shula didn't need stellar quarterback play to win his Super Bowls. When your quarterback, Hall of Fame though he may be, only passes for 100 yards once in his five games on the way to two Super Bowls, I think it goes to show that the man wasn't dependent on stellar QB play to win. Unless you consider 9.4 attempts and 85 yards per game (drops to 7 attempts and 66 yards per game when you take out the one outlier) relying on your QB. Shula was a great coach who happened to have some great QBs as well, it's not as though his QBs made him.

As to the system thing, I see your point. Must get old to have your QB, who's been one of the best QBs in the league for the past 8 years or so, constantly demeaned like that. But at the same time people going too far in the other direction (not saying that's you) have it wrong, too. Anybody else coaches those Patriots dynasty teams and they don't go anywhere. Likewise, while Cool Joe ran the WCO to perfection, it was still relatively new to the league and many teams had no idea how to stop it. That had to have been a tremendous attribute to work with, especially in the early years of the Niners dynasty. Montana was a great QB (regardless of what offense he ran) with an equally great system._________________"He used statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts; for support rather than illumination."
-Andrew Lang

The point is, Marino is very much to blame for his ringless resume. Of course, he doesn't shoulder 100% of it, but as the QB he does shoulder quite a hefty load. It's not as if he played for a perenial bottom feeder._________________The Packers are the premier franchise in the NFL. DEAL WITH IT.

Why not? Belichick's career in New England was marked by failure - and nothing else - until literally the exact moment Brady became the QB. Who knows about how many titles he'd win with the butterfly effect and whatnot, but those Patriots are still a dominant team if it's just Brady._________________

Why not? Belichick's career in New England was marked by failure - and nothing else - until literally the exact moment Brady became the QB. Who knows about how many titles he'd win with the butterfly effect and whatnot, but those Patriots are still a dominant team if it's just Brady.

I'm not saying Belichick would have any Super Bowls, but there's no denying his defense's play while with Brady. Do you think just anyone else could have waltzed into that situation and had those players playing as well as they did, particularly against Warner's Rams and Manning's Colts? Also, small sample size, but I'd say Bill did just about as good a job as anybody could have when Brady went down and he was stuck with a guy who hadn't started a game at QB since high school._________________"He used statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts; for support rather than illumination."
-Andrew Lang

Why not? Belichick's career in New England was marked by failure - and nothing else - until literally the exact moment Brady became the QB. Who knows about how many titles he'd win with the butterfly effect and whatnot, but those Patriots are still a dominant team if it's just Brady.

Are they? Does Brady ever become the starting QB without Belichick?_________________

KingBishop wrote:

JammerHammer21 wrote:

Jarvis looked like a slug on and off the field.

Off the field? Like when he is grocery shopping, does he block the freezer aisle with his sluggish selection of which hungry man to buy?

Why not? Belichick's career in New England was marked by failure - and nothing else - until literally the exact moment Brady became the QB. Who knows about how many titles he'd win with the butterfly effect and whatnot, but those Patriots are still a dominant team if it's just Brady.

Why not? Belichick's career in New England was marked by failure - and nothing else - until literally the exact moment Brady became the QB. Who knows about how many titles he'd win with the butterfly effect and whatnot, but those Patriots are still a dominant team if it's just Brady.

Are they? Does Brady ever become the starting QB without Belichick?

I think the assumption here is that he does.

Way I read it was that the coaching and system contributes to success which is true. Without Belichick, who knows if Brady is ever given the chance? Without Belichick, who knows if that team ever builds the defense it did? Without Belichick, who knows if Brady becomes as great as he has?

You're making a lot of assumptions._________________

KingBishop wrote:

JammerHammer21 wrote:

Jarvis looked like a slug on and off the field.

Off the field? Like when he is grocery shopping, does he block the freezer aisle with his sluggish selection of which hungry man to buy?

Why not? Belichick's career in New England was marked by failure - and nothing else - until literally the exact moment Brady became the QB. Who knows about how many titles he'd win with the butterfly effect and whatnot, but those Patriots are still a dominant team if it's just Brady.

Are they? Does Brady ever become the starting QB without Belichick?

I think the assumption here is that he does.

Way I read it was that the coaching and system contributes to success which is true. Without Belichick, who knows if Brady is ever given the chance? Without Belichick, who knows if that team ever builds the defense it did? Without Belichick, who knows if Brady becomes as great as he has?

You're making a lot of assumptions.

That's almost what I was going for. An average coach in this league goes to New England in 2001. Bledsoe still gets injured, Brady still starts. And the Pats dynasty never happens._________________"He used statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts; for support rather than illumination."
-Andrew Lang

Why not? Belichick's career in New England was marked by failure - and nothing else - until literally the exact moment Brady became the QB. Who knows about how many titles he'd win with the butterfly effect and whatnot, but those Patriots are still a dominant team if it's just Brady.

Are they? Does Brady ever become the starting QB without Belichick?

I think the assumption here is that he does.

Way I read it was that the coaching and system contributes to success which is true. Without Belichick, who knows if Brady is ever given the chance? Without Belichick, who knows if that team ever builds the defense it did? Without Belichick, who knows if Brady becomes as great as he has?

You're making a lot of assumptions.

That's almost what I was going for. An average coach in this league goes to New England in 2001. Bledsoe still gets injured, Brady still starts. And the Pats dynasty never happens.

Yes and no. I don't think they'd have won 3 Super Bowls(wouldn't have won in 2001) but I do think they'd be a great team for the decade still if that happens. Unless you're also considering that player acquisition will be mediocre or average._________________

KingBishop wrote:

JammerHammer21 wrote:

Jarvis looked like a slug on and off the field.

Off the field? Like when he is grocery shopping, does he block the freezer aisle with his sluggish selection of which hungry man to buy?

Why not? Belichick's career in New England was marked by failure - and nothing else - until literally the exact moment Brady became the QB. Who knows about how many titles he'd win with the butterfly effect and whatnot, but those Patriots are still a dominant team if it's just Brady.

Are they? Does Brady ever become the starting QB without Belichick?

I think the assumption here is that he does.

Way I read it was that the coaching and system contributes to success which is true. Without Belichick, who knows if Brady is ever given the chance? Without Belichick, who knows if that team ever builds the defense it did? Without Belichick, who knows if Brady becomes as great as he has?

You're making a lot of assumptions.

That's almost what I was going for. An average coach in this league goes to New England in 2001. Bledsoe still gets injured, Brady still starts. And the Pats dynasty never happens.

Yes and no. I don't think they'd have won 3 Super Bowls(wouldn't have won in 2001) but I do think they'd be a great team for the decade still if that happens. Unless you're also considering that player acquisition will be mediocre or average.

I could see 2004 (unless Brady develops differently under an average head coach), but I don't think 2003 happens. Anyway, the tangent's gone on long enough. The point is that Marino had a dang good coach working with him (though it's possible the game had left Shula behind by the time Dan reached his prime). How much of the playoff failures is on who I have no idea._________________"He used statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts; for support rather than illumination."
-Andrew Lang

It's Manning in a landslide. The year before Marino was drafted the Dolphins went to the super bowl on the strengths of the defense and running game.

In Marinos incredible 1984 season the Dolphins managed 4.0 ypc back when that was a good number. In the 1984 season the Dolphins had the #6 scoring defense in the NFL. Marino was a ball hogger. He absorbed way too many of the snaps for the running game to be worth anything.

Marino has played for the number one scoring defense twice in his career.

Marino played with 64 pro bowl players in his 17 year career. Talk about being surrounded by talent.

Marino spent his career playing for the winningest coach in NFL history. Talk about being in a great system.

Marino's play dropped in the playoffs. His career passer rating in the regular season is 86.4. That drops to 77.1 in the postseason.

Marino threw an interception in 13 of his career playoff games. He threw multi INT's 10 times.

So if anyone wants to no why the Dolphins never won a super bowl in the Marino era, just take a look at your Marino jersey.

As usual, you came up with a "flawed" reality to support your case. Let me educate you on what really happened from someone who was around for it.

Yes, Marino went to a team that was coming off a SB loss. An aging team, that benefitted from the strike-shortened season, and is considered one of the weaker SB teams ever. But he still went 12-4, 14-2, and 12-4 over his FIRST 3 years in the NFL. This included the best rookie season by a QB ever(2nd-team all-pro), and the arguably the best season by a QB ever. And he lost a SB to one of the best teams ever(1984 SF). All while many of those players from 1982 were retiring or playing on their last legs.

And that 4.0 YPC would have been 16th in the NFL that season. That's below-average, not a "good" number like you claim. They averaged 30 rushes per game. Good for 17th in the league. Not a low number caused by a "ballhog".

Yeah, Marino had the #1 DEF twice. His rookie year, and his next to last year. Lost both times in the division round of playoffs. Manning had the #1 DEF in 2007 and lost 1st game. He also had the #2 DEF in 2005 and lost in 1st round. That #2 DEF gave up less PPG than either of MIA's #1 DEF's did. So what was the point of this statement?

Now, as for your Pro Bowl statement. Marino played with 24 players who combined to make 54 appearances in his 17 years Can't use Marino's own appearances to help your case. That's just sad. And 13 of those 54 came in Marino's 1st 2 seasons.

As you have been told already, Shula ran the ball as his "system" until Marino came around. He changed Shula's entire way of thinking. That and the death of David Overstreet, who would have been that top-tier back they always searched for, cause Shula to have to throw to win. Losing Keuchenberg(83), Newman(84), and HOF Stephenson(87) hurt a great deal. And Shula still tried to establish the run at the start of many games. But it would always fail and they would have to throw to catch back up.

Did Marino's play "drop-off" in the playoffs. Absolutely. But so does Peyton's. Not seeing a significant separation in the two of them. If the Colts DEF doesn't get hot and healthy in 2006, Peyton still doesn't have a ring.

And also remember, Marino had to play his entire career under the rules the Peyton did from 1998-2003. Peyton's numbers took a large "spike" in 2004 when the rules opened up the passing game more. That's not just a coincidence.

Just because you can "cherry-pick" a few stats doesn't indicate you have a real understanding of what they actually mean, or how they came to be.