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The OP basically posits a very simple premise: its more fun to game with friends and rivals, than with strangers.

is it? It is his opinion of so .. but it does not make it true for everyone. Fun is subjective. In fact, sometimes, for me of course, playign with stranger is more fun because there is no commitment or obligation. If i want to leave, i don't have to worry about my friend getting upset.

I think the broader point is, the quality of community does matter. Sadly, most of those innovative features exist because of poor communities making game progression difficult.

Matter to whom? Certainly not to me. There are plenty of people to play with. There are plenty of friends to play with. Convenience is much more important than finding nice people .. because if they are not nice, i am out of there in a second.

Says the guy who has repeatedly said he likes/prefers soloing and doesn't group or interact with others in games.

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Originally posted by GreenHell

If community is so important to people why are the games that focus on community never a huge success? Where does community stand as far as how important it is to people? It can't be very high on the list. If it was WoW sure wouldn't be what it is and has been for over 8 years. Because as everyone on these forums says WoW has the worst community ever.

I guess I just don't understand how it can be both ways. If community is so important than WoW should not have ever been popular..unless WoW's community isnt as bad as so many people on these forums say it is...or...Community is not as imporatnt as these people say and that is why wow is popular. Someone has to be wrong.

Please name me these MMORPG's post-WoW that's focus was community.

WoW was popular because it introduced the main stream gamer to a previously niche genre of gaming. Hence why it's community was so piss poor. Tons of console players, etc. Plus, the more players, the more likely it will have a larger percentage of idiots.

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Originally posted by xeniar

Originally posted by GreenHell

wow used to have a much better community.

wow still has pockets of good community, but many of us are looking for something besides wow. there is more to it than just community. wow simply isn't challenging unless you are running hard mode raids. wow used to be challenging just running strat/scholo and ubrs. the leveling dungeons used to be challenging.

Blizzard tried to go back to the more challenging dungeons with Cata and what happened? Something like 2 million people left. That is not what those people wanted in a MMORPG.

Greenhell rofl.... No you got it wrong there.

People got fed up with themeparks. not the game starting to be more chalanging again.

I disagree with you. Not entirely though. Yes, any game or type of game gets old after awhile and people will leave. Honestly though WoW had been pretty much the same through WotLK. It was always a themepark. It wasn't until CATA that people really started to jump ship. The casual player did not want to spend an hour in a 5 man. Things like CC (something i actually enjoy) were obviously not popular because that is all but gone in MOP. WoW has once again turned back to the more casual player. Very fast, easy 5 mans, Scenarios and now single player sceanrios. The game has become much easier again. Why would Blizzard do that if their research did not show that is what people wanted?

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Originally posted by GreenHell

Originally posted by xeniar

Originally posted by GreenHell

wow used to have a much better community.

wow still has pockets of good community, but many of us are looking for something besides wow. there is more to it than just community. wow simply isn't challenging unless you are running hard mode raids. wow used to be challenging just running strat/scholo and ubrs. the leveling dungeons used to be challenging.

Blizzard tried to go back to the more challenging dungeons with Cata and what happened? Something like 2 million people left. That is not what those people wanted in a MMORPG.

Greenhell rofl.... No you got it wrong there.

People got fed up with themeparks. not the game starting to be more chalanging again.

I disagree with you. Not entirely though. Yes, any game or type of game gets old after awhile and people will leave. Honestly though WoW had been pretty much the same through WotLK. It was always a themepark. It wasn't until CATA that people really started to jump ship. The casual player did not want to spend an hour in a 5 man. Things like CC (something i actually enjoy) were obviously not popular because that is all but gone in MOP. WoW has once again turned back to the more casual player. Very fast, easy 5 mans, Scenarios and now single player sceanrios. The game has become much easier again. Why would Blizzard do that if their research did not show that is what people wanted?

I have to agree with you that Yup we are back at the zerg 15min dungeons. I was under the impresion that people did not like to "grind" thats what these dungeons feel like to me. a meaningless gear grind :D

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Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Originally posted by GreenHell

If community is so important to people why are the games that focus on community never a huge success? Where does community stand as far as how important it is to people? It can't be very high on the list. If it was WoW sure wouldn't be what it is and has been for over 8 years. Because as everyone on these forums says WoW has the worst community ever.

I guess I just don't understand how it can be both ways. If community is so important than WoW should not have ever been popular..unless WoW's community isnt as bad as so many people on these forums say it is...or...Community is not as imporatnt as these people say and that is why wow is popular. Someone has to be wrong.

Please name me these MMORPG's post-WoW that's focus was community.

WoW was popular because it introduced the main stream gamer to a previously niche genre of gaming. Hence why it's community was so piss poor. Tons of console players, etc. Plus, the more players, the more likely it will have a larger percentage of idiots.

Fallen Earth was more community orientated. VG was more community orientated. Ryzom launched around the same time as WoW. Maybe a month or 2 earlier.

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Community means nothing to me most of my interactions with people historically in MMO's are negative my guild matters to me and the rest are strangers, why in the hell would i wanna get to know a bunch of entitled brats who complain at the drop of a hat. Game designers are catching on to the fact that most community interactions have no value so of course they are desiging games around not being part of the community good, a tremendous amount of interactions with the community mean putting up with drama, getting threatened ....dealing with people with massive ego's that are perfectly content to ruin whatever raid or group activity for thier own selfish motivations. Look at the chat channels in most games and if you honestly think there is value in that interaction than my conclusion is that more than likely your one of the people wasting everyone's time.

The whole point of being in a guild for me is so that may game play experience isn't wattered down by bad behavior incompetance, and selfishness. Why would I wanna get rid of features that are innovative because they allow less idiots to encroach on me actually enjoying the game. If anti-social behavior was not so rampent amongst gamers maybe people like me might actually care about community, but calling what i see in most MMO's a community is like saying a civil war in a leper colony is a fun place to be. The problem isn't the game design features ....the problem is a lot of us.

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Originally posted by WellzyC

Innovation is a nice 50 cent word that mmo devs love to throw around when they are talking about their game. “Our game is innovative because we have these systems in place, or we do this in order to make your experience more convenient and fun”.

But innovation comes in many different forms and has lots of different paths. The most common path of “innovation” that seems to be really popular with game devs is convenience. How can we game the game more accessible, faster, and easier for casual players to get into. These innovative systems are designed to allow people to be more independent, to be put in groups at the touch of a button, and place every single person on one giant server.

Sound good right? We’ll here’s the problem with that.

While watching the Dave Georgenson interview it started to get me thinking about “depth of features” and how recent mmos claim to be innovative but have created convenience systems in their game that actively discourage player interaction and the development of community. Lots of features in new mmos that have taken away the need or ability to get to know the people you encounter.

Examples?

The dungeon finder: You don’t have to actively talk to people and recruit them in order to form a group.

No loot sharing: This is a small one, but small things add up, when a creature or boss dies everyone has a copy of the loot so there is no need to discuss who gets what, or talk about something “cool that dropped”.

Instanced story content and cut scenes: I have talked before about how I despise scripted content, so I won’t go into that again, but there are a lot of games making instanced stories and cut scenes the main focus of the game. Interaction between players is not wanted when someone is trying to read or listen to dialog. In Swtor, I actually had a guy leave the Vent channel because people were talking over his cut scenes.. you kidding me?

The Mega Server: this one gets me the most, and not just ESO, gw2 has a similar problem. Community is developed by familiarity, when you see the same people over and over again, you are far more likely to talk with them and interact. If you see the same five people in a public dungeon that you saw yesterday, you are more likely to strike up a conversation or group. Seeing the same guilds and seeing the same enemies creates comradery and creates rivelries. You don’t feel inclined to remember anyone you grouped with, or try to interact with them beyond going through the motions of a group if you know there is little to no chance you will ever see that player again.

These are just some examples of a larger growing problem. Innovation is way too focused on creating convenience that is phasing out community. This is why older MMOs have lasted so long, years and years, because community has been created over the need to get to know the people you play with. You have to be in good standing with other players in order to survive and get anything meaningful accomplished.

MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

Not all innovation is bad, it still is a good word and games need to be innovative in order to survive this really competitive game market. But through innovation developers are sabotaging themselves by creating a shallow game that has only enough short term appeal as the shiny combat, or fancy scripted content that they have created. Completely forgetting the very essence of what makes an mmo great, creating a community through depth of features, familiarity, and the need to rely on others.

‘Till next time!

I agree with your assertion that Devs are choosing the path of convenience, rather than the path of true innovation.

I also agree that the evolution of MMO's has eroded the fabric of community in these games. Each iteration becoming more selfish than the previous.

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Basically your not pointing at 'innovation' as much as you are making things 'easier' or 'dumbed down'. In that caswe I do agree, its making this often worst in many cases.

That being said, I feel innovation is GOOD for games, its just about doing the right things and making it good. Obviously there is bad innovation, but truthfully I consider them in another light, much of what you view it as to me just being 'features' or 'options' rather then innovating anything.

Though again, I do have strict views on whats called 'innovating' as well. Things like Guildwars 2's 'quest system (aka hearts) to me wouldn't be considered innovating. Rift IAs.... eh... a bit closer but still not really innovating. I'd say Tera's Combat System put in an MMo setting in its style would be the last real 'innovating' thing I'd say, granted its been done in other games I know in the past, though not to the degree it really pulled off... still a bit iffy really.

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MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

So? Obviously communtiy is not requierd to have fun .. and the innvoations you described recognize that.

I like all those features. No ninja-loot system is great. LFD is great. LFR is great .. for me, of course.

Short term fun, I feel that without the depth of features that comes from a game that supports interaction and requries it, is far more entertaining and has that elusive "longevity" that todays overly scripted, convience oriented mmos severly lack.

yeah .. short term fun. And there are endless games to try so it is not like there will be a shortage of fun in the future. I would rather have short term good fun, then long term mediocre fun in a single game. And all entertainment gets boring in a while.

You are the problem with mmo communities, and people just like you. MMO's were originally and still trying to be a home for players to have fun and make connections over a long period of time. That is why they are never supposed to have an "end".

But people in your boat consume like locusts and then move on to the next host to devour. And then there are a slew of ghost town games, some because they were poorly made and others because of nomad gamers.

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I don't really understand why anyone in here would say community is unimportant to an MMO, other than the fact that they are most likely anti-social jerks who no body would want to interact with in the first place. They claim that WoW, undoubtedly the most successful MMO of our generation to date, held no emphasis on community. Clearly the never looked outside of their miniscule social group of themselves and their hunter pets.

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Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

I don't really understand why anyone in here would say community is unimportant to an MMO, other than the fact that they are most likely anti-social jerks who no body would want to interact with in the first place. They claim that WoW, undoubtedly the most successful MMO of our generation to date, held no emphasis on community. Clearly the never looked outside of their miniscule social group of themselves and their hunter pets.

WoW is / was heavily critized by the 'pro-community' group for introducing mechanics that 'destorys communities'.

The LFG / solo-to-end-game mechanic all came from WoW.

Some people like a good community and some people don't particularly care.

For the past 7+ years, its been shown that the vast majority don't really care about communities.

Whether you like that fact or not is irrelevent. Tough.

Gdemami -Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

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Originally posted by bingbongbros

yeah .. short term fun. And there are endless games to try so it is not like there will be a shortage of fun in the future. I would rather have short term good fun, then long term mediocre fun in a single game. And all entertainment gets boring in a while.

You are the problem with mmo communities, and people just like you. MMO's were originally and still trying to be a home for players to have fun and make connections over a long period of time. That is why they are never supposed to have an "end".

But people in your boat consume like locusts and then move on to the next host to devour. And then there are a slew of ghost town games, some because they were poorly made and others because of nomad gamers.

It's amusing how you blame the consumer for playing games the way they want to. Perhaps this consumer is not looking for a "home" but instead is looking to have a good time? Shouldn't something that is called a game be enjoyable? You would think so. By your logic however even if you don't enjoy it you should stay and make it your home? That just doesn't make any sense.

He is not the problem with MMOs today. When it stops being fun he walks away. This doesnt sound reasonable to you? Did you ever stop and think that perhaps you want to much from a game? It is after all just a game.

You say people like him "consume like locusts and then move on" well if there was enough new and interesting content being added then he would stay and consume that. Sadly there isn't. Your expectations of what a modern MMO player should be are outdated and really don't even make sense. Why would anyone keep paying for and playing something that is not fun? Why would you do this?

This isn't 1999 where if you wanted to play an MMO you have 2 choices. There are tons of games to play. Why not move on if you are not having a good time?

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Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

I don't really understand why anyone in here would say community is unimportant to an MMO, other than the fact that they are most likely anti-social jerks who no body would want to interact with in the first place. They claim that WoW, undoubtedly the most successful MMO of our generation to date, held no emphasis on community. Clearly the never looked outside of their miniscule social group of themselves and their hunter pets.

WoW is / was heavily critized by the 'pro-community' group for introducing mechanics that 'destorys communities'.

The LFG / solo-to-end-game mechanic all came from WoW.

Some people like a good community and some people don't particularly care.

For the past 7+ years, its been shown that the vast majority don't really care about communities.

Whether you like that fact or not is irrelevent. Tough.

This. People don't like facts though. They are blinded by what they want. Blinded to the point where logic and facts don't matter. Reduced to labeling people that don't agree with them. If a community driven game is in such high demand...where is it? Why isn't a triple A studio making loads of money off of it right now? Why is WoW still king and has been for over 8 years?

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All those lfg or mega server didn't destroy the community. There never was one to begin with. I played wow, and I played GW2. Before raid finder I was spaming 1 hour + to group with people I completely don't know.

Before someone made a lfg site for GW2 I was always doing dungeon with people I dont' know too. So I don't know where you getting at.

You really need a game which is almost dead to have a community. Since the smaller the populaton is, it is easier for everyone on the server to know each other. And I played a few of those.

There are just too many people on a server in wow and GW2, whenever I try to form a dungeon, it is always with people I dont' know.

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Originally posted by GreenHell

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

I don't really understand why anyone in here would say community is unimportant to an MMO, other than the fact that they are most likely anti-social jerks who no body would want to interact with in the first place. They claim that WoW, undoubtedly the most successful MMO of our generation to date, held no emphasis on community. Clearly the never looked outside of their miniscule social group of themselves and their hunter pets.

WoW is / was heavily critized by the 'pro-community' group for introducing mechanics that 'destorys communities'.

The LFG / solo-to-end-game mechanic all came from WoW.

Some people like a good community and some people don't particularly care.

For the past 7+ years, its been shown that the vast majority don't really care about communities.

Whether you like that fact or not is irrelevent. Tough.

This. People don't like facts though. They are blinded by what they want. Blinded to the point where logic and facts don't matter. Reduced to labeling people that don't agree with them. If a community driven game is in such high demand...where is it? Why isn't a triple A studio making loads of money off of it right now? Why is WoW still king and has been for over 8 years?

Granted, calling names is bound to draw a reciprical reaction but I feel there may be a misconception here. Just because a company, take Blizzard, does not specifically put community related features in does not mean it isn't important to them. Up until now it's been the players themselves that drive a community, this on a sliding scale dependent on how the game plays (solo play vs group play emphisis). Likewise just because people play a game without a bigger sense of community doesn't mean they wouldn't like it if the rest of the game is enjoyable, could be they have never had it. People play MMOs for a multitude of reasons.

I believe that there is at least one big AAA game that will put an emphisis on player interaction and on how we interact. Just four more months...

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Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

I don't really understand why anyone in here would say community is unimportant to an MMO, other than the fact that they are most likely anti-social jerks who no body would want to interact with in the first place. They claim that WoW, undoubtedly the most successful MMO of our generation to date, held no emphasis on community. Clearly the never looked outside of their miniscule social group of themselves and their hunter pets.

"Anti-social jerks" ....

Socialism isn't a good thing. And true communion is on a spiritual level...

I've had to turn off /map chat in my games, and am having a much better time because I'm super sensitive to peoples energy, even in a video game or on message boards. I'm able to enjoy myself a lot more than having to try and fit in with "society".

And plus, I perfer the immersion that sticking too /say has... it makes my game like a journey, even if I am a solo player. I'm way more immersed, yet I don't roleplay as much as I used too when I was younger.

Again, just because someone doesn't make noise every second of their waking life doesn't mean they don't have the ability to speak fluently, or that they aren't deep hearted, caring, loving and divine beings.

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Originally posted by bingbongbros

Originally posted by nariusseldon

yeah .. short term fun. And there are endless games to try so it is not like there will be a shortage of fun in the future. I would rather have short term good fun, then long term mediocre fun in a single game. And all entertainment gets boring in a while.

You are the problem with mmo communities, and people just like you. MMO's were originally and still trying to be a home for players to have fun and make connections over a long period of time. That is why they are never supposed to have an "end".

They are not very successful at the original idea, are they? There is nothing they are "supposed" to be. They are just entertainment products .. and try to survive in the market place.

But people in your boat consume like locusts and then move on to the next host to devour. And then there are a slew of ghost town games, some because they were poorly made and others because of nomad gamers.

Don't sound like your entertainment preference is special and "better" than others. I use my entertainment my way, and vote with my wallet. You do the same. Yeah, of course i game-hop. That is human nature to have a variety of experiences. So what there is a slew of ghost town games. Just play the next one that is not.

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Originally posted by laokokoThere "never" was any community setup in WoW and GW2. "never". That was before the lfg tool or website is setup.

I ran dungeons everyday and with different people every single time and never seen them again.

So how does the lfg tool destroyed the community? There never was one to begin with.

My point is those are completely different games. It is not the lfg tools, it is just the way the game is desgined.

Its not the LFG tool and its not the "way the game is designed"(what are you even talking about here?) its about the way people play MMOs now.

Back in the "good ol' days" people would play one particular MMO for years because there were very few choices back then, people were in school so they had time to be on the game for hours and hours everyday and everyone knew everyone because the servers held less people.

In today's MMOs people dont stick with one MMO for years they constantly hop around to the new releases.

People dont play for hours and hours everyday, more like a couple hours a week.

And servers hold a lot more people than they did back in 2000.

These factors contribute to a central community being unable to form in MMOs today. People just like to place the blame on something like the LFG tool because otherwise they would realize the blame is on them.