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Pastor Schneider's childhood pastor's quote could be taken another way - that since Jesus is for all mankind, he in some sense is with everyone, even the wicked Samaritans. That reading makes more sense than the idea that "there are no right sides in any division."

'course I think you'll never find a religion that stays constant to its written doctrines. (Where's the verse that says "I come to call not the righteous, but sinners to go on sinning any way they please"?)

If the surrounding culture becomes gay-friendlier, so will the prevailing religion in time -- if more militant and patriotic, same answer -- if more pacifist, same answer. And the scriptures will be read creatively, or politely ignored, to fit this new reality.

Where's the verse that says "I come to call not the righteous, but sinners to go on sinning any way they please"?

Spoken like a Lutheran! ("If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides.")

With respect to teaching a child to sin, I have seen loving parents raise a child to be helpless. Something called "learned helplessness" is a horrible burden for an adult. They were disappointed, and had no idea what they'd done to create the problem.

I agree we should recognize sin for what it is, and do our best to avoid miring our children in it, for serious sins, such as envy, sloth, hatred, gluttony and greed burden a person and make life hard.

But even with that example, we are talking about a single act or project, not everything a person has done in life. So, I'll offer an aphorism for whole people:

"There's so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that the rest of us have no room to talk."

I don't think they had Jesus hammered onto a cross because he spent so much time explaining to both sides of every conflict how they should just get along.

I suspect that this is a person who dislikes open conflict as a matter of personality (though he may be viciously contentious in indirect ways - don't know), and chooses to feel morally superior because of it.

Like Antonio Banderas said in the film, I'm a sinner. I am a rather bold one, which might please Luther; I don't know that I believe, as he did, that it is the right way. All the same, it seems to be my way.

It is one thing to say that we ought to be bold in expecting forgiveness for real sin; and another to say that we can't recognize the reality of sin. That, as Chesterton said, is the one part of Christian theology that can really be proved: sin you can see in the street.

What you can't see, again as Luther said, is justice: I believe in justice, but such a belief is more properly religious than a belief in sin. Sin I've seen, and known, everywhere I've been; justice I've never seen.

I think the advice about who's on the other side of the line is excellent when the demarcation concerns cliques, and worthless when it identifies unrepentant sin. Jesus didn't say, "Go, and keep on sinning if it's in accordance with the most up-to-date trend and promotes your pleasure."

It's my understanding that we're to be immovable about our duty to God and our fellow man, but we're not to indulge in resentment against anyone who violates those duties. That doesn't mean that we're to pretend they did nothing wrong, or that we're not to prevent their doing harm if we can, but that we shouldn't nurse rancor or wallow in a feeling of superiority. The anger is there to spur us to action, but we should drop it as soon as we can.

I think the advice about who's on the other side of the line is excellent when the demarcation concerns cliques, and worthless when it identifies unrepentant sin. Jesus didn't say, "Go, and keep on sinning if it's in accordance with the most up-to-date trend and promotes your pleasure."

It's my understanding that we're to be immovable about our duty to God and our fellow man, but we're not to indulge in resentment against anyone who violates those duties. That doesn't mean that we're to pretend they did nothing wrong, or that we're not to prevent their doing harm if we can, but that we shouldn't nurse rancor or wallow in a feeling of superiority. The anger is there to spur us to action, but we should drop it as soon as we can.

One week later, there was a circle of bamboo poles around their grave, with a VC head atop each.

I've seen vengeance, which in the best cases you might even call seeing the shadow of justice. It's one of the reasons I believe in justice, even though I never encounter the thing itself.

But what when we see the sick deprived of those who cared for them, without compensation; or for that matter, when we ask why some people are born sick in a poor and terrible place, and others are not? When the people who tried to address that injustice are murdered?

If the best we can do is put the heads of the guilty on stakes, well, we should do that. But justice? I believe in it, but it doesn't exist in the world. Where even its shadow exists, it exists because we make it: but how did we learn to do even that much? We must have learned, but how do we learn from something that we never encounter?

If you start with the premise that we all start out guilty, Christ then becomes the satisfaction of justice. I can know Him who took my punishment upon Himself.

Justification by Faith

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

I've seen vengeance, which in the best cases you might even call seeing the shadow of justice. It's one of the reasons I believe in justice, even though I never encounter the thing itself.

Justice involves both the imposition of a penalty on the transgressor and the restoration of the victim to his previous state, and there's no one living on Earth right now who can accomplish both of those requirements.

The shadow of justice or "rough justice" is the closest we poor mortals will ever be able to get to it...

The shadow of justice or "rough justice" is the closest we poor mortals will ever be able to get to it...

My point. We believe in something that we not only do not attain, but in fact cannot attain because it is incompatible with the facts of the world. Yet we do believe in it, and strive for it. We want justice in our world, though the world cannot have taught us to expect it or even how to judge what it ought to look like.

In some cases, justice of that sort CAN be had (in some few cases). If I damage your property, I can suffer a penalty and restore your property to the state it was before or replace it with a new item. If I injure you, I can suffer a penalty and pay for your medical bills required to get you back to the physical state you were previously.

Now clearly, some things can't be fixed or replaced. But sometimes they can. And I guess our concept of justice is based on those things we CAN get "perfect justice" on.

"One week later, there was a circle of bamboo poles around their grave, with a VC head atop each."

My analysis of Palestinian prisoner exchanges is that the proper ratio between good and evil is 1 good person for every 1000 evil agents. That's the market rate. Anything lower, is a bad bargain for the buyer.