On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>Just pointing out that the attraction of the old and tradional isn't going>to be attractive to everyone. Humans are programmed to continue pushing>into new places, developing new inventions and extracting from nature.>It is one of the reasons we are such a successful species. I don't totally>agree with a lot of 'progress' in the modern world, but I don't have my>head in the sand. The world is changing every day - climbing will change>with it. Have a think about the world you were born into - for me the late>70s. Obviously there has been vast changes in every aspect of life - why>should you expect that climbing world would be excluded from this change?>My great aunt died a few months back - she was 101. When she was born the>aero plane didn't exist. Neither did the modern car. Or the phone. Or computers.>Or nylon. Or bolted easy routes.

On 13/02/2013 wallwombat wrote:>Have you ever taken a lead fall on gear, Miguel?

I have, (but my horse hasn't) though its only recently, say the last 8 months, that I've started to really trust my gear placements and push myself to a level where I actually had to trust the gear.

I took a fun sized fall (~5 meters) on Xanthene the other week and quite enjoyed the experience though yesterday's fall on Golgotha was a different experience;) Not too big a fall but I was gripped to begin with and wasn't able to clip my piece before sliding out of the crack...

On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>Just pointing out that the attraction of the old and tradional isn't going>to be attractive to everyone. Humans are programmed to continue pushing>into new places, developing new inventions and extracting from nature.>It is one of the reasons we are such a successful species. I don't totally>agree with a lot of 'progress' in the modern world, but I don't have my>head in the sand. The world is changing every day - climbing will change>with it. Have a think about the world you were born into - for me the late>70s. Obviously there has been vast changes in every aspect of life - why>should you expect that climbing world would be excluded from this change?>My great aunt died a few months back - she was 101. When she was born the>aero plane didn't exist. Neither did the modern car. Or the phone. Or computers.>Or nylon. Or bolted easy routes.

On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>Just pointing out that the attraction of the old and tradional isn't going>to be attractive to everyone. SNIP...>My great aunt died a few months back - she was 101. When she was born the>aero plane didn't exist. Neither did the modern car. Or the phone. Or computers.>Or nylon. Or bolted easy routes.

Sorry to hear about your great Aunt; 101 is an amazing innings. Things have changed, mostly for the better, some for the worse. The decline of civility and manners is a shame and I reckon a real loss to us all.

EDIT: In your great Aunts time they'd also given very little thought to conservation of finite resources. Why should we bolt everything and anything with no thought for future generations of climbers?

On 13/02/2013 dalai wrote:>What has this got to do with retrobolting existing climbs?

Not much. But it does relate to bolting easy climbs that some consider 'worthless'. A lot of people enjoy these climbs. One visit to Nowra's descent gully walls on a weekend or Dams Cliff or any of a myriad of newer easy bolted crags will show you that easy bolted routes are part of this generations climbing experiance. To deny this is putting your head in the sand.

On 13/02/2013 Miguel75 wrote:>EDIT: In your great Aunts time they'd also given very little thought to>conservation of finite resources. Why should we bolt everything and anything>with no thought for future generations of climbers?

What if the future generations want easy bolted routes? The current generation certainly does. A few bolts is nothing compared to much larger development. As climbers we argue about a few bolts whilst loving the new double lane highways that get us to the cliffs faster. We tap away on mobile phones that require transmitters and satellites that required vast amounts of rocket fuel to launch. There ws talk about building a gondola to Buffalo a few years back! These new bolts at Buffalo seem to be carrots and almost invisible - I certainly can't see them in the photos posted. Give the climbs a few years - if they get covered in lichen and remain unrepeated then consider pulling the bolts. But if others seem to enjoy them then surely they have some merit? Just because you don't like them doesn't make it wrong. I hate thin techincal faces, it doesn't mean I go around chopping bolts from routes in that style.

Why? This is a comment directly about these new routes. The bolt choppers seem to be warming up their grinders in the belief that everyone thinks these bolted easy routes are abominations. There are plenty of tiny bolted routes all around Melbourne (Black Hill & Youies spring to mind). Why are these routes any different to the new Buffalo climbs? Some will say these Melbourne crags are ok to bolt as they are only 'local crags' - well Buffalo is Andrews local crag so why can't he bolt routes like ones in Black Hill or the Youies?

On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>Give the climbs a few years - if they get covered in lichen and remain unrepeated then>consider pulling the bolts. But if others seem to enjoy them then surely>they have some merit? Just because you don't like them doesn't make it>wrong. I hate thin techincal faces, it doesn't mean I go around chopping>bolts from routes in that style.

So large number of ascents = worth???

There are a number of routes I saved due to their reputation. Many only getting a few ascents if that a year! So because they were only attempted by the few who took the challenge presented, I should have retro bolted them?

There are enough existing bolted routes on Buffalo without having to retro...

>There are plenty of tiny bolted routes all around Melbourne (Black Hill & Youies spring to mind). Why are>these routes any different to the new Buffalo climbs? Some will say these>Melbourne crags are ok to bolt as they are only 'local crags' - well Buffalo>is Andrews local crag so why can't he bolt routes like ones in Black Hill>or the Youies?

Not okay to bolt there either. Some recent bolted routes were boulder problems for goodness sake!!!

There are enough crap short bolted routes there already, we don't need more.

Errr - yes. That is a whole other discussion really, but I do see more value in a route that actually gets ascents. If climbign involved just sitting around and thinking about maybe one day possibly when I'm ready or stronger doing a climb then I wouldn't be climber! Climbing involves climbing not just thinking about climbing.

>There are a number of routes I saved due to their reputation. Many only>getting a few ascents if that a year! So because they were only attempted>by the few who took the challenge presented, I should have retro bolted>them?

Errr no. I wasn't talking about retrobolting.

>There are enough existing bolted routes on Buffalo without having to retro...

On 13/02/2013 dalai wrote:>Not okay to bolt there either. Some recent bolted routes were boulder>problems for goodness sake!!! >>There are enough crap short bolted routes there already, we don't need>more.

There you go again - short and bolted doesn't equal crap to some climbers. That is your own preference. You want (wanted?) to climb harder long routes. Yay for you.

The way I read this topic, people are angry with the retro bolts and not the short easy route...

On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>There you go again - short and bolted doesn't equal crap to some climbers.

Yes it does - do you think given the choice people would take a You Yangs micro route over a longer climb in Summerday valley or rambling classic at Arapiles? They and I climbed there because it was climbable rock close to Melbourne. You lived here and kept driving up the Western highway at every chance...

On 13/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>On 13/02/2013 Miguel75 wrote:>>EDIT: In your great Aunts time they'd also given very little thought>to>>conservation of finite resources. Why should we bolt everything and anything>>with no thought for future generations of climbers?>>What if the future generations want easy bolted routes? The current generation>certainly does. A few bolts is nothing compared to much larger development.>As climbers we argue about a few bolts whilst loving the new double lane>highways that get us to the cliffs faster. We tap away on mobile phones>that require transmitters and satellites that required vast amounts of>rocket fuel to launch. There ws talk about building a gondola to Buffalo>a few years back! These new bolts at Buffalo seem to be carrots and almost>invisible - I certainly can't see them in the photos posted. Give the climbs>a few years - if they get covered in lichen and remain unrepeated then>consider pulling the bolts. But if others seem to enjoy them then surely>they have some merit? Just because you don't like them doesn't make it>wrong. I hate thin techincal faces, it doesn't mean I go around chopping>bolts from routes in that style.

I don't not like bolts;) I'm not an environmentalist by any stretch and you won't find me padlocked to any machinery at the new multi lane super highway going through town BUT you will find me taking a stance when I feel I can make a difference. The aforementioned new route at WG looks pretty fun and doesn't look like it'd go on gear so unless you like highball shenanigans it'd remain barren, bereft of attention. It has 3 rings and double ring lower off. I like the look of it! In fact I'll probably climb it next time I'm there.

On the otherhand if someone decided to bolt Death Gate I would kick up a fuss. It's only a gr13, but the rock is crap, the gear is crap and its kinda exciting to have it there as something on which to test yourself, if that sort of climb floats your boat. If it were bolted it'd be nothing but a chossy WG climb, only without the ledge running through the middle;)

I as an individual can't stop the super highways being built, mobile phones using rare earth minerals, satellites blasting off into space or North Korea testing nuclear weapons underground but I pledge to no longer park in handicap parking spaces, especially if they're occupied;)* I also reckon I'll thoroughly investigate any retro bolting that happens in my 'hood' and if necessary deal out passive aggressive vigilante justice like only wannabe cowboys know how...

I'll be at Buffalo this weekend and will look to climb Profanities. I've done the Pintle LHV and didn't need the bolt so that's saying something;)

On 13/02/2013 Miguel75 wrote:>snip>>On the otherhand if someone decided to bolt Death Gate I would kick up>a fuss. It's only a gr13, but the rock is crap, the gear is crap and its>kinda exciting to have it there as something on which to test yourself,>if that sort of climb floats your boat. If it were bolted it'd be nothing>but a chossy WG climb, only without the ledge running through the middle;)>>snip>>I'll be at Buffalo this weekend and will look to climb Profanities. I've>done the Pintle LHV and didn't need the bolt so that's saying something;)>

The big difference is that you've climbed the WG climbs (many times) before, I assume you haven't climbed Profanities? Despite all these posts no one yet has gone out climbed the climbs and reported back with facts. If this was retro-ed by someone in the club I doubt there would be the outrage.

And my 2 cents on the Pintle LHV, only climbed it once (before the bolt) had read/heard it was run out but found it fine. But again no one has bothered to go up there and place the gear and report back with facts.

This thread does nothing to encourage bolters to come forward and justify there actions or discuss their future intentions.

On 14/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:>The big difference is that you've climbed the WG climbs (many times) before,>I assume you haven't climbed Profanities? Despite all these posts no>one yet has gone out climbed the climbs and reported back with facts. If>this was retro-ed by someone in the club I doubt there would be the outrage.

Guilty as charged rolsen1, I have yet to climb Profanities but will try this weekend. GIven the previous history of retro bolting at Buffalo, and the ensuing argy bargy, I'm saddened by (perceived) pointless bolting. Whether or not the bolter is a VCC member is irrelevant in my mind. If Profanities had no gear than maybe the bolts are a good thing? Maybe they're not. More edumacated/local climbers will answer this. The Pintle doesn't need a bolt that much is for certain.

I will do my best to climb Profanities this weekend and report on it's awesomeness, or lack thereof...

>And my 2 cents on the Pintle LHV, only climbed it once (before the bolt)>had read/heard it was run out but found it fine. But again no one has bothered>to go up there and place the gear and report back with facts.

I'm with you on this one. I have been known to climb like a freaking sooky lala and I found the Pintle LHV fine without the bolt. Spicey, but fine:)

>This thread does nothing to encourage bolters to come forward and justify>there actions or discuss their future intentions.

You are correct that threads like these may dissuade bolters from discussing their deeds here but at least they'll know that no good deed will go unpunished:) Passionate people discussing passionate issues throw down passionate responses:) I reckon one of the reasons this thread turned a little ugly is (in part) due to Andrew's unwillingness to answer the questions put to him by the baying mob:) As a local, and with the previous bolting snafu's at Buffalo, he should have known that his buddies bolting actions, right, wrong or otherwise would likely end up with a debate like this.

EDIT: Please don't misunderstand me, I in no way think I'm anything more than a climber who frequents WG and loves to play around on rock. I do not intend to chop any bolts this weekend:) I am passionate about looking after our playgrounds and feel the best way is to get involved on a community level...

On 14/02/2013 patto wrote:>There are dozens if not hundreds of climbs at Buffalo deserving of a bolt>if Pintle/Pintle LHV deserves a bolt.>>The fact is that this bolting and any further bolting of this nature will>change the character of Buffalo climbing significantly in the areas affected.>>Any and all bolting of existing trad crags should be done with consultation>of the community. While this isn't easy, it is necessary, as it is not>up to one person to change the crag for all.

For starters Buffalo clearly isn't a trad crag! There are a LOT of bolts on all sorts of routes - from safeish climbs at Dreamworld to runout slabs on the Horn etc. None of these bolts required "consultation with the community" before being placed. Why start now?