I am not disagreeing so much as wondering where are all these verses are that "say," God is holy and God is a spirit? I do not accept that God is "a" holy spirit. I just rubs me wrong how man has this seeming need to separate and discect ONE. As far as I know God is spirit, please let us leave the "A" out.

"This is pretty conclusive not even counting all the old testament verses that say God is Holy and God is Spirit, which makes God a Holy Spirit."

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

jaareshiah

Jaareshiah,Again, you didn't answer the question. You brought up some obscure translations that perhaps translated it the way the JW's did. This does not mean it was correct. I agree with you in that the King James translation was incorrect in adding (he)The point is "ego eimi" is and alsways should be translated "I am"The fact that the Jews picked up stones to stone him to death. Blasphemy was a crime punishable by stoning and by Jesus claiming I AM it was the same as making himself equal with God.New World translation reads:

John 10:32-33 Jesus replied to them: "I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?" 33 The Jews answered him: "We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy,even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god."This is of course a mistranslation because the jews were monotheistic and would never have said "a god" (another reason why John, a Jew, would never have written "and the Word was "a God" in John 1:1 This is Young's literal translation:John 10:32Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'10:33The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'

The evidence is there regardless of how you see it. The King James Bible is not a Bible that anyone can "hang their hat on" due to its many inaccuracies. The King James translators recognized at John 9:9, the need to add the word "he" for clarification and then many have tried to attach John 8:58, with its rendering of "I AM" with Exodus 3:14, with the King James Bible reading there as "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

But, had you really done your homework rather than quickly assuming that this correct, you could have seen that the Hebrew "היהא רשא היהא ('Ehˇyeh´ 'Asher´ 'Ehˇyeh´) at Exodus 3:14, is more accurately rendered as "I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE" (Leeser); "I Will Become whatsoever I please." (Rotherham) and by the Scripture4all interlinear as "I shall become who I am becoming", taking into consideration the Hebrew word hayah, which the King James Bible does not even recognize. The Greek Septuagint translated the Hebrew at Exodus 3:14 as "Eˇgo´ eiˇmi ho on, "I am The Being," or, "I am The Existing One", not just as "I AM".

Had you looked more closely, you would have considered the Hebrew word hayah that is within Exodus 3:14 three times and it could have been seen that hayah means "become: cause to be", with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible rendering it as "exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass."

At Exodus 3:14, 'Ehˇyeh´ is in the imperfect state (action that is not completed), first person singular, meaning "I shall become"; or, "I shall prove to be." The reference here is not to God's self-existence (as meant by I AM) but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Thus, the New World Translation accurately reads at Exodus 3:14: "I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE" and not inaccurately as "I AM THAT I AM". You are not up-to-date. Proverbs 21:5 says: "The plans of the diligent one surely make for advantage, but everyone that is hasty surely heads for want."

At Matthew 26:22 in the King James Bible, the Greek words of ego eimi is not rendered as "I am", but as "it is I" due to the context, whereas at John 4:26, it reads "I that speak to thee am [he]" adding the word "he" there as well at John 8:24 and 28, and John 18:5, 6, 8. Sentence structure or morphology, as well as tense, has to be considered when a word is translated into another language.

Thus, the five ancient manuscripts of the fifth/sixth centuries C.E. that were in either Syrian, Georgian or Ethiopic and that were translated from Koine Greek give sound evidence of what Jesus said and meant at John 8:58: "Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."(New World Translation)

"19 Or are you not aware that your body is a temple of the holy spirit in you, which you have from God, and you are not your own?"

Sounds like it is saying, "the Holy Spirit WHICH YOU HAVE FROM GOD".

The KJ also says this.

My understanding is, the Holy Spirit is a power that God uses which does come from him as everything comes from him doesn't it? I don't see it as being God himself but a power of God. Jesus is not God the Father but he said he came from God and of course he had to because everything came from God.

Jaareshiah,Again, your reply was as if you hadn't read what I wrote at all. I agreed with you that the King James is a poor translation.Then you compared "ego eimi" (I am) in the New Testament to "ego eimi ho on" from the greek septuagint which is obviously not the same.Then I quoted solely from the New World Translation and even told you that was which version it was.Regardless, we are off the subject and I know from past experience that no one "wins" in verbal ping pong so there's not much point in playing.I will tell you the good news that eventually, you and all other Jehovah Witnesses will be reconciled to Jehovah Jesus, and at the name of Jesus, all our knees will bow to the glory of God the Father, for salvation is from no other name (not even Jehovah)by which all are saved but in the name of Jesus.Your choice - to be free in Christ or be bound to an organization that tells you what to think and what "work" is expected of you to stay in good standing.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 06:08:22 PM by ded2daworld »

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

CHB,Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, and neither is the holy spirit. However all three are what is incorrectly called a trinity and properly called a triunity. In that all 3 are God in one person. I'm sure you're aware of several spots where Jesus is referred to as God and there are 2 points to consider about the holy spirit being God.1. Acts 5:3-5 "Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received from the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? and after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."2. Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture uses many terms that are used when speaking of a person and applies them to the Holy Spirit:

He helps (John 16:7).

He comforts (John 14:16).

He convicts of sin (John 16:17).

He gives testimony of Jesus (John 15:26).

He teaches and brings to remembrance (John 14:26).

He guides (John 16:13).

He restrains (2 Thess. 2:7).

He speaks and instructs (Acts 8:29; 10:19; John 16:13).

He interprets our prayers (Rom. 8:26).

He sets apart/sanctifies (2Thess. 2:13).

He hears (John 16:13).

He seals us (Eph. 1:13).

He knows and communicates (1 Cor. 2:11; Rom. 8:27).

He sends (Acts 13:4).

He brings forth life (John 3:6 compare Gen. 1:3).

He is a witness (Acts 5:32).

He reveals (Eph. 3:5).

He prevents/stops (Acts 16:6-7).

He wills/separates (Acts 13:2).

He has a will by which He decides, chooses and distributes (1 Cor. 12:11).

He can be lied to (Acts 5:3-4) (see above)

He can be tested (Acts 5:9).

He can be grieved (Eph. 4:30).

He leads (Matt. 4:1).

The Spirit "said" to Philip. (Acts 8:29).

The Spirit "said" to Peter. (Acts 10:19-20).

Peter said he was "told" by the Spirit (Acts 11:12).

The Holy Spirit "solemnly testifies" (Acts 20:23).

The Holy Spirit "made" some of the early Christians "overseers to shepherd the Church". (Acts 20:28).

The Holy Spirit "spoke" (Acts 28:25-27).

Acts 15:22 states that "it seemed good to the apostles and the elders." Nothing particularly striking about this as it is just stating that something was good to certain people, in this case the apostles and the elders. However, in verse 28 we see an interesting parallel: "...it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us..." (Acts 15:28). Obviousely, this is similar to the earlier verse. But what is significant with both of these parallel verses is that the writer of Acts includes the Spirit along with various people as though he is just listing another Person. The casual way that this is presented makes this even more striking. The Apostles, elders, and the Spirit recognise something as being "good". Now if the Spirit were not a Person, but rather an impersonal force, as the Watchtower claim, it would be like saying "it seemed good to the wind and to us." Obviously, such a statement would make no sense.And finally, the Holy Spirit was present in the form of a dove at the Baptism of Jesus while the Father spoke from above and Jesus commanded us to Baptize in the NAME OF 1.) The Father 2.)The Son and 3.) The Holy Spirit

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

I have to disagree with the idea that the Holy Spirit is a person or being. I believe the Holy Spirit is a power that God uses throughout the universe.

The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in any of the epistles when the apostles give an introduction. They always start out as saying "The apostle of Jesus Christ by the will, or by the commandment of God. (Gal. 1:1) says "but by Jesus Christ AND God the Father". They don't mention the Holy Spirit.

There are many things in the scriptures that are given ginders though they are not personalities at all. Some things are even given mouths to speak "if the foot shall say, and if the ear shall say" (1Cor. 12:15,16). In Psalms it says "Let the heavens rejoice and let the earth be glad. Let the field be joyful and all the trees rejoice. It says "the mountains and hills shall break forth singing".

What kind of personality could you give the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist said "I saw the Spirit decending from heaven like a dove and IT abode on him." In Genesis 1 it says "and the Spirit of God moved (Hebrew: was fluttering) upon the face of the waters" Here Christ describes the Holy Spirit, the wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hear the sound but cannot tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth."

(Acts 10:45) says the Spirit can be poured out on people. Christ said "he that believeth in meas the scriptures hath said, OUT OF HIS BELLY SHALL FLOW RIVERS OF LIVING WATERS. But this spake he of the Spirit.

James was a servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. James said nothing about the Holy Spirit. John said "And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son , Jesus Christ. John doesn't mention the Holy Spirit here.

You said Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Then wouldn't the Holy Spirit be the Father of Christ if it is a seperate being? I think here is the answer: ( Luke 1:35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST shall overshadow thee.

I read and re-read..that's what I understood. What'chu talkin' 'bout, tankster?

Yeah me too

The Head of Christ is GOD, not the Father. The term God applies to both the Father, Son and the Holy ghost. Since in this verse it cannot refer to the Son, then it must refer to Father and Holy Spirit.

we know that parents are Head over their children.

Genesis 1:27So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

CHB2 Cor 13:14-"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."Can you fellowship with a force? I didn't say they are different beings. One God, 3 persons (or personalities)Besides, omitting mentioning the Holy spirit in the introduction means little since on a couple of the letters The Father is omitted on either the beginning or the end.The personality of the Holy Spirit is one with the Father and the Son.The Son glorifies the Father and the Spirit glorifies the son.As for the last, the Holy Ghost IS the power of the Father.To me, if anythging can be lied to, grieved,give testimony of Jesus, convict of sin, teaches, reminds, guides, leads, restrains, instructs, sets apart, heals, instructs, knows, sends, brings forth life, has a will that he exerts, can be tested, grieved etc.There is a huge amount of information concerning aspects of the Holy Spirit's personality. There is scant information concerning Satan or the archangel Michael yet I don't know of anyone questioning whether these 2 are persons.Is it just that finite humans like me have trouble wrapping our heads around the one God having 3 seperate personalities?I think that it is just there never has been and never will be another being like God.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

You said Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Then wouldn't the Holy Spirit be the Father of Christ if it is a seperate being? I think here is the answer: ( Luke 1:35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST shall overshadow thee.

WHERE in the Bible is the Holy Spirit called or refered to as a "person"?

And I side note, the teaching of the trinity is a theologian theory and hypothesis. The trinity teaching is an unsound doctrine and only true if one finds believing in it, without scriptural verse, a satisfaction.Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Other than this one verse Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Is there another verse to show this formula in the Bible? I mean is there a verse to bear witness to it having weight?

[Of this] first taking note, that [no prophecy of scripture] becometh [self solving,]For not by [will of man] was prophecy brought in [at anytime]. But as [by the Holy Spirit] they were borne along> spake [men] from God. 2 Pet. 1:2021 (Rotherham)

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

"19 Or are you not aware that your body is a temple of the holy spirit in you, which you have from God, and you are not your own?"

Sounds like it is saying, "the Holy Spirit WHICH YOU HAVE FROM GOD".

The KJ also says this.

My understanding is, the Holy Spirit is a power that God uses which does come from him as everything comes from him doesn't it? I don't see it as being God himself but a power of God. Jesus is not God the Father but he said he came from God and of course he had to because everything came from God.

CHB

I like your speak, it is sound I have been given to understand the Holy Spirit as the very ENERGY of the Father God; it's how He gets things done.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Micah said - Other than this one verse Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Is there another verse to show this formula in the Bible? I mean is there a verse to bear witness to it having weight?How many verses does it take to establish a doctrine? How many when it is the direct word of Jesus?

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

CHB said - My understanding is, the Holy Spirit is a power that God uses which does come from him as everything comes from him doesn't it? I don't see it as being God himself but a power of God. Jesus is not God the Father but he said he came from God and of course he had to because everything came from God.

If I use my body to get things done and I get all my power from it, is it not me in essence?I still think it's trying to explain a being that has never been before God and never after. We try in our feeble attempts to understand the being of God by something we are familiar with.The closest thing I can come to is man is mind, body, and spirit. Christ the body, is subject to the mind(the Father) and of course the spirit coincides with spirit. I just think we were created in the image of God and God is just infinitely more so than what we are.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

I read and re-read..that's what I understood. What'chu talkin' 'bout, tankster?

Yeah me too

The Head of Christ is GOD, not the Father. The term God applies to both the Father, Son and the Holy ghost. Since in this verse it cannot refer to the Son, then it must refer to Father and Holy Spirit.

You are right in saying that the word God applies to the Son and the Father but it also applies to us, angels, and other gods as well. Paul said "there are many gods and many lords. As I understand it, the word God is a family name that applies to all of the family of God. (Eph. 3:15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.

Micah said, "WHERE in the Bible is Gabriel called or refered to as an Archangel????

Gabriel is not named directly as an archangel but, there were only three angels named in the bible. Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel. Michael is mentioned as an archangel and referred to as "ONE of the archangels" so we know there is more than one.Michael is mentioned 3 times in the Bible. Gabriel is mentioned 7 times and while not called an archangel directly does state, "I stand in the presence of God"The devil, lucifer, satan is never called an archangel but, as you know is mentioned more than 7 times and God said he was originally the best of the best created angel.Many people believe Gabriel to be an archangel because he is oft pictured as blowing a trumpet. In revelation, 7 angels blow 7 trumpets. However, Archangel only has the meaning of the "first of the angel kind" so we know that there is more than one but only Michael is actually named "archangel." Since there is more than one, it is assumed the other named angels were also archangels.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 12:15:33 AM by ded2daworld »

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"