ep. 86 - Dave Crenshaw

ep. 86 - Dave Crenshaw

Bio

The irony of Dave’s mission is that he considers himself very chaotic and inherently unfocused. In fact, he was once diagnosed by a clinical psychologist as “off the charts ADHD.” Dave took that diagnosis as a personal challenge and developed simple systems that fast-paced small business leaders worldwide now utilize to improve focus, structure, and stability.

Dave Crenshaw’s humorous and entertaining approach always hits the mark with audiences. His speeches are described as dynamic and life-changing. He also appears frequently in the news worldwide, including Time magazine, FastCompany, USA Today and the BBC News. However, Dave is most proud of being quoted by Chuck Norris in The Official Chuck Norris Fact Book.

His video courses on LinkedIn Learning, such as "Time Management Fundamentals" and "Improving Your Focus," have received millions of views. He has written three books and counting, including The Myth of Multitaskingwhich was published in six languages and is a time management bestseller. His fourth book, The Power of Having Fun, is due for release in September 2017.

Transcript

ep. 86 - Dave Crenshaw

Gail Davis: Dave Crenshaw is the master of building productive leaders. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, Fast Company, and the BBC News. His courses on Linkedin learning have received millions [00:01:00] of views. He's written three books and counting, including the myth of multi tasking, which was published in six languages and is a time management best seller. His fourth book, the power of having fun is due for release in September of this year. As an author, speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed hundreds of thousands of business leaders world wide. Welcome to today's episode of GDA podcast.

Kyle Davis: Always glad to have somebody on who's gonna tell us how to have more fun.

Gail Davis: How to have more fun, how to manage your time. The two biggest challenges.

Kyle Davis: For those listening, I'm running late today by a solid five minutes because multi tasking is 100% a myth.

Dave Crenshaw: That's right.

Gail Davis: That's [crosstalk 00:01:50]

Kyle Davis: So, I know that my mom just read this intro about you, but for those listeners who maybe don't have an idea of your background or anything else, [00:02:00] kind of give us your [inaudible 00:02:02] your story so to speak from how you go to where you were to where you are today.

Dave Crenshaw: Sure, well I began as a small business coach. I began working with entrepreneurs in particular. I think because I grew up around entrepreneurs but perhaps you've heard of serial entrepreneurs, right? They continually create businesses. I grew up around serial killer entrepreneurs. They continue, oh shoot.

Kyle Davis: [00:02:30] It happens, multi tasking.

Dave Crenshaw: There we go. Here's that back.

Kyle Davis: Don't worry about it.

Dave Crenshaw: Do you want me to go back and read that?

Kyle Davis: No keep going, you're good you're good.

Dave Crenshaw: Okay. So I grew up around serial killer entrepreneurs who continually started businesses and then they'd fail and so part of me was fascinated by that and wanted to help them succeed and so I first started by working with business owners before I'd even really graduated from college. So in working with them, I started to see a repeated issue of [00:03:00] time management. Of their inability to stay on top of what they were doing. On top of that personally I had massive issues with it. I was diagnosed as off the charts ADHD. In fact the words the psychologists used were freaking off the charts ADHD.

Kyle Davis: You and me both.

Dave Crenshaw: Yeah, so it was something that I first had to overcome and so my interest in productivity for leaders, first began with helping myself. And what I did was [00:03:30] I studied some of the greatest time management thinkers of all time, you know everybody from Covey, to David Allen, to Brian Tracy. And why I learned great principles, I saw a pattern. And the pattern was these were created by people who are inherently organized. And don't understand what it's like to be a crazy busy entrepreneur with your hair on fire who also happens to have ADHD.

So what I did was I took these great principles and adapted them for the most crazy [00:04:00] busy people in the world and first helped me and then began to help others. And that really opened up the doors to other things my interest in the myth of multitasking and my time management courses on places like Linkedin learning and Linda.

Kyle Davis: So what are, well let's back track. So I have talked about this a lot that I am a super off the charts diagnosed ADHD person. Now I am shaking my leg fervently and I'm waiting for [00:04:30] the coffee to help kick in to help my medicine go up through the roof. That being said, you know I found out later in life, so that meant I developed a lot of different coping mechanisms to help me manage time better and then afterwards, you learn stuff from other people who had the same condition. So I was curious as to like, as you grew up did you start to take in these coping mechanisms and those help [00:05:00] develop your principles? For time management or what?

Dave Crenshaw: Well it came much later, for me. In fact there were two words that changed my world when it came to this. The words were "I'm pregnant." At that time when I heard those words ...

Kyle Davis: And that was a very pregnant pause by the way.

Dave Crenshaw: Yeah, I was married for several years, my wife had been supporting me as I had been trying to be a rock star. I had a band and I realized that the pattern [00:05:30] of my career, my disorganization extended beyond just my office. It was jumping from a new career to a new career almost every year as it were. And that's when I went and sought out help and got the diagnosis and that's when I really began to lean back on my training of business systems to develop personal system for myself. So it came much later for me. Prior to that it was just part of the way I [00:06:00] was operating, very much like the serial killer entrepreneurs that I had grown up around.

Kyle Davis: Do you feel that maybe some of those serial killer entrepreneurs are individuals who kind of come from the same background or cut from the same cloth, but they just, because they lack the ability to manage their time properly they just burn through whatever capital they may have or time or energy?

Dave Crenshaw: Well the biggest problem for entrepreneurs in particular but now you know in our year, almost every one is [00:06:30] a lack of focus. I like to talk about how time management in the classic sense is dead. Our issue in our day is focus management. And most people have a very very hard time maintaining focus right now. And so that's the interesting thing about my background is what I experience personally has now become a world wide cultural issue. You know when I speak in places like Dubai or London or wherever [00:07:00] it is I'm speaking, they have the same problem. Everybody right now has a rectangle in their hands, in their pocket that can be used to summon any other individual around the world in an instant. These are not the issues that people were dealing with in the 80's and 90's and yet that's where most of our time management tools come from.

Kyle Davis: So I think segueing from the fact that focus management is really hard, especially in the fact that you [00:07:30] have a computer in your pocket, and like an Iphone or a Samsung or what not. I think going into the, on of your more popular books the myth of multitasking, I mean like I can I want to say that I'm an expert multi tasker but at the end of the day I just know I'm lying to myself. So how does that segue into focus management or maybe just totally the myth, debunk it I guess.

Dave Crenshaw: Well the research is clear. And the myth of multi tasking, my first book came out in 2008. [00:08:00] So we're coming up on the 10 year anniversary of that book. And when it came out and just since then, more and more research has come out that substantiates the fact, our brain is not able to handle multiple active tasks at the same time. What we do, when we think we're doing multiple things at the same time, like let's say I'm in a conference call, or listening to this pod cast, and I'm answering e-mail at the same time. What I'm really doing is switch tasking. [00:08:30] My brain is switching rapidly back and forth between these different things. And every time you switch you incur a little something that economics describes as switching cost. Meaning, I move from one thing to something else but the cost is greater than just the transition. I have to pay extra attention. Like if I'm typing an e-mail and someone comes in, knocks on my door, and says hey I've got just a quick question. I call that the dreaded double [00:09:00] Q. They say just a quick question.

Well I have to stop, answer their question, whatever it is, and then go back to the e-mail that I was on, re read the e-mail, figure out where I was, or if you're really having a hard time with focus you completely forget you had that e-mail on the screen, pick up a piece of paper on your desk and two hours later that unfinished e-mail is still on your screen. These are all the costs associated with multi tasking. And the more [00:09:30] we can reduce the switches in our day, the more productive and effective we'll be.

Kyle Davis: What are dome productivity tips that you would help to limit those switches?

Dave Crenshaw: Well when I give my presentation I talk about switch busters, which are a variety of things that you can do to reduce switches in your day. We can't completely get rid of switches, that's not practical, but we can dramatically reclaim time through them. So just [00:10:00] as one or two examples, the first would be have a schedule on which you check e-mail. Too many people have their e-mail open constantly where it's set to a state of send and receive particularly on their phone. And their phone notifies them whenever an e-mail comes in. Every time it pops up, even if it's a silent notification, even if it's just a vibrate, it switches your attention away from whatever you were doing, you lose [00:10:30] focus, you lose time, and then you have to switch back. So we can reclaim a lot of time by just having a schedule. Rather than checking it constantly, how about checking it once every two hours. Or twice a day. Something like that that's reasonable for whatever job you're in and in that way rather than e-mail checking you, you check e-mail.

Kyle Davis: I mean I don't want to make this like the Kyle show [00:11:00] but I do know that when I was in, when I was living in San Francisco my background in sales before I went into software sales was someone calls you, call back immediately, respond to an e-mail, text, you're constantly replying and by doing that I was just managing the opportunities I had and never had the opportunity to create new opportunities for myself. It wasn't until I had one of my, one of the sales managers there explained to me that I really should have a scheduled time for it. These are the hours [00:11:30] that I check e-mails, these are the hours that I schedule calls, this is the hours that I do prospecting, and maybe I have another hour or so at the end of the day to follow up with e-mails because some e-mails just aren't that important.

Dave Crenshaw: Right. Yeah, so that's a great first step. There are a lot of different things. What you want to do is look at the different types of switches in your day. I mentioned the quick questions, right? So another thing that you can do to minimize those and the impact from those is to have a meeting time that is recurring, [00:12:00] that's scheduled with the people where you are both asking each other these double cues most often. For instance I have a full time assistant. And we meet on a regular basis at a specific time where we cue up all these questions and ask them of each other. Now if there's something urgent in between that that's truly an emergency then of course we're gonna deal with it at that time. But in my experience in working with business leaders, coaching them in their place, speaking [00:12:30] to them, the vast majority are not emergencies. They're interuptcies. They're just things that I feel I need to do, or impatiencies. Right? And so I'm gonna interrupt you regardless but if you have that win, if you have that time that you know you can count on, that will dramatically increase productivity in the work place.

Kyle Davis: Yeah, one of the best things I did as a sales manager and a director of sales for another company was implementing office hours. Like if you have to ask me a question and you don't think [00:13:00] it's like, an emergency, that was a general parameter around it, ask during office hours. And I had to shorten the office hours duration because people would just limit the amount of questions they'd ask to just stuff that's more appropriate I guess or they figured out the solution before they came to ask that quick question.

Dave Crenshaw: Yep, that's a great example of another switch buster.

Gail Davis: All righty, I say we take a right turn in the conversation and we talk about the new book that is coming out, [00:13:30] the power of having fun. Seems like an obvious question, but why should we have more fun, Dave?

Dave Crenshaw: Well, you know the power of having fun, I see as the brighter happier cousin to the myth of multitasking. And so what I mean by that is, the myth of multi tasking is about what you should not do in order to be more productive. The power of having fun is what you should do in order to be more productive. And one thing that we [00:14:00] all must do more of, is implement more fun into our day. But do it in a strategic, planned way. When you schedule these meaningful breaks, and I call them oasis. If you think of what an oasis is in the midst of a desert, it's a place of refreshment and renewal. And if you schedule these oasis into every single day and sometimes multiple times a day or every week, they have a dramatic effect in helping you be [00:14:30] more productive. That is the big message behind the power of having fun, is that fun helps you get more done.

Gail Davis: And I know there are people out there listening, they go oh dear here we go again. One of these lets have fun in the workplace and they have a mind set that you know, having fun in the workplace equates to goofing off or not taking work seriously. But I think you might have some research that counters that.

Dave Crenshaw: Yeah. The first thing that [00:15:00] I would say is, this is a book not about fun. I want to make that distinction, it's a book about having fun. And what's the difference, well we're not talking about implementing humor or making your work place culture more happy or friendly or anything like that. I mean there's certain value in that, that's just not my focus. My focus is on productivity. And what I'm talking about is the action of fun, of taking that break is what helps you get more done in your day. [00:15:30] And I'm not talking about necessarily interweaving it constantly throughout your work. What I'm saying is we want to have a designated spot away from work where we take that break. I'll give you one example. Keva.org if you're familiar with that, I've been a big support of them for a long time. They provide micro loans to people all around the world. And they're one of the greatest places to work continually rated near the top. One thing that they do [00:16:00] is they have adult recess, which is a scheduled time in the middle of the day where they allow people to choose for themselves, and that's one big part of my message, is the self choice, self directed activities.

And they take a break from work and they just do something fun and relaxing, of their own choosing, and then return to work. And when you do that performance dramatically increases.

Kyle Davis: [00:16:30] Yeah one of the things that we at one of the companies we worked at in San Francisco was designated times, it was mandatory lunch but you didn't have to eat lunch in the cafeteria that we had, you could go eat at a number of our different merchants that used our product as well throughout San Francisco or there was every Friday we'd have these clean streets things where you could go out and help clean up a street in San Francisco but it was something external that we could do to get outside the office and it was really an opportunity for me and a co worker who don't necessarily [00:17:00] get an opportunity to communicate too often to really bond and have more fun rather than always go into like play ping pong or something else like that.

Gail Davis: I was gonna ... yeah I was gonna bring up if you know our listeners out there and they're like okay I'm the CO of a company, I buy into this, there could be some real value for having a culture that had a little more time allocated for fun. What are some ideas on how you can make that shift in your culture?

Dave Crenshaw: Well the first, [00:17:30] most important thing to do is to set a good example. That you do it personally. Because one thing I've seen over and over in my leadership coaching is that the business is the reflection of it's leadership. In other words, if you have a hard time with your life balance, if you're not doing these things, if you are working late hours, your employees learn from you more than [00:18:00] anyone else. We often think that education for a job comes from college or from some technical school, but the majority of the training and the work place comes by example from leadership. And so I encourage leaders, when they hear this for the first time to first start by experimenting on themself. Before you start jumping in and implementing this in the business, schedule [00:18:30] a daily oasis for yourself. And an oasis is a short period of time where you do something fun and relaxing for you. This can be anything from, I've got one manager I work with who shadow boxed, another business owner she would go for a walk. Someone who rode their motorcycles personally, I like to play video games for 30 minutes.

Schedule that in your day and experiment and test, see how it changes your attitude [00:19:00] about your job and how it changes your performance at work for the next two or three weeks.

Gail Davis: Is an oasis, is it an attempt to have work, life balance if you will?

Dave Crenshaw: That's an interesting question. I talk, work life balance is a valuable thing but I'm more interested in the oasis balance itself. And what I mean by that is there are three distinct types of oasis. There's your personal oasis for you, there's [00:19:30] your family oasis, and by family I mean the broadest possible definition, the people who love you and care about you. You need to have something for them to support them for their support of you. And then there's the work oasis that occurs within the work day. And so what I'm encouraging people to do is have the oasis balance. All too often leaders emphasize one over the other. For instance one thing that I see a lot with female executives is they put all of their emphasis on the family oasis. Right? [00:20:00] I'm gonna take time to be there with my children, I'm going to take time to be there with my spouse, but then they don't do anything for themself. And you need to have all of that working together because each aspect, each oasis has value. The personal oasis builds you up, the family oasis builds you and your family members up, and the work oasis creates repeated breaks throughout the day to get more done.

Kyle Davis: When you're like ... so I find that [00:20:30] when I take a lot of breaks, I used to do something called the pomodoro method where I'd do something for 20 minutes, take a five minute break, then go on and do something else for 20 minutes and so on and so forth. What I found kind of the benefit of coming from those breaks was that I was able to change kind of my mindset and be more productive in 30 minutes versus trying to grind something out in an hour without having a break. Just jumping from one task to another. Is there some benefit that you're starting to see, not just [00:21:00] in increased productivity per se on out put but decreasing the amount of time spent on certain things as well?

Dave Crenshaw: You know it's interesting you bring that up, the research that I found, and my field experience would push the time period longer. In fact if you look at the work by Nathaniel Kleitman, he's a noted sleep researcher. He's the one that really we credit for the circadian rhythm, I think most people have heard about the circadian rhythm right?

Kyle Davis: I would hope.

Dave Crenshaw: How much time you should sleep versus [00:21:30] how much time you should work or be awake. Well he also discovered the ultradian rhythm, and the ultradian rhythm are smaller cycles within your day or within your sleep period. The optimal ultradian rhythm, the amount of time someone can focus on work until they need a break is somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 minutes to 120 minutes. And each person has a unique need with that. So mine might be 90, yours might be 100. So what you [00:22:00] want to do is experiment a little bit and figure out what is your ideal ultradian rhythm and then at the end of that you take a break for about 10 to 20 minutes and that allows you to reboot the system so to speak and go back to the previous level of productivity. But what so many people do, is they just keep pushing past that point of exhaustion, of energy depletion, of focus depletion, and every minute you go beyond that [00:22:30] optimal work cycle for you, you get diminishing returns.

So it's so important for managers and leaders to be aware of the people that they work with and when they see them hit that point in saying look, what we're doing is important, I want you to work hard, but you're gonna work better if you step away from it. So find something else to do and step away from it for 10, 15 minutes and then come back, and give them permission to do that.

Kyle Davis: Do you find, [00:23:00] should managers probably also implement this in duration of meetings? You know instead of having, maybe some people have a 60 minute threshold versus, everybody else having a 90 minute threshold and so capping that meeting at a certain time so that it's more productive and everybody stays focused.

Dave Crenshaw: Yeah, I mean this is just something that I've seen with everything that I've done with time management. In general, meetings are just too long. And time abhors a vacuum. What that means is if you [00:23:30] give a meeting a permission to last a certain amount of time, say I'm going to let that meeting last 90 minutes, and I schedule it that way, guess what. It's going to last 90 minutes. Where as if you schedule the meeting, I personally wouldn't go longer than 50 minutes to allow a ten minute transition period. If you schedule a meeting to go 50 minutes everyone is going to be more focused, more precise in what they say and people are going to feel that there's more value because we're [00:24:00] packing more value into a shorter period of time.

Kyle Davis: Yeah one of the little hacks I have is, so I use G Calendar right, google calendar. And it has a meeting productivity option.

Dave Crenshaw: Yes.

Kyle Davis: And so ...

Dave Crenshaw: Speedy meetings.

Kyle Davis: Speedy meetings, yes. So I automatically have that set so 30 minute meeting, it's automatically sent as a 25 and people are like, why a 25 minute meeting? Or why a 50 minute meeting instead of an hour? Well, let's be concise and let's get this done, I don't want jibber jabber I want you to actually focus before you go into it and let's have that ten minute break s owe can go in and crush it the next [00:24:30] hour.

Dave Crenshaw: Agreed.

Gail Davis: I was thinking earlier when you talked about the benefit of taking the break and coming back to it, I love and I never know how to pronounce the word, is it sodoku puzzles? Is that how you pronounce that Kyle?

Kyle Davis: Sure yeah Sodoku.

Gail Davis: I love those. And of course in our newspaper Monday they're easier and they get progressively harder during the week. But it always strikes me when it, let's say Thursday roll around and I'm stuck. And I have my little series of steps that I go through and I'm like, okay I'm stuck, so I [00:25:00] push it aside, go do something else, maybe come to work, maybe I'm only gone 15 minutes but you come back to it, and you're like oh, and it's like the easiest thing you've ever done in your life, so that's to me a metaphor that supports what you're saying as sometimes you just have to walk away from it.

Dave Crenshaw: Right, right. And let me give a little, we've talked sort of in generalities but I want to go some specific research behind this that's really interesting. There was a study by the university of Washington where they took mice [00:25:30] and they had them perform a task specifically escaping from water. And one group of mice, they deprived of dopamine. Dopamine is the naturally occurring motivating chemical inside of our bodies. When we do something fun and relaxing like a sodoku puzzle, you get a little injection of dopamine into your system. So they had these mice without dopamine in the ones with dopamine. And they had them repeat the task over and over [00:26:00] and over again. The ones who were deprived of dopamine, the more they persisted in the task, the longer their times got. It wasn't that they started learning more and more and more, their motivation started to decline over time and no matter how many times they repeated it, they got worse. But the ones who experience dopamine on a consistent basis shortened their times the more [00:26:30] they did it.

And we're not mice in a maze, yet a lot of us treat ourselves as if we were. We continually push ourselves and deprive ourselves of these moments of fun that aren't just, they're not something that you get for good behavior, they're something that you must have in your day in order to be more successful and more productive.

Kyle Davis: So [00:27:00] one of the, we have this pre form kind of questionnaire that we send to guests of the podcast and one of them is talking about how you may have a culture of win versus a culture of wish, and I'm just wondering what's the comparison and what should we be doing?

Dave Crenshaw: Sure, well I don't use too many acronyms in my book. I'm not Gary Busey after all, but I do have two that I use. And the first is the culture of wish. The culture of wish is what most people in the world are [00:27:30] addicted to right now. It's the prevailing culture of the work place, and the culture of wish stands for worth it someday hopefully. In other words I'm gonna push, I'm gonna keep working on this career, I'm gonna someday hopefully I'll reach retirement and then everything will be okay. Someday hopefully if I'm an entrepreneur I'll sell my business and then everything will be great, right? But the problem with the culture of wish is that it continually deprives us of the very [00:28:00] thing that will help us be successful. So what I'm encouraging people to do in the power of having fun is to transition to the culture of when. And the culture of when is that we make every day worth it now. What you do with work should be worth it every single day. Not just at the end, not even just once a year when you go to go take a vacation with your family. Every day you must have something that you can look to to [00:28:30] say, I'm getting a great reward for the work that I do.

And when you do that, when you schedule that, make it a top priority. You schedule the fun first, you perform better. You have more success.

Kyle Davis: Well, I mean I think everybody should win and not wish.

Gail Davis: Yep.

Dave Crenshaw: Yeah.

Kyle Davis: I mean I'm a big fan of the motto don't talk about it, be about it. So go win everybody. [00:29:00] So my curiosity, when you give a speech to an audience, what are you hoping that they leave in their mind? How do you want them leaving or having felt after they hear you speak?

Dave Crenshaw: There are two things that I'm really going for. The first is I want them to feel that they had an experience. That they didn't listen to someone lecture to [00:29:30] them or expound great thoughts. I want them to feel like they went on a journey and so a big part of what I do is helping people experience and become a part of, I'm looking for a lot of experiential learning and teaching as I go. So I'm in many cases much more hands on than say a traditional motivational speaker. The second thing is I am looking for the one action [00:30:00] at the end of every presentation. And I encourage people when I speak. When I start I say please don't take notes, take action. And what I mean by that is you can write down all the amazing wonderful things that the speaker says to you but what's more important are the amazing wonderful things that you say to you. There are going to be moments in my presentations where all of a sudden the light bulb goes on over someone's head and they go, I need to do that.

I want them to write that [00:30:30] down immediately and then at the end, I want them to make a commitment to it, put it in their schedule, even announce it to other people in the audience so that it solidifies their commitment. Because if I can get everyone in the audience to take one action and if I speak to 200 people, there might be 200 different actions in the audience, great. If I can get everyone to take on action on what they heard, then that means that it starts to become a part of them. It tattoos [00:31:00] that experience into their life permanently.

Kyle Davis: And I guess the one final question since you brought up research, talking about rats and dopamine and everything else, one of the things that I appreciate from speakers like yourself, is that the content is always fresh and there's always new research. And I'm just curious, I know the new book is coming out in a few months, can you just briefly talk about the research that you did to help make that possible and also the research that goes into giving a key note and what not?

Dave Crenshaw: [00:31:30] My approach with everything that I teach is about field experience first. I never talk about something that is theoretical and I do a lot of coaching on the side to, I sort of it's my muse, it feeds what I create. So the first thing is the research is just hands on, working with executives, working with leaders, and implementing changes and seeing what happens, what works. Then from that I say, [00:32:00] all right, that's what I experienced. Someone who's more patient than I am must have done some great research on it and then I go and find that research and sure enough there it is. It substantiates what it is that I'm experiencing first hand. So there's sort of a, my approach is sort of an intermingling of real life experiences, case studies, plus the hard research that more patient science minded people are doing.

Kyle Davis: [00:32:30] Yeah I think that's a good thing, because what it does is it helps someone like yourself have very fresh and new content, so that way it's not the same Joe Blow speaker off the block who's been talking about the same thing for the last ten years, but it's new and constantly evolving and I think that's something very fresh.

Dave Crenshaw: Yeah. And I never ever give the exact same presentation to an audience. Every time I do it, I create a new slide deck. Now that doesn't mean it's from scratch, there's always an evolution based on the audience [00:33:00] that I'm speaking to. And then that way they're always feeling like okay this isn't just a rehearsed presentation but more that this is a dialog that we're having and how to make it best implemented in our unique situation.

Kyle Davis: Well I think that is a good place for us to wrap up, so if you would like to have a dialog with Dave Crenshaw, you can do so by contacting GDA speakers, the phone number's 214-420-1999 or you can go to GDAspeakers.com for the transcript [00:33:30] and access to the books, I believe maybe your book might as well, is it also available now for pre order as well?

Dave Crenshaw: Yes, it's available for pre order, it comes out September.

Kyle Davis: In September, so we'll put a link in the, on the GDApodcast.com website for the transcript and also the link to pre order the book or if it's past September you can buy the book. So there you go. With that being said, thanks Dave.

Dave Crenshaw: Thank you very much for the opportunity, appreciated it.

Gail Davis: Thank you Dave, it was fun.

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