In this exclusive interview with the Buddhist Channel, Ajahn Sumedho – the foremost western disciple of the late Ajahn Chah – talks about how gratitude and respect for tradition have preserved and sustained his training as a monk. And in the process, he explains how these values have preserved the Thai forest tradition, the Buddha’s pristine Dhamma and its spread throughout the world. The Buddhist word in Pali for gratitude is Kataññuta. Understanding it deeply means not just repaying debt but to give with joy, not thinking of “I”, myself. And it is on this basis that I have been operating ever since." - Ajahn Sumedho >>It was then after the 6th Vassa, that I decided to leave Wat Pah Pong and go to India and see if I could live there. I always had strong interests in Asia and had completed my BA in Chinese studies and MA in South Asian studies so India was a natural choice, not just because it was the birth place of Buddhism.It was during the separation of East Pakistan (later to be known as Bangladesh) from West Pakistan when I arrived in Calcutta. There were a lot of refugees streaming into the city. And beggars were everywhere. Then a thought occurred to me: I was just one of them. An alms seeking monk was no different than a beggar on the street.

But even in the land of the Buddha’s birth, there was not much opportunity for the locals to support a monk, what more a monk from the forest tradition. For proper support, I had to travel from Calcutta to Bodh Gaya, and devotees of the Mahabodhi temple there arranged for pindapata (alms giving), the first time since I arrived India.After five or six months in India, I had this sudden realization recalling all that was given to me by Luang Poh Chah, the Thai people and the Thai immigration (who gave me a permanent Visa). There was this overwhelming sense of gratitude for all the requisites, encouragement and respect given to me by the people of Thailand. It was a realization that who – and all - that I had become then was a result of the generosity and kindness of others. So in a way, this was not just any realization, but an opening of the heart, of giving up self-centeredness.

This was a breakthrough somewhat because even when I was in samatha (concentrated state) where there was tranquility, it was not truly liberating. It was because there was still this continued thinking of “I”, “myself”, this self-centeredness despite the many vassas spent as a full time meditating monk. The Buddhist word in Pali for gratitude is Kataññuta. Understanding it deeply means not just repaying debt but to give with joy, not thinking of “I”, myself. And it is on this basis that I have been operating ever since.

I then decided to go back to Thailand to help Luang Poh Chah and to fulfill his wish to help the western monks. This was when Wat Pah Nanachat was founded, a monastery set up primarily to assist the training of Western monks.Today there are more than 300 forest tradition monasteries all over the world. All these development were made possible with support from Luang Poh Chah, who was first invited to go to England in 1977 to meet with the English Sangha Trust. The Thai Sangha, Mahatherasamakom was also incredibly generous and helpful in the establishment of these monasteries. Such generosity gave rise to strong, unifying bonds of gratitude and respect among Luang Poh Chah’s disciples that laid the foundation of the forest tradition of the Western Sangha to be what it is today.

The practice of the forest tradition is about attaining personal release (from samsara). If there is a conflict between personal practice and social conventions, such as Bhikkuni Ordination, what would Luang Poh's advise be?

In the Thai Forest Tradition, there are many views with regards to Bhikkuni Ordination. Not everyone is in agreement with one another. Speaking of myself coming from a western society, it can be said that most western Buddhists do not really understand (Thai Sangha) tradition. Many have asked what could possibly be wrong with helping women to become nuns.But this is the very gist of the dichotomy between tradition and social conventions. Western views hold on to notions of individual rights, gender equality and social justice. But in the Sangha tradition, it’s about giving up rights, of performing specified duties as stated in the Vinaya. This is not something that is new, as the Vinaya has withstood 2,552 years of facing change and challenges, be it politics, economics and social conditions.

The Buddha left us just two legacies, Dhamma and Vinaya. The Dhamma is about letting go, about personal liberation. The Vinaya is about rules and how we relate to the world as renunciates. Many westerners see the Vinaya as restrictive, and have always tried to make changes to the Vinaya so that it meets modern challenges. And yet, duties (as to how the Sangha relate to the world) are not always given due mention.The initial Sangha structure that we inherited from the Buddha is based on the Bhikkhu Sangha. But based on western views, this is patriarchal structure. A patriarchal structure is deemed as hierarchical, which is bad, as it goes against the norm of social equality, which is good. As we allay ourselves to these ideals, we continue to struggle with the world. This is not what the Vinaya is all about, which is about giving up rights and performing duties as members of the Sangha.To say that all is equal is not true, as this is not the way all things are. Conditions are all about differences. The structure of language, thinking, social norms are dualistic conditions. Dualistic conditions are more about less equality and more about more inequality.In our practice, we train the mind to go beyond dualistic thinking. As we are not culturally conditioned to do this, we have to go for training, in deep practice, to transform our consciousness so that we become mindful before we think and act and before we become emotional.This is the path to liberation. It’s not about making anything becoming equal. This teaching is not restricted to any views, and is available to all.

Unfortunately, conventional structures – between what is traditional and what is modern - is what people argue over all the time. We are constantly facing pressure to change tradition so that it falls in line with modern society.

So in this sense, I can’t really see myself how I could go about engaging in Bhikkhuni Ordination. It is beyond my ability even if I wanted to. I just can’t. It’s like me being a violin player and being asked to teach another to play the piano. I just would not be able to do it. So the best that we could do is perhaps play our own instruments in our own way and perform in harmony together. The best I could do was to form the Siladhara order *, where women renunciates also live depending on alms and obtain the same teachings made available to all.

This brings us back to the matter of Bhikkhuni Ordination. The attitude in Thailand is that women can become Bhikkhunis, but if they wanted to do so they will have to do it in the Mahayana tradition. In light of the issue of the Perth incident, and the Thai Sangha's opposition to Bhikkuni Ordination, what advice can Luang Poh give to lay people so that the situation is not further aggravated?We need to watch and reflect on our thoughts, speech and action. We need to be aware and mindful, not to create divisions, like choosing sides. These are dualistic actions, and are based on ignorance.Part of our process of learning and understanding is to open up and to listen. These are important, so that we may not go on and create even more dualistic views.----------* Note: While still officially novices in the eyes of the Thai Sangha heirarchy, and thus not as controversial as Bhikkhuni Ordination, this form of discipline included a training and discipline in more than 100 precepts, and became known as the Siladhara ordination, and the community of nuns in England following this discipline, the Siladhara Sangha.Ajahn Sumedho was in Malaysia for two weeks in January and participated in the “Ajahn Chah Remembrance Day” event on January 16, 2010.http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 75,0,0,1,0

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

With all due respect to a great monk, Ajahn Sumedho seems to be confusing gratitude with unquestioning submission, and confusing Thai cultural norms (as interpreted by one small group) with the Vinaya. It seems very clear from his statements that part of his spiritual path meant he had to give up his attachment to Western cultural values, but he seems to have done this by replacing them with Thai Sangha ones - taking on all of them without discrimination. In his words he can only play one instrument - is this not simply subsituting one attachment for another?

If Ajahn Chah had taken that viewpoint would he have ever left the establish monastic practices and become a forest monk?

Ajahn Sumedho has done great things, building on Ajahn Chah's work and helping establish forest monasteries in the Western world. But should my immense gratitude to him (and fellow students of Ajahn Chah including Ajahn Brahm) mean I accept all he says without using my own discrimination? The Buddha of the Pali canon did not seem to think so.

wtp wrote:With all due respect to a great monk, Ajahn Sumedho seems to be confusing gratitude with unquestioning submission, and confusing Thai cultural norms (as interpreted by one small group) with the Vinaya. It seems very clear from his statements that part of his spiritual path meant he had to give up his attachment to Western cultural values, but he seems to have done this by replacing them with Thai Sangha ones - taking on all of them without discrimination. In his words he can only play one instrument - is this not simply subsituting one attachment for another?

Are you sure?

If Ajahn Chah had taken that viewpoint would he have ever left the establish monastic practices and become a forest monk?

Forest monks have a long history in Thailand! it isn't simply a new tradition which sprang from one or two people within the last century or so, but by the very nature of the monks little is known about them if anything at all.

Ajahn Sumedho has done great things, building on Ajahn Chah's work and helping establish forest monasteries in the Western world. But should my immense gratitude to him (and fellow students of Ajahn Chah including Ajahn Brahm) mean I accept all he says without using my own discrimination? The Buddha of the Pali canon did not seem to think so.

Has Sumedho ever suggested people should?

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."