I enjoy reading your posts, Duskwolf. In fact, you are one of the chief posters that prompts me to visit this forum. I do not always agree with you though.

What you just showed from Free Realm to me reminds me of EQ raids. I should say being a member of a raiding guild in EQ, but not being the raid strategy officer. I was an officer and had fun planning raid strat. But hated being in a large raid following prompts of the raid leader. All the clicking, key punching can keep a player very busy with hand/eye coordination. But it makes me feel like I am working somewhere punching keys. I love GW2 PvE in the sense I can roam around and go through minimal key punching to immerse myself in imagination. It's like sipping coffee and contemplating a chessboard or something... maybe less brain taxing than chess. But I enjoy creativity that the GW2 PvE world prompts me to participate in with my imagination.

From my end, yes I bought GW2 after the manifesto led me to believe there will be no numbers grind in this revolutionary game. Yes I was disappointed when less than 3 months after the launch we got our first gear upgrade. What it taught me was to never trust a developer again. This "grind" thing is not going to impact me at all. I'm happy playing PvE using my own imagination with the beautiful PvE world in GW2, which must have cost the devs a healthy bundle of funds.

My concern is more for ANet. Being I no longer plan to spend $ in the gem store to support gear grind, I wonder how ANet will fare if a lot of players are like me. But if a lot are like the "gear-centric" players ANet is trying to court now.. it's no problem for me. I'll be fine, and ANet will be fine.

I know you feel differently and I do hope the game can improve in the direction you want without alienating players who don't wish for "active play".

We got these type of players.^

Ghostwing, on 10 December 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

I think the problem is that some of the more interesting bosses have been toned down too much. The final boss in CoF P1, for example, has this group knockdown fire attack that is preceded by a specific animation of him striking the ground. I'd watch for that attack, and dodge, because in my mind I want to do the most DPS and kill it as fast as I can. But a lot of people don't bother because that boss can't kill you if you have half a brain. That boss should do more damage (or something) than he does, and that knockdown attack with the telegraph should be necessary to dodge, and that'll need reflexes. Hand-eye coordination, eh, yeah, not so much--but that applies to every other auto-targeting skillbar based game I can think of.

I remember in beta there were plenty of event bosses where you had to read telegraphs and dodge attacks. The ice griffin mini-boss in the Norn starter zone has been nerfed to a point where you don't have to. A few months ago the giants had the similar, deadly attacks that had telegraphs other than a red circle, but I am not sure if that's still the case.

And we got these type of players.^

We could get some nice balance or it can skew either way. Really depends though. I could think of some, for example Tar in CS could be the easy mode solo event while Plinx could be some kinda hard event. Either way the Anet dropped the ball hard. They nerfed they entire game to be a boring grind fest. I can't even log in now, well, I did log in but couldn't last 20 mins soloing without a guildie on vent.

In any case, forums can't be representative for what people think of the game. Most people that quit don't post, so I'd say it already has a tendency to be overly positive. And well, let's be honest: GW2 needs a lot of improvement before it can be considered to be something more than a just a beautiful game.

Try the WAR forums, where players generally advise you not to buy/play their game!

Oweio, on 10 December 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

This game has some realy bad social aspects, and for an mmo thats fatal.

Yea it could definitely use some RP and social features. Guild Halls and Alliances ftw!

This is exactly the problem, people see a few bad posts and think it is what the entire community is about. It happens with every single MMO including WoW. People see a few people they don't agree with and say "omg this community is filled with jerks!"

The reality is that a community is not just what you see in forums or what you think you see in game, it's a lot more than that. Community is about those you pay attention to as well as those you don't even notice, but nobody seems to look at it that way. Besides in most MMOs you can't even talk for the entire player base b/c their are communities within communities that you don't know exist. I learned early on when first starting MMOs that their are too many people to only harp on the ones you just don't like.

I think almost any game is going to get "boring" if you play it enough. Sooner or later you'll see through The Matrix and the code beneath and all will become clear.

You'll realize every encounter is just tank-and-spank in the open world, for instance. That you're hitting 1, 3, 2, 3 every fight, or whatever.

The ancient ogre terrorizing the people is just a larger model of the baby ogre you killed at level 3, and they both use exactly the same mechanics and even attacks .. the bigger one just puts out bigger numbers.

I don't find PvE in GW2 challenging. Never did, probably never will. It feels like 'easy' and repetitive without feeling rewarding. This changes in Orr ... which the constant immobilizes, knockdowns & pulls add "frustrating" and "infuriating" to the mix of previous adjectives.

Dungeon boss fights (some of them) are more interesting because they have gimmicks. Do those a few times and you see through them though.

ToySoldier, on 10 December 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

My concern is more for ANet. Being I no longer plan to spend $ in the gem store to support gear grind, I wonder how ANet will fare if a lot of players are like me. But if a lot are like the "gear-centric" players ANet is trying to court now.. it's no problem for me. I'll be fine, and ANet will be fine.

Sadly, as I'm sure you know, they won't care. Behind every person saying "I don't like this" or "I won't pay more because I wish this was better" are ten people foaming at the mouth shouting "TAKE MAH MONEY!"

Here's a truth based upon what I've been saying: The training dummy minigame of Free Realms requires more accuracy and smarter player inputs than anything in GW2 does. I can't imagine the average GW2 player doing any better than this guy, because GW2 does absolutely nothing at all to even begin to test hand-eye coordination. And that's sad.

I just had to use this to illustrate things a bit. I've been using Mass Effect 3, but maybe that's just going over too many heads. It's nice to have something that can challenge you tactically, that requires forethought, and then requires fast reaction times to execute. Rather than standing there and pushing butan for pellet.

All I want is a challenge that isn't tremendously worse than even the most casual games I've played. And no, time investment is not a challenge.

Why is that too much to ask?

I don't think that what you're asking for is excessive but I'd like to make a counterpoint based upon my own experience.

For starters, I really don't appreciate being characterized as a rat pushing a button to get a food pellet. I don't give a toss about the "rewards." I organized my guild around crafting so that, for the most part, equipment would be a non-issue. We're all here for the gameplay. And I'll admit that sometimes the gameplay is overly simple. Some content isn't challenging enough and some character builds play as well on autopilot as they do when played thoughtfully. I'd like you to consider two things, however:

1. It is possible to design a build that is noticeably better when played thoughtfully than when played on autopilot. This is the hallmark characteristic of builds that I like. I don't even know for sure how well those builds stack up to "autopilot" builds and I don't care. I create my own challenge by designing my character builds to reward engaged play.

2. Possibly related to #1, I am not very good at this game. I don't suck. My guildies and I get by. The fact is, though, most of us are 30-somethings with careers, marriages, children, etc. We don't have a glut of free time so what other people are calling boring or easy is still a challenge to us. (Cases in point: we were recently stopped cold on our first attempts at both Sorrow's Embrace story mode and the Underground Facility/FotM end boss.) If you've overcome all of the challenges in the game, I salute you, but please don't insinuate that my guild is a bunch of button-pushing rodents.

1. It is possible to design a build that is noticeably better when played thoughtfully than when played on autopilot. This is the hallmark characteristic of builds that I like. I don't even know for sure how well those builds stack up to "autopilot" builds and I don't care. I create my own challenge by designing my character builds to reward engaged play.

I think you're talking about GW2 builds, but this is exactly why I play an Acrobatics thief. One of the challenges I like is pulling a few things and then killing them without getting downed or even hit by managing endurance and my evade ability.

I was in the centaur camps in Gendarren Fields and danced into a herd of centaurs. An elementalist stopped to watch me and after I was done was like 'dude how do u do that.'

Granted, it's not as difficult as dancing through Orr or even a dungeon, but its fun when I have to pay attention rather than just kill things.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

We could get some nice balance or it can skew either way. Really depends though. I could think of some, for example Tar in CS could be the easy mode solo event while Plinx could be some kinda hard event. Either way the Anet dropped the ball hard. They nerfed they entire game to be a boring grind fest. I can't even log in now, well, I did log in but couldn't last 20 mins soloing without a guildie on vent.

True dude. Or dungeons can be done like the skirmishes in LOTRO, with players able to choose difficulty level. Higher difficulty = more reward. Lowest difficulty = solo = lower but still decent reward. LoTRO has that balanced quite well.

Btw you're one of the posters I enjoy reading too. And so is Gilles VI, with whom you just had a bit disagreement with. I've noticed many posters have different opinions despite that they're all good people. Haha! This is the beauty of an mmorpg. Playing a game like ME3 I would never really get to know some of the players. It's probably why despite that I love the dynamic events where I get to meet many anonymous heroes, I enjoy browsing the forums. It's amazing how interesting it is to see different viewpoints. The forums of mmorpg may become a lot less interesting imho if we all agreed on the game. For me reading other people's feelings is akin to getting a peripheral vision on the game on aspects I've not thought of. I really enjoy reading the forums for that reason.

One man's boredom is another man's relaxation, and vice versa. For me this means an mmorpg needs to have that dial for difficulty just like a stereo system has a volume control. And the mmorpg that succeeds in being the ultimate mmorpg will be the one that can please all the "fanbois" and "whiners", who are basically people with different tastes in music.

2. Possibly related to #1, I am not very good at this game. I don't suck. My guildies and I get by. The fact is, though, most of us are 30-somethings with careers, marriages, children, etc. We don't have a glut of free time so what other people are calling boring or easy is still a challenge to us. (Cases in point: we were recently stopped cold on our first attempts at both Sorrow's Embrace story mode and the Underground Facility/FotM end boss.) If you've overcome all of the challenges in the game, I salute you, but please don't insinuate that my guild is a bunch of button-pushing rodents.

Thank you for posting this. "This game is too easy" is such a repeated refrain, with the side benefit of propping up the poster as a skilled, elite player.

It's rare to see someone say the opposite.

Plenty of people had difficulty getting used to this game. The mobility, the multi-use skills, watching for telegraphs... all threw players used to traditional combat. This may not be the most challenging game, but it certainly isn't something that my dog can successfully play if I throw some kibble on the keyboard.

I'm certainly not a pro video game player. I'm not the average keyboard-turning, stand still and button-mash player either. Even out in the open world, there are times when I get in over my head. I aggro too many mobs, or take on a veteran I haven't learned yet. It can take me a mistake or two to get the timing down on dodging a telegraphed attack.

Honestly, the more I read people talking about MMORPGs, the more I see arguments coming down to one thing. How much do people commit to a game? How does a developer satisfy both the player who has played every hot release for the last ten years as well as the player who samples a title here and there? How does a developer provide content and rewards to satisfy a player who plays the game like a full time job while not overwhelming the players who play the game as a part of an otherwise balanced life?

Hence the "hardcore" vs "casuals" debate.

Producers aren't content with keeping one or the other as their target audience. Players aren't content with identifying a game as targeting them or not, and moving on to one that does target them.

Producers want income from every gamer, and gamers want every MMORPG to satisfy them.

What truely keeps surprising me is that there hardly seem to be any companies that dare to believe in the quality of their own product. Because quality sells, it really does. I really wish there was a company with enough determination, resources and finances to make something really good. A publisher with at least some idealism to want to make a very high quality game.

Instead gameplay usually seems to be a (cowardly) mix of common denominator and max profit. Safe and profitable. So some people want horizontral progression? Throw it in the mix! Wait, most mmo's also have gear grind? Throw it in the mix too!
And sadly, people are generally still ok with it. Partially, of course, because there's no good alternatives, which make a lot of people believe that it's not even possible to make a good, enjoyable, intelligent quality game at all.

Duskwolf, I'm happy there's still idealists like him that have faith in game maker's ability to really make something remarkable. And won't settle for mediocrity, like most of us do.

Try The Secret World and tell me

Zero_Soulreaver, on 10 December 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

This is exactly the problem, people see a few bad posts and think it is what the entire community is about. It happens with every single MMO including WoW. People see a few people they don't agree with and say "omg this community is filled with jerks!"

The reality is that a community is not just what you see in forums or what you think you see in game, it's a lot more than that. Community is about those you pay attention to as well as those you don't even notice, but nobody seems to look at it that way. Besides in most MMOs you can't even talk for the entire player base b/c their are communities within communities that you don't know exist. I learned early on when first starting MMOs that their are too many people to only harp on the ones you just don't like.

Well, when the main forum and this one are the same kind of negative environment then you add every gw2 forum on every language ( who clearly you don't give a damn of) and well, they are the same exact kind of forum with same kind of content, something smells not good, am i wrong?

I guess the SWOTR massleaving or ffonline fail was a fake and never happened at all, right?

Well, when the main forum and this one are the same kind of negative environment then you add every gw2 forum on every language ( who clearly you don't give a damn of) and well, they are the same exact kind of forum with same kind of content, something smells not good, am i wrong?

I guess the SWOTR massleaving or ffonline fail was a fake and never happened at all, right?

Forums mean little to nothing to me besides opinions and discussion, but it depends on the person. The in-game community is not always the same in view as the forum community.

Sure if that's how you see things, but some people don't care and will play what they want no matter what. At the end of the day, It doesn't matter to most people what everyone else says or thinks about the game because you are the one playing. Their will be a group of people who like it no matter what. It's just up to you to decide what you want to do.

People will still play what they want even with massleaving. Games like Aion, Rift, Tera still exist and still have a community no matter what. Everyone gets so wrapped up in what is popular but you really have to do what's right for you as a gamer. Look at WoW players, you really think they care what anyone thinks about them or their game? They don't, they do what they want.

Newer MMO gamers these days don't understand that you may have to do some searching and a community doesn't always just come to you, begging for you to play with them. You don't just log on forums everyday and suddenly say "I know everything about the GW2 community"...sadly many do not understand this at all.

If some people see negativity on a forum and decide to leave, that's on them. However most MMO gamers are smarter than this and take forum activity with a lump of salt.

Wait .. this is like, one of several TSW comments I've seen you make lately. I'm not exactly sure (because it seems silly), but are you touting TSW as some awesome MMO and/or Funcom as some wonderful developer?

I like the PvE in GW2 a lot, hell roaming around in the open world exploring, gathering, killing stuff and completing zones with my buddy is mostly what I do - but I can see why people would find it boring, and yeah I do find it lacking and repetitive in some aspects.

Basically I miss personal story style "world quests" for each zone that would give better context to each zone. I tend to feel like I'm simply running around doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff, a small story driven quest chain would go far in making each zone feel more personal and alive.

I love dynamic events, even when they devolve into zergs there's a "mwahaha look at 'em die" chuckle factor involved - but what I mis is the feeling of permanence and true world changing... I'd love it if the world changed more drastically (if only with different weather effects graphically) and heart quests were actually different depending on which faction is in control (e.g seraph vs centaur, pact vs risen etc).

Hearts are kind of underutilized - I'd love it if they offered a sort of "meta heart" thing for lvl 80s with different, more challenging objectives and unique skins as rewards. This could tie in with my suggestion below:

I'd like it if the game had randomly generating "mini dungeons" in the world that one would need to look for. I guess some could be solo and some could be 5-man, and they would close up once a player has completed them. Maybe you could view them a bit like those mini dungeons in games like torchlight and diablo 3, or maybe mini fractal style dungeons in the open world.

I should have my fifth character at 80 by the end of the day, having done nothing except PvE (actually, I did WvWvW for 10 minutes once), and I still find it extremely enjoyable. Challenging? Not really. But I like it. I'm not sure what it is about it, but I have fun with it.

Obviously this is totally subjective, and I can't tell someone who finds it dull (or too easy or too hard) that they're wrong - but it's the right fit for me. FWIW, my demographic is 30-something male with a wife, kids, full-time job, and a life outside the game.

(I'm sorry, Jump 'n' Move. I couldn't take your post seriously. Then I realised it was meant to be a clever ironic satire, because really, it couldn't be anything else. And I've treated it as such.)

Man you sure like to twist words, especially for a post that was supposed to be supporting you. It was satire to a degree, but more so in respect to you voicing your opinions being a positive thing, even if i had some incorrect assumptions (ie cash shop spending).I found the criticism in your posts more positive than negatively just bashing the game, even if a couple posts I've read seemed to be re-jumbled versions of previous posts but that's because you were making the same point. But I digress.

I wish story mode interested me more, but i just feel detached whenever I play through it. Like the starter quest has some of the feel of old Pre, but the rest just feels like I'm reading and accepting a EULA all the time. Read, next, read, next, repeat. That and the puppet show didn't do it for me. But i think that's because I just might prefer the old long cutscenes, and wall of texts. at least for a story line/mission mode.

But i think that's because I just might prefer the old long cutscenes, and wall of texts. at least for a story line/mission mode.

I miss them too, a lot. I loved the in-action cutscenes where everyone was involved.
Much to annoyanyce of my teammates ^^

These cutscenes .. have you noticed that people don't even look each other in the eye? And seem to be looking at .. somewhere or someone not shown? And also that you can stand 100 yards away, have a private conversation with that NPC and when the scene ends he/she's still far away.

The lip animations are great, of course, but it fails to immerse me. And that's not because of bad voice acting, because in GW that wasn't always that great either.

Forums mean little to nothing to me besides opinions and discussion, but it depends on the person. The in-game community is not always the same in view as the forum community.

Sure if that's how you see things, but some people don't care and will play what they want no matter what. At the end of the day, It doesn't matter to most people what everyone else says or thinks about the game because you are the one playing. Their will be a group of people who like it no matter what. It's just up to you to decide what you want to do.

People will still play what they want even with massleaving. Games like Aion, Rift, Tera still exist and still have a community no matter what. Everyone gets so wrapped up in what is popular but you really have to do what's right for you as a gamer. Look at WoW players, you really think they care what anyone thinks about them or their game? They don't, they do what they want.

Newer MMO gamers these days don't understand that you may have to do some searching and a community doesn't always just come to you, begging for you to play with them. You don't just log on forums everyday and suddenly say "I know everything about the GW2 community"...sadly many do not understand this at all.

If some people see negativity on a forum and decide to leave, that's on them. However most MMO gamers are smarter than this and take forum activity with a lump of salt.

I quoted this particular

Quote

Besides in most MMOs you can't even talk for the entire player base b/c their are communities within communities that you don't know exist

to answer. As you see, i know multiple languages, i read them, and i see a copypaste of this forum and main one, where 99 are complains spitting to the face of Anet and how they manage the content or the massleaving quoting main forum's posts or directly writing "meh i'm done, i have X and Y to play" "i'm asking a refund waiting back my money" etc etc, one fanboy act the white knight telling them everything is perfect, false information, "you don't know other realities, other people's point of view, just the one of this forum".
Clearly yes, other's people opinion doesn't matter. I still find gw2 a nice game to play even alone and do my stuff killing a moa. I have a buddy who just love to log, jump 1 hour around mystic and logoff. For him, it's gw2 too. How you dare to explain him this game is not jumping bunny

Sinful01, on 11 December 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Wait .. this is like, one of several TSW comments I've seen you make lately. I'm not exactly sure (because it seems silly), but are you touting TSW as some awesome MMO and/or Funcom as some wonderful developer?

This words

Quote

I'm happy there's still idealists like him that have faith in game maker's ability to really make something remarkable. And won't settle for mediocrity

are bonded to my answer. Expecially about content and depth. Yes, maybe Funcom are not the top end, but for sure the game is "particular" and imho 10 times better than gw2 at current status, and how is managed.
Shame is a subbed one.

I too find pve rather boring (and Orr infuriating) and easy. I haven't logged in since the announcement of gear stat increases and haven't decided quite yet if I want to continue with the game or not. Rome: Total War 2 is calling anyway...

Mostly I find something missing from PvE and the game in general. I think it is perhaps because I found playing as a protection monk in GW1 far more challenging and dynamic than the combat I've encountered in GW2. I have a level 80 with nearly 100% map completion.

I don't have a lot of time for gaming anymore. Which looks to be the consensus of us 30 somethings. For now, GW2's PvE just doesn't hold my interest. I am revisiting the Super Nintendo and having more fun than I did playing my ranger up to 80. Earthworm Jim anyone?

I am thinking GW2 just might not be a game for me. For those of you enjoying yourselves, great! I may see you in a few months or here on the forums.

I am thinking GW2 just might not be a game for me. For those of you enjoying yourselves, great! I may see you in a few months or here on the forums.

and this is something i feel like should be encouraged more. GW2 is flexible, it works with you. dont have much time to play? great! just dont play, its not like you are paying a sub right? and you can come back any time you want!

leave, try other things, get life taken care of, Gw2 aint going anywhere any time soon. maybe in a few months there will be game enhancements that improve your GW2 experience! best wishes!

and this is something i feel like should be encouraged more. GW2 is flexible, it works with you. dont have much time to play? great! just dont play, its not like you are paying a sub right? and you can come back any time you want!

leave, try other things, get life taken care of, Gw2 aint going anywhere any time soon. maybe in a few months there will be game enhancements that improve your GW2 experience! best wishes!

Believe me, if the client was free to download, and with same content and changes we had (geargrind etc) even loads of bugs on every patch, geargrind, everything was just a matter of a shrugs, who cares, is free, if later is enjoyable well i'll back.
Sadly, we bough this game and was expensive too. And carry a history of his predecessor and launch fakes wrote by the very hands of the CEO.
Now, we read so many angry of it, leavers , bashers , refunds not accomplished pretending a new invented rule of 6 months as a limit etc.
Not everyone have gw2 thanks to daddy's money.
Even them, don't accept this waste of money.
And yes, to be clear, there are laws to protect customers, it's just customers ignoring them even if you lead them and show them where to read and start to do something

Uhm yes. But the game is sold worldwide, so is pointless talk about asia or european's or american law per se.
Even doing it, every country behave different. I was talking about law protecting customers, not just about refund.

Uhm yes. But the game is sold worldwide, so is pointless talk about asia or european's or american law per se.
Even doing it, every country behave different. I was talking about law protecting customers, not just about refund.

generally the loop holes to escape these laws are located in the Terms of Service that everyone accepts but no one reads.

I miss them too, a lot. I loved the in-action cutscenes where everyone was involved.
Much to annoyanyce of my teammates ^^

These cutscenes .. have you noticed that people don't even look each other in the eye? And seem to be looking at .. somewhere or someone not shown? And also that you can stand 100 yards away, have a private conversation with that NPC and when the scene ends he/she's still far away.

The lip animations are great, of course, but it fails to immerse me. And that's not because of bad voice acting, because in GW that wasn't always that great either.

Haha yea the lips move but the npc could be looking at a tent and speaking like they are looking right at you. yea totally know what you mean. I think that they shouldn't even bother with the extra cutscene. Keep voice-over in combination with the npc text, but just keep the fight going. Don't bother transitioning to that puppet show style cutscene. If you need to stop it for a cutscene i feel it should be full blown movie.

That way if you don't care about story you can continue playing the game as you hear the talk, but if you don't you could literally roleplay the scene out as it happens. You could then have an extra option to turn free camera on when in cutscene if not already enabled - that way you could manipulate the view to your liking or some how pair it to being in adjacent range to the NPC so that it auto-triggers the camera change to bring the immersion to another level.

If you needed something to be less dynamic then a traditional cutscene is the way to go.