With all the attention on street racing these days and the new laws going into effect it looks like its only going to get worse. So sadly today 2 women were killed in a 5 vehicle crash. Apparently a BMW and an Audi may have been street racing and caused this crash. Seems like every time I hear about a crash these days they end the story with "street racing may have been to blame". The media seems all too ready to blame it on street racing. Sorry about those women though thats pretty sad. Both driver lost their license and face criminal charges. Heres a question which may sound dumb but I really dont know. If you lose you license (G, or G2) under these new laws for the one week, but you also own a bike which is under the M liscense can you still ride?

Bimmer Heaven

10-06-2007, 11:59 PM

No, the two are linked, anything you do on one will reflect on the other....

spoony_prelude

10-07-2007, 01:46 AM

No, the two are linked, anything you do on one will reflect on the other....

ya doesnt matters if its ur M, DZ AZ as long as its a licence to operate a motor vehicle you lose it! what about if ur a pilot can u still fly or no?:confused:

Just one week after Ontario's tough new street racing laws came into effect, Peel police have charged two brothers in a Brampton five-vehicle crash that killed two women.

Speeding is likely to blame, police said.

Witnesses told police two men – each driving a different car – were speeding in excess of 140 km/h just after noon yesterday when one lost control, setting off a chain reaction that sent three other cars careering across the road. The posted speed limit in the area is 80 km/h.

The women, believed to be in their late 30s or early 40s, from nearby Palgrave, were driving together in a burgundy Grand Am. Both were pronounced dead at the scene.

The brothers each face two counts of criminal negligence causing death, but street racing charges may soon follow.

"There was obviously evidence to suggest people were responsible," said Const. Adam Minnion of Peel Region police. "We can't confirm this is a racing incident just yet."

Investigators worked for more than nine hours, some of it during lightning and torrential rain, piecing together what happened from nearly 150 metres of wreckage.

Who hit whom is still unclear, Minnion said, but the road was dry at the time of the crash.

"It is such a destructive mess-up, they're still figuring out what happened," he said, describing it as the worst accident he's seen in nearly a decade of policing.

"There's literally cars everywhere."

Before the crash, two cars were travelling south along Highway 50, toward Mayfield Rd., north of Major MacKenzie Dr., police said.

Early evidence suggests one, believed to be a black or dark blue Audi, lost control first. The second car was a grey BMW.

"We don't know if they rear-ended (the Grand Am) at such a high speed to push them, or if they crossed over a lane and hit it," Minnion said.

"(But) the Audi lost control somehow – it almost sounds like one car was in front of the other."

When it was all over, the Audi – its front smashed into a guardrail – rested against a tractor-trailer stopped on the northbound shoulder of Highway 50.

The rig's driver was unhurt, having pulled over with moments to spare after hearing a general alert over his CB radio about the accident as it was happening.

Drivers and passengers of the other cars were treated for minor injuries on the scene. Both brothers were unhurt.

"There's no way to go to that scene and tell who was going which way," Minnion said. "The (cars) are everywhere."

Highway 50 from Mayfield Rd. to Castlemore Rd. was closed until around 10 p.m.

Police seized their cars under new provincial legislation that stipulates the vehicle of any driver speeding more than 50 km/h over the limit will be impounded for seven days, and the driver's licence suspended, also for seven days. There is a minimum $2,000 fine on conviction.

At least 225 cars have been impounded since the law took effect last Sunday.

Yesterday's crash was the second fatal collision in the area in 24 hours.

A young woman was killed Friday when the car in which she was a passenger collided with another at the intersection of Finch and Steeles Aves. just before 7:45 p.m.

rdtx2005

10-07-2007, 10:11 AM

http://multimedia.thestar.com/images/assets/282822_3.JPG

rdtx2005

10-07-2007, 10:12 AM

With all the attention on street racing these days and the new laws going into effect it looks like its only going to get worse. So sadly today 2 women were killed in a 5 vehicle crash. Apparently a BMW and an Audi may have been street racing and caused this crash. Seems like every time I hear about a crash these days they end the story with "street racing may have been to blame". The media seems all too ready to blame it on street racing. Sorry about those women though thats pretty sad. Both driver lost their license and face criminal charges. Heres a question which may sound dumb but I really dont know. If you lose you license (G, or G2) under these new laws for the one week, but you also own a bike which is under the M liscense can you still ride?

looking at the pictures of the crash.. it's hard to believe that speed was 'not' the cause of the deaths

325isRED

10-07-2007, 11:59 AM

The worst part about this is the loss of life, But what really pisses me off, is that these were adults, 22 & 27.... ****ers

AMG_POWER

10-07-2007, 12:12 PM

sad, I wonder whats the next law they gonna think of?

jello_g

10-07-2007, 12:15 PM

No law is too harsh for idiots responsible for this sort of mayhem. Some people just don't deserve to drive ever.

El Gato Liso

10-07-2007, 12:16 PM

heres one of the 2 brothers

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=650310233&hiq=machado%2Csteven

Soldo

10-07-2007, 12:20 PM

ya doesnt matters if its ur M, DZ AZ as long as its a licence to operate a motor vehicle you lose it! what about if ur a pilot can u still fly or no?:confused:

Apperently that crash that happened in Brampton a few weeks ago with the truck driver and the 2 girls. The truck driver got his licence suspended but was able to keep his trucker's licence because he needs it for work!
:confused:

BigD

10-07-2007, 12:55 PM

sad, I wonder whats the next law they gonna think of?

Just gotta keep upping the ante until people get the point. If losing your license and car isn't enough, start making it a criminal offense. Speeding isn't too different from walking into a not very busy supermarket and shooting a gun in random directions - odds are that 99% of the time no one will get hurt... but all it takes is a little "luck" and you'll easily kill someone. I'd personally much rather a blind person shoot a gun in my general direction than turn left as a light turns red, when some idiot decides he doesn't want to stop.

The main problem in this country is people drive so much, it's no more spectacular an event to them than breathing and they have no appreciation for what's involved. How many of you ever stop to think how many incredible things happen as you inhale? Well by the same token, how many of you ever stop to think that going 160kmh in a 2 ton car, you have about as much destructive energy as a pound of dynamite? Also how about the fact that in order to be an equal player in a collision as a minivan going 100kmh, a small car needs to travel about 140 kmh? (in other words, if a soccer mom in her minivan, mashes you in the back at 100 kmh, it's the same as if a normal car did it at 140)

Basic physics can be quite eye opening. But here's another one... Germany had about 7800 traffic fatalities in 1998 with a population of about 82 million. Canada had 3000 fatalities in 1997 with a population of 30 million. Disregarding population density since they are really about the same (we have more area but are clustered just like they are), that is pretty much the same rate. Germany is a country with extremely strict traffic laws where you lose your license for things like passing on the right. You know what, those death rates are pretty damn close to being exactly the same. The only conclusion I can come from this, which is normally obvious but sometimes lost when people clutch at straws to look for the "source" of the problem to find some knee jerk solution - there are stupid people EVERYWHERE, who are liable to do stupid shit and sometimes kill people as a result.

So while I think Canada is moving in the right direction with big brothering the roads, it's never going to make a huge difference unless they drastically change how we drive (ie all cars will be tracked and automatically shut down and fined/impounded when the driver speeds). Even if they mandate speed governors, the fix for someone who really wants one is a phone call to MarkD away.

dbworld4k

10-07-2007, 01:11 PM

BTW, does this street racing law apply to highways only, or local roads too? I'm wondering because it is filed under the HTA - so basically, what roads does the HTA apply to?

Mystikal

10-07-2007, 02:45 PM

BTW, does this street racing law apply to highways only, or local roads too? I'm wondering because it is filed under the HTA - so basically, what roads does the HTA apply to?

Um, every public road is a highway. What you call a "highway" is just a nickname for an expressway.

Jay

Mystikal

10-07-2007, 02:48 PM

Just gotta keep upping the ante until people get the point. If losing your license and car isn't enough, start making it a criminal offense. Speeding isn't too different from walking into a not very busy supermarket and shooting a gun in random directions - odds are that 99% of the time no one will get hurt... but all it takes is a little "luck" and you'll easily kill someone. I'd personally much rather a blind person shoot a gun in my general direction than turn left as a light turns red, when some idiot decides he doesn't want to stop.

The main problem in this country is people drive so much, it's no more spectacular an event to them than breathing and they have no appreciation for what's involved. How many of you ever stop to think how many incredible things happen as you inhale? Well by the same token, how many of you ever stop to think that going 160kmh in a 2 ton car, you have about as much destructive energy as a pound of dynamite? Also how about the fact that in order to be an equal player in a collision as a minivan going 100kmh, a small car needs to travel about 140 kmh? (in other words, if a soccer mom in her minivan, mashes you in the back at 100 kmh, it's the same as if a normal car did it at 140)

Basic physics can be quite eye opening. But here's another one... Germany had about 7800 traffic fatalities in 1998 with a population of about 82 million. Canada had 3000 fatalities in 1997 with a population of 30 million. Disregarding population density since they are really about the same (we have more area but are clustered just like they are), that is pretty much the same rate. Germany is a country with extremely strict traffic laws where you lose your license for things like passing on the right. You know what, those death rates are pretty damn close to being exactly the same. The only conclusion I can come from this, which is normally obvious but sometimes lost when people clutch at straws to look for the "source" of the problem to find some knee jerk solution - there are stupid people EVERYWHERE, who are liable to do stupid shit and sometimes kill people as a result.

So while I think Canada is moving in the right direction with big brothering the roads, it's never going to make a huge difference unless they drastically change how we drive (ie all cars will be tracked and automatically shut down and fined/impounded when the driver speeds). Even if they mandate speed governors, the fix for someone who really wants one is a phone call to MarkD away.

http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43952

;)

Jay

CaptainGomes

10-07-2007, 02:53 PM

A driver's licence is not linked to a pilot's licence, so one does not lose their piloting priviliges in such a case. However, if a pilot gets a criminal record, good luck finding a job. If one of these gents is a pilot (and I think he is), he may also have his career in jeapardy.

Folks, I truly hate the new "street-racing" law that came out, but it's because of tragedies like this that they come out. We all need to do our part to drive more responsibly than this. When loss of life is the result, we need to step back and put a bit more thought into the consequences. I believe the speed limits are ridiculously low, and driving is generally atrocious here in Canada, but there's no way we will ever get support for raising speed limits and being treated more fairly if these sorts of accidents continue to happen.

dbworld4k

10-07-2007, 03:00 PM

Um, every public road is a highway. What you call a "highway" is just a nickname for an expressway.

Jay

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. And one more Q: this law gives authority only to OPP and York Regional, or any law enforcement agencies in Ontario?

Mystikal

10-07-2007, 03:10 PM

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. And one more Q: this law gives authority only to OPP and York Regional, or any law enforcement agencies in Ontario?

Since the HTA applies to all public roadways, I'd assume any enforcement agency with the authority to give out infraction notice can impound the car now. Pretty damn scary.

Jay

BigD

10-07-2007, 03:46 PM

http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43952

;)

Jay

I never implied I've never been part of the group of idiots. And I'd like to think I'm not the dumbest of the bunch, I knew the repercussions and yet when you don't have enough self control, you do things like that. I've learned my lesson, thankfully without losing my license, doing jailtime or killing anyone.

EDIT: Oh man that thread brings back memories...

Bmwstylz

10-07-2007, 06:07 PM

The article says witnesses "report" but There was no mention of a cop standing there with a radar gun catching them going 140km/h.

Lets go with innocent until proven guilty. We don't know what caused that accident yet other than hearsay. Maybe they were driving fast, but what triggered it?? Did someone change lanes without looking and cut the Audi off? Eye witness reports are highly unreliable, and at this point its safe to say no one can say for certain what exactly happened.

sirex

10-07-2007, 06:41 PM

lol..
a citizen pulled out a stop watch, and recorded the time it took them to drive 100 meters, with that he found out it was 140kmh. he then called CTV, glabal news, and told them the story.

jello_g

10-07-2007, 06:59 PM

Two people are dead and you wish to make light of this incident? The debris field was reported to be ~150 metres, certainly further than would be created from cars travelling closer to the speed limit. Expect more charges to be filed.

BigD

10-07-2007, 07:40 PM

lol..
a citizen pulled out a stop watch, and recorded the time it took them to drive 100 meters, with that he found out it was 140kmh. he then called CTV, glabal news, and told them the story.

You don't need a citizen with a stopwatch - you need a cop who passed highschool physics. With the collision distance, gross weight of the cars and knowledge/experience of the relevant friction force, you can figure out the velocity at impact. What do you guys think they were doing there all night in the thunderstorm, scratching their asses?

Bimmer Heaven

10-07-2007, 08:46 PM

You don't need a citizen with a stopwatch - you need a cop who passed highschool physics. With the collision distance, gross weight of the cars and knowledge/experience of the relevant friction force, you can figure out the velocity at impact. What do you guys think they were doing there all night in the thunderstorm, scratching their asses?

From the article they made it sound like no one had a cluse of what happened, who hit who, and why, etc etc...BUT the sure thing was they are racing and speeding!

(but we dont know if it wasnt a soccer mom that came out of a driveway not looking, and cut them off....or something of the sort) I'm sorry for those who died, but lets wait till we know more before we point fingers.

enfield

10-07-2007, 10:09 PM

Basic physics can be quite eye opening. But here's another one... Germany had about 7800 traffic fatalities in 1998 with a population of about 82 million. Canada had 3000 fatalities in 1997 with a population of 30 million. Disregarding population density since they are really about the same (we have more area but are clustered just like they are), that is pretty much the same rate. Germany is a country with extremely strict traffic laws where you lose your license for things like passing on the right. You know what, those death rates are pretty damn close to being exactly the same. The only conclusion I can come from this, which is normally obvious but sometimes lost when people clutch at straws to look for the "source" of the problem to find some knee jerk solution - there are stupid people EVERYWHERE, who are liable to do stupid shit and sometimes kill people as a result.

So while I think Canada is moving in the right direction with big brothering the roads, it's never going to make a huge difference unless they drastically change how we drive (ie all cars will be tracked and automatically shut down and fined/impounded when the driver speeds). Even if they mandate speed governors, the fix for someone who really wants one is a phone call to MarkD away.

You bring up Germany. I was there last week and drove at 180-230kph on the unregulated portions of Autobahn 8, 3 and 9. I clocked 2000km on the Autobahns. The traffic density is greater than on Canadian 400 series highways. I did not see a single accident and I did not feel unsafe at any time. It was a relaxed and fast drive. There were limits near cities and the limits varied from 80-130kph. Everyone followed the limit - when there was one.

Speed does not kill. Idiots kill. Giving up our freedoms does not make people safe. The speed limit in Canada is unduly low (I am talking Highway and not city limits) and I think it would be much better to have the limit at 140kph and then have it inforced. We have a HUGE country and 100kph does not work. Do you guys know that the death rates in Montana actually went up when they put in a speed limit?? See link:
http://www.motorists.org/pressreleases/home/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

STALKER

10-07-2007, 10:18 PM

You bring up Germany. I was there last week and drove at 180-230kph on the unregulated portions of Autobahn 8, 3 and 9. I clocked 2000km on the Autobahns. The traffic density is greater than on Canadian 400 series highways. I did not see a single accident and I did not feel unsafe at any time. It was a relaxed and fast drive. There were limits near cities and the limits varied from 80-130kph. Everyone followed the limit - when there was one.

Speed does not kill. Idiots kill. Giving up our freedoms does not make people safe. The speed limit in Canada is unduly low (I am talking Highway and not city limits) and I think it would be much better to have the limit at 140kph and then have it inforced. We have a HUGE country and 100kph does not work. Do you guys know that the death rates in Montana actually went up when they put in a speed limit?? See link:
http://www.motorists.org/pressreleases/home/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

I agree. I was also in Germany about 6 months ago for a few weeks. Everyone on the Autobahn pretty much follows the speed limits. If you were on a unrestricted zone, then hit a speed restricted zone(which is very very often) ppl slowed right down. The drivers were in the proper lanes and used the roads properly.
Our driver education, and our mentality is just completely wrong in North America.
When I got back from there, driving on the 401 at 80KM scared the hell out of because of just how badly we drive here. I was more comfortable doing 200KM on the autobahn then traveling 80km on the 401 or QEW.

Its very sad to see how the public has jumped all over speeding and not addressing the real issues and how to solve them, this new law is not going to do the trick.

My heart goes to the families that lost their loved ones in this tragic accident. Those 2 idiots should be getting man slaughter.

BigD

10-07-2007, 11:01 PM

I've driven in Germany too guys. Just because you did 180-230 it doesn't mean that everyone there does. I drove a lot on the autobahn and even in the unrestricted zones, most people drive 110ish. Yeah there are some people going 140-160 but that's fast. Very rarely do you see someone topping 200 (usually foreigners, me too for that matter when I had to make it from Berlin to Nurburg in a bit over 4 hours). Every German friend or just a random visitor I've met here remarks how fast people drive here on average. We do NOT need any higher speed limits. Saying that we'll just enforce the new limits (ie implying "for a change"...) is silly because if they had enough man power to enforce the current speed limits they would (ie pull over everyone going 120+). If you set the limit to 140 there will be even more retards going 150-160, not even because they feel it's safe but because they think that it's their right and freedom to do so and they're sticking it to the man.

There are just too many angry people here. You know what has really converted me to being another limit+10 driver, besides getting a dedicated track car? Living in Vancouver for 2 years. The driving skill there is attrocious but you know what, people just don't seem to be in any great big ****ing hurry to go anywhere. They relax and drive safely. When I came back here I got to see the aggression as an "outsider". Everyone's angry for no particular reason, thinking every other driver is a retard, and they MUST go faster than those ****ing retards... no idea why really but they have to!!! It is getting progressively worse every year with more and more cars on the road - the hate builds with the traffic volume. I'm sorry but raising the speed limit with a culture like this is just begging for more carnage. The governing bodies know this and that's why you'll never see it. You can call it losing your freedom but in reality, if a culture like this were set truly free it would destroy itself. Sometimes people need to be forced into doing something for their own good against their will - that's what governments are for.

enfield

10-07-2007, 11:20 PM

I've driven in Germany too guys. Just because you did 180-230 it doesn't mean that everyone there does. I drove a lot on the autobahn and even in the unrestricted zones, most people drive 110ish. Yeah there are some people going 140-160 but that's fast. Very rarely do you see someone topping 200 (usually foreigners, me too for that matter when I had to make it from Berlin to Nurburg in a bit over 4 hours). Every German friend or just a random visitor I've met here remarks how fast people drive here on average. We do NOT need any higher speed limits. Saying that we'll just enforce the new limits (ie implying "for a change"...) is silly because if they had enough man power to enforce the current speed limits they would (ie pull over everyone going 120+). If you set the limit to 140 there will be even more retards going 150-160, not even because they feel it's safe but because they think that it's their right and freedom to do so and they're sticking it to the man.

There are just too many angry people here. You know what has really converted me to being another limit+10 driver, besides getting a dedicated track car? Living in Vancouver for 2 years. The driving skill there is attrocious but you know what, people just don't seem to be in any great big ****ing hurry to go anywhere. They relax and drive safely. When I came back here I got to see the aggression as an "outsider". Everyone's angry for no particular reason, thinking every other driver is a retard, and they MUST go faster than those ****ing retards... no idea why really but they have to!!! It is getting progressively worse every year with more and more cars on the road - the hate builds with the traffic volume. I'm sorry but raising the speed limit with a culture like this is just begging for more carnage. The governing bodies know this and that's why you'll never see it. You can call it losing your freedom but in reality, if a culture like this were set truly free it would destroy itself. Sometimes people need to be forced into doing something for their own good against their will - that's what governments are for.

;) that is what the Military Government in Burma is also saying.

You do not give the people enough credit my friend. We vote the Government into power in this country :)

What do you think of the Montana report? http://www.motorists.org/pressreleases/home/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

slemmer

10-08-2007, 01:10 AM

I'm sure they'll read their on-board computer memory that recorded their rate of speed and date. This will be an insurance fact finding mission!

BigD

10-08-2007, 10:42 AM

;) that is what the Military Government in Burma is also saying.

You do not give the people enough credit my friend. We vote the Government into power in this country :)

What exactly is your point? So because you elect your rulers, you don't have to do what they say? Don't be childish.

What do you think of the Montana report? http://www.motorists.org/pressreleases/home/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

That report is bullshit. They claim after deregulating the speed limits, they recorded their lowest fatality rates ever. Yet when you scroll down to their source data, 1995 is when the deregulation was put in place, and all of the yearly fatality rates are about the same or even higher than the only pre-deregulation year they give, 1994. So I don't know how they possibly draw their conclusions because their own data doesn't support them.

SickFinga

10-08-2007, 12:28 PM

I don't know wtf are you guys talking. People here drive pretty good. Most people on the road are courteous, look where they go and signal when they change lanes. Sure they are some idiots on the road, but it is quite rare.

And yes Dmitry we need to have speed limits increased. Out cars get safer, roads get better and wider, yet we still have speed limits from decades ago. Even shit hole country like Estonia has speed limits of 120km/h on highways, and people there seriously don't know how to drive.

enfield

10-08-2007, 12:52 PM

What exactly is your point? So because you elect your rulers, you don't have to do what they say? Don't be childish.

Lighten up my friend. I ask a question or think a thought and you launch a personal attack....

Hmmm.... are you angry at me for some reason? I do not think I have done anything to anger you.

My point is that we elect our officials and they should not forget that. In a Democracy, we, the people are supposed to be the rulers. I am saddened to see that some of us are so willing to give up our Democratic rights in the name of safety. Fact of life - we will all die. Question - do we want to die in a society such as the one described in 1984 by George Orwell? See link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

I wish you a happy and safe life my friend. I hope you do not call me names for wishing you well.

Bimmer Heaven

10-08-2007, 01:40 PM

I don't know wtf are you guys talking. People here drive pretty good. Most people on the road are courteous, look where they go and signal when they change lanes. Sure they are some idiots on the road, but it is quite rare.

I gotta dissagree on this one Vlad...I drive in many shitty places including one of the poorest countrys in europe as mirek will be qick to point out, but i never get as upset at stupid drivers as i do here! People do 90km/h in the fast lane, and cutt off others ALL the time (some of the main problems). I bet you can NOT cross TO on the 401 from one end to the other without that happening to you at least several times!

BigD

10-08-2007, 01:44 PM

Lighten up my friend. I ask a question or think a thought and you launch a personal attack....

Hmmm.... are you angry at me for some reason? I do not think I have done anything to anger you.

My point is that we elect our officials and they should not forget that. In a Democracy, we, the people are supposed to be the rulers. I am saddened to see that some of us are so willing to give up our Democratic rights in the name of safety. Fact of life - we will all die. Question - do we want to die in a society such as the one described in 1984 by George Orwell? See link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

I wish you a happy and safe life my friend. I hope you do not call me names for wishing you well.

I didn't launch anything, I simply called your statements childish. Also if you think that drawing a parallel between my thoughts and the actions of a military dictatorship is "just thinking a thought" then maybe you need to re-evaluate your definition of tactfulness so you are not so shocked the next time you don't get smiles and sunshine in response.

Your point, as the post above reiterates even though you don't seem to understand, is that there are only two possible conditions - anarchy and dictatorship. I say again, this is a childish view. In a Democracy, we, the people are not supposed to be the rulers. We simply get to choose them. If you really think that the person getting fried in an electric chair in Texas has any rule over the president or his executioner for that matter, you need to think again.

If I gave the people as much credit as you, I would be hopelessly confused about why George W. is still in power. But I'm not, and I understand that the masses are scared, stupid, impulsive and easily manipulated. Some individuals are not but the masses are. This is why in the most free system of government, in order for it to prosper, there needs to be an iron fist. Why do you think the Chairman of the Federal Reserve is not elected but rather appointed, and cannot be vetoed? Because politicians want to stay in power and will often do what the stupid masses want even though it is not in the best interest for them. This is when people like Dick Dodge and Alan Greenspan were necessary to slap them in the face and say NO! If people knew what was good for them, we would have no crack addicts or fast food chains but "the people" have never known what's good for them. They often need to be carried feet first, kicking and screaming, into doing what is right. They'll post on the internet about how it's all 1984 Big Brother and shit, and in the end they'll go on the road, scared of being pulled over and punished for breaking the rules set by "the man" and drive safely (for the most part).

BigD

10-08-2007, 01:50 PM

I don't know wtf are you guys talking. People here drive pretty good. Most people on the road are courteous, look where they go and signal when they change lanes. Sure they are some idiots on the road, but it is quite rare.

And yes Dmitry we need to have speed limits increased. Out cars get safer, roads get better and wider, yet we still have speed limits from decades ago. Even shit hole country like Estonia has speed limits of 120km/h on highways, and people there seriously don't know how to drive.

I'll pretend you didn't say anything about the driving skill or courtesy but you, like every other proponent of increased limits, seem to think that all that will happen if you raise the speedlimits is that people will get fewer tickets. Are you serious or just pulling my prick? If you set the limit at 120 don't you realize how many people will drive 130-140? And 140 in most areas of the GTA 401 or DVP is not a safe speed... It's just this weird mentality we all have that we have to go faster than the speed limit. If you raise it, the mentality will not go away.

Also car safety has not improved enough to account for the fact that people don't have nearly enough time to react in a catastrophy going 140 kmh, even if they maintained a safe distance, which is about 10x longer than what most people do.

CaptainGomes

10-08-2007, 02:01 PM

BigD, have you considered that perhaps speed limits are perfectly adequate at 100 KM/H in most of the GTA, but that on 400-series highways outside the GTA that is unrealistically low? The speed in which most people will drive is a function of their own abilities, the speed limits, road and traffic conditions. We would get a far greater benefit if we subtantially improved lane discipline. I can also assure you that the flow of traffic would dramatically improve.

Bimmer Heaven

10-08-2007, 02:04 PM

I'll pretend you didn't say anything about the driving skill or courtesy but you, like every other proponent of increased limits, seem to think that all that will happen if you raise the speedlimits is that people will get fewer tickets. Are you serious or just pulling my prick? If you set the limit at 120 don't you realize how many people will drive 130-140? And 140 in most areas of the GTA 401 or DVP is not a safe speed... It's just this weird mentality we all have that we have to go faster than the speed limit. If you raise it, the mentality will not go away.

Also car safety has not improved enough to account for the fact that people don't have nearly enough time to react in a catastrophy going 140 kmh, even if they maintained a safe distance, which is about 10x longer than what most people do.

Then just target unsafe drivers, and not those speeding!!! When they start handing out tons of tickets for not maintaining safe distance, the "mentality" will quick change! Its all linked to the $$$....when it starts costing you MORE to be an idiot driver then a fast one, people will change!

MarkD

10-08-2007, 02:20 PM

heres one of the 2 brothers

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=650310233&hiq=machado%2Csteven

It appears this page is now unavailable.

SickFinga

10-08-2007, 03:11 PM

I gotta dissagree on this one Vlad...I drive in many shitty places including one of the poorest countrys in europe as mirek will be qick to point out, but i never get as upset at stupid drivers as i do here! People do 90km/h in the fast lane, and cutt off others ALL the time (some of the main problems). I bet you can NOT cross TO on the 401 from one end to the other without that happening to you at least several times!

I guess when I drive idiots stay home ;) Seriously, I've never been to Bulgaria or driven in Germany, but I've driven in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania recently and they all SUCK! I don't even have to cross the city to find an idiot, I can guarantee I will find out within a couple of minutes of driving.

I'll pretend you didn't say anything about the driving skill or courtesy but you, like every other proponent of increased limits, seem to think that all that will happen if you raise the speedlimits is that people will get fewer tickets. Are you serious or just pulling my prick? If you set the limit at 120 don't you realize how many people will drive 130-140? And 140 in most areas of the GTA 401 or DVP is not a safe speed... It's just this weird mentality we all have that we have to go faster than the speed limit. If you raise it, the mentality will not go away.

Yes I do understand what would happen, people would still speed, no matter what the speed limit is. But I honestly think believe that doing 150 on a highway should not lead to a car seizure, 170 on the hand should(if speed limit is 120).

Also car safety has not improved enough to account for the fact that people don't have nearly enough time to react in a catastrophy going 140 kmh, even if they maintained a safe distance, which is about 10x longer than what most people do.
I'm pretty sure that todays car at 140 would out brake a car from 70ties doing a 100.
And I'm not saying increase speed everywhere, I agree 401 should stay 100km/h in the city, but 400, 427 and especially 407 should be increased to 120km/h

BigD

10-08-2007, 04:02 PM

BigD, have you considered that perhaps speed limits are perfectly adequate at 100 KM/H in most of the GTA, but that on 400-series highways outside the GTA that is unrealistically low? The speed in which most people will drive is a function of their own abilities, the speed limits, road and traffic conditions. We would get a far greater benefit if we subtantially improved lane discipline. I can also assure you that the flow of traffic would dramatically improve.

Yup, I'd buy that actually, well to a degree. This is the exact thinking behind deregulating the autobahns. In populated areas there are strictly enforced speed limits, some only as high as 90 (maybe even 80... but that could have been a red bull induced halucination after driving 200+ for 3 hours at that time).

The only thing that would make me hesitate in siding with that is the number of heavy trucks we have. I guess you could just do what they have in Montana - have a night/day speed limit for trucks, and a "common sense" speed limit for cars in areas like the london-windsor stretch of the 401. As their own statistics show, there's no real reduction in fatalities (in fact a slight increase in some years) but there's definitely no huge increase so at least it would make our life easier, if not a ton safer.

BigD

10-08-2007, 04:11 PM

Then just target unsafe drivers, and not those speeding!!! When they start handing out tons of tickets for not maintaining safe distance, the "mentality" will quick change! Its all linked to the $$$....when it starts costing you MORE to be an idiot driver then a fast one, people will change!

They do though! There are just too many! It's just like trying to ticket everyone doing 120 - there's not enough man power! They tried it with photo radar but people went up in arms about it. If you ticketed everyone driving the limit in the left lane or following too close, that's all the cops would ever do. So they do the next best thing and just look for the really bad ones.

BigD

10-08-2007, 04:22 PM

Yes I do understand what would happen, people would still speed, no matter what the speed limit is. But I honestly think believe that doing 150 on a highway should not lead to a car seizure, 170 on the hand should(if speed limit is 120).

It's just getting out of hand. 50 is as good a number as any I guess. Just say it in your head "50 over the limit"... that's ****ing ludicrous (and yeah I've done it and plenty more in my time). As you know I've been in Vancouver for 2 years. It's kind of like boiling a frog. You guys have been sitting in the hot water as it's getting hotter, I left when it was warm and came back to it getting ****ing hot and I can feel the difference. There are MANY more aggressive, hateful drivers on the road here right now compared to when I left. The prospect of the fine and huge insurance boost is just not doing it anymore.

I'm pretty sure that todays car at 140 would out brake a car from 70ties doing a 100.

It would but it's not the car that's the limiting factor - it's the douchebag behind the brake pedal that's supposed to press it, while he/she is on the phone and looking at the map or trying to figure out the ****ing iDrive. By the time this person sees and reacts to an emergency, at 140 it's all over.

enfield

10-08-2007, 04:35 PM

I didn't launch anything, I simply called your statements childish. Also if you think that drawing a parallel between my thoughts and the actions of a military dictatorship is "just thinking a thought" then maybe you need to re-evaluate your definition of tactfulness so you are not so shocked the next time you don't get smiles and sunshine in response.

Your point, as the post above reiterates even though you don't seem to understand, is that there are only two possible conditions - anarchy and dictatorship. I say again, this is a childish view. In a Democracy, we, the people are not supposed to be the rulers. We simply get to choose them. If you really think that the person getting fried in an electric chair in Texas has any rule over the president or his executioner for that matter, you need to think again.

If I gave the people as much credit as you, I would be hopelessly confused about why George W. is still in power. But I'm not, and I understand that the masses are scared, stupid, impulsive and easily manipulated. Some individuals are not but the masses are. This is why in the most free system of government, in order for it to prosper, there needs to be an iron fist. Why do you think the Chairman of the Federal Reserve is not elected but rather appointed, and cannot be vetoed? Because politicians want to stay in power and will often do what the stupid masses want even though it is not in the best interest for them. This is when people like Dick Dodge and Alan Greenspan were necessary to slap them in the face and say NO! If people knew what was good for them, we would have no crack addicts or fast food chains but "the people" have never known what's good for them. They often need to be carried feet first, kicking and screaming, into doing what is right. They'll post on the internet about how it's all 1984 Big Brother and shit, and in the end they'll go on the road, scared of being pulled over and punished for breaking the rules set by "the man" and drive safely (for the most part).

Wow. Sorry for comparing your thoughts to Burma's Military Government. I think a better parallel would be the Nazi Party!

OMG! Are you serious? While we are at should we sterlize "the people" whom you think are unfit?

The people made this country what it is. You need to respect your fellow human beings. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. You are an extremist. There is a middle ground. Have appropriate laws and then inforce them appropriately. A blanket speed limit on Highways (we are not talking about roads within city limits) is asinine. 140kph on a dry sunny day with ambient temp. at 25C and unlimited visibility is safer than 60 kph on a winter day with mixed precipitation. Show some common sense and think about the middle path.

My experience is that if you treat people with respect and kindness and help them take responsibility then they do step up to the plate. I work with kids/teens - and kids with IQ's below the 2nd percentile can take appropriate responsibility. If you treat people as though they are dumb then they will act so.

I am not going to be kind to you. I am going to treat you as an extremist and you will prove that you are an extremist. I was hoping that your kind of thinking died in April 1945.... I am sorry to see that it didn't. I am not surprised though because History often repeats itself. :(

Bimmer Heaven

10-08-2007, 06:32 PM

They do though! There are just too many! It's just like trying to ticket everyone doing 120 - there's not enough man power! They tried it with photo radar but people went up in arms about it. If you ticketed everyone driving the limit in the left lane or following too close, that's all the cops would ever do. So they do the next best thing and just look for the really bad ones.

I knew this "not enaugh man power" carap will come out sooner or later! If they stop harassing all the kids with Civics for having neon lights, or bimmers not having front licence plates, MANYBE they will have more people to get real criminals off the roads!!!
How about instead of the 250 cars they seized for 50 over, they seize that many for doing 90 in the passing lane! I think some people will get the point! Its not the lack of man power, its just focused at the wrong problem...

BigD

10-08-2007, 07:14 PM

I knew this "not enaugh man power" carap will come out sooner or later! If they stop harassing all the kids with Civics for having neon lights, or bimmers not having front licence plates, MANYBE they will have more people to get real criminals off the roads!!!
How about instead of the 250 cars they seized for 50 over, they seize that many for doing 90 in the passing lane! I think some people will get the point! Its not the lack of man power, its just focused at the wrong problem...

Yes, MAYBE if they took the time required to harass a couple of kids and hand out a few hundred no front plate tickets a week, and direct it at the hundreds of thousands of people that tailgate and speed 20 over every day, we'd solve the problem... but then maybe not.

Bimmer Heaven

10-08-2007, 07:47 PM

Yes, MAYBE if they took the time required to harass a couple of kids and hand out a few hundred no front plate tickets a week, and direct it at the hundreds of thousands of people that tailgate and speed 20 over every day, we'd solve the problem... but then maybe not.

I'm not saying they can ticket everyone, but just like with the speeding, you need to make harder punishments so not that many people do it! How about you loose your licence for a month for tailgating, or cutting people off? How many people on the news will it take before people start taking it seriously? The media plays a big role in it...and if you see soccer moms causing accidents on the front page, instead of the "street racers", maybe someting can get done...

BigD

10-08-2007, 08:05 PM

I'm not saying they can ticket everyone, but just like with the speeding, you need to make harder punishments so not that many people do it! How about you loose your licence for a month for tailgating, or cutting people off? How many people on the news will it take before people start taking it seriously? The media plays a big role in it...and if you see soccer moms causing accidents on the front page, instead of the "street racers", maybe someting can get done...

What you're talking about there in the beginning is escalation, which is what I said in my first post in this thread - that if it gets any worse, they will have to give harsher punishment for smaller violations and maybe even make them criminal after a certain point. I also said that I can think of situations where I'd much rather be assaulted with a gun than a car.

With regards to the media, they can only report what they can see. If soccer moms were causing crashes, you'd see that. Unfortunately(?) they don't. They may piss you off with their lack of driving skill and courtesy but they just don't crash and kill anyone. The ones that kill people are the kids with neon lights doing 50+ over the limit, flinging their car in and out of lanes, and later post on the internet about the asshole who wouldn't get out of their way and how people need to learn how to drive in this country.

Incidentally, speaking of harassing kids in civics, I'm sure if they had the authority, the cops would crush every one of those shitboxes and give those kids bicycles. A member on this board used to work EMS and told me about a crash he reported to at 7 and Islington, where an 18 year old kid in a civic blasted down the hill and T boned a 7 series with a young family inside. He killed everyone in the BMW, and survived. His words after that stuck in my head every since: "I watched the cop who had to investigate the scene and later tell the relatives of the family that they are all dead. Do you really think that the next time he goes to pull over another 18 year old for speeding, he will have any mercy?" I don't know about you Fil, but I can understand why they single out these people and not soccer moms who drive the limit in the left lane and leave their blinker on too long.

BimmerboyPH

10-08-2007, 10:36 PM

Maybe the government will realise that these new laws aren't going to stop the problem, and they will revise them or something. Or maybe they will give in and give us a setup similar to the german autobahns*mw*

SickFinga

10-09-2007, 06:26 AM

It's just getting out of hand. 50 is as good a number as any I guess. Just say it in your head "50 over the limit"... that's ****ing ludicrous (and yeah I've done it and plenty more in my time).

Yes, 50 over is a good number, and yes doing 100 in a 50 is crazy and you should lose your car for 7 days. But like I said, I believe that speed limits on out highways are too low, so 150 in a 100 doesn't sound that crazy. If our limits would be at 120, then 170 is a good number at which you lose your car.
Especially on 407, I see my self doing 130-140 there quite often, and it is pretty much flow of traffic at those speeds there.

BigD

10-09-2007, 07:30 AM

Yes, 50 over is a good number, and yes doing 100 in a 50 is crazy and you should lose your car for 7 days. But like I said, I believe that speed limits on out highways are too low, so 150 in a 100 doesn't sound that crazy. If our limits would be at 120, then 170 is a good number at which you lose your car.
Especially on 407, I see my self doing 130-140 there quite often, and it is pretty much flow of traffic at those speeds there.

I don't know about the 407 since I don't use it but I've heard the flow of traffic excuse many times... I don't know where you guys drive but I drive all of the major highways on the west end regularely and I don't go above 110 except to pass and I drive with the flow of traffic. In fact I still pass a LOT of people. There are a bunch that whiz by in the left lane and while you may be going with their flow, it's the exception, not the norm. I'd like to see a vid of someone sustaining 130-140 "with the flow" (not with 1 or 2 cars in the left lane).

e30bim

10-09-2007, 10:12 AM

I have two comments in regards to this. Firstly, the cops had no right to impound/suspend that guys license. They did not have a radar unit saying how fast they were going, and until it goes to court, they are innocent until proven guilty for the charges. I am going to say that I think it's horrible those people died, and if it was the brothers fault, then they should go to jail for what they did. But they are innocent until they are proven guilty or plead guilty. You have to be an idiot to race on public roads in Ontario right now. You're just waiting to made an example of. My dad told me so. Look at his picture, does he look like a man that would tell a lie with that shit eating grin on his face?

Secondly, I have been to Bulgaria and I have to say they have the worlds worst drivers there and the country is dirtier than the last dump I flushed down the toilet. (Who was it even talking about Bulgaria?!?!) Not only the drivers, there is ****ing farmers livestock that walk across the road there! I almost hit a goat.

SickFinga

10-09-2007, 10:23 AM

I don't know about the 407 since I don't use it but I've heard the flow of traffic excuse many times... I don't know where you guys drive but I drive all of the major highways on the west end regularely and I don't go above 110 except to pass and I drive with the flow of traffic. In fact I still pass a LOT of people. There are a bunch that whiz by in the left lane and while you may be going with their flow, it's the exception, not the norm. I'd like to see a vid of someone sustaining 130-140 "with the flow" (not with 1 or 2 cars in the left lane).

I don't know where you drive, but at 110 I get passed by 90% of traffic.

BigD

10-09-2007, 10:34 AM

I don't know where you drive, but at 110 I get passed by 90% of traffic.

Most common routes:

Any subset of 401 between Erin Mills and say Keele, 427 between 409 and QEW (here 100 is the flow of traffic), 410 from 401 to Derry, 403 from 410 to QEW. I can video a normal drive, with cruise set at 110.

Except for some people in the left lane, few are passing me, and I pass some. You just don't notice the people you pass. Try seriously driving 110 for an extended period, and instead of paying attention to people speeding in the left lane, notice how many are around you going the same speed or slower.

AMG_POWER

10-09-2007, 10:52 AM

maybe in light traffic 401 moves 110 but as many times as I drive there they are moving at least 130!

Quack

10-09-2007, 11:04 AM

I was on the 407 last week, and 70% of the cars were going 140+, you can't really drive slower than 120 unless there aren't any cars.

DINAN 3

10-09-2007, 04:59 PM

"D",

Unless you're driving in rush hour, left lane speeds average 120 or higher these days.
At 110, you'll get passed at least once every 30 seconds.

IMO.....one has to start by improving driver education and raise the bar to pass the in-car portion of the driving test (Incl. highway driving)...followed by an increase in speedlimit to 130, where deemed reasonable. Also, one should have to re-take the in car test every 10 yrs, to get rid of the old folgies that no longer belong on the road. Left lane hogging fines have to be raised to $500 or higher, with no trucks allowed in that lane.....period.

mirek

10-09-2007, 05:10 PM

Secondly, I have been to Bulgaria and I have to say they have the worlds worst drivers there and the country is dirtier than the last dump I flushed down the toilet. (Who was it even talking about Bulgaria?!?!) Not only the drivers, there is ****ing farmers livestock that walk across the road there! I almost hit a goat.

LMAO

BigD

10-09-2007, 05:17 PM

"D",

Unless you're driving in rush hour, left lane speeds average 120 or higher these days.
At 110, you'll get passed at least once every 30 seconds.

I didn't say I drive this speed in the left lane... and you probably mean every 3 seconds, since if someone's passing you only once every 30 seconds that's called speeding, not going with the flow.

Anyways, this is getting older than my underwear, we'll have to agree to disagree but I have the lawmakers on my side of the opinion. So unless you guys start a revolution or leave the country, you'll just have to deal with it.

Bimmer Heaven

10-09-2007, 05:21 PM

LMAO

OH NO!!! The two biggest loosers on this site are teaming up on me! I better run and hide before you find out where i live! (or start posting pictures of my dad)...:rolleyes:

mirek

10-09-2007, 05:46 PM

I just laughed cause it's funny. But why am I arguing with a loser who steals his company logo from a defunct company. How ironic though, both company's have\had questionable business ethics.

http://clapso.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/enron.jpg

Bimmer Heaven

10-09-2007, 06:01 PM

lol By the way, the logo was done by my good friend at www.Advage.com...so you have to talk to them if you think its stolen! *th-up*

mirek

10-09-2007, 06:14 PM

Why would I talk to them? Do I own euroshit designs inc? Perhaps YOU should talk to them since they blatantly stole your ass logo from another ass company. Sure suits you though.