Oh and THIS is why I don't want always-on to ever be a part of my gaming. I only have a limited amount of time to game and it has to be on my terms or it doesn't get done on time for reviews. Launch days like this will absolutely SimCity the whole damned thing for me.

People understand how DLC and digital downloads work. Have you ever loaned a friend your DLC or your copy of Minecraft 360? How is mentioning that even relevant?

... and when have you bought an "Install only" PC game, which chances are has a license key, and then lend it to a friend?

Install is install. The game discs are no longer a standalone product that simply proves ownership based on possession. So yeah ... Steam is the same bloody thing, except when you're done with a game, there is no way to recoup money and pass the game license on. IIRC, PS4 has yet to confirm that used games will play on the PS4. If there is something newer, then I missed it - there was a comment made earlier, but then rescinded by Sony.

I think maybe some people watched a different PS4 reveal - from some of the creepy comments re: Kinect integration, the Sony Eye may or may not also be required - Sony hasn't revealed that information yet - but it also does face recognition, etc.

The Sony PS4 reveal was unimpressive (to me, at least) and since PS3 sales (at the onset) were significantly boosted because it was the most affordable BD player at the time, I'm not understanding the backlash WRT MS going after the multimedia aspect of a product line that has always been targeting the entire entertainment experience. Yeah, more games. I get that - but from a user perspective, the interface and the benefits seem well thought out.

Conversely, their presentation was lukewarm at best, but that doesn't say anything of the product itself. I think their next task is to funnel all questions through a clear, simple and consistent message. They need to stay away from anything that smells of smoke and mirrors.

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"If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners." - Johnny Carson

My interest in Xbox1 will hang on how much I need to use the Kinect2 controller. Since I play at a desk about two feet from my screen I'm not going to want to even use it.

Ditto but for different reasons. Any home entertainment device that requires me to reconfigure my living room for use will simply not exist in my household. If consoles are moving in this direction, well then I'll just have to find a different hobby.

People understand how DLC and digital downloads work. Have you ever loaned a friend your DLC or your copy of Minecraft 360? How is mentioning that even relevant?

... and when have you bought an "Install only" PC game, which chances are has a license key, and then lend it to a friend?

Install is install. The game discs are no longer a standalone product that simply proves ownership based on possession. So yeah ... Steam is the same bloody thing, except when you're done with a game, there is no way to recoup money and pass the game license on. IIRC, PS4 has yet to confirm that used games will play on the PS4. If there is something newer, then I missed it - there was a comment made earlier, but then rescinded by Sony.

I think maybe some people watched a different PS4 reveal - from some of the creepy comments re: Kinect integration, the Sony Eye may or may not also be required - Sony hasn't revealed that information yet - but it also does face recognition, etc.

The Sony PS4 reveal was unimpressive (to me, at least) and since PS3 sales (at the onset) were significantly boosted because it was the most affordable BD player at the time, I'm not understanding the backlash WRT MS going after the multimedia aspect of a product line that has always been targeting the entire entertainment experience. Yeah, more games. I get that - but from a user perspective, the interface and the benefits seem well thought out.

Conversely, their presentation was lukewarm at best, but that doesn't say anything of the product itself. I think their next task is to funnel all questions through a clear, simple and consistent message. They need to stay away from anything that smells of smoke and mirrors.

When I sign in on Steam at my friend's house I can play after the install - it doesn't require me to pay twice. It should be tied to my account and only allow one instance at a time.

We know there is some confusion around used games on Xbox One and wanted to provide a bit of clarification on exactly what we’ve confirmed today. While there have been many potential scenarios discussed, today we have only confirmed that we designed Xbox One to enable our customers to trade in and resell games at retail.

Beyond that, we have not confirmed any specific scenarios.

Another piece of clarification around playing games at a friend’s house – should you choose to play your game at your friend’s house, there is no fee to play that game while you are signed in to your profile.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 04:16:29 AM by Purge »

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"If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners." - Johnny Carson

People understand how DLC and digital downloads work. Have you ever loaned a friend your DLC or your copy of Minecraft 360? How is mentioning that even relevant?

... and when have you bought an "Install only" PC game, which chances are has a license key, and then lend it to a friend?

Install is install. The game discs are no longer a standalone product that simply proves ownership based on possession. So yeah ... Steam is the same bloody thing, except when you're done with a game, there is no way to recoup money and pass the game license on. IIRC, PS4 has yet to confirm that used games will play on the PS4. If there is something newer, then I missed it - there was a comment made earlier, but then rescinded by Sony.

I think maybe some people watched a different PS4 reveal - from some of the creepy comments re: Kinect integration, the Sony Eye may or may not also be required - Sony hasn't revealed that information yet - but it also does face recognition, etc.

The Sony PS4 reveal was unimpressive (to me, at least) and since PS3 sales (at the onset) were significantly boosted because it was the most affordable BD player at the time, I'm not understanding the backlash WRT MS going after the multimedia aspect of a product line that has always been targeting the entire entertainment experience. Yeah, more games. I get that - but from a user perspective, the interface and the benefits seem well thought out.

Conversely, their presentation was lukewarm at best, but that doesn't say anything of the product itself. I think their next task is to funnel all questions through a clear, simple and consistent message. They need to stay away from anything that smells of smoke and mirrors.

They are completely changing the rules of disc-based gaming on consoles, that is why it is a big deal. You are not buying a PC with Steam, you are buying a console, and there are certain expectations there.

And the Steam argument doesn't hold water anyway. Others have put it much better than I could:

Quote

"IT'S JUST LIKE STEAM"

Except the lack of modding.

And the lack of communities that thrive on modding.

And the lack of low prices.

And the lack of control choices.

And the lack of customizable graphics.

And the lack of free online gaming.

And the lack of being able to download demos day one if you don't pay for online gaming.

But other than all of that IT'S JUST LIKE STEAM so why y'all actin' like y'all got a shaft in the aft?

Not all games on Steam are cheap, and not all games have mods, nor do they all have "control choices" or "customizable graphics". Trust me, I know. I have 288 games at the moment. But that is beside the point. My point was that the license behaves like Steam, or as I put it above, the XBLA marketplace FOR YEARS. Except that they have plans to allow you to sell games - but there will be a kickback to the game makers for that transaction.

These points have been confirmed: - If the account holder who owns the license is signed into the console, then their login allows access. - If the console with the original install then it will run for any account on that console.

These have not: - Does the console need to have connectivity to validate? - Does it need to be constantly connected in either scenario to work, or will cached credentials work? - How does XO handle both situations simultaneously eg owner signed in on second console, secondary account on orig.install console fires up game at the same time?

PS4 hasn't even spoken on this subject yet - in fact, they rescinded any clarification and at this time may not even support ANY used gaming.

So clearly, they're the better choice if you want used games.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 04:40:35 AM by Purge »

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"If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners." - Johnny Carson

Not all games on Steam are cheap, and not all games have mods, nor do they all have "control choices" or "customizable graphics". Trust me, I know. I have 288 games at the moment. But that is beside the point. My point was that the license behaves like Steam, or as I put it above, the XBLA marketplace FOR YEARS. Except that they have plans to allow you to sell games - but there will be a kickback to the game makers for that transaction.

These points have been confirmed: - If the account holder who owns the license is signed into the console, then their login allows access. - If the console with the original install then it will run for any account on that console.

These have not: - Does the console need to have connectivity to validate? - Does it need to be constantly connected in either scenario to work, or will cached credentials work? - How does XO handle both situations simultaneously eg owner signed in on second console, secondary account on orig.install console fires up game at the same time?

PS4 hasn't even spoken on this subject yet - in fact, they rescinded any clarification and at this time may not even support ANY used gaming.

So clearly, they're the better choice if you want used games.

I already posted earlier in the thread that there are rumors that Sony will be doing this, and if they do so they will get the same reaction.

There is an established history for physical media and consoles. If either company decides they want to throw it out the window, they have every right, but they should not be surprised if there is backlash.

You keep saying that this is just like Steam and XBLA, but you are completely missing the point. First of all, people understand how XBLA works. This is not XBLA - there are different expectations for physical media. Second, this is not Steam - I could have bought Bioshock Infinite for XBOX for $60 and later sold or traded it to recoup all or part of the purchase price. Instead, I bought it on Steam for $50 and got copies of Bioshock, Darkness 2 and XCOM EU. It was a choice I made and a choice only made possible because retailers understand the difference between buying a game with DRM and buying a physical disc for a console.

Now that I can no longer trade my games, do you think that publishers will drop MSRP to $50 and package games with 2 additional free games? Or have 50% off sales within 3 months of release. I'll answer that for you - no they will not. I understand that copyright infringement issues are your thing but you are looking at this way too academically. It's about business and marketing, not about where the bits are located and the specifics of the EULA.

I think this is both a turning point in consoles, and an inability to grasp why people used to get consoles.

In the past, and even this generation, people got consoles to not deal with this sort of thing. You had your console, you played games on it, and any online connectivity was a plus. You can't blame anyone for disliking the loss of this level of simplicity.

Now that consoles are becoming more like PCs, we're getting all the limits, but only some of the benefits of PCs. Heck, it's using the same hardware as PC, hardware that isn't that expensive right now.

So, about the only benefit of this coming generation is, honestly, the exclusive games for these systems and system stability. Not to mention the first party exclusives.

As I said before, I think the main benefit I'll see from next gen consoles will be stabilizing hardware specs and making fringe PC technologies like tessellation and GPU computing into standards.

So I guess MS has it a little right in that, if consoles are becoming more like PCs, they need to have more features. But I still think a system oriented directly towards games is the best for all us gamers, period. Otherwise, much like how Xbox's dashboard basically pushed games into a dark corner like their arcade titles, we're going to miss out on some really good games because they push us towards TV and movies, which don't really need any help being pushed since they already have their own industries.

I have a PC , 360 and PS3. I mostly game on the PC and am fine with Steam, the reason im fine is while its an online only drm the price i pay is far lower than on the 360 and PS3 even on new releases or after a few weeks the price comes down to a level where a resell is not necessary or even good value.

So when i buy console games at a more expensive price i know i can trade them in later to get some value back,this offsets the higher price against the PC.

The Xbox1 and probably PS4 will not operate on the same mechanic, there will be far less second hand to drive the price down and no value return on the purchase. So taking a chance on a game with a view to if i dont like it i can trade it for a small loss quickly is gone, so no day one sale. Also without a second hand market there is nothing to drive the price down.

On the PC price is driven down by piracy, lots of digital online stores to buy from aggressive sales from those online companies. Sony and MS have a monopoly on digital sales and i find it hard to see how brick and mortar shops are going to survive on low margins so reducing the cost of games wont be at the fore front of there policy adding with no competition on price they will stay higher.

You also have the issue of age, im in my 40's so lending or swapping games is less relevant but many families have 2 or more teenagers with a console each, well now its 1copy for each of them, i can see account sharing becoming more widespread, leading to other issues .

To add it all seemed about the US market, outside in the rest of the world especially Europe there are loads more problems which were ignored. It seems the focus was on the US market and maybe to start with it could be.

The main question I have with the Xbone being the hub and all... how the hell is it going to get these commands to my current hub it cannot replace (my AV receiver). I mean the idea is great I suppose if all you have is a TV and an XBox, but for those of us who power speakers and use a ton of inputs, that ain't reality.

The nearly flawless integration of the wireless Xbox 360 controller on the vast majority of PC games has significantly reduced my use of the Xbox 360, and it will probably kill most of my initial graphics 'wow' factor that most people will get from the initial jump to the new consoles.

my point here is that unless MS gets off their asses and creates some truly unique exclusive IPs, I have no reason to buy an Xbox One, because the 3rd party experience is better on the PC. I'm not tied to the Xbox Live multiplayer ecosystem, so that part holds no value to me. the only piece of the puzzle that was previously missing from the PC experience was that I could not use a mouse and keyboard comfortably in my living room as a control scheme, and a few years ago gaming controller support sucked on the PC. In the past few years developers have made most games play flawlessly with a wireless 360 controller.

Meanwhile, Sony's strong internal development will force me to buy a PS4. I'll never see Uncharted, Killzone, Infamous, God of War, or Ratchet and Clank on a PC, so the PS4 already has a reserved space in my entertainment center.

For me it's all about the games. Netflix, Hulu, Amazon and YouTube are all integrated into my TV already. I don't need to pay MS to be a middleman.

The nearly flawless integration of the wireless Xbox 360 controller on the vast majority of PC games has significantly reduced my use of the Xbox 360, and it will probably kill most of my initial graphics 'wow' factor that most people will get from the initial jump to the new consoles. ...(and other stuff)

Xbox Live (features) require an Internet connection (sync to cloud, license validation, etc). There is nothing revealed indicating the Xbox One will, in all scenarios, require an Internet connection to work. The rest is speculation.

Rather than belabor the speculation and conclusions drawn from partial info reveal - I'm more curious to determine what ports the XO has.

I only see two HDMI ports, (likely) a Kinect port, power, TosLink, power, and in the middle it looks like two USB3 ports. There is supposedly a peripheral for cable providers that don't support this, (according to a tweet I read yesterday), so that may have a dedicated port.

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"If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners." - Johnny Carson

Xbox Live (features) require an Internet connection (sync to cloud, license validation, etc). There is nothing revealed indicating the Xbox One will, in all scenarios, require an Internet connection to work. The rest is speculation.

Rather than belabor the speculation and conclusions drawn from partial info reveal - I'm more curious to determine what ports the XO has.

I only see two HDMI ports, (likely) a Kinect port, power, TosLink, power, and in the middle it looks like two USB3 ports. There is supposedly a peripheral for cable providers that don't support this, (according to a tweet I read yesterday), so that may have a dedicated port.

I did read the whole article - As you can see, its an UPDATE, meaning it wasn't there when I posted.

This generation I own both systems. I loved the PS3 build quality, the Blu Ray player can't be challenged, and it seemed like an entertainment hub. Loved the potential (never realized) being being able to remote connect to it with the PSP.

I loved the Xbox 360 interface (the original one, not the totally idiotic current rendition), the total ease of being able to hook up with friends to play multiplayer games, and the acheivements. I hated the build quality and the fact that most people I know had rings of death at least once.

This new generation looks like I'm going to go PS4 first and play a wait and see on the Xbox One. I hate that they are requiring the connect -- something I'm not interested in. It feels like they are overreaching and trying to grab all the marbles in the living room and do too much for too many instead of focusing on great gaming. Sony, on the other hand, seems to have gotten the message and refocused on GAMING and NOT trying to be everything for everybody. The method by which they solicited programmers and developers in selecting the hardware for the system and everything seems to indicate that they are dedicating themselves to being a gaming system first and foremost.