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First, that AIDSMeds has, through all the occasional drama of the past year, remained a bulwark of support for many many people. Forums change, evolve, go through phases, take on different "complexions" from time to time (sort of like people, come to think of it); these changes are real but can sometimes be exaggerated. But AM's core mission of support -- especially to people who feel geographically isolated like lisbeth and, I might add, myself -- has remained rock solid. Three cheers.

Second, support can come in many forms. Reassurance and hand-holding. Information. Sympathy and condolence. A reminder that you are not alone. A wake-up call that the fight against HIV/AIDS isn't over yet. Memorializing those who have died. Exchanging gossip and trivia. Flirting. Engaging in ribald chat. I even see the putatively pejorative term "HIV Lite" as, in its own way, a good thing. (Which is to say that I think the distinction between "support group" and "social group" to be a false one; they are not mutually exclusive and in fact may be complementary.) All this seems pretty obvious and trite, but I felt like saying it nonetheless. And I've found pretty much all of the above in these forums. So hip hip...

Jay

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Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

You post a statement written by Mike89406, devoid of the context by which it was said or a link to the original thread it was posted, and go off on the person in what will likely have turned into another "roasting" space just like Eldon has been subjected to, and this is just handy dandy?

Well I think it's f-cking bulls-it.

Why this person couldn't have simply been asked for further clairification in a PM or in the original thread, rather than a separate drama-inducing roasting thread is beyond me.

What-ev-a!

Mike89406 welcome to the roasting thread club. We're a growing group and happy to have you aboard! And be thankful you clarified your response before the character assasination and lynching occured.

Some people never cease to amaze...

Mikey

« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 12:03:06 AM by StrongGuy »

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"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

"Beware of the fortune teller doom and gloomers who seek to bring you down and are only looking for company, purpose and validation - not your best physical/mental interests."

"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards

And Mike89406 I read your post which Lis is referring to, in totality and with the clarifications you made, and I fully understand what you are saying.

I hope others do before they comment based on a snip of a post in a roasting thread. It's in SdGirl's thread.

Mikey

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"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

"Beware of the fortune teller doom and gloomers who seek to bring you down and are only looking for company, purpose and validation - not your best physical/mental interests."

"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards

You post a statement written by Mike89406, devoid of the context by which it was said or a link to the original thread it was posted, and go off on the person in what will likely have turned into another "roasting" space just like Eldon has been subjected to, and this is just handy dandy?

Until Mike edited his initial post, which Lis had not yet read, I can see why Lis might make the statement she made. It's fine to say how AIDSmeds has affected you and what you gain from it but Mike's unedited post seemed to say no one needed AIDSmeds for support, for morale or emotional or whatever. Lis was commenting about the statement she read. Even though I would normally have included a link to the original post that's not a strict rule and it's AM etiquette not to hijack a thread with an off-topic comment about someone's post, you should start a new thread in the appropriate place . No one said anything nasty about Mike and after his editing it seems clear he didn't intend to offend anyone (but as a city-dweller I can attest AIDSmeds folks support is needed just as much by me as by someone in Timbukto -- Isolation can be more than a physical state).

I'm trying to disagree with you civilly but, obviously, if you think anything I've written needs a response you don't need my permission to post one. That's part of why we're all here and why many of us stay. Disagreements and occasional (mostly good-natured) sniping make AIDSmeds the exciting place it is!

Boo

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

I just want to say that I agree with Lis with on her feelings about the forum being a support network to her. This forum has been a life line and support network for me, on many different levels. I also don't do support groups, nor have people standing in line to help.. but I have met many wonderful people here that I will never forget.

I too have enjoyed having this place to come and draw strength from...perhaps even offer an encouraging word for others. I didn't read Mike's thread ...don't know which one but the forum (to me) is a very very different place these days. Perhaps as others have said...we will evolve again and the chilly feeling I get when I come here now will be replaced once more with the warmth I once felt/ shared with others.

Why don't we give people the benefit of a doubt. If Mike doesn't need this board as his primary support, that's not a bad thing. Where ever we obtain our support is good, whether it be face-to-face support groups, friends, family, online forums, etc. I personally gain my support from all of the above except for face-to-face support groups; this forum is my support group. Almost as important to me is the socail interaction. I've met quite a few in person at the AMG and do feel a bond with them. I've also met others in person away from the AMG. It's kind of like eating; there's the enjoyment aspect and then there's the biological need for nutrition.

I think Mike's only 'mistake' was using the word 'you' in his sentence "There are support groups with HIV POZ people around the country where you can interact with other POZ people and get real support." If he had said "... where one can interact..." or even better "... where one can often interact...", I doubt we'd even be having this discussion.

His statement obviously hit a nerve with Lis and a few others, which, given their situations and locations, may be understandable. I seriously doubt that was his intention; he was making a statement about himself and a few others, not all members. I think we need to chill, PM or post for clarification if we aren't sure of what somebody meant, and quit making this look like a drama forum to new and potentially new members. I wonder sometimes how many folks we run off with all this bickering. Let's pretend we're talking face-to-face. I imagine most of us would ask 'what did you mean by _____?" before jumping on somebody. Let's extend the same courtesy here and see what happens.

But we are having this discussion, and it isn't always a matter of "chilling out" because disagreement doesn't always mean someone is agitated.

I think Lis has every right to say what she did, as did Mike and I along with everyone who contributed to this thread has their own valid viewpoints - so can we avoid telling people to chill out and take a step back, instead of allowing people to just discuss their feelings on the subject?

You are quite right. By chilling out, I'm referring to the replies of several members, not faulting Lis for commenting on it. I've always respected her and the responses she's made in my posts have always been to the point and polite.

The replies I'm referring to do seem to be by people who are bothered by what is posted, instead of what was meant, and don't bother to find out what was meant. And no, I will not avoid telling/ requesting that people (certain people, not everybody) to chill out and take a step back. Most of us are mature enough to do this on our own. People posting their feelings without regard to how they'll be interpreted or misinterpreted is what causes problems. You, for example, posted the quote above clearly, with a request, just like I made a request. I evidently did not explain what I meant well enough for you to understand what I meant, that's all. Perhaps I should have just said "can we show a bit of kindness and courtesy when we reply to posts". Again, that doesn't apply to everybody who's posted in this thread.

I can honestly say I appreciate everyone's views on the topic. Everyone has their own reasons for coming to this site. I can't respond to how the room use to be because I have only been here since October. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but it seems like most are leaving because of 3 things. A) There is too much drama B) It's not like it use to be or C) because there is more socializing going on then talk of hiv.

Personally, I feel there is always gonna be some type of drama in an atmosphere such as here. Just for the simple fact that people have different opinions all the time, some feel more strongly than others. And some just don't know how to speak their opinions and accept others opinions and let it be.

As for point B, well I can only go by what I'm reading from those that were part of the old forums and what I get is there was more talk of hiv and less socializing? Not being critical but I would like to know how it was before. I guess I combined Band C, sorry about that, my mind is feeling a bit foggy right now.

I can honestly say I appreciate everyone's views on the topic. Everyone has their own reasons for coming to this site. I can't respond to how the room use to be because I have only been here since October. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but it seems like most are leaving because of 3 things. A) There is too much drama B) It's not like it use to be or C) because there is more socializing going on then talk of hiv.

Personally, I feel there is always gonna be some type of drama in an atmosphere such as here. Just for the simple fact that people have different opinions all the time, some feel more strongly than others. And some just don't know how to speak their opinions and accept others opinions and let it be.

As for point B, well I can only go by what I'm reading from those that were part of the old forums and what I get is there was more talk of hiv and less socializing? Not being critical but I would like to know how it was before. I guess I combined Band C, sorry about that, my mind is feeling a bit foggy right now.

What I can say, as a former facilitator in NYC for a gay men's hiv/aids support (drop-in) group is that when done in person, the facilitator is responsible for driving the session, finding the points at which the group goes (perhaps) too far off topic and bringing it back, noting who seems to have been silent and trying to coax a comment out from him, balancing, in my case, the newly diagnosed each meeting with the regulars, the healthy with the (this was the 1980's) very sick and dying. But we don't have that here in the forums. We rely on each other to keep on subject if possible. We are only as good as our posts are, as supportive or non-supportive. If those 'present' are in a flirty mood, the session can pick that up. If those present or some of those present are in a serious or depressed mood, ditto. Yes, we do have moderators, but like a good facilitator, a moderator hangs off to the side as much as possible, allowing the discussion to continue because when a moderator or facilitator posts or comments, unequal weight is applied and the trick is for everyone to feel that his/her voice/comments is equal to anyone else, whether newly diagnosed or a long-term survivor. Win

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Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

And further, Daschund, my expressions of displeasure and what you characterize as my lynching were based on repetitive, cruel, and hostile behaviors bestowed upon others that were sickening to watch. I responded in kind.

Any new person that had a differing opinion was a heretic. I responded forcefully in said threads and via PM and have no regrets with the substance for my arguments (and I apologized to a select few for some of the more heavy-handed statements). Big difference between one new person (Mike89046) saying one thing one time, having it blown out of proportion, and given a separate roasting thread , compared to my behavior. As if anyone here can claim Saint status.

And Iggy, I don't understand what you are trying to say because every post I read from you lately (as your new sig line stresses and you continually point out) is about your perceptions of the community's so-called new found culture.

Iggy no one is creating posts as some fake prozac-laden world, but are expressing what they want and feel. Why you and your new BFF Moffie don't just create threads that facilitate the kind of discussion you seek to promote, rather than mention your disgust with this so-called new culture that doesn't fit in with your mood or what you feel this place should be, is beyond me.

It's a support forum. Lift people up. Hold them up. Many ways to do that. It's also a discussion forum, with tertiary issues stemming from HIV that come up and are discussed.

You need a different way, then create a thread to facilitate that. Everyone's free to speak and whether you like it or not. HIV experiences are diverse.

Iggy no one is going to stop you or criticize you(unlike what many new people encountered here not so long ago). Your story reminds me a lot of mine. I have a lot of respect for you, even if we are at differnet places. But I really am not sure what you mission is and how your same argument which keeps popping up (and now contorted to fit in this thread) is going accomplish.

Ciao!!!!Mikey

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"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

"Beware of the fortune teller doom and gloomers who seek to bring you down and are only looking for company, purpose and validation - not your best physical/mental interests."

"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards

To clarify (not to incite retaliation): The disturbing second sentence of Iggy's signature line was partly what I was referring and responding to in my post (#2).

Jay

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Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

It is amazing isn't it Daschund. Almost as amazing as your reflexive, monotonous, defense of your favorites with one line convoluted statements day in and day out. You see what you want to see even when you live in the same pit. Perception is a wonderous thing.

Ciao!Mikey

« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 04:14:47 PM by StrongGuy »

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"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

"Beware of the fortune teller doom and gloomers who seek to bring you down and are only looking for company, purpose and validation - not your best physical/mental interests."

"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards

All I would ask is why you feel the need to dig or put down Iggy with the BFF Moffie reference? I found it mean spirited. I am sorry if you find the defense of a friend less than honorable. Look I will be out of town tomorrow so I will go ahead and use this today...it's kid of cute and terribly monotonous.

Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here? That depends a good deal on where you want to get to. I don't know where... Then it doesn't matter which way you go.

This forum serves it's purpose with all the diversity different people get they're support from different things. The forum has been helpful to me in ways different than others. I get a lot of info that I may of not known elsewhere,

However When I was diagnosed until 2 yrs in to my status I had no outlet I had the occasional group meetings that I attended when I did my labs every 6 mos. Me and my wife went hrough some hard times. She and my daughter are negative but as a family we banded together and become educated as much as possible.

The support I got from groups helped me and my wife deal with life and I learned to be optimistic eventually on my own. I still like the groups however withme and my wife working and college I'm extremely busy so I dont get much time to go.

Another issue was my wife being Neg its very hard to find someone else that can relate to her and deal with her stress of me being POZ and other health issues I've had.

The groups serve they're purpose as well because you can put a face with another person that has HIV/AIDS it helped me enormously as the 10-20+ yr vets could educate me and others. We had functions in the 2 different groups I was a part of brought us together and made it more emotional support.Now there are different stlyes of groups sometimes some loose some rigid. There was lot lot more things they provided but you see the point.

If you ever been to a HIV support group you may know what Im talking about, you may or may not find as much support there I dont know everyones different

The point being if this is #1 source of support then great its a good place to be and also if you're new demograhics dont allow other resources to you or other reasons not mentioned.

I dont feel that I did anything wrong other than not double checking my post at first. I did clarify myself afterwards it should be self explanatory. Hopefully there are no hard feelings

Daschy considering you are part of the Acid Tongue EntourageTM, and defend biting remarks consistently and reflexively from within, I find your faux outrage of a rather benign BFF remark quite ironic -- and highly inconsistent.

Loved the pseudo-Haiku. Not a clue what it meant, but it sure sounded per-ty.

kisses (and hugs)Mikey

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"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

"Beware of the fortune teller doom and gloomers who seek to bring you down and are only looking for company, purpose and validation - not your best physical/mental interests."

"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards

I just wrote what I thought was a well-thought out and spell checked post about all this...only to have it vanish into thin air. That has happened to me more than once on here.

The benefit for all of you is that this new version will be quite streamlined. Perhaps it was God or fate's way of telling me to edit my post.

Reader's Digest Version:

1. Mike, you already corrected and apoligized way up at the top of this thread. You're fine. No worries. This is now a rehash of previous arguments from before you posted or this thread existed.

2. I am glad Iggy brought up his argument again because I understood him better this time around. That said, I still agree with StrongGuy's point that, rather than gripe about how much you dislike what is being posted these days, type out your own posts and broaden the range of what is being discussed here. Be the change you seek...because ears are likely more open than you think they are. While I think I am fairly established as a part of the AM Social Set, I am more than willing to discuss the more somber topics as well. I may not start a PML thread because I haven't experienced it. That doesn't mean I am not open to talking about it, or at least readily listen and learn. The tone toward those who discuss other things came off just as dismissive as what you seem to be saying you get from them...at least the last time you brought it up. Not so much this go around. I'm glad for that because that was kind of an unresolved discussion for me from the 'miserable people' thread. Happier to have a bit more understanding of it. EDITED TO SAY: As a case in point, I think Iggy's post #13 would (with very little adjustment) make a firm foundation for its own thread instead of being positioned within other threads. It works peripherally in these threads...would stand great as the basis of its own.

3. Like my old Mass Media Law professor used to say: The answer to speech you don't like isn't silencing, it is more speech. I have actively sought out conversation with the heavy hitters on here that so many people grumble about. Consequently, I have had some GREAT discussions with Moffie, Matty the Damned, jack and Eldon...just to name a few of the more notorious names of the bunch. Those probably aren't among the most likely names you might associate with me. Just goes to show that there's a deeper well to be tapped. You just got to dig a little to get the flow started.

Tim

PS- Yes, this is actually a SHORTER version. You should feel quite relieved!

I should never have posted this thread.... PLEASE... let it die... we are all here for our own reasons... I get it...

I have to agree, this thread should die. Those that were gonna say anything has posted and from some of the posts I see, it looks as though it is getting ugly, which seems to be the case lately. Can the mods lock this thread, please.

I just wrote what I thought was a well-thought out and spell checked post about all this...only to have it vanish into thin air. That has happened to me more than once on here.

Tim little trick I learned here in Vietnam.. always highlight and copy as you go along! If that tricky little post disappears faster than a Vietcong in the Mekong Delta.... just paste it back where you want it.

Sorry, Annie, but until you've been on the receiving end of one of these wonderful "created to pick at you which will ultimately character assasinate you" chopping block threads, as so many have been lucky to be placed on lately, I don't think you can fully understand that the drama in these threads start with the originator.

In any event, as long as I didn't have to sit back and watch one more newbie get decimated, disrespected beyond the initial statement, and pummeled into oblivion because of outrage over one out-of-context statement, I'll take the heat as usual. I'm used to it by now.

laters,Mikey

« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 05:13:47 AM by StrongGuy »

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"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

"Beware of the fortune teller doom and gloomers who seek to bring you down and are only looking for company, purpose and validation - not your best physical/mental interests."

"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards

For me this thread has worked a way through stuff for a number of people and even when the temperature rose a bit, it's remained civilized. Several have talked clearly about where they have been and where they're at. That's a good thing. I don't see that we can have the kind of intimacy which this setting offers without sometimes having misunderstandings and feathers and other getting ruffled.

And yes, it is good to hear from Lis again. Thanks for speaking up and for being willing and able to hear what others have had to say, Lis. Way to go!

It means a whole lot to me to read how much you all get out of being here. I'm happy I began the morning with reading this thread.

Forget the onion rings, it's 70 degrees out in January -- it's time to pull out the BBQ. The poor polar bears.

Mikey

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"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

"Beware of the fortune teller doom and gloomers who seek to bring you down and are only looking for company, purpose and validation - not your best physical/mental interests."

"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards