[ad#post_ad]GM has just released the detail of the Voltec-powered crossover it is unveiling in Beijing China.

It is called the Volt MPV concept and is a five-person multi-purpose vehicle that will be powered by the same extended range electric car powertrain the Volt sedan will use.

Its design is based on the Volt including the closed grille. It also has rocker claddings, creased tail lamps and specially designed blades on the rear quarter, all to improve aerodynamics.

“The Volt MPV5 concept takes the efficient design of the Chevrolet Volt and adapts it to the family vehicle crossover segment. It’s immediately recognizable as a true member of the Chevrolet family,” said Bob Boniface, who is now apparently Director of GM North America Crossover Exterior Design

The same T-shaped 16 kwh lithium ion battery and 1.4 L 4 cylinder generator is used, but in this configuration only has an EV range of 32 miles, with an additional 300 miles of gas range on a full tank.

The rear seat seats three and also folds down for increased cargo storage, and the interior design and center stack are the same as is found in the Volt.

“The Volt MPV5 concept demonstrates the flexibility of the Voltec propulsion system, which can produce enough electric power to propel a range of vehicles. from a compact sedan like the Volt to a crossover like the Volt MPV5 concept,” said Doug Parks, Global Vehicle Line Executive and Global Vehicle Chief Engineer for Electric Vehicles at GM.

GM appears to believe the concept is geared toward the Chinese market. No word on production intention at this point.

Beijing – Chevrolet has made a major commitment to providing world-class, fuel-efficient vehicles to its customers around the world. In recent months, through GM’s Shanghai GM joint venture, Chevrolet has introduced the fuel-efficient Cruze and New Sail in China. It will introduce the Volt electric vehicle with extended range capability in 2011.

In preparation for the Volt’s arrival, Chevrolet is leveraging Auto China 2010, which starts today in Beijing, to introduce the Volt MPV5 electric concept. The five-passenger multi-purpose crossover concept demonstrates the potential of the Voltec propulsion system by utilizing the same foundation as the Volt, for gas- and tailpipe emissions-free electric driving.

Maximizing Efficiency and Style

The styling of the Volt MPV5 concept borrows design and aerodynamic cues from the Chevrolet Volt. The front fascia is among the most aerodynamic of any crossover thanks to its closed grille and aero-optimized lower air dam, both of which help improve fuel efficiency. A full-underbody belly pan, along with rocker claddings, creased tail lamps and specially designed blades on the rear quarter, also help the Volt MPV5 concept cut through the wind with ease. The intense focus on improved aerodynamics enables greater all-electric range.

“The Volt MPV5 concept takes the efficient design of the Chevrolet Volt and adapts it to the family vehicle crossover segment. It’s immediately recognizable as a true member of the Chevrolet family,” said Bob Boniface, Director of GM North America Crossover Exterior Design, whose team worked in conjunction with members of GM’s design studio in Australia on the Volt MPV5 concept.

The Volt MPV5 concept’s dimensions provide added passenger comfort. While the 2,760-mm wheelbase of the Volt MPV5 concept is a mere 15 mm longer than the wheelbase of the Chevrolet Volt, its body is 181 mm longer (4,585 mm), 73 mm wider (1,871 mm) and 182 mm taller (1,612 mm) than the Volt.

Inside, the Volt MPV5 concept adopts the Volt’s center stack and gauge cluster along with its striking two-tone leather seats. Thanks to the Volt MPV5 concept’s size, passenger comfort doesn’t take a backseat. Typical for Chevrolet crossovers, the Volt MPV5 concept’s seating position allows for maximum comfort and flexibility, including improved entry and egress.

When it comes to cargo, the Volt MPV5 concept carries on the crossover tradition thanks to its flip-and-fold second row seating, which provides up to 1,764.1 liters of cargo space with the seats folded and 863.7 liters of space behind the second row.

Voltec Power Boosts Green Credentials

The Volt MPV5 concept utilizes the same Voltec propulsion system found in the Chevrolet Volt, including the added capability of an engine generator to extend the driving range and eliminate “range anxiety.” A 16-kWh T-shaped lithium-ion battery pack powers the electric drive unit.

The flexibility of the Voltec system enables the Volt MPV5 concept to meet full vehicle speed and acceleration requirements while driving the vehicle and its five occupants up to 51.5 km on pure electric propulsion. This is double what the average urban commuter in China travels each day. When the battery is depleted, a 1.4-liter engine generator sustains the battery charge and provides up to 482 km of electric propulsion.

“The Volt MPV5 concept demonstrates the flexibility of the Voltec propulsion system, which can produce enough electric power to propel a range of vehicles. from a compact sedan like the Volt to a crossover like the Volt MPV5 concept,” said Doug Parks, Global Vehicle Line Executive and Global Vehicle Chief Engineer for Electric Vehicles at GM.

“Rapidly growing demand for personal transportation across China is creating new environmental and energy security challenges,” said Kevin Wale, President and Managing Director of the GM China Group. “GM is committed to finding and adopting solutions, which include the electrification of the automobile. The world premiere of the Volt MPV5 concept in Beijing demonstrates GM’s desire to make China a global focus of its advanced technology strategy.”

GM continues to advance electrification in China through research and development. It has launched the China Automotive Energy Research Center (CAERC) in Beijing. The venture with SAIC and Tsinghua University is developing a comprehensive automotive energy strategy for China. The GM China Science Lab, which opened last November, is carrying out advanced automotive-related research, including battery development. In March, GM introduced the EN-V (Electric Networked-Vehicle) concepts in Shanghai. A centerpiece of the SAIC-GM Pavilion at World Expo 2010 Shanghai, EN-V embodies GM’s vision for personal urban mobility in 2030. In addition, GM is supporting its Shanghai GM joint venture’s “Drive to Green” strategy, which is focused on developing green products, supporting green manufacturing and undertaking a green responsibility.

General Motors, one of the world’s largest automakers, traces its roots back to 1908. With its global headquarters in Detroit, GM employs 204,000 people in every major region of the world and does business in some 140 countries. GM and its strategic partners produce cars and trucks in 34 countries, and sell and service these vehicles through the following brands: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, GM Daewoo, Holden, Jiefang, Opel, Vauxhall and Wuling. GM is the joint global automobile partner of World Expo 2010 Shanghai along with Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation Group (SAIC). More information on the new General Motors can be found at HYPERLINK “http://www.gm.com” \t “_blank”www.gm.com.

Performance
Top speed (kph): 160 (100 mph)
EV range (city in km): up to 51.5 (32 mi) based on EPA city cycle
actual mileage may vary depending on driving habits/conditions, weather and battery age
Extended range: 482 km (300 mi) on a full tank of gasoline

This entry was posted on Thursday, April 22nd, 2010 at 11:42 am and is filed under New Car, Voltec. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 212

1

+25

KirkN Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:48 am)

Love it!!! Kinda looks like the Equniox which is really nice. This will really help the drivers that need more seating than the Volt!!

2

+16

Ray Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:53 am)

I Want one !!

So I get the Volt in 2014 and the Volt MPV5 in 2016 ?

Now let’s get GM to Deliver !!

3

+18

Jim in PA Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:53 am)

GM just made the coolest station wagon ever. Ahem, I’m sorry, I meant “MPV”. Very cool indeed. I hope they make the interior as highly functional as the Vibe. If they do, and this thing is under $30,000 with the Govt rebate, look for this car to outsell the Volt. Losing 8 miles of AER is a small price to pay for the huge increase in space and function (I say this as a father. If this were 10 years ago I’d pick the Volt).

4

+5

Crazycanuck Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:54 am)

Looks good, better then some MPV’s. Now all they need is a volt coupe.

5

Mike-o-Matic Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:55 am)

Aw geez, I just posted about ABG’s coverage of this, in the gm-volt forum!

OK, this really looks nice. Hope my the time, I can buy my VOLT I’ll have a option between this MPV and the sedan.

7

+3

ziv Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:55 am)

Wow! That is two two post days in a row! Lyle is going to have to quit his day job! “No word on production intention”, man I hope they do build this thing! My RAV4 better behave itself or I will dump it in a heartbeat for this beauty! OK, beauty is in the eye of the beholder… Like I said on the other EESTOR article, two Voltec models means that the $7500 tax credit lasts twice as long!

ziv: Like I said on the other EESTOR article, two Voltec models means that the $7500 tax credit lasts twice as long!

I thought the $7500 allocation had a limit per manufacturer, not per model?

10

-1

Pat Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:59 am)

This would be much better for my family of 5. I’m just disppointed to see the mileage drop to 32 (I was hoping they would be increasing the Volt’s 40 in future concepts). I can understand that this is a larger vehicle and will need more power, in general, but when you drop to 32, the cost/benefit equation gets even harder to justify (I have to imagine the price will also be higher than Volt). Of course, you also can no longer make the arguement that a 4-cyl small car is a better cost/benefit solution, but comparing to say, Mazda 5, it’s still quite a gap. Still, glad to see the platform being extended. I’m confident things will only get better.

11

+3

TheLivense Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:59 am)

Now this is more like it! It would be the perfect replacement for my Hyundai Elantra hatchback. They better bring this to the US and seems like it should only take a year or so since so much of the tech is shared.

If they round out the family with a nice sporty coupe (like the Converj initially was) then it would be perfect!

12

+25

Tom M Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:00 pm)

“The concept appears geared toward the Chinese market. No word on production intention at this point.”

Geared towards the Chinese market? WTF? What would be the reasoning not offer this to the US?

I’d buy one for sure.

13

+2

Jim in PA Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:01 pm)

Campy: I’ll be honest – like the idea but that design is HIDEOUS!
Looks like this

The only similarilty I see with the HRR is one that is driven by functionality; the flared out rear wheel wells that provide extra width in the rear cargo area. And that’s a great feature… sometimes form has to follow function.

14

+22

Phil Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:02 pm)

Me likey. Please make and sell this GM!

15

+6

Jim in PA Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:03 pm)

Tom M: Geared towards the Chinese market? WTF? What would be the reasoning not offer this to the US?

Fear not. It’s being announced in China today just because the Beijing Auto Show is going on right now. I’m sure it’s just a matter of timing it for maximum press exposure. Plus, there is the added value of slapping BYD in the face in their own backyard. Besides, if this was directed at the Chinese market, would the digital display screen be showing English words?

16

+7

koz Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:08 pm)

Similar designs (Matrix, rip Vibe, Versa, etc.) have sold well here. I cannot express how strongly I believe this type of design will have even more “in market segment” appeal than the Volt. It is comparable to 28mpg combined vehicles and can fit more family and stuff than the Prius and the Volt.

GM: BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME

Back to reality. This is only shown as a concept. As a de-facto share holder, I am only interested in production versions of Voltec. Anything less is greenwashing, IMO.

17

+9

Alan Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:09 pm)

I think the design is fantastic. I will echo others’ sentiments and urge GM to put this into production quickly.

As a Mini-E driver With 14,000 miles powered only by sunshine, I have posted that my dream garage is a Mini-E and a Voltec SUV. a Voltec MPV is close enough!

Both my wife and I have predictable commutes of 20 miles rt and 40 miles rt, and the BEV car has fit perfectly into our lives. Our other car at the moment is a Ford Escape. The Escape is our two or three trips a year long haul vehicle and pack mule.

I would think that a Bev/Voltec combo in a garage would work for the majority of two car families and reduce our oil use and emmisions by 90-95%. As an example, most of our driving would fit in the 32 mile electric range of the Voltec thus a sparing use of fuel.

On this earth day, thanks to GM and wise use of advancing technology, I truly believe that we can get rid of our drug…opps…energy dependency issues and once again become the independent country our forefathers imagined, cleaner and wealthier as bonuses.

GM you guys are making me happy, optimistic and proud!

Cheers!

Peder

19

+6

LauraM Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:11 pm)

Tom M: Geared towards the Chinese market? WTF? What would be the reasoning not offer this to the US?

I’d buy one for sure.

It might be a lot harder to build it meeting North American safety standards. I would assume that Chinese cars are a lot lighter without the extra safety precautions. So they can be bigger and yet more efficient.

That said, the pessimist in me can’t help worrying that North America is losing influence even as a marketplace.

Forget the Volt – I’m in for this MPV for my family of 4. The slightly larger size and higher profile fit my wife’s needs much more than the low slung Volt.

Here’s hoping these vehicles actually make it to the showroom and my garage.

22

+2

koz Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:16 pm)

Pat: This would be much better for my family of 5. I’m just disppointed to see the mileage drop to 32 (I was hoping they would be increasing the Volt’s 40 in future concepts). I can understand that this is a larger vehicle and will need more power, in general, but when you drop to 32, the cost/benefit equation gets even harder to justify (I have to imagine the price will also be higher than Volt). Of course, you also can no longer make the arguement that a 4-cyl small car is a better cost/benefit solution, but comparing to say, Mazda 5, it’s still quite a gap. Still, glad to see the platform being extended. I’m confident things will only get better. (Quote)

How is it harder to justify? Only if you compare it to a Prius but then you should be looking at a Volt. This compares vehicle is comparable to a Matrix, Vibe, Versa, etc. Those vehicles are about 28mpg combined. 32AER also translates to 40 MPG in CS mode. I think this MPV compares signicantly better on a total cost of ownership basis to those vehicles than the Volt does to the Prius.

23

+9

Joe Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:16 pm)

I want two please. The sooner the better !!! This could be the game changer is done correctly.

24

+6

Larry Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:19 pm)

Given the choice and similar prices – I would prefer this to the Volt. I like the ability to carry something large occasionally.

25

+8

Ken Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:21 pm)

I like this even better than the Volt… as a father still with 2 littler ones and the owner of a 100 lb dog this would work MUCH better for me. Certainly hope this is offered in the US soon.

I hope I can order a Volt with the increased power profile of the MPV. Or maybe they will sell those as a Volt SS version.

27

+3

Starcast Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:32 pm)

A Volt HHR that’s what I see. I like it!

28

+7

Dave G Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:39 pm)

I want one!

29

+5

Nelson Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:41 pm)

Chinese market??????? That’s crazy.

It would look great parked next to my Volt!

NPNS!

30

+2

steel Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:41 pm)

I like the idea.

I swore to myself year ago that my next car would be 40 HWY and 40 Cubic feet of near flat cargo space. This car actually has the ability to go 40 Combined, 32 AER and 40+ Cubic Feet Flat (starts with a minimum 30)

I had hoped the Volt with folded seats would approach 35 or so… but no longer have to hope for that

Well, I hate to say it but is about as sharp as a prius! We’ve gone from a killer volt concept concept, to a mediocre volt production, and finally to a rolling turd looking volt crossover.

It’s getting really hard for me to stay excited with the Volt or GM these days… I love the concept of an electric drive with gas range extender, but cant they make it look as good as what’s underneath the shell?

PS – All those that comment back telling me how wrong I am know I am right, you’re just too drunk on the volt coolaid to say so.

38

+6

James Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:49 pm)

“The concept appears geared toward the Chinese market. No word on production intention at this point.”

This has to be a misconception of the author. Lyle, this vehicle places a new conundrum in my purchasing plans, as it is THE ONE I would purchase first and foremost due to it’s SEATING CAPACITY OF 5 vs. 4, and it’s slightly larger cargo capacity.————– THIS IS THE VEHICLE I have been saying GM should have produced first, since the beginning.—————–

Beijing seems an appropriate place to introduce the concept due to China’s prolific lithium battery industry, and a large emerging market for GM. I certainly don’t agree with GM throwing funds into and partnering with CHINA for research and supply of batterys! China being our largest trade partner ( groan ) but definately not one of our allies. I would rather hear GM chooses an American battery innovator (A123…) or even a Korean or Japanese firm over a Chinese one. Have we not spent enough of our money in this Communist country ( and sold our soul to them in loan interest alone? ).

If, in fact, this MPV5 Voltec is indeed being developed ONLY for the Chinese market, it would be absolutely the MOST ABSURD thing I have ever heard!

That said, THIS IS THE MOST EXCITING EREV VEHICLE ON THE PLANET! I would place my deposit this afternoon. This is what we have hoped Voltec would turn into – a vehicle the masses can get behind due to it’s versatility and usage as the ONLY FAMILY CAR in a household.

I am part Chinese/Hawaiian. I demand to be moved to the head of the line for this one!

41

+3

Sasparilla Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:54 pm)

I love it, GM would sell a ton of them if they made a ton of them (just like the Volt). The utility of the design is awesome – love the 5th seat there (I wonder if its anticipating getting away from the T shaped pack design or just lifted enough to get over it?).

I’d love it even more if GM said they were putting this into production and telling us they’d make alot of them (say an additional 60k or more of them a year) soon. Wish they’d said they were rolling this out with the Volt at the end of the year. 😉

So, its a concept….if they decided this summer to go forward ASAP with it, how soon could they actually put one for sale? 2013? 2014? 2015?

42

+1

PeteVE Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:56 pm)

i can see this for my wife (when this comes out she will be) and a BEV for me in my driveway in the next few yrs. this is perfect for the first car and a BEV as the second. i wanted the truck, but as this is first, i’m game for this.

make it and you will be gaining market share for sure.

and btw, i know it was said that the truck won’t come. the truck we are looking for isn’t one that can tow 6000 lbs. just a small cool looking thing like the Denali XT or Toyota ABAT or Honda Ridgeline. towing isn’t everything when wanting a truck.

43

Sasparilla Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (12:59 pm)

Nelson: I Love that color!Off topic is anyone having problems opening heavy commented posts like :
Apr
20Are you Reserving a Nissan LEAF Today?
That has 293 Comments.Is there a trick to limit the amount of data IE8 tries to open?NPNS!

I hope GM didn’t Osbourne themselves with this announcement! The original Volt might be good for fleets and people who want the cheapest eco car, but this seems to have mass-market appeal.

The benefit to GM at this point is as battery generations improve (2nd gen in late 2013, 3rd in late 2016) they can just keep making slightly varied battery packs – 12, 16, 20kWh – upgrade the ICE and electric motor, etc, and build larger vehicles around the Voltec platform. The hard work is just about done with getting the first one launched. Things should be comparatively easy from here on out!

45

+7

James Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:05 pm)

Observation: It’s food for thought that these concept drawings of the interior of the Voltec MPV5 seem to have been done quite awhile ago. Notice the console/shifter and HVAC vents are those of the show Volt, not the current pre-production version of Volt now on the roads and display circuit.

Hmmm…This tells us that the MPV5 has been on GM’s to-do list for quite some time. Hopefully, it’s on the fast track, and scheduled for production earlier than we might imagine.

Show a version of this SUV/Crossover at any AMERICAN auto show, and you’ll create a huge stir!

I AM REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THIS CAR! ~ Can you tell?

RECHARGE! James

IF YOU BUILD ——- THE MPV5 ——- THEY WILL COME!

46

Dale Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:05 pm)

Liked the SRX voltec concept a whole lot more (all wheel drive and better looking vehicle) even though the all electric range was sacrificed. If I want all electric range, the volt will be my car. Give me a plug-in equinox instead. More versatility to tow, all wheel drive, etc.

47

Jim I Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:07 pm)

It is OK, but I would rather have the Volt.

Actually, I would really like a two seater sports car version of the Volt. My days of hauling kids around are over…..

Or my third choice would be if they took the Volt, and cut off the back end and put a small pickup bed on it, like my old 1982 Dodge Rampage.

But I will likely buy whatever EREV model is available in Ohio first!!!!

Have plug and deposit – Ready for EREV!

48

+1

Jose Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:08 pm)

I hope this comes in 4wd. In any case, I hope someone makes a 4wd Range-extended EV.

49

+4

Jim in PA Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:08 pm)

Toby: It’s getting really hard for me to stay excited with the Volt or GM these days… I love the concept of an electric drive with gas range extender, but cant they make it look as good as what’s underneath the shell?

Most people won’t buy a truly unique looking vehicle like the Volt concept. What excites me is any design that maximizes the sale of these cars; and I think GM hit the nail on the head with the production Volt and the concept MPV.

50

+5

Jim Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:09 pm)

I want it, I Want It, I WANT IT!!! I currently drive a Pontiac Vibe, and the utility and economy of a small (by U.S. market standards) 2-box design is the best of both worlds. For example, I was able to move all of the furniture into my daughter’s new apartment, and I still get over 30mpg. If I could go gas-free, that would be better than words can describe!

GM – MAKE THIS FOR THE U.S. MARKET.

ASAP!!! (My Vibe is over 7 years old!)

51

+1

Jim in PA Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:10 pm)

Jim I: Or my third choice would be if they took the Volt, and cut off the back end and put a small pickup bed on it, like my old 1982 Dodge Rampage.

Why do you need someone else to do your dirty work for you, sissy? Go buy a Sawzall at Home Depot and get to work! 😉

52

+4

Loboc Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:16 pm)

Lol. So the EEstor post was just a time sink until you got this one ready?

I love this concept. Put me on the other list and keep me on the Volt list as well!

So, it’s called “Volt MPV5″. Does this mean that GM might spin Volt off into a new product line separate from Chevrolet? Interesting name.

Hmm, I find it hard to get excited, it’s just a regular Volt with a few more cubic feet of interior “bolted on”. It would be interesting to see the exact increase in cubic feet though. Also interesting how the shape change lowered the electric range that much. Proves that aero matters!

54

+2

Sasparilla Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:17 pm)

Is this a physical concept car (I just assumed it was) or a computer generated image?

After looking at the images for a while I’m getting the feeling its just a computer model – the light/shadows don’t look right in different areas of the vehicle.

55

+4

James Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:18 pm)

Observation #2: Hope GM restyles the rearview mirrors to a more aero design. Those look like they could lose the car .5 to 1 mpg!

GM: Slant the filled-in grill and headlights 2 degrees or so – more – People will adjust and the mileage will improve.

I disagree with LauraM’s ponderings that weight/safety issues may lie at the bottom of a China release vs. North America. More likely, it would be cost. Since the Volt is an expensive proposition, this vehicle stands only to be more expensive to produce. It would hint that GM is planning a Chinese production facility for the MPV5.

OH THE HORROR!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on GM —- GET WITH THE PROGRAM!

Also, those complaining about the 32 mile AER. HELLO?!!! Look at the utility this vehicle offers over a FOUR SEATER Volt. Look at the expanded market that ONE SEAT, plus the public’s favorable impression of SUV/MPV format vehicles, provides. You complain about 8 miles AER in A VEHICLE THAT COULD ESTABLISH EREV as the standard everyone else has to shoot for!

I notice two items of interest shown by the interior side view. First, there is indeed a rear center seating position head rest & fold-down armrest. That must mean the battery will either be shortened, or its rear 1/3rd will be relocated entirely under the (slightly wider) rear seat —or both. Also, if you look closely, there is an open storage bin behind the shifter in the front console that passes all the way thru from the passenger’s side to the driver’s side.

PS to my post #56: The two skylight panels extend across most of the passenger compartment and are divided by a ceiling console —maybe this is where the remaining 1/3rd of the battery is located?

58

+1

Schmeltz Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:33 pm)

I like it. It is a nice design that appears to be able to seat 5 people comfortably. This would sell in the U.S. if offered.

But…

To beat a very dead horse, I’m puzzled that the Cadillac Converj was killed and this vehicle is looking pretty assuredly at getting the green light? I mean, the main logic behind killing the Converj was the diminished range and all…Well, 32 mile electric range is fine and acceptable here? I’m just still really disappointed the Converj was shelved–it still seems like a very good idea that could have worked profitably for GM. Alas, I can still dream I guess.

59

+10

jeffhre Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:37 pm)

RogerE333: Hmm, I find it hard to get excited, it’s just a regular Volt with a few more cubic feet of interior “bolted on”. It would be interesting to see the exact increase in cubic feet though. Also interesting how the shape change lowered the electric range that much. Proves that aero matters! (Quote)

Just another Volt, “with a few more cubic..? Umm, bottom line, there is no such thing as a Volt until October. Or did we already miss the opportunity to hang a banner proclaiming mission accomplished? Added to this, I’d like to see a Volt coupe, Volt SS, and Volt Sport Microtruck.

With a Volt coupe and a Volt MPV in the driveway, I wouldn’t have to have another car conversation until 2022.

Oh and…appy oirf day ereyboddy!

60

+5

Eliezer Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:37 pm)

Wow… that MPV is a sexy beast — especially from the side and rear 3/4 view.

If it can really produce the same numbers advertised for the Volt sedan… it is going to crush the (non-existent) competition.

The question isn’t if it comes to the U.S., but when. GM would be crazy not to bring it stateside.

MPV5 = Magnificently Practical Vehicle — 5 Stars

61

+3

efusco Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:44 pm)

This, at least, can be used by a family…making it worthy of consideration.

62

jeffhre Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:48 pm)

Driving an electric car isn’t as dramatic a statement, but accomplishes two of the following…

63

+2

Zachary Taylor (Jackson) Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:48 pm)

Tom M: “The concept appears geared toward the Chinese market. No word on production intention at this point.”Geared towards the Chinese market? WTF? What would be the reasoning not offer this to the US?
I’d buy one for sure.

“The Volt MPV5 concept takes the efficient design of the Chevrolet Volt and adapts it to the family vehicle crossover segment. It’s immediately recognizable as a true member of the Chevrolet family,” said Bob Boniface, who is now apparently Director of GM North America Crossover Exterior Design”

There is an auto show in Beijing right now. If this concept “appears geared toward the Chinese market,” why is Bob Boniface now “apparently Director of GM North America Crossover Exterior Design?”

64

+1

Eliezer Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:49 pm)

I think the Converj was put on hold because it’s too small to hold a massive battery, motor and generator that would allow it to compete with Fisker and Tesla.

The Tesla Roadster is small, but it doesn’t have to worry about fitting in a gas generator.
The Fisker Karma is an EREV, but it’s larger and has the space for high-performance EREV components.

Just my opinion… I’m sure we’ll see the Converj later on, but for now the Volt and future MPV5 will keep us busy.

65

+6

Zachary Taylor (Jackson) Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:57 pm)

While I am a sucker for a good hatchback (yeah, I know; but a CUV is basically a large hatchback — admit it), I don’t have kids or a large dog; and I’d be inclined to go for maximum all electric range. Volt me, please. I’m still happy to see an offering which will appeal to many more buyers than just the small sedan.

In order to better judge it’s potential impact, I would still like to see it’s actual cost verses the Volt (when possible), and would like to know when / where it will be manufactured.

Toby: Well, I hate to say it but is about as sharp as a prius! We’ve gone from a killer volt concept concept, to a mediocre volt production, and finally to a rolling turd looking volt crossover.

The measure of having reached mainstream status is when you don’t have to make your new technology automobile look like a UFO in order to garner interest.

66

+7

Jeffery Haas Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (1:57 pm)

Attention GENERAL MOTORS!!!
We need this vehicle in the United States of America!

Oh My God! That is the Ugliest Vehicle I have every Seen! A coupe might look better but not an MPV. If GM wants to make a nice looking vehicle to compliment the Volt. Look at making an SUV instead!

69

+4

Zachary Taylor (Jackson) Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:03 pm)

Duncan: Oh My God!That is the Ugliest Vehicle I have every Seen!A coupe might look better but not an MPV. If GM wants to make a nice looking vehicle to compliment the Volt. Look at making an SUV instead!

Don’t be a Yo-yo, Duncan.

We’ve just heard this week that a larger Voltec vehicle is not in the cards for at least the next several years, due to the limitations of current battery technology. Another Volt-like platform is a good indication that GM is committed to Voltec in spite of this.

Loboc: Lol. So the EEstor post was just a time sink until you got this one ready?I love this concept. Put me on the other list and keep me on the Volt list as well!So, it’s called “Volt MPV5″. Does this mean that GM might spin Volt off into a new product line separate from Chevrolet? Interesting name.Volt
Volt MPV5
Volt CUV (Vue?)
Volt P/U (S-5?)
Volt Wagon
Volt El Camino
and…
Volt SS. White pearl with tan leather please!!

I agree with you about the name… Some 20 years ago I used to sell Mazdas, and they had the Mazda MPV Minivan. Not good to copy them.

geez, why don’t you guys put the damn car on the market already before you worry about coming out with crossover models, and SUVs, etc. you’ve had us waiting for years and you STILL don’t have any produced to sell. you don’t even have a price on it, just rumors of a price that’s going to make it too expensive for the average buyer ANYHOW! you’re setting it up to fail and that does a disservice to consumers nationwide.

72

+1

Baltimore17 Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:16 pm)

Nice design. Got rid of the black window sills. Rationalized the aux lighting at the lower front corners by filling in the space with lights rather than half lights, half bumper cladding. Straightened out the rocker panels around the front edge of the driver’s door.

The lighted rear view mirrors won’t make it to production. The windshield washer jets will crop up on the hood.

Is the charging port on the rear fender, or is that the gasoline filler? Putting the charge port on the rear fender would put the charger right under most garage door mechanisms, precluding a ceiling mount. Hey, it’s just a concept.

I like the looks. I like the utility. I’m rueful about the loss of 20% of the electric-only range while consuming the same charge. What the heck, build it and I’ll have a choice with the original Volt hatch.

73

+2

Tagamet Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:17 pm)

It’s obviously great to see some potential spinoffs from the Volt, and to the extent that people are actually voicing a *preference* for this one – it *shortens the line for the VOLT!* (g). Please, everyone, hold out for this bigger vehicle! It’s a MUCH better buy and definitely more functional! (looks around to see if anyone is “buying it”)…
I DO hope that it gets past the Concept vehicle stage.

On a more serious note, I need to know who appointed Bob Bonaface as the new Director of GM North America Crossover Exterior Design. Don’t they realize that it leaves Bob essentially N.A.C.E.D???? Oh, wait a minute. Never mind. I thought it was N.A.K.E.D. Whew, I was concerned for a bit there….(g).

Congrats to GM on all the progress of late! NOW, let us know the release schedule!!! (I know, I know, I’m tough to please)(g).

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

74

+4

Mark A Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:18 pm)

This car would totally sell in the US.

75

+1

speedy Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:24 pm)

Were getting the Chevrolet Orlando MPV Next year with the Voltec system.

Tagamet, post #73:
I DO hope (this concept vehicle) gets past the Concept vehicle stage…NOW, let us know the release schedule!!! (I know, I know, I’m tough to please)(g). Be well and believe,
Tagamet Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

Yes, it definitely does, BUT I don’t know if I can wait even longer than I have to for the Volt. I’m pretty patient, but I have limits (g).

Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

78

+1

Kyle Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:33 pm)

It is pretty neat. Definitely a bit more conventional than the Volt. That is primarily due to the fact that it is using existing sheet metal. When comparing it to the Chevrolet Orlando show car (Paris 08) one can see that it is basically the same after the A-pillar. Specifically compare the sheet metal crease under the doors, it is the same, so are the wheel flairs. It looks like a shortened Orlando (using some of the same sheet metal) with a different front clip and rear door. I am a little surprised that they stuck with Orlando’s mirrors and didn’t use the Volts mirrors with a different attaching arm. Reminds me of the similarities between the Chevy Traverse and the Buick Enclave. Definitely following that formula of parts bin reuse. But it is relatively attractive and unique. I like it.

79

IQ130 Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:34 pm)

Nelson: I Love that color!Off topic is anyone having problems opening heavy commented posts like :
Apr
20Are you Reserving a Nissan LEAF Today?
That has 293 Comments.Is there a trick to limit the amount of data IE8 tries to open?NPNS!

Try Mozilla Firefox, I have no problems.

You can also set a minimal font size for people who have problems reading the smaller font:
1 At the top of the Firefox window On the menu bar, click on the ToolsFirefoxEdit menu, and select Options…Preferences….
2 Select the Content panel.
3 Under Fonts & Colors, click the Advanced… button.
4 Set minimal Font size f.i. 15

80

+1

RogerE333 Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:40 pm)

jeffhre: Just another Volt, “with a few more cubic..? Umm, bottom line, there is no such thing as a Volt until October.

Ohhhhkaayyyy… then replace “regular Volt” with “prototype Volt” or “early-production Volt”, if it really bothers you.

In any case it takes a lot more work to bring a working hardware prototype into being than it does to create a computer rendering.

81

+1

speedy Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:43 pm)

Chevrolet Orland MPV will be here next year, on the Delta II platforum, with a voltec system.

Speedy, I think we are getting this as our Voltec MPV. It is clearly a dressed up Orlando that allows it to be marketed as the Volt family (they have learned from Honda and their own hybrid mistakes). I definitely think this is the Orlando EREV that has been discussed.

83

+3

Gary Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (2:56 pm)

As much as I love the Volt and what it represents, considering that I’m getting married soon with kids not too long after that, I would rather go for this over a “normal” Volt. Room for one more person and more cargo is key.

Would be nice to have 40 miles range though… maybe future generations…

ranked in order of passenger/cargo and efficiency. Difference between hatch and MPV is taller storage in extreme rear, which probably eats some aero, but increases vehicle capabilities. The main message of current Prius success is that Americans love mainstream practicality and a liftgate/hatch increases it.

Now get the pricing right. And make all SUVs and pickup trucks inexpensive, full featured, lighter weight (non food crop bio) diesel and ethanol hybrids and make no vehicles that idle (at least stop start). Wait, GM was already on that track, with many back steps and twistings. So it’s all up to consumers from here on out to drive this thing. I bought my last full gasser ever in 2007 and that was a motorcycle.

Automakers can still milk full gassers for a while, but that cow’s old, requires constant costly veternarian services, likes to kick both the milker and the milk drinker in the head and will eventually dry up, and there are many new electric heifers with bows on their tails entering the barn, maturing rapidly towards milking age.

Feel free to pick apart everything above, as it’s all top of the head.

Looks old and dated and we haven’t even got the Volt into production yet. Get with the program GM or get left behind. I signed up for the Leaf because your dragging this on with no production in sight. Sorry GM I am moving forward to the future.

87

+3

Baltimore17 Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (3:03 pm)

Jim: I want it, I Want It, I WANT IT!!! I currently drive a Pontiac Vibe, and the utility and economy of a small (by U.S. market standards) 2-box design is the best of both worlds.For example, I was able to move all of the furniture into my daughter’s new apartment, and I still get over 30mpg.If I could go gas-free, that would be better than words can describe!GM – MAKE THIS FOR THE U.S. MARKET.ASAP!!!(My Vibe is over 7 years old!)

So is mine! Holding onto the Vibe until I can get a Volt. Agree that the MPV5 is the more suitable successor.

88

EVO Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (3:03 pm)

Oops, current prius should be hatch-5 and Ford Escape hybrid also started in 2004.

89

Jim I Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (3:15 pm)

Jim in PA:
Why do you need someone else to do your dirty work for you, sissy?Go buy a Sawzall at Home Depot and get to work!

==================================

sissy? SISSY??????

Them’s fight’n words, mister…..

I’ll have you know I already own a Milwaukee Sawzall!!!!

I would be OK with the cut, but the welding would give me a bit of trouble…….

Just the thought of that would probably give Bob Boniface strange pains in the back of his neck!!!!!

But I wonder what my AER would be……….. Hmmmmmmmmmm. I may have to give this some thought!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

90

Jim I Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (3:18 pm)

EVO: Nicely slotted:Prius sedan-5 (1997-2004)
Ford Fusion hybrid sedan-5 (2009-)Volt hatch-4 (2010-)
Jetta TDI Sportwagen-5 (2009-)
Prius MPV-5 (2005-)
Volt MPV-5 (2012-)
Ford Escape hybrid SUV-5 (2000-)
Prius minivan-7 (2011-)ranked in order of passenger/cargo and efficiency. Difference between hatch and MPV is taller storage in extreme rear, which probably eats some aero, but increases vehicle capabilities. The main message of current Prius success is that Americans love mainstream practicality and a liftgate/hatch increases it.Now get the pricing right. And make all SUVs and pickup trucks inexpensive, full featured, lighter weight (non food crop bio) diesel and ethanol hybrids and make no vehicles that idle (at least stop start). Wait, GM was already on that track, with many back steps and twistings. So it’s all up to consumers from here on out to drive this thing. I bought my last full gasser ever in 2007 and that was a motorcycle.Automakers can still milk full gassers for a while, but that cow’s old, requires constant costly veternarian services, likes to kick both the milker and the milk drinker in the head and will eventually dry up, and there are many new electric heifers with bows on their tails entering the barn, maturing rapidly towards milking age.Feel free to pick apart everything above, as it’s all top of the head.

====================================

I am not going to pick apart your comparisons, because I am still trying to figure out the cow analogy………………..

91

George S. Bower Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (3:35 pm)

Actually, this concept was dreamed up by one of the guys on the forum in Sept, 2008.

If “Peak Oil” occurs by 2015 as the U.S. Army (not generally thought of as a crunchy-granola organization) thinks it will and the price of gas skyrockets, then literally every affluent soccer mom in America will be lining up for this vehicle.

93

+4

Noel Park Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (3:43 pm)

Works for me. Bring it. But NOT from China, please.

94

+1

JohnK Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (3:44 pm)

James: It would hint that GM is planning a Chinese production facility for the MPV5.

They might be, but aren’t exporting it into the US from there (from what I understand). Katie bar the door once someone starts using China no wage labor for vehicle assembly and export to the US….so hopefully it won’t happen.

96

Loboc Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (3:58 pm)

Pete: Looks old and dated and we haven’t even got the Volt into production yet. Get with the program GM or get left behind. I signed up for the Leaf because your dragging this on with no production in sight. Sorry GM I am moving forward to the future.

I haven’t seen any Leafs on the road yet. Test or otherwise. I doubt the Leaf before I doubt the Volt.

97

Kyle Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (4:11 pm)

Just went and looked at some estimated dimensions for the Orlando online and I don’t even think this is a shortened version of the Orlando. I think the Volt MPV5 is dimensionally the same. Different front clip and different rear door and taillights. Online people have been speculating that the Volt MPV5 is smaller because of this screen shot pulled from a video released by GM some months ago. It shows the Volt MPV5 sitting next to an Orlando. In the image it is clearly smaller but now I’m thinking this is a model not the actual car.

The more Voltec driven models the better.
I like the MPV. It will be great for the masses.
My wife and I want to replace our daily drivers with Voltec counterparts.
We need a Voltec two seat convertable little sports car to replace her red Miata.
Also a Voltec regular cab, 2wd regular bed pickup to replace my ’07 Blue Colorado.
Go get ’em GM.

100

Singh Parkash Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (4:30 pm)

Guys, did you know about this technology? It seems we finally have potential to see exploration of solar energy at a practical and commerical level, isn’t it? Solar panels are too expensive because it requires Sillicon. This one below is not the case. I wrote to the company and they tell me there is no system available for home installations yet but they are looking into home deployment in about 2 years. How I would love to see competitors bringing this to market for home use. It would be great power my Leaf using this. What a potential folks.

GM commit to make this a production vehicle. Currenly I own a Pontiac Vibe and was sad to see Pontiac and the Vibe come to an end. The Volt MVP5 would be the perfect replacement. Not sure if the MVP will be size of a Vibe or Equinox, but guessing it is closer to Vibe size. Expect this can have larger market then the Volt.

“GM continues to advance electrification in China through research and development. It has launched the China Automotive Energy Research Center (CAERC) in Beijing. The venture with SAIC and Tsinghua University is developing a comprehensive automotive energy strategy for China. The GM China Science Lab, which opened last November, is carrying out advanced automotive-related research, including battery development. In March, GM introduced the EN-V (Electric Networked-Vehicle) concepts in Shanghai. A centerpiece of the SAIC-GM Pavilion at World Expo 2010 Shanghai, EN-V embodies GM’s vision for personal urban mobility in 2030. In addition, GM is supporting its Shanghai GM joint venture’s “Drive to Green” strategy, which is focused on developing green products, supporting green manufacturing and undertaking a green responsibility.”

Isn’t it great how GM is spending all our tax payer funds outside and away from American tax payers?
The fleecing of America at it’s BEST!!!
Thanks only to Obama!

Sasparilla: Right, I wouldn’t touch it if it was made there either (though god knows the Execs at GM would love it if they could get away with it).

I would buy a Toyota before I would a GM car made in China. I wouldn’t even rent one if I could possibly help it.

As it is, I’m upset that they’re exporting the technology to China. BYD will buy one, take it apart, and appropriate any relevant technology that they can then use to compete with established automakers. Not just in China. But in markets all over the world. Including, ultimately, North America. It’s a wonderful use of our taxpayer funded research.

105

+1

djquick64 Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (5:27 pm)

I would buy this if they bring it to production. If it takes a few years, maybe General Motors will learn they can use more kw without hurting the battery. 40 miles should be possible on electricity if/when this is available.

Can you say Hummer mentality! When will it ever end. Some how they think we want and NEED BIG FAT inefficient vehicles to drive. First they need to get the Volt out before luring you in with YET another FAT Inefficient Vehicle.

Pat: This would be much better for my family of 5. I’m just disppointed to see the mileage drop to 32 (I was hoping they would be increasing the Volt’s 40 in future concepts). I can understand that this is a larger vehicle and will need more power, in general, but when you drop to 32, the cost/benefit equation gets even harder to justify (I have to imagine the price will also be higher than Volt). Of course, you also can no longer make the arguement that a 4-cyl small car is a better cost/benefit solution, but comparing to say, Mazda 5, it’s still quite a gap. Still, glad to see the platform being extended. I’m confident things will only get better.

107

khaos Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (5:55 pm)

GM knowing Americans love their big gas guzzling SUV’s and they come out with this for China?!

Everyone feel that big slap in your face?

108

-2

EVO Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (5:56 pm)

Unsung electric vehicles are now at work trying to clean up yet another mess from big oil:

[W]orkers have been using underwater robots to try to reach equipment on the sea floor and shut off the flow of oil from the well the rig was drilling. WSJ

The worst news is that the oil rig vessel was a diesel series electric hybrid.

GM/US/Whitacre/ExxonMobil/Canada/UK/BP will now have to build 20,527 extra nonfood biodiesel Volts of every flavor just to make up for that single hybrid loss by weight.

/hyperbole off

/thoughts to families and sea creatures

109

jeffhre Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (6:01 pm)

RogerE333:
Ohhhhkaayyyy… then replace “regular Volt” with “prototype Volt” or “early-production Volt”, if it really bothers you.In any case it takes a lot more work to bring a working hardware prototype into being than it does to create a computer rendering.

Loboc:
I haven’t seen any Leafs on the road yet. Test or otherwise. I doubt the Leaf before I doubt the Volt.

Where have you been? Following the Volt I suspect, and still have not seen. The Leaf is out of concept and is being test driven and shown all around. I have even signed up for one. I am on the official early list and have my slot for one. Too bad the volt can’t make that claim.

Want to make a wager on who gets to market first? I’d bet my all electric VW I converted while waiting for the BIG guys to get off their butts and do something right for a change. Kudos to Nissan.

Pete

111

koz Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (6:08 pm)

LauraM: I would buy a Toyota before I would a GM car made in China. I wouldn’t even rent one if I could possibly help it. As it is, I’m upset that they’re exporting the technology to China. BYD will buy one, take it apart, and appropriate any relevant technology that they can then use to compete with established automakers. Not just in China. But in markets all over the world. Including, ultimately, North America. It’s a wonderful use of our taxpayer funded research. (Quote)

Keeping production in US won’t prevent reverse engineering. They can certainly afford to buy one here and do that. The problem would be more from the actual production over there. There is absolutely no respect or governence for intellectual property and it is left the the manufacturer to try to police their intellectual property. Plant engineers, managers, line workers, etc. would all have access to intellectual property and expertise that WILL quickly find it’s way to other Chinese companies. The other problem is with suppliers. Sensitive components that are outsourced to local vendors would be even harder to police.

112

Bob G Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (6:12 pm)

CorvetteGuy:
I agree with you about the name… Some 20 years ago I used to sell Mazdas, and they had the Mazda MPV Minivan. Not good to copy them.I vote for “Chevy Nomad V”.

Please no! The Nomad had style. This thing is just another copycat-cross-over-soulless travel appliance. MPV is the perfect name, because it emphasizes function over form.

113

+1

Van Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (6:21 pm)

If the same battery configuration is used, how do they sit three across in the back seat. Where would the middle passenger put their feet. Perhaps it sports a broken “T” with a section removed
to provide foot room. Any other ideas?

114

Todd Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (6:21 pm)

I have to admit, I’d buy this over the Volt anyday. My daily drive is at 30 miles to and from work so this would still provide me with exceptional savings and give me the extra cargo room that I need from time to time for my three Labs who love to go for rides. GM – this would sell.

Yet another product from GM that ensures you will always be dependent on foreign oil.
Awesome! Tax dollars at work to make sure GM keeps sleeping with the enemy, big oil. GM has it made, they can now sell electric lame drive and STILL sell the old archaic internal combustion engine and makes sure you have your fallback of burning dirty gas and pllouting the environment. But best of all, they’ll do it losing money the whole damn time!
This has got to be the proudest group of supporters for big oil and government waste I have ever seen.

LauraM: It might be a lot harder to build it meeting North American safety standards. I would assume that Chinese cars are a lot lighter without the extra safety precautions. So they can be bigger and yet more efficient.

My first thought. Even without the safety equipment the range dropped to 32 miles. And this is not due to aerodynamics ….

RogerE333: Also interesting how the shape change lowered the electric range that much. Proves that aero matters!

The range is based on the US EPA City Cycle. The average speed on that cycle is something like 20 MPH and the car moves at more than 30 MPH for maybe a couple of minutes (out of thirty minutes). Given that drag isn’t going to begin to be a factor until the vehicle goes over 25 MPH, the conclusion has to be that what you’re looking at is a weight penalty.

118

+2

Dave K. Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (6:36 pm)

Th Volt MPV is a very good first step in the electrification of American made trucks. I suggest going with a bigger electric motor to maintain a 0-60 of under 9 seconds. Providing both power and efficiency is one of the strong points of the Volt-line. The increased ground clearance of the Volt MPV is a huge plus. Consumers need a vehicle that will perform at the beach. In the mountains. In the snow and rain. And on uneven surfaces including driveway entry ramps.

The sharing of parts and features from the original Volt is expected. Be careful to not slip away from a clean, smart, and simple idea. Keep it simple and uncluttered.

=D-Volt-line

119

-4

Range Anxiety = dependent on foreign oil. Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (6:37 pm)

nuf said.

120

+1

Dan Petit Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (6:55 pm)

LauraM: I would buy a Toyota before I would a GM car made in China.I wouldn’t even rent one if I could possibly help it.As it is, I’m upset that they’re exporting the technology to China.BYD will buy one, take it apart, and appropriate any relevant technology that they can then use to compete with established automakers.Not just in China.But in markets all over the world.Including, ultimately, North America.It’s a wonderful use of ourtaxpayer funded research.

Not me,
I’d much rather buy anything GM makes (to GM’s high quality standards), than

As DonC said yesterday, the insurance companies are sounding the alarm with Toyota vehicles. I am also seeing very insufficient diagnostic fault code structures in Toyota’s (which incompetent translations and deliberate omissions promote their vehicles to the point of unfeasible independent repair economics at around 150,000 miles). (Not Honda though, Honda just has true long-term 250,000 mile longevity if you use synthetic oil and do the factory fluids 20% ahead of time here in the heat of the Southwest, and if you stick with their parts).

I sure would at the very least stand back for a while from Toyota is my best advice, Laura, as I think far more things will come to light this coming Summer, and everyone ought to at least wait until all the dust settles.

You see, China is at a place for quality (if product standards are a quality-US-Company-directed) that Japan was in the 1960’s, when Toyota’s were just at the transition for quality, and they were underestimated based on their previous history.
China, (to our disadvantage and advantage at the same time), is advancing in quality.

We had better use the savings to pay down our debt service this year,

and, I also advise for everyone to accelerate their auto service schedules to 20% earlier than the “Severe Service” schedule in their owner’s manual recommends, in case the banking requirements for lending for new cars becomes even more stringent, requiring many more to keep their vehicles another year or two.

This coming Summer may be even hotter than last Summer, so, I highly recommend that everyone have their vehicles thoroughly serviced *way* before that heat hits. (Again, specify the OEM brands for parts, and you can’t go wrong.) Funding those maintenance intervals 20% sooner than the “Severe Schedule” right now, and you are far more likely to have a better reseale leverage for down payment for whenever you want a Voltec vehicle.

From what I see out here that is happening all at once, no way would I buy Toyota, no way at all.

GM is protected in China as far as trade secrets are concerned. If anything, those mega sales in China might very well translate to far more affordable Voltec systems parts for us right here, making our Volts and Volt MPV5’s far more affordable in the first place. That may very well be the only way for us to keep more of our money here, due to financing costs (US Treasury bonds not as much needing to be sold abroad.) So, there might be trade-offs that GM execs can work out for us in our best interests.

China already has all the basic knowledge about batteries and motors and dc-to-dc converters and on and on anyway. Stay away from Toyota for at least a year or two is what I advise.

Nice to see loyal Vibe owners here! And it’ll be an easy transition: Vibe to Volt. How many 4-letter cars do you know that start with a “V”?

It looks like the MPV5 slots between the Vibe and Equinox, but the MPV5 is actually wider than either. I imawonder if the MPV5 battery pack might be shallower and wider, thus fitting beneath the floor of the MPV5.

Dimensions / Volt / MPV5 / Vibe / Equinox

Length / 170 / 180.5 / 171.9 / 187.8

Width / 70.5 / 73.7 / 69.9 / 72.5

Height / 52.6 / 63.5 / 62.5 / 66.3

Interestingly, the Vibe was never a great seller in the U.S. Not really a poor seller, but not a best-selling car either. I think Americans wanted Crossovers that looked like they could tackle the Rubicon, even though they would never take them off-road. Of course, if gas is $3.00+/gallon, cars like the Vibe and small wagons would do much better. I’m really happy that the Volt is a hatchback, but it won’t have the carrying capacity of a Vibe or MPV5.

122

Roy H Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (7:11 pm)

Van: If the same battery configuration is used, how do they sit three across in the back seat.Where would the middle passenger put their feet.Perhaps it sports a broken “T” with a section removed
to provide foot room.Any other ideas?

Yeh, that struck me as an oxymoron too. This looks like just CAD drawings, so since it is just a drawing, anything goes. I would expect they have a real prototype at Beijing. and I think we will find out that is is a “modified T” construction. Remember a while back when they were talking about GenII batteries and how they were going to offer smaller AER by breaking it up into smaller modules and then saying you could get 1, 2 or 4 modules. All this means that they can place the modules anywhere they want.

For all those bemoaning this is only for China, fear not. This is just announcing the product for China. I am sure they will make Chinese versions in China, and American versions here.

123

+3

Dan Petit Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (7:16 pm)

Using the above 32 mile AER, and, also, if the CS mode were to be only 40mpg instead of 50mpg,
for the 19,000 miles a year I drive at 20.5mpg, I would save $2,100 annually in gasoline.
The maintenance savings would cover the electricity usage for the most part. That’s
$10,500 in gas savings over the life of the 5 year note if gas stays at only $2.65 a gallon.

I really like the looks of the Volt MPV5.

And, having actually driven the Volt, and being inside of it, the above mentioned dimensions are very well planned out, even though they are stated in metric numbers, I’d be very sure of a concurrent release of such a design here as well. America will really demand this Voltec design.

I think many, if not most of us would gladly go for the 32 AER and a slightly lowered Charge Sustain mpg figure with no displeasure whatsoever. I know I would just love to be able to buy one.

124

+3

Loboc Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (7:19 pm)

Pete:
Where have you been? Following the Volt I suspect, and still have not seen. The Leaf is out of concept and is being test driven and shown all around. I have even signed up for one. I am on the official early list and have my slot for one. Too bad the volt can’t make that claim.
Want to make a wager on who gets to market first? I’d bet my all electric VW I converted while waiting for the BIG guys to get off their butts and do something right for a change. Kudos to Nissan.Pete

Point to a video of anybody driving a real Leaf. I don’t see any except mule tests (Versa body). I am also signed up on Leaf’s list and they haven’t shown me anything concrete yet.

Conversely, there are literally hundreds of Volt test drive videos out there.

Dan Petit: Not me,I’d much rather buy anything GM makes (to GM’s high quality standards), than ****************ANYTHING****************Toyota*******************HAS EVER MADE!!!*******************(Not Honda though, Honda just has true long-term 250,000 mile longevity if you use synthetic oil and do the factory fluids 20% (Quote)

ANY,- certainly many, cars engines will go 250,000 miles, if you use synthetic oil and change fluids 20% ahead of of recommended schedule. Honda is not exclusive in that feature.

126

+6

Harrier1970 Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (7:30 pm)

This design is from 2008.

First, the interior images are computer generated and echo the Volt interior (the center stack monitor was changed to a more solid appearance some time ago as people kept trying to adjust it despite that it was not meant to be moved). Further, one of the side images is signed with “deiu7 08″ or “deiv7 08″ which makes me think this dates to 2008. This version of the Volt has been in the works for some time.

It seems that the brass at GM now feel comfortable enough to show more of their commitment to the Voltec drivetrain and I am pleased to see that China is a market that they are going after. They can make a huge splash there with lots of potential growth (PLUS it helps to curb rising Chinese oil use). Adopting vehicles like this will decrease the demand for oil in China (if the vehicles are adopted on a massive scale but every little bit counts). It also cements GM as a quality vehicle manufacturer in China for the coming decades. GM = quality and cool tech to 1 billion consumers. That is a powerful base to rebuild a company under.

Presently, Volts are being built here in the US. I wonder if we will be building the MPV here as well and then shipping it to China. That would be nice for the trade deficit.

Congrats to GM leadership… the bailout loan is paid back 5 years ahead of time and they are making very sharp decisions on where to go next. Keep that culture change going at the top… get rid of any remaining slugs.

Harrier1970

127

+1

Dan Petit Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (7:36 pm)

Toyota currently has to deal with 8.6 *million* recalls for *one* set of conditions for each right now.
What I am saying is that from what I am now seeing out here, that this is just the beginning.
I can’t say this more simply than that.
How many Toyota dealerships are there in the US. Divide that by 8.6 million recalls. One might just start to get the picture here of how long that is going to take, and, are they really going to do be able to do it all in the first place in a timely manner. It is my understanding that those poor techs are already burned out with all this.

128

+3

Harrier1970 Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (7:36 pm)

Loboc:
Point to a video of anybody driving a real Leaf. I don’t see any except mule tests (Versa body). I am also signed up on Leaf’s list and they haven’t shown me anything concrete yet.
Conversely, there are literally hundreds of Volt test drive videos out there.Where’s the beef?

I drove a Volt in New York and it was awesome!… can’t say I have seen much of the Leaf. I love that another company is getting in the game with an EV, I just wish the Leaf was better looking. The Volt is not exactly sexy, but compared to the Leaf, she is a supermodel. Putting out an ugly duckling like the Leaf makes all EV’s look bad.

Is it so hard to make a nice looking EV car with decent coefficient drag?

Harrier1970

129

+1

Loboc Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (7:56 pm)

Van: If the same battery configuration is used, how do they sit three across in the back seat.Where would the middle passenger put their feet.Perhaps it sports a broken “T” with a section removed
to provide foot room.Any other ideas?

It looks like the MPV sits higher than the Volt. Maybe they can get the third seat above the tunnel now. I suspect that this seat is not designed for a 200lb male :).

130

+5

NZDavid Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (7:57 pm)

Just eyeballing it here, and going on the general shape of the car, I think they have reversed the battery, so the “T” part is now at the front firewall, and the marginal increase in wheel length is just long enough to stop the other end from projecting into the rear passenger compartment.

This is DEFINITELY the vehicle for me. Bloody well done GM!

Groan, the wait goes on. . . .

As to the truck problem. Twin volt engines so we have four wheel drive. A RED “Heavy Load” button, on the console, to engage the second motor and the Generator at the same time.
In this way we could get away with a slightly upsized pack to 20KW/h and the numbers still match.

And yes, I realise that towing a heavy load for a long distance will stress the system, but hey you can always stop for a coffee and a pee somewhere, and let the Generator continue to recharge the battery for the next hundred and fifty mile chunk. Or, of course, just accept that in CS mode a heavy load will slow the truck down to 50mph or so. So Bring it on GM.

nasaman: PS to my post #56: The two skylight panels extend across most of the passenger compartment and are divided by a ceiling console —maybe this is where the remaining 1/3rd of the battery is located?

131

+1

koz Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (8:20 pm)

Van: If the same battery configuration is used, how do they sit three across in the back seat. Where would the middle passenger put their feet. Perhaps it sports a broken “T” with a section removedto provide foot room. Any other ideas? (Quote)

The roof is higher so maybe raising the seat level an equivalent amount provides some foot room. It is still probably pretty limited.

Harrier1970, post #128:
I drove a Volt in New York and it was awesome!… can’t say I have seen much of the Leaf. I love that another company is getting in the game with an EV, I just wish the Leaf was better looking. The Volt is not exactly sexy, but compared to the Leaf, she is a supermodel. Putting out an ugly duckling like the Leaf makes all EV’s look bad. Is it so hard to make a nice looking EV car with decent coefficient drag? Harrier1970

…Everything he said!

You took the words right out of my mouth, Harrier! I can only add that one reason I haven’t seen much of the Leaf either is that it’s so *&!@# ugly I can’t stand to look at it!!!

133

+2

nuclearboy Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (8:25 pm)

Pete: Can you say Hummer mentality! When will it ever end. Some how they think we want and NEED BIG FAT inefficient vehicles to drive. First they need to get the Volt out before luring you in with YET another FAT Inefficient Vehicle.

Unfortunately, Nuclearboy needs fat and inefficient vehicles if that is what you call this thing. They don’t have to lure me to it, I seek them out.

Everyone has their own version of a minimum requirement. I personally like this slightly larger car. It is more ergonomic for me.

Darn! I wish I had even the remotest of video skills – but alas, none in my bag of tricks. Sounds like a great trip though!
Thanks for sharing.
(looks like the “trip” will be the week AFTER the 7/4 release!)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet

Good grief….when does the insanity from Government Motors end…to produce a car for China and announce it to americans is…well…upsurd…thats like someone holding a wad of cash and saying nah nah nah..you cant have it…

GM whatever…I’m still awaiting Volt to come out before I even remotely get excited…I’ve been on the waiting list now for about 3 years when they announced it’s release…wait list # 32168 to be exact…so again I am not holding my breath…as these baffoons mis yet another opportunity…again…

136

-3

jeffhre Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (9:02 pm)

Dave K.: I suggest going with a bigger electric motor to maintain a 0-60 of under 9 seconds. Providing both power and efficiency is one of the strong points of the Volt-line.

Different paradigm. You understand it but others could be misled. A bigger motor is an ICE solution since what you want is more battery juice sent from the IGBT’s to the motor. Therefore you use your controllers to give you more power not a bigger motor. With more power the originally specified motor may be just fine. Or you may need to change the windings, or increase cooling. Just want to make sure people aren’t fooled into thinking it’s like going from a V6 to a V8.

137

koz Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (9:06 pm)

Baltimore17: So is mine! Holding onto the Vibe until I can get a Volt. Agree that the MPV5 is the more suitable successor. (Quote)

Dos Vibes aqui. I can imagine one MPV5 and one Volt (of course a Tesla Model S or like may be displace one Voltec)

138

Sal MBA Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (9:32 pm)

The Volt MPV5 is real nice, and I want one. Can I put another $99 deposit down on that one too?
I’m sure if it ever sells in USA, it would be years ago. Maybe that’s not too bad, it should be ready when my 3 year Nissan Leaf lease is finished.

139

+1

dwwbkw Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (9:37 pm)

Van: If the same battery configuration is used, how do they sit three across in the back seat. Where would the middle passenger put their feet. Perhaps it sports a broken “T” with a section removedto provide foot room. Any other ideas? (Quote)

Van, note that the Volt MPV5 is 11 inches taller than the Volt. That should provide extra clearance to get the cabin floor above the battery with only a small center hump in the rear part of the passenger compartment. Although the MPV5 will not be a “ground hugger” like the Volt, the battery’s weight will still keep the CG low. Also helps improve cargo space. BTW, the extra height, width, and length over the Volt certainly adds weight, thus the lower AER.

140

Dave K. Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (9:55 pm)

jeffhre: With more power the originally specified motor may be just fine. Or you may need to change the windings, or increase cooling.

Let’s face it. The Volt MPV is a truck. This requires it to have hauling capacity and torque. Going with a 180HP electric motor at 30 miles initial electric range. Followed by 38-40 miles CS mpg is a fantastic achievement. True, the 150hp stock electric Volt motor would work with very attentive cooling control. Just don’t want to reduce the 0-60 fun factor and become uncompetitive.

Years ago had the chance to ride in a rotary engine mini pick up truck. The engine noise was a steady buzz. And although the mpg wasn’t very good. The 0-60 fun factor was terrific.

=D-Volt-fun

141

+1

DaveA Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (9:57 pm)

WOW!! Another Home Run for GM. I Love it! I like it better than the Volt. I Love the interior also. It takes a special auto to wow me with both it’s interior and exterior. Usually they hit on one but miss on the other. I love both on this GM. Please build it.

142

DonC Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (10:18 pm)

Dave K.: Just don’t want to reduce the 0-60 fun factor and become uncompetitive.

The battery is the limiting factor not the motor. Comparing motors and engines is like comparing apples to oranges. Engines are rated at peak power. Motors are rated at continuous power. For short periods they can provide much higher peak power. Using 300% of continuous power as peak power for acceleration would not be an unreasonable estimate.

As always the problem is the battery. It simply can’t supply enough power to accelerate more mass as fast as you’d like it to.

143

-3

Grouch Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (10:24 pm)

nasaman: PS to my post #56: The two skylight panels extend across most of the passenger compartment and are divided by a ceiling console —maybe this is where the remaining 1/3rd of the battery is located?

Yes, because you can’t woo an SUV buyer if you forget to include the rollover risk!

144

Dave K. Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (10:50 pm)

DonC: As always the problem is the battery. It simply can’t supply enough power to accelerate more mass as fast as you’d like it to.

My thinking follows RC vehicles. Battery technology is advancing very fast at this level. Now getting 3 or 4 times more run time than 3 years ago. This is with a bigger electric motor and the same weight battery. Much more fun. This technology is spreading and accelerating.

Dan Petit: I sure would at the very least stand back for a while from Toyota is my best advice, Laura, as I think far more things will come to light this coming Summer, and everyone ought to at least wait until all the dust settles.

You see, China is at a place for quality (if product standards are a quality-US-Company-directed) that Japan was in the 1960’s, when Toyota’s were just at the transition for quality, and they were underestimated based on their previous history.
China, (to our disadvantage and advantage at the same time), is advancing in quality.

It’s not about quality concerns. The point is that I’d rather support Japan than China. Japan is a democracy. And the Japanese are generally responsible international players. China, not so much. I’m not happy about Japanese whaling. But that’s one issue. I could list 20 or 30 issues I have with the Chinese government. Of course, given the choice, I’d rather buy American. But if GM manufactures in China, that’s a deal breaker for me.

That said, I’ve heard about numerous problems with Chinese manufacturers cutting corners on US manufacturer’s specifications. I know some people in import/export. And let’s just say it’s a lot easier to do quality control when it’s closer to home. I’d trust Toyota, with all their problems, before I’d trust a car imported from China. Whether or not there’s a US manufacturer involved.

Luckily, it’s unlikely to become an issue for me. Right now, my plan is to buy a Ford Fusion hybrid if I can’t get a Volt when I need to buy my car. Which, unfortunately, is looking more and more likely. I can’t do a waiting list, and I have major issues with the idea of paying a huge mark-up. But Toyota is way down on my shopping list.

146

+1

dwwbkw Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:02 pm)

Harrier1970: This design is from 2008.First, the interior images are computer generated and echo the Volt interior (the center stack monitor was changed to a more solid appearance some time ago as people kept trying to adjust it despite that it was not meant to be moved). Further, one of the side images is signed with “deiu7 08″ or “deiv7 08″ which makes me think this dates to 2008. This version of the Volt has been in the works for some time.It seems that the brass at GM now feel comfortable enough to show more of their commitment to the Voltec drivetrain and I am pleased to see that China is a market that they are going after. They can make a huge splash there with lots of potential growth (PLUS it helps to curb rising Chinese oil use). Adopting vehicles like this will decrease the demand for oil in China (if the vehicles are adopted on a massive scale but every little bit counts). It also cements GM as a quality vehicle manufacturer in China for the coming decades. GM = quality and cool tech to 1 billion consumers. That is a powerful base to rebuild a company under.Presently, Volts are being built here in the US. I wonder if we will be building the MPV here as well and then shipping it to China. That would be nice for the trade deficit.Congrats to GM leadership… the bailout loan is paid back 5 years ahead of time and they are making very sharp decisions on where to go next. Keep that culture change going at the top… get rid of any remaining slugs.Harrier1970 (Quote)

Well said, Harrier1970! I think it’s OK to have an American company manufacturing in China for the Chinese domestic market and shipping its share of the profits back to the USA. Same thing as what the Japanese companies have been doing here. Also, I suspect this car is definitely going to be built in North America for our domestic market. Just look at its dimensions – definitely sized for NA buyers. China is going to be hard-pressed to meet its own domestic demand – it’s good if GM can get a piece of the action. Really different situation than trying to sell American cars in Japan where non-Japanese manufacturers are essentially locked out of the Japanese market.

dwwbkw

147

Islander Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:18 pm)

This is very good news overall. But WTF? If they only offer this in China I will be done.

As is the Volt styling, the MPV styling is… yawn… boaring. So I have to say what styling on the MPV? The back end is squared off and a few inches added. Being the only American option, I may still buy one. I am board and getting tired of waiting. I am buying an f-ing convertable and let all this dust settle… LOL… BTW I would have to go to China to buy a GM convertable. I’m going to have a beer.

Thanks Lyle and all for the good info.

148

+1

Dan Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:40 pm)

I love that color also. I wish I could get that on my volt! Still can’t believe they don’t have a blue color for release.

149

+1

jbfalaska Says

Apr 22nd, 2010 (11:49 pm)

Incredible! Absolutely right on the mark. Chevy is going to be the GM lineup brand once again.

150

LauraM Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (12:01 am)

Harrier1970: It seems that the brass at GM now feel comfortable enough to show more of their commitment to the Voltec drivetrain and I am pleased to see that China is a market that they are going after. They can make a huge splash there with lots of potential growth (PLUS it helps to curb rising Chinese oil use). Adopting vehicles like this will decrease the demand for oil in China (if the vehicles are adopted on a massive scale but every little bit counts). It also cements GM as a quality vehicle manufacturer in China for the coming decades. GM = quality and cool tech to 1 billion consumers. That is a powerful base to rebuild a company under.

I have zero expectations for any US based company to succeed in the long term in China. Right now? When there are no Chinese players. Sure. But, eventually, the Chinese government wants their domestic manufacturers to dominate not only their own market, but the world markets. And they have a lot of tools to get what they want within their own market.

That said, the fate of US corporations doesn’t matter to me half as much as the fate of US workers. IBM is doing very well internationally. So is GE. And Microsoft. And Intel. That doesn’t help the US worker since they’re doing not only any manufacturing overseas but also their R&D. There are no jobs left for Americans.

I met someone recently who works for IBM. They’re literally paying her to train to become a nurse because they want an excuse to get rid of all of their US staff. If GM follows suit, then we just wasted a lot of taxpayer money, IMHO. Japanese companies may be loyal to their home country. US companies–not so much.

151

+1

LauraM Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (12:09 am)

dwwbkw: I think it’s OK to have an American company manufacturing in China for the Chinese domestic market and shipping its share of the profits back to the USA. Same thing as what the Japanese companies have been doing here.

I have no problem with them manufacturing in China for the Chinese domestic market. It’s them manufacturing in China for the US market that I have a huge problem with. That said, Toyota, at least, still imported 60% of the vehicles sold in the US from Japan. At least, they did in 2007.

dwwbkw: Just look at its dimensions – definitely sized for NA buyers. China is going to be hard-pressed to meet its own domestic demand – it’s good if GM can get a piece of the action. Really different situation than trying to sell American cars in Japan where non-Japanese manufacturers are essentially locked out of the Japanese market.

These are two totally different problems. Many American companies do really really well all over the world. As long as they’re moving the jobs involved overseas, that doesn’t help most Americans. It does make the stock market go up. Which I suppose helps a lot of people. But that’s no way to run a sustainable economy.

152

+2

George in Berkeley Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (12:20 am)

[WOOF!]

Finally, a machine for me. [WAG WAG WAG]

But…the tailgate glass has to lift up separately. When my master goes shopping (the nerve!), it can get really hot…and cracking the windows just doesn’t cut it. I need air! [WOOF!]

And a ramp. A little pull out ramp. I’m an old girl (aging beatifully, except for that large, furry wottle) and my four hips just don’t work like they used to.

And a built in water bowl. Don’t know ’bout you, but all that panting MAKES MAMA THIRSTY!

Sure glad I don’t have to wedge my matronly canine rear end into a bucket seat no mo’ [DOUBLE WOOF!]

153

nathan Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (12:58 am)

I would buy this version over the Volt just to get the 5 seats. More practical for a family like mine. Granted, if the Volt had 5 seats I would rather have that, but this will suit me fine.

Targeting for China makes no sense. Has GM ever heard of the 1 child per family policy!? I would imagine the need for a 5 seater there is much less.

Look at the floor of the cargo area: it sure looks like 2 extra foldable seats!!!

155

+1

Rashiid Amul Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (6:17 am)

I think I like the Volt better.

156

koz Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (6:27 am)

DonC: The battery is the limiting factor not the motor. Comparing motors and engines is like comparing apples to oranges. Engines are rated at peak power. Motors are rated at continuous power. For short periods they can provide much higher peak power. Using 300% of continuous power as peak power for acceleration would not be an unreasonable estimate. As always the problem is the battery. It simply can’t supply enough power to accelerate more mass as fast as you’d like it to. (Quote)

The batteries, like the motor, are rated at continuos for Ah rating and peak for max power. I could be wrong, but I thought the Volt’s battery was max rated at about 150KW. My understanding is that the limiting factor right now is the power electronics. All of the components could be made to higher power ratings with available tech but costs and packaging becomes issues. Higher power mean more cooling too.

157

tom w Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (6:34 am)

targeting china, is that because they don’t use up the 250,000 cars for US credit, they need to sell as many as they can overseas while they drive the costs down for EV/EREVs, once the US credit is down they need to have their costs down to comparable ICE vehicles

158

BLDude Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (7:23 am)

johnny2373: Good grief….when does the insanity from Government Motors end…to produce a car for China and announce it to americans is…well…upsurd…thats like someone holding a wad of cash and saying nah nah nah..you cant have it…GM whatever…I’m still awaiting Volt to come out before I even remotely get excited…I’ve been on the waiting list now for about 3 years when they announced it’s release…wait list # 32168 to be exact…so again I am not holding my breath…as these baffoons mis yet another opportunity…again…

GM – like its competitors – deals in the global marketplace. Thinking otherwise is being provincial. Did you know GM sells more cars in China than any other auto manufacturer there? Right now, US companies making and selling cars in China is probably one of the few things the US beats China at. How many Chinese owned car companies are making and selling product in the US market? I can’t think of one.

159

+1

Dan Petit Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (7:35 am)

LauraM:
I have zero expectations for any US based company to succeed in the long term in China.Right now?When there are no Chinese players.Sure.But, eventually, the Chinese government wants their domestic manufacturers to dominate not only their own market, but the world markets.And they have a lot of tools to get what they want within their own market.
That said, the fate of US corporations doesn’t matter to me half as much as the fate of US workers.IBM is doing very well internationally.So is GE.And Microsoft.And Intel.That doesn’t help the US worker since they’re doing not only any manufacturing overseas but also their R&D.There are no jobs left for Americans.I met someone recently who works for IBM.They’re literally paying her to train to become a nurse because they want an excuse to get rid of all of their US staff.If GM follows suit, then we just wasted a lot of taxpayer money, IMHO.Japanese companies may be loyal to their home country.US companies–not so much.

Japan is not that much more of a democracy than is China. I lived in Japan as an intelligence analyst and can tell you right now that Japan is just a smaller version of China with more open voting characteristics, and, since the US conquered them in WW2, Japan is merely more involved with the world because of the ways we were able to force them to be open with the world. The two countries have the very same internal demands due to their overpopulations.

You are right that quality control is the main battle there. But quality control is also a battle in Japan from a directives at the top situation and their decreasing economic positions.
I think you are smart to go with an American car company after all for whatever is available if you are forced to buy something before Volt availability.

We have the dilemma that we want decent paying jobs, but generally, there is so much media that purports to be “current” and “valid”, that the American student is nearly totally unable to sift out what would be helpful for job-valuation wage wise. Even just 5 years ahead of when that training needs to be put into place for whatever decent paying job remains available, the training becomes obsolete.

The big problem with automotive training, for example, is that the rate of obsolescence is three years. When a shop owner pays for training, the expectation that the content be long-lasting is partly correct if the techs are ever discovering the basic physics applications for the new systems. The point is that the returns on investment must be immediate, and the content immediately relevant to the live problems presented in the bays for decent paying jobs to pay.

You can’t just be good or very good, you have to actually *be* relentlessly outstanding all the time for a decent wage nowadays.

160

+1

joe Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (7:51 am)

Great job GM. You are on the way to your old glory days. Keep it up!

161

Dave K. Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (8:14 am)

Will the Volt-line production lighting be yellow and not the usually illustrated blue?

=D-Volt

162

JohnK Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (8:16 am)

#110

Pete: Where have you been? Following the Volt I suspect, and still have not seen. The Leaf is out of concept and is being test driven and shown all around. I have even signed up for one. I am on the official early list and have my slot for one. Too bad the volt can’t make that claim.

I’m glad that you like the Leaf Pete and hope that you get one. But the Leaf made a “tour of the US” and when it stopped in Detroit and we called about seeing it we were told that it could be seen only by Nissan employees. Further, it was scheduled to make an appearance at the Detroit auto show and was actually there for about 48 hours during the press only days, gone before the first day that the show was open to the public. I have a Volt on order. I suspect that I will be driving a Volt before you are driving a Leaf. But I still hope that you enjoy your Leaf, whenever you get it.

163

+1

JohnK Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (8:24 am)

BLDude: GM – like its competitors – deals in the global marketplace. Thinking otherwise is being provincial. Did you know GM sells more cars in China than any other auto manufacturer there?

Hear on the radio this morning on the Paul W. Smith broadcast from the Bejing auto show “GM makes more cars in China than it does in the US.”
I think that we should concentrate on boosting our products and capabilities at home rather than trying to put down the products and people of other countries.

koz: The batteries, like the motor, are rated at continuos for Ah rating and peak for max power. I could be wrong, but I thought the Volt’s battery was max rated at about 150KW. My understanding is that the limiting factor right now is the power electronics.

I’m not sure we know what the peak battery power is, although it wouldn’t surprise me if you’re right that the peak power produced by the pack is 150 hp. My point is that the peak power of the motor might be something like 450 hp.

Power electronics are something you can upgrade. GM would know know how to do that. The battery on the other hand is already at GM’s technological frontier. If you look at the 0-60 times for the Volt, the fact that GM cancelled the Converj because of acceleration issues, and the fact that GM is saying Volec doesn’t scale up for larger cars, and it’s hard not to conclude that the battery is the limiting both performance and the suitability of Voltec to a range of vehicles.

166

+2

nuclearboy Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (9:08 am)

johnny2373: Good grief….when does the insanity from Government Motors end…to produce a car for China and announce it to americans is…well…upsurd…thats like someone holding a wad of cash and saying nah nah nah..you cant have it…

GM whatever…I’m still awaiting Volt to come out before I even remotely get excited…I’ve been on the waiting list now for about 3 years when they announced it’s release…wait list # 32168 to be exact…so again I am not holding my breath…as these baffoons mis yet another opportunity…again…

Missed opportunity.. where??? The Volt is on schedule and will be delivered as promised. What are you complaining about?

As far as China goes, this is business and thank goodness they are making good business choices.

China passed the US as the number one auto-market.

China’s auto-market is poised to grow 55% by 2015. That’s UFB growth.

GM is still the #1 automaker in China.

The Beijing auto show is one of the top worldwide shows now and #1 in Asia.

GM must do well in China.

167

The P.E. Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (9:16 am)

I really like this idea. I, (like others) could really use some fold flat seats in the 3rd row. Bump that seating capacity up to 7 and I don’t have to buy a Tesla Model S.

168

+2

johnnycab Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (9:18 am)

I am saying this on behalf of anyone with taste, “Please stop two-toning leather interiors.”

169

Tibor Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (9:26 am)

The P.E.: I really like this idea.I, (like others) could really use some fold flat seats in the 3rd row.Bump that seating capacity up to 7 and I don’t have to buy a Tesla Model S.

The fold flat seats in the 3rd row are already there!
It sure looks like that…

170

RogerE333 Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (9:35 am)

DonC: I’m not sure we know what the peak battery power is, although it wouldn’t surprise me if you’re right that the peak power produced by the pack is 150 hp. My point is that the peak power of the motor might be something like 450 hp.Power electronics are something you can upgrade. GM would know know how to do that. The battery on the other hand is already at GM’s technological frontier. If you look at the 0-60 times for the Volt, the fact that GM cancelled the Converj because of acceleration issues, and the fact that GM is saying Volec doesn’t scale up for larger cars, and it’s hard not to conclude that the battery is the limiting both performance and the suitability of Voltec to a range of vehicles. (Quote)

Argh, I wish this “limited by the battery” chestnut would just go away… I ran some guesses at the numbers a while ago but let me say it simply. The LiMn cells in the Volt must be at least 20C rate cells, that’s technology from 3 or 4 years ago. That means they can be drained at 20X their capacity without breaking a sweat. So at 20C they can be drained in 3 minutes without heating up much, or their voltage dropping. So unless the Volt is capable of draining its batteries in under 3 minutes, it is NOT limited by the batteries. Maybe under the hardest of momentary acceleration it might approach the limit of the batteries, but I bet it never goes over. The battery is not limiting the power. The wind of the motor and the load on the motor determines the current draw here.

And elsewhere… yes the motor size matters, if it didn’t they would use a motor the size of a pop can. Power = watts. Watts = volts * amps. A larger motor lets you increase both volts and amps. The efficiency of the motor determines the amount of heat generated, and your cooling system limits the amount of heat you can get rid of. Heat is the limiting factor on how much you can crank up a given motor.

And for the lighting, I believe having blue lights is illegal, at least in the US, since that is the color the police use. There are also limitations on red, although obviously that is OK for brake lights.

I agree, It looks like they are there, it just doesn’t say so in the specs. The photos probably have the seats in them but they will not be in the China model because Chinese families tend to have fewer members and will not need seating for 7.

172

Sonama Richard Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (9:58 am)

I would buy one of these in a heart beat; even before a Volt. This would be great for hauling our two Goldens around.

Cool cartoon. “Too true to be funny”, as my old Daddy used to say. Thanks. +1

174

RogerE333 Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (10:02 am)

The P.E.: I agree, It looks like they are there, it just doesn’t say so in the specs. The photos probably have the seats in them but they will not be in the China model because Chinese families tend to have fewer members and will not need seating for 7. (Quote)

I hope this doesn’t come across as racist or anything, but don’t they keep grandma/grandpa, and mom/dad around more than we do?

In any case everything I’ve seen so far is just a computer rendering, not sure I’d waste the time analyzing it to death. A week from now they’ll probably have some new renders with a different layout. When there’s actual hardware, call me.

175

Noel Park Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (10:07 am)

LauraM: I would buy a Toyota before I would a GM car made in China. I wouldn’t even rent one if I could possibly help it.

#104

Amen. +1

176

Rashiid Amul Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (10:08 am)

Dave K.: Will the Volt-line production lighting be yellow and not the usually illustrated blue?

I really like to blue better. Yellow is so cliché and the blue is simply beautiful.

177

+1

LauraM Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (10:20 am)

Dan Petit: Japan is not that much more of a democracy than is China. I lived in Japan as an intelligence analyst and can tell you right now that Japan is just a smaller version of China with more open voting characteristics, and, since the US conquered them in WW2, Japan is merely more involved with the world because of the ways we were able to force them to be open with the world. The two countries have the very same internal demands due to their overpopulations.

First, the yen floats against the dollar. Second, I haven’t heard of Japan slaughtering any ethnic minorities or political dissidents recently. Have you? Third, Japanese medicine doesn’t involve decimating populations of endangered species. Fourth, they don’t cheat when it comes to environmental standards. Fifth, they respect our intellectual property laws. Sixth, their GDP growth is much less carbon intensive than Chinese GDP growth. I haven’t heard of them building any coal fired plants recently. I could go on…

Dan Petit: We have the dilemma that we want decent paying jobs, but generally, there is so much media that purports to be “current” and “valid”, that the American student is nearly totally unable to sift out what would be helpful for job-valuation wage wise. Even just 5 years ahead of when that training needs to be put into place for whatever decent paying job remains available, the training becomes obsolete.

The big problem with automotive training, for example, is that the rate of obsolescence is three years. When a shop owner pays for training, the expectation that the content be long-lasting is partly correct if the techs are ever discovering the basic physics applications for the new systems. The point is that the returns on investment must be immediate, and the content immediately relevant to the live problems presented in the bays for decent paying jobs to pay.

You can’t just be good or very good, you have to actually *be* relentlessly outstanding all the time for a decent wage nowadays.

Not everyone can be relentlessly outstanding all the time just to have a job. That’s insane. Especially given the wages involved. And if Americans need retraining, so do people from other countries. The problem is that they’d rather train cheaper labor overseas. And if Americans can’t get the training they need, they’re ultimately not worth as much as the cheaper overseas labor.

It’s a vicious cycle that’s going to end with Americans having a lower standard of living than say, India’s current standard of living. And an American, I have a huge problem with that. The American standard of living has to go down. There’s no way around that. It was artificially inflated for too long. And the sooner we start living within our means the better. But not that far down. Not if we can help it.

The idea of permanent growth so that everyone in the entire world winds up with an American standard of living is a fantasy. Maybe someday if there are massive unforeseen scientific breakthroughs. But not now. And probably not for a very long time.

178

+1

Bill Willitts Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (10:24 am)

Now you tell me, I just ordered the Nissan-Leaf

179

Noel Park Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (10:26 am)

johnnycab: I am saying this on behalf of anyone with taste, “Please stop two-toning leather interiors.”

#168

Amen. +1

180

CaptJackSparrow Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (10:31 am)

On the battery power delivery thing, for those interested. The batt pack does not lack the ability to drive a more powerfull AC traction motor.
Consider this, when in EV mode it can deliver ~111Kw of power (336VDC “nominal” * 330.357A)
Now the batt pack is 40AH so we have 330.357A / 40AH = 8.25C. So the discharge rate is 8.25C
The current cells are most likely rated beyond 10C. That’s an easy number to calculate so if a 40AH pack can deliver 10C you have 40AH * 10 = 400A of power delivery or 134.4KW. That’s ~180HP. Of course that’s “HP” but we all know torque is the factor we all like.

For kicks if the cells can hit 15C, I’m pretty sure they can, you would get 201.6KW or 270HP.

Personally I don’t think the batt pack is the limiting factor, I believe it’s the power electronics.

JMHO

181

LauraM Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (10:32 am)

nuclearboy: As far as China goes, this is business and thank goodness they are making good business choices.

China passed the US as the number one auto-market.

China’s auto-market is poised to grow 55% by 2015. That’s UFB growth.

GM is still the #1 automaker in China.

The Beijing auto show is one of the top worldwide shows now and #1 in Asia.

GM must do well in China.

It might be the number one auto market in the world. But it’s not the most profitable. Especially given that GM has to share the profits with SAIC.

And success there right now and success in the future are two very different things.

That said, I wouldn’t be so sure of that growth if I were you. China can’t post 10% growth forever. And they’re starting to bump up against some significant obstacles.

182

Dave K. Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (10:33 am)

RogerE333: And for the lighting, I believe having blue lights is illegal, at least in the US, since that is the color the police use. There are also limitations on red, although obviously that is OK for brake lights.

Thanks for the info.

=D-Volt

183

+1

mitch Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (11:24 am)

LauraM: It might be a lot harder to build it meeting North American safety standards. I would assume that Chinese cars are a lot lighter without the extra safety precautions. So they can be bigger and yet more efficient. That said, the pessimist in me can’t help worrying that North America is losing influence even as a marketplace. (Quote)

Laura.

Last year China topped the world as an automotive market, 13 million vs 10.5 M for the USA, it is only going to get bigger. Last year China raised more people from poverty thatn the entire population of the USA, that is the potential market growth, the entire US market in one year. China could to 20 million car sales a year.

yes, the US is losing influence. it is no longer the largest market, and will likely not be again for a long long time…

184

+1

Noel Park Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (11:43 am)

LauraM: I haven’t heard of them building any coal fired plants recently.

#177

While I realize that it’s just as important for China to minimize its oil consumption as it is for the U.S. to do so, I can’t get over the image of all of these things being powered by coal fired power plants with very limited emissions controls. Some days 25% of the particulate air pollution in California comes from China. Another form of “globalization”, I guess.

It puts me in the mind of the cartoon posted by Jeffhre at #59. Too true to be funny.

I can only second your comment about standards of living around the world seeking the lowest common denominator. The logical end game of “globalization”, IMHO.

On the other hand, there was an Earth Day program on PBS the other night. They interviewed a biologist who likened man’s presence on earth to microbes presence on man. If the invasive orgainsms do too much damage, the human body’s immune system attacks and tries to kill them off. He suggested that the planet may do the same to us at some point. Probably by turning our own environmental insults back upon us.

I wonder which will happen first?

185

Grouch Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (11:54 am)

George in Berkeley: [WOOF!]Finally, a machine for me.[WAG WAG WAG]But…the tailgate glass has to lift up separately. When my master goes shopping (the nerve!), it can get really hot…and cracking the windows just doesn’t cut it.I need air![WOOF!]And a ramp.A little pull out ramp.I’m an old girl (aging beatifully, except for that large, furry wottle) and my four hips just don’t work like they used to.And a built in water bowl.Don’t know ’bout you, but all that panting MAKES MAMA THIRSTY!Sure glad I don’t have to wedge my matronly canine rear end into a bucket seat no mo’[DOUBLE WOOF!]

If your master were a Prius-driving hippie, you might be less concerned. One of the neat things about a hybrid is that you can leave it “idling” in the parking lot with the A/C on, and the engine only runs for a few minutes on the hour. Or, with this vehicle, the A/C will just deplete the battery much more slowly than driving — so if you happen to live near the shopping center, your master can still keep you comfortable without burning gasoline.

A better solution, though, would be social change that allows dogs to accompany their masters while shopping. I mean, your master can take a screaming poopy baby into any restaurant or store, but a well behaved and articulate dog is not allowed? If dogs weren’t so darned loyal, they’d be out on the streets demonstrating against this injustice.

186

RogerE333 Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (12:35 pm)

CaptJackSparrow: On the battery power delivery thing, for those interested. The batt pack does not lack the ability to drive a more powerfull AC traction motor.Consider this, when in EV mode it can deliver ~111Kw of power (336VDC “nominal” * 330.357A)Now the batt pack is 40AH so we have 330.357A / 40AH = 8.25C. So the discharge rate is 8.25CThe current cells are most likely rated beyond 10C. That’s an easy number to calculate so if a 40AH pack can deliver 10C you have 40AH * 10 = 400A of power delivery or 134.4KW. That’s ~180HP. Of course that’s “HP” but we all know torque is the factor we all like.For kicks if the cells can hit 15C, I’m pretty sure they can, you would get 201.6KW or 270HP.Personally I don’t think the batt pack is the limiting factor, I believe it’s the power electronics.JMHO (Quote)

Thanks for the confirmation Capn, although I have to admit I made a mistake. I should have said, “Unless the Volt can empty its battery in under 90 seconds”, I forgot that it only uses 50% of the actual battery capacity, duh. If you are drag racing, then you probably want A123 cells (search Killacycle), for the rest of us regular lithiums (or LiMns) have more than enough current capability.

I still like my fuel pump analogy — yes it can be a limiting factor if not large enough, but having way more than large enough does not increase your power.

In general, again, the limiting factor for electric motors is generally the generated heat and getting rid of it. I suppose one could have a motor the size of a pop can in a Volt, but you would either need some expensive technical magic for 99.5% efficiency, or else liquid nitrogen cooling.

It will be nice when the true technical details of the Volt powertrain come out. Or maybe it will start a whole new round of confusion, new urban legends, and arguments?

187

LauraM Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (1:34 pm)

mitch: Last year China topped the world as an automotive market, 13 million vs 10.5 M for the USA, it is only going to get bigger. Last year China raised more people from poverty thatn the entire population of the USA, that is the potential market growth, the entire US market in one year. China could to 20 million car sales a year.

The US market used to be around 17 million. That’s probably the result of a bubble economy. But it could go to 13 million again easily. And we spent a lot more per car. And GM doesn’t have to share the profits they get from this market.

mitch: yes, the US is losing influence. it is no longer the largest market, and will likely not be again for a long long time…

That’s not inevitable. At the very least, IMHO, we should stop helping them gain influence at our expense.

188

+1

LauraM Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (1:45 pm)

Noel Park: I can only second your comment about standards of living around the world seeking the lowest common denominator. The logical end game of “globalization”, IMHO.

Actually, I think the standard of living for many Indian and Chinese citizens will go up. At least until the environmental damage catches up with them. But they have too many desperately poor people to adequately care about the future. Not that we do such a great job of that either…

But unless we do something to preserve our standard of living, we’ll go down below India’s current standard of living. As opposed to the future higher one. At least in terms of the percentage of the population who’s homeless and hungry. All over the country people are losing the battle to stay on the edges of the middle class. Our rates of homelessness are increasing at a much higher rate than in previous recessions. (It was increasing before the financial crisis even hit.) There was an article recently in the New York Times saying that 1 in 6 households in the US are now “food insecure.” It’s pretty scary stuff if you look at the margins.

looks like a toyota matrix ,good job gm copying junk crossovers ,
Just make your own and not copying someone else.
lets hope it does better than suxie toyota

190

engineer Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (2:51 pm)

Personally I am not a crossover kind of person, wagon yes, cross over no. But I do applaud it for diversifying the Volt powertrain.

191

RogerE333 Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (4:34 pm)

Hey I take back my “only computer renderings” comment, see green-dot-autoblog-dot-com (aren’t they one of those links which gets zapped here?). An actual piece of hardware. Of course that doesn’t mean that it’s functional but at least the bodywork is out there in the real world.

Now I’d like to see somebody overlay a sideshot of this vehicle and the “early-production” Volt, at the same scale of course (is the wheelbase the same??) to compare the relative sizes.

The vehicle itself doesn’t do that much for me, but what the hey, others may like it.

Oh and regarding my comments about battery currents, obviously despite the cells’ ability to deliver currents, there could be other factors inside the pack limiting the maximum current, such as the wire gauges used. And even if you scale back to an extremely conservative 10C discharge, that’s still discharging the battery in 3 minutes — no way the Volt could ever do that I think. So for the nth time — the battery technology is not the limiting factor for the car’s power.

192

Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (4:53 pm)

LauraM: The American standard of living has to go down. There’s no way around that. It was artificially inflated for too long. And the sooner we start living within our means the better. But not that far down. Not if we can help it.

Exactly right. Good riddance to McMansions, Hummers and 5-dollar lattes, but will we be able to hang onto the important things like quasi-universal sanitation, refrigeration and education?

Not without some carefully measured degree of protectionism, is my own reluctant conclusion. Protectionism is always a bad thing, but it’s not the worst of all possible things.

Harsh medicine with nasty side effects is sometimes the right prescription. I think this is such a time.

193

smartone Says

Apr 23rd, 2010 (5:55 pm)

Something I have been thinking about in terms of Voltec system.

To me the barrier to EREV is the idea that one has to plug the car in every day.

Has there been any thought to making the battery pack larger and the gas engine smaller?

I would think if they could get to 100 MPG in battery pack and then the gas engine only giving let’s say an additional 100 miles might actually be more like a normal ICE car

A Motorist in the US goes to the gas station an average of 6 – 8 times a month – about 2 times a week. With 100 mile range a user might charge their car every 2 or 3 days. Instead of every day. Plugging the car every 3 days will make it 10 times a month a user will have to “fill up” their electric vehicle. This will make the experience much closer to current ICE autos

I fully plan to buy a Volt, but given the choice I would pick this MPV without a second thought. I have a Mercedes B200 Turbo right now and that MPV looks to be a nice upgrade from that.

Come on GM… bring this one to Canada… Calgary specifically

195

Steve Says

Apr 24th, 2010 (12:33 pm)

If both were available today I’d say it’d be a tough choice. Do I really need something bigger (sometimes it would come in handy) and give up some economy, or just go with the smaller car.

196

Daniel B. Says

Apr 24th, 2010 (1:38 pm)

I am extremely happy to se that GM is running in the right direction. It has now become my life’s goal to own a Volt, everything I do from this point on will enable me to own a Volt.

197

rob Says

Apr 24th, 2010 (7:24 pm)

With 1 couple, 1 child rule this vehicle is wasted in CHINA! To say the least that China is not an ally or partner. US companies need to drill that into their heads. In the meantime, please release this for US Market. We friggin’ bailed you out, then you go create the ideal car for American families and send it to the communists. I’ll just get a Leaf, if you keep this bravo sierra up.

198

Ken Grubb Says

Apr 24th, 2010 (7:35 pm)

I have resolved not to buy new unless it plugs in.

Ideal combo for me and the wife is an EV (which will likely be a Nissan Leaf) and a PHEV or E-REV to replace our Saturn Relay minivan. I’ve rather have something a wee bit larger, like the size of a Mazda 5 or Dodge Journey which seats 6, but I would very seriously consider the Volt MPV5.

Good on ya, GM. There’s hope yet for a triumphal return.

199

Dan Petit Says

Apr 25th, 2010 (9:41 am)

For Laura @ 177. I have waited for the thread to move on so that this one will not show up primarily.

Your post at 177 has too much to transfer into this one.

You said: “Not everyone can relentlessly be their best just to have a job”… “that’s insane”.

You really have vainly reduced the point I had made just so that you could argue negatively.

And, I regard the statement with the word insane as an unprofessional slander. Why?

Laura,
I earn $124 per hour teaching live diagnostics . That’s a thousand dollars a day. I have a a 5 to 7 day work

**********
month. (I post late also, so as not to appear promoting, but to state facts).
**********

I have taught 194 independent auto repair shops at this very same rate of pay.
What makes this more than a decent paying job is that I strive every day, data-gathering
for the real truth regarding real problems on real work orders in real shops employing real techs that really want to remain employable. Reality is not insanity, Laura, shame on that statement. That’s slander as I see it. Can you diagnose your own vehicle? Of course not, you’d call *that* crazy, wouldn’t you. Encouraging others to begin to learn how to diagnose the
***********************************
hundreds of millions of vehicles out here
***********************************
which hardly anyone can diagnose correctly is desperately-needed.

Instead of realizing any of this, you have thrown out everything unrelated and unactionable on our direct parts including the kitchen sink.
Instead, you describe all manner of things we can not directly ourselves immediately change, and, you unwisely fail to represent the difference very clearly. Instead of encouraging positive change for intellectual improvement effort-wise, you are clearly giving everyone who read your post at 177 excuses to make excuses. Those are called “conversion reactions”, which are a maladaptive coping strategy in pointing out the guilt of others (the Chinese) in order to deflect attention away from the common guilt in ourselves for failing to improve ourselves (our chronic national intellectual underachievement).

Excellent “excuses” for what everyone else does wrong really never get anyone excused for nationalistic motives. “Not everyone can be….” is a surrender to failure, and fully one third of the populace (including statistically one third of the shops) have given up new learning (which can set them all up to become burned-out all the more), as they behave like “we’re no worse than anyone else”. (OH yes in fact those shops are, they become the worst of all as they fail to budget for technical advancement even in small 3 hour segments, which is their very most important responsibility, which by the way, where completely relevant, immediately pays back 100% of that small disbursement as we work together on the live vehicle diagnostics!!)

I am making positive changes to technician’s every day. Every workday for the last 5 years as of my 5th business anniversary last Wednesday the 22nd. Tackling reality is not insanity, it is exactly the opposite!

Negative talk is cheap for more than at least one reason, in more than one way.

That the Chinese are rapidly adopting electrification any way they can tells us that America is very distracted and self-absorbed is the *most* accurate way to look at it.

Our “dreams” go right down the sink drain when we rest on our laurels the way we have nationally and nationalistically had, for too long a time. Being competitive does not regard who has the most emotion-rendering critique, it regards those who quietly outperform all others. (I see this in our current administration, which I appreciate greatly).

Will decent paying jobs be needed for people to buy Voltec vehicles? Of course. It’s supposed to be the reason why we post here, to help in any way we can for more people to get into Voltec vehicles.

“We have found the enemy, and it is [in] us”. [Not “them”].

200

+1

me Says

Apr 25th, 2010 (7:45 pm)

As much as I like the volt, the powertrain is what really sets it apart. To see this powertrain applied to a vehicle that would really suit my needs (I really need a wagon of some kind) changes me from an interested reader to a potential buyer…

GM, build this thing.

201

+1

Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says

Apr 26th, 2010 (9:11 am)

Dan Petit: to deflect attention away from the common guilt in ourselves for failing to improve ourselves (our chronic national intellectual underachievement).
Excellent “excuses” for what everyone else does wrong really never get anyone excused for nationalistic motives. “Not everyone can be….” is a surrender to failure, and fully one third of the populace (including statistically one third of the shops) have given up new learning

Dan, I sympathize with your feelings, but I think you’re not seeing the scope of the problem from where you stand; automobile repair will certainly be one of the last fields to be replaced by cheap foriegn labor.

When they started replacing my co-workers with cheap foreign replacements, I started a master’s degree in something completely different, so as to have a Plan B ready in case I got engulfed in the wave. I finished that degree (straight-A, top in my class) and now I’m taking further courses in a related field to give myself the “icing on the cake”. Meanwhile, my “day job” is hanging in for now, but getting shakier all the time.

My Plan B is to teach, in a liberal arts specialty. But from where I sit, I can see that education, per se, is not the answer that people think it is. The crude fact of the matter is that there is a reason we are offshoring technical and scientific work to countries that can do that work much more cheaply precisely because they spend much, much less on education, and educate much, much fewer of their people than we do. The very few people they do educate, they educate quite well; those are the people we’re directly hiring. But those people are able to live and work more cheaply than any American could, primarily because their economy is not burdened with the overhead of, e.g., teaching their future garbate collectors to solve quadratic equations.

If a well-educated, well-trained, well-equipped American rank-and-file work force is five times more productive per man-hour than the foreign competition, but the uneducated, poorly-trained, much-less-productive foreign competition works for ten cents a man-hour (and I’m not exaggerating, in certain countries), then all but luxury high-end work will inevitably flow to where it can be done cheapest.

Dan, you’re good at what you do, and for now you make good money doing it. But don’t think in the long run you can’t be replaced by a PhD from IIT who’s half as good as you are — but can live on a tenth the money.

202

Perry Chappano Says

Apr 26th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

This makes much more sense than the Volt

203

Brian Fraiser Says

Apr 26th, 2010 (2:24 pm)

The idea is brilliant … but someone needs to fire the design team.

A brilliant idea can be buried and spoiled by such a boxy and un-stylish design.

Please look to BMW or Porshe for deisgn themes and not the Asian market please oh god please !!

204

Walter Says

Apr 26th, 2010 (2:57 pm)

I like it just like it is. I wasn’t sure about the Volt but I WOULD BUY THIS! When is it comming out.

205

Walter Says

Apr 26th, 2010 (3:08 pm)

As for all those critics of “style” being old. The point is – people buy these because of the room – to get the room you have to have somewhat of a square box. I think this box is about as stylish as they come without sacraficing room. Also most of us that buy these use that room. Those of you who want Porsche or Mercedes styling most likely want it for an ego trip. At least all those I know do. All they every want to talk about is how much their Mercedes or Porsche cost and how highly they are rated – none of them every use them for loading things or traveling.

206

+1

RogerE333 Says

Apr 26th, 2010 (3:44 pm)

Fahrvergnugen Fanboy: precisely because they spend much, much less on education, and educate much, much fewer of their people than we do. The very few people they do educate, they educate quite well; those are the people we’re directly hiring.

Hmm, something tells me you’re not a fan of “no child left behind”! I think I agree with you though, when I was in high school there was about 1/3 of the class who deserved to be left behind, rather than dragging everybody else down to their level.

IMO the educational system in this country is messed up when 90% (just my guess) of the graduate school students are foreigners. Our teachers keep saying, “Give us more money and then we’ll do a better job”, but I don’t buy (pun intended) that. I’m just kind of glad I don’t have kids.

I also question the loyalties of the foreign-born professionals we hire so cheaply. Just today I had the VERY common occurence of an Indian fellow driving his beloved Toyota with a GM Tech Center tag on the rear-view mirror, behind me. So we take this guy from India and give him a great paying job at GM and a GM Employee Discount, yet he still buys a Toy. Nice. Not a slam on Indian people, I know several and they are wonderful people, but I’m a bit bothered that they refuse to buy the products of the American company they work for and are paid so handsomely by. Come to think of it, I feel the same way any time I get a Lexus or Acura with a Tech Center tag behind me, regardless of the nationality of the driver. If GM products are not good enough for them, as employees, why should I buy one?

Sorry for the off-topic rant. FWIW, all the new vehicles I’ve ever purchased have been GM products.

207

LauraM Says

Apr 27th, 2010 (1:26 am)

Dan Petit: You really have vainly reduced the point I had made just so that you could argue negatively.

And, I regard the statement with the word insane as an unprofessional slander. Why?

I know that this is really late, but I didn’t see this until now. I hope you see this. (And I will post it again at the end of today’s main post.) What I meant was that the situation was insane. And that it can’t work. Not that you are. I’m really sorry for the miscommunication. Sometimes words don’t come out the way I think they do.

For what it’s worth, I do agree with you that it’s important to keep up with training. However, I don’t think that that training is being to offered to American workers anymore. Most companies would rather spend their money on training cheaper overseas replacements.

My point is that not everyone is capable of being at the top of their class. And India and China have a lot of smart people. We can’t expect every American to be smarter than the average Chinese or Indian person. Since they only educate a select few, they tend to be the smartest. And it’s a lot easier to train people when you can focus on the the best students in the class.

Expecting every American to keep up with that, no matter how hard we try, is unrealistic IMHO. But we need everyone in America to have a job. Or at least the vast majority. Not just the truly exceptional and/or just lucky few.

208

LauraM Says

Apr 27th, 2010 (2:03 am)

LauraM: Expecting every American to keep up with that, no matter how hard we try, is unrealistic IMHO. But we need everyone in America to have a job. Or at least the vast majority. Not just the truly exceptional and/or just lucky few.

All right I just read that over, and I need to clarify again. I don’t think it’s unrealistic to want to improve our educational system. We could always improve our educational system. We can always try harder. And, yes, training is important. (Which is why I think we should have tax credits for training American workers on the job.)

And, yes, many of our problems are of our own making. I’ve said that numerous times here in the past. But a lot of that is hubris in thinking we can give away the store and still make money. We allowed unfair competition because we thought we could prevail under any circumstances. When we can’t.

I had friends in college who had to work twice as hard as I did for worse grades. It wasn’t fair. But no amount of tutoring could have changed that. Some people, in any selected group, are going to be better at any given task than some others.

Resources are limited. You spend it on the best, the way India does, and you’re going to get people who are hard to compete with. Recognizing that the playing field is tilted against American workers doesn’t mean we’re making excuses, we’re recognizing facts.

IBM just laid off its entire American engineering workforce a few months ago. 50,000 people. They told them they could go to India and work for Indian wages, or find another job. That’s not recognizing that the American workforce wasn’t as good as the Indian one. Or the the Americans didn’t want to educate themselves. It was that the Indian one was a lot cheaper. And IBM would rather spend their education dollars in India. For one tenth the cost. And since the cost of living in India is so low for numerous reasons, those Indian engineers would live better than the American ones at the current American salaries.

Do you think that by improving education, we can render the average American 10 times more productive than the best a country of one billion has to offer? And even if we could, what’s to stop India from copying those education techniques?

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RogerE333 Says

Apr 27th, 2010 (9:44 am)

LauraM: IBM just laid off its entire American engineering workforce a few months ago. 50,000 people. They told them they could go to India and work for Indian wages, or find another job.

Wowww, have a reputable link to that story/info? Not that I doubt you but wow, as an engineer that really hurts and seems insane. If this is true, I don’t think I will ever buy anything from IBM again.

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Dan Petit Says

Apr 27th, 2010 (4:18 pm)

Laura,
Your idea of an individual OJT training tax credit is great if it can be streamlined into practicality.
If somehow during the year, where a tech has built up a tax payment (not what he would normally get back in a refund, but, the only against the basic tax owed in the first place,) that would really work. If there could be a direct payment toward seminar tuition, diagnose the vehicle conditions far more accurately right on the job, the shop owner/management also immediately sees a return for those tax credits utilized that same day, far and above what would not have been diagnosed correctly in the first place. Happier customers to be sure.

OJT -On (the live diagnostic) Job Training measured performance could weed out the pretentious and under-rated “training” parties who just want to pass out a certificate to hang on a wall and collect money without earning it, without direct live in-shop benefits immediately profiting.
Direct contracting to field training with live OJT could be very efficient.

Sure sounds pretty practical to me.

The only practical question is that: Are administrations that technically decisive to be able to “know who knows”?

In addition, the less technical someone *is*, the less they are able to *tell* who is far ahead of them or can help them perform for the challenges thoroughly without question. One of the things I (rarely) get critiqued about is for being too far ahead. (It’s always really that they are severely behind).

That has to do with having complete control to individualize the curriculum, and not having a cast-iron limited content which always becomes obsolete every 8 or so months. A nationally-set curriculum is just asking for TOTAL trouble, because that trains everyone to do the same obsolete thing that no industry will or can pay for.

So, DonC had an interesting idea for Venture Capital to move my system out to the mainstream.
Although I would rather do it via an environmental grant of some sort, because the wrong Venture Capital may actually cause the failure of a widespread usage of it.

The answers are right under our noses. They always have been. The highly leveraged mechanisms of consumption-waste outpace the mechanisms of education about ten to one or worse. All the more important to work with the very few that work well. Who would pick up the ball?

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pjkPA Says

May 9th, 2010 (7:07 pm)

This is the Voltec I want. Unless they come out with a more utilitarian version … like the Rendezvous that can take out the rear seats… this cuts down on weight and gives more cargo space… like a minivan.

Volt MPV5 is nice… make a version that you can take the seats out.
Keep all the GM features like stainless steel exhaust…galvanized metal .. alloy brakes with alloy bolts that make changing brakes so easy.. automatic lights… etc.

Good job.

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LauraM Says

May 20th, 2010 (2:48 pm)

RogerE333: Wowww, have a reputable link to that story/info? Not that I doubt you but wow, as an engineer that really hurts and seems insane. If this is true, I don’t think I will ever buy anything from IBM again.

Hi! Sorry this is so late. But I just got back from vacation. (I wrote the previous post a day before I left.) Anyway, I miss typed, and put an extra zero. And I know that’s a big error. And I’m sorry. My only excuse ist hat I was in a rush to reply to Dan Pettit.

Anyway, I heard the original story from someone who used to work at IBM. So he might be exagerating. The closest I found on the web is this article in the Wall Street Journal.