The Hone-Dotcom-Laila political triangle is one of the dirtiest deals in New Zealand political history.

It is as dirty as National-Act in Epsom.

It is as dirty as the Key-Dunne deal in Ohariu.

Frankly, Lalia Harré made me feel sick today when she said “it’s time for New Zealanders to take back MMP”.

That’s because Laila Harré is wrecking MMP.

Hone Harawira is wrecking MMP.

And Kim Dotcom is wrecking MMP.

They are using Harawira’s seat and MMP’s “coat-tail” rule to get a back-door entry into Parliament.

It is a rort.

It is a grubby deal, made all the worse by the fact Harawira holds the Te Tai Tokerau seat – a Maori seat.

The Maori seats are special. They have a unique constitutional role which is to give the Tangata Whenua a place of their own in the New Zealand Parliament.

The Maori seats have been hard fought for.

Never, ever was it envisaged they would be used as a back-door entry for a German millionaire to get his proxy into Parliament.

His $4,000,000 proxy. We should refer to Laila as the four million dollar woman!

Gower is right to point out that this does weaken the case for retention of the Maori seats.

This will give those opposed to Maori seats ammunition to get rid of them.

A referendum on keeping MMP at the moment would be very interesting. Likewise on the Maori seats!

Sadly, the Internet Mana deal has diminished the mana of the Maori seats.

And even sadder too, this deal involves money.

Harawira wants Dotcom’s money.

Annette Sykes wants Dotcom’s money.

John Minto wants Dotcom’s money.

They are all willing to pervert the MMP system for the sake of money and it is a venal deal.

Don’t try and tell me Laila Harré cares deeply about the internet. She cares about getting into Parliament.

Her first press conference was about pretty much every leftwing issues there is, and almost silent on Internet issues except vague platitudes on the importance of the Internet – something that was dated even back in 1996 – when Harre entered Parliament initially.

I have a lot of respect for Harawira, Sykes and Minto. They have spent their lives fighting for what they believe in – for points of principle.

But that respect has been tarnished.

They are obsessed by power, obsessed by money and will trample over the rights of New Zealand voters to get it.

This Internet Mana deal is so wrong.

I feel sorry for all those who signed up to the Internet Party thinking it was about Internet issues. Instead it is merely a vehicle for Dotcom to fund the Mana Party into Parliament. They should be honest and cut out the middle man, and just have Dotcom give the money directly to Mana. Harre is not a candidate for the Internet Party. She is a candidate for Mana. I bet you there isn’t a single Mana Party policy she disagrees with, and she probably doesn’t even know what policies the Internet Party has.

There can have been fewer link-ups in New Zealand politics more cynical and crassly opportunistic than the one just formed between Hone Harawira’s Mana Party and the Internet Party, masterminded and financed by the internet developer Kim Dotcom. There is not the shadow of any principle involved in it.

Before he arrived in New Zealand, Kim Dotcom’s public image was of a high-living, luxury-loving party animal. For all his technical skills, there is not the slightest evidence that either now or in the past he has had a serious political thought in his head.

It is almost certain his only contact with the poor and dispossessed whose interests Harawira purports to represent would have been as employees. Indeed he may be a little startled to find that he is financing the far-left Laila Harre, the newly announced leader of the Internet Party.

As for the internet issues the Internet Party is supposedly concerned about, if Harawira and Mana had any particular interest in them before Kim Dotcom and his money came on the scene they kept very quiet about them.

Sames goes for the Internet Party Leader.

The ultimate composition of the next New Zealand government may wind up in the hands of a fringe collaboration bankrolled by a German fugitive from American justice. New Zealand politics should be better than that, surely.

Harre’s arrival sharpens a dilemma for Labour. If its Te Tai Tokerau candidate Kelvin Davis defeats Harawira, it could cut Internet-Mana’s throat and waste a lot of votes for the Left bloc. The best strategy might be for Labour to go softly on Harawira without actually cutting an Epsom-style deal with him. This would require a U-turn, even if it is done in semi-secret.

I understand there is a huge shit fight in Labour over this. Kelvin Davis thinks that he can win the seat as Hone cuddling up to German multi-millionaires will go down like cold sick with many Te Tai Tokerau constituents. If Davis is allowed to run an aggressive campaign for the seat, he could win it.

But Cunliffe and McCarten don’t want to win it. They need Mana-Dotcom in Parliament. So they’ve decided that they will unofficially not campaign to win the seat. This makes Davis the sacrificial lamb who would love to the MP for Te Tai Tokerau, not a List MP.

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So quite apart from any other aspect, Labour’s decision to soft pedal Te Tai Tokerau is on the same level as accusations about Ohariu and Epsom, but worse as it is in support of an utterly corrupt arrangement. Great! when Grant Robertson was rabbiting on about corruption yesterday (Question 10).

>Harre is not a candidate for the Internet Party. She is a candidate for Mana.

Where do the Greens fit in to this? Harre was a Green Party employee. Norman met with Dotcom several times, after Dotcom summoned him to the fuhrerbunker. Surely there must be a link. Norman needs to come clean here.

Because Dotcom and Internet paid Mana for the number 2 list position. ACT haven’t slipped National any money in order to buy a deal in Epsom. Neither did Anderton and Labour, or the Greens and Labour when they had an accommodation over the Coromandel seat.

I think John Key has to look New Zealanders in the eye and force the dumb f***s to contemplate what could happen in September, and start by saying no deal with Winston.

Picture it – a serene (ish) ship sailing smoothly into the future with Captain Key at the helm, maybe Colin Craig as Cabin Boy, Jamie Whyte in charge of the armoury and the Maori Party running up and down the ropes. And Peter Dunne… I don’t know, he could be in the galley or keel hauled I don’t care.

Or a bunch of pirates going round and round in circles ending up nowhere and knifing each other in the process.

I think Cunliffe & co are stupid if they go slow in Te Tai Tokerau seat –it’ll show they are hypocrites for a start but more importantly if they get into Govt. they will want as small a number of groups as they can to operate otherwise it will be one big cat fight for three years if it lasts that long.

But the party who will be worried the most if Internet/Mana get traction will be the Greens –they rely heavily on the young voters. If the Internet party can push an image of being all about new technology etc. and not just lefty / Mana policies then Norman could have a fight on his hands.

The problem with someone as wealthy as Dotcom, is that with his money he can influence an election way beyond what his 1 vote is entitled to give him, for his own purposes & beliefs. I’m sure he will expect something in return.

Any deals done with Anderton and Labour, ACT and National, United Future and National, have all been done out of a realisation that both parties have a political similarity and a desire to see what they consider to be good government.

KDC is using his stolen wealth to finance a political party motivated by revenge and a desire to get John Key. To him, it’s personal, not political. He does not share the vision of the party he has financed, and is only interested in saving his own corpulent arse.

The Greens will be shitting bricks over this, as both parties are campaigning for the same vote.

The ultimate composition of the next New Zealand government may wind up in the hands of a fringe collaboration bankrolled by a German fugitive from American justice. New Zealand politics should be better than that, surely.

To quote Mr Gump “Stupid is as stupid does” & if enough of middle NZ is stupid enough to vote a L/G/NZF/M/MI govt in we’ll get what we deserve.

… that with his money he can influence an election way beyond what his 1 vote is entitled to give him,

Hone already had his seat in the bag thanks to emotional appeals to tribalism and outright racism, so we’re really talking about whether money=advertising=increased party vote for Mana-Internet, and that’s a connection that’s proven to be tenuous at best in NZ, and even in the supposed home of money-politics, the USA.

KDC is using his stolen wealth to finance a political party motivated by revenge and a desire to get John Key.

Which puts him in the same category as Winston Peters, so that’s a good fit.

Labour-Green are simply hoping they can use the unholy alliance and then dump them – rather like Trotsky with Stalin.

tom hunter (4,162 comments) says:
May 30th, 2014 at 10:13 am
Funny but I don’t see anything in here about the last Electoral Act review, the recommendations to dump the coat-tailing, electoral seat rort, and the refusal of National to do that.

If they campaign hard enough and spend enough money, there is a good chance they can reduce the Greens to under 5%. The very best possible outcome for the country is Mana and Greens both ending on 4% and Davis taking the electorate off Hone. Hard to get upset about that.

If I were Labour, I’d go easy in Te Tai Tokerau. Sure they spend years moaning about Epsom but they’d be stupid not to play the game by the rules as they stand, if they want to win.

The only risk to them is they get stained by the taint that will colour Mana.

Strategically Labour might think about the election after this one and the one after that and any lasting damage to the Labour brand.

But Cunners and the leadership won’t be able to resist the temptation to get their hands on power now. Especially Cunners as he will probably only get this one chance to win before the ABCs knife him for good.

“……The Hone-Dotcom-Laila political triangle is one of the dirtiest deals in New Zealand political history.
It is as dirty as National-Act in Epsom.
It is as dirty as the Key-Dunne deal in Ohariu.
Frankly, Lalia Harré made me feel sick today when she said “it’s time for New Zealanders to take back MMP”.
That’s because Laila Harré is wrecking MMP…….”

So what’s fucken new – National and Labour have been doing the same by hiding things behind the private members bills; prostitution, smacking, same sex marriage – and soon euthanasia!

You can always vote for the Conservatives if you don’t like ‘tolerating’ ‘progress’!

Harawira was a 90% certainty to win Te Tai Tokerau before this deal. That has maybe been knocked back to 80%. Given that, what will be the effect of the deal?

a) Internet/Mana will be the Alliance reincarnated, but with a ton of cash: hard left-wing pure and simple. It will take votes from Labour and the Greens but not from National. So no net gain to the broad left, except maybe what extra turnout can be stimulated purely by the extra cash (probably not much).

b) the better they do the more repellent the idea of a left-wing coalition will become – in terms of its policies, its personnel, its principles, its coherence and its ability to provide stable, effective Government. So it will cost the left votes, as moderates switch to National or stay at home. Viz – it actually boosts National’s chances of winning

c) if the left did manage somehow to win, it would have a vital block of MPs beholden to Dotcom and his cash and eager to do his bidding on matters like, oh for the sake of example, extraditions.

All this certainly casts a strong light on Dotcom’s motivations. It is clearer than ever that he does not give a flying f… about New Zealand, good governement, good policies or any of that rubbish. He cases simply about buying some influence, and maybe (if he’s deluded) getting some revenge on Key.

Sorry, not buying the outrage. I won’t vote for Mana or the Internet Party. But I think they have every right to do what they have done. Kim Dotcom can bankroll a party if he likes. Colin Craig does and I don’t see a problem with that. Hell, how much has Alan Gibbs given to ACT over the years?

Similarly, Mana and Internet can try to stitch up a deal using the coat-tails provision if they like. National is fond enough of ACT and United to gift them seats and will probably do the same for Colin Craig.

We had the opportunity to stop all this after the last election, but apparently there wasn’t a consensus on that.

JC>First time I think someone’s noted this. Come on Paddy.. work still to do.

On the face of it, you’d think that Internet-Mana is bad news for the Greens. However, everything involving Dotcom is bizarre beyond rational politics and Norman did meet with Dotcom on several occasions. So… Did Norman and Harre discuss the Dotcom offer? When did Norman find out that Harre was jumping ship? Surely he didn’t just find out when the Harre thing was leaked the day before the official announcement?

Everything about Dotcom is making NZ look like a banana republic. Can you imagine a dodgy convicted criminal on the run from the law being taken seriously in, say, Germany? Like a Russian oligarch moving to Berlin, making a bad album, deciding it was his mission in life to “destroy” the German government, and spending a dollar per capita to bribe the established parties to allow his minions a safe route to parliament? Germans would tell him to fuck off. Instead, we have slack-brained lackeys like Harre, Peters, Harawira, Norman, Curran, Fisher, Kumar, Thompson, Bradbury, and Edgeler falling over themselves to do Dotcom’s bidding in the hope of being thrown some trinkets.

Well, it would be if Labour had to gift Hone Harawira the Te Tai Tokerau seat in order for him to win it. But they don’t.

That’s because Laila Harré is wrecking MMP.

Hone Harawira is wrecking MMP.

And Kim Dotcom is wrecking MMP.

I thought Patrick Gower was paid to know stuff about politics? Harre, Harawira and Dotcom are using MMP exactly as it was designed, with that design being endorsed by the current government. MMP was reviewed only a few years ago – the public submissions massively rejected the electoral-seat loophole in the existing MMP system, the commission recommended removing that loophole, and the Key government decided to ignore the recommendation because it was benefiting from that loophole. If there’s a group here that can be identified as ‘wrecking’ MMP through this loophole, it’s the ministers of the cabinet that rejected the recommendation to remove that loophole – step forward John Key, Judith Collins and the rest of Cabinet.

I don’t think that there is any need to change any laws as a result of this.

What has to happen is that democracy works.

Those who seek to use loopholes in the electoral laws should not be rewarded at the ballot box.

A clear result where National gets more than 50% of the vote, plus a few extra insurance policies from ACT, UF and the Maori party, while a clusterfuck of cosmic proportions descends upon Labour, Greens, Mana, Internet, NZ First, is what is needed.

The racially divisive Maori seats were not hard fought for. They were readily given in about 1867.
Following the defeat of the Smuts government by racists in 1948, racially divisive law was no longer flavour of the month.
It is on that background that the retention of the racially divisive seats has been vehemently fought for over the past 66 years.

No. No-one with any sense is going to blame NZ for having a few fruitloops. Every country has those. We would only look banana-like IF Kiwis actually voted KDC’s party into power. But that has not happened, yet.

By contrast, the responsible behaviour of the Government in responding to a legitimate extradition request (and it was legit even if US motivations were suspect), admitting the errors in over doing the arrest (in response to US fears that Dotcom might have an army of machine-gun weilding flunkies ready to defend him to the death), and (extraordinary) admitting a technical error on the part of the SIS re the legality of its actions; all cast us in a good light for those with sense to see it.

As usual, Gower is wrong. MMP was a wreck from the time it was introduced.

Coalition politics does not give decisive, leading government. It gives the sort of eternal squabbling and infighting we now have in NZ. It doesn’t suit our welfare state either. Every tiny faction gets hand-outs that suit it. Look at what has happened to ACC under MMP. Extended beyond accidents, and people wage PR campaigns to get damages.

MMP doesn’t suit our ethnic mix with some race-reserved seats. MMP plus representation based on race has given Maori more voting power than their numbers justify. MMP politics have given us the second great ethnic change (the first was the Waitangi Treaty), but this time with no discussion, no consultation, no debate, no say for existing citizens.

Why doesn’t Gower look at MMP’s history. It originated in pre-war Germany and helped lead to a disaster. Amended (with things such as the 5 per cent threshold) in post-war Germany it has worked because Germans, with more cohesive attitudes forged in the disaster of defeat and hardship, have a system that evolved for their politics, their culture, their geography, their ethnic mix. Not for NZ’s.

For NZ, MMP is a crap system. Ironically, under pre-MMP politics, Herr Dotcom would have been on his way to America some time ago.

“So… Did Norman and Harre discuss the Dotcom offer? When did Norman find out that Harre was jumping ship?”

Lets see.. Harre joins the Greens in early 2012 as Issues Director.
November 2nd and 29th 2013 Russel visits Dotcom at the manse.
Dec 2013 Harre resigns from her position with the Greens.
May 29th 2014 Harre confirmed as Internet Party leader.

We are expected the tolerate the crap Epsom and Dunne deals, but we are meant to reject the Dotcom deal?

Sounds rather hypocritical to me? I am no fan of MMP or the Internet Party – but I think its rather pot/kettle stuff when you take golf-games, dinners etc into the mix and then the dirt dealing over the above examples.

Part of me sort of hopes the internet party does get plenty of votes – if for no other reason than to teach the NZ Electorate a lesson, not just about the ridiculousness of MMP, but also about the environment that has allowed the ‘cup of tea’ to be used to manipulate ‘democratic process’ and to let sensationalism and the sensationalist (KDC etc) rule the future of NZ.

They all sicken me – although the amounts vary in what is being spent – it makes not difference – they are all tarred with a very corrupt brush! It is the act of what is done, not the sum of it that is disgusting – more so because the people that do it are those who decide whether it can be done or not.

What if Kelvin got so p..ssed off he left and stood as an independent ? The article says he only lost to Hone by 1000 votes last time. If Maori voters were told the future of the Maori seats were at risk what chance would Hone have ? Kelvin Davis has a chance to really be the hero here.

Physco Milt – IIRC when Act first won Epsom and established a presence in the electorate
it was not “gifted” to them by the Nats.

I do agree that the Nats should have done away with coat tailing and I am suspicious of Judith Collin’s
assertion that this was because they couldn’t get any commitment to meaningful discussions with other parties.

One corrupt act isn’t made better, just because someone else spends more money. It is not the size of it, but the fact that it can be done that is the problem. Whether its a nod and a wink, or a large donation – they both create an unequal playing field and that is not on. If only people could get over their party preference and see the entire picture for what it is, we might actually be a hell of a lot better off.

National should say this is an abuse of the special Maori seats and if they are in power they will have a binding referendum on the retention of Maori seats.

What needs to happen is to get rid of the coat-tail rule and reduce the threshold to 4% and get rid of the Maori seats. If the majority of Maori or even a significant minority felt Maori needed representation they would have it if the could agree amongst themselves.

I agree with you Judith. The University students and their parents will vote for this. National had their chance to get rid of MMP but blew it. Admittedly they held a referendum on it which was marginally for keeping it. For once they listened to the people when during other referenda they have totally ignored the wishes of the people so they could still have got rid of MMP.

They definitely need to get rid of the Maori seats. We have many people of Maori descent in Parliament now so how they can say they are necessary is quite beyond me. When MMP first came in a review said the Maori seats were no longer needed and should be scrapped. A pity they don’t listen isn’t it.

This whole Internet Mana deal is shoddy from start to finish. KDC will certainly have his own agenda and it will be in his interests and not the country’s – that’s for sure. Laile Harre is an intelligent woman (I will give her that) but her views certainly aren’t those of many. She won’t be anyone’s patsy.

“The ultimate composition of the next New Zealand government may wind up in the hands of a fringe collaboration bankrolled by a German fugitive from American justice. New Zealand politics should be better than that, surely”‘

New Zealand politics IS better than that but MMP is not. MMP (at least in its current form) encourages this sort of nasty little gaming of the system by the Hone-Dotcom-Laila 3-way custer f#1k of NZ democracy. We were warned about this sort of thing by opponents of MMP back in the 1990’s.

The Nats should be campaigning on a “Vote for Labour is a Vote for DotCom” strategy.

They need to scare the be bejesus out of marginal middle class Labour voters.

The Nats will need every vote they can get as IMHO IMP will go after the 800,000 mostly GenX and GenY who didn’t vote in 2011. Harre was already working on a Get out and Vote campaign to get them and now ithe KDC $4Million will be able to go hard and get them.

Might even get 300,000 to 400,000 new voter who lack the brains and experience to understand the impact on them if IMP get to be part of a Labour lead coalition.

Sad thing is that GenX GenY will be the big losers as the economy will tank interest rates will go thru the roof and so will inflation as the dollar falls thru the floor.

JC you make a good case
“Lets see.. Harre joins the Greens in early 2012 as Issues Director.
November 2nd and 29th 2013 Russel visits Dotcom at the manse.
Dec 2013 Harre resigns from her position with the Greens.
May 29th 2014 Harre confirmed as Internet Party leader.”
Along with labour who are apparently not going to campaign
There is a lot of dots to join.
And they all lead to a dirty stitch up by the foreign owned coalition of losers.
A different league to John an John having a cup of tea.
Paddy is too one eyed to see that.

This is pretty strong stuff from Gower. Note he can’t resist a dig at Key but at least he’s being consistent in seeing this as the rort it really is. I had not thought about how this devalues the Maori seats. If Gower and The Press’ sentiment is widespread in the media, this will not bode well for the arrangement. The protagonists think that 1 + 1 = 2 (being Mana + Internet Party average polling meaning a 2nd left wing MP) but 1+1 could just as easily equal 1. For each new voter the arrangement attracts to the IP may just as easily repel a matching voter from Mana in much the same way Sue Bradford has been repelled. Furthermore even if 1+1 does = 2, the increase in the vote from Mana/IP could likely come from the Greens knocking them down an MP. Undoubtedly this new bizarre hybrid wants to grow the left’s vote but the Pirate Party in Germany appealed to the young and stole votes off the Greens who also have a good appeal to leftish but unaffiliated youthful voters. The Greens will be spewing at not only the arrangement but of the choice of Laila Harre.

National will poll this closely. If after the initial publicity, the Mana/IP grouping beds down to a polling result commensurate with an additional MP, look for Key to do a deal with Colin Craig in East Coast Bays to prevent the 2-3% to the Conservatives from being wasted thus making the Mana/IP attempt at boosting the centre-left block a wash – a $4million wash. Dotcom couldn’t care less about Mana or its policies, he wants Key out and a sympathetic left wing government who won’t extradite him in. The left love to rail against money-power politics and yet have agreed and endorsed the worst example of this in NZ political history.

JC>Lets see.. Harre joins the Greens in early 2012 as Issues Director. November 2nd and 29th 2013 Russel visits Dotcom at the manse. Dec 2013 Harre resigns from her position with the Greens. May 29th 2014 Harre confirmed as Internet Party leader.

That certainly suggests that Harre and Norman have some explaining to do. So does Dotcom and his paid minions, but their word isn’t worth much so it is probably a bit pointless to ask them.

This might hinge on how as unexpected candidate as Harre came to be the leader. She is hardly a high profile person… more like a forgotten relic of the 90s. It is unlikely that the Internet Party brains trust would have suggested Harre if they were sitting around trying to think of people who would be interested in joining them in a senior role. Especially given that most Internet Party officers are transferees from Mega, rather than political activists. It is even less likely that Harre joined the Internet Party using it’s iPhone app, happy to pay her membership dollar because she was concerned about net neutrality. So… I assume there must have been someone acting in the role of an agent or fixer. Someone who knew Harre and suggested her to Dotcom. Is that Norman? The dates certainly work out.

Are you saying Kelvin Davis is going to campaign in earnest against Hone?

I expect he will – Labour have done so in previous elections. They certainly won’t actively encourage their supporters to vote for another party’s candidate, the way National had to for John Banks and will certainly have to for David Seymour if he’s to stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting into Parliament.

you seem to be of the persistent opinion that National’s core voters can win them the election.
You are wrong. National’s core voters might win them 35% of the vote, but if they are to win the election, it is the swinging voters who they need to impress, just like they needed to on the previous two elections.

Helen captured their votes for three elections, JK has captured them for last two – whoever captures them in this election will get to form the next coalition government. If they swing to Labour/Greens/Mana/IP or NZ1 guess who is going to be the next leader of the opposition?

That’s bullshit, and it’s often presented by Greens and other champions of MMP. Germans adopted their present MMP system in 1949. The Nazis were long gone.

At the start of the Weimar Republic (1918-1933) Germany replaced a first-past-the-post electoral system with proportional representation. It was under proportional representation that the National Socialists (Nazis) formed a coalition that took majority control of the Bundestag, and quickly, with an even bigger coalition passed the Enabling Act that gave the Nazis control of Germany.

The Weimar proportional system under which the Nazis took over Germany differed from modern German (and NZ) MMP by not having individual electorates. All votes were party votes.

It’s worth noting that there were attempts in the 1960s by some factions to replace Germany’s MMP with a British-style first-past-the-post electoral system.

I wonder if Hone Harawira had any idea what he was getting himself into when the likes of Minto and Bradford came aboard the good ship Mana? Harawira represents many things I dislike, but I never had him pegged as a committed Marxist. He’s gone from being Maori activist and separatist to being a bit player in the centre of a hard-left whirlwind of white rich pricks and desperate pinko power-grabbers.

When the Allies made West Germany self-governing again after the war, the German people chose to amend their previous proportional representation system from less than 20 years earlier, with amendments such as adding electorates (and thus you get MMP), and the 5 per cent threshold.

Clearly Gower could not go all out and attack National in this way earlier – as he would have been seen as partisan for the left. So he said little and without much passion. Restrained by his boss, or by fear of an established government?

But as soon as someone on the left does it he launches into an all out attack on ALL the left for not disavowing Internet Mana and refusing to have anything to do with them and this tactic. A bit like a sports fan who loves the way McCaw operates for the AB’s but cannot stand it when the Crusaders play his super 15 team.

And mentions in passing that National has already done the same bad thing so he can seem balanced and non partisan, and a crusader for righteousness in the political process we call democracy.

Yes, I did follow what you said in the 2.12 post, Jack5, but you were talking about after the First World War, weren’t you? I’m talking about what happened when the Allies sat down after the Second World War and devised a system where no one Party would ever be able to rule again in Germany, especially after two World Wars only a few decades apart, and that was MMP. It may not have been identical to ours but was meant to stop what had happened previously.

We certainly know now that under MMP here, no one Party can rule. They have to go into coalition and often the smaller coalition Party is the tail that wags the dog. We have certainly got to an apartheid State now which we didn’t have before. We don’t have a democracy except once every 3 years when we go out to vote. We are not ruled by the people for the people which is what democracy is supposed to be all about.

Imagine the debacle if we are now to have Labour, Greens and Internet-Mana Parties ruling us. This country will be well and truly up the creek without a paddle. It doesn’t bear thinking about but the reality is possibly there all the same.

When someone votes for the umbrella party there will be no indication whether the voter favours Mana or Internet.If the umbrella party is disbanded who can then say which members may legitimately stay in Parliament.
In reality the vote may have been 3% one party, for example, 1% the other but no one will know that – just that overall 4% favoured the umbrella party.

My point is that proportional representation in Germany was introduced after World War 1, but was reintroduced to West Germany in the amended form known as MMP after World War 2. Two of the main amendments were the addition of electorates (as in NZ now) and the 5 per cent threshold.

MMP is a German creation, not something designed by the Western Allies.

Have a look at Wikipedia and I think you will find the Germans played a greater role in the creation and form of their state than you imply. By the late 1940s, the Western Allies wanted Germany on-side for the Cold War.

Wikipedia, says that in early 1948, the United States, Britain France and three western neighbours of Germany – the Netherlands, Belgium, and Lumexbourg debated the future of the three Western occupation zones and decided a democratic and federal West German State should be established. The presidents of the West German Lander, or states, then worked out the constitution, adding points such as keeping reunification on the agenda. They prepared the Basic Law (constitution) drafts, which were approved by each of the lander. Then the German state was created in 1949.

I agree with you that MMP is a coalition system, and in my view that is not a good system of government – or at least not for NZ. Here it has given inordinate power to tiny minorities. It’s a liberal cum multiculturalist cum socialist’s dream, but a disaster in nearly every other way.

Thanks very much for that, Jack5. We live and learn. And yes, I think our MMP system is an enormous disaster for our country. How on earth can we get rid of it? We had a referendum at the last election but I think it had been here long enough for the young people to have been brainwashed that it was a good system. Either that or they thought it was better than FPP but there were other systems we could have considered. I’ve forgotten the one I favoured. They did appear to be a bit convoluted from memory. At least FPP enabled us to get a particular Party in power or voted out but it’s a shame that it seemed to oscillate between National and Labour and not another Party.

Agreed that MMP has been the worst thing to happen to the country in a long while but FPP wasn’t perfect by any means. Politicians could promise anything & go on to to what they wanted anyway safe in the knowledge that they had another three years before they could do the same thing again.

The bullshit & arrogance of the FPP politicians were the drivers that enabled MMP to be foisted on us.

MMP is the worst form of democracy in this country since FPP. And democracy is only better than the alternative as per Winnie of the north.

As for his father Randolph, he who schooled the Tory Party to accept extension of the franchise – as giving more of the underlings the vote would not make democracy worse he assured them. For there would come a time there would be so many underlings they will form their own party and the dastardly whigs will be forced to a choice between being upwardly mobile/aspirational and joining the Tory Party or accept slumdogging it with working class labourers. Thus more democracy would be no threat to the privileged landed gentry of land and titles, for the money loving whigs and the grammar school boys would take their side. Just get a job in government or the city of London to secure ones higher income and wealth in perpetuity.

Southern Raider (1,432 comments) says:
May 30th, 2014 at 10:34 am
Key needs to open the flood gates now. Give conservatives, UF and ACT the nod for electorate seats. Any these three steal off NZ First and Labour will be a bonus.

The gloves are off Key so it’s time to grind these socialists into the ground once and for all. There is too much at risk for NZ

I agree 100%. But Key is too lazy to move his backside off the PM couch. As a result, votes for conservatives which I guess will be about 3.2% will be wasted. May be conservatives, UF and ACT should form a coalition like the one between Hone and FatCon.

Of course and what is more it seems planned, perfectly legal, innovative and imaginative. In a war you do what you need to do to win and the left has come up with a legit way of picking up a 2-3% swing. If DotCom gets his shit together and works out how to tap into the young non voters its all over rover.

John Key needs to be onto this quickly and get these two parties together. Colin Craig will be open minded enough because he will see the opportunity on the right but I doubt if the Act board will see the rocks ahead. As per previous elections they sail merrily on to win one seat.

Forget UF as they are never going to offer any party vote assistance capable of getting another seat.

Gower and KIA’s views are patronising with their claims about the Maori seats, they have no right to be offended on others behalf just because it suits an argument against the new party. This is something like the praise given to Sue Bradford last week, just pure nonsense that Maori shouldn’t be allowed to use their votes in any way they like but rather conform to the views that best suit others. Some thought should be given to the reality that if DC is merely a rich prick looking to control the political landscape that at least he is one that may benefit Maori on the one hand or at least fuel the fire of entertainment. No Maori need look far for ‘rich pricks’ financing or being big dollar backers to other parties, to suggest they should be ‘offended’ by such an opportunity is misguided on the one hand and as I say above patronising on the other. It’s their votes to do what they like with and consider how they will be used.

There are many in the electorate that are opposed to the ‘cup of tea’ sagas. Even some of them National supporters, who see it as bordering on corrupt – a word that has attached itself to the government, rightly or wrongly.

I think Key knows he is going to have to play this one very very carefully – it could rebound on him, but then if he doesn’t, he could be the next leader of the opposition. He’s between the devil and a hard place on this. Perhaps he needs to forget the cups of tea, and play more golf.