This is a discussion on $300 NLHE Live Full Ring: PockeT Ts Straight draw within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; This is a live hand from memory, so bear with me as the action may not be 100% accurate.
Game:
NLHE
Max buy-in: $300
Blinds:$1/3
10 players
Hero:
Stack: $280
Pos: UTG +1
Hand:

Can I fold the flop? You just cbet into 4-players, and got raised. Time to shut it down man.

#3

12th April 2016, 8:11 AM

mbrenneman0 [772]

Poker at: Bovada

Quote:

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Can I fold the flop? You just cbet into 4-players, and got raised. Time to shut it down man.

I think my logic on the call was that the 25$ to call would give me close to the pot odds I needed to chase my straight...

I probably wasnt in the best mindset at the time either, I was a little more than slightly tilted by two shoves that I called and won earlier, where the opponents had no business shoving all in after I found out what they had... Everybody wanted to try to be the bully when they didnt have the cards or the chips to back it up. I probably should have got up after I got on tilt, but I didnt really realize I was tilted until way later..

#4

12th April 2016, 5:52 PM

Omahahahahahahahahhahahah [52]

first, I wouldn't open raise for 5x the bb. I open for $10 in 1/3 games and I think you will find this is significantly more effective than over betting pre, especially if you are *gasp* doing so on the basis of your hand strength. It is important to not very your bets based on your hand strength, but bet more based on pot size and board texture as well as your hypothesis as to opponents holding (your own cards matter too).

C-betting this flop 5 way was a little optimistic. On the river, I mean you might as well call now that you are there and getting the price. Calling getting 6:1 for $25 more is tempting but I'd probably fold here again. I don't like extreme long shot wagers (10:1 against my straight coming in) and this draw is less valuable because when it completes it puts a 1 card straight on the board.

On the turn it is only 4.5:1 or so, so you should only call really if you think he is bluffing, in which case obviously river is a snap. But it's a little unlikely that this guy raised the flop 5 way as a bluff and then barreled off. u lose.

#5

12th April 2016, 6:49 PM

mbrenneman0 [772]

Poker at: Bovada

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omahahahahahahahahhahahah

first, I wouldn't open raise for 5x the bb. I open for $10 in 1/3 games and I think you will find this is significantly more effective than over betting pre, especially if you are *gasp* doing so on the basis of your hand strength. It is important to not very your bets based on your hand strength, but bet more based on pot size and board texture as well as your hypothesis as to opponents holding (your own cards matter too).

C-betting this flop 5 way was a little optimistic. On the river, I mean you might as well call now that you are there and getting the price. Calling getting 6:1 for $25 more is tempting but I'd probably fold here again. I don't like extreme long shot wagers (10:1 against my straight coming in) and this draw is less valuable because when it completes it puts a 1 card straight on the board.

On the turn it is only 4.5:1 or so, so you should only call really if you think he is bluffing, in which case obviously river is a snap. But it's a little unlikely that this guy raised the flop 5 way as a bluff and then barreled off. u lose.

Thanks, good advice. Calling on the turn was definitely dumb... I shouldnt have gotten committed to the pot. A lot of my money invested in the pot faster than I realized.

I folded when he raised all in. Agreed to tell him what I had if he told me what he had. He showed 9h10h.. He had the same draw, but with a pair of nines. I think the only hint I had that he was bluffing was the amount of time he spent trying to read me before raising on the turn. If he had the straight like I thought he did, he might not have thought about it as long. But it was such a subtle thing. There's was no way to be sure.

I think I really need to work on discipline and playing a tight conservative game.

#6

13th April 2016, 9:52 AM

jsh169 [812]

Game: holdem

re: Poker & $300 NLHE Live Full Ring: PockeT Ts Straight draw

You can not tell anyone what sizing to make it correctly, maybe if you live in nit land Vegas, this works, but other places games are much looser and need to make an adjustment for this. A hand like 10 10, you go multiway, your essentially turning your hand into a set mining opportunity, aka losing the vast majority of the time. The flop is probably a fold, I'm not really a fan of the bet either, but it isn't terrible, I don't really think you have implied odds for the few times you actually make your hand.

#7

13th April 2016, 11:20 AM

Beanfacekilla [2,679]

Poker at: Bet Online

Game: Holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omahahahahahahahahhahahah

first, I wouldn't open raise for 5x the bb. I open for $10 in 1/3 games and I think you will find this is significantly more effective than over betting pre, especially if you are *gasp* doing so on the basis of your hand strength. It is important to not very your bets based on your hand strength, but bet more based on pot size and board texture as well as your hypothesis as to opponents holding (your own cards matter too).

C-betting this flop 5 way was a little optimistic. On the river, I mean you might as well call now that you are there and getting the price. Calling getting 6:1 for $25 more is tempting but I'd probably fold here again. I don't like extreme long shot wagers (10:1 against my straight coming in) and this draw is less valuable because when it completes it puts a 1 card straight on the board.

On the turn it is only 4.5:1 or so, so you should only call really if you think he is bluffing, in which case obviously river is a snap. But it's a little unlikely that this guy raised the flop 5 way as a bluff and then barreled off. u lose.

$10 open??? At a $1/$3 live game??? It would be a family pot probably. How is hero supposed to form a "hypothesis" on villains' hands, when he is opening OOP with no information?

How much have you played live?

$10 is a joke on a live table like this. Live games play way different than online (at least everywhere I've ever played live). Raises are usually 5x+, depending on dynamics. I have people call 10x+ opens with rags all the time vs me, and I'm a nit. I am happy my opponents like lighting money on fire preflop. Most aren't paying attention to open sizes, bet sizes, etc. They are only focused on their hand. Level zero thinkers.

What OP should be doing (IMVHO), is paying attention to the game dynamics. He should be opening enough to get 1 or 2 callers (with some exceptions). Some tables are so whacky, there is no raise size big enough. Those tables are rare, but they are tough to play on. In that spot, you could try set mining, seeing flop as cheap as possible.

I hate the c-bet into four villains here. Optimistic is one way of putting it. Hate this c-bet. I would just c/f probably, depending on the action that ensues. We are bloating the pot. We don't build pots with mediocre hands. We try and keep them small. Small hand, small pot, big hand, big pot.

People don't bluff too often at low stakes live games. If you pay attention, you can spot the people who are capable (most are not).

Open bigger preflop. Do not c-bet in a 5w flop like this. Do not call raise with a gutter. If you really think you have the best hand, just ram a raise down his throat, and end it.

And c-bet is $25 into $75ish. The sizing alone could make someone raise you, because they smell weakness.

Raise bigger preflop, $20+, or setmine. Do not bet a board like this unless 3 way flop max (villain dependant 3way. We don't have to cbet). HU, betting here is fine OTF. Bet sizing should probably be 1/2~3/4 pot (if 3way or HU). But once again, dynamics play a role.

10-10 doesn't play very well at a full table (9 or 10 players) out of position. We really have no clue where we are in this hand.

As played, fold flop. Just cut your losses, and give up. We can't control the pot, and we have a mediocre hand. It is tough to even know where we are in the hand. Fold turn. Fold river. Fold fold fold. We aren't going to be good here often. You are just hanging on too long postflop with a hand that is weak. I know it's 10-10, blah blah. It's not a strong hand with that board texture. And the straight isn't even going to get paid off if we hit. We could be drawing to chop, and even beat by Q-10 anyway.

I mean, what do you think our hand looks like to villain? Hero looks weak. Villain probably thinks hero has AK or something.

Just fold. Money saved is money earned.

#8

13th April 2016, 7:34 PM

MinhANguyen [695]

Lol at our opponent "putting us on AK." A lot of fish do that, and it's just so funny.

But yeah, c-betting here 5-way is too optimistic. This flop smashes a calling range, and a lot of hands can continue on this type of flop. It will also be very hard to get to showdown cheaply OOP, even if we do have the best hand. Best to check-fold. 3-way there's some merit in c-betting or check-calling 1 or 2 streets.

Even if we make our straight, we could be dead against Q10. And even if we do make it, it'll be hard to get paid off, especially since we are OOP. You're not really getting good odds either. Since you're OOP, our opponent is probably barreling a ton of blanks/scary turn cards because your range for c-betting 1/3 pot and calling a flop min-raise on a rainbow board shouldn't be too strong.

Think river should be a call though. When he raises to 50 on the flop and bets the same (50) on the turn, he most likely has a weak pair or draw. So when he jams the river, he's really polarized to either T8, busted draws, or a pair + draw turned into a bluff. He never does this with a lone Jack. And when he bets 50 again on the turn, he doesnt really have any two pairs or sets in his range.

#9

13th April 2016, 10:16 PM

mbrenneman0 [772]

Poker at: Bovada

Thanks for the advice guys. Definitely going to review the topic of when to c-bet before going out this weekend.

I think he probably put me on the straight draw after the flop and that's why he felt comfortable shoving.

Question for Minh:
Why does making a bet on the turn the same size as the bet on the flop signify weak holdings?

I mean I know my play showed weakness by slowing down on the turn, but why does his play show weakness? Is it advisable to attack that weakness when, at low stakes, I think a lot of people don't know how to size their bets properly? Especially if I'm still pretty green? Wouldnt it be possible for someone to make that same play with strong holdings?

#10

14th April 2016, 2:47 AM

MinhANguyen [695]

It's just a bet sizing tell, and it's more common live. It's possible he bet 50 on the turn again with a J because he'a scared you have an overpair or a better jack (not super likely but possible). But when he shoves the river, we can discount jacks from his range. Ask yourself: what worse hands would call if you shoved a lone pair of jacks there? Live 1/3 players simply wouldn't value betting super thinly there with something like J10, QJ, KJ, or AJ, especially when the board runouts pretty scary.

The turn made the board even wetter and draw-heavy, and you seem interested in the pot. Almost nobody would bet so small there with a monster or strong holding like two pair+.

"Attacking" weak beats is not the way to approach it. Remember, we bet for value or as a bluff. If you were to raise there, you fold out worse hands/bluffs and get all his better hands to reshove or call. I would have check-folded flop, and check-folded the turn as played. But when you called the turn to chase your straight and he shoves a blankish river, we can further narrow his range. He has a pretty bluff-heavy range on the river. So I think calling there would have been been +EV. Of course he'd show up with T8 a decent amount, but he has enough bluffs in his range to make this a profitable call.

#11

14th April 2016, 3:12 AM

mbrenneman0 [772]

Poker at: Bovada

Ok, I see the logic there. Do you think the shove on the river is the final clue, or is the enough evidence to think he is bluffing when he raised on the turn?

I think he knew I had the straight draw and was thinking that 50$ would give me the wrong odds and would be enough to put me off it.

I wonder what he would have done if I check raised the turn? ... Although im fairly risk-averse so the thought of aggressing like that makes me queasy haha

In the future I will avoid getting involved in such a large pot with a speculative hand. But it is nice to know the tells for a bluff. Especially in low stakes where that kind of loose aggression is common

#12

14th April 2016, 4:45 AM

MinhANguyen [695]

re: Poker & $300 NLHE Live Full Ring: PockeT Ts Straight draw

His range for min-raising the flop and betting 50 again on the turn is something like weak Jx, pair + straight draw, and open-enders like Q10/108. There are a lot of bluffs in his range on the turn, but against his range 1010 doesn't do well. So calling here isn't a great option. We could be drawing to the second best hand against Q10 and lose our stack, be drawing thin against Jx, don't get paid much if we hit our straight, and can get bluffed off the best hand on scary rivers. So check-folding is the better option here.

The river shove is polarizing, meaning he has the nuts or complete air/pairs turned into bluffs. He doesn't have much in-between (Jx for example). And from the turn action, we excluded sets and two pairs from his range. So all that's really left is T8, pairs + straight draws turned into bluffs, Q10 that missed, and maybe a few combos of other busted draws.

I can't really say that the river is the final clue in telling is bluffing exactly. This is because we are playing against a range of hands, not just one specific hand. His range OTT is Jx, straight draws(which are bluffs), and pair + straight draws (which are also bluffs). When he jams the river, we can narrow his range to 108 (the nuts) and busted draws/pairs turned into bluffs (both of which are bluffs).

Check-raising the turn is kinda meh because we fold out all his weak hands and bluffs, and he reshoves or calls with Jx probably. We hold a bluff-catcher; there's no need to turn our hand into a bluff.

I don't think this spot comes up super often, so I don't think you have to worry about it .

#13

14th April 2016, 7:49 PM

mvpnight [28]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

I won't go into to much detail on my opinion
I don't mind the raise to 15$ pre (a little on the high side) as long as your standard raise is to 15$ , when 4 people call and the flop comes with a J its probably a good time to give up 5-way and just check BUT if you want to cbet it needs to be ATLEAST 1/2 the pot so 40$ not 25$, and once he raises its time to give up so I would
Bet 15$ pre
Check fold flop
OR
Bet 15$ pre
Cbet 40$ on flop then fold to the reraise

#14

15th April 2016, 8:57 AM

TimovieMan [2,264]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Texas Holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvpnight

I won't go into to much detail on my opinion
I don't mind the raise to 15$ pre (a little on the high side) as long as your standard raise is to 15$

Do you play much live? Because live this is standard, or even on the low side. Case in point: he got 4 callers.

#15

15th April 2016, 3:48 PM

mbrenneman0 [772]

Poker at: Bovada

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvpnight

I won't go into to much detail on my opinion
I don't mind the raise to 15$ pre (a little on the high side) as long as your standard raise is to 15$ , when 4 people call and the flop comes with a J its probably a good time to give up 5-way and just check BUT if you want to cbet it needs to be ATLEAST 1/2 the pot so 40$ not 25$, and once he raises its time to give up so I would
Bet 15$ pre
Check fold flop
OR
Bet 15$ pre
Cbet 40$ on flop then fold to the reraise

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimovieMan

Do you play much live? Because live this is standard, or even on the low side. Case in point: he got 4 callers.

yeah, 15 was pretty standard for the table at the time. although i wouldn't say its on the lowside or the high side. later on in the night when the table tightened up, the standard looked more like 10, but not at the time of this hand.

#16

15th April 2016, 5:11 PM

mvpnight [28]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimovieMan

Because live this is standard

Yes I do, and just because it is standard doesn't mean he should be doing it a lot of players also play more than 33%of the hands dealt to them....does that mean its standard and we should do it as well? my point :15$ is still a 7.5x! the blinds raise. Don't play like the rest

#17

15th April 2016, 5:36 PM

Beanfacekilla [2,679]

Poker at: Bet Online

Game: Holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvpnight

I won't go into to much detail on my opinion
I don't mind the raise to 15$ pre (a little on the high side) as long as your standard raise is to 15$ , when 4 people call and the flop comes with a J its probably a good time to give up 5-way and just check BUT if you want to cbet it needs to be ATLEAST 1/2 the pot so 40$ not 25$, and once he raises its time to give up so I would
Bet 15$ pre
Check fold flop
OR
Bet 15$ pre
Cbet 40$ on flop then fold to the reraise

We don't ever bet this flop 5w, unless you like setting money on fire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvpnight

Yes I do, and just because it is standard doesn't mean he should be doing it a lot of players also play more than 33%of the hands dealt to them....does that mean its standard and we should do it as well? my point :15$ is still a 7.5x! the blinds raise. Don't play like the rest

If it's 7x, 10x, 3x, hero should be raising enough to get it down to 2-3 callers max. This is dependant on dynamics, and it will change throughout the session.

And why are so many people hung up on this "standard raise size" nonsense? Just because you adjust your raise size, doesn't mean everyone is going to know what you have. This isn't the final table at the WSOP ME. Hero is playing with a bunch of droolers.

You must like playing multiway pots. And be honest, how much have you played live? Even at $1/$2, $10 preflop would be a smallish raise, and $15 is somewhat normal. I have played at tables where I have to raise $22 to thin the herd.

Some of your tips sound like they're from books and forum, not from actual play.

#18

15th April 2016, 6:32 PM

mbrenneman0 [772]

Online Poker at: Bovada

re: Poker & $300 NLHE Live Full Ring: PockeT Ts Straight draw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beanfacekilla

And why are so many people hung up on this "standard raise size" nonsense?

i think its a valid thing to talk about as far as: knowing what the standard is gives insight into what my open is saying. and also, knowing what i should be trying to say with my bet, and how much i need to bet in order to say that.

it sounds like you're saying i should be opening larger than the standard in order to narrow the calling range of my opponents and ultimately get fewer callers with more information?

#19

15th April 2016, 7:05 PM

Beanfacekilla [2,679]

Poker at: Bet Online

Game: Holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbrenneman0

i think its a valid thing to talk about as far as: knowing what the standard is gives insight into what my open is saying. and also, knowing what i should be trying to say with my bet, and how much i need to bet in order to say that.

it sounds like you're saying i should be opening larger than the standard in order to narrow the calling range of my opponents and ultimately get fewer callers with more information?

Yes. But let's define "standard". If you see opponents raising to $15, and getting 4c, and other opponents doing the same thing, that is standard for the table I would guess. What we can learn from this is we can size our raises a bit bigger, get less callers, and more value. Plus it will be easier to navigate postflop with less people in the pot.

And "knowing what you're saying" with the bet (size) is probably not as important as you think. The players you are seated with are going to be mostly level 0 thinkers. They are only thinking about their hole cards, what they can flop, with very little thought given to your holdings. Even if they are thinking about a range for you, I feel it would be an optimistic range that they are beating (in their mind).

I have learned the above because I used to be a fish (still am sometimes, but hey, no one is perfect), and from folding for 90 minutes, raising to $17 with AA UTG, and getting 2c. I feel like my perceived image is so nitty, they HAVE to know I have a big hand. But, they put the chips in with Q-9o, and here we go.

It is much easier to play against 1 or 2 villains, than 3+. So, in my experience, adjusting our raise size based on real-time game dynamics is a must.

However, sometimes we raise to big, and fold everyone out. Then we can dial it back a bit.

It is one of the tips I learned from a fellow player who is much better than me.

#20

16th April 2016, 10:17 PM

mbrenneman0 [772]

Online Poker at: Bovada

Really appreciate all the advice on this thread. I feel like I learned a lot. on my way to the casino to find out if I learned enough :]

#21

16th April 2016, 10:32 PM

Omahahahahahahahahhahahah [52]

Quote:

$10 open??? At a $1/$3 live game???

Yes. I have a general philosophy, which is I make my wagers corresponding to the size of the pot. Nor do I fear multiple opponents calling my bets. Opening for 250% pot when you have a big hand like AA might sound like a good idea because you are scared your aces will get cracked, but this unbalanced strategy is very easy to exploit and you will never win any money like that in the long run.

#22

16th April 2016, 10:39 PM

Beanfacekilla [2,679]

Online Poker at: Bet Online

Game: Holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omahahahahahahahahhahahah

Yes. I have a general philosophy, which is I make my wagers corresponding to the size of the pot. Nor do I fear multiple opponents calling my bets. Opening for 250% pot when you have a big hand like AA might sound like a good idea because you are scared your aces will get cracked, but this unbalanced strategy is very easy to exploit and you will never win any money like that in the long run.

Ok. Have fun playing 7-7-way pots with AA.

#23

17th April 2016, 5:45 PM

Trabendo_daze [416]

Poker at: Brovada

Game: NLHE

$10 in 1/2 is standard to small in my experience, especially from EP or with a couple callers. That's not the mistake OP made, it's definitely the cbet OTF.