Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

How can you possibly say Aikido is more effective or neither if you have only trained in Aikido and vice versa?

Bronson

07-23-2004 03:12 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

I can say it. It would be a completely uninformed opinion but nothing stops me from saying it :D

Bronson

happysod

07-23-2004 03:52 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

I looked at this askance as well, but a survey is about opinion, not fact. What I would like is that any vote by someone who claims knowledge of both has a greater % weight than that by single proponents, aikido or judo.

Clayton Kale

07-23-2004 07:06 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

I'm withholding my vote for the moment. I'm unsure if this means effective as in exercise for the individual or effective as in "most effective way to make uke do a face plant." How do y'all interpret it?

Devin McDowell

07-23-2004 07:13 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

I think they mean the face plant one. Its what a lot of people have been talking about lately, so its logical that's what the survey would mean.

rcoit

07-23-2004 07:51 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

I agree the question is not sufficiently clear to allow accurate interpretation of the responses. I have done both, finding judo to be more like Greco-Roman wrestling- competitive, arduous, and not as focused on re-directing uke as aikido is. Aikido is more effective as a self-defense art and encounters far more different scenarios. So the responses are predictably going to be varied since the meaning of 'effectiveness' is not detailed.

Ron Tisdale

07-23-2004 07:56 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

And in the end, its all rubbish...train in what you like. Enjoy, and remember to breathe...

RT :)

SeiserL

07-23-2004 09:13 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

IMHO, its not the style thats effective, it the practitioner.

Bronson

07-23-2004 09:33 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

For me aikido is far more physically effective...because I don't know judo.

Someone once asked a friend of mine who is a shooting enthusiast what was the best pistol for self-defense, he replied "the one you have". A .22 caliber (small for those non-shooters) pistol in the hands of someone competent in its use is more effective than a .44 super mag in the hands of someone who couldn't hit a barn from the inside :D

Bronson

Michael Neal

07-23-2004 10:23 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

no offense but this is mass delusion

mj

07-23-2004 10:32 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

I'm not even Catholic.

Michael Neal

07-23-2004 10:41 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Really? That's quite shocking.

Imagine...different people having different opinions.

Michael Neal

07-23-2004 10:56 PM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Yes, imagine that.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino

07-24-2004 03:31 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Well, that about sums it up, guys. I thought we were studying a way for people to get along, but I don't see how that'll work so long as these differing opinions keep coming up.

PeterR

07-24-2004 06:56 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Quote:

Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:

Well, that about sums it up, guys. I thought we were studying a way for people to get along, but I don't see how that'll work so long as these differing opinions keep coming up.

Well in my OPINION its the differing opinions that keeps things interesting. And they don't preclude getting along.

Has visions of vacant eyed drones ruling the world.

SeiserL

07-24-2004 12:00 PM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Quote:

Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:

I thought we were studying a way for people to get along, but I don't see how that'll work so long as these differing opinions keep coming up.

Thank you, you illustrate the perfect point.

IMHO, people will never learn to get along if we expect each other to have the same opinions, customs, or ideas. The only hope we have is to learn to express, accept, learn from, and appreicate the differences.

Michael Neal

07-24-2004 12:11 PM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

It is amazing that almost every Aikidoka I have talked to brings up some kind of story about an Aikido master who defeated some unknown Judoka and then converted that guy to Aikido. The story is then repeated over and over again.

Usually we have no idea of the Judoka's experience level or the full details of the event itself, I mean a demonstration of a technique can hardly be claimed to be defeat of a Judoka. "Here, grab my wrist" does not equal randori, sparring, or fighting.

They start threads about how they went to a Judo dojo and tossed them around etc. etc. Then they start a poll to show that most Aikidoka think Aikido is more effective etc. etc.

It is then the Judoka who is a jerk for questioning this and offering the opposite
viewpoint. We are supposed to fall in line and say that both arts are the same, even while they constantly try to hint with their stories that Aikido is superior.

While most Aikido is practiced in manner that is much less rigorous than Judo and with alot of cooperation we are supposed to say that does not matter it is only the individual martial artist that matters.

Sorry, I disagree and I am sorry if that hurts people's feelings but I am just being honest. I never said Aikido sucks or is not good, that has never been my argument at all. My argument from the beginning has been that the training methods of Judo make it more practical.

I am not trying to attack anyoone personally here, as Lynn and Peter said above it is different viewpoints that make things interesting.

Chad Sloman

07-24-2004 02:46 PM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Quote:

Michael Neal wrote:

My argument from the beginning has been that the training methods of Judo make it more practical.

add faster to that. Judo training methods make it more practical faster. I think adding randori from the get-go gives it a steeper learning curve. I wish we could do more randori sooner because I think it would help, but there is a trade-off. Judo had to sacrafice some techniques to make it safe for everyday training. Aikido did not. I believe the shodokan guys can only use certain techniques to make sure that it's safe. So in order to train that way, we have to sacrafice techniques. Or everybody can go back to the "hell dojo" days and then nobody would want to train aikido anymore because it would be more dangerous, with broken limbs, fatalities and all. Besides, different people train for different reasons. I think "hell dojo" would be pretty cool, but I'm sure plenty would not.

mj

07-24-2004 02:57 PM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Ah but Judo is only practical to a certain degree.

Surely the only Martial Art to ban hitting the head?

Like Mike Tyson said...'everyone has a strategy - til you punch them in the mouth' :)

Michael Neal

07-24-2004 03:01 PM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

And Aikido trains hitting to the head? Not really.

Chuck Clark

07-24-2004 04:35 PM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Mr. Neal, I agree with much of what you say. However, you paint with a very broad brush. You might get out a bit more and find out that not all aikido dojo train the way you've experienced so far.

Cheers!

Michael Neal

07-24-2004 04:48 PM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

I am sure you are right, I have been saying that my opinion applies to Aikido in general and how it is usually trained. Of course there are excepetions, there are some Judo dojos that practice very horribly as well.

What it boils down to I think is that it is easier to get lazy in Aikido practice than Judo practice. In Judo if you get lazy you get your ass kicked in AIkido nothing really will happen.

Ron Tisdale

07-27-2004 10:52 AM

Re: Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

Quote:

Michael Neal wrote:

It is amazing that almost every Aikidoka I have talked to brings up some kind of story about an Aikido master who defeated some unknown Judoka and then converted that guy to Aikido. The story is then repeated over and over again.

I have brought up no such story, and several others on this forum haven't either. I have also not repeated any stories. I think you exagerate.

Quote:

Usually we have no idea of the Judoka's experience level or the full details of the event itself, I mean a demonstration of a technique can hardly be claimed to be defeat of a Judoka. "Here, grab my wrist" does not equal randori, sparring, or fighting.

a) if you'd like some details, read the stories about Sokaku Takeda, Mochizuki Sensei, etc. on aikidojournal.com. **I** won't repeat them though... :)

b) I have seen no one say that a wrist grab = randori, sparring or fighting.

Quote:

They start threads about how they went to a Judo dojo and tossed them around etc. etc. Then they start a poll to show that most Aikidoka think Aikido is more effective etc. etc.

Uh, the poll was started by the Aikiweb system (AKA Jun), so this was not the same person who started the judo thread. Peter started the judo thread, and his post was very complementary about judo, and not once did he talk about throwing judoka around because of his aikido. you can read his post here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5996

His last sentence

Quote:

I must say I really like the people I've met doing Judo. No need for posturing - its very clear who can do what to who. You may fight hard but before and afterward - very relaxed.

Tells me that you've read him all wrong.

Quote:

It is then the Judoka who is a jerk for questioning this and offering the opposite
viewpoint. We are supposed to fall in line and say that both arts are the same, even while they constantly try to hint with their stories that Aikido is superior.

Well, I see people giving their perspective, and you disagreeing with it. Your attitude (what some might call being a jerk) is separate from the information you provide, at least in my mind...

Quote:

While most Aikido is practiced in manner that is much less rigorous than Judo and with alot of cooperation we are supposed to say that does not matter it is only the individual martial artist that matters.

Well isn't it the individual artist that matters? If you take someone that doesn't break a sweat in their training and put them up against a world class athelete, why would you expect the non-sweating person to win? Duh... If you take a shodokan stylist who trains 6 days a week, HARD, and put them up against someone who does judo cassually...who do you think will win... duh.... Its kind of stating the obvious.

Quote:

Sorry, I disagree and I am sorry if that hurts people's feelings but I am just being honest. I never said Aikido sucks or is not good, that has never been my argument at all. My argument from the beginning has been that the training methods of Judo make it more practical.

No problem, no need to appologize for disagreeing. More practical for what? The nice thing about judo is that it has some pretty standard practices for training. Pretty much no matter where you go, the standard format will be the same (exceptions might be in the case of kosen judo or dojo that are similarly focused). The level of skill might change, the level of physical fitness might change, but the format is pretty much the same.

I can think of at least 10 different styles of practice that I have seen personally in aikido...some in the same federation! Aikido keiko is simply not as monolithic as judo practice. No harm there.

Quote:

I am not trying to attack anyoone personally here, as Lynn and Peter said above it is different viewpoints that make things interesting.

Quite right...so hold your opinion, accept that some here will not convert to it, train hard, and live well.