I did a quick google search for Wikipedia gun control and came up with a study done in 2008, I wonder if any of the new documents just released have any evidence of the ATF fast and furios or any other setups by the current admin to push an agenda?

Stonewalker

08-29-2011, 11:37 PM

I worry about Wikileaks on the gun control issue. Remember who runs it, a Swedish anti-government ultra-socialist type. I assume he views gun ownership like most socialists do. I'm not sure though, I'm just assuming. Either way, more truth coming out is GOOD for us because we are on the side of truth, and the truth will set you free.

dantodd

08-29-2011, 11:52 PM

I worry about Wikileaks on the gun control issue. Remember who runs it, a Swedish anti-government ultra-socialist type. I assume he views gun ownership like most socialists do. I'm not sure though, I'm just assuming. Either way, more truth coming out is GOOD for us because we are on the side of truth, and the truth will set you free.

I think he's Australian, he just likes Swedish women.

yellowfin

08-30-2011, 2:56 AM

If he's anti government, shouldn't that make him pro gun?

Mulay El Raisuli

08-30-2011, 3:49 AM

If he's anti government, shouldn't that make him pro gun?

Logically, that should be so. But, he's clearly muddled in his thinking. Shown by his holding two diametrically opposed ideas (anti-govt AND socialist) at the same time.

The only showing of any coherence in his thinking is his fondness for Swedish women. Because who doesn't like Swedish women? :)

The Raisuli

NotEnufGarage

08-30-2011, 4:49 AM

Ya'll are gettin' your Wiki's mixed up..

OP's Title says Wikileaks
OP's text says Wikipedia

I think the title is wrong.

6172crew

08-30-2011, 11:26 AM

Ya'll are gettin' your Wiki's mixed up..

OP's Title says Wikileaks
OP's text says Wikipedia

I think the title is wrong.

Iphone likes to auto-correct, I'm talking about wikileaks.

Here is the PDF I was talking about: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fftp.fortunaty.net%2Forg%2Fwikilea ks%2FCRS%2Fwikileaks-crs-reports%2FRL32842.pdf&rct=j&q=wikileaks%2C%20gun%20control&ei=ETldTpa2BM6rsAKY7NAi&usg=AFQjCNHydpMjM9aEjHgRp1oyAj10_sx5ag&sig2=pKxk9CEYDiPKGMkBjtXZxA&cad=rja

6172crew

08-30-2011, 5:21 PM

This guy seems to have his eye on the ball, with a timeline of events that is up to date.

As noted in my time line, diplomatic cables, which were part of the massive amount of classified information Wikileaks obtained and released to the public, indicate that the State Department was fully aware that the majority of weapons recovered by the Mexican government were coming from Central America.

I do not think that Wikileaks understood the significance of these cables, they just released them with a lot of other material. The certainly are not pro-gun or pro-second amendment.

These cables are key to exposing BATFE's bogus figures. They get to their 70 to 90% figures by counting any gun made in the US and any gun that passed through the US as a "US sourced" firearm. This includes weapons sold to other governments.

The first thing that distorts the figures is the fact the only 20% of recovered firearms are submitted for tracing. If a gun has no serial number, or North Korean markings, or any other positive indication that it did not come from the US, it is not submitted for tracing. There is absolutely no indication that this 20% is a representative sample of all guns recovered. This fact alone invalidates the BATFE's figures.

The second problem is where the Wikileaks cables become a critical factor. By counting any firearms that came from the US as "US sourced", they can blame US gun dealers for "US sourced guns" being sold in the Central American black market. An example might be an M16 sold to El Salvador during the 1980s. BATFE would be fully aware of the original sale, but they still count it and imply that it came from a US civilian source. The Wikileaks cables prove that the administration knew where most of the guns were coming from.

They are huge, because shortly after they came out - and the administrations figures were exposed - ATF began "walking" guns over the boarder. Until I see a better motive, I personally will believe that someone decided to boost the number of guns that would trace back to US gun shops.

tankarian

08-31-2011, 7:20 PM

I'm starting to like that Wikileaks.:o
Obama's despicable gang knew since Oct. 2009 the 90% was bullcrap, yet they fed the lie to the media in order to be able to turn the public opinion against the 2nd Amendment.
Here is the secret cable unveiled by Wikileaks: http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=09MEXICO3109&q=mexicocity
And they ordered ATF to start running guns across the border in order to make up the numbers to support their lie.

bob7122

08-31-2011, 7:22 PM

hope something will be done now. hopefully impeachment.

tankarian

08-31-2011, 7:26 PM

hope something will be done now. hopefully impeachment.

Add this information to what Darrel Issa said today on FOX (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=472980) and the picture is becoming even clearer.

robcoe

08-31-2011, 7:27 PM

A politician lied? Seriously? I'm shocked, how will I mangage to cope with this, my faith in the world is shattered[/sarcasm]

five.five-six

08-31-2011, 7:29 PM

it's a non issue, now bush and cheney's alleged involvement? 3 part special investigation starts tonight @9 on all 3 networks

Anchors

08-31-2011, 7:37 PM

Wow. So will anything real come of this?

meaty-btz

08-31-2011, 7:39 PM

Wow. So will anything real come of this?

In this country? Nope. Get ready for 4 more years of hope and change.. or the craptastic Republican version of the same.

CalBear

08-31-2011, 7:43 PM

Thanks for this info. At best, Obama's handling of drug / weapons trafficking in Mexico has been appalling, deceitful and horribly executed. At worst, his handling has been duplicitous, conspiratorial, and potentially impeachable.

Paul S

08-31-2011, 7:53 PM

Wow. So will anything real come of this?

In a word...no.

The fall guys have been named....they will be good troopers...be quiet and be moved along within their new assignments to a top pay grade while the media turns its attentions to the president's soon to be announced jobs initiative.

Nothing to see here...move along. It is politics as usual at our expense. :(

Anchors

08-31-2011, 8:01 PM

Cool. In 1970 this wouldd have caused a public backlash. No one gives a $#!^ anymore as long as it doesn't limit their right to free money.

InGrAM

08-31-2011, 8:09 PM

Cool. In 1970 this wouldd have caused a public backlash. No one gives a $#!^ anymore as long as it doesn't limit their right to free money.

Yep, keep that welfare and ebt going and the sheeple will keep voting for them and not care about what the government is doing... :TFH: oops my tin foil came out a little.

VegasND

08-31-2011, 8:20 PM

I don't think there's anything that can insense today's public into action.

All we're ever going to see is SSDD

swilson

08-31-2011, 8:43 PM

90% quote from near the end:

Claims by Mexican and U.S. officials that upwards of 90 percent of illegal recovered weapons can be traced back to the U.S. is based on an incomplete survey of confiscated weapons. In point of fact, without wider access to the weapons seized in Mexico, we really have no way of verifying these numbers.

Glock22Fan

08-31-2011, 9:10 PM

Thanks for this info. At best, Obama's handling of drug / weapons trafficking in Mexico has been appalling, deceitful and horribly executed. At worst, his handling has been duplicitous, conspiratorial, and potentially impeachable.

Now, why don't you tell us how you really feel?

:popcorn:

Ripon83

08-31-2011, 9:27 PM

Ok, now I'd dearly love to see an actionable offense allowing for the prosecution and impeachment of our current dictator, but that link in the OP....isn't even close to being it. I didn't read a single comment on a conspiracy to run guns to the cartel, and the best thing in that waste of writing is knowing the 90% figure wasn't proven. So why does anyone see this as " it?".

Dreaded Claymore

08-31-2011, 9:33 PM

Ok, now I'd dearly love to see an actionable offense allowing for the prosecution and impeachment of our current dictator, but that link in the OP....isn't even close to being it. I didn't read a single comment on a conspiracy to run guns to the cartel, and the best thing in that waste of writing is knowing the 90% figure wasn't proven. So why does anyone see this as " it?".

This, seriously. All this does is prove that the 90% number was KNOWN to be false by the administration, and we already knew it was fake anyway. I didn't see anything there remotely resembling "let's smuggle guns into Mexico until the lie comes true."

DannyInSoCal

08-31-2011, 9:34 PM

Why is everyone so surprised when President Puppethead's entitlement and welfare fed naive sheep don't ever give a crap...?

Face it - The embarrassment will continue and he'll win again.

Conservatives will take more seats.

Stalemate for four more years of his empty pathetic zero accomplishments rhetoric...

Smoothshifter41

08-31-2011, 9:36 PM

Ok, now I'd dearly love to see an actionable offense allowing for the prosecution and impeachment of our current dictator, but that link in the OP....isn't even close to being it. I didn't read a single comment on a conspiracy to run guns to the cartel, and the best thing in that waste of writing is knowing the 90% figure wasn't proven. So why does anyone see this as " it?".

I read the entire thing too and came to the same conclusion. Maybe I missed something but I didn't read anything incriminating. Sure the 90% line was interesting but where in the cable does it prove that the administration lied about gun trafficking?

guntntteacher

08-31-2011, 9:37 PM

We can only hope this get attention. But I agree four more years of change in my pocket not dollars.

duggan

08-31-2011, 9:41 PM

In a perfect world the AG in Arizona would file charges for conspiracy to commit murder, aiding and abetting, and being an accomplice to murder on all the higher ups involved for the murder of Agent Terry. Then extradite those same individuals to Mexico to stand trial for the same charges but add a couple hundred or so counts. I don't see how any sane person could think an operation like that would succeed per their stated objectives. So on this one I'm going with the tin foil hat guys in thinking that it is a way to vilify FFL's, close gun shows and add more ridiculous bans to the mix.

Hunt

08-31-2011, 10:04 PM

I like wikileaks they are exposing the gov't for what it is. Gov't lies, Gov't steals, Gov't murders, the death toll of ‘civilization’ is incomprehensible.

POLICESTATE

08-31-2011, 10:08 PM

Obama lies, freedom dies.

chillincody

08-31-2011, 10:17 PM

so what operation fast and furious didnt give you all the red flags lol this is old news to me

6172crew

08-31-2011, 10:26 PM

I merged my thread with the one that now has some meat to it, I had a feeling Wikleaks would have something one this. Finestien has been too quiet for too long and you know she is involved as well.

I feel wierd reading anything not de-classified because I had access to classified material when I was active duty but I'd like to read about this if it's leaked.

Anchors

08-31-2011, 11:37 PM

I still don't like WikiLeaks for the record and haven't read any of it. Something like this is an internal matter for our country and certainly needs to go public (even if it was something that didn't further my personal agenda, I would feel that way).

But a lot of stuff WikiLeaks releases is downright dangerous from what I've heard second hand. Somethings (for the sake of OpSec in the military/government) are better left unsaid.
I do not support FULL transparency and I never will.

bob7122

09-01-2011, 6:00 AM

I still don't like WikiLeaks for the record and haven't read any of it. Something like this is an internal matter for our country and certainly needs to go public (even if it was something that didn't further my personal agenda, I would feel that way).

But a lot of stuff WikiLeaks releases is downright dangerous from what I've heard second hand. Somethings (for the sake of OpSec in the military/government) are better left unsaid.
I do not support FULL transparency and I never will.

so tell us how you really feel?

i kid i kid.

I am quite the opposite. I want full transparency, especially when the gov't is doing stuff they shouldn't.

goodlookin1

09-01-2011, 6:18 AM

There is nothing in that Wikileaks document that mentioned anything about Project Gunrunner, or Fast and Furious. It is simply talking about the relationship difficulties with the mexican govt in obtaining complete and verifiable evidence on the ever increasing weapons cache (64,000 since 2006, the beginning of Calderon's administration). It complains of having severely restricted access to the weapons and that the US Govt is not allowed access to weapons related to ongoing criminal court proceedings.

The biggest piece about this leak is this tid-bit of info:

Claims by Mexican and U.S. officials that upwards of 90 percent of illegal recovered weapons can be traced back to the U.S. is based on an incomplete survey of confiscated weapons. In point of fact, without wider access to the weapons seized in Mexico, we really have no way of verifying these numbers.

But we already knew this "fact" was complete BS before we had this proof....

Mesa Tactical

09-01-2011, 6:41 AM

As noted in my time line, diplomatic cables, which were part of the massive amount of classified information Wikileaks obtained and released to the public, indicate that the State Department was fully aware that the majority of weapons recovered by the Mexican government were coming from Central America.

Where is the cable that says that?

I still don't like WikiLeaks for the record and haven't read any of it. Something like this is an internal matter for our country and certainly needs to go public (even if it was something that didn't further my personal agenda, I would feel that way).

But a lot of stuff WikiLeaks releases is downright dangerous from what I've heard second hand.

In general, governments (at ALL levels, as Calguns Foundation is highlighting with its Sunshine Initiative) are far too secretive. There are very few government activities that should be legally and morally confidential from the people who fund them and for whose benefit they are ostensibly being conducted. And the more light you shine on these secret goings-on, the more malfeasance you inevitably uncover.

Gun rights advocates should be especially distrustful of governments' attempts to hide their activities from public view.

Every American should read Daniel Ellsberg's excellent memoirs, Secrets (http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Memoir-Vietnam-Pentagon-Papers/dp/0670030309). It will make you question why governments insist on hiding so many of their activities from the citizenry they are supposed to be serving.

curtisfong

09-01-2011, 10:50 AM

I do not support FULL transparency and I never will.

Research US v Reynolds and you might begin to see why some might say you are being naive.

mag360

09-01-2011, 11:57 AM

can't wait. Only a matter of time until Issa is calling for obammy to resign. At least I can hope!