Judaism stresses the importance of teshuva, return, to work on faulty character traits and habits that have obscured our true selves.

But what if you have no healthy sense of self to return to?

What if the sense of being at fault, inadequate, is not the aberration but the norm? Not a localized effect relating to one bad act or trait, but the way you view yourself ― and the way you suspect that others see you.

What if the people who were supposed to build your strong, healthy sense of self ― to complete their creation of you ― do the opposite? What if they cut you down, shame you, train you to feel weak and dependent to bolster themselves?

What do you return to then?

I grew up in what psychologists call a "triadic family" ― it is so common in the backgrounds of men who struggle with homosexuality that it has a name. A distant or belittling father, an emotionally smothering or needy mother, and in the center a boy with nobody to guide him on the path to manhood. A boy for whom manhood has become dangerous, threatening, distant. A boy who grows up feeling different from other boys and men, yet yearns to connect with them, with his own masculinity.

When I was five or six years old, my cousin brought her boyfriend ― a strapping muscleman ― to a family party. I threw myself at him, climbing into his lap and onto his shoulders. He threw me in the air, wrestled me, and played with me as my father never did. I couldn't get enough. The adults were vaguely embarrassed at the intensity with which I pursued him; eventually they pulled me away to go to bed.

Consuming another man's masculinity only temporarily substitutes for an honest male self-image.

When I passed through the gay world years later as a young man, I found many in the gay community like me: boys still desperately seeking to crack the code of real manliness.
But consuming another man's masculinity can only temporarily substitute for an honest male self-image. So the search, for many gay men, becomes a series of compulsive, yet fruitless encounters.

Older men, never having found the dream lover that would quiet their inner hunger, and finding their charms fading, would seek out boyish younger men for affairs that parodied real father-son relationships. This arrangement exploited my emotional neediness, and I gloried in being celebrated for my youth and vigor.

The rush of sexual and emotional release created powerful experiences. I finally felt loved and accepted by men. I had grown up with a distorted sense of myself as less than a man. Now a new ― equally distorted ― set of beliefs was offered as an explanation, a "solution" to that earlier hurt. Given the home I came from, it was easy to feel that coming out would mean "coming home" to something better. Wasn't this what teshuva means ― returning to your "true" self?

Facing the Truth

To solve a problem you must admit it exists.

You can deny it ― but then you must keep on denying, as reality mounts around you. From the first kink of self-serving untruth, you can, like a snail, build a crooked little world of your own.

In our narcissistic generation, talk of "returning to one's true self" can feed unhealthy self-absorption, empty self-esteem, or be used to cover a sense of inferiority ― without leading to honest self-examination. It can be used to spin a cocoon of excuses instead of leading outwards, inspiring the effort to see ― and live up to ― the truth.

Kabbalists call this capacity for self-deception "klipah" ― from the Hebrew word for a fruit's peel or rind. Enmeshed in this physical world, our souls blinkered by limited horizons, we are susceptible to falsehood.

In our generation those who struggle with homosexuality have the option of wrapping themselves in the gay liberation narrative. The mantle of chic victimhood quiets a lot of the inner distress ― for a while. The haunting sense of otherness folds in on itself to become a virtue. It feels wonderful to finally renounce that sense of being less than a normal man by declaring you are something else entirely.

But it's a false identity. As I saw up close, brave statements do not end the compulsive search for masculinity. There is no resolution, no revelation of true self.

My Struggle

So the first step in teshuva is to see clearly that an error has been made. The Torah demands that one verbally admit the transgression, to say it out loud. This is not a confession to anyone else but ourselves. God already knows.

It sounds simple, but we all justify our errors. It's even more difficult to pierce false fronts that we ourselves have constructed to cover deep wells of fear and shame.

My first struggle was for the truth of my own perceptions. I did not see the promised happiness and fulfillment in the gay community ― despite what "everybody" knew and told me. Despite what "everybody" knew about those backward observant Jews, I saw ― and received ― more real connection, trust, love, and joy in Jewish families and communities. However uncertain I felt about my worth, I didn't feel that I had been created differently from the Jews who were living that life of family and community.

I started digging for real facts.

I learned that homes like mine are common among men with homosexual urges.

I discovered that there is insufficient evidence for the claim that homosexuality is genetically or biologically predetermined. Instead I learned that homes like mine are common among men with homosexual urges. I found out that the great founders of psychology – from Freud and Jung up to the 1960s ― had described how the problems in those homes lead to homosexual attraction. I learned that their studies had never been disproved, merely shouted down. Just like people whose fantasy defenses were threatened by my own observations were shouting me down, telling me to disbelieve my own senses and feelings.

I found out that "out and proud" homosexuals still suffered depression, suicide, and substance abuse at rates several times higher than the general population. And that many gay men settle for a lifetime of brief, compulsive, and often anonymous sexual couplings, marked by elevated rates of physical abuse.

My foothold in Jewish communities and attachment to the Torah ― to an external measure of moral values which has stood the test of time ― kept my perspective rooted in reality. Exploitation by mutual agreement was not love. The relationships I'd had with older men were not healthy mentoring. I could no longer deceive myself by making up my own, self-serving definitions.

I had to struggle to discover and admit truths, painful truths that would wind up leading me on a longer, more lonely way than the one offered by the "experts."

I had to accept that my pain was caused by internal trauma, rather than external prejudice.

I had to accept that healing would require hard work to change my habits and mindset ― and on the way I would have to unearth and relive deeply painful episodes. To restore myself to the community of real men, I would have to relinquish the narcissistic comfort of being "special," overcome paralyzing fears, and risk rejection. I would also have to relinquish and mourn relationships that never would heal, and find others to love and trust.

As I took counsel with friends in both the gay and Torah worlds, a paradox emerged: those who called themselves liberal-minded humanists asserted that I was like an animal, my essential nature fixed ― and that there was no higher dimension to "fulfilling myself" beyond sexual abandon. And Torah Judaism ― dismissed by them as primitive ― asserted that I was free to define myself and bond deeply with others through the uniquely human qualities of free will, insight and choice.

Return Vs. Change

After the struggle to see the truth, comes the struggle to act on that truth.

People ask, "How did you change your sexual orientation?" But the language of the question betrays incorrect notions about homosexuality.

I didn't have to "change" anything since the sexual attraction I felt to other men was not my true nature.

I didn't have to "change" anything. The definition of teshuva is returning to one's true self, one's soul. The sexual attraction I felt to other men was not my true nature; it was an attempt driven by my yetzer hara, my baser self, to satisfy unmet needs, a symptom of missed developmental opportunities and distorted perceptions.

The healing path for men struggling with these attractions focuses on the underlying causes. We build trusting relationships that satisfy our healthy need for male bonding in a non-sexual way.

The Torah doesn't prohibit sincere, healthy needs. It warns us that these needs can draw us down emotional dead-ends, and guides us towards healthy ways to fulfill them ― and grow through them.

When these needs are met – when men are no longer mysterious, other, unattainable ― the sexual attraction to men decreases. As I found my own masculine power within me, the need to seek and consume another man's masculinity weakened. And in a pattern typical of this healing path, I found that feeling better about myself as a man led to healthy, normal heterosexual attractions.

Jewish communal life provides many opportunities for male friendship and camaraderie to grow. I have found many fathers and brothers, and this has been a primary healing experience for me.

One communal organization devoted to helping Jews struggle with homosexual urges provided targeted support with a Jewish orientation that I could not have received elsewhere. They allowed me to express my deepest feelings for the first time in a loving, accepting circle of men, and referred me to counseling professionals who were knowledgeable about homosexuality and Judaism, and shared my therapeutic goals.

The Jewish Struggler

There are several distinct advantages unique to the Jewish struggler with homosexuality:

Judaism views people as basically good. There is no concept of original sin, which makes it easier to forge a healthy, positive view of oneself and the world.

I found a positive male ideal within Judaism that sees manliness in wisdom and loyalty.

I discovered that return and repair are not just possible, they are what I am here to do. This is the essence of Tikkun Olam, repairing the world. This attitude helped free me from a downward spiral of passivity, fear of failure, and inaction, and continues to help me deal with inevitable ups and downs.

I found a positive, well-rounded male ideal within Judaism that sees manliness not just in sexual conquest or sports prowess, but in wisdom, loyalty and other virtues. Judaism gives men opportunities to fulfill themselves as scholars, husbands, fathers, brothers, and neighbors.

The pathways of healing are generally not straight, but circular or zigzag. When I successfully maintained new ways of acting, learned a new skill, or built a new friendship, it gave me the support I needed to deal with feelings that were once too painful to unearth. Introspection and resolving those feelings then led to further changes in behavior and improved relationships. Similarly, intense work with counselors to gain understanding was followed by work to translate those new insights into habits of living. And from that new position, new insights could be seen.

What about God?

Our relationship with God is in many ways built upon our relationships with our parents. My relationship with God certainly contains elements of a father-son relationship that I have long craved. But it also brings up old fears and angers. I still fear being rejected, shown up, or shamed by God. I fear His power over me ― because my father misused his power over me.

So my approach to God is sometimes oblique ― through the Torah, through teachers and other personalities with whom I have built warm, trusting relationships. God is there – as the Psalmist says, "peering out from the cracks." My focus is on correcting the distorted view I was raised with, and seeing the truth clearly. That effort is gradually revealing a truer view of God as well.

I have found real models of masculinity ― and heroism ― in the pages of the Torah and Talmud, and in every Jewish community in which I've lived. The warmth, commitment, and strength of my teachers and neighbors put me on solid ground. Within the Jewish community, I have married, raised a family, and become, I hope, a good father. We recently celebrated our oldest son's Bar Mitzvah.

The opinions expressed in the comment section are the personal views of the commenters. Comments are moderated, so please keep it civil.

Visitor Comments: 293

(290)
Ilana Leeds,
June 1, 2014 1:21 PM

One of the best articles I have ever read with regard to homosexuality

B'HI do not think I have read a deeper more searingly honest assessment of homosexuality and one person's journey. Beautifully written and sincere. Thank God the author has discovered his true nature and overcome the challenges of his early life.

(289)
Anonymous,
June 1, 2013 3:51 AM

CORRECT!

You are so correct that the father son relationship has been the key that triggered homosexual behavior. One of my best friends is an ex-gay male that had a horribly abusive father. His account of his gay years was very promiscuous and not one of his gay male friends had a father that was not abusive, and each told him they sought a male friend who was overly affectionate to replace what they were missing. These meetings most often resulted in being taken sexual advantage of at an early age. I really don’t know why the psychological connection seems to be disregarded; sometimes you just cannot ignore volumes of facts. Likewise, women who had fathers who were absent and unloving frequently become sexually promiscuous. When the parental relationship is outside the healthy norm, our inner child never abandons the search to establish one. Our relationship with our parents is the most important, childhood is not called the ‘formative years’ without reason. How we treat our children and what we allow them to be exposed too is the basis for the adults they will become.

(288)
Anonymous,
April 3, 2013 5:31 PM

It's rare to read such an honest assessment of homosexuality, and of a decision to tackle the situation with all one's strength, mind and heart. The author is to be commended and admired.

(287)
Anonymous,
January 27, 2013 9:10 AM

I'm a 25 year old student in England, for so long I was made to believe that my orientation was unchangeable, despite the fact that I always felt like it tapped into a negative part of me. I did my best to accept who I was, and for a long time I was superficially contented with my lifestyle and thought processes. Despite this, there was always an area in my mind that was telling me that this wasn't me. I read an article by a guy called 'David' on the aish website. It was beautifully written and his perspective really resonated with me. I felt that he gave an eloquent and veracious account of the side of being gay that no one really talks about, but is a common subliminal theme that runs through our lives. The fact that he came through it, inspired and propelled me to finally act and see where this could take me.

(286)
Jeff,
August 3, 2012 1:23 PM

Great topic

I am a straight male but, still found this article very interesting.

(285)
Anonymous,
December 16, 2011 5:55 AM

Thank G_d for people like you.

Taking a glance over the comments I see how some people have responded "negatively" to this article and I felt the need to speak up. I am a female that recently decided to leave the gay lifestyle. I am still struggling greatly and just in the very beginning of my journey for understanding. Reading articles/testimonies from others who have walked away are greatly uplifting and give me hope and strength. Thank you for speaking out. Don't let anyone silence you or tell you you're wrong. Thank you for being a beacon...

(284)
Caleb,
October 10, 2011 9:30 PM

Two Jews are better than one

G-d made you the way you are. Some of it you can change, and some of it you can't. If you are able to be happy with woman, and you know it is God's plan for you, then get married ASAP. Otherwise, don't torture yourself: give your heart with complete sincerity. This spiritual bond can still serve you greatly in serving God. Two Jews are better than one... especially if they know one another and know one another, as they support each other in ways no one else can.

(283)
Charles,
June 28, 2011 1:53 AM

G-d bless

G-d bless David. I used to be a homosexual until I decided to become a Torah-abiding new person. With the help of JONAH, now I am married to a woman for 10 years with 3 beautiful children. Don't let the gay activists deceive you, homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle and it can be changed.

(282)
Anonymous,
May 24, 2011 3:56 AM

I find this story revolting and it is trying to set back the gay rights movement by decades. I come from an extremely supportive, happy family with a very masculine father who played sports with me throughout my childhood. I never had any lack of masculinity in my life and yet I am gay. I resent the point that you make about gay men living their lives just in order to find masculinity because that is simply not true. As with straight men and women, there is a spectrum and you have masculine gay men and more feminine ones. The gay culture is what you make it. Of course you can go to the clubs and see the sexualized part of it, or you can see a loving couple raising their two kids in the suburbs. You are classifying an entire group of millions of people and putting only one single label on them. Gay people come from all places and in all shapes, sizes, colors, etc. Man was created in God's image. I did not choose to be gay, it is how I was born. God made me this way and therefore God does not want me to be anybody else, or anything else.

Anonymous,
February 10, 2012 3:35 AM

Your accepted the action isnt

I understand that when someone is gay and has feelings for the same sex. I faced such challeneges throughout my life. I really saw nothing wrong with being intimate with other girls. The truth is that God doesnt allow it. He made us and created all of our flaws and negative thoughts. He expected us to fight our wrong desires and follow his laws. Its really simple if you look at it liek that. If you are gay then yes, you have a hard struggle and your fight is harder than heterosexuals but if you are seeking God and want to get close to him, follow his will. No one ever said that you cant be gay!! you just cant act on it. You are allowed to feel whatever you want to feel. I am allowed to hate someone if they give me reason to, but it doesnt mean I can kill them. Its the action that matters. If you arent looking to be close to God then dont visit this website. These articles were meant to bring people closer to God.

(281)
Anonymous,
May 14, 2011 12:45 AM

Aw liberal homosexuals just don't get it...

He is defining you, you hide the fact that you are unhappy and wrap it in normalcy but it really isn't right. To the comment that Aish is too conservative well it is a religious website meant to bring people closer to Judaism, the religious Judaism and the mitzvot not the kind where we ignore the pieces we don't like.
I myself have struggled with homosexuality and I don't believe that homosexuality is a "gene," it may be possible that sexual urges themselves can be amplified by genetics and therefore you can feel them more intensely. Those who have both sexual and emotional connections to men are twisting the platonic relationships with men and adding a sexual nature into it.
I think I came into homosexuality out of a desire to be loved and engaged physically, when I couldn't get women to help me with those urges I turned to men who seemed all to eager to oblige. I enjoyed the sexual pleasure, but it always ended with me feeling empty (as does all meaningless sex), and I felt disgusted and marginalized because I was engaging in something to satisfy my urges, not out of love. Today I struggle with not desiring that, but it isn't just from men it is from women to; my self confidence was so weak that I couldn't accept that a woman could love me or want me so I went to men. Now I am trying to live my life for Hashem and have vowed not to engage in any sexual activity until I am married, in the meantime I hope to repair the damage I've done to myself by turning to such destructive behavior for instant gratification.

(280)
Elimelech,
April 4, 2011 9:11 AM

Some are confused, some are beautiful and gay.

I think an important point that needs to be made is that there is a difference between homosexuals (like myself) who grew up in healthy, loving homes, and otherwise heterosexual men who were victims of psychological abuse rather than people of a different sexual orientation. Inner peace is just as important as you said, but believe me, inner peace and self-love also come to those of us who accept and grow within ourselves while maintaining the tendency to love other men. Bottom line: there are those men who are confused about their sexuality. Please don't assume that all gay men have the same troubles that you had. Also, congratulations on your personal success. I don't like and have never indulged in a pornographic gay culture. There is culture everywhere, straight and gay, and I have found where I am comfortable with my friends, family, and G-d.

(279)
Anonymous,
March 25, 2011 3:08 AM

Intelligent but Frustrating

This article actually does have some meaningful content but gets destroyed by its overall message. A large part of the gay world can be overly sexual, and many gay men end up depressed but that is only because homosexuals are marginalized and taught to define themselves based on their sexuality. Truth comes from accepting one's sexuality but realizing that it doesn't have to define who you are. That it is only just one part of you. Upon first coming out, I was released alone into a culture with many marginalized human beings who therefore naturally craved affection. Being the same and finding bad role models, I naturally became depressed. As someone who is now happy because he has found other gay men as well as straight people who lead happy and meaningful lives that aren't focused on sex, I am finally able to resolve the conflict between the way society portrays my sexuality and the man I am, a gay man who has all the manhood of any straight man.
As a gay jew who is proud of it and just stumbled upon this website, I am frustrated to see this article without an equally promoted counter-argument. As a young man who has only recently become more interested in his Jewish background, this site seems to have some very useful and important information, but now I am pushed from looking into it any further. Most jews in my life are more accepting than this, and I can only assume that this site is too conservative.
To the other gay jews, just because the prevalent and loudest gay culture seems focused on sex and partying that does not have to be your life. In fact, as long as the people who are important to you accept you for who you are, your life doesn't have to change much at all as long. Seek out the gays in your community who promote positive environments. Gay sports leagues are a great example, but any sort of setting that isn't a bar will work. Do not retreat back into your shell. You finally came out, and that's a good thing! Accept yourself and don't change.

(278)
Ilana,
February 24, 2010 2:42 AM

I commend you for finding personal happiness and peace, but I find your assertions troubling. There is in fact ample evidence that homosexuality is inborn (evidence from the animal world, for example), and is not necessarily something that can be changed. I am sorry that you found the gay community to be "pornographic", but you must know that it doesn't have to be that way. It is possible to be gay and not enmeshed in an overtly sexual lifestyle.

(277)
Anonymous,
October 25, 2009 7:44 PM

your story, my life

David, I really cannot thank you enough for telling your story here, and -- more importantly -- your faithfulness and discipline to MAKE it your story.
I'm a 29yo male who has long struggled btwn acknowledging my honest emotions and the lack of fulfillment I've found (and have been unable to be content with) trying to address them with the gay life/culture. Like you, I come from "triadic family," with an emotionally distant and consistently unavailable father. My childhood experiences, and even my young adulthood life, have yearned (by wholesome and very not so wholesome means) to know the meaning of true manliness and fulfillment as a whole, affirmed man. I'd really began to give up hope .... as I've always felt like MY life -- for whatever reason -- is such an anomaly (and I can't "fake" comfort, as strangely frustrating as it seems). I've heard no stories like my own; I was growing discouraged that my own narrative served as proof of how screwed-up I sometimes feel. Although I am not Jewish (I am Christian and I am also African-American, which -- culturally speaking -- also complicates things at times), I draw enlightenment and such inspiration from your analysis of how such life-situations need be addressed. Truly a sigh of relief, although I sometimes grow weary of how incredibly lonely this journey can sometimes be (or feel). I, too, someday hope to have a family. But, most essentially, I hope to -- as you say -- "return" as my whole original self... now the journey begins to learn exactly what that means, and is. ...Thank you, again, for obeying your desire to write this piece. You never know who you'll touch, just as one never knows whom he or she will be touched BY, or how....Many thanks, David. And all the best to you!

(276)
Anonymous,
October 15, 2009 12:57 AM

Great Article!

I applaude you for comeing forth with this artical. Mazel Tov! It helps in answering some questions that have come my way. Thank you David.

(275)
Gina,
September 28, 2009 5:31 PM

Beautiful

I applaud you David for giving the non judgmental public a chance to better understand homosexuality. I can certainly relate to your post because I too used to have same sex attraction until I finally learned to love myself and just be happy. I too grew up without a father and was molested. If this has anything to do with it at all, maybe not but one thing is for sure I have never felt as great as I do now. Take care.

(274)
Anonymous,
September 1, 2009 2:23 PM

Article scientifically invalid - part II

Over & over the article reads as this person having issues that don't have anything to do with homosexuality. So it confuses the matter to focus on sexuality. The whole "manliness" & "charm" & superficial encounters is not basic to homosexuality. For some they are the outcome of being marginalized by society so norm development gets skewed. For others they just never come up. These are issues that this person needs to deal with (or did need to) that are -not- about homosexuality. (Hum, maybe that's why an honest internal look worked so well for him.)
The depiction of tolerance as "allowing for fixed animal" mode is completely his own projection on what he perceives acceptance of homosexuality to be. Tolerance is letting people explore sexuality & their internal selves without reprimand. He chooses to call it amimalistic nature thereby demeaning sex if it's done homosexually. It's circular - it seems animalistic to him vs. Torah-like because that's what he was raised to see. That's what being stuck in intolerance is. And of course so he couldn't choose that route out.
On a very gut level the article reads as missing something. A straight man writing it - somehow the relationship with a woman would come shinning through the pages. It always does. It's absent here as though this sexuality is absent female presence.
It's fine with me to keep a group like this available for those it suits. To demean homosexuality as unnatural & having deeper psychological roots in the process... is just a throwback.
FYI, Freud & Jung's theories were never proved so there is no need to "unprove" them. And many of their other theories were roundly disproven such as on sexual abuse, or schizophrenia as caused by the mother.
This article doesn't work & does do harm to the well being of others who deserve more tolerant attitudes as they deal with this in a society that doesn't.

(273)
Anonymous,
September 1, 2009 2:21 PM

Article scientifically invalid - Part I

As a straight Jewish woman with no particular interest in the homosexual experience, but as having a degree in science research in psychology, this article is troubling.
Coorelation is not causation, the mantra of all good science, but the easy to twist method of all show-y superficial argument. A triad family, even if common, can easily be the -result- of a male child who a hetro father can't relate to, but a mom can over relate to. The homo common subculture here isn't compared to the hetro subculture. The barhopping & sex by 3rd date standards are as troubling for heteros. Stats can be manipulated & these are limited to one country. The author dismisses homosexual life as emotionally troubling but no longer caused by lack of acceptance. Huh? Whether in the closet, or -out-, being homosexual has a deep stigma in this society that effects everyone. There is such a thing as bisexual & the author doesn't address adequately where his attractions were on the scale.
I'm glad for his peace, but this article is written in a way that stigmatizes men who choose to embrace themeselves as homosexual. The same results in his life could be written in a way that acknowledges this as more complex than written, & that for many this isn't a pathway at all. It certainly isn't fair to marginalize homosexual men as having to opt between that subculture vs. straight. So many people stating they know gay men who don't do that should make the stats suspect (I personally know people as well.)

(272)
ano,
June 15, 2009 7:10 AM

open

im a gay jew and seventeen, i am openly gay but do not plan to have any homosexual intercourse, i want to marry and have children and a jewish household. My friends know i am gay, because lying about it would be against the torah, if anyone asks im gay. But i also like the smell of squid that is fried, or sometimes i want to watch tv on shabbes but i dont to that either. changing who i am would be immpossible, but observing the torah is not. it is a hard mission but it gives me an oppurtunity to show my trust in the torah. i hope ill stick to it. (all the respect though to non-observant gays, i know how hard it is and how unfair it seems.)

(271)
David, not Goliath,
December 30, 2008 5:35 AM

there are differences

David,
I realize that your emotions make you wonder on which side of the line you're standing. Keep in mind though, that your feelings are the same "lust" feelings that exist amongst your "straight" counterparts.
However, they realize their shortcomings, and how much the Almighty has trusted them to return to Him.
The gay movement on the other hand, will wage an all-out-war and demonstrate in the streets of Earth's holiest city, instead of realizing what's incumbent upon them.

(270)
Yossi,
December 23, 2008 8:51 PM

Yes, David, There is Teshuva...

Thank you for sharing your wonderful story. Like you, I have not "changed", but have returned to the image the Creator designed for me.
When I hear the naysayers "that's not me, you don't understand", all I can do is weep and pray for them, I remember that pain...all to well...Congradulations brother :D
Yossi

(269)
hopeful,
December 6, 2008 7:42 PM

life''s so much easier if we face reality

I have seen that there have been posts from people who were gay *or* lesbian who expressed a passionate commitment to Torah and Judaism. Please hear me out on this. I am a convert to Judaism. I chose the real thing - observance that goes back to Har Sinai. It wasn''t at all easy *or* at all quick to convert. I lost family and had accepted all kinds of suffering in order to convert. And why did I do it? To have a real and special relationship with the Almighty. The truth is that being a Torah Jew is literally living in a marriage with G-d. And as a married man let me tell you, there is no relationship more absolute, binding, truly intimate and elevating than marriage. Marriage has conditions for it to work. Stretching back to Mount Sinai the original main condition of making a marriage with G-d work is complete acceptance of the Torah. Specifically in my conversion I had to accept every Torah and Rabbinic mitzvah, *or* I could not become Jewish period. Think about this. If I had said that I accepted everything in the Torah except the prohibition on homosexual relations I would not be Jewish now. This is not prejudice - this is a statement of reality about what a Jew is - a Jew is someone who must accept the entire Torah. This is not a requirement to be perfect - even very holy and learned Rabbis repent - but it is a required to sincerely try and make one''s personal relationship with G-d work the very best it can be. We also have to face up to something here. G-d is the Almighty - it is appropriate that He sets the terms of this marriage. The terms of the marriage are not negotiable, and if you deeply understood them, and deeply understood how they are a recipe for your ultimate happiness, you would never want to change the terms of the marriage the slightest. Trust G-d - He knows what he is doing. You may find like I did that working on curing your anxiety, depression and stress help you tremendously. For example I found taking a few minutes to focus on breathing in for four seconds then breathing out for four seconds amazingly helpful. Try it - you may find it is part of a great journey home. Welcome home!

(268)
summer,
November 20, 2008 7:53 AM

Bravo

I enjoyed your article. I congratulate you on your journey to true freedom. I pray that many that are lost in this lifestyle will find this article. My heart goes out to all that are taught that they were created this way. It is a choice. Look up Dr. Neil Whitehead and his wife Briar Whitehead, they have done research about the origins of homosexuality and have written to affirm what David has written about....you can be free from being gay and lesbian.

(267)
A Different David,
November 19, 2008 12:12 AM

I am not like David.

Stories such as these are easily generalized to all gays. As a gay Jew, I do not come from a "triad family," and I reject the notion that my attraction to men is a need or search for masculinity. Being gay, in my opinion, is as inexplicable as being right or left handed. Insufficient evidence for homosexuality being genetic or biologically based does not imply that it must be a result of experiences.
David, if you have found happiness with a wife, then I am very happy for you. Most gay men are not so lucky. Perhaps there are various sources of homosexuality.
I think it's important to distinguish between same-sex attraction and homosexuality. I honestly am skeptical of people who claim that they "overcame" or "cured" their homosexuality, who also claim that they were in fact gay in the first place, and who also claim that they are not deceiving themselves. For me, being gay is as part of me as being right handed. Operating differently would be deceiving myself.

(266)
Claudemiro,
November 18, 2008 2:11 PM

I have returned ... too

David,
Thank you so much for sharing your personal story. I have returned to healthy sense of sel, too. Although I had spent many years in the gay lifestyle, I have found what I was really looking for and I have shared it with men in my country (Brazil).
Great post!
Claudemiro

(265)
Anonymous,
November 8, 2008 5:39 AM

I admire you, David!

Thank you for having the courage to share your story. I know so many people who have quietly returned to their true self. Thank you for sharing the truth that there is feedom to choose a Torah lifestyle even for those who struggle with SSA. I am saddened to see the intolerance that has been exhibited here towards you, and hope that your story will encourage others who struggle to follow in your(Torah) footsteps.

(264)
fishface42,
November 4, 2008 7:41 PM

Speak for yourself, David.

I suggest that "David" share his experience in "I statements" exclusively, and not run into generalizations re. other gays' psychology and lives, for which he is patently ill-qualified. His fatwas are misleading and potentially dangerous. I remind him of the inconvenient truth that gays also perished in the holocaust. I would expect a thoughtful Jew (I am not one) to apply the slogan, "Live and let live."

(263)
Jillian,
November 4, 2008 5:17 PM

I object to this article

This article saddens me because of its lack of love and acceptance to people of sexual minorities. While David presented his story as he lived it, the tone subjects a singular approach to people of sexual minorities- that they must embrace the hetero normative experience to be authentically accepted by the Jewish community. This is not Ahavas Yiserol- loving all Jews. With this I affirm the right of all people to be respected and loved. And I object to this crude presentation of the lives that people of sexual minorities lead, because in the reality I know and live, there are gay and bisexual couples who raise families with love and shalom baysis. And it is a shame that this article obviates there present in the gay community, and worse in the Jewish community at large. As Jews may we all learn to love and be kind to our fellow Jew.

(262)
Meir,
November 4, 2008 11:47 AM

note to all Gay "Frum" people

First of all thanx ALOT aish.com and David for the illuminating article.
Secondly,I was reading all the comments and am ASTOUNDED by the amout of people fooling themselves.
So I would like to make one thing crystal clear that seems hard for many to grasp,
IF YOU ARE GAY YOU ARE'NT FRUM!
and anyone who says diffrent either doesn't know better or else just doesn't wanna know.
If you wanna be gay, be gay
BUT DON'T CALL YOURSELF FRUM!
this can be proved by a few BASIC torah concepts,
1.A guy is obligated by the Torah to get married.Period.
2.The Torah says a man needs to love his wife as much as he loves himself.
3. It is forbidden for a man to sleep with a man-
ה,ו,צ,א,ת, ז,ר,ע, ל,ב,ט,ל,ה,
so you can whine all you like that your frum and your gay
THERE IS NO SUCH THING!
you can be a frum person who struggles with your yetzer on this issue-
we all fall sometimes in diffrent things.
But thats when you know that you are doing something wrong,something that the Torah does'nt allow.
Then you are called a frum person with a nisayon.
But when you say there is nothing wrong with being gay-and frum
you are a living lie

(261)
one who loves Hashem,
November 3, 2008 4:38 PM

This couldd powerfully change the way porn is tackled

We perhaps need to similiarly have a family model to explain how some men and women are over-attracted to porn. It may be wrong and unhelpful to soley high-handedly bash people for lacking moral self control. The assumption that people who have had this addiction grew up just like other people may be wholly false. Exploration of this could lead to very therapeutic techniques. I myself had a distant father and a highly critical mother and I wonder if this created extra challenge for me in this area. Certainly the attraction of immodest looking has often not been for excitement but for the illusion of nurturing comfort which I lacked as a child.

(260)
S,
November 2, 2008 12:43 PM

I applaud you for your willingness to see that it is possible to change and thereby grow and be that potential self that you are meant to be. Let's remember that the Torah wouldn't forbid it if it was impossible to do anything about it. There has to be a way to overcome it. It's very difficult, but it's possible. We have many things to improve about ourselves. Our job is to keep working on ourselves and growing

(259)
Anonymous,
November 1, 2008 8:23 AM

wasted semen

understand this,the Torah prohibits men from having sex with eachother because of semen( referred to as seed of life)going to waste,as seen elswhere in the tanach that others were punished with death when having purposely spilled their seed on the floor so that they wouldnt spoil her figure with pregnancy.
that is why it is called an abomination because it goes against the cycle of life.
it is mentioned in the torah because the inclination obviously exhisted and men had to be taught that this is not the way that Hashem intended his creation to be used.
It does not mention women lying with women cause they dont have semen.

(258)
Anonymous,
October 25, 2008 6:45 PM

thank you

Thanks Aish for discussing this topic. Please publish more works on this topic. This is a YETZER HORA, yes YETZER HORA- like any other that has to be conquered.

(257)
Ben in Oakland,
October 25, 2008 12:53 PM

It always amazes me when Jews...

jump on the homophobia bandwagon and start talking about the homosexual menace. I am a Jew and I'm gay. we've both been persecuted for 2000 years by people who claim to love us. the same lies and slanders about gay people have been told about Jews. Anybody know about the blood libel? The queers or the Jews are after your children. The Jews killed Jesus, the gays are gonna kill religion. and on and on and on.
If you go to hatecrime.org and search a bit, you can find out what has been said aobut Jews and what has been said about gays by no lesser lights than the Nazis themselves. It's illuminating.
What the torah says about homosexuality really depends upon what you think it says than what it actually says. at worst, Leviticus condemns one single act of some male homosexual people. It does not say anything else. Lesbians are omitted entirely, so to read Leviticus like it condemns gay sexuality is just your own prejudice speaking.
nor is it as clear as some would claim. The literal translation of the the words refers to sleeping the sleep of a woman. There are no contemporary interpretations of those words which can tell us what they mean. all we have are later commentaries. and those aren't the word of G. Likewise, to'evah, translated as abomination. That's a word in the King James version, and it does not mean to us what it meant to king James, and it didn't mean to him what it may have meant to the levitical writers. Idolatrous practice. eating shrimp is also to'evah.
In fact, why not ignore the bible altogether, dispense with the alleged authority of ancient texts and ask the magic question- what position accords with the standards of common human decency, compassion, mercy and kindness? The lives and spirits of gay people, and their ability to choose what is best for their lives, are molded and stunted, hijacked by "faith" long before they even can understand the basis of that faith or that they are gay and what that means in their lives. And not surprisingly, so are the lives and thoughts of anti-gays.
But here is what it all boils down to. In WWII, thanks to 2000 years of Christian persecution,6 million Jews were murdered in service to Christian bigotry. Also 250,000 gay people.
you do the math.

C.R.K.,
November 21, 2011 9:07 PM

just one of the problems with this argument

you say that later commentaries are not the word of G-d. In fact, one of the mitzvos is to listen to authentic Torah leaders. There is no debate among the commentaries as to what the prohibition is. Who you mean by "the levitical writers" I'm not sure- do you not believe that the entire Torah was written by G-d? Furthermore, much if not all of the Torah, even the written Torah requires proper interpretation to be understood correctly.

(256)
bluenote,
October 25, 2008 9:46 AM

G-d is faithful

What a journey David. I have had a long journey myself. Not the same path but still wanting acceptance from my father. Then I had an epiphany. What was my fathers life like that he had turned out this way. I began to step out of my role as the child and looked at my father as if he were someone I had Just met. On other occasions I would look at him in an objective way not personal. Soon I began to see him for the hurt person he was. His father was an alcoholic. His mother was passive and allowed the verbal abuse of her children. He had little to know parenting skills because he had no role model either. I now can move on because I don't let him or my childhood define who I am.
Also G-d did not make any mistakes and create homosexuals they are self made or environmental. It is a self indulgence and lust of the flesh.
As to David Benkof... n do you need reminding that Sodom and Gamorrh

(255)
Anonymous,
October 24, 2008 3:29 PM

To Mordechai

Thank you for your very thoughtful reply. Your words are well taken. You, who learn Mussar and face down the challenges of homosexual urges, are a thousand times my better.

Each individual''s free will point is unique, determined by environment, experiences, background, genetics, etc.

May you continue to succeed, and be a vehicle for helping others as well. May you achieve greatness in Torah, Service, and Acts of kindness.

Thank you for making your position clearer to me. May you go from strength to strength.

(254)
Daniel,
October 23, 2008 11:52 AM

Meshpoche

Once Chase Bank had an advertising campaign that said, "You have a friend at Chase." The small (Jewish) community bank across the street responded with their own campaign: "You have a friend at Chase, but here you have Meshpoche."
I feel a deep sadness for this author. He writes of a journey of self-discovery that he has traveled alone. It is not surprising that he likely has gone off course.
We need others to help us appreciate who we are. Why someone is introverted, extroverted, athletic or apathetic of course comes from their environment. But the fact that David, alone, listened to the voices of intolerance, a homophobic society, for his own self-assessment led him to the conclusion that homosexuality is not okay and, therefore, he is not okay.
There is a great UCSF-Rand Corporation study published in the 2003 National Journal of Public Health Administrators that cites the discrepency between the presence of psychosocial issues in American heterosexual households and homosexual households. It notes this discrepency does not exist in western europe and concludes that American society's homophobia is the culprit.
Until religious fanatics stop telling others that they are not okay, this will continue. The question, therefore, is not whether or not David is okay, it's whether or not American society is okay.

(253)
David Benkof,
October 23, 2008 3:22 AM

Problems with the essay

My name is David Benkof. I am a gay Orthodox (celibate for 8 years) man who follows all of Jewish law to the best of my ability, including regarding family and and bedroom life. Many Orthodox rabbis have praised my approach to homosexuality and halacha (Jewish law). I am very sad to see Aish Hatorah fall for such naarishkeit (nonsense) as it shows in the essay above. I happen to write a weekly column ("Fabulously Observant") that deals about half the time with gay issues. I will respond to much of the above in an upcoming column, but for now a few points:
1) Judaism believes in yeridat hadorot (descent of generations) in Jewish texts only. We do not think that a chemist 200 years ago is more talented than a chemist 100 years ago, who is more talented than a chemist today. Thus, citing Freud and Jung, who are important historically but obsolete clinically, is one hint this guy is way off.
2) He cites "triadic family" as if it's a commonly used psychiatric term. But it gets fewer than 2,000 hits. That means by definition it's obscure.
3) Domineering mother-absent father is a half-century out of date as a reason for homosexuality. I know, and virtually every gay person knows, tons of gays with the opposite, or different situations. People who know me know I'm the LAST to spout GayThink about 10 percent and such falsehoods. But some parts of GayThink just are true, and the fact there's no one family formation that "causes" homosexuality is widely accepted. After all, why are so many siblings of gay people straight?
4) For years, I've been studying homosexuality and Judaism with some of the biggest rabbis in America and Israel, and the fact is that the Torah has no notion that we're all inherently straight. That's a Christian notion imported into JONAH from Christian ex-gay organizations. It does a lot of harm to the psyches of gay people who focus on trying to fix their orientations when the Torah only demands gay people control their behavior.
Enough for now. I may post later, and like I said my Fabulously Observant column will tackle this subject at jpost.com some time soon (it runs Thursdays).

(252)
Avigayil,
October 22, 2008 11:41 PM

WOW thanks for the insight.

As a Jew, Psychologist and as a friend of many gay people, I usually have great difficulty with this subject. I want my friends to have healthy happy and fulfilled lives, and non of my gay friends are Jewish, which makes this easier. Thanks for your really interesting and honest perspective of what has occurred for you. Although I don't think this is the case for all gay men, I had never considered this perspective or possibility. Thanks for sharing.

(251)
Kathee,
October 22, 2008 9:37 AM

God knows and understands better than anyone

May God bless you and yours, "David."

(250)
Anonymous,
October 17, 2008 12:02 AM

To Michoel

Michoel,
The fault is mine for not writing with sufficient clarity.
Of course, one can be having difficulties with a particular aveirah and still be frum. The wording was poor. I myself have so many faults, it is laughable that I would say frum is to be completely without sin. I WISH I was there...
I meant something different. Some people on this thread are saying, proudly, it is perfectly fine to engage in gay behaviors, and that is compatible with being frum. That gay people need to be "true to themselves". If we give in to our physical desires, we are somehow "being true to ourselves". That gay behaviors are an innocent fact of life such as blonde hair or an artistic talent. They posit, how dare some people intimate that there is anything against the Torah in such a lifestyle. THAT is where the deceit is found. Do you hear people say, it is OK to eat pork and be an observant Jew? Is it OK to rob a bank and be an observant Jew? Rather, you would hear the individual say, I am an observant Jew, but I struggle mightily with my desire for pork. I sometimes fall. That is my personal challenge that I am working on. or, I am an observant Jew, but I have great temptation to rob. I struggle with this temptation greatly, and hope to overcome it. This is all intellectually honest. One knows Torah, and one aspires to observe ALL the laws. All of us have temptations, perhaps not pork or bank robbery, but others.
However, some of the posters were saying something quite different. For some reason, just because the physical urges for gay behavior are so great, they think it is OK to pretend that Torah really doesn't forbid it. "I'm Orthodox and gay and proud of it", is how these individuals come across. This is precisely where the gross dishonesty comes into play, and there are many who cause others to sin in this manner, by spreading falsehood about the Torah's position in regard to this.
Yes, it is excruciatingly difficult to begin the journey to overcome and aspire higher. And those who live with their gay inclination and do not engage in gay behavior are heroes of the spirit. They shall merit tremendous reward in the world to come. In the next world, when all physical urges are over, it is people like these who will reap the benefits of a life lived in accordance with Hashem's Will.
It is incumbent upon all of us to give Chizuk, warmth and support to those who are struggling with these issues.
To those who suppress and mock others' support, they will need to live with their machati es harabim by curbing even in the slightest way the potential for people so greatly challenged in this area to climb spiritual heights and upon reaching the summit, know that their life was truly a masterpiece to be proud of- the real pride- the one that is everlasting.

(249)
Mordechai,
October 16, 2008 1:22 PM

(Mostly) A Response to (241) Anonymous

I respect your candor and honesty with me, (241) Anonymous. Nevertheless, I have a few points of contention:
1: You state that I have “swallowed gay sound bites,” implying that I unquestionably accept every word from the gay rights movement. That’s simply untrue. I am an iconoclast in the sense that I do not automatically accept one side over the other. I search for HaEmet, particularly in this situation. I realize that those in the mainstream of the gay rights movement have a sense of sexual liberation at stake, while the “Religious Right” is preserving the traditional notion of the family. Knowing that both sides have something a stake means that objectivity is much more difficult to come by, hence why intellectual discussions such as these are of utmost importance.
2: You tell me that I “have swallowed the gay propaganda of ‘if you could be with a woman now, you were bi, not gay.’” To keep in the realm of intellectual honesty, the very definition of bisexuality is the sexual attraction to both men and women. David’s story of overcoming his promiscuity is laudable, but is nevertheless the story of a bisexual, not a homosexual. Sexuality is an extremely complicated topic. If being homosexual were strictly genetic, natural selection would have wiped out homosexuals. If it were due to the “triadic family,” it would be a trait amongst siblings. Seeing that my siblings are heterosexual (and I’m sure other homosexuals can testify to this), the notion of the “triadic family” causing people to be homosexual is ridiculous. This must mean that the origin of homosexuality, which has yet to have been objectively identified due to biases, is much more complicated.
3a: “Yetzer hara” is something that you mention quite frequently. Having been a practitioner of Mussar for well over a year now, I can safely state yetzer hara is something that I frequently encounter, and Baruch HaShem, conquer. You say that I “lock myself into falsified barriers” and imply that I haven’t been trying hard. I have been dealing with this since I was seven years old! Even after dating, pure denial of my SSA, doing my utmost to ignore it, therapy, and intense t’filah, it has yet to go away. How can you sit there and say I haven’t been trying? I wish there truly were an on/off switch for sexuality. If there were, I would have permanently left it on the “OFF” setting a long time ago. The unfortunate reality is that such a switch doesn’t exist. In all honesty, what more do you want me to do, enter a loveless marriage that will ultimately end in a torn family embittered by divorce? That doesn’t sound like an act of chesed, now does it?
3b: At the beginning of your letter, you say that “you have been told by manipulative gay promoters that the scientific data supports SSA as ‘not a choice,’” implying SSA is a choice. Then you tell me how SSA is a yetzer hara. So are you saying that yetzer hara is a choice?! After reading the book “Adults Only: Trendsetting Spirituality for the 21st Century” by Rabbi Isaac Fingerer, who so happens to be associated with AISH, something he wrote struck me: “Heredity and determine the SCOPE (own emphasis added) of our free choice (p. 41).” There are some battles we cannot win, and there are some things that were are incapable of. It’s called “being human,” and although we strive to walk in His ways, there are just some areas in which we fail. Even the greatest of Biblical figures were fallible, but they still managed to accomplish a great deal.
4: I’m just curious what you would tell a heterosexual couple that is infertile, another condition that is pre-determined: “Oh, the doctor you went to see is a meshugana. It’s not that you’re infertile, it’s that you’re not trying hard enough. And if you ultimately cannot perform the mitzvah of p’ru urvu, well, then G-d will punish you both for eternity.”
I am glad that AISH publishing a second article, and I pray to HaShem that the article garners the attention to the complexities of this issue and the intellectual honesty that this issue merits. Before I end, I would like to end with this insight. In Yoma 9, the Sages say that First Temple was destroyed because we transgressed via idol worship, illicit sexual relations, and murder. Seventy years later, the Jewish people were redeemed and a Second Temple was built. The Second Temple was destroyed because of our sinat chinam towards one another. It took two other transgressions to bring down the First Temple, but even then, it only took 70 years for redemption. It is truly amazing how the sole transgression of sinat chinam has kept us from re-building Beit Mikdash for two millennia, which is twenty-eight times longer than the period between the First and Second Temples! May we see the day where we can end the sinat chinam and herald the coming of Moshiach!

(248)
Michael,
October 16, 2008 12:38 PM

The answer seems to be simple but painful

As a gay man who understands but cannot sympathise with the accepted orthodox view, I don't get how an orthodox Jew who believes in the Divine authorthip of Torah can believe anything but the statement that gay sex is not permitted. It seems to me that a gay person can do whatever he or she likes but to expect a Torah-observant believer to go against what they see as the ultimate truth is to expect too much. So if G-d indeed did say gay sex is an abomination, then why expect a frum Jew to say otherwise? Accept this and move on. Don't expect everyone to approve of us, it ain't going to happen. This is painful, of course, but really you can't expect the degree of humanitarianism that some of us crave, and this degree of acceptance, from someone who believes the Torah's words are the word of G-d. Being gay and daring to look for love, as I have done, is my decision and I know it is the correct one, but please, fellow gay people, accept that Orthodox Judaism is unable to accommodate us.

(247)
michoel,
October 15, 2008 10:24 PM

I would just like to point out to Anonymous (241)(and anyone else) implying that sexual orientation is a choice, that you are no less dishonest in your ability to find the truth of the matter than the gay activists. There is no conclusive scientific "body" or concensus by anyone without an agenda to "prove". As I said previously, I dont think anyone really knows whether it is nature or nurture and it may not be one or the other in all cases.
I am not chas v'shalom trying to deny Torah. "Lying with a man as with a woman" is clearly assur. But orientation is not discussed in the Torah (at least to the best of my knowledge it is not).
You said you cannot be gay and frum. I know many men that are. Some do avairos related to this challenging ta'aveh, while some refrain and are perhaps Tzadikim, even though they have not changed their same sex attractions.
You yourself stated that it is not easy and that is it "excruciating". If we exclude from the frum community all the people that have fallen in some area, i.e. committed adultery, stolen, been motzei zera levatala, or speak lashon harah we will have seriously depleted many communities. It doesn't make the avairah less serious but it doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be excluded from the community.
There are many avairos that people struggle with, and perhaps there is a good reason why people with same sex attractions are pariahs in our communities. But many of the comments here seem to feel that people struggling with this are beyond yiddishkeit unless they do T'shuva. I totally disagree with that.
We need to really understand how the Gedolim want us to deal with this difficult, charged subject. But please remember there are real people dealing with this and real pain associated with it.

(246)
Justin,
October 15, 2008 9:24 PM

Yasher Koach Mordechai!

Mordechai, I could not have written that better myself. Homosexuality is not the problem. Promiscuity and the "gay culture" is the problem. But a gay Jew can live just as fulfilling of a life with a man as a straight Jew can with a woman. Baruch Hashem, some in the frum world have begun to realize this. Sadly, Aish is not among them.

(245)
Harold Pitzker,
October 15, 2008 7:15 PM

Judge not lest ye be judged

I'm a gay orthodox Jew living alone, and daily I battle with my urges. I have been to a lot of counseling, and I have been married before, but tragically it ended in divorce. I was not able to fully be with my wife, and I am still riddle with guilt about it. I could not remove my attraction for me.
When I do engage in relationships with men, I try not to engage in actual relations, thus halachically there is no problem with this. Sometimes i do err, but my rabbi always tells me he doesn't know anyone who has committed aveirot. The point is, I try my best to live in a halachic way. Judging me doesn't seem appropriate, and is not the torah way. Whilst I support counseling, and if possible helping people to overcome their attractions, at some point the orthodox community also needs to accept this is not possible for everyone. Johan promotes the "big lie" that homosexuality is a choice, and can be changed. I do think there are deep underlying reasons for homosexuality, but we definitely don't understand them all. I have a friend who travelled for 3 years in the Amazon jungle meeting with shamans, who worked closely with him. They were under the impression, that some people are born with a female soul in a male body. Homosexuals are a natural part of the world, and occur in birds and other animals, as well as in traditional human societies, like in the Amazon.
Do not judge us (judge not, les ye be judged). I wish you all love and light, and forgiveness. All of Israel has a portion in the world to come.

(244)
M. Minor,
October 14, 2008 7:01 PM

I am very proud of this man for being so honest. I especially appreciated the part that he faced the truth about himself inspite of voices shouting down their own viewpoints. I believe he will help many struggling with homosexuality. Thank you!

(243)
Mary,
October 14, 2008 2:19 PM

I'm in the middle of my path

I too came to very similar conclusions as David, however i am in the middle of my own person path home. With the amazing help of my family and therapist to guide and support me, i am able to work on the core of my issues and slowly watch my homosexual drives dissapate. Not in a forced, or even sexually focused way but in a reflected way.
As i discover more about my true self, i feel my heart and soul heal, and thus a healthier self is reflected back into the world. For those who aren't homosexuals... this abstract idea will possibly go well over your head (hence i understand your frustraion with the issue) but I HAVE NO DOUBT that homosexually orientated individual reading this will resonate with the idea that it's not just their sexual urges that are different in them. There is something further back in ther self-esteem, in their feelings of belonging, in their family dynamics, in their experiences... that has shaped this distotred reflection of their self. And i'm here to tell them that they don't always have to feel that way!!!
It is not hard for me to understand why people are so passionately opposed or infavour of David's, my and may other peopels view points on this issue but one thing we must not forget. As an outsider to experiencing this issue, one can only be expected to abstractly understand so much and as an insider one can only be expected to express where we ourselves are up to in our own personal journey.
Hence WHY FIGHT.. we're all so underqualified! Just appreciate the fact that we all want this world to be a place where people are able to feel fulfilled and loved, hence lets forget our different biases (because we'll never agree on the external premises) and lets all start on common ground.
"If you have any issue that is causing you any pain in your life. We love you and we're here to try help you in what ever way we can. No judgements, no expectations, no preditermined path. Just humilty in our own weakness and faith in the essence of all G-d creations" Sincere love is the only thing that penerates layers of barriers around ones souls. So lets all work on our own sencerity!
for those interested:
There is so much out there web-sites(NARTH, JONAH) Trained therapist (refer to the websites) and people like me and the few of you, who will always know the truth behind what the world thinks is about pride or equal rights. Lets start living up to our mission of being a light unto the nation. But lets not start with telling people how they should be, but help them to discover it for themselves. Good luck on all your paths.
M

(242)
B. Solomon,
October 13, 2008 12:36 AM

Great Article

What a great article! Thank you so much for sharing, it must have taken great intestinal fortitude (guts) to write so freely about your experiences.

(241)
Anonymous,
October 12, 2008 8:22 AM

To Mordechai 238

Mordechai,
You wrote very honestly. What I feel most terrible about is that you have been told by manipulative gay promoters that the scientific data supports SSA as "not a choice". Therefore, you feel locked into this for a lifetime, and do not have the will to try and seek change, because your boundaries are already defined and limited by what you were told was hard scientific data.
Mordechai, nothing could be further from the truth. I encourage you to do your own research, read the body of evidence that is NOT touted by the gay community, and you will come to a startlingly different conclusion.
This is not to say it is easy to change. It is excruciating. Like all real internal work. Physical urges are very difficult to overcome, regardless of cause.
You have swallowed the gay propaganda of "if you could be with a woman now, you were bi, not gay", but the most tragic victim of gay manipulative propoganda is someone like you. An honest, sincere man who was not given the chance to see a world larger than pseudo-science and gay sound bites.
You mention intellectual honesty. Those who have SSA, work on refraining from indulgence, and are frum, seem to role models of intellectual honesty. They know what is forbidden, and employ incredible self control. They do not pretend and say, I can be frum AND gay. That is an oxymoron. Sexual yetzer hara is not the only yetzer hara out there. Many of us struggle with huge temptations. SSA is a yetzer hara too- why would you think otherwise? Why specifically for this yetzer hara, the answer is, I was born like this, and that's that. How is that response frum?
Mordechai, you can do it. With struggle, with difficult times, but you can. I only address this to you, because your message seemed to be written with real sincerity. Please don't lock yourself in with falsely constructed barriers. By making this your life's work, you will someday look back, as an elderly man, and feel boundless happiness and the deepest pride that you have fulfilled your mission on earth.
The greatest yetzer hara is also the greatest source of our greatness, if addressed in the way G-d wants us to.
You can be great, and know that your 120 years of life on this earth were spent glorifying Hashem's name and connecting to eternity.
In the next world, physical urges don't exist. It will be over like a wispy cloud that passes as we blink. Be kind to yourself, and believe in yourself.

(240)
Leah,
October 10, 2008 2:33 PM

Amazing story

What an excellent & timely article. Thank you so much for sharing. I have been very bothered about this complicated & controversial issue since I became Torah-observant. Since I don't have any gay acquaintances to discuss the subject with, I appreciate your explaining the underlying emotions that contribute to homosexuality for some men. I'm also glad to learn of JONAH & hope to see more of that kind of support for those in need of healing. These issues cannot be ignored by the Jewish community.

(239)
Arthur Goldberg,
October 10, 2008 2:23 PM

BOOK INCORPORATING EXPERIENCES LIKE DAVID'S TO BE RELEASED END OF MONTH

Avigal (#219) suggests that David ought to write a book about his experiences on overcoming same-sex sexual attractions. Please know that experiences of strugglers like David and indeed some of his particular insights are found in a book scheduled for release at the end of this month. The book is entitled LIGHT IN THE CLOSET: TORAH, HOMOSEXUALITY, AND THE POWER TO CHANGE. This comprehsnive and complete work covers the subject matter of same sex attraction from every conceivable angle. It has haskamas printed in the book from Rav Noach Weinberg (commending JONAH for "the services they provide for the many individuals looking for help for this particular struggle"), Rav Michel Twerski (who states,"Light in the Closet", in my humble opinion, is a work so important that it belongs on the desk and in the hands of every Rabbi, Rosh Yeshiva, therapist, social worker, school principal, parent and most critically every SSA sufferer aspring to make himself whole.", Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky (who recommends the book as "very interesting and enlightening") and Rav Zev Leff (who tells us it is "A truly outstanding work. A true kiddush Hashem. The breadth and scope of this work is truly magnificant and it deals with every conceivable angle of this very sensitive issue and leaves one with a well balanced Torah perpective.") In addition, there are over a dozen other incredibly strong endorsements by mental health professionals and other religious leaders. Please check it out on www.redheiferpress.com

(238)
Mordechai,
October 10, 2008 11:20 AM

Normally AISH is great, but with this article, AISH has done everyone a great disservice

As long as I have used AISH as a resource, I have respected AISH for being open-minded and stating that Judaism is not “all-or-nothing,” as they have presented in the article “4 Misconceptions Jews Have About Judaism” and the video “Judaism: All or Nothing?” But with this article, AISH has blemished what I would have considered an otherwise untarnished record. As a frum, gay Jew, I found the article to intellectually dishonest because AISH implicitly presented this story as representative of every gay, frum person’s struggle. I do give a “yasher koach” for David, but the fact that he omitted his attraction for women is telling. Presuming the omission means that he still has SSA, then he’ll be in a world of pain, not only for himself, but also for his family. If he managed to find an attraction for women, that means he was bisexual all along, not homosexual. Also, the whole bit about the “triadic family” is grossly inaccurate. I know people from “triadic families” who are heterosexual, and I know gay people from loving families, myself included. Furthermore, it’s sad to see that David had a confused sense of masculinity and veered off into a world of promiscuity. Again, “yasher koach” for leaving a world of promiscuity. I can safely say that my sense of masculinity has not been skewed by SSA, if anything, it has been enhanced. I have developed healthy same-sex friendships and have plenty of sound male role models. As Michoel (236) stated, there’s a lot of animosity on both sides, and why shouldn’t there be? For the homosexuals, they’re essentially a pariah (being homosexual) within a pariah (being Jewish..of course, being Jewish is a wonderful thing, but unfortunately, many in the world disagree). Many Orthodox Jews feel that the institution of family is being attacked and diminished by the “gay rights movement”, and that scares them greatly. Before I reach my final point, I would like to state that I do not approve of the mainstream gay-rights movement. Their promiscuous sub-culture gives a negative stereotype, one which I neither care for nor emulate in my daily life. With that said, I must say that there is no on/off switch for sexuality, a fact I know that many Orthodox Jews like to deny because it puts a damper on their theory that SSA is a choice. So here is my question for AISH and those who enjoyed this article: What is a gay person suppose to do after therapy, dating women, and intense t’filah, and they still have SSA? Now don’t get me wrong, I believe that the Jewish ideal is one man and woman. But what do you when all the options are exhausted and you still feel SSA? Marry a spouse you don’t really love? There’s not a lot of chesed in entering a relationship where the spouse and the children will be harmed and will inevitably end in divorce. Celibacy doesn’t work because, as we have seen with Catholic priests, repression often leads to something worse. And even if a gay couple were to have some sort of relationship where they partake in lesser violations of halacha, there is still stigma attached. In short, all these options come with a degree of shame and pain. The misconception that the Sages had in the Talmudic period is that homosexuality was an act of defiance, a choice. The great thing I have appreciated about halacha is that all the description of various scenarios acknowledges the complexities in this world. I wish that Orthodoxy would sincerely take this scenario into consideration because the new scientific data presents a different take on sexuality than the Sages had. Plus, no frum Jew should never have to live a life of shame for something he can’t control. If AISH recognizes that this complicated, painful scenario is a reality for many Jews and presents a more balanced, intellectually honest view on something as important as this, I will give AISH kudos. In the meantime, I say “Shame on AISH!” not only for providing a compassionate alternative (rather than a shameful one) for those who are homosexual, but also for deviating from HaEmet by using half-truths.

(237)
Mike,
October 10, 2008 10:50 AM

Thank you Aish- a light in the darkness

Thank you Aish. A beacon in a very muddled time period of confusion.
Thank you David, for sharing your struggle with us, and inspiring us with the courage to begin our own journy to overcome these life challenges.
And to those who indulge in gay behaviors and take pride in it, some are not at fault. We have been conditioned from very young to be "accepting", tolerant of all, and to celebrate all sorts of "differences".
Thank you for helping those of us who still understand right from wrong.
Animals have all sorts of urges which they freely indulge in. For those of us who believe we as humans are not just glorified and sophisticated animals, there is a higher way to live. An animal can live out it's life indulging. We have another purpose.

(236)
Michoel,
October 10, 2008 12:46 AM

Lots of questions

I am hearing a lot of harsh words from both sides of the aisle, and that is not surprising for such a charged issue. Perhaps that is why Chazal prohibited darshening b'inyonei arayos (public Torah discourse in matters pertaining to forbidden sexual acts)
As a frum man dealing with Same Sex Attractions I feel I know a bit about the subject from a perspective that integrates both sides to some extent.
First of all, the Torah prohibits "mishkav zachur" and labels it abomination. No argument about that for any frum person. But, to my knowledge, the Torah says nothing about Same Sex Attraction being prohibited. So it might be a mistake to label a Homosexual a "sinner" if he chooses not to indulge in certain behaviors. That being said, there may be no requirement to change an orientation.
Believe me, I wish David every success, and in one way I respect the encouragement he may be giving other people to at least consider whether they could change their orientation.
But at the same time, I would encourage Aish and anyone seriously examining the issue to look at the statistics and see how many men are successful making this change in the long run. My concern is the women who may knowingly or unknowingly (and David did not mention whether his wife is aware of this struggle) enter a marriage with men who may not be able to maintain their focus on their marriage, even if they do not engage in homosexual behavior.
My heart goes out to Anita (219)and I admire that she can still have such a caring perspective for her husband as she exits a marriage that must have been tremendously painful.
As for H Landau (207), he is Reform and obviously his perspective on Torah with be different than an Orthodox person. I would love to hear Gedolim explaining the Torah perspective to him. It would give him food for thought and be mekarav him to Torah much better than saying "Shame on H Landau". I admire a Reform person who looks to Aish for information....it sounds like he is a man who thinks and wants to learn. Perhaps he would understand our point of view better if we explained it better. But like I said, it is a very complex and charged issue.

(235)
Anonymous,
October 9, 2008 11:44 PM

Sigh..

This article needs another comment like our economy needs another financial debacle, but here goes anyway...
It is sad, the lack of understanding and bigotry shown from so many...what I fail to understand is how this issue is so different from any other.
If Ha-shem just wanted us to "be natural," just follow our inclinations no matter what, then we never would have been given the Torah in the first place.
I have heard shiur after shiur explain that certain tendencies, proclivites, even lusts we are given for one reason: to CHANGE them, to overcome them, to harness them, to mold them, to transcend them. Based on our internal G-d given make up, some mitzvot will be harder to keep than others. If I am naturally heterosexual, then abstaining from the abomination of same-sex relationships will not be a challenge for me. However, if I am born with a highly impatient and/or hot tempered personality, then the commandment not to hurt others with ones words or actions, not to take revenge, not to bear a grudge, not to become angry (!!)etc, will be very very difficult. It can mean a life a struggle and challenge. Does that mean I don't work to try to uproot this tendency? If one is wired for clinical depression, then the mitzvah of always being b'simcha will feel out of reach perhaps more often than not. Does that mean I just accept it and blame G-d because "that's just how he made me"? If one has an addictive personality, exerting control and being a servant to G-d rather than the substance to which one is addicted will be no small matter. If one is by nature very (heterosexually) sexually titilated and not by nature "monogomous," then the directive not to have any pleasure from any woman other than one's wife (if a man has any pleasure from looking at a woman's pinky finger it is considered adultery)may be a life-long struggle.
That's point one.
Point two: Should we identify ourselves with our "natural" orientations, as if that is G-d's "hechsher" of approval, as if that defines us? I AM an angry person! Anger is a glorious gift G-d gave me and I will celebrate it! I AM a depressed person! etc. PLEASE, people, think about what you are saying!! I AM GAY. No, you are a human being with homosexual yearnings/attractions/desires...and many others as well, some for better, some for worse. You are a Jewish neshama, period. You were put in a body and sent here to WORK to perfect yourself, to learn how to limit certain tendencies you were given, transcend others, channel others, and yes, even CHANGE/transform yet others, in the service of G-d and in order to perfect yourself and realize your true potential.
Do we tell our 6 year old kids, "don't bother doing homework. You don't know how to read, G-d just made you that way. Now celebrate that and stop going to school!"??? Learning things that aren't "natural" isn't easy, and it isn't supposed to be. We don't build physical muscles by sitting on the couch, we don't build emotional, intellectual or spiritual muscles by "accepting" our current state. Yes, of course I have to love myself as a child of G-d as a starting point - if I am not worthy of G-d's love, if I am a 'nobody' than I have no reason, no motivation to exert any effort to do better, to be better. Do I despise myself because I was given a nature that makes it very difficult, sometimes on a moment-to-moment basis, to properly observe the Torah and the mitzvot? Of course not. Do I berate myself every time I err/give in to my baser tendencies? Of course not - assuming it was not deliberate or nonchalant, Ha-shem gave us the gift of teshuva, and if we come to Him sincerely my sins can be transformed into merits!
Ha-shem gave me my challenges as opportunities for growth. I thank G-d for the areas in which my nature makes it easy for me to do the mitzvot, and in areas where my nature makes it difficult, I thank G-d for the challenge: the opportunity for growth: I have my work cut out for me. I don't use it as an excuse to justify or even glorify wrong-doing. And, of course, I ask G-d to help me to overcome/work with this challenge, not only for my own sake but for His sake! Can I love G-d and His Torah more than I love my self self self? It's a tall order, but it's acheiveable, even if only on the lowest levels. At least we're trying, and that alone is precious to G-d.
Does G-d love me unconditionally? Yes, AND: G-d help us, our actions DO have consequences, here and now and/or for eternity. The Torah was a gift of love, not a haphazard list of restrictions and confinements, but a guidebook for self refinement, self-realization, and a way to emulate and come close to our Creator. When we deny that, when we think we know better than that, we only hurt ourselves - and, unfortunately the rest of the Jewish people (because we are all connected and all responsible for one another), and the world at large (since we are responsible for the welfare of the world at large). It's like a parent telling a child not to go out in the snow without a coat. The child does it anyway, and G-d forbid comes down with pnuemonia. The parent still loves the child, still wants the child to heal and to have learned his lesson for the future - for the child's sake! The parent doesn't get some self-satisfaction because his child listened to him and wore a coat. The parents concern is the child's welfare. G-d wants our welfare. He has our interest at heart (so to speak) when He gives us the guidebook for life called the Torah. Like children, it seems, many of us roll our eyes and resent all these "rules," "Aw, Dad, c'mon, it's not FAAIR!!!" "But, Mom, I really WANT it!!!!" And when we ignore it's dictates, G-d's instructions and "rules," it is to our own detriment. We hurt ourselves, our loved ones, our souls, our world. G-d loves us even when we rebel, but we're not hurting HIM. We hurt us - and hurt Him because he loves us and doesn't want to see us suffer any more than the parent of the rebellious child now suffering from pneumonia wants his/her child to suffer for not listening to a wisdom greater than his/her own.
There is no commandment to "do whatever you like, as long as you're "nice."
Do we have a right to disdain those whose leanings are homosexual? No, we have the mitzvah to love our fellow Jew, and to love our neighbor as ourself. We cannot justifiably disdain those whose "leaning" is to anger, depression, adulterous (etc etc)behaviors - or those who desecrate the Shabbat. However, does that make it okay to act out of ones innate tendency for anger, homosexuality, heterosexual promiscutity, greed (etc etc)? No way!
We hate the sin, not the sinner. Not an easy distinction. We cannot with integrity pretend that ACTIONS that are angry, depressed, adulturous (or homosexual) are "okay" according to G-d and the Torah, because they're not.
We are responsible for our actions, and we have no excuses (G-d help us!!) before G-d. All we can do is the best we can do to be the best we can be, and as one commentor said, mold ourselves to the Torah, not the other way around.
Regardless of the origin of David's SSA, I found this piece honest and beautifully written which speaks to the crux of any and every human struggle which seeks to transform the self and extract oneself from the mire of 'pre-determinism' and multi-layered societal and self justifications and excuses in order to re-create oneself in the image of G-d. Not an easy task. The fact that this particular struggle was that of homosexuality makes it hot-button for a lot of people, but for me it was secondary factor to the simple struggle for self, for clarity, for truth, for transformation and transcedence.

(234)
Anonymous,
October 9, 2008 10:09 PM

thanks be to G_d

we can justify our lusts based on our past, or we can rise above our past and live for something higher than our base nature. G_d is not a democracy that He wants our vote on His laws. Everything He said is for our good. we are his children, He wants only for our good. He knows homosexuality will cause confusion and pain in our life, and as our Father, He wants better for us. Always we can choose wrong, adultery, coveting, stealing, daily we choose. His laws are for our good. thank you for sharing your story. I deal with different issues in my walk with the father, but I am inspired to walk closer because of you.

(233)
Ester again,
October 9, 2008 9:45 PM

Hey, did anyone notice the subtitle?

It says "My PERSONAL struggles with homosexuality" (caps mine). No condemning. No overgeneralizing. Purely honest, personal story. Now what are you gays complaining about?

(232)
Shlomo,
October 9, 2008 9:32 PM

True Blessings

Yom Kippur has passed, and it has been several days since Joe Kort posted the following:
1. However, I hope you also see that the truth for many of the others who are struggling with SSA is that they truly are gay and lesbian and living in congruence with who they really are *is* the right way to live.
2. I hope an article from AISH comes out about gay and lesbian Jews who are Orthodox (I know many), or otherwise and how both being gay and Jewish is being Twice Blessed. It is for me. Warmly, Joe Kort
I promised myself not to react to this comment in a knee jerk but rather to ruminate on the comment. However, my mind keeps going back to the same responses:
1. If I had been a client of Joe Kort, I may have been advised to live
"in congruence with who I 'really am'". As I reflect on 33 years of marriage to the same wonderful woman, I would ask Mr. Kort, if I HAD made the choice you suggest, where would my wonderful children and grandchildren be? What would have been with the mitzvot they do, the Torah they study and the tikkun olam they bring to the world? I am not even asking about the nachas they bring my wife and me. The question I ask regards THEIR place in the world. Isn't it worth that I struggle with a yetzer horah rather than live a life that would deny them existence?
While the US Constitution encourages us to "pursue happiness" the Torah makes few references to happiness except us to serve Him in joy. That joy emanates from the performance of His will and not some vague "self actualization."
2. The only "blessing" in having SSA is that it is a clearly identifiable yetzer horah as opposed to one that is not clearly identifiable. But the notion that it is a blessing as a behavior or lifestyle is preposterous. The first place blessing of mankind is mentioned in the Torah is when G-d creates man and blesses him, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill up the earth." How can one possibly think that it is a blessing to hold to an identity that is diametrically opposite that commandment ]and its attached blessing?
I just want to add, for the benefit of those who ask about attraction to women or the stability of marriage to a man struggling with SSA, that my love for my wife grows with each passing day. Our marriage grows stronger. I know other strugglers who are married and, like with any marriage, there are ups and downs. Every marriage has challenges - the bottom line is that our love for spouse is based on shared goals and shared experiences and that includes the sexual glue that holds marriages together.

(231)
Anonymous,
October 9, 2008 9:17 PM

Thanks for this article

David, I am glad that you have found peace with yourself. Your self-analysis was interesting to read. Although I still believe that sexual preference is genetically predisposed for MOST people, your story shows that an environment can have a significant effect on all aspects of our lives, particularly our sexual choices. Again, I am happy that you have found yourself and that you chose to share your story.

(230)
Anthony,
October 9, 2008 8:01 PM

I respectfuly disagree

You know, I am never at a loss for words or how to express myself on any given topic. That said I don't know where to start.

(229)
Simone, Jerusalem,
October 9, 2008 4:15 PM

Who is the real bigot?

I find it very interesting that so many of the self-defined homosexuals responding to this extremely courageous and honest article, could find no better answer than to accuse Aish.com of anti-homosexual bigotry (when all they did was allow one man to tell his story) and to attempt to negate the validity of that story by asserting that David was never really homosexual to begin with. What makes them the arbiters of whether or not he was a homosexual? It seems to me that it is they who are the real bigots - and they remind me rather of the so-called "pro-choice" lobby, who are all in favour of "choice" only as long as the choice is in favour of abortion.

(228)
Anonymous,
October 9, 2008 9:55 AM

Modern Inquisition: homophobia

I spent tens of years first alone, terrified of being found out for my deep desire and love of other men (never women), crying in the therapist´s offices and today I am still dealing with languising feelings of shame, disgust and self hate from that fear in spite coming out to myself, my family my Latin American Jewish community and my country, having a loving partner for 11 years and enjoying my personal realization. These changes are comparable to the end of slavery, the end of racial discrimination, the end of oppression against women which have been embraced by judaism, including orthodox judaism. I hope this will include homophobia, and the people at Jonah and Narth will be compared to a "well-meaning" KKK and a modern Inquisition. I have decided to help people suffer less than I did.
I studied sexuality, and I suggest the writer of the article check if he confuses anal pleasure and other practices with men with sexual orientation, they are two different aspects of identity. The writer does not seem to be very attracted to his wife either, so either he repressed his same sex attraction or is asexual. I am happy he dealt with his sexual addiction.

(227)
Marilyn,
October 9, 2008 7:21 AM

Proud of your courage and honesty

Thank you for sharing your experience and revelation on Aish, for othersw to glean from. I am proud of you for sharing your heart and giving a healty viewpoint of true masculinity and how a little boy's heart can get twisted into the deep pit of perversion that homosexuality is. It saddens me when men defend the "gay" lifestyle, when everyone is aware that there is nothing gay about it, become so venemous and strike out at anyone who opposes their way of thinking. I am glad that youy exist my brother, keep shedding the light so others trapped in the darkness of homosexuality can have hope that they can change and come out of bondage.

(226)
yosef,
October 9, 2008 7:11 AM

To: H. Landau,

Yes, the jewish take on homosexuality is that it is an "abomination" it is seen as unhealthy, unnatural and a sin which we read today on yom kipur in shul. Like all sins they are not to be encouraged, or dealt with by making them a non-sin but like all problems, they are meant to be dealt with in the most sensitive effective way possible to ensure a return to g-d (teshuva). Trying to make wrong actions "OK" by whatever rationalizing gymnastics you do will not change the facts that you are doing the wrong thing. Oh yes and by the way there IS ultimate right and wrong in the world. And G-d loves you .

(225)
lina,
October 9, 2008 6:47 AM

I just wonder: a part from finding manly Heroes in the bible, is this man now attracted to women? 'Cause he seems to skate over this point, which is quite important, to sombody that so strongly wants to be "straight".

(224)
dm ifould,
October 9, 2008 1:48 AM

shame on you H Landau

Shame on you H Landau
Do you read the Chumash or Torah ? If you do sincerely in your heart then you would undertsand that G-d Does not care about modern or ancient, G-ds Laws are fixed unchanging for all time . While G-d may love you , G-d does not love Paedophilia , Homosexuality , same sex or different sex raoe or abuse it is an abomination a mockery of G-ds Law and rules for the creation . Do you really think that G-d like the Modern Western World and America and the cult of post modern amercianism and the cult of the individual , shoul negotiate and change His laws and the way Creation iis meant to work and run to suit you ? I feel sorry for you because all this negotiation and watering down of G-ds rules and ways is blindsiding you causing a greater distance between you and your Creator.

(223)
dora,
October 8, 2008 9:06 PM

THANK YOU AISH FOR YOUR OPEN MIND!

i LOVE this website and I just want to encourage all the brave editors and the writer for posting this up! This firestorm is symptomatic that you have touched a nerve. I'm sending a link to this article to many, many people. So, be not dismayed for the ones leaving...BYE!!!
And love them enough to take them back if they come back!

(222)
Carol,
October 8, 2008 5:36 PM

Thank you!

Thank you, David, for your vulnerability and honesty regarding your homosexual desires and recovery. You are an inspiration!

(221)
Manasseh,
October 8, 2008 4:26 PM

Thankyou David

Qustion, "SHOULD WE BEND THE TORAH or SHOULD THE TORAH BEND US"?
In other words is G-D dictating to us or are we dictating to HASHEM?
David, like your namesake the Old King David you have come upon a subject too huge and avoided by most even though the Torah is abundantly clear about it.
Now you know what Noah felt when he came up with the subject of building an Ark
Let us remember what this season is about and beware of trying to box Almighty G-D into our selfish idiosyncrasies and 20th century status quos
Kudos to those who see the truth, call it truth and decide to please almighty because when the dust setlles and at the end of the day.
Toda David

(220)
Anonymous,
October 8, 2008 3:16 PM

Terrible, just terrible

It hurts so much to see Jews against other Jews. We have enough people against us as it is. I respect David's decision to move toward what he felt is right, but his story is by no means representative of the entire gay population. Being gay is not a choice. Making people feel accepted and loved should be the ultimate goal of Judaism. I have had great experiences with Aish and I understand the organization's conservative bent, but shame on you for listing this as a featured article.

(219)
anita,
October 8, 2008 2:47 PM

wow, this is powerful!

Thank you, David, for your comments. My soon to be ex husband is gay, but refuses to acknowledge it. He claims he's "bisexual", however, most of his most intense relationships are with other gay men.
I pray he comes around like you did and does teshuva before it is too late. He is very very physically sick and may not have too many days left.
a.

(218)
Avigail,
October 8, 2008 2:36 PM

Touching, but still I have a question

David,
Yasher Koach, I have been very touched by your inspiring story. I see HaShem's hand in your life, and your commitment to Him is an encouragement for us all. The thing is that I like another reader also noticed something significant in your article. The lack of women. Yes we hear you talk about leaving the gay world behind, but still the only people you mention is men. Ok so your relationships with men are now "kosher" but what about your attraction to women? I think this is a very very very important part of the story you left out. Maybe it is something you still struggle with? I don't know. But if you are going to share this story, please share also how you gained an attraction for a sex you previously had a revulsion for. And David, please write a book! This is a much needed help for our Jewish world. Kol a'kovod.

(217)
Anonymous,
October 8, 2008 11:29 AM

...

The idea that someone can 'change' their sexual orientation is a Evangelical Christian concept, which the frum community seems to want to emulate more every day, as fundamentalists ignoring the intellectualism and truth of our own religion.
Many overweight women are depressed all the time, or children who fail at school. Maybe if they seek G-d, then can be thin or smarter, also?

(216)
Mortaryan,
October 8, 2008 9:49 AM

Honest assessment of Homosexuality

This article is an honest assessment of Homosexuality. And to explain what homosexuality is, is not persecuting it (and a defensive reaction proves certain points the article makes IMHO).
There is sexual response is genetic (that studies have shown can be stimulated mechanistically, regardless of sexual orientation), sexual identity is also biologically determined by ones gender (Male, Female, hermaphroditic/true trans-gendered), and sexual orientation rests on one's biological gender, and all three can be psychologically, emotionally and sociologically, reinforced and or arrested, purposely and or circumstantially, by abuse and or neglect, and or personal entrainment.
In recent times Homosexuality (and many others forms of psychological, emotional, and or sociological dysfunctions) has been egocentrically justified as a natural and or healthy “lifestyle” choice, that is not really a choice but genetic and or biological...but is in fact nothing but a psychologically and sociological reinforced choice to subsist, in a state less than full potential, reinforced and justified by political ideology and selective social reinforcement.
An example of selective social reinforcement is post-op Male to female pseudo-trans-gendered who experience a complete elimination of sexual pleasure and sexual gratification (and must relearn their sexual responses psychologically and somatically), and hide this fact (among many others) from other pre-op “trans-gendered.” Post-op female to males pseudo-trans-gendered have their own biological and physical defects (psychological, emotional and sociological dysfunction aside), such as artificial “pseudo-male” aggression from hormone therapy, etc., that they hide from pre-op female to males pseudo-trans-gendered. These are just a few of the long laundry list of defects and negative results as fact of sexual reassignment surgery, that proves an ideological, and or psychological justification for a scientifically untenable position.
There are many justifications for homosexuality, , genetics, psychological, biological, all of them based on flawed logic, selective unscientific studies, and are all allegorical.
And references to examples of history are based on immoral, exploitive, abusive, patriarchal slave cultures, of which a fragmented dualistic theology/spirituality is indicative as well. That also did not have the benefit of God's revelations, let alone qualities of self investigation, self discovery, egoic transcendence, and transcendental self affirmation. The natural tendency of these civilizations was to placate and nurture the lowest and bases common denominator in human existence
They were abusive and neglective exploitive slave societies and cultures disposed toward impulse gratification of a sociological, psychological and emotional arrested development, and aggressive exploitation of people as cattle.
They were abusive and neglective societies as a rule opposed to cultivate the highest human qualities and potential and establish an environment and society that nurtures human potential spiritually, psychologically and emotionally, and produces truly fulfilled, healthy, happy and whole human individuals.

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s ehrlich,
October 8, 2008 9:44 AM

Shame on you H. Landau (207)

H. Landau you call your self jewish but you dont realize that the torah that makes you jewish is totaly anti-gay. you are reform meaning not listening to everything that G-D writes in the torah (bible)

(214)
pierre,
October 8, 2008 9:43 AM

thank you

Hi
thank you for telling the truth about homosexuality. I used to be gay myself, and my story is so similiar. In a society that appears so accepting but doesn't really care about anothers well being.. it is an especially hard to tell the truth like this.
thank you.

(213)
David S,
October 8, 2008 8:58 AM

Everyone's an expert!?

All those who try to put down Orthodoxy by saying that we are intolerant and that really homosexuality is kosher are correct. We are intolerant of pathetic opinions of people who do not know about Torah expressing their "views". These people would not taken seriously for "expressing their views" on other subjects that they do not know anything about so why for the Holy Torah should they be taken seriously?

(212)
Rebecca,
October 8, 2008 8:19 AM

Bravo!

Even though I am a happily married woman (thank God), I found David's story powerful, moving and relevant. It can inspire anyone who is not in a healthy relationship, or who is living a life of deception or a life wedded to the material, to reexamine their deepest motivations. I see this article really pushed the buttons of one commentator--whose mind and heart are, at this point, closed to the truth about the traumatic, pornographic, abusive subculture of homosexuality. This writer couches his/her massive, entrenched denial in terms of the most obvious projection. Something in this piece pushed his/her buttons-what was it? To this writer: the "slant" of this piece and others is not "orthodox". The "slant" is Torah. This is your heritage too, the truth of who you really are, a Jew who has a wonderful opportunity to learn where you come from, what your life's mission is, and how Torah is the instruction book for your life, as it is for every Jew. David is no longer fooling himself and trying to repair the suffering imposed on him by inadequate parents. He (and I am assuming his wife) have bravely faced the truth and are building a good, spiritual life of truth. They are real heroes. This is real teshuvah--teshuvah inside-out and outside-in.
As for anti-gay, this piece is the complete opposite. Telling someone "you are gay, this is who you are, you have no choice"--now that is anti-gay. Judaism is about truly loving a person identifying himself as gay so much that it says, "don't be limited by this--see the divine nature of your soul, and seek holiness." That is what Torah does. That is what God does. By saying "you don't have to live this life of degradation, materialism and limitations --you are greater than that, holier than that" by not accepting the patronizing (and Nazi-like) view that some kind of anatomy is destiny, the Torah frees us to be who we really are, children of God.

(211)
David S,
October 8, 2008 8:12 AM

Obligation to be Holy

A person who is born a Jew remains a Jew whether heterosexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual. Nobody is taking away that identity, certainly not the Orthodox community. As Jews we keep the Torah which was given to us by the Creator of the Universe, G-d Himself. In the Torah, G-d commands us to be Holy both as individuals and as His Nation. One of the many ways in which we achieve that holiness is to refrain from homosexual relations. The Torah is not telling us that a meaningful, loving, caring relationship cannot exist in this way. Rather in order to achieve holiness we must not participate in these types of relationships. David who has chosen to accept his Jewish identity and follow the path prescribed by G-d should not be criticized. One might also be able to claim that Aish is anti-heterosexual because it promotes Torah values. In a world where promiscuity and hedonism is the norm, the requirement to be faithful to one partner, THROUGH MARRIAGE, to refrain from looking at others of the opposite sex in a sexual way (even those dressed modestly) and requirement to avoid physical contact under certain circumstances (menstruation, Yom Kippur etc) simply does not fit in with the standards of the non-Torah world, which by far is the majority. So please do not be a narrow-minded bigot and get upset with Aish for publishing an article based on their beliefs which you do not have an understanding of.

(210)
Rachel,
October 8, 2008 8:05 AM

Good article

I found this article to be informative, and inspiring about how someone can change such a fundamental aspect of themselves. As for H. Landau, I'm sure you are aware the aish.com is an Orthodox Jewish site, and Orthodoxy holds that homosexuality is a grave sin punishable by death. Do you expect orthodox Jews to accept something called an "abomination" by the Torah just for the sake of being open-minded?

(209)
Beth,
October 8, 2008 6:20 AM

The saddest aspect, in my view

I respect the decision of homosexual frum men and women to not act upon their homosexual inclinations. After all, it is everyone's choice--heterosexual or homosexual--whether to act upon their physical desires or not. The saddest aspect though, in my view, is when they choose to marry a person whom they cannot and will not fully love, from the depths of their heart. They are depriving their spouses of the joy that comes with a true union of souls. Their spouse will never know how it feels to have a spouse who views him/her as their bashert--who longs for, adores, and desires them. They will never rest safe and secure in the comfort of knowing that their spouse's world is made so much brighter by their presence.
By remaining single, the frum homosexual makes a decision for him/herself alone, by marrying, they are bringing other unwitting individuals (both their spouse and any potential children) into the equation as well.

(208)
Yosef (convert),
October 8, 2008 6:13 AM

Response to Landau - I also attracted to the same sex, yet - WITHOUT Torah, Jews are no different from others.

To (207) H. Landau:
Bigotry? Are only liberal opinions allowed? A person can feel, think, or do whatever he wants, so long as it doesn't violate liberalism? Is the "Reform" stance the official Jewish stance? WHO CARES ABOUT a "Jewish stance." Jews are people, we answer to the Creator, blessed is He. Jewish opinion is NOTHING in opposition to His Torah. And if you deny Torah or consider its presumed human authors bias, what makes their bias any different than yours? If you consider Torah-'Judaism' a man-made religion, is not "Reform" self-admittedly all the more so?
By the way, the writer of the article never denied homosexuality, he simply CHOOSE to not allow his feelings to rule him. Liberals are all about "choice" right? A 'straight' guy can choose to never marry or to experiment with gay stuff, but a 'gay' guy can't choose to abstain?
Disgusting.

(207)
H. Landau,
October 7, 2008 10:57 PM

Shame on you aish.com!

As a Reform Jew with an open mind and an open heart, I can't believe you would highlight such an anti-gay and hateful portrayal of one man's "journey." I was startled and saddened to read such bigotry on this website! It's cowardly to post a first-person account of "denying homosexuality" when you're clearly representing it as though it were the official Jewish stance against homosexuality. May I remind you that not all Jews are so closed minded? I used to see this website as a great source for Jewish information (although I always remind myself that there is certainly an Orthodox slant to everything). I've found it helpful when I planned my Jewish wedding, celebrate holidays, and do research on other Jewish topics. I would like to see aish.com OWN UP to all the criticism and post an explanation about your anti-gay leanings. I will think twice about using this website for information in the future.

(206)
Anonymous,
October 7, 2008 10:08 PM

I'm not gay but I understand

I have 3 very close gay friends who are not really ever happy. One of them could be classified as depressed most of the time. It all comes down to displeasure from within themselves, not from how society treats them. I wish they could someday see what "David" saw in realizing that he was not created that way. I think they actually might be happy if they did.

(205)
Shimon,
October 7, 2008 9:40 PM

An often ignored subject...

As a fellow Orthodox Jew that has battled with Homosexuality. I gotta say how great it is to see something published on the subject. Too often the frum world ignores the issue. Jonah are a great organisation that helped me, and continue to support me to this day.

(204)
Rochelle,
October 7, 2008 8:00 PM

amazingly honest and very motivating

I deeply appreciated your honesty and willingness to share. Even if my struggle with an eating disorder is different, the dynamics of any pathalogical illness is quite similar. I also tend to make up excuses rather than face up to the plate so to speak. It gave me a lot to think about and for that I'm very grateful.

(203)
Joel,
October 7, 2008 7:34 PM

:::the Torah portion read on Yom Kippur, does it not state: You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination.(Lev. 18:22):::::
I've heard this quoted a thousand times, and I can't help but think that this is a condemnation of bisexuality, not homosexuality. Anyhow, it's preposterous to argue that homosexuality is dictated by 'nurture,' not nature. The science is overwhelming. If 'David' wants to continue suppressing his homosexuality, that's his choice. But, his rationalization throughout the article makes me think that he's never going to be happy with this decision.

(202)
Anonymous,
October 7, 2008 6:24 PM

Not all gay men struggle with homosexuality

I have tremendous sympathy for the author's difficult childhood and the struggles for self that resulted. I was blessed to grow up in a healthy family with two wonderful parents. Looking back, it was clear that from the time my younger brother was small, long before either of us knew what sexuality was, there were signs that he would be gay. The life that David describes is not the life my brother has lived. He is a good, loving,decent man, in a committed relationship for over fifteen years. They own a farm, they pay taxes and bills, they have moments of joy and struggle like the rest of it. They are both leaders in their small, upstate NY community. In short, they are as married as are my husband and myself. Leviticus says that a man should not lie with a man as with a woman. They do not break this commandment, as neither of them would lie with a woman. They are men. They are men worthy of honor and respect.

(201)
Dj Twin,
October 7, 2008 6:01 PM

G-d is for everyone, not just the straight

Who shall be without sin, shall cast the first stone.
In an effort to only speak to the writings, I will state that this type of article is not only harmfull but destroys responsible thinking.
It is okay to suggest that your homosexuality is environmental. However there is scientific evidence that backs up a understanding that Homosexuality is NOT an environmental issue.
I feel that you were never homosexual. You might have been led to think you were. You might have been prejudiced against the straight people around you. I do not however think you were or are a homosexual.
As a gay male, I do not have self esteem issues. I do not have self loathing. I do not blame anyone for something g-d gave me. Being a gay man is a gift. It is a joy.
Until the straight world wants to make it something else, it is Salem for me.
The Torah can be interpretted in many ways.
You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination.(Lev. 18:22)
What g-d was telling you is that you should not orgy yourself sexually. That sexually it is an abomination to use sex for sport. Lying with a women as you lie with a man is an ORGY. It does not speak to anything about loving your partner. It does not speak to saying lying with a man is an abomination. It simply says
You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination.(Lev. 18:22)
Do not Orgy. Do not deminish the love of g-d and what he has given you by spreading your seed among many at once.
Reverting this passage to a declaration that homosexuality is an abomination is not responsible considering the volumes of passages that dictate non judgement of g-d children. This one passage has for thousands of years been interpretted to suit the needs of biggots and judgers. Those that want g-d for themselves. Those that want to divide and discriminate.
If you are a real homosexual, there is no question as to why you are a homosexual.
It is a gift from g-d. Nothing more, nothing less.
In the same spirit of any sexuality given to us as his children. It is a gift.
Stop using the word of g-d and his followers to tear people into submission.
It is nice you told your story. However it only solidfy's my understanding of who I am. Who I have always been.
I congratulate you on your children and your life.
I hope you would do the same for me.

(200)
Louis,
October 7, 2008 5:59 PM

Thank G-d for JONAH (jonahweb.org)

When our son "came out". We had no where to turn. Our doctor, who has a "gay" son stated some kids are just wired different. He suggested PFLAG.
Although the people at PFLAG were quite friendly and had a sincere interest, it just did not make sense to us. They just wanted us to accept this on their say so. This was not acceptable. This was not a good enough reason when the life and happiness of our only child is at stake.
Then the search for an answer was on. Public library = nothing, book stores in my city = nothing, the internet = everything said they are "gay", live with it. This was so bizarre.
Fortunately for us, in a book store out of state, the book COMING OUT STRAIGHT, by Richard Cohen caught my eye. On the back page was an endorsement from JONAH, (JEWS OFFERING NEW ALTERNATIVES TO HOMOSEXUALITY). Well, an e-mail was sent without a phone number. Arthur Goldberg sensed the importance of the situation and he took it upon himself to track me down.
This conversation brought me to tears.
Finally something made sense. Now there is a reason, now the pieces of the puzzle are coming together.
If anyone, regardless of religion, has questions on how to deal with unwanted Same Sex Attraction themselves or support for a family dealing with homosexual issues, contact JONAH today.
We know our son is not happy. We know our son is lonely. We know our son is looking for answers but due to political correctness, nobody will give it to him. As with many SSA kids, they do not trust their parents. It is a sad situation that no more families should have to suffer.
Obviously, since nobody is born "gay", there must be logical reasons. Check them out today.
Here is an excellent story I heard while listening to Dr. Stephen Covey's THE 7 HABITIS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE. The source is anonymous:
DON’T BE FOOLED BY ME - PLEASE… HEAR WHAT I’M NOT SAYING .... Anonymous
“Don’t be fooled by me. Don’t be fooled by the mask I wear. For I wear a mask, I wear a thousand masks, masks that I’m afraid to take off, and none of them is me. Pretending is an art that is second nature with me, but don’t be fooled.
I give the impression that I’m secure, that all is sunny and unruffled with me, within as well as without, that confidence is my name and coolness is my game, that the waters are calm and I’m in command ands I need no one. But don’t believe it, please don’t.
My surface may seem smooth, but my surface is my mask, my ever-varying and ever-concealing mask. Beneath lies no smugness, no coolness, no complacence. Beneath dwells the real me, in confusion, in fear, in loneliness. But I hide this, I don’t want anybody to know it. I panic at the thought of my weakness being exposed. That’s why I frantically create a mask to hide behind, a nonchalant sophisticated façade to help me pretend, to shield me from the glance that knows. But such a glance is precisely my salvation. My only salvation. And I know it. It’s the only thing that can liberate me from myself, from my own self-built prison walls, from the barriers I so painstakingly erect. But I don’t tell you this. I don’t dare. I’m afraid to.
I’m afraid your glance will not be followed by love and acceptance. I’m afraid that you will think less of me, that you’ll laugh and your laugh will kill me. I’m afraid that deep down inside I’m nothing, that I’m just no good, and that you’ll see and reject me. So I play my games, my desperate, pretending games, with a façade of assurance on the outside and a trembling child within. And so begins the parade of masks, the glittering but empty parade of masks. And my life becomes a front.
I idly chatter with you in the suave of surface talk. I tell you everything that’s really nothing, nothing of what’s crying within me. So when I’m going through my routine, don’t be fooled by what I’m saying. Please listen carefully and try to hear what I’m NOT saying: what I’d like to be able to say, what, for survival, I need to say but I can’t say. I dislike hiding. Honestly I do. I dislike the superficial phony games I’m playing.
I’d really like to be genuine, spontaneous, and me, but you have to help me. You have to help me by holding out your hand, even when that’s the last thing I seem to want or need. Each time you are kind and gentle and encouraging, each time you try to understand because you really care, my heart begins to grow wings. Very small wings. Very feeble wings. But wings. With your sensitivity and sympathy and your power of understanding, I can make it. You can breathe life into me. It will not be easy for you. A long conviction of worthlessness builds strong walls. But love is stronger than strong walls, and therein lies my hope. Please try to beat down those walls with firm hands, but with gentle hands, for a child is very sensitive, and I AM a child.
Who am I, you may wonder? I am someone you know very well. For I am every man, every woman, every child…. every human you meet.”
Louis

(199)
Claudemiro,
October 7, 2008 3:43 PM

Truth will always win

I have to confess that I don´t understand everything in such a test like this but I am glad that truth has been spread all around the world. I wish to see these things in my country, Brazil.
Best,
Claudemiro (Claudio)

(198)
josh,
October 7, 2008 3:35 PM

take it off

i think that this article should be removed since it is creating a controversy, honestly i dont agree with david but i accept that he is straight and i am bi and i am not tyring to be bias however thats not the only way for this to happen(sexuality that is) and its not the only way to stop/start it either. a divided house cannot win and i believe that sexuality is something that should not be a big deal like it is now! why cant we just let people be and worry about ourselves? does it not say that in Torah? do we not learn that in Psychology? i say live and let live, others say die! if you want to discuss it at least dont be so hostile or volital and take me as an example I strongly dissagree with this David, however i am restraining myself to a peacful roar, vs. wat most of you tend to do and blow up we can come together as one and win in this fight if we just do it peacefully and i hope we ALL agree to accept them* for who they are (*the other side of you) and not to condemn them^^ to a life outside of Judaism

(197)
Pike,
October 7, 2008 3:32 PM

Great!

THIS IS GREAT!

(196)
Anonymous,
October 7, 2008 3:30 PM

David,
Stay strong. Please don't let gay bigots cast a shadow on your day. The primary intolerance displayed here and elsewhere is gay individuals' intolerance of anyone who has practiced gay behavior and desires to change.
I guess it feels traitorous to them, or somehow threatens their assertions.
The heroes are those who are challenged with SSA who avoid forbidden behavior, and those who strive to change and grow.
And truly, the funniest comment on this thread was the one which stated something to the effect of, don't we need more Jewish children? How can we stop these individuals from marrying and bringing children into the world? I kid you not, the last five words of the quote are verbatim. Someone thinks gay couples could themselves bring children into the world.
There are countless Jewish couples on adoption waiting lists, hoping for a child. So no help needed there...
Yes, we need more Jewish children. And that is exactly what gay behavior negates.

(195)
Laurel,
October 7, 2008 2:03 PM

Disappointed

I was so disappointed after reading this article. I was hoping to read an article celebrating homosexuality but instead was subjected to the same nonsense about being "cleansed" of homosexuality. I am sure Sarah Palin would love this jibberish.

(194)
sisi,
October 7, 2008 12:11 PM

Being straight my only exposure to homosexuality is through friends of mine. ALL of them tried hard to be straight, some became Orthodox, they prayed and they struggled. And guess what? They are gay, and their lives finally settled down and became normal when they admitted to it. None of them came from dysfunctional families, they were just born different from the norm.
OF COURSE, gay men and women have higher rates of substance abuse and suicide and depression. DUH, they have a world telling them to change and that they are damned and not allowed the same freedoms straight people get. Honestly, wouldn't you be a bit depressed?
Maybe "David" wasn't really gay, or he's bi, or he's gay and has successfully lied to himself and his family. I don't know. But he CANNOT speak for the millions of gay people out there. Nor can he know their stories.
"David" should not be making life even harder for the gay Jews out there. His choices are choices. Being gay is not a choice, admitting it and living a responsible gay life are. Promiscuity and being too focused on sex is a problem with the straight community too. There are plenty of nice normal gay couples out there raising good kids (often the kids no one else will adopt b/c they are the "wrong" age or color)
I hope that Judaism doesn't succumb to sending gay kids to "camps" like some evangelicals do where they abuse and mentally torture teenagers and probably raise that suicide and depression rate even higher.
Maybe someone should be asking for atonement for making the lives of many people he's not met and knows nothing about even harder.

(193)
Ethel,
October 7, 2008 11:52 AM

Twin science tells us @ homosexuality

Gay activism has mislead people into thinking homosexuality is inborn, for understandable reasons. Discrimination against those who feel SSA is disgraceful. However, the science is there for those who are brave enough to search out the truth. All the studies which purport to show a genetic or biological basis for SSA have serious flaws: hand-picked samples, small sample population, no control groups, inappropriate control groups, inability to get the same results the next time, etc., etc. SSA men & women, and their families deserve to know the best truth we have at this time. Go to www.mygenes.co.nz and download a free book called "My Genes Made Me Do it". Read the book and see if you can still say anyone is "born gay." Read about the massive twin studies that have been done in several countries over decades. The result? Identical twins are DISCORDANT for SSA @ 90% of the time !! Anyone who knows anything about science knows that twin studies are the best way to discover what is genetic. Let's love our homosexual brothers and sisters enough to tell them the truth and let them decide what to do with their lives.

(192)
Barbara,
October 7, 2008 11:50 AM

The tone of the comments

I have read ALL the comments and I found that those who disagree with this article lean towards scorn and nastiness. If I knew nothing about the issue but had to decide which side I could support, I would go with the position of the man who wrote this article. The comments that support homosexuality have the flavour of tainted water. I can understand people arguing with God, I have done a lot of that myself. And I always won those arguments BUT only after I changed my thinking. God, on the other hand, does not change with the times. His love endures forever. For this unchanging character we can all be grateful. May the God of Israel shine in the lives of His people.

(191)
Anonymous,
October 7, 2008 11:13 AM

Such a charged reaction!

It is without a shade of doubt that homosexuality is forbidden under Jewish Law. G-d created the world and presented us with the Torah, the way to optimally live in the world with all its challenges. We are taught that we are here to do mitzvot and pass tests. Throughout our communal and individual histories, our personal tests have always been difficult. That's why they're called TESTS. Why it is this particular topic such a charged one?

(190)
Ester,
October 7, 2008 9:49 AM

Judy in Atlanta (187)

You are a bigger expert on Torah than all those liberals twisting G-d's Word around 180 degrees. If the Torah says, You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination.(Lev. 18:22), there's no way to make it mean "homosexual behavior is kosher".

(189)
Ester,
October 7, 2008 9:30 AM

What?!

"Homosexual sex is an abomination" sounds christian to you? How about "Love you neighbor" or the idea of monotheism - did we also copy those from the christians?
The christian way is to say that Sabbath is Sunday, pork is ok, circumcision is unnecessary - sounds a lot to me like "the ban on homosexuality is obsolete".

(188)
Michael,
October 7, 2008 8:14 AM

Truth and Lies

What is clear on reading the huge number of responses to this provocative article is that the anti-gay bigots use 'proofs' of their argument by quoting discredited and often silly pseudopsychology and self-righteous pronouncements on their feeble understanding of sexuality to justify their bizarre, unintelligent ideas. One person actually wrote that a straight man will 'become' gay if he has been rebuffed by a woman. Such nonsense. Hillel's statement that one should not judge another person until one has been in his place is a good place to start. As clear thinking gay people, we have a responsibility to educate without patronising the misinformed homophobes, but regretably, I suspect, as with all phobics, presenting the truth will fail to convince those who are determined to think that the Torah forbids mutual love and respect, regardless of gender.

(187)
Judy In Atlanta,
October 7, 2008 7:47 AM

But...

I'm, unfortunately, no expert on Torah. But...the Torah portion read on Yom Kippur, does it not state: You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination.(Lev. 18:22)?
I liked the article, and hearing of David's struggle and finding happiness. I had father issues when I was growing up, and am still trying to overcome them. I turned to food to deal with it. This article gave me hope that I, too, can find strength through the Almighty to become the person I want to be.

(186)
Anonymous,
October 7, 2008 7:32 AM

well thoughtout. emotionally charged

One of the most eloquent articles I have ever read on this topic.
I am familiar with JONAH and know the work they can help people with, if they show up for themselves and their desire to grow into their real self.

(185)
Ashley,
October 7, 2008 2:51 AM

Homosexual Authenticity

Expressing affection, being responsible, displaying courage in the face of bigotry & being honest are the hallmarks of true manhood. My sense of masculinity is in no way connected to what gender I am aroused by. Sexual promiscuity is a behaviour linked to fear of intimacy and psychological insecurity and is not a condition that is exclusively exhibited by homosexual men. Substance abuse occurs in the absence of sense of self, not in the presence of sexuality, gay or otherwise. I find it ironic that aish.com is labelling Jewish homosexual men as being somehow un-Jewish just for being themselves when historically Jews have been persecuted for simply being their Jewish self. We have to reconcile ourselves as a whole community with the estrangment of gay Jewish men, not therapize homosexuality out of Judaism.

(184)
Joe,
October 7, 2008 2:49 AM

This article certainly presents a comfortable view

I do not doubt the author',s individual sincerity. However, isn',t comfortable for a certain set of Observant Jews to imagine that what the author wrote is true for all gay people?
How enticing to say that Homosexuality is just a disease caused by bad parenting, a bad choice, something that can be 'overcome through tsuva' and being sufficiently frum?
Let me ask you to do a thought experiment.
When I was 13 or so, girls went from icky to fascinating. We can go on and on about about nature and nurture, but seriously, did anyone here actually choose to be straight? I certainly did not. One day all of that mysterious stuff in the media about chasing women suddenly made sense.
Now imagine for a minute that Juadaism took the opposite stance that it does. Suppose that Homsexuality was the ideal and you, as a straight man were met with condescending stories about how you can overcome your desire to be with women. That liking women is a choice (it wasn',t for me) a bad choice (I',m happy with my orientation thank you) and something I should do tsuva for (OK Hashem if it is so terrible to like women, why did you hardwire me to want to sleep with them?). While you are imagining this, imagine that your fellow Jews at best looked at you as an object of pity with a disease and at worts, were repulsed at the thought of what you would do with a woman.
Do you people really, honestly think that it works for all people like it did for this writer? I know it is easier, because this way you can still blame gay people for being gay and you don',t have to wrestle with inconvienient notions of accepting people for who they are.

(183)
Anonymous,
October 7, 2008 2:28 AM

What is true holiness?

This was an honest portrayal of this man's struggle. I don't necessarily think that this will work for all gay men, but one thing is *absolute*, and that is G-d and His Torah are our lifeline and guidebook in this world. And there is no question what the Torah standpoint is on the act of homosexuality.
The justification often said is why would G-d create one with desires that he/she can't act upon? Why would He want someone to be lonely? Why should someone not be satisfied sexually when this is such an integral and important aspect to the Torah?
These questions are much larger than the issue of homosexuality. How about if someone is in a wonderful marriage and, G-d forbid, their spouse is in a terrible accident and enters into a coma? or is paralyzed? or if someone's spouse is sickly ill for many, many years? or their spouse dies? or if someone is an older, lonely, and single, and cannot find their spouse? They could be feeling extremely lonely, they could be desperately missing their loved one, they could also be deprived sexually. They may ask the same questions. They may wonder why they were put in such a situation. The bottom line is the belief that we are in this world for a purpose and G-d has tailor-made our lives for each and every one of us. Life can sometimes be desperately hard, to the point where you feel you can't cope, except that you know this is from G-d, and after 120 years you'll discover why you were meant to have these challenges. True G-dliness is coming closer to G-d by reacting to our struggles in the way He asks of us, through the guidelines of the Torah.
Someone I know was at a funeral for an older Russian man. He and his wife were childless. At the funeral the wife asked to speak. She related how they lived in a small town in communist Russia for the first 20 years of their marriage. During that entire time, there was no mikvah anywhere in her town, or within traveling distance. They desperately tried to escape, but they were not permitted to leave. She cried brokenly as she related, "For 20 years we lived together and for 20 years we lived apart". Meaning, they did not have sexual relations for the entire time, because the Torah forbids sexual relations without first immersing in the mikvah. When they finally moved to Israel, she was too old to have children. Imagine the pain, the isolation. Is this something we can comprehend? And yet, she emphatically stated, she had no regrets. She was proud to have overcome such a challenge. One may look and think they were crazy. But this was what G-d asked of them. By bending and shaping the Torah to fit what suits you, you are sadly missing the point of the short time we were put in this world. This couple's eternity will be something most of us can never imagine.
That, is true G-dliness.

(182)
Anonymous,
October 7, 2008 1:19 AM

Many Thanks

First, I want to issue many thanks to "David" for this inspirational article. As a gay Jewish young adult, this struggle is very close to me, and I found what you said to be both helpful and positive. In fact, I already see parts of it myself, as I become more religious, I appreciate my male friendships more and more.
Second, I also want to respond to the many disturbing responses attacking "David" for his honesty. He made no indication that he was writing to represent the whole of the gay population, Jewish or not, but rather shared with us what some of his research was from more qualified academics. Statistics shouldn't be interpreted as end-all facts.
More importantly, however, "David" made no effort to direct others down the path about which he writes. He offered up his story for reflection for others who struggle with similar issues. There's no need to act, no need to run with this article. You can simple read and reflect. Someone made the comment about synagogues accepting gay and lesbian couples, and how the Orthodox community might not adapt to this. The point of the article was to demonstrate how "David" found his place within the Orthodox community. You can tell his writing is structured as from someone who has studied the more traditional Jewish heritage, and I feel it accurately reflects the ideas shared by (my awareness of) the Orthodox community.
Truly, I enjoyed reading this article. As I move up the ladder through religiosity, I watch myself interacting less and less with the gay community and more and more with the Jewish community. I feel myself establishing strong male friendships in the contexts of Shabbat observance and Kosher meal clubs, as well as budding interest in female friends, especially those who are Shomer N'geiah, our friendships are based more on mind and soul than on physical attractions.
Thank you, David.

(181)
shakinah,
October 6, 2008 10:55 PM

More readers will come to Aish for supporting Torah truth

David,
May god bless you for facing this "natural bent" and having the guts to question it, challenge it and accept God's great plan for your life. I found your article non-judgmental and truthful. You stated your position some won't hear you because the truth convicts and frightens them, it takes a lot of guts to accept truth-God's word. They will counter argue and talk about how they had "healthy" families...so? the Yatzer Harah knows no "family", it will beguile you to be self-fulfilling. Then they will bring out the "big guns", the organizations like the APA-all these guys did was stop "judging" gays, they're not endorsing it or justifying it. They're neutral basically, they know its a moral issue and out of their "terrain" for rabbis and pastors to debate. You're doing fantastic, truth hurts.

(180)
YS,
October 6, 2008 9:40 PM

Dont start with David and Jonathan

David and Jonathan were deeply personal friends-like blood brothers. To say there was anything more, is utterly self-serving and ignorant.

(179)
Sabina,
October 6, 2008 9:39 PM

Agree to disagree

No, we all do not have to be-lieve in the same.
This is why I just want to write to support the views of you visitors except for what Elana shares.
We all need to defend our right to think differently.

(178)
Annie,
October 6, 2008 9:01 PM

David is only one person

David cannot speak for all gays any more than I can speak for all plus-size ladies. I have several gay friends & all their stories are different. The idea that all gays are clones is absurd. I wonder if David ever was really gay or if he is, in fact, bisexual.
I also believe that the day is coming when gay couples will be universally accepted and allowed to marry. I would gladly stand up with any of my gay friends at their weddings & wish them all the happiness that I would wish anyone else.

(177)
s,
October 6, 2008 8:51 PM

Be Open Minded!!!

It is much easier to work on what everyone else has to do- accepting etc. - than on oneself. Nowadays, so many things are accepted and "validated" that people don't even realize that they have the ability to conquer thier yetzer hara. A pedophile is attracted to young boys - no one will "accept" or "validate" him (not yet anyway!) Is it going to be hard for him to conquer his desires? Yes- but society accepts him to do it. If everyone would just open thier minds a little- (which is hard, since for so long we have been indoctrinated-even brainwashed- that ACCEPTANCE and TOLERANCE is the cure to society's ills)we would realize that the 3,000 year old divine Torah is a better moral compass than today's society.

(176)
Naomi,
October 6, 2008 8:37 PM

I'm feeling a bit torn here

David, it is so brave to write about so personal a struggle here, and even more impressive that aish.com has published it. Aish, please keep this up. However, while I am sure your story is deeply true for you, the origins of your homosexuality is not the norm for most gay men. I wish your article wasn't so assertive in the "I know how you became gay" tone. Yes, it may be how you became gay, but it certainly does not resonate with every gay man's experience -- and not that it should be. It's just that the article sort of turned into a finger-pointing lecture. I woudl say most gay men could not "convert," as it were as you have been able to. I wish you the best of all of life's greatest brachot.

(175)
Josh,
October 6, 2008 7:02 PM

Shame on you AISH

As a straight, orthodox male who has a yeshiva background, I find myself being very disappointed with this article. While I find David's PERSONAL journey to be interesting, the notion that all gay men and women are gay because of psychosocial problems they experienced in early childhood is ridiculous. It's also highly discriminatory and somewhat bigoted. The whole concept that all gay people are inherently flawed is a racist and dangerous idea that we should not be teaching our children and people looking to return to the faith.. Jews like our forefather Abraham are outsiders by nature and the whole Jewish community would be better off if we were more open minded. I suspect if
David has the courage to speak up in ten years, we will find a man who is still gay, who struggles continues to struggle with a community who doesn't understand him.

(174)
Jacque,
October 6, 2008 6:09 PM

Torah inerrant, we, however, are not.

Aish should not bend to the winds of society's values--regardless of comments to the contrary. Torah is inerrant and is to be the standard to be followed--not vice versa.

(173)
chris,
October 6, 2008 5:42 PM

i am gay and

very content with my life,god wants us to be good to others. I am loving and care about the world and i am a good person to all,the bible was writtrn a long time ago things change

(172)
Anonymous,
October 6, 2008 5:02 PM

i think what he wrote was fair but there are still a lot of cases where people are naturally gay not because they werent loved and played with when they were kids but because they grew up and realised they just werent attracted by women!
what about those ? what are they supposed to do ? it is a natural feeling to them and there is no way back to normal when that is normal. the thought of a women might disgust them, how are they supposed to live with one their whole life if its not who they are.
why did GD have to make it so difficult for some people... i dont think that those cards are any good because whatever you choose in the end is still going to harm you one way or another...

(171)
Anonymous,
October 6, 2008 4:37 PM

Good Bye Aish

If this viewpoint is what Aish deems worthy of supporting, so be it. I'm unsubscribing and heading to more Jewish-focused, less biased sources of inspiration.
My brother, who is gay, is no less part of our Jewish family--with or without his partner, and regardless of how "masculine" he is.

(170)
Anonymous,
October 6, 2008 4:32 PM

I'm praying for you, David,and especially for all who commented. Esp the anonymous man. Sir, Hashem will not only ease your pain, He will free you from this if you truly desire that. You can still have a family. There is healing in Hashem. Cling to him. David, i praise Hashem for your story. What a blessing. Thankyou for having the chutzpah to share it! I am a woman, who has had urges to pursue that lifestyle as well. I too come from a dysfunctional family background, though, for women, it is a bit different. Blessing to you all. And may we all teshuva this week of Yom Kippur.

(169)
Mark,
October 6, 2008 3:54 PM

Cheese Burgers

Is not living as an orthodox Jew and gay like an orthodox Jew eating a cheese burger.

(168)
Moshe,
October 6, 2008 3:51 PM

Unwanted SSA

My thanks goes to David for being able to explain what it is like to suffer the pain that any person suffers when he has an unwanted SSA ( Same Sex Attraction) or what most people know as homosexuality or "gay".
My thanks goes to Aish Com. For having the courage to print his story a story which many of us struggle with including myself.
I want to add that its ones Free Choice if he wants to deal with his or her struggle, if a person is happy to live the "gay" life then no one is holding a gun to his head to change.
But for those who are not happy to live such a lifestyle then he should know he is not alone and there is another direction to go.
I belong to JONAH for the last six years and B"H we are growing everyday with people who want to live a normal lifestyle, there is no reason to hide, please come and join our family.
Moshe, Married, 2 children

(167)
Russ Klein,
October 6, 2008 3:26 PM

What are we now....Christians?

All that's missing from this story is the "the love of Jesus turned me straight" part. One of the things that I've always been proud of as a Jew, is how we accept and try to understand reality. Homosexuality is and always has been a natural part of life. I can't believe that G-d would want me and many others like me, to live an empty life filled with lies. Why?
It's the lies that are so harmful that I view as immoral.

(166)
Natan Chaim,
October 6, 2008 2:43 PM

Let's alienate Jews!

It is a posting like this prominent on the Aish homepage this that turns off young gay Jews to being Jewish at all. We need to get all Jews to take an active part in their Judaism not turn away some Jews. We need to be a Sukkah Shlomecha for all Jewish souls.
Is it better to do as many of the 613 mitvot as possible, rather than none at all?

(165)
Anonymous,
October 6, 2008 1:58 PM

sandy@comcast.net

The intolerance of the gay community is startling. The bashing, the venom, the absolute intolerance of another's opinion or journey.
Wow.
This further cements my feeling that all is not as they say in the gay world. Something's very, very fishy.
Some of these comments to an article about one's personal journey have been absolutely incredible, and deeply revealing.

(164)
Ari,
October 6, 2008 1:57 PM

You didn't choose your parents or your genes

The biggest point of contention between the two sides of this discussion seems to be whether same gender attraction is "nature" or "nurture". What is implicit in this arguement is that if it is indeed "in the genes", one has no choice in the matter and cannot do anything about it. Ironically, you did not choose your parents or your genes, both were G-d's choice. Having free choice does not mean that you define every factor affecting your life. We are all born with a set of predefined realities which we have to work with, including our parents and our genes. The fact that a heterosexual male is attracted to other men's wives does not make it appropriate for him to seek relationships with them, even though he is genetically predisposed to this urge. The first thing that all humans need to know is that having these urges does not make us evil, but rather sets the stage for the ultimate expression of the power of our humanness, the ability to make choices.

(163)
Anonymous,
October 6, 2008 11:47 AM

Well done!

Well done to Aish Hatorah for enabling topics such as this to be raised. We all have a journey to our 'selves' - a real challenge of our generation. We are all 'broken' in some way. The results manifest in many and varying challenges and tikkunim. For David, the challenge was through his sexuality -a challenge known, but less talked about in the Jewish community. If this article can promote understanding, show an alternative path to those within the gay community, and provide healing, I'd say that can only be positive. Thank you David for sharing...

(162)
Flabbergasted,
October 6, 2008 11:28 AM

Announcing: Orthodox Shul of Chazzer-Fressers

We are fully observant Jews who are physically, psychologically, and spiritually attracted to pig's meat - and proud of it! We do not believe in pretending that we like kosher meat. It's unfair to the animals slaughtered in vain for us. We believe that denying our G-d-given nature is cruel, narrow-minded, and simply heretic. Services will be held starting Yom Kippur, the day for repentence from judging chazzer-fressers unfairly. All are welcome, except those holier-than-though bigots who think only their interpretation of torah is valid.

(161)
steva beth parkman,
October 6, 2008 10:16 AM

saddened

I am saddened to read this display of bigotry. I am NOT homosexual. I am married to a wonderful man and have 3 children. I am a Jew and proud to be so, but reading this article about Gay individuals having a choice on becoming a "normal" (?) human is very disturbing. G-d recognizes us as in the good we do for others, NOT whether we are straight or homosexual. G-d is NOT bigoted. How dare we lower our love for him to even imagine him being unfair in his opinions. Have we as Jews not had enough discrimination in our history? We of all people have suffered through the narrow-minded, evil of others.
Think, Feel, Love with G-d has blessed us with

(160)
Elana M.,
October 6, 2008 9:46 AM

Yasher Koach

I know that I get into trouble when I feel I can re-write morality according to my own beliefs, rather than let G-d define morality. The Torah is our guidebook. I don't feel I get to pick and choose the parts of it that are comfortable and leave out the parts I don't like. For example, if G-d calls homosexuality an abomination, why do I take offense to that, any more than I might not like the idea that shrimp are treife? When man writes the code of morality vs. immorality, we open ourselves up to "holocausts" during which men can decide that Jews are less than human beings. Only G-d can be the true judge of what is right and what is wrong. G-d acknowledges that homosexuality exists and that it is something we all might struggle with. Otherwise, He would not have addressed it in the Torah in the first place. Therefore, G-d is saying that if we find ourselves with the inclination towards homosexuality, we should know that we are "off the mark" and to return to the right path of heterosexuality, family and purity. Taking offense to that statement, yet not taking offense to any other mitzvah in the Torah doesn't make sense to me. I have my struggles with other inclinations, i.e. addictions. I know that when I am not in balance, and am giving in to my yetzer harah, the solution is to run towards G-dliness, as prescribed by G-d Himself. Through my acceptance of the Torah in its entirety, I have been able to overcome years of addiction, and become balanced and sane, just like David. It takes a lot of courage to face ourselves honestly and not rationalize ourselves into immoral behavior.

(159)
TFD-NYC,
October 6, 2008 9:41 AM

More than one perspective

I appreciate your struggle. But your history does not reflect every single gay person's. It is unfair and, frankly, rude, to say that your experiences should inform other people's. It sounds like you sojourned in the main-stream-gay (MSG) climates which you have accurately portrayed. But you did not mention the wide array of homosexuals who live happily in committed, monogamous relationships for whom the MSG culture is an embarrassment. And that you have discunted the many number of gays who come from relatively healthy families. Unfortunately your article does not present a strong enough critical analysis of various realities outside of your own experience to be taken seriously. It sounds to me that you and the JONAH cohorts have more confessing to do that has to with being promiscuous and vapid more than being gay. It is a shame that you cannot make that vital distinction and are now killing part of your most sacred self. You will probably marry and have children and end up hurting more lives than you can foresee right now. When we are not our true identities we destroy ourselves and those who love our illusions- illusions which, by natural due process, must at some point crumble. The truth will out, goes the old saying. Torah was meant for us to LIVE by. Not die. Good luck to you brother. L'shanah tovah- may you ponder deeply the meaning of your inner struggle and find true peace this Yom Kippur.

(158)
janet,
October 6, 2008 9:22 AM

I can't believe the amount of venom and closedmindedness in the comments

My goodness, talk about shouting a person down! Let david and aish.com have the freedom to express their veiwpoint, one so rarely heard in today's politically correct climate. Why is david's journey -- one so honest and non-judgmental -- so threatening to so many? Why is Aish.com being condemned by having the courage to present a well balanced, intelligent view that wrestles with profound issues of change, sexuality, and the Torah's prohibition against homosexual acts? If one believes that the Torah is from God, which observant Jews believe as a fundamental tenet of Judaism, you cannot simply rewrite the Torah's prohibitions, even if they go against the grain of what is popular today. Open your mind and struggle to understand the Torah's position, instead of kneejerk reactions full of hatred and intolerance. We need to love all jews, and just as we need to love Jews who are engaging in homosexual acts, we need to love Jews who believe you can change your sexual orientation.

(157)
Anonymous,
October 6, 2008 9:21 AM

As a gay man who is in his early fifties and becoming more observant, it has become for me a very difficult issue and created a dilemma in my life. I crave to become part of an orthodox jewish community in my town, but I am so scared on how people would react if they would know and label me in a negative way. All my life I wanted to have a family and children, and yet knowing what the Torah says, I cannot have a gay realtionship either-this is really painful, and only ask Hashem to ease this pain a little.

(156)
Danielle,
October 6, 2008 9:05 AM

My Experience

I am a lesbian and in a committed relationship for nearly 15 years. Together we are raising three beautiful children - each attending Jewish Day School. We are totally out and have been blessed with total acceptance - from our children's school to our Synagogue. Our kids are the focal point of our life and they don't see our family as any different from any other family. We have learned over the years that acceptance comes from within as well as from outside of you. You are who you are - this is how G-d made you and no spinning will change the fact. Once you accept it, the loving people around you will accept you too. I do believe having children made all the difference - it made people look at us as parents. The number of Jews in this world are shrinking - so let's embrace all Jews including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters who want to form families and bring beautiful Jewish children into this world.

(155)
Anonymous,
October 6, 2008 8:24 AM

Kol ha kavod!

I am deeply moved by your strength to hold tight to the truth, despite the seemingly powerful forces against it. It is obvious that, because of your courage to turn your life around, Hashem gave you the internal strength to deal with this tremendous test and to make your way back to your essence. May He continue to bless you and your loved ones with a long life of complete health and with all the blessings of Torah. Thank you for sharing your story and showing us that with a genuine desire for teshuvah, real change is possible (with G-d''s great help), no matter what one''s personal struggle.

(154)
Anonymous,
October 6, 2008 7:37 AM

Agree with (145) Michael 100%...this is DRIBBLE!

As I was reading this most disappointing article, the very same thoughts came into my mind as stated by (145) Michael. Is this the best that AISH can do? You are rejecting reality in favour of the religious point of view, which I assume is your charter to do, no matter what. How sad. But, don't print such "Dribble" as the norm, as the way that every Jewish gay man or woman should be striving for (and when they can't reach this so-called "norm" they will feel they have been a failure.) This article shows the path that ONE man took... ONE man who frankly didn't convince me that he was gay to start with. You've set him up as a role model for any gay Jew to follow to get rid of this "Horrible curse." Well, I have news for you obviously ill-informed and ill-read on the subject Jews, I am Jewish, Gay, Happy and well adjusted and this will shock you: There are many, many of us out there and we're not impressed with moronic articles such as this one. What's next, an article on how G-D rejects left-handed people and that they should do all in their power to change? Is AISH getting together a fund to pay for all the psychiatric help that articles like this can lead to, if one were ignorant enough to follow the author's lead? Thank you Michael for saying everything that I was thinking as I read that "bunch of Dribble." Now, let's see if AISH is willing to print this letter! I doubt it.

(153)
Elisheva,
October 6, 2008 6:56 AM

hmmmmmm

I strongly agree with Johnathan, Michael and Anonymous, (above comments). I also felt that this article itself was laden with the judgements that the author was trying to escape. It is akin to an ex-smoker being hypervigilant in their negative attitudes toward smokers. Let's learn to love people for who they are and realize that their neshama is on a journey.....including our own.

(152)
Dave,
October 6, 2008 6:55 AM

Always a choice

Anyone who says people are born that way are not following any scientific study and I personally know of people that were fully straight (not just in denial) that became gay. Usually because of bad break ups women and having lots of gay friends.

(151)
Dave,
October 6, 2008 6:38 AM

similar experience

My experience has been very similar but I always felt attracted to males even at 3 years old. As I grew I wanted to like women but did not. I came to except my feelings checked out the gay world and found it empty.... Something vital missing from the equation. Most people had a self esteem issue and child wounding. Even solid long term relationships were left 'open' like their partner could not give them everything. People did not like my questions, (that was a big alarm blinker) and I also went seeking the truth in other areas. As is today I am slowly working on myself, I am 30, most of my attraction for men are gone unless I isolate and stop warm connections with friends. I still have large mother issues to unravel and am waiting to be attracted to my wife to be....

(150)
Eric,
October 6, 2008 6:12 AM

Response to Other Comments

I am a frequent reader of Aish.com, and this is the first time that I am actually writing a comment, but I felt compelled to do so after reading the many comments that I have seen posted. First, I want to commend "David" for sharing his story, and his personal viewpoints - that is extremely courageous (and it is understandable why he did not reveal his real name). Second, I applaud Aish.com for addressing such a difficult subject in what seems to me a very tasteful manner. However, I think that it is simply astounding to see how many of the people who submitted comments can be so unaccepting, and so venomous, when they see something that they disagree with! There is an irony in the fact that people who claim to be so "open-minded" and "progressive" react this way when they don't like what they read, and these people should be ashamed of their posts. I understand that this is a sensitive subject. However, is it so difficult to realize that there are different viewpoints regarding certain issues, and that this is "David's" take on his experiences? Contrary to the many readers who seem to be experts in this area, and "know" that homosexuality is something innate (from where they derive this, I am unsure), my understanding, and that of the general scientific world, is that there have been no proofs that homosexuality is something that people are born with: there has neither been a genetic proof, nor any proof relating to other biological aspects of a human being relating to homosexuality, and at the end of the day, there is still disagreement about why people have homosexual relations. Unfortunately, for someone who refuses to accept this fact, they hurl accusations at "David" and criticize Aish.com for printing his story. Would these same people cancel their subscription to a newspaper because they disagree with one article printed? Do they drop friendships at the first sign of a disagreement? Say that you disagree with "David," and submit your own article regarding your views - but to attack both Aish.com and "David"? Those of you who did so might want to re-think your actions and underlying motivations for those actions! Thank you for motivating us to think about difficult issues Aish.com. Hopefully, in the future, we can all discuss them in a mature, responsible fashion!

(149)
Jonathan,
October 6, 2008 3:53 AM

My comments to michael are that i in many ways agree with you. I personally am not gay. Indeed, I am an orthodox rabbi in cape Town South Africa married with children.
I am in contact with a number of gay men, and occasionally women, in this capacity and have discovered in many of them the pain and anguish that you express in words between the lines of your comments.
However, at the same time i believe that the whole matter needs to be seen within the context of torah and halacha.
It is in no way easy to control one's sexual desires and motivations, and that is not what i wish to address is the following:
."The BIG solution would be that if a boy or girls family would be open about this fact of life, and supportive, then the person struggling with their feelings could find support in their home and in their community." I THINK THAT YOU ARE 100% CORRECT WE HAVE BECOME PUNITIVE AND JUDGEMENTAL. ACCEPTANCE OF PEOPLE AS PEOPLE AS OPPOSSED TO pEOPLE WHO BEHAVE IN A PARTICULAR MANNER IS A FLAW WHICH WE AS A NATION NEED TO ADDRESS. HOWEVER AT THE SAME TIME, WHEN A PERSON LABELS THEMSELVES AS GAY, THEY SET THEMSELVES UP FOR JUDGEMENT FROM THOSE WHO ARE HOMOPHOBIC. HOW MANY PEOPLE LABLE THEMSELVES AS "NON SHABBAT OBSERVERS" & "TREIF EATERS" ETC. ALTHOUGH SOMEWHAT INFANTILE YOU MAY SAY IN COMPARISON, I IN MANY WAYS BELIEVE THAT THE RECOGNITION THAT THE JEWISH, RELIGIOUSLY INCLINED GAY COMMUNITY IS TRYING TO GET AS PEOPLE IS SABOTAGED BY THEIR SELF LABLING AS GAY. WHY DO WE NEED GAY AND LESBIAN SHULS (YOU ARE 100% CORRECT!), THE OBLIGATION OF THE RABBI'S AND SPIRITUAL LEADERS IS TO TEACH THEIR CONGREGATIONS TOLERANCE FOR PEOPLE WHO DO NOT ADHERE TO THE ENTIRE GAMUT OF HALACHIC PROCESS - WHATEVER IT MAY BE. ITS GOD'S JOB TO JUDGE AND OUR JOB TO TEACH AND NURTURE. NOBODY OPENS A SHUL AND LABELS IT THE "SHUL OF THE THIEVES" or THE SHUL OF THE FRAUDSTERS". WHERE DO YOU HAVE A COMMUNITY THAT IS LABLED BY THE VERY TRANGRESSION THAT THEY PERFORM.
THE PROBLEM HOWEVER IS EXACTLY THIS - AS YOU ARE AWARE FROM A HALACHIK POINT OF VIEW, HOMOSEXUAL SEXUAL ACTIVITY IS FORBIDDEN, AND LIKE THEFT, BREAKING OF SHABBAT, EATING NON-KOSHER, SPEAKING LASHON HARA, DISRESPECTING PARENTS ETC CANNOT BE TOLERATED or ACCEPTED.
THE PEOPLE ENGAGING IN THESE PRACTISES (SEXUAL, FRAUD ETC)HOWEVER ARE PEOPLE AND MUST BE ACCEPTED AS SUCH DESPITE THEIR TRANSGRESSION OF HALACHA. YES THERE ARE LAWS PERTAINING TO HOW WE DEAL WITH THEM FROM A RITUAL AND HALACHIC POINT OF VIEW BUT SO MUCH OF THAT IS NOW ACADEMIC IN THE SOCIETY IN WHICH WE LIVE)
THE ARTICLE GOES A LONG WAY TO ASSIST CERTAIN PEOPLE UPON A PATHWAY OF SELF RECOGNITION. FOR OTHERS WHO HAVE NOT COME ALONG THAT PATHWAY TO GET TO WHERE THEY ARE, IN THEIR RECOGNITION OF THEIR SEXUAL PREFERENCE WILL PERHAPS REMAIN FOREVER FRUSTRATED IN THIS SO FUNDAMENTAL PART OF LIFE. HOWEVER TO CONDONE AND ACCEPT THE PRACTICE, WITHIN THE AMBIT OF HALACHA IS DIFFICULT.
PERHAPS IN MANY WAYS THIS IS INDICATIVE OF OUR SOCIETY'S OBSESSION WITH SEXUALITY AND SEX ITSELF. YES, ITS A PRIMORDIAL NEED AND DRIVE, BUT ITS CERTAINLY NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL.
PERHAPS A REFOCUSS ON GIVING, LEARNING, CHESSED COULD ASSIST IN HELPING THESE DEAR SOULS WHO ARE TRULY CRYING OUT TO CONNECT TO SOMETHING AUTHENTIC.
THROUGH GIVING TO OTHERS WE CONNECT, WE SHOW PEOPLE WHO WE ARE AS PEOPLE AND YES, PERHAPS YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS DIFFERENT TO MINE, BUT WHEN YOU'RE IN CAPE TOWN, LOOK ME UP, COME FOR FRIDAY NIGHT DINNER AND SHABBOS LUNCH, ENGAGE TO ENGAGE. I PROMISE NO PRESSURE TO GET MARRIED or ANYTHING ELSE, JUST A DESIRE TO CONNECT WITH ANOTHER SENSITIVE JEW.

(148)
Anonymous,
October 6, 2008 1:08 AM

|Homosexuality is a more complicated issue.

I am glad to read that this man reached a fulfilled life as a married,heterosexual man. In his case that could be reached because he wasn't truly a "homosexual", he just craved to feel the manhood his father hadn't been able to give him. But there are also born homosexuals - and born lesbian women. People who already know from age two or three on, that they are attracted to the same gender. What about them? It is very cruel to them to tell them that their sexual orientation is the yetzer hara, beause that is really saying that they themselves are evil. I am working as a social worker in Israel, and I have met several orthodox men, who are desperately unhappy because of leading a 'false' life (being married while they still feel they are gay, or leading a double life, etc). My own brother is gay and he lives in a long-term, committed relationship in a European country. Sure, a lot of gay men lead lives of short-time meetings and 'bath-houses', and I am not fond of the vulgar side of the gay (male) culture. Just like I am not fond of the vulgar side of the heterosexual culture (prostitution, exploitation of women, etc.) But there are also a lot of gay men in long-term, committed relationships. I once found a website where a rabbi told about a vision he had, that the 'wiring' of some homosexual men and women is simply different, as if the Etz Haim in their spiritual bodies runs differently. This is a discussion that should be had on a deep level, and not on the level of morality only. The Torah calls 'lying with another man like you lie with a woman' an aberration, but that clearly is about anal sex (sorry to call the thing by its name.) And what about women? My impression is that lesbian women in Israel are better able to cope with their homosexuality, have more stable relationships and often families (with another woman) and children.
Yom |Kippur is almost here - let's not judge each other so easily.

(147)
Michael,
October 6, 2008 12:46 AM

AISH is doing a Disservice with this one sided article. I'm shocked and it's not the only Path.

What a bunch of Dribble. This mans journey is his own, but how dare he make mass assumptions on the reason most men are homosexual. I personally was raised in a loving home, had a wonderful father and mother, and out of 6 children, I somehow had feelings about men the way other men have feelings about women. Dating women didn't help. Talking about it didn't change things. Instead of feeling less than, wrong, and different my whole life, I finally came to accept my differences as did my own family. Because they loved me for as one of their own. I never joined the "gay scene" which this author says he was a part of. I only wanted to date men and settle down into a committed relationship with a man. Am I the norm? Well, there are many many many men like me. Unfortunately the isolation which a man or woman feels growing up leads them to journey and explore in the only settings available to them. So if going to a club or a gay town is what is available, at least there a person struggling with their feelings can finally feel they are not alone.
The BIG solution would be that if a boy or girls family would be open about this fact of life, and supportive, then the person struggling with their feelings could find support in their home and in their community.
And now I'm very disappointed in AISH. Because they published this article with the apparent assumption that this is the path for a Jewish gay women or man. This is definitely NOT the solution for most gay men and women. What the ideal solution would be is a community ACCEPTING their members who are different, families understanding and not kicking out their members who are different, and synagogues welcoming their own. Instead of their being a Gay and Lesbian synagogue, who wonderful it would be someday if all Jewish boys and girls, men and women, and alternative families were welcomed into all synagogues. I don't know that the Orthodox would go this route, but the Reform and Conservative are certainly more progressive.
The reason for these young men and women who feel depressed and suicidal and outcast is because they are put on that they are different and not accepted.
That change has been coming around slowly. An article like this shows only one mans view, and that is a view that is very very much in the minority.
And instead of the phenomenon of married men with families and children who are out on the prowl looking for a "hookup" to satisfy their urges, rather why not help these members of the community become strong and comfortable in themselves and not make them feel that they must get married or force them into a life that is not natural to them. It would make a much healthier world.

(146)
marc,
October 6, 2008 12:25 AM

Wonderful article- thank you for sharing this with us. i don't know what the problem some of the readers had with the article!

(145)
Deena,
October 6, 2008 12:17 AM

Amazing story

Thanks for sharing your story. It is absolutely fascinating. There is so much to learn here, about homosexuality but also about tshuva and life in general.

(144)
shira macklin,
October 5, 2008 11:24 PM

gay bashing aish style

i've managed to overlook some of the anti woman comments that appear from time to time in aish articles because i am interested in my culture. this homophobic article is really over-the-top. as we all know, suicide, drug abuse etc. are the tragic result of abuse such as was displayed in this horrible piece. shame on you!

(143)
Paul Pillai,
October 5, 2008 11:22 PM

Good article

Dear David,
Thank you for a wonderful and insightful sharing. I’m sure it must have been a hard road to journey to come to such self searching and realization. Congratulations to you and your family and congratulations to all the individuals who have in one way or another aided you in your journey of self discovery. By saying self discovery I don’t just mean the issue of homosexuality but also the underlying issues that had/is contributing to homosexuality.
I believe it takes more courage to admit a fault than to make excuses in condoning a fault. Homosexuality is wrong but homosexuals MUST be respected and helped. It sounds bigoted to many but it is the truth and is as plain as that. The Torah is right. Even nature and creation tells us that. Humans are mammals and which mammals other than humans show homosexual tendencies?
Thanks to Aish.com for this article.

(142)
Clark,
October 5, 2008 11:16 PM

Narrow minded way of thinking?

Many people, like Amy, think that Judaism is merely a philosophy. If there were no G-d and if Judaism failed to accurately convey the nature and will of G-d, then this would be true. If there is no G-d then we can dispense with guilt, shame, morality and pick whatever philosophy (however inconsistent) that suits our ever changing immediate appetites and whims.
Wrestling with incovenient truths is what reality is all about - and I applaud David for his candor, and courage to share his struggles with us all. ... Well written and very helpful.

(141)
Dillard,
October 5, 2008 11:05 PM

Oh my!

A man is honest. What does he get? Rotten tomatoes thrown at him. In our society, yes means no, no means yes. I applaud you David for coming out of the pit, and sharing with us your experiences. Truth comes to those whom do not deserve it, also for those who desire it. The homosexual community has abused men that are still little boys looking for that kind word, physical touch from their "dad". Another lot were abused sexually and their emotions are confused because of this. Good luck to all coming out of the darkness into the marvelous light!

(140)
alise,
October 5, 2008 10:07 PM

disagree

As someone who is deeply ingrained in an orthodox world in business and community, my "gaydar" has gone off many times. Most gay men are born that way. I've known at least two large frum from birth families with an obviously effeminate man in the family that was nurtured and raised by a great father and mother that did nothing to cause this. They are single older men who just never married or in one case, they are married. I pity women who will be or are married to "formerly gay" men. Talk about depressing...

(139)
Jarrow L. Rogovin,
October 5, 2008 10:00 PM

Test Brain Waves...so EEG, (bisexual?) David!

All David has really argued for is a bisexual component to his personality, one strong enough that he is able to function with a female partner. Fine, but that doesn't justify misrepresenting the nature of homosexuality. He has argued that there is no genetic component to homosexuality, that it is just the result of traumatically poor parenting. The obvious implication is that heterosexuality is no more than the outcome of "normative" parenting -- and we are supposed to believe that happy childrearing is the overwhelming norm. Just as heterosexuality is a behavior determined by genes and hormones, so is homosexuality.
If "David" -- who cannot even reveal his identity which says a lot in itself and assuming he even exists, which I doubt -- to submit to an EEG test to monitor his brain waves and shown various erotic images, I have no doubt that homosexual images would cause his brain's erotic centers to register erratic.
As for his portrayal of gay life, it sounds like a lot of straights I know as well. In fact, there is a "cheater" gene that about 40% of men have. "David" better study some genetics before he makes any uninformed assertions. Also, the demand for marriage rights by gays belies some of the characterizations of gay life drawn by "David."
As for his silly theory of mal-parenting as being the cause of homosexuality, too many families have one gay kid while the rest are straight. In too many families, homosexuality has higher statistical occurrence including in twins. Further, he has not explained lesbianism.
It is tedious dealing with this because this has been knocking around the Christian fundamentalist community for a generation. Jews should be smarter than that and accept the fact that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon and accept it. The real sins are misrepresenting psychology and genetics and homophobia.

(138)
Adam,
October 5, 2008 9:56 PM

I understand your journey has been difficult. I don't find it appropriate to argue a path that is so personal in nature, as I haven't walked in your shoes.
What I cannot reconcile, and fundamentally disagree with, is the degradation and belittlement you use to address another culture. Albeit one you may find assur.
I am a mid-20's American Jew. I am engaged in interfaith forums to build bridges of understanding between all people. I feel a sense of pride and obligation to represent our faith to others with responsibility. I am accountable with my words and actions.
It is sweeping generalizations, degradation, and belittlement of other cultures that continues to stamp Judaism as archaic, rigid, and intolerant.
Instead Judaism should be celebrated as current, relevant, guiding, and accepting of all: those who are struggling with discipline to daven more regularly, those who are struggling to find a sense of identity and community, and inclusive of all in-between.
God has given each of his creations a voice to be heard. I would encourage us all to be thoughtful and selective with our words. Personal stories of teshuva are beautiful. Perpetuating negative cultural stereotypes soils this message.

(137)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 9:52 PM

No, Amy....

No Amy, The dignity of human sexual relations is not grounded in love, commitment and volition of same sex gender. You are correct that it is grounded in love and commitment - of Torah values. if you look in the Torah, G-d explicitly states which relationships/sexual relationships are perverse, abhorant and wicked. Gay sexual relations is defined as abhorant. Volition - to do whatever one "feels like" is NOT a Torah accepted view. I am sorry that you think that Torah judaism is cruel and narrow minded thinking. G-d has a set of guidelines and engaging in gay sexual relations is not one of them.

(136)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 9:23 PM

My gosh!

My gosh! This article is unbelievably perfectly timed.
First, I am absolutley amazed at the strength of the individual who this article is formed. My gosh. In my opinion youare one of the most strong people that I have ever read about! I have often wondered about how one of the most difficult lives must be for the jew/or non jew whom is living a gay lifestyle and wants to change this lifestyle.
I am so appreciative to have read this article. I 'll tell you why.
I believe that we live in a time called chevlei moshiach- the birth pangs of moshiach. I have also heard that it is one thing to live as a homosexual and it is far worse to actually engage in a ceremony that states that two gay people are married . One is abhorant privately and also before G-d while the other is a public statement and therefore is more abhorant.
I believe that Hashem wanted this article and therefore this view to be relayed to the jewish public/ public because it is said that one aspect of a precirsur to the downfall of a nation is when gay "marriage" is accepted and allowed. If one looks recently, California has opened up and allowed gay "marriages" to take place.
I believe Hashem has given the antidote to this false notion by allowing the public to see, "Hey, this is not nature. It is stoppable." Here in lies the way to acheive this. It will be incredibly difficult, yet it is possible and that the lifestyle post gay lifestyle is full of beautiful spiritual meaning that transcends what has been perceived as good. I am so tired of hearing that we should all be tolerant of what G-d sees as abhorant. Yasher Koach to this man and Aish for what I believe to be one of your finest articles ever!

(135)
Mendy,
October 5, 2008 9:20 PM

Not a gay-bash but the truth--for me, at least

I believe David is telling the truth here, as I am a "frum from birth" Chasidic 34-year-old man in Brooklyn with a wife and 3 kids who struggles with extreme sensitivity to heterosexual stimulation, shall we say, coupled with a problem that I call "secondary homosexuality." It is in light of said that I know David to be speaking the truth, as his story is like my childhood: a TERRIFYING father figure of a father that I could not approach for approval or affection, a "mushy" mother (to this day, mind you), and a need in my teen years to be funny, especially to teachers, to gain approval. When I read this article, then, I thought, "Well, then, no wonder I'm partially gay!" Like David, I need love from men, but in a way that goes well beyond healthy. (In a nutshell, it's: "Really? You love me? Let's, um, go somewhere..." That feeling of embrace quickly leads to homoerotic attraction, and that can't possibly be normal simply because we're both male, and the laws of nature dictate that attraction is for purposes of procreation, meaning heterosexual attraction. So I don't know. But I do know that my gayness is psychological and emotional, not genetic.

(134)
YS,
October 5, 2008 9:04 PM

Another way

The act is prohibited, not necessarily the orientation. For those who have tried unsuccessfully to change their single-sex feeling state, yet are able to maintain a behavioral distance from all homosexual activity, I believe they are completely observant and welcome members of the Torah community.

(133)
SarahRachel,
October 5, 2008 8:57 PM

What Abut His Wife And Kids?

When all this psychological programming that David has had, wears out, and he comes face to face with the fact that he truly is gay, where will that leave his wife and kids?
Do you have any idea how many wives and children go through this kind of thing when gay men try to deny and hide their orientation, try to live normal lives, and in the end just crack because a gay person can no more live as a hetero person than a hetero person can live as a gay.
Thousands of women's lives and their children's too, are ruined because of things like this. They truly love their husbands and have no clue, at least at first, that their husband is gay. It rips them apart, it rips the families apart. Children end up hating and despising their gay parent for lying about it more than anything else, and causing such pain to the other parent and the children. David had better keep this in mind.
I wish David the very best, and hope for his wife and children's sake that he wasn't born gay but chances are that he was.
How many truly heterosexual people do you know who just choose to live for years as gay people? None. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen the other way around either, except in situations where hiding one's true sexuality is the goal.
A person is not going to be attracted for years and years to the same gender unless they are actually gay.
They don't choose it, any more than a heterosexual chooses to be straight.
Please, do try to remember what will happen to the wife when David cannot take living a lie anymore. Think of what the wife will go through emotionally and mentally, let alone what she is probably going through physically during the marriage with a man who has no attraction to her femaleness. And the children, don't forget what the children will go through too.

(132)
Ilene,
October 5, 2008 8:35 PM

This is ridiculous

Being a homosexual is not a choice. You don't just change to not being gay. This is as bad as conservative Christians who try to spew the same garbage. I am dissapointed in Aish for printing this. Prior to this story I have always enjoyed all the other articles I have read on this site. Not good!!

(131)
Michel D (David),
October 5, 2008 8:34 PM

Amazing, I concluded similarly.

Amazing that I similarly confronted the same truth and discovered the same route to teshuva. I have reached nearly full recovery and suddenly all the real men love me. G-d always did but is now proud of my progress in growing up, at 72. Gays chancing to brave reality will be similarly rewarded. We have not been locked in an underworld by genes but by self-serving sympathy and behavior. I found change is possible and reaps physical and spiritual rewards in abundance.

(130)
Michoel,
October 5, 2008 8:27 PM

As a gay, orthodox man, I believe many are missing the point. Between self congratulation of David's experience proving the Torah true and the progressive, humanistic approach accepting all lifestyles as equally affirming, is the truth that I and many other frum, gay persons lives with every day.
I don't believe anyone knows if it is genetic or environmental, and it may not be the same for every case. Some people do experience some variety in their sexual preferences and it is undeniable that for some their orientation changes over time. For others, they are convinced there is only one avenue for sexual satisfaction.
I was once asked by a friend with whom I shared my same sex attractions, how do I know I am gay. I asked him how he knew he was attracted to women, and what would he think if the Torah told him he could never have any outlet to fulfill that drive.
Now I am a Torah observant Jew, learn every day and I have raised a frum family. Most of my children are married and seem to be establishing healthy, mainstream families. I do not indulge in homosexual behavior, though at times I have felt that I have paid a heavy emotional price for not embracing that side of myself. My marriage has been less than satisfying for me and for my wonderful wife, as well. I don't indulge in homosexual behavior, because the Torah forbids it, but after trying many avenues for more years than I would like to remember, and making a honest attempt to the honest limit of my strength and abilities, i don't believe that my same sex attraction will ever change.
I have spoken with many many men who have tried Jonah and Narth, as well as some Christian ministries that deal with changing sexual attraction. That in itself should tell you how far a frum person could go to try to deal with this challenge. While I rejoice in David's success and I daven that David should continue to enjoy his new sense of satisfaction, almost all the men I have spoken with have been unsuccessful in changing their desires, and they have felt more damaged, depressed and downtrodden in the attempt.
My most basic point is that as frum men and women we really do have nowhere to turn. Many Rabbonim are woefully uneducated, and the damage I have seen some young men face who went to their Rabbonim has sometimes filled me with horror. Most Rabbonim, I believe, try to walk a line between compassion for the person while not sanctioning the behavior. But I believe the reality is that most Rabbanim have no understanding of what Daas Torah is on this subject, and until there are resources martialed among the Gedolim to deal with this issue (as they have done with "kids at risk"), I do not believe we will begin to have any Torah true approach for the challenge. For the present, we just muddle through as best we can.
I know the website for support groups for "formerly frum people" who left Yiddushkeit primarily because of the inability to deal with their same sex attraction within our community is much larger than the support group of people who have toughed it out and remained frum.
Although I am happy that I remained frum, I make no judgements because I know that I could have gone either way. I encourage every gay person who has made the choice to live a gay lifestyle to embrace their Mitzvos to the greatest extent they can. If that means participating in Tikun Olam in a Reform Setting, I don't see the Mitzvah of Gemilut Chessed as any less.
I can only say that I and many others just like me are sitting next to you on shabbos in shul. You would be surprised (perhaps horrified) to know that I am the one writing this. But I am the same person sharing Divrei Torah at your shabbos table in spite of my same sex attractions.
I do applaud Aish for publishing this in the hope that our Gedolim can begin to deal with the realities of the situation in which we live. They are complex and we need your help.

(129)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 8:11 PM

What an inspiration!!!!

What incredible self introspection you have gone through!!! You are truly an inspiration. We should all be spending time trying to improve ourselves, especially during this time of year. Kol Hakavod!!!!

(128)
Danny,
October 5, 2008 7:57 PM

Inner Trauma

Thank you for wording your insight. I too came to this revelation that I was trying to live out a lie.
I could not see Hashem making such a cruel mistake. Turns out He had not. I chose to side with Him. I follow Torah, trusted, waited, and am now a Rabbi.
Baruch Hashem!
Daniel

(127)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 7:57 PM

G-d bless you for sharing

David, Thank you for speaking out! I believe your experience is the experience of many gay men. I also wonder if many people try the gay lifestyle because of the confusion of male/female relationships, the failures of male/female relationships, and simply because it is "out there," something to be tried. I don't believe G-d would have created something He forbids. I'm happy for you that you have done/are doing the hard work to follow G-d's commands and are receiving the rich blessings - and creating a wonderful family heritage.

(126)
Chani,
October 5, 2008 7:53 PM

In response to Amy

You say that this way of though is narrow minded, but isn't it narrow minded to make such judgements, based on what knowledge you have? How do you know for a fact that this ISN'T G-d's world and the way He wants it comes with rules in a book? How can you be so sure that none of this is for real? There are millions of people that believe it IS the truth, not from the word of one man alone, but millions of witnesses who spent hundreds of years retelling it to their children. So if G-d says it's an abomination, then so it it, and it is narrow minded to say that these people are narrow minded. You are given free will, so be it. Do what you want. Some people want to be free to be pedophiles, some want to rape women, it gives them sexual pleasure. So be it, but of course, there are consequences, whether G-d said it, or the law of the state. There are laws nonetheless.

(125)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 7:48 PM

Thank you Aish

Leave it to Aish to be the lone voice of truth in a politically correct world gone mad with propoganda and lies.
Your willingness to face sensitive issues with compassion is a bright light to many of us.

(124)
Charles,
October 5, 2008 7:22 PM

To all those that are of the belief that being gay can be of an inherent nature, let me propose the following
scenario. Suppose (G-d forbid) there would be a rampant number of men/women unable to stay faithful to their
spouses. Alternatively, there would be a widespread number of men/women committing incest, ranging from siblings to grandparents. In both of these instances, after numerous studies, there would be evidence
supporting a genetic link to this behavior, tantamount to the evidence of the genetically linked homosexual theory.
What would your reaction be? Would you accept incest and extramarital affairs as easily as you accepted
homosexuality? Would you demand that the Orthodox communities be open and tolerant of intermarital affairs
and incest? Will you still feel they should be proud of their sexual orientation while practicing as happy,
proud Orthodox Jews, as you feel towards those that embrace their homosexuality? My personal opinion is - I would more readily accept incest
and extramarital affairs! For by all prohibited relations the Torah doesn't use the word "to'eva" - abomination
except for homosexuality. Further explanation of the word to'eva is that which is an unnatural desire
(for further explanation see Nachmanides-Deuteronomy chapter 29 verse 18. (Also, the fact that we find people today having homosexual tendencies beginning at an early age can be a result of mankind’s power to change nature through his actions, similar to what occurred in the times of the Generation of the Flood-Genesis chapter 6) The bottom line is: We all have urges and even if homosexuality is genetically linked, has it been proven scientifically that one can not control himself from acting out
on those desires? Would you conclude that a heterosexual man who has unfortunately has not found his mate should be allowed act upon his urges to have premarital relations?
Should that also be permitted to occur openly and in a widespread fashion in the Orthodox community?

(123)
Ted,
October 5, 2008 7:14 PM

What joy to read of such a victory!

Sir, you are to be congratulated for winning such a victory over the yetzer hara, and for returning to the Creator's (blest be His Name) edict to "be fruitful and multiply," for which He no doubt will bless you yet, and beyond our finite expectations. Thank you for such an example of teshuvah!

(122)
diane,
October 5, 2008 7:05 PM

majority of gay people have normal parents

...and what about homosexual men that do not come from triadic families .... the vast majority who have loving engaged fathers and healthy moms... and what about lesbian women with normal parents and family life...
Situations are not as simple as you try to make them and sadly, I think you are still running from yourself.... perhaps driven by jewish guilt or fear of "sin"

(121)
Janet,
October 5, 2008 7:05 PM

like to hear from him-please

Hi my daughter is Lesbian & can't seem
to find a like minded Jew-if you can help great,I love her heaps & still hope to be a bobah!

(120)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 6:29 PM

Bravo, David!

What an unbelievable story! You are an inspiration and may G-d continue to shower his blessings upon you!

(119)
Andrea,
October 5, 2008 6:21 PM

Disappointed in you

I pray that your readers are intelligent enough not to generalize one person's single unique journey to an entire group of people. This article is loaded with over-rationalization and misinformation. How could you print such drivel? Please cancel my subscription.

(118)
Nathan,
October 5, 2008 6:21 PM

There is nothing wrong with being gay

I am deeply offended by the perspective that I, as a homosexual, must "return", as you call it, to a state I was never in. If you had done real research you would have found that any real respectable scientific organization has stated that homosexuality is not a choice, it is not unnatural, and it can not be changed. Here's some examples: The American Psychiatric Association, The American Physiological Association, The American Psychoanalytic Association, The American Academy of Pediatrics, The National Association of Social Workers, and The American Counseling Association. And the reason that the suicide rate is so much higher in the GLBT community is because of the bigotry that we face in society every day, from all around us. We are constantly assaulted by people who say that we are wrong, disgusting, in need of change, unnatural, etc. This is not what God meant when He said, "Justice, justice shall you pursue." This is not the love God demands of us. God does not expect me, or any other homosexual, to be anything other than who we are. There is no commandment that says "thou shalt not be gay", there is, however, a command that says "thou shalt not bear false witness", and no one should have to bear false witness to who they are by being forced to show a false image of who they are. God made us this way, and we can not change that. In God's Torah there is no command against the loving relationships prominent amongst homosexuals today, but against one specific sexual act between two men that was practiced in Canaanite religion. The Rabbi's of the Talmud knew this, and it was they who lade down the other rules prohibiting same sex intimacy, but the Rabbi's had no hesitation in dropping their ordinances that they found to hard for the people to bear, and that is how we should respond to the archaic approach the Rabbis took towards homosexuality. They did not understand homosexuality as we understand it today, they had no context of it. All they saw was the pedophilia of Greek culture, and the tantric sex rites of Canaan. If you want the real essence of Tikkun Olam it is not in suppressing love, but in embracing it.

(117)
steve,
October 5, 2008 6:16 PM

this is so unbelieveable one is born with a homosexual drive or heterosexual drive

why can't you accept that this is the way you are programed and the attraction that you have is for the same sex or the oppposite sex
stop injecting a false value and cause

(116)
Jose Schwartz,
October 5, 2008 6:07 PM

G-d Bless you for writting this article

Thank you. We see our only son struggle trying to make a life in the "gay" community thinking the perfect person will come along. We know he is not having any success at happiness and it breaks our hearts.
It is our prayer that your honest and open article appear on the front page of every paper in the nation. Nobody should have to suffer the pain of loneliness which is so prevalent in the "lifestyle".
As we can see with the financial industry melt down, it only takes so long before the truth is known and the price must be paid.
Schools, doctors, and medical health professionals turn to the APA as a scapegoat allowing them to perpetrate the "gay" myth. The insanity must stop and your article is a great step forward.
Every person with Same Sex Attraction should have access to all information, only then can they really make a "choice".
Nobody is born "gay". Nobody has the right to tell another person’s child they are "gay" (schools, the mental health industry and PFLAG for example).
Never regret the experiences of your life. Use them to prepare yourself for a wonderful future.
Only by being honest with yourself will you ever be able to trust anyone. You my friend are destined to flourish, not just exist.
Your courage and strength will multiply many fold. Congratulations for your honesty and openness.
For those looking for help visit:
www.narth.com
www.pathinfor.org
www.jonahweb.org
www.homosexuality101.com
www.pfox.org
May G-d bless you always.
Sincerely,
Jose Schwartz

(115)
Jonaton,
October 5, 2008 5:59 PM

A response to criticism.

Dear Readers and Authors alike,
I would like to share my inspiration from this story. I found it to be incredibly informative. It uncovered, for me, a very glossed over topic in the homosexual world that is too often the road less traveled.
David clearly did some serious soul searching, and is not lying to us. I think it is very unfair to suggest that this article is attacking homosexuals. It takes serious gall to accuse him of any foul play. He never mentioned, "you should do it to," or "I hate gay people," etc. He came from a completely compassionate point of view. He simply gave over his story.
He found his same-sex attraction to be a hindrance in his life, not something to be celebrated. I can only thank him for sharing just a portion of his incredible journey through battling a same-sex attraction, and keeping true to Torah.
I am a Baal Teshuva. I also face a same-sex attraction. I came out in college, and found a similar reaction. I found pain, loneliness, and rejection from 'gay' peers. My 'straight' peers were more than supportive. They tried many things to "hook me up" with other guys, but I never found relationships. I would more commonly find guys with seriously bad relationship habits, who were even worse friends.
These days, in the Jewish world, I find happiness. I find realness. I find people who want to change the world.
I have a few questions, though, for those out there who really think there's something wrong with what David wrote:
Who are you to say I shouldn't change?
Who are you to say that I can't change?
Why should I invest in something I don't fit in? Why is it that you celebrate a man who declares, "I'm gay," but you demonize a man who says, "you know, I've thought it through, and I'd rather not." People who demean and demonize others for their lifestyle choice sound way more like intolerant fundamentalists than a Jew who simply didn't want to be gay.
Please, next time you decide I'm wrong for not wanting to be gay, think about my feelings, not your own sense of right and wrong.

(114)
Ari,
October 5, 2008 5:57 PM

Sure, one can be observant and gay

-- just as one can be observant and eat pork while driving on shabbat. For all those arguing the observant-and-gay angle, let me ask you: Is there *any* non-criminal activity that an observant Jew absolutely CANNOT engage in?

(113)
Seth,
October 5, 2008 5:57 PM

Why all the HATRED? Where's the intellectual HONESTY?

Let me start by thanking David for writing such a thought provoking article. It was certainly eye-opening for me. And yet reading the comments has also been eye-opening. When I read some of the comments I sensed attack and hatred. Why is this necessary? In this article David writes about his own experiences overcoming SSA. Why is that reason to attack him? Why since he chose to overcome his homosexual urges does that mean he is not being true to himself? Why does it mean that he must have only been bisexual to begin with? Why does it mean that his wife and family must be miserable? Why does it mean that he must have a terrible sex life with his wife? Is it because we have all been brainwashed by the media to believe "change" is not possible? Well, have we done the research? Are we familiar with the studies that have been done? Because if not, why do we have the right to attack David for writing about his own experiences? I see no reason to attack or even question what David writes. I found his article interesting and informative and I see his method as a plausible option for those who experience homosexual feelings. That doesn't mean that it will work for everyone but it certainly is worth exploring! The world has made tremendous progress in eradicating discrimination against people who experience homosexual urges. Why should we discriminate against those who choose to overcome those urges? And unless we have done extensive research on how "change" is not possible (which from what I understand is hard to prove) then I believe we do not have the right to attack David or discriminate against him for his life choices. What happened to intellectual honesty and tolerance? Does that only apply when it is pro-gay? I don't think that would be considered intellectual honesty. Something to think about...

(112)
zelda,
October 5, 2008 5:46 PM

True Teshuva

This is an appropriate article to read during the ten days of teshuva between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. Behavior is a choice. We must be aware of our human nature and do what is needed to help us make the choices the Torah wants us to make. We know we don't want stealing to occur, but it will anyway. We try to deter it by having cameras in stores, guards, detectors on tags, etc. We agree that it is wrong to steal. Do theives, burglars, robbers, think it is wrong? If they could convince us that they have a genetic gene forcing them to steal and that it is not their choice, they would do so! That is what has happened with teh gay movement. They hav enot accepted that they can and should stop their actions and have bamboozled the rest of society to belive that what they do is not a choice but a gene they have. I understand that the yetser hora is strong, but it can be overcome, and David has proven that. Go forth and multiply is our first commandment. These men are fertile and yet refuse to allow the world to continue, by their actions. Follow David's return to truth and the world can continue to survive.Pray to be helped.

(111)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 5:45 PM

Aish, What a disappointment.

I'm saddened to see Aish put forth such a stereotyped view of gay relationships. Many gay people in our Jewish community have healthy, commited relationships surrounded by the support and blessings of the community.Please know that your views do NOT represent the majority of the views of Jewish people who are also equally commited to their spiritual life.

(110)
Susan in SA,
October 5, 2008 5:31 PM

Wrong or right, innate or acquired - Who cares?

Firstly, David, I commend your senstitively insightful article and Aish for providing this forum.
Re Garett's comment above:
The Torah says that much that we do in our daily lives in undesirable or repugnant to Torah - swearing, unkindness, sex outside marriage. Homosexuality happens to be there too. And most of us are doing one or the other aveirah (wrongdoing that is harmful to our soul). We dont reject people who act 'out of line' even welcoming ex-prisoners and ex-abusers into shuls and homes.
Most important to me, it seems, is that there are maybe 2 broad categories of gay men: (1) Products of the triadic families that David describes so well - where gayness is a sad yearning for and distortion of a an unmet early need, and (b) gay men who are genuinely, emotionally healthy, commited people at peace with their insides and choices.
Either way, David's letter suggests we seek the truth of our own situation rather than hiding behind this facade of 'sad gay' promiscuity etc - and return to whoever our true inner healthy self is.

(109)
John,
October 5, 2008 5:24 PM

For those who understand

I'd like to congratulate David on his beautifully written and honest article. It is certain to raise criticism being the topic so controversial. In my view this article was written for those who face homosexuality in an honest and courageous way, and who do not simply follow the 'fashion' of the day. Those who have been through the unwanted feelings of not belonging and have strived for finding their own self in an environment and culture that values only what is easy and immediate will ceirtainly understand him.

(108)
Rick,
October 5, 2008 4:57 PM

Abomination?

G-d forbid one is "Gay by G_d" since we are formed in his image (which can be male, female, trans, gay *or* straight), you all cannot seem to live with lifes differences. You want everyone to be the way you "think" they "should" be and you would find something else to hate them for. It may be the sad truth, but every single human being has different qualities. Qualities, whether male *or* female *or* somewhere in between, whether gay *or* straight *or* somewhere in between. These people have been around since time began, and will be until the end of time. We were in the Torah, the Koran, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, in fact we probably wrote parts of all the texts. We are practicing our religious beliefs the best way we know how, just as the Highest Priests and Rabbis practice their religious beliefs the best way they know. No one is right and no one is wrong. If your neighbor is not hurting you, then his/her lifestyle should be of no concern to you as yours is of no concern to him/her. You work to make teshuva for you, and your neighbor will work to make a better world for him/her. Homosexuality is not environmental, it is not because one is from a dysfunctional family, it is a "Gift from the All Mighty Himself and is therefore just as sacred as you believe your heterosexual life is.

(107)
Irv,
October 5, 2008 4:52 PM

There are two types of homosexuals.One innate and one aquired.

God doesn't make junk. Some children are born homosexual .Some are born heterosexual and take on a homosexual life style for a variety of reasons.
It is blasphemous to believe that God would instill in certain children the potential for pain and suicide.It is society that is to blame.
The Torah is in error by not presenting both alternatives.

(106)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 4:45 PM

Conflict is Exciting

Thank you Amy... I am a gay male orthodox Jew and I have suffered tremendously, mostly because I have been triyng to figure out why God would torture me. I have come to the conclusion that what God wants from each and every one of us is to enter into loving relationships, to commit ourselves to the benefit of someone other than ourselves. I don't know if what I'm doing is "wrong". If I get to the "pearly gates" and I am questioned because I was gay, then my retort will be: "Well, what did you expect me to do? At least I loved someone other than myself...".. I am in a committed relationship with a wonderful man. I think about him all day long. We don't cheat on each other because we both want an intense, committed relationship with no outside inteference. What the HELL is wrong with that? Why would God condemn that, when there are Hitlers, Mansons and various psychopaths out there?

(105)
Michael Mitchell,
October 5, 2008 4:37 PM

Being Gay, Being Jewish, Being Honest

Theories of the cause of homosexuality have come on from the primitive and unproven caricature of the weak father and the smothering mother. Being gay is not an abreaction to a disturbed childhood, being abused as a child, having poor role models, having a weakness to the temptations of the Yetzer Harah or many other flawed arguments. One is born gay and trying to change one's sexuality to conform with those who claim their sexuality is closer to Torah ideals is a sign of a complete misunderstanding of the nature of sexuality and validates the fear and hatred of 'the other'. G-d created me, He created me Gay. Many Comtemporary Orthodox Rabbis have at least come to the conclusion that being Gay cannot be a crime as it does not require the person to make a choice of his/her sexuality. Sexuality can virtually never be manipulated - in the 60's and beyond, psychiatrists spend years subjecting their gay patients to years of pointless, painful, unsuccessful 'therapy'. What Rabbis condemn is the act of Homosexual sex, even if it is in the context of a monogamous loving and commited relationship. And until people grow up and accept this, needless pain will be caused by families who reject their gay children. With all the good intentions in the world one is no more able to change one's sexuality than to change lefthandedness to righthandedness or skin colour. Homosexuality has been around for as long as mankind has been around and yes, some godless groups of gay people religionise their sexuality and live lives centred around sex. That is not all gay people though. The Teshuva that every Jew can perform, whether straight or gay is to accept with love those who a society that should know better commonly marginalises, demonises and rejects. A gay Jew can live a Torah life and to tell a person that he/she is doomed to a life of solitary misery as to form a partnership with a loving partner would be sinful is to commit an act of the greatest cruelty and ignorance. "Robert" whether he exists or is a construction, became a baal teshuva and now apprently lives happily with his wife and children in Israel. I bet his wife has a different story.

(104)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 4:35 PM

G-D made Me Gay and Loves me as I am..no need to change!

I would like to cancel my monthly subscription to aish.com.immediatley.
I am appalled at your article regarding returning to G-d and spirituality , by returning to straightdum, when I have fortunately been given the gift of learning through truly spiritual orthodox rabbis, that my homosexuality is a gift from Hashem, rather than a sin. My neshuma always knew that, but its been reaffirmed by a truly non judgemental, torah scholar, who can see beyond the lies and judgements that only serve to make many feel better than me and at least 10% of any human geographical population. I was born Gay, there was no choice *or* sin involved and I am so tired and fed up with those who would try to hurt, shame *or* punish me for the gift of my gayness which comes directly from Hashem.
I have no expectation that the majority of your readers, *or* administrators of aish dot com, would either understand the truth of 10% of humankind, cause you have been taught lies and myths regarding homosexuality and have caused enormous harm to so many. Its no wonder that Jews have the highest assimilation rate of most religions and that is due to the shame and guilt so many of you pour on the innocent souls who happen to have been born gay. Did you know that science has uncovered different brain chemistrys between gay and straights.
I love Hashem and I know I am loved by Hashem just the way I am .. no need to feel shame *or* badly about the wonderful gay man I am and Shame Shame on you who would try to make me feel sinful, shameful *or* anything other than the perfect being that Hashem created in his image.

(103)
shlomo lazarus,
October 5, 2008 4:33 PM

David razes Goliath

Yosher koach for relating your journey in such an honest and insightful message. Jonah should be more proactive- and attack the sholosh klippos hatameos which run a mock in velt. Your eloquence and your experience cannot be kept a secret. We lose youngsters to spiritual charlatans who morally bankrupt. Your time is now.
Chassima Tova and may your courage and emunah be a guiding light for troubled and healthy Yidden

(102)
alan,
October 5, 2008 4:13 PM

I am sorry that you could not find a fulfilling ad happy gay relationship.
Not all of mine were happy,and not all were bad. But I do know two things,a) that I am very happy and content with the way I am, and b)that I love God and he loves me as I am.
I truly pray that your life now brings you all the happiness and joy that we all deserve, no matter what our sexual orentation is.
There is One God and he loves each and every one of us.

(101)
Beth,
October 5, 2008 4:13 PM

insanity

Wow, I thought this crazy insanity only ran in zealots of the Conservative, Republican, Eavangelical Christian faith. It's amazing to me that people of my own faith beleive this drivel. Homosexuality is not a choice. No one chooses to be different/ostricized. You don't choose to be gay and it's not something you can "turn off". I hope this man realizes that he is still gay, no matter what he thinks or has done.

(100)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 4:12 PM

Response to Amy

I very much appreciate and admire David's honesty and courage to look at himself and his choices from a Torah perspective. It is obvious that Amy is not observant. If she were she would know that the Torah specifically says that for "a man to lie with a man as with a woman is an abomination." I have come to the realization, as has David, that coming from damaging, dysfunctional households has a major and sometimes devastating impact on our choices as adults.
Amy, it is Erev Yom Kippur. Perhaps you should look into doing tshuvah, learn, and return to Torah Judaism.

(99)
Shira Davida Goldberg,
October 5, 2008 4:10 PM

Be Who You Are

One of the most enlightening and heartbreaking demonstations of such a mentality is the brillant documentary Trembling Before G-d, which shows how seemingly impossible it is for frum homosexuals to ever be able to be comfortable with their own sexual identity. Such an expose into this "forbidden" world leaves many victims in its wake. Not being able to be true to yourself, having to hide who you are, the fear and rejection and the constant feeling of shame are a reality for many Jewish gays. I know of many examples in the Torah that enlighten and bring to the forfront lessons of inclusion, healing and acceptance. But on the most religious days of the entire year, when we are to look within ourselves and ask forgiveness for our transgressions, a very real and very personal introspective and blessed time, we are pointing fingers? To look around and to judge another Jew has nothing to do with Yom Kippur. To make another feel such "shame" during Yom Kippur, when the personal relationship with HaShem is tainted, leaving many Jews feeling even more isolated and disconnected is what is truly shameful. Every Jew has the right to feel the community's embrace. This ideology is within an historical context, like our historical views of slavery, something we would never condone now but was acceptable and duly noted in the Chumash. Isn't it our duty to Love Thy Neighbor? Why the need to reduce a person down to who they love based on who you do. Shouldn't we ecourage people to be happy and celebrate that they have found their beshert? With only about 14 million Jews in the entire world, .2% of the world's population, to make any one of us feel vulnerable to the wrath of antiquated and/or political rhetoric is incorrigable. Let's all start off the New Year on the right foot, not with an accusatory and demeaning pointed finger. As far as I see it, homophobia is what should be intervened and questioned, anything but love should not be reinforced or tolerated. Read up on David and Jonathan, probably the only hint remaining. Discrimination is still very real, homophobia is really the last acceptable form. One day it it will be as foreign to us as owning slaves or having children with midwives.
L'Shana Tova

(98)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 3:43 PM

THANK YOU

Excellent article and well timed.

(97)
Jim,
October 5, 2008 3:34 PM

One of the best articles I have read on the topic

This piece is truly agft fro G-d to our generation. Thank you! Readers will note the disparity of reactions between faithful and secular Jews. Either we trust and believe in G-d, or we do not. Thank you Aish for publishing this shining light of Truth.

(96)
aaron,
October 5, 2008 3:19 PM

David, you are a remarkable person and Baruch Ha-Shem Aish is here to provide the forum for your brave comments which others can emulate. Being a Baal Teshuva and coming from a country where homosexuality is rampant, I can attest to the fact that homosexuality is nothing but yet another crafty tool of the Yetzer Hora. My Rabbi taught me how the most powerful tool of Yetzer Hora is to make us depressed and make our soul go cold. With all the hype gay community shows about how happy they are to have found their "true self", deep down they are all full of depression, anxiety, and yes a lot of anger which the visitors 89 and 91 here are showing. I had a professor at NYU who was known as a genius, and had the warmest and calmest demeanor. He used it to promote his gay beliefs on the fresh minds of college students. I was one of his fvorite students with great marks. But after 1 year of trying, when he realized I was not buying into his "philosophy" unlike all his other students (thanks to my discovering Torah in that same year), he showed me his anger and resentment. It was incredible to see how this warm and calm genious was suddenly full of anger, hatred and resentment beneath that external surface. So, David I encourage you to help pull others out of this "psychological prison" homosexual movement has created for them. I am certain you are among Ha-Shem's favorite sons of whom He must be so proud to have found his way back to the life of Kedusha. Those still living in Tuma have no clue what Kedusha means!

(95)
Chaya,
October 5, 2008 3:15 PM

I am glad the author has found a path in life that works for him, but it is not the one and only path. A person who is gay can certainly be a good Jew, and he should not have to change his sexual identity to please the closed-minded people in his community. It's true that some gay men are promiscuous, but so are many straight men! Many gay men today choose to marry and have children, and they and their families should be fully embraced by the Jewish community.

(94)
Dov,
October 5, 2008 3:01 PM

to EMW and Marc

There was a time (less than fifty years ago) when having a boy/girlfriend did not necessarily mean having a sexual relationship. It still doesn't, of course, but statistics of teenage and parental behavior indicate that the assumption is that most teenagers in american society need to have "protection." Multiple partners over a few years is a norm. The TV, films and commercials tell us if you want to be a sensible, resposible, and mature person you need one thing: protection. I guess the playing field has changed... And the schools send a message. Our teachers scream that it is irresponsible to keep your head in the sand and we need to protect our kids against the results of (the encouraged) promiscuity. Yes, it is better to avoid a gazillion unwanted babies - but can somebody please admit one thing: The message is unavoidably also that something is seriously wrong with you, son or daughter, if you think sex is only a part of marriage. You are kind of like a priest. Ouch. It seems to me that once marriage is declared intrinsically irrellevant to sexuality then it is a short hop-skip-and-jump to accepting that sexuality has nothing whatever to do with family and/or having children. Oops, I am late on that one, it seems. This is an untouchable, now. It goes hand-in-hand with self-determination so that questioning these things brings up angry reactions, perhaps defensive. I guess the sixties were indeed a time of change and the change is here to stay. But does that make it right? My point here is that it does. The way people we know behave, pressures us when it is a meta-message. Like smoking, racism, or in the case of many healthy and useful things, as well. I believe you are espousing strong views in the same way my parents of the WWII generation did: "This is the way it's done so fall in line and stop being open-minded!" - they said by demonizing and calling my chosen role-models crackpots. They never understood how I could take the bother to question whether what everyone around me was doing had real value. The movies were about it, the glamour included it, the actors did it. Like Smoking. It was actually sacreligious, in a way. And it didn'e even impact on their "rights". Not so this area, where some people feel that they and their entire lifestyle are being invalidated. Well, I do not think that is my problem, first, and second, why do I need to fall in line with their opinions? I thought the hallmark of sexual liberation was open-mindedness. Not any more, based on the discussion I overhear at work. The Torah I learn teaches me that you and I have a human responsibility to see through our OWN eyes, not through the eyes of our college professors, nor anyone else's. I had a college professor who exuded self-confidence and taught that you are a fool if you use any religious or moral code for guiding your personal sexual attitudes. Society around you was just fine, though. Strange double standard, no? I know that doing what everyone else in one's generational strata is doing feels liberating, but perhaps it only has that payoff in the context of the source - the parochial and puritanical soiety immediately preceeding it. This open-mindedness may quickly lose its panache once it achieves "mandate" status. I think it will, so it will be quite different when the pendulum swings the other way. I feel a Jew has the right and privelege to stay off the pendulum altogether, with G-ds help.

(93)
Amy,
October 5, 2008 2:43 PM

You say the "sexual attraction I felt to other men was not my true nature, it was an attempt driven by my yetzer hara." It may very well be that it was not your true nature and attaching a moral value to this type of inclination is certainly your right. But who is anyone to say it is not right for another? You've ascribed to a philosophy that says it is evil. But that is your choice, your view, you belief. It is purely subjective. I feel sorry for the homosexuals who are trapped in Orthodox Jewish society and are MISERABLE...not because they don't wish to be homosexual, but because they do wish to be so and are damned, damned, damned by this cruel, narrow minded way of thinking. The dignity of human sexual relations is not grounded in gender, but in love, commitment and volition. Those are the values that make a sexual relationship holy between adults.

(92)
Michael E,
October 5, 2008 2:33 PM

One of the greatest things about Aish is that, although it certainly has a mission to promote strict Torah-based Judaism, it also keeps up an open, tolerant, and irreverent attitude designed to meet contemporary Jews where they are. I, for one, know that I will never be a strict follower of Jewish law. But I enjoy coming to Aish to learn about the aspects of Jewish learning that I still know little about.
In that light, it was with great disappointment that I got this "present" of an article in my inbox today. My contacts in the Orthodox world have always been endearingly torn about the question of homosexuality: how demand adherence to Jewish law in a world where the strict adherence to the law would cause extreme distress and self-denial in so many people? Some of the time, they come up with highly problematic solutions (comparing homosexuality to pedophilia or a gambling addiction, suggesting that gay people learn to be celibate). But it least they wrestle seriously with the question, no differently than they wrestle with other challenging commandments.
I've never seen a Jewish version of the ex-gay movement and I thought enough of Jews that I thought I never would. While I wish no ill will toward "David" and others like him, it beggars belief that the solution for most gay Jews is to pray enough. It is true that many women (whose sexuality is more fluid, according to much current research) and a few men may happily learn to love the opposite sex as "David" did. But many others will never be able to make this transition. To hold up "David"'s story as the preferred path is to make other gay people feel as not only sinners, but failures too. When people are told that their most primal impulses are sinful, something to be fixed as part of the broader mission of "tikkun olam," they can only deduce that maybe Judaism does believe in original sin, and they were born with it.
I wish Aish would have thought harder before publishing this article during the most Holy days of the year.

(91)
Sol,
October 5, 2008 2:31 PM

An amazing article and an amazing indiviual, more so for being able to share his remarkable story. Thank you to David and to Aish.

(90)
notanexgayministry,
October 5, 2008 2:28 PM

You're so brave, if only you would have fought for a positive gay image

I'm happy for you that you now have a family - hopefully you raise happy children - different than how you were raised.
I'm a happy gay Jewish man living in a happy relationship just as my parents showed me at home. I never turned to drugs, bathhouses or pscyhologists the way you did to escape the world your family created for you. I live my life everyday in pride showing other young gay men and women that you can have a great life if you put effort into it. If only you would have put some effort into it you could have left a positive mark on the world rather than give AISH this dribble to publish. Thanks for contributing to the negative image ignorance develops.

(89)
Garett Benson,
October 5, 2008 2:19 PM

Innate or Acquired? Who Cares?!!

As I read through these comments I started wondering whether homosexuality is really innate or acquired, but then I stopped myself. Who cares?
Is there a genetic predisposition for alcoholism? Probably, but again, who cares? Maybe the question is helpful in terms of prevention or treatment strategies, but for the most part it's a moot point.
The real question is whether homosexuality is undesirable. The Torah says it's very undesirable. End of story. Any other "interpretation" is intellectually dishonest.
I know for many of you it's not easy getting used to the idea that homosexuality is wrong. At the college where I was indoctrinated homophobia was considered a capital crime. But could it be that homophobia is actually a healthy (innate!) human trait?
Of course homophobia does not mean an aversion to homosexuals, but an aversion to homosexual practices, meaning a Jew who engages in homosexual behavior is still cherished by G-d based on his potential.

(88)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 2:12 PM

Wow! Thank you for sharing

For years, my friends and I have wondered how to understand both the tendency of people we know and love to be gay and what the Torah says on the matter. After reading your very thoughful article, I feel like I have some place to start, something to think about and to learn (because many things you say hold true for all people in a number of different situations). I thank you sincerely for taking the time and the courage to share this with a public audience. Mazal Tov on your son becoming a bar mitzvah and all the best to you and your family.

(87)
Gary,
October 5, 2008 2:07 PM

AISH is disgusting

For years I have asked you to deal with this topic in a sensitive way that demonstrates a commitment to taking care of everyone in the community not just those you find acceptable. And this is what you decide to publish.
I am cancelling my subscription and I am so glad I never gave you a dime

(86)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 2:03 PM

Continued Mazel

I'm glad it worked for the author, but it usually a case of suppressing the desire. However, the substition of another ie, a woman may satisfy some men.

(85)
David,
October 5, 2008 2:00 PM

Recently, my father and I started bonding and I noticed my desire for men, [sexually] subsided. Other factors were also involved, and all basically followed what the author stated. I have not pursued this as far and as well as David the author, but his words give me encouragement and hope. I am glad to know that someone sees and feels as I do, and I am not alone. Thank you for this article, D.C.

(84)
4 gauge,
October 5, 2008 1:57 PM

David's comments are right on the mark from what I have observed over the last 40 years. I am not a homosexual, nor have I ever had desires in that direction, but after many years living in their proximity, I can tell you that David has got it nailed. I don't care how many letters a man, or woman has behind their name, homosexuality is a choice & an acquired behavioral charactic. By saying that it is somehow genetic, they think it lets them off the hook & they can walk away blameless, thus sending the blame on to something other than their own decisions. God requires us to stand accountable for our own choices, be it our sexual orientation, or how we treat our children.

(83)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 1:39 PM

reply to 47

I am sorry that you felt compelled to throw insults and lash out at David. Where is your compassion and tolerance for him, or is it only the counter-cultural for whom you have tolerance? Judging another as you did only reveals your own lack of self assuredness. To answer your question about rising rates of homosexuality: maybe it is the growing acceptance of it that has caused more people to proclaim it. One more thing: common sense would disallow homosexual expression, for it is basically suicidal. The instinct to reproduce is thwarted, also, if it is genetic, and since homosexuals should not be passing on the gene, one would think the numbers would decrease rather than increase. And, why would G-d make people who are unable to comply with His instructions to marry and multiply?The story of Jacob and Esau demonstrates that though one might be born with negative traits, by following Torah, one can rise above his weaknesses. David's example teaches us, even if there is some kind of propensity to sin, with Torah, we can rise above such proclivities. Torah raises us above our animalistic soul, but excuses keep us down.

(82)
Jose,
October 5, 2008 1:30 PM

This is monstruous.

The author should really look into himself and try to battle the humongous ego that would make him write something that so arrogantly condemns homosexuality. The fact that "during the time he was gay" he followed a promiscuous, stereotypical lifestyle doesn't mean that's how all people live.
One can only wish the best for someone like him, who prefers to deny his true identity to fit religious, not spiritual, standards.

(81)
Jay Federman, MDF,
October 5, 2008 1:18 PM

Homosexuality is not a choice

The Torah is always true, but Chazal can misinterpret it. Man should not lie with man, it is written, but the interpretation MUST be changed. Why is a baby born blind or without limbs? Hashem's ways are His own, and we cannot always understand them. I believe that man's sexual orientation is inborn, but that there is a gradation from true heterosexuality to obligatory homosexuality. It it those in between to whom Hashem refers. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that those who have been "cured" of homosexuality (not bisexuals, to whom I believe the Torah refers), if they marry a person of the opposite sex, have terrible sex lives.

(80)
Anthony,
October 5, 2008 1:14 PM

gay & straight are both equaly good

The Reformed sinogogue accepts homosexuality. Othodox and Conservative sinogogues don't yet....So I guess Aish isn't part of the Progresive or Reformed synogogue, or is it?
...I wonder what Barbra Streisand would think about this article? (her son being gay)

(79)
Some Questions,
October 5, 2008 1:14 PM

Questions, questions

The article was thought prevoking and beautiful, but in some ways it just seems "too good to be true." I know someone - a woman - who has felt homosexual feelings ever since she was old enough to have a "crush." She became observant going into high school, but the feelings did not go away. she tells me how, during her seminary year in Israel, she would cry her heart out by the kotel, begging G-d to please "take it away", yet her feelings only intensified, never diminished. You're telling me that some therapy will totally turn her feelings around? SHE EVEN GOT MARRIED, AND GOT DIVORCED! now she is not observant anymore, largely because the community no longer accepted her when people found out about her "gayness".
Now, my question is- if there is an explicit command in the Torah that prohibits gay relations, WHY would G-d create someone with such a klala? especially since the man-woman union is such a fundamental step in the journey of reaching shlaimus, completion.
Do we have the answers? or are we trying to create ones that "fit into" the Torah perspective but may not be totally accurate for everyone? maybe the answer is that WE JUST DONT UNDERSTAND. I'd really like to hear about the marriages of these "recovered" men and women- how are they doing in their marriages 10, 20, even 30 years down the line?
What do you guys think?

(78)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 1:14 PM

help

I will apriciate for you to tell me how can I deal ith my best fiend whu I suspect he is dealing with a lot of inner truble because he is descovering he is gay which in our society is not acceptet, I relly want to help him but we have never talked about this theme before, I lovehim and want to help but I also fill guilty of helping him to do something thats not "the right thing" because I know he will suffer a lot with that life style in his family and sociey.

(77)
Sheree,
October 5, 2008 1:09 PM

Awesome

This article is an awesome testimony to the power in the Torah drawing this man to truth. Keep helping others with your testimony!

(76)
Ariel Nacson,
October 5, 2008 1:09 PM

A warm and inspiring journey to maliness

Although I do not understand the struggles of homosexuality I greatly respect your courage and initiative to openly express the issue and address in the most sincere and inspiring manner.

(75)
Jonella,
October 5, 2008 1:02 PM

What a WONDERFUL piece!

I am amazed to find such a WONDERFUL, INSPIRED AND INSPIRING AND (MOST AMAZING OF ALL) TRULY TRUTHFUL (in the psychological sense) piece - at AISH, no less!! When I saw the link to this article, I did not suspect that I would find such a good, intelligent and psychologically knowledgeable article. I'm truly impressed.
However, in my experience, I must say, one has to understand, that the damage that is done in very destructive homes such as that that the author describes, can be greater than what David, apparently, suffered - and not everyone has the ability to climb back out of that damage. For some the damage is too great and more difficult (really impossible) to overcome.
But David has given hope, with this article, to many men - and even more than that, he has shouted out the truth about homosexuality - it is NOT a trick of nature - it comes from terribly dysfunctional parenting - and is truly a tragedy in that way. But he is a wonderful example of a strong and brave and committed person who was able to overcome his pathology.
Thank you, David!
(I write as someone who is not gay, but who knows many people who are - and who spent years in psychoanalytic psychotherapy and therefore knows well how such pathologies come about. Many people are very averse (actually frightened) to facing the facts about how children can be ruined by hideous, hurtful parenting. It happens all the time, all around us. The more we're enlightened by the truth, as David has written it, the better off the world will be. I do believe that Judaism sets a wonderful standard - and what I myself have seen and experienced in the traditional world of Judaism confirms - the power of love and nurturance, guided by the finest of values, in creating healthy, happy, productive human beings. That is one reason why I, too, am something of a Baal Tshuvah.
Again - Thank you, David! Yashir Koach to him and to others who struggle with this issue.
Jonella
Greenwich Village
New York City

(74)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 1:02 PM

Bottom line: Know that change is an option!

Thank you, David, for your moving article, and thank you, Aish.com, for sharing the article with all of us. I am a young frum man who struggled with SSA and thanks to organizations like JONAH and NARTH and a few years of therapy and hard work I can say that I am fully attracted to women and no longer attracted to men. Along my journey I have met many men (and heard of hundreds) who have also accomplished this change. Many who are happily married with families (and with wife's who know about their past).
I am not one to judge and I respect those who decide to live an "orthodox gay" lifestyle. But I think it is important for men with SSA to know that the change option exists. It takes hard work but I have personally experienced it and I know of many others who can say the same. Articles like this are important for getting out the message that the option of change exists. That way men with SSA can make an informed decision of how they choose to live their lives.

(73)
Mary,
October 5, 2008 12:44 PM

dictionary

Nice to see it discussed. In a society of free speech, speech should be allowed. I just wanted to add one thing: dictionaries used to have a definition which has changed possibly because of political correctness and is no longer findable. It defined an "abomination" as "a sin that spreads". It is not that homosexuality or eating shrimp is behavior that is horrific in comparison to other behavior. It is that it has the potential for spreading unlike other sins. With that definition, it certainly points towards choice as the explanation for a large percentage of people, and will be more so as this society moves in that direction.

(72)
David Ben-Ariel,
October 5, 2008 12:30 PM

Must have been a bisexual

As a recovering homosexual, it appears the author was a closet bisexual all along since he's now married. I hope he lives happily ever after and that others who aren't bisexual are able to control their sexuality rather than be controlled by it. One very negative and dangerous aspect of some of those "help" for homosexual organizations it their prejudice, their stereotype that all gay men have been molested, as I heard one lecture in Jerusalem and strongly disagreed with his ignorance. We are to let the truth set us free - not fables.

(71)
ilan,
October 5, 2008 12:22 PM

care about truth?

if aish really cared about truth, they would include an article from a homosexual man who is happy and fulfilled. many exist. i am not gay, but i can refer you to quite a few.
just because david's turn to homosexuality was a pathetic compensation for feelings of inferiority doesn't mean that others in the lifestyle are similarly pathetic.
and if it is true that "homosexuals still suffer depression, suicide, and substance abuse at rates several times higher than the general population," and if this is not due to the pressure of being an outsider, you should be able to provide references that support the claim. similarly, that "most gay men settle for a lifetime of brief, compulsive, and often anonymous sexual couplings, marked by elevated rates of physical abuse," strikes me as simply false. if it's true, prove it. maybe this was just the company david kept. to say "The pornographic mentality of the gay subculture focuses unrelentingly on physique and external appearances" is an cheap shot at the gay community. culture at large focuses on much the same.
that aish and david do not provide any support for these hateful remarks is utterly irresponsible. it shows a lack of concern for the truth. furthermore, it shows that aish is willing to use this forum to manipulate people to how they want them to behave.
david, if you've found happiness, good for you. but just as you wouldn't want others to tell you what your destiny is, and how you should live your life - i don't think you should be judging others.
shame on you for doing so david.
shame on you for your intellectualy dishonesty aish.

(70)
Avi,
October 5, 2008 12:16 PM

Homosexuality is a BEHAVIOR not an Orientation

Sorry to differ with you, Joe. I am a practicing Ph.D. Clinical Psychologist, and have been for over 20 years. I know that our profession teaches the disease or "orientation" model, and believes that a person can't "Change" what he/she is.
I absolutely DISAGREE with this.
Homosexual behavior was originally in the DSM II. Most of use believed back then that it was a behavior, and had done much research on in.
However, with a large influx of people into our profession who were practicing homosexual behaviors as their lifestyle, it became politically correct to change our stand, and remove it from the DSM III.
Then our fellow psychologists spent the next 15 years justifying this with theories and research which was based on smoke and mirrors.
It then became a protected theory, or rather a new "law" that there was such a thing as Homosexuality, and that it was not in the person's control.
This mistaken concept was promulgated to remove the "guilt" from those practicing that behavior, and to legitimize it in the eyes of the world.
But.... deep down, we all have a choice of relating sexually to the other gender or to our own. David is not wrong, though there are many other reasons for a person's choosing to engage in homosexual behavior.
Often it is a matter of simple, old-fashioned operant conditioning. One has a few painful experiences with heterosexual behavior, maybe a few rejections, etc., then experiences homosexual behavior and is positively reinforced for it.
Most men who are regular practitioners of homosexual behavior are very careful with the feelings of the young newbies, and show them lots of affection, acceptance, and all of the positive reinforcements which they failed to receive during their initial attepts at hetero life.
Obviously this can happen at any age or state.
I have inquired about publishing an article or two, but was clearly told it would not be published, as they will not publish anything which opposed the protected theory of homosexuality.
In fact, it has become like racism. Just as if one disagrees with a minority person one is frequently accused of racisim, so if anyone posits that concept that anyone can "change" his/her sexual practices, one is accused of "homophobia" or of hatred towards "gays."
Our profession spreads this misinformation, and is guilty of surpressing opposition to their theories.
But, one should not surpress the truth. ANYONE can choose to change his/her behaviors. Surely, it is not easy. Just as changing an addictive behavior is difficult, so is changing one's sexual behavior.
Also, the person has a strong avoidance behavior which the addict does not always have. Some if not many "gays" are petrified of relating sexually with the opposite gender.
But, it can be done.
And, yes, they can be happy, well-adjusted people after giving up their homosexual behaviors, and adopting heterosexual behaviors.

(69)
Emma Ames,
October 5, 2008 12:14 PM

Terrible Endorsement by Your Website

It is terrible that you endorse the view of this article, that being Gay or Lesbian is sick, abnormal and somehow the result of problems in one's upbringing. The truth that being Lesbian and/or Gay is as natural as being Straight - and it is time that all Jews recognize and accept that Gd loves and endorses all peoples in all our ways.

(68)
Yaw,
October 5, 2008 12:10 PM

A Big Thank you

To aish for showing the article, and to David, nice one.
It gives me and others probably hope.
Assures me that homosexuality is wrong and there is a way out of it, despite people's opinions to the contrary.

(67)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 12:07 PM

Happy for you

I am pleased to see that you have found a life for yourself that you are content with. Perhaps you were never homosexual to begin with, but simply looking to replace a father figure in your life and you misunderstood that part. HOWEVER, i do want to tell you that there is no such thing as being homosexual and CHANGING because one wants to. They may act out differently and perhaps even convince themselves that they can now marry a person of the opposite sex and have a wonderful life together. But unless they are honest with themselves, they are play acting. At any rate, i wish you much love and happiness in life as i also do to those people who are living in same sex relationships.

(66)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 12:00 PM

another perspective

while i deeply hear your experience and view of your relationship to being gay, i want to speak my truth. i am a gay woman and my truth is that i am gay and there is no problem that "caused" me to be gay. my straight path home is to embrace my true self which is that i am a lesbian who loves her sexuality and spirituality and in fact is grateful for my coming out as it was my path to my coming to God. so just to keep the record clear, not all folks who are gay feel that something is wrong with them or their families and do not feel a need to straighten themselves out in order to come home to their true selves or nature.
Blessings to you,
a gay woman

(65)
That Girl,
October 5, 2008 11:56 AM

Response to Joe Kort

Mr. Kort,
After reading your comment there are several points you touch upon that seem to require responses.
However I would like to preface any upcoming comments by saying that you seem like a caring and well intentioned man, and also that, never having stood in your shoes I am not in a position to judge you as a person. So any comments that follow should please be taken in the context of addressing an issue, not a personal criticism in any way.
You said that "A broad brush painted over how others *should* live their lives is always frought with danger and problems."
In one respect this is true. No person independently has the wisdom and clarity of the full bigger picture enough to tell any group of people what they should or should not do (unless the community receiving this advice has voluntarily accepted that individual as someone to guide and direct them.)
However, G-d is another story. He created us, He created the world, and He knows how the system works. He therefore DOES have the clarity and perspective to call the shots of how we, as human beings, should live our lives. Our Father in heaven can tell us what to do (and should, as any good father will try, using the wisdom at his disposal, to guide his children on the most correct path.) However, unlike our earthly parents, G-d's rules and guidance are as infallible as He is.
Of course, like any parent, we have a choice to follow G-d's directives or not. In fact, this is the essence of our humanity. To act in accordance with His will, or to go our own way.
One of G-d's commandments is to love Him. How can He command us to have a feeling? We also are commanded by G-d to love our neighbor. Indeed, if controlling our feelings were not possible, G-d would not ask this of us. What we feel is a choice.
That is not to say that, in any given moment, a person can make any decision. For example, I could not, at this stage in life, CHOOSE to steal a car and run over a little old lady crossing the street. That is much too cruel for the person I am now. However, if I habitually practiced being just a bit more cruel on a daily basis, within a number of years, I would be able to consider such a thing. (Indeed, if you look at history, you can see that armies of the past have used such tactics, having their soldiers hurt and then kill animals repeatedly so that, when faced with their human enemies, they would be able to slaughter them without remorse.)
At the same time, it is not within my range of CHOICE at this time to take my entire wardrobe and donate it to a homeless person. But with many years of practicing generosity, this too is within my reach.
The point I am trying to make here is that our choices can take us down roads we would not necessarily visualize. They can block us into corners, or open doors to vast possibilities. And we can CHOOSE which path to walk down, knowing what destination lies ahead.
You say that "Being gay is not a choice." Is your intention to say that the author of this article never was gay? or that his current heterosexual attraction is an illusion? The question of whether BEING gay is a choice or not is actually a moot point here. The question IS whether or not ACTING UPON THESE DRIVES IS A CHOICE or NOT. Indeed, if G-d has included this prohibition in His Torah, then it IS within the range of choice for each member of humanity. (Someone once described it to me in these plain terms - If G-d knows that something is right or wrong for EVERY Jew then He makes it a mitzvah. If it's only good for some people, then it gets listed as a suggestion.) Of course it is not an easy choice, or one that can be reached quickly, but it is indeed a choice.
You said that for the author of this article, "living as an openly gay or lesbian person would be more harmful...than staying closeted and living a heterosexual life." That may be true, but he is NOT 'closeted' as you say, but rather has addressed and dealt with this issue. The author himself says that, with work, "feeling better about [him]self as a man led to healthy, normal heterosexual attractions." That you have not climbed that mountain does not make it insurmountable.
This sounds harsh, but, if a murderer kills people because he is "living in congruence with who [he] really [is]", you cannot argue that that "*is* the right way to live." We Torah Jews do not define wrong and right by WHAT WE DO. We attempt to define what we do by WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG.
Please forgive me for traversing personal territory, but you say that you are gay and how you presented yourself it seems that you are leading a gay lifestyle. You also said that you have written books about gay identity. With all due respect, it is difficult for someone in your position to agree with the author. Few people could have enough intellectual integrity to overcome the cognitive dissonance that would come from understanding and agreeing with his point of view.
You also said that "I hope an article from AISH comes out about gay and lesbian Jews who are Orthodox." So do I, but probably not in the way that you mean. Being 'Orthodox' requires belief in the divinity of the Torah AND it's laws, and trying one's best to adhere to said laws. Someone who is gay and doesn't act upon it for G-d's sake is to be praised...and speaking openly about that would be a huge kiddush Hashem, a sanctification of G-d's name. May each and every member of our nation merit to overcome our struggles and sanctify G-d's name in our own lives and in the lives of others, and may we merit to see the final redemption this year!
Shana tovah!

(64)
Matt,
October 5, 2008 11:50 AM

IT'S OK TO BE GAY - AND JEWISH

One is born gay. Nothing can change that. I am terribly saddened by Aish's otherwise great work, which has been tarnished with this deceitful article.

(63)
Chaya,
October 5, 2008 11:48 AM

G-d bless you

I have always been astounded that G-d would give some people, whether by reason of heredity or environment, such an impossible test. You clearly have passed this test. I am amazed. I think it is homosexual behavior that is forbidden, not homosexual identity. Be careful not to lose that.

(62)
Maureen,
October 5, 2008 11:47 AM

Thank you for an honest, heartfelt anaylsis..

..of the struggles of homosexuals. You are the first I have heard say it is not genetic, for if it was the human genome study would have let us know years ago! I agree with you about the fractured childhood relationships with mother and father that confuse one's sexual identity. I am grateful that thru the love of God you came to the point where you realized this type of lifestyle is not in God's natural order---it can be medically dangerous and reckless. I also know the feelings of despair and hopelessness that people feel with these same sex attractions. Thank God you returned to the man God created you to be!

(61)
Jereme Scott,
October 5, 2008 11:45 AM

The Pain our Religion creates

God forbid that man should judge what God has created. Look around and smell the flowers. All life was created by God and man should act accordingly. It saddens me to think and know so many jewish men who have no self respect due to the inability of Jewish leaders to accept fellow Jews as human. While I sympathize with David, his story would not have been told if the Jewish Community stood up and wrapped their arms around him and told him that God loves him for who he is. The role models David received were false and judgemental.

(60)
Brina,
October 5, 2008 11:45 AM

It is important for the author as well as readers to be open to the fact that this man's journey is not the journey of all gay Jewish men and woman.

(59)
Beth,
October 5, 2008 11:40 AM

Thank You For Sharing

Thank you to Aish for publishing an article on this subject matter. This topic has been absent for far too long on this site and I am glad to see that many readers are eager to hear and learn more.
David, I come to you with no advice - only the sincere hope that you continue to be blessed by HaShem and that your path through life is made easier by friends and family who love you and value you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this difficult subject matter.

(58)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 11:39 AM

Touching article

David- this comment is for you so I hope you are reading it. Your article touched me to the point of being speechless. I grew up in the kind of household you described--abusive needy mother and emotionally absent father. I am a straight married woman, but my brother "came out" as a teen, and I noticed all his partners were older men who acted as a caring parent. I always wondered if our family contributed to my brother being gay. Now of course if I were to suggest this I would be taken to task for being politically incorrect. Maybe other cases are different, but your article confirms my thoughts.

(57)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 11:35 AM

misguided

As the sister of a gay man, I would agree with many
of your points. Your overall theory about being gay
as an outcome of a dysfunctional triadic family is misguided. The fact that you chose an opposite extreme suggests to me that you are still unsettled in your identity and not embracing your "higher self." I do not believe that homosexuality is a sign
of imperfection and an indication of our baser selves. Your conflict and shame is something that
society has imposed. Pray for inner peace not for
curing homosexuals of a disease they do not have.

(56)
Hymie Zoltsveis,
October 5, 2008 11:18 AM

Exposing the GAY VICTIM AGENDA

Most people are decent enough, and of good will, to NOT wish ill to homosexuals. For whatever reasons, these people have some sort of disability or illness.
We wish them no harm, and hope that they will either be able to recover from, treat, or deal with this disability or illness.
Whether it is a genetic issue or an environmental issue, they clearly are in need of help. One choice is simply to accept their current state, and live as is.
TWO MAJOR COMPLAINTS that many decent people have are:
1)The gay lobby---in spite of economic and educational levels at or above average, have forced their "lifestyle" in the faces of decent people. This forcing is objectionable, and makes many good people angry. This "lifestyle" is forbidden by Torah, and is unhealthy and unnatural. Life expectancy---due to AIDS, Hepatitis, dirty practices, and mental illness-related suicides is nearly FIFTEEN YEARS LOWER than among similar non-homosexuals. This "deathstyle" is not as promoted by the gay lobby. It is not healthy---mentally of physically
2) People of good will are VERY upset by the gay lobby's trashing and virtual banning of those who seek to treat, cure or help gay people resolve their problems. The gay lobby seem to want as many people as possible to "remain" gay. If a professional or ill individual wants to seek treatment, they are vilified, de-legitimized, and punished.
WHY IS IT that the gay lobby, which CLAIMS to seek openness and acceptance among the people, are FASCISTS when it comes to people making choices to get help, or treat themselves.
How would we feel if polio victims closed down polio immunization clinics? Flu victims closing down flu immunization drives?
The gay lobby is a problem, and sadly it has become a THIRD RAIL of American politics and civilization.

(55)
Bevrly,
October 5, 2008 11:14 AM

Well written

I read the article, read all the comments, then re-read the article. Thank you for your insights into your experience of a gay lifestyle.

(54)
ruth housman,
October 5, 2008 11:10 AM

the roots of identity

The roots of identity are complex and surely, "personal". I know many gay and bisexual people, some in couples, some single, and some who are firmly rooted to their identity and others who are not, some who are very fulfilled in their choice of lifestyle and others, who have personal issues. And I can say that coming "OUT" has a lot to do with the judgmental attitude expressed in this piece. Besides, personal happiness happens to be a measure of self independent of whether one is heterosexual or homosexual, and I would say that this article is blatantly judgmental of others who choose a lifestyle that is ego syntonic, meaning it "fits" for them and it feels so right.
Whatever the author has done is his choice and his reasons for doing it are his. Perhaps others do feel this way, and perhaps many others do not. Who is he to judge what's right or wrong with respect to sexual preferences? This is a diverse and beautiful world in which I would say that if I were God, that it's a gift, namely a gift from God, that we are all in this together, and have such a wide diversity of not only religious and spiritual practise but also likes and dislikes which run deep, and even run to choice of mates.
For me, it is TORAH, pure Torah, to say to another, live with LOVE, and how you do it is not what's important to God but who you are: namely a compassionate person who knows what it is to support and cherish all this creation. To take some kind of judgmental, "religious Jewish attitude" towards homosexuality iw wrong. I feel this and I can tell you that I am experiencing total visible beshert, meaning amazing coincidence, so if I feel am speaking for God, all I can tell you is that you are wrong to speak of LOVE in a way that excludes a significant number of loving and beautiful people.

(53)
John,
October 5, 2008 11:09 AM

Thank you David for helping me!

Coming from a similar background, but a very brutal one, I find great hope in your article. Let me explain. As a child our mother "flogged" us with wire coat hangers and our dad beat us with the buckle on his belt. For the most part we were astranged from our parents, though in later years we all came to forgive them. Still, the scars of my childhood drove me away from a genuine loving relationship that should have been my life. For over 40 years I have struggled with this inner conflict and now I see there is yet hope. Truly God is speaking here to many of us through you by moving you to write about yourself. Thank you, many times over. I hope the Fall Holy Days bring you much joy and reward! May God Bless you and your family! Pray for eachother!
John

(52)
anonymous,
October 5, 2008 11:09 AM

Be yourself

I commend you for finding your own path but there are many of us who feel that their path lies in being true to yourself. I come from a yeshivish "black hat" family and I am in the closet as far as they are concerned. I live in another state where I can be out and be myself. The reason why so many gays and lesbians are suicidal is because they feel guilty, confused and like they don't fit in (believe me I was there). Jewish gays and lesbians need community support not contempt. I am a member of my local Aish shul and I daven there every shabbos. Everyone in shul is very supportive and non-judgemental. That's one of the great things about Aish. I urge everyone to find your own path and don't be pressured by society to conform to their ideals. Always be yourself!

(51)
Devorah,
October 5, 2008 11:06 AM

Free love v true love

Let's not be so hasty to laud or condemn. This is simply a story about free love versus true love. We have to admit that even as open minded people we can see a small flaw in the gay community when it comes to individuals taking advantage of youth and idealism in free love. This flaw exists not only among gays but among all people. And I would recomend this article to many young girls struggling with promiscuity. I feel there are people who hashem has built with a definite sense of self that is different from the status quo, otherwise we would be bored. But there are people who truly are lost as well. I think reading into Sodom and Gomorra a bit, that those people were lost, and taking advantage or even raping others. I know many gay people who would never even think of doing such a thing, who have wonderful parents, and fabulous relationships with people their own age. I also know some who have been abused. I just wish if anything that this person wrote his story a bit less preechy and a bit more about the meat of his story which is that your sex is not your identity, it's just sex, and it's not as fulfilling as spirituality which includes so much more about how you treat other people. You can be a great rabbi/scholar/philanthropist, if you go to Tel Aviv at night to sleep with Russian sex slaves you have to think about how great you really are and if you need to do teshuva. Gay or straight. You can be normal, and good in the eyes of god and still be truly in love with a person of your own sex. In fact, that type of true, loyal, and kind love between anyone is what makes this world worth while.

(50)
Raz Pesher,
October 5, 2008 10:57 AM

You are a brave man.

Thank you for sharing a part of your journey.I cannot imagine the courage you have had to call on through the various stages you have gone through. Congratulations on standing up for yourself! It takes a brave person to make decisions and an even braver person to realize the decision was not right for them and be open about it. Raz Pesher

(49)
Sam,
October 5, 2008 10:51 AM

Thank you Aish!

Thank you Aish showing this article, i feel somehow identified with the author and it made me feel different willing to overcome my problem.

Thanks!

(48)
Joe Kort,
October 5, 2008 10:28 AM

Being gay is not a choice!

I am a gay Jewish man and have authored several books about gay identity. I am also a psychotherapist and have sat with many people struggling with homosexuality.
David, you are like so many men and women I have treat for whom living as an openly gay or lesbian person would be more harmful to you than staying closeted and living a heterosexual life.
I have supported those men and women to do as you have done--to go forward heterosexually and keep their sexual orientation at bay given the struggle it provides them.
However, I hope you also see that the truth for many of the others who are struggling with SSA is that they truly are gay and lesbian and living in congruence with who they really are *is* the right way to live.
A broad brush painted over how others *should* live their lives is always frought with danger and problems.
I hope an article from AISH comes out about gay and lesbian Jews who are Orthodox (I know many), or otherwise and how both being gay and Jewish is being Twice Blessed.
It is for me.
Warmly, Joe Kort

(47)
Dan,
October 5, 2008 10:28 AM

Thanks for the honesty

Thanks so much to David for the honest and open discussion of his journey, to Aish for the courage to publish his account and provide an open forum to discussion, and also to those who have written such thoughtful and respectful comments. The seriousness and honest respect being shown to this issue and to all the people involved is an impressive Kiddush Hashem.

(46)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 10:22 AM

CLEAR CONCISE AND HUGE

I AM VERY IMPRESSED WITH THE ARTICLE AND WITH THE COMMENT AND BEHAVIOUR OF ANONYMOUS #37. THESE TWO SEEM TO BE HONEST WITH THEMSELVES AND THEREFORE WITH THE WORLD...WHAT MORE CAN ONE ASK? BLESS YOU BOTH. BEST WISHES FOR A HAPPY HEALTHY SWEET YEAR.

(45)
Marc,
October 5, 2008 10:17 AM

You've got to be kidding!

I'm embarrassed that Aish would publish this rhetoric! For a people who are known for their intellect and open mindedness, this is a real throw back isn't it!
My friend you were never gay, you had other issues or struggles and you have gotten your deep need for a male role model confused with your sexuality.
It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the connection from genetics to homosexuality. If it wasn't genetic, there would be much fewer numbers. Just look at may aspects of homosexuality and you can clearly see it's not a choice.
At anyrate it doesn't matter because this kind of article is an insult to my intelligence and an insult to mankind itself.
The world, especially Jews, need to pave the way for a basic fundamental understanding of the fact that there are many types of people.
All people must be accepted into the community as complete individuals, not needing to change anything about themselves.
Until this happens articles like this are just an example of fear and loathing against something that will NEVER go away, because it is part of the human condition!

(44)
Holly Wolf,
October 5, 2008 10:08 AM

you can be gay and observant

There are lots of friends of mine who are gay and observant - - being both is not contradictory. Yes, there are folks who change their sexual preferences, but that doesn't deny that being gay is in fact one of the myriad of human ways of being in this world, being an observant Jew and gay is certainly one way of being a Jewish human.

(43)
Scott B,
October 5, 2008 10:02 AM

Straight and CrookedPath

I'm happy that David has found peace but sadly based upon my experience with a gay brother and other gays, it is a peace that will not last. Observant or not, everyone has to be honest with themselves as they travel on their path to spirituality and David has chosed to deny who he his. My father was a strong, attentive, observant Jewish role model for my brother and I. I am straight, he is not. Within the gay community-there are perversions and deviations and fetishes just like there are in the straight community. The evil spirit threatens all of us. My brother used to tell me the stories of the gay Hasids sneaking into the gay movie theaters on 42nd street in the 1980's. It was well known. Did all of these men have distant fathers? While we should do everything to teach against sexual experimentation and deviations, lets not put our heads in the ground and tell gay girls and boys that they must deny who they are before they find Torah and Hashem. David is gay, will always be gay and sooner or later, he, his wife and his children will be forced to deal with it.

(42)
EMW,
October 5, 2008 9:59 AM

you have got to be kidding me

I would love for you to come to my school and tell my very happily gay prof. who has been a professional opera singer and ballet dancer and has a husband of some 12 years and two children that he just needs to "get in touch" with himself. Really, I would. And make sure to give me warning, so that I can get front row seats with my big tub of popcorn.
While it can be true that a person can turn to the same gender (the idea of which is a man-made construct, anyway), very rarely will a person who is biologically heterosexual stay there. So you were identifying as a homosexual because of a crappy childhood. I know many homosexuals who are gay because OMG, they're GAY! You apparently, were an interloper.

(41)
Caleb,
October 5, 2008 9:55 AM

Wow! This is a very important subject and you gave such insightful comments and information about homosexuals. I believe Jews and non-Jews must act on this issue together and yet again another true Jewish org. "Jonah" leads the way.

(40)
Shabse,
October 5, 2008 9:39 AM

The truth will set you free

First, I stand out of respect to David and to Aish.com for bringing this issue "out of the closet." There are many who struggle with this issue and the power of correct information is something strugglers need and deserve.

Second, JONAH has been a pathway to life for many strugglers. Its website, JONAHWEB.org is an important resource and contains many additional articles from those who are the path David so eloquently describes. For the SSA struggler, it is a great beginning point.

Third, and paramount, is that we always need to keep in mind that we live in a world that bombards us daily with falsehood. Ever since the serpent convinced Eve to eat the forbidden fruit by painting an attractive, but false, picture of what life would be like if we indulge in the forbidden, we human beings have been subject to misinterpreting the world around us. We THINK we are in control and can determine "good from evil" and we THINK we know better than G-d. For SSA strugglers, that falsehood took the form of an impulsive sexuality that was a mask for what we truly strive for - to be MEN.

Now, in our struggle, we are finding that that power of free choice to do what is RIGHT is within us, once we strip away the falsehoods that are fed to us by the media, by popular culture and, sad to say, by ourselves.

David points out, and correctly so, that the Triadic family is a common theme in the life story of many SSA men. Another factor common to many SSA men is a heightened sensitivity - to emotions, to the needs of others, to the arts, and so on. (Again these are common factors, not necesarily universal). That sensitivity, which may have enabled the SSA to begin with, may be the same strength that enables the struggler to eventually see the truth: He/she is a handiwork of the Almighty. Being such a holy being, s/he has a job to do in seeing past the falsehoods and fulfilling his *or* her life''s mission of sanctifying the name of G-d.

(39)
Liberalsky,
October 5, 2008 9:33 AM

Be Strong

Thanks for being brave enough to speak the truth. The time for someone to speak honestly and not selfishly- is long overdue. As an educator I tell my students that we Torah Observant Jews do not hate anyone and certainly do not sanction unprovoked violence against gays, *or* anyone for that matter. Nevertheless, I refuse to say that the gay lifestyle is simply another "alternative lifestyle".

Quite honestly- I really do not want to know what people are doing in their bedroom REGARDLESS of whether they are straight, gay, *or* whatever. In graduate school I knew a few guys that were gay and they knew that I did not approve- but they never asked for my opinion and I really wasn''t interested in their bedroom. There is such a thing as TMI (Too Much Information) and certain information need not be open to the public. Likewise I tell my students that unless their sexuality is causing a classroom disruption (*or* if I suspect abuse)- leave your bedroom in the bedroom and do not make it public information.

For a better understanding of this subject, I recommend Rabbi Manis Friedman''s book "Doesn''t Anyone Blush Anymore?".

(38)
Ari,
October 5, 2008 9:13 AM

insightful and powerful (ctd)

Thank you so much for your insightful and powerful post, David. I''ve struggled with this issue myself for years (see my story in comment 36). What an inspiring account!

To all the doubters, both observant and non-observant: change is possible! You owe to yourself a chance at a normal, happy, fulfilled life. Contact JONAH and they''ll show you how to get started.

You''ve heard lies, you''ve heard propaganda, you''ve heard about "praying it away" and other bogus, psychiatrically unsound approaches. How about trying something that''s worked and continues to work for hundreds of men, including myself?

(37)
Anonymous,
October 5, 2008 7:35 AM

A Different Path to Teshuvah

I wasn''t going to post a comment when I first saw this, but after receiving an email from another well meaning relative with a link to this article, I decided I should.
With all due respect to David, there is another path to teshuva for the gay man - and one that doesn''t involve risking the happiness of a woman. I am gay and I am observant. For me teshuva means accepting that like many other people G-d has created me with an inability to function on one area. For the handicapped person this area is walking, for me it is being married. It puzzles and frustrates me why the frum world insists that homosexuality must be ''fixed''. There is a mitzvah in the Torah prohibiting a certain action - a mitzvah I strive to keep.
But that mitzvah is one between man and G-d.
The only way to test the ''cure'' for homosexuality is on the back of another person, a woman, who even if she is informed up front of what she is getting into (and I know of many Rabbis who advise not to tell), doesn''t really know until she experiences it.
Maybe the teshuva lies in accepting the place Hashem gave us in the world and decided that no matter how painful and lonely it may be, to never risk another person''s well being in the quest for a cure.
That''s what I try to do when I politely decline yet another person''s well meaning suggestion for a shidduch.

(36)
Ari,
October 5, 2008 7:15 AM

insightful and powerful

www.narth.com/docs/talks.html

(35)
Geo Uri Kozmos Klein,
October 5, 2008 6:07 AM

I have similar positive experiences

I also had a rebellious youth including exploring some samesex lifestyle scenes but when I realized that it is "only" a fathering deficit" I slowly disengaged and I found a great support in Torah learning (and also in JONAH). For a while I made matters undecided since I could not diminish the remaining cravings but slowly I discoivered techniques to get regular male acceptance and touch non-erotically and by a coincidence I found out that my wheat-less diet helps also to diminish my cravings (maybe because wheat contains opiates and some, like me, are allergic to it), so my marriage (w two children) got better. I do not doubt that some people manage to live a balanced life based on their samesex feelings (and maybe they even try to keep many mitzvot), that is wonderful, as a comment here says. But we, the minority who for some reason has transitioned towards a hetero life, we also exist and it is clear that some of us are not "genetically" predisposed but were traumatized in childhood, so the attempt in mainstream pluralist-atheist culture to sentence us to silence may be hurtful for everybody. Why? Because many trauma-generated "samesex" strugglers are using repression to fight this unwanted compulsion and they are the rank and file of many paternalistic and "fascist" or "Nazi" groups that abound now in Eastern Europe again. Anyway I wanted to comment on this article to stress the importance of the possibility of recovery (or if this word hurts some), or simply: of transition.

(34)
Anonymous,
October 4, 2008 11:28 PM

Thanks for discussing such a hard subject

As a friend of a girl who left observant lifestyle of many years because she felt she wasn't being true to herself going on shidduchim with men I appreciate Aish discussing this hard subject that is often swept under the rug. This is a difficult and a very real issue.

(33)
Anonymous,
October 4, 2008 10:56 PM

I gave up the fight... but

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I am happy and proud for you, although not envious. I respect your opinions and your story because YOU WERE THERE and YOU KNOW FIRST HAND what you are talking about. All these other rabbis, etc. who have never experienced this kind of nesayon have NO RIGHT to open their mouths and pontificate against gay people. I would caution gay men against marrying women unless they share with them their problems beforehand.

(32)
Anonymous,
October 4, 2008 9:37 PM

confused

Thank you so much for this wonderful insight. I myself have 2 good friends who are gay. One is in a wonderful loving relationship and just got married and the other is still searching and is very promiscuous. They often share their feelings with me. Because I love and respect them so much I want them to be happy with whoever they feel the love towards. And I truly don’t care if it is a gay relationship. However, I do feel like a bad Jew considering that the Torah states straight out that man can not sleep with other men. I feel that I am a bad friend encouraging their relationships and discouraging them to. How do you square that? Would I encourage my friend to eat not kosher food just because they like it?

(31)
Avi,
October 4, 2008 8:34 PM

A "gay" synagogue is no different from a synagogue in which the majority of the people break shabbat, or eat non-kosher. There is no such thing as a Torah-observant "gay" person. It is like saying: "I keep the Torah... but pass the bacon".
The Torah is explicit in saying that homosexual activity is an abomination. It is not a matter of interpretation. There is not one gadol who believes that shichvat zachar is acceptable. Claiming that people were created "gay" is a farce. The Merciful G-d is not cruel with His creatures. He wold not create them in a way that is in complete opposition to His Torah.
I pray that Hashem will bring all of the His lost sons, be they lost in homosexuality, or any other sin, home. May all of Am Yisrael be written in the Book of Life.

(30)
Sharon,
October 4, 2008 2:13 PM

Excellent article, once again I applaud aish for their courage to publish a article on this sensitive issue in time of political correctness

David, you just took it straight to the point. We share allot in common, also I choose to look beyond my feeling and asked myself 'where did they come from?' to realize that my homosexual feelings grew out of destructive relations with Men and Women in my early childhood. Change is really possible, I experienced it.
A big thanks to Aish for their courage to allow a article with this 'political incorrect' topic.
I would be glad to see more of that in the future... .
Shavua tov!

(29)
A,
October 4, 2008 12:28 PM

to those who disagree - this stuff's deeper than society is willing to admit

To Mark - it is VERY possible for someone who has never experienced opposite-sex attractions to develop them. I say it because I did. I used to have same-sex attraction as the absolute norm, but now I can turn it on and off, switch to opposite-sex attraction usually at will. I'm working on making OSA the default.
To the person who thinks that "homosexuals can be observant Jews", they're observing something, but what they are observing is not time-tested, authentic rabbinic Judaism. I hear that the Lesbian rabbi looks super happy with her partner - but you don't see deeply into her heart. In Hollywood such sentiments are reserved for the movie screen and for the therapy room, but when we look at real people, we tend to look superficially. I say this because I grew up in the neighborhood.
To the person who thinks people are born gay - it's just plain BS. There's not enough scientific evidence to substantiate the claim, but there is plenty of evidence to support the claim that early-childhood relationships almost always play a crucial role.
To Jeremiah, contact JONAH and they'll help you out.
In short - "gay" is the term our society has assigned to a phenomenon much more complex and painful than the society is willing to admit. If you really want to understand it, look deeply and sensitively - and I mean REALLY deeply - into the hearts of those who have it. If you've got it, look deeply, patiently and honestly into your heart - literally, the actual physical sensations you have in your chest, rather than the images Hollywood has sold you.
Blessings to David on this piece that is SO important... Thank you for your candor and courage.
Blessings to all for a healthy, wonderful year.

(28)
beryl,
October 3, 2008 11:53 AM

response to Anonymous #9

1)Each child in a family has different needs. It is possible that one child's needs are met in a family and another's are not. 2)What is your source for the 4% statistic you site? 3)As human beings/Jews with souls that are on lend from G-d, why should we equate ourselves with animals who lack this higher soul, and mimick their "animalistic" ways? 4)Stating that there are husbands who are gay and are therefore not fulfilling their wives' needs is completely missing the point of the article. David's article is making the point that these husbands would be well served to face their deficiencies straight on by taking an honest look at themselves and then by getting to the root of their dysfunctional behavior. They mistreat their wives' due to personal dificiencies, not due to being gay as you say.

(27)
smb,
October 3, 2008 11:53 AM

the human mission

Some people wonder "How can G-d create a person a certain way and then forbid him from acting on his instincts"
We all have challenges we face. Some challenges are big and very hard, and some are smaller and easier. But none of them are Impossible. G-d gave us free choice. We can either go with our impulse or tendency, or rise above it. Our mission is to rise above, so we can reach our potential. For example, someone might have an impulse to lose their temper if someone else really angers them. Eventhough they have this tendency, they can do something about it by choosing to control their temper, and rising above it. or someone might tend to gossip all the time about people. Their job is to overcome that and guard their tounge. It's possible for a person to change. In fact it is our mission so we can grow and reach our potential.

(26)
Anonymous,
October 3, 2008 11:34 AM

PLEASE get more information out to our rabbis and others. My wonderful son "came out"2 years ago and most of the help has come from Focus on the Family, a Christian group.Parents feel so alone going thur this.

(25)
Andy,
October 3, 2008 7:59 AM

can undersatnd both philip and author make good points

i am not gay and no expert but i do know gay men and i would agree with the author that for the vast majority being gay is a result of a damaged childhood. i also agree with philip that changing to being straight is not a realistic option for most. i would not want a daughter to take a chance marrying a man who struggles with this problem although if she insisted i'd give my blessing. i think it all comes down to how seriously one takes the Torah prohibition against lying with a man as with a woman, and if one believes as does Philip it is subject to any interpretation which may allow for leniency. as the punishment is a capital one it's hard for me to see how one can permit homosexual relations within the confines of halacha but i may be mistaken.

(24)
Sara Yoheved Rigler,
October 3, 2008 7:11 AM

Bravo to "David," not just for the tremendous article, but for the long struggle with self that is its content. Would that all of us would fight our negative instincts as valiantly. Anger, jealousy, lying are also tendencies that feel as immutable as our skin. I am inspired by your example in fighting to become your best self.

(23)
Eliav,
October 3, 2008 6:39 AM

Thank you

Thank you for a thought provoking, well written, insightful and courageous article. I hope that it will help many others who are facing challenges in their lives, be them of this nature or of any other type.

(22)
Jake,
October 3, 2008 4:59 AM

Philip you're mistaken

First of all i applaud aish.com for having the courage to present this insightful, thought provoking article. we so rarely get to hear this perspective. Change is possible, although very difficult, and I found david's journey honest and inspiring.
Philp, i cast no judgments, we all have our challenges. I believe there would be many more men who would struggle to overcome their same sex attraction if it wasn't for the barrage of media and plotical correct sentiment telling them that they cannot do it. As a society we have been conditioned by many political forces that obstruct the healthy Torah perspective that change is possible. There are many more davids than you think. Lastly, one cannot interpret the torah any way one sees fit. That would render the Torah meaningless. Just as chess has its set of rules, so does Torah. The torah is explicit about prohibiting homosexual acts. For the believing Jew, this must be dealt with. Don't justify your actions but distorting the Torah. If you don't want to play by the rules -- fine, admit that. But don't pretend you're playing chess when in fact you've turn it into a different game entirely.

(21)
Sarah Shapiro,
October 3, 2008 3:35 AM

educational and enlightening

I appreciate aish.com's courage in publishing an educational,enlightening article.

(20)
Philip,
October 3, 2008 3:20 AM

Philip

I find it surprising that David will be able to maintain a heterosexual lifestyle and remain monogamous with his wife in the future. I do not judge him *or* myself. I only have concern with gay jews that have left the faith and are not observant. The Torah is subject to interpretation, we have been doing that for thousands of years, commenting and giving our interpretations of text. I do not lie with a woman as I do with a man, I like very differently! I seriously don''t think I could be with a woman if I tried. David''s result of "becoming straight" is very unusual and not the norm. The percentages of gay jewish males that are able to do this are very very small. It is important to be observant regardless of sexual orientation. If the torah is subject to interpretation, which it is, then the "orthodox fundamentalist" interpretation, of which it is only one interpretation is strictly that, an interpretation. This is from someone who is going to start a family with another man.

Anonymous,
September 10, 2015 12:26 PM

You are forgetting the 'B' in LGBT

It may be true that not every gay man can learn to bond with a woman by resolving his issues of masculinity and masculine bonding. But you are forgetting the 'B'. There are a considerable number of men who are bisexual and are attracted to women as well as men. According to recent polls, probably a considerably higher percentage than those who identify as 100% gay. Perhaps David is one of them, I don't know. They want to marry or to remain married to a woman while being faithful to her and not straying after same-sex relationships. Programs and professional help must be in place to help such people.

(19)
Mati,
October 3, 2008 1:11 AM

Finding comfort despite others.

As a gay man myself, I too struggled within my own skin based on my sexuality... not an easy road. I desperately wanted to find answers but came up short, then I began reading the Torah. No longer consumed with vanity and other idle paths, I found the comfort I always needed, why didn't I look here first? Homosexuality and religion were two ideas never to combine, so I stayed away, but I now beg to differ. The article was moving and comforting. Thank you, Mati.

(18)
Anonymous,
October 3, 2008 12:26 AM

Homosexuals can be observant Jews

I belong to a "gay" synagogue, in which about 80% of the congregants are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender. We have couples, both men and women, who have been in loving committed relationships for 10, 20, up to 50 years who belong to our congregation. The rabbi is a lesbian who has been married (by a rabbi) to her wife for about 20 years. They are the epitome of a loving married couple. We do a lot of Torah study, Talmud study, and Tikun Olam as a congregation. Being homosexual does not prevent one from being an observant Jew. Unfortunately, some congregations are not welcoming to all of God's children who come to worship and study. Therefore we have congregants who were raised Reform, Conservative and Orthodox in our Reform congregation. They have no where else to go to be accepted as God made them.
Yes, there are those in the gay community who are promiscuous and focused on superficial things, just like in the straight world. That doesn't mean it applies to all of us.

(17)
Jeremiah,
October 3, 2008 12:17 AM

seattle resident

god help me, this is inspiring but i feel helpless still.

(16)
Anonymous,
October 2, 2008 7:24 PM

I am so grateful to see this article. As a woman who has stuggled with this same issue, I am deeply encouraged by David's brave and direct willingness to deal with what is a difficult and devisive topic. I too, am in the process of renewing my dedication to Hashem's will in my own life through Teshuva, and am working to heal and find hope in what has been a long and complicated journey. David has identified so many important points in this article,but the most important for me is that meaningful personal change is possible. One can grow, confront,and find new spiritual paths if they look at themselves honestly and search for Hashem's will in their lives. Thank you David.....

(15)
Anonymous,
October 2, 2008 3:06 PM

Thank you for this

Certainly a lot to think about. Thank you for sharing your story, and God bless.

(14)
S,
October 2, 2008 2:44 PM

Yasher Koach :)

Excellent article.
I'm sorry to hear about your father not being there for you. But I'm glad you eventually found what you need in healthy friendships and role models. It must have a very hard struggle for you to find to this path. But as the saying goes, where there's a will, there's a way. Yashar koach and hatzlacha :)

(13)
Mark,
October 2, 2008 2:42 PM

The big thing to notice is that not once does the word "woman" appear in this article. Living alone and suppressing the desire for men is one thing. But being attracted to men is only half the issue of homosexuality. The other half is the lack of attraction to women. And that is hard to force.
The Jonah website says it's "Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality." Yet the alternatives don't include making a gay man attracted to women. That's because it's impossible.
Do we really want to teach gay men to fake a marriage to an unsuspecting girl? Do you think "David"'s wife would be fine with knowing his past? I think not...

(12)
Braha,
October 2, 2008 1:53 PM

Thank You, David

David,
Your article moved me deeply. You describe a struggle not only with the challenges you faced from within, but with the powerful, seductive call of a dominant global movement.
The world of gay pride promised not only to free you from the rigors of your struggle but to coronate you with a hero's status for giving in to the misdirected yearnings you were struggling with. What a hero you are for seeing past those claims!
If you had overcome your inner challenges with the support of every commercial, every magazine, every university, every voice and face in your country and around the world, you would still be more than worthy of our admiration. Your inner struggles were difficult enough! If you had met them despite the efforts of a powerful few to subvert your battles, you would still be an extraordinary inspiration. You, however, stood against an entire world.
You saw through it even though you yourself would have been the bearer of that world's trophies. To see through it even as a layman is difficult enough. I can only imagine how difficult it was for you.
I hope people really appreciate what you overcame, from without if not from within. We are all victims of a media empire that cuts straight to the quick of our ugliest desires and glorifies our most shameful potentials. You and your story stand in eloquent testimony to the power of every human being to delve deeper within, to see past the false promises within and without, and to choose greatness. These words don't suffice to express my admiration.

(11)
leah,
October 2, 2008 1:42 PM

a very sensitive and special article

A great article on a difficult topic most of us know actually very little about. I think David is accomplishing heroic things. On his quest to heal and re-shape his past, he is defeating the yetzer hara in great proportion. Who knows what great merit this may give our entire world at this time?

(10)
LB,
October 2, 2008 1:13 PM

Incredible Courage, Bravo!

It is so beautiful to see the accounts of a person's real struggle, and the candid observations he makes! Thanks for "Coming Out!"

(9)
Anonymous,
October 2, 2008 12:59 PM

I'm sorry, but I think there are also people who are naturally gay.

If David was only having homosexual relationships because he was trying to make up for the way he was raised, then I'm glad that he has healed from that and moved on. But I do believe that there are many people who were simply born gay. For example, it is quite common for only one child out of several to be gay, even though they were raised in the same family, and the percentage of people who are gay has held pretty consistently through history at about 4%. In addition, scientists have documented homosexual relationships in many species, from primates to birds. Finally, there are many women who are suffering loveless marriages to men who can't love them because they are gay. These women deserve a chance to find a man with the capacity to desire them rather than remaining trapped with a man who never will. So I don't know if you'll print this, but I hope you do. What I am writing is not anti-Torah, but simply in favor of loving every Jew as G-d made him rather than trying to make him live as something he's not.

(8)
Anonymous,
October 2, 2008 12:51 PM

interesting

This subject has always troubled me ideologically. How can G-d create a person a certain way and then forbid him from acting on his instincts.
After reading this I am reminded of the many women who are only attracted to men who treat them terribly. And this certainly does not result in long term happiness. This behavior stems from poor self esteem and can only be rememdied when recognized and worked on.

(7)
Elaine Silodor Berk,
October 2, 2008 11:33 AM

Co-Director of JONAH thanks AISH & David

To AISH, my heartfelt thanks for giving David an opportunity to tell the world about a group of men and women who are being severely discriminated against - those who are unhappy feeling same-sex attraction (SSA). Current pseudo-wisdom is telling youngsters who feel SSA that they have no choice but to "follow their hearts" and become gay or lesbian, although there are no valid, realiable studies that show anyone is born gay. As David sensitively explains, unwanted SSA results from childhood and adolescent wounds that can be dealt with and ameliorated. The world-wide Jewish community has not offered any help to Jews who do not want to be gay. Let's hope this article is the beginning of a Jewish outreach to those in pain who need our help. Contact JONAH at www.jonahweb.org to learn more about our programs.

(6)
Regina,
October 2, 2008 11:16 AM

Very brave article to write

Popular culture never talks about gay issues like this.

(5)
Shoshana,
October 2, 2008 10:40 AM

Thank you for sharing

Thank you so much for addressing such an important topic with unique insight and sensitivity. Your story of personal growth is helpful not only those who are struggling with homosexuality but to anyone who wants to break out of unhealthy patterns. May your message be heard and received by all those who need it!

(4)
Shaul,
October 2, 2008 10:35 AM

Hope the frum world really absorbs the message

Thank you AISH.com for publishing this. I am also a guy who has struggled for years with same-sex attraction. I have found a lot of support in the Orthodox world - very often sensitive Rabbis, friends who listen & care. I only hope the understanding of homosexuality will grow in the frum world - for at least two reasons: in order to help young people when they are confused about sexuality (or are NOT confused and are convinced they are "gay) and wondering if Judaism really has an answer for them. Also, there is ignorance about homosexuality, so I have found some frum folks just think it begins & ends with the "gay" parade in Israel!
Anyway...I hope many read this & I hope there is growing support in the Torah world for people who want to grow out of homsexuality.

(3)
Robert,
October 2, 2008 9:39 AM

Disfunctional Family

I am a fther of 3 Boys Now Grown men .
I went thru a very painful divorece and rasied my sons as a single father, One of My sons is in the gay world , until this past year 5768 and studing the Torah online did I find the answer as parent In Parsha Netzavim in the article by Rab E Hoffmann Where Torah and Life Meet, Yhe Section of Parshas ha Tesuhva (30:1-6)Hashem will circmsice
our hearts and that of our children
( Breachos 33b)As Parent I I Now Have abslout faith that HAshem Has Prepared a Path back Home for all souls , I Found it a great encouragement from your Article That there is a "Straight Path Home" for every parent out there with questions and uncertainty , Hashem has called us to Holiness Our sons will Hear the SoFar
Netzavim
Netzavim

(2)
malka,
October 2, 2008 9:16 AM

WHEN IS THE BOOK COMING OUT?

So brave...to open your neshuma like that, THANK-you.Your "journey to the center of the earth" is something that I can relate to-altho my issue isn't the same--Your devotion to healing yourself is the gift we get from our Beloved Hashem-in my case,my journey is called "Jewish Root canal"-and I am still in the process--Much Nachas "David" and WRITE THAT BOOK!!!

(1)
J,
October 2, 2008 3:55 AM

Tough topic, thanks

A while ago I write a letter to aish asking that they publish articles about this topic. There is so much one-sided discussion about this issue in the non-Jewish world, yet I am often left perplexed and doubtful about the proper Jewish approach. I thank the brave author for daring to share his story with us, and demonstrating the Jewish ideal of "breaking one's nature" that our mussar works teach us about. Surely all readers understand the risk in speaking this way in public in the West, though. Compassion leads to many, many to legitimize homosexuality today, and yet the Jew always stands on the other side, unchanged, holding steadfast to ancient values with compassion but insistence on the truth. May Hashem help all of us out of our own pits of self-destruction and set us on the right path of teshuva to be sealed for a sweet year of life and happy occasions! And may "David" see much naches from his children!

This year during Chanukah I will be on a wilderness survival trip, and it will be very difficult to properly celebrate the holiday. I certainty won't be able to bring along a Menorah.

So if I am going to celebrate only one day of Chanukah, which is the most significant?

The Aish Rabbi Replies:

If a person can only celebrate one day of Chanukah, he should celebrate the first day.

This is similar to a case where a person is in prison, and the authorities agree to permit him to go to synagogue one day. The law is that he should go at the first opportunity, and not wait for a more important day like the High Holidays.

The reason is because one should not allow the opportunity of a mitzvah to pass. Moreover, it is quite conceivable that circumstances will later change and allow for additional observance. Therefore, we do not let the first chance pass. (Sources: Code of Jewish Law OC 90, Mishnah Berurah 28.)

As an important aside, Chanukah candles must be lit in (or at the entrance to) a home rather than out of doors. Thus, you should not light in actual "wilderness," but only after you've pitched your tent for the night.

There may be another reason why the first night is the one to focus on. Chanukah is celebrated for eight days to commemorate the one-day supply of oil that miraculously burned for eight days. But if you think about it, since there was enough oil to burn naturally for one night, nothing miraculous happened on that first night! So why shouldn't Chanukah be just seven days?!

There are many wonderful answers given to this question, highlighting the special aspect of the first day. Here are a few:

1) True, the miracle of the oil did not begin until the second day, and lasted for only seven days. But the Sages designated the first day of Chanukah in commemoration of the miraculous military victory.

2) Having returned to the Temple and found it in shambles, the Jews had no logical reason to think they would find any pure oil. The fact that the Maccabees didn't give up hope, and then actually found any pure oil at all, is in itself a miracle.

3) The Sages chose Chanukah, a festival that revolves around oil's ability to burn, as the time to teach the fundamental truth that even so-called "natural" events take place only because God wants them to.

The Talmudic Sage Rabbi Chanina Ben Dosa expressed this truth in explaining a miracle that occurred in his own home. Once, his daughter realized that she had lit the Shabbos candles with vinegar instead of oil. Rabbi Chanina calmed her, saying, "Why are you concerned! The One Who commanded oil to burn, can also command vinegar to burn!" The Talmud goes on to say that those Shabbos lights burned bright for many hours (Taanit 25a).

To drive this truth home, the Sages decreed that Chanukah be observed for eight days: The last seven to commemorate the miracle of the Menorah, and the first to remind us that even the “normal” burning of oil is only in obedience to God's wish.

In closing, I'm not sure what's stopping you from celebrating more than one day? At a minimum, you can light one candle sometime during the evening, and that fulfills the mitzvah of Chanukah - no “official Menorah” necessary. With so much joy to be had, why limit yourself to one night only?!

In 165 BCE, the Maccabees defeated the Greek army and rededicated the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Finding only one jar of pure oil, they lit the Menorah, which miraculously burned for eight days. Also on this day -- 1,100 years earlier -- Moses and the Jewish people completed construction of the Tabernacle, the portable sanctuary that accompanied them during 40 years of wandering in the desert. The Tabernacle was not dedicated, however, for another three months; tradition says that the day of Kislev 25 was then "compensated" centuries later -- when the miracle of Chanukah occurred and the Temple was rededicated. Today, Jews around the world light a Chanukah menorah, to commemorate the miracle of the oil, and its message that continues to illuminate our lives today.

A person who utilizes suffering to arouse himself in spiritual matters will find consolation. He will recognize that even though the suffering was difficult for him, it nevertheless helped him for eternity.

When you see yourself growing spiritually through your suffering, you will even be able to feel joy because of that suffering.

They established these eight days of Chanukah to give thanks and praise to Your great Name(Siddur).

Jewish history is replete with miracles that transcend the miracle of the Menorah. Why is the latter so prominently celebrated while the others are relegated to relative obscurity?

Perhaps the reason is that most other miracles were Divinely initiated; i.e. God intervened to suspend the laws of nature in order to save His people from calamity.

The miracle of the Menorah was something different. Having defeated the Seleucid Greek invaders, the triumphant Jews entered the Sanctuary. There they found that they could light the Menorah for only one day, due to a lack of undefiled oil. Further, they had no chance of replenishing the supply for eight days. They did light the Menorah anyway, reasoning that it was best to do what was within their ability to do and to postpone worrying about the next day until such worry was appropriate. This decision elicited a Divine response and the Menorah stayed lit for that day and for seven more.

This miracle was thus initiated by the Jews themselves, and the incident was set down as a teaching for all future generations: concentrate your efforts on what you can do, and do it! Leave the rest to God.

While even our best and most sincere efforts do not necessarily bring about miracles, the teaching is nevertheless valid. Even the likelihood of failure in the future should not discourage us from any constructive action that we can take now.

Today I shall...

focus my attention on what it is that I can do now, and do it to the best of my ability.

With stories and insights,
Rabbi Twerski's new book Twerski on Machzor makes Rosh Hashanah prayers more meaningful. Click here to order...