My question is; what guarantee, warranty and/or support can I expect from AP/Stillen if this BBK overheats (melts components like dust boot seals) and fails to meet my aforementioned expectations ??

While no aftermarket brake company will "guarantee" their components can never be overheated (you or I could kill any of them in less than 30 minutes if either of us was immature enough to want to do so), major manufacturers with a long history and a solid reputation will stand behind their product. It is no different with these. The great thing about choosing a manufacturer who is dominant in racing, some of the new developments do make it into the aftermarket parts. For one example, the seal materials now used in the AP Racing road calipers are the same as what was used in professional racing just 5 years ago. Also, AP Racing supplies many OE manufacturers, so they are very familiar with concerns over warranty claims. They have been around that block many, many times.

All that said, I have seen very little in the way of "cooked" components over the years, especially over the last 3 years. Most of which were related to incorrectly adjusted brake pedal or master cylinders, pad fitment problems or installation issues. The rare cases which were related to manufacturing or quality issues were resolved -- after all, nobody is perfect. That doesn't mean someone can't cook these, but there is sufficient thermal capacity to handle serious track days without worry. Aside from that, I am very comfortable in having you get feedback from people already using them as opposed to relying on what I'm telling you.

You might also consider AP Racing PRF if you are concerned about extreme temperature performance. This is a fluid used by many teams in NASCAR Sprint Cup, the highest sustained temperature application for iron rotors on the planet. No, they aren't M3's, but with 3500 lbs., 750+HP and only 15" wheels and skinny 9" tires, those hippos on roller skates can sure burn up brakes!

PRF is known to have a slightly lower boiling point than SRF, but the recovery is much better if it ever does boil (about 95% vs. about 70%). This means is doesn't completely go to crap in the unusual event it does boil. It lists for $29.99/500mL bottle, but you can probably find it for less from forum vendors.

How much brake fluid is required for the E90/E92 M3? Is there a shelf life?

It takes about 2-1/2 500mL bottles. Shelf life of an unopened bottle is indefinite. I wouldn't use an opened bottle again after a few days as the fluid starts to absorb moisture from the atmosphere. Quality brake fluid is packaged and sealed in an inert dry nitrogen atmosphere. The cheap stuff is packaged in air (not good!).

Chris, is AP part of Brembo? I thought I read somewhere AP is under the Brembo umbrella now???

Thanks for the good info here.

.

__________________

Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

Chris, is AP part of Brembo? I thought I read somewhere AP is under the Brembo umbrella now???

Thanks for the good info here.

The ownership of Brembo purchased AP Racing back in 1999 to avoid its hostile takeover by another family member. It is a long story that should be told over a few beers as it includes money, women, power and a very well-known German sports car manufacturer. Maybe they will write a book about it some day!

Today, both brands still run completely separately (AP being based in the UK and Brembo in Italy). They both compete, but have to answer to the same guy at the end of the day. Essentially, the customers of both companies benefit as neither can sit on their laurels.

The way it tends to work is that Brembo is more set up for higher volume manufacturing (think: Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Porsche, GM, Chrysler, BMW, plus Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc.), plus their solid racing programs. AP Racing is either top-level racing (F1, NASCAR, LeMans, Daytona Prototypes, FIA GT, SuperGT and so on) or limited-production supercars such as Bugatti, Gumpert, Lotus, McLaren, Spyker, Koenigsegg, Ultima, Noble, Rossion, Tramontana, Caparo, GTA, Pagani and a bunch more. The smaller manufacturers like the intimate engineering team that is equipped for more rapid response and custom-tailored programs.

Both companies make excellent equipment, but don't share much data at all. For their part, the Brembo group did end up with the leading manufacturer of racing clutches in the world, avoiding the cost of their own development program had they chosen to create one.

Sorry for the wordy (but very abbreviated) answer, but a simple "yes" does not really convey the essence of what transpired.

The ownership of Brembo purchased AP Racing back in 1999 to avoid its hostile takeover by another family member. It is a long story that should be told over a few beers as it includes money, women, power and a very well-known German sports car manufacturer. Maybe they will write a book about it some day!

Today, both brands still run completely separately (AP being based in the UK and Brembo in Italy). They both compete, but have to answer to the same guy at the end of the day. Essentially, the customers of both companies benefit as neither can sit on their laurels.

The way it tends to work is that Brembo is more set up for higher volume manufacturing (think: Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Porsche, GM, Chrysler, BMW, plus Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc.), plus their solid racing programs. AP Racing is either top-level racing (F1, NASCAR, LeMans, Daytona Prototypes, FIA GT, SuperGT and so on) or limited-production supercars such as Bugatti, Gumpert, Lotus, McLaren, Spyker, Koenigsegg, Ultima, Noble, Rossion, Tramontana, Caparo, GTA, Pagani and a bunch more. The smaller manufacturers like the intimate engineering team that is equipped for more rapid response and custom-tailored programs.

Both companies make excellent equipment, but don't share much data at all. For their part, the Brembo group did end up with the leading manufacturer of racing clutches in the world, avoiding the cost of their own development program had they chosen to create one.

Sorry for the wordy (but very abbreviated) answer, but a simple "yes" does not really convey the essence of what transpired.

The ownership of Brembo purchased AP Racing back in 1999 to avoid its hostile takeover by another family member. It is a long story that should be told over a few beers as it includes money, women, power and a very well-known German sports car manufacturer. Maybe they will write a book about it some day!

Today, both brands still run completely separately (AP being based in the UK and Brembo in Italy). They both compete, but have to answer to the same guy at the end of the day. Essentially, the customers of both companies benefit as neither can sit on their laurels.

The way it tends to work is that Brembo is more set up for higher volume manufacturing (think: Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Porsche, GM, Chrysler, BMW, plus Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc.), plus their solid racing programs. AP Racing is either top-level racing (F1, NASCAR, LeMans, Daytona Prototypes, FIA GT, SuperGT and so on) or limited-production supercars such as Bugatti, Gumpert, Lotus, McLaren, Spyker, Koenigsegg, Ultima, Noble, Rossion, Tramontana, Caparo, GTA, Pagani and a bunch more. The smaller manufacturers like the intimate engineering team that is equipped for more rapid response and custom-tailored programs.

Both companies make excellent equipment, but don't share much data at all. For their part, the Brembo group did end up with the leading manufacturer of racing clutches in the world, avoiding the cost of their own development program had they chosen to create one.

Sorry for the wordy (but very abbreviated) answer, but a simple "yes" does not really convey the essence of what transpired.

Chris

Thanks Chris. And the bold part above sounds interesting... if you have the time.
Also, didn't you guys also give them a lot of R&D on the ceramic rotors?

.

__________________

Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

Thanks Chris. And the bold part above sounds interesting... if you have the time.

I've probably said too much already...

Quote:

Originally Posted by aus

Also, didn't you guys also give them a lot of R&D on the ceramic rotors?

Yes. Stillen and AP Racing collaborated very closely on the CCM rotors for the Nissan R35 GT-R. AP has gained a lot of experience with CCM technology with Bugatti, McLaren, Lotus, GTA, Tramontana and others. The GT-R presented a few particular challenges that Stillen was able to help sort out. Proposed solutions were track tested and joint decisions were reached on final specifications. Stillen makes some of the components and AP makes the rest, short of actual carbon-ceramic rotor themselves (they are a joint effort with an advanced supplier). Should the M3 be next???

Certainly, and with quite a bit of success as well. I'm not sure how many wins, but AP has over 670 wins so far and counting (brakes and/or clutches). I've lost track of how many championships, so I guess I should look that up too!

What's the wet boiling point of the AP fluid?
I remember LMB saying it's the wet boiling point that determines how often you need to change your fluid.

__________________

Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

That is using the SAE J1704 test method (4% moisture). In reality, 4% is a heck of a lot of saturation, well beyond a 2-year change in a closed system.

The rule of thumb is a full flush every 2 years for a street vehicle. For track days, a quick flush after every event. I like to do a quick bleed the night before an event just to make sure what is in the caliper is fresh and any trapped air is out.

While no aftermarket brake company will "guarantee" their components can never be overheated (you or I could kill any of them in less than 30 minutes if either of us was immature enough to want to do so), major manufacturers with a long history and a solid reputation will stand behind their product. It is no different with these. The great thing about choosing a manufacturer who is dominant in racing, some of the new developments do make it into the aftermarket parts. For one example, the seal materials now used in the AP Racing road calipers are the same as what was used in professional racing just 5 years ago. Also, AP Racing supplies many OE manufacturers, so they are very familiar with concerns over warranty claims. They have been around that block many, many times.

All that said, I have seen very little in the way of "cooked" components over the years, especially over the last 3 years. Most of which were related to incorrectly adjusted brake pedal or master cylinders, pad fitment problems or installation issues. The rare cases which were related to manufacturing or quality issues were resolved -- after all, nobody is perfect. That doesn't mean someone can't cook these, but there is sufficient thermal capacity to handle serious track days without worry. Aside from that, I am very comfortable in having you get feedback from people already using them as opposed to relying on what I'm telling you.

There are plenty more as both of these shapes have been around for a while, so your favorite pad manufacturer can use these numbers to find a cross.

Chris

Thanks Chris,

Thanks for the info.
Local support means a great deal ---

I'm still on the fence between the StopTech Trophy 4-pot 355mm kit..... and yours
I had a chance to look @ the StopTech Trophy kit at the race track last weekend ... it was very impressive, super-lightweight & forged.
Your kit wins in the rotor size, rotor design & 2 extra pistons .......