<marcusb> ArneBab: but Neal and I were not happy with that alone. We were
looking for deeper improvements to the system, for, I think, sound
reasons. That is what brought us to the L4/Coyotos technologies
<marcusb> ArneBab: as you are writing a kernel in user space, you can still
do kernel improvements there
<marcusb> ArneBab: if you take it very far, you end up with a kernel that
runs Linux in user space (just flip the two) for the drivers
<marcusb> ArneBab: that is what the L4 people did with the DDE

<marcusb> ArneBab: so, with these different cuts, there are different
opportunities. on the one end, you can run Linux as normal and get some
of the Hurd features such as translators in some programs. At the other
end, you can do whatever you want and run some linux code for the drivers
or none at all.
<marcusb> ArneBab: one of the big questions then becomes: at which point
can the advantages offered by the Hurd be realized?
<marcusb> ArneBab: and that's not entirely clear to me
<marcusb> when I worked on this with Neal, we pushed further and further
into need-to-change-everything land
<marcusb> while the current efforts on the Hurd seem to be more equivalent
to the could-run-it-in-userspace-on-top-of-Linux camp
<ArneBab> marcusb: for that I think we need a way to move towards them step
by step. Would it be possible to get the advantages of better resource
allocation with a Viengoos in userspace, too?
<ArneBab> and when that is stable, just switch over?
<marcusb> ArneBab: I don't know. I suspect these people will know before
us: http://lxc.sourceforge.net/
<ArneBab> something like implementing flip points: flip Linux with Hurd to
Hund with Linux. Flip Mach with L4 to L4 with Mach.
<ArneBab> lxc sounds interesting.
<marcusb> note that these efforts address security concerns more than other
concerns
<marcusb> so they will get isolation long before sharing is even considered
<marcusb> but some of the issues are the same
<marcusb> once you allow malware to do what it wants, it's a small step to
also allow the user to what he wants :)
<ArneBab> it kinda looks like hacking it where it doesn’t really fit again…
<ArneBab> there I ask myself when the point comes that doing a cleaner
design offsets the popularity
<ArneBab> they are pushing more and more stuff into userspace
<ArneBab> which is a good thing (to me)
<ArneBab> it’s hard to clearly describe how, but even though I like having
more stuff in userspace, the way it is bolted onto Linux doesn’t feel
good for me.
<ArneBab> FUSE is cool, but if I use it, I am at a disadvantage compared to
a non-fuse user
<ArneBab> while in the Hurd, these additional options are on eqal footing.
<marcusb> ArneBab: are they pushing more and more into user space? I don't
think so. I see more of the reverse, actually
<marcusb> or maybe both
<ArneBab> FUSE, lxd and scheduling in userspace move to userspace
<ArneBab> well, KMS moved to the kernel
<ArneBab> to avoid flickering when switching between X and the console?
<ArneBab> marcusb: Do you experience FUSE lxc and such being secondclass in
Linux, too, or is that just a strange feeling of me?
<ArneBab> marcusb: and that splits the users into those who can get stuff
into the kernel and those who can only work in userspace – which I don’t
really like.
<ArneBab> That’s one more advantage of the Hurd: eqal footing for all
(except the Mach hackers, but they have a very limited terrain)
<marcusb> ArneBab: but UML kernel module is minimal, and Linus didn't have
a principled objection to it (but just wanted a more general solution)
<marcusb> ArneBab: as a side note, although people keep complaining, the
linux kernel seems to be growing steadily, so getting stuff into the
kernel doesn't seem too hard. 8-O

IRC, #hurd, 2010-12-28

<tim> but is monolithic so bad?
<sartakov> yep
<braunr> no it's not
<braunr> proof: it works very well for most people
[...]
<braunr> the real problem is extensibility and interfaces
<tim> :/ whats the huge advantage of micro-k
<braunr> extensibility
<tim> over?
<braunr> you can add a whole lot of new services for new purposes with new
interfaces without changing the kernel
<tim> oright
<braunr> it basically boils down to the original Unix idea: everything does
one thing well
[...]
<kilobug> well, I would say extensibility and fault-tolerance are the two
key advantages
<braunr> taht's a side effect
<braunr> there are fault taulerant monolithic kernels
[...]
<braunr> tolerant*
<braunr> and the hurd is for now a non fault-tolerant microkernel based OS
:/
[...]
<kilobug> braunr: not really; you can't ensure fault tolerance for code
running in kernel space, code running in kernel space can do everything,
including reboot, crash, ...
[...]
<braunr> kilobug: right, a monolithick kernel is less folt-tolerant than a
well designed/implemented microkernel based os

It turns out that it is perfectly possible to isolate services running in the
same address space, as it was done in projects such as Singularity, the idea
being that the code is verified through static analysis when installed (but
this requires a language other than C).

<kilobug> braunr: well, the Hurd is buggy nowadays, but things like an
ext2fs translator doing a segfault and being restarted is a
fault-tolerance that would be almost impossible to have in Linux
<kilobug> braunr: sure, you can have fault-tolerance with FUSE, but FUSE is
applying micro-kernel paradigm to Linux
[...]
<braunr> the reason i don't care that much about fault tolerance is that
Linux obviously shows a monolithic kernel can run almost flawlessly if
well written
<braunr> but extensibility is really another matter

Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this
document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or
any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant
Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license
is included in the section entitled GNU Free Documentation
License.