I talked to my meta for the first time last Friday and it did not go well.

My wife started seeing a new guy last month. Things escalated quickly with them so I kind of wanted to close the gap and have a conversation with him.

He and I wrote each other on Facebook and made a plan to meet last Saturday for a beer. We three happened to be at an event on Friday so a conversation just started. We casually talked for a couple, I bought him a beer, we were kind of joking around (not about one another) then he flips out and tells me loudly to stop belittling him. I hold out my hands, palms up, and say, “woah, let’s take a deep breath and reset. Let’s start over.” He turns on his heel then runs away. Physically runs away.

That night I write him on Facebook and apologize for doing or saying anything that would illicit that reaction. He writes, “I appreciate your attempt at humanizing this situation, but first impressions are very important to me. Our entire Interaction outside was you shit talking me to my face, even after i explained to you how I felt about your demeanor towards me. Based on that, I feel as though my involvement in you and wife’s life is negative. I’d much rather be entirely removed from your life than a recurring issue.” I asked my wife if I was shit talking, demeaning, or belittling him and she said she didn’t think I did and was confused as to what happened. She was also really mad at me for fucking up this exciting thing. And mad at herself for allowing us to ever meet.

I write the following, “I appreciated seeing you as a real man tonight and in my nervousness failed to lift you up. I’m sorry. Your relationship with wife has nothing to do with you and me! Who knows, perhaps we will SEE one another in a human vulnerable way, but it doesn’t matter. I love you and support your relationship with wife. It isn’t doing me harm. You aren’t doing me harm. You’re great.”

He’s since written my wife and said he’s willing to continue seeing her. He has not written me back. His emotional immaturity and lack of effective communication give me red flags. His behavior and treatment of me makes me dislike him a lot and now there’s this fucking gorilla in the room. My wife still wants to see him and I find it incredibly difficult not to respect her less for this choice in another partner.

I know the following: he’s not my partner. We don’t need to be friends. We don’t have to like each other. I shouldn’t talk poorly about him to my wife. I - like everyone - need therapy. My loathing him likely has to do with things I’m not addressing about myself, needs that aren’t being met by my partner, etc. I shouldn’t have apologized if I didn’t do anything wrong - that was a knee jerk reaction trying to make him and my wife feel better.

We had a long weekend of talking about this. It basically boiled down to her not wanting me to talk about him or their relationship and her acknowledging but not wanting to discuss further that I shouldn’t have apologized.

She kept circling back to the notion that she should have trusted her gut and never had us meet in the first place.

Definitely this, when I dated my first ex after starting being poly, my ex-husband (very different reason, has nothing to do with this) very much warned me about him repeatedly and I never wanted to listen. 4 months later and I was in the deepest hole of ever been in - depression wise - as that gentleman turned out to be extremely emotionally adusive/manipulative.

That last paragraph made me literally say "Jesus fucking christ"
This is a HUGE red flag. She didn't want you to meet him because...? He's abusive. She didn't want you to meet him because he's abusive.

Likely not physically, but his bipolar seeming behavior, combined with her anxiousness with him in general, is a huge fucking red flag.

I said his "bipolar seeming behavior" which I feel is being easy on the word bipolar.

His behavior, as pointed out to me by my wife, seems bipolar.

His reaction was extremely reminiscent of bipolar, in that he was perfectly cordial and then a switch suddenly flipped and he went off on OP. Do you mind telling me how I could go about handling this easier than I feel I already have?

You tried too hard to fix what was obviously a personal problem on his part, and you’re accepting responsibility for your wife’s anger, even though she acknowledges you didn’t say anything untoward.

Largely, I’d say that when someone has a problem and you didn’t cause it, don’t try to manage their feelings about it, because that isn’t your job.

Your meta is mad. Sucks for him.

Your wife is mad. Sucks for her. She’s mad at you, which doesn’t make sense, so you’ll need to actively decline to take responsibility for her feelings.

“I understand that you’re upset, but you acknowledged that I didn’t do or say anything to warrant his reaction...so, be mad at me if you need to, but I feel that anger is misdirected, and I’m not willing to engage it. I hope you can get past it soon.”

And I know you’re married to her...but when people pick poorly, it says things about them. If someone I was into was into someone as unstable as your meta seems to be..I’d find it hard to remain into them.

So:

My wife still wants to see him and I find it incredibly difficult not to respect her less for this choice in another partner.

Perfectly reasonable way to feel.

You may need to decide what steps you are willing to take to protect yourself if she continues to select problem partners.

You can’t choose who she associates with, but you can choose who you associate with.

I have a rule that my primary has to have as well: If we can't all meet and enjoy each other's company, I'm not ok with the person who can't do that. I know I'm solid with my primary so if anyone else brings immaturity into it, they are out, no question and no rationalizing.

That’s all I wanted: the ability to be cordial, have a beer, be friendly in the same setting. Now I’ve got this fucking awkward mess and have been asked not to talk to him and have asked for distance from their relationship because of how I was treated by both parties.

Focus on compartmentalizing this and on loving my wife. That’s all I can do.

Nah, bro, what you can do is put your foot down and stand up for yourself and your own relationship with your wife. This whole thing is pretty fucky. This dude clearly has problems and reeks of a mono guy that's faking being okay with poly but secretly hopes to steal the girl for himself and not have to share, and the fact that your wife isn't seeing any issues with him is pretty alarming. You have a chance to set a precedent on how you and your marriage will be treated as you go forward in polyamory. Do you want to have to keep dealing with fuckboys that won't respect you or your marriage? Boundaries are important in polyamory, and not wanting your partner to see someone who so blatantly disrespects you is a completely reasonable boundary to have.

I got this vibe as well. It sounds to me, based only on what OP has said, that the guy just wants her to be mono with him, and so he's stirring the pot to make it seem like their primary relationship isn't "working".

Just look at the way she communicated things afterward too... She was mad OP met him? Why? She even said as much herself that he didn't do anything wrong... But he's being vilified nonetheless. Based on this, I'd have to say he is either bipolar (or some other mental illness), or he simply wants OP outta the picture.

Now I’ve got this fucking awkward mess and have been asked not to talk to him and have asked for distance from their relationship because of how I was treated by both parties.

Ugh, I know I said I'd stop replying, but this is the exact definition of communication issues. I'm getting anxiety for you right now.

Man, I know I've said you know the situation better than I do, but I'm begging you to consider the fact you might just be completely oblivious that the things she's doing and asking of you are NOT OK AT ALL in any functional relationship.

I'm new to poly so take my opinions with a grain of salt. I have a primary partner (P) who I live with, and I am not willing to see anyone else who does not respect my relationship with P.

If I start seeing someone new (N), then I need for N to be respectful of P and I, and likewise for P to be respectful of N and I.

They don't have to be best friends with P, but I would consider it a huge giant neon red flag if they couldn't at least be cordial with P and handle interactions with emotional maturity.

If P had a partner who treated me like this, then I would also expect P to feel the same way - that is a part of our negotiated poly - I do not want to have to try isolate the different parts of my life.

I had a relationship end because of this, and it sucked because I loved her but she just could not be normal around my husband and it was obviously uncomfortable for everybody. We reconnected as friends later and she agreed that being poly hadn't been right for her, and now she's happily married. I suspect that OP's meta is the same way, not as comfortable being poly as he wants to be.

I just want to step in and say it's good for you guys if this rule works out for you, but standing on its own, I don't think it's a particularly ethical or useful rule. Perhaps walking it back to being cordial with one another, or at least civil, would be okay - but this rule appears to boil down to a veto-right on your primary's other relationships. "If I don't like them, you aren't allowed to be with them."

You may not like it, but no one is entitled to a relationship. And people can unilaterally end them with no justification needed. In fact, the freedom to not be in a relationship is the only relationship freedom that actually exists. There is nothing inherently unethical about a veto. You don’t have to be involved with someone in a relationship in which veto power is a thing.

Hello again, Mantis! The issue here is that it would be a third party demanding the breakup (or rather, an agreement that makes every relationship dependent on the acquiescense of a third party) rather than the choice of either person in the relationship.

Your last sentence is shifting the blame on the victim, ["It's your fault for getting involved in a relationship with a veto, you should have known you would be discarded"] and your entire post is postulating that I don't agree with something that, if you check my post history, I literally also said less than two days ago.

[In case of confusion:

Your partner has the right to be in a relationship they want to be in, and the right to exit a relationship they don't want to be in. That's different from having a right to tell you who you can be in a relationship with.

Like most decisions, this can be ethical or not ethical. I think your hypothesis is misguided.

Ethical: Telling your partner the way their extra/secondary/meta treats them, or you, is a deal-breaker

​

Not-ethical: Telling your partner to break up with their extra/secondary/meta because you are jealous or you don't "like" the person

​

Big difference. If I were to use the logic behind your reasoning, I would come to the conclusion that abusive relationships are normal and should continue, and that no one should be able to tell you NOT to be in an abusive relationship. At the end of the day, it's important to remember that if you are in a relationship where you agreed to veto, and you don't agree with the veto, it doesn't mean the primary relationship has to continue. It seems to me, based on what you've said, that the primary partner would just have to "suck it up" because it's "not fair to veto".

It all comes back to communication, and more importantly, intention. If you truly believe that a relationship is not healthy for one or both parties, it is absolutely your right to make your feelings known. If there is a mental illness that causes tension in the primary relationship, it is actually unethical for the parties to perpetuate the bad behavior, and to continue the relationship with wanton disregard for the other relationship(s).

For example, this guy flew off the rails at OP (though the reasons why seem to be unclear), I would consider that a dangerous and potentially abusive relationship.

Ethical: Telling your partner the way their extra/secondary/meta treats them, or you, is a deal-breaker

I don't disagree! However, it is still contingent on your partner's autonomy; telling someone "I am not happy with how I am treated by your metamour, and I'd like you to talk to them about it and/or I would like to not have to interact with them" is still different from "I am not happy with how I am treated by your metamour, so break up with them." If your partner sees how you are treated and decides to break up with your metamour because of that, I'm not fussed; if you feel the need to break up with your partner because they will not break up with a metamour who is treating you like crap and will not respect your request not to interact with them, that's also understandable. My only issue here is with having a veto policy - the idea that any relationship, at any time, can be unilaterally ended because an unrelated partner is unhappy with it is unethical and counterproductive.

It all comes back to communication, and more importantly, intention. If you truly believe that a relationship is not healthy for one or both parties, it is absolutely your right to make your feelings known. If there is a mental illness that causes tension in the primary relationship, it is actually unethical for the parties to perpetuate the bad behavior, and to continue the relationship with wanton disregard for the other relationship(s).

I agree with all of this! Once again, however, this is dealing with specific issues as they arrive, not having a veto policy. I realize the lines here may be pretty blurry; it's the difference between reacting to a negative situation when it arises, versus handing power over to someone else pre-emptively. For instance, if you're told on entering a new relationship that your metamour has veto power over your relationship, and you really like your partner, that's handing a ton of power over to that metamour to define the boundaries of your relationship with your partner; it's putting them in a position of superiority over you, and you may feel pressured (implicitly or sometimes even explicitly) to go out of your way to appease them or to structure your relationship around what they are comfortable with or want. This is what I meant when I said elsewhere that this sort of dynamic can be (and in my opinion, often is) abusive.

Once again; I have the right to define my relationship with my partner, or to leave it if I feel it is no longer acceptable, but I do not have the right to determine the boundaries of their relationships with other people. Regarding the OP, something like this could be a deal-breaker for me; if my partner is not willing to stand up for me when I am being clearly denigrated, I would have to talk to them about it, and if we couldn't find a solution that would make me feel comfortable, I could choose to walk away; what I do not have the ethical right to do is demand that my partner break up with their metamour, even if I feel their relationship with my metamour is unhealthy.

...I hope all of that made sense? I'm getting kinda rambly now as we get into the blurry sections of all this :T

The issue here is that it would be a third party demanding the breakup (or rather, an agreement that makes every relationship dependent on the acquiescense of a third party) rather than the choice of either person in the relationship.

No. Your entire argument demands acceptance of an assumption you cannot support, that 3rd party power is unethical. This isn't an ethical issue. Its a preference on part of those engaged. There are a multitude of scenarios in which a 3rd party wields power over the interaction of the engaged parties. You, yourself, likely do this quite often, and call it parenting. Assuming you are located in the same region the majority of redditors reside, your entire government and legal structure follows this very basic framework. There is nothing inherently unethical about this, at all.

Your last sentence is shifting the blame on the victim

Fuck off with that shit. No, its not. There is no victim. You are not entitled to a relationship. You are only free to not be in one. To make that choice you are entitled to transparency, because consent requires sufficient knowledge. Beyond that, you're responsible for the agreements you get into. You aren't a victim and to say so is ludicrous.

Two people have the right to frame their structure however they wish. And that includes veto power. So long as you are aware this power exists prior to engaging in a relationship with either party, you have nothing to complain about. Don't like it? Don't be involved. You're not entitled to their space. They (either or both) are allowing you to enter. That's a privilege, not a right. And they get to set up how that privilege is distributed. Just because you, personally, dislike that structure doesn't make it unethical. Less so that it is inherently (ie. in its nature) unethical. You can't even justify that it is unfair. This is one of the most annoying things about this community. None of you seem to be capable of differentiating preference from morality.

Your entire argument demands acceptance of an assumption you cannot support, that 3rd party power is unethical. This isn't an ethical issue.

Well, if that is your belief, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do not have some sort of empirical proof that it's unethical; I simply believe, philosophically, that it is, for the reasons I've outlined elsewhere in this thread.

Well, if that is your belief, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do not have any sort of empirical proof that it's unethical; I simply believe, philosophically, that it is, for the reasons I've outlined elsewhere in this thread.

I don't think you're off base. Maybe the part that's not clear is that I would also self-veto (?) anyone I'm interested in if they were either unwilling to meet my primary, or immature in any way.

I'd also say that it feels to me like many people get pretty desperate to have a second relationship and get into all sorts of conundrums because of that. My partner and I are super satisfied with each other and patiently welcome others expanding on that with us after we get to know them well and feel really comfortable with them, very organically.

You definitely aren't wrong with that second paragraph, especially with those new to poly - I went through that phase myself! I think perhaps framing this as a hard and fast rule may present you guys as less flexible than you are?

Here's a novel idea, and not just in response to you but in general: Maybe if everyone in a relationship is okay with a rule that goes both ways, it's ethical and they shouldn't be told it's wrong?

I see way, way too many people calling out, for example, veto policy as being unethical even when all involved agree and have that power within the relationship. It's their relationship, isn't it?

And on that note, it would be inherently unethical not to tell a potential new partner about it, and so if the relationship is ethical, the new partner would know. Therefore they would know what they are getting in to. That woukd make it their fault for jumping in and saying it was fine if they weren't in fact okay with it.

Sorry, my partners and i all see this trend over and over again within the poly community, and frankly, it's bullshit. Consenting adults and all that. It's no one else's place to say it's wrong unless someone is being abused.

Here's a novel idea, and not just in response to you but in general: Maybe if everyone in a relationship is okay with a rule that goes both ways, it's ethical and they shouldn't be told it's wrong?

Agreement does not make something ethical. If everyone including Mike agrees that they should murder Mike, that doesn't make murdering Mike ethical.

Furthermore, consent is not given and then unrevokable; consent is an evolving process. It's very possible to agree to rules that you later chafe at, or are hurt by; not making unethical or unreasonable rules to begin with is just a better idea.

Also worth pointing out: holding veto power over someone else's relationship could be, and I would argue often is, inherently abusive.

Your view here - especially considering your phrases "goes both ways" and "when all involved... have that power" - seems to be implicitly ignoring the new partner's welfare and agency. Or are you suggesting a new partner also has veto power over the original relationship? Can I go out with your partner and decide to veto their relationship with you?

Veto power has to do with bringing someone new into the relationship. Once they are accepted and things go smoothly, them the window has passed and they are a part of things, therefore have the same ability with new partners.

Also, false equivalence much? Murder is not the same as a relationship, so don't even try to equate the two. For one, ending a relationship doesn't inherently take a person's ability to form new relationships away. That's a childish over exaggeration.

As for consent being revokable, absolutely right! I never implied otherwise. A partner should bring up if they have become unhappy with an agreed upon rule, and a solution should be found. That may be that the relationship parts ways, it may he that the rule changes, it may be even that the disconcern with it is due to something else. The only way to know, and work it out, is to talk.

I saved this for last: if you want to argue that agreed upon things can be inherently abusive, you skirt dangerously close to arguing that BDSM is abusive. Is that how you view it? Do you not see the flaw in your reasoning? In a polycule with a veto rule that everyone wanted decides that a new partner is a potential, then that potential new partner needs to know right off the bat. If they don't, its unethical. If they do, and agree, then how is it unethical?

Im closing, it isn't your relationship, so why the hell do you think it's okay to assert your morality onto it of all parties agree amd are otherwise happy? By the way, our polycule has been a thing, and had a veto rule the whole time, for 15 years. For some people it works, so it isnt like I am talking from an inexperienced position here.

Veto power has to do with bringing someone new into the relationship. Once they are accepted and things go smoothly, them the window has passed and they are a part of things, therefore have the same ability with new partners.

So then no, it doesn't go both ways; it only goes one way, outward toward new partners. That is a form of couples' (or in this case, relationship) privilege; it's unfair to new partners and dismissive of their agency, even if they later get to be unfair and dismissive toward others.

Also, false equivalence much? Murder is not the same as a relationship, so don't even try to equate the two.

I wasn't. It was an analogy, not an equivalence; at no point did I suggest that vetoing a relationship was equivalent to murder. [Stupid argument, admittedly. My point is that whether or not the situations are morally equivalent isn't what I was discussing; my only point was that "everyone agrees to X" does not inherently make X ethical.]

A partner should bring up if they have become unhappy with an agreed upon rule, and a solution should be found.

Except, of course, in the case of a new partner being vetoed.

I saved this for last: if you want to argue that agreed upon things can be inherently abusive, you skirt dangerously close to arguing that BDSM is abusive.

Now this is a false analogy. I don't have a safe word to stop you vetoing me!

Well, no; not if, for instance, Mike is currently suffering from depression, and wouldn't agree to dying if they got treatment for it.

Which is, in my mind, a reasonable analogy; new partners agreeing to a veto rule are potentially (I would argue likely) under the throes of NRE, and may not be making the best decisions for themselves. Both situations involve someone in an emotional state that may influence their judgement.

Sure, also this is the internet and for brevity I might state some things more simply than in real life. All situations I engage in are dealt with much more complexity and thoughtfulness. But if the first time I meet someone they get emotional and storm away while I'm being cordial, that person most likely won't get a second chance.

I definitely agree that some of the systems being discussed approach Veto. I do think an ethical system can be constructed around 'being civil' or 'being cordial', I hope it's appropriate to reply here.

For context: I want my polycule to be able to associate cordially and with respect, they don't have to be friends or like each other on any deep level, but I am unwilling to try compartmentalise my life. To me this is similar to how I want my work colleagues to be cordial towards my partner(s), and vice versa.

I don't expect my primary (P) to break things off if a newcomer (N) doesn't like me or if I don't like them. But if N noticeably treats me poorly - and ideally P if able to witness this - then I would expect P to take action (even just talking to them about it).

The difference is that my feelings towards N are not themselves relevant, but how N noticeably treats me is.
With a Veto my feelings/opinions have the final say, a Veto allows arbitrary ending by any one party.
This hypothetical civil/cordial system can only be ended if more than one party can observe an action violating the rules (being cordial and respectful towards all involved, we are adults).

I want my polycule to be able to associate cordially and with respect, they don't have to be friends or like each other on any deep level, but I am unwilling to try compartmentalise my life.

I think expecting at least a basic level of civility isn't out of line, no!

I don't expect my primary (P) to break things off if a newcomer (N) doesn't like me or if I don't like them. But if N noticeably treats me poorly - and ideally P if able to witness this - then I would expect P to take action (even just talking to them about it).

This is absolutely the correct view to take, I think. This is more of an issue with your relationship with your partner; if your metamour is noticeably treating you poorly, demeaning you or being aggressive or just generally being shitty to you, pointing that out to your partner and trying to reach a resolution is quite reasonable. Furthermore, you aren't presenting this as a hard rule, just something that, if it comes up, needs to be discussed and addressed, which is good!

This kinda ties back into the OP here; I would have expected my partner, in that situation, to have my back and at least attempt to sort things out with their partner, rather than just blowing it off. Importantly, if I'm being actively mistreated by a metamour, I can and will refuse contact with them, up to and including ending my current relationship if I have to; that has nothing to do with whether I like my metamour or that they're dating my partner, and everything to do with preserving my own mental health and well-being.

This is absolutely the correct view to take, I think. This is more of an issue with your relationship with your metamour; if they are noticeably treating you poorly, demeaning you or being aggressive or just generally being shitty to you, pointing that out to your partner and trying to reach a resolution is quite reasonable. Furthermore, you aren't presenting this as a hard rule, just something that, if it comes up, needs to be discussed and addressed, which is good!

My boyfriend dated a girl about a year ago that was completely insufferable and the worst possible stereotype of "crazy girlfriend" you could imagine. It got to the point that, before I talked to him and he said he was trying to figure out how to break things off, I was questioning his taste in women and what that meant worth regards to myself.

Have to concur with the above, and also add that sometimes it’s not good to be too deferential. Apologising to someone for their mistakes, or downplaying their jackassishness and taking the burden on yourself only validated that person in other people’s eyes and makes you look like it is partly your fault, when really you’re just trying to be the bigger man.

just here to say that i'm so delighted with the emotional depth and awareness in your response and in OP's post. coming to this sub sometimes reaffirms what i feel like i stand to gain from being poly: a better sense of myself and my own emotions. thanks, everyone!

There is so much contradiction here I can't understand how any of you stand it. Either you made offensive remarks or you didn't. If you did, he should be able to call you out. If you didn't, you're being blamed by him and by your wife for nothing. It also doesn't help that you practically grovelled without even knowing what you did wrong. You all need to stick to the facts and use explicit communication.

I think you did well to try to be mature and take the high road. Good job there, but be careful not to lose yourself in the process, which the 'groveling' shows you just overextended yourself trying to be a good person. Keep your center.

I dunno. Obviously I can't tell you what to have your wife do, and I can't tell you what to have your meta do. They're gonna do what they do and the only actions you can control are your own.

Take a step back from this guy and create some space. Focus on your own relationship with your wife. Don't even talk about the dude. He sounds like he may not have a lot of emotional intelligence. Now, I wasn't there for your interaction with him and I couldn't tell you if you were attacking or belittling, maybe you were and maybe you weren't. But regardless of whether you were or weren't, the only thing for you to do is give this guy space.

If he's childish, or if he's trying to cowboy your wife by making you look like the bad guy, all you can do is stay consistent to your ethics and keep communicating clearly and rationally with your wife, and building upon your relationship with her.

Hey so after reading your responses and all the responses on this thread so far, I just want to point a few things out that I've noticed about you.

You seem to either be lightly arguing, defending your wife/marriage or cordially dismissive(Polite and agreeable but ending conversation) with anyone who is saying that it's a wife thing and there's issue there.

However for anyone who puts you back into the blame and gives you things that you should work on, you're extremely grateful, like in this comment.

Personally, as someone who's natural inclination is to want to make everyone happy, blaming myself for any issues, and always thinking there's something I can do to fix, remedy, or help a situation, I relate to all your responses.

But there comes a point that you have to realize that this might not be an issue with you or an issue that you can fix by changing yourself or working on "getting over it". After an incredibly emotionally abusive relationship, I've finally realized that this isn't always the case. Not everything can get solved by changing yourself or trying to get over it.

You seem to either be lightly arguing, defending your wife or cordially dismissive(Polite and agreeable but ending conversation) with anyone who is saying that it's a wife thing and there's issue there.

Also, this post and subsequent Conversation as lead to us having a really good and productive talk this morning. I am finally beginning to feel heard and like my position has been effectively communicated. Thank you so much everybody for taking the time to be honest and real with me. I greatly appreciate the emotional maturity and sensitivity that this community take so seriously.

Thanks for that. I just want to make sure that I’m not vilifying my wife. She hurt me and I’ve communicated that hurt. Her reaction to it may not be what I want but at least she’s been there and is also attempting to be there for me. She is just seeing someone who I don’t like and have some problems with. The rest of how we operate is great!

I'm just worried that based on your responses, you're being more of an apologist than looking at this in a realistic way.

I mean my relationship with my ex was amazing except for the abusive parts. Just don't do what I did and be in denial for so long that it breaks you, constantly blaming yourself for every little issue to the point you don't even know what you're doing right or wrong and every step and decision is riddled with anxiety that it's the wrong one.

Unfortunately I can't comment on this any more as it seems you have your mind made up despite coming to us for advice. As I said earlier, it seems you're disregarding any advice you don't want and refuting it, but with advice you do want you're accepting it gladly, and your comment now seems to confirm that.

I told my wife this morning based on the advice that I received in this thread that I felt as if she had taken the emotional side for this person and not considered what that would feel like as her spouse. She said that she needs to have a very serious conversation with this man about how everything was handled both his actions and her own. I apologize if you don’t feel heard but you knowThat I am taking all positions seriously and I’m not intentionally being an apologist for her.

Ironically I was intentionally vague with regards to fault. :D If it's his wife's fault, he can still only do something about himself. He can call his wife's attention to the problem, but that's as likely to lead to hostility and resentment as it is to resolution. And besides which, understand that he's gonna present his side of the story in a way that will make him seem sympathetic, but respond to harsh criticism of his loved one defensively, even while feeling validated. That's human nature. Most of us do that.

So at the end of the day, the advice we give has to be agnostic of whose fault it is, because we don't know from the little information we've gotten.

Yeah, I’ve been very clear that my opinion on the matter is influenced only by the information given to me in this thread, and filtered through my own experiences, and I am completely cognizant of the fact that I’m not in the situation or directly observing the situation.

So I am in no way saying that my opinion is absolutely correct, and all of my advice, blame or not, should be considered with a grain of salt since I’m not in the situation.

The thing that eventually got to me though, that led to me coming off pretty strong with blame, is the fact that the OP seems to either be in denial or just completely oblivious to the possibility it could be her fault.

What frustrated me more than anything, is that I completely relate to his position, because I’ve been there before, and that relationship almost destroyed me because of how abusive it actually was that I was in denial about and it took me years to learn to stop blaming myself for every problem in other peoples lives.

I know it’s unfair of me to project that onto this relationship given that I don’t know all the details, but I just want to push the fact that it’s a possibility, but this guy seems to deny without any rate reason other than his wife can do no wrong and he’s willing to do anything it takes to change himself to make things better.

And this whole thread probably struck a nerve with me, so there’s that too.

:) It's okay if you're feeling a little activated by what OP is experiencing. I can completely understand why you would. I'm also an abuse survivor, and I know how upsetting it can be to watch someone in an abusive relationship from the outside, defending the person abusing them. We just gotta have faith that if OP is being badly mistreated by his wife, he'll figure it out. Trying to make him figure it out won't help or support him, it'll only make him feel alienated from the people he's coming to for support.

I'm certainly in full support of encouraging him not to feel that he's responsible for this somehow though. Telling him he didn't do anything wrong is a great way to give him affirmations.

I don't think /u/wildfirexox is suggesting you should have chosen for your partner, just that sometimes people make less than optimal choices.

The situation sucks, but at least in my anecdotal experience, I find people engaging in the poly lifestyle to be more outliers. By this I mean that if you have a bell curve of people with certain... what I call "relationship IQ", I have found poly folks to be either much lower on the normal scale or much higher when compared to an average curve. You seem to be on the right track, though.

I'm going to make up a story here: I think he secretly wants monogamy and is extremely insecure about the situation, this whole interaction seems like it's framed in his mind as you and him social posturing over your wife, and as such, any perceived hits to his social status get exaggerated and he overreacted defensively. It's easier dealing with an abstract idea than an actual person and because you are married he's already at a huge disadvantage in rapport.

This doesn't sound like healthy poly and I'd expect him to continue to work against your relationship goals with your wife. He obviously sees you as a rival. I get that you're trying to make your wife happy, but you should really stop trying to apologize for his reaction and stop facilitating them getting back together. He needs to work things out with you and her, acknowledge what he did wrong, and change his behavior. Anything short of that and I expect him to be a burr in your saddle going forward.

There is an additional possibility that he’s not as mentally unstable as he seems and is trying to manufacture conflict. It wouldn’t matter if it doesn’t make sense to you. What matters is that she believes it or takes his side, which she appears to. I would at least entertain the idea that this whole conflict is not in earnest. Some people see feelings as a tool to be used for manipulation.

Did he personally identify as poly prior to however they met? Or monogamous-by-default, but then met your wife, and decided he'd 'give it a go'?

I had an ex who dated a few people who matched the latter description. It's easy to agree to something like that before feelings are involved and they think it could lead to sex. But when they actually start liking the person, them being with someone else already suddenly isn't such an appealing idea.

Did he personally identify as poly prior to however they met? Or monogamous-by-default, but then met your wife and, and decided they'd 'give it a go'?

Did he personally identified as poly prior to however they met? Or monogamous-by-default, but then met your wife and, and decided they'd 'give it a go'?

FYI, those kinds of things never really end well, and with situations like what's happening now happening, it's a sure guarantee.

Horror stories that match yours are all over the internet and this subreddit.

Please try to think about some of this advice people are giving you in here, it's no coincidence that almost everyone in here has had an experience with this kind of thing, because it's so very common.

Well there you go. He clearly isn't happy about you and your wife being together. No wonder he found everything you said insulting; he almost certainly sees you as the guy having an affair with 'his' girlfriend.

Monogamous people don't just become poly overnight in most cases. It generally requires a fair amount of self-reflection and research. If he hasn't done any of this, and isn't looking to, there's really no reason to think that he'll ever be ok (let alone happy) with you and your wife being together or that he'll ever stop seeing you as anything other than a threat to be removed if possible.

Well there you go. He almost certainly isn't happy about you two being together. No wonder he found everything you said insulting; from his perspective, he probably sees you as the person having an affair with 'his' girlfriend.

Perhaps I approached him with too much familiarity. I tend to be fast friends with people and that could be off putting to a more introverted person.

My physically reaching out with my palms up, asking to take a deep breath, reset - that might have been too much. It’s a pretty common way I connect with people or calm down a hot situation though. Breathing, some form of passive/light physical connection, eye contact, measured voice, etc.

[edit: misspelling of might]

My physically reaching out with my palms up, asking to take a deep breath, reset - that night have been too much. It’s a pretty common way I connect with people or calm down a hot situation though. Breathing, some form of passive/light physical connection, eye contact, measured voice, etc.

What I'm reading from the situation is that he was feeling anxious about you and needed space from you and you trying to calm him down triggered him because it did the opposite of give him space. I think that's why he ran away. However, if he did need space from you, he didn't express it, so that's on him.

You seem like an awesome dude. I hope you don't blame yourself for this at all. That is the best way to handle a heated situation. I wonder if there's something else going on in his life that's causing insecurity. Or he's just insecure about being secondary. I wouldn't put too much thought into it unless he or your wife want to discuss it. There's nothing left for you to do.

It might be misguided, but I blame myself for allowing jealousy to be a part of my emotional lexicon. For allowing doubt in the integrity of my marriage to cloud the lenses of how I see this relationship.

Yeah, this taught me to be a bit more calculated in how I respond to the aggression of others. Take it for what it’s worth, but I pulled the King of Swords that night in preparation for meeting him. I didn’t really take all the advice the card had to offer and sit back, communicate little vocally, and respond to only what was needed.

Now I’ve got this mess. They get to move on and I’m left with this icky mess.

I worked in escalations for a major cable/ internet company for a year. When you ask for a manager at a call center, you usually don't get a manager. You get an escalation specialist. Things to keep in mind: it's over the phone and they're already angry when you pick up.

Try your damndest to look past their stupidity. This is rough because you have to meet them at their level without talking down to them.

Calm, even tone. Project confidence. Obviously, be polite.

Know what you're talking about and if you don't, admit it quickly while still projecting confidence.

Let them talk themselves out. Don't interject. I would always wait for them to ask, "are you still there?"

If it's an actual issue (not emotional) keep notes (in person, mental notes) of the relevant information that they give you and focus only on that information in your response. Sometimes they'll demand that you acknowledge their emotions. Do so and move on quickly.

Validate their concerns, even if they aren't valid in your opinion. There's a reason that they feel this way and you need to understand it as much as possible.

If it's an emotional issue (such as, "the last person I talked to was very rude"), validate, apologize, empathize (optional), assure. "Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I'm sorry that this has happened. I would not appreciate being treated like that, either. Here's what I can/will do to remedy this."

Be solution-oriented. Tell them the possible solutions and put the ball in their court if you can.

Be absolutely clear that you will not argue back and forth with them. Set the tone early on and maintain that tone for the entire conversation.

Make them feel respected and powerful but never at the expense of your own.

The most important thing to say if you're yelled at - "I understand that you're angry. I'm willing to listen and help, but I will not be yelled at. This will go much smoother if we can establish mutual respect for each other and speak civilly. (Pause for apology. If none, move on) Now, here's what I've gathered so far..."

I worked in escalations for a major cable/ internet company for a year. When you ask for a manager at a call center, you usually don't get a manager. You get an escalation specialist. Things to keep in mind: it's over the phone and there already angry when you pick up.

It's not something I'm particularly good at myself, actually. :/ It really just depends on what my instinct/gut tells me. I've gone from hand holding, to walking away in the moment and trying to address things via text/email/etc; because I have a tendency to blurt stuff out I don't mean or just fumble with my words when I speak. I'm not very articulate unless I can reread what I wrote. It's a weakness, but I have just accepted it at this point.

It's hard to say because I don't usually get new people just dropped into my life. Unfortunately, I'm more or less in the position of your wife, than you, in a rather similar situation. Though, I've been with my [primary] for 4 years, and one of my other g/fs on and off for a year+. They don't get along, and they have nothing in common to bound over. [Primary] sees her now, as less of a threat, but still sees that I've had a lot of drama over g/f, and that has severely tainted the well.

Something that didn't help was [primary] holding in some jealousy and assumptions of the relationship that I had with g/f. Though it sounds like that might not be the case with your situation. It actually sounds like the source of the problem is external for you. And that's really tough to work through since you can't change someone else. It sounds like you've tried talking to your wife about this situation, and assuming that you've conveyed your opinions and concerns sufficiently, it falls on her to fix this situation. Being the hinge of a V, ultimately it falls on her to be the first to attempt to balance the relationships (my statement leaves room for an abusive partner leaving it unbalanced, in which case, the hinge person needs to evaluate their relationships); it sounds like in this case that she's still in the position of being the one with that responsibility still.

My advice from your side of the situation: as others have said, clear communication. Leave room/time for things to cool off and try to find similar interests that the two of you can bound over. And if you can't, then try to find an equal understanding that you both just might not get along. I've pretty much settled to both [primary] and g/f that I'm not interested in discussing about them with the other anymore. My advice for your wife: this is at the least a yellow flag for him. This could be benign and a silly misunderstanding; or this could be a major thing. And honestly, this is the part where we have little room to really help. I know you're hesitant, understandably, to discussing the details, but this honestly feels like the devil's in the details on this one. For all we know, you could have accidentally said something racist, or he could have misheard you in a loud bar. I hate to boil this down to like, statistics and numbers, but like, she's got to take a step back and do some risk/reward assessment. Take that from someone who, probably should have stuck to my gut feelings from the beginning. Though, I can say honestly that I love both people, I just, wish I had had gotten started on a better footing and understanding with them both.

The "you guys" part really sticks with me, because it seems to imply that you're grouping him in as a stereotypical lifted truck guy, and that that group of people is very "other" from you. Also maybe he actually likes Nickelback? Either way, even if it's just an innocent joke on your end, it has kind of a hostile tone.

Meeting a metamour is a very delicate and emotionally charged situation to begin with, throw in some tactless joke that doesn't land well on top of that, and I can see how you can have a recipe for disaster.

Was his reaction totally unreasonable? Yeah, and IMO it's a huge red flag, but I also think that that kind of poking fun at people was pretty tactless and is not something that should be done with anyone you're meeting for the first time, and especially not in this kind of context, where the stakes are so high. That honestly says something about you.

He is a house music DJ. We were at his really hyped up house music show. I know for a fact this man does not like Nickelback Besides she made the lifted truck joke not me, I was just following their lead. But that said I appreciate your saying that any jokes were probably out of line considering the severity of the situation. Thank you for that I’ll be a little bit more thoughtful next time I have a conversation like this.

Why are you being dishonest to him, though? You loathe him you say, and yet tell him “I love you” and “you are great”? That’d weird me out so much if a meta I hardly knew wrote a message to me like that. I get it, you want to patch things up for your wife.

Yeah, I wrote that immediately after he stormed off. I do have live for him because he’s a real person with real emotions. I shouldn’t have written it and did so as a knee jerk reaction to hell calm him down and have my wife not be mad at me. It was a mistake that I have since acknowledged. If all I shared with this sub was a glossy version where I didn’t make mistakes, all I’d be doing is stroking my fragile ego and not looking for actual advice.

Ok, first: this guy sounds like he's got some issues. Second, it's natural for your wife to blame you (she feels comfortable with you and this other guy is still a novelty), but does she really want to continue seeing a guy that doesn't like you so blatantly?

If I witnessed my new lover acting like this with a partner I'd seriously reconsider. It says a lot about how he handles conflict.

What she doesn't see is that today it's you. Tomorrow it's her. She will eventually become the object of his bad attitude because this whole thing was about him. He's got a problem.

I think she needs time to sort this situation out in her own head. She acknowledged to you that you didn't say anything to deserve what you got. She just can't let go of him yet. But I'd imagine something is turning over in her head because she acknowledged that one thing to you, but then refused to examine the issue further with you.

Point out to her what I said in paragraph 1 above. Then zip it and stay back. When he turns his bad attitude on her, she will see you were right and hopefully it will change how she handles problems like this in the future.

I get this 100%, having been there pretty recently -- I'm actively trying not to give any advice on this situation because in mine it was pretty clear to me that the meta was definitely trying to fuck with my relationship and my partner doesn't see it that way at all. But I think some of the shit he said just sounds frankly gross. Like, immediately jumping to "I’d much rather be entirely removed from your life than a recurring issue" sounds manipulative as fuck to me -- it's the kind of thing that someone would say in order to get you to apologize for screwing up, regardless of whether or not you did. Same with telling your wife he's "willing" to keep seeing her despite whatever. It reeks of a power play -- like, he knows the honeymoon period is still in full effect and therefore making dramatic sweeping statements is going to lead to getting the apology and groveling he wants.

I asked my wife if I was shit talking, demeaning, or belittling him and she said she didn’t think I did and was confused as to what happened. She was also really mad at me for fucking up this exciting thing. And mad at herself for allowing us to ever meet.

Ooof, that's not a healthy way to process this situation.

First of all, if you made a mistake, you made a mistake. If your wife doesn't think you did, and you didn't think you did, there's really no reason she should be mad at you. Just because the other guy blames you doesn't mean it actually was you. This scares me because it shows a lack of emotional awareness on her part(she's mad, the guy she's into blames you, and so she blames you too even though she doesn't think you did anything).

And also, you are completely correct about the red flags. And I would have a serious conversation with your wife about those too. Because I've seen it first hand that guys like that will selfishly tear apart relationships without blinking.

And then it seems based on this post, that your wife doesn't seem as aware of this, and while I know I don't have all the information, I really hope she isn't easily manipulatable, because otherwise you could have a real problem on your hand if this guy is trying to demonize you to her, and will be a constant bug in her ear about his distaste for you in an almost gaslighting way. From experience, this behavior can taint her reality and eventually start seeing you as a bad guy.

Him being as unstable as he's made out to be in this post, could eventually lead to him injecting instability into your relationship if allowed to continue.

Of course I have NO physical evidence of this being your case, just going off everything in this post, but I've seen situations like this pan out fairly often in the community, and just want to give you and your wife some food for thought.

You obviously have a much better more rounded opinion on the situation than I do of course, so take everything I say with a grain of salt because I'm only responding to the situation based on the details directly given to me through the filter of my own slice of experience on this planet. haha

But from that statement, it sounds like she doesn't respect, or is being dismissive of your feelings about him and the situation you guys are in, and that is not healthy. If you're uncomfortable and/or have issue with him, that's a problem that needs to be addressed, or otherwise it can become a much bigger issue in the future.

I'll admit, my advice is a bit more cynical, because as I said before, the details you're laying out are reminiscent of other situations I've seen, and in some cases been a part of, that did not end well for anyone involved. I would press ANYONE who's been in a similar situation and had things turn out OK come forward, because I've never seen it happen unless this gets handled properly, and not by people saying "I don't want to hear about it anymore" which is avoidant and dismissive behavior.

If you're feeling uncomfortable with someone she's dating, you have a right to be, because she's also in a relationship with you and vice versa. It's never one sided, and your dynamic might not have veto rights established, but it's only fair that concerns are heard and respected equally across the board.

As for you and the guy, don't have to like each other, but you also need to establish a mature and mutual respect that you both are dating the same woman. And that's not always just an instantaneous choice, it's something that's built up by a little bit of work.

Edit: I'm of the camp that I need to get along with my metas, and it's a bit non-negotiable for me. Again, I've seen it way too many times. It just puts a strain on your wife to have to manage two people who aren't at least ok to be around eachother with, or that she has to constantly worry if there will be issues. Those are waters that are very dangerous when it comes to interpersonal relationships. Imagine having two friends who don't get along with each other and having to navigate plans, parties, and events, now apply that to two full on committed relationships. It's a recipe for disaster.

Also, something worth mentioning is that in her NRE she might not even see the red flags, and be defensive of what she's feeling for him, so it's important that if you see red flags you should bring up those concerns in a serious manner.

As for you and the guy, don't have to like each other, but you also need to establish a mature and mutual respect that you both are dating the same woman. And that's not always just an instantaneous choice, it's something that's built up by a little bit of work.

That's really an odd situation. I'm curious what the conversation was about before he stormed off. If she has only been seeing him for a month, he might have never showed that side to her before this interaction. I'm not sure what to think about her desire to continue seeing him after that interaction. If she really thought you said nothing offensive, then if I were her, I would be worried about seeing someone so emotionally unstable. I think the best thing to do is, honestly, nothing. You can't change him and you can't change her. I'd let it play itself out for awhile and see what happens after everyone cools off. Also, I agree with other posters that you shouldn't apologize for stuff you don't feel you did. Some people are happy to blame others, and apologizing when you don't mean it, gives them the chance to lay the blame on you. So, you learned that for next time, no use beating yourself up about it now.

Here's the thing, I used to be a big apologizer. It came from a good place. I wanted people to be happy, I wanted to take responsibility for my part in any conflict (even if my part was really small or much smaller than the other participant). I've learned over time that it just mucks up the waters because other people aren't on the same page in terms of trying to get along and being self aware about how they might have contributed to a conflict. So, now I only apologize when I truly feel I did something wrong. Don't feel bad about it, it comes from a good place. And if everyone else were like you, it would be a good thing to do. But, now you know for next time!

Yea, I used to struggle with that until middle of last year when I finally realized, through having a partner (sorta still do) who wasn't growing from the situation until I stopped trying to essentially take responsibility for their end of what happened.

And now we're growing better for it. They are recognizing their faults in bad situations, and I'm learning to moderate where I need to help and where I need to let them walk their path to self growth.

Hey OP, others have pretty much covered everything there is to say here. What I wanted to add is my perspective on your attempt to smooth things over. Other people have given you flak for it, but I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with trying to keep the peace, so to speak.

I frequently will extend olive branches to people who started beefs with me either in an effort to be a mensch, or just because it's likely the easiest way to placate the other parties in the situation. What can I say -- I worked in the service industry for a long, long time and I'm not unfamiliar to having to apologize for someone else's fuckup. Just... don't let yourself change from a husband to a doormat. This doesn't cover situations where you were the one that fucked up. It's on you to take responsibility for being an asshole, and making amends for that.

One recent example from my personal experience:

I was a member of a D&D group until today, when I officially recused myself. We had all added each other on Facebook as members joined the group. Recently, I posted on my wall/newsfeed that I was excited that I finally got my DSA membership card. Well, my Dungeon Master (DM / guy who runs the game, and hosts the group) saw this, and started acting out towards me. Shit-posting anti-leftist memes on my wall, vaguebooking completely immature statuses, and the like. This guy is 49 years old, but was acting like a 17 year old who just discovered MySpace. Never once did I bring up politics during game night. I knew he was a Trump supporter, but I never made a fuss because we were all there to roll dice, drink beer, and kick monsters' asses...

At several points during and afterwards, I tried to smooth things over by saying: "look, it seems like you may have the wrong idea about me and my political beliefs. I'd love to have a dialogue with you to see where you're coming from, and so that you can ask me whatever you'd like about those subjects."

I heard nothing back. He would respond to his other MAGA C.H.U.D. friends who were dogpiling on me, but not directly to me. So, I sent him a message directly, reiterating that we seem to have gotten into a beef, and that I'd like to take him out for a beer and hash things out before they spill over into the rest of the gaming group. Nothing. No response. Just crickets and tumbleweeds.

So I announced I was leaving the group. I didn't want my personal disagreements my DM acting like an actual child to affect everyone else's evenings. The other party members have jobs, kids, etc. that need tending to, and the one day a week we can all get together would be ruined because this broflake couldn't handle the fact that other people have different political beliefs. Sometimes, you just have to be the one to walk away. You can't control what other people think of you, and you can't control their emotions. All you can do is be your authentic self (as long as you're not being a douche), and decide for yourself if you want to hang around and deal with the fallout.

I have been in a situation very parallel to yours. My partner and I had an LDR, and she connected with a guy who had been in her life (also LDR). I can of found out in a backwards fashion, mostly because my partner didn't expect anything to develop, so she was surprised, too. But she encouraged us to chat, which we did online for a couple of months.

In my case, after something I said, the meta decided he didn't want to be a topic of conversation between our mutual partner and myself. He had been such because this was the first "new" relationship she had after being involved with me, and there were some communication issues we had that accidentally intensified things. Talking over how they met and how they got along helped me greatly.

But when he decided to cease being a topic, she supported his right to ask that -- but did not tell me at the time that she thought it was a immature (I forget the exact wording, but it has this flavor) position for him to take. This further intensified my jealousy struggles.

As it happened, the meta eventually had troubles maintaining communication with our shared partner. This didn't actually help me, and it took months before I was able to have a conservation with my partner that broke through my jealousy, and got me climbing out of the pit, instead of digging it deeper (is that a mixed metaphor?).

It took further years for my partner and me, practicing improved communication and using an awareness of fears and vulnerabilities, to get to a point where...I'm not worried about him anymore. I finally hit a level of security with my partner and how we relate that feels healthy. I've encouraged her to reach out to him as a result.

I completely understand the red flags. I saw loads of them with the meta I dealt with. Part of my trouble, though, was gate-keeping my partner's relationships. While it wasn't my job, she did give me veto power at the time, partly because she was concerned she might make bad choices. (This meta was actually someone who was already in her life, remember, so veto didn't apply.)

Today, if I were in this situation, I'd be talking with my partner about my concerns, and trying hard to stop talking once she made clear she understood them. Back then, I tried to not say anything and be "a good poly person," and that backfired.

Like you, I don't think I did anything wrong in my communication with the meta. It is better to continue to be the more mature person in such a situation. However, if you feel your own pain for being accused and misunderstood, do talk it over with your wife, so she understands.

The crucial thing to remember, though, is that your wife may get along with people who are not clones of you. You already expect physical differences, but you may be shocked to find political differences, different notions of work and social obligations, variations in entertainment enjoyed, and so on. You don't have to understand why she is drawn to someone; even if she can explain it, she may never be able to do so to your satisfaction.

There's a button my my got when she filed for divorce: "DON'T CRITICIZE YOUR WIFE'S DECISIONS. SHE MARRIED YOU, DIDN'T SHE?" In many ways, that applies here. You know she loves you -- as in, she chooses to have you in your life, and reach out to you, so that you feel loved. But it doesn't mean you'll ever understand or accept why she chose someone else. Sometimes you will..but sometimes, you won't. Do not let your inability to perceive the reasons behind her other relationships lessen the respect you have for her. She is entitled to follow her heart, and even make mistakes, just as you are. Can you explain why you may be drawn to someone other people see as a mismatch for you? Probably not while you are in the throes of it.

It can be surprising just how much can spring up out of seemingly nothing. I would not have thought I had a jealous bone in my body...until I was jealous. Now I know what to look for and how to combat it.

Looking back, I'd say part of my challenge was that gate-keeping. Even though I could share my partner, there was still that sense of wanting to protect her as well. To some extent, she wanted that protection, too; how you go about that is the trick. We eventually got to a sense of being more like a forest ranger: Not there to prevent someone from going in, but being willing to clean up any messes and put out any fires afterwards.

A lot of my willingness to be a gate-keeper was the fear that I wasn't quite good enough for her. That she'd be able to find someone better than me. That she would find someone so different was a challenge I hadn't considered. It didn't help.

Her natural excitement at having someone "new" in her life meant that the meta would come up in conversation...even if it derailed a conversation about me and my feelings. Learning to refocus such conversations was one important lesson! You can talk about the meta, but you have to have some balance. It is very easy to take an established partner for granted, but it is worth over communicating to make sure everything is fair and partners aren't feeling left out. Relationships are work!

I'd give fuzzy approval to the idea of compartmentalizing your feelings about the meta. On the one hand, for you to go on about what a cad and a bounder he is may give you catharsis, but it will affect your wife and, thus, your marriage. On the other hand, you shouldn't necessarily hide your lack of being impressed by him. You have enough factual information for that to be clearly understood. Taking the high road and being polite will probably work better for you from this point onward.

Screw him. You're both better off without a drama mama like that in your life. Your wife really needs to reasses her anger with you for "messing" it up. It's all on that guy. I'm guessing after meeting you he figured out he wasn't going to be able to cowboy/primary switch your wife, got jealous and freaked.

I don’t know if that’s what he wants. He’s told her that our marriage is the most important part of this to him. I’ve never had a functional conversation with him, so I have to take my wife’s word for it.

This guy sounds insecure and probably is a bad fit for you both. Doesn't sound like your fault. Your wife shouldn't blame you for this, and if she holds it against you, you need to talk it out as that seems unfair to you.

And yeah, you went overboard trying to apologise. The guy clearly made up his mind really quickly, was very disrespectful, and it would have been better for you to just let it go.

Hope the next time goes better. These things don't always work out the way we hope they will, but next time can be better. Good luck.

As a woman who is in a relationship that is somewhat poly (I say somewhat because we're not currently seeing anyone but each other, but have in the past and are open to it again), this is a huge no go for me. My Fiance doesn't have to be fucking the other guy I'm seeing or even best friends, but there is no way in hell I'd let someone talk to him like that. I would break it off with that guy. He's clearly trying to start some shit between you and your wife by claiming you were demeaning. Talk to your wife.

Yikes. His intense reaction and not resolving it with you are definitely red flags! I’m with you. Also can’t blame wife for her feelings. She’s still excited and caught up in NRE. She only knows what he has shown her which is probably the best sides of himself. I wouldn’t take her reaction as a reflection of you or your relationship with her. This is a touchy situation. You don’t want to push too hard. If he is shit, he could try manipulating her against you. But you also don’t want to let it go completely and send a signal that this new guy is OK behaving like that. Continue to be supportive and patient. And when you point out things, focus on your delivery that way it doesn’t sound like you’re attacking him at all. That would backfire.

I’ve dated a lot of manipulative & immature people. The signs are clear as day immediately. I also know what it feels like when your family and friends and trying to show you what you don’t see. It’s fucking tricky.

Personally, I would be concerned for her safety with that kind of emotional volatility. I might also be concerned that he's seeing you as a threat in some way, and I don't think that's super healthy for a poly relationship. It's good to be supportive as long as she's willing to listen to your concerns about him and just keep them in mind. Maybe not take unnecessary risks until/unless the strain improves some. Not all meta relationships are particularly close, but I don't think it's healthy to maintain outright active anger toward the person. That would be a lot like harboring hate for her close brother or another family member she's really close to. It seems better to me to try to come to an accord.

If he is unable or unwilling to work on that, it would be a concern, to me.

I think the accord will be me distancing him from my life. He’s not my partner and just because I think X of him doesn’t mean I have to let it consume my mind or take up space in my relationship with my wife. That said, her continuing to see him without vocalizing some concern about his actions absolutely diminishes my respect for her partner decision making skills. She’s got NRE for a person I don’t like - for good reason. Plain and simple.

It sounds like a big part of this is that you feel extremely disappointed that your wife got mad at you for his actions, ignored your feelings, moved on as if nothing happened, and didn't stand up for you and ask him to apologize.

Then, you mix this disappointment with feelings of embarrassment and shame. You feel embarrassed that you were the one to apologize, ashamed that you groveled to appease him and your wife when maybe they should be the one asking for your forgiveness.

You also have the right philosophy towards metas. You seem experienced. You don't have to be friends. You don't have to like each other. You shouldn't be hostile but you don't gotta be buds either.

What all this leads me to wonder (and I could be totally totally totally off-base here, but it's just food for thought: you may actually have resentment towards your wife building because of how she handled this situation (and how you had to respond to her) and that resentment is being redirected towards the meta as the "source" of this conflict.

If so, this is a common poly mistake. You know this already I'm sure, but relationships (you and her, she and him) are mutually-exclusive and independent of each other. If your relationship is having some conflict, it's usually because something is up with your relationship, not their relationship. But often when you're mad at a meta for causing problems in your relationship, that's redirected emotion. The problem isn't that this meta sucks, the problem is that your wife knew the reaction was crappy and put all the emotional labor on you. You had to apologize, you had to take blame.

Again, I could be totally off-base. But if you think about this further and feel that I'm right, you must address it. Resentment is a poison because resentment is a filter that every other action goes through.

She is late to your home-cooked dinner one day, something that didn't bother you before, and suddenly you can't stop thinking about how disrespectful that is. You normally have date night on Friday evenings but meta had an important gallery-opening she attended instead and you said it was okay so you shouldnt be mad and this doesnt normally bother you but now it does and god dammit why is this making me so damn mad??

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It sounds like a big part of this is that you feel extremely disappointed that your wife got mad at you for his actions, ignored your feelings, moved on as if nothing happened, and didn't stand up for you and ask him to apologize.

Then, you mix this disappointment with feelings of embarrassment and shame. You feel embarrassed that you were the one to apologize, ashamed that you groveled to appease him and your wife when maybe they should be the one asking for your forgiveness.

What all this leads me to wonder (and I could be totally totally totally off-base here, but it's just food for thought: you may actually have resentment towards ***your wife*** building because of how ***she*** handled this situation (and how you had to respond to her) and that resentment is being redirected towards the meta as the "source" of this conflict.

If so, this is a common poly mistake. You know this already I'm sure, but relationships (you and her, she and him) are mutually-exclusive and independent of each other. If your relationship is having some conflict, it's usually because something is up with *your* relationship, not ***their*** relationship. But often when you're mad at a meta for causing problems in your relationship, that's redirected emotion.

Again, I could be totally off-base. But if you think about this further and feel that I'm right, you must address it. Resentment is a poison because resentment is a filter that every other action goes through.

It can feel like admitting an issue with a partner is akin to admitting that there is an issue with the whole venture into poly in the beginning. If this is all new she may be defensive not so much because she thinks he is right, but because she is worried admitting he has issues will translate into the idea that poly is a bad idea, or that he's not an allowable partner.

She’s a total boss and has a pretty good grasp of how nuanced and complicated this is. She also knows that this isn’t how things always are. We’ve both had other lovers before - he’s just the first one I don’t like.

How new to poly are y'all? My thoughts are pretty much in line with the rest of the thread. If you/wife are new(er) to poly, a lack of perspective on it (from your wife's POV) could be contributing to the idea that it has to work with THIS ONE RIGHT HERE because there won't be another one/etc.

I personally think the wife is being selfish. She should respect the marriage first and stand up for her husband. Instead, she got angry and claimed that he is ruining what she has with the other guy. I've met volatile people like the other guy. He's emotionally immature, sensitive, implosive, and doesn't know how to stand up for himself. Argues at a distance, doesn't leave room for the possibility of misunderstandings. He's toxic.

It's hard for us to comment fully without having been there, as with all human interactions. But... trust your gut. In the last year, I doubted my gut, and also didnt heed my partner's thoughts, only to have those red flags impale me some months later.

I am sorry, but, no. If this happened the way you describe, and I have no reason to doubt you, then no, there is no indication that your behavior is the issue here.

This is the behavior of a person, who uses this kind of blowup and then ... "gracefully" ... acquiescing to a continuation of his relationship with your wife, who uses this stuff to control and abuse. She needs to, for your and her sake, get outta there.

If he blew up like this with you, that's an escalation pattern. He likely did/does smaller versions of those dramatic events with her, which can lead to the kind of attachment she seems to display. Sooner or later, he'll use the escalation to drive more wedges between you two, the first one is, according to you, already planted with you having a hard time not to respect her less.

Poly can lead to massive pain, this way. Find a way to get out of this spiral, and quickly.

I have a simple rule for everyone in our lives: Are they good to me/my partner? Are they good to and for our relationship? And are they good to themselves. If those don't apply, I advise against with my partner or end it for me, if it's in my life.

That’s an incredible set of rules. I guess I’ve been living with the mantra that I can’t choose her partners and I don’t have to like her partners. But this rings really true to me. If he isn’t good to me, what makes me think he’s good to my wife? If he hasn’t been good for my marriage, what makes me think that will change?

I also need to acknowledge that I have trauma of abandonment that definitely comes up and he’s lit that entirely on fire.

He's either a crazy person or you left something out of this story. What were the two of you joking about? What did you say in the minutes before he reacted?

This sounds very stressful and I'm sorry. From your post it's really not clear what happened. I have a feeling, while he's handling it badly, you're bringing something to the interaction that's not good. You sound very worked up.

Maybe he is a crazy person and that's it. But then why include all these details but not the details about the conversation that precipitated the drama?

That's not weird or immature at all. Maybe I'm exaggerating but it sounds like this guy doesn't have the emotional maturity or ability for that relationship. Especially if he ignores your message but responds to her.

You don't have to like each other but you have to respect each other as metas, adults, and humans.

Some of the language you are using here / used with him could have struck him as creepy or even homosexual in nature to be frank, predisposing him to be weirded out by you if he doesn't get along with that type of personality.

Telling him you love him and want to lift him up when you've only just met? I'm all for expressing empathy but this just going to come across strange to most people. Your responses in this thread are also... almost eerily determined to find agreement at times and use gentle language.

I think it's possible that he was disconcerted by you just by who you are and how you talk, which led to him interpreting the joke as much worse than it was.

I can totally see that. I’m a cis-White male who rides the gender line in some peculiar ways. In particular, I’m an incredibly emotive and communicative person. Perhaps too much. This could be a case of that. I’m 36. He’s 28. That could have something to do with the gap in emotional awareness. I’ve been in open relationships for 10 years, this is his first. All sorts of murky waters.

Personal opinion is you shouldn’t let a guy you dislike and treats you like shit to be sleeping with your wife. That’s a grade A level of messed up in my opinion. This guy who is an asshole to you is sharing the most intimate moments possible with your wife.

Don't incessantly harp on how much you don't like the guy or anything, but absolutely do make sure you voice your concerns about him. You need to let your wife know if you're concerned that she's entering a relationship with an emotionally abusive partner. It might open her eyes to what a bad situation she's getting herself into, or at least give you the opportunity to let you know that you'll be there to support her if she realizes what a mistake she's made.

It seems to me, based on everything you have said in this thread, that your primary relationship is very unhealthy, something I have not noticed others suggest.

I have never seen so many red flags in one thread in /r/sex/r/polyamory/r/nonmonogomy or any other sex positive subs. This is not good. You need to communicate with your wife on your boundaries.

The fact she attacked you for expressing your feelings is a HUGE red flag.

The fact he is "willing to continue" dating her is a HUGE red flag.

The fact that he threw a temper tantrum in a PUBLIC place is a HUGE red flag.

The fact that you are apologizing for HIS behavior is a HUGE red flag.

The fact that he doesn't seem to accept he did anything wrong is a HUGE red flag.

The fact that SHE doesn't seem to accept he did anything wrong is a HUGE red flag.

The fact she didn't want you to meet him is a HUGE red flag.

The fact he can't treat you with respect is a HUGE red flag.

The fact he hasn't talked with you since the "incident" that he caused is a HUGE red flag.

The fact she still wants to date someone that seems so irreconcilable hard to communicate or generally be around is a HUGE red flag.

The fact you hate him, and he seems to hate you, is a HUGE red flag.

The fact is, the majority of these are big enough red flags in themselves that they are often deal breakers for some relationships. I think you need to calibrate your primary relationship, and see if poly is a lifestyle both of you truly want.

I had someone react to me like this when I was the new partner. I'm pretty sure she was trying to prevent her boyfriend from dating anyone else, and I almost broke up with him over it because I didn't want to receive that much hostility in a relationship. We broke up for other reasons, but I can't say her anger wasn't a major factor.

I think this guy might be trying to paint you as a bad guy to your wife. You might want to ask her to tell you the things he says about you, so she isn't getting a constant stream of shit about you.

I’ve asked the she step up if he tries to villainize me about Friday night. She hasn’t talked to him about it. He hasn’t responded to anything I’ve written. He has been sending her lots of flirty memes though. He told her he thinks what happened was a fluke and that it won’t likely happen again. And because of that, he’s “willing” to continue seeing her. That choice of words even seems skeezy to me. Ugh.

It’s obviously what he wants, she knows it, but she’s in love with his dick, and soon she’ll think she’s in love with him.

He’ll keep pushing it, first it was you belittled him, soon it will be something else. She’ll probably stop having sex with you altogether because he’ll make her life miserable when she does. It’s all downhill from there.

EDIT ( Disclaimer: this is not about gender, but about sexual polarity. )

A problem with masculinity ( an inconvenient truth ) is that someone is superior. It's an opportunity to evolve ideally, but often becomes conflict due to raw insecurity.

Femininity will often need a break from a superior consciousness and play with lesser masculinity. Arguably they aggregate masculinity to lessers which lessers crave.

But directly encountering a greater masculinity can be too much. Voices in your own mind drown out the greater because you needed it cloaked as femininity to digest it.

Polyamory is a phenomenal way to evolve humanity proactively. But embrace your superior state and understand your wife has the high ground already and is taking on a less challenging relationship, which is fine and good for a lesser to benefit from. It's helping humanity evolve... Unless she cannot see him wasting your time through her.

She needs to move on to someone grateful for her and your presence through her, and perhaps find someone closer to or greater than you. You seem prepared to grow. That is a rare attainment. I wouldn't presume male metas will all posses this quality.

But directly encountering a greater masculinity is too much. Voices in your own mind drown out the greater because you needed it cloaked as femininity to digest it.

This is such a bad hot take post. Please stop boiling problems down to just "well that's masculinity for ya!" It's unproductive, doesn't address the problem, and allows toxic masculinity to continue; exact same as saying "boys will be boys" while they roofie girls' drinks at house parties.

And this EXACT behavior is in no way limited to men; I have experienced it directly with women and men alike.

But hey, I'll give you the floor. Care to explain how you separate masculinity/femininity from male/female? Care to explain why you're saying that both are pretty rigidly defined as inherently acting in certain ways? Will you defend "an inconvenient truth" and how that's not the foundation of "[boys] will be [boys]" (for context, I've heard this about girls, I've heard this about enbies, so I'm not going to allow you to singularly tie that to just a male/masc problem).

And uh, while we're at it, "sexual polarity"? Are you the type to look at every same-sex relationship as someone being "the guy" or "the girl" in a relationship? Because, it honestly seems like you're one step away from saying that.

Wow, the level of downvotes for everything I have to say here is breathtaking. I am going to wear this though because it's a very controversial area, and very misunderstood. I stand by what I said, and you definitely locked on to the key distinction here, which I appreciate. I love this area of observation, contemplation, and practice.

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First of all, I agree completely with the insinuation that polarity shifts moment to moment, and no, I was not at all headed toward asserting that members of a relationship adopt a fixed role or tone. So no, in same-sex relationships I would not say that one person plays out "the guy" and one person plays out "the girl" ... I think that's wrong, too.

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It's worth mentioning here that a lot of heterosexual relationships tend, against prevailing assumptions, to the woman being more masculine and the man being more feminine, if the dynamic of all moments were graphed.

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This being said, individuals do tend toward certain behaviors. More by habit than anything else, like how handwriting tends to keep a certain look overall, per person, though varying instance by instance. Obviously there are outliers and special cases, but I'm talking about the vast majority of people: we have traits and patterns to us.

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The image I tend to view this through is the Tao, with aspects Yin and Yang, which map nicely to Femininity and Masculinity. In any situation, the polarity will shift back and forth, so fast some times it's indistinguishable anymore, but it's not about roles or structure or identities, it's about electricity and exchange and the same type of reason why water flows down and not up unless it's a gas form. There is a certain gravity in a moment, and unlike fixed gravity which always seem to pull down, the moment can be all over the place. This extends as deep as into thought, and intention, and pure feeling, not even physically acted out. Anyway, the speed of this flipping back and forth between polarities is exhilarating but can be terrifying, and thus, yes, there is a common configuration where people stick to one pattern throughout their natural born life, as well as within an entire relationship. I do not condone or advocate for that. The Tao or whole-human outlook here is to see that being dynamic is a risk, just like driving fast is a risk, or diving deep is a risk, and one is well advised to prepare for and take that risk, as their life.

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This comes full circle to the OP and "his" post, and all the implications of what he said, which made it much more likely to be a masculine vs. masculine clash/retreat than a masculine vs. feminine flattening/damage type dynamic. Many people said "you went out on a limb to follow his flippant attitude and the situation made less and less sense" which is to say: provide structure here, project something sane and rational, because you probably weren't being a dick, someone just wasn't expecting so much of anything from you, no matter what it was. They got offended rather than rolling with it, or being in the moment at all, which lead to my conclusion that there was no polarity. People talking past each other, flight occurred after a fight moment, all from a large imbalance in a given moment.

It might seem like I assume a lot. But I came at this from my experience of being in moments like this; what came after, what came before, the entire landscape of the lives involved, their intersection, etc. And there was rigidity on one end ( the meta ) and over fluidity on the other ( the OP ) and it's all insanely nuanced and weird to handle in terminology available, because everyone is all over the place ( normally good ) but tending toward what I said. And for the majority of cases in the popular world today, my guess would be right ~80% of the time. Again, not coming from fixed roles, or anything like that. Just tendencies, obvious dynamics at play, and then an educated guess.

This being said, individuals to tend toward certain behaviors. More by habit than anything else, like how handwriting tends to keep a certain look overall, per person, though varying instance by instance. Obviously there are outliers and special cases, but I'm talking about the vast majority of people: we have traits and patterns to us.

You're either crazy, or have ascended to a higher plane of existence than one I live on. Regardless, I have no real response to what you're actually trying to convey (because at this point, I'm too lost). But I will say with confidence that there was a communication breakdown between what you meant and what you said, because the words you chose here are different than before.

I've read through everything, and while I might not agree completely with /u/digitalextremist, it does seem that you had a knee jerk reaction to some of the terminology they used, and not the content of what they said.

Like you both are talking about different things with you continuing to fall back on the most common talking points, and /u/digitalextremist trying to get you to see past those and see what they're trying to say.

I just had to jump in, because I see this happening so much today, with one party dead set on misunderstanding another. We should be making an effort to understand each other and see past communication errors.