If we call ascension "retcon", then it should send you through a new series of quest (with some kind of non-class-skill bonus), but as the same quest. If you want to play something else, you can always use the Transmogrifer.

The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone--October Project: "Dark Time"

How about this: What if you had to go through a series of challenges, puzzles and battles to get to Mick. Once you got there you had to defeat him. Only after you beat him once, there would be a second stage of the fight! And after that, there would be a third stage. Only you wouldn't need to kill him a third time, instead you'd need some kind of special weapon with you that would stop all of his attacks and send them back at him. After the fight was over, some kind of portal would appear, and once you choosed to walk through it, you would go to some kind of place like heaven, only it would be really boring there. Then you'd go to some kind of hotel that allowed you to reincarnate. And you could choose what kind of hero you would want to be, and would be born as a new character. Now you wouldn't get all of your items back; instead, you'd only get to take a certain amount a day, say for instance 20, and they'd all be in some storage thing. I don't know, I'm just pulling this stuff out of my ass.

Wow, that's probably the best idea I have heard yet about ascension. The only issue is the lack of a feeling of accomplishment. There has to be one really satisfying moment that makes you kinda say "I have beaten this game, and can't wait to start over."

so since you've already said in the transmogrifier that there's a VERY GOOD CHANCE you'll llose all your powers, why not give a chance of keeping one of them every time you transmogrify, with the chance of keeping increasing per level (so that people can't just spam transmogrify), so that eventually all the skills are gettable?

Transmogrification was originally a way for alpha testers to work over the classes without making 4 accounts. It's stuck around, and it's a play style people enjoy, but it was never intended to be TH's version of ascension. And the "very good chance" line was added because people were shocked they lost their powers. It was trying to be more subtle than "You'll lose every skill except passable pilot and heroic efficiency, so don't send bug reports when you lose all your skills, XP, stats, HP and PP".

As KOL-eque as it might be I think the idea of keeping a skill is a solid one and allows you to customize your character and also offers more incentives for people to keep playing.

What I thought might be cool is build on the warning sentance about the transmogrifier so taht there is a CHANCE you keep a skill. Make the chance a percentage equal to your level -50. This way a level 150 character has a 100% chance of keeping a skill.

Not sure if I should start a new thread or just continue this one, but I keep thinking about ascension/retcon/whatever, and I think it's something that needs to become part of the game sooner rather than later to keep Twilight vital. I think people run through the current content too quickly, and run out of things to do too quickly, and with something like retconscension I would hope we could keep more people around longer.

I absolutely hate to give deadlines, especially in public, because I'm pretty likely to not make them. But this is the sort of thing that I'd like to see complete before the second anniversary of the game. Giving myself some breathing room, that means I need to get most of the things in line within, say, six months.

So the real question is, what does it really take to have retcon working?

1) Level 10 and 11 quest at minimum, because they tell most of the story I want to tell.

2) I've got glimmerings of levels 12-16 quests, which is where I really want it to end, but I'm not sure if I've got enough time for them. Of course not doing them now and trying to add them later may come with its own troubles.

3) Decisions about several ascensiony factors, including
a) types of runs: softcore, hardcore, casual, no-IotM? Bad moon equivalent where no permed skills are a factor? Is there a more truly level playing field we could pick? Are there mechanics other than "the pull" for softcore alternatives?

b) skill perming. I think this is one of the most appealing factors of KoL, so I'll absolutely have it in some fashion, but there's room for variety. For instance, do all skills need to be permable? Can some be specific to a class and never permed? Should there be extra skills that aren't class specific? This is also obviously affected greatly by the ascension choices: if there's no hardcore, say, or no softcore, then we might not have two levels of perming. Or could there be three levels if there's some other option out there? Or a way to play a run without accessing permed skills that's not like Bad Moon, to remember how a vanilla character works?

c) Ways to introduce variety into successive runs. I think reputation will be one of these--in a fast run there won't necessarily be freedom to switch back and forth easily, and this can be expanded, maybe even be a factor in a quest. Still, there's room for other options. Choices in quests which determine options in later quests. Multiple rewards for quests, depending on how they're solved. Stuff like that. There might be an obvious parallel between the teet/booze/oxy paths and KoL, but are they really interesting, and is that worth copying? What about a no-sidekick run? Or restrictions on transportation? What else might be interesting?

d) Possibly reconsidering how sidekicks work. There seems to be a general dissatisfaction with the current method of having them as special buffs, and a lot of requests for more permanent options. I've been fighting it, but if I'm going to mess with this mechanic it should be before retcon is an option.

e) Leaderboards. What would really compel people to compete? Most basic is total number of retcons, and speed (in terms of minutes rather than turns, probably) for a run. I suppose broken down by paths, if we do that. Lifetime stats? Lifetime PvP (which needs its own improvements, clearly)?

4) Consider what else might be needed in the game to make it work. Some possibilities:

a) Leagues (or clans, or guilds, or whatever). Not really required for retcon itself, but it's a popular request, and gives some leaderboard angles.

b) revamps to some of the existing quests. Level 9 needs more content. Level 5 (casino) might be too long. Level 3 (Mind Bender) might be too trivial upon repetition, as is just about any riddle.

c) More holidays? I know holidays are fun on their own. The ones that currently exist would mostly interfere with a run, rather than enhance one. Do we need some that are more predictable and/or more limited in scope that might add to strategy? Or is it better if they're unpredictable and disassociated from retcon-style play?

d) Add a few more skills to fill in the gaps.

What else is really necessary to make replayability work? Or what could serve to improve the experience upon replaying the same basic set of events for dozens of times?

Mostly I'm just talking out loud here. I make no guarantees of including anything suggested here, and I admit a lot of decisions will probably be made on my own, or behind closed doors with some testers. Still, other than the one example of another game that happens to do this very well, there's nearly a wide-open range of options for how this could work, and I'm sure some players will have some interesting suggestions.

At the most basic, I'm committed to the idea of being able to replay the quests, and within that guideline I think it's really only compelling if there's some means of improving your character with each attempt at a replay. Beyond that, anything could work.

Socket wrote:I've been chatting with MagiNinja about possibilities for a more "modular" ascension model, where choosing things like pulls/no-pulls, access to permed skills and even things like how long "ronin" lasts might all be independent choices that could all have independent impacts on your "ascension rewards".

I quite like this, actually. It reminds me of that site you can do ascension searches by specific criteria. But this would have ingame support, so you can be on the top of the caffeine-fee 5-skill 40-pull 300-turn-ronin Psion run leaderboard! :/Actually, maybe something like each restriction having a point value?

Socket wrote:For example, for the masochistic, what about a "powerless" run, where your PP can never rise above 0?