Originally posted by EcksMany people wanted the main titles unified, but now it leaves too many big names at the top of the card and only one title match. I liked the brand split.

But that's what makes a World Title a World Title. More competition, REAL competition, heavy competition, makes the title more valuable. More value = more prestige.

Having two world titles was always like in football, having one team be the NFC Champions and another be the AFC Champions and not having a Super Bowl.

The WWF made it work with one world title for decades, and what needs to change is the writing, not going back to an idea that made the biggest prize two half measures.

No half measures. Merging the world titles is the best thing they've done in years. It's just too bad they've done it with this Orton reign, and now potentially this Batista reign.

Originally posted by StaggerLeeTommy Dreamer went a few years without ever beating Raven, and was the most over face in ECW. You don't need a win, let alone a title, to be over.

Jericho will tell you, the title is just a prop to further story lines and not having one is not the end of the world.

If he wins, then you expect him to keep winning and then he becomes Cena.

Is that what you really want?

You need equilibrium. I actually think they handled it perfectly at SummerSlam, with him wining the title then getting screwed to set up a future chase, but every chase has to come to a head at some point and if you hold off for too long, Creative tends to overthink it and we don't get a real payoff.

I don't want to say "We're heading into WCW territory here," but we're really entering a similar territory where management keeps deciding who is to be champion when the fans are ready for someone else to be holding the belt and, if they keep doing this, every increase in numbers they're getting now is going to decline, just like WCW's did.

Originally posted by EcksMany people wanted the main titles unified, but now it leaves too many big names at the top of the card and only one title match. I liked the brand split.

But that's what makes a World Title a World Title. More competition, REAL competition, heavy competition, makes the title more valuable. More value = more prestige.

Having two world titles was always like in football, having one team be the NFC Champions and another be the AFC Champions and not having a Super Bowl.

Well, it was only "always" like that once they started having guys appear on both shows all the time. When they actually had two separate franchises that they kept separate, it was more like having the AFL and the NFL and no Super Bowl, rather than like the AFC and NFC.

The WWF made it work with one world title for decades, and what needs to change is the writing, not going back to an idea that made the biggest prize two half measures.

Eh, for most of those years they had a small fraction of the TV and PPV time to fill that they do today, so I don't really see the relevance. The job of keeping pro wrestling entertaining is much more difficult for WWE today than it was in Hulk Hogan's day, or in Bret Hart's day, or even in Steve Austin's day pre-Smackdown.

No half measures. Merging the world titles is the best thing they've done in years.

I agree that if they are no longer going to have a "Smackdown roster" and a "Raw roster," then doing away with the titles was the best choice. I would have preferred they never did away with the split, though.

Originally posted by StaggerLeeTommy Dreamer went a few years without ever beating Raven, and was the most over face in ECW. You don't need a win, let alone a title, to be over.

Jericho will tell you, the title is just a prop to further story lines and not having one is not the end of the world.

Exactly. I believe somebody suggested they appease the fans at Royal Rumble by calling an audible and have Roman Reigns win the Royal Rumble. Then he can lose the title shot to Batista at Elimination Chamber. Really? Reigns getting an imaginary #1 contender "title" and jobbing to Batista at the next PPV is better than seeing what happens with Reigns, Rollins and Ambrose?

To me storylines are a better indicator of who the WWE is using correctly than title belts. Daniel Bryan is always on TV, always has a storyline and always gets to wrestle. I don't see what the problem is. Yeah, Orton and Batista are going to wrestle for the title because Orton and Batista without the title isn't very interesting but Bryan will be interesting no matter what he does at Wrestlemania. If I was making a list of guys I thought the WWE wasn't using properly Daniel Bryan would be far down the list.

Same for the tag titles. New Age Outlaws have the titles. Who cares? Are you interested in who has the titles tonight at Raw or whether Cody Rhodes and Goldust argue over Goldust eliminating Cody? I'm more interested in the latter.

Originally posted by StaggerLeeTommy Dreamer went a few years without ever beating Raven, and was the most over face in ECW. You don't need a win, let alone a title, to be over.

Jericho will tell you, the title is just a prop to further story lines and not having one is not the end of the world.

Exactly. I believe somebody suggested they appease the fans at Royal Rumble by calling an audible and have Roman Reigns win the Royal Rumble. Then he can lose the title shot to Batista at Elimination Chamber. Really? Reigns getting an imaginary #1 contender "title" and jobbing to Batista at the next PPV is better than seeing what happens with Reigns, Rollins and Ambrose?

To me storylines are a better indicator of who the WWE is using correctly than title belts. Daniel Bryan is always on TV, always has a storyline and always gets to wrestle. I don't see what the problem is. Yeah, Orton and Batista are going to wrestle for the title because Orton and Batista without the title isn't very interesting but Bryan will be interesting no matter what he does at Wrestlemania. If I was making a list of guys I thought the WWE wasn't using properly Daniel Bryan would be far down the list.

Same for the tag titles. New Age Outlaws have the titles. Who cares? Are you interested in who has the titles tonight at Raw or whether Cody Rhodes and Goldust argue over Goldust eliminating Cody? I'm more interested in the latter.

The fact that people can basically blow off the titles and not care about who holds them or whomever fights for them isn't that interesting tells you the problem with the product right now.

(edited by DirtyMikeSeaver on 27.1.14 1439)Kevin Kelly: "Mr. Austin, would you like to comment on Wade Keller's Take that endorsing the XFL hurts your anti-authority character?"

Steve Austin: "Oh shit, he actually said that? I thought the boys in the back were ribbing me!"

Kelly: "No, he really said that. Did they tell you the part about you sitting in the stands, looking all skeptical?"

Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaverThe fact that people can basically blow off the titles and not care about who holds them or whomever fights for them isn't that interesting tells you the problem with the product right now.

People have been expressing this sentiment basically as long as I've been discussing wrestling on the Internet, and I presume much further back than that. The most interesting angles occasionally not involving the title or any title is hardly a new phenomenon. It was like 15 years ago that Vince Russo expressed the exact same sentiment as the post you quoted, for crying out loud. In 1997, Undertaker went through a bunch of boring, pointless title feuds while Bret Hart vs Steve Austin was the hottest feud in the company, but Austin and Hart never once fought for a title.

Not to mention, Quezzy's main point was about angles as indicators of how a company views a wrestler. See Rock vs Cena headlining Wrestlemania 28, even though the title wasn't involved in that year-long feud.

People care about the title. If they didn't they wouldn't have gone ape shit last night and all the other nights when the guy they want is nowhere near the title match. Once you view your titles as props, you lose. WCW thought the same way and look where they are at now.

Jericho will also tell you what Cena did to Nexus was fucking stupid as well and Edge will back him up on it. That is what WWE is doing now. They are taking what is their hottest product and moving it to the side to get some "crossover" appeal which more times than not blows up in their face. We are not even talking about Bryan getting the title, we are talking about him getting a chance to get the title. Tommy Dreamer beat Raven in tag matches and cost him titles. Also, Bryan is more over than Tommy and I love Tommy Dreamer. Bryan deserves that title shot.

As for this nonsense about the fans causing problems. Its not the fans, its the product. Every fan has a right to cheer or boo, that is their right. If you don't like it, turn down the volume or stick your fingers in your ears like Vince and Company seem to do. Here is the thing, Pittsburgh is not Philly. I have been in Pittsburgh for WWE and Pens Playoff Games. I have never seen them this irate and I have been to playoff games where they lost and there were fights in the stands. I can't imagine what Philly or New York will be like let alone Mania.

I know Cleveland is where dreams go to die. Yet, tonight Cleveland, I need you to be at your best. I need you to remember every John Elway Playoff TD that eliminated you from the Super Bowl. I need you to remember all those Jordan wins. I need to you remember Art Moddell and him taking your Super Bowl winning team that bolted to Baltimore. Keep that hate bottled up and then when HHH or Orton or Cena or Batista makes some what is best for business speech just unload on him like he was Art Moddell or Jordan or Elway. Because tonight, its all up to you and as a great man once said " I believe, Essa, I believe." This Steel City kid believes in your ability to convey your vast disappointment in everything. I believe.

The Wee Baby Sheamus.Twitter: @realjoecarfley its a bit more toned down there. A bit.

Originally posted by lotjxI know Cleveland is where dreams go to die. Yet, tonight Cleveland, I need you to be at your best. I need you to remember every John Elway Playoff TD that eliminated you from the Super Bowl. I need you to remember all those Jordan wins. I need to you remember Art Moddell and him taking your Super Bowl winning team that bolted to Baltimore. Keep that hate bottled up and then when HHH or Orton or Cena or Batista makes some what is best for business speech just unload on him like he was Art Moddell or Jordan or Elway. Because tonight, its all up to you and as a great man once said " I believe, Essa, I believe." This Steel City kid believes in your ability to convey your vast disappointment in everything. I believe.

I wish I lived in Cleveland so that I could answer this call. This call for heroes. This call by a hero.

You have two titles. The world and the IC. You can only really focue on two fueds at a time, per the "you need to care about the titles" logic. That's four people total. Oh, forgot the US Title, make that six people total. What's the other 50 - 60 people supposed to fued about? You give them a program to keep them on tv and further their pressence on TV. That's what they do for DB and people lose their minds. Some of the hottest feuds ever didn't have a belt to center around.

Long story short, DB is on TV every week, he gets pops, he sells merch, and he fills 20 minutes of prime tv every week. Ite not like they shuffled him off tv and ignored him.

If this was boxing, where having a title really MEANT something, I could understand. But this is sports entertainment.

But they ARE the brand. They just are. If you want American pro wrestling, you're going to watch WWE. You're not seriously going to watch TNA or ROH.

Sure you are. If one is only emotionally invested in the ongoing adventures of the McMahon Family and John Cena, then yeah, they're not going to start watching TNA or ROH. The McMahons and Cena are not American pro wrestling as a whole though.

I've been reading most of the posts on this topic today, and I'm glad at this point that I didn't order the Rumble. I would consider myself a very casual fan at this point in time with pro wrestling as a whole, and really just come here to check out what is going on after the PPV and Raws in hope that one day things can get back to a level that would make me more interested in the product.

With that said, I have enjoyed some of the things that have happened over the past couple years. The summer of Punk, and watching the fans make Daniel Bryan into a superstar has got my interest, but not yet to the point to make me want to spend my money on a PPV. I think the last one I purchased was the first ECW/WWE PPV. Since then, not much has made me want to open up my wallet and buy what they are selling.

How many people on this board, are the same way? You enjoy pro wrestling still, but not enough to invest your money on the WWE's PPV's?

I have 2 sons who are starting to watch WWE and I would like to share the excitement and big shows with them, similar to the experiences I had when I was younger. They aren't quite old enough yet to "Get it", but they do enjoy watching a Raw or Smackdown replay. However I am not willing to shell out the cash for a PPV knowing that there is nothing that is going to happen that would justify the cost. Last night, I really did consider it. I've always enjoyed the Royal Rumble as a PPV, but was really on the fence whether they would finally pull the trigger on letting Daniel Bryan take a hold of the reigns. I took the stance that if it did happen, I'd order the reply to watch it.

I can't help but think that I'm not the only person who feels this way, and the WWE is leaving a lot of money on the table at this point with the "casual" fan such as myself.

15 years ago, I would have bought whatever they wanted to sell me if I had the means that I do today. I was far more invested in the characters and story lines. It seems now that at any point that they start to get something original and interesting, the shelf life doesn't last long enough for a fan to care, or it gets pushed aside for a Superstar past their prime or for a storyline that's been done before.

Not sure my point in any of this other than I have found myself very interested at times in the past couple years, and willing to jump back into the fold as a fan, but always find myself ending up not "trusting" the WWE to produce something I want to spend money in seeing. I still will watch the Undertaker vs. Mankind Hell in a Cell and wish I would have purchased that when it happened. Same for Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold at WrestleMania. I can't think of one PPV in the past 10 years that has left me feeling that way.

I went from almost ordering the Rumble and most likely WrestleMania this year to see "the moment" to now not really sure I care to order WrestleMania. They will have to do a pretty hard sale at this point in time to get this casual fans money. And by the grumblings on this board, in time, they may have a hard time getting money from their more invested fan base.

I loved Roman Reigns in the Rumble. He really should have won it. Beating Kane's record of eliminations was a great thing. Big things are heading his way.

Cesaro is over. Watch NXT whenever he appears - it's ridiculous how the crowd reacts to him. The Full Sail crowd is quite interesting in how they react to superstars, but Cesar could be a white hot babyface one day.

El Torito in the Rumble...both good and bad. Good for comedic relief but bad as it was a spot that someone else could have used. El Torito is a lot of fun to watch, as are El Matadores - but seriously, they could have put Zack Ryder or someone more deserving in.

Alexander Rusef is great on NXT, but his manager/spokesperson Lana plays the generic heel foreign role with a screechy voice that makes Vickie Guererro sound like a classically trained vocalist. Instead of Rusef, maybe Sami Zayn would have been a better choice.

Was CM Punk injured during the Rumble? He was in on the ground in the corner for a long time.

Lesnar destroying Big Show was uncomfortable to watch. The Wyatt family destroying Cena...not so much.

Originally posted by QuezzyExactly. I believe somebody suggested they appease the fans at Royal Rumble by calling an audible and have Roman Reigns win the Royal Rumble. Then he can lose the title shot to Batista at Elimination Chamber. Really? Reigns getting an imaginary #1 contender "title" and jobbing to Batista at the next PPV is better than seeing what happens with Reigns, Rollins and Ambrose?

It strays too far into armchair booking, I know, but this is one of those cases where it's easy to have your cake, and eat it too, if the end goal is to break The Shield up, and strap the rocket to Reigns' ass in the process.

Assuming the audible gets called last night, Reigns wins- Batista starts running the win down, it's a fluke, he doesn't deserve it, etc, etc, leading to Reigns-Batista at EC. Batista goes over, either with Shield interference on his behalf, if you want to go the direct route, or by the Shield botching interference for Reigns, or just walking out on him if you want to do a slower burn. Presto, change-o, Batista is now going to Wrestlemania to face the champ, you can blow up The Shield, either at 'Mania, or somewhere between 'Mania and SummerSlam, and Reigns can get the Jesus push come the summer.

The bigger thing is more that the crowd response was straying from "We're being smarky, and having fun with it", and it's becoming more "We really, REALLY don't like what you're giving us, and we're gonna be vocal about it." And the WWE either wouldn't, or couldn't recognize it. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide which option is worse in that case.

I agree with the assesment that this is no longer "we're being smarky" but right now it's the crowd giving voice to what they want to see. And while Bryan is the face of this, it's not 100% about him anymore. There was a big chant for Reigns when it was him and Sheamus/Batista. They were chanting for something new and different.

I don't think Bryan needs a match for the title to make the crowd happy. They need to give him a match that gives the crowd the satisfaction of seeing their hero win the big match at the big stage. That can be him taking out HHH, or Orton/Cena for the title or even a crazy match against Wyatt.Instead they see him seemingly being ignored. No matter if WWE is doing it on purpose now or not, the crowds seems to have noticed. Yes he gets 20 minutes a week and has great matches. Yes, he is pretty much main event level. But it doesn't feel that way.

While I don't see things negatively (actually I feel bad for guys like Batista and Sheamus that probably have the best intentions) I do think they need to roll with this. Use it to show that they ARE all about giving us the best product possible. And you get that product by having a cheering crowd in the background.

The show itself? Bryan-Wyatt was great. the big man can work. The sister A into the wall was awesome.Lesnar-Show...meh.I get that htey wanted to show how ruthless Brock can be, but this wasn't the way to do it.Cena-Orton..Average match that started slow and got fun when they started doing eachother moves. That did make it a 'classic rules' match since that happened all the time in the Attitude era.

The Rumble match was alright. Ignoring the elephant in the room, it was well planned with some nice spots. Cesaro got to shine, The Shield looked great (and omg I loved how Dean tried to sneak up on Roman) and Kofi's spot was pretty crazy.

Originally posted by lotjxI know Cleveland is where dreams go to die. Yet, tonight Cleveland, I need you to be at your best. I need you to remember every John Elway Playoff TD that eliminated you from the Super Bowl. I need you to remember all those Jordan wins. I need to you remember Art Moddell and him taking your Super Bowl winning team that bolted to Baltimore. Keep that hate bottled up and then when HHH or Orton or Cena or Batista makes some what is best for business speech just unload on him like he was Art Moddell or Jordan or Elway. Because tonight, its all up to you and as a great man once said " I believe, Essa, I believe." This Steel City kid believes in your ability to convey your vast disappointment in everything. I believe.

I don't always agree with lotjx's philosophies but I am now ready to run through a damn wall for the man.

Originally posted by JustinShapiro

Originally posted by HeimsBatista did indeed do a short mock YES at the top of the ramp on his way out, after flipping that guy off for whatever reason. He may complete the "half-assed token babyface run" portion of his return in record time.

Oh that's right! Good catch. It seemed good-natured to me, or at least a guy trying to act like a good sport.

I never get tired of telling the story of meeting Mick at Santa's Village in New Hampshire. It was a rainy day and there were about 20 people in the park that day. Mick probably thought he and his family were safe from fans. Nope. I was there. My kids thought I was insane. I've told the story so many times, my wife actually now tells it for me to get the story over quicker.