Post by clivethebarker on Jan 9, 2019 23:37:13 GMT -6

With every update with no useful content for six months, then a Christmas gift of tough luck, you don't get your platform etc. has leeched all the sympathy I have for the developers/publisher away at this point.

Purely subjective.

Based on the past six monthly updates before the December one:

Update #70 informed us of the release of download-codes for the Beta Backer Demo, which significantly expanded upon the available features & areas of the previous demo. It also allowed for feedback from backers to begin helping to identify bugs & other things that may need fixing.

Update #71 showed us examples of backer feedback that were addressed, and that they would place focus on fixing bugs. Many backers were also concerned about the lighting & lip-sync in the demo, so that was addressed as well.

Update #72 was when we were informed that the game would be delayed to 2019, and that the PS Vita version was dropped due to the system's discontinued support from Sony, also allowing for refunds to be issued.

Update #73 informed us of the release of demo keys for the GOG version of the Beta Backer Demo, and that all the feedback/bug reports had been received and compiled for review.

Update #74, aside from the Killer Barber enemy showcase (ignoring it), informs us of work being done on enemy placements for Nightmare Mode.

Update #75, again ignoring the new enemy showcase, announced that WayForward joined the project to help the development team fix more bugs & make further improvements. For something that this thread may consider "not useful content", plenty of people were making a big deal of WayForward coming aboard as if they were replacing DICO (which turned out false).

I'm not going to try changing your mind about the project at this point. It is however interesting, even a bit amusing, that you have such an opinion about the previous six updates.

Perhaps useful was the wrong word. Good news might be a better way to frame it. Alright, time for a perspective from a Linux player.

70- Not compatible with Linux/Mac

71- I concede that this could be good news, but not very encouraging that all the bugs had to be discovered by players rather than interal QA

72- Funny that Vita backers could get refunds but not for this newest round of dropping; not good news that a plaform was dropped and a giant indetermiate delay.

73- Again, nothing for Linux/Mac

74- Typical update, nothing big like a release window or something, how about a gameplay vid with these new models?

75- Really really great news, they had to bring people in at the 11th hour because the dev team can't get this done, and the project will probably get delayed further

Post by ssokolow on Jan 10, 2019 0:09:44 GMT -6

Alternately, require production of evidence (as in, Steam account name and purchase history, GOG purchase history, etc) that someone plays games on these platforms. It's not hard.

In the interest of fairness, I have to point out some flaws in that idea, despite it counting against my own efforts to get a refund:

GOG Problems:

GOG Galaxy has no Linux version and, even if it did, they've promised it will always be optional. (And I have a strict policy that non-games must be open-source... especially package managers like Galaxy.)

I get a strong impression that GOG isn't set up to query their logs to check who downloaded which platform-specific installers. (Though, if they are, they'll see me archiving the Linux and Windows installers for all the games I buy.)

GOG doesn't sell any Linux-only games.

Within my "no more than $5 for Windows-only games" policy, I've bought hundreds of Windows-only GOG games that either work in Wine now or were on such a rare discount (80%+ off) that I decided to buy them on the assumption that if Wine doesn't support them now, it'll support them eventually.

Steam Problems:

My Steam account exists only as a means to get Humble Bundle DRM-free downloads into my GOG library by redeeming the Steam keys so GOG Connect can see them. I don't actually play games through Steam.

Before they added support for redeeming in-browser, I redeemed Steam keys in a sandboxed-from-the-LAN Linux VM inside VirtualBox, which could just as easily have been running on a Windows host rather than Kubuntu Linux 14.04 LTS.

That said, the Qt/C++ Linux/Mac-only refund request tool idea would certainly weed out people who don't know how or are too lazy to install Linux in VirtualBox. (Though I'd probably still run it in a Linux-on-Linux VM as part of my policy on closed-source non-game software.)

A better solution would probably be to ask users to snap a photo of their computer while the monitors are displaying a clearly non-Windows, non-Mac desktop environment and hold a piece of paper in-frame containing the date and case number to prove that it wasn't just yanked off the 'net somewhere.

Simple, should be doable by anyone who at least knows someone with a cellphone or non-phone camera, and relies on the fact that cut-paste photoshopping is not easy to do convincingly.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. For people who don't have a desktop shape that almost never gets screenshotted, like me (1280x1024 + 1920x1080 + 1280x1024), probably best to have the "date and case number" on-screen, so the deceptive Windows backer can't just fullscreen an image of an appropriately-resolution'd Linux desktop before taking the photo.

Post by browren on Jan 10, 2019 7:16:41 GMT -6

ssokolow, those are all of course real problems, I have no idea if they are common problems or not.

Isn't it funny how us Linux users were told the entire time "trust us, we're going to get this out on your platform," then when 505 backs out, the Windows backers think we shouldn't get refunds because their trust levels are so low they think a ton of Windows backers will want refunds too?

The level of hypocrisy from both 505 and unaffected backers is just stunning here.

Post by XombieMike on Jan 10, 2019 8:09:03 GMT -6

browren please try and understand it's not a matter of trust levels, it's a matter of responsibility. It would be nothing short of project ending for all the other backers if refunds are taken advantage of. Do some quick math on how many people you would honestly think would want a refund and multiply that times the average tier. Then consider tax and Kickstarter fees. Then consider that money will be used from other aspects of the game if it's not a straight up project killer.

Your blanket insult of calling us hypocrites couldn't be more untrue. I honestly feel really bad for all Linux and Mac backers.

Look man, I'm sorry but it's not going to change. If you think you have hit a brick wall here and you won't be playing the game, I'd like you to remember what I said earlier:

I understand your anger and frustration. However, if you are not going to play the game, your business in the community is concluded if your only reason for sticking around is venting your frustration by being disrespectful to our staff. I honestly hope you will change your mind and play on another platform. You are also free to remain here to campaign for a refund so long as you do so with respect. I do not like banning people. I do not like silencing people. It is our responsibility to cultivate a healthy community, and although this dark smudge will persist, I don't think it serves the rest of the community who will remain here to endure the posts of people who are only here to bad mouth the team. If you find yourself typing something that can be judged as a snide remark, consider respectfully and quietly leaving, and do so with my personal respect and apology that this mess happened to you.

Post by Galamoth on Jan 10, 2019 8:10:09 GMT -6

71- I concede that this could be good news, but not very encouraging that all the bugs had to be discovered by players rather than interal QA

72- Funny that Vita backers could get refunds but not for this newest round of dropping; not good news that a plaform was dropped and a giant indetermiate delay.

73- Again, nothing for Linux/Mac

74- Typical update, nothing big like a release window or something, how about a gameplay vid with these new models?

75- Really really great news, they had to bring people in at the 11th hour because the dev team can't get this done, and the project will probably get delayed further

Such terrific updates. Left out the latest doozy.

70 - They began development of this game on PC, but sure, I'll give you that point.

71 - No developer is ever guaranteed to find all of the bugs/glitches on their own in the time periods they spend making their games. The fact that many were discovered by players, in my perspective, should be encouraging.

72 - Wii U backers also got refunds back then. This current platform-drop isn't good news, but they had an understandable reason for it. And if the delay was "indeterminate", we wouldn't even get the year (just "TBD" or "N/A").

73 - GOG is the DRM-free version. I'd say that's good news.

74 - Them being finished with enemy placement for the planned hardest difficulty in the game is a "typical" update to you?

75 - I don't see how getting extra help to fix bugs & speed up asset-creation is somehow a sign they "can't get this done" or a delay. If the project is to be delayed due to WayForward's involvement, they would've announced that already.

What is the point of saying "left out the latest doozy"? The purpose of my initial reply was to point out what was addressed in updates from the six months before that one.

Again, I'm not here to change your opinion on the project. Just noting that it seems you've skimmed right over what was addressed in the past.

Post by browren on Jan 10, 2019 8:30:34 GMT -6

XombieMike, it is hypocritical. What you're saying is, because 505 (and you, I suppose?) are afraid that a bunch of disillusioned Windows backers will try to get refunds despite not ever intending to play on Linux or Mac, and that could cause them to lose sales and/or you to lose *your* copy of the game, that I should lose my copy of the game instead. Isn't that exactly the same "I get mine and screw everyone else" attitude you were being critical of before?

Also keep in mind, 505 refused to deal with any of us directly. They threw us at your board, expecting that they wouldn't need to defend themselves because other people would do it for them, for free. We're not here because we wanted to be. Up until now, this place was a relatively calm and fun place to lurk, so 505 threw you under the bus too. Doesn't that bother you at all?

I'm well aware that I'm not getting anything for my money, that was obvious from Question 's response. I pretty much assumed it was a losing battle the second they pointed me at Twitter and a discussion board instead of 505's PR people.

Post by XombieMike on Jan 10, 2019 8:42:23 GMT -6

browren it's not hypocritical at all. You are failing to understand that if the popular theory is correct (which is the only one that makes sense) it would be highly irresponsible for them to open up refunds when they have no way to limit it to those who deserve it such as yourself. It's simply an obvious decision at that point, and everyone's job is to make sure this project is seen through to the highest level of completion possible.

Bro, with your avatar insult to the devs, and your continuing arguing, I fear you are going to force me to ask you to leave. Please don't make me do that. I want you to stay here, and when the day finally comes I want you playing on wine and being a member of this community. Just take a break for a bit. Sorry, man.

Post by Galamoth on Jan 10, 2019 8:43:17 GMT -6

browren Pretty sure you'd technically still get a copy, actually. I'm wondering how it's hypocritical when he still supports the idea of Mac/Linux backers getting a refund; he's just running out of patience for the select few who seem to be preparing for a flaming campaign.

I imagine they "threw you" here because it's easier to track Question and for notifications from him. I don't see how being here changes things, because the only 505 person you're directly dealing with is still Question (Jason Ryan), regardless of being here or the Kickstarter page.

Post by browren on Jan 10, 2019 9:01:52 GMT -6

Galamoth it changes things because if it were an email discussion, I would not be here crapping up XombieMike 's board with a fight that ultimately is between me and 505, not him, or you, or any of the other backers. All that's being achieved here is arguments between people who wanted the same thing anyway.

And yes, technically I'm still entitled to a Windows copy of the game, with it being entirely on me to get it to actually work. All it takes is one small bug and I've kickstartered a $60 coaster.

XombieMike, It was never my intent to cause trouble for you, your board, or any of the other fans of this game. I'll be happy to change my profile so it suits you. 505 sent me here and it looks like they're getting exactly what they wanted.

Post by XombieMike on Jan 10, 2019 9:08:11 GMT -6

I have patience, but this is more about addressing how much negative backlash prevents this community from fulfilling and maintaining the atmosphere we strive achieve.

This is a place for fandom, constructive criticism, gaining information gathered here by the community, sharing art, talking directly with the team, suggestions, and so much more. I can't allow those things to suffer due to unconstructive criticism and snide remarks that lead to no positive outcomes.

I am an advocate for ALL fans, even the ones I don't like or flat out disagree with. Browen doesn't even fall into that category. It's just that I must fulfill what I believe to be my responsibility, no matter if it's making sure everyone gets heard, or enforcement of rules and policies when necessary.

I have nothing but dissapointment that this issue couldn't be handled properly, but I believe it was handled in the only way it could be, with the exception of the team not explaining the underlying reasons we all seem to agree on and that they don't seem to deny. They MUST have a reason for that, and I trust them in their view of the bigger picture and long term vision.

I want all of our Linux and Mac backers to remain in the community and see how the game runs on wine upon release. If it doesn't run well, I want you to still be here to campaign for additional post release work, where you will have my support and voice as an advocate.

You believed in this project at one time, Browen. We share things in common. Let's put this to rest for a while and be respectful despite our disappointment and frustration. Its the higher road.

Edit: we posted at the same time. I just read your last message. The answers you seek were directed here because many people have asked the same thing, and everyone needs to see the responses from the staff in an official place like this that is easy to record and organize.

Post by browren on Jan 10, 2019 9:37:42 GMT -6

XombieMike, thanks. I understand you, I apologise again for the position you've been put in, and appreciate everything you're trying to do. There is one more thing I can do, It's a long shot, but might as well give it a go.

Question: I am a professional Linux developer (please refer to my LinkedIn account here for details). While my day job is at Canonical (the company that makes and distributes Ubuntu), I am making this offer personally. I know C#, C, several other languages, and am highly familiar with kernel internals and drivers, and would be happy to work on the Linux port of Bloodstained, on my own personal time, for free, and under NDA, with the limitations that I may discuss Linux technical issues doing the port on this board so the other Linux backers know how it's going, and that it is not expected that the Linux release will be simultaneous with Windows, since I am only one person.

I can offer up to 15 hours of work a week, and already have the UE4 source complied and running on Ubuntu. All I'd need is a copy of your most recent Linux build's source files and the minimal game resources so I know I've succeeded, which I may already have via the Steam demo. If you're having build problems or performance problems, I can fix those, shoot you a patch, and get you back on track. To reiterate, I don't want money, nor do I want credit anywhere, I just want the game to work. Consider it a very-after-the-fact backer bump.

I'm not a Mac developer and unfortunately can't be any help there, but maybe you could find someone similar to me in the Apple backers.

...

Anyhow, since I'm stuck with a Windows copy regardless, if it doesn't work on WINE and they don't want my help, I certainly have every reason to make it work on Wine. You can bet I'll be doing that.

Post by FutureSuture on Jan 10, 2019 12:34:46 GMT -6

XombieMike , thanks. I understand you, I apologise again for the position you've been put in, and appreciate everything you're trying to do. There is one more thing I can do, It's a long shot, but might as well give it a go.

Question : I am a professional Linux developer (please refer to my LinkedIn account here for details). While my day job is at Canonical (the company that makes and distributes Ubuntu), I am making this offer personally. I know C#, C, several other languages, and am highly familiar with kernel internals and drivers, and would be happy to work on the Linux port of Bloodstained, on my own personal time, for free, and under NDA, with the limitations that I may discuss Linux technical issues doing the port on this board so the other Linux backers know how it's going, and that it is not expected that the Linux release will be simultaneous with Windows, since I am only one person.

I can offer up to 15 hours of work a week, and already have the UE4 source complied and running on Ubuntu. All I'd need is a copy of your most recent Linux build's source files and the minimal game resources so I know I've succeeded, which I may already have via the Steam demo. If you're having build problems or performance problems, I can fix those, shoot you a patch, and get you back on track. To reiterate, I don't want money, nor do I want credit anywhere, I just want the game to work. Consider it a very-after-the-fact backer bump.

I'm not a Mac developer and unfortunately can't be any help there, but maybe you could find someone similar to me in the Apple backers.

...

Anyhow, since I'm stuck with a Windows copy regardless, if it doesn't work on WINE and they don't want my help, I certainly have every reason to make it work on Wine. You can bet I'll be doing that.

browren, you are badass. I did not back the game (a good stance to take, considering what this thread is about), but I am willing to donate to you to get the Linux port that Linux users deserve. I am willing to shoot 125$ your way should you get permission to port the game. That is 125$ to you, the Linux porter, not 125$ to the developers who took money for a job they refuse to do now. Again, browren, you are badass.

Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 10, 2019 14:50:25 GMT -6

While I doubt this would ever get off the ground for any number of reasons; if it does, I would support this myself, with whatever I can, monetarily or otherwise. I doubt it would reverse the perception of the project/game being altogether awful by those affected, but it's a solution and I love solutions.

Post by FutureSuture on Jan 11, 2019 4:16:20 GMT -6

If the Windows version of the game can be run on Linux/Mac, the answer is no.

Linux and Mac OS users were promised native clients instead of having to fiddle with external tools themselves in the hope that the game runs well enough to play, if at all. The developers of Bloodstained: Ritual Of The Night do not need their money if Linux and Mac OS users will be doing all the work themselves.

Post by XombieMike on Jan 11, 2019 7:10:05 GMT -6

Well, they need all the money they can get, but yeah, it was intended up front to work natively and when Mac and Linux backers pledged money it was with that understanding.

The only way I'd agree with a "no" vote is because I'm sure refunds are impossible without opening up refunds to all other PC backers as well. That would be very irresponsible of the team and lead to disaster.

To clarify that I indeed think they do deserve a refund I need to clarify why I would agree with "no";

Yes they deserve a refund morally. 100%No they can't legally get a refund. At this point that sucks, but it's works out because,No they can't get a refund without opening it to all PC backers which would be a disaster.

The average backer paid over 80 bucks, so think of how many people would be getting a refund and multiply. Then consider the KS fees, tax, etc. All that money would have to be removed from the existing budget, so they would pretty much be forced to stop where they are or greatly reduce development time.

I totally think that if it was possible to refund the money to only the Linux and Mac backers it would have been done. The evidence is that it was done for Vita since 505 has been involved. The difference this time is that when choosing a platform selection, PC backers were only given the options for Steam or GoG. I verified this with one of the Linux backers who said it was understandable because Steam can mean Linux and required no further question to Fangamer about why it wasn't broken out into the various platforms. It wasn't an issue until native support development became a problem, and by then it was too late to re-open platform selections. I haven't seen 505 say that none of this was untrue or deny this theory. It doesn't conflict with anything they said. Although I will always believe these people deserve their money back if they don't want to try it on WINE or some other tool, I do believe that 505 is forced to make this decision, as otherwise it would harm the quality of the final game.

Aztec: I don’t visit the Discord but I want to ask if we have any confirmation about the Ayami Kojima box art and the backer exclusive slip cover coming with my physical game day and date or is that coming also later? I realize the design is secret but when?May 24, 2019 17:34:35 GMT -6

Aztec: Also we’re supposed to get another update next Thursday, yes?May 24, 2019 17:35:04 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: The Discord has been a mad house since yesterday, with random folks giving incorrect answers to things, so I'll just tell you here: the slipcase yes, but the Kojima stuff no.May 24, 2019 17:48:12 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: It's been a while since I heard that specifically asked about and its answer so I'm not 100% sure on the slipcase, but definitely the Kojima art is in a later shipment with the other rewards.May 24, 2019 17:48:38 GMT -6

Galamoth: Though we are still getting another update next Thursday, right?May 24, 2019 19:32:12 GMT -6

Arsenical: *drinks * the game i have been waiting for such a long time is only a few weeks away from me. i am so excited. im sure other peoples here share that excitement so lets read the new threads. . . . . . . oh.May 24, 2019 21:14:53 GMT -6

Arsenical: meh! who cares! i will still enjoy the shiz out of this game and my name will be on the credits. not only that but now i will be able to enjoy full content even if i lose my backer edition so yeah either way i win. *drinks more *May 24, 2019 21:19:43 GMT -6

Arsenical: but am i the only one who thinks that the idea of the steelcases was terrible? why get 3rd party items involved in your project? people is greedy and will whine about it if they dont get it for free! or did i miss something here?May 24, 2019 21:22:37 GMT -6

roguedragon05: Does anyone know if Bloodstained will be at E3 at all this year?May 24, 2019 21:58:44 GMT -6

Aztec: Thanks @purifyweirdshard for the answers. I’m bummed about no Kojima art. That would’ve made for some excellent PR before the game came out. I wish they could show it off even if they physical prints were shipping later but oh wellMay 24, 2019 23:57:01 GMT -6