I am revisiting the nature of natal Jupiter-Saturn aspects. I wonder what you all may have to contribute in sorting out this (to me) difficult to articulate aspect.

One frequently recurring theme, that seems like the backbone of this aspect, is a relationship to traditional institutions and orthodoxies; but it appears in two seemingly opposed ways, one of embracing and embodying such institutions, and one of standing opposed to them in different ways.

The first is easy to spot, especially among famous people: Jupiter-Saturn, themed to politics and business finance, marks a wide circle of politicians and business financiers. They literally embody "the system" - the system is made up of them and those like them.

Against this are those who are politically conscious, including writers and other artists whose politically-themed works have often been critics and gadflies of their era's rulers or government systems. I no longer think of them as per se the foes of the status quo, so much as the champions of a better system. (Was Galileo a radical? If so, it was his Aquarius-Aries, not his Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. His actions were radical, but he only wanted the truth.)

One can fall back to saying such things as "politics and finance are major themes in their lives," and then figure out how that theme actualizes by other means; but I now think that doing so misses fundamental themes and principles. I'm looking for the essence from which all of the aspect's diverse traits arise. (I have a lot more basic stuff than I'm reviewing in this present post, but I'm trying to focus on these specific themes.)

The likely years of birth of Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammed were all years of Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions. While today they are all embodiments of tradition and orthodoxy, they were radical thought-leaders of their times. The same is true of Freud, who today seems a tired old institution: But that's part of what I'm seeing, he actually became the foundation of a new orthodoxy. Among the famous, I find many in science and other fields whose revolutionary thought became the foundation of new orthodoxy. Major music figures tend to be iconic, not just popular, nearly social cornerstones (John Lennon, Lady Gaga, Placido Domingo, Joan Baez, in diverse ways).

This shows best in the famous examples. It is more difficult to see in day-to-day people. I am starting to see that they tend to be cornerstones of their families and communities. I used to agree with Carter and Lewi that they lack imagination, but I now think they merely favor what is proven (which can look like the same thing): One can hardly say that this collection of revolutionary scientists and musicians, and the likes of Gene Roddenberry, Walt Disney, and Kenneth Anger lack imagination!

A spin-off: Increasingly, I see an ancestor worship or family tradition motif with this aspect, including many who continue a family legacy or have fame not readily separate from that of a parent or child; or artists who carry a dynastic or cultural heritage as part of their mark. As a simple example, it is easy to find major actors with the aspect who are part of a family legacy, with either a parent or a child in the lineage (e.g., Candice Bergen, Geena Davis, Martin Sheen... recently actor Meghan Markle took on family allegiance to one of the grandest "old institutions" on the planet... Woody Allen "brings all his formative family with him in everything he does"... Mel Gibson has been an active continuator and institutional support of his father's church... and so on.)

Ebertin mentions none of this. Traits he does mention are often more day-to-day expressions, especially the positive traits, and I probably have to rely more on them (after further vetting).

I could write a dozen pages on Jupiter-Saturn aspects, in fact, taking several other themes and spreading them out this way, but what I really need to do is fit everything important in three to five lines!

I can't call them conservative any longer - there are many who are politically and socially conservative and preservative of old orthodoxies, and also many who are the foes of these and even the forerunners of new orthodoxies. Those with average and below-average income are hardly "pillars of our society," though they are often cornerstones of their families and smaller communities. The exact way the typical person with this aspect relates to finance depends on so many other factors it is hard to pin down, though I know many diverse ways they do it.

That's one problem with this aspect: Jupiter and Saturn have some things in common, but in many ways they are so opposed that the exact outcome is from a "balancing act" of swinging between opposites. I think (though I could be wrong... still working on it) that for most of them Jupiter aspecting Saturn promises reward from hard work, and Saturn aspecting Jupiter slows and grounds one's ambition - the final result (except in the dysfunctional) usually being a balanced, economical approach to life.

So, screening out all the hand-wringing in this, what concrete things did I say? Let's strip away the padding and meandering...

They seem deeply connected to traditional institutions and orthodoxies, but in two seemingly opposed ways: one of embracing and embodying such institutions, and one of standing opposed to them in different ways.

Embracing & embodying orthodoxies: Easy to spot, especially among the famous: Themes of politics and business finance, with a wide circle of politicians and business financiers. Literally, they are "the system."

Opposed to orthodoxies: Includes writers and other artists whose politically-themed works have often been critics and gadflies of their era's rulers, standards, and orthodoxies.

Therefore, politics and finance are major themes in their lives either way. but I'm looking for something more concrete and essential that this.

Many of the famous are themselves radical thought leaders whose often revolutionary thought becomes (in their lives and after) the embodiment of new traditions and orthodoxies. Revolutionary scientists and artists are found here, often giants of imagination.

It is more difficult to see the outcome in day-to-day people. I think they tend to be cornerstones of their families and communities. In no sense do they lack imagination, but may favor what is proven or available (which can look like the same thing).

I see an ancestor worship or family tradition motif. Many continue a family legacy or have fame connected to that of a parent or child; or artists who carry a dynastic or cultural heritage as part of their mark.

They are not inherently conservative: Many are politically and socially conservative and preservative of old orthodoxies, and many others are foes of these and even forerunners of new orthodoxies.

Is it that they neither embrace nor oppose orthodoxies, but look for the usefulness or the truth in them, and how they react is predicated in what they find.

I think... it's something like that... just trying to pin down exactly what.

I think they are practical and sensible, yes. I think they are fabulous with making lemonade when given lemons (a variation of "what win is there to be found in this loss").

I don't think they are indifferent to the orthodoxies (or legacies, or heritages, or whatever word applies). The orthodoxies seem to draw their strong allegiance OR their enmity, and something in them - some relationship to value? (I'm punting here) - determines which way it goes. I suppose a lot of it is practical: If one is "part of the system," one supports it; otherwise, one calls out against it? (But it's not that simple.) Many have acute social conscience, but I'm not clear whether that is from this aspect, or is from something else. (Most people in long-term public service do tend to start with good motives besides their own power urges, and do want to do what they think is right.)

I suppose I'm rambling, and this may not seem like I'm exactly responsive to what you wrote. Yes, there is surely the pragmatism you describe.

I don't think those who end up being the baseline of new orthodoxies set out to do that. Galileo didn't - he was just pursuing science, and everything else spilled from there. Some like Roddenberry and Disney had real vision. Heisenberg and Curie each rewrote the rules of physics, as Galileo of astronomy. I don't think Freud envisioned himself as a new institution, and Woody Allen is so self-absorbed I doubt he was entirely focused on changing society (though he did). John Lennon wanted to have a really good band and he broke all the rules except the really fundamental ones, which he held onto (the most culturally significant music-altering impact of modern times was founded on 4-4 architecture). OTOH I'm sure Lady Gaga set out to shake things up and get people to listen Fidel Castro was a radical who became an entrenched institution.

Here's what I've written as the new Jupiter-Saturn interpretation... but please, keep the discussion going.

Practical, sensible (especially with finances). Responsible, conscientious, dutiful. Effective survivors. Patient hard work (earning one's place, success through industry) brings the most reliable rewards. Balances gain & loss: what can be won from losing, what it costs to win (cf. politics, finance; making lemonade from lemons). Attuned to legacy, heritage, tradition. Cornerstones of their families or circles. Orthodoxies draw their strong allegiance or opposition (the most creative become baselines of new orthodoxies).

I see them as methodical, in the sense of having systematic & step-by-step approach to whatever they are dealing with.
When Sun, Mars, Pluto are pronounced in the chart, they tend to be well-balanced. When this not the case, and especially if Saturn pronounced in the chart, there's tendency to be in a way lost regarding own work/path, staying in circumstances that are limiting, hard, and it seems as if they are specifically seeking out the hardship (unconsciously).

Jupiter opposite Saturn is one of the closest aspects (0°36') I have in my mundoscope at birth place, and it is angular.
I attribute this aspect to my deep interest in politics and my extreme ease/natural talent in understanding money and economics. I see my involvement and interest in politics as being one of the "champions of a better system". It is for reform of the system. I do think this is strongly influenced by the Uranus square n. MC (and possibly n. Pluto square ASC), that gives radical reform thinking and ideas on how to change the system... a kind of "think outside the box" ability.

Again, (and I've said this many times before in this forum), don't look at an aspect in isolation. In those cases you have identified as being people who have brought about radical shifts in thinking/ideologies or managed to make political changes to their societies, look into their Uranus aspects as well. The combination of Jupiter-Saturn and their Uranus aspects may be the key to understand how they are different.

I see them as methodical, in the sense of having systematic & step-by-step approach to whatever they are dealing with. When Sun, Mars, Pluto are pronounced in the chart, they tend to be well-balanced. When this not the case, and especially if Saturn pronounced in the chart, there's tendency to be in a way lost regarding own work/path, staying in circumstances that are limiting, hard, and it seems as if they are specifically seeking out the hardship (unconsciously).

I'll take a look at this, but... Sun, Mars, Pluto... are you really just saying that if they're an Aries, they can handle this stuff just fine?

"Methodical" isn't a trait that jumped out at me, but I'll take it back and look at my group of people I know best. I imagine it applies to those who are actively engaged in business & politics etc., but I don't (prior to revisiting the list soon) see how it applies to most day-to-day examples. I did pick the words responsible & conscientious and wonder if we are seeing different sides of the elephant? It didn't strike me that method was a particular component, but that more or less "whatever it takes to make it work" was an inherent commitment. - Maybe I have to watch them in smaller, everyday things. (There I go wandering around talking in circles again. I'll just have to go look.)

I attribute this aspect to my deep interest in politics and my extreme ease/natural talent in understanding money and economics.

Yes, these had been exactly the two themes about the aspect that I've most emphasized in my thinking and writing for the last 40 years or so. It strikingly fits my famous examples and a tiny percentage of my non-famous examples. What got me going was realizing that neither of those as written applied to the day-to-day lives of the vast majority of non-famous people with it.

This naturally suggested that there was something more fundamental, of which "politics & business-economics" were high-visibility outcroppings. I thought it a breakthrough when, from mundane astrology work a year ago, I realized just how much politics and business-economics relies on managing the continually interrelating opposite of gain and loss - "what can I get for myself by losing? What does winning cost me?" (Etc.) That was one of the two or three main threads that set me off on a different approach to the natal aspect.

One of the things I didn't mention (because I think it's just one isolated expression) is that almost half my list, as either a long-term or short-term-grab-some-cash job, have worked at banks. It wasn't really what their life was about, but it's something natural enough to them that it brought home a paycheck while they worked on what mattered more to them.

I see them as methodical, in the sense of having systematic & step-by-step approach to whatever they are dealing with. When Sun, Mars, Pluto are pronounced in the chart, they tend to be well-balanced. When this not the case, and especially if Saturn pronounced in the chart, there's tendency to be in a way lost regarding own work/path, staying in circumstances that are limiting, hard, and it seems as if they are specifically seeking out the hardship (unconsciously).

I'll take a look at this, but... Sun, Mars, Pluto... are you really just saying that if they're an Aries, they can handle this stuff just fine?

Well, Aries Luminaries on my list (of personally known Jup-Sat people) definitely seem to handle it better than the others!

Here's the list of famous people with Jup-Sat that I have in my database. I haven't gone into analyzing them, just putting the names here in the thread, for our consideration.

What I'm really interested in, though, is the not-famous. For this aspect, I would be drawn to completely different conclusions looking at the famous and the not-famous lists (and that's unusual with most aspects). That leads me to conclude that the particular path of the highly successful is one particular (and probably successful) expression of some other principles - that what we most see in them isn't the actual trait set, just the symptoms of it.

I want to get clear (and the last few days have gotten me well along that road) on what the aspect means for Marion's mom, and the hard-working struggling singer who played Patsy Cline opposite Marion's Louise, and the seven diverse people in yours and my common social circles, and the Australian sex surrogate and part-time bank employee who travelled the world two months out of every year, and … folks like that.

I'm noticing not in all of them, but in definite majority (speaking of personally known only) something that I can describe as lack of leaping courage (the Aries Luminaries are exception to this); there's need to feel secure, by holding on to the logic and common sense, and tendency to generally avoid the unknown, when it comes to life decisions; there's tendency to firmly hold on to perpetuating what-has-been-so-far (...this comes back to the "orthodox" trait), the already-established.

P.S.I just realized: the fact that I'm a Ju-Ur person is obviously affecting the way I see the Ju-Sa people! It's easy for me to see their Saturn with Jupiter, for it's such a sharp difference between that and Uranus with Jupiter.

P.S.I just realized: the fact that I'm a Ju-Ur person is obviously affecting the way I see the Ju-Sa people! It's easy for me to see their Saturn with Jupiter, for it's such a sharp difference between that and Uranus with Jupiter.

Me too! This "being careful and making sure things are secure" is baffling! <vbg>

If you go on and just count all the people you have mentioned in this list of famous people, you will find that the majority of them are all very far from "being careful" or "making sure things are safe" ...most of the people you've mentioned have had extreme courage to go against what is safe and orthodox, they have not been particularly careful since many of them had to take great risks to reveal or talk about their ideas or be who they are/were. I haven't looked if they are all Aries luminaries or if they have Uranus to help with this unusual courage to go against the norm. Saturn is not only about limits, it is also about science and politics and having Jupiter in strong aspect to it may be what is needed for science to succeed and expand. Having Jupiter in aspect to it may also be what is needed to "lift above and beyond" the orthodox thinking. Both Saturn and Jupiter are also about property, wealth and money. Warren Buffett has this aspect in opposition (wide in ecliptic, don't know how close in mundo). But he also has Uranus aspecting Jup. He is one of those with a natural talent for understanding money. He is known for going against what the majority of people do, he says that is why he is so rich. “Be Fearful When Others Are Greedy and Greedy When Others Are Fearful”

...lack of leaping courage... need to feel secure, by holding on to the logic and common sense...

Arena, in looking at the personal list, I agree with you that there is no shortage of courage. I would almost mark "courage" as a Jupiter-Saturn trait based on observing people I personally know with it, though I suspect this is not a direct trait but, rather, arising out of the other basic traits.

Almost to a one, they stand tall and "do their job" (in life, not just in the workplace),even in the face of great hardship or adversity. In fact, most of them seem almost oblivious to the idea of adversity as such (a few have been sent stumbling by it, but not many). I suspect this is part of what has been historically labelled persevering about them.

tendency to generally avoid the unknown when it comes to life decisions... tendency to firmly hold onto perpetuating what-has-been-so-far... the already-established.

I think "generally avoid the unknown" doesn't fit - some of them have moved far outside their comfort zones (though they do seem, in most cases, to go with things that are certain and established ("it just seems the responsible thing to do") when given a reasonable choice.

I'm thinking of a divorced mother of two daughters whose priority was, of course, their security and well-being, but whose methods were to be creative, break expectation, go outside the safety zone though she has an otherwise bold chart - Scorpio-Aquarius). Danica and I have a young friend in common who has been living flexibly, moving across borders and continents, switching from a fine dining waiter to a pot harvester to a whatever, and another common friend who has been free-wheeling her way in and out of somewhat dangerous and fairly opulent Mideast locations plying her flexible trade. A hardworking up-and-coming singer is perhaps best known for her persistence and commitment, but has been applying that through parallel approaches and the flexibility that performers need who want to make it big. All of them are willing to work hard, and almost none of them are stuck in a rut.

Seem to be working toward "conventional" ends - making a living, raising children, using non-traditional methods which require some work and persistance to make pay off.

Agreed. And a lot of the innovativeness and unconventionality is from other obvious things in the chart. Most or all of the clearly innovative Jupiter-Saturn people on my list have an Aquarius or Scorpio luminary. Buffet's Jupiter-Saturn is moderately wide, but his Jupiter-Uranus is acute. (He's a better example of a fundamentally Jupiter-Uranus person who is into Jupiter-Saturn things.)