2011 Worlds proves Ando can beat Kim if both are clean or similar errors.
At the 2011 Worlds Ando made 1 mistake and landed 5 triples with no triple-triple and came from behind to pass Kim who made 1 mistake and landed 5 triples and a triple-triple. That just shows if both skated cleanly with the same jumps Ando would win easily, and considering Ando can do 7 triples (and sometimes a quad) vs only 6 for Kim it would be an even easier win if both skated cleanly with all they can do.

2011 Worlds is the last competition two skaters fought, so I think this comparison is fair enough.
Single Jumps that both of miki and kim did successfully are 3lutz, 3sal. They got same GOE on both jumps.
Ando got same GOE 0.9 with kim in 3lutz which is the strongest jump of kim. Ando got same GOE 0.8 on 3Sal with kim. It proves Ando in top form had similar quality jump with kim.

This events proved these things. If kim makes similar errors with her rivals, she is becoming a ordinary top skater. Of course this is same on PCS. 2011 Worlds Where kim had similar skates with Ando, Judges have judged that kim is just slightly better than Ando artistically. In any element in protocal, I could not find kim surpassed Ando surely.
Don't think that at that time, Judges didn't intend to make large difference in PCS. At the same event, Patrick Chan in Mens won 2rd skater kozuka who is known for so strong skating skill, and skated close to clean in PCS by 12.

So they prove when Ando is in top form, if both skated cleanly with the same jumps Ando would win easily,
In TES, also in pcs.

A clean Kim would kill a clean Ando. Ando's career PB is merely 137 points. Kim has scored higher than that atleast 4 times, and her two top scores are more than 10 points higher. Then the SP Kim's personal B is about 10 points higher than Ando which is far worse considering it is only a SP. No contest.

Kim made 4 mistakes at those Worlds, not just 1. She fell on the 3Lutz in the SP, thus abandoning her original plan of 3Lutz+3toe, so no 3Lutz and no 3toe landed (2 mistakes or miscues from what she normally does for a planned clean routine). This forced her to have to change her thinking and go off plan, making her change her solo 3flip to a 3flip+2toe. Had she completed her planned clean routine, she would have left Ando in the dust by about a 12 point lead after the SP. Speaking of the fall on her 3Lutz, one really has to question the judge who awarded her a +1 in execution for this element. Very suspect!

Miscues followed Kim in the LP as well. She singled a toe on the back end of a 3Salchow and also singled a planned 3flip, resulting in 2 more mistakes.

A 1 mistake Kim would never lose to Ando, regardless of what country the event was taking place in. Kim very narrowly lost to Ando, even with the 4 mistakes (195.79 vs. 194.50).

A clean Kostner or a clean Asada could make it interesting vs a clean Kim sometimes. Not all the time, neither could have touched Kim at the 2010 Olympics or 2009 Worlds for instance, but at the 2013 Worlds and other events Kim was perfect both could have made it close still skating their best. Ando no chance though. A clean Kim would never come close to losing to a clean Ando even if she did her quad salchow. They just arent the same class of skater.

Ando doesnt do a single thing better than Kim. Her biggest strength is her jumps but since 2008 Kim does the harder jumps, and also gets the higher GOE, so Ando even loses there if both skate well. Kim has stronger spins, footwork, and PCS by far.

That isnt to say Ando didnt deserve her World title in 2011. Granted it was close, and one could argue Kim even with her problems should have won. However Ando did skate beautifully and is a 2 time World Champion so is a high quality skater and a champion. Still she will never beat Kim with Kim skating truly well.

Kim was 3/4 with 2 of 3 combos in the first half. She also had the 2a as an only element. Ando skated a more backloaded program and did benefit from the fact cop wants jumps in the second half. She was of course better trained than Kim and can backload more than Kim by a lot.

Kim made 4 mistakes at those Worlds, not just 1. She fell on the 3Lutz in the SP, thus abandoning her original plan of 3Lutz+3toe, so no 3Lutz and no 3toe landed (2 mistakes or miscues from what she normally does for a planned clean routine). This forced her to have to change her thinking and go off plan, making her change her solo 3flip to a 3flip+2toe. Had she completed her planned clean routine, she would have left Ando in the dust by about a 12 point lead after the SP. Speaking of the fall on her 3Lutz, one really has to question the judge who awarded her a +1 in execution for this element. Very suspect!
Miscues followed Kim in the LP as well. She singled a toe on the back end of a 3Salchow and also singled a planned 3flip, resulting in 2 more mistakes.

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She did not fall on 3Lutz in SP. she had like to have fallen, but barely she did not fall. But still Wow, One judge gave her +1 GOE on that poor 3Lutz? so ridiculous. How can it happening??
And, Andofanatic talked about FS. when I saw she mentioned "two skaters did 5 triples". and you are right, In FS, kim did 2 mistakes not one. maybe Andofanatic knew something wrong.

But there is one sentence that I can never agree. No way kim could win Ando in SP by 12 points. Do you mean she could score 77 if she goes clean?? It is almost same with her record at Olympic where she did 3lutz - 3toe. In 2011 Worlds, she planed 3F-2T / 3Lz / 2A. First of all, base value was different. Have you tried check the protocol?
If kim did 3lutz, she might get + GOE 0.9~1.0. In FS, she got 0.9 on 3lutz.
And would not be given -1.5 GOE. So If she went clean, she could got only more 2.5 points. Then 68~69.

What I meant in "Patrick Chan in Mens won 2rd skater kozuka who is known for so strong skating skill, and skated close to clean in PCS by 12." is he won 2rd skater 12 points in only PCS citeria. It was about only score difference in PCS, Not about SP score or overall score

But there is one sentence that I can never agree. No way kim could win Ando in SP by 12 points. Do you mean she could score 77 if she goes clean?? It is almost same with her record at Olympic where she did 3lutz - 3toe. In 2011 Worlds, she planed 3F-2T / 3Lz / 2A. First of all, base value was different. Have you tried check the protocol?

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Excuse me, it's you the one who don't get anything here. If Yuna goes clean, it's mean she did 3Lz-3T/3F/2A, same as always. She change it into 3F-2T just becasue it's planed B when she failed in her first trademark triple combination. If Yuna goes clean, she absolutely could score around her record, nothing wrong with that

*Sigh*

About the topic, I don't have any problem with Miki won 2011 Worlds, Yuna was not the best at that night, it's okay!!! But if you based on that result to said Miki is the same class with Yuna or could easily win over her anytime, sorry, I had to laugh

Lol... the stupendous subversive tactics someone continues to try undermine rivals skaters with thread like these cries desperation and insecurity on these boards. Same with endless polls created by 'new' users of <50 posts or less history.

All I am going to say is it is with great m&m voodoo magic of cosmic proportions that miki managed to nick this one just in time. Several things had to have aligned up for her. Thank goodness that it did actually, otherwise we might not see Yuna 2013 and 2014.

I wonder who regret what happened more now; certainly not this fan. The official commemoration championship booklet which she had been snubbed and practically left out of turned out to be the best silverlining's play book in this sport.

About the topic, I don't have any problem with Miki won 2011 Worlds, Yuna was not the best at that night, it's okay!!! But if you based on that result to said Miki is the same class with Yuna or could easily win over her anytime, sorry, I had to laugh

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It is fair and good comparison enough. You admitted that she was true champion. So why I cannot use judgement in this competition as example?
2011 Worlds is the last competiton that two competed.
Also I said objectively. I have complained based on protocol.
Miki is the same class with kim. she has no Oly gold. But as same with her, Miki is two time world champion.
she has the 3rd good career in this generation. what is laughable and why I can not think that?
And What I claimed is if miki is in top form, She can win yuna kim anytime. Figure skating Fans love hypothesis. I am not the only one

Ando won because Asada had a rough season. The JPN Fed put all their eggs in the Ando basket. In addition, Ando must have had some reputation adjustment points since she competed all through the season and was winning left and right. In contrast, Kim only competed at Worlds and as a result suffered the same way Kwan did from 2004 onwards.

At 2010 Worlds when Kim was undoubtedly off and actually fell, she was still easily 6.5 points better than a clean Ando in PCS in the free. Suddenly one season later, when Kim only popped 2 jumps which did not significantly disrupt the performance and Ando skated equally indifferently to the music, Kim was only 1.5 points better than Ando? I in no way am convinced that the gap in PCS narrowed between Ando and Kim from 2010 worlds to 2011 Worlds. There's no skating-related explanation anyway.

And What I claimed is if miki is in top form, She can win yuna kim anytime. Figure skating Fans love hypothesis. I am not the only one

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Okay, sorry, if you like to compare them, not my bussiness

All I mean: If Yuna at her best, no one can touch her (except Mao at her best do 8 triples clean) I admitted that Miki won 11 Worlds just because that night Yuna was NOT at her best, she also not competed the whole season, so it was okay the judge prefer Miki.

But if two of them skate THE SAME, both clean or both make the same mistake, Miki will never touch Yuna

What top form Miki is to win over Yuna ANYTIME?

If I remember right, she also skate quite clean at Olympic 2010, you must know what their scored

All I mean: If Yuna at her best, no one can touch her (except Mao at her best do 8 triples clean) I admitted that Miki won 11 Worlds just because that night Yuna was NOT at her best, she also not competed the whole season, so it was okay the judge prefer Miki.

But if two of them skate THE SAME, both clean or both make the same mistake, Miki will never touch Yuna

What top form Miki is to win over Yuna ANYTIME?

If I remember right, she also skate quite clean at Olympic 2010, you must know what their scored

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I said "if two of them skate both clean or both make the same mistake WITH same jumps ~"

They got same GOEs on same jumps both two did. Their pcs difference was just 1 in sp, 2 in lp. Also, Goe on spin and steps have no large difference between two. 0.3~4?

as Marco said, her PCS in 10-11 season was much higher than olympic season. Because she was a 1 top akater in that season. It proved this. If miki is top form, she will be so consistent and pcs will go higher and higher. Like kostner she would get only 1~3 lower PCS than kim total as she was at 2011 Worlds.
Then, if you considering all of above things. you will get there is no big difference between two

realistically, if they are doing same jumps and make similar mistakes, miki in top form would tie with yuna kim.If 'she would win yuna kim anytime' is not likely.
and I will change my former opinions a bit.if kim does clean programs, it would be so hard to beat for ando.
But of course, Judge's attitude about kim is worse when kim is not at the best and be tied with rivals. So in this position, Ando has more advantage.

Ando won because Asada had a rough season. The JPN Fed put all their eggs in the Ando basket. In addition, Ando must have had some reputation adjustment points since she competed all through the season and was winning left and right. In contrast, Kim only competed at Worlds and as a result suffered the same way Kwan did from 2004 onwards.

At 2010 Worlds when Kim was undoubtedly off and actually fell, she was still easily 6.5 points better than a clean Ando in PCS in the free. Suddenly one season later, when Kim only popped 2 jumps which did not significantly disrupt the performance and Ando skated equally indifferently to the music, Kim was only 1.5 points better than Ando? I in no way am convinced that the gap in PCS narrowed between Ando and Kim from 2010 worlds to 2011 Worlds. There's no skating-related explanation anyway.

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You have said many things uncorrectly. kim's FS in 2010 worlds was less flaws than kim's in 2011 Worlds - kim didn't fall in the free and made 2 mistakes. not great, kind of good fs. where kim was undoubtedly off and actually fell is sp.
It is one of the reasons the gap in PCS narrowed that much between Ando and Kim from 2010 worlds to 2011 Worlds.. And as you mentioned, kim had not competed whole season, Ando was the best skater of the season.
and as i mentioned in ando vs kostner thread, kim's FS music was not known internationally at all, so unfamiliar... transitions were also.. It would also affect on pcs

and huh ? I don't know what you mean in Ando skated equally indifferently to the music.
About the last sentence, IMO I believe she developed artistry in that season. Especially the way classical... which do you prefer miki's FS in 2011 or Cleopatra FS in 2010? I guess many fs fans will choose first one

as Marco said, her PCS in 10-11 season was much higher than olympic season. Because she was a 1 top akater in that season. It proved this. If miki is top form, she will be so consistent and pcs will go higher and higher.

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And you left out the part where I said I believe it's due to the JPN Fed shifting their politiking focus on Ando due to Asada underperforming, NOT because I feel she suddenly deserved better PCS. I in no way agree to that unreasonable jump in PCS over the 2 seasons and even within the 2011 season. She did win everything except GPF that season but I don't agree that this should be why her PCS improved.

You have said many things uncorrectly. kim's FS in 2010 worlds was less flaws than kim's in 2011 Worlds - kim didn't fall in the free and made 2 mistakes. not great, kind of good fs. where kim was undoubtedly off and actually fell is sp.

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She botched her layback and spirals in the short but did not fall. She fell on 3sal in the free. If you want to make outlandish claims on why Ando deserved sky high PCS, the least you could do is get your facts straight, not especially since you are trying to discredit me.

And as you mentioned, kim had not competed whole season, Ando was the best skater of the season.

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Again, as I said, this in itself is not a skating-related (i.e. legitimate) reason to boost up someone's PCS. However, I have no doubt this is one reason why her PCS jumped. What I and many are saying is that it shouldn't have jumped that way, simply because her skating was the same across the 2 seasons regardless of her skating results.

and as i mentioned in ando vs kostner thread, kim's FS music was not known internationally at all, so unfamiliar... transitions were also.. It would also affect on pcs

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Did you think those 9 judges at 1996 Worlds were more familiar with Salome or Rach 2? Did you think those 9 judges at 2000 Worlds were more familiar with Red Violin or Carmen / Swan Lake? Did you think those 9 judges at 2001 Worlds were more familiar with Song of the Black Swan or Don Quixote?

Popularity of the music should have nothing to do with judges' scores. Again, I have no doubt this is one reason why her PCS jumped. What I and many are saying is that it shouldn't have jumped that way, simply because her skating was the same across the 2 seasons regardless of music.

and huh ? I don't know what you mean in Ando skated equally indifferently to the music.

About the last sentence, IMO I believe she developed artistry in that season. Especially the way classical... which do you prefer miki's FS in 2011 or Cleopatra FS in 2010? I guess many fs fans will choose first one

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It means she never cared about the music what she skated. She didn't use the nuances, wasn't trying to create a mood. She was totally just going through the motions. This was actually less obvious during her younger years.

I prefer neither of those programs. Again, they are just the same non-program with different music. Grieg was of course prettier music but it makes no difference because she wasn't skating with it. She was just doing her elements while the music was playing in the background.

* Ando increased her her GOEs dramatically by 14.36 points over a season, from the Cup of China to 4CCs (known for score inflation) where Miki had the 2nd highest ladies FS ever in ISU history without a 3:3, 3A.

* Ando's PCS went up 12.12 in one season between Cup of China and WC where she did not go clean. Her technical content for WC was lower than 4CCs, and despite making mistakes there, her PCS actually went up even more by 3.22 points enough to affect the rankings.

1. Do you think Judges' impressions can be dramatically swayed and manipulated through out a season? Should it?

2. Do you really think artistry can be suddenly developed in 1 season?

3. If Miki skate for Korea, Yuna skate for Japan, would that affect the score?

4. Do you think momentum building can affect scoring?

5. How important is having a strong federation in this sport? Why?

6. Why do you think it is more advantageous to have more home events?

7 Regardless of how they are scored at the competition. Do you honestly think Yuna's 3Lz = Miki's 3Lz in quality in presentation? Why have they been scored differently in the past?

8. Who has the more complex, intricate and difficult program out of the two?

9. What if the competition is not in Russia where Morozov reign supreme, where they consider Miki practically their own. What if it had been in US, China, Canada, France, Italy etc, would that affect the scoring?

10. What if the Tsunami in Japan did not happen?

11. What if the host of the championship is not Japan that year?

12. What if post Olympics rule changes did not occur e.g to repress GOEs and 70% rule for lessen penalty for UR, minimise 2x2A in FS etc? ie/No 2A3T for Kim.

13. What if there are penalties for unbalanced program? What if there are bonuses for balanced program which ISU is suppose to be encouraging?

14. If the hosts have proven to shown such poor sportsmanship for snubbing Kim out of the official championship booklet, do you think they would not have done so in other ways behind the scene probably designed to affect the skater?

15. Can cold reception of rival skater from the home crowds not affect the Judges impressions? Especially there's no precedent to have seen the program? Or would it make them more conservative in judging?

16. What if the season and timing went on normal so where skater's peak condition were on time for the competition?

17. If Mao has performed better that season, do you think it can affect Miki's scoring through out the season?

18. In terms of quality, intellectual and emotional realization, who has the better and memorable programs that year? Why is it not reflected in the score more?

19. Yuna has never won by PCS in her entire career. Why? Is it fair to her when others have repeatedly done so including Miki here?

20. Are all championship wins worth the same, what makes them important and valuable? How has the press /blog/ fan reception of this particular WC win been like? Why?

I wasn't planning to say anything, but since you brought up the topic and created a thread, I might as well.

* Ando increased her her GOEs dramatically by 14.36 points over a season, from the Cup of China to 4CCs (known for score inflation) where Miki had the 2nd highest ladies FS ever in ISU history without a 3:3, 3A.

* Ando's PCS went up 12.12 in one season between Cup of China and WC where she did not go clean. Her technical content for WC was lower than 4CCs, and despite making mistakes there, her PCS actually went up even more by 3.22 points enough to affect the rankings.

1. Do you think Judges' impressions can be dramatically swayed and manipulated through out a season? Should it?
2. Do you really think artistry can be suddenly developed in 1 season?

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yes.

4. Do you think momentum building can affect scoring?

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yes same for all skaters

5. How important is having a strong federation in this sport? Why?

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I can not deny it. But, It has nothing to do with Ando's winning at 2011 Worlds. and even if it affected to result that night, it is just a one of the reasons why kim defeated

7 Regardless of how they are scored at the competition. Do you honestly think Yuna's 3Lz = Miki's 3Lz in quality in presentation? Why have they been scored differently in the past?

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yes. similar or same. And as i said, miki had much more reputation in that season than past, kim had not competed in whole season. So, It would affect on GOE in judgement.

18. In terms of quality, intellectual and emotional realization, who has the better and memorable programs that year? Why is it not reflected in the score more?

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Everyone have different taste, I prefered Ando's. So, I don't have problem in PCS.

19. Yuna has never won by PCS in her entire career. Why? Is it fair to her when others have repeatedly done so including Miki here?

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I don't know. But if you have a purpose that claim yuna kim would win if her pcs was correct(In Your opinion), well? As I said in this thread, I think miki was a true champion.

20. Are all championship wins worth the same, what makes them important and valuable? How has the press /blog/ fan reception of this particular WC win been like? Why?
I wasn't planning to say anything, but since you brought up the topic and created a thread, I might as well.

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I didn't say her winning has same worth with yuna kim's. just said they have same number of world title. and I know that some journalist like dave don't like ando .. But the fact that ando was a true champion does not change
and I answered to only questions related with subject..

This thread is incredibly stupid. The very fact the OP is having to argue Ando being worthy of the victory at an event she skated close to her best and Kim was below average for her standards already says it all. Lets put it simply, would Ando have a prayer in hell to beat the Kim of the 2010 Olympics or 2013 Worlds or even 2009 Worlds even if she skated perfectly with 3-3s (which she hasnt been capable of since 2007), and a quad salchow? Answer is obviously no. Next.

os168, so you will claim that kim was robbed?
I was looking for comentaries in english. I found two in Youtube.

It is universal commentary of yuna kim's FS. http://youtu.be/OkHXFu6NBBs
After score/placement is announced, Commentators seem a bit surprised, maybe because they thought two skaters will be too tied and didn't know who will win, so were a bit surprised.
BUT They still didn't angry and claim kim was robbed or blame Ando.

It is Euro commentary of yuna kim's FS. http://youtu.be/8KjrR5WyBs0
before, score/placement is announced, They said "will she regaining world title?" It means they didn't say world title is surely hers.
they seem a bit embarrassed after score is announced. But still not said she was robbed or blame ando as well as universal

os168, so you will claim that kim was robbed?
I was looking for comentaries in english. I found two in Youtube.

It is universal commentary of yuna kim's FS. http://youtu.be/OkHXFu6NBBs
After score is announced, Commentator's voice looks a bit surprised, maybe because they thought two skaters will be too tied and didn't know who will win, so were a bit surprised.
BUT They still didn't angry and claim kim was robbed or blame Ando.

It is Euro commentary of yuna kim's FS. http://youtu.be/8KjrR5WyBs0
before, score is announced, They said "will she regaining world title?" It means they didn't say world title is surely hers. they seem a bit embarrassed after score is announced.
But still not said she was robbed or blame ando as well as universal

You are not a expert so what is your problem

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LOL.. I never claim I am an expert but you on the other hand claims 'Andofinantic's post is the objective of all which is totally bogus (who is probably the same user as Kwanlysacek - another major troll who keep create Kim vs XXX polls in attempt to tarnish her reputation). If you don't like the answer, then don't go create threads like this and not expect a counter balance view.

I have at least been to that particular WC competition and experienced the ladies event live myself that week and saw and experienced a little behind the scenes. I know what i saw, and experienced. The vibe and the energy of the crowd to know what you see on youtube only shows a very limited view of how judges feels and sees. The result is what it is, without it we wouldn't be where we are today. Maybe it was destiny, who knows.

Regardless how I have felt about the programs and the results, I have never claimed anyone is robbed, but I do like to ask the questions and make analysis just like any other fan, and it is up to the readers themselves to decide for whether the results was based entirely on what went on ice that day, or something else. If you are firm on your believes then so be it.

This thread is incredibly stupid. The very fact the OP is having to argue Ando being worthy of the victory at an event she skated close to her best and Kim was below average for her standards already says it all. Lets put it simply, would Ando have a prayer in hell to beat the Kim of the 2010 Olympics or 2013 Worlds or even 2009 Worlds even if she skated perfectly with 3-3s (which she hasnt been capable of since 2007), and a quad salchow? Answer is obviously no. Next.

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I don't want to compare her at past olympic with kim
I said I am saying in hypothetic situation if ando is in top form, and had much more reputation like she did at 2011 Worlds.

and in 15# I said i will change my opinions a bit. if kim does clean programs, it would be so hard to beat for ando.
but when kim have similar mistakes with ando in top form who doing same difficulty jumps? it was proved in 2011 Worlds that Judge's attitude about kim is worse when kim is not at the best and very tied with rivals. She is just becoming a ordinary top skater. as i said above, based on results of 2011 Worlds(2011 worlds is the best example to compare them, ando was in good form, it is where they competed in last time), pcs, goe on jump/step/spin, there was no big difference when ando was the top skater of the season. So, in this position, Ando has more advantage.

Miki is the same class with kim. she has no Oly gold. But as same with her, Miki is two time world champion.

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Kim is an Olympic and two time World Champion. An Olympic Gold is worth about 2 World titles so basically Kim is a four time World Champion and Ando a two time. Even an Olympic Gold plus 1 World title is way better than just 2 World titles, let alone 2 World titles plus the Olympics.

Lets compare their careers. 3 World or Olympic Golds including Olympic Gold, 3 Grand Prix final titles, 7 World or Olympic medals including medals in all 7 entered vs 2 World or Olympic Golds, no Olympic medal of any color, 0 Grand Prix final titles, and only 3 World or Olympic medals. Comparing Ando's career to Kim the two are in another league and many levels apart, just as the two are as skaters.

Most consider Kim the best ever. Most dont even consider Ando top 30 all time. Comparing the two is like comparing Yagudin to Todd Eldredge.

Kim is an Olympic and two time World Champion. An Olympic Gold is worth about 2 World titles so basically Kim is a four time World Champion and Ando a two time. Even an Olympic Gold plus 1 World title is way better than just 2 World titles, let alone 2 World titles plus the Olympics.

Lets compare their careers. 3 World or Olympic Golds including Olympic Gold, 3 Grand Prix final titles, 7 World or Olympic medals including medals in all 7 entered vs 2 World or Olympic Golds, no Olympic medal of any color, 0 Grand Prix final titles, and only 3 World or Olympic medals. Comparing Ando's career to Kim the two are in another league and many levels apart, just as the two are as skaters.

Most consider Kim the best ever. Most dont even consider Ando top 30 all time. Comparing the two is like comparing Yagudin to Todd Eldredge.

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I just thought ando's career is comparable to yuna kim in terms of number of big titles..
anyway, Many remembers How many times who won world title much more than who won silver or bronze in Worlds many times, or how many times won GPF

I just thought ando's career is comparable to yuna kim in terms of number of big titles..
anyway, Many remembers How many times who won world title much more than who won silver or bronze in Worlds many times, or how many times won GPF

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Lets only look at their Olympic and World titles:

Olympic Gold >>>> World gold
World gold = World gold
World gold >>>>>>>>>> Nothing (since we have already used up all of Ando's Olympic or World golds already)

Kim is way ahead even then. An Olympic Gold and 2 World titles is not comparable to 2 World titles. An Olympic Gold and 1 World title is comparable to 3 World titles perhaps.