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On further reflection, I'm not certain that the Dornish should be able to recruit Norvosi axemen... *Maybe* they could hire a unit from time to time as mercenaries (though this should be *very* limited), but I really like the idea of having them as a retinue attachment.

Are there any other special recruitable units we can think up, for either the Dornish or the Ironborn?

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So far, our factions appear to be fairly different in flavor, and I can't think of any required unique units that only appear in a few locations. Interestingly, the Dornish, Ironborn, and North will, in my view, fight fairly similarly on the battlefield, with emphasis on hard, fast-hitting infantry, at least with the unit-set we have now.

Could we add a variant of Hashashin to the Dornish faction? I'd like to emphasize hit-and-run/ambush tactics more with them, so their skirmisher units should be fairly effective. Remember, we know their population is low, so a lot of their battles are going to be defensive.

Also, is the "fighting in desert" penalty added in the game? In MTW1, heavily armored units tired so rapidly in the desert that the French and Germans had trouble there. The English were possibly the only faction to fight the Muslims on equal terms, using Irish Gallowglasses (the only reason to invade Ireland) and longbowmen. I'd like to see similar things where the Dornish would get both "bonus while fighting in desert" abilities as well as heavy armor getting penalties.

Possibly for general faction ideas, Dornish units should be smaller and take longer to recruit (again, small army size) but be much more effective than any of their counterparts, barring possibly the Ironborn.

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My only concern is that I'm hesitant to try and manipulate the game for play balance...

I know that the Dornish prefer hit-and-run tactics, and I'd imagine that the bulk of their armies will usually be skirmishers. Moreover, I'd agree that the units they recruit should generally be smaller in number. However, I'd think that their militia units would be of the same size or larger than the average... the Dornish are fiery people, and quick to take up arms when angered. I don't know that these units would take longer to recruit.

Likewise, the Stony Dornish would be more Andal in character, and most armored units available would be cheapest/quickest to recruit here. I'd allow the Sandy Dornish to recruit knights if they wanted... but they'd be slow, small units... and would take a lot of groundwork to build. Comparatively, places like Spottswood (recall that Aron Santagar was Master-at-Arms for King's Landing) should be able to build armored units from the start, just like their northern counterparts.

Finally, I'd disagree that the average Dornish unit is more effective than their northern counterparts. However, I could see the average Dornish militia being more effective than most... though I don't know that their morale is necessarily higher.

[On a side note, is it possible to increase the morale of defenders? Or defenders on home territory? That could make things quite interesting... and realistic.]

I like the penalties for armored units in desert. Accurate, as the two weapons of the Dornish are the spear *and* the sun, and the sun is the more deadly... at least according to the Young Dragon.

Finally, I don't think the Northmen are going to be that similar to the Dornish or the Ironborn in their layouts. I think they'll be closer to the Andals, with a good reliance on Cavalry. It will, of course, be tempered by a good number of infantry as well. I think the North and the Andals, alike, will have access to nearly every type of troop... though perhaps not the spears or mounted archers of Dorne, nor the skirmishing axemen of the Iron Islands. But infantry, polearmsmen, cavalry, archers, etc... the North has access to them all.

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Ah, yes, I did mean the Dornish elite should be smaller than most, not the militia and peasantry.

One unit of archers to take for an example is the Foresters. Only recruitable if you have a high-ranking woodsman's guild, they have fewer numbers but are still incredibly lethal, since their accuracy is so high.

As to the North, I reconsidered that. You're probably right, but we'll get there when we get there.

One way to model the difference between sandy and stony Dornish would simply be the buildings in the area. Skirmishers and the 'desert' troops could only be trained after a certain building is built, which all the sandy dornish settlements start with. If you want to get the stony Dornish training them as well, you can. The stony Dornish, by contrast, would start with armories and other buildings necessary for the heavier infantry, which the sandy dornish could build if they so chose.

Also, I'd like to add units to my Dornish list, namely Armored Swordsmen and Armored Spearmen. Higher-ranking heavy infantry equivalent to the Andal troops, but slower to recruit. Bear in mind that they would suffer the same penalty for fighting in the desert as their Andal brethren.

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They're there as the Stony Spearmen and Stony Swordsmen... spearmen and swordsmen with mail, sword/spear, and shield. I broke them down by location, as the armored nature is described, and the location shows where the units are more easily recruited...

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I interpreted Merentha's suggestion of 'armored' spearmen and swordsmen as medium infantry types, and included them as my Stony swordsmen and spearmen. I distinguished 'armored' infantry from 'heavy' infantry, as he also suggested a 'Dornish Guard', which were described as heavy infantry capable of a phalanx formation. I included this suggestion as a 'Dornish Guards' unit at the top of the list, in plate and mail.

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First, I figure that there should be a militia unit made up of Sandy Dornish wielding spears: thus Sandy Spearmen under Militia. I also thought that there should be a regular infantry type made up of Sandy Dornish wielding spears: thus Sandy Spearmen under Infantry. One is in padded armors (militia) and one is in leather (light infantry).

As to giving the Dornish two tiers of heavy infantry... is there anything in the books that we see that suggests this as a possibility? We don't see even one tier of heavy armored infantry, nor even medium infantry...

It stands to reason, however, that the medium types of infantry exist: we know that the Stony Dornish are more akin to their Andal neighbors, and being out of the deserts, are more likely to wear heavier armors. Thus, I can see units wearing mail.

Further, along those same lines, it seems reasonable that the Stony Dornish could conceivably equip heavy infantry in plate and mail. However, I don't know how common fully plated (that second tier of heavy infantry) infantry troops are, even in the Reach. Given that the heaviest we usually see is plate and mail, I don't see the Dornish having that many levels of armored infantry.

As a side note, remember that cities containing leatherworks and blacksmith shops can improve the armors worn by a unit, so if the Dornish player *really* wanted a heavily armored infantry, they could build up their armory buildings, and upgrade their units.

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As a further note, I don't think we should really end up with nearly as many units as are available in the vanilla game... we should have less. Remember, the units in M2TW represent a couple hundred years worth of technological advancement... what's really the difference between mounted sergeants, mailed knights, and feudal knights? The base armor, yes... but that can be changed by armor upgrades. It's partly skill... but that can be changed with veteran experience. I think a lot has to do with providing new unit types as time progresses. Perhaps a better example would be to compare feudal knights with knights templars, or chivalric knights, or what have you... all are similarly equipped.

In ASOIAF, the time horizon is so short that there are no advances in technology. Thus, there's no reason to have three types of mounted knights. We're not going to see the Dornish *develop* armored spears. They'll recruit spearmen infantry... and if they want them armored, they can upgrade the unit at a blacksmiths.

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Rather than giving their assassins subterfuge bonuses, is it possible for all their assassins to start with bonus traits that improve their chance of murder, but not their chance of sabotage? Not a significant bonus either, maybe +1 or +2 at most.

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Maester, on further consideration, good modifications. We do need names for the multiple "sandy-stony x", but that can be wrangled later.

I'm not sure I like the "stony swordsmen (militia)" variant, since, in my opinion, militia shouldn't be using swords often. Axes and spears, certainly. Perhaps they could be replaced by a more generic 'dornish peasantry' unit, armed with the knives/pitchforks of the others.

Edit:

Heavy Infantry

- Dornish Guards (Plate & Mail)

Medium Infantry

- Stony Men-at-Arms(Mail)

- Stony Sergeants (Mail)

Light Infantry

- Stony Swordsmen (Leather)

- Stony Spearmen (Leather)

- Sandy Spearmen (Leather)

- Sandy Sergeants (leather)

Smallfolk/Militia

- Sandy Spear militia (Padded)

- Stony Spear militia (Padded)

- Dornish smallfolk (Padded, analogous to peasants)

Sandy sergeants, while lightly armored, should be able to inflict massive casualties on enemies. In the desert, I'd like it if the sandy sergeants (we really need new names...) would be able to beat a unit of stony sergeants, with the opposite occuring elsewhere.

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You're probably right on the issue of a Dornish militia armed with swords. I suppose that the smallfolk should be limited to spears, regardless of whether they're stony or sandy. I don't see the Dornish smallfolk with axes so much... a spear is the easiest basic weapon to make... take a staff and sharpen one end. :) And the Dornish do love their spears.

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If it's possible to give terrain-based modifiers, I think that we could achieve the Sandy beating Stony in the desert, and vice versa. Beyond that, I don't know that they should be 'devastatingly' effective. Remember the Young Dragon's words: The Dornish have two primary weapons: the spear and the sun... and the latter is more deadly. Spears are spears... the Dornish are better with spears than the average spearmen, but not ridiculously so.

As for naming, I'm still waiting to hear if we can make units unique to the place of their creation (and also able to be traced back). If that's the case, then the units could be identified by banners as belonging to a particular Lord bannerman... perhaps it's possible that units carry two banners (or two banners on one post)? The top banner, of course, being that of the Overlord (i.e. Martell or Stark), and the bottom banner being that of the Lord who raised the troops (i.e. Yronwood or Karstark). Not only would this add a *lot* of flavor (and, admittedly, create a lot of extra labor to skin the troops), but the naming becomes easier. Instead of Sandy Dornish units, you'd have Dalt Spearmen (Dalts being Sandy Dornish) and Santagar Spearmen (Santagar being Stony)... or by the castle, as castles can change possession, so Lemonwood Spearmen (Dalts...) and Spottswood Spearmen (Santagar...).