checked the page, its the same crap you just copied over. how can you say where its comming from? i don't see a name of a specific guy. and again: please answer my questions about that data. if they are so reliable and fantastic it should not be difficult to answer. so?

Axl .. although I will not insist that AL KHALID is better than T-90 because I would remind my fellow Pakistani's that Russia has been making tanks since last what 100 or 75 years, whereas for Pakistan we have just started.

However, as regards the configuration and details of Al Khalid, I will just remind you that Al Khalid is not a tank which is not shown to foreign delegates .. many have seen it in action under different situations.

Now if Pakistan was claiming the sky than would you not think that the countries showing interest would be a disgusted at loosing their time in a fruitless equipment and than go public against Pakistani claims .. I mean leave Saudia .. they are close friends of Pakistan, even Iran had a look at AL KHALID, now would you not think that wasting their time would make sure that we hear bad remarks in Iranian newspaper regarding Al Khalid ???

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 03:47 AM

although I will not insist that AL KHALID is better than T-90 because

You should not insist that AL-KHALID is better than T-90 because its a fact that Al-Khalid is worthy then T-90 and half of the world has claimed his supremancy.

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 10:21 AM

Nope!!!!! hehe

So you belongs from a gayland which is not Indian nor Hindustani

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Interests:I like replying in Pakistani Defence Forum.My favourite sports are football,horse riding and swimming.I want to join Pakistan Army as my father and one cousin.I like to know and search Pakistan Army latest inventory.

Location:Pano Aqil

Posted 03 November 2003 - 10:34 AM

India’s Tank Force Not As Potent As Numbers IndicateNEWTOWN, Conn., January 9, 2002 - A comparative analysis of India and Pakistan tank forces finds that India’s superiority in numbers is questionable. In the wake of the military standoff between the two nations, Forecast International’s Weapons Group finds it is more than raw numbers that count.

"Nearly all of these tanks are in bad disrepair and in need of major overhaul," said Forecast International’s Weapon Systems Analyst Greg Fetter. "Most of India’s T-55s have never been overhauled or modified and more than 90 percent of India’s T-54/T-55 inventory is considered non-operational."

The condition of the T-72, the mainstay of India’s armored force, is not much better, according to Fetter.

"These tanks need a major overhaul and at least 70 percent of the inventory is not considered fully battleworthy," he said.

Fetter said India’s Avadi tank production and retrofit facility has been riddled with bureaucratic inefficiency, which has greatly hindered its effectiveness. Contributing to the sad state of affairs has been the disastrous program to develop an indigenous tank, the Arjun.

"This debacle cost India over $1.23 billion and explains why the necessary maintenance, overhauls and upgrades for the T-72 and other Indian tanks have not been funded," Fetter said.

The single bright spot in India’s tank program is the acquisition of the Russian T-90, but the first of these has only just arrived in knock-down state. Even after assembly, crews for the new tanks will need extensive training.

"The new T-90 tank cannot be considered a viable component in India’s armored force structure until mid-year and even then in small numbers," Fetter said.

Pakistan’s tank inventory, while significantly smaller than India’s, has been much better maintained and upgraded over the years. The Taxila facility, built with Chinese aid, can undertake any level of modernization and retrofit of existing tanks as well as the assembly and manufacture of new production tanks and components.

"In terms of numbers, Pakistan’s Type 59 (licensed T-54) represents the country’s largest single tank type," Fetter said. "The nation has implemented and maintained a major and comprehensive modernization and retrofit effort for these tanks."

This effort, plus similar ones for Type 69-IIMP, has made these tanks fully battleworthy. The Type 85-IIAP, one of two tanks being manufactured, is a modern design that is well maintained and ready for combat.

Both Pakistan and India have worked at developing an indigenous tank but Pakistan has been more successful with its program. However, as the first order for fifteen tanks has yet to be fully delivered, this new tank cannot figure in any comparative analysis, at least for some time.

The star of Pakistan’s tank inventory is the T-80UD and the reason why India ordered the T-90 from the Russia. The Pakistani T-80UD tanks are fully operational and can deal with any Indian tank including the new T-90.

THIS OF WHAT INDIAS ARMOUR INVENTORY CONSIST OF IN THIS ARTICLE THERE IS CLEAR CUT INDICATED THAT OUR T-80UD ARE EQUAL TO T-90 AND YOU INDIANS OR X-INDIANS ARE SAYING THAT T-90 IS EQUAL TO AL-KHALID I THINK YOU ARE IN DREAMS WAKE UP!!!!!

CHEERS

:pkflg) :pkflg) :pkflg) :SNIPER: :SNIPER:

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Interests:I like replying in Pakistani Defence Forum.My favourite sports are football,horse riding and swimming.I want to join Pakistan Army as my father and one cousin.I like to know and search Pakistan Army latest inventory.

THES ARE THE SPECIFICATION OF T-80UD I THINK THEY ARE QUITE SAME AND MATCH WITH T-90.

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Interests:I like replying in Pakistani Defence Forum.My favourite sports are football,horse riding and swimming.I want to join Pakistan Army as my father and one cousin.I like to know and search Pakistan Army latest inventory.

Location:Pano Aqil

Posted 04 November 2003 - 05:30 AM

Artilleryfire ... can you cool down a bit!

Vaiar has said nothing wrong to you as yet but you keep hitting on him .. Don't forget he is our guest and to insult one is not nice.

DEAR MUST7:-

I AM NOT HITING HIM I AM JUST TELLING HIM ABOUT AL-KHALID SUPREMANCY OVER T-90 AND INDIA'S MBTs.

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Interests:I like replying in Pakistani Defence Forum.My favourite sports are football,horse riding and swimming.I want to join Pakistan Army as my father and one cousin.I like to know and search Pakistan Army latest inventory.

Location:Pano Aqil

Posted 04 November 2003 - 05:57 AM

THERE IS AN OTHER PROBLEM WITH T-90 IN DESERT THEY INDIANS OFFICIAL DONOT WANT TO BUY THIS TANK BECAUSE:-

Problems, however, emerged once daytime trials began, with the power packs de-rating and at least one of three tank engines suffering extensive damage in high desert temperatures. Official sources said officials at army headquarters, inexplicably desperate to acquire the T-90s, reportedly dismissed the overheating as teething problems.”

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Interests:I like replying in Pakistani Defence Forum.My favourite sports are football,horse riding and swimming.I want to join Pakistan Army as my father and one cousin.I like to know and search Pakistan Army latest inventory.

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 07:35 AM

They still want to buy it BUTTHEAD!

SORRY PB MIND I FORGOTTEN TO PUT 'SOME' IN IT.I HAVE READ IT ON A SITE BY SEARCHING IN GOOGLE.IN THAT ARTICLE THERE WAS WRITTEN THAT SOME INDIANS OFFICAILS ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH T-90 PERFORMANCE.

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Now i am going to defend the Arjun MBT , and i believe there are reasons that Arjun MBT will simply survive a one-on-one ecounter with AK because of several factors like

AK has an ERA,ie Explosive Reactive Armour which is superior/equal to the Shtotra ERA on the T-90S.
Having said that Arjun has composite armour similar to that found on Abrams.Okay that is similar not equal but certainly enough to defend itself.

Now if you can imagine a AK and Arjun getting a oneonone dual.Lets assume say AK hits Arjun a shot and it is a bulls-eye shot...the probablity that Arjun survives is very very high because it is simply well armoured...the round from AK will simply not penetrate the Arjun ,Now the Arjun goes on to reply and it scores a shot a direct one...triggering the ERA of AK......So the AK survives too.but wait for the next round.AK has simply lost its armour !

Thats because the ERA uses explosives to thwart away the projectile so there MAY not be enough to defend the tank again.But the case with arjun is that it is armoured with composite armour..which simply withstands the shot without any fuss.

The next major weak point about T90S and AK is crew protection.
Both have zero protection in terms of ammo seperation.
ARJUN has ammo seperation.

Go on and ask why IA did not induct Arjun in large numbers...

Thats because it is 3 times as costly as a T90S ...and needs a new infrastructure and et all.It is costly because it is really worth it.It is a different class of tank belonging to that of Leopards.Even France and Germant maintain only 400 odds of these tanks.Believe me they are so expensive but worth it when it boils down to the day.

Claims that Arjun is heavy is because of the Armour alone !. (atleast major increase)

Dont flame about and laugh around Arjun FCS issues.They HAVE been rectified.Engine overheat and all major and for that factor minor factors have been sorted out.the first 124 tanks from Avadi are rolling with 3-4 tanks ready for delivery.

believe me guys the Avadi tank factory was simply not tooled enough for producing Arjun .Thats after producing BMP-2s and T-72s for years togethers...
Thats is the level of technology that goes into Arjun....

SIMPLY ARJUN and AK are different.While ARJUN is the definite leader in "heavy" ,"well armoured" tanks...others like T90S or your own AK may well be the leader in case of "light","very manouverable","agile" ,"cheap" tanks.

the word cheap is in comparision with heavy tanks.

So there is simply no point in comparing ARJUN and AK.I am willing to discuss T90S later.But now gtg.

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 08:28 AM

Now if you can imagine a AK and Arjun getting a oneonone dual.Lets assume say AK hits Arjun a shot and it is a bulls-eye shot...the probablity that Arjun survives is very very high because it is simply well armoured...the round from AK will simply penetrate the Arjun ,Now the Arjun goes on to reply and it scores a shot a direct one...triggering the ERA of AK......So the AK survives too.but wait for the next round.AK has simply lost its armour

ARJUN WOULD SHOT WHEN HE WOULD BE DEVELOPED (w00t) (w00t) (w00t)

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Interests:I like replying in Pakistani Defence Forum.My favourite sports are football,horse riding and swimming.I want to join Pakistan Army as my father and one cousin.I like to know and search Pakistan Army latest inventory.

So why indians give the production to them if it was not well for producing arjun.

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Interests:I like replying in Pakistani Defence Forum.My favourite sports are football,horse riding and swimming.I want to join Pakistan Army as my father and one cousin.I like to know and search Pakistan Army latest inventory.

Location:Pano Aqil

Posted 04 November 2003 - 09:48 AM

Whether Al-Khalid is the best....remains unanswered. This can only be answered on the battlefield. I hope I never see that day.

AL-KHALID HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THE HALF OF THE QUESTION,THAT IS AFTER STAYING 1 WHOLE YEAR IN DESERT AND IN FULL READY CONDITION THERE WAS NO DEFFECT FOUNDED IN AL-KHALID. :SNIPER: :SNIPER:

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Now if you can imagine a AK and Arjun getting a oneonone dual.Lets assume say AK hits Arjun a shot and it is a bulls-eye shot...the probablity that Arjun survives is very very high because it is simply well armoured...the round from AK will simply penetrate the Arjun ,Now the Arjun goes on to reply and it scores a shot a direct one...triggering the ERA of AK......So the AK survives too.but wait for the next round.AK has simply lost its armour !

Come on guy, that is simply bullshit. Do you think tanks have hitpoints or something?

Avadi WAS not tooled enough to produce a heavy tank as Arjun ,so it needed time to upgrade its facilities.That took some time ,so now the production is going on,already a couple or so tanks have been sent for the Army.
The IA is putting the tanks on extensive trials again to iron out if there are any problems.So far nothing has come up , atleast upto what i know..,,

Let me say this :: ARJUN HAS CLEARED ALL ITS TRIALS.

A few years back there were the engine overheat ,suspension and FCS related problems.Let me assure all these have been RECTIFIED.When you are building a tank of this nature you are sure you get problems.Heck it is a part of engineering cycle.The new FCS is local made at Bharat Electronics Limited.

Vajar ::: i dont suggest hit points but i do point out the fact that Al-Khalid has an ERA armour that is not really difficult to penetrate as compared to the composite armour on Arjun.I am not saying this because composite armour is used in Arjun and ERA in AK.But it truly is a fact.For reference you may look up the T-72 versus Abrams duels in first gulf war.

Regarding the Rifle vs smoothbore i still do not have any clues..any links please anybody

ArtilleryFire nobody disputes the fact that AK is good.But you stil have to look into what the otherside argument is.

My personal take on the AK is that it looks like a decent tank for its class. However, it would be nice to have more info on the FCS.

On rifled and smoothbore guns.

AFAIK the advantage of a rifled gun is it is supposed to be more accurate at long range. In ODS, a Challenger 1 (with its rifled gun) knocked out an Iraqi tank at 5km. However, succesful long range shots are also dependent on the FCS, ammo, training and conditions. Another advantage is that the rifled gun can fire a round called HESH, a good multipurpose round (which IIRC the main reason why the Brits stuck to rifled).

AFAIK the disadvantage of a rifled gun is that it gets worn out faster. So its not very economical. Another disadvantage is that nearly everybody else, except Britain, uses smoothbore now, so your potential suppliers for rounds are very limited. If u are fielding a 120mm gun, than it means that u cant use those nice American, German, France or Israeli rounds. Your only source is Britain or u can develop your own rounds (which might not be as good).

Off late i have discovered that ATGMS with tandem warheads (like konkur) easily penetrate ERA.Although i do not know about tandem warheads i would like to point out that IA has bought a few konkurs ( variant ? ) and the new NAG will also have a tandem warhead.
This makes both AK and T90S more vulnerable to "each other" if they both can fire missiles.Also i do not think very high mobility is required in the battlefield,although a good degree of it is required in todays stand-off range weapons their utility is questionable

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 03:47 AM

HEY GUYS LOOK ARJUN TRAGIC CAPABLITIES AND TOUGHNESS IN DESERT:-

Arjun fielded by the 43rd Armoured Regiment participated in the 48th Republic Day parade on 27 January 1997. Delivery of the prototype lot was completed in April, field trials were again declared completed and series production was to start in early June '97.

However, the list of faults after twenty years of development was not encouraging. In addition to unspecified but numerous technical modifications to its fire and gun control systems (the Commanders Periscopic Sight, the Laser Warning Sight and the Muzzle Reference Sight have been found 'unreliable'), the fire control system in particular has been found unable to perform in temperatures above 42 degrees Celsius. The DRDO has been comptemplating scraping the current Arjun FCS in favour of whatever is accepted for the T-72M1 upgrade programme.

Since the Arjun extends 6cm beyond the official 3cm limit on either side of a standard Indian flatbed railcar, strategic transport would be extremely difficult. This would also require that India refurbish large sections of her rail network, as well as acquiring new rolling stock (This is nothing new, as the Germans had this problem with the ÔTiger' Mk VI in World War II). It's width and weight, Indian Rail to charge the Army over-dimensional consignment (ODC) costs, which are 150% over normal costs. The Indian Ministry of Defence allocated US$ 3.9 million (R165 million) to develop three Arjun-capable flatbed rail cars wagon by January 1999.

The German MTU MB 838 Ka-SOl 1 ,4OOhp diesel engine and transmission derated at high temperatures, with an estimated 20-25% powerloss from engine to drive sprocket while operating in desert temperatures of 45-500 Celcius. Ammunition stowage had to be reduced in order to increase engine cooling and the 15th PPS can not fire over the engine deck at 00 elevation because of the bulky cooling pack. This powerpack choice also resulted in bulges in the hull side walls.

The problems with the hydropneumatic suspension can possibly be linked to the Arjun's difficulty in climbing sand dunes and other obstacles easily, with a sharp drop in speed in its attempt to do so. Furthermore, the inert gases needed would be another item added to the supply trains.

As of mid-year, the 15th Arjun Mk I was to be the basis for the production model4. The defects noticed during the user trials of Mk.1 , including overheating of the engine in Rajasthan desert areas, had been 'by and large overcome' and certain other complaints were being addressed. CVRDE has mostly rectified the other problems in the hydro-pneumatic suspension.

Another problem in the Arjun's development was that more than half the components (FCS, engine, transmission unit, tracks, thermal sight, night sight) are imported, with the design components 1970's and 80's vintage.

Furthermore, the technology transfer agreements for the imported engine, gun control system, fire-control system had most vendors (like MTU and Holland's Oldelft, which makes the LRS 5 Fire Control System) producing components in India in a phased manner.

The production of 100 Arjun Mk.1 MBTs was expected to start by late 1997 (during the Ninth Defence Plan) at an estimated cost of US$ 2.8 million [Rs. 10 crores] each, though the Army feels that the 100-tank lot might take more than five years, given the capacity at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory near Chennai and its commitments to various sectors of the armed forces. The first production tank was promised by 19985.

A later claim by DRDO stated that it needed up to (Rs 1,800 crores) to produce 120 tanks over the next five years, with each one costing US $ 4.2 million [Rs 15 crores] (about a 2,000 % increase in project cost since 1974).

Another cost estimate figured that the Arjun will be over Rs 26 billion by 2001 for two or three regiments (124 tanks), totalling around US $5.6 million (Rs 200 million) per tank. This escalating estimate does not include the cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support for the Arjun's induction into service, which is estimated at over (Rs 5 billion).

One reported Government-sanctioned figure for Arjun development and T-72M1 upgrade (with most going to the Arjun) is US $1.12 Billion (Rs 40 billion) spread out over the next three to five years.

Despite promises made by the Finance Minister, Mr. P. Chidambaram, that lack of funds would not come in the way of India's defence needs, some officials were skeptical over deadlines being maintained by the production and subcontractors which might result not only in cost escalation but also affect defence preparedness. Detractors think that (baring drastic changes) the country's progressively shrinking defence budget, coupled with the persistent technical problems, would delay any serious Arjun serial production until 2002/2004.

In early August, 1997 General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, Army chief of staff, promised officers and soldiers of the 13th Armoured Regiment that the Arjun would enter production soon. Less than two months later, DRDO was shaken by the desertion of scores of military scientists and engineers lured to the more lucrative private sector, jeopardizing the success of the Arjun project.

As of 18 September, the Indian Parliament approved a $6.9 Billion (250 billion Rupee) Five-Year Defence Budget. In this 1997-2002 budget, some 40 Billion Rupees has been allocated for the Ajeya rebuild programme, and another 1 Billion Rupees for the first 100 Arjuns.

Yet BG D. R. Gole went on record in October saying that the Arjun's Fire Control System has a 20-80% First Shot hit ratio. The DRDO blamed this on the test crew from the 43rd Cavalry, whom they accused of having a mindset left-over from the T-72M1's (which cannot fire on the move). Before official acceptance, the Army wants the tank lightened, fitted with an internal APU and reactive armour.

In mid-November, DRDO chief A.P.J. Abdul Kalam told a closed-door meeting of his ministry's Parliamentary Consultative Committee that the Arjun had been tested for 20,000 km and cleared for 'limited series production'.

Before a crowd at the National Defence Academy in early December, the Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ved Prakash Malik denied that Arjun's induction into the army was being delayed and added that some unspecified tests and improvements had to be carried out before the army could accept them.

By early May, 1998, the US decision to impose sanctions on India could possibly jeopardize the Arjun's further development, since some US companies were supplying elements of the main gun-sighting and fire-control systems for the Arjun tank. There was also speculation as to whether Germany would stop supplying MTU engines. Arjun Executive Board (AEB) narrowed their choices for an FCS to Thomson CSF and Elbit of Israel (which could also be used in the T-72M1 ÔRhino'). The imported components used in the Arjun rose from 27% in the 1987 Prototype to 60% in the current PPS version.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the Summer 1997 trials, released in mid-1998, noted six premature transmission failures and frequent overheating of the transmission fluid, probably because the imported transmission assembly had been overloaded.

The latest estimate is that the first Arjun MBT would roll out in 2000, with 20 to 30 more manufactured per year. After the 124 Arjun I's are finished, the Arjun II would begin series manufacture.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH ALL THESE CAPABILITIES WHEN IT IS UNDER DEVELOPEMENT.ARJUN IS EXTRAODINARY TOUGH IN DESERT BECAUSE IT CAN GIVE 100% RESULT IN ONLY 42 DEGREES CELCIUSE (w00t) (w00t) (w00t)

I THINK THE ARJUN BEST PLACE FOR ITS INDUCTION IS JUNK BIN :)Clp :)Clp :)Clp

AL-KHALID IS BEST AND ITS READY TO KICK INDIAN MBTs BUTT. :pkflg) :pkflg) :pkflg)

SOME INDIANS SAY THAT THE PERFORMANCE OF ARJUN MEETS AMERICAN ABRAMS I THINK THOSE PEOPLE ARE

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 05:25 AM

Tejas

i dont suggest hit points but i do point out the fact that Al-Khalid has an ERA armour that is not really difficult to penetrate as compared to the composite armour on Arjun.I am not saying this because composite armour is used in Arjun and ERA in AK.

The AK actually has a composite armour and the ERA is added to it After the Tank is completely developed and this makes double armour protection! :Dbanana

Interests:I like replying in Pakistani Defence Forum.My favourite sports are football,horse riding and swimming.I want to join Pakistan Army as my father and one cousin.I like to know and search Pakistan Army latest inventory.

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 06:31 AM

These are the things from which is Al-Khalid is equipped to give protection to his crew members i think it would refine indians senses.Wtitting in order.

See Al-Khalid is double gaurded while very sorry to say ( ( your Arjun is single gaurded so you should must do something for his crew protection when he would be inducted in indian army if any more defaults will not be found and i think arjun will be inducted in indian army something late of this millinium. (w00t) (w00t)

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

ArtilleryFire :
FYI all tanks have some sort of composite frontal armour but that is somewhat similar to going into rain with a rain-cap without a rain-coat.Only your head is protected.Your post itself contains the words "frontal arc" In the case of Arjun the whole tank is protected by composite armour.At 48 tonnes i wonder how AK can handle composite armour to defeat ATGM with tandem warheads.

Also nobody has answered my question about crew-protection.

And ALL those problems have been ironed out.And again please visit pakdef.info and see the article on MBT-2000(AK) before you claim AK as completly indigineous.
I frankly agree Arjun has more foreign components not to that extent as that contained in AK.

Another point i will never claim Arjun equal to Abrams.Just said they are similar.No need to fame about that.

Interests:I like replying in Pakistani Defence Forum.My favourite sports are football,horse riding and swimming.I want to join Pakistan Army as my father and one cousin.I like to know and search Pakistan Army latest inventory.

Location:Pano Aqil

Posted 05 November 2003 - 07:50 AM

ArtilleryFire : FYI all tanks have some sort of composite frontal armour but that is somewhat similar to going into rain with a rain-cap without a rain-coat.Only your head is protected.Your post itself contains the words "frontal arc" In the case of Arjun the whole tank is protected by composite armour.At 48 tonnes i wonder how AK can handle composite armour to defeat ATGM with tandem warheads.

So from where would you fire your ATGMs from the sky. You would fire them from that place where Al-khalid is heading so the composite armour in the frontal arc will take care of that ATGMs.Al-Khalid is provided with all the necessary things for the safety of his crew.

ONE THING I WANT TO ACCEPT OF THE INDIAN TANK ARJUN SUPERIORITY OVER AL-KHALID IS THAT ITS WEIGHT (ARJUN IS DAMN HEAVY).ARJUN IS OVER WEIGHTED UNABLE TO MOVE QUICKLY ON THE BATTLE FIELD.

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '

Vajar ::: i dont suggest hit points but i do point out the fact that Al-Khalid has an ERA armour that is not really difficult to penetrate as compared to the composite armour on Arjun.I am not saying this because composite armour is used in Arjun and ERA in AK.But it truly is a fact.For reference you may look up the T-72 versus Abrams duels in first gulf war.

That's absolutely no argument at all!!! The T-72 was inferior in ever every way to the M1A1's used in the Gulf War. I find it rather amazing how you can compare the Arjun to the M1 and the AK to the T-72. The Arjun is a failed concept and you would be honourful if you could admit that. I am no Pakistani, nor a muslim, so I have to intention to bash India, but just look objectively to that Arjun tank... the idea failed in every possible way. But we were talking about armour levels, right. I think you know tank net, a place were many tank crazy people discuss things about tanks on the internet. A guy from that forum made a site about estimates of armour levels on tanks using materials that were used in discussions on those forums. These guys know what they are talking about, if not convinced you go here yourself.

Estimates of Arjun armour

KE-projectile (like a APFSDS)

Turret: 500-570mmGlacis: 410mm

CE (like a HEAT)

Turret: 650-830Glacis:730

Then the AK which the Pakistanis like here so much

KE

Turret: 590-630 Glacis: 435-455

CE

Turret: 1060 (1260 w/ERA) Glacis: 540 (800w/ERA)

Let's compare that to a modern Western MBT like the M1A2SEP, just to see where you are now.

KE

Turret: 940-960 Glacis:560-590Lower front hull:580-650

CE

Turret: 1320-1620 Glacis:510-1050Lower front hull:800-970

While the AK is driving around already, the Arjun is a too heavy, too low armoured tank equiped with a rifled cannon.

Vaiar
I am not comparing T-72 with M1.But in the gulf war the M1 could stand a couple of shots and go on to kill the T-72 ,which opened itself to the fury of M1 rounds.Abrams had composite armour (whats its name B... ?)and T-72 ,well you know
I looked up the page about armour levels .Its disclaimer itself convinced me that it had quite a few guesstimates about those estimates.But i do respect tank net.You would be kind enough for a couple of days to me? .Ill try to get the near real data atleast.BR has none of it.Should look for other sources

Well now about the whole idea failing ?.Well i think i respect your opinion and i will try to get facts against it.If not no shame in admitting a failure
You have given a new track for thinking.Lend me time ......

Vaiar I am not comparing T-72 with M1.But in the gulf war the M1 could stand a couple of shots and go on to kill the T-72 ,which opened itself to the fury of M1 rounds.Abrams had composite armour (whats its name B... ?)and T-72 ,well you know I looked up the page about armour levels .Its disclaimer itself convinced me that it had quite a few guesstimates about those estimates.But i do respect tank net.You would be kind enough for a couple of days to me? .Ill try to get the near real data atleast.BR has none of it.Should look for other sources

Well now about the whole idea failing ?.Well i think i respect your opinion and i will try to get facts against it.If not no shame in admitting a failure You have given a new track for thinking.Lend me time ......

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 11:50 AM

Vaiar I am not comparing T-72 with M1.But in the gulf war the M1 could stand a couple of shots and go on to kill the T-72 ,which opened itself to the fury of M1 rounds.Abrams had composite armour (whats its name B... ?)and T-72 ,well you know I looked up the page about armour levels .Its disclaimer itself convinced me that it had quite a few guesstimates about those estimates.But i do respect tank net.You would be kind enough for a couple of days to me? .Ill try to get the near real data atleast.BR has none of it.Should look for other sources

Well now about the whole idea failing ?.Well i think i respect your opinion and i will try to get facts against it.If not no shame in admitting a failure You have given a new track for thinking.Lend me time ......

"Updated M1 tanks have extra layers of steel and depleted uranium that supplement the Chobham-style armor. This combination will hold up to any tank round and most missiles (the powerful Hellfire missile is a notable exception)."

I know several M1 got hit by T-72 rounds and these didn't didn't kill the M1s. I posted an extract earlier in this topic about the gun of the T-72 and I have read several times that the Iraqi rounds were not really top of the line. The T-72 NV/IR system could also not see as far as the American ones. The M1 also possesses a greater power to weight ratio etc ......... But new estimates/official data about the Arjun is great. But have you ever seen a non Indian claiming how great the Arjun is? First take a look at the development time, then compare the immense weight of it to comtempory vehicles. You'll find the Leo 2A6 and the American M1A2 in the same weight class and these are far more potent tanks than the Arjun. I don't think India ordered T-90s for nothing.

The first impetus to develop 'energetic' armours began in the 1960s after the expensive glass and ceramic armours proved defficient. The goal of such research was essentially to use the controlled release of energy to somehow destroy a forming HEAT jet. Logically, most of these ideas utilized the compact chemical energy stored in explosives to push some sort of metal plate into the incoming jet. One early idea incorporated the idea of using explosive 'pills' which were a metal plate backed by a thick layer of explosive. This explosive was confined or tamped by metal sidewalls, thus forming a metal pillbox over the explosive. This setup was then stuck on the surface of a tank and was detonated when the HEAT jet penetrated the cover plate, driving the plate into the jet. This idea was later abandoned by Rafael because the design proved unfeasible due to the large amount of explosive necessary to effect any damage against the jet.

Around 1969, a Norwegian working for Rafael by the name of Dr. Manfred Held discovered the drive-plate explosive sandwich design which later became explosive reactive armour. In this design two rectangular metal plates, referred to as the reactive or dynamic elements, sandwich an interlayer of high explosive. This 'box' is set at high obliquity to the anticipated angle of attack by the HEAT jet, usually 60°. When the jet penetrates the outer plate, the explosive is detonated by the pressures involved and the plates are rapidly forced apart; the acceleration is completed in around 6 us. The orientation of the plates to the explosive detonation front accelerates the front plate upwards in the x-y plane and slightly forwards and conversely forces the rear plate downward and slightly backward. The front plate is moving upward through the path of the jet and it exerts a destabilizing force on it, i.e. there are elastic longitudual waves travelling down the length of the jet. The destabilized jet, i.e. undergoing wave motion, then reaches the rear plate, which is moving in the opposite direction to the original plate. The force exerted by the rear plate is essentially a torque when taken with that of the front plate, and this causes the already destabilized jet to break up into many smaller pieces. These smaller pieces exhibit self-destructive behavoir - namely yaw (the equivalent of the high velocity impact belly-flop) and transverse velocity, which causes them to strike seperate areas of the target's armour.

So what are all the destructive effects visited on HEAT jets by ERA? The largest and most obvious result is the break-up of the jet and rotation of its pieces. There are, however, also some secondary effects that should be kept in mind. The first secondary effect on the jet is mass loss. Essentially, the jet must penetrate (or, in reality, perforate) the ERA plates. While in 'light' ERA these plates are relatively thin, the transverse motion of the plates means that the jet must actually generate a 'slot' rather than a 'hole' in the plates. So if the jet must travel through a 3 mm plate set at 60° with an apparent height of 15 mm, the total amount of armour that must be penetrated is twice that (two plates) or 80 mm. However, since in reality the jet is perforating the plates rather than undergoing radial displacement penetration, this is really more equivalent to 60 mm. Still, it is an important factor. Another important factor is the damaging of the tip of the HEAT jet. The tip of a HEAT jet can be moving in excess of 8 000 m/s, while the outer edges may be closer to 3 000 m/s. The tip of a HEAT jet also acheives initial penetration of the target material, and initiates adiabatic phase penetration (target metal flow). Essentially, the tip of a HEAT jet is the most efficient part of the jet, and it allows the rest of the jet to efficiently pile into the hole it generated and force the armour material out of its path. Removing jet head will reduce the penetration of the jet by 30% or more, even though it is a relatively small part of the jet's mass.

These two secondary effects are actually pretty substantial, contributing as much as 50% to the effect of ERA. Part of the reason for this is that jet breakup - the primary defeat mechanism - is a pretty common phenomena. A HEAT jet is a piece of metal undergoing extremely rapid severe plastic destortion, so any tiny defect in the construction of the cone will be magnified by the enormous forces involved, resulting in critical failure of the material during the formation of the HEAT jet, and hence, some (limited) break-up. It wasn't actually until the late 1970s that we were able to design well constructed cones which would produce a continious jet.

This first generation light ERA generates about 350 - 400 mm RHA worth of protection against large calibre warheads for the vehicle equipped with it. This implies an efficiency multiplier of about 20, which is incredibly high. However, ERA is not some magical shield. It will not completely stop the HEAT jet from a RPG - a backing layer of armour is still necessary to absorb the remains of the HEAT jet.

2. Light ERAs Deployment History

Around 1978 concurrent with the deployment of the M111 'Hetz' APFSDS round, an ERA package called 'Blazer' was produced for the Israeli Defence Force's Mag'lach (M60A1 & M48A3) and Sho't (Centurion) tanks. Later, versions were also produced for Ti-67S (retrofitted T-55) tanks. The package for the Mag'lach massed about 1 000 kg and the package for Sho't massed about 850 kg.

The Israeli application of ERA was rather crude, using large blocks which left large null zones in the armour after detonation. However, it still proved to be quite a marvelous applique during Israel's invasion of Lebannon in 1982.

After the demonstration of ERA in Lebannon, Russian planners deployed their own Kontakt EDZ armour starting with the T-80BV in 1983. Kontakt EDZ was not a copy of Israeli Blazer ERA. Kontakt was developed by the Soviets cocurrently with Rafael's developments, but was not initially fielded because of concerns over safety. This was in 1978. The abbreviation EDZ stands for "Elementy Dinamicheskoi Zashity", this translates into something like "dynamic protection elements". Two types of Kontakt blocks exist, the standard 'brick' as well as the 'wedge' which has only a single fixed reactive element. The wedge is used to cover null zones and it partly relies on the overlap of its neigbouring bricks for its effectiveness. By about 1985 all Soviet model tanks in Grouping Soviet Forces Germany had EDZ packages.

The T-80BV usually carried a 210 - 222 block array of Kontakt EDZ which was layered over the turret front and side, as well as the top. The hull was covered over the glacis and two thirds of the way down the sides. The T-64BV, the other tank in service with GsfG at the time, only carried a 115 block array of charges which provided mainly frontal protection. After front-line forces had been equiped with EDZ, T-72A and T-72B tanks, and later T-62M and T-55AM1 tanks began to receive ERA packages. Unlike the T-64B and T-80B tanks, which usually have the suffix 'V' (vzryvnoi - explosive) added to indicate EDZ such as T-64BV, the T-72 when fitted with EDZ is usually not distinguished in this fashion.

Kontakt EDZ was more advanced than Blazer ERA in a couple respects. Firstly, the blocks are on the order of 40% the size of Blazer blocks, which is considerably more demanding in terms of technology of the explosive interlayer. This also means that the amount of underlying armour exposed after a detonation is less. Secondly, Kontakt is a little more clever in its configuration. The brick is assymetric in its explosive interlayer, meaning that one end is thicker than the other. This induces rotation in the plates as well as separation, and as a result the armour is effective against HEAT jets at a wider variety of angles.

3. Kontakt-5 Heavy ERA

The development of Kontakt EDZ logically led to the development of a later version, called Kontakt-5, which was optimized to be effective not only against HEAT jets, but also APFSDS long rods. It was first deployed around 1985 on the first T-80Us. It is claimed that Kontakt-5 provides about 300 mm RHA equivalent of additional protection against APFSDS rounds, which corresponds to an increase of about 160% over the base armour of the T-80U (~720 mm total).

We've done a lot of work to analyze how effective Kontakt-5 is and by what methods it defeats the incoming APFSDS rounds. The results of the analysis are quite impressive in their own rough and limited way. We assumed that the Kontakt-5 brick was 10.5 cm wide by 23.0 cm long by 7.0 cm thick, with a mass of 10.35 kg. We arrived at a total mass of 2.8 t for the array. We later found out from Steven Zagola's literature that the array is supposed to be around three tonnes, so we were pretty happy. Assuming the use of Semtex for the interlayer, I found that the configuration was most likely a 15 mm plate up front, backed by 35 mm of explosive, and then a 20 mm plate. This assymetrical configuration had improved effectiveness because the APFSDS rod could still 'catch' the retreating rear plate while the front plate would retain a charateristic high velocity. This is completely opposite to the model that the US Army used in the late 1980s to discribe 'heavy' ERA. In their model, the front plate was on the order of 60 mm thick and the rear a standard 5 mm plate. They thought that the thick plate simply moved up into the path of the incoming long rod and forced it to make a 'slot' (thickness x height) rather than a hole (thickness). This is bogus; the front plate would tamp the explosive and would be barely set in motion.

Anyway, back to the point. Without getting into the actual math, after a couple of analyses, we arrived at our conclusion as to what defeat mechanisms were being imployed. These conclusions have not yet been conclusively proved and we hope to do that soon. We assumed that the massive areal density of the long rod perforated the thin plates with relative ease. Actual ablatic penetrator mass loss was set at about 2%. What we found was that we had these two plates, each individually with about 60% the momentum of the long rod penetrator, were moving oppositely up/down to each other, and that the path of the penetrator was such that it was moving between them. The forces exerted on the penetrator are apparently very large, so large in fact that they were in the region of plastic failure for most (read: all) metals. Essentially, when the penetrator touches the rear plate, the front plate guillotines off the first 5 - 6 cm of the rod. For a round such as the 120 mm M829A1 this represents a loss of about 8% of the total mass. More importantly, the nose is blunted. You would not believe how important that sharp point on the penetrator is. The difference in penetration between an equivalent hyper-sonic spike tipped penetrator and a blunt nose one is at least 20% (to a maximum of around 30%). This is mainly because a blunt nose is very inefficient in the initial phase of penetration before the ablatic shear phase can begin. The penetrator has to actually sharpen itself to the optimum Von Karam plastic wave theory shape for penetration of the target material before it can begin radially displacing the target material. This resolves itself in the form of a lot of wasted work and thus penetrator mass. The blunted penetrator also suffers structural damage and more mass loss as a shock wave travels down its length and blows spall off the tail. The main secondary effect of Kontakt-5 EDZ against APFSDS rounds is yaw induced by the front plate before contact with the rear plate is established. The total is about two to three degrees of yaw, which suddenly becomes a lot more in a denser material such as steel. Reduction in penetration due to a 2° yaw is about 6% and it grows exponentially worse from there, and on the 67° slope of the front glacis of the T-64/72/80/90, this is increased to about 15%.

Total loss in penetration amounts to about 2% + 8% + 22% + 6% = 38%, or in other words the penetrator is now only capable of penetrating 62% its original potential. Conversely we could say that the base armour is increased by the factor of the reciprocal of 62%, which is - surprise! - 161%.

So was I surprised by the results? Not really. I had expected penetrator yaw to be the primary defeat mechanism, but otherwise we had verified the effectiveness of Kontakt-5 before it became general public knowledge, which is great bragging rights.

Of course, now the goal is to do a rigorous mathematical proof.

Anyway, APFSDS round is defeated by Kontakt-5 (X-ray photo)

Jane's International Defence Review 7/1997, pg. 15:

"IMPENETRABLE RUSSIAN TANK ARMOUR STANDS UP TO EXAMINATION

"Claims that the armour of Russian tanks is effectively impenetrable, made on the basis of test carried out in Germany (see IDR 7/1996, p.15), have been supported by comments made following tests in the US.

"Speaking at a conference on Future Armoured Warfare in London in May, IDR's Pentagon correspondent Leland Ness explained that US tests involved firing trials of Russian-built T-72 tanks fitted with Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armour (ERA). In contrast to the original, or 'light', type of ERA which is effective only against shaped charge jets, the 'heavy' Kontakt-5 ERA is also effective against the long-rod penetrators of APFSDS tank gun projectiles.

"When fitted to T-72 tanks, the 'heavy' ERA made them immune to the DU penetrators of M829 APFSDS, fired by the 120 mm guns of the US M1 Abrams tanks, which are among the most formidable of current tank gun projectiles.

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 03:01 AM

For providing adequate protection to the battletanks against attack by HESH, kinetic energy (KE) and shaped charge warheads, Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) is the best choice

So thats why Pakistanis are using it on AL-Khalid. With Composite Armour on frontal arc and ERA everywhere on Al-Khalid the protection for the crew is 100%

' These Ghazis, these devoted Souls of Your Lordship Whom You Have blessed with zeal of Your worship, Their Legions overcome deserts and rivers, And trample mountains to dust with their fervour, They care not for the world's pleasures, The love of the Lord are their treasures, The mission and aim of the Momin is martyrdom, Not the booty of war, nor crave for a kingdom. '