Great video, even if the subject has been brought up numerous times. A worthy debate, examination and rebuffing is always welcome in these types of affairs.

I know you touched briefly on the whole exclusivity of the male hero "ideal" and how they can be varied and you touched upon the variety of female NPCs, but I wonder if you've played or seen anything of Persona 3 or Persona 4? These characters are not overly sexualized AND have realistic traits and flaws that, in my opinion, should be brought to light in this type of discussion on how to portray different kinds of people correctly. Kanji Tatsumi and Naoto Shirogane are two of the most well thought out characters from Persona 4, as well as Aigis and Junpei from Persona 3. I wonder if, in future episodes, you could touch on these examples of characters and how they impact, not only the player, but the image of the industry?

The point is that men and woman may both be reduced to objects but they are done so thought a heterosexual male perspective (ironically invoking a lot of unintentional homo-erotic iconography but whatever the "Ewwww gay" impulse of the mainstream gaming industry is another discussion) I guess you could call both a form of objectification but men are objectified to be powerful and worshiped.

Gaming essentially takes place in what other forms of media would critique as "The male gaze". We use the protagonists as vessels for ourselves and the female characters are only seen as appealing if we can look at them. You're meant to feel like you're a big powerful dude when you play as a man and place yourself as him in a fighting game but when you play as a woman you're meant to be looking AT her not looking through her eyes in her perspective.

True. There are many "manly men" in Skyrim, but there are also men who don't at all fit that description(Nazeem=prick). Just as there are women in Skyrim who are pretty girly girls, and other women will cut your head off as soon as they look at you(not just the bandits). Some aren't even that pretty either. Though, none on either gender are fat.

That said, Skyrim is kind of the exception that proves the rule. There are many different types of male/female characters because that's what the game is famous for, and that is how they are made almost always.

Many other games can't say that.

I'm talking about this character as an individual nothing to do with Skyrim other than its where he comes from. He is just an example of a man who has been objectified into a killing machine, which isn't nessecarily an ideal that most men want to achieve.

And to set the record straight I love the Elder Scrolls but the characters are some of the worst in existence. They may be diverse but they are all boring forgettable cardboard cut outs.

Ukomba:Don't both genders want to be desirable? Making male characters appeal to men, means making a man whom women want. Old and grizzled can still be attractive to women. Sean Connery won People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59, and there are regularly men over 40. It seems to come down to more what each gender finds attractive and playing to that. Women buy those skimpy outfits and try to pull off those looks even when they shouldn't.

Games are playing up that old 'men are shallow, women are deep' stereotype of what each find attractive. Not necessarily wrongly. My wife can watch Hunchback of Notre Dame and say Esmeralda should have chosen Quasimodo. And it seems just as many women go for the dark, troubled, and brooding Snape as do Edward or Jacob.

For the record, I'd like to see more variety of women in games for variety's sake, but this might be more of a 'men and women are different' issue. I personally like the female avatars. I preferred Fem Shepard to Male Shepard, and had no problem romancing Garrus with her. My wife preferred a blond male renegade Shepard.

*Side question* is Jack from Mass Effect objectified? She wears the skimpiest outfit and I'm sure fits some peoples definition of desirable.

*Side Side note* Is it weird to find Kasumi and Tali the most attractive females in Mass Effect? They are the most covered.

(M)Ass Effect 2 wins the trophy for most objectified women. Aside from Jack, you have Samara, the justicar with high red heels. But the 1st place goes to Miranda, because the camera always focuses on her ass.

Ah, no, I believe you'll find that Final Fantasy X still holds that trophy.

As for ME2. I don't know. I never found Samara attractive, like, at all. Not sure if it was her age, her design, or her personality, she just never came off as an object of desire to me. Same goes for Miranda. Sure she's got a good body, but I just couldn't get over her being an infertile, cloned, gender switched man. Jack didn't seem come off as objectified either. I couldn't romance her either, I just kept seeing her as a wounded child. She was great in ME3.

If big publishers can afford to neglect half the playerbase, there is even less room to justify the greedy business tactics of recent years.Still, I'm glad to be just an observer. They'll either work to find a solution, or they don't.People will vote with their purchases, so we don't actually have to talk about it, we just have to wait it out and let reason take it's course.

I'm lost to the point where good looking female character is nothing but objective but good looking male character is idealized.

DOA for example, all the characters have some story and they are just there to fight for a prize pretty much aside from the volleyball game What makes the females objective but the shirtless guys not. And no being a guy character doesn't put a better story, or get the woman story, it the same thing.

The Ideal woman isn't pretty? Ya I know we all have different tastes but how many of say 100 people are going to write down features like Fat, ugly or hairy. on the topic of boobs and butts tho, ya plastic surgery is pretty big in the us, same for male hairloss. How many male leads of games are balding ;p.

Playing MMO's, the big fat ugly character builds are hardly ever used and when they are used it's people making a joke character male or female, so can you see reasons on not spending a ton of money to make ugly character models.

Face it, Men and Women don't want ugly characters in games, the only that want them are for jokes.

Now in video games this becomes a problem because people will claim that its just a guy with a female skin.

Damn. Just can't win!

Actually I posted why there is a problem with the whole process at one point.

If a game has a female protagonist that is masculine, then its bad because its a masculine character with a female skin.If a game has a female protagonist that is feminine, then its bad because it stereotypes females.If a game has a female protagonist that is genderless, then its bad because once again, its just a male character with a female skin.If a game has a male protagonist then its bad because it isn't female.

I read complaints that fall into these four categories every time. The devs see this too and think "well, we can't win no matter what we do so lets do the safe thing and have a male protagonist"

There are two big problems overall.

1. The way that females are portrayed a lot of the time. The crazy attire and poses need to be removed.

2. No one has ever actually come up with a real solution to specific things rather than just sweeping generalizations. I've actually asked several people and they just make general statements without being to give one solid concrete example of what to specifically do.

The problem that I see is that the concept of a feminine trait is sexist by definition and so you can't be non-sexist and use those traits.

An interesting theory, Jim, but how do you know for sure women wouldn't play games with the kind of protagonists you talk about, just for fun? To me, if any series would have a large female audience, it's Final Fantasy and their "girly men" leads. Also, you left out the approach of male/female sexual characterization from games by Bioware.

And what's this about Bioshock: Infinite's creator intending to make it for the "DudeBro" crowd?

Internet-"Well there is absolutely no evidence but we say it is... so yes it is hurting people."

Me-"Ohh, so what do you plan to do about your problem?

Internet-"Just another wave of over entitled bitching about someone's art form and how things have to change"

Me-"Really? I just don't buy tacos that have tomatoes on them, some people like tomatoes on their tacos so I don't think it has to change"

Internet-"Derp,Derp,Derp"

**Disclaimer**This was a fictional dramatization of a typical conversation with the internet.

Is there a solution in this mire of sexism in video games that doesn't trample all over an artists creative design? Or is it nothing more than a whine about stuff people don't like. I hear thousands of people AGAINST sexism in video games and AGAINST over sexualized women and now even the idealization of men. Never once have I heard someone FOR a solution to this supposed problem, just whiners and the supposed moderates that say we should have discussions about it which is just a cowards way of supporting the whiners by giving credence to their argument.

Would you like some cheese?PHA+OikgSXQncyBnb29kIGNoZWVzZS4gPGJyIC8+PGltZyBzcmM9Imh0dHA6Ly9pbWFnZXNoYWNrLnVzL2EvaW1nNzEzLzI4NDgvYmFza2V0b2ZjaGVlc2U4NzYuanBnIiBhbHQ9ImltYWdlIi8+PGJyIC8+R29lcyB3ZWxsIHdpdGggd2hpbmUuIEkga25vdyBiZWNhdXNlIEkndmUgaGFkIHNvbWUgaGVyZSBhbHJlYWR5LjwvcD4=

Anyway, I think the reason no one talks about a solution is because we all kind of "know" what it is.

We just have to ask/demand more diversity in game characters. Whether or not the developers/publishers listen is another thing. After all like we found out with The Last of Us, they seem to not want to even bring women in to test the game, so I guess all we can do with others is keep asking, or be louder.

Then, all we must do is buy the games with characters that we find to be more diverse(in this particular case, women who aren't made to be overly "sexy"), and maybe tell them why we bought the game with a short email. We can still buy games that don't of course. Heck, buy Dragon's Crown and you can do both. It has some over sexualized female characters, as well as some that aren't like the elf archer.

Also, while people are not being hurt physically, or insulted directly by the overuse of some characters in games. It is making some feel bad, or uncomfortable.

Though some points in this video may be redundant, Jim is not beating a dead horse. The horse is not dead until we see some honest-to-God change in gaming culture.

Also worth mentioning: Can you really blame Jim for going after the topic of "Gender Roles and Gaming" when it has repeatedly generated more discussion than almost any other topic? I'm sure Jim wouldn't continue making episodes about it if the viewers didn't create such a stir each time. That stir can be seen as evidence that the issue is in the back of many people's minds, and therefore needs to be continuously talked about.

DVS BSTrD:That's why they have a whole game world made for them to do just that. The females on the other hand... you don't get 8 hour games about putting on make-up, doing cardio at the gym, sticking to a low fat diet and shopping for impractical fanservice clothing. =/

Well, not any good games anyway.

I know you didn't mean it, but that sounded terribly sexist right there, I think you might want to word it differently... :D

I'm talking about the ideal female in videogames, Not IRL. And a lot of videogames ARE terribly sexist.

If you want things to change, you have to make the effort yourself. You can't point the finger at the industry and accuse them of being sexist pigs just because they're not looking out for your personal interests. That's just lazy. There seem to be plenty of people that are fed up with the way things are, just like there are plenty of people who feel like things are just fine. The people that are fed up should make an assessment of how much they really care, find a group of likeminded individuals and start making the videogames that they themselves would like to see, which is exactly what every other developer out there did. They had a vision and they made it happen, they didn't try to guilt trip some faceless industry into doing it for them. If you can't be bothered to put in the hard work, then maybe you don't really care, maybe you're just looking for something to be mad about.

CalUKGR:The problem is, Jim, that some men in some games are objectified - certainly on a purely visual level. I'd cite Dante, from the most recent DMC game. Both he and his gorgeous-looking twin brother are dreamily good-looking young men, designed by someone with a VERY keen appreciation of male beauty. Personally (and speaking as a gay man) I can't get enough of a look at him (opening cut-scene FTW!).

It is true enough to say that in most games most male characters are indeed idealised; but in a few, like DMC, they are clearly objectified as well - and as us Brits would say: Gwooarh! Eh?

Yeah, its odd that people don't realise that one man's power fantasy is another man's (or woman's) sex fantasy.

It depends on the guy and the girl in question. Dante didn't go shirtless for the guys to look at his abs.

As someone that has used that argument in the past, I do so more to address the issue of self image: specifically that stereotypically men don't look at Kratos and think they need to hit the gym while an attractive female character seems to put off women that can't live up to the big boobs and thin waists. It isn't that I don't get where women are coming from, but I think the wrong message gets taken away. I'm a 35 your old hairy guy with minor acne, crooked teeth, and a beer gut, and I don't get self conscious when I see Dante, or Brad Pitt, or a muscle bound guy in tights in a comic book. I'm not always happy with everything about me, but I know I don't have to live up to some ideal, especially one that can only exist digitally, or through plastic surgery, starvation diets, non-stop exercise, and drugs.

But an element behind these gender topics is that yes, a lot of women still feel the need to live up to the Lara Crofts, and the response is to minimize their usage, not to try and break through their personal beauty myth. I'd like to think that a something women could learn from the guys in these debates is that you don't need to have your self worth dictated by how much you match something designed to be an unrealistic fantasy, and that the problem we do have with the beauty myth, exists less because of the myth's existence, but on people that do seem to think that their fantasy should be reality. Don't attack Lara Croft for being attractive, or anyone that finds her attractive. Attack those that expect you to be her, especially if that someone is yourself.

A line of argument I saw a woman use in another one of these topics in fact. She basically said more or less the same thing, that she doesn't have a problem with these fictional characters as her sense of self worth isn't determined by attractive characters.

A point I can certainly understand and get behind, as I also don't look at any fictional characters and think they are an idealised person I should try and be like.

But I don't think that is the reason for why a lot of people don't like them. I think the reason is because they believe that it reduces women's importance down to their physical appearance, that the characters personality, thoughts and feelings are seen as unimportant, whereas their physical appearance is.

I can definitely follow that line of argument in regards to characters who are practically nothing beyond "sex appeal" such as Rachel from Ninja Gaiden 2; but I also frequently see people who object to women being sexy, even if they are also an amazing character beyond that. Which to me is not a fair judgement to make.

In a thread yesterday somebody used Jill Valentine as an example of a good character who wasn't just there for sex appeal. The rebuke was that she is now more sexy, and that's a bad thing. As if being more sexy negates all of the positive traits about her character.

It suggests to me the idea that a woman cannot be taken seriously if she is also sexually attractive, and that is something I find pretty offensive.

And what's this about Bioshock: Infinite's creator intending to make it for the "DudeBro" crowd?

A misinterpretation made to sound like it had anything to do with gender.

Basically people asked why Bioshock Infinite cover art had a clichéd grizzled male protagonist staring off into the distance, when the game is not just another shooter. Ken Levine said that the cover doesn't need to appeal to the people who are already into the game, as people who like the series are not using the cover as a means of deciding whether to get it.

The cover is meant to advertise to people who may not have heard of it. People who don't follow games like the people on here do, and will walk into a game store, pick up the boxes of games that catch their eye, and then flip them over to find out more info on the back.

That's why the cover is the way that it is. He wanted to appeal to the general action/shooter crowd who might otherwise never have heard of Bioshock. So copying the kind of cover you typically see on a military shooter such as Battlefield is probably a smart way to go about it.

People are then using that as a "Having a woman on the box will scare men off!" when the reason was purely to try and appeal to the kind of person who plays games like COD. It's not that it might scare them off, it's that it's not effective marketing.

Eve Charm:I'm lost to the point where good looking female character is nothing but objective but good looking male character is idealized.

DOA for example, all the characters have some story and they are just there to fight for a prize pretty much aside from the volleyball game What makes the females objective but the shirtless guys not. And no being a guy character doesn't put a better story, or get the woman story, it the same thing.

The Ideal woman isn't pretty? Ya I know we all have different tastes but how many of say 100 people are going to write down features like Fat, ugly or hairy. on the topic of boobs and butts tho, ya plastic surgery is pretty big in the us, same for male hairloss. How many male leads of games are balding ;p.

Playing MMO's, the big fat ugly character builds are hardly ever used and when they are used it's people making a joke character male or female, so can you see reasons on not spending a ton of money to make ugly character models.

Face it, Men and Women don't want ugly characters in games, the only that want them are for jokes.

I don't think the point is that the "ideal" woman for women can't be sexy. What is being said is that they don't have to look like

Female objectification in games is a double edged sword. Male gamers fail to realize that they are being objectified as well, by the developers and marketing strategists. We're basically viewed as cash dispensing drooling perverts, jerking off in our smelly little rooms, careful not to wake our parents, while our hidden homoerotic tendencies (we're all homophobes, aren't we?) make us faint at the sight of our virtual muscles and surreal heroism. Of course, that is true for a LOT of people, but those more intelligent and educated of us should see objectification for the insult it is.

Of course, this is more true for movies or TV series which feel that they can't keep our interest unless they show titties every 10 minutes or so. Or the gratuitous sex scenes that you find in any Hollywood movie these days. If I were to list a long list of my favorite movies, almost none of them features any sex scenes, unless integral to the plot and usually awkward, and most don't even have a single little kiss.

Funny then that we should point at games as the bad neighborhood of sexual objectification. Some of the most successful games don't even feature humans at all.

This whole video was Jim misrepresenting this issue because people are disagreeing with him.

Firstly he claims that male characters are idealised because men want to be them, while female characters and objectified because men want them. The problem is that he's only looking at this from a male perspective. Do women idealise the female characters because they want to look like that and objectify the male characters because they want men who look like that? If they do then male characters are being objectified as much as female characters.

Secondly Jim complains that only men have positive traits, such as being brave and noble. This shows his sexist bias because men and women consider different traits positive. Men prefer to achieve specific goals through their own effort to prove how amazing they are, such as climbing mountains or building a motorbike, so they value traits associated with bravery. By contrast women are more concerned with social interactions, such as talking with other mothers or helping schools with fund raising, so they value traits such as communication. It Jim every wants female characters that women can relate to then he needs to stop demanding that they have the same traits as men.

Thirdly there's nothing wrong with a game maker producing games that don't appeal to every demographic. As Jim said in an earlier video "there's no perfect pasta sauce, only perfect pasta sauces". So what's wrong with making games that will appeal to men?

Anyway, great vid. Nice to see a direct way differentiate the roles of women and men in games.

Although i don't think anyone should want to be Nathan Drake, he's a bigger douche than Kratos XD

Well that's sort of the problem. Jim did a fine job of differentiating between objectification and idealization, but without demonstrating that idealization doesn't cause many or all of the exact same problems as objectification, I don't know that we're doing ourselves a favor by pretending they don't have a lot in common. Some might argue that idealization is, in fact, a form of objectification, and therefore carries all the same baggage. I don't claim that to be true, but I'd like to see it discussed.

Please, stop being so critical of a medium because it is not serving to the demographic of your choice. Do you see men whining about the romantic novels only catering to female readers??

Ever wondered why the talk about sexism is only happening now, and not 10-15 years go?? Thats because women are only entering the industry now. Gaming was beneath them, or unavailable to them or, or they were not allowed to play games by patriarchal society, and only now they are being accepted as a hobby by females. They are new. And as much as you claim they are the 47% of the demographic, they are NOT.

Well, they are unless you start counting the occasional angry bird gamers or browser gamers. Come to think of it, my mom is a gamer too[since she plays spider solitaire]. I wonder if she'd want to play Assassins Creed 4 when it comes out.

......so basically what you're saying is that gaming was the He-Man Woman Haters Club that got all messed up with those girls brought their cooties along and made everything less fun by pointing out "Ya know, there's some misguided shit going on around here"? And they just need to go ahead and get on outta here so we can make video games the old school boys club like it was in the good ol days so those mean ol ladies will leave us alone once and for all?

Seems legit.

Yeahhhhh no, Maxim magazines = trashy romance novels if you wanna simplify it like that. Both suck and both are juvenile garbage that people need to grow the hell up and get over this kind of dumbassery ALTOGETHER. You're making the same kind of flawed argument that's always brought up; "Well ONE trashy side exists so that excuses OUR trashy side!" No, it makes you the same damn thing. Two wrongs don't make a right, as the old saying goes. And we certainly shouldn't be having a COMPETITION of who can out-trash the other.

Bullshit is bullshit is bullshit no matter what coat of paint you put on it in vain attempts to make it acceptable.

Firstly, this is the first time I've even heard of people using the defense of "males are equally objectified", I mean who the hell has said that and actually been taken seriously? Especially seriously enough for Jim to do a whole VIDEO about? Are topics that scarce Jim?I heard some people say "my steak pie wasn't tasty and therefore female objectification is fine", lets have you respond to that with a whole video, yeah?

Secondly, I lost all interest in the video at "half of all gamers are women" because I knew that the rest of the video would be based around that bullshit figure, as if it's an established fact. Games are made by men for men, correct, so if HALF of women were truly playing the same games then where the fuck is the market that caters for them? It would make no logical sense because market is driven by consumer demand. I cannot stress enough how much consumer demand is the driving force behind almost everything, what will sell WILL be created and sold. If the demand from females was that much (50%!) we would've seen 50% of all games at this point catering to them and at least 40-50% of game developers being female and making some goddamn games. This is simply not the case.

So half of gamers are females wanting to play games but they don't feel like getting into game development? What kind of logic is this? Explain that logic error, please, someone, anyone.

Show me a breakdown by genre/category that women represent half of all gamers in every aspect I will bend over and eat my own shit. Show me that roughly half of the gamers playing first person shooters, real time strategy, role playing, etc etc are female and I'll admit defeat.

No, don't show me that one ESRB report that completely skewed the fuck out of results by counting in the MILLIONS of iPhone and Facebook gamers because you're only fooling yourself if you really believe that a girl sitting down to play another hour of Farmville counts as a female gamer. Jim (and pretty much every feminist) are mostly talking about big-budget AAA games released on major platforms, not goddamn flash/java games or Tetris equivalents.

Jimothy Sterling:I'm trying my hardest to find all the videos I've done addressing the idea of male objectification before. I must have been on some killer drugs to forget all those.

=/=/=

This is actually the first time I've heard, or at least can recall, it put this way. That is,'men in video games are idealized versions of how we're suppose to be.' Yes, that makes obvious sense now that you've compared and contrasted the point, but perhaps it's because that idealization is so pervasive through our media-culture it just didn't make a blip on my RADAR.

But, that being said, from what I can remember every time I've seen a video along these lines, on this website, Extra Credits, and The Big Picture it always gets half-way through the thought, and settles on the same points you made about women while not touching male characters much. The compare and contrast between objectification & Idealization, has until now, escaped me. Come to think of it Yahtzee is probably the only person who consistently critiques those walking golems with sidewalk slabs as pecs.

Anyway, Thank God for you, or else I might have slipped into my twilight years, (30+) without having had that, 'ah hah,' moment about men in video games.

Now in video games this becomes a problem because people will claim that its just a guy with a female skin.

Damn. Just can't win!

I dunno, if you are watching the actual show they make her femininity quite clear. Its strange and wonderful and man, I fucking love Brienne. She is a pretty badass character. Also, in the series (Might have just been me noticing and it doesn't count as a spoiler) there was a clear scene where tits could have been shown. And they were not shown. Total and utter tangent here, but its nice that at least one of the female characters in ASOIAF has refused to be shown naked. Too much tits in that show.

Anyway, Brienne is a good character. And a realistic character. And I think it would be interesting to see her in an ASOIAF game that wasn't the mod for CK2 (Because that is the only ASOIAF game. There were no other games. Shut up.)

I mean to say, Brienne in a computer game would come across as female and utterly, UTTERLY badass.

Ben Los:Though some points in this video may be redundant, Jim is not beating a dead horse. The horse is not dead until we see some honest-to-God change in gaming culture.

And that's the whole POINT of having discussions/debates about societal issues in general. I mean, I'm sure more than a few people got sick of Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X bringing up racial inequalities to people that "were sick of hearing it" and "thought they were bringing up a dead horse."

Well until the problem gets fixed, you keep speaking up about it and against it. They didn't shut up until significant change happened. That's how it normally works.

If people want us to "shut up" about this, then not just game developers but society in GENERAL has to make some better strides toward change and progression and improvement so this kind of shit isn't a problem anymore. Trying to silence everyone and keep the status quo unflinching and unmoving because you're too settled in already to do anything about yourself...well that makes you a part of the problem too.

True. There are many "manly men" in Skyrim, but there are also men who don't at all fit that description(Nazeem=prick). Just as there are women in Skyrim who are pretty girly girls, and other women will cut your head off as soon as they look at you(not just the bandits). Some aren't even that pretty either. Though, none on either gender are fat.

That said, Skyrim is kind of the exception that proves the rule. There are many different types of male/female characters because that's what the game is famous for, and that is how they are made almost always.

Many other games can't say that.

I'm talking about this character as an individual nothing to do with Skyrim other than its where he comes from. He is just an example of a man who has been objectified into a killing machine, which isn't nessecarily an ideal that most men want to achieve.

And to set the record straight I love the Elder Scrolls but the characters are some of the worst in existence. They may be diverse but they are all boring forgettable cardboard cut outs.

:) HA ha. A fair enough statement(I too love the games). I just meant that the problem isn't so much with those types of characters existing, but that they dominate most games as the "only" characters. That is more the problem. Also, I wanted to mention that Nazeem is a prick.

Yuuki:Lost all interest with the video at "half of all gamers are women" because I knew that the rest of the video would be based around that figure, as if it's an established fact.

Show me a breakdown by genre/category that women represent half of all gamers in every aspect I will bend over and eat my own shit. Show me that roughly half of the gamers playing first person shooters, real time strategy, role playing, etc etc are female and I'll admit defeat.

No, don't show me that one ESRB report that completely skewed the fuck out of results by counting in the MILLIONS of iPhone and Facebook gamers, that is rubbish. Jim (and pretty much every feminist) are mostly talking about AAA games, not goddamn flash/java games or goddamn Tetris.

I don't understand this rant, even if 100% of the AAA population is male, so what? Doesn't seem to change, nor justify, how almost all women in AAA games are portrayed. The way women are portrayed doesn't seem like a good way to progress our hobby and for it to be taken more seriously as a storytelling medium. It just seems a great way to perpetuate the stereotype of 14-27 year old males who live with their parents, probably in a basement, and don't have much going for themselves other than how awesome their latest avatar is...

Heck, if for nothing else having more realistic, complex female protagonists could make for some great, novel, stories. But, I may be misinterpreting your statement. So, I'll go back to my biochem and await your response

Male characters made for specifically a female audience, usually a teen female audience, over in Japan. They're those effeminate pretty boys so much of the western male audience seems to hate. So, oddly enough, when male characters are made specially 'for women' the reaction is about what the female reaction is to female characters made to appeal to men.

Personally I always rather liked the prettier eastern male characters, if for no other reason that they were a breath of fresh air, an escape, from the constant barrage of overly muscled, overly masculine and utterly nonsensical male characters of western games.

I think the point is that often male gamers (comic fans etc) will often complain that women should see these depictions as positive, power fantasies etc, and claim their making a fuss about nothing, yet see no irony or correlation when they react in an extremely hostile (and even homophobic) way when they encounter such 'pretty boys'. IE, hot women in the buff should be accepted by all, bishonens in speedos are a hell spawned abominations that should die. Thats even before we get into lesbian/yuri vs gay/yaoi romance or porn.

CalUKGR:The problem is, Jim, that some men in some games are objectified - certainly on a purely visual level. I'd cite Dante, from the most recent DMC game. Both he and his gorgeous-looking twin brother are dreamily good-looking young men, designed by someone with a VERY keen appreciation of male beauty. Personally (and speaking as a gay man) I can't get enough of a look at him (opening cut-scene FTW!).

It is true enough to say that in most games most male characters are indeed idealised; but in a few, like DMC, they are clearly objectified as well - and as us Brits would say: Gwooarh! Eh?

Agree with this, but how many times does 'the sexy woman' (say, Trish) get the game action, conflict and backstory devoted to her , and at the same time, how does that visual sexiness transfer to the action of the game?

Legit question I attempt to ask here, since the disconnect I see in this arguement isn't between men and women per say, but between the two aspects that make video games what they are; visuals and gameplay. The objectification/idealization happens to both, but it doesn't seem to translate well into gameplay (or at all).

And I'll disclaim here; while I haven't played any DMC games, I know Trish is playable in DMC 2, and she's significant throughout the series (it's just how, and bu how, I mean you should be playing as her more if she's truly important, as far as a game goes)