Almighty God

This is specifically addressed to the Atheists those who say that God does not exist. As a Christian Believer I say you are wrong.

Why do you exert so much time and energy trying to prove to true believers that there is no God?

Why do you waste your breath attacking the God you claim is non-existant.

Why do you even care if some Christian believer believes in the word of God in the Bible as their salvation.

These are the actions of a hypocrite.

If God does not exist, then why attack something that is non-existant. More importantly how do you attack something that doesn't exist, isn't there and isn't real? Where is the logic in this?

The fact that you would attempt to do any of this tells me that you doubt your own convictions, but because you have attacked out of fear or doubt only serves to establish the existance of the very thing "GOD" that you try to deny, and avoid.

If it were me I'd be attacking something that I could disprove rather than something I could neither prove nor disprove. Hypocracy at its finest if you ask me. Fear of the unknown can be powerful.

Atheists are not known to go door to door and spew their superstitions and beliefs on others. That's a trait usually observed in believers, under the pretense of "love" and "sharing". We observe this heavily in the religion forums as well. Myself and others were listed by more than one believer as "demonic" and destined to "burn in hell" in such a thread. Those hubbers were banned and are no longer around, I believe, but the example fully illustrates the kind of contempt that spreads so easily when ideas are thrown at people and they are not welcomed.

I don't care what others believe. I only care if they are descent people who have the presence of mind enough to offer some respect and acceptance for others without all the conditions that so many believers throw on to people.

I have a family full of believers. I grew up a believer. And I've also had a gut full of it. So now I live and let live. Perhaps you and others might do the same?

Atheists still take joy an trying to attack that which they claim is not real. I would find it difficult to attack something I considered a myth, but atheists will go out of their way to do so.

If you live and let live, AND you claim to be an Atheist, then why are you giving any attention to what I have written?

Believe me I will never make the kind of statements like the others, but I really do not understand why professed Atheists desire to attack My God, when you do not even believe He exists, and I especially question why some of the other Atheists, on Hub choose to try and belittle me because of my beliefs in God and the Bible. There are 4 or 5 that seem to sit in wait for me to come on the forums just so they can try to attack me and make me seem foolish. People like Mark Knowles and beelzedad make me really upset with their attacking comments.

I am an Atheist and I am giving attention to what you have written because I'm under the assumption that Atheists are your target audience due to the fact that you are singling them out. I feel that I can believe that there is no God just as much as you believe there is one. I have never once tried to put that belief on someone else. I have been married for 3 years and my husband just discovered a few months ago that I am an Atheist. The reason for that is because it is irrelevant to the way I live my life. My only request of you sir is please don't group all Atheists into one group of people that their only purpose in life is try to convince Christians that there is no God. I have no interest in convincing anyone of anything. I am only "wasting my breath" on this topic because I feel very sorry for you that you genuinely believe that all Atheists are the same.

I fully agree that you have the right to believe as you choose and i would support your choice too. My reason for my position is the fact that there are several Atheists who sit camped out on the religion forum who love nothing better than to belittle and attack Christians for their belief, the tone of their comments is quite annoying as they look down their noses at the believer and seek only to make fun of them.

That is completely understandable. But wouldn't you agree that there are Christians and people of religion that do the same to the Atheist and Agnostic forums or in the world in general? There are people who do not believe and that do believe that are hypocrites. Hypocricy knows no affiliations. It is unfortunate that there are some Atheists whose only goal is to attack and belittle others that do not share the same belief as them. Just as much as it is sad that there are people of faith and religion that judge the life of others because it does not meet their own expectations of how they should behave. Life is full of judgement. You can say that you do not judge others and that you are completely open minded to everyone and everything but you will always have those lapses. And even when you do, it doesn't make you a bad person. I respect your opinion, just remember that we are not all the same just as I remember that you are not all the same.

You are right and I agree with you. It only takes one bad apple to spoil things for many. All I would like to be able to do is to have a serious religious conversation with other believers or those earnestly looking to learn more about God and religion, without some big mouth having to stick in his two cents worth of ridicule and belittling.

Beelzedad I do not come to these forums to have my personal beliefs of worship attacked, or torn down. Nor do I come here to be ridiculed and made fun of. My reason my specific reason is to try and help others to find God through faith and help them to better understand Him and how his teachings through the bible might benefit them in their lives.Interjecting obtuse comments, trying to be disruptive benefit nothing except to maybe destroy.

Dave, it is the objective of any open forum on the internet to hold discussions, whether there is agreement in those discussions or not. If you are being personally insulted, you have the option of reporting to the admins, just like everyone else here.

Unfortunately Dave, these forums were not placed here for your personal benefit of teaching others. However, there are other forums more specific to your needs. I'm not asking you to leave and go there, however it is an alternative that would indeed suit your needs.

If you wish to teach others here, write and publish hubs, that is your avenue here for such things. These forums are open to all for discussion, hence you must be prepared for others to disagree with you, just like everyone else here.

That's not true, Dave. No one is trying to destroy anything here, only discuss things, which is for what these forums represent and exist.

(My reason my specific reason is to try and help others to find God through faith and help them to better understand Him and how his teachings through the bible might benefit them in their lives)

Dave,

Do you understand what you are saying here? "...help others find God"

How can you find an idea? You make a reification claim with this statement, that God is an object, a real thing that you can find, like you can find your lost checkbook. The reality of your statement is not to help others find God, but you want to convince others to believe what you believe. Your actions are not for them, but for yourself. It's about control, Dave. You are simply trying to control the beliefs of others. Your rationalization is that this action of yours helps them - do you see that?

With this one simple statement, "...my specific reason is to try and help others to find God...", you have declared yourself to be nothing more than the internet's version of a door-to-door salesman, and from having been in sales a good part of my life, I can tell you that you are not always welcomed when you knock.

Just like the vacuum cleaner salesman is trying to convince the housewife and husband that his model is superior and will cure their ills, so, too, does the internet evangelist try to convince his audience that his beliefs are superior and will cure their ills.

People are just people, Dave. When you knock on the door, some people are polite, let you in, listen, but have no intention of ever buying. Some people politely turn you away at the door. Some slam the door in your face. And then there are the ones who are fed up with salesman - best watch out for them - they just might set the dog loose on you.

You have to accept a lot of rejection before you find the next sale, and that rejection isn't always pleasant. If you are going to peddle your beliefs, better get thicker skin.

The thing is I am not trying to share my beliefs with Non-believing Atheists, not unlike you I am trying to share my beliefs who want to know and understand about God and believing. Your comments when you jump in were not invited nor requested nor required but like all unwanted party crashers and bullies you give them all the same.

Explanations from myself and others (including Hubpages Elite) to you that this forum is not for that purpose does't seem to be phasing you at all, Dave. In other words, despite these explanations, you still feel compelled to ignore them. If that is the case, you are then going against forum rules. Therefore, if you continue to use these forums to evangelize, you most likely can get banne if folks report you.

(not unlike you I am trying to share my beliefs who want to know and understand about God and believing.)

Sincere believers seem to have trouble grasping the disctinction between peddling their b-e-l-i-e-f-s and argumentation against a type of thinking.

My goal is to shine a light on irrational thought and get our culture to demand as much justification for belief in the irrational as it does for the rational. We set up the FDA to gather evidence that the new drugs on the market will not harm us too badly - yet any Tom, Dick, or Harry can spew irrational ideas about knowing god's will without being called out by a single organization.

One would think that as much as we care about testing new drugs, we should care at least as much about testing irrational beliefs before they are taught to the next kid named David Koresh or Osama bin Laden.

Dave, if what you say in this comment is true, then you yourself are being a hypocrite. You specifically addressed the original post to atheists, unless I'm reading something wrong here. Think before you respond to the comments that you yourself have solicited. If you don't want to hear what others have to say about what you've posted, maybe you ought not post - or perhaps you should be a bit more clear about what you actually hope to accomplish from the jump.

I'm not an atheist, agnostic, deist or a believer in supernatural divinities.

You defined "god" when you said "...my god...."

There are as many differing definitions of this "god" thing as there are those who believe in "it."

This "god" thing you mention is but a "concept."

The bible, torah, nt, or the qur'an does not offer a "definition" of it in any form but "opinion."

Your belief in "YOUR" imagined concept of this "god" thing, is just that i.e. a belief in an imagined concept.

What concerns me as a history buff, is the disgustingly abhorent amount of pain, suffering, death and destruction related to the concept of god/s over the past several thousand years...and it continues today.

I am also concerned that those contemporary human beings who have been innundated in religious myth, superstition and fear, give lip service to peace, and love but will willingly go to war and kill other human beings praying for their god's blessing and victory.

You will now say, that is not me!

History is rife with your ilk. Those who "mouth" love and peace but pick up the sword and race off to war willing to kill, maim and torture in the name of their "imagined' god thing.

I don't hate you!

I hate the level of self imposed ignorance you represent and your "willing" dedication to it.

Mark the first the last and the only time. I refuse to banter with any of the people who I feel are attacking me or my beliefs. I refuse to let your insulting comments upset me anymore. Say and think what you will.

Yes, and metaphysics is like the Dana character in "Ghostbusters". There is no cage, there is only Zule.

And then you have the high priests of Quantum Physics, who say, Well, she's almost right but the name isn't Zule, it's Spacetime. Gotta run. Gotta go feed my dead cat, Schrodinger, if she's still alive, that is.

One teensy, tiny clarification. All words are concepts. Some of those resolve to real physical objects: tree, rock, apple. Others, like "god" are abstract concepts, i.e., they cannot resolve to real physical objects unless we point to the hula Jesus on the dashboard of my car and declare that hula object to be "god". Of course, it would then be difficult to explain how that hula object, sitting on the dashboard of my car, with a made in Taiwan, 2006 stamp on its bottom, was around to be "the word" which "in the beginning was the word" and "the word was with god" and "the word was god".

In fact the only "words" I see on it are "Made in Taiwan, 2006", and I doubt the author of the book of John knew anything about Free Trade back in 95 C.E.

AKA I reverently drop to one knee in the presence of thee, take thy outstretched hand and bend to kiss, publicly and with a deserved respect...thy ring!...and the forum crowd accepts my good natured submission with a quietly whispered....Yesss!!I am truly blessed with sanction and approbation!

First, I'm not necessarily an atheist, nor am I believer. I don't care if there is a God. It's irrelevant to me. I find no inherent fact to support either position. But if you are going to ask the question, do you not expect an answer? And I have answered according to my perspective and experience.

Neither atheist nor believer is free from guilt about attack. Attacking has far more to do with personality than belief. And apparently the same types of personalities exist among believers as do non believers. So for you to make generalizations and blanket statements about atheists or anyone else for that matter, says more about your thought process than it does your intent to find an honest answer.

That's nice, but you have yet to demonstrate why we are wrong. Stating we are wrong does not make it so.

Non-believers spend far more time trying to prove their gods do exist. It's called evangelism, Dave.

You will also attack other religions and other gods, you have done so here, Dave, and you know it.

So, what's the difference, then?

We don't really care, Dave. It's when those beliefs are taken into the real world as some sort of absolute truth that the rest of us must agree and follow, or you will threaten us with eternal damnation.

Where is the logic in believing in invisible friends, Dave?

Yes, I'm sure you'll try to rationalize this as something completely different than what it really is.

Considering you have yet to prove anything regarding your gods, you obviously have your work cut out for you. And, if you truly believe your god exists, it should be a simple matter for you to prove it.

Whether you are right or wrong whether I am right or wrong is immaterial. We disagree. I have never asked you to prove your side, but you insist on proof from me. I am not here to deal with you. I am here to try and help those who have an interest.

Why do the beliefs of us who believe, believe in God trouble you so, since you believe not. Why waste your breath on us believers.

Belief is through faith and faith is through belief. I cannot believe in something I have no faith in as truth. You try to attack my faith and if I try to offer truth from the bible you then attack it.

You keep on referring to my "gods" I have only one God his name is Yaweh, aka. I AM, aka. The Lord, aka. Jehovah. My God has a son and his name is Jesus Christ.

If you truly desire proof of my God's existance every plant animal mineral, every thought invention everything in this world is from him even you.

If you noticed frogdropping explained to you in detail what I was also stating, this forum was never placed here for that purpose.

Many religions like Christianity are intolerant to others, which they base on their belief system. I'm sure you can figure out the rest.

The so-called truth in the bible is so much intolerance towards those who do not share your faith, this intolerance is clearly out in the public and is affecting people who don't wish to have anything to do with it but are forced to deal with it.

Yes, that is your god as opposed to the god of many other believers.

Yet, when I begin to observe those plants, animals, minerals and even myself, I find no such gods existence to be present, and only the evidence of the natural world and how it came to be all on its own, quite contrary to the particular creation story you embrace.

Please remember Dave, there are many creation stories, all very different from yours.

It all boils down to like minded people with like minded thoughts,beliefs and ideas trying to have a serious and intelligent discussion and the interjection of an outsider's attempt to influence and force themselves where they are neither invited nor requested.

Again Dave, whether you believe others are "neither invited nor requested" is irrelevant in a public forum. If you want to have those kind of conversations, there are other forums specifically tuned for that purpose. Hubpages forums are not for that purpose.

Would providing any reasoning to you at all really make any difference, Dave? Will you then attempt to convince me why I shouldn't be here?

Only wanting to see one side of an issue (your side) is what you are requesting Dave. You are telling everyone who believes differently than you that they are not welcome and they should keep their opinions to themselves, because it makes it difficult for you to promote what you believe, and it makes you angry when they disagree with you.

Offering the opposing opinion in an open forum is not gate crashing nor is it bullying.

If you don't want to hear both/all sides of an issue, then by all means find a place to hide from the people that don't agree with you and keep them locked out. Online in an open forum isn't that place.

(It all boils down to like minded people with like minded thoughts,beliefs and ideas trying to have a serious and intelligent discussion and the interjection of an outsider's attempt to influence and force themselves where they are neither invited nor requested.)

Dave,

If there were a god and a judgment day, can you imagine making this argument your defense?

god: and why did you not try to stop the Inquisition?Dave: They were just like-minded people, having a serious discussion...god: Go to hell, Dave. That's ridiculous.

Enough is enough! I will not reply to anything more you have to say. Say what you like so long as you do not address it to me personally. I believe in God. I believe in what is taught or discovered through the Bible you do not have to.

An individual's belief is not your problem Dave - no matter how much you think it to be. The problem is the conflict in opinion. And this is a public forum.

This forum thread is the equal opposite of your query. An atheist stating his opinion.

If believers (I presume this is true for most part) have an unshakeable faith in whatever they believe in - as per your train of thought - then there is no need for them to refute. So why do they? Simple - they don't agree with it.

That's why when you or another posts something about religion you'll get opposing opinions. It doesn't matter that they don't believe - what matters is they don't agree with you.

And no matter how many times you scratch your head and wonder 'why do they bother' - the fact is they're thinking the same about you.

(Belief is through faith and faith is through belief. I cannot believe in something I have no faith in as truth)

Dave,

You are right. (See, I can agree with you at times. :-) )

What you are describing is knowledge. Knowledge is mainly learned (passed on by authority) information that we accept as valid. Obviously, much of that knowledge is critical to life - electricity can kill, etc.

However, even knowledge can be subdivided into categories: that knowledge based on rational thought, and that knowledge based on irrational thought. Rational thought has the abiltiy to explain without being ambiguous or defying known natural laws or stating ontological contradictions.

Belief in a immaterial, all-powerful being is irrational thought. My attack is on irrational thought as valid knowledge. If we can eliminate this type of magical thinking, we can improve the status of life for mankind.

After all, no one has ever flown passenger jets into skyscrapers because "electricity can kill" told them about 72 "electrifying" virgins.

(We agree that my knowledge is based on the rational not the irrational.)

No, we do not agree. Belief in the irrational passed on authortitatively does not magically transform the irrational into rational simply because it was repeated a thousand times. Your belief fails the ontological contradiction test on many levels, as well as viloates natural laws. Natural law: horses cannot fly: Islam: Mohammed flew to heaven and back on a horse. Natural law: dead tissue cannot be reanimated: Christianity: Jesus was raised from the dead after three days.

The worth of knowledge is a value judgment. I have knowledge of Frankenstein, but I judge that reanimation of dead tissue is fiction - regardless of who tells the story.

Organs are not dead tissue Dave. The donor is kept alive long enough for the removal of organs - which are then specially packed to prevent them from ... for want of a better word .... dying.

The donor is classed clinically dead, brain dead - not actually dead.

Kinda horrible sounding but there you go. Once a person dies (in every sense) you can't use what may have been useful body parts. It's why doctors find it an uncomfortable question prior to asking for the donation.

If there was a way to use them after death then I think the need for organ donors would be less of an issue.

(Re-animation of dead tissue is fiction o really then what about transplants of tissue and organs)

I thought you said you weren't going to answer me anymore. I guess you decided that holding your breath until you turned blue wasn't as successful of debate strategy as you had hoped?

Regardless, there has never been a case in recorded medical history where tissue that has been well and truly dead for three days spontaneously reanimated into living tissue. Three-day-old tissue has already started the decomposition process - which means first that the decomposition would have to be reversed and only then could reanimation occur.

Reanimation makes for good fiction, though. But I like the one about the Count who could live forever by drinking blood even better.

AKA Winston: And what exactly do these 10 incidents in history have with trying to deceive and destroy the religious beliefs of others are you trying to declare yourself as satan and point out some power you have. Believers believe, because it is better than the alternative of nothingness and destruction and a meaningless death.

The motivation behind all the actions - real life actions that affected and continue to affect real lives - was due to irrational beliefs. Eliminate belief in the irrational, and you take away the cause of these types actions.

I am certain you cannot graps this - not due to any lack of intellect, but simply because belief acts as a shield from intellect, which is what rationalization is - but the underlying cause of the Inquisition and 9-11 was the same: irrational beliefs.

My reasons for wanting people to grow in knowledge, openminded belief/dis-belief, and acceptance of people that believe differently than they do, instead of the closed minded "this is the only choice you are allowed to have" type of belief:

Accepting nonsense as reality is not being "open minded." Nor is accepting the religious beliefs that started, 10. The Salem witch trials 9. David Koresh and Waco 8. The Reverand Jim Jones 9. Iran 8. Pakistan with nuclear weapons 7. India with nuclear weapons 6. Israel with nuclear weapons 5. Catholic's ban on contraceptives 4. Attacks on 9-11 3. The Crusades 2. The Inquisition 1. The Holocaust, as being somehow valid or worthy of respect - sensible. These beliefs should be actively discussed and examined, and education made available - eventually they will go away and people will stop saying, "You can't disprove it - therefor it is true."

Is somebody telling you that you are "not allowed" to believe what you believe?

That's nice. All available knowable knowledge humankind has already discovered and understands, says you would be wrong. I'm not saying "atheist" are correct either, because "Atheist" is a non-belief or denial of a god's existence. Which is foolish to begin with.

As for me, I don't qualify, considering I hold no belief whatsoever. It's not a non-belief. The "god" you make reference to doesn't exist and just because you say it does, doesn't make it so. Reality you live in says there is no god whatsoever.Because, the world needs more love and compassion, and those who are religious are selfish.I am not attacking a "god". I'm not attacking anything. I'm putting to shame this mystical selfish faith, people continue to enact upon. Because it's selfish to do so. I care about the people of the world and it's obvious from many Christians' actions, they don't give a damn.Precisely what religious folks don't see in themselves. No one is attacking something that is non-existent. Atheists attack the "blindness" behind religion's faith. Get it straight.Apparently you misunderstand the actions of others. In my case, no. I'm not denying the existence of a god, because, even though many think the possibility exists(within their own minds), what many fail to realize is that the probability rules any god out of existence. Fear of the unknown is why you when with religion in the first place. DUH! I would have figured you figured that much out for yourself, but I guess not.

Sorry, Christianity's religious philosophy and the doctrines of the bible are junk. The three major doctrines purposely puts a person against themselves, to live out their life never knowing the difference.

Dave, in perusing the religion forums, I've run across a couple of your posts that are well written, but seem to be a bit combative. I'm not sure if what you're trying to do is evangelize, but I can say this. As a believer, I sometimes get the feeling from your posts that you actually mean to argue your way into convincing everyone that you're right and they're not. I am a convicted Christian, and even I find myself occasionally taking offense at your tone. And trust me, I'm pretty hard to offend. Try maybe to be just a bit gentler? I believe that what you're trying to do is open a discussion that might lead others to a belief in God. That's admirable. If that's the case, though, try to actually discuss rather than argue. I often find it works wonders to help everyone understand each other's points just a bit better.

Curious to know what you think I'm trying to change. I was simply giving Dave an opinion about what might make his posts a little less inflammatory. It's conceivable however that flame wars, and not genuine discussion, is actually what this group prefers. If that is the case, far be it from me to interrupt. Please, talk amongst yourselves - but don't actually expect anyone to hear what you have to say because they'll be far more interested in formulating their response in an effort to shoot you down than in actually processing your opinion. And frankly, I'm not in the market to change anyone or anything. Sadly, I lack that particular power. I'm really just interested in discourse.

Some of us enjoy watching theists squirm on the stake of reason, but I wouldn't say we really want to harm you.

Actually, many of us understand your deep emotional need for religion. It comforts you, it provides answers (incorrect answers, but answers), it calms your fears, it may appeal to your sense of justice and fairness and it may even cause you to act in charitable and humane ways.

Nevertheless, it is all false and you can't expect us to stand aside and let you speak nonsense without challenge.

"Being defensive" is action based on perceived threat, when in reality the only threat is to your belief system - you incorrectly combine ego with belief and assume you and your beliefs are one.

They are not.

If you feel threatened by reason, the problem is most likely that your belief system is not valid and you are having to bolster it with irrationality and self-deception. There is no other reason for defensiveneness.

AKA Winston: No I defend myself against those who would seek to draw me or coerce me away from my peace and my God, people like you who seem to find pleasure trying to belittle me and berate me with you comments.

It is not necessarily that people take pleasure in "belittling" you, but that your range of thought appears extremely narrow. As Richard Dawkins said, "What if you're wrong?" What if there IS no God, which is certainly supported by the fact no one actually SEES these 50-foot-high pillars of smoke and fire that God is supposed to be like (the same God who's "the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow").

It is very easy to hypnotize people into believing they "felt" God. Hundreds of years ago, on this continent, they sent young boys on a "spirit walk" and what they saw, what their whole society led them to expect, was to see a "spirit animal" which would guide them in life. They saw Crow or Fox or Badger, but never Jesus Christ. It's the same with this constant auto-hypnosis you have been subjected to in your life. There comes a time when you might realize what is happening, and snap out of it. It's always possible.

Pierre Savoie: You mention some man named Richard Dawkins and quote him as asking: "What if I am wrong?" Well that is simple to answer. First I will have to die. If I am wrong and there is no God no Heaven or Hell, then my bones that are left, since I am an organ donor will end up in a grave and that's that, but what if I am right. I in spirit form as God is spirit, will end up in Heaven with my God, but what about you?

I could live through life with a belief that Porky Pig is REAL, and twelve feet high, and upon my death Porky will glide down from the sky on a knotted-rope made of the most succulent bacon the world has ever tasted, resurrect me bodily, and then carry me on my shoulders as he goes around town meeting everybody who has wronged me and destroy them with laser-beams that shoot out his eyes.I could use exactly the same reasoning as you! If I am right, then I will have a high old time and all my meals to the end of eternity will be bacon-flavoured. If I am wrong, I lose nothing. The point is that it is a fallacy to present these outcomes as equally likely, and there IS a negative cost to such a religious belief. I might be ridiculed, I might be so preoccupied with Porky theology that I would lose legitimate educational and career opportunities, or I might turn fanatical and torture and kill people with bacon in the service of my God. Do a total accounting and you'll see Pascal's Wager fails.

No, you just SAY that. I say that if you fail to worship Porky Pig the Creator of the Universe, as divinely revealed to ME, you will fail to live a savory after-life where every dish is flavored with bacon, even the desserts, forever and ever.

When you lower the bar to your thinking and accept every outlandish belief as a possibility, there is no reason to believe your belief more than mine. The spurious reasoning of the religious, and their refusal to prove anything, applies even to the beliefs of their bitterest religious rivals! So fall down and worship Porky Pig! Praise the Lard! Abandon the silly Jehovah story and his little whip-obsessed Son (John 2:15). If you don't, Porky will plant his Cloven Hoof of Retribution up your backside, and propel you to the Bad Place, for which we have no name, but which some call the Great Frying Pan, there to be fricaseed for all Eternity!

And though, I may not believe in God the way you do, but rest assured, I am with you, when it comes to 'fighting' satanic infidels.

Please allow me to say ... Your post has given me yet another Perspective of the British's axiomatic hypocrisy ... defining, the Applied of Hypocrisy ... while they were colonizing the technologically lesser advantaged NATIVES of Asia, Africa, Americas, Australia and New Zealand etc., with gun powder, deceit, and hypocrisy ... it goes:

Paarsurrey: It is one thing for you to make the bold statement that you do about Jesus not being God nor the Son of God, but with me you have to be able to substantiate such a statement prove it. The Holy Bible at the time of His baptism by John the Baptist in the river Jordan states that God Himself, declares Jesus to be His Son. God would not make such a declaration if it were not truth.

Often times religious threads ask a question - much like yours is now doing. You're asking (or opening up) for debate.

Every time you feel attacked - I will assume you find it offensive. What then is the difference between someones faith being refuted and a believer constantly stating (often at the end of posts) 'but God loves you anyway', 'god bless you' or similar?

To me there is none. Reminding an atheist that he's loved by something he doesn't believe in is about the same as saying 'whatever - up yours'. Passive - but still as offensive.

As for your latest comment, about being left alone etc etc - if you're looking for a closeted environment in which you can talk about religion, share your thoughts and feelings - why use Hubpages? It wasn't set up as a place for believers to come and save people - whether or not they want saving.

It is a writing site - period. It exists on the backs of those that make the effort to write and publish quality content. Without that - there would be no Hubpages - the hard work of the staff team notwithstanding. In it's early days it didn't even have a forum.

As for helping others to find faith - do you seriously believe individuals have these moments whereby they feel the need to adopt a faith - and so they join Hubpages?

Folks come here to write - they don't come here to be convinced of which religion is best and why they should believe it. Do a poll - and find out yourself.

Check out how Hubpages advertizes the site - it doesn't mention religion.

Frogdropping: I agree with what you say here. Believers simply are looking for a place to converse with like minded others. They do not need the interjections of non-believers who try and destroy. This is what both sides face, but the believer never asks for the non-believer to chime in. It is like a party crasher simply dropping in. The Forum area is dedicated to religion. If a religious follower wishes to converse and exchange opinions why should this bother you, especially since you have nothing to do with religion and claim you do not believe in God.

Thank you for posting that. I agree with you that these arguments just go round and round in circles, and I also see clear as day what you pointed out. The passive-intolerance that last-word these "non-arguments" with a "but god loves you anyway" are just as intolerant as the undisguised disagreements.

And I also agree that intolerance of another's opinion takes many forms and isn't exclusive to religion. Atheists and agnostics can be just as dogmatic. There's something unsafe about people who wish to control your beliefs, especially more so when they try to mask those attempts at getting inside your psyche.

It's like they keep knocking, "Lemme in!" and seeing our opinion is our personal property for us to decide if we want to change it or not, we reply, "No way."

So they try something else and knock on the proverbial door again, "Hey, um, this is uhhh, your best friend, Joe." Unfooled, we say, "Dude just give it up, you can't have control of my thoughts!" So what do they do? They start leaving stuff at the door wrapped with bows and such and in a way, even though it's called loving, it completely rejects our right to choose what we believe in as well as our existence as autonomous, free thinking individuals.

"Love" in that sense symbolizes forcing one's will upon another person who may or may not consent to it. The Golden Rule founds itself on this essential quality.

I believe the silver rule respects autonomy and our right to our opinion and the golden rule, even though at first glance appears benevolent, might not be so.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you..." involves doing something even if the person doesn't want it. What if you want to be left alone and not have people attack your opinions? Well, that would require you to not do something unto others as you would have them not do unto you. That latter version is called the Silver Rule, but honestly, if we're ranking the goodness (yes I know goodness is subjective, just go with the colloquialism ) of bronze, silver, gold like we rank record sales, can we motion to rename "The Silver Rule" into "The Platinum Rule"?

To all those who believe:I found a way out of this dilemma: I made my peace with Mark Knowles and Ernesthub who are both vociferously anti-christian. They would die saying what they are saying. And, I would die saying what i am saying.Just do not give attention to what they say. They are basically good people like you and I. Just don't let them trap you and you are fine.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"(Matthew 5.43-45 ESV)

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brotherâ€™s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?

You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brotherâ€™s eye"(Matthew 7.1-5 ESV)

I would agree they probably are good people. They have come to hone their own moral and ethical behavior on reason and logic. They understand fully the consequences of their bad behavior if that is the behavior they choose to exhibit.

Mark and Ernest also understand that by choosing bad behavior, it would be logical and reasonable to assume others will make the same choices and exhibit bad behavior towards them. And, since neither Mark or Ernest are interested in receiving bad behavior themselves, then by use of reason and logic, they would not exhibit bad behavior to others for want of receiving it themselves.

But, there is also something else Mark and Ernest understand, and that is they are abhorred and disgusted when they see or hear of others exhibiting bad behavior, and would never align themselves with any person, place or organization that does indeed exhibit such behavior.

Upon turning to scriptures, they can find ample examples of bad behavior, exhibited by both men and gods. And, while they also would agree there are most certainly passages in scriptures that exhibit the same moral and ethical values they have themselves , they also look at the dark and sordid side of those scriptures and understand it is not something of which they would themselves be aligned.

Hence, their choices are in no way evidence for the existence of a god, and if scriptures has any bearing, it is indeed evidence that their moral and ethical behavior is a choice they made without the existence of gods.

I don't have that much patience. I simply pick up the club of reason and play whack-a-mole, not really expecting to pound in any sense but hoping at least to win enough tokens to keep people busy riding rides instead of killing each other.

While I understand the actions and results of actually experiencing eternal damnation are probably nothing more than myth, it would follow that whether a believer or non-believer makes the threat, it will result in nothing. Yeah, I get that.

The question is surrounding the fact of whether or not it is acceptable to make the threat to others, or is it rude?

I would agree that the cage analogy is not fitting. I would imagine physics to be more like a clear plastic bubble that separates reality from the spooks and spookies floating in space, materializing then vanishing, hovering around the edge of the bubble, trying to get in. The non-physics side of the bubble is like the video that was used to begin The Twilight Zone t.v. show, with ghosts and Einstein's equation and a ticking clock running backwards.

In that sense, we can just point to the imaginary side of the bubble as the area where gods live, and state that no gods live inside the bubble.

But that is the very illusion that confounds the Christian - he thinks he is insulated in his own bubble and is unaware that for his beliefs to be real, he has to be outside the reality bubble along with the other irrational beliefs like the reality of a flying horse (Islam), reincarnation (Hindu) and a Lost tribe of Israel that lived in the U.S. (Latter Day Saint).

Along with these irrational beliefs, we also find square circles, ghosts, intersecting parallel lines, demons, and 4-sided triangles.

So, you see, there is no safety in one delusional bubble over another - because the bubbles themselves aren't real.

AKA Winston, I presume you're addressing me- if that be case I can't think of anything I'd like more then saying the heck out of whatever reality you say you're residenting in if you stay the heck out of mine.

But people who believe in imaginary thing can still cause great damage to society. It is silly to sit there claiming we should do nothing because the thing imagined by a psychopath is not real so there is no real issue or problem. Religious people MADE it an issue by spreading so much damage to the Earth.

They claim there is "spirit" (an unreal thing) and people should take care of the things of this "spirit", but they deny sex (which is within 3 feet of each of us) and it is this situation that has caused the churches in Africa to ban the use of condoms which has made people more susceptible to AIDS, since they listen to what is 3 feet away from them more than these invisible "spirits" they are supposed to pay attention to!

Atheists are the Damage Control of society. When society is being rocked by torpedoes or bomb-hits from spiritual wars, Atheists repair the damage.

Religion can cause damage at any time, from any quarter. Witness the mainstream church, part of the Assemblies of God, that got an award from President Jimmy Carter's wife for their charity-work. All of a sudden their leader decided it was necessary to separate themselves from the "sinful" society, so they pack up to the jungles of Guyana. Through a turn of events, 900 believers ended up in the death-throes of the poison cyanide Kool-Aid. Yes, I really am talking about Jim Jones and his "People's Temple". They were a TYPICAL Christian group, not a fringe one. You just never know who or what is going to go bad, even mainstream churches, influential and central to their communities. We are just now scratching the surface of the molestations by Catholic priests, for example.

The stinking Christian dead bodies in the jungles of Guyana were REAL. They were a REAL problem. Are you saying that Atheists should do nothing since the beliefs in God that motivated this slaughter were not real? ALL Christian denominations have this potential to become like that. If they DON'T, it's because the individuals don't have a sufficient commitment to the Christian faith, or are too addicted to the high American living of SUVs and daily barbecues to make any sacrifices! But Atheists have a RIGHT to criticize this. If your future eternal happiness is fundamentally based on the destruction of everybody else, we have a problem with that! If you work to make women miserable for 18 years by banning abortions, we have a problem with that! We will criticize your beliefs long and loud, and we are free to, in order to prevent the recurrences of these STINKING DEAD BODIES!

How do you know they are not typical of Jim Jones? Any Christian group worth its salt, that doesn't just open a building on Sunday, mutter stuff and then close a building that same day, is going to want to do something radical. After all, GREAT THINGS are in the balance! We live at the most CRUCIAL END-TIMES where there is a cosmic battle between forces of Good and Evil for your SOUL! Nothing else counts, and for the Christian to ensure his eternal happiness he must WORK for the End-Times and the TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF EVERYONE ELSE! It's in the Bible that it will happen!But most American Christians are not that dedicated; it's all they can do to bring sufficient potato-salad for everyone to the church basement for the after-party. However, let a charismatic leader get in there, someone who reminds them of the SIGNIFICANCE of the words they are muttering. Everyone else is evil and influenced by Satan, who can doubt it? So it stands to reason the good Christian must make the extra effort and separate from them.

It is a mess, and the Atheist has to point the way to not only material progress but social progress, such as officially Atheist Europe, which makes its decisions in a secular way (NO prayers at the EC council meetings, NO mention of God in the EC constitution.)

Wow, that would be ridiculous, if it wasn't so scary that you might believe it. Bring on the end times? I don't know that anyone would agree that anywhere in the Bible it says man is supposed to light the fire to end the world.

If you really fear that, you are so far removed from reality that it would be pointless to attempt to bring you back. You obviously have no knowledge of the subject you have chosen to harp about.

Fantasy does not equate to fact.

If you are aware that what you are saying is untrue, then I will as that spreading hatred is probably not in the interest of the general good.

Do I need to quote Bible quotes at you? Do I need to go to each Christian to have them admit that their future eternal happiness in Heaven depends on the incineration of everyone else? These are Biblical facts which a Christian can not doubt.

No.you are wrong. I can state that, unequivicably, as a Christian. Don't bother with your 'facts' from scripture. Anyone can find anything they want and piece meal it together. Taken as a whole, this is not the intent, or the spirit, of the New Testament.

Good to know for the next a Christian pulls out scripture and pronounces it as truth.The NT is a scam on the people and had you actually researched it, instead of taking it on blind faith, then you would know. Oh, color me oh so surprised. What else is new from religious folk.

Cags, saying something a million times doesn't make it true. It makes it repetitive and tedious. I realize that may be the point of a lot of your posts. Perhaps you think you'll wear people down and make them go away. I don't know what your point for lies would be other than that.

This will be my last response to you on this matter. I noticed how many posts you have made in forums in the 8 months you have been here. 5,836 posts as I write this. The number of posts is also a link. Most of your posts is on the religion forums.

PostsToday: 134This Week: 554This Month: 1562

Those stats are yours. The first page of posts shows 25 posts of which 17 are in religion.

You can also notice on the right hand side of the religion forums the top ten posters at this time. You are number 3. This means only two people post more in religion than you do.

If you detest the religion forums as you say you do, then stop being a hypocrite about it.

Some people's personalities take great sport in antagonizing those they disagree with. It's also about their intellectual prowess as perceived by them. When this happens you have to make a choice on a personal basis: do I let my insecurities reign over me, and I respond childishly by attacking, or do I calmly walk away knowing that I am okay?

Why people antagonize others is multifaceted, and it only reveals more about them than anyone else. If you understand this, whatever is said about you, against you, shouldn't undo you. But in most cases, it does anyway.

If you don't like the inner turmoil, then why do you persist in engaging in it?

I agree. I have answered that question several times for inquiring theists.

I admit to finding amusement in watching some theists try to logically argue their way to illogical conclusions. In that sense, you could charge me with torment of a minor nature.

However, I also defend theists. I defend both their intelligence and their rights. As there are some few atheists who insist that theism indicates stupidity and even some who think religion should be banned, I think that my speaking out against those people is important.

My primary reason to speak against religion has nothing to do with theists, really. I speak to give emotional support and community to isolated atheists who may feel surrounded by a sea of irrational belief. It can help them, especially when they are young, to know that there are bright people who will speak out against that tide. This is my primary reason for "attacking" theistic beliefs.

I guess it's understood you fail yet again to realize things that are truth or facts. The fact you cannot negate your own irrational thought process isn't going to make anything I say untrue.

I'm not the fool you think I am. I'm not ignorant enough to spout off my beliefs as though they belong part of truth in the real world.

And, as for what repetitiveness my posts have on you, is solely for you to figure out. As for my posts with regards to other people, it would be YOUR assumption that my words are completely and utterly dismissed.

Please explain to me how standing up for beliefs is preaching? Is this the same argument that someone in the minority can't be accused of prejudice, because they are the minority? YOu may be in the minority as far as world wide beliefs, but you are prejudiced pcunix. Plain and simple. I believe in live and let live, but I will stand up and speak my mind when I see posts that are inflammatory, or bullying. Yours have always fallen into the bullying category and I appreciate that from you.

Pcunix. Atheists do not abound, unless you've got more than one mouse in your pocket. You preach, I fend off your gospel. Sorry it bothers you that I can laugh about it. I laugh at you, I laugh at me. You should try it some time. It might do you good.

I simply do not understand all the fear of theists on this site. Sue me.

Atheists don't fear theists, in general. Oh, yeah, we might fear the real nutcases who would harm other people because they think we are demons or whatever, but those people are very, very scarce.

Theists do fear atheists, though. That's made very evident here and in the real world. We understand why: part of you realizes that you are totally irrational on this subject and having us around to remind you makes you uncomfortable. You hate examining your beliefs closely, so you fear us.

Hi Raf:"god?"What's this god thing you just mentioned?Yes, I'm still asking 'cause no one has given me anything but an opinion yet.Do ya think think I'll ever get an answer that's not just an opinion?If ya think not, why not?Qwark

In the pre-scientific age, when issues were only under the tender ministrations of philosophers, they liked to set up conundrums and unresolved either-or situations.

But this is not an either-or situation. The consequences of a claim can be examined now, proof can be demanded in a scientific fashion. To be respected are only the views which explain the facts. A right explanation brings the possibility of explosive progress along that way. A wrong explanation will stagnate everything and nothing new gets done. So beware of wrong explanations imposed by political leaders and witch-doctors that stagnate everything!

Look at how radically the God-claim changes! Hypotheses and theories of worth usually converge to common agreement, but in the beginning God was "up there, in the sky". The Sumerians said bow down to God, of which there are many, because they can fly around and you can't.

Oops! That didn't last forever once we flew in the skies ourselves. Not much publicized in America was when Yuri Gagarin, the first man who got into space, radioed back, "Hmm, no God here!" and Ground Control laughed. Then God was claimed to be further out into space, but we have the Hubble telescope now and can see everything.

THEN they claim God is in some mysterious, "spiritual" realm. But scientists hold the monopoly on detecting invisible things (X-rays, planets past Saturn) and making them known to all. Religion has brought us NO NEW INVISIBLE KNOWLEDGE, they just mouth the stories of thousands of years ago with only tiny changes. They don't show God, they don't show God-stuff, they have no breakthroughs in applied Creation Technology, and yet I would dearly love to have a Create-o-wave oven that makes me my bread and fishes for free...

As for claims "only religion" can answer WHY we are here, maybe we need the maturity to realize there IS no reason. Beware of people trying to sell you that you have a purpose; they are probably witch-doctors manipulating you for THEIR purposes.

What can be done with them. They've never created a universe, The ability to created already exist inside people so they don't have the compacity to create life. Heck they we can't even health ourselves if the body decides to reject the processes we're using. BUT for all we can't do we STAND IN JUDGEMENT of an non-existence God for some people and we pound our chest as if we're something. We are something and here are a few of what some of us are.

"This is specifically addressed to the Atheists those who say that God does not exist. As a Christian Believer I say you are wrong."

I am not an atheist, but I am a secularist/ agnostic who does not believe in God, and does not not believe in God, so I'll take a stab at your questions.

"Why do you exert so much time and energy trying to prove to true believers that there is no God?"

Ultimately, it is because beliefs have consequences.

"Why do you waste your breath attacking the God you claim is non-existant."

Nobody attacks God. How can one attack something that isn't there? One attacks the IDEA of God.

"Why do you even care if some Christian believer believes in the word of God in the Bible as their salvation."

I don't care, per se. But it becomes my business when they seek to convert others, and/or when their private beliefs have public consequences. In addition, I care about human knowledge and intelligence, which is threatened not by belief in God, but by much of religious and supernatural thinking.

"These are the actions of a hypocrite."

How so? A hypocrite is someone who says one thing, but does the opposite. I say I am critical of religion, and I am. No hypocrisy here.

"If God does not exist, then why attack something that is non-existant. More importantly how do you attack something that doesn't exist, isn't there and isn't real? Where is the logic in this?"

LOL, looks like you have answered your own question. Again, no one attacks God, one attacks the IDEA of God, or the BELIEF in God along with its consequences.

"The fact that you would attempt to do any of this tells me that you doubt your own convictions, but because you have attacked out of fear or doubt only serves to establish the existance of the very thing "GOD" that you try to deny, and avoid."

Total non-sequitur. If one spends one's life attacking the existence of the flying purple people-eater, does that therefore mean the latter exists?

"If it were me I'd be attacking something that I could disprove rather than something I could neither prove nor disprove. Hypocracy at its finest if you ask me. Fear of the unknown can be powerful."

Again, hypocrisy is nowhere to be found here. God cannot be disproven, but it can be shown that it is highly illogical and irrational to believe in God.

Aren't the past 9 pages of religious inanity, a pretty good example of why contemporary man is headed for disaster?Expand the differences expressed here to 6.7 billion people and ya realize that "never-the-twain-shall-meet."Qwark

I could live through life with a belief that Porky Pig is REAL, and twelve feet high, and upon my death Porky will glide down from the sky on a knotted-rope made of the most succulent bacon the world has ever tasted, resurrect me bodily, and then carry me on my shoulders as he goes around town meeting everybody who has wronged me and destroy them with laser-beams that shoot out his eyes.I could use exactly the same reasoning as you! If I am right, then I will have a high old time and all my meals to the end of eternity will be bacon-flavoured. If I am wrong, I lose nothing. The point is that it is a fallacy to present these outcomes as equally likely, and there IS a negative cost to such a religious belief. I might be ridiculed, I might be so preoccupied with Porky theology that I would lose legitimate educational and career opportunities, or I might turn fanatical and torture and kill people with bacon in the service of my God. Do a total accounting and you'll see Pascal's Wager fails.

(If the Atheists cannot prove non-existence of the Creator-God that is enough proof that He exists.)

It can be proved - you simply won't accept that proof.

Inductive reasoning is based on probability. What good is proof if you won't accept a 99% probability that you are wrong?

Do you really think proof is the key criteria? If so, I guess you think the L.A. police poured about 5 gallons of O.J.'s blood all over the crime scene because everyone knows there was no 100%, ironclad proof otherwise.

To be honest, I spend less than 1% of my time trying to disprove the existence of any god, Christian or not.

But something that confuses me about Christians like you is you seem to think that secretly I really do believe, or that I'm purposefully choosing to not believe. Is it a choice for you to believe or not? I'm sure you'd say that it's more of a gut feeling, right? That you just feel that your god is real and that he's there?

It's the same for me. I was brought up Christian. I wanted to be Christian. I find the thought of an afterlife and a deity who loves me a lovely, comforting idea. But I don't believe it. When I try to believe it I just feel like I'm play-acting. Surely you remember when you were little and you sort of knew that Santa and the Tooth Fairy weren't real? I feel like that about God. It isn't something I can help, it's as much as a gut feeling for me as your faith is for you.

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