As I have expressed elsewhere I have a bit of an affinity for the Latin Mass as do many Orthodox in the Western Rite. I particularly like this picture from a Latin Mass in Hertford http://www.latin-mass-society.org/images/hertford5.jpeg There are many websites on the web that have pictures such as www.latin-mass-society.org and http://www.unavoce.org/I have relatives in SSPX but the the society, where they live, is still financially weak and for this reason they as yet have no church. This situation, as I understand it, is similar to various RC churches across the country.The member of the board Augustine spent some time in SSPX and would probably be able to weigh in on the Old Latin Mass better than me, or any others on the board as far as I know.

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I am referring to the mass at the funeral of the late JPII..

It was in Latin but it was not the Old Latin or Tridentine Mass. I just got in a long discussion yesterday about why the priest and the altar table face away from the laity during the Sacrifice and I am amazed whenever I ponder how many RCs stayed with the New Mass after it was introduced. Imagine going to Divine Liturgy and having the deacon facing you from behind the altar table holding up the Holy Gifts singing, "We offer unto Thee Thine own of Thine own! On behalf of all and for all!" Pretty spooky right? Saying we offer this up to ourselves would be the equivalent in my mind. But of course modern RCs will do anything to justify what is currently going on and defend this sorry new Mass not even ever having seen pictures of the Old Mass let alone seeing it in person.

GLORY to God in the highest. And on earth peace to men of good will. We praise You. We bless You. We adore You. We glorify You. We give You thanks for Your great glory. O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty. 0 Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son. O Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father: You Who take away the sin of the world, have mercy on us. You Who take away the sin of the world, receive our prayer. You Who sit at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us. For You alone are holy. You alone are the Lord. You alone, O Jesus Christ, are most high. Together with the Holy Spirit + in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

It was in Latin but it was not the Old Latin or Tridentine Mass. I just got in a long discussion yesterday about why the priest and the altar table face away from the laity during the Sacrifice and I am amazed whenever I ponder how many RCs stayed with the New Mass after it was introduced. Imagine going to Divine Liturgy and having the deacon facing you from behind the altar table holding up the Holy Gifts singing, "We offer unto Thee Thine own of Thine own! On behalf of all and for all!" Pretty spooky right? Saying we offer this up to ourselves would be the equivalent in my mind. But of course modern RCs will do anything to justify what is currently going on and defend this sorry new Mass not even ever having seen pictures of the Old Mass let alone seeing it in person.

I agree in you regarding a preference for the Mass before the Novus Ordo, although my preference would perhaps be for the Sarum, York, Hereford or Bangor variants, rather than the Tridentine, as I find them much more beautiful. I agree as well about the direction of the priest at Mass. A church gathered in a circle around the altar is very insular, closed in on itself from the rest of the Church and the world. It places the emphasis on that community rather than that community's place within the whole Church, and creates a sense of God being the possession of that small gathered community. It completely clouds the escahatological nature of the Eucharistic Sacrifice, which pleads the fruits that it gains for us, which are yet to come. A nice Mass, with the priest facing toward the east is the best way to demonstrated these aspects that the other position omits. It shows priest and people together, facing the same way, in a common act of worship offered to God We face east - the direction of the rising Sun, towards the new city Jerusalem, the heavenly courts, having turned our back on Satan at our baptism, when we faced the setting sun in the west, and then turned around (which is what the word repent means).

As an aside, I often note the misconception that the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Mass has done away with Mass facing East, and that the Mass must be offered with the priest facing the people. This is incorrect. The only stipulation is that the altar must be freestaning so that the Mass may be offered facing the people, but this is only an option and, upon closer inspection of the rubrics, is not the preferred one. On the few occasions where the priest is to face the people during the Novus Ordo Mass, the rubrics direct him to turn to face them. This clearly indicates that he isn't facing them to start with, otherwise there would be no need to direct him to turn. So it seems that the Second Vatican Council envisaged the Mass to continue to be offered facing the east (the traditional form), but with the option, for those who wanted it, to offer it facing the people. The problem is that what was given as an alternative to the norm has been seen by many as the norm itself.

Former Cardinal Ratzinger speaks of this in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy, and I pray that, as Pope Benedict XVI, he will take the necessary action to keep some of the more liturgically wayward of his priests in toe.

I'm interested by your talk of Roman Catholics celebrating the mass facing east. Very many Roman Catholic churches I have come across are not even built so as to make this possible, facing north, south, west, whatever. In my wife's home town in Bucovina (Romania) the directions the churches face is even used as an example of their differences, and for making jokes. The Orthodox churches both face east (as they all do, certainly in Romania), the western rite Catholic church faces north (as most seem to in that area), and the 'Greek' Catholic church is actually built facing north-east, leading to many jokes from both western rite Catholics and Orthodox as to them not being able to decide what, exactly, they are.

I have probably seen more Roman Catholic churches that do not face east than that do and whenever I've visited such a church in the past (before I was Orthodox, before I get accused of praying with heretics!) I can certainly say that the priest faced the congregation and was not at all interested in which direction on the compass that might be.

James

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Many Churches, Orthodox and otherwise, who have had to accept churches already built or poorly situated Geographically and topographically are forced to use "Liturgical East" In otherwords where the Altar is placed is "Liturgical East. " This is necessary as many Rubrics say the " Northern" door, spitting out the door to the west, ect. The People face the Altar or Liturgical East when they pray. Orthodox Priests always face to real east or Liturgical east when they offer the services of the Church. Roman Catholic priests have the option of "facing east or Facing west (i.e. the people). Most Episcopalian Churches I have seen face east also whenever possible.

I'm interested by your talk of Roman Catholics celebrating the mass facing east. Very many Roman Catholic churches I have come across are not even built so as to make this possible, facing north, south, west, whatever. In my wife's home town in Bucovina (Romania) the directions the churches face is even used as an example of their differences, and for making jokes. The Orthodox churches both face east (as they all do, certainly in Romania), the western rite Catholic church faces north (as most seem to in that area), and the 'Greek' Catholic church is actually built facing north-east, leading to many jokes from both western rite Catholics and Orthodox as to them not being able to decide what, exactly, they are.

I have probably seen more Roman Catholic churches that do not face east than that do and whenever I've visited such a church in the past (before I was Orthodox, before I get accused of praying with heretics!) I can certainly say that the priest faced the congregation and was not at all interested in which direction on the compass that might be.

Dear James,

Thomas has taken the words right out of my mouth (of from my keyboard, if you prefer).

In many buildings that are not oriented, the direction of the altar serves as liturgical east. There was a tradition in England during part of the mediaeval period to build churches so that they directly faced the rising sun on their patronal festivals, which I think is rather nice.

You are correct in your observations of Roman Catholic churches, in that comparatively very few of them celebrate the Mass facing East, but, as I said earlier, this is because many of them have taken what was given to them as an optional altervative from the norm, and used it as the norm. Mass versus populum (facing the people) is not required by any Roman catholic document or pronouncement, and it is not encouraged by the rubrics of the Missal either - it is merely permitted. The Roman Missal assumes that the Mass will be celebrated facing East (as indicated by the rubrics), and there are some Roman Catholic churches that remain faithful to this.

(As an interesting aside, S. Peter's Basilica actually faces west, which has the interesting result that when a priest/bishop celebrates the Mass at the high altar, facing the people, he is, in fact, facing towards the East).

Thanks for the information. I hadn't realised that there was even such an idea as 'Liturgical East', so I'd just assumed you meant real east. I'm aware that in places like England and the US, Orthodox churches are often converted heterodox ones and may not face east (but this is clearly not the case in Romania). I wasn't trying to be a stickler for church architecture but rather was trying to understand how someone could face east in a north facing church. Now I know.

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Thanks for the information. I hadn't realised that there was even such an idea as 'Liturgical East', so I'd just assumed you meant real east. I'm aware that in places like England and the US, Orthodox churches are often converted heterodox ones and may not face east (but this is clearly not the case in Romania). I wasn't trying to be a stickler for church architecture but rather was trying to understand how someone could face east in a north facing church. Now I know.

You are, of course, very welcome.

Yes, it is a shame that not all of our churches are oriented. This is sometimes necessary though, as often the shape/size/condition land that a church was built on may have made it impossible to build it on an east/west axis, or even the slight variant that I mentioned, of having it face the rising sun on the patronal festival. In other cases, this is due to ignorance, especially in the case of more modern buildings, where the secular architect has little concept of the liturgical uses of the building. It is a shame, and really, true geographical east and liturgical east should be one and the same, but unfortunately, it is not always so.

So it seems that the Second Vatican Council envisaged the Mass to continue to be offered facing the east (the traditional form), but with the option, for those who wanted it, to offer it facing the people. The problem is that what was given as an alternative to the norm has been seen by many as the norm itself.

Michael you are right and I could not have said it better. But I think that because the Vatican itself always serves the Mass from behind the altar table that people are justified in thinking that this is the norm. Also I think that there are some Catholic churches that are not in SSPX that still have the altar table against the altar and not free standing.

James My father's Catholic church faced north as well as the church on the campus of the Catholic university I attend. In fact I think it is common for most German Catholic churches to be built facing north but I am not sure why. To my knowledge many of the Roman Catholics and Uniates in Romania were originally prosletized by Germans? Of course I am probably wrong on this but since Romania is best accessed by Catholics by going through Germany it makes sense.

I think that these pictures should show why facing east is important http://www.kosovo.com/main.html The window in the Sanctuary floods the church with the light of the rising Sun!

I found this to be an informative article about why the Traditional Mass is currently not used at St.Peter't in Rome http://www.unavoce.org/news/2003/TLM_in_Rome.htm I am curious what Pope Benedict XVI will do after his enthronement this Sunday.

Michael you are right and I could not have said it better. But I think that because the Vatican itself always serves the Mass from behind the altar table that people are justified in thinking that this is the norm. Also I think that there are some Catholic churches that are not in SSPX that still have the altar table against the altar and not free standing.

James My father's Catholic church faced north as well as the church on the campus of the Catholic university I attend. In fact I think it is common for most German Catholic churches to be built facing north but I am not sure why. To my knowledge many of the Roman Catholics and Uniates in Romania were originally prosletized by Germans? Of course I am probably wrong on this but since Romania is best accessed by Catholics by going through Germany it makes sense.

I think that these pictures should show why facing east is important http://www.kosovo.com/main.html The window in the Sanctuary floods the church with the light of the rising Sun!

Why is it in American Catholic churches, they sing protestant evangelical top-40 worship songs instead of traditional hymns? I believe that it would have been much better to have the Latin mass translated into the vernacular or the Gregorian mass instead of a protestantized, "charismatic" mass.

Why is it in American Catholic churches, they sing protestant evangelical top-40 worship songs instead of traditional hymns? I believe that it would have been much better to have the Latin mass translated into the vernacular or the Gregorian mass instead of a protestantized, "charismatic" mass.

Our church faces east and what a vision during Liturgy. The sun shinning through and illuminating all . In fact the sun is so bright sometimes it almost blinds the eyes of the believers and gives an almost supernatural ambiance in the church. I guess thats the impression it is suppose to convey.

Why is it in American Catholic churches, they sing protestant evangelical top-40 worship songs instead of traditional hymns? I believe that it would have been much better to have the Latin mass translated into the vernacular or the Gregorian mass instead of a protestantized, "charismatic" mass.

I don't know. But I would much rather hear, "Panis Anglelicus" than "I Can Only Imagine."

I'm not sure if the Uniates in Bucovina were proselytised by Germans or not, but the Roman Catholics there are almost all of German, Austrian or Polish stock and the region was once ruled by Austria, so you're probably right about the reason for the church facing north. Siret even has a, now vacant, Lutheran church, which is clearly German and also faces north. I have to say that it's the only example of a disused church in Romania I've ever come across.

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

After the my college semester is over, May 13, I will see if I can find a book on Catholic Church architecture. The college I attend was built by mostly German Catholic settlers. I cannot really imagine why North seems to have become the norm for German Catholic churches. I am almost positive the Basilica in Dyersville, built by German-Catholic settlers, faces north. Plus the old fashioned Catholic church in Iowa City, St.Mary's, faces north and so does the Catholic church in a town close to the one I live in and both of these churches were built by German-Catholic settlers; the town I live in does not have a Catholic church because it was settled by people from Schleswig-Holstein.

Why is it in American Catholic churches, they sing protestant evangelical top-40 worship songs instead of traditional hymns? I believe that it would have been much better to have the Latin mass translated into the vernacular or the Gregorian mass instead of a protestantized, "charismatic" mass.

Yes, I agree. I think the whole idea of making the service 'more accessible' or 'contemporary' actually destroys more than it contributes. Having come out of the 'evangelical' protestant churches i can honestly say that the repetitious songs (often from Hill Songs) with their terribly low theological content was one of the things that drove me on my liturgical search. Having been at sung masses, the difference was quite wonderful.

The most beautiful Catholic church that I've ever attended, St. Cecilia's Cathedral in Omaha, NE., faces east. (It should be no surprised that plans for it started in the late 19th century, and the building was complete by about 1950).

Now THAT'S what a Catholic church is supposed to look like, in my opinion!

Now, to answer the question of why the Catholic church chukked a 1,900-year-old musical tradition out the window - a tradition which included Mozart and Gregorian Chant - and replaced it with insipid 1960s-era folk music, I recommend you read "Why Catholics Can't Sing," written by Thomas Day, a Catholic music director.

HiJust to note that in older times most Churches in Byzantium faced Jerusalem, it was only later that this changed to facing East, that is why some Orthodox churches including HAGIA SOPHIA face south east in Europe towards Jerusalem instead of just east. I have noticed that at least one Orthodox Church here in Australia faces North. This caused a lot of confusion when I went there (south australia) expecting to find my bearing by following the direction of the Church. I guess they didn't have a compass when they were building that one.

I guess (never used the word "term" in that context before). It's half of an academic year.

Ahh, thank you for that.

I think that "semester" is peculiar to American usage. Our acedemic year is divided into three "terms", usually corresponding to, and taking their name from feasts/seasons of the liturgical/secular Calendar. So the term beginning in September is the "Michaelmass term", the one ending in Holy Week is the "Easter term", and the one that continues after Easter is the "Summer term".

This is so true because in my present situation I have been going to the RC mass and am suprised that the soft-cover books they use have almost all the hymns from Protestant sources from the US, England and Germany.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Not one gregorian or other chant. No one is able to sing them when the priest plays them on his MP3 player.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š What ever happened to their form of plain chant?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Maybe they could learn some from Anglicans?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Hopefully an EO chaplain is supposed to come to where I am next week.

Although Gregorian sounds very nice, and it is almost like Byzantine music, I must admit it does seem quite pretentious and feigned. All Catholic and Western style Liturgies sound quite over-done to me and not genuine and heartfelt. It's as if your sitting at an opera or watching a theatre. I don't mean to offend but the way the priests and bishops stand with their hands in front of their chests...it's so fake!

Fo me nothing beats the authentic mystical chant of the Holy Mountain. It's so genuine and down to earth, though it seems as if heaven comes down to visit us. You just can't explain it. The difference is like comparing apples to oranges.

When Byzantine Chant is propperly done , you know and feel that God is truly there.

Although Gregorian sounds very nice, and it is almost like Byzantine music, I must admit it does seem quite pretentious and feigned. All Catholic and Western style Liturgies sound quite over-done to me and not genuine and heartfelt. It's as if your sitting at an opera or watching a theatre. I don't mean to offend but the way the priests and bishops stand with their hands in front of their chests...it's so fake!

ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

You don't have a good understanding of the Western liturgy and style of worship, then. Go to a modern RC Church right now, and that seems like fake worship to me. The worship done in modern RC Churches isn't much better than Protestant worship. The form of worship used in the past is much more sacred.

All Catholic and Western style Liturgies sound quite over-done to me and not genuine and heartfelt. It's as if your sitting at an opera or watching a theatre.

Kosmas, I think the Masses you are talking about are the harmonized choral liturgies written by composers such as Palestrina, Mozart etc. These choral Masses tend to reflect the Baroque time period of the Catholic church when opulence, and over-done was the key. That is not Gregorian.

Gregorian chant is usually really slow, unharmonized, can be sung with an organ, and just like Byzantine music has a set of 8 modes/tones which change such as the Kyrie, Gloria (Doxa), etc.

The way priests hold their hands together like that is a symbol of steadfastness in prayer.

The way priests hold their hands together like that is a symbol of steadfastness in prayer.

...and is purely continental in origin. It can look reverent, as well as it can look false and forced. This position was never adopted in the rites of the British Isles, where the hands were merely gently held together, not rigidly, and without the fingers pointing out, but palm-to-palm with the fingers folded over. This is what was done in the Western rite on the British Isles, including the Sarum Rite. Drewmeister and Timos are right, Kosmas: it does sound as though your view of the western rite is somewhat skewed, if you'll pardon my saying so.

Well you may be right, i have not been to many Western Cathoic Masses, but I have been to a friend's wedding, an ordination of deacons and have sat in during a Latin Mass and also had th chance to follow a more modern English one with an Archbishop.

I have heard Gregorian Chant before, and (as I said before) I like it very much. I think this is probably because it was developed by monks. It is the old mindset which bothers me, the way the priests stand (as I said before) you have tro admit, come on this is so Un-Orthodox!!! Who cares about the difering beliefs? As long as they get rid of the hand thing

Another thing though, why do they use little bells in the liturgy, it's so artificial. But that's the least of their problems at the moment I suppose.

They have to get rid of the amps, drums and the electric guitars first.

In the Greek Orthodocx Church, there are certain parts of the Liturgy you are not supposed to chant, like the Lord's Prayer and the Creed (I know that this rule is not followed as closely as before) but anyway, my brother went to a Catholic wedding once and they had a modern set up going. He could not believe his ears when he heard both the Lord's prayer and the Creed being sung out and played with a guitar band.

Hey, some of us are rather fond of that "hand thing". One thing I don't like about Byzantine worship is that it seems that, if they're not doing something specific with their hands, there's nothing for the clergy to do them except just let them hang down, so you get fidgeting and such (especially with altar servers). With the Western-style folded hands, it prevents that and gives, IMO, a much more sober feel to the worship.

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Another thing though, why do they use little bells in the liturgy, it's so artificial.

What's artificial about it?

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In the Greek Orthodocx Church, there are certain parts of the Liturgy you are not supposed to chant, like the Lord's Prayer and the Creed (I know that this rule is not followed as closely as before)

They've both always been sung in the Russian church, as well as the Western church (except at low masses). It's the Greeks who are the odd ones out on this matter.

What's with those Eastern Rite Orthodox making the sign of the cross so big? It looks like they're just trying to put on a show. And why do they go to the two icons in front of the iconostosis to cross them selves and then go all the way to the ground; it looks so fake.

What's with those Eastern Rite Orthodox making the sign of the cross so big? It looks like they're just trying to put on a show. And why do they go to the two icons in front of the iconostosis to cross them selves and then go all the way to the ground; it looks so fake.

Exactly the reason I started attending the Latin (novus ordo) mass exactly 1 year ago.

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I remember reading in an Orthodox web site on how to make the sign of the Cross properly (humbly) and kneeling at the iconastasis.

Usually this is done by elderly women...and I am sure it is not done for SHOW!I myself would feel embarresed to do this because I would be thinking that people were looking at me and judging me.....BUT that is for God to judge and who cares what people think....as long as our Lord Jesus Christ knows truly what we are.

quote from Armando///What's with those Eastern Rite Orthodox making the sign of the cross so big? It looks like they're just trying to put on a show. And why do they go to the two icons in front of the iconostosis to cross them selves and then go all the way to the ground; it looks so fake.

Exactly the reason I started attending the Latin (novus ordo) mass exactly 1 year ago.

The sign of the Cross must be done properly(dsicretely and humbly)...not like you are playing a guiter or some type of instument.....of whom I have seen many people do on many occasions.The 'going all the way to the ground' is exactly what the Old Testament elders did and the New Testament church continue with this.....it is a sign of respect and not for others to judge.This again is not a SHOW for people to look and JUDGE what others do, this should remind everyone that YOU are not at church to see and judge others on what is wrong or right!

And to use an excuse as ''Exactly the reason I started attending the Latin (novus ordo) mass exactly 1 year ago.'' is NOT really an excuse but based on judgement.

If I was to go to church and start looking around for wrongs and rights then I too would be judged on my many wrong doings......Does that mean that I should leave and find myself a comfortable seat and look all prim and proper for the PEOPLE?Or maybe go somewhere else, where I would FIT IN and look the part...just because I dont look the part on how people want me to look?

I was just making a point to Kosmas that when we look at customs outside of our culture, we have to be willing to enter that cultures mindset and understanding before we can truly see what they see. Sort of, walk a thousand miles in their shoes thing. He thinks things in the Western Liturgies looks funny because he's looking at them from an Eastern contex. Likewise, if I go to an Eastern Liturgy and look at if from a Western standpoint, every thing that is done looks to lack any humility.

I think that "semester" is peculiar to American usage.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Our acedemic year is divided into three "terms", usually corresponding to, and taking their name from feasts/seasons of the liturgical/secular Calendar.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š So the term beginning in September is the "Michaelmass term", the one ending in Holy Week is the "Easter term", and the one that continues after Easter is the "Summer term".

Thanks for the clarification.

Sorry to come in late here. Was it the "Summer Term" that was once called "Hilary Term"? I remember that from some books from the 20's and 30's that I read.

Ebor

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I doubt it. The Feast of St Hilary falls on the 14th of January. He is recorded as having died on 13/01/368, and so it is most likely that any reference to a "Hilary term" would have been what I described as the "Easter term" above.

Having spent 20-some years as a Roman Catholic and having experienced the Tridentine Mass, it was beautiful. Especially the Solemn High Pontifical Mass...those were the days. But those days are gone for me. My grandmother was Orthodox and I followed her example.

What's with those Eastern Rite Orthodox making the sign of the cross so big?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š It looks like they're just trying to put on a show.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š And why do they go to the two icons in front of the iconostosis to cross them selves and then go all the way to the ground; it looks so fake.

Ok I understand, sorry I should not judge . I simply raised this point because I heard or rather read some Roman Catholics wanting the return of the bells during the Mass and other superficial things. Is it so important? I also know that St Augustine talks about the right way and the wrong way of worshipping God, but asks that we do not mock or judge the African Churches who may dance and use musical instruments in their Church services.

If you were serious with your comments, don't you think that it is in the Cross that we should boast? I know that some over-do it with the cross thing and almost jump off the ground when they make their cross, but this is just some zealots. I'm sure you have them tioo.

I simply raised this point because I heard or rather read some Roman Catholics wanting the return of the bells during the Mass and other superficial things.

But these "superficial things" you talk about are things that help make the Roman rite what it is. Little things can mean a lot to people, especially when they're taken away. Suppose that all the Orthodox churches decided to do away with bells on the censer, or the little entrance, or most of the litanies, or decided that from now on the priest's vestments would be made out of ordinary, plain linen cloth. Don't you think that these would cause a change in the feel of the worship, and that people might miss them and want them to be brought back?

And I wouldn't call the bells as used in the Latin rite superficial either. They are used to mark the high points of the liturgy, especially the "Hoc est enim corpus meam" which really is the high point in Western Theology.