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A challenge for the Hungarian opposition: Can they cooperate?

Yesterday’s post prompted a lively discussion. My position has been clear for a very long time. Given the new electoral law, no opposition party can single-handedly dislodge Viktor Orbán’s government. There must be a unified opposition with a single list. Just as Tamás Bauer warned on the video I provided, supporters of individual parties will have to vote for people they don’t particularly like because this new unified group/party will be able to put up only one candidate in each of the 106 electoral districts. Some LMP followers will have to vote for an MSZP candidate; some MSZP supporters will have to vote for DK’s candidate. It will be hard, but it must be done.

Collaboration

As the candidate of such a unified opposition party I don’t see a better person than Gordon Bajnai. He proved himself to be a capable crisis manager. He has political experience, which is a must. One cannot pick up some civic group leader and make him prime minister. It would be a disaster. Bajnai doesn’t belong to any party, and it would be a stretch to call him a man of MSZP. Yes, MSZP-SZDSZ supported him, but not because they agreed with all that he was doing. They supported him because they knew that the economic situation was so grave that without the further austerity measures he introduced the whole edifice might collapse. For the parties that, let’s hope, will gather under the umbrella of “Together 2014” it will be easier to accept a non-party man instead of the leader of one of the constituent parties.

As for the sins of the past. In my opinion the major “sin,” if one could call it that, of the governments between 2002 and 2010 was that they refused to use antidemocratic measures against an undemocratic and aggressive opposition. Fidesz in opposition didn’t behave according to the rules of the game in a democracy. Viktor Orbán used every possible illegal means to overthrow the legitimate government–if necessary, with the help of skinhead football hooligans and criminals. For four solid years Fidesz (and Jobbik) falsified the history of the events of October-November 2006. They also falsified the speech of Ferenc Gyurcsány. One can repeat endlessly, as some people do even on this blog, that it was a speech about his own lies. No, it wasn’t. It was about all the empty promises parties had made in the hope of electoral victory. And this was true of all governments from 1990 on, and that included the first Orbán government as well. Gyurcsány was also talking about Medgyessy’s irresponsible promises and about his own two years in office. He tried to explain to the MSZP parliamentary delegation that this must stop because otherwise the country is heading toward financial ruin.

As we know, three MSZP bigwigs–and Gyurcsány most likely knows who they are–sent the speech straight to Fidesz. Orbán had his man at Magyar Rádió who picked out one sentence from the long speech and broadcast it over and over.

A new book by József Debreczeni strongly suggests that Fidesz knew of the planned siege of the television station before it occurred and that the behind-the-scene organizers gave explicit instructions on how far these criminal elements should go. It is also known that several Fidesz MPs were in telephone contact with the far-right elements who were attacking the police on October 23. It has been clear for some time that the Fidesz demonstration was staged at the Astoria Hotel in order to be close to Deák tér and that the criminal elements were instructed “to pull the police” close to the Fidesz demonstration. The result was predictable. The two groups intermingled and some innocent bystanders ended up among the violent groups who were throwing rocks at the police.

It is also a well known fact that certain key MSZP party leaders refused to support Ferenc Gyurcsány either because they didn’t like the reforms he wanted to introduce or because of his eagerness to make a clean sweep of the corruption within MSZP. It is no coincidence that years later Gyurcsány felt that he had no choice but to abandon MSZP and establish a party of his own. So, to make Gyurcsány responsible for MSZP’s mistaken policies is unfair.

As for the much talked about corruption. One witness after the other in important corruption cases claim that they were intimidated into giving false testimony by the police or by the prosecutors. The prosecutor’s office has been in Viktor Orbán’s pocket for a long time, but until now at least the courts have been more or less independent. No wonder that one of the first decisions of the Orbán government was to fire over 300 judges and replace them with young men and women favored by the regime.

In order to win this election every vote counts. No one can give up 300-400,000 DK voters just because some people think that Ferenc Gyurcsány was responsible for the two-thirds majority. What about Fidesz’s behavior in opposition? What about Orbán’s lies? And what about those “liberals” who refused to vote in 2010 because their favorite party, SZDSZ, was no more? How many votes were lost there? I know people who couldn’t be convinced that not voting means a vote for Fidesz. Some of them are well known political commentators today.

I also remember so-called liberals who actually rooted for Fidesz to get a two-thirds majority because they considered such a landslide victory a sure foundation for an entirely different kind of politics. Well, they got what they asked for, but it seems that by now they themselves realize that they completely misjudged Viktor Orbán and Fidesz.

The Hungarian people must learn that there are no perfect choices at election time. You must choose the party you find the best (or the least noxious). Some people might find in MSZP, some in LMP, and some in DK the party closest to his political views. All three parties and the new civic political groups are committed to democracy, and that is the most important consideration. We know that Fidesz is not a democratic party. In fact, Viktor Orbán is building an autocrat state along the lines of Mussolini’s fascist Italy. This must be prevented. I suggest that everybody put aside their selfish personal interests for the sake of salvaging Hungarian democracy. What is left of it.

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89 comments

Tyrker is saying things I’d perhaps not like to hear (as someone with a reasonably positive view of Bajnai) but I think what he is saying is largely true. And although LMP has been criticised for not joining with E14, in all fairness, LMP is a legally constituted entity, unlike E14, which doesn’t yet exist on any formal level. So it is almost a case of the tail wagging the dog (but this may change.)

I felt a huge sense of gloom this morning reading Index, seeing that MSZP are lining up Pál Steiner as the candidate for the new 1st and 5th district constituency. Ex MSZMP, wretchedly corrupt when 5th district mayor, a hopeless communicator, it demonstrates how out of touch MSZP are with reality if it thinks it can return to power on the backs of these dinosaurs.

Tyrker: I believe you are mistaken. The fact that a lot of people live in rural areas, does not mean that they are agrarian-minded (certain groups, for example romas, who live in villiages, have no connection to land whatsoever).

Only a fraction of rural people work in agriculture (as agriculture, like other industries, underwant huge automatisation, and although Hungary still lags in efficiency, the gains have been signifcant).

Rural people don’t feel themselves paraszt (farmar, smallholder) as they did in 1946. If anything is needed, it is that rural people move to towns as there will be no jobs in rural areas. Although poor and rural Hungarians are hopelessly non-mobile. It is mostly the educated middle class which moves abroad, poor people from Békés county will not move to Győr (partly because they are so poor that they cant buy a train ticket).

Anyway, there is no visible demand for an agricultural party. (Not to mention the fact that rural voter turnout, interest in politics, has been consistently and signifcantly lower than the national average).

Kingfisher: you are spot on. Steiner is hoplessly corrupt and incompetent, has no vision whatsoever, besides being tired and not hungry enough. Antal Rogán (from district V.), who is as agressive and savvy politically as you can be, I can assure you, was laughing hard, when he heard this news.

It is NOT possible to win with people like him (and like Hiller, Szekeres, Péter Kiss etc.) who are simply not equipped with the abilities to match Lázár, Rogán, Kósa etc. who are extremely tough and merciless (besides of course being thoroughly corrupt and hyperloyal to the Fidesz leadership) and use their power network (i.e. in the prosecutors office, Constitutional Court, “independent” chambers like that of phisicians, media etc.), without scrouples. The bland wavering impotentcy (töketlenkedés) which is so charateristic of this MSZP generation is simply not enough to win and govern effectively and decisively.

Bajnai was never an oligarch, that is ridiculous. Atlatszo made a huge mistake, or rather, they wanted to to seem bipartizan and get cred from the right, but could not give evidence why they thought Bajnai was in the same category as Simicska or Nyerges.

tappanch :
The Fidesz party voted 10 minutes ago for introducing the new law restricting people’s right to vote (them out) and banning political commercials in commercial media.
I guess we can read the juicy details later.

Now a clear violation of principle of freedom of speech…. Anyone looking in the direction of Brussels?

It does not really matter if you litigate in Luxembourg, ‘cos even if you win, TV2 and Rtlklub (and the commercial radio station etc.) will simply refuse to show (air) political ads at their “own” well-considered initiative.

After all, who wants to get a media authority review and a couple of 100 millions in fines for showing tv programs which have the capacity to endanger the moral development of children etc.

Fidesz doesn’t have to call up the media outlets to make sure they refuse, they will do so automatically. They have been properly trained and media companies are “smart” in general.

Perhaps internet sites can show political ads, but you get the least bang for your buck on the internet. Internet users are more opinionated and less open to advertisments.

Also, you would want to reach pensioners (who simply don’t use internet or read any independent newspapers; they listen to state radio and state tv and watch RTL/TV2) and middle class people in bigger towns (but not too rural places, where people don’t vote so actively; especially if you need to register, which in small places will be tantamout to adversising that you, as a non-fidesz person want to go against the government – the rural municipality board will know that you will not vote for Fidesz partly because they know you personally, partly because you are not on Fidesz’s GOTV “Kubatov” list).

These groups don’t use internet so whatever is not on TV2 or Rtlklub (or the local municipality tv or newspaper – both controlled by Fidesz all over the country) might as well does not extist.

Tyrker :
Yet they expect everyone else, including long-established political parties, to join them.
…the top priority is to prevent the Socialists and their cronies from returning to power. If this can be achieved alongside the dismissal of the current government, great, but if not, then they will vote for Fidesz again, just less enthusiastically than two years ago.

If your assessment is correct, one can wish only the best to the voters. In particular, one should wish that they indeed live in the countryside and own already the chickens and other farm animals and a piece of land, and do not need the government much. Just in case the economic miracles that Fidesz is performing will make only a very few people really rich and the other so poor as to be dependent on Jobbik type welfare. (I am sure it is a true consolation that those rich are former socialists turned “patriots”, and not current socialists.)

As regards your earlier statement, I think it is a good opportunity to repeat what Gordon Bajnai urged people to do:

Assemble those wanting change: provide your signatures, get involved with Milla, with Solidarity, with Patriotism and Progress or with your chosen party! Protest and organize yourselves. Tell your representatives, your parties, that you want collaboration, that you expect cooperation from them and between them!

tappanch :
The Fidesz party voted 10 minutes ago for introducing the new law restricting people’s right to vote (them out) and banning political commercials in commercial media.
I guess we can read the juicy details later.

Zsolt :
So in fact, Jobbik taking some of the voterbase from Fidesz would greatly help the Left.
Something like 30% of Fidesz supporters have Jobbik sympathies.
It would be interesting if Fidesz, Jobbik and the left wing coalition ended up having similar sized voterbases.

Zsolt, if Jobbik has a choice it will get together with Fidesz in a coalition and then soon Jobbik will end up like the Smallholders. I think this is what Orbán has in mind.

Wrong.
It is high time that people realize that Orban’s policies are NOT mistaken: they are directed in the destruction of the country. (Take your best guess as to why.) Once we accept that, then we can postulate that, a) Orban plans to leave and b) the best route to further destruction is the promotion of Jobbik to head a Fidesz/Jobbik coalition…

Mutt: “What is stopping the Together 2014 from becoming a party and starting to issue membership cards and taking the dues?”

I’m a little puzzled by this too. My guess is that they eventually plan on using MSZP’s infrastructure or that by establishing a party, they would automatically become de facto competition for MSZP, LMP and DK and that would make the negotiations a lot harder.

@Zsolt you have suggested that Gyöngyösi should be a candidate for PM. You also suggested Jobbik is not bigoted. Yet, Gyöngyösi suggested in parliament that Jews in the government should be listed by the government because they present a national security threat. Now why would anyone think Jobbik is a neonazi party?

Jano :
Mutt: “What is stopping the Together 2014 from becoming a party and starting to issue membership cards and taking the dues?”

I thought they did not wish to become a party because they wanted to be a platform for nearly any political movement as long as it is dedicated to reintroducing democracy in the spirit of the EU. To make it easier to find some common ground given the very diverse ideas and people. So that cooperating with the apparently endless number of (mutually) “discredited” people would be necessary ONLY for this one purpose. For me these campaigns linking Gordon Bajnai with Ferenc Gyurcsany “make sense” as they make cooperation as envisaged by Együtt impossible. But they are also proof of that support for (modern, Western) democracy among the politically active people is less strong than hoped before.

Pete H. :
@Zsolt you have suggested that Gyöngyösi should be a candidate for PM. You also suggested Jobbik is not bigoted. Yet, Gyöngyösi suggested in parliament that Jews in the government should be listed by the government because they present a national security threat. Now why would anyone think Jobbik is a neonazi party?http://nepszava.com/2012/11/velemeny/torok-monika-zsido-vagyok.html
“Gyöngyösi Márton (Jobbik) ma a magyar parlamentben felvetette, hogy nemzetbiztonsági okokból listázni kéne a zsidó származású képviselőket és kormánytagokat.”

Wrong.
I suggested Volner for PM.
And Gyöngyösi is right, Hungarians with Israeli (terrorist state) citizenship do pose a security threat to the country.

If you want more, these Jews will explain it to you, they feel the same way:

This is not “anti-semitism”, but anti-zionism and anti-terrorism, which as you can see above, many true Jews also oppose.

Zsolt you and your Nazi friends at Jobbik and elsewhere are a threat to all of Europe – if you should come to power it really would be best for you to leave the EU (and Europe …) whose values you seem to hate so much!

What anti-semitic propaganda? I have nothing against the good Jews like in the videos I posted, or ones that are harmless and live a normal life.
There are good and bad in every group, is it anti-semitic to point this out?

Pete H. is right. Something absolutely dreadful happened in the Hungarian parliament. That Gyöngyösi wants a list of Jewish members of parliament and government because they pose a threat to national security is one thing. But that the speaker of the house allows him to finish his speech and that Zsolt Németh’s only answer is that they are not planning such research project is truly outlandish.

Andor Schuck (Hungarian Social Democratic Party) was absolutely beside himself today. He was called into Olga Kálmán’s program to talk about the HSDP but they never got to this topic. He kept talking about the incident.

Gyöngyösi suggested in parliament that Jews in the government should be listed by the government because they present a national security threat.

…

And Gyöngyösi is right, Hungarians with Israeli (terrorist state) citizenship do pose a security threat to the country.
This is not “anti-semitism”, but anti-zionism and anti-terrorism, which as you can see above, many true Jews also oppose.

No, this IS anti-Semitism and you and your nazi friends can go and f* yourselves.

You and your JOBBIK friends will never be more then big mouth idiots in the parliament. But it pays at least (for them). You will vote for Vona and he keeps the cushy job for 4 more years.

Eva, I also think that the freedom of speech granted to Zsolt was sufficient to understand his thinking.
Zsolt, should I be so keen on learning more about your organisation, I will contact your websites directly. This blog’s main interest is not to read over and over Jobbik’s world view. Most of us do not share it and will not share it even if you try hard. Certainly you can respect this, and just stop contributing here.

Gyöngyösi suggested in parliament that Jews in the government should be listed by the government because they present a national security threat.
…
And Gyöngyösi is right, Hungarians with Israeli (terrorist state) citizenship do pose a security threat to the country.
This is not “anti-semitism”, but anti-zionism and anti-terrorism, which as you can see above, many true Jews also oppose.

No, this IS anti-Semitism and you and your nazi friends can go and f* yourselves.
You and your JOBBIK friends will never be more then big mouth idiots in the parliament. But it pays at least (for them). You will vote for Vona and he keeps the cushy job for 4 more years.
Now get the f* out of this blog.

Same can be said about your friends in the DK, LMP and MSZP, who are only in it for the money and protectio
They will never win another election again, you know it, I know it, so keep wasting your votes.

Pete H. :
@Zsolt you have suggested that Gyöngyösi should be a candidate for PM. You also suggested Jobbik is not bigoted. Yet, Gyöngyösi suggested in parliament that Jews in the government should be listed by the government because they present a national security threat. Now why would anyone think Jobbik is a neonazi party?
“Gyöngyösi Márton (Jobbik) ma a magyar parlamentben felvetette, hogy nemzetbiztonsági okokból listázni kéne a zsidó származású képviselőket és kormánytagokat.”

Wrong.
I suggested Volner for PM.
And Gyöngyösi is right, Hungarians with Israeli (terrorist state) citizenship do pose a security threat to the country.
If you want more, these Jews will explain it to you, they feel the same way:
This is not “anti-semitism”, but anti-zionism and anti-terrorism, which as you can see above, many true Jews also oppose.
Or do you really hate Palestinians so much?

Do you want me to start posting 100 youtube videos about how radical and simple minded Jobbik is? Also it is time for you to take you nazi propaganda somewhere else. Maybe to the pages of Magyar Hirlap. Would that suffice?
I cannot fathom how can you be so uninformed and still proudly post things that make no sense.
EVERY and let me repeat this, every Jew in the world can apply for Israeli citizenship. If we take your favourite party seriously for a minute, it is obvious that in their eye, every single Hungarian Jew is a national security threat. WHat are you going to do about it smarty pants? You call Fidesz, Zsidesz, so you are telling me that yBy the way the “Israeli Jews are no security threat. You and Jobbik is the threat. Jews did not attack homosexuals, and gypsies. Members and the fan club of Jobbik attacking other Hungarians.
I asked you once, and I will not ask you again, as obviously you cannot find the video about the “peaceful” Jobbik demonstration of the Jobbik in Devecser. You remember where you supported the gypsies so much that even the rock you threw landed on your Jobbik buddy.
THe video you posted about Jews protesting against Israel… It is not representative of most Jews. Let me tell you, I have no relatives who dress in orthodox outfits, and I highly doubt that any of the Jewish readers of this blog do.
Now back to the Jews are being a threat to Hungary. You know why you say that? Because “your friends” as you named them, the Iranians do have terrorists and they do employ terrorists. I am sure you are not afraid from some Jew attacking you, or a Jew committing suicide bombing anywhere. Can you tell us an example, where any Jew used suicide bombing? DId you ever heard of Jews tying bombs on little girls and boys and sending them into crowds to detonate themselves? SO, what kind of terrorist threat are you talking about my very smart friend? Can you be more specific? The only terrorist threat is coming from radicals, and those are nor the Jews. Examples please on what Hungarians should be afraid of.
Do not mix in here the middle East conflict here. We have many people who feel very strongly about this issue, but let me tell you one thing, the problem is not amongst us. It is not that any of us hate or love the Jews or the Palestinians. It is the politicians and you who try to make this issue sound like that we have to choose between Jews or Arabs. THat is only what Jobbik does. If you are a Jew or gypsy or homosexual, you cannot be Hungarian, as Hungary belongs to Hungarians. THe world belongs to all my friend. Canada belongs to all who got a citizenship, and we have no war. Your thinking is a problem. Your attitude is a problem. You represent the Jobbik. For Jobbik there is black and white, but the world is a rainbow Zsolt, and there are many shades, Jews, Arabs, Hungarians, Africans, and the whet belongs to you is that little tiny spot you are standing on.

Is there anything in English on the Gyöngyösi’s speech? I can’t find anything on the usual sites. Is his speech available in English?

If this was widely publicised outside of Hungary, it would do more harm to Fidesz-Jobbik and Orbán than anything else they’ve done or said so far.

In the civilised, post-Holocaust world, you just don’t stand up in parliament and demand a list of Jews in government. It is to Fidesz’s and Orbán’s (and I’m afraid, Hungary’s) eternal shame that someone is allowed to make such a speech in parliament and is not even criticised afterwards.

I thought I was beyond shock with the current situation in Hungary, but this really shook me.

Paul, I think that soon enough it will be available in English. The upshot of the speech was that a list of members of parliament and government who have Jewish ancestry should be identified and listed because they are a threat to Hungary’s national security.

This is bad enough but what is worse is that Zsolt Német, undersecretary in the foreign ministry, gave an unsatisfactory answer to Gyöngyösi. He simply said that the Hungarian government has no intention to “reseach” the matter..

I just heard from a historian friend of mine who knows the late Horthy regime very well that such a speech even in the Horthy regime of the 1930s and 1940s couldn’t have been delivered without some people yelling something or leaving the chamber in protest. Today everybody just sat there.

Mind you, again the deputy speaker of the house, a Jobbik member of parliament, was residing.

Pete H. :
@Zsolt you have suggested that Gyöngyösi should be a candidate for PM. You also suggested Jobbik is not bigoted. Yet, Gyöngyösi suggested in parliament that Jews in the government should be listed by the government because they present a national security threat. Now why would anyone think Jobbik is a neonazi party?http://nepszava.com/2012/11/velemeny/torok-monika-zsido-vagyok.html
“Gyöngyösi Márton (Jobbik) ma a magyar parlamentben felvetette, hogy nemzetbiztonsági okokból listázni kéne a zsidó származású képviselőket és kormánytagokat.”

Wrong.
I suggested Volner for PM.
And Gyöngyösi is right, Hungarians with Israeli (terrorist state) citizenship do pose a security threat to the country.
If you want more, these Jews will explain it to you, they feel the same way:

This is not “anti-semitism”, but anti-zionism and anti-terrorism, which as you can see above, many true Jews also oppose.
Or do you really hate Palestinians so much?

Yup, Jews are a threat alright…to the massive idiocy of schmucks like you.
Terrorist state, huh? YOu must’ve been the Hungarian representative to that UN organization once headed by Libya (I forget which.).
You know, the good rabbi was right a few years ago: Hungarian culture and achievement without Jews is a pair of ‘baggy pants and a whistling peach’. Once people got angry at that–Hungarians can’t take criticism, or truth, at all–but now, turkeys like you puff out your chest, twirl your Kover-mustache…and are proud of it!

The parliament voted for the new electoral law. This is not a surprise. However, that the government wants to nationalize the private company that was in charge of the software in charge of the results is something else. What do you think they have in mind? Not terribly difficult to figure it out.

Zsolt :
You know, the good rabbi was right a few years ago: Hungarian culture and achievement without Jews is a pair of ‘baggy pants and a whistling peach’. Once people got angry at that–Hungarians can’t take criticism, or truth, at all–but now, turkeys like you puff out your chest, twirl your Kover-mustache…and are proud of it!

Do you have some anger management issues Zsolt? You must belong to the Jobbik. Better Magyar Guard. hahaha
WHat I love about people like you is that you get tangled in your own idiocracy, and resort to insults, that no one takes as insultlow-self esteemed any longer form the likes of you. It just becomes a noise, a noise that does not belong here Zsolt, and I am telling you why not. It does not belong here because you are not representative of Hungarians. Your only relevance is that with the right propaganda, and by misleading the public your low-self esteemed group (that without such agenda would have no purpose in life) could sidetrack humanity.
You fail to respond to my previous posts, simply because you do not know what to say.
WHy did you put up a “Jobbik supporting gipsies” link that was just filmed a couple of weeks ago coincidentally, while preaching to the readers how not nazi Jobbik is? (“They are not “Neo-Nazi” or “Far right”, but a Center right party with fresh ideas”)
WHere are additional, older footage on Jobbik supporting gypsies, homosexuals, etc?
(“Don’t believe everything you hear about them. Jobbik does NOT want to kill Gypsies, or anything like that.”) Take a look on the Devecser footage supplied above.
Why did you fail to put up the footage from Devecser?
Don’t you see anything funny about “Vona himself has criticized the Arrow Cross.” but he walks into the parliament in the Magyar Guard uniform, and allows Magyar Guard to terrorize Jews and gypsies?
By the way, what is the exact threat the Hungarian Jews pose? On the other thread you said the Hungarian Israeli citizens, but here you are talking about Hungarian Jews, so which one is it?