I really fail to see what this has to do with Camillas current events! But with the full knowledge that it will be deleted from this thread I will reply to your post repeating the same old same old from you. You hold his ex wife up as lady wonderful, when in fact she committed her own 'actions' (repeatedly with numerous partners, some married, engaged or otherwise spoken for) and unless you have absolute proof, it is only your opinion that the ex wife only indulged after her husband. So if it's not about the first wife (ex wife), surely you should be on the ex wifes thread condemning her!

I am not reading anything into it. You said above I 'hold his ex wife up as lady wonderful'. I ask you again to please cut and paste where I have done so. Also, I was not aware that there was an actual 'ex wifes thread condemning her'. Is that the exact title? *Gone off to check*

You have clearly read into my post that I consider all Diana fans, loonies, this is what you wrote -

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I simply point out that if anyone does not like Charles or camilla on the basis of their own actions we get sloughed off as Diana Loonies which you have just done right there.

Clearly I never said such a thing but then again you liked to say 'A CERTAIN POSTER SAID UNLESS IT WAS IN A STATEMENT RELEASED BY ......', which again was untrue and something you had misinterpreted or had in your own mind.

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You said above I 'hold his ex wife up as lady wonderful'. I ask you again to please cut and paste where I have done so.

Read through some of the posts you have made in the threads and you might get an idea where I get that impression from. It is worth rereading my post as I said you 'hold his ex up as lady wonderful', not that you had ever posted such a comment. I have searched the threads and not found ONE post from you that condemns the ex for her numerous adulterous affairs.

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so, I was not aware that there was an actual 'ex wifes thread condemning her'. Is that the exact title? *Gone off to check*

Nor is there a thread entitled condemning Camilla, but you seem determined to vent your spleen/condemn Camilla in every thread. Perhaps there ought to be a thread discussing the ex's many affairs, but it might exceed the bandwidth available!

I notice, that you have been unable to clarify your statement

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It's not about the first wife. Some of the things I dont like them for were before Diana came onto the scene, even though we did not learn about them until after the fact.

I ask again -
So you didn't like them, for what? Before Diana came on the scene, most people knew/know very little about their relationship pre Diana as neither they nor their friends have spoken about it.

. . . . .I ask again - So you didn't like them, for what? Before Diana came on the scene, most people knew/know very little about their relationship pre Diana as neither they nor their friends have spoken about it.

I have wondered that myself. There have been more than a few who have postulated the "tragic lovers separated by the BRF who resumed an illicit relationship after they were both married to others" scenario.

Does anyone have any irrefutable truth that this is a fact? Because IMO it seems that more than a few (yes Scooter I am including you) are basing their opinion on Charles and Camilla "since the wedding" on largely unsubstatiated gossip regarding the above.

__________________MARG"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes

I personally find it sad that some people should condemn Charles and Camilla because of the Camilla-gate transcript. While it is true that they talked about where and when they could spend time together andyes, this discussion was quite success-orientated and thus not necessarily cosy, it shows the difficulties these two were in at that time. I'd have prefered it, too, if they could simply have fixed a date and a place and that would have been that.

But the most important thing for me was the clear impression of deep love, of finding the other more important than oneself, of offering comfort, praise, friendship and understanding. Of longing, deep inner longing born out of love. That touched me very much. As we all know from various biographies that are on the serious side, Charles did not find this kind of love with Diana and I guess the marriage of Camilla and APB did not offer this kind of deep feelings as well, even though they at least managed to stay friends, propably on accepting that their marriage wasn't enough.

The whole tape for me only shows how very intimate, very close and loving they are and that Charles is not afraid to tell Camilla how very, very close he wants to be with her - which for a gentleman of his age and upbringing was quite something to do. And now the whole world can judge him by these most intimate feelings - that is the shame, not the talk in itself.

__________________'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.

I'm afraid I am one of those types of people who when confronted with something he cannot change or is out of his control just accepts it and moves on. For me personally, the failure of C & D's marriage and her death can be looked back on as being sad but it's pointless arguing or regretting or wishing it had never happened! No one in their right mind should be angry over C getting married to C - unless your anger can bring some result to what you want you're all wasting your time and would be psychologically happier if you channelled your energies more positively! It's not an ideal situation to have Diana divorced and dead and Camilla divorced and re-married to Charles but that's what happened - it's reality! Accept it or move to Denmark where having a royal family is a much happier and easier thing to have!

Under the circumstances, I think Camilla has carried out her role really well. She's funny, laughs alot, is friendly, dresses well and looks after herself. She seems to be a great support to her husband (who by all accounts can be a difficult person to be with) and so I'm pleased we have her. At least she doesn't give interviews or goes running to the media to tell tales like C & D did. At least she doesn't appear to have a hidden agenda to get one up on everyone else lie C & D did. All in all she has acted more royally than some of the royals. She's not perfect nor is she Mother Theresa, but she's what we've got and I for one am not going to live out the rest of my days lamenting over the past and wishing D was still alive or William was next in line to the throne.

But the most important thing for me was the clear impression of deep love, of finding the other more important than oneself, of offering comfort, praise, friendship and understanding. Of longing, deep inner longing born out of love. That touched me very much.

(snip)

The whole tape for me only shows how very intimate, very close and loving they are and that Charles is not afraid to tell Camilla how very, very close he wants to be with her - which for a gentleman of his age and upbringing was quite something to do. And now the whole world can judge him by these most intimate feelings - that is the shame, not the talk in itself.

This is how I think of the tape, too.

I felt very sorry for them both having that intimate conversation made public, but it did provide an insight into their feelings for each other and the dynamics of their relationship which we otherwise would never have known.

I have wondered that myself. There have been more than a few who have postulated the "tragic lovers separated by the BRF who resumed an illicit relationship after they were both married to others" scenario.

Does anyone have any irrefutable truth that this is a fact? Because IMO it seems that more than a few (yes Scooter I am including you) are basing their opinion on Charles and Camilla "since the wedding" on largely unsubstatiated gossip regarding the above.

Marg, please explain to me how a direct quote from Charles and Camilla on TAPE is unsubstansiated gossip?

[ed by Warren: gratuitous introduction of material which has no relevance whatsoever to the thread topic.]

. . . . . some of the things I dont like them for were before Diana came onto the scene, even though we did not learn about them until after the fact. . . . . . .

This was the part of the post I was referring to.

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Originally Posted by scooter

Marg, please explain to me how a direct quote from Charles and Camilla on TAPE is unsubstansiated gossip?

I fail to see how any tape, post Diana, could explain dislike of them from before Diana. It perplexes me greatly. The tape in question merely verifys the relationship at that time! It does not however, answer the question I posed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARG

I have wondered that myself. There have been more than a few who have postulated the "tragic lovers separated by the BRF who resumed an illicit relationship after they were both married to others" scenario.

Does anyone have any irrefutable truth that this is a fact?

Which was, in itself, a reiteration of Skydragons question;

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I ask again - So you didn't like them, for what? Before Diana came on the scene, most people knew/know very little about their relationship pre Diana as neither they nor their friends have spoken about it.

__________________MARG"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes

I like them. I think that they make a good team and have worked hard at their respective roles.

In regards to the Duchess taking the title of Queen, I think that the there will be more than enough time before Charles ascends to the throne for people to move on sufficiently for that to take place.

I think (or perhaps hope) that people will be pragmatic enough to accept them in their new roles.

Well Marg, I try to explain, but the relative portions of my post get deleted as 'gratuitous introduction of material that has no relevance to the topic at hand', so I'm not sure how to explain what and why without it being deleted. I am sure that you are as frustrated by my 'not explaining' as I am by my not being allowed to explain. Believe me, I have tried (see #809 above).

Well Marg, I try to explain, but the relative portions of my post get deleted as 'gratuitous introduction of material that has no relevance to the topic at hand', so I'm not sure how to explain what and why without it being deleted. I am sure that you are as frustrated by my 'not explaining' as I am by my not being allowed to explain.

From my reading of the discussion there is a problem with your comments.

You say you don't like Camilla because of events BEFORE Diana came on the scene, which I interpret at being before late 1980, when everyone started to become aware of her in Charles' life.

Then you use the Camillagate tape to justify your dislike of Camilla dating from before Diana i.e. before late 1980. However the Camillagate tape was done after the publication of the Morton Book in 1992.

People are wanting to know why you say you dislike Camilla because of things she did before 1980.

Using a tape made in 1992 isn't answering that question at all and in fact is irrelevant to the question you have been asked to answer.

Remember that Camilla didn't get much of a mention in the 1970s as a companion of Charles and most of what we know has come out after Diana told her story to Andrew Morton. In other words the general public didn't know she existed before Diana so please explain why, things she did before Diana, have made you dislike her by giving examples of what she did then.

We know she liked Charles, she married Andrew, she remained friends with Charles, she gave him advice on suitable brides.... Which of these things makes you dislike her? A good friend will often give advice about the suitability of a friend's future partner - so nothing wrong there. Remaining friends with a former boyfriend - not a problem. Having an affair with a single man - not really a good thing except that it seems that both Andrew and she had a marriage where total faithfulness wasn't seen as necessary - if anyone should be having a problem with her having that affair it should have been Andrew and if he didn't then no-one else should.

What else did she do BEFORE Diana? That is what you have been asked time and again and have refused to answer.

Warren, it is very frustrating to me when I am directly asked 'why dont I like Camilla and Charles' that I am not allowed to answer the question. Here...I'll give you another example of why I dont like them (different from the last few deleted).and perhaps Skydragon can answer since she has a broad knowledge of the armed forces in Britain. Here in the US, if a Colonel of a regiment (for example) is found to be having a sexual relationship with the spouse of an officer subordinate to 'The Colonel' the senior officer would be brought before a Court Martial, and, if found to be in fact having said sexual relationship, the senior officer will be dishonorably discharged from the military. Does Britain not have a regulation in the armed services covering this situation? Is a superior officer allowed to have a sexual relationship with a junior (to the Colonel) officer's spouse?

Jo...I have on many previous threads cited many published sources that CPB in fact hand picked 'The Bride'. I have used up my 5 minutes of 'scooter time' tonight. I must go back to deal with MIL's issues, who is now in Cardiac Unit (bloodthinnners, pacemaker, clotting pre surgery). I will look up the sources to back up what I have posted tomorrow or the day after. Please be patient and I will dig out the quotes later in the week. Cheers.

ETA: I would like to add that I consider all of you here at TRF to be friends, even if we have different opinions. Even Skydragon who has as radically different an opinion from mine regarding Charles and Camilla is a fellow Horse Person, and as such I consider her to be 'one of the scooter people'.. Whether she wants to be or not! ;-)

I don't understand why you can't say why you dislike Camilla and Charles without quoting the tape.

Is it because they had an affair? Or is it because you believe that Charles always loved Camilla and never loved Diana? Or because you believe that Camilla never stayed out of the marriage? Or what?

Surely you can say it in someway without quoting the tape at all - what exactly is it?

It seems to me simply the fact that they had an affair that they tried to keep secret and like many other people in affairs made disparaging remarks about their spouses in a conversation overheard by an illegally taped conversation. Is their more to it than that?

Scooter is referring, I believe, to the fact that Charles held (and may still hold) the rank of Colonel in Andrew Parker-Bowles regiment and is thus asking whether in Britain wasn't Charles sleeping with Camilla a Court-Martial offense?

In other words could Charles (or even should Charles have been courtmartielled for having an affair with Camilla)?

I doubt if anyone would have considered courtmartialling Charles as it wasn't an active position (he didn't serve on a day-to-day basis). His rank is Honorary I think, with regard to that particular regiment.

Here in the US, if a Colonel of a regiment (for example) is found to be having a sexual relationship with the spouse of an officer subordinate to 'The Colonel' the senior officer would be brought before a Court Martial, and, if found to be in fact having said sexual relationship, the senior officer will be dishonorably discharged from the military. Does Britain not have a regulation in the armed services covering this situation? Is a superior officer allowed to have a sexual relationship with a junior (to the Colonel) officer's spouse?

In the UK the Junior of the officer and his spouse would be moved to a base away from the Senior Officer, (this applies to all the services and regiments) but only if the junior was not involved elsewhere himself and was kicking up.

Now if it had been the wife of or an ordinary serviceman/woman having the affair with an officer, that is considered a heinous crime. The officer would not have been dismissed but may have been spoken to by his superior. Courts Martial for affairs are very few and far between.

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Even Skydragon who has as radically different an opinion from mine regarding Charles and Camilla is a fellow Horse Person, and as such I consider her to be 'one of the scooter people'.. Whether she wants to be or not! ;-)

Yes I think apart from our differences on Charles and Camilla, you too are an 'OK' person.

I have witnessed a few of these above mentioned affairs and most of them unless they became too blatant were just ignored, except for the inevitable gossip when the other officers´ wives had their afternoon teas.
Punishment, a good dressing down usually did it. But fraternising with the other ranks was considered a serious breach in discipline.

Scooter is referring, I believe, to the fact that Charles held (and may still hold) the rank of Colonel in Andrew Parker-Bowles regiment and is thus asking whether in Britain wasn't Charles sleeping with Camilla a Court-Martial offense?

Charles was never the colonel of the Blues and Royals, nor was he the Colonel-in-Chief of the Royal Army Veterinary Corps.