golha wrote:In the thread which was locked, Bahai Warrior answered my question about the Bab's claim to Qa'im from the selected writings of the Bab .I thank BW. I have some comments and questions:1.Why haven't many of the books of the Bab been translated into English?the selected writings of the Bab is only 275 pages,while only the persian Bayan is more than 300 pages.

Because Baha'u'llah's Words are the priority now, and we don't have the resources to do all this stuff at once. The Bab Himself said that Baha'u'llah's Words would be much more important.

golha wrote:2.The word " bab" literally means "gate". The Bab in many of his writings cliam to be the Gate of the 12th Imam,namely Muhammad ibn al Hassan...Which of the claim should we belive?

The Bab progressively revealed His status. At first when people understood Him to be the gate of the Imam (as those four gates had done for the Holy Imam in an earlier age), He perhaps didn't correct them. But when He was challenged about it, He stated that He wasn't such a (mere) gate. The others took this to be Him withdrawing His claim, but in actuality, He was only making peace at the time (for His uncle's sake, it would seem) by not yet openly stating the other corresponding part to this denial--i.e., that although He was not a mere gate, He was in fact the "Gate" (with a capital "G")--an independent Manifestation of God Who would prepare the way for yet another Manifestation of God soon to come. He of course later made this claim (when the time was right), and quite boldly and openly in the presence of the Heir to the throne--a bold act which ultimately led to His execution.

By the way, for those claiming there is a Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha stating that the 12th Imam didn't exist, I have at least one Persian (and fairly scholarly) friend who read the Tablet in question and came to the opposite conclusion--that 'Abdu'l-Baha was criticizing any who would state that there wasn't a 12th Imam--but we really need some experts to go through it for us to be sure. If anyone who knows Persian or Arabic (or someone who does) could help, it would be a great asset to our discussions here, as the issue has come up several times already...

As a reference for my post just posted above, there is this passage from Nabil's Narrative/The Dawn-Breakers.

The Bab, as He faced the congregation, declared: "The condemnation of God be upon him who regards me either as a representative of the Imam or the gate thereof. The condemnation of God be also upon whosoever imputes to me the charge of having denied the unity of God, of having repudiated the prophethood of Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, of having rejected the truth of any of the messengers of old, or of having refused to recognise the guardianship of Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, or of any of the imams who have succeeded him." He then ascended to the top of the staircase, embraced the Imam-Jum'ih, and, descending to the floor of the Masjid, joined the congregation for the observance of the Friday prayer. The Imam-Jum'ih intervened and requested Him to retire. "Your family," he said, "is anxiously awaiting your return. All are apprehensive lest any harm befall you. Repair to your house and there offer your prayer; of greater merit shall this deed be in the sight of God."

The Bab was the Forerunner of Baha'u'llah, much like how John the Baptist announced was the coming of Christ. His mission was to get people ready for Baha'u'llah. Most of His laws were very specific. For example one of the Bab's Laws was that you can't eat garlic or onions so that your breath doesn't offend Baha'u'llah, or that you have to stand up when you hear His name, but obviously that isn't applicable now.

For historical reasons it'd be good to translate them, but the Bab Himself said how much more important Baha'u'llah's Words and Revelation would be. We are a small religion right now, and any resources that we have are used for our priorities first (i.e. Tablets of Baha'u'llah).

I SWEAR by the most holy Essence of God--exalted and glorified be He--that in the Day of the appearance of Him Whom God shall make manifest a thousand perusals of the Bayán cannot equal the perusal of a single verse to be revealed by Him Whom God shall make manifest.

Ponder a while and observe that everything in Islam hath its ultimate and eventual beginning in the Book of God. Consider likewise the Day of the Revelation of Him Whom God shall make manifest, He in Whose grasp lieth the source of proofs, and let not erroneous considerations shut thee out from Him, for He is immeasurably exalted above them, inasmuch as every proof proceedeth from the Book of God which is itself the supreme testimony, as all men are powerless to produce its like. Should myriads of men of learning, versed in logic, in the science of grammar, in law, in jurisprudence and the like, turn away from the Book of God, they would still be pronounced unbelievers. Thus the fruit is within the supreme testimony itself, not in the things derived therefrom. And know thou of a certainty that every letter revealed in the Bayán is solely intended to evoke submission unto Him Whom God shall make manifest, for it is He Who hath revealed the Bayán prior to His Own manifestation. (SWB, p. 104)

___________________________________

AT the time of the manifestation of Him Whom God shall make manifest everyone should be well trained in the teachings of the Bayán, so that none of the followers may outwardly cling to the Bayán and thus forfeit their allegiance unto Him. If anyone does so, the verdict of `disbeliever in God' shall be passed upon him.

I swear by the holy Essence of God, were all in the Bayán to unite in helping Him Whom God shall make manifest in the days of His Revelation, not a single soul, nay, not a created thing would remain on earth that would not gain admittance into Paradise. Take good heed of yourselves, for the sum total of the religion of God is but to help Him, rather than to observe, in the time of His appearance, such deeds as are prescribed in the Bayán. Should anyone, however, ere He manifesteth Himself, transgress the ordinances, were it to the extent of a grain of barley, he would have trangressed His command.

Seek ye refuge in God from whatsoever might lead you astray from the Source of His Revelation and hold fast unto His Cord, for whoso holdeth fast unto His allegiance, he hath attained and will attain salvation in all the worlds. (SWB [http://bahai-library.com/writings/bab/swb/swball.html], p. 85)

brettz9 wrote:The Bab progressively revealed His status. At first when people understood Him to be the gate of the Imam (as those four gates had done for the Holy Imam in an earlier age), He perhaps didn't correct them. But when He was challenged about it, He stated that He wasn't such a (mere) gate. The others took this to be Him withdrawing His claim, but in actuality, He was only making peace at the time (for His uncle's sake, it would seem) by not yet openly stating the other corresponding part to this denial--i.e., that although He was not a mere gate, He was in fact the "Gate" (with a capital "G")--an independent Manifestation of God Who would prepare the way for yet another Manifestation of God soon to come. He of course later made this claim (when the time was right), and quite boldly and openly in the presence of the Heir to the throne--a bold act which ultimately led to His execution.

By the way, for those claiming there is a Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha stating that the 12th Imam didn't exist, I have at least one Persian (and fairly scholarly) friend who read the Tablet in question and came to the opposite conclusion--that 'Abdu'l-Baha was criticizing any who would state that there wasn't a 12th Imam--but we really need some experts to go through it for us to be sure. If anyone who knows Persian or Arabic (or someone who does) could help, it would be a great asset to our discussions here, as the issue has come up several times already...

take care,Brett

Dear Brett:

Thank you for your interpretation of the Bab's actions. We really dont have the Bab saying what you have just interpreted. On the other hand, all we have is a series of claims followed by a series of denials. And for all that it is worth, the books of the Bab, which are conveniently "not available", are full of references to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi of Islam.

Baha'i Warrior wrote:The Bab was the Forerunner of Baha'u'llah, much like how John the Baptist announced was the coming of Christ. His mission was to get people ready for Baha'u'llah. Most of His laws were very specific. For example one of the Bab's Laws was that you can't eat garlic or onions so that your breath doesn't offend Baha'u'llah, or that you have to stand up when you hear His name, but obviously that isn't applicable now.

For historical reasons it'd be good to translate them, but the Bab Himself said how much more important Baha'u'llah's Words and Revelation would be. We are a small religion right now, and any resources that we have are used for our priorities first (i.e. Tablets of Baha'u'llah).

bw, have you considered the fact that for Muslims all over the world in 1860 and for Shiites in particular, the advent of the Bab is a big big event. For thousands of years, the Shiites were waiting for the Mahdi and whoosh!, the Mahdi has come and gone. Forget about the world, very few people in Iran knew about the Bab, his laws and claims etc. This is in contrast to the traditions which indicate that the advent of the Mahdi will be known to all.

Secondly, by the time, people (for example, like myself) came to know about the Bab, we were told that he is not relevant anymore, you have to follow Bahaullah.

Thirdly, the life of the Bab itself was mired in controversy and suffering, both for the Bab and his followers. The followers of Bahaullah today are more than ever cribbing about how they are suffering. This too is in contrast to the traditions that the Mahdi will overcome all governments - IN HIS LIFETIME - and not that it will happen sometime in the foreseable future. In fact, if at all the Bahais and present world conditions are to be considered, it is difficult even in the forseable future. Not even the UHJ can tell us when this will happen.

Thank you for your interpretation of the Bab's actions. We really dont have the Bab saying what you have just interpreted. On the other hand, all we have is a series of claims followed by a series of denials.

Well, I quoted from a source. What kind of source do you want? Do you expect us to find a tape recording? ;)

Critics of Islam could make and have made the same arguments as you are making...Challenge the authenticity of the Qur'an, and so on. Do we have Muhammad's signature, etc.? How do we really know the Qur'an was written down by Muhammad? These are not worthy arguments. Only people who feel insecure in their own belief feel the need to persist in making them. The proof lies in its results--in its power to change people for good. Such-and-such tradition is an academic argument and of little relevance to a true believer, much as should be the traditions clung to by Jews or Christians which they understand to refute His Holiness Muhammad.

And for all that it is worth, the books of the Bab, which are conveniently "not available", are full of references to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi of Islam.

Well, Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, has stated that most of the books of the Bab were corrupted by the Azalis. It was a tumultuous time. I believe he stated that only the Bayan and perhaps some other works were preserved. I don't have the information at hand right now.

Is it a conspiracy that we don't have the original palm leaves of the Revelation of His Holiness, Muhammad? Were they "conveniently" lost?

Might I ask you whether you have considered whether you possess some fear of God and have some humility to question whether it is in fact possible that what you are mocking is in fact the True Faith from God? Does it scare you to consider you might be judged for your failure to show humility and some openness of heart when someone has come to you with news that might relate to His Great Announcement? Can it not be possible that words such as "everyone" will see Him, be understood in a different manner?

With there being such prominent heresies in Islam out there as to suggest that people should act immorally in order to hasten the return of the Imam, I would think that any effort in trying to expunge heresies would focus a little more attention on these internal things and less on an independent Faith which clearly has produced both moral and social benefits on its practitioners and those in their arena of influence (and has done a pretty fine job of establishing the Truth of Muhammad to many Jews and Christians in the West such as many Muslims have been unable to do).

But arguing is easier than changing one's own morals, so we often see a lot of attention on the former.

Brett, it's great to have you back! We definitely are in need of some able Baha'i spiritual soldiers at the moment!

brettz9 wrote:Might I ask you whether you have considered whether you possess some fear of God and have some humility to question whether it is in fact possible that what you are mocking is in fact the True Faith from God? Does it scare you to consider you might be judged for your failure to show humility and some openness of heart when someone has come to you with news that might relate to His Great Announcement? Can it not be possible that words such as "everyone" will see Him, be understood in a different manner?

This is the thing that always strikes me. I mean, if I were a Muslim or a Christian, and feared God's chastisement—and further if I truly loved God—then just in case the Baha'i claim is true, I'd want to be very careful. Because if it's true that Baha'u'llah comes from the same Source that Muhammad came from (and indeed Baha'u'llah calls Himself the "Sender of the Messengers"—so He sent Muhammad), the I would be a little hesitant (to say the least) to quickly denounce the Baha'i Faith, especially since by doing so I might at the same time be denouncing the words of the Qur'an, Muhammad, God, and everyone God has sent. But it's easy for people not to see it this way, and convenient too.

By the way Brett, just to let you know, the user iamimranshaykh is the author of an anti-Baha'i website (http://www.bahaiawareness.com, check out his profile). Motive, anyone?

The Bab didn't formally appoint Baha'u'llah, but everyone around Baha'u'llah pretty much knew He was the chosen one, even before He made a formal announcement. I believe in Baha'u'llah because of all the proofs that He presents, His eloquence and His compelling arguments. In His Words I hear the voice of God.

Now, let me ask you, how do you know that Muhammad was the one Jesus prophesied? Do you have any proofs? Let's see 'em. And after you give me that (of course I can deny them just like the Christians do), I'd like you to show me the proofs that Jesus was the one foretold in the Jewish scriptures. I didn't hear of any king seated upon the throne of king David wearing a crown and ruling with a sword claiming to be Jesus. It will now take you some time to prove to me that Muhammad was a Messenger of God, won't it? We'll have to go all the way back to Adam

golha wrote:It is just Bah'ullah's claim and you have acceped it without any "Free invetigation for Truth".The Bab never appointed Bahullah as his successor.If you know any evidence from The Bab's writings-not from Abdulbaha and Shoghi- to nominate Bahullah as " Him Whom God shall make manifest", please suggest it.

Okay, you give me a better candidate, and show me where the Bab mentions him. Or do you want to say that no one eventually took the Bab's place, and that God is powerless to send Another?

Thank you for your interpretation of the Bab's actions. We really dont have the Bab saying what you have just interpreted. On the other hand, all we have is a series of claims followed by a series of denials.

Well, I quoted from a source. What kind of source do you want? Do you expect us to find a tape recording?

I am looking for a clear, unambigious, non-interpreted quotation from the Bab. Are you aware that the Bab had specifically prohibited the interpretation of his words?

Critics of Islam could make and have made the same arguments as you are making...Challenge the authenticity of the Qur'an, and so on. Do we have Muhammad's signature, etc.? How do we really know the Qur'an was written down by Muhammad? These are not worthy arguments. Only people who feel insecure in their own belief feel the need to persist in making them. The proof lies in its results--in its power to change people for good. Such-and-such tradition is an academic argument and of little relevance to a true believer, much as should be the traditions clung to by Jews or Christians which they understand to refute His Holiness Muhammad.

The argument here is about the Bab and the Bahai Faith. I assume that the veracity of Islam is beyond question. In fact even Shoghi acknowledges that of all books from Allah, the Quran is unaltered and in its original form. If we wish to discuss Islam, then lets do it at another place, not here.

The results are not a criteria. What will you take as results? 100,000 followers, 200,000 followers?? If size is the criteria, then a lot of other global religions, including Islam will outnumber the followers of the Bahai Faith. Size does not mean anything.

And for all that it is worth, the books of the Bab, which are conveniently "not available", are full of references to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi of Islam.

Well, Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, has stated that most of the books of the Bab were corrupted by the Azalis. It was a tumultuous time. I believe he stated that only the Bayan and perhaps some other works were preserved. I don't have the information at hand right now.

So much for the results theory. The Quran which came more than 1,400 years ago is uncorrupted, despite the fact that Islam and Muslims were no less persecuted than the Bahais. Yet, the Bab's teachings which are about 150 years old are "conveniently" lost? We have only one, I prepeat, only one, book of the Bab - Selected Writings of the Bab? If his writings were altered and lost and corrupted as you have out it, where did SWB come out of? We should rephrase the sentence as "Only those books of the Bab which are detrimental to the cause of the Bahai Faith are considered to be altered or corrupted." Pardon the harshness, but there are sufficient books of the Bab available i their source languages which contradict the basic premise of the Bahai Faith - tafseere' Surah Kausar, Qayyamul Asma, Dalaelus Sabah, Sahifae' Adaliyah, Bayan etc. I could go on and on. Are all these books corrupted?

Is it a conspiracy that we don't have the original palm leaves of the Revelation of His Holiness, Muhammad? Were they "conveniently" lost?

Of course, the palm leaves were lost. Muslims never claimed to have them. But the original revelation of the Prophet - The Quran is with us as it was revealed. Islam has a rich culture of traditions and a scientific way to establish the veracity of the tradition with the Quran. But as I mentioned above, Islam is not under discussion here - the Bab is and lets stick to that.

Might I ask you whether you have considered whether you possess some fear of God and have some humility to question whether it is in fact possible that what you are mocking is in fact the True Faith from God? Does it scare you to consider you might be judged for your failure to show humility and some openness of heart when someone has come to you with news that might relate to His Great Announcement? Can it not be possible that words such as "everyone" will see Him, be understood in a different manner?

I could turn the same question back to you. You have progressed from Islam to a Faith which claims to have superceeded Islam. No problem with that. If you are correct, so be it. We Muslims must also have the opportunity to do so - but after establishing the veracity of the Faith. That is why I am and I guess a lot of others like myself are at this forum.

And if I look at your question differently, I am more fearful of the wrath of Allah as it is promised in the Quran - that of a physical resurrection. The Bahai punishment is very mild - closeness and farness from Allah - that means nothing to me really. I really do not understand it. Perhaps I may have or may not have experienced it in my life.

But yes, fire, burning, squeezing of the grave, accounting for my actions, reward and punishment, heaven and hell - I understand all that for I experience the fire of this world and I know that it burns - like Hell. So I fear the Islamic concept of the Day of Judgement more than the Bahai concept. Inshallah, I will tackle this in sometime in the future. Not now. For now the discussion is about the Bab.

With there being such prominent heresies in Islam out there as to suggest that people should act immorally in order to hasten the return of the Imam, I would think that any effort in trying to expunge heresies would focus a little more attention on these internal things and less on an independent Faith which clearly has produced both moral and social benefits on its practitioners and those in their arena of influence (and has done a pretty fine job of establishing the Truth of Muhammad to many Jews and Christians in the West such as many Muslims have been unable to do).

But arguing is easier than changing one's own morals, so we often see a lot of attention on the former.

Islam really has no need for the Bahai Faith to espound it case to Jews and Christians. The Bahai Faith needs to do that with Muslims like myself. We need to see logical, concrete and objective proof that the Bab was the Mahdi of Islam. For therein lies the key question - If the Bab was the Mahdi, then how. If he was not, then what happens to the Bahai Faith?

iamimranshaykh wrote:Pardon the harshness, but there are sufficient books of the Bab available i their source languages which contradict the basic premise of the Bahai Faith - tafseere' Surah Kausar, Qayyamul Asma, Dalaelus Sabah, Sahifae' Adaliyah, Bayan etc. I could go on and on. Are all these books corrupted?

Would you please give some examples, first of all? Then we will go from there.

"Praise be unto Him Who at this very moment perceiveth in this remote prison the goal of My desire. He is the One Who beareth witness unto Me at all times and beholdeth Me ere the inception of ‘after Hin’**."
-The Bab (SWB 217)
**The numerical value of the letters of the word Hin is 68. The year 1268 A.H. (1851–1852 A.D.) is the year preceding the birth of the Bahá’í Revelation

Baha'u'llah received His revelation from the Maiden of Heaven in the Sya Chal between 1852 and 1853.

"I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding."
-The Bab (SWB p217)

Baha'u'llah declared openly His revelation in the garden of Ridvan in 1863. Nineteen years after 1844, the year which the Bab claimed to be the Promised One.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Pardon the harshness, but there are sufficient books of the Bab available i their source languages which contradict the basic premise of the Bahai Faith - tafseere' Surah Kausar, Qayyamul Asma, Dalaelus Sabah, Sahifae' Adaliyah, Bayan etc. I could go on and on. Are all these books corrupted?

Would you please give some examples, first of all? Then we will go from there.

Wonderful.

Here is one example:

In the book Sahifae' Adaliyah, not once, but twice on pages 18 and 27, the Bab refers to the twelfth Imam as Hujjat Al Qaem Mohammed Ibnil Hasan Sahebaz Zaman.

Obviously, if the Bab refers some person else as the 12th Imam, then it is not the Bab himself who was the 12th Imam, right? This observation of the Bab as taking some person else as the Mahdi has also come another book of the Bab - so Sahifae Adaliyah is not an isolated case.

"Praise be unto Him Who at this very moment perceiveth in this remote prison the goal of My desire. He is the One Who beareth witness unto Me at all times and beholdeth Me ere the inception of ‘after Hin’**." -The Bab (SWB 217)**The numerical value of the letters of the word Hin is 68. The year 1268 A.H. (1851–1852 A.D.) is the year preceding the birth of the Bahá’í Revelation

Baha'u'llah received His revelation from the Maiden of Heaven in the Sya Chal between 1852 and 1853.

"I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding."-The Bab (SWB p217)

Baha'u'llah declared openly His revelation in the garden of Ridvan in 1863. Nineteen years after 1844, the year which the Bab claimed to be the Promised One.

I have 2 responses:

1. Your response is a typical Bahai one and one which is suited to hardened or "deepened" Bahais. Us, Muslims will need something better - like from the quran and traditions. If you could show us even one verse backed by a tradition indicating that a new prophet or messenger will come, then that will help.

2. Numerology has no place in Islam - who assigned numerical values to alphabets - man of God? Man assigned the alphabets. Also, if numerlogy and number playing was so important, why did the bab and bahaullah not use it as an argument? Also, I repeat, it has not value in Islam.

Argos wrote:Someone else asked how the Baha'u'llah could be "Him Whom God will make Manifest" mentioned by the Bab and I provided possible connections.

Noted. I dont want to digress from the original point about the Bab being the Qaem or the Mahdi and the proofs for the same. Any reason that you can think of why the Bab would speak about a revelation so close to his own in symbols? Mirza Hussain Ali Noori was present at that time, he could have just said that this fellow here will come with a new revelation.

The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles.

Anyway, request that we stick to the point of the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam.

Argos wrote:Someone else asked how the Baha'u'llah could be "Him Whom God will make Manifest" mentioned by the Bab and I provided possible connections.

Noted. I dont want to digress from the original point about the Bab being the Qaem or the Mahdi and the proofs for the same. Any reason that you can think of why the Bab would speak about a revelation so close to his own in symbols? Mirza Hussain Ali Noori was present at that time, he could have just said that this fellow here will come with a new revelation.

The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles.

Anyway, request that we stick to the point of the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam.

Respectfully yours,

Ali was not a new Prophet.

Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

Argos wrote:Someone else asked how the Baha'u'llah could be "Him Whom God will make Manifest" mentioned by the Bab and I provided possible connections.

Noted. I dont want to digress from the original point about the Bab being the Qaem or the Mahdi and the proofs for the same. Any reason that you can think of why the Bab would speak about a revelation so close to his own in symbols? Mirza Hussain Ali Noori was present at that time, he could have just said that this fellow here will come with a new revelation.

The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles.

Anyway, request that we stick to the point of the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam.

Respectfully yours,

Ali was not a new Prophet.

Yes, Zazaban is right. Imam Ali wasn't a prophet.

Also, iamimranshaykh, you say:

"The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles."

Do you have any proof of this? Only a few people heard Him announcing this successorship. It it were clear who He appointed, then at least more than 15% of the Muslim population would be Shi'a.

"The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles."

Do you have any proof of this? Only a few people heard Him announcing this successorship. It it were clear who He appointed, then at least more than 15% of the Muslim population would be Shi'a.

Whether 15% or the entire Muslim population accepted Imam Ali or not is not the question under consideration. Lets assume that nobody accepted Imam Ali - yet there are convservatively more than 2,000 traditions (this is a very very conservative number) on the prophet's declaration of the succesorship of Imam Ali. If we wish to talk about that, then it should move to another thread. Besides, you are Bahai - the succesorship of Imam Ali should be clear to you. Forget about Islamic sources, I could even provide verses from Qayyamul Asma about the succesorship of Imam Ali.

Having said all that, this thread deals with the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam and whether he made a public, clear, unambigious declaration of Bahaullah. Lets stick to this point and not digress please.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Whether 15% or the entire Muslim population accepted Imam Ali or not is not the question under consideration. Lets assume that nobody accepted Imam Ali - yet there are convservatively more than 2,000 traditions (this is a very very conservative number) on the prophet's declaration of the succesorship of Imam Ali. If we wish to talk about that, then it should move to another thread.

But they could be fabricated.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Besides, you are Bahai - the succesorship of Imam Ali should be clear to you. Forget about Islamic sources, I could even provide verses from Qayyamul Asma about the succesorship of Imam Ali.

I know, I never said I didn't believe in the Imams. My point was, you are saying that the Bab never formally appointed Baha'u'llah, and you are basing your belief of Imam Ali's station by tradition, but not by the Words of the Qu'ran. So the point is, not everything in religion is so cut and dried to everyone, that is where the element of faith comes in.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Whether 15% or the entire Muslim population accepted Imam Ali or not is not the question under consideration. Lets assume that nobody accepted Imam Ali - yet there are convservatively more than 2,000 traditions (this is a very very conservative number) on the prophet's declaration of the succesorship of Imam Ali. If we wish to talk about that, then it should move to another thread.

But they could be fabricated.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Besides, you are Bahai - the succesorship of Imam Ali should be clear to you. Forget about Islamic sources, I could even provide verses from Qayyamul Asma about the succesorship of Imam Ali.

I know, I never said I didn't believe in the Imams. My point was, you are saying that the Bab never formally appointed Baha'u'llah, and you are basing your belief of Imam Ali's station by tradition, but not by the Words of the Qu'ran. So the point is, not everything in religion is so cut and dried to everyone, that is where the element of faith comes in.

Wrong - In Islam - we are discussing the Shiite point of view here - everything is cut and dried. Our faith is not led by personal judgement or opinion - it is led by what the Prophet and the Imams told us. They told us and we obeyed.

Coming back to the question - did the Bab make a formal announcement using the name of Bahaullah and / or Mirza Hussayn Ali Noori as the One Whom God will Manifest?

iamimranshaykh wrote:Whether 15% or the entire Muslim population accepted Imam Ali or not is not the question under consideration. Lets assume that nobody accepted Imam Ali - yet there are convservatively more than 2,000 traditions (this is a very very conservative number) on the prophet's declaration of the succesorship of Imam Ali. If we wish to talk about that, then it should move to another thread.

But they could be fabricated.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Besides, you are Bahai - the succesorship of Imam Ali should be clear to you. Forget about Islamic sources, I could even provide verses from Qayyamul Asma about the succesorship of Imam Ali.

I know, I never said I didn't believe in the Imams. My point was, you are saying that the Bab never formally appointed Baha'u'llah, and you are basing your belief of Imam Ali's station by tradition, but not by the Words of the Qu'ran. So the point is, not everything in religion is so cut and dried to everyone, that is where the element of faith comes in.

Wrong - In Islam - we are discussing the Shiite point of view here - everything is cut and dried. Our faith is not led by personal judgement or opinion - it is led by what the Prophet and the Imams told us. They told us and we obeyed.

Coming back to the question - did the Bab make a formal announcement using the name of Bahaullah and / or Mirza Hussayn Ali Noori as the One Whom God will Manifest? Or is it something that "you believe" as such.

Bahaullah making a claim as such does not really count. There were many people who made the claim of One Whom Allah will Manifest - its just that Bahaullah became more popular than the others.

for all you know, the Shiites may claim that their 12th Imam was the one whom the Bab was referring to - the Bab has acknowledged Mohammed ibnil Hasan as the 12th imam at multiple places (sometimes twice in the same book). Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was in occultation even then. How do you know that Bab was not referring to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as the One Whom Allah Will Manifest. For all practical purposes, he could be referring to the 12th Shiite Imam and not Bahaullah. Incidentally, he refers to the 12th Shiite Imam by name, agnomen, title, genelogy everything - The Bab is very clear about Mohammed Ibnil Hasan.

So who will be the one who will judge who is the One Whom Allah will Manifest. Not you. Not me. Not Bahaullah. It will have to be the Bab. So lets hear it from him.

for all you know, the Shiites may claim that their 12th Imam was the one whom the Bab was referring to - the Bab has acknowledged Mohammed ibnil Hasan as the 12th imam at multiple places (sometimes twice in the same book). Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was in occultation even then. How do you know that Bab was not referring to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as the One Whom Allah Will Manifest. For all practical purposes, he could be referring to the 12th Shiite Imam and not Bahaullah. Incidentally, he refers to the 12th Shiite Imam by name, agnomen, title, genelogy everything - The Bab is very clear about Mohammed Ibnil Hasan.

Thats certainly an exceptional point. It never appeared to me to question whether the Bab was referring to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Wrong - In Islam - we are discussing the Shiite point of view here - everything is cut and dried. Our faith is not led by personal judgement or opinion - it is led by what the Prophet and the Imams told us. They told us and we obeyed.

But the Sunnis say your Shi'a hadith are false, fabricated, etc. (like Shi'as say about Sunni hadith), so 85% of Muslims have reason (whether good or bad) to disbelieve in the Imams.

In that same spirit of denial, had the Bab told Joe or Mike that Baha'u'llah would be the Promised One, and had it been written down, then many people would have said "Lies! This is fabricated!" As an expression in Persian goes, the wall of denial is high!

Therefore, humans are good at denying, and justifying their positions, and getting others to believe them sometimes. Religion has always been like this: there is a lot of opposition to the Truth, and there are a lot of reasons to oppose. So: Q: Why does God not make His ways "clear" (in a layman's understanding of the term) to mankind? A: Because life is a test, to weed out the spiritually weak, if you will. Spiritually speaking, to seperate the men from the boys. Like the holy Qur'an says, when we die the truth instantaneously becomes obvious to us; that is when it is too late for many, because in the presence of God no one can tell Him that He wasn't "clear." The Words of the Qur'an put it quite nicely: "Moreover, apostles before thee have been laughed to scorn: but that which they laughed to scorn encompassed the mockers among them!" And further, "They say, too, 'Unless an angel be sent down to him. . . .' But if we had sent down an angel, their judgment would have come on them at once, and they would have had no respite." Therefore, God does not make the Truth "obvious" because He is testing our spiritual purity. If humans did not have this great capacity to deny, the all the Muslims would have instantly become utter devotees to the Imams. But even within Shi'a Islam you also have people who only believe in a certain number of the Imams. Disunity and waywardness and blindness are abundant everywhere (indeed, it is in no short supply), even among the Commander of the Faithful's adherents themselves concerning the Imams, among the many other sources of disagreement.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Coming back to the question - did the Bab make a formal announcement using the name of Bahaullah and / or Mirza Hussayn Ali Noori as the One Whom God will Manifest? Or is it something that "you believe" as such.

The Bab didn't formally announce Baha'u'llah, or anyone else. Baha'u'llah's station is so high that He does not need others to prophesy Him using His blessed Name, and (for me) when I read Baha'u'llah's Writings, they are the Words of God. It is for each to judge for himself, between him and his Maker. Indeed, this is the only way one can figure out who the Bab meant. Of course, many people look at Baha'u'llah's holy Words and pass the judgement that they are not of God—and God forbid, the Words of an "infidel." That is fine, as we all are given free will. God the fair King does not force anyone to do anything in this life. But hey, we could be wrong—anyone can be wrong technically.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Bahaullah making a claim as such does not really count. There were many people who made the claim of One Whom Allah will Manifest - its just that Bahaullah became more popular than the others.

God can do whatever He so chooses is my conviction. "BLESSED be He is whose hand is the KINGDOM! and over all things is He potent."

iamimranshaykh wrote:So who will be the one who will judge who is the One Whom Allah will Manifest. Not you. Not me. Not Bahaullah. It will have to be the Bab. So lets hear it from him.

God is King over all created things, and He does whatever He pleases, without the permission of or dealings with mortal men, and in total disregard of any of their objections. Baha'u'llah has said He is the Manifestation of God; His Words, indeed, attest to this fact, in my humble opinion. Free will: that is all humans need; that is all humans are given.

Baha'i Warrior wrote:But the Sunnis say your Shi'a hadith are false, fabricated, etc. (like Shi'as say about Sunni hadith), so 85% of Muslims have reason (whether good or bad) to disbelieve in the Imams.

In that same spirit of denial, had the Bab told Joe or Mike that Baha'u'llah would be the Promised One, and had it been written down, then many people would have said "Lies! This is fabricated!" As an expression in Persian goes, the wall of denial is high!

Therefore, humans are good at denying, and justifying their positions, and getting others to believe them sometimes. Religion has always been like this: there is a lot of opposition to the Truth, and there are a lot of reasons to oppose. So: Q: Why does God not make His ways "clear" (in a layman's understanding of the term) to mankind? A: Because life is a test, to weed out the spiritually weak, if you will. Spiritually speaking, to seperate the men from the boys. Like the holy Qur'an says, when we die the truth instantaneously becomes obvious to us; that is when it is too late for many, because in the presence of God no one can tell Him that He wasn't "clear." The Words of the Qur'an put it quite nicely: "Moreover, apostles before thee have been laughed to scorn: but that which they laughed to scorn encompassed the mockers among them!" And further, "They say, too, 'Unless an angel be sent down to him. . . .' But if we had sent down an angel, their judgment would have come on them at once, and they would have had no respite." Therefore, God does not make the Truth "obvious" because He is testing our spiritual purity. If humans did not have this great capacity to deny, the all the Muslims would have instantly become utter devotees to the Imams. But even within Shi'a Islam you also have people who only believe in a certain number of the Imams. Disunity and waywardness and blindness are abundant everywhere (indeed, it is in no short supply), even among the Commander of the Faithful's adherents themselves concerning the Imams, among the many other sources of disagreement.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Coming back to the question - did the Bab make a formal announcement using the name of Bahaullah and / or Mirza Hussayn Ali Noori as the One Whom God will Manifest? Or is it something that "you believe" as such.

The Bab didn't formally announce Baha'u'llah, or anyone else. Baha'u'llah's station is so high that He does not need others to prophesy Him using His blessed Name, and (for me) when I read Baha'u'llah's Writings, they are the Words of God. It is for each to judge for himself, between him and his Maker. Indeed, this is the only way one can figure out who the Bab meant. Of course, many people look at Baha'u'llah's holy Words and pass the judgement that they are not of God—and God forbid, the Words of an "infidel." That is fine, as we all are given free will. God the fair King does not force anyone to do anything in this life. But hey, we could be wrong—anyone can be wrong technically.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Bahaullah making a claim as such does not really count. There were many people who made the claim of One Whom Allah will Manifest - its just that Bahaullah became more popular than the others.

God can do whatever He so chooses is my conviction. "BLESSED be He is whose hand is the KINGDOM! and over all things is He potent."

iamimranshaykh wrote:So who will be the one who will judge who is the One Whom Allah will Manifest. Not you. Not me. Not Bahaullah. It will have to be the Bab. So lets hear it from him.

God is King over all created things, and He does whatever He pleases, without the permission of or dealings with mortal men, and in total disregard of any of their objections. Baha'u'llah has said He is the Manifestation of God; His Words, indeed, attest to this fact, in my humble opinion. Free will: that is all humans need; that is all humans are given.

Thank you for your response. I am extremely satisfied with it.

You have through your response made it clear for me that:

1. There was no formal announcement from the Bab about Bahaullah. Bahaullah made a claim for the position.

2. Bab intended Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as "One Whom Allah will Manifest" In atleast 4 books, he has clearly mentioned the name of the 12th Imam as Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, along with his names, titles and agnomen. In the book of Tafseere' Surah Kausar, the Bab acknowledges the long life of the Mahdi along with his 2 occultations et all. We do not claim that the books of the Bab are forgeries. The Bahais do for obvious reasons.

3. Forget about what the Sunnis say. We are not addressing the Sunnis. We are at a Bahai forum and speaking to Bahais.

4. Apart from your own personal judgement about accepting Bahaullah, there is no other proof for Bahaullah to be One Whom Allah will Manifest.

4. Apart from your own personal judgement about accepting Bahaullah, there is no other proof for Bahaullah to be One Whom Allah will Manifest.

"WHEN the Day-Star of Bahá will shine resplendent above the horizon of eternity it is incumbent upon you to present yourselves before His Throne. Beware lest ye be seated in His presence or ask questions without His leave. Fear ye God, O concourse of the Mirrors. "
-The Bab (SWB 217)

And the Earth will shine with the Glory of its Lord: the Record (of Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be wronged (in the least).
Quran 39:69
(Yusuf Ali)

Argos wrote:
Quote:
4. Apart from your own personal judgement about accepting Bahaullah, there is no other proof for Bahaullah to be One Whom Allah will Manifest.

"WHEN the Day-Star of Bahá will shine resplendent above the horizon of eternity it is incumbent upon you to present yourselves before His Throne. Beware lest ye be seated in His presence or ask questions without His leave. Fear ye God, O concourse of the Mirrors. "
-The Bab (SWB 217)

And the Earth will shine with the Glory of its Lord: the Record (of Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be wronged (in the least).
Quran 39:69
(Yusuf Ali)

Again, you have indulged in a favourite Bahai pass time of interpreting the Quran as you feel fit. The verse you have quoted is about the Day of Judgement when every persons record will be opened, witnesses will be brought forth for the action which men have done and justice will be done. No person will be wronged.

I dont say this - the prophet and the Holy Imams say so.

If I have to look at the verse differently, I would say that under no circumstances does the verse fit Bahaullah -

1. No person's scroll of deeds, least of all mine and yours has been opened. Not as yet atleast. And none that I am aware of in the past 140 years since the arrival of Bahaullah.

2. The verse says that "they" will not be wronged. Since the start of the Babi and the Bahai Faith - I have not seen any era when the Babis and the Bahais have not claimed to be persecuted. Even today after 150 years of Bahaullah, Bahais claim to be wronged.

3. Who pronounced the just decision - you, me or Bahaullah? Or the Bab?

Stop fooling around with the verses of Quran. You forget that the Quran was revealed in Arabic. Forget about reading the Quran - just pick up an Arabic lexicon and see the depth of the language. You want to tell me that you understood the entire verse and it deep meaning with one ordinary translation?

Secondly, can you tell me the reference from which writing of the Bab was the quotation taken. Please let me know the name of the original book, the place when the verse was revealed and in which language - Arabic or Persian. Please let me know what the Bab was doing and under what circumstances the verse was revealed.

Dont be surprised about the above questions of the Bab. I can tell you all the above for each and every verse of the Quran.

iamimranshaykh wrote:1. No person's scroll of deeds, least of all mine and yours has been opened. Not as yet atleast.

Aren't the deeds of those who oppose Baha'u'llah clearely manifest to us all? In this life, we are judged, and in the next life, we will be Judged—

Baha'u'llah:

"O YE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD! Know verily that an unforeseen calamity is following you and that grievous retribution awaiteth you. Think not the deeds ye have committed have been blotted from My sight. By My beauty! All your doings hath My pen graven with open characters upon tablets of chrysolite."

"O HEEDLESS ONES! Think not the secrets of hearts are hidden, nay, know ye of a certainty that in clear characters they are engraved and openly manifest in the holy Presence."

"O FRIENDS! Verily I say, whatsoever ye have concealed within your hearts is to Us open and manifest as the day; but that it is hidden is of Our grace and favour, and not of your deserving."

iamimranshaykh wrote:Stop fooling around with the verses of Quran. You forget that the Quran was revealed in Arabic. Forget about reading the Quran - just pick up an Arabic lexicon and see the depth of the language. You want to tell me that you understood the entire verse and it deep meaning with one ordinary translation?

There are people on this forum who know Arabic, and I personally know people who are very fluent in it. If you have any concerns about a specific verse, then tell us what your concern is specifically. Don't forget that the Baha'u'llah revealed Tablets in Arabic.

iamimranshaykh wrote:1. No person's scroll of deeds, least of all mine and yours has been opened. Not as yet atleast.

Aren't the deeds of those who oppose Baha'u'llah clearely manifest to us all? In this life, we are judged, and in the next life, we will be Judged—

Not at all. I dont think so. Nobody's deeds are manifest.

Baha'u'llah:

"O YE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD! Know verily that an unforeseen calamity is following you and that grievous retribution awaiteth you. Think not the deeds ye have committed have been blotted from My sight. By My beauty! All your doings hath My pen graven with open characters upon tablets of chrysolite."

"O HEEDLESS ONES! Think not the secrets of hearts are hidden, nay, know ye of a certainty that in clear characters they are engraved and openly manifest in the holy Presence."

"O FRIENDS! Verily I say, whatsoever ye have concealed within your hearts is to Us open and manifest as the day; but that it is hidden is of Our grace and favour, and not of your deserving."

iamimranshaykh wrote:Stop fooling around with the verses of Quran. You forget that the Quran was revealed in Arabic. Forget about reading the Quran - just pick up an Arabic lexicon and see the depth of the language. You want to tell me that you understood the entire verse and it deep meaning with one ordinary translation?

There are people on this forum who know Arabic, and I personally know people who are very fluent in it. If you have any concerns about a specific verse, then tell us what your concern is specifically. Don't forget that the Baha'u'llah revealed Tablets in Arabic.

Good then read the traditions of the prophet about every verse and also tell us what the prophet said about it. That will lend credence to your claim that bahaullah succeeded the Prophet Mohammed. If you or your firends can read Arabic, it should become clear to you that the verse which you have quoted is about the day of judgement.

Secondly, you did not respond to all my points. Especially about the one wherein no person will be misjudged or wronged. Bahais make bahaullah as a martyr - he apparently was wronged. So obviously even if I take your version of the interpretation of the verse, it does not fit Bahaullah.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Secondly, you did not respond to all my points. Especially about the one wherein no person will be misjudged or wronged. Bahais make bahaullah as a martyr - he apparently was wronged. So obviously even if I take your version of the interpretation of the verse, it does not fit Bahaullah.

Baha'i Warrior wrote:I suggest you read about His life. He was very much persecuted.

BW, i think the point that Imran is actually making is the fact the verse states they will not be wronged however Bahaullah and the Bahais were "wronged".

Here is Imran's post again:

iamimranshaykh wrote:The verse says that "they" will not be wronged. Since the start of the Babi and the Bahai Faith - I have not seen any era when the Babis and the Bahais have not claimed to be persecuted. Even today after 150 years of Bahaullah, Bahais claim to be wronged.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Secondly, you did not respond to all my points. Especially about the one wherein no person will be misjudged or wronged. Bahais make bahaullah as a martyr - he apparently was wronged. So obviously even if I take your version of the interpretation of the verse, it does not fit Bahaullah.

I suggest you read about His life. He was very much persecuted.

—BW

Sure, I have read his life and while I have my own views about it, I agree that the Bahais claim that he was persecuted. Nothing wrong with the claim except that it does not then fit the verse which you have quoted. You seem to be missing the point.

Baha'i Warrior wrote:I suggest you read about His life. He was very much persecuted.

BW, i think the point that Imran is actually making is the fact the verse states they will not be wronged however Bahaullah and the Bahais were "wronged".

Here is Imran's post again:

iamimranshaykh wrote:The verse says that "they" will not be wronged. Since the start of the Babi and the Bahai Faith - I have not seen any era when the Babis and the Bahais have not claimed to be persecuted. Even today after 150 years of Bahaullah, Bahais claim to be wronged.

Correct me if im wrong.

RegardsAbbas

I think he might be misunderstanding the verse. Humans are judged, not God's infallible Agents (Prophets, Messengers, etc.).

Here's a better translation:

Mohsin Khan translation (39:69): "And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged."

Why would Prophets be judged? That doesn't make sense to me. They are the ones Who judge, not Who are judged. Men are fallible and thus capable of doing evil, not Prophets.

Hope that clarifies things...

—BW

P.S.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Sure, I have read his life and while I have my own views about it, I agree that the Bahais claim that he was persecuted. Nothing wrong with the claim except that it does not then fit the verse which you have quoted. You seem to be missing the point.

Mohsin Khan translation (39:69): "And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged."

Why would Prophets be judged? That doesn't make sense to me. They are the ones Who judge, not Who are judged. Men are fallible and thus capable of doing evil, not Prophets.

Hope that clarifies things...

You say that it is a "better" translation - on what grounds? You seem to be missing the point that we do not rely on our personal judgements on the Quran. We rely on the interpretation provided by the Prophet and the Imams to understand the Word of Allah.

Secondly, you seem to have been diverted from the original point of the Bab being the Mahdi. I too am guilty of the offence of allowing you to divert. please revert back to how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam.

iamimranshaykh wrote:You say that it is a "better" translation - on what grounds? You seem to be missing the point that we do not rely on our personal judgements on the Quran. We rely on the interpretation provided by the Prophet and the Imams to understand the Word of Allah.

Doesn't matter, when looking at either translation one will see that the Prophets are not the ones Who will be judged—that just doesn't make sense, to Muslims or to Baha'is. That is totally irrational to contend that God's chosen Messengers and Prophets will be "judged"—they are God's Vessels...will He judge His own Words? No, obviously not.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Secondly, you seem to have been diverted from the original point of the Bab being the Mahdi. I too am guilty of the offence of allowing you to divert. please revert back to how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam.

There were no miraculous events—well, there was His martyrdom (and others), but our Faith does not attach importance to miracles. However, the true miracle was the Bab's own Words, as in Islam the true miracle was the words contained in the holy Qur'an—whose style none could match (except, that is, another Prophet of God). Indeed, without it, what proof did Muhammad have that He was a Prophet of God? It comes down to this, and it always has been this way, and always will be: does one hear the Voice of God in the Prophet's (e.g. the Bab's) Words? If yes, then one should believe He is the Promised One. If "no," then there are two possible explanations: (1) He was not sent by God, and is an infidel, or (2) the person reading the Bab's Words has closed his mind, his heart, and his soul to these divine words (or God has closed his mind, heart, and soul), and these holy Words have an effect on him as much as they do on a rock. "And, if we pleased, we would surely put out their eyes: yet even then would they speed on with rivalry in their path: but how should they see?" (Ya. Sin)

iamimranshaykh wrote:You say that it is a "better" translation - on what grounds? You seem to be missing the point that we do not rely on our personal judgements on the Quran. We rely on the interpretation provided by the Prophet and the Imams to understand the Word of Allah.

Doesn't matter, when looking at either translation one will see that the Prophets are not the ones Who will be judged—that just doesn't make sense, to Muslims or to Baha'is. That is totally irrational to contend that God's chosen Messengers and Prophets will be "judged"—they are God's Vessels...will He judge His own Words? No, obviously not.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Secondly, you seem to have been diverted from the original point of the Bab being the Mahdi. I too am guilty of the offence of allowing you to divert. please revert back to how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam.

There were no miraculous events—well, there was His martyrdom (and others), but our Faith does not attach importance to miracles. However, the true miracle was the Bab's own Words, as in Islam the true miracle was the words contained in the holy Qur'an—whose style none could match (except, that is, another Prophet of God). Indeed, without it, what proof did Muhammad have that He was a Prophet of God? It comes down to this, and it always has been this way, and always will be: does one hear the Voice of God in the Prophet's (e.g. the Bab's) Words? If yes, then one should believe He is the Promised One. If "no," then there are two possible explanations: (1) He was not sent by God, and is an infidel, or (2) the person reading the Bab's Words has closed his mind, his heart, and his soul to these divine words (or God has closed his mind, heart, and soul), and these holy Words have an effect on him as much as they do on a rock. "And, if we pleased, we would surely put out their eyes: yet even then would they speed on with rivalry in their path: but how should they see?" (Ya. Sin)

Dear BW:

You have missed the point again. We are not referring to translations. We are referring to the words of Allah in the light of the traditions of the prophet and the Imams who followed him. Check out the exegesis of the verse which you have quoted - rather any verse - from any aspect - we have exegesis from a literary point of view, from a hiistorical point of view, from a traditoinalist point of view. From no angle does this verse match what you are trying to say.

As regards the Bab, you have once again come to the Prophet - our topic is on establishing whether the Bab is the "promised" Mahdi and not whether the Prophet was the true prophet or not. The latter is beyond question. Muslims and Bahais alike accept the prophet (even though the Bahais do not accept him as the last prophet). If we want to discuss the prophethood and the sanctity of his prophethood vis a vis the Christians, we must talk to christians about that, and not to a Bahai.

The Mahdi was "promised" He just did not come just like that. So when we are evaluating the Bab, we have to see what Islam said about the Mahdi and see whether the Bab fits that or not. And then we also have to consider what to make of the multiple times that the Bab said that he was NOT the Mahdi. We are not even talking miracles here. We have not entered the realm of miracles here.

As regards the writings of the Bab, it is a tall claim from a Bahai that people should evaluate his writings as his miracle for the Bahais themselves claim that the writings of the Bab are lost. Funny that Allah chose to keep the miracle of the Prophet - The Quran alive and protected for 1,400 years and the Bab's miracle is lost in less than 100?

So lets talk about how the Bab was the Mahdi of Islam.

His writings are lost (as per the Bahais - in fact everybody seems to have access to his writings except for the Bahais themselves). If you say otherwise, please explian the words of the Bab in Sahifae Adaliyah, Qayyamul Asma, Tafseere Surah Kausar and Dalaelus Sabah when he clearly, unambigiously and unequivocally says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi and not he.

I just wanted to apologize sincerely for not having responded to your earlier response to me. I have been busy and tied up recently, but God willing, I may be able to participate at a later date. I appreciate your patience and ask your forgiveness.

Some of the Bab's Writings have been changed, but there is more than enough of His Writings that we know are authentic. Here it is: http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/index/albab.htm. If you can't read the language then I suggest learning Arabic (or Persian), until this stuff is translated. Again, our priority now is Baha'u'llah, who the Bab said was much more important than Himself.

Many Hadiths were readily available about the [[al-Qaim Ali Muhammad]], which include: In [[al-Kafi]], [[Abdullah ibn Abd al-Muttalib]] tells of the Qaim and the resurrection of the dead whose signs can be seen in the arising of the Babi community: "when our al-Qaim will rise, Allah will raise a people of our followers... a group of our followers who will be living will say, "So and so is raised from their graves and they are with al-Qaim." The news will reach our enemies who will say, "O the community of Shiah, what kind of liars you are! You speak lies. It is your government and you speak lies. No, by Allah they did not live and will not live until the Day of Judgment." Allah has quoted them saying, "...they swear in all earnestness that Allah will not raise again those who die. This is a true promise but most people do not know."" Also, [[Jafar al-Sadiq]] said that 'You will not see the one for whom you are waiting, until you become like al-Muwat (dead) goat who is not a matter of any kind of worry for the lion.... you will not have any high position to rise or supporter to seek support thereby.' This is exactly what the Babis had to do to believe in the Bab. They had to give up any position in society and become condemned by their countrymen. Moreover, [[Ali ibn al-Husayn]] said the Qaim would not appear unless 'his condition will be like that of a bird fying from the nest before its wings are able to lift it in the air. Therefore the children (predators) pick it up and play with it.' This was exactly what happened as more than 20,000 Babis were killed by the leaders and countrymen of Persia.

In Hadith #14777 of Al-Kafi (Volume 8 ) it states: "When our Qaim will rise, Allah will extend the hearing and seeing (powers) of our Shiah, thus, they will not need a postal system." This could be seen in the telegraph message which occurred the same day that the Bab declared His mission to Mulla Husayn (May 23rd, 1844).

In Hadith 14698 of Al-Kafi (volume 8 ) it states in regards to the Quranic verses 17:4-6:""...it was a promise that must come true." [It is a reference to reappearance of al-Mahdi with divine authority and power] "...then We will turn your chance against them." It is a reference to the coming of al-Husayn. He will come with 70 people of his companions all in white golden protective helmets. They will come with two faces to show that he is al-Husayn ibn Ali who has come so that no believing one will doubt. That he is not Dajjal or Satan, when Qa'im is with them. When recognition will become verified in the hearts of the believing people that he is al-Husayn, death will approach al-Qa'im. He al-Husayn ibn Ali will be the one to undertake his Ghusal (bath), shroud, Hunut, and placing him in his grave; no Executor of the Will is succeeded except by another Executor of the Will."

Also, in Volume 8 of Al-Kafi: "We had given the book to Musa, then they created differences in it." (11:110) 'They created differences among themselves as this nation has done in the book. They will create such differences in the book which al-Qa'im will bring to them until a great number of people refuse to accept it, after he will present it before them. Then their necks will be struck down."

(42:21) "was it not because of the definitive word He would have settled it among them. The unjust ones will suffer a painful punishment." 'Had it not been because of what Allah... has said about them, al-Qa'im would not leave anyone of them alive.'

(70:26) "Those who acknowledge the coming of the day of recompense" 'It is when al-Qa'im will reappear with divine authority and power.'

(17:81) "Truth has come and falsehood is banished" 'When al-Qa'im will reappear with divine authority and power the government of falsehood will be banished.'

In reference to the 313 Babis who gathered during the time of the Bab, and perhaps a reason for the small number of Bahais today: al-Kafi volume 8, #14935: "(2:148) the words of Allah "...wherever you are Allah will bring you all together" is a reference to the army of al-Qa'im who number three hundred and ten and something.... They, by Allah are the people of limited number. They come together, by Allah, within one hour like the pieces of the cloud in a fall day."

This is also a reference to the message of unity in the Bahai Faith and how fast it has encompassed the world compared to religions of the past.

Hadith #14999 of al-Kafi volume 8 also speaks of the time of al-Qa'im, but I think it states what kind of mindset we must be in to accept the Qa'im:There was a boy who needed advice from a man to know what to tell the king on three occasions. First, he told the king that his dream was of the time of the wolf, but the money the king gave him was not shared with the man of knowledge - just the boy. Then, the king called on the boy again and he again sought the man's knowledge. This time the boy relayed to the king his dream was of the time of the ram. He thought to share his money the king gave him with the man of knowledge, but he didn't. Then the king later called on him again. The boy asked the man for knowledge and again relayed to the king that his dream was of the time of balance. They boy then shared his reward with the man, but the man refused it saying: the first time was the wolf because you were not going to share with me, the second time you thought to share but did not, which is like a ram, the third time you did share which was the balance, but you can keep it.