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I feel like 5 would be a good starting number of character slots, because it allows 1 for each Classification (minus Commander, but an additional slot could be added when Commander is launched), or 1 of each Primary Powerset from the same Classification if you're the type of person who "only plays ___."

On the other hand, you get 8 character slots starting in ESO (or at least I did back before it went f2p), and I often find myself wanting to roll a new character, but not willing to delete an existing one cause I've long since passed the point of using them all up (and simply don't have the money or desire to pay for another one).

That is to be determined, based on feedback collected during playtesting.
Too few, it is a disincentive to make more characters. Too many, a disincentive to level up. So, we need to strike the right balance.

Idk if I agree with the second part: people still want many powerful characters, the incentive to level up comes from the fun of high level powersets ;)

3 is the magic number. Then allow 1 to be unlocked via maxing level and 1 to be purchased via cash shop. Thus totaling 5 which like OathBoundOne said, you could then have 1 of every type. That should be enough for a little while until it can be expanded later on.

—

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

I would point out that I was saying 5 as the starting point, and frankly feel like that's a very lowball number.

Didn't CoH eventually end up with the possibility of like 32 or 36 characters per server? I remember that it was a LOT, and many people had their rosters maxed out on multiple servers. CoT will only have 1 server.

I myself had I think 22 characters on my home server. I don't feel like a maximum anywhere in the single digits would be even remotely satisfactory for many. Even with being able to use multiple builds with any secondary Specifications, 5 Classifications with 5 Primery Powerset choices still leaves 25possible unique permutations (not even getting into Commanders, or new powersets beign added) and there WILL be people who want 1 of each.

I know what you were saying, I was saying my own thing but adding a point which you had mentioned. I feel like giving a few at the start is more than acceptable, because we will be more inclined to stick with our first character for a bit and get to know the area and how the game works to start off with. And if one chooses they can try a bit of alting. I do think eventually it should expand to a ton of alt options. But as far as when the game comes out, I don't think we will need 36 slots. I have alt-itis just like the next person but I'd like to start off slow and then be surprised and exited when slots get added and such.

—

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

Considering the varied options we will have I think 5 is a good starting point. And I'm sure that OathboundOne didn't mean to suggest that they start with 32, but rather that it would possibly be the total max.

Also limiting it to 5 max total in the beginning, especially since max-level slot unlocks won't be available until they release level 50 content, would be idiotic imo. I'd say 10, maybe even 20, would be a better "launch max" since it gives us a large enough room to feel around between the AT's and power sets without too large of a "turn over" in characters.

Start with 8-10 have the upper limit be I don't know, whatever your computer can handle, I think they're stored locally, right? But if someone wants to buy 2000 character slots who are we to stop them?

Start with 8-10 have the upper limit be I don't know, whatever your computer can handle, I think they're stored locally, right? But if someone wants to buy 2000 character slots who are we to stop them?

No, only the active one would be "stored" (for a very very loose definition of "stored") locally, the rest are stored centrally so they wouldn't disappear if you wiped the computer nor having to recreate them if you logged in from somewhere else. Also anything that is primarily stored locally has a huge abuse/cheat potential.

3 is the magic number. Then allow 1 to be unlocked via maxing level and 1 to be purchased via cash shop. Thus totaling 5 which like OathBoundOne said, you could then have 1 of every type. That should be enough for a little while until it can be expanded later on.

While everyone here's trying to guess at what number of chracters slots they are going to start us of with let's at least work with the facts we do have.

Very recently (like a couple of weeks ago) in another thread Doctor Tyche already confirmed how the "getting new character slots for hitting the level cap" thing will work. He said that we will get a new slot each time we max out a character no matter what the current level cap is. This means this'll work when the game first launches (and the temp cap is 30) and it'll work when the cap is (presumably) at 40 and then finally 50. So basically we're always going to get a new character slot each time we max out an old one.

You need to factor that into any "guess" you want to make about starting character slots.

Project_Hero wrote:

But if someone wants to buy 2000 character slots who are we to stop them?

As blacke4dawn said our main character data will likely be stored "server-side" for backup/security purposes.

Now there's been no specific word on the max number of slots we'll have but based on how Doctor Tyche responded in that other thread I mentioned we could theoretically have hundreds of slots available in the long run. This makes sense because disk space is now cheap as ever and character data don't take that much room to store.

In GW2, they give you 5 slots, and you don't get any more for leveling to the cap. In that game, you need like at least 1 of them just to use as a mule for added storage of the many crafting materials and other stuff they drop on you, much of which is account bound and cannot be easily replaced later if you delete it. As such, you end up having tons of slots devoted to the odd singleton object that you got months ago from a thing that you don't even know what it actually does.

If I could have gotten free slots from just leveling up toons in that game, I think I would not have needed more than 1 at start-up. If the deal is that you can always get a new slot by leveling up a guy, I don't think it's really necessary to give people more than one slot when they buy the game. I know some people like to play a bunch of toons in parallel, I'm not really one of them, so you'd have to ask them about their feelings about this.

As for subscribers and non-subs, you have to remember that people can let their subs lapse. Also, I think a lot of games tend to give a month of free sub time here and there in various ways, so you may have some people who have no intention of subbing long-term that get a month of sub time either from buying the game, or from some other special offer. So what do you do to those extra slots that the subscriber has when the subscription lapses? Lock them out of their extra characters? I think it would be less problematic to simply charge money for new slots a la cart and leave it at that the subscribers can use their Stars to buy that if they want, or to buy other stuff, and then nobody has to be locked out of their own toons ever.

I know some people like to play a bunch of toons in parallel, I'm not really one of them, so you'd have to ask them about their feelings about this.

Project_Hero wrote:

I will need more than 5. I make alts like I make tea, frequently. And I don't tend to get super high level. I need more than 5. Much much more.

Well CoH was arguably one of the most "alt-friendly" games ever created so one has to assume CoT will be as well. So even regardless of the "get a new slot every time you max out a character" deal I think we really need to start out with at least 4-6 slots as a bare minimum, especially considering we are all going to be playing on one single "mega-server" instead of getting unique slots on multiple servers.

It's been a super-long time but I think we got 8 slots per server per account back when CoH first launched. CoT really probably needs to be roughly equivalent in that regard.

Character slots are like closet space - they get filled up no matter how much there is. At least for me that's true. I easily have a half dozen or so CoH characters I intend to remake in CoT asap, and have concepts for at least that many more. None of that includes the character names I have made note of that might be worth exploring.

I will need more than 5. I make alts like I make tea, frequently. And I don't tend to get super high level. I need more than 5. Much much more.

1. As far as I know, most games start you with 3-5 slots and make you pay for more. CoT is apparently talking about allowing unlimited free slots (possibly upto a maximum of like 32 or 64 per account), and all you have to do is get one toon to the level cap to unlock the next slot, if I'm reading that right.

2. Being such an alt-o-holic, one might think you'd be willing to pay Stars (acquired via spending real money) for the added slots. Be honest, if you love your alts so much, wouldn't you buy slots if you had to?

3. In the last 2 years of CoX, you could get a toon from start to 50 in like 2 weeks, tops.

4. Given 1-3, isn't it a BETTER option to just use the free level-cap slots as you level toons up to the cap than to pay for them? That's unlimited (well, you might be capped at like 32 or 64 total toons, for logistical purposes I suppose) free slots. How can you seriously try to argue for a better deal than that? I mean, I understand that getting as many slots as you want for free just for buying the game is the BEST possible option, but you have to concede that the game company has to make money SOMEHOW, right? If you make people level up toons to get new slots, at least you're giving that purchase some reason to exist. Buy it or grind for it. I don't see how demanding it for free now should be a thing that the devs would even consider, frankly.

5. If anyone is going to make an argument that starting with one toon slot and then "get a toon to the cap, get free new slot, up to a maximum of like 64 slots per account" all by itself is somehow not good enough for us the players, then if I were a dev hearing that idea in a business meeting, I would want you to explain to me how that revenue would be made up for in other areas. You can't just dictate "I call no charging for X" then drop the mic and walk away. You have to defend that proposal by replacing the revenue potential from sales of slots with something else that you claim you WILL pay about as much for. Games cost money to maintain, so a company needs to find ways to earn at least the overhead costs of running the game, somehow.

Sure I'll buy more character slots but I'll feel better about it if I was given what seems like a fair amount of them before hand. Now I dunno about you but I have over 40 character concepts just waiting to be made. I'm not asking to be able to make all of them at launch (I mean some require powersets and such that won't even be at launch).

5, in my opinion isn't enough to start with. Pretty sure most MMOs have at least 8 character slots to start with. I don't know how many CoH had but it was more than 5.

During the entire lifespan of CoX I got 1 character to level 50.
Sure I'll buy more character slots but I'll feel better about it if I was given what seems like a fair amount of them before hand. Now I dunno about you but I have over 40 character concepts just waiting to be made. I'm not asking to be able to make all of them at launch (I mean some require powersets and such that won't even be at launch).
5, in my opinion isn't enough to start with. Pretty sure most MMOs have at least 8 character slots to start with. I don't know how many CoH had but it was more than 5.

Like I said (and anybody who remembers this better than I do feel free to jump in here) I'm pretty sure CoH started with 8 character slots per server per account. This basically meant you started with roughly 12 servers x 8 per server = 96 slots.

Now since CoT is going to be run on a single "mega-server" we won't have the freedom to hop around on multiple standalone servers. Does this mean we should automatically get 96 slots to start? Probably not.

About the only reasonable assumption at this point is that we'll likely get more than one slot. Having only one would be amazingly weird/dumb. ;)

With 3 spec changes per character and a free character at level 50, combined with the free-to-play nature of the game, I see no reason why MWM would give us more than 2 character slots at the start.

Just look at all the different responses this thread has generated. That is fertile ground for the cash shop character expansion market. If I really lack the patience or impulse control to wait for my character to get to level 50, then I should have the options of giving my money to MWM as an alternative. (Edit: I self identify with this demographic, by the way)

Yes, I know that on opening day, there won't be the ability to get characters to lvl 50. So what I would expect MWM will do is give us a voucher when we hit lvl 30 instead. And each voucher would be good for one free additional character slot from the cash shop. So in effect it would make hitting lvl 30 equivalent to reaching the free slot at lvl 50.

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

People are more willing to spend money if they feel they're getting a value to begin with. 2 character slots doesn't feel like a good value. Even classic legend of Zelda games give you three. And that's not a massively customizable MMOrpg.

8-10 seems like enough. It's enough so people can make a bunch of different characters without (and this is important) having to delete said characters and then remake them as different archetypes to see what they enjoy playing. Most people will probably make a character, play around a bit, test out how it works then make another character to test out something else they might like. Giving people 2 slots means they'd do this once then have to delete their character (losing what progress they made) to try out something else.

One of the worst parts of Dragonball Xenoverse 1 was that you got 1 character untill you beat the main story. There's 5 races with differing play styles. Don't like what you made? Too bad! Lose all your character progression to make a new one. Was very irritating.

People are more willing to spend money if they feel they're getting a value to begin with. 2 character slots doesn't feel like a good value.

2 slots doesn't seem like a good value for the cost of the game download? Isn't this going to be free to play with a subscription option?

So how much would an additional character slot be worth to you? $1, $5, $10? You say that 8 characters would be "enough" and I suppose in your value judgment you define enough as satisfactory to try the game out in most of its useful permutations. So that would be 6 additional characters above the 2 that come free with the game. (in addition to the free ones you get for levelling) So if you would normally expect 8 characters for a $40 game, and since this game is going to be free with 2 characters, then it would make sense that each of the 6 additional character slots would be worth $6.66 to you. So I would suggest that the $5 per additional character slot would be a good fit for you.

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

Brand X wrote:
This is why 3 is a good number.
I'd still prefer more. Like, 6 is as low as I'd go. Enough so you can try a few concepts out without having to delete.

I still don't get the whole "delete" argument, as if more wasn't an option.

So in order to work with the statement that adding a character would require deleting an existing one, how much would it be worth to you to keep an existing character? (assuming that you don't intend to level it any time soon) Would it be worth $5 to keep an existing character in order to start a new one? Would it be worth more, or less?

Personally I think that $5 is too steep. But $2 would be right on target for a new character slot, especially if we have to purchase the game first. And I would start with 3 characters which will give me enough free playstyles to detemrine if I like the game. That would whet my appetite to either level one up to get another or pay now to get another to try out the other play styles. ...and then keep paying to experiment or use one of my free levelled slots if I have one available.

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

How don't you get the delete argument? You make a character say one with a protection primary. Then you play for 10 levels then think, hey, maybe I'd like this more as a melee primary. So you make one of those get 8 levels in and that ranged guy you teamed with seemed pretty awesome. But now you'd need to delete a character to do that... Or level up your guys a bunch to get a free slot.

With more slots this process is delayed quite a bit and you could easily lose a large amount of hours to just testing things, and then you realize you liked the like, 3rd character you liked best, but you like your other ones enough for now to keep them. Then you level up your 3rd character but then after like, 10-15 levels you get a little tired of it so for a change of pace you switch to your 2nd character again, but then something bad happens and you don't feel like playing that one any more right now,l. So you switch up and play your 5th guy cause that was kinda fun, and then who knows number 5 might end up being the first max level guy.

See. This is how I end up playing games that allow me to have more than one character. I do this kind of thing all the time on Skyrim and Dragon Ball Xenoverse, and pretty much any game that allows me. If I didn't have those options I'd be like, "well. I don't feel like playing either of my guys, and I don't really want to drop some cash on another character slot right now... So I guess I'll play something else or watch YouTube." With more slots I'm much more likely when at my limit to be like "I want to make something new, but I don't want to get rid of my characters because of the levels/time/RP they have. I guess I'll throw down some cash to get another slot." That might just be me, your mileage may vary.

How don't you get the delete argument? You make a character say one with a protection primary. Then you play for 10 levels then think, hey, maybe I'd like this more as a melee primary. So you make one of those get 8 levels in and that ranged guy you teamed with seemed pretty awesome. But now you'd need to delete a character to do that... Or level up your guys a bunch to get a free slot.
With more slots this process is delayed quite a bit and you could easily lose a large amount of hours to just testing things, and then you realize you liked the like, 3rd character you liked best, but you like your other ones enough for now to keep them. Then you level up your 3rd character but then after like, 10-15 levels you get a little tired of it so for a change of pace you switch to your 2nd character again, but then something bad happens and you don't feel like playing that one any more right now,l. So you switch up and play your 5th guy cause that was kinda fun, and then who knows number 5 might end up being the first max level guy.
See. This is how I end up playing games that allow me to have more than one character. I do this kind of thing all the time on Skyrim and Dragon Ball Xenoverse, and pretty much any game that allows me. If I didn't have those options I'd be like, "well. I don't feel like playing either of my guys, and I don't really want to drop some cash on another character slot right now... So I guess I'll play something else or watch YouTube." With more slots I'm much more likely when at my limit to be like "I want to make something new, but I don't want to get rid of my characters because of the levels/time/RP they have. I guess I'll throw down some cash to get another slot." That might just be me, your mileage may vary.

I understand all of that; but you didn't read my statement fully, did you?

Here it is again, with the part you ignored highlighted for convenience:

Quote:

I still don't get the whole "delete" argument, as if more wasn't an option.

The question becomes, again, what is your threshhold for payment? That's why I re-couched my question from "what would a new slot be worth" into "how much is an existing character worth?" because that's really what you're cogitating on, right? You're weighing the deletion of an existing character against the cost to create a new one.

If MWM makes these microtransactions as easy as one click to use your payment method on record then I predict that $2 to $3 will be the sweet spot just below where MOST people have their threshold. I think $5 would be expensive enough to deter people from creating new characters as freely and as thoughtlessly as would support the type of experimenting you mention. So, if they charge above the threshold less people will do it and revenue drops. If they charge too little or give away too many for free, revenue generated might be below the profit margin.

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

Also don't forget you get discounted shop money for a subscription (And you get initial subscription with game purchase). If nothing but to support CoT, I plan to always have a sub so that's extra slots right there while still supporting the game.

It depends how many I start with. Something like $5 or maybe more is acceptable when I already have quite a number.

But having too few to start with is like, "Oh they don't start you with much to -make- you buy more." And that's not a good sentiment to have. You never want to feel like you're engineered into a purchase. With a starting number of slots too low I'd probably end up paying about double what the game initially cost just to get an amount I'd feel like should have been the default.

It's easier to charge more for something a player feels they might need as opposed to charging a little for something that they feel they require.

Like costume slots. I bought a bunch of those on Champions. I had like 8 or more to begin with, then you get more as you level and -then- I bought more and brought my total to like 14 or 20 or something.

For me I'm happier parting with money when I get more of the stuff I already liked about the thing to begin with. I don't feel like the game's cheating me out of money by having a tiny amount and then forcing me to buy more to realize my concept(s). "Like making characters do ya? Better fork over more cash if you want more than two!" I feel like it's more on me if they gave me a bunch already "what you've already made 6 characters and you want to make -more-? I guess I can sell you a character slot. If you think you really need it."

CoH started out with 8 per server. As far as I'm concerned, That's got to be an absolute bare minimum starting point.

CoH only had 5 ATs at the start. CoT is going to have 5 ATs, each broken into multiple flavors, and WAY more options in terms of how to build a character.

And Alt'ing has been stated as a key feature in CoT's design and planning. For many of us who play a lot of alts, that doesn't mean play one character to 50 and then play another character to 50, lather, rinse, repeat. In CoH, I had multiple characters at every level tier from the get-go to the end of the game. I took maybe a dozen to level 50 eventually, but I played characters all over the spectrum.

Heck, when I started playing CoH, I played on about 4 different servers for a while, partly to find one where I felt at home, but also to give myself more opportunities to find a character that worked for naive, inexperienced, newbie little me. If I'd had to delete all those early characters to keep trying, I might well have given up on the game.

Disc storage space is cheap. I'll be annoyed if we start with less than 8 slots, 12 would be better. And even then we'd better be able to buy a lot more, starting from day 1.

It depends how many I start with. Something like $5 or maybe more is acceptable when I already have quite a number.
But having too few to start with is like, "Oh they don't start you with much to -make- you buy more." And that's not a good sentiment to have. You never want to feel like you're engineered into a purchase. With a starting number of slots too low I'd probably end up paying about double what the game initially cost just to get an amount I'd feel like should have been the default.
It's easier to charge more for something a player feels they might need as opposed to charging a little for something that they feel they require.

Hmmm. That makes sense.

At first.

But I think no matter how many you have under your belt, we still get to the threshold issue of trying to make the next one inexpensive enough to pay for without much thought. It's the "next slot" which is what MWM has to design for, no matter how many slots you already have. And since a free slot will always be available for those who want to put forth the effort to farm experience, the justification for an expensive "next slot" just isn't there in my mind.

Relatedly, I do think that giving us extra slots in bundles of 5 or so would be a good idea, especially in the beginning when we're ineligible for the lvl 50 free slot (assuming no lvl 30 vouchers) This way, they can be a bit more expensive per slot because we don't have to make a "cost of game query" into our personal fiscal databases as often. And once we have an additional 5 slots in our account, we will be more likely to use them up than if we had to pay for each one individually.

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

I'm dumbfounded at how low some of these suggestions are.
CoH started out with 8 per server. As far as I'm concerned, That's got to be an absolute bare minimum starting point.
CoH only had 5 ATs at the start. CoT is going to have 5 ATs, each broken into multiple flavors, and WAY more options in terms of how to build a character.
And Alt'ing has been stated as a key feature in CoT's design and planning. For many of us who play a lot of alts, that doesn't mean play one character to 50 and then play another character to 50, lather, rinse, repeat. In CoH, I had multiple characters at every level tier from the get-go to the end of the game. I took maybe a dozen to level 50 eventually, but I played characters all over the spectrum.
Heck, when I started playing CoH, I played on about 4 different servers for a while, partly to find one where I felt at home, but also to give myself more opportunities to find a character that worked for naive, inexperienced, newbie little me. If I'd had to delete all those early characters to keep trying, I might well have given up on the game.
Disc storage space is cheap. I'll be annoyed if we start with less than 8 slots, 12 would be better. And even then we'd better be able to buy a lot more, starting from day 1.

CoH was subscription based.

CoT is F2P based.

The idea of 1 for every AT may be the way to go, and that would mean like 5.

However, with the idea that you get a free one for hitting max level, seems like a reason to go less.

Yes, I know that on opening day, there won't be the ability to get characters to lvl 50. So what I would expect MWM will do is give us a voucher when we hit lvl 30 instead. And each voucher would be good for one free additional character slot from the cash shop. So in effect it would make hitting lvl 30 equivalent to reaching the free slot at lvl 50.

The "get a free character slot once you hit the level cap" deal will be working no matter what the current level cap is at the moment. That means while the cap is 30 you'll get a free slot when you get a character to 30. Same for when the cap is presumably at 40 and 50 as well. The trick of course is that when a maxed out character "triggers" the award of a new slot it'll only do it once - this means if you use a given character to get a free slot when the cap is 30 it won't work again once you get it to 50.

Geveo wrote:

I'm dumbfounded at how low some of these suggestions are.

I am too. As I pointed out in an earlier post our starting CoH accounts gave us almost 100 character slots per account from the very beginning. I don't really see why people are bothering to argue over 3 or 4 slots in light of that fact. *shrugs*

Now again do I seriously think we'll get 96 or more slots on Day One of CoT? Probably not. But I'd say the odds of getting more than a very tiny handful are pretty good.

I wouldn't count that as giving so many slots, when it was on multiple servers. Even when I started out, I didn't think "Yeah! Play on ALL the servers." Even hearing the stories of people making many characters on all the servers, they generally speak of only really playing on one server.

However, let's go with the idea Lothic, that CoH gave all those slots.

Well then, 8 slots (and wasn't it less at the start?) per server would still leave us at 8 slots for CoT which has one server.

Not to mention, those of us mentioning less slots, may also be considering that the game needs some way to get cash flow and character slots is a good way to do it.

I wouldn't count that as giving so many slots, when it was on multiple servers. Even when I started out, I didn't think "Yeah! Play on ALL the servers." Even hearing the stories of people making many characters on all the servers, they generally speak of only really playing on one server.
However, let's go with the idea Lothic, that CoH gave all those slots.
Well then, 8 slots (and wasn't it less at the start?) per server would still leave us at 8 slots for CoT which has one server.
Not to mention, those of us mentioning less slots, may also be considering that the game needs some way to get cash flow and character slots is a good way to do it.

Right... obviously my "96" number was based on all the individual servers (at least 12 to begin with) that existed in CoH. That's why I've said (several times) that I doubt we'd start with 96 slots on CoT's one single mega-server.

But by the same token if we assume that at least some people regularly played on multiple servers in CoH then they were accustomed to having perhaps 2 or 3 dozen character slots to work with by default (again assuming the original 8 per server estimate).

So it really doesn't seem that incredibly impossible to speculate that just based on the original CoH numbers alone we could get say something in the neighborhood of 12, 16 or even 20 slots to begin with. Remember those numbers are still EXTREME REDUCTIONS compared to the number of slots we were given per account by default at the beginning of CoH.

I'm okay at 8 with the idea of more at max. But that does still seem low compared to the playstyle of many MANY CoH players. I had a few characters 40+ and then 40?ish alts in the 20s. During the first two years of CoH I never got a max character because of the level grind that was initially in the game. So Alts were more fun.

I think people have different playstyle and catering to many sides of the player base is a strong move.

So while I personally am okay with 8, I feel so 15 ish is probably a better number before purchase for a larger portion portion of people.

I know what you were saying, I was saying my own thing but adding a point which you had mentioned. I feel like giving a few at the start is more than acceptable, because we will be more inclined to stick with our first character for a bit and get to know the area and how the game works to start off with. And if one chooses they can try a bit of alting. I do think eventually it should expand to a ton of alt options. But as far as when the game comes out, I don't think we will need 36 slots. I have alt-itis just like the next person but I'd like to start off slow and then be surprised and exited when slots get added and such.

Radiac wrote:

If I could have gotten free slots from just leveling up toons in that game, I think I would not have needed more than 1 at start-up. If the deal is that you can always get a new slot by leveling up a guy, I don't think it's really necessary to give people more than one slot when they buy the game. I know some people like to play a bunch of toons in parallel, I'm not really one of them, so you'd have to ask them about their feelings about this.

I've basically always done the opposite of what you guys are describing. I inevitably start off by making a large variety of characters to get a feel for what I like to play, then if one of those really catches my interest I'll focus on it.

I've never made one, leveled it, then made a second. Ever. My first characters rarely ever even get to max level, and that's assuming I don't delete it outright so that I can try something else.

Dark Ether wrote:

Character slots are like closet space - they get filled up no matter how much there is. At least for me that's true. I easily have a half dozen or so CoH characters I intend to remake in CoT asap, and have concepts for at least that many more. None of that includes the character names I have made note of that might be worth exploring.

Ironically, my closet is virtually empty. (Because I'm honestly too lazy to bother putting my clothes away. They tend to just stay in the laundry bin until I wear them, then they go in the laundry pile till I wash them.) =P

Now, I'm not expecting so many in CoT, but I Don't want to be in a position of not being able to try out my new character idea, just because I already have a dozen that I already like too much to delete. A low number of character slots may be conducive to 'finishing' a character, but not so great for trying out new things.

At the end of CoH, I had multiples of every AT except Stalker. I tried Many different combinations of Primary/Secondary. CoT is going to have (at least) six ATs and three variations of each, plus five or more powersets in each Primary and Secondary... That's 450 combinations right there. I'm not suggesting that I'll 'have to' have one of each, but if I wanted to, I should be able to!

I have 6-7 primary characters in mind, already! I want to build them and play them, not wait until I've ground my way through 30/50 levels before I can play something else! Stop thinking Small!

The main reason I am saying the number will, or at least should be low is that we will be on one server at the start of the game. I think it would be good to give a few slots and then have a bunch of different options to get more, such as grinding for them, paying for them, using stipend points for them, being added later on, mission unlocks, etc.

There's a lot of incentive for game play and potential game income to be a bit conservative with the character slots.

—

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

I think people that enjoy alternate character will play more with an initial compliment of character slots to try out new ideas.
In the end, theyll still get revenue from later on more character slots, but ALSO costume elements/auras etc as players make new characters and want to buy the specialized pieces for them.

Again, I know I want to try out a lot of ideas before committing a huge amount of gameplay, without having to just delete the costume and progress I made.

I guarantee they will loose customer base if they start with too small a pool, as making and trying alts was what made CoH for a lot of people.

People have been throwing around "but MWM needs to make money" on this thread like buying character slots is going to make up the bulk of their revenue. When, more likely, the subscriptions will make up the lion's share and cash shop purchases (characters, costumes, animations, other things) will likely be a smaller secondary source.

Why does "something" have to mean "everything". Why can't something make them a bit of money without being escalated into "being their only source of income"? It is a pretty good way of making money for the game, that's all. No one on here said it will be their main source of income.

I'm not saying lock it in at a small number forever, I'm just saying that having it grow/scale along with the game could work well with the F2P game model to get a bit extra cash flow along the way.

—

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

I am of the same mind as a lot of you. I tend to make more alts and in CoX I only raised a couple to max level. But just because I also expect to have several dozen characters by the end of my first year playing does not mean that I think they should all be free.

I still think having only three free character slots (not including the free slots we get from leveling) is the way to go for this free to play game. Subscribers would get stars equivalent to about 1 free slot per week or something like that, which they can use on other things like costume unlocks or other perks if they wish.

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

Hmmm... howabout subs get 2 or 3 more slots than the F2P players. Makes sense to me. So say F2P starts with 3 so subs get 6. Should solve all the problems. This way its an incentive to subscribe to the game right off the bat. Just my two cents. YMMV.

Hmmm... howabout subs get 2 or 3 more slots than the F2P players. Makes sense to me. So say F2P starts with 3 so subs get 6. Should solve all the problems. This way its an incentive to subscribe to the game right off the bat. Just my two cents. YMMV.

That runs into the same problem that Champions freeform slots has. What happens when your sub runs out? Do you get locked out of those characters? And seeing as when you purchase the game you'll automatically get a bit of sub time (to entice folks into subbing more) then that becomes more problematic.

KnightMask wrote:
Hmmm... howabout subs get 2 or 3 more slots than the F2P players. Makes sense to me. So say F2P starts with 3 so subs get 6. Should solve all the problems. This way its an incentive to subscribe to the game right off the bat. Just my two cents. YMMV.
That runs into the same problem that Champions freeform slots has. What happens when your sub runs out? Do you get locked out of those characters? And seeing as when you purchase the game you'll automatically get a bit of sub time (to entice folks into subbing more) then that becomes more problematic.

They can do it like CoX did. If you ever subscribed then what you had when you subscribed would still be available if you went F2P. So If I sub for a few months then I would still have access to whatever toons I have created at that point. If I have only used 5 of my 6 slots then I could still access them but not the 6th that was never used. If I ever bought a char slot then I would still have access to those as well. This seems an elegant solution to the issue to me but obviously their are other opinions out there.

Hmmm... howabout subs get 2 or 3 more slots than the F2P players. Makes sense to me. So say F2P starts with 3 so subs get 6. Should solve all the problems. This way its an incentive to subscribe to the game right off the bat. Just my two cents. YMMV.

That runs into the same problem that Champions freeform slots has. What happens when your sub runs out? Do you get locked out of those characters? And seeing as when you purchase the game you'll automatically get a bit of sub time (to entice folks into subbing more) then that becomes more problematic.

Yes that is a problem though they have stated that in such situation they will not remove access to what players have earned. That I have interpreted as that if we gain extra things (like character slots, inv space, costume packs) with a sub and then loose access to them if the sub laps then we can still use all the existing one, having temporary "permission" for those alone. So for character slots we would need to by more slots, delete, or a combo of both so that we get "under" our non-sub level of max allowed before we could add an new ones but we could still use all the existing ones.

However I would advocate that they don't include such things with subs since it makes life for most of us so much easier, especially considering that all with start out with a months sub and thus it's more likely the subsequent loss of those perks will be viewed as a penalty for not subbing rather than a bonus for subbing. Our stipend with the sub should be enough to cover that need.

Some folks keep saying that the "you get a free slot when a character hits max level" is a reason to keep the initial slot count low.
Remember though, that it isn't an "extra" slot so much as a "replacement" slot. Few people are willing to delete a level 50 character just to free up slots.

From where did you get that idea, Soulwind?

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

Some folks keep saying that the "you get a free slot when a character hits max level" is a reason to keep the initial slot count low.
Remember though, that it isn't an "extra" slot so much as a "replacement" slot. Few people are willing to delete a level 50 character just to free up slots.

From where did you get that idea, Soulwind?

If _I_ go through all the work to raise a character to max level, I'm not going to delete them for anything!

People have been throwing around "but MWM needs to make money" on this thread like buying character slots is going to make up the bulk of their revenue. When, more likely, the subscriptions will make up the lion's share and cash shop purchases (characters, costumes, animations, other things) will likely be a smaller secondary source.

TOR said the cash made it more money than subs ever did.

So has other games. People see "Pay 15 a month for a game? That sucks!" but make a game where you have to pay 5 dollars a week on the cash shop and people for some reason, don't see how the sub was the better deal. :p

It's like the same reason people will go to the store with more expensive clothes but it says they're 50% off but not go to the store that has the exact same clothes and just out right cheaper than the other store with a 50% off sale.

So, I'm just not sure, subscription will be the way CoT makes most of it's money.

ToR also has it set up that you can buy most of the subscription bonuses in their store so after you subscribe for long enough you no longer need to.
Oh and they have random loot boxes which is more or less gambling so they get money from people who are easily addicted to such things.
So those two things could be contributing factors.
But yes, a cash shop is where a good chunk of revenue will come from but probably not the sale of character slots specifically... Which is what I said.

The inverse of that was that SWTOR's f2p limitations were SO draconian (at base) that you basically HAD to spend a bunch of money in the cash shop just to get to the same level as the vanilla game was pre-f2p.

I never let me sub lapse when I played SWTOR because the differences were so night and day it was outright off-putting. That's one of the reasons why I don't play anymore, even though I could still log into (a couple of) my characters. It's flat out not worth it to run face first into paywall after paywall reminding me of what I DON'T have access to anymore.

UGH! Just UGH. SWTOR has got to have some of the most ridiculous looking helmets in the history of MMOs.

I mean, I had the entire Covert Energy armor set unlocked via my Legacy, so I could have a character running around in literally their underwear, but since there's no Covert headpiece because the hide helmet toggle already existed, they'd still HAVE to wear whatever stupid hat they had unless I paid to hide it.

EDIT: Huh. Just out of curiosity I was looking at the recent SWTOR news over at Dulfy.net and saw in the recent patch notes that they increased their maximum number of character slots to 100. Perhaps more relevant to this thread, they increased the number of base characters slots for Free-to-play from 2 to 4, for Premium (those people with past subscriptions) from 6 to 12, and for Subscribers from 12 to 24.

1. Starting slots is not the same as maximum allowed slots. Even if you're a total cheapskate or don't have the ability to pay for more slots, like some teenagers, you can still play a toon up to the cap in order to unlock a slot, up to a maximum of maybe 128 slots for all we know. Some people sound like the starting slots is the end of the story, it's not.

2. People keep comparing this to what they had in CoX. This game is not CoX, the rules will be different. If getting a toon to the cap unlocks a new slot, people who claim they never got a single toon to 50 in CoX (because that game did not give them sufficient reason to do so) might be more inclined to level their toons more in CoT. I don't think anyone ever played their alts because they flatly refused to get to the cap with any toon, like they were actively avoiding it.

3. CoX was a sub-to-play game with no cash shop when it was released. As such, you got a ton of slots, because you couldn't even buy more unless you made a second account.

4. Someone mentioned that the subscription will be a bigger revenue stream than slots. That's probably not inaccurate, but what then does a sub actually get you that the non-sub player doesn't get? NOBODY on these forums seems to be able to really agree on that. From the devs, what it sounds like is that the sub will just mostly be a pre-agreed purchase of Starts, probably at a subscriber discount, made every month. So that then begs the question, what do we actually use the Stars for? That's where micro-transaction items like costume pieces, slots, respecs, etc come in and people RAGE against having to pay for any of that stuff in any way as soon as you start laying out the specifics. So basically, nobody wants to agree to give the game company any money at all beyond the game up-front purchase. Some people will even come out and say that. "I'm paying for the install, that should give me EVERYTHING, period." is an attitude I've heard before on this website. This is why I cannot take anyone on this forum seriously when they make statements of what they'd do if it were upto them in terms of starting slots, price, etc. Everyone acts like an entitled gamer with their hand in the cookie jar.

5. Its the devs' job to find a way to maximize the amount of money the game brings in every month. While that cause can best be served by trying to keep the gamers you have interested, the bottom line is not helped at all if those people never have to spend money on anything at all.

6. Some people only ever made ONE toon. Is it unfair to them to give everyone 8 starting slots, with the rationale being that you get that as part of the price of the game purchase? Can those people sell their unwanted slots back and get something they DO want in exchange?

7. If you buy the game, you probably get some staring Stars to play with, or else you get Stars after the first month of free sub time you got from the purchase of the game at the very least. Assuming you start with one slot, some stars, and the ability to unlock infinite new slots by leveling up your toon, and further assuming you want more slots right now, couldn't you just spend the Stars you're getting on that? So if I'm a 1-slot player, I can spend those stars on something else, but if I'm an altaholic, I can buy slots like every month with my monthly sub stars. If I'm an altaholic and not a long-term subscriber, I might have to eventually buy slots with money. I don't see any problem with that. Hence, one slot to start, plus some Stars. That would be my deal.

Giving all players things that a small amount of the player base don't/won't use is not unfair, at all. I'm sure there were some costume options in CoX that I never used (peg legs?) So is it fair that I got those when I bought the game even if I never used them and probably never will? Of course it is. Giving a player character slots that they don't use is their choice. Giving a player few character slots so then they feel forced to pay for more isn't a choice by the player. Choosing to buy more or not is, but again players shouldn't feel like they -have- to. There should be enough to be reasonable, then if the player wants more it's on them.

Subbers also will get access to things earlier than free players. Dunno how this shakes out, might be cash shop items, content, or anything really.

Project_Hero typed:
"Subbers also will get access to things earlier than free players. Dunno how this shakes out, might be cash shop items, content, or anything really."

A. Cash shop items can/should include slots, right?

B. It could be argued that "earlier access" is exactly what you're getting when they give you one starting slot and a few stars instead of 5 starting slots and no stars. I mean, your sub is giving you enough stars to buy more slots than other players start with right away, that's basically early access to a free unlock that the other player is getting when they level a toon to the cap and get their free one that way. The starting Stars give you the POTENTIAL to get more slots, if that's what YOU want to do with them, but they have other uses for other people.

C. "or anything really" is vague enough that people will agree to it in principle, but when you get specific as to what you intend to charge money/Stars for, some people always argue that the specific item mentioned should be free.

D. Paying for content, or even just early access to content is a contentious issue because it separates the players into those who can access the content (right now) and those who currently cannot. For the record I'm really not against that, but it does divide players into two groups and makes it harder to play with your friends, find teams, etc. Also, unless the content has something I want as rewards for doing it, I personally probably won't do it. Therefore it's not an incentive for me personally to pay a sub,and I'm basically a whale. I hav disposable income and the desire to see this game flourish and want to be a subscriber. That said, I generally did not do the Signature Story Arcs in CoX but paid my Sub on time every month so I could go on Incarnate trials. I didn't like where the Incarnate system was heading in the sense that you couldn't do the content without getting the incarnate powers, which were not my toon's themed powers, but instead some "Well of the Furies" induced BS, but that's a different problem.

Giving people one slot and enough stars to buy more right off the bat you'll probably find that most folks will just buy the slots then have a rather sour disposition about how the game is going to use the F2P elements.

I mean even SWTOR gives more slots than one and that's run by EA. You know the scummiest corporation in the gaming industry? The company that has killed many studios? I sure as hell hope we can be better than EA in that respect. They set the bar pretty low, so it should be easy to clear.

If the devs think that giving, say, 3-5 slots to people up front will allay the potential anger of new players, then I'm not against that. Just don't expect to get 60 slots right away for free. Slots seem like a cash shop item to me. It's likely that leveling a toon to the cap will take longer in CoT than it did in later-years CoX, so that's a thing to consider too.

If you twist the words enough anything can mean anything else.
Giving people one slot and enough stars to buy more right off the bat you'll probably find that most folks will just buy the slots then have a rather sour disposition about how the game is going to use the F2P elements.
I mean even SWTOR gives more slots than one and that's run by EA. You know the scummiest corporation in the gaming industry? The company that has killed many studios? I sure as hell hope we can be better than EA in that respect. They set the bar pretty low, so it should be easy to clear.

Yes, they gave you enough for all the class stories (8) not enough to make 6 of each each.

Project_Hero wrote:
If you twist the words enough anything can mean anything else.
Giving people one slot and enough stars to buy more right off the bat you'll probably find that most folks will just buy the slots then have a rather sour disposition about how the game is going to use the F2P elements.
I mean even SWTOR gives more slots than one and that's run by EA. You know the scummiest corporation in the gaming industry? The company that has killed many studios? I sure as hell hope we can be better than EA in that respect. They set the bar pretty low, so it should be easy to clear.
Yes, they gave you enough for all the class stories (8) not enough to make 6 of each each.

And I think 8 slots is about a fair amount, though I wouldn't complain at a few more

I think 3-5 slots up front will still be light for many players and playstyle.
As I said prior, I had 30+ characters before I got my first 40 (max at Relase).
I totally plan to pay for more character slots, but I wouldn't consider 3ish slots "value" on a Game I probably paid $40-60 for.

Again though, that was CoX which was a game that did not give you a free new slot every time you got a toon to the cap. If that IS the deal, then you will more likely try to get a toon to the cap here and there just to get the new slot. The added reward of the new slot is an incentive to level cap a toon now. Also, people who want 40 slots are, to me, the ones who would be expected to use their Stars on new slots. I mean, who else would? You're the targeted demographic that they're trying to sell more slots to.

Super M. wrote:
I think 3-5 slots up front will still be light for many players and playstyle.
As I said prior, I had 30+ characters before I got my first 40 (max at Relase).
I totally plan to pay for more character slots, but I wouldn't consider 3ish slots "value" on a Game I probably paid $40-60 for.
Again though, that was CoX which was a game that did not give you a free new slot every time you got a toon to the cap. If that IS the deal, then you will more likely try to get a toon to the cap here and there just to get the new slot. The added reward of the new slot is an incentive to level cap a toon now. Also, people who want 40 slots are, to me, the ones who would be expected to use their Stars on new slots. I mean, who else would? You're the targeted demographic that they're trying to sell more slots to.

I agree with you that people that want 20+ will be the targets for buying slots and that makes perfect sense.

Yeah, me either. Mostly the incentive I had to level up were group members bringing me with them as I was perfectly happy to just hang around and RP.

Yes this.

The time investment (at CoH launch) was too much to level past the mid 30s, you didn't always know how combos would turn out till you levled them a lot, and many toons were rp slots as well. Many had the same playstyle as us and it makes sense to consider those, which 1 - 3 character slots does not.

Something else to consider. If we're building characters we're also potentially spending money on cash shop accessories for different concepts as well.

I know we can unlock certain things per character during play but if I want an aura, I want it now, and I'll probably pay for that. The more characters I get to make, the more is be tempted to buy more accessories.