So just to check I'm understanding you properly, you are saying not to just memorize, but to understand it on a level that you can implement it yourself? Paraphrasing versus copy + paste, essentially?

I would agree with you that one does not entirely understand what he reads until he can explain it in his own words. That does not mean to neglect evidence and study, however. They add evidence to one's own argument.

You are close, but I would say close enough for the purpose of understanding. What we have learned we must take for our own use, but we must never repeat it. Only from this knowledge must we create our own words.

To neglect the studies one has layed out for us is what you still can't grasp, again I cannot change your answer, because you see the world as it is in reality, logic that cannot be changed. We learn how our mistakes shape our world, how perusing the quest for logic will ultimately be the final answer. You cannot control what we have done, so how can we control what we will begin to do? Only through logic?

I do not contest that evidence and study provides a valid argument, but there is soo much more we can answer with our own words. For now you seem to get the idea.

You are close, but I would say close enough for the purpose of understanding. What we have learned we must take for our own use, but we must never repeat it. Only from this knowledge must we create our own words.

To neglect the studies one has layed out for us is what you still can't grasp, again I cannot change your answer, because you see the world as it is in reality, logic that cannot be changed. We learn how our mistakes shape our world, how perusing the quest for logic will ultimately be the final answer. You cannot control what we have done, so how can we control what we will begin to do? Only through logic?

I do not contest that evidence and study provides a valid argument, but there is soo much more we can answer with our own words. For now you seem to get the idea.

There is a creativity existent in the rational world as well. It is not what a mind thinks, but how it thinks--no? Is that not why we have the compliment of a beautiful mind? In science we search for truth while knowing that universal truth is beyond the grasp of humankind. Humans are not purely logical minds and we cannot forgo that aspect of ourselves. Logic, however, is a tool for retaining fundamentals in an argument, both consistent and sound. In an argument it is reason that triumphs, because it is more probable to be closer to truth. Certainly there are other means of stumbling upon such by other facets, but they more accidental. By no means does the irrational convey certainty rather than probability that may or may not be fulfilled in actuality.

I do not see the world as such. This may not be objective reality--for example--this could be just a Brain in a Vat. I should also mention that while you may uphold the individual, rightly so, that we should not overlook the value we all gain by merely being a part of humanity. Nearly all items you use had once been the idea of another. Language as well. There is little we can rightfully say that is entirely of our own making.

I agree there is much that need be said on our own, to convey our understanding and to contribute. I also agree that I do not understand what you mean when you say an answer should be found outside of reason and dismissive of data.

Not to long ago, we had a chemist literally break the laws of chemistry!

https://www.newscientist.com/round-up/impossible-chemistry/

The APA claims that Homosexuality isn't a mental illness (I don't think it is, although I do think mental illness can arise, at higher rates due to the habit of homosexuality), but this doesn't change the fact that nearly 2/3's of the entire field of Psychology could be dismissed as it can't be reproduced.

You are close, but I would say close enough for the purpose of understanding. What we have learned we must take for our own use, but we must never repeat it. Only from this knowledge must we create our own words.

To neglect the studies one has layed out for us is what you still can't grasp, again I cannot change your answer, because you see the world as it is in reality, logic that cannot be changed. We learn how our mistakes shape our world, how perusing the quest for logic will ultimately be the final answer. You cannot control what we have done, so how can we control what we will begin to do? Only through logic?

I do not contest that evidence and study provides a valid argument, but there is soo much more we can answer with our own words. For now you seem to get the idea.

There is a creativity existent in the rational world as well. It is not what a mind thinks, but how it thinks--no? Is that not why we have the compliment of a beautiful mind? In science we search for truth while knowing that universal truth is beyond the grasp of humankind. Humans are not purely logical minds and we cannot forgo that aspect of ourselves. Logic, however, is a tool for retaining fundamentals in an argument, both consistent and sound. In an argument it is reason that triumphs, because it is more probable to be closer to truth. Certainly there are other means of stumbling upon such by other facets, but they more accidental. By no means does the irrational convey certainty rather than probability that may or may not be fulfilled in actuality.

I do not see the world as such. This may not be objective reality--for example--this could be just a Brain in a Vat. I should also mention that while you may uphold the individual, rightly so, that we should not overlook the value we all gain by merely being a part of humanity. Nearly all items you use had once been the idea of another. Language as well. There is little we can rightfully say that is entirely of our own making.

I agree there is much that need be said on our own, to convey our understanding and to contribute. I also agree that I do not understand what you mean when you say an answer should be found outside of reason and dismissive of data.

Of course, that is what being human is all about. There are people who love to discuss about many things, both logical and creative, reality and fictional, whatever tRuth people want to find; let them find it through any method they choose . The beauty about being human is that what we love to do makes us happy, and I do not step on people's necks for doing so as long as their words are true to themselves. Logic in our world is very important, and so is the creative mind.

Humanity would ultimately agree on how to communicate with eachother, regardless who created our first words, we accept them as a means of reaching out to others, to take from our mind what we are really feeling and thinking.. no matter what we could possibly do to the way we communicate there will alwas be a constant for it, we would ultimately agree on the way our thoughts reach out to people, just like I am typing this message . Of course any idea we have is ultimately not our own, but it is how we create that idea. No dream is ever the same, we envision our own truth from the knowledge we connect with. We move boulders with our ideas just like we move people. It isn't what we create, it is how we create it, an idea can be used by many, but it is how we go about creating it, what we can express to others, how we capture our own moment.

I didn't expect you to understand, I wanted you to try. Something that many people will never do If we are always given the answer we will never learn to find the truth ourselves.

Well i wouldn't go as far as saying muslims being evil.The people just aren't very fond off these terrorist groups that claim to be true followers of islams. Imagining standard citizen,who doesn't have many sources...tend to go with most accessible ones.If one sees every day on news "terrorist group x blew a bomb at place y and killed/injured z amount of people". Seeing those kinds of news daily can really give person negative outlook on muslim population especially if one has no dealings with said folk. Every religion, and ideology has it's extremists.But sadly for now muslim ones are loudest and get most media coverage.

It's not just about terrorism though.
Its failure to intergrate. The ones who openly express their dislike for our way of life. Disrespect our women, all the sexual harrassment and sexualt assault and rape.
Hearing that in some parts its not safe for a woman dressed in a certian way to go out alone, or telling girls in school to not wear short skirts, considering the introduction of female only trains (not the same as Japan lol), etc
And in some parts it's not safe if you are non Muslim, sharia police patrols, etc
And then there is us having to change our ways to cater for them. Change our way of life and culture and traditions as to not offend.
But dont get me wrong, i am well aware that alot of that sort of thing is actually caused by far left winged, politically correct, SJW, white guilt do gooder white people. They often are the cause of this type of thing.
Then there's the Halal food thing. Its' bullshit. It's a religious tax. Why are companies in non Muslim nations paying a tax to be Halal certified ? so companies make food Halal for Muslims yet pay Muslims in doing so? and the moeny often goes off shore(i know sometimes trade deals are involved).
And with such a small percentage of the population why should we be forced to eat halal food?
And you have Muslims openly talking about how they will take over and we will live under their laws in due time weather we like it or not(not saying all of them but enough).
Places like the UK, Germany and Sweden seem to be the most extreme cases of Muslim problems and do gooder white winged politicians doing ridiculous shit like banning sausages and pork in school(no ham sandwiches), banning the national flag in schools and toning down tradition celibrations because it might be offensive and etc

They dont intergeate , they out breed, they dont make you feel welcome like say when i go to China town or an Indian restaurant. I feel completely safe being surrounded by non Muslim Asians or Italians and Greeks, etc but not in Middle east town. Yes i conceed there IS "some" media effect.

But it is funny that you mention the media coverage. When in truth it's the exact opposite to what you say. Yes, Muslims have been labeled with the "terrorism" lable and there are stories about the extremists who want to take over and stories about the hijab and etc but infact, way more stories are covered up by the media as to not be seen as offensive or "racist"
Do some research. There is f**k ton of evidence of this out there. You tube and Google are your friend.
The media and the left wing politicians are covering up just how bad it is and how much shit has been going down. It's like they are too afraid to report the crimes being commited by the Muslim new arrivals.
I do understand that they dont want to cause race or religious wars and make everyone anti immigration but really it's another example of how weak western nations really are.

And then there is the fact that whilst here in our countires we bend over backwards to suit Muslims needs yet when you go to a Muslim nation its their way or nothing.
Their way or suffer the harsh consequences.
Yet here we let them build all their mosques and have their Halal foods and ban things and change our ways so we dont offend them. You wont get that treatment over in the middle east (special treatment and them being concerned or afraid to offend you, a non Muslim).

Eh i just think people in American and where iam from Australia dont see it. I have friends in the UK and from Russia and India and etc they tell me how it is over there(in parts).
I've never been racist. Only when i was young and dumb and did not like Asians. Wow how that changed lol. And there are some problems between whites and Aboriginals here. But i dont hate whole races and iam a multicultural person.
I even befriended a Muslim guy at work(not asking for a pat on the back , just saying) but i just do not like Islam. By that i mean i feel that it has NO place in the modern western world.

Even all my Asian mates and Europen mates and etc feel the same way. (maybe not all but most)

I do also believe though that America should not try to force Muslims to change their was of life in their own countries. No one has that right. Yet we are allowing it here.
But Germany has to be the worst example. Their female prime minister is a race traitor nut job. Oh the irony lol

well that certainly was an long post.And i was not saying that terrorism was only problem.I just like to keep my rants short. True there is integration problems,but what did you expect?the refugees come from extra religious countries to more secular society. the way religions like christianity, islam and judaism work is that they try to fill that void with their own lifestyle. Unfortunately, islam does not see earlhty laws on higher ground that their more religious ones.

And yes they commit crimes too and yes they shoudl be reported whenever they happen and not to cover our eyes from them. But one must not mark whole muslim population as people prone to criminalism and leeching life style. There are some that try to make best of what they have at the moment and integrate to society.The most integration negative people tend to be the first wave muslims:they stick to their own little communities and don't try to mingle with locals.But if they are given jobs and so on perhabs they would integrate better?or at least ehir children and their childrens children.SInce like it or not,seems like these people are here to stay...

And it's true i find it weird that how they demand this and that from their new country. Though one could say if we don't give into these demands evrything should work out eventually...the people will change eventually if system is adamant enough about it's own values.For example attempts to enforce sharia laws could be thwarted by deporting such personel that spread that kind of idea from country. Plain and simple.

Yeah it was a bit of a sky scraper hey..

I wouldn't call it a rant though. That's harsh

Yeah i know what you mean and i must admit i find it hard to not racially/religiously profile them.
Well i dunno, look at the UK. They have generations of them there, born and bred ones there and sometimes they are the extremists. And they have formed their own communities, infact they have pretty much taken over some whole towns.
There are parts of the UK that are not even considered England anymore (by the Muslims who occupy it).
There is plenty of evidence of this on film. Some of the footage really is very frightening.
And they often send their childrne to Islamic schools and of course they go to mosques. And then theres the fact that they dont drink and can only eat halal food and dont respect women who dont cover up and dress revealingly.
I mean many of them are raised with all these beliefs so they cant really mix and mingle with the locals unless they go against their beliefs. Not saying you cant not drink and intergrate but it makes it hard when drinking is a big part of the culture.

I dont think that you can compare Muslims (from Islamic nations) to other refugees and immigrants. People compare them to the Italians and Greeks and Vietnamese and Chinese and etc here saying things like the next generation will intergrate and etc.
With all them i mentioned that was true but with Muslims it's not that simple.
Not with their belief system. Its not like Muslims born here are going to grow up liking our local sport and our food and etc.
Cant speak for them all but overall i mean.
Eh i dont know , its hard. Iam not racist, i hang out with all kinds of races and we can all eat and drink and hang out together and all their women dress like us and we can all hang out and talk about the footy and etc but Muslims, i just dont see it.
I like to use the UK as the perfect example. An example that we all should learn from.
I do feel guilty feeling that way but the facts are there, the proof is there.

No one likes change(or it takes time to adjust). Like i said , when i was much younger i didn't like Asians and thought they were going to take over (China probably will though lol) but at least with them they dont threaten to take over or blow shit up or ask us to change things for them , we dont feel unsafe or worried about them, they drink, their women dress sexy, etc. They fit in.

Yes alot of them keep to themselves also , they have tradition but they dont follow a strict and out of date belief system.

About some parts being taken over...well who's idea was it to put all muslims in certain places?point of integration is to put them where are also locals. Meaning no "only certain ethnicity or social class" neighbourhoods. That in my experience often helps people integrate better. Again if it's such an problem i don't see why dont they go with army/police there and evict some people and fill gaps with locals? if authorities really wanted to do something about it,they would have done so yeaaars ago.

I guess in the end what people are afraid most is change. But world is not an static place. This kind of refugee flow was to be expected at some point.You see middle east and northern Africa are getting more and more un-livable. Population growth,not much food and clean water,radical people,lots of different religions....they are bound to cause problems. So if anybody got surprised by this refugee flood,i'd say they haven't been paying much attention to state of the world.

Just weird they come form unsafe, un free shit holes to our so much nicer and safer and "free" nations yet bring their problems with them and want to change their new home to be like their old one.
Rather than enjoy and embrace their new home and freedom they want to make it shit like the place that they supposedly ran from?

Well thing is people aren't necessarily too smart about these kinds of things. Another thing to note is most new guys jsut left their old homeland.Culture isn't something that goes away overnight.

Let's keep a running count, just to be sure.
(And we're not going to ban Muslim-steered threads, it's just more of a guideline we're planning to put in place...)

and another person jumps the gun and accuses anyone that doesn't speak positively of muslims as being a muslim-phobe. So how's that bigotry working out for you?

I take it you were being ironic about the thread-hijack joke. It's hard to tell, from a Cool Spot with a flamethrower.

well..i thought this was forum and i just answered someones post.Most of time i see monologue after monologue.Somebody says one thing but no one really responds to what one posts. Just shard my two cents about the subject the original poster posted which happened to be muslim related issue.

PeripheralVisionary
TL;DR: The problem is merely this. People are refusing change in the face of OVERWHELMING evidence, that they don't go out of their way to view, nor read them when presented with them. They are, however, fine with debating certain other people....who have the strange relation of appearing to be novices. The problem I feel is that they are refusing to challenge their view.

Mostly it isn't about attempting to convince the peeps one is debating with.

There are some people who are so entrenched in their ignorance and self-righteousness on this forum that they attempt to ban others simply for posting scientifically verified truths, and the direct claims of others. Coincidentally, there happens to be one half of the political spectrum that literally believes disagreement is harassment. That facts can oppress. These same individuals who attempt to ban others will explicitly use this language of "harassment" and "oppression" when they are unable to argue against fact and logic.

There's no convincing people like that.

Rather, it is about convincing people who are undecided or who are willing to change their positions when relevant facts or arguments are presented.

I was actually thinking about "love", how it's sweet and sour at the same time.

You know us Feeler types aren't interested in Quantum displacement! The idea that an atom could be in two places at once which would make inter-galactic communication possible is irrelevant if I can't see my loved ones in person! >:(

To be fair, there is a theory that quantum physics explains irrational human behavior. So it actually would apply to touchy-feely things like love.

Love can be explained with quantum probabilistic models, as other human behavior seems to be interpreted much like a Schrodinger's Cat.

All just theory, but it suits better than classical probability models.

How do they define love? How exactly do they use the models or what do they use it for? It sounds like highly sophisticated game theory.

Not to long ago, we had a chemist literally break the laws of chemistry!

https://www.newscientist.com/round-up/impossible-chemistry/

The APA claims that Homosexuality isn't a mental illness (I don't think it is, although I do think mental illness can arise, at higher rates due to the habit of homosexuality), but this doesn't change the fact that nearly 2/3's of the entire field of Psychology could be dismissed as it can't be reproduced.

Arguing overwhelming evidence in quantity is just a red hearing if the central point can't be changed.

Ah, I see. So this means psychology really is nothing more than theories? Okay.

I'm saying, due to the fact that most Psychological research can't be reproduced, we should be highly skeptical of any bold claim made within the field. IF we applied the same scrutiny to let's say, Theoretical Physics, most of the field would be tossed out, without question.