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01:09:32 Tear-down-the-paywall request: can anybody give me a copy of Clinger's ancient Scheme 311 paper ("An exercise in denotational semantics")?
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01:22:34 Daemmerung: http://www.mediafire.com/?yw4g2mgxitz
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01:32:00 lisppaste: url?
01:32:00 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
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01:41:53 incubot: Wrong paper!
01:41:57 And you just helped me with my paper.
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02:04:28 sloyd: That wasn't the Clinger paper that I wanted, but I certainly appreciate your effort. My fault for not citing the full title of the paper. William D. Clinger, "The Scheme 311 compiler: an exercise in denotational semantics", /Proceedings of the 1984 ACM Symposium on LISP and Functional Programming/, pp 356-364.
02:06:46 incubot: Tear down the wall!
02:06:48 but i still see the writing on the wall
02:09:38 incubot: help me think of something funny to say to you
02:09:41 i think i found it
02:09:47 ok, what was it?
02:10:11 *crickets*
02:12:53 *incubots*
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02:15:28 Daemmerung: oops, http://www.mediafire.com/?2znwz2cyywy
02:16:19 *Daemmerung* genuflects deeply
02:16:53 incubot: Yo ho! Yo ho! An ACM paywall pirate's life for me!
02:16:56 the main paper seems to be by Matthias Felleisen, but it's only available behind a paywall :-|
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03:18:00 classes cancalled for snow :O
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04:49:33 Boo!
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04:50:15 elly: I wish they would cancel classes for rain here
04:50:32 hiya Riastradh
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04:58:22 Adamant: Why would they cancel classes for rain? Are you going to baseball school?
04:59:16 foof: just too much of it
04:59:41 everything is completely soaked here
05:00:07 it quits raining for a day or two while remaining cloudy then it starts raining again
05:01:06 which continued a pattern that had only been interrupted by a relatively deep freeze
05:01:28 London? Brussels? Seattle?
05:01:37 Southeastern US
05:02:02 since I am hoping to end up in Seattle after graduation, this might be a sign
05:03:13 I think the ground and vegetation is more adapted to it in Seattle, though
05:03:32 here it just makes the ground continually soggy
05:06:07 then again, the last time I was in Seattle, the temperatures kinda reminded me of home due to the record heat wave, except Seattle doesn't have the same AC infrastructure or peak load planning for it's electrical infrastructure when everyone turns on their AC in the same hour
05:06:45 That was, in my experience, a unique climate event here.
05:06:54 so a generator up the street blew up
05:07:07 Daemmerung: yeah, I'm sure it was.
05:07:42 Daemmerung: it's one of those things that's so rare it's not worth budgeting into the infrastructure.
05:08:12 clearing roads of snow below roughly North Carolina is the same way in the South
05:08:48 If you're attuned to Atlanta latitudes, the short winter days and gray skies here can be depressing.
05:09:12 In a seasonal-affective-disorder sense.
05:09:37 it's a problem every 5-7 (maybe 10) years, and nobody gets enough practice at treating the roads to be particularly good at it
05:10:07 Daemmerung: already factored in if I move there.
05:10:28 I was born in Atlanta, and I love Washington state. Datapoint of one.
05:10:31 I've been in places that are kinda equivalent (Britain)
05:10:47 It is very much like London in that sense.
05:11:17 Daemmerung: I'll buy SAD lamps and keep them around whether I really need them or not :P
05:12:28 Daemmerung: is that why all the running paths there are asphalt? squishy ground?
05:12:36 (the Seattle area)
05:12:55 You're thinking of the burke-gilman trail?
05:13:04 Dirt paths here quickly churn into mud.
05:13:20 not sure, just a random trail I went on
05:13:22 ah
05:13:42 Another antidote to SAD is fleeing across the mountains. Lots of sunshine inland, though the winter daylight is no more lengthy.
05:14:23 I've been trying to run on grass in general as it's better for your joints
05:14:33 No kidding.
05:14:45 Nobody said going to Seattle was going to be *healthy*. :-)
05:16:02 arcfide: you know.... the fact that most stores there cater to the native granola fan population has some advantages. it was easier to find healthier stuff there to eat at the usually worst places (fast food, convenience stores)
05:17:06 When I was up there, it was kind of funny the first time I went out with some colleagues and instead of going to some fast good, we went to an Olive bar.
05:17:16 interesting.
05:17:19 s/good/food/
05:17:31 Then again, I assume everyone in Seattle is a little strange. :-)
05:17:43 Not that I don't like a good olive bar.
05:18:11 Hey offby1 - get your Wallingford carcass in here and chime in -
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05:21:35 "SAD lamps: the latest Genuine People Personalities innovation from Sirius Cybernetics. Put one down today!"
05:22:52 hey, at least it's not a ATM Machine where you put in your PIN number.
05:25:58 *offby1* eats Vitamin D to ward off the SADs
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06:18:31 *eli* wonders what people eat in "olive bars"
06:18:39 ...olives?
06:19:02 And that's supposed to be healthy?
06:19:09 *elly* has no idea
06:19:19 Or nutritious?
06:19:27 I have never been to one
06:20:14 mmm olives
06:20:36 I'd find it amusing of people really eat olives there -- they're not a particularly healthy food, and the common phrase in hebrew for "barely ate" would be "ate as much as an olive".
06:20:44 So overall, eating olives is a pretty bad idea.
06:23:20 Olive bar isn't a euphamism for martini bar?
06:24:26 It's more euphonious than "pork rind bar."
06:24:46 Fat, salt, what's not to like?
06:25:42 Ugh.
06:26:11 I googled "pork rind", and now I gave up on the idea of eating some of my stash of really good but overpriced olives.
06:26:18 mmmm... pork rinds...
06:26:25 what is a pork rind?
06:26:47 ugh!
06:26:58 Exactly.
06:27:24 They're even better than scrapple.
06:28:08 D:
06:28:16 how do people eat all of these things without dying?
06:29:00 An olive is a vegan pork rind.
06:29:38 I'd re-label the "pork rind" wikipedia page as "kosher-meat rules, self-explained".
06:30:49 Mmmm... subcutaneous fat.
06:30:50 I had chicken tikka masala and a bagel today
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06:31:39 chicken tikka masala is on the unhealthy end of the food-I-am-willing-to-eat spectrum
06:32:01 elly: Speaking about that, there's a place in cambridge that does really good CTM.
06:32:01 I had Miss Piggy's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.
06:32:19 *elly* is not sure she would eat food with "miss piggy" in the name
06:32:23 Mmmm... braunschweiger.
06:35:16 I'm not terribly fond of Russian sala though.
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07:35:15 eli: I thought most rabbis considered parts of the dietary requirement to be not rationally based and simply requirements from God, and used bacon as the classic example of non-rationally based food restrictions. :P
07:35:35 *Adamant* ducks
07:37:03 Adamant: I have no idea what most rabbis think, not even what some do. I just know that the kind of graphic images that visualize those kinds of foods are ones that could convince me to become religious to avoid it.
07:37:35 lol. I will avoid mentioning another Southern pork-based product as a result.
07:38:06 FWIW, I don't dig on pork rinds or the unnamed product
07:38:24 :)
07:42:54 eli: every culture can both disgust and get disgusted though, more or less. get the French talking to Anglosphere folk about some of the foods the French eat, or have Americans try to explain cornbread to Europeans.
07:44:02 food is wacky
07:47:33 Japanese food is the most wacky. Ankimo = cat food. "Cold grated mountain potato" = whale snot.
07:48:18 And I don't just mean =, I mean full-on eq?.
07:49:29 Daemmerung: I would agree it's the most wacky to most Westerners, but I'd hold off for judgement on it from other Asian folks before giving it the world title
07:49:42 Nonsense!
07:50:03 *Daemmerung* dons monocle, burnishes handle-bar mustache
07:51:18 I would think the word of choice would be "poppycock" or "a load of pish-posh", then
07:51:30 Balderdash!
07:51:33 although the second is a phrase
07:51:36 that works!
07:51:41 *Daemmerung* is relieved
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08:10:43 Adamant: there's clearly a subjective line there -- for each kind of food there's some percentage of people who would find it disgusting and some who would find it tasty. I think that cornbread would be very far from norwegian rotten fish on that scale.
08:11:25 And when it comes to kinds of meats, kosher ones tend to be more on the less exciting side, I think.
08:12:02 eli: probably. to be fair, I think even the Scandinavians are mostly carrying on lutevisk as a tradition, not as a regular dish. :P
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08:12:23 Yeah, that was my impression too.
08:13:27 eli: although you could argue kosher standards were important in developing food standards and perceptions for both Christians and Muslims, so like a ridiculous amount of people in the world have been influenced by them at some level.
08:14:08 although obviously most Christians and Christian-influenced societies break a lot of them
08:14:17 Adamant: right, that's why I refered to percentages.
08:14:21 yeah.
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08:22:31 I was thinking more along the lines of asking other Asians about the weirdness level of Japanese food - asking about the weirdness level of both culturally related and non-culturally related groups is probably the only reasonable way to do it, and the whole Abrahamic religious group is more than half the people on Earth.
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09:25:12 Japanese also eat that unamed Southern pork product, if it's what I think it is.
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09:27:34 Plus ankimo is just fish liver, many cultures eat that.
09:29:18 The Japanese also eat grasshoppers in one region, a staple of any devout Judeo-Christian diet :)
09:29:56 only with honey and salt :P
09:29:56 \
09:30:02 arrgh.
09:31:03 chocolate would probably be tastier, but only as a treat
09:41:31 Oh, and raw horse meat, that freaks a lot of people out.
09:55:45 foof: that was what I was thinking about with regards to the French
09:58:15 well, there's another one, but it also freaks out a lot of French, so I don't count it.
09:58:31 calf brains?
09:58:44 the live bird eating one
09:58:48 well, not live
09:58:59 but you snap off the head with the first bite
10:01:59 ok, perhaps I am remembering wrong.
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10:03:47 ah. the objection was that the birds were drowned in liquor after force-feeding, not that they were killed with the first bite
10:04:17 possibly not safe for people currently eating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ortolan_Bunting
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10:07:40 that's what I get for reading Le Monde while listening to Ozzy.
10:07:47 :)
10:08:31 I A M O R T O L A N M A N !
10:08:31 foof: yeah, hopefully I am not being culturally ignorant here.
10:08:54 I AMOROTO LANMAN
10:09:18 common Italian lament about Microsoft password schemes.
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11:58:16 srfi-2 should have provided surf-to
11:59:39 why srfi-2, specifically?
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12:01:15 because of the way srfi is pronounced
12:01:22 surfy.
12:01:28 ah! :-)
12:02:45 So srfi-4 should provide surf-for to.
12:03:14 (surf-for 'fun)
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14:50:23 Is there any way to express (define t (f a a)) as a valid form in mzscheme?
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14:51:35 i.e. I want to bind t to an expression, but t is simply used to have shorter typing at the body of a cond below that checks against it.
14:51:43 gwynddyllyd: (define t (+ 1 2)) works
14:52:38 gwynddyllyd: (define f +)(define a 2) (define t (f a a))
14:52:53 my error was: "not allowed in an expression context". In chicken it was working.
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14:53:23 *sjamaan* coughs *language levels*
14:55:39 sjamaan: oh, right. i am fairly new to scheme. i thought by invoking mzscheme from the shell it wouldn't inherit my choices on drscheme.
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14:56:25 mzscheme has language levels?
14:56:31 gwynddyllyd: I don't know how that works either. I just know it's a usual suspect when someone comes in here complaining PLT scheme doesn't work like Scheme
14:57:04 eli will probably scold me for that ;)
14:57:22 but mzscheme is not all of pltscheme
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14:59:05 I think these different language things are supported by the base system, which is mzscheme (or whatever the shared component is called)
14:59:12 sjamaan: i'm finding plt's ide to be more of a burden than a help while learning. when it first nagged me about the inner expressions thing i switched to chicken, but now i can't find documentation for 'symbols in it.
14:59:20 drscheme is just a fancy editor which includes that runtime
14:59:43 gwynddyllyd: "documentation for 'symbols"?
14:59:51 so i can't use (symbol=? 'something 'and-something-else)
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15:00:05 as chicken has no such function
15:00:26 (define (symbol=? a b) (and (symbol? a) (symbol? b) (eq? a b))
15:00:29 Something like that?
15:00:32 :)
15:00:49 symbol=? isn't a standard Scheme function AFAIK
15:01:04 you beat me to it
15:01:11 yes, that would work wonderfully!
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15:01:35 I think it should throw an error if a or b isn't a symbol, but the idea is the same
15:02:32 i don't know how to use error handling in scheme yet. baby stepping htdp, although the pace is very slow.
15:03:00 (of the book, not mine. well, maybe mine is also a little slow)
15:03:49 hm, I don't know how PLT-specific htdp is
15:04:04 You may run into trouble if you're using a different Scheme
15:05:40 sjamaan: do the implementations diverge this much?
15:06:08 no but the details may be annoying
15:06:40 Standard Scheme has very little useful facilities for "real world" programming
15:06:55 If you need to do networking, graphics, http etc etc you will need extensions
15:07:05 Most of those extensions are specific to one implementation
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15:11:51 Oh, I see. I'll try finding out how to change the language levels, then. Either that or adapting the exercises to the implementation i'm using.
15:12:51 is there an "industry standard" or most used implementation? something with more developer momentum and possibly R6RS compliance?
15:13:51 R6RS compliance is considered a misfeature by some, so it's not a very good measure to judge an implementation by
15:14:22 PLT has an active community and so does Chicken. Gambit is pretty popular as well
15:15:28 Just pick an implementation and stick with it for a while
15:15:50 After gathering some experience, you'll be better equipped to choose an implementation for day-to-day use
15:18:36 i'll stick to plt for the time being, only making sure to change the language level.
15:19:14 Sounds like the best approach for now
15:19:20 just to avoid reinventing the wheel for the whole book.
15:19:42 that's reasonable
15:19:56 yes. in any case, thanks a lot, sjamaan. it was really helpful. you too, C-Keen.
15:20:05 no problem. :)
15:20:19 np
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16:57:22 sjamaan: And indeed you should be scolded, since that error has nothing to do with language levels, so you've sent a newbie on a redundant quest.
16:57:30 rudybot: eval (define (foo) 1 (define f +) (define a 2) (define t (f a a)) t)
16:57:34 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready
16:57:34 eli: error: eval:1:16: define: not allowed in an expression context in: (define f +)
16:57:57 That is disallowed outside of the student languages.
16:58:38 eli: ?
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16:58:51 C-Keen: yes?
16:59:28 eli: what's the default language level if I just run mzscheme on the command line?
16:59:59 If you run a file through mzscheme, it should always have a `#lang' line.
17:00:14 and for the interpreter?
17:00:27 In that sense it has no "default language", unless you consider that to be the "Module" language.
17:01:07 and that's a student language?
17:01:18 Second, if you write expressions as with "mzscheme -r" or just type stuff out at the repl, then you get a language that is the same as if you had `#lang scheme' in the DrScheme definition window.
17:01:21 (I am asking out of pure ignorance)
17:01:46 Third, you can change that with `mzscheme -I ' for example `mzscheme -I typed-scheme' will give you a Typed Scheme repl.
17:02:16 ah ok, with that (define f +)(define a 2) (define t (f a a)) is perfectly valid
17:02:23 Fourth, there is no meaning to "interpreter" -- mzscheme, like many other lisps and schemes, compiles each expression you type in.
17:02:34 s/interpreter/REPL
17:03:16 (in the parlance of our times)
17:03:36 C-Keen: Getting to the student language in plain mzscheme would be pretty hard, I very highly doubt that anyone here has ever done it.
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17:04:17 eli: then I don't understand your above statement
17:04:19 As for those three definitions -- the error that he got is something you get if you write a `define' expression after a non-definition, which mzscheme, like several others, prohibits.
17:04:47 Here it is in bigger text:
17:05:00 rudybot: eval (define (foo) (define f +) (define a 2) (define t (f a a)) t)
17:05:04 rudybot: eval (foo)
17:05:04 eli: ; Value: 4
17:05:14 eli: but that has not been the original problem
17:05:22 rudybot: eval (define (foo) 'SOME-NON-DEFINITION-HERE (define f +) (define a 2) (define t (f a a)) t)
17:05:22 eli: error: eval:1:40: define: not allowed in an expression context in: (define f +)
17:05:57 That is standard; cf R5RS 5.2.2.
17:06:17 If Chicken allows that, then it is being special in doing so.
17:06:57 C-Keen: Yes, that *was* the original problem!
17:07:08 There is nothing in the teaching languages that would throw that error.
17:07:37 In fact, I just grepped the tree to be sure, and "an expression context" appears in exactly that error, and nowhere else.
17:10:09 eli: the question was: "gwynddyllyd> Is there any way to express (define t (f a a)) as a valid form in mzscheme?"
17:10:39 C-Keen: And the answer should have been "yes, it *is* a valid definition form in mzscheme".
17:11:02 eli: agreed.
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17:11:21 C-Keen: And then, when s/he was more specific about the error s/he receives, then the next question would be: "do you have some non-definition expression before these definitions, all being local to some outer function?".
17:12:15 Of course, I don't expect sjamaan to know that, but blaming the usual language level suspect is not the right thing.
17:20:17 hahaha
17:20:19 hi eli :)
17:22:20 He did say what he tried worked in Chicken
17:24:05 sjamaan: Also, starting from the next release it will be even harder to choose the student language by accident. And if it's someone that *is* doing htdp and gets an advice to use "a real" language, then it's almost guaranteed to be bad advice.
17:24:57 If he's doing htdp and is using another language than the language for htdp, he'd get the same error
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17:25:27 In this case -- yes.
17:26:06 That's something that is very noticeable in htdp courses -- there's always kids who think they know how to program, so they don't follow all the stupid things that slow them down: no design steps, no tests, etc -- and very often they get a hard slap when things get more interesting.
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17:27:23 eli: It would be good if the system allowed for excursions into a more advanced language when the student is actively experimenting
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17:39:42 sjamaan: If by "the system" you mean drscheme, then it certainly allows that by changing the language -- but at the stage of an htdp newbie that would be as smart as a student in driving school insisting on getting the experience of not using a seat belt and driving with the door open.
17:40:00 heh!
17:45:58 eli: what's the analogy for students which get into programming using C as first language?
17:46:25 mario-goulart: An amusing one.
17:46:27 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-254-36.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme
17:47:07 "Did you ever fly a plane? No? Well, here's your chance -- my f18 is parked in the back."
17:47:22 Probably World War III proportions.
17:48:09 Actually, an f18 would be pretty protected. So s/f18/phantom/
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18:04:01 *Daemmerung* considers a Scheme on the Kindle
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18:27:34 hello.
18:29:53 the world is a vampire, and so are the regexps
18:31:13 True, that
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19:13:11 Riastradh: I'm taking a look at http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/ephemeron.txt and noticed you use
19:13:12 (lambda (ephemeron)
19:13:12 (if (ephemeron-broken? ephemeron)
19:13:12 (begin (set-ephemeron.datum! ephemeron #f)
19:13:15 (remove-from-weak-set! the-ephemerons ephemeron))))
19:13:31