What we MEAN when we say D3 is TOO hard...

It is my conclusion that Diablo III betrays the brand of the previous two titles, and my goal henceforth will be to carefully illustrate why this is so in a calm and polite manner. My hope is to try to really give a voice to the frustration I and many others have felt and voiced on this very forum. I do this because I believe and hope I can very accurately express what many of us are feeling. After having played quite extensively, and farmed inferno for about 1 month, I have discovered why it is this game feels 'broke' to me.

The game is simply too hard.

It is not really that the game is too hard in the generic all around sense, it is that the game is too hard in specific ways that are simply NOT what I would expect from a Diablo sequel. Let me explain this some more:

Some games are hard because they require an immense amount of time (think currency from 5man dungeons in WOW). We will call this 'Time-suck hard'. No, its not hard to log onto your WOW account and clear a 5man for a few tokens and do this every day. In fact, it is easy. It is hard because it becomes monotonous and makes you feel constrained to play the game according to some master plan in such a way that it drains your soul - i.e. only allowing you to be rewarded after 'doing your time.' It is hard (for me at least) because I have to force myself to do it (or had to until I quit WOW). This kind of hard, in the long run, makes one suspect that the game is playing them instead of the other way around.

Some games are hard because they require an immense amount of mechanics memorization to complete or else you die. We will call this 'Simon says hard'. In the end, its about how well you memorize how to respond to certain things in order to win a fight.

Some games are hard because they require you to have only certain builds to be able to effectively play them. Its all about doing the math and making sure you have an optimal build. I would call this 'Chess hard' - after the game of chess which requires thinking ahead and analysis of many options.

Then there was Diablo and Diablo 2. These games are what I like to call 'Icarus hard'. Icarus was the old greek legend of a boy with wax wings who flew too close to the sun (ignoring his fathers warnings) and thus lost his wings and died. This is the kind of hard Diablo 2 specialized in. What I mean to say by this, is the game only got hard when you tried to kill too much too fast. THIS was the fun of Diablo 2. THIS was the challenge, and THIS is what kept me coming back over and over again. Diablo 2, was not very hard of a game to 'clear'. Killing monsters was somewhat easy, gearing was not overly complicated for the most part. Additionally, your choice of game play became simply a matter of preference for most (do you like to smash enemies into pieces with an iceblink whirlwind barb, or pop them like popcorn with a frozen orb sorc?). The diversity was increased because in the end the players did not care whether their build was a little suboptimal in DPS vs another build because it was fun for them to play that way. In the end, they had the luxury of NOT caring because of the fact that the difference might only be how fast you can clear, not whether you can clear at all. Because the game was easy in this way, and only really got hard when you decided to 'bite of more than you can chew', the skills and spells simply became an extension what kind of killer you liked to be (this is what the 'R' in RPG stands for, remember?). The customization made everyone feel 'cool' and 'special' and the open diversity kept us hooked when we, perfectly content with our barb say, played with some random amazon or sorc and saw them kill in some new and fun way and then said 'wow...that looks cool. I think ill go roll a sorc/amazon'. This is the real innovation that Diablo 2 really brought to the mainstream market. A game with RPG elements and a random item system that was 'Icarus hard' in a quasi MMO environment.

Diablo2 was 'Icarus hard'. It was not 'Time-suck hard'. The time suck just happened because they just loved the friggin game so much and all the different ways they could play it. They had the game way beat before they decided to just 'Keep playing it'. They did not keep playing it because they wanted to 'beat it', they kept playing it BECAUSE IT WAS FUN AND THEY LOVED IT!! It was not 'Simon says hard'. There were no 'enrage timers', auto healing mobs(if I remember right) or any other such garbage. Diablo2 was also not 'Chess hard'. The strategies you picked were not TOO terribly important. Sure, there were optimal builds perhaps, but no one cared because it did not prevent you from enjoying the game just because you had a 'non-max dps' build or whatever. You could still kill, you could still have fun, so the builds became a way to express yourself. In fact, I remember being just utterly amused to see some player use some utterly ridiculous build and still 'make it work'. I thought THAT was awesome.

This brings us to Diablo3. Sigh. Long, drawn out sigh.

Diablo 3 is NOT 'Icarus hard'. And by Diablo 3, or course, I mean Inferno. Normal, Nightmare and Hell are 'Icarus hard' but inferno is not. I know many might like to cite that 'you can just go play in hell mode', let me point out as has already been so eloquently pointed out in other threads on this forum: 'Inferno IS THE GAME'. You cannot take a game that is so gear dependent, create a level where the gear is better and expect the gamers to not treat this level as 'The game'. Sorry, in the end we are gamers, we are just not built that way. We want to play where the best reward is since gear is a big part of the game. So PLEASE for the love of God, do NOT give us this crap. If you need proof, go find out how many people in WOW play in the persistent world vs running dungeons all day long. Or better yet, if you want proof, imagine that the drops in hell where the same as Inferno. Would you play inferno just 'cuz i like the challenge and its hard!'. Yeah, I didn't think so.

Diablo 3 is 'Time-suck hard'. I find myself clearing act I over and over again just to either make a little money or find items that are maybe marginally better than what I have but not good enough to be able to play Act 2 the way I want to ('Icarus hard'). I am at the point where Act 1 is almost 'Icarus hard' for me but not quite yet. I have to stick within a few narrow builds if i want to be able to play it easy. Frankly, its getting old. The only reason I keep playing is because I have this small hope that the game designers have accounted for an 'Icarus hard' for all of inferno mode, i just have to grind to get there. Honestly though, I am beginning to believe that this will not be the case and you will still have barbs kiting like cowards and RDPS classes getting one or two shotted in inferno no matter what gear they have. If I knew this for a fact, I would not even be playing anymore. I would just uninstall and see what other games are out there that dont suck (not many unfortunately). When I see blizz trying to make the drops better and scrambling with patches for this and that, I laugh. The drops rates dont really need to get better. The game needs to get easier so that when we get that yellow with ordinary stats except some weird 'attackers take 4000 damage on hit' we actually feel adventurous and curious enough to say 'Hey, I wonder if this would be fun to try??'.

To add to that point, BECAUSE the game is so hard, D3 is also 'Chess hard'. I cannot deviate from a few core defensive strategies and not get owned. I am pigeonholed into a few strats because its about survival. Jay Wilson mentioned the old system was flawed because no one would 'do the math' they would just 'dump some points into this skill' or another. Thats right, Jay, you are very astute in making that observation. We did just dump into that skill or the other without doing the math. Why? Because WE DID NOT CARE ABOUT THE OPTIMAL BUILD. we didnt HAVE to! That was PART OF THE FUN!!! Please, for the love of god, get THAT through your head if nothing else. Instead, we have Blizzard so worried about 'balancing' that DHs are getting nerfed for IAS while we try to find the perfect Utopia where the game is perfectly balanced. The thing is, you can make a game balanced so that every class is no better than any other but that RUINS the game. It makes every class feel hokey, and nobody feels special. The funny thing is, the only reason the players are SOOO upset about DHs being OP or barbs now being OP is because THEY CANNOT PLAY THEIR CLASS THE WAY THEY want to so they lash out. What they are really saying is 'Make my class OP' so I can do some cool stuff too! Again, a game that is 'Icarus hard' does not worry and tie itself up in knots about balance. It favors diversity. Just like the argument "whats the solution to 'bad' free speech? More free speech".

So, in closing, If you are a player and agree with my positions, please bump, like,whatever this thread so it gets attention.

For Blizzard, I am not so naive to believe that all these issues I have raised could not have been understood and carefully considered before you launched this game. However, since this is not the game I would like to have seen, I would only ask that you would be so kind to answer the following questions and give me some peace of mind/closure:

1.- Did you understand the 'Icarus hard' nature of Diablo2 when you designed Diablo3 but decide instead to scrap that in favor of the game you have now?

2.- Would you be willing to consider making the game a more 'Icarus hard' type of game if you received enough criticism, and what would that take?

Diablo 3 is NOT 'Icarus hard'. And by Diablo 3, or course, I mean Inferno. Normal, Nightmare and Hell are 'Icarus hard' but inferno is not. I know many might like to cite that 'you can just go play in hell mode', let me point out as has already been so eloquently pointed out in other threads on this forum: 'Inferno IS THE GAME'. You cannot take a game that is so gear dependent, create a level where the gear is better and expect the gamers to not treat this level as 'The game'. Sorry, in the end we are gamers, we are just not built that way. We want to play where the best reward is since gear is a big part of the game. So PLEASE for the love of God, do NOT give us this crap. If you need proof, go find out how many people in WOW play in the persistent world vs running dungeons all day long. Or better yet, if you want proof, imagine that the drops in hell where the same as Inferno. Would you play inferno just 'cuz i like the challenge and its hard!'. Yeah, I didn't think so.

i agree with what your saying completely, and ive said it in a previous post before, what do you do when you all get to 60, and all the skills and stats are the exact same? the only thing to differentiate is the gear, which is a bit boring, especially when it comes to PVP, im gonna want to beat someone because ive made a better character and allocated my stats more effectively than them, not just down to luck or gear.

its so dead end, im in inferno, collecting gear and its getting to the point where im wondering what for?.. no end game

diablo 2 was fun because of the diversity, wanting to build the best type of the class.

im hoping they'll fix this game up with future patches to come (and i hope they keep coming quickly until the majority of the fanbase are at least happy with it)

I agree with you good sir in everything you have posted. The thing is is when I started playing this game I thought the fun would last from normal - inferno. But in inferno it all stopped. Sure I fought on and eventually killed Diablo. But there it all died out. I have no fun at all with my main character.

The loot system in this game is what I think bothers me the most. In my opinion, I love doing bosses or just doing farm runs in acts. But the loot is so bad it doesn't feel fun in anyway at all. Sure you can get lucky sometimes but most of the time not. Another thing I really miss from D2 as you already pointed out is all the fun way you could build your characters.

Tried renewing my d3 spirit by making new characters and lvling them up but that didn't help either. The game died for me just after a month which is sad because I wanted to be playing this game for a long time.

So I have bought myself new copy of Diablo 2 and playing it again now. The fun is still there! Will continue to do so until "hopefully" a change will come to Diablo 3. But I think the chance is small because of the loot system and the little diversity you can build your characters. But I can only hope.

Iread it all, go play D2, Id like diablo 3 mobs to get harder, and require more planning, that which you call chess hard.

PS: you could have said the same, with less words, i dont need to know who Icarus was, just so you can give me you`re definition of "Diablo 2 hard".

First.. let the topic starter say what he wants, if you dont want to read who icarus is/was, then dont read

Second.. Chess hard was = " Its all about doing the math and making sure you have an optimal build. I would call this 'Chess hard' - after the game of chess which requires thinking ahead and analysis of many options. "What does that have to do with mobs?

EDIT: woops forgot to say i agrre with you OP this game lacks alot to say the least, what i really miss the MOST is the lack of diversity in build, as you have said yourself, very few builds that actually works in inferno, if you go out of those 2, max 3 builds (depending what class) you are so gimped that you cant survive, and that took away my favourite build :(

Iread it all, go play D2, Id like diablo 3 mobs to get harder, and require more planning, that which you call chess hard.

PS: you could have said the same, with less words, i dont need to know who Icarus was, just so you can give me you`re definition of "Diablo 2 hard".

First.. let the topic starter say what he wants, if you dont want to read who icarus is/was, then dont read

Second.. Chess hard was = " Its all about doing the math and making sure you have an optimal build. I would call this 'Chess hard' - after the game of chess which requires thinking ahead and analysis of many options. "What does that have to do with mobs?

The reason blizzard made this game full of arbitrary deaths that are out of the players control and trash mobs that are as hard to kill as raid bosses is because people wanted Inferno to be super difficult and require you to have BiS gear and an optimum build so they could min/max.

The problem with making a game like this insanely difficult is that is kills build diversity, it makes farming take forever and feel frustrating and unrewarding(due to bad itemisation).

Nobody wants to farm monsters that are 1-shotting them from off the screen(act 4), nobody wants to run the exact same build for the duration they play their character(try using meteor, time warp, arcane torrent, electrocute, etc, in inferno and see how far it gets you - even in BiS gear).

Another problem is the amount of people who want to appear to be 'hardcore gamers' and say the game is too easy, just because they got lucky with affixes and killed a few packs before coming to the forums.

Fortunately after the 1.03 patch hit, a ton of people quit the game, you remember that patch? it was the one where they demolished IAS, thus rendering a whole lot of players characters impotent overnight, and then increased repair costs, punishing the casual player because a handful of people made a ton of gold wearing GF gear and breaking pots.

This massive drop in the player base had a domino effect. It made public games ghost towns, left the GAH stagnent(no one left to farm/buy/sell stuff) and forced blizzard to shift their design philosophy(if you read much in to Bashioks posts regarding the DH full set bonus) regarding the difficulty of the game.

They realised people don't want another World of Warcraft, and that they also don't want to come home from work, load up the game and spent an hour or two bashing their head against a brick wall in frustration at the sheer mindlessness of the difficulty in this game.

it is not too hard. I can easily clear inferno act 3 when I'm playing solo and I have never used RMAH, never bought gold for real money, never abused a bug and I'm not really a nerd, I have only played 217 hours so far.

so...if I could do, you can too. the damn game is already way too damn easy, please, quit this talk.

i agree with what your saying completely, and ive said it in a previous post before, what do you do when you all get to 60, and all the skills and stats are the exact same? the only thing to differentiate is the gear, which is a bit boring, especially when it comes to PVP, im gonna want to beat someone because ive made a better character and allocated my stats more effectively than them, not just down to luck or gear.

its so dead end, im in inferno, collecting gear and its getting to the point where im wondering what for?.. no end game

diablo 2 was fun because of the diversity, wanting to build the best type of the class.

im hoping they'll fix this game up with future patches to come (and i hope they keep coming quickly until the majority of the fanbase are at least happy with it)

End game could of been about obtaining lvl60 Sets and Legendaries for their Bonuses, to get ready for PVP. Not about obtaining iLvl 63 rares just so that you have a "chance" to beat inferno at snail's pace for no real reason.

I agree with you good sir in everything you have posted. The thing is is when I started playing this game I thought the fun would last from normal - inferno. But in inferno it all stopped. Sure I fought on and eventually killed Diablo. But there it all died out. I have no fun at all with my main character.

The loot system in this game is what I think bothers me the most. In my opinion, I love doing bosses or just doing farm runs in acts. But the loot is so bad it doesn't feel fun in anyway at all. Sure you can get lucky sometimes but most of the time not. Another thing I really miss from D2 as you already pointed out is all the fun way you could build your characters.

Tried renewing my d3 spirit by making new characters and lvling them up but that didn't help either. The game died for me just after a month which is sad because I wanted to be playing this game for a long time.

So I have bought myself new copy of Diablo 2 and playing it again now. The fun is still there! Will continue to do so until "hopefully" a change will come to Diablo 3. But I think the chance is small because of the loot system and the little diversity you can build your characters. But I can only hope.

It took me 3 hours to put this together, I wanted to make sure I was doing something more than just saying 'qq, its too hard'. Because I don't mind a game being hard, and that is not good enough. I wanted to explain the why. My only hope is that enough people agree with me. However, my fear is that I am in the stark minority. I just want my voice to be heard and hopefully lifted if several of you in the community agree with me. I wanted to play this game for a long time too. Maybe I will just buy a new copy of D2 also, and mourn for the game D3 could have been. I wish the game industry would learn that making everything like WOW is not fun for people who got bored with WOW. I wanted something different...

it is not too hard. I can easily clear inferno act 3 when I'm playing solo and I have never used RMAH, never bought gold for real money, never abused a bug and I'm not really a nerd, I have only played 217 hours so far.

so...if I could do, you can too. the damn game is already way too damn easy, please, quit this talk.

Yes. This game should be about a metric !@#$ton of different ways to slaughter things while getting better gear that not only makes it more efficient but also gives you twists to it by having more interesting special features than anything in this game right now has. Your chess hard isn't a bad thing, it's just that there should be a %^-*ton of ways to solve the problem instead of the few currently available. So many skills are just pure crap.

Sure, there are a few ways to kill mobs per class, but it's really quite limited in Diablo 3 at least at these gear levels. At some hugely overpowered gearlevels anything will go, but I personally would've wanted to see a game where I can make at least half a dozen very different builds on a class, all being quite viable if somewhat specialized in different things and monsters that actually require planning to kill instead of these current mobs which range as elites mostly from trivial to bull!@#$ with some combinations there that genuinely feel challenging and rewarding at the end.

Seriously, there also should've been way more and way more interesting elite affixes along with more and more interesting item affixes. Just limit them to some mobs only. Like give some of the bigger mobs on inferno when elite ability to try to jump on top of player stunning and damaging them if they hit. Or make some of those archers charge up more powerful shots once in a while. I mean, those are fairly simple things that would've given so much more variance in the things I repeatedly kill.

its clear that u are NOT comparing the previous 2 titles, since the leap from D1 to D2 was immense and offered a TOTALLY different gameplay, and that the leap from D2 to D3 is LESS immense.

ANY who remember the necromancer glitch on boneprison? doubled the spear/spirit damage from release to 1.11 patch? then it got nerfed. anyone who remember the souls and dolls with conviction down to Baal who killed the teleporters from time to time up to 1.12 patch?anyone remember iron maiden in CS that maimed ANY melee char, cept from babas up to 1.13 patch?ANYONE remember the OP'ed hammerdin that got nerfed in 1.13 patch?ANYONE who remember how HARD it was to find HR's in the beginning of EACH ladder, until the bots had done their work, and was "fixed" by increasing the droprate on HR's in patch 1.13?

no. D3 is absolutely a worthy descendant from D2, and WHEN(i hope its not a big IF) Blizzard fix glitches, bugs, increase legendaries to be stabile statwise and rares to be wildcards, it will be ossum.(awesome)

i see loads who whine about "the good ole days in D2", but fun thing is: the descriptions of "the good ole days" arent near MY 10 year old experience with D2:p strange.....