An Attempt at a Discussion with the Predictible Results

I commented (and am posting it here because it probably will be disappeared if it gets any up arrows)

The Dianic traditions were started because of the limitations of
traditional Wicca regarding women and in particular, lesbian women. Leo
Martelleo started the gay male covens for the same reasons back in the
mid seventies. The Radical Faeries yet another example. In Paganism we
do not hold some mythical afterlife of punishment for not following any
given tradition as a sword over anyone's head. Paganism has a long
proud history of new traditions arising to fill a need that hasn't been
met.

Women of transsexed history have participated in women's
mysteries all around the world including among the Aborigines of
Australia in both the near and ancient past. Why is this suddenly an
issue? Why haven't those who insist they need a new tradition for
genderqueer and transgender people started one? Are you aware that
transsexual priestesses were part of EVERY Mother Goddess tradition of
the ancient world. That by setting women up in an oppositional class of
"cis" you are actually defining yourself out of womanhood? (and by your
own hand) That there is an entire body of trans focused mysteries that
is still celebrated today and was a rich part of the Roman practices...
open to all?

It is the height of egotism to demand a tradition
change itself to suit one's self. To deny access to women and men to
mysteries based on your own personal physical differences. Women cannot
take part in men's mysteries either and vice versa. Yes, it can major
suck to deal with being trans but that is not the be all and end all of
suckyness people have to deal with for being different. Enough of the
oppression Olympics already and move on just as thousands of women of
transsexed history have done before you.

The response:

“Why is this suddenly an issue?”It didn't become an issue suddenly, it's been an issue for a long time.“Why haven't those who insist they need a new tradition for genderqueer and transgender people started one? “Because
the folks who are demanding that we go celebrate our own mysteries
aren't us. I'd be leery of a “trans Mystery” created by someone who invalidates my gender identity and insults me.

“That by setting women up in an oppositional class of "cis" youare actually defining yourself out of womanhood? (and by your ownhand) “

Being
cisgender is the antonym of being transgender. Both are descriptive
traits for different kinds of people. Being cisgender means that you
identify with the gender that you were assigned at birth. Being transgender means that you do not. Being a cisgender woman or a transgender woman does not make you less of a woman, anymore than being a cisgender or transgender man. It's a label used to describe the different experiences we have in relation to our genderidentities.

“That there is an entire body of trans focused mysteries that is stillcelebrated today and was a rich part of the Roman practices... opento all?”

If it's open to all, then it's not a trans Mystery, now is it? Also,there are plenty of Pagan trans folks that aren't Romanreconstructionists. That works just fine for modern day Gallae likethose who worship at the Matreum of Cybele. Not so much for everyother tradition out there.

“It is the height of egotism to demand a tradition change itself to suitone's self. To deny access to women and men to mysteries based onyour own personal physical differences.”

I'm demanding nothing of the sort. I wouldn't have people denied access to women's or men's mysteries based on our physical differences – that's the problem that I'm raising here, that that is what is happening.

“Yes, it can major suck to deal with being trans but that is not the be all and end all of suckyness people have to deal with for beingdifferent. Enough of the oppression Olympics already and move on justas thousands of women of transsexed history have done before you.”

Oppression
Olympics suggests that I am trying to compare or compete in claims of
being oppressed. I'm really not sure how I did that here. Inengaging in this dialogue I am trying to move on, I'm trying tointroduce people to concepts that they may not have understoodbefore, may not have considered before, and may want to consider.What
I wrote was not about oppression, it was about empowerment. It was
about claiming our rightful place, knowing who we are and notallowing hostility and hatred to overcome us. There are far more ofus than most people realize, and we're not going away, and at somepoint folks are going to have to deal with our presence. There areplenty of womens' groups that will accept transwomen, and there aresome mens' groups that will accept trans men, and in the long runwe're going to see that being the rule rather than the hateful,exclusive exception.

Why does it bother you so much that another woman wants to engage in womens' rites, when you claim that it has happened in every society?

And my reply:

Bother me? not in the least but you sidestep a MAJOR issue here.
When the transgender movement basically erased transsexuality in the
name of "opposition to the gender binary" they dismissed out of hand
those who transitioned and got on with their lives... as men or as women
without modifiers like myself. Funny how my long experience was that
when you approach a womens group as a woman rather than as a
trans-whatever, you are welcomed with open arms 99.9% of the time. The
fact of the matter is that when the transgender movement started using
"cis" as an oppositional position, and yes, that is exactly what it is,
it was to oppose the gender binary and it thus follows you surrender
all claims to womanhood or manhood in the process and thus any right to
participate in rituals that a woman or male specific. You can be a man
or you can be a woman but if you identify as trans, deny actual physical
realities as a result or oppose a gender binary, you are something
else. You cannot have your cake and eat it too and that is the
dishonesty that has personified the "trans inclusive" movement in
Paganism. Rather than participate in all the traditions that are not
binary specific, you demand those that are must change to suit yourself
and that my dear is pure ego entitlement. It is no different than if I
approached Baptists and insist/demand they switch to worshipping the
Goddess to accommodate my feelings and call them bigots if they refuse.

Your
entitlement is showing big time. It takes a lot of work to start a new
tradition or reclaim an ancient one and that is the real reason there
are no trans specific, non binary traditions. Those with entitlement
issues don't do the work, they demand everyone else change to suit their
own worldview. As for the Cybeline mysteries, they are actual
mysteries in the ancient sense, not discussed and experienced on a
personal level, while the rituals leading up to them are open to all.
If you are going to discuss mysteries, you should read up on what they
actually are.