I thought about this while replyint to a great post by Samina in the staying on time topic.

DSV loves to tell us that for a follower (or more correctly a 'reactor') 'the man is the music' meaning that we do not dance to the rhytm of the music but to the lead of the man. If we are off time, then so be it but at least we are always together.

I have been happy wiht this analysis as I feel it has really improved my partnership abilities. However, I have been thinking a bit more about the subject and I realize (er, maybe a duh monent OK , but bear with me) that there is mush more to music than just rhythm and that yes, I AM listening to the tone and expression of the piece if not to the timing. Its a bit like separating your upper body from your lower one but I think it is real. My expression, my 'selling' (DSV) is strongly coloured by the specific piece that is being played. Maybe I should have grasped this a long time ago but I'm throwing it out there for your input.....

I believe that you are correct. There is a sentence in the "book" *shameless plug* that reads, "The feet dance to the beat; the body moves to the music." In this vain, the man mighht dance on/off the beat accordingly to his desire or ability, and the lady's "beat" is defined by her partner's. However, dance is a 2 part movement; steps and movement. After the lead/direction is given, it is not the lady's option, but her job to interpret that movement to the best of "her" desire or ability. The man's job of leading is unfinished until he follows the lady's interpretation to the end of the movement. Therefore, if he has something specific in mind that he wishes to create, he may do so at that time.

This is why I tell ladies all the time, that I wish to dance with them --not for them.

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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.

I thought about this while replyint to a great post by Samina in the staying on time topic. that there is mush more to music than just rhythm and that yes, I AM listening to the tone and expression of the piece if not to the timing.

If there's a grain of truth to what ALB keeps beating us over the head with, it's that the music is certainly there to be interpreted, and good dancers will make an effort to do so. And it's true that some high-ranked dancers don't do it as well as they should. But the mistake that ALB keeps making is assuming that interpreting the music isn't a part of ballroom dancing. It is -- but it's not done in quite the same way as in club dancing, so if that's what you're looking for, you are likely to miss it.

One thing that's different in the traveling dances (something the swing dancers don't have to worry about) is that even in a comp where most couples are dancing set routines, allowances still have to be made for floorcraft. This means that you do not always have the luxury of being able to do what you want, when you want to do it. You may miss an opportunity to really embellish a crescendo in the music because at that point you're having to execute a slip pivot to avoid crashing in to the couple who just cut you off. C'est la vie; you just have to find another spot in the music and on the floor where you can do it.

It's often said that the lead sets the timing and direction of the dance, but it's the follow who really has control over the style. And she certainly can't do that, in any sensible way, if she isn't listening to the music. And I've seen the audience reaction to a routine that is technically good but not danced in a style that goes with the music -- it leaves the audience saying "huh?" They may not be able to put their finger on what was wrong, but they know something was.

The point of this topic was the question whether all elements of music should be felt through the man or whether one should distinguish the rhythm elements from the expressive ones. That is it is imperative to follow the man's timing but should you also add expression from the particular piece that is being played??

Me and DP have this argument heaps, but not with dancing. We'll both get one piano piece, and play it so differently that we can't actually stand the other person's interpretation. It just sounds wrong.

But in dancing, well, we occasionally have differences in interpretation, but he gets told to copy me because 'the girl is good at that stuff'

But in dancing, well, we occasionally have differences in interpretation, but he gets told to copy me because 'the girl is good at that stuff'

Even more to the point: When the audience is looking for the style of the dance, they're going to be looking mostly at my partner, not me. My lame answer to SW's question is, "it depends on what the definition of 'feel' is." I've said before that I consider the basic timing to be my prerogative as a lead, and I expect my partner to stay with me on that. However, when it comes to other elements of expression, such as how much to move or how "big" to make the dancing, if I find that my partner isn't doing it the same as me, I'm quite likely to go with her interpretation.

I have to admit that the earplugs bit puzzles me. Maybe they already know what music was going to be used? It seems to me that if the lady isn't listening to the music, the conversational aspect of leading is mostly lost -- I have to "tell" her how to interpret the music, so she has nothing to "say" back to me. And besides, I'm not a skilled enough lead to do all that!

hmmm... this topic is reminding me a lot of the pleasure of sex... heh. in particular, the question: is that pleasure "local" or "non-local"? the more you are immersed in the experience, the less local the experience and the less identifiable are the separate components involved.

certainly, the same with dance, the music, and what what one feels, hears, and experiences in the mix of it all.

I raised the 'the man is the musc' concept to my coach and my partner and to my surprise they both disagreed!! [I had expected them to brush it off as obvious, but I truly underestimated them]. Their point was that in many steps the woman is actually leading so she has to be in time with the music. Actually, I still don't agree with them because if I take any liberties they complain that I am 'rushing' 'too slow' 'in the way' etc etc. Meaning of course that I am not following (or responding) at precisely the right time. Hence, the man is still the music in my mind.

but to get back to the point here if the man is the music - or at least the rhytm - is there anything in the music that the woman is? I thought about it tonight at practise and man or no man I dance very differently to different mood waltzes (for example). There are some that I just get totally lost in - wish I would write them down but I think I'm not actually capapble of anythign but dancing to those...

but to get back to the point here if the man is the music - or at least the rhytm - is there anything in the music that the woman is?

Pretty much everything except the rhythm, to at least some extent. Melody, harmony, dynamics and emphasis, timbre and mood. Even lyrics, if the dancers are sufficiently skilled.

And actually, there are dances where the follow gets to play with timing too, within certain parameters. Standard is the least tolerant area there. Salsa and WCS are at the other extreme; there, the follow actually has considerable latitude with timing at certain points.

I believe that you are correct. There is a sentence in the "book" *shameless plug* that reads, "The feet dance to the beat; the body moves to the music." In this vain, the man mighht dance on/off the beat accordingly to his desire or ability, and the lady's "beat" is defined by her partner's. However, dance is a 2 part movement; steps and movement. After the lead/direction is given, it is not the lady's option, but her job to interpret that movement to the best of "her" desire or ability. The man's job of leading is unfinished until he follows the lady's interpretation to the end of the movement. Therefore, if he has something specific in mind that he wishes to create, he may do so at that time.

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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.