Heikki does deserve a good chance, no doubt about it. i see him as somewhat akin to rosberg, he can drive a car to its potential but he doesn't have that extra bit like Lewis/kimi/vettel/alonso but does what is required of him. infact, i'd rate him above PDResta. Hulkenberg has consistently outperformed him in qually. but FI's race pace is not as good as say Saubers, most races, they go backwards.

Also i thing hulkenberg-sauber move is just another rumor. not likely to happen. sauber will either choose 2 new driver or stick with Kamui and put Esteban in the other seat (most likely)

What's funny is that some people's claims of Hulk/di Resta=better than both Sauber drivers, Sauber=great car, FI=mediocre car, linking Hulk/di Resta to Ferrari/Mclaren, etc are exact carbon copy of what some jorno and media say. But there's no base for that at all. Proper race by race analysis points to quite opposite actually.

Do you have a pointer to such an analysis? Having seen all races, I think the FI drivers are much better at maximising the car than the Williams drivers and probably also the Sauber drivers. In addition, I can hardly recall any mistakes by Di Resta or Hulkenberg (the latter is even 4th in the Autosport rankings ). I'd be very interested in an analysis showing that FI is a better car than Sauber.

What's funny is that some people's claims of Hulk/di Resta=better than both Sauber drivers, Sauber=great car, FI=mediocre car, linking Hulk/di Resta to Ferrari/Mclaren, etc are exact carbon copy of what some jorno and media say. But there's no base for that at all. Proper race by race analysis points to quite opposite actually. Someone like Allen is really succeeding in this media spin and hype. Obviously he wanted to put di Resta or Hulk to Mclaren or Ferrari hence playing down Perez before Macca signing him, esp after Monza. Now he's busy playing down Kamui and talk up Hulk (maybe coz assuming Massa look more likely to stay at Ferrari after Suzuka), so quick to minimize the impact of KK's briliant performance and podium in Japan.

I guess it's based on Hulk's previous performances before coming to F1. I think he came 1st in every category he raced before stepping into Formula One.

Two guys who have also never been given a podium scoring car. You can't really compare these drivers directly when they're all driving vastly different machines. You might as well say why replace Webber with someone younger who has never won a race before at Toro Rosso.

Who says the car will be podium scoring in their hands though? Totally not sold on the Sauber will win everything if X was driving omg lols line, I think both Kamui and Perez are exceptional talents. Kamui beat Heidfeld and De La Rosa pretty damn well in his first season and then faced Perez who McLaren grabbed ASAP when Lewis was gone. If they felt like it they would have gone for Di Resta or even Pastor, but they didn't. And Kamui is fairly close to Perez now and the faster of the two when running the same strategy. Perez is just freakishly good with tyres.

There is so much animosity towards Perez doing well because of the hate for the tyres shown by some, and his role in Lewis crap, so people have taken to talking down him and, by extension, Kamui. I think the Williams has been a faster car at more races this year, and Senna is just a pay driver who was equal with Chandok, so Pastor looks much much better.

Only in Japan was Sauber a car able to match the front runners on the same tyre strategy, or maybe Spa, but both Kamui and Pastor made mistakes there. Williams was damn quick in Spain, Valencia, Singapore to name some, but only one was converted to a podium. Koba holding off Button who had fresher tyres was as good as Pastor holding off Alonso, just people cared as in Spain it was for the win.

Force India drivers? Sutil was better than Di Resta and Rubens beat Hulkenberg in their first year, so I can hardly see how much better than either Sauber driver they were seeing as how neither of those drivers are in F1 any more.

I just hope that Bruno Senna is still in F1 next year. Ideally Williams, if not then Sauber or Force India I would be content for him to go as far down as Caterham but Marussia and HRT would be a waste of time!!

Do you have a pointer to such an analysis? Having seen all races, I think the FI drivers are much better at maximising the car than the Williams drivers and probably also the Sauber drivers. In addition, I can hardly recall any mistakes by Di Resta or Hulkenberg (the latter is even 4th in the Autosport rankings ). I'd be very interested in an analysis showing that FI is a better car than Sauber.

I agree FI drivers are better than Williams. And I'm not rating FI drivers lowly. I rate them and like them both. Just pointing out they havent yet shown as much brilliance as Kamui and Perez, who both showed its worth way more than 1 occasion over the years. Hardly recall mistakes from di Resta or Hulk? Both have just crashed at Suzuka, albeit at FPs. Also I remember Hulk made quite alot mistakes and all over the place in 2010. Anyway, overall, mistake/accident ratio isnt much different b/w Sauber/FI drivers.

As I wrote in post linked above, Sauber is no doubt good car, but no way hugely better than FI/Williams nor as good as Merc/Lotus. FI looked bit stronger than Sauber at Monza, and at Spa Williams and FI almost as good as Sauber. Not to mention Sauber is horrible on circuits like Singapore and Hungary, as I said in the linked post.

Two guys who have also never been given a podium scoring car. You can't really compare these drivers directly when they're all driving vastly different machines.

that's hardly truth, often they mix with Sauber and sometimes outqualify.

It's true that all Sauber podiums bar KK@Suzuka were due to odd strategy, but at the same time Perez absolutely delivered it. Take Monza for example, for 1st stint he drove gently wihtout pushing it with hards, then for 2nd stint with medium he switched his driving to aggressive mode and attacked hard. Very impressive. That's observable on TV. No doubt he benefited huge from odd and best strategy and circumstance, but he absolutely maximized it. As for Kamui, his race at Barcelona, Germany and Suzuka are fairly impressive.

You might as well say why replace Webber with someone younger who has never won a race before at Toro Rosso.

actually it's more like claiming, for instance, "put Kimi/Ros/etc in Red Bull/Macca, and Mark/JB should go to NASCAR".

Kamui beat Heidfeld and De La Rosa pretty damn well in his first season(...)Force India drivers? Sutil was better than Di Resta and Rubens beat Hulkenberg in their first year(...)

I can often see some kind of misjudging with these team-mate comparisons.

First of all, you can't just go so straightaway with them. After Hill beat Villeneuve in 1996 and Villeneuve convincingly beat Frentzen in 1997 in the same cars, you would expect Hill to beat Frentzen in Jordan in 1999, but it was Frentzen who did much better job then. We're talking about young and relatively inexperienced guys. It's not a big surprise if they are somehow able to make a big progress from season to season and somebody may not realise it just because they're now paired with different team-mates.

People tend not to realise that Rubens only beat Hulk considering the whole 2010 due to experience and better 1st half of the season. When Nico was leaving Williams, he was at least as good driver as Rubens, outscored him in last 9 races of the season. He was the only one to put that Williams in top5 in qualifying (he did it twice) and his rising trend was suggesting that he was even better prospect for 2011 than Rubens. Williams fired him, because they thought they would benefit from Rubens' experience with developing the car, but it didn't work with their 2011 crap. Rubens proved that he could deliver quite a lot from midfield cars throughout his career and the fact that Hulk matched him in the second half of his rookie season makes me think that it's impossible he would be underperforming so badly as some people try to suggest and that Force India was comparable or better car throughout the season to some of the teams that are in front in WCC.

Also Kamui didn't beat de la Rosa as convincingly as points and memory flashbacks could suggest. If we look at it from race to race, you will see they were quite comparable over the season:Bahrain: De la Rosa qualified better. Kamui had better start, but then Pedro was lapping slightly faster and had caught and overtaken him before Kamui retired.Australia: De la Rosa outqualified Kamui again. Race gave no comparison as Kamui retired on lap 1.Malaysia: Kamui had qualified better, Pedro didn't participate in the race due to engine problemChina: Kamui had qualified better, but retired after 1st lap crash.Spain: Kamui seemed quicker although de la Rosa retired early due to car damage after collision with BuemiMonaco: Pedro had qualified better and had been maintaining slight lead over Kamui to the moment when he retired due to engine problems.Turkey: Kamui had qualified better, Pedro caught him at the end of the race and finished less than one second behind him,Canada: Pedro had outqualified Kamui who retired at the beginning of the race after his own mistake.Europe: This is the famous race when Pedro had outqualified Kamui and was leading him in the race before SC period allowed Kamui to shine due to different strategy than majority of other drivers.Great Britain: Pedro had qualified higher again. Kobayashi got better start and was maintaining his lead over Pedro, who had quite simillar pace to him before incident with Sutil.Germany: Kamui had qualified better. Pedro was maintaining good race pace on different strategy. With 9 laps to go he was only 2 seconds behind Kobayashi and had much fresher tyres. Had a good chance of outracing Kamui, but had a contact with Kovalainen who was being lapped by him.Hungary: Pedro had outqualified Kamui by 9 positions. In the race de la Rosa finished higher but with a small margin, considering the difference in grid positions. (probably SC had quite a lot to do with it)Belgium: In qualifying Kamui set better time but both went out of the circuit on their decisive laps and were dropped after Q1. In race Kamui finished higher, but Pedro had 2 pit stops more.Italy: Kamui qualified much better but has not finished any single lap in the race due to problems with car.Then Pedro was replaced by Heidfeld, who was no benchmark for Kamui, as joining the team in mid season usually don't allow you to do your best due to lack of running with the current car. How important it can be you could see when Fisico switched his team in the late 2009, and he was nowhere in Ferrari after pole and 2nd in the race in Belgium with FI.

And don't forget de la Rosa was after years without regular racing and was hardly ever considered as being anywhere close to the top drivers. Also Kamui was a bit more experienced than Hulk in his 1st season, having participated in last two F1 races in 2009.

I don't say Force India's drivers would be trashing Sauber's drivers in the same machinery, but I'm also quite sure the opposite thing wouldn't happen.

...also another news last month was alguesuari beating his drums saying he'll race ''For Sure''. why don't ferrari take him instead of massa??? he's spanish and quiet talented, and young, so santander should love him. i don't see him doing any worse than massa ... ...

Alguersuari to Ferrari will not happen because:a) Alonso and Alguersuari don't get along well at all!b) Ferrari considers him no doubt too unexperiencedc) two Spanish drivers in the same team is not interesting at all for the sponsords of the teamd) Ferrari will never take a driver that Red Bull doesn't consider to be good enough to stay in their B-team Toro Rosso, makes no sense

This is a great article from Joe Saward about paydriver money vs. prize money+team image, frames quite nicely a lot of the shuffling going on right now.

Williams, as an example, has a deal with PDVSA for a Venezuelan driver – currently Pastor Maldonado – which is worth an estimated $55 million per season, although there are likely to be some commissions paid on this deal which will reduce the money that arrives at Grove. There was minimal risk for the team with such a deal because with ninth place in the Constructors’ Championship in 2010, plus Bruno Senna’s support amounting to a rumoured $12m, the team gained in the region of $60m, but only risked a tenth of that figure in terms of prize money. This meant that the team could invest in new engineers and improving its infrastructure. There was no doubt some image damage done to Williams, but it is easy to repair such things when money is available. You simply buy the best available drivers and everyone soon forgets the bad old days of pay-drivers.

When one understands the prize fund, one sees that it is more logical for a smaller team to take a risk and pay a half-decent driver a couple of million in order to be in a position to score points, rather than taking a pay-driver with a $10m budget. This is why Sauber had Kamui Kobayashi, Caterham has Heikki Kovalainen, Marussia has Timo Glock and HRT has Pedro de la Rosa. These men MUST prove their value against pay-drivers or face paid dismissal. Right now Glock’s future is not very bright as pay-driver Charles Pic has done a very decent job and Kovalainen needs to watch out as well because Vitaly Petrov has matched him all year.

Trying to extract silly season data from it is difficult though -- Joe's calculations tell him that Bruno Senna will be considered by Caterham and Sauber, and if Pic can keep raising sponsorship he'll ascend up the order.

A lot of the budgets in F1's midfield have shrunk greatly in the last couple of years, so prize money assumes a more critical importance for the teams. Driver line-ups might not be decided until teams know what share of the income they're getting. And there's a lot of room for change between fifth and eighth in the championship currently.

I agree FI drivers are better than Williams. And I'm not rating FI drivers lowly. I rate them and like them both. Just pointing out they havent yet shown as much brilliance as Kamui and Perez, who both showed its worth way more than 1 occasion over the years.

I don't think the post really shows the relation between FI and Sauber performance, but rather explains why Kobayashi has much fewer points than Perez. I still rate the FI drivers higher, but it's fairly difficult to find some objective measure when comparing young drivers in different seems, especially when skill levels are as high as in the current field. At least for Perez (and maybe Hulk if he replaces Massa), we'll find out soon enough.

I don't think the post really shows the relation between FI and Sauber performance, but rather explains why Kobayashi has much fewer points than Perez. I still rate the FI drivers higher, but it's fairly difficult to find some objective measure when comparing young drivers in different seems, especially when skill levels are as high as in the current field. At least for Perez (and maybe Hulk if he replaces Massa), we'll find out soon enough.

Who says the car will be podium scoring in their hands though? Totally not sold on the Sauber will win everything if X was driving omg lols line, I think both Kamui and Perez are exceptional talents. Kamui beat Heidfeld and De La Rosa pretty damn well in his first season and then faced Perez who McLaren grabbed ASAP when Lewis was gone. If they felt like it they would have gone for Di Resta or even Pastor, but they didn't. And Kamui is fairly close to Perez now and the faster of the two when running the same strategy. Perez is just freakishly good with tyres.

There is so much animosity towards Perez doing well because of the hate for the tyres shown by some, and his role in Lewis crap, so people have taken to talking down him and, by extension, Kamui. I think the Williams has been a faster car at more races this year, and Senna is just a pay driver who was equal with Chandok, so Pastor looks much much better.

Only in Japan was Sauber a car able to match the front runners on the same tyre strategy, or maybe Spa, but both Kamui and Pastor made mistakes there. Williams was damn quick in Spain, Valencia, Singapore to name some, but only one was converted to a podium. Koba holding off Button who had fresher tyres was as good as Pastor holding off Alonso, just people cared as in Spain it was for the win.

Force India drivers? Sutil was better than Di Resta and Rubens beat Hulkenberg in their first year, so I can hardly see how much better than either Sauber driver they were seeing as how neither of those drivers are in F1 any more.

Di Resta and Sutil beat both Saubers in 2011, but you're going to say it was all about the car, right? Or does that mean they're better? But now both Sauber drivers have beat them. You have to take the car factor into account. And the general consensus is that the Sauber is a very good car this year, and that they should already be beating Mercedes. So take that for what you will.

Di Resta and Sutil beat both Saubers in 2011, but you're going to say it was all about the car, right? Or does that mean they're better? But now both Sauber drivers have beat them. You have to take the car factor into account. And the general consensus is that the Sauber is a very good car this year, and that they should already be beating Mercedes. So take that for what you will.

No they didn't. Kamui outscored Di Resta.

Both cars are better than last year, because the front is a lot closer. Di Resta is already beating Sutil's points of last year.

What general consensus? Sauber may have been better since Belgium, and they are starting to overhaul Mercedes points now anyway. Both are past Schumacher's points haul.

Can I just remind you all that this is the silly season 2013 thread, not whether the FI drivers are better than the Sauber drivers. It is about news related to suspected moves and a bit of idle speculation of who would end up where. Although there is some merit discussing as to who you would put in a team based upon your reasons, it is not a driver vs driver thread.

Of course not. He's just saying something to get in the picture. Hugo Chavez was re-elected, so his sponsorship is safe, which means Williams will retain him. And he must be foolish to believe Ferrari, Force India or Sauber would take him. All three teams have better options available.

kobayashi admits seat not secure for 2013 and in dire need of sponsors and in threat from Gutierez with TELMEX backing

"Of course a sponsor could help for next year, but at the moment I have no sponsors to be here," Kobayashi explained. "It's very strange to need to find a sponsor to drive for another team or here (Sauber).

"At the moment of course the money is very important but basically I really want to be one of the top drivers with a good team. I want to be in Formula 1 and that's what I was dreaming of when I was young.

"Drivers should be thinking about the car and what to do with the car, but now it's complicated by a lot of sponsoring and what they can bring. I will try to stay in Formula 1 next year and show for the rest of the season what I can do."

I find it strange that Sauber feel the need to have two pay drivers, considering they're presumably keeping Telmex despite Sergio leaving because of Esteban. They seemed fine before having Sergio/Telmex and then Kamui. I'm not sure what has changed for them, plus they'll be getting a decent few more millions from finishing 6th or even 5th in the championship. Unless Force India pull off a remarkable end to the season...

Somewhat disappointed in the team in this regard. Or perhaps even though they are keeping Telmex, the money isn't as much with Sergio gone and perhaps they've also lost a few other smaller sponsors.

It's a strange situation, and especially with Kamui going public that it's his lack of sponsorship that's causing him issues.

I think the deal is actually through NEC Mexico and Perez, not Kamui. Interestingly Kamui went to NEC's headquarters in Tokyo this week, sucking up to them for sponsorship for next season perhaps?

that is just insulting, i don't get it, even toyota could sponsor him using DENSO moniker. not to forget scores of electronic manufacture from japan.

regarding TELMEX staying with sauber, i think they'll slash their sponsor following perez in mclaren. also monisha earlier said (japnaes gp skyf1 post race i think) that even though TELMEX is staying, many of perez's personal sponsor will move with him. so the situation may be worse than it seems.

that is just insulting, i don't get it, even toyota could sponsor him using DENSO moniker. not to forget scores of electronic manufacture from japan.

regarding TELMEX staying with sauber, i think they'll slash their sponsor following perez in mclaren. also monisha earlier said (japnaes gp skyf1 post race i think) that even though TELMEX is staying, many of perez's personal sponsor will move with him. so the situation may be worse than it seems.

TELMEX is not going to McLaren, at least not for 2013. That's confirmed.

From his other sponsors they would only lose Jalisco (Checo's home state). Interproteccion also supports Esteban Gutiérrez. As far as I know Diageo already has a double presence (Cuervo at Sauber, Johnnie Walker at McLaren), so Checo's departure doesn't change anything for them, Disensa was directly with Sauber and the situation changes little for them as well (Mexican folk in the car), same case with the "Mexico" brand.

Hopefully NEC de México will convince NEC HQ to pool some $$$ for Kamui. I think his visit to NEC in Japan could be a good sign. Even if it's the Mexican arm I doubt they would be in the car if there was nothing Japanese in the team!

Autosport also reported in today's print edition that the Sauber team management would prefer for Gutiérrez to be the team's third driver next year (presumably with some Friday drives this time), as they do not believe he is ready to move up to F1. However, they may have to promote him to a race seat in any case, depending on how important the Telmex funding is to the team's overall budget.

Autosport also reported in today's print edition that the Sauber team management would prefer for Gutiérrez to be the team's third driver next year (presumably with some Friday drives this time), as they do not believe he is ready to move up to F1. However, they may have to promote him to a race seat in any case, depending on how important the Telmex funding is to the team's overall budget.

That's not surprising, Gutierrez looked rather wild in GP2 these last two seasons. If he got to F1 I think it would be like 'Grosjean+'.