Thursday, January 13, 2011

Columbia Law School PR Machine Kicks Into Attack Mode

Reeling from a recent New York Times article in which law schools were exposed for cooking the books and turning their graduates into lifetime indentured debt slaves, many of whom wind up in cockroach infested document review facilities (something we have discussing here for over five years), the overcompensated, pampered shills in the law school administration offices have finally gone into attack mode.

Columbia (via a paid schill named Steven Gosset, who has been harassing bloggers ever since the story was released) claims that Jason Bohn, a temporary document monkey who was featured in the article, received his Juris Doctor from University of Florida and not from Columbia. Never mind the fact that he indebted himself with two degrees from Columbia to the tune of $200,000. Because of Columbia, at current rates, which continue to drop precipitously due to the American Bar Association's recent decision to allow entry-level legal work to be outsourced to India, Mr. Bohn will have to work 600 hours a year in the cockroach dungeon (or even worse with that nutcase "Jolly" John Thacher), every year for the next 30 years, just to pay off his loans. Outside of those 600 hours, Mr. Bohn will somehow need to find the time necessary to dig up another full time job so that he can gain legal experience, pay rent, buy health insurance, and save for retirement. Frankly, if I were in Mr. Bohn's shoes, I would seriously consider booking a one way plane ticket to southeast Asia, or in the alternative, heading over to Home Depot tonight, purchasing some rubber tube and adhesive tape, and putting the garage door down.

Paid schill Gosset in his exhortations seems to imply that such a catastrophic situation would never befall a properly credentialed Columbia Law School graduate. T14 grads drudging away in basements in a temporary capacity for $33 an hour is sadly, no longer an uncommon sight. God help those now who are currently graduating from lower ranked schools.

I have to say, $33/hour seems pretty good to me, even if it's in "grunt work". I recently got my master's in a hard science/engineering and I make 2/3 that in a temp/contract gig that is basically grunt work.

However, my rent is around 900 a month. I think some places, in NY especially, the rent is double that.

You want to express your disgust for these tactics and the ominous Press Office at Columbia University? Make sure to contact Steven at 2 in the morning and ask him how the school feels about violating a former student's privacy - when doing so will help the school's image.

Although, Shill Gosset's strategy may actually work against Columbia's august image.

Have fun. Call Steven Gosset at 2 in the morning, and report back here or on the scamblogs.

$33 @ 60 hours (which is the norm these days) is 1980. Or, $103,000 give or take. More likely take because he's not working 52 weeks out of the year in today's document review client.

40 percent or more percent of that is going taxes. $41000 give or take.

We are now down to 62k

Average rent in NYC- let's be crazy. let's go with 1750 (between the really high and the rent stabilized): Or 21,000

We are now down to 41,000

Health insurance is low in 350, and high end 1200. Let's split the difference at say 700. 700 x 12 is 8400.

We are now down to 32,600.

I am guessing he's going to want to eat. $100/week or 5200.

We are now down to 27,400.

Public transportation, no cars allowed under this budget. $1200

We are now down to 26,200.

Will he or she be saving for retirement? Unless he or she will be living on SS, the answer will be yes. The expected savings per year is 10 percent. That's 10 percent of 103,000 or 10,300.

We are now down to 15,900.

Now, let's start being realistic- doc reviews are not perm jobs. So, one must always save for the down periods when one is not working or other emergencies. Let's be really big risk takers. Let's make that 3-5 percent of income. So, let's go low at 3. Or, 1030 x 3. or 3100 or there abouts.

We are now down to 12,800.

He could pay off 200k in ten years at 6.8 percent interest if he pays 2300 a month or so. Since, 2300 per month is equal to 27600. That's out.

He could pay 1300 in 30 years. He still does not make enough to pay off the yearly amount due on the loan. At 1300, we are looking at 15600.

So, the only way that he or she can make enough money is to cut into basics. Cut retirement, which means he's dependent on conservatives to pay for his old age.

Not likely.

Or, he's going to have to cut other necessities like healthcare, housing, food?

Remember, all of this is based on a really cheap budget since we have not included grooming, clothes, up keep of having the degree such as bar dues and CLE, and I guess he or she doesn't want to date or meet anyone since they will be spending a lot of time at home.

He or she also can not become ill at any time. If they do, they are shit out of luck because they will lose that income.

They also can not during that 30 years want to take a vacation of any kind. 30 years, and they still won't have the capacity to pay off their debt.

By the way, the $145k is a first year associate. It doesn't include their bonus. It doesn't include that they are given lockstep pay raises by the second year that takes them to 200k a year and the higher from that point onward.

This is the reality of the numbers that no one talks about, but needs to be seen in real figures so that 0L can start to understand the reason why people say law degrees have a negative savings value.

The 1st anonymous is way off. Time and a half projects are no longer the norm. And you can't assume a full year of employment. I've been contracting for 4 years, and the most weeks I've had was 46. More likely you'll get between 40 and 46 weeks a year. And a lot of projects don't let people work extra hours anymore, so you get capped at 40. So instead of the 3600+ hours you think the guy can get, it's more likely he'll be somewhere between 1600 and 1900 hours, so perhaps he might make 53k to 63k not factoring in unemployment. That is not going to pay off $200k in loans in 30 years unless you live off the grid.

FYI, Columbia Law's server blocks incoming email from Gmail accounts. Not sure about other email accounts, like Yahoo or Hotmail, but I attempted to send Gosset an email from my Gmail account, and it bounced back as undeliverable, with a message that Columbia Law doesn't accept email from Gmail accounts.

I just wanted to tell Gosset that he's a douchebag, over and over and over again.

This is the *new civility*. See, when people have been screwed over, duped, and sold into a lifetime of low wage slavery and indentured servitude under the guise of "bettering oneself through education," traditional notions of "civility" no longer apply.

Traditional notions of "civility" are fine when everyone is well-off and plugged in. But, such notions of "civility" preserve the status-quo, accepting things as they are. Nothing changes if you're nicey-nice and "civil" to your oppressors.

PS, let's not allow Richard Matasar off the hook here. No mention was made of him in the New York Times article.

For those of you who don't know, Matasar is the dean of New York Law School, and chairman of Access Group student loan company AT THE SAME TIME.

Access Group is the default student loan provider at NYLS. Students are automatically assigned to Access Group upon applying for a student loan, and if they want a different lender, they must request one.

So, one hand really is washing the other at the most overpriced third tier toilet of them all: NYLS.

NYLS's new slogan is, "New York Law School: A Passion For Document Review."

Page 16 of New York Law School's 2009 IRS Form 990 - last entry on the page:

Richard Matasar, president of NYLS, (supposedly) worked 35 hours per week and "earned" $495,122 in straight salary, i.e. no other compensation. Yes, Matasar made FOUR HUNDRED NINETY FIVE THOUSAND, ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-TWO DOLLARS as predident of this sweltering stink pit - in one year!

the legal business is beyond screwed.. someone with a jd has no idea what to do.. hang a shingle.. document review for a few months.. click.. click.. click.. there are no real answers.. trying to learn the craft of lawyering and having a good attitude is probably the best idea..

but don't blame jon thacher.. just someone who worked his way into a paying gig.... no document project can be managed correctly.. it is against the laws of natural science..

and rofl @ $700/month for health insurance and $1,200/month for public transportation. Maybe if you didn't suck so many penises in law school you would not have caught the AIDS that apparently jacks up your health insurance and immobilizes you in a very expensive wheelchair.

three weeks ago i have big problem which is typical of all of us ! what shall do and how to go on living, I can not understand ((I stopped smiling at ALL!!!! :( yes!!,i have bad teeth because of heredity ... why it so? Teeth is the first thing you see when meet anybody,or doing smth like that, I have found a solution in putting lumineers ! and i can say it has guaranteed 100% result,also i think its a good decision

"# The national average for health care costs per person are increasing drastically each year. In 2007, the average cost per person for health insurance coverage was $7,421, which was an increase of 6 percent compared to the previous year. In 2008, the average cost for health care per person surpassed $8,000. The yearly increases for health care are outstripping inflation."

8:11 is right on the money. There is no way to survive doing doc review in NYC these days unless there's money coming from somewhere else, or you have some sweetheart deal - like parents paying the rent.

It used to be different. The "job" of doc reviewer has always been awful, but in the past you could at least earn enough to survive -even save. Imagine that!

But now, there's not enough work to go around. And when you have work, the wages are painfully low and/or they're being stingy with hours. And of course, most projects no longer pay OT anymore. Awesome.

I've lived in NYC for 25 years. My experience tells me that, depending upon your personal circumstances, (and knowing lots of people who do all sorts of different things for a living), you need to consistently clear at least $4000 - $5000 per month to live in this shit-hole. That means you have to (consistently) gross 75 - 90K per year.

Obviously, some people could get away with earning less, but some (like lawyers carrying debt) need more.

Doing doc review these days? Good luck making that kind of money.

Do some people continue to make good money doing doc review? Yes. But you're probably not one of them. And at any time, they won't either. I hope for their sake that they're not closing on a new apartment. They'll lose it.

Here's the funny part: most non-doc review legal jobs pay way, way less than doc review - even if you're an unemployed doc reviewer half of the time. Again ... awesome.

By the way, no one is whining about $33/hour. They are complaining about whether that amount is a living wage given the debt involved. For someone without our debt, $33, which is what most union jobs pay, is a fantastic salary, and a living wage in NYC.

For someone with a lot of student loan debt, when looking at the repayment plan, its not. The issue here is that you aren't very bright. I am sure that you will repeat yourself a 4th time not getting that is about a total budget. I also note you no longer claim my numbers are wrong as far as cost. That's because you are talking out of your ass. The minute I bring links- you repeat yourself saying the same old shit, and not really knowing what you are talking about.

The really is that this is not just lawyers, but anyone who faces a lot of debt, and whether they have the capacity to pay that debt back given their financial obligations such as food and shelter.

If they can not, if they must rely on third party sources, then they aren't making a living wage, and the debt incurred- on a basic financial level- is not worth it.

There really is no debating that one can not pay the 200k back on 33/hour unless you are a complete idiot.

We have not even gotten into the discussion of whether such jobs are going to last 30 years or not. The answer is, no- they will not.

So long term prospects, we are not talking economic stability that will allow for enough income overtime to do what you suggest one can do.

For that to occur, one would have to have economic stability. If they don't have it, they will need to set aside even more money to cover down turns in economic hard times rather than use that money to pay down debt

Moron Guy defends his position by saying that Craigslist ads say that the job pays OT. I guess Moron Guy has never worked through an agency. They lie about OT to get you on the gig. Then when you get there, there's no OT. You're capped at 40 hours. At least the ads that say you're not getting OT are honest. The fact is you're NOT getting OT in most jobs. We won't even get into how stupid reliance upon Craigslist ads is to defend a position on an issue, ... any issue. You're a moron.

2:27 PM, you are beyond hope. You are a moron. Yeah right ... 145K. That comes with: no days off ever. no vacation or vacation pay ever. No benefits ever. No sick days ever. No skill development ever. No chance for advancement ever. No nothing, ever. Never. Just 70 hours of doc review all week every week for 145K. I've met people like you. You think you're making "Biglaw" money. Yeah, while the gig you're on lasts. You are a moron. Seriously, you're a moron. I have say next to you on projects many times. You are a moron.

Can you blame the shill? The fact of the matter is, Jason Bohn did not accumulate the debt at Columbia Law and he did not get a degree from Columbia Law. It's unfortunate that Gosset resorted to what y'all perceive as "harassment," and clearly he is a shill with dubious motives, but the correction had to be made. Really, most of the blame should fall on NYT for its TTT reporting standards. It's not that difficult to find a Columbia grad (or a Georgetown grad or Harvard grad) who is stuck in temp/unemployment hell.

Lawyers “as a class” are NOT exempt from OT. A Lawyer working as a licensed lawyer may be exempt. A lawyer doing document review in NY can be a “JD,” or licensed in NJ, CT or any other jurisdiction. It is illegal to practice law in NY if not licensed in NY. Document Review is not the practice of law, which is why any admitted lawyer can participate. Likewise, someone licensed in New York doing Document Review next to a reviewer licensed in NJ is not practicing law. If the NJ or CT barred people (or the unadmitted) are doing the exact same work and analysis, then the work is not the practice of law in the State of NY.

The document review crowd is getting cheated by these slave traders because of the erroneous belief that all lawyers are exempt from OT. With the recent enactment of the new wage theft legislation, which allows TREBLE damages for all of you who have not been paid OT, start checking your options.

The only remedy to avoid OT is to limit hours to 40 per week max. Many of the agencies who do abide by the law have already begun that practice.

Those of you who have worked OT and have not been paid, file your complaint. Employers are subject to criminal penalties and a host of sanctions. Best scenario is to form a Union. UNITE!

Thank you (7:47 p.m.) I agree Doc Rev lawyers are not exempt and (like 7:33 AM) it is refreshing to read that someone on this blog actually knows the law. In fact, the ABA agrees that Document Review is not the practice of law.

Document Review could not be outsourced to India and performed by noncitizens who have never attended an American law school and never passed a test of any sort for competency in our laws if it were the practice of law. OT pay is required. The problem is (as the article and blog indicate) most grads are heavily indebted with poor employment options, leaving them vulnerable and unwilling to challenge illegal acts– much like illegal immigrants who feel they cannot complain. With so few options, no one wants to be blacklisted.

A union would be the best method to resolve the pay, OT and benefits issues. Lisa could finally get her braces. Get a union and turn the power of the union onto the ABA to stop outsourcing and challenge the power of “Big Law.”

1:44, it's a great idea, but those stuck doing eternal doc review will never organize because they're too afraid of the consequences, most prominently, starvation. For them, a little piece of bread is better than no bread. Doing something as radical as starting a union to take on BigLaw and the ABA would take guts, mas cajones, because you'd essentially be taking on The Establishment at it's most fundamental level - THE LAWGIVERS.

Also, you must remember that in the heyday of union formation in the late 19th and early 20th century, those organizing were almost all male, since the workers were pretty much all male. It's a proven fact that females are much more risk-averse than males, and with the number of females doing doc review, good luck getting them to risk even $30 an hour to make a point.

Also, unions were formed with bloodshed. People who didn't join and who tried to cross the union line were subject to beatings. Good luck trying to get physical with lawyers, especially females.

A union ain't going to happen.

I plan on just leaving the business. If I can't pay my studet loans, so be it. They can take my law license away, who cares? I don't use it. They can't put me in debtor's prison. So who cares?

After watching both my parents die in the last few years, I realize life is short, and when it's over, it's over. You might as well enjoy the time you have on this earth and not let The Establishment ruin your good time. Life is the Great Indulgence. Death is the Great Abstinence. So indulge and be happy while you're still breathing!

The reason why temps and other bad off lawyers being the majority of law graduates don't act, unionize, sue, or do anything is that if they did, it would be admitting that they made a mistake in going to law school and were doing the wrong thing.

Ever work with other temps? For all the bitching and moaning, none of them will ever tell you going to law school was a big mistake. They will tell you how it is "still a good move" blah blah blah.

You see, to do any of the actions you suggest would be an admission that you did something dumb, at a cost of 3 years of wasted time and $200,000.

When you spent your whole life trying to get ahead of the other guy, how can you admit that the people who goofed off in high school were right.

Going to ANY law school is not worth it unless you want to practice law. I knew in my second semester of my first year that I wanted to quit, but I listened to my well meaning, but clueless friends who said it would get better.

Screw Yale, Harvard and Stanford. You have a better shot of paying the debt off quickly at those schools, but you are still wasting years of your life.

You get out, and spend the next ten years paying off debt in a job you hate. If you are lucky and smart, maybe just 5-7. Its not a life sentence like doc review, but its not great.

That's a decade or more of your life that you are never going to get back. That's a lot of wasted potential.

I also knew after my first year of law school that it wasn't for me. But I was already $45,000 in the hole with student loans, and my parents were under the glamorous delusions of Hollywood as to how great being a lawyer was, so I stuck it out to the end and passed 2 bar exams.

8 years later, I was never able to find a permanent job. Doc review always sucked, but it was more tolerable making $40-$45 an hour, 70 hours a week in NYC at Skadden than it is now, struggling with massive student loan debt, making $30 an hour.

I like this string of comments, except of course the idiot who thinks he or she is making"Biglaw" money reviewing docs 70 hours a week.

The other comments are obviously from people who know the real deal. Law is drivel, and it's a waste of what otherwise could have been useful lives - and I'm not just talking about doc review.

I especially like the comment about doc reviewers not unionizing out of shame and embarrassment. Trust me, lawyers employed in "real" jobs suffer from the same disease.

Here's how it goes:

I posted a comment a few months ago on "First Tier Toilet." I think I was responding to some jackass who said unemployed or underemployed lawyers got what they deserved, because if they had just done some due diligence before going to law school they would have known law is a shit career.

This was the gist of my response: I did my due diligence before attending law school. I asked lawyers what they thought about the idea of going to law school. They all said it was a great idea. Turns out one of them had already been disbarred, and the others were making mailman wages ... but without the health benefits or pension. The point: lawyers are too ashamed and embarrassed to admit how shitty their lives are and what a poor decision law school was. But that's part of what perpetuates the illusion of the value of a law degree ... shame and embarrassment. And therefore, doc reviewers will never unionize.

Common wisdom has always said that education is a great thing. This is especially true of immigrants in the 20th century, who saw education as being one of the greatest things in the world.

They weren't wrong. I'd say it's definitely better to be educated than not. The problem is the COST kf education, and the student loan method of financing it.

If I only paid, say, $20,000 for my law degree, it would be a lot easier to make less, since I'd owe less. At upwards of $150,000 for a JD these days, without many jobs available, it's a huge rip off.

The education industrial establishment should be ashamed that it played on the sentiment and generally good common sense that an education is good, and twisted it by trapping people into a lifetime of debt slavery.

"A universal education for all!"

"Yes, I want to be educated! But I can't afford it."

"Don't worry, here's all the money you need, via student loans."

And then you graduate with your spiffy degree, saddled with tons of debt, and there are no jobs available, and the few that are don't pay enough for you to survive and pay back the loans.

I didn't go to a TTT. That's why I mentioned the marginal value of attending a top school. I went to a top 10. It doesn't change the fact that I wasted my time doing something that I don't like because I must pay off my loans.

Although 9:04 meant an insult with their post, I can't disagree with him/her. The vast majority of people who attended Third Tier law schools should not have gone to law school. They should never have been admitted, nor graduated, from law school, and in years past, they wouldn't have been. It would have been a blessing in disguise for them to have been rejected outright, rather than admitted and indebted to the tune of $150,000+ in student loans, with few, if any, job prospects upon graduation and bar passage.

When I said that going to law school was a waste but that ego/parents/a wasted life prevents temps from admitting this, I wasn't saying only for this or that law school. Being a lawyer in the US is a waste of time and money..... period.

Only a few temps here have the honesty to admit this. Even 1-2 above mention their parents pushing them and the fact that they had already invested in the first year.

Forgetting the parents point - parents almost always F their kids over with bad ideas, especially recommending things like law school that they nothing about because it is what they think they should have done but did not, the money and ego issues prevent temps and other lawyers from admitting they made a mistake. If you cannot say I went down the wrong road and if I had to do it all over again would not have, how can you ever go down a new road? The answer is you can't.

I have told people thinking of going to law school, almost 100% of whom have an expensive but worthless liberal arts degree, don't do it you'll regret it and base this on the majority of what other lawyers tell me not just what I think myself. They invariably say "I'm not going to practice law but it's a good degree to have," "It gives me an edge over an MBA because it's an extra year," "I wanted to be a lawyer since I was 5.... I am committed to doing this," "Just because it didn't work out for you doesn't mean this will be true for me."

Then later, they say, how come nobody told me. The truth is they were only listening to people who agreed with them. My parents couldn't have cared less if I went to law school.

It was my own ego and "keeping up with the Joneses" (I am better than the next guy) that made me do it.

Today, I am embarrassed to have gone to law school and don't even mention it to anyone. As I have noted most law school graduates do who go into other careers.

I know that all who care about improving legal education are indebted to Judith for her incredibly powerful contributions to the Carnegie team which produced Educating Lawyers. I very much look forward to reading this new piece.Law Degree Courses

Thank god for internet. It is making flaws of misinterpreted democracy correctible... Even though the US is doomed - education, health care, infrastructure? Yes, folks, socialist European countries have it so much better and anyone calling Obama a socialist is a bit brainwashed. Quality of life is incomparable.

Some US universities are really impressive with their research etc.However, what is also increasing the bills:-hugely overpaid administrators-sports teams of universities which should not even exist nor those expensive facilities-undergrads on spring break all over the world (unless paid for by cash, not credit)-overpriced books (have you noticed that when you buy international edition of the same book, it is usually cheaper yet with the same content?)-no need to educate everyone - it CHEAPENS the value of degree for all graduates!-European universities are in general more based on MERIT not CASH. If you pass entrance exams, you are in. If not, get out. In some cases, you can buy first year and attend with the lucky ones, but you do not have the status of a student - you must pass the entrance exams again. Which is also why a degree has a better value there since it shows better that you have some intellectual abilities and not trust fund/credit behind you.

It seems education is the next housing bubble and I am sorry for those who bought this lie.

The sad thing is you can make more $ as a paralegal w/ little debt, up to 70k +, you do the math suckers!! The sad thing is you can make more $ as a paralegal w/ little debt, up to 70k +, you do the math suckers!!The sad thing is you can make more $ as a paralegal w/ little debt, up to 70k +, you do the math suckers!!The sad thing is you can make more $ as a paralegal w/ little debt, up to 70k +, you do the math suckers!!The sad thing is you can make more $ as a paralegal w/ little debt, up to 70k +, you do the math suckers!!

This school does not impress me. I have met many law graduates from here - who 1. do not deserve to be in there. 2. Who do not do all that well after graduation. More recently, I have even met a psycho or two who got in because of a well-crafted sob story. A few chicks who majored in fine arts and creative writing at B -grade universities and got in to CLS saying they wanted to "help the poor" and work in "human rights". What school buys this shit these days??? As soon as these two ugly chicks received their JD they both promptly joined corporate law firms, got plastic surgery to cure their ugliness and are now enjoying a perfectly wonderful bourgeoise lifestyle. This school will buy any story but the truth.

The difference is that the market will eventually recover for Columbia grads. Not the same for other schools ranked below the top 50!

Honestly, I just don't understand how anyone after about 1980 could have taken out large loans to attend any law school not ranked at least 50 or above. There has been a glut of lawyers since at least the 1970's. This was never a secret. Didn't you people do any research before you took the plunge???

I always say that the biggest beneficiaries of law schools are NEVER the law graduates, but the law firms and other employers of law graduates.

Another beneficiary of law schools is the faculty and the administration running the law schools.

In this capitalistic society, why would the law school industry in general make the law graduates the biggest beneficiaries, when the people running the law industry are law firms, employers of law graduates, and the faculty??

As a corollary, college education in the US mainly benefits corporate America, who are the employers of college graduates. Education in America produces workers for corporate America, not citizens for the society.

If students didn't benefit they wouldn't attend. The fatal flaw in all of your arguments is that you presume these TTT students had potential, like, to quote Marlon Brado, they could have been somebody if not for the law schools.

They didn't, and they wouldn't have been.

They knew they were bound for miserable jobs, whether they attended law school or not. At least with law school they got a brief respite from their destined drudgery.

As usual, non lawyers think that lawyers do "so well" and what a good ticket it is.

This type of disinformation always comes from people like engineers and people's parents who don't know anything (as well as the law school PR machines).

No matter what law school you went to, which only helps for your first job out of school anyhows, a glut is a glut. It pushes down wages, conditions, and opportunities. The only thing you can do is to cut your losses and get into another business.

You'll be lucky to take $60k before taxes in a year with doc review. It's usually capped to 40 hours but there are a lot of weeks where you won't get that much either. And projects will end whenever and it can be difficult to get onto another one.

A few people may have been working consistently the past 2 years, but the vast majority haven't had much work, especially steady work.

I think that the negative comments aimed towards TTT Schools are far too general to deserve any credence. I can't speak for every TTT, but I know from personal experience that sometimes going to a TTT is the best option.

For example, the University of Maine School of Law (which has fallen below its #100 spot last year), mostly attracts students that live and want to practice in Maine. In-state tuition is very affordable, and law firms in Maine prefer Maine grads to out-of-state grads, regardless of the school they come from. The school has a really good reputation in Maine for producing great attorneys.

The stigma simply isn't deserved - and sometimes it's backwards. I spoke to one Maine Law grad who is a partner at a large firm in L.A., and he told me that his firm refuses to consider anyone who didn't graduate from a T10. He always protests, because it's just not true that you can make assumptions about a person's talent solely from the school they went to. He also mentioned that, for whatever reason, the vast majority of Harvard grads he interviews/hires have embarrassingly bad legal writing skills.

There are plenty of people who shouldn't be in law school - regardless of their school's rank. The stigma regarding TTT's is a shame, because it's inaccurate and harmful to the profession. These days, Maine grads don't have a chance outside of Maine because of the prevailing stigma regarding TTT's.

I know this will draw ire from many of you who feel that the last shred of dignity you have left are your top tier credentials. Based on your snotty comments (and the comments that will likely follow), I think there's a case to be made that your fat heads have devoured whatever dignity you had left.

great so if i graduated from some TTT, can enroll in maine law school and in three years bang presto i get a job, finally, in maine?wow do you have a time a machine so i can go back to when i first went to law school so i can select maine?your advice is useless, unless of course you went to maine law school and then bang ala kazaam you get a job on maine.

Are you telling me that Maine law school is a magic law school, it came from the same place jack got his magic beans and the rules of supply and demand do apply to maine law school grads getting a job in maine?

I disagree with the constant blogs and comments about "TTT" and "toiletlaw" like there is only one part of lawyers which is like a toilet bowl. No, it is the whole profession! Stop making it sound like if you go to a top 10 school it is a good deal, it sucks too, and you may even be more of a victim of the pyramid scheme structure which benefits only a few.

Wow, did you assholes even read his/her post? The post wasn't about the legal job market in Maine being full of job opportunities, or being the place for everyone. It was about the stigma attached to TTT's, as if they're full of a bunch of dim wits, and only produce bad attorneys.

The post simply said that the people who go to that law school, go there mainly because they want to practice there, the school has a good reputation there, and it's affordable. I guess it must be tough reading words with your heads so far up your asses.

Duh.You say that go to UMaine even if you don't want to work in Maine, you can use the degree somewhere else because it's a bargain. Still will cost you over $120,000 for three yrs. all in. You can live at home and go to an in state school cheaper.Maine is a tiny law school only 72 students per class. 100% of their grads work in Maine. Thus how can you say the fact that Maine has an economy based on timber is irrelevant?There's always someone in this profession to say "Law is good if you go to the right place" etc. which is why the situation never, ever improves.

What the fuck ... I posted the comment about Maine, and can't believe the response. I expected a bunch of assholes to criticize me, but not to do it with complete incompetence. Did you jerk-offs even go to law school?

One comment pointed this out already, but I'll say it anyway: I never said anything about the health of Maine's legal job market. The post was about telling all you top-tier fuck-wads that just because a person goes to a TTT, doesn't make them a dumb ass.

My point was that Maine Law has a good reputation in Maine and attracts smart people, but the people that go there generally go there because they live in Maine, want to stay in Maine, it's affordable, etc. Right now the job market there is as bad as any other region.

Then in comes the dumb ass @ 8:19, who doesn't understand this conversation at all. The only people talking about timber were the ignorant, illiterate jerk-off's mentioned above.

Also, if you knew how to read, you would know that I specifically said that Maine Law grads don't have a chance outside of Maine (or at least a slim one), because of the stigma associated with TTT's. Thus, no one is advocating to go to Maine, get a law education, then leave - this would be a terrible idea!

Finally, a friend of mine graduated Maine Law last year with a debt of 85k - she financed everything with loans. She makes 75k a year now in Portland - you know, dealing with the "timber," "traffic tickets," and all the other stereotypical bullshit people think goes on in Maine.

Thus my original and final point: If you live in Maine, want to work in Maine, want to save money and still get a good legal education, Maine law isn't such a bad idea.

Duh.Another person saying how "TTT people aren't dumb" .... yes they are, as is everyone who goes to law school.Another idiot saying "They did the right thing by going to law school."

Now, he is saying what a "good move" it is to go to U Maine because "smart people go there." Apparently the law school rankings disagree as they are not even top 100. But here's another person "thinking outside the bun" saying "Maine people are so smart!"

After admitting that these local yokels could only get a job in Maine with a U Maine law degree, he doesn't give a shred of evidence of why the economy, jobs, or salaries there are good.

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I hate the people that won't admit how bad of an idea getting a law degree was. This is the only degree I can think of that actually prevents you from getting more jobs than it can possibly allow you to get.

With any other degree employers do not consider a person a flight risk. People know the PhD in History is garbage so they'll hire somebody for grunt work. People know the MBA is useless so they'll hire an MBA at the UPS or to look over sales contracts for $16/hr to start.

But a JD is a liability and they all assume you will get a better job and then be gone. The truth is you'll never get that better job, and the only things you are really qualified for are shit law and doc review. And most doc review is now in India so it's not even a real option.

Anybody that seriously wants to argue with the strawman that somebody would actually complain about not only the mythical $145k salary but even anywhere close to $100k is a troll. Everybody would sign up for $100k. Hell, people would be thrilled at just $33/hr for straight 40 hour weeks 50 weeks a year. But that just doesn't happen now, there are very few doc review projects outside of maybe DC and India.

I got out of the doc review mill. Got lucky and was put on a project a few years ago that involved bank compliance (which also paid more than the usual doc review stuff, despite most of the people doing it not being attorneys). Experience on that project qualified me for other similar projects, which paid even more. Eventually parlayed that into a perm job at a bank. Am I getting rich? No. I'm currently making about the same as a doc reviewer who gets regular work and the usual NYC rate ($35-$40, no OT) and passes 60 hours every week (in other words, better than most people who do doc review).

But in my case, I get benefits, a bonus, perks, professional treatment by superiors, paid vacations, a low-stress 45-50 hours per week, I don't have to constantly be looking for work, I have an actual career path, etc.

My point is that if you want to save yourselves, you probably can. Granted, I kind of lucked into getting that first compliance gig, but I had the foresight to put the rest of my eggs in that basket and I got the hell out of the legal industry. Did that sting a little at first? Yeah, but when you think about it rationally, most people doing doc review are already out of it, anyway. I mean, selling concessions might technically qualify you as working "in" Major League Baseball, but when the Yankees need another arm in the bullpen, they aren't considering the peanut guy, no matter how far he can throw a bag of nuts.

Doing doc review for an extended period of time (a couple of years or longer) doesn't just hurt your resume, it can warp one's psyche and convince one that the things that are de rigeur for the doc review grind are somehow acceptable conditions for employment. They are not. Especially not for people who have demonstrated the ability and intelligence to obtain an advanced degree and pass a bar exam.

Saving yourselves requires the mental toughness to admit that the law career didn't work out as planned and that an exit strategy is *necessary*. Only a small percentage of those whose primary legal experience has been doing document review for a couple of years or more, will ever become a real attorney unless they strike out on their own or just get a lucky break with the help of a close personal contact. And let's be honest -- if you were ever going to hang up a shingle, you probably would already have done so (and thus would already know the misery of trying to eke out an existence doing that in the NYC area), and if you're waiting around hoping to get lucky... buy lottery tickets. Stop killing your future. Being able to make over $100K doing doc review (in a good year, and only because you worked almost all of your waking hours) isn't helping you have a better life, it's just buying you a better-looking coffin.

1:44/2:31 - I also don't believe a union would work, at least not a traditional union. What I had in mind would be like a union, but a little different. Experienced doc reviewers in each city band together, and then offer "elite" doc-reviewing to the firms at rates that are around half what the sweatshops charge the firms. By forming a company, there's no danger to the firm of establishing privity of contract with the actual employee, which they are loathe to do. And by cutting out the middleman, the reviewer gets higher wages and the firm pays lower rates. The advantage over India is that it would be cheaper.

In fact, since Bangalore sweatshops are just fine with the establishment, what's to stop me from starting a doc review firm called Tempolutions, LLC or something, and undercutting everyone else? Apparently a phalanx of qualified reviewers can be marshalled overnight by posting on craigslist.

In 2003 I was making $58k and living in a rent stablised 2 bedroom on the UES. I had no loan debt. I had enought to get by easy.

I attended law school from 2003-2006 and graduated cum laude from a school ranked in the low 40s.

I was offered a job at the New York City Law Department for $57k.

So after 3 years of law school I was offered a job which was quite difficult to obtain, which paid LESS THAN I WAS MAKING 3 YEARS EARLIER....and now I had $150k in student loans...or a payment of about $1300 a month!

I sat down and did the math...in about 2 seconds it was apparent that I could no longer afford to live in NYC! I would have been better off never going to law school.

I blame myself obviously....of course I did not forsee the crash....and you cannot control that.

This is the problem with lawyers. You say "why not have a union." But if you ever worked on a project (I have worked on a dozen) you would notice unlike union workers, doc review lawyers are sheep who sit in the corner cowering and quivering, kissing ass, and stabbing each other in the back. They are happy when people get let go because it makes them feel safer. How can you run a union with people like that?"I am an attorney. All I care is that I am better than the guy sitting next to me."

3.36 PM

a common story, the rule.Everyone would be better off not spending the time and money on law school, I do not even put it on my resume, it hurts me for jobs."I would go to law school again. It was the right move. I am an attorney and am prestige. I go home in a firm car. People look up to me."

"I am an attorney. It was the right move. I wanted to be a lawyer since I was 5. People look up to me. I had to do very complex work and write a law review article when I was in law school. I can think like a lawyer. No matter what I do in life, I will always have my J.D. degree with me. It's something good to have. It gives you an edge over the competition."

In fact, since Bangalore sweatshops are just fine with the establishment, what's to stop me from starting a doc review firm called Tempolutions, LLC or something, and undercutting everyone else? Apparently a phalanx of qualified reviewers can be marshalled overnight by posting on craigslist.

11:54 AM

Nothing is to stop you except the fact that you won't have the connections to get projects. These agencies are run by the good 'ol boys club. Hiring is also done by them in the first place.

In pretty much anything in life it's more important what connections you have, which are generally determined by the social class, race and economic class you are born into.

I am an attorney with a litigation firm in Los Angeles that is seeking law school graduates who were misled by their law school regarding the prospects for obtaining post-graduation employment. Specifically, we are interested in law school grads who have been unsuccessful in finding employment as an attorney and have more than $75,000 in debt from any of the following schools: Southwestern, Chapman, Golden Gate, Santa Clara, La Verne, Western State, Fullerton, Thomas Jefferson, Cal Western, University of the Pacific (McGeorge) and University of West Los Angeles. Please call me at 877-671-9879 if this comment applies to you.

Golden Gate is the scam law school of the century!They convince foreign students from quality overseas schools to go there paying full freight as if they can get a good job and that it is so prestigious to go there.They also hire foreign professors to provide "nurturing" to the foreign students.Golden Gate a/k/a "GaGa" or "GoGa" is not only toilet it is a clogged toilet overflowing with poop, piss, and smelly vomit!

And I was stressing out that I haven't gone to law school after all these years going by.

Not knowing the inner workings of the LAW path, I even visited a number of LAW schools and said to myself that I was missing out on such a wonderful academic training and eventual lucrative career.

And Yes I can get into a LAW program because I of my former tenure in the US Marines and other academic accomplishment. But I will no longer seek my own demise and perhaps just be content with my MBA and MS Finance which is enough to provide an above average salary with a lot less stress.

I'm also a contract attorney about to leave the biz for ever. Thatcher is as good as it gets in that world, believe me. I did a project with him and thought he was just great to work for and I made very good $. The industry is the thing that's completely messed up...not him. I believe that there are a number of managers who try to do the best they can but are constrained by a dysfunctional industry.

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I went to a good school on Long Island and am now swamped with $200k in unpaid ed debt, no job, and alimony and child support from my wife, the princess who turned out to be the witch from hell. The judge believes my ex that I am a lawyer and rich. I am ready to hang it all up. Is this my life?

I went to a good school on Long Island and am now swamped with $200k in unpaid ed debt, no job, and alimony and child support from my wife, the princess who turned out to be the witch from hell. The judge believes my ex that I am a lawyer and rich. I am ready to hang it all up. Is this my life?

10:12 PM

There aren't any good schools on Long Island. If the judge wasn't such a prick he'd know that your life was over.

Your ex-wife has better employment prospects than you do. If anything she should probably be paying YOU alimony. But that probably won't happen.

In general, excellent news. Lawyers in general produce no net wealth. They consume the wealth of private individuals, private sector profit centers, and add their aristocratic stipends onto government expenses.

With a gutted middle class and states, Feds in debt and business suffering - any work productivity gain through technology that helps diminish the lawyer drain on the country's money, is a positive step.

Make 50 to 60K a year as a lawyer in public service, then transfer to another government job that doesn't necessarily require a JD, then get out of law and claim you simply have no JD and only worked for the State.

This is the best way to launder out your 100+ K JD from your resume so you can then be considered for a hirer paying paralegal position.

What I personally did was get an AS in software engineering online from a public California Community College. Ironically, I now make more and work less as a low-level software engineer for a nobody company than 90% of my friends that stayed in law.

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