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pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21717
Loc: New York City

I mostly play classical but for jazz I only like solo playing. I never have been able to understand the appeal of the bass or drums playing with the piano.

I once asked a stride pianist(whose name I can't remember but he has been playing at an atrium on East 53rd street for many years)about the difference between solo and trio playing. He said something like they're just completely different.

So, Zapper, I can't wait to hear your recordings - please post some ASAP. Maybe we know you by another name - Keith Jarrett, perhaps or Bruce Hornsby, maybe Dick Hyman? Please let us know who you are . . . curious minds want to know. Unless, of course, you're just another south bound end of a north bound donkey.

boring performance, man you do nothing but promote yourself everywhere.

Well, I personally don't mind Dave promoting himself here, because 1) every working musician promote themselves one way or other 2) whether your like his style of playing or not, he is a professional player with very unique and amazing set of qualities, and there are plenty of people here who appreciate him sharing his creative output here 3)regardless of who you are it takes a lot of courage to put your music out there, and I respect people for that.

So do you have anything better to contribute other than trash talking on other people's creative output?

You don't have to like what someone is doing, but at least show some respect man. You are just being rude and you really aren't adding anything meaningful to this conversation.

boring performance, man you do nothing but promote yourself everywhere.

I cannot help but notice that in this particular forum it always seems like there is always someone ready and willing to take a cheap shot at someone else whenever the opportunity presents itself. I notice it here more than any other forum.

Either that, or a very controversial topic gets started and then everyone gets surprised that others are offended.

I mostly play classical but for jazz I only like solo playing. I never have been able to understand the appeal of the bass or drums playing with the piano.

I once asked a stride pianist(whose name I can't remember but he has been playing at an atrium on East 53rd street for many years)about the difference between solo and trio playing. He said something like they're just completely different.

The best way to describe it is, think of what it is like to play with a classical ensemble, and expand that idea into all the things you do in terms of improvisation. If you have a really good bassist and drummer, they can follow you wherever you go and vice versa. You can reharmonize the song as you go and they can follow you, you can play different polyrhythm and they can follow you.. or they might not follow you and play a completely different polyrhythm under you while you improvise, but still playing together in one flow. You might start in You can start playing dotted quarter notes, triple grouped in 4(3/4), or groupings of 5 16ths notes(quasi 5/4 I call it), rhythmically you can go anywhere.

I've see groups where they will play a tune, but go completely free in the middle. It sounds like free jazz but if you pay attention they are actually keeping the form in their head the entire time. They can go back to playing the tune any time they wanted and they would be in the exact same place in the form. IMO you really don't get this kind of musical communication in classical music or solo jazz improv.

I mostly play classical but for jazz I only like solo playing. I never have been able to understand the appeal of the bass or drums playing with the piano.

I once asked a stride pianist(whose name I can't remember but he has been playing at an atrium on East 53rd street for many years)about the difference between solo and trio playing. He said something like they're just completely different.

The best way to describe it is, think of what it is like to play with a classical ensemble, and expand that idea into all the things you do in terms of improvisation. If you have a really good bassist and drummer, they can follow you wherever you go and vice versa. You can reharmonize the song as you go and they can follow you, you can play different polyrhythm and they can follow you.. or they might not follow you and play a completely different polyrhythm under you while you improvise, but still playing together in one flow. You might start in You can start playing dotted quarter notes, triple grouped in 4(3/4), or groupings of 5 16ths notes(quasi 5/4 I call it), rhythmically you can go anywhere.

I've see groups where they will play a tune, but go completely free in the middle. It sounds like free jazz but if you pay attention they are actually keeping the form in their head the entire time. They can go back to playing the tune any time they wanted and they would be in the exact same place in the form. IMO you really don't get this kind of musical communication in classical music or solo jazz improv.

When I saw PL's observation I was at a loss for words. You're doing a better job then I can etc. trying to verbalize. It's almost like Louis Armstong said when someone asked him what jazz was..."If you gotta ask, you'll never know" ...or something to that effect.

How can you verbalize something that deep and expansive that is at the very core of jazz performance ? The interplay and spontaneity between the trio and/or backing up a horn player or singer. It's what makes jazz jazz. Solo playing is great, without a doubt the most challenging of all jazz contexts to perform in. However playing in a group, a whole different set of skills are required. The level of music created in such classic trios as Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett, Herbie Hancock, McCoy Tyner, Chick Corea...just to name a few of the most popular ones--well if you can't hear it and gotta ask well...I'll leave it to someone else to type out an explanation.

Definitely not cool zapper/offnote/delirium. Your dislike of jazz and jealousy of people that play it well have long been in evidence from your offhand and immature posts here and on the KC forum.

Thanks I agree with you, in the end it's really about the experience of connecting with other musicians in a deep spiritual level and there really is no words for that. All those things I mentioned above are just tools to experience that deeper. I remember reading about how Keith Jarret, Gary Peacock and Jack Dejohnette have outer body experience every time they play.

This is why for me, the stuff Miles did in the late 60's is pinnacle of what jazz can be.

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21717
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

Originally Posted By: etcetra

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I mostly play classical but for jazz I only like solo playing. I never have been able to understand the appeal of the bass or drums playing with the piano.

I once asked a stride pianist(whose name I can't remember but he has been playing at an atrium on East 53rd street for many years)about the difference between solo and trio playing. He said something like they're just completely different.

The best way to describe it is, think of what it is like to play with a classical ensemble, and expand that idea into all the things you do in terms of improvisation. If you have a really good bassist and drummer, they can follow you wherever you go and vice versa. You can reharmonize the song as you go and they can follow you, you can play different polyrhythm and they can follow you.. or they might not follow you and play a completely different polyrhythm under you while you improvise, but still playing together in one flow. You might start in You can start playing dotted quarter notes, triple grouped in 4(3/4), or groupings of 5 16ths notes(quasi 5/4 I call it), rhythmically you can go anywhere.

I've see groups where they will play a tune, but go completely free in the middle. It sounds like free jazz but if you pay attention they are actually keeping the form in their head the entire time. They can go back to playing the tune any time they wanted and they would be in the exact same place in the form. IMO you really don't get this kind of musical communication in classical music or solo jazz improv.

When I saw PL's observation I was at a loss for words. You're doing a better job then I can etc. trying to verbalize. It's almost like Louis Armstong said when someone asked him what jazz was..."If you gotta ask, you'll never know" ...or something to that effect.

How can you verbalize something that deep and expansive that is at the very core of jazz performance ? The interplay and spontaneity between the trio and/or backing up a horn player or singer. It's what makes jazz jazz. Solo playing is great, without a doubt the most challenging of all jazz contexts to perform in. However playing in a group, a whole different set of skills are required. The level of music created in such classic trios as Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett, Herbie Hancock, McCoy Tyner, Chick Corea...just to name a few of the most popular ones--well if you can't hear it and gotta ask well...I'll leave it to someone else to type out an explanation.

Definitely not cool zapper/offnote/delirium. Your dislike of jazz and jealousy of people that play it well have long been in evidence from your offhand and immature posts here and on the KC forum.

Excellent job as always Dave.

Not sure if the "your dislike of jazz" comment was directed at me, but if so, it's totally off base and complete nonsense. I do like solo jazz piano by far the best and simply said that, for me, the bass and drums do not add much(or actually for me, they subtract).

Realizing that some certainly feel differently about the contributions of bass and drums, I was hoping to get some replies(and I did get one) that explain their thoughts about this. But I find "if you can't hear it and gotta ask well" comment incredibly rude. I have no idea what the KC forum mentioned in that post is.

Even in classical music, I mostly prefer solo piano to chamber music, but there I find the sound of other instruments in, for example, in a piano trio or piece for violin/piano far more appealing.

I've never played in a piano trio - just solo and larger (mostly rock) ensembles. I've always thought that what would make trio playing especially different was the left hand. In solo playing, the left hand plays both bottom and middle - think of stride playing - both the "oom" and the "pah" (as in ommpah), if you will. In larger ensembles, the left hand is more often serving as an extension of the right (or else in the way). In a trio, the left hand is playing the middle, but not the bottom - which is handled by the bass. Playing the middle off the bass player instead of its own little finger. Just an entirely different sort of coordination. I'd love to try it, but I'd expect it would take some getting used to.

Definitely not cool zapper/offnote/delirium. Your dislike of jazz and jealousy of people that play it well have long been in evidence from your offhand and immature posts here and on the KC forum.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Not sure if the "your dislike of jazz" comment was directed at me, but if so, it's totally off base and complete nonsense.

If I may take the liberty . . . Like so many of us writing in this less-rigorus medium, Dave left out a little punctuation detail - a couple of commas, indicating direct address:

Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

Definitely not cool [ , ]zapper [ , ]/offnote/delirium.

Equally, I believe Dave Ferris' paraphrase of Louis Armstrong was intended to be more off-hand, and even self-evident, than "incredibly rude". Many of us who play, and enjoy listening to jazz, simply take-for-granted that there is an incredibly large number of instrumental combinations that work well in the medium - from solo guitar at one extreme, to big band and jazz orchestras at the other. (Not really any different than the classical/serious genre.) While most of us have our favorite ensemble combinations, I believe very few would think of an upright bass and drums "getting in the way of" a good piano player. The solo, the trio, the sextet, and the big band are simply different means of expression.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I once asked a stride pianist(whose name I can't remember but he has been playing at an atrium on East 53rd street for many years) . . .

That would be THE Atrium, by the way.

Ed

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

I've never played in a piano trio - just solo and larger (mostly rock) ensembles. I've always thought that what would make trio playing especially different was the left hand. In solo playing, the left hand plays both bottom and middle - think of stride playing - both the "oom" and the "pah" (as in ommpah), if you will. In larger ensembles, the left hand is more often serving as an extension of the right (or else in the way). In a trio, the left hand is playing the middle, but not the bottom - which is handled by the bass. Playing the middle off the bass player instead of its own little finger. Just an entirely different sort of coordination. I'd love to try it, but I'd expect it would take some getting used to.

I've rarely played with anyone else for many years (though I'm hoping to start again soon). When I did, I found I had a handicap: I relied on the left hand to keep track of the chords. Worse, I usually play stride or walking bass, which in this case meant I was walking on the bass's lines (so to speak).

I guess comping with the left hand is one solution, but I'll feel I've really nailed it when I've got the chords so well internalized that they just flow by and I know where they are without having to play them.

I once asked a stride pianist(whose name I can't remember but he has been playing at an atrium on East 53rd street for many years) . . .

That would be THE Atrium, by the way.

Only if you know there is one atrium on that street. Since I don't know that my statement is correct.(Not that it's really worth even bringing up to begin with).

Well, continuing the nit-picking, those of us who follow the jazz scene are familiar with the series "Jazz at THE Atrium - a renowned venue near the corner of Lex and 53rd. Were you referring to some other atrium on that street?

Ed

_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

You don't have to like what someone is doing, but at least show some respect man. You are just being rude and you really aren't adding anything meaningful to this conversation.

Rude? I'll tell you what's being rude. Rude is telling I like something while I really don't and being rude is also spamming every forum with his performances to get more students for his classes in NYC and sell more of his music books. There is a special section on the forums to post someone's music.

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21717
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: LoPresti

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Originally Posted By: LoPresti

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I once asked a stride pianist(whose name I can't remember but he has been playing at an atrium on East 53rd street for many years) . . .

That would be THE Atrium, by the way.

Only if you know there is one atrium on that street. Since I don't know that my statement is correct.(Not that it's really worth even bringing up to begin with).

Well, continuing the nit-picking, those of us who follow the jazz scene are familiar with the series "Jazz at THE Atrium - a renowned venue near the corner of Lex and 53rd. Were you referring to some other atrium on that street?

You don't have to like what someone is doing, but at least show some respect man. You are just being rude and you really aren't adding anything meaningful to this conversation.

Rude? I'll tell you what's being rude. Rude is telling I like something while I really don't and being rude is also spamming every forum with his performances to get more students for his classes in NYC and sell more of his music books. There is a special section on the forums to post someone's music.

I checked Dave's comment history, he is mostly posting his videos on non-classical. I haven't seen him promoting his video where it wasn't relevant.

If you have problem his self-promoting, by all means criticize the content, report him to the moderator. But You don't get any respect for calling people names and making ad-hominen attacks. That's childish and you are the one being rude here