dyre:edit: regarding your edit, yeah, that makes some sense, though I can still see a lot of problems coming up with interaction with those animals

You don't interact with them--that's the point. Take the lion, for example. Here you have this powerful, massive beast that sees in the dark and hunts large animals. It's very voice spooks all other life for miles around. You don't know what it is. All you know is it's much better than you. No one ever goes near them and anyone who comes into contact with one dies. They tell stories about them and their existence takes on an almost mythical air.

To primitive man, that's something to fear, to respect and to learn from. Warriors want to look like them, they channel their spirit to strike fer into their enemies and to give them bravery. All the hunters want to hunt like them and catch the big animals. When something goes bump in the night, the children don't think it's the boogeyman, they think it's a lion come to kill them.

Pretty cool stuff, I guess. I forgot how weak we used to be as a species :P

dyre:edit: regarding your edit, yeah, that makes some sense, though I can still see a lot of problems coming up with interaction with those animals

You don't interact with them--that's the point. Take the lion, for example. Here you have this powerful, massive beast that sees in the dark and hunts large animals. It's very voice spooks all other life for miles around. You don't know what it is. All you know is it's much better than you. No one ever goes near them and anyone who comes into contact with one dies. They tell stories about them and their existence takes on an almost mythical air.

To primitive man, that's something to fear, to respect and to learn from. Warriors want to look like them, they channel their spirit to strike fer into their enemies and to give them bravery. All the hunters want to hunt like them and catch the big animals. When something goes bump in the night, the children don't think it's the boogeyman, they think it's a lion come to kill them.

Pretty cool stuff, I guess. I forgot how weak we used to be as a species :P

If not for our brains, we're pretty much right down there with earthworms XD

Of course, any furry who considers him/herself not human is delusional, because biologically, he/she is indeed human. You can't think away your species.

I'm not sure about that, I mean for most of human history we worshiped animals and had ideas about being possessed by animal spirits, its weird but people are farken weird.

I'm not aware that we worshiped animals for most of human history...I mean, maybe we worshiped gods with animal-like features, but straight up worshiping bears or tigers? I hadn't heard about that.

Besides, none of those people thought they were animals (that is, non-human members of the animal kingdom), or if they did think so, they were wrong.

edit: I'm probably being a little harsh on any animal-spirit religions that might have existed. I guess if they believe there are animal spirits, more glory to them. But I'm pretty sure these people still believed they were humans, and heck, it beats thinking you're not human simply because you wear a fursuit or like pictures of wolf-like humans :\

Even today we tend to use animal terms for things, you call a guy a stud and its a compliment, we have animal mascots for countries. We are still very caught up in animal worship, we just don't call it that. And one thing that allot of people forget, is that humans are still animals. I always got the impression the suits was more about wishing you could be something else, instead of thinking you are something else.

DANEgerous:I can see their point, I mean humans as a whole do kind of suck. I mean Polar bears do not hat Black bears, they do not go to war, they rarely if ever kill out of spite.

That's only because Polar Bears and Black Bears never encounter each other in the wild.

If they shared a common territory, the Polar Bears would totally eradicate the Black Bears, killing them because they're competitors for food and territory (and killing them for food).

Polar Bears (and other animals) often kill their young, both for food and to deny the presence of another male.

They don't do this out of hate or spite because those are human emotion and it would be anthropomorphism to put those onto animals, but that doesn't mean they don't kill each other for territory and resources like humans do, the only difference is that we attribute negative emotions as reasons for our actions.

Animals, especially carnivores in difficult environments, aren't any less murderous than humans, the only difference is that they haven't evolved the intelligence and technology, nor have the organisation and numbers, to wage large wars beyond their natural habitats. If all the animals in the world shared a common territory, eventually there would only be one Apex Predator, the rest would be food or extinct.

I'd even say humans are better than animals because we have the concept of morality and can acknowledge that killing is wrong. We often use our free will and morality to contradict and deny our base animal instincts.

Grey Day for Elcia:It turns out a considerably large portion of the furry fanbase describe themselves as bisexual or homosexual and a small fraction (1-9%) admitted to zoophilia, with most (about 80%) of furries being men.

This is an interesting topic and I can't even begin to imagine why it is so.

Because it's about furries and it isn't being accusatory?

You familiar with Lil' Miss Rarity? The creator, Lil' Miss Jay, talked about the furry community on FA and why he left it. I can't fucking find it though. GODDAMMIT.

I'm not sure about that, I mean for most of human history we worshiped animals and had ideas about being possessed by animal spirits, its weird but people are farken weird.

I'm not aware that we worshiped animals for most of human history...I mean, maybe we worshiped gods with animal-like features, but straight up worshiping bears or tigers? I hadn't heard about that.

Besides, none of those people thought they were animals (that is, non-human members of the animal kingdom), or if they did think so, they were wrong.

edit: I'm probably being a little harsh on any animal-spirit religions that might have existed. I guess if they believe there are animal spirits, more glory to them. But I'm pretty sure these people still believed they were humans, and heck, it beats thinking you're not human simply because you wear a fursuit or like pictures of wolf-like humans :\

Even today we tend to use animal terms for things, you call a guy a stud and its a compliment, we have animal mascots for countries. We are still very caught up in animal worship, we just don't call it that. And one thing that allot of people forget, is that humans are still animals. I always got the impression the suits was more about wishing you could be something else, instead of thinking you are something else.

I suppose attributing animal-like qualities to humans in a positive manner can be seen as sort of a desire to attain some characteristics of an animal, but I don't think any "stud" would claim to be part horse :P

Yeah, I sort of figured that too about suit-wearers, but apparently almost half of them think they're not actually 100% human. I wonder what the other x% is, lol.

As well was worshiping animal-spirits, people used to worship forces of nature. Storms, earthquakes, floods. Basically anything we didn't understand that was powerful enough to wipe us out in the blink of an eye got personified so we'd have something to beg, plead and bargain with for a chance to live another day. Also sacrificial feasts to appease the biggest animals after/before a hunt (elks and bears here in Finland) were common when you go back far enough (the time of course varies by region).

Although I don't consider myself a furry, I'll admit to sometimes being so confused and depressed with all the horrible **** you see about on the news that I found myself wondering whether I had anything in common with the people doing this kind of stuff. Either they weren't human or I wasn't because trying to understand why some people do the stuff that goes on in the world on a daily basis had me convinced we couldn't be of the same species. But maybe that's just my own messed up bouts of depression talking.

I find the concept of trans-humanism fascinating, though. Something like Warren Ellis's Transmetropolitan (note: very, very NSFW), although that wasn't his main point with that particular series. But like someone here on the thread said, if the technology existed to (safely) alter yourself on the genetic level to gain new traits, how many of us would 'remain base-line human'? I'd bet the number would be lower than you'd think.

I hate coming late to topics like this as I'm certain people have already said what I'm going to say but I've no patience to read through 4 pages worth of comments to make sure.

As such I'll simply say it:

This should be rather common knowledge really. It's no different than transexuals saying "I'm a man trapped in a woman's body" or "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body." People who envision themselves as being something they're not often feel deeply and psychologically that they are what they "feel like" being. Just as a man who wants to become a woman will most likely say "I really feel like I'm a woman, and I want my outside to represent that", I don't find it surprising that furries would say they feel like they're really animals.

I'm not aware that we worshiped animals for most of human history...I mean, maybe we worshiped gods with animal-like features, but straight up worshiping bears or tigers? I hadn't heard about that.

Besides, none of those people thought they were animals (that is, non-human members of the animal kingdom), or if they did think so, they were wrong.

edit: I'm probably being a little harsh on any animal-spirit religions that might have existed. I guess if they believe there are animal spirits, more glory to them. But I'm pretty sure these people still believed they were humans, and heck, it beats thinking you're not human simply because you wear a fursuit or like pictures of wolf-like humans :\

Even today we tend to use animal terms for things, you call a guy a stud and its a compliment, we have animal mascots for countries. We are still very caught up in animal worship, we just don't call it that. And one thing that allot of people forget, is that humans are still animals. I always got the impression the suits was more about wishing you could be something else, instead of thinking you are something else.

I suppose attributing animal-like qualities to humans in a positive manner can be seen as sort of a desire to attain some characteristics of an animal, but I don't think any "stud" would claim to be part horse :P

Yeah, I sort of figured that too about suit-wearers, but apparently almost half of them think they're not actually 100% human. I wonder what the other x% is, lol.

I don't know, it seems like most guys would love to hear they are "hung like a horse", despite the fact that over a certain size is more attractive to other men than women. Plus you have the whole were wolf thing, that is literally someone wanting to be able to unleash the beast within or get fucked by a wolf or something, I don't get the whole girls loving twilight thing so I might be wrong with that.

The other % is probably whatever spirit animal whatever thing they wish they were more like.

Even today we tend to use animal terms for things, you call a guy a stud and its a compliment, we have animal mascots for countries. We are still very caught up in animal worship, we just don't call it that. And one thing that allot of people forget, is that humans are still animals. I always got the impression the suits was more about wishing you could be something else, instead of thinking you are something else.

I suppose attributing animal-like qualities to humans in a positive manner can be seen as sort of a desire to attain some characteristics of an animal, but I don't think any "stud" would claim to be part horse :P

Yeah, I sort of figured that too about suit-wearers, but apparently almost half of them think they're not actually 100% human. I wonder what the other x% is, lol.

I don't know, it seems like most guys would love to hear they are "hung like a horse", despite the fact that over a certain size is more attractive to other men than women. Plus you have the whole were wolf thing, that is literally someone wanting to be able to unleash the beast within or get fucked by a wolf or something, I don't get the whole girls loving twilight thing so I might be wrong with that.

The other % is probably whatever spirit animal whatever thing they wish they were more like.

I don't think any guy would actually literally want a dick the size of a horse's though (I can't be sure though...how big is a horse's penis anyway?). That seems like the sort of thing that would bring up all sorts of problems in real life. I too, do not have a full understanding of the Twilight/vampire/werewolf thing so I'm afraid I cannot comment on that.

I guess people can think whatever they want, but in the end they're still a member of the homo sapiens species.

There's a long history of people spiritually identifying with animals, some more literal than others. With, say, many Indian traditions, animals are used both as largely symbolic elements for Gods, but also generally in the canon of "sentient beings," that anyone can be reincarnated into, given the right circumstances.

And, you know, if say, someone from a Native American tribe that traditionally believed that humanity came from bears or something, identifying with the image and idea of the animal seems perfectly reasonable. And if people today take that in a secular direction, with using, say, the arcetype of an animal as a source of hope/encouragement/comfort, fine. You look to emulate your idea of a patient and enduring Spirit Elephant to get you through a rough time? Some people use Saints, or a god from a pantheon or something.

If you show this identification with game or forum avatars? You're getting a little geeky. Just using an animal because you think its kool? Sorry, but you're a total nerd. (Nothing wrong with that here, of course)

What just kills me though, is when people who don't actually know or refuse to understand the first thing about the animal in question is an animal. You know, when someone wants to be a dog because they saw a drama/fighting anime where they fight giant demon bears like an organized (and very japanese) military and think that's honestly what dogs are like. Its disconcerting and it really does feel like someone's living in a delusion. No, the dog is not trying to talk to you with its eyes, its staring at your hamburger.Things like that.

The thing about this behavior is that its the same out-of-control daydreams of someone who believes they'll be whisked away by vampires or go to Hogwarts or something.I don't think that most of them actually have some strange predisposition or affinity for animals, they're just bored out of their mind with their lives. And animals are just the flavor of fantasy they've escaped to.

People think furries are something strange and bizarre, but I don't think its really that different from any fandoms or fantasies. The only issue at hand is that it has a bit of a tangential relation to boning something that can't give consent.

I still don't get it, though. Why would you identify with some smelly animal that would get fur and feathers all uncomfortably jammed in their stylish hoodies when you can have future science robots?!Much, much more appealing.

RJ 17:I hate coming late to topics like this as I'm certain people have already said what I'm going to say but I've no patience to read through 4 pages worth of comments to make sure.

As such I'll simply say it:

This should be rather common knowledge really. It's no different than transexuals saying "I'm a man trapped in a woman's body" or "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body." People who envision themselves as being something they're not often feel deeply and psychologically that they are what they "feel like" being. Just as a man who wants to become a woman will most likely say "I really feel like I'm a woman, and I want my outside to represent that", I don't find it surprising that furries would say they feel like they're really animals.

While I don't think there's a full explanation for transsexuality, there's at least a plausible basis for it being biological in origin. For feeling like a different species though? Now that would be kind of hard to happen.

1) Is the term "furry" technically accurate? I mean, the fandom is meant to encompass general interest in anthropomorphic creatures, but animals like lizards don't have fur (nor do they have breasts, but whatever).

2) Aren't the only "real furries" that think of themselves as wholly non-human are the feral ones? I think I watched a programme a while ago of this boy that'd been raised in the wild with a pack of wolves or something, and he acted just like them.

Besides, if these people really believed that they weren't entirely human, how could they even talk through human language or understand the interviewing process?

3) I don't know how being a furry is remotely related to sexual orientation, unless you count zoophiles. But it sounds like it's one step away from becoming a stereotype, like the prejudiced notion that all homosexual men are into BDSM.

Tom Milner:humanity is a state of mind, as well as matter. if they see themselves as more than human, then all credit to them for having a healthy mind and imagination.

Well, their DNA says they are wholly part of the human species. So it is indeed a case of mind, but not so much matter.

Actually we have quite a lot of surprising crap floating around in our genetic material. I''m fairly sure we've got genes in there left behind by retroviruses and the like. Not sure how any of that explains furries buuuut...

dyre:Besides, none of those people thought they were animals (that is, non-human members of the animal kingdom), or if they did think so, they were wrong.

You'd be surprised. Very recently I studied the concept of animism within certain cultures. The belief that humanity is subject to context is actually very commonly held, especially outside of Western philosophy. We tend to think of things in terms of very strict black-and-white concepts ("This is a human, this is a dog"), but a lot of people in other parts of the world think it's foolish to make judgements based solely on physical characteristics or arbitrary distinctions.

For example, the Yukaghir believe that when you behave like an animal, your soul actually starts to transform and you start becoming the animal. So that if you spend years in the forests living with wolves, you will eventually be a wolf, even if your body looks human.

And really who's to say that's wrong? What's the difference between "a man who has spent too much time in the wild and has lost touch with the behavioural norms of human society" and "a man who has become a wolf"?

dyre:Besides, none of those people thought they were animals (that is, non-human members of the animal kingdom), or if they did think so, they were wrong.

You'd be surprised. Very recently I studied the concept of animism within certain cultures. The belief that humanity is subject to context is actually very commonly held, especially outside of Western philosophy. We tend to think of things in terms of very strict black-and-white concepts ("This is a human, this is a dog"), but a lot of people in other parts of the world think it's foolish to make judgements based solely on physical characteristics or arbitrary distinctions.

That said, I recall you mentioning you partake in Furry art and therefore might have a good view on the Fandom. If you don't mind me asking, what is your personal experience with the community at large and how would you see the motives of most furries for, well, being furries?

In a 2008 study by Gerbasi et al., 46% of people surveyed who identified as "furry", (usually defined as a person with a strong connection with some sort of animal), answered "yes" to the question "Do you consider yourself to be less than 100% human?"

Yeah, I laughed. For about 5 minutes. I mean clearly they need to see someone about that, but... fucking hell.

I was just reading something kind of cool; a couple of studies found a large portion of self-described furries consider themselves not entirely human in one way or another. It seems for some, it goes well beyond roleplay.

First day on the internet I see. Best wishes to the rest of your surfing.

dyre:Besides, none of those people thought they were animals (that is, non-human members of the animal kingdom), or if they did think so, they were wrong.

You'd be surprised. Very recently I studied the concept of animism within certain cultures. The belief that humanity is subject to context is actually very commonly held, especially outside of Western philosophy. We tend to think of things in terms of very strict black-and-white concepts ("This is a human, this is a dog"), but a lot of people in other parts of the world think it's foolish to make judgements based solely on physical characteristics or arbitrary distinctions.

I am reminded of English teachers.

Not sure exactly what you mean.But if you meant that "the West are happy enough calling a spade a spade and the Rest like to over-complicate it with bullshit" I think you've misunderstood.

Western thought tends to be rooted in concepts such as Descartes' mind-body duality and the sense that the world can be delineated into a series of reductive components (e.g. atoms) and concepts (e.g. nations). Which causes a lot of problems when the real world doesn't quite fit that model. Non-Western cultures, on the other hand, tend to embrace the chaos of reality and the fact that most concepts can't be cleanly separated from each other.

dyre:Besides, none of those people thought they were animals (that is, non-human members of the animal kingdom), or if they did think so, they were wrong.

You'd be surprised. Very recently I studied the concept of animism within certain cultures. The belief that humanity is subject to context is actually very commonly held, especially outside of Western philosophy. We tend to think of things in terms of very strict black-and-white concepts ("This is a human, this is a dog"), but a lot of people in other parts of the world think it's foolish to make judgements based solely on physical characteristics or arbitrary distinctions.

For example, the Yukaghir believe that when you behave like an animal, your soul actually starts to transform and you start becoming the animal. So that if you spend years in the forests living with wolves, you will eventually be a wolf, even if your body looks human.

And really who's to say that's wrong? What's the difference between "a man who has spent too much time in the wild and has lost touch with the behavioural norms of human society" and "a man who has become a wolf"?

Hmm, interesting. That's still in the realm of the intangible, so it's a lot less absurd than the furry claim (unless some furries think they have the soul of an animal trapped in a human or something?). I guess I could chalk it off as some kind of cultural relativism thing...furries are their own culture then. Heh.

Hmm, interesting. That's still in the realm of the intangible, so it's a lot less absurd than the furry claim (unless some furries think they have the soul of an animal trapped in a human or something?). I guess I could chalk it off as some kind of cultural relativism thing...furries are their own culture then. Heh.

Well, really, what's more absurd, the idea that you can only possibly be 0% human or 100% human with no middle ground; or the idea that if you spend a considerable amount of time and energy pretending that you aren't human, that your "level of humanity" might fluctuate slightly?

It's also something which is tied up in the issue of personhood, which is intensely debated in the field of anthropology.

I'd kinda have to wonder how many of them just want to be another species enough that they've convinced themselves that they are. I mean, it's kind of obvious I'd like to be a dragon, I have to wonder if someone like me who was maybe just a little less grounded in reality would just convince themselves that they were one. (or whatever animal they felt an attachment to). But that doesn't change the fact that they're still human.

Ah, the whole "I'm furry" as a personal transpecies identity thing. One of the things that is supposedly why furries have such a bad name. I can't imagine it makes transsexuals too happy, who feel that they are born in the wrong body being male or female, being themselves compared to by people who feel they identity largely with animals. And even more so by a society at large that takes pride in eating and killing animals.

On the other-hand, while I don't think they're transpecies, making furries these horrible people because they sympathize with animals isn't the sort of thing I get behind. A lot of furries, seem to have more respect for living beings than a lot of people. And having a little bit of a Dr. Dolittle complex isn't a horrible thing. Humans have enough hubris in their own kind, and not enough beings treat beings as having dignity based upon being living beings.

I think that adoration for other animals is a good thing. While some people may take it too far. I'm far less worried about those who take their love of animals too far, than people who take their indifference to animals too far.

Oh, how many people out there call men who do not hunt, "faggots"? Too many.

I think a lot of the science fiction about the upcoming singularity doesn't focus on being supposedly "weird" enough. Everyone is so certain that everything is going to "weird" to our culture, and different, that even approaching it, things will start to be seen as unfathomable. As in, a lot of it written about it, gets philosophical on the extremes of transhumanism and the like. But most stories still focus on Anglo-Saxon, middle class, heterosexual Americans. Even when getting anywhere near the Singularity, things are going to get fascinatingly weird and not enough material delves in that. We're going to see people use transhumanism to become fully functioning men and women everyday, to gender-bend, to become different races, to look a completely different age than they are, even look like children or old men and women, or even look like "furry" animal-people.

And that's a whole can of worms. Is the rest of society going to see them as less them human. Are they going to see furries who choose to get furry bodies instead of wear a fursuit, as having a bestiality attraction to themselves? Are people going to try to restrict their right to marry, love, or have sex? Are people who choose to have bodies that resemble children going to be seen as being paedophiles towards themselves? TV stations and the media in general is going to go absolutely nuts over the transhuman developments that may happen in our lifetimes. People are going to bend the heck out of gender, race, species, age, and together, these things are going to create a massive moral panic, I anticipate.

People are always asking the question of what it means to be human. But does it matter? People do deserve ethical treatment because of our speciesism. They deserve treatment because they're living beings. And if there is anything that humans deserve special treatment because of, it's our sentience and sapience.

That I'm aware, a lot of games about Transhumanism and Singularity don't tackle this enough. We may become robots that don't look anything like humans anymore. We might decide to look more like other animals. Obvious these things are going to happen because there are people who already want it. But hardly anybody is addressing it. The fact we're going to have white children go walking around with bodies that resemble black adults, we're going to have people who look like Asian women walking around, who were born white men, we're going to have people walking around that look like monsters, like trolls and orcs and the like, or inhuman looking robots like R2D2, or even 60 year old men fitting their bodies into something that looks like a 12 year old girl or people choosing to look exactly like a household cat.

Grandpa is going to look like this, someday.I wonder how the kids are going to feel about that. Imagine this coming out of this mouth."Well, you see, kids. I was a war veteran in the United States. Back in a time when, while there were females in the military, they'd only had the right to serve in combat for a few decades. And was mostly made up of men such as I. And the middle east was still a predominantly Muslim place." Seem weird? This is going to happen. This is in your future.Guys like this, will someday be girls like the above. This will happen.

That's a tough one. I've never met anyone who would seriously walk up to you and state something along the lines of "I'm part wolf!" even though I know that people like this certainly do exist.

On one end, human cultures with a more shamanistic bend have been known to associate humans with animals. This doesn't mean you're creating instances of zoomorphism, but that you're instead seeing parts of an animal's professed character in a given person. Hell, even some Western cultures do it. Why do you think some people are said to be "eagle-eyed" or "weasely" in nature?

Honestly believing you've got some animal guts, though, and that you need a fursuit for your "true self" to show, however, seems like an altogether different beast. I think people who go so far as to lose normal attraction levels for their fellow humans probably need to sit down and have a chat with a psychologist, or they're forgetting that in some ways, their idealized animal lifestyle would be far less, well, human, than what they're currently going through.

Consider that in most cases, furries don't choose wolves, for instance, as the entirety of what they are. They pick and choose the appearance, the heightened senses and the fact that having fur seems appealing to them, but most of the furries I've met liberally "Disney-ify" their fursonas.

So when some of my furry friends tell me they'd sometimes rather be wolves, I'm the first to ask them if they *really* would rather be forced to live in near-constant hunger, in situations where social dynamics can turn lethal at any moment, and where for all of their noble bearing, they're actually far inferior to your average gun-wielding human.

That usually gives them pause. Furries tend to have a highly idealized view of their elected species, usually perceiving animals from that species as being free spirits, as opposed to Humanity's legion of small proclivities.

It's never quite that simple, obviously.

I, personally, find a few species interesting from a design perspective, or in how they've come to mean something to your average human culture. That doesn't change the fact that I'm pretty happy with being a Homo Sapiens Sapiens.