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I will try spacing the detents out and see if that helps. I haven't done the dykem yet but I will try that too. I will disassemble it and take it to work. We have full sets of precision guage blocks so can figure out internal dimensions of everything.

If I were to make a new shorter on-off pin to try, which side is shorter, the fat side or the skinnier side?

For the $8 or whatever they cost, I would order one. That way you get the right tolerances, material, etc. You could get another .750 on order, and start grinding down the one you have, unless you need your valve working for something else before the new part would arrive.

Anyway, I believe you would want to grind down the smaller diameter. However, I've never done it, so you might want to seek some consenting opinions first. I will measure my .750 and .712 pins tonight and let you know where the length variance is.

One other idea came to mind. With the .150" longer distance from rear field strip screw hole to bolt spring seat surface, we have focused on the compression of the spring, but what if the bolt is releasing air .150" too soon relative to where the ball, breech, barrel, etc. are? Pressure will take the path of least resistance, so if the bolt stem clears the powertube oring before it's far enough forward, I bet you are losing a lot of the pressure intended to fire the ball out of, most likely, the feed tube.

Bear with me, my solution is a small science project, and I haven't taken any measurements to confirm it will all fit. Make a .150" shim to go inside the powertube. Drop this in first. Then, put in the Teflon backing washer. You will probably have to grind/file down the face of the carrier to get the powertube tip to thread on. If you make the bushing with the OD and ID of the Teflon washer, you could leave the Teflon washer out, saving you that amount of thickness you'd otherwise have to grind off the face of the carrier. I'd try the carrier without grinding first, but I doubt it will allow the powertube tip to thread on all the way without grinding.

Whew, yeah. There are other ways of achieving this (e.g. longer bolt stem), but I think the aforementioned is easiest, especially since you already made the one bushing. You should be able to make this bushing on the same equipment. Heck, perhaps you could stack up small washers to achieve the .150", whatever is going to make that bolt release the air .150" further in its stroke forward.

Does this all make sense? It may be easier to do it with a Level 7 setup first. Less parts to stack up, but you could apply the same logic. Also, I must warn that changing where the Level 10 vents may eliminate its anti-chop capabilities. If you go the Level 10 route, I would use large carriers that you would probably otherwise never use. Don't worry about a barrel leak, just see if it works.

Edit: Scratch the Level 7 idea. I forgot about the pesky bolt stick issue if the oring is too far forward in the powertube.

While I have never had an issue with my MM2K9 body, I do know that at one point they were offering free steel inserts to put inside the valve side of the body to prevent damage as some people were reporting mushrooming.

While I have never had an issue with my MM2K9 body, I do know that at one point they were offering free steel inserts to put inside the valve side of the body to prevent damage as some people were reporting mushrooming.

OPBN: Sniper42 stated in an earlier post that the low velocities and .150" longer distance occur with the steel insert installed. Without the steel insert, he can get to 290 with a trimmed spring but is worried about damaging the aluminum body. How thick is the steel insert? I suppose Sniper42 could put in a much thinner steel insert to get close to the 290 mark, but he would have to keep an eye on it. The thinner material may wear out quicker.

Sniper42: Forget my previous post. I took a bunch of measurements, mixing and matching Level 7 and Level 10 parts. The small stem length of the Level 10 is not long enough to move the seal point up .150". I also tried sealing on the larger stem diameter. Although I got it to fire perfectly fine, there is no way to move the seal forward on the larger diameter without custom machined parts. Sorry.

Also, see my comments to OPBN about the thickness of the steel insert. Did your marker max out at 290, or did you just stop there, even though it could go higher?

Finally, I guess the easiest way to test my .150" air vent hypothesis is to see how far back the bolt face is from a paintball when that paintball is resting against the detent(s). Compare that distance to your other marker, which will be really hard to do with a side/powerfeed and twistlock. That said, I measured mine (ULE body) at 1/8" to 3/16". If your MM2K9 body is more than that, this hypothesis might hold some water.

The insert is hard to measure, ITT it's about .065 or less thick. It's not flat. I did miss where he had the insert. I've tried measuring my body before and can't seem to ever get an accurate measurement to see if only some bodies were off or what. It puzzles me why only some bodies can't seem to reach the correct FPS while others have zero issues. Odd.

OPBN: Sniper42 stated in an earlier post that the low velocities and .150" longer distance occur with the steel insert installed. Without the steel insert, he can get to 290 with a trimmed spring but is worried about damaging the aluminum body. How thick is the steel insert? I suppose Sniper42 could put in a much thinner steel insert to get close to the 290 mark, but he would have to keep an eye on it. The thinner material may wear out quicker.

Sniper42: Forget my previous post. I took a bunch of measurements, mixing and matching Level 7 and Level 10 parts. The small stem length of the Level 10 is not long enough to move the seal point up .150". I also tried sealing on the larger stem diameter. Although I got it to fire perfectly fine, there is no way to move the seal forward on the larger diameter without custom machined parts. Sorry.

Also, see my comments to OPBN about the thickness of the steel insert. Did your marker max out at 290, or did you just stop there, even though it could go higher?

Finally, I guess the easiest way to test my .150" air vent hypothesis is to see how far back the bolt face is from a paintball when that paintball is resting against the detent(s). Compare that distance to your other marker, which will be really hard to do with a side/powerfeed and twistlock. That said, I measured mine (ULE body) at 1/8" to 3/16". If your MM2K9 body is more than that, this hypothesis might hold some water.

-Nathan

My velocity maxed out at 290 but it felt like the gun was kicking hard. Harder than my classic valved mag does at the same velocities.

My bolt sits about .150" recessed back from the feed hole. With a paintball all the way forward against the detents, it looks like it is another .150"(roughly) forward so it seems like it is about .300" from the bolt face. One thing to note, I am getting quite a bit of blowback up the feedstack. If I am testing without a hopper and load two balls so one is in the breach and the next is sitting on top, when I fire, it shoots the chambered ball, but there is so much blowback in the feedstack it shoots the second ball up a few feet.

And to athomas, I am shooting valken redemption pro, about .689 at the seams through a .689 freak insert in a 12inch DW fibur barrel.

Crap. That's exactly what I was afraid of. Excellent reply, by the way. I think we are on the right path. FYI, I can place three balls in my ULE or X-Mag, and the top one just jostles a bit, so I think this hypothesis is starting to hold some water. OK, here we go...

OPBN: Does the bolt face sit recessed in your body as Sniper42 describes?

OPBN and Sniper42: Please measure, if you can, the distance from the face of the body material on the aft inside edge of the breech slot (actual breech piece removed) to the aft surface of the steel insert. My guess is Sniper42's will be ~.150" longer than OPBN's. If so, here are the options, as I see them. If you feel it's worth it, you will most likely only be able to do one or the other, so it'd be wise to get input from others with this body (and same problem) to chime in. Asking Tunaman, BigEvil, tymcneer, and luke is also probably a good idea or anyone else with machining experience that has seen these bodies.

1. Machine .150" (or the difference between your and OPBN's measurement) from the surface against which the steel inserts sits. This is part A of method 1. You may get lucky, and this solves it. It will allow the bolt to move further forward in the marker, hopefully reducing the blowback, and more importantly, the lost air pressure up the feed tube that I think is causing your low velocities. This is dependent on the bolt stem being long enough in its current condition to be properly guided by the powertube and reset correctly as well. This does not cure when the bolt releases its charge, which is why I said the aforementioned was part A. If this does not solve the issue, part B of this method is moving all the locating holes/slots forward that same distance. I'm assuming JB Weld, Alumiweld, or something similar may work for a test, but it would need to be something harder for a long term fix. Anyway, the front and rear frame screw holes, sear axle hole, and slot in which the sear moves must be moved forward the appropriate distance. The new features will most likely overlap with the old (or be extremely thin-walled), which is why I mentioned the JB Weld, etc. Also, you'll probably need to move the hole for the vertical ASA or make some type of adapter, as moving the grip frame forward will interfere with the foregrip (unless the foregrip could be slotted out to accept the grip frame). Whew, yeah, the pro of this method is you might get lucky with Part A. The con is Part B seems like a lot of work, and is questionable with the overlapping holes, weld material, etc. However, option 2 may be difficult as well.

2. Machine .150" (or difference measured between OPBN's body and yours) from the aft surface of the breech slot on the main body. Mimic all existing geometry (e.g. counterbores, slots, etc.). Install a custom shim forward of the breech (in the gap that will now be there), and figure out a way to attach it. Pros are this method seems a little easier overall (surfaces are more exposed for machining, not changing as many locating features), no weld material, etc. The con is there is no quick-and-dirty-hope-I-get-lucky-on-Part-A. If you don't want the shimmed look, you could make a new front piece that accepts the barrel, and move all geometry backwards, counterboring the front .150" simply to accept barrel body diameters.

Finally, I doubt it will matter, but as for the varying distance from rear screw hole to bolt spring seat, you can use the shim you previously made to get the various springs to act the same as a marker with the "proper" distance.

If you feel any of this is worth it, please keep in mind I do not have one of these in front of me, and I have never handled one. I am strictly going off pictures from the web and the data you provide. That is why I suggest you get others with experience with these bodies (and preferably, machining experience) involved. I feel my hypothesis is valid, but all measurements and decisions should be made by a competent individual that can measure all these things with the body in hand.

It's early, so if any of this needs clarification or doesn't make sense to a well-rested population, please ask.

Good luck.

Edit: Option 3: Custom bolt with nose .150" (or whatever the lacking distance is determined to be) longer than standard bolt relative to other important geometry (base of bolt, Level 10 vent hole, latch surface, etc.). This one wouldn't show cosmetically. But again, it will require machining.

If you shoot when the ball is back against the bolt, is the velocity any higher that when it is forward away from the bolt?

Even with a shorter more compressed spring area, using the shortest bolt spring will allow you to operate with less opposition. The thing that I can see having an effect is that the large part of the bolt stem may not be clearing the powertube tip far enough to allow adequate air flow. If you have another powertube tip around, try cutting off the front in tiny increments and see if it makes a difference.

athomas: The compression area, and therefore stroke length, is longer on this seemingly defective body. This would mean the bolt is releasing the air too soon relative to the breech/barrel geometry, correct?

I realize all the machining I recommended is extreme, so by all means, keep the simpler ideas coming. I truly hope I'm wrong.

Gawd Nathan, how much freaking coffee did you drink this morning? I walk into the office barely awake and see your novel above. You're giving me a headache too early today. lol. Let me get some caffeine in my system and I'll do my best to get some good measurements later today. Just have to find my skinny tape measure and motivation.

athomas: The compression area, and therefore stroke length, is longer on this seemingly defective body. This would mean the bolt is releasing the air too soon relative to the breech/barrel geometry, correct?

My thought process wasn't firing on all cylinders for some reason. I read past that part and was thinking that because the bolt was seated farther back, the whole bolt movement was farther back for some reason. That just wouldn't make sense. Thanks for correcting that.

The theory of releasing air too soon is much more viable.

Measure the distance to the start of the barrel. Then lay out the bolt with respect to the valve and you should get a good idea of when the large bolt stem clears the powertube tip. This is when the power impulse behind the ball is produced. If it happens too far before the bolt tip is in the barrel, it could definitely impact the amount of velocity you are getting.

Gawd Nathan, how much freaking coffee did you drink this morning? I walk into the office barely awake and see your novel above. You're giving me a headache too early today. lol. Let me get some caffeine in my system and I'll do my best to get some good measurements later today. Just have to find my skinny tape measure and motivation.

Funny thing is I don't drink coffee or other caffeinated beverages. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. The problem is I can't draw. If you think that's bad, you should see my standard work instructions for building aircraft components.

These bodies have been an issue for going on 5 years, right? Wouldn't it be great to figure it out!

Ok. Using a tape measure and accounting for my crappy eyesight, I am coming up with a measurement on my body from the front of the FS hole to the forward most part of the inside of the body I am coming up with 2 15/16". This is without the metal spacer/washer. I did put it back in for below.

Just for good measure, I popped a battery in, aired up and went out in the backyard. 277, 280, 284, 284 etc. from me setting it probably 2 years ago. .682 freak back with Marbs and a DW CF barrel.

Side note, man I forgot how much I love shooting this thing, but hate how quickly and how much fun it is to blow through a hopper of paint:

OPBN: Does the bolt face sit recessed in your body as Sniper42 describes?

OPBN and Sniper42: Please measure, if you can, the distance from the face of the body material on the aft inside edge of the breech slot (actual breech piece removed) to the aft surface of the steel insert.

OPBN: Does the bolt face sit recessed in your body as Sniper42 describes? Yes. Appears to actually sit right up to the breach

OPBN and Sniper42: Please measure, if you can, the distance from the face of the body material on the aft inside edge of the breech slot (actual breech piece removed) to the aft surface of the steel insert.Not going to lie, taking this thing apart is a PITA. I can say that the bolt face seems to sit right at the seam of the breach.

What does everbody think? Time to employ a machinist? The custom bolt would be cool, in my opinion. I wonder if PTP could whip these out to remedy the faulty bodies.

What is involved in making a Level 10 bolt? While changing a foamie last night, it looked like the center portion is brazed in. I feel a lathe with offset boring tools (or trepan tools), a basic mill, and some stainless bar stock would work though.

How many of these bodies are faulty? Enough to get a machinist to do a run of custom bolts or repair work?

What does everbody think? Time to employ a machinist? The custom bolt would be cool, in my opinion. I wonder if PTP could whip these out to remedy the faulty bodies.

What is involved in making a Level 10 bolt? While changing a foamie last night, it looked like the center portion is brazed in. I feel a lathe with offset boring tools (or trepan tools), a basic mill, and some stainless bar stock would work though.

How many of these bodies are faulty? Enough to get a machinist to do a run of custom bolts or repair work?

-Nathan

Except, that I just measured my body using a very scientific method of sticking a wooden kabob skewer flat side into the breach from the front, marked it and measured it and my bolt face is sitting at approx .15" from the feed hole as well.

Did I miss something?

Edit* I had a stupid idea about trying to test the FPS by just dropping a ball in to see if it made a difference and it didnt. I hand fed 4-5 balls and the FPS oddly went slighty higher than with the hopper on.

What detent are you using Sniper? I am using Check it detents which are pretty weak to begin with, but I made them stronger by putting an additional spring from a pen in.

Sniper42 and OPBN: I can't tell if we're all measuring the same thing. Could you both please remove the breech, and measure the distance from the face of the bolt to the nearest flat surface of the body (nearest surface to the OD of the bolt, perpendicular to the axis of the bolt), noting whether it is recessed or protruding from this surface?

Now my head is starting to hurt.

-Nathan

Last edited by nak81783; 07-30-2013 at 03:18 PM.
Reason: Clarification, I hope...

Sniper first. lol. Post up some pics of what you are measuring and I'll confirm. Seriously, its a pain to take apart and every time you do there is a risk of cross threading and stripping the front block. That and I might scratch my baby.

Sniper first. lol. Post up some pics of what you are measuring and I'll confirm. Seriously, its a pain to take apart and every time you do there is a risk of cross threading and stripping the front block. That and I might scratch my baby.

Except, that I just measured my body using a very scientific method of sticking a wooden kabob skewer flat side into the breach from the front, marked it and measured it and my bolt face is sitting at approx .15" from the feed hole as well.

Did I miss something?

Edit* I had a stupid idea about trying to test the FPS by just dropping a ball in to see if it made a difference and it didnt. I hand fed 4-5 balls and the FPS oddly went slighty higher than with the hopper on.

What detent are you using Sniper? I am using Check it detents which are pretty weak to begin with, but I made them stronger by putting an additional spring from a pen in.

No you didn't miss anything. I misread Sniper42's post. I thought he meant his bolt face was sitting back .150" from the forward face of the body (largest piece, not the removable breech). This is why I want to verify who's measuring what from where.

Can you answer some questions if they don't involve taking the thing apart, please?

1. Look at this post. It's the best picture I've found to use for my understanding thus far. Other than the breech being backwards (detent holes should be forward of the feed tube), I think it is fairly accurate. Is the breech keyed, so it can only go in one way? Is it a straight-shot diameter all the way through, or is it stepped? I'm wondering if they're not keyed and have a stepped diameter, if some of them got machined backwards.

2. Can you hand load two balls into the feed tube without a hopper? When you fire the bottom one, does the top one shoot out of the feed tube as Sniper42 described?

3. With a ball all the way forward against the detent, you have about a .300" gap from the back of the ball to the face of the bolt as well?

As far as slightly higher velocity with your hopper off, the only thing I can think of is you don't have the forcefeed pressure on the ball stack. This makes it ever so slightly easier for the Level 10 to complete its stroke. Any bit of less resistance lets it complete its stroke slightly faster, losing slightly less pressure through the bleed hole in the shorter cycle time. I would think this would be negligible, but it hypothetically could translate into higher velocity.

No you didn't miss anything. I misread Sniper42's post. I thought he meant his bolt face was sitting back .150" from the forward face of the body (largest piece, not the removable breech). This is why I want to verify who's measuring what from where.

Can you answer some questions if they don't involve taking the thing apart, please?

1. Look at this post. It's the best picture I've found to use for my understanding thus far. Other than the breech being backwards (detent holes should be forward of the feed tube), I think it is fairly accurate. Is the breech keyed, so it can only go in one way? It is keyed, but I cannot honestly remember if it is both sides or only one side of the breach. Is it a straight-shot diameter all the way through, or is it stepped? Appears to be the same size to me. If push comes to shove, I could take it apart and use calipersI'm wondering if they're not keyed and have a stepped diameter, if some of them got machined backwards.

2. Can you hand load two balls into the feed tube without a hopper? When you fire the bottom one, does the top one shoot out of the feed tube as Sniper42 described?Yup. Second ball in the stack shot up and out.

3. With a ball all the way forward against the detent, you have about a .300" gap from the back of the ball to the face of the bolt as well?Yes. Approx.

As far as slightly higher velocity with your hopper off, the only thing I can think of is you don't have the forcefeed pressure on the ball stack. This makes it ever so slightly easier for the Level 10 to complete its stroke. Any bit of less resistance lets it complete its stroke slightly faster, losing slightly less pressure through the bleed hole in the shorter cycle time. I would think this would be negligible, but it hypothetically could translate into higher velocity.Kinda my thought. Which made me think perhaps there was something wrong/weak about the detents being used. Perhaps the loader was pushing past and causing the low FPS? But Sniper said he had the same issue with hand feeding. What about taking the detents out and hand feeding?

With a ball chambered, does the centerline of the ball line up with the centerline of the bolt and the centerline of the barrel? Perhaps the air blast isn't centered behind the ball? I'm assuming yours is fine, since you can hit desired velocity, but it's something to check on Sniper42's.

I posted similar questions in the thread Sniper42 referenced earlier. Hopefully, all those people are still subscribed, and we can get more data points. Worst case, I have more people call me Mr. Snippy.

With a ball chambered, does the centerline of the ball line up with the centerline of the bolt and the centerline of the barrel? Perhaps the air blast isn't centered behind the ball? I'm assuming yours is fine, since you can hit desired velocity, but it's something to check on Sniper42's.

I posted similar questions in the thread Sniper42 referenced earlier. Hopefully, all those people are still subscribed, and we can get more data points. Worst case, I have more people call me Mr. Snippy.