181 -1 Part UNDERSTANDING CONDEMNATION

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The Following Message Has Been Transcribed For Clarity, Continuity Of Thought, And Punctuation By The LEM Transcribing & Editing Team.

COMMENT1: It hurts, but you have to go through it. When you go through it you feel ashamed, you feel you have been made a mockery. God does not want to do that, He is just using someone obedient to stick with it, and say, "I can hear the Lord calling me."

COMMENT2: I was making a remark about the things that really need to be deal with in a persons life. Like for instance, many people have been abused in their childhood by their parents or a relative. A lot of times it can be sexual abuse. A large percent of the time I am finding that this is true. I did not think it was such a big part.

The reason I did not know is because it was never talked about in the church. I was thinking about it how the religion covers it over. The church people, the religion just covers it over. They go to church four or five times, whatever, three of four times to get to feeling better, while the world will drink, and drug to feel better. It is the same thing.

I was saying that the ministers, a lot of them, when they started getting.. (inaudible).. discernment through the Holy Spirit, not her in particular. I have never seen her do this. Most ministers have discerned it, and cast it out, and that is it. Once you get it cast out, it is over. I know in particular, this one minister he will say that it came back in, but the real truth of it is that it never left. It was a thing that happened to the soul, is takes time for it to get better.

I have been through this. I know one minister, he would say, "I battled that thing night after night. I did not yield to it. It would come back again, and say do it, do it, do it. I would have to battle it."

It is not just some spirit, just because I am crying in front of that man, it is just manifesting. It is true, there are those things that it is just not that simple, that you get the discernment, and you cast it out, and it is all over. They just do not want to talk about it. There is no church that you can go, sit down, and talk about being sexually abused or talk about incest without being shamed? There is no church. Maybe God is beginning to do it, but it is the truth, that there is not a church that you can go to, and come out of your shame-based family.

You find shame popping over to that person, popping up from that person. Projecting over to you, projecting over to you, that is what is happening in the churches. It is an unconscious thing that is going on, covered up by religion. It is condemnation, that is right, you walk out of the church with condemnation, and you do not even know where it came from. You are just trying hard to go with that church, whatever they are doing.

Whatever they are doing, whatever the preacher is saying, go with it. That

is what I knew my whole life, and I must have been sexually abused before I was five years old. By the time I was five I knew the church world, I was flowing with it. I was out on the street. They told us at five years old to get out on the street. At five years old I was out on the street telling people that Jesus loves them, and they were going to Hell if they did not accept Jesus.

You learn it, you grow up learning this kind of thing. It is amazing, the whole time I am starting to deal with this is here, and I have gone to a psychologist, that talks about this. He says, "I want to talk about it." I am like, "What do you mean you want to talk about it?" That is when I started getting better, going to a group and talking about it. She was like, "I am going to show you that you are not the only one with these problems." I was like, "Wow."

The church does not talk about this, and the preachers think you cast it out, and that is that.

COMMENT1: Personal thing that helped me was that I did not hold a resentment when I got the deliverance for God to keep cracking that carnal mind. I look at this, what I was going through, when Sunday or Monday that was a horrendous day.

PASTOR VITALE: Inaudible.

COMMENT1: Monday was when it was very painful.

PASTOR VITALE: Monday night was the worst.

COMMENT1: It was so painful that I came in feeling great I just needed.. I mean, I could not go home, I could not go anywhere, I was just like a basket case. God allowed it, one thing after another, to break up, every time I was reprimanded. It was like I could not get it over, It got worse. Then there were certain phone calls that came in, and you had to speak to this one. It was like it was blowing up, and then they got the discernment, to pray.

It was just a hard, hard prayer and deliverance, then the prophesy came through. Then it was...after the prophesy was a deep wound. God flowed so deep I knew something cracked. If I had not been faithful in allowing it, I do not think I would have reached that point. That is what I want to say.

God allowed all the other time to bring me to this cracking point so that God could start to rule, it was tremendous.

COMMENT3: I want to say that the twelve steps, they really help the emotions as they go through it. I see great deliverance going on there, I know God brought me there. I see a reasonable doctrine here, He is bringing deliverance, in the inner, I can see the balance. I could not have stepped out and done what I did in the past year except that the Lord gave me...

COMMENT2: ...Inaudible...to be able to do that in the church world. I think that it is starting right here. I also believe that on top of that, that God is showing this ministry something extra that psychiatrists and the psychologist do not have. They do have a lot of knowledge, and they can help people that are really sick, that have horrible lives.

COMMENT3:..Inaudible.

COMMENT2: ...Yes, but a person like me that is severe, because I do not black out, and go into another personality. They say I do not have another personality. God has shown Pastor Vitale, and this ministry that a person can have a lesser manifestation of that. If I talk to a psychologist, they would say they do not see anything like that in me at all. Yet I know deep down inside that it is true.

COMMENT3: I am not talking about the psychiatrists. I am talking about the help group that you go into, not the psychiatrist.

PASTOR VITALE: She was talking about the man, she was talking about the help group.

COMMENT2: I was talking in particular. I do not go to a help group, I go to a psychologist.

COMMENT3: You used the word "group" that is why I thought you were talking about that.

COMMENT2: Yes, because they do, do it sometimes in groups. It is not a group that I go to. I go to a psychologist. I was talking about a psychologist, and this ministry. I am saying that they are both a big help to me, but in this ministry it is an even bigger help. There is something here that they do not have. There is something spiritually missing. It is the same knowledge that they have about personalities, about split personalities that they do not see the lesser manifestation of that, and how to deal with it by the spirit.

When God puts that together, the psychologist with a deliverance worker, it is powerful. I understand that now. I think it is a growing thing, I think it is happening here, and even more so here. I hope it happens for the rest of the world because they really need it.

PASTOR VITALE: We have to be very careful not to misapply Scriptures. When the Lord said to you "Count it all joy. When XXX said "Count it all joy," it is not the same thing. You should have heard her screaming and yelling Monday night. Were you counting that joy? If I had come to you when you were screaming, crying, and yelling, and said to you "xxx, Count it all joy," what would have your reaction been? I would have hurt you, she would have fallen apart.

It is fine to say, "You are going to count it all joy when it is over," but when it is happening, the people that are in pain need to be comforted. When we go to someone who is in pain, and needs to be comforted, and we say to them "Count it all joy," they way that registers in their soul is condemnation. I see you do not understand what I said.

We are going to have a lot of people coming into this ministry here, and we cannot have them condemned. When somebody is in pain, whoever it is, and the ministry is "Count it all joy," that is condemnation to those people, and I cannot allow it here.

Every time I hear that said, you see we have an open meeting here, and everyone is free to say what they want, but whatever you say, say it knowing that if I perceive it to be incorrect, I am going to have to correct it. Anything that we say like that in front of these people that are here to learn, that is incorrect according to my thinking, I have to correct you. I am making that correction, that when someone is hurting, telling you about their pain, and in desperate need of ministry, to say to them "count it all joy," which is denying their pain is not acceptable in this ministry.

I would not rebuke you for what you just said to XXXX, "Count it all joy," because she is jubilant. We can apply one Scripture to someone when they are in one condition. When we are in the condition of needing comfort, that is not the Scripture to give them. They need compassion, mercy, and whatever the spirit gives them.

God is doing something unique when He is works with a lot of drug addicts, and people whose souls have been deeply damaged. That is what we have here, people whose souls have been deeply damaged. Do not let any one condemn you.

I had someone come to me not too long ago, and said to me, "What do you have here, a dysfunctional group?" No, we are not a dysfunctional group. We are a group of Christians that have been crying out to God for years, who have not found release from our pain through the ministry that is existing in the church age, that we have come out against.

In our life time, we have not found release from our problems from the anointing and the counselling that is in the average church in the church age, which is today. What is happening in this ministry, it is the beginning of the New Age of Christ. We have our toe in the water of the New Age of Christ. I see it happening somewhat over in Freeport. I am not really knowledgeable to what he is doing over there, I just know that God has been showing me that drug addicts need more than (inaudible) in the name of Jesus.

There are several ministries around that know that you need more than that. They minister to you, and give you a discipline program, and there is a form available. The knowledge in the church world has been for quite a while now, that the drug addicts and alcoholics need more than out in the name of Jesus. They need teaching, the usually need instruction. Very frequently, they are people who have never been taught how to relate to other people in this world.

The church world says, "Well, those are the drug addicts, and those are alcoholics, that is okay, but that is not for me. I am a respectable person, I am a married wife, I am a married husband. I have a normal family life, you are telling me that I am in this category of drug addicts, and alcoholics?" I want to tell you, brethren, that there is a group of people in the church whose souls are severely damaged.

They are frequently married, they have raised children, they have worked all their lives, they function in society. The difference between them and the rest of the church world is that there is a big gapping hole in their heart. They are in almost continuous pain. The other side of the coin are the people in the same condition that have found the will power within themselves to cover over that pain, and they are in denial. They are the same group of people on one side of the coin, and the other people on the other side of the coin.

Socially respectable people, but their souls are just as damaged or almost as damaged as the drug addict, or the alcoholic, or the sociopath in whatever way they are manifesting.

They are damaged. The measure of power of ministry in the church today has not helped them, or has helped them somewhat, or helped them a little bit. Their lives are still not in order, their children's lives are still not in order. Destruction is raging everywhere, and the church has condemned them.

The church has said, "You have been in the church , five, ten, fifteen, twenty years, why is your family still under destruction? You must be in sin." They cast you out because they do not know what to do with you. No one can tell me that this is a dysfunctional group here. It is a group where deep ministry is ministered, deeper than any other ministry that I know of.

There maybe others out there, God has not revealed them to me. The closest I have seen to it is in Freeport. To my understanding, he is basically dealing with drug addicts, and alcoholics. For some reason, I am seeing prostitutes. I have no first-hand knowledge that he is dealing with prostitutes, but that came to mind.

He is dealing largely in people whose life styles are socially unacceptable. The world and the church has no problem saying, "Yes, they really need help." What we are dealing with there is the Pharisees. If you are mad at me, you can tell me, but we are dealing with the Pharisees here. We are dealing with the people in the church who appear to be socially acceptable, but there is destruction all over their lives, all over their children, they are in great pain unless they have blotted out that pain with their denial.

They are frequently adult children of alcoholics. The world knows the adult children of alcoholics have a problem. There is a whole organization that helps them deal with them. Relatives of alcoholics, Al Anon, adult children of alcoholics. What have they found out? They have found out that people who have been alcoholics, drug addicts, or engaged in other compulsive or anti-social behavior, frequently produce children who do not engage in the same compulsive activity but have the same personality problems.

What the Lord has showed me recently is really amazing. He has shown me that there is a whole category of people who were raised in families, where either one or more of the parents go through radical personality changes. One minute they are loving, the next minute they are screaming, yelling, raging, and accusing. This is the same behavior that is found in alcoholic families, but in alcoholic families the personality does not change until the person starts to drink.

There is a whole category of families where there is no alcohol, the parents are performing the same behavior. No alcohol? Some emotional stimulant sets them off to go from a loving parent to a raging, accusing, condemning parent. Something sets them off, and they turn. It is not a factor that we take into our body, it is not a substance. It is an emotional reaction that is the same of that of an alcoholic.

This is a disorder that is raging in plague form across the nation. In some instances the anointing in the church helps, and in some instances is does not help. Why? Because every human being is an individual, and every human being is made up of a combination of variables that have produced you as you are today. Some people are more resistant to the ministry in the church than others. Did you ever hear of a more resistant virus?

They are talking about an new form of tuberculosis, a more resistant form of tuberculosis. It is a disease that is not responding to the established treatment. The established treatment cannot stop it. There is a category of people in the church today that the ministry available today cannot help, and the church condemns them. The church as a whole condemns them, and any individual that is manifesting their carnal mind condemns them.

Brethren, there is ministry in the carnal mind, there is ministry coming from the church out of the carnal mind. It helps a lot of people. There is counseling that comes out of the carnal mind that can help.

The world can help, psychologists can help, sociologists can help, doctors can help. What happens when you are ministering out of your carnal mind is that at any moment your carnal mind can just do whatever he wants and condemn that person. Jesus said we are not to condemn those that Christ died for. Who did Jesus die for? He died for the whole world, brethren. Condemnation is to be condemned.

We find a whole church world filled with very well-meaning people that want to help, but they do not know how. They do what they think is best, and almost always wind up condemning the person who has opened their heart to you, because you are members of the church, and they do not know where else to turn. They tell you their problems, they confess their sins to you, and a spirit of condemnation manifests to some one who is in their carnal mind. Jesus says when that has happened, you have killed that person.

I do not condemn anybody who is ministering condemnation, but I do condemn condemnation. I exhort everyone of you, I declare to everyone who is hearing this tape to put yourself before the Lord, and to ask Him to show it to you if you are ministering condemnation, and to help you to stop, because it is sin.

You can be some one who ministers and helps people continuously. You can be some one who casts out demons, you can be somebody who prays for the sick, and they get healed. At that given moment, if you are not constantly monitoring your carnal mind, that spirit of condemnation rises right up and kills that person, at Satan's will.

This is what is happening in the church today. In the New Age of Christ it is not acceptable. In the church age it is called an abuse of deliverance. If it happens you go to the pastor, and tell him that so-and-so prayed for me, and condemned me, then he deals with it. You have to forgive the people. Why? Because they are not perfect. As we enter into the New Age of Christ, where we are not ministering out of our carnal mind, but where we are ministering out of Christ, this is not acceptable.

What does God require of us? He requires us to start monitoring everything we say and every thought we think. Ask Him if it is not a spirit of condemnation, whether it is or it is not. Either it is out of Christ, or it is out of the carnal mind. There is no opinion involved, brethren. There is no opinion. It is either Christ...if it is Christ it cannot be condemnation. Or if it is out of the carnal mind, and you condemn the person, you must confess it and ask God to help you to stop.

There is this spirit in the church that says, "I will pray for you once, and if you are still afflicted , there is something wrong with you, out" I want to tell you, brethren, the ministers that are being raised up for the New Age, which is everybody here, you cannot do it. You have got to stop doing it. There are people out there, there is a whole category of people who are without help. The church cannot help them. Alcoholics, drug addicts, sex addicts, whatever they are.

They flow in and out of the church. No help for them. A group gets help, they stand up, and that group is more condemning than... the more troubled people that are now standing, typically are more condemning towards the people who cannot make it, than the people that never had that problem. They are saying, "Well, I made it, how come you did not? I am a wheat, and you are a tare." This is the mentality of the church today.

I will not condemn you, I am here to let who ever is listening to the tape know that this is what is happening, and that it is no longer acceptable to the Lord Jesus Christ.

He wants us to have our hearts converted so that we can minister out of love, mercy, compassion, and labor with the people. We had it in the message last night, to forbear, or bear with the people. To go through their infirmity with them a step at a time until they break through. We are never to dismiss anybody, because when we do that, it is a spirit of pride, that is saying, "I have done all I could do, and you are still troubled, I do not want anyone to know that I could not help you."

Whether it is conscious or unconscious, that is what it is. I know because I have experienced it, I have experienced being afraid to pray for somebody, because what if they did not get healed? What he was preaching, that was me, I was cracking up because I went though that whole thing. I heard a man preaching this not too long ago. I have experienced being afraid of trying to cast a demon out, because what if the demon did not come out? I went through the whole phasing of the Lord where He said to me, "Look at your pride, it is a stench in my nose. You do all that you can do, then I will do what I do, and what I do is none of your business."

You pray, you pray healing, you pray deliverance, and if they do not get delivered or if they do not heal, you bear with them. If they come up on your prayer line at every service for a year, you pray for them. There is a line. If they are manifesting an ungodly spirit that is trying to posses you, you have to deal with that. We are not talking about that.

There is condemnation in the church today that says if you are having all these problems there must be something wrong with you. There is an attitude in the church today that is saying, "You must be able to control it, why do you not walk away from it? Why do you not refuse it?" Brethren, when someone is sticking a knife in your back, you cannot always refuse it. The answer to that is that you must get stronger in Christ. No one has the strength to get stronger in Christ, we wait for the increase.

None of the afflictions that I went through could have happened to Jesus, because He was a spiritual mature man, which obviously I am not. If a ten year old is strangling your two year old, do you say to your two year old, "Do you think you should walk away from it?"

Brethren, if you walk down the street, I do not mean to hurt anybody's feelings, I am telling you the truth, I am a rough preacher. I have got a tough message, I will tell you the truth every time, and I will never be against you personally, I am not.

If you walk down the street, and you see a muscle bound wrestler strangling an average man. Do you say to the average man, "Why do you not walk away?" It is a question of strength.

Those of us who are carnal-minded stumble when it comes to the spirit, because we do not understand that some people are stronger in the spirit, than others.

Those that are weaker who are being strangled by someone who is stronger in the spirit cannot always walk away, some times they need a lot of help. Sometimes we need help continuously. For any minister to make a decision that you have been prayed for enough for is a manifestation of pride. Only Jesus can say that.

The ministry that the Lord is bringing forth here is the ministry to people who have been in the church world for a long time. This is a ministry for mature believers that have been in the church for a long time. They have given their all to God, but their carnal minds are still ruling in their lives, frequently, not always, frequently, because they have wrong thinking in their mind.

Wrong thinking in your mind is a manifestation of a curse. All this talk about being cursed, what is a curse? How does it work? Curses...there are different kinds of curses, but what we are dealing with here is basically family line curses which go from generation to generation, in the form of wrong thinking. Wrong thinking that makes us make wrong decisions, that makes us make wrong judgments, that perpetuate the same kind of trouble in our life that the past four or five generations have had.

There is no way you are going to lay your hands on some one with that problem, and say, "I break you in the name of Jesus," There is no way you are going to lay hands on some one with that problem, and say, "Out in the name of Jesus," and it is going to be all over.

These people need to be re-educated. They need to have their wrong thinking pointed out to them. If they receive the correction, it is fine to be gentle. If they have a stubborn spirit, they must be rebuked. The wrong thinking must be pointed out to them, and then you work with them, bear with them, you suffer long with them as they resist and try to make changes. Every time they manifest an error in their thinking or their behavior, you tell them with the love of Christ and work with them.

It is ministry that comes forth with the discernment and instruction of the Lord. That is what God is doing here. It is a miracle what God is doing here. I do not know whether you know it or not, but people in the world go to psychiatrists and pay thousands and thousands of dollars, to go... to put it quite frankly, I am not knocking these people, but they are emotionally uninvolved. People who are emotionally uninvolved with their life, who are cold, sit there with their watch, and say, "Your 45 minutes are up." No matter what you feel, you get up another fifty or a hundred dollar, if they will give you the time.

I tell you the truth. Aside from these restrictions on their ministry to you, they are without the discernment of the spirit. They are following a prescribed course of ministry, which is directed by the carnal teaching that he was trained up in. What God is doing here is giving His ministry by word of knowledge, that is what He is doing here. It is the New Age of Christ, it is the thing to come.

As everybody here gets trained up, He will bring in more people. Each of you will have your own disciples to work with, then you can talk to me if you have a question or if you need instruction, if you need counsel. You are all in training to do the same thing I am doing here.

I do not think this was a message, it was an exhortation. The bottom line is this we must stop ministering out of our carnal mind. We cannot say that you see it differently than I meant it, it cannot be. It has to be the mind of Christ to bringing forth the ministry. It has got to be. I just pray that the Lord ministers to you, because if there is a spirit of condemnation coming forth we cannot say, "I did not mean it that way."

Either it is, or it is not. Either I am right, or you are right. Only one of us is right. Not that it is a question of who is right, but that if it is true there has to be a correction there. God wants you to minister out of Christ. He has great things for you, you are a faithful, anointed woman of God. I know that it has been on your mind that you did not know, you were not sure whether or not you conceived Christ, I hope it blesses you for me to tell you that I had a dream about you.

In the dream you were holding the hand of a little boy about seven years old. What that means to me is that you most certainly have conceived Him, and that He is not an infant anymore. You have a powerful ministry to God's people. He wants to increase it, He wants to give you double portion. A triple portion. You are a powerful minister of Christ. He has great things for you, but if there is some carnality there, and He wants to root it out. There is some denial there, He wants to root it out.

It is important that you understand what is coming out of your mouth. Great things for you. There is some carnality there, and it has got to go, and it is very thick on you mind. I see Him there with an ice pick.

Just for the record, it was a spirit of condemnation that came forth from you. The point is that you did it, that spirit came out of you, and God has to show it to you. If it is there, He has got to show it to you. That happens all the time to carnal people, things manifest through them. They do not know what they are doing.

It is not a question of my misunderstanding it, it was a question of whether it was a spirit of condemnation or it was not. If it is a spirit of condemnation, then God wants to work on it. It has to be dealt with. It is not enough to say, "I am not aware of it."