Author
Topic: Death on the Cross (Read 1920 times)

Ryan

Alright... so i do not understand the value of Christs death on the cross from an ET Christian perspective. I actually never have until i found out about UR. So here goes (btw the italics are meant to show from the ET perspective)Jews before Christ could gain salvation through righteous actions/sacrifice of animals to cover sin correct?I also saw a video saying that Jews believe people not of the jewish faith could receive salvation based on 7 rules or something like that. (could just be youtube hearsay but its from www.jewu.info)

Then Jesus died to save all (believers) from sin. All that has to be done is to believe. But if you dont believe, there is no hope to gain salvation.

Now what i dont understand is: (from the ET perspective) Jesus's death allowed Christians to not have to sacrifice animals but cut off all non-believers from salvation?

I get very puzzled when i read ET arguements saying UR minimizes the importance of the cross because of this. So if you can conjure up the memories of your pre-UR belief, please explain what was what involving the cross.

Try these.1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

goodreport

Some very powerful verses from the Scriptures regarding the death of Jesus on the cross:

Col 1:19For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fulness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Eph 2:13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been made near by the blood of Christ.

OT verseLev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood...for it is the blood that makes atonement for the life.

Eph 1:7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

Col 1:13He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Heb 10:3,10 (referring to OT sacrifices)But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins... By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 2:14...that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil...

Heb 9:26, 28...He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself... so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of all.

The cross, is the death of Jesus Christ, the sacrifice of the Lamb from the foundation of the world. Now, there is a moving on, a maturing, a growing up in Him. We are now alive, thru Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. To live at the cross is death. To look back at the cross is remaining in death.The message of the cross, it is finished, now move and live in Him. The message of the cross, and the agony of the Savours death is very emotional, and to use that emotion of the Savours death, as an tool to produce a ministry and money is blasphemy.Jesus's offering of Himself should not be used for filthy lucre.And this very thing is being done on TV today.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

I get very puzzled when i read ET arguements saying UR minimizes the importance of the cross because of this. So if you can conjure up the memories of your pre-UR belief, please explain what was what involving the cross.

The ET argument is: It's no longer anything special to be saved. Jesus wasted His whole life because everybody will be saved anyway.But they forget that without Jesus not even 1 person would be saved. So Jesus death is the difference between 0% and 100%.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

When Moses was leading the Israelites, a plague swept through (while they were sinning and rebelling).Moses put a bronze serpent entertwined on a pole in the ground.All who looked upon this were healed. (BTW the same thing used to be seen in every doctors office -serpent entertwined on a pole)Some refused to look or didn't believe that looking upon this bronze serpent would save them.They died.Maybe they thought just looking upon something, believing it would save you, was too easy.IMO, ET'ers see those that don't "accept" Christ the same as the Israelites that refused to look.They are superior to non-believers because they had the wisdom, faith, or what-have-you to believe in Jesus.ET'ers give lip service to saved by grace and grace alone but deep down believe God sees them as "special" and/or that they DID something, (like walking down the aisle or saying a prayer or "accepting Christ" which forced God's hand to accept them and treat them special over those that don't believe in this life.UR see us all(humanity) in the same boat. Sinners saved totally by grace, some before they die as God wills, the rest after they die(as God wills)

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

To live at the cross is death. To look back at the cross is remaining in death..

I understand we are to mature, but I don't believe that means "leaving the cross".

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified". I Corinthians 2:2

"May it never be that I should boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.." (Galatians 6:14).

Should I take the cross(there is only one) into into my understanding, the cross is Mat_10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. Mar_10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

That cross(not the tree) was, and is Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (do His will)1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Notice also Paul is telling us that it is not the natural that is the difference." the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,...." not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. At least that's how now given to understand the cross. I believe those will grow in Christ are those will put aside all of the natural symbols that religion keeps us clinging to.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

To live at the cross is death. To look back at the cross is remaining in death..

I understand we are to mature, but I don't believe that means "leaving the cross".

Did Jesus leave the cross. (not speaking literally)

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"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified". I Corinthians 2:2

"May it never be that I should boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.." (Galatians 6:14).

Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me. I think that connects quite well with the "mature" you wrote. The main question is does "carry your cross" ends when a certain goal is reached.I think yes. So from that p.o.v. I think Micah is right.But... I think very few, if any, reach that point in during life....

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

I see it as remembering and honoring what Jesus did for us - always. And knowing that's an anchor, the point on which it all hinges. As mature as Apostle Paul was, he preached, lived, and gloried in the cross of Christ. Blessings.

"Soon I noticed a tiny cross (seemingly) coming up out of the "heart of the earth"  Matt. 12:40. Could this be our own 'deep' or unconscious being? We are a small universe within ourselves  heaven, spiritual; earth, natural; mind, ruling; mind and body, ruled over. Be this as it may, this cross, surrounded by this glorious white light of God, continued to grow until it completely spanned the universe filling the whole world with the glory of God  Isa. 6:1, 11:9, Hab. 2:14.

Then I was made to see the great spheres whirling out of this great mass of white light. Could they be planets? I was made to know that they represented GREAT WORLD STAGES OF TIME through which God is working to fulfill His original plan for all mankind. These large Eons of Time not only whirled into view, but they slowly revolved around the cross. They came out from God and were returning back into God. "For Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things."  Rom. 11:36

CHAPTER THREE THE REVELATION

As I continued to watch I saw glorious RAYS OF LIGHT emanating from the cross. They began to stream out from the cross to every Eon, completely covering each one with it's own pure illumination. The cross seemed to be like a huge radiant magnet sending out RAYS OF LOVE AND LIFE everywhere, influencing and enlightening the whole creation and then gradually drawing all back into itself again  John 12:32. These great Eons of Time seemed to be hinged to the cross by these flashing rays, holding all things together by their influence and power  Col. 1:17. I was made to know that the CROSS OF CHRIST represented the LIFE AND LOVE of God flowing out to all men without respect of persons, sustaining and drawing all unto Himself by His magnetic power. "In Him is life and that life is the light of men. He lighteth every man that cometh into the world"  John 1:4, 9. He loves us, washes us, and then changes us into kings and priests  his own life, drawing us back into Himself  Rev. 1:5-6

In amazement the whole panoramic view began to move in a majestic flowing orbit. All was in motion, vibrating, and alive. The pulsations of the cross, the rays flashing everywhere, illuminating and healing, the eons whirling in their orbits around the cross, covered with the grace and life of the flashing rays, which were dispelling the power of God through out the universe. Beholding this I was made to know that nothing is stagnant or stationary, but full and all advancing steadily according to schedule in the plan and purpose of God.

In the cross God was revealing Himself as he really is. There His great heart of love was fully exposed to all everywhere. Wonder of wonders! ALL were responding! ALL were worshipping, as I heard a great volume of praise like the "voice of many waters" around the cross. Everywhere I looked all were kneeling or lying prostrate in praise and utter adoration. Neither did I see sickness, death, nor hell. All were covered with the light of life. I know that all things were made new so that former things were no longer remembered. The whole restored universe was offering homage and praise unto the lamb, who sitteth upon the throne for the eons of the eons  Rev. 5:11-13, 21:5

Remember how I had said, "Oh, God, you don't seem to be fair therefore, how can I love you and worship you fully?" Well, in this vision I know God was giving the answers. He began revealing Himself, as He truly is  a God of love, who never could and never will show partiality, as he is no respecter of persons. But through the operation of the eons in Christ, He reaches out to and draws all men unto Himself in their own time and order." - Dora Van Assen http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=4604&searchfor=||VAN ASSEN, DORA||&type=&what=author

I see it as remembering and honoring what Jesus did for us - always. And knowing that's an anchor, the point on which it all hinges. As mature as Apostle Paul was, he preached, lived, and gloried in the cross of Christ. Blessings.

I do understand your feelings.Paul wrote 13 epistles and possibly Hebrews, in all Paul mentions the cross 11 times(not a lot for 13 epistles compared to how religion today mention it..) Jesus mentioned the cross 2 times and those 2 times were not about a crucifiction, but a taking up.G4716 stauros a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross. From the base G2476 histēmi A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). (Eph.6:13) It just seems to me when you say, "I see it as remembering and honoring what Jesus did for us - always. And knowing that's an anchor, the point on which it all hinges." Isn't that making the cross close to an idol? For me as I say, what Jesus did was "the will of His Father." So when Paul says in Gal.6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ... againPaul is glorying in "the cross" of Jesus' obedience, Paul did the will of the One who sent him..... by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Years ago I read "The Two Babylons" by Hislop and a cross like "T" was used by pagans, all cross's of all types were used by pagans. As I said earlier, religion has a way of working man's emotions withnatural pictures of what "man's knowledge" wants to see(or can only see). And by all real accounts, and the Bible, Jesus was crucified on a tree. Gal.3:13 Peace and Love Through Jesus

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

For me when it comes to understanding the cross, I see the cross as "the understanding of forgiveness", we take up that understanding of forgiveness and we carry it with us each day and by that we forgive others as we have been forgiven.

Those of the church carry with them their understanding of forgiveness, you have to earn it by asking, from God and from them, they forgive an unbeliever of their sins if they come around to their way of thinking

we carry our understanding of forgiveness, it is freely given to us so we freely give, without others asking us for it, we forgive unbelievers of their sins whether they come around to our way of thinking or not

Then Jesus died to save all (believers) from sin. All that has to be done is to believe. But if you dont believe, there is no hope to gain salvation.[/i]

Now what i dont understand is: (from the ET perspective) Jesus's death allowed Christians to not have to sacrifice animals but cut off all non-believers from salvation?

I get very puzzled when i read ET arguements saying UR minimizes the importance of the cross because of this. So if you can conjure up the memories of your pre-UR belief, please explain what was what involving the cross.

I think the ET belief is Jesus' death gives everyone a "chance" (even though most of the world won't hear in this lifetime ). Without His death, then all 100% go to hell.

That, sadly is a hit on the nails head. And that is so very sad, when the religions speak of the LOVE of God.... meaning that the punishment of an eternal torment by an un-quenching fire, burning and searing His disobedient children, is "justification"... imposed by that very God of LOVE, it is a blasphemous religion, I cannot except, not from reading my Bible. I for one cannot compute how LOVE can hand out such a decision. But, as it it said, a lie told long enough, becomes truth.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

1972 I was fifteen. The town I lived Nanaimo B.C. Canada.A local professor chemical engineer develops a drug M.D.A.Since then I was a meth, addled Alcoholic thug.The local bike group is taken out ? The new guys are all wearing hells angles patches.The professor had a bunker in the hills underground even the bikers were frustrated.He would only sell to the local punks he new.The HA would then buy or steal it or extort it from you.I went on a long vacation California Mexico and back.I settled in Victoria after a while I had a complete mental breakdown.Paranoid some shrink said I was paranoid delusion.I stopped drinking with help off AA . A fellow form the meeting took me a churchThey had no fancy alter stained windows or rituals.I received Jesus every thing was great .I was still paranoid that I was being watched.I wanted every one to know that I was a changed man a Christian.Then I reckoned in my mind that they would stop watching me.One church night they showed us a beta video on how to receive Jesus .They were selling the video at a cut rate for us to be able to share with friends and family.The end of the video was sort of if you don't Receive Jesus you will spend eternity being tortured in hell.

I bought 400 and challenged my buddies and the elders and the Pastor that we go door to door and talk to people give them the video and arrange to come back sometime soon to discuss video.I also wanted to be seen doing this.The excitement was huge the participation was less. I was the only one you had arrangeda call back.I was so mad that any time I could I would berate them for letting people go to hell.I would remind them how terrible hell was. I was the hell guy. They made leader different titles. I got more and more discussed with the congregation.I made hell as big as I could and weakened there faith if possible.I knew from their actions they had a passing regard for hell.Especially if there immediate family was already saved.

I moved up fast I thought .But in small little voice area I kept hearing You didn't choose JESUS you chose a way to not go to hell.I started searching and in my spirit I new there was no hell and as I had more and more evidence to share with all the people I berated. They labeled me a heretic and through out. They literally would not let me in. My one teenage Daughter was just Graduating from a private Christian schoolMy second Daughter was just starting grade ten.My views here not acceptable at that school. I was a full-fledged UR. I actually LOVE Jesus now for today some people see that.Jesus absolutely LOVES meGod absolutely LOVES meThe HOLY SPIRIT absolutely LOVES me

1972 I was fifteen. The town I lived Nanaimo B.C. Canada.A local professor chemical engineer develops a drug M.D.A.Since then I was a meth, addled Alcoholic thug.The local bike group is taken out ? The new guys are all wearing hells angles patches.The professor had a bunker in the hills underground even the bikers were frustrated.He would only sell to the local punks he new.The HA would then buy or steal it or extort it from you.I went on a long vacation California Mexico and back.I settled in Victoria after a while I had a complete mental breakdown.Paranoid some shrink said I was paranoid delusion.I stopped drinking with help off AA . A fellow form the meeting took me a churchThey had no fancy alter stained windows or rituals.I received Jesus every thing was great .I was still paranoid that I was being watched.I wanted every one to know that I was a changed man a Christian.Then I reckoned in my mind that they would stop watching me.One church night they showed us a beta video on how to receive Jesus .They were selling the video at a cut rate for us to be able to share with friends and family.The end of the video was sort of if you don't Receive Jesus you will spend eternity being tortured in hell.

I bought 400 and challenged my buddies and the elders and the Pastor that we go door to door and talk to people give them the video and arrange to come back sometime soon to discuss video.I also wanted to be seen doing this.The excitement was huge the participation was less. I was the only one you had arrangeda call back.I was so mad that any time I could I would berate them for letting people go to hell.I would remind them how terrible hell was. I was the hell guy. They made leader different titles. I got more and more discussed with the congregation.I made hell as big as I could and weakened there faith if possible.I knew from their actions they had a passing regard for hell.Especially if there immediate family was already saved.

I moved up fast I thought .But in small little voice area I kept hearing You didn't choose JESUS you chose a way to not go to hell.I started searching and in my spirit I new there was no hell and as I had more and more evidence to share with all the people I berated. They labeled me a heretic and through out. They literally would not let me in. My one teenage Daughter was just Graduating from a private Christian schoolMy second Daughter was just starting grade ten.My views here not acceptable at that school. I was a full-fledged UR. I actually LOVE Jesus now for today some people see that.Jesus absolutely LOVES meGod absolutely LOVES meThe HOLY SPIRIT absolutely LOVES me

1972 I was fifteen. The town I lived Nanaimo B.C. Canada.A local professor chemical engineer develops a drug M.D.A.Since then I was a meth, addled Alcoholic thug.The local bike group is taken out ? The new guys are all wearing hells angles patches.The professor had a bunker in the hills underground even the bikers were frustrated.He would only sell to the local punks he new.The HA would then buy or steal it or extort it from you.I went on a long vacation California Mexico and back.I settled in Victoria after a while I had a complete mental breakdown.Paranoid some shrink said I was paranoid delusion.I stopped drinking with help off AA . A fellow form the meeting took me a churchThey had no fancy alter stained windows or rituals.I received Jesus every thing was great .I was still paranoid that I was being watched.I wanted every one to know that I was a changed man a Christian.Then I reckoned in my mind that they would stop watching me.One church night they showed us a beta video on how to receive Jesus .They were selling the video at a cut rate for us to be able to share with friends and family.The end of the video was sort of if you don't Receive Jesus you will spend eternity being tortured in hell.

I bought 400 and challenged my buddies and the elders and the Pastor that we go door to door and talk to people give them the video and arrange to come back sometime soon to discuss video.I also wanted to be seen doing this.The excitement was huge the participation was less. I was the only one you had arrangeda call back.I was so mad that any time I could I would berate them for letting people go to hell.I would remind them how terrible hell was. I was the hell guy. They made leader different titles. I got more and more discussed with the congregation.I made hell as big as I could and weakened there faith if possible.I knew from their actions they had a passing regard for hell.Especially if there immediate family was already saved.

I moved up fast I thought .But in small little voice area I kept hearing You didn't choose JESUS you chose a way to not go to hell.I started searching and in my spirit I new there was no hell and as I had more and more evidence to share with all the people I berated. They labeled me a heretic and through out. They literally would not let me in. My one teenage Daughter was just Graduating from a private Christian schoolMy second Daughter was just starting grade ten.My views here not acceptable at that school. I was a full-fledged UR. I actually LOVE Jesus now for today some people see that.Jesus absolutely LOVES meGod absolutely LOVES meThe HOLY SPIRIT absolutely LOVES me

Amen!

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

thanks for posting that :girlheart:So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

Eze 43:6 And I heard [him] speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, [neither] they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Eze 43:8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

Eze 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write [it] in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Eze 43:12 This [is] the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about [shall be] most holy. Behold, this [is] the law of the house.

Its in the power of GOD to change everything and one and make all things new to His own Glory