A Look at Class Diversity in the Mythic Dungeon International

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Ven0m64의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T01:17:40-05:00

I would have thought Enhancement Shaman do provide high single target damage? They appear up the top in damage charts don't they?

Ven0m64의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T01:19:29-05:00

I don't agree with the enchancement shaman topic, it can be a freakin op single target dps with the right traits, and the crash lightning also gives useful aoe dmg,and i tried a lot of class and spec and i think cement shammy is the most fun spec right now\r\rTotally agree!

perculia의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T01:23:17-05:00

Come on, DK was "king" while Warrior is a "plague"? As a warrior main I felt outraged by the choice of words lol. \rAfter a rocky end of Legion and start of BfA, it is just fair it finally came its time to shine.\r\rThis doesn't mean the author was okay with DKs everywhere. King means that they were on top for Legion, and since the point of this article is that lack of diversity is indicative of problems, this also means that the influx of DKs was problematic. It's also a nice play on words, DKs get the warrior-sounding phrase, while Warriors get the DK-esque "plague." \r\rThe whole conclusion of the article is that Blizzard has issues with class\/dungeon design, which will always lead to one tank, healer, and DPS being above the rest for all dungeons, especially in a competitive setting. This doesn't just apply to Prot Warriors, but the other OP specs in MDI like Resto and Outlaw. More variation in class comps would lead to a more interesting event imo.

Mountaholic의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T01:28:29-05:00

I would like to take a moment to appreciate this amazing right up of the MDI, tbh not the biggest fan of trying to run the highest key I possibly can but love the MDI and this write up was top notch wowhead\r\rIdk who wrote it if it was sours or not but amazing job trully!

alinnia의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T02:47:35-05:00

"The issue with the lack of class diversity in the MDI is not because of dungeon affixes, it is because of class tuning, and dungeon design."

Well said. I really hope Blizzard has a good read of this article and change their view on the lack of class diversity being due to dungeon affixes. There are huge class imbalances in M+. Less and less people play the non-OP classes as they've re-rolled to play the OP classes in order to push higher keys.

This season's MDI has shown how sad the state of M+ class balances currently are in WoW - it has the the most lack of class diversity in all of the MDIs.

Poofieball의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T03:16:22-05:00

My disc-priest is dead atm.....sad panda!

megablast의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T03:25:44-05:00

I believe balancing all classes across every aspect of the game (M+\/Raiding\/PvP) is an impossible task. The only possible solution is to homogenize everything and that's something they should avoid at all costs.

FleckerMan의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T03:33:30-05:00

What do people who do very high level Mythic+ think about an increase to mob kill requirement to reduce the number of skips \/ how necessary \/ beneficial they are? Would this go any way to shift reality and\/or perceptions about the mandatory nature of the current top picks at the highest keys?

abrakablacka의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T03:55:21-05:00

I would understand changing Unstoppable Force's damage to 75% over 100%, and Booming Voice to 10% damage increase. But, if any nerfs go to defensive abilities for prot, including Demoralizing Shout, it would break the class. Prot is in a great place at the moment, and a small nerf to damage is understandable. This should be a wake up call to Blizzard about buffing the other tanks, especially Guardian Druid and Vengeance Demon Hunter. Completely nerfing one tank to the ground will not make the other tanks more powerful, just preferred.

locketto의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T04:02:08-05:00

they may be just need to disable shroud on MDI

Dzumi의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T04:14:12-05:00

The problem is that some classes have way more useful utility than others and the affixes don't matter while also doing the same (or more) damage than the classes that don't have said utility. As mentioned in the article, rogues are literally gods where doing a m+ without one usually means depleting a key. During necrotic week you see an increase in balance druids and elemental shamans but that is about all the affixes i can think of that i would prefer a class over the other. \rI play a paladin, both protection and retribution, no one wants a retribution paladin, I don't want a ret pala in my groups when i tank because even tho a ret pala can top the dps i would rather have that extra utility from a monk, druid, rogue or shaman. So to me i think it all comes down to utility.\rThey can nerf\/buff the numbers all they want when the fundamental reasons some classes are picked over the others are their utility, and you can't change that as simply as the damage\/healing numbers.

Fharlion의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T04:39:23-05:00

Again where was all this "official" outrage when Blood DKs were top tanks for 2+ years?\r\rYou imply that the two situations are even remotely similar.\r\rYes, Blood was king in Legion, and dominated the tank meta for the second MDI. That's 1 out of 5 picks fixed, the remaining 4 picks still saw variety.\r\rHowever, the current situation sees 4 out 5 picks fixed (Warrior+Druid+2xRogue), and the remaining 1 slot is only contested by 3 options (3rd Rogue, WW Monk, Unholy DK). There is almost no variety left for the MDI.

Zipmint의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T05:02:24-05:00

Rogues and battle resses are hard to nerf because it is hard to balance every mob in the instance so that the % they give is exactly worth their difficulty and kill time and the skipping teams can pick their battles. I don't want them to make every dungeon a linear path where you have to kill every mob or you don't get the %, MDI should not be the main focus for designing M+.\r\rShadowmeld should be fixed but I wouldn't go so far to remove shroud from the game because the ability is fun and requires group interaction. I'm not a big fan of death runs so they could do something to prevent those.\r\rProt Warrior is FOTM for this patch, it will be something else after next or couple of patches. I think it is kind of fair because they were almost unplayable at the start of the expansion.

Napalmi의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T05:52:01-05:00

Night Elves can only be Death Knights, Druids, Hunters, Mages, Priests, Rogues and Warriors, so unless a class is insane compared to one of those 7 classes...Night Elves can be Monks too, meaning the most common meta team of Warrior, Druid, Rogue, Rogue, Monk can all Shadowmeld to skip trash\/reaping.

Ainarik의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T06:19:13-05:00

Disclaimer: I main a prot warrior.\r\rSo sometime after 8.1, prot warriors went from no-one-loves-you to best-tank for mythic +.\r\rFor what reason do we favour prot warriors nowadays? Huge DPS, good mitigation. \rWhat miracles happened between 8.0 and 8.1? What was the most significant changes for prot warriors? Ignore pain is not on the GCD anymore, a couple of minor tweaks (both buffs and nerfs), and better equipment (due to natural progression, and slowly climbing the meta). \r\rFunny thing is I was myself doing already huge amount of DPS prior to 8.1, I was already mitigating truckloads of (blockable, physical) damages. The change to Ignore pain did make my rotation feel better, but didn't change much how well I've been performing since BFA's launch.\r\rWhat changed big-time though, is the way prot warriors are envisioned by the rest of the community. Based on my own experience, I'm not sure that it really comes from rational thinking, facts and numbers, but mostly from an aggregate of butterfly effects, creating a trend, made of 90% snake-oil.\r\rAnd now we plague the meta. \r\rNice.

jcoleman의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T07:39:46-05:00

Bring the player who can play the FoTM class, and not the class.\r\rBut still bring the class.

Fixi의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T08:01:34-05:00

At some point in time, they have to just disable racials in M+. Seeing only Nightelf - and having *all* runs paths compromised so that they require shadowmeld - is very bad for the game. Basically fans who want to watch MDI have to "go Nightelf or learn nothing". Pfft.\r\rAs for tank imbalance, meh, BDK was left untouched as top dog for over 2 years, lets let prot warriors have this for the next year. :)

sinangelus의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T08:30:37-05:00

What miracles happened between 8.0 and 8.1? What was the most significant changes for prot warriors? Ignore pain is not on the GCD anymore, a couple of minor tweaks (both buffs and nerfs), and better equipment (due to natural progression, and slowly climbing the meta). Ignore pain off gcd yes... also making ranged abilities blockable (gunmen \/ bowmen mobs) and whatever is blockable, warrior is king of mitigation, 2 sec off shield block cd, 15% more armor and 10% more stamina. Tbh when Blizzard announced these changes, I also thought they were "minor tweaks" but hell do they add up, together with extra ring of azerite traits and whatnot.

If you read the article, you'll see the claim warrior can mitigate 80% of incoming damage inside cooldowns. Combined with crazy things like having cooldowns every 1-1,5 min due to anger management while other tanks often have cooldowns at 3-5 min intervals, and things like "triple shield block into bolster last stand into more shield block" having 50 sec of perma block makes them super tanky and allows to face tank mobs that before 8.1 had to be kited, and warrior sucks at kiting. However it doesn't matter when you don't need to kite because you can just take mobs on the chest and thunder clap.

I play a prot paladin, I wouldn't mind if we were "meta" for a least 1 season but we weren't for 2 expansions. Warriors, monks, dks, druids all had their time in the limelight. Warriors had one at start of legion and now again. DKs had in second half of legion. Druids during Nighthold and Tomb of Sargeras. Monks in Uldir and they were quite solid from Nighthold to Antorus too. Only other tank except mine that is constantly shafted is the demon hunter. How fair does that feel when warriors come and say "oh we weren't fotm since emerald nightmare, we deserve to be fotm now, don't nerf us"? When my class is never fotm but on the other side I spent half the Uldir on the bench for a brewmaster swap-in and second half of legion rerolling to an alt because paladin was deemed "not viable" in tomb?

Warriors cried the loudest during 8.0 for a buff, and now that they got it, they pretend it's fair they have both the best mitigation and the best damage? I was the first one to agree they needed a buff in 8.0 and I will the same say they need a nerf now. Leave spell reflect fine, leave their survivability (after all the warrior fantasy is to be a heavy armored unstoppable force), but heck slash their damage in half and they'll still be ahead.

It's ridiculous to look at mdi and every team with a prot warrior is basically a 4 dps squad. One team tried with blood dk and despite making risky big mass grip pulls and having less deaths across the dungeon they still lost because skill < prot warrior crazy dps.

Prot Warrior definitely needs a dps nerf and Dk \/ monk \/ druid tanks need a buff to close it to paladin level. I agree with the conclusion of the article writer that paladins are the second best on tank damage in m+ currently, however I feel that's a quite comfortable spot to be at. Druid \/ monk \/ dk is just horrible at holding aggro with all the bursty classes atm. Ok, if you run double rogue and perma tricks of the trade then maybe not, but your class being gimped shouldn't be excusable just by getting a hand from another class' abilities. Warrior is just stupidly op, it does similar aoe damage to dps classes, seriously a tank should not be keeping up with outlaw rogues on aoe when they're already the best aoe class (now imagine what if someone play a warlock or enhancement shaman and tries their best but gets constantly shamed by doing less damage than the tank), every expansion Blizzard states tanks should not rival with dps classes on dps (assuming equal gear \/ skill levels of course, but mdi is already the case of perfected skill and gear comps) and they created this?

Outlaw rogues is another elephant in the room, but the worst part is not only they have amazing utility, they also have uncapped aoe while other melee dps like warriors and shamans can't really mass aoe and quickly fall behind when big pulls are involved. Before nerfing rogues first maybe Blizzard should ensure every dps spec can do proper aoe instead of being useless in a dungeon when m+ is being advertised as an end game progression path alternate to raiding. Class fantasy and diversity be damned if the cost of it is making some specs or whole classes incapable of fulfilling a role properly in an end game challenging content. Classic is coming in a few months, time to leave unviable specs there for the sake of nostalgia and class uniqueness (so you can enjoy being a totem \/ blessing bot etc.) and fix the specs on live so people can actually use all 36 specs in the end game content. Not everyone can be the best, but Blizzard should put effort to narrow the gap.

TLDR: Class balance is horrible and if you cut prot warrior aoe dps in half they'd still be ahead of majority of other tanks. Warrior survivability is in a good, strong spot and can stay there, but their dps in an abomination (even without counting juicy spell reflects) and needs to be nerfed. Monk \/ dk \/ druid tanks need a damage buff so they can hold aggro properly.

Fixi의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T08:36:00-05:00

What changed big-time though, is the way prot warriors are envisioned by the rest of the community.

Oh I assumed it was reaper - which allows the prot warrior to shine like no other tank. I main a prot pal in +10s now, and yesterday I brought my newish prot war to a +10. On a reaper pull I did sustained 50k dps. While maintaining aggro on 30+ mobs, while blocking and dragging them around. Add skill to that (cuz I barely know prot war playstyle) and prot wars are what 150k dps? It is flat out a dps role-level damage while also doing the tank roll, like bringing a 6th player along - if you aren't bringing a prot war along, you are sacrificing a ton.

I really only want to bring my prot war to +10s and up. Reaper was almost designed to ensure prot war dominance.

And reaper is also why shadowmeld is required - its a tool to address an entire affix and save time. Unbeatable. You can make a good case that reaper is designed horribly bad. At the very least, when reaper activates they could give players an undispellable debuff that will not let anyone stealth and give reapers skittish... forcing tanks to... tank. Would change things a lot.

lunakitty의 댓글

on 2019-04-11T09:05:16-05:00

Feral druids weren't even worthy of a comment on why they aren't worthy of being in a M+ #sadkitty