POSTGAME NOTES: “They pretty much had their way with us.”

The Giants are seven days from the trade deadline and they’re now a season-high 7 1/2 games out of first place. Forget those numbers, though. Worry about this one: 45-14. That’s the season-series with the Reds, who outscored the Giants by four touchdowns and a field goal while taking six of seven this season, including three of four this week.

The Reds are a playoff-caliber team, the type the Giants will have to beat in August if they want to get back in this thing. They are the Red Sox, the Rays, the Orioles, the Dodgers, the Pirates … those teams are all on the schedule, and at the moment it’s hard to figure out how the Giants could take a series from any of those teams in the next two months. The math is clear, and the Giants are a week from the deadline.

“Brian and I talk, we talk every day,” manager Bruce Bochy said. “I don’t get caught up in what may happen and I don’t want to be distracted. This is our ballclub right now. My focus has to be on this club and what we need to do. I don’t get caught up in that. We have to do what’s right and that’s what we will do.

“But right now this is our club and we’ll go out there and get this thing turned around in the next series.”

The Cubs are coming to town, and they’re not a good team. But the Marlins weren’t a good team and the Mets weren’t a good team. The Reds are a good team, and the Giants made them look like Hall of Famers.

The Reds had 55 hits in four games, the most in a series in San Francisco by a visiting club since the Dodgers piled up 60 over four games in 1977. That series took place at Candlestick. At AT&T Park, the Reds set records for doubles (15) and extra-base hits (22) by an opponent.

“They pretty much had their way with us,” Bochy said. “We stumbled against a good-hitting ballclub. If you don’t pitch well against this lineup, you’re going to give up some runs.”

How ’bout 35 earned runs? That’s how many the Giants starters gave up in seven games with the Reds this year. They also managed to get just one out after the fifth inning. The game story has more on all that if you’re a masochist.

Tonight, the offense wasn’t much better. The Giants had 15 hits but 14 of them were singles. That’s fine if you string them together, but this lineup couldn’t. The Giants were 4 for 16 with runners in scoring position and left 15 runners on base.

“If you look at the numbers, they’re not all that bad,” Bochy said. “Except for the timely hitting. That’s what wins ballgames for you.”
Just ask the Reds.

— Chad Gaudin had been as reliable as any Giants starter, but like Eric Surkamp and Tim Lincecum before him, Gaudin couldn’t make it to the fifth inning. He said he struggled with fastball command and that kept him from getting ahead. The six runs allowed were his most since 2009.

“This is his first hiccup,” Bochy said.

— Hunter Pence tied his career-high with five hits, all singles. He’s the first Giant with five singles since Edgar Renteria on April 7, 2010. Check back tomorrow for more on Pence, the subject of my off-day story.

— I’m adding Brandon Phillips to the list of opposing players who are just a ton of fun to watch and seem like good dudes. Aside from Brandon Crawford, I don’t think I’ve seen another big leaguer take so many pictures and sign so many autographs in a visiting ballpark. Plus, during four very long games here this week, I got some amusement out of Phillips pointing to the sky every time a Giant hit a single to right.

— Here’s a weird list: Todd Frazier set an AT&T Park record for a visitor when he hit his fifth double of the series. The only two players with five doubles in a series at AT&T Park: Fred Lewis (six in 2008) and Nate Schierholtz (five in 2008).

— Mike Leake gave up 12 hits in six innings … and one earned run. He also had three hits. Leake became the first pitcher since Mike Hampton in 1999 to give up 12 hits and record three of his own. As his next act, he’ll move to Denver because of the quality of the elementary schools.

— Joaquin Arias (appendectomy) went 1 for 4 in his first rehab game for Triple-A Fresno. In his first Triple-A game since being put on the disabled list with a right shoulder strain, catcher Hector Sanchez was 2 for 4 with a solo homer. Also, Francisco Peguero is back after missing over a month with a concussion.

— Jeff Francoeur was pretty stunned after seeing the Tim Hudson injury on Barry Zito’s iPad. Both have played with Hudson. That’d be a terrible way to end a career if it comes to that. What a run that guy had in Oakland, just absolutely incredible. I remember going to A’s games as a teen and watching Hudson, Mulder and Zito dominate. Which reminds me, I told Crawford today that I was just a teenager in the seats when Scutaro hit a walk-off homer for the A’s years ago. “Oh, I tease him and Zito about that all the time,” said Crawford, who also used to watch those two from the seats. Now they’re all teammates. Kinda weird, and kinda cool.

— Nate’s Cubs are coming to town. With the way these two teams are going, it’ll be interesting to see if any players get shipped out of town in the middle of this three-game series.

Keep pence. I don’t care how much he makes because they can afford it. I guarantee they won’t find a better replacement through free agency and they need two of them. Same goes for Timmy at a discount.

Mike Souza

This team has shown no heart, no urgency, no hunger and no passion for a long time… except for beating up on the lowly Padres. It is disgusting. Sabean had a horrible offseason and Bochy has been horrible at in game managing and line up writing this year. The players are lifeless.
No excuse to not sell. The farm system is weak and the big club has quit. Sell, sell, sell!

carmot

“… and I don’t want to be distracted.”
God forbid, you make a mistake on a double-switch or forget to pinch run or not use defensive replacements or…

“If you look at the numbers, they’re not all that bad…”
Hey ALEX? You have more than a few ‘numbers’ in your great write-up here. But yeah, I guess records for 2B, XBH, 55 hits, 35 runs scored, 4-for-16 RISP, 15 LOB, opposing pitcher getting 3 hits, 14 2/3 IP over 4 games, one out by starters after the 5th inning in seven games…

Yeah, “not all that bad.”

More like terrible.

carmot

Oh geez. On my way home from the game, I couldn’t stop thinking of a few ‘game notes’ and things to take away from this loss. First, I should say, I don’t think the game could’ve been more 5uck-ish unless I stepped in dog p00p on my way home.

I enjoy watching the stuff you can’t follow on the limited tv camera shots… So here it is through my eyes.
——

The good first. From what I saw, Rosario was working really well off his fastball. When he popped 93-94, he looked really good. Looked like it was coming out of his hand really well. I don’t see him as a long man of 2+ innings, but easily an option for our 2014 roster.

Even late in the game, Pence was running his as$ignments in RF, to back up middle infield on a single and such. Not a big deal, but he didn’t slow-play it based on the score. He-Who-I-Will-Not-Name would’ve done different IMO.

Abreu battled in his 9th inning AB. Good for him.
——-

Now, the not-good.
Don’t know if the cameras followed Belt all the way to the dugout after his caught looking in the 8th inning. But my eyes followed him all the way. Massive gumby shoulders and poor body language all the way to the bat rack. I mean TERRIBLE. (I actually mean worse than terrible).

How in the heck do you not score more than 3 runs on 15 hits, 2 errors and 2(?) walks? All I can say is that takes real MLB talent. Actually, that’s not all I can say (surprise! lol). Torres-Quiroz-Abreu in the bottom of the 9th does NOT a rally make.

From my seat, and to my eyes, Leake didn’t look unhittable. I was at the game where Cliff Lee came into town and steamrolled us. IIRC, something like 84 strikes and 23 balls. But this clearly wasn’t that. We were BAD. Seemed like plenty of ‘mistake’ pitches that could’ve been taken advantage of, but instead we rolled over and popped up. And swung at bad pitches. Especially when runners were on base.

Our defense was deplorable. I mean to say, it flopped more than Fosbury. Not sure if it was bench management, but Francoeur plays REALLY close to the LF line on most batters (not just LHB). His range based on positioning got really tooled.

There was more than one instance in the game where I wondered what Posey might’ve done in a situational at-bat with runners on. .400 AVG and 1.100 OPS vs Leake… Granted, the bases loaded AB wasn’t his finest career moment.

pacman68

Giants need a spark. Get rid of Francour and Torres. Bring up Brown, Pegs or Kisch.

Restock the farm system with some smart trades.

pacman68

Remember when we thought we would have a pitching dynasty like the Braves in the 90’s????

The Giants’ 4.75 rotation ERA now ranks as the worst in the National League.

Dark Days ahead my friends.

Just wondering

Pretty clear Bochy has no answers and is not willing to do anything different, as in taking advantage of the Giants’ speed. He is a horrible offensive manager … he didn’t win two World Series on offense after all. He was a drag on the offense even in those years. Homeruns bailed him out, not to mention Guillen’s “injury” and Baker being Baker in 2012

JStreet

They’re only dark if you keep your shades on..

The Oracle

Chickentorta (a great name) is exactly right. They need Pence. Say what you want about him, but he’s a legitimate MLB starting corner outfielder. It’s going o be tough enough to fill one corner spot; if Pence is gone how are they going to fill two? If they want him back, the Giants need to show him some loyalty now.

Hunter Pence & Adrianza/C Dominguez
to PIT for A+ SS/2B Alen Hanson?
or to TEX for A LF Nick Williams?

The Politics Guy

G’s have about as good of a chance at winning this year as the Dems do in 2016.

Time to sell!!! Get some young talent back and spend big in the offseason.

carmot

I just want to say I feel horrible for Tim Hudson. I even feel bad for EY Jr. What a horrific way to possibly end a great career. We all know pro athletes put their health on the line, some times more than others. Just the idea of this makes me absolutely sick.

I truly hope Hudson (and a very sympathetic EY) can find peace, with this incident and himself, after such a devastating injury. And heals up well through a long, tough rehab. Not just for his possible baseball future, but simply for his future self.

Best Wishes and Holding a Good Thought.

buzzword

Trade Belt for Bud Norris so they both can go home. Belt to Texas and Bud to the Bat Area.

carmot

buzzword:
“Trade Belt for Bud Norris so they both can go home. Belt to Texas and Bud to the Bat Area.”

I’m sorry to disagree here. Norris isn’t worth Belt IMO. Not by a long shot. I understand YMMV. Now, if it’s for Matt Moore let’s talk! Or Belt is part of a package for Hisashi Iwakuma, oh yeah!

But don’t let me stop you from keeping the ideas coming. Cheers.

SuperDuper

Who would you sell on this team? Or more importantly, what would you possibly get in return.

Only ones with real value are:
Posey
Bumgarner

Some value:
Pence
Cain

Less value:
Timmy

Some value:
Panda
Belt
Craw
Blanco

Couldn’t give away:
Torres
Zito

Farm talent isn’t any better or we’d be seeing them on the field.

Could do a two fer. We give you two guys and you give us one.

Are the seven (may be six now) teams under us THAT desperate?!

I just don’t see it.

The front office gave up good prospects for mediocre (read, not lasting) talent.

SuperDuper

carmot,

I see what you are getting at (1:07 post). Two fer’s for A+ talent.

I just don’t see any way we can get starters for this year from what we have. Looking long term and towards development is probably the way to go.

But will the front office see that?

They have this sell out thing to keep pushing. A+ talent isn’t going to fill the seats for the rest of the year and into the next. 😉

😀

Frankenchrist

“G’s have about as good of a chance at winning this year as the Dems do in 2016”.

LOL. Keep dreaming. Republicans won’t win dick. Both parties are beholden to corporate interests, but the social cons are the dagger in the back.

The golden years are over in SF. 2 rings in 3 seasons is going to have to do. Most organizations would kill for that kind of success.

carmot

Super:
“I just don’t see any way we can get starters for this year from what we have. … A+ talent isn’t going to fill the seats for the rest of the year and into the next.”
—–

Each of those proposals I made are based on the other teams’ NEEDS. Reported by news/sports agencies. Not just some WAG’s on my part. BOS is reportedly interested in Lopez, DET needs a closer and has considered Romo/Lincecum, PIT and TEX are thinking about Pence.

That puts us in a position, where we do not NEED to trade. Leverage. “If you think your playoff lives THIS YEAR depend upon THIS UPGRADE… Well, pay up!” Or we walk.

Do you have any idea how badly Mike Ilitch wants to win one NOW for DET? If we add the right piece, Romo *could* net us Castellanos IMO. Plus, Romo’s value is higher as he’s controlled through 2014.

Lopez is a piece BOS absolutely NEEDS this year. And they know Lopez. Let’s not forget, these guys of ours are battle tested and won championships. That experience is valuable- and would fit right in to the ‘new culture’ in BOS (IMO).

More than two decades of losing in PIT. RF is a black hole for them. If it can help them win either the NL East OR one of the Wild Cards, they might pay a high premium after falling flat the last 2 years in the second halves.

TEX is chasing the AL West and/or a Wild Card. They KNOW Nelson Cruz will be suspended. Pence could absolutely help fill that gap better than almost any other *available* RF commodity.

——-

Maybe this isn’t a great comparison, but A+ talent CAN fill seats. Just read up MIL fans/comments. They quickly want to annoint Jean Segura the new face of their franchise. I won’t use the once-in-30-years-talent of Harper or Trout. But look at Machado or Encarnacion or Reddick or Bruce or Gordon as examples of young talent that fans get excited for. And represent the face of their franchises respectively.

YMMV. Cheers.

carmot

(Oh snap. Moderated for a silly oversight on my part…)

Super:
“I just don’t see any way we can get starters for this year from what we have. … A+ talent isn’t going to fill the seats for the rest of the year and into the next.”
—–

Each of those proposals I made are based on the other teams’ NEEDS. Reported by news/sports agencies. Not just some WAG’s on my part. BOS is reportedly interested in Lopez, DET needs a closer and has considered Romo/Lincecum, PIT and TEX are thinking about Pence.

That puts us in a position, where we do not NEED to trade. Leverage. “If you think your playoff lives THIS YEAR depend upon THIS UPGRADE… Well, pay up!” Or we walk.

Do you have any idea how badly Mike Ilitch wants to win one NOW for DET? If we add the right piece, Romo *could* net us Castellanos IMO. Plus, Romo’s value is higher as he’s controlled through 2014.

Lopez is a piece BOS absolutely NEEDS this year. And they know Lopez. Let’s not forget, these guys of ours are battle tested and won championships. That experience is valuable- and would fit right in to the ‘new culture’ in BOS (IMO).

More than two decades of losing in PIT. RF is a black hole for them. If it can help them win either the NL East OR one of the Wild Cards, they might pay a high premium after falling flat the last 2 years in the second halves.

TEX is chasing the AL West and/or a Wild Card. They KNOW Nelson Cruz will be suspended. Pence could absolutely help fill that gap better than almost any other *available* RF commodity.

——-

Maybe this isn’t a great comparison, but A+ talent CAN fill seats. Just read up MIL fans/comments. They quickly want to annoint Jean Segura the new face of their franchise. I won’t use the once-in-30-years-talent of Harper or Trout. But look at Machado or Encarnacion or Redd1ck or Bruce or Gordon as examples of young talent that fans get excited for. And represent the face of their franchises respectively.

YMMV. Cheers.

carmot

I realize it might just be me, and Bochy is likely never going to set a lineup this way… But I’d be excited for the potential of:

If the Rangers want Pence they better give us Profar. The Giants have to be blown away to give up Pence.

Woj

15 hits and 3 runs scored. LOL! Double LOL!
And who says home runs and extra base hits don’t matter?
Aside form Posey all the Giants are are a lineup chock full of slap slap slappy slapster hitters.

Season ova!
This team has quit, plays with no urgency, no hunger and no passion. Pa-thetic. Sabean and Bochy ought to refund some of their salary – they’ve quit too. Roll out the cliches nightly. Baer pocketing all this cash from a crp product is highway robbery.
Sell now!

choyboy0724

If the Giants trade anybody other than Lopez then I will not follow them anymore this season or future seasons.

hitman

Reds 31 Gnats 11. Ya, i guess they pretty much had their way with the Gnats! Heh,heh,heh,heh!!!

hitman

Say hey gnat fans don’t give up yet. There is still a second half left! Ouch! Heh,heh,heh!!!

Jesse

I would like to know what Carmot was smoking when he posted at 1:29.

Trade Belt for Matt Moore???? LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sabean wont dare to make that phone call to become the laughing stock of baseball…

Belt wont even snatch up Bud Norris alone, the Giants would have to include a minor league prospect.

Btw, Tampa Bay already has a better 1B (James Loney, lol)

MLBFAN36

The fact is, this team won 2 world series in 3 years. Accept that this season is bad and let it go. Winning 2 world series in 3 years is something no Giant fan ever thought could happen. Giants are stacked with some young pitching arms but they are not ready yet. Their talent is in A and AA for pitching. I do agree it is time to bring up Brown just to add some spark to this team if anything. Maybe when Vogey comes back it also brings a jolt to this team. It’s obviously hard to watch our world series champs play like this but like I said…winning 2 world series in 3 years was pretty awesome and unexpected.

Foothills Ryan

The Hudson injury is most unfortunate and saddening. He’s been one of the game’s best pitchers for a long time and has come back from serious injuries including Tommy John recovery. He works movement in both directions better than just about anyone in baseball. It’s always a pleasure to watch him work his 2 seamer and his breaking pitches. He’s been a great pitcher with a bulldog spirit. Hope he makes it back. He’s a free agent next season.

===

Sorry the Giants have been saddening and disappointing as well. Seller mode has been coming for so time now, and it looks like it is here. However, this doesn’t mean the Giants will sell just for the sake of selling.

If Sabean can’t get anything that helps the team next year or blows him away, then I’m sure he’ll stand pat on the Hunter Pence’s, Sergio Romo’s, Javier Lopez’s, and Tim Lincecum’s of the team.

He really should find a way to unload Romo and Lopez though. Not much good relievers can do for a team that’s always playing from behind.

Hunter Pence or Lincecum would have to bring back an OF or a P that could make way into lineup next year. Looking over the prospects lists for teams like the Pirates or the Rangers, I just dont’ see it happening. Some other team would have to enter the picture that currently possesses players the Giants scouting department has coveted and is currently scouting.

I’m sure opposing teams have their scouts in place at Giants games. Hunter Pence and Sergio Romo have been doing their part of late to promote positive reports.

We’ll know what’s up within a week.

The Oracle

I say don’t trade Pence, extend him now. He competes and wants to be here. From Baggarly:

Pence insists that blackout extends to trade rumors. He said he doesn’t hear, acknowledge or pay any mind to them except when he’s being polite and answering a reporter’s question. He said he went about it the same way last July, when the Phillies dealt him to the Giants.

He made it clear he doesn’t want to leave, though.

“I love the city,” Pence told me. “I feel like we owe everything collectively as a group to the fans and the organization. And we still are in this.”

When you proclaim yourself all-in, you’re not looking to get out.

“Absolutely not,” Pence said, in a firm tone. “I love it here and I love this team. I still believe in us.”

He’s a Giant.

wine baroness

You cannot trade Pence or Timmy without getting a 1st round draft pick type player in return.

The fact that the Giants will recieve a 1st round comp for both if they sign elsewhere in the offseason makes them both maybe not so smart to trade.

stickman

Carmot: Thanks for your persistence, your perspicacity and your many labors of love on this thread alone.

It has been hard for many of us fans to keep that stiff upper lip and remain cogent and even a bit upbeat in the face of the team pretty much mailing it in as of late. When your starters get tattooed and your hitters flail and fail with ducks on the pond and your defense dips its toes in doggy doo-doo it sends the message that they are presently beyond caring.

Curiously, Pence might have sealed his fate as a Giant last night by going five for five amidst all that flailing frustration by the rest of the team. Texas has to be scouting him extremely hard. If they are willing to pay through the nose to meet their immediate need, well okay. Ditto, Detroit. Ditto Boston.

There may be other contenders or even pretenders eying the upcoming remnant sale. Sabean needs to be a tough negotiator, able to project the long-range picture for the next three years or so and intelligently address specific needs, psychological as well as talent-wise.

Tough times indeed and humbling for the World Champs, who set an amazing record last night by managing to score a grand total of three runs on only 15 hits (one for XB,even); a pair of walks and a couple errors by the other side. Few teams in baseball history have managed such a feat.

Foothills Ryan

A 6th rounder form 2010 can be a lot more valuable that supplemental rounder from 2014. Player will have already been exposed to multiple progressions of professional baseball.

Hunter Pence probably wouldn’t mind playing back in his home state, Texas, for a contender. He probably wouldn’t mint a few more of his flyballs leaving the park. Sure, he loves it in SF, it’s a great yard with great fans, but he’d also like what Texas offers. Those extra HRs could be excellent for his bottom line. His agent would concur.

choyboy0724

If the Giants trade Pence then I am done with them as a fan.

choyboy0724

In fact if they trade anybody other than Lopez then I am done with them.

Mike Souza

Ohhh, you say the Giants will receive first round draft picks for Hunter and Timmy….well, the way they have used their first round picks in recent years makes me wonder if those are even worth anything.

Matthew

I still have the opinion that you don’t have to be a seller just because of a bad year…we have been riding a roller coaster for the last 4 seasons…and to gut everything, even though we look pretty bad this season, isn’t necessarily the way to go.

I am with Oracle and others…keep Pence, keep Timmy…perhaps make a trade or two but not the wholesale variety so many are pining for.

408svl

i wont trade BELT or PENCE for that matter. i would keep these two players for the long haul. the offense suck because they didn’t allow themselves to sign a LF during the FA season. they could still get that player through trade. since PAGAN’s injury there was nobody who could fill that LEAD OFF spot that was vacated. between BLANCO and TORRES the whole plan was to platoon them. we see the results and none could fill the void that PAGAN vacated. the GIANTS have to do do some tweaking. and for them to move on this season and next, they have to be SELLER and a BUYER.

Madison, Buster, Sergio, should be the only untouchables on this team right now. Everyone’s available at the right price to be perfectly honest. Entire outfield is available and so is the infield along with the whole pitching staff except the two that i’ve previously mentioned . BamBam can leave also and bring in Will Clark or Barry if he wants to do it as the hitting coach. Those two guys will see things in a players swing that Bam Bam cannot see.

Slide Dog

IMHO Pence is the kind of player that good teams have on their roster. Athletic, motivated, good team-mate, hustles on every play. Good players like that aren’t cheap but the G’s can afford it .. I say that he’s among the core that the team builds around going forward.

Another thing that good teams have is reliable starting pitching. With 2010, 2011 level pitching, this team is on top and pulling away in August/Sept. As it is however, the starting crew is tired and in need of an overhaul.

Three pitchers who would look good on the Giants? C. Lee, Y. Gallardo and B. Norris. Add that to Cain & Bumgarner, good to go. Get-er-done.

midasmicah

The Giants might as well trade Belt and get some decent prospects. He could go 5 for 5 with 2 homers and Bochy would sit him the next day. Trade for some prospects and build up the farm system. As a true blue Giants fan, I have to admit it, but it’s time to think about next year. Go Giants!!!

Slide Dog: Very good points, I like Pence(a lot) and I’d hate to see him leave because of the way he plays the game of baseball, if Pence is one of your best players on the team then your probably an average team. Obviously BP is our best player but he desperately needs a power hitting sidekick to put right next to him in the order, we thought it would be Pablo but he’s kind of iffy when it comes to his play you know what i mean. Pablo will have a monster year next year because he’ll be extremely motivated because it’s his contract year. Pablo # ‘s for 2014 if he’s healthy the entire year will be something like 318-25-95 and gold glove caliber defense.

Gotta go now everyone have a wonderful and blessed day today. Smile and make someone’s day.

Mike Souza

Sellers doesn’t mean sell everybody. No need to keep Lopez and Pence. GIANTS are gonna pinch pennies as usual this offseason while teams with less revenue and income spend much, much more. They will not sign any players to big money contracts because Sabean has proved he is a complete failure when it comes to that and the owners won’t give him that type of power.

Keep’n It Real

I’m hoping Nate Schierholtz ends up with the Pirates. He deserves to be involved in something new/good like that.

MLBSF

carmot says:
July 25th, 2013 at 1:24 am
13..
I just want to say I feel horrible for Tim Hudson. I even feel bad for EY Jr. What a horrific way to possibly end a great career. We all know pro athletes put their health on the line, some times more than others. Just the idea of this makes me absolutely sick.

I truly hope Hudson (and a very sympathetic EY) can find peace, with this incident and himself, after such a devastating injury. And heals up well through a long, tough rehab. Not just for his possible baseball future, but simply for his future self.

Best Wishes and Holding a Good Thought.
===========

For a second I thought carmot was talking about one of the Asiana plane crash survivors, or a tsunami victim or some other kind of disaster.

And then I realized he’s only talking about a baseball injury. Good lord. He’ll be walking soon enought carmot. Get a hold of yourself.

smh

MLBSF

It’s funny how everyone here is saying keep Pence, when just a week ago when I gave him a B+, people were flying off the handle calling him a disgrace and demanding he should be traded.

If more people listened to me, the world would be a better (and smarter) place.

smh

Monterey Bay Giants

Everyone realizes that if Pence is traded he can still be resigned in the offseason, right? It would be great to trade Pence for an impact prospect and then sign him right back in the winter. Same can be said for Lopez albeit nowhere the salary he is receiving. As this year helps prove, paying big money for relief pitchers is a horrible strategy as RP are fickle by nature and can hamstring a self-imposed budget.

The Giants FO used up it’s mulligan this year so hopefully we’ll see some actual improvements this year, particularly in the OF and back of the rotation.

2holehitting

45-14 is that not what they have to do to have a chance to win the division?

Polioptila Veintiocho

Mo P says:
July 25th, 2013 at 12:28 am

“Busted Poseur was pulled in game 1 very early, didn’t catch game 2 and was pulled, played game 3 at catcher and then a following night game,sits. He then gets tmw off. If the Poseur gets so worn out, maybe they should just shut him down for the year.”

Admittedly he ain’t much, but he’s all Bochy’s got.

Just wondering

Romo should be gone Aug 1. The Giants have no need for a closer, and closers are vastly overrated anyway. If he brings a ptospect, he can easily be repressed

Polioptila Veintiocho

seasonofweirdness says:
July 25th, 2013 at 7:57 am

“Gnats were 23-15 until May 12. Since then, 23-40.”

Gee, I wonder which are the real Gnats.

Lefty

Henry Schulman actually made some sense for once. He said:

1) The Giants aren’t going anywhere this year.
2) The main reason for that is the sudden decline of the starting pitching.
3) The main reason for the rotation decline is fatigue–long season, short off-season, long spring training.
4) The fatigue issues won’t be a problem in 2014.
5) The Giants WILL pick up Vogelsong’s option and WON’T pick up Zito’s. (No guesses on Timmy because who the heck knows about him?)
6) They shouldn’t trade Pence because they still need him next year. Without him, you’re replacing both corner outfielders, and your center fielder is coming back from a serious injury.
7) It’s not so easy to trade someone and then sign him back–it actually almost never happens.

Anyway, they all seemed like reasonable guesses and/or arguments.

CG

Granted the team can’t hit worth beans. But and I mean a big Butt you don’t have a chance with to score with Panda only being able to go one base at a time. Great he got a couple of hits the last few games but think back. Panda on second base hit to the outfieldPanda stops at third. Happened several times. Panda on first base hit Panda to second. Nobody scores as you can’t get fatso moving. I mean if you send Posey from first twice to try to score and you don’t even try with Panda I mean drop him down and let some others at least try to run the bases on hits.
Of course I realize this team never tries to steal a base for some unknown reason. I mean I think Belt has as many as Torres the “speedster” and 6’4″ Pence leads the team please. Give me a break. Blanco is suppose to be fast why doesn’t he run? In a word Bochey.

walt kovacs

bochy’s low key way of managing works when the team is working

but he is incapable of motivating anyone to play better

1500 wins is a nice jumping off point

time for him to hang it up

walt kovacs

Just wondering

name the last ws winner that did it without a solid closer

thank you

walt kovacs

fine…keep pence

but this team wont be able to afford his asking price

and they dont have any other trade chips that will bring in mlb ready prospects

schulman can guess that the pitching will be fine next season…but thats all it is…a guess

pitching wouldve been better had the mad man at the helm of this club, not traded a solid pitching prospect for a 2 month rental

giants wont have a single sp prospect ready before 2015

im not seeing a turn-around in 2014

unless the giants cede the rights to sj for 1 billion and spend that on buying bodies

ClutchUp

….”Schulman…made sense… for once….”

Bravo, Hank was behind the poor chap who’s now been demoted for batters_box_gate. The crooked batters box detracted the waitstaff so O Henry could get 3 more cheeseburgers.

RIP, starting rotation. We got 8 games out of Gaudin as a starter, I thought we might get 10. Time to sort the herd, and clean the deadwood out of the minor league system. If you’re a low ceiling prospect, that bell tolling is for you.

totalfan62

MLBSF says: July 25th, 2013 at 8:28 am

For a second I thought carmot was talking about one of the Asiana plane crash survivors, or a tsunami victim or some other kind of disaster.

And then I realized he’s only talking about a baseball injury. Good lord. He’ll be walking soon enough carmot. Get a hold of yourself.
————————————————————————-

Insensitive and inappropriate comments. If you consider yourself a fan of MLB, not to mention possessing any human decency, you should understand and appreciate the comments from carmot.

This was a likely career-ending injury to an elite player. “He will be walking soon enough”? Not until he completes major surgery and probably 10-12 months of intensive rehabilitation.

In addition, as Eric Young, Jr broke down in tears and sadness over causing this injury, Huddy–in tremendous pain–took time to shake EY’s hand and tell him he knew it wasn’t intentional, before being taken off the field.

MLBSF: you are so consumed with your sarcasm and hubris that you have lost touch with your decency and humanity. That is sad, and that truly does make me…shake my head.

hole sale

Having not going into sell mode for eons, I’m sure Brian Sabean would be reluctant to pull the trigger. I’m sure the scouting apparatus is rusty as well. They probably wouldn’t trust their scouting reports enough to give Sabean the confidence to swing a deal.

In conclusion, Sabean and staff are not confident or competent enough to be sellers and will stay put.

I read this comment about a specific ‘troll’ this morning on The Atlantic, and immediately thought of this blog. Different motivations, same MO.

“WARNING: troll baiter and sock puppet:
“Rightonthemark” & “HereToSpeak”, aka James Connelly, is here solely to disrupt. That fact should be made public on this forum, as he wrote about his real intentions, below, so other posters, old and new… will know why he is really here:
———-
QUOTE:
“I often go on the forums of the “Progre$$ives” and stir things up. Places like Alternet and such. I think we can disrupt them, undermine their confidence and such by going en ma$$e to their sites and dropping a bomb or two. If anyone is interested in this, please let me know. It can be fun, too. As Ann Coulter said, “Taunting Liberals is like having a pet that does tricks.”——-Dr. Connelly
•Reply•Share › TwitterFacebookLink
[ AKA : “RightOnTheMark”]
———–
His website: http://www.liberaljungle.com/a…
“doc” Connelly Interview: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o…
This is ALL other posters need to know.
And he wont even own his own words about why he is really on this forum. The Coulter tactic at the end of his comment is particularly revealing, devious, hateful, childish and petulant.
He is a pathetic feckle$$ fraud who has been caught sock-puppeting on other forums.
Now watch him flail, squeal, attack, and LIE some more.
He’s been banned on another site for sock puppeting.”

TheNoseKnows

Looking forward to the trade deadline so the hypothetical trades can come to an end. It gets in the way of the blog’s entertainment value (but I guess there’s always hypothetical waiver deals for those who cant help themselves).

Keep’n It Real (“3 in 5”)

@Lefty

Thanks for sharing Henry’s post.

I think his “It’s not so easy to trade someone and then sign him back–it actually almost never happens” comment cements a “do not trade Pence” opinion for me.

I am fearful that if they trade Pence, they’ll get a legitimate LF and shift the darn platoon situation to RF. We (the Giants and their fans) need legitimate starters in all 3 OF positions and stop this “Pat Burrell Part 2” and “We can win with a platoon in OF” pipe dream mindset.

kyle Perizi

TF62:

That post deserves a big , ” Rebel Yell ! “

Polioptila Veintiocho

hole sale says:
July 25th, 2013 at 9:44 am

“In conclusion, Sabean and staff are not confident or competent enough to be sellers and will stay put.”

Before Sabean can become a seller, he has to have something worth seeing. I’d dump the Busted Poseur while his value is at its max, before he injures himself again.

The Wisdom Cow

Walt, he can’t retire now. One more loss to 1,500-1,500, then hang it up.

I’ll give you that, it like an episode of the ignorant, leading the blind, followed by the demented. Mooo.

prima facie

“Restock the farm system with some smart trades.”

===

Dang, why didn’t anyone think of that?

Bapah

TF, Good post!

CU, as I said, Attention Hound*

*Optional alternative.

giantc

Sign — Shin-Soo Choo next year and the lineup looks a lot better. The Giants will need to overpay, but he showed opposite field power at AT&T and if they are going to improve the lineup they need to spend money. The Dodgers would not be very good this year if they did not spend to acquire Gonzalez, Puig, Crawford, and Ramirez over the last two years. Those trades were all about salary not the prospects.

Shin-Soo Choo
Scutaro
Posey
Sandoval — he will get in shape for his contract run.
Pence
Belt
Pagan
Crawford

or

Pagan
Scutaro
Choo
Posey
Sandoval
Pence
Belt
Crawford

Cain — limit his innings the rest of the year
Bumgarner — limit his innings as well
Vogelsong
Gaudin
FA/Timmy
FA

MLBSF

totalfan62 says:
July 25th, 2013 at 9:40 am

In addition, as Eric Young, Jr broke down in tears and sadness over causing this injury, Huddy–in tremendous pain–took time to shake EY’s hand and tell him he knew it wasn’t intentional, before being taken off the field.

====

That was a good story totalfan62. I have a little tear in my eye.

smh
.
.
.
.
MLBSF: you are so consumed with your sarcasm and hubris that you have lost touch with your decency and humanity. That is sad, and that truly does make me…shake my head.

==

This is true. My bad totalfan62

Mo P

Carmot: You ask for Profar for Pence. Texas will probably say no. Then you GET Gallo… and I’m not talking about the attorney that will get Ralph Macchio off for murder.

Mo P

chickentorta: You DEAL Pence… and then guess what? He’s available in the off-season. I think he’ll want to come back as long as we pay the most!

The Giants are in a position where they might have to re-do their deal w/ CSN (not sure when that is up) but they’ll have to start getting into the Yankees, Angels, Dodgers stratosphere if they want to compete.

Where every big name is linked to the Giants b/c they’ll do whatever it takes to win.

That time will come, but I have a feeling it will take a few more years before the Giants catch up. It will take a big TV deal to do it. Like the Lakers, Yanks, Dodgers have done.

they should not bring back Vogelsong. He is done. Find another arm somewhere. Sabes can’t hope and pray that Voggie will have sub 3.0 ERA again. It was a fluke and/or miracle or maybe something else entirely.

ClutchUp

Dj

In the world of how the G’s organization is run, player contracts, Players Unions … what does “not bring him back” really mean?

Just, just, just dump a warrior, bulldog, Willie Mac award winner?

He’s back @ Aug 9th and he’ll be one of their staff pitchers in 2014.

He’s not the problem but the WBC screwed with Vogeys normal spring training routine imo.

ClutchUp

Dj

In the world of how the G’s organization is run, player contracts, Players Unions … what does “not bring him back” really mean?

Just, just, just dump a warrior, bulldog, Willie Mac award winner?

He’s back @ Aug 9th and he’ll be one of their staff pitchers in 2014.

He’s not the problem but the WBC messed with Vogeys normal spring training routine imo.

Can I make a suggestion to those committed to the game of rosterbation. The skilled rosterbaitors usually first pick a style of play that they would want to see played, not a player, first. That’s usually driven by first their home park, and then by the parks of their intradivision rivals. Assuming that style, one then usually goes to the bone or debris pile that is the team being reconstructed, know as the Giants in this case. Then one constructs a core position by position either using the PROPER statistical concepts or a well trained eye/nose for talent/attitude. You don’t dream big dreams, you try and be honest. Once the big league club has been reduced, one then goes to the minor league affiliates and evaluates them with regard to top end expectations and time to get them ready, vs fanbase expectations, existing contract commitments, and cash flow requirements. Once you’ve got a handle on scenarios and time frames, then the marketing department sort of breaks the news to the fanbase through some media shill what the time frames are to set fan expectations. You don’t lie, and you don’t take short cuts. Then comes the tough part, after fan buy in, you start to shed salary and contracts you don’t need, sometimes favorite animals as well.

In step one, who you build a new team around, I go for a style of play pro, not a kid or young talent. I’d build tomorrows Giants around Hunter Pence. But then, I like balls to the wall, full tilt baseball. Some may differ.

2holehitting

pitching.
3) The main reason for the rotation decline is fatigue–long season, short off-season, long spring training.

=================================

fatigue is an lame excuse. The Giants played 4 more games than the Cardinals and played to the exact same time as Detroit and they are both well above 500 and leading their divisions.

Infact the Giants and the Nats are the only team that has fallen off the wagon of the playoff teams last year,

So stop making excuses, they are a train wreck where most of their pitching has been exactly as they were last year, terrible,

The only difference, they are not scoring 5 runs a game like the second half of last year , Posey and Scutero are not hitting 360 in the second half.

Polioptila Veintiocho

dj says:
July 25th, 2013 at 10:31 am

‘they should not bring back Vogelscheße. He is done. Find another arm somewhere. Sabes can’t hope and pray that Voggie will have sub 3.0 ERA again. It was a fluke and/or miracle or maybe something else entirely.”

The same is true of Gnatt Cain and Lincescum but, fortunately, Zito and Gaudin should continue to provide quality innings.

The Dodgers got ‘chemistry’, when Greinke made a fist, and followed through. The guy who was only there for the money, suddenly wasn’t. There turnaround started when Greinke took the first step off that mound.

orngendblck

I would not trade players just to trade players, there needs to be a plan to get better. Pitching is the key to getting better.

Get back young players who will be Giants for several years. I would not trade Belt. I would bring in Bonds to work with Belt on recognizing pitches, Belt swings and misses at too many pitches that are outside the strike zone, especially those down and in sliders. He also hits too many lazy fly balls and pulls too many grounders to the right side that end up as outs. He needs to recognize the pitch and drive it like Bonds use to do.

MLBSF

Mo P says:
July 25th, 2013 at 10:29 am
77..
chickentorta: You DEAL Pence… and then guess what? He’s available in the off-season. I think he’ll want to come back as long as we pay the most!
======

Um, no. For one thing, the Giants aren’t contenders anymore. And second of all, AT&T is not a hitter’s park.

If he’s traded to a contender, he will stay with that contender or move on to another contender. Believe me. He already got his ring with the Giants.

The Oracle

Pence really, really wants to stay. He’s spoken before about never really feeling like he’s had an MLB home. He loves it here and, although he has his faults, always plays with heart and maximum effort. They need him and ought to try and extend him during the season, before free agency. He doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s interested in chasing every last dollar.

MLBSF

2holehitting says:
July 25th, 2013 at 10:43 am
82..
pitching.
3) The main reason for the rotation decline is fatigue–long season, short off-season, long spring training.

=================================

fatigue is an lame excuse. The Giants played 4 more games than the Cardinals and played to the exact same time as Detroit and they are both well above 500 and leading their divisions.
.
.
.
Totally agree.
This whole fatigue excuse is so lame.

The Cardinals and Tigers are perfect examples. How come they aren’t 10 games below .500 and in last place?

The Oracle

I believe Pence is very loyal, but he wants some loyalty in return. If he’s traded, I doubt he comes back.

Anti-Lasorda

Too all the posters out there who are working on the off-season already. I’m right there with you. This season is cooked, but let me say this…..

You’re not going to get Choo AND Pence. It’s an either/or solution. They are arguably 2 of the top 3 or 4 outfielders in the market. Dimestore Larry is NOT going to shell out 120+M to get 2 OF’s. Not no how, not no way. He’s going to be Aaron Rowand gun shy. And frankly, as much as I don’t like him, I agree with that position.

The other names worth considering Ellsbury (talented and injury prone) and Hart (powerful and injury prone). No one else is worth discussing and would be considered a dumpster solution.

What the club needs to work on today is how to turn the following tradeable assets in solutions for at least 6 holes in next years roster.

2B – Re-tool?- Scutaro is under contract and still performing above replacement. Arias is a suitable back-up and under team control.

SS- Acceptable – Crawford has improved with the bat enough to not worry about keeping him up. He’ll never be a top of the order hitter and when Scutaro retires or Panik comes up he may have to move to 2B but he’s not an issue. Should work on shortening up and hitting better with RISP, but the hole team should really.

3B – Reload – Panda is fat, he’s never going to be what he should be long term. He might be for next years with about 60M reasons of motivation. Ideally I would move him for something, but right now his value is low and the club is going to have to bet on the come he pulls a contract drive season together.

LF – URGENT! – Blanco is a great fourth, and he’s done Yeoman’s work, but you can’t go to battle with him everyday for 162. Torres was never an answer. He would have been veteran insurance as a fifth OF on any real team and at best Blanco has his role. Your fifth should be a kid you’re grooming. Problem is the Giants already ran 2 prospects through and ruled them all wanting for one reason or another- Pegeuro, Perez. Need to see what Brown and Keisnick have between now and November.

CF- Injured – Pagan’s coming back whether you like it or not. Blanco is a wonderful defensive oriented back-up. You’re good here.

RF- OPEN- Pence is a free agent. I already mentioned the market above. You get to pick one best case. You lose out on all four and it’s helter skelter.

SP – URGENT! – 3 openings available. Buma nd Cain are under contract and you have to hope Cain gets embarrassed by this season to be hard back at it next season, rather than complacent he’s got $128M in the bank. Vogey gets an audition for his affordable option which you might be forced to pick-up not want to try to re-build the whole staff at once. Zito is toast. Timmy will be interesting to watch between now and year end to see his market. The no-no forces you to play out the string with Timmy. 12 more starts will tell you where you want to go.

RP – Un-load – Could always use a few, but Sabean has almost always been able to polish turds in here. From a sheer roster stand point playoff proven bullpen arms is a strength and would be for this club if the starters could go 5.

Start pluggin’ away fellas….

Just wondering

The last winner without a solid closer? The Giants 2012. Romo replaced Casilla during the season, and many pitchers had saves.

In 2011, the Cardinals had Frenando Salas as a closer, but he had no saves in the postseason, and of course he’s nothing before or since.

Some closers have “great” years without performing all that well, emphasizing how misleading the “save” metric> Brad Lidge had 41 saves in 2008, but his WHIP was 1.23. Amazingly, he got Cy Young votes for his arduous 69 inning workoad and a generous WAR of 2.4.

But soak that in … a so-called perfect year, and he meant 2 wins to the Phils.

The statistical fact is, having one closer (as opposed to going with the best matchup) does not raise the win or save percentage of a team. “Closers” are theater, but they aren’t good baseball, any more than using the same pinch hitter. But baseball IS entertainment, so the closer is now considered mandatory.

I don’t agree everywhere, but a question. IMO Blanco and Crawford are more or less twins at the plate. From what we’ve seen, they are hanging as league average hitters ( La-BA .252). Defensively Blanco may be better in LF than Crawford is at SS. So why the Crawford preference? (unless he goes to 2B, of course). Scutaro won’t be on board for a rebuild IMO. He’s a defensive liability now.

Polioptila Veintiocho

2holehitting says:
July 25th, 2013 at 10:43 am

“3) The main reason for the rotation decline is fatigue–long season, short off-season, long spring training.”

In reality, the main reason for the rotation decline is lack of talent.

choyboy0724

This team is not rebuilding. Maybe retooling or tweaking but certainly NOT rebuilding

totalfan62

At this point I just hope we can pull out of this malaise and not finish below .500…or in last place. I’m not throwing in the towel, but we’ve seen some very poor, uninspired baseball these past few weeks, and we have many weaknesses to address and resolve. Here’s where “balanced and pragmatic” sets in.

I still believe we have the talent and wherewithal to finish with 81 wins, which all things considered would be pretty good for this year. That means we have to go 35-26 over the last 61 games. I don’t believe the Padres will finish at .500, so at the worst it’s fourth place…we hope.

We can achieve that by stabilizing the rotation, with Vogey returning and either Zito getting it together or we hang on with Gaudin. The muddled OF scenario must be stabilized, and like Lefty I’d rather see Perez, Peguero, Kieshnick or Brown than retreads like Tanaka, Torres, Francoeur and even Blanco (Gregor’s uninspired and sloppy play of late is a genuine concern).

We have enough bullpen arms. Establish the seven-man team, define roles and get them into a groove. Pablo and Pence: gotta deliver in the clutch behind Buster. This has hurt us as much or more than the loss of Pagan. Let the Brandons play everyday regardless of who’s pitching. It’s the only way we’ll know for sure what we have or don’t have.

Baer and Team Sabean need to get to work immediately on figuring out where we’re coming up short in terms of player development and fix it. It is inexcusable for a franchise with this much revenue to be consistently ranked in the lower one-third of minor league talent.

If we’re going to compete with the Dodgers, the payroll should be $160-175MM, at least until we have young talent forcing their way on to the MLB roster. I believe the Giants can concurrently field a contending team and build a strong farm system, but it will take substantial investment on all sides.

That’s my “get it done, folks” rant for the day.

Mike Souza

Wisdom Cow, where have you been and why did you leave the blog? Anyways, welcome back. S@rgento will be back soon too…or not. 😉

Bapah

A-L, good analysis. CC, I agree, Crawford will probably go to 2nd after Panik plays one year here. They might alternate for awhile. Scutaro could be a hitting coach after a year teaching in the minors. I actually think Craw has a better upside than Blanco. He can/will improve his hitting and he is smarter than Blanco and less emotional even though Grag has more innate talent. Craw’s a smart ball player; I think something is wrong with him right now, but don’t know what it is. Anyway, AL, good place to start.

Gamertude

#99, Totalfan62 says:

“If we’re going to compete with the Dodgers, the payroll should be $160-175MM, at least until we have young talent forcing their way on to the MLB roster. I believe the Giants can concurrently field a contending team and build a strong farm system, but it will take substantial investment on all sides.”

Agree completely, payroll should at a minimum, given the size and support of the fan base, be in that range. Anything less is simply lining the owners pockets and exposes holes if things don’t go ideally (see this year vs. last year).

Anti-Lasorda

Looking at WAR, the commonly most important pieces for the Giants to replace are quality starting pitchers.

This year is as easy and simple to understand looking at WAR of the staff the last 3 years

interesting thoughts on Scutaro as a coach. You can already see a few Giants hitters, Crawford as an example, trying to adapt to his hitting style. What Scutaro seems to have perfected is a sure fire way to get contact. I wonder if Belt is watching? Scutaro’s bat seems to take root in the hitting zone his bat barrel is in their so long. I’ve seen few guys who can stay back on a pitch longer.

I wouldn’t argue on the upside between Crawford and Blanco, but I don’t think it’s skills based, I just think Crawford adapts and changes better.

Bapah

TF, you are a good baseball guy, and you are sorta right, but this season is toast, so forget about salvaging it, except for the opportunity to do two things. One, start a$ses$ing the MiLB talent and get some of these guys up here before the end of the season and give them playing time to see what we have. Two, play and trade for draft picks next year, forget standings, OJT for kids and QOs for those that we don’t know about. Time to weed the MiLB garden and fertilize the big club.

CC, that is Craw’s true asset. And Craw earlier was looking alot like Scoots for a few games. Plus Craw’s a good worker.

South City Jim

Someone earlier said you can’t give Zito away. I disagree. You won’t get much in return but offer Zito to Atlanta to replace Hudson and agree to pay half his remaining salary and option. I say Atlanta goes for it. He gives them 5-6 good starts down the stretch it almost guarantees them the NL East title. Cost = $7 million. Giants save $7 million.

Bapah

CC, if you can look at some earlier games, you’ll notice Crawford was standing more upright (a lot like Scut’s stance) when he was hitting well, and with oppo line drive power. Now, he’s a little more bent over in his stance that he retains through his swing. Plus, his bat is a tad slower, hence I think there is something wrong with him, that and his range at short is a little less for the last several games.

Anti-Lasorda

Channel, it a positional thing. I agree with your assessment of Blanco and Crawford, but SS is much harder to replace and is more commonly viewed as a defensive position where as LF can have Pat Burrell. Also: Crawford 26, Blanco 29. Crawford still has room to grow (a itty bitty), Blanco is what he is. Lastly Blanco, arbitration 2, Crawford isn’t arb eligible yet.

I like Gregor as a ball player, and think he’s a great guy to have on your roster I just wouldn’t want to run him into LF everyday given a choice. If Pagan wasn’t under contract, I would be fine playing him in CF if I had two sluggers in LF and RF to make up for the offensive needs.

Anti-Lasorda

Channel, it a positional thing. I agree with your analusis of Blanco and Crawford, but SS is much harder to replace and is more commonly viewed as a defensive position where as LF can have Pat Burrell. Also: Crawford 26, Blanco 29. Crawford still has room to grow (a itty bitty), Blanco is what he is. Lastly Blanco, arbitration 2, Crawford isn’t arb eligible yet.

I like Gregor as a ball player, and think he’s a great guy to have on your roster I just wouldn’t want to run him into LF everyday given a choice. If Pagan wasn’t under contract, I would be fine playing him in CF if I had two sluggers in LF and RF to make up for the offensive needs.

avwh

How many of the other teams in the last post-season (DET, STL, CIN) that are also playing really well this year had nearly half their rosters playing in the WBC?

It does seem a bit uncanny, how many of our guys who played in the WBC are having very subpar or injured (or both) seasons: Pagan, Vogey, Panda, Casilla, Affeldt; even Scutaro with his back issues had a horrible start, but recovered fairly quickly in his case.

Polioptila Veintiocho

choyboy0724 says:
July 25th, 2013 at 11:18 am

“This team is not rebuilding. Maybe retooling or tweaking but certainly NOT rebuilding”

Obviously. You can’t rebuild until you have a foundation.

Bapah

I surely agree with Belt taking some pointers from Scutaro, especially about confidence and a quicker swing/shorter to the ball. Quicker swing = more oppo. Right now he can’t/doesn’t let the ball get deep enough.

I was just curious about your thought process, I see where your coming from.

Bapah,

you could very well be right. Especially with Arias out, and the no show by Abreu.

Matthew

Anti and Total- great posts and gives all of us reasoned analysis to chew on.

I know to many it is frustrating , especially seeing the fruits of the LA bank account making Coletti look like he knows what he is doing.

After 2011, Sabean did take a look in the mirror. I expect the same after this season. Yes, he and Bruce have that hand/glove symbiosis about veterans…and we appear to be very thin in the minors. But, to the point that TF made, we do have money…

We have become a destination for free agents. It is a solid player-first organization. It isn’t a strong off season for marquis FA’s , but we can be players. The NL West absolutely has become the AL East. Get used to it fans…but, really, get used to it, front office.

I do believe Sabean will try to do what needs to be done. Hopefully, Baer is paying attention to LA, and sensing fan unrest…and will sell the ownership group on the theory of happy fans = sales = happy owners.

I still lean towards the overview of TF62 that we have the core, and need to make supporting moves rather than that it is a total disaster. Off years don’t always mean these players have lost their potential or talent overnight

that’s not what my calendar says, but it’s certainly what MLB’s narrative wants you to think. Hanley Rameriz remarkable turn around at the plate marks their offensive success not Puig’s, but Greinke’s run in with Quentin changed the team dynamics on the Dodgers.

Bapah

CC, two things I notice. He does two things that are somewhat related. His rotation around his central core is too slow, so even though he has good bat speed it isn’t fast enough plus the inside pitch is still his nemesis and until he can keep his hands in more he’s still going to show that weakness. Plus getting the hands in closer will help get his core rotation quicker. That and using his legs (one of his best baseball assets) more to speed his bat/core. One of the reasons he’s pulling the ball too much is he’s compensating for swing deficiencies. That and fear of failure.

Anti-Lasorda

Matthew,

On field talent is mediocre….

Starting staff is cooked and need of overhaul.

4 of 5 starters have a negative WAR. You get to keep one as a bounceback year, but you can’t count on 4.

Cain is under contract, so you made that choice last year.

That means, you spend $8M buying out Vogey and Zito and start looking for 3 starters. Besides they are both over 35. Over 35 and negative WAR means you’re cooked.

Timmy, well, I don’t think you know, really know what you want to do yet. I waffle from start to start. You see flashes, and then a 5 run inning where he’s throwing BP. Depends on price, and if he can run 12 good ones together between now and October. As a faux GM, worst case, I submit a qualifying offer and pay him 14M next season. He implodes, I convert him to a closer where he isn’t too grossly overpaid. He decline and goes elsewhere isn’t horrible, I get a sandwich pick, and can move on without a wildcard in the rotation. Wouldn’t be a big deal if I had some rotation depth down in the minors…….

it’s not about winning and losing, although it becomes so soon enough, it’s about them all being willing to pull together. For instance, I’d argue that Puig would have ripped that clubhouse apart had the ‘Greinke event’ not happened. I’d add also, there is no discounting how important Mark McGwire has been. Most of these young guys on the Dodgers have never seen a ballplayer with fire in his eyes like that. So it’s, as you suggest, more than one thing. But reading about the Dodgers, something changed after that Padres game that created a fertile field, IMO.

The Oracle

This year, Forbes valued the Giants at $786 million, up 22% from they year before. Obviously, that came from the financial benefits of winning. Especially because of the Dodgers, its going to cost more to be competitive now. I hope the owners take the long view and realize that boosting the payroll, if done properly, ultimately makes them more money.

Keep’n It Real (“3 in 5”)

Can we please wait until the end of the season before we even talk about buying Vogelsong out?

If they guy comes back and pitches like we’re accustomed to, you keep him…even if you re-negotiate his 1 yr into a 2 yr deal (lower annual payout). Like I said before, no SP in the minors will be ready to make an impact in 2014…maybe even 2015…and Giants aren’t going out and getting 2-3 FA pitchers for 2014.

I hope the spend what they need in Fresno fixing that disaster, before they worry about payroll. I’d say, you don’t worry about expensive talent, beyond the few you use as a teams nucleus, until you make your feeder organization flush.

Ty

A bold franchise would promote Gary Brown and Heath Hembree. If this season going down the drain you might as well let those two sink or swim at the major league level.

Keeping them in Fresno the entire season raises more questions than answers them.

2holehitting

such disdain for Blanco. He is top 5 outfielder while playing 2 different possitions. If it takes 2,000 AB’s like people like Clutch upchuck now says to be a Bonified MLB hitter, he has another year to go just like BB9 needs 2 more years before his brain clicks. Only BB9 does not inspire intelligence in his good ol boy texas demeaner.

Giantc

The Dodgers would be thinking Choo and Pence — not one or the other. When the Red Sox started thinking that way they became equals with the Yankees. It was easy to beat the Dodgers when McCourt was the owner — that will not be the case in the future. Also Baer is just the front o the ownership group. The majority owner is worth $4.3 billion — far and away the richest owner in baseball.

2holehitting

ith Vogey returning and either Zito getting it together or we hang on with Gaudin

===============================

Man enough about Zito, he is a career 4.5 ERA with the Giants no more no less. That is 7 years in the making. He never had it together. Your love for him last year was misplaced as was your thinking a 4.4 era was awesome.

Giantc

CC — I agree with investing in the minors as well. But they have shown little interest in spending there as well. Theo Epstein said this was the best int’l market he had seen and the Giant barely played while the Cubs who have about the same record are going to pay some tax because they have spent far over their int’l allotment.

MLBSF

smh @ Mo P.

If the Giants were willing to pay the most, they would be doing what the Dodgers are doing. All I’m saying is don’t make it sound like the Giants would be willing to pay the most to bring back Pence if they trade him.

And no I don’t think Pence is leaving no matter what. I want him to stay. My point is if the Giants trade him to a contender, he’s not going to want to come back to San Francisco because the Giants aren’t contenders anymore, and he would be playing an unfriendly hitter’s park.
.
.
.

totalfan62 says:
July 25th, 2013 at 11:19 am

I still believe we have the talent and wherewithal to finish with 81 wins, which all things considered would be pretty good for this year.
===

<insert price is right loser horn sound effect)

LOOOOOOOOL! How is that a pretty good year totalfan62?

World Series champions down to a lousy .500 and that's a pretty good year? smh

Believe me, the Giants are going to be 20 games under .500 at the beginning of September. They need to win practically every game down the stretch to come close to breaking even.

“I’m not a give-in guy,” Pence told me. “I’m a guy that enjoys the competition, enjoys the challenge, and I hope to look at this as a way to grow stronger and continue to push. And not just myself, but everyone. There’s been a lot bigger leads in one month switch around. So you’ve got to black out one game at a time.”

“I love the city,” Pence told me. “I feel like we owe everything collectively as a group to the fans and the organization. And we still are in this.”

“Absolutely not,” Pence said, in a firm tone. “I love it here and I love this team. I still believe in us.”

This is the sort of man and ballplayer you build around. You’ve got to shoot him dead to stop him from coming after you.

Anti-Lasorda

KIR,

Keep it Real wit ewe bro…

Vogey in his last calendar year

34 starts, 197 IP 14W-10L – 4.38 ERA, WHIP 1.38

Last 20 starts it gets ugly
161 IP 8W – 9L – 4.80 ERA WHIP 1.48

Last 10 starts
57.1 IP 3W-4L – 7.40 ERA WHIP 2.26

He’s 35 the trend isn’t good. If it wasn’t for a great 4 game stretch in October we would be comparing him to Zito.

He’s done. Sorry. Time for the enchilada stand in CF.

Now I hope he proves me wrong in Aug and Sept, and I’ll go take a look on Friday night, but I dunno….

BKGiant

One difference from this year to last:
In 2012, we brought in Nady, who if I remember right, in his first game, hit a chopper down the 3rd base line that knocked in a couple of runs and won the game for us.
In 2013, we brought up Francouer, who seems to be best at rally-ending double plays.
In both years we brought in very circumspect players, but last year it somehow worked. There seems to be very little rhyme or reason. This is baseball.
It also makes me think that I agree with folks who say we should not gut the team. This is largely the team that won it last year. These are good players having a very unfortunate year. Let’s make some improvements and get back in it next year.

paul in p.v.

Snorkel is amazed at the angst-ridden GMs who want to throw Brandon Crawford off or under the bus, or replace him with Joe Panik – isn’t Panik hitting about the same at AAA? Remember Tejada/Cabrera?? Remember last year when Craw hit .249??? He’s hitting .274 now, and is a really good SS. That is not a hole that needs plugging.

Snorkel’s too young, but I recall the Pads trading the young Ozzie Smith for Gary Templeton. Templeton is not in Cooperstown.

I don’t want to trade Crawford, just move him to his natural position, 2B, when the time is right.

hitman

Breaking News: KNBR(Gnat flagship station)predicted today that the Gnats season is over. No need for anyone to be posting here this year! Heh,heh,heh!!

Foothills Ryan

Gary Brown just isn’t making enough noise in Fresno to come up. He’s still learning AAA pitching. His OBP is .311 in the month of July. Down from his hot June when it was .336. Neither month is good enough.

Heath Hembree might as well get the call – after Romo and/or Lopez is dealt.

I pretty much agree with Anti-Lasorda on most accounts. You know what they say about ‘great minds’. All in all, the talent core isn’t strong enough. Vogelsong and Pagan check out and the team crumbles? That says more about the rest of the team than what it says about Vogey and Angel.

Outside of the great Buster Posey, there’s just not enough good surrounding him. Guys that are tough outs make great players. Buster Posey strikes out only 11.3 % of PA. He walks 9.3 %. And you know he has extra base hits. He is one of the toughest outs in baseball. The rest of the supporting cast have enough exploitable holes that pitching through them is not a daunting task. Or if they make good contact, they don’t have enough power to do damage.

Bumgarner is a very good pitcher, but he’s no Kershaw. Matt Cain has pitched more like Ricky Nolasco than the artist formerly known as Matt Cain.

The farm is just about a barren wasteland save for the tender seedlings in a greenhouse.

The Giants need one heck of an offseason and major bounce back/career years to compete next year.

Let’s revisit the roster plans for some Saturday morning rosterbation. Maybe some knowns will be known (as far as trades or probable trades) by then.

See you then.

& remember to always stay on the sunny side of life and to never move Brandon Crawford to second base – that’s like staring at the sun.

Anti-Lasorda

Believe it or not, Pythagorean has us 2 games worse.

BOCHY IS STILL DOING A GOOD JOB!

Boch vs the Formula as a Giant

2013 +2
2012 +6
2011 +6
2010 -2
2009 +2
2008 +4
2007 -6

Total +12

BTW, the formula says 2010 was the Best team under Bochy’s tenure, 94 wins, but he under performed as a manager.

History will list 2012 as his best team, and should be considered his 2nd best managing job after 2011. That offense was historically bad and still won 86 games. (It helps having a staff that has a combined WAR of +14.

Bapah

Here’s the things I most admire about Pence. Pence has horrible technique with his batting, yet he still hits the ball hard (except the outside slider) and works on his swing (although it sucks). He doesn’t throw the ball correctly, yet has a strong and accurate throw. He NEVER gives up.

I suspect that he was very successful as a kid who never had good skills coaching. By the time he was confronted with skilled coaches he already had poor technique, but was successful. Either he was reluctant to change the way he did things OR he was too successful for coaches to try and teach him without endangering his success.

He’s…eccentric, yet is 100% in it. An excellent team guy. Personally, I think he’s keeper. Just don’t let him coach your kids.

MLBSF

Foothills Ryan says:
July 25th, 2013 at 12:53 pm

Bumgarner is a very good pitcher, but he’s no Kershaw.
======

LOOOOOOOOOL

Listen to Foothills Ryan, the big Dodgers/Angels?Pirates/A’s fan.

I thought you cancelled your account Foothills Ryan when everyone ran you off?

smh

fergie348

Right field for us is definitely not the problem. It’s been almost all Pence and we’re almost 20% above ML average offensively at the position (118 RC+).

We are *significantly* below league average at 3 spots on the diamond this year. Can you name them?

Anti-Lasorda

I would keep Pence too, he’s the best OF on the market IMHO. But it comes down to money and years like all things. I would try to do it now. If I couldn’t sign up, ask him where he would like to go and cut a deal.

The Front office will gamble on the resign and sandwich pick. I’m okay with that.

Mike

“Bumgarner is a very good pitcher, but he’s no Kershaw”

What’s your point? There’s only one kerhsaw. Bum is still easily an Ace.

Anti-Lasorda

Fergie,

SP#2
SP#3
SP#4

Oh offensively?

LF
3B
1B

Bapah

Total agreement, A-L.

fergie348

On the pitching side, the relief has been better than last year in every significant category. The starting pitching has been worse but the core numbers with two exceptions have been very similar.

A higher walk rate combined with a significantly higher home run rate has led to a lot higher starter ERA. Strand rate is down too, so it’s the walks, dingers and hits with RISP that have killed us..

Bapah

A-L, not with post 150. Don’t think 1B is the is the black hole. CF, maybe?

fergie348

Anti, you got 2 of three on the offensive side. We’re above league average at 1B, which might come as a surprise. Maybe it’s all the innings Posey has spent there..

CF, LF and 3B have been the problem spots from an offensive perspective.

Matthew

CC, what is it that tells you 2B is Crawford’s natural position? He’s been a shortstop his entire life.

The major difference between Kershaw and Bumgarner right now, is that when they leave a game, Kershaw leaves with a lead and a competent BP that can hold that lead and keep runners Kershaw put on base there on base. Bumgarner draws Kontos, or the equivalent. If a Giants reliever could actual hold a run, Bumgarner ERA, for instance, would be at or lower than Kershaws.

ClutchUp

Alex’s DAY OFF story is right around the moment.

Topic: Hunter Pence

Bapah: Agree 100 pr/cent.

fergie348

Pitching is pretty volatile – we obviously need pitchers behind Cain and Bum but we’ve been pretty good at finding guys in the past that can do the job. I’m not really worried about that side.

What to do long term for outfield help and third. That’s what I’d focus on in any trade talks. Trade Sandoval? I’m ready to do it – we can’t move him to first because we have a first baseman of the future. His name is Buster Posey..

We have good catchers down on the farm. Panik is the heir apparent at 2nd when Scoots can no longer scoot. Third basemen and outfielders? Not so much..

Bapah

Matt, many folks within the organization feel that Panik will eventually swap places with Craw. I love him there especially with his great arm. Some think he’ll lose a step or two to Panik. Panik will come up as a 2B, but given the org’s observations a switch will eventually be made.

I’ve never heard this, for what it’s worth. — Alex

pacman68

We can’t lose Pence. It’s a starvers market. I don’t trust Sabean and Bochy to fill two holes in the outfield. That could be a freaking disaster.

fergie348

At this point in what is turning into basically a lost season Brandon Belt needs to play *every day*. No more platoony toons, play him somewhere every day. Play him in LF when Posey needs a break from catching. Play him against tough left handed pitching. Rest him once a month for the rest of the way. Come on – he needs to show what he can do against all comers so we can be prepared for 2014.

I put in my obligatory..so was Sandberg, until he wasn’t…, but to be serious, Crawford is slow. I’m not saying he doesn’t get to most balls, he does, but arm, range to his left, and footwork make him stick out. In this Reds series, there were at least 3 balls he almost got to that an Elvis Andrus or Profar type would have. He’s a B to B+ SS IMO, but he’s an A to A+ 2B. Visualize him in Scutaro’s place in those drops Scutaro had. Maybe in a year or two when he’s settled in, even he will see it.

giantc

I am not sold on Panik — he needs to hit better in the minors to get excited about him.

The Oracle

I really don’t get the thinking that Crawford is moving to 2B. It’s based on nothing. And Panik? He’s a question mark himself right now, as he’s not exactly tearing it up in Richmond.

From the outfield list, the only name that jumped off the page for me was Choo. I’d love to see him in our outfield..

fergie348

Oh, and the 3B list is a joke. Maybe we keep the Panda and ride herd on him in the off season. Should Camp Panda be a 24/7/365 kind of thing? If he lost 40 lbs he’d be a pretty good 3B..

Monterey Bay Giants

Stop arguing about Crawford playing 2B or SS, he’s playing SS and it’s not going to change, all this discussion is off topic and a waste of space.

Filling the LF and CF spots, resigning Pence, possibly trading Sandoval are the main issues.

And #161, fergie, completely agree, if Bochy continues to pull the platoon garbage we will be in a perpetual state of doubt with Belt and will simply hinder his continued developed for 2014. Play him EVERY DAY.

ClutchUp

I agree with much of what A-L says except this HUGE exception. Baer and company (after allowing Zito to sit out on the Original Patio with Mychael Urban and named Sandoval – Kung Fu Panda – is way too far invested with Sandoval (and Lincecum’s) merchandizing worth to move 48 until after/until he fails in his contract year. (Something I don’t think will happen).

Sandoval is a third baseman. He was in MUCH better shape when Brother Michael was playing for SJGiants and while/when his mom lived close to the neighborhood of the then San Bruno fire tragedy. The girl friend after the baby mama-wife was a fraud … the one that ‘owned’ the Nutritional Company conveniently located in ARZ.

Besides his enormous weight issues, he’s not seeing the more early enough so he is guessing on top of guessing. I bet he doesn’t see the sphere until its entering his hitting zone and by that time forgetaboutit.

Also Scutaro’s methodology IMO is not transferable. It works for him, but it surely didn’t work for Blanco early on who was mind-doming himself trying to emulate Scoots way of doing things.

Hitting coaches at the ML level are “Suggestion-Makers” – nothing more. MOST if not all major leaguers only real bond is with their minor league hitting instructor who somehow built up something already good, or took a struggling minor leaguer and tweaked him into the big leagues.

Whether right or wrong – it’s THAT guy who major leaguers refer to. The ML guy is usually a former ML journeyman who topped out @ .242 or worse.

There are exceptions but the ML hitter who was a good-great hitter – guarantees nothing when he imparts his knowledge to the now ML hitters under his tutelage. Guys like Muelens and the other 29 in existence are baby sitters, shrinks, “that-a-boys” and caddies.

Also why does everyone care so much about Hudson.
I’ve never seen anything like it.

smh

Polioptila Veintiocho

If the Gnats can just find the right ownership group, they could return to relevance within a decade or two.

fergie348

Alex, if you believe in the ‘Wisdom of crowds’ then we’re rapidly approaching a consensus for how to approach the next 2 months of Giants baseball. Please pass it on..

Monterey Bay Giants

#172, CC, I don’t even know what the hell that means. No this is not a class discussion with a particular topic, I did not mean it that way, but simply wanted to point out how absolutely absurd is to have a conversation about Crawford moving to 2B, a position he’s never played, while possibly inserting a prospect who may very well never even be a regular MLB player, at SS.

I just prefer to discuss issues that actually effect the Giants and the relatively significant changes the team will undergo next year. Although you can keep wasting time discussing non issues.

Bapah

Sorry, Alex, for being too dogmatic and “know-it-all”. I should have said “may” instead of “will” be made. And instead of many within the org. I should have said some. I should be more precise with my choice of words, but am oftentimes careless.

I wasn’t saying you’re wrong — I’m sure you know people that I don’t. Just pointing out –because the discussion was heating up — that I’ve never heard this from anyone inside the organization. In fact, this spring Panik told me he would move to second eventually. — Alex

go right ahead, and feel free to avoid the rare discussion on Crawford’s positioning. I would like to say, it doesn’t make any difference that he’s never played 2B, it’s what his skill set is tailored for. I have an opinion, perhaps a not widely shared one, but I had the pleasure actually watching Ryne Sandberg, a SS, become maybe the best 2B who ever played the game. Crawford, IMO, has that skill set. Call me greedy, but I’d suggest unless you saw Sandberg, you’ve never seen the kind of magic he brought defensively to the diamond. I’ve seen whole crowds at Wrigley say WOW at once as he did things that just seemed physically impossible. Crawford could do that too, IMO.

Off the soapbox now.

The Oracle

Nothing: meaning not based on reality or any plan the Giants have. Who are these sources within the organization that see Crawford moving to 2B? It’s so secret that Alex has never heard of it. They’re also disguising the plan by having Panik play 2B at Richmond.

I don’t have any sources other than what my eyes show me. There is just one whole hell of a lot Alex hasn’t heard about, I suspect. I have heard/ read about Panik as a SS/2B combination, but I have no clue as to in what role. I’d also suggest, when they pop the shut on this season, plans made before that mean zilch until the brain trust figure out what the plan going forward is. I’d also suggest that no matter what the plan ultimately is, none of the blog rosterbaitors have a clue either, except for Stan and maybe Pac who always seem to have guessed right.

Anti-Lasorda

I’m hurt channel…

*lol*

Central Coast CCS Fan

OK – here’s my nickel’s worth. As part of the G-Men hopefully bidding adieu to Zito and Lincecum, I would like to see the Giants add Bud Norris to the team – young, cheap for now, locked up beyond this year. Assuming a healthy and capable Vogelsong returns, a potential 2014 rotation of Cain, Bumgarner, Vogelsong, Gaudin and Norris doesn’t look too bad. Then perhaps with the freed up dollars (or some of it) from Z & L being gone, they could resign Pence and add a power hitting left fielder.

TheNoseKnows

So therefore, Crawford is essentially playing out of position?

fergie348

CCSF – where do you see that ‘power hitting left fielder’ coming from? Free agency or trade? Or from the farm?

fergie348

I think those here that have written Panik off because of his low batting average and lack of power at Richmond should probably reconsider. His core stats are pretty Scutaro-esque. He’s got walk and strikeout rates that are excellent – his BABIP is at .280 so I’d imagine he’s running into some bad luck unless his batted ball profile is just messed up. BABIP is pretty volatile and he’ll bounce back. He’s only 22, so let’s give him a couple more years before we write him off. If he jumps to Fresno next year, he’ll be 23 playing in the PCL. That’s pretty good..

E-B

well…

I really like (to imagine) some of the very good trade proposals.
For my $, the question is, do you have a legitimate replacement for the outgoing guy who can produce at the same or better level?

———————–

re: Pence.
He ain’t pretty, his technique works for now, but dunno if it will as he ages…but, one point that should be recognized is his durability.

That is a key point worth considering, esp. for a team that lacks depth in every position on the field. If you trade for a shinier penny, but lose it to injury, and end up w/ a bunch of backup guys, well, that’s what we have now.

I sorta like Michael Morse, now w/ SEA, but he’s just coming back from an injury. He’s a better hitter than Pence, maybe not as good D as Pence, probably won’t cost much, but he’s MIA due to injuries far more than Pence.

If they can find an equivalent, durable, major league RF in exchange for Pence…who is NOT facing impending suspension for PEDs, + a couple of top tier prospects to boot, well, maybe.

Otherwise, no.

(As for the notion that we could trade him now, and get him back.
It’s ridiculous. Getting traded is usually a slap in the face.
Would a guy return to the place that did that to him?)

———————–

re: Crawford/Panik.
Anti, have you watched Panik at SS?
Does he have a weaker arm than Crawford?
My recollection is that Panik was originally drafted as SS, but moved to 2B bcuz his arm deemed not strong enough for SS.
If that’s correct, then it seems Panik’s the future 2B. Craw’s SS.

———————–

re: SP.
Yah, I do think Schulman’s correct. (Thx Lefty, for the synopsis of his analysis).

They be tired arms.

Great point, worth noting: this current team, minus injured Pagan, is basically the same team that won it all in 2012. Yah, against the mighty, formidable Reds & Tigers. It was David vs Goliath, really. (and remember how we all felt after getting dusted those 1st 2 games of NLDS? well, r guys, r pitchers, r D, r timely hitting beat a better team, twice.)

Do you really want to blow up the team? Nah. Just improve it in LF and overall depth…so as to avoid using b/u guys as everyday guys.

———————–

re: LOOGY’s.
For those who want to trade Lopie, who else out there is major-league ready, playoff-tested and equivalent to Javier? Dunno ’bout you, but sure floats my boat to watch him get an out w/ bases loaded, late in the game, and watch his strut. He’s not a guy to use w/ an 8+ run lead, but great w/ a 1-run lead and the game on the line.

———————–

well, bottom line is…i’m still here, rootin for r guys, no matter what.
at least i’d like to see them play to their capabilities for the rest of the season, cuz they’re fun to watch.

over and out

E-B

p.s. does anyone have the FIP’s of all FA starting pitchers, avail at end of this year?

prima facie

Sorry, Alex, for being too dogmatic and “know-it-all”. I should have said “may” instead of “will” be made. And instead of many within the org. I should have said some. I should be more precise with my choice of words, but am oftentimes careless.

I wasn’t saying you’re wrong — I’m sure you know people that I don’t. Just pointing out –because the discussion was heating up — that I’ve never heard this from anyone inside the organization. In fact, this spring Panik told me he would move to second eventually. — Alex

===

I’ve heard from highly placed sources that Jean Machi will be traded for Mike Trout.