Re: [Stellarium-pubdevel] Oculus Rift support

Am 2014-09-02 um 03:59 schrieb Georg Zotti:
> Does the Oculus Rift use something else than perspective (i.e. standard
> OpenGL) projection?
Of course it does, or does [1] look like normal perspective projection
to you? You have to keep the lens distortion in mind. Moreover have you
had a look at the projection code of stellarium? It definitely doesn't
use standard OpenGL projection, how could it?
I didn't have enough time during the short period I had access to the
Rift to look into both mathematical backgrounds - Rift and stellarium
projection.
Regards,
Jörg
> There is likely no need for parallax support (differences in Left/Right
> eye based on object distance, which is "infinite" in our case - you would
> not perceive perspective parallax even for cases like "Ganymed transit
> over the Great Red Spot" or such, in nature), so does feeding the same
> image in perspective projection into both eyes, with some fixed fov
> ("natural" eyes have no magnification either ;-), not suffice?
>
> G.
>
> On Di, 2.09.2014, 07:54, Jörg Müller wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> seems like there's a lot of interest about this, I just got a mail on
>> Friday with the same question, this was my reply:
>>
>>> When the first dev kit came out, I did a very rough implementation
>>> for stellarium, which would have needed a lot more fine tuning.
>>>
>>> One of the biggest problems is to get it working with how projection
>>> works in stellarium. It has quite a few modes, but none of them really
>>> works with the Rift.
>>>
>>> Another problem is that it looks nice as long as you don't use
>>> magnification. If you do that you soon realize that the sensors are
>>> not accurate enough for higher magnifications and also you can't
>>> really hold your head still enough.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately I only borrowed a Rift for a limited time period, so I
>>> didn't even start the projection mode as it would have taken too long.
>>>
>>> I don't know if I still have the code, as I'm currently not at home,
>>> but it's pretty much useless now as the whole rendering system of
>>> stellarium changed meanwhile, and so did the Rift SDK probably.
>> Regards,
>> Jörg
>>
>> On 2014-09-01 at 09:27 Mike Sabatino wrote:
>>> Hi, has there been any movement on Oculus Rift support? There was a
>>> thread from this time last year regarding a conversion but nothing
>>> since. Thanks-
>>> Mike
>>>
>
>
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Hi,
seems like there's a lot of interest about this, I just got a mail on
Friday with the same question, this was my reply:
> When the first dev kit came out, I did a very rough implementation
> for stellarium, which would have needed a lot more fine tuning.
>
> One of the biggest problems is to get it working with how projection
> works in stellarium. It has quite a few modes, but none of them really
> works with the Rift.
>
> Another problem is that it looks nice as long as you don't use
> magnification. If you do that you soon realize that the sensors are
> not accurate enough for higher magnifications and also you can't
> really hold your head still enough.
>
> Unfortunately I only borrowed a Rift for a limited time period, so I
> didn't even start the projection mode as it would have taken too long.
>
> I don't know if I still have the code, as I'm currently not at home,
> but it's pretty much useless now as the whole rendering system of
> stellarium changed meanwhile, and so did the Rift SDK probably.
Regards,
Jörg
On 2014-09-01 at 09:27 Mike Sabatino wrote:
> Hi, has there been any movement on Oculus Rift support? There was a
> thread from this time last year regarding a conversion but nothing
> since. Thanks-
> Mike
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Slashdot TV.
> Video for Nerds. Stuff that matters.
> http://tv.slashdot.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stellarium-pubdevel mailing list
> Stellarium-pubdevel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stellarium-pubdevel

Does the Oculus Rift use something else than perspective (i.e. standard
OpenGL) projection?
There is likely no need for parallax support (differences in Left/Right
eye based on object distance, which is "infinite" in our case - you would
not perceive perspective parallax even for cases like "Ganymed transit
over the Great Red Spot" or such, in nature), so does feeding the same
image in perspective projection into both eyes, with some fixed fov
("natural" eyes have no magnification either ;-), not suffice?
G.
On Di, 2.09.2014, 07:54, Jörg Müller wrote:
> Hi,
>
> seems like there's a lot of interest about this, I just got a mail on
> Friday with the same question, this was my reply:
>
>> When the first dev kit came out, I did a very rough implementation
>> for stellarium, which would have needed a lot more fine tuning.
>>
>> One of the biggest problems is to get it working with how projection
>> works in stellarium. It has quite a few modes, but none of them really
>> works with the Rift.
>>
>> Another problem is that it looks nice as long as you don't use
>> magnification. If you do that you soon realize that the sensors are
>> not accurate enough for higher magnifications and also you can't
>> really hold your head still enough.
>>
>> Unfortunately I only borrowed a Rift for a limited time period, so I
>> didn't even start the projection mode as it would have taken too long.
>>
>> I don't know if I still have the code, as I'm currently not at home,
>> but it's pretty much useless now as the whole rendering system of
>> stellarium changed meanwhile, and so did the Rift SDK probably.
>
> Regards,
> Jörg
>
> On 2014-09-01 at 09:27 Mike Sabatino wrote:
>> Hi, has there been any movement on Oculus Rift support? There was a
>> thread from this time last year regarding a conversion but nothing
>> since. Thanks-
>> Mike
>>

Am 2014-09-02 um 03:59 schrieb Georg Zotti:
> Does the Oculus Rift use something else than perspective (i.e. standard
> OpenGL) projection?
Of course it does, or does [1] look like normal perspective projection
to you? You have to keep the lens distortion in mind. Moreover have you
had a look at the projection code of stellarium? It definitely doesn't
use standard OpenGL projection, how could it?
I didn't have enough time during the short period I had access to the
Rift to look into both mathematical backgrounds - Rift and stellarium
projection.
Regards,
Jörg
> There is likely no need for parallax support (differences in Left/Right
> eye based on object distance, which is "infinite" in our case - you would
> not perceive perspective parallax even for cases like "Ganymed transit
> over the Great Red Spot" or such, in nature), so does feeding the same
> image in perspective projection into both eyes, with some fixed fov
> ("natural" eyes have no magnification either ;-), not suffice?
>
> G.
>
> On Di, 2.09.2014, 07:54, Jörg Müller wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> seems like there's a lot of interest about this, I just got a mail on
>> Friday with the same question, this was my reply:
>>
>>> When the first dev kit came out, I did a very rough implementation
>>> for stellarium, which would have needed a lot more fine tuning.
>>>
>>> One of the biggest problems is to get it working with how projection
>>> works in stellarium. It has quite a few modes, but none of them really
>>> works with the Rift.
>>>
>>> Another problem is that it looks nice as long as you don't use
>>> magnification. If you do that you soon realize that the sensors are
>>> not accurate enough for higher magnifications and also you can't
>>> really hold your head still enough.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately I only borrowed a Rift for a limited time period, so I
>>> didn't even start the projection mode as it would have taken too long.
>>>
>>> I don't know if I still have the code, as I'm currently not at home,
>>> but it's pretty much useless now as the whole rendering system of
>>> stellarium changed meanwhile, and so did the Rift SDK probably.
>> Regards,
>> Jörg
>>
>> On 2014-09-01 at 09:27 Mike Sabatino wrote:
>>> Hi, has there been any movement on Oculus Rift support? There was a
>>> thread from this time last year regarding a conversion but nothing
>>> since. Thanks-
>>> Mike
>>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Slashdot TV.
> Video for Nerds. Stuff that matters.
> http://tv.slashdot.org/
> _______________________________________________
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> Stellarium-pubdevel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stellarium-pubdevel

HI!
Apparently [1] was lost. I don't know how the distortion looks like, just
remember having seen some rounded corners (stencil mask?).
Of course I am aware that Stellarium has other projections as well. For
Scenery3d my colleagues rendered OpenGL perspective into framebuffer
objects which were then reprojected with painter.drawSphericalTriangles().
A similar trick might work if you find the transformation
perspective->oculus. Maybe there is an Oculus SDK that does this?
G.
On Di, 2.09.2014, 19:17, Jörg Müller wrote:
> Am 2014-09-02 um 03:59 schrieb Georg Zotti:
>> Does the Oculus Rift use something else than perspective (i.e. standard
>> OpenGL) projection?
>
> Of course it does, or does [1] look like normal perspective projection
> to you? You have to keep the lens distortion in mind. Moreover have you
> had a look at the projection code of stellarium? It definitely doesn't
> use standard OpenGL projection, how could it?
>
> I didn't have enough time during the short period I had access to the
> Rift to look into both mathematical backgrounds - Rift and stellarium
> projection.
>
> Regards,
> Jörg
>
>> There is likely no need for parallax support (differences in Left/Right
>> eye based on object distance, which is "infinite" in our case - you
>> would
>> not perceive perspective parallax even for cases like "Ganymed transit
>> over the Great Red Spot" or such, in nature), so does feeding the same
>> image in perspective projection into both eyes, with some fixed fov
>> ("natural" eyes have no magnification either ;-), not suffice?
>>
>> G.
>>
>> On Di, 2.09.2014, 07:54, Jörg Müller wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> seems like there's a lot of interest about this, I just got a mail on
>>> Friday with the same question, this was my reply:
>>>
>>>> When the first dev kit came out, I did a very rough implementation
>>>> for stellarium, which would have needed a lot more fine tuning.
>>>>
>>>> One of the biggest problems is to get it working with how projection
>>>> works in stellarium. It has quite a few modes, but none of them really
>>>> works with the Rift.
>>>>
>>>> Another problem is that it looks nice as long as you don't use
>>>> magnification. If you do that you soon realize that the sensors are
>>>> not accurate enough for higher magnifications and also you can't
>>>> really hold your head still enough.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately I only borrowed a Rift for a limited time period, so I
>>>> didn't even start the projection mode as it would have taken too long.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if I still have the code, as I'm currently not at home,
>>>> but it's pretty much useless now as the whole rendering system of
>>>> stellarium changed meanwhile, and so did the Rift SDK probably.
>>> Regards,
>>> Jörg
>>>
>>> On 2014-09-01 at 09:27 Mike Sabatino wrote:
>>>> Hi, has there been any movement on Oculus Rift support? There was a
>>>> thread from this time last year regarding a conversion but nothing
>>>> since. Thanks-
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>

Well they say that real binocular telescopes indeed give a much more
plastic impression of the objects in view, even though they are
"infinitely" far away. I haven't tried it myself, though.
Regards
Christoph
Am 02.09.2014 10:59, schrieb Georg Zotti:
> Does the Oculus Rift use something else than perspective (i.e. standard
> OpenGL) projection?
> There is likely no need for parallax support (differences in Left/Right
> eye based on object distance, which is "infinite" in our case - you would
> not perceive perspective parallax even for cases like "Ganymed transit
> over the Great Red Spot" or such, in nature), so does feeding the same
> image in perspective projection into both eyes, with some fixed fov
> ("natural" eyes have no magnification either ;-), not suffice?
>
> G.
>
> On Di, 2.09.2014, 07:54, Jörg Müller wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> seems like there's a lot of interest about this, I just got a mail on
>> Friday with the same question, this was my reply:
>>
>>> When the first dev kit came out, I did a very rough implementation
>>> for stellarium, which would have needed a lot more fine tuning.
>>>
>>> One of the biggest problems is to get it working with how projection
>>> works in stellarium. It has quite a few modes, but none of them really
>>> works with the Rift.
>>>
>>> Another problem is that it looks nice as long as you don't use
>>> magnification. If you do that you soon realize that the sensors are
>>> not accurate enough for higher magnifications and also you can't
>>> really hold your head still enough.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately I only borrowed a Rift for a limited time period, so I
>>> didn't even start the projection mode as it would have taken too long.
>>>
>>> I don't know if I still have the code, as I'm currently not at home,
>>> but it's pretty much useless now as the whole rendering system of
>>> stellarium changed meanwhile, and so did the Rift SDK probably.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jörg
>>
>> On 2014-09-01 at 09:27 Mike Sabatino wrote:
>>> Hi, has there been any movement on Oculus Rift support? There was a
>>> thread from this time last year regarding a conversion but nothing
>>> since. Thanks-
>>> Mike
>>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Slashdot TV.
> Video for Nerds. Stuff that matters.
> http://tv.slashdot.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Stellarium-pubdevel mailing list
> Stellarium-pubdevel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stellarium-pubdevel
>

Yes, they say so. The same should then apply by feeding the same image
into both eyes of an OR - It will look somewhat plastic just by its
binocularity.
G.
On Di, 2.09.2014, 11:49, Christoph Redecker wrote:
> Well they say that real binocular telescopes indeed give a much more
> plastic impression of the objects in view, even though they are
> "infinitely" far away. I haven't tried it myself, though.
>
> Regards
>
> Christoph
>
> Am 02.09.2014 10:59, schrieb Georg Zotti:
>> Does the Oculus Rift use something else than perspective (i.e. standard
>> OpenGL) projection?
>> There is likely no need for parallax support (differences in Left/Right
>> eye based on object distance, which is "infinite" in our case - you
>> would
>> not perceive perspective parallax even for cases like "Ganymed transit
>> over the Great Red Spot" or such, in nature), so does feeding the same
>> image in perspective projection into both eyes, with some fixed fov
>> ("natural" eyes have no magnification either ;-), not suffice?
>>
>> G.
>>
>> On Di, 2.09.2014, 07:54, Jörg Müller wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> seems like there's a lot of interest about this, I just got a mail on
>>> Friday with the same question, this was my reply:
>>>
>>>> When the first dev kit came out, I did a very rough implementation
>>>> for stellarium, which would have needed a lot more fine tuning.
>>>>
>>>> One of the biggest problems is to get it working with how projection
>>>> works in stellarium. It has quite a few modes, but none of them really
>>>> works with the Rift.
>>>>
>>>> Another problem is that it looks nice as long as you don't use
>>>> magnification. If you do that you soon realize that the sensors are
>>>> not accurate enough for higher magnifications and also you can't
>>>> really hold your head still enough.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately I only borrowed a Rift for a limited time period, so I
>>>> didn't even start the projection mode as it would have taken too long.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if I still have the code, as I'm currently not at home,
>>>> but it's pretty much useless now as the whole rendering system of
>>>> stellarium changed meanwhile, and so did the Rift SDK probably.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jörg
>>>
>>> On 2014-09-01 at 09:27 Mike Sabatino wrote:
>>>> Hi, has there been any movement on Oculus Rift support? There was a
>>>> thread from this time last year regarding a conversion but nothing
>>>> since. Thanks-
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>
>

Hi,
I'm sorry, you should find it in [1] this time. It's easy to see that
it's not simply a stencil mask or similar. Also it would not make sense
to render into a framebuffer and then apply the distortion as this is an
unnecessary loss of quality, instead the math should be done right and a
real Oculus Rift projection should be implemented. There is an Oculus
SDK, it's however not GPL compatible and thus fails to be useful for
stellarium.
Regards,
Jörg
[1]
https://xqpkia.dm1.livefilestore.com/y2pnT7msWaZ1TZdaJtxTaG6ZKFzROy5Gc68qfBAooKQaspIa22vzT4oQE7phONHUL-hSSHy5bTONx5aMp6pkL8IQHz86VW3TIea10ECc4Kz4DY/01-TSC-1080.png
Am 2014-09-02 um 16:11 schrieb Georg Zotti:
> HI!
>
> Apparently [1] was lost. I don't know how the distortion looks like, just
> remember having seen some rounded corners (stencil mask?).
> Of course I am aware that Stellarium has other projections as well. For
> Scenery3d my colleagues rendered OpenGL perspective into framebuffer
> objects which were then reprojected with painter.drawSphericalTriangles().
> A similar trick might work if you find the transformation
> perspective->oculus. Maybe there is an Oculus SDK that does this?
>
> G.
>
> On Di, 2.09.2014, 19:17, Jörg Müller wrote:
>> Am 2014-09-02 um 03:59 schrieb Georg Zotti:
>>> Does the Oculus Rift use something else than perspective (i.e. standard
>>> OpenGL) projection?
>> Of course it does, or does [1] look like normal perspective projection
>> to you? You have to keep the lens distortion in mind. Moreover have you
>> had a look at the projection code of stellarium? It definitely doesn't
>> use standard OpenGL projection, how could it?
>>
>> I didn't have enough time during the short period I had access to the
>> Rift to look into both mathematical backgrounds - Rift and stellarium
>> projection.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jörg
>>
>>> There is likely no need for parallax support (differences in Left/Right
>>> eye based on object distance, which is "infinite" in our case - you
>>> would
>>> not perceive perspective parallax even for cases like "Ganymed transit
>>> over the Great Red Spot" or such, in nature), so does feeding the same
>>> image in perspective projection into both eyes, with some fixed fov
>>> ("natural" eyes have no magnification either ;-), not suffice?
>>>
>>> G.
>>>
>>> On Di, 2.09.2014, 07:54, Jörg Müller wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> seems like there's a lot of interest about this, I just got a mail on
>>>> Friday with the same question, this was my reply:
>>>>
>>>>> When the first dev kit came out, I did a very rough implementation
>>>>> for stellarium, which would have needed a lot more fine tuning.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the biggest problems is to get it working with how projection
>>>>> works in stellarium. It has quite a few modes, but none of them really
>>>>> works with the Rift.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another problem is that it looks nice as long as you don't use
>>>>> magnification. If you do that you soon realize that the sensors are
>>>>> not accurate enough for higher magnifications and also you can't
>>>>> really hold your head still enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately I only borrowed a Rift for a limited time period, so I
>>>>> didn't even start the projection mode as it would have taken too long.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if I still have the code, as I'm currently not at home,
>>>>> but it's pretty much useless now as the whole rendering system of
>>>>> stellarium changed meanwhile, and so did the Rift SDK probably.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Jörg
>>>>
>>>> On 2014-09-01 at 09:27 Mike Sabatino wrote:
>>>>> Hi, has there been any movement on Oculus Rift support? There was a
>>>>> thread from this time last year regarding a conversion but nothing
>>>>> since. Thanks-
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Slashdot TV.
> Video for Nerds. Stuff that matters.
> http://tv.slashdot.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Stellarium-pubdevel mailing list
> Stellarium-pubdevel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stellarium-pubdevel

Ah, I see. It's also amazing how they apparently precompute a correction
for chromatic aberration...
Sure, doing it with a proper projection is the cleanest solution. The
framebuffer trick was just the easiest solution we saw when we needed
Z-Buffering for the foreground (which is not required here).
Whichever way, finished contributions welcome, I have no time for it.
Kind regards,
Georg
On Di, 2.09.2014, 23:42, Jörg Müller wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm sorry, you should find it in [1] this time. It's easy to see that
> it's not simply a stencil mask or similar. Also it would not make sense
> to render into a framebuffer and then apply the distortion as this is an
> unnecessary loss of quality, instead the math should be done right and a
> real Oculus Rift projection should be implemented. There is an Oculus
> SDK, it's however not GPL compatible and thus fails to be useful for
> stellarium.
>
> Regards,
> Jörg
>
> [1]
> https://xqpkia.dm1.livefilestore.com/y2pnT7msWaZ1TZdaJtxTaG6ZKFzROy5Gc68qfBAooKQaspIa22vzT4oQE7phONHUL-hSSHy5bTONx5aMp6pkL8IQHz86VW3TIea10ECc4Kz4DY/01-TSC-1080.png
>
> Am 2014-09-02 um 16:11 schrieb Georg Zotti:
>> HI!
>>
>> Apparently [1] was lost. I don't know how the distortion looks like,
>> just
>> remember having seen some rounded corners (stencil mask?).
>> Of course I am aware that Stellarium has other projections as well. For
>> Scenery3d my colleagues rendered OpenGL perspective into framebuffer
>> objects which were then reprojected with
>> painter.drawSphericalTriangles().
>> A similar trick might work if you find the transformation
>> perspective->oculus. Maybe there is an Oculus SDK that does this?
>>
>> G.
>>
>> On Di, 2.09.2014, 19:17, Jörg Müller wrote:
>>> Am 2014-09-02 um 03:59 schrieb Georg Zotti:
>>>> Does the Oculus Rift use something else than perspective (i.e.
>>>> standard
>>>> OpenGL) projection?
>>> Of course it does, or does [1] look like normal perspective projection
>>> to you? You have to keep the lens distortion in mind. Moreover have you
>>> had a look at the projection code of stellarium? It definitely doesn't
>>> use standard OpenGL projection, how could it?
>>>
>>> I didn't have enough time during the short period I had access to the
>>> Rift to look into both mathematical backgrounds - Rift and stellarium
>>> projection.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jörg
>>>
>>>> There is likely no need for parallax support (differences in
>>>> Left/Right
>>>> eye based on object distance, which is "infinite" in our case - you
>>>> would
>>>> not perceive perspective parallax even for cases like "Ganymed transit
>>>> over the Great Red Spot" or such, in nature), so does feeding the same
>>>> image in perspective projection into both eyes, with some fixed fov
>>>> ("natural" eyes have no magnification either ;-), not suffice?
>>>>
>>>> G.
>>>>
>>>> On Di, 2.09.2014, 07:54, Jörg Müller wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> seems like there's a lot of interest about this, I just got a mail on
>>>>> Friday with the same question, this was my reply:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When the first dev kit came out, I did a very rough implementation
>>>>>> for stellarium, which would have needed a lot more fine tuning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the biggest problems is to get it working with how projection
>>>>>> works in stellarium. It has quite a few modes, but none of them
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> works with the Rift.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another problem is that it looks nice as long as you don't use
>>>>>> magnification. If you do that you soon realize that the sensors are
>>>>>> not accurate enough for higher magnifications and also you can't
>>>>>> really hold your head still enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately I only borrowed a Rift for a limited time period, so I
>>>>>> didn't even start the projection mode as it would have taken too
>>>>>> long.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know if I still have the code, as I'm currently not at home,
>>>>>> but it's pretty much useless now as the whole rendering system of
>>>>>> stellarium changed meanwhile, and so did the Rift SDK probably.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Jörg
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2014-09-01 at 09:27 Mike Sabatino wrote:
>>>>>> Hi, has there been any movement on Oculus Rift support? There was a
>>>>>> thread from this time last year regarding a conversion but nothing
>>>>>> since. Thanks-
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>