I disagree. Dorian's bicep was his only flaw (maybe stomach). Nobody onstage competing with Yates in his career matched his conditioning. Ray looked great that year, but not good enough to knock him out.

Poor calves and just not big enough to be honest. As much as I loved Ray and respect him when you have guys, or a guy who outweighs him by 50-70lbs and is in superior condition, you can't really give him the win.
I would have LOVED to have seen a 212lb division when Ray was competing. I would guarantee he would be a 10+ time winner.....a mark that probably wouldn't be beaten. Yes, a lot of "what if's but top 5 in all those years in the open.......he'd have cleaned house.

I disagree. Dorian's bicep was his only flaw (maybe stomach). Nobody onstage competing with Yates in his career matched his conditioning. Ray looked great that year, but not good enough to knock him out.

And his tricep.

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"Looking up at goals once only found in my dreams can only make me think of those who looked down upon those dreams. The only time you should ever look down upon another person, is when you are extending a hand to lift them up." - kai greene

Yeah, Nasser looks exceptional. Shawn Ray looks great too. Can't say same for Dorian.
And for God's sake .. of course Yates should not have won in 1997. His gut was bigger than his chest, he was disproportional, outconditioned by Ray & Nasser and was with a half arm and a missing arm. He was all back & calves. Nasser won that ...

Poor calves and just not big enough to be honest. As much as I loved Ray and respect him when you have guys, or a guy who outweighs him by 50-70lbs and is in superior condition, you can't really give him the win.
I would have LOVED to have seen a 212lb division when Ray was competing. I would guarantee he would be a 10+ time winner.....a mark that probably wouldn't be beaten. Yes, a lot of "what if's but top 5 in all those years in the open.......he'd have cleaned house.

This IS bodyBUILDING......
Guys like you would applaud one boring mens physique competition. You mean to tell me a ripped to shreds Coleman and ripped to shreds Dexter you would go with Dexter???

this i can agree with.

Kai Greene, Phil Heath, Cedric McMillan, Lionel Beyeke, Shawn Rhoden

"Looking up at goals once only found in my dreams can only make me think of those who looked down upon those dreams. The only time you should ever look down upon another person, is when you are extending a hand to lift them up." - kai greene

take the picture address in a new tab and change the last number, and you should be able to flip through the whole album from 1-20 something

Originally Posted by trulyhuge1

This IS bodyBUILDING......
Guys like you would applaud one boring mens physique competition. You mean to tell me a ripped to shreds Coleman and ripped to shreds Dexter you would go with Dexter???

im pretty sure hes talking about shawn and dorian

Shawn in the 212s is a waste for a physique that could place 2nd in the open, a joke. Shawn was massive for a guy with his frame. The 50 pound difference is because of their height and different sized frames. Skeletonbuilding logic i assume

Yeah, Nasser looks exceptional. Shawn Ray looks great too. Can't say same for Dorian.
And for God's sake .. of course Yates should not have won in 1997. His gut was bigger than his chest, he was disproportional, outconditioned by Ray & Nasser and was with a half arm and a missing arm. He was all back & calves. Nasser won that ...

He was far from out conditioned by Nasser, you can't be serious. Look at pics of Nasser from 97, watch movies and remove your I hate Dorian goggles because you can clearly see Dorian out conditioned Nasser. Look at Nasser's glutes, lower back, delts and chest than look at Dorian and if you still seriously think Nasser out conditioned Dorian than you don't have a very good eye. Shawn was probably on par with Dorian's conditioning and I'm willing to admit maybe even better conditioned but he was too small, and he looked really flat as a result. Side on Shawn looked to lack a lot of thickness as well.

Aside from conditioning and addressing your other comments- Dorian's gut looks bad in some pictures but there's a lot of pictures where it doesn't and most importantly it is very well hidden when posing which is what is used to compare physiques. His arm only really affected one pose and the rest of his physique was still light years ahead of the rest.

Go buy the 97 DVD or look it up or something and watch it, because every single anti-Dorian argument I see uses the same pictures where Dorian isn't striking a pose, is by himself or is angled differently to the others. There are pictures out there like that of nearly every bodybuilder but a real argument can only be formulated based on footage and photos from front on during the comparisons. Which if you spend the time looking for you will notice Dorian is clearly better than the other bodybuilders on stage, Kevin and Shawn may be more appealing to look at, and maybe even Nasser depending on your taste but if you break the physiques down from a bodybuilding standpoint Dorian wins. And if you wanted Dorian to lose because his physique wasn't as pretty as the others than the judging would be overly subjective and make it impossible to fairly pick a winner (if it isn't already controversial enough).

I guess there'll be a whole new Dorian argument coming up in the near future again anyway, and it seems a lot of people on this forum dislike Dorian and are far from subjective when evaluating his physique so I feel like trying to present an argument is useless anyway.

His arm only really affected one pose and the rest of his physique was still light years ahead of the rest.

Go buy the 97 DVD or look it up or something and watch it, because every single anti-Dorian argument I see uses the same pictures where Dorian isn't striking a pose, is by himself or is angled differently to the others. There are pictures out there like that of nearly every bodybuilder but a real argument can only be formulated based on footage and photos from front on during the comparisons. Which if you spend the time looking for you will notice Dorian is clearly better than the other bodybuilders on stage, Kevin and Shawn may be more appealing to look at, and maybe even Nasser depending on your taste but if you break the physiques down from a bodybuilding standpoint Dorian wins. And if you wanted Dorian to lose because his physique wasn't as pretty as the others than the judging would be overly subjective and make it impossible to fairly pick a winner (if it isn't already controversial enough).

I guess there'll be a whole new Dorian argument coming up in the near future again anyway, and it seems a lot of people on this forum dislike Dorian and are far from subjective when evaluating his physique so I feel like trying to present an argument is useless anyway.

For starters i think that dorian wasn't light years ahead of the competition. He was usually better (not light years) up until 97. The argument of more appealing can honestly only be used against idiots who think aesthetics are what bodybuilding is all about.

If you have those pictures/footage that make Dorian the obvious winner i suggest you post them because otherwise people will have to believe what they see, and imo, out of all comparisons i saw of 97 i think nasser was the obvious winner. This is the impression i have out of all i saw to this day. Feel free to present new "evidences" so i can change my mind.

Present the argument to me, im far from subjective and im always willing to learn.

This IS bodyBUILDING......
Guys like you would applaud one boring mens physique competition. You mean to tell me a ripped to shreds Coleman and ripped to shreds Dexter you would go with Dexter???

Terrible argument. What about a ripped to shreds Ruhl vs Dexter? Why not just weigh everyone who is under a certain bf% and chose a Mr. O like that? The point is it's not just black and white. There are compromises you have to make as a judge. In my opinion, yes Dorian was bigger but he was also alot taller. Their leg size was almost the same while Shawn's midsection was ALOT tighter and smaller. And defined. Shawn's proportions when you also factor in his shoulder width was AMAZING.

And lol @ calling out Shawn's calves as a flaw. His calves were very proportioned to his thighs while Dorians calves were too big for Dorian's thighs...making that a flaw of Dorian's. For his height, Shawn had PLENTY size, immaculate conditioning, and symmetry that's perhaps closest to perfection than anything seen on an Olympia stage. Absolutely nothing looks off and I'm sure most agree he should have beat Dorian at least once.

For starters i think that dorian wasn't light years ahead of the competition. He was usually better (not light years) up until 97. The argument of more appealing can honestly only be used against idiots who think aesthetics are what bodybuilding is all about.

If you have those pictures/footage that make Dorian the obvious winner i suggest you post them because otherwise people will have to believe what they see, and imo, out of all comparisons i saw of 97 i think nasser was the obvious winner. This is the impression i have out of all i saw to this day. Feel free to present new "evidences" so i can change my mind.

Present the argument to me, im far from subjective and im always willing to learn.

Honestly, Shawn should have placed higher than Nasser in my opinion. I posted a short YouTube clip already, it's pretty hard to find footage from 97 but I saw the video a while ago and Dorian looks like he's ahead of the pack.

Dorian looks better than Nasser in these shots, granite like, better conditioning, better flow, different shape but just as big.

Do I really need to go into detail regarding the back poses? Pics speak for themselves.

Not really as pleasing to the eye as Shawn sure, but he's out massing him seriously. Then consider the front relaxed for Dorian was terrible in 97 but that in actual poses these flaws are hidden well then you understand how Dorian's mass combined with the other great things about his physique trumps Shawn, regardless of how "pretty" Shawn's physique looks.

Thickness through the torso, Dorian has it, Nasser too, but not so much. This quality is seriously underrated but vital to all of the great physiques.

Dorian beating Shawn and Nasser in this pose, as well as everyone else with the exception of Levrone (who looks freakin' awesome!)

I don't wanna keep going on, it's pretty time consuming going through and getting pictures and stuff haha, I give people who spend this much time posting pictures much more credit now!

But, I'll just leave this here, not relevant to the argument but a pretty damn awesome pic regardless.

"...that's the great virtue of the free market, of the private market. It enables people...who hate one another...who don't speak the same language...who would fight one another if they had the chance, to cooperate economically. We were able to deal with China when China was a communist state. Even though we thought that that was a terrible arrangement, we could still cooperate. And that's what markets enable people to do. They bring freedom with them."
- Milton Friedman

Aus you left out the dominating fdb and front relaxed nasser had over dorian. Dorian doesn't have better flow than nasser in 97. Nasser wins the 3/4 quarter turns, fdb, fls, side chest, and ab/thigh. He only loses the side tri because he normally goofs when it comes to posing the side poses, but nasser's side chest is better there. Dorian is barely making a better case in that pose due to his bloated midsection. Overall Nasser wins more poses than he loses. Dominating the most muscular for the fans.

The front relaxed is a joke. Dorian's arms, chest and quad separation were very off, and his midsection was bigger from all the internal bleeding he had that year. Its not about shawn looking prettier, its looking better.

Aus you left out the dominating fdb and front relaxed nasser had over dorian. Dorian doesn't have better flow than nasser in 97. Nasser wins the 3/4 quarter turns, fdb, fls, side chest, and ab/thigh. He only loses the side tri because he normally goofs when it comes to posing the side poses, but nasser's side chest is better there. Dorian is barely making a better case in that pose due to his bloated midsection. Overall Nasser wins more poses than he loses. Dominating the most muscular for the fans.

The front relaxed is a joke. Dorian's arms, chest and quad separation were very off, and his midsection was bigger from all the internal bleeding he had that year. Its not about shawn looking prettier, its looking better.

First, I wasn't saying Dorian won the front relaxed, I was using that as an example of the size difference between him and Shawn. Shawn is winning that pose because there are so many other elements that make a good bodybuilder, but that is one pose among many which is why one pose will never be enough to judge a contest on.

Look, Nasser beats Dorian in FDB and Front Relaxed sure, but he doesn't win in other poses and he sure as hell is miles behind conditioning wise, if he was in condition I'd be willing to say that he could have possibly beat Dorian in 97.

I'll outline why I believe Dorian is winning the poses I presented:Ab and Thigh- Harder, so much harder and just as big. Look at Dorian's thighs then Nasser's, look at Dorian's midsection than Nasser's and tell me honestly, from your heart that you think Nasser is just as conditioned. Dorian's major flaws in 97, his arms and his waist are well hidden in this pose. Dorian's pecs look heaps better than Nasser's in this pose. So there's nothing I can really pick out on Dorian in this pose as to why he loses, yet when I break down the pose for Nasser I pick out his conditioning, his chest and his thighs as being behind Dorian's.Side Chest- Dorian looks just as big, but again he is more conditioned. Look at Nasser's delt and chest area, to me it looks really puffy and soft when compared to Dorian. His legs also look softer. IMO Dorian is winning this pose, it flows much better on him and he is much more refined.Side Tricep- Almost exactly the same points as side chest, plus Dorian strikes the pose much better than Nasser, which must count for something, posing is part of bodybuilding after all. But what jumps out at me in this pose is the difference in conditioning when you compare Nasser's delts and triceps with Dorian's. Dorian's holding his leg differently but again, TO ME, there is night and day between the two competitors conditioning.Front Lat Spread- Dorian always looks great in this pose. Look at Nasser's abs, you can clearly see they are covered by a layer of fat/water, whereas Dorian's, whilst not having the shape of Nasser's abs are still much leaner. Dorian's lats, well, enough said there. Yates' chest seems much leaner than Nasser's and whilst I'm prepared to admit Nasser's thighs have superior shape and insertions, they are not as conditioned.Back Poses: Nasser is being outclassed completely. Size, shape, conditioning all go to Dorian. Look at Nasser's glutes than look at Dorian's. Lower back, upper back, hamstrings. Just look at it all. Even the most staunch of all Dorian haters/Nasser lovers have to concede Dorian completely outclasses and OWNS Nasser in the back poses.

So, if we are saying Nasser is the next behind Dorian at 97 (even though I feel Shawn should have been ahead) I have it going.
Front Double Bi: Nasser
Front Lat Spread: Dorian
Ab and Thigh: Dorian
Side Tricep: Dorian
Side Chest: Dorian
Back Double Bi: Dorian
Rear Lat Spread: Dorian

And including relaxed poses.

Front Relaxed: Nasser
Side Relaxed: Dorian
Back Relaxed: Dorian

Dorian 8/10
Nasser 2/10

But looking at everything as it was, IMO, honestly, Dorian 1st, Shawn 2nd, Nasser 3rd. Regardless, these are my opinions so don't cut my head off for having them, I'm happy for you guys to have your own opinion but I just can't see what you guys see. In the end, there are people arguing for all different points of view so it (97 Olympia) isn't as clear cut as any of us see it/believe.

I dont agree on the side chest and fls(nasser poses differently, doesn't raise chest like dorian). It is close on the ab/thigh. whatever i suppose lol, you're opinion isnt bad. (Atleast not like getbig....) Nasser's back is too soft for me to care. Even if dorian is losing in prejudging, he was a rock at the finals. Id say shawn was the best at this show, but no comparisons to confirm it.

First, I wasn't saying Dorian won the front relaxed, I was using that as an example of the size difference between him and Shawn. Shawn is winning that pose because there are so many other elements that make a good bodybuilder, but that is one pose among many which is why one pose will never be enough to judge a contest on.

Look, Nasser beats Dorian in FDB and Front Relaxed sure, but he doesn't win in other poses and he sure as hell is miles behind conditioning wise, if he was in condition I'd be willing to say that he could have possibly beat Dorian in 97.

I'll outline why I believe Dorian is winning the poses I presented:Ab and Thigh- Harder, so much harder and just as big. Look at Dorian's thighs then Nasser's, look at Dorian's midsection than Nasser's and tell me honestly, from your heart that you think Nasser is just as conditioned. Dorian's major flaws in 97, his arms and his waist are well hidden in this pose. Dorian's pecs look heaps better than Nasser's in this pose. So there's nothing I can really pick out on Dorian in this pose as to why he loses, yet when I break down the pose for Nasser I pick out his conditioning, his chest and his thighs as being behind Dorian's.Side Chest- Dorian looks just as big, but again he is more conditioned. Look at Nasser's delt and chest area, to me it looks really puffy and soft when compared to Dorian. His legs also look softer. IMO Dorian is winning this pose, it flows much better on him and he is much more refined.Side Tricep- Almost exactly the same points as side chest, plus Dorian strikes the pose much better than Nasser, which must count for something, posing is part of bodybuilding after all. But what jumps out at me in this pose is the difference in conditioning when you compare Nasser's delts and triceps with Dorian's. Dorian's holding his leg differently but again, TO ME, there is night and day between the two competitors conditioning.Front Lat Spread- Dorian always looks great in this pose. Look at Nasser's abs, you can clearly see they are covered by a layer of fat/water, whereas Dorian's, whilst not having the shape of Nasser's abs are still much leaner. Dorian's lats, well, enough said there. Yates' chest seems much leaner than Nasser's and whilst I'm prepared to admit Nasser's thighs have superior shape and insertions, they are not as conditioned.Back Poses: Nasser is being outclassed completely. Size, shape, conditioning all go to Dorian. Look at Nasser's glutes than look at Dorian's. Lower back, upper back, hamstrings. Just look at it all. Even the most staunch of all Dorian haters/Nasser lovers have to concede Dorian completely outclasses and OWNS Nasser in the back poses.

So, if we are saying Nasser is the next behind Dorian at 97 (even though I feel Shawn should have been ahead) I have it going.
Front Double Bi: Nasser
Front Lat Spread: Dorian
Ab and Thigh: Dorian
Side Tricep: Dorian
Side Chest: Dorian
Back Double Bi: Dorian
Rear Lat Spread: Dorian

And including relaxed poses.

Front Relaxed: Nasser
Side Relaxed: Dorian
Back Relaxed: Dorian

Dorian 8/10
Nasser 2/10

But looking at everything as it was, IMO, honestly, Dorian 1st, Shawn 2nd, Nasser 3rd. Regardless, these are my opinions so don't cut my head off for having them, I'm happy for you guys to have your own opinion but I just can't see what you guys see. In the end, there are people arguing for all different points of view so it (97 Olympia) isn't as clear cut as any of us see it/believe.

Neo is that you??
So you basicly said that Dorian is more conditioned and poses better. But...When i look at pics i see this.
FDB : Nasser
FLS : Nasser
Side tri : equal, i never ever like Dorian's side tri in his late years, it flowed amazing in his early years, but in 1997 his gut sticks out more than his chest.
Side chest : Nasser
Back poses - Dorian ownage.
Ab & thigh - Tie, but i have Nasser a little better, he flows better, his chest/lats and his abs, maybe not as seperated quads as Dorian, but Yates's quads have natural bad shape and look bad -.-
Standing Relaxed , Nasser
Quarter turns - Nasser again
Most muscular - ....

Neo is that you??So you basicly said that Dorian is more conditioned and poses better. But...When i look at pics i see this.
FDB : Nasser
FLS : Nasser
Side tri : equal, i never ever like Dorian's side tri in his late years, it flowed amazing in his early years, but in 1997 his gut sticks out more than his chest.
Side chest : Nasser
Back poses - Dorian ownage.
Ab & thigh - Tie, but i have Nasser a little better, he flows better, his chest/lats and his abs, maybe not as seperated quads as Dorian, but Yates's quads have natural bad shape and look bad -.-
Standing Relaxed , Nasser
Quarter turns - Nasser again
Most muscular - ....

No, I presented more than just conditioning and posing as my evidence. Did you read my post? Especially what I said about Nasser's conditioning and how it affected his physique?

"Look, Nasser beats Dorian in FDB and Front Relaxed sure, but he doesn't win in other poses and he sure as hell is miles behind conditioning wise, if he was in condition I'd be willing to say that he could have possibly beat Dorian in 97."

Like I said, read through my post, I have outlined all the points why I feel Dorian beats Nasser. This is bodybuilding, everything I have said is relevant to how bodybuilding is judged- conditioning, posing, presentation, size, shape etc. The most complete package in regards to all the criteria wins. I feel that person in 97 was Dorian. You haven't given any reasons why Nasser beats Dorian in these poses, except his quads "look bad" and his "gut".

Nasser destroyed Dorian in the quarter turns, Dorian had zero arms, zero symmetry. Nasser's side chest is better, almost everyone agree with it, his chest is better than dorian's also look at the delts, arms..... Nasser's Legs look sharp from the side too.And his legs are better than Dorian's. Now lets talk about how Dorian.He had too many flaws ,including the gut, zero arms, zero symmetry, terrible proportions, fugly look and shape.

*Waiting patiently for people to claim without any solid arguments that even Levrone and Dillett from the 4th and 5th places should've place ahead of Dorian in 1997 and not only*

Even a solid argument is subjective.

Bench: 215x12 (17/12/2011) PR since torn RC

"Being the best in your circle is not enough; you have to think bigger to become a champion. Donít think like a small fish in a big pond or else when you get to the ocean youíll be eaten alive." - Fouad Abiad

"Being the best in your circle is not enough; you have to think bigger to become a champion. Donít think like a small fish in a big pond or else when you get to the ocean youíll be eaten alive." - Fouad Abiad

Nasser is for Dorian what Mentzer has been for Arnold: a counterargument because they remained with a bitter attitude and hate towards the IFBB = the underdog/black sheep/robbed guy in the mind of some fans. On the opposite side Vic has the mentality of a winner even after the 2007 Olympia, and despite the fact that he has endured more and worse events in his life than all the other guys combined, he still keeps moving on.