Pav, most recipes I've seen, this one included, tend to have a cooking period to them. Yet, when I read through the tomme section of French Cheeses, or Max McCalman's Mastering Cheese**, for example, tommes are characterized by being uncooked, among other things. Is this maybe just a cultural/translation thing - meaning, we're not talking high-temp cooking, as for gruyere family cheeses, just a 12ish degree hike over 1/2 hour or so.

Or, are tommes traditionally truly kept ("held") at a given temperature, 88-92ish, from coagulation through to proper consistency then drained - without any ramping up in temp?

EDIT: I think I might have found my own answer, and it was my first guess; in that same French Cheeses they talk about Tomme de Lullin as being an "uncooked" cheese: coming in and coagulating at 91F, then cut, stirred and heated to 98F, where it's held for 30 minutes. So, it's "cooked" in any parlance I'm familiar with, anyway.

It's true, the classic tradition of the tomme is to work quickly after coagulating, put the curds into molds and stack them, then let them ripen. I find this produces a softer style of tomme. But it varies with the tech and region. You can find some variation among makers. Overall, I think the decision to cook or not depends on the milk quality and the kind of aging you need. I am not sure on tomme des bauges; I have never seen it made firsthand. I believe that one is uncooked though.

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Thank you, Pav - about to go into a make but thought to change nothing - per the note on Tomme de Lullin above, they refer to it as "uncooked" but then talk about heating up from 91F to 98F; so I presumed this was just a translational error, and that all tommes typically get a ramp up.

So, if seeking this softer style, would you recommend just going to, say, 92-94F, and holding there, throughout?

Really depends on how well you can drive out the moisture and how you want to age it. temp itself does not change bacterial kinetics that much, but it does affect moisture and rate of whey loss in the curd. And with moisture differences, rate of maturation and surface aW changes, which in turn affects surface flora and final flavor through ripening.

tomme de lullin is cooked to 98F

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Looking for something of a softer pate, yet can stand up to 4 months of affinage; mould driven rind dynamics, some MVA and geo (13). Thought to just go in to 92F, then hold through 30 minutes post cut-healing, or until curd is holding together properly; then draining under whey and the usual. I should mention I'm using pasteurized, prematured milk with CaCl at 1/4 tsp/gallon.

I am changing using PLA in the make and morge, using a blend of my own, so to keep down the variables should probably keep with the previous regimes, which is as you've suggested, Pav, 88-100 over 30 minutes. But for the next makes, possibly - this notion of "uncooked" intrigues me.

That long affinage shift to a more thermo make (not temp, culture, basically like a reb) and salt pH 4.8-4.9. and slowly after 2 months start drying it out a bit. 85% RH, 45F. And do a slightly taller wheel than you would for a normal savoie tomme.

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OK, thanks, Pav. I actually maintain my cave at 85F, 55F as it is - again, seeking a mycodore-dominant cheese. I've thought to kick it up to 88 or 90%, but am deciding to stay the course, to see what happens.

All this said: all other things being equal, meaning same culture, same cut size, holding at 92F v. ramping up to 100F will increase retained moisture; this will tend to create a faster acid curve, yes? A softer pate? Higher Aw cheese?

A "better" milk, a raw milk (say, from some certain Ayrshire cows ), can deal with the higher retained moisture - just like it can handle a lower floc multiplier - better than the storebought; the storebought, one is almost necessarily cooking the curds?

Basically, in practical terms, what is the benefit of an uncooked v. the ramped up, cooked cheese?

In my experience, yes. Although if pasteurized store bought, can make a tolerable cheese.

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uncooked v. the ramped up, cooked cheese?

Degree of tech. It's not about benefit, more about difference. You can make cheese in the field with a bucket, no tools, freshly slaughtered lamb/kid that you share with shepherd friends for lunch retaining the abomasum for coagulant, and some basket or cloth to drain the cheese. and it turns out delicious without the need for fancy affinage. Or you can take it home, have a fire and more control, baby it a bit more, age it out and keep longer to survive the harsher months. Also turns out delicious. I've done both here on the farm, there's no real advantage to one or another. Makes for different cheese based on the cadence of the lifestyle.

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Thanks, Pav. I'll have to chew on these things for awhile, no pun intended. I'm back to trying to keep "tendencies" in mind - "all other things being equal, [X] seasonal variation in milk tends to yield [lower][higher] total solids and protein, so adjust accordingly" and so on.

I'm finding my acid curves are in general too sharp. I presume doing a pre-maturation of 0.2%, adding in the balance of the starter - in this case, an additional 1% b.e. - and doing it at 80F (when it takes considerable time to eek out those last 8 degrees F) can all add to an upfront lower pH than I might have expected, but still not sure why I'm getting 6.35 in the vat at drain, 5.04 terminal press pH after only 6.75 total hours under press, and that includes the first 3 flips. I use warming mats loosely wrapped around the mold during the press - perhaps a contributor?

Next time I'm going to do a prematuration at 0.2%, and only 0.78% in the vat, so the total is 0.98%; will add the batch starter at 85F or so; and otherwise watch my targets better. I can't recall anything from before, instructive in this way...in general for both my tommes and the rebs, would like a long, slow ripening and gentler acid curve generally. My memory agrees with Sailor's comment, slow and steady wins the race with these alpines. So any thoughts on this, much appreciated, guys.

Paul

ps: forgot to add, on the other hand, it occurs to me that with MA4001 and these low terminal pH's (this one at 5.04, the last, 4.96), and a good 4 gallons crammed into the tomme mold - Pav, I'm pretty close to your longer-aged potential, so will try, with these. Just want to do it all consciously, nothing by a happy serendipity. I've done lost my sea legs!

I am just using standard hard cheese hoops that are about 200mm in diameter. I have cut liners made out of cheese matting to fit inside them with a circle for each end. The hoops I have a slightly tapered and I think it would be better if they were straight as it makes the liners warp a bit. I'll try and get a pic up.

NVD

I love this idea, but trying it on my tomme/st. paulin mold, there's not enough play for the follower to be able to get inside the mold. It barely slides with thin cheesecloth. Do you have the specifics, NVD? Very cool idea!

I still haven't put a pic up have I! Here is a link to the hoop I use. Yes if the sides don't taper then the follower won't fit inside the hoop plus liner. You could have a slightly smaller follower made to fit I guess