They worked through the rest of the day and long into the night, moving the hull, fitting the engine, and fending off the zombies. The plan nearly fell apart when someone discovered that necklessone was actually a sanitation engineer who only made model ships in his spare time. But they’d gone this far, they might as well see it to the end.

He must have been a hell of modeler, because it worked. The ship wasn’t much to look at; the engine was almost literally held together with bailing wire, the 1st class amenities were practically non-existent (would you believe they didn’t have even one executive chef on board?), and trying to steer it was an “interesting” endeavor, but it did it’s job, and did it well, and that’s the important thing. On the upside, it was sparkling clean, and the engine produced a fresh lemon scent. Necklessone was just glad he hadn’t had to find a giant glass bottle.

----

Lacking a fresh food supply, the dead went into hibernation underneath the cult temple; waiting for the inevitable salvage party.

---

I do have to tell you, the trip to Parhoon was somewhat awkward, with them looking angrily at each other. Not as awkward as the dinner Han Solo and Princess Leia had with Darth Vader, but not too far off. There was that whole “murdering each other” thing hanging in the air.

Finally, one of the Germans took a deep breath of lemon scented air, and said “Damn it, why did you bomb the ship?! You ruined everything! This never would have happened in Germany! We are a country of law and order, and civilians don’t blow up liners whenever the mood strikes them!” The others were aghast, “Us blow up the ship?! Good god man! That was your lot that did that! We have no reason to kill ourselves!” but the agents said they were supposed to retrieve a diary and had no reason to blow up the ship either. They all argued about it, and eventually they determine what must have happened. The ship was blown up admetus the worm cultist in an attempt to kill wasabi and okaros. Everyone else was just caught up in the aftermath.

The realisation did much to patch things up, and they played “cards against humanity, victorian edition” the rest of the way back to Parhoon.

---

When they got back to the city, they were all hailed as heroes! Being gentleman, they all stuck to their bargain to let dead take the blame for everything. The dead, being occupied with slumber, made no objection. Awfully accommodating of them, I must say.

The HMS Red Hellhole was placed in a museum, and all the visitors were amazed at the spotless gleam and the fresh lemon scent of the place.

Necklessone, rekard, mem, and dom went to go get a good stiff drink. As for rave and furin, they went to the German embassy to report their successful mission. They had been assigned to kill the courier and retrieve the diary, and indeed, the courier was dead and the diary retrieved. No need to get into all the messy details.

Day 1 Hellheart wrote:So very preliminary wolf list, with the second half being reads I would never push in thread without greater detail so probably less than half are wolves:

Ryvvn

rekard OR Okaros

Wasabi or MEM

Ravebomb

ICB (if Ryvvn is a wolf)

(6-10 redacted, they were based on super-thin reads that I expected to be wrong, and they were)

I peg 4 out of the 5 wolves after Day 1, but Necklessone and DOM were hell-bent on policy voting me to death so my game-solving didn't matter!

Ryvvn was for the late save and suspicious activity, rekard and Okaros were the two players that went south but didn't go Purser's, Wasabi/MEM was for off-wagon voting and both of them ended up being human, Ravebomb was for just overall weirdness that didn't feel like Ravebomb weirdness, and ICB because his vote effectively saved Ryvvn.

And 3 of the 5 wolves went South on Night 0, rekard, so I finally get to respond to your disparaging statement made after EOD when I can't respond because I know I'm dead

Last edited by Hellheart on 15 Dec 2013, 13:58:55, edited 2 times in total.

Great game twdog, sorry you got stressed out so much because Sphenodont bailed out on you. It was actually a ton of fun trolling people as the dead (10 attacks from Zombie-ICB, including 4 hits on each of the aforementioned policy voters!) and trying to figure out who the wolves are. Looking forward to a much stronger iteration in the future

Oh, you wanna heal DOM? How do you like healing while ICB gnaws on you for 4 whole rounds? Kind of hard to use a medkit when a zombie's wounding the crap out of you, isn't it? Ohai Necklessone, I see you're working on that Ether Screw, Zombie ICB's here to help you out! Only he's a little hungry after expending a ton of energy beating the crap out of DOM and MEM, so he needs a little snack first...

MVP goes to Okaros for his big middle finger to the other wolves on the way out, turning a guaranteed victory into a very memorable chaotic day that set a chain of events culminating in a very unlikely alliance for escape.

Last edited by Hellheart on 15 Dec 2013, 14:04:45, edited 1 time in total.

So, you ran away. The most important thing was not to let the Dead win, eh? Better to let the wolves escape, I hear you saying? Both sides petrified in fear of what the zombies might do!

WELL. Kinda sleepy. Gonna take a long nap, I guess.

But seriously, y'all. The zombies were kind of not that big a deal. Hit Necklessone four times during his reconstruction project the last night. Did he even slow down? Stop to get a bandaid? Nah, it's fine. Project's totally on schedule.

necklessone wrote:Thanks for the game, twdog. Really appreciate you running it. Need to catch up on the other threads before I can comment more.

Hellheart wrote:I peg 4 out of the 5 wolves after Day 1, but Necklessone and DOM were hell-bent on policy voting me to death so my game-solving didn't matter!

Oh you know it's true, Ryvvn was suspicious as all hell and that late ICB vote broke a tie that nobody voted to re-establish. It's okay though, you ended up giving the humans a way out that ended up being super-necessary since I ended up wounding 3 (EDIT: 2, stupid DOM and his stupid healing off 4 wounds) humans so if Ravebomb moves any vote, the wolves at least tie or win outright. Oops!

FurinMirado, although it didn't end up mattering, you mechanically outed yourself on the last day by naming a Night 0 peek. All of the humans were Vanilla until Day 1, so that automatically makes you a wolf. Not sure anybody would have noticed, though, and you had no way of knowing that since you got super (un)lucky and peeked one of the only two players that had a role on Night 0.

Thanks for running, twdog. It was a lot of fun! I really, really liked the map mechanics and the overall theme. Definitely my favorite game here so far (admittedly, that's a bit biased for obvious reasons, but... )

On the topic of night actions influencing the more normal wolf-game, I think there were a number of important decisions that were influenced by night actions/locations (and not powers):

1) The continual debate about Ryvvn and his imaginary Night 0 wound (and by extension who went south vs. north on NIght Zero).2) Zombie-ICB's activities providing a wonderful piece of distraction/debate/cover for the real ICB3) The mauling of Admetus, mostly due to his night actions+his day thread commentary hinting at his identity as a Worm Cultist

Zombie-ICB could've potentially been done with just standard-ish wolfgame mechanics and a night-power, but I think it worked much better psychologically to "see" him operating on the map.

To my fellow wolves: I'm sure I've earned some Day One lynch/maul votes for a while. That's fine, it was worth it!

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

Those wogs hurt your game twdog. Seriously. Makes mistakes even more costly. I shouldn't have switched to stigmata on day 3, but Okaro's and Furin's actions made me doubt about what was going on. Under normal conditions, it would have been the correct action. And can wolves stop backstabbing each other? Right now I am expecting every game for each wolf to go for a lone wolf victory. This style of wolf play makes things harder and more insecure for me. If I go for obvious, then wolf backstab. If I go for complex, wolves go obvious.

In the Pratchett game, I went simple and it burned me. Whoosh, simon and MEM were wolves. This game I went complex, and actions wer just the simple, obvious ones. Even though, wolves were suspicious, being so obvious made me feel weird about it all.

This was bad for me, because I am not really good in tge early game. Although, I called it on Okaros and Furin, hah! And since I was seeing no PMs, I actually was going to go on an accusation against ICB which I mentikned briefly to Rictus. Ryyvn being so uncooperative was a nail in the coffin later on, though the other wolves' votes confused me on the days before.

Hellheart, I don't know what are you talking about really, but unless it is a hard true fact, everything I say, specially in the first days is just a conjecture or somethjng thrown into the air. That's why I always say likely because it will probably be wrong. So, uh I don't know what you call disparaging.

Your suspect list on Day Four had three of us pegged perfectly rekard, and for all the right reasons too (your top three, no less). Unfortunately, due to the WoGs/dropouts it was too late at that point.

Tbh, I'm a little surprised I managed to talk you out of voting for me that day (though Alpha-ICB would have saved me eventually I'm sure).

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

That's because it is day 4. I am never fixed into one target. Mostly the reason of switching to Ryyvn, was that tgere was substantial evidende against him and Wasabi was determined to not vote for you. Easier to lynch Ryyvn than you at that point for the right reasons.

Ah and Furinm if I said you played badly, I meant badly as a human. Hah.

And well when I throw a list of targets nowadays, it is always a mix of players. Throwing only wolves or humans is not really benefitial.

Thanks twdog. I'm kind of bummed that we didn't get the full win but IMO it was too risky. And I did have a vested interested after necklessone made me his second in command. I guess the wolves felt the same way though.

The craziest feeling was on Friday when I saw a "You've been recruited" PM and I was like, "How many factions do you even have twdog?!" Turns out it was just neck telling me I was now a junior engineer and I was able to get my merit badge the first night!

I think between the flavor text, private win condition, and ryvvn's evasions people thought that was more then there were. It was just human, wolf, and dead with two players that had an optional private win condition

rekard wrote:Hellheart, I don't know what are you talking about really, but unless it is a hard true fact, everything I say, specially in the first days is just a conjecture or somethjng thrown into the air. That's why I always say likely because it will probably be wrong. So, uh I don't know what you call disparaging.

It was more the timing. I understand it's what you do, but it got under my skin because it was posted 2 minutes after EOD when it was very clear that I was dead. Responding at that point would have been against the spirit of the game, and because of the specific nature of the content (my tone-read on ICB and whether the wolves went South) I can't even respond in the F5 thread. It looked like a pretty transparent attempt to ensure that you had the last word, even if it wasn't what you actually meant to do.

It didn't really bother me that much, I mean if I didn't die I would've responded on the following day, but I was right and so I got the last word in without even saying anything. But of course I have to say something because I love the sound of my own voice

You were confusing to me for a long time, MEM. You're difficult to read, and I was leaning kind of wolf and then kind of human but the only read I could really get on you was a voting read that I could never get to stick in the day thread no matter how predictive I think it might be.

EDIT: I think the big issue with the whole 3rd secret faction thing is that the Cultists were the wolves in Innsmouth, so nobody even mentioned the Canal Priests that were mentioned in Admetus' role PM. Then after the Canal Priest reveal it should have more or less wrapped everything up, although I believe that there should have been a second Cultist in case the primary one got lynched or mauled.

Last edited by Hellheart on 15 Dec 2013, 16:17:10, edited 1 time in total.

I just noticed that no one knew who was what for the entire game. So well no hjndsight here, but it's interesting how thjngs were as uncertain fir the dead as humans for the most part.

If I ever get to do as a wolf what I somehow get to do as a human, well, that will be an interesting day.

The outed power worried me a bit because well it was a dangerous power and a wolf could as well have had it. I guess it helps that whatever I do always seems wolfy regardless of faction.

And hellheart that comment was more about making reads like that too early(ICB being human) because things can go wrong at any time or cause the wrong lynch. And when I said south, I meant south near the bomb. Though I lost the track of time when that post went out. The post at the moment was just a comment though. Nothing else beyond that.

rekard wrote:I just noticed that no one knew who was what for the entire game. So well no hjndsight here, but it's interesting how thjngs were as uncertain fir the dead as humans for the most part.

If I ever get to do as a wolf what I somehow get to do as a human, well, that will be an interesting day.

The outed power worried me a bit because well it was a dangerous power and a wolf could as well have had it. I guess it helps that whatever I do always seems wolfy regardless of faction.

And hellheart that comment was more about making reads like that too early(ICB being human) because things can go wrong at any time or cause the wrong lynch. And when I said south, I meant south near the bomb. Though I lost the track of time when that post went out. The post at the moment was just a comment though. Nothing else beyond that.

You always seem wolfy because you flip your reads so often and seem to present half-formed ideas and reads, but rarely follow through on any of them until later in the game where you feel like you have it solved. Your style of play is actually very human, but you post often enough to end up in a village leader role without really trying. Sometimes you let yourself get led off-track too, like with the whole evil-ICB thing, where at some earlier point I would have expected you to bring it back to the wolves and looking at the voting records. IMO, Ravebomb was clearly the last wolf based on voting record alone, and I'm amazed that nobody brought it up since wolf-Furin wasn't about to volunteer for that action.

And I was desperately hoping that you or DOM would push Furin after that awful, awful reads post on Day 3 and it never came. That instantly put him at the top of my wolf list, and while it could have just been a bad/hurried post from human-Furin it's impossible to know that if he's never pressured.

I figured it was simply a comment and not something meant to put me off of my game since I was basically already dead, which is why I'm not raging like I was at Ryvvn. It's not something you intentionally do, but in the future it'd be considerate if you would check EOD and refrain from posting if the person you're commenting on is in a situation where they're going to die before they can respond

Other wolves were wolfier, so they needed to go first due to the critical day. Rambling about different targets would have messed things up further. Furin would come later. That's why I suggested Furin to Rictus as a seer target.

rekard wrote:Other wolves were wolfier, so they needed to go first due to the critical day. Rambling about different targets would have messed things up further. Furin would come later. That's why I suggested Furin to Rictus as a seer target.

Smart call, since he ended up being the Wolf Seer. His being the Seer didn't matter much, but I knew that there had to be at least one more Seer out there and having that particular Rictus result really ruined Furin's potential credibility.

HH, you keep harping on that day one read. I keep telling you, I don't even know what a Day 1 ICB wolf read looks like. There's not enough of a sample to get accuracy.

On the other hand, rekard's comment last game about "the opposite of your reads being true" would have been used had you lived. Also, we were going to put the "Alpha Wolf ICB" plan into motion late into day 2, and Furin was to start in early on day 3. When Zombie ICB struck on night 2, though, you made me actually look more human . It was pretty funny, I started in with "vote for me," and then the reports of my attacks happened and I was all "LOL no wait."

Okaros, allow me to tip my hat to you. You out-ravebombed me with little notice. 45 minutes remaining in the day, I started planning the alpha wolf thing -- and you blew it to pieces, snatching defeat from what would have eventually become a wolf victory. It was impressive.

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:Okaros, allow me to tip my hat to you. You out-ravebombed me with little notice. 45 minutes remaining in the day, I started planning the alpha wolf thing -- and you blew it to pieces, snatching defeat from what would have eventually become a wolf victory. It was impressive.

Admittedly, I'd been planning for a little bit at that point to either vig or night-kill you , just to remove your lynch protection and give the humans something vaguely resembling a chance.

That you then came online and volunteered to go Alpha Wolf to save Ryvvn, well...

"I'll prime a snipe post for that purpose now" was a very deliberate choice of words indeed.

Anybody have questions about the betrayal, btw? I think a healthy chunk of it may have wound up in PMs, particularly between twdog and myself or Wasabi, so I'm not sure what's actually spelled out where people can easy read it.

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

Okaros wrote:Anybody have questions about the betrayal, btw? I think a healthy chunk of it may have wound up in PMs, particularly between twdog and myself or Wasabi, so I'm not sure what's actually spelled out where people can easy read it.

I can't believe how assured we were of your loyalty that we didn't even bother to press you on it.

You're all like, "I'm Wasabi's God."And we're all like, "Oh, cool... and so then we have ICB do the whole growl thing, and, and, and!"

yeah, I still haven't gotten all those up. The long and short of it though, was that wasabi from day 0 was supposed to find the reincarnated seldon, but had no idea who it was. I told him he could ask me everyday if someone was seldon, with the possibility to get more detailed info later on.

My plan was just not pick anyone at all to be seldon until he got to a certain quest phase for fear the picked person would be lynched,mauled, dropped out, or whatever. Anyhoo, on night 2 on round 12 wasabi did a ritual in the iron tower that was suppose to tell him were seldon was, and that's when I actually picked someone, and it came up with okaros. At first, I didn't like that choice because it would take a wolf away, but I thought it over a little and decided it be ok, because the drop outs were favoring the humans and it'd be a neutral change.

So in his night 2 results I let him know that there was a "possibility" he might be able to switch to an "unaligned" faction, so that if wasabi actually found him it wouldn't be completely out of left field. Plus it would give okaros the chance to drop some hints something had happened to him, if he felt like it. Meanwhile I told wasabi seldon was in security on round 12.

Very early on day 4, wasabi figured out it was okaros, so I gave him detailed win conditions, and PM'd okaros to give him the short version. During the day, wasabi and okaros planned out if and how they'd get out and okaros had a bunch of timing questions regarding parity, and what I said (basically) was that if they got out night 4 it'd be a neutral change. I wasn't aware the okaros was thinking about vigging someone, so was a bit surprised when he brought it. But we both knew that the vig shot, while icb was declaring alpha, followed by okaros bailing out would be insanely awesome. It was narratively perfect.

Wasabi, didn't know about any of this, and didn't know (but apparently suspected) that okaros was a wolf. So when okaros took the vig shot wasabi assumed that the plan had derailed somehow. I let them write up their "what happened to them later" bits in the day post, because if you pull something like that off, you should be able to write yourself a bit of fluff

Last edited by twdog on 15 Dec 2013, 20:12:10, edited 2 times in total.

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:HH, you keep harping on that day one read. I keep telling you, I don't even know what a Day 1 ICB wolf read looks like. There's not enough of a sample to get accuracy.

On the other hand, rekard's comment last game about "the opposite of your reads being true" would have been used had you lived. Also, we were going to put the "Alpha Wolf ICB" plan into motion late into day 2, and Furin was to start in early on day 3. When Zombie ICB struck on night 2, though, you made me actually look more human . It was pretty funny, I started in with "vote for me," and then the reports of my attacks happened and I was all "LOL no wait."

Okaros, allow me to tip my hat to you. You out-ravebombed me with little notice. 45 minutes remaining in the day, I started planning the alpha wolf thing -- and you blew it to pieces, snatching defeat from what would have eventually become a wolf victory. It was impressive.

My morphing into you, and then running across the middle of the ship, was Admetus' choice and he later said it was to make you look more human. I'm not sure if he thought you were a mislynch at the time, but you're worth keeping around if you're a human so I didn't really mind the choice. Plus I'd just get to screw with everybody as you, which was great.

I simply had a voting read that you're always a wolf if Ryvvn is a wolf which was obvious IMO. All of my voting reads save Wasabi and all of my mechanics reads were right. I'm done defending my tone reads because nobody cares.

Admetus and I were the only active people in the dead thread, which was the only truly frustrating thing for me this game. We had hoped for more contributions from the other people who died.

Hellheart wrote:Admetus and I were the only active people in the dead thread, which was the only truly frustrating thing for me this game. We had hoped for more contributions from the other people who died.

Sorry about that. I tend to need day zero (or the ramp up to the game) to get in character & decide upon my voice for any given game. I likewise don't tend to lurk in the dead forum after the guillotine drops.

In this case, I died, checked into the dead thread & said "holy shit there's a lot going on around here", & my analysis was blunted by dental surgery & happy fun recovery pills (Pirin). I was coherent enough to ask what was needed (viewtopic.php?f=48&t=350&p=16552#p16552) but I never was able (in the limited time we had left) to wrap my head around what the dead were supposed to be doing other than rattling their chains and dancing to thriller.

Had I died earlier, I probably would have been more present on the basis of it not coinciding with the dentist visit and less to catch up on in thread.

Hope this helps,

7z7

"Zark Helmet is too awesome NOT to use!" -Smirker"The possibility that it's Zark simply murdering someone at a whim each day... would be delightful if true, but I worry that that's too simple a solution." - Okaros

Hellheart wrote:You were confusing to me for a long time, MEM. You're difficult to read, and I was leaning kind of wolf and then kind of human but the only read I could really get on you was a voting read that I could never get to stick in the day thread no matter how predictive I think it might be.

I guess I'm glad that I'm difficult to read but in this game at least, I put it all on the table pretty early. As I said, every time I came to a situation where a reveal would have been possibly damaging to me personally but beneficial to the human team, I revealed that info.

The truth is, in all my games I think that I'm pretty consistent going for a team win. Well, except the last one where I was a team of me! I'm always willing to be thrown under the bus by the wolf team or to throw others under if I think that will give more human cred. And when I'm up for lynch, I generally don't fight all that much since I feel that's always a wolfy thing to do (or seer). Either way it tips your hand. I may give a reasoned defense of why it's a bad call and why someone else is a better one but in the end getting lynched as a human or a wolf gives great info or cover to each team respectively. I suppose the only time I would really fight to not get lynched would be lynch or lose where it would be loss, but even then it's hard to change people's minds.

Hellheart wrote:Admetus and I were the only active people in the dead thread, which was the only truly frustrating thing for me this game. We had hoped for more contributions from the other people who died.

I do agree that more active participation would have been certainly have been nice, but really if there is anyone at all being active then that's ok.

You typically see it go two ways in the dead thread, some people leave the game altogether (this is usually me), whereas others really follow it closely for the rest of the game.

The dead have two primary purposes, 1) to add extra complications (most of all, new ways to lose the game) and 2) to give a way for people that died early to keep playing.

So basically since you died early, but were able to do stuff for the rest of the game, I view this as a success. My point is that, dead players are not "required" to play in the dead faction, although it's absolutely better if they do

Good game twdog, and thanks! Just finishing up a brief skim of the various fora.

I was very happy that you were decisive about WoG'ing the missed-vote players, but it definitely did frustrate the balance of things a bit, and I'm sure that you were struggling with that yourself. If there's frustration coming off of my day-thread posts, it's not personal. That said, the balance of a four/five-faction game is pretty delicate to begin with. What would have happened if dferrantino had Admetus' or Wasabi's role, etc? I think the map games themselves are insanely complex, and then you complicate it further by putting in more and more stuff. They're fun, but if you're frustrated as a GM, I think you might want to just dial back the complexity a bit. Then again, maybe the map games need that kind of complexity to give the players something to do.

I really enjoy the map games, although I'm not as big of a fan of the faction-within-faction-within-faction. I think it creates some really fun outcomes (the Okaros Backstab!), but as a ~vanilla human, it was even more information disparity for me. There's a cult! There's another cult! There's the dead! (I didn't realize they were the same as the cult). So, now, I'm trying to figure out if there are 4 wolves, 2 cultists, 2 other-cultists or 5/1/1 or what-have-you, and it makes the analysis more difficult to put together. I still wasn't certain that Ryvvn was a wolf and not a teammate of Admetus'.

Powers were a bit ~wonky. It felt like the humans had some very wolf-like powers (chameleon, reflection, PM-interception, etc). There were quite a few of those that screamed wolf to me, but also didn't have as much benefit to the humans (until they became dead). For example: Barricaders. The only wolf they would've effected was Okaros, I believe, searching for his bullets, or maybe general upgrades - probably would've hurt the humans more than the wolves. Chameleon - a human doesn't need to hide, and definitely does NOT want to sow confusion. Something adding to the information-disparity is generally a wolf-benefit, not a human-benefit.

I'm not sure how good my ~original power was, since I only successfuly used it once, but having to spend four rounds to get partial info felt very low-powered (which is why I didn't really bother using it that much). Reading some of your notes about the location seer in the wolf forum makes me think it was intended to be more potent than it was, but I still had to guess which rounds the target was doing something in, which meant that there was a 25% chance of me targeting a wolf or the like, and then a 33% chance of me targeting them at the right time to reveal something of interest - and the only useful information I could've gotten was off of Ryvvn (all other wolves had passive powers, or would've BACKFIRED for someone like FurinMirado where I might've seen him seering).

Overall, this one was fun - I was ~pseudo phoning it in and sheeping a bit, but I was paying attention here & there. I never once went and did a reread, and I'm sure what analysis I was putting out suffered for it. Once we hit that lynch or lose point, I was starting to get a little frustrated, but that's a dropout/WoG issue, not a GM issue.

This game was a lot of fun and I'm glad I did not decline. With the holidays coming up I probably would have declined any game EXCEPT the Map Game. That's how much I enjoy it (also CAD's Everyone's Special games).

So sorry to my fellow wolves if I drew unnecessary attention for not "acting normal". Tons of analysis just wasn't in the cards again.

Thanks to twdog for running an excellent game! See you all in the new year.

FurinMirado wrote:This game was a lot of fun and I'm glad I did not decline. With the holidays coming up I probably would have declined any game EXCEPT the Map Game. That's how much I enjoy it (also CAD's Everyone's Special games).

So sorry to my fellow wolves if I drew unnecessary attention for not "acting normal". Tons of analysis just wasn't in the cards again.

Thanks to twdog for running an excellent game! See you all in the new year.

You honestly didn't need to do a ton of analysis, but I was expecting you to at least make an actual read instead of repeating what had been said on the past couple days and just leaving it unfinished. You don't need to do a ton of analysis to find your own reason why a player might be a wolf

Okaros wrote:Edi2: Re-reading Admetus' post about the Cultists... Anyone want to place bets that Admetus is the Worm Cultist trying to throw people off his scent?

Also, if he's claiming there wasn't an item there, he definitely picked up the helmet-thing that I found. I confirmed with twdog that I left it behind.

So, I'm up to Night 3 in the wolf forum. Obviously this is not my proudest day. Gonna have a perma-cringe going, but fortunately it's also the shortest wolf thread.

Is this the post where you're saying night actions let you know I was likely a third faction? Because if so, you might have lucked out entirely on an irregularity.viewtopic.php?f=46&t=318#p15271

rules thread wrote:If a room contains your quest item and a hint\power up, then you will only get the quest item. There will not be multiple hints\power ups in a location, but multiple quest items is possible. If that happens you will only see one of the quest items, randomly picked. I try to avoid that, but where this stuff shows up is partially driven by player actions. If it isn't your item, you'll see the quest item and take the hint/power up. You will only get one item (hint,power up, role, whatever ...) per night.

I got a hint, not a power up or a quest item. Since the helmet-thing wasn't your quest item, you should probably have gotten a hint, too. I saw other people search the Abandoned Work Camp the same night as me, so I was assuming they either got a quest item or they'd have the same note about recent Cult activity, so I figured I had to make that public or risk looking like I was covering something. Especially since I'd already made my previous night's results public.

It's possible I made an incorrect assumption and that wasn't a hint, then I assume I would have seen that quest item you saw. Soooo. It was the opposite of hiding something.

And Ryvvn, as far as I'm concerned, that was your one-time lie. Feel free to lie about being a wolf as much as you like from now on! But, just a warning, I may have an itchy trigger finger about it.

Okaros wrote:Edi2: Re-reading Admetus' post about the Cultists... Anyone want to place bets that Admetus is the Worm Cultist trying to throw people off his scent?

Also, if he's claiming there wasn't an item there, he definitely picked up the helmet-thing that I found. I confirmed with twdog that I left it behind.

So, I'm up to Night 3 in the wolf forum. Obviously this is not my proudest day. Gonna have a perma-cringe going, but fortunately it's also the shortest wolf thread.

Is this the post where you're saying night actions let you know I was likely a third faction? Because if so, you might have lucked out entirely on an irregularity.<snip>It's possible I made an incorrect assumption and that wasn't a hint, then I assume I would have seen that quest item you saw. Soooo. It was the opposite of hiding something.

Hrm. Re-reading the rules, I think we both got dinged there. I should've gotten the item, you probably should've gotten the monkey harness.

You reporting a lack of items was't really the deciding factor for me (though it didn't hurt), it was the magical "cultist presence" you referred to finding *immediately* after I'd searched there. There was simply no time for anybody else to have done anything. We knew about the Cult of the Worm from seering Wasabi on Night 0, so for you to pop up talking about cultists being someplace impossible was really, really telling.

So yeah, night actions (and the timing of them) were absolutely critical there. In a normal-ish wolf game mode with simultaneous night actions, it could have been explained by there being an actual cultist searching that location there that night, with you just being an innocent reporter of the facts. Instead...

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

That was because of the rnd most likely. As twdog said, not all the players would get the same item/hint in the same place. That was not indicated in the initial rules though until Zark asked when my search and his search and Rave's search didn't match.

Yeah, but nothing actually happened in this game to cause recent cultist activity. That's not even what I was talking about! The exact quote was:

the camp was from Worm Cultists trying to recover cretin artifices, but they were driven off. You think they might be coming back in then near future.

I intentionally paraphrased very roughly, because I wasn't sure what exact text would be used for humans. But that didn't help me in my quest at all so I had to assume it was given to other people, and that it would serve the purpose of, for instance, naming the cult faction.

Admetus wrote:Yeah, but nothing actually happened in this game to cause recent cultist activity. That's not even what I was talking about! The exact quote was:

the camp was from Worm Cultists trying to recover cretin artifices, but they were driven off. You think they might be coming back in then near future.

I intentionally paraphrased very roughly, because I wasn't sure what exact text would be used for humans. But that didn't help me in my quest at all so I had to assume it was given to other people, and that it would serve the purpose of, for instance, naming the cult faction.

Heh. Yeah, you got something completely different from what I did for your search results there. Let me see...

twdog wrote:gm note 1: the camp was being used by a Martian expedition from one their petty kingdoms. There are a number of crates here, and in one of them you see an sturdy harness with numerous elaborate piping, gears, and wires integrated into it. Seems almost like a small cage, or suit. It's some bizarre Martian thing that's of no use to you. Besides, you could hardly fit a child into it.

I think the difference in text probably reflects Earth-native point of view vs. Mars-native point of view, though it was nearly impossible to realize that without seeing other people's result text (which nobody was sharing). A similar piece of asymmetrical information tripped up Furin at the end with the Wolves not knowing/realizing that plain humans did not receive their powers until Day 1 proper (how could Furin seer on Night 0 if he was human? ).

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

So I WAS right about Work Camp having our other (unimplemented) upgrade, nice!

Where was my upgrade as the Chameleon? I couldn't figure it out and my best guesses were Stone Maze and Temple.

Curious where my healer upgrade was also.

7z7

"Zark Helmet is too awesome NOT to use!" -Smirker"The possibility that it's Zark simply murdering someone at a whim each day... would be delightful if true, but I worry that that's too simple a solution." - Okaros

Admetus wrote:And Ryvvn, as far as I'm concerned, that was your one-time lie. Feel free to lie about being a wolf as much as you like from now on! But, just a warning, I may have an itchy trigger finger about it.

Would you kindly point out my actual lie? So I can show you how it's teeeeeechnical not

Admetus wrote:And Ryvvn, as far as I'm concerned, that was your one-time lie. Feel free to lie about being a wolf as much as you like from now on! But, just a warning, I may have an itchy trigger finger about it.

Would you kindly point out my actual lie? So I can show you how it's teeeeeechnical not

You may have missed my point. Other people decide how much credit to extend you. As a courtesy, I'm letting you know you've burned it out.

Admetus wrote:And Ryvvn, as far as I'm concerned, that was your one-time lie. Feel free to lie about being a wolf as much as you like from now on! But, just a warning, I may have an itchy trigger finger about it.

Would you kindly point out my actual lie? So I can show you how it's teeeeeechnical not

You may have missed my point. Other people decide how much credit to extend you. As a courtesy, I'm letting you know you've burned it out.

No need to extend credit if he's a day 1 lynch.

The problem is that my day 1 lynch list has about a dozen people on it.

Admetus wrote:And Ryvvn, as far as I'm concerned, that was your one-time lie. Feel free to lie about being a wolf as much as you like from now on! But, just a warning, I may have an itchy trigger finger about it.

Would you kindly point out my actual lie? So I can show you how it's teeeeeechnical not

You may have missed my point. Other people decide how much credit to extend you. As a courtesy, I'm letting you know you've burned it out.

No, it's fine, I got it; obviously it'll be at your discretion whether or not you believe me next time I explicitly state I'm human, and if I don't... well, I already know I can't get away with that anymore.

Last edited by Ryvvn on 17 Dec 2013, 12:31:46, edited 1 time in total.

twdog, just wanted to say thanks again, this game has really caused me to consider a similarly styled game should I ever choose to run one; I absolutely love the idea of incorporating what I see as tabletop elements into the core game.

Admetus wrote:And Ryvvn, as far as I'm concerned, that was your one-time lie. Feel free to lie about being a wolf as much as you like from now on! But, just a warning, I may have an itchy trigger finger about it.

Would you kindly point out my actual lie? So I can show you how it's teeeeeechnical not

Ryvvn wrote:I don't know if I'm the only one with a personal goal, but while my role PM will not allow me to elaborate on my mission, it doesn't say that I can't state that I count for human parity

I would totally grammar nazi you on the difference between "will not let me" and "does not let me," but I don't see the benefit of wasting my time trying to prove that you lied when, once again, nobody cares.

Twdog, thanks for running this game. I had a great time playing. Somewhere you posted about how to might not use a map next time, and I can see your point how it doesn't add a lot for the amount of complexity it costs. For me, I enjoyed the theme the most. I've never played space1899 and I'm not a huge steampunker. Even without having an actual avatar or RPing I felt like I was immersed in the theme. So you get great kudos for choosing this setting and your RP flavor.

Of course, MVP goes to the Okaros / wasabi lovers for making it off the red planet in a most spectacular fashion. Epic. ICBQuestion for all: any suggestions / comments on how the humans can defeat the ICB reveal plan? We can't always cont on a wolf traitor.

Rictus wrote:Twdog, thanks for running this game. I had a great time playing. Somewhere you posted about how to might not use a map next time, and I can see your point how it doesn't add a lot for the amount of complexity it costs. For me, I enjoyed the theme the most. I've never played space1899 and I'm not a huge steampunker. Even without having an actual avatar or RPing I felt like I was immersed in the theme. So you get great kudos for choosing this setting and your RP flavor.

Of course, MVP goes to the Okaros / wasabi lovers for making it off the red planet in a most spectacular fashion. Epic. ICBQuestion for all: any suggestions / comments on how the humans can defeat the ICB reveal plan? We can't always cont on a wolf traitor.

The simple answer is that in the situation you were in, you always lose. Sooner or later you have to lynch ICB, so if Okaros uses his Vig on a human you will lose the day you have to lynch ICB.

If you're talking about in general, if somebody claims wolf they're usually doing it for a reason - they may have another life like ICB, they may be unkillable, or they may be trying to buy a wolf power role another day. If you have a Vig or you may win a Vig, it's better to just keep wagoning the two/three people that you have been up to that point and simply shoot the claimer. If you won't have a Vig, it's usually best to lynch him when you don't have a better option.

The basic idea is that a vulnerable wolf power role can NEVER claim wolf in that spot unless he's absolutely certain that he cannot be shot. Because if the humans have a shot, he will be. The equation changes slightly if he'd be outed the next day or two, but it's still far more likely that he's either vanilla or invulnerable.

EDIT: From what I've seen this role is super-rare in Werewolf games here, but if the wolves are expected to have have either a Day Angel or a Day + Night Angel and somebody claims wolf, the correct response is to Vig him the FOLLOWING day since there's a really high chance that he's been Angeled and won't die. Day or Day + Night Angels can never target the same player twice in a row, or sometimes twice at all, because that power is ridiculously strong (Day Angels sometimes protect from lynches as well).

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I gave twdog a bunch of ideas, probably more than he would have liked to get, but a different approach can make the map much more important without adding too much complexity. It does strike out into uncharted territory, though, because the one thing we both agreed with is that the wolf-human dynamic works much more poorly in a map game than a multiple-team dynamic would.

Rictus wrote:Question for all: any suggestions / comments on how the humans can defeat the ICB reveal plan? We can't always cont on a wolf traitor.

I wasn't lying when I told the humans they had already lost*.

There were an even number of players alive when I came out. If the betrayal hadn't happened, my non-lynch would have made it an odd number, and the humans would have remained at Lynch or Lose every day until they (a) lynched a human and lost to the wolves, or (b) got the population down to 3 and lost to the dead.

* It occurs to me that there MIGHT have been one chance to win -- force a no-lynch one day (was that a possibility? I don't remember) to get the player count even again, and then lynch wolves on all other days. At the start of day 10 there'd be 3 humans and one wolf. You'd lynch the last wolf at population 3, so twdog would have to decide whether the dead still won.