Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Anakin has a style advantage vs Dooku and the novelization which potrays the fight so one0sidedly repeatedly jacks up his strength as a key factor in his victory. And yes, when comapring tier nines, styles matter:

DR Yoda, unlike AOTC Yoda, was not willing to kill Dooku. So the comparison is irrelevant.

Also, you're completely using that wrong. The quote is for 9 vs 9s. As in, they are so good that, if they fight each other, the difference might just be a marginal difference like a lightsaber form. That's distinctively different than lightsaber forms being relevant in all comparative battles between them. Regardless, the difference between the two fights is *so* extreme that you couldn't even justify it if you tried. Anakin's performance is leagues better than Yoda's.

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"The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66 DR Yoda, unlike AOTC Yoda, was not willing to kill Dooku. So the comparison is irrelevant.

Also, you're completely using that wrong. The quote is for 9 vs 9s. As in, they are so good that, if they fight each other, the difference might just be a marginal difference like a lightsaber form. That's distinctively different than lightsaber forms being relevant in all comparative battles between them. Regardless, the difference between the two fights is *so* extreme that you couldn't even justify it if you tried. Anakin's performance is leagues better than Yoda's.

Yoda was initially not willing to kill Dooku and then lets go of his attachment and accept he must destroy Dooku.

If how you stylistically match up to someone is a decisive factor, I'm willing to bet that it remains a factor in just how well you batter someone compared to someone who lacks such a stylistic edge.

Also worth mentioning the novelization is the only source which depicts the fight so favorably for Anakin. Coincidentally, it also is the least aligned with the film and makes the greatest use of hyperbole. The novelization also heavily emphasizes Anakin's strength being too much for Dooku to handle. Not so relevant with Yoda, who isn't a strength orientated fighter.

Cool? Like I said, it doesn't matter. In AOTC, Yoda *was* initially willing to kill Dooku. That's apparent in the G-canon script when he tries to kill him.

... What?

The novel is, "coincidentally," the most canonical novelization Star Wars has ever put in. No other version of ROTS (film and script aside) has even a shred of the canoncity that the adult novel has. Anyway, I have no clue what you're trying to convey in your last paragraph. You sort of just make a lot of vague claims without drawing any conclusion.

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"The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66 Yoda jumps on his shoulder and tries to drive his lightsaber into Dooku, rofl.

And other sources have Yoda explicitly not trying to kill him, something supported by the movie where Yoda doesn't attack back when Dooku attacks him. Not to mention the entire premise and climax of Dark Rendezvous revolves around Yoda choosing to let go of his attachment to Dooku. So I'm going to ignore the senior novelization. That it at one point had Lucas's authorial support doesn't make it irrefutable.

I'll ask you to post the script's depiction of Anakin vs Dooku?, I'm just asking since it would be useful for this discussion.

No, it says Dooku and Obi become tired as Anakin grows stronger. It doesn't state the reason why (you just lied saying it was because Dooku had to fend both off), but the novel supplies it: Dooku is growing tired because Anakin is forcing him to expend absurd amounts of energy. It's perfectly consistent. The adult novel also has Anakin growing stronger as the battle progresses.

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"The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[B]What the actual ****.
It doesn't state the reason why (you just lied saying it was because Dooku had to fend both off), but the novel supplies it: Dooku is growing tired because Anakin is forcing him to expend absurd amounts of energy.

The script is essentially the same as the adult novel. We know this because Stover literally had the script in front of him when writing and then got everything confirmed by Lucas. Any "contraction" that exists is of your own imagination or irrelevant to Lucas' vision. The film is different because a significant portion of the film was cut, presumably due to time.

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"The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years."

There is no denying that Anakin started the fight with Kenobi's support. Dooku is also instructed by Sidious to specifically actualize an outcome he wants (even though Dooku doesn't know the ultimate goal). He can't just fight however he wants. He has to find a way to take Kenobi out of the picture, while also dealing with Anakin. There is stipulations to his strategizing, while the Jedi is simply trying to bring him down. At last, the form may not be decisive on its own, but I don't see why it shouldn't be a factor that makes the fight more one-sided.

Comparing an emotionally attached Yoda to an enraged Anakin seems like flawed thinking to me. Also, the idea of the rage he gets from a permanent state of mind being equally potent as the burst of rage that was suppressed for years doesn't seem like genuine thinking to me. More like cancerous wank. Not to mention that Anakin had the motivation of saving Padme during KF. Everything he did, he did with the thought of "failure = Padme's death". To think that he'd be just as motivated in fights after Padme's safe seems bizarre, cause it suggests that Padme's life is irrelevant to dark side Anakin, even though Padme is the reason he fell to the dark side in the first place.

I agree with Azronger that even though Palpatine and Yoda are very close in power (Palpatine is slightly stronger), Yoda has no variety of abilities to actually kill Palpatine. Especially in the context of Legends, and not just the movies, Yoda doesn't seem to have a way of killing Sheev.

I think that Anakin is the king of circumstances. He can outperform Yoda under right circumstances, but can also fare far worse than him. Assuming that this is an arena type match with no concerns for Padme, or some other circumstantial focus/rage he gets, he would lose 10 out of 10 times, due to being an idiot who is far from properly harnessing his powers, and having no comparable mastery to Yoda. Against Sheev, the fight is gonna be even more one-sided.

I didn't vote, cause the poll assumes equality between Yoda and Sidious (more specifically, it assumes that Anakin's performance against Sheev wouldn't vary from his performance against Yoda).

1. There are many definitive quotes, including within the RotS novel itself, which is where most of Harr and Skillz' Anakin wank stems from, confirming that Yoda and Sidious are the ultimate masters of their respective sides of the Force.

quote:

When those blades met, it was more than Yoda against Palpatine, more the millennia of Sith against the legions of Jedi; this was the expression of the fundamental conflict of the universe itself.

Light against dark.

Winner take all.
[..]
The avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known…
--Revenge of the Sith novelization

2. While Anakin's rage-enhanced victory over Dooku was emphatic, Sidious' victory over a rage-amped Darth Maul was so emphatic that Maul saw more lightsaber blades than he could count, and then more than that.

And this isn't Sidious fighting at his most desperate hour, this is him taking a comfortable victory over a bloodlusted, raging Maul.

quote:

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.
--Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

3. A Yoda who was holding back, and trying to convert Dooku to the Light Side, emphatically defeated Dooku on the Dark Side nexus of Vjun, which would amp Dooku and hinder Yoda.

It took Anakin a massive rage amp on neutral ground to begin dominating Dooku, never mind while being hindered emotionally and by a nexus.

quote:

"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

[...]

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

[...]

Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white.

-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

So can we please get over this horseshit about Anakin/Vader beating Yoda or Sidious.

His raw power may come close to theirs, on his best day and with the right amount of motivation, but he lacks the skill, experience or focus to direct that power in a meaningful enough way to secure a win. He has no answer for Sidious and Yoda's speed or mastery of the Force, and there's no doubt that they would be able to undermine his delicate emotional state, as Dooku has been able to. Can we also remember that on the Invisible Hand, Dooku briefly brought the fight back to even ground by simply using Dun Moch, until Sidious prodded Anakin onward?

__________________“The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”