Explaining the EDL and the Guardian

Here’s a follow-up piece by Modernity Blog to his (satirical) guest post last week about the European Defence League (EDL), entitled “Imagine you’re a British neofascist”. Any essay relating to EDL seems to provoke quite a bit of passion, and the reaction to Modernity’s post was no exception. However, I think it’s a valuable conversation to have, and so am publishing Modernity’s latest piece in the spirit of open debate and free inquiry about this very contentious issue. We welcome your comments.

But perhaps we should consider some of the underlying issues and see what comes out.

In this form of arguing by innuendo, what we are meant to believe is that the neo-Nazis and their close associates, who actually run the EDL and decide policy, have suddenly taken a liking to Israelis, and by inference Jews.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Clearly, an alternative line of reasoning is possible, that the neofascists within the EDL are lying about their motives.

It is a simpler and much more straightforward answer because otherwise we have to explain away why neo-Nazis would suddenly take a liking to Israelis, and Jews.

The problem being is that, neo-Nazis don’t like Jews, and in particular Israel as it is seen as the centre of Jewish power. That is something that all neo-Nazis fear the most. A central theme to Nazism is the notion that Jews control andmanipulateevents around the world froma central location, in this case Israel. [Warning: illustrative links to original Nazi propaganda, nasty racist material.]

It is hardly credible that entrenched neo-Nazis would suddenly wake up one-day and decide “Yes, we like Israelis.”

It seems incongruous, and ever so improbable.

Why people would advance these arguments in one way shape or form I can’t say, they are nonsensical because you have to assume a multiplicity of tenuous assumptions, that just don’t hang together naturally.

For example, firstly, you have to assume that neo-Nazis are honest about their motives. Secondly, that you can take their word as truthful. Thirdly, that they are sincere in their beliefs. Fourthly, that they have changed completely, to now liking Israelis and Jews.

Which is all rather ludicrous and contrary to the evidence.

Possibly the reason that this argument, by innuendo, is pushed is that those people advancing it are completely ill-informed about the nature of the EDL?

Or conceivably they know next to nothing of politics or history? Perhaps they haven’t thought about the issues? Maybe they are prisoners of their own prejudices, they want to believe the worst and so do.

I can’t say one way or the other but what disturbs me is that seemingly highly educated individuals would erroneously jumped to the conclusion that neo-Nazis have suddenly grown a love for all things Israeli, and Jews in particular.

It doesn’t make sense.

Surely, following Occam’s razor,the simpler answer is probably the correct one? And in the case of the EDL that means they are merely putting on a front and lying.

Of course, if you’re going to seriously argue the EDL really like Israelis and Jews then it is incumbent on you to provide some concrete evidence other than a flag.

Also you would have to explain how neo-Nazis have come to this conclusion and why. Above all, you would have to explain how neo-Nazis have dropped their all-consuming hatred of Jews and are now to be taken seriously.

It’s not too surprising that those most keen to advance these arguments are often themselves fierce critics of Israel, but to argue that the neo-Nazis in the EDL leadership should be taken at face value is naive at best.

Some gullible types might be taken in, but that doesn’t change the historical evidence nor the fact that the EDL leadership are neo-Nazis and their allies.

Again, so anyone trying to advance this argument would:

1) have to explain why the EDL leadership are not neo-Nazis
2) need to argue why those neo-Nazis are sincere and should be taken at their word 3) detail precisely why the EDL had taken this position, etc etc

I favour the simplest answer that the neo-Nazis in the EDL are lying and using this as a ploy to wrong foot their opponents.

Seriously, why should we believe the EDL?

What compelling reason is there that we should suspend our natural scepticism of political activists? If we would take the words of mainstream politicians with a pinch of salt, then surely the EDL’s and their assorted neo-Nazis’ deserve more than a handful?

Ultimately, the EDL are not what they say they are, and anyone semi-serious on these issues shouldn’t be fooled by them, and certainly not Guardian journalists.

1) above – how can the EDL prove a negative, ie that it is not Nazi? What must it do (I think that I can guess how it ought to behave, and I agree)?

(As for 2) and 3) agreed, absolutely)

And modernity, are not we, who correspond regularly to CiFWatch and support Israel against the delegitimisers, who demonstrate peacefully outside Israeli shops political activists, too? I suspect that you will argue that the difference lies between the methods the EDL adopts and those of “people like us” and you would be right.

And delegitimisers do argue by innuendo, because they either don’t have the smarts to do otherwise or they lack the evidence to support what they are arguing.

I am suspicious of the EDL and wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them because they have less intelligence than donkeys and, like the Muslims/Islamists they are so against, are united by hatred rather than a positive vision (and you cannot have a positive vision which is not inclusive or which discriminates against a whole people, and they do).

Having said all that, I note that you have not addressed what is, for me, the most vital questions – why the EDL and why now?

I have met many people who are frustrated by the attitudes towards Islamism of successive governments here in the UK. These people feel under threat, whether they actually are or not, and said governments, instead of hearing them out and responding in ways to allay their fears, seem to them to be appeasing some of the worst excesses of Islamism. Marry these people’s concerns with their lack of capability to differentiate real from imagined threat and you get skewed thinking – isn’t that right, Mitnaged? Once more, who listens to the concerns of people such as those in the tiny Jewish community in my nearest local big town whose rabbi has to walk to Shabbat service under police guard because his route takes him through a Muslim area?

It is immature and not at all helpful to resort to EDL-type action, but (again the devil’s advocate question) do you have other suggestions and if so what are they?

The Guardian and it’s CiFillists are merely reacting in shock and horror to the widespread support that The EDL has generated. How seemingly easy it is to tar the EDL members as racists, ‘bringers of Hate’ etc.

New political coalescences usually have similar problems of people with definitely different political agendas trying to join and influence a brand new ‘party’ with a future. It has happened to the Green Party with BNP members suddenly being uncovered.

The EDL shouldn’t be too concerned. Guardian tactics are well known. Anyone who seriously criticizes Islam is termed anti Muslim or racist on CiF. Such is The Guardian’s preferred strategy. How many articles are we being fed on CiF about Islam. It doesn’t openly defend the abominations but seems to try to ‘put them in context’ to lessen the appalling impact that true Islam has to a person who has ‘Western Values’.

Indeed, The Guardian couldn’t care a fishes bosom for Muslims. What they want is an anti American ally and many Muslims, especially the Islamist factions, fit the bill down to a T. To hell with Sharia punishments. To hell with murdering homosexuals and condemning women to death for things that are not even criminal in the hated Western Liberal Democracies.

It would be nice if the EDL could rid itself of its football hooligans. I am not happy at all to see EDL demonstrators with face masks. That is bad bad bad. Reminds me of demonstrations by Islamists posing as Muslims.

I think the EDL is far more simple than people are making it out to be. The EDL is merely a vehicle for people of many contradictory views who have grouped around an anti-Global Jihad platform. It undoubtedly does include many honest people who support Israel, however it has also been used by extremist political forces who simply do not have our best interests in mind. This sort of thing has been going on for a very long time now – even though it is not often acknowledged. Take Vlaams Belang as one more example.

As for extremist political forces, this can also applied to the various self-appointed and equally malign spokesmen for Islam, surely, who UK governments are busily bending themselves out of shape to appease?

Hizb-ut-Tahrir, banned in so many countries because of its links with the Muslim Brotherhood, is still allowed to recruit and spread its own sort of fascism in the UK. We should be asking ourselves why and many of us ask our MPs who seem powerless to prevent HuT’s influence.

I think the EDL is far more simple than people are making it out to be. The EDL is merely a vehicle for people of many contradictory views who have grouped around an anti-Global Jihad platform.

Yes. A true ‘grass roots’ movement. It’s origins were a reaction to the Islamist provocations in Slough I think during a parade by UK soldiers returning from a stint in Iraq.

It undoubtedly does include many honest people who support Israel, however it has also been used by extremist political forces who simply do not have our best interests in mind.

I don’t think that its origins have anything to do with any pro Israel or anti Israel feelings. The hysterical apologists for Islamic excesses are just trying deflection aimed at confusing the less well informed bystander as to the aims of the EDL.

There will be a constant campaign to trow ‘racist mud’ and other filth at them in an attempt to discredit them.

The EDL could also voluntarily ‘out’ any racist scum that they are aware of. Especially from the BNP.

It will only have a future if it succeeds in repelling any ‘labeling’ by lunatic lefties who seem to be quite hysterical about it. (A good sign in my book).

Steven, a parsimonious explanation is the simplest one which explains the phenomenon.

And I am simply adding to the points you make by comparing EDL with Islamist groups. All are extreme in their way, are they not, and are also often the result of pendulum swings of reaction to each other’s rhetoric and actions.

Modernity you say you have proof but then state “circumstantial ” evidence.

I agree that the Guardian jumped on the Jihadi bandwagon and went along with their theory that the EDL are the Jew’s goy thugs.
A perfect antisemitic theory expected from the purveyor of antisemitism which is the Guardian.

I don’t agree that the EDL is using Jews as some front.

They have been bombarded with Nazi accusations and are trying to portray themselves as not Nazi. Inviting Jews, gays and visible minorities openly and publicly to their organization is not a shocking way of trying to do just that.

Having said that, as I said before, Jews in the UK should not join the EDL as Jews. It is an English nationalist movement.

Let alone the fact that Jews being linked to them would lose the moral high ground in the media as so far Jews have been victims of Muslim violence without the reverse.

All it takes is one Jew in the EDL anyway for the antisemites to declare it as a Jewish org. That is how antisemitism works. Wherever there is a Jew, there is a Jewish conspiracy.

The juiciest dream for the Jihadis and their Guardian allies would be to be able to describe UK Jewish interests as “also violent”.

In the mean time, the EDL needs to enact processes and policies to deal with this infiltration as otherwise they will be forever tarred with every video posted by inbred morons using the St George Cross in the background.
That will be a difficult task as it would almost make them a political party, having policies and processes in place to screen members and getting rid of them once caught violating the stated ideology of the EDL which is officially non racist and non fascist.
This may present the EDL with a catch 22 situation as having an official membership policy comparable to a political party will expose them to arrest and prosecution as their identities will be on record.

And the racism recurrent on this blog speaks for itself as a rule – and usually in a tedious fashion.

Let’s clarify a point: all neo-Nazis hate non-whites, and especially Muslim non-whites; they do not all hate Jews, though the hard-line ideologues among them continue to do so; and they express support for Israel’s government because a) it pursues highly chauvinstic policies towards Muslims/Arabs and b) it’s in the habit of killing large numbers of them.

Jews should obviously know better than to join ranks with neo-Nazis. If you do and you get mistaken for one, then it’s your own problem if you have your behinds handed to you by members of the UAF.

Would you mind giving us a few examples of those “highly chauvinistic policies”?

“it’s in the habit of killing large numbers of them. (Muslims/Arabs)”

Not exactly, or to be more precise, not at all.

1. Muslim/Arab casualties in the I/P conflict are mostly the result of Israeli self-defence, usually when terrorists hide behind women and children, so if we are going to speak about “habits”, why don’t we discuss who’s DELIBERATELY killing pregnant women, as it happened a few hours ago near Hebron?

2. “Large numbers”? Even one dead person is too much, but what is “large numbers” for you? Multiply the number of all Muslim/Arab casualties in their endless wars against Israel and you would still not even be close to the number of Muslim dead in Darfur, or the Iran-Iraq war, the Lebanese civil war, the number of people Hafiz Asad killed in a matter of days in Hama in 1982, the number of Kurds killed using Chemical weapons at Halabja, etc..
3. How much do you get for writing this kind of crap in the Guardian or some other Islamofacist-ass licking sorry excuse for newspaper/blog?

richard, richard, you really are off the wall, aren’t you? And you seem to know an awful lot about what neo-Nazis hate….

And what gives you the right to lecture anyone, here or elsewhere?

I note you don’t note the racists who are loony left, (OK they lurve Islamists and hate Jews, but they are no less racist for that) but then many of them write for the Groan and you daren’t criticise dare you?

And, talking of fascism, what are your thoughts about the latest Islamofascist terror attack in Hebron? Are you waiting to twist the story to show that Israel, rather than Hamas which claimed responsibility for the murders, doesn’t want peace? It’d be entirely consistent with the guff you perpetrate.

al-gharqad, good points but rather like casting pearls before the hutton swine. He probably gets peanuts from the Groan because that’s all he’s worth.

Rhutton’s post is a scream. (Why DID you read it, hutton, if you didn’t need to? Are you some sort of masochist?)

The Guardian praised Islamofascist Hamas, RHutton, by publishing an obituary for the animal Nizar Rayyan and about all his “good works.”

I have an idea. I was really interested in Mitnaged’s latest article about cognitive distortions.

hutton is OVERGENERALISING (he’s applying his wonky thinking to all or “many” Jews, and telling us, without supporting evidence, that Jews are in the habit of killing “many” (that “many” again!) Arabs. He’s not giving us supporting evidence either – it had to be provided by al-gharqad – as to why Arabs had been killed, which puts this in the MENTAL FILTER category too.
(gosh, this is fun!)

He’s applying a MENTAL FILTER again – look at the links! I’ll bet he didn’t explore any others which might have given him a wider picture, but he probably doesn’t recognise that he is biased); see also the rubbish above about the Israeli government’s chauvinistic attitudes towards Muslims/Arabs (israel’s Arab Muslim enemies are not chauvinistic at all, are they hutton, particularly not Saudi towards its immigrant workers?)

He’s certainly MAGNIFYING THE NEGATIVES and he’s not giving any positives. He tells us that “plenty” Jews (how many, 2? 10? 20?) “right wing” Jews are racist towards Arabs. (Actually, that could be called EMOTIONAL REASONING too, since it’s a belief of his which he has turned into a fact, but for which he hasn’t given evidence).

I would take a guess that this post is born of EMOTIONAL REASONING since he’s an anti-Jewish racist who has the nerve to call this blog racist. (or is that evidence of paranoid projection?)

Ariadne, I actually took a deep breath and tried to stick with a video from “Lionheart” from the EDL blog. I think he’s barking mad. He mixes his peculiar paranoia with references to England and God. I wonder what Mitnaged would make of him?

If you feel slightly sympathetic towards the EDL, then I would ask you to explain:

1) how you feel when you see their supporters giving Nazi salute?
2) how do you explain the role of the various BNPers in setting up the EDL?
3) how you explain away the soliciting of support for EDL events on the Stormfront message board ?
4) Finally do feel comfortable surrounded by people who have swastikas tattooed on their chests and body ?

They are tracked down on the EDL forums and when found they are “visited”. The EDL is passionate about getting rid of people who do this.

2) how do you explain the role of the various BNPers in setting up the EDL?

The EDL might just be the final nail in the coffin of the BNP. Giving the disaffected a non-racist alternative through which they can protest the very clear negative effects that large numbers of Muslims demanding special treatment are having on neighborhoods all over England and the UK

3) how you explain away the soliciting of support for EDL events on the Stormfront message board ?

Because the people that read this kind of vile sh-t are desperate to bring the EDL down through infiltration because they realise it is the most serious threat to the real Neo Nazis that exists. UAF? Don’t make me laugh.

4) Finally do feel comfortable surrounded by people who have swastikas tattooed on their chests and body ?

You’re referring to a man widely pilloried among EDL as Swas-TIT-a and his videos showing he’s from the Welsh Defence League. He’s not welcome at any WDL or EDL events and if identified, I wouldn’t fancy being in his shoes.

Yup, the EDL will scare the Guardian reading set. They mean to. They are not racists by design. Do you think the NHS has a single racist working for it? Does that make the NHS a racist organisation? Of course not. If you think Islam’s ideology and 1400 year Jihad against all non-believers and the “Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism” is nothing to worry about, don’t join the EDL, plenty of people do worry about it.

I didn’t have to wait long for a typical comment to pop up that explains the relationship between the BNP and EDL.

To sumarise: many in the BNP were never happy with it’s racism. When an alternative appears that tackles the issue of Islam and cultural assimilation of immigrants leaving England with a recognisable English-ness, without being racist, it will destroy the BNP.

Jewish immigrants are very undemanding in the UK and all but the deluded far right know this. Nobody’s ever heard of gangs of violent Jews abducting and raping women or blowing themselves up on the tube. Get real.

You deserve a better response than I can give quickly in comments. I will write up a whole blog post on my findings of the EDL and post it.

Briefly now, I started looking at their forums in March and started posting in July. I spent quite a long time looking at a large number of posts to get a good feel for the type of people there. I looked at Facebook too but it’s unmoderated which means it’s a complete mess and very misleading. The EDL forums are tightly controlled by a number of administrators: they don’t disallow dissent, they just keep it in “the cage”.

I treated this as a full research project and as usual it’s much better to go to the horses mouth and listen than to work with second, third and forth hand sources. I haven’t been to demonstrations, I live in Israel, and before I started looking at the EDL I did know personally a few people from the counter Jihad who attend their events physically.

I am quite open about where I stand on Islam and Jihad: I’ve been working in the counter Jihad world for a fairly long time but of course, I’m a nice Jewish boy who grew up in close proximity to the NF so know exactly who they were and who the BNP are too. Needless to say I have zero time for the lot of them.

I’ve not met either Yaxley-Lennon or Chris Renton or had any direct contact with them. I know people who have and I’m still backing the aims of the EDL but I’m not going to deal in hearsay. I’ll stick to direct interaction.

I’m working on a long article, it will take me a few days as I have a busy life that pays bills. When I’m done I’ll let you know where it is published.

I’ll just say one thing about Tommy Robinson’s use of an alias in this field. I’ve used an alias all the time I’ve criticised Islam. Bat Ye’or used an alias until the New York Times, in a despicable act typical of an organisation that covered up Stalin’s evil, exposed her identity. Ibn Warraq is an alias, Ali Sina is an alias and there are many other brave people who choose to use an alias because Islam instructs Muslims not to tolerate criticism of any sort. All these people are keen not to end up like Theo Van Gogh or Daniel Pearl.

Please, if you have a link to a recorded statement by either of those two you’d like me to listen to I’d be happy to. Like I said, I’m not the EDL PR dept and I’m just an interested observer who agrees with many of their stated aims (even if not all of their actions).

I think there is already racial conflict going on, except its not really racial as it runs along the lines Kaffir vs Muslim which, of course, is not a race issue as there are examples of both from every race on the planet. The conflict is there whether you and the rest of the liberal left like it or not. Pointing out that it exists is only incitement when one of those sides has a hair trigger and completely untamed violent urges.

“Pointing out that it exists is only incitement when one of those sides has a hair trigger and completely untamed violent urges.”

So Brian, as a deep researcher into all things EDL, what do you think the effect of hundreds of young football hooligans, neo-Nazis, BNPers and assorted gullible types, when they make provocative demonstrations in areas where there is a high ethnic make-up?

Do you honestly contend that the EDL want peace? If so, why organise these provocative demonstrations?

And if you’re having difficulty understanding the nature of provocative demonstrations you might want to look up he Skokie march by neo-Nazis and have a think, why they wanted to march there?

I am Roberta. Head of the EDL Jewish Division.
And I am asking you to please amend this article to say the truth and not to fall into the Leftist Media trap.
I truly thought you were better than that!

The EDL are not Nazis, nor Fascists, nor Racist, nor BNP!!! And you know that because we have met and we have had a long talk about it.
It’s not right that you allow this article here because as the head of the Jewish Division, and as an Israeli and Zionist myself, I am extremely offended by the way you have referred to us as neo-Nazis.

We have 800+ supporters in our Jewish Division, we have the support of the Zion Fighters in Israel, we have the support of the European head of Free Media, and many other organizations, and therefore it is not correct to be baited by the corrupted leftist media and call us fascists.

In fact you are not only being cruel in your attempts to demonize us, but you are doing exactly what the International Media does to Israel, demonize them!

Tommy Robinson has NO links with the BNP. Neither do I. We do NOT support the BNP, we do NOT support fascism. We do NOT support Nazism. We do NOT support the corrupted media.
We are just PATRIOTIC people, who love our country, and will fight to keep it OUR country!!

And you also know very well that we SUPPORT ISRAEL, AND ZIONISM, because a huge part of our group is JEWISH and ZIONIST!!

Please do not succumb to MEDIA LIES!! That is unacceptable!
The Zionist Federation will do well in getting their act together. WE DO fight in the SAME frontline and for the SAME goals.

Shame on CiF watch to do to the EDL what the Guardian is doing to Jews and Usrael. You discuss the EDL by the same fallacious logic that the Guardian discusses Israel. Brian and Roberta said better than I ever could and I can only express my support to what they wrote.