Originally posted by HDTV-Tivo That really sucks because I have two HDTVs that only have component inputs. This means that under many circumstances I simply will not be able to have the picture quality that I was promised when I bought these TVs. That really pisses me off. From this point onward, I have no objections whatsoever for people who want to circumvent things like macrovision, because now I am in their shoes.

Standalone HDTivo users will really get screwed, because they wont be allowed to record high definition content period in these situations, whereas directivo users will at least be able to do that.

I will look forward to having the fun of hacking the tivo in such a way as to force the component outputs to always give you the best resolution possible.

Well keep in mind...

1) This is a technical capability; no commercial broadcaster/cable station is actively utilizing it and for the reasons you stated it's going to be rather controversial once one does. And there is another flag in broadcast ATSC streams to control re-recording and timeshifting rights, too... again, a technical capability with no one yet actively restricting anything...

2) There will never be a standalone HDTiVo that encodes analog signals. Never say never, right? Well, there's no existing chipset to do HD realtime mpeg2 encoding that could be used in an affordable standalone. Think many thousands of dollars using existing technology. Any standalone HDTiVo will be limited to OTA ATSC signals which would be received digitally, and to SD recording for anything it has to encode.

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Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish.

Originally posted by smak Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish.

Probably not, since program information comes via satellite, I'd suspect the receiver would be not much more than a standard OTA receiver without the dish hooked up and a subscription. I doubt the TiVo functionality would work, at least.

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The so-called "broadcast flag" has the vaguely worded purpose of keeping copyrighted programming from being distributed all over the Internet. It is not intended to limit recording, timeshifting, or distributing it within the home, all of which are allowed by copyright law and the FCC has no authority to touch that. Also, as much as the MPAA would want to have the broadcast flag close the "analog hole", the FCC did not agree to close it.

Originally posted by skellener So does this mean no component video out?

Steve

Believe it or not, HD TiVos WILL be compatible with the 96% of HDTV sets out there that only have Component inputs.

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Originally posted by dswallow In the real world, what does this mean? No broadcaster or cable channel has used the flags yet, except for some PPV or other channels I believe it's been used on just for equipment testing purposes.

The FCC basically told the broadcast industry that if they want the FCC's wrath, go ahead and try to copy-protect non-premium content.

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Here's a photo of the prototype that DirecTV was demoing at CES 2003. Realize that they put the Component outputs where 1 set of RCA outputs were. I doubt this represents the layout the final unit will have. I will probably grow to regret posting this picture.

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jdk said:Plus, I'd suggest adding a short section describing (to the best of our ability at this point) the operation of the HD Dtivo - mentioning that it is expected to release with version 3.X of software, meaning no HMO, etc...

We don't know any of this yet.

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Originally posted by smak Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish.

-smak-

Absolutely not.

These are OTA 8VSB digital tuners.

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Originally posted by dswallow 1) This is a technical capability; no commercial broadcaster/cable station is actively utilizing it and for the reasons you stated it's going to be rather controversial once one does. And there is another flag in broadcast ATSC streams to control re-recording and timeshifting rights, too... again, a technical capability with no one yet actively restricting anything...

That brings up a question. Would tivo record the hdtv stream in high resolution and then downconvert it during playback? Or would it record it in low resolution if only an analog connection was enabled while the flag was present in the stream?

And FWIW, downconverting the signal would require expensive mpeg reencoding hardware, just because of this flag.

Originally posted by Heinrichs That brings up a question. Would tivo record the hdtv stream in high resolution and then downconvert it during playback? Or would it record it in low resolution if only an analog connection was enabled while the flag was present in the stream?

And FWIW, downconverting the signal would require expensive mpeg reencoding hardware, just because of this flag.

Downconverting for display is pretty simple; all current HD receivers do this, actually. The HD TiVo won't have the ability to encode MPEG2 in any fashion; it can only record the datastream it tunes to, be it OTA DTV or DirecTV SD or HD. But even an HD program recorded can be displayed on SD monitors because downconverting for display, as mentioned before, is simple and easily done.

It'll record what you tell it to, and display it on all outputs in a format appropriate for that output (and taking into consideration the front panel setting for the digital/component output format).

(And upconverting for display is no big deal either; all current HD receivers can do this too)

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A quick question: How would the HDTiVo differentiate between recording an HD program or its analog counterpart? If I am running low on drive space, could I tell it to record the West Wing in standard def tonight, rather than HD? Will season passes be format specific?

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After thinking about it, you would probably put in two season passes, with the digital station just above the analog. The 28 day rule would keep both from recording, and if there isn't enough space, it would automatically revert to the analog channel.

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Your choice; the 28-day rule applies. Create a season pass on the HD channel and a season pass on the SD channel. Prioritize the HD season pass first, then the SD one, if there's not enough space to record the HD program (and "not enough space" means there's nothing that could be automatically deleted at that time), then it wouldn't record, and if there were enough space for the SD version, it would record.

Season passes being channel-specific makes this easy.

Now for wishlists, it'd be different. One would expect a new option would be provided on wishlists with regard to HD vs. SD program preferences, and I think that was alluded to by someone allegedly with first-hand knowledge of it.

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Originally posted by feldon23 I suppose you can set up Season Passes for whichever channel you want, whether it's the analog or digital version.

I wonder how they're going to deal with the total lack of guide data for local digital channels. Dish hasn't come up with a solution.

I do not understand this "total lack of guide data" argument. I have full guide data for every HD channel in the program guide on my DirecTV HD receiver. That includes all NYC and Philadelphia stations.

I suppose it may be referring to subchannels; except that in NYC the Fox station is broadcasting the UPN station on a subchannel and there's guide data for that. So again I do not understand this argument.

This has been the case since March, at least, as that's when I got my receiver. I'm sure it's been the case for far longer, though.

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But they're not cheap... that one I've seen around for $700 (it lists for $895).

I've seen cheaper ones, but they're rated only for 480p video. There could be other such devices though that would do what you need and be less expensive; even Mitsubishi may have something specifically for your television.

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I don't see this addressed here yet...maybe it's too obvious to some, but you basically cannot find a HDTV monitor that can actually display HD--you have to buy a $300+ HDTV receiver in addition. Does this TiVo include that hardware inside it, or do you still need the stupid extra $300 box?

If the DirecTiVo includes it, that mitigates the $900 price to some extent.

Originally posted by rcwalters I don't see this addressed here yet...maybe it's too obvious to some, but you basically cannot find a HDTV monitor that can actually display HD--you have to buy a $300+ HDTV receiver in addition. Does this TiVo include that hardware inside it, or do you still need the stupid extra $300 box?

If the DirecTiVo includes it, that mitigates the $900 price to some extent.

The HDTiVo is the receiver and will connect to your HD monitor directly via HDMI, DVI or component inputs. The "receiver" you refer to is the same sort of thing... but just for over-the-air reception, and isn't necessary if you have a different HD source like the HDTiVo, or another HD satellite receiver, or HD cable box.

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But they're not cheap... that one I've seen around for $700 (it lists for $895).

I've seen cheaper ones, but they're rated only for 480p video. There could be other such devices though that would do what you need and be less expensive; even Mitsubishi may have something specifically for your television.

Mits has a promise module but it is 1000.00 and I'm not sure if it adds DVI. I know it adds firewire and a tuner. This could be a very expensive proposition.

Can the HDTiVo record SD locals? It would need to encode the analog signal from the ATSC tuner (even though it would be NTSC). Also, can your TV use a VGA input? Could you adapt the DVI to VGA? I dunno. I'm a bit confused about interfaces that don't appear on pcs.

Originally posted by Bigg Can the HDTiVo record SD locals? It would need to encode the analog signal from the ATSC tuner (even though it would be NTSC). Also, can your TV use a VGA input? Could you adapt the DVI to VGA? I dunno. I'm a bit confused about interfaces that don't appear on pcs.

The HDTiVo will not be able to encode anything; so it cannot record OTA local analog signals -- only those delivered over satellite or OTA digital signals.

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That sucks. So then is all of say CBS digital, or only CSI and other HD shows? Is the news 480i digital? If some is digital and some not, then some shows on a channel could be recorded, and some not. That really sucks.

Originally posted by Bigg That sucks. So then is all of say CBS digital, or only CSI and other HD shows? Is the news 480i digital? If some is digital and some not, then some shows on a channel could be recorded, and some not. That really sucks.

You're not grasping this... Everything broadcast on a digital station is digital -- meaning it's transmitted as MPEG2 encoded data. This broadcast format is called ATSC. The old analog broadcast stations are NTSC format. Anything coming over an ATSC channel is recordable. It doesn't matter what resolution it's broadcast in; it's still digital and MPEG2-encoded.

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If by "SD locals" you mean an ATSC signal that is SDTV instead of HDTV, for example a TV station that is too cheap to do HDTV so they are just simulcasting their analog signal using 480i, then I believe the answer should be "yes".

The HDTiVo is just going to spool the digital stream, or the relevant portion of it, as-is to the hard disk, so it shouldn't care what the format is until it's time to play it. And if the HDTiVo can play HDTV, then it surely has more than enough horsepower to play SDTV. I'm not aware of any HDTV receiver that is so borked that it can't handle SDTV. For that matter, ATSC compliance requires the ability to decode and display all 36 variants of the ATSC formats. DirecTV HDTiVo has no choice but to do it because all of the non-HD channels on DirecTV are effectively SDTV channels, and I don't see why they would handle DirecTV's SDTV channels but not be able to handle OTA ATSC SDTV.

Since Fox isn't doing HDTV yet, I wouldn't want to be the one who would have to tell Rupert that his DirecTV HDTiVo units can't record Fox SDTV.

Relax. HDTiVo should be able to record all OTA digital signals regardless of the resolution.