Wrong. If you have the skills the rifles are available. Go buy yourself a Savage 12 F/TR in .308 and see for yourself. Or just read the web page I linked to and quoted in my last post in this thread. Did you see that the top 4 finishers in one of the top F/TR competitions in the world were all shooting stock Savage rifles and beating custom built rifles costing 3X as much? They shoot from 800 yards to 1000 yards. I'd say that's pretty good evidence that off the shelf rifles can do 1000 yards well.

I don't want to keep repeating myself but the plain fact is you can shoot 1000 yards with a stock rifle. In fact there are a lot of stock rifles that will do it.

Wrong. If you have the skills the rifles are available. Go buy yourself a Savage 12 F/TR in .308 and see for yourself. Or just read the web page I linked to and quoted in my last post in this thread. Did you see that the top 4 finishers in one of the top F/TR competitions in the world were all shooting stock Savage rifles and beating custom built rifles costing 3X as much? They shoot from 800 yards to 1000 yards. I'd say that's pretty good evidence that off the shelf rifles can do 1000 yards well.

I don't want to keep repeating myself but the plain fact is you can shoot 1000 yards with a stock rifle. In fact there are a lot of stock rifles that will do it.

Well I was including there fast street cars as well. The last fast car I got to drive was over $100,000.00. The 200+mph car I've been contemplating now costs alot as well.

O.K. some stock rifles will shoot 1000 yards well but not too many and do they last long with that accuracy. Also who wants a front engine Camaro when they can have a mid engine Ferrarri. Especially if they have had too many Camaro's already.

Just an analogy here.

__________________A good piece of glass is like a fine piece of ass. There is no known substitute known to man, and neither are cheap.

Wrong. If you have the skills the rifles are available. Go buy yourself a Savage 12 F/TR in .308 and see for yourself. Or just read the web page I linked to and quoted in my last post in this thread. Did you see that the top 4 finishers in one of the top F/TR competitions in the world were all shooting stock Savage rifles and beating custom built rifles costing 3X as much? They shoot from 800 yards to 1000 yards. I'd say that's pretty good evidence that off the shelf rifles can do 1000 yards well.

I don't want to keep repeating myself but the plain fact is you can shoot 1000 yards with a stock rifle. In fact there are a lot of stock rifles that will do it.

you really believe they are shooting stock rifles at a 1000 yards? no one is going to pull a new gun out the box, slap a scope on it, then go out and shoot accurately at a 1000 yards. despite what you read or see on some website, those rifles are modified and tuned and have very skilled shooter behind them. i would have to see with my own eyes, firsthand to believe such a thing. and by all accounts, i truly believe the savage rifles to be very accurate rifles off the shelf, but out of the box and 1000 yards?

you really believe they are shooting stock rifles at a 1000 yards? no one is going to pull a new gun out the box, slap a scope on it, then go out and shoot accurately at a 1000 yards. despite what you read or see on some website, those rifles are modified and tuned and have very skilled shooter behind them. i would have to see with my own eyes, firsthand to believe such a thing. and by all accounts, i truly believe the savage rifles to be very accurate rifles off the shelf, but out of the box and 1000 yards?

Sorry friend but you're wrong. That's exactly what they do. I bought a 12 LRPV in .223, which is the same rifle as the F/TR but with a better stock and a 4" shorter barrel. I had never shot more than about 300 yards in my life and I hadn't done that often. There just aren't any places to do that in my area. Within a couple of months I was shooting 2" groups at a quarter of a mile and I'm talking shooting about 300 rounds to get that accurate (with off the shelf ammo) and that was mostly about finding the right ammo. If I can shoot that rifle a quarter of a mile in that time imagine what an experienced shooter can do with a .308 Savage. They DO use stock rifles. They have said it many times. I've talked to people who have been to the shoots and they say they do it.

If they were lying about this it would come out and they would lose all credibility. No company is that stupid. They are doing exactly what they say they're doing. People all over the net believe it. Just check. Here's one web page on the site of a very well known person in the shooting industry. You'll see they believe Savage is using "out of the box" rifles for those shoots. The exact quote on this issue is, "I should add that Team Savage shoots the .308 caliber Savage Model 12 F-TR (out of the box) at national and international competitions and they do very, very well." This is from a site well known not to sell out their opinion for the sake of advertising dollars. They take no advertising dollars from gun companies in fact.

Just for the record I'll include one more quote from Shooting Illustrated where they say, "Can you really compete with the factory Model 12 F Class? The level of accuracy I attained, coupled with Team Savage’s 11 national records and the variety of award-winning accomplishments from the Model 12 F/TR, more than prove the rifle’s capability."

Sorry friend but you're wrong. That's exactly what they do. I bought a 12 LRPV in .223, which is the same rifle as the F/TR but with a better stock and a 4" shorter barrel. I had never shot more than about 300 yards in my life and I hadn't done that often. There just aren't any places to do that in my area. Within a couple of months I was shooting 2" groups at a quarter of a mile and I'm talking shooting about 300 rounds to get that accurate (with off the shelf ammo) and that was mostly about finding the right ammo. ~snip~

Jeff, can I ask what brand and load of ammo did you use to develop your 2" groups? Also, what was the distance you were shooting? A quarter mile is about 440 yards, but above you state there aren't any places in your area to shoot beyond 300 yards. Just want to clarify if your 2" group was 300 yards or 400 yards, or maybe 440 yard, as you said above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff56

~snip~ I don't want to keep repeating myself but the plain fact is you can shoot 1000 yards with a stock rifle. In fact there are a lot of stock rifles that will do it.

Jeff....can you list the brand and model for "a lot of stock rifles", I'm always in the market for long range rifles.....Thanks.

Jeff, can I ask what brand and load of ammo did you use to develop your 2" groups? Also, what was the distance you were shooting? A quarter mile is about 440 yards, but above you state there aren't any places in your area to shoot beyond 300 yards. Just want to clarify if your 2" group was 300 yards or 400 yards, or maybe 440 yard, as you said above.

Jeff....can you list the brand and model for "a lot of stock rifles", I'm always in the market for long range rifles.....Thanks.

.

Like I said, depends on what you consider accurate. but i will throw a few out there, Savage, pretty much any savage. But particularly, the model 10's (certain model 10's and 11's see "long range hunter" and "law enforcement series") and 11s and 12s (and 16s obviously). TC icons ( the ones that aren't the Icon are garunteed better than 1 moa). Sako trg42 or trg22() Winchester model 70, some remmington 700's (don't waste your money).

Just to list a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by axxe55

okay let's put this into perspective based on what you stated. i can go to wal-mart and buy an off the shelf rifle that is capable of 6-8" group at 1000 yrds? or buy the T/C Icon Warlord for $3500 that is capable of 4-5" groups at 1000 yards? so if i can go to wal-mart and spend, say, $500 on an off the shelf rifle, why spend $3000 more to only gain 2-3" smaller group? and you really think that an off the shelf rifle bought at some chain store is capable of a 6-8" group at 1000 yrds? not likely. and even if possible, how can T/C justify the other $3000 for the rifle? and we haven't even put a scope on it yet!

Because believe it or not 2-3" inches at 1000 yards is a pretty big difference, The icon also has a lot of creature comfort features that savages lack, like very very nice stocks, extremely smooth actions, etc.... Also, to quantify what I mean by "what you consider accurate" The world record is 2.835 inchs at 1000 yards. Which is way beyond what any person would ever need a rifle to do.

Finally, off the shelf rifles don't only cost 500 bucks. Where I work we carry rifles into the several thousands... but those aren't "off the shelf" either, I would consider ~1000 or less to be "off the shelf". Unless you are in with the manufacturer to get good deals, you are not gonna get a 500 dollar rifle to shoot as good as I am talking about. But a 1000 dollar rifle, that is a different story.

__________________God created men. John Moses Browning made them equal.

Jeff, can I ask what brand and load of ammo did you use to develop your 2" groups? Also, what was the distance you were shooting? A quarter mile is about 440 yards, but above you state there aren't any places in your area to shoot beyond 300 yards. Just want to clarify if your 2" group was 300 yards or 400 yards, or maybe 440 yard, as you said above.

I had to join a gun club to find any place at all that has a range longer than 300 yards. The reason I shot 300 yards was there is a particular way to shoot that distance on my farm. I actually meant to type "many" instead of any in the sentence about shooting farther than 300 yards. The few places there are to do it are privately owned and they come with their own set of hazards like shooting in an area that isn't exactly safe. I could climb up on a hill and shoot 3000 yards if I didn't mind shooting into the Ohio River but of course a ricochet is always possible and there are people living all along that river.

I settled on using Black Hills ammo from 68 gr. to 75 gr.. I used the reloaded stuff most of the time because it works just as well and costs less. I went through about 20 different brands and weights of ammo to get to that ammo as being best for my rifle. It's a popular type of ammo and I tried it early on but in 52 gr. form and that didn't work well at all.

Cory did a good job covering the rifles that should be able to do 1000 yards accurately. Of course it depends on what you want to call accurate. But the 12 series Savages were built specifically to shoot long distances. I found a good deal on a used 12 LRPV in .223 so I bought it. I haven't been disappointed. It's no hunting rifle. I use a Savage 110 for that. For me it's basically just a long range plinker although I plan on shooting some competitions at the range if they ever get their act together. It's really a long drive for me to that range so I would have to spend more time practicing if I ever decide to get started into competitions.

The reason I said I can shoot 2" groups is I use chalk targets that explode essentially when you hit them with a centerfire rifle. It makes it easy to see that you're hitting them at a distance like 440 yards. I have hit as many as 6 or 7 in a row with my LRPV. I know that's not world shaking but remember I'm pretty new to shooting at that distance. I've put more time into it now than when I first learned how well the Savage will shoot. I don't doubt it could do better if I learned to roll my own but I'm pretty old and it's going to take a lot of reloads to pay for any reloading equipment. Plus it takes several years of experience to get to where you can make a big difference by doing your own reloads. I don't expect to die anytime or anything but I have health issues that will no doubt limit my shooting in a few years. I'm ok with that. I can shoot rimfires when it comes to that point. I do that far more already.

Savage, Tikka, Sako, T/C, Weatherby, CZ, Howa, Winchester, Remington and several other companies make rifles that will shoot pretty accurate at 1000 yards. Accuracy International is one that comes to mind. I don't mean to leave out someone's favorite rifle here because the truth is if you put a good enough barrel on an action you can get 1000 yard accuracy out of it. A good barrel that is floated and doesn't flex too much, a good trigger that isn't so hard to pull it affects your shot, and a scope that will let you see where you're aiming are about the only essentials to great shooting. Some will do better than others IMO. I tend to base my opinion on what works best on the evidence I've seen of how those rifles have performed in competitions. And that's where Savage has stood out. Not only have they won many major championships but they have also set a bunch of records for 1000 yard shooting and they are competing against custom built rifles too. Team Savage came together because one guy showed up and shot with a stock Savage and won with it suddenly there were others trying the same thing with similar results. Then they formed a team of guys that were all using stock Savage rifles. That's when Savage got interested in sponsoring them.

I bought my Savage because of what I saw they were doing with those rifles. I actually was about to buy an F/TR when I found the LRPV. The guys at the Savage board will tell you that is the best rifle Savage makes. I like mine a lot but I still wish I would have bought a .308. But with Savage I can change the caliber when I wear out this barrel. That's one of the great things about a Savage. And there are many great things about Savage. I have had one Savage (actually a Stevens) for about 30 years and it was in my family for 15 years before that. It has always shot great (it's a single shot .22) so I knew Savage built good stuff. I bought the 110 and discovered it was also great. I bought a MkII and I was amazed at how good they are. Then I bought the LRPV and it has blown me away. I've liked them for decades but this rifle is just above and beyond what it should be for the price. Savage took the advice of the people turning their rifles into custom rifles and incorporated all the good changes into their target and varmint rifles. And the results are exceptional. I like other rifles too but to me Savage is hard to beat in a stock rifle. Until I see other rifles winning competitions and setting records with stock rifles I will think Savage is one of the best stock rifles you can buy.

BTW I don't remember ever saying you could spend $500 on a Walmart rifle and shoot accurately at 1000 yards. My 12 LRPV is an $1100 rifle new if not more. The F/TR I was going to buy was going to cost me about $1250. Savage makes some $400 rifles. I don't think they will shoot 1000 yards well. My 12 will shoot .5" groups at 100 yards or better. But even an Axis will shoot under 1" at 100 yards. Still that's double the size of the 12 LRPV. When you get out to 1000 yards that will make a BIG difference and the truth is the Axis will probably shoot about 3X the group size of the 12 LRPV.

well cory2 and jeff56, just to understand things correctly, the $5000-6000 i'm spending on building an accurate long range rifle is wasted money? i can go and buy a $1100 savage and get it done then? and all the benchrest shooters who spend twice that on a rifle are wasting their money too? you gentlemen are believing too much advertising bull@#&% IMO. i am not saying that there are not accurate and very accurate rifles that can be bought. do either of you really comprehend what it takes to shoot 1000 yards? it's just under 0.6 of a mile. get in your car and mark off 0.6 of a mile and this will give you a visual reference of shooting at a 1000 yards. then put up a target and see if you can even see that target. and you expect me to believe that a factory off the shelf rifle is going to hit that target accurately with factory ammo? well you quote any website, any manufacturer or any source you want, until i see it with my own eyes and look over the rifle, there is no way you are going to convince me of that.

well cory2 and jeff56, just to understand things correctly, the $5000-6000 i'm spending on building an accurate long range rifle is wasted money? i can go and buy a $1100 savage and get it done then? and all the benchrest shooters who spend twice that on a rifle are wasting their money too? you gentlemen are believing too much advertising bull@#&% IMO. i am not saying that there are not accurate and very accurate rifles that can be bought. do either of you really comprehend what it takes to shoot 1000 yards? it's just under 0.6 of a mile. get in your car and mark off 0.6 of a mile and this will give you a visual reference of shooting at a 1000 yards. then put up a target and see if you can even see that target. and you expect me to believe that a factory off the shelf rifle is going to hit that target accurately with factory ammo? well you quote any website, any manufacturer or any source you want, until i see it with my own eyes and look over the rifle, there is no way you are going to convince me of that.

well you can believe whatever you want to. If you really are spending that kind of money to build a rifle and you go compete in F-open, you will have plenty of opportunity to see for your self the accuracy of the stock savages. Also, why do you keep mentioning reloaded ammunition like that is some how something only custom made rifles can fire. Any rifle can fire handloads. So I fail to see why you mention them.

__________________God created men. John Moses Browning made them equal.