Also if you're running GoSup i'm curious which pet you're prefering. I've been pondering the shivvy due to the semi-ranged nature and my experience with pets swapping targets too much (also the eyeball annoys me :P).

Imperial Vizier Zor'lok at 20% or lower? Check.
Shadowpriest currently under mind control? Check.
Havoc off cooldown and three burning embers ready? Check.
Hilarious friendly kill performed by the Warlock? Check.

Also if you're running GoSup i'm curious which pet you're prefering. I've been pondering the shivvy due to the semi-ranged nature and my experience with pets swapping targets too much (also the eyeball annoys me :P).

If I read correctly, he was playing as GoSup, so 200k seems about right, though, still kind of lame considering I've seen well over a million before as GoSac, but highest average crits with GoSac + raid buffs + pot + flask + 300 int food was around 800k.

I'm playing Destro with GoSup/Haste on Mageara 25H, I must admit it is pretty funny to have so much haste (gone from 12% buffed to 25% ).

I remember that going OOM faster with a hastebuild was actually a thing in 5.0, a rather annoying one at that, how is this in 5.2?

Originally Posted by Undercroft

ouch, 200k sounds kinda low-ish
Is that with GoSup or GoSac?

Also if you're running GoSup i'm curious which pet you're prefering. I've been pondering the shivvy due to the semi-ranged nature and my experience with pets swapping targets too much (also the eyeball annoys me :P).

He's running with a build with more Haste, combined with the GoSup, probably drops the burst on Chaos Bolt and Shadowburn a lot.

I remember that going OOM faster with a hastebuild was actually a thing in 5.0, a rather annoying one at that, how is this in 5.2?

I haven't got any mana problem, I think I could even cast RoF a lot, and embers just seemed to build VERY fast with 7k Haste and 5k Crit. But it might have to do with the encounter itself too, there are some AoE or no-cast phases on Megaera.

I hope it's ok if I use this post to discuss the Destruction APL in Simcraft Brulsak? (as the thread is using the APL in order to try to find out which Grimoire to take next patch)
The latest simcraft build had an update to the different APLs for each spec included for the new T15H profile. I tried using that new destruction APL with the simc-510-10 version for the live server and got a dps decrease (mainly because the line to cast CB if we are low on mana was removed and as suchthe sim is now witing from time to time doing nothing until mana is back). So assuming we have enough manareg that this does not happen next tier at the start of the tier we will have ~T14H Gear and as such I will use the old APL as a starting point for optimization.
Since last week I was trying to improve the Destruction APL (thought Destruction will be the easiest to improve). As I don't have that much time because of work at the moment I was not able to finish and still have a few problems which I could not solve atm. So I decided to post in the hope that somebody will be interested to improve the APL to make a better use of our ressources and as a consequence give us a more realistic picture.
All of my sims were done using the T14H profiles in the simc-510-10 version with the following options: 10k Iterations, World Lag Low, 450sec, 20% Variation, Patchwerk Fight, Player Skill Elite.
This does not include the changes on the ptr, but these changes should have no influence on ressource management. You still want to use the ressources when they have maximum effect (so mostly during procs).

Not SB is only used if either Dark Soul is up, Embers are about to be capped, the enemy is about to die. The second parts calculated the average amount of embers that will be generated until the next DS is ready. This is given as a result from simcraft under resources. The normal profile gives 0.08 embers per second. That means if we are going to have an overflow of embers or under 50% mana and a proc is up (excluded essence of terror as SB does not benefit from the haste proc) then use SB.
The last part is to use it if we are about to go oom. The 50% mana option is included because otherwise most SBs would be used because of low mana during times without procs.

This change results in a 30 dps increase. The DPET from SB increases but most of the SBs are used due to low mana.

This means: Use CB only if you have less than 3 stacks of backdraft. Use CB if you are about to cap embers or Dark Soul is active or Skull Banner is active and you have less than 75% mana (to avoid mana capping). The havoc part is only for multitargets and I'm going to focus on singletarget for the moment.

This now reads as: Use CB only if you have less than 3 stacks of backdraft. Use CB if you are about to cap embers ot if Dark Soul is up. Then once again we check if we are about to cap embers until the next DS is ready and if yes use these additional CBs if either: Skull Banner or Relic of Yulon or Synapse Springs or Jade Spirit is up and we have less than 75% mana.

So logically I would assume we get a dps increase as we should not cast our CBs now if we are about to cap but when procs are up and still go into DS with 3-4 embers. But this change gives a 330 dps loss.
I didn’t have enough time to analyze this in depth yet. With this change we get a DPET decrease for CB (~3,5k) and RoF (~2,5k), but a DPET increase for incinerate (~700). I have no idea how this can happen yet. Looking at the APL list and the Sample Sequence we see that we use less CBs only for mana. That would be the following line:

Code:

chaos_bolt,if=mana.pct<20

The amount of CBs used increases by an average of 0.7 but the number of SBs decreases by 0.6
This is probably because we use an ember shortly before reaching 20%. (Could probably be avoided by using some clever conditional to pool embers shortly before execute range) But it is no explanation how the DPET of CB can drop as we should be using it now during proccs instead of just when we are about to cap or go oom.
This is where I’m stuck atm. IF somebody has an idea why the DPET increases or some other kind of improvement idea please share.

Thanks for your PM on EJ. What I've found in testing this so far is that the sim itself seems to be wrong. It shows a mana leak in our single target rotation that I can't (often) duplicate on live, so it runs OOM quite a bit (in my testing up to about 20 seconds spent waiting . . . lots of dps lost). Pooling Shadowburns exacerbates this loss, thus the decreased DPS even though Shadowburns DPET goes up.

You can force the profile to add mana to simulate not running out of mana by using this line:

Code:

actions+=/restore_mana,mana=5000

Anytime the profile is OOM, it will automatically (with no GCD) restore that amount of mana until it can cast something. This results is a big DPS boost for the profile (about 6k using the 5.1 sim).

My wife got home just when I was going to test out the changes above (which as I said in my post on EJ I'm also working on), so I can't say if it's a DPS increase. It **SHOULD** be as long as the profile doesn't OOM, which is currently the problem (again, not something that I have reliably duplicated on live so I think it's a SimC issue).

Does this mean that Destro is much closer to the other two specs than previously thought (due to simc mana issues which are not duplicated on live)?

Yes. In fact, if you take into account the fact that the Sim doesn't spend embers intelligently outside of DS/Skull Banner (something we're trying to fix), my guess is that you'd come up with another 2-6K DPS and that would put Destro on top. Of course the other profiles also have inefficiencies like this, but my guess is that Destro's is the biggest because of the huge damage chunks for SB and CB that we're talking about.

Yes. In fact, if you take into account the fact that the Sim doesn't spend embers intelligently outside of DS/Skull Banner (something we're trying to fix), my guess is that you'd come up with another 2-6K DPS and that would put Destro on top. Of course the other profiles also have inefficiencies like this, but my guess is that Destro's is the biggest because of the huge damage chunks for SB and CB that we're talking about.

More testing, more simming, etc before final answers.

Thanks so much. I love destro, and I really hope I can stick with it through 5.2

Thanks for your PM on EJ. What I've found in testing this so far is that the sim itself seems to be wrong. It shows a mana leak in our single target rotation that I can't (often) duplicate on live, so it runs OOM quite a bit (in my testing up to about 20 seconds spent waiting . . . lots of dps lost). Pooling Shadowburns exacerbates this loss, thus the decreased DPS even though Shadowburns DPET goes up.

You can force the profile to add mana to simulate not running out of mana by using this line:

Code:

actions+=/restore_mana,mana=5000

Anytime the profile is OOM, it will automatically (with no GCD) restore that amount of mana until it can cast something. This results is a big DPS boost for the profile (about 6k using the 5.1 sim).

My wife got home just when I was going to test out the changes above (which as I said in my post on EJ I'm also working on), so I can't say if it's a DPS increase. It **SHOULD** be as long as the profile doesn't OOM, which is currently the problem (again, not something that I have reliably duplicated on live so I think it's a SimC issue).

Thank you for the answer =)
I checked my lock on live to compare the manareg values with the ones in the sim.
At Affi or Demo spec I have 17400 MP5
With Destro Specc I have the following values:Haste MP5
16,51% 126705
9,69% 119289
0% 108750

I ran a few sims (using the new simc10-12 release Live version) while disabling bloodlust and essence of terror so that we have the same haste value during the fight and I got the following results (found at Resource RPS Gain for Mana):
Haste MP1 MP5 MP5 according to formula
5,81% 23830.29 119151.45 115068
11,10% 25012.33 125061.65 120821
16,51% 26215.10 131075.5 126705

According to that the manareg in the sim is even higher than it should be.
Next I checked the manacosts of the spells by checking the details of the used abilities in the output.

When I add the Smart SB & Smart CB I get in comparison to the normal profile that simmed with 118.8k DPS for me no waiting time (thanks to the manareg), SB DPET +5k, CB DPET -12k, immolate DPET -30k, incinerate DPET -5k, RoF DPET -3k

I must say I have again no idea how this can be but as it is close to midnight in my country I'm also not in the best condition for analysis anymore >.>

Thanks for the correction. I was just putting together what I saw in an empirical formula. I was lucky as the one I wrote turns out to give the same result because 300000*0.05*7.25 = 17400*6.25 or
300000*0.05 = 15000
15000*7.25 = 108750
and 17400*6.25 = 108750

They have buffed incinerate and conflagrate to compensate GoSac nerf, but they forgot to buff felflame and shadowburn too, then we will be weaker next season in general.
If you think about it, will see that we were actually nerfed without real compensation, contrary to what they did with warriors, mages, hunters, rogues, monks, etc ... on one hand they have nerfed these classes and other buffed in some points to help.

So redid the sims after the weekend and now I'm getting a small dps increase when I include the smart CB and Smart SB line but only about 500 DPS. Maybe it was just to late and I did some kind of error on Friday. Would be great if somebody could control that just to make sure that I didn't get something wrong again.