You people in the midwest have never had to fight the anti's like we have here in the west coast.

And thank God for that, but I understand your point. These things tend to close in on us from the coasts.

I too am a big advocate of landowner rights and a free market economy. As long as enclosures are not causing the spread of CWD or hurting conservation in general, I can tolerate them.

I'm just saying that in your efforts to keep hunters united, you should not come out swinging whenever you hear one step out of line. Sometimes we just come here to think out loud. Shhh...don't tell the antis.

I have to come out swinging loosing hound hunting for bear, bobcat, and cougar hear in Washington hurt me very much, it also taught me about the new age hunter mentality, the if 'I' dont do it then it shouldn't be done. Hunters fell for the anti's video lie's, they paid a poacher in Oregon to film a hunt with dogs in were he shoots and wounds a cougar and lets his dogs fight it in the crick. I could tell by watching it it was fake, but that started a frenzy of holier than ye in the hunting world to join with the anti's and succesfully ban hound hunting. Now believe it or not we have a cougar and bear problem. In Michigan the anti's convinced the public that shooting a defensless dove was wrong, allot of hunters agreed. I read one letter to the editor were a fellow hunter said he never see's em much, so there must be a shortage no scientific data to back it, like the state will let ya hunt em when they are endangerd. If by any means they shut down these operations it will make the anti's stronger and they will claim victory..

Ya gotta watch out for those black ops helecopters too. They`re watching you all the time, ya know.

You people in the midwest have never had to fight the anti's like we have here in the west coast.

And thank God for that, but I understand your point. These things tend to close in on us from the coasts.

I too am a big advocate of landowner rights and a free market economy. As long as enclosures are not causing the spread of CWD or hurting conservation in general, I can tolerate them.

I'm just saying that in your efforts to keep hunters united, you should not come out swinging whenever you hear one step out of line. Sometimes we just come here to think out loud. Shhh...don't tell the antis.

I have to come out swinging loosing hound hunting for bear, bobcat, and cougar hear in Washington hurt me very much, it also taught me about the new age hunter mentality, the if 'I' dont do it then it shouldn't be done. Hunters fell for the anti's video lie's, they paid a poacher in Oregon to film a hunt with dogs in were he shoots and wounds a cougar and lets his dogs fight it in the crick. I could tell by watching it it was fake, but that started a frenzy of holier than ye in the hunting world to join with the anti's and succesfully ban hound hunting. Now believe it or not we have a cougar and bear problem. In Michigan the anti's convinced the public that shooting a defensless dove was wrong, allot of hunters agreed. I read one letter to the editor were a fellow hunter said he never see's em much, so there must be a shortage no scientific data to back it, like the state will let ya hunt em when they are endangerd. If by any means they shut down these operations it will make the anti's stronger and they will claim victory..

Ya gotta watch out for those black ops helecopters too. They`re watching you all the time, ya know. [/quote]
Again I ask you to prove me wrong.. And please explain to me about hunters being divided how that is a good thing..
Read the article from the anti that would love to stand with hunters to ban fenced operations, you know from the guy who is the President of a group called the committee to abolish sport hunting. Here I will post it for ya.

Much has been said about the issue of fenced hunting preserves in Tennessee, better known as "canned hunts."
What makes canned hunting an interesting issue is that it often unites longtime hunters with anti-hunting wildlife advocates. Canned hunts, such as the one planned in Grainger County, offer an experience that is closer to shooting fish in a barrel than it is to traditional hunting.
Hunting animals confined to an enclosure with no means of escape is a violent practice that appeals to the worst that humanity has to offer.
Tennessee residents should not wait for the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency to do anything about canned hunting.
Given that both hunters and wildlife advocates condemn canned hunting, it is time for the Legislature to act and ban these unethical and violent operations.To learn what you can do to help eliminate canned hunting forever, visit www.abolishsporthunting.com.
Joe MielePresident,The Committeeto Abolish Sport Hunting

Now please read that and tell me why standing beside this moron is a good thing...

C.A.S.H. Mission Statement The mission of C.A.S.H. - Committee to Abolish Sport Hunting - is to accomplish what its name says in the shortest possible time.
Understanding that abolishing hunting entails a process, a series of steps taken and not a single action that would effect our goal overnight, a time frame cannot be established. We hope for building a succession of wins, and if not wins immediately then at least a succession of stirrings of consciousness. We hope to encourage those who are still silent to speak out, awakening community after community about the heavy hand of state and federal wildlife management agencies. We hope to alter whatever belief still exists that sport hunters are conservationists and champions of the environment to a realization that they are destroyers of wildlife and ecosystems in the narrow and broad sense. Where the natural feeling for wildlife doesn't exist, we strive to engender among citizens outrage that their own rights are violated by legal hunting and that their quality-of-life diminished.
Luke A. Dommer was the founder of the Committee to Abolish Sport Hunting. He was its president from 1976 until his passing in August 1992. Mr. Dommer's research and publications served as the foundation for the anti-hunting movement. He remains, through this organization, an invaluable and dedicated warrior in the battle to save wild animals, the environment, and general public from the silent economy that encourages and preys on the passion of a few to kill the wildlife that belongs to all.

So I would say that standing with them you are standing against hunting and hunters..

Again I ask you to prove me wrong.. And please explain to me about hunters being divided how that is a good thing.. Read the article from the anti that would love to stand with hunters to ban fenced operations, you know from the guy who is the President of a group called the committee to abolish sport hunting. Here I will post it for ya.

Much has been said about the issue of fenced hunting preserves in Tennessee, better known as "canned hunts." What makes canned hunting an interesting issue is that it often unites longtime hunters with anti-hunting wildlife advocates. Canned hunts, such as the one planned in Grainger County, offer an experience that is closer to shooting fish in a barrel than it is to traditional hunting. Hunting animals confined to an enclosure with no means of escape is a violent practice that appeals to the worst that humanity has to offer. Tennessee residents should not wait for the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency to do anything about canned hunting.Given that both hunters and wildlife advocates condemn canned hunting, it is time for the Legislature to act and ban these unethical and violent operations.To learn what you can do to help eliminate canned hunting forever, visit www.abolishsporthunting.com.Joe MielePresident,The Committeeto Abolish Sport Hunting

Now please read that and tell me why standing beside this moron is a good thing...

Ummmmm. Well, since I disagree with canned hunts as well, and since he`s right, that it`s closer to shooting fish in a barrel than it is to hunting...........hold on, I`m thinking.

Again I ask you to prove me wrong.. And please explain to me about hunters being divided how that is a good thing.. Read the article from the anti that would love to stand with hunters to ban fenced operations, you know from the guy who is the President of a group called the committee to abolish sport hunting. Here I will post it for ya.

Much has been said about the issue of fenced hunting preserves in Tennessee, better known as "canned hunts." What makes canned hunting an interesting issue is that it often unites longtime hunters with anti-hunting wildlife advocates. Canned hunts, such as the one planned in Grainger County, offer an experience that is closer to shooting fish in a barrel than it is to traditional hunting. Hunting animals confined to an enclosure with no means of escape is a violent practice that appeals to the worst that humanity has to offer. Tennessee residents should not wait for the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency to do anything about canned hunting.Given that both hunters and wildlife advocates condemn canned hunting, it is time for the Legislature to act and ban these unethical and violent operations.To learn what you can do to help eliminate canned hunting forever, visit www.abolishsporthunting.com.Joe MielePresident,The Committeeto Abolish Sport Hunting

Now please read that and tell me why standing beside this moron is a good thing...

Ummmmm. Well, since I disagree with canned hunts as well, and since he`s right, that it`s closer to shooting fish in a barrel than it is to hunting...........hold on, I`m thinking.

good one ok let's see they get a victory banning these hunts, hunters can sleep better at night and then these anti's will go away. I dont think they would but hey I see black helicopters I only witness first hand hunting being banned, probably a good thing it was banned not "ethical" enough for real hunters. Shoot I will now stand with the anti's heck why call em anti's we could call em the "ethicals" makes me feel better already..

Seriously, I`ve never understood your position. I wish I could think of an anology that might make sense to you, but the thing is this: as I said before, I believe right is right and wrong is wrong. I see no issue siding with anyone and everyone who sides on the right side of issues.

Because some anti-hunting group feels the same way I do about canned hunts, in no way makes me an anti-hunter. And I feel no remorse that we`re sharing a common ground in this instance.

Your contention that, say for example, canned hunts being shut down, makes us as hunters more vulnerable is false. It in fact makes us more secure, since a form of "hunting" that the non-hunting public strongly dislikes is gone. And I`m not talking anti`s, I`m talking the non-hunting public. The majority of non-hunters, who generally are with us.

I just won`t ever see your point on this, in fact, I feel your lack of flexability makes you appear, to outsiders, to be very insecure about your entire position on hunting. It makes it appear that you`re so unsure of the validity of your stance on legitimate hunting, that you`re afraid to lose any support for your position, no matter how shady it may be.

right is right wrong is wrong, that is correct what makes it right what makes it wrong...We have no clue if this operation is what people call a canned hunt, just cause some anti elitist called it a canned hunt. This could be a 10,000 acre area or it could be 10 feet we dont know we are taking his word for it, and believe it or not peta, and the HSUS are very good at making false hunting video's that people eat up and jump on the ban wagon.

I will ask this question again. Have you ever had any form of hunting you enjoy banned, have you ever had to fight to save your hunting?

right is right wrong is wrong, that is correct what makes it right what makes it wrong...We have no clue if this operation is what people call a canned hunt, just cause some anti elitist called it a canned hunt. This could be a 10,000 acre area or it could be 10 feet we dont know we are taking his word for it, and believe it or not peta, and the HSUS are very good at making false hunting video's that people eat up and jump on the ban wagon.

I will ask this question again. Have you ever had any form of hunting you enjoy banned, have you ever had to fight to save your hunting?

To your point of whether the enclosure is 10 feet or 10,000 acres, that makes no difference. A fenced shoot is just that, a fenced shoot.

Just as the anti`s can spin their argument, so do your friends. I`ve heard it argues here, that perhaps the point of the emclosure is to keep others out. [8|] Boy do I want to be your real estate agent.

We`ll have to agree to disagree on this whole point.

If the anti`s and I happen to agree on some points, so be it. I`ll never side with most of their points, as surely as it appears I`ll not side with you on this.

Help Stop the Bow Hunt at Lehigh County's Trexler Game Preserve [align=center]By Joe Miele[/align] On May 11th , Wildlife Watch received a call from a concerned citizen regarding a Lehigh County, PA owned property: the Trexler Game Preserve. She and many others were horrified to learn that the County Executive was going to allow hunting in the preserve for the first time ever.
Background The Lehigh-Trexler Game Preserve was once owned by industrialist General Harry C. Trexler (1854  1933). General Trexler owned and operated a lumber company and a cement company, as well as being involved with public utilities including water, electricity, public transportation and telephones. He held seats on several corporate boards as well as trusteeships at three area hospitals, two colleges and a university. Trexler founded the 1,100-acre game preserve in North Whitehall and Lowhill townships in 1906 as a wildlife park to help save the North American bison from extinction after he was advised both elk and bison could thrive in the Lehigh Valley. After his death this property was deeded to Lehigh County in 1935 to be a public wildlife preserve. No public hunting has ever been allowed, and the property has become a sanctuary for deer, turkeys and other animals. The preserve is known for its dramatic views, diverse land character, picturesque creeks and rustic covered bridges. To date, sixteen of the preserve's mammal species have been observed directly or noted by their tracks or sounds and twenty other species are unobserved, but probable.
The "Master Plan" On November 17, 2005 a "Master Plan" for the preserve was introduced to the public with its goals being to open and "improve" the entire preserve property, to create access for "recreation" and education, to protect environmentally sensitive areas, and to restore the natural character of the plant life by removing non-indigenous plant species (such as autumn olive). Since a good portion of the property is inaccessible, roads through the preserve would be constructed, hiking and biking trails would be built, and there was the "problem" of deer. We at C.A.S.H. know what that means.
An article in the May 10, 2007 edition of the Lehigh Valley daily newspaper, The Morning Call, explained the Master Plan for the preserve in greater detail. (Bowhunters get a shot at nature preserve, hikers, bird watchers and others will also have more land at Trexler site open to them. 5/10/07) Nearly 500 acres of the preserve will be opened to bowhunting this September 29th, a move initiated by Lehigh County Executive Don Cunningham.
The Bow Hunt In cooperation with the Pennsylvania Game Commission, Mr. Cunningham has given the green light for bow hunters to kill deer and turkeys on a 471-acre portion of the preserve commonly known as the North Range, despite freely admitting that they do not know how many deer live on the Preserve. They seek to kill them anyway, to provide hunters with "recreational opportunities." While deer are being made out to be the enemies of the preserve for eating the native vegetation (how dare they try to find something to eat!), neither the Game Commission, the County Executive, nor any other scientific or government body has deemed wild turkeys to be having a detrimental effect on the preserve's fauna or fauna. Despite this, they are included in the killing plans to again provide hunters with "recreational opportunities."
Opening the preserve to hunting was possibly done to appease hunting groups, some of which protested the Pennsylvania Game Commission's March meeting because hunters have killed off so many deer that hunters are whining about not having enough animals to kill. In an article from the Patriot News, hunters complained to the Game Commission that they need to reduce the number of does killed in some regions by as much as 70 percent to help the herd repopulate. (Deer Fight, Commission prodded to cut doe tags 3/6/07.)
While bow hunting is being planned for the next four years, it is safe to assume that the hunting community will ensure that deer and other wildlife are slaughtered on the preserve's property in perpetuity.
There is no reason to believe that things will be any different on the preserve than they are anywhere else, if the Pennsylvania Game Commission and its army of Nimrods have its way. The hunting programs orchestrated by the Pennsylvania Game Commission's have devastated the state's wildlife and the areas where they live. Gary Alt, a former chief biologist for the Game Commission as recently as 2004 has made some telling statements about the state of "deer management" in Pennsylvania. In an article from the April 25, 2001 edition of the Charleston (WV) Daily Mail, Mr. Alt states "The bottom line is that we've been trying to raise more deer than the land can sustain," and he also implies that the PGC mismanages wildlife in very un-scientific ways when he states "Vocal hunters have dominated wildlife managers' plans since the early 1900s," "The managers' willingness to bow to their wishes has skewed the way wildlife is managed."
In the December, 2005 issue of "Central New York Outdoor Journal" Mr. Alt has more damning words for the state of wildlife management as practiced by the PGC. Alt states that deer management "has been the biggest mistake in the history of wildlife management," and refers to it as "malpractice." The author of the article goes on to state:
"What is the reason for the management problem? Hunters, who have paid the freight with their license dollar, have always asked for more deer. Biologists have responded with various techniques that allow deer herds to build beyond the carrying capacity of the forests, and now they are paying the penalty with declining forest regeneration. The basic premise is that biologists have kept hunters happy but ruined the forest."WHAT YOU CAN DO Currently, Wildlife Watch is supporting the efforts of Virginia Wolfe of the Lehigh Valley Animal Rights Coalition in an effort to stop to the barbarity of bow hunting in the preserve before it begins, but we need your help to make this happen. Letters and phone calls are needed to the County Executive of Lehigh County, Mr. Don Cunningham, as well as to each of the members of the Lehigh County Board of Commissioners. In your firm but polite communication with these county officials, feel free to use the following facts:
· Bow hunting is barbaric. Studies show that bow hunters wound and cripple more deer than they quickly kill (Langenau (1986), published in "An Assessment of Deer Hunting in New Jersey" The New Jersey Division of Fish and Game, 1990)
· New hunting opportunities are being proposed by the Pennsylvania Game Commission merely to satisfy hunters who feel there are not enough animals to kill, and this is not justification for opening another area to hunting.
·There has been no public hunting in the Trexler Game Preserve since it was deeded to the county in 1935
· Hunters can already hunt on the nearby State Game Land 205 - no further hunting is needed in the area.
· The Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources is desperate for money. Pennsylvanians are losing interest in hunting, as evidenced by the almost 14% drop in the number of adult resident hunting licenses sold (by far the largest segment of license sales) between 1998 and 2005. This is not a reason to open up another hunt, and

I cut off the contact reps section. Use the link right above to see the whole article.

The rest of the links will let you pick some of the issues you may want to side with or part company with him on.