Conscious and unconscious expectations and/or roles within the marriage

study Neil Clark Warren materials

breakup suppport/counciling

Share personal commitment/time spent in God's Word

expectations of mate/self

Q4 General Replies

"I think a young couple getting married forthe first time should have all topics raised as issues to be discussed and covered in a safe and nurturing environment where trust is developed.

Couples marrying after a death of a partner or those marrying later in life should be given the opportunity to express which areas they would like to share discussion, as some benefit for past experience and maturity should be afforded them – perhaps just questioning whether the pair have spoken aboutissues"

We did work through a excellent workbook prepared by two sisters associated with the CARE group in Australia

Establishing common purpose is the key. This must happen in the main area (relationship to God) and then other areas as listed above.

The Bible really does have the answers but young people probably need guidence as to what is written. Talking things over fully and freely is critical. Focus on being and helping each other to be, what God would have us be, is what works for us. Fixes everything so far!

I also think fidelity is a huge issue and even though the couple may not think they will ever have this issue, it DOES, unfortunately, play a role in many marriages, even C'delphian ones. This issue definitely should be talked about. It could even be a sub-heading under Sexual Relations and/or Communication.

"It is my observation and experience,that strong feelings and connections with Mom and Dad can often cause problems.

Also – more and more of our new converts come with previous exes and children"

One cannot know too much about a future partner.

we bring stuff from the home we grew up in – discussions around what was good and a keeper vs what was not so helpful & a good thing to leave behind. under having/raising children discussion when children come – is someone staying home. if so, impact on the balance of "power" – who's making the money now, what do they expect of the one staying home. What does the one staying at home expect.

There is a book and now couseling method which identifies how you & partner "feels" and gives Love. If 2 people speak a diferent language, it can be discordant. they are Quality Time, Words of affirmation, gifts, acts of service, and physical touch. Also,I asked my son(18) a couple of years ago what he was most thankful for in his life. he said"that we have a peaceful household". From the start, my husband refused to argue. It was hard for me at first, but today I am extrememly thankful.

I have been a widow for almost 9 years. I was married in 1943, when even most parents didin't discuss such things as sex. It definitely was not discussed in our ecclesia. From my experience, I have to disagree with the biblical admonition that the husband should be the head of the household. All men are not able to assume all the responsibiliies of working, supervising children, and handling finances. It should be a mutual effort where both husband and wife cooperate.

"also: faithfulness when absent one from another especially if one is away on business

also: think 'we' and avoid 'I' – single days are over!"

"What is love.

We often hear the romantic view of love, giving 150% and so forth as well as considering your 8 points above.

When we think we have stopped loving for any given reason is actually when true love begins; loving what we think to be unloveable is Christ like love in all aspects; this is our example, this is the lesson, this is the counsel."

"The bible promotes unity and working together.

However day to day division of responsibiltie in

working as a team neads to be clear. It is often the little things that build u, particularily if both work. (This could be part of Roles or life goals above."

Bible teaching about marriage (not just roles, but the sanctity and guidelines of a Biblical marriage) seems important and appropriate also.

The 5 Love Languages is a great book, but stressing personality is important; ie. extroverted, chatty at night, sarcastic, etc.

All of the above topics should be covered. We are living in the last days. The bonds of marriage should be strengthed. The Brothers and Sisters should support one another as we tackle these issues.

Communication is the number one factor that can make or break a marriage. Teach people to communicate effectively and kindly with each other -so both know they have been heard. Just being heard is healing in itself.

How to deal with the possible frustrations resulting from growth or changes in one spouse that are at a different or stagnant rate in the other.

"We make decisions &develop behaviours in our homes of origin that we carry with us into our new married state,&then wonder why the partner does not understand us.If people's baggages are not compatible they need to understand their OWN psychology so that they can let go of the baggage &create a NEW life with the one they love.

BTW the counselling we received prior to marriage was not possitive. We over-rode the advice and did get married. 11 years later we are VERY happily married."

all of the above, in just about that order of priority

I would like to see regular marriage strengthening workshops/retreats offered in our area. This seems to be a particular deficiency in the Amended fellowship here. The UA seem much more willing to address this area of difficulty in seminars, talks etc.

I think most people have unrealistic expectations when they get married. Unfortunately I also recognize that when you are in love and think you will spend the rest of your life with someone, there's not much one could say that would make you believe that things will be anything but wonderful. Especially if you marry a Christadelphian.

"#3 Why limit counseling to 1 source? Not sure if ""Christian marriage services"" would qualify as fellow believer, but a professionally trained Evangelical would be more suitable if one only has counseling from a single source.

MOST Christadelphians i have heard speak on marriage simply dont have a clue, neither from the Bible perspective nor the qualification by worldly standards. Personal testimony and a few verses dont do much good, ive seen too many marriages fall apart despite counseling."

"There are many issues that can also be added to this list,but I would definitely include the following:

- Personality Tests – Compatability

- Extended family – how to handle inlaws, siblings, etc.

- Social life – his/her friends, how to create synergy.

- How to put God first, Marriage second, children third."

Not married, but these would be valuable items of advice from an older married couple.

Seek ye first the kingdom, etc. Emphasis on truth related activities, not on success in business, sports, etc.

I think it's would be great to have pre marital counseling offered for everyone before marriage. I do know that in some case a brother talked to his grandson and his future wife before they got married and she was glad. He was the one marring them. And I've heard this brother has done it with others, if he's the one marring them. But it would be great to have a husband and wife do it together.

We met w/ the brother that married us and his wife and covered a range of topics. Ironically, I think we had so much help because my husband was studying for baptism and not baptised at that point. I think watching other people in my christadelphian peers who were not in this situation actually were less well prepared due to our assumptions of what they held in common when in fact they did not. Of my cyc generation statewide, at least 65 % have failed marriages.

"It needs to be several sessions, over time, with work sheets and an opportunity for the genders to have separate discussions as well as group ones.

The counseling should optimally come from a couple that will continue to stand in a mentor role for the rest of the young couple's lives.

A pamphlet/workbook would be helpful. Although I don't envy any particular person the writing of it…"

"Balancing of spending time with each other a part from children & children, ecclesial responsibilities and career responsibilities.

Balancing attention to extended family."

seeing things from the other person's perspective is important. As you can only get the other person's perspective by communicating, I think some training in communication methods that avoid anger and promote understanding and compassion is a must.

I left out Biblical roles only since these should be evident to baptized believers — we need to offer specific, concrete assistance from knowledgeable/expert? couples in terms of HOW TO and this should be on-going during the marriage as a mentorship check-up.

all of the above.

Developing a good raport with family and bre and sis is essential for support , guidance and comfort throughout married life. Making the Word of God and the goal of the Kingdom the basis of social relations in the home is a good foundation to be encouraged from the beginning of life together as man and wife in the Lord

With regard to M/F perspectives are we able to teach processes that build a godly perspective, ie Christ hand in hand with both partners. Maintaining a spiritual context: reading, praying, being co-workers etc. A marriage that bears the fruits of the spirit and righteousness to the glory of our Heavenly Father. Helping each other to please, praise and be with God and His Son, now and forevermore.

Biblical roles/settling disputes seems to be a huge issue in my ecclesia where the man is the ruler, the supreme being and the wife is stupid and should just let the man run things simply because she isn't really stupid, but she is just a woman.

I think all of these are essential topics to go over.

Addressing the permanence of the decision. Some sort of discussion on divorce might not be a bad idea as the divorce rate is high, even amongst the ecclesial community.

I thought the series was very helpful and useful for those getting married and for those already in a marriage who may or may not have had marital counseling.Always room for improvement.

I think professional pre marrital counselling is a must. It is absolutely vital to make couples aware of exactly what marriage is all about, especially respecting each other in all aspects of married life. Unrealistic expectations is a big thing.

This is Mike and Sarah Robinson (We're not shy or worries about others knowing my answers). Should use some professional material too – whether it's from biblical counselors (such as those involved with NANC) or from the inside – those who know more about the physiological and psychological perspectives of man and woman than perhaps we do.

I'm no longer married, but I did have counseling before the wedding. What I didn't know was what to do when something really bad happened. I was embarrassed and ashamed by what was happening to my marriage, to my husband, and I felt completely alone because I did not want to disparage him to his faith family. Also, people were against us marrying in the first place, so I didn't know who to go to. I wish we had been better counseled about what to do in a worst case scenario.

"Commitment

Faithfulness

Boundaries within Marriage

If the soon-to-be spouse is not in the Truth, this issue must be addressed as well"

what is expected when one is not able to perform how to handle these pressures especially when you are a young person

As important as sexual compatibility is, I think that would be better addressed by a professional in that field. However, sexual fidelity might be addressed by a fellow believer or counselor.

Who to talk to when you need help?

Clarifying biblical roles vs. human-made roles and the ways people can fit into multiple roles in order to make their different relationships work.

I have always thought that we need to do more work in this area. Most of us are totally unprepared for the important roles of spouse and parent. Thank you for this series.

Question 5

Q5 General Replies

…but we really don't have many serious problems

Unfortunately, this is unapplicable as the Ukrainian ecclesia are mainly retired and single/widowed B&S.

Honestly, I really have no idea. Most of the couples in our ecclesia have been married 40 years or more. I can't say I really know what goes on in their marriage besides how I see them interact at meeting. The main problem in MY marriage is focusing on other stuff. We don't mean to, we just end up doing it.

I am not in a position to comment, only havign been with the ecclesia for the past 12 months. The ecclesia has a predominately aged group and marriages appear to be secure.

I'm not in an ecclesia that i would see things that are indicated above. I only met once a month.

I'm not aware of any problems at the moment. Over the years we've had three marriages in trouble, all ending in divorce. Two were from unfaithfulness and the other was from drinking.

not sure how to answer this

I would have stoppped rating after #5 if the survey would have let me.

Wow! Could not possibly comment on what others get up to. I doubt they would share if such things were issues! Sorry! I simply don't know the answers! We would not have the place to judge either.

I have no real idea about the personal issues relating to the marital status of my ecclesial bros & Sis

The first four choices I feel confident in choosing…items 5-10, I'm really not sure about. Just guessing on those.

There should be more ability to use #1.

I found this question difficult and was unable to answer it in a meaningful way.

My ecclesia is pretty private. I honestly do not know what the most common issues are. I only know a few marriages that closely. I generally think a lack of focus on God is THE major issue. strive to be a good disciple, and all other things fall into place. The challenge comes when one or both partners do not have this focus. ALSO, when you lose the focus- and we all do, not recognizing it can be repaired- just letting it spiral. I find mental health issues to be a BIG factor.

I don't know how to rate other married couples. So many people want their marriage/family to look perfect from the inside. So as an outsider I can't rate what goes on behind closed doors. I however can rate what I DON"T want in my marriage.

"We are a very small ecclesia. Hard to gage many of these aspects.

After 1-3 they aren't true calculations, I had to enter a value but they are not problems in our ecclesia at all.

Only 3 couples .."

Do not know about some of the items above and whether they are these issues or not, therefore, cannot rank all of them. I can rank some of them 1 – Not lisening to each other, 2 – Too much focus on other stuff, 3-Money/financial issues, 4-Lack of respect, 5 – Too much focus on sports/entertainment

I am too old to be this intimate with the young couples and haven't been a member of my ecclesia long enough to know about any problems with the older couples. Whenever I see them, they all seem to be happy and compatible.

We have a very unique situation. We have an ecclesia basically 10 sisters. Two have husbands who married into the truth. One came once, the other was very open and giving but has schooling to complete which competes with Sunday AM. Other sisters are not married or husbands are not in the truth.

"Some of the above ""problems"" do not actually exist in our marriage, but it seems that I have to select each (we have no issues of adultery, sexual problems, too much focus on ecclesia, entertainment, etc.

My husband's sexual abuse by a Christadelphian family's son (and witnessing his sister's rape by this young man) caused him much grief and sorrow that caused a lot of stress on our marriage, until he finally opened up about it, and sought some counselling."

Our membership is very small, the majority having long term marriages. The few "young couples" we do have appear to have a great understanding of the value of marriage and what it takes to love unloveable acts at times and follow the greater example extended through Christ. We are blessed.

We do not knowingly have these problems in the Ecclesia at present.

We don't have these problems that I know of. I think these subjects should begin being studied in CYC Classes so young people can seriously consider what will make a good marriage.

Respecting God and each other are paramount. It is the foundation on which all others lay.

Sunday worship was not intended by God to be a hardship -it should be uplifting. A morning service followed by a fellowship coffee would be uplifting and build on the renewal felt during memorial. In contrast -a morning service, work in the kitchen for hot lunch, clean up, listen to a lecture, go home, make dinner again for tired family is too much and feels like a burden. Yet one feels disapproval if they don't participate. Family time in itself is precious and needs to be respected by others.

Factors 7-10 should not be ranked as they are not current factors.

Communication and lack thereof are one of the biggest issues – guess that is not listening! I don't think that we stress strongly enough the importance of a healthy marriage relationship. We just accept the status quo and a history of inadequate skills

"ug, i sure wish i could rank a lot of stuff equal. like from 4 to 8.

also – some problems members might face, but these are NOT ecclesial problems. Sometimes the best way to help is leave it to the professionals and keep our ignorant noses out of it. How some ecclesias have treated brothers and sisters who have gone looking for help is horrifying and i think it will keep some AB's from the kingdom!"

Marrying at a very young age without much job or life experience. Limited education or financial resources. Pre marital sex pressures.

I don't know enough about member's marriages and their problems to rank these issues.

Some of these don't apply to my knowledge.

"From my perspective as an observer, a couple

not spending enough time together and truly

understanding each others needs and wants…resulting in

a tug of war with raising children, financial problems and with their roles both as husband and wife and their commitments to the Truth suffers as a result of the above. I'll also say that it works in the reverse so they come full circle."

N/A

I don't know about details, so I'm only ranking some.

"The belief that just because you have the right label ie baptised christadelphian, that you are going to automatically be able to figure out the complex and intimate issues in every marriage.

I think all of these problems stem sometimes arise but they are symptoms of a larger cause which is narcissism. If we would treat our inflated sense of self we would all be better husbands, wives, parents, brethren and most importantly servants of our Lord"

I really couldn't rank the ones I indicated as 6-10 but couldn't finish the survey without putting something.

"Ranking of above is invaled past 3. Really didn't know what to put beyond that, but we were required to put something!

Why we don't feel we know more about this: Not enough trust or comfort among ecclesial members for brothers/sisters to be able to share their marital difficulties honestly. It may be the feeling that everyone else's marriage is fine or that others won't understand or will look down on those who admit to problems."

Too much focus on career advancement and responsibilities

I would only be guessing!!!

Not too much trouble in this area at the moment. the foregoing ranking is based on previous cases

Numbers 1 – 9 add up to the result, number 10.

Our ecclesia is small. There has been a trend for divorced people to find their way back to God through our ecclesia. Their have been no incidents of divorce within our ecclesia during the last 10 years. The above ranking is therefore speculative. Our membership also fits into the mature category with most members having grown up children or single.

Our Ecclesia number is seven and we are blessed with two happy marriages and one is to ill to marry. The other two are to old to marry.

This was hard to rate…not listening is more one side has to do all the listening and the other side gets to speak (of course, no surprise, the legalistic man gets to speak and the passive wife is oppressed)

Our ecclesia is 8 believers. The examples that you have above wouldn't have any reference to our ecclesia because of size and age of members. BUT, the one problem has been marrying out of the truth (happened 50-60 yrs ago). My wife and I are the only members who married within our faith. NOW, the spouses have ALWAYS been supportive in the members walk. But, they haven't been there on Sunday.

I do not have personal information about the numbers left blank.

These are hard to rank but almost all of them have been observed

Under "lack of respect" I include a lack of respect for Biblical roles of man & wife

We are seperated and will be divorcing soon. My husband was unfaithful during out entire marriage something that he brought into it. For 17 yrs I knew and tried to live with his unfaithfulness – we have 2 beautiful children. But unfortunately he is unwilling to change or cannot change. So sexual problems etc including drugs and porn have been huge. I always thought I had to suffer and bear it all these years. Far from what God expects.

We are becoming or are a people that are not set apart. We have the same marital problems as the world because we let too much of the world become a part of our daily lives.

I think scriptural roles are seriously misunderstood. Leadership is emphasized over partnership. Brothers need to understand that if women are badgered into submission, it's no longer submission but oppression. Submission was a gift I wanted to give my husband, but I was robbed of the privilege by the hounding of verses and misuse of scripture. Scripture clearly tells us that it is the older WOMEN who are to teach us about our roles, not exhorting brothers. Sacrifice is their gift to us.

I think there are as many different problems as there are marriages, some more serious than others. Sometimes it starts small like a problem of having the wrong focus and, if not addressed it can grow into other, more serious problems. I think most of the above problems have been experienced by different members of the ecclesia at one time or another. It is usually not a problem that ruins a marriage but how the problem is dealt with (or not d

This is difficutl to comment on. Life seems very busy and stressful for those realy married and married with young children and early teens re:; work stress. There seems to be an isolated feeling – not really knowing about each others marriages – just everyone going it on their own and hoping for the best.

I do not know details about anyone's marital issues other than my own marriage. Other people's issues are their business unless they approach me/us for help or support.

It is very hard to rank these as I do not know what the marriage problems are in my ecclesia. Perhaps the problem is that no one is talking about the problem?

I don't think quite a few of these apply to my ecclesia, thankfully

I find in almost all marriages communication is lacking. It's almost always the issue.

I don't know enough about other marriages to answer the above questions. I can typically tell from the outside if a couple if unhappy but I have no idea what is causing the problems.

not really qualified to judge the marriages of others – who knows what happens behind closed doors? The two I've selected above are obvious problems of two individuals.By money issues, I don't mean lack of it – I mean a husband with plenty of it who appears to deprive his wife.

"we have mostly widows though! these are my guesses

mental illnesses or past trajedies/abuse/neglect etc."

I can't really rate the above items,as I am not aware that they even exist in our small eccl. Please do not put any importance on the nos. past #4. We are a very small eccl. with only one active brother (sometimes). Most of us are married, but of 11 sisters, 5 are married to non-Christadelphians. This is the biggest marital problem in the ecclesia, although most of these husbands are supportive, or at least tolerant, to my knowledge. Two of the bros. have not attended in 2 yrs.

As I am not privy to others' personal lives, I cannot comment on this question.

Question 6

Q6 General Replies

Again, this is mostly unapplicable as there is no normal ecclesial life in the Ukrainian ecclesia.

The last couple who got married here had classes with my husband and me. We are the closest to their age & my husband was marrying them. The next marriage in our current group will probably not be for 15 years! Looking BACK at the history of marriage in our ecclesia, there have been many problems. At least 50% of the members believe it's ok to marry someone who is not in the Lord. That is a primary reason why our ecclesia is so small! People have married "out" & their children never came "in".

"Some couples train their children well and prepare them for marriage, but the ecclesia as a whole does not offer premarital classes, or counseling.

It seems when marriages in the ecclesia have fallen apart, people tried to help after it was too late.

People tend to be judgemental, not approachable. If you were having problems, most would be afraid to approach others out of fear of being judged. Also we don't have classes to build our marriages, only classes on doctrin."

Unable to commment on how well the ecclesia prepares couples for marriage, other than to say that couples have attended and feel the team involved to have been supportive and easy to speak with.

Once again i didn't start at in your ecclesia.

I have not been involved in ecclesial preparation for marriage so I can't really comment. Everyone looks happy enough. I guess!

It's hard to say how other marriages are in my ecclesia because i am not that informed in other peoples marriages. my ratings are based on my perception of their marriage. perhaps that is part of the problem, we aren't aware of other people's marriages and therefore we are unable to help until after the situation has gotten to a very bad place.

Our ecclesia does not offer pre-marital counseling, that I'm aware of. I also don't think there's anyone in particular a couple could go to if they were having problems and seeking counsel. This subject just isn't talked about in our ecclesia.

In our very small ecclesia we have at least two broken marriages, three second marriages following divorce and one very strained and tumultous marriages. We are supportive, loving and accepting, but I know the ABs struggle with some of these issues.

The person marrying the couple typically does marriage prep with them, or they may choose a married couple to have "discussions" with.

Personally, I was prepared for marriage because my mom was very open and told me things and answered my questions. I also had a good example to follow in my parents' marriage. My husband also had a good example to follow in his parents' marriage. We realize we have to be an example to our children and we have to be open and honest with our children about expectations of marriage in the Lord. Our children are still very young but it is never to early to start! Example is the teacher!

This is Deb Haughton, Cranston. I wish I knew you were doing this. I have always wondered if ecclesias who do not accept remarriage after divorce have better "stay together" rates than those who do. I also wounder the effect of a marriage out of the truth. In the ratings, above I rated for factors that are most prevelant, not most toxic. Most toxic would be substance abuse and adultry. We had a brother who met another woman on the internet and left his wife.

We are a young in age ecclesia and are still working out due processes.

Again, its hard for me to rate these things. Everyone puts on their best for Sunday meeting. I actually have respect for those who are reaching out for help in the church and I have respect for those who are trying to help (if its not done for "gossip").

"Question 1: This is based entirely on my observations.

Question 2: I approve of what I HEARD took place in my ecclesia on one occasion.

Question 3: If you mean by the ecclesia or my parents, I would have to check #1.

Question 4: I didn't answer, because I don't know."

How can you respond to a problem if both mates are not in the truth? We offer support and are a sounding board, but with the situation, we are limited.

There is no formal 'marriage guidance' counsellor brother/sister team appointed in ecclesia but the brother who marries the couple will generally assume the responsibility to carry out some counselling. The rating 3 reflects this.

We have not experienced marriage in the Ecclesia, but likely will

It is difficult to counsel/advise/respond to those who feel they do not want/need it.

I was not attending at the time and was definitely not prepared for marriage. The first few years were very difficult , but if we had been on the same page I know things would have been different. When we became baptised and centered our lives on God and godly principles everything changed – and I mean everything -for the better. So I believe that pre-marital counselling is an incredibly important gift that we can give to young couples.

"3God brought us together &provided us the courses (external counselling,psychology,and personal development)that we needed in order to handle the problems(baggage)of the other person.Therefore we could support &help each other.We were both in great pain &God worked with us for healing, reconciliation &the furtherance of His plan to recover sheep &bring others into the fold.

4We don't have a formalised system.Some take the role on and do it well,&others took on the role & did it disasterously."

either the arranging brethren are doing a good job of maintaining confidentiality or i'm not tuned into the eclesial grapevine.

"my first marriage i was NOT prepared or supported or guided by anyone in the church.

many times i hear SAVE the MARRIAGE…i never hear SAVE the PERSON"

There is increasing awareness of need in this area and we recently showed "Fireproof" to a small group of married couples in our ecclesia. One of the AB members was upset by this and chastised the organiser that this was inappropriate and "what the churches do." She dropped the project completely.

"i have a strange fixation with marriage theory, I studied it carefully alone and with others, both from scripture and from books. I've watched marriages fall apart for the most sad and surprising of reasons.

while my wife was in for a shock, and all the theory counts for nothing when i've done something wrong and she is rightfully upset with me, usually we have a wonderful married life."

They need to make counciling mandatory, they also need to respond to marriage problems and have a ways to find out about it other than at meeting or after the problem has become exacerbated.

Items 2 & 3 not applicable to our Ecclesial make-up.

I wasn't blind when I married. I went in knowing it wouldn't be easy, not because the ecclesia prepared me. I just wasn't naive about it because I had lived with someone before. I knew it would be work and I was afraid, because I wasn't sure if I had what it took. Your right when you said it's a choice, to keep loving. I made a promise to my Lord, husband and myself. I would live a life that I would never have to lie to my husband about. And for me not telling your spouse something is a lie.

I feel uncomfortable rating other people's marriage. I don't think anyone knows what is really going on inside of a marriage or a family. People generally let you know what you they want you to know and Christadelphians seem to generally suffer from a need to appear like everything is fine even when it is horrible. I am very impressed by the vast majority of relationships that I see but I am more than infrequently shocked and saddened to learn what was really under the surface.

Most marriage preparation has been within families, parents talking to their children and showing by example. There are no formal pre-marital classes.

The counselling didn't help tremendously since we were older than many and I had already done a lot of counselling in my career. The younger the couple, the more counselling needed (especially if they have not managed a household alone yet).

Our ecclesia has no formal marriage counselling. A brother and sister or the relatives of the couple may have an informal chat with the couple but I feel that with the prevailing attitudes in the world, this is not enough. Most of the marriages in this ecclesia are a good example to the newly weds, I'm glad to say.

We have some wonderful brethren that are available to prepare and conduct marriage ceremonies. Two of our sons have been recently married and were given wonderful support in the practical and spiritual aspects. These brethren are not members of our ecclesia.

We do not have any couples. See Coment above.

We have tons of divorce, some unfaithfulness and some oppression/legalism that makes a marriage lousy that has so much potential, my ecclesia mostly doesn't help much, when it came to unfaithfulness, there was discussion and some handling, but the rest, they don't seem to do much to me.

Are Ecclesia does not have anyone prepared to do this.

We went into marriage completely unprepared. We had one afternoon with the marrying brother who was suppose to give us pre marriage 'counselling'. This was FAR from what we got. Since going through what I had been through and reading many many books etc – I definately think it is a MUST to have 6 compulsary sessions with a professional counsellor for pre marriage – preparing for the ups and downs.

"Some of the marriages are incredible models for me and my wife and some are not. Some are totally unequally yoked, some are absolutely spiritually, physically and emotionally one – those are the ones we look to as examples!

We had premarrital counseling from a couple outside our ecclesia since we joined our current ecclesia only 6 months before marriage – so although WE felt REALLY prepared for marriage, we think our ecclesia could improve on their premarrital counseling."

I think our ecclesia has missed the mark on preparing couples for marriage, but has recognized the problem and some changes have been made. A sister commented recently that a strong ecclesia is made up of strong marriages. I agree with that statement. If we work on our marriages we will have stronger ecclesias and set a better example for our children.

I think that for a marriage to truly be great, we need to stop focusing on ourselves and the rules that are being broken and begin to become experts on each other. Two people who make it their mission to be experts on each other, and use their knowledge to cherish, love, and honor each other don't need rules.

there is still a lot more to be done

It is hard to rate the marriages in the ecclesia as a whole…Some are great, others are falling apart because of sin, addictions etc.

Just before my engagement I transferred to our meeting from a dfifferent fellowship. In addition, it was an international engagement crossing continents and cultures and we were spearted for the bulk of that time. I didn't know my brothers and sisters well since I was new and they had never met my prospective husband. I didn't feel too supported, but that is b/c of these factors and the stress involved with immigration. Many brethren and sisters didn't relate or understand the situation.

"I selected average for number six because premarital counseling is not part of the activities of my ecclesia.

BTW, delete the s in prepares. It should be prepare."

Once again, I do not know how well our ecclesia prepares couples, I can only refer to the help to me, which was many years ago. I also do not know how well our ecclesia respons to problems as this is confidential.

The members can only help if they are aware there are problems. Often times couples feel like they're the only ones experiencing problems and don''t want to speak up. We need to realize that we all struggle and none of us is perfect, nor our marriages.

If I remember correctly, we specifically asked the married couple to give us marriage counselling. They did an excellent job, and were not shy about talking about all issues such as possible problems, sex and intimacy. They also gave us a Christian book on having a healthy sexual relationship with your spouse, which was helpful in that it gave a more realistic picture regarding marital intimacy, and the need for communicating your different needs to one other.

The only reason I say that I was prepared for marriage is because I got married later in life so I had more maturity than the majority of newly married couples.

The marriages in the ecclesia are a mixed bag – who know what they are really like? Many appear to be long and strong. The ecclesia generally does not know how to respond to marriage problems, though individuals try very hard. We didn't have outside counselling before our marriage, but we worked through the UK Care Groups' Preparing for Marriage Booklet together, and found it really helpful. Marriage counseling is not automatically offered by the ecclesia, but it is given upon request.

Each individual seeking after God and His righteousness through application of the Word in hearts is more important than ecclesial intervention.

Being so small, we have not had this issue… yet!

I think this is an area most of us are afraid to delve into because it is so personal with so many profound implications. We need more members who are willing to give of themselves to listen and assist other members in whatever area counseling is needed.

Question 7

Q7 Replies to option “other”

My husband in the first instance

The Caring Network

secluded environment w/spouse

the friend would be trusted brothers & sisters outside my ecclesia

my partner

God

my spouse

a godly Christadelphian

We have had over 40 years together, in the truth.

a brother or sister

God

Ch Support Network UK

my wife!

Marriage Seminars, weekends away from home.

My spouse and my Bible.

my husband first (matt 18)

a close brother &/or sister in the ecclesia

My wife.

I would have to call on a brother from a different ecclesia to counsel my wife a

It depends on the severity of the problem or problems

Our pre-marriage counselors!

A trusted brother or sister in the church.

Legal counsel

My spouse

a specific couple in the ecclesia has helped us in the past.

Fellow Brother in Christ

My husband

a sister in Christ

a brother i know well

Q7 General Replies

I do not know anyone who I could turn to.

I don't feel comfortable turning to the brothers or sisters in my ecclesia.

If after trying to talk things through with my husband, having searched the bible and shared my prayer in relationship with Jesus and God, I would probably reach out to share my pain and heartache with a trusted friend, before seeking any assistance from an outside body. Our faith in God and Jesus were a firm part of our commitment to one another and that always comes first in our relationship.

now that i belong to an ecclesia i would turn to someone in the ecclesia that i would feel comfortbale to talk to.

From previous experience in a former marriage there is only ONE place to go – my Bible. But most vitally I know that both my wife and I must nurture and focus on our Bibles and prayer way before any problem looms. The "elders" have their own agendas. Councellors have THEIR own agendas too. Dreadful people! Grrrr Yuck!

The bible & prayer should be the foundation. Often tho, we're too busy praying for the other person to change or understand, etc when it's us that needs to change. Few of us understand what self sacrificing and esteeming the other better than ourselves is really all about. Often we have developed some bad habits in relating to one another and need a 3rd party to help refocus. Someone who doesn't know us or our families but understands our spiritual goals is desireable.

My husband and I have a very honest relationship with each other. Being married young (and growing up together in marriage) is seen as an asset by both of us. We are actually going to encourage our children (if they fall in love at a young age with a Godly individual) to marry young because we see many advantages to it. Learning and growing together has been our greatest advantage in our (almost) 14 years of marriage. The worldly perspective of young marriage is very negative (and not biblical).

"I have been there- my answers are experience.

Other topics in pre-marital counseling- making sure they are being realistic- what are your expectations for ""a day in the life"". Chores, bible readings? Biblical roles-I work, my husband stays home. We look at our biblical roles as a state of mind, not traditional division of labor. I respect and welcome his authority, he appreciates my perspective. The wife of Prov 31 managed much so husband could sit in the gate."

Im not married yet but these are things that are good for me to be aware of . I need a good support group. After all that is what God wants us to have is fellowship that is one of the key parts to our christian walk.

I did not answer #1 above as I am not really sure!

We know what God expects of us in all aspects of our lives. We know that we are human and will have problems. We have to truly try to do what is right to please God and make our lives as happy as possible and turn to Him in times of trouble.

I came into the truth after marriage. It has been a stuggle to say the least at times to keep peace. But after 40 years I believe that a combination of knowing God's plan for me, (and His concept of families in general) and seeking out counseling where it was needed Our marriage has survived. My husband is a Vietnam Vet who suffers with PTSD and I sought our professionals who helped me "deal" with his problem. That action alone was the biggest tool that enabled us to remain married and n

I would consult a Christadelphian that I respect and know that they love God and base their life on the Word of God.

"Common sense discussion has always worked for us.

Open and honest communication should generally work between two mature adults."

My first choice would be a respected elder(not necessarily an "official" elder), someone I trust to give sound honest advice–even something I may not want to hear. I have also seen professional secular counseling (perhaps individuals) do much good–this may help with some of the underlying personal problems.

No one in our ecclesia is qualified to deal with marriage problems. The patriarchal set-up in an ecclesia is not an ideal solution for such a problem. The potential grapevine would include the arranging board knowing your most intimate problems and then their wives and so on. That's what happens with every other issue -so why would this be different. Instead there should be one counselor who is bound to a professional level of conduct -and this would instill confidence in those seeking help.

It is often easier to confide in those close to you who you trust(eg fiend) or a complete professional stranger (for confidentiality). People will make a judgement about the Elders as to how they react to things, and how they are likly to handle this. We all have filters. Some are more biased than others.

would be loath to bring it before the arranging board. pillow talk could lead straigt to the eclesial grapevine. I saw it happen in a previous eclesia & it caused a big fruroar.

The Caring Network, Care Line and WCF would also be avenues of help for me

"it really depends on the problem! again ""boxing"" problems into a solution is silly in the extreme. Knowing who, what and where to go for the right help at the right time is 90% of the battle. If left too late, the only people that can really help would be an apartment finder, a moving company and a layer! Or God forbid, a doctor or coroner.

the benefit of pre-marriage counseling is

1) no delusion that marriage is bliss

2) the relationship that forms with the counselor so when…"

Privacy issues restrain people from seeking out the AB's for counsel.

I don't believe in sharing problems with the board because it can be used against you later. It is better to handle it outside of meeting and be discreet as possible.

"This has to be done with both. Often times a

partner turns outside to a listening ear and

not to the one who can make a difference. It is

amazing how a lack of communication can best cause

marriage problems. TALK TO EACH OTHER NOT AT OR

ABOUT EACH OTHER>"

and then you are stigmatised for going for help

A brother/sister with whom I felt confident would honour the confidentiality of the problem.

I picked 3 and hope I wouldn't have to go further than that. But I would do whatever it took to solve the problem. I wish we had more for couples in trouble, it's so sad to see brothers and sister give up. I am blessed that I married a wonderful brother. We both want a good marriage, and still enjoy each others company. It's so worth the work, we to still like each other. He still makes me laugh after 21 years and 2 kids later.

First I would look in the mirror, then communicate with my husband, use prayer and the word throughout, go to a respected person in the meeting then seek objective professional support as needed.

Unfortunately the serving brothers don't have experience to handle

Keeping in contact with ecclesial activities and discussing concerns with close ecclesial members has helped me in the past to focus on working through problems and not trying to escape them. I think it is harder in these times to accept that a lifelong committment is just that and that is is possible and strengthening to overcome obstacles and rejoice in the benefits which bond a man and woman together

I would seek clear understanding of the problem (listen!). I would do this with my wife firstly, trying to act in a way pleasing to God. This process would involve reading the bible, seeking guidance from another believing couple that we could trust, prayer, personal support from trusted brethren that also know and love my wife. My ideal would be that we pray togrther for an outcome that would please God to be made clear to both of us and for the Lord Jesus Christ to be our guide to resolution.

We don't have any marriage problems.

I tried going through the brothers on my own issues in marriage, but they did nothing…they tried just a little, it went no where and they gave up. It is a big deal to me that they all know there are issues and they are ostriches when I have cried out for help. Sorry if my comments are cynical, I don't have the best marriage and unless someone forces him to discuss the issues, he will just continue to feel he is supreme and right.

I haven't really felt like any issues in my marriage have been serious enough to get anyone outside of friends and family involved.

Based on observation I don't believe most board/elders are equipped (don't have the skills) to counsel in matters of marriage breakdown.

We did many years of counselling with a Christadelphian counsellor and then christian counsellors. I never felt I was able to trust anyone in Christadelphia.

There is not one answer here obviously – when (not IF!) we have problems in marriage, we work them out between the two of us in total confidence – using scripture, prayer and books if necessary. But that is only because our issues have been managable between us. If something huge came up, we would definitely seek friends and our pre-marrital counselors… then as if the issue still escalated we would go to Christian counseling.

Emphasis on the word trusted. Too many marriage problems have become the knowledge of the whole church by loose-lipped individuals on the board or even elders.

Prayer always comes first. Some people still like to dicuss it with friends also.

In my case, my husband had little respect for the governing brothers so their counsel did little to help us. Unlike the first century church, they have little 'power' to exert, almost forcing struggling individuals to go to the courts of men. The only way the church can truly help is if both parties respect and honor the governing body of elders, and if those elders are bible based leaders. Maybe that's something else to be addressed in early counseling.

Our ecclesia does not have a good history of effective help for marriage problems. We are ill-equipped and lack skills and resources.

I would probably not turn to anyone until the latest stage.

Only after exhausting the sources checked would I turn to outside sources such as ecclesial members, books or counseling.

Now I would turn to some members of the ecclesia, but when I needed to have help,about 10 years ago. I felt I had no one to turn to.

Definitely go to God 1st. I would turn to those I believe would be able to keep our marriage problem confidential, and who would be able to offer both support and sound script. advice. I would only turn to the elders of our particular ecclesia as a fairly last resort, as there are large families who would most likely all find out about it. I would be willing to go to counseling, but not as a 1st choice, as the true body of Christ "should" have the most sound way of dealing with these issues.

Anything would be worth trying to save something so precious.

"A Christian marriage book

Pretty much anything that could help in a Godly way.

I would mainly consult Christian friends, mostly christadelphian.

Family might feel too close to the situation, not constructive or unbiased"

"From experiencing greater than 40 years of marital problems – marriage improves as each person submits to the commandments of Christ.

He is the answer to every problem. Stubborn, selfish hearts miss out on the bliss God intended."

We really are too small and unorganized to participate in your survey. We have no board but discuss issues, problems, etc. as an entire group. As women and sisters, we try to be very supportive of one another in every possible way. I suspect we are fairly typical of ecclesias of our size.

I would turn to prayer and my Bible first. If this is done in faith with Biblical principles as our guide then we can trust those we turn to believing that God is helping us through them.