DistroWatch Weekly

A weekly opinion column and a summary of events from the distribution world

DistroWatch Weekly

DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 129, 5 December 2005

Welcome to this year's 49th issue of DistroWatch Weekly. New major releases of KDE, Firefox and Apache have prompted us to take a closer look at the major distribution's handling of package updates, the availability of backports and other related issues. Does your distribution provide backports for popular new software? Or do you have to wait for the next version bump to enjoy recently released packages? Also in this issue: an introduction to a GNOME-based Windows XP clone from Russia and a quick look at the excellent Archie Live CD. Finally, our November 2005 donation goes to the often-nominated KANOTIX project. Happy reading!

Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in ogg (5.17MB) or mp3 (5.44MB) format(courtesy of Shawn Milo).Join us atirc.freenode.net #distrowatch

One of the perceived qualities of a distribution is the willingness of its developers (or contributors) to provide "backports" of popular new applications for existing stable versions of their products. After all, many of us love to run the latest software - even if the only reason is to satisfy our curiosity about what's new and what has been improved. Last week's release of KDE 3.5 was one of those must-have versions for all fans of the popular desktop.

Of course, upgrading such a major piece of software is no small task. A universal method for installing new applications on Linux (and UNIX) is to compile them directly from source code. The advantage of this approach is that you can install a new version as soon as the source code is released, without having to wait for your distribution to provide pre-compiled binary packages. The disadvantage, besides the fact that compiling a large application suite might kill a whole day, is that the newly compiled application will by-pass the distribution's package management structures and might even introduce subtle bugs. Also, unless you are using a dedicated source-based distribution, such as Gentoo Linux, it is often difficult to uninstall a locally-compiled application.

If you are not a seasoned Linux user or if you don't run a source-based distribution, your best option is to wait for your distro's developers to release binary packages specifically compiled for your distribution. This is not always guaranteed, however. If you look through the KDE 3.5 FTP directory, you will notice that only three distributions have so far provided KDE 3.5 binary packages; these are Kubuntu, Slackware and SUSE. Of these, Kubuntu packages are only available for the most recent release (version 5.10), Slackware provides them for the two most recent releases (versions 10.1 and 10.2), and SUSE has built binary packages of KDE 3.5 for their four most recent releases (versions 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 and 10.0).

Although some would consider the above a very simplistic way to rate a Linux distribution, it does give an indication about the level of commitment a company or a project exerts to satisfy their users. Ironically, with all the recent rumours about Novell abandoning KDE in favour of GNOME, the reality is that SUSE remains one of the most KDE-centric distributions, with unmatched service of delivering the freshest KDE packages for as many as four most recent SUSE releases!

Of course, some distributions might provide alternative upgrade paths - Mandriva could use its Club structures to allow priority access to Club members, while Fedora contributors will probably make the new KDE 3.5 packages available from third-party repositories. Gentoo users can, of course, upgrade immediately by "emerging" KDE and users of Arch Linux can invoke "pacman" to get the latest KDE binaries. But if your distribution doesn't provide timely package upgrades, do you mind? Does this fact influence your distro choice? Or are you happy to just wait for your distribution's next release, perhaps with a better tested and bug-fixed KDE 3.5.1? Please discuss below.

* * * * *

Miscellaneous news: Interview with Branden Robinson, Linux XP

TuxJournal has published a 3-page interview with Branden Robinson, the current Debian GNU/Linux Project Leader: "When I finally got a computer capable of running the Linux kernel (read: an 80386-compatible or better processor), I immediately installed Slackware Linux on it from a cigar box full of 3.5-inch floppies that my dad had made for me. This was January of 1996. By February I had switched to Debian GNU/Linux, because I knew there were multiple distributions out there, and I wanted to exercise my freedom of choice. Debian appealed to me from the outset because of its affirmative commitment not just to producing a great operating system, but to assurance that that system would remain Free, so that people like me could learn how it worked and customize it to suit their needs." And while on the subject of Debian, here is a good article about the correct usage of the root account and sudo while administering a Debian system.

Ever since Linux has become a viable option to use on desktop computers, all sorts of attempts have been made to emulate the look and feel of the ubiquitous Windows desktop. One of the more recent efforts in this respect comes from a Russian project called Linux XP. This distribution has been around for a couple of years, but it appeared discontinued with no new releases and no site updates for a long time. However, its latest version is probably one of the best efforts to clone Microsoft Windows XP and emulate its look and feel (see screenshot below). Based on Fedora Core and complete with a heavily modified GNOME desktop and custom icon set, a single-CD release of Linux XP should be formally announced later this week (an older ISO image is available for download from this server). Warning: this is a Russian-only distribution.

Linux XP 2005 - if familiarity is essential (full image size: 620kB)

A new user forum for Linux users was unveiled today. Called TuxForums.org, the new online arena hopes to attract a large community of Linux users to discuss current issues and solve support problems on all major distributions. TuxForums.org provides discussion platforms for Debian, Gentoo, Fedora, Knoppix, Mandriva, Slackware, SUSE and Ubuntu, as well as more general hardware, software, installation, networking and programming topics. Whether you are looking to join a new Linux community or just wish to read through current discussions, TuxForums.org might be the perfect site to visit.

Featured distribution of the week: Archie Live CD

Archie Live CD

If you suspect that Archie Live CD has something to do with Arch Linux then you are not far from the truth. Formerly known as AL-AMLUG, the project has changed name in order to make the parent-child relationship more obvious and perhaps to attract users and developers who have been enlightened by the simplicity and purity of Arch Linux.

Archie is unique in the sense that it is not based on any of the big "top-level" distributions with their live CD offshoots, such as Debian/Knoppix, Slackware/SLAX or Mandriva/PCLinuxOS, which currently dominate the live CD scene. Also, since Arch is optimised for the i686 architecture, so is Archie, as its developers use the same binary packages that make up the current Arch Linux package tree. And like its parent, Archie also uses the simple, but fast and efficient "pacman" package manager, a good compromise between the complexity of Debian's APT and Slackware's bare-bones "pkgtool".

The most recent version of Archie Linux is 0.6rc2. It is based on the current pre-release of Arch Linux 0.7.1, so the package set making up the distribution is very up-to-date. The only available edition at the time of writing is a light-weight one with XFce and a relatively small collection of general-purpose desktop applications with a slight bias towards graphics manipulation (GIMP, Inkscape). There is no office suite or universal media player, although users can write documents in AbiWord and listen to music in Beep or XMMS. Firefox, Sylpheed, Gaim and XChat provide all the Internet tools most users will ever need and the distribution also ships with a good collection of wireless network drivers and ndiswrapper. The latest NVIDIA graphics driver is also included.

We found Archie 0.6 an impressive and versatile live CD with good hardware detection and a solid collection of essential applications. The developers chose an interesting theme with extra toolbar icons for pinning and shading windows (see screenshot below) - a nice, user-friendly touch. The live CD also includes a graphical hard disk installer, similar to the ones that ship with the most recent versions of MEPIS or PCLinuxOS, while power users will enjoy the availability of Archie-scripts designed to create a customised Arch-based live CD.

For more information about Archie Live CD please visit the project's home page at archie.dotsrc.org.

Turbolinux 11, code name "Fuji", has been formally released in Japan. The new version is based on kernel 2.6.13 with KDE 3.4.2 as its default desktop. It features improved compatibility with Windows for seamless integration into mixed-OS environments, better support for Japanese input and fonts, StarOffice 8, and real-time virus protection against Windows viruses. Turbolinux FUJI retails for ¥16,800, although a "Basic" edition (without StarOffice, ATOK Japanese input and anti-virus software) is also available for ¥5,800. An international edition of Turbolinux 11 is expected to be launched shortly. More information is available in an earlier product announcement, while the Turbolinux web site provides more comprehensive product pages (in Japanese) about the new release.

RR4 Linux 2.65.1

A new bug-fix release of the Gentoo-based RR4 Linux live DVD is out: "Ladies and gentlemen, geeks and hackers, Greeks and Romans, RR4 Linux 2.65.1 is spreading on the net! RR4 Linux is a powerful and installable Gentoo GNU/Linux live DVD based on kernel 2.6.14, KDE 3.4.3, GNOME 2.12.1, XFce 4.2.2 and Fluxbox 0.9.13, with extraordinary features like Internet Kiosk capabilities (using FreeNX), state of the art hardware detection, fast boot time, multimedia cutting edge support, 'Klik' unofficial support, and DVD to hard disk installation." The release announcement includes a complete list of changes since the earlier version 2.65.

Tao Live 4.03

A new version of Tao Live 4, a live CD based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4, has been released: "A new version of the Tao Live CD is available. Version 4.03 features: documentation for beginners (French and English); support for English (Canada and USA), French (Canada) and Spanish (Mexico) locales; kernel 2.6.9-22.0.1.SquashFS1; support for USB storage of userspace (still experimental). Tao Live uses a Squash filesystem to fit 2 GB of programs into a standard bootable CD. OpenOffice.org, Firefox, Gaim, XMMS, K3B and many other programs are included. A few boot options are currently available." Here is the full release announcement.

Wolvix 1.0.4

The Wolvix live CD has been updated to version 1.0.4: "Wolvix Desktop Edition 1.0.4 released. Release highlights: XFce 4.2.3.2, OpenOffice.org 2.0.0, Evolution Groupware Suite 2.4, Mozilla Firefox 1.5, Azureus 2.3.0.6, GnomeBaker 0.5.0, GnomeMeeting 1.2.2, lots of packages have been added from the Freerock GNOME project giving the release a more unison GTK look; better mime handling in Firefox and Xfe; many upgraded applications and libraries. I hope you all like this release, I've been working on it nonstop the last few weeks. The base is still SLAX 5.0.6 with the 2.6.12.2 kernel...." See the full release announcement for more information.

Linux From Scratch 6.1.1

Linux From Scratch 6.1.1 has been released: "The Linux From Scratch community is pleased to announce the release of LFS 6.1.1. This release includes fixes for all known errata since LFS-6.1 was released 4 months ago. You can read the book online, or download to read locally." Besides the usual book, the project also released a new Automated LFS (ALFS) profile, as well as an LFS 6.1.1 LiveCD: "The LFS LiveCD team is proud to announce the release of the x86-6.1.1-1 version of the LFS LiveCD. This version is built using LFS 6.1.1 and BLFS packages from the svn branch. Other new features include: XFce Terminal with helpful menus, including copy and paste; jhalfs 0.2 included; nALFS LFS 6.1.1 Profile; more new packages: rsync, sudo, wireless_tools."

Scientific Linux 4.2

Scientific Linux 4.2 for i386 and x86_64 processors is out: "Scientific Linux 4.2 was officially released. We want to thank all those tested, re-tested, and worked with the developers. This release might have taken longer than usual to be released, but it hopefully is one of the more stable. Scientific Linux release 4.2 is based on the rebuilding of RPMs out of SRPMs from [Red Hat] Enterprise 4 AS, including Update 2. Its biggest improvement over 4.1 would be the new yum 2.4, Yumex (a graphical front end for yum), and the various yum plugins." Find more details and links to release notes in the official announcements for i386 and x86_64 architectures.

Zenwalk Linux 2.0.1

Zenwalk Linux 2.0.1 has been released: "This release is based on the 2.6.14.2 kernel, with Reiser4 filesystem support and many enhancements and updates. Zenwalk 2.0.1 is the biggest jump in Zenwalk evolution since the beginning of the project. Main software updates are XFce 4.2.3.2, xine 1.1.1, Firefox 1.5, KDE 3.5 available from 'netpkg'. GTK has been updated to version 2.8.7, based on the Cairo library designed for a better use of display hardware acceleration. All GTK applications that can take advantage of Cairo were rebuilt or upgraded. Zenwalk 2.0.1 includes full OpenOffice.org 2.0...." Read the rest of the release announcement for more details.

ParallelKnoppix 2005-12-02

A new, security enhanced version of ParallelKnoppix was released over the weekend. From the changelog: "Passwords are reset for 'root' and 'knoppix'; RSA keys are regenerated; the 'knoppix' user is removed from /etc/sudoers. The cluster is secure for connection to the internet using a second network interface on the master node, and can be reached by ssh, scp, etc. The cluster is not secure from damage by malicious / incompetent users with physical access to the nodes, since they can still easily get root access (or hit the nodes with a hammer!) The security enhancements are new and only lightly tested. Please report means of gaining root access from hosts outside the cluster." Visit the project's home page for further details about the new release.

Nonux 2.1

The development of Nonux, a Slackware-based distribution designed for office use and optimised for Dutch speakers, continues at a rapid pace. The new version 2.1 comes with an updated kernel 2.6.14.3 and the latest Firefox browser 1.5. Several bug fixes and additional display options for NVIDIA graphics drivers have been implemented. Users who experience problems starting up the graphical part of the system can now try new boot parameters as documented on the distribution's web site. For more information please consult the release announcement on the project's news page (in Dutch).

Frugalware and Haansoft have published roadmaps leading towards their respective stable releases. Frugalware Linux 0.4, code name "Wanda" is scheduled for release at the end of March 2006, with the first preview release expected later this week. Similarly, Haansoft is also aiming (page in Korean) for a late March release of its Workstation edition of Haansoft Linux 2006. The product's first beta was formally released last week; this will be followed by two more betas and two release candidates.

We are pleased to announce that, based on the reader feedback during the past month, the recipient of our November 2005 donation is the KANOTIX project.

Although KANOTIX is primarily a Linux distribution and live CD, its unique features, superior hardware support and usability enhancements have turned it into one of the best-loved Knoppix-based derivatives available today. Indeed, KANOTIX is now used as a base for other distributions (e.g. Auditor Security Linux, Linux-EduCD, Tilix) while several other open source projects now use the heavily-patched KANOTIX kernel to power their own distributions (e.g. Kurumin Linux and its derivatives). Even the Knoppix developers have backported some KANOTIX innovations, such as the hard disk installer, into their own product. As such KANOTIX has proven itself to be a valuable distribution and live CD not only to those who use it, but also to the wider Linux community.

As always, our monthly donations programme is a joint initiative between DistroWatch and two online shops selling low-cost CDs and DVDs with Linux, BSD and other open source software - LinuxISO.co.uk and LinuxCD.org, each of which contributed US$50 towards this month's donation. Both stores have an excellent selection and latest releases at very reasonable prices. Next time you need to order your favourite Linux or BSD CDs, get them from LinuxCD.org or, if you are in the United Kingdom, from LinuxISO.co.uk.

This is the PayPal receipt for the donation to KANOTIX:

Dear DistroWatch.com,
This email confirms that you have paid donate -at- kanotix.com 210.00 EUR using PayPal. The exchange rate for this purchase is 1 USD = 0.832260EUR.

Since the launch of the DistroWatch Donations Programme in March 2004, we have donated a total of US$5,855 to various open source software projects.

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New on the waiting list

Bentux Linux. Bentux Linux is a new Brazilian distribution for desktop and server computers. Based on Knoppix.

Movitos USB Linux. Movitos is a new USB and CD live Linux distribution for desktop users. Focusing on desktop usage, and making it easy for Windows users to try Linux, Movitos includes all the tools you need daily for checking your email, browsing the web, writing documents, doing calculations, and planning your time, as well as listening to music, watching movies and playing games. Movitos is multi-lingual (English, French, German).

OCSID. OCSID (Open Community Slackware Installation DVD) is a DVD with all the official Slackware packages untouched, with Freerock GNOME and some other packages that usually people want but aren't included in Slackware (amaroK, Postfix, etc). OCSID uses kernel 2.6 by default.

And with this we'll say good-bye until next Monday. We hope you've enjoyed this issue of DistroWatch Weekly!

Ladislav Bodnar

Reader Comments

1 • Woohoo! (by war on 2005-12-05 13:51:47 GMT from United States)
another great issue of DW, keep up the good work!2 • Great to hear Kanotix got the donation (by Mr. O on 2005-12-05 13:53:30 GMT from United States)
Great that Distrowatch Weekly is up!!! Great news that Kanotix got the donation!!!Keep up the great work, Ladislav and staff!!!3 • Donation to Kanotix (by d00m3d on 2005-12-05 14:06:10 GMT from Hong Kong)
After waiting for months and months, Kanotix can finally receive DW's donation. Good decision!4 • Russian Linux-XP disk (by Boris Kazak on 2005-12-05 14:14:14 GMT from Russian Federation)
"the single-CD release of Linux XP 2005 will be formally announced later this week (the ISO image is already available for download..."-----------------------------At the site indicated the .iso file and the .md5 file are more than a year old - dated Nov 25, 2004). Hardly a new version - if not some stupid mistake about the malfunctioning calendar.

I'll wait a week or 2, maybe the files will be updated...

Best wishesBNK5 • KDE 3.5 (by Sorin Catana on 2005-12-05 14:23:11 GMT from Canada)
ArchLinux provided KDE 3.5 the very day it was released...6 • Kanotix and Kurumin (by Alejandro on 2005-12-05 14:29:28 GMT from Israel)
As a Kurumin user, I always felt Kanotix was (and is) a superior work of engineering. Good thing they have your (our) recognition.Also, could you try to interview Kurumin's Carlos Morimoto? He's been quite silent on his site since the release of Kurumin 4.1, and he's maybe one of the top 5 distro-smiths in the world.7 • On backports... (by Kim on 2005-12-05 14:33:14 GMT from Germany)
I'm glad I don't need backports; I practically only use Fedora rawhide and/or SUSE Factory. The about a dozen Debian boxen I'm on are administered by people who roll their own backports, thus no trouble for me either.. :)8 • Zenwalk 2.01 (by Caraibes on 2005-12-05 14:41:44 GMT from Dominican Republic)
Currently using PCLinuxOS .92, but yesterday I downloaded the new Zenwalk 2.01...I look forward to test it as it is a very interesting project.9 • Gentoo miscellany (by Ed Borasky on 2005-12-05 14:42:52 GMT from United States)
1. I was actually running the KDE 3.5 release candidate for a while before Gentoo started delivering KDE 3.5 itself. I haven't dug into the release notes to see what's new, though.

2. Gentoo marked gcc 3.4.4 stable over the weekend. Guess what? If you upgrade, you have to recompiile the whole system! In fact, if you follow the instructions posted on their web site, you recompile the core packages *twice* and the packages you've added -- all of them -- once. Well, as they say, "it's not like your processor has anything better to do."

3. It looks like the Gentoo installer is coming along nicely. I've tested the most recent version and it seems to work just fine, despite the dire warnings about its stability. It's a Gnome-based live CD; I don't think KDE will fit.10 • No subject (by Benjamin Hackl on 2005-12-05 14:44:02 GMT from Austria)
Great DW again, thank you Ladislav for constant quality news.There is an error in donation list, should be 11/05 for Kanotix, just for accuracy ;-)11 • RE: 4 • Russian Linux-XP disk (by ladislav on 2005-12-05 14:53:20 GMT from Taiwan)
Doh, you are right. I saw an announcement on the project's sister site which only had day/month, no year, so I assumed they meant this year. But maybe the news is already one-year old. Anyway, it was fun to play with the distro.12 • Linux-XP (by Curious on 2005-12-05 15:00:33 GMT from Australia)
Website=> http://www.linux-xp.com/(Ends up pointing to the same place)

Would be interesting to see. But I highly suspect there would be alot of hype about it, and could end up in disaster IF this distro doesn't deliver as it says.

If it does, then you could have a winner here.(I'm not expecting anything from it, and waiting for the English version)...

If you don't expect anything, then you won't be let down if it fails. : )13 • suse backports (by dtr on 2005-12-05 15:05:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
Well suse provides ~KDE backports but:

* backports must be installed manually which is a bit complicated* there is no firefox 1.5 nor oo.org 2.0 final14 • nvidia (by lpbbear on 2005-12-05 15:14:43 GMT from United States)
Would it be possible to add to your search database which distros are using the official nvidia and ati drivers. I think that would help those of us seeking viable test candidates for gaming systems.Thanks15 • Backports (by Mark W. Tomlinson on 2005-12-05 15:43:22 GMT from United States)
While I usually agree with Canonical/Ubuntu's position of (usually) not backporting apps between releases, I do think that "major" updates such as Firefox (1.07 > 1.5) should be looked at for possible exceptions. I downloaded the FF 1.5 tar.gz file from Mozilla & untarred it to my home dir for a test. Since it seemed to work okay, I then installed it in /usr/lib for "global" use.

I understand that backporting and the potential for breakage is best approached with fear & trembling but I think the demand for such a widely used app would justify consideration in this case.

Just a thought...

Mark

PS - another good DWW, Ladislav!16 • sudo make comment (by guhappy on 2005-12-05 15:49:20 GMT from United States)
Good article on the usage of root and sudo especially since I'm a noob. I will try the Zenwalk (formerly MiniSlack) distro sometime this week since I'm a distro junkie. Linux XP looks nice, but will it be up to par with the current Windows user friendly distros (i.e. Xandros, Linsprire and etc). Finally, this has been another great DistroWeekly issue to jump start my monday. :-)17 • nvidia (by lpbbear on 2005-12-05 15:52:52 GMT from United States)
Would it be possible to add to your search database which distros are using the official nvidia and ati drivers. I think that would help those of us seeking viable test candidates for gaming systems.Thanks18 • sudo make comment (by guhappy on 2005-12-05 16:03:18 GMT from United States)
Good article on the usage of root and sudo especially since I'm a noob. I will try the Zenwalk (formerly MiniSlack) distro sometime this week since I'm a distro junkie. Linux XP looks nice, but will it be up to par with the current Windows user friendly distros (i.e. Xandros, Linsprire and etc). Finally, this has been another great DistroWeekly issue to jump start my monday. :-)19 • Fedora (by schumaher on 2005-12-05 16:04:34 GMT from Slovenia)
You forgot Fedora Directory server20 • Another forum/community recently unveiled (by Josh King on 2005-12-05 16:16:16 GMT from United States)
If you're a user of Debian, or any derivative (Ubuntu, MEPIS, Kanotix, etc.) you may want to try DebCentral too. While the forum is only one part of the site, there's also lots of other things to get involved with such as news posts and a Wiki.

So, if this description fits you, or maybe you're just curious stop by and join us!

http://debcentral.org21 • Backporting: a MUST for me (by gabmatrix on 2005-12-05 16:34:42 GMT from Canada)
Thanks for bringing the point about backports Ladislav!

As linux distros constantly evolves, I think it's really important to be able to get the more recent versions of packages. Off course, it's not for everyone as it can gets into stability issues...

However, there's a distro for everyone's need. I myself use Arch Linux because we have a very good compromise between stability and bleeding edge!

However, it's a shame that there's isn't any "serious" contender to Arch Linux on that point. There is Gentoo (with his lengthy compile time) but that's about it for being *really* bleeding edge...

Anyway, great issue as usual and a good point to think about!22 • Backporting in Mandriva (by Leo on 2005-12-05 16:49:56 GMT from United States)
Good point Ladislav. I am a Mandriva user, and I would love to be able to run, say, firefox 1.5 - no way. In fact, I can do it in windozeat work, and not at home in my lovely mandriva desktop. Same with kde 3.5

OTOH, it is understandable that they may not want to backport: it brings the possibility of regressions and a support nightmare. But SUSE, Kubuntu and Slack have been doing it and they seem fine

Maybe the idea is to put an ftp directory called "unsupported upgrades", and drop there these sorts of updates. If people want them, they use them at their own risk. Downgrading is not a problem if you need to in Mandriva, using the excellent SMART package manager.

Anyways, the more I look into it, the more I feel like switching to kubuntu. We'll see ...

Cheers23 • Backports, Ubuntu, Firefox, and all (by John Dong on 2005-12-05 17:01:28 GMT from United States)
Well, I've been through it all, Backports and such. The conclusions I've reached through my experience:

(1) Backporting is a sweet way for us to enjoy the hot new things in the Open Source world without compromising stability like running a development/CVS/snapshot release.

(2) Backporting can be a major PITA if not done correctly! There are lots of compatibility issues that stem from poorly or recklessly done backports.

(3) Developers know what they're talking about, and what they're doing. Nobody's voice is being ignored. Most backports are just a handful of commands (just a few minutes of interactive work), so there is not much EFFORT in the actual backporting process. So if a developer doesn't backport a certain package, it's been done with GOOD REASON.

For example, Firefox 1.5 has been a very popular request for the Ubuntu Backports project. However, backporting Firefox also requires recompiling over 50 source packages in the Ubuntu collection, and even then there is NO GUARANTEE that the recompiled packages would work correctly. As of now, everything from Mono apps (that use HTML rendering) to the GNOME Help viewer is broken by recklessly compiling a set of firefox backports, just to give you a vew at the degree of breakage.

Sometimes, there is more to a package than meets the eye --especially true of Firefox. It's not just a browser (though that's what most people think) -- it's an embeddable HTML rendering library that's used at the core level by a majority of the Linux desktop programs that utilize HTML rendering. There is a lot more work than meets the eye when you do something. I hope now people see that the "I unpacked the damn 1.5 tarball, what's so f***ing difficult about backporting it?" argument does NOT work!

John DongUbuntu Backports Project Leader24 • No subject (by Nameles at 2005-12-05 17:36:15 GMT from Canada)
"But if your distribution doesn't provide timely package upgrades, do you mind? Does this fact influence your distro choice? Or are you happy to just wait for your distribution's next release, perhaps with a better tested and bug-fixed KDE 3.5.1? Please discuss below. "

For me, having the latest and greatest is important. In my case, Linux is mainly a hobby rather than a really serious tool for productive work so I can afford a bit of instability in exchange for my curiosity for the latest and greatest. I've found PCLinuxOS to be a really good in this regard. Texstar is really good at updating the core packages very quickly upon their release yet the quality of his work is outstanding. Updates rarely break, and the odd time that they do, the support is awsome. Non core applications, such as Gnome for example, are available but are not a priority for updates on a regular basis. This point does influence my choice to some extent, because I do prefer Gnome, but overall the quality of Texstar's work keeps me coming back after trying out other flavours, despite the fact that some stuff I prefer is not up to date. As usual with Linux, it's all about personal preferences.25 • Kanotix Donation (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-12-05 17:38:31 GMT from Italy)
Thank for donating to my favourite distro, Ladislav :-)26 • Typo in OCSID (by IMQ on 2005-12-05 17:50:07 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, there is a typo for the OCSID.

OSCID: OCSID....

should be OCSID. OCSID

Another good DW issue. Thanks for continued effort to bring news about Linux/BSD to the greater worldwide community.27 • Backporting as seen by a newbie (by Walt on 2005-12-05 19:10:01 GMT from United States)
Ladislav:

You received a lot of comments on the Backporting item, mostly from people who apparently have some experience with it. I thought I should write something from the opposite end of the spectrum. New desktop users are, after all, what the Linux world seems to want at right now.

I work as a lawyer, at a company where I'm stuck with Windows 2000, MS Office, and corporate email (Lotus Notes). My major computing accomplishments in this environment in the last 5 years have been installing OOo and Firefox on a supposedly locked-down configuration, and finding Loftmail(dot)com as a Web-based email service that isn't blocked by the firewall (which apparently blocks by domain name).

Ever since Mandrake 8.1, I've used Mandrake and now PCLinuxOS at home as much as possible for word processing, spreadsheets, Internet, and working with graphic and audio files. I still need Windows at home for voice recognition, anything more than simply playing video files, running some browser plugins, and burning some types of CDs. I'd have to say my major Linux accomplishments have been using PLF with PCLinuxOS and, only by extensive trial and error, getting Password Gorilla to run on PCLinuxOS. (I have it set up to point to the database on my Windows partition since obviously I can't get the Windows version to do the opposite, but just to get it to launch the first time took at least an hour. I find that I need to have Password Gorilla and tclkit icons on my desktop, and drop the Gorilla icon onto the tclkit icon.)

Well, those were long digressions to get to the point of saying that your article and the comments on Backporting explained to me in plain English some of the reasons why I have trouble finding and installing current versions of packages. Unfortunately, I really think that, until there is a decent Linux equivalent of the Windows program-installation executable file, desktop Linux will never win over more than a minisule percentage of users like me, who are willing to try and to study such things to a "reasonable" extent but are seriously put off by the trouble involved. I don't care a whole lot about bells and whistles; I want a distro that has Firefox 1.5 and OOo 2.0 today, and will have the next point releases tomorrow, and on which I can install and actually run a simple program like Password Gorilla.

Your article reinforced an idea I've had for several months that SUSE would suit me better, but the comments from dtr (comment #13) make me think maybe not. Does anyone have any suggestions for such a distro? Ubuntu/Kubuntu seems to require a lot of work just to have functioning plugins and codecs; not really esoteric work, but many more steps than should be necessary. "Out of the box," MEPIS, PCLinuxOS, and many other fine distributions only offer a fraction of the packages available from or included with SUSE, Ubuntu/Kibuntu, Mandriva, Fedora, etc, so again a lot of fiddling is going to be involved in installing some of the less-than-major applications I regularly use (such as Quikshow and Krusader). And, unless the packages come from the developer, there's always the risk that they will trash something else.

I read DistroWatch every day. Thanks for the great work.

Walt28 • nvidia (and kde3.5) (by kl3rk on 2005-12-05 19:15:22 GMT from United States)
I have to agree with lpbbear - I think it would be really great if there were a method of searching the database for distros that include the official nvidida and/or ati drivers. :) Extend the functionality of the site a bit... Also, anyone here have anything positive to report about distros that are including kde 3.5? Ubuntu user here, and while I have not tried the Kubuntu packages, I did compile it myself with konstruct, and yeesh! Problems from the get-go. I really like kde, years ago I switched from Redhat to Mandrake simply because I couldn't compile the damn thing myself (even now I still think it's a bitch without konstruct) and was a devoted user for YEARS. When I heard all the hubub about Gnome 2.12 I had to check it out and I have to say I believe it is the most functional, elegant desktop enviro I've used to date. I will not however claim to be a gnome die-hard - I think KDE has a lot going for it, but when I compiled it on my Ubuntu box it was nothing but flickers and lag and finally a total crash when I attempted to configure the screensaver (of all things)... So I'm done until an even-numbered release, unless one of y'all can provide some positive feedback for a particular distro... :)29 • backports (by DNAku at 2005-12-05 19:26:57 GMT from Belgium)
I run the current branch of Frugalware and I have no need for backports.Firefox 1.5 was added to the repo the day after it got released.Same with KDE 3.5 (which I personally don't use).

There is a YaST source for the KDE backports available. Or if you're a command-line freak, install apt.

> * there is no firefox 1.5 nor oo.org 2.0 final

OOo 2.0 final is available for 9.3 and 10.0 via normal online update. Firefox 1.5 rpms are available in ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/projects/mozilla/ or via equivalent apt source.31 • Gnome-GTK Windows XPClone? Novells answer to losing KDE and QT? (by anon on 2005-12-05 19:56:47 GMT from United States)
Novell should scarf up the source code to this GTK based Windows Clone and use it as the needed key piece to ease their move away from QT's dual license. In any case, It's a very much needed addition to GTK's desktop offerings. Not everyone who would, and do prefer GTK's fully GPL'ed license wants to move to a Apple styled (GNOME) desktop.I hope someone (who-ever) moves to further it's (XPclone Desktop) development in earnest. It sure would make all the other major changes that new Linux users must face less daunting if the desktops look and feel is more familiar to them. IMHO...32 • Backports (by Pumpino on 2005-12-05 20:00:33 GMT from Australia)
I run SUSE 10.0 on both my systems, and I love using apt4rpm, using the mirror at ftp://ftp4.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/10.0-i386/.I'm running KDE 3.5 with Firefox 1.5, Thunderbird 1.5 beta, k3b 0.12.8, Amarok 1.3.6, OpenOffice 2.0 final, Gimp 2.2.9 and Licq 1.3.2. Apache 2.0.55 and 2.2 beta are also available.

I LOVE being able to run the latest versions of these desktop applications. I find that they're available on the above mirror via apt-get in less than 24 hours of the program being released (this is especially the case for k3b and Amarok.33 • Gnome-GTK Windows XPClone? Novells answer to losing KDE and QT? (by anon on 2005-12-05 20:02:01 GMT from United States)
Novell should scarf up the source code to this GTK based Windows Clone and use it as the needed key piece to ease their move away from QT's dual license. In any case, It's a very much needed addition to GTK's desktop offerings. Not everyone who would, and do prefer GTK's fully GPL'ed license wants to move to a Apple styled (GNOME) desktop.I hope someone (who-ever) moves to further it's (XPclone Desktop) development in earnest. It sure would make all the other major changes that new Linux users must face less daunting if the desktops look and feel is more familiar to them. IMHO...34 • Thanks for your donation to Kanotix (by eco2geek at 2005-12-05 20:31:20 GMT from United States)
(Hopefully my HTML links will work :-)

As an avid Kanotix user, I thank you for your monetary support for Kanotix.

Regarding the backports issue, we Debian Sid users are in a holding pattern waiting for Sid to sort itself out (see, for example, http://www.kanotix.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2... this post on the Kanotix board for more info) before we can safely do a "dist-upgrade" (which is Debian jargon for using Debian's package manager to bring all the software on one's computer current). Although KDE 3.5 is available from the http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/docs/ Alioth server, it probably won't make it into Debian Sid for a while.

Those of us committed to using Debian's package management system don't really want to mess things up by compiling from source...so we must be patient. :-)
35 • Mod John Dong INSIGHTFUL (by Leo on 2005-12-05 20:33:35 GMT from United States)
Guys

Please see comment #23 by John Dong, it presents a very informed view of why and when backporting or not. Ladislava: it may be a good idea to include a summary of his summary in the next DWW.

You've got to love the Ubuntu folks.

CheersLeo36 • packages and pclinuxos (by James LaRue at 2005-12-05 20:38:16 GMT from United States)
Another statement in support of PCLinuxOS. Version .92 came out just a week or so ago. SINCE then, Texstar added KDE 3.5 -- just a quick Synaptic session away.

I've wrestled with other distros whose respositories were shallow. My home Linux machine is a tool for learning and experimentation. Having a distro that not only gets you the latest-and-greatest, but offers packages in an easy-to-use format, has become a major desideratum for a distro.37 • Slackware and KDE 3.5.0 (by Victor Keranov on 2005-12-05 22:25:51 GMT from Bulgaria)
You said:"If you look through the KDE 3.5 FTP directory, you will notice that only three distributions have so far provided KDE 3.5 binary packages; these are Kubuntu, Slackware and SUSE. Of these, Kubuntu packages are only available for the most recent release (version 5.10), Slackware provides them for the two most recent releases (versions 10.1 and 10.2),..."But "provided" and "provides" is not correct for Slackware. These Slackware packages are NOT official.In fact the latest KDE in Slackware Current is 3.4.2... The same as in latest stable 10.2So there is not even 3.4.3 in Current. No KDE updates at all...Those packages on KDE's FTP are UNOFFICIAL.Well I am using them and they work fine. Besides Slackware is my favourite distro and it is normal. Something new goes there only when it is bugfree as much as possible... And tested enough ;)38 • offer of help with distrowatch site (by justin randell on 2005-12-05 22:38:03 GMT from Australia)
hi ladislav,

(i tried to email this to you, but it keeps getting rejected, so i'm going to post it here in the hope that it will get to you.)

i wanted to offer my services to help implement some features for thedistrowatch site. as someone who uses the site on a daily basis, i'dlike to give something back.

also, i have a couple of itches i'd like to scratch, but if thesefeatures are not in line with what you are planning/want to implement,then fair enough.

specifically, i'd like to add some ajax/javascript features to the front page:

1. page hit ranking- changing the time period fires off a javascript http request, whichsends back only the data needed to redraw the list

2. choose distribution/type distribution name- replace these two boxes with a key change driven drop down. storethe list of distributions in javascript in the browser, then implementan onkeychange event listener.

3. implement something similar to 2. for news filtering options

comments? if this goes well, then there's likely more enhancements we could add along these lines to make the pages load faster.

i'd be happy to help out with other site enhancements on a case by case basis.

cheers,justin

ICQ 244 909 636yahoo jr_cckaim justinPrandell39 • Backports (by desertViking on 2005-12-05 22:51:34 GMT from United States)
I was confused when I read your article that said only 3 distributions had binaries for 3.5 KDE available.

I recall that I upgraded my Arch workstations (pacman -Syu) and picked up the 3.5 version a day or so after its release.

Commentor 5 also picked up on this, but with all the other noise, reinforcing the point seemed appropriate.40 • A small ammendment to #23 (by John Dong on 2005-12-05 22:53:10 GMT from United States)
One more thing about backporting:

I'd like to emphasize the importance of COMPATBILITY again. There are two aspects of compatibility: A platform for 3rd party developers to target, and consideration for the consequences of backports to users:

(1) As much as your distribution is able to package OSS (or even restricted) packages, others will at times need to make packages for Linux themselves. These could be authors of less-popular OSS software, or even large commercial vendors wanting support of the Linux community.

Either way, when they package, they need a PLATFORM that they can depend on. For example, if I am a commercial vendor that wants to make packages for RHEL4, I expect the package to work with RHEL4, no matter how much of RHEL4's software I must link to. That's one thing enterprise-grade Linux is good at -- providing a well targetable uniform platform. For the life of RHEL4, I can expect that the package I made 12 months ago will continue to function on this platform :)

Ubuntu also tries to be that way, though we certainly do make more releases! Through the 18 (or more) months of support, we strive to make each release a targetable enterprise-grade platform. As a results, Backports has to be careful not to introduce incompatibilities in the process of providing updates. In the Firefox example, backporting Firefox 1.5 would cause any 3rd party package linked to the Ubuntu Firefox Gecko engine to need recompiling (meanwhile they'll crash on attempts to use Gecko), which is something I can NOT do. Recompiling the 55 source packages in the Ubuntu repositories: sure, I have the authority to request that done. Telepathically recompile every 3rd party package that's made and will be made for Ubuntu Breezy 5.10 within the next 16 months? Sorry, don't think I can do that ;)

(2) A part of the Code of Conduct (the core philosophy behind Ubuntu) is to be considerate. Backports has to be considerate to other Ubuntu users, and the consequence to every user is weighed before a backport is officially made. For example, consider the Firefox backport example again (wow, this is becoming a popular example): Many people heavily customize their Firefox profiles, usually through extensions. Most of us Firefox 1.5 adopters know that the Extension API in 1.5 is NOT compatible with 1.0.x. As a result, many extensions that work fine in 1.0 will not run when Firefox is upgraded to 1.5.

At the same time, there are many Ubuntu users who use Ubuntu as an enterprise-class workstation OS for getting job-critical work done. For me to decide to introduce a new package that breaks a core application for them is not considerate to them, and causes them countless headaches.

Maybe I and many of us amongst here are Linux hobbyists/enthusiasts that can deal with (or even enjoy) the occasional breakdown and fix here and there, but others cannot accept this and consider it downtime.

Until there is a user-friendly way to allow users to make a conscious decision as to what "potentially incompatible Backports" to install, I will tread very cautiously and only provide absolutely safe, top-quality packages to Backports users. Those hobbyists amongst us can use Backporting scripts (like ubp-build.py [google]) to make their own backport packages (oh boy, I think I have 50+ of those installed at the moment!)

Ok, I'm done ranting. I hope we've all seen the "other side" of providing Backports that is often drowned out in the demands for backports of the hottest and greatest.

John DongUbuntu Backports Team Leader41 • Puppy Linux Donation (by Anonymous on 2005-12-06 00:02:54 GMT from United States)
Hel Ladislav!I have to recommend Puppy Linux for your next donation.I'm no expert, but it definitely has a fun feel to it.Everyone should check it out...it's a small distro with power and massive potential...and customizable too!!!42 • Klik (by Leo on 2005-12-06 03:00:27 GMT from United States)
BTW, I installed firefox 1.5 in my user account (as a regular) user simply typing: klik://firefox in my Konqueror (Of course I had to install the klik client before, but that took a few seconds by following the one-line recipe in the klik web page)

Autopackage is probably a good way to go for these sort of major package too, haven't tried it recently though ...43 • Klik (2) (by Leo on 2005-12-06 04:15:46 GMT from United States)
On a side note, it is amazing how fast html rendering is on Firefox 1.5 - OTOH, plugins such as Flash are not working. But the beauty of klik is that I can still use the older version installed by Mandriva -- three cheers to the klik team (and whoever packaged this firefox version)44 • Klik (3) (by Leo on 2005-12-06 04:30:57 GMT from United States)
Sorry, but this is spoiling me allright. I went to a webpage that uses Flash, Firefox told me I was missiing a plugin, asked me if I wanted to install, I sedd yes, 15 seconds later the plugin was installed (saved in my ~/.mozilla/plugins) and the page was reloaded correctly and the plugin used. OUTSTANDING !45 • geexbox donation (by mike on 2005-12-06 04:35:41 GMT from Canada)
I recomment geexbox for the next monthly donation46 • Walt's request (by Dave on 2005-12-06 06:05:29 GMT from Australia)
Walt the lawyer asked for suggestions about how to workaround the backports problem and be able to implement new features in a timely manner.

As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong), there's really only 2 broad solutions to the problem:- recompile all your apps as static images, with all libraries accessed by the application lumped into a single application executable (or application-specific directory structure). That way, if your app need version 4 of LIBRARY-X and your system has version 3.3 installed, your app will grab its own copy of version 4 and use that, while everything else on your system uses version 3.3. Downside: all your apps get much bigger, due to the requirement to have a separate version of e.g. LIBRARY-X compiled into every application that uses it. Another downside: because you've potentially got several different versions of some libraries loaded at the same time, your memory use is going to go up- switch to a distribution such as Gentoo, which is source-based and lets you recompile *everything* on your system when libraries get updated. Downside: recompiling a complete system can take a while (e.g. overnight) even with a fast CPU. Upside: no more distribution upgrades; by design, Gentoo can be "progressively upgraded" so that it's always at the "current" version.

I switched to Gentoo on one of my home systems for exactly this reason - I want to be able to use the latest versions of apps without stuff breaking, I'm sick of always having to upgrade to the latest version of a distro (and spend hours reconfiguring my desktop back to the way it was) to get around the problem, and I can live with recompiling Gentoo every so often for the privilege. While getting Gentoo going initially is complex and time consuming, the documentation is outstanding and so far I'm very happy with the outcome.47 • rawhide - backports (by jlc on 2005-12-06 06:06:44 GMT from United States)
rawhide

Seems pretty up2date to me ;)48 • freebsd 6.0 - backports (by jlc on 2005-12-06 06:11:38 GMT from United States)
Pretty much the same here - as far as keeping up to date

gnome-2.12.2firefox-1.5

If I'm going to use a source based distro I'll use freebsd, I ran gentoo for a couple years and just don't care much for there approach. You have to build world on bsd doesn't take for ever and you don't have to run it 2x. If your in a crunch and don't want to build your pkg's from source you can use binarys too.49 • Why does somebody always spread the Qt licencing nonsense? (by anon on 2005-12-06 09:24:50 GMT from Romania)
> Novell should scarf up the source code to this GTK based > Windows Clone and use it as the needed key piece to ease their > move away from QT's dual license.

Qt doesn't have a 'dual licence', it has two licences, this is called 'dual licensing'. One of them is the GPL. Just like MySQL.

I'm afraid you got this bit backwards. GTK's licence is not the GPL, it's the Lesser GPL. Only Qt is GPL.50 • backports (by dukeinlondon on 2005-12-06 10:24:48 GMT from United States)
Backports matter tremendously, especially for some core packages. SUSE provided a OO.org update to 2.0 (through the YOU channel) and has packaged firefox 1.5 (manual install though). I am not sure I want to upgrade to kde 3.5 just now. I might wait for SUSE 10.1 for that.

I dropped mandrake for debian unstable at the time because Mandrake would NEVER do that, not even for club members. They might have changed their stance now.

For non core apps, I think klik is the way to go. Self contained packages, limited impact, well, there is hardly any downside is there ?51 • GTK is LGPL aka commercial friendly. QT is not! (by cdrworm on 2005-12-06 10:43:42 GMT from United States)
Developing QT or KDE proprietary applications can be costly to software developers.

GTK doesnt put those cost prohibitive license on the table. Proprietary software developers can make proprietary software for free with the LGPL license.52 • I wnat them free (by anon on 2005-12-06 11:55:43 GMT from Romania)
>Developing QT or KDE proprietary applications can be costly to >software developers.

>GTK doesnt put those cost prohibitive license on the table. >Proprietary software developers can make proprietary software for >free with the LGPL license.

As a user I don't like this. I don't want proprietary software, I want Free Software. GTK's licensing is a threat to my interests :-P53 • newbie (by Devol Caston on 2005-12-06 12:37:44 GMT from United States)
Just discover your site, what a GREAT site.54 • Klik (3) (by Leo on 2005-12-06 14:04:39 GMT from United States)
Sorry, but this is spoiling me allright. I went to a webpage that uses Flash, Firefox told me I was missiing a plugin, asked me if I wanted to install, I sedd yes, 15 seconds later the plugin was installed (saved in my ~/.mozilla/plugins) and the page was reloaded correctly and the plugin used. OUTSTANDING !55 • Re: I wnat them free (by Ariszló on 2005-12-06 14:25:09 GMT from Hungary)
I agree. GTK's LGPL license is less free than Qt's GPL license. LGPL gives more freedom to commercial vendors and less to users. That's why it is called the "lesser" license.

Qt's other license, the commercial one, is more restrictive to commercial vendors than the LGPL. Commercial apps using GTK or Qt are equally restrictive to users.56 • Klik (3) (by Leo on 2005-12-06 14:31:25 GMT from United States)
Sorry, but this is spoiling me allright. I went to a webpage that uses Flash, Firefox told me I was missiing a plugin, asked me if I wanted to install, I sedd yes, 15 seconds later the plugin was installed (saved in my ~/.mozilla/plugins) and the page was reloaded correctly and the plugin used. OUTSTANDING !57 • Kanotix (by Chris Hildebrandt on 2005-12-06 14:49:40 GMT from Austria)
Thank you Ladislav and all supporters of Kanotix for this donation and the publicity going with it! The least we could do was to post a "Thank You!" press release which can be found at a href="http://kanotix.com/">our web site.58 • GenieOS (by Stephen on 2005-12-06 15:09:42 GMT from United States)
Anyone working with this?

http://genieos.toluenterprises.com59 • For backports (by Victor Keranov on 2005-12-06 16:28:56 GMT from Bulgaria)
John Dong, the Ubuntu Backports Project Leader, said that it is not so easy to backport a package like Firefox 1.5He said it depends on more than 40 other packages.And I think that I got the point and maybe he is right.Well something makes me still think he is not.

How is it possible to backport a whole new version of KDE a day after it was released? Maybe KDE's packages are less important than a single web browser? Or there are less dependancies? I think KDE's dependancies are even more... A lot more that a browser could have.But we have a whole new KDE just a day after it was released. And a new browser... We have to wait probaby a month.Looks strange to me.60 • No subject (by warpengi on 2005-12-06 17:08:47 GMT from Canada)
I want to add support for lpbbear and cl3rk. Knowing which distros offer the latest video drivers for gaming is important.61 • KDE 3.5 for Mandriva (by Bryan on 2005-12-06 17:20:19 GMT from United States)
I am sure that the official Mandriva developers will eventually put out KDE 3.5 for club members, but Seer of Souls has KDE 3.5 rpms built on their website and available through a separate urpmi repository. See their website (http://seerofsouls.com/) and thanks to hawkwind, moonie, and the whole crew for their tireless efforts.

martalli62 • Re: #59, For backports (by Leo on 2005-12-06 17:53:55 GMT from United States)
> How is it possible to backport a whole new version of KDE a day after it was released? > Maybe KDE's packages are less important than a single web browser?

I guess the difference is that KDE is pretty much self-contained. If you (as a user) decide to upgrade KDE, you upgrade the whole thing.

Firefox, as John pointed out, is used by many other programs. And the extensions system is so decentralized, that upgrading it will break many users. This is different than the KDE case. Here, upgrading a web browser would mean having to upgrade a bunch of other things. And what is worse, you have to really test the upgrade, even if things compile, they need to be tested. He considers this to be excessive. Makes sense to me.

But I am planning to stick with GenieOS and PCLinuxOS only, because Zenwalk is way too buggy, even though it's an interesting project, and its community is really very friendly and helpfull...64 • KDE Kubuntu Backports (by John Dong on 2005-12-06 20:32:16 GMT from United States)
Well, from KDE 3.4 to 3.5 there were no major ABI changes in the KDE libraries -- virtually all the KDE packages (like K3b for example) run fine on both versions regardless of what KDE version it was compiled against.

The same can NOT be said about Firefox. After backporting Firefox, packages that used Firefox to provide rendering services would instantly segfault upon accessing the Firefox libraries. Extensions of Firefox that were 1.0-specific were disabled automatically. There have even been a few reports of personal settings (bookmarks, etc) lost when upgrading highly modified Firefox profiles.65 • donations (by ray carter at 2005-12-07 01:25:52 GMT from United States)
I'd like to nominate for a future donation either Enlightenment itself, or the Elive distribution.

Ladislav - maybe it's time to set up a balloting system. Maybe have a cutoff date for nominations, possible reduce the list a little, and let readers vote - what do you think?66 • Please Report Exact File Size of CD and DVD iso images (by ROBERT HUNTER on 2005-12-07 03:39:06 GMT from Australia)
I was wondering if distro makers could report the size of the iso download file. As I have a fairly fast broadband, it is not of great import to me generally, but I would imagine there are still a few folks out there using dial-up 56K modems, especially when using laptops. Also, also wireless internet speeds are getting better, they still generally lag behind landline adsl.The second reason for wanting to know the iso size before download, is when using business card CD-R's Business card DVD's or 180mm CD-R's. For example, until recently, the largest mini-CD-R I could get could only hold 185MB, which is too small for Mandrake MINi, which is more comfortable on a larger 212MB mini-cd.Then there are the "50MB" BBC-style distros like DSL, PUPPY, etc. Sometimes these distros are slighly over 50MB. But the largest BBC-CD-R/CD-RW are only 54megabytes, and much harder to obtain than 45MB or 50MB BBC's in some areas. So there is little point in downloading an iso meant for a tiny or mini-CD if you don't have the right size CD. The whole idea is to burn it onto a CD that will fit in your wallet or shirt pocket. [otherwise it's just an awful waste of space].If anyone knows of a good reliable, reasonably-priced quality outlet for odd-ball size CD-R/CD-RW, DVD's, could you post your suggestions?Thanks.67 • Exact Sizes (by John Dong on 2005-12-07 19:52:20 GMT from United States)
Your downloading client should be capable of reporting this. Also, by going into the upper folder (containing the ISO image itself), the web/FTP server should also report this.

The thing about "exact sizes" is that there are both binary and decimal definitions of KB, MB, GB, etc, that can be combined in all kinds of deceptive ways (whether accidental or not). So even if we say an image is "55.4MB", What constitutes a Megabyte? 1024 or 1000 KB? And what constitutes a KB? 1024 or 1000 Bytes?

When you buy X MB media, how are _they_ measuring their MB's too? On hard drives, it sometimes adds up to over 10GB of a discrepancy on raw media size.

You don't have to download an entire file to know the size of it (if you do, try a different mirror!).. If the size is not what you expected, stop the download... No time lost.68 • jdong (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-12-07 20:03:57 GMT from United States)
I want to welcome you to these forums and encourage you to stick around. Your informative contributions are very appreciated.69 • Response to #68 (by John Dong on 2005-12-08 00:55:56 GMT from United States)
Thank you. I've been a distrowatch reader/follower/worshipper ever since I started using Linux :)70 • Download sizes (by robert hunter on 2005-12-08 06:00:24 GMT from Australia)
Thanks, John Dong, for you suggestions, although I was already aware of them. Hard drive manufactuer's almost always use the Decimal [1000] rather than the binary kilobytes etc [1024], wheras most downloads are reported in binary. Still, some sites do not allow the ftp client or http client to report any size figues at all, until the download completes. For most however, you are correct, as they give a size and an eta for downloading.Still, i repeat my request to anyone out there who knows of a reliable supplier. One place "guarranteed a 2 working day turnaround" on orders, and I ended up waiting about 3 weeks.!Cheers.71 • Selecting a Linux for me. PCLinuxOS will stay (by Distrowarch Reader on 2005-12-08 06:39:31 GMT from United States)
SUse tried it ! if your system is correctly set up by YAST good for You.Mephis tried it ! What is going on with Debian?Umbunto tried it ! Automatix is the only thing I liked.PCLinuxOS The installer correctly set up my system. The packages are GREAT. Synaptic is automatic enough for me point and click.72 • PCLinuxOS (by wayne040576 on 2005-12-08 07:42:09 GMT from United Kingdom)
I tried PCLinuxOS about a year ago and didn't think much about it. But since it has been getting a lot of praise here lately, I thought I'd give it another try. It has really improved a lot. Very straightforward installation, good selection of packages, browser plugins etc installed from start. There are a few things I didn't like: I thought the Kmenu has far too many sub folders, especially when looking for configurations. This might be just be though as I usually arrange my menus So I can find things very quickly. I find synaptic to be much slower than it is with debian. I don't know if this is due to the RPMs. I don't like Lilo as the default boot manager, I just prefer grub. I just installed it to the partition and pointed grub at it from my main distro. The default desktop theme looks good but is a little too close to XP. But overall a good system that I'd recommend to new users.73 • Re: PCLinuxOS (by Ariszló on 2005-12-08 10:22:23 GMT from Hungary)
I don't like PCLinuxOS's K Menu either: you need to click too many to launch an application. However, I prefer LILO to Grub for a couple of reasons, one of which is that it is much easier to switch run levels with it.74 • Ladislav: duplicate posts (by Leo on 2005-12-08 15:19:23 GMT from United States)
Ladislav

The other day I posted multiple times (unintentionally) the same message. I think it was the Session Saver extension to Firefox. This is what I think was the problem:

1) I posted a message2) I closed Firefox3) Re-opened Firefox next day. All the tabs that were open in step 1) were re-opened by session saver.

4) Eventually I closed Firefox5) Re opened Firefox

At that point I noticed the triple posting of my message "Klik (3)" and I killed the offending Tab in Firefox.

I could test this to see how reproducible it is, but I don't want to play with the Forum. What do you think ?

My 2 ctsLeo75 • RE: 74 • duplicate posts (by ladislav on 2005-12-09 02:04:46 GMT from Taiwan)
If I reload a page with previous "POST" data in it, Firefox gives me a warning - that's when I realise that I shouldn't do it. But if you click on "yes", then sure, your message will be posted again.

I've meant to solve the problem by comparing the content of each new post with those of existing posts by I haven't had the time yet. Maybe somebody can volunteer to write a better forum code? Or does anybody know if there is a way to disable reloading pages with "POST" data?76 • Re: duplicated posts (by Anonymous on 2005-12-09 03:21:11 GMT from Italy)
Maybe this can help:http://www.codecomments.com/archive311-2004-12-333340.html77 • Stability is the issue - so backport! (by Eric Yeoh on 2005-12-09 08:54:23 GMT from Malaysia)
I am a new feature junkie. I frequently change distros just to try out the new stuff. However, I still feel while the new stuff are sexier and cooler, in a production or critical environment, stability is the primary concern.

I lost count the number of times I have to rebuild my system because I went for the latest packages. Now, if I am running an important system, am I doomed to use the old packages?

Backporting is good, but most importantly those who package the apps must also test them throughly.

Eric78 • 76 • Re: duplicated posts (by ladislav on 2005-12-09 10:07:07 GMT from Taiwan)
Thank you, Anonymous from Italy! I've impletmented the "redirect" idea (so simple, I should have thought about it myself), so we shouldn't see any more double posts from now on.79 • Puppy Linux (by Henrique Maia on 2005-12-09 20:27:10 GMT from Portugal)
I would also recommend this for a donation. It revived my girlfriend's laptop and made it usable again. She is totally computer unfriendly and she uses it on a daily basis, with almost no hassle at all. That's a good example how puppy linux is a very useful project.

About backports, I prefer stability to novelty, but I do often get excited with applications new features... As an Ubuntu user, I'm pretty happy with their backport policy. When I really get overexcited and there's no backport, I compile it myself.80 • kde 3.5 (by agendelman on 2005-12-09 23:03:05 GMT from United States)
I'm running mandriva cooker, and its had 3.5 for some time. Cooker is the development tree. Stable releases eventually come from cooker. Its somewhat analogous to debian sid or the current suse alpha release. In about a month we'll see a cooker snapshot which will be the beginning of the next mandriva, 2007.

PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 9011 g00fy 25 0 30244 17m 13m R 98.9 1.8 73:07.11 kmix83 • what's your top ten debian based distro? (by vampire_janus@yahoo.com on 2005-12-10 13:48:08 GMT from Philippines)
i just wonder...84 • Re: #59 responds, lengthy rant follows :) (by Misty on 2005-12-25 04:24:17 GMT from United States)
I must agree with many of this poster's points. If we already have a really good installer why does every distro need it's own? Why not just take the best one out there already and adjust the code as needed for your Such-n-Such distro? Likewise with a package management system; so far, Debian's apt is about the best, with Gentoo's being very different. So why don't we just have apt and emerge?

In short, why not just take the best and make it a standard? That way, people could come up with improvements. There's little need to reinvent the wheel with every distro unless you specifically want to try to do soemthing new. With that we could have a standard and a few various experimental whatevers.

Note that I'm NOT saying that we should have a standard and stick to it religiously. It's by experimenting we could eventually make the standards better or come up with something completely different that's better.

One thing that does bug me is people complaining about how many distros there are that are in active development. Well, this is how things improve to a great extent and you get better variants. As far as I'm concerned GenieOS is what Debian could be but itsn't. It's basically Debian with a much-improved installer. Now, the guys at Debian could incorporate the installer into Debian but they've made it apparent they're not going to do that - as long as they have Debian trademarked, anything THEY didn't come up with themselves isn't Debian (even if it really is). Yeah, I don't like their attitude much. This is a helluva lot of the problem; others come up with great improvements and the developers of the original distro refuse to add those imrpovments. People talk about the sense of community in the Linux world, but among the distro-develoeprs, it's all too often an invite-only community. So the only option you have is to make a new distro. Yes, many are lousy, but there are a number that are good. As an old example, remember how good Mandrake was? Didn't it start out as a Red Hat variant?

And then there are the many, many variant language distros; what else can you do when you want develop, say, a Spanish language version of a distro that's only available in English? Because of trademarks you can't publish it as ThisDistro Espanol or they can sue you. You have to make it a different distro. 'Course, many take the opportunity to also fix whatever they feel is wrong with ThisDistro as well; unfortunately, the developers of ThisDistro are not all that likely to incorporate the changes into the parent distro because of, well, attitude mostly (as in the above paragraph).

To summarize, some standards would be very helpful to have among both users and develoeprs. But as to the number of distros out there, you shouldn't immediately pin the blame on the developer of a new distro; many, many distros are variants of other distros, so take a look at how the devkopers of the original distros respond to other developers who make imrpovements on their trademarked distro. A great deal of the time you'll find they've refused to consider adding these imrpovements and won't even acknowledge them at all.85 • ubuntu not dumb enough (by grover on 2005-12-25 08:54:59 GMT from United States)
i had planned on walking my mother through installing ubuntu on her laptop while visiting this weekend. turns out the live cd can't see the built in wifi or battery... i did a quick search to see what might be involved in setting it up myself... long story short, i decided it's still going to easier for me to clean up the xp install for her while i'm here.

i'm sick of fixing my mothers computer.. for crying out loud... this disto is so close to perfect for mom it's not funny..

that sim link bug will be fixed, and is easy enough for us (the geeky readers of this site) to deal with.. i'm far more concered with getting windows of my mothers computer in such a way that i won't have to be on the phone with her every other day with a whole new set of problems created by a linux distro that needs work done to it, as often as work is done on it

sooooooo close.... so so very close86 • #85 (by Anonymous on 2005-12-26 02:06:31 GMT from United States)
Trademarks must be protected against all violations or they risk forfeiture. Debian can't pick and choose which violations to accept even if they may support the project in question.

The GenieOS installer is just preseeding the sarge installer with some defaults and adding some scripts based on some assumptions about the use to which the system will be put. This sort of extensibility is precisely why the Debian installer was designed as it was. But Debian is maintaining a more general purpose installer, equally adaptable to other uses, so there's no good reason for them to incorporate the GenieOS mods by default.87 • Quick Response (by Poofyhairguy on 2005-12-27 04:49:28 GMT from United States)
Rick, your rant is interesting if only because it points out the differences in philosophy between Linux and OSes like OSX and Windows.

You see a huge part of the culture of Linux (the fact that each can do its own thing) as bad in some ways. You rant how an OS that is used on 9 out of the top 10 super computers in the world (along with powering what I think is the best search engine) needs to "grow up."

The interesting part is I have seen your rant before. Not from you- from many former Windows users. I was at that phase too at one point. Why can't Linux have a single installer? Why can't Linux have more standards? Why can't the Linux community work together better and use its resources better?

Then (like all users who get past this stage) I figured it out. Linux is not a desktop OS. I mean...it is...but its not ONLY a desktop OS. So it does not make sense to sacrifice some things that would benefit the desktop side but hurt other sides (such as a binary driver interface) when the Desktop side is just really beginning its life- its basically a side effect of the strong Linux server market!

Once you deal with the community enough you get why standards don't exist- its easier to fork than play nice with others (all the Debian and RPM distros anyone?). Its easier to create your own thing than sacrifice your idea of what a project should be (why we have both KDE and Gnome). And no person "owns" Desktop Linux, so there can be no Bill Gates who ends the flamewars with a stroke of the pen.

I mean....the closest thing Linux has to a leader spoke out against Gnome and its not going away. In fact, its becoming the default for every high end "enterprise" distro (if I am wrong correct me). If even the "dictator" of Linux can't mend the divisions on the desktop, who can? The answer is no one can. A few try. A few smart minds have come far (like Mr. Hearn and Autopackage) and have done about as well as anyone could expect.

But in the end you pass the phase where you dream that Linux can unify on the Desktop (without intervention) and deal with that reality. Like many things in life you have to accept the community like it is- you can only dictate terms on your own computer.

Of course, in your rant you also pointed out the only way this will be fixed if it ever is- you just did not admit the reason why. If Google made a distro. Or AT&T made a distro. Or if General Motors made a distro. Or any huge company made a desktop distro by pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into making and marketing it so that it became THE Desktop Distro. Then all the others would have to copy its package manager/interface/etc. to survive as more than niche players. I see this as the only way standards will come. You do too, even if you do not say so. The reason is that this solution actually works within the current philosophy of Linux (if something is REALLY superior -aka Xorg and the Linux kernel- it will be a standard), instead of pretending that the Linux community can change to meet some goal all in it do not want.

And for the record, today a friend of mine who could not install XP if I walked him through it over the phone (I have tried) installed Ubuntu on his new computer without any help from me what so ever (besides giving him a install CD). Once installed I pointed him in the direction of Automatix on the phone and it did everything else he wanted with a GUI- in total he had to deal with two commands (which could be none if Automatix ever got into the Universe). In less than one hour this man who at one time could not beat back spyware to save his soul had his box set-up as much as many regular users will need it to be. I know that the Ubuntu installer does not work in all cases (like my sister's Vaio) and that Automatix is not perfect (two whole commands) but to me it shows that Ubuntu (or really Debian and Ubuntu) and Desktop Linux have come a long way considering the small resources each has (compared to the billions MS has).

If Desktop Linux can come that far without sacrificing its core philosophy of choice, then why should it unify just to make some in the community happy? Answer is that is won't and can't (at least until a player that makes Novell look like a small fry comes along).

But you use what you need- if the philosophy of Linux is not good for you then ditch it. In the world there exists many Desktop OSes, and even other free ones.

And of course, this is my own opinion so take it with a grain of salt (like all rants on Linux forums).88 • Building / Compiling in Ubuntu (Re: (by Joshua Purcell on 2005-12-27 04:50:28 GMT from United States)
There is a catch-all package that will install the components you are looking for... build-essential. All you need to do is type the following command and you will get the packages you need to compile most applications in Ubuntu:sudo apt-get install build-essential

I don't have experience with the release before 5.04 (which was called Warty), but the way this package works has not changed in the last two releases.89 • lies (by Mr. Pink on 2005-12-27 05:49:49 GMT from United States)
And for the record, today a friend of mine who could not install XP if I walked him through it over the phone (I have tried) installed Ubuntu on his new computer without any help from me what so ever (besides giving him a install CD).

I don't believe you.
90 • RE: lies (by poofyhairguy on 2005-12-27 09:52:15 GMT from United States)
Well Mr. Pink, I didn't believe it either at first but my friend did it! Shocked me really. I did tell him once ( a few months ago) that I thought that "you could get through the Ubuntu install by just hitting enter or yes the whole time and it would work in the end" and maybe he took that to heart.

I will admit to you there is a part of this story that I neglected to mention- I personally picked out the parts for his new machine. I spent hours looking up which parts worked best in Linux out of the box (ATI 9250 card, VIA motherboard, best SATA controller, etc.) and then sent him to Fry's with a list to get himself a computer with those parts.I knew a person at Frys, so I was able to talk to that person and stress the importance of sticking to the list along with the importance of getting Frys to put it together well.

My friend payed the costs and took it home without me being there, but I picked out each part of his "made for Ubuntu" machine.

But my point was not that Ubuntu is ready for every computer. My point was the installer is easy enough. In fact, the only problems come when you are trying to dual boot with XP (or hardware problems) and he never bought a copy of that. After the bad experiance I mentioned with XP on his last computer, he wanted something new.

But he did install it himself. I was going to call and walk him through it today but when I called he was asking what to do after the install! He then installed and used Automatix himself (I helped a little over phone by giving him the link but that was it).

I was amazed. For me and my once luddite friend, the year of the Linux Desktop IS 2005!

Of course you can continue to not believe me...does not make it less true.91 • Installers (by Anonymous on 2005-12-27 16:12:57 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu's installer may not be a pretty one or the easiest, but it gets the job done. The Windows installer isn't all that great either. I would put the Anaconda, YaST, PCLinuxOS, Mepis installers among those that are easier. Personally, I like the Mepis and PCLinuxOS installer. Just load up the livecd and install. It's nice having a rescue tool and installer all in one. It also gives you the opportunity to try out the hardware. In any case, I hope the Vista installer is improved from the XP installer. The XP installer is dated, but like the Ubuntu installer, it will get the job done.92 • Not Ubuntu, but XP part (by Mr. Pink on 2005-12-29 02:44:33 GMT from United States)
It is conceivable that your friend installed Ubuntu without your help.I doubt the part about his inability to install XP. That's where, I think, you bent the truth quite a bit.93 • public "beta" release of Mandriva clarified (by agendelman on 2005-12-29 03:27:00 GMT from United States)
Distrowatch reported:

The developers of Mandriva Linux have quietly released what appears to be a public beta of Mandriva Linux 2006.1.

Actually this release is more alpha than beta. It's freely available to the public, but the public in mind are really developers geeks and people who want to get involved in the development process. It's on the "cooker" mirrors where the next release of Mandriva is "cooked".

The process starts with a cooker snapsot and proceeds over many months thru several alpha releases until it goes beta, then to rc, and finally "official". This cooker snapshot, which has been advertised on the development sites for some time is really the first release of Mandriva 2007. It won't be called that, however, until the end of the process.

It's definitely not for the production server, the enterprise desktop, or your aunt's browsing and shopping machine. It's for development and testing. If you want to get involved, download, burn, and test away. Remember though, it's alpa software, under heavy development, changing daily etc etc.

Have fun94 • The difference is in the partitioning (by poofyhairguy on 2005-12-29 10:28:07 GMT from United States)
Well Mr. Pink, as long as you don't object to my primary point I feel better.

I did not lie in this case- the partitioning part for XP is FAR harder than Ubuntus. No guided partitioning to tell yes, just tons of screens.

"Hit J(or some random letter) to delete partition."

Then

"Hit P( or some random letter) to install on partition."

"Hit F8 (or some key you only use once) to continue."etc.

My friend could not get past the first part of the XP install, even with me saying "look for the command that allows you to delete the partition."95 • Re: #93 :: public "beta" release of Mandriva clarified (by Leo on 2005-12-29 12:42:31 GMT from United States)
Thanks agendelman for the clarification. But it looks to me that this release is an alpha for 2006.1 (not 2007). And I think 2006.1 will be released around March , as an update to 2006.0 - then, in October or so, they will release 2007.0

Now they are alpha-releasing 2006.1-0.3 - it seems to be on the way to the final release 2006.1

They have been talking about a 1 year cycle (which sucks for home desktops, and is appropriate for corporate users). My strong feeling is that they will release 2006.1 as a CD or DVD simple update. And then do a full release of 2007.0 in late 2006

All in all I am feeling more and more left out in the cold as a user, but Mandriva still just works for me. 100%. Whenever kubuntu gets as functional (just adding a good control center, and maturing a bit more in general) I'll make the switch. It will probably be for the next wave of releases, in March 2006 ... and in the meantime, I'll follow the popular "don't fix it if it aint broke"

The naming conventions for cooker, at this point, are a little confusiong. Even though it's called 2006xxx, its the cooker snapshot, and that's really the beginning of the development cycle for 2007. As the weeks and months roll by, it will diverge more and more from 2006 official. The odd naming convention for cooker is a topic of lively discussion on the club site.

From a desktop users point of view, a year-long development cycle does suck. If you look at the estimated release calendar, you'll see that 2007 will go official around September, about 9 months from now.It will be a very usable distro, however, in beta and rc releases long before then.

If you're running 2006 official now, you can change your mirrors to the 2006 devel branch and get updates and contribs that haven't made it into official. There are also third party contributors (eg Thac and Ze's rpms) who backport stuff for the official version.

Or, if you're brave, you can watch the next distro unfold thru cooker.

Im looking in the package manager for GPSDrive... cannot locate it. Is thissomething that I have to go to the site for?

My linksys wifi card doesnt seem to be recognized either. The PCMCIA slots arerecognized, but when i put the wifi card in nothing happens.

How long do you think he's gonna take it If such a simple thing cannot be handled by OS?99 • Re: It won't last (by Mr. Pink on 2005-12-29 21:09:43 GMT from United States) (by KOSSLOWWSKI on 2006-01-01 09:25:22 GMT from Germany)
Simply tell your Friend, to try out Kanotix, Mr Pink. Its just out, and it works!