It also kind of reduces the significance of Jesus rising from the dead, since we already have an example of this happening to someone who did NOT claim to be of divine origin. If ordinary dudes can be raised from the dead, what's the big deal about Jesus doing it too, especially if he was divine? You would expect him to be able to do that.

Actually, its more than that, thinking about it. Whenever we disparage the "sacrifice", we get told that Christ had no idea what was going to happen. The Lazarus story makes that a lot feebler an argument. Jesus was well aware that - through his god - people were being brought back to life, so he must have had at least a good suspicion that HE would be brought back too.

Like....he healed a lot of lepers as well. If you could heal lepers, you'd be a lot more blase about shaking their hands. So if you knew you had the power to make the dead live again, you'd be a lot more sanguine about doing anything that might lead to your "death".

I'm glad you said "if". Being raised from the dead is obviously not the benchmark for divinity. And it's pretty poor logic to say that because Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, that Lazarus must be automatically divine because Christ was also raised from the dead and IS divine. So no... no cake having + eating going on here.

Are there any other examples Jesus being divine? That is, example that won't automatically qaulify Criss Angel or David Copperfield as divinity?

Ever heard of the phrase "Saved by the bell", one of it probable origins is linked to premature burial. Look it up, maybe JC didn't die at all.

I don't consider "crushed" intestines to be amputations either. But, we aren't just talking about crushed intestines are we. They were surgically removed.

We are talking about a story on a website owned by a company that is notorious for being a front for scam artists and frauds. We have no idea whether this story is fact or fiction. And given the history of the 700 club, I think it is most likely fiction.

The regrowth of removed intestines absolutely meets the criteria for unexpected regrowth.

It might if it actually happened. As it stands, we have no way to know if it actually happened. We just have a story on a website that has been associated with frauds like Jim Bakker and Pat Robertson. Please pardon us if we do not take it as rock-solid evidence or the "god's honest" truth.

I think we are coming at it from different perspectives. You have accepted the story at face value without any kind of investigation or critical analysis. Our goal is not to discredit it, though it seems pretty easy to do. Our goal is to make sure that what is presented is actual and true. I want to believe what is true. I do not want to believe what is untrue. You should want those things too. You should be rigorous about it. Do you or do you not care about the truth?

No, I don't consider crushed intestines to be an amputation. Additionally, I think that the best proof of miraculous faith healing would be the complete recovery of someone who was decapitated in such a fashion that there was no remains of the head (i.e. head exploded or mutilated beyond recovery in some fashion). That could ONLY be done by a divine being. Yet, it has NEVER happened. I can't imagine why that could be. God (and the followers of Jesus) are supposed to be capable of incredible healing miracles. Jesus was alleged to have raised the dead[1], and said his followers would do even sweeter stuff than that. Believers should be capable of healing decapitations in seconds.

I don't consider "crushed" intestines to be amputations either. But, we aren't just talking about crushed intestines are we. They were surgically removed. When we use the word "amputation", we generally mean "limb", so the word doesn't really cover organs - hearts, lungs or intestines. But, you would be hard-pressed to say that the regrowth of a heart is not on a par with regrowth of a leg. We need a better word to cover any human tissue that is lost or removed and which is not expected to regenerate. The regrowth of removed intestines absolutely meets the criteria for unexpected regrowth. Your only way out is to discredit the person or the story.

By the way, my take on decapitations is that God genuinely intends this person to be dead. If you have seen any of the near-death experience testimonies on YouTube, where people claim to have gone to heaven etc and been told they need to go back, there is usually an injury or condition that one could imagine might reasonably be recovered from, e.g. the woman who tried to shoot herself in the heart, but missed by a quarter inch, went to hell, but was allowed back. Or other types of conditions that one could reasonably suppose to be scientifically possible to come back from. So, it's possible that God designs the clean loss of something like a limb as an intention of permanency.

But now and again, the envelope gets stretched, e.g. this intestine example and others such as the window cleaner who fell 47 stories and survived with relatively minor injuries. Somehow he knew it wasn't his time to go.

I think you're on to something there.

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Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin

I don't consider "crushed" intestines to be amputations either. But, we aren't just talking about crushed intestines are we. They were surgically removed.

We are talking about a story on a website owned by a company that is notorious for being a front for scam artists and frauds. We have no idea whether this story is fact or fiction. And given the history of the 700 club, I think it is most likely fiction.

The regrowth of removed intestines absolutely meets the criteria for unexpected regrowth.

It might if it actually happened. As it stands, we have no way to know if it actually happened. We just have a story on a website that has been associated with frauds like Jim Bakker and Pat Robertson. Please pardon us if we do not take it as rock-solid evidence or the "god's honest" truth.

I think we are coming at it from different perspectives. You have accepted the story at face value without any kind of investigation or critical analysis. Our goal is not to discredit it, though it seems pretty easy to do. Our goal is to make sure that what is presented is actual and true. I want to believe what is true. I do not want to believe what is untrue. You should want those things too. You should be rigorous about it. Do you or do you not care about the truth?

So, it's possible that God designs the clean loss of something like a limb as an intention of permanency.

So you are saying god has a plan? How does that square with free will?

Your signature talks about the "The Basic Con". The self-con would be the finest example of this. An example of someone indulging in this most basic and dishonest of cons would be someone who says things like "I want to know the truth and not believe a lie", while at the same time looking to find every possible way to not have to believe something which might in fact be true. I took the time to verify with the guy himself, by email, his personal experience. I don't yet have access to the medical records and reports. I have done something to verify the truth so I do not believe a lie. What, may I ask, have you done to ensure that you don't believe a lie, but only get the truth?

I took the time to verify with the guy himself, by email, his personal experience.

Gosh! You mean, the story that he put on the website, he also said was true in an email? Well, that's convincing. I mean, when you email someone and ask if something is true, they'll immediately cave in and crack if they're lying, right? They'd NEVER be so bold as to reply and say "yes, it really is true!"

I have done something to verify the truth so I do not believe a lie. What, may I ask, have you done to ensure that you don't believe a lie, but only get the truth?

Have you? You honestly regard emailing the same person who tells you the original story as trying to verify the truth? Though to be fair, I doubt there is any way this story can be verified one way or the other - they're quite careful that way.

As far me.....hard to say in the general. Did you have a specific lie you were concerned with?

"And I checked into Whatley hospital in Texarkana, Texax in February of 1975. I checked in with electrolytes, which means that the chemicals in my body were so far out of balance that they had to give me IVs to build me up. "

This is pure gibberish. One does not "check in" with electrolytes. Electrolytes are a natural part of the body process. The closest condition that he could mean is a water-electrolyte imbalance. However the symptons that he describes do not match up with such a thing. And it certainly is not a condition that requires surgery. Either he's lying about what was wrong with him initially, or he's a terrible doctor.

"At that time of my life, I was atheist. I was hard core atheist and was living for myself. Atheists are self centered, they live for themselves. "

This statement is not only wrong, it's stupidly wrong. This does however sound exactly like what Christians try to claim about atheists.

[color=blue"]I knew I had a condition which is that was called Acute hemorrhagic narcotic pancreatitis. You don’t live with this disease. You could live with pancreatitis. You could even live with Acute pancreatitis, but you do not live with Acute hemorrhagic narcotic pancreatitis. Dunkon had told my two sons that I would be dead before morning."

Not true. While it certainly is a serious condition, the mortality rate (even in the seventies) was not extremely high and mostly due to complications with the surgical treatments than the disease itself (as per Wikipedia). Also interesting to note this from the medical section of the Free Dictionary "a condition due to autolysis of pancreatic tissue caused by escape of enzymes into the substance, resulting in hemorrhage into the parenchyma and surrounding tissues. Seen most commonly in dogs, rarely in horses and pigs."

While we're on the subject, this supposedy hit him and was threatening to kill him within the space of about four or five days, which is much faster than this normally works. Also while he doesn't (conveniently) describe the symptoms that he had what he does say about what happened to him does not really seem to measure up.

"I was laying there, a professed atheist. I didn’t believe in God. I believed in the power of the universe because I’ve seen it. As a physician, I’ve dealt with life and death. I believed in something, but don’t talk me about God. And surely don’t talk to me about resurrection, virgin birth or these type of things because I am in research and science. The Majority of PHDs in research and science don’t believe in God. They do not believe a supreme being. They are beginning to believe there is an order in the universe because the further along we go, we see the order. "

These are not really the typical words of an atheist.

"But it is very difficult to be an atheist when you are lying on the death bed, because you began thinking "what if these people are right?" "

This is a common "foxholes" argument used by Christians. Matched alongside Pascal's Wager. Again this does sound like the thought process of an atheist. What it sounds more like is that he did have a belief in some kind of god, just not a defined religious god. "When I was lying on my death bed and knowing that I was going to die, guess who I thought about? I thought, "what if Ron is right? What if there is a Heaven and a Hell." Almost immediately the most pressing thought in my mind is how do I get saved. What is saved? How do I get saved? "

Again, Pascal's Wager. He came to Christianity out of fear. Not out of any genuine belief.

"There are people that talk about a light, or floating above, a feeling of warmth or love. I didn’t feel any of that. I felt none of that. I felt untold terror, untold terror. I knew that if I went all the way, if I slipped all the way, I would never get back. In my being of beings I knew that. So I fought all night long.

They told me later on that I not only pull the mattress cover off the mattress, I put the mattress upon me. I had to stay, I had to wait till Ron got there. Whatever he had to do, I had to wait.

But again when I would leave my body, I would be going down into deep dark terror. My skin began to get cold. Not the kind of cold you feel when you walk out in the air, no, this was bone chilling cold. And I could feel the coldness began to come up my legs.

Again I would begin to leave my body and would be in the darkness, in that void. I remember one time entering back my body, I felt my body thud, my physical body thud. Believe me, believe me, that was the most horrifying terrifying experience that I had ever encountered. "

This indicates nothing but the possibility of a bad dream, or a hallucination brought on by his condition. This is especially true in comparison to how sketchy the rest of what he's said has been.

"I fought all night long. The next morning around 9:30 or 10 o’clock, Ron came in. He said, “Dr. Whitaker, what do they say are your chances?” I said, “Ron, they tell me I have none.” He said, “Now is the time.” I said, “You're right.”

Before, I had cursed him, I had spit on him, but now it was the time because I had to have whatever he had. I had a short period of time left on earth and I didn’t have any idea when I might make that trip and go all the way. "

Note the bold. This is interesting because previously he says this about Ron.

"I would debate him and I liked him, because he did what he said he was going to do. He was the only one that I saw that profess to be Christian and lived what he said he was going to do. I really respected him. I didn’t believe what he said but I respected him. "

This presents two very contradictory views as nowhere in his narrative is it ever indicated that he had ever been unkind to Ron in anyway. However now he had suddenly been cursing and spitting on him. Thinking back this narrative seems like it was actually done by two different people and pieced together. It's very inconsistent.

It's basically the testimony of a man who saw something while he was ill and feverish (that is very poorly described) who already had some semblance of a god belief, that became a believer after he miraculously survived from a condition that a lot of other people survive from that hit him much faster than it normally would and behaved differently from the condition he claimed to have. Then while he was sick and feverish a man came to him and told him to pray and accept god, despite the fact that his mind is confused and highly vulnerable....... do I need to go on?

Your signature talks about the "The Basic Con". The self-con would be the finest example of this. An example of someone indulging in this most basic and dishonest of cons would be someone who says things like "I want to know the truth and not believe a lie", while at the same time looking to find every possible way to not have to believe something which might in fact be true.

Are you accusing me of lying? Are you accusing me of being a hypocrite? It sounds that way to me, but it sounds like you are trying to do it in a way that gives you plausible deniability. So, if that is what you are saying, spit the marbles out of your mouth and say it.

I've been direct and more or less cordial with you. I've accused you at the worst of being... not all that bright. There are worse things to be. For example, dishonest. Which you seem to have accused me of being. This conversation can go a couple of ways. Right now, I don't like the way you are taking it. I suggest you take a minute and get your head screwed on right. Because the tone going forward is up to you.

Your signature talks about the "The Basic Con". The self-con would be the finest example of this. An example of someone indulging in this most basic and dishonest of cons would be someone who says things like "I want to know the truth and not believe a lie", while at the same time looking to find every possible way to not have to believe something which might in fact be true. I took the time to verify with the guy himself, by email, his personal experience. I don't yet have access to the medical records and reports. I have done something to verify the truth so I do not believe a lie. What, may I ask, have you done to ensure that you don't believe a lie, but only get the truth?

Oh, I look for evidence, like medical records and reports. If this was true, the claimant should have no problem with presenting you with contact information for his doctor, the hospital he was at, and his medical records. He should be showing this to everyone if it's true. However, since all people like this never do anythign of the kind, there is no reason to think they are telling the truth. I do like the attempt to use the same old lies that theists try to spread about atheists. I wonder, just how strongly you believe in your god if you are so willing to put your immortal soul on the line for something so petty.

Alzael has done his usual fine job with tearing apart the lies of theists. Now, I wonder are you honorable enough to apologize for trying to lie to everyone with such ridiculous video?

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

He said narcotic. I was quoting directly from a written copy of the same testimony that was being said in the video from another Christian site. I assumed that he had meant necrotizing in my post, however. He really isn't a very good speller. A lot of his written testimony contains errors like that. I checked other sites too and the mistakes are in his original writings.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 02:19:10 PM by Alzael »

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.