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Depending on who you ask Jrue could be 12th or he could be 16th. He could definitely step above Curry, Lawson and Lowry, but I think he would have to be more aggressive both offensively and defensively to do it. Feel free to rip my list apart, but even with my Sixers bias I'll say that was a pretty accurate list. Many NBA guys from outside of the city would probably agree with it for the most part.

I can definitely say Nash, Lowry and Irving are better than Jrue. I doubt that's even questionable at this point. And Lawson, Curry (who has been a PG since he was drafted), Rubio, Wall and Jennings are all debatable like I said. Of course we're in a Sixers forum so you will get plenty of Sixers fan bias. Go to a neutral forum you'll see different results.

u like nash lowry and irving better than i do.... thats ur opinion.... but its definately debatable.

but as far as nash goes... this aint 2009 anymore.

I really don't think there is a question as to how good Nash, Lowry and Irving are.

There is not a single thing Jrue does better than Lowry (the best defensive PG in the NBA despite being much smaller), Irving has him beat in every single aspect outside of D and by a large margin as well and Steve Nash is still the best offensive PG in the NBA. He accounts for a greater % of his team offense than Jrue can ever dream to amount to. Really no reasonable explanation for Jrue being ahead of any of them as of this moment.

Depending on who you ask Jrue could be 12th or he could be 16th. He could definitely step above Curry, Lawson and Lowry, but I think he would have to be more aggressive both offensively and defensively to do it. Feel free to rip my list apart, but even with my Sixers bias I'll say that was a pretty accurate list. Many NBA guys from outside of the city would probably agree with it for the most part.

Wow. Don't fall into the trap of misinterpreting Jrue's past stats. In 2011-12 he was playing for Doug Collins off the high post and sharing the rock with 4 other ball handlers (including Hawes). He is too far down on that list.

Originally Posted by Swashcuff

I really don't think there is a question as to how good Nash, Lowry and Irving are.

There is not a single thing Jrue does better than Lowry (the best defensive PG in the NBA despite being much smaller), Irving has him beat in every single aspect outside of D and by a large margin as well and Steve Nash is still the best offensive PG in the NBA. He accounts for a greater % of his team offense than Jrue can ever dream to amount to. Really no reasonable explanation for Jrue being ahead of any of them as of this moment.

I'd rather give Jrue's deal to him right now than any of those guys going forward from this point on....with the only exception being maybe Kyrie.

As far as who is better right now....
1) Nash is brutal on D and is only amazingly effective on offense if everything is run through him. One has to change the whole roster and offensive system around for Nash to shine at this point in his career. And that gets you 42 wins and a 1st round exit.
2) Lowry is a baller. But he is also a smurf and averaged 14.3 ppg last season despite more free reign with the ball than Jrue. That doesn't jump off the charts for me.
3) Irving...maybe. He's not as big and physical as Jrue for crunch time or the post season. But he's a better true point guard, and maybe a better player...time will tell.

Edit: I guess with the right pieces and the right system you might get a 50 win team with Nash flourishing at this point...maybe. But it would have a real hard time winning a championship.

I'd rather give Jrue's deal to him right now than any of those guys going forward from this point on....with the only exception being maybe Kyrie.

Bro you're not getting what I'm saying. We are 76ers fans we have bias and a preference to all our players. If you say you'll take X player going forward cool. That's not what I'm talking about. I too would take Jrue going forward over most because Jrue is my dude and I believe in his potential more than the others. Jrue also has youth on his side, health and major upside I'd say as a 76ers fan that's only logical.

As far as who is better right now....
1) Nash is brutal on D and is only amazingly effective on offense if everything is run through him. One has to change the whole roster and offensive system around for Nash to shine at this point in his career. And that gets you 42 wins and a 1st round exit.

Okay lets talk about Steve Nash's impact. Let's flip the script. Let's bring Nash to Philly last season and put Jrue on the Suns. Tell me in your most unbiased way possible what do each of these teams look like?

I also 100% fully disagree that one has to change the offensive system to fit Nash. Let's however say that that is true however. Steve Nash has ran 3 of the top 4 offenses in the history of the NBA you don't think it would be smart to do so?

2) Lowry is a baller. But he is also a smurf and averaged 14.3 ppg last season despite more free reign with the ball than Jrue. That doesn't jump off the charts for me.

You forgot that Lowry had the surgery for his sports hernia that was affecting him for almost the entire season. He described it as the most excruciating pain he has ever had to endure. That affected his #s as well as when he returned he started off coming off the bench since Dragic was playing at such a high level and they wanted him to get back into the flor one game at a time.

Despite being 4 inches shorter than Jrue he weighs the very same is better defensively, a far more efficient scorer and just as good as a shooter. That free reign argument as well loses weight when you consider he had Dragic on his heels, Martin as his back court mate and Scola on the post. Lowry would have been a better scorer than Jrue last season if he was a member of the 76ers.

3) Irving...maybe. He's not as big and physical as Jrue for crunch time or the post season. But he's a better true point guard, and maybe a better player...time will tell.

I don't get the different strokes for different folks. Last season Kyrie was the most clutch player in the NBA and has already continued in that same way this season . Earlier you cited your reason for taking Jrue over Lawson was because he was more clutch offensively now you're knocking one of the most clutch players in the game because he's not as big and physical as Jrue?

I don't understand your point here. Kyrie has already proven to be better than Jrue has ever played by having one of the best seasons we've ever seen by a rookie PG, he's younger and his ceiling is higher IMO the only thing that stops him from continuing in that same light is Jrue.

Edit: I guess with the right pieces and the right system you might get a 50 win team with Nash flourishing at this point...maybe. But it would have a real hard time winning a championship.

What does that have to do with anything? As it stands right now there is no way you get a 50 win team with Jrue as your best player much less a title.

You don't get it. The system doesn't make Nash. Nash makes the system. You let him work his mastery and your offense is going to flourish. Look at the team he had in Phoenix last year. They finished with a .500 record out west despite not having our talent or our coaching. Nash is legit dude don't sell him short.

Bro you're not getting what I'm saying. We are 76ers fans we have bias and a preference to all our players. If you say you'll take X player going forward cool. That's not what I'm talking about. I too would take Jrue going forward over most because Jrue is my dude and I believe in his potential more than the others. Jrue also has youth on his side, health and major upside I'd say as a 76ers fan that's only logical.

Ok, I'll be more specific. Youth aside and homerism aside, if I'm a coach trying to win a championship right now and need a top 2-3 player piece to make it happen. I am choosing Jrue over Lawson or Curry.

Okay lets talk about Steve Nash's impact. Let's flip the script. Let's bring Nash to Philly last season and put Jrue on the Suns. Tell me in your most unbiased way possible what do each of these teams look like?

Pretty similar. Nash is brutal on defense. Jrue would have put up bigger numbers without Lou, Collins, and the gang. Nash would have made us slightly better in crunch time. But defense was our bigger crunch time problem than offense last season. Nash doesn't help there. And while the Suns roster (as individuals) was unimpressive, there were plenty of guys who could play off of Nash in that system in the half court offense more effectively than the guys on the Sixers roster. I think the Sixers would have won more games during the regular season, 'cause Collins probably turns the offense over to Nash instead of doing what he did with last season's nonsense. But would we have been any more dangerous in the post season? I don't think so.

I also 100% fully disagree that one has to change the offensive system to fit Nash. Let's however say that that is true however. Steve Nash has ran 3 of the top 4 offenses in the history of the NBA you don't think it would be smart to do so?

You can't squeeze square pegs into round holes on offense no matter how much talent you have. 5 guys have to play together. If Nash doesn't have that D'Antonio system (along with off the ball shooters and a nasty finisher rolling to the rim), then he is no where near the same impact player.

The system doesn't completely make the player of course. But if you think that Nash doesn't thrive in large part due to that system.....see: Jeremy Lim.

You forgot that Lowry had the surgery for his sports hernia that was affecting him for almost the entire season. He described it as the most excruciating pain he has ever had to endure. That affected his #s as well as when he returned he started off coming off the bench since Dragic was playing at such a high level and they wanted him to get back into the flor one game at a time.

Ok. I did forget about the injury. I'll give you that. He's still a smurf. That will never change.

Despite being 4 inches shorter than Jrue he weighs the very same is better defensively, a far more efficient scorer and just as good as a shooter. That free reign argument as well loses weight when you consider he had Dragic on his heels, Martin as his back court mate and Scola on the post. Lowry would have been a better scorer than Jrue last season if he was a member of the 76ers.

I'm not convinced he is better defensively because defensive regular season stats for point guards depend a whole lot more on how the system/team is put together than other positions. Also for the post season or crunch time, did I mention he is a smurf? I think I mentioned that.

I don't get the different strokes for different folks. Last season Kyrie was the most clutch player in the NBA and has already continued in that same way this season . Earlier you cited your reason for taking Jrue over Lawson was because he was more clutch offensively now you're knocking one of the most clutch players in the game because he's not as big and physical as Jrue?

I don't understand your point here. Kyrie has already proven to be better than Jrue has ever played by having one of the best seasons we've ever seen by a rookie PG, he's younger and his ceiling is higher IMO the only thing that stops him from continuing in that same light is Jrue.

The Kyrie points, as I already stated, he might be better than Jrue. I did not dispute that. He isn't as big, strong, or physical. That might come into play in the post season. But he is probably a more dangerous all around shooter and a far more prototypical point. I'm sure his pick and roll/pop is more difficult to defend that Jrue's. And he is better at both changing pace and passing in the half court than Jrue.

The Lawson points....I not only prefer Jrue to be one of the top 2-3 players on the roster due to crunch time performance....I also mentioned defense at two positions for post season matchups and the fact that Lawson is a smurf.

What does that have to do with anything? As it stands right now there is no way you get a 50 win team with Jrue as your best player much less a title.

You don't get it. The system doesn't make Nash. Nash makes the system. You let him work his mastery and your offense is going to flourish. Look at the team he had in Phoenix last year. They finished with a .500 record out west despite not having our talent or our coaching. Nash is legit dude don't sell him short.

Nash is legit. I do not dispute that. But I want a team with a ceiling of a championship. At this point, if Nash is your 2nd best player (on the offensive end) he is less valuable to the pursuit of a title than Jrue IMO.....and clogs more cap. Is he better than Jrue right now? Overall, I'd have to see it depends on the system you run. Jrue has more system flexibility. He can defend, shoot, run traditional point some, or play off the high post. Give Nash a D'Antonio system with the ball in his hands all of the time and the right pieces around him, and he's probably better than Jrue. But that does not equate to a title at this point in Nash's career....regardless of what has happened in the past.

Could you please share this significant statistical difference with all of us.

In crunchtime last season....

3 point FG%
Jrue 50%
Lawson 38.5%

2 point FG%
Jrue 65%
Lawson 40%

45% of Lawson's makes were assisted.
30% for Jrue

And Jrue's crunchtime scoring per 48 minutes was higher than Lawson despite playing for Collins and competing with Lou for the ball. Don't compare who Lawson had to share the ball with (no matter who it was) to Lou Williams this past season. There is no comparison.

That's nothing but a prediction is it not? It can go either way since teams are likely to hone in on Jrue even more.

As far as the crunch time scoring, sure that's possible. The defenses will hone in more...hence the FG% will likely be lower. But I don't see how it's physically possible for Jrue to score less in crunch time with Lou gone. Lou attracted the attention of the defense. But that did not help his teammates. It was a poor shot attempt from Lou with Jrue frozen out more often than not.

As I said before I await your facts to back this up. Lawson has already proven more valuable than Jrue in a 7 game series so I don't see your point.

Facts? Just look at the stats. I won't do all your work for you. Jrue averaged numbers in the post season not far off from Lawson last year despite facing better defenses and sharing the roc with Iggy, ET, Lou, and the high post. The Lakers' D and overall team play was not terribly impressive in the post season. I'm not basing Jrue's relative value to Lawson in the post season off just one playoff series. I am pretty sure I am looking at more facts than you.

More ability? Sure I can dig that. Displaying it? I've watched Jrue his entire career he is yet to display it on a consistent enough basis for me to draw a conclusion. That's like saying Evan has displayed the ability to be better than Afflalo. Yeah in a handful of games but he has never been able to maintain it to this point.

Right, and system, sharing the roc, or head coach had nothing to do with that. For Jrue or ET. I don't think you realize how unorthodox it is what Collins has done on the offensive end of the floor....particularly with his young building blocks.

Remember when Bynum had 10 blocks in the first game of that series? When playing against a PG like Lawson interior D is just as important as perimeter (as we have seen time and time and time again with Dwight Howard's Magic) and despite that he still found a way to play at the highest level of his career.

Sadly, Bynum's defense of a a pick and roll/pop is not something to brag about.....nor was his team's overall effort on defense.

It's clear that you've only watched Steph Curry's rookie year. Curry's assists totals went UP when Monta Ellis was out and he was the primary controller of the rock and not only that the team's offensive efficiency was better with Curry on the floor without Ellis than with Ellis.

Add that to the FACT that Curry has a better carry passer rating, higher AST% and a lower TOV% on a higher USG% than Jrue. You're trying to tell me he's stuck being the 1 and the 2 I'd tell you that I have watched and read enough about Curry to tell you that he's a 1, plays like a 1 and has run a more efficienct offense as a 1 than Jrue ever has.

You'll tell me that he looks to score more so he's no sure of his position.

Ok, he's more of a 1 than a 2. But he remains less strong, less athletic, worse defensively, and not quite as long as Jrue. He's a better spot up volume shooter, and a better passer. He probably runs a smoother pick and roll/pop too. But when the opposition's defense tightens up in crunch time. I'll take Jrue's 1 on 1 abilities over Curry.

I find it strange that in the case of Lawson you take Jrue over him because he's more clutch but completely ignore the clutch factor as it relates to Curry.

I take him over Lawson not only because he is a better crunch time option, but also because he is much much bigger.

I take him over Curry because he is better defensively at 2 positions than Curry for the post season, and more dangerous putting the ball on the floor 1 on 1 to get into the paint as a crunch time option.

Ok, I'll be more specific. Youth aside and homerism aside, if I'm a coach trying to win a championship right now and need a top 2-3 player piece to make it happen. I am choosing Jrue over Lawson or Curry.

What happens when you break up posts like this you lose track of the discussion. Once again it seems that you're just not getting it. Its not a question of who you would take it is a question of who has been better. Jrue just hasn't.

Pretty similar.

I am of the opinion that if anyone is putting homerism aside they'd never say this.

Nash is brutal on defense.

The PG is the least impactful defensive position in basketball. Nash's D doesn't hurt his team in any major way. Put it this way he wins you about 50X the amount of games than he loses you on D.

Jrue would have put up bigger numbers without Lou, Collins, and the gang.

That's your opinion but even with a better team around him his TS% was below 49% while Nash's was at 62%. That's a difference of 13% a HUGE difference. Now place Jrue on a team where he's figured to become the focal point on offense and the focus of opposing defenses and you'd likely see a drop in his already poor efficiency despite a hike in his scoring.

Nash would have made us slightly better in crunch time. But defense was our bigger crunch time problem than offense last season. Nash doesn't help there.

With the improvements we'd see on our offense we'd actually be a better team overall and guess what we'll win more games as a result as well. Don't get how being poorer on D in the clutch is a big deal when we'd be a better team. I also beg to differ about our late game struggles. They were more documented on offense than D.

And while the Suns roster (as individuals) was unimpressive, there were plenty of guys who could play off of Nash in that system in the half court offense more effectively than the guys on the Sixers roster. I think the Sixers would have won more games during the regular season, 'cause Collins probably turns the offense over to Nash instead of doing what he did with last season's nonsense. But would we have been any more dangerous in the post season? I don't think so.

Makes no sense IMO. We'll be improved in every aspect on offense and would have added another dynamic to our offense. The offensive advatanges Nash would have given us would have made up for the defensive shortcomings he caused.

You can't squeeze square pegs into round holes on offense no matter how much talent you have. 5 guys have to play together. If Nash doesn't have that D'Antonio system (along with off the ball shooters and a nasty finisher rolling to the rim), then he is no where near the same impact player.

For 1 its not D'Antonio and did you read the article? Nash was running some of the best offenses in the game before D'Antoni and continued to do so after he left and the system completely changed. Nash made those players better shooters and finishers as well.

Just read the article dude you seem extremely misinformed by those statements.

The system doesn't completely make the player of course. But if you think that Nash doesn't thrive in large part due to that system.....see: Jeremy Lim.

Again completely ignorant of what Steve Nash has accomplished. Where was D'Antoni the last 3 seasons? Where was he in the early 00s? Nash's teams were always among the best offensively with or without D'Antoni. Please my dude inform yourself do some research on Nash and read the article I posted it will help you.

Ok. I did forget about the injury. I'll give you that. He's still a smurf. That will never change.

C'mon you're better than that thats the same excuse MylesKong made and his posts have been borderline atrocious. I really can't stand when someone calls another player short without context. Chris Paul and Lowry are arguably the two best defensive PGs in the NBA. Do you think midget CP3 isn't as good as Jrue

As an A.I. fanboy I can't stand the midget remarks either

I'm not convinced he is better defensively because defensive regular season stats for point guards depend a whole lot more on how the system/team is put together than other positions. Also for the post season or crunch time, did I mention he is a smurf? I think I mentioned that.

Again different strokes for different folks. I'm quite certain that if Jrue's defensive metrics were better than Lowry's you'd quote them.

The Kyrie points, as I already stated, he might be better than Jrue. I did not dispute that. He isn't as big, strong, or physical. That might come into play in the post season. But he is probably a more dangerous all around shooter and a far more prototypical point. I'm sure his pick and roll/pop is more difficult to defend that Jrue's. And he is better at both changing pace and passing in the half court than Jrue.

Well just admit it and move on. Kyrie is better. All this post season talk is completely irrelevent. We are yet to see Kyrie in the post season I mean the dude has only played one game. For all we know he could take his game to a whole nother level in the post season. He has already proven to be a franchise calibre player. Jrue? Not so much.

The Lawson points....I not only prefer Jrue to be one of the top 2-3 players on the roster due to crunch time performance....I also mentioned defense at two positions for post season matchups and the fact that Lawson is a smurf.

The smurf argument really doesn't help you in the very least.

Nash is legit. I do not dispute that. But I want a team with a ceiling of a championship. At this point, if Nash is your 2nd best player (on the offensive end) he is less valuable to the pursuit of a title than Jrue IMO.....and clogs more cap. Is he better than Jrue right now? Overall, I'd have to see it depends on the system you run. Jrue has more system flexibility. He can defend, shoot, run traditional point some, or play off the high post. Give Nash a D'Antonio system with the ball in his hands all of the time and the right pieces around him, and he's probably better than Jrue. But that does not equate to a title at this point in Nash's career....regardless of what has happened in the past.

And basically all of this is wrong. If you follow Steve Nash you'd know.

In crunchtime last season....

3 point FG%
Jrue 50%
Lawson 38.5%

2 point FG%
Jrue 65%
Lawson 40%

45% of Lawson's makes were assisted.
30% for Jrue

And Jrue's crunchtime scoring per 48 minutes was higher than Lawson despite playing for Collins and competing with Lou for the ball. Don't compare who Lawson had to share the ball with (no matter who it was) to Lou Williams this past season. There is no comparison.

As far as the crunch time scoring, sure that's possible. The defenses will hone in more...hence the FG% will likely be lower. But I don't see how it's physically possible for Jrue to score less in crunch time with Lou gone. Lou attracted the attention of the defense. But that did not help his teammates. It was a poor shot attempt from Lou with Jrue frozen out more often than not.

Well done you finally posted something to back your opinion. Though ignoring the fact that Lawson also played with Afflalo and Gallo who themselves were go to players in the clutch at various points last season.

Facts? Just look at the stats. I won't do all your work for you. Jrue averaged numbers in the post season not far off from Lawson last year despite facing better defenses and sharing the roc with Iggy, ET, Lou, and the high post.

I'll take the advanced #s available to us over the per game averages.

The Lakers' D and overall team play was not terribly impressive in the post season. I'm not basing Jrue's relative value to Lawson in the post season off just one playoff series. I am pretty sure I am looking at more facts than you.

From your posts I don't see it. I mean seriously implying that Nash is a product of D'Antoni's system that's complete and total fiction

Right, and system, sharing the roc, or head coach had nothing to do with that. For Jrue or ET. I don't think you realize how unorthodox it is what Collins has done on the offensive end of the floor....particularly with his young building blocks.

Sometimes you gotta stop blaming the coach and system and starting watching the player themselves and valuing what they have going for them and what they don't.

Ok, he's more of a 1 than a 2. But he remains less strong, less athletic, worse defensively, and not quite as long as Jrue. He's a better spot up volume shooter, and a better passer. He probably runs a smoother pick and roll/pop too. But when the opposition's defense tightens up in crunch time. I'll take Jrue's 1 on 1 abilities over Curry.

Again you will take. Still see that you're not getting the point. Again you keep stressing on the fact that Jrue is better in the clutch and completely ignoring the fact that he was an inferior payer who equated to less productivity.

I take him over Lawson not only because he is a better crunch time option, but also because he is much much bigger.

And ignore all other factors.

I take him over Curry because he is better defensively at 2 positions than Curry for the post season, and more dangerous putting the ball on the floor 1 on 1 to get into the paint as a crunch time option.

So it matters not who is the better shooter, scorer, ft shooter better at getting to the line and converting in the paint all you want is the player who is better one on one. Interesting.

IMO all you do in all your arguments for Jrue is take him for what he is better at or you percieve him to be better at and ignore every other factor. Then you try and tell me that you aren't being biased. Its pretty clear that you are.