Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

the best way to send something is to GO OUT AND CLIMB IT ...

a TR solo device will allow ya to do that ... even if you dont have a partner

and yes if youve seen progression, or the prophet with leo holding ... they do TR solo their stuff quite a bit ...

Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

I don't understand why you get so worked up over this. TR solo is definitely more than some obscure technique for rare situations. In some cases (like the ones we posted) it is the best solution, in some cases it's not.

Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

I don't understand why you get so worked up over this.

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not getting worked up. I'm just calling bullshit on your bullshit.

In reply to:

TR solo is definitely more than some obscure technique for rare situations. In some cases (like the ones we posted) it is the best solution, in some cases it's not.

I'm not sure how to classify all the fallacies you've managed to pack into those two sentences. There's a straw man there for sure, along with the fallacy of Trying to Weasel Out of an Untenable Position by Any Means Possible™.

You made the unconditional claim that toprope soloing is "the best" method for working a redpoint project. Sure, toprope soloing is not an "obscure" technique, nor is it necessarily "just for rare situations." And, sure (I suppose) toprope soloing is the best solution "in some cases" (eg, when you can't find a partner). But none of that supports your claim that toprope soloing is unconditionally the best method for working a redpoint project. For god sake give it up. If your claim were true, then it would not be the case that almost no project is ever worked in this manner by anyone. No matter how many (few?) examples you can dig up by selectively trawling the Internet for support, there are literally 10s of thousands of examples to the contrary. Do good climbers on occasion work moves on solo toprope? Sure. Is it the norm? Not even remotely. What Universe do you climb in that you could actually have such an opinion?

From a guy who doesn't want his name plastered all over the site? Maybe.

Sorry Brah. Just fooling. Thanks again for that!

By the way, when did everyone decide that the dude couldn't get a partner?I would definitely say that climbing with a partner is more fun, and it's easier to not lose motivation. Especially excellent is when you are both working the same route, sharing beta etc.

While TRS is useful for working routes into a pulp (as said before, as long as they aren't too steep/meandering/etc), I really don't think it's as much fun. I do enjoy it on occasion, but not nearly as much as a good partner.

Plus, if you finally work the route out and can send it every go, it would suck not to dispatch that suckah there and then!

You made the unconditional claim that toprope soloing is "the best" method for working a redpoint project. Sure, toprope soloing is not an "obscure" technique, nor is it necessarily "just for rare situations." And, sure (I suppose) toprope soloing is the best solution "in some cases" (eg, when you can't find a partner). But none of that supports your claim that toprope soloing is unconditionally the best method for working a redpoint project. For god sake give it up. If your claim were true, then it would not be the case that almost no project is ever worked in this manner by anyone. No matter how many (few?) examples you can dig up by selectively trawling the Internet for support, there are literally 10s of thousands of examples to the contrary. Do good climbers on occasion work moves on solo toprope? Sure. Is it the norm? Not even remotely. What Universe do you climb in that you could actually have such an opinion?

Jay

Ah yes, I made the single largest mistake you can do on a message board: make an unconditional claim. Sorry for that.

Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

I don't understand why you get so worked up over this.

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not getting worked up. I'm just calling bullshit on your bullshit.

In reply to:

TR solo is definitely more than some obscure technique for rare situations. In some cases (like the ones we posted) it is the best solution, in some cases it's not.

I'm not sure how to classify all the fallacies you've managed to pack into those two sentences. There's a straw man there for sure, along with the fallacy of Trying to Weasel Out of an Untenable Position by Any Means Possible™.

You made the unconditional claim that toprope soloing is "the best" method for working a redpoint project. Sure, toprope soloing is not an "obscure" technique, nor is it necessarily "just for rare situations." And, sure (I suppose) toprope soloing is the best solution "in some cases" (eg, when you can't find a partner). But none of that supports your claim that toprope soloing is unconditionally the best method for working a redpoint project. For god sake give it up. If your claim were true, then it would not be the case that almost no project is ever worked in this manner by anyone. No matter how many (few?) examples you can dig up by selectively trawling the Internet for support, there are literally 10s of thousands of examples to the contrary. Do good climbers on occasion work moves on solo toprope? Sure. Is it the norm? Not even remotely. What Universe do you climb in that you could actually have such an opinion?

Jay

That's 15x more than what you usually write.. so i call bull shit on you saying your not wound up.

With bad weather, I was off the hook for belay duties. But Tommy, being the animal he is, decided to work on the route self belayed with a mini traxion.Nothing like 5.14a friction in rain/snow.

Halfway through the day he let us know that he made a major breakthrough and found a way to get around the 5.14+ crux with some 5.13+. now the route only had 5 5.14 pitches… no problem!!

obviously some RC "experts" know better ...

they probably climb harder than old tommy there ... i mean come on ... 5,14a ... pffft ... only gumbies TR solo to work out the moves for that ...

I'll translate the underlined part for you: usually Tommy worked on the route with his partner belaying him. But when he found himself without a belayer one day, because the weather was really bad, he went to work on his project anyway, on self-belay, and it was a productive session for him.

I do not see a contradiction there, at all. He might have had a breakthrough that day with a belayer, just as easily. This is a long way from saying that rope soloing is the best tactic from redpointing something.

Yes, people can rope solo, and many do. If you are like Stéphane Perron, you climb Free Rider on El Cap solo. Some people just like rope soloing better than climbing with a partner.

But when someone asks "what is the best way to redpoint a climb", the belay method has absolutely nothing to do with it. The suggestion to rope solo it was about as relevant as a suggestion to make sure that his belayer uses a gri-gri, because the climber would be hanging a lot.

If the guy posted something like: 'help, I really want to redpoint this climb, but nobody wants to belay me, what do I do?' then maybe, just maybe, rope soloing would be relevant. With many caveats previously mentioned still applying.

With bad weather, I was off the hook for belay duties. But Tommy, being the animal he is, decided to work on the route self belayed with a mini traxion.Nothing like 5.14a friction in rain/snow.

Halfway through the day he let us know that he made a major breakthrough and found a way to get around the 5.14+ crux with some 5.13+. now the route only had 5 5.14 pitches… no problem!!

obviously some RC "experts" know better ...

they probably climb harder than old tommy there ... i mean come on ... 5,14a ... pffft ... only gumbies TR solo to work out the moves for that ...

I'll translate the underlined part for you: usually Tommy worked on the route with his partner belaying him. But when he found himself without a belayer one day, because the weather was really bad, he went to work on his project anyway, on self-belay, and it was a productive session for him.

I do not see a contradiction there, at all. He might have had a breakthrough that day with a belayer, just as easily. This is a long way from saying that rope soloing is the best tactic from redpointing something.

Yes, people can rope solo, and many do. If you are like Stéphane Perron, you climb Free Rider on El Cap solo. Some people just like rope soloing better than climbing with a partner.

But when someone asks "what is the best way to redpoint a climb", the belay method has absolutely nothing to do with it. The suggestion to rope solo it was about as relevant as a suggestion to make sure that his belayer uses a gri-gri, because the climber would be hanging a lot.

If the guy posted something like: 'help, I really want to redpoint this climb, but nobody wants to belay me, what do I do?' then maybe, just maybe, rope soloing would be relevant. With many caveats previously mentioned still applying.

If this doesn't get the point across, it may be time to give up on them.

I'll translate the underlined part for you: usually Tommy worked on the route with his partner belaying him. But when he found himself without a belayer one day, because the weather was really bad, he went to work on his project anyway, on self-belay, and it was a productive session for him.

I do not see a contradiction there, at all. He might have had a breakthrough that day with a belayer, just as easily. This is a long way from saying that rope soloing is the best tactic from redpointing something.

Yes, people can rope solo, and many do. If you are like Stéphane Perron, you climb Free Rider on El Cap solo. Some people just like rope soloing better than climbing with a partner.

But when someone asks "what is the best way to redpoint a climb", the belay method has absolutely nothing to do with it. The suggestion to rope solo it was about as relevant as a suggestion to make sure that his belayer uses a gri-gri, because the climber would be hanging a lot.

If the guy posted something like: 'help, I really want to redpoint this climb, but nobody wants to belay me, what do I do?' then maybe, just maybe, rope soloing would be relevant. With many caveats previously mentioned still applying.

and ill say it again ...

the original question is ..

...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

a TR solo device allows you to spend all the time you want on it ... regardlesss of partners

in the real world we dont all have belay slaves that can sit for hours on end whatever days we are free on the same route...

they usually want to get a decent amount of climbing in as well ...

even super duper famous climbers like old tommy or dave have issues finding belay biatches all the time ...

so whatever allows you to climb it as much as possible is "best" in my books ...

With bad weather, I was off the hook for belay duties. But Tommy, being the animal he is, decided to work on the route self belayed with a mini traxion.Nothing like 5.14a friction in rain/snow.

Halfway through the day he let us know that he made a major breakthrough and found a way to get around the 5.14+ crux with some 5.13+. now the route only had 5 5.14 pitches… no problem!!

obviously some RC "experts" know better ...

they probably climb harder than old tommy there ... i mean come on ... 5,14a ... pffft ... only gumbies TR solo to work out the moves for that ...

I'll translate the underlined part for you: usually Tommy worked on the route with his partner belaying him. But when he found himself without a belayer one day, because the weather was really bad, he went to work on his project anyway, on self-belay, and it was a productive session for him.

I do not see a contradiction there, at all. He might have had a breakthrough that day with a belayer, just as easily. This is a long way from saying that rope soloing is the best tactic from redpointing something.

Yes, people can rope solo, and many do. If you are like Stéphane Perron, you climb Free Rider on El Cap solo. Some people just like rope soloing better than climbing with a partner.

But when someone asks "what is the best way to redpoint a climb", the belay method has absolutely nothing to do with it. The suggestion to rope solo it was about as relevant as a suggestion to make sure that his belayer uses a gri-gri, because the climber would be hanging a lot.

If the guy posted something like: 'help, I really want to redpoint this climb, but nobody wants to belay me, what do I do?' then maybe, just maybe, rope soloing would be relevant. With many caveats previously mentioned still applying.

If this doesn't get the point across, it may be time to give up on them.

Only point I'm getting is that people don't rope solo because they don't want to or don't fully understand its benefits?. We are a communal species so climbing alone may not appeal to most. If a persons joy is fully in the climbing alone then i don't see what difference it makes to climb with or with ought somebody.

Add up all the time lost on the rock due to a partner having to call it early for what ever reason it would amount to quite allot, unless you are the one who always calls it early ofc. Plenty of times iv'e sensed my partner is just done and had enough.. so not to be a selfish bastard i leave it at that and head home, quietly frustrated.

Not having to rely on anybody else's time table and being able to climb to your own personal limits of stamina, roped solo or anything of the likes is IMO the best way to work a route that is accessible to do so. If all your partners are just as motivated and can keep up the pace with no conflicting climbing days then... crack on.

...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

I tend to break red point projects into three general ranges based the climber's skill at using red point tactics and the route's difficulty in relation to the climber's consistent flash level. Assuming that a climber has well developed stamina, is good at memorizing movement, and has well refined red point tactics a general framework might look like this:

1) Quick red points:These are routes that are 1 - 2 letter grades harder than the climber's consistent flash level and the climber can easily do them in a day as they take 1 - 4 tries. For routes in this range the goal in the first burn is to learn everything you need to know about the route for the red point. The goal of the second attempt is to get the red point. If you don't get the red point then figure out why, make corrections and then get the red point on the third try.

2) Moderate length red points: 3 - 4 letter grades above consistent flash level. These project can take 5 - 12 tries over the course of 1 - 3 days. They consist of several burns specifically dedicated to learning and memorizing the details of the route, the sequences, the moves, the clips, the rests, pacing, etc. In this range there are usually at least 3 learning burns and 2 - 4 attempts at the actual red point.

3) Long term projects. These are routes that are 5 or more letter grades above the climber's current flash level. They can take 15 - 20 or more tries over extended periods of time. Because the climber is working at a level high above his base level of skill in terms of fitness and movement success can be elusive, and the amount that can be achieved in a day is diminished. It can take many tries to do the basic learning necessary for an eventual red point, and it can be very hard to know when to switch from learning burns to red point burns. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

You made the unconditional claim that toprope soloing is "the best" method for working a redpoint project. Sure, toprope soloing is not an "obscure" technique, nor is it necessarily "just for rare situations." And, sure (I suppose) toprope soloing is the best solution "in some cases" (eg, when you can't find a partner). But none of that supports your claim that toprope soloing is unconditionally the best method for working a redpoint project. For god sake give it up. If your claim were true, then it would not be the case that almost no project is ever worked in this manner by anyone. No matter how many (few?) examples you can dig up by selectively trawling the Internet for support, there are literally 10s of thousands of examples to the contrary. Do good climbers on occasion work moves on solo toprope? Sure. Is it the norm? Not even remotely. What Universe do you climb in that you could actually have such an opinion?

Jay

Ah yes, I made the single largest mistake you can do on a message board: make an unconditional claim.

More bullshit. Now you're trying to claim that all you did was fail to disclose some rare exception to when "the best way to really project is to top rope solo," when what you did was exactly the opposite: you claimed that the rare exception itself was "the best."

"Whenever" is not answer to the question "how many projects?" Just as I figured you would, you refused to answer the question, probably because the answer is "zero."

Jay

whenver simply means whenver .. in my case most of the stuff my gumbay azz cant onsite or flash at the bluffs, murrin or malamute ... or other areas where the anshors are at the top

You've evaded the question twice. I've twice asked you about your experience working redpoint projects by toprope soloing, and you've twice answered, not about your experience with projecting, but about your experience toprope soloing.

I've no doubt whatsoever that you've spent an inordinate amount of time top rope soloing, and that you've dogged and aided your way up routes solo on top rope that you couldn't flash. What I doubt, and the question you keep evading, is whether, and how often, you have purposefully used toprope soloing as a tactic to work a redpoint project. Truth be told, I question whether you have ever worked a redpoint project at all.