"Pain Free" by Pete Egoscue

Heycal....that approach is one way to try to cut through the haze. For me, I would endeavor to find the approach that made the most intuitive sense, and then commit to that for a period of time (1-3 months).

One thing you might want to try is doing Egoscue at a licensed clinic if one is near you, or with a therapist from a licensed clinic via skype if one isn't. All clinics guarantee their work so you could "do Egoscue" for a month, have a few visits, and if you're better, then awesome. If you're not, politely tell your therapist you appreciate their help but you didn't improve and would like a full refund, and they'll give you all your money back. It's standard policy at every Egoscue clinic.

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They offer a money back guarantee? That's hugely surprising to hear. I would imagine that would lead to a host of disputes with something that relies on subjective opinions and home compliance.

Regarding what makes sense intuitively, most of them seem to. Well, the possible benefits of the Egoscue static back and supine groin stretch seem mystifying, but most others do

I agree foot position is a very important indicator about posture and function. However, in my experience and studies about form and posture, I cannot agree that feet and knees are designed to point straight forward. Instead, in any activity where critical balance is essential to be able to react quickly in any directions like in tennis and dance, I find the feet pointing outward achieves the best functionality. The only instance where the feet are supposed to point forward is when the weight is being propelled straight forward.

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I'm following this discussion as well. My feet have always pointed outward, and I just thought it was because I was suited for soccer as a kid. Seems very unnatural to me to keep them pointed straight ahead. (Of course, I have back pain now, so go figure...)

I'm following this discussion as well. My feet have always pointed outward, and I just thought it was because I was suited for soccer as a kid. Seems very unnatural to me to keep them pointed straight ahead. (Of course, I have back pain now, so go figure...)

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Are your feet pointing outward when walking? That is not a good habit which can cause suboptimal posture at lower back and pelvis. It might be worth trying to achieve straight feet when walking with good a good heel strike for the sake of your back.

Are your feet pointing outward when walking? That is not a good habit which can cause suboptimal posture at lower back and pelvis. It might be worth trying to achieve straight feet when walking with good a good heel strike for the sake of your back.

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I'm not sure. I would guess some. I will try and monitor and see. (Though I should add that walking is one of the few times my back doesn't hurt, if that's relevant.)

Re feet pointing straight, please don't misunderstand me. It's perfectly fine for them to point in whatever direction is required for a specific activity. If you're ice skating, they aren't going to be pointing straight ahead. Dancing? Same thing. But when you're done with the activity and you come to rest, your body should come back to neutral, and neutral is feet pointing straight ahead.

And yes, heycal, if at rest your feet point out to the side, and if your knees point the same direction, then what is happening is you have muscles playing tug of war between your hips and your low back. It's no mystery why you hurt.

Re what Pete wrote, depends on what the client's issue is, but I'd say probably 90% of our clients leave their first visit with a significant reduction in pain.

I had a client appointment yesterday afternoon on skype with someone who lives a few hours from my clinic. Was assessing him, putting him through a few functional tests, and could pretty clearly see why he was having some low right back pain. One of his hips was out of position such that when he tried to move it, it could only perform about a third of the movement and then the back had to kick in and help out the rest of the way, and the back was complaining about it. Gave him one exercise, saw the hip change position, told him to get up and walk around and tell me about his back. No back pain.

Doesn't always happen that fast, but that's not an unusual event in our clinics.

Forgot to comment on heycal's comment about our refund policy. nope, no confusion or issues whatsoever. The policy is very clear: the client has 1 year to get either a partial or full refund, for any reason. Period. We generally do two types of refunds. A partial would be if someone bought an 8 or 16 visit package, used a few of them and was feeling so much better they didn't feel they needed the rest. Or what sometimes happens here is their financial circumstances change, spouse got laid off, and suddenly they need the money back. No problem.

The full refund is when someone basically says "you're nice people and you tried to help me but I'm just no better" or "this is good stuff but I'm too lazy to do the exercises consistently and I'm just not going to follow the program" and they ask for all their money back. They get it, no questions asked. Just has to be within a year of the payment.

I probably write about 4-5 refund checks a year off a base of hundreds of new clients a year.

It's one thing I loved about Egoscue when I started as a client, and still do. I don't know anyone else in the health field willing to stand behind their service to that degree.

And yes, heycal, if at rest your feet point out to the side, and if your knees point the same direction, then what is happening is you have muscles playing tug of war between your hips and your low back. It's no mystery why you hurt.

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My feet are definitely pointing out at rest. Feels unnatural to point them directly straight. Short of 1950's style leg brace contraptions to keep my feet pointing straight, how am I supposed to change a decades long habit?

I had a client appointment yesterday afternoon on skype with someone who lives a few hours from my clinic. Was assessing him, putting him through a few functional tests, and could pretty clearly see why he was having some low right back pain. One of his hips was out of position such that when he tried to move it, it could only perform about a third of the movement and then the back had to kick in and help out the rest of the way, and the back was complaining about it. Gave him one exercise, saw the hip change position, told him to get up and walk around and tell me about his back. No back pain.

Doesn't always happen that fast, but that's not an unusual event in our clinics.

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Sounds too good to be true. How long had the client been in pain? Did he remain pain free for good, or did it come back 20 minutes later?

You can conduct sessions via skype? Isn't that hard to see and assess the client?

How about you fly to New York for the day, and if you can cure me, I'll give you a thousand bucks and the cost of your plane ticket and send you home the next day. (If I was rich, I'd offer you way more for a lasting benefit.) And if you act now, I'll throw in all the great New York Pizza and Chinese food you can eat!

Heycal......bones go where muscles tell them to go. Your muscles tell them to go one way now. Doesn't matter how long they've been doing that, the message can be changed.

How long did the dude feel better? Until his posture reverted to the position that was causing pain. That's why you do the exercises daily, so that your body doesn't just get into a better position, it gets posturally strong enough to stay there.

And I know it sounds too good to be true to you. That's why you're still in pain.

Re your offer, lol, it would have to be significantly more to get me to hop on a plane to do therapy. We've got a clinic in NY, though, if you live back that way. Near the NY/Conn border.

My feet are definitely pointing out at rest. Feels unnatural to point them directly straight. Short of 1950's style leg brace contraptions to keep my feet pointing straight, how am I supposed to change a decades long habit?

Sounds too good to be true. How long had the client been in pain? Did he remain pain free for good, or did it come back 20 minutes later?

You can conduct sessions via skype? Isn't that hard to see and assess the client?

How about you fly to New York for the day, and if you can cure me, I'll give you a thousand bucks and the cost of your plane ticket and send you home the next day. (If I was rich, I'd offer you way more for a lasting benefit.) And if you act now, I'll throw in all the great New York Pizza and Chinese food you can eat!

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Hey Cal, i am close by to you and can definitely help you..email me atcomeback@safe-mail.net and we can talk on the phone

Heycal......bones go where muscles tell them to go. Your muscles tell them to go one way now. Doesn't matter how long they've been doing that, the message can be changed.

How long did the dude feel better? Until his posture reverted to the position that was causing pain. That's why you do the exercises daily, so that your body doesn't just get into a better position, it gets posturally strong enough to stay there.

And I know it sounds too good to be true to you. That's why you're still in pain.

Re your offer, lol, it would have to be significantly more to get me to hop on a plane to do therapy. We've got a clinic in NY, though, if you live back that way. Near the NY/Conn border.

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How about I throw in a pair of Broadway tickets? Don't you want see "Cats"??

I actually just emailed the New York clinic and heard back from them. They confirm they do have a money back guarantee, though I'm still skeptical of that aspect and how many hoops one would have to jump through to actually get it back.

As for posture reverting to the position that caused pain, you make it sound so easy to prevent that. Hell, if it was, I would have managed to stand up straight and stay that way after the first couple of times of hearing that as a kid. And as an adult, I've often been instructed to do or not do something to prevent pain, but actually re-learing a bad habit is easier said than done.

Very hard to believe that 20 minutes of daily exercises is going to change the often unconscious bad habits practiced in the other 23 and 1/2 hours of the day.

Heycal.....i'm not endeavoring to make it sound either easy or difficult to change posture permanently. More superficial change can be obtained pretty quickly. Deep-seated, long-standing issues take longer, and much more work on the part of the client. Doing Egoscue therapy is NOT like going to a chiropractor. It's a lifestyle shift, and requires a significant commitment on the part of the client to doing their exercises daily to create the desired postural change. If that's something you're willing to do, then I'd schedule a visit with the NY guys. If not, I'd attempt to find a more symptomatic-oriented treatment.

Re the refund policy, no hoops. It's unconditional. When we first opened our clinic I asked Pete if he ever put conditions on a refund and his response was "no. They can ask for it for any reason. If they used all 8 visits, met all their goals, got massively better but don't like the color of your carpet and want a refund, they get a refund."

Only limitation is it's gotta be requested within a year after the payment was made. That's it.

I cannot stress enough, though: Egoscue is work. You will hurt until you change your posture, and changing your posture will require consistent effort on your part. It's not a pill you can take. It's the reason we'll never be mainstream.

When I started as a client, my routines were well in excess of an hour. In my first year I missed two days, and those only because I was in bed with the flu. It's why in a year I went from being told I'd never run again to playing tennis pain free.

Heycal.....i'm not endeavoring to make it sound either easy or difficult to change posture permanently. More superficial change can be obtained pretty quickly. Deep-seated, long-standing issues take longer, and much more work on the part of the client. Doing Egoscue therapy is NOT like going to a chiropractor. It's a lifestyle shift, and requires a significant commitment on the part of the client to doing their exercises daily to create the desired postural change. If that's something you're willing to do, then I'd schedule a visit with the NY guys. If not, I'd attempt to find a more symptomatic-oriented treatment.

Re the refund policy, no hoops. It's unconditional. When we first opened our clinic I asked Pete if he ever put conditions on a refund and his response was "no. They can ask for it for any reason. If they used all 8 visits, met all their goals, got massively better but don't like the color of your carpet and want a refund, they get a refund."

Only limitation is it's gotta be requested within a year after the payment was made. That's it.

I cannot stress enough, though: Egoscue is work. You will hurt until you change your posture, and changing your posture will require consistent effort on your part. It's not a pill you can take. It's the reason we'll never be mainstream.

When I started as a client, my routines were well in excess of an hour. In my first year I missed two days, and those only because I was in bed with the flu. It's why in a year I went from being told I'd never run again to playing tennis pain free.

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I understand their are no easy solutions. But if all it takes is a half hour or less a day of exercises that any normal person can do, I'd be happy to do that work if that's truly going to result in the other 23 1/2 hours being pain free. Very simple to me, and worth 1500 bucks.

IF it works...

Ever see the "Curb your enthusiasm" episode where Larry tries to get his money back from the acccupunturist? I barely remember it, but I do know he failed!

Are you serious? We offer a guarantee that you haven't gotten from any one of your practitioners and you come back with that?

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Why does that seem to offend you? Many businesses offer money back guarantees as a business model, figuring people will be too lazy or somehow unable or unwilling to meet whatever requirements there may be to actually get your money back. (Not to mention some forms of health care are covered under insurance and thus impose no financial risk on the consumer who wants to try them.)

If you are truly confident in your services, you would be confident enough to charge for them after they are rendered. All sorts of businesses follow this model -- restaurants, hair salons, etc -- and don't make you pay until afterwards.

If entire industries can do this successfully, why is it offensive to ask why you can't? Just because nobody else in your field does it?

And if you don't feel it was worthwhile, you can leave without paying.

And if you pay and later decide we're not for you, you can do something no other health-related provider does (to my knowledge), ask for and immediately get your money back.

But seriously, you should go do something else. Egoscue can help you but you've already got one foot out the door looking for excuses and exit strategies. ****, you're already questioning our integrity about how we administer our refund policy and we haven't done anything but give you a ton of free advice on a message board.

And if you don't feel it was worthwhile, you can leave without paying.

And if you pay and later decide we're not for you, you can do something no other health-related provider does (to my knowledge), ask for and immediately get your money back.

But seriously, you should go do something else. Egoscue can help you but you've already got one foot out the door looking for excuses and exit strategies. ****, you're already questioning our integrity about how we administer our refund policy and we haven't done anything but give you a ton of free advice on a message board.

Go do something else.

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Perhaps I should, since you guys seem very touchy when asked about your payment policies. Not a great sign.

Also, if Egoscue is to be believed in the book he's selling, one should have no real need for clinic visits any way. He lays out a set of exercises and says you'll experience a "signficant reduction in pain" after your first twenty minutes of doing them. All he seems to ask in return is that you do the exercises correctly and in order, etc. Fair enough, and simple enough. Read the instructions, do the work, and see near immediate improvement. I don't recall him saying you also need to go to a clinic once a week and pay 1500 bucks up front or any of that. (Or maybe I haven't gottten to that part yet?)

If he's right, that's great. If he's wrong, he's using typical salesman hyberbole, or worse. If the book fails to deliver on the promises made in the book, why should any other aspect of what he sells be trusted?

Hell, why is he even selling anything else at all? If you truly need clinic visits in order to succeed, he shouldn't be selling a book purporting to offer a cure from instructions found in the book. But if the book is correct and you have a 95% chance of success if you simply follow the instructions, then why would one need to pay 1500 bucks for clinic visits?

There seems a troubling contradiction here, why is partly why I've been pressing you on the details of the payment policies. Something is not quite adding up, and any defense offered up along the lines of "well, some particular people need special attention and the book alone won't work for them in spite of what it claims" or "anyone who fails probably was too lazy to do it right and their fault not ours" isn't particularly reasurring.

In any event, I will likely try the Egoscue method on my own if my PT fails to deliver results, or perhaps even concurrently if that's permitted. With any luck, I will come back soon and post "Gee, I apologize for questioning any aspect of this stuff. This guy is a genius and I'm cured!" This would be some egg on my face I would love to have in exchange for being pain free.

(Lest anyone think I'm a lazy malcontent with no willpower, I manage to force myself to exercise daily to keep fit and not eat what I really want, which I find to be tedious and never ending WORK, day in, day out, week after week, month after month. And more relevant, I managed to quit a 25 year, 2 pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey simply by reading a book on how to do it. That was one book that really did deliver what it promised -- and I was even more skeptical about that one before I read it than this stuff.)

heycal...just letting you know, I didn't read your last essay and I'm done conversing with you on this topic. I've been very generous with my time with you. I wish you well with your pain and for the sake of my buddies in NY, I very much hope you don't go see them.

From all your posts, it is clear you do have a great work ethic and willpower.

Hopefully you and Posture Guy will not part on such a bad note.

He has been good enough to take and interest in this forum, and has been good enough to try and provide you with some advice.

I think, like you, Posture Guy is hard working, and I am sure he has plenty of things to do other than providing some free guidance here (including recovering from his own recent shoulder injury).

Perhaps you see him as over sensitive and over reacting, But it apparently just hit him the wrong way that after taking the time to try help, it sounded like you were complaining.
(I don't think you were trying to be difficult, but your remarks certainly could be seen to be pretty cold after his efforts to help.

Again, I hope you really do get better.

And I think something that Posture Guy said likely does hold the key to your eventual improvement:

"The spine is designed to move in both directions, and when at rest to occupy a neutral middle ground."

"Some people can do very well working from a book. Others, like me, need more individualized assistance."

"help me understand WHY I hurt, map out the action plan of what I need to do to remedy it, help me understand how that action plan will remedy it, and then I'll do the work."

And if you don't feel it was worthwhile, you can leave without paying.

And if you pay and later decide we're not for you, you can do something no other health-related provider does (to my knowledge), ask for and immediately get your money back.

But seriously, you should go do something else. Egoscue can help you but you've already got one foot out the door looking for excuses and exit strategies. ****, you're already questioning our integrity about how we administer our refund policy and we haven't done anything but give you a ton of free advice on a message board.

Go do something else.

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Hi Postureguy, i hear you my friend..i can speak for many that i love having you here as a professional resource on pain/movement issues..It's easy for people to open up threads and ask for advice then poke holes in everything that's GIVEN to them..I am going to continue my diet program in another thread and most likely another troll will come in with a stupid one-liner like "I play tennis everyday or beat so and so by just eating hot dogs ,pizza and beer"..
Those of us who spend a lot of time in this health thread are genuinely concerned about improving ourselves, lasting longer in life with tennis as our love, and possibly helping others along the way..
Again don't worry about people who have so many issues with themselves that they just want to hear themselves talk and then contradict or brag about something they have done. As you read their posts you get a sense of who and what they really are. Those types are not going to take the time to investigate something new and spend the hard hours learning to help themselves. My sister who was a teacher for 40 years always told me you can't save everyone.

Thank you, Charlie. I appreciate your help, and I also appreciate the help offered by PostureGuy. I didn't mind to imply that I didn't, but once I asked some tough questions about the Egoscue program, its apparently contradictory claims, and its refund policies, he got super defensive and touchy and seemed to take it personally. It was not intended to be a criticism of him.

Ultimately Egoscue sounds pretty similar to many programs out there, and indeed many products, sold in America in general: Hyperbolically hyped with breathless sales tactics designed to get you to buy the book, product, or service, suggesting that this product or service alone offers what lesser competitors do not, and promising more than it delivers.

Does it mean it's bogus? No necessarily. Or at least, not any more so than McKenzie, foam rollers, mattress companies, or the countless number of other products or services aiming to help those in back pain. I'm sure many actually can help at least some people -- or more precisely, a correlation will exist between using a product or service and improvement for some -- so it's just a matter of seeing what appears to work for each person, I guess.

Again, as someone who has benefited tremendously after reading an improbable sounding book that offered improbable results ("The Easy Way to quit smoking"!), I know even the most unlikely products can work sometimes.

Heycal, just to be clear, I have zero problem with someone asking "tough questions". If you think my annoyance with you is because of the questions you asked, you are painfully out of touch with your behavior.

If someone wants to ask me honest questions, I'm happy to answer them. I've demonstated that repeatedly both on this thread and others. Start questioning my integrity and we're done.

Heycal, one thing I forgot to mention earlier. Based on what you described above, one ecise that I think you would most likely need is called Supine Groin Progressive and uses our wood tower. You can see a video describing it here:

Heycal, one thing I forgot to mention earlier. Based on what you described above, one ecise that I think you would most likely need is called Supine Groin Progressive and uses our wood tower. You can see a video describing it here:

Re feet pointing straight, please don't misunderstand me. It's perfectly fine for them to point in whatever direction is required for a specific activity. If you're ice skating, they aren't going to be pointing straight ahead. Dancing? Same thing. But when you're done with the activity and you come to rest, your body should come back to neutral, and neutral is feet pointing straight ahead.

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Well, the neutral position is what I'm talking about. I believe at the neutral position, when you stand still in a fully erect posture in good balance, the feet should point slightly outward and not straight forward.

When running (I've run some marathons), I was experiencing some pains in the groin. Discovered that I was forcing my feet totally straight forward when running. When I allowed them to point slightly outwards, just by relaxing, the pain disappeared, and I got no other trouble from it. Just my experience.

Povl....i tell clients I do NOT want them trying to force their feet straight when they walk or run. If they could do it 'organically', they would be doing so already. So when someone is forcing it like that, typically what they're doing is layering another compensation on top of their existing compensations, and that is rarely a positive thing.

Posture is like breathing. It's something you CAN control, but you're not designed to have to control it. It should happen at essentially an autonomic level.

Well, the neutral position is what I'm talking about. I believe at the neutral position, when you stand still in a fully erect posture in good balance, the feet should point slightly outward and not straight forward.

When running (I've run some marathons), I was experiencing some pains in the groin. Discovered that I was forcing my toes totally straight forward when running. When I allowed them to point slightly outwards, just by relaxing, the pain disappeared, and I got no other trouble from it. Just my experience.

Povl....i tell clients I do NOT want them trying to force their feet straight when they walk or run. If they could do it 'organically', they would be doing so already. So when someone is forcing it like that, typically what they're doing is layering another compensation on top of their existing compensations, and that is rarely a positive thing.

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So it sounds like the take-away from these posts is to just let the feet go where they go and not try to force them into a straight position when moving, but there's some disagreement on what to do while standing.

Povl....i tell clients I do NOT want them trying to force their feet straight when they walk or run. If they could do it 'organically', they would be doing so already. So when someone is forcing it like that, typically what they're doing is layering another compensation on top of their existing compensations, and that is rarely a positive thing.

Posture is like breathing. It's something you CAN control, but you're not designed to have to control it. It should happen at essentially an autonomic level.

Heycal, I don't recommend forcing feet straight in general, moving or standing. Now, during our exercises, yes, feet go straight when directed. And if someone wants to play with that position when they're standing in line at the bank or grocery store, no problem. But in general, just let your body go where it goes. As our clients progress through the protocol, they'll notice the feet straightening out gradually over time on their own.

For what it's worth, I showed the back exercises in the Pain Free book to my PT today. Interestingly, she thought they were all good for me except the static extension. Said I had too much lumbar curve already, and that that would excarebate it due to the hips moving forward or something and creating too much sway in the back I think. Said I should focus on other thing to combat my arthritis up and down the spine, not to mention my "mild kyphoscoliosis" in the thoracic region (that's from the MRI).

No idea if she's right or wrong about the potential problems of the static extension for me, but I thought I'd mention it. I didn't get the sense that she was the world's greatest expert on the back yet, so who knows?

Also said I was highly flexible/hypermobile and was surprised at how high and easily I could do the basic McKenzie extention. And I was like "Me? Flexible?? That's a first..."

heycal, it sounds like your thoracic region might not have a very good posture, and it definitely will affect the lower back along with the leg usage and pelvis balance. As you go through the exercises and therapies it would be very useful to learn a bit about the concept of posture in general. If you are motivated try the following book. It's one of the best imo.

One note: some of our exercises will put the client into lumbar extension, and the casual/untrained observer will think "well, this person doesn't need lumbar extension so that exercise won't be good for them". But there's a fundamental distinction between being in lumbar extension with the lumbar paraspinal muscles engaged and working, or relaxing.

For example, I've had clients with lumbar hyper-lordosis (excessive lumbar curve) where I put them in the Static Extension Position ecise heycal references above, and one of my intentions is to use the position to get their lumbar paraspinals to release. They come out of the ecise with a less anterior pelvic tilt and a more moderated lumbar curve.

In other words, the functional purpose of an ecise is not always readily apparent.

heycal, it sounds like your thoracic region might not have a very good posture, and it definitely will affect the lower back along with the leg usage and pelvis balance. As you go through the exercises and therapies it would be very useful to learn a bit about the concept of posture in general. If you are motivated try the following book. It's one of the best imo.

I can easily believe my thoracic region has horrible posture, judging by the way it looks and feels. Thanks for the links on the books.

Again, if only I had listened as a boy when adults said to stand up straight... Not so easy changing habits at fifty. But of course, when you're young you can't imagine such things being problems for you someday. I go through this with my 17 year old daughter as I beg her to wear sunscreen and offer her various reasons and horror stories. But it just doesn't really take...

One note: some of our exercises will put the client into lumbar extension, and the casual/untrained observer will think "well, this person doesn't need lumbar extension so that exercise won't be good for them". But there's a fundamental distinction between being in lumbar extension with the lumbar paraspinal muscles engaged and working, or relaxing.

For example, I've had clients with lumbar hyper-lordosis (excessive lumbar curve) where I put them in the Static Extension Position ecise heycal references above, and one of my intentions is to use the position to get their lumbar paraspinals to release. They come out of the ecise with a less anterior pelvic tilt and a more moderated lumbar curve.

In other words, the functional purpose of an ecise is not always readily apparent.

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Sounds reasonable. I actually rather like this particular exercise, so may go ahead with it.

One thing I like about the Egoscue exercises is how pleasant some of them are. Sure, the air bench ain't fun, but static back and supine groin? What's not to love about lying around relaxing like that?

Yeah, as long as I'm in a good frame of mind I LOVE doing supine groin progressive in the tower. Now, I'm a very visually-oriented person. So what I did was I bought angled glasses from amazon so when I'm lying on my back I can see my flat screen TV without any effort. Then typically I'll watch a tennis match or basketball game or something when I'm in the tower. I rarely just lie there unless I'm really beat and just want to relax and decompress. But it's great for that, too.

But then there are our ecises on the flip side of the effort coin. Bear crawls, crab walks, inchworms, roller coasters, triangle, extended lateral......great ways to kick your own butt in a short amount of time with no equipment.

Yeah, as long as I'm in a good frame of mind I LOVE doing supine groin progressive in the tower. Now, I'm a very visually-oriented person. So what I did was I bought angled glasses from amazon so when I'm lying on my back I can see my flat screen TV without any effort. Then typically I'll watch a tennis match or basketball game or something when I'm in the tower. I rarely just lie there unless I'm really beat and just want to relax and decompress. But it's great for that, too.

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Yup, nice that you can watch TV with some of these. Angled glasses? I want something like for swimming backstroke. Hate not seeing where I'm going.

Yeah, as long as I'm in a good frame of mind I LOVE doing supine groin progressive in the tower. Now, I'm a very visually-oriented person. So what I did was I bought angled glasses from amazon so when I'm lying on my back I can see my flat screen TV without any effort. Then typically I'll watch a tennis match or basketball game or something when I'm in the tower. I rarely just lie there unless I'm really beat and just want to relax and decompress. But it's great for that, too.

But then there are our ecises on the flip side of the effort coin. Bear crawls, crab walks, inchworms, roller coasters, triangle, extended lateral......great ways to kick your own butt in a short amount of time with no equipment.

When I am in pain I actually do not find it very hard to change habits. When the pain goes away however, it can be harder to keep it up. But that sort of regulates itself.

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I know what you mean. If something really hurts a lot, you quickly learn not to do it. However, I find it trickier when the pain is the kind of lower level, insidious sort that creeps up on you when sitting or lying in what you initially perceive to be a comfortable or natural position. Much harder to shake those habits.

Speaking of habits, what do you back pain folks do for abs, since many of these back programs warn of doing crunches and similar traditional ab exercises, and thus we need to break those old habits? I know one doesn't need to go crazy doing ab work, but I still like the idea of a doing just little something for the abs, even if only 5 minutes every couple of days, if only pyschologically.

But in terms of helping to contribute to a healthy back, they're no more or less important than any other muscle group that attaches to the hip and pelvic girdle. Abs, hip flexors, spinal erectors, glutes, deeper hip muscles like the 'deep 6', even the diaphragm, those all play a huge role in spinal position and function.

The "best" way to work the abs depends on the issues of the respective individual and what they can safely do without compensating out of the movement. Full situps might be great for one person, damaging for another. Planks, same thing.

I'm a big fan of rebounding as a form of exercise. I use one called the Cellerciser. Spend two minutes bouncing on it while sitting on it with feet lifted off the ground and you get an amazing ab workout.

I'm a big fan of rebounding as a form of exercise. I use one called the Cellerciser. Spend two minutes bouncing on it while sitting on it with feet lifted off the ground and you get an amazing ab workout.

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Ye olde trampoline, huh?

Funny how these old exercises and contraptions come back into style. Trampolines, wind sprints, etc.

Has the hula hoop and pogo stick made a comeback yet? Probably both great work outs...

Heycal......from what you described, your posture is begging for Supine Groin Progressive using the wood tower shown in the video I linked above. Regardless of what else you do to help your back, that is likely going to be a significant help to you.

You're spending a LOT of time online searching around for an answer. Presumably your time is worth something. One option is to just go to the NY clinic, purchase an individual visit, see if it helps, and after 2 weeks if you don't think it's taking you anywhere, get your money back and go do something else. But the odds are good that you aren't doing the ecises you specifically need for your unique situation, and you are likely not doing the exercises correctly, which will mitigate their benefit.

Both were true for me when I tried working from the book, and for virtually everyone who walks into my clinic who tries working from the book. Many people get significant benefit nonetheless, but when the generic stuff in the book isn't working (as was the case with me), then the issues above are likely the reason why.

Foundation is cool. I've got the guy's book and have done most of his exercises. For certain my of my clients I've recommended his stuff and it's been very helpful. For other clients of mine, if they tried to do his stuff they would not have a positive result. Their bodies are just functionally unable to perform the movements.

if you want to dabble in it, go do a youtube search for 'the founder', it's like their core flagship exercise. Watch the video, study the form closely, then give it a try if you think your body is up to it and see what happens.

Heycal......from what you described, your posture is begging for Supine Groin Progressive using the wood tower shown in the video I linked above. Regardless of what else you do to help your back, that is likely going to be a significant help to you.

You're spending a LOT of time online searching around for an answer. Presumably your time is worth something. One option is to just go to the NY clinic, purchase an individual visit, see if it helps, and after 2 weeks if you don't think it's taking you anywhere, get your money back and go do something else. But the odds are good that you aren't doing the ecises you specifically need for your unique situation, and you are likely not doing the exercises correctly, which will mitigate their benefit.

Both were true for me when I tried working from the book, and for virtually everyone who walks into my clinic who tries working from the book. Many people get significant benefit nonetheless, but when the generic stuff in the book isn't working (as was the case with me), then the issues above are likely the reason why.

Foundation is cool. I've got the guy's book and have done most of his exercises. For certain my of my clients I've recommended his stuff and it's been very helpful. For other clients of mine, if they tried to do his stuff they would not have a positive result. Their bodies are just functionally unable to perform the movements.

if you want to dabble in it, go do a youtube search for 'the founder', it's like their core flagship exercise. Watch the video, study the form closely, then give it a try if you think your body is up to it and see what happens.

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Thanks, Posture Guy. Yes, I've spent time online reading about all this stuff, but I'm also doing things in the meantime. (So its not all talk, no action!) And I may indeed go to the local Egoscue clinic sometime. I think they may actually be in the same building where my daughter's eye doctor is.

First up is this Foundation stuff though, which I'm trying to do correctly as possible since I know that is critical with many of these methods. I'm on day 3 of doing their basic '3 exercises in 4 minutes' routine a few times a day. I'll give it a week or two and see if I notice any improvement.

As for the Supine Groin Progressive, it may indeed be the key for me sometime. But oddly, when I did the book version of this exercise for a few days -- non-progressive, no tower, leg on the ground or propped up another chair or something -- it almost seemed as if I felt worse afterwards. (None of the other exercises bothered me negatively, just this one.)

One thing I haven't seen in the Egoscue literature, or the video I watched, is any sort of emphasis on good habits in sitting, sleeping, watching TV, or other such activities. (Maybe you guys do and I've missed it?)

I know many believe that all the good exercising in the world ain't gonna help you if you slouch in a chair or hunch over a keyboard or whatnot, and they talk about this stuff in their programs. You guys agree or have a different take on that?

Re supine groin progressive, it's a completely different exercise than the one you tried. I had the same experience working from the book. Tried the one with one leg bent at 90 degrees on a chair, the other on the floor propped up to not point out. Felt nothing in it, no real change afterwards, maybe a little worse. Did the Progressive version at the clinic and it was VERY different. My hip flexors were so tight that they would not release with the leg all the way down, so the body just tensed up. It was too much elongation demand so it torqued my spine. Starting up high with the hip in flexion puts the psoas into an advantaged position to release, MUCH less of a release demand than with it on the floor. It gives a little, then you lower it a bit, gives a little more, etc...

The version you did, I'll put it this way: in the last year I've probably used it twice in my clinic. If that.

Re Foundation, yes, pay close attention to form. Like with our stuff, makes a huge difference.

Re your last two questions, that's where I think the Gokhale Method excels. Addresses those issues specifically. Re sitting at a computer, Pete's book "Pain Free at your PC" is very helpful, as well.

Re supine groin progressive, it's a completely different exercise than the one you tried. I had the same experience working from the book. Tried the one with one leg bent at 90 degrees on a chair, the other on the floor propped up to not point out. Felt nothing in it, no real change afterwards, maybe a little worse. Did the Progressive version at the clinic and it was VERY different. My hip flexors were so tight that they would not release with the leg all the way down, so the body just tensed up. It was too much elongation demand so it torqued my spine. Starting up high with the hip in flexion puts the psoas into an advantaged position to release, MUCH less of a release demand than with it on the floor. It gives a little, then you lower it a bit, gives a little more, etc...

The version you did, I'll put it this way: in the last year I've probably used it twice in my clinic. If that.

Re Foundation, yes, pay close attention to form. Like with our stuff, makes a huge difference.

Re your last two questions, that's where I think the Gokhale Method excels. Addresses those issues specifically. Re sitting at a computer, Pete's book "Pain Free at your PC" is very helpful, as well.

Re supine groin progressive, it's a completely different exercise than the one you tried. I had the same experience working from the book. Tried the one with one leg bent at 90 degrees on a chair, the other on the floor propped up to not point out. Felt nothing in it, no real change afterwards, maybe a little worse. Did the Progressive version at the clinic and it was VERY different. My hip flexors were so tight that they would not release with the leg all the way down, so the body just tensed up. It was too much elongation demand so it torqued my spine. Starting up high with the hip in flexion puts the psoas into an advantaged position to release, MUCH less of a release demand than with it on the floor. It gives a little, then you lower it a bit, gives a little more, etc...

The version you did, I'll put it this way: in the last year I've probably used it twice in my clinic. If that.

Re Foundation, yes, pay close attention to form. Like with our stuff, makes a huge difference.

Re your last two questions, that's where I think the Gokhale Method excels. Addresses those issues specifically. Re sitting at a computer, Pete's book "Pain Free at your PC" is very helpful, as well.