Paco Pena

Transcript

Andrew Ford: Well, in there somewhere was Paco Pena. There were an awful lot of other people, clapping and shouting and singing, and making an enormous amount of noise, but one of them was Paco Pena. He's joined me in the studio. Welcome to The Music Show, it's good to see you.

Bulerias is gypsy music, isn't it?

Paco Pena: Well it's a funny way really to describe Bulerias, I mean Bulerias, or anything in flamenco is gypsy, because gypsies belong to Andalucia, which is where has created flamenco. It's not gypsy specifically, or in a separate kind of way. The gypsies are absolutely part of flamenco in every sense, not just Bulerias. But flamenco is not gypsy music, it's music that includes gypsies, but it is from Andalucia, with many other influences.

Andrew Ford: The impression I get though is that all of the cultural influences that were in Andalucia were in a sense, brought together by the arrival of the gypsies in, what? the 15th century, that the gypsies stirred the pot, if you like.

Paco Pena: Well again it's one way of looking at it. I think the gypsies perhaps discovered in the countryside, in the land, a folklore that was hugely spicy, and with many great interesting elements, not least, oriental, because of the oriental influence from the Eastern Mediterranean, which for so many centuries had been around, in Spain, and in Andalucia specifically, and particularly. Now the gypsies are also supposed to be oriental people. Now whether that was akin to folklore expression, that certainly could be a possibility. But they discovered the elements in Andalucia, and that I think is crucially important to know. The elements are ancient, and a great mix, which eventually, if you like, the gypsies are the ones that assimilated those elements and perhaps forged, if you like, the flamenco, and the expression that becomes unique and is flamenco, but it's not their music.

Andrew Ford: So what elements did they find in Andalucia when they arrived?

Paco Pena: Well if you imagine that 800 years of Arab culture is very significant, and the Arabs obviously have a very particular way of doing singing, and they have a particular folklore, and it's clearly a different culture from the indigenous. Jewish communities also had their own expression. By some theme, however you pronounce it, the Phoenicians, the Greeks, the Romans, everything has been coming to Andalucia and has been in Andalucia, and Andalucia has been recognised in the year 1 was written actually, that Andalucian singers, musicians, dancers, were brought to Rome to perform for the elite. So that is a singing land, that is a dancing land, for whatever reasons, and the great mixture of elements. That points to a rich folklore, which eventually, with the inclusion of the gypsies, becomes even richer. But it's not uniquely gypsy.

Andrew Ford: No. I see what you mean. I must say when I listen to the singing for instance in flamenco, I hear Arabs and Africans in the sound of the voice, in the style of the singing.

Paco Pena: Absolutely. But you must remember also that flamenco, just that word, means a form of singing. Actually the dance, the guitar and all that, is part of it, but actually flamenco is a form of singing.

Andrew Ford: It's a vocal form.

Paco Pena: So in a sense you are also contributing to the answer, by just observing that, that you hear these tones in the voice.

Andrew Ford: And also that the urgency I suppose, of the vocal communication is something else that I associate with Africa in particular, and it seems to me to be something which is fundamental to flamenco.

Paco Pena: It certainly is.

Andrew Ford: It's not to do with how beautiful your voice is, it's how well you tell the story.

Paco Pena: Absolutely. I'm ignorant when you mention that it reminds you of other cultures, I'm afraid I don't know so much about those, but certainly it is true in flamenco; there is a sort of bursting out of what you want to say, what you need to say, never mind wanting, you just need to bring out your emotions, and it comes out however it comes out, without concern for beauty, as you say.

Andrew Ford: Paco, we've talked about the history of flamenco before on this show, although not for some years, but what about the future of flamenco? One of the things that's happened, I suppose particularly in the last 20 years, is this phenomenon of 'world music', where there is a sort of touring caravan that goes around which puts together Irish music and Madagascan music and the didgeridoo and the castanets. Where does flamenco fit in with this? I get the impression that to some extent flamenco has managed to resist this particular trend.

Paco Pena: Yes, it's interesting. I think, I say humbly, that the flamenco has a very strong character, and perhaps the reason it still is in isolation, you can recognise, but it does fit commercially in any sense, in any case, it fits in that category, with record companies and their marketing of all that, is part of the world music thing.

Andrew Ford: But it had an international profile before Peter Gabriel came along.

Paco Pena: Well indeed, of course. And that is why I say it's a sad occurrence really that such beautiful cultures that exist everywhere, not only flamenco, but so many, simply have to be thrown into a bag for marketing reasons really. It is sad. I think there may be some benefits in that, in that the power of the world music phenomenon may help musical cultures that otherwise might be lost, and never would have a chance to be exposed and to be seen and so on. So black and white I suppose, when you have to make a mixture, you put one thing, there is a good thing and there is not such a good thing in all that.

But the interesting thing also perhaps, I'll let you speak, I don't want to take on your show, but when you say the future of flamenco, versus the history of flamenco, there is an interesting point there as well, never mind the world music phenomenon, and that is that flamenco really in those 20 years that you mentioned, perhaps 30 years, certainly the last few decades, flamenco has developed dramatically as well, has in a way been able to learn, to hear many other things, to be exposed to other types of music, rich and beautiful, and for that reason young artists in flamenco have learned a lot, and put a lot of new elements into flamenco. Now that, especially the guitar, the dancing as well, has actually come to a dazzling display, and when you mention the future, the only thing is there is a bit of danger that it might become too diffused, and that is why in a sense, I would like to feel that I take pride in presenting young artists who are modern, who feel the need to say something different, but nevertheless they are well rooted in the tradition that makes flamenco unique, and that is essential for the future of flamenco. However modern you want to be, whatever, you still have to retain those basic essential things that made it.

Andrew Ford: And what about the traditional stuff, because when we were mentioning the Womad Caravan, some of these musicians from Madagascar or wherever, haven't been home to Madagascar for years now, because they've been doing Womad, going around the world, now you spend a lot of time in hotel rooms too. How do you stay in touch with the tradition, with the street?

Paco Pena: Because you see, I'm very lucky. I run a company, I have a company of people and none of us ever leaves Spain basically, even though I have a home in London, I'm always in Spain with my company, and they all live there, and when I'm in flamenco, I'm with the people that are really flamenco all of their lives. So you see, how can you get out of it? There's no danger. I mean we all go to hotel rooms, including the company, but you see essentially they live in the core of the culture, and indeed, so do I. I live with them. Artists have to travel, but we don't need to go to one of these farms or something, to regain anything, because we're always engaged in what flamenco is, really.

Andrew Ford: Well thanks for travelling again to Australia, Paco Pena. I'll give your dates to our listeners in a moment, but really what people I think want to hear now is you playing the guitar. Thanks for coming in.