If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Would you tell a professional how to do some part of his job? Solicitor or Consultant Doctor say?"

If you can't take it then don't give it sunshine. The world is full of people with different opinions than you. Ignore them if you want to or discuss them on their merits.

When you imply they are beneath you then expect people to take the piss.

On the merits of your original question above if a consultant doctor told me I needed operation A to solve the issue and after I'd paid for operation A he/she then told me what I actually needed was operation B I'd certainly be asking him/her questions. It doesn't mean I'd be any the wiser about which procedure was actually better but I wouldn't take a piece of paper on the wall as a reason to accept being ridden sideways without lube while I smiled about it and thanked them for their superior training.

If nobody asks the questions then nobody gets held to account (if my boss doesn't l ask the question why I'm spending so much fuppin time on Munsterfans then he'll never get an answer to it)

JVG was forwards coach to what was without a doubt the most powderpuff (beaten in a WC by Japan ffs) and unsuccessful Springboks (47% win rate under Coatzee) side of all time. Fla (who seems to have sorted out our scrum issues before Rassie or JVG arrived) decided not to renew his contract (perhaps for his own personal reasons but it leaves question marks).

There is no sign at all from the last 18 months that we have anything that could be remotely described as a "style of play" (work in progress or otherwise, Munster-way or otherwise).

With all of that when the coaching team look for the sticking plaster rather then I get worried and nobody will convince me that a 2 month signing is not a sticking plaster (to be put beside the Alby shaped one that we already have along with the 3 other senior contracted scrum halves - Cronin, Casey and McCarthy; each of whom was signed by Van Grann so not like the problem of inheriting Hart/Williams Sherry, Keatley, DOC2 and having to accept them as a sunk cost to be managed out like last year.). Van Grann also signed BJ on to a 2 year contract and then never played him and promoted Nash from the academy a year early and hasn't played him (either in last years Pro14 or this years Celtic Cup).

Read the various articles and interviews published over the past few years with Cian Bohane, David Johnston and Cathal Sheridan about how they felt within the system (mostly before JVG time to be fair) and you'll get an insight about how fringe players feel. There is not a single doubt in my mind that BJ and Steven Fitz and others felt the some version of the same thoughts and it is more likely than not that Coombes, Daly, Nash, SOC et al will start to feel the same if things don't change regarding how the set-up treats the wider squad.

To my mind that means having a cohesive and clear plan about how we want to play that the squad understands and buys into on that front the buck stops and ends with JVG as head coach. It requires the full squad being coached to have the skills needed to play that style and to swap in and out through the Pro14.

You claim that we don't have the same caliber of prospects coming through as Leinster, but neither did Connacht or Scarlets but with a coherent approach to coaching what they did have they both managed to lift a trophy over the current RWC cycle and we didn't despite having a gaggle of B&I Lions and Irish internationals in the squad.

1 like

Comment

True that head to head I wouldn't be happy with Billy, DOS and Wycherly/SOC up against Toner, Fardy and Moloney. However we won't be playing Leinster over the next 2 months. We'll be playing Dragons (H), Kings (A), Cheetahs (A), Ospreys (H), Cardiff (A) and then be integrating Kleyn and Beirne back into the squad.

I think that Billy, DOS Wycherley and SOC can win us enough ball in that run of games and if we were to pick up an injury to two of the above 4 I think that Aherne is worth investing in (and I assume that the professional decision makers agree with me because they put him i the academy 2 years ago directly out of school and they took him to the u20 WC when he was u19 and had spent most of the season out with an injury, i.e. a a fair few professional talent spotters are seeing something very good in him - however we are not allowed to trust their professional judgement unless we have Cowboy's advance written approval of which professionals are certified by him as being trust worthy judges of talent and capacity).

The point of my comparison to Leinster is that they are even thinner in terms of contracted players (17 gone to WC, Leavy out for the season, McGrath to Ulster and SOB to LI were 2 departures announced late in the planning cycle) and Leo has not gone cap in hand Landsdowne Rd looking to bring in cover. Also in terms of balance I'd take a Botha, JOD, TOD with Coombes/Cloete on the bench ahead of Josh Murphy, Deegan, Penney with Dorris/Connors on the bench so overall the 2 back 5s of the pack are at roughly similar strength (maybe Leinster ahead by 5% due to Fardy being an absolute beast of a man who should by rights be in the Wallabies squad for Japan).

You made the comparison and point out that Leo hasn’t gone cap in hand to the IRFU. It’s quite possible that if it was Toner on the plane to Japan, and not Kleyn, that he would have.

You keep trying to make this about the “back five” of the scrum but this lad has been signed as cover for our locks, where we’re a bit light. He’s not going to be blocking JOD or Coombes, who are likely to be competing with one another, and potentially Fineen, for the 6/8 shirt alongside Botha.

Comment

If you can't take it then don't give it sunshine. The world is full of people with different opinions than you. Ignore them if you want to or discuss them on their merits.

When you imply they are beneath you then expect people to take the piss.

On the merits of your original question above if a consultant doctor told me I needed operation A to solve the issue and after I'd paid for operation A he/she then told me what I actually needed was operation B I'd certainly be asking him/her questions. It doesn't mean I'd be any the wiser about which procedure was actually better but I wouldn't take a piece of paper on the wall as a reason to accept being ridden sideways without lube while I smiled about it and thanked them for their superior training.

If nobody asks the questions then nobody gets held to account (if my boss doesn't l ask the question why I'm spending so much fuppin time on Munsterfans then he'll never get an answer to it)

JVG was forwards coach to what was without a doubt the most powderpuff (beaten in a WC by Japan ffs) and unsuccessful Springboks (47% win rate under Coatzee) side of all time. Fla (who seems to have sorted out our scrum issues before Rassie or JVG arrived) decided not to renew his contract (perhaps for his own personal reasons but it leaves question marks).

There is no sign at all from the last 18 months that we have anything that could be remotely described as a "style of play" (work in progress or otherwise, Munster-way or otherwise).

With all of that when the coaching team look for the sticking plaster rather then I get worried and nobody will convince me that a 2 month signing is not a sticking plaster (to be put beside the Alby shaped one that we already have along with the 3 other senior contracted scrum halves - Cronin, Casey and McCarthy; each of whom was signed by Van Grann so not like the problem of inheriting Hart/Williams Sherry, Keatley, DOC2 and having to accept them as a sunk cost to be managed out like last year.). Van Grann also signed BJ on to a 2 year contract and then never played him and promoted Nash from the academy a year early and hasn't played him (either in last years Pro14 or this years Celtic Cup).

Read the various articles and interviews published over the past few years with Cian Bohane, David Johnston and Cathal Sheridan about how they felt within the system (mostly before JVG time to be fair) and you'll get an insight about how fringe players feel. There is not a single doubt in my mind that BJ and Steven Fitz and others felt the some version of the same thoughts and it is more likely than not that Coombes, Daly, Nash, SOC et al will start to feel the same if things don't change regarding how the set-up treats the wider squad.

To my mind that means having a cohesive and clear plan about how we want to play that the squad understands and buys into on that front the buck stops and ends with JVG as head coach. It requires the full squad being coached to have the skills needed to play that style and to swap in and out through the Pro14.

You claim that we don't have the same caliber of prospects coming through as Leinster, but neither did Connacht or Scarlets but with a coherent approach to coaching what they did have they both managed to lift a trophy over the current RWC cycle and we didn't despite having a gaggle of B&I Lions and Irish internationals in the squad.

I genuinely cannot see the correlation you are making between me saying I am not experienced enough to tell a consultant doctor what to do, nor am I experienced enough to have a pop at Johann about not blooding players but if the point is there and I can't see it then that's on me. I know everybody hates post dissections about he said she said so the only thing I can do is extend my hand and say if I've missed me being hypocritical I apologise. I'd rather discuss the topic than rip into anyone frankly

Beyond that, I will have to reserve judgement for another while and wait to see what happens with the kids here, with Holloway and finally with Johann and the new coaches. I'm mostly sceptical about what's being presented to the coaches due to what's gone before

On the top man, you can frame him any way you want after the fact.

A presence ​​​two good coaches walked away from, or ruthless enough to show them the door.

A guy who gave a few young players a chance and they never showed enough, or a guy blocking young players from getting in the side

Comment

You made the comparison and point out that Leo hasn’t gone cap in hand to the IRFU. It’s quite possible that if it was Toner on the plane to Japan, and not Kleyn, that he would have.

You keep trying to make this about the “back five” of the scrum but this lad has been signed as cover for our locks, where we’re a bit light. He’s not going to be blocking JOD or Coombes, who are likely to be competing with one another, and potentially Fineen, for the 6/8 shirt alongside Botha.

Ah hear, lets deal in facts please. Its not be who called him backrow cover. That would be the announcement from Munster Rugby

"The 26-year-old will provide cover at lock, and across the back row, with Jean Kleyn, Tadhg Beirne, Peter O’Mahony and CJ Stander included in Ireland’s World Cup squad."

I don't know the man from Adam and I don't watch any Super Rugby. He could be a dud or another Scott Fardy for all I know.

With respect to Toner going then that would have left Leo with 2 senior locks (Fardy and Maloney) so that would be more justifiable to me than our situation with 4. I'm even willing to discount DOS completely because he hasn't seem to have delivered here and didn't do so at Wochester either and JVG can claim he is an inherited signing. But Billy, Finneen and SOC are either proven quality or JVG signed.

Finally JVG was giving the signal of WC cover signings since the first week of preseason (can't be bothered to search for the link). Leo has not mentioned it and didn't do so either when Leavy got crocked or SOB signed for London Irish or when Jack McGrath signed for Ulster. So I think my point about different approaches stands.

Comment

Ah hear, lets deal in facts please. Its not be who called him backrow cover. That would be the announcement from Munster Rugby

"The 26-year-old will provide cover at lock, and across the back row, with Jean Kleyn, Tadhg Beirne, Peter O’Mahony and CJ Stander included in Ireland’s World Cup squad."

I don't know the man from Adam and I don't watch any Super Rugby. He could be a dud or another Scott Fardy for all I know.

With respect to Toner going then that would have left Leo with 2 senior locks (Fardy and Maloney) so that would be more justifiable to me than our situation with 4. I'm even willing to discount DOS completely because he hasn't seem to have delivered here and didn't do so at Wochester either and JVG can claim he is an inherited signing. But Billy, Finneen and SOC are either proven quality or JVG signed.

Finally JVG was giving the signal of WC cover signings since the first week of preseason (can't be bothered to search for the link). Leo has not mentioned it and didn't do so either when Leavy got crocked or SOB signed for London Irish or when Jack McGrath signed for Ulster. So I think my point about different approaches stands.

Fardy and Toner have 100 tests between them. 260 Leinster games between them
​​​​​​
ross Moloney was motm in a European Cup game against bath, he's 80 games for Leinster

SoC has 9 games.for Munster
fineen has 22 games under his belt
Billy Holland is a Munster stalwart and worth his weight in the squad. He's been invaluable down the years

Comment

I genuinely cannot see the correlation you are making between me saying I am not experienced enough to tell a consultant doctor what to do, nor am I experienced enough to have a pop at Johann about not blooding players but if the point is there and I can't see it then that's on me. I know everybody hates post dissections about he said she said so the only thing I can do is extend my hand and say if I've missed me being hypocritical I apologise. I'd rather discuss the topic than rip into anyone frankly

Beyond that, I will have to reserve judgement for another while and wait to see what happens with the kids here, with Holloway and finally with Johann and the new coaches. I'm mostly sceptical about what's being presented to the coaches due to what's gone before

On the top man, you can frame him any way you want after the fact.

A presence ​​​two good coaches walked away from, or ruthless enough to show them the door.

A guy who gave a few young players a chance and they never showed enough, or a guy blocking young players from getting in the side

Mods: has the multiquote function disappeared on the new forum? I don't mean to spam by replying separately to Munsterboy and Cowboy

Cowboy: Apology accepted!

With regard to reserving judgement and framing after the fact, therein lies the problem. If Coombes doesn't become an international will it be because he wasn't up to standard or will it be because he wasn't given the chance? Reasonable arguments can be made for both after the fact (obviously hopefully it never becomes a fact and Coombes is part of the RWC2023 winning side).

Given that this will always be the case we have to make some judgement up front.

In my world view nothing is fixed. All possibilities are open. Hodnett is not certain to make it and SOC is not certain not too. They both can or they both might not, though Hodnetts performance levels at the same age are higher. I believe 100% in a growth mindset and in the possibility of change and improvement. None of that has anything to do with rugby but I apply it to rugby. I hate hearing anyone say some 19/20 year old "isn't up to it"; "mol na hÓige agus thodaigh siad". Any coaches first job is to get the absolute best out of what he has. That is more true for me with Munster than with other teams because we have a limited player base and a limited pile of cash. If we are to have sustained success we need to have player pathways and player development.

On your points about Butler etc not making it in Top 4 sides elsewhere that is fair enough, but the other side of that coin is would we have fallen below Top 4 level if we had Butler/Dougall instead of Botha/Cloete and Betts instead of Parker. I'm not convinced that we would. None of Botha, Cloete, Taute, Haley or Parker are the reason we got to the semi-finals in the last two years. I accept fully that with the alternative players I mentioned we wouldn't be lifting the HEC either but also maybe if we weren't signing so many solid level imports and kept solid level home grown players we might have the money to sign 1 or 2 higher quality players in the positions we are lacking (like Leinster have done with Fardy)

Comment

Given that his omission from the Ireland squad came as a huge surprise to pretty much everyone, I can't imagine that Leo Cullen was planning on having Toner available during the RWC.

Van Graan said weeks ago that any short term signings would depend on who got taken to Japan. It's quite likely that if Kleyn or Beirne didn't make the squad we would not have signed any cover and the queue would have been exactly the same for the younger players.

I agree 100% with Cowboy when he says that people should wait and actually see who's picked before going off on one.

1 like

Comment

Van Graan said weeks ago that any short term signings would depend on who got taken to Japan. It's quite likely that if Kleyn or Beirne didn't make the squad we would not have signed any cover and the queue would have been exactly the same for the younger players.

I agree 100% with Cowboy when he says that people should wait and actually see who's picked before going off on one.

No the queue as u call it would be totally different ,they would be behind a Munster player not possibly behind a short term signing ,also disagree that questioning the signing is going off on one .
it's an open forum for fans to give opinions and the discussion re players available etc is surely informative .

Still there's a light I hold before me
You're the measure of my dreams
The measure of my dreams.

Comment

No the queue as u call it would be totally different ,they would be behind a Munster player not possibly behind a short term signing ,also disagree that questioning the signing is going off on one .
it's an open forum for fans to give opinions and the discussion re players available etc is surely informative .

I'm leaning towards Cowboy's wait and see. The lads we're discussing have a big pre-season in front of them - target gains and all the rest.

The coaches may just have decided that with two senior locks out and youth to bring through, that they needed another experienced head around.

Like, if Holland got injured, we'd be looking at a squad where no one had ever run a line out at first team level.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

Comment

If Rowntree can't invoke a bit of **** into any young player here it's a big question mark for me.

Harder than a coffin nail

True. But last year they were being coached by a guy who was the best hooker in the world in his prime, a Lion, a European Cup winner, a Grand Slam winner....

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

"I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

We process personal data about users of our site, through the use of cookies and other technologies, to deliver our services, personalize advertising, and to analyze site activity. We may share certain information about our users with our advertising and analytics partners. For additional details, refer to our Privacy Policy.

By clicking "I AGREE" below, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our personal data processing and cookie practices as described therein. You also acknowledge that this forum may be hosted outside your country and you consent to the collection, storage, and processing of your data in the country where this forum is hosted.