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As I make presentations at various conferences regarding our battery pack, or Energy Storage System (ESS), I’m often asked the question ”Isn’t the battery pack toxic” and whether or not it can be disposed of safely. To reach a wider audience, I thought it best to address these questions in our blog.

Energy Storage System

First, it’s necessary to understand the contents of our ESS. The cells in our battery are composed mainly of lithium metal oxides. They are manufactured in Japan, a country with very strict environmental laws. Emissions and effluents are strictly controlled and monitored. The cells meet the requirements set forth by the Directive on the Restriction of the Use of Certain Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment 2002/95/EC (commonly referred to as the Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive or RoHS). In other words, they do not contain any of the following:

Lead

Mercury

Cadmium

Hexavalent chromium (chromium xxx or Cr6+)

Polybrominated biphenyls (PBB)

Polybrominated diphenyl ether (PBDE)

Above and beyond RoHS, our lithium ion cells contain no heavy metals, nor any toxic materials. In fact, our cells and ESS, by law, could be disposed of by putting them in a landfill. However, we have no intention of landfilling our ESS.

There are some exciting potential uses for the ESS in its afterlife. While our ESS is designed to maximize performance and life in our roadster, at some unfortunate point, the ESS will come to the end of its useful life in the application :(. However, it might be possible to use the ESS in other applications. For example, the ESS could be used as a power source for off-grid backup or load leveling. The battery requirements for such an application are not as demanding as a high performance vehicle battery. This being said, eventually the batteries will no longer hold a significant charge and will need to be disposed of.

minimize energy consumption utilized during the transportation and recycling process;

To understand how we attain these goals, you first need to understand a few basics about our ESS construction. The ESS is comprised of 11 modules. These 4.8kWh modules are made up of plastics, aluminum, copper, some electronics and lots of other confidential stuff to improve safety and performance. Each of the roughly 35kg modules is inserted into an aluminum enclosure as shown above.

The enclosure also contains our 12V power supply, a battery system management board and other safety stuff. Aside from the cells, most components in our ESS are designed to last the life of the car. If an individual ESS reaches its end of life, we plan to replace the modules, not the whole ESS. To retrieve the used modules from the market, Tesla will set up an exchange program in which customers receive a credit when they return their modules.

The recycling process follows the below steps:

The ESS is discharged for safety reasons

The Propylene glycol in the cooling tubes is drained and recycled locally

The electronics are removed and tested to determine if they can be reused

The wires and some other metals are removed and recycled locally

The modules are stored until the quantity is large enough to justify a stop on the “milk run” by the KBI truck (this semi truck makes regular runs from their facility in Los Angeles to their recycling facility in Trail, British Columbia, Canada).

Upon arrival at Toxco’s facility in Trail, the excitement begins (if you’re into hardcore destruction). The modules are frozen in liquid nitrogen to prevent further reactions of the lithium components.

The modules are put into a shredder with mammoth teeth and broken into chunks less than 2” long (tiny sparks appear, but otherwise it’s surprisingly not that exciting).

The small chunks are fed into the hammer mill (don’t you love these names?) as pictured below to pulverize the remaining chunks into even smaller pieces.

Hammer mill

Screens then separate the materials into three different products:

fluff

copper cobalt

slurry

The fluff, pictured above, is trucked back to the U.S. border and properly disposed. This mostly contains plastic.

The copper cobalt product is shown on left. The cobalt filter cake is shown on the right.

The copper cobalt product is sold for recovery of metals such as cobalt, aluminum, nickel, and copper. The slurry is processed into a cobalt filter cake. This cake is then reused in appliance coatings.

Soda ash is added to resulting process solution and precipitates out as lithium carbonate; liquid is bled off after lithium salt recovery, and is sent off as non hazardous effluent for proper disposal.

As you can see, the recycling process is mainly a mechanical and chemical one. It does not involve any smelters; so emissions are kept to a minimum.

The result from this process is that we are able to recycle about 60% of the ESS materials and reuse a further 10% (by weight). We currently plan to landfill only the benign fluff, which comprises about 25% of the ESS, but we expect to nearly eliminate this in the future when our volumes get higher and we can justify the effort required to separate and reuse the plastic.

Keep in mind that we have only done a few trial runs with our modules. We’re hoping that we won’t need to recycle our modules for many years to come. However, we believe it is important, before we start shipping cars, to understand and plan for the eventual disposal of these vehicles.

Reduce, reuse, recycle: most of this article focuses on the "recycle" phase. Will more information be made available about the "re-use" phase. For instance, who will service the ESS when it is used for off-grid backup or load leveling? Would the Tesla Energy Group handle this part of the ESS' lifecycle?

its great seeing Tesla as environment friendly car, and thanks for one more myth got busted :)

Jeff Tate

3:29pm | Mars 11, 2008

This is good stuff, but what is the cost to process all of this vs. the actual value of the reclaim material. If the financial equation doesn't work who's going to do it. additionally you pointed out that the old ESS sits around until a critical mass is reached, what is being done to ensure that people will return these ESS to Tesla?

James Anderson Merritt

3:40pm | Mars 11, 2008

Thanks for giving us some excellent detail about the battery recycling program.

If I read the above correctly, individual power modules within the ESS weigh 77 lbs each, and each "contains" roughly 19 miles of autonomy, when fully charged (4.8 kWh x 0.8 to account for losses, divided by 0.2 kWh per mile).

Also, if I read correctly, the idea isn't ever to replace ESSs entirely, but merely to swap out bad modules for good, and to give the ESS owner a credit for expired modules.

In that case, it seems to me that we are most of the way toward having the key pieces in place that would enable a module-swapping method for "fast charge" on long trips. The big things missing would seem to be a way to access and swap individual modules without having to discharge the whole ESS, a method for quickly and reliably estimating the condition and remaining life of a module, and simple, straightforward access to the modules without having to remove the entire ESS. If I were Tesla, I would certainly be looking for a way to achieve these goals in time for Whitestar, or perhaps a future edition of the Roadster. Even if there is never a "swapping fast charge" service for WhiteStar or latter-day Roadsters, I still think that covering these design bases may provide for easier and cheaper servicing, not to mention upgrading of the WhiteStar ESS to use modules that are based on new and better energy storage approaches. That is to say, they will be worthwhile for their own sakes, and if they also enable a "swapping fast charge" option, then so much the better.

From the earlier blog:
"Now I’d like to address two repeated arguments against electric vehicles — battery disposal and power plant emissions. The answer to the first is short and simple, the second requires a bit of math:
Batteries that are not toxic to the environment!
I wouldn’t recommend them as a dessert topping, but the Tesla Motors Lithium-Ion cells are not classified as hazardous and are landfill safe. However, dumping them in the trash would be throwing money away, since the battery pack can be sold to recycling companies (unsubsidized) at the end of its greater than 100,000-mile design life. Moreover, the battery isn’t dead at that point, it just has less range."

Joseph

4:08pm | Mars 11, 2008

The battery disposal is an interesintg process.

I hope it becomes more efficient in the years to come. After that, maybe we'll have a miracle battery that'll recycle itself. just kidding

Hunter

5:28pm | Mars 11, 2008

Thanks for another informative post. It's good to know you're planning ahead with respect to the battery. Has the rest of the vehicle gotten this same attention to detail? Is the car as a whole RoHS compliant? How much of it is recyclable? Since it's just about all carbon fiber, aluminum, and plastics I'd guess that percentage is very high, but I'd love to see more of the real data. Follow up blog maybe? Also, a breakdown of the resources that go into roadster production would be extremely cool.

Mark, I heard recently about a PG&E project that was buying decommissioned Prius battery packs and using them for peak shaving. So maybe they can get the utility to lease them? Or just buy them with an agreed upon recycling strategy at the end?

Brandon

6:44pm | Mars 11, 2008

What is the estimated cost of replacing the ESS (in whole or in parts) at 100,000 miles to restore range to the factory delivery amount? Are there plans to allow first generation roadster owners to replace the ESS with higher power density versions (for more range) when they become available?

J. A. Merritt: That sounds like a lot of engineering work to invest in a problem that is likely to be eroded by battery technology improvements within a few years.

TEG

7:55pm | Mars 11, 2008

Hey Kurt - are you a Paly grad from the '80s? I think I remember you!

Kevin Harney

6:32am | Mars 12, 2008

Great to hear that the ESS is made up of many modules so that the size can be increased to whatever level that is needed for the Whitestar easily.

Howie

9:05am | Mars 12, 2008

Tesla Motors chose a battery configuraton that works and doesn't pollute. Let's see how well this car maker's ESS does over many months and thousand of miles. Meanwhile, with gasoline prices soaring, Tesla Roadster P1 already on the road and more P's soon following, battery advances will accelerate and all-electric car dealers will proliferate. Then we'll see how LOW the price of a barrel of oil will be.

Will future ESS designs allow for easy (easier?) module swapping? Say through the side of the ESS once it is lowered out of the vehicle?

However, module swapping should remain an inappropriate method of fast recharging; any module which is easy enough to swap straight out of the car in a station forecourt is also easy enough to steal from an unattended vehicle. Not good.

We're huge fans of the Tesla at my company in Redwood City - we've had several folks uploading their cell phone pics seeing the cars around town. Being this transparent is definitely the right tactic for bringing skeptics on board; I think you all are doing tremendous work. Check out our Tesla page if you have a few minutes, we pull together forum conversations, wiki articles, pictures, etc. from across the site: http://greenhome.huddler.com/products/tesla-08-roadster-coupe

A question: you write "Soda ash is added to resulting process solution and precipitates out as lithium carbonate liquid is bled off after lithium salt recovery, and is sent off as non hazardous effluent for proper disposal." Does this mean that the lithium is not recovered? The sentence is slightly ambiguous. Naysayers like to point out that lithium production might become limiting for EVs someday, and so lithium recovery seems like a useful thing to be able to tout. Is it not economic to recover the lithium for making new Li batteries as is done for lead in PbA batteries?

James Anderson Merritt

12:14pm | Mars 12, 2008

# Tim Keating wrote on March 11th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

# J. A. Merritt: That sounds like a lot of engineering work to invest in a problem that is likely to be eroded
# by battery technology improvements within a few years.

Funny, my comment was that most of the engineering work appears to have been done already, and that the few remaining steps would have much more value than simply enabling "swapping fast charge" (the need for which, I have myself argued in previous blog threads, would diminish with improvements in battery technology). On the other hand, suppose that new modules became available -- based on some future LiIon improvement (nanowires, anyone) or even something like eestor's barium titanate approach. Wouldn't you prefer to upgrade to them in minutes, by yourself at home, or on a routine trip to the "filling station," rather than an hour or more in the service bay, paying mechanics' rates for labor? If said upgrade also brought you a fresh charge in the bargain, who would complain, and who would not be thankful for the additional engineering invested in the system's design?

david_42

1:42pm | Mars 12, 2008

“Soda ash is added to resulting process solution and precipitates out as lithium carbonate liquid is bled off after lithium salt recovery, and is sent off as non hazardous effluent for proper disposal.”

I think it's just missing a semi-colon: ... carbonate; liquid ...

ed: Yes, we had a missing semi-colon which has since been added.

Chris

7:01pm | Mars 12, 2008

"J. A. Merritt: That sounds like a lot of engineering work to invest in a problem that is likely to be eroded by battery technology improvements within a few years. "

Even so, it is very wise to have an exit strategy in place before it's even an issue, so you're not hit smack in the face with these things and wondering what to do.

Our politicians would do well to learn from a small electric-car startup...

Ronald

12:35am | Mars 13, 2008

Tesla Team-

Can you guys, please write a blog/article on aerodynamics.

I am interest in knowing more about the coeficcient drag of the car. and how aerodynamics will influence future models.

Thank you

good idea -ed.

Christian

3:04am | Mars 13, 2008

Everybody whining about the gas prices. Fact is you'll still drive Gas when the price is doubled or more (the prove are the prices here in europe ;)) The enviroment friendly cars today like Tesla/Prius and co (don't hit me for mention them together ^^) are still not there to 'save' money on the gas price. Especialy the prius for example so much more expensive than another car in that range that you'll never save a buck on the gas savings...

Even as the Tesla Roadster is doing good with the price as a sportscar, it's in a price range where the buyer doesn't care about gas priceses. That might change with the withestar and a worldwide distribution but it's still a very long way to go till we're there. So it will be years till you'll save a buck on gas prices and you can bet that then electricity will go up the roof hehe

Kevin Harney

6:57am | Mars 13, 2008

So according to these numbers each module weighs an average of 81 lbs and will propel 240 lbs for 220 miles. Therefore, to propel a roughly 5200 lbs sedan you would need 22 modules or 2 Roadster batteries. Is this correct or have I gotten myself into circular math ? I realize that most sedans do not weigh 5200 lbs but I have taken approx weight of the car(3900) - engine and not needed parts (500)+ weight of batteries (1800)= 5200.

Max

2:39pm | Mars 13, 2008

Thanks for yet another great mythbuster's blog!

I'm really happy to see that Tesla is environmentally conscious and has already thought about the next steps required to "close the loop" so to speak.
I think there will be a day in the near future that Tesla drivers will be looked up upon for their environmental consciousness as well as people THAT ACTUALLY ENJOY DRIVING fast and fun cars. Cars like Ferrari's might get a negative stigma for being gas guzzlers.

Thanks for being "different".

-Max

Max

2:44pm | Mars 13, 2008

Could you please write a blog about the aerodynamics of the car, and how you made sure that each car that wears the Tesla badge will be a fun car and not a "punishment car". I'm really hoping that EVERY Tesla will have "mid-engined" handling. I'm confident that with electric cars the traction and stability programs will be adequate to "protect the cars from their drivers".

Aurea Aharonian

5:04pm | Mars 13, 2008

Hello,

I am looking for a folding electric bicycle that would use one of your batteries. Do you have any suggestion?
Thanks,
A A

Dirk

6:32pm | Mars 13, 2008

And another thing, the cooling liquid mainly "propylene glycol" is non-toxic! FDA approved for food services use; but I wouldn't use it as desert topping either.

Max

7:00pm | Mars 13, 2008

Could you please expand on what Tesla has proposed to make Roadsters (and future models) more theft resistant. (nothing is really theft proof :( )
I really don't want people to steal the cars, or steal components. (other than stereos - that's unavoidable) I don't want people to steal battery packs, or electronics.
I'd rather not have an aftermarket company mess with Tesla's wiring, trying to install a 3rd party alarm.
I'm sure Ze'ev Drori's experience with alarms will help.

Similarly, I'd be interested in what Tesla has done to keep car insurance rates low for Tesla cars. (I heard hybrids are very expensive to insure. i.e. Toyota Prius.)

Brian H

12:26am | Mars 14, 2008

Christian;
The economics of the EU and US are different for driving. Distances in the US are much greater, and, partly as a consequence, public transit is far less available. When Europeans come to the US or Canada they are staggered by the sheer vastness and unoccupied land; it just doesn't exist there.

So driving here is far more necessary, and more frequent, and for much longer distances. Probably individual expenditures on fuel for parallel lifestyles is about the same.

There are other consequences; for short distances, tiny cars are OK. For longer ones, they are not so much OK. Cars like the GEM with a top range of 40 miles and speed of 25 mph are virtually unusable here.

Jeremy

2:21am | Mars 14, 2008

That last line just blew me away.

"However, we believe it is important, before we start shipping cars, to understand and plan for the eventual disposal of these vehicles."

For some reason I just can't imagine that any previous car company, at least in the US, has ever said or even thought that. Though a heart wrenching idea, the "eventual disposal of these vehicles" is obviously necessary. This is true of any BMW, Porsche, etc. but I really don't think they stopped to consider, especially before selling the first car, "what are we going to do with these things when they're no longer usable?" It probably was automatically ignored as "somebody else's problem."

Thank you, you restore my faith in humanity and my hope for the future. Even more so because I know our country's laws don't require you to be so thoughtful.

-Jeremy

James Anderson Merritt

12:38pm | Mars 14, 2008

So is the company still on track to deliver the next production unit by March 17th, as I believe I read sometime back? Is anyone feeling a growing excitation in the air, something like the static field of a Tesla coil before the spark?

would it be practical or even usefull to have 2 battery packs. charge them off the front wheels. chargeing one pack and use the other for propulsion then alternateing to the opposite pack when your computer detected a low voltage condition. would this extend your range or be detrimental. I think also that a small suv style would be a higly publicly appreciated project such as something similar to a suzuki vitara looking forward to seeing and possibly owning an electric suv with some spunk to it. Wish you much sucess in make fossil fuel usage extinct

Eric

3:21pm | Mars 14, 2008

# Earl Killian wrote on March 12th, 2008 at 10:49 am

I have the same question as Earl, is the lithium simply disposed of, or recycled into new batteries? As he mentioned, lithium supply and its location is one of concern to some people, and some suggest it will become as bad as our current oil addiction, just in a different geographic location.

An answer to this question would be great!

JP

7:31pm | Mars 14, 2008

Regarding Lithium,,,, Amazing how everyone is focusing on how to make that element dance at the battery level. With some research you can find many lithium mineral sites. Yes, it could be the modern version of oil. One company, Sociedad Quimica y Minera (ADR) (SQM), seems to be a major source in the world for mining lithium. I don't own stock in them - YET. At least it is recycleable!!!
Prediction: Exxon -Mobil will be posting record profits quarter 1' 08, (followed by Q2, 08...).

CM

10:29pm | Mars 14, 2008

Max was asking about insurance rates, and as a Prius driver I can tell him that insurance for hybrids tend to be less than other similarly priced cars - hybrid drivers tend to be more responsible, thus have fewer insurance claims, thus lower insurance rates for most hybrid models. Unfortunately, insurance for ultra-high performance sports cars - even electric ones - tend to be much higher, due to more "showing off" and testosterone fueled bad driving leading to more insurance claims. Tesla Motors has worked to get a good safety rating, which helps lower insurance rates, and also worked to get 0-60 MPH in 4 seconds, which dramatically increases insurance rates. Oh, well, if you want to have that kind of fun, you've got to pay the price!

Brian H

2:20am | Mars 15, 2008

OK, guyz, wassup with this? According to Toshiba, it already has a nanowire battery, being marketed as of December 11 '07 (a month or 3 ago). Super Charge Battery. The specs are fabulous. Here's a wee sample:

recharge to 90% of full capacity in only five minutes.

can be continuously used for more than 10 years with a once-a-day recharge-discharge cycle

The only weakness I can discern is that it has only moderate energy density, though its power density is very high.

Brian H

2:27am | Mars 15, 2008

Correction:
the Toshiba battery goes to market this month (March '08). The early '05 specs showed very high energy density, but the actual released product is lower than LiIon batteries. This might impose an excessive weight penalty, I don't have the data to judge.

nubo

7:20pm | Mars 15, 2008

I agree, we're certainly not at the point where gasoline prices are having any significant impact on driving habits; a little bit on buying habits but not much. So yes, prices might double and we'd still have traffic jams in the morning. And yes, these first electric cars or even Prius might not recoup their added cost in terms of fuel expense. But there are other benefits. Environmental benefits, obviously. But if you're looking for direct personal gain, ask someone who lived through the70's gasoline shortages. When it happens again, the wisdom of owning an electric car is going to be quite obvious. What is the value then? The inescapable truth is that petrol is not just getting more expensive -- eventually it will be running out.

leoboston

8:25am | Mars 16, 2008

It's ashamed that this car was designed to make sure the rich people don't pollute the environment. If this company was so worried about helping the planet, they would find a way to produce a car with a reasonable price so the masses could afford and we could substitute millions of cars off the road as opposed to dozens. $ 98K? really? I own a car that is worth $9K, think about it and good luck!

Mike Craven

11:54am | Mars 16, 2008

leoboston,

That's a great idea! Why don't YOU "find a way to produce a car at a reasonable price". Then you too could be a rich person ;-)

Mark W.

1:52pm | Mars 16, 2008

leoboston:

Tesla is making cars that they can make money on. If it was so easy to make cheep electrics, companies like GM and Toyota would be making them. Tesla doesn't have the millions to produce a mass market car, and even if they did, the majors could put them out of business before they made a profit. By producing a niche car, they have a much better chance of surviving. They also prove a concept which other car makers could run with. This car could easily last 20 - 40 years with a few battery swaps. You can't say that about your $9K car.

I was wondering if I can ask a few questions about the drivetrain?
what are the gear ratios? i was guessing that hi is 2 to 1 and that lo is about 5 to 1. I would also like to know the design type? i am guessing that it is not a spur gear style but planatary and wondered if they are clutch or band operated?

a few other questions as long as i'm at it.
are there any dates projected for the dealer opening in southern california?
shipping dates for the production run of roadsters or the whitestar?
Are there any renderings for the whitestar?
I want the roadster but budget limits me to much less. in fact 50k is almost 4 times my highest expenditure for any car yet.

Thank you for any reply you can make.

Ed

Joseph

7:29pm | Mars 16, 2008

Didn't Tesla Motors says that tomorrow, on March 17, they'd begin series production of the Roadster?

Joseph

7:30pm | Mars 16, 2008

Tomorrow, March 17, the Tesla Roadster is supposed to have begun series production.

I guess we'll see.

CM

9:49pm | Mars 16, 2008

Brian H: I think you may have confused different "nanotech" batteries. The Toshiba "Super Charge" use nano-sized particles to make the electrodes, that allows for very high power, fast charging, and long life. Batteries from A123 and Altairnano also use nano-sized particles,and have similar characteristics. None of these use silicon nano wires.

The "silicon nano wire" battery now under development is several years away from commercial release, but promises a dramatic increase in energy density as well as high power and fast charging. If good manufacturing techniques can be developed, it might also lead to cheaper batteries as well!

potential buyer

10:48pm | Mars 16, 2008

are there cup holders in the front seats?

TEG

11:18pm | Mars 16, 2008

In case Tesla doesn't respond, I will try to answer Ed's questions.

# Ed wrote on March 16th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
## what are the gear ratios?

Look here:http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/tech_specs.php
Type: 2 speed electrically actuated manual transmission with final drive; constant mesh gears and inertia lock key type synchromesh
Gear Ratio Overall
First 4.20:1 14.3:1
Second 2.17:1 7.4:1
Final Drive 3.41:1
Note, they are switching to a 1 speed gearbox as soon as they get it worked out.

## a few other questions as long as i’m at it.
## are there any dates projected for the dealer opening in southern california?

Very soon (perhaps within a month)

## shipping dates for the production run of roadsters or the whitestar?

Roadsters are supposed to start production this week.
Whitestar is probably 1-2 years away...

## Are there any renderings for the whitestar?

I bet they give us a glimpse of the planned design within 6 months.

Fshhead

2:45am | Mars 17, 2008

Well here we are March17th, is today the big day???? PLEASE PLEASE say YES!!!!!!!!

Kevin Harney

7:28am | Mars 17, 2008

You want a great idea for future blogs? Hunter said this in another blog and I totally agree with it ...

You know what? The above might make a great blog topic. I’d love to see a TCO comparison with an ICE car. Kind of goes along with that lifecycle analysis I’ve mentioned once or twice.

Include acquisition costs, insurance, maintenance costs and fuel costs as well as replacing a motor (or battery) at 100K miles or whatever is appropriate etc....

Kevin Harney

7:42am | Mars 17, 2008

TEG and Ed,

I thought that TM has said that they will make the Whitestar announcement in the 2nd Q of 2008 ?!?!?!?!? Which starts in a couple weeks :) !!!

Great blog! You didn't make it clear, but I expect that there is no charge to the customer for recycling, as the recycled material should pay for it. I too am interested in a blog on aerodynamics, in particular how effective is that belly pan? I understand that Tesla has entered a Roadster in the Ansari AutoXPrize. Could you tell us if you are entering a Whitestar too?

Brian H: The Toshiba site does not mention silicon nano-wire technology, however it looks like similar technology to Altiarnano and A123, that is lower energy but high power and long cycle life, better suited for a hybrid than an all-electric car. I am sure that Tesla Motors is keenly aware of the benifits of marketing to Europe, and will market there as soon as they can. My guess is 1 - 2 years.

Kevin Harney: Vehicle mass and range are not a direct relationship. A larger vehicle will have more air resistance and rolling resistance, and so will require more power, but moving heavier mass with electric power is a neglible penalty because much of the accelerating energy can be reclaimed when decelerating. Probably closer to 50% larger battery pack required for same range.

Kevin Harney

7:56am | Mars 18, 2008

WOW!!! I just amazed myself with some calculations and I thought I would share them...

I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee. That averages 16 MPG. So let look at fuel costs for a typical year of 12,000 miles.

Jeep. 12,000 miles / 16MPG * $3.25/gal= $2437 annually. All of these number are VERY real here where I am on the east coast.

Roadster. 12,000 miles / 200 miles per charge = 60 Fill ups / year. Each Fill up is 52.8 kWh * $0.059/kWh = $3.11/ fillup or $186 annually. All of these number are also VERY real for here on the east coast.

Granted that is comparing a SUV to a sports car but still it is MUCH more amazing than I anticipated. And that is JUST fuel savings not to mention maintenance. OK now I am REALLY excited about getting the Whitestar :)

Kevin Harney

8:10am | Mars 18, 2008

TEG and Ed,

TM press release says we will have the introduction of the Whitestar in 2010.

Derek

8:42am | Mars 18, 2008

Nanowire Li Ion batteries...

I'm surprised this isn't a hotter topic. If Stanford's research in this is valid (claiming 10 times the energy density, longer life - more charge cycles, etc...) then this seems significant...no, I mean SIGNIFICANT. Essentially it means the Tesla Roadster with a range of 240+ miles could travel 2,400+ miles by simply changing out the batteries of the same shape and size. With that kind of range, most people can only drive about 1,500 miles in a day. Charging overnight at a motel and you'd never need to worry about fueling up when you weren't sleeping.

More so, this seems like it could be risky for Tesla since it means that much heavier cars (like SUV's) could sacrifice some of the range for weight. This could very quickly upset the balance of the industry. With GM working on the Volt, which is essentially an electric car with a gasoline electric generator used for the limited all-electric range of 40 miles, GM stands to quickly adapt and make the cheap-all-electric-vehicle accessible to the masses. It still won't be as fancy as the Tesla, but certainly more accessible. But if GM mixes the skateboard concept with the new nano-wire Li ion batteries, essentially anybody could have anything they wanted (well, still not performing like the Tesla).

I'd like to see a blog (or a response) on how Tesla is going to adapt to this as it hits the market. From the report from Stanford, it's apparently fairly easy to implement this new nano-wire design into current Li Ion battery production and is expecting this to be running by 2010 (which is a fairly short turn around). I understand that many batteries and/or Fuel Cells or Solar Cells have been promised for years, but the proof of this particular design seems like it will have a dramatic impact on the world around us and has apparently been proven by Stanford. (why does the media not cover this?!?!?)

Thanks for any answers...

Kevin Harney

9:02am | Mars 18, 2008

If I plug in the same numbers for a Toyota Prius and use the 2008 Federal MPG rating of 46 MPG I get an annual fuel cost of $848 compared to $188 for the Roadster !!!

Kevin Harney

9:55am | Mars 18, 2008

Derek,

You are correct this will be SIGNIFICANT - if - 1) they can actually produce it. 2) it can be produced at a low enough cost for mass marketing and 3) if they can manage to do this in the next couple years.

Derek

1:24pm | Mars 18, 2008

Thanks for replying Kevin. I think the answer to 1, 2 and 3 are yes. It would appear from the articles I've read that this is already in motion.

It would seem that this should be followed closely since it doesn't have the same problems other technologies need to answer. Fuel Cells, for example, not only have to deal with the cost to create, but also the creation of a new infrastructure (hydrogen economy) and the hydrogen economy needs to decide what mediums they'll provide to the reformers that the Fuel Cell's use (chicken/egg kinda thing). Solar technology has certainly been promising improvements for years (it's always just a few years away until the cost is cheap enough and the conversion is high enough...but that has repeatedly fallen short....although an article that came out on the same day as the one above concerning a company called Sunflake has suggested they've made a significant breakthrough. In any case, it's still short of running a car on it...in real time.

Is it possible that the Stanford research is "vapor-ware".... possibly, but considering they have proof and process and patent pending, it's something to watch really closely....especially if you are in the electric car business (or a consumer). If it is real, it will quickly change our world. Not only the vehicles, but the demand for more electricity. How quickly would that impact oil consumption? How quickly would it impact the electrical grid? I'm probably getting a little philosophical, but as eager as all of us are in wanting a Tesla on this thread, I'm sure we'd be happy to get any affordable electric vehicle with the kind of stats that this new battery could achieve.

I hope that Tesla can stay ahead of that wave of technology.

Kevin Harney

3:00pm | Mars 18, 2008

Derek,

Patent pending and a viable production for mass market appeal and cost are two totally different things !!!!!! HUGE difference. Also last I read they had the cathode side of the battery done but not the annonde - or visa versa. You can be rest assured that TM is following this technology VERY closely and will implement it if it fits the needs of their cars. There have been several LONG discussions on this topic in several of these blogs and the concenus seems to be GREAT once they can produce it and make it usable.

jason

7:03pm | Mars 19, 2008

just stumbled on the tesla car website and have been reading a little bit about it.

kevin harney posted the numbers i was looking for:

for me...

12,000 miles per year with 15mpg ( ave city and hwy on my suv) $3.75/gal (i have to use premium) = $3000 per year for fuel

12,000 miles per year with 60 charges. 52.8 kWh per charge $0.38 per kwh (where i live) = $1203.84

the savings arent compelling enough to make me want to get a tesla but the novelty of one 'might' tweak my interest. plus, a tesla wouldnt be a daily driver. it would be relagated, for me, as a weekend car around the town.

why i would get one:

- the 'cool' factor is presently high for this vehicle. great one time conversation piece.

why i wouldnt get one:
- the range isnt far enough for me to get to the places i like to go for weekend or long weekend jaunts.
- even 'if' could go to a hotel close enough on one charge...what are the logistics to get an extension cord to charge it for the trip back. i dont mind paying extra for convenience and plugging this thing in every night isnt a big deal. it is when i go somewhere where i NEED to charge it to get back...that sounds VERY inconvenient, frustrating and possibly at times...ridiculous.
- everyone i know who can afford one, wouldnt be buying it for 'environmental' reasons, it would be for the 'cool' factor and with these guys, this factor doesnt last long with them and most likely would go back to their v-12 italian jobs getting 9 miles to the gallon with $5k tune up for every 3,000 miles driven.
- the rear end looks like a supra's and the front end looks like a modified miata. sorry guys. the styling isnt there for me. my ego doesnt need to be stroked with head turns by onlookers but if i am going to drop $100k on a sports car/roadster, i want it to look nice to me. for this price, i would drop another $30k and get low mileage excellent condition modena.
- the cockpit looks like ikea designed it. i like the minimalist look but it shouldnt translate to spartan. for $100k, i want to be coddled in the drivers seat with amenities that will make feel that it was worthwhile to spend $100k on a car...any car regardless of the technology behind it.

these are my initial impressions of the tesla. i read that there are a lot of orders for this car and that the waiting time is incredible...so it must be popular at the present. only time will if it will be a long term success. i hope tesla will pan out and be part of the car world. it would be fun. consumers are picky and fickle. they will only tolerate long waiting periods if the product is worth the wait. ask any ferrari enthusiast who will wait 3-4 years for the fiorano at $275k.

Kevin Harney

8:31pm | Mars 19, 2008

Jason,

$0.38 / kWh is HUGE. Look again I bet it is $0.038. Even in the MOST expensive areas I believe it is les than 10 -15 cents per kWh. I did not check your math to see if it was a typo or not.

As for your other points they are very valid !!! But it sounds like you might be a man for the Whitestar. Whitestar is supposed to be a Luxury Sedan with all the ammenities not a very basic sportscar. Something comparable to say a BMW 535 size and luxury. For a price tag closer to $60K. That is a head turner and a deal with all of the benefits of an EV.

an IVT that can handle a lot of torque and is totally gear driven, no belts, no friction gears etc., years ago, got a lot of publicity in Popular Science, August 1992 page 30 which you can see at www.fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/FEV-IVTransmission.php
Invented by Paul Pires, it was Developed by Epilogics Inc., Los Gatos, Ca - in your area!
Greg Smith
Editor,
fuel-efficient-vehicles.org

jason

10:25am | Mars 20, 2008

hi kevin!

thanks for the response.

here in socal...electricity by edison has got to be the weirdest and most financially invasive pricing structure i have ever heard of.

socal edison is not a flat rate. it is a tiered rate method. which means that we are given a certain amount of kWh per month (baseline) at a semi decent rate of about 8 cents/kWh or so. then as you exceed this tier, which you always do because the baseline is set for about to account for a frig, a light bulb and a very small tv. when you get into the 100%+ usage tier, the rate/kWh jumps significantly to something like 20 or so cents. then as you get into the 200% tier, it is about 38 cents/kWh. socal edison just came out with a 300% tier now which i havent seen on my bill...yet. i cant even imagine what the rate/kWh is on this tier.

socal edison also changes the baseline with the season...thus changing the tier. my personal opinion on this is that socal edison borders on criminal activity. i dont know of any company that would remotely survive and have any customers with this form of business practice.

trying to read a socal edison bill is like trying to read a foreign language. i dont know about how the rest of the nation receives their electricity bills but edison fractions up their bills into a delivery charge and a usage charge. then there is a fractionation of the charges within each sub category. electricity is a total mess here.

al gore (mr green and nobel prize laureate) incredible 10x electrical usage over normal american households, i calculated would exceed $80k per year if he were to live with socal edison.

i will fully admit that i am a high electricity user. i like two fridges, multiple big tv's, a pool and lighting. i always slightly skirt into the 200% tier. i would be beyond the 300% tier if it were not for a medium large residential solar photovoltaic system to help offset my high electrical bill. thus i came up with the 38 cents because plugging in the car would definitely boost me into the stratospheric tier of handing over ones manhood every month...and i was being conservative.

the solar pv system has been a god send in the summer. it has cut my summer electricity bills by 2/3 and my winter bill by about 1/3 to 1/2.

Kevin Harney

1:30pm | Mars 20, 2008

Jason,

Wow dude that is messed up ..... time to move .... LOL

Darin Ladd

2:46pm | Mars 20, 2008

Jason--

Though it looks like you've left your one post and bolted (never to be seen or heard from again) . . .

Might I kindly remind you of the costs of maintenance--especially of a high-end sports car. Though I realize replacing the batteries at 100,000 miles is a significant disadvantage of an EV, remember how expensive maintenance on an internal combustion engine can be--certainly more than the cost of gasoline after the first 5 years or so. (Don't forget to include the $100 oil changes every 3 months, yearly checkups, etc.) Not to suggest that there will be no cost of ownership for an EV, but logic suggests they will be far less over the lifetime of the vehicle (again, excluding batteries--we still don't know how much it will cost net to swap them out for new ones, but you can expect some credit for the old ones to help defray this somewhat. . . )

More importantly, from a reliability perspective, please recall how unpredictable internal combustion engine failures can be. Drive to work in the morning and everything's okay; leave work in the evening and there's a pool of coolant everywhere and the vehicle won't start. If I may be so bold as to suggest it, I doubt that any Tesla driver will ever be in a similar situation--no matter how long he/she drives the vehicle (obviously; no engine coolant--only battery coolant). When coils start to go bad, you'll likely get plenty of warning (smell) before total system failure. Same thing with the other major parts (batteries, bearings, tires, etc.). Oh, and the same thing goes for charge--you don't just "run out" (like a gasoline engine); instead, as you lose charge you lose performance--allowing plenty of time for the prudent driver to start to look for a (nearly ubiquitous in this country) electrical outlet.

Now, as to your comment that I truly take issue with: you say you want to be "coddled" in a sports car. I would challenge you (or anyone, for that matter) to list one example of a sports car that is more comfortable to drive, or has more amenities, than your run-of-the-mill Dodge Caravan. That's right, I said "Dodge Caravan." Is it possible that when you ask for a comfortable sports car you begin to strain your already generous online readers' credulity?

I understand your concern over buying a technology that appears expensive and market untested. That's perfectly okay. My suggestion is to wait ten years and see what the actual reliability and ownership costs turn out to be (or twenty, for that matter). Let the company prove it deserves your business over that period of time.

Maybe you'll return to this blog site and check the postings in response to your comments at that time, too.

Steve Uhlir

3:44pm | Mars 20, 2008

Jason, et al,

In California, electric rates (for "Public Utilities" which includes Souther California Edison, Pacific Gas & Electric, and San Diego Edison as the three largest) are determined by the California Public Utility Commission which is a part of the state government. Of course the companies have a lot of influence but, no, they don't determine their rates.

And, to encourage electric cars (and also to encourage charging the cars at low-load times), the California PUC has mandated special rate structures for people who charge electric cars. See

for information about the rates for SCE. I don't have the URL for PG&E as they have recently moved their web page. I do know that their rate schedule is called "E9" and the off-peak cost is about $0.035 (yes, three and a half cents) per KWh. And, yes PG&E has a tiered rate structure much like SCE with a peak rate about about the $0.38 you mentioned in your first post. (I live in the PG&E service area so I know more about the specifics for PG&E than SCE... even if I can't find their web page.)

Steve

p.s. Most states have some sort of state regulation on electric utility rates. The details vary, of course.

p.p.s. If you live in those portions of California where the local government provides the electric service, the rates are not regulated by the California PUC. Palo Alto and Santa Clara are examples of this type of utility.

jason

12:13am | Mars 21, 2008

hi steve,

i decided to take out and take a frightening somewhat careful look at my edison bill.

like i said, it is a very complex bill. there are 26 (twenty-six) lines within 6 sub categories that make up two main categories of billing.

as i try and decipher the last bit where the stratospheric rates begin at the 200%+ tier, the charge is a min of 0.33531 when you combine the two main 200%+tier numbers. now, this is where it gets fuzzy for me: there are another two lines in the 200%+ subcatagories with rates of 0.06747 and 0.08875. i personally have no idea where these numbers go...so i just rounded them to be generous of 5 cents...hence, the 38 cents per kWh at the 200%+ tier. and if i were to purchase a tesla, with my present electrical consumption teetering into the 200%+ tier, that is why i came up with 38 cents/kWh to charge the car.

i have friends in the PG and E service area and yes, with 'similar' not same, lifestyles, their bills are around 1/2 to 1/3 less than mine (when you do not take the solar augmentation i have) into account.

my electricity billing structure is called 'net metering' and what sce does for solar and wind customers is the option to pay ones bill once a year. i am guessing because some households have big enough systems to generate more electricity than they can use...and sce doesnt pay for excess electricity. i think that there is an off-peak option one can sign up for that will help a little with the rates in non-peak hours and like i said, i do not mind paying a little extra for convenience. it is when i feel that i am being unfairly taken advantage of...this upsets me. this is one of the reasons i installed a solar pv system. i do not feel that sce is playing with a fair deck.

now. onto the tesla, the reason why we are all here...

hi darin!

my friends and i are very aware of the high cost of maintenance of exotic and non-exotic sports cars. that is part of the car (and for some reason is not a big deal for me...i guess because i have a 'choice' in the matter). i dont recall about cost really being any motive or factor in vehicle purchase. it is the 'value' for the money i am questioning/asking.

as for expensive cars, i am on my third mercedes and my wife is still on her first (she just loves her S class and refuses to get a new one because she hates the look of the current model). none were the lower c classes and none were considered cheap to buy. as for problems with the car, i am very picky and have had very very few despite the current consumer reports. in addition, the mercedes dealership i do my business with are more than cooperative with any service warranty or not. my 3 month old benz suv had a weird 'creak' with turns. i brought it in and they promptly took care of it. cause? hehehe, it was the newness of the leather rubbing against each other.

perhaps i am lucky but i have yet to have an horrific roadside failure with any of my cars. nor have i ever experienced returning to my car with a puddle of coolant or mystery fluid dripping from my cars. on my most recent cars, i just follow the scheduled maintenance (which used to be included in the cost of purchase) and never had a problem. whether it sounds crazy or not, mercedes scheduled maintenance is something like every 12k miles which includes the oil change. cost is something like $250 or so.

as for being coddled in a sports car. i have driven a dodge caravan and found it to be not that comfortable. the ergonomics were all wrong (esp the controls) and the car itself did not fit me well. the most comfortable car i have ever driven? my wifes S class. it has everything and anything one could want: comfort, controls ergonomics and performance (for a unmodified passenger sedan). the most impressive sport car cockpit i have had the pleasure to be in is in my friends ferrari 550 maranello. stunning. my personal favorite is mercedes s65 amg (can you tell i am a mercedes fan)...which is nothing more than a modified luxury sedan with a monster 604 hp engine plopped in there.

as for 'true' sports car cockpits where performance is obvious in everything, then that title would go to the ferrari f40. talk about spartan for cars that go for about $1M now. the most modern driver/sport/performance oriented production car cockpit i have sat in and driven so far is another of my friends...the carrera gt.

if one looks at the cockpits of similar priced sports cars mercedes sl550 and the bmw m5...to me, there is a world of a difference in cockpit comfort. by appearance only AND to be perfectly honest, i have not had the honor of sitting in a tesla cockpit so i do not know the 'coddling' comfort it has to offer. it 'looks' spartan to me. after all, i do have 'some' experience with higher end sports cars where i have owned, been privileged to drive or been as a passenger.

as for purchasing expensive technology...i am not scared of that. it is the inconvenience of any technology that i refuse to to compromise on. i am the prime demographic population that tesla appears to be marketing to. and 'if' i have these questions and concerns, i am sure there are others.

the biggest concern for me about the tesla is the charge distance capacity. yes, finding an electric outlet is easier to find than a gas station within urban and suburban areas but really, how practical is that? i cant imagine myself on a late night return from a long weekend only to worry about trying to find an electric outlet to plug into. since i do not own a tesla. i am going to ask how abouts am i going to locate an electric outlet that will ALLOW me to charge? i am envisioning pulling up to a gas station and asking to plug in. i dont know if that will work. i am also wondering if it would be even possible to just roll into a residential area and ask someone if i can use their electric outlet to charge my car a bit. if someone came knocking on my door asking this...it would be a polite 'no'.

the only time i have ever truly 'run out' of gas was when i was goofing off with a loaner car and wanting to see how long i could go with the 'gas' light on! that was pretty fun actually as i was 20 years old and had my buddies in the car with me. i have never run out of gas because of laziness, carelessness or the inability to locate a gas station.

again, the tesla is obviously a popular vehicle right now with the waiting list as evidence. i am asking the questions i am asking because i am curious, though they may appear rude in the face of tesla enthusiasts, they are legitimate questions to me and were never meant to be derogatory. i will state again, that i applaud tesla for taking this step in trying to find alternative methods in fuel and vehicle technology. this area is not new but is ever so much better with advances we have seen in battery, electric motor and aerodynamics.

Marc Ellenbroek

9:33am | Mars 21, 2008

In Europe the distances are indeed shorter than in the US as some wrote. A considerable portion of the kilometers are made by work-home trafic. Especially in Europe, these distances can easily be covered by the roadster, so it is an ideal car for this now already. I wonder why the roadster is preferably be sold in the US.

The developement of Tesla motors may lead to a major change in world. It will change the total automotive infrastructure and will put much pressure on the generation of electricity. Solar, wind, wave and for some time I guess also nuclear- and other regulary sourses- electrical power stations will additionally be needed to support the increasing demand. Also some major changes in the distribution of electricity are required. I foresee this emerging within five years. Other suppliers will also start to make electrically driven cars on batteries. In the Netherlands electrically supported bicycles are already very popular.

With the increasing electrical demand, the demand on petrol will decrease and hopefully also the need for oil. Due to the higher efficiencies of the electrically driven car the desired sustainable future may be our future!

Some additional things to further develope:
- A perfect indication of the (remaining) quality of the battery and the energy content
- Mentioned also elswhere: Quick exchange for batteries (what is the size and weight?)
- Increase the lifetime and capacity of the batteries

Marc

Kevin Harney

10:59am | Mars 21, 2008

Marc,

There are plans to release in the EU as soon as the regulations can be passed for export. I beleive that TM said it would probably happen in the next couple of years.

Kevin Harney

11:29am | Mars 21, 2008

Jason,

I think what the other west coast people are trying to say is that your electric car would be billed at an entirely different rate than you are now paying. Therefore you would now have 27 or 28 lines on your bill :) It does not get added on at the 300% tier. But I am from the east coast where rates are 5 -6 cents :)

I think that all of your other concerns are definately valid ones and I don't think anyone was offended by your remarks and questions. I think what they were trying to say is that there are ups and downs to both sides that is all. Some of the remarks may have been a little sarcastic - like the comfy Dodge Caravan one LOL - but the point remains.

The only REAL question that I see from you is the range one. This doesn't even seem to be a question but a statement. The range is not far enough for you. My question for you is what IS far enough. Wouldn't it be better for you to have 99% of your miles driven on electric power and just take the "old" Mercedes on the long weekend trips ? How many miles are these weekend trips ? Seems to me that if you are going over 200 miles for a weekend trip that you are not spending much time where you are going. If you travel 8 hours of the 48 that you are gone and sleep 16 that does not leave much time to enjoy where you are. But hey sometime you just might want to take a road trip !!!! All is good.

My point is that you could spend $0 on gas 99% of the time.

Most people that want a high performance sports car want simply that !!! A car that goes fast. And MOST of the time that means a car that is as light as possible with very little ammenities so that it can simply go FAST! Now that we have that from TM they are working on the next car which is more in line with a Luxury sedan which is what you seem to be talking about with your S class and other Mercedes'. So it is slightly unfair to compare the Roadster to a Mercedes S class as they are NOT in the same class of vehicle.

But I am still curious as to what range number would be acceptable to you. As I am struggling with that number myself. Also, if you would want the Whitestar (TM's Sedan model coming out soon) to have a range extending generator on board. These are samme ICE's that run solely for the purpose of generating electricity to power the car and are not used to actually propel the car down the road.

Brian H

2:47pm | Mars 21, 2008

Marc;
"Quick change" is not on for the Tesla; the battery is under the floor and behind the seats, and requires a lift to get at. By the time any such infrastructure would be possible, in any case, it would be made redundant and obsolete by the new nanoparticle and nanowire battery tech, with its 2000 mi.+ driving range, and <½ hr. charge cycle. The anode part is fully solved, and the cathode side is moving very fast.

I continue to follow closely as I can (as a non-nuclear-physics insider) the progress of focusfusion.org ; the March '08 postings are very positive, even better than hoped, and everything seems on track for about a 2012-3 debut of a full operating prototype generator. Once that has been run live, they will be almost trivial to replicate (cost <$500,000 each). Jason: you could have one of your own: does ~25MW at 0.1¢/kwh sound workable? ;)

jason

5:50pm | Mars 21, 2008

hi kevin!

thank you for the respectful and honest response.

perhaps my statement of range may be a little biased. in my life, a weekend trip is just not the destination but the journey as well. i love cars, i love to drive and i love going from place to place as part of the fun!

living in southern california, i enjoy weekend jaunts to and from places like:

santa barbara with a one way trip of 130 miles'ish. yes, i guess one could charge it at the hotel...but this may seem weird to me and the hotel may not allow this. yes, i could always call ahead but 'why'?.

san diego - one way is 100 miles'ish. doable one one charge barring any horrific traffic congestion (which there always is) and would be stressful for me worrying about running out of electricity.

las vegas - 260 miles'ish one way. i wouldnt make it there on one charge.

carmel california for the concourse d'elegance - one of my favorite events of the year. this is where my friends and i drive up with our cars and have some fun, fun, fun 'til daddy takes the t-bird away! unfortunately, it would be 350 mile drive one way.

my wife and i or when we travel with friends on weekend 'car trips' do in fact travel pretty light and part of the fun is taking our sports cars and racing (very safely) along side one another. i guess that is one of the small luxuries of a never ending summer.

on the s class comparison, i wasnt trying to compare a s class with a roadster. i was making a point that the dodge caravan was not the most comfortable car i have ever sat in or driven. i was making a comparison with other $100k roadsters like the sl550 and m6. the level of comfort and luxury combined with power and control is what i come to expect in cars of this price range. whether or not one is an electric car and the other internal combustion is irrelevant to me. i was trying to say that 'if i spend $100k on a car...i want it to feel and perform like a $100k car'. i hope that sounds fair and not arrogant because i wasnt wanting it to or trying to sound boastful.

yowsers brian!

if they can get a car with a 2000 mile charge, i would profoundly be interested in a tesla (or equivalent) esp if i had my own backyard fusion generator! i could almost do the gumball rally or cannonball run on that!!!

Brian H

7:14pm | Mars 21, 2008

jason;
Here's a link to the focusfusion Business Plan page. It's actually a current summary of status and efforts on all fronts:
(Jan. '08)

How many of those 200 mile + weekend trips do you really do each year !?!?!?! Couldn't you just take the old ICE on those trips only ?

And if the Whitestar had all of the ammenities that you are accustomed to would it appeal to you ?

And the big question is what range would you be comfortable with ? What about a generator on board to extend you range ? Generator would use about 1-2 gallons per hour and essentially make your range completely unlimited if it could generate 17kWh per hour which is a fairly small generator.

Brian H

5:52am | Mars 22, 2008

Kevin;
you're just talking about a hybrid. How about a small diesel generator optimized to run on vegetable oil? Stop at any burger joint and ask for a few gallons of their waste french fry oil when you run low! :) :D
Think I'm kidding? http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/ and many others. ;)

jason

10:38am | Mars 22, 2008

hi kevin...

lemme count...

i am estimating that i take a long road trip 10 to 12 times a year. two of those are significant because we like to drive our 'fun' ride at the time and the majority of them are in the late winter and summer (not really a winter here...it's like a cold summer for a lack of a better description).

thus, i guess my 'focus' is more on a true performing sports car for 'fun' and a comfortable sedan for whenever wherever. both vehicles, for me, would need range, convenience and a level of finish comparable to the money spent. hopefully, this sounds 'logical' and reasonable.

could someone link me to detailed whitestar info.

hi brian,

wow, that video brings me back to the days of school. flashbacks riddled with pain, anguish and thinking about putting sharp objects through my temple. is there a summary, cliff notes or just get to the point info on the fusion plant? :D

Earl

10:56am | Mars 22, 2008

Regarding the issue of charging a Tesla Roadster: There are over 1000 chargers scattered about California. Originally they were the government's contribution to facilitating getting Zero Emissions Vehicles on the road. Today, they are supported by private, non-profit groups. There is a list of them at www.evchargernews.com. Although the number of chargers is decreasing due to the lack of vehicles on the road, their numbers will likely increase as Tesla and others again start manufacturing BEVs again. Likewise, Hyatt Hotels has already committed to putting chargers at their hotels and, as BEV's increase, it is very likely that other hotel chains will follow.
Before anyone jumps on me, telling me that the Tesla uses a different kind of charger than the public inductive or conductive ones that exist today, I'll point out that adapters are available to convert the conductive ones (AVCON) to standard NEMA plugs that will work with the Tesla Roadster. The inductive paddle chargers such as the RAV4EV and the EV1 used are likely to become orphans eventually. Of course, they can easily be switched out for Tesla chargers for relatively little cost.
For Jason's trip to Santa Barbara, there are already several public chargers in Santa Barbara or perhaps your hotel would help you out.
The LA to Vegas trip would certainly be helped with a charger mid way although today you could top off at the Ontario Mills mall and probably have enough juice to make it to Vegas. In Vegas, you could certainly stay at a hotel with RV facilities to charge but I suspect public Tesla chargers will become available soon after cars are delivered. Adding chargers in Baker and Barstow, the 2 urban areas between LA and LV, is also likely, maybe the Mad Greek would help out by putting one at the base of the Worlds Largest Thermometer.
The LA to SF trip is a little tricky but, I can assure you it is doable and will become even easier. My wife and I (living in LA) have a vested interest in solving this problem as a half-owner of a Roadster with my parents (living in the Bay Area). It can certainly be done today the same way I did it with my 120 mile EV1 using the public chargers in Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, and Salinas. However, it would be nice to have a 70 Amp Tesla charger somewhere in the San Luis Obispo area (near somewhere fun to hang out), just so there is a faster charge than the old 30 amp public chargers can give.
I suspect, Jason, that if you put your money down on a Roadster today, your charging problems will be pretty well solved by the time Tesla is able to deliver your car. You'll be able to cruise all around SoCal in your Roadster, fast, guilt free, and ignorant about gas prices. If you get your Tesla Roadster and are still having problems with certain road trips, we can discus and solve them on this or the owners' forum.
I'm pretty sure that as BEVs proliferate, roadside establishments will see the benefits of encouraging people to stop at their location and provide charging (and spending) opportunities. Today, there are only about 200 highway capable production BEV's in private hands using public chargers. Tesla will likely double that number by the end of 2008 alone. Market forces and pressure from early adopters will only make things better over time.
In the mean time, let's just encourage Tesla to get many cars on the road as soon as possible.
Go Tesla!

J in MN

12:30pm | Mars 22, 2008

Jason wrote:
san diego - one way is 100 miles’ish. doable one one charge barring any horrific traffic congestion (which there always is) and would be stressful for me worrying about running out of electricity.

EVs, like hybrids, LOVE congestion! Lower speed, less drag, more range. Every time you cut your speed in half, your range goes up four times.

Kevin Harney

1:09pm | Mars 22, 2008

Brian,

No according to the talk Hybrid and REEV are totally different. But I am not sure that I disagree with you. REEV is supposedly different in the fact that the ICE does not actually power the car to make it move. It is a generator that creates pwoer for the Electric motor only. Hybrids use the motor to move the car and thus get much lower gas mileage than an REEV. Example being Toyota Prius. It get rated 46 MPG. If you put a generator in the Whitestar it would burn 1-2 gallons per hour but you have the initial charge before that so you would travel like 400 miles and use 8 gallons or so which is not that much higher at 50 MPG except that anything under 200 miles would be at 0 MPG so only the long trips would be slightly better than a hybrid all the rest of the time it would be substantially higher mileage than a hybrid. In short you start out way higher MPG than a hybrid and the longer you drive on 1 charge the closer you get to hybrid mileage. Recharging overnight or something resets back to high mileage - in the neighborhood of 100-150 MPG.

Kevin Harney

1:11pm | Mars 22, 2008

Brian,

Nobody said anything and the generator NEEDEDING to run on old fashioned gas either. Could be biodesiel or Fuel cell or what ever.

jason

2:01pm | Mars 22, 2008

earl,

that is an awesome website that points to where chargers are. definitely helpful to see a visual on it. i am actually pretty surprised to see so many scattered around orange county (where i live). very cool!

let's say 'in theory' that i would dare take it up to vegas and do a top off at ontario. how long would i need to charge it for before i can make it to vegas? or...if there was a charger in barstow (the usual route i take), how long would i need to charge that as well before i get the go ahead?

thanks for all the info so far. this is a very interesting dialogue for me so far! :)

BTW, the device generates 40% of its power in X-rays. If it is rigged to maximize and aim them, instead of minimize and trap them for energy, a powerful structural scanner can be made, which building and bridge and road authorities are very interested in. It can scan from "outside", that is from one side, and read the bounceback, instead of having to arrange a "catcher" photographic plate or detector on the other side, so is immensely more versatile. It is expected to be spun out as an early revenue generator and cash-cow a few years before the reactor is available. That will make the project independent of outside sources of investment, etc.

Brian H

7:49pm | Mars 22, 2008

Kevin;
yes, I was confused about the terminology. A steady charging mode of operation is inherently more efficient than ramping up and down.

J in MN brings up an interesting point. If charge is getting low, drive slow and steady. Reminds me of the old joke about the old lady roaring her Model T down the main street at 30 mph and getting pulled over. When questioned, she explained she was running out of gas, and was hurrying to the station before it was all gone! (Thereby burning far more than if she'd dawdled, of course.) ;)

But I think J in MN is somewhat overstating the difference. Energy to reach a particular speed is proportional to the square of the speed, but holding at that speed doesn't have the same penalties. Hence cruise control, etc. And the downside of congestion is the start-stop costs, though this is much reduced with regenerative braking.

Oh, the other trick to extend range is to sit behind a semi-trailer (not too close). There's a "sweet spot" a few lengths back (at highway speeds) where the airflow almost sucks you along for free! I used to get great mileage on my motorcycle doing this. :D

Earl

8:36pm | Mars 22, 2008

Jason,
Yes, there are a lot of chargers. The real crime with the killing of the 90's electric cars is that we taxpayers shelled out many millions of dollars to build out an infrastructure to support them. The car companies then welched on their end of the deal and wasted a lot of our money. I do believe in conspiracies: There is definitely a subversive grassroots conspiracy that is working (often without compensation) to try to get plug-in vehicles on the road. There are many organizations and evchargernews.com is but one of the more devoted and successful of them. TM and its employees, bloggers, forum readers, t-shirt wearers, and customers, of course, would be another.
As far as your stop in Ontario on the way to Vegas, knowing it's about 260 miles from your house to LV and the fact that they are old chargers at Ontario Mills that only charge at 30 amps, I get that you'd have to sit for about 1.6 hours. This is kind of a long roadside breakfast or dinner but doable. Once we get a 70 amp charger in Barstow (or Baker) you should need less than an hour of top-off - thats a pretty reasonable leg stretch. I'm pretty sure that if you crawl to LV at 55 mph, you can probably make the 260 miles on a single charge but what's the fun of that :) . [my math: assuming 220 miles/3.5 hour charge at 70 amps => 63 miles/hour charging (~ 1 mile/minute :) ). You only need 40 miles so about 40 minutes. a 30 amp charger (assuming 8 hours for a full charge) will only give you about 27 miles/hour charging. In reality the times will vary a bit from theory].
I don't know any more about the Whitestar than what this website tells us - I am pretty psyched about it though. It could be more of a game changer than the Roadster even though the Roadster is going to shake the car world as much as the ICE did around the turn of the century. The Whitestar and the Bluestar are the reasons we're springing for the Roadster. GM wouldn't listen to us when we told them we wanted them to build upon their awesome EV1 and save our automobile based economy for future generations. I'm sure they can hear $100,000 loud and clear, even if they can't hear a Tesla Roadster as it blows away their beloved 'vette. it looks like it will have been a great investment in the future and the payoff is going to be a blast.
Again, by the time you get your Roadster (presumptuous aren't I :) ), I am likely to have completed the trips to Vegas and SF and reported on it for you to follow as I live near Pasadena but take the same basic route.

On the talk video, pick up at the 38 min mark, and you'll get a description of the reactor itself.

DamionKutaeff

3:01am | Mars 23, 2008

Hello everybody, my name is Damion, and I'm glad to join your conmunity,
and wish to assit as far as possible.

Darin Ladd

10:42am | Mars 23, 2008

Jason--

You're right; I apoligize for the sarcasm. My point about the Dodge Caravan (should I have used Honda Odyssey?) was that its purpose is completely different from a sports car (e.g., it allows one to sit in a more upright position with the legs pointed towards the ground versus stretched out in front--important for those of us with known back problems). So, to expect a sports car to be something it is not is not fair (even the comparison to an M5 is not apples-to-apples, the M5 is a sedan--albeit a sports sedan). I'll also admit, the experience I had with sports cars is somewhat different from yours (Mine: Porche Boxter, Corvette, Honda S2000, and BMW Z3, Yours: Ferrari f40, Carrera gt, Ferrari 550 maranello, Mercedes s65 amg). The Tesla seems to split the difference monetarily between our respective experiences, although, I would argue that at my price point creature comforts aren't as important as tuned exhaust. If one springs for an Italian sports car, I can see how he/she might expect more.

The other point I was trying to make, and it appears you agree, is that charge capacity is not as important as infrastructure. If you're in the market to buy right now, I agree there are serious concerns. However (a point both I and other posters previously made in other threads), it is still possible to stretch the mileage of an electric car with today's infrastructure if one plans out the trip. For example, call the hotel you'll be staying at and ask if they will allow you to charge your vehicle. Call your favorite restaurant chain along the way and ask if they mind if you charge while you eat lunch/dinner there (in about an hour worth of charging, you can certainly extend your range). My guess is that these organizations will be happy to oblige you as long as the Tesla is a novelty. A little further down the road (like 5 years), when they start charging (money) for a charge, the infrastructure will probably exist (there is a dual benefit to a restaurant or hotel providing a charging station in their parking lot--they've now sold you lunch and fuel . . .) That's where my argument was headed. The only question this leaves unanswered is what one does if he/she wants to head into the wilderness with this vehicle? I would argue that this is a fairly low probability event with a sports car, but one to which there is not currently an acceptable answer.

Finally, as to the reliability question. Even with Mercedes, its only been in the last 20 years that reliability has improved to a level that I consider acceptable. Here, we're presented with a vehicle/technology that leapfrogs 80-100 years worth of expensive, concerted development and simplifies the automobile concept greatly. Like I said before, I really do think that this advantage (and the freedom from depending on service departments at all, except for the most serious repairs) will matter as much or more to average consumers who plan to keep a vehicle 10 years or more. Maybe I'm old fashioned; I realize that this applies to almost no one right now in the U.S.

I also stand corrected on your tenacity. (A few posters lately have popped on long enough to say "I hate it, it'll never work" and then disappeared.) Many happy returns!

P.S. -- why am I so opposed to dealer service departments? Mostly it was my experience with my Z3. I used three BMW service departments (and one BMW body shop, unfortunately) over the 6 years I owned my Z3 in the following states: Ohio, Virginia, and Alabama. Though they were clean, and the individuals were friendly, I was left with two main impressions: 1) they didn't really know their stuff (long story), and 2) they were ripping me off (c'mon, a $50/hr labor rate for putting on tires? And 2.5 hrs of labor?). Maybe Mercedes is different, but I'd rather just not have to deal with it.

Brian H

1:24pm | Mars 23, 2008

Darin;
I've generally found dealer service departments to function like designated perpetual cash cows. The best service I've ever got, repeatedly over many years, is from an independent. Samson Auto Repair, in Vancouver, BC, run by a Chinese guy, Mr. C. I once had a recurring electrical problem with a Honda which he couldn't isolate after hours of trying. He replaced the master fuse strip for $1 and refused to take more, and referred me to an auto electric specialist (who correctly diagnosed that the alternator at some point had been replaced with a Toyota version that put out 50% too much juice.) Every friend I've referred there has come away awed by his competence and honesty.

That's the kind of connection you keep for life. Dealer service shops, not so much. ;)

Brian H

9:39am | Mars 24, 2008

jason;
If you were selling your excess capacity from the Focus Fusion reactor you are hoping to put into your backyard at $0.05/kwh, it would take, using the low end of output and high end of cost, $500,000/(4,000kw x 24hrs x $0.05) = 104 days to pay for it. After that, you would get an income of 4,000 x 24 x .05 = $4,800 / day = $1,752,000 / year income.
That's ~350% ROI per annum.
(The above assumes you are using 1 MW personally, and that the generator is the smallest size mentioned, 5 MW.)

Productive back yard!

dave

12:32pm | Mars 24, 2008

Look out tesla, here comes the Phoenix Motors SUV! What a sweet car. It will soon be available for sale. All electric too. It's range is estimated at 130 m per charge. Next years range is estimated at 250 m. Can the vaporware whitstar top this?

The electric grid and generation resources are going to have to evolve and upgrade, obviously.

CM

10:17pm | Mars 24, 2008

Brian H: The thought of a "backyard focus fusion generator" sounded good, until I realized that my houshold electrical main (240 volt 200 amp) will only handle 48 kilowatts, and that big honkin thing would be putting out 5,000 kilowatts! Finding ways to dump all that excess energy without frying the neigborhood, and the cost (waay outside my budget), and the intense X-rays it produces - well, that kills the dream real fast. But then, like all the other fusion researchers, they have yet to reach breakeven or produce usable amounts of power, so it is premature to speculate on what power output and cost will be.

jason

11:42pm | Mars 24, 2008

hi darin,

thanks for the reply!

it appears that mercedes dealership rate charges are really not that different than bmw's as i just paid a $500 bill for just brakes on my wife's car.

forums like this are very very helpful and having intelligent responses definitely are more informative than up turned nose, smarter than you ego driven dialog.

the white star is definitely appealing to me as a daily commuter...since my morning commute is 1.1 miles and i go home for lunch everyday (the three days that i work anyway...:)).

as for the tesla roadster...i am still somewhat still rubbing my chin on it and would definitely love to take a look at one. i am the kick the tires kind of guy and like to see and feel what something like before making decisions on things. also, truthfully, i am still the guzzling gas gearhead that i think will be challenging for me to overcome the concept of what a sports car is like...noisy, throaty, smell of exhaust, feel the rumble of the engine in the cockpit and especially the incomparable torque curve as you accelerate. the tesla curve sounds weird yet strangely intersting.

earl,

i did not know that the car companies backed out on plug in electric cars. 'perhaps' their research department 'thought' that consumers werent ready or willing yet for a plug in car. i know i wasnt and just now am curious about plug in cars. gas was still very cheap and there was pretty much zero environmental concerns esp with greenhouse gases, global warming and al gore seemingly large enough to implode and create his own fusion energy. all i saw were empty chargers that were never used and i did not know of one single person with a plug in car. i would be safe to say that with high probability that none of my friends would have been interested in something like that back then as well.

thank you all for the great responses. it is late and tomorrow is my hump day!

cheers! :)

Brian H

12:12am | Mars 25, 2008

CM;
Actually, just kind of playing and joking with the "backyard" idea. It's really not a personal power unit. And there are no X-rays outside the inner housing. They're all trapped and bled off for more electricity (actually, that constitutes ~40% of the energy output, which is almost exactly the "profit" or above-breakeven energy). The version for scanning that produces a "bright beam" of X-rays is specially modified for that purpose.
As far as the "excess power", if you had such a unit and offered to sell output to the utility / grid at, say $0.05 or even $0.08 / kwh, they'd probably jump at it. And be very happy to run wiring to your site to bleed off the load.

Brian H

12:16am | Mars 25, 2008

Go to the Think blog; Ze'ev is co-ordinating a drive to pressure the CARB not to gut the Zero Emission Mandate law and regulations this Thursday. It has an impact on Tesla's projected future income from selling excess compliance credits, apparently, and would be just a major gift or handout to the majors who have dragged their feet.

BTW, is it true that Ze'ev stands for "Zero emission, electric vehicle"? :)

Brian H

12:42am | Mars 25, 2008

CM;
Just to clarify: "Bled off as more electricity”". The reactor is swathed in thousands of layers of various foils, each draining a bit more of the X-ray power as electrical current.

And, if you do the math, a backyard unit would make you feelthy rich. P'raps $2M a year free and clear. :) That is, until the entire grid was supplied by such units, and then the utility would no longer be ready to buy at 30X cost of the new source!

Dan(lazy)Honnet

7:10am | Mars 25, 2008

Hello everybody, my name is Daniel, and I'm glad to join your conmunity,
Wish to assist as far as possible.

Kevin Harney

8:34am | Mars 25, 2008

Dave,

Pheonix being available for sale and PRODUCED are 2 totally different things !!! Just ask anyone here at TM and they will tell you that is DEFINATELY true. Best of hopes to them though !!! The more the merrier I say :)

Brian H

9:39am | Mars 25, 2008

Kevin;
one source guessed the Phoenix price point at about $45,000. But it really has a dog in the CARB hunt; it was counting heavily on the emissions credits which are in danger of being cancelled for its financial viability, I hear. Tesla, not so much; it's quite secondary. So Tesla and Phoenix are pulling in the same direction at the Thursday hearings, for sure.

Eric

6:10pm | Mars 25, 2008

Kurt/Tesla,

Why no answer regarding the Lithium portion of the battery?? Is the plan to just dispose of this currently as eluded to in the blog post? That's the most valuable part if there's a way to capture the lithium in a way that allows for use in another battery.

Eric: That question was answered somewhere in this blog. The lithium is recovered and sold.

Eric

9:32pm | Mars 30, 2008

Roy: I looked a bit and couldn't find anything. I guess maybe the ambiguous semi-colon correction implies it's sold and not discarded, but I expected more information about the lithium portion. Thanks for following up on my post.

Hunter

10:24am | Mars 31, 2008

Eric-

Here's the revised line with the semicolon:

"Soda ash is added to resulting process solution and precipitates out as lithium carbonate; liquid is bled off after lithium salt recovery, and is sent off as non hazardous effluent for proper disposal."

So...what part of "lithium salt recovery" is ambiguous? Nothing is implied here; "recovery" of the salt explicitly means something other than "disposal." Furthermore, lithium carbonate is a valuable commodity; "recovering" it and then simply throwing it away is downright silly. As to your expectation of more information, there's just not much more to say about the Lithium portion, beyond that it is recovered. He's telling you the specific process by which they reclaim a pure Li salt, what more do you want to know?

Sid

4:04pm | Avr. 1, 2008

After the Lithium is recovered is it as good as new Lithium?

Thomas J.

1:22am | Avr. 2, 2008

From Wikipedia:

"Lithium carbonate is an important industrial chemical. It forms low-melting fluxes with silica and other materials. Glasses derived from lithium carbonate are useful in ovenware. Cement sets more rapidly when prepared with lithium carbonate, as is useful for tile adhesives. When added to aluminium trifluoride, it forms LiF which gives a superior electrolyte for the processing of aluminium.[1] It is also used in the manufacture of most lithium-ion battery cathodes, which are made of lithium cobalt oxide.

Lithium carbonate is used to treat manic states and bipolar disorder. Lithium ions interfere with chemical reactions that relay and amplify messages carried to the cells of the brain.[2]

Daily doses of lithium, a drug used to treat bipolar disorder, have been found to delay progression of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) in an Italian study of 44 people with the disease. No other treatment to date has shown such a dramatic effect on ALS."

So, yes, recovering the lithium from the old batteries in the form of lithium carbonate is very useful and worthwhile. Although I doubt it would have the level of purity for phamaceutical use, there are plenty of other industrial uses, including the manufacture of new batteries.

Kevin Harney

1:56pm | Avr. 4, 2008

Hunter,

Proper disposal and Recycling are two different things. But perhaps I am just splitting words. Proper disposal could be a controlled dump where it is contained and then trashed properly. This is not necessarily recycled.

It is great work you are doing. I have a question, why aren't the roof and say the hoods made with or covered with solar collecting panels for trickle charging will the the car is parked all day in the sun.

It might not be work as well here on the west coast of Canada, but is southern California.

jim

CM

11:26pm | Avr. 9, 2008

"why aren’t the roof and say the hoods made with or covered with solar collecting panels... "

The Roadster isn't that big, covered with solar cells in full sun it would only collect a hundred watts or so at most. It would take more than 2 hours to add just 1 mile worth of driving! The solar power would be reduced dramatically with any shading, and when the sunlight was at a low angle. Better to put the solar panels on a roof, facing the sun and unshaded, to maximize the power produced and feed it back into the grid.

It would add a some weight to the car, and if not carefully fitted could incread aerodynamic drag.

But the main reason is photovoltaic cells are expensive, adding to the cost without adding enough benefit to justify the extra cost. However, if the price of photovoltaics were to drop enough, we could start seeing them used a lot more and appearing on cars.

Peter

2:53am | Avr. 12, 2008

Hi Kurt,

Love your work on this amazing car.

Can you tell me if you have been looking into super capacitors as a power source of the future? I have found this link and its sound very exciting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor . Is it this a hoax? Have you looked into the company making the claims?

I would love to hear you opinion.

Patrick Chin, P.Eng.

5:16am | Avr. 16, 2008

Have you ever thought of using ultracapacitors like the Zenn Car www.zenncars.com. These ultra capacitors uses nano carbon tube technology which is really efficient and ultra lite. It better than chemical batteries. 100 % reusable and lifetime guarantee. These ultra capacitors are extremely affordable and no worries of disposal. It just like chucking coal back into the ground. Is actually better for the environment. Plus, the regulator on the capacitors can be regulated to any power that is needed at an instant. I would love to see the Tesla motor run from an ultra capacitor. I believe Nicola Tesla would have loved it this way. It is almost the same design as his Tesla loop. It would be great to see these carbon tubes flexible, thus the capacitor can formed and shaped, back seats anyone. But as soon as you add flexibiliy, the life of the product degrades structurally due to fatigue.

Patrick Chin, P.Eng.

5:26am | Avr. 16, 2008

One more thing about the ultra capacitors, you can have bigger stationary ultra capacitor (if you want), to instantly charge up your car in minutes or even seconds (if you want a lightning strike). Or you can take it the hourly way which is just plug it into an AC adaptor. Waiting for charge is up to your charger. All the new electric stations at parking lots at work could have this instant charge or hourly. Employers can have give access to the employees to this charging station or just have one at home. Or have these instant charging stations all around town at a small fee. Hey... what a way to design infrastructure. Or even better yet, natural electrical charging with RF signals as you drive along. It may be small amounts at a time, but I don't think anyone drives 24 hours a day. If you have these instant charging stations for races, just think how far the ultra capacitors will go.

Patrick Chin, P.Eng.

7:34am | Avr. 16, 2008

Have you ever considered having disappearing car doors on your products: http://www.disappearing-car-door.com/
Hey what happened to my comment regarding ultra capacitors with nano carbon tube technology that is being used on other electric car companies and how environmentally friendly they are. Plus, the great benefits of instantaneous charge rather than waiting hours to charge with larger ultra capacitor stations at work, home stations along the way.

jason

12:28pm | Avr. 17, 2008

i like cm's idea of solar panels augmenting electrical use of the car...

but as the reply mentions it would add little benefit to the total output of the car's performance.

if i may humbly suggest, perhaps, are some photovoltaic cells that is integrated as a part of the car's roof. they should not protrude as this would cut down aerodynamics and add overall drag.

the pv cells could help not with the actual performance of the car but perhaps aid when the car is sitting outside in the sun and it operates circulation fans, cooling fans etc and not draw on the battery. mercedes top end maybachs already have this feature, and besides looking sharp, they aid in cabin temp control.

how expensive are pv's? pretty cheap imo. i looked at costco and they have a 160 watt array WITH the inverter for under $1000. and that is with it fully finished in a case and made consumer ready. i would imagine that getting raw cells would be cheaper. $1000 for a car with a $100k price tag is not significant and if it makes for a more comfortable and efficient car while sitting in the sun and not adding little to no additional weight.

Patric Chin:
We have all been watching EEStor progress for years now, but there is no proof offered that their capacitors work as claimed. They do not use nano carbon tube technology. Where did you get your information? They announced a target price of about $3300 for a Tesla sized pack over a year ago, but as far as I know there are none actually for sale and no official price yet. I read recently that ZENN is designng their own regulator, and yes it would be no good if it did not provide instant power, but again I have not seen any regulator announced or available. I believe the regulator will cost at least as much as the capacitors. Do not criticize Tesla for not using vaporware. Progress is being made on making charging stations available publicly, but not fast charge. Personally I think fast charge is a red herring, it simply will not be required by most EV drivers. When Electric trucks are running down the freeways, fast charge stations will be required for them. EEStor is supposed to deliver their first capacitors to ZENN this year, so we should find out how real they are and the actual specifications soon. Oh, and they are defininetly not flexible.

Leonid

8:25am | Avr. 21, 2008

Hello!
Would you be so kind to tell me, who can i ask about motor,which is used in tesla car?
2. What operating voltage in teslacar? You use 12V cells which are connectced in one with high voltage and low capacity or parralel in one low voltage but hig capacity?

CM

10:31pm | Avr. 24, 2008

Leonid: The motor is a 3 phase AC induction motor, 250 hp, 185 Kw peak power, designed and built by Tesla. This requires a special inverter controller to operate, also designed and built by Tesla.

The Energy Storage System (ESS) uses 6,281 LiIon cells, size 18650, 3 volts each. They are wired in a series/parallel fashion, giving both high voltage and high amperage.

Old fashioned 12 volt lead acid automotive batteries are much too heavy and store too little electrical energy for a high performance car like the Tesla Roadster.

Patrick Chin, P.Eng.

7:23pm | Avr. 25, 2008

I don't think carbon nano tubes ultra capacitors are vaporware. Most people in Tesla's time considered Tesla's theories as vaporware. All I could say is to keep an open mind and consider it. Just google "carbon nano tubes ultracapacitors" and walla. I love your goal of have a powerfull efficient car, but just look at the title of your blog. It would be marketable and beneficial to at put ultracapacitors as future considerations in your designs. Chemical batteries are now considered old technology that is costly to the environment.

CM

12:01am | Avr. 26, 2008

Hmm, I Googled the "carbon nanotube ultracapacitors" mentioned by Patrick Chin. Interesting, but they are a recent lab development, and not available for sale. It will be quite some time before all the bugs are worked out and manufacturing can begin, and there is no indication of what the price will be. Currently, carbon nanotubes are expensive to make, unless a cheaper method is developed, those nanotube capacitors cannot be cost competitive.

Moreover, energy density is not that great, just over 60 wh per Kg, comparable to good NiMH batteries but less than half the energy density of the LiIon battery pack Tesla Motors uses. Carbon Nanotube Ultracaps may find a use as a power buffer in some future EVs, assuming a reasonable price, but It is doubtful ultracaps will ever be able to replace chemical batteries.

For those freaking out over "chemical batteries", here's something else to freak out about: Those carbon nanotube ultracaps are also stuffed full of chemicals! Since we'd need twice the weight in ultracaps to get the same energy storage, that means twice as much CHEMICALS to deal with!

Nathan

8:02am | Avr. 26, 2008

Tesla Battery Peeps---News Flash----

I think Tesla could come up with a better and more economical system, all Hymotion is offering here is a set of batteries and small controller---What does Tesla Motors Think?? Could you get the cost down to $3000 and still make a 50% markup??

Hymotion is starting to sell their battery packs for the Prius.

***********Become-a-pioneer

We are now taking $1000 deposits for the Hymotion™ L5 Plug-in Conversion Modules for the Toyota Prius. The L5 is priced at $9995 + all applicable taxes + $400 destination fee. Installation and a standard 3 year warranty are included. Place a deposit now to reserve your L5 and choose the A123 Green Certified Hymotion Installer Partner (CHIP) dealer location of your choice. Consumer delivery and installations are expected to begin in July 2008. Actual installation date will be subject to overall demand and product availability.

After placing your $1000 deposit you will receive a confirmation email that will include a deposit confirmation code and further details on the installation process. Additionally, we will contact you within 5 business days of placing your deposit with your specific target installation timeframe. Deposits are fully refundable for a $75 processing fee up to 30 days prior to your installation date.

Thanks for your answering, of course, 12 volts cells are too heavy.
Well, next questions:
1.What operating frequent of tesla roadster motor? It is obvious that tesla roadster 3 phase motor doesn’t work at 60 Hz, cause it won’t be progressive.
2.Is mechanical characteristic of your 3 phase motor as well as equivalent series direct current motor or it’s just alike as an industrial 3 phase AC motor?
3.How much cells weigh?
4.What are nominal torque and speed of your motor?
5.185Kw is peak power, so, I suppose nominal power is about 75-120Kw others Kw are overload ability of your motor about 40 or 60% from nominal power, isn’t I?

It is very interesting to speak with people, who use modern technologies. And you are the first person who gives me really interesting information about modern AC motors and its use. I express you my gratitude.

Brian H

8:07pm | Avr. 27, 2008

GM;
What source did you have for silicon nanotube battery energy density? As I read the Stanford material, it sounds like there is very high energy and power density.
Patrick;
please, no "walla"s . It's "voilá". French, you know. Means literally, "look there".

CM

11:11pm | Mai 2, 2008

Leonid: The AC induction motor controller is variable frequency, the friequency dependent on the rotor speed and power output requirements. The motor is similar to industrial 3 phase motors, except for being lighter, variable speed, and a bit more efficient - Tesla went with a copper rotor, industrial motors usually use aluminum rotors. Induction motors are quite different from DC series wound motors. and use different controllers. Both torque and speed are variable, the maximun speed is about 13,000 RPM, I don't know the maximun torque. 185 Kw is a continuous power rating, the motor can handle higher power for short bursts until the thermal protection kicks in. I don't know how much the individual cells weigh, but the entire Energy Storage System weighs about 900 pounds. I found most of this info right here on this website at various locales.

Brian H. Don't confuse "Carbon Nanotube Ultracapacitors" with "Silicon Nanowire Lithium Ion batteries", the two are quite different. Ultracapacitors store energy by electrostatic fields, can be fully discharged without harm, are long lived, have very high power density but very low energy density. LiIon batteries store energy electrochemically, can be damaged by full discharge, have high power density and high energy density.

Edgar Mendez

11:28pm | Mai 2, 2008

I am concerned about if the battery will last as long on freezing temperatures have you guys done that test .Example i go to work about 25 mile drive and let my car sitting outside at temperatures up to 40 below with wind chill, very posible in Wisconsin and come back after a 8 hour shift will my car work.

Robert Bernal

9:10pm | Mai 3, 2008

I agree that we shouldn't have to worry (much) about recycling such non toxic batteries, instead, we should be recycling our deserts. You see, they are wasting heat on what could otherwise be (sunlight) energy focused by mirrors to generate juice for these electric cars. Not only would (mirrors) displace the heat effect caused by (otherwise) really dark colored PV "painted" deserts, they can create more energy "per amount absorbed by the land", in consideration of the albedo effect. Please become (very) aware of this fact and do not allaw the retro enviro's to use this (the albedo effect) as a devise to underpin the true enviromental objective: Unlimited renewable energy infrastructure, or REI , better than heat generated by fossils and (even more) by subsiquent CO2 !

Robert Bernal

9:32pm | Mai 3, 2008

definately garage anything to do with freezing temps... or expend energy on thermal protection, still (should be) much less than actual mobility

Michael N.

12:01am | Mai 4, 2008

I note that the blog author, Mr. Kelty, has not not responded to many questions. Nonetheless, I hope I can at least provoke some discussion...

1. In your discussion of recycling the cells, you gloss over the energy requirements to transport the spent cells to a recycling site, and then transport of the waste to various other sites. There are also the total energy and toxic waste considerations for the manufacturing processes (rumors persist among anti-Prius curmudgeons that there is no net gain when the whole picture is considered). Japan may not allow their environment to be contaminated, but that does not mean that there is no toxic waste. If the technology has any future, the enormous numbers of batteries manufactured would make any toxic by-products and energy consumption a point of concern. If use of batteries is so advantageous, you should publish accurate and detailed figures of the comprehensive energy and toxic waste consequences of manufacture and recycling. And, of course, this is all just an indulgent party trick if sustainable electric power generation doesn't supplant the current infrastructure.

2. There is also the question of availability of natural resources. What is the realistic production capacity of elemental lithium? Are you anticipating a successor technology, that uses more abundant materials, to emerge?

3. Is Tesla gambling that technological advances, such as those promised by the nano-wire battery, will solve the basic limitation of current Li-Ion batteries?

4. Did Tesla consider the use of Lithium POLYMER technology in order to improve energy density and service life? Certainly you have not shied away from cost considerations, and Li-Poly is supposedly slightly cheaper in the long run.

5. Another leading-edge technology that you do not use (not that I have read every word of your website...) is the ultracapacitor, a leading developer of which is a domestic company, http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/index.asp . It seems to me that this is a technology that merits advocacy even more than any chemical battery, and Maxwell have been participating in hybrid vehicle projects for several years now. Did Tesla evaluate ultracapacitors?

6. Why a sports car?? There are several Porsches that will out-accelerate it, and really, its handling (probably) and styling (I agree with the above poster) don't hold a candle to anything in its price range. I am curious: with the same battery, but a different motor, could the gratuitous, illegal and un-good-citizen-like speed performance be traded for a significantly better range? Even at a fifth the price, you would have difficulty marketing a car with the Roadster's current range/charge time .

IFF batteries, and the photovoltaic cells to charge them, advance a great deal, then electric vehicles are the ultimate solution; in the near-to-mid term, however, I think hydroponically grown algae oil for use in combustion engines is the more promising technology : http://www.valcent.net/s/HDVGS.asp?ReportID=264273 .

Good luck, though.

Russ T.

9:34am | Mai 7, 2008

Just wondering if you considered integrating any self -generating electrical systems (possibly a fixed or removable solar panel / or air induction to a wind turbine) to increase the range and reduce plug-in recharging? Would it generate enough power to justify cost? Just a thought. By the way, love the car.

Brian H

6:31pm | Mai 11, 2008

Russ T;
Quantities and physics matter. The incident solar power on the car skin is trivial compared to requirements, and "air induction" ALWAYS ends up costing more thru drag than even a 100% efficient air turbine, which does not and cannot exist, could possibly return. Unless you want to park the car and be a little windmill for a while (a few weeks in a gale should do it.)

You may have already addressed this, and perhaps I have overlooked it: breaking. I've read about your utilization of heat generated from breaking to extend the battery life between recharges; excellent. But what about breaks getting too hot: What is the break fade, for example, when getting down on them to STOP, minimizing the stopping distance let's say from 80 mph to zero? And doing it several times one after another like on the race track.

Without engine compression and shifting into lower gears to assist the breaks in slowing down into tight corners and controlling speed while driving down 6% down-grades on steep mountain passes, will the breaks get too hot and decrease their effectiveness? Please tell me about the electric motors's capacity to slow a vehicle down compared to the internal combustion engine's.

I love the whole concept of the electric car, especially your Tesla Roadster. It's a beautiful piece of machinery. I want to own one, and probably could after the kids are gone. My wife really wants an electric car. She really does! She not only wants to help protect the environment, she strongly dislikes giving our money to the oil cartels. Is it a rumor that Tesla Motors is designing a mini van and/or a passenger car too? I could buy one today if you had more than two seats and a larger trunk.

Tell me more about the breaking: stopping distances, breakfade, and handling compared to other exotic cars of its class. Has Road&Track performed a comparison test on it?

CM

6:43pm | Mai 16, 2008

Dan Thornton: Regenerative braking does NOT use brake heat! It uses the induction motor as a generator, converting mechanical energy back into electrical power and slowing the car in the process. This is separate from the conventional hydraulic brakes, and thanks to regenerative braking the hydraulic brakes are used much less, thus less heat produced. The Roadster (and other cars with regenerative braking) are much less prone to brake fade, and the brake pads last much longer.

Regenerative braking can continue a very long time, limited only by the battery capacity. It is not subject to friction or wear. If some device was used to dispose of the excess electricity. the regenerative braking system would have no practical limits.

The 2nd model for Tesla Motors is now being developed, it will be a 4 door sedan (code name "Whitestar) which they hope to sell at about $50,000, and the third model (code name "Bluestar) that hopefully will be under $30,000. Any Tesla minivan will be far in the future. Take heart, there will be plenty of competition: Nissan and Mitsubishi have announced plans for EVs. GM, Toyota, Volvo and Fisher have all announced plans to sell plug-in hybrids. All of those should arrive between 2009 and 2014.

The car and the design of all the systems look and seem to function great. My only question is: Are there any plans for a follow-up vehicle that can fit more than one and one half persons? I think that a crossover type vehicle that can seat at least 5 passengers would be the perfect follow-up to the overcompensating sports car model. That would be of most benefit to the new "green wave" and would probably boost even moore the image of Tesla Motors world wide.

What do you say? Need a design? :0)

Ed George

4:17pm | Mai 25, 2008

This car is Beautiful. I would buy it even if it were not electric. I cannot afford $110K for a car, though. A lease program, would help. A 3yr lease, with say $10K down and $750 a month, is in the reach of many.

Brian H

11:43pm | Mai 25, 2008

Nathan;
Whitestar and Bluestar. Sports sedan and family cars.

Mike

1:58pm | Mai 27, 2008

What do Tesla motors think of the new silicon nanowire battery breakthrough? Is this being investigated for future projects? If this really does improve perfornmance by x10 it will dramatically improve range etc...

Dmitry

1:07pm | Juin 1, 2008

The battery is made of 6,831 cells.During the service life some cells can fail and affect the perfomance of the whole battery.How the possible failures can be accomodated within the battery without cells replacement?

What about the other battery technologies? The advanced NiMh cell technology already reached 120 wh/kg and has proven long cycle life.
Zebra (NaNiCl2) technology also has 120 wh/kg in fully packaged battery,almost equal to the current Li-ion Tesla pack.

nonsundflux

1:58pm | Juin 2, 2008

So... How do I go about buying just the ESS & motor with the 2-speed tranny?
I can assume it'd cost a little less than 90 grand, right?

When I saw this story, I imidatly thought of Tesla Motors. The way I understand it, instad of going 250 miles on a charge, you could go 2500 miles on a charge. Or, you could beef up the motor to take a heavier load. Tesla trucks would change the world. I hope someone at the company is reading this.

cameron

12:07pm | Sept. 1, 2008

This is on battery safety (in the event of a crash). I would want the huge mass of the battery to sweep under my feet (not crush me) in the event of a frontal crash. Have your engineers thought of this? Possibly, the batteries could have a "guide," that is, some super tough but light framing of the chassis that prevents them from simply sliding forward into the driver in a high-speed frontal crash.

thanx for listening and the Tesla rocks!!!

Natalia

6:02am | Oct. 14, 2008

Hi Im doing a homework of one of my master class in Mexico, I would like to know the dimension of the EES or if you know the dimension of de entire cell

good to see you are concerned about the battery recycling of the Tesla roadster. But I still wonder why you still allow some landfilling of about 1/3 of the weight of your battery, where Umicore can offer you at very competitive pricing - we pay for them based on official metal values quoted at LME - a full recycling of the battery without any waste, no toxic emissions or effluents , thanks to a two step process - a pyrometalurgical treatment followed by a hydrometallurgical process. Moreover we offer the closed loop approach for the metals such as returning Cobalt and Nickel back to the battery industry undert the form of active cathode materials. People buying a Full Electric car or even and HEV are mostly very environmentally conscious and responsible. We are the only ones offering a fully sustainable development model for battery recycling with a fully operational industrial plant in Sweden, but with battery collection points on all continents - also in the USA. Just remember that whenever you recycle an end-of-life rechargeable battery, one saves 70% on CO2 emissions and 70% on energy consumption for the recycled metals as compared to metals providing from a primary source( from ores or concentrates). Indeed, our "metals mines" are today above the ground.
If ever you are over in Europe, you are mostly welcome to visit our facilities. Wishing you full success. Ghislain

Purnell

2:39am | Mars 20, 2009

I hope you are looking into Aero Gel Super Capacitor to extend the range by have a very lightweight back energy system built into the shell of the car, with the use of Aero Gel Capacitors, for on the spot very fast recharging! Aero Gels can really aid in weight reduction and insulation of the battery packs to reduce heat build up!

If you used Thermocouple to produce electricity in the battery pack that could also recharge the battery a little bit while the car is in operation! You could put billions of probes that are very, very small to both dissipate heat, also at the same time recharge the batteries! Until we learn how to use every type of energy for electricity production we will always have an energy problem, and since cars produce heat we should use the energy source!

Loren Capron

9:29am | Avr. 19, 2009

Additional Electral Production
Should not the solar voltaic enginering people be developing cells that fit the curves of the automobile body, attempt to add pleasing colors and hide the current flow lines leaving the appearance of a standard fiberclass body? That should become as common as starters, radios, and air conditioners in the current day automobiles!

Gene O. Norville

7:05am | Nov. 29, 2009

Dose Teala have plans to build a small car priced $25,000 or less for the average public. Thanks GON

gpanagiotaros

8:12am | Sept. 17, 2010

The idea of having to change baterry from anything between 80,000 to 160,000 kilometers or say anything between 5 to 10 years of use with all what comes in terms of costs, should be normal. It goes without-saying that the best idea is to buy the car and lease the battery on which you should thus have a life guarantee of say 80% on the brand new one's efficiency.

In that way, not only the cost of ownership would be minimised but you could go on keeping the car easily for double the lifespan you would keep a petrol-car while at the same time the leasing scheme of the battery would take care of the recycling of it.

gpanagiotaros

8:28am | Sept. 17, 2010

On the matter of range, I cannot understand where is the problem. Tesla of course specialises in electric-only cars and aims to extend the range by means of improving battery, motors and overall efficiency - which is the way I like! I guess the next target has to be the break-even 500 miles range autonomy with a maximum 20-30 minutes fill-up time to make it playable for even the most reserved drivers who certainly can tolerate 1 20-30 minutes break to fill-up when driving a distance longer than 500 miles.

However, till this breakthrough, solutions exist even today: what prohibits anyone into adding a small petrol (diesel if possible, they are more efficient) generator to recharge the car while it is in motion (the +1500 dollars cost on the car)? A diesel generator working at 1 ideal speed with its efficiency + the excellent efficiency of the electric motor will give you more miles per galon than even the most efficient petrol & diesel cars and that including hybrid cars like Prius (I would easily guess a range of 80mpg). With a normal tank, this should give you at least a 1000 km range while the cost of a petrol/diesel or natural gas generator should be at a fraction of the cost of a motor and takes little space. Biodiesel and natural gas are of course quite environmentally friendly.