The Vermont Review

Saxophonist Greg Osby may be one of the most diverse musicians in jazz today.
During the 1980s he attended Berklee College of Music and then moved to New York
City where he was a key player in the creation of the music collective, M-Base.
Along with pianist Geri Allen, vocalist Cassandra Wilson; trumpeter Graham
Haynes; alto-saxophonist Steve Coleman; trombonist Robin Eubanks, guitarist
Vernon Reid, M-BASE was an organization that had a mission of both musical
creation and education. Over the years, Osby has played with drummer Jack
DeJohnette, guitarist Jim Hall, saxophonist Joe Lovano and pianist Andrew Hill
and also recorded twelve solo albums in the last 12 years – a very impressive
rate of production. Just recently, Osby gained a whole wealth of new fans as he
sat in with Phil Lesh and Friends at a performance in Philadelphia. In addition
to reaching a whole new audience, Osby was also enlightened by the inherent jazz
styling of the Grateful Dead’s music. Osby’s latest effort is the album The
Invisible Hand, which teams Osby with two of his mentors, Jim Hall and
Andrew Hill. Besides standing out as one of the few instances in which these two
venerable players served as sideman, The Invisible Hand sticks out for
its thought provoking and intelligent compositions. The presence of Hill and
Hall is simply a statement to the brilliance of Osby’s composition and
playing. Their decision to sit on the album was not out of reverence to a former
sideman but rather an acknowledgment of a musical genius. The Vermont Review
spoke to Osby in New York City, a city he has called home for eighteen years.

Vermont Review: New York City has deep roots in jazz. Do you feel it?

Greg Osby: No. New York, to me, is primarily a place of commerce. As an
active participant on the music scene………. I feel it's necessary for people
to come here and establish some kind of networking and make business contacts.
Musicians have to project what they want to do; what their aspirations are so
that people will know what their purpose is. Once you do that, it doesn’t
really matter where you live. There's really no active scene here that I can
think of as far as a group of musicians who are trying to do something different
and progressive. I do know of some individuals that continue to work on things.
There's also no real meeting place or a hang out spot where people can go to jam
and exchange information. It is very competitive and people are just trying to
do their thing and find their way.

VR: Do you think there are any of those scenes that you described but
somewhere else?

GO: No. This is the best place to see and hear the best. As far as music
moving forward…everybody is really just trying to make more money. …….The
clubs are just band leaders from letting young people sit in. There is no
"changing of the guard" that takes place. A lot of young talent comes
off the bus every day. I don’t know what to tell them. I don’t know where to
tell them to go. When I came to town in ‘82……..’83, there was a
tremendous amount of jam sessions and spots where you could go and hear cats
killin, and you knew immediately how well you could play or how well you
couldn’t….what you needed to work on. And then you could come back, get
embarrassed and jump start your practice routine. The scene has changed. There
are a lot of musicians now who are the result of institutionalized learning. The
colleges are churning out a higher caliber of musician with regard to dexterity
and instrumental facility. But, with regard to performance skills and social
skills and things like that, there is a lot to be learned. Some things can't be
taught.

VR: So just like sports and politics, jazz music has turned into something
defined by money?

GO: Absolutely. You have a lot of basketball players who forgo college and go
right to the NBA for the money - they have many underdeveloped skills. It is the
same thing with a lot of young jazz musicians – they sometimes get into a
recording contract right out of high school or college. They have not gone on
the road anywhere or even performed for an audience very much, so they haven't
worked out the kinks in their presentation. It takes time to develop. Being a
musician requires much more than developing a lot of chops and memorizing some
patterns.

VR: How was Berklee good for you?

GO: Berklee was good in the sense that there were many good musicians there
to practice and study with. Everyone was hungry, broke, poor and eager to learn.
There were no egos. There was no pretense. It was just ‘I’ll show you this,
you show me that and let's get together and jam all night long or as much as we
possible can! That attitude is necessary during that stage of one's development.
You need to go for it. It was critical. As a school, no school can make you a
better player. If you don’t have the intent and drive to excel, it’s not
going to happen. I don’t care what you do. There were a whole lot of people
there, when I was there, many of which are among today's finest players.

VR: Do you see any of your Berklee classmates?

GO: I hardly see anyone very much. I see people at airports or backstage at
certain concerts all throughout Europe, the United States and Japan. It's
difficult for working musicians to get together casually. Every off day
represents a day without income.

VR: Has there been a person outside of Berklee that has been an important
teacher or mentor for you?

GO: There have been many people. People like Andrew Hill, Muhal Richard
Abrams, Stanley Crouch, Jim Hall, Jack DeJohnette, and many others. I worked
with Jack for six years. Jim for about four years now. Andrew, I have known for
maybe twelve years. They have all been very generous with information and not
selfish. It has been instrumental in my development to get that handed down,
first generation information from those types of people.

VR: Considering two names that you just mentioned – Andrew Hill and Jim
Hall - your new album must be very special to you.

GO: Absolutely. First of all, just to be able to play in that group and be
party to a "one on one, sage, soothsayer, disciple" kind of situation
is great. I have been on the road with them, stayed up all night
long……sometimes we would just sit and talk and I would ask a question and
they would take a hour to answer that one question. With full details and
examples. That is much better than I can get from any biography or embellished
account from someone who heard things conjecturally. Since they are still active
participants on the scene, they've seen the scene change many times and they
actually know the people who've made great contributions to this art.

VR: You were mentioning before that you have younger playing with you. This
album must be a departure with Hill and Hall backing you up?

GO: It is not necessarily a departure because it is out of necessity. It’s
two-fold. I get a lot of younger players because they are bountiful. They are
plentiful. There are a lot of young people without gigs who are proficient
enough to play my music. Secondly, they are eager to be there. They will work on
the material. They won’t rely on their reputation or rest on their laurels.
There a lot of my peers and people who are older who may not be able to handle
it, and you are buying into their reputation as opposed to their actual skill
level. A lot of musicians are too incorrigible. They show up late and are very
undisciplined. They are not respectful of interpreting the music to my taste. It
is frustrating so I get young cats. After all, all of the cats that are great
now, were young cats and unknown at one time too.

VR: Another component of your Invisible Hand band is people from your
M-BASE days. How often do you get together?

GO: It's is difficult to get together because everyone is so concerned with
their own accounts. Cassandra Wilson, Steve Coleman, Geri Allen. They are all
doing their own thing. Terri Lynn moved to LA. Gary Thomas lives in Baltimore.
Kevin Eubanks and Smitty (Marvin "Smitty" Smith) are in L.A. It is
much more difficult for us to get together than when we were all broke and poor,
living in Brooklyn around the corner from one another. We sometimes met twice a
week and talked about content and principles. We exchanged information and lived
vicariously through each other. We did that out of necessity.

VR: Jumping up to pretty recently. How did you meet up with Phil Lesh?

GO: Through my publicist, Brad Reisau. He is a Deadhead - a guy who follows
them (Grateful Dead groups) as a following fan. He’s been telling me about
them for a long time. I was always aware of the music, but I have never been
driven to analyze it and study it further. It took repeated suggestions by
somebody who was emphatic about it. I just went because he was passionate about
it. I respected his opinion and I went. Phil said bring your horn so if you are
inspired to play. I sat in on the sound check to see what was happening. I was
blown away. I dug it. I dug the liberal nature of the improvisation, how they
slowed down and segued from one song to the other. He didn’t talk at all.
There was not a whole lot of public announcement. There wasn’t a lot of
banter. It was really about music, about creation and living for the moment.
Without knowing any of the songs, I just went on and sat in and used my
musicianship to get me through it. It was great,

VR: That is interesting. When I saw you perform as part of the Bell Atlantic
Jazz Fest, one of the things that stuck out was your silent segues from one song
to another.

GO: Right. I have been doing that for a while so checking out Phil doing the
same reaffirmed that I was on the right path. It is really effective and
musicians talking too much between songs has been something that has irked me
for a long time. Musicians sometimes don’t have enough music worked out or
prepared so they stop and waste time telling jokes, dropping anecdotes and
telling about origins of the songs. Stuff that is nonessential, boring and
distracting. Play the music!

VR: Any thoughts of heading into the studio with Phil?

GO: I was thinking about it it. We are talking in terms of trying to develop
a concept, and throwing a few names around. We will just see if our schedules
permit and the desire is there to work creatively. It’s too soon to say but I
am really looking forward to something like that happening. I would like to
involve myself in something that is non-traditional - people who perform like
bona fide jazz musicians and use that environment as a platform for creation.

VR: You now join a rank of jazz saxophonists – Ornette Coleman, Branford
Marsalis and David Murray – who have shared the stage with members of the
Grateful Dead. Do you see a common bond amongst the four of you, besides your
instrument and the idiom that you perform in?

GO: They share an affinity towards liking a broad a range of music and not
limiting themselves to a narrow delineation. Think about the title of jazz.
Jazz, as broad as it is, is definitely reflective of something that historically
has a precedent and a lot of practitioners don’t choose to step outside of
their established parameters. I think that is too limiting.

VR: I am going to name some names of the people. I would love to hear what
you have to say about them.

GO: Like a verbal Rorsasch test.

VR: Kind of. Roscoe Mitchell of the Art Ensemble of Chicago?

GO: Roscoe. Definitely a contributor to the contemporary language. Someone
that a lot of people in my generation need to listen to a lot closely. They need
to analyze him. He is not coming from your typical jazz tradition. Conceptually
speaking, he definitely will always be one of my favorites.

VR: Joe Lovano?

GO: Joe. It is interesting…..Joe has been around for a while. He was one of
the first people that I met when I came to New York. I first started visiting in
1980 and I would come down once or twice a month . Primarily, his main gig was
the Thad Jones-Mel Lewis Orchestra. He was really friendly back than and then
all of sudden, a few years ago, everybody is praising him like the new guy on
the scene, but he has been around for some time. It's like an overnight
sensation that took twenty years. He is a great musician and really open. He is
really into inspiring challenge. If you put him in a situation, he will rise to
the occasion. I love Joe.

VR: Vernon Reid?

GO: Vernon is an old friend. Vernon is one of the original members of one of
our M-BASE groups. I have known him for twenty years. He is an achiever and a
forward thinking man. He won’t allow himself to get bogged down by any
classifications either. He hears music in a very unique way and one day I intend
to do a one on one with him in order to find out the particulars of his method.

VR: Pianist Jason Moran?

GO: Jason is my man. He is a blessing….to me. He is a gift from a higher
power. He is somebody that so much of an old soul that embodies the knowledge
and spirit of many great musicians. It is concentrated. He is a dynamo. However,
there is much more that remains to be seen. His new release is going to be out
in a week and it’s going to really rock the world of creative improvised
music. It stands to redefine the whole institution of the jazz piano trio as we
know it.

.

VR: Jason was part of the New Directions tour. How was that experience?

GO: It was in celebration of Blue Note’s 60th Anniversary. I was
a bit apprehensive to do something like that. I am not really into concoctions
like that. I normally cringe when I see when musicians come out with dedication
recordings "The Music of Gershwin", "The Music of Duke
Ellington". It is really patronizing to me. It’s not really creative.
That’s why I didn’t want to do it. I knew they wanted us to play some stuff
from the Blue Note catalog, so I selected the songs that I thought were better
reflective of forward thinking attitudes. We radically rearranged a lot of the
music. There were still shades of the original compositions but we took them to
another level.

VR: With that in mind, did you play any music by Andrew Hill?

GO: No we didn’t, because I intentionally avoided compositions from the
more cerebral composers –the Wayne Shorters, the Andrew Hills –people like
that. I kept it more to the groove school. That early to mid 1960s soul tappin'
kind of feel. I know that the musicians themselves would bring their own
intellectualism to the music. If you take a Wayne Shorter song, and then you
bring an advanced player to it, it is going to wind up being so abstract that
nobody is going to be able to get with it all. You have to walk the line. The
tour was very successful in that it presented these younger players to an
audience in the US that probably would have never have seen them under normal
circumstances. We played a lot of alternative venues that reflected the
viability of taking this music into places other than jazz clubs. Cigar bars.
Retirement homes. Grunge clubs. Places where you stage dive. It was great. A lot
of the patrons that come into these places regularly came in not knowing that it
was going to be a jazz club. We had people with spiked hair, skateboard rats,
mallrats, college students, and flannel shirts. The whole nine. And they stayed.
And they bought a lot of CDs. It was great. It proved that there is a whole
other market that needs to be acknowledged. The music could be a lot more
popular if people in the record companies simply put on their thinking caps.

VR: Do you go through any meditation or ritual before going on stage?

GO: No. I just go out and play. Each audience is different. No amount of
preparation will prepare you for the response ………or lack of it. Sometimes
you can do all kinds of preparation, go out and people just ignore you anyway.
They talk right through the show, they have their backs turned, guys are hitting
on women, people are drunk, cash registers are ringing, people are dropping
glasses and silverware, people are sawing at steaks and pork chops. You never
know. The best thing that you can do is do the best that you can do.

VR: What are you listening to today?

GO: Well, I will say that there is always a Bjork CD in my player. She is
pretty much my favorite pop artist as far as creativity goes – the sampling,
the noise, distortion, and the arranging.

VR: Were you a fan of the Sugarcubes as well?

GO: Oh yes. I'm also a Sting fan. I really dig Sting. He has a lot of
alternative compositional melodies. He uses different meters and stuff like
that. And a lot of people are surprised to find out that I am a big George
Michael fan. I think he is a great artist -his arranging, his choice of material
and he sings very well. I dig people who put a lot thought into the presentation
of the music and are not so concerned with pandering to the needs of the
executives from their respective companies who demand hits - and not art. I
support people who have a concept that they've worked out. There isn't enough
room here for me to talk about all of the Jazz artists that I am listening to.
There are so many great artists and recordings.