Monday, September 07, 2015

Further on agents at conferences and what to say/not say

In a recent blog post about interacting with agents in social situations, you said that we writers should not mention to agents at conferences that we've queried them and been rejected, even if we mean only nice things by bringing it up.

Does that same rule apply to agents who've passed on the full?

I'll be attending a conference this fall with an agent I've never met before, who last fall read the full of my manuscript and sent me a kind pass. I'd love to introduce myself and express my thanks, and maybe get a sense of whether she'd like to see my next work. Still off limits?

It depends on when and how you are going to interact with AgentKindPass. If you see her casually at the conference (in the elevator, in the breakfast buffet line, after a panel) the social rules outlined in the previous post apply. These kinds of interactions are not biz. They are social.

IF however you have a pitch session or some private one on one time scheduled with her, you DO mention that her kind pass was helpful to you; that you've subsequently written another, better novel, and you look forward to querying her.

Notice you do NOT say "may I query you." If she's closed to queries or doesn't want to hear from you, she'll know how to tell you.

The difference here is the style of the meeting. One is social; one is business.

And while all social meetings have business undertones when you are at an event filled with publishing folks, you don't treat them like business meetings.

Opie-a kind pass? As in more than just a form rejection note. Kudos for getting another work done so that you now have the opportunity to query again. How encouraging.

Janet's distinction is where I'd be in trouble. The difference between social and business . When I'm in a new social setting, I tend to get task-oriented because otherwise I'm tongue-tied and feel awkward. Which means I'd be at risk of either stepping over that line or blending into the wallpaper.

Hm. So whenever I make it to a conference, perhaps I should pluck a drink tray from a waiter and waltz around in that manner? Maybe after I've had a wee splash of whisky. That might make me more graceful and adept.

I'm a big fan of timing and placement at things like this and parties attended by doctors and lawyers. But to worry about the proper framing of an appreciative comment, in a setting where hopeful writers are expected to converse with kind agents seems like micro-etiquette to me.

OP, unless you're planning to become obnoxious on the heels of your gracious comment, and, if you can keep it out of the elevators, I think you'll be fine.

Am I correct by stating a Conference is for gleaning over-all information, and not for conducting personal business? At least all Conferences I have been to for non-literary reasons have been that way.

But for the Literary world, unless there is a pitch set-up or something to the effect, it is the same way?

Having never been to a Writer's Conference *GASP* (listen, I live in the most remote part of Montana where there are only 1700 people in the county, 44 miles of gravel to get to a town of pop. 300 that may or may not have milk/eggs in stock...and I had to kill a baby rattlesnake yesterday by my horse tanks...I digress. Usually.) HOWEVER, after I consider where/what conference I should be going to, anything stand out in mind for what one should do and not do, besides not chase/hound/stalk Agents for book queries?

I am terrible in social sutuations. I fall back to niceties and have to consciously remember to breathe. In the pitch session, I am perfectly comfortable. I don't know why. I was an actress in my youth and it was same thing. On stage I was at home. Backstage, to borrow Lisa's analogy, I faded into the wallpaper.

At last conference I attended, at one of the seminars, the presenter said if an agent rejects your work either query, partial, or full, you may never query or even pitch to them again. i suppose they meant only for the particular book they passed on?

I broke the rules. I sent a badly written, terrible, horrible, no good query to one agent (this was before I came across Janet and her brilliant query seminar). Anyhow, I, of course, got no response. Well, this agent was at the conference I attended, so I pitched to him anyhow. I decided the worst that could happen is he'd call security and have me escorted from the building. He requested a partial with enthusiasm. I said nothing about my previous woefully inadequate query to him. From my research and then meeting him face to face, I think this agent would be a great fit for me. Maybe. I have not heard anything since I submitted my work, but it's only been two weeks. I wonder if I am doomed to kale on this one? Have I committed a terrible writer faux paux?

Very helpful information. Conferences for my day job are quite different, with everyone talking business all the time. It's nice to know that at writing conferences there are occasions when it's perfectly okay to say, "How about that Jack Reacher?".

We as writers do not need their permission or approval to send a query letter.

If you have a new project and you think this agent would be interested, go ahead and send her a query.

Even if you think she wouldn't be interested because she hasn't tweeted about your genre or specifically said in an interview "I love Space Operas!!!", send a query anyway because you never know. The only time not to query is if her website specifically says "I don't rep children's books" and your book is YA. Or if her website mentions she does not rep sci-fi and your book is sci-fi. Then why bother?

So approach AgentKindPass at the writers conference as if it's a given that you are going to send her a query, AND THEN DON'T MENTION THAT QUERY. Instead, introduce yourself. Tell AgentKindPass that you really enjoyed her client Oliva Shimsham's last book and can't wait to read "Rendevous on Carkoon" when it comes out in September. It seems to me that agents really like to talk about their clients. It's like going up to a mom an school and complimenting her child's performance in the last swim meet. And I mean this genuinely. Don't compliment Ms. Shimsham's book if you didn't care for it. What I'm getting at here is this: SHOW THAT YOU ARE A READER. Show this agent that you would be supportive of her other clients. Then when you do send that query, mention that you enjoyed meeting her at Conference X.

If the goal is to tell agent kindpass that you are a worthy author by explaining she requested your full, there are better ways of doing it. Namely, when you query. For now, the goal is to make agent kindpass like you, and that has absolutely nothing to do with writing.

Here's my rule for writers - Act like you're going to be around.

That means don't foam at the mouth. That means confidently say hello and if the conversation goes nowhere, don't give them a card or a copy of your book or slip them a piece of paper with your number, because you'll be seeing them again. Your success will ensure it. There will be other conferences and other opportunities and the world of writing is small, so act like you're a part of it -- namely because you are. For me, I make a sort of game of it. I force others to dig for information. I turn questions around and change the subject because if someone important wants to know, they'll ask. And then it doesn't come out like word vomit.

You - "Excuse me, are you agent nicepass? I'm a fan of your work and your authors work for that matter. I particularly liked "carkooned on carkoon" by that buttonweezer fellow."

Agent Nicepass - "Ah really? So are you a writer too then?"

Now here's the distinction. The word-vomit once-in-a-lifetime-opportunity writer does this

"Why YES, I am a writer. I've written four novels, all mashups between space adventures, elvish cats, and Dino porn! The first one opens on...."

The best response?

"Yes, I am a writer. What books have you been reading lately?"

My point is simple. You answer a question exactly as asked with no more or no less information and you project the confidence of one who is going to be around for a while.

You don't need to prove to agent nicepass that you are wonderful and brilliant just like how you don't propose on a first date. This isn't your first and won't be your last interaction so treat it that way. :)

Jenny C, I Googled Oliva Shimsham and guess what, it brought me right back here, which proves, ah ha, Felix Buttonweazer is having and affair with Oliva. I am appalled and heartbroken.Regards,Betty with2Ts Buttonweazer with 2Ts too.

2NN's: oh, I thought the Shimshams and Buttonweezers were just long time neighbors. Their kids went to prom together.

I'm not sure if/when I'll ever get to a conference, but if I do, I'm going to come back through and read all this etiquette stuff. Some of it seems obvious, some more nuanced, and it's good to bone up on the situationals.

Or, I could remember the advice I received at work this week (stepping into a new position, so being particular about details):

A few weeks ago, I met a former agent intern, who I pitched at a conference many years ago (the agent he'd been interning for hadn't been able to make it, so he had taken her place) and to whom I'd sent a partial. He'd had to pass on it. He also left agenting around that time.

I made the faux pas of saying, "We've met. I pitched you." Then he felt he had to explain why he left agenting at that time, and that he was sorry... and I felt so friggin' sorry that I'd mentioned it. I wanted to drag those few seconds back and relive them, to say something more along the lines of, "We've met. It's nice to see you again."

You know how introverts like to plan out every conversation before it happens? Well, I'd known he was going to be there, but I hadn't planned what I was going to say. So I said the first thing that popped into my mind, and it was the wrong thing.

I still feel bad about that. But he was very kind and understanding, and we got along well for the rest of the weekend.

Another agent I've pitched, I just can't talk to. I mean, he was always my 'dream agent', and I was nervous as all git out before I pitched him. But since then - even when he had my partial, and even after he'd passed on it - I haven't been able to say anything to him. Not his fault at all. Just that little woodland creature inside me grabbing my vocal cords and not letting go.

AJ: As I understand it, most agents do not want any responses to rejections. Just kind of, "It's done now. Let it go."

Lance: If you're talking to other writers, definitely talk about your writing. But it's better to talk about the other's writing. The best way to start up a conversation at a writer's conference is to ask what they write. It gives the other a chance to either expound on a topic they are passionate about, or to say, "I write X. What do you write?" which gives *you* a chance to talk about your writing.

Janice: There's nothing like a writer's conference to bring out the passion of writing in everybody. And it's not just the sessions you go to. It's being surrounded by other people who are just as passionate about writing as you are. At a writer's conference, where you may only know 1% of the people there, you can always talk writing to strangers.

If you're talking to agents or editors, you want remember that they may or may not be as passionate about writing. But, since they know writers so well, they will often ask writers what they write. And that opens the door to talk about it. I'd had a pitch appointment one morning with an editor. At lunch, it turned out that editor was sitting at my table (they do one lunch per year where the presenters will sit at tables with writers). I - as usual - was a little shy, but the editor got into a conversation with a fellow sitting next to her. She asked for a full, and by the following year, he had a contract with her publishing house.

And at the conferences I've been to, there are sometimes donuts. There are sometimes drinks. And there are always writers whose passion you can just drink right in to fuel your own.

EM: No, you haven't committed a faux pas at all. If the agent hasn't already read part of your novel, then it's totally new to him. A query letter is like a television commercial: chances are - unless it's a REAL stinker - a bad one won't be remembered. A pitch session is like one of those sample kiosks in the grocery store. The seller (you) has a chance to speak to the buyer in person, answer questions, and give the buyer a tantalizing taste. While you might forget the commercial, you'll remember how that morsel tasted.

Note: You said you sent a query letter. You didn't mention sending pages or chapters. If the agent *has* read the beginning of your novel, and if it hasn't been rewritten a lot, it will probably be remembered. In that case, you might want to mention something about it when you send it again.

Brian: Your example is great for how to approach an agent, but I've never known an agent at a writers conference to ask, "Are you a writer?" I think it can be assumed. If they want to talk about business, they will ask, "What do you write?" Which is definitely an invitation to talk about your work. If they don't want to talk about it right then, they'll more likely start with "Where are you from?" or "Are you enjoying the conference?" or "Where are the bathrooms?"

Agents know writers. And any agent who's been to one or more conferences will know how to speak to them. Agents know how to lead a conversation. Writers can learn how to follow an agent's lead. Let the agent talk business first. And if the agent doesn't talk business, then the wise writer follows the agent's lead. "I'm from Saskatchewan, which is north of North Dakota. I love this conference - there's so much to learn! The bathrooms are at the back of the room to your left. You can't miss them."

I know. It's all well and good to talk about how to speak to agents, and - as seen by my story above - it doesn't always work that way. But I think writers can be less stressed out if they just keep in mind to follow the agent's lead in a conversation. I hope my faux pas helps others.

I imagine agents go to conferences for business. Mainly. If you want to talk business, sign up for a session with the agent. Don't skimp the expense and stalk them in the elevator.

Friends of mine, not writers or lit agents, go to conferences for business and tell me some of the best stuff happens in the bar.

Brian has great advice. Don't foam at the mouth. No one wants rabies. Not everyone can sing and ooze confidence on stage like he. (I've only seen his videos). I can talk to almost any one, but I've clammed up and foamed at the mouth with literary agents. You are like demi-goddesses. It seems lit agents surpass the writers they represent, in awesomeness.

My dream is to go to the US writer conferences. But in Spring, Christopher Vogler is coming here. I'm saving to attend his 3 day seminar.

To the original questioner. Congratulations on having a full and going to a conference. Well done. You've already beat the odds. Now, push on through to the end.

A.J.

"Did you send a thank-you after the fact? Actually, is that the done thing? I've not been in the position of subbing a full but I would think a thank you would be polite. Yes? No?"

I don't and it irks my southern soul. However, I've seen enough agents mention they appreciate a kind thank you, but it tends to clog an already congested inbox.

Lisa,

At most conferences you're going to be so busy you won't have time to worry about being socially inept. The organizers will probably seat you with interesting people, including publishing professionals, at meals. You'll most likely hit it off with a fellow writer or ten.

My approach to interaction with agents in the wild is to pretend I don't know they're agents. I've already studied every agent and editor attending thoroughly, but when I see them in the wild I treat them like just another person. Offer to buy them a drink. The flip side of that is, if I attended a workshop of theirs, I might mention how much I enjoyed it and I particularly found ABC interesting.

Susan,

" in a setting where hopeful writers are expected to converse with kind agents seems like micro-etiquette to me."

You've flown in to do a conference and are still a bit laggy from travel, nevertheless, you pop up bright and early and paint your best boy-am-I-glad-to-be-here smile on and attack the day. You see fellow agents or editors you haven't seen for a long time and visit a bit with them while you eat.

A writer comes up while you're visiting to thank you for a polite rejection or to ask you a question about what you're looking for right now because they may have the perfect book for you.

On to the panels. Everyone seems to be having a good time, but it's still work. Pitch sessions. Lunch! Yay! People visit and ask again about publishing if you are seated with writers. Maybe someone thanks you for a polite rejection or they snipe at you that you rejected them and how wrong you were.

Afternoon sessions. Dinner. Rinse and repeat. Yay! Two minutes to yourself to unwind. "Hi, my name is Julie Weathers. You sent me an awesome rejection on my epic fantasy. I just wanted to thank you for being so nice."

Gut wrench. I guess I have to talk about writing instead of relaxing for a few minutes.

Janice,

Writers' conferences are often set up with pitch sessions and are a lot more personal than other conferences. You learn, but a big part is also meeting new people and perhaps getting an opportunity to interact one on one with agents and editors.

Kari Lynn Dell lives on a remote ranch out of Cut Bank. She just got back from the RWA conference in Dallas and was my roommate at the Rocky Mountain conference in Denver.

Don't let distance from an airport slow you down. You've already said you go to other conferences.

E.M.

"the presenter said if an agent rejects your work either query, partial, or full, you may never query or even pitch to them again."

The presenter was either wrong or didn't clarify. Once you've queried a project and received a no, don't pitch that project again unless invited to. IE they make some comments on ways it could be improved and say they would look at it again. If you have a new project, you have a blank slate assuming you were professional in your first contact and didn't threaten them with king cobras in their bed.

Janice: I didn't mention this earlier (half-asleep), but Montana is right underneath Alberta, Canada. Every August, there is a large writer's conference in Calgary Alberta called When Words Collide. This year was the first year I went to that conference, and I was surprised to find just how large it actually was - more than 600 writers attended.

There was a LOT to learn, and lots of cool people to meet. You might be interested in checking it out. It's within driving distance for you.

A lot of it is for genre writing (which included mysteries and thrillers this year, as well as science fiction, fantasy, and horror), but there is a lot for general writing, too. And the conference itself only costs about $45-55 Canadian (it would be less than that in American dollars). It doesn't include food or hotel though.

I'll probably be there next year. A writer I met on a book tour a decade ago will be there, and I told him I'd probably see him there. Plus my writer's group in town is always very excited about it, and I had a good time there this year. We drove the 8 hours from Regina to Calgary.

In other news, I won't be attending Surrey this year. I'm bummed. Not only will I miss meeting up with the crew )one is flying in from Switzerland so how often would I see her?), but I'll miss the learning opportunities and the magic. I always come away from conferences pumped up and faunching at the bit to write.

There are always the tangibles of a writing conference: meeting agents, workshops, meeting other writers, improving your writing. There is also the incorporeal. It's that renewal of the writing spirit. Conferences are a great way to charge your writing batteries. If you have a chance to go to one, do it. Writing is more than putting words in the right order, it's also bleeding your soul onto the page. You need these times to renew yourself.

Having never been to a writing conference, I don't have much to contribute from experience. Okay, I don't have ANYTHING to contribute from experience because I have no experience of writing conferences. That's something I hope to rectify one day when Available Time and Available Money find themselves in the same room.

However, from this and previous posts, and the comments therein, I deduce a theme: Don't be the obnoxious salesman. Be your nicest self at all times. Be polite, courteous, and memorable for all the right reasons. Don't be the one who's remembered because all s/he did was blather on about themselves and how brilliant a writer they are.

We met at the Awesome Writer Conference and I told you about my novel...

And Suzie says to herself, "Yeah, I remember. That bleedin' novel was ALL you talked about. You bored me then, and no doubt you'll bore me still." FORM REJECTION.

Contrast with this:

Dear Suzie,

I was very excited to meet you at the Awesome Writing Conference. You may not remember me, but I'll never forget your totally cool shoes!...

And Agent Suzie thinks, "Mmmm... no, I'm sorry, I can't say I do remember you--I met a lot of people. But you must have been one of the nice ones. Sounds like someone I'd like to know. Let's see what her book's about. I hope it's something I'll want to read..."

Maybe I'm crazy, but even if you don't stand out at the conference, as 2Ns said, polite and courteous always wins. Sure, be prepared to talk about your work, but don't make it all about you.

2Ns- Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions. Yes, I saw Olivia and Felix chugging Leinenkugel's Honey Weiss and munching on cheese curds at that writer's conference in Appleton but that doesn't have to mean anything. They're just old friends from the query trenches.

All this is an excellent reminder on how to behave (and not behave) at conferences. I am heading off in 3 weeks to the Nevada SCBWI conference, which is part of a 3 day mentorship program kick-off. I am very happy to say that I was accepted into the program to work on my middle grade graphic novel. Huzzah! We will then work via email/snail mail with our mentor for the next 6 months, with another 3 day retreat at the end.

I am reminded of a discussion about relative costs for various learning opportunities. This one is a little beyond my comfort zone, but decided that it is worth the gamble. It is a small group: 9 mentors and about 22 of us mentees, so a good ratio. Hopefully I will have a publishable GN at the end of all this.

But back to the discussion at hand, maybe I will write a little note on a card to remind myself to smile, be nice and forgo the word vomit. All good advice in the comments above. I would hate to be exiled to Carkoon, as I really am not crazy about kale. A little goes a long way.

AJ - I've been told to NEVER EVER reply to a rejecting agent because they hate it and it clogs their inbox, etc etc. But... politeness is too ingrained. When an agent read my full, and took the time to give me kind and detailed feedback on why they were passing, I just couldn't bring myself to say nothing. So I always replied to helpful feedback, just with a quick note saying I really appreciated them providing comments and taking the time. The first time I did it I was so nervous thinking I was maybe doing the wrong thing, but the agent wrote straight back with an even nicer second note telling me he really wanted me to sub to him again, and to do so even if his website said he was closed. (Which I would never have dared to do otherwise).

Ultimately though, what's the worst thing that can happen? They briefly think oh, great, another email, hit delete. They're not going to blacklist you for future books because you sent a polite thank you note. Whoa, that AJ, too courteous. Make sure I never represent HER or I'll be receiving a friendly Christmas card once a year before I know it! *grin*

It helps me to imagine a different profession. Say you're at a party and don't know many people there, but you know one of those people is a plumber. And you've been having some trouble with your plumbing. It's not tough to imagine that going up to her and describing your problem and asking for her help would be a pretty big social faux pas. Instead, maybe you'd talk to her and get a better sense of who she is and how she'd be to work with. And then perhaps in a day or two you'd contact her, during her work hours, and mention you met at the party and say you'd like to hire her to fix your plumbing.

Why does that sound dirty, all of a sudden? *sigh* My poor brain is never far from the gutter.

It's not that hard to figure out, really. No one wants to talk about work when they're not working. And if they do, they'll let you know.

BJ, Julie and Sam... thanks for the info. Like Sam and Julie my need to use my manners is very deeply ingrained. But I get the whole 'clogging the inbox' deal. Might stick this in worry about it when I need to box.

KDJames - Actually...I once spent a half an hour extra with my Gynecologist in his office discussing how to treat a burgeoning mountain pine beetle infestation in his trees at his mountain cabin...in a hospital gown. Forestry out of its element and at its finest under pressure. So yes, I can totally understand the need for Literary Professionals to attend a Writer conference without being pressured... literally :D

BJMountain, Julie W. Brian, Sam, and others! - Thank you for the generous feedback - this is exactly what kind information we can use along with JR's! The format of a basic Writers Conference sounds very welcoming - encouraging and strengthening the writing community as its main commitment? And even though we may not have completed work to query, we can still benefit from certain types of conferences. And do not prompt nor query unless specifically asked to when at a conference!

Julie W. - Please take this in the manner that it wishes to be delivered (in a excited good way! which still doesnt sound right, but I mean well...!) - YOU SLEPT WITH Kari Lynn Dell? I love her writing style! What fun conversations you two must have had with your Rodeo/writing experiences and hers! We follow her blog and just read her latest- a novella on wattpad...

BJMountain - I like the idea of going to a destination conference (although I dont have much choice :D) it sounds like the one in Calgary is very large! Did you find yourself overwhelmed because of it or did you feel like you did have time to take it all in and benefit from it? (and btw I like donuts AND drinks...)

Panda in Chief - Looking for an update after you get back - that sounds intriguing - a conference with a mentoring program to help you finish a novel!

Jenny - Or was it Leinies Summer Shandy with a slice of lemon ;)

And Opie - Good luck and have fun, would love to hear the outcome after the conference if at all possible!

Janice: will do.And as for the thank you note thing, I know it's just one more email in the inbox, but if they say anything at all personal or wncouraging I usually send a very (VERY) brief one, or at the most two sentence thank you email. I'm polite. So sue me. I loved Sam's comment on this topic.

I've been to several conferences, so I didn't find the Calgary one all that overwhelming. The first conference I went to (in Surrey BC) felt like a bit much, but I didn't know anyone there and I had a migraine all weekend. After that, I always knew someone... and then I met some lovely folks who are now critique partners. We share a room.

I think it really does help to know someone, and if you're interested, I'll be going next year. I know conferences, and I now know this conference, and I'm always up for an extra roommate or two (anything to make a conference more affordable!) I went with my writers' group from Regina, so if we meet up at the conference, you'll be able to meet a few friends to help you out.

At a large conference, I find it helps to know where I want to go beforehand. I'll pick out my choices for panels the night before or the morning of. If there's a time when I'm not really keen on a panel, I might just take that time to sit for a bit, maybe go back to the room, and have a rest or a snack or something. This is also useful to do if you are feeling a bit overwhelmed.

In the realm of destination conferneces, just saw that there is an intensive writing workshop in Langley, WA, on Whidbey Island. I don't know the quality of the teaching, other than writer and agent Andrea Hurst, but is is my backyard, not so metaphorically speaking, and I can twll you it's a really lovely place to visit. Sorry I don't have the link handy, but probably if you searched for "Andrea Hurst" writing workshops you would find it. It is a little on the pricey side ,esp. Since it does not include food or lodging, that I could see.

If any of you Reiders decide to go to this conf, let me know and we can go have a beer and say nice things about Janet.

Also, a belated thanks to Colin for adding me to the list of repeat offender blogs! Bring on the kale!

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I'm a literary agent in NYC. I specialize in crime fiction and narrative non-fiction (history and biography.) I'll be glad to receive a query letter from you; guidelines to help you decide if I'm looking for what you write are below.
There are several posts labelled "query pitfalls" and "annoy me" that may help you avoid some common mistakes when querying.