Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #151 - 10/04/11 at 21:12:34

Gopher,

Having spent a fair bit of time with NOS RCA-GBs (straight, fat bottle) 5U4Gs, I think I can say that they would likely bring a "splash of seduction" to your Torii. I found some tall bottle ones labeled Sylvania, and some short bottle RCA label on ebay for 25 and 40 (shipped) and both seem to bring texture and open freshness to the midranges and more deep bass compared to the more "liquid" RCA 5U4G-STs. In my system/room, I actually had to slightly EQ out some bass (a very nice, and good sounding refinement feature of the Pure Music software player) and once done, these tubes have become a favorite for me. But I have a history of low bass issues with my Torii in this room.

Anyway, if your low bass is better controlled than mine, you might really like them???

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #153 - 10/19/11 at 06:49:02

I had a hard time falling asleep this evening, and my girlfriend is at her house tonight, so I started futzing with the stereo and figured out how to add the CSP2 back in using an antique cherry end table that was my late wife's grandmother's, and a Mapleshade platform. I've got 6N2Ps in the CSP2 and one of my spare pair of RCA 5U4G rectifiers and I'm so far enjoying the added bit of warmth and dimensionality the CSP2 always delivers. It's a bit awkward to adjust (the table is behind the Samson rack and the TV stand) and I will have to work on footers, but I think this is going to be a nice setup at least for a while til I can afford another Samson rack, which I think is the ultimate solution to my situation.

It's all just warming up and getting good sound, I'm going to enjoy this tomorrow as it settles in. Thank goodness for music. It sustains a large portion of my consciousness these days.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #156 - 10/20/11 at 16:08:10

Well, it was a fun experiment. . . but I've come to the conclusion that there are too many variables that I keep playing with, and that the PerfectWave DAC directly into the Torii is as good sounding. . . if not possibly a bit clearer sounding. I CAN get a bit of a more dynamic presentation with the CSP2 and a lot of dialing in, but there's a cohesiveness to the direct sound without the CSP2 that I think I prefer (although it may be that I have become so used to and happy with it I don't want to settle into a new sound). I've taken the CSP2 out.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #157 - 11/02/11 at 07:24:21

Lon, you still have the CSP2 out of the loop with your Perfect Wave DAC?I also have a PW DAC and leave it at 100% output to the CSP2 and then to my Torii MKII. I kinda like fiddling with the CSP2 levels and the Torii levels to achieve slightly different results.

Think I will run the PW DAC direct for a few days though to experience the sound. I know PSAudio recommends no preamp.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #158 - 11/02/11 at 12:08:45

I took the CSP2 out. I didn't feel it was adding enough to warrant the eventual cost of another excellent power cord, etc. And with it in the system I had a hum to chase down again and after months of hum-free I just didn't feel I had the will power to do so. Anyway, I found I could accomplish most of what I could with the CSP2 by altering the input gain on the Torii and the output of the PerfectWave DAC. And the DAC sounds so so good straight in, I've just left it like that. In fact, I'm probably going to sell the CSP2 so it doesn't spend months and months on a shelf again. My other system sounds great with a ZBox (mine has two inputs) going into the Torii Mk II, and I really don't need the CSP2 any longer.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #159 - 12/19/11 at 00:11:51

I have tried the PWDAC both through my Ultra and straight into the Torii. Sounds great both ways. The PWDAC is very good as a preamp. But I like the flexibility of the Ultra, and I am about to start taking more advantage of its tube rolling.

Having said that, I think if I was only driving two channels, I would be very inclined to run the PWDAC straight to the Torii. And the reports of the PWDAC upgrade suggest even greater dynamics, along with the balance adjustability, making it even more suited to being its own preamp.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #160 - 12/19/11 at 01:23:04

I want you to keep your impressions of the upgrade to yourself when you form them. I don't want the temptation to upgrade! Just kidding.

I'm now using the CSP2 in the bedroom system, and just sold the ZBOX I was using there. I just had to put the CSP2 to use, and it sounds great in that system now that my DEC685 is being used as the source again. The ZBOX was going to be sitting on the shelf. I actually feel quite happy having sold the components I have the last few months, they're in use and they're enjoyed and they're not just holed away and MAYBE going to be used.

I think ultimately I'd love to have the new version of the CSP2 to use in my main system, and if I get in a money-making situation again I'll buy a second Samson rack, another PS Audio PerfectWave AC12 power cord and I know I would be very very happy. But the PerfectWave DAC is a very satisfying preamp in my system, and man I love the sound.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #162 - 12/19/11 at 08:14:15

Hey guys, My new Torii is on the way and I should have her by the end of the week. I wanted to take a survey and was hoping all of you pros out there would chime in. As I'm good friends with Gopher, I hope he doesn't mind the hi-jack, but the topic is the same so I thought we could keep the ball rolling so to speak . So if you could all chime in, I think this would help me make some choices:1. What is your favorite tube combination (not just favorite at each position, but synergistic favorites)?2. What kind of music do you prefer?3. Do you prefer detail over musicality....i.e. would you rather hear every detail imaginable at the expense of fatiguability, ear bleeding, etc?4. Does your room tend to be highly reflective, moderately reflective, or is it treated to the max?5. Do you use a pre-amp and if so which one? 6. What speakers do you have?

Thanks for humoring me here, but without knowing these answers above, it doesn't help so much. Currently I have a bright tweeter in a highly reflective room that I am trying to either tame or replace the speaker. 2. I listen to all music, from rock to jazz and electronica. I would like a tube combination that works well in all these settings. 3. I prefer musicality, meaning i want to hear amazing dynamics, coherence, tonality, timbre etc and detail is much less important. Listening fatigue is my enemy! Lol4. I have a highly reflective room with no treatment. 5. I have a Modwright Pre and also coming this week, a 2nd generation Dodd Battery Pre-amp. 6. My speakers are Zu Omen Def and soon (early next week) Tekton Pendragons.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #163 - 12/19/11 at 11:11:44

Morgan:

Happy to chime in here, though I will observe at the outset that there are so many variables at work that you may still have some difficulty teasing out any meaningful commonalities. But I am game.

1. For tubes in the Toriis, I currently run Ediswann 6922 inputs, Shuguang Treasure 6CA7 outputs, RCA rectifiers and Raytheon regulators. I love this combo, but I will be shortly trying out Amperex 7308 PQ valves for inputs. All tubes except for the Treasures are NOS. I have some early 1970s Voskhods to try in both the Toriis and Ultra as well. On first test listen, those were quite nice.2. All types, even some high energy hip hop in small doses. My preferences are for classic rock, large scale classical, e.g., Verdi's Requiem, jazz, fusion, the AIX Acoustica series, good live recordings of all types. For accuracy and tonality, I will turn to the Telarc John O'Conor Beethoven Piano Concertos and the Stereophile Robert Silverman Variations. Sublime. 3. I am all about the music, but I believe that detail and soundstage are very important to musicality. I value micro dynamics and air that contribute to tonal accuracy. But I don't want the music to sound clinical. Precision in instrument and voice location is very important to me. I can listen to this rig for hours in end without fatigue. 4. Room: I have a mix of a very open room with odd asymmetrical angles, large absorptive furniture, partially reflective walls, and a large plasma display. There is a fair bit of window in the room, but with thermal and acoustic treatments. Overally, somewhat on the reflective side. 5. Preamp: yes, the Decware Ultra running National NOS 6922 valves, an RCA NOS 1964 black plate 54UG big bottle rectifier, and 0B3 regulators, if memory serves. The Nationals are about to be replaced with Siemens Halske 1960s NOS EC88 valves. 6. Speakers: 6 ERRs in a 5.0 configuration. Two of them serve as a center channel speaker with the ribbon tweeters directed at the plasma screen. They are powered by a Decware SE84ZS running in mono. Bob is working Ina pair of Deathbix DBK212 subs to match the ERRs. They will be sloped in by a Paradigm X-30 and powered by a modified Carver M1.5T. 7. I don't think you asked about sources, but primarily my PS Audio PerfectWave DAC w/ Bridge pulling files from an NAS or Mac mini running eLyric Music Manager, all files AIFF. My transport is an Oppo BDP-95, but I may add a PE Transport just for two channel discs. As good as the Oop and its DAC are, they are no match for the PWDAC. 8. You didn't ask about power, but I have two PS Audio Power Plant Premier units connected to the Power Port receptacle. All cords are either Decware power cords or PS Audio Statements.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #164 - 12/19/11 at 13:06:54

Hey Morgan, I'll contribute though I will echo that direct correlations are difficult; rooms and personal sonic tastes are huge factors.

Also, with the exception of the Ruby rectifiers (I've never been a fan, I pluck them out immediately) I think that the stock tube configuration is very good and I'd recommend spending time with that set up to see how the factory voicing is. . . .

1. For tubes in the Toriis, I currently run cryo'd 'seventies 6N1P for inputs, JJ 6CA7 or Winged C EL34 for outputs, RCA rectifiers (sixties I think) and the Raytheon regulators supplied (will eventually find something else to try).

2. I enjoy all types of music I guess, with my heart really being with jazz, blues and soul. I've been exploring classical music the last few years.

3. Musicality is the thing for me. I have a huge collection of recordings and I don't buy recordings that sound good exclusively. My goal, my search is to find a system that allows me to enjoy all the recordings. No easy feat. I'm getting there. . . .

5. In this system I most of the time did not use a preamp with the Torii, but I know use the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC as a preamp, and I usually have it set at 65 and up and the Torii volume all the way up. Get the clearest sound that way.

6. Half of this year I've been using ERRs and love them. A great match for the Torii! I've been hooked on the Decware Radial speakers and now can't imagine listening to another speaker type.

Like Greg I've been using PS Audio power items, I have one Power Plant Premier, and I have the PS Audio PerfectWave AC12 power cords on the PerfectWave DAC and PerfectWave Transport, and the Premier and the Torii, and I have PS Audio Premier SC cords on the TV and my Sony BDP-S5000ES Blu-ray player, and a PS Audio Statement feeding my DVR. I think power treatment and interconnect and speaker wire choice is important for a system and will determine many factors including accuracy of tonality and soundstage and imaging. I use Decware interconnects and speaker wire, and am very happy with them (though they take freaking long times to break in!)

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #165 - 12/19/11 at 14:19:36

What Lon said:Quote:

Also, with the exception of the Ruby rectifiers (I've never been a fan, I pluck them out immediately) I think that the stock tube configuration is very good and I'd recommend spending time with that set up to see how the factory voicing is. . . .

I completely agree. But in the interest of disclosure, and "do as I say, not as I do," I should note that I ordered my Ultra without tubes, and so cannot speak to the factory voicing. Further, on my Toriis, I immediately installed the Shuguang Treasures and the NOS RCA rectifiers. I tried some NOS Svetlanas as well, but came back to the RCAs.

One other point of note: a few weeks/months ago, there were several posts suggesting that the JJ 6CA7 valves outperformed the JJ EL34 (I think I have this right), and as I recall, Steve tried them out, concurred, and announced that the Torii would henceforth ship with the 6CA7 valves. I haven't kept up with that discussion, and I don't know if Steve has stuck by that decision, but I do know the forum posts were not unanimous on this point.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #166 - 12/19/11 at 14:30:41

Right, there's a thread on the new JJ tubes. I think as the Winged Cs became harder and costlier to find, he moved to JJ EL34 and then to the JJ 6CA7. I've used all three of these tube types and I'm warming up to the JJ 6CA7s, they have a different presentation that takes a while for me to get used to, but they're very good tubes. Stevef says they're the most neutral he's heard in this tube type. I still feel they're a bit on the warm side of neutral, and the Winged Cs that I'm so used to may be on the lean side of neutral, and that spread to the other side of neutral is important. I've been alternating between the Cs and the JJs and am more and more letting the JJs stay in as they're cheaper and easier to find and I'm liking them more with a lot of the music I'm listening to a lot lately (jazz and classical). If these come stock in your machine Morgan know that they're very good.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #167 - 12/19/11 at 14:44:34

I went out to the garage and checked, and confirmed that I had ordered two quads of the JJ 6CA7 as part of my "legacy tube inventory." After I am dead and burned, I want my wife and kids to to know exactly how to keep this equipment running for as many years as they care to. So, I have written detailed instructions, and stocked—or have a goal to stock—50,000 hours of tube for each socket.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #168 - 12/19/11 at 16:38:51

I am now listening to a pair of Mullard 6DJ8's. Mid sixties Blackburns I believe. I have never know another tube in any applications that went through more wide swings in sound and tonality before burning in. There was a clarity that once heard is hard to do without but everything I loved about listening was shot for two weeks. I started turning on the Torii and going downstairs and watching TV. I even posted in the general discussions about thinking the Christmas tree was screwing up my sound. Well the tree is still there and as I write Joni Mitchell and the LA Express is performing live in my living room and my sound is again great throughout the whole house. The Mullards have a roundness of tone and top to bottom even tonality that have never been duplicated here, so much so that I did not seem it could have been possible. I have lived with music for over 35 years and it never sounded so good. A testament for sure to the Mullards but no doubt to the Torii III in the long run.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #169 - 12/19/11 at 22:55:38

Morgan

I like a lot of music too, though I tend to listen most to jazz either from, or based in the more lyrical stuff from the 50s/60s along with a fair bit of EMI stuff; bosa nova and women singers from Peru, Brazil, and Colombia; simple early classical like Jordi Savall, and the many interpretations of Bach violin and cello; folk music from around the world, rock from The Band and Young to Morphine and Massive Attack........

My room is treated but still live which I like for the most part, contributing to the live player in the room feel.

I can't separate detail from musicality, finding them part and parcel of an enjoyable musical experience. Micro detail contributing to subtleties of texture and air.... macro helping define the instrument sound and place in space.....individual character and focus. And the combo giving us all that other cool stuff like ambience conveyed from the recording to my room, the finger hit part on a classical guitar or bass string, or hand drum, the dynamic and varied vibrations of a cymbal and so on......

Sound stage is really important to me too, but I don't sacrifice musicality for detail, playing within the balance that makes it all sound like real music is my goal. Does the bass have articulate deep vibes that you feel? And is the sound of the wood there, the space between the wood....the bow hair or finger on string.... or the subtle string hits on the neck; the sax with air and brass hitting you in the low gut.....but also the key sounds and the subtle sounds of the reeds; each of the drums like real drums in the room, the locations clear but expressing all the character of the wood, head, hand/stick and air. Seems like this is the game to me, and requires a balance of detail, warmth, body, depth, weight, and dynamics.

I agree that with the level of revelation this gear brings, the choices we make for cables, front end, feet, weights, spikes and all have a big impact for me, and play bigtime into the sound equation.

My main music is AIFF files via PureMusic played from a tricked out 2010 Mac Mini, to a Tranquility DAC with an amazing new output stage, and the Torii into Ziegler HR-ONEs (radial front firing hybrid). No Pre.

I can't say how this stuff compares to your room, speakers or front end. For me, I get listening fatigue if the low bass is too heavy, likely contributed to by remaining room stuff. So my preferences go to the resolving side of things, but without hardness. I would say I like warmth, but seek balance, neutrality and definition for a sound that seems natural to me.

I have a hard time saying which tubes are my favorite as there are so many ways to find synergy, and I have a lot of tubes to play with at this point from steady exploration.

Right now I am using RCA OC2 (a touch more transparent to me than Raytheon), 80's Sylvania OA3-ST (less "warm" and in my system/room, more neutral than early STs) Cryo'd Ruby fat bottle EL-34 (from Cryoset...though a little less texture than Winged-C, a similar fresh and open midrange, but better bass definition...Also similar balance as JJ 6AC7, but not as dark and dense) early 50s RCA 5U4GB (interesting straight/tall bottles with internal construction similar to RCA 5U4G STs, no bottom mica and a lot of glass there...very real sounding tube to me) and like Walt, I am currently enjoying some Mullard ECC88/6DJ8s. Mine are pulls/used so I did not suffer any burnin with them. They are Blackburn A-frames looking like 60s or 70s and for a warm tube, seem nicely balanced to me with excellent articulation and inner detail.

So I have segued away from stock altogether. Edit:My stock tubes were Raytheon OC2, early RCA OA3-ST, Ruby 5U4G-ST, Winged C EL34, and 6N1Ps. Once you get your sound sorted out, it is easier to point more toward tubes that might help accomplish your taste goals from within the context of your system/room, and by comparing the sound quality between different tubes. Those 6AC7s are real slow burners too! They will keep coming out for 120-150 hours if they are like my set. But you will be wading through caps and wire burnin too, so it will all work out.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #170 - 12/19/11 at 23:12:08

Lovely detail here Will, and I completely agree with your assessments of the interrelationship between detail, musicality, soundstage, SQ, etc. It is the music that matters, not any one isolated characteristic of it.

And thanks for reminding me about the RCA 0C2 tubes. I have them and don't believe I have tried them.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #171 - 12/19/11 at 23:38:49

Hey Greg,

Yes, the music! I find it so interesting coaxing out the best experience my system/room can provide. The combination of being totally amazed by and sucked into the music while exploring fun and varied ways to experience it is a real pleasure to me. And as I have said before on here, I really love shaking up the tube set to find different, but equally good synergy, shifting the music enough to make it fresher!

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #172 - 12/20/11 at 04:59:32

"I went out to the garage and checked, and confirmed that I had ordered two quads of the JJ 6CA7 as part of my "legacy tube inventory." After I am dead and burned, I want my wife and kids to to know exactly how to keep this equipment running for as many years as they care to. So, I have written detailed instructions, and stocked—or have a goal to stock—50,000 hours of tube for each socket."

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #173 - 12/20/11 at 05:11:53

Thanks so much for all the information guys. I think that I have found a group with similar tastes to my own and it is good to hear that most of you have similar goals and somewhat similar equipment.

I have already bought and received a quad of BT Output tubes as the deal was too good to resist and I own a lot of 5U4,s including a pair of Mullards so I will likely give those a try to start. However I may leave it at that and see how things progress goong forward.

I too have a Tranquility SE, with the new Output stage and it is phenomenal coming out of a Mac Mini.

I will break the amp in on my Zu's and then I will get the chance to run up a few hundred more hours on my new Pendragons. I prefer to break them all in at once it seems ;).

Any more thoughts and opinions are all appreciated. This is what makes the hobby so fun. And me as a relative newbie, has tons to learn!

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #174 - 12/20/11 at 15:15:08

Will, your reference to the 5U4GB caught my eye, and I couldn't quite remember why. I have all coke bottle style rectifiers in my amps, mostly RCA, but a Mullard in my Taboo right now. I believe Lon has a preference for the straight-sided recrifiers, but i like curves.

Anyway this week, I came across a couple of 1950s RCA NOS 5U4GB black plate D-getter rectifiers, and I just had to get them. Why? Well, they are RCA, but they are labeled on the base "HAMMOND," which happens to be my surname. And so I have completed the "vanity personalization" of my Toriis. ;D

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #175 - 12/20/11 at 17:27:39

Hey Greg,

Yes I like the curves too! But my amp is in a cabinet, so the look is less important and I have come to like the look of the tall straights too. After I figured out the "5U4G" that Lon liked so much was GB, I wanted to check them out. I always thought he was referring to STs since the Torii comes with STs and since tube selling guys seem to tend to prefer them over 5U4GB for Audiophile applications.

So I got a pair of cheap, short bottle RCA 5U4GB black plates with a top/side hallow getter off Ebay to check out, and liked them....compared to my favorite RCA made 5U4G-ST (I think 40's... with the wires running up between the plates) a bit more spacious, a bit more textural, and showing nicely in the bass presentation though just a little dark and wooly in the bass for my tastes. This spacious texture and for the most part, seductive bass, made the tube type worth exploring for me.

So I went on a binge and ordered several pair of varied construction 5U4GBs off Ebay, this time all tall bottles on the hunch that they might be more spacious and open....less confined in the bass. Surprisingly, this was the case with all I got, and I really like them all, the variations between them making for some interesting tuning possibilities with other tubes. It is very interesting how many getter variations there are.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #176 - 12/20/11 at 17:34:23

In my defense the pair I have nowhere have a "B" imprinted on them, just "G." Great tubes. Glad you found some to like. I have another vintage RCA pair with the "B" that are good. . . but I like them less, a bit more "sterile" sounding (kiss of death for me and tubes). Probably should look for some more. . . before you guys buy them all up.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #177 - 12/20/11 at 18:11:28

Hey Lon, No defense necessary...my assumptions were off. And like your GBs, the STs I like best just have 5U4G on them too. But it is good to have figured it out since the bottle type does offer slightly different characteristics. In my experience, it is the same with the OA3, OB3, and OC3s...generally (though not always) notable differences between the STs and Bs.

I wonder if I have some GB's like your favorites? Can you describe there construction? Are they tall bottle? Plates? Getter shape and getter placement???

In any Torii thread, since all the parts and their synergy play such a huge role in the Torii presentation, including how if so easily presents tube characteristics, it seems it could be very useful to know what we are comparing!

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #179 - 12/20/11 at 20:01:31

Thanks Lon, that is interesting. I actually have two pair of 5U4GBs that look like exactly the same construction, tall bottle, the same black plates, micas the same, double top hallow getters....everything the same. Both tested similarly too. One has no writing and was sold as an RCA make, the other pair is labeled Sylvania, and though their sounds have characteristics that are obviously the same, one is cooler and the other more rich and textural. Go figure.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #181 - 01/03/12 at 13:41:12

Thanks Lon, that is interesting. I actually have two pair of 5U4GBs that look like exactly the same construction, tall bottle, the same black plates, micas the same, double top hallow getters....everything the same. Both tested similarly too. One has no writing and was sold as an RCA make, the other pair is labeled Sylvania, and though their sounds have characteristics that are obviously the same, one is cooler and the other more rich and textural. Go figure.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #182 - 01/03/12 at 14:35:48

I finally found another set of RCAs that sound like the one that I most prize, so I have both pairs going in both Toriis and am very happy. And I have the other RCA pair (which sounds better in the Mk II than in the III) as a spare, along with a pair of EH that aren't too bad. I'm good for quite some time! (which probably won't stop me from picking up more if found cheaply).

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #184 - 01/03/12 at 15:55:44

Chris, good to see you.

I haven't seen any other source besides ebay (when listed) for these. I snagged a pair. A drier presentation than the Raytheon, I'm using them now and happy enough with them. The Raytheon may go back in soon though, I miss a sort of "bloom" they impart.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #187 - 01/03/12 at 18:45:18

Hey Chris,

To me the input VRs (at least of the same type) are the most subtle shifters in the Torii. But if your tube set/system/room is on the revealing side, changing from Raytheon to RCA OC2s is a real choice (changing to an OB2 is a big shift BTW). I like both the RCA and Raytheon, but I use the RCA most of the time. Both tubes bring out good balance top to bottom.

Like Lon said, the Raytheon does seem to have a little more bloom...it is a warmer tube, a little low mid bump that blends the music slightly more but without masking detail ...all good if this is what you need. The RCA I have I would call transparent, which can be good or bad to me depending on the other tubes, system and room, especially the input tubes that these regs "filter". The RCA is more open and spacious, more differentiating, and pulls a bit more ambient information. This is what I hear comparing the two with the tube set I have in right now, and for my sound needs a meaningful choice.

I buy from Ebay when I can too, an exceptional place for inexpensive 5U4GBs these days BTW.

But I check regularly with Brendan at tubeworld, who seems to always have the more obscure stuff, and VRs are relatively inexpensive.

The site is weird. Individual page links don't take you there, and the search does not necessarily work for O type tubes. Click Vacuum Tube Stock, then All Tubes from the links across the top...the top one is O. I got my RCAs here.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #189 - 01/04/12 at 02:39:39

C.E. wrote:

Quote:

I noticed some ways back that someone mentioned an RCA 0C2 tube...would you mind sharing your source? I'd love to try it!

C.E., just to be clear, you are looking for RCA NOS versions of the 0C2, the tube that ships with the Torii? I found RCA, Sylvania, and Raytheon I believe on eBay. There is a listing there now. Brendan at TubeWorld is also a good source.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #190 - 01/27/12 at 04:11:48

So... without reading all 13 pages, what's the consensus on the input tube?

Also FYI I have several different NOS 6922 tubes here. NOS RCA and NOS Russian OTK. Every NOS input tube I've tried sounded slightly "muddy", and also dramatically lowered the gain. I'd have to turn the volume knob way way past where I normally would, to get the same gain as with the included EH brand 6922's.

Does that sound right? What's so magical about the EH 6922's that they provide so much more gain than any others?

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #191 - 01/27/12 at 04:29:27

That seems odd. I've had EH 6922s (just sent a pair off with my SE34 Monoblocks to the new owner) and didn't notice they were "hotter" than other tubes. I've had OTK 6N2P tubes which were muddy and lower in output but not 6N1Ps marked OTK.

I'm not sure there really is a consensus on the input tubes, two or three different tube types seem to have a following among users.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #192 - 01/27/12 at 08:40:59

Hi Will or Lon, What would you rank as your most revealing tube combination? I ask as my speakers are on the warm side which I love and the bass is phenomenal (I'm praying not too be booted out before I buy a place). Just wanted to get your thoughts.......

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #193 - 01/27/12 at 12:38:28

There are so so many variables that I really doubt even exactly replicating another's tube set would get the same or closlely similar results. (Especially telling are the speakers, room, personal tonal balance tastes, and dare I say it, interconnects and power cords and speaker cables!)

I'll bite though and list what I've been using. As I've mentioned just a bit upstream I'm a big fan of the 6N1P as the input tube, I've tried others with various other combinations of attending tubes, but the 6N1P has the sound that makes the music seem real to me. This is very apparent when I use my ultimate test: music I recorded of bands rehearsing or making demos in my then garage apartment during the late 'eighties. These are recordings that I know very well, I know the players, the characteristics of the mics and machine, the instruments, the sound of the room.

I am using the JJ6CA7 right now, I've warmed up to them, and I'm saving my last quad of Winged C EL34s right now. I use RCA 5U4GB "straight" rectifiers, I've found a few pairs that have a particular rich sound I like in this amp. I'm using the stock Raytheon OC2 tubes, and I'm using RCA "straight" OA3 tubes. This is the tube set that gives me the least "hifi" sound and imparts the right tonal balance and detail to most of my recordings, allowing me to revel in some that I haven't been able to before.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #194 - 01/27/12 at 15:18:15

Morgan,

I agree with Lon's points, as I am sure you do. Room, cables, speakers the lot all matter. And "most revealing" is pretty revealing! In my case, my most revealing combination would be hard to listen to, and I too find my system/room a little warmish.

But if you tell me what you are using now for tubes, and sort of what level of "revealing" you are after compared to the sound you have now......

And support it with your basic sense of your sound......like: Bass: Almost nice definition, but out of control, tight but too dense...causes low mid articulation to suffer...would prefer this a pretty serious jump in definition and control. Or whatever. Low Mids: too warm and a bit muddled, would prefer slightly more spaciousness and articulation without losing musically.....or whatever. And describe the upper mids and highs in the same way. Try to get anything that sticks out too... like upper mids a little hard, or soft, or highs could offer better ambient information and sparkle, but are also a little hard or whatever.

With this sort of info, I might be able to more carefully point you somewhere based on how I understand your tubes in my system and going from there.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #196 - 02/01/12 at 03:16:45

Hi Will. I was letting the Super Cryos burn in over the weekend and wasn't listening too much.

My bass knob is at 9 o'clock or so and the treble knob at 1-2 or so. The impedence switch is in the rear position (not sure what number that is). I have the bias switch in the front in the forward position.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #197 - 02/01/12 at 06:40:02

Hey Morgan, Those answers will help. By the way, your impedance switch is toward the higher value (back) and the bias is on the higher value too (front). Together you are set on fully cranked.

And I guess you have explored lower bass knob setting to open up the low mid/bass a bit??? That would chill the dark aspect of warmth anyway. They are odd compared to the usual. To me, the bass knob right gives fuller/rounder bass, but also some nice textures. And left, tighter, more open bass/low mids, but a little tighter sound throughout. That balance is always changing a bit on my amp when I switch tubes. I don't know about you, but I find that bass knobs do quite a lot when you listen to the full spectrum of the music, and 1/8 turn can be important.

If you look at my post before last I had some thoughts as to how to head somewhere based on what tubes you are using, and asking specifically what you would like to be different. I have messed with a lot of tubes and might be able to give some simple suggestions toward your goal if I had a clearer idea of it. Maybe anyway.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #198 - 02/03/12 at 06:35:36

Thanks Will. I did miss your earlier post, so thanks for the advice and for the guiding me how best to decide what I am missing or looking for!

I am breaking in a new pair of the National 7Dj8 and a pair of the Super Cryo 61NP's along with my new Pendragons. So I have been laying off of trying to fine tune too much at this moment as on day she sounds amazing and the next day a little less exciting:(. With my prior full range speakers, it took >400 hours to break in so I suspect I'm having a little of that right now.....also I can't crank her up above about 75-80dB due to my neighbors, so that slows the break in process a bit.

I did play with the bass knobs tonight and I think I have a better feel for the, now. I do have a few questions. 1. Where do you run your bass knob? Far left?2. What do you mean by fully cranked with the impedence switch back and the bias switch forward? I've played with them a bit and I think I prefer them this way. It gives a bit more warmth and intimacy to the vocalists. More of the "in the room" sensation if you will.

I am going to run the system for a few days straight to aid the break in and hopefully be Saturday I'll have a better idea of what's happening.

Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?Reply #199 - 02/03/12 at 16:25:38

Morgan, I think those two inputs will be a nice test sets for you. I look forward to your impressions. Yes.....the breaking in thing along with moderate volumes, I get your reticence to evaluate. Especially for the speakers, but those Nationals will take a while to settle down and smooth in, and Lon says likewise for the 6N1P.

What I meant by cranked from the switches: the higher impedance sounds to me like it pushes the speakers harder and also faster???. A bit louder, a bit more present with an increased articulation that seems to come from more push/punch rather than more detail. I don't think of this as good or bad, but is a great tool for tuning to different speakers of other system factors as you have found. I tend to always be impressed with mine at the back/high setting, but fall back to the front/low setting preferring the more open relaxed sound. But that is my system/room and taste, and I don't think there is a "right" setting for this.

I think the bias switch in the forward position actually pushes up the bias of the output tubes a bit. The back position is more neutral. So forward, I think we get more presence and warmth, with a bit more across the spectrum .... a touch more upper mid emphasis, fuller mid-mids, more bass punch.....

So with both in the high positions, the amp is set to its higher output settings so to speak. This is what I meant by the amp being fully cranked...yours is set for exactly what you hear, with more presence and power which manifests as more warmth and intimacy in your setting.

I play around with my bass and treble knobs a lot. With tube changes, as little as a 1/8 turn here or there is important to me now that I understand them. One thing I find really cool about them both is how you can tune the sound stage with them nudging the center vocal exactly into the center with fine tuning. Or if all is well with the sound stage center, but one side of the room seems a little less sparkly...just a little tweak the knobs, very slightly tightening the bass (bass left), or punching the highs (treble right), or both, can bring everything into the beauty.

I tend to run mine with both the bass and treble knobs in the 11-1 o'clock range providing the sweet area for me in this system/room. But I don't think there is a right setting. They are there to help get you where you feel the best about the music.

I think the trickiest thing to figure out for me was the bass knobs. I find that they tighten or relax the sound throughout the spectrum, though it is most apparent with the bass. So I am always looking for that place where the bass only just tight enough because I love the midrange texture that comes with this setting, tight enough, but still warmish.