Quote:Sorry, Kimo. I do give you props for being very civilized in your arguments. But you are just plain flat wrong.

Based on what, you have no argument to refute mine, you simply say you simply say I am wrong. Well I am not wrong. There are guys with limited training training and no success in WWF and NFL crossing over and doing well, imagine guys who are truly talented,training from a young age and fighting in MMA.

Frankly if you guys think the fighters in MMA are the same caliber as NFL athlete, then you are insane, period.

Quote:Frankly if you guys think the fighters in MMA are the same caliber as NFL athlete, then you are insane, period.

Some much for the civilized argument thing.

And again Kimo, YOU are the one making the assertion. So YOU need to prove your point. You can't use the "prove your point" tactic when I used it to you first. And "I have been around elite athletes" and "You don't understand my argument" ain't proof, my friend.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

I simply used the same argument used against me, suddenly it's not enough. OK I have used stats, personal experience, and common sense, none of it is good enough for a bunch of MMA homers who think Chuck Liddell is a world class athlete.

News flash guys he is not, he is a great MA and has shown what a striker can do in the Octagon, but as I have said he simply the best of a very small group of people.

Quote:Any pro boxer trained in MMA would wipe the mat with the full contact guys of today.

That was your original quote. You seem to be implying that that any pro with a bit of MMA would wipe any other MMAer. Then your argument later changes to pros trained from a very young age. But isn't that what many MMAers are now? MMA has been around for 15 years, so there are certainly people that have trained very young.

Quote:The fact is pro athletes are on a completely different level.

How do pro MMAers fit into that equation? They are inherently less skilled somehow? How do you prove or verify that? So far, it is only your opinion.

Quote:But if you have the abiltiy to make it in pro boxing, why would you even consider fighting MMA?

Because you grew up doing MMA? That very opinion actually negates your own argument. Couldn't you easily reverse the two? Maybe the money doesn't matter as much to them as being in a particular sport.

Quote:Chuck Liddell deserves respect his is among the best in the world at what he does, but if you look at him as an athlete, he is at best college caliber and that is a long way from Pro caliber athlete and no where near Floyd Mayweather

Please be specifc why he is not pro-caliber. He lacks.......something?

Quote:NO he has a particular Skill he has trained in,

Yes. Like Mayweather. That has been my point all along.

Quote:Matt if want to think the MMA fighters of today are on the same athletic level of Pro Football players or Pro Boxers like Mayweather and De la Hoya, fine believe away.

You said you had "stats". Please provide them and be specific why they are NOT pro caliber. Not fast enough? Not strong enough? Stats, please.

Quote:The other point I am trying to make, that I guess I have not been clear about, is you cannot train the things that seperate great athletes from the elite professionals.

I agree, but this does not preclude someone from choosing MMA as a focus.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Frankly if you guys think the fighters in MMA are the same caliber as NFL athlete, then you are insane, period.

So lets do some math. According to the internet article "You Gotta Be Kidding!" by Mickey Charles CEO, sportsnetwork.com, the actual physical contact time in a 60 minute regulation NFL game is 12 minutes. Until someone watches a few games and determines otherwise, this is the number were going to use. This doesnt count those taxing minutes crouching in a huddle, or dancing in the endzone. So, there are 12 minutes of physical activity in an NFL game. Lets assume 6 minutes of that belongs to the defense and 6 minutes belongs to the offense. That means if one athlete plays every single play on one side of the line(yeah right) then they are exerting themselves for 6 minutes spread out over a 3 hour time period! wow talk about stamina! This is opposed to 15 minutes of head to head contact with two 60 second rest periods. Which sounds easier?

I would say that MMA athletes aren't the same caliber as NFL players, theyre tougher.

Quote: I did say that and do believe it, but I can't back it up because we would need someone to do it to prove it eventually someone will, and then we will see who is right.

Excuse excuse excuse.

Quote: Lets take his 40 time, what's his vertical, how many times can he bench 225? Do I need to go on?

Just about the same as a boxer, but when thinking about it, he has to spend more time doing other things as well, such as getting a heavyweight fighter off his chest in grappling. Definitely adds up more than 'static' training.

Quote: Yes Yes and Yes.

Prove it. Stats, data, facts. Not just "Yes Yes and Yes". That doesn't PROVE a thing. If you can't provide stats that proves MMA fighters aren't 'elite' then you're just full of excuses.

Quote: Like I said before, the guys who are elite athletes are identified by the powers of pro sports, no way they lose a guy to cage fighting, not gonna happen.

Well, it has happened. UFC 1, Royce Gracie's first opponent was.. Tada! A pro-boxer. Didn't even land a punch and only got headbutted once and instantly tapped out.

Quote: One might eventually slip through, and he will be a beast in the ring, maybe kill a few people

Enough with the killing people already. It's just stupid. And proves to us you're not intelligent enough to understand that MMA has rules that prevents lethal injuries. If you're going to talk 'tough' then maybe I can respond "Well if one slips in, he's going to have his limbs dislocated and then lay there helplessly while the MMA pounds away on his face while the 'elite' athlete can't move". Doesn't that sound stupid? Because that's what you sound like.

Quote: We have guys who are washed up WWF and NFL players trying their hand at MMA, with almost no training

Who? Brock? He hasn't started yet. Besides that, back up your statements.

Kimo, I'd suggest, if you don't have data, stats, facts to back up your statements, then don't state. It just proves you more and more wrong.

Now, I'm going to try and make this argument a bit easier. Define "ELITE ATHLETE" or "PRO ATHLETE"? Are they supposed to be injected with steroids? Are they supposed to be superhuman? Are they supposed to look like gorillas? What are they?

If you're talking about an athlete who are experts at what they do, and are seemingly unrivalled in what they do, then MMA qualifies as an elite athlete because you can't just drop a boxer in there and expect him to last long. It's just not going to happen because MMA are experts at what they do, and that is fighting with no restriction on technique used.

-Taison out

_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!