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Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

I ate a chicken sandwich today. Fact. Jonathan Winters died today. Fact. Therefore, every time I eat a chicken sandwich a celebrity dies.

See the error in your logic? Correlation does not mean causation.

LaRue's career ended because it was already over. If it happened to another player who actually had time left on his major league career then that person's career would not be over after that kick. In fact, if it happened to any Cardinal that had a lick of talent he would have been put on the 15 day DL (at most) and in a couple of weeks back with the team. Yet the Cardinals wanted that spot on the 40 man instead of waiting for a guy who got in 3 games a month (with a whopping .595 OPS) to get better.

The kick may have caused an injury, but his age and poor play ended his career.

Bad example. If you made Jonathan Winters a chicken sandwich, he ate it and died, then maybe you could claim that anytime you make a celebrity a chicken sandwich they will die. But you had no direct link to Winters death. Cueto injured a player, who then in turn never played again. The odds are that had LaRue not been injured, he would have played again in that season, right?

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

I'm going to be completely honest. If I was pinned against the backstop by a bunch of raging bulls, I'm probably doing the same damn thing Cueto did. My priority isn't the health of anyone around me, my priority is my own safety. He ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he panicked. Instinct took over. He wasn't purposefully trying to use his spike as a weapon. This isn't a Juan Marichal incident where he was trying to kill somebody with a baseball bat.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

Regardless, this thread has been derailed a bit and I've contributed to it, so sorry about that. When it comes to Quentin and Greinke, I think Quentin crossed the line. Greinke lowered his shoulder to protect himself. Not the wisest decision, but he didn't have many options there. Quentin should be decked a substantial amount of games. If that was Latos or Cueto he injured instead of Greinke, I can hardly imagine the outrage on this board.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Bad example. If you made Jonathan Winters a chicken sandwich, he ate it and died, then maybe you could claim that anytime you make a celebrity a chicken sandwich they will die. But you had no direct link to Winters death. Cueto injured a player, who then in turn never played again. The odds are that had LaRue not been injured, he would have played again in that season, right?

and the odds are that if he wasn't old and terrible, he would have played again that season too and future seasons.

The injury caused him to miss some games. That is the direct correlation. His terrible play and age made him expendable, and that ended his career.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

Originally Posted by dougdirt

So are we in agreement, that if Johnny Cueto hadn't kicked him, he would have played again that season then?

and you agree that if he was not an old, terrible player he would also have played again that year or a future year. So therefore it was not the kick that ended his career, it was his age and play that truly ended it.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

Originally Posted by scott91575

and you agree that if he was not an old, terrible player he would also have played again that year or a future year. So therefore it was not the kick that ended his career, it was his age and play that truly ended it.

It was both. LaRue would have played that season had the kick not happened. We don't know what would have happened the next year. He sucked, but a whole lot of sucky players stick around at catcher.

Here is what we know: LaRue never played again after being kicked.
Here is what we don't know: What would have happened had he never been kicked.

You can hypothesize if he would have played the next season had he not sucked all you want. I am doubtful that he would have been picked up too. But Corky Miller is still hanging around in Louisville, so you just don't know when it comes to catchers.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

I will give you a better analogy (although a bit more morbid).

A person with an immune deficiency disorger dies of pneumonia. So instead of blaming the disorder, you think "if it wasn't for the damn pneumonia virus he would still be alive, it's the pneumonia that is to blame and we must find a cure for it!" You can blame the pneumonia all you want, but it was the immune disorder that really killed him. A person with a normal immune system would not have died.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

Originally Posted by cincrazy

Regardless, this thread has been derailed a bit and I've contributed to it, so sorry about that. When it comes to Quentin and Greinke, I think Quentin crossed the line. Greinke lowered his shoulder to protect himself. Not the wisest decision, but he didn't have many options there. Quentin should be decked a substantial amount of games. If that was Latos or Cueto he injured instead of Greinke, I can hardly imagine the outrage on this board.

What line is there? There is no line for these things short of taking your bat to the mound IMO. So I ask you... what is "the line"? Not to call you out, but you have brought up that Quentin crossed "the line". I am curious.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

Originally Posted by scott91575

I will give you a better analogy (although a bit more morbid).

A person with an immune deficiency disorger dies of pneumonia. So instead of blaming the disorder, you think "if it wasn't for the damn pneumonia virus he would still be alive, it's the pneumonia that is to blame and we must find a cure for it!" You can blame the pneumonia all you want, but it was the immune disorder that really killed him. A person with a normal immune system would not have died.

Another bad example because pneumonia kills plenty of people without immune problems.

You aren't going to give a good example though. You are attempting to say something in the future was for sure going to happen that you can't possibly know for sure.

Again, LaRue would have played again that season. Cueto made it so he wouldn't (not that I believe he meant to do it to the extent he did). Cueto was directly responsible for an injury that ended his season. After that season, we don't know what would have happened had he been healthy enough to play. LaRue hit .172 in 2006-2007 in the Majors. He played three seasons after that. Bad production at catcher doesn't mean you won't get a job.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

It was both. LaRue would have played that season had the kick not happened. We don't know what would have happened the next year. He sucked, but a whole lot of sucky players stick around at catcher.

Here is what we know: LaRue never played again after being kicked.
Here is what we don't know: What would have happened had he never been kicked.

You can hypothesize if he would have played the next season had he not sucked all you want. I am doubtful that he would have been picked up too. But Corky Miller is still hanging around in Louisville, so you just don't know when it comes to catchers.

Here is the final thing I will say on it. When you and others state it was a career ending injury caused by Cueto, it is used to make it sound worse than it was. A normal player not at the end of his career and without a long, long history of concussions would not have had his career ended. His history of concussions and his poor play were what caused him to end his career. Without those, he would have played again.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

Originally Posted by scott91575

Here is the final thing I will say on it. When you and others state it was a career ending injury caused by Cueto, it is used to make it sound worse than it was. A normal player not at the end of his career and without a long, long history of concussions would not have had his career ended. His history of concussions and his poor play were what caused him to end his career. Without those, he would have played again.

First off, you don't know if the other concussions had anything to do with it. Was it likely that they did? Sure. But guys have gotten their bell rung once, good enough that they weren't able to recover from the concussion symptoms.

Secondly, I am not trying to make anything sound good, bad or anything in between. I am simply saying that the concussion that LaRue experienced at the expense of Johnny Cueto was directly responsible for ending his career. He never played again after it and he would have played again had it never happened, even if it was just to finish out that season. That is all that I am saying. Anything you are reading beyond that is just you trying to read into it for some other reason.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

Originally Posted by dougdirt

First off, you don't know if the other concussions had anything to do with it. Was it likely that they did? Sure. But guys have gotten their bell rung once, good enough that they weren't able to recover from the concussion symptoms.

Secondly, I am not trying to make anything sound good, bad or anything in between. I am simply saying that the concussion that LaRue experienced at the expense of Johnny Cueto was directly responsible for ending his career. He never played again after it and he would have played again had it never happened, even if it was just to finish out that season. That is all that I am saying. Anything you are reading beyond that is just you trying to read into it for some other reason.

You are saying he can't prove what would have happened had Cueto not kicked him (by saying he may have played) and at the same time insist that he would have played the rest of the year had he not. You can't have your cake and eat it to. If he can't make a definitive statement regarding what would have happened had the kick not taken place you can't either. I tend to fall on the side that Cueto did not "end his career". But can see the other side from a technicality stand point. Either way I don't really care at this point.

Re: Zack Greineke broke his collarbone

If Greinke doesn't want to get charged, don't hit someone up around the head with a 90 MPH baseball.

Quentin's shoulder doesn't feel any better if it was an accident.

And really- I think it was on purpose. What better time to throw a bean ball than when nobody expects it.

Quentin got hit the day before, Kemp got a brushback...then oops of all nine guys in the lineup Quentin gets drilled and it ain't close.

He should have kept his mouth shut and not led with his shoulder.

That wasn't all that close to "at" him. Quentin did some fine work to lean into that pitch. Most hitters would simply lean back and the ball would miss them. Quentin just happens to be an expert turning away with his back shoulder while sticking his front shoulder into the pitch.

I still find it extremely odd that a pitcher would bean the leadoff hitter on a 3-2 pitch in the sixth inning while protecting a 2-1 lead. That's all kinds of stupid, not that stupid doesn't happen all the time. And, again, it was a poorly executed beanball on top of that.

What set Quentin off was whatever Greinke said afterward. A.J. Ellis is really the guy screwed up - for not getting the ball back to Greinke and for not jumping on Quentin before he could charge. He's no Joe Oliver.

But Greinke definitely shouldn't have led with his shoulder. Or, if he was, then you've got to charge too so that you're dishing out more force than you're absorbing. Wild guess, but Greinke may not have played a lot of organized football.

Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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