This just seems like more Apple crap designed to force users to upgrade, They remove Google Maps and replace it with their own partially functional replacement. What a load of crap. Evidence by Siri working on jailbroken iPhone 4.

Apple's products may be lightyears ahead of where they were 15 years ago, but their customer service/treatment is lightyears behind. And this is from someone who has been using Apple products for over 27 years.

Nobody cares how long you've been using Apple products. Some feel the need to point this out as if to legitimize their completely off-base opinion- which remains completely off-base. Noone is forcing anyone to do anything. I have an iPhone 4, have had one since launch, and did not assume for a second that it could handle what was shown for the flyovers.

Thank you for asking. I haven't seen anything from anyone, except for maybe one or two posters here, about Apple's capacity to handle real-time data loads from Siri. I'm using this ancient technique called "logic," which is in short supply in today's overwrought minds, who can only think about what THEY want.
It goes like this.
1. All Siri requests are processed centrally by Apple, even those that ask her to dial a number out of your own contact list. At least that's my understanding, correct me if i'm wrong.
2. From the beginning, Siri has been overloaded at certain times, like Friday nights, or on Oscar weekend here in LA. "I'm really sorry about this, but I can't take any requests right now. Please try again in a little why-uhl."
3. Therefore I draw the radical conclusion that Apple's network and processing capacity is limited at this early stage—they just opened the new data center, they're simultaneously rolling out iCloud, and they're selling new phones with Siri at unprecedented rates.
So you (not you but certain others) want them to further bog down Siri by opening her up to the iPhone 4 crowd as well? Then NOBODY WOULD BE HAPPY. That's not what Apple wants.
The same goes for turn-by-turn. IT'S THE NETWORK, people! They are not trying to force you to upgrade, or deprecating your older hardware. They are scrambling to get their data load covered—obviously!
Edit: SoliX reminds us of the first Siri weekend, when hardly anybody had a good time with her. I missed that party. Anyway, I bet turn-by-turn is going to be unusable at certain times for a while, after it rolls out.

Well said!

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

From the perspective of an iPhone 4 owner, I wonder why I would 'upgrade' to iOS 6. I'll lose the vastly superior Google Maps, I'll lose Street View, and I'll gain what...? Nothing. No gimmicky 3D maps, no turn by turn. Well I guess I'll get low res black and white satellite imagery instead of the nice Google satellite photography, so that might be nice for an old time feel.

I guess my phone will run even slower than before as well, as it did when I installed iOS5. It used to be a quick device, but no longer.

Nobody cares how long you've been using Apple products. Some feel the need to point this out as if to legitimize their completely off-base opinion- which remains completely off-base. Noone is forcing anyone to do anything. I have an iPhone 4, have had one since launch, and did not assume for a second that it could handle what was shown for the flyovers.

But I bet you never expected Apple to pull street view functionality. You'll be getting a huge downgrade when you install iOS 6. Happy with that?

Not the point. Of course we upgrade. But to replace a fully functional built in app with one that is not fully functional is not a good thing. They are still going to be selling/giving the 4 when they next update. Having a fully functional built in map function is not too much to ask for.

Yes... and iOS 5 has, and will continue to have a fully functional Maps app! They aren't going to erase the Maps app from your phone.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

I agree 100%. People are just looking for something to complain about.

This entire argument looks pretty silly to me as I am one of those people who has *never* driven a car in the first place. All my life I've had people telling me that I'm a fool for wanting to ride my bike or walk everywhere and that driving is about "freedom," control, power (and by implication) ... "being a man" (although I'm not sure what this means for women drivers). I've lost count of how many times I've been told over the years that GPS driving and "turn by turn" were for "idiots" and "old ladies," and (again by implication) "real men know where they are going."

In fact these things were just initially for the rich and the fact that most couldn't afford the luxury, meant that they had to be denigrated of course. Now these things are available to all, and for free, and everyone's just pissed that they can't get theirs because the picked the wrong phone or are still not rich enough to upgrade.

It's all sour grapes. It's all extremely childish, selfish, behaviour over something people claimed not to even want a few years ago, but now it's being handed out for free they are damned sure they are going to jump up and down and hold their breath til they turn blue if they don't get it. "Real men" Indeed.

Wah-wah-wah. Baby wants a bottle.

Ha! A "real man" would never ask for (or follow) directions or consult a map! That's what wives are for... and someone to yell at when you get lost

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

Strange. Apple scores highest in consumer satisfaction and customer service year after year on nearly every survey conducted. Sometimes by quite a wide margin.

I'll let you look up this common knowledge for your own enjoyment and edification.

Next time, please include a disclaimer in your post that tells us it's only your anecdotal opinion and shouldn't actually be taken to mean anything more.

But as someone who has been "using Apple products for 27 years" none of this should be a surprise to you, and furthermore, Apple has always been this way and you've happily consented to it for over 27 years. You've voted with your wallet each time. So you can't have any complaints.

Apple KNOWS THEIR SH*T. Period. If the feature is not on your phone, there's a reason for it. No, it's not to shaft you, it's to keep the User Experience in line with their standards. The very same standards that have been making them richer than God. You want all those neato-jailbreak options? Then jailbreak your device, install what Apple didn't allow you to have standard, and watch all the glorious lag ensue, if the app is even as functional as it *should* be. Or get an Android device, and do nothing at all to watch the lag. It comes standard.

LOL... one of the best posts on this thread!

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

The lack of Street View is my major concern for usability right now. I seldom use it but when I do it's indispensable. I hope Google has a maps app for iOS before too long.
I've been testing iOS 6 on my iPad (3) and Maps isn't so great visually in many ways. The directions, which do offer driving, public, and walking, are all there but the way the blue course line is drawn is wonky in several ways.
For instance, I can do a simple 0.7 mile trip from my house to the Amtrak train station and the course line not only gets oddly thicker and thinner in places for no apparent reason but also gets off the road a bit and into yards, and even overshoots the location a bit on the map so it's not where it should be in relation to the pin. Comparing it to Maps on my iPhone with iOS 5.x doesn't have these issues.
On top of that, this was all in the flat view of the upcoming Maps. If I hit the 3D view (not Flyover view), which is nice just like with my TomTom, the blue course line gets completely fubar and doesn't even match anything remotely usable or accurate.
It's the first beta so I expect plenty of changes before it's released but I have doubts that it will be as usable as the current Maps even after it's released.
PS: I had thought you can email your directions to someone who can then pull it up on Google Maps but that does not seem to be the case in the current Maps apps.
But is that because of the audio receiver tech they added to the A5 chip for compressing the audio for Siri's servers? It's an excuse and easily true but is it the complete truth? I'd think the load from piling on several dozen million more devices at once is a more accurate reason than having slightly better local HW for processing the audio for transmission.

I do not have an issue with the "missing" street level view. In my opinion, the combination of an bird's eye view (overhead oblique angular view) with the static images from Yelp compensates for the loss. The addition of 3D Flyover Mode makes the resulting application superior.

Directions to my home are inaccurate by seven miles. I used the spectacular "report a problem" interface to notify Apple.

I noted that sharing from an iOS 5 device shared a Google Maps URL as well as a V Card. Only the ability to copy and paste the V Card address is provided apparently.

Why do you think Apple's crowd sourced traffic will beat Waze? Waze is cross platform, so you get data from all those Android and Blackberry users too. Plus Waze also has things that Apple won't dare to show, such as speed traps and hidden police cars.

You comment doesn't make sense. Android users are always telling us how great their apps are, in fact, that is the gist of many comments in this thread. Now you indicate that a significant number of Android users are Waze users?

I do not have an issue with the "missing" street level view. In my opinion, the combination of an bird's eye view (overhead oblique angular view) with the static images from Yelp compensates for the loss. The addition of 3D Flyover Mode makes the resulting application superior.
Directions to my home are inaccurate by seven miles. I used the spectacular "report a problem" interface to notify Apple.
I noted that sharing from an iOS 5 device shared a Google Maps URL as well as a V Card. Only the ability to copy and paste the V Card address is provided apparently.

There is absolutely no way one can rationally that FlyOver is even close to Street View, much less superior.

Here is a quick set of screenshots I just took. I'll overlook that it took me many tries to get even common places to be searchable with Apple's map database as it's not yet live and the rendering effect that makes it look like the camera used 17th century glass making techniques.

What I can't overlook is that FlyOver is available for very few places, the quality is excessively poor compared to street view, there is thing with physics and light that prevent images from going through buildings, as noted in the pics. I couldn't even use Grauman's Chinese Theater, my first pic because it would have just been obstructed by the building completely, hence the angled shot.

Also note how close you can get in with Street View. Regardless of whether you use Street View or not there is absolutely no way a rational person can say that FlyOver or FlyOver and a bunch of other misaligned services make up for Street View. It's like people saying Android is superior to an Apple product after they think of a bunch of semi-functional services that can technically do almost all of what Apple offers.

Bottom line: Apple needs it's own Street View.

FlyOver

Street View

Edit: You can't even see the logo for Starbucks next to Madame Tussauds in the FlyOver image (and it's not even blocked by anything) and yet I can zoom in on it easily in Street View despite it being far back from the street.

Edited by SolipsismX - 6/12/12 at 5:39pm

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

There is absolutely no way one can rationally that FlyOver is even close to Street View, much less superior.
Here is a quick set of screenshots I just took. I'll overlook that it took me many tries to get even common places to be searchable with Apple's map database as it's not yet live and the rendering effect that makes it look like the camera used 17th century glass making techniques.
What I can't overlook is that FlyOver is available for very few places, the quality is excessively poor compared to street view, there is thing with physics and light that prevent images from going through buildings, as noted in the pics. I couldn't even use Grauman's Chinese Theater, my first pic because it would have just been obstructed by the building completely, hence the angled shot.
Also note how close you can get in with Street View. Regardless of whether you use Street View or not there is absolutely no way a rational person can say that FlyOver or FlyOver and a bunch of other misaligned services make up for Street View. It's like people saying Android is superior to an Apple product after they think of a bunch of semi-functional services that can technically do almost all of what Apple offers.
Bottom line: Apple needs it's own Street View.

You are entitled to your opinion but it is only your opinion.

iOS 6 Maps currently provides:

2D Mercator-variant projection with (at higher zoom levels) and without 3D projection with approximately 20 zoom levels of the entire (readily-navigable globe)

Every projection misrepresents the surface of the Earth in some way. Since all projections can show one or more but not all of the following; the greater the number of projections the greater the ability of the user to discern their location (although larger numbers of projections become increasingly confusing at an exponential rate); true direction, true distance, true areas, true shape.

Dead reckoning is a wholly unreliable method given that the average global positioning system (GPS) user is not trained in the technique. For the purposes of modern living, satellite navigation is vastly superior and additionally methods to supplement the model only increase navigation accuracy. Furthermore, given the limitations of 360-degree panoramic "street level" views of the entire surface of the planet which is entirely impractical versus aerial and satellite photography the superiority of the later becomes manifest.

I further submit that Apple has intentionally decided to not include multimodal navigation (e.g. pedestrian and public transportation routes) to appease otherwise upset partners who previously provided a navigation service for Apple products that many users may determine is no longer necessary. Such reasoning could apply to street level views as well as other expected high-end features and functions.

A well integrated street view would be nice but I suggest that the best method for Apple to develop such a database is to rely upon users. If Apple were to implement the hidden panoramic mode in iPhone 4S and higher, users themselves could photograph points of interest and with the exif and GPS metadata submitted to Apple along with imagery where such is "missing."Edited by MacBook Pro - 6/12/12 at 6:52pm

Yet you haven't countered my arguments.
You could always go to Android. Have fun with that. They do have Street View though.

I have countered them with pictures that prove you are wrong. There is nothing else to prove. Any points about how FlyOver could get better or how it has other uses or reasons why Apple couldn't do its own Street View have no baring on it being axiomatically false that FlyOver is a valid replacement for Street View.

If I wanted a FlyOver-like experience for my OS instead of a Street View-like experience for a specific task I would move to Android but I like my features to be well thought out so I'll stick with my iPhone and whatever 3rd-party app will offer me Street View on it. If you want to keep making excuses that FlyOver + Yelp is superior to Street View (which is extra odd because by having Street View doesn't mean one can't use Yelp) then perhaps you should consider the Android experience as you're making all their excuses for them today.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

I have countered them with pictures that prove you are wrong. There is nothing else to prove. Any points about how FlyOver could get better or how it has other uses or reasons why Apple couldn't do its own Street View have no baring on it being axiomatically false that FlyOver is a valid replacement for Street View.
If I wanted a FlyOver-like experience for my OS instead of a Street View-like experience for a specific task I would move to Android but I like my features to be well thought out so I'll stick with my iPhone and whatever 3rd-party app will offer me Street View on it. If you want to keep making excuses that FlyOver + Yelp is superior to Street View (which is extra odd because by having Street View doesn't mean one can't use Yelp) then perhaps you should consider the Android experience as you're making all their excuses for them today.

You haven't proven anything. What do pictures prove or at least what is the point you are attempting to make with the pictures? You posted some pictures. I could post some images to counter your images. Images themselves don't prove anything other than, perhaps, that you have the capability to post images on this website. Furthermore, a single data set isn't indicative of an entire dataset as vast as a GIS model.

Are you suggesting that one set of images has more contrast or definition?

If I post an image of a monkey does that prove that monkeys are superior to a Space Oblique Mercator-variant projection?

You really seem to have an issue with Apple. Perhaps you need a vacation. While on the vacation you should peruse a dictionary for the definition of "fact."

You haven't proven anything. What do pictures prove or at least what is the point you are attempting to make with the pictures?

You're asking what do pictures prove in a debate about comparing the quality of pictures for a given task? Seriously?!!!!

Quote:

You posted some pictures. I could post some images to counter your images. Images themselves don't prove anything other than, perhaps, that you have the capability to post images on this website. Furthermore, a single data set isn't indicative of an entire dataset as vast as a GIS model.
Are you suggesting that one set of images has more contrast or definition?

Then do it. Pick any place that has both FlyOver and Street View results and show me where FlyOver is superior to Street View for the task that Street View was designed.

Quote:

If I post an image of a monkey does that prove that monkeys are superior to a Space Oblique Mercator-variant projection?

I didn't think you could lose this argument any worse than you had. At least now you can honestly say you've proved me wrong once in this thread.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

You don't know how to objectively compare images?
You suggested that Street View is superior by posting a single example; therefore you are liable for defending your "claim."
So, you admit defeat? Thank you. At least you are being honest. Your comments are absurd otherwise. I am beginning to wonder if you are a second account for "Relic."

My gosh you are being ridiculous, and I'm probably just falling for troll bait. But do people really have to spell it out for you?

In practical terms, streetview allows you to view a location from a ground level perspective and a resolution that allows you to orient yourself as if you were actually standing on the location. You can read signs and survey the environment so you'll know what to expect when you arrive there. Flyover looks nifty for aerial views but is of next to no help if you are trying to pick out details like signage.

Furthermore, the current coverage of flyover is far too lacking to be a comprehensive tool of any sort. Perhaps that will change, but I am betting it will take a number of years at least, and that means it is an undeniable step backwards right now.

Every time you list that insane technical term about projection it makes me wonder if you might be perseverating on abstract technical details and losing sight of tangible real world benefits. if that is the case I'm happy that apples implementation fascinates you, but please try understand many others have different needs from a mapping application.

And finally, as long as google will provide and apple will permit a google maps app through the app store, We can enjoy the best of both worlds.

4.-Clearly Apple is doing this to convince people to upgrade and influencing new customers to get the newer device. How is this surprising, shocking or even weird?

This ridiculous sense of entitlement where people feel insulted they're not given stuff for free is almost insulting. There are excellent free options (Waze, for one) and fantastic non-free ones (Navigon is my favourite). Now there's an additional free option from Apple for some devices. How is this bad? Where having purchased a phone a year ago (or having got the lower-end phone recently) entitles anyone to free software down the road?

4.-Clearly Apple is doing this to convince people to upgrade and influencing new customers to get the newer device. How is this surprising, shocking or even weird?

This ridiculous sense of entitlement where people feel insulted they're not given stuff for free is almost insulting. There are excellent free options (Waze, for one) and fantastic non-free ones (Navigon is my favourite). Now there's an additional free option from Apple for some devices. How is this bad? Where having purchased a phone a year ago (or having got the lower-end phone recently) entitles anyone to free software down the road?

I'd be insulted, if I was developing stuff for you, people.

After a while apps, especially games, require the latest version of iOS to run. Therefore if you don't 'upgrade', then your device gradually becomes less useful as the app store becomes increasingly closed off.

You're speculating that there will be a Google Maps app to replace Apple's horrible new maps app. Maybe there will be, maybe there won't.

Assuming you own an iPhone 4S or buy an iPhone 5, you'll get maps which are hugely inferior to Google's, but you'll get turn by turn with traffic crowd sourced from a tiny sub set of iOS users. You'll also get no street view, but hey, at least you a 3D flyover mode for when you buy that shiny new jetpack.

Assuming you own an iPhone 4 or 3GS, you'll get Apple's crappy maps and have street view removed. Great upgrade!

Unless Apple can turn this around within the space of a few months there is going to be an epic backlash against the new maps. They're taken something which worked extremely well and made it into something which is vastly inferior.

I don't get the iPhone 4 problem. When iOS 6 is released, the iPhone 5 will be available, i would assume that the majority of updates to the 5 will be from the 4, not the 4S - certainly I won't be updating. So most users of OS 6 will, after a year, be on the 4s or 5, so nothing to see here. After all with most 2 year contracts you can upgrade for $99 or something like that, for free in the UK.

The iPhone 4 will be 2 years old at that point. It's still a new device, there should be no reason to upgrade.

The iPhone 4 will be 2 years old at that point. It's still a new device, there should be no reason to upgrade.

27 months old. go back that time again and you are at the first gen. Its old. The normal cycle is two years. You are getting iOS 6, but not all of it. Rejoice. No Android phone released at that time will have sniff of getting last year's latest Android version, never mind whatever they demo next month.

After a while apps, especially games, require the latest version of iOS to run. Therefore if you don't 'upgrade', then your device gradually becomes less useful as the app store becomes increasingly closed off.

Which is a normal process and, I hope, we all agree is a bummer but to be expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kotatsu

You're speculating that there will be a Google Maps app to replace Apple's horrible new maps app. Maybe there will be, maybe there won't.

I'm stating it, as it's obvious there will be. I don't think Apple's is horrible. I think it's new, like Google Maps was when it began (I may be the only one that remembers, if we go by the comments).

There will be, and not only from Google. Obviously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kotatsu

Assuming you own an iPhone 4S or buy an iPhone 5, you'll get maps which are hugely inferior to Google's, but you'll get turn by turn with traffic crowd sourced from a tiny sub set of iOS users. You'll also get no street view, but hey, at least you a 3D flyover mode for when you buy that shiny new jetpack.

Weird statement. The day iOS 6 comes out you will have exactly the same options as you had before, for the platform, plus one more: Apple's own maps.

I currently use Waze for crowdsourced traffic information and turn-by-turn. It's far, FAR, superior to Google's offering in Android. I used to use Street View for specific stuff when needed and now I'll stop using it in the Maps app and start using it in the Google app (where everything else related to Google currently is and where maps would be if Apple hadn't provided its own, if not google earth, google places or google latitude, all of which can accomodate it).

This ridiculous dichotomy doesn't exist. It's argument for the sake of argument. A free built-in tool that relied on freely available data has changed to provide its own data, without limiting the presence of every other tool out there or for a different front-end for the same publicly-available data. Not only this, but the whole argument centers around a tool that SUCKED ROYALLY as it was, so what's happened is the best possible thing that could happen: Someone else now can build a better iOS app for Google maps.

To me, it's all benefit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kotatsu

Assuming you own an iPhone 4 or 3GS, you'll get Apple's crappy maps and have street view removed. Great upgrade!

Yeah. I also get ability to view a bunch of sports data in Siri I'm also not interested in. You get stuff while not losing stuff (you can get street view elsewhere, RIGHT NOW, in iOS, without going through the limited Maps app).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kotatsu

Unless Apple can turn this around within the space of a few months there is going to be an epic backlash against the new maps. They're taken something which worked extremely well and made it into something which is vastly inferior.

I don't forecast anything bigger than a minor backlash, mainly from people trying to make this more of an item than it is. For all intents and purposes the new maps app is NOT the old maps app. The previous one was vastly limited and was mediocre for the most part, except where the google data came in. The new app is a proper app that's extremely better, but the data provider has changed.

At worst, people won't use it. This is so ridiculous that I'm sure even you can see it. At best people use it a lot (which they will, hey, free GPS navigator!) and it improves enormously (just as Google Maps did once people started using it, again, something you may not be remembering).

Not even counting the inveitable jailbreak that will change the data source or will allow you to open street view.

Considering Apple are KNOWN for their great customer service, this is your OPINION and NOT a fact like you've worded it.

I must disagree. They are known for denying issue until they are forced to admit they exist. iPhone 4 antenna, MagSafe cable fraying, calendar date-shift issues, Siri performance. Consider also the scope of Apple's settlements - they have only ever agreed to compensate affected consumers in countries where they have been successfully sued. So, courts in the country where Apple is based determine there is an issue, Apple refuse to support affected consumers in other countries. How do you like those facts?

does anybody know how the navigation functionality will work? will the maps from the supported countries be stored locally on the phone just like it is now on the current dedicated navigation apps like TOM TOM, magellan, etc?

Come on, be fair. This is Apple Map 1.0. Give apple a few years and it'll catch on to Google. But personally I don't know why Apple wants to go there. I hope Apple Map is not "wired" into the iOS. If the Big Apple wants to track me to show me ads, I'll think twice about upgrading.

Come on, be fair. This is Apple Map 1.0. Give apple a few years and it'll catch on to Google. But personally I don't know why Apple wants to go there. I hope Apple Map is not "wired" into the iOS. If the Big Apple wants to track me to show me ads, I'll think twice about upgrading.

I've no doubt that targeted ad delivery will be one by-product of Apple Maps. A lot of that may depend on what deals Apple has made to share personal/non-personal data with content providers in exchange for their services. In any case advertising revenue won't be the primary focus.

does anybody know how the navigation functionality will work? will the maps from the supported countries be stored locally on the phone just like it is now on the current dedicated navigation apps like TOM TOM, magellan, etc?

My guess is that they'll be online-only, like Google Maps navigation was until last week or like most free navigators still are. Waze is the same.

I must disagree. They are known for denying issue until they are forced to admit they exist. iPhone 4 antenna, MagSafe cable fraying, calendar date-shift issues, Siri performance. Consider also the scope of Apple's settlements - they have only ever agreed to compensate affected consumers in countries where they have been successfully sued. So, courts in the country where Apple is based determine there is an issue, Apple refuse to support affected consumers in other countries. How do you like those facts?

Yes, this is it exactly. The list of known issues that plagues Apple devices is not huge, but is significant. The number of issues they acknowledge and fix free of charge for their customers is minute. One example is the large incidence of iPhone 4 users that experience the phone microphone totally malfunctioning. A simple Google search turns up thousands of hits for pages dealing with this. Yet, Apple refuses to acknowledge this is an issue and if it happens to you out of warranty, you have to cough up for a replacement. This is but one example.

This just seems like more Apple crap designed to force users to upgrade, They remove Google Maps and replace it with their own partially functional replacement. What a load of crap. Evidence by Siri working on jailbroken iPhone 4.

You just want to jailbreak.

Look a little more, there is a FREE Siri like App in the Apple Store, which works on the iPhone 4.

As for replacing Google Maps, great I can't wait for a better Map product. I've hit several very significant Google Maps location and route errors recently. Google Map malware for Apple ?