i just noticed that the mysterious eskayamany of the numerals are kinda similar to lao/khmer/thai numerals

trismegistos

Apr 4 2010, 09:01 PM

QUOTE (jmeeluekan @ Apr 3 2010, 06:20 PM)

i found this is this the alphabet pinoy ppl were used in philipiens before u got pwned by spanish equestedor?

That was used by the Srivijayan royal elites of the Philippine isles circa 10th century. Among the counted allies included in that oldest historical document unearthed so far, included Medang(either Sumatra or Java) and Devata/Diwata/Butuan in Mindanao. Interestingly, the King or Raja or Pema-Gat or Lord of Medang was acting as representative in behalf of the Chieftain or King or Pema-Gat or Lord of Butuan or Devata. And the Lord of Tondo acted as the Supreme Judge on that particular dispute and enacted the PARDON.

We were Hindu-Buddhist-shamanists before but right after Spanish Colonizations we were Moros-animists. The script found during the advent of Spaniards is the Baybayin script.

When I went inside a cave in Tanay Rizal months ago a saw scripts similar to the Baybayin script written on the cave walls.

ocrapdm

Apr 4 2010, 10:26 PM

The Philippines got "Indianized" through Malaysia and Indonesia.

There was NO direct contact with Indian culture.

Most Philippine terms from Sanskrit (e.g., mukha, guro, dalubhasa, sampalataya, etc.) were borrowed through Malay; likewise, all Hindu artifacts in the Phils came through Malay traders, as well as Arab and Persian seafarers.

The Tagalog people had another system of writing similar to East Asian ideographs (seen in Angono Petroglyphs). The baybayin from the Pallava script came much later.

trismegistos

Apr 5 2010, 12:46 AM

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Apr 4 2010, 10:26 PM)

The Philippines got "Indianized" through Malaysia and Indonesia.

There was NO direct contact with Indian culture.

Most Philippine terms from Sanskrit (e.g., mukha, guro, dalubhasa, sampalataya, etc.) were borrowed through Malay; likewise, all Hindu artifacts in the Phils came through Malay traders, as well as Arab and Persian seafarers.

The Tagalog people had another system of writing similar to East Asian ideographs (seen in Angono Petroglyphs). The baybayin from the Pallava script came much later.

So, are you saying the Hindu artifacts were made by Malay traders like the Tara statue in Butuan as not made by locals. I don't think so. Many Gold artifacts bearing some HIndu and Buddhist influence were proven to be made locally as authenticated by various experts such in the case of the Gold artifacts found in Surigao and Butuan. The LCI or LAGUNA COPPERPLATE INSCRIPTION, as authenticated by the Dutch expert, was not made in Indonesia or Malaysia.

No direct evidence that Persian traders came like Persian boats was found. But at the contrary, Balangay boats were found all over the isles with evidences of China wares, Indian wares and even Persian wares in them or near sites where the boats were found suggesting direct trading contacts from Philippine isles to as far as Persia and India done by local traders to those places near and far. No, these are not Chinese junks nor Indian trading vessels though there were some Chinese and Bruneian junks found, majority of the trading vessels found are still indigenous or locals. Of course you are going to say that these are Malay traders(But the experts were able to distinguish Bruneian or Malay trading vessels from the local ones)...

But Luzon traders were all over the place in maritime Southeast Asia. They were even carryinng China goods and mistaken as Chinamen in Batavia(Jakarta, Java) and in Cebu. (Accdg to the Portuguese annals as pointed by William Henry Scott.)

The local Indios were not passive(recipient) from the trade but were active seafarers, traders, mercenaries, and raiders.

The proselytization by the Spaniards and the banning of trading/seafaring ways, and the banning of the carrying of arms finally made the islanders pacified and ISOLATED from their other Malay brethren(Spaniards only sanctioned the official Galleon trade for their profit as well as some mestizos'). The Spaniards were guilty also of cultural extinction, now we've forgotten our past, our connections with our Southeast Asian brothers and made our people INDOLENT(noticed by French and Austrian observers and even by JOSE RIZAL in the 19th century who also noted the cultural degradation as compared to other colonized states in Southeast Asia). Fortunately, a renaissance about our past is having a resurgence.(Note: The probable reason why the Spaniards banned the trading-seafaring ways of the Indios or East Indians and relegated the trading to Chinese traders who were kept under control in a district called Parian(Spaniards didn't have a port in China unlike the Portuguese and so relied on the coming of the Chinese traders for the China goods), and of course to the state-sanctioned Galleon trade was the lessons learned from the Tondo conspiracy or the Revolt of the Lakans or the Brunei-Japan-Tondo connections. The Spaniards feared ALLIANCES would be forged again with its neigbors such as the SULU SULTANATE, MALACCA SULTANATE, BRUNEI SULTANATE, AND TO JAPAN to topple their colony. link: http://senorenrique.blogspot.com/2008/08/t...of-1587-88.html

filipinoy

Apr 5 2010, 01:11 AM

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Apr 4 2010, 08:26 PM)

The Philippines got "Indianized" through Malaysia and Indonesia.

There was NO direct contact with Indian culture.

lol indians had been living in the PI way before the europeans even came

trismegistos

Apr 5 2010, 01:21 AM

QUOTE (filipinoy @ Apr 5 2010, 01:11 AM)

lol indians had been living in the PI way before the europeans even came

In some of the annals, we had the Japanese and the Chinese having their own enclaves like the Parian or Dilao even before the Spaniards came. No mention of Bombay Indians I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. If they were I am quite sure the Spaniards will use them to suppress the locals like the Japanese were used as Mercenaries for their divide and conquer tactics. Anyways, the Spaniards call the indigenous locals as Indians or Indios and Moros. But no differentiation were made if there were Bombay Indians amongst the local Indios at that time.

Indian settlements started during British invasion where the Sepoys were used as soldiers but defected. But we can presume as much as local historians(colonial-minded) that there were Indians from Subcontinental India because of the heavy admixture of Sanskrit words in our language. They failed to see the viewpoint of ancient Filipinos as ACTIVE traders and subscribed to the idea of the INDIOS as passive recipient of the Malay, Chinese, Indian and the Arab trade.

But I am sure there was DIRECT trade contacts to India as our Austronesian forefathers were well known mariners and traders reaching to all THREE INDIAS even to East Africa(ZANJ). We even have indigenous trading vessels laden with PERSIAN WARES. Persia is obviously farther than India.

In the tarsilas or genealogies(which are quasihistorical documents accdg to Scott) the local royals including the royalties of the Malaccan, Bruneian Sultanates especially those descending from the Bruneian Moslem Sultan Ragam or Bulkeiah, bragged of somewhat unbelievable claims like having Indian(Indian princess married to Alexander the Great), Arab(Prophet Mohammed), Chinese descent(via Ong Sum Ping) and even Macedonian descent(Alexander the Great).

newties21

Apr 5 2010, 02:37 AM

I doubt Phillipines ever became Hindus.It was never recorded that way.I think there are just some contacts between Phillipines and other SEA kingdoms, but remember something, not all the SEA kingdoms were Hindus either.It is a mistake to assume all those SEA kingdoms in Malaysia and Indonesia became Hindus. Actually not.Only a few kingdoms became Hindus, and intermittently.Some switched to Buddhism, some switched to Islam. Some still retain their traditional practices.So whatever the Hindu influence that they had, I think it was not enough to significantly influence Phillipines to become Hindu.

matigasngulo

Apr 5 2010, 02:52 AM

one could also claim that China, Korea and Japan were "indianized" by a certain degree when adapting Buddhism and indian art forms. but i think it would be exaggerated. i don't believe Filipinos all became Hindus.

lol still have to get around to my astrological interpretation of the LCI.

trismegistos

Apr 5 2010, 03:11 AM

QUOTE (newties21 @ Apr 5 2010, 02:37 AM)

I doubt Phillipines ever became Hindus.It was never recorded that way.I think there are just some contacts between Phillipines and other SEA kingdoms, but remember something, not all the SEA kingdoms were Hindus either.It is a mistake to assume all those SEA kingdoms in Malaysia and Indonesia became Hindus. Actually not.Only a few kingdoms became Hindus, and intermittently.Some switched to Buddhism, some switched to Islam. Some still retain their traditional practices.So whatever the Hindu influence that they had, I think it was not enough to significantly influence Phillipines to become Hindu.

So, the Hindu/Tantric/Buddhist Tara statue found in some areas in the Philippines as just playthings.

But that's a possibility , I remember reading on some Spanish records that the Indios had as heirloom from their ancestors copper or bronze BUDDHA statues. But the Indios accdg to them don't know what were those for as they had their own ANITOS.

But I agree that not all Indios in the Philippine isles were Hindus. Predominantly were Animists or practicing indigenous Shamanistic beliefs or syncretic beliefs.

Remember when the Spaniards came, whatever Hindu-Buddhist influence as exhibited by the Laguna Copperplate Inscription as well as the Gold relics found in Butuan and Surigao were all erased with the advent of Islam on the islands.

An interesting ramification presented by above video link if one will reflect the status of the owner of the Sacred Thread... which is similar to the Boxer codex ... is the owner a Sovereign of such a High Status, which will intimidate various rulers of other kingdoms in Southeast Asia if they would be standing side by side by each other. A ruler wearing a golden Sash or UPAVITA would intimidate or humiliate any Majapahit and Srivijayan royalties from neighboring kingdoms. Imagine a Golden Rajah with his Gold warriours would surely outclass any royals and warriors. Is the owner of that Golden Sacred thread a Srivijayan? Remember the other Golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. jk

The maritime thalossocracy or alliance of rajanates called by the early Chinese as Sanfotsi and by the early Arabs as Zabag which Coedes collectively called Srivijayas stemming from a Kedukan bukit inscription found near Palembang was said to have a powerful competitor in the south called Wakwak by the early Arabs or Toupo by the early chinese. Is the Butuan-Toubok(Cotobato)area fits the bill for the powerful competitior of Sanfotsi-Zabag? The Tausugs of the Sulu Sultanate were said to be originally Bisayan migrants from Butuan. The Surigao Treasures billed as Gold of Ancestors is in the area of GOLD RICH BUTUAN.

Philippine gold artifacts in general tend to be more elaborate and better crafted than most from West Borneo.

Harrisson looked at the Dr Arturo de Santos collection (part of which was acquired by the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas) as well, and observed that “…the range of Philippine gold jewelry…includes many pieces of a complexity and finesse that is beyond anything attempted in Borneo” in so far as what had been found at that time (Harrisson 1968: 56).

Throughout Indonesia there was a relationship between gold artifacts and the ruling aristocracy, in the class-power centers which developed on the coastal plains around the middle of the 1st millenium AD (Harrisson 1968:44). Precious metals were worked ‘exclusively in those areas where the influence of Hinduism was strongest’: he includes Java, Bali, southern Celebes and the coastal districts of Borneo. These areas developed as centers with established hierarchies, which necessitated the conspicuous display of wealth (Harrisson 1968: 47).

There was a demand for gold, which the Philippines could have supplied. It would be reasonable to suggest that one of the main sources of Javanese and Bornean gold was the Philippines. That trade would have been important enough to have been direct, by-passing minor pass-on players say, in Sarawak or Sulawesi. Moreover, the early interest in gold from the Philippines would have been in the raw material rather than wrought artifacts. In turn, local interest would have been on goods not made of gold, which they had plenty of.

quotes Alcina, a Jesuit writing about a hundred years after Legaspi, the conquistadores of the Philippines in the 16th century:“I do remember that once when I was solemnizing a marriage of a Bisayan principala, she was so weighed down with jewelry that it caused her to stoop — to me it was close to an arroba or so (1 arroba = 25 lbs.), which was a lot of weight for a girl of twelve. Then again, I also heard it said that her grandfather had a jar full of gold which alone weighed five or six arrobas. Even this much is little in comparison to what they actually had in ancient times.”

In some of the annals, we had the Japanese and the Chinese having their own enclaves like the Parian or Dilao even before the Spaniards came. No mention of Bombay Indians I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. If they were I am quite sure the Spaniards will use them to suppress the locals like the Japanese were used as Mercenaries for their divide and conquer tactics. Anyways, the Spaniards call the indigenous locals as Indians or Indios and Moros. But no differentiation were made if there were Bombay Indians amongst the local Indios at that time.

Indian settlements started during British invasion where the Sepoys were used as soldiers but defected. But we can presume as much as local historians(colonial-minded) that there were Indians from Subcontinental India because of the heavy admixture of Sanskrit words in our language. They failed to see the viewpoint of ancient Filipinos as ACTIVE traders and subscribed to the idea of the INDIOS as passive recipient of the Malay, Chinese, Indian and the Arab trade.

But I am sure there was DIRECT trade contacts to India as our Austronesian forefathers were well known mariners and traders reaching to all THREE INDIAS even to East Africa(ZANJ). We even have indigenous trading vessels laden with PERSIAN WARES. Persia is obviously farther than India.

In the tarsilas or genealogies(which are quasihistorical documents accdg to Scott) the local royals including the royalties of the Malaccan, Bruneian Sultanates especially those descending from the Bruneian Moslem Sultan Ragam or Bulkeiah, bragged of somewhat unbelievable claims like having Indian(Indian princess married to Alexander the Great), Arab(Prophet Mohammed), Chinese descent(via Ong Sum Ping) and even Macedonian descent(Alexander the Great).

yeah, if the locals are called INDIOS. then bumbay indians are called what, indios too right? & muslim indians are probably called moros too

Spaniards can discriminate whether the Indios were Pampango Indios, Tagalogs, Zambals, Pintados. I am quite sure if there were Bombays, they would have easily distinguished them as such. They were called Sepoys. Right.

Bombay settlements only became established during the Sepoys'. I am not eliminating the possibility that before the Spaniards came, there were actually Bombay or Sepoy Indio traders actually coming in to trade(I AM SURE THERE WERE) and formed enclaves or settlements akin to what the early Japanese and Chinese had. BUT NOT AS PROMINENT as there were not recorded by the Spaniards in their annals much the same way as the latter TWO. Except during the coming of the SEPOYS.

INDIAN INFLUENCES were so mixed indigenously in our culture EARLY ON as to permeate our language(including script) and syncretic beliefs via directly or indirectly via the Hindu Majapahit or the Buddhist Srivijaya and not as a result of Indian invasion or mass migration(only a few percentage of Filipinos had a Bombay or Sepoy phenotype) but could be that our ancestors who were mariners and traders and formed alliances with its neighbors had brought Indian influences. EVEN THE MALAY ROYAL ELITES(INCLUDING OUR LOCALS) CLAIMED DESCENT FROM INDIAN PRINCESS WHO GOT IMPREGNATED BY ALEXANDER THE GREAT.

NOT TO FORGET THE AUSTRONESIAN INFLUENCES IN INDIC LANGUAGES. There is an extensive reserch done by Pol Kekai that native Austronesian words were present in INDO-ARYAN languages.

The Baybayin script, the Laguna copperplate inscription with its Kavi script based from the Brahmin script and the Gold of our ancestors (as found in Surigao and Butuan) are good cases for Indian influences.

But the point I am driving at is, our ancestors were not PASSIVE recipient of the trade and influences of the Indian, Persian, Arab, Malay or the Chinese traders but themselves were ACTIVE traders, seafarers, mercenaries and raiders bringing with them those influences.

And so deflating some exaggerated claims being driven by INDIAN SUPREMACISTS like:

QUOTE

In a not too distant past Hindu culture stretched from the Philippines to Madagascar. Hindu merchants dominated trade, Hindu kings ruled over vast territories and the Hindu religion was practiced by millions of Malays, Indonesians, Thais, Cambodians, Laotians, Vietnamese, Burmese, Filipinos and Africans.

ocrapdm

Apr 5 2010, 07:49 AM

QUOTE (trismegistos @ Apr 5 2010, 01:46 PM)

So, are you saying the Hindu artifacts were made by Malay traders like the Tara statue in Butuan as not made by locals. I don't think so. Many Gold artifacts bearing some HIndu and Buddhist influence were proven to be made locally as authenticated by various experts such in the case of the Gold artifacts found in Surigao and Butuan. The LCI or LAGUNA COPPERPLATE INSCRIPTION, as authenticated by the Dutch expert, was not made in Indonesia or Malaysia.

No direct evidence that Persian traders came like Persian boats was found. But at the contrary, Balangay boats were found all over the isles with evidences of China wares, Indian wares and even Persian wares in them or near sites where the boats were found suggesting direct trading contacts from Philippine isles to as far as Persia and India done by local traders to those places near and far. No, these are not Chinese junks nor Indian trading vessels though there were some Chinese and Bruneian junks found, majority of the trading vessels found are still indigenous or locals. Of course you are going to say that these are Malay traders(But the experts were able to distinguish Bruneian or Malay trading vessels from the local ones)...

But Luzon traders were all over the place in maritime Southeast Asia. They were even carryinng China goods and mistaken as Chinamen in Batavia(Jakarta, Java) and in Cebu. (Accdg to the Portuguese annals as pointed by William Henry Scott.)

The local Indios were not passive(recipient) from the trade but were active seafarers, traders, mercenaries, and raiders.

The LCI is written in the Malay language of that time. While it included lots of Sanskrit loan words, these could possibly have drifted through the Malay Peninsula and not through direct contact with Indian traders. In fact, it does support Philippine links with the Indonesian Sri Vijayan empire, but NOT direct Indian contact.

For one thing, there was NO Indian settlement in the country. As said by another AFer above, only the Chinese and Japanese have had settlements in the country. Chinese influence is much greater than Indian influence in the country. There are more Chinese words in Philippine languages; almost all Filipino food have a Chinese touch; and there are much more Chinese looking people in the Phils than Indian looking ones.

Spanish accounts such as that of Antonio Morga and that of French J. Mallat never spoke a word about the presence of Indians; they unequivocally claim, however, that the Indios were mixed Malay, Chinese, and Japanese, one that would resonate over and over until the American era.

Even Pardo de Tavera had to press hard for Indian influence in Philippine culture just to prove that "Filipinos are equal to Spaniards" - because it would mean that Pinoys have a claim to a 'Sanskrit heritage'. Of course, Indian cultural links and the Sanskrit language aren't that prestigious anymore, and Filipinos now would instead claim Spanish! Esp. since everything Indian is associated with being "5-6".

The only Indian looking people I see in the Phils are those from Cainta, who are descendants of the Sepoys from the Brit occupation of Manila; others are from more recent arrivals, many of them being Catholic Marathi people from Goa, India.

Most rulers of the barangays then were from Borneo, where they were possibly Indianized through contacts with Sri Vijaya and Madjapahit, while most natives (possibly adopted one or two Hindu gods, but) are generally animists (at least until the Arab traders came to Mindanao). So despite the Hindu artifacts being discovered in different islands in the country (mostly from the Southern islands), the population was never Hindu. They prolly worshipped one or two of the Hindu pantheon, but they weren't true Hindus in the fullest sense of the word.

ocrapdm

Apr 5 2010, 07:53 AM

QUOTE (trismegistos @ Apr 5 2010, 06:27 PM)

The Baybayin script, the Laguna copperplate inscription with its Kavi script based from the Brahmin script and the Gold of our ancestors (as found in Surigao and Butuan) are good cases for Indian influences.

The Baybayin script "evolved" from the Java script, which in turn, is from the Pallava script, which came directly from the Brahmin script.

In any case, the evolution wasn't direct.

For sure, there are Indian influences in Filipino culture (and Luzon sailors could possibly arrive in India), but the fact remains that there was no large Indian population or settlement in the Phils to significantly influence the country, and most of these so-called influences came indirectly through way of Malaysia.

trismegistos

Apr 5 2010, 08:53 AM

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Apr 5 2010, 07:53 AM)

The Baybayin script "evolved" from the Java script, which in turn, is from the Pallava script, which came directly from the Brahmin script.

In any case, the evolution wasn't direct.

For sure, there are Indian influences in Filipino culture (and Luzon sailors could possibly arrive in India), but the fact remains that there was no large Indian population or settlement in the Phils to significantly influence the country, and most of these so-called influences came indirectly through way of Malaysia.

Yes, I was the AF poster who said about the Sepoy and Bombay Indian population.

I said only a few percentile of our population have a phenotype like SHIVAKER'S.

The thesis done by Mike Pangilinan seems to point for a parallel development from the Brahmi script for both Kavi script and Baybayin script as well as Indianized script of the Japanese and the Korean buddhists as a result of Srivijaya influence.

PKM's thesis: Sanfotsi, Zabag or Srivijaya's capital was formerly located in the Philippine isles. Refer to the link I gave. btw, Austronesian influences to India were also entertained by PKM.

There is such a misconception when we speak of Majapahit or Srivijaya as empires following the western point of view as in Roman empire or any other empires. The correct term is Alliance or Confederacy or thalasocracy. Various independent city states throughout maritime Southeast Asia as they were not continental just acknowledge some form of allegiance to powers of whatever ruling clan predominated on certain period like the Srivijayas and Majapahit. They were connected by TRADE NETWORKS, ROYAL INTERMARRIAGES, AND LOOSE POLITICAL ALLIANCES OR CONFEDERACIES with an allegiance to a Maharaja(in case for Zabag or Sanfotsi or Srivijaya). So we can't say for certain such influences came via Malaysia or Indonesia as the INTRICATE TRADE AND CULTURAL CONNECTIONS are INTERWOVEN.

Even with the advent of Islam, Maritime SEA were interconnected. And the coming of the western powers divided them as the countries we now know as Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia and the rest of the countries of Southeast Asia.

Majapahitans

Apr 5 2010, 09:38 AM

I don't meant to be religiously bashing anyone but IMO, the good thing that Indonesia was colonialized by The Netherlands or Malaysia-Singapore-Brunei was colonialized by British is, there was never a systematic mass (forced or not) conversion of natives to Catholicism took place as happened in The Phillippines. Look.., most of former Spanish empire colony are overwhelmingly turn out into a Catholic majority nations.

Netherlands and British belongs to Protestant or Anglo Saxon Church. The Netherlands since early of their nation history are quite liberal, secular and more interested in trade rather than religious feud. The Netherland also suffer domination of Spanish empire and hegemony of Papal Vatican until the independence of Netherlands by The House of Orange, so they tends to yawn or even oppose the domination of Spanish empire and Vatican. They are more interested in trade and economic domination rather than.., no offense "saving the soul of savages". Ofcourse there was promotion of Christianity in Malaysia or Indonesia during colonial times, but never a systematic eradication of native's beliefs. But well, that's history...

I believe Phillipines was once a member of this ancient maritime trade network and also influenced by Hinduism through their neighbour in Indonesia, however somehow native Austronesian Tribal Animism and Shamanism still thrive, just like happened in many parts of Indonesia. Ancient Phillipines have diplomatic relations with Medang (Mdang i Bhumi Mataram) in ancient Java 9-10 century AD. It's a good thing that Phillipines reclaim their lost history and forgotten glory.

asyano

Apr 5 2010, 11:25 AM

QUOTE (Majapahitans @ Apr 5 2010, 11:38 PM)

I don't meant to be religiously bashing anyone but IMO, the good thing that Indonesia was colonialized by The Netherlands or Malaysia-Singapore-Brunei was colonialized by British is, there was never a systematic mass (forced or not) conversion of natives to Catholicism took place as happened in The Phillippines. Look.., most of former Spanish empire colony are overwhelmingly turn out into a Catholic majority nations.

Netherlands and British belongs to Protestant or Anglo Saxon Church. The Netherlands since early of their nation history are quite liberal, secular and more interested in trade rather than religious feud. The Netherland also suffer domination of Spanish empire and hegemony of Papal Vatican until the independence of Netherlands by The House of Orange, so they tends to yawn or even oppose the domination of Spanish empire and Vatican. They are more interested in trade and economic domination rather than.., no offense "saving the soul of savages". Ofcourse there was promotion of Christianity in Malaysia or Indonesia during colonial times, but never a systematic eradication of native's beliefs. But well, that's history...

I believe Phillipines was once a member of this ancient maritime trade network and also influenced by Hinduism through their neighbour in Indonesia, however somehow native Austronesian Tribal Animism and Shamanism still thrive, just like happened in many parts of Indonesia. Ancient Phillipines have diplomatic relations with Medang (Mdang i Bhumi Mataram) in ancient Java 9-10 century AD. It's a good thing that Phillipines reclaim their lost history and forgotten glory.

the folk traditions and beliefs of the Philippines were never eradicated and are still practiced today.

QUOTE

Folk Christianity

Introduction

The Philippines is known as the only Christian country in East Asia. About 66 percent of the population are nominal or committed Roman Catholics and about seven percent of the population are Protestant. However, much of the Christianity is mixed with animism, creating Folk Christianity.

Indigenous religions

The first Filipinos practised animistic religions. Since there are over 7000 islands there was a great diversity of animistic belief and practice, just as there are many tribal groups and languages. Successive waves of immigrants introduced Hinduism and Islam, and later Christianity.Records made by Spanish settlers and missionaries, and existing tribal religion, show that the indigenous Filipinos believed in a supreme sky god, or creator god. This god was invisible, his name was sacred and only spoken during rituals, and no images of him were made. He was believed to be so far from humanity that contact was often made via lower deities, in the form of prayers and rituals. These lower deities were divided into benign and malign, and both were petitioned or appeased.There was also belief in a kind of ‘trinity’ of gods. Beneath the sky-god was his son, who was usually associated with the sun. There was also another god who was a kind of inherent spirit. (Although this belief bears some similarity to Christian ideas, it also has parallels in Hinduism and Pacific religions.) Generally no images were made of any of these gods.

Primitive animism

The ancient beliefs also included animism. Spirits were thought to dwell in all objects, particularly natural features such as trees, rocks, water, weather conditions. Offerings were made to these spirits, and places where malign spirits were believed to dwell were avoided. Animals were also believed to house spirits, and humans were believed to have kindred animal spirits. Thus some animals were considered sacred or symbolic.

Life after death

Most Filipino tribes believed in life after death, and the widespread belief was in a heaven for the good and a hell for the bad. Heaven and hell were generally thought to be divided into different levels, through which the soul could move by gaining merit. Some tribes believed that souls went to different places according to how they died. In many regions of the Philippines, it was thought that people had more than one soul; sometimes three souls, sometimes two. Of the two, the good soul went to heaven and the bad one went to hell or remained on earth. Some tribes still believe that if a child is born close to the death of a family member, the child will receive a part of the dead person’s soul. Ancestor worship was also practised, with the spirits of the ancestors remaining on earth or visiting the living.Many of these beliefs are still held by tribal groups, and many have been mixed with Christianity.

Roman Catholicism in the Philippines

Spanish settlers arrived in the Philippines in the early 1500s. They named the archipelago after their king, Philip II, in 1542, and in 1565 the islands were conquered by Spain. Roman Catholic missionaries were among the early settlers. They began teaching and converting almost immediately, but allowed existing Filipino culture to coexist with Christian belief and church teachings.This understanding produced the Folk Catholicism which prevails in the Philippines. That is, the coexistence of animism and Catholicism. Filipinos believing in this do not perceive inconsistencies between the two.The mix of Folk Catholicism is evident in daily Filipino life. In Catholic areas, the local spirits of animist belief have been largely replaced with local patron saints. A crucifix or cross is believed to ward off evil spirits in the same way as an amulet. In buses and taxis there is often a shrine or statue of the Virgin Mary or baby Jesus, believed to protect those who travel. There are also Christian slogans and pictures in public places.Shrines are visited, particularly around the times of Christian festivals, such as Easter. Some shrines are ostensibly Christian but are built on the site of pagan shrines and still used for animistic or psychic purposes.It is also common to attend church (usually Mass) regularly or hold Christian beliefs but also to follow animistic practices. Some people visit a spirit doctor if they are ill or have a problem with another person. They might make sacrifices or offerings to spirits for appeasement or when asking for good health or good crops. This would include people in rural and urban areas, the well educated and the uneducated. Tribal animistic practises range from low-key rituals (performed by some Christians as well as non-Christians) such as burning something bad-smelling when ill, in order to ward off evil spirits (who are believed to hate bad smells), to the possession of a familiar spirit and sacrifices to appease it.

Ancestor veneration

Ancestor veneration is also practised in some areas and on All Souls Day (31 October) many people, including those with Christian beliefs, visit graveyards to tend the graves of deceased relatives and to offer food. These activities have grown out of ancient beliefs surrounding death, the afterlife and the spirits of ancestors. The spirits of the dead were appeased in order to prevent them from harming the living, or worse, taking the living with them to the realm of the dead. Death was feared because of the spirits. Many animistic tribal communities still believe in ancestral spirits and base their lives around appeasement or avoidance. In other areas the fear of death has been absorbed into Catholicism.

I don't meant a complete eradications of local beliefs, but religious proselytizing wether it was Islam or Christianity in some point may harm the original austronesian native beliefs.

Here in Indonesian interior jungles and far reach islands the zending and missionary also spread christianity to natives, at this point it seems that the religious proselytizer are quite satisfied enough if natives willing to "embrace Jesus as their saviour", and tends to allow native beliefs elements to be practiced alongside and created that hybrid "Folk Christianity". Yet IMO it was better if religious proselytizer weather Islam or Christianity keep their hands-off natives and stop try rigorously to win converts... You see I'm soo into pluralism and conservation of native beliefs. I mean there's already too many Christian and Muslim in this world... Let the native beliefs well and alive.

trismegistos

Apr 6 2010, 09:18 AM

@Majapahitans:Speaking of indigenous beliefs, do Indonesians have a counterpart to our local ANTING ANTING or AGIMAT or HIYAS( AMULET or CHARMS )? link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agimat

-which are usually energetically charged by PRAYERS or ORACIONS or MANTRA in the BURNAY language( sounds LATIN but not actually)

supposed to give the bearer SUPERHUMAN strenght or abilities.

they have what they called patutuo or TESTING, by submitting themselves to be hacked by bolo(jungle knife) and they will be unharmed.

btw, an Indonesian martial arts called Tetada Kalimasada http://tkqc.bravehost.com/ , have gained many adherents here in the Philippines

where practitioners through some exercises to strengthen their CHAKRA centers gained some form of enhanced energy, endurance and healing abilities...

I don't meant to be religiously bashing anyone but IMO, the good thing that Indonesia was colonialized by The Netherlands or Malaysia-Singapore-Brunei was colonialized by British is, there was never a systematic mass (forced or not) conversion of natives to Catholicism took place as happened in The Phillippines. Look.., most of former Spanish empire colony are overwhelmingly turn out into a Catholic majority nations.

Netherlands and British belongs to Protestant or Anglo Saxon Church. The Netherlands since early of their nation history are quite liberal, secular and more interested in trade rather than religious feud. The Netherland also suffer domination of Spanish empire and hegemony of Papal Vatican until the independence of Netherlands by The House of Orange, so they tends to yawn or even oppose the domination of Spanish empire and Vatican. They are more interested in trade and economic domination rather than.., no offense "saving the soul of savages". Ofcourse there was promotion of Christianity in Malaysia or Indonesia during colonial times, but never a systematic eradication of native's beliefs. But well, that's history...

I believe Phillipines was once a member of this ancient maritime trade network and also influenced by Hinduism through their neighbour in Indonesia, however somehow native Austronesian Tribal Animism and Shamanism still thrive, just like happened in many parts of Indonesia. Ancient Phillipines have diplomatic relations with Medang (Mdang i Bhumi Mataram) in ancient Java 9-10 century AD. It's a good thing that Phillipines reclaim their lost history and forgotten glory.

The Philippines was fragmented, so it was easily colonized by the Spaniards. Since they were able to penetrate the inner regions, they were able to transform the religious (and to some extent, the ethnic) landscape of the Philippines.

The British and the Dutch were largely based only on coastal lands and relied on local kings, which explains why they weren't able to influence Malaysia and Indonesia as much as Spain did in the Philippines.

Both the British and Dutch also relied heavily on the Chinese, whom they favored against the natives; that's why Malaysia and Indonesia have English-speaking Protestant Christians and Dutch-speaking Protestant Christians. This is in contrast in the Philippines, where the Chinese are the lowest in society. There were three mass murders of Chinese during the Spanish Era, which led the Chinese to revolt for several times against Spanish rule. While the indigenous Filipinos were being converted en masse to Catholicism and while some intermarried with Spaniards; the Chinese remained outsiders of Hispano-Filipino society. It was only during the American period that Evangelicals started to convert Chinese as well.

That the Spaniards are worse colonial administrators is seconded by the fact that all their former colonies (Mexico, Argentina, Equatorial Guinea, Philippines, Argentina, Paraguay, Bolivia) are now poor, bankrupt, and ridden with corruption. Poverty is seen as a value in Catholic thinking. The French did the same = Indochina, West Africa

In contrast, most British colonies are doing well financially. South Africa, Kenya, and Zimbabwe are relatively well-off than the rest of Africa; while Canada and US are economic powerhouses; the Caribbeans are more affluent than other South American nations; India meanwhile, is a rising giant, and Malaysia is on its way toward first world status.

ocrapdm

Apr 7 2010, 03:09 AM

QUOTE (trismegistos @ Apr 5 2010, 09:53 PM)

I said only a few percentile of our population have a phenotype like SHIVAKER'S.

The thesis done by Mike Pangilinan seems to point for a parallel development from the Brahmi script for both Kavi script and Baybayin script as well as Indianized script of the Japanese and the Korean buddhists as a result of Srivijaya influence.

in keeping with... PKM's thesis: Sanfotsi, Zabag or Srivijaya's capital was formerly located in the Philippine isles. Refer to the link I gave. btw, Austronesian influences to India were also entertained by PKM.

There is such a misconception when we speak of Majapahit or Srivijaya as empires following the western point of view as in Roman empire or any other empires. The correct term is Alliance or Confederacy or thalasocracy. Various independent city states throughout maritime Southeast Asia as they were not continental just acknowledge some form of allegiance to powers of whatever ruling clan predominated on certain period like the Srivijayas and Majapahit. They were connected by TRADE NETWORKS, ROYAL INTERMARRIAGES, AND LOOSE POLITICAL ALLIANCES OR CONFEDERACIES with an allegiance to a Maharaja(in case for Zabag or Sanfotsi or Srivijaya). So we can't say for certain such influences came via Malaysia or Indonesia as the INTRICATE TRADE AND CULTURAL CONNECTIONS are INTERWOVEN.

Even with the advent of Islam, Maritime SEA were interconnected. And the coming of the western powers divided them as the countries we now know as Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia and the rest of the countries of Southeast Asia.

Most archeological evidence, however, support an extra-Philippine source from the Sumatran Malay, Java, or Chamic scripts.

martin_nuke

Apr 7 2010, 04:15 AM

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Apr 7 2010, 02:59 AM)

That the Spaniards are worse colonial administrators is seconded by the fact that all their former colonies (Mexico, Argentina, Equatorial Guinea, Philippines, Argentina, Paraguay, Bolivia) are now poor, bankrupt, and ridden with corruption. Poverty is seen as a value in Catholic thinking. The French did the same = Indochina, West Africa

Venezuela was a colony on Spain and 98 percent of its population is Catholic and the Philippines is only 85 percent maybe less but why is Venezuela rich and the highest wage earner in Latin America?

Mexico is the 11th largest economy in the world and Argentina which has 92 percent Catholic population is also rich.

I think Catholicism has no relevance to the economic status of a country.

When the Philippines was still a colony of Spain it was the richest is Asia and many neighboring countries envied the Philippines during that time then after WW2 and gained independence from the United States the Philippines was #2 in Asia after Japan and many countries also envied us.

Something just happened along the way that made the Philippines really poor.

jmeeluekan

Apr 7 2010, 08:20 AM

QUOTE (martin_nuke @ Apr 7 2010, 05:15 AM)

Venezuela was a colony on Spain and 98 percent of its population is Catholic and the Philippines is only 85 percent maybe less but why is Venezuela rich and the highest wage earner in Latin America?

Mexico is the 11th largest economy in the world and Argentina which has 92 percent Catholic population is also rich.

I think Catholicism has no relevance to the economic status of a country.

When the Philippines was still a colony of Spain it was the richest is Asia and many neighboring countries envied the Philippines during that time then after WW2 and gained independence from the United States the Philippines was #2 in Asia after Japan and many countries also envied us.

Something just happened along the way that made the Philippines really poor.

i think Philipines doing real good, everyone there seems to be good in English and Computers and most of all is u filipinos dont have ugly names like Ho , Kim yang su, Hun Sun or something alike.

martin_nuke

Apr 7 2010, 05:01 PM

Ho, Kim yang su, Hun Sun are actually Chinese or Korean names.

Fictionicon

Apr 7 2010, 05:59 PM

[quote name='martin_nuke' date='Apr 7 2010, 05:15 AM' post='4483732']Venezuela was a colony on Spain and 98 percent of its population is Catholic and the Philippines is only 85 percent maybe less but why is Venezuela rich and the highest wage earner in Latin America?

Mexico is the 11th largest economy in the world and Argentina which has 92 percent Catholic population is also rich.

I think Catholicism has no relevance to the economic status of a country.

When the Philippines was still a colony of Spain it was the richest is Asia and many neighboring countries envied the Philippines during that time then after WW2 and gained independence from the United States the Philippines was #2 in Asia after Japan and many countries also envied us.[quote]

im always hearing people blaming macros.........what is the economic status of the Philippines during his presidency anyway...

from my pop's obversation, president marcos had done more for the philippines than all the rest of following presidents like aquino

ocrapdm

Apr 7 2010, 06:29 PM

Most intellectuals actually favor Marcos than Aquino.

While Marcos certainly committed some human rights abuses and corruption, it was also during his tenure that the Pan-Philippine (Maharlika) Highway was built, connecting the islands from North to South (by one road) for the first time. Metropolitan Manila was also founded under Marcos; most roads, Manila reclamation areas, and classical infrastructure were made under Marcos. Marcos was the one who removed Spanish from the curriculum and replaced the currency series to Filipino (from a formerly US-dollar resembling English series).

The only thing Filipinos didn't have during Marcos' time was freedom - which Aquino restored. Unfortunately, she was met with several attempted coups and destabilization plots. While Aquino wasn't corrupt at all, it was her family (siblings) who stole the holdings and hidden wealth of the Marcoses (with Cory not knowing it, however).

It is said that the Marcos presidency could have been the best, except Imelda was there!

REGIONALISM and FAMILY LOYALTIES in the Philippines remain the bedrock of massive nepotism, graft and corruption in the country. It would probably never be solved since the Philippines aren't really a single nation to begin with - it also never had a unified culture or aspiration unlike Japan or the USA.

ocrapdm

Apr 7 2010, 06:41 PM

QUOTE (martin_nuke @ Apr 7 2010, 05:15 PM)

Venezuela was a colony on Spain and 98 percent of its population is Catholic and the Philippines is only 85 percent maybe less but why is Venezuela rich and the highest wage earner in Latin America?

Mexico is the 11th largest economy in the world and Argentina which has 92 percent Catholic population is also rich.

I think Catholicism has no relevance to the economic status of a country.

When the Philippines was still a colony of Spain it was the richest is Asia and many neighboring countries envied the Philippines during that time then after WW2 and gained independence from the United States the Philippines was #2 in Asia after Japan and many countries also envied us.

Something just happened along the way that made the Philippines really poor.

When you have an authoritarian ruler such as Hugo Chavez (in Venezuela), all militias and local armies give way to the central government. Chavez has a free hand because no local kingpin or ruler can challenge his authority. In a collectivistic culture, an authoritarian figure is desperately needed. Chile progressed under Pinochet; Brazil under Kubitschek; and Argentina under Peron. It does seem to work even in individualistic cultures such as what Stalin and Lenin did in the former USSR and Washington in the USA.

Still, Catholicism, which lists down Poverty as a value, may have a relevance in the economic status of a country. All Catholic countries have a "que sera sera / bahala na" mentality. Protestant countries, in turn, see economic progress as depicting 'divine favor', making them adapt a work ethic that will bolster the self belief of being 'blessed'. Spain, Portugal, and Italy, the Catholic members of the EU, remain somewhat as the European backwater.

Venezuela might be relatively rich, but it is not really close to comparably large countries such as Germany or France. And Mexico is just a lucky one due to its proximity to the United States.

Most progressive nations in Europe, North America, Australia, and Africa are all Protestant nations.

Confucianism and Taoism also holds sway over the major belief systems of East Asia such as China, Korea, Taiwan, and Japan (though largely Shinto), and these beliefs also hold to a 'work ethic' that is as comparable to that seen in Protestantism - just look at how Ethnic Chinese / Japanese progress wherever they go.

While religions may NOT have a direct effect on the populace, it does affect the value systems to a certain degree such that it remains a major unconscious factor in making decisions.

ocrapdm

Apr 7 2010, 06:44 PM

QUOTE (asyano @ Apr 6 2010, 12:25 AM)

the folk traditions and beliefs of the Philippines were never eradicated and are still practiced today.

Filipinos are classified by "Operation World" as "Pagano-Christian", although the label itself is not completely true, since even Scandinavian countries (though mostly Lutheran) continue to practice Pagan Nordic practices such as dancing around the maypole (in Sweden) and believing in elves and fairies (in Iceland).

martin_nuke

Apr 7 2010, 08:42 PM

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Apr 7 2010, 07:29 PM)

Marcos was the one who removed Spanish from the curriculum and replaced the currency series to Filipino (from a formerly US-dollar resembling English series).

It was Cory Aquino who removed Spanish from the curriculum not Marcos. The Philippines is still using the Peso which is still the currency in Latin America. Marcos also revived the Sri Vijayaness of the Philippines which I like.

Actually I blame the Marcos and Aquinos for the economic demise of the Philippines. Fidel Ramos was the only president who was able to make the Philippines an economic tiger again until Erap came along that it became a disaster for the Philippine economy. If Marcos is a dictator, Aquino is actually a communist/socialist who like the Philippines to be a Socialist country.

I do not like Villar nor NoyNoy to become the next president I like Gordon to be the next president.

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Apr 7 2010, 06:41 PM)

Most progressive nations in Europe, North America, Australia, and Africa are all Protestant nations.

Luxembourg the richest country in EU is 87% Catholic also Australia is also predominantly Catholic.

The richest state in America is California and guess what is their dominant religion?

filipinoy

Apr 8 2010, 03:27 AM

QUOTE (martin_nuke @ Apr 7 2010, 02:15 AM)

Venezuela was a colony on Spain and 98 percent of its population is Catholic and the Philippines is only 85 percent maybe less but why is Venezuela rich and the highest wage earner in Latin America?

Mexico is the 11th largest economy in the world and Argentina which has 92 percent Catholic population is also rich.

Argentina is a whitest country in latin america with people both from west & east europe. many nazis went hiding in argentina

Most archeological evidence, however, support an extra-Philippine source from the Sumatran Malay, Java, or Chamic scripts.

Wow, many archaelogical evidence?Baybayin script didn't have any archaelogical evidence as of yet. Only preserved by the friars during the early Spanish period. I am very much interested to hear more of those.

Perhaps you mean to say scholarly speculations by experts.

It's just a matter of interpretation or perception.

For e.g., a colonial minded individual, will speak of the lexicon of Tagalog as "borrowed" from malay but to another individual like filipinoy would say.

QUOTE (filipinoy @ Apr 6 2010, 06:37 PM)

Malay loan words?isnt tagalog & malay are in the same language family?. most similar words & word roots in the two languages are Cognates meaning that they might have only similar words because they evolved from a common ancestor, not from word loaning.

Such is the same case with the scripts. They have the same ancestry. We may never know the true parentage of Brahmi script. That perhaps it was borrowed from elsewhere too. From Sundaland.

Accdg to the Rigvedas, the Brahmins came from the Southern seas after the Cataclysym and brought with them their knowledge to India.

Anyways, what's the fuss with scripts. We are now using Romanized alphabet with its mother the Phoenician alphabet and we are using Hindu Arabic numerals. btw, I am not surprised if the Phoenician alphabet came from the INDIES as well. Primordial Phoenicia is Sundaland accdg to the Brazilian nuclear physicist.

trismegistos

Apr 8 2010, 08:34 AM

QUOTE (martin_nuke @ Apr 7 2010, 08:42 PM)

It was Cory Aquino who removed Spanish from the curriculum not Marcos. The Philippines is still using the Peso which is still the currency in Latin America. Marcos also revived the Sri Vijayaness of the Philippines which I like.

Actually I blame the Marcos and Aquinos for the economic demise of the Philippines. Fidel Ramos was the only president who was able to make the Philippines an economic tiger again until Erap came along that it became a disaster for the Philippine economy. If Marcos is a dictator, Aquino is actually a communist/socialist who like the Philippines to be a Socialist country.

I do not like Villar nor NoyNoy to become the next president I like Gordon to be the next president.

Luxembourg the richest country in EU is 87% Catholic also Australia is also predominantly Catholic.

The richest state in America is California and guess what is their dominant religion?

Necklace amulet, from Bengkulu Province, collection of National Museum of Indonesia, Jakarta. There is 5 square amulets attached on the necklace.

And I surprise Phillipines have Kali Majapahit martial art.... what's the link with Majapahit empire? Here we simply called all of Indonesian traditional martial arts traditions and schools as Pencak Silat as the whole umbrella.

It display unusual body strenght that a body can not be harmed by golok knife.

matigasngulo

Apr 8 2010, 01:23 PM

Agimat = Jimat

ocrapdm

Apr 9 2010, 04:03 AM

QUOTE (martin_nuke @ Apr 8 2010, 09:42 AM)

It was Cory Aquino who removed Spanish from the curriculum not Marcos. The Philippines is still using the Peso which is still the currency in Latin America. Marcos also revived the Sri Vijayaness of the Philippines which I like.

Actually I blame the Marcos and Aquinos for the economic demise of the Philippines. Fidel Ramos was the only president who was able to make the Philippines an economic tiger again until Erap came along that it became a disaster for the Philippine economy. If Marcos is a dictator, Aquino is actually a communist/socialist who like the Philippines to be a Socialist country.

I do not like Villar nor NoyNoy to become the next president I like Gordon to be the next president.

Luxembourg the richest country in EU is 87% Catholic also Australia is also predominantly Catholic.

The richest state in America is California and guess what is their dominant religion?

It was Marcos who first took the initiative in removing Spanish from the curriculum (Spanish was removed by Marcos' Constitution); Aquino finished it.

Before Marcos, the Philippine Peso was in English; today, it is in Filipino.

Twas Marcos who started the Sabah claim, though he should have also included the northern areas of Kalimantan Utara and Palmas Island of Indonesia which historically belongs to the Philippines. (Spratly doesn't historically belong to the Phils).

The economic demise of the Philippines comes from corruption, actually started during the term of Magsaysay. Coincidentally, he was also the first president to start the colorful type of presidential campaigns that we have now. I think there's some connection between the two. Magsaysay was a stooge of CIA officer Landsdale, and he revived the Anti-Chinese and Anti-Indian policies of the American Colonial Period (which led most Filipino-Chinese and Filipino-Indians to hate him up to this day).

Marcos was the one who started massive looting from the country's treasury, although many modern infrastructures today date from his term (NLEx, SLEx, completion of EDSA, Manila LRT, PICC, and many hotel chains). In the end, he was betrayed by the IMF and the American government, forcing him to resign and hand over power to another USA stooge: Aquino - who was meant to be a transitional president.

In reality, the Philippines is actually more of a client state or a protectorate of the USA; it isn't really completely independent, more like Palau or Federated States of Micronesia. All Philippine presidential candidates are always summoned by the US government to present their platforms and plans.

---

If Gordon wins, the Philippines will vacillate again toward the USA and the gains in the "Asianization" of the Philippines will lose ground. Of course he has American blood (just like Gibo, too), and naturally, he will tend to side with the USA instead of other Asian countries.

Luxembourg (a Catholic country) may be rich, but it is an exception rather than a general trend.

Australia is majority Catholic, although a substantial portion of Australians are Protestants; MOST of its Prime Ministers are Protestants, too, mostly Presbyterian and Anglican. Out of 18 Christian Prime Ministers, 12 are Protestant and only 6 are Catholic.

CA became the richest state because it is where many large businesses are located (e.g., Silicon Valley, Hollywood, etc.); most of these are founded by Jewish Americans who are the ruling class. The large Hispanic population of CA (4 out of 10 Californians) account for the large Catholic population.

filipinoy

Apr 9 2010, 03:13 PM

QUOTE (trismegistos @ Apr 8 2010, 06:26 AM)

For e.g., a colonial minded individual, will speak of the lexicon of Tagalog as "borrowed" from malay but to another individual like filipinoy would say.

because if those happened to be loan words, then that would also mean tagalog have loan words from hawaiian, malagasy, ami & 1000 other languages

martin_nuke

Apr 9 2010, 04:29 PM

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Apr 9 2010, 04:03 AM)

Twas Marcos who started the Sabah claim, though he should have also included the northern areas of Kalimantan Utara and Palmas Island of Indonesia which historically belongs to the Philippines. (Spratly doesn't historically belong to the Phils).

Historically Sabah was a territory of the Philippines from 1521–1898. The Sultan of the Philippines still own Sabah because the British Borneo East India Company was renting Sabah from the Sultanates. When the British mandate claimed that Sabah is now part of Malaysia, they were not giving or just giving less rental fees to the Sultanates which made them furious so they made a deal and asked help from Marcos to reclaim Sabah in return that they will give some parts of Sabah to Marcos. The only way to reclaim Sabah is to make a referendum there and make the large Filipino Community there to decide where it really belongs to.

The Spratly was a different case because it was claimed by the Philippines under UNCLOS laws which is legal. Spratlys is not actually livable they were just stop overs for fishermen the reason why it is disputed is because what is under it which is oil. I hope that someday the the Spratlys would be underwetar so nobody can claim it anymore but the area of water will still ours under the UNCLOS laws.

The Marianas should also be ours which historically was part of the Philippines which was only divided the the Americans. Remember that the Marianas is within the Philippine tectonic plate.

filipinoy

Apr 9 2010, 04:41 PM

^theres a municipality of a couple hundred people called kalayaan on pag-asa island

martin_nuke

Apr 9 2010, 04:44 PM

QUOTE (filipinoy @ Apr 9 2010, 04:41 PM)

^theres a municipality of a couple hundred people called kalayaan on pag-asa island

There is also a Smart cellsite there but they just bring supplies there like food and commodities which is expensive but they just cannot give up Kalayaan. I was offered to live and annex Kalayaan but I realize that it would not be an easy place to live in.

trismegistos

Apr 9 2010, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (filipinoy @ Apr 9 2010, 03:13 PM)

because if those happened to be loan words, then that would also mean tagalog have loan words from hawaiian, malagasy, ami & 1000 other languages

lolTha's both hilarious and illogical. What would be apt and scientific(in a typical Lindsay style) would be...The fairer-skinned chinesey eyed(Chinese looking) AMI invaders and traders of Taiwan(who themselves were pushed to the south by the invading Hans) went to the Philippines, Hawaii and Indonesia, and along the way found the curly haired dark-skinned Melanesians, Aetas as desirable and cross-breed with the latter producing the beautiful people of the Polynesians and the brown race, the Malays and bringing or loaning them the Austronesian words. Oops, that's hilarious also but that's the debunked Out of Taiwan theory(but still favorable among the academe esp. the linguist) http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=223334 . As ridiculous as the debunked racist ARYAN invasion theory.

trismegistos

Apr 9 2010, 09:18 PM

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Apr 9 2010, 04:03 AM)

It was Marcos who first took the initiative in removing Spanish from the curriculum (Spanish was removed by Marcos' Constitution); Aquino finished it.

Before Marcos, the Philippine Peso was in English; today, it is in Filipino.

Twas Marcos who started the Sabah claim, though he should have also included the northern areas of Kalimantan Utara and Palmas Island of Indonesia which historically belongs to the Philippines. (Spratly doesn't historically belong to the Phils).

The economic demise of the Philippines comes from corruption, actually started during the term of Magsaysay. Coincidentally, he was also the first president to start the colorful type of presidential campaigns that we have now. I think there's some connection between the two. Magsaysay was a stooge of CIA officer Landsdale, and he revived the Anti-Chinese and Anti-Indian policies of the American Colonial Period (which led most Filipino-Chinese and Filipino-Indians to hate him up to this day).

Marcos was the one who started massive looting from the country's treasury, although many modern infrastructures today date from his term (NLEx, SLEx, completion of EDSA, Manila LRT, PICC, and many hotel chains). In the end, he was betrayed by the IMF and the American government, forcing him to resign and hand over power to another USA stooge: Aquino - who was meant to be a transitional president.

In reality, the Philippines is actually more of a client state or a protectorate of the USA; it isn't really completely independent, more like Palau or Federated States of Micronesia. All Philippine presidential candidates are always summoned by the US government to present their platforms and plans.

---

If Gordon wins, the Philippines will vacillate again toward the USA and the gains in the "Asianization" of the Philippines will lose ground. Of course he has American blood (just like Gibo, too), and naturally, he will tend to side with the USA instead of other Asian countries.

Luxembourg (a Catholic country) may be rich, but it is an exception rather than a general trend.

Australia is majority Catholic, although a substantial portion of Australians are Protestants; MOST of its Prime Ministers are Protestants, too, mostly Presbyterian and Anglican. Out of 18 Christian Prime Ministers, 12 are Protestant and only 6 are Catholic.

CA became the richest state because it is where many large businesses are located (e.g., Silicon Valley, Hollywood, etc.); most of these are founded by Jewish Americans who are the ruling class. The large Hispanic population of CA (4 out of 10 Californians) account for the large Catholic population.

I see. So your choice of the presidency is still within the context of Philippines for the East Asians.

The people who would do the looting more actually occured right after Edsa, when Cory Aquino allowed her Kamag-anak Inc. to bankrupt various state controlled corporations and national utility companies then the oligarchs would have them(Cory gave the sequestered and state-owned Meralco to the Lopezes for no extra cost) and some Marcos cronies like El Capitan, Lucio Tan, bought some of these and declared them as all for themselves. READ THIS THREAD... http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/showthread.php?t=430188

Marcos wealth came from the so called Yama$hita treasure(Remember the Golden Buddha of Rogelio Roxas) and not much from corruption as what the saintly Corystas say and he literally bought the presidency with tons of cash to the voters.

About the Spratleys and the Sabah claim, that was sufficiently answered by the above posters. The next thing we know, China would claim the entire South China sea.

The demise of the Philippines occured during the decontrol which started during the Macapagal presidency. The Philippines had been employing decontrol since the early '60s, leading to the results seen today: chronic trade deficits, a contracted manufacturing sector, heavy reliance on foreigners for loans, and much of economic growth based on consumer spending. Not surprisingly, the U.S. has the same characteristics.

In contrast, Asian nations employed protectionism. And once they became Industrialized(NIC's) and that's when they opened up.

TO REITERATE(WHICH ANSWERED HOW WE BECAME THE LAGGARD OR THE SICKMAN OF ASIA):

We have successive pro-globalist presidents with their IMF-WB-WTO mantra of GLOBALIZATION, DEREGULATION, LIBERALIZATION AND PRIVATIZATIONS.

One such pro Globalist president that we had in the past is FVR...He signed many sovereign guarantee contracts which accounted for the high cost of electriciy and add to that the failure to operate the BNPP which could have solved the more than 12 hours of brown outs during the Cory administration which caused many factories to closed. No industrialization will take place in a country with sky high electricity rates like what we have now. Pang CALL CENTER ECONOMY lang. Such industries that rely heavily in electricity will not be able to compete GLOBALLY (in the so called level playing field of the very UNFAIR FREE Trade) and will soon close down just like what had happen to our various factories leading to so many jobs lost. It's so easy to see the vicious cycle that would ensue, with corruption getting more rampant, increasing prostitution and hunger, a resulting substandard health care, more crime, etc and thus, we ended up as a NATION of SERVANTS and the SICKMAN OF ASIA.

ocrapdm

Apr 10 2010, 01:30 AM

QUOTE (martin_nuke @ Apr 10 2010, 05:29 AM)

Historically Sabah was a territory of the Philippines from 1521–1898. The Sultan of the Philippines still own Sabah because the British Borneo East India Company was renting Sabah from the Sultanates. When the British mandate claimed that Sabah is now part of Malaysia, they were not giving or just giving less rental fees to the Sultanates which made them furious so they made a deal and asked help from Marcos to reclaim Sabah in return that they will give some parts of Sabah to Marcos. The only way to reclaim Sabah is to make a referendum there and make the large Filipino Community there to decide where it really belongs to.

The Spratly was a different case because it was claimed by the Philippines under UNCLOS laws which is legal. Spratlys is not actually livable they were just stop overs for fishermen the reason why it is disputed is because what is under it which is oil. I hope that someday the the Spratlys would be underwetar so nobody can claim it anymore but the area of water will still ours under the UNCLOS laws.

The Marianas should also be ours which historically was part of the Philippines which was only divided the the Americans. Remember that the Marianas is within the Philippine tectonic plate.

There was already a UN-sponsored referendum in Sabah which unfortunately rejected Philippine sovereignty in favor of Malaysia. The last resort is to bring up the matter in the International Courts of Justice, which Malaysia doesn't want.

Marianas Islands and Guam are also historically Visayan (Chamorro is said to be a dialect of Visayan) - the language only deviated later under Spanish rule when Carolinians influenced the Chamorro toward "Micronesianization". A Filipino governor ruled Marianas Islands until 1898. Up to this day, Guamanian cuisine is essentially Filipino; so are some of the surnames and a lot of their words. The US isn't going to give these two territories; and frankly, the Chamorros would pick US statehood instead of being a province of the Philippines.

Even Filipinos are looked down by the indigenous Chamorros of Marianas and Guam (although Filipinos are now the majority in Northern Marianas Islands). The Filos there would prolly vote for US statehood since the primary reason they went to the NMI is actually the hope of being US citizens through residency. Some Pinoys here still even dream of US statehood!

ocrapdm

Apr 10 2010, 01:45 AM

QUOTE (trismegistos @ Apr 10 2010, 10:18 AM)

I see. So your choice of the presidency is still within the context of Philippines for the East Asians.

The people who would do the looting more actually occured right after Edsa, when Cory Aquino allowed her Kamag-anak Inc. to bankrupt various state controlled corporations and national utility companies then the oligarchs would have them(Cory gave the sequestered and state-owned Meralco to the Lopezes for no extra cost) and some Marcos cronies like El Capitan, Lucio Tan, bought some of these and declared them as all for themselves. READ THIS THREAD... http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/showthread.php?t=430188

Marcos wealth came from the so called Yama$hita treasure(Remember the Golden Buddha of Rogelio Roxas) and not much from corruption as what the saintly Corystas say and he literally bought the presidency with tons of cash to the voters.

There is no other hope or future for the Philippines unless it joins a confederation of East Asian nations (including ASEAN of course). It's the only way to stop corruption because without external checks, the politicians would continue doing their own way.

It was actually Imelda, rather than Ferdinand, as well as Ferdinand's friends (e.g., Danding, etc.) who spearheaded corruption in the country.

In Cory's case, it was her relatives and supporters who amassed wealth obtained by the gov't during the Marcos presidency (e.g., Meralco, ABS-CBN, PLDT, Philtranco, etc.). It was also during her rule that nepotism gained a widespread following in the country. (In Paranaque City, the mayor [Bernabe] is running as a reelectionist candidate, while his son is now a councilor candidate. In QC, the mayor's [Belmonte] daughter is running for vice-mayor. Congresswoman Nanette Daza has her daughter running for councilor.)

QUOTE (trismegistos @ Apr 10 2010, 10:18 AM)

About the Spratleys and the Sabah claim, that was sufficiently answered by the above posters. The next thing we know, China would claim the entire South China sea.

The demise of the Philippines occured during the decontrol which started during the Macapagal presidency. The Philippines had been employing decontrol since the early '60s, leading to the results seen today: chronic trade deficits, a contracted manufacturing sector, heavy reliance on foreigners for loans, and much of economic growth based on consumer spending. Not surprisingly, the U.S. has the same characteristics.

In contrast, Asian nations employed protectionism. And once they became Industrialized(NIC's) and that's when they opened up.

TO REITERATE(WHICH ANSWERED HOW WE BECAME THE LAGGARD OR THE SICKMAN OF ASIA):

We have successive pro-globalist presidents with their IMF-WB-WTO mantra of GLOBALIZATION, DEREGULATION, LIBERALIZATION AND PRIVATIZATIONS.

One such pro Globalist president that we had in the past is FVR...He signed many sovereign guarantee contracts which accounted for the high cost of electriciy and add to that the failure to operate the BNPP which could have solved the more than 12 hours of brown outs during the Cory administration which caused many factories to closed. No industrialization will take place in a country with sky high electricity rates like what we have now. Pang CALL CENTER ECONOMY lang. Such industries that rely heavily in electricity will not be able to compete GLOBALLY (in the so called level playing field of the very UNFAIR FREE Trade) and will soon close down just like what had happen to our various factories leading to so many jobs lost. It's so easy to see the vicious cycle that would ensue, with corruption getting more rampant, increasing prostitution and hunger, a resulting substandard health care, more crime, etc and thus, we ended up as a NATION of SERVANTS and the SICKMAN OF ASIA.

Actually, the demise of the Philippines started since independence = Harry Truman's double-crossing of the Philippines.

The IMF-WB-WTO is in direct control of economy of the Philippines, which actually is just nominally independent and in reality a vassal state of the USA.

Historical facts do show that majority of the Spratlys were already discovered and owned by Chinese and Vietnamese empires throughout history, although the claim of the Philippines over some islands near Palawan does have some merit. It was last owned by France which does speak about its previous protectorate status under the Vietnamese.

filipinoy

Apr 10 2010, 02:35 AM

QUOTE (trismegistos @ Apr 9 2010, 06:26 PM)

lolTha's both hilarious and illogical. What would be apt and scientific(in a typical Lindsay style) would be...The fairer-skinned chinesey eyed(Chinese looking) AMI invaders and traders of Taiwan(who themselves were pushed to the south by the invading Hans) went to the Philippines, Hawaii and Indonesia, and along the way found the curly haired dark-skinned Melanesians, Aetas as desirable and cross-breed with the latter producing the beautiful people of the Polynesians and the brown race, the Malays and bringing or loaning them the Austronesian words. Oops, that's hilarious also but that's the debunked Out of Taiwan theory(but still favorable among the academe esp. the linguist) http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=223334 . As ridiculous as the debunked racist ARYAN invasion theory.

There is no other hope or future for the Philippines unless it joins a confederation of East Asian nations (including ASEAN of course). It's the only way to stop corruption because without external checks, the politicians would continue doing their own way.

I think joining the East Asian nations will not solve the problems of the Philippines that will only be a new window of opportunity of new curruption and exploitation of the Philippines. Look what happened to Africa it became more corrupt and chaotic. As for ASEAN nations Malaysia and Indonesia does not want to join or planning to join the East Asian Nations.

The Philippines needs an new leader with principles who is not corrupt and God fearing.

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