In the beginning of Vespers we experience Revelstone as by far the most martial place we have thus far seen in the Land. There are murder holes in the roof of the entrance and all the people in sight are either soldiers or Bloodguard. Covenant is put in a tower room the door of which cannot be opened from the inside. We hear the Bloodguard have made the decision to put his there. Do the Bloodguard run this place in the name of the Lords? Later the first impression is turned on its head when we see the Lords' commitment to peace in a ceremony that conspiciously makes no reference to religion as the term is usually understood. We learn there are not that many soldiers after all. Suddenly the situations starts to seem dangerous in a completely different and a lot scarier way. Covenant remembers the words of Lord Foul and if it hadn't been for his vertigo would have uttered them against his will then and there, which would have likely had a disastrous effect on the morale of the populace of the Lord's Keep. I have always maintained there was magic involved in the message.

The next day in the Council of Lords we hear Foamfollower's message of hope. It is really sweet to hear how the Lords are prepared to give up their greatest allies. No realpolitik here. This place is a utopia. Still, there are two ways to interpret the ancient prophecy, as even Foamfollower remarks.

Then Covenant is called to deliver his message of despair. It is quoted in text word for word. We have heard it before but a little refreshing of the memory is good. The message sounds more ominous now when we know what is at the stake. With Covenant's changed voice and all the effect on the characters is even more profound. Luckily Foamfollower is at hand with his ability for laughter.

We learn the basics of the Bloodguard. Their immortality reminds me of the long life of the Lords. The Old Lords could live over a thousand years in service of the Land (we don't know the limit as Kevin died violently) and since the Bloodguard don't live for anything except service they seem indeed to be immortal in truth. They are proud of their service and just like Atiaran they want to be perfect. Even though they are doing a better job of it, striving for perfection is not the easy way to happiness. The Bloodguard have done an amazing job of it and still are not completely free of doubt. And even if they were completely perfect I deem they still wouldn't be all that much happier.

In the end of the sequence Covenant's role as the white gold wielder is revealed. True to the tendency they showed earlier with Foamfollower's message the Lords are very optimistic about the revelation. They clearly haven't had much experience with things turning out the bad way although they are not dumb as their sensing of Covenant's omissions shows. Only Osondrea remembers the "damn" part in "save or damn".

What a rambling essay... I was planning on a character study of Osondrea I promised you earlier, but as it happens I didn't quite remember where the chapter lines were, and so Osondrea will be delayed until next week.

Good and evil are so much the same regardless of the setting. Covenant , perhaps unwittingly, utters the words of doom given to him by Foul, communicating Foul's evil plans to the people of the land. Does he abet Lord Foul by passing on this message? Is he part of Foul's plan for the destruction of the land? Or, is he truly on the side of goodness and thus help the Land by disclosing this warning! These questions haunt him throughout both trilogies.

Does anyone see a similarity to the messages given by captured members of the Taliban? They tell us of their hatred for others, especially Americans, and sometimes offer specific plans of destruction aimed at us.
Some of the warnings come from members who have since regretted being part of the violence expressed by the Taliban.It is hard to know if heeding their warnings does more for peace or war.

We would do well to heed the words of the oath of peace. (Incidently, I believe the oath of peace is not unique to the Chronicles. I saw it somewhere else, perhaps somewhere in Asian philosophy. Has anyone else come across it?)

I don't think ur essay was rambling @ all, my Lady! A very elagant and beautiful assesment! Were my Finnish as eloquent as ur command of the English language! U have summed up most of the "meat and potatoes" of Vespers. Were we that reverent, humble and caring 2 our own Earth! I think every budding biologist, ecologist, politician and philosopher should have that chapter as required reading! Indeed all inhabitants of our world!

Certian sects of Chinese Shinto-ism state that it is a true warrior that walks away from a fight.

I agree that TC seemed to be under some compunction to deliver Fouls message. It struck me more at this reading than previously.. its made fairly clear i think.. it's verbatim, without him consciously seeming to remember it.. and abrupt. Regarding strouts comments about serving Fouls ends. The extent of his manipulations struck me most forcefully [so far] with the treatment of Pietten and his mother as uneccessary bait in the trap at Soaring Woodhelven. That's his job though isn't it. Despair, to 'turn all your choices to dust'. He plays a damned deep game.. but betrays himself by showing his hand so clearly. By going to such extravagant lengths to deprive the people of the Land of their morale - he reminds us of our capacity for hope. And as we know, that's going to be pretty important.. to remember that there are choices other than those he would have us believe remain. Did that make sense ? Not sure myself

"Laugh, Covenant," Foamfollower whispered hoarsely. "You have told us the end of all things. Now help us. Laugh."

Covenant replied dully, "You laugh. 'Joy is in the ears that hear.' I can't do it."

To his astonishment, Foamfollower did laugh. He lifted his head and made a strangled, garish noise in his throat that sounded like sobbing; but in a moment the sound loosened, clarified, slowly took on the tone of indomitable humor. The terrible exertion appalled Covenant.

As Foamfollower laughed, the first shock of dismay passed from the Council. Graudually, Prothall raised his head. "The Unhomed are a blessing to the Land," he murmured.

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I don't have much else to add. Maybe I'll find something to say once the discussion gets going.

its interesting how Foamfollowers laughter is reminiscent of TC's own self .. before he acquired leperosy ..

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Laughing - now there's a real insight ... Did I do a whole life's laughing in that little time?

He felt that he was asking an important question.

He had laughed when his novel had been accepted - laughed at the shadows of deep and silent thoughts that had been shifted like sea currents in Roger's face - laughed over the finished products of his book - laughed at its presence on the best seller lists. Thousands of things large and small had filled him with glee.

a very different Covenant than the post leperosy Covenant we come to know ..

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When Joan had asked him what he found so funny, he was only able to reply that every breath charged him with ideas for his next book. His lungs bristled with imagination and energy. He chuckled whenever he had more joy than he could contain.

Its interesting that in the Land he meets a character the epitome of himself in his younger trouble free days .._________________health and healing

Well, as a therapist once told me as my marriage was falling apart, "It's good to be angry. It'll keep you from becoming depressed."

We've psychoanalyzed TC elsewhere on these boards, and I think the consensus is that the guy's clinically depressed. In these chapters, he's using his anger as a shield against what used to be called a nervous breakdown. Not only has he lost his health and his family, but he's also possibly losing his grip on reality. His anger is the only thing keeping him moving.

That's not to say that TC isn't a royal pain in the patootie during these chapters. Considering that this is when he begins to forge his friendships with both Foamfollower and Mhoram, and theirs with him -- it makes you kind of wonder what they see in the guy. And it's not just that they're being nice to him because he wears the white gold (and could blow them away if he ever figured out how to use it) or because they pity him. They actually *like* TC. Go figure.

Here's a bone for y'all to chew on: What makes TC likable here? We'll get a better glimpse of the answer to this question next week. (Yes, I've read ahead -- so shoot me!) But for now -- what makes Foamfollower in particular decide Covenant is a good guy?

And speaking of Foamfollower, I really like the scene where TC delivers his message of doom, and then Foamfollower combats it with laughter.

I always felt that FF and Mhoram liked TC because they had the capacity to understand him, more so than the other characters. That's why they became his closest friends. Mhoram especially since his compassionate nature and wisdom helps him see beyond the surface of things. And FF simply because of his joy in life and that I don't feel he would presume to be the judge of anyone. However, could anyone of us miss the pain that is blindingly apparent in TC? Some of us would be able to tolerate him and some of us wouldn't depending on our individual abilities, i.e., how patient we are. And anyway, isn't that the paradox of the white gold? Wouldn't anyone who was truly the white gold be the very epitome of the paradox? I hope I didn't ramble and I hope I made sense! _________________Have you ever been going somewhere with a crowd and you're certain it's the wrong road and you tell them, but they won't listen, so you just have to plod along in what you know is the wrong direction till somebody more important gets the same idea?

wow Caamora .. very apt!! YOu are soo right .. Mhoram and FF because of their individual personality traits - compassion joy of life or whatever .. were able to understand TC better than anyone else .. and it is a 'type' of our own ability or not .. to appreciate TC.

I agree he was annoying .. but he was in pain .. and aliantha is spot on .. he did use anger as a shield .. to protect him from further hurt and disappointment ..

I still see FF as an expression of his pre-leperosy self .. even though I dont totally accept the 'the Land is a dream - or an expression of TC's subconscious mind' theory ..

For the same reasons we have argued before .. but FF is representative of TC's trouble-free earlier happy days self .. in so many ways .. his laughter being the biggest most relevant way imo._________________health and healing

The one I've always been amazed at is Bannor. TC seemed to always save up his anger and take it out on Bannor especially. (Maybe he was a "safe" target?) But Bannor ALWAYS SHOWED THE PATIENCE OF A SAINT with TC. Some of the things he said to Bannor made me want to cry.

From chapter one: "Covenant looked and saw an old man in a dirty ocher robe standing half a block away. He was mumbling, almost singing a dim nonsense tune; and his mouth hung open, though his lips and jaw did not move to shape his mutterings. His long tattered hair and beard fluttered around his head in the light breeze. His face was lifted to the sky; he seemed to be staring directly at the sun. In his left hand he held a wooden beggar-bowl. His right hand clutched a long wooden staff." and from chapter two: "Without another word, he turned and moved away. He leaned on the staff like an exhausted prophet, worn out with uttering visions. His staff rang curiously on the sidewalk, as if the wood were harder than cement."
We move into the Land now, in chapter ten, in our visit to Soaring Woodhelvin. " For a moment Baradakas hesitated, as if pondering how much he should say. Then he reached int othe back room, picked up a smooth staff nearly six feet long, and sat down on the bed across from Covenant. As he spoke, he began polishing the white wood of the staff with a soft cloth."
And now we arrive at Revelstone in chapters twelve and thirteen.

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Three sentries stood in an abutment over the gates. Their appearance caught Covenant's attention; they did not resemble the riders of the Warward. They were like Stonedowners in size and build, but they were flat-faced and brown-skinned, with curly hair cropped short. They wore ocher tunics

and then later that night:

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and Covenant looked past him at Lord Mhoram. The Lord was a lean man about Covenant's height. He wore a long robe the color of High Lord's Furl

I love Donaldson's writing. It's filled with all sorts of subtle details that all mesh together in quiet little ways. Not a word is ever wasted! Here is the Creator of that world, dressed in a Lord style robe, in the color of the Bloodguard, carrying a Hirebrand's staff. What a lovely little tribute to the people in his creation! _________________Love as thou wilt.

I can relate to what Bannor has to go through. Mhoram and Foamfolower are truly great guys, who CHOOSE to befriend and attempt to emotionally heal TC. Bannor gets him because its his job. I've had to deal with difficult coworkers and customers before, and its not easy keeping professional under those circunstances. Bannor, I salute you!

SHFF definitely chose to be his friend. But did Mhoram? At first LM just showed Covenant respect (Im talking really early in LFB) but after showing him respect, the two grew onto each other. Thats my opinion anyway...

i made these points in the is Morham sexy thread lol .. but basically as camorra says FF and Morhams perceptiveness and good nature give them more of a handle to TC than most other characters.

But more than that in Morhams case.. and please offer your thoughts on this, i think Morhams relationship with TC parallels his own journey to understanding power in the Land.

Remember, Morham is perpetually frustrated by his inability to understand why the current crop of Lords seem so weak compared to Kevins time. Why cant they penetrate the meanings of the Lore etc. On some level, i think Morham is bound to TC by a recognition of the relationship between passion and power. I think he senses the riddles answer in TC .. and as any of those who arent reading these now for the first time will know - with good reason. This probably isnt the right part of forum for this debate.. but this fascinates me. I really think SRD meant this to be understood..

Very astute, Kaseryn. I like that analogy. As far as Bannor goes, I never really saw him as a "friend" of TC. Bannor protected TC because it was his duty and his vow and it would be beneath him to do anything but his best to fulfill his duty. (does that make sense?)

I agree that Bannor was a safe target for TC to lash out at. I don't think that anything TC said to Bannor hurt Bannor at all. Bannor was above anything as petty as TC's anger. The Bloodguard had supreme self-esteem and looked down their noses at others, and justifyably so since I don't know anyone personally who could "decide" not to sleep or "choose" not to die! I think Bannor knew that TC had no control over the white gold and was, therefore, not really a threat. TC simply didn't apply himself the way that Bannor felt he should.

And yet, SRD still makes Bannor a "companion", much like Vain who never says a word but makes his presence felt.

I love Bannor because he doesn't forgive TC for all the nonsense that he puts everyone through. I always saw Bannor as a character for the reader to side with, if you know what I mean. Bannor made it ok to be unforgiving toward TC, for lack of any better way to put it!_________________Have you ever been going somewhere with a crowd and you're certain it's the wrong road and you tell them, but they won't listen, so you just have to plod along in what you know is the wrong direction till somebody more important gets the same idea?

I have a bunch of little stuff to say about these really important chapters. I want to say that I agree with those who say that TC has some sort of compulsion or magic placed on him when he delivers the message. I also agree that TC is probably clinically depressed. Not all depressed persons curl up in a ball. Some get filled with rage, and that can sometimes be a key symptom when diagnosing it. I would also like to ask How Old Are Mhoram's Parents?? He's thirtiesh, from what I can recall.

Spoiler:

And when he's seventiesh doesn't he appear to be in his late forties/early fifties? And his parents appear to be quite old!

It seems to me that Lord Tamarantha would be long past normal childbearing years when he was born, even for a lord. I'm wondering if this is supposed to remind us of Abraham and Sarah in the Bible? The promised child coming so late beyond all of their hope? I do think that Bannor gets hurt by TC's mean needling. That's when he does those long, slow blinks or looks a little less dispassionate. I think it actually is a bit good for Bannor. It makes him think, and he becomes quite different from

Spoiler:

the two First Marks before him. Mhoram thinks to himself in TPTP about how much more helpful Bannor had been than his two predecessors).

Also, the relationship between Bannor and TC is very important for another reason. yes, it is all that Caamora said, that Bannor is the one person who doesn't fall over himself to forgive TC. But also, I think Bannor is

Spoiler:

a trained bard of his people. Remember the boat at Earthroot and how Bannor starts reciting some long poem in Huruchai? I think he's a bard or poet or oral historian, whatever his people call them. In the second chronicles the Hurucahi are always saying to TC "Didn't Bannor tell you that? Did Bannor mention this?" etc. I think he goes home at the end of TPTP and teaches his people all about the Lords and TC. That's a very important link between the first and second chronicles, one of the few bits of truth and continuity in the Land.

I also think that relationship between TC and Mhoram is one of the most important things going on in the first three, and possibly all six books.( I'm still not convinced about the homosexuality factor, though. ) I find it very interesting that during their first meeting in the Tower, Mhoram tells TC how weak the Lords are and says

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Alas, it is in my heart that we will want other power now.

And at the time, TC is this dangerous and mysterious prisoner! I would love to know what Mhoram saw in his two visions, the one that caused him to call for the other Lords shortly before the moon turned red, and the other vision that causes him to send out Quaan to rescue Foamfollower and TC in the boat. Did he see TC as a source of power? Does he think that TC is a source of power because he can't "see" him?? The last thing I want to bring up is all of the races in the Land. We have several races of humans, the Stonedowners, the Woodhelvin, the Huruchai, and the Giants. We also have the Waynhim and the ur-Viles and the Cavewights (though I'm not sure if the cavewights would count as an intelligent race ) I'm wondering if all of these races might be some sort of statement in a social issue type of way, as America was simmering with racial tensions in the sixities and seventies. He covers feminism in a lovely and quiet way by showing all sorts of competent women, is this his way of showing that the diffferent races are all equal and important?

Spoiler:

After all, in the end, all of the races, other than the hapless cavewights are necessary to save the Land in either the first or the second chronicles. Even the ur-Viles.

interesting post duchess .. I have always found TCTC to be a social commentary or critique .. that through his fantasy concepts he makes unmistakable statements about our world .. politics .. and our humanity!

this is one of the very things that draws me to SRD's writings .. imho he was ahead of his time .. there really aren't racial divisions in the Land .. and to me SRD provides a blue-print to counter the issue of racism this world faces .. the fact that the races of the Land preserve a respect for each other and their several cultural differences .. each being aware of them and demonstrating appropriate respect for them ..

As far as issues re: sexism .. SRD presents a egalitarian society not just in respect to the racial diversity that exists within it .. but also in regards to gender. As you rightly say duchess .. SRD writes women as competent beings .. unlike most [with the exception of Tolkien] who at that time and some even to this day .. who write women as weaklings in need of protection and in more risque writings their role soley in fulfilling the sexual and domestic needs of their male counterparts.

SRD also imho .. speaks regarding religous tolerance too .. he speaks out against organised religion and more on spirituality .. and the power of creation ..

In this he also imho draws a unmistakable parallel between spiritual and environmental concepts .. His commentary would be regarded today as environmentally astute .. the relationship between the indigenous races of the Land and their environment is so inter-related - one can not survive without the other ..

I love SRD's creation of a world where its inhabitants are deeply and cognizantly connected with their environment and it is their primary concern to protect and preserve it.

I absolutely agree .. SRD does present social commentary/ critique .. he imho does makes unmistakable statements that relate to our world .. infact his creation of the Land .. seems to be a world with a socio-political and environmental system enviable at best .. I have always retained the opinion that his creation is in answer to the lack in our world .._________________health and healing