Hi, I've noticed that a couple of movies that have Ukrainian language as the original audio of the dialogue are listed incorrectly in IMDb. I've submitted request to those titles a couple of months ago and recently learned that couple of my submissions were unfortunately declined citing "Unable to verify.".

Could you please help me, how should I best proceed in correcting these submissions? Here's my dillema:1) Should I re-submit my submition on imdb.com, addting additional materials (e.g., add a new submission, this time including links to the movie on Youtube/other sites where Ukrainain audio can be clearly heard throughout the movie)?2) Should I just post here on IMDb.com community board the ID numbers for those submissions and list the links to the movie on Youtube/other sites where Ukrainain audio can be clearly heard throughout the movie)?

Please advice which method (#1 or #2) is more efficient. For your convinience, here are the submissions I'm talking about (they were all done from my imdb.com User ID: rkononenko, where I have re-submitted the entry, I've clearly labeled that with )

== Section 1: Movies that were originally shot in Ukrainain, but are incorrectly labled on IMDb ==

This is one of the films from Dovzhenko Film Studio, whose original Ukrainian audio-track is currently considered lost and only Russian dubbing version has been found thus far. However, original audio for this film is indeed in Ukrainian; when watching the dubbed-into-Russian version, one can readily see that all charecters move their lips in Ukrainian.

This
movie was actually shot in Russian, and origianl Russian audio track
for the movie is lost and only Ukrainian dubbing has been found thus
far.

Original Submission id: Contribution
#190224-171047-773000
(rejected)

Revised submission id: Contribution #190414-021451-021000 (pending)

Proof
that this feature moview has origignal audio in Russian:

1) See article about the film on Ukrainian Wikipedia, specifically the section entitled "Ukrainian dubibing": http://bit.ly/2IgOOO3 . That section has references from an article that quotes movie co-director when he explains why they decided to shoot film in Russian originally (and release the Russian-language version in Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia) and create a dubbed Ukrainian version in post-production for Ukraine's theatrical release: http://web.archive.org/web/20181226173135/https://www.rbc.ua/ukr/lite/kino/zykovoy-fakap-chyotkie-ak... (in Ukrainian). Besides lok at the section entitled "Film reviews" on Ukrainian Wikipedia article http://bit.ly/2GeBNkx - it has gives references to numerious film reviews, where film critics specifically call-out the low quality of Ukrainian dubbing.

This was originally shot is in Russian. See film on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkfD9dlszak (it is in Russian, and you can clearly see that charecters move their lips in Russian, so it's the original audio in which the moview was shot)

* original submission ID: #180116-051820-704000* re-submitted ID: #190414-070341-263000* proof
that film was in Russian (original audio): See Ukrainian Wikipedia artcle where it clearly says that this movie was originally shot in Russian and only later dubbed into Ukrainian: http://bit.ly/2UfosxE . Also you if you watch the moview on Megogo, it's immedeately obvious that the movie was originally shot in Russian: all charecters move their lips pronouncing Russian words: https://megogo.net/ua/view/4181051-konkursant-smertonosne-shou.html

*
proof
that film was in Russian (original audio): See Ukrainian Wikipedia
artcle where it clearly says that this movie was originally shot in
Russian and only later dubbed into Ukrainian: http://bit.ly/2ItcDRY. Also you if you watch the movie on Youtube, you can hear that all dialogues are spoken in Russian: all charecters move their
lips pronouncing Russian words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1SuGuCh1Fw;

Submission #18: Illyuziya strakha (2008)* imdb link: https://contribute.imdb.com/title/tt1334009* original ID: #180116-174527-186000* re-submitted ID: # 190414-081418-001000
proof that film was in Russian (original audio): See Ukrainian Wikipedia artcle where it clearly says that this movie was originally shot in Russian and only later dubbed into Ukrainian: http://bit.ly/2ImpLJw Also you if you watch the movie on Youtube, you can hear that all dialogues are spoken in Russian: all charecters move their lips pronouncing Russian words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc5L9eewWUo ; Also you can see that for Ukrainian theatrical release, there was a version created with Ukrainian dubbing, since it was mentioned repeatedly in Ukrainian press, e.g., https://www.umoloda.kiev.ua/number/1270/164/44972/

This movie is of Ukrainian production, but originally in Russian language, and then dubbed into Ukrainian. We can find both versions on Megogo (the end titles in Russian):https://megogo.net/ru/view/17930-shum-vetra.htmlhttps://megogo.net/ua/view/17930-shum-vitru.htmlAs a native speaker I see the lip positions of actors correspond to Russian speaking as original. Moreover, there are some words used that are not native for Ukrainian, e.g. the name "Aliosha" -- it sounds in both versions, including Ukrainian dub.

I would challenge you on this one, MAthePA. When watching Ukrainian-audio version of "Shum vitru", it's clear that at least a large number of phrases are pronounced in Ukrainian originally (at leas based on my viewing of the movie); I don't doubt that it's possible that Dovzhenko Film Studio invited a couple of Russsian speakers into the moview and dubbed-them-over into Urkainian in post-production. However, I would still consider this a full-fledged originally Ukrainian audio film, given historical precedent for such cases.

ps. End titles in Russian doesn't mean anything => dozens of Ukrainina-language movies were considered lost for decades due to USSR's policy of removing Ukrainian langauge films from wide circulation. E.g., for "Za dvoma zaiziamy" for instance, the end titles are also in Russian https://megogo.net/ua/view/14775-za-dvoma-zaycyami.html => but that just means that the version of video w/ Ukrainian video hasn't been restored yet (it 100% exists, it's just a matter of restoring it).

Hi MAthePA, text imprints are not "part of the film audio track", therefore I'm largely agaist includign "Russian" as the 2nd langauge in the credits. The fact that there exist a very low quality Russian voice-over for this movie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feeX-VEcu2Y created as a bootlet, illegally), doesn't NOT warrant whatsover adding Russian as a 2nd language in credits.

Please read, then think, then tell. OK?"Russian as a second language is very doubtful" in my opinion. What's the point for you arguing this with me? You may keep your reasons for editors when they come here and (if) tell you that Russian is left as the second one. I'm not an editor, I'm a contributor as you are.

I confirm this movie is originally and totally in Ukrainian, it is obvious due to the lip positions. Moreover, it's a well-known fact that the original sound was lost and now we have only the Russian dub version that was widely used in the USSR theaters.

Unfortunately, in such cases IMDb used to prefer the spoken language (Russian as only existing now for this movie) to be set for the title page, and the information about the original language to be mentioned in trivia section. It would be really great to see such cases served better.

@MAthePA, I assume you don't question the fact that actors 100% spoke russian for both Submission #5: Platon meni drug (1980) and Submission #6: Operatsiya 'Kontrakt' (1996) - because if you watch both movies it's immedeately obvious that the lips are moving in Russian (therefore Ukrainian is just a dubbing).

Your claim that "I need to provide evidences that the Russian spoken originals (as you think) have been ever existed, for next two movies" seems unreasonable: for example for "Za dvoma zaitsiamy" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055635/ until 2013 there was absolutely NO evidance that Ukrainian origingal audio has been perserved in some archives.

The same logic applies here when a Russian dub found. But how could you find something that never existed? Provide evidence that Russian sound was ever created as original for these two movies.Again, you seem don't know all the possible variants for sound creating those times. As an example, Brylska in Ironiya Sudby. She spoken only Polish when filming. Do you think a word in Polish was put on track??

I know tha Brylska spoke Polish when filming Ironiya sudby, I do know that the movie is considered to have only 100% Russian audio as it's original (because they dubbed her charecter into Russian in post-production).

This example, however, doesn't apply here => both Platon meni drug (1980) and Operatsiya 'Kontrakt' (1996) had ALL their actors speaking in Russian, so for all practical purposes the original audio of this movie is Russian.

Romaninho Nabaidyzhiy,please next time try to divide your post logically into separate blocks (you may comment yourself for this), because they are hard to process. Now I'm forced to quote the whole part of yours and edit it for comfortable look:Submission #7: Ya, Ty, Vin, Vona (2018)https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9037222/#190224-171047-773000#190414-021451-021000

This movie was actually shot in Russian, and original Russian audio track for the movie is lost and only Ukrainian dubbing has been found thus far. Proof that this feature movie has original audio in Russian: 1) See article about the film on Ukrainian Wikipedia, specifically the section entitled "Ukrainian dubibing": http://bit.ly/2IgOOO3 . That section has references from an article that quotes movie co-director when he explains why they decided to shoot film in Russian originally (and release the Russian-language version in Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia) and create a dubbed Ukrainian version in post-production for Ukraine's theatrical release

I confirm this movie is originally in Russian. Plus Romaninho Nabaidyzhiy is referencing to the Russian-language releases in Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.

But Romaninho Nabaidyzhiy states here that "original Russian audio track for the movie is lost". If it is true, the title language for this movie has to be "Ukrainian" according to the IMDb practice. Without evidence, this sounds as rumors to me. This movie was released in 2018, its producer can tell for sure whether the Russian original is "lost" or not. Romaninho Nabaidyzhiy please contact Mr. Zelensky to have factual data on this matter. Thanks in advance.

Due to large size of my submissino, I might have overlooked/mistyped couple of details. Russian dubbing for this movie (Submission #7: Ya, Ty, Vin, Vona (2018)) is obviously not lost (it was shown in Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia; see example of trailer for the moview with Russian original audio created for these countries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY9-D0CL0v4).

ps.It seems like I can't edit my original post any more, there fore I can't correct this detail of my post now

Will could you pleae PM regarding abovementioned submissions (from part 1 of my post)? I just checked my "re-submissions' (after I addded detailed description to each re-submission, plus detailed descriptions here, on this board), I still got rejections on all submissions. It doesn't seem like IMDb staff read either detailed description for each submission or the this post I made here.

What Will means by supporting evidence is not another submission on your part. It is evidence supported by a link to some news article as an independent source.Provide that evidence here.If it is the link to watch the entire title in question, than post the url along with the exact time within the movie that English is spoken. News articles that refer to the same thing is good too. Make reference to the 18 digit number with the proof for each of your submissions.

Endlessly resubmitting and referring to these get satisfaction topics are not the relevant data that they want.

Hi Will, unfortunately Submission #7: " Ya, Ty, Vin, Vona (2018) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9037222/ had correct language (Russian) for only a couple of days - today I noticed that someone has reverted the update and it again incorrectly displays movie language as "Ukrainian".

Could you please help figure out who changed film's langauge back to the incorrect value "Russian"? Was it a film representative? Is there a way to prevent this from happening in the future (e.g., leave a note for IMDb staff saying that the correct original language for this movie is "Russian").

Hi Will, could IMDb staff please take another look at this submission:* Title: Gruz bez markirovki (1986) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087368/* 18 digit number: #190224-031756-985000 (I requested Ukrainian be removed as 2nd language as there are no Ukrainian dialogues in this movie)* proof that movie is in Russian: the movie on Youtube where you can heare that al dialogues are in Russian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH6zCUZZZtY

piznajkoCould you make a little effort to keep the great efforts of your own not ruining the consistency of the data in the base please? As a Ukrainian user, now I see the movie Ya, Ty, Vin, Vona (2018) language is Russian, but its original title as well as ALL credits are still Ukrainian (transliterated). It's a state of chaos, especially when both versions of a movie are well-known.

Hi MAthePA, I've updated the language to Russian for Ya, Ty, Vin, Vona (2018) since it's the original audio language of the movie (referencing to the entire movie with original audio in Russian were provided above). Do you suggest lying in IMDb credits and falsely saying that original audio is Ukrainian, when in fact it's Russian?

As for your complaint about "credits langauge" - I'm not sure what you want me to do here. I've looked at the movie with the original Russian audio track (the link I've provided above - https://video.zhykrecords.biz/comedy/2974-ya-ty-on-ona-ya-ti-vn-vona-2018.html ) - even though it has original Russian audio track, yet the title in the movie credits and the movie actors' credits are written in Ukrainian. So I don't see a problem why the title and actors' credits shouldn't stay Ukraininan, while the language of the original audio correctly states "Russian".

p.s. In general it's nothing "extradodinary" that original film audio is in one language, while the credits are in a different language: take for instance The Good Soldier Shweik (2010) - it's original release in 2010 had audio in Russian, yet movie credits were in English.

piznajko, after changing the nickname you may be forgot that earlier MAthePAhas written: "I confirm this movie is originally in Russian. Plus Romaninho Nabaidyzhiy is referencing to the Russian-language releases in Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia."If not the possible memory problem, your strident rhetoric "Do you suggest lying in IMDb credits and falsely saying that original audio is Ukrainian" is a complete and utter rubbish preamble to "I'm not sure what you want me to do here".

If you leave the credits+language state as it is, then there are more chances for another contributor to reverse the language of movie or to change all the credits to the current language.

I consider the right way should be:

Provide backdrops of title sequence in Russian, if this language is the only one used in this movie. In such case, all the credits must be transliterated from Russian, not Ukrainian as it is now;

If Russian titles do not exist, you should not change Ukrainian into Russian. I have provided similar examples for you on other movies earlier. You should add Russian as the 1st language, and change the number for Ukrainian into "2" with additional info "(titles)".

suggestion #1 from MAthePA makes sense (e.g., changing the title of the movie in IMDb credits to be transliterated from Russian original (e.g., Ya, Ty, On, Ona) since original audio track is in Russian.

suggestion #2, however, doesn't make much sense. He's basically suggesting adding a 2nd language to EACH IMDb title, if the credits language is different from the original audio track language. This would create incredible confusion among regular IMDb users, because the current IMDb system does NOT allow the "language" field comments to be displayed on the regular imdb.com site (it's only visible in the "Contribution" edit mode when a contributor is udpating the Language field). E.g., if we go ahead with MAthePA suggestion, we would end up with the following situation:

1) Say you have a title like Cannes-nominated Sergei Loznitsa's film Krotkaya (2017) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5618752/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_5. This film has 100% of its dialogues in Russian (and that's why imdb currently correctly states that film language is in Russian). However, film's credits are all in French (you can see the whole movie here https://ok.ru/video/448380473786 and verify it yourslef). See snippet example of French credits below

2) Say we end up using the new credits language policy suggested by MAthePA. In this case I (as a "Contributions" editor) will be able to see the commetn next to French "(credits language)" this, when editing the langauge field:

3) However, regular imdb users of the website will just see "Russina, French" without any comment whatsover (see sippet of this hipothetical situation below), therefore a regular IMDb user would erroneously assume that there are 2 langauges spoken in this movie: Russain AND French - which is absolutely not true.

There are hundreeds of movies like this in European cienema - @Will, we would have to make this correction to all those movies (we can't make Ukrainian movies an exception, we would have to follow through with this policy for all titles on IMDb).

Will /
Michelle did you see my comment above? Could you please comment? MAthePA's suggestion # directly contradicts IMDb's rules regarding "Language" field of a movie title, because it unequivocally states that:

The IMDb languages section records the languages spoken in titles in the database.

While MAthePA proposes that IMDb should record not only languages spoken in titles, but also language of the movie titles/credtis. IMDb credits don't specifically display attributes "Languages" field for reguilar IMDb users, and since all IMDb users expect that language credit to conform to IMDb's rules and to list anguages spoken in titles , adding languages of film's titles/credits would only confuse IMDb users.

MAthePA Probably because in the past regular IMBd contributors (and not the IMDb staff or IMDb site administrators) added those attributed (e.g., "titles", "title and credits..." etc.) in the past through "Add this as a new attribute" option.

In general, many of IMDb fields allow "custom" attribute to be added, for example I've see this option on "Release Dates" field, where you can add a new Film Festival that's not in the system currently through similar option "Add this as a new attribute"

Lastly, those users that in the past added custom "attributes" to the Langauge field obvious didn't read the IMDb's rules that "The IMDb languages section records the languages spoken in titles in the database." who added descriptions for langauge attributes that were NOT about langauges spoken in titles violated IMBd ruses and should not have done so. In general, IMDb system should not allow any Language attribuate that would violate it's language-related IMDb's rules .

piznajko, sorry, but the more I hear from you about facts, factual data and how to process them, the less factual the base of IMD seems to be and going to be. It's not between you and me, it's bad for all contributors, especially for the foreign languages segment.______________________________________________

A side note: Can somebody authoritative in his eyes please explain why and how the referenced "KEY Rules" are less informative than the general rules of IMDb, those may be partially unwritten?

There is old news for you and other editors: the language attributes work for long time and do not depend on a title or languages used. The attributes are needed to explain the specific use of other (not the main for a film) languages in a production, so users of the base further could not be confused when they see titles or credits in other language, hear songs or dialogues in other language, and so on; as well as later contributors could bear in mind when submitting more data.

In the initial screen grab, there is 'titles and' mentioned by IMDb system as the cause for suggesting the inbuilt variants. You may try to Edit any title => Languages => Correct [any existing] => Attribute ['titles and' or 'titles why'] to have one more for you: The system will suggest the closest variants to complete the submission or choose between the existing ones. If the 3d or 4th generation of IMDb staff is going to eliminate this great feature (as wells as adding new attributes), it would be better to announce this for public. In this case, I believe (and can explain why), a little later the IMDb will announce that their base is and will be only 'internet', and no more plans to be 'international'.__________________________________________

Michelle, I really can not understand how this additional required info (the screen grabs of IMDb forms) may further explain:

And why editors of IMDb are so fast to accept the main language corrections into non-existing versions for the movies evidenced with opposite -- another language (sound, title, credits). Was those processed by the 'language expert on the team'?

Thanks for the additional information, I have now replicated the Warning and list of suggested attributes you initially reported. This Warning will automatically display when a new attribute is being submitted for Language data, and the form will display the closest matches we have to the text entered (ie. "titles" "and"), so the form is operating as designed by showing the Warning. We don't currently have any plans to remove this from the form.

Concerning the other issues you outlined, concerning the display of the Warning, it's not so much that we are trying to act quickly to deny new additions, but rather, we are trying to catch any instances that would cause a duplication of an existing attribute, as contributors may phrase the same attribute differently.

Concerning the second question, unfortunately, I cannot follow the exact issue, can you clarify the issue further?