ARE THE FEDS TRYING TO TRASH the NCAA

@Kcmatt7 & I have been kicking this around. Thought it just as well have it’s own thread.

Could it really be the goal of those “government boys” to force the 2AA out of their nonprofit tax status so the Feds can finally get their slice of the pie? All this hubbub about 3-4 figure loans to parents, players, dinner tabs, etc., appears 👀 like a smokescreen for something far more reaching than just minuscule taxes on undeclared benefits. Sure is a conspiracy possible to tap the Billions & Billions of dollars 💵 that’s now virtually untouchable to the IRS. What are your thoughts? Can the NCAA as is survive this debacle intact? Or is their life of luxury & days in the sun 🌞 coming to an end? The Feds have a lot of money 💰, man hours, & effort into this investigation for what? A few small potatoes 🥔 & a couple at a boys IMO. Is puzzling to say the least.

Giving money away or paying for future services, in business we call it a retainer, is not and has never been a crime. it becomes a crime if income above a threshold is not declared and taxes are not paid…that is how the got Capone. Other than that is a civil and a not a criminal matter. It might break all kinds of NCAA rules but not necessarily laws.

If you want loyalty get a dog; better yet, get two just in case one turns on you.

This situation can’t be compared to “business.” It’s amateur athleticism. And it involves alleged illegalities committed within the NCAA. Even though the NCAA isn’t governmental and hence their laws are not from our government, that doesn’t mean breaking laws within their structure doesn’t weigh into law enforcement. The NCAA is only quasi-private. Their structure is in place governing state-funded universities. When an individual athlete (or family) receives a benefit, it can be argued to damage other athletes and schools, and probably others.

And then there exists the real possibility of other crimes committed, including tax evasion, etc.

Like I said earlier… as far as Kansas is concerned… unless representatives of Kansas (non-athletes) are involved in anyway, including just having knowledge but not reporting, I don’t see where we are in trouble.

Now imagine the Billy Preston situation. Aren’t we all glad we didn’t play him after his red-flag incident?

I just don’t see how we get slammed with this. Our compliance department is a model program that has been highly-praised by the NCAA and is being used to help other schools meet the obligation of compliance.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is what is happening. The question as to why the FBI would be doing this keeps circling back. It has no logical explanation if it isn’t about money. These findings won’t even pay for the investigation. And in the whole scheme of things, it is basically victimless. Has to be other things at work.

@Kcmatt7 I’m at a loss to explain why also. Hoped we could get some intuitive input & speculation from some varied perspectives. There are generally many with different takes on conspiracy theories who post interesting & sensibile thoughts. Maybe we get a few more new ideas 💡 over the next few days. If defrauding the universities is the issue here then the 2AA should not be dealing out any form of punishment if the schools were actually duped. Still, what can possibly be in this for the Feds? A pot of Gold?

It’s only IMO but also think it’s very naïve to believe KU spent a half million bucks (cha ching) on investigating the BP case for reasons only that so he could play half a season. Not impossible but in the wake of the Feds & all the fallout, I really gotta question that too. Quite a chunk o’ change per, for about 20 measly games if it’s averaged out. Even a hot car used in a drug deal in Miami from a freakin foreign country shouldn’t have that expensive of a paper trail. No effin way

@Buster-1926 Seems to be a very strange endeavor for the FBI. I’m wondering what is driving them to devote such an exhaustive amount of time, money, and effort to enforce NCAA rules. One wonders what the end game is in burning down the NCAA house.

Not only do I predict KU games, but I also am amazing at picking 1 seeds over 16 seeds. My record was perfect until those Virginia Hoo Hoos went and spoiled it. 135-1 is still pretty good.

BTW, I am openly wondering how that Sparty is going to be able to keep Miles Bridges on the court in lieu of the Nassar fiasco. If Bridges is not suspended, then the accusations of Sparty sweeping yet another illegality under the rug will be made coast to coast, I would bet. I think the pressure to suspend him will be enormous. I’ll add this disclaimer: provided the info is tangible, and correct. I hope this isn’t more fake news.

Not only do I predict KU games, but I also am amazing at picking 1 seeds over 16 seeds. My record was perfect until those Virginia Hoo Hoos went and spoiled it. 135-1 is still pretty good.

@Crimsonorblue22 That’s what I’ve been wondering. He had a player that sexually assaulted a coed, and it wasn’t reported to the police, and the player wasn’t suspended. It has completely changed my view on Izzo.

Not only do I predict KU games, but I also am amazing at picking 1 seeds over 16 seeds. My record was perfect until those Virginia Hoo Hoos went and spoiled it. 135-1 is still pretty good.

@Crimsonorblue22 That’s what I’ve been wondering. He had a player that sexually assaulted a coed, and it wasn’t reported to the police, and the player wasn’t suspended. It has completely changed my view on Izzo.

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I feel a great awakening coming, if you are seeing Izzo more clearly.

@jaybate-1.0 So —— is Stumpy the target 🎯 ?Could said Nike comrades possibly be next? Am watching the taped AZ vs ORSTATE match on FCSP & even with the Stump comfortably up by 12 he’s still sweating 😓 his butt off. Must be the immense pressure of the “Ghost of Lute” cause it ain’t hot in Oregon this time of year. Ya think 🤔 ?! Tell it like it is O’JB? We search for awareness & enlightenment from the archives of great BB faith & wisdom …

@drgnslayr Man I hope your right my friend. - This thing just seems to keep getting bigger and bigger as more comes to light. - -Do we really think that OL Stumpy is going to be the only Major name Coach that gets themselves into some trouble with this?- I personally don’t - I think we going be shocked possibly when it’s all said an done - -just hopefully not our Coach.

I think we good with the Preston situation, there is a couple of things that worry me to a certain degree - -one is with Apples, the 2700 not that much - but yet there is rumor of possible more money to her did I see that right? - that might not be good for KU - then I’m not sure but one that possibly concerns me is E Johnson.- I guess it comes down to exactly when he supposedly had his loan? - If that turns out not so good then we cold possibly be in some trouble there.

I feel so out of place in all of this, - Seems everyone on here knows so much more legally about things in this situation or just much more informed then I in this thing - feel like a 1st grader trying to question a Senior in all of this. - - just glad there are people here that actually know some things legally or so it seems anyways. - I’m probably over reacting to this thing - -but Damm I just don’t want us ( KU ) to get taken down by this - -I just think or feel there is NO WAY we come out of this clean 100% --hope I’m wrong. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

BTW, I am openly wondering how that Sparty is going to be able to keep Miles Bridges on the court in lieu of the Nassar fiasco. If Bridges is not suspended, then the accusations of Sparty sweeping yet another illegality under the rug will be made coast to coast, I would bet. I think the pressure to suspend him will be enormous. I’ll add this disclaimer: provided the info is tangible, and correct. I hope this isn’t more fake news.

I just get this feel about Izzo and Michigan State that things might turn out really bad for them- Izoo does the ol tap dance around things here - -like I have said in other comments , I think this is just getting started lots of heads gonna roll in the end run - some Coaches gonna be in some real trouble. - and let’s not forget our old buddy Coach Cal at Kentucky - with the whole Bam thing and even possibly Kevin Knox situation and GOD knows what else there. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@KUSTEVE funny how one month can change things so drastically. He’s only an allegation away from putting him in the same class as joe pa

Ya and he is supposedly thought to be looked at as one of the old good squeaky clean boys - -but he has more trouble now then just the sexual assault going on with the whole Bridges thing and who knows what else

@jaybate-1.0 So —— is Stumpy the target 🎯 ?Could said Nike comrades possibly be next? Am watching the taped AZ vs ORSTATE match on FCSP & even with the Stump comfortably up by 12 he’s still sweating 😓 his butt off. Must be the immense pressure of the “Ghost of Lute” cause it ain’t hot in Oregon this time of year. Ya think 🤔 ?! Tell it like it is O’JB? We search for awareness & enlightenment from the archives of great BB faith & wisdom …

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@Buster1926, You will be wasting your search time!!! I am just a fan and a layman trying to write funny and entertain without insider knowledge about the game.

Regarding Stumpy, I kind of quit following him much after:

a.) he appeared to get so many top players so early in his career that a more experienced, more successful and ring winning Bill Self could not get; and

b.) he was unable to win a ring with all that talent.

Next, regarding this supposedly looming scandal, I try to leave law enforcement to law enforcement professionals.

And I try to remember: “conspiracies” and “conspiracy theories” are apparently memes for suckers unless and until confirmed by those who can confirm such things.

I really can’t tell what’s going on, or why the news is coming from the paticular sources it’s coming from, especially in the apparently incremental fashion and with the apparent cliff hanger timing. It feels kind of stage-managed, but who knows?

Little about the story so far appears to add up to anything very clear to me, and when it would apparently be pretty easy to make things clear and they appear unclear, it makes me wonder sometimes, if the murkiness and curious characterizing of what is supposedly soon to be learned were intentional and stage managed to generate clicks, like some of the stories out of Washington reputedly appear at times.

This reputed investigation appears to involve the FBI and DOJ. Well, the Nunes Memo and the reputedly declassified and posted online F.I.S.A. Court finding the Nunes Memo reputedly summarizes seem to suggest elements within those outfits have been a little out of line lately, so I reckon common sense suggests we ought to be a leeeeetle wait and see-ish about things, especially regarding MSM’s portrayal of the case. MUCH of the MSM has reputedly been struggling with its objectivity vis a vis certain elements within those agencies. It’s all rather confusing to this layman and fan.

Whatever, I’m for cleaning up the game, when law enforcement can make and win a case with real evidence that holds up in court and that puts some real bad guys, if any, that are wrecking the greatest game ever invented, if they are found to be so doing in a fair trial by a fairly selected jury with an honest judge. I am also for paying the players based on what the market will bear, same as coaches, ADs, chancellors, NCAA officials, Media Talking heads, petroshoeco officials, agents, law enforcement officials, and lawyers for all the above. But not many seem to agree with me on paying the players legally, that is.

I dare say there may be some validity to others suggestions that someone is after bringing the NCAA down. For whatever the reason. Look at the last 6 months. Pitino, now Miller, quite likely Izzo. These are not small fish, and who knows?? It’s probably not over yet and may just be getting started.

@KUSTEVE Like HCBS inclusion in all this, is premature to say yea or nay on Izzo’s knowledge. But & this is a huge BUT, his assistant Dwayne Stephens supposedly was in negotiations with the kid Christian Dawkins to pull of a deal involving Bridges, Bowen, & Gary Harris. So here’s the kicker. Dawkins sent emails to his boss Miller with references to this & others mentioning Stephans, Bridges, Bowen, Apples, Josh, & others, but if nothing can be traced in emails back to those sources allegedly involved, it maybe that this kid was just padding his own expense reports by bull shitting his boss. Sounds as this could very well be the case. After all he’s a 25 yo kid that’s clearly going for the (his own) gold ring. True or not, the little turd is really trying to bring down the entire house now to save his own crooked ass.

@jaybate-1.0 A fair trial…by an honest judge? No way, my friend; not in 2018 USA! Just wait for the SPIN. And when evidence appears to be building toward “fair” ruling, watch for the inexplicable sudden turnabout. Talk about hundreds and thousands of corrupt dollars falling into the hands of players, family members and coaches? Just wait 'til bigtime jurisprudence gets its hand on the moneyflow. They is the peon, and eventually they is the PRINCE.

As a Saturday morning afterthought, when I consider all the political considerations and implications of this Division 1 investigation mess, I am inclined to close my eyes and imagine where it probably is headed. In no time at all, I envision busy shipyards with strings of luxurious yachts under construction.

@jaybate-1.0 A fair trial…by an honest judge? No way, my friend; not in 2018 USA! Just wait for the SPIN. And when evidence appears to be building toward “fair” ruling, watch for the inexplicable sudden turnabout. Talk about hundreds and thousands of corrupt dollars falling into the hands of players, family members and coaches? Just wait 'til bigtime jurisprudence gets its hand on the moneyflow. They is the peon, and eventually they is the PRINCE.

FYI, those were my opined layman’s criteria for effective law enforcement, not assessments of how I think it may play out. I am a legal layman, so I do not feel qualified to anticipate the integrity of this particular process before hand.

I just have to leave cynicism to the cynics, as my spiritual brother on cynicism, @mayjay, does.

I respectfully disagree. Prospects, athletes, programs can break every single NCAA rule and none of that implies that a law is broken. The NCAA is an organization schools join voluntarily and agree to follow rules and regulations with applicable sanctions when said rules are broken. If financial harm is incurred the recourse is via civil and not criminal court.

It is the equivalent of belonging to a home owner’s association that has set of rules for your subdivision like what color your house can be painted. Say, you paint your house a color not approved, the HOA can tell you to repaint your house and if necessary take action in civil court. Unless a city or local zoning ordinance has been violated, the city or local government would not get involved.

There is no law barring someone or a business freely giving money for no reason at all or for legal future considerations. As long as the receiving party declares the income and pays taxes, if applicable, then there is no violation of law.

If you want loyalty get a dog; better yet, get two just in case one turns on you.

@drgnslayr Don’t assume that just because charges were filed, there is really a crime. The prosecutor is charging the conspiracy to defraud based on the violation of NCAA rules, under the theory that because the alleged conspirators actions would make the players ineligible, they were defrauding the university of its anticipated economic benefit and right to control their asset (the player). The theory is premised on the fact that the universities take federal money, it appears. Complete stretch. This is a trumped up charge with the federal government injecting itself where it shouldn’t be involved.

Why should a rep from Adidas or Nike, or a private agent, be charged with a crime because they are trying to help their business – trying to compete for business? This isn’t bribing a public official. This isn’t extorting a public official. This isn’t stealing from a public entity. This is paying to help your business. Why should a private company be held to even be concerned with another party’s private, internal rules (the NCAA rules)? Why should a private company be penalized for competing with a public entity? A private company says it would help if a player goes to university “X”, and pays him to do so – a crime, or just good business?

This is simply free market competition. There is no prohibition against competing with the NCAA. I can hire a player away to come work for me, right? No criminal law stops that.

Couldn’t I approach and talk to the entire KU starting 5, midseason, tell them I’ll pay them each $20 million to come with me and go on a barnstorming tour in Australia? Or pay them $20 million to simply scrimmage for my enjoyment? I could steal the entire team. What law is broken?

So think of it this way – is JJ’s mom a co-conspirator if she accepted money and thus caused her son to be ineligible? Is a Euro team a co-conspirator if the they entice a player to leave KU to play in Europe midway through the season?

To @JayHawkFanToo’s point on the civil courts, a cause of action against the agent, or Nike, or Adidas in civil court would be very limited – on theory might be tortious interference with a contract. That’s still a stretch. Have you ever heard of one even filed? What criminal charge have you ever heard of that doesn’t permit a corresponding civil lawsuit? Right.

I know some don’t think this prosecution is politically motivated. But do you think a left-leaning prosecutor, who thinks that the players are mistreated because they don’t share in the revenue (you know, that they are slaves), that perhaps isn’t a big fan of billion dollar enterprises, might think he could turn the CBB world upside down (or the entire NCAA upside down), by engaging in this prosecution? This investigation began when? 2015? Just food for thought.

Good post w/nice explanation for the layman. We really have to wonder what motivates this 2+ year pursuit of “justice” ? Can’t help but imagine that there’s mega money 💰 to be found somewhere along this trail. JMO

@HighEliteMajor Maybe a right wing prosecutor who doesn’t like minorities getting access to money. No more “out there” than your theory.

Your legal analysis is flawed, in my view. All your hypotheticals involve hiring someone away. There is nothing wrong with that. But there can be major interstate (i.e., federal jurisdiction) communications issues when you and other people work together to pay (not hire) someone still employed elsewhere to do secret acts violating that person’s employment contract or endangering the employer. Conspiring to engage in tortious business interference can be a crime, just as paying someone to divulge business secrets can be a crime.

If course, if you or @JayHawkFanToo (the other poster chanting this refrain) are a lawyer with experience in this field, I defer to your greater knowledge. But the fact that you keep repeating it doesn’t make me forget that there are probably literally dozens of lawyers in the FBI and DOJ who have approved the multistate, multiuniversity investigation and have apparently concluded there are federal laws involved here.

I’m going to throw this out here … what if the allegations against Stubby are false? I admit I was giddy as an 8 old year old on Xmas morning when the bombshell dropped. ESPECIALLY since it was Ayton, who had left us at the altar. In the back of my mind though, something didn’t seem kosher…something wasn’t right… Yes, i wanted it to be true, was hoping it was true, but here is what troubles me:

Friday night leak to the press the day before AZ was to play the NIKE flagship, Oregon. Hmm. A leak from the FBI. If they had Sean Miller on tape working out a payoff, why did they wait 30 games into the season to drop the bomb? Why did the press leak occur the day before Arizona was to play Oregon? Interesting timing, wouldn’t you think? And if they had Sean Miller like they say they do, didn’t they also say they had Jim Larranaga ( head coach of Miami U ) on tape supposedly working out a bribe? And didn’t Larranaga have a pristine reputation for decades in the coaching profession? And didn’t he about have a litter of kittens denying it? It’s real funny how all of those allegations kind of went away, and Larranaga is on the bench, doing what he always does.

Trier pulls an alleged dirty drug test, they suspend him ( right before the Oregon game ), and Trier flips out, and demands an appeal. Most athletes that are running dirty don’t demand an appeal. Stubby Miller is not saying he is sorry- he is saying it is all a pack of lies. This is after they claim they have him on tape. The tape they’ve supposedly had since before the season started. The Stubby tape story that leaked to the press the day before the Oregon game. Doesn’t sound like Stubby is going down without a fight. Does that sound like a guy who was working out a bribe over the phone? Something isn’t adding up.

Then we get the Yahoo expense report from the slimeball indicted for bribery, and we see the mother of a KU player listed for a 'loan". Of course, every major sports media throws in KU in their story as one of the teams affected by all this. Apple vehemently denies it- openly talks to the media about it, and says it is pure hogwash. That doesn’t seem to be the response of a guilty person, either.

I’m starting to formulate that someone really, really wanted AZ to as weak as possible for Saturday’s game against Nike U. I’m starting to smell a rat.

Not only do I predict KU games, but I also am amazing at picking 1 seeds over 16 seeds. My record was perfect until those Virginia Hoo Hoos went and spoiled it. 135-1 is still pretty good.

I’m not a conspiracy theorist when it comes to the FBI and DOJ. Some of my family works within federal law enforcement and I just don’t buy into the current politics.

I’m not saying the FBI is some kind of perfect organization. But I doubt many in here understand how well-regulated federal law enforcement is and how well they get exposed in federal court.

If the FBI brings charges against someone, it is based on at least one federal law. Fact. Everyone has their day in court… but the idea that the FBI goes on witch hunts is not only ridiculous, but harmful to our way of life.

@mayjay As you described, there would have to be many folks involved, so your counter-theory is not analogous. But on its face, I would agree that a unscrupulous prosecutor could certainly have an improper motive, regardless of left, right, or down the middle. We should thus look to motive.

Are you really disputing that prosecutors file cases at times because of 1) publicity, 2) personal gain, or 3) personal beliefs?

Are you really suggesting that prosecutors are pristine in purpose and intent? That to a man (or woman), they are unbiased?

Beyond that, the issue is whether wire fraud, and the related charges, should be based on the violation of NCAA rules as its foundation. I certainly think that one could make an argument in favor of the charges. There is no doubt a prosecutor can argue that premise. The fraud statutes and definitions provide broad areas that permit a great deal of latitude in determining what to charge, and what not to charge.

The question is whether he should charge crimes based on the violation of NCAA rules. That has been my position.

You don’t dispute, as a lawyer, that the choice here by the prosecutor could have come down a different way with another prosecutor at the helm, right?

And thus motive is a relevant inquiry. One good motive could be the public interest, right? But the public interest is a perspective. From my perspective, I think that private companies should be permitted to compete for resources (including players in this case). I like the idea that players can make money if they choose. But I also respect the NCAA’s right to make rules. They compete with one another. What is the best choice for the player?

Do you dispute that based on the prosecutor’s premise, JJ’s mom could be charged as a co-conspirator? That likely every person involved in this process had the exact same knowledge as the named conspirators – that their actions would lead to depriving the university of the economic benefit of the player because it would be a violation of NCAA rules? A you know, a conspiracy does not need conspirators to even affirmatively communicate the deeds, only to understand what is occurring.

Of course, I say she could be charged to highlight the fact that it is up to the prosecutor. Clearly, her role would not be as egregious as Gatto, Dawkins, or the others named, right? Or is it? I mean, it’s her kid, and if he is a minor at the time of the payment, she’s his guardian? Isn’t she arguably defrauding KU by her actions?

However, Gatto and Dawkins had no skin in the NCAA game. They were competing to gain the players’ favor and services for economic gain. They have a legitimate business purpose. And they are dealing with kids and parents most of the time before they even sign a LOI, or commit to a school. Before the NCAA even has any economic interest in them.

So, because the NCAA has internal rules – SOLELY because the NCAA has internal rules that would make the player ineligible to compete (if the NCAA actually chose to suspend them, in their discretion) – this is a crime?

Why should an organization be able to create internal rules that would make it criminal to compete with them?

Remember, a “conspiracy” is just another word for planning. It only becomes a criminal “conspiracy” if there is an underlying crime. If there is no crime, it’s just a business plan.

And the “crime” is supposedly fraud, to “defraud” the university by engaging in conduct that would make the player ineligible. The question, under the law, is whether the university was defrauded of “honest services.” That’s the broad phrase that applies under the law.

And I go back the NCAA rules – if there were no NCAA rules, there would be no “fraud”, correct? The NCAA rules create a buffer to competition.

I acknowledge that a prosecutor has the legal basis to file the charges, but that doesn’t tell me much. The law if very broad. My opinion is that this is an abusive prosecution. It is telling to me that we hear of no agents even being sued in civil court based on their actions. What criminal conduct does not provide relief in civil court? Of course a civil claim can be fashioned, no doubt. I guess my point is I just have seen or heard of one yet.

This looks more like competition to me. It may look more like fraud to someone else. It may also look like grandstanding and social engineering to others.

President Trump, Congressman Nunes, Admiral Rogers of NSA, and the F.I.S.A. Court in their reputedly declassified findings regarding what Admiral Rogers reputedly alerted them to, may concur with you that DOJ and FBI are not quite perfect.

(Note: I could of course unintentionally have misinterpreted all of the above, because I am only a layman citizen exposed to a media in which the news currently is often darned hard to makes sense of.)

@Kcmatt7 Why would the FBI leak pertinent information concerning an ongoing investigation to an ESPN reporter the day before they played Nike U? Why would they sit on a story as huge as a coach taped working out a bribe for a player? They certainly didn’t wait on Pitino. A win over AZ would be an absolute if Nike U had any chance of making the tournament. Pretty fortuitous break for them the day before the game. It also helped that Trier was suspended a few days before. Boy oh boy, Nike U is sure lucky, aren’t they?

Not only do I predict KU games, but I also am amazing at picking 1 seeds over 16 seeds. My record was perfect until those Virginia Hoo Hoos went and spoiled it. 135-1 is still pretty good.