So if you go to a gas station charging you $16 dollars a gallon, vs $3 what are you going to think ?

Not quite the same thing. A better comparison would be an iPad vs a Kindle Fire. The iPad mini costs $320 the Kindle Fire HD is only $199. They serve basically the same purpose from the end user's perspective. So is it stealing that Apple charges $120 more? People may think Apple products are over priced, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain that they are stealing. They charge what they think they can get away with, and most of the time they are right. TiVo is doing the same thing. They are charging what they think the market will bear. If they're wrong then they will likely adjust the price later on. (they've adjusted the cost of the Premiere and service multiple times in the last 3 years)

I'd buy one for $100, equivalent to a Roku or Apple TV but I'm having a hard time figuring what I'd be paying a subscription for. I already pay a subscription for the XL4 which is basically for the guide info, paying an additional $5 per mo to access one of those "already paid for" tuners and already recorded programs is not sitting well with me. Its just a conceptual thing

First decide what you want.

Roku/Apple TV and a Mini are not interchangeable they do not do the same thing. The Primary functions of a Mini are not available on a Roku/Apple TV at all, the Mini does have some of the services available that a Roku/Apple TV has but is lacking access to many services and can not really replace a Roku or Apple TV (at least at this time hopefully the new hardware will allow access to more services over time).

If you decide you want what a Mini does then decide if it is worth $250 or the $99 and $6/mo too you or not.

Why does everyone keep acting like they need some tangible reason, like guide data, to charge a subscription? Do you really think TiVo pays anywhere near $14.95/mo to Tribune for the guide data on your main TiVo?

This is just how TiVo's business model is structured. They sell the hardware at, or below, cost and then make their money on the subscription. If you want a DVR with no "subscription" cost then get a Windows HTPC and a Ceton Echo. (it'll likely cost you more then a XL4/Mini combo)

And I still don't get the comparison to a Roku or Apple TV. Those are both internet streaming devices that only have a value if you subscribe to the services they offer. (i.e. Netflix, iTunes, etc...) The TiVo Mini's main purpose is to extend your TiVo viewing around the house without the need for another full blown TiVo. It's only real competition is a second TiVo, which costs more then double.

So if you go to a gas station charging you $16 dollars a gallon, vs $3 what are you going to think ?

Well if someone is selling $3 gas and it is the same as the $16 gas I would buy the $3 gas.

I am not sure what that has to do with a Mini there is no identical/interchangeable products to compare it's cost to. It is not like a person can just buy some other brand of DVR extender and use it. The Mini is part of a TiVo whole home DVR system it is not a stand alone device so the only real way evaluate it's cost is to compare it to other ways of getting the same or similar whole home DVR functionality. You can do that with other TiVo equipment (multiple DVRs), building a HTPC setup with extenders, or renting it from your cable provider, if available.

I've been paying $8 a month for a plain HD cable box in my main family room for the last 8 years that didn't even extend my DVR system from the basement.

$8 times 96 months = $768. I could have bought 3 lifetime Minis for that. Heck, I think I may have just talked myself into ordering a lifetime Mini at list price and not waiting for a discount or bundle. I can still wait for a discount on my 2nd and 3rd Minis I guess.

I'm not saying a Mini and Roku are equivalent functionally, but the fact is Roku can sell their top-of-the-line box for $99 and make a profit without subscriptions, and it has pretty much the same hardware configuration minus MoCA but plus WiFi. I just don't see that they are selling this at a loss requiring a sub to recoup their cost. They are charging the $5 just because they can.

I'm not saying a Mini and Roku are equivalent functionally, but the fact is Roku can sell their top-of-the-line box for $99 and make a profit without subscriptions, and it has pretty much the same hardware configuration minus MoCA but plus WiFi. I just don't see that they are selling this at a loss requiring a sub to recoup their cost. They are charging the $5 just because they can.

Roku doesn't make money on the hardware. They have profit sharing deals with all the services offer via the device. TiVo doesn't have that business model so they charge you the service fee directly instead.

Edit: To use a Roku you'd have to, at minimum, subscribe to at least one of their services right? Netflix, Hulu, etc... Those all cost at least $7/mo. So what's the difference?

Roku doesn't make money on the hardware. They have profit sharing deals with all the services offer via the device. TiVo doesn't have that business model so they charge you the service fee directly instead.

Edit: To use a Roku you'd have to, at minimum, subscribe to at least one of their services right? Netflix, Hulu, etc... Those all cost at least $7/mo. So what's the difference?

Nope, you could use any number of free channels only, if you wanted to. For example, Crackle is a free channel and has pretty good stuff on it. You could also use Amazon instant video or Vudu, assuming that you purchase videos through them.

I'm not saying a Mini and Roku are equivalent functionally, but the fact is Roku can sell their top-of-the-line box for $99 and make a profit without subscriptions, and it has pretty much the same hardware configuration minus MoCA but plus WiFi. I just don't see that they are selling this at a loss requiring a sub to recoup their cost. They are charging the $5 just because they can.

exactly, and what does the mini do, just extends recorded programing. Roku probably could have an app , or ipad that does the same thing, Hence mini is worthless.

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I see no use in the Mini not being a hybrid of what it is and a Roku. The Mini has so much potential and Tivo really should get more channels of content for it. Crackle, Amazon Instant, HBO, and more. At that point, then it would make a lot more sense to charge what they are for it. I think that's where I and others are coming from on this.

Not to mention that it does not work on the 2 tuner Premiere. I really don't think there is a technical reason why it won't work. The Stream does not seem to have a problem with the hardware of the 2 tuner Premiere.

I see no use in the Mini not being a hybrid of what it is and a Roku. The Mini has so much potential and Tivo really should get more channels of content for it. Crackle, Amazon Instant, HBO, and more. At that point, then it would make a lot more sense to charge what they are for it. I think that's where I and others are coming from on this.

Not to mention that it does not work on the 2 tuner Premiere. I really don't think there is a technical reason why it won't work. The Stream does not seem to have a problem with the hardware of the 2 tuner Premiere.

TiVo, for reasons we don't know, set up the Mini to be used only if the customer had at least one TP-4, in the future TiVo may add more compatibility to the Mini, as one poster said that the software/firmware in the Mini can and is updateable.

I see no use in the Mini not being a hybrid of what it is and a Roku. The Mini has so much potential and Tivo really should get more channels of content for it. Crackle, Amazon Instant, HBO, and more. At that point, then it would make a lot more sense to charge what they are for it. I think that's where I and others are coming from on this.

Not to mention that it does not work on the 2 tuner Premiere. I really don't think there is a technical reason why it won't work. The Stream does not seem to have a problem with the hardware of the 2 tuner Premiere.

The chip they use in the Mini runs Adobe AIR apps, just like the Samsung smart TVs, so there is really no technical reason the Mini couldn't run all those apps. I think this is likely a business decision. Maybe TiVo is squeezing them for profit sharing deals or maybe TiVo's less then friendly developer agreement is scarring developers away. We really don't know.

However just because the Mini can do these things doesn't mean that's what it's for. It's main purpose it to stream shows from your TiVo to another room. As of right now you have two alternatives to accomplish that...

1) A second TiVo DVR which at minimum would cost $500

2) A TiVo Stream, an iOS device and Apple TV with AirPlay. Assuming you already have the iOS device then the Stream + ATV is $230. Not to mention you'll get degraded quality, a degraded trick play experience and you'll have to leave your iOS device running to feed the ATV via AirPlay. Hardly an ideal solution.

Now I'm sure there are a lot of people who "want" the Mini to be cheaper or provide more functionality, but it is what it is and compared to the current alternatives the price really isn't that bad.

The trouble with the mini is that for most, it requires new hardware. If I had a 4-tuner Premiere, I'd buy one. Having two XL's, I'd need at least an XL4 plus a mini, leaving me with 3 tuners for recording, rather than the 4 I have now.

Just to point out... even if the Mini worked with 2 tuner Premieres, you'd still be left with 3 tuners, as the Mini would have to "steal" a tuner from one of your Premiere XL's.

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I was curious and waiting to see what these minis will offer. Tempted to get one of these minis now, but since they don't currently work with 2-Tuner Premieres (I have two) and require at least a 4-Tuner Premiere, I don't think I'm gonna be on board at this point since I would have to spend a lot on new equipment to get this going the way I wanted. If/when they can work with 2 tuner Premieres (rumored to be able to in the future), I will then reconsider.

Even if I got a 4-tuner Premiere, I'm also a little discouraged that it locks down a tuner from that unit. Maybe this will change in the future though. I was looking for some inexpensive solutions for a basement rec room and spare bedroom that aren't heavily used. These minis seemed like they could possibly solve that issue, but I may just go another route; $99 lifetime a Series3 box I have and just pay the $1.50/month cable card fee for it. It would then essentially be a cheap cable box (with its own tuner) for occasional viewing as well as be used for more recording storage for my whole network (that can then be off-loaded/transferred to my Premieres as needed).

I guess everyone's situation is different & I may even still look into some Ceton/SiliconDust whole home solutions. I may also reconsider all of this when TiVo possibly comes out with a Series 5 that presumably has 6 tuners (& works with minis). Will see.

I think we need to take the speed with the mini with a grain of salt for right now.. it is doing half the tasks the Premiere is probably

Staining my memory but I believe the chip in the Mini is a companion chip to another chip that would be the new chip in an updated DVR. So I don't expect we will see a DVR with the same chip that is in the Mini. But it shouldn't take much to improve on the Premiere, after all that chip in the Premiere is over 3 years old, anything developed in the last year should be a significant upgrade.

The BCM7418 is what is in a Mini forgot what others have posted would be in a new DVR.

Staining my memory but I believe the chip in the Mini is a companion chip to another chip that would be the new chip in an updated DVR. So I don't expect we will see a DVR with the same chip that is in the Mini. But it shouldn't take much to improve on the Premiere, after all that chip in the Premiere is over 3 years old, anything developed in the last year should be a significant upgrade.

The BCM7418 is what is in a Mini forgot what others have posted would be in a new DVR.

I was unaware that criticism of Tivo, was not permitted here. Maybe it should be posted, praise only forums. Worship on.

Criticism of TiVo is welcome here, and in fact it's common. But most critics are hoping to prod TiVo into making good products better. If someone sees no good in TiVo's products and comes here only to bash them, it's natural to question their motives for hanging out here at all. That would be troll-like behavior.