Considering as I can't seem to get a response to this question in existing threads, I decided to create a new one to see if that makes a difference:

WarEr4Christ wrote:

Now I am not suggesting that we be involved in ANY other nation except Israel.

I've asked this before and don't recall getting an answer, but WHY do we need to be so involved with Israel? It could be argued that they're responsible for much of the unrest in the Middle East especially considering they're latest rhetoric of a preemptive strike on Iran. Do they not realize that IF they were to do that, there's a good chance they'll start World War 3. Do we really want that? Are they and they're supporters in that much of a hurry to meet they're makers? Considering this, are they really that much different than the "Islamic terrorists" that want to kill for they're beliefs? Is it not the same? Why does it seem that its ok as long as Israel is the one to do it? I just don't get it. If any other Country on this Earth were to act the same way, the US Govt would be condemning them on a regular basis. So, again I ask WHY is Israel so damned special?

_________________

Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

February 20th, 2012, 10:59 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: What is so special about Israel?

TheRealWags wrote:

Considering as I can't seem to get a response to this question in existing threads, I decided to create a new one to see if that makes a difference:

WarEr4Christ wrote:

Now I am not suggesting that we be involved in ANY other nation except Israel.

I've asked this before and don't recall getting an answer, but WHY do we need to be so involved with Israel? It could be argued that they're responsible for much of the unrest in the Middle East especially considering they're latest rhetoric of a preemptive strike on Iran. Do they not realize that IF they were to do that, there's a good chance they'll start World War 3. Do we really want that? Are they and they're supporters in that much of a hurry to meet they're makers? Considering this, are they really that much different than the "Islamic terrorists" that want to kill for they're beliefs? Is it not the same? Why does it seem that its ok as long as Israel is the one to do it? I just don't get it. If any other Country on this Earth were to act the same way, the US Govt would be condemning them on a regular basis. So, again I ask WHY is Israel so damned special?

I really don't think it matters who controls the land there, there's always going to be some sort of unrest. It is a holy land claimed by multiple sects, and no one will be happy while the other is occupying it.

I really don't know the history as to how/why we started backing Isreal. Were the muslims committing genocide on the Jews and the "world powers" stepped in and created Isreal as a State and gave it to the Jewish people? I could be wrong. I know I've read about it before, but it's one of those things that just never seemed important to me.

February 20th, 2012, 11:05 am

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2882

Re: What is so special about Israel?

Quote:

Were the muslims committing genocide on the Jews and the "world powers" stepped in and created Isreal as a State and gave it to the Jewish people?

No. Powerful European Jews wanted to create their own country going back to pre-WWI. They used the political shakeups caused by those wars to create their country, and got the US and the British to back it--the US saw it as sound strategy, as Israel could be a useful puppet country in a strategically important region.

Evangelical Christians continue to support its existence because they think it has something to do with their scripture, while some neo conservatives continue to believe that its strategically important.

I personally feel that the juice is no longer worth the squeeze, and that any strategic advantages we've gained by supporting Israel have been exceeded by the recent costs (our support of Israel was a big factor in causing 9/11) and potential future costs (war with Iran).

February 20th, 2012, 11:27 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: What is so special about Israel?

Still, weren't Muslims killing Jews in Palestine for years before the creation of Isreal? And wasn't it some sort of "treaty" or "plan for peace" to create the State, seperate it, and "give" it to the Jews? I really don't see how it was "given" to anyone. That implies that it was "taken" from someone else. Wasn't that land occupied by the UK during and after WWII?

I just don't get where all the crying comes from. It seems to me that it wasn't much of an established state prior to its creation, and it doesn't seem like it really "belonged" to anyone or any one group.

That said, last I checked Isreal is still a top 10 military power, and it is a close ally with us in a strategic location (right in the heart of the Middle East), not to mention that they have enemies in common with us.

Sure, Isreal is doing its share of sabre rattling, but so are the Iranians. Every time they build something or "test" something all they're really trying to show is that their delivery system can make it to Isreal.

February 20th, 2012, 11:45 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: What is so special about Israel?

Sorry for the non-reply to your question, there are so many questions it's hard to keep track.

What is so special about Israel?

To answer this accurately, you have to understand the Biblical aspect of it which so many adamantly deny, or question it's authenticity.

Israel as a nation, or people, is the only Ancient nation that has NOT changed since those ancient times. Where are the Amelikites, or Babylonians, or how about the Persians? Two of the three have "morphed" into the Iraqis, or Iranians, but they've still changed, Israel never has.

Through the course of time and extreme pressure, they as a people were driven to the far reaches and it was only in 1948 that they were re-established in their ancesteral homeland. So the said, "turmoil" is actually because those who would claim the land have been displaced from a homeland that wasn't theirs in the first place.

Since that time frame, many Arab countries have fought hard to destroy Israel sinces it's rebirth.

In returning to Scripture prophecies, which are being answered very quickly, you will see that Jerusalem will play a pivotal role in the end time scenario. The false peace, the final conflicts, and so on....

Israel is a crucial piece to the whole puzzle. My question in return to you, is why is Israel the only nation NOT allowed to DEFEND itself? If Mexico was sending in bus bombers and rockets into our homeland do you not think we would unleash hell against them? But yet, Israel is told they can not do this, or should not do this. How is that right?

Hebrews and Arabs are born from the same father, Abraham. They have hated each other since the time that Ishmael was ousted from the family.

So Israel is important to the US because of our Judeo/Christian beliefs, and the relationship that has long been between us and Israel. However, as this POTUS has illustrated, a US that abandons Israel, will only strengthen the world against Israel. In that case, when you back a nation into the corner, you can only know that it will fight with ultimate agression, and they are far more advanced, capable, and willing than we give them credit for. They may be small but they are completely lethal.

Ask Egypt who's Air Force was grounded because the pilots were told their families were being attacked by Israeli commandos and they needed to return to protect their families. Meanwhile Israel destroyed Egypts Air Force on the ground.

Israel is a bastion of peace, and has been far more tolerant than the nations around it. She often takes hits and attacks without full scale retaliation, and does so under the REPEATED hate and discontent of the UN.

It will get much worse, and Iran and Russia will attack Israel at some point, wiping out most of it, until something dramatic and unexplainable happens for non-Christians. But if I keep typing this way, you are gonna accuse me of copying "Left Behind" series. And when it does get better, and there is "Peace" in Israel, watch out.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

February 20th, 2012, 11:58 am

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2882

Re: What is so special about Israel?

Quote:

Still, weren't Muslims killing Jews in Palestine for years before the creation of Isreal?

Not really, no. Jews were treated far, far worse in Europe than they were in the Middle East. Mistreatment of Jews living in Palestine had nothing to do with the founding of Israel.

Quote:

And wasn't it some sort of "treaty" or "plan for peace" to create the State, seperate it, and "give" it to the Jews? I really don't see how it was "given" to anyone. That implies that it was "taken" from someone else. Wasn't that land occupied by the UK during and after WWII?

It was part of the Ottoman Empire that existed from about 1500-1920. When the Ottoman empire collapsed, the British took control over much of the Middle East.

Quote:

I just don't get where all the crying comes from. It seems to me that it wasn't much of an established state prior to its creation, and it doesn't seem like it really "belonged" to anyone or any one group.

I always try to get people to think like this:

Let's say one day all the Native Americans that lived in Mt Pleasant decided that they were going to take back the state of Michigan. So they ask you to leave. They take control of the government and change the laws to favor themselves. They declare it a Native American state. Millions of Native Americans from across the world start moving in. They commit acts of aggression against you, blow up your home, etc.

Are you not pissed off? Would not the rest of the people living in the other 49 states wish to come to your aid?

Quote:

That said, last I checked Isreal is still a top 10 military power, and it is a close ally with us in a strategic location (right in the heart of the Middle East), not to mention that they have enemies in common with us.

Yes, arguably they still have a strategic use. But at some point the costs outweigh the benefits. I think we've long crossed that threshold, if we haven't, than a war with Iran most certainly is crossing that threshold.

February 20th, 2012, 12:02 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: What is so special about Israel?

Just curious W4C...

But... If you honestly believe that Israel will be a key player in the "end of times," wouldn't that be all the reason you need to not support them?

I'm all for supporting Israel for strategic reasons, but if you honestly believe that there's some ancient prophecy that is right now coming true that ends our days, and has Isreal as a key component, wouldn't you want them to go away?

February 20th, 2012, 12:03 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: What is so special about Israel?

WJB,

Actually its quite the contrary. Israel, or the Hebrews are God's chosen people. He chose the weak, and small to be His people, not because of what they, or we can do for him, but because of His great love. In order to keep this from swaying off topic, I would gladly discuss this in further detail through PM.

Having said that, according to the Scriptures of the Bible, Israel plays a Key role, because of their relationship with God. However, I will have you know that there is what they call a remnant, of roughly 10% of Jews that will be saved or survive. So out of the entire world population that shows you exactly how many have yet to perish through many means. It's a sad and tragic story, and has yet to be told, but it's true nonetheless.

Getting rid of Israel will not eliminate the problem, nor will it solve it. Israel will always be a nation, and has always been a nation, it just happened to be scattered until 48.

Blueskies, your statement about Israel is misleading, as you give the perspective that Israel moved in during 1948 and immediately began blowing up homes and people. That doesn't coincide with history that I've read. So your example about the Michigan NA doesn't seem entirely true.

The other thing wrong with that is that many believe that the NA as we know them today are the victims of the white man, but we often forget that these very same NA did the exact same to the "ones who've gone before." They moved them out or assimilated them. The problem with our handling of the NA was that we didn't assimilate them, we segregated them, and tried to destroy them by putting them in God forsaken places, and making them survive off of government hand outs and alcohol.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

February 20th, 2012, 1:17 pm

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2882

Re: What is so special about Israel?

Quote:

Blueskies, your statement about Israel is misleading, as you give the perspective that Israel moved in during 1948 and immediately began blowing up homes and people. That doesn't coincide with history that I've read. So your example about the Michigan NA doesn't seem entirely true.

No, Jews remained in Palestine since the fall of the Roman empire. But they began to move there in mass after WWI, and then started their country in 48.

Quote:

The other thing wrong with that is that many believe that the NA as we know them today are the victims of the white man, but we often forget that these very same NA did the exact same to the "ones who've gone before." They moved them out or assimilated them. The problem with our handling of the NA was that we didn't assimilate them, we segregated them, and tried to destroy them by putting them in God forsaken places, and making them survive off of government hand outs and alcohol.

Please explain the bolded part.

February 20th, 2012, 1:24 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: What is so special about Israel?

The "Ones who've gone before" is a reference to the NA peoples, especially of the Southwest, who were tribes of people that were the "ancient" ones. In fact, If I am correct, many scholars believed the Pueblo building indians were their before the Apachae and other tribes that moved in. In fact, the thought was that they moved to cliff side locations as a way to protect themselves from more hostile neighbors.

NA tribes although nomadic, have done pretty much the same as the "white man" but what ultimately led to their demise as a free ranging people, was their dependency upon our goods. In fact, you could even see the correlation between how they were treated to what is being created in Modern America. I will mention it briefly but it then try to get back to topic. Government is saying it will provide for everything, and so we are becoming dependent upon the government to provide all our needs, when many who would rather do for themselves are being forced out by the proposed NANNY State.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

February 20th, 2012, 2:12 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12312

Re: What is so special about Israel?

WarEr4Christ wrote:

Sorry for the non-reply to your question, there are so many questions it's hard to keep track.

What is so special about Israel?

To answer this accurately, you have to understand the Biblical aspect of it which so many adamantly deny, or question it's authenticity.

Israel as a nation, or people, is the only Ancient nation that has NOT changed since those ancient times. Where are the Amelikites, or Babylonians, or how about the Persians? Two of the three have "morphed" into the Iraqis, or Iranians, but they've still changed, Israel never has.

Through the course of time and extreme pressure, they as a people were driven to the far reaches and it was only in 1948 that they were re-established in their ancesteral homeland. So the said, "turmoil" is actually because those who would claim the land have been displaced from a homeland that wasn't theirs in the first place.

Since that time frame, many Arab countries have fought hard to destroy Israel sinces it's rebirth.

In returning to Scripture prophecies, which are being answered very quickly, you will see that Jerusalem will play a pivotal role in the end time scenario. The false peace, the final conflicts, and so on....

Israel is a crucial piece to the whole puzzle. My question in return to you, is why is Israel the only nation NOT allowed to DEFEND itself? If Mexico was sending in bus bombers and rockets into our homeland do you not think we would unleash hell against them? But yet, Israel is told they can not do this, or should not do this. How is that right?

Hebrews and Arabs are born from the same father, Abraham. They have hated each other since the time that Ishmael was ousted from the family.

So Israel is important to the US because of our Judeo/Christian beliefs, and the relationship that has long been between us and Israel. However, as this POTUS has illustrated, a US that abandons Israel, will only strengthen the world against Israel. In that case, when you back a nation into the corner, you can only know that it will fight with ultimate agression, and they are far more advanced, capable, and willing than we give them credit for. They may be small but they are completely lethal.

Ask Egypt who's Air Force was grounded because the pilots were told their families were being attacked by Israeli commandos and they needed to return to protect their families. Meanwhile Israel destroyed Egypts Air Force on the ground.

Israel is a bastion of peace, and has been far more tolerant than the nations around it. She often takes hits and attacks without full scale retaliation, and does so under the REPEATED hate and discontent of the UN.

It will get much worse, and Iran and Russia will attack Israel at some point, wiping out most of it, until something dramatic and unexplainable happens for non-Christians. But if I keep typing this way, you are gonna accuse me of copying "Left Behind" series. And when it does get better, and there is "Peace" in Israel, watch out.

So, in other words, because of religion the US is choosing Israel over any other nation, is that correct? If so, what is the difference between that and Muslims choosing their nation(s) because of their religion? Couldn't it be said that they're pretty much the same, just coming from different beliefs? Also, if true, then wouldn't that be in direct opposition to the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution? Especially considering, as TDJ advised in another thread:

Quote:

Per the supreme court (and Black's Law Dictionary), the establishment clause is:

"[t]he First Amendment provision that prohibits the federal and state governments from establishing an official religion, or from favoring or disfavoring one view of religion over another."

IF what you state is true, then the consistent support of Israel over Muslim / Islamic nations could be seen as the "favoring of one view of religion over another". Or am I missing something? If so, please clarify / explain.

_________________

Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

February 20th, 2012, 3:38 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12312

Re: What is so special about Israel?

wjb21ndtown wrote:

last I checked Isreal is still a top 10 military power

You do realize WHY Israel is a "Top 10 military power," right? Thanks in large part to our tax dollars. IMO its time we get some ROI.

_________________

Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

February 20th, 2012, 3:42 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: What is so special about Israel?

TheRealWags wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

last I checked Isreal is still a top 10 military power

You do realize WHY Israel is a "Top 10 military power," right? Thanks in large part to our tax dollars. IMO its time we get some ROI.

IMO we're getting it right now, while they're putting REAL pressure on Iran and Obama is sitting on his thumbs.

February 20th, 2012, 3:45 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12312

Re: What is so special about Israel?

wjb21ndtown wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

last I checked Isreal is still a top 10 military power

You do realize WHY Israel is a "Top 10 military power," right? Thanks in large part to our tax dollars. IMO its time we get some ROI.

IMO we're getting it right now, while they're putting REAL pressure on Iran and Obama is sitting on his thumbs.

REAL pressure for what exactly? The rhetoric about Iran's nuclear capabilities? There are reports while they may be able to enrich Uranium to a level capable for use in Energy and Medical cases(< 20%), but from what I understand they are still along ways off being capable of weapons-grade enrichment (80%). Thought that's not to say they couldn't create a "dirty weapon"...then again, there a LOTS of countries that have that capability...

Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but where is the disdain for Iran coming from? Yes, I remember the hostage taking however couldn't that be considered a response / retaliation for the US overthrowing their democratically elected regime? (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Irani ... 7%C3%A9tat)

_________________

Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

February 20th, 2012, 3:54 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: What is so special about Israel?

TheRealWags wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

last I checked Isreal is still a top 10 military power

You do realize WHY Israel is a "Top 10 military power," right? Thanks in large part to our tax dollars. IMO its time we get some ROI.

IMO we're getting it right now, while they're putting REAL pressure on Iran and Obama is sitting on his thumbs.

Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but where is the disdain for Iran coming from? Yes, I remember the hostage taking however couldn't that be considered a response / retaliation for the US overthrowing their democratically elected regime? (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Irani ... 7%C3%A9tat)

How about their desire to refine weapons grade nuclear material? That's good enough for me.