Yeah, Oggie, it's the thread that won't die, isn't it. Snow biking tomorrow? You must have got the same dump as we did here in Waterloo.

Drew

we hit the Hilton Falls/Agreement Forest on Boxing Day - oh boy, was it ever awesome... can't wait for another snowfall or two, so that the snow packs down - which makes riding in the rock even more fun... there were a few groups riding at the same time... nothing better than stopping for a minute or two and exchanging pleasantries and occasional banter with fellow riders, before saddling up for more...

hit me with PM if you are interested in jumping in on a ride or two... i have a great bunch of fun guys and gals riding with all winter.... good banter is priceless...

Cycling was here before Armstrong, it will do just fine without him. Maybe even better if the removal of Armstrong from recent cycling lore helps to give some credibility to the sport instead of going the way of professional wrestling. Armstrong certainly wasn't the first to use PEDs nor is he the source of all PED use, but don't kid yourself that Armstrong wasn't a major cog in the wheel of PEDs in the pro road scene, in many more ways than just another end user.

Many other pros have been sanctioned and stripped of major wins, including two recent TdF wins that were reversed. Should Armstrong be exempt from the somehow? I can't think of any reason why.

His get out of jail free card with the UCI is worthless now. Stick a fork in him, he's done. Good riddance and all that stuff too.

..and where each athlete relies on their own personal strength, Lance had enough money to secure, maintain, and lead in the pharmaceutical field. This plus his infamous machinations gave him diabolical influence. This has nothing to do with an even playing field, with or without drugs.

Losing a key witness is an evidentiary problem. I love it when people who are tryung to be argumentative agree with me

losing a witness (or even 5) would not have impacted this case or been an evidentiary problem. still close to 30 left!

again -- the DOJ did not disclose the purpose for not pursuing the case. your assumption that it was from a lack of evidence is just that... an assumption and nothing more for which you have absolutely ZERO basis to reach such a conclusion. yet again, had you done your homework before entering this debate you'd know that briotti ceased the investigation AGAINST the advice of his assistants and despite compiling a mountain of evidence against LA. it was a move that shocked most everyone connected with the investigation. heck, you even got that information spoon-fed that to ya in this thread.... so perhaps it is YOUR reading comprehension that's questionable?

speaking of which, if you even remotely think that tone's was agreeing with you then you definitely have some rather profound reading comprehension issues and deficits.

that being said, you really shouldn't be throwing snarky comments and insults around. it's not that i disapprove or that it's inappropriate in general cuz i love it and don't mind a good debate peppered with little personal jabs here and there. but with you getting all butt hurt and neg repping because you thought you were being personally insulted (when you actually were not) you're not really in a position to be snarky. and trust me, if the benign comments osokolo and i made bent your delicate little feelers you're a little too thin skinned to start getting sideways around here, cuz you'll be eaten alive.

This is a very polemical issue... Dopping is a polemical issue.
Lance is a huge rider and I believe that most of you agree with me.
Probably, he had ride doped and the others? They were all clean? If you make a little research about the riders that finished in second place, when lance's win. Most of them are tested positive...

This is a very polemical issue... Dopping is a polemical issue.
Lance is a huge rider and I believe that most of you agree with me.
Probably, he had ride doped and the others? They were all clean? If you make a little research about the riders that finished in second place, when lance's win. Most of them are tested positive...

cheers

You could start a topic on onter riders, but here it's Lance, and what ever the other have done. In doesn't make Lance inocent, Our maybe he is... But for sure he dopep!

Lance Armstrong has been nominated for Texan of the Year – but not as a sterling example of the Lone Star State's population. The Dallas Morning News has nominated him for its award as a top newsmaker who has had a great impact.

“Armstrong’s crash to Earth in 2012, with all its painful reverberations, leaves a Texas-size crater that qualifies him as a finalist for this year’s distinction. His fall wasn’t pleasant to behold,” the newspaper said in an editorial. “If nothing else, it’s a lesson about the perils of hero worship.”

The title is one which does not necessarily reflect well on the recipient. “The Dallas Morning News Texan of the Year is a distinction we bestow for impact, be it for better or for worse. It reflects the prominence of what Texans do, not what we’d prefer them to do.”

Armstrong, a lifelong resident of Texas, first came to notice in the state as a teenage triathlete. He enthralled millions of Texans and fans around the world as he came back from cancer to win seven consecutive Tours de France, and raised millions of dollars from this Livestrong Foundation.

But the legend came to an end in 2012. “This year came the epic fall, a legacy imploded in weeks. The head of the U.S. anti-doping agency revealed him as a serial cheat, the enforcer of 'the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.' Sponsors abandoned Armstrong. Nike said he misled the company for a decade.

“Now the Armstrong brand will forever be that of a fighter, a survivor and a cunning, steely-eyed liar.”

i remember a radio talk show i listen to while driving to work about the whole Roger Clemens situation and other " top " athletes. one guy said something like, " Everyone is doping which puts them all on the same playing field. If only 2 or 3 guys are actually accomplishing anything in conjunction with skill how is that cheating? It takes more then drugs to get the win " ...

Probably, he had ride doped and the others? They were all clean? If you make a little research about the riders that finished in second place, when lance's win. Most of them are tested positive...

Many of those other TdF 2nd/3rd place finishers have been sanctioned with major results stripped. Other TdF winners also sanctioned and TdF wins stripped. Armstrong now sanctioned with TdF wins stripped. Seems fair enough to me.

Originally Posted by shwinn8

i remember a radio talk show i listen to while driving to work about the whole Roger Clemens situation and other " top " athletes. one guy said something like, " Everyone is doping which puts them all on the same playing field. If only 2 or 3 guys are actually accomplishing anything in conjunction with skill how is that cheating? It takes more then drugs to get the win " ...

No level playing field in this case. Armstrong was given wiggle room to dope up more heavily and more frequently than other riders. Described in detail in many earlier posts in this thread.

i remember a radio talk show i listen to while driving to work about the whole Roger Clemens situation and other " top " athletes. one guy said something like, " Everyone is doping which puts them all on the same playing field. If only 2 or 3 guys are actually accomplishing anything in conjunction with skill how is that cheating? It takes more then drugs to get the win " ...

There is also that statement that the sport was becoming somewhat clean and Lance came in doping in full force and the other teams had to start doing it again.

But I think it all does not matter, he/they cheated so they are all bad no matter how level the playing field was, which at least in my opinion was not level anyway.

Yes, there is a prescribed point of view that certain posters in this thread have. If you don't agree not only with their major conclusion but every other point they believe in, you will get called a bunch of names like we're all back in third grade. It's the worst of internet debating, in one thread.

Here's why you are a troll.
You just want to argue for the sake of arguing, you stopped making ground on your first post.
If you actually did read through the thread, you find that they aren't pov's but facts. If you did in fact read the thread, the only conclusion I can come up is is that you are extremely iggnorant to the facts, YES FACTS...As I said stated previously in a post, LA's fans have nothing left to grasp onto, except their shlong and "everyone else was doping". Keep on milking. When it gets to a certain point name calling sometimes get thrown around, thats only because you are one arrogant, single minded individual.
You've played you're last card.

I never said that Lance wasn't a cheater... He should be punished for what he did but in the correct time, not now, 10 years later.
Every cheater should be punished in every type of sports, but not only in cycling.

Again, simpleminded as all hell. I agree with you Lance was doping, never said otherwise. My only "crime" in this thread was being too subtle for you. So no one is disagreeing with facts. If you can't handle someone saying "I agree he was doping, but I disagree with the process and I don't think the whole thing is good for the sport" then you are one big ass olympic quality simpleton. In fact, I would need "doping" to become that simplistic and dull.

This board s usually a pleasure, I guess you and a couple of others here are too overwhelmed with emotion to actually have a discussion about the subject.

LOL, you must be going for the award of biggest Hypocrite on this site, your upset at others getting too overwhelmed with emotion, but at the same time your calling them big assed olympic quality simpletons, not only that but along the way you have decided to change your story to suit yourself, first your arguing that there is no evidence, all the witnesses are being bought off and its a big conspirecy to now saying you think he is guilty...

Mate, whats it going to be, you cant fool anybody here, go back and read your posts for the last few pages.
This is like the muppet show....

Here's why you are a troll.
You just want to argue for the sake of arguing, you stopped making ground on your first post.
If you actually did read through the thread, you find that they aren't pov's but facts. If you did in fact read the thread, the only conclusion I can come up is is that you are extremely iggnorant to the facts, YES FACTS...As I said stated previously in a post, LA's fans have nothing left to grasp onto, except their shlong and "everyone else was doping". Keep on milking. When it gets to a certain point name calling sometimes get thrown around, thats only because you are one arrogant, single minded individual.
You've played you're last card.

First, Lance had to be taking testosterone because he had a testicle remove, which means he was producing a very small amount of his own testosterone. However the problem lays within the question of what’s a normal test level? Go into any high school class to see why that’s such a difficult question… some males like they are 24 and others like they are 14..why? Because everyone produces such a wide range of hormone levels… The avg male produces 400 to 1200 mcg of test. So one racer could be at 440 and Lance could be at 1199 (prescribed test) and both normal.
But at any rate the basic point is the league had been on a “witch hunt” with Lance since he won his first Tour De France… and it was never proven. I think once someone is no longer competing, than it’s no longer an issue… game over! If he was caught like many others within months of when they competed, then he is busted and all awards removed for cheating. But part of the responsibility of the league is prove it while they are competing.... improve their methods of testing if they feel still others are cheating… but to the rest who may have … the league need to just “SHUTUP”. Hey who knows… Babe Ruth and Jim Brown may have been the biggest dopers… oh well. They got away with it… no one can prove that they never used drugs…

Arguing that "there is no evidence." Nope. Didn't happen. If you go back and read, and try to do it slowly enough that it might penetrate your faulty cognition, you will find that I said that when prosecutions are dropped, that usually means there is a problem with the evidence and that the prosecutor thinks he can't get a conviction. That is a far cry from saying there is "no evidence." I've even mentioned the evidence I found persuasive. So, I wasn't saying there was "no evidence" at amy point and you know that unless you're just being a dick.

"all the witnesses being bought" - Nope, never said that either. In fact, I never said any witness was "bought", or implied it either.

"it's a big conspiracy" - I never said that either, or implied it.

Other than that, your post is just name calling. I hope that you make it to fourth grade. Give your mom my best!

Mate your a bloke that belittles others and name calls then at the same time accuse others of doing it, you love to make out your a victim and a saint, your above few posts are prime examples.
Your a dreamer, go back and read your posts, you are totally dellusional Dave, your not fooling anybody mate, the only one your fooling is yourself..
Not to mention your an Agrade hypocrite, your as much a victim as you think poor lance is, mate get a grip and wake up, your not fooling anybody, your posts are there for all to see....

Ok, well, quote me then, using the cut-and-paste feature you know and love so well.

Quote me where I said that Lance was innocent.

Quote me where I said there was "no evidence"

Quote me where I said he didn't dope.

Quote me where I said witnesses were bought off.

Quote me where I said it was "a big conspiracy"

Go!

You can't do it, because it doesn't exist. You're just in a tizzy because you can't out debate me on the issue, you lack the ability to see finer points, and all you've got at the end of the day is the ability to misconstrue what I've said and call people names. And what's more, you can't even hold your own with your two or three surrogates helping you. Give it a rest, and go back to nursing your feelings of inadequacy in front of the tele, or whatever it is they call it in Australia. Geez!

Go back and read your posts Dave, from the start, i ask anybody to do the same, im not playing your games, i couldnt be bothered, its there for all to see..
Cheers ,and keep playing the victim, it suits you.