Havent read this whole thread but from previous posts.. rack stikes me as an honest and enthusiastic person.. if a bit caustic... ie... opinionated... and we all have opinions... take it with a grain of salt

I don't see anything negative in arguing for better rights and pay for all musicians, or creative people.
Most of the negativity I see on Gearslutz is from posters who are more often consuming than producing.
Of course the public want better, cheaper entertainment. It's a given.
They also want better, cheaper cars, and better, cheaper food.
You shouldn't criticise farmers when they say they can't continue to provide quality with the low levels of income they currently enjoy.

Havent read this whole thread but from previous posts.. rack stikes me as an honest and enthusiastic person.. if a bit caustic... ie... opinionated... and we all have opinions... take it with a grain of salt

You get lost in the muck if that's all you focus on. What's MOST IMPORTANT is the fact that sales of independently produced albums and other recordings have skyrocketed by several thousand percent over the same period.

that's completely, statistically and factually untrue...

but for the sake of argument... the good news is your sales have doubled... the bad news is you went from selling TWO copies to selling FOUR copies... either way, inconsequential...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

Furthermore, hundreds of thousands of musical artists submit their demos and music to the major record companies every year, with only a hundred or so being signed to contract. And of those signed, most will fail. The net effect is that when you look at it that way, producing and marketing the the music in your basement is really not that bad of a deal!

64% less record sales, 45% less professional musicians... the pie is getting smaller no matter how you look at it, you have LESS opportunities for a professional creative career not more... and that's just a fact.

and as far as not making it on labels... my A&R guy was signed to two major labels over the course of six years. the first label he was on tour opening for a massive act, his single was released, the video went to mtv, and the album stiffed... he was dropped... less than a year later he was signed again, to another major label, spent another three years making an album, touring, and working with the best producers and songwriters... the label and band couldn't agree on a single, so the band exercised their option to be released from the label and got a fat six figure release fee...

so you know what he did for six years of "not making it?" he was a professional musician who did nothing else but make music and live his life touring and making music... not bad for "not making it"...

will you being doing that for the next six years while you are not making it?

You guys are missing one key statement made by Mr. Corgan during this, and several other recent appearances.

So, I'm going to try to steer things back to the origins of the thread rather than beat any dead horses.

He's repeatedly stated that the MTV model works, and that no network is doing that now, nor is there a music video only oriented video website or streaming technology that really works.

Visual components helped with selling music for decades, and now most music is listened too in the background on tiny computer speakers.

It's not dynamic, or immersible, or visually compelling, it's just like music in an elevator that way.

I think Spotify, or Pandora will eventually have to offer a music video streaming service...or another company will have to step up and do it. Not to "save the music industry", but to refocus it a bit. Youtube works, but people can change what they're watching so fast that it's hard to get them to really listen to anything. Forget sales for now, new American legislation that will be starting on July 12th will be hurting torrenting in the states, and the kids of this generation don't know to associate music with money anyway, so more awkward adjustment time toward finding a new system will continue.

Only artists who persevere and make human connections will get anywhere either way. But I like the idea of something modern that's more focused on music video components.

So personally, I'm off to ponder what to do with my "fiefdom" as he put it.

I don't know the answer to that, but I would bet that it has something to do with what was happening with radio at the time. The beginning of the end of radio breaking new artists started with corporate takeovers in the 90s with the 1st legislation signed in (I believe) '91 by Bush Sr. and later in (I believe) '96 by Clinton that did away with restrictions on how many radio stations any one entity could own.

That's when Clearchannel, etc. began buying entire regions' worth of radio stations and formatting them according to minute demographic classifications. New artists and/or songs played per week went down into low single digits. Listener requests gradually became a thing of the past. Radio went from being a force in creating relationships between new artists and fans to being a rather boring shill for "safe bets."

I'm betting that the relationship between the labels and radio also affected the relationship between the labels and Mtv. Also, Mtv pioneered the reality show concept (damn them!) and who can blame them for riding that horse?

I'll say this, though. Seven letters say that Corgan is right about videos still working: Y.O.U.T.U.B.E.

I actually think MTV started getting higher ratings from reality tv.
Something more pioneered in Europe actually (The Family, Big Brother etc).
And lets not continually frame the discussion around American radio.
The music industry is global, and so is the reach of MTV.

I actually think MTV started getting higher ratings from reality tv.
Something more pioneered in Europe actually (The Family, Big Brother etc).
And lets not continually frame the discussion around American radio.
The music industry is global, and so is the reach of MTV.

Yeah, I referenced the higher ratings for the then pioneering reality shows. As for international MTV, didn't other countries have their own MTV programming?

Again, if you deny that people would still watch music videos you have to somehow deal with YouTube, where millions of people go out of their way every day to watch music videos. I think MTV stopped showing videos because people stopped watching them there. People stopped watching them there not because they got tired of videos per se but because MTV stopped leading and creating musical trends and started trying to follow them instead. Which is exactly what happened with radio at the time. I think it's not a coincidence.

I actually think MTV started getting higher ratings from reality tv.
Something more pioneered in Europe actually (The Family, Big Brother etc).
And lets not continually frame the discussion around American radio.
The music industry is global, and so is the reach of MTV.

That's true, but there is nothing to watch on TV now except reality shows. Perhaps if they returned to their roots it would make them stand out now.

Yes, but it could be that kids aren't interested in music videos any more and Corgan is wrong. He came to prominence in the MTV age after all. He could be pining for a scene he knows and understands.

Marketing generally follows the market.
If there was a burning need for music videos, there would be more places to see them.
If MTV had more viewers for music videos than reality shows, they would switch.

Yes, but it could be that kids aren't interested in music videos any more and Corgan is wrong. He came to prominence in the MTV age after all. He could be pining for a scene he knows and understands.

Marketing generally follows the market.
If there was a burning need for music videos, there would be more places to see them.
If MTV had more viewers for music videos than reality shows, they would switch.

LOL, Youtube is the place to see them. I suppose they can't compete with that.

Simply because the numbers don't catch the part-timers who make up the vast majority of the musical workforce. Ever hear of the guy working as a stand up comedian who can't quit his day job? Same with millions of musicians. Most of us were not born into inheritance or with a rich daddy. Worse (or better! ... actually), many of us have families and that come FIRST even before music. So the net effect is an ARMY of part-time musicians in the work force that are FULL-TIME in terms of professionalism and TALENT, who are just as committed as you or anyone else.

no doubt...

but there's still LESS professional working musicians than there were in 2002... and that's related to there being 64% less music sales than there was in 1999... that's how it works... that's not guess work, that's fact...

most of those part timers are at best making a few grand a year, maybe... really that's a HUGE maybe... the majority are probably making music at a net loss once you factor in gear purchases and hourly labor invested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

And I have news for you.....

GS has more of these part timers than full timers. And I believe they drive the MAJORITY of equipment sales.

dude, that's NOT news... this is exactly why there is so much resistance on GS to understand the dynamics of a professional career... who exactly do you think is unaware of this fact?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

My home studio has tens of thousands of $$$ of equipment, and I'm just a small fish in a big home studio pond. You have to surely be aware that thousands of guys have well over $100K plus into their home studios. This is the future of music. Society will reap great benefits from this.

Wishful thinking bro, wishful thinking... just because the means of production has been democratized, and the means of distribution has been democratized does not mean that talent itself has been democratized...

FWIW, GS cannot exist with the small guys who I believe are buying most new studio gear. We run the economics of this site. We are already running a significant part of the music world and we grow every year.

yes, you are... so what? let me tell you the story about Guitar Center as told to me by a friend of mine who sells them gear as a national account...

Quote:

you think that GC is selling is selling Guitars, they not. They're selling "the dream" it just comes packaged as a guitar.

The point is you are the future of the Musical Instruments Sales world, which is a lot different from the professional creative world.

I wish everyone the best, but you need to wake up. Things are worse for you now than they've probably ever been and just because you can put a homebrew album up on Tunecore for $50 a year doesn't mean you'll make a living making music. The average tunecore artists is making like $277 a year...

you don't want to hear it, and I understand that denial is powerful, but you can't SOLVE a problem if you don't RECOGNIZE the problem...

It turned out that the average Tunecore artist was making just $179 a year - and that was before any annual fees. But now, it turns out there's an even more depressing figure: 99.875% - or nearly all - of Tunecore artists are making less than minimum wage through the platform, based on revenue figures recently shared by the company.

Look, I like you Rack, but you love to come on here and tell us all we'll never make it.

That just smacks of supreme arrogance.

that's absolutely not true. I want you to make it. I'm sorry if it comes across any other way. What I'm telling you is that by not protecting your rights, your odds of making it diminish every day, and are already diminished by at least 50%.

I'm fighting FOR you, not against you. I don't know why being faced with the reality of the situation is offensive to you... well, ok, it should be offensive and that's also why you should understand who is stealing your ability to have a professional career from you, and it's not me.

as I said before, I know in my bones it's harder for your guys than it ever was for me, at least TWICE as hard for you (statistically speaking).

I'm dumbfounded as to why you would gladly turn your career over to internet companies who are going to exploit you for profit, but I'm the bad guy? Seriously?

I spend more time fighting for guys like you than you can image.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shock Value

We (on an individual level) can't stop what's happening with the world, all we can do is be the best ****ing artists we can be and let the chips fall where they may.

BS. You can have a voice. As a creator and an artist you have the most IMPORTANT voice. And it's not Either/or as some would want you to believe.

I do what I do every day, I've adapted and evolved. I'm still standing. I have not given up. I am a part of the current reality because there is no avoiding it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just stop and give up against the tyranny of tech companies ripping off artists without consent or compensation worse than labels ever did.

I wont' accept that, and I don't think you should either. But hey, like I said, you can lead a horse to water and it's your career...

I do what I do every day, I've adapted and evolved. I'm still standing. I have not given up. I am a part of the current reality because there is no avoiding it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just stop and give up against the tyranny of tech companies ripping off artists without consent or compensation worse than labels ever did.

I wont' accept that, and I don't think you should either. But hey, like I said, you can lead a horse to water and it's your career...

that's absolutely not true. I want you to make it. I'm sorry if it comes across any other way. What I'm telling you is that by not protecting your rights, your odds of making it diminish every day, and are already diminished by at least 50%.

I'm fighting FOR you, not against you. I don't know why being faced with the reality of the situation is offensive to you... well, ok, it should be offensive and that's also why you should understand who is stealing your ability to have a professional career from you, and it's not me.

as I said before, I know in my bones it's harder for your guys than it ever was for me, at least TWICE as hard for you (statistically speaking).

I'm dumbfounded as to why you would gladly turn your career over to internet companies who are going to exploit you for profit, but I'm the bad guy? Seriously?

I spend more time fighting for guys like you than you can image.

BS. You can have a voice. As a creator and an artist you have the most IMPORTANT voice. And it's not Either/or as some would want you to believe.

I do what I do every day, I've adapted and evolved. I'm still standing. I have not given up. I am a part of the current reality because there is no avoiding it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just stop and give up against the tyranny of tech companies ripping off artists without consent or compensation worse than labels ever did.

I wont' accept that, and I don't think you should either. But hey, like I said, you can lead a horse to water and it's your career...

Bottom line: Don't get discouraged when you have to supplement your music career with a day job. If you aren't alright with that fact, then you are in it for the wrong reasons. True artists express themselves because they love to, not to make money doing it, it would just be very nice to make a living on it in the process.

Bottom line: Don't get discouraged when you have to supplement your music career with a day job. If you aren't alright with that fact, then you are in it for the wrong reasons. True artists express themselves because they love to, not to make money doing it, it would just be very nice to make a living on it in the process.

absolute nonsense, sorry.

do doctors not need to be paid? do mechanics not need to be paid? shouldn't everyone do what they do because the love it?