Why God must exist

My experience has been that if You expect God to be, you experience God and find evidence of God everywhere, it's indisputable to me.

But if you don't expect God to be, you will ignore the wonderful miracles and never feel Gods love or ignore it or dismiss it as something else.

It's OK to question Gods existence though, that's honesty though I hope those people open up and allow for the possibility.

It's all Magic! Everything we do, everything we experience, every atom and all the multiverse; it's one giant miracle once you start to see it that way :)

It's all the mind of God, God has a whim and all of creation comes into being and who knows how many? Qabalah helps explain it but I don't think were capable of really comprehending it, our heads would explode long before.

It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding...

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584

All I KNOW is that God is the first cause.

Quoting: Amilius

You do know that you are deviating away from your original argument, right? We could discuss the first cause argument if you'd like, but we should stay on topic and get through this one first. I'd like to see the light bulb switch on in your head.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

First cause should also be omnipotent as it could create universes. Something incorporeal, unmoved and omnipotent. That seems like God to me.

Quoting: Amilius

So, are we just going to ignore how your original argument was ripped to shreds? Then, when this one gets ripped to shreds, you'll just go on to some other argument? No thanks.

You do know that you are deviating away from your original argument, right? We could discuss the first cause argument if you'd like, but we should stay on topic and get through this one first. I'd like to see the light bulb switch on in your head.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

First cause should also be omnipotent as it could create universes. Something incorporeal, unmoved and omnipotent. That seems like God to me.

Quoting: Amilius

So, are we just going to ignore how your original argument was ripped to shreds? Then, when this one gets ripped to shreds, you'll just go on to some other argument? No thanks.

Yea yea yea. I believed in Santa and the Easter Bunny too, but I grew up.

All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

You do know that you are deviating away from your original argument, right? We could discuss the first cause argument if you'd like, but we should stay on topic and get through this one first. I'd like to see the light bulb switch on in your head.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

First cause should also be omnipotent as it could create universes. Something incorporeal, unmoved and omnipotent. That seems like God to me.

Quoting: Amilius

So, are we just going to ignore how your original argument was ripped to shreds? Then, when this one gets ripped to shreds, you'll just go on to some other argument? No thanks.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

You ripped nothing to shreds, liar.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

It was a dare, of sorts. The OP seems to lack motivation to answer my question. I would like to see anyone answer it, actually. You maybe?

If you don't have to explain how god came to exist on the basis that he is not subject to time, on what grounds can you assume the universe itself is subject to time, and therefore needs an explanation as to how it came to exist?

First cause should also be omnipotent as it could create universes. Something incorporeal, unmoved and omnipotent. That seems like God to me.

Quoting: Amilius

So, are we just going to ignore how your original argument was ripped to shreds? Then, when this one gets ripped to shreds, you'll just go on to some other argument? No thanks.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

You ripped nothing to shreds, liar.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

It was a dare, of sorts. The OP seems to lack motivation to answer my question. I would like to see anyone answer it, actually. You maybe?

If you don't have to explain how god came to exist on the basis that he is not subject to time, on what grounds can you assume the universe itself is subject to time, and therefore needs an explanation as to how it came to exist?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Evolution is a lie. It has never been observed. That is how you know we have been created. There is no other option left.

So, are we just going to ignore how your original argument was ripped to shreds? Then, when this one gets ripped to shreds, you'll just go on to some other argument? No thanks.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

You ripped nothing to shreds, liar.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

It was a dare, of sorts. The OP seems to lack motivation to answer my question. I would like to see anyone answer it, actually. You maybe?

If you don't have to explain how god came to exist on the basis that he is not subject to time, on what grounds can you assume the universe itself is subject to time, and therefore needs an explanation as to how it came to exist?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Evolution is a lie. It has never been observed. That is how you know we have been created. There is no other option left.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

This is what I am talking about. The only option left for a person who is incapable of defending their position is to drift from argument to argument until you tire out your opponent.

Are we arguing over the fine-tuning argument, first cause argument, or evolution?

It was a dare, of sorts. The OP seems to lack motivation to answer my question. I would like to see anyone answer it, actually. You maybe?

If you don't have to explain how god came to exist on the basis that he is not subject to time, on what grounds can you assume the universe itself is subject to time, and therefore needs an explanation as to how it came to exist?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Evolution is a lie. It has never been observed. That is how you know we have been created. There is no other option left.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

This is what I am talking about. The only option left for a person who is incapable of defending their position is to drift from argument to argument until you tire out your opponent.

Are we arguing over the fine-tuning argument, first cause argument, or evolution?

The fine tuning argument says there must have been a god. It was said that if the universe has had a change by 1 in 10^100 the universe wouldn't exist or would not be habitable for life. Roger Penrose who is a British mathematician said the chance of our universe to be coming to exist and being able to have life is 1 in 10^10^123. So in order for the universe to exist and be so finely tuned there must have been an incorporeal first cause that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omnipotent. Those are the characteristics of a god.

Quoting: Amilius

"god" is the creative mind of the whole creation. If you have any creative mind you are part of it. Those bossy folks that are labeled "God" is the spiritual hierarchy that babysits the whole thing.

There are many species of dinosaur, including the famous archeopteryx, who had feathers. The imprint of the feathers are clearly visible in the fossils. There are plenty of dinosaurs who could not fly, yet had feathers, suggesting alternative reasons other than flight. Mating rituals, gliding abilities, appearance of being larger are some suggestions. Some species of bird today are born in trees, and must eventually get to the ground. Feathers would make this feat easier. Over time, the birds found gliding, and consequently, flying, to be beneficial for obvious reasons.

We know that if we find a dinosaur with very little feathers in one layer of sediment, you are not going to find dinosaurs with more feathers in lower layers. As you move up the layers of sediment, you will find that you can watch as evolution took place from dinosaur to bird. I find it hard to believe that a great flood would separate the animals in this sequence. This also applies to many other species.

Ok, so now that I posted this, what argument are you going to go to next without addressing what I'm saying? This is fun, huh?

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Asking this question poses the problem of infinite regress; it is explained here:

You said a creature cannot evolve and learn to fly. Now you want to talk about global warming? So, after global warming, will you bring up gravity? Or the moon?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Learn to fly? It's not about learning, it is about evolution. It is about pigs getting wings. There is no prove for that.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

Oh yea? Well many scientists believe gravity and the moon exists, but they also believe in global warming, so I think I should stick my privates in a light socket. Good?

Pancakes!!!! Bananas!!!!

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

I don't need scientists to tell me that gravity and the moon exist.

Do you believe in global warming, because scientists say so?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

I believe that you have downs syndrome and can't comprehend anything I am saying. If you doubt me, read this thread. After reading, if you still think that you appear at least semi-normal, you have downs syndrome.

Learn to fly? It's not about learning, it is about evolution. It is about pigs getting wings. There is no prove for that.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

Oh yea? Well many scientists believe gravity and the moon exists, but they also believe in global warming, so I think I should stick my privates in a light socket. Good?

Pancakes!!!! Bananas!!!!

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

I don't need scientists to tell me that gravity and the moon exist.

Do you believe in global warming, because scientists say so?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

I believe that you have downs syndrome and can't comprehend anything I am saying. If you doubt me, read this thread. After reading, if you still think that you appear at least semi-normal, you have downs syndrome.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Your problem is that you are a retard who believe pigs learn to fly if you put them in the "right conditions".

Your problem is that your own retardation pollutes everyting you try to understand. Therefore everything you think you understand is in reality retarded rubbish.

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Asking this question poses the problem of infinite regress; it is explained here:

I don't believe infinite regress addresses my argument based on the fact that I am not saying a god exists only if you can explain who created him, and who created the creator's creator etc.

I am saying that attributing the property of being outside of time to god as a cheap way of avoiding explaining his existence means that you can also attribute this to the universe itself, thus avoiding the need to explain how it got here.

I am atheist and don't engage in assumptions about the universe (or god) without evidence, but the OP seems to have no problem with this. I am just asking why he/she specifically cannot imagine the universe being outside of time.

Oh yea? Well many scientists believe gravity and the moon exists, but they also believe in global warming, so I think I should stick my privates in a light socket. Good?

Pancakes!!!! Bananas!!!!

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

I don't need scientists to tell me that gravity and the moon exist.

Do you believe in global warming, because scientists say so?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

I believe that you have downs syndrome and can't comprehend anything I am saying. If you doubt me, read this thread. After reading, if you still think that you appear at least semi-normal, you have downs syndrome.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Your problem is that you are a retard who believe pigs learn to fly if you put them in the "right conditions".

Your problem is that your own retardation pollutes everyting you try to understand. Therefore everything you think you understand is in reality retarded rubbish.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

First, I think you need to learn how to read. After that, look up what a straw-man argument is and "moving the goalpost."

These two logical fallacies are clearly demonstrated by you and the other god-believers in here. That might help you to understand how stupid you are making the "pro-god" crowd look in this forum. Don't you want your position to be represented by smart people?

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Asking this question poses the problem of infinite regress; it is explained here:

I don't believe infinite regress addresses my argument based on the fact that I am not saying a god exists only if you can explain who created him, and who created the creator's creator etc.

I am saying that attributing the property of being outside of time to god as a cheap way of avoiding explaining his existence means that you can also attribute this to the universe itself, thus avoiding the need to explain how it got here.

I am atheist and don't engage in assumptions about the universe (or god) without evidence, but the OP seems to have no problem with this. I am just asking why he/she specifically cannot imagine the universe being outside of time.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Touche! None of us knows how He came to exist, but, in the end, based on what we know about ourselves and the universe, it is not absurd to conclude that there is a deity greater than ourselves. It isn't cheap if we are using the only viable evidence available and even using scientific tools and ideas. People cried when Christians tried explaining with just their own experiences and the world is still boohooing when intelligent and educated men and women search out God in the physical and scientific realm. There just seems no winning for those who see intelligent design behind our existence, but the real bottom line is neither can evolutionist truly prove otherwise.

Even those who know nothing about Christianity or science have come to the conclusion of a Creator or deity greater than themselves for millennia and from a variety of cultures with no way of being tainted by the other. Having these cultures validate what the Christian God tells us in the Bible, that we would be able to find Him by just looking around us sort of clenches that it is a possibility, wouldn't you think?

I believe that you have downs syndrome and can't comprehend anything I am saying. If you doubt me, read this thread. After reading, if you still think that you appear at least semi-normal, you have downs syndrome.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Your problem is that you are a retard who believe pigs learn to fly if you put them in the "right conditions".

Your problem is that your own retardation pollutes everyting you try to understand. Therefore everything you think you understand is in reality retarded rubbish.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

First, I think you need to learn how to read. After that, look up what a straw-man argument is and "moving the goalpost."

These two logical fallacies are clearly demonstrated by you and the other god-believers in here. That might help you to understand how stupid you are making the "pro-god" crowd look in this forum. Don't you want your position to be represented by smart people?

Thinking of how complex and perfect our universe appears, wouldn't the designer have to be even more complex and perfect? This explanation you propose, god existing, is actually giving you an even larger problem to explain. Instead of taking the position that we simply don't know how the universe came to be this way, you have to accept that you simply cannot explain how something more complex (god) came into existence.

So, I have to accept that I cannot explain how the universe came to be.

You have to accept that you cannot explain how god came to be. This is arguably an even greater problem than I have, and it essentially STILL doesn't fundamentally explain anything.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Asking this question poses the problem of infinite regress; it is explained here:

I don't believe infinite regress addresses my argument based on the fact that I am not saying a god exists only if you can explain who created him, and who created the creator's creator etc.

I am saying that attributing the property of being outside of time to god as a cheap way of avoiding explaining his existence means that you can also attribute this to the universe itself, thus avoiding the need to explain how it got here.

I am atheist and don't engage in assumptions about the universe (or god) without evidence, but the OP seems to have no problem with this. I am just asking why he/she specifically cannot imagine the universe being outside of time.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Touche! None of us knows how He came to exist, but, in the end, based on what we know about ourselves and the universe, it is not absurd to conclude that there is a deity greater than ourselves. It isn't cheap if we are using the only viable evidence available and even using scientific tools and ideas. People cried when Christians tried explaining with just their own experiences and the world is still boohooing when intelligent and educated men and women search out God in the physical and scientific realm. There just seems no winning for those who see intelligent design behind our existence, but the real bottom line is neither can evolutionist truly prove otherwise.

Even those who know nothing about Christianity or science have come to the conclusion of a Creator or deity greater than themselves for millennia and from a variety of cultures with no way of being tainted by the other. Having these cultures validate what the Christian God tells us in the Bible, that we would be able to find Him by just looking around us sort of clenches that it is a possibility, wouldn't you think?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33154487

I don't think it is reasonable to think that anyone should have to prove or believe how the universe came to be. We simply don't know. The fact that you cannot prove god does not exist is not evidence that god exists.

Also, could you go into detail about why you think that since many cultures believe in a deity, it means that a deity exists?

I believe that you have downs syndrome and can't comprehend anything I am saying. If you doubt me, read this thread. After reading, if you still think that you appear at least semi-normal, you have downs syndrome.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8685274

Your problem is that you are a retard who believe pigs learn to fly if you put them in the "right conditions".

Your problem is that your own retardation pollutes everyting you try to understand. Therefore everything you think you understand is in reality retarded rubbish.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33120536

First, I think you need to learn how to read. After that, look up what a straw-man argument is and "moving the goalpost."

These two logical fallacies are clearly demonstrated by you and the other god-believers in here. That might help you to understand how stupid you are making the "pro-god" crowd look in this forum. Don't you want your position to be represented by smart people?

If I answer this question, you will say "aha! this guy thinks pigs can fly!" This will be used by you to make me seem idiotic, by using a strawman argument, which you apparently did not look up. I know you don't know what a strawman is because you are using it, and plan to as soon as I answer your moronic question.

My answer is since God is the first cause GOD HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. The universe, though, came to exist. How is not known by modern science.

Quoting: Amilius

But how do you know what God is or what he represents?

God could be a super advanced computer or a machine of sorts.

It's us humans who try to make him/it human for a lack of understanding...

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 33102584

Try to think outside of our creations.. No wonder you cant fathom the easiest of things. In order for life, there must be a source, hence, this source is not a machine, simply because a machine needs us in order to sustain, either mobility, our created "force" for it to function, our instructions how to operate.

God, The Creator, is a force, to hard to comprehend, but, as loving as He is, He simplifies things, so a child would understand it :P

Go, and search all you want.. use all your knowledge, you wont understand it AT all, because you simply cant accept the fact, that there is A Creator, a high power we call God.

You have so many questions, if its His will, you will come to understanding.