So apparently there's this whole trend of startups dropping piles of electric-assisted kick scooters all over major cities, using a smartphone app to rent them out, and using the Gig Economy™ to repair and charge them... and the cities rightly being up in arms about this crap being dumped on their sidewalks.

I'll ignore the disgusting parts of this Silicon Valley Disruption™... there's another problem with this whole business.

The entire point of a kick scooter is that it's a form of transportation that's faster/lower effort than walking for the last mile, yet the scooters can be folded to an incredibly small size and taken with you.

Short-term bicycle rental makes sense - bicycles are bulky yet easily stolen, so having access to bicycles that you don't have to worry about is genuinely valuable.

But kick scooters? The whole point of a kick scooter over a bicycle is that you can take it with you reasonably!

Especially when you consider the pricing models of these companies - if you use them regularly, at a few bucks per ride in practice (one review I recently read claimed $3.20 for a 1 mile round trip, between per-minute charges and unlock charges), you could just... buy one before too long.

(And, apparently at those prices, the scooter companies are still losing money. Vandalism and theft probably aren't helping, but...)

@bhtooefr over here (UK) many of these things definitely *are* classed as "vehicles that need approval/license", a chap in my town was stopped by cops and put before the Court for riding one just recently!

He had been smoking pot *and* that model is a bit faster than is safe to use on the street where he got trouble, unlike bicycles and e-bikes they are not as welcome on streets (as they are also even more likely to be ridden on the pavement (sidewalk))

@vfrmedia Mind you, in most of the US, they're basically just illegal to use outside of private property because they don't fit into any legal category, but most of the time nobody cares because they're slow enough that it doesn't matter.

Don't ride one while black in the US, though.

(They're not bicycles because no pedals, they're not motorcycles because no lighting and not standardized motorcycle controls, they're not toys because motorized.)

@bhtooefr the laws here in England are the same TBH, and the chap who got nicked is likely to be of non UK ancestry..

But where he got trouble for riding is usually a busy area (I rarely ride my "normal" ebike there, it is not a safe/pleasant bit of street) and there are often cops about - as he said himself he'd been riding the thing in other areas of town without any bother (plus the few places in UK that do sell them aren't exactly transparent about their legal status as vehicles.)

@bhtooefr I guess we should be lucky that those things are illegal here, so they can't even try. And it's not just a bit illegal, it's "driving an unlicensed motor vehicle", which is like felony-illegal, you'd also be charged with driving without an insurance and if they somehow manage to declare it an (unlicensed) motorcycle, also driving without a license. So if you're unlucky it's upwards of 10k€ in fines and a driving ban of a year or so.

@vfrmedia@halfur Looks like in my state, Ohio, it's a minor misdemeanor, I think, to not display license plates. (It's a motor vehicle, but not one that fits into any class, in Ohio.)

Oddly, there is a law declaring that "electric personal assistive mobility devices" are legal and are not vehicles, but can be operated on public streets, highways, sidewalks, paths, and portions of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles. (EPAMDs are Segways, up to 750 W, up to 20 mph.)

@vfrmedia@halfur Meanwhile, 750 W/20 mph e-bikes fit perfectly into the motorized bicycle class (which are not motor vehicles but are vehicles, require registration and licensing, but can't use any bicycling infrastructure, and that class is weirdly restrictive - they need wider tires than most e-bikes, and tadpole trikes are forbidden (but deltas are allowed)), and electric kick scooters are motor vehicles that don't fit into any other class.

@bhtooefr@vfrmedia@halfur Here it's: Does it have a seat (and is not a segway)? It's not allowed on public roads. Does it go less than 5kph? It can drive on the sidewalk, needs insurance though, so does everything above this class. Does it go up to 25kph? It's a moped and must be driven on the street, but you can get a license for it once you're 15 (making it the earliest motor vehicle for many). Does it go up to 45kph? It's a scooter and can be driven with a car or motorcycle license.

@bhtooefr@vfrmedia Anything over 45kph needs a vehicle registration, needs TÜV (biennial thorough vehicle check), you have to pay taxes, a much more expensive insurance, and a specific motorcycle license. That's why the 45kph class is so common over here. Cheap (34€ insurance annually) and can be driven with the standard car driving license. My electric scooter falls into this category, and I love this thing. Have to keep off any cycle paths though.

@halfur@bhtooefr law in England and Wales and Scotland is now very similar to Germany (we are still in the EU for a couple of years and traffic laws are unlikely to change after Brexit), but electric scooters aren't that common (especially for younger people they feel if they have had to go through the driving test they want a car or larger motorcycle)

Some states, almost nothing electrified is legal unless it fits into moped or motorcycle registration. (A 45 km/h European moped is a full-on motorcycle in my state, for instance, except for being unable to access freeways.)

Some states, if it's under 150 cc it's legal without registration.

(The norm in most US states is 50 cc or less, 30 mph or less, as being the moped class, and many don't require a license or registration.)

@bhtooefr@halfur we do have a bizzare anomaly in UK where even 25 km/h pedelecs in *Northern ireland only* require moped licensing.

This isn't even because of road safety but the devolved govt after the peace process stalled (again) due to other political disputes so there isn't a sitting Assembly that can change the traffic law (even though they want to!)

Pedelecs are an entirely different ordeal here. The engine is only allowed to support the pedalling, and only up to 25kph. Those don't need any registration or insurance. There are also things called S-Pedelec, which can go up to 45 (20 without pedalling), but they're essentially scooters, so no bike lanes either. The only difference is that you don't require a full helmet on those. A (45kph certified) bike helmet suffices.

@vfrmedia@bhtooefr Yeah, we have these weird, really small insurance plates for everything up to the scooter class. It's not a real German license plate, not centrally registered, it's just a proof of insurance. Need to change them every year though. They're colour coded, so it's visible when the insurance ran out.

@vfrmedia@bhtooefr They're rather uncommon here as well. I keep getting questions about it. But it's insanely cheap (I think I spent about 1.50€ on electricity for it over the last two weeks), and I don't have all the hassle of driving an unlicensed vehicle. I was actually about to buy one of those kick scooters, but decided I wouldn't want to carry the risk all the time. Got it dirt cheap as it was broken, repaired it, replaced the batteries, and now I'm insanely happy about it.

@halfur@vfrmedia TBH I actually wonder how bad a conversion of the Helix would be, especially with a rear hub motor. Battery could drop down in the seat area, and then put something where the gas tank went?

@bhtooefr@vfrmedia And I meant to write "Does it not have a seat." Anything with a motor needs a seat. There's a special exception for Segways though. They are classed as Moped / 25kph.

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