Friday, January 18, 2013

Note: The following post accompanies Takuan Seiyo’s latest piece. Both are being kept “sticky” until tonight. Scroll down for other posts that have appeared since Wednesday.

Certain posts at Gates of Vienna, among them those by Takuan Seiyo, tend to attract the attention and comments of people who are preoccupied with the Jews. They frequently refer to “Holohoax” in World War Two, often supplementing their scornful references with obscenities or derogatory epithets.

I generally delete such comments without publishing them. One of them came in this morning, the second or third such screed submitted on Takuan Seiyo’s latest post. Before I deleted it, I sent it to Takuan, just to show him what was coming in. He suggested that I go ahead and post it, followed by his response.

So here’s the comment by “Anonymous” [typos in the original]:

Some interesting points, a lot of waffle and some errors. Your stated view that the WW2 ‘Holocaust’ resulted in the old 6 million dead Jews is well past its sell-by date. Top class, modern historians now regard that figure as grotesquely disproportionate. The Red Cross AND the German Government counted less than 150,000 for ALL deaths in ALL camps other than those behind Russian lines. It’s now commonly called the HOLOHOAX. It is one of the most successful internationsal businesses of all time.

A response from Takuan Seiyo:

You have the temerity to post this kind of Nazi apologist garbage in a comments thread of an article by a writer whose gentile grandparents had been murdered in a concentration camp and whose gentile mother spent two years in a labor-extermination camp, was a state witness in the post-war trial of its commandant, and relayed her wartime experiences to this writer directly. Moreover, a writer who was born and grew up one hour by car from Auschwitz and three kilometers from the plant where the firm Hoch und Tiefbau AG had built the crematoria for that camp. In which, alone, 2.5 million people were murdered, 1 million of them Jews. And that’s according to the testimony its commandant Rudolf Hoess, based on data from SS-Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann.

Moreover, you desecrate the memory of Witold Pilecki plus other Polish officer escapees from Auschwitz who produced written reports, e.g. Jerzy Tabeau and Kazimierz Piechowski — all of them of impeccable “white” credentials way beyond what you and other White Nat lunatics may ever aspire to. I am omitting here reports by Jewish escapees, for example the Vrba-Wetzler report, as well as the fate of the Jewish part of my family during the war, so as to skirt the whole specious Joooos-tainted-it aspect of your comment.

It’s true that legitimate modern-day attempts to calculate the number of the Holocausts’ victims produce a range of numbers. The lowest for Auschwitz, for instance (by the Polish historian Franciszek Piper), cites 1.1 million victims, in contrast to the 2.5 million estimate — interesting, however, that even in that much-reduced number the Jewish victims component remains the same 1 million as in the bigger total-victim figures. The highest figure cited for Auschwitz is 4 million.

The lowest legitimate estimate of victims of the Jewish Holocaust cites 5.1 million instead of the accepted meme “6 million”. There is room for different methodologies and re-evaluations; there are difficulties, including the fact that much of the physical plant was erased by the Germans. For instance, the Belzec Extermination Camp, where 600,000 Jews were murdered plus some 2,000 Poles in punishment for sheltering or aiding Jews, was entirely plowed under by its German operators before they fled the advancing Soviet Army.

By the way — Belzec too had many direct witnesses from non-Jewish sources, including the famous Jan Karski who snuck in and out, and this writer’s mother who saw freight trains packed with people sardine-style, some of them acquaintances and one a family member, leaving for Belzec, and those “passengers” never returning, with the Polish train conductors telling Polish and Ukrainians bystanders at the station that what they had seen just from the gates of Belzec was Hell on Earth.

Also by the way — here too there are legitimate differences of interpretation, assessment of evidence etc. The lowest valid estimate of Belzec victims is not 600,000 but 500,000.

To erase by a stroke of the pen the best-documented event in history in order to produce the 150,000 number you cite is an act of supreme evil. Please do Gates of Vienna readers a favor and post elsewhere.

I will deal in a later chapter with the issue of White Nats’ desperate massaging of Holocaust history as an attempt to wrest Western history from what, to them, should have been the losers, in order to place the skein of narrative back in the hands of what ought to have been the winners, that is, “white people.” They don’t quite get that WW2 is a story of the ultimate triumph of Western Civilization and of Whites, and that there is no need at all to lie or fall prey to wishful delusions. The losers who wrested the skein of history are not “the Jews” or “the coloreds” but white Marxists-Socialist professors in the 1960s. What they lost is their faith in the infallibility of Marxist dialectics, in view of how prosperous and content the Western proletariat had become.

That quite a few key figures among them were Jews is another matter — but that has nothing to do with historical facts of the Holocaust which, by then, had been firmly documented, catalogued and established for what all but a few Nazis in hiding thought would be all time.

45
comments:

Anonymous
said...

Trkuan, are you saying that you are a World class historian on WW2 ? I would rather put my faith in David Irving, THE most rated historian on WW2, and with NO vested interests. Anyway what is your problem whetherit was 6 million or only 6 Jews that perished in German camps ? We all know that these camps existed, it's just a question of how many people died in them . That is a SCIENTIFIC factual question. It has not been agreed. Most people seem to think the six mil figure is an over-exaggeration by a factor of 10. Do you have some problem if a portion of humanity believe this ?If so, the problem is with you, I am totally comfortable with ANY figure, as long as it is correct or thereabouts.

Takuan you seem to be red meat for these single-minded, dead-horse beaters. No matter what, they show up repeatedly with their shopworn paranoia, having brushed it off and applied new patches over the more threadbare of their 'theories'.

Was it Churchill who said, A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject?

What does one call the state of mind two full stops beyond the station marked "Tedium"? That's the place these folks leave us after they're finished. One can beg them to give it a rest but they can't. As the book of Proverbs so aptly put it, the folly of these folks is akin to the behavior of dogs, returning to their own vomit.

And return they do, ad nauseam, ad aeternitatem. Makes you wonder if these fellows (I'll take a guess and say they're probably mostly fellows, though it's not an exclusive club) will be barfing up these same tired tropes generations from now...just another Jew-Hate menu from a millenia of them served down the generations...

Why the Jews? I've asked myself that question so many times. Why hate a tiny group that has created so much beauty and quested so diligently after the truth?

Have the haters so little self-love that they are reduced to hatred of Other as their locus of meaning? If so, they are fueled by an ineradicable sense of shame and even if they managed to make the world Judenrein, it would not be enough. They would have to go on to erase any works of Jews - music, science, art, philosophy, economics, ritual, literature, etc.

Histories of famous Jewish villains would have to be heaved onto the fire too...

...what a large waste of dedication and intelligence it is to devote energy to the eradication of one single group. I will never understand the depths of such evil...both mundane and monstrous in its mainfestations.

I suppose they'd have to go after the blacks after that. And then maybe the Roma? By the time these haters got to the Celts I'd be long gone...but my descendants would have the same problem with staying awake during these humorless diatribes. For us, that is the most unforgivable sin of all: they have no joy, no wit, no elan. In a word, they're boring.

While 6 million is the number given for the Jews murdered, the figure is higher for many died in the Ghettos, and by the Death Squads.

For the record 11 million people were murdered by the Nazis. Along side of Jews there were Gypsies, Political Dissidents, Homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christians and any person they didn't like.

Please sign the e-petition that has been created on the UK Government website calling for:

"the Government to set up a public inquiry into the Holocaust. All relevant documentary, physical, and eye witness evidence, held by, or known to the government, should be disclosed and made available to the public inquiry.Any private entity or foreign government involvement, in the above subject known by HM government should be made available for scrutiny and possible disclosure to the public."

Just found this at the British Resistance site. They have turned from an anti muslim,anti EU, nationalist site to a full scale Hitler apoligist Jew hating site. They still despise islam. One reason, I suspect, is the role played by prominent Jews in promoting 3rd world immigration and multiculturism in the west. It is rather disturbing,Paris Claims

Here I was reading in Norwegian, British and even Polish media about Gates of Vienna being a "racist" or "far-right" blog. Then this happens.

Yes, the racists and far-right (no quotation marks needed this time) make themselves known on this blog - as those opposing it, and especially one of its writers who happens to be partly Jewish. Something worth remembering for the future...

@Takuan Seiyo - keep up the good work! The fact that your writings elicit such "memorable" responses from the loonies serves as proof positive of their value.

I find it all very disturbing. I have no doubt that this all happened. I have no doubt that this was a monstrously evil act that should never happen again, but I believe that the way to stop it happening again is to ask why this happened. What drove them to do this, or at least go along with it. To just dismiss the German people (at the time ) or even the NAZI's as inherently and uniquely evil without trying to UNDERSTAND (not sympathise or agree ) is to invite the same thing again, and those of us that genuinely fear for the future, desperately want to stop this happening again should be listened to, not shouted down. We are the cool heads, the sensible people, not extremists by any means, but we fear that there is a well of resentment and hatred that is growing, unseen and unheard, which will one day burst without warning, and it won't be us, rational, thoughtful, TRUTHFUL people who read and comment on these blogs, we are desperately trying to stop this happening. It will be those who see themselves as dispossessed, oppressed (yes there are millions who go along with all this even advocate and promote it, who harbour a seething resentment, and will flip like a coin), and once they feel that they have nothing to lose, then what is likely to follow will be truly horrific.

It's true, many influential Jews do promote multiculturalism in the West (Takuan has taken care to point this out) but so do many influential Europeans. Who is to blame for it - Jews or Europeans, or elite Jews and elite Europeans?

And isn't multiculturalism also an issue in Israel which itself is suffering the consequences of one worldism?

It seems to me that the suicidal tendency is as much a part of the Jewish way of being as it is of the European - both carry the liberal virus.

As for the anonymous Nazi-apologist concerned, consider that it was largely thanks to the efforts of the Führer across Europe that millions of workers from "outside" were needed to help rebuild it. Workers who may also have not been needed, had they not been killed in a war started by Hitler.

Besides this direct effect on migration, such was the evil of the Nazis' crimes that playing the "Nazi" or "race" card has been used by left-wing "anti-Nazis" ever since to shut down any debate. How bad would opposition to immigration have been seen, if not for Hitler? Anything like what it is today??

So ironically, it was Hitler's will to make Europe ethnically "pure" that led to the current situation, with millions of Muslims, no-go zones, Sharia patrols and the like - coming in place of soldiers laying down their lives for their country, as well as the millions of Jews, many of whom were exceedingly talented and of immeasurable value to their countries.

I am of course assuming that "anonymous" is against the "cultural enrichment" taking place now - and not supporting the Muslims in their objectives, as is the case with many neo-Nazis.

@Anon 4:14I have a problem dealing with large public lies, and I have a problem dealing with people of either low IQ or any obsessive pathology. Your inability to master the spelling of my handle over various posts in the last year or two (your usual spelling is Tekuan, now Trkuan), your caps in “THE most rated historian” and in other parts of your comment, particularly “SCIENTIFIC”, your claim that David Irving is the most rated historian of WW2, that he has no vested interests (which is probably true, but what about the psychosis?) – all attest that you belong either in the one group I am allergic to or the other, or both. Usually, Holocaust denialists belong to both, and they cling to the thin layer of high-IQ psychopaths, often with PhDs, who generate the theories they cling to. The twisted alphas go a long way back, i.e. Revilo Oliver, William Pierce etc. – and I am talking only post-Hitler here.

I have no problem with your belief in Irving’s theory, or MacDonald’s theory or even Goebels’s theory. But if you comment on any issue related to Joos in this forum, I can’t allow my friends at GoV to leave such dangerous nonsense just lying there, I have to answer. That wastes my time and delays my completion of “Bee and Lamb.” Please take those comments elsewhere; there are many forums suitable for that.

Now I’ll tell you why I consider such comments “dangerous.” Jews dominate the industry in which I have made my living, and are one of the key powers in all the most important functional areas of American society, i.e. the law, media and entertainment, political influence, higher education and finance. At least in the Anglo countries, they are perfectly capable of defending their own interests; they don’t need my help.

But a great historical lie, such as Holocaust denial, is a denial of Reality. A detailed, persistent denial of Reality is what I call Ultimate Blasphemy. A greater and smarter man than I, Eric Voegelin, called it Demonic Mendacity. Such humongous lies, if widely subscribed, bring an inevitable disaster on the society that clings to them.

It so happens that among the greatest such blasphemers were leftists Jews, starting with Marx and not ending with Derrida, the Frankfurt School, Zinn etc. The whole movement in which they have played an important part is the very topic of the article you posted your comment in. And that movement is now writing the epitaph of our civilization.

The Holocaust denial lies you subscribe to are so egregious in light of the countervailing evidence that platforms where they are posted automatically lose any credibility with rational people with respect to discussing anything true related to the dysfunctional direction in which a large portion of the Jewish community has tilted their host society. And that’s a vital topic, for the sake of all, including the Jews.

The only way to oppose the sea of demonic mendacity enveloping us from the left is to stay close to the truth, in whichever direction it leads. Luckily, in all areas but the persistent plague of blanket Joo demonization by the “New” Right, truth is on our side. Don’t spoil that advantage.

BTW, please refrain from commenting here about Israel and Zionism too. Same problem as with your take on the Holocaust.

In addition to much beauty, particularly the spiritual beauty of Christianity and then various literary,film and musical creations in the 19th-20th centuries, a small segment of the Jewish people also created much intellectual fog and much suffering. Not enough of this is being discussed, except by Jew-haters whose true points are totally buried under the heaps of lies they propagate -- lies of commission and lies of omission (i.e. the beauty, the contributions to science).

But the point still remains, Why the Jews? This work has an underlying spine of looking at Christianity from the year zero to 2013. The last chapter will present the historical-theological answer to "Why the Jews," and will suggest a firm way to start climbing out of the (unrelated to Jews) bog by adopting a rational but positive and active view of Christianity, such as would be familiar to Messrs Washington, Madison and Franklin.Takuan Seiyo

As someone with a somewhat similar background to Takuan, I can sympathise. There is an incredible quote I heard a while back from the comic writer Alan Moore, which was something along the lines of "The only thing worse than believing someone controls the world is knowing that no one does." People see the bad in the world, work out who has caused it, and think to themselves that once those bad guys are gone there will be no bad. It is a remarkable level of conspiracy to believe that people who wanted to destroy the jews are innocent of an attempt to destroy the jews because the jews are so bad that they tricked us into thinking that someone wanted to destroy them so that they could do even more bad.

What I have come to realise is that there is, is not conspiracies of jews, or bilderberg groups or reptoid aliens or freemasons, but memes. Ideas and intellectual trends that spread like wildfire across the globe. The only problem the west faces is ourselves, and the false beliefs that we use to justify the current system. It is childish of us to point the finger. Only though self relection can we get through this.

I follow on from the previous comment and try to explain why some people are getting so hot under the collar about the Jewish influence in public life in Great Britain. This is not an attack or a denunciation of all Jews, but an honest look at why people see there being an undue concentration of power and influence in (mainly affluent, middle class East European) JewsTake the roots of our problems - Marx and Engels, who, I believe fall into that bracket. Then follow it up with the people who bear almost sole responsibility for all the mischief in our society today - the Frankfurt school - ditto- and the middle class and affluent is just as important, socialism is NOT a working class movement. They regard the lower classes with contempt and pity in equal measures, but worst of all they regard them as lab rats, to be sacrificed and experimented on by their social and intellectual betters to achieve some future utopian dream.Now carry on to the malign influence on our universities, and you find the east European Jewish influence again, with 'thinkers' like Eric Hobsbawne (UK) and Noahm Chomsky (US) at the top of the pyramid, feted, in 'intelectual' circles, almost as secular gods.Then move on to the other corrosive, destructive influences on our society: Hollywood, the second biggest anti western propaganda machine, and the music industry, just aboute totally run by (the descendents of) east european Jews.Now move onto the most malign, destructive, dishonest, lying, corrupting, undermining influence on western society :television, I can, only speak for Great Britain, but the industry is dominated by the Grades (Winogradsky) Dyke (YES), who thought the bbc was hideously white, yentob, Cotton, to name but a few.Politics: We can't elect a Prime Minister in this country who doesn't have a Jewish background. Cameron's is admittedly a bit distant, but Blair, the Millibands. Howard, Clegg, Hune, just about any possible candidate for British Prime Minister has been first or second generation East European Jewish.Add in all the other EUJ descended politicians: Letwin, Osbourn, Straw, Milburn, McShane, Dunoody, Eagle, mandleson, to name only a few, Then add in The top businessmen like Sugar, Green, Banking(Incidentally who's this newly appointed 'American' govenor of the Bank of England. What's his background ?)Added all together East European Jews do seem to have power and influence, in G.B. at least, out of all proportion to their numbers in the general population,, and they do seem to be pulling the strings of the organisations that are having the most detrimental effect on western countrys - and I HAVE ONLY JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE. If I am wrong please don't censor me, tell me why I am wrong. I am not advocating any action or discrimination towards anyone, but I am trying to explain why some people feel the way that they do. That is the point that I am trying to make If these people's fears aren't allowed to be expressed, and discussed, refuted in a reasonable, rational manner - not just shouted down, then their disquiet just becomes festering resentment and hatred

"It is a remarkable level of conspiracy to believe that people who wanted to destroy the jews are innocent of an attempt to destroy the jews because the jews are so bad that they tricked us into thinking that someone wanted to destroy them so that they could do even more bad."

Not one speech or line written by Hitler or the Third Reich ever mentioned killing all the jews.

Don't get me wrong I'm sure it happened just as described. The number of jews before the war,circa 16 million, after the war circa 14 million and the number of survivors in 2009 who were claiming reparations... 5,360,710 (German Gvt figures),

So while I'm sure the history must be correct I'm confused by the maths.

Are you sure of it all? Blair, McShane Jewish? Cameron “distant”? I would like to know more. On the other hand, I wouldn’t begrudge you if you repeated the surname Milliband alone to the bottom of the page.

On the contra side, Marx was Jewish, but Engels was not. You couldn’t accuse Disraeli of harming British interests, but the four most destructive socialist British PMs I know are Atlee, Wilson, Blair and Brown. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt on Blair, the other three are as British as they come, and Atlee and Brown came from clerical families too. The Oxbridge commies, e.g. Kim Philby, came from good English families. The dhimmi-in-chief with his archbishop’s mitre is presumably not Jewish either.

Still, you present a valid point, and one that should be debated by honest, knowledgeable parties. I’d love to hear the Hitchens brothers or the Mitford sisters discuss this.Takuan Seiyo

Wrong. The self-castigation of the West MUST stop. The West faces many serious problems generated both here and in other parts of the world by people 1) without Western values, mores, cultures, or religions, and 2) without an understanding or appreciation of Western values, mores, cultures, or religions, and 3) with the stated goal to change Western values, mores, cultures, or religions because they believe that their non-Western way of life is better than the Western way of life.

Cameron, I've seen from several sources, including msm that something like his great grandfather was Jewish. McShane, his ancesty got mentioned in his recent court case. Wilson though presumably English, was in the pocket of people like lord Kagan who was an EUJ, it's interesting to note that Camerons likely successor is of east european descent (Boris Johnson). What I'm saying Is, there's something going off, annd somebody is definitely pulling the strings. Now I've explained why people think, not all Jews, but an east european cabal, who are Jewish seem to fit the bill IF THE INFORMATION IS CORRECT, so, the only way to counter this is to disprove it.What I am saying is that shouting people down and calling them names is only seen by them as a tactic to cover up the truth, which we all know that the left do all of the time. For myself, I have no doubt that the holocaust happened, and arguing about the numbers is immaterial, murdering people on an ibustrial scale is an act of gross evil, and can't be excused. But the fact remains that theremust have been a reason why people behaved like that, and that is what we need to understand, and when av group of people feel like they do we should be engaging them in rational argument, not just shouting them down, and effectively paintijng them into a corner. That to me is what happened with the Norwegian mass shooting, and I really think that the only way to avoid more of that is to address peoples concerns in a calm and rational manner.Mr Seiyo, nobody is a NAZI you are doing what you have just spent months, and hundreds of column inches accusing the left of doing,- name calling and refusing to debate something that is of concern to people, putting questions beyond asking that deserve an answer.

Anonymous, the Holocaust denier, and any other scheisskopf of similar persuasion would do well to GoogleBad Arolsen. Here, in Bad Arolsen, are stored 50 million pages in 16 miles of storage. These comprise the records of the 17.5 million victims of the Nazis. The Nazis were meticulous record keepers who recorded all liquidations to prove to their superiors and to Hitler that orders had been carried out.These are the records not only of Jews who were exterminated but ofPoles, Roma, homosexuals, political prisoners and others. There are many websites describing the archives of Bad Arolsen. There is even a YouTube site with photographs of the archives. Yet,no Holocaust denier is likely to change his mind...such is the nature of those mired in the psychotic delusion of Holocaust denial...psychotic delusions beingimpermeable to rational persuasion.

I would like to add, that I believe this drive to want to dismiss or minimalize the Jewish Holocaust (not to diminish the many others that were mass murdered by the Nazis) is that it is a huge source of Western guilt and shame, not just for Germans but across all of Europe and the Anglo Nations around the globe, Western Civilization ie European Christendom. Thus to deny or minimize it, is to remove the reason/cause of that guilt and the resulting loss of cultural confidence, which is one of the core problems that is responsible for the dire situation that we face. Im reminded of what a Jewish acquaitence that Ive had extensive political discussion with on the Charlie Rose board said with regards to the Germans..."Germans will never forgive the Jews for the Holocaust."

Certainly Jews (and other minority groups in European Christendom) have used this guilt and loss of cultural confidence to push their interests post WW2. This combined with post colonial guilt and racism guilt are the core drivers of this loss of cultural confidence.

Multiculturalism, cultural relativism, the culture and value neutral state, radical egalitarianism, diversity promotionmm the inability or lack of will to enforce our territorial sovereignty with regards to illegal invading immigrant are all connected to this loss of cultural confidence.

The mentally easy way out is to deny the Holocaust.

Better just to love one's imperfect self, as worthy of self preservation...but without malice towards others, but also not letting others run roughshod over you and yours.

The Left has also taken great advantage of this loss of cultural confidence and has massively promoted it.

It's not that we are doing ourselves in, which we certainly are, but others are taking advantage of the situation. Neither is a particularly catastropic problem by itself. Both together are. Along the lines of leaving your house unlocked and your possessions unsecured, which isnt a problem unto itself, without someone with the desire and will to enter your house and steal your stuff.

As far as I am concerned, British politics is dominated by people of Scottish decent, but somehow this does not cause any comment.

My extended family in Lithuania and Russia just were not there after the war, we do not know what happened.

I think that the 'socialism' in national socialism should not be ignored, and that the 'far right' epiphet is an academic construct which attempts to deflect public awareness away from the congruent outworkings of nazism and communism and to silence those who have thought this through for themselves, rather than swallowing the rather poisonous left/right/centre line usually propounded.

The real political demarcation is between Freedom and Tyranny, in 19th century UK, freedom made lots of gains, in latter twentieth century UK, tyranny has made lots of gains. Its as simple as that.

The pivot point was the demise of the (real) Liberal Party and its replacement by the Labour party.

Most of the 'influential' Jews tend to be secular Jews, and hearin may lie the heart of the problem; the demise of the West has seen a parallel demise of Western Judeo-Christian Ethics.

While 4 million men, women and children were murdered at Auschwitz,...

Even at the Auschwitz site they do not claim this any longer (and have not for quite a while) -- go there and see for yourself. When I last visited in 2006, my guide also admitted that, in the future, the official figure for Auschwitz was likely to be reduced further, perhaps to 700k.

Wanting to get accurate information about the extent of the 'Holocaust' is not "Nazi apologist garbage". It is a simple matter of historical fact and accuracy.

Last remark: For such a notorious "death camp", there were some curious goings on there. For example, many fotos of the liberation of Auschwitz show there were lots of women and children present. Also Ann Frank was actually initially sent to Auschwitz, but was not killed there, and did not die here, but in fact the Germans went to the trouble of later evacuating her to Bergen-Belsen, where she later died, presumably of typhus.

There is no doubt about the extent of German cruelty and barbarism. But there is now reasonable doubt about the extent of the 'Holocaust' -- the/any deliberate effort to 'exterminate' Jews.

Rob, if these guys don't want to know the truth, that's their problem.It appears Takuan and others hold the same position as all recent German governments, that the issue is so contentious it must be regarded as a criminal offense even to DISCUSS it. That is extremely unhealthy. Notice how all the [ blind] Holocaust believers immediately go to the most extreme language to describe even the slightest vibration of non-conformity from any quarter. They are NOT scientific about it, but purely emotional. Not good enough.

"Politics: We can't elect a Prime Minister in this country who doesn't have a Jewish background. Cameron's is admittedly a bit distant, but Blair, the Millibands. Howard, Clegg, Hune, just about any possible candidate for British Prime Minister has been first or second generation East European Jewish.Add in all the other EUJ descended politicians: Letwin, Osbourn, Straw, Milburn, McShane, Dunwoody, Eagle, mandleson, to name only a few,..."

Id like to see evidence viz: Blair, Clegg, Osbourn, Milburn...

(Takuan - McShane is descended from Polish Jews - or so I remember reading somewhere in the MSM. I've also read (MSM again) that Cameron has Jewish antecedents - which is confirmed in his appearance, he's got a hint of Michael Howard about him).

Oh, I almost forgot, my great grandfather was Jewish, he 'married out', fought in WW1 (my mother has a photo of him in his army uniform), all his descendents are Christians and see themselves as exclusively English and I guess most are unaware of his background.

No doubt the Nazis murdered many – but the given narrative has many, many issues.

A couple from items cited here as fact:

Hoess was severely tortured – and his family threatened - to gain ‘confessions’ and the figure he confessed to (2,500,000) and was actually convicted on (4,300,000) have both been proven to be entirely false, the number who died at Auschwitz has now been downgraded by the Auschwitz museum itself to 1,500,000.

In fact pretty much all of the German prisoners were tortured for their ‘confessions.’

American Judge Edward L. van Roden, one of the three members of the Simpson Army Commission which was subsequently appointed to investigate the methods of justice at the Dachau trials, revealed the methods by which these admissions were secured in the Washington Daily News, January 9th, 1949. His account also appeared in the British newspaper, the Sunday Pictorial, January 23rd, 1949:

“Posturing as priests to hear confessions and give absolution; torture with burning matches driven under the prisoners finger-nails; knocking out of teeth and breaking jaws; solitary confinement and near starvation rations." Van Roden explained: "The statements which were admitted as evidence were obtained from men who had first been kept in solitary confinement for three, four and five months . . . The investigators would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in the face with brass knuckles, kick him and beat him with rubber hoses . . . All but two of the Germans, in the 139 cases we investigated, had been kicked in the testicles beyond repair. This was standard operating procedure with our American investigators."

Quote:We all know that these camps existed, it's just a question of how many people died in them . That is a SCIENTIFIC factual question. It has not been agreed. end

It's not a scientific question.It's a historical question!Wow.As argument it sounds so . . . so . . . Muslim, so Oriental, and so irrational.Why don't you find Mohammed's cave of Chaos and get out of the West?

These spiritually addled individuals who try to argue that the Nazis weren't all that bad, not really - I suggest you all convert to Islam, get those green bandanas on, & go and live in the Middle East where you can indulge your irrational fantasies and hatred, & live among your own kind.

Maybe if you ever find the courage to live out your beliefs & actually fire off a Qassam, the IDF will do the world a favour and end you. How cool would that be?

As the Israeli journalist Caroline Glick has pointed out, the war didn't happen because of militarism or nationalism per se - after all if Poland had SAM missile batteries along her borders, a squadron of F-16s and a couple battalion of Merkava tanks, that would not have caused the war, it would have prevented it. Glick is correct to say that the war happened, and everything that went with it, because Germany embraced evil, and might I add, other Western politicians stood around and did nothing (See Churchill's Gathering Storm, p. 80).

Max Hasting wrote in his recent book on WWII that many people could only describe what happened by saying it was "hell on earth".

Quite so.

So all you jumped up wannabe-intellectuals with your fantastic conspiracy theories and your attempts to pretend that the Nazis weren't that bad, not really - you sound just like them.

Apparently there are still people alive today who are "working towards the Fuehrer" ...

As for complaining about SS guards getting kicked in the balls - what are we supposed to feel sorry for the poor Nazis? Oh dearie me, those poor SS guards? As we say up here: PLENTY FOR THEM!

Let me cast some light on the motives of right-wing antisemites, here in France (of which Holocaust-deniers are but a subset). Their grudge is pretty simple :

1. For decades, Jewish organisations and Jewish members of the power elite have relentlessly, and successfully, campaigned for mass immigration, mainly from Muslim countries.

2. They were instrumental in making any opposition to immigration a punishable offence, by way of laws that originally punished anti-semitism, then "racism", then any form of "hate speech" or "discrimination", then imposed the presence of immigrant populations within the natives, through the French equivalent of American Section 8. In all towns, apart from the smallest, social housing must now represent 25 % of all accomodation, and social housing equates with immigrant ghettoes.

3. Jewish organisations and Jewish members of the power elite have supported this deliberate policy through an unabashed and nauseating exploitation of the Holocaust, which is hammered through people's minds day in, day out, in schools, in the media, at university, in publishing, in movies, in political discourse, everywhere. Step in a Paris bookshop some day, go to the history section, and you'd swear the Nazis have just been defeated, and American tanks are still rumbling in the street behind you.

4. The power elite maintains an obvious double standard about crime targeting Jews and crime targeting the non-jewish native population. Any assault with anti-semitic overtones warrants an indignant government reaction, whereas the much larger wave crime hitting the non-minority French is just business as usual.

As a result, obviously you'll have a number of people hopping on the bandwagon of Holocaust-denial. Some of them really believe their own nonsense, and a significant number do it only to get even, just because it's the ultimate taboo, and they are fed up by state propaganda.

I'd say that influential Jews, Jews who have access to the media, politicians, "intellectuals", "artists", activists and "community organisers" have a lot of soul-searching to do on the subject. Most, if not all, of Holocaust-denial, and a significant part of anti-semitism as well, springs directly from their choices, from their political strategy, from their being too clever by half, and trying to outfox the general population in order to further their own interests.

Their strategy is spectacularly backfiring, for the Muslim immigrants, who they thought would deflect from Jews any possible racial hostility and help them enforce the "anti-racist" religion, are the very ones blowing the flames of anti-semitism at them.

The least we can ask from Jews is that they publicly admit their error – and error is a wild understatement here.

This is coming from someone that has recently stopped commenting on one of his favorite French conservative blogs out of disgust, because it's now swamped by Holocaust-deniers, anti-semites, 9-11 truthers, and even Moon-landing deniers.

I agree that quibbling about numbers doesn't do much but prove that there's a surreal religious aura invested in six million. Which is why that number is repeated so blubberingly and so often, and was even prior to WWII, and why there is such pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth when challenged. In it lies the blind faith of true believers, reinforced by rote repetition and lots of insults for infidels.

We could instead cut through the nonsense and simply ask, "Who's to blame?" But this is exactly what the pages of personal anecdotes and odd moral outrage about mental disease serves to obviate.

As with the six million number, the one and only acceptable answer the true believers believe everyone must believe is, "Hilter". Or sometimes, "the nazis". Oh, and it's ok to be a bit looser and say, "the Germans". Oh, yeah, and today it's perfectly common to find blame aimed broadly at, "the Europeans".

This bias is especially glaring on a site like this, which presents itself, somewhat coyly, as supporting a defense of "Christian Europe". The frequent postings and comments here regurgitating a one-sided narrative about the victimization of jews at the hands of European oppressors undermines the pro-European pose. Likewise the psychoanalytic pathologization of any dissent on this point and the butt-hurt bolshevist cries for censorship which usually prevail. You know, just like how the discussion of Europeans vis-a-vis jews goes in most places outside this site.

I'd like to see the pro-European pretense here end. I've given up hope it will ever become real. Maybe remove the wholesome European imagery and put a concentration camp right in the masthead. "Never forgive! Never forget!" or "Fight anti-semitism!" would make a dandy slogan. Publish everything in hebrew or yiddish. This would more honestly reflect the sympathies of the site. Then probably a lot less pro-Europeans would mistakenly show up and so disturb Seiyo and his bolshevist psychoanalyst friends. Everyone would be happier, right?

Dear Mr Seiyo, People are not NAZI's for wondering what the truth is, and for wondering what is going on and who's behind it.Two television interviews in the last couple of decades have absolutely filled me with dread. The first during the break up of Yugoslavia, a man wandering about in a daze was interviewed by a news crew. All he could say was. 'I can't believe it, I can't understand it, HE WAS MY BEST FRIEND, and now he's trying to kill me WHY ?. Forty years he's lived next door to me, he wasn't just my neighbour, he was my best friend, WHY, why is he trying to kill me ?A similar interview took place in Nigeria, A man, in exactly the same state, wandering about saying he couldn't understand why his best friend was trying to kill him. I am not, I promise you, making up these interviews, or exaggerating them, and it chills me to the bone, because the people who harbour a seething resentment don't show any outward sign of it, and they just flip INSTANTLY , en masse, no warning, no outward signs, no great build up, then a small incident and all hell is let loose. History is littered with instances of mass genocide, and it's not usually instigated by people like us, we have an outlet, we actually try to talk about what's worrying us, NO the people who go mad and start killing each other are usually mr average, the man next door, and as a historian you should know thatcontinued.....

“As for complaining about SS guards getting kicked in the balls - what are we supposed to feel sorry for the poor Nazis?”

First off: I didn’t complain - I posted some facts. And they are facts. And many weren’t SS at all. Always best to look into things you have strong opinions on.

Secondly: Torture is either wrong or it isn’t. Every advocate has their rationale. You appear to be an advocate of torture. And you also seem to think you occupy some moral high ground?

Thirdly: There is a solid premise as to why ‘confessions’ and ‘evidence’ obtained by this method are (ostensibly) inadmissible: They are completely unreliable, for quite obvious reasons.

I will only respond to your last paragraph, as that is all that could be honestly levelled at me in your post.

I haven’t downplayed or excused anything – I just posted a few facts that clearly demonstrate that history is never black and white, open and shut.

As the example I gave demonstrates:

Hoess was tortured and his family threatened; he finally settled on a confession of 2,500,000 deaths at Auschwitz; he was subsequently convicted for 4,300,000 deaths at Auschwitz; it is now accepted by the Auschwitz museum itself that an upper figure of 1,500,000 deaths occurred at Auschwitz.

Given all this, I would say certain conclusions should be fairly obvious to any honest, objective person: Hoess’s confession was erroneous, as was his conviction.

And therefore any weight placed upon on either as a matter of historical record is also just as erroneous.

Grave injustices have frequently occurred by the imprisoning of people who have merely spoken the truth on matters such as the gas chamber on show at Auschwitz not being in original state, as previously claimed, but in fact ‘reconstructed’ years after the war (now accepted by the Auschwitz museum.)

Medieval ‘witchfinder general’ tactics will not do any good in the end, it will only inflame – only open honest debate will establish facts as near to the truth as we are likely to get.

And only open host debate will dispel any notions of a powerful, protected group demanding special treatment to cover up a wartime propaganda concoction that has - and continues to - benefit that group enormously.

And make no mistake on how widespread that view is, and the danger it presents.

continued..................... As for the list of people who run public life in GB, who are of East European Jewish descent, this blog brought the subject up, a blog incidentally that I have the highest regard for, including its author, who I believe is Jewish. Now you can't bring up a subject, and then start carping because you don't like what peoples opinion is, commenter's were asking why people think there is a Jewish conspiracy, and I gave an honest answer, I don't have the means to research these things other than the internet.If what I'm saying is wrong refute it, don't tell me to shut up and go away, don't call me names, I am intelligent, rational, logical person, a reasonable person, all that you need to do is say that I am wrong and point out why, and if you do some of the hotheads might realise that they have it wrong. That is what open debate is all about, it is not just for the benefit of the two people involved in the debate. You do not win an argument by shouting the other person down, ruling them out of order or refusing to debate. with them.I say again, most of the people reading and commenting on this blog ARE NOT NAZI'S, in fact quite the opposite, we are terrified of it happening again, and we realise that one of the greatest causes of fear and resentment is people feeling that they have no voice, no one addresses their worries, nobody listens, nobody cares.Finally the holocaust. As I have said before, there is no doubt that it happened, or should not be among honest rational people, and any argument with regard to the numbers is immaterial, if they had murdered ten, twenty, a thousand people in this manner the crime would still be as great, and not just the murder, but the cruel treatment and the stripping away of every last vestige of human dignity, which was far worse than the crime of murder itself.Having said that, it is not unique in human history, and I get a bit sick of people using this horrible crime to stifle debate. I get a bit sick of being told that I/we have to shut up because of the supposed complicity of my ancestors in this crime, and for the supposed crimes of my ancestors. WE ARE HERE AND IT IS NOW. I am NOT responsible for things that happened in the past, and ethnic suicide will not change a thing that has happened in the past, but the world will be a lot poorer for the passing of this civilisation, for all it's faults.I have read and agree with most of what you have written, you are obviously an intelligent and thoughtful man, but on this you are wrong.You don't change peoples minds by refusing to address their concerns, and if you insult them to boot, you just force them into a bunker mentality.

There are now some real sick people who have crept into this forum, so I am checking out; life is too short.

Anon @ 7:59 & 12:22 wrote in his latter comment that I "have just spent months, and hundreds of column inches accusing the left of doing,- name calling and refusing to debate something that is of concern to people.” Yet I had just commented in a friendly and not-disapproving way on his first comment, and opined that it’s a subject that should be debated – by people who know, in the proper forum.

I comment on the JQ in my own writings, when appropriate, mostly unfavorably to Jews (and Blacks, Muslims, “Hispanics,” Scandinavians, Women, Gays, Academics etc.) because that’s where the facts I know about the current impact of those groups lead me. But when Nazizoids post Joo craziness in the comment sections, I have to react. That reaction is usually positive v. JQ, because, again, that’s where pre-1960s facts I know lead me. And I know far more of the relevant facts than the Nazizoids do (theirs are desperate conjuring), not the least because I have read on the subject in primary sources in Slavic languages, and my mother was a translator of such German primary sources in various related proceeding between Poland and Germany after the war.

The JQ is a topic that deserves its own forum, and GoV is expressly not that forum. Moreover, I am not the proper advocate for the Jewish side – by Jewish law I am not one and by my cultural and religious upbringing and orientation have never been one. Besides, I once wrote that had I spent as much time harvesting data and marshalling arguments for the Jews’ side as Kevin MacDonald has spent against them (decades), perhaps I’d more interested in relative polemics. But I have not, so I am not. The whole issue is not one of my main interests.

Why there are no Jewish spokesmen for the Jewish side who would engage, in the proper forum, in serious argument with MacDonald – and he does deserves serious argument unlike some of the commenters above – I don’t know. But neither this website nor this writer can make up for it.

Quote:These spiritually addled individuals who try to argue that the Nazis weren't all that bad, not really - I suggest you all convert to Islam, get those green bandanas on, & go and live in the Middle East where you can indulge your irrational fantasies and hatred, & live among your own kind.end

Nazis were quite welcome among Arabs post ww2.I'm sure they'll be quite welcome among them again.The Baathists and Arab nationalists were directly influenced by Nazi structures and tyranny.And the Holocaust?It was inspired by the Turkish genocides of Christians in the 1910s and 1920s.Greeks and Armenians?Look carefully at the victims-- they all had something in common-- they were Christian and Turks were among them!

sorry gov your reaction to legitimate questions does seem somewhat irrational to say the least,or are there no such things where this is concerned? you say it so it's a "fact" i suppose now that i've said that i'm probably a "holocaust denier[i'm not"]but one can't help but notice that the figures keep changing,you can bluster all you like but it is also a "fact"

I have only one thing to add. In addressing the question, "Why the Jews?" It seems quite obvious that a a great of of it is simply jealousy. Couple that with the fact that Jews are always a minority (except in Israel)and thus easy prey and easy scapegoats.

Takuan, morally terrorizing people into agreeing with the standard holocaust narrative has obviously worked very well the past fifty years so it's understandable that you resort to such tactics yourself. But what's the Plan B? Obviously the standard narrative is beginning to unravel and this is producing some hysterical reactions on the part of those most deeply invested in promoting it, but the inadvertent effect of such hysteria is to condition people to equate the dismissal of the standard narrative with hatred of Jews and similar all round neo-nazi nastiness. It's a dangerous game.

The fact is doubt or dismissal of the standard narrative need not have anything to do with hatred, not of Jews nor of anyone. Racial hatred is cruel and evil and it's clear that promotion of the standard holocaust narrative was enormously helpful as a teaching tool for tolerance and acceptance of human differences. But by now it has well and truly outgrown that original purpose and transmogrified into a tool of oppression of whites/Europeans. That too is cruel and evil, and it's high time it stopped.

The only way to oppose the sea of demonic mendacity enveloping us from the left is to stay close to the truth, in whichever direction it leads. Luckily, in all areas but the persistent plague of blanket Joo demonization by the “New” Right, truth is on our side. Don’t spoil that advantage.

Takuan, it's astonishing that you would attempt to defend yourself against charges of mendacity with such extreme mendacity. Clearly the very last thing you believe in is following the evidence wherever it may lead. If you did, you'd champion so-called "deniers", for the fact is that so-called "deniers" are today languishing in jail precisely for having done as you advocate: they have followed the evidence where it leads, have asked awkward questions of it, and have had the temerity to provide honest answers to those questions.