Though the question being whether Bottas did not bother to push hard once the TO was issued. What was he to gain? They switched them. All he needed to ensure was to not let himself be passed by Max, and I do not think he was really ever actually threatened there.

He fell 5 seconds behind. He was a distance back that made the switch back completely impractical. I'd even say Hamilton should have been closer for the original switch, but I guess they had so much clean air and Vettel holding things up that it didn't matter.

Things change. I can tell you we have an agreement, but circumstances come up where it no longer makes sense for either of us. I think circumstances came up which made it make no sense for Merc to switch back - Hamilton (whilst not threatening) never really fell away from Kimi, Bottas clearly didn't have the pace to keep up with Hamilton or Kimi, and Verstappen was doing a pretty good job of keeping up with everyone.

Bottas created the scenario where a switchback no longer made sense. If he was intentionally holding something back, it wasn't the smartest move.

Yes, I do hear you. I am only wondering about what that exactly caused Bottas drop those 5 sec behind. Whether he gave his best and simply didn't have that enough pace to keep in touch, or he was also demoraliserad after the switch being made. I feel that he himself did not expect the place was to be given back and hence did not bother. It happened once already, if I am not mistaken.

Incorrect.

Hamilton said over the radio, let me by if I don't pull away I will let him back past (Hamilton had the slower tyre or so shouldn't have been quicker). Mercedes ignored this anyway and ordered Bottas to just get out of the way and not fight Hamilton who was 1 second per lap quicker at this point. Bottas was never told he would get the position back that race - confirmed by Bottas himself after the race.

Well, then not "Incorrect" but "mistaken". Was that Bahrain you are talking about?

Now how unbiased does a poster think he is with such negative comments, this being different from merely taking heed at Hamilton fans themselves, Hamilton showed a bit of class today.

And if you go back to the posts at the end of the race, I gave credit to Hamilton for his action, poker.... as did a big number of those you would consider Hamilton critics. He did a good thing and got recognition for it.

However, even you... well, maybe... had to have been a bit surprised that the swap was made. I freely admit that I did not expect it to happen (of course, I was alone in my suspicions ), and I was impressed that it did, hence my giving him credit for it.

Obviously, that was not enough for some..... so be it.

It still doesn't change the attack you made on his character rather than waiting to see what the outcome might be, you pre-judged him.

I was surprised to see the switch back being made because of how close Verstappen was to Bottas, Hamilton admitted that he took the risk of being passed by Verstappen.

YES, Poker.... I did "pre-judge" Lewis by giving a to a poster who jokingly suggested that Hamilton's radio issue could return prior to his having to give the position back. Oh, Heaven forbid! Where is your outrage at everyone else who questioned that it would happen? I feel so honored to have "earned" your condemnation.

Now, I have admitted my "crime" and actually did give credit to Lewis for his act.... and again, that is not enough... post fact, you have your nose out of joint because I dared to agree with someone who dared to question Hamilton's sense of sportsmanship. I will say that it you may have missed the facts, but Lewis has... on occasion... exhibited less than honorable sportsmanship over the years... which is probably why a GREAT number of fans (and media) were surprised, and applauded, Hamilton voluntarily giving up the position.

There is a good thing for both of us to come out of this race, poker... we have the mid-season break to allow people to move on.

Hamilton said over the radio, let me by if I don't pull away I will let him back past (Hamilton had the slower tyre or so shouldn't have been quicker). Mercedes ignored this anyway and ordered Bottas to just get out of the way and not fight Hamilton who was 1 second per lap quicker at this point. Bottas was never told he would get the position back that race - confirmed by Bottas himself after the race.

My impression from the race was that Hamilton was never significantly faster than Bottas, if at all, prior to their swap. Bottas ran into dirty air and got stuck behind the Ferrari's in the same way that Hamilton did later on. I will need to look at lap data later on, but that's what I got from watching live timing.

I'm sure Bottas wasn't getting in the DRS zone, Hamilton was 0.8 behind Bottas even in the twisty middle sector. Hamilton was clearly faster than Bottas and was in the DRS zone and then Bottas fell behind the front 3.

I'm sure Bottas wasn't getting in the DRS zone, Hamilton was 0.8 behind Bottas even in the twisty middle sector. Hamilton was clearly faster than Bottas and was in the DRS zone and then Bottas fell behind the front 3.

Hamilton was at most slightly faster. He would never have gotten in front of Bottas without team orders. The gap between the two grew afterwards because Bottas had no incentive to push after being ordered to make way. He preserved his engine life to have a better chance on another day.

I'm sure Bottas wasn't getting in the DRS zone, Hamilton was 0.8 behind Bottas even in the twisty middle sector. Hamilton was clearly faster than Bottas and was in the DRS zone and then Bottas fell behind the front 3.

Hamilton was at most slightly faster. He would never have gotten in front of Bottas without team orders. The gap between the two grew afterwards because Bottas had no incentive to push after being ordered to make way. He preserved his engine life to have a better chance on another day.

Bottas was saving his engine and wasn't bothered about the front 3 while risking Verstappen gettng so close that getting 3rd back was being made more difficult. Hamilton was clearly faster and thats it, Bottas is normally slower on one tyre compound during a race.

Hamilton would never have passed Bottas because you simply can't overtake, it's not like some magic suprise a Mercedes can't overtake a Mercedes. You nomally need to be alot quicker to even attempt an overtake.

The team even looked at the data and decided Hamilton was quicker, they wouldn't have let Hamilton pass if they didn't believe he had a better chance of doing anything.

Also Kimi and Hamilton was being held up by Vettel who had his problems. Bottas couldn't keep up with the front 3 and I believe Kimi and Hamilton would have pulled away from Vettel in clear air.

Bottas was saving his engine and wasn't bothered about the front 3 while risking Verstappen gettng so close that getting 3rd back was being made more difficult.

From Mercedes' perspective this was a perfect strategy. They did not want Verstappen to re-enter the fight for podium positions. Bottas had enough pace to hold 4th place.

F1_Ernie wrote:

Hamilton would never have passed Bottas because you simply can't overtake, it's not like some magic suprise a Mercedes can't overtake a Mercedes. You nomally need to be alot quicker to even attempt an overtake.

Right. So without team orders, Bottas was going to keep his spot. If any of the Ferrari's were going to run into problems, Bottas, and not Hamilton, was set to benefit.

F1_Ernie wrote:

The team even looked at the data and decided Hamilton was quicker, they wouldn't have let Hamilton pass if they didn't believe he had a better chance of doing anything.

What difference does it make? They LET him pass. At least we can agree, once and for all, that Mercedes uses team orders to benefit Hamilton. Perhaps they will do the same for Bottas under the right circumstances, but we have yet to see that.

To be fair Hulkenberg came up to him in the media pen, interrupted his interview and very publicly told him he was the most unsportsmanlike driver on the grid. I thought Magnussen's response was fair enough, and the delivery was hilarious.

To be fair Hulkenberg came up to him in the media pen, interrupted his interview and very publicly told him he was the most unsportsmanlike driver on the grid. I thought Magnussen's response was fair enough, and the delivery was hilarious.

To be fair Hulkenberg came up to him in the media pen, interrupted his interview and very publicly told him he was the most unsportsmanlike driver on the grid. I thought Magnussen's response was fair enough, and the delivery was hilarious.

Didn't see this but I have to say it appears NH got what he deserved, trying to play the media game for effect and failing spectacularly it seems. Was this in English? Is it available on one of those video social media channels perhaps?

To be fair Hulkenberg came up to him in the media pen, interrupted his interview and very publicly told him he was the most unsportsmanlike driver on the grid. I thought Magnussen's response was fair enough, and the delivery was hilarious.

Didn't see this but I have to say it appears NH got what he deserved, trying to play the media game for effect and failing spectacularly it seems. Was this in English? Is it available on one of those video social media channels perhaps?

Yeah it was in English, it's all over YouTube & social media, here you go:

Vettel may well have won the Hungarian Grand Prix, thus extending his championship lead heading into the summer break, yet the momentum could well be with Hamilton for the second half of the season.

The tight and twisty nature of the Hungaroring, which in these new generation of cars perhaps makes overtaking more of an issue than normal, does places an emphasis on qualifying performance. The majority of the hard work was therefore done yesterday but that’s not to take anything away from Ferrari, Vettel producing a measured and controlled drive in a car that wouldn’t go in a straight line and Raikkonen playing the perfect supporting role.

Mercedes were always unlikely to get the jump into the first turn and thus their race, almost from the off, became a fight for the final podium position. That said, race pace was possibly better than expected and they were able to keep the two prancing horses relatively close.

A clear delineation of driver status at Ferrari meant Raikkonen was never going to attack Vettel, as opposed to the situation at Mercedes where both drivers are allowed to race. Bottas may theoretically still be in the title fight but is, in reality, unlikely to win it and his pace after the initial pass showed he has less speed in general than Hamilton and Vettel. It would have therefore been understandable had the place not then been given back.

As a result, Hamilton deserves much credit for doing so and denting his own championship hopes in the process. Who’s to say what the correct way to go racing actually is but I doubt that any of his peers, in a similar situation, would have done the same thing.

The pace of Verstappen in the Red Bull was staggering in the final stint, the collision with Ricciardo was clearly not intentional and little more than a opening lap racing incident thus the resultant penalty seemed rather harsh. A case of what may have been for these two.

Further down, Alonso proved best of the rest but little else happened. Doubtless all will now be looking forward to the summer break, a chance to not only rest but also develop the cars for the crucial run in.

Time will tell whether or not this race was track specific and who of Mercedes, Ferrari, Hamilton and Vettel will ultimately win but Hamilton may now well have a slight edge, provided that Mercedes can also show him a performance advantage.

To be fair Hulkenberg came up to him in the media pen, interrupted his interview and very publicly told him he was the most unsportsmanlike driver on the grid. I thought Magnussen's response was fair enough, and the delivery was hilarious.

Didn't see this but I have to say it appears NH got what he deserved, trying to play the media game for effect and failing spectacularly it seems. Was this in English? Is it available on one of those video social media channels perhaps?

Yup, and it was sarcastic way too, "congratulating" to him for being "once again the most unsportsmanlike driver on the grid". Sure, then "Suck my balls, mate" was just what doctor ordered. edit: and it was in the middle of a Danish interview, for Danish viewers.

Quite disappointed that Kimi didn't stay out and try to overcut Vettel at the stops, like Vettel did at Monaco. I'm struggling to understand why he seems to have dropped any vestige of killer instinct

He wanted to stay out but wasn't allowed to overcut Vettel, eventually the penny might drop perhaps?

But he didn't force the issue, like Vettel would have. Monaco showed that Ferrari don't always have his best interests at heart, so he should have created the opportunity for himself

firstly he wants another contract and going against the team wont do him any favours there. thats obvious. also im pretty sure vettel was not told to pit the lap after kimi in monaco. he didnt force the issue. the team gave him the opportunity to use the overcut and it worked. it was planned and nothing really to lose. here kimi was told to pit and not given the chance to overcut without going against his team. he also clearly knows the situation that vettel is ahead in wdc and is not as selfish as maybe he should be and is a true team player in a way that vettel will never be. you can critisise him for it but i dont really think its his fault.

im afraid all us kimi fans can hope for now is bad luck for vettel so kimi might have a chance at a win or 2. spa would be nice. and i loved the comment from wolff when sky asked if swapping positions might cost them the championship and he basically said yes but we operate a fair team with that ethos and it wont change. good man. good team.

I don't think KM had much choice really, in the middle of an interview with his home TV station being interrupted like that, its a bit of a case of national pride! I bet there was a huge cheer in Denmark!

Quite disappointed that Kimi didn't stay out and try to overcut Vettel at the stops, like Vettel did at Monaco. I'm struggling to understand why he seems to have dropped any vestige of killer instinct

He wanted to stay out but wasn't allowed to overcut Vettel, eventually the penny might drop perhaps?

But he didn't force the issue, like Vettel would have. Monaco showed that Ferrari don't always have his best interests at heart, so he should have created the opportunity for himself

firstly he wants another contract and going against the team wont do him any favours there. thats obvious. also im pretty sure vettel was not told to pit the lap after kimi in monaco. he didnt force the issue. the team gave him the opportunity to use the overcut and it worked. it was planned and nothing really to lose. here kimi was told to pit and not given the chance to overcut without going against his team. he also clearly knows the situation that vettel is ahead in wdc and is not as selfish as maybe he should be and is a true team player in a way that vettel will never be. you can critisise him for it but i dont really think its his fault.

im afraid all us kimi fans can hope for now is bad luck for vettel so kimi might have a chance at a win or 2. spa would be nice. and i loved the comment from wolff when sky asked if swapping positions might cost them the championship and he basically said yes but we operate a fair team with that ethos and it wont change. good man. good team.

Are there any lap charts showing evidence that the overcut had any chance of working? Vettel was nursing a problem but I don't think he was losing as much time as the offset between new and old tyres. The overcut didn't work for Verstappen - obviously he had the penalty but aside from that he was losing time to the train behind him the longer he stayed out, in the hope he could attack later. If Kimi tried that he'd have ended up behind the Mercs

I don't think KM had much choice really, in the middle of an interview with his home TV station being interrupted like that, its a bit of a case of national pride! I bet there was a huge cheer in Denmark!

Danish people are, in average, cultured and fair, I don't think he got any more fans with that.

Between that comment and some of the stupid things he said about the Halo the other day, I've lost a lot of respect for Magnussen this weekend.

Wasn't just Magnussen though so do you condemn Verstappen as well? They are entitled to their opinion, I do wonder if some of the senior statesmen are being a bit politically correct though and veiling their true opinions.

Between that comment and some of the stupid things he said about the Halo the other day, I've lost a lot of respect for Magnussen this weekend.

Wasn't just Magnussen though so do you condemn Verstappen as well? They are entitled to their opinion, I do wonder if some of the senior statesmen are being a bit politically correct though and veiling their true opinions.

Verstappen was slightly more reasoned - I disagree but can respect him- he didn't just call it sh*t repeatedly like Magnussen did.

Quite disappointed that Kimi didn't stay out and try to overcut Vettel at the stops, like Vettel did at Monaco. I'm struggling to understand why he seems to have dropped any vestige of killer instinct

He wanted to stay out but wasn't allowed to overcut Vettel, eventually the penny might drop perhaps?

But he didn't force the issue, like Vettel would have. Monaco showed that Ferrari don't always have his best interests at heart, so he should have created the opportunity for himself

firstly he wants another contract and going against the team wont do him any favours there. thats obvious. also im pretty sure vettel was not told to pit the lap after kimi in monaco. he didnt force the issue. the team gave him the opportunity to use the overcut and it worked. it was planned and nothing really to lose. here kimi was told to pit and not given the chance to overcut without going against his team. he also clearly knows the situation that vettel is ahead in wdc and is not as selfish as maybe he should be and is a true team player in a way that vettel will never be. you can critisise him for it but i dont really think its his fault.

im afraid all us kimi fans can hope for now is bad luck for vettel so kimi might have a chance at a win or 2. spa would be nice. and i loved the comment from wolff when sky asked if swapping positions might cost them the championship and he basically said yes but we operate a fair team with that ethos and it wont change. good man. good team.

Quite disappointed that Kimi didn't stay out and try to overcut Vettel at the stops, like Vettel did at Monaco. I'm struggling to understand why he seems to have dropped any vestige of killer instinct

He wanted to stay out but wasn't allowed to overcut Vettel, eventually the penny might drop perhaps?

But he didn't force the issue, like Vettel would have. Monaco showed that Ferrari don't always have his best interests at heart, so he should have created the opportunity for himself

He's basically sold his sole for the dollar.

He's almost a hundred points behind Vettel in the championship. If he'd taken 7 points off Seb - or more, since Hamilton probably would have overtaken VET in that case! - it would have been the action of a mercenary, not a team player. His time to fight for the championship and prove himself against Vettel was earlier in the year, when he was still in the fight.

I respect what Kimi did, and I think it was clear to everyone that he had the pace to fight Seb but didn't do it.

Though the question being whether Bottas did not bother to push hard once the TO was issued. What was he to gain? They switched them. All he needed to ensure was to not let himself be passed by Max, and I do not think he was really ever actually threatened there.

He fell 5 seconds behind. He was a distance back that made the switch back completely impractical. I'd even say Hamilton should have been closer for the original switch, but I guess they had so much clean air and Vettel holding things up that it didn't matter.

Things change. I can tell you we have an agreement, but circumstances come up where it no longer makes sense for either of us. I think circumstances came up which made it make no sense for Merc to switch back - Hamilton (whilst not threatening) never really fell away from Kimi, Bottas clearly didn't have the pace to keep up with Hamilton or Kimi, and Verstappen was doing a pretty good job of keeping up with everyone.

Bottas created the scenario where a switchback no longer made sense. If he was intentionally holding something back, it wasn't the smartest move.

Yes, I do hear you. I am only wondering about what that exactly caused Bottas drop those 5 sec behind. Whether he gave his best and simply didn't have that enough pace to keep in touch, or he was also demoraliserad after the switch being made. I feel that he himself did not expect the place was to be given back and hence did not bother. It happened once already, if I am not mistaken.

They actually asked Bottas to stay within 2 seconds of Hamilton I guess to make the switchback easy but Bottas couldn't do it, in the end the switchback was a bit dicey in respect to how close Verstappen was.

Hamilton said over the radio, let me by if I don't pull away I will let him back past (Hamilton had the slower tyre or so shouldn't have been quicker). Mercedes ignored this anyway and ordered Bottas to just get out of the way and not fight Hamilton who was 1 second per lap quicker at this point. Bottas was never told he would get the position back that race - confirmed by Bottas himself after the race.

My impression from the race was that Hamilton was never significantly faster than Bottas, if at all, prior to their swap. Bottas ran into dirty air and got stuck behind the Ferrari's in the same way that Hamilton did later on. I will need to look at lap data later on, but that's what I got from watching live timing.

When Hamilton went past Bottas he set a 1-20.8 and in response Vettel upped the pace, Bottas couldn't live with the pace and slowly got gapped.

Quite disappointed that Kimi didn't stay out and try to overcut Vettel at the stops, like Vettel did at Monaco. I'm struggling to understand why he seems to have dropped any vestige of killer instinct

He wanted to stay out but wasn't allowed to overcut Vettel, eventually the penny might drop perhaps?

But he didn't force the issue, like Vettel would have. Monaco showed that Ferrari don't always have his best interests at heart, so he should have created the opportunity for himself

He's basically sold his sole for the dollar.

Or.... it is called being part of a team. He gets a good paycheck to be sure, but he also gets to drive one of the best cars in F1 for a legendary team, he is part of a championship chase, he gets to live the F1 lifestyle, and may even win a race or two or three more. We should all have such a low-life having sold-out as you suggest. I have no doubt that his "soul" was not part of the negotiations and.... I would guess that his shoes are probably part of some sponsorship, thereby he didn't have to sell his "sole".... but then, you probably would know that better than I.

Many a successful athlete... even drivers... have accepted more of a support role late in their careers. Has Kimi done this? Perhaps... maybe not. No matter what, he is an employee of Ferrari, just as every other driver is an employee of their respective teams. Today, he played a role that helped his team maximize their points for both Championships, and he played the role quite well. More power to him.

Quite disappointed that Kimi didn't stay out and try to overcut Vettel at the stops, like Vettel did at Monaco. I'm struggling to understand why he seems to have dropped any vestige of killer instinct

He wanted to stay out but wasn't allowed to overcut Vettel, eventually the penny might drop perhaps?

But he didn't force the issue, like Vettel would have. Monaco showed that Ferrari don't always have his best interests at heart, so he should have created the opportunity for himself

He's basically sold his sole for the dollar.

He's almost a hundred points behind Vettel in the championship. If he'd taken 7 points off Seb - or more, since Hamilton probably would have overtaken VET in that case! - it would have been the action of a mercenary, not a team player. His time to fight for the championship and prove himself against Vettel was earlier in the year, when he was still in the fight.

I respect what Kimi did, and I think it was clear to everyone that he had the pace to fight Seb but didn't do it.

"Earlier in the year" - you mean when his team pitted him from the lead into traffic for no other reason than to get the golden boy ahead?

But yes, the perfect submissive teamplayer. That's why he'll get a new contract.

Quite disappointed that Kimi didn't stay out and try to overcut Vettel at the stops, like Vettel did at Monaco. I'm struggling to understand why he seems to have dropped any vestige of killer instinct

He wanted to stay out but wasn't allowed to overcut Vettel, eventually the penny might drop perhaps?

But he didn't force the issue, like Vettel would have. Monaco showed that Ferrari don't always have his best interests at heart, so he should have created the opportunity for himself

He's basically sold his sole for the dollar.

He's almost a hundred points behind Vettel in the championship. If he'd taken 7 points off Seb - or more, since Hamilton probably would have overtaken VET in that case! - it would have been the action of a mercenary, not a team player. His time to fight for the championship and prove himself against Vettel was earlier in the year, when he was still in the fight.

I respect what Kimi did, and I think it was clear to everyone that he had the pace to fight Seb but didn't do it.

He's had a few dodgy strategies since early in the season, I'm sure Kimi is not that stupid after all he did question the strategies at the time, but basically he seems more than happy so long as the dollar is good.

Quite disappointed that Kimi didn't stay out and try to overcut Vettel at the stops, like Vettel did at Monaco. I'm struggling to understand why he seems to have dropped any vestige of killer instinct

He wanted to stay out but wasn't allowed to overcut Vettel, eventually the penny might drop perhaps?

But he didn't force the issue, like Vettel would have. Monaco showed that Ferrari don't always have his best interests at heart, so he should have created the opportunity for himself

He's basically sold his sole for the dollar.

Or.... it is called being part of a team. He gets a good paycheck to be sure, but he also gets to drive one of the best cars in F1 for a legendary team, he is part of a championship chase, he gets to live the F1 lifestyle, and may even win a race or two or three more. We should all have such a low-life having sold-out as you suggest. I have no doubt that his "soul" was not part of the negotiations and.... I would guess that his shoes are probably part of some sponsorship, thereby he didn't have to sell his "sole".... but then, you probably would know that better than I.

Many a successful athlete... even drivers... have accepted more of a support role late in their careers. Has Kimi done this? Perhaps... maybe not. No matter what, he is an employee of Ferrari, just as every other driver is an employee of their respective teams. Today, he played a role that helped his team maximize their points for both Championships, and he played the role quite well. More power to him.

He may win a race or 2 or 3 so long as Vettel is not in the running, a true racing driver is motivated to win races.

He's almost a hundred points behind Vettel in the championship. If he'd taken 7 points off Seb - or more, since Hamilton probably would have overtaken VET in that case! - it would have been the action of a mercenary, not a team player. His time to fight for the championship and prove himself against Vettel was earlier in the year, when he was still in the fight.

I respect what Kimi did, and I think it was clear to everyone that he had the pace to fight Seb but didn't do it.

He's had a few dodgy strategies since early in the season, I'm sure Kimi is not that stupid after all he did question the strategies at the time, but basically he seems more than happy so long as the dollar is good.

So that is the direction we are going to take now, is it. Kimi the greedy driver only in it for the "dollar".

I wonder how much his critics would do for millions and millions and millions of dollars? Most likely a whole lot more of "undesireable actions" than Kimi is being accused of, I suspect!

My highlight of the race was Max taking Daniel out, not because I don't like Daniel, but because I have always had the feeling Max was a first lap disaster waiting to happen.

Luckily he took his team mate out of the race, as even his team boss feels it's good he's aggressive and all, moving under braking and the lot finally it has come back to bite them and this really stung as it was at their best track where they could have had a serious points haul.

Good job by Ferrari particularly Vettel with the steering issues, and the Iceman as well for turning up and being on the pace.

As for Mercedes the quicker Hamilton gets on top of the car and stop ending up behind Bottas on weekends when the car is not dominant the better for him.

Alonso good drive both Mclaren and Honda came good, and yes Honda came good went the distance without reliability issues or being thirsty, still down on power but there's improvement.

He's almost a hundred points behind Vettel in the championship. If he'd taken 7 points off Seb - or more, since Hamilton probably would have overtaken VET in that case! - it would have been the action of a mercenary, not a team player. His time to fight for the championship and prove himself against Vettel was earlier in the year, when he was still in the fight.

I respect what Kimi did, and I think it was clear to everyone that he had the pace to fight Seb but didn't do it.

"Earlier in the year" - you mean when his team pitted him from the lead into traffic for no other reason than to get the golden boy ahead?

But yes, the perfect submissive teamplayer. That's why he'll get a new contract.

Well, Monaco was already too late for Kimi. Prior to that one, Vet with 2 wins and 3 second places, 104 points and leading the WDC, Kimi with 49 points ad 4th in the WDC. And you may also throw in the previous 2 years to get the bigger picture.

But time for you to move on from "golden boy" (boy, I have not heard that one for so long) to "golden man" by now?