Mr. Chaz Bono, formerly Chastity Bono, child of Sonny and Cher, will be interviewed by Oprah on her show Monday May 9.

txsvicki

05-23-2011, 01:10 AM

I thought there might be another thread about Chaz somewhere after the reality program has been airing about the transformation into a male has been playing over the weekend. Chaz seems like a very nice, sensitive, humble person. He's very respectful of his mother Cher and her feelings.

Silkprint

05-29-2011, 06:38 PM

I like Chaz ..takes guts to come out and talk about such personal things .

oh_gal

05-29-2011, 06:59 PM

I honestly don't know what to say about this.

It's obvious to me from the interviews I've seen that Chaz has struggled with his gender issues. For that, I feel badly for him.

What confuses me is his insistence that his breasts be augmented to resemble a man's (because he really detested having female breasts), but he's ok with keeping his female genitalia, which, to me, far more identify him as a woman. I've seen many men with large breasts, but none with female genitals.

I am just flummoxed over the whole thing.

tlcya

05-29-2011, 07:18 PM

I respect an individual's very personal decision to make their outside match in appearance with what they feel like their insides are.

That said, I don't know why Chaz keeps bringing what, to me, would be a deeply personal transformation, out into the public eye.

If Chaz were some sort of celebrity or felt he owed the world some sort of explanation or whatnot I would see it. But Chaz has always been very uncomfortable with the celebrity that came with being the child of Cher. He hid from the spotlight for many years for just that reason.

The last few years he has been popping up on talk shows and whatnot to discuss his gender issues. I must wonder if this is about paying some bills rather than a genuine wish to discuss this topic so publicly. If that is the case, I wish him well and hope the finances improve, so that he can once more withdraw from the spotlight he is so obviously not comfortable with.

reportertype

05-29-2011, 09:25 PM

It could also be about putting a voice out there re: gender issues. I cannot imagine how isolating it would feel to be trapped in the wrong body with most people calling you crazy as well as names I cannot print.

It's a way to put what celebrity he has to good use.

tlcya

05-29-2011, 09:31 PM

I understand what you are saying but Chaz has always been so awkward and uncomfortable in the spotlight, I can't help but feel like it is like a root canal for him when I watch him do these appearances.

PMLsmom

05-30-2011, 07:17 PM

The last few years he has been popping up on talk shows and whatnot to discuss his gender issues. I must wonder if this is about paying some bills rather than a genuine wish to discuss this topic so publicly. If that is the case, I wish him well and hope the finances improve, so that he can once more withdraw from the spotlight he is so obviously not comfortable with.

Respectfully snipped and BBM - I watched the documentary about Chaz, and I think it has a lot to do about the money issue (shows and what not).

In the show, his support group leader/member loaned him the $$ for breast removal surgery. He hasn't "gone all the way," as stated in the show, because that surgery isn't "perfected" enough...FWIW...

Reality Orlando

05-30-2011, 07:25 PM

It could also be about putting a voice out there re: gender issues. I cannot imagine how isolating it would feel to be trapped in the wrong body with most people calling you crazy as well as names I cannot print.

It's a way to put what celebrity he has to good use.

I think it may be that as well although I really have a problem with questioning children's sexual preferences when they are so young. I guess he ticked off Angelina Jolie by suggesting they meet regarding 5 year-old Shiloh...

"Bono told E! News he would be happy to talk to Jolie and Pitt about Shiloh — implying the little girl, who often appears dressed like a little boy, may have gender issues as she grows older. A source told OK! magazine that Jolie believes her kids are “off limits” and finds it “perfectly normal for little girls to be tomboys when they’re that age.”

No matter what... Chaz will always be a woman.She may live like a man and look like one but she will always be a she.Surgery doesn't even change the cold hard fact of the matter.

Kimberlyd125

05-31-2011, 02:52 PM

No matter what... Chaz will always be a woman.She may live like a man and look like one but she will always be a she.Surgery doesn't even change the cold hard fact of the matter.

No, that was decided at conception. Her DNA will never change.
She will never be a he.

JMO

LunaticFringe

05-31-2011, 04:36 PM

No, that was decided at conception. Her DNA will never change.
She will never be a he.

JMO

Like I said...she will always be a female.

Kimberlyd125

05-31-2011, 06:08 PM

Like I said...she will always be a female.

I know. I was agreeing with you.
:smile:

ITA with you.

LunaticFringe

05-31-2011, 06:40 PM

I know. I was agreeing with you.
:smile:

ITA with you.

Oh I know.:seeya:

Remember when the big news hit that a man was having a baby?I can't remember the names offhand.That was not a man impregnated.It was a woman and it ticked me off because it was deceitful in my opinion that they had some bombshell that a man was going to give birth.It was a woman in a transgendered process that was having a baby.

Don't get me wrong...I have no problems with peoples choices and they were really nice people and I wish the very best for their family.Just don't spin it and say it was a man.

Emma Peel

05-31-2011, 06:56 PM

Go CHAZ! :thumb:

...and thank you for sharing. One never knows when they'll meet a person like Chaz, at work, or socially, or even find they have a person like Chaz in their own family circle. It's good for the world to know & understand people like Chaz - and they should know they are not alone in the world.

Daisyjane

06-01-2011, 01:02 PM

I think it may be that as well although I really have a problem with questioning children's sexual preferences when they are so young. I guess he ticked off Angelina Jolie by suggesting they meet regarding 5 year-old Shiloh...

"Bono told E! News he would be happy to talk to Jolie and Pitt about Shiloh — implying the little girl, who often appears dressed like a little boy, may have gender issues as she grows older. A source told OK! magazine that Jolie believes her kids are “off limits” and finds it “perfectly normal for little girls to be tomboys when they’re that age.”

I've always wondered about this: girls who wear boys' clothes, play sports, enter male-dominated professions are more readily accepted. They are hailed as tomboy, spunky, assertive, go-getters. But boys who wear dresses, play with dolls, or enter female dominated professions are ridiculed and called sissy, wimp or worse. Such a stark contrast; why is one more acceptable than the other?

Melanie

06-01-2011, 01:11 PM

I honestly don't know what to say about this.

It's obvious to me from the interviews I've seen that Chaz has struggled with his gender issues. For that, I feel badly for him.

What confuses me is his insistence that his breasts be augmented to resemble a man's (because he really detested having female breasts), but he's ok with keeping his female genitalia, which, to me, far more identify him as a woman. I've seen many men with large breasts, but none with female genitals.

I am just flummoxed over the whole thing.

I'm just as flummoxed as you. Everyone refers to Chaz as a he, and he went and had his gender legally changed, but he still has a vajayjay. So is he a girl or a man or a half man half girl.

IMHO unless you can find a way to get rid of that extra female chromosome, I would always consider Chaz to be a female IMHO. Does he have a Y chromosome floating around in there somewhere? If so, then he would have a peni.

It's a political debate for the most part, and I DON'T want to go there. But I've yet to figure out this whole thing.

JHMO.

Mel

Females have two X chromosomes, whereas males have one X and one Y chromosome.

Melanie

06-01-2011, 01:13 PM

I've always wondered about this: girls who wear boys' clothes, play sports, enter male-dominated professions are more readily accepted. They are hailed as tomboy, spunky, assertive, go-getters. But boys who wear dresses, play with dolls, or enter female dominated professions are ridiculed and called sissy, wimp or worse. Such a stark contrast; why is one more acceptable than the other?

IMHO, I think it's all political or personal issues. My son carried a doll around for the longest time as a young'in. My DH would have a fit. I said get over it, it's not gonna turn him into a girl. The whole trans-gender thing is just so odd to me, and that's probably because I can't figure it out.

MOO

Mel

Melanie

06-01-2011, 01:16 PM

Oh I know.:seeya:

Remember when the big news hit that a man was having a baby?I can't remember the names offhand.That was not a man impregnated.It was a woman and it ticked me off because it was deceitful in my opinion that they had some bombshell that a man was going to give birth.It was a woman in a transgendered process that was having a baby.

Don't get me wrong...I have no problems with peoples choices and they were really nice people and I wish the very best for their family.Just don't spin it and say it was a man.

OMG - don't even get me started on that one "Bomshell - man has a baby". What that man was/is a she...just as Chaz is. At this moment, Chaz could have a baby. Unless Chaz had a hysterectomy or somfin, or hormone shots keep Chaz from ovulating. Does Chas mensturate? Sorry to be so personal...I don't even know what to call her/him....

Perplexed!

MOO

Mel

smart blonde

06-01-2011, 01:17 PM

In my opinion...
If Chaz Bono identifies himself as a man, then he is a man.
End of story.

Kimberlyd125

06-03-2011, 09:34 AM

In my opinion...
If Chaz Bono identifies himself as a man, then he is a man.
End of story.

I could identify myself as a tree, but I would not be a tree.

Identifying yourself as something you are not does not change your genetic makeup.

She was born a female and will die a female. No amount of surgery or hormones can change that.

Emma Peel

06-04-2011, 05:33 PM

Why feel compelled to argue with the man about whether or not he's a man? :dunno: Those who do, IMO are off base.

Chaz is a he, because he is a competent adult that identifies as a he. No amount of insisting that he can't identify as male because he lacks body parts or he's missing a Y chromosome will make Chaz identify as a woman. Why should anyone insist he do so? It's not like he's trying to fool us. He's telling us his personal truth. Why say "no, sorry you're wrong, that's not who you are, and even if you traded in your bottom for a proper man bottom, your blood tests would prove otherwise". Why?

IMO, this is not a political issue. It's a gender identity issue. Psycho-bio-social issue.

Obviously - Chaz is well aware of his bio-genetics. His entire story is that he was biologically born a female, but all of his life, he has not identified as female, he's identified as male. It's been a struggle for him, he's happier now. IMO, this is what his interviews are about, and his book.

And so what about it? Is biology the arbiter of who and what is male and male-like and who and what is female and female-like? Is society? Culture? Religion? One's mother? One's father? One's bigotry?

For the record, scholars, psychologists, social science and medicine have all determined that most certainly is a difference between karyotype male/female (biological-chromosomal state) and being and the state of being psycho-socio-culturally male/female (gender identity).

One can, indeed, be biologically female, but socio-culturally gender-identified as male. It's not the simplest thing - but on the other hand - it really isn't that complicated either - and Chaz is but one example. Trans-identity works the other way too. And the other way and the other way - and basically along the whole continuum. Googling a number of wiki articles can answer many questions in this area. As in "when is a tree not a tree".

How one experiences their own Identity is what is the reality. The way people experience themselves (gender-wise) in the world is to be respected, IMO.

A gynephilic FtM transexual is what Chaz presents as. He is female-to-male trans, and he is gynephilic (libido preference is for a female sexual partner).

Gynephilic FtM transsexuals

Brain-based research has repeatedly shown that female-to-male transsexuals have several male-like characteristics in neuroanatomy. In 2010, a team of neuroscientists compared 18 female-to-male transsexuals with 24 male and 19 female gynephilic controls, using an MRI technique called diffusion tensor imaging or DTI.[104] DTI is a specialized technique for visualizing white matter of the brain, and white matter structure is one of the differences in neuroanatomy between men and women. The study found that the white matter pattern in female-to-male transsexuals was shifted in the direction of biological males, even before the female-to-male transsexuals started taking male hormones (which can also modify brain structure).

Another team of neuroscientists, led by Nawata in Japan, used a technique called single-photon emission computed tomography (SPECT) compare the regional cerebral blood flow (rCBF) of 11 female-to-male transsexuals (attracted to women) with that of 9 biological females (attracted to men). Although the study did not include a sample of biological males so that a conclusion of "male shift" could be made, the study did reveal that the female-to-male transsexuals showed significant decrease in blood flow in the left anterior cingulate cortex and a significant increase in the right insula, two brain regions known to respond during sexual arousal.[105]

FWIW, Gender Studies has been a course of study on US campuses for several generations now. Plenty of research & literature to peruse. To read more about gender identity and related issues and research in this area - just google related topics.

What's new (well, if not new, then rare), is Chaz is sharing his difficult experience with identity. And I give him tons of credit for that.

BTW, this is Chaz's third book. He's published twice before. Both well-reviewed tomes. Under the name Chastity Bono. Each book had to do with his life's struggle with gender identity.

I don't think anybody is insisting she do anything.
Just giving an opinion that just because people identify as something they are not, it does not change what they are.

She is a she who lives as a he.

Simple science.

Beyond Belief

06-05-2011, 03:25 PM

If Chaz Bono wants to be a dude its okay by me. I heard his interview and I liked him.

Emma Peel

06-05-2011, 05:56 PM

No matter what... Chaz will always be a woman.She may live like a man and look like one but she will always be a she.Surgery doesn't even change the cold hard fact of the matter.

No, that was decided at conception. Her DNA will never change.
She will never be a he.

JMO

Like I said...she will always be a female.

I know. I was agreeing with you.
:smile:

ITA with you.

In my opinion...
If Chaz Bono identifies himself as a man, then he is a man.
End of story.

I could identify myself as a tree, but I would not be a tree.

Identifying yourself as something you are not does not change your genetic makeup.

She was born a female and will die a female. No amount of surgery or hormones can change that.

I don't think anybody is insisting she do anything.
Just giving an opinion that just because people identify as something they are not, it does not change what they are.

She is a she who lives as a he.

Simple science.

Actually, the science of gender identity is not "simple science". :waitasec:

see BBM above:
Chaz's entire point is that he hasn't changed who he is. In his heart & mind this is who he has always been.

His only argument about his chromosomes is with nature. :D

BTW, those quotes all insist that transgendered people can never become the opposite sex - lots of that insisting going on in this thread. ;)

I suppose I shouldn't ask. But what the hey.

When Chaz completely transitions and has corrective genital surgery and a penis between his legs, then can we use the pronoun "he" when speaking of him? Is it the missing penis that's causing confusion with Chaz being transgendered? :innocent:

Or is the confusion simply that someone born with female sex traits could believe they should have been born with male sex traits and elects to have medical procedures to transition their sex?

:cow:

Melanie

06-05-2011, 07:16 PM

I could identify myself as a tree, but I would not be a tree.

Identifying yourself as something you are not does not change your genetic makeup.

She was born a female and will die a female. No amount of surgery or hormones can change that.

With no disrespect to Chaz, that was really funny! I really don't care what people do behind closed doors (unless they are messing with children or murdering someone). But I must admit it confuses my son and I do not know how to explain it to him. He's 14.

Well dear, he was born a she, but wants to be a he, because he always felt he wanted to be a he. It's like "wait a minute, I thought Chaz was a girl", now he's a boy?

I have a hard enough time with the birds and the bees, and know I have to warn him that there are some girls out there with peni, and some men out there with a vajayjay.

In my world, and my world only, and not imposing on any WS here, there is something wrong with that picture. I never learned of trans-gender until I was well into my 20's (and not something my mother ever told me). Now it's on Good Morning America and every other network news channel.

Again, just my opinion, and I hope you will respect my opinion, as I respect yours.

Hugs,

Mel

Emma Peel

06-05-2011, 11:39 PM

Here's something else to learn from Chaz and Cher's experience.

How do we know if our own children are gender-identifying and sexually-preferencing differently than we ourselves do?

Answer:

We don't.

...unless they tell us.

JMHO & food for thought.:innocent:

1000Sparks

06-06-2011, 10:18 AM

Personally I find this whole thing disgusting. Does he want to date girls?

If his mom didn't have the money, what would she have done.

Going on TV to show "look at me now" is so degrading.

Beautiful little girl God made and he destroyed it.

Donjeta

06-06-2011, 01:05 PM

How do we know that God didn't make a beautiful transgendered person?

Melanie

06-06-2011, 02:07 PM

How do we know that God didn't make a beautiful transgendered person?

I personally don't know that - which is why I find it so difficult. The only thing I can compare it to is that some babies are born with both female and male parts, and that becomes quite a conflict in that person. In most cases the parents "pick" which part to remove -- often in later life this proves to be wrong according to the person (too many lifetime movies).

I don't even begin to know what's going on in the mind of Chaz. I can only wish Chaz the best.

ALSO, I don't appreciate Chaz reaching out to Shiloh (Jolie/patt's) kid saying that she has someone to go to if she wants to be a man, as per the local latest trash magazine (because she wants to dress like her brothers). I found that completely innapropriate. My son carried a doll, is Chaz gonna be there for him just in case? ICK.

Again, just my opinion - thanks.

Mel

Herding Cats

06-06-2011, 05:55 PM

I am fairly uneducated on the subject, and don't know any transgendered person well enough to ask (I know of one, but she isn't very friendly, and I would not want to get that personal with her).

I also have a bit of a negative history with a male to female TG. Never mind what, but suffice it to say it's pretty negative.

That being said, I spent some time watching a documentary this morning on Youtube, called "Bodyshock." I found it sad, interesting, and not terribly educational, but it was more than I knew this morning. But I came away from this documentary with a feeling of deception from the families, and of families quite skewed in some ways.

The TG does not fit into my world view very well. Then again, God says don't judge, that's His job, so I do what I can to curb my own judgment about TGs. I don't know what to think, and while I feel bad for a lot of folks who are "different", because of what society does to them, I can't muster the same sympathy here.

I hate to admit it. And I wouldn't care if they ended up in a hospital bed in front of me - they'd get my best, just like everyone else. But I'd be less than honest if I said "sure, fine, whatever."

I don't know what else to say, other than I wish peace to everyone...and that Chaz saying something about Shiloh was out of line.

Best-
Herding Cats

Emma Peel

06-06-2011, 09:26 PM

*sigh*

chaz's comment was pulled out of him by an interviewer who brought up shiloh's name (chaz did not) as an example of a tomboy and what would he do if a tomboy's parents were worried and wanted advice.

chaz, who clearly needs more practice with the seedy entertainment press, answered, IMO, in a kind and caring manner.

it was a hypothetical question, not invented by chaz, yet chaz kindly provided a hypothetical answer.

So... now let's crucify him for it because he's weird and scary and has the audacity to share his journey.

By the way, it's National LBGT Month. Chaz knows that b/c he's an activist for Transgenders & LBGT in general.

LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL, AND TRANSGENDER PRIDE MONTH, 2009
- - - - - - -
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
A PROCLAMATION

Forty years ago, patrons and supporters of the Stonewall Inn in New York City resisted police harassment that had become all too common for members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community. Out of this resistance, the LGBT rights movement in America was born. During LGBT Pride Month, we commemorate the events of June 1969 and commit to achieving equal justice under law for LGBT Americans.

LGBT Americans have made, and continue to make, great and lasting contributions that continue to strengthen the fabric of American society. There are many well-respected LGBT leaders in all professional fields, including the arts and business communities. LGBT Americans also mobilized the Nation to respond to the domestic HIV/AIDS epidemic and have played a vital role in broadening this country's response to the HIV pandemic.

These issues affect not only the LGBT community, but also our entire Nation. As long as the promise of equality for all remains unfulfilled, all Americans are affected. If we can work together to advance the principles upon which our Nation was founded, every American will benefit. During LGBT Pride Month, I call upon the LGBT community, the Congress, and the American people to work together to promote equal rights for all, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim June 2009 as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month. I call upon the people of the United States to turn back discrimination and prejudice everywhere it exists.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this first day of June, in the year of our Lord two thousand nine, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-third.

I don't know why. Just felt like posting that. Gonna post it over on the Disney Gay Day thread too.

By the way ... please note that the "T" stands for Transgender.

Capri

06-06-2011, 10:07 PM

For some reason, this whole Chaz/formerly Chastity issue doesn't bother me so much. "His" chromosomes are xx. can't change that, but he has chosen to live as a male, and used plastic surgery (as many have, only usually for implants, nose jobs, more "acceptable" forms of changes). Really, though, he's ok with it, his girlfriend is ok with it, Cher's ok with it, there are much worse things to worry about. JMHO, of course. I do kind of wonder if he's content now, mostly because of the need to keep explaining himself via writing books, etc.... I would wish him more comfort in his own skin than I think he has...male or female.

Emma Peel

06-06-2011, 10:40 PM

For some reason, this whole Chaz/formerly Chastity issue doesn't bother me so much. "His" chromosomes are xx. can't change that, but he has chosen to live as a male, and used plastic surgery (as many have, only usually for implants, nose jobs, more "acceptable" forms of changes). Really, though, he's ok with it, his girlfriend is ok with it, Cher's ok with it, there are much worse things to worry about. JMHO, of course. I do kind of wonder if he's content now, mostly because of the need to keep explaining himself via writing books, etc.... I would wish him more comfort in his own skin than I think he has...male or female.

Perhaps because people like Chaz are honestly documenting, writing and sharing their experience, the rest of world might someday learn what their journey has been like. Good, bad, better, indifferent... each will have their own journey for their own reasons no doubt.

IMO, many people have extraordinarily difficult journeys of self-discovery. When they choose to share it, they should be respected - not criticised. I'm in no position to agree or disagree with Chaz's choices here b/c I really don't know him.

As you wisely point out above, those who really know him seem quite content with his choices, and agree that he's a happier Chaz than he was a Chastity.

And that's good enough for me. And good enough reason to listen to Chaz as he shares his story.

:cow:

1000Sparks

06-07-2011, 08:28 AM

and God didn't make transvestites. It's choosing right from wrong...

and going on the tv circuit and a book turns my stomach. I know, I know, I don't have to read it but why would anyone want to?

dodie20

06-07-2011, 02:17 PM

well, if the operation hasn't been completed, I don't think Chaz should be sounding off on this. He's speaking from a limited perspective...a superficial view, IMO. On the outside, he looks like a man, but the most important physical part is still female . Until he makes the full committment, there are a lot better spokes people...unless this was the result he was after? to retain female genitalia? The other night, I watched an HBO documentary about sex changes in Iran. Surprisingly, this country is pretty accepting and can back it up with religion...but the families were just as confused and depressed as anybody. I consider myself pretty open minded, but this is the one area where I'm pretty close minded. IDK why, but I just think we should leave Mother Nature alone. I don't like any surgery in general, and the thought of some money hungry doctor just hacking away, worries me. The few transgender people I've dealt with have a few things in common. They came from terrible homes, were severly abused, and I worry they were taught to hate themselves so much, that they want to erase that person from existence. One guy in particular, came from the most physically abusive home, I've ever seen. His younger brother, while still in elementary school, shot and killed a friend, and now this guy is wanting this operation. IDK, but I see a lot of self hatred and psychological scars that no operation is going to fix. When he's a she, I think he will still be the same scarred, unhappy person on the inside.. and to top it off, he's married to a woman old enough to be his grandmother.

LunaticFringe

06-07-2011, 04:24 PM

Chaz Bono lives as a man.
Chaz Bono was born and will die genetically a female.

I wish Chaz a very happy and fulfilling life.Chaz has a girlfriend that has been involved with Chaz for a very long time.May they both be loved and happy.

It is what it is.

southcitymom

06-08-2011, 12:12 PM

In my opinion...
If Chaz Bono identifies himself as a man, then he is a man.
End of story.

Agree 100%.

southcitymom

06-08-2011, 12:29 PM

How do we know that God didn't make a beautiful transgendered person?

Obviously, She does! ;)

Human sexuality is a spectrum and a mystery; not a black and white science. But as a general rule, I think people are more comfortable viewing it as black and white.

I'm friends with several transgendered people (all former shes who are now hes) in various stages of pre and post. Though some consider their path unnatural, my experience has been that they're just like the rest of us.

I'm a fan of people speaking and living out their truths, so Chaz gets high marks from me in his decision to live out loud with this. If his openness about his sexuality gives hope and peace to just one other person who might be struggling with the same issues, then he has made the right choice!

southcitymom

06-08-2011, 12:35 PM

and God didn't make transvestites. It's choosing right from wrong...

and going on the tv circuit and a book turns my stomach. I know, I know, I don't have to read it but why would anyone want to?

BBM

Because nothing human is foreign to me!

I love to learn about the different paths people chose as they make their way through life. No matter how bizarre or off the beaten path some choices are, when people are honest about their journeys, they have a lot of spiritual wisdom to offer to the rest of us.

southcitymom

06-08-2011, 12:42 PM

well, if the operation hasn't been completed, I don't think Chaz should be sounding off on this. He's speaking from a limited perspective...a superficial view, IMO. On the outside, he looks like a man, but the most important physical part is still female . Until he makes the full committment, there are a lot better spokes people...unless this was the result he was after? to retain female genitalia? The other night, I watched an HBO documentary about sex changes in Iran. Surprisingly, this country is pretty accepting and can back it up with religion...but the families were just as confused and depressed as anybody. I consider myself pretty open minded, but this is the one area where I'm pretty close minded. IDK why, but I just think we should leave Mother Nature alone. I don't like any surgery in general, and the thought of some money hungry doctor just hacking away, worries me. The few transgender people I've dealt with have a few things in common. They came from terrible homes, were severly abused, and I worry they were taught to hate themselves so much, that they want to erase that person from existence. One guy in particular, came from the most physically abusive home, I've ever seen. His younger brother, while still in elementary school, shot and killed a friend, and now this guy is wanting this operation. IDK, but I see a lot of self hatred and psychological scars that no operation is going to fix. When he's a she, I think he will still be the same scarred, unhappy person on the inside.. and to top it off, he's married to a woman old enough to be his grandmother.

BBM

Perhaps I am missing something in this post. I've had a vagina my whole life and would never describe it as my most important physical part - not even close.

Some (but not all) of the transgenereds with whom I am friends have childhood abuse in their past. The only common theme I have discovered in these folks is that they are just like the rest of my friends (hetero, homo, male, female, whatever) - they want love, peace, acceptance....

abstr

06-08-2011, 03:13 PM

I wish Chaz the best. I may not understand this but I truly believe that Chaz always felt like a man or at least confused about sexuality. Chaz seems quite well adjusted. Do I say everything is ok, as in alternate lifestyles....no but I can't imagine Chaz going thru this if she/he didn't really feel it was in her soul.
I am religious and don't think God makes mistakes. We are human and have been since Adam and Eve.....
May he live happily. I think he is a great spokesperson for the transgendered. He is not living some crazy life...he is living the life he feels is his.
MOO and probably not worded well.

Melanie

06-08-2011, 05:48 PM

Did anyone watch Chaz's show on OWN. I thought I'd try to get a perspective on what Chaz is going through, and boy was I sad. The show was SO sad and the struggles Chaz went through is nothing anyone should have to go through. Do I think he's happy now? Nope! I was really really - REALLY upset that while he was undergoing his transformation (which isn't complete yet) he is out there telling parents who "think" their very young children may be transgender to start them on hormones IMMEDIATELY so they don't go through puberty and experience what he did.

Who gives him that right? He admitted he spent 10 years on drug, stayed at home, is depressed, is going through severe testosterone rages -- yet tells a young child that it's okay to want to be a boy and to do this and that. I thought the Shiloh reach out was a rumour, but it obviously isn't.

Chaz needs to go back home and get through his change first before lecturing the world on his so called expertise. If anyone said anything like that to my son, I'd be livid.

It's one thing to support someone who is transgender (and is mentally capable of making such a decision), but a child? The brain isn't even developed until your early 20's.

So that's what I took away from the show -- just a lot of sadness. His relationship is another story - but completely dysfunctional.

Chaz - I can only wish him the best.

MOO Please and Thanks.

Mel

Emma Peel

06-08-2011, 06:52 PM

I saw Chaz & his partner on Pierce Morgan. He was fine. For an hour. Did not see Chaz on Oprah.

The Shiloh thing was a stupid set-up by a reporter who threw out Shiloh's name (from nowhere) at Chaz - as an example of a tomboy. And the reporter ran with Chaz's sound bite. IMO - The irresponsible one here is the reporter. And, time will tell, but I'm thinking Chaz doesn't bite that hook ever again. :crazy:

MissJames

06-08-2011, 07:43 PM

Personally I find this whole thing disgusting. Does he want to date girls?

If his mom didn't have the money, what would she have done.

Going on TV to show "look at me now" is so degrading.

Beautiful little girl God made and he destroyed it.

His mom didn't pay for it.Two very lovely friends of his helped with those expenses.
They were introduced on the show.
I hate to see anyone suffer needlessly. Chaz suffered. Maybe you or I would have chosen another way,but this is his way. God does not love him any less than he loves me,IMO.
I am a conservative in every ,except when it comes to judging choices like Chaz made.

ziggy

09-17-2011, 03:47 PM

I'm still confused as to how you can legally be declared a man when you still have female DNA and a vagina. I don't have a problem with what Chaz has done and no doubt he really feels like he needs to be a man to go through it all, but if nobody knew Chaz and he was found dead, (heaven forbid this is just a what if) what would a coroner classify him as...would he find the body to be male? I think we need a hybrid gender classification.

Donjeta

09-17-2011, 04:23 PM

I don't think it would be a problem. If a missing person has changed their gender the police would probably know about it and the coroner would know what they're looking for when trying to identify them. AFAIK they most commonly use dentals and DNA to identify UID's and the sex change operation wouldn't disturb either of those processes. Regardless of which gender the deceased identified with, their DNA will be matched with the UID similarly.

I assume that the searches can be run without specifying gender because there was a case in which an apparently female UID was matched with a male MP by DNA.

marge_rita

09-17-2011, 05:18 PM

I don't understand how someone can be born female, become or realize they're homosexual, enter a relationship with a woman, then take hormones and have surgery to become a man but still stay with the same female homosexual partner. There's too much stuff going on for me to grasp.

imo

Donjeta

09-17-2011, 05:54 PM

Maybe they still love her?

Is it properly classified as a homosexual relationship if the other partner identifies as a man?

deelytful1

09-17-2011, 06:23 PM

To each their own... words I live by. As long as they're not hurting others... I accept them for who they are.. and Chaz thinks he is a man. I'm totally okay with his choice. As someone who grew up on the Sonny & Cher show, I think there is alot more psychologically going on there... BUT I'm sure he had much counseling before taking this step and making these life changing decisions.

stilettos

09-17-2011, 06:27 PM

I do not know how to qualify or quantify Chaz's situation. I would say that I want God to have mercy on me and not give me what I deserve for my deeds in this life....so I wish nothing but the same for Chaz. God Bless Him....and God love him.

Lifted

09-18-2011, 08:54 PM

I could identify myself as a tree, but I would not be a tree.

Identifying yourself as something you are not does not change your genetic makeup.

She was born a female and will die a female. No amount of surgery or hormones can change that.

I bet you think being gay is a choice as well.

Flossie JMO

09-18-2011, 09:19 PM

God bless Chaz, I hope he finds peace and happiness. I know some are not religious, and my apologies to them, God loves us all. Including Chaz.

Emma Peel

09-19-2011, 12:35 AM

The Oscar-winning actress and singer slammed her son's critics. "If you got that excess time and that amount of hostility, I'm not so sure that I can say anything to you that would make you change your feelings," she said. "I don't know that I would have any magic words to make you feel more comfortable and to soothe you into not being terrified of my child dancing on "Dancing With The F*#%ing Stars."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20528139,00.html

:lol:

:rocker:

gitana1

09-19-2011, 01:51 AM

No, that was decided at conception. Her DNA will never change.
She will never be a he.

JMO

I'm just as flummoxed as you. Everyone refers to Chaz as a he, and he went and had his gender legally changed, but he still has a vajayjay. So is he a girl or a man or a half man half girl.

IMHO unless you can find a way to get rid of that extra female chromosome, I would always consider Chaz to be a female IMHO. Does he have a Y chromosome floating around in there somewhere? If so, then he would have a peni.

It's a political debate for the most part, and I DON'T want to go there. But I've yet to figure out this whole thing.

JHMO.

Mel

Females have two X chromosomes, whereas males have one X and one Y chromosome.

There's a lot of confusion about what makes a person male or female. I think EmmaPeel really explained very well. But let me add. For those who feel it is simple science and that you are what your DNA states you are, what about this?:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MedicalMysteries/story?id=5465752&page=1
This is a woman who was born with completely male DNA. Yet, she is a woman, with female parts. What is she?

And what about Leslie Feinberg? He is a man, born genetically as a woman. No sex change of his genitalia. But can we truly say this is a woman? I mean, really?:
http://www.learner.org/amerpass/unit16/images/author04-7947.jpg

http://www.bcholmes.org/images/tg/leslie.jpg

I could identify myself as a tree, but I would not be a tree.

Identifying yourself as something you are not does not change your genetic makeup.

She was born a female and will die a female. No amount of surgery or hormones can change that.

How about this? Science states that what defines us a male or female is a combination of genetics, hormones and brain structure: Biology and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Rainbow_flag_and_blue_skies.jpg" class="image" title="LGBT pride flag"><img alt="LGBT pride flag" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Rainbow_flag_and_blue_skies.jpg/150px-Rainbow_flag_and_blue_skies.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/6/6d/Rainbow_flag_and_blue_skies.jpg/150px-Rainbow_flag_and_blue_skies.jpg

In fact, many scientists studying twins, who investigated cases where one twin turned out Queer (transgender or gay) and one did not, believe that flushes of hormones in utero often play a major role in sexual identity or gender identity. In other words, one fetus may receive a flush of testosterone, even though that fetus is programmed to be female. The result? Anywhere on the spectrum from straight to gay to transgender (and, I'm guessing, perhaps even intersex, formerly known as hermaphrodite):

Nancy Segal, a professor of developmental psychology and director of the Twins Study Center at California State, Fullerton, says Juan's experience is helping researchers understand twins better. "From what Juan and Liana tell us, genes do not predict identical behaviors," she said.
Doctors think that something happened in the womb that made the twins different.
"We expect that Juan was exposed to higher levels of testosterone and male hormone, which might have redirected her brain somewhat, making her feel like a man. This did not happen to her sister, who grew up as a full female," Segal said.
Segal, author of "Entwined Lives: Twins and What They Tell Us About Human Behavior," says scientists are beginning to look at what happens to identical twins within the womb to explain similarities and differences that surface later in life.
"The womb is a very different experience for identical twins, and in some ways it's surprising that identical twins are as alike as they are," Segal said. "Gender is a complicated behavior affected by many things. Even with identical twins, who are so alike in many ways, as Juan and Liana are, there still can be profound differences between them."
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=174855&page=1

So, it seems that gender identity is really not so simple and science does not tend to show that the gender as classified by your DNA is the gender you will die as.

I like to think in terms of black and white. It's safer. I don't have to worry about things. I don't have to be confused. Black and white thinking gives me the parameters for life and the answers to almost every question. However, as I have aged, I have learned that there are a lot of shades of gray - in everything. That's not always a comfortable place to be, which is why I think so many people have problems with things like "homosexuality" or transgender people, etc. I get that. But the gray exists, in science and in life, whether we like it or not and whether it's comfortable or not.

And if it is uncomfortable for those who do not have to confront the shades of gray, how does it feel for those who are forced to confront it because it is their life?:

20/20 "My Secret Self" Part 1 of 5 - YouTube

20/20 "My Secret Self" Part 2 of 5 - YouTube

20/20 "My Secret Self" Part 3 of 5 - YouTube

20/20 "My Secret Self" Part 4 of 5 - YouTube

20/20 "My Secret Self" Part 5 of 5 - YouTube

And what do you do if that's your child, living in that gray?

I urge anyone who feels they know the answers to the dilemma of transgender identity, to watch the above documentary and others, all easily found on youtube. And also, please read Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg. I thought I knew so much and was so open-minded but that book really opened my eyes to the pain society and family can cause a person with such an identification, how hard the road is they have to travel.

I think there is a lot to be learned about these issues and to me, opinions are much more valuable, whether I agree with them or not, when in the context of educated dialogue. :twocents:

krimekat

09-19-2011, 02:49 AM

Thank you for sharing the 20/20 series! I cried & cried . . . it's so difficult feeling uncomfortable in your body. I can't imagine the emotional toll these human beings go through every single day.

Truthwillsetufree

09-19-2011, 02:52 AM

I wish the best of everything for Chaz and his family. I could care less about his physical attributes or lack thereof.

TrackerSam

09-19-2011, 10:26 AM

Respectfully snipped and BBM - I watched the documentary about Chaz, and I think it has a lot to do about the money issue (shows and what not).

In the show, his support group leader/member loaned him the $$ for breast removal surgery. He hasn't "gone all the way," as stated in the show, because that surgery isn't "perfected" enough...FWIW...

I agree - follow the money. Having female breasts removed won't make a man of her and never will. Cutting the wings off a plane doesn't make it a boat. But if she's happier then good for her. Calling anyone with no talent a celebrity because of who the mother is, is just mindless.

Silkprint

09-19-2011, 09:51 PM

Loved Chaz as a little girl and love Chaz and the man he has become now ...
I cannot believe with all the bad things happening in the world that people worry about someone elses sexuality or who they love ..I dont get it .
All I care about is if someone isnt a pedophile and they leave animals alone ! man, woman, gay or straight!

TrackerSam

09-20-2011, 10:37 AM

Loved Chaz as a little girl and love Chaz and the man he has become now ...
I cannot believe with all the bad things happening in the world that people worry about someone elses sexuality or who they love ..I dont get it .
All I care about is if someone isnt a pedophile and they leave animals alone ! man, woman, gay or straight!

Most of us aren't. There's sexual identity and then there's gender - which is what the doctors put on your birth certificate. Chastity was born female and always will be. Wearing men's clothing won't change that. A 'Boy Named Sue' is still a boy. Being PC won't change anything either. Some of us just refuse to call Chastity a man, beyond that you're looking for an argument where none exists. I don't care what costume she wears. My problem with her and this show is calling her a 'star' as in DWTS. And if all we should opine on is "the bad things happening in the world", then why does this tread topic exist?

gitana1

09-20-2011, 11:21 AM

Most of us aren't. There's sexual identity and then there's gender - which is what the doctors put on your birth certificate. Chastity was born female and always will be. Wearing men's clothing won't change that. A 'Boy Named Sue' is still a boy. Being PC won't change anything either. Some of us just refuse to call Chastity a man, beyond that you're looking for an argument where none exists. I don't care what costume she wears. My problem with her and this show is calling her a 'star' as in DWTS. And if all we should opine on is "the bad things happening in the world", then why does this tread topic exist?

Silkprint does not seem to be stating that we shouldn't opine on only the bad thins in the world. She/he appears to be stating surprise that anyone would be worried about Chaz's gender identity, given all the horror in the world. It is certainly, though, an interesting subject and debate.

gitana1

09-20-2011, 11:27 AM

Most of us aren't. There's sexual identity and then there's gender - which is what the doctors put on your birth certificate. Chastity was born female and always will be. Wearing men's clothing won't change that. A 'Boy Named Sue' is still a boy. Being PC won't change anything either. Some of us just refuse to call Chastity a man, beyond that you're looking for an argument where none exists. I don't care what costume she wears. My problem with her and this show is calling her a 'star' as in DWTS. And if all we should opine on is "the bad things happening in the world", then why does this tread topic exist?

Question for you Tracker. You state that gender is what doctors put on your birth certificate. That indicates that gender is determined b y the appearance of one's genitalia at birth. What do you believe is a person's gender, then, if they are born with ambiguous genitalia? Like intersex people? Would you accept it if a person born intersex, and designated one gender, decides later, when they are older, that the other gender applies?

What do you feel about the case of the lady I cited above, who was born with definite, female genitalia, but whose DNA states she is 100% male? Is she still female, merely because a doctor deemed her to be so at birth?

ETA: Regarding the designation of Chaz as a "star", I can say that there are many of those people on the show I never heard of before or do not recognize as some sort of artist or professional entertainer. Isn't the show for B-rated "stars" or otherwise marginally famous people? I mean, for example, Bristol Palin was on the show and she's only the daughter of a famous politician. Chaz actually put out albums in the 80's. What did Bristol do?

SondraK

09-20-2011, 12:00 PM

I believe ( not that you are required to care) that what is in the heart and soul of a person is what is important, not what they are encased in. A body is merely a means of allowing the heart and soul to express themselves. Gender is a non-issue in living a good, loving, and productive life.

Blessings

Silkprint

09-20-2011, 12:14 PM

Some of us just refuse to call Chastity a man
I understand Tracker .
If I talked to people on the street or some family ,I am sure there would be all sorts of opinions .
What I am saying though - In the scope of things . Who cares?
What difference does it make on how someone else chooses to live their life whether anyone else agrees with it or not.
It's all good :)

TrackerSam

09-20-2011, 12:45 PM

Question for you Tracker. You state that gender is what doctors put on your birth certificate. That indicates that gender is determined b y the appearance of one's genitalia at birth. What do you believe is a person's gender, then, if they are born with ambiguous genitalia? Like intersex people? Would you accept it if a person born intersex, and designated one gender, decides later, when they are older, that the other gender applies?

What do you feel about the case of the lady I cited above, who was born with definite, female genitalia, but whose DNA states she is 100% male? Is she still female, merely because a doctor deemed her to be so at birth?

ETA: Regarding the designation of Chaz as a "star", I can say that there are many of those people on the show I never heard of before or do not recognize as some sort of artist or professional entertainer. Isn't the show for B-rated "stars" or otherwise marginally famous people? I mean, for example, Bristol Palin was on the show and she's only the daughter of a famous politician. Chaz actually put out albums in the 80's. What did Bristol do?

What is Bono's DNA male or female? It doesn't matter - IMO if you're born with female genitalia, you can never be a male. That's an opinion and only an opinion and is no more a fact than it is to say she now a male.
I think the show started out to be dancing with stars, but has slipped to dancing with has beens and used to be, plus athletes. It should be called Dancing with Celebrities, but as you pointed out, some of them I've never heard of and Bono's only celebrity comes from being the transgendered daughter of Cher.

LydiaDeetz

09-20-2011, 12:55 PM

I don't understand how someone can be born female, become or realize they're homosexual, enter a relationship with a woman, then take hormones and have surgery to become a man but still stay with the same female homosexual partner. There's too much stuff going on for me to grasp.

imo

Speaking for myself only, I'm a woman in a longterm lesbian relationship. But, if my partner decided to switch genders, she'd still be the same person to me, and I'd stick around. I wouldn't be able to throw away our life together over it, because at this point, she's far more than just a female to me, she's my partner.

TrackerSam

09-20-2011, 01:00 PM

What did Bristol do?

Exactly.

essies

09-20-2011, 01:02 PM

As one who believes who we truly are is spirit which dwells within this physical vehicle, which is mortal and dies, spirit or soul is eternal-that is our true identity. Understanding is a process and I have certainly come a long way in that process and still continuing to do so. There was a time when I would have said many of the same things posted here about transgender and how can you go from lesbian to wanting to be a male. But, as I have gotten older, and hopefully wiser, I can see that there are issues I never considered since I don't see thru the eyes of a transgendered person.
To me Chaz seems happier and more comfortable now and I wish him the best. I found this interview with David Letterman which I think is really good as David asks many of the questions the average person would have concerning this "condition".
David Letterman -_- Chaz Bono - Part 1 - 2011.05.11 - YouTube
David Letterman -_- Chaz Bono - Part 2 - 2011.05.11 - YouTube

Kimberlyd125

09-20-2011, 04:02 PM

I bet you think being gay is a choice as well.

Has nothing to do with the topic.

My point is, you can't change chromosomes.

gitana1

09-20-2011, 04:24 PM

What is Bono's DNA male or female? It doesn't matter - IMO if you're born with female genitalia, you can never be a male. That's an opinion and only an opinion and is no more a fact than it is to say she now a male.
I think the show started out to be dancing with stars, but has slipped to dancing with has beens and used to be, plus athletes. It should be called Dancing with Celebrities, but as you pointed out, some of them I've never heard of and Bono's only celebrity comes from being the transgendered daughter of Cher.

I agree with you as to the nature of the show. Its title is a bit too lofty.

As to gender, I specifically asked you about intersex people for a reason. You didn't answer that question, really. The reason I asked is because most people, like you, believe that gender is determined by the outward appearance of our genitalia, hence the announcement at birth: "It's a girl!" or "It's a boy!" Many people share your belief that someone born with female genitalia will always be female. Period.

But intersex people evidence that gender may be more than just genitalia. So does the case of the woman I cited who has female genitalia but solidly male DNA. And what about this?:

Caster Semenya, a South African runner, who has had no known hormonal treatments or surgery, had her gender investigated by the IAAF after she broke a world record and her gender was questioned by those who noted her very masculine appearance and voice. She was born with obviously female genitalia: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/20/caster-semenya-south-afri_n_264451.html

"The test, which takes weeks to complete, requires a physical medical evaluation, and includes reports from a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and an expert on gender."

The very existence of people like Caster or intersex people call into question the notion that gender is determined by the appearance of one's genitalia. In fact, a whole team including a "...gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and an expert on gender" were needed to determine Caster's gender. So, how can one be so definitive that genitalia is how we determine gender?

There are various types of intersex. Some have very obvious male genitalia, yet they also have ovaries and a uterus. Some have genitalia that is hard to determine - it looks somewhere in between. What causes it? In the case of one example of a type of intersex, the cause is found to be:

46, XX Intersex. The person has the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male. This usually is the result of a female fetus having been exposed to excess male hormones before birth. The labia ("lips" or folds of skin of the external female genitals) fuse, and the clitoris enlarges to appear like a penis. Usually this person has a normal uterus and Fallopian tubes. This condition is also called 46, XX with virilization (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002339.htm). It used to be called female pseudohermaphroditism. There are several possible causes:

Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000411.htm) (the most common cause).
Male hormones (such as testosterone (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003707.htm)) taken or encountered by the mother during pregnancy.
Male hormone-producing tumors in the mother. These are most often ovarian tumors (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001165.htm). Mothers who have children with 46, XX intersex should be checked unless there is another clear cause.
Aromatase deficiency. This one may not be noticeable until puberty. Aromatase is an enzyme that normally converts male hormones to female hormones. Too much aromatase activity can lead to excess estrogen (female hormone); too little to 46, XX intersex. At puberty these XX children, who had been raised as girls, may begin to take on male characteristics.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

In many intersex cases, a hormone disruptor or the introduction of the opposite hormone in utero, via tumor, or otherwise, causes the sex organs to be atypical. Isn't it also possible that some fetuses are flushed with the hormone opposite to themselves but either not to a degree that it would actively change their genitalia or possibly in a manner that leaves their genitalia as originally determined but changes other aspects of the body, like the brain structure, such that the baby born does not feel the gender reflected by their genitalia? That's what some scientists think.

IMO, if it takes a whole team to test a person's gender, than the question of gender is not as simple as looking at someone's genitals, even though that is an easy approach. Science shows that the question of gender is not fixed and not always so easy to determine. And if hormones can cause the appearance of ambiguous genitalia, why can't they cause changes in brain structure as well, in how someone perceives themselves, etc.?

Scientists have, in fact, shown via brain scans that the brains of most transgendered individuals operate like the sex opposite to the one they were born with. In other words, a child born female who feels like a male, has a brain that operates like a male brain, not like a female one:

(http://portal.uned.es/portal/page?_pageid=93,696653,93_20531562&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL)
"Antonio Guillamon (http://portal.uned.es/portal/page?_pageid=93,696653,93_20531562&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL)'s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who'd had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.
They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006)). "It's the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised," Guillamon says." http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

What do you think of that? And what are we to do with such people? Tell them that the way they think is wrong? That if they choose to identify in a manner dictated by their brain structure rather than their sex organs, that they are merely wearing a costume and will never be what their brains show they are?

And what if that's your child who feels that way? When you come into the bathroom and find your six year old holding scissors up to his penis, wanting to cut off that piece of himself that to him is shockingly opposite from what he knows himself to be - a "she" - do you tell the kid that he's crazy, completely wrong, will always be a boy and if he tries to express otherwise, he'd be doing nothing different than trick or treating?

Or maybe you would do this?:

AC360 - The &#39;Sissy Boy&#39; Experiment - Part One - YouTube

The Sissy Boy Experiment Part 2 - YouTube

(The above case highlights the case of a boy who was gay. But such "treatment" would apply to those who are transgender as well).

I don't know. I'd rather have my kid happy and alive than told that what their brain is telling them is a lie, because it doesn't match their private parts. I'd rather have a kid like this than a kid who wants to cut off their genitals or kill themselves:

Jazz sings "Happiness" while chewing gum at the same time - YouTube

Jazz age 9, fun times dancing - YouTube

Jazz age 10 Mamma Mia reprise - YouTube

7yr. old Jazz&#39;s thoughts on being a Transgender Child - YouTube

:twocents:

Donjeta

09-20-2011, 05:51 PM

Sex change is very natural in some species.
Male clownfish may become female if the dominant female in their group dies and in some other species it happens from female to male.

Donjeta

09-20-2011, 05:59 PM

Has nothing to do with the topic.

My point is, you can't change chromosomes.

You can't but chromosomes do not define our whole being, IMO. The genes are just the beginning of our development and then there are a host of internal and environmental factors during the pregnancy that may alter how the genes are expressed (for example, hormone levels, brain development, people with Y chromosome who develop as females because some substances/receptors that are involved in the development of male genitalia do not function normally etc.). Then there is everything in our upbringing that shapes our view of who we are. Chromosomes are important but there is more to gender than chromosomes IMO.

Kimberlyd125

09-20-2011, 08:16 PM

Chromosomes define male/female.

I'm not arguing that she can or can not live as a male. I'm not arguing what made her want to live as a male.

gitana1

09-20-2011, 10:50 PM

Chromosomes define male/female.

I'm not arguing that she can or can not live as a male. I'm not arguing what made her want to live as a male.

Kimberly, if it was that simple, than why does it take a six week test, a physical medical evaluation, and reports from a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and an expert on gender, to determine gender, as in the case of Caster Semenya? You say chromosomes determine gender, TrackerSam says it's the genitals one is born with and I have provided clear examples of cases that prove there are exceptions to those rules.

In the case of chromosomes, that would be the lady I cited who has definite, female sex organs and looks like a woman but who has completely male DNA:

"Atwood is not a freak -- nor is she half-man, half-woman. But her DNA says she's a man. That's because she has male chromosomes, an X and a Y, instead of two Xs, like most females. It's a disorder of sexual development in the womb called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, or AIS. It can be passed down through the mother or occur as a spontaneous mutation.

"There are probably about seven-and-a-half thousand people, women, in the U.S. with the condition," said Dr. Charmian Quigley, a pediatric endocrinologist."
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MedicalMysteries/story?id=5465752&page=1

http://www.infoniac.com/uimg/eden-atwood.jpg

So Kimberly, can you tell me, do you believe that Atwood is a man or a woman?

I mean, it's easy to repeat the same thing over and over again but with all due respect, to me it means nothing if one is unwilling or unable to address scientific facts that tend to undermine certain definitive statements.

I bring up these "exceptions to the rule", like Caster Semenya's case, Eden Atwood, intersex people, etc., to argue that if they biologically bend gender "rules" than can't transgender people be exceptions to the rule as well? If these cases evidence that gender is not as definitive as some claim, determined absolutely by one's chromosomes or the sex organs they are born with, than who are we to argue that someone like Chaz is inauthentic and simply wearing a costume to hide "her" real self?

Kimberlyd125

09-21-2011, 08:18 AM

This thread is about Chastity Bono. She was born with female genitalia and female DNA.

She was born a female, lived most of her life as a female, and will die a female. No amount of surgery will ever change that.

She did not have any of the things you cited.

It's my opinion. It will not change.

I have no interest in spending my time researching the issue. I don't feel I need to.

We will just have to disagree on this.

dunlurken

09-21-2011, 08:56 AM

You know.... I was watching dancing with the stars last night. My daughter and I didn't know what to say about it. Finally I said it's a lesbian. Just think... you have female genetalia, had your boobs removed, but all in all you're still a girl/female aka DNA. She/he danced like a girl. JMO. :waitasec: What an identity crisis Chastity must be going through. What a world of turmoil Chastity was brought into. Then again, Cher, her mother, supports Chaz/Chastity, so what can I say. This one is really tough

TrackerSam

09-21-2011, 10:55 AM

This thread is about Chastity Bono. She was born with female genitalia and female DNA.

She was born a female, lived most of her life as a female, and will die a female. No amount of surgery will ever change that.

She did not have any of the things you cited.

It's my opinion. It will not change.

I have no interest in spending my time researching the issue. I don't feel I need to.

We will just have to disagree on this.

Well said. Citing facts in other cases does not change the facts in this one. It's not about Chastity's sexual identity, it's about her gender.

Emma Peel

09-21-2011, 03:15 PM

This thread is about Chaz Bono, who gender-identifies as male, in spite of having been born with biological sex characteristics that are female and in spite of being given the name Chastity at birth, and in spite of having enough celebrity as a child that much of the world knows he was born a little girl.

If you (care to) listen to what Chaz says, he very consistently refers to himself as a transgendered person who identifies as male. It's not a difficult concept - especially if one listens to a transgender person speak of how they experience their gender and identity.

Through his various books and appearances, Chaz has shared with the world his experience. And he's shared some rather intimate details - that physically - he's had his female breasts removed and takes male hormones to gain male secondary sex characteristics but he has not yet had transgender surgery below the belt b/c he is not confident in the wisdom of having that rather experimental surgery yet; likely he has health concerns about it. He explains his life is much better living as he identifies - living as a male - and for having made the transitions in sexual characteristics that he's made.

Had Chaz not provided this detail on his physical characteristics, we'd never know what state of transition he was currently living in - would we?

That Chaz will always have female sex characteristics is rather obvious to all. (Especially since he was originally introduced to the world as Chastity.) And to Chaz, I would imagine. ;)

IMO, Chaz would likely not argue with the logic that he was born with female sex characteristics and will die with female sex characteristics - no matter what he does to himself.

In fact, the fact that Chaz is biologically female and, therefore the opposite of his actual gender identity - is the major part of the transgendered experience. We'll ever hear Chaz insisting he has Y chromosomes. Rather what we hear him saying is that the sexual characteristics he was born with just don't match his identity ... and so ... after psychological and medical treatment and long and careful thought ... he decided to do something about it - in an effort to become more comfortable with the body he lives in.

An aside with regard to the hilarious horticultural analogies - did you know that gardeners grow potatoes and tomatoes on the same plant? Wonder if that makes it a potato plant or if it's really a tomato plant? Biologically, it's got to be one thing and logically it can't be the other. So which is it? A tomato plant? A potato plant? :waitasec:

Perhaps we don't really care, just so long as it's alive and productive.

:cow:

1000Sparks

09-21-2011, 03:24 PM

He's making money now. Dancing with the Stars? or whoever was obscene.

Why didn't he living in his own world. Most don't care.

Are there no secrets anymore?

Kimberlyd125

09-21-2011, 03:27 PM

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Even those such as myself who may be in the minority.

I could care less what she calls herself.

The fact remains, there is no amount of surgery that will change your sex.
None.

shana

09-22-2011, 11:52 PM

On the Troy Davis thread last night, I posted an intentionally naive comment: Thankful for my education. (re the unreliability of eyewitness testimony, learned decades ago).

Life is about learning. There is much we do not know and will not know by the time we leave. Knowledge evolves daily and adds to our education, like it or not. Being receptive to new info is our right and our duty, no matter how we put it into the mix of what we think we knew and eventually conclude. Sometimes, we learn to change our minds. Imagine that! :-o

There was a time not so long ago in this country when white ppl feared blood transfusions from African-Americans.

I'm most thankful for gitana's extensive research provided on this thread...ticking the Thanks button was just not enough.

gitana1

09-23-2011, 12:06 AM

Shana, thank you too. I really appreciate that.

Kimberlyd125

09-23-2011, 12:25 AM

And there are topics that some would rather go by their beliefs and faith about without needing to research it.

Sorry. It is what it is.

There are some topics I'm not willing to budge on or "educate" myself on. There are some topics that defy or cross lines or morality for ME.

There is "science" that can make you question everything in life. There is also a person's right to not choose to question things they believe or don't believe in.

Has nothing to do with education. Has everything to do with one's personal walk.

JMO

ETA: OT- Science told my 37 year old brother in law he would live around 2 weeks (2 wks ago) but we decided to live on Faith Hope and Love.
Today he got VERY GOOD news. He's not going anywhere anytime soon. Thank God.
I believe sometimes the scientific community could educate themselves by looking at how us uneducated people live sometimes.

A judge on Thursday granted a request to change the name and gender of the 41-year-old writer, activist and reality TV star.

Chaz Bono was born a girl, named Chastity, to Sonny Bono and Cher and underwent a gender-change operation last year.

Bono was represented in court by attorney Kristina Wertz of the Transgender Law Center. Wertz says the judge’s order is an important step in Chaz Bono’s transition and will allow him to reflect his new identity on a variety of official documents.

Wertz says in a statement, “Chaz couldn’t be happier.”

Given that Chaz has legally changed his gender ... not to mention all of the other trouble he's gone through to become better aligned with his true gender identity ... it seems only appropriate to refer to Chaz as "he" and refrain from calling him by his former female name.

To do otherwise - well - would seem intentionally disrepectful & intolerant, or at the very least, willfully ignorant.

IMO ... whatever defense one claims, referring to Chaz as "she" rather smacks of bullying.

:cow:

Emma Peel

09-23-2011, 02:06 AM

On the Troy Davis thread last night, I posted an intentionally naive comment: Thankful for my education. (re the unreliability of eyewitness testimony, learned decades ago).

Life is about learning. There is much we do not know and will not know by the time we leave. Knowledge evolves daily and adds to our education, like it or not. Being receptive to new info is our right and our duty, no matter how we put it into the mix of what we think we knew and eventually conclude. Sometimes, we learn to change our minds. Imagine that! :-o

There was a time not so long ago in this country when white ppl feared blood transfusions from African-Americans.

I'm most thankful for gitana's extensive research provided on this thread...ticking the Thanks button was just not enough.

:thumb:

yes, thanks gitana.

And, oh my! How I agree with the BBM above.

:yes: Learning & loving is the way I try to "walk" my walk in this precious life.

Given that Chaz has legally changed his gender ... not to mention all of the other trouble he's gone through to become better aligned with his true gender identity ... it seems only appropriate to refer to Chaz as "he" and refrain from calling him by his former female name.

To do otherwise - well - would seem intentionally disrepectful & intolerant, or at the very least, willfully ignorant.

IMO ... whatever defense one claims, referring to Chaz as "she" rather smacks of bullying.

Given that Chaz has legally changed his gender ... not to mention all of the other trouble he's gone through to become better aligned with his true gender identity ... it seems only appropriate to refer to Chaz as "he" and refrain from calling him by his former female name.

To do otherwise - well - would seem intentionally disrepectful & intolerant, or at the very least, willfully ignorant.

IMO ... whatever defense one claims, referring to Chaz as "she" rather smacks of bullying.

:cow:

BBM Absolutely Emma. I know people are scared of what they don't understand (or what they are unwilling or incapable of educating themselves about) but geez, what purpose does it serve to actively perpetuate hateful, intolerant behaviors other than to try to hurt another person??? Walk away, treat others as you wish to be treated and live by your own principles....fine. But why purposefully be spiteful and mean? Why intentionally hurt someone? Our children are watching, be an example for them. Stop the ignorance, hate and bullying.

I had never watched the show before and don't know if I will again, but I have to say Chaz did a very admirable job, as did most of the contestants. It takes guts to get up there and do that, not to mention when you have become such a target of scorn and ridicule. Good on him!

Kimberlyd125

09-23-2011, 11:45 AM

It's not that many are uneducated or unwilling... it's that other's have different OPINIONS on the matter.

There is a difference.

She made the choice to go on a media tour to discuss her "change". She should respect that there are many in the world that think no matter what she does, she will always be a woman.

Saying she is what I believe SHE is. It's my opinion.

How is saying the word she bullying?
How is saying the word she hateful or intolerant?

She choose this spotlight.

Nobody would be talking about this at all had she not put it out there. When you do that, you must take the good responses with the bad.

EVERYBODY is entitled to have an opinion. And I do.

TrackerSam

09-23-2011, 12:04 PM

BBM But why purposefully be spiteful and mean? Why intentionally hurt someone? Our children are watching, be an example for them. Stop the ignorance, hate and bullying.

You claim it - now name it. Who's being spiteful and mean by expressing the opinion that gender can't be changed? Who's being "intentionally hurt" by expressing the opinion that gender can't be changed? Better to stop the PC delusional crap and tell the truth. Tell the truth - our children are watching.
Chaz (because you can change your name) Bono, is not now and will never be a man. Our children are watching so tell the truth - for the children.

animlzrule

09-23-2011, 01:24 PM

You claim it - now name it. Who's being spiteful and mean by expressing the opinion that gender can't be changed? Who's being "intentionally hurt" by expressing the opinion that gender can't be changed? Better to stop the PC delusional crap and tell the truth. Tell the truth - our children are watching.
Chaz (because you can change your name) Bono, is not now and will never be a man. Our children are watching so tell the truth - for the children.

Gender is much more complex than what is dangling (or isn't) between the legs. This individual identifies as male, has legally changed his gender to male and lives as a male. What purpose can it possibly serve to insist to his face, for example, over and over----but you're female!!!?? Why? It's not true. He lives his life as a male. By insisting on refusing to recognize his identity, one in turn can dehumanize him and perpetuate the intolerance and bigotry and fear of others we don't recognize as being like ourselves. And what is the purpose of that? He's a person. He identifies as male. It's not harmful, dangerous, shameful....and he deserves to not have people denying to him an identity that makes him feel whole and who he is. It's crazy making to do otherwise. When one dehumanizes another, it makes it easier to act on base emotions and lash out in fear. Why choose to treat people that way?? It's bullying, it's mean, and it's wrong. Kids need to be taught tolerance, and it starts at home.

animlzrule

09-23-2011, 01:28 PM

Gender is much more complex than what is dangling (or isn't) between the legs. This individual identifies as male, has legally changed his gender to male and lives as a male. What purpose can it possibly serve to insist to his face, for example, over and over----but you're female!!!?? Why? It's not true. He lives his life as a male. By insisting on refusing to recognize his identity, one in turn can dehumanize him and perpetuate the intolerance and bigotry and fear of others we don't recognize as being like ourselves. And what is the purpose of that? He's a person. He identifies as male. It's not harmful, dangerous, shameful....and he deserves to not have people denying to him an identity that makes him feel whole and who he is. It's crazy making to do otherwise. When one dehumanizes another, it makes it easier to act on base emotions and lash out in fear. Why choose to treat people that way?? It's bullying, it's mean, and it's wrong. Kids need to be taught tolerance, and it starts at home.

Actually, upon reviewing my post, I realize this: Kids need to be taught tolerance, and it starts at home. is wrong. Children are born remarkably tolerant. It is family and the people around them that can influence whether or not they stay that way. Why choose to introduce intolerance into a child's worldview??? It's sad.

Kimberlyd125

09-23-2011, 01:38 PM

Who is in her face?
We are discussing a topic on WS!

You make it sound like people who don't agree (like me) are running around shouting at her. That would be bullying.

Discussing a topic here, and being honest about your opinion is not bullying.

Chaz knows this is a controversial topic. Isn't that why she's advocating?

Surely no one expects everybody in the world to agree with operations such as this.

Also, check out the suicide rates, the regret, and the health issues that often follow this type of operation.
It's not all roses and cotton candy.

It's deciding to undergo major surgeries and pumping your body full of hormones that are not naturally occurring in your body because you are not the correct sex for those hormones.

It's not natural or healthy.

I personally think this kind of procedure should be against the law.

But, that's just MY opinion.

Kimberlyd125

09-23-2011, 01:40 PM

Actually, upon reviewing my post, I realize this: Kids need to be taught tolerance, and it starts at home. is wrong. Children are born remarkably tolerant. It is family and the people around them that can influence whether or not they stay that way. Why choose to introduce intolerance into a child's worldview??? It's sad.

To teach my children that is ok would be even more sad IMO.

People who scream tolerance are often the most intolerant to others' personal beliefs.

JMO

Kimberlyd125

09-23-2011, 02:22 PM

How many psychological disorders do we know of where surgery is the answer?

Most times, psychological disorders are treated with medication and counseling.

Wouldn't it make more sense to try to get to the bottom of why someone has this phychological disorder and work on treating the MIND?

Wouldn't major surgery to change your physical self be kind of ineffecient in treating a mental condition? I think the answer is yes. And I think there is a lot of info out there that supports my opinion.

This is just an example, before anyone says anything about the race issue, it was not meant to be racist in any way.... Just an example...

If I had a disorder where I felt I was a black girl trapped in a white girl's body, would I have surgery to change the color of my skin? Or would I get help to find out why I felt that way and try to change the way I feel?

IMO you don't use surgery to mask or treat a mental disorder.

animlzrule

09-23-2011, 04:23 PM

<modsnip>

Wee wee'd up? Yes, I guess in these times where bullying has exacted such a tragic and irreversible price as to be costing young people their lives, I do tend to beat my head in frustration when I see people blithely banter about "just opinions" when those "opinions" are actually cloaked in bigoted speech. Chaz Bono is different. He is not deviant. He is an actual living, breathing, human being with feelings, worth etc.....not a circus freak. As adults, lets lead by example and accept people for who they are. DWTS did not make a grand announcement, "Introducing, Chaz Bono, transgendered individual!!!!" The only way children know about his circumstances is from parents/adults allowing them to view adult content whether it be on TV, radio, internet, newspapers and railing about it in their presence. By virtue of their parents/adults negative, disbelieving response, they are being indoctrinated to view people such as Chaz Bono as spectacles to be analyzed and investigated with suspicion. Why do that? If I were to watch the show with my son, he would recognize Chaz Bono as a man, there would be no question on his part, and therefore, no controversy. He would never know Chaz changed his gender unless I told him or exposed him to adult content. I just can't believe it is 2011 and these kind of debates are raging on. We really need more division amongst the human race???? Really???? About whether someone identifies themselves as male or female???

Kimberlyd125

09-23-2011, 04:50 PM

I have never had to explain transgender to my 13 year old DD.
Never thought it was necessary.
And she never asked about it.

But, her favorite show... DWTS forced that upon me.

My 13 year old was confused as all get out. Her first question... Is that a man? Looks like a girl.

I told her Chaz was a woman who is living as a man. (100% truth)

Next question.... Why?
Answer...Ummm because she wants to.

Next question.... But she IS a girl right. Just pretending to be a boy.
Answer... Well she is taking certain steps and having surgeries to look more like a man.

Next question... People can do that???
Answer: yes they can. But, I believe God is the one who gets to decide that. I don't think we should change that.

Now... That's not teaching hate. It's not teaching intolerance. It's teaching my child in a way I think is appropriate due to our beliefs.

My child knows not to treat people different because they are not like us. But, she also knows she can have feelings and opinions and she has every right to have them.

We don't have a hateful household.

Kimster

09-23-2011, 05:02 PM

Once again the topic of sexual preferences has caused me to get alerts. I've removed the most heated posts but if you guys want to discuss this issue, it better calm down real quick or I'll close the thread.

This is a crime forum and I really don't have time to moderate volatile topics that aren't in the realm of crime.

Emma Peel

09-24-2011, 02:34 AM

We can all agree that it's a parent's responsibility to address these issues as they see fit with their minor children.

*************

Again - and because this happens to be a salient point here - Chaz has legally changed his gender. NOT JUST HIS NAME.

Chaz has legally changed his gender - which is allowed for in the laws of his state.

There's just no argument to be had that Chaz is male and therefore a "he" on this without challenging law.

Furthermore, Chaz agrees, and applied for the change with the evidence that he's a transgendered person. He's not hiding this fact. He is what he is. And referring to him as a "she" is wrong.

But Chaz has made his choice and it's legal and done. There is absolutely no reason to refer to him as "she", unless you are actively compelled to dis (as in disrespect) his sexual preferences and trying (as in actively denying) his rights to be a legally transgendered person and - legally - male.

Fortunately, we have laws supporting and recognizing Chad's right to be transgendered as male. We also have laws that say you can't prevent someone's employment based on sexual preference discrimination.

Which brings us full circle with the fact that ... it's actually against the law to seek to deny Chaz the right to his work as a celebrity contestant on Dancing with the Stars because of his sexual preferences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_States#Employment_discri mination
The states banning sexual orientation discrimination in employment are California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin (the first state to do so, in 1982).

IMO - Gloria's hit the nail on the head. And - with great respect for WS as a Crime Forum - Ms. Allred & Ms. Tyler client explain in some detail the crime involved in this particular topic of discussion.

Chaz changed his gender via the steps he's taken to become transgendered. And he changed his gender legally. Documentation of this has been provided on the thread. To claim otherwise is a violation of his legal right to be accepted as male.

And that's not an opinion. It's a fact.

SpriteGal

09-24-2011, 02:41 AM

I think a lot of people get confused the meaning of gender and sex. You can change your gender, but not your sex. IMO. Chaz is a male genderwise, but biologically his sex is female. IMO.

Emma Peel

09-24-2011, 03:02 AM

I think a lot of people get confused the meaning of gender and sex. You can change your gender, but not your sex. IMO. Chaz is a male genderwise, but biologically his sex is female. IMO.

Agreed that it is confusing. For reference:

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

smart blonde

09-24-2011, 08:24 AM

My daughter, my only child, is kind, loyal, honest, intelligent, funny, beautiful, generous and just all-around wonderful. She is 27 years old, gay/ lesbian, and dresses herself in what could only be considered 'male' style. She self-identifies as female, and has no desire to change her gender. If she did though, I would be supportive of her decision, because I want her to live her life as who she is, whatever gender that may be. She has always made friends easily, and has always been a 'people magnet'. She is the kind of person others are just simply drawn to.

She says she has always known she was gay. She has never had sexual relations with a male- and, has never wanted to. She 'came out' to me when she was fifteen years old, and the only thing that bothered me was that I hadn't realized she was gay, myself. After all, she is my only child- I thought I should have known. But the thing is, she was Courtney then, as she is Courtney now. Nothing changed. That is probably why I didn't 'notice'. Her sexual orientation is only a part of who she is. Just like she has blue eyes, she's allergic to strawberries, she wears a size 7 shoe, she is gay. It all works together to make up who she is.

Although I am only 18 (and three quarter) years older than she, I have noticed that overall, her generation is much more accepting, and respectful, of another's individuality. The majority of her generation seem to realize it makes about as much sense to judge someone on their sexuality as it does to judge them on what size foot they have.

(People my age and older are the ones who seem to be the most judgmental. You wouldn't believe some of the things people have said to me over the years when they learn my daughter is a lesbian. But, if you want to see an easy-going woman turn into a mother lion, just say it to my face, lol)! :angel:

I am grateful to Mr. Chaz Bono for bringing awareness and enlightenment about gender issues to such a wide audience. What he is doing takes so much courage, only because there is still so much ignorance in the world. He knew that masses of strangers would be foaming at the mouth to tear him apart, simply for being who he is, yet he stepped forward anyway, in the hopes of opening some minds, and making the journey that much easier for others who need to follow in his footsteps. Yes, need. We each get one life to live. What a nightmare it would be to have to live it as someone you are not- just because of what others might think of you.

PAJS

09-24-2011, 09:19 AM

Smart Blond-

I hear and feel what you are saying. As the mother of an adult, lesbian daughter, I do not understand the problems about accepting others. All I know is my daughter is the same person I've loved for all her life. I remember her pain as she struggled to tell loved ones-she was so relieved to tell us. It pained me to see her suffer-because I knew for a long time, but for some reason she wasn't talking yet. It was such a burden lifted from her when she told us. Some older members of the family seemed a bit uncomfortable, but they still loved her.

I know the heartache one lives with when he/she can't be who they really are, without a lot of trouble. I so admire Chaz for his efforts to speak for those who are not ready to speak yet. I respect him for doing what he is doing, despite all the backlash-he is a trooper. I'm glad he's living his life as he wants. Everyone deserves that much.

Pat S

Emma Peel

09-24-2011, 01:52 PM

My daughter, my only child, is kind, loyal, honest, intelligent, funny, beautiful, generous and just all-around wonderful. She is 27 years old, gay/ lesbian, and dresses herself in what could only be considered 'male' style. She self-identifies as female, and has no desire to change her gender. If she did though, I would be supportive of her decision, because I want her to live her life as who she is, whatever gender that may be. She has always made friends easily, and has always been a 'people magnet'. She is the kind of person others are just simply drawn to.

She says she has always known she was gay. She has never had sexual relations with a male- and, has never wanted to. She 'came out' to me when she was fifteen years old, and the only thing that bothered me was that I hadn't realized she was gay, myself. After all, she is my only child- I thought I should have known. But the thing is, she was Courtney then, as she is Courtney now. Nothing changed. That is probably why I didn't 'notice'. Her sexual orientation is only a part of who she is. Just like she has blue eyes, she's allergic to strawberries, she wears a size 7 shoe, she is gay. It all works together to make up who she is.

Although I am only 18 (and three quarter) years older than she, I have noticed that overall, her generation is much more accepting, and respectful, of another's individuality. The majority of her generation seem to realize it makes about as much sense to judge someone on their sexuality as it does to judge them on what size foot they have.

(People my age and older are the ones who seem to be the most judgmental. You wouldn't believe some of the things people have said to me over the years when they learn my daughter is a lesbian. But, if you want to see an easy-going woman turn into a mother lion, just say it to my face, lol)! :angel:

I am grateful to Mr. Chaz Bono for bringing awareness and enlightenment about gender issues to such a wide audience. What he is doing takes so much courage, only because there is still so much ignorance in the world. He knew that masses of strangers would be foaming at the mouth to tear him apart, simply for being who he is, yet he stepped forward anyway, in the hopes of opening some minds, and making the journey that much easier for others who need to follow in his footsteps. Yes, need. We each get one life to live. What a nightmare it would be to have to live it as someone you are not- just because of what others might think of you.

:tyou:

Many thanks for a beautiful & wise post that gets right to the heart of the matter on a topic that can only benefit from these shared experiences.

Emma Peel

09-24-2011, 02:14 PM

Smart Blond-

I hear and feel what you are saying. As the mother of an adult, lesbian daughter, I do not understand the problems about accepting others. All I know is my daughter is the same person I've loved for all her life. I remember her pain as she struggled to tell loved ones-she was so relieved to tell us. It pained me to see her suffer-because I knew for a long time, but for some reason she wasn't talking yet. It was such a burden lifted from her when she told us. Some older members of the family seemed a bit uncomfortable, but they still loved her.

I know the heartache one lives with when he/she can't be who they really are, without a lot of trouble. I so admire Chaz for his efforts to speak for those who are not ready to speak yet. I respect him for doing what he is doing, despite all the backlash-he is a trooper. I'm glad he's living his life as he wants. Everyone deserves that much.

Pat S

:tyou:

And many thanks for this - it's so true. Not all are ready to speak - many times because of the fear of losing those closest to them - those they love the most. How they suffer - heartache and depression - not because of who they are, but because they can't be who they are knowing who their loved ones need them to be. They fear living as their authentic selves, (many times for good reason given their family dynamic) - but just as many times - they suffer needlessly.

It's getting better. And this IS Chaz's mission. To be a familiar public face for gender identity choices & related struggles. He's a logical choice - so many in his mother's generation knew him as her little girl. He is a public example of someone you welcomed into your home - someone you "knew" - who is willing to share his journey.

And he's doing a great job at that. What a nice, humble, honest, earnest gentleman he appears to be. IMO, the world will enjoy getting to know him. And in doing so, he's bound to encourage many to change their life experience for the better. :thumb:

Gosh, I hope Lacy can whip him into shape so he can stay on the show as long as possible and accomplish as much as he can as a goodwill ambassador for LGBTQ/gender identity education.

Emma Peel

09-24-2011, 02:33 PM

How many psychological disorders do we know of where surgery is the answer?

Most times, psychological disorders are treated with medication and counseling.

Wouldn't it make more sense to try to get to the bottom of why someone has this phychological disorder and work on treating the MIND?

Wouldn't major surgery to change your physical self be kind of ineffecient in treating a mental condition? I think the answer is yes. And I think there is a lot of info out there that supports my opinion.

This is just an example, before anyone says anything about the race issue, it was not meant to be racist in any way.... Just an example...

If I had a disorder where I felt I was a black girl trapped in a white girl's body, would I have surgery to change the color of my skin? Or would I get help to find out why I felt that way and try to change the way I feel?

IMO you don't use surgery to mask or treat a mental disorder.

What the heck does that mean - to have a disorder where you felt you were a black girl trapped in a white girl's body? :waitasec: What on earth?

As preposterous as that analogy is, you can't have surgery to change the color of your skin. May I recommend you simply bake it or fake bake it.
Or maybe we ban that?

More analogies:

Plenty of people have surgery to change physical characteristics that are a source of difficulty for them & their personal/emotional/social health. We have bariatric surgery for emotional eaters. And liposuction. And orthodontics - which parents push on their unsuspecting 10/11 year olds lest they have a mouthful of unpretty. Unnecessary and shameful that. ;) And rhinoplasty, facelifts, ear-pinning, breast implants, buttocks implants, six-pack implants for those with low self-esteem? Ban that.

And plenty of people who take emotion-altering and/or hormone augmenting/suppressing drugs to get through the days of their difficult lives. Ban that too.

Kimberlyd125

09-26-2011, 10:20 AM

What the heck does that mean - to have a disorder where you felt you were a black girl trapped in a white girl's body? :waitasec: What on earth?

As preposterous as that analogy is, you can't have surgery to change the color of your skin. May I recommend you simply bake it or fake bake it.
Or maybe we ban that?

More analogies:

Plenty of people have surgery to change physical characteristics that are a source of difficulty for them & their personal/emotional/social health. We have bariatric surgery for emotional eaters. And liposuction. And orthodontics - which parents push on their unsuspecting 10/11 year olds lest they have a mouthful of unpretty. Unnecessary and shameful that. ;) And rhinoplasty, facelifts, ear-pinning, breast implants, buttocks implants, six-pack implants for those with low self-esteem? Ban that.

And plenty of people who take emotion-altering and/or hormone augmenting/suppressing drugs to get through the days of their difficult lives. Ban that too.

Emma, I knew you would have an issue with my example.
:smile:

I was born white. No matter how much I may want to be black, I can't.
I can tan, I can use bronzer. But, my race would not change.

Can't change your race and you can't change what sex you are by operations.

That's my point.

Kimberlyd125

09-26-2011, 10:29 AM

<modsnip>

Wee wee'd up? Yes, I guess in these times where bullying has exacted such a tragic and irreversible price as to be costing young people their lives, I do tend to beat my head in frustration when I see people blithely banter about "just opinions" when those "opinions" are actually cloaked in bigoted speech. Chaz Bono is different. He is not deviant. He is an actual living, breathing, human being with feelings, worth etc.....not a circus freak. As adults, lets lead by example and accept people for who they are. DWTS did not make a grand announcement, "Introducing, Chaz Bono, transgendered individual!!!!" The only way children know about his circumstances is from parents/adults allowing them to view adult content whether it be on TV, radio, internet, newspapers and railing about it in their presence. By virtue of their parents/adults negative, disbelieving response, they are being indoctrinated to view people such as Chaz Bono as spectacles to be analyzed and investigated with suspicion. Why do that? If I were to watch the show with my son, he would recognize Chaz Bono as a man, there would be no question on his part, and therefore, no controversy. He would never know Chaz changed his gender unless I told him or exposed him to adult content. I just can't believe it is 2011 and these kind of debates are raging on. We really need more division amongst the human race???? Really???? About whether someone identifies themselves as male or female???

BBM

Yes they did.

Before Chaz danced her first dance, there was a clip stating the fact that Chaz was the first transgendered person on the show.

There was an announcement.

TrackerSam

09-26-2011, 02:16 PM

Or maybe we ban that?

More analogies:
Ban that.

Ban that too.

Who is calling for the banning of anything? It seems like when you can't support a point you imagine a new one. No one here is in a position to bully anyone. No one here is in a position to deny anything to anyone. It's called the 'straw man'. It's where you make something up and then argue against it.
You can't change your gender and you can't change your sex. You can crossdress. You can affect the mannerisms of desired gender. You can change your name, but you will never, no matter how many operations or chemicals you pump into yourself, be able to change your gender.

Emma Peel

09-26-2011, 02:46 PM

Emma, I knew you would have an issue with my example.
:smile:

I was born white. No matter how much I may want to be black, I can't.
I can tan, I can use bronzer. But, my race would not change.

Can't change your race and you can't change what sex you are by operations.

That's my point.

You made me chuckle with your comment that you "knew" that I'd have issues with your example of being a black girl trapped in a white girl's body. LOL. :)

Thanks for further explaining why you chose the "you can't change your race" analogy. As you probably already knew, I still have issue with that statement. :) And the analogy of race & sex in your argument.

A couple of points:

1) Actually, there may be hope for your "black girl born trapped in white girl's body" yet. If you have one drop of ancestral blood in your background that is black - you can race-identify as black - here in the USA. It's called the one-drop rule. And it's unique to the US.

By the way, virtually no other country in the world uses any such "one-drop" rule to determine race. Just the US. :sigh:

2) Race is not a biological construct so much as a human-invented construct.

3) Most of the world - most humans - are not of pure "race", and, biologically speaking, chromosomal analysis supports people's ideas of their "racial identities" and "ethnic identities" much less than their "sex identity male/female". The concept of "identifying one's race" can be rather subjective. Consequently, race identity is frequently in shades along the continuum (kind of like gender identity). :) In other parts of the world, (Europe, for example) people identify with the ethnicity and culture they were raised in rather than the shade of their skin, or their other physical characteristics.

Not to mention, white women give birth to black babies - and vice-versa - quite often. In the US, are these babies black? One-drop says yes - certainly. However, if these mulatto babies are overseas, they can claim to be whatever race they please. ;)

So, if people can change their racial identity depending upon the country the are standing in, IMO, it's an erroneous argument that you can't change your race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

More to the point, the "you can't change your race" analogy really doesn't work here either. Mostly because until a person has done some deep ancestral chromosome analysis of their racial bloodlines -- they are merely just guessing what "race" they are anyway. :sigh:

:)

As for the "you can't change your race" concept, it's been chromosomally proven that all humans of all races are biological descendants of the Bushman tribe.

I suppose, it could be argued that (technically at least in the US, adhering to the one-drop rule), we're all black - the "race" of the Bushman. Can't change that.

And it could even explain that black girl trapped in a white girl's body feeling...

and :cow:

Kimberlyd125

09-26-2011, 03:14 PM

Leave it to you Emma.

Ok, forget my example.

I think I made my point as far as what I was using it to make.

My head is swimming.

You don't have to agree with me. We can disagree.

I stand 100% by my original opinion on this thread... No amount of surgery can make Chaz or anyone else on this planet another sex.
No matter how legal it is.

Ta Ta for now.

:crazy:

Emma Peel

09-26-2011, 03:48 PM

Leave it to you Emma.

Ok, forget my example.

I think I made my point as far as what I was using it to make.

My head is swimming.

You don't have to agree with me. We can disagree.

I stand 100% by my original opinion on this thread... No amount of surgery can make Chaz or anyone else on this planet another sex.
No matter how legal it is.

Ta Ta for now.

:crazy:

LOL yes, I know that spinning feeling too. We often very agreeably disagree, especially when the room starts to spin, and so we shall.

Except I think even Chaz might agree with your position that he was born with female DNA ... and ... that nothing (that we've invented yet) will ever change that.

See ya later! :seeya:

Lifted

09-28-2011, 12:55 AM

Who is calling for the banning of anything? It seems like when you can't support a point you imagine a new one. No one here is in a position to bully anyone. No one here is in a position to deny anything to anyone. It's called the 'straw man'. It's where you make something up and then argue against it.

You must have missed this quote
(snipped by me)

I personally think this kind of procedure should be against the law.

What is it called when you accuse someone of making up something, when they didn't really make it up at all? Is that a straw man as well?

Emma Peel

09-28-2011, 01:47 AM

Whoa, Chaz had a rough go of it with his knees, the steps, and the judges this round.

Just wanted to say: Yay Chaz! for making it through the cut. Close call, but nicely averted. :thumb:

Don't give up the faith & keep enjoying yourself!

Chili Fries

09-28-2011, 12:59 PM

I see discussions about this type of thing often on the web and, like this one, they are usually lacking in real science.

Gender (or sex differences) don't depend on one thing. It's also important to note that gender can be seen as a continuum from male to female. Your genes are the basis for development, but it's not like they are such strict controllers. We realize this because even though we have the same amount and types of chromosomes, people can be very different. There are people with XX sex chromosomes who develop as males and people with XY sex chromosomes who develop as females.

Once a human is developing all kinds of confusing gender characteristics can be formed. We all know that different hormone levels are one distinguishing characteristic of males and females but we also know that those hormone levels can be all over the map. There are also ambiguous reproductive organs, which include many different kinds of ovotestes that can't be characterized as definitely female or definitely male.

Science is also beginning to understand that the sex a person's mind identifies with is a real thing, which depends on the other stuff I've mentioned above but also may involve something in the brain itself.

So...gender and sex differences are very, very complicated and cannot be simplified to one or two things. It's easy to see how it's tough for people who scientifically and medically fall in these grey areas have a very tough time figuring things out. It also may be natural that the brain needs to make an instinctive choice, which is probably not going to match all the different physical distinctions going on in the body. Anyway, the point is that it's important to look beyond just man and woman when thinking of sex differences because that's the way things really are in nature.

smart blonde

09-28-2011, 01:35 PM

I see discussions about this type of thing often on the web and, like this one, they are usually lacking in real science.

Gender (or sex differences) don't depend on one thing. It's also important to note that gender can be seen as a continuum from male to female. Your genes are the basis for development, but it's not like they are such strict controllers. We realize this because even though we have the same amount and types of chromosomes, people can be very different. There are people with XX sex chromosomes who develop as males and people with XY sex chromosomes who develop as females.

Once a human is developing all kinds of confusing gender characteristics can be formed. We all know that different hormone levels are one distinguishing characteristic of males and females but we also know that those hormone levels can be all over the map. There are also ambiguous reproductive organs, which include many different kinds of ovotestes that can't be characterized as definitely female or definitely male.

Science is also beginning to understand that the sex a person's mind identifies with is a real thing, which depends on the other stuff I've mentioned above but also may involve something in the brain itself.

So...gender and sex differences are very, very complicated and cannot be simplified to one or two things. It's easy to see how it's tough for people who scientifically and medically fall in these grey areas have a very tough time figuring things out. It also may be natural that the brain needs to make an instinctive choice, which is probably not going to match all the different physical distinctions going on in the body. Anyway, the point is that it's important to look beyond just man and woman when thinking of sex differences because that's the way things really are in nature.
These are some brilliant points. Thank you so much for this post!

I was coming here to post this- a quote from Chaz Bono, in his book, "Transition: The Story of How I Became A Man".....

"Most people don't the the difference between 'gender' and 'gender identity'. Gender is the sex that one is born as, and for most of us, that sex is either female or male. Your gender identity, however, is based on feelings, and not biology. I like to say your gender identity is between your ears, not your legs".

Here is his book, available at Amazon (also available for Kindle):
Amazon.com: Transition: The Story of How I Became a Man (9780525952145): Chaz Bono: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41W5FToQq%2BL.@@AMEPARAM@@41W5FToQq%2BL

Chili Fries

09-28-2011, 02:19 PM

These are some brilliant points. Thank you so much for this post!

I was coming here to post this- a quote from Chaz Bono, in his book, "Transition: The Story of How I Became A Man".....

"Most people don't the the difference between 'gender' and 'gender identity'. Gender is the sex that one is born as, and for most of us, that sex is either female or male. Your gender identity, however, is based on feelings, and not biology. I like to say your gender identity is between your ears, not your legs".

Here is his book, available at Amazon (also available for Kindle):
Amazon.com: Transition: The Story of How I Became a Man (9780525952145): Chaz Bono: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Transition-Story-How-Became-Man/dp/0525952144/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t)

The key words are "most of us". As I posted above, there are still many people whose chromosomes don't match the sex they developed into, or who can't be defined as a man or woman. The estimate is that 10 million people worldwide have this condition. Then add in all the other possible combinations of hormone, reproductive organ or gender feelings ("between your ears", as Chaz says) and you get a lot of confused people.

This has developed into a political debate for Chaz and many people who struggle with these issues, understandably so. But that's different than what medical science has known for a long time. What a lot of people probably don't realize is that historically it has been common for doctors to perform reassignment surgery on babies, sometimes without even telling the parents. They decide what gender the child should be solely based on the look of the external genitals, not taking into account internal reproductive organs and hormone levels. This has caused many people to grow up knowing that something is wrong without realizing what happened. It's something that's motivated gender activists, they say that the surgery should wait until the child is old enough to make the decision about whether to have surgery on the ambiguous genitals.

So Chaz may be a person whose mind identifies as a different gender than his body (and science is beginning to understand what a powerful reality that is), but there are many physical ambiguities involving sex beyond that. It's not true that someone is born either a male or female, far from it.

TrackerSam

09-28-2011, 03:21 PM

I was coming here to post this- a quote from Chaz Bono, in his book, "Transition: The Story of How I Became A Man".....

"Most people don't the the difference between 'gender' and 'gender identity'. Gender is the sex that one is born as, and for most of us, that sex is either female or male. Your gender identity, however, is based on feelings, and not biology. I like to say your gender identity is between your ears, not your legs".

[/url]

Chaz couldn't possibly know what "most people" think about it so it's an erroneous assumption on Chaz's part to begin with, plus it's not even about Chaz Bono. The argument isn't 'gender v gender identity'. This is the strawman argument. You cannot change gender. You cannot take a scalpel and carve a cat out of a dog's body, though the law may legally let you get away with calling your dog a cat. You cannot pin the tail on the donkey and call it a moose just because the donkey is feeling moosey. Creating a cavity between one's legs and calling it a vagina is as much a lie as stuffing a rolled up pair of sox down your pants and calling it a penis.
You may recall this story -Carved by a woodcarver named Geppetto in a small Italian village, he was created as a wooden puppet, but dreamt of becoming a real boy.

Kimberlyd125

09-28-2011, 04:44 PM

Not sure how anybody can say that it's not true that people are born either male or female.
:waitasec:

Chili Fries

09-28-2011, 04:58 PM

Not sure how anybody can say that it's not true that people are born either male or female.
:waitasec:

Because it's not true, doctors have know it for a long time. They are the experts who have experience with this.

Sex differences have been observed and studied for a long time and it's a fact that not everyone is born distinctly male or female. Doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else feels about this, the reality is that it's not black and white, there is a lot of grey area when calling someone a male or a female.

So what do you do if someone is not definitely male or female? They either live as an in-between or they get medical procedures to make them fit better in one of the two categories.

Kimberlyd125

09-28-2011, 08:10 PM

Craziest thing I've ever heard of in my life.

I know there are some babies that have a genetic defect that parents must choose for them. But thank God, that's not very common.

MissJames

09-28-2011, 08:21 PM

You can't have too much love in this world .Loving couples,families,births,adoptions ,celebrations.
That's all that really matters.

JUST MY OPINION

MissJames

09-28-2011, 08:25 PM

That's true. I trained with a mom who has two kids born with male and female. One is a "boy" and one is a "girl". They're young adults now. They were part of a study and received health care at NIH.

MissJames

09-28-2011, 08:34 PM

People dye their hair ,straighten their hair,curl their hair ,cut their hair ,change their names, paint their faces ,fingers and toes.
Wigs,toupee's,breast augmentation,breast reduction,shaving.
Pierced ears ,tattoos, face lifts ,colored contacts,and tanning booths,weight lifting and diets,
all because a person wants to change something about themselves.

askfornina

09-28-2011, 10:55 PM

just a heads up for anyone who is interested, "becoming chaz" is coming on OWN in an hour.

Prancy

09-29-2011, 11:39 AM

just a heads up for anyone who is interested, "becoming chaz" is coming on OWN in an hour.

If gender identity disorder is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition, it is a mental disorder.

IMO it should be treated as such.

ETA: IMO, mental disorders should be treated by a psychiatrist, not a surgeon.

MissJames

09-30-2011, 06:22 PM

If gender identity disorder is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition, it is a mental disorder.

IMO it should be treated as such.

ETA: IMO, mental disorders should be treated by a psychiatrist, not a surgeon.

I believe before transgender treatment or surgery it's generally required that the person be evaluated and receive extensive counseling . Years before the surgery can be done.

I just don't think the people who are going to such great lengths are doing it on a whim. We hear time and again about the suffering and depression they have endured .
I don't want anyone to suffer that way if they can change it and they WANT to make the change.
It's their right .
This isn't about sex or perversion. It's no different ,IMO than someone who really wants to be a musician but they are forced to be a lawyer. You can be miserable or do something about it and be happy.
Life's too short.
JMO

MissJames

09-30-2011, 06:32 PM

Well, since you asked. :smile:

All those things you listed do not require the mutilation of your sexual organs and pump your body full of hormones to treat a psychological disorder.

JMO

Many are considered to be mutilation by others,like piercings,tattoos and breast augmentation.
There was a time in the United States,not that long ago, that it was scandalous ,blasphemous,for a woman to cut her hair.
It was supposed to be her crowning glory and dishonored God if she cut it. Only her husband was to see it worn down .

IVF and drugs to stimulate the ovaries can be considered unnatural,also. People (not me) can and have used the argument that it's playing God. Cuts both ways ,IMO.

Kimberlyd125

09-30-2011, 06:36 PM

I believe before transgender treatment or surgery it's generally required that the person be evaluated and receive extensive counseling . Years before the surgery can be done.

I just don't think the people who are going to such great lengths are doing it on a whim. We hear time and again about the suffering and depression they have endured .
I don't want anyone to suffer that way if they can change it and they WANT to make the change.
It's their right .
This isn't about sex or perversion. It's no different ,IMO than someone who really wants to be a musician but they are forced to be a lawyer. You can be miserable or do something about it and be happy.
Life's too short.
JMO

Have you checked the suicide rates post op?
The depression does not end because of the surgery.

Depression is a mental condition as well. Surgery does not change it.

Kimberlyd125

09-30-2011, 06:42 PM

Many are considered to be mutilation by others,like piercings,tattoos and breast augmentation.
There was a time in the United States,not that long ago, that it was scandalous ,blasphemous,for a woman to cut her hair.
It was supposed to be her crowning glory and dishonored God if she cut it. Only her husband was to see it worn down .

IVF and drugs to stimulate the ovaries can be considered unnatural,also. People (not me) can and have used the argument that it's playing God. Cuts both ways ,IMO.

Buy what I said was mutilation of sexual organs.

To me, that's not acceptable.

IVF and fertility medicine is in no way comparable to sex change operations.

Implanting embryos or using a drug to induce ovulation is not mutilating sexual organs or trying to treat a mental disorder.

Emma Peel

09-30-2011, 08:24 PM

If gender identity disorder is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition, it is a mental disorder.

IMO it should be treated as such.

ETA: IMO, mental disorders should be treated by a psychiatrist, not a surgeon.

The very issue here is that people who are transgendered experience drastic misalignment between the emotional and the physical self.

More simply put - the brain is wired as female, and their male body parts don't match their brain.

Or, as in Chaz's case, vice-versa

As to the BBM above ... SAYS WHO? (i.e. link please.)

Oh nevermind.

Since no link was provided, I googled & found plenty of medical articles with the BBM phrase above in it discussing both psychotherapy and gender reassignment as treatment options.

Here one of the links - I'm not pulling out quotes - it's best read in entire context:

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Gender-identity-disorder.html

Clearly, (and as described in all transgendered person's experience), the process of working to resolve gender identity disorders involves medically appropriate psychotherapy. Even physical gender-reassignment, (including hormones and perhaps surgeries), when determined to be the best option, occurs with patients who have followed protocol, and who have already devoted significant time in psychiatric counseling.

Who's to say that altering body parts to match the way the brain is wired is not the better alternative to living a lie - in a body that betrays who you feel you really are?

I think the greater point here is that the resolution for this misalignment rightfully belongs to the individual - the transgender identified person, as counseled by his/her doctor and/or family. No one else needs to be involved in that choice, nor does anyone else's opinion, beliefs, or degree of discomfiture with the concept matter here.

Why should it? Perhaps we should be asking - what's the motivation for wanting to prevent these people from getting the treatment they and their doctors feel is the best solution for their situation? :dunno:

:cow:

octobermoon

09-30-2011, 09:52 PM

The very issue here is that people who are transgendered experience drastic misalignment between the emotional and the physical self.

More simply put - the brain is wired as female, and their male body parts don't match their brain.

Or, as in Chaz's case, vice-versa

As to the BBM above ... SAYS WHO? (i.e. link please.)

Oh nevermind.

Since no link was provided, I googled & found plenty of medical articles with the BBM phrase above in it discussing both psychotherapy and gender reassignment as treatment options.

Here one of the links - I'm not pulling out quotes - it's best read in entire context:

Clearly, (and as described in all transgendered person's experience), the process of working to resolve gender identity disorders involves medically appropriate psychotherapy. Even physical gender-reassignment, (including hormones and perhaps surgeries), when determined to be the best option, occurs with patients who have followed protocol, and who have already devoted significant time in psychiatric counseling.

Who's to say that altering body parts to match the way the brain is wired is not the better alternative to living a lie - in a body that betrays who you feel you really are?

I think the greater point here is that the resolution for this misalignment rightfully belongs to the individual - the transgender identified person, as counseled by his/her doctor and/or family. No one else needs to be involved in that choice, nor does anyone else's opinion, beliefs, or degree of discomfiture with the concept matter here.

Why should it? Perhaps we should be asking - what's the motivation for wanting to prevent these people from getting the treatment they and their doctors feel is the best solution for their situation? :dunno:

:cow:

I agree.

What's the difference between straight women and men who use surgery to make themselves to feel more whole? Women who have breast reduction because (a family member said she felt like a freak)..... fill in the blanks. Men who take testosteron shots or pills.

If it makes ya happy and you aren't hurting another I say be happy.

IYKWIM (and I hope you do, on cold meds :crazy:)

I'll try to make my point better tomorrow.

MissJames

09-30-2011, 10:42 PM

Buy what I said was mutilation of sexual organs.

To me, that's not acceptable.

IVF and fertility medicine is in no way comparable to sex change operations.

Implanting embryos or using a drug to induce ovulation is not mutilating sexual organs or trying to treat a mental disorder.
BBM
And you have the right to that opinion.

I don't consider it mutilation any more than a breast reduction is for someone who is embarrassed by their oversized set that also gives them back pain.
Why isn't IVF comparable to a sex change?

IVF was very controversial when it was first made available. There were horrible accusations ,IMO. Playing God,defying nature ,test tube babies created in a lab, etc.....
There was a huge media frenzy about the first "test tube baby" ,Louise B.,in England. She was considered freakish by many .
Now it's just a way to have a baby.

What makes them comparable ? In both cases hormones are commonly used to get a desired result .
Also,the criticism ,the judgement people make,that because it's not what God or nature intended ,it must be wrong. The same.

But in both cases it makes the person doing it happy,fulfilled ,normal. The feelings are the same.The criticism of each procedure is the same.
The hurt is the same.

Just my opinion.

MissJames

09-30-2011, 10:54 PM

Have you checked the suicide rates post op?
The depression does not end because of the surgery.

I know depression well. That's why I hope more people will start to understand and accept transgendered individuals. It must be horrible to feel so judged and criticized for trying to be yourself.I don't doubt the suicide rate is high. They are treated horribly .

octobermoon

09-30-2011, 10:57 PM

BBM
And you have the right to that opinion.

I don't consider it mutilation any more than a breast reduction is for someone who is embarrassed by their oversized set that also gives them back pain.
Why isn't IVF comparable to a sex change?

IVF was very controversial when it was first made available. There were horrible accusations ,IMO. Playing God,defying nature ,test tube babies created in a lab, etc.....
There was a huge media frenzy about the first "test tube baby" ,Louise B.,in England. She was considered freakish by many .
Now it's just a way to have a baby.

What makes them comparable ? In both cases hormones are commonly used to get a desired result . Also,the criticism ,the judgement people make,that because it's not what God or nature intended ,it must be wrong. The same.

But in both cases it makes the person doing it happy,fulfilled ,normal. The feelings are the same.The criticism of each procedure is the same.
The hurt is the same.

Just my opinion.

I am fighting right now using estrogen therapy for hot flashes, if I use them am I wrong? I hope I can endure or better yet my family can endure LOL. Cranky here.

MissJames

09-30-2011, 11:02 PM

I am fighting right now using estrogen therapy for hot flashes, if I use them am I wrong? I hope I can endure or better yet my family can endure LOL. Cranky here.

I explained why I think they are completely different and not related at all.

No one has to agree with me.

But it's my opinion.

1000Sparks

10-01-2011, 09:49 AM

Chastity was born a girl. That was God who planned it that way. She is making a fool out of herself going on tv.

On Boubon street in New Orleans these cross dressers are all over. They freak me out...but that's for entertainment.

Chastity is not entertainment. Wonder truly what mom thinks.

Donjeta

10-01-2011, 01:17 PM

What if God planned for Chaz to be born transgendered? Maybe that's why his brain is hardwired differently. It might be God has a lesson about accepting difference to teach us. As long as we continue to treat people as freaks we are causing unnecessary suffering. It's easy to be depressed in such a situation.

I don't believe it's as straightforward as "born a girl", or "born a boy" for transgendered individuals. Embryonic development is not an either-or situation in this regard, sometimes it's an in-between thing. The chromosomes may say you're one thing but if there is something unusual going on with the hormone levels, receptors and other factors that play a role you may develop differently than what your chromosomes say. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is an example of this.
Androgen insensitivity syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Androgen_receptor_3-d_model.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Androgen_receptor_3-d_model.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/1/10/Androgen_receptor_3-d_model.jpg

Another example could be homosexual identification. It has been shown that boys with older brothers are a little more likely to be homosexual and it is theorized that this is because the hormonal environment in the mother's womb is changed because of previous male pregnancies. The mother might be immunized to certain antigens important in the masculinization of the brain.

IMO it is conceivable that transgender identity may develop because of a similar situation. The sex organs are fully developed earlier than the brain so if there is something going on a bit later in the pregnancy it might not cause a genital abnormality but it might cause the brain to be hardwired differently and lead to a different gender identity. Usually transgender people say they've always known they're different somehow and I see it as a sign that it's probably something they were born with.

If I'm on the right track it's a gross oversimplification to say that a transgendered person is a boy, or a girl, when it might be that their genitals are one thing and their brain is another. IMO the brain is more important than the genitals in determining who we are but that's just me.

IMO talking about depression confuses the issue a little. Anybody can be depressed, regardless of gender identification, and while some depression may be related to the trials one faces as a transgender individual it's a different disorder and one can't IMO conclude that it was wrong to do the sex change operation just because it doesn't solve all the problems. If someone jumps from a building trying to commit suicide and breaks his leg we wouldn't say the doctors should not have operated the leg just because the person continues to be depressed and kills himself soon thereafter. Even if the depression and suicide rates continue to be high among people who have undergone sex change, it is not necessarily indicative that it was wrong for them to have the operation. IMO it may be indicative that depression in that group needs to be screened and treated more actively and that we as a society need to change so we don't make their situation worse by discriminating against them.

If I took part in Dancing with the Stars I would be voted off the first thing because I'm a total nobody and an appalling dancer to boot but I probably wouldn't cause a collective sigh of disgust because of who I am and people wouldn't start to argue about my identity, thinking they know better, wondering if my mother can really love me because I'm such a freak.

Emma Peel

10-01-2011, 02:42 PM

Chastity was born a girl. That was God who planned it that way. She is making a fool out of herself going on tv.

On Boubon street in New Orleans these cross dressers are all over. They freak me out...but that's for entertainment.

Chastity is not entertainment. Wonder truly what mom thinks.

BBM

:waitasec: What I wonder, truly, is how anyone can even know what God thinks about this. :innocent:

AFAIK, the Supreme Being (in the collective global-religions sense) hasn't actually said anything specifically about Chaz or transgenders. In any language. :dunno:

:cow:

gitana1

10-01-2011, 03:05 PM

What if God planned for Chaz to be born transgendered? Maybe that's why his brain is hardwired differently. It might be God has a lesson about accepting difference to teach us. As long as we continue to treat people as freaks we are causing unnecessary suffering. It's easy to be depressed in such a situation.

I don't believe it's as straightforward as "born a girl", or "born a boy" for transgendered individuals. Embryonic development is not an either-or situation in this regard, sometimes it's an in-between thing. The chromosomes may say you're one thing but if there is something unusual going on with the hormone levels, receptors and other factors that play a role you may develop differently than what your chromosomes say. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is an example of this.
Androgen insensitivity syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome)

Another example could be homosexual identification. It has been shown that boys with older brothers are a little more likely to be homosexual and it is theorized that this is because the hormonal environment in the mother's womb is changed because of previous male pregnancies. The mother might be immunized to certain antigens important in the masculinization of the brain.

IMO it is conceivable that transgender identity may develop because of a similar situation. The sex organs are fully developed earlier than the brain so if there is something going on a bit later in the pregnancy it might not cause a genital abnormality but it might cause the brain to be hardwired differently and lead to a different gender identity. Usually transgender people say they've always known they're different somehow and I see it as a sign that it's probably something they were born with.

If I'm on the right track it's a gross oversimplification to say that a transgendered person is a boy, or a girl, when it might be that their genitals are one thing and their brain is another. IMO the brain is more important than the genitals in determining who we are but that's just me.

IMO talking about depression confuses the issue a little. Anybody can be depressed, regardless of gender identification, and while some depression may be related to the trials one faces as a transgender individual it's a different disorder and one can't IMO conclude that it was wrong to do the sex change operation just because it doesn't solve all the problems. If someone jumps from a building trying to commit suicide and breaks his leg we wouldn't say the doctors should not have operated the leg just because the person continues to be depressed and kills himself soon thereafter. Even if the depression and suicide rates continue to be high among people who have undergone sex change, it is not necessarily indicative that it was wrong for them to have the operation. IMO it may be indicative that depression in that group needs to be screened and treated more actively and that we as a society need to change so we don't make their situation worse by discriminating against them.

If I took part in Dancing with the Stars I would be voted off the first thing because I'm a total nobody and an appalling dancer to boot but I probably wouldn't cause a collective sigh of disgust because of who I am and people wouldn't start to argue about my identity, thinking they know better, wondering if my mother can really love me because I'm such a freak.

Very well-written, powerful post.

There was a CNN article recently on transgendered children. That article led to another merely because of the tremendous amount of rage-filled comments by posters. Why?:

The discomfort toward transgender people comes from challenging conventions, said one academic who focuses on social attitudes and behavior.
In American culture, sex and gender belong in one of two categories, said Diane Everett, professor of sociology at Stetson University in DeLand, Florida. As soon as humans are born, the first thing people ask is whether the baby is a boy or girl.
"We tend as a society to put people into boxes," she said. "Someone who is transgender is not only crossing gender boundaries, but also defying them. If people can't relate to you as an either-or, they have a hard time relating to you in their general comfort level."http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/30/health/transgender-discrimination/

It is very common to hate that which one does not understand or cannot categorize. Hence, incredible sea creatures were simply killed by seafarers instead of studied to determine what they were. It reminds me of the South Park episodes where one of the kids' uncles is always trying to kill things when he doesn't know what they are: http://www.hark.com/clips/vnlyfmtsjl-lets-kill-it

"Jimbo:"Are we sure it's Scuzzlebutt?" Stan:"Does it have Patrick Duffy for a leg?" Jimbo:"Well I can't tell. Let's kill it!""

Patience

10-01-2011, 03:07 PM

I :heartbeat: Chaz. He is an inspiration and I just adore him. I grew up watching his parents and I think he is a fantastic person and a wonderful human being and I wish him all the best on DWTS.

:yourock:

PAJS

10-01-2011, 04:42 PM

Patience-I so agree with you. I admire him for stepping forward, difficult as it may be, and being a voice for others.

PAJS

MissJames

10-01-2011, 10:48 PM

What if God planned for Chaz to be born transgendered? Maybe that's why his brain is hardwired differently. It might be God has a lesson about accepting difference to teach us. As long as we continue to treat people as freaks we are causing unnecessary suffering. It's easy to be depressed in such a situation.

I don't believe it's as straightforward as "born a girl", or "born a boy" for transgendered individuals. Embryonic development is not an either-or situation in this regard, sometimes it's an in-between thing. The chromosomes may say you're one thing but if there is something unusual going on with the hormone levels, receptors and other factors that play a role you may develop differently than what your chromosomes say. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is an example of this.
Androgen insensitivity syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome)

Another example could be homosexual identification. It has been shown that boys with older brothers are a little more likely to be homosexual and it is theorized that this is because the hormonal environment in the mother's womb is changed because of previous male pregnancies. The mother might be immunized to certain antigens important in the masculinization of the brain.

IMO it is conceivable that transgender identity may develop because of a similar situation. The sex organs are fully developed earlier than the brain so if there is something going on a bit later in the pregnancy it might not cause a genital abnormality but it might cause the brain to be hardwired differently and lead to a different gender identity. Usually transgender people say they've always known they're different somehow and I see it as a sign that it's probably something they were born with.

If I'm on the right track it's a gross oversimplification to say that a transgendered person is a boy, or a girl, when it might be that their genitals are one thing and their brain is another. IMO the brain is more important than the genitals in determining who we are but that's just me.

IMO talking about depression confuses the issue a little. Anybody can be depressed, regardless of gender identification, and while some depression may be related to the trials one faces as a transgender individual it's a different disorder and one can't IMO conclude that it was wrong to do the sex change operation just because it doesn't solve all the problems. If someone jumps from a building trying to commit suicide and breaks his leg we wouldn't say the doctors should not have operated the leg just because the person continues to be depressed and kills himself soon thereafter. Even if the depression and suicide rates continue to be high among people who have undergone sex change, it is not necessarily indicative that it was wrong for them to have the operation. IMO it may be indicative that depression in that group needs to be screened and treated more actively and that we as a society need to change so we don't make their situation worse by discriminating against them.

If I took part in Dancing with the Stars I would be voted off the first thing because I'm a total nobody and an appalling dancer to boot but I probably wouldn't cause a collective sigh of disgust because of who I am and people wouldn't start to argue about my identity, thinking they know better, wondering if my mother can really love me because I'm such a freak.

That's fascinating . Thanks for digging that up.
I've always believed there's a physiological reason for homosexuality and transgender identity.
I've read a lot about ADHD and a book called "The Edison Gene,the Gift of the Hunter Child" includes a lot of information about what can cause changes in the brain of a developing fetus.
Stress ,in particular ,releases hormones (cortisol? ) that can change the baby's brain.
So much we are still learning and much we'll never know.JMO

Gozgals

10-04-2011, 06:02 AM

I think it takes a lot of guts to get on the show like Chaz did but i think his dancing days are numbered. He is not doing well anymore and his injuries are preventing him from progressing forward. I do not think he should be kept on the show because of who he is either. That would not be fair.

Goz

Emma Peel

10-10-2011, 11:08 PM

Awwwww... Chaz had a much better week. "Feeling Stronger...."

And with his mom - his whole family - in the audience - so genuinely proud! Have to say, IMO, it was really precious - and a pretty great performance - best yet - for him. There's a chance he'll survive the next cut - he's certainly working hard. :thumb:

Liora

10-10-2011, 11:22 PM

What confuses me is his insistence that his breasts be augmented to resemble a man's (because he really detested having female breasts), but he's ok with keeping his female genitalia, which, to me, far more identify him as a woman. I've seen many men with large breasts, but none with female genitals.

I only read the first page so I don't know if this has already been answered, but the FtM genital surgery doesn't "work" terribly well. They aren't able to make it function anything close to the real thing and usually it reduces sexual pleasure by quite a bit and involved pumps and things. The testosterone they take apparently changes the genitals to look a lot more male without surgery but I haven't actually seen it. My dad's a plastic surgeon and explained it to me - it's like all plastic surgery in that it is much easier to take away than to add. Same reason rhinoplasty works better on caucasians than on asians.

essies

10-11-2011, 02:49 AM

Awwwww... Chaz had a much better week. "Feeling Stronger...."

And with his mom - his whole family - in the audience - so genuinely proud! Have to say, IMO, it was really precious - and a pretty great performance - best yet - for him. There's a chance he'll survive the next cut - he's certainly working hard. :thumb:

Chaz is just precious. He's trying so hard and seeing Cher so proud of him-it brought tears to my eyes!!:fence:

Flossie JMO

10-11-2011, 11:10 AM

I only read the first page so I don't know if this has already been answered, but the FtM genital surgery doesn't "work" terribly well. They aren't able to make it function anything close to the real thing and usually it reduces sexual pleasure by quite a bit and involved pumps and things. The testosterone they take apparently changes the genitals to look a lot more male without surgery but I haven't actually seen it. My dad's a plastic surgeon and explained it to me - it's like all plastic surgery in that it is much easier to take away than to add. Same reason rhinoplasty works better on caucasians than on asians.

I have been told the same, at the time a friend was contemplating it, there were 2 choices, an implant where one would have a "semi" at all times, the other option was an implanted pump device.

animlzrule

10-11-2011, 11:54 AM

I only read the first page so I don't know if this has already been answered, but the FtM genital surgery doesn't "work" terribly well. They aren't able to make it function anything close to the real thing and usually it reduces sexual pleasure by quite a bit and involved pumps and things. The testosterone they take apparently changes the genitals to look a lot more male without surgery but I haven't actually seen it. My dad's a plastic surgeon and explained it to me - it's like all plastic surgery in that it is much easier to take away than to add. Same reason rhinoplasty works better on caucasians than on asians.

I can certainly understand someone wanting to make their outsides match their insides though. Just from a practical standpoint...Chaz needs to use the bathroom in a public venue. He identifies, lives like and is a man. Yet, he for the time being at least, retains his female genitalia. Thank goodness for stalls in men's rooms, otherwise, what does he do??? The primary motivation for someone choosing to undergo gender reassignment surgery isn't a matter of sexual performance. Some people with unconflicted gender live for years and years without ever using their genitalia at all. :D

Kimberlyd125

10-11-2011, 07:10 PM

But non working or semi working "parts" fuel depression.

JMO

Liora

10-12-2011, 03:58 AM

I can certainly understand someone wanting to make their outsides match their insides though. Just from a practical standpoint...Chaz needs to use the bathroom in a public venue. He identifies, lives like and is a man. Yet, he for the time being at least, retains his female genitalia. Thank goodness for stalls in men's rooms, otherwise, what does he do??? The primary motivation for someone choosing to undergo gender reassignment surgery isn't a matter of sexual performance. Some people with unconflicted gender live for years and years without ever using their genitalia at all. :D

They actually make fake ones you can use for that but totally removable. I saw it on an adult toys site. Not sure if it fools anybody but most guys aren't staring in the bathroom I would assume. They also make little cardboard things for women to pee standing up but without the realistic look ... very handy for camping trips.

The Duck

10-15-2011, 06:04 PM

I only read the first page so I don't know if this has already been answered, but the FtM genital surgery doesn't "work" terribly well. They aren't able to make it function anything close to the real thing and usually it reduces sexual pleasure by quite a bit and involved pumps and things. The testosterone they take apparently changes the genitals to look a lot more male without surgery but I haven't actually seen it. My dad's a plastic surgeon and explained it to me - it's like all plastic surgery in that it is much easier to take away than to add. Same reason rhinoplasty works better on caucasians than on asians.

Do you think the testosterone made Chaz gain all that weight? It doesn't look bad on most of his body but it's too bad his belly had to be so big. I hope he didn't put the weight on on purpose. There's guys out there that are so darn proud of their big bellies.

The Duck

10-15-2011, 06:06 PM

I thought there might be another thread about Chaz somewhere after the reality program has been airing about the transformation into a male has been playing over the weekend. Chaz seems like a very nice, sensitive, humble person. He's very respectful of his mother Cher and her feelings. I watched Cher's face the other night and she was so full of pride and love for her child.

Liora

10-16-2011, 12:41 PM

Do you think the testosterone made Chaz gain all that weight? It doesn't look bad on most of his body but it's too bad his belly had to be so big. I hope he didn't put the weight on on purpose. There's guys out there that are so darn proud of their big bellies.

Probably. Women with hormone imbalances like PCOS tend to gain weight around the stomach area too. Stress probably had something to do with it too.

youshouldveknown

10-20-2011, 04:55 AM

But non working or semi working "parts" fuel depression.

JMO

Which is probably why Chaz chose to retain female genitalia.

Sexually, there are removable phallises (not sure what the plural of the word would be, but I'm trying to keep it clean) and it's been said that the female wearing the prosthetic often experiences pleasure depending on where the prostheic bears down.

Although DNA is DNA, biology is biology - calling a transgendered individual by their birth gender is very highly offensive. Like, borderline derogatory in some eyes. Even if you don't agree with transgender lifestyles, show a human being some respect.

Kimberlyd125

10-20-2011, 07:29 PM

I can not call a female "he" or a male "she".
Has nothing to do with lack of respect. I has to do with my views and beliefs.

IMO that should also be respected.

Emma Peel

10-26-2011, 01:13 AM

I can not call a female "he" or a male "she".
Has nothing to do with lack of respect. I has to do with my views and beliefs.

IMO that should also be respected.

He's just finished his very successful run on DWTS - as he said this evening during his goodbye "everyone the opportunity to get to know a different kind of man"... Chaz is not delusional. He knows he's different, and has bravely (& entertainingly) shared his experience with the world. Everyone knows Chaz has transitioned FtM, and he's very happy about being able to dance through the rest of his life as the man he now is.

When one's views and beliefs are dismissive, offensive, and invoke trivia for the sole purpose of disrespecting another's human dignity, it's difficult to command respect for them. Of course, free speech supports expressions of all sorts of views and beliefs. I don't know what else to say, except that perhaps there are some views and beliefs that good judgement and circumstance would dictate are best kept to oneself. The compulsion to refer to Chaz Bono as "she" is probably one of those circumstances. :) JMHO

Emma Peel

10-26-2011, 01:16 AM

Chaz had a great run on DWTS but it was his time to say goodbye this week. It's a good thing that the world got to know him, and his story a bit better. And YAY! to DTWS for letting Chaz dance his way into hearts everywhere. :thumb: Good run Chaz!

Allusonz

10-26-2011, 01:53 AM

How heartwarming it is for me to see so many individuals that may of known very little on this topic take the time to become informed and keep open minds.

I give Chaz Bono kudos for having the guts to take the many steps that are required and then to go public with his journey. In doing so not only is he helping himself but many others.

I hope and pray that he finds peace for himself and acceptance.

essies

10-26-2011, 02:46 AM

Chaz'z parting words on DWTS-

"I came on this show because I wanted to show America a different kind of man, and I know that if there was somebody like me on TV when I was growing up, my whole life would've been different and so I dedicate everything I did to all the people out there like me and especially the kids and teens who are struggling," he said. "You can have a wonderful great life and be successful and happy."
I'm glad he was able to experience this sort of exposure and hopefully this experience will give encouragement to others feeling trapped as tho life had played some kind of cruel joke on them. Keep on keepin' on Chaz!!!:rocker:

Melanie

10-26-2011, 03:34 AM

I'm glad Chaz ending on a happy note and really enjoyed the dance. I think the soccer gal is gonna go next week (Max's partner), then prolly Nancy.

JMO

Mel

PAJS

10-26-2011, 08:08 AM

Chaz really worked hard for this show-you could see his struggle every week. But, he never gave up, and he lasted six weeks-more than I could ever last. He did well, too. his parting words were inspiring. I know he was disappointed, but he put his disappointment aside and spoke to encourage others-what a nice way to leave the show-by leaving on such a positive note. I really admire and respect him.

Pat S

Linda7NJ

10-26-2011, 10:26 AM

And there are topics that some would rather go by their beliefs and faith about without needing to research it.

Sorry. It is what it is.

There are some topics I'm not willing to budge on or "educate" myself on. There are some topics that defy or cross lines or morality for ME.

There is "science" that can make you question everything in life. There is also a person's right to not choose to question things they believe or don't believe in.

Has nothing to do with education. Has everything to do with one's personal walk.

JMO

ETA: OT- Science told my 37 year old brother in law he would live around 2 weeks (2 wks ago) but we decided to live on Faith Hope and Love.
Today he got VERY GOOD news. He's not going anywhere anytime soon. Thank God.
I believe sometimes the scientific community could educate themselves by looking at how us uneducated people live sometimes.

JMO

AH HA!!!!! I knew it! I so wish you'd have just come out and said it was a "faith" & "beliefs" thing!

Now.....atlast... I can simply sigh heavily and add this to the list of personal reasons I have against "faith"

Linda7NJ

10-26-2011, 10:36 AM

Personally I find this whole thing disgusting. Does he want to date girls?

If his mom didn't have the money, what would she have done.

Going on TV to show "look at me now" is so degrading.

Beautiful little girl God made and he destroyed it.

...I'm looking around and seeing a WHOLE lot of ugly. God must be on hiatus.

Kimberlyd125

10-26-2011, 11:12 AM

AH HA!!!!! I knew it! I so wish you'd have just come out and said it was a "faith" & "beliefs" thing!

Now.....atlast... I can simply sigh heavily and add this to the list of personal reasons I have against "faith"

What are you asking me? Or telling me?

Are u referring to the other thread?

Because I plainly said in the other thread I do not agree with transitioning. But the other thread's topic is not pro transition or against transition. It's about the treatment or therapy.

I am opposed to the treatment due to unknown risks of a child's health.

2 different threads/2 different topics.

Kimberlyd125

10-26-2011, 11:15 AM

He's just finished his very successful run on DWTS - as he said this evening during his goodbye "everyone the opportunity to get to know a different kind of man"... Chaz is not delusional. He knows he's different, and has bravely (& entertainingly) shared his experience with the world. Everyone knows Chaz has transitioned FtM, and he's very happy about being able to dance through the rest of his life as the man he now is.

When one's views and beliefs are dismissive, offensive, and invoke trivia for the sole purpose of disrespecting another's human dignity, it's difficult to command respect for them. Of course, free speech supports expressions of all sorts of views and beliefs. I don't know what else to say, except that perhaps there are some views and beliefs that good judgement and circumstance would dictate are best kept to oneself. The compulsion to refer to Chaz Bono as "she" is probably one of those circumstances. :) JMHO

Oh well. What can I say.

I believe in free speech. And it's my opinion.

Don't know why I would keep it to myself on a thread about the topic.

She can live as a man. More power to her.

TrackerSam

10-26-2011, 11:29 AM

Oh well. What can I say.

I believe in free speech. And it's my opinion.

Don't know why I would keep it to myself on a thread about the topic.

She can live as a man. More power to her.

But she'll always be a woman. No amount of surgery and drugs will ever change that.

Chewy

10-26-2011, 11:43 AM

Well, since you asked. :smile:

All those things you listed do not require the mutilation of your sexual organs and pump your body full of hormones to treat a psychological disorder.

JMO

Since we're just talking about Chaz in this thread. He did NOT mutilate his sexual organs at all. He's also an adult so he has the right to use hormones just like anyone else who uses hormones for body regulation.

believe09

10-26-2011, 11:44 AM

But she'll always be a woman. No amount of surgery and drugs will ever change that.

I guess it is all in how you define gender. To me, and this is jmo, gender is more than your sexual organs at birth.

believe09

10-26-2011, 12:31 PM

Knock off the personal attacks and keep to the subject. Do not discuss one another.

thank you!

Emma Peel

10-26-2011, 12:42 PM

:woohoo: :woohoo:

:skip: :skip:

Chaz has won another award!

:woohoo: Congratulations to Chaz! :woohoo:

http://www.aoltv.com/2011/10/21/chaz-bono-glsen-respect-award/

The Respect Awards are meant to honor individuals and corporations that have made significant advances in areas like diversity and inclusion.

Bono, a LGBT activist and author, legally became a man last year after gender-reassignment surgery. Bono's transition was the subject of the Emmy-nominated OWN documentary, 'Becoming Chaz,' as well as his own book, titled 'Transition,' which was released in May 2011.

Bono also made headlines and sparked controversy as 'Dancing With the Stars' first transgender contestant. Back in August, ABC message boards were flooded with bigoted remarks regarding Bono being cast in the celebrity dancing competition. Many of the anti-Bono comments posted on the 'DWTS' message boards targeted Bono for being transgender.

Rob Reiner was also honored, as GLSEN recognized those who champion diversity, inclusion and education.

ABC7 and our president and general manager Arnold Kleiner were proud sponsors of the event.

:woohoo: Congratulations to Chaz! :woohoo:

This is just me but ...

Every time a thread discussion an LGBTQ-related topic is locked or relegated to the private areas of the forum I think of it as one more little loss for LGBTQ people and those who love them and those who hope the public thread continues for discussion purposes. And then I worry that it was in part my doing - for being too outspoken in a debate - and that makes me part of the problem, not the solution. :sigh:

How sad it would be to see this happen to Chaz's celebrity thread. Chaz has worked hard, been the picture of respect, honesty, & dignity, and fought bravely. He will be continuing to appear on talk shows following his DWTS adventure, will be continuing his work education and sharing, and I'm guessing more than a few here would like to continue to root for him on this thread. Chaz deserves better than a locked and/or private thread.

Frankly, that is up to us.

Hey - wouldn't it be great if WS Admin could also get the Respect Award for - the service the forum does by permitting time and time again a topical discussion on LBGTQ issues, and for the patience they exercise on these difficult-to-monitor threads? :applause: We should nominate them! ;) Well, at least, we should thank them. :tyou:

:cow: Just my thoughts. :cow:

Linda7NJ

10-26-2011, 01:08 PM

What are you asking me? Or telling me?

Are u referring to the other thread?

Because I plainly said in the other thread I do not agree with transitioning. But the other thread's topic is not pro transition or against transition. It's about the treatment or therapy.

I am opposed to the treatment due to unknown risks of a child's health.

2 different threads/2 different topics.

BBM

I am asking you nothing.

IMO I don't believe the bolded statement is actually true, especially after stumbling into this one. If it were true, logically... you would also be opposed to other treatments children receive daily that also carry a unknown risk factor as well as potential side effects.

Chewy

10-26-2011, 01:20 PM

I posted in the other thread a report by endocrinologists. It's important to understand that this treatment is monitored very very closely. Lorenzo's oil is another kind of treatment that people balked at because of long term studies not being done, until it started saving their children, then they realized what was more important.

I really have to applaud Chaz, it's got to be very hard to be in the spotlight like this. And "agreeing with it" is really just a moot point. I don't agree with some religious beliefs, but I would not feel it is my place to make sure the believer knows it. I suppose I respect the person well enough to know themselves and what works for them.

Ain't my beeswax. :D

Chewy

10-26-2011, 01:33 PM

[

Every time a thread discussion an LGBTQ-related topic is locked or relegated to the private areas of the forum I think of it as one more little loss for LGBTQ people and those who love them and those who hope the public thread continues for discussion purposes. And then I worry that it was in part my doing - for being too outspoken in a debate - and that makes me part of the problem, not the solution. :sigh:

Hey - wouldn't it be great if WS Admin could also get the Respect Award for - the service the forum does by permitting time and time again a topical discussion on LBGTQ issues, and for the patience they exercise on these difficult-to-monitor threads? :applause: We should nominate them! ;) Well, at least, we should thank them. :tyou:

:cow: Just my thoughts. :cow:

I kinda disagree with you here, although I do understand what you mean. However in just this thread transgender people have been called "wrong" and "disgusting."

These threads should not be that hard to monitor. People shouldn't post such comments and then just tack on a JMHO! at the end as if that makes it ok.

It's why many of us get upset. I don't think it is beneficial for a LBGTQ person to have see this kind of commentary about themselves as a human being.

IMHO if you are not involved with a LBGTQ and have no interest in learning about their issues, then you ought to stay out of these threads because otherwise what is the point other than to have a platform for hate speech?

Chaz does not deserve to have a thread up where he is called disgusting, his gender is rejected "I don't care how many drugs she takes she's still a woman" and all sorts of other comments. While it might be interesting here it is hurtful and mean to other transgenders. I do know a few online and they have posted calmly in the threads but often PMed me about how overwhelming it is to constantly go up against prejudice. I really think we as people should treat one another as people and not "objectify" each other as a "topic of debate."

So in that case I'm glad threads filled with prejudice are shut down. It gives me more hope that LBGTQ are being treated with dignity.

:twocents:

Kimster

10-26-2011, 01:59 PM

I kinda disagree with you here, although I do understand what you mean. However in just this thread transgender people have been called "wrong" and "disgusting."

These threads should not be that hard to monitor. People shouldn't post such comments and then just tack on a JMHO! at the end as if that makes it ok.

It's why many of us get upset. I don't think it is beneficial for a LBGTQ person to have see this kind of commentary about themselves as a human being.

IMHO if you are not involved with a LBGTQ and have no interest in learning about their issues, then you ought to stay out of these threads because otherwise what is the point other than to have a platform for hate speech?

Chaz does not deserve to have a thread up where he is called disgusting, his gender is rejected "I don't care how many drugs she takes she's still a woman" and all sorts of other comments. While it might be interesting here it is hurtful and mean to other transgenders. I do know a few online and they have posted calmly in the threads but often PMed me about how overwhelming it is to constantly go up against prejudice. I really think we as people should treat one another as people and not "objectify" each other as a "topic of debate."

So in that case I'm glad threads filled with prejudice are shut down. It gives me more hope that LBGTQ are being treated with dignity.

:twocents:BBM

Everyone deserves to express their opinion whether they agree or not. The problem is the name calling and the anger just because someone doesn't agree with the topic. This is why we don't allow abortion debates or have a religious forum.

Calling Chaz names is a TOS violation. Attacking other posters is a TOS violation. Saying you do not agree with the decisions Chaz made in a RESPECTFUL manner is not a TOS violation, nor is it hate.

There is a fine line and I think the interpretation of where it is drawn is very difficult for everyone.

Now let's get back on topic and if anyone has a problem with a post, alert. If the mods don't respond, then it's not a TOS violation.

Chewy

10-26-2011, 02:04 PM

Will do, I guess I'm used to other sites where people are banned for rejecting the gender. Not kidding, if you said some of the things I've seen here you'd be permanently banned. Just as if you made racist comments.

Still learning the ropes. Sorry.

But do want to kind of let people know that to say that you reject person's gender and will continue to call them by their birth sex is considered really really really disrespectful in the transgender community. Just an FYI in case some didn't know. ;)

Kimster

10-26-2011, 02:06 PM

Will do, I guess I'm used to other sites where people are banned for rejecting the gender. Not kidding, if you said some of the things I've seen here you'd be permanently banned. Just as if you made racist comments.

Still learning the ropes. Sorry.

But do want to kind of let people know that to say that you reject person's gender and will continue to call them by their birth sex is considered really really really disrespectful in the transgender community. Just an FYI in case some didn't know. ;)

I'm sure some of the comments from the other side are really really disrespectful to other groups of people as well. The thing is, this is a crime forum. That's our focus here.

Thanks for understanding.

animlzrule

10-26-2011, 02:15 PM

Congratulations to Chaz for such an inspiring run on DWTS. What an incredibly brave man. His mother should be very proud of how he has conducted himself throughout the entire experience. Hopefully, he made some isolated, confused, frightened child, teenager, adult feel less alone, less ostracized. It has also been heartening to see how much support he has garnered across the country. It makes me hopeful for the future that love eventually is going to triumph over hate. Children already have an enormous capacity to accept differences, now we just need parents/adults to stop filling their minds with ugly! I hope he goes on to successful fulfilling ventures. He is, after all, much more than his gender, sexuality, etc.

Emma Peel

10-26-2011, 02:17 PM

I kinda disagree with you here, although I do understand what you mean. However in just this thread transgender people have been called "wrong" and "disgusting."

These threads should not be that hard to monitor. People shouldn't post such comments and then just tack on a JMHO! at the end as if that makes it ok.

It's why many of us get upset. I don't think it is beneficial for a LBGTQ person to have see this kind of commentary about themselves as a human being.

IMHO if you are not involved with a LBGTQ and have no interest in learning about their issues, then you ought to stay out of these threads because otherwise what is the point other than to have a platform for hate speech?

Chaz does not deserve to have a thread up where he is called disgusting, his gender is rejected "I don't care how many drugs she takes she's still a woman" and all sorts of other comments. While it might be interesting here it is hurtful and mean to other transgenders. I do know a few online and they have posted calmly in the threads but often PMed me about how overwhelming it is to constantly go up against prejudice. I really think we as people should treat one another as people and not "objectify" each other as a "topic of debate."

So in that case I'm glad threads filled with prejudice are shut down. It gives me more hope that LBGTQ are being treated with dignity.

:twocents:

BBM

Hmmmm...

Thanks Chewy. I didn't think of it that way. That is a very thought provoking perspective. And you caused me some pause. I was not thinking of these threads as a platform for hate speech. :waitasec: But yes, that is a valid point of view.

Fortunately, I think Chaz has shown his detractors & supporters he will not be deterred by all the intentional disrespect and bullying thrown his way. He has accepted the public mantle of advocate. I tend to think that continuing open discussion & education rather than shut-down-discussion is what his goal is.

:cow:

ETA: Wasn't aware Kimster had posted already. Will leave my post, as it is really about Chaz's advocacy & the challenges that come with it.

Emma Peel

10-26-2011, 02:24 PM

Congratulations to Chaz for such an inspiring run on DWTS. What an incredibly brave man. His mother should be very proud of how he has conducted himself throughout the entire experience. Hopefully, he made some isolated, confused, frightened child, teenager, adult feel less alone, less ostracized. It has also been heartening to see how much support he has garnered across the country. It makes me hopeful for the future that love eventually is going to triumph over hate. Children already have an enormous capacity to accept differences, now we just need parents/adults to stop filling their minds with ugly! I hope he goes on to successful fulfilling ventures. He is, after all, much more than his gender, sexuality, etc.

It has been heartening. :)

And inspiring. :)

And hopeful. :)

And, IMO, so healthy & honest & educational for everyone!

Kimster

10-26-2011, 02:28 PM

Since I've been watching this thread, now I feel like adding my :twocents:.

No matter what my feelings on Chaz's personal choices in his life, I felt very sad for him on Monday night. He worked very very hard to improve his dance and he just didn't have the natural gift that others have. If I were dancing on that show, I think I'd have the same problem!

He just looked so disappointed and I felt bad for him.

Emma Peel

10-26-2011, 02:51 PM

Since I've been watching this thread, now I feel like adding my :twocents:.

No matter what my feelings on Chaz's personal choices in his life, I felt very sad for him on Monday night. He worked very very hard to improve his dance and he just didn't have the natural gift that others have. If I were dancing on that show, I think I'd have the same problem!

He just looked so disappointed and I felt bad for him.

Me too Kimster.

Later, Chaz did explain his sadness. He said it had to do with the Judges' comments - one in particular who felt compelled to compare Chaz to a different cuddly animal every single week. The last comparison - to a penguin - as Chaz was in a tuxedo and wearing the Phantom's mask - was the last straw for him.

I remember thinking that the same sort of cuddly animal comments were lavished upon Steve Wozniack when he was a DWTS contestant.

Woz took the cuddly comments with a grin and a laugh, but then, Steve's run was not as long as Chaz, and he hadn't practiced so long and hard and through injury... IIRC...

You know, on Monday night Lacy looked a bit steamed while listening to the judges. I don't think she was steamed at Chaz.

And when Max let the judges have it, I got the feeling he was not just defending his partner Hope - but campaigning for equitable treatment for all the contestants. ;)

LOL. DWTS is my very guilty pleasure. :innocent: Not a word to my kids that I watch this show. Okay? :giggle:

Kimster

10-26-2011, 02:54 PM

Yeah, I thought the comments were demeaning as well. Good point about Max. I didn't think about that before!

Chewy

10-26-2011, 03:07 PM

Am I the only one who is really disappointed that Chaz hasn't lost a ton of weight like some of the other contestants. It's a shame to see him finally happy in life and still struggling with his health. I thought for sure this was going to help him whip into shape.

TrackerSam

10-26-2011, 03:16 PM

BBM

Fortunately, I think Chaz has shown his detractors & supporters he will not be deterred by all the intentional disrespect and bullying thrown his way. He has accepted the public mantle of advocate. I tend to think that continuing open discussion & education rather than shut-down-discussion is what his goal is.

:.

Good point. Chaz came out on national TV and proclaimed transgendered status. If one is going to take on the mantel of celebrity and advocate, one must be ready for everything or remain anonymous. The comments I've made weren't disrespectful to Chad per se since they weren't about Chad.
If anyone only desires to read their own opinions echoed back at them, I suggest they post on a mirror - wait - that would be backward - a double mirror then. To suggest that we not post differing opinions in a medium designed for the sharing of opinions is :waitasec:

Melanie

10-26-2011, 03:37 PM

Am I the only one who is really disappointed that Chaz hasn't lost a ton of weight like some of the other contestants. It's a shame to see him finally happy in life and still struggling with his health. I thought for sure this was going to help him whip into shape.

I'm no expert, but my thought is the weight loss/gain has to be hormonal. Doesn't Chaz take a bunch of Testosterone and the like?

With the other dancers losing weight, my guess it may be a hormone or thyroid imbalance.

Just my .02 --

Mel

dunlurken

10-26-2011, 03:57 PM

Chaz worked very hard and I give him credit for that. However, this show is supposed to be about "Dancing". I continue to believe Chaz was a distraction, nothing more, nothing less, and he should have been booted off.

Can't help it. Every time he smiles, I see that beautiful little girl standing next to Sonny and Cher. He can change everything about himself, but he will still be Chaz Bono. Where that leaves me..... I don't know. :waitasec:

Emma Peel

10-26-2011, 04:09 PM

Chaz worked very hard and I give him credit for that. However, this show is supposed to be about "Dancing". I continue to believe Chaz was a distraction, nothing more, nothing less, and he should have been booted off.

Can't help it. Every time he smiles, I see that beautiful little girl standing next to Sonny and Cher. He can change everything about himself, but he will still be Chaz Bono. Where that leaves me..... I don't know. :waitasec:

Perhaps that leaves you stuck reminiscing in the past. When I see Chaz and hear him speak, I actually hear his father, and see his father's expressions. He sounds just like his dad! And his family - the family that really knows Chaz, is proud of him. JMHO.

e.g. - we've all seen/heard Cher express her pride. Just listen to comments from his other mother, and her description of how Chaz's brother/sisters feel:
http://www.accesshollywood.com/mary-bono-mack-it-was-nerve-racking-watching-chaz-on-dancing_video_1361479

Kimberlyd125

10-26-2011, 08:51 PM

BBM

I am asking you nothing.

IMO I don't believe the bolded statement is actually true, especially after stumbling into this one. If it were true, logically... you would also be opposed to other treatments children receive daily that also carry a unknown risk factor as well as potential side effects.

It is true. I care more about a child's health that all the other "stuff".
I've studied child development. I've worked with children many years.

But, all that has been discussed in the proper thread.

This one is about Chaz. An adult.

essies

10-27-2011, 12:42 AM

Am I the only one who is really disappointed that Chaz hasn't lost a ton of weight like some of the other contestants. It's a shame to see him finally happy in life and still struggling with his health. I thought for sure this was going to help him whip into shape.

I'm no expert, but my thought is the weight loss/gain has to be hormonal. Doesn't Chaz take a bunch of Testosterone and the like?

With the other dancers losing weight, my guess it may be a hormone or thyroid imbalance.

Just my .02 --

Mel
Chaz has had a fight with his weight for a long time probably also has alot to do with depression too-which hopefully will improve as his journey continues and he begins to feel more and more comfortable with his future. Now, I'm sure he is on hormones-that's a double whammy in his fight to control his weight!

Perhaps that leaves you stuck reminiscing in the past. When I see Chaz and hear him speak, I actually hear his father, and see his father's expressions. He sounds just like his dad! And his family - the family that really knows Chaz, is proud of him. JMHO.

e.g. - we've all seen/heard Cher express her pride. Just listen to comments from his other mother, and her description of how Chaz's brother/sisters feel:
http://www.accesshollywood.com/mary-bono-mack-it-was-nerve-racking-watching-chaz-on-dancing_video_1361479
How great is it to see him surrounded by a loving family!! Unfortunately the same can't be said for so many others in similar circumstances!! Life is so short-even if God blesses you with enough years to become an old man or woman. How awful it would be to spend every day living what you feel is a lie to please others and hating every minute of it. No one can know what it is like to be in someone else's head and body that feels foreign and not natural to the essence of who you are!
Chaz, I believe is 40, will now have a chance to have another hopefully 30 or more years to live in his skin as he feels it should be and should have been all along.:twocents: