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RL: Biennales typically exemplify cosmopolitanism, but the notion IS double-edged. On the one ha nd, it is about being curious about and engaged with other people and other places; on the other, it presumes a right to go anywhere with ease. The way the APT has necessitated protracted negotiation with diffe rent and difficult places seems to challenge th is presumption. SR: Cosmopolitanism is about a certain kind of urbanism. But the Asia-Pacific region is more disparate, With very different economic, social, political and rel igious st ru ctures and agendas. There's an urbanising, modernising aspect to the region, but there are other aspects that pull in different di rections RL: You are both diasporic. What's the place of the diasporiC in your work? SR: Where you come from shapes not just your experience but how other people relate to you. It's hardly ever assumed that being asked where I'm from bad, but it does have an effect Diasporas have existed as long as people have moved. Borders are porous. Even in di f f icu lt times people move arou nd - for economic reasons or just because they can, Whenever you do anything defined by geography, like the APT, acknowledging diasporas becomes essential. They often provide the voice that challenges neat formulas HH: states, we to exclude the mig ration dimension, thinking of it as the exception rather than the rule, Nations understand themselves as having a clear-cut terr itory and limit the movement of people in and out, thus consolidating their power structure. But art, by definition, is exactly the opposite. It's fluid. It's about creating dynamics that can challenge such power systems. Even if an artist lives in his own country, he has to be a kind of virtual exile RL: What can we look forward to with your upcoming projec ts, Biennale de Lyon's 'The Spectacle of the Everyday' and APT6? HH: Again I've started from the local. In Lyon you have a large working class and a lot of immigrants. It was in its suburbs that something comparable to the African-American Civi l Rights Movement emerged. There's still a lot of confrontation between the young people and authority, the police - it's intense. I also became interested in the Situationists' critique of the spectacle and the ways the French inte llectual tradition has impacted on artists understanding their role in society. So with the biennale I've tried to create a platform where people who would usually never meet can live and work together with artists. SR: In APT6 we will be looking at North Korea by working with the Mansudae Art Studio and with co-curator Nicholas Bonner, a Beijing - based fi lmmaker who has been in contact with North Korean artists and filmmakers since the early 1990s. These artists make art under a system where every aspect of production (in art as well as industry) is collectivised. At Mansudae they produce mosaics for public buildings, textiles, carpet designs and propaganda posters, as well as tradi tional brush-and-ink paintings, calligraphy, woodcuts and oil paintings, Including them in the APT challenges assumptions about what contemporary art is, but then the APT has consistently been concerned with how artists live and work under diverse conditions throughout the region. Obviously working with North Korea is fraught and it's impossible to sustain any cosmopolitan illusions in dealing with that part of the world. It's taken us five years of conversations to get to th is point, but there's been a will on both sides to make something happen. As I said before, the APT's regional focus really distinguishes it. The great international art-curatorial caravan doesn't go to Pyongyang or to Port Vila in Vanuatu, but the APT does. The trienn ial privileges dissonance and provides a platform for very dissimilar perspectives. 1 Th,sconve,sal,ontookpl~ceon IS September 2OQ9 Blenna", de Lyon 2009, The Spectacle of the Everyday. 16 September 2009 - 3Janw,y 2010: The 6th Asia-Pacific Triennia l of ContempOrary An, 5 De<;amber 2009- SApri! 2010 an & australia 283