ENOUGH ROPE finishing up at the end of 2008

After six years of edge-of-the-seat television, multiple awards and a re-definition of the meaning of a talk-show, ABC TV and Zapruder's other films are today announcing that ENOUGH ROPE will not return in 2009. More >>

Episodes

Elders Part 4 - Helen Thomas

This fourth part of the "Elders" series features Helen Thomas, the doyenne of the White House Press Corps - from JFK to George W. Bush, she has reported on the highs and lows of world politics for 57 years.

ANDREW DENTON VO: We live in a society that worships youth. On television, in magazines, in advertisements and on billboards, what sells and what is sold to us is youth. But in some cultures it is the elders of the community who are valued and whose wisdom is sought. In this series we are going to seek out six prominent elders of our tribe, each over the age of 65 to see what life has taught them. Welcome to the elders.

ANDREW DENTON VO: She has known nine US Presidents personally and has questioned their actions so uncompromisingly President Johnson once described her as a mixture of acupuncture and journalism. Her outspokenness has seen her ostracised by the powerful and by colleagues alike. Now nearing 90 she still writes a column directly from the White House, just as she has done for nearly 50 years. She is the First Lady of American journalism, Helen Thomas.

ANDREW DENTON: You were on the body whatís called the body watch. You used to live on the fringes of the Presidentís life. What kind of existence was that for you?

HELEN THOMAS: Exciting covering history every day. Never knew what was going to happen. There was never a day without news and most of the news one way or another comes to the White House.

ANDREW DENTON: Youíve been involved with the White House now for since 1961.

HELEN THOMAS: Thatís right.

ANDREW DENTON: When you go into the grounds of the White House do you have a sense of the many ghosts?

HELEN THOMAS: You have your have your memories and you have memories of nostalgia for better Presidents, no question about it.

ANDREW DENTON: Can you give me some of those memories? The sorts of moments that stay with you in the White House?

HELEN THOMAS: Well I think Kennedy of course was very inspiring. I mean he really set goals for mankind. He said thereís a universe out there that we have to explore. He had been to war. He stepped back from the brink along with Khrushchev when both had nuclear arsenals to blow up the world during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Thatís statesmanship and I donít think weíd have it today even the most touted politicians. Linden B Johnson his of course say no more with the Vietnam War but his contribution on the domestic side last half of the 20th century was phenomenal.

ANDREW DENTON: I know that occasionally you would ride in a limousine with LBJ and I think on at least one occasion in his helicopter.

HELEN THOMAS: Right. That would never happen today.

ANDREW DENTON: How was it that you came to be in the helicopter with him?

HELEN THOMAS: Well he invited us on and Johnson was a people person and sometimes reporters became people when nobody else was around. He liked the company.

Laughter

ANDREW DENTON: And when you were sitting in the helicopter or the limousine with the President, what do you talk about?

HELEN THOMAS: Well he looked at me and he said you look he didnít say like hell but very dishevelled, I had run in my and he dug got his comb and handed me his comb to comb my hair. That was the beginning.

ANDREW DENTON: Did it sometimes feel as though you were an extended part of the Presidentís family?

HELEN THOMAS: Hell no. Never never never. No no no, you felt always an outsider. Your nose is against the window pane. Youíre looking in.

ANDREW DENTON: They knew ...

HELEN THOMAS: You were the intruder if anything.

ANDREW DENTON: And they knew that you were the intruder. Jimmy Carterís wife, Miss Lillian, said, ďIf Iíve learnt one thing itís to keep my mouth shut around Helen Thomas.Ē

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: Thatís right.

ANDREW DENTON VO: The daughter of immigrants, Helen grew up in Detroit, Michigan in the 1920s.

ANDREW DENTON: Iíd actually like to go way way back to Detroit and your mum, Mary and your dad, George. What values did they raise you kids to believe in?

HELEN THOMAS: All the values that you were raised with probably. Be fair, be decent, you know never harm anyone. All the things that the be honest, tell the truth, be educated, seek a better life, help mankind.

ANDREW DENTON: I wasnít raised with any of those values. The only values I had were put that back.

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: Your hand in the cookie jar?

ANDREW DENTON: Could have been, yes.

Laughter

ANDREW DENTON: You were the seventh of nine kids. Is that right?

HELEN THOMAS: Nine children, right.

ANDREW DENTON: Iím guessing this is a family ...

HELEN THOMAS: My father and mother couldnít read or write.

ANDREW DENTON: Really?

HELEN THOMAS: My dad had emigrated from Syria. It was Syria then in the 1890s and after World War I when the British and the French cut up the world, cut up the Middle East that is, their town, Tripoli, became a part of Lebanon. They created Lebanon for the Christian people.

ANDREW DENTON: A tricky thing to move to a country where you donít know the customs, you donít know the language.

HELEN THOMAS: I wouldnít call it tricky. I call it the great courage to go into the unknown, come by steerage, few cents in your pocket, never knowing what the future will hold, build your life on hope. But I must say that education was a great goal. We were very interested in what was going on and determined to be American and not to be Mediterranean.

ANDREW DENTON: Whatís the difference?

HELEN THOMAS: The difference was you were called a garlic eater and if you werenít blonde and blue-eyed you were not American in those days. I mean Iím not saying we suffered the prejudice that blacks do by any stretch of the imagination but there was a lot of prejudice against it. We were not dark skinned per se but we came from the Mediterranean area and this countryís very Anglo.

ANDREW DENTON: What are your first memories of coming to Washington?

HELEN THOMAS: I had just graduated from Wayne University in Detroit and I was determined to be a newspaper woman at any price and I went around knocking on doors to try to get a job as a copyboy and worked in a restaurant for a while as a hostess. I didnít smile enough, didnít know the game, and my big moment came when I was about to be fired for hostessing and I got the job as a copygirl on the Washington Daily News. Got a foot in the door and I said thatís this is it, and I thought that Iím the luckiest woman in the world.

ANDREW DENTON: Why did you know you wanted to do that?

HELEN THOMAS: Cause Iím nosy and cause I think it was a great profession, that youíd always keep learning and I never knew how far it could really take anyone in terms of of an education every day but I had one of my essays in English class was printed in the paper and it and as I joined the high school paper and I saw my by-line by ego swelled and I was just I said, ďMy God, this is it.Ē You know itís fame at last.

ANDREW DENTON: What about the town itself, the city of Washington when you first came here?

HELEN THOMAS: Sleepy Southern town. Lots of discrimination, lots of de- there was desegregation. A black could not walk in to a restaurant of any eminence or ho-hotel to get a hotel room. I remember some of the black singers who were invited to ah to the White House crying saying this is the first time theyíve ever been in the White House and I used to come to a hotel I couldnít even get into a hotel. But Iím angry at myself that I wasnít angrier at what I s- felt and saw around it. Just to get a cup of coffee they couldnít a black could not come in, sit down at a snack bar. They could get a cup of coffee and take it out. I mean this is crass.

ANDREW DENTON: And this in the in the capital of the free world?

HELEN THOMAS: I think that I felt I should have done more. As a reporter you canít march. I mean youíre not supposed to be a participant but I do feel I was so angry at what I saw around me and I should have done something, maybe.

ANDREW DENTON: The old saying that that power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely. Do you believe thatís true?

HELEN THOMAS: Yeah. I think it can. Iíve seen people men go into the Oval Office with some trepidation. In a couple of days they think theyíre President and they think thatís all powerful and people worship at their shrine and every wish is a command, no yeah I think very corrupting.

ANDREW DENTON: Who have you seen most changed by that office?

HELEN THOMAS: This man. I think he thinks heís President and heís led us into a very b-big quagmire morass.

[Clip]

ANDREW DENTON VO: As senior White House correspondent Helenís line of questioning, particularly of this current President, was always direct.

[Helen talking in clip]

ANDREW DENTON VO: But in 2003 her relationship with the Presidency was fractured when an off the record comment she made about George Bush ended up in print. She had called him ďthe worst President in American historyĒ.

ANDREW DENTON: What were the consequences of that remark for you?

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: Well Ari Fleischer called me, did you say that? I said I cannot tell a lie, I chopped down the cherry tree, I donít know if you know how it worked George Washington.

Laughter

ANDREW DENTON: Yes George Washington yes.

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: Heís they were very unhappy.

ANDREW DENTON: More than unhappy. You were ...

HELEN THOMAS: Ostracised.

ANDREW DENTON: The ranking White House correspondent, front row, your name on the chair uniquely. You were ostracised werenít you? What happened?

HELEN THOMAS: Well at press at press conference which was a very crucial press conference. I think it was March 6, 2003. In two weeks we went to war. The President came out, held a news conference. They put me in the back row for that and it was so clear he was telling the reporters the American people were going to war. This is two weeks before the invasion. No-one asked why and he didnít call on me but I was loaded for bear you know, why? And so I think that reporters missed a shining moment. They said to him, ďDo you pray?Ē and so forth and I mean they accepted the illogic of it all.

ANDREW DENTON: Personally what did that mean to you? Youíre not without ego. You were the ranking White House correspondent.

HELEN THOMAS: Oh no, you know I for as for wire service when I worked for UPI I would get the first or second question so Iíve been very privileged. I havenít been denied in that respect. Now that Iím a columnist, a personal opinion and so forth I didnít deserve to have the first question but I would like to have had a crack at it and so I think it was you know it didnít matter, doesnít really matter. What matters is that the questions were not asked that should have been asked.

ANDREW DENTON: You did write to him after you were reported as having called him the worst President. How did he respond?

HELEN THOMAS: Very nice. Wrote me a nice note and he thought as I he thought it was a peace offering and then ha so he called on me the next time I said, ďWhy did we go to war?Ē

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: So again I was in the dog house. Deep freeze this time.

ANDREW DENTON: Itís interesting though i-it yes itís a question of bigger things but itís also a question of your effectiveness. There was an interesting exchange where you were asking a question and Ari Fleishner said to the Press Corp generally we briefly interrupt this Q and A session for an advocacy moment.

HELEN THOMAS: Yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: When you can be mocked publicly by those in powerÖ

HELEN THOMAS: I donít care.

ANDREW DENTON: Öare they listening to you?

HELEN THOMAS: I donít I no I think my most my colleagues do not agree with me at all. They think Iím intrusive and they think that Iím I shouldnít have my opinions and so forth. Well thatís their problem.

[Clip]

ANDREW DENTON VO: In 1971 Helen became the first woman appointed Chief White House Correspondent for the wire service United Press International. Her main opposition was rival wire service Associated Press led by a man she had known for years, Douglas Cornell. When Cornell announced his retirement President Nixon held a surprise party at the White House to mark the occasion but it was Helen who was most surprised.

HELEN THOMAS: It was supposed to be a secret and I had told Pat Nixonís secretary about it and I said, ďIf you keep a secret,Ē and she told Pat Nixon, told Nixon and it it just turned out not to be a big secret. And this was a farewell party for Doug so the President announced no Pat Nixon announced my engagement so called and I, between tears and laughter Iím you know, writing this story and you know I thought to myself, there is no such thing as a secret.

ANDREW DENTON: But you of all people should have known that?

HELEN THOMAS: Yeah but you donít.

Laughter

ANDREW DENTON: I find that extraordinary because there you were legendry for your sources in the White House and your ability to find things out that people didnít want you to know.

HELEN THOMAS: No I was not that good I was just the enfant terrible you know keep yapping at them.

ANDREW DENTON: Thatís an interesting dynamic in a relationship, to be rivals.

HELEN THOMAS: Rivals and yet understanding the same profession. Respecting each other.

ANDREW DENTON: How did you draw the line between your rivalry and your affection?

HELEN THOMAS: We didnít tell each other anything.

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: We were truly competitive.

ANDREW DENTON: You said that marriage was the most wonderful and unexpected thing that ever happened to you. Why unexpected?

HELEN THOMAS: I never really was dying to get married although a lot of young women I grew up with of course it became the pro forma thing so I wanted a career. I wanted I didnít I had a sister who had 14 children and I thought no no no. I say how about a different track?

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: So I think that I was influenced a lot by that. Never was dying to get married.

ANDREW DENTON: You described Douglas as one in a billion trillion. Why was he that one in a billion trillion for you?

HELEN THOMAS: Well I think it was a very nice I mean he was a wonderful man, great reporter and so forth so I was lucky. But you meet a lot of people that you never should have married and I think I was able to avoid a lot of, not that I, they were barking at my door, far from it, but what I mean is you might have felt you missed something.

ANDREW DENTON: What makes a good marriage?

HELEN THOMAS: Understanding, friendship I think, humour having same goals in life, values.

ANDREW DENTON: In your book, in the chapter about Douglas, itís very beautiful the way you finish it, youíre talking about racing out the door as Hyper Helen, your description of yourself following the President on another excursion and how Douglas would be sitting there in his armchair and

HELEN THOMAS: Mhm.

ANDREW DENTON: You would say to him I love you DougÖ

HELEN THOMAS: Mhm

ANDREW DENTON: Öand heíd say ďsometimesĒ.

HELEN THOMAS: Thatís right, which is the way marriage is.

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: It has its ups and downs. I donít think you can say everything is always hunky dory but I do think that he told the truth, sometimes you do and sometimes youíre angry.

[Clip]

ANDREW DENTON: Can I talk a little bit about loss? First of all the assassination of President Kennedy who you admired and who you were close enough to have an affection for.

HELEN THOMAS: Mhm.

ANDREW DENTON: How did you deal with that?

HELEN THOMAS: Well you should have seen the night of his assassination, I was at the White House , we were all phoning in there, we had booths for that time no cell phone and people were crying and dictating their stories. It was a combination. It was kind of hilarious when you think about it. The tears coming down your eyes and youíre dictating everything whatís happening at the White House. I think because youíre not supposed to have personal feelings as a reporter, youíre supposed to be as abstract and objective but you saw a true emotion and at the same time you saw straight reporting so it was a very unusual scene for me. But it showed it could be done.

ANDREW DENTON: Your husband, Douglas, four I think it was years after you married he became ill with Alzheimerís and

HELEN THOMAS: Mhm

ANDREW DENTON: You saw him decline and die from that. You are somebody who lives in your mind and you saw the man you love lose his. That must have had a powerful impact on you.

HELEN THOMAS: Oh yes but I more powerful was my family helped me. I never put him in home orÖ

ANDREW DENTON: Yes that is remarkable. Your sister in particular took him in, is that right?

HELEN THOMAS: No. This is the moment you wanted.

ANDREW DENTON: No, not at all and if youíd rather I didnít.

HELEN THOMAS: I donít want to sit around and to apologise for my life.

ANDREW DENTON: I donít want you to apologise for your life. Far from it. Iím what weíre talking about here is whatís happened in your life and what

HELEN THOMAS: What do you think happens for Godís sakes? You see someone deteriorate before your eyes.

ANDREW DENTON: I think we just stop for the minute. And I apologise.

HELEN THOMAS: Itís not your fault.

ANDREW DENTON: Well i-it is to a certain extent. I didnít realise that you felt that strongly. I thought we had it was clear that these sorts of things were going to be talked about.

HELEN THOMAS: No my reaction surprises me.

Laughter

ANDREW DENTON: Yeah and look Iím genuinely sorry because that was not. I try to be very upfront.

HELEN THOMAS: Itís not you itís not your fault.

ANDREW DENTON: What Iím asking about is how you move on from that.

HELEN THOMAS: Itís a loss. How do you how does anyone do it? You just pass through, go on living thatís all. I mean it isnít something like meeting some traumatic black grim reaper and then suddenly you know, you overcome it. You just live, thatís all.

[Clip]

ANDREW DENTON: Do you feel optimistic about the planet?

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: I donít worry about it existing if you mean I mean I donít worry about it. I think that younger people do global warming and so forth, I worry about killing everybody.

ANDREW DENTON: Yeah. Do you feel optimistic about us as a species?

HELEN THOMAS: As a species?

ANDREW DENTON: As a species? Yeah about the future of us?

HELEN THOMAS: I mean I donít know. I donít feel happy about human nature, no. The passivity. I mean look what the Germans did. They tolerated Nazism, they tolerated gas chambers, they tolerated. Look at us the passivity. We tolerate torture, we tolerate killing innocent people. Who are we? What have we become? No. I mean I mean Iím facing the immediate problems. Iím not worried about the planet. Iím worried about us right now.

[Clip]

ANDREW DENTON: Do you see in the new generation coming through, do you see seeds for hope?

HELEN THOMAS: Who can live without hope? Of course thereís hope. I donít know about the new generation per se but I mean thereíll always be hope. Canít go any further down in my opinion.

ANDREW DENTON: What would say to a suicide bomber?

HELEN THOMAS: Why? What is it about our country that have we have not tried to understand what why are they doing these things. You can tell a suicide bomber has reached the end of his rope. I think you have to find out why. There has been no attempt in this country of finding out what is terrorism? What motivates these people? Why would they give up their lives when they we know people cherish their lives? Because they see no hope and they also have felt so pushed down. I do think that our lack of curiosity of what motivates these people. See I donít believe itís 12 virgins in heaven that baloney. I think itís a deeper feeling of being absolutely the end of the road.

ANDREW DENTON: To many people in this country a suicide bomber represents the darkest of dark forces.

HELEN THOMAS: Well it is. But whatís the difference between a suicide bomber and dropping a missile in a house and blowing up everybody? Napalm and things that weíve done in Vietnam and now. I mean we what did we do at Falljah? We left one tree. We wiped them out because they had fired rebelled and revolted and pushed us back for a while. Came in with a vengeance and nobody even mentions it. It was carthage at the end.

ANDREW DENTON: Isnít that whatís needed for the war on terror?

HELEN THOMAS: I think we ought to find out what itís all about. What is the motive of these terrorists so called terrorists? Whoís a terrorist? Whoís a terrorist? Youíre an Iraqi defending your own country, your family, your home. Does that make you a terrorist? Were the American Revolutionaries terrorists?

ANDREW DENTON: To the British they were.

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: Yes. Youíre right.

Laughter

ANDREW DENTON VO: In April 2008 Helenís frustrations boiled over publicly after she questioned an admission by President Bush that he knew about torture being used by the US Army, contradicting his claim of many years that he had no knowledge of it.

[Clip Ė Helen talking in clip]

ANDREW DENTON VO: When the White House Press Secretary dismissed Helenís question and no one else said anything Helen turned to her colleagues and asked,

[Clip Ė Helen talking]

HELEN THOMAS: I turned to my colleagues. You know youíre a reporter when youíre out there youíre asking your own question, right? You donít expect the backup really. Thatís your problem. If youíre asking it for help youíre finished. But I did not expect I said, ĎWhere is everybodyĒ because I knew that every reporter in that room had heard over and over and over again, ďWe do not tortureĒ and nothing in them reacted in anger and outrage that suddenly the President says, ďYes, I OK-ed itĒ. And no reaction. I mean how do you account for that as human beings. Ever since Abu Ghraib revelations and so forth he has said for about three years now, ďWe do not torture.Ē He has said it publicly. This year he said it twice at two consecutive news conferences. His spokespeople have said it. ďWe do not torture.Ē Then he gives an interview to ABC Martha Raddich and he said he knew about the planning sessions and he for torture and he approved it. Now when I confronted the Press Secretary at the White House I said, ďWhat is this? Youíve been saying now for years you we do not torture and now the President says Ďyesí.Ē So all I can say is scepticism is the mildest term for your approach to these people who say why would you not be ashamed for your credibility, your probity, anything? How would you how could you do that? Why donít you just tell the truth? Say I OK so theyíre going to be that flamboyant about it but to lose your sense of honesty.

ANDREW DENTON: Well how do you account for that? You believe that since 9/11 things have changed within the White House Press Corp is that right?

HELEN THOMAS: I believe theyíre afraid of being un-American, unpatriotic and I believe that theyíre I donít know this factually but I do think that their corporate heads in New York say why did you ask for that that question We donít like the look on your face. Maybe you donít get it in Australia but I think they get it here.

ANDREW DENTON: Is this a time in American journalism or do you fear that this is a permanent change?

HELEN THOMAS: Oh I think itís a degradation. I think itís a default on the part of the reporters to not call the hands of these people and say, ďLook you said this yesterday and youíre saying this now. How can you how can you approach the American people with this?Ē Weíre supposed to be an informed people. We can handle the truth.

ANDREW DENTON: Donít most people expect their politicians not to tell the truth?

HELEN THOMAS: I donít know most people and I donít know what they expect but I donít think they should have to expect lies.

ANDREW DENTON: Itís interesting ah itís and maybe this is my cynicism and cynicism is not a great thing to have.

HELEN THOMAS: There is a perception of politicians. I know what youíre what youíre really saying.

ANDREW DENTON: What was it that Churchill said? ďA politician is asked to stand, hopes to sit and is expected to lie.Ē

HELEN THOMAS: Yes and they say the same thing about diplomats sent abroad to lie for their country, right? You know theyíre not just lying to someone else, theyíre lying to the world, theyíre lying in our name and if they continue that we have no credibility. Itís more than the boy who cried wolf, itís that you have no credence at all as a country.

ANDREW DENTON: Of course Saddam Hussein lied and Malarchi lied and Tony Blair lied. Why should why should America have standards that its rivals and opponents refused to adhere?

HELEN THOMAS: Because weíre better, we think, because we have higher standards and because we donít expect the best of them but we do expect the best of ourselves. We have put ourselves on a pedestal. We have a halo. Weíre supposed to represent the best of mankind, mankind striving for even higher heights. I think most Americans feel a certain shame in the very fact that they can hardly go anywhere in the world and not be, you know, feeling that theyíve done a wrong thing and theyíve been shunned.

[Clip]

ANDREW DENTON: Youíve said that your heart bleeds every day for the timidity of the White House Press Corp.

HELEN THOMAS: I am shocked at their complicity with the government, the fact that they have gone along with a censorship of photos from the war. Everyone remembers from Vietnam the little girl, you know, a flame in Napalm and so forth. If the American people donít see what weíve done, what we do when we drop a missile on a house in Sadr City, then what is it? Why are they being shielded? Why do editors and reporters shield us? It isnít reporters, itís the editors. They donít want to offend. Itís better to have Brittney on the front page, you get more play.

ANDREW DENTON: Can you ever see that changing? You come from a different tradition, can you see that tradition returning?

HELEN THOMAS: Of course. Thatís on, thatís the only truism of life is change. The only thing thatís constant. Of course.

ANDREW DENTON: Is there not a different dynamic in play now. Itís tied to profit more than principle?

HELEN THOMAS: I think the dynamic of propaganda coming from government, from a after a fear card has been played, itís much more effective but if there are a lot of people out there, when I turned and said, ďWhere is everybodyĒ to my colleagues, I got 50 bouquets of flowers and cards saying weíre here, weíre here.

Laughter

HELEN THOMAS: So that wasÖit effected some people.

ANDREW DENTON: And when youíre gone and when youíre not doing this anymore, do you think thereíll be people that take up what you have done?

HELEN THOMAS: Absolutely. I mean, absolutely. I think thatís the role of the press and theyíll wake up, theyíll come out of their coma.

ANDREW DENTON: Youíve said you must never lose your weapon of scepticism. How do you keep it sharp?

HELEN THOMAS: How can you not? Thereís so many things that need to questions. Throughout everything that goes on today, you say, ďWhyĒ? Ask why.