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Re: Death Penalty

Originally Posted by Kal'Stang

This has more to do with society and money than it does with the law.

Really....

Who decides who gets arrested? The Cops (aka The State)
Who decides who gets prosecuted? The DA (aka The State)
Who decides if the death penalty sentence is a just consideration? The Judge (aka The State)

When is society making the decision?

Indigent defendants are often given ineffective counsel. It is up to The State to make sure that they get a decent defense, the state is responsible.

"You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all" --Randolph J. Dworkin

Re: Death Penalty

Originally Posted by taxigirl
I was still speaking to how it is hidden, the gruesomeness is hidden from those who do get to view it. One of the reasons it is wrong is intrinsic, the shame people feel when they realize a decision of that magnitude has taken place, that an execution has been carried out in their name, for the betterment of their society. There is shame in that, and that is the first thing that tells us the death penalty is wrong.
Shame is the antithesis to dignity, by hiding the acts of the death penalty we are denying that we have taken their dignity and ours. The ethical considerations here are that when we feel negative feelings such as shame it is a sign that we should change the circumstance that made us feel that way (think about when you felt you had to apologize about something). If we do not take action, if we deny it and we let that shame build, we are not acting to make anything better, we are not even being stoic, we are simply shamed.

You think that there is shame in that... I don't. Your reasoning is completely subjective. I would feel shame in knowing that the offender had not been put to death. I would feel shame in knowing that we valued the innocent life taken so little as to allow the criminal to continue living. So you are correct, if we do not take action and if we deny it and we let that shame build, we are not acting to make anything better, we are not even being stoic, we are simply shamed.

Re: Death Penalty

Originally Posted by taxigirl

Really....

Who decides who gets arrested? The Cops (aka The State)
Who decides who gets prosecuted? The DA (aka The State)
Who decides if the death penalty sentence is a just consideration? The Judge (aka The State)

When is society making the decision?

Indigent defendants are often given ineffective counsel. It is up to The State to make sure that they get a decent defense, the state is responsible.

Wrong...

Who decides who gets arrested? Societies laws written by elected members of the givernment voted in and out by said society.
Who decides who gets prosecuted? The DA who is elected by society and can be not re-elected if he does not represent their wishes.
Who decides who gets the Death Penalty? Again, the DA who seeks the DP and again the Judge is appointed by elected officials...

Society is involved at every step in the process and can change the process whenever they want.

Re: Death Penalty

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

It may not be applied uniformly but that does not mean that we are arbitrarily killing people like he said and Kal-Stang explained why. Arbitrarily killing people would be to just kill people regardless of offense at any moment for any reason.

According to SCOTUS and to other leading legal scholars the correct legal terminology is arbitrary.

Twenty years have passed since this Court declared that the death penalty must be imposed fairly, and with reasonable consistency, or not at all, and, despite the effort of the states and courts to devise legal formulas and procedural rules to meet this daunting challenge, the death penalty remains fraught with arbitrariness, discrimination, caprice, and mistake."– U.S. Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, February 22, 1994

"You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all" --Randolph J. Dworkin

Re: Death Penalty

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

Wrong...

Who decides who gets arrested? Societies laws written by elected members of the givernment voted in and out by said society.
Who decides who gets prosecuted? The DA who is elected by society and can be not re-elected if he does not represent their wishes.
Who decides who gets the Death Penalty? Again, the DA who seeks the DP and again the Judge is appointed by elected officials...

Society is involved at every step in the process and can change the process whenever they want.

Police determine who gets arrested. They put the effort in to investigate (which depending on the victim can be a large or not so much of an investigation).
Yes, the DA is elected, but they make the decision to request the death sentence, not the people who elected them.
The Judge who is appointed or elected decides.

not in one of those instances is government taking a poll of the members it represents asking them if the death penalty is appropriate.

"You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all" --Randolph J. Dworkin

Re: Death Penalty

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

You think that there is shame in that... I don't. Your reasoning is completely subjective. I would feel shame in knowing that the offender had not been put to death. I would feel shame in knowing that we valued the innocent life taken so little as to allow the criminal to continue living. So you are correct, if we do not take action and if we deny it and we let that shame build, we are not acting to make anything better, we are not even being stoic, we are simply shamed.

How does the death penalty make it any better for the victim?

"You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all" --Randolph J. Dworkin

Re: Death Penalty

Originally Posted by taxigirl

Police determine who gets arrested. They put the effort in to investigate (which depending on the victim can be a large or not so much of an investigation).
Yes, the DA is elected, but they make the decision to request the death sentence, not the people who elected them.
The Judge who is appointed or elected decides.

not in one of those instances is government taking a poll of the members it represents asking them if the death penalty is appropriate.

A poll? The poll was predetermined... that is the point. And no, the police don't decide... they follow the rule of law as set down by society. If the people don't like the DA asking for the DP they replace him. That is how the system works. Same with the Judge and/or those that elected or appointed him. You are not arguing against the DP you are arguing against the enitre United States system of government as it is set up in the US Constitution.