What are the right-wingers upset about? They got everything they wanted. I could understand why some on the other side of the aisle are mad, but not those on the right. McChrystal made a request, Obama gave him everything he wanted, and the troops are going to be there faster than he even requested.

And yet they are mad at Obama. I just simply don’t get it. I don’t even get the anger over the “timeline,” because unless I am completely forgetting things, the Bush surge originally only planned for the troops to be there for a set period before scaling back from the surge. Otherwise it wouldn’t be a surge, it would simply be a major escalation. The plan was to surge the troops to Baghdad, stabilize the region, and then withdraw.

I await the day he captures OBL and the right-wingers will be forced to discuss how BAD that is for America and how unbelieveably dangerous it was to put solidiers’ lives in harms way by merely being in the same area code as OBL.

You are not missing anything. It’s called s-t-r-a-t-e-gy.
The end game is to have the negativism over anything done by Obama to be remembered by their remarks and nothing else. When you consider how they whipped up the those supposed average Americans to come out for teabagging, it’s not hard to sell them the message(s).

Because he is not “THEM”. It really makes a difference who is calling the shots.

On top of that, he is actually trying to win. The wingers goal is not to win, but to keep fighting forever. They have the ideal enemy, who will never give up and who can never be beaten, at least not without dropping the bomb on about 1.3 billion people around the world. That let’s them do all kinds of nasty things here at home, like sacrificing civil liberties, ignoring the environment, and trying to crush unions. Any attempt to win means their real goals may some day be over. Just reread 1984 to get a good idea of what they want.

They got what they wanted from a half-Black, Democrat with a Muslim middle name, who gave grave consideration to a decision that obviously pained him. And he didn’t pound the podium with the one thing he has that they envy.

Uhmm John, you are afflicted with the same malady as some other reasonable bloggers on the net. The belief that there is ANYTHING that would make the wingnuts happy that President Obama does. At some point in the future you will decide to assume that no matter what President Obama says or does the right wing will attack him for it, even if just seconds earlier they were proposing or saying the exact same thing. And then my friend you will have peace of mind.

You’re missing the fact that they don’t want us to EVER leave Iraq and Afghanistan.

You’re incorrect to say that they wanted us to surge and then withdraw. Don’t you remember “Why not 100 years? Why not 1000? Why not 10,000?”

Don’t you remember “We’ve still got troops in Germany?”

What do you think all of those permanent bases were for in Iraq? Why do you think they designed a $billion “embassy?”

Don’t you remember National Review talking about the benefit of Iraq bases, and removing our provocative presence from Saudi Arabian bases?

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees! There is a BIG QUESTION here, John: are we going to stay in Iraq and Afghanistan indefinitely, are we going to be occupying powers that use force to hold them in our sphere of influence and use their territory to “project force” against…ahem…”regional threats?”

Or are we going to end our adventures there, and not try to make those countries the equivalent of the Warsaw Pact satellite countries?

The wingnuts want us to stay, permanently. Obama has said no, we’re going to leave. We’re going to accomplish what we can accomplish, achieve the best settlement we can in a reasonable amount of time and at a reasonable cost, lower the flag, and am-scray.

THAT’S what they’re upset about, and if you subscribe to neo-con ideology, you SHOULD be upset by Obama’s announcement tonight.

@valdivia: Seriously – they were whining that Obama didn’t do a cock walk out to the podium and slam his fist on it and declare the Taliban the evilest of the evil evildoers and therefore we’re doomed to fail even if Obama is doing the right thing.

Please. Obama could buy a lifetime’s worth of hookers and blow for each and every registered Republican, nuke Iran before having his morning coffee, and personally carve Ronald Reagan’s face into Mount Rushmore using his fingernails, and they’d still bitch.

It came up repeatedly yesterday. Rejecting the GOP today is hardly a profile in courage. Let’s see where Charles goes next. It’s a good move, don’t get me wrong, but the real test is what he actually supports.

ellaesther: Charles has been getting raked over the coals for quite some time. He’s been having quite the John Cole-like re-entry into the reality based world. He finally reached his Schiavo threshold. Come to think of it, this could be a lexicon reference to the tipping point when a winger finally reaches the point when they can’t swallow one more turd of the shit avalanche that is the American right. Of course, there aren’t enough smart wingers for this to be too common a phenomenon, but we do seem to have more of these cases popping up lately.

Look, the kneejerk opposition to Obama and their obvious discomfort at his socialistic skin tone explain a lot about the wingnuts, but this is actually an important dispute, over important principles that divide the country.

The Republican Party is led by imperialists. They advocate an imperialistic vision of foreign policy, where we take over countries, control them, and use they to expand our military dominance over important regions of the world. They viewed Iraq this way, and they view Afghanistan this way.

Barack Obama opposes that vision. He laid out a way forward tonight that rebuts it. No, he’s not a pacifist isolationist. No, he doesn’t support an immediate withdrawal. Yes, he has a more expansive vision for the use of force than some of the people who are broadly on his side – but those are pretty, fine-tuning disputes.

There is a big question here, about what kind of nation we’re going to be: a republic, that wages war in defense of itself and its allies when confronted by a thread, or an empire, that seeks to use force across the globe for the purpose of making us more powerful. This isn’t a ginned-up dispute; it’s very real.

I think his message was very clear – to the military. They wanted more – they got it – faster than they asked for. He has now placed the full burden of victory or defeat at the hands of McChrystal and Petraeus, for he has set a timeline within his term of deciding their fates regarding success or failure – something that is rarely done in presidential politics. Bravo!

As for the perpetual war complex – he’s now given them their termination papers and boy do they not like it! Look at our conservative war hawks. Scowling. Look at the blowhard “former military commanders” on TV – boy they don’t like it! Deadlines! Oooh – scary – send wrong message. Even Cheney thinks it’s “weakness”.

Speaking of which, I saw somewhere today (sorry, cannot remember where) that Lou Dobbs is in talks with CNBC. Fortunately for me, it’s a station I never watch anyhow, so I won’t have to go to any extra effort to avoid his racist xenophobic rants.

I confess that the only reason I knew anything about it at all was the the fact that John has been posting about the guy’s increasingly apparent approach to the Schiavo threshold — but then I had to read about his metaphorical Schiavo post on Boing Boing! A day late! Which seemed terribly unfair.

It’s quite a little post too!

But I suppose I was too busy working yesterday to get caught up. I hate working!

Seriously, I don’t know why anybody listens to the wingers at all. Or expresses any exasperation, at this late date, at anything they say.

If I turned on the tv tomorrow and Sean Hannity was shouting…

“President Obama spoke his speech in English!!!!!! It’s UnAmerican!!! You know who else talks in English???? Ted Bundy, that’s who! and Jeffrey Dahmer!!!!! American Patriots gave their lives to get away from the English!!!!!!!!!”

…I would say, “Yep. That’s exactly what I expected to see.” and then I’d turn it to something with a lick of sense. Really, one shouldn’t pay much attention to the stupidest people on the planet.

Pop quiz: what does the Afghanistan war have in common with cap and trade and the current healthcare reform effort (I’m thinking specifically of individual insurance mandates)?

All of these things began life as Republican policy ideas.

Democrats then implement these ideas, and Republicans act like its the end of the world. And the rest of us have to defend them like they were brilliant ideas, because in the end it beats doing nothing.

With all due respect to Chuck, who already has awarded the Internet to Midnight Marauder for his “couldn’t hear you over all that BLACK” comment, I must say that ownership of the Internet remains in contention. This is the most entertaining discussion of generally lousy news I’ve seen in a long time.

That reminds me of a funny story, there used to be a guy, I think in the comments at Steve Bainbridge’s site, who was so dumb he proudly used C-style formatting for his quotes. So his posts looked like

and despite several people trying to explain to him that even the 1% of readers who knew C style would *still* find this unpleasant to read, hence, development environments often go to the extra length of color coding those sections because it was unnatural for the human visual system to parse like that, despite explaining to him that no widely-read newspaper or magazine in history would ever use that style, despite pointing out that no commercial graphical design software implemented that as any of the dozen ways of highlighting or distinguishing a block of text, despite people telling him “I don’t read your stupid posts because I can’t tell which parts are the quotes”, he angrily persisted, never changing for the months I read that site. Because he was right. His comments were perfectly readable. The people who couldn’t read his comments were wrong.

You also forget just how many people have to die/resign in order to get a true Republican in the presidency. Gates doesn’t count since he stayed on with a Democrat. Obama’s being black just rankles them because you can’t march on the White House with a burning cross in white sheets.

No Kidding. I remember “Democrat. White.” in the 1990’s, and republicans seriously hoping a military coup would remove the murderous, treasonous villian and restore god and apple pie etc. This is even worse than that was.

John, stop playing dumb. You know perfectly well the far right has hated, is hating, and will hate everything and anything Obama does.

They will criticize the way Obama ties his shoelaces.

If Obama came up with a cure for cancer, the far right will complain that the shape of the pill is too oval.

This is the reason why: Obama reminds them that a majority of Americans rejected the far right platform when we voted for him in Nov. 2008. They hate rejection. They would rather the nation suffer no matter what now for our crime of thinking differently than they do.

This is a secondary reason: the far right thinks they can use the same playbook they used against Clinton. Accuse Clinton Obama of massive criminal wrongdoing even when the crimes are minor or not worthy of investigation. Accuse Clinton Obama of hating America. Accuse accuse accuse, and they think 2010 will play out the same way 1994 did.

This is the only reason to vote Democrat for the next 20-40 years. To teach the far right that they’re a bunch of goddamn crybabies who won’t get what they want just by throwing constant hissy fits on Fox Not-News.

What are you missing?? C’mon, John. Seriously, Jesus could return tomorrow and declare Barack Obama his right hand man and the wingnutosphere would be like “Pfffft. Just like Obama. So arrogant and elitist to be all chummy with Jesus like that. And besides, did you know Jesus didn’t object to people paying taxes to the Islamofascist regime in Rome? So don’t think he’s all that.”

I used to be really more Conservative/Independent. Back before the Southern Strategy had really come to fruition. I still have the same principles, I didn’t change. But now I obligatorily vote Dem, in the same way that if you go into the voting booth and the choice is always

choose one:

ºStale Grilled Cheese (D)

ºCat turd (R)

You obligatorily pick the stale grilled cheese, even if it’s not so great.

“President Obama spoke his speech in English It’s UnAmerican You know who else talks in English???? Ted Bundy, that’s who! and Jeffrey Dahmer!! American Patriots gave their lives to get away from the English”

Since there’s another charles johnson fella, who apparently is somewhat famous and gets a lot of commentary on this site, I should change my name to prevent confusion. I’ll change it to something else, at some point.

Here’s what I really fear. In 2010, the wingnuts are going to gain seats. The Dems will more than likely lose their 60 seat majority in the Senate. While as a progressive it pisses me off more than a little to watch the conservadems water down progressive legislation, in reality they are playing the role of the GOP before the GOP decided to go completely bat shit insane. So while it sucks, that’s the sausage factory.

2010 all that is going to change. Nothing, zero, zip is going to get passed the wingnuts when the dems can’t override a filibuster.

We’ve got serious problems in this country that are going to take more than two years to fix and if Congress freezes up, we’re fucked.

So from the Liberal viewpoint, there is no possible negative to a complete withdrawal from Afghanistan? If the country falls apart totally and enters a multi-year civil war, oh well, we’re not there, so who cares? Personally, I feel like I really don’t know the solution, but I also think the idea that one solution will result in an ultimate oasis, and one will be the beginning of world war III seems more than a little simplistic.

Oh, no. It’s just that there’s a point–say, if after 7 continuous years of involvement, the situation remains so unstable that leaving means an immediate reversion to the status quo ante–that you have to ask whether you’re accomplishing anything other than getting Americans dead.

Yes, leaving would precipitate catastrophe. That doesn’t mean that staying is in fact a better option. If things are FUBARed beyond a certain point, you might as well take the hit, because all you’re doing by staying is making yourself feel better at the cost of someone else’s life.

Obama–unlike many of us–isn’t convinced that things are that hopeless yet. He thinks that we might still be able to pull something better than catastrophe out. The fact that the right has immediately begun carping makes me suspect that they–in their hearts–don’t agree, and have switched to Operation Pin The Blame On The New Guy.

They’re traitors. Do you need a clearer explanation than that?
The Republicans have openly been the party of treason since the late 1990’s. I think it likely that a plurality of the party has been demonstrably treasonous in its views since the 1960’s when the Democrats kicked out everyone who thought the Confederacy was something to admire and they all went to the GOP.

If the country falls apart totally and enters a multi-year civil war, oh well, we’re not there, so who cares?

Status quo ante, dude. In case you weren’t paying attention, Afghanistan is already in the middle of a multi-decade civil war. It was when we got there, and all we managed to do is to give one side an advantage. If we leave, it will give the advantage back to the Taliban, but it’s far to late to talk about causing a civil war that’s been going on for a very long time.

I think, for what what I think is worth, he laid out a path in the right direction. Everything he said, deep down, no matter what the right wing say he said, was heard clearly and will be accepted — by the larger majority anyway…

I can’t venture a guess on the extent of extreme sentiments on the left or right, each alternately riven I think with extreme need for getting away from committment to somehow making everything all right through some either UN solution for the left or prayer vigil for the right…neither is real. Why do we think that solutions to this are easy and can be found without self doubt and uncertainty. The left says we just pull out — there is no consequence worth noting and the right, we stay in and again, no consequence worth noting. Each shackled to their own absolutism and righteousness that brooks no argument of any kind, ever. Its always clear in their world.

There is only pain for this exit. Laboring out of this is going to require, well – labor. Hard pushing and pulling with sweating swearing and cussing just like anything coming into this world to a new way. We are restless and pacing in anticipation of this …and not a little afraid, as is he…

“Nixon had given himself license to lie about Vietnam. The trick was devising the most politically useful lies for any given interval. Hindsight makes the pattern obvious. Nixon had taken just about every political position on Vietnam short of withdrawal–we should escalate, we should negotiate, we should bomb more, we should pause the bombing, we should pour in troops, pouring in troops would be a scandal.”

…

“Every Nixonian twist and turn on Vietnam fit a specific pattern: whatever he said, whenever he said it, was always exactly 180 degrees from the current line the president was taking.”

Forty years later, Republicans are doing the same thing to Obama on Afghanistan. Of course, they had no problem with saying that Democrats who criticized Bush on Iraq or Afghanistan were traitors.

My variation on this theme is that if Obama shit a gold brick the wingers would just whine about the smell. They are useless idiots who are wasting oxygen by breathing. I wish they’d stop. Now if not sooner.

With that said, I’m also a rather pissed at the Dems bitching about this. Not only is Obama doing exactly what he pledged to do during the campaign, but exactly what do the opponents want him to do? Just up and leave? That’s impossible given the deplorable state Afghanistan was left in by Bush. By setting the timetable in 2011, he actually has done the unthinkable: taken responsibility for his actions and not done something that will automatically be passed down the line. If for whatever reason he can begin withdrawals as scheduled in 2011 he will be the one who suffers for it. In every way he is the anti-Bush, and damn it, that’s good enough for me.

Crazy people are crazy. This explains the current GOP, and also why there is no point hoping for them to see the light. I would also guess that the majority of the country see Obama as doing the right thing on this, regardless of what the talking-heads and bloggers may say.

@Elie: That was well said. I wanted him to do what was best for him politically, and he did not do so. This is….admirable. But I’m hangin’ pretty low tonight, thinking about how close his exit strategy comes to the ’12 elections. He just made a huge gamble here, and I just don’t think this is a subject worth gambling on.

I just don’t concern myself over 9/11 anymore. There, I said it. It’s been hard-won for me since I knew some folks affected by it, but there it is. That doesn’t mean I think we should act like it never happened, but when is 9/11 going to cease to be the sole determining factor for all our foreign policy? That is not a rhetorical question and deserves thought from people who have some sway.

“Not only is Obama doing exactly what he pledged to do during the campaign, but exactly what do the opponents want him to do? Just up and leave? That’s impossible given the deplorable state Afghanistan was left in by Bush. By setting the timetable in 2011, he actually has done the unthinkable: taken responsibility for his actions and not done something that will automatically be passed down the line. If for whatever reason he can begin withdrawals as scheduled in 2011 he will be the one who suffers for it. In every way he is the anti-Bush, and damn it, that’s good enough for me.”

I don’t think he fully thought about the politics of 2010 in this decision. I think he did what he thought was “right”. We can argue about whether it indeed was the correct decision, but I think that he answered it from his core of knowledge and values, best he can. Who could ask for more?

As I said in my comment, to some, there are no considerations of risk. I think in truth there are, and they weighed heavily in his decision.

He gave it some breathing room, to extricate while staying engaged enough to protect us here and key interests in the region. You may not consider that an important issue, but I do. If you do not believe that then of course, his decision is just wrong and over done cause you would think there is no risk. That is the crux, and where you think the error term should be.

I think he got it where I think it should be. Not saying you or others will agree, but I think most will.

@Martin: I’m still trying to figure out if that is a really clever spoof or someone actually thought it would be a good idea. I’m not gonna go out and buy one, although I’m tempted. Something tells me an intact one in the box might be worth some serious dinero some day.

There’s nothing to understand, as others have pointed out. You’ll never go broke underestimating the craziness of the Republican party.

I honestly think it’s because the entire Republican/conservative political platform has been shown to be a lie. They never cared if it was true (just a means to get elected and enrich the rich), and now that it’s been proven false (i.e. global warming, evolution, gays aren’t to be second class citizens, tax cuts do not increase tax revenue, etc and so on) all they have left is the political opposition stylings of Rove, Nixon, et. al.

Frankly, the whole thing reminds me of the Eddie Izzard routine about the national anthem (“and fish in the sky… and a big monkey pie”) – where only 10% of what matters is what you say, everything else is how you look and your hand gestures. That’s the Republican party.

@Martin: I saw the commercial too. Both my brother and I turned to each other slowly then burst out loud laughing. Chia Hillary is pretty priceless too. I wonder if that was just someone hedging their bets.

Why are they upset? Obviously he didn’t listen to Future Best President Evah Dick Cheney.

Or they’re hypoctires.

Or they’re myopic.

Or they’re morons.

Judging from what I saw from Sean Hannity, probably all three.

As someone who considers himself conservative in most things, but who also thinks we can’t stay there indefinitely, I would think that these people would at least put the country’s interests first instead of hoping yet again for epic fail. Because what if it works? As far as the antiwar crowd goes, I do think some of them are acting like morons as well over this (are you listening, Andrew Sullivan?) It may be better late than never, but he is at least trying something. So you’d think the Villagers would acknowledge that, as well. Their sneering naysaying is just another reminder of how clueless they are in their neocon fantasy world of endless occupation in the name of Freedom (or something).

What are the right-wingers upset about? They got everything they wanted.

No they didn’t.

The politically-connected of the GOP, the ones who run the show, want power. Having someone else implement their agenda (and I wouldn’t even come close to saying Obama is implementing their agenda vis-a-vis Afghanistan) doesn’t count, because then the GOP doesn’t get all the goodies. The war funding, the PAC donations from defense-related corporations, the contracts they can squeal about to their constituents about.

Not getting the goodies slows the distribution of wingnut-welfare, so the chattering class of wingers will not be happy. Who’s going to buy bulk-order books or prop up foundations and publications that are hemorrhaging money if the Federal government isn’t subsidizing their paymasters?

If the chattering class of wingers isn’t happy, than the rank and file will be bombarded with nonsense and vitriol. They’ll be told America is forgetting them, and that they have no place in it, but they’ll get it all back if they just vote Republican.

They’re upset because Obama’s very existence is a testament to their utter incompetence and lack of accountability. The entirety of WWII took around 4 years, and it was driven by relentless leaders who were willing to demand results from the military and sacrifice from the general population, and who were accountable for failure. Those leaders, e.g., Marshall and Eisenhower, were sober, practical men who weren’t big on jingoistic posturing. Obama’s speech was in that same vein.

Obama basically told the military (1) I agree that you have been under resourced in Afghanistan for the past seven years because of Bush’s incompetence, but (2) if you can’t succeed in implementing relatively modest tactical goals I’m laying out in three years once you have the resources you say you need, then we should get the fuck out, because the military is obviously the wrong tool or the situation is hopeless, and America doesn’t do permanent war. He told the public that (1) don’t forget you were all for avenging 9/11 and removing the threat of al Queda, so you have to willing to carry that through, but (2) there has to be an end to this engagement because we have to get back to the business of stabilizing our own economic situation or we risk failure as a nation. He’s willing to stake his presidency on that, which is pretty ballsy.

I sympathize with those who think Afghanistan is a lost cause. It’s likely we had one shot there, which was to get bin Laden and the core al Queda/Taliban leadership and get the hell out before inflicting too much damage. Bush completely dropped the ball on that, and made it worse by letting Afghanistan languish. Obama has looked at the situation and has concluded that there may be a chance to at least mitigate some of the damage. He’s the president and, unlike Bush, I trust that he isn’t doing what he’s doing for some venal political bullshit reasons.

The republicans will never acknowledge Obama’s leadership, as that would amount to an admission of their own failure. This is the real problem we face as a country. We have a bunch of pasty-faced old guys in government, business and the media that have been allowed to live in a fantasyland where they’re Masters of the Universe, irrespective of the fact that they leave a never ending string of failures behind them.

I used to be really more Conservative/Independent. Back before the Southern Strategy had really come to fruition. I still have the same principles, I didn’t change. But now I obligatorily vote Dem, in the same way that if you go into the voting booth and the choice is always

choose one:

ºStale Grilled Cheese (D)

ºCat turd®

You obligatorily pick the stale grilled cheese, even if it’s not so great.

As for John, you’re constant lapses into this naivete about how both left and right react to things is, well, something. You’re constantly amazed at the right. Think back to your wingnut days…there, amazement should now and forever cease.

And the left, how we like to eat/shoot/crucify our own or how getting us lined up straight and to march in an orderly formation is akin to herding cats continually befuddles you. It’s who we are!

Did anybody else see the interview with President McCain this morning on ABC Good Morning America or whatever they call it?

The discussion was about Afghanistan and I don’t think he said the word Afghanistan during the entire interview. He said that he believed we could succeed in Iraq and that the Karzai government could not succeed unless we win in Iraq.

They don’t like him, so they’ll cast around for anything to hang that dislike on. Even if he gave them everything they asked for, they’d still find a freckle on his finger and use that against him. Here’s a wingnut response to the speech and why Afghanistan is just like Vietnam:

We send 30,000 troops in.
Their performance is exemplary.
We start bringing them home on President Obama’s schedule.
The Republican’s re-take Congress in 2010.
The troops are out by 2011.
Congress appropriates aid to the Afghanistan security forces equal to that the Democratic Congress appropriated to Vietnam in 1974–in constant dollars, of course.
The Afghan security forces, looking at a couple of hand grenades and one rifle magazine per soldier, see the writing on the wall and desert.
The resurgent Taliban take back the country.
Obama loses the 2012 election. He’s so unpopular, he couldn’t win it if he ran unopposed.
Obama joins Al Gore and the other global warming scammers in the Witness Protection Program. After plastic surgery, he gets a job as a high school volleyball coach and lives in obscurity for several years, until his identity is revealed when the local congressman delivers a speech at the high school and he compulsively reads the words off the teleprompter. Chased by an angry mob, he disappears into the night and is never seen again.

Only a few comments in, I can see it’s clear that everyone has the same sort of thoughts as me. These people are never going to be happy, even if Obama were to find bin Laden himself, put a bullet through his head and then cut off his head before he did a tap dance screaming “Fuck you!!!!!!!” at the top of his lungs. They are sad sacks of human beings.