I watched the Marlins and Atlanta last night, there was Salty, twice turning his head on balls in the dirt, one skipped by him, the pitcher was charged with a WP. The announcer was saying how Salty wishes he had played it differently by dropping down to the ground and simply blocking it. Good point made and it was made more evident soon afterward, another ball bounced in, Salty turned his head away, but managed to find the ball in his glove. I miss Salty, like I miss jock itch. (credit; Chuck Barris)

letting him go to sign a 3yr worth 7 mil a year is ben's worst move this season....the fact that he offered drew 2/3 of that sum for one year is revolting....more revolting still Drew declined...the mind boggles..

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Salty would not have signed here, even for significantly more money than the marlins offered him, so saying $7M x 3 is not accurate. Salty wants to play where he is appreciated and will have a FT job start to finish.

Of course, I factored in Ross with better D, but if Ross was clearly the better choice, he'd have played more before that fateful throw by Salty.

Nobody was calling for Ross to be the FT starter before that one play.

Well, there's an answer for that though.

Nobody was calling for Ross to be the FT starter before that because Ross is a career backup who typically plays one third of the games. He's not accustomed to playing every day and his body wouldn't be up to it.

But this was Game 4 of the World Series. There were a maximum of 4 games left in the season with one off day. So at that point Ross's ability to play every day was not really in question anymore.

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Was the plan all year to rest Ross, so he could play the last 4 games of the WS?

Obviously not. The tow throwing errors by Salty led to the change. Let's not pretend it was the master plan all along.

I disagree. Were that true, he'd have been a starter at some point in his career. He's played more than 100 games 1 time in his career, and he's played for 6 teams over 7 stops (this being his second round with the Sox) in 13 years. There was no reason to believe he offered anything over Salty except for Farrell's decision, whatever prompted it. I honestly HOPE it was more than 1 or 2 plays, but we don't know specifics.

Another thing I don't like is the willingness to change catchers so frequently. It can't make the Pitchers very happy. They'd gotten mostly comfortable with Salty and Ross. Ross being a part time player, obviously. Now they willingly let Salty go and bring in AJ for 1 year with the INTENTION of then switching to Vazquez, if all goes according to 'plan'. That's a rather large leap of faith, and a lot of pressure to put on the pitchers. Especially in the early parts of a season... -_-

They did the same thing when they started VMart over VTek when Beckett was pitching- a change from the regular season plan. That time, it did not work.

Was the plan all year to rest Ross, so he could play the last 4 games of the WS?

Obviously not. The tow throwing errors by Salty led to the change. Let's not pretend it was the master plan all along.

No, of course it wasn't the master plan all along. Farrell made a personnel decision based on his confidence in Ross over Salty at the time and the fact that it was Game 4 of the World Series. He felt a change needed to be made. It's not uncommon for this to happen in the postseason. Think about Crisp getting benched for Ellsbury in 2007.

If Salty was hitting better it might have made it a more difficult decision. But he was 0 for 10 in his last 3 games with a horrendous 7 K's. Add that to the defensive issues, and replacing him was a totally logical move.

Was the plan all year to rest Ross, so he could play the last 4 games of the WS?

Obviously not. The tow throwing errors by Salty led to the change. Let's not pretend it was the master plan all along.

No, of course it wasn't the master plan all along. Farrell made a personnel decision based on his confidence in Ross over Salty at the time and the fact that it was Game 4 of the World Series. He felt a change needed to be made. It's not uncommon for this to happen in the postseason. Think about Crisp getting benched for Ellsbury in 2007.

If Salty was hitting better it might have made it a more difficult decision. But he was 0 for 10 in his last 3 games with a horrendous 7 K's. Add that to the defensive issues, and replacing him was a totally logical move.

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I don't disagree. All I am saying is that I did not feel "relieved" when Ross replaced Salty.

I totally understand why the move was made, but personally, I think it was rather rash considering Middy should have caught Salty's throw.

All due respect--and you deserve that--I truly do not believe the fault was with Middlebrooks on that throw, which I don't think should have been made in the first place.

In the World Series the Sox lost two to the Cardinals with Salty behind the plate and won four with Ross behind the plate. To me the message was loud and clear: in the crunch, you can't use Salty. That simple.

And, as everyone has pointed out, there is a lot of catching talent in the Sox system right now, so committing to a guy who you can't trust in the crunch for 3 or 4 years doesn't make sense. Better to go with a couple of one year veterans. My impression is that so far the two veterans have been good for the pitching staff.

All due respect--and you deserve that--I truly do not believe the fault was with Middlebrooks on that throw, which I don't think should have been made in the first place.

It was a bad throw, but catchable.

It was a bang-bang play. In hindsght, it looks like the runner would probably be safe even with a good throw, but I don't fault Salty for trying.

In the World Series the Sox lost two to the Cardinals with Salty behind the plate and won four with Ross behind the plate. To me the message was loud and clear: in the crunch, you can't use Salty. That simple.

This about the choice made after game 2. Nobody can argue with the results. I agree.

And, as everyone has pointed out, there is a lot of catching talent in the Sox system right now, so committing to a guy who you can't trust in the crunch for 3 or 4 years doesn't make sense. Better to go with a couple of one year veterans. My impression is that so far the two veterans have been good for the pitching staff.

Again, my position is not about AJP and the kids vs Salty. Once Salty was benched, his days here were over. Both sides did not want the other.

I'm happy with our catching corps this year and our future outlook behind the plate.

These are my positions:

1) I was not "relieved" when Salty was benched. I was happy with the results, but am not thinking we won because of Ross catching instead of Salty. Maybe we lose with salty continuing at catcher- maybe not.

2) Had we not benched Salty, maybe we could have extended/re-signed him at about what he got with Florida. Maybe not. I'd like to have Salty right now at $25M/3. My plan would not be to sign him, so we can trade him, but if Vazquez or Swihart would win the job from him, then trading him would most likely net us something nice.

3) last winter, I said extend him before his price goes up or trade him, if he is not in our longterm plans. I do not think Salty was ever in Ben's longterm plans. I'm not criticizing Ben. We may not have a ring without Salty being our season long starting catcher, but it was my preference to get something for him, instead of losing him for nothing (except maybe the ring! LOL)

The risk of playing a rusty Ross was the lost offense that Salty gave us all year.

It worked out. I have no complaints, but I was not "relieved" when Salty was benched.

Ross wasn't 'rusty'. He had 9 starts the last month of the season and 4 postseason starts prior to Game 4 of the WS.

Granted he was an offensive downgrade from Salty, but what about defence? Where are you factoring that in?

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Of course, I factored in Ross with better D, but if Ross was clearly the better choice, he'd have played more before that fateful throw by Salty.

Nobody was calling for Ross to be the FT starter before that one play.

Yes, I felt better about any further throws needed by our catcher after Salty was benched, but I did not feel anywhere near "relieved" by the fact that Ross was starting over Salty.

Our offense was struggling mightily in the playoffs last year. Benching one of the best offensive catchers in MLB last year during a mighty slump was risky. I'm not arguing that it was the wrong move, but it clearly had some risks involved.

Throws by catcher rarely effect the outcomes of games. It is not usually a significant factor in winning and losing. The difference between and average throwing catcher and Salty is not as significant as many want to think it is. And besides all that, Salty's throw should have been caught or at least knocked down.

Listen, I like Ross. I was in favor of the signing. He's not that bad on offense either. He's better at throwing, but maybe worse at framing pitches and who knows who was better or worse at blocking bad pitches in the dirt. The CERA numbers pitcher by pitcher favored Ross slightly, but Salty had greatly improved his skil lset in this area over the 2 years prior to his benching. We won a ring. Nobody can argue benching Salty hurt us. I get that. I know why he was benched. I understand the reason.

I really don't think the benching was a big deal, so that is why I took issue with the word "relieved". I actually was more surprised by the Nava benching than the Salty benching, but that is another can of worms.

I'm glad Salty's off to a good start. He seemed like a hard-working guy who did everything he could to improve his weaknesses. He improved on every one, but throwing, and I'm not sure if that is something you can practice and practice to overcome a short-coming. After 17 games, he leads the majors in WAR by a catcher (+0.7). Good for him.

I'm not crying about losing him. He would not have signed with us, even if we offered more than the Marlins. The benching made sure of that. Before 2013 began, I had a feeling he was not in our long term plan and suggested that we extend him or trade him before we got nothing in return. Had we traded him last winter, could we have still won a ring? Hard to know for sure, so again, I have no complaints, but in hindsight, I wish we had traded him or let him play the rest of the WS and extended him at $25M/3. If a prospect ended up taking away his FT job, then great. We could easily trade 1-2 years left on his deal for a very useful piece. That's just my opinion, and I am in no way bashing Ben or John for the choices they made.

Salty has absolutely no pressure on him playing for the Marlins so he should be much more relaxed. He also isn't facing the same type of pitching on a daily basis so it will be interesting to see what his final stats are at years end.

Salty has absolutely no pressure on him playing for the Marlins so he should be much more relaxed. He also isn't facing the same type of pitching on a daily basis so it will be interesting to see what his final stats are at years end.

He will also have less runners to bat in, less protection behind him, and a worse park to hit in.

Salty has absolutely no pressure on him playing for the Marlins so he should be much more relaxed. He also isn't facing the same type of pitching on a daily basis so it will be interesting to see what his final stats are at years end.

He will also have less runners to bat in, less protection behind him, and a worse park to hit in.

Sox4ever

Out of those 3 factors the only one that should affect his key stats would be the park factor though.

Salty has absolutely no pressure on him playing for the Marlins so he should be much more relaxed. He also isn't facing the same type of pitching on a daily basis so it will be interesting to see what his final stats are at years end.

He will also have less runners to bat in, less protection behind him, and a worse park to hit in.

Sox4ever

Out of those 3 factors the only one that should affect his key stats would be the park factor though.

I thought that Salty was a career back up catcher that the Sox had curiously always coveted. His defense was mediocre and his throwing arm unimpressive. As for his offense, what I most remember about him were the strike outs in clutch situations. The fact that he had resumed the back up role to another journeyman in the World Series was a testament to how low his stock had fallen.

I thought that Salty was a career back up catcher that the Sox had curiously always coveted. His defense was mediocre and his throwing arm unimpressive. As for his offense, what I most remember about him were the strike outs in clutch situations. The fact that he had resumed the back up role to another journeyman in the World Series was a testament to how low his stock had fallen.

I thought that Salty was a career back up catcher that the Sox had curiously always coveted. His defense was mediocre and his throwing arm unimpressive. As for his offense, what I most remember about him were the strike outs in clutch situations. The fact that he had resumed the back up role to another journeyman in the World Series was a testament to how low his stock had fallen.

This is right on. My father-in-law is a Texas Rangers fan, and lives in that area. He had season tickets during Salty's Texas days. "Awful, just awful," was his usual comment about Salty, this from a life-long baseball fan in his 80s. Salty got better after that, but he was still awful when it mattered the most. The normally perspicacious Moonslav is just beating a dead horse with his stubborn defense of Salty. Moon likes to bring up Salty's game-winning hit in the playoffs, but the truth of that was that Salty had hit a pop-up on the pitch before that "hit" but the infielder dropped it in foul territory! So, he got another chance. Then, Salty managed a ground ball, with no outs and a man on third, through a drawn-in infield. This was his big clutch hit. The Tigers had already blown that game with a comical series of mishaps. Hearing Salty endlessly defended is to suffer an eye-rolling litany of statistical data. Drop the stats and believe your eyes. Salty is a great guy and he tries and he improves, but rejoice and be glad that he's finally playing for someone else.

The WP is a strange statistic, as it is subjective, and the onus is first upon the pitcher for throwing it poorly, and while a good catcher may prevent WP's it's hard to quantify that. In the past 10 seasons the worst performance of 58 WP's by the team were both accomplished in years that Salty played. In the 3 years before Salty arrived the Sox finished first, and fifth twice for fewest WP's in the Majors. In his second full season with the Sox, they finished 8th best, and then in his final year 5th best. I'm going to hold on to the belief that the WP is on the pitcher, and not on the catcher so much.

The WP is a strange statistic, as it is subjective, and the onus is first upon the pitcher for throwing it poorly, and while a good catcher may prevent WP's it's hard to quantify that. In the past 10 seasons the worst performance of 58 WP's by the team were both accomplished in years that Salty played. In the 3 years before Salty arrived the Sox finished first, and fifth twice for fewest WP's in the Majors. In his second full season with the Sox, they finished 8th best, and then in his final year 5th best. I'm going to hold on to the belief that the WP is on the pitcher, and not on the catcher so much.

YEAR MLB RANK

With Salty

2013 5th

2012 8th

2011 21st

2010 19th

Pre Salty

2009 5th

2008 5th

2007 1st

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I once separated Salty's WPs with Wakefield and compared his WP rate with everyone else but Wake, and I remember the numbers were better than the league average.

I also did a study on WP + PB/Inning over Salty's last 2 seasons here: he was better than average both years.

Numbers need to be taken in context. Salty had serious issues catching the knuckleball. I do not think that should be held against him to strongly.

In reply to Moonslav (without all the white space he seems to love); the advice to take numbers in context is good advice, so here's some context, even with Wakefield as the WP bogeyman, the Sox finished best in the league in 2007. Fifth best in 2008, and fifth best in 2009, all without Salty. Wake is an enigma for the WP stat, some years he was responsible for 10% of the staff total, other years 41% of the team total.

I think looking at WP/PB is a better indicator than just WP, as WP is on the pitcher. Perhaps the catcher gets some blame for calling the pitch, but it shouldn't be too much blame. Looking at these totals, it's hard to see a connection between ability and the results as the numbers are all over the board. Does a catcher forget how to catch one year, and then regain his stellar form the next?

Anyhoo, my original post was to inform as to the Marlins announcer's critique of Salty's form, something that still is an issue even now.

In other news, Salty hit an extra inning HR last night to lead the reborn Marlins over the Metropolitans!