tag:www.schneier.com,2015:/blog//2/tag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-2015-05-13T02:31:29ZComments for Cutting Wallets Out of Drunks' Pockets on New York City SubwaysA blog covering security and security technology.Movable Typetag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:724821Comment from Michael on 2012-03-19Michael
This happened to me Saturday night in downtown Brooklyn. Son of a bitch cut my pants pocket and as soon as I felt something, I reached around to my pocket and I cut myself on the knife he had. I jumped up and confronted the piece of shit(give me my wallet), which then he kept telling me to back off before he cuts me.]]>
2012-03-19T13:41:13Z2012-03-19T13:41:13Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:625539Comment from Bacopa on 2011-11-14Bacopa
I like the method The Travelers use use better. Find an older person living alone. Say you are with a home repair company and because business is slow, you're giving free estimates. say you need to come into the house to take some measurements. Steal belongs while in house. Drive away. When things come up missing you will find the business named on their stationary does not exist.]]>
2011-11-14T23:28:48Z2011-11-14T23:28:48Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:623141Comment from fellbeaste on 2011-11-11fellbeaste
Ummm -

Just where do you think the medieval term "cut purse" came from?

Before pockets & wallets came into vogue, you carried your money in a leather bag hanging off your belt...

Some things never (or very slowly) change.

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2011-11-11T22:08:41Z2011-11-11T22:08:41Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:622944Comment from Nathan Russell on 2011-11-11Nathan Russell
I think people could stand to think whether the "gypsy" crime methodologies discussed here are exclusive to those of Roma descent, and if not, whether they're being at least implicitly racist. ]]>
2011-11-11T17:09:20Z2011-11-11T17:09:20Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:621019Comment from thiefhunter on 2011-11-08thiefhunterhttp://bobarno.com/thiefhunters
Lush workers are the lowest of the pickpockets. Real scavengers. Other pickpockets use razor blades on sober people. Here's an interview with one: http://bobarno.com/thiefhunters/2010/11/how-pickpockets-use-razor-blades/

@prezzie: gypsies do not throw babies, despite the popular myth. They carry babies in slings, which you may or may not notice, so their hands are free.

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2011-11-08T21:49:57Z2011-11-08T21:49:57Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620944Comment from prezzie on 2011-11-08prezzie
Don't forget the old gypsy trick of throwing you a baby, then picking your pockets while your hands are busy playing catch.
The best defense to this attack is to simply swat the baby to the ground.]]>
2011-11-08T19:21:50Z2011-11-08T19:21:50Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620913Comment from Thunderbird on 2011-11-08Thunderbird
Interesting how many people posted links to razors that aren't "straight razors" on Amazon. Turns out there is an injector straight razor that you can . . . get on Amazon: Parker SR1 Stainless Straight Razor.

Apologies if this is in fact the same thing someone else posted and I misread the links.

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2011-11-08T18:32:13Z2011-11-08T18:32:13Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620853Comment from Tony H. on 2011-11-08Tony H.
Google images will provide a quick verification of [the popular opinion of] the difference between "straight razor" or even "straight-edge razor" and "single-edged razor [blade]".]]>
2011-11-08T16:18:10Z2011-11-08T16:18:10Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620781Comment from Adder on 2011-11-08Adder
Happened to me on a bus in SE Asia. A guy stood next to me, when I got off the bus my pants were in shreds. Never noticed a thing and he could have been working for more than 30 minutes for all I know.

Too bad for him, the hard labor didn't pay off since I never keep money in my pant pockets.

And just for the record: I was awake and sober at the time.

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2011-11-08T13:55:55Z2011-11-08T13:55:55Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620776Comment from kingsnake on 2011-11-08kingsnake
On the other hand, at least they take an entreprenurial risk, rathing than looting your mortgage, then getting their pals in government to actually compensate them for it ...]]>
2011-11-08T13:54:02Z2011-11-08T13:54:02Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620766Comment from Thomas on 2011-11-08Thomas
In my part of the world, someone drunk on the street has nothing left in his wallet, he only wanders on the street once he can't buy anymore drinks. Absolutely not a target for pick-pocketing.]]>
2011-11-08T13:27:28Z2011-11-08T13:27:28Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620635Comment from grumpy on 2011-11-08grumpy
So not only do they take my possesions but they also destroy my clothes? How nice of the old professions to bugger off... Personally I'd take the head off anyone trying this near me, blade or not. Parasites the lot. Good riddance.]]>
2011-11-08T09:41:43Z2011-11-08T09:41:43Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620609Comment from Eltomo on 2011-11-08Eltomo
Huh... Already christmas time? First Charles Dickens story I read this year. Yes, the classic pickpocket is a vanishing species. But don't worry - IT has created a lot of modern professions for the ambionated 21st century crook.]]>
2011-11-08T08:51:33Z2011-11-08T08:51:33Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620568Comment from Nick P on 2011-11-08Nick P
@ Nick N

One neat thing about those straight razors is how sharp they can get. Many modern blades "look" like they'd be sharper, but I was amazed when my uncle pulled one out & let me test it. He still uses it to this day.

I got to experience one myself a few years back. We were in a very rural town. I needed a hair cut and side burns trimmed. Kind of a military-like cut at the time. Old guy cuts my hair, then goes for the side burns. I'm expecting him to pull out an electric shaver & suddenly he flips out a straight razor. I was thinking, "Seriously? You still use those?" It did the job, but had me a bit nervous lol.

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2011-11-08T07:53:20Z2011-11-08T07:53:20Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620526Comment from David on 2011-11-08David
@Nick: "I do! I've been using a straight razor since I started shaving, going on about 15 years now. There are quite a few of us around."

Presumably that would explain your name!

(extra points for the gratuitous "Topper Harley" reference?)

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2011-11-08T06:47:33Z2011-11-08T06:47:33Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620453Comment from Nick N on 2011-11-07Nick N
"I thought: Heh - "straight-edge razors found in any hardware store". New York must have different hardware stores from the kind around here."

Nope, either old ones from antique stores and restore them yourself or new/restored ones from online stores/eBay.

"What is the legitimate use for such dual-use technology? How many people do you know who shave themselves this way?"

I do! I've been using a straight razor since I started shaving, going on about 15 years now. There are quite a few of us around.

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2011-11-08T05:05:03Z2011-11-08T05:05:03Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620241Comment from kingsnake on 2011-11-07kingsnake
I get the NYT print and read that article. I found it amusing how they talk about it being a recent phenomenon. ("Recent" being within the past 100 years.) The technique probably dates back to the bronze age (or as long as sharp objects and purses have existed). Here;s one reference that dates it back to at least the 14th century ...

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2011-11-07T22:45:46Z2011-11-07T22:45:46Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620204Comment from buherator on 2011-11-07buherator
Is this something to write an article about, are you serious?! In the less fortunate parts of the world this is as common as muck. And I have to say, ordinary pocket pickers are real gentlemen compared to these "lush worker" scumbags who always find those who can't punch them in the face if she wakes up during the manoeuvre. ]]>
2011-11-07T21:39:21Z2011-11-07T21:39:21Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620203Comment from Nick P on 2011-11-07Nick P
@ VinceMulhollon

Terrible idea. You have to pay the woman & buy the drinks. Simply taking wallets from already-drunk people is far more profitable & there's nobody for the police to "flip" to put you in jail.

@ Bill

Especially clever move by the Gypsies. It would have to be a noisy or crowded street though because I figure there's no way to catch the large number of items that might fall from a purse. All the racket should make someone take notice.

@ Tony H

It's obvious he was talking about a straight-edged razor blade. Heck, even the blades in my box cutter could do the job. Can't find any? Is there actually not a Walmart in your area?

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2011-11-07T21:39:18Z2011-11-07T21:39:18Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620189Comment from Eric on 2011-11-07Eric
@Tony H: Not a straight razor, a straight-edged razor like utility knives use.

@Jarod: They'd never use a double-edged razor too much risk of self-injury. They use these so they can apply pressure without risk to themselves.

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2011-11-07T21:02:00Z2011-11-07T21:02:00Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620181Comment from luca on 2011-11-07luca
another somewhat obscure use for razor blades is (was?) in technical drafting. I used to use them to correct small mistakes on paper vellum, by scratching off a thin layer of paper. Oh wait, non computer aided technical drafting is also gone the way of the dodo.]]>
2011-11-07T20:45:58Z2011-11-07T20:45:58Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620170Comment from Lenka on 2011-11-07Lenka
I'd like to second William's suggestion for PacSafe bags. I used one for two months while living in Istanbul and my husband used his for months on end while living in China, and neither of us had theft issues. I suspect that I was targeted a few times, but those with slippery hands were never successful, given the unexpected surprise of a zipper locked with a carabiner!]]>
2011-11-07T20:28:14Z2011-11-07T20:28:14Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620160Comment from Jarod on 2011-11-07Jarod
Tony H:

These things are small and extremely handy, even after dulled by a couple shaves. My own theory is that this trade is dwindling because no one uses a safety razor anymore.

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2011-11-07T20:08:24Z2011-11-07T20:08:24Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620151Comment from Albatross on 2011-11-07Albatross
Interesting to me are the ones who approach you in a train station with a tray of crap they want to sell you. What you don't notice is that under the tray their hands are free to pick your pocket.

I read a book before visiting Morocco in 1979 that said to watch out for child pickpockets. At one point we ran into an old man displaying a large snake in a public square. I realized this was the distraction, and sure enough while everyone was watching the snake children younger than ten were weaving through the crowd picking pockets.

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2011-11-07T19:57:44Z2011-11-07T19:57:44Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620144Comment from William on 2011-11-07William
For urban areas and much of eastern Europe I highly recommend PacSafe bags. Embedded wire mesh prevents the slash attack from working. ]]>
2011-11-07T19:52:15Z2011-11-07T19:52:15Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620136Comment from karrde on 2011-11-07karrdehttp://wildekarrde.mee.nu
@Bill:

I was going to say, this reminds me of a specialized case of 'cutpurse'.

as elucidated by @Eric and @NoOne, there are good reasons why cut-purse is a more efficient method of robbing drunks than hold-up or honey-trap.

*shrug*
The names/titles of the crimes may vary from place to place...theft, robbery, larceny...each jurisdiction uses them a little differently. The key here is one of them is a crime of opportunity and taking advantage in a stealth like manner, the other is pure intimidation/threat of bodily injury.

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2011-11-07T19:31:36Z2011-11-07T19:31:36Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620130Comment from Bill on 2011-11-07Bill
When I was last in Bucharest, the gypsies use a box cutter to slice open women's purses / bags along the bottom. A friend of mine had this happen to her, while sober, in a busy downtown area in broad daylight. The entire crime takes about 3 or 4 seconds. She even had her purse up close to her body, under her arm. The gypsy "inadvertently" bumped into her in a crowded area. She never felt the purse being pulled because it wasn't. A quick slice at the same time as the bump, then the contents just fall out. By the time she realized the purse was light, the gypsy was long gone.]]>
2011-11-07T19:19:55Z2011-11-07T19:19:55Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620125Comment from No One on 2011-11-07No One
Addendum for VinceMulhollon:
4. Assuming you can cut more pockets than you can get men pass-out-drunk in a night.]]>
2011-11-07T19:11:25Z2011-11-07T19:11:25Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620123Comment from Eric on 2011-11-07Eric
I think pick-pockets of all kind are a dying breed in New York.

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2011-11-07T19:10:09Z2011-11-07T19:10:09Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620120Comment from No One on 2011-11-07No One
0. Assuming cutting a pocket is simpler than lifting.
1. And assuming you can't mug people with a box cutter on a crowded train many times in one night.
2. And assuming drunks are good targets -- they are more unaware of their environment than sober people.
3. And assuming drunks are more unpredictable in their response to being mugged than a sober person.

Put all those together and cutting the pockets of drunks is a reasonable method of stealing.

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2011-11-07T19:08:31Z2011-11-07T19:08:31Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620118Comment from VinceMulhollon on 2011-11-07VinceMulhollon
+NobodySpecial it would be simpler and safer to use a "weapon" with no risk of wounding the victim, like, say, a hot woman buys him a couple more drinks before he leaves, he thinks he's getting some, he passes out in the alley, hot woman's boyfriend simply picks up wallet from unconscious victim. Also beer goggle effect means hotness is, um, easier to achieve.]]>
2011-11-07T19:05:19Z2011-11-07T19:05:19Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620115Comment from Tony H. on 2011-11-07Tony H.
I thought: Heh - "straight-edge razors found in any hardware store". New York must have different hardware stores from the kind around here. I don't even know where I'd go to buy a straight razor - a barber supply place? What is the legitimate use for such dual-use technology? How many people do you know who shave themselves this way?

Then I realized they were talking about single-edged razor blades - the kind you use to scrape paint off a window and such. Maybe just another regional terminology quirk, or maybe the writer simply got it wrong.

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2011-11-07T19:04:28Z2011-11-07T19:04:28Ztag:www.schneier.com,2011:/blog//2.4101-comment:620109Comment from NobodySpecial on 2011-11-07NobodySpecial
Wouldn't cutting a pocket be a low skill version of pick pocketing?

It's also riskier for the thief. He has a weapon so is more likely to be shot by the police or victim and presumably more chance of an assault with a deadly weapon / aggravated robbery charge than a real pick pocket?

So if you are going to take this risk why not just put the knife in the victims face and ask for their wallet?