Zero_Sum wrote:What else is there concerning any kind of government other than the system or implementation of power benefiting the powerful? Please tell me what else there is.

Benefiting other people besides the powerful, for example. Remember, the question posed is not whether or not Governments benefit the powerful, but rather they just benefit the powerful. It seems to me there are Governments that also benefit the weak.

I think it's inevitable that Governments benefit at least the powerful, just because by definition any social structure is going to have somebody at the top, and any extremely elaborate social structure is going to have people that can manipulate the rules to their own benefit. But it's incorrect to say that that's all a State is for, or to put the cart before the horse and say that exploitation is why the state exists.

In what way are the weak or powerless protected and socially elevated?

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Greatest I am wrote:Yet Hitler's broad system of genocide against the Jews can be seen as the single motivator for Hitler and his entourage.

RegardsDL

That really doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying, but it's also retarded. No, elimination of Jews was obviously not the single motivation of Hitler and the Nazi party.

Tell that to the Jews.

RegardsDL

Elephant in the room. A conversation for another time perhaps to not detract from the current subject.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Zero_Sum wrote:I agree that we are being brainwashed and dumbed down. The rank and file just keep following the liars.

All we can do is continue to put the truth out here.

RegardsDL

I am more optimistic as I see a French type revolution on the way in many countries.

Sure, we are dumbed down but not to the point I think you are saying.

One country will begin by bringing their oligarchs to heel and be better contributors to the whole, and that will force other countries to do the same as they will demand a level playing field.

The U.S. or China should led on this but it seems that both countries have lost their zeal for justice and have allowed their oligarchs to rule from behind the throne.

RegardsDL

Certainly fighting back against the global systemic form of tyranny will be a reality eventually but not until after the collapse, the global oligarchy at this point is too powerful and pervasive at the moment to be challenged in any kind of serious way. A great deal of many powerful people have died trying and have been squashed. With everybody being so divided also I don't believe it will be a singular movement either but instead a variety of movements vying for legitimacy in the vacuum of power after collapse. Civil war and strife will become common play. What comes after that nobody knows.

I do not think we will reach a point of collapse or violence before brighter minds form groups to study the situation and make suggestions.

But if it does go to violence, it will likely surprise all of us as to how few people need to die so that the rest of us can progress in a more equitable world.

Zero_Sum wrote:In what way are the weak or powerless protected and socially elevated?

I don't know what "socially elevated" means, but weak or powerless are protected in many states through social welfare programs, police, and services such as roads, schools and so on which are either free or else unattainable without a state to organize them. They're protected from potential invaders by the military, protected from disease by water treatment systems, immunizations, and so on. All kinds of stuff.

And of course in some Governments the weak and powerless are exploited and brutalized. And in some Governments it's a mix of both. You just can't generalize about it.

I do not recommend violence but the world cannot be held hostage by so few and if a rebellion or civil war is required here or there, so be it.

RegardsDL

The smartest and brightest are the first to be bought off. I don't believe any kind of intelligentsia will swoop in and save the day. I certainly don't have any kind of faith in such people myself. For me only a violent armed form of rebellion will change anything, everything else is co-opted. Armies get things done not simple protests and certainly not the co-opted intelligentsia.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

I do not recommend violence but the world cannot be held hostage by so few and if a rebellion or civil war is required here or there, so be it.

RegardsDL

The smartest and brightest are the first to be bought off. I don't believe any kind of intelligentsia will swoop in and save the day. I certainly don't have any kind of faith in such people myself. For me only a violent armed form of rebellion will change anything, everything else is co-opted. Armies get things done not simple protests and certainly not the co-opted intelligentsia.

Perhaps I should have said moral intelligentsia.

The French Revolution, just to name one, was led by the people and not the army, which was controlled by the rich.

Any such revolution must have the population behind it or it is bound to fail. The French Revolution itself was not the best way to do things, as they had not planned for the substitution of governance well, but it is touted as having brought democracy to the West.

Zero_Sum wrote:In what way are the weak or powerless protected and socially elevated?

I don't know what "socially elevated" means, but weak or powerless are protected in many states through social welfare programs, police, and services such as roads, schools and so on which are either free or else unattainable without a state to organize them. They're protected from potential invaders by the military, protected from disease by water treatment systems, immunizations, and so on. All kinds of stuff.

And of course in some Governments the weak and powerless are exploited and brutalized. And in some Governments it's a mix of both. You just can't generalize about it.

Public welfare is a kind of state enslavement and patronage. Police enforce laws commanded by the establishment. Public infrastructure is just a way of publicly maintaining the controlled plantation or reservation. State militaries are armed mercenaries at the state's disposal for the acquisition of resources.

Sorry, I just can't see what you do.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

I do not recommend violence but the world cannot be held hostage by so few and if a rebellion or civil war is required here or there, so be it.

RegardsDL

The smartest and brightest are the first to be bought off. I don't believe any kind of intelligentsia will swoop in and save the day. I certainly don't have any kind of faith in such people myself. For me only a violent armed form of rebellion will change anything, everything else is co-opted. Armies get things done not simple protests and certainly not the co-opted intelligentsia.

Perhaps I should have said moral intelligentsia.

The French Revolution, just to name one, was led by the people and not the army, which was controlled by the rich.

Any such revolution must have the population behind it or it is bound to fail. The French Revolution itself was not the best way to do things, as they had not planned for the substitution of governance well, but it is touted as having brought democracy to the West.

RegardsDL

I am a bit of a skeptic concerning human morality and ethics so I don't share your views. Eventually however when things get so horrible people will organize themselves in the name of their own self interests of survival (common people), that is a given, however nobody will agree to any singular specific point of view hence why we'll see multiple revolutionaries instead of just one. There will be much infighting everywhere. I can't really say I have much faith in democracy either.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Zero_Sum wrote:Public welfare is a kind of state enslavement and patronage. Police enforce laws commanded by the establishment. Public infrastructure is just a way of publicly maintaining the controlled plantation or reservation. State militaries are armed mercenaries at the state's disposal for the acquisition of resources.

Sorry, I just can't see what you do.

You can characterize things as cynically as you want, it doesn't change the fact that many states give their citizens food, shelter, and protection from crime, disease, and war. Like for example this:

". Public infrastructure is just a way of publicly maintaining the controlled plantation or reservation."

All you're doing here is ascribing motive. First of all, it makes no sense to ascribe motives to hypothetical people (we aren't even talking about some particular state or another), and secondly the motive has nothing to do with whether or not the poor people are benefited. If all Government authorities are cackling supervillains in the way you describe and create roads and libraries to 'maintain the controlled planatation', that doesn't change the fact that the poor get to benefit from roads and libraries.

Zero_Sum wrote:Public welfare is a kind of state enslavement and patronage. Police enforce laws commanded by the establishment. Public infrastructure is just a way of publicly maintaining the controlled plantation or reservation. State militaries are armed mercenaries at the state's disposal for the acquisition of resources.

Sorry, I just can't see what you do.

You can characterize things as cynically as you want, it doesn't change the fact that many states give their citizens food, shelter, and protection from crime, disease, and war. Like for example this:

". Public infrastructure is just a way of publicly maintaining the controlled plantation or reservation."

All you're doing here is ascribing motive. First of all, it makes no sense to ascribe motives to hypothetical people (we aren't even talking about some particular state or another), and secondly the motive has nothing to do with whether or not the poor people are benefited. If all Government authorities are cackling supervillains in the way you describe and create roads and libraries to 'maintain the controlled planatation', that doesn't change the fact that the poor get to benefit from roads and libraries.

Yes, a herd of cattle benefits from a barn and constant feed also. Like I said, we will not see eye to eye on this in the same manner and yes, I am quite very cynical when it comes to the course of human civilization. If we're to speak of crime not a single day goes by where all governments aren't committing some or many.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Zero_Sum wrote:The smartest and brightest are the first to be bought off. I don't believe any kind of intelligentsia will swoop in and save the day. I certainly don't have any kind of faith in such people myself. For me only a violent armed form of rebellion will change anything, everything else is co-opted. Armies get things done not simple protests and certainly not the co-opted intelligentsia.

Perhaps I should have said moral intelligentsia.

The French Revolution, just to name one, was led by the people and not the army, which was controlled by the rich.

Any such revolution must have the population behind it or it is bound to fail. The French Revolution itself was not the best way to do things, as they had not planned for the substitution of governance well, but it is touted as having brought democracy to the West.

RegardsDL[/quote]

I am a bit of a skeptic concerning human morality and ethics so I don't share your views. Eventually however when things get so horrible people will organize themselves in the name of their own self interests of survival (common people), that is a given, however nobody will agree to any singular specific point of view hence why we'll see multiple revolutionaries instead of just one. There will be much infighting everywhere. I can't really say I have much faith in democracy either.[/quote]

Neither do I as I do not think it really exists anywhere.

I do not see this as a question of morality towards the poor as we have that under good control.

I think that we the people are seeking a better and more moral way for self-pride more than anything else. We are becoming more moral in our thinking and are tired of the rich holding us back from the better systems we can envisage.

I still can't say I hold much faith or credibility in human morality and ethics I_Am.

We'll have to disagree on that note.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Greatest I am wrote:Pride, not poverty will and should be our focus. We should seek to rule for honor and duty, not for the cash.

We already had noblesse oblige and the divine right of kings. The left (plagiarizing Machiavelli) flushed them.

And yet all political parties are purely Machiavellian.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Zero_Sum wrote:And yet all political parties are purely Machiavellian.

That's another one of those generalizations you can't prove or even give evidence for that is based fully on faith that your audience will be as cynical as you are.

Can you prove otherwise? I think not.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

Greatest I am wrote:Pride, not poverty will and should be our focus. We should seek to rule for honor and duty, not for the cash.

We already had noblesse oblige and the divine right of kings. The left (plagiarizing Machiavelli) flushed them.

The peasants came up with the right of kings?

Who knew?

RegardsDL

Good analogy.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

No, neither of us can prove vast sweeping generalizations about what's going on in the minds of millions of anonymous strangers. But I didn't make a claim along those lines, I simply poked fun of yours. If "you can't prove I'm wrong" is the only thing you have in support of a position, that position sucks and you should get a new one.

Sorry, I'm afraid not. I've read everything on the subject and nothing convinces me of any kind of validity.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

No, neither of us can prove vast sweeping generalizations about what's going on in the minds of millions of anonymous strangers. But I didn't make a claim along those lines, I simply poked fun of yours. If "you can't prove I'm wrong" is the only thing you have in support of a position, that position sucks and you should get a new one.

You obviously disagree with me otherwise there wouldn't be any opposition to what I'm saying which means you're obviously trying to prove the direct opposite of my position for if you weren't, what are you arguing?

I should get a new one? Humor me, what would that be?

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie

The decline in physical violence can be ascertained only because of the modern digital surveillance state and in combination with modern CSI practices of law enforcement. No, surprise there when it is hard to have a fart in the wind without FEDS or government agencies knowing about it. Organized crime hasn't been able to recover very well with the initiation of the internet era. Nonetheless, this same surveillance is an asset of the tyrannical state which is why the state is lawless because it controls and surveys all information now. The state's reach towards anybody has become limitless.

It has made the tyranny of the state that much more bolder in feeling invulnerable to which it is in the age where anonymity has become a thing of the past. You trade in obvious straight forward violence for security of a state that uses subtle quieter forms of violence in a silent war against the populace. Do we live in a safer world? No, I tend to disagree with that assessment.

Pinkerton is an establishment cheerleading whore.

"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”― Robert A. Heinlein

"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie