I am new to this forum and hoping for some suggestions in defining (the practice of) my faith.

I was raised (novus ordo) Roman Catholic but through my own research and experience in recent years I have been significantly drawn first by my family towards tradition Roman Catholicism and later by my spouse towards Russian Orthodoxy. I am particularly drawn to the eastern liturgy, but I am also convinced of papal primacy (if not supremacy). I am also quite familiar with the arguments of legitimacy on both sides, but even so, I am convinced that Roman Catholicism and Russian Orthodoxy are not mutually exclusive because both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are of one Apostolic Faith, and it is for this reason I believe unity of the Eastern and Western Churches is inevitable. Not to mention that unity is my greatest hope simply for the fact that I have come to respect and adore aspects of both traditions! I have decided, therefore, that the reasonable compromise, for my situation and in accordance with my beliefs, is to become a Russian Byzantine Catholic. But my question is how to realize that faith/practice?

I believe it is vitally important for a person and his/her family both spiritually and sacramentally to be a member of a church/parish in order to nurture and develop his/her faith. Fortunately where I live, I am able to go to a Latin Tridentine Mass, a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Liturgy, and a Russian Orthodox Liturgy, so I alternate going to each one. I am not, however, able to go to a Russian Byzantine Catholic Church. My spouse is (and so far will be nothing but) Russian Orthodox. My children were baptized Roman Catholic but are still very young. If we go to the Russian Orthodox Liturgy, neither I nor my children can receive Communion. If we go to the Roman Mass or Byzantine Liturgy, my wife cannot receive Communion.

Can a person in my situation legitimately live a Russian Byzantine Catholic Faith? If so, how would I go about doing it? Or would it be best, all things considered, to just pick a side (Catholic or Orthodox) and just go with it?

If you're not sold on Papal Infallibility or Papal Supremacy, I'd suggest doing some digging around in Church documents (particularly the Vatican 1 definitions and anathemas here (http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm), the relevant sections regarding the Pope being session 4 as well as the more recent Lumen Gentium (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)) and seeing if either of those two teachings sit well with you. If you like the East and can accept every single doctrine and dogma that Rome puts out, then Eastern Catholic is a good choice for you. If you can't really accept those two dogmas, then Russian Orthodox would be the route you want to take.

If you want to look through some early church documents and do some additional homework, then http://www.ccel.org/ is a good bet; the section titled Church Fathers on the right will give you all sorts of good stuff, including the first seven Ecumenical Councils, and loads of writings from the Church Fathers.

Above all, take your time discerning, pray for guidance, and talk to both a Catholic priest and an Orthodox priest to help your understanding. :)

Can I ask what makes you think the Russian Byzantine Catholic is your best choice? Especially over Ruthenian? Is that just because your wife is Russian Orthodox so you want to keep the Russian aspect? If you believe that the unity of the true church is hinged on Rome, then you should be Catholic and it doesn't really matter if you're Latin Rite, N.O.Roman Rite, or one of the Eastern Catholic churches since you would necessarily believe that all are equally true, if one tradition just serves your journey to God better.

If you and your children remain Catholic, you should obviously talk to a priest, but I can't see why you wouldn't be able to use the same prayer books as your wife to keep a unified tradition at home. Maybe I'm missing something.

Just as an aside, the anathemas of Vatican I have not survived in the cannon so it is not as cut and dry as that. I would recommend Klaus Shatz Papal Primacy as ah really balanced look at the topic. Although he is a Catholic, he presents a very scholarly take and does not gloss over these challenges.

Can I ask what makes you think the Russian Byzantine Catholic is your best choice? Especially over Ruthenian? Is that just because your wife is Russian Orthodox so you want to keep the Russian aspect?

If you and your children remain Catholic, you should obviously talk to a priest, but I can't see why you wouldn't be able to use the same prayer books as your wife to keep a unified tradition at home. Maybe I'm missing something.

Yes, because my wife is Russian Orthodox. Besides the fact that I have been particularly drawn to the Russian tradition, if I go the route of Russian Byzantine Catholic I figure I would most be able to participate in my wife's faith, i.e. prayer books, liturgy, etc., without giving up being Catholic...same for my kids. (There sure is a lot to learn!)

If you believe that the unity of the true church is hinged on Rome, then you should be Catholic and it doesn't really matter if you're Latin Rite, N.O.Roman Rite, or one of the Eastern Catholic churches since you would necessarily believe that all are equally true, if one tradition just serves your journey to God better.

Just as an aside, the anathemas of Vatican I have not survived in the cannon so it is not as cut and dry as that. I would recommend Klaus Shatz Papal Primacy as ah really balanced look at the topic. Although he is a Catholic, he presents a very scholarly take and does not gloss over these challenges.

I believe that the unity of the true church is hinged on the Apostolic tradition, and I am not about to try and decide who the winner of the debate between East and West is if the leadership of the respective Churches haven't been able to do it for 1000 years. That is not to say, of course, that my research will not continue in earnest! Thank you for the suggested research sources.

If you're not sold on Papal Infallibility or Papal Supremacy, I'd suggest doing some digging around in Church documents (particularly the Vatican 1 definitions and anathemas here (http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm), the relevant sections regarding the Pope being session 4 as well as the more recent Lumen Gentium (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)) and seeing if either of those two teachings sit well with you. If you like the East and can accept every single doctrine and dogma that Rome puts out, then Eastern Catholic is a good choice for you. If you can't really accept those two dogmas, then Russian Orthodox would be the route you want to take.

Great sites, thank you. The teachings sit well enough with me because of the sources (authors) and references (tradition and Saints' writings). But the same can be said for the Orthodox argument: The the original Gospel greek texts cited could be (and have been) interpreted a bit differently, and for every tradition and Saint cited in the West, there is a seemingly equal and opposite tradition and Saint in the East.

If you want to look through some early church documents and do some additional homework, then http://www.ccel.org/ is a good bet; the section titled Church Fathers on the right will give you all sorts of good stuff, including the first seven Ecumenical Councils, and loads of writings from the Church Fathers.

If you want to be specifically Russian Eastern Catholic, then you should know that only a few churches exist in the whole world, so this is likely not a viable option. I think all of the Roman Catholic churches in Russia are Latin rite. To be Russian is to be Orthodox, at least for most people.

If you want to be specifically Russian Eastern Catholic, then you should know that only a few churches exist in the whole world, so this is likely not a viable option.

That was the crux of my question...that is the challenge: Am I (sufficiently) Russian Byzantine Catholic if without a church/parish I were to practice the full Russian Orthodox Faith, yet retain allegience to Rome? Solovyov seemed to think so. Or must I choose a more "viable" option?

There's more ukrainian eastern catholic churches ,,some use the Old Church Slovanic ,that the Russian Othodox church uses....You Can Pretend it's a russian eastern Catholic Church,,but i would go for the Real Mc Coy the Russian Orthodox Church...Because the Other ones Are very pale imitation of Holy Orthodoxy...why settle for a cheap copy..... ;D

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable. A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise. It is just that simple.

It appears from your replies that you are by conviction Roman Catholic, but have come to appreciate the "Byzantine" rite and some of the Russian ethnic customs grounded in the Orthodox faith. But even if you were able to find a papal church with the Byzantine rite and Russian ethnic customs, it would still not be an Orthodox Church, and your wife would not be able to commune.

It is a sad and lamentable situation, but you and your wife are members of two separated churches: you may not take communion in your wife's Church and she may not do so in yours. There is no resolution here unless one of you converts to the other's faith.

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable. A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise. It is just that simple.

Yes. While a Byzantine Catholic priest might allow your wife to take communion at his parish, she would be turning her back on Orthodoxy by doing so.

Papal supremacy/ infalliblity are not just local variations of the Christian tradition- they have been proclaimed as universal dogmas by Rome. One can only accept or reject them. If you accept them, you can't be Orthodox. If you reject them, it doesn't make any sense to remain under Rome, since you fall under anathema.

It is a sad and lamentable situation, but you and your wife are members of two separated churches: you may not take communion in your wife's Church and she may not do so in yours. There is no resolution here unless one of you converts to the other's faith.

I would expect the correspondent knows the legalisms of the situation.

I think he is asking about how to forge a shared spiritual life in a deplorable situation of schism.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

You may certainly keep whatever Orthodox calendar that your wife keeps and use a Russian Orthodox prayerbook for your family's prayer discipline. Learning more about and coming to a genuine desire to venerate Russian Orthodox saints should be a focus of your new life...while keeping those of your own tradition that you hold dear.

One of the best things that you can take away from a Forum such as this one is a broad exposure to saints of all ages across all Orthodox confessions.

You'll need to receive sacraments and if I were you, I'd find an eastern Catholic Church with a pastor who is sympathetic to your family's needs and simply stick with them, regardless of the jurisdiction.

If you are juggling old and new calendar then I suggest strongly that you choose your wife's calendar, following that most closely with your prayer discipline, and do your best to be mindful enough of your own eastern Calendar not to be totally lost on the days when you attend liturgy there.

Keeping visual elements of both liturgical seasons in the house will help the children as they grow to move into the liturgical life of both Churches seamlessly for eventually, over the years, their own internal clocks will tell them where they are on which calendar...like muscle memory.

I wish you well and pray that God is merciful and generous to you and your family.

There's more ukrainian eastern catholic churches ,,some use the Old Church Slovanic ,that the Russian Othodox church uses....You Can Pretend it's a russian eastern Catholic Church,,but i would go for the Real Mc Coy the Russian Orthodox Church...Because the Other ones Are very pale imitation of Holy Orthodoxy...why settle for a cheap copy..... ;D

I have not attended a Ukranian Catholic Church, but here is no doubt, at least where I am, that the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic liturgy/practices "visually" pale in comparison to the Russian Orthodox with respect to eastern/traditional orthodoxy. I cannot comment as to authenticity, of course.

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable. A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise. It is just that simple.

It appears from your replies that you are by conviction Roman Catholic, but have come to appreciate the "Byzantine" rite and some of the Russian ethnic customs grounded in the Orthodox faith. But even if you were able to find a papal church with the Byzantine rite and Russian ethnic customs, it would still not be an Orthodox Church, and your wife would not be able to commune.

It is a sad and lamentable situation, but you and your wife are members of two separated churches: you may not take communion in your wife's Church and she may not do so in yours. There is no resolution here unless one of you converts to the other's faith.

I guess that is what I am trying to figure out: whether the two paths are reconcilable. I actually think they may be...to a point. I am not trying to reconcile the churches per se, I am simply trying to reconcile my faith/spritual life with my convictions and family situation as best as possible. The differences between the churches are viewed differently from each side. I as a Catholic can and am encouraged to participate in the Sacraments of the Orthodox Church because the Sacraments are viewed as legitimate...the Orthodox simply won't let me. While for my Orthodox wife, the Catholic Church welcomes her participation in the Sacraments, but the Orthodox Church forbids it. This has led me to think that I can be a practicing Russian Orthodox, but with allegiance to Rome. Reception of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church will have to be done "on the side", as bad as that sounds.

There's more ukrainian eastern catholic churches ,,some use the Old Church Slovanic ,that the Russian Othodox church uses....You Can Pretend it's a russian eastern Catholic Church,,but i would go for the Real Mc Coy the Russian Orthodox Church...Because the Other ones Are very pale imitation of Holy Orthodoxy...why settle for a cheap copy..... ;D

Exactly! Choosing an Eastern Rite papal church over an Orthodox Catholic Church would be like choosing a zircon over a diamond. Why take a imitation when you are offered the real thing? Pretending its a diamond doesn't make it so!

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable. A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise. It is just that simple.

Yes. While a Byzantine Catholic priest might allow your wife to take communion at his parish, she would be turning her back on Orthodoxy by doing so.

Papal supremacy/ infalliblity are not just local variations of the Christian tradition- they have been proclaimed as universal dogmas by Rome. One can only accept or reject them. If you accept them, you can't be Orthodox. If you reject them, it doesn't make any sense to remain under Rome, since you fall under anathema.

This has led me to think that I can be a practicing Russian Orthodox, but with allegiance to Rome. Reception of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church will have to be done "on the side", as bad as that sounds.

You would be committing blasphemy while receiving Communion in the Orthodox Church

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable. A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise. It is just that simple.

Yes. While a Byzantine Catholic priest might allow your wife to take communion at his parish, she would be turning her back on Orthodoxy by doing so.

Papal supremacy/ infalliblity are not just local variations of the Christian tradition- they have been proclaimed as universal dogmas by Rome. One can only accept or reject them. If you accept them, you can't be Orthodox. If you reject them, it doesn't make any sense to remain under Rome, since you fall under anathema.

I do not reject papal supremacy/infallibility.

Then its best you stay where you are or be satisfied with a zicon rather than a diamond. The word COMMUNION designates 'Common Union'. There is no common union between the Orthodox Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church at this time. To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas. You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church. That is Protestantism. And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

You may certainly keep whatever Orthodox calendar that your wife keeps and use a Russian Orthodox prayerbook for your family's prayer discipline. Learning more about and coming to a genuine desire to venerate Russian Orthodox saints should be a focus of your new life...while keeping those of your own tradition that you hold dear.

One of the best things that you can take away from a Forum such as this one is a broad exposure to saints of all ages across all Orthodox confessions.

You'll need to receive sacraments and if I were you, I'd find an eastern Catholic Church with a pastor who is sympathetic to your family's needs and simply stick with them, regardless of the jurisdiction.

If you are juggling old and new calendar then I suggest strongly that you choose your wife's calendar, following that most closely with your prayer discipline, and do your best to be mindful enough of your own eastern Calendar not to be totally lost on the days when you attend liturgy there.

Keeping visual elements of both liturgical seasons in the house will help the children as they grow to move into the liturgical life of both Churches seamlessly for eventually, over the years, their own internal clocks will tell them where they are on which calendar...like muscle memory.

I will take your suggestions to heart. Much of what you mention I have already tried to implement and may be the best I can do.

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable. A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise. It is just that simple.

Yes. While a Byzantine Catholic priest might allow your wife to take communion at his parish, she would be turning her back on Orthodoxy by doing so.

Papal supremacy/ infalliblity are not just local variations of the Christian tradition- they have been proclaimed as universal dogmas by Rome. One can only accept or reject them. If you accept them, you can't be Orthodox. If you reject them, it doesn't make any sense to remain under Rome, since you fall under anathema.

I do not reject papal supremacy/infallibility.

Then the case is closed on your Orthodoxy. You accept the Vatican's claims, so you belong to the Vatican.

This has led me to think that I can be a practicing Russian Orthodox, but with allegiance to Rome. Reception of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church will have to be done "on the side", as bad as that sounds.

You would be committing blasphemy while receiving Communion in the Orthodox Church

I do not intend to receive (nor am I allowed by the priest to receive) Communion in the Orthodox Church as long as I remain a Catholic.

I did not state that I 'accept' or 'reject' papal supremacy/infallibility. That was (obviously) a failed attempt to inject a bit of humor into the discussion...with no intention of making light of the subject.

This has led me to think that I can be a practicing Russian Orthodox, but with allegiance to Rome.

No, you cannot. The reason why your wife cannot partake of the sacraments in the RCC and you cannot partake of the sacraments in the OC is because you each belong to a different Church. You are not part of the same community, not in communion. As long as you hold Catholic beliefs, you cannot be a member of the Orthodox Church or participate in her sacramental life. (Your personal prayer and devotional life is something else.)

Quote

Reception of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church will have to be done "on the side", as bad as that sounds.

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas. You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church. That is Protestantism.

If you're not sold on Papal Infallibility or Papal Supremacy, I'd suggest doing some digging around in Church documents (particularly the Vatican 1 definitions and anathemas here (http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm), the relevant sections regarding the Pope being session 4 as well as the more recent Lumen Gentium (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)) and seeing if either of those two teachings sit well with you. If you like the East and can accept every single doctrine and dogma that Rome puts out, then Eastern Catholic is a good choice for you. If you can't really accept those two dogmas, then Russian Orthodox would be the route you want to take.

Great sites, thank you. The teachings sit well enough with me because of the sources (authors) and references (tradition and Saints' writings). But the same can be said for the Orthodox argument: The the original Gospel greek texts cited could be (and have been) interpreted a bit differently, and for every tradition and Saint cited in the West, there is a seemingly equal and opposite tradition and Saint in the East.

Agh, I know, it's so aggravating if we want to go by arguments to help us decide; if we went on arguments alone, we'd never be able to make a decision. I think we both know that at this point. :D That's why also praying like a madman every day for God's wisdom and guidance is key! ;D

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas. You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church. That is Protestantism. And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

I accept the fact and agree that in order to be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church and can't just pick and choose what I want. But my understanding from Pope Pius X's "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" statement is that the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church do not forbid me from living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do. My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so. Or does it?

...living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do. My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so. Or does it?

I guess the only question then is why anyone would want to act like or be a pretend- Orthodox Christian when they don't believe what the Orthodox Church teaches? In Orthodoxy, praxis and belief are not separate, but a "seamless garment." I'm guessing that's the same in the RCC, isn't it? So why would anyone not want to act like a Roman Catholic when they do believe what that Church teaches?

...living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do. My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so. Or does it?

I guess the only question then is why anyone would want to act like or be a pretend- Orthodox Christian when they don't believe what the Orthodox Church teaches? In Orthodoxy, praxis and belief are not separate, but a "seamless garment." I'm guessing that's the same in the RCC, isn't it? So why would anyone not want to act like a Roman Catholic when they do believe what that Church teaches?

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas. You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church. That is Protestantism. And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

I accept the fact and agree that in order to be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church and can't just pick and choose what I want. But my understanding from Pope Pius X's "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" statement is that the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church do not forbid me from living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do. My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so. Or does it?

No, the Orthodox Church does not have a ban on live-action roleplaying... it's just kind of lame.

just go byzantine eastern catholic that way you are still under the pope then when you figire out the other stuff in orthodoxy thats gonna seal the deal you can make a sound spiritual decision God does not want to splinter the church up more than it is

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.

No, I will not take your word for it becaue I have researched the matter myself. I read from Gregory Palamas, the Eastern Fathers and modern Eastern orthodox theologians. I think most of what you believe is what Catholics believes, regardless of how anti-Latin the modern approach to EO theology really is. I realize that there are real differences, but not many.

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas. You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church. That is Protestantism. And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

I accept the fact and agree that in order to be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church and can't just pick and choose what I want. But my understanding from Pope Pius X's "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" statement is that the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church do not forbid me from living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do. My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so. Or does it?

You are asking the wrong person, as Pope Pius' words have no autority for us.

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas. You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church. That is Protestantism. And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

I accept the fact and agree that in order to be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church and can't just pick and choose what I want. But my understanding from Pope Pius X's "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" statement is that the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church do not forbid me from living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do. My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so. Or does it?

No, it does not. But I thought we were talking about Communion which is still forbidden. It seems to me that you are making the same mistake so many non-Orthodox do. And that is you are judging Orthodoxy by what's on the outside rather than what's on the inside. It's what so many Roman Catholic do. Both Latin and Eastern Rites. It's not what's on the outside that counts. It's what's on the inside.

on the other hand i think the papacy has become a crutch for you maybe you shiould just go fully russian orthodox, you gotta get over the pope thing a bishop is a bishop is a bishop is a bishop thats it your wife is russian orthodox? hey man be availible to your family russian orthodox.

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Pot calling the kettle back Mary?

Orthodoc

Are you suggesting that I am proselytizing by speaking to a fellow Catholic, as a fellow Catholic, outside this thread...when the man has already said he is not asking about converting but is asking how to lead a spiritual life that suits his family circumstance?

He's free to come and go as he likes, but you all are going after him so there's no point in my trying to address HIS concerns here. If he was talking about converting, I'd have nothing to say.

I just want to say that I think a lot of you who I usually respect are being really rude, and making a joke out of some serious questions.

I hope you and your family can find a solution. My wife is an Evangelical Protestant and we are having similar difficulties in our family. I know how hard it is to be separated at the Lord's Table and not to share a common cup when your two flesh have become one. But our God is a good God and works all things out in the end. Remember that even if you don't come to a common understanding, that St. Paul says that the prayers of the believing spouse save the "unbelieving" spouse.

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.

No, I will not take your word for it becaue I have researched the matter myself. I read from Gregory Palamas, the Eastern Fathers and modern Eastern orthodox theologians. I think most of what you believe is what Catholics believes, regardless of how anti-Latin the modern approach to EO theology really is. I realize that there are real differences, but not many.

That is, of course, your opinion. Is it not possible (and perhaps likely?) that one could read and research the matter beginning from and in the framework of, a particularly RC pov and understanding? Which would influence or shape the understanding of the differences and similarities?

In any case, I have encountered much more anti-Catholic bias and "hatred" from Protestants than from Orthodox.

But as long as there is an attitude, whether real or perceived, dismissal of very real differences in theology and praxis and accusations that the gulf is due to anti-Latin feeling, even discussions of like this will come to a dead end.

That's okay...I wouldn't expect anything less...I just hope it means the proselytizers are firm in their faith and not just overly defensive due to uncertainty and/or insecurity...for that would cause me to loose my sincere respect for the Orthodox faith!

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something! :police:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

I hope you and your family can find a solution. My wife is an Evangelical Protestant and we are having similar difficulties in our family. I know how hard it is to be separated at the Lord's Table and not to share a common cup when your two flesh have become one. But our God is a good God and works all things out in the end. Remember that even if you don't come to a common understanding, that St. Paul says that the prayers of the believing spouse save the "unbelieving" spouse.

Thank you for your words of encouragement.

I too believe that the through marriage two flesh (two souls) have become one and that the through the "believing spouse", the "unbelieving" spouse can be saved. I guess which one of us (I or my wife) is the "believing" spouse is up to debate.

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.

No, I will not take your word for it becaue I have researched the matter myself. I read from Gregory Palamas, the Eastern Fathers and modern Eastern orthodox theologians. I think most of what you believe is what Catholics believes, regardless of how anti-Latin the modern approach to EO theology really is. I realize that there are real differences, but not many.

Since you claim to know so much about Orthodoxy's modern approach to its theology, I didn't realize that you must have attended say, St. Vladimir's or St. Tikhon's or Holy Cross or Christ the Savior or St. Sophia's Seminaries to form your opinions about Orthodox theology in order for you to make such a statement. Of course I also realize that you might have attended a school from a more 'Traditionalist' Orthodox jurisdiction. Or perhaps have you just been following these types of 'debates' online from various sites of various persuasions or reading polemical publications, like fisheaters and the like?

Try this link from the Standing Conference of Orthodox Bishops before you make such a blanket accusation.

I hope you and your family can find a solution. My wife is an Evangelical Protestant and we are having similar difficulties in our family. I know how hard it is to be separated at the Lord's Table and not to share a common cup when your two flesh have become one. But our God is a good God and works all things out in the end. Remember that even if you don't come to a common understanding, that St. Paul says that the prayers of the believing spouse save the "unbelieving" spouse.

Thank you for your words of encouragement.

I too believe that the through marriage two flesh (two souls) have become one and that the through the "believing spouse", the "unbelieving" spouse can be saved. I guess which one of us (I or my wife) is the "believing" spouse is up to debate.

Please, don't do not go down that rabbit hole. I trust the sincerity of each of your beliefs and that is not for us, as strangers on the internet, to debate.

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.

No, I will not take your word for it becaue I have researched the matter myself. I read from Gregory Palamas, the Eastern Fathers and modern Eastern orthodox theologians. I think most of what you believe is what Catholics believes, regardless of how anti-Latin the modern approach to EO theology really is. I realize that there are real differences, but not many.

That is, of course, your opinion. Is it not possible (and perhaps likely?) that one could read and research the matter beginning from and in the framework of, a particularly RC pov and understanding? Which would influence or shape the understanding of the differences and similarities?

In any case, I have encountered much more anti-Catholic bias and "hatred" from Protestants than from Orthodox.

But as long as there is an attitude, whether real or perceived, dismissal of very real differences in theology and praxis and accusations that the gulf is due to anti-Latin feeling, even discussions of like this will come to a dead end.

Oh, I believe that there is a real difference, but not with regard to as many matters as you think.

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something! :police:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Mary

Mary:

Sometimes your responses are almost laughable. This is an Orthodox Catholic discussion forum open to all to discuss Orthodoxy or religion in general. If you don't like what we say or how we defend ourselves and or faith, then leave.

You accuse us of proseltyzing. Why are you here? Since the OP mentioned he believes in both Papal Supremacy & Infaalibility I haven't read one response that be considered as proseltyzing. The Orthodox responses (including my own) have been to tell him to stay where he is. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen Mary!

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something! :police:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Mary

Mary:

Sometimes your responses are almost laughable. This is an Orthodox Catholic discussion forum open to all to discuss Orthodoxy or religion in general. If you don't like what we say or how we defend ourselves and or faith, then leave.

You accuse us of proseltyzing. Why are you here? Since the OP mentioned he believes in both Papal Supremacy & Infaalibility I haven't read one response that be considered as proseltyzing. The Orthodox responses (including my own) have been to tell him to stay where he is. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen Mary!

Orthodoc

Not only that, this is the Convert sub-forum, where people come to discuss conversion to the Orthodox Church. This is not the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum no matter how much the RCs on here want it to be.

And let me add Orthodoc to the list of people I'm agreeing with; it happens more than stashko, but it's still noteworthy! ;)

Quote from: elijahmaria

Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Perhaps you should examine your own words/rhetoric before you point fingers at other people and whine about them...you just might find a speck or two in there.

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something! :police:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Mary

Mary:

Sometimes your responses are almost laughable. This is an Orthodox Catholic discussion forum open to all to discuss Orthodoxy or religion in general. If you don't like what we say or how we defend ourselves and or faith, then leave.

You accuse us of proseltyzing. Why are you here? Since the OP mentioned he believes in both Papal Supremacy & Infaalibility I haven't read one response that be considered as proseltyzing. The Orthodox responses (including my own) have been to tell him to stay where he is. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen Mary!

Orthodoc

Not only that, this is the Convert sub-forum, where people come to discuss conversion to the Orthodox Church. This is not the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum no matter how much the RCs on here want it to be.

And let me add Orthodoc to the list of people I'm agreeing with; it happens more than stashko, but it's still noteworthy! ;)

Quote from: elijahmaria

Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Perhaps you should examine your own words/rhetoric before you point fingers at other people and whine about them...you just might find a speck or two in there.

Speaking of laughable: Any other time a thread starts in ANY venue on this Forum, where the conversation drifts to things Catholic and Orthodox that thread or portions of it are whisked away to the Orthodox versus Catholic section so fast my head spins.

But NOW we have a live rabbit in the trap, eh?

Always the double standard.

(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/Themes/Pascha2010/images/warnpmod.gif) For complaining about moderation in the public forum once again you are hereby placed on Post Moderation for the next 30 days. Really, someone of your experience should know by now how to control herself. Please PM Fr. George or FrChris if you find this in error. Do NOT PM me. Thank you. -Schultz.

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something! :police:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Mary

Mary:

Sometimes your responses are almost laughable. This is an Orthodox Catholic discussion forum open to all to discuss Orthodoxy or religion in general. If you don't like what we say or how we defend ourselves and or faith, then leave.

You accuse us of proseltyzing. Why are you here? Since the OP mentioned he believes in both Papal Supremacy & Infaalibility I haven't read one response that be considered as proseltyzing. The Orthodox responses (including my own) have been to tell him to stay where he is. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen Mary!

Orthodoc

Not only that, this is the Convert sub-forum, where people come to discuss conversion to the Orthodox Church. This is not the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum no matter how much the RCs on here want it to be.

And let me add Orthodoc to the list of people I'm agreeing with; it happens more than stashko, but it's still noteworthy! ;)

Quote from: elijahmaria

Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Perhaps you should examine your own words/rhetoric before you point fingers at other people and whine about them...you just might find a speck or two in there.

Speaking of laughable: Any other time a thread starts in ANY venue on this Forum, where the conversation drifts to things Catholic and Orthodox that thread or portions of it are whisked away to the Orthodox versus Catholic section so fast my head spins.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice? (By the way, even the other Byzantine Rites like the Ruthenian parish near me which have been suggested as an option, just don't cut it for those of the Russian Orthodox tradition.) And then there are the children...

I appreciate -all- of the responses and discussions that have resulted from my inquiry...and welcome any more. My wife and I have spoken to the RO priest and thankfully he has been understanding and welcoming to me and my children (less Sacraments of course and I assume with hopes of my conversion) and has provided some good guidance, but is nice to get outside 'anonymous' perspectives as well.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice? (By the way, even the other Byzantine Rites like the Ruthenian parish near me which have been suggested as an option, just don't cut it for those of the Russian Orthodox tradition.) And then there are the children...

I appreciate -all- of the responses and discussions that have resulted from my inquiry...and welcome any more. My wife and I have spoken to the RO priest and thankfully he has been understanding and welcoming to me and my children (less Sacraments of course and I assume with hopes of my conversion) and has provided some good guidance, but is nice to get outside 'anonymous' perspectives as well.

I commend you for attempting to find some compromise, especially as I was raised in home of differing faith traditions. I know what that can be like. But a compromise means that each party has to give something up.

The plain fact, is that Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are not the same. No matter how much we might wish it otherwise or construct a fantasy that there are only minor theological quibbles and/or an inexplicable anti-Catholic bias separating us, there are very real substantive differences both in theology and praxis.

Papal infallibility, for example, is not simply an administrative detail, but a theological understanding. The filioque, similarly, is not just a minor misunderstanding of an obscure theological point, but a substantive change in the Nicene Creed, as well as the Church's theological understanding of the Trinity.

No one is saying that you can't attend an Orthodox Church with your family. What we're saying is, I think, that you can't be both Orthodox and Roman Catholic because they are different Churches, and if you think you can, you may be fooling yourself to no purpose.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.We had a minor writer (Ion Agarbiceanu was his pen name) who was also a greek-Catholic priest in a village in Transylvania from well before the the WWI to 1948 when the GCC was abolished. His short stories and memoirs are very beautiful, painting a world that, imo, is orthodox in all its basic co-ordinates, even though I know he was a Greek-catholic priest, and the characters of his stories are, most likely, Greek-Catholic. He never says what Church they belonged too.

"If the moderators find that the discusions become faith or jurisdiction debates, the topic will be split and sent the appropriate OC.Net forum to continue the discussion or debate. As a poster,You may also ask that a topic be split so that a private discussion can be established to go into detail about the issues that you feel adamant about and wish to debate or discuss. The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement. "

I currently do not see a violation of this policy in the clear explaination of the differences between "Russian Byzantine Catholic? Or just Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic?"

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.

Orthodoxy is a living reality, but that living reality is not a romanticized, dying culture but the God-Man Jesus Christ, and that reality is manifested in dogmas as much as in culture and community. Contrasting dogmas with "living reality" nonsensical.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.We had a minor writer (Ion Agarbiceanu was his pen name) who was also a greek-Catholic priest in a village in Transylvania from well before the the WWI to 1948 when the GCC was abolished. His short stories and memoirs are very beautiful, painting a world that, imo, is orthodox in all its basic co-ordinates, even though I know he was a Greek-catholic priest, and the characters of his stories are, most likely, Greek-Catholic. He never says what Church they belonged too.

I have to agree with Augustin regarding Greek Catholics. Living among them and/or coming from them,(as both he and I can attest) it is really not possible to define them as 'counterfeit'. Living in a sort of 'limbo' maybe, but 'counterfeit' - not really.

Certainly, until the modern era of mass communications, those faithful Greek Catholics in Europe lived their lives as did their ancestors in an 'Orthodox' manner. The 'old-timers' who were betrayed in America and Canada by the Latin hierarchy would simply refer to their church as 'nas Cerkov', or 'our Church.' For the most part they did not view themselves or the practice of their faith in terms of Vatican politics or an Orthodox episcopacy. To many of them Orthodoxy was unfortunately, and erroneously, equated with Russian imperialism.

It was only when they came face to face with the reality of being a sliver of a minority within American Catholicism, a minority group itself, that they began to realize the tenuous nature of their existence. I think that it is fair to say that in the 'diaspora' (to use a term we use frequently to describe Orthodox in non-Orthodox worlds) Greek Catholics have had a much harder path to follow as they attempt to carve out a place for themselves in a Protestant society with a large Latin Catholic minority. It was a 'Sophie's Choice' to many of them as they felt squeezed between two competing monoliths - the religious imperialism of Rome and the cultural imperialism of Moscow.

Hence to some, preserving 'nas Cerkov' meant having to make a difficult, and heart wrenching choice. It has to be noted that when faced with the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church by Soviet 'diktat' following the Revolution in Ukraine and the Second World War across the rest of East Europe, most chose to go underground until the lessening of the grip of the Soviet bear. The damage caused by the Soviets to the faith of both the Orthodox and Greek Catholics in those regions is impossible to calculate. Any real hope of a return to Orthodoxy in those regions akin to what happened through the choice and actions of the people in America was likely lost for generations and the ill will that remains there is difficult for us Americans to fathom.

I 'defend' the Greek Catholics not in the sense of defending their existing schism or error, but in the reality of trying to explain to Orthodox who have never had to deal with these complex issues to try to understand them in a kinder, more compassionate manner. Please keep them in your prayers. Thank you.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.We had a minor writer (Ion Agarbiceanu was his pen name) who was also a greek-Catholic priest in a village in Transylvania from well before the the WWI to 1948 when the GCC was abolished. His short stories and memoirs are very beautiful, painting a world that, imo, is orthodox in all its basic co-ordinates, even though I know he was a Greek-catholic priest, and the characters of his stories are, most likely, Greek-Catholic. He never says what Church they belonged too.

I have to agree with Augustin regarding Greek Catholics. Living among them and/or coming from them,(as both he and I can attest) it is really not possible to define them as 'counterfeit'. Living in a sort of 'limbo' maybe, but 'counterfeit' - not really.

Certainly, until the modern era of mass communications, those faithful Greek Catholics in Europe lived their lives as did their ancestors in an 'Orthodox' manner. The 'old-timers' who were betrayed in America and Canada by the Latin hierarchy would simply refer to their church as 'nas Cerkov', or 'our Church.' For the most part they did not view themselves or the practice of their faith in terms of Vatican politics or an Orthodox episcopacy. To many of them Orthodoxy was unfortunately, and erroneously, equated with Russian imperialism.

It was only when they came face to face with the reality of being a sliver of a minority within American Catholicism, a minority group itself, that they began to realize the tenuous nature of their existence. I think that it is fair to say that in the 'diaspora' (to use a term we use frequently to describe Orthodox in non-Orthodox worlds) Greek Catholics have had a much harder path to follow as they attempt to carve out a place for themselves in a Protestant society with a large Latin Catholic minority. It was a 'Sophie's Choice' to many of them as they felt squeezed between two competing monoliths - the religious imperialism of Rome and the cultural imperialism of Moscow.

Hence to some, preserving 'nas Cerkov' meant having to make a difficult, and heart wrenching choice. It has to be noted that when faced with the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church by Soviet 'diktat' following the Revolution in Ukraine and the Second World War across the rest of East Europe, most chose to go underground until the lessening of the grip of the Soviet bear. The damage caused by the Soviets to the faith of both the Orthodox and Greek Catholics in those regions is impossible to calculate. Any real hope of a return to Orthodoxy in those regions akin to what happened through the choice and actions of the people in America was likely lost for generations and the ill will that remains there is difficult for us Americans to fathom.

I 'defend' the Greek Catholics not in the sense of defending their existing schism or error, but in the reality of trying to explain to Orthodox who have never had to deal with these complex issues to try to understand them in a kinder, more compassionate manner. Please keep them in your prayers. Thank you.

I think agree with some of what you say but not all. Coming from the same background as you (my grandparents came here as Greek Catholics). I think it depends on the location one ancestors came from. I talked to a lot of older people in my parish (now deceased) that came from various parts of eastern europe. Some, like my grandparents, were aware they weren't Orthodox in europe but longed for the day they were free to return to Orthodoxy which they did in 1910 when they arrived here. But the were many more who told me when they were in europe they had no idea they weren't Orthodox until they came here. They would say that they still identified themselves as "Pravoslanie - Orthodox" in the Liturgy. When I asked my why she returned she replied (in her thick accent - "Cause dos peoples dont know vat dey are or vat dey vant be. Dey no vant be Ortodox but dey no vant be Roamn Catolick either". And, she was right. Most Greek Catholics I know (including family) suffer from an identity crisis. The Unia has been anything but a success. As is anything which is created by force.

I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.

I am getting this same sense from the people/priest/practices in the Russian Orthodox Church my wife and I sometimes attend, which appear to mirror the Russian Orthodox people/priest/practices of my wife's family and friends in Russia, when comparing them (people/priest/practices) to other Orthodox faithful/churches I have encountered in the U.S. I have a feeling, for example, that a person would have a hard time telling the difference between the people/priest/practices of a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the Ukraine from the people/priest/practices of a Ukrainian Catholic Church in the Ukraine.

This is part of why I think that if any Byzantine Catholic church is a viable option for me in my situation, the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church would be the best (if not only) option short of converting: The few Russian Byzantine Catholic parishes I have read/heard about are as far as I can tell identical to the Russian Orthodox parishes in almost every way. I cannot speak from first hand experience, of course, but this fact corresponds with the reseach I have done on the history and development of the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church. In my humble opinion, this 'imitation' does not come accross as 'counterfeit' as suggested before, but simply an authentic Russian Rite in union with Rome.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.We had a minor writer (Ion Agarbiceanu was his pen name) who was also a greek-Catholic priest in a village in Transylvania from well before the the WWI to 1948 when the GCC was abolished. His short stories and memoirs are very beautiful, painting a world that, imo, is orthodox in all its basic co-ordinates, even though I know he was a Greek-catholic priest, and the characters of his stories are, most likely, Greek-Catholic. He never says what Church they belonged too.

I have to agree with Augustin regarding Greek Catholics. Living among them and/or coming from them,(as both he and I can attest) it is really not possible to define them as 'counterfeit'. Living in a sort of 'limbo' maybe, but 'counterfeit' - not really.

Certainly, until the modern era of mass communications, those faithful Greek Catholics in Europe lived their lives as did their ancestors in an 'Orthodox' manner. The 'old-timers' who were betrayed in America and Canada by the Latin hierarchy would simply refer to their church as 'nas Cerkov', or 'our Church.' For the most part they did not view themselves or the practice of their faith in terms of Vatican politics or an Orthodox episcopacy. To many of them Orthodoxy was unfortunately, and erroneously, equated with Russian imperialism.

It was only when they came face to face with the reality of being a sliver of a minority within American Catholicism, a minority group itself, that they began to realize the tenuous nature of their existence. I think that it is fair to say that in the 'diaspora' (to use a term we use frequently to describe Orthodox in non-Orthodox worlds) Greek Catholics have had a much harder path to follow as they attempt to carve out a place for themselves in a Protestant society with a large Latin Catholic minority. It was a 'Sophie's Choice' to many of them as they felt squeezed between two competing monoliths - the religious imperialism of Rome and the cultural imperialism of Moscow.

Hence to some, preserving 'nas Cerkov' meant having to make a difficult, and heart wrenching choice. It has to be noted that when faced with the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church by Soviet 'diktat' following the Revolution in Ukraine and the Second World War across the rest of East Europe, most chose to go underground until the lessening of the grip of the Soviet bear. The damage caused by the Soviets to the faith of both the Orthodox and Greek Catholics in those regions is impossible to calculate. Any real hope of a return to Orthodoxy in those regions akin to what happened through the choice and actions of the people in America was likely lost for generations and the ill will that remains there is difficult for us Americans to fathom.

I 'defend' the Greek Catholics not in the sense of defending their existing schism or error, but in the reality of trying to explain to Orthodox who have never had to deal with these complex issues to try to understand them in a kinder, more compassionate manner. Please keep them in your prayers. Thank you.

I think agree with some of what you say but not all. Coming from the same background as you (my grandparents came here as Greek Catholics). I think it depends on the location one ancestors came from. I talked to a lot of older people in my parish (now deceased) that came from various parts of eastern europe. Some, like my grandparents, were aware they weren't Orthodox in europe but longed for the day they were free to return to Orthodoxy which they did in 1910 when they arrived here. But the were many more who told me when they were in europe they had no idea they weren't Orthodox until they came here. They would say that they still identified themselves as "Pravoslanie - Orthodox" in the Liturgy. When I asked my why she returned she replied (in her thick accent - "Cause dos peoples dont know vat dey are or vat dey vant be. Dey no vant be Ortodox but dey no vant be Roamn Catolick either". And, she was right. Most Greek Catholics I know (including family) suffer from an identity crisis. The Unia has been anything but a success. As is anything which is created by force.

Orthodoc

Your comments mirror my own experiences as well. And I think that in today's American Byzantine Catholic Church that identity crisis is more pronounced than among say, Ukrainian Greek Catholics due to the nationality issue. The only historical thing that I would say is that while the Unia was hardly a success in serving as a means for foster understanding between East and West (that does sound absurd!) it probably allowed the peoples who were forced into it a means to preserve their religious and cultural heritages as best they could under foreign princes who clearly were Latin Catholics. Had it gone the other way, neither you - Orthodoc - not I might be anything other than a Slovak Roman Catholic today. Just a thought, as God does work in strange ways. S'bohom!

I think if you honestly believe in the Papacy, yet want to do something charitable for your wife and show her that you are trying your best to find common ground, attending a Russian Byzantine Catholic parish would be a nice idea. Obviously you would not want to cease being Catholic since you have Catholic beliefs, but you do not necessarily have to continue going to a Latin parish.