i just need to drive someones FI to make a decision on that... i have heard that it sucks for track use.. and honestly, if its not for track, then whats it for?

I agree with this 100 percent. FI in this car cannot be fully used on a race track. I never drove supercharged M3 on a track, but know 2 ppl who removed their superchargers in order to continue tracking their M3s.
So, what is it for?
Porshe makes great cars, no doubt, but they are overpriced to make them exclusive.
I was going against GT3RS4 the other day at the track. That car puts to shame any M3, supercharged or not. Have you seen a new GT3?

Some folks on this forum will beg the differ... CBS (Chris) tracks his M3 with the 550 kit and is a monster on the circuit.

The SC kits are awesome for everyday driving, you don't need a track to enjoy them.

Porsche doesn't price them high to make them exclusive, they are expensive for sure, but that isn't the reason.

Also, what is a GT3RS4?

How can you enjoy the SC kit for everyday driving without crossing the speed limit by a lot?
So, why Porsche makes them so expensive?
Also, GT3 RS 4.0 is a special street legal car made by Porsche that is a monster on the race track.

One more thing. Feel free to come to any road course in the North East.
I bet i will take you out in your supercharged M3 with my street 135i car.

Edit. I felt some sarcasm bordering with disrespect in your responce to my post, that is the reason of my tone

How can you enjoy the SC kit for everyday driving without crossing the speed limit by a lot?
So, why Porsche makes them so expensive?
Also, GT3 RS 4.0 is a special street legal car made by Porsche that is a monster on the race track.

One more thing. Feel free to come to any road course in the North East.
I bet i will take you out in your supercharged M3 with my street 135i car.

Edit. I felt some sarcasm bordering with disrespect in your responce to my post, that is the reason of my tone

Given equal drivers a 911 is faster than an m3 and an m3 is faster than your 135i. That's the way it is.

911 are more expensive because they are outstanding performance machines.

You should drive one on a track, it's an incredible experence. I love my turbo on the track, it's a beast. I'd imagine the gt3 and new 991s is a monster as well. Blows away the m3. Then again, it's not as good as a dd and more expensive than an m3, so they really are cars with slightly different focuses

In stock form any porsche blows away our m3s in terms of responsiveness let alone the other myriad of aspects as you so nicely point out. Some people just can't get their own bias out of their way.

There's a reason the 911 is the best race car ever built and why in alms it has spanked bmw for years and years and has more wins than other other manuf by a large margin.

And at the end of the day the Porsche lacks looks that blow me away. Nissan GTR is in the same boat. Good power, not awesome power and a 5/10 in the looks department. Not a car I would consider, but hey to each their own.

I had a 996 c4s before the M3 and I really miss the 911. It was more raw. As fast, prob not but def more road feel and steering is better than anything I've ever owned. All this electric assist steering feels like gran turismo

I have owned several BMWs, none M3, and couple of P-cars to include a 987S and a 997.2 GT3 now. Also interesting to note a recent poll at Rennlist amongst GT owners show that nearly 80% came from M3s.

Although anyone can appreciate the comments about P-cars being expensive or not represent enough value for some people, I think couple things are being missed in this discussion: First, the price of any P-car depends heavily on options. If you try to price it by selecting too many options that really don't add value besides personalization, the prices climb easily above $120K. However, most owners keep their P-cars lightly optioned as the base car has more than sufficient luxuries, including the base leather. The only options you may want to spend money on and that also return value during resale are performance options. So, with that a 'nicely optioned' 991 911S is about $105K, I think that number has significant impact on "value" and that does not include usual discounts of $5-7K from dealer.

Second, the value equation is quite different for most owners than what is obvious on paper. A P-car has reliability and durability that few cars achieve. Particularly BMW is unfortunately not getting close enough in this regard IMHO. All of my BMWs had rattles after 20K miles, all leaked water from the driver's window after 30K miles, all had its interior trim fall off due to glue wearing out over time. I had no exceptions. A Porsche does not rattle even at 100K miles, it does not overheat, brakes don't fail and perform better than most performance cars. You don't have to modify a P-car to go to the track and be fast, safe and stay reliable, not even the brakes. And I am not talking about just GT cars, even Boxster and Cayman are built that way. When you put in six figures into a car, you expect these things, it is normal for P-car owners, but not for many other marques.

My BMWs never lasted enough on the track on any given session that I could really enjoy them. I could not even get enough camber to save the tires. From E36 to the last of E46 M3s had heat related issues, sub frame issues, brake issues still persist, electronic took over so much so that it is nearly impossible to work a BMW yourself anymore. For a P-car owner, at least a good portion of them, it is important to be able to work on your own car to at least change oil, brake fluid, spark plugs, etc. I do not know if you can do those things on a BMW any more.

I sold my Cayman S at 81K miles with 23K of them track miles. It had absolutely no issues when I sold it and I did not have to modify a bit of it expect adding additional brake cooling for my sanity. My 2010 GT3 now has 32K miles, it is my daily driver and has 10K track miles on it, no modifications. There are very few cars that can stand against it on the track. This weekend I had multiple 30-min track sessions at a heat index of 110 degrees, not a single issue, no P-car had any heat related issues at all that I know of, but most owners did, few were close to fainting in the car, it was so hot; I ran with the A/C on to cool a little more. Try that on a BMW... I doubt it would work.

I think most people that have not owned a P-car do not realize that much of the 'value' on the tangibles are not on a configuration sheet and won't be realized until you own one, any model. Although I have huge respect for BMW for what it stood for me in the years past, I have only one left in my garage and once that is gone, I don't think I'll have one again even though they still make attractive cars in one shape or another.

And also, how many other cars are available for which you can purchase a roll cage, carbon fiber race seats, fire extinguisher, etc. as options and still get to keep your warranty?

Who seriously cross shops an m3 and a 991? This is a ridiculous comparison.

Finally someone with some sense. I own an M3 because I can't afford a Porsche that I would want. They are not even in the same league. If someone thinks so then please trade me my 2013 for any 2013 911, of course car for car. . I will gladly give you the superior car if you think it is.

Thx for the perspective. Also, ppl fail to consider that the resale value of Porsches is much higher, so if you plan to sell the car eventually, your total cost of ownership may not be as high as you think given your exit will have a higher value % wise vs your purchase price.

As for people who said that the P-cars and M's aren't cross-shopped, I actually don't think this to be the case for older BMW M3/M5 owners (35-40+) (as confirmed by the GT3 guys coming from M3s does not surprise me at all). I would have gone Porsche if I didn't have kids and once they are older, I probably will given the direction BMW is going in. I actually have a friend who had a GT3 and sold it and got a 3 series 335 because of the kids/practicality issue and the GT3 on Bay Area roads is a terrible daily driver and he had it damaged while parking several times. With the M3, its the most refined, sports car like 4 passenger sedan available today -- it's not a sports car, but a sedan that's very capable and that's something that M3 owners should realize.

As far as on the track, I've only seen problems with 997 and earlier TTs with respect to heat issues after several laps. But the flat-6 engines seem pretty bulletproof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTS

Sorry for trolling, but I thought I add few notes...

I have owned several BMWs, none M3, and couple of P-cars to include a 987S and a 997.2 GT3 now. Also interesting to note a recent poll at Rennlist amongst GT owners show that nearly 80% came from M3s.

Although anyone can appreciate the comments about P-cars being expensive or not represent enough value for some people, I think couple things are being missed in this discussion: First, the price of any P-car depends heavily on options. If you try to price it by selecting too many options that really don't add value besides personalization, the prices climb easily above $120K. However, most owners keep their P-cars lightly optioned as the base car has more than sufficient luxuries, including the base leather. The only options you may want to spend money on and that also return value during resale are performance options. So, with that a 'nicely optioned' 991 911S is about $105K, I think that number has significant impact on "value" and that does not include usual discounts of $5-7K from dealer.

Second, the value equation is quite different for most owners than what is obvious on paper. A P-car has reliability and durability that few cars achieve. Particularly BMW is unfortunately not getting close enough in this regard IMHO. All of my BMWs had rattles after 20K miles, all leaked water from the driver's window after 30K miles, all had its interior trim fall off due to glue wearing out over time. I had no exceptions. A Porsche does not rattle even at 100K miles, it does not overheat, brakes don't fail and perform better than most performance cars. You don't have to modify a P-car to go to the track and be fast, safe and stay reliable, not even the brakes. And I am not talking about just GT cars, even Boxster and Cayman are built that way. When you put in six figures into a car, you expect these things, it is normal for P-car owners, but not for many other marques.

My BMWs never lasted enough on the track on any given session that I could really enjoy them. I could not even get enough camber to save the tires. From E36 to the last of E46 M3s had heat related issues, sub frame issues, brake issues still persist, electronic took over so much so that it is nearly impossible to work a BMW yourself anymore. For a P-car owner, at least a good portion of them, it is important to be able to work on your own car to at least change oil, brake fluid, spark plugs, etc. I do not know if you can do those things on a BMW any more.

I sold my Cayman S at 81K miles with 23K of them track miles. It had absolutely no issues when I sold it and I did not have to modify a bit of it expect adding additional brake cooling for my sanity. My 2010 GT3 now has 32K miles, it is my daily driver and has 10K track miles on it, no modifications. There are very few cars that can stand against it on the track. This weekend I had multiple 30-min track sessions at a heat index of 110 degrees, not a single issue, no P-car had any heat related issues at all that I know of, but most owners did, few were close to fainting in the car, it was so hot; I ran with the A/C on to cool a little more. Try that on a BMW... I doubt it would work.

I think most people that have not owned a P-car do not realize that much of the 'value' on the tangibles are not on a configuration sheet and won't be realized until you own one, any model. Although I have huge respect for BMW for what it stood for me in the years past, I have only one left in my garage and once that is gone, I don't think I'll have one again even though they still make attractive cars in one shape or another.

And also, how many other cars are available for which you can purchase a roll cage, carbon fiber race seats, fire extinguisher, etc. as options and still get to keep your warranty?

I have owned several BMWs, none M3, and couple of P-cars to include a 987S and a 997.2 GT3 now. Also interesting to note a recent poll at Rennlist amongst GT owners show that nearly 80% came from M3s.

Although anyone can appreciate the comments about P-cars being expensive or not represent enough value for some people, I think couple things are being missed in this discussion: First, the price of any P-car depends heavily on options. If you try to price it by selecting too many options that really don't add value besides personalization, the prices climb easily above $120K. However, most owners keep their P-cars lightly optioned as the base car has more than sufficient luxuries, including the base leather. The only options you may want to spend money on and that also return value during resale are performance options. So, with that a 'nicely optioned' 991 911S is about $105K, I think that number has significant impact on "value" and that does not include usual discounts of $5-7K from dealer.

Second, the value equation is quite different for most owners than what is obvious on paper. A P-car has reliability and durability that few cars achieve. Particularly BMW is unfortunately not getting close enough in this regard IMHO. All of my BMWs had rattles after 20K miles, all leaked water from the driver's window after 30K miles, all had its interior trim fall off due to glue wearing out over time. I had no exceptions. A Porsche does not rattle even at 100K miles, it does not overheat, brakes don't fail and perform better than most performance cars. You don't have to modify a P-car to go to the track and be fast, safe and stay reliable, not even the brakes. And I am not talking about just GT cars, even Boxster and Cayman are built that way. When you put in six figures into a car, you expect these things, it is normal for P-car owners, but not for many other marques.

My BMWs never lasted enough on the track on any given session that I could really enjoy them. I could not even get enough camber to save the tires. From E36 to the last of E46 M3s had heat related issues, sub frame issues, brake issues still persist, electronic took over so much so that it is nearly impossible to work a BMW yourself anymore. For a P-car owner, at least a good portion of them, it is important to be able to work on your own car to at least change oil, brake fluid, spark plugs, etc. I do not know if you can do those things on a BMW any more.

I sold my Cayman S at 81K miles with 23K of them track miles. It had absolutely no issues when I sold it and I did not have to modify a bit of it expect adding additional brake cooling for my sanity. My 2010 GT3 now has 32K miles, it is my daily driver and has 10K track miles on it, no modifications. There are very few cars that can stand against it on the track. This weekend I had multiple 30-min track sessions at a heat index of 110 degrees, not a single issue, no P-car had any heat related issues at all that I know of, but most owners did, few were close to fainting in the car, it was so hot; I ran with the A/C on to cool a little more. Try that on a BMW... I doubt it would work.

I think most people that have not owned a P-car do not realize that much of the 'value' on the tangibles are not on a configuration sheet and won't be realized until you own one, any model. Although I have huge respect for BMW for what it stood for me in the years past, I have only one left in my garage and once that is gone, I don't think I'll have one again even though they still make attractive cars in one shape or another.

And also, how many other cars are available for which you can purchase a roll cage, carbon fiber race seats, fire extinguisher, etc. as options and still get to keep your warranty?

Cheers,

Good post. I think for a lot of us cost also stops playing as large of a role and you can get what you want. For a lot of us that ends up being a porsche.

Thx for the perspective. Also, ppl fail to consider that the resale value of Porsches is much higher, so if you plan to sell the car eventually, your total cost of ownership may not be as high as you think given your exit will have a higher value % wise vs your purchase price.

As for people who said that the P-cars and M's aren't cross-shopped, I actually don't think this to be the case for older BMW M3/M5 owners (35-40+) (as confirmed by the GT3 guys coming from M3s does not surprise me at all). I would have gone Porsche if I didn't have kids and once they are older, I probably will given the direction BMW is going in. I actually have a friend who had a GT3 and sold it and got a 3 series 335 because of the kids/practicality issue and the GT3 on Bay Area roads is a terrible daily driver and he had it damaged while parking several times. With the M3, its the most refined, sports car like 4 passenger sedan available today -- it's not a sports car, but a sedan that's very capable and that's something that M3 owners should realize.

As far as on the track, I've only seen problems with 997 and earlier TTs with respect to heat issues after several laps. But the flat-6 engines seem pretty bulletproof.

An m3 and a 991 are not natural competitors and are not remotely in the same price class. When you buy an m3, you are buying a great car - but a car with the compromises inherent in a 3-series sedan base. You might as well compare it to an r8 or GTR.

Could I afford a 991? Yes, I suppose so - but it would not be a responsible decision at this point in my life. But I don't fool myself into thinking that I bought something similar. Accept the m3 for what it is - the greatest sports sedan ever made.

Never said they are similar cars, I just said that I believe that there are people who could buy both cars and would love both cars, but decide to do one of them instead. Also, the p-cars are better cars, no question about it. Maybe cross-shopped isn't the right terminology, but these are cars that I know that people within a certain demographic consider and have bought/sold (I personally know several of them). Not to mention all the old 997 and 996 comparo tests in the US and Europe pitting them against the M3, so yes they are viewed as competitors or quasi-competitors (although somewhat unequal)

Quote:

Originally Posted by robotk

An m3 and a 991 are not natural competitors and are not remotely in the same price class. When you buy an m3, you are buying a great car - but a car with the compromises inherent in a 3-series sedan base. You might as well compare it to an r8 or GTR.

Could I afford a 991? Yes, I suppose so - but it would not be a responsible decision at this point in my life. But I don't fool myself into thinking that I bought something similar. Accept the m3 for what it is - the greatest sports sedan ever made.

An m3 and a 991 are not natural competitors and are not remotely in the same price class. Comparing cars with such different design objectives and price points is, frankly, stupid. When you buy an m3, you are buying a great car - but a car with the compromises inherent in a 3-series sedan base. You might as well compare it to an r8 or GTR. It's just idiotic.

Could I afford a 991? Yes, I suppose so - but it would not be a responsible decision at this point in my life. But I don't fool myself into thinking that I bought something similar. Accept the m3 for what it is - the greatest sports sedan ever made.

Yeah the M3 is not even a sports car, it would totally be stupid to compare it to a 911, GT-R or R8!!