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Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by River_Capulet

Kaien was above Byakuya and Soi fon at that point. He might be at Renji or Ikkaku's level at the time. Rukia is a vice captain, but she wasn't able to keep up with Arr's copy of Kaien (which I doubt is as strong as the original). If he were alive, he might become stronger than the young captains.

I think it's a big stretch to say in one breath that Kaien was 'above Byakuya and Soi Fon' and in the next that he was at Renji and Ikkaku's level. Byakuya and Soi Fon are both CAPTAINS and more powerful and skilled than Renji or Ikkaku. If the reverse was true, then those two would not be captains. Also Renji would not have LOST to Byakuya and Byakuya would not still be the person who Renji looks up to, and who is still Renji's mentor. Sorry, you're pushing things a bit far with that. Kaien was a VC, and he was never shown to have a bankai. He may have been talented and suited to train to become a captain, but it was never realized, partly because he didn't want the position. It doesn't mean he didn't have the potential, but that he didn't pursue it.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Arr ate 33.650 hollows IIRC. His power wasn't Kaien's strength. I think he was stronger than Kaien. And yes, Kaien was above Byakuya and SoiFon because he was like 5 times older... -.-

Not that he's stronger because he's 5 times older. He already has a reiatsu comparable to a vice captain even before he became a shinigami, which is high even when comparing to noble standard. I believe that after he became a shinigami, his level is at least a high tier vice captain (renji). Speaking of which, even though renji is the only vice captain with a bankai, he is never called a genius.

I think it's a big stretch to say in one breath that Kaien was 'above Byakuya and Soi Fon' and in the next that he was at Renji and Ikkaku's level. Byakuya and Soi Fon are both CAPTAINS and more powerful and skilled than Renji or Ikkaku. If the reverse was true, then those two would not be captains. Also Renji would not have LOST to Byakuya and Byakuya would not still be the person who Renji looks up to, and who is still Renji's mentor. Sorry, you're pushing things a bit far with that. Kaien was a VC, and he was never shown to have a bankai. He may have been talented and suited to train to become a captain, but it was never realized, partly because he didn't want the position. It doesn't mean he didn't have the potential, but that he didn't pursue it.

I said above Byakuya dn Soi fon at that time (when he was alive 100 years ago). He was a vice captain while Soi fon is only a seated officer in the second division and Byakuya had yet to join the gotei 13. His level 100 years ago is comparable to the current renji (or arrancar arc renji)

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by River_Capulet

Not that he's stronger because he's 5 times older. He already has a reiatsu comparable to a vice captain even before he became a shinigami, which is high even when comparing to noble standard. I believe that after he became a shinigami, his level is at least a high tier vice captain (renji). Speaking of which, even though renji is the only vice captain with a bankai, he is never called a genius.

I said above Byakuya dn Soi fon at that time (when he was alive 100 years ago). He was a vice captain while Soi fon is only a seated officer in the second division and Byakuya had yet to join the gotei 13. His level 100 years ago is comparable to the current renji (or arrancar arc renji)

That does make more sense, as if Byakuya had been at that level, he certainly would have been an officer. And Soi Fon was just a little girl, following Yoruichi around, worshipping her...

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by Firebird0ne

I think it's a big stretch to say in one breath that Kaien was 'above Byakuya and Soi Fon' and in the next that he was at Renji and Ikkaku's level. Byakuya and Soi Fon are both CAPTAINS and more powerful and skilled than Renji or Ikkaku. If the reverse was true, then those two would not be captains. Also Renji would not have LOST to Byakuya and Byakuya would not still be the person who Renji looks up to, and who is still Renji's mentor. Sorry, you're pushing things a bit far with that. Kaien was a VC, and he was never shown to have a bankai. He may have been talented and suited to train to become a captain, but it was never realized, partly because he didn't want the position. It doesn't mean he didn't have the potential, but that he didn't pursue it.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Hitsugaya is the youngest captain,and he was said to be a prodigy. I think he is above gin,as gin is much older than him. in 100 years the former will have surpassed kyoraku,that's enoguh

Gin was the prodigy of his generation, so, that logic doesn't apply. Besides, beginning with his fight against Gin, then against Aizen twice, Hitsugaya has merely acted as more of a child than a captain, thus, hurting his overall reputation quite a bit. He himself destroyed his apparently calm and observing appearance when he attacked mindlessly whenever he thought there was an opportunity to do so.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

Gin was the prodigy of his generation, so, that logic doesn't apply. Besides, beginning with his fight against Gin, then against Aizen twice, Hitsugaya has merely acted as more of a child than a captain, thus, hurting his overall reputation quite a bit. He himself destroyed his apparently calm and observing appearance when he attacked mindlessly whenever he thought there was an opportunity to do so.

I find it a bit unfair to compare skills and genius level while under the influence of Aizens Zan, those openings might have been perfectly logical to attack had he not been seeing things, and that was probably Aizens goal.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by Sanadan

I find it a bit unfair to compare skills and genius level while under the influence of Aizens Zan, those openings might have been perfectly logical to attack had he not been seeing things, and that was probably Aizens goal.

Well, the attack in the Central 46 chambers, I'd understand. But his final head-on attack in FKT was a total failure, having made the other three captains follow him and get defeated fairly easily.
I agree, though. The comparison isn't fair on its own. We will never a hypothetical reaction from Gin.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

Well, the attack in the Central 46 chambers, I'd understand. But his final head-on attack in FKT was a total failure, having made the other three captains follow him and get defeated fairly easily.
I agree, though. The comparison isn't fair on its own. We will never a hypothetical reaction from Gin.

This is one of the fun things with Bleach though, in Naruto for example we have a pretty clear hierarchy, you pretty much know whos stronger and their elemental perks and cons points this out even clearer. The Gin toshiro debate though can go on for ages and in the end it can't be answered but it leads to very fun debates. Ive had a blast reading up on what people think about this.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

I’d place Gin at the top. He is a good player. Pretends to be innocent but deep down knows everything, his cunning nature. He knew the secret of kyokasuigetsu. He was the right hand of Aizen (at least in SS). But he messed up in the end. If he really wanted to kill Aizen, he should have done it before his fusion with the hogyoku.

Byakuya at 2nd; He learned many techniques from his zan. He keeps his cool in battles and doesn’t let the opponent to corner him. He succeeded in figuring out the nature of zummari’s tricky power and its solution. He is not emotion driven which is an important factor. His arrogance is a hindrance in his development and sometimes makes him short sighted.

Toshiro at 3rd; He is the child party that comes once in every few centuries (ep. is 48). He achieved bankai at an early age (which is rare or maybe one of its kind) and got an officer seat. Everyone treats him as a child but he is a captain. But his biggest flaw (in my opinion) is his emotion driven. He got owned many times because of this. A smart One can mislead him easily.

Last edited by kisuke u.; March 11, 2013 at 06:53 AM.
Reason: wanted to correct a figure.

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

I wonder what working under someone or having control over their emotions has to do with being a genius or natural talented. Those are character traits, which may affect their actions, not their ability to achieve great things though.