Tony Abbott talks frankly about leadership and loss

Tony Abbott explains why he pulled out of the Liberal leadership race.

Transcript

TONY JONES: Well returning now to our top story on the turmoil in the Liberal Party in the run-up to tomorrow's vote for a new leader. Tony Abbott bowed out of the leadership race today leaving Malcolm Turnbull and Brendan Nelson to slug it out. The outgoing health minister joined us earlier this evening after dining with John Howard at the Lodge for the last time.

Tony Abbott, thanks for joining us.

TONY ABBOTT: Thanks, Tony.

TONY JONES: Did you stand down from the leadership race because John Howard is now on the nose?

TONY ABBOTT: I stood down because I didn't have the numbers to mount a credible challenge. I thought I did on Sunday. Or at least I thought I might on Sunday. But by the time I had done a full canvas it was pretty obvious that Brendan and Malcolm have much more support.

TONY JONES: But you also mentioned your relationship with John Howard being a key factor - and I guess the reason you don't have any support.

TONY ABBOTT: I didn't have no support, but I didn't have enough support to be a credible challenger at this time.

This time does not suit me. Who knows what the future might hold. I think it would be fair to say...

TONY JONES: You mean during the next term? Because, we know what conservative governments in defeat were like in Britain: revolving doors for leaders.

TONY ABBOTT: And let us hope that that doesn't happen to this conservative opposition.

TONY JONES: But if it does, you will be there.

TONY ABBOTT: Well, I certainly have staked a claim. I think I have something to offer the future of the Party, but I think it is true just at the moment, the Party thinks that it is important to move on from the Howard era. And I obviously have always been very closely associated with John Howard. I think history will judge him very well. I think that in the not too distant future this may well seem like a golden age. But just at the moment, the Party is devastated understandably by the loss and wants to distance itself from the recent past.

TONY JONES: I've got to ask you this. Whoever takes the leadership tomorrow. Should they remain leader under any circumstances until the next election?

TONY ABBOTT: Um, I'm certainly not guaranteeing that I won't in the future challenge for the leadership. But I certainly intend to try to be a very constructive and loyal member of the team of whoever wins tomorrow.

TONY JONES: So you won't say that the person who wins tomorrow should remain leader until the next election?

TONY ABBOTT: But look, we are in a new period of time and prior to the election we had very, very well-proven leadership in Peter Costello and John Howard. This is a whole new ball game. I hope whoever emerges tomorrow goes well. I certainly wish that person well. I will be happy to serve in whatever capacity that person might ask me to serve. But in the end it will depend on performance how long that person lasts and how well that person goes.

TONY JONES: You will be riding shot-gun effectively.

TONY ABBOTT: Look, I will be there doing my best for the team.

TONY JONES: Is the Party ready for a socially progressive small L liberal whose policy positions are barely distinguishable from the Labor Party's?

TONY ABBOTT: Well, I don't think that is a fair characterisation of either Malcolm or Brendan. And I think...

TONY JONES: Are you sure you don't?

TONY ABBOTT: I think both of them are more complex and more interesting politicians than that.

But let's face it. These are unusual political times. We've just had an election won by someone who promised to be indistinguishable from the government on most issues, someone who claimed to be both an old-fashioned Christian socialist and an economic conservative. That chameleon won an election. So who knows how the opposition might go?

TONY JONES: Well, it does look a bit like me-tooism turned on its head. Here is the Turnbull agenda as we know it: an Australian Republic, sorry to the stolen generation, ratify Kyoto, he is sympathetic to the gay agenda and he now rejects WorkChoices outright. Is that the party you signed up for?

TONY ABBOTT: Well, that is a different take to that which we have been pursuing over the last few years.

TONY JONES: You can say that again. I mean, that is a totally different party, it sounds like.

TONY ABBOTT: Look, I don't think that that is the totality of Malcolm's position,

TONY JONES: Okay, well let's just take those ones I mentioned. They are key... he calls them the symbolic things. Do you think the Party, and are you ready for a series of symbolic changes along those lines.

TONY ABBOTT: Well, let's say this, Tony. The incoming government will ratify Kyoto. So that will be if you like, a done deal. And once it is ratified, you can hardly unratify it. And in any event, the whole world will have moved on from Kyoto in a couple of yearís time.

On the question of Indigenous things, well look, um... The former government, I think has a much better record on Indigenous policy than is often recognised.

TONY JONES: But do you agree... let's not go through the detail of that, because we have done that a lot in government, but do you accept this argument about the symbolism of saying sorry?

TONY ABBOTT: Look, I think John Howard successfully moved us beyond that. And frankly, if Kevin Rudd wants to get into that quagmire, I think he is making a big mistake.

TONY JONES: Malcolm Turnbull we are talking about.

TONY ABBOTT: And the other point I want to make, though...

TONY JONES: Is Malcolm Turnbull making a big mistake?

TONY ABBOTT: The other point I want to make is that regardless of whether Malcolm or Brendan becomes the leader, the Party still has some influence. And in the end it is the party room which not only determines the leadership but ultimately determines the policy.

TONY JONES: You have... you would be aware of concerns in the Party about the public campaign that Malcolm Turnbull has been running on the airwaves, including all of these new policy prescriptions. Is that causing concern among your colleagues?

TONY ABBOTT: I think that it's inevitable, given the kind of open democracy that we have and given the kind of media pressures that we are all under that people who are running for the leadership are going to end up speaking to the media and they are going to end up making commitments... or at least, making statements that haven't gone through, if you like, a proper party room process so to speak.

But we are....

TONY JONES: Is that particular issue - not going through a proper party room process... you are making a series of party policy prescriptions on air - live on air as it were. I mean, is that concerning people? I mean there have been rumblings about Malcolm Turnbull's non-consensus style, for example.

TONY ABBOTT: I think notwithstanding this slightly unorthodox campaign for the leadership, I think Malcolm does have strong support. Whether he has stronger support than Brendan will be apparent tomorrow. But the point I want to make is that we are in hiatus and the sort of thing which would be improper if we had a leadership in place and a party room process that could be gone through is I think not so objectionable given that we are in position of flux at the moment.

TONY JONES: You accept it, then that this is a legitimate way to behave.

TONY ABBOTT: Well, I'm saying that Malcolm is Malcolm. And Malcolm is a primal force of nature, someone once said. And things will be interesting under Malcolm, but nevertheless, he is entitled at the moment to do these things. And I don't think - should he become leader tomorrow - that it will in any way prejudice the open days of his leadership.

TONY JONES: Sounds like you think he's got the numbers.

TONY ABBOTT: Well, I don't know. Certainly, he has got a lot of support in the media. Whether that translates to support in the party room, only time will tell.

TONY JONES: Now you have just come from what is already being termed the "Last Supper" in the Lodge. None of us were there, obviously, give us a sense of the atmosphere.

TONY ABBOTT: There was nothing funereal about it, I've got to say. Obviously there are... there were many people who were disappointed at Saturday. Some people had been shattered by Saturday because they had lost their seats as well as their ministries. But you know, we have been a good government, Tony. And I don't think many months will go by without people looking back with considerable nostalgia and affection towards the administrative competence, and the political steadfastness of the Howard government.

TONY JONES: We have barely seen John Howard since election night, how is he bearing up?

TONY ABBOTT: I think he has the character to cope. I'm not sure that all of his recent predecessors in that role of ex-prime minister have coped that well with the aftermath of defeat. But John Howard is a man of very fine character and of very stern stuff.

TONY JONES: So you instinctively think...

TONY ABBOTT: He is philosophical about these things.

TONY JONES: You have spoken to him obviously about it?

TONY ABBOTT: Obviously I have.

TONY JONES: And he feels philosophical?

Does it feel like it was his fault?

TONY ABBOTT: He knows that there were many decisions that he made in the last term that will inevitably be called into question. And maybe he got some of those calls wrong. But he also knows that he led a good government and he has changed Australia for the better.

TONY JONES: I've got to ask you this - is John Howard now re-asking his closest colleagues the question that he essentially put to Cabinet some time ago - "is it me?" In this case, "was it me?"

TONY ABBOTT: I'm not so sure, because I think that he has come to the conclusion that it wasn't really him. It was the fact that the government was 11.5 years old. And I don't believe - even with the wisdom of hindsight - that changing the leadership 12 months ago let alone three months ago would have made that much difference. Because unlike for instance, Morris Iemma who had been a bit player in the Carr government in NSW, Peter Costello had always been absolutely central to the Howard government.

TONY JONES: So you think... you are essentially saying that he shares half the blame for the loss.

TONY ABBOTT: And I think half the credit for the successes of that government.

TONY JONES: But half the blame for the loss.

TONY ABBOTT: Well, I'm not saying that Tony. I'm saying that in the end, the prime minister of the day takes the responsibility for the government's successes and failures. But Peter Costello was not just another minister. He was, if you like, the twin pillar on which the Howard government rested.

TONY JONES: Now Peter Costello wasn't at the lunch. So he has kept in tact his record of never having had a meal at the Lodge with John Howard.

TONY ABBOTT: But Peter has had many meals at the Lodge with John Howard.

TONY JONES: Why wasn't he at this one?

TONY ABBOTT: He and Tania hadn't been to a foursome with John and Jeanette.

TONY JONES: I hate even to contemplate the thought of that. But why wasn't...

TONY ABBOTT: I would have loved to have been at such a gathering. And of course, Peter and Tania had been at gathering with John and Jeanette and other people.

TONY JONES: Let me ask you this, why wasn't he at this lunch?

TONY ABBOTT: That's not a question that I can answer.

TONY JONES: Now we heard last night that publishers are desperate to get Peter Costello to write a tell-all memoir. Gerard Henderson told us that Peter Costello took extensive notes of conversations - private conversations with John Howard and with others. Are you urging him not to write that memoir.

TONY ABBOTT: Well, I think that any memoir that Peter Costello wrote would be a tribute to the colleagues who have helped him to do the good work that he has done.

TONY JONES: That is what you'd like it to be. But what if it actually was a memoir which told what he really thought about John Howard.

TONY ABBOTT: And what he really thinks about John Howard is that John Howard was a great prime minister - not perfect. Peter and John didnít always agree. Obviously, Peter would have loved John to have vacated the chair at some point in the past.

TONY JONES: Do you agree with Michael Kroger that the Party is now at its lowest ebb since it was formed?

TONY ABBOTT: I think these are pretty dark days for the party. But I also think that we should keep things in perspective.

Just three years ago, the same team with much the same policies and certainly the same values won a stunning victory. So sure, we've had...

TONY JONES: A lot of those values seem to be changing now if Malcolm Turnbull gets in charge.

TONY ABBOTT: We've had a massive defeat. No doubt about that. But we are still only three per cent away from winning next time round.

TONY JONES: So you don't accept the political reality that the Liberal Party is very likely now to be out of office for two terms?

TONY ABBOTT: I don't accept that at all.

TONY JONES: Alright, the last time I saw you, you looked totally exhausted.

TONY ABBOTT: I'd had a hard day.

TONY JONES: You had had a very hard day indeed. You've had a hard day again today. You haven't seen much of your family.

Have you considered, or did you consider giving the game away completely like others?

TONY ABBOTT: No. No, look I didn't Tony. Look, I'm very lucky. I have a family that doesn't always like what I do, but which is very supportive of what I do. And my wife and my kids have always known that I had a vocation to politics and thus far at least they are prepared to support it. And I am very grateful to them for that.

TONY JONES: So you imagine you will be round from here until the next election at least?

TONY ABBOTT: Not from here to eternity, but certainly for I hope a long time.

TONY JONES: Here is snapshot of the Liberal Party at the moment. It has been decimated at a federal level. In WA the Liberal Leader Paul Omodei has virtually barricaded himself in his office and he is threatening to knock the block off anyone who comes in to challenge him.

TONY ABBOTT: That's muscular leadership.

TONY JONES: It certainly is. In Queensland, the Party president has told his leader Bruce Flegg to stand down after Flegg refused to allow a leadership spill. In NSW, the Party has been taken over by the right. Some say the extreme right.

I've got to ask you this. Isn't it the Liberal Party rather than the voters that is sleepwalking to oblivion at the moment?

TONY ABBOTT: We have some problems. But I don't think that they are problems which good people and good policies can't fix. And in NSW I would certainly dispute the claim that there has been any extreme right takeover. Barry O'Farrell is a very decent bloke. He is a highly competent experienced professional...

TONY JONES: I'm talking about the Party at an organisational level.

TONY ABBOTT: I don't... it's just a grotesque caricature to describe the Party membership that way.

TONY JONES: On election night a number of senior Liberals said the scandal in Lindsay was responsible for not only destroying the end of the campaign but in many respects tipping the balance in the election.

Will there be, as well as the Federal Police investigation, will there be an internal Liberal Party investigation that goes right up the chain into the state executive to find out what actually happened and who knew what?

TONY ABBOTT: Well, there certainly should be. But I think I can tell you absolutely point blank, Tony, that it was a rogue act by a group of lunatics.

TONY JONES: But some of those lunatics or at least one of those lunatics...

TONY ABBOTT: Well connected lunatics, sure. But the fact of the matter is, even the espousers of candidates and retiring members are capable of doing crazy things.

TONY JONES: I'm just saying it went right up the chain to the state executive. Are you not worried that there may be a poison in the state executive?

TONY ABBOTT: I think that factionalism has ill-served the NSW Party. Factionalism of the left and factionalism of the right. I think people are perfectly entitled to a philosophical view. I think people are perfectly entitled to have their friends, and be inclined to support their friends. But in the end, everyone has got to work together. And that is the poison that sometimes contaminates political parties.

TONY JONES: Did Jackie Kelly talk to you before those pamphlets went out?

TONY ABBOTT: No. Absolutely not. And Jackie had no inkling, as I understand it from subsequent conversations - had no inkling of what was about to happen.

TONY JONES: Did she ask for your advice before she went on AM and put her foot comprehensively in it? And gave what some would describe as the worst interview ever done by a member of parliament and took the Chaser defence. Were you responsible for the Chaser defence.

TONY ABBOTT: Look, Jackie was my best friend in the Parliament. She's a terrific person. But even she would accept that that was the lowest ebb of her political career. And look, I don't put words in her mouth, just as people don't put words in my mouth.

TONY ABBOTT: I didn't suggest that she say anything. I... we just lamented what a crazy thing it was.

TONY JONES: What a crazy thing is was it happened in her living room.

TONY ABBOTT: Look. Tony, you are now pressing me on things that I'm afraid I know nothing about. And they are the sorts of things that will have to come out in the various investigations that are going on.

TONY JONES: Tony Abbott, we thank you once again. A hard day at the office. I've got to say, you always come in on hard days - some of the hardest days - to talk about it. That is one thing to be admired about you and we thank you very much for coming in once again.

TONY ABBOTT: Part of the political process and democratic accountability, Tony.