[QUOTE=Cold_Smokin';3972042]Although it's easy to point and assume this was a collection of clueless Joes, it seems pretty far from the truth. As a group, it was a solid collective of education and experience.

That doesn't really seem to make a difference lately. It seems like the clueless and the experienced have both been involved in incidents like this in recent years. Maybe more of the latter.

Denver Post article describes a bit about what they were doing at the time - ascending across the bottom, spaced out a bit. One (at least) victim was found with his skins on.

They all had their skins on. I can tell you that. My friend Chris had little to no experience out there. The rest i had just met briefly that morning. Nice guys and seemingly prepared. We all make mistakes but group dynamics you know....I'm struggling with it deeply right now.

How does the various reports go from an initial 10 foot to 4 foot crown?

The snow changed so drastically this week over a couple days. Tuesday became so sunny, and the snow morphed so rapidly, then Wednesday the really cold snow came back fast, thursday and Friday was mixed. Was there any warning on CAIC about these significant changes to help those who are not on the mountain every day?

How does the various reports go from an initial 10 foot to 4 foot crown?

The snow changed so drastically this week over a couple days. Tuesday became so sunny, and the snow morphed so rapidly, then Wednesday the really cold snow came back fast, thursday and Friday was mixed. Was there any warning on CAIC about these significant changes to help those who are not on the mountain every day?

big vibes.

Don't know, but the crown looks huge to me. Check the guys in the background.

Simple, that paints a much clearer picture, thanks. Take time to process, and don't judge, least of all yourself. This isn't the first, nor will it be the last time people make mistakes. It's what we do, and if we're lucky enough to survive, how we learn.

Crown ranged from 4' to 10' according to CAIC guys on scene. Ran across two ridges off the west flank of Sniktau. Truly tragic up there. All had their skins on. They had just left their truck and were traversing - one at a time - across the bottom of the bowl.
One guy was found 15 feet deep.
From what I've found in the numbers: this is the worst avalanche in US history for skiers and snowboarders. There have been avalanches with more fatalities in BC, people in buildings (Alpine Meadows, Twin Lakes,) climbers (Ranier) and snowmobilers (Turnagain.) For skiers and snowboarders, I can't find anything greater than four fatalities in the US. (Feb 1987 in Breck on Peak 7 had four.)
RIP Ian, Chris, Rick, Joe and Ryan. Prayers for Jerome, who must be pretty rattled.

Not in the mood to debate, but when a group featuring some very seasoned vets goes down, it drives a pretty big fucking stake through one's comfort level in the CO backcountry. My partners and I will be taking very hard looks at our own education/awareness before even thinking of heading up...

i feel for the families of the dead, the effects are so deep. huge sympathies to those directly affected. simple- strength to you brother.

but looking beyond that, it's time to be honest with ourselves. it's so cool to put out the vibes, talk about how trained so-and-so was, praise all their avalanche instruction generosity, etc. it's so freeride to act like- this is just what can happen when you're doing rad stuff, this is tragic, they were doing what they loved, etc. but it's just too much sometimes, the rewards just not worth five quality people dying. you can 'know your stuff', whatever, and still it just takes one bad moment. not even a mistake, just one bad moment, and your life ends. it doesnt end for the families, the friends, the survivors. the tragedy haunts forever.

we make such a big bravado show convincing ourselves and one another just how awesome it is, how this is life to the fullest, but really, is it worth dying? sure I'm not supposed to say this, not supposed to feel this either. it's breaking the code of ethic around here. maybe the collective bro-brah-ego wants to feel braver for knowing lots of us fools are taking these risks? but seriously, at some point, when death brushes your cheek, dont you think that life is maybe too precious to risk on a few pow turns? like the quote above, "the more you know, the more you go". and the more likely you go too far, all it takes is once. notice how many of the 'best' arent alive anymore? we keep pushing ourselves, pushing nature, and it doesnt always end well. maybe we're fucking with something that's just a bit more lethal than we'd like to acknowledge?

Its heavy times, especially in light of the tragedy out in the Wasatch a week ago. Being good isnt good enough. We are fucking with death for the sake of an adrenaline rush and some respect from our bros.

Do what you will, follow your passion. For me staying alive is a necessary thing for living my life to the fullest. Fuck bravado. Mourn death. Treat your life as the precious gift that it is. You only live once, maybe it has a deeper meaning than we pretend.

The snow changed so drastically this week over a couple days. Tuesday became so sunny, and the snow morphed so rapidly, then Wednesday the really cold snow came back fast, thursday and Friday was mixed. Was there any warning on CAIC about these significant changes to help those who are not on the mountain every day?

Do you really need CAIC to tell you to be really fucking careful when heavy snowfall is causing HUGE avalanches to rip to the ground all week long? Any of the usual red flags are a BIG deal right now. You've (in a general sense) gotta be pretty ignorant to not be noticing we're in the middle of a pretty big cycle that probably will last at LEAST another week. Pretend we're back to January again.

With my season coming to an end on May 7, I'm chomping at the bit, too, to get on a real line before surgery, but please, please, please, chill out and slow down. If necessary, break out the bike and hit the desert to get your adrenaline dose (again, 'you' in the general sense). And shit, if that doesn't do it, go smoke a bowl or five. It's legal now. Please be smart/careful folks. Spring will come back, but we're back to winter for now.

(directed at ate'em)^I think I understand what you're saying, but life comes with no guarantees. Even playing it 100% safe, some random shit can kill you. My own risk tolerance is probably relatively low compared to most around here, but life without risk would be pretty dull indeed.

Dying in my sleep at a ripe old age sounds great, but that's just not how it plays out for a lot of folks, no matter how careful they think they're being.

Being good isnt good enough. We are fucking with death for the sake of an adrenaline rush and some respect from our bros.

You make some valid points, this wasn't one of them.

I am glad to have met Rick Gaukel. I spent a couple great days in Rocky Mountain National Park with him, pursuing our mutual passion. He was stoked to be alive, and like many of us, achieved that feeling through his experiences in the mountains. Rick passed away yesterday in an avalanche. You will be missed, Goodbye Rick.

"To those who have struggled with them, the mountains reveal beauties that they will not disclose to those who make no effort. That is the reward the mountains give to effort. And it is because they have so much to give and give it so lavishly to those who will wrestle with them that men love the mountains and go back to them again and again. The mountains reserve their choice gifts for those who stand upon their summits." — Sir Francis Younghusband.

i feel for the families of the dead, the effects are so deep. huge sympathies to those directly affected. simple- strength to you brother.

but looking beyond that, it's time to be honest with ourselves. it's so cool to put out the vibes, talk about how trained so-and-so was, praise all their avalanche instruction generosity, etc. it's so freeride to act like- this is just what can happen when you're doing rad stuff, this is tragic, they were doing what they loved, etc. but it's just too much sometimes, the rewards just not worth five quality people dying. you can 'know your stuff', whatever, and still it just takes one bad moment. not even a mistake, just one bad moment, and your life ends. it doesnt end for the families, the friends, the survivors. the tragedy haunts forever.

we make such a big bravado show convincing ourselves and one another just how awesome it is, how this is life to the fullest, but really, is it worth dying? sure I'm not supposed to say this, not supposed to feel this either. it's breaking the code of ethic around here. maybe the collective bro-brah-ego wants to feel braver for knowing lots of us fools are taking these risks? but seriously, at some point, when death brushes your cheek, dont you think that life is maybe too precious to risk on a few pow turns? like the quote above, "the more you know, the more you go". and the more likely you go too far, all it takes is once. notice how many of the 'best' arent alive anymore? we keep pushing ourselves, pushing nature, and it doesnt always end well. maybe we're fucking with something that's just a bit more lethal than we'd like to acknowledge?

Its heavy times, especially in light of the tragedy out in the Wasatch a week ago. Being good isnt good enough. We are fucking with death for the sake of an adrenaline rush and some respect from our bros.

Do what you will, follow your passion. For me staying alive is a necessary thing for living my life to the fullest. Fuck bravado. Mourn death. Treat your life as the precious gift that it is. You only live once, maybe it has a deeper meaning than we pretend.

Fuck you. What do you know. Stay inside. Leave TGR, because what do you have to contibute if you don't want to live a full life.

And I just left a bar where friends of one of the deceased were mourning. I've known death, and I don't care to see it again, but goddamnit, death is the only thing you can count on in life. So fuck your bullshit. Live life how you want. You know what makes skiing/snowboarding/mountain biking/rock climibing/ what ever 'extreme sport' you want to talk about fun? That risk. That chance that you might not make it out unscathed. But the truth of that matter is, as dangerous as people perceive all those sports to be, nothing is more dangerous than getting in your car to go to work each morning.

Kinda surprised the CAIC report doesn't say more, not that it changes anything.

Well it's a preliminary of preliminary report of course. I appreciate how the CAIC accident reports are compiled in such a precise and scientific manner. They're very careful not to disseminate incorrect information (the media could learn a thing or two from these pro's pros). Obviously the CAIC investigators were on the scene today. Will await a more detailed preliminary report.

Such a super sad tragedy. Can't imagine the mental and emotional hell Jerome is/will be dealing with, not to mention the victims' families. Vibes.

But this us part if the game. It ain't golf or tennis or some shit. It's playing with fucking fire. You and or your bestbuddy/wife/husband/kid/etc could get seriously fucked up or die. Some of us have had conversations about the reality with those we love - some have not. Some us us will only hang it out there in avalanche terrain with others we know and love and trust with our lives. My six year old son knows he or I or his mom or people we love could die doing what we love - skiing.

If any of this is new to you, you might want to think about what you're doing. Ask yourself if you are ready to die skiing. Ask your partners. If you are not ready for fucking reality, you might want to dial it back a bit or take up knitting.

If you are down with reality based life as a backcountry skier, you should get some avalanche and medical training.

Do you really need CAIC to tell you to be really fucking careful when heavy snowfall is causing HUGE avalanches to rip to the ground all week long? Any of the usual red flags are a BIG deal right now. You've (in a general sense) gotta be pretty ignorant to not be noticing we're in the middle of a pretty big cycle that probably will last at LEAST another week. Pretend we're back to January again.

With my season coming to an end on May 7, I'm chomping at the bit, too, to get on a real line before surgery, but please, please, please, chill out and slow down. If necessary, break out the bike and hit the desert to get your adrenaline dose (again, 'you' in the general sense). And shit, if that doesn't do it, go smoke a bowl or five. It's legal now. Please be smart/careful folks. Spring will come back, but we're back to winter for now.

In regards to CAIC saying anything, "Considerable" as a warning, seems vague and half-hearted for this sort of massive event, and also for the rapid heating and cooling we experienced the past 12 days.. Just a humble observation/statement and in no way intended to shift any blame.

In regards to CAIC saying anything, "Considerable" as a warning, seems vague and half-hearted for this sort of massive event, and also for the rapid heating and cooling we experienced the past 12 days.. Just a humble observation/statement and in no way intended to shift any blame.

Aside from the pretty typical rapid warming we get during the day (which IS a big red flag event), the other stuff isn't as impactful IMO. The wind and heavy snowfall is the real problem (hence, considerable). However, one should really be reading the entire avalanche bulletin. I'm not really a big fan of the simple rose from CAIC, as its way too simple for whats often going on out there, and leads to people being to complacent, IMO. Utah's avalanche bulletins are done in a much better way, highlighting each individual avalanche problem with it's own rose and detailed description - much easier to decipher the information contained within. That said, CAIC does what it can with it's resources, and I should probably stop thread drift now.