Anti-gunner in the pulpit?

I go to church (not as often as I maybe should), and this Sunday our out-going temporary minister was sermonizing on forgiveness. She chose the example of the October 2, 2006 Amish school shooting as demonstrating that the good Christians there forgave the murderer as a first priority.

She, the minister, then went on to say, "Just think what a better position we'd be now in if, after 9/11, we had not embarked on a war of vengeance, but concentrated our efforts on capturing the persons responsible." :scrutiny:

I don't want to talk about the exact political implications of her remarks, nor (what I saw as) the inconsistency behind them, but rather this: have any of you run into anti-gun sentiments expressed from a religious or spiritual leader?

If so how did you handle it?

(As I said, this was her last sermon with us, so all I did after service was wish her good travels, sincerely.)

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Deanimator

September 15, 2008, 11:56 AM

I don't want to talk about the exact political implications of her remarks, nor (what I saw as) the inconsistency behind them, but rather this: have any of you run into anti-gun sentiments expressed from a religious or spiritual leader?

If so how did you handle it?
I went to Catholic grammar and highschool in the '60s and '70s. In the '60s, I was forced to march in at least one anti-gun protest.

As I grew up, I became disgusted with the racism and leftism of the Catholic Church in Chicago. I was very openly pro-gun in highschool and never backed down when pressured on the issue. My gym bag had as many gun books as school books. My copy of Smallarms of the World usually went wherever I did.

My response was to first give up Catholicism, then religion in general.

One of the best decisions I ever made.

ranger335v

September 15, 2008, 11:59 AM

"She, the minister, then went on to say, "Just think what a better position we'd be now in if, after 9/11, we had not embarked on a war of vengeance, but concentrated our efforts on capturing the persons responsible."

Handle it with no comment, a smile and graciousness.

Wonder if it has ever occured to her that the core of those responsible for 911 actually died that day too? All we have done since 911 is attemp to prevent a reccurance by going after those who set it up and survived. In that we have, thus far, been successful, at least in this country. Those countries that have tried to hug the terrorists into submission; England, France, Denmark, Sweden, Indonesia, Pakistan, etc. have been unsuccessfull. If she can't see that herself there is no way she will see anything else from you.

Emtional fools are never changed with facts or logic so you would be beating a dead horse to attempt to change her mind. Her grasp of reality is too far from solid ground for you to even try to find a place to stand and speak with her about it.

I would find another church. In fact, another denomination. And pray for your present church/denomination's leadership.

bogie

September 15, 2008, 11:59 AM

Sounds more like an Obama voter... Wants to have CSI Miami, or whoever, go police-hunt the bad guy, and take them into an interrogation cell for five minutes until they break down and voluntarily confess.

I don't think it sounds "anti-gun," but I'll bet she doesn't like them either.

Don't read things into stuff that isn't there.

And as for embarking on a war of vengeance - the war of vengeance was already going. Only they started it long before this country was on earth. We're the biggest civilized guy in the bar, so they're going to go after us first. If they'd flown a cruise missile into Peking or into Red Square, there'd still be radiation warning areas throughout the middle east.

ibtl

ArmedBear

September 15, 2008, 11:59 AM

Did she say "God DAMN America!!!" a few times?

My response was to first give up Catholicism, then religion in general.

One of the best decisions I ever made.

Yeah. Some things have happened in my life that have led me to believe that faith is necessary. However, when I have any contact with religion these days, it seems to be filled with all sorts of drivel that's, at best, irrelevant to anything important.

Years ago, I used to think I should go to church, even though red flags were going up all over the place in my head. Now I don't know what to think, but "I should go to church" is not it.:)

Sounds more like an Obama voter...

That's another thing. I, personally, think that Obama supporters lack what a minister would call "the gift of discernment." I would not want such a person to be leading me up the spiritual garden path, personally.

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not, but the only person who can decide for me is me, based on my best efforts. It's what we're all stuck with.:)

GooseGestapo

September 15, 2008, 12:08 PM

I Timothy 2:8-15
II Timothy 3:6
I Corinthians 14:34

Picard

September 15, 2008, 12:11 PM

I would talk to the minister after service and explain your position. We can't expect everyone to know what we know. We must understand that even those in charge of leading Churches are still human beings that can make mistakes in their thinking.

One of the best decisions that I have made is to grow closer to the Catholic Church and to lead others towards clear-thinking, in issues of life, religion and even the RKBA. I started a youth group at my Church and the topic of unofficial discussion is often the RKBA. I don't push it, but fortunately I have two good friends that come which share my views. Slowly, we're spreading the word around.

The key is to be kind and gentle. Don't push your views on others. Often, you have to insert thoughts into other people's minds for them to dwell on for a while. Then, a while later, bring it up again to discuss. Slowly, hopefully, the people will begin to understand. From my experience, it seems to work.

Tribal

September 15, 2008, 12:13 PM

C.S. Lewis would probably tell you that you're expecting too much of your minister. Her job is to be a shepherd and something of a theologian; it's not to be an expert on politics and policy. Yes, she's (probably) speaking out of her depth, but did you let it ruin the sermon for you or did you take her overall point despite her flaws in making it?

My response was to first give up Catholicism, then religion in general.

One of the best decisions I ever made.

Don't let a few rotten apples spoil the barrel for you.

harmonic

September 15, 2008, 12:16 PM

She doesn't know what she's talking about. Like so many contemporary "ministers," she's ignorant of plain Bible teaching.

Someone should educate her re the relationship between government, evildoers and evil doing governments, in the Bible.

And to think that millions of church going folks trust such "ministers" re matters of salvation, as well.

If your so-called "minister" is that ignorant of the Bible and government, how can she be trusted to know about Bible matters even more important?

MD_Willington

September 15, 2008, 12:17 PM

Hmm, yep same rhetoric at our church, and now the last series almost mirrors the campaign of one of the people running for president...

retgarr

September 15, 2008, 12:17 PM

I don't see where she said anything against guns. She spoke about an incident that happened to involve guns. But the guns were secondary, forgiveness was the point.

ArmedBear

September 15, 2008, 12:19 PM

C.S. Lewis would probably tell you that you're expecting too much of your minister.

I don't think that wanting someone to try not to form strong opinions about something of which they are ignorant is a very high bar to set...

We're not talking about someone who lives next door; we're talking about someone in a leadership position, a position where she informs others about matters of deep import.

Zundfolge

September 15, 2008, 12:43 PM

this Sunday our out-going temporary minister was sermonizing on forgiveness

I wouldn't worry about it ... if you start getting a lot of political crap from your regular pastor then go find a new church, there's a ton of them out there. (just don't wait 20 years to leave :neener: )

SSN Vet

September 15, 2008, 12:49 PM

just because the mouse is in the cookie jar doesn't make it a cookie....

even if it's at the head of the den pontificating PC schpeak

Loosedhorse

September 15, 2008, 12:56 PM

did you let it ruin the sermon for you or did you take her overall point despite her flaws in making it?

It DID ruin the sermon for me (or I let it do so, fair enough--I, too, can be better). Perhaps not the least because my kids were there, too, and now I've got to explain why is it I disagree with G-d about 9/11.

If she were staying, I wouldn't mention guns or politics (her beliefs are hers), but would mention that, if one says something like, "We should pray for the guidance of our elected leaders," well, both sides of the aisle (pardon the pun) can agree with that. Same with nonspecific bromides against "war" or "violence"--I think most would agree that these are always "bad," even if they are occasionally clearly necessary.

SSN Vet

September 15, 2008, 01:05 PM

I've got to explain why is it I disagree with G-d about 9/11.

I think you've misplaced your source of authority if this is what you really think.