edit: a few other sensational stories are left out, but one that immediately came to mind was when he broke Johnny Kerr's Toe because he slammed the ball so hard through the net.

Anyway, watching all this and understanding that these videos don't even show Wilt at his best scoring wise (ie we don't have a full game of his scoring 40+ points), rebounding wise(though close) or blocking especially (many 25+ block games), knowing all the sensational things he did, and still, STILL you have people rating players like Tim Duncan over him, which is BEYOND PREPOSTEROUS.

Do you think its purely coincidental that none of these "many 25+ block games" exist on tape?

Dipper 13 wrote:As far as I know there is no full game of Wilt that still exists from the 60's. Certainly not to the public.

This is the biggest problem Dipper13 to me when trying to evaluate Wilt. No disrespect to you or the Wilt supporters but the perception I get for Wilt is as follows: The articles posted around Wilt's career, match the highlight videos so the conclusion is that Wilt played this way his entire career??

This is why I appreciate ThaRegul8tr's & Fatal9's posts because they also provide the other side of the context that isn't so readily made available.

A couple of points:

Reg, supplied an article detailing how in his 50 ppg season Wilt's teammates made it a goal to ensure not only did he get enough touches to make this happen but championed the idea for the good of the game at that time.

I have never seen a Wilt supporter respond to this claim and provide insight about this. I believe in this case Reg was making the point about how teammates can influences one ability on the court for the good or bad and thus the article was shared. No direct link but I believe it is early in the top peak project.

2nd point: Fatal9, one of my fav poster's, provides video evidence of a more normal Wilt like game, more of what we would expect to see and you can clearly see in Wilt much of the opposite to what people claim as truth in his abilities. Wilt vs Duncan thread. He certainly appears to be much more mortal in this 2:15 clip then in any other I have watched. And to confirm, any evidence you provide or videos shown, I watch/read in full detail.

I mean, someone has to own this footage of earlier nba and it needs to get released for proper evaluation. However, I am not so sure that this will benefit Wilt and what he brought to the game should this ever happen. Let me give you an analogy here:

We have all seen the Shaq highlight video's, where he is dunking on everyone, breaking the entire basketball net, not just the rim, etc. Now the reason one can critize Shaq is because almost every game, quote, etc is made public and more easily found. In reality, I know Shaq took plays off, didn't score everytime time down the court, hell he has been blocked, badly at times. Case and point I take the good with the bad but I still rank his overall basketball ability to what he did very high and I can back that up with statistical and video evidence if needbe.

With Wilt, I feel dependant on who the poster is determines what picture will be painted. Articles have been posted on this site citing no fg's taken, needing to be trashed talked to get motivated etc but I find none of the tenured Wilt supporters (I hold you here because you are a very informative poster regarding him) respond to this and just let it go.

The point I am trying to make is it's almost like because we know right now there is very little footage some poster's use this as a means to paint this indestructable picture of Wilt and use selected articles to back it up as fact. In today's world, most written opinion is easily disregarded as bias, uneducated or just plain ridiculous especially when in Wilt's time playing and in his 100 point documentary Russell himself states that he & Wilt were trying to get this sport on the map.

So to me, it makes sense then why the articles never really match up to the video eye test, right? Not to take anything away from Wilt but only to evaluate him on a proper level instead of the hype that I am sure was strategic to the times and critical to the game. I mean can you imagine what would happen when/if footage of his 50ppg season get released and posters see how his teammate's spoonfed Wilt? What will be the rebuttal then? How will people justify his impact etc? (BTW, none of that was directed at you, as you are a much more mature Wilt poster.) But the question remains. The playoff game(s) where he doesn't take a shot, look at what happened with Kobe in a somewhat like regard, right.

Again, it just doesn't add up to me. Sure he played on the Globetrotter's but all of the footage has him dunking (easy for him) haven't seen him utilized for his dribbling. Then you see him dribble in the post and you then know why. But poster's want to credit him as if he was part of the And1 tour. I think Wilt happened to be the circus attraction for a growing sport and certainly put the nba on the map. I think many of the articles, stroies that followed Wilt helped provoke the curiousity of non fans and like in his 50ppg season they utilized him like the big top feature. He was still a remarkable athlete and it takes nothing away with what he has done but it appears the legend of Wilt is off only by what people can read and see which happens to be tailored to promote Wilt rather then show full detail.

I just think there are other articles out there where people are hesitant to share because it may take away from this perception. And if the day full video evidence of Wilt comes out, I'll be one of the first in line to watch every single game available from start to finish.

This is hard to do. I have just seen many higlights of Wilt and some game play but i have seen Shaq from his rookie year to his last game for Boston.

Shaq 1999-2000 is the greatest player i have seen in my live. So i vote for him. Shaq dose not rank number 1 in my all time rankings of GOAT. But just for one season i take 1999-2000 Shaq over all the greatest Magic, Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Wilt, Russel and Jabbar.

Well, since players were allowed to undercut opponents without a foul being called, I'd assume that the rules were a little more favorable! Since Wilt never fouled out of a game, I'd say the rules were a little more favorable. And since about 95% of the "offensive fouls" you whine about were because the refs fall for flopping, I'd say it would not be an issue!

Brenice wrote:I'm one to think they both underachieved. Wilt's failures are brought up. I wonder what Shaq would have accomplished if he wasn't as lazy.

But unlike Shaq we are judging Wilt based off minimal highlight video's, newspaper articles and verbal opinion. This is kind of the point I am trying to make here. Shaq's career is all documented in video so you really can't make false claims because we can simply point to the video evidence when in doubt.

If everything we have on Wilt is highlight footage and we are questioning certain aspects, well what do you think will happen when we get the full video picture? Then we will have a true comparison and much more of Wilt as it actually happened versus what we are told happened.

Only sensitive to ridiculous comments. For example, why do you think he was lazy? Was it because he didn't sprint down the floor every single trip down? Was it because he didn't try to block every single shot? Was it because he didn't rebound every single missed shot?

Let me pose a few questions. Have you ever been 7 ft 1 and 325 lbs? If so, have you ever played 41,918 minutes of NBA basketball? Because that's what he did. It's not as easy for a person of that stature to play all out as it is for someone that's 6'2 and 180lbs. It's a little harder on the body! Add in the fact that he took the most physical abuse (as per Phil and Tex) than any other player in history. It takes its toll. Now, I'm not sure, Brenice, what type of person you are. Do you participate in any sports? Or other athletic events? Me, personally, I'm into weight training and martial arts. I train with weights 3 days a week and MA 3 to 4. And I run on the 6th day. Our MA classes run about 2 hours on a good day. I weight train for about 1 hr 45 minutes. Now, I've been doing this for years, and I'm in pretty decent shape. But I can tell you that after about an hour of Kata and Bunkai, I CANNOT go 100% for another hour of sparring at 100%. Or vice versa. And I'm in very good shape. So to say someone is "lazy" just because YOU don't think he gave enough effort is a ridiculous statement! If you say it's because he took "games off", then I point to TD. He's been sitting out games for years. If you say it's because he "paced himself", I would ask you why- and I'd answer that it was because he didn't want to go into the playoffs less than 100%, and that strategy worked every time! And his RS production didn't suffer. If it's because YOU think he SHOULD have grabbed more boards or blocked more shots, well, that's on you. Only he knows if he underachieved. But just because someone didn't perform up to YOUR armchair standards doesn't say squat about the player. It says more about your standards! You think that the player that is near the top of the all time charts on most stats underachieved! That's pretty rich!

His laziness comes into play when Shaq would not be in shape for the season or aiming to be in shape after the season starts. Call it ridiculous all you want, but that was lazy. He did it more than once. He had flaws too. The both of them, not just Wilt.

Wilt was a workout fanatic. Shaq was the opposite. Bottom line is Shaq was known for wanting to play his way into shape. Shaq did not reach his peak because of it. Wilt didn't reach his peak because for whatever reasons, he didn't want to hurt opponents, and wanted to please the media or whomever else that didn't matter that he was capable of leading the league in this or that.

Again, I direct you to KAJ. He admittedly would come into camp 40 lbs overweight because he liked being heavy enough to "push people around". And he played his way into shape during the season. Go back to that quote by Phil Jackson where he said that no matter how heavy Shaq was in camp, he was always in game shape when it came time to start the season. Now, am I to believe you? Or the coach that was actually THERE?

I'm chuckling at Shaq not reaching his peak. You do realize that he was just voted as having the #2 peak all time, right? But because he didn't reach the peak that YOU set out for him, he was lazy. Right. You make a ton of sense!

First, I'm talking about after Shaq left the Lakers. Second, you can believe who you want. Everything is opinion on here. That's why you shouldn't be sensitive. Nobody is talking fact in comparisons. Nobody. I respect some of these stat-geeks in Realgm, but they don't speak fact either. I like Shaq's take-no-prisoners style. If they can't stop it, keep doing it. But after he went to Miami, he was not as dominant, and part of that was his not keeping control of his weight during the off-season.

Brenice wrote:First, I'm talking about after Shaq left the Lakers. Second, you can believe who you want. Everything is opinion on here. That's why you shouldn't be sensitive. Nobody is talking fact in comparisons. Nobody. I respect some of these stat-geeks in Realgm, but they don't speak fact either. I like Shaq's take-no-prisoners style. If they can't stop it, keep doing it. But after he went to Miami, he was not as dominant, and part of that was his not keeping control of his weight during the off-season.

Can I just ask two questions?

1) Do you know what year Shaq was entering in his career when he joined Miami?

2) What is your tenure expectation for professional athlethes to remain in their prime/peak?

jaypo wrote:Well, since players were allowed to undercut opponents without a foul being called, I'd assume that the rules were a little more favorable! Since Wilt never fouled out of a game, I'd say the rules were a little more favorable. And since about 95% of the "offensive fouls" you whine about were because the refs fall for flopping, I'd say it would not be an issue!

I blame MacGill for tempting me into looking at this thread.

Now keep in mind I rank Shaq above Wilt. But the biggest problem I have with Shaq's impact is the following (I'm sure you will deny this to your grave)

Shaq came into the league when the league was struggling to find it's next group of superstars. You had a series of weak drafts with no true superstar talent. Where was the next crop to replace MJ, Hakeem, Barkley etc. The league had transitioned from a Lakers vs Celtics marketing theme during the 80's to a Magic vs MJ theme in the 90's. They were selling stars and had very little star power in the stable.

So they started letting Shaq get away with things that were always offensive fouls. He was given a get of of jail card to physically overpower his defender. This started the first wave of floppers who had nothing left to combat this style. Stand your ground and get run over for a dunk or flop and pray for a call.

I still think Shaq could have been an even better player if the league made him work for it. As a side note Wilt played more of a finesse offensive game.

“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”― William Shakespeare

Brenice wrote:I know all that. But his ascension was dramatic. When he went to Miami, he still should have been Batman. He could have played Robin to Kobe if they would have gotten along.

Well that's kind of how it works when you are the size of a compact sports car . For comparison, I believe Wilt only played 13 years pro, Russell around the same and more modern off the top of my head KAJ/Hakeem are the only other 2 players at center to play as long as be as productive (someone correct me if my dates are off).

Shaq was still a very productive player in 05 & 06 but time, injuries certainly caught up and played a role. And let's not get into the whole LA topic because what is done is done but that has nothing to do with the points you are trying to make.

Most nba players careers come to end well before they'd even venture into Miami Shaq tenure in the league. That's pretty impressive to me.

I think its a fair argument to say that Shaq might have prolonged his dominance from the early 00's had he continued dedicating himself to fitness the way he did in 1998-2000 where he was really shredded physically and in amazing shape.

However Shaq still ended his career with a good 10-12 Super-Star level seasons.Only Jordan, Kareem, Magic and Russell have a similar amount career wise.

In terms of All-Star level seasons or complete longevity Shaq is still up there with the very best.Don't forget he started playing in 92/93.

O'neal was 2nd in MVP voting in 1995 and 2nd in MVP voting in 2005.That is excellent longevity.

Also while Miami Shaq was not the same player he was in LAL (not after the 05 injury anyway) he was still one of the most impactful/valuable players in the league by my estimation in both years.

Still I think his playoff career value was arguably on par with even Jordan.