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Member

They go back home and demand submission. Where is 'as Christ loved His church and GAVE Himself for her?' Not representative of the whole? Read elsewhere on the net and the anger at even questioning 'Biblical Manhood' practically grabs you by the throat. Better that we let women teach than sit under this type of 'scriptural' order.

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Active Member

This article is a hatchet job...the links in the article demonstrate that the writer has an agenda, I wouldn't put too much into this....She titles the article..."urinating on women" the truth is....at an all-male conference, men were permitted to use the women's restroom and apparently urine was found in numerous places (on seats, wall..etc). She called this urinating on "women" not on the walls and floor....anyone ever have a small boy? I wouldn't sweat this.

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Active Member

I just came back to this and actually read the article, and I have the following responses:

1. If these men urinated on the walls on purpose, they should be rebuked and beaten by their wives. :laugh: Anyone who did this does not really believe that women compliment them, they believe women are below them, and are grossly misrepresenting Christ and the biblical teaching on women.

2. In nearly every paragraph, I found statements by the author that were either innaccurate statements, conclusions that did not necessarily follow from the facts, or simply wild accusations.

3. It is ironic that she accuses Bauchim of sensationalistically stiring up ferver against an opponent, because that is exactly what she is doing with this article. It is pure sensationalism: Even the title misleads the reader as to what actually happened.

4. Even her first description is innacurate: "Complementarianism assigns strict gender roles to women and men with women being subordinate to men in all things." I have yet to meet a complimentarian who believes this.

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Member

I could be having some knee- jerk reactions to some of the stuff I'm coming across dealing with what I have typically heard called "The Women's Issue". Many moons ago my wife and I just understood that 'The man is head of the house'. She would tell you that I did not abuse this at all. (That is, if I let her.LOL) For all practical purposes, though we lived out our relationship as equals. We never really considered each other as anything other than equal in every way. (Well... I was pound per pound stronger than she.) Something in this area was in some way very oppressive for her. It wasn't until after we re-looked at the Word and came to the conclusion that the Scripture teaches equality that she felt a heavy weight lifted off of her. Now as I am seeing what some women have experienced at the hands of those who Do abuse this doctrine I sometimes weep for them. When I think about the pastors, husbands, churches, and respected men who do still abuse this I want to be able to make them feel the fear, intimidation, the pain, and even the almost subconscious feeling that God loves men more than He loves women that many women feel. I will try to be more careful in watching for those who abuse their platform of influence to do 'hatchet jobs.' One other thing... Though I am still pound per pound stronger than she is, my wife has earned two black belts in two separate martial arts!!!

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Member

I just came back to this and actually read the article, and I have the following responses:

1. If these men urinated on the walls on purpose, they should be rebuked and beaten by their wives. :laugh: Anyone who did this does not really believe that women compliment them, they believe women are below them, and are grossly misrepresenting Christ and the biblical teaching on women.

2. In nearly every paragraph, I found statements by the author that were either innaccurate statements, conclusions that did not necessarily follow from the facts, or simply wild accusations.

3. It is ironic that she accuses Bauchim of sensationalistically stiring up ferver against an opponent, because that is exactly what she is doing with this article. It is pure sensationalism: Even the title misleads the reader as to what actually happened.

4. Even her first description is innacurate: "Complementarianism assigns strict gender roles to women and men with women being subordinate to men in all things." I have yet to meet a complimentarian who believes this.

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I know I posted this in a previous thread, but I think it applies here:

Those who do abuse women using Scripture as a platform are probably(I hope) in the minority. If you are being abused the statistics don't matter. When those who would abuse hear leaders like Patterson and Piper say what is said in the two urls I posted ( have yet to find any kind of retraction, or policy change) they have a wide open field in in which they can run and abuse to their hearts desire. Abusers tend to know who they can be in a relationship with that they can abuse, and intimidate without fear of them leaving for good. To these women the above article would probably dead on the truth. I know you don't tolerate abuse as you stated. That much we agree on.
You probably noticed that even the question to John Piper is asked in such a way as to put the belief of submission before concern about the abused person. What should submission loo like in light of abuse...

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Well-Known Member

My Bible talks about wivews submitting to their husbands, but husbands to be walking in a worthy manner, in order to receive submission of their wives!

Nothing that I read about women to men in general relationships!

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Watch out, someone will call you a liberal.

On a more serious note, men love the verse about wives submitting ... but far too many do not read, or if they have read do not pay attention to the following verses and apply them to their lives in the way they treat their wives and daughters.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

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The call for the man's submission is far greater than that of the wife. The husband is to put their needs and wishes ahead of his own.

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Well-Known Member

Where is there a qualifier in the Scriptures that women submit to their husbands only when the husband is walking in a worthy manner? I don't see any conditions on the commands.

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I was trying to say that woman are called to submit, but that men are called to be "as christ" would be towards them in their behavour!
As I do NOT see the Lord saying submit to being battered, or sexually abused etc!

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Well-Known Member

Where is there a qualifier in the Scriptures that women submit to their husbands only when the husband is walking in a worthy manner? I don't see any conditions on the commands.

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I would say the verses following the submission of women verse. If the man is not following the directives in those verses he is not being as Christ to the church. There is no directive IMHO for a woman to submit to husbands who are not following God's directions.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

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Administrator

Administrator

I would say the verses following the submission of women verse. If the man is not following the directives in those verses he is not being as Christ to the church. There is no directive IMHO for a woman to submit to husbands who are not following God's directions.

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See, I don't see a qualifier in there such as "Women, submit to your husbands as long as they are worthy" or something like that.

If my husband isn't loving me like Christ loved the church, then he is being disobedient. His being disobedient doesn't give me a pass to no longer submit to him. I see each command as a separate order - not based on the other.

Do you think a husband cannot love his wife like Christ loved the church if his wife is not submitting to him?

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Well-Known Member

See, I don't see a qualifier in there such as "Women, submit to your husbands as long as they are worthy" or something like that.

If my husband isn't loving me like Christ loved the church, then he is being disobedient. His being disobedient doesn't give me a pass to no longer submit to him. I see each command as a separate order - not based on the other.

Do you think a husband cannot love his wife like Christ loved the church if his wife is not submitting to him?

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Administrator

Administrator

Does submitting mean participating in sin? No. If a husband is physically abusing a wife, he is breaking the law. Verbal abuse is less clear and honestly, that would have to be handled on a case by case basis. Leaving a husband for a time does not mean that a woman is being unsubmissive when a husband is putting her life in danger.

But what about if my husband was selfish and instead of coming home from work to spend time with me, he always went out with friends? What if I didn't feel well and he didn't help take care of things around the house? What if my husband didn't love me but tolerated me and was willing to stay married? Am I allowed to not submit to him?

I hear many women making the excuse that their husband doesn't do what they are supposed to do so they are not going to listen to the Bible and submit to him. Instead, they are going to do whatever they want. But I ask for where in the Bible it says that a husband has to do something to get his wife to submit to him - or where a wife has to do something to get her husband to love her and I get a blank stare or a bunch of arguments. It's just not there.

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Well-Known Member

See, I don't see a qualifier in there such as "Women, submit to your husbands as long as they are worthy" or something like that.

If my husband isn't loving me like Christ loved the church, then he is being disobedient. His being disobedient doesn't give me a pass to no longer submit to him. I see each command as a separate order - not based on the other.

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You have to keep them together to keep the context. Both must submit IMHO.

Do you think a husband cannot love his wife like Christ loved the church if his wife is not submitting to him?

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Yes, a husband can and should love his wife like Christ loved the church whether she submits or not. After all Christ loved us while we were yet sinners.

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Member

Does submitting mean participating in sin? No. If a husband is physically abusing a wife, he is breaking the law. Verbal abuse is less clear and honestly, that would have to be handled on a case by case basis. Leaving a husband for a time does not mean that a woman is being unsubmissive when a husband is putting her life in danger.

But what about if my husband was selfish and instead of coming home from work to spend time with me, he always went out with friends? What if I didn't feel well and he didn't help take care of things around the house? What if my husband didn't love me but tolerated me and was willing to stay married? Am I allowed to not submit to him?

I hear many women making the excuse that their husband doesn't do what they are supposed to do so they are not going to listen to the Bible and submit to him. Instead, they are going to do whatever they want. But I ask for where in the Bible it says that a husband has to do something to get his wife to submit to him - or where a wife has to do something to get her husband to love her and I get a blank stare or a bunch of arguments. It's just not there.

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I don't think this can be communicated in this manner, or even talking face to face, but here goes. The type of treatment you have just described goes on a whole lot more than any of us realize. Now here's the part you may not get unless you or someone Very close to you have been through it. When a wife continually submits with that type of abuse going on they will tell you they start experiencing something like a slow (I mean very slow) painful DEATH. Everyday is survived, not lived. They feel like a zombie. Christian women are brought to the point of wishing God would let them die. This is not an exaggeration. Any women out there that can corroborate this or expand on it please do so. This is not something that is trumped up as an excuse to escape submission. It is Because they have submitted that they really lose Feeling (joy, love, sadness....) The normal, God created emotions fade. They walk around and look like us, but they are emotional zombies. Slowly....Painfully.....Dieing.....Every....Single....Day. Even the pain is described as a dull, distant agonizing "Please God let me die" pain.

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