Yeah the cooldown on WoG-heals will seriously screw us up and will make us pretty much unviable in any composition in 2v2. They are only going to nerf prot with bigger cooldowns, no guaranteed holy power and stuff like that. It looks bad for us in pvp and pve. Its rediculous rogues selfhealing gets buffed etc. Basically: we're screwed.

Okay, you got me there. I did read a short version of the patchnotes and didn't check on all class-patchnotes. We are still getting nerfed big time tough. I mean, our selfhealing will be less, our mitigation will be less and our damage is already less.

We're not too concerned with keeping Protection viable in PvP. We know some players enjoy it... It’s a great goal to make all of a class's specs viable in PvP, but it's not always possible to do so and paladins have other options.

Raaaaaaaaaaaaaage >_<

It's frustrating when a rogue outheals AND outdamages me. I'm not saying they were buffed, merely that it hurts to see their selfhealing stay the same (and very potent when played well!) while ours is reduced significantly.

I absolutely hate "the sky is falling" type posts. But that blue response has really ruined my day.

"We’re not too concerned with keeping Protection viable in PvP. We know some players enjoy it, but the majority of Prot paladins are more concerned with their ability to tank, and that’s where we spend most of our Protection design effort. It’s a great goal to make all of a class’s specs viable in PvP, but it’s not always possible to do so and paladins have other options."

This, after finally being able to see that there is another half to this game, having that being taken away so whimsically. And the insult added to the injury: "paladins have other options"... like holy... and holy... and holy... or why don't you try holy? Ret? Naah, we're nerfing them too. Srsly, have you considered holy?

It's the same thing they said of Pally PvE in vanilla (you can be holy or holy if you want to raid). If it wasn't a blue posting it, it would be a nasty nasty troll...

Here's hoping they see the light before 4.1. I don't want to be holy. If I wanted to heal I'd do so (but I suck at it and don't enjoy it).

So haven't been on the maintankadin fourms in a while, saw this thread. Wow. Alot of great info and the link to taugrimms page is awesome. I always enjoyed prot pvp and was kinda sad there wasn't much dicussion on it on the offical fourms other that "prot sucks."

Couple questions for you guys. My paladin is a human, so i don't need the trink. Currently I'm using both the Insignia and the Badge for trinkets. General comments are the insignia is a waste, what would be a good replacment for it?

Also landslide is not quite aviable to my guild nor do i see it up for sale. What's a good poor man's altertanive to that? Back to berzerking?

First off, make sure your shield has a Titanium Plating enhancement from Blacksmithing. This is a MUST if you intend to chant your weapon with anything other than a Weapon Chain, it gives you the disarm reduction which is vital when rogues/warriors and even shadow priests get a disarm on you.

As far as prot chants go, I'm not a fan of anything for PVP other than Windwalk. The number of times I've had 132% movement speed save my life in 2's is pretty critical. The alternative to Windwalk really depends on what you're going to be doing as Prot PVP. Rated BG's? Arena? Casual? I don't like the idea of berserking since you're taking additional physical damage due to the Negative Armor it gives you. Mending may be an alternative considering you're usually going to keep SoI on a lot of the time for self healing. I have considered it, but kept my tanking weapon with Windwalk. Also your best race for PVP prot is actually Draenei, 20% of your HP is a LOT more than 20% of say a Ret paladins HP.

The highest we've had our 2's team at so far was 2250, but since I picked up a Zin I'm going ret and my DK partner and I are looking to do 3's and put our scum cleave (prot paly and blood dk) on hold for now. For 2's I went with maximum survival and for this I stacked stam/resil and stam/str gems in gear with around 3600 resil and roughly 145k hp unbuffed. In the comp we run I'm usually the focus target and against any makeup we have to just weather the storm and then strike back when we've got the advantage.

You are NOT a DPS. Prot has amazing survival and decent support abilities and you need to play as such. If I use all of my focus on damage I will lose in most situations. Your primary role in BG's is guarding flags in AB/Gilneas and making sure no one caps which you can do VERY well, running the flag in Twin Peaks/Warsong is another strong point of yours. The longer you fight the stronger you get except against some classes.

As far as trinkets go for you, just use ones with resil. You need resil like you need air to breathe. Remember your role in arena/bgs, you are a flag running, interrupting, lockdown, damn near unkillable monster. Let the DPS have their killing blows, at the end of the day when you kept 7 of the enemy at bay on a flag in AB the rest of the map is taken by your team.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

Sonic wrote:I'm familiar with the basics. Though with bezerking, it's only a 5% loss on armor isn't it. I'm using mending currently though it seems... weak.

I'm not gonna mention how often I've been at sub 10% in 2's. With 5% armor loss I'm pretty sure I'd be dead in those situations. As weak as mending is, it's still better than Berserking tbh. You aren't there for a DPS increase, and any additional self healing is preferable to another 300 damage on your CS. You don't take the 10% armor from talents because you need them for HoJ and JotJ, so don't neglect the 5% armor. That can equate to a damage intake from all other physical classes that could make or break the fight.

Like I said before the only reason I'm sticking with Windwalk is due to the run speed buff, it makes catching people much easier without a proper snare.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

Sonic wrote:Also landslide is not quite aviable to my guild nor do i see it up for sale. What's a good poor man's altertanive to that? Back to berzerking?

Avalanche seems cheap. Haven't considered it in comparison to zerking, though.

Vort wrote:As far as prot chants go, I'm not a fan of anything for PVP other than Windwalk. The number of times I've had 132% movement speed save my life in 2's is pretty critical.

Innnnteresting. How does the speed boost with snares like frost traps or Descration? Do they multiply? Unholy DK teams /destroy/ my partner and I because they just kite the heck out of me. (Tips are welcome.)

Windwalk is superior for several reasons, when you get it inside of a movement impairing effect it's not going to break you out of it or anything but it will assist slightly. If an unholy DK is on you, you have only 1 option since kiting is almost impossible with desecrate. You are going to be punching on with his pet, and self healing like a monster, I VERY rarely swap from Seal of Insight in 2's any more and only do so if we're focusing a druid/shaman. Chasing anything down that kites (Hunters/Mages) the proc is absolutely vital, 132% movement speed is amazing. The windwalk can proc from Judgement so it's like having a Long Arm of the Law proc and it's won us several games. The other main reason for Windwalk over all other chants on your weapon is very simple - you are NOT a dps, so any mobility assisting procs are welcome over something that lets you hit slightly harder. We have never won a game by dishing out more damage than the enemy, we win via attrition and nothing but. After the enemy has expelled as much energy into killing us, we return everything right back at them.

Kelaan wrote:Unholy DK teams /destroy/ my partner and I because they just kite the heck out of me.

Odd, I've never had an unholy dk attempt to kite me, they usually sit either one of us until they realize their healer is going to oom and then they try switching. As soon as the switch goes out, the person they are now targeting goes into self heal mode and free player gets on the healer.

Some more information on your setup would be good, an armory link to your profile would help if you've got PVP prot spec/gear on. I know what seems to work best in my setup after much testing and napkin maths, your comp might be vastly different so hit me up with some links and I might have some insight.

We're at 2275 right now, we had a few unlucky losses this week (I blame my DK for not realizing his Icebound Fortitude didn't cost Runic Power and he got killed inside a stun >.<) and last night was a good 8 for 1- the last game was a loss. I've specced Ret for 3's which my partner is finding a healer for, so all of my gems/chants went from prot style to ret and the result was a much MUCH squishier Vortimosa /cry.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/hyjal/kelaan/advanced(In my pvp gear, surprisingly. I sold my trinkets back as I believe I will have enough points this week to get two trinkets, so I've been 'renting' them when we do matches. I've had good results this week with the on-use +Str one, since we almost never face mages, and are low enough rating that we've never been spellstolen. )

I'm partnered with a hunter. He used to be SV, now is Marks. (Kings + TSA is nice, at least.)

We normally aim to burn down the healer, as rarely can we control them long enough to prevent them from healing their partner. Cålvin (my partner) seems to almost always be the focused target, so I normally will drop HoSacrifice and a bubble on him, as well as heals when I can. Rarely, he can kite their DPS partner while I work on the healer; lately I've been using Holy Power on ShoR rather than healing, in preparation for the upcoming WoG nerf.

If an unholy DK is on you, you have only 1 option since kiting is almost impossible with desecrate. You are going to be punching on with his pet, and self healing like a monster...

I VERY rarely swap from Seal of Insight in 2's any more and only do so if we're focusing a druid/shaman.

Because I'm normally not a DPS target until my partner is dead, SoI seems somewhat useless on me: I can't seem to stop and heal him (FoL, DL) fast enough to be worth anything. Perhaps I should try it more, but for now results seems to be best when I play like DPS. Because my partner is kiting so much of the time, I often end up doing more total damage than he does. I still stack resilience where it seems reasonable, but tend to gem/enchant/gear for damage.

The matches we win seem to be the ones where my partner survives long enough for one of us to kill an enemy, and the ones we lose are the ones where it's two vs me. I seem to do really well when hugging a healer for interrupts and silences, but it gets hairy when the other team has a frequently-applicable snare or CC (fear, MC, earthbind, desecration, frostbolt). I'm planning to write some macros so I can Gift of the Naaru my partner more easily, too.

Windwalk is superior for several reasons... Chasing anything down that kites (Hunters/Mages) the proc is absolutely vital, 132% movement speed is amazing. The windwalk can proc from Judgement so it's like having a Long Arm of the Law proc and it's won us several games.

That sounds REALLY good. Healers that kite are a bane, and I've sorely missed Long Arm of the Law's speed boost.

Kelaan wrote:Unholy DK teams /destroy/ my partner and I because they just kite the heck out of me.

Odd, I've never had an unholy dk attempt to kite me, they usually sit either one of us until they realize their healer is going to oom and then they try switching.

For us, the DK tries to beat on my hunter, hunter kites away, and I can't keep up because the DK is leaving desecrations in his wake the whole time. When it's DK+healer vs me, either one can get out of melee range of me, so I can't control either one. When I don't have frequent snares on me, Pursuit of Justice seems to be enough... but I think I'll try Windwalk. I haven't yet dropped the (relatively large) money on the AP enchant, so I'm still using the semi-ghetto Avalanche enchant for extra damage. (I'm using the PvE weapon because I get more resilience from buying trinkets, and the damage range is the same as the good pvp weapons.)

Hunter certainly doesn't sound like the best class to be paired with, no offense to your hunter intended of course. I think we work best with a Blood DK because they are self sufficient and can still dish out the hurt, at least that's what I've experienced so far even in the 2200-2300 bracket.

Spec looks about right, I usually drop DG and 1 point in SotP for 2 points Reck. When I am the focus target, any additional self heals via Insight is a bonus and I found that switching to Reck let me deal with all sorts of physical classes. This probably isn't the case for you as you're needing to DPS down a target since you're rarely the focus.

I still use a Soul-Blade with windwalk on it for PVP Prot, so you're not wrong in keeping a PVE DPS weapon. The DPS is high and it has favorable stats for you.

Kelaan wrote:lately I've been using Holy Power on ShoR rather than healing, in preparation for the upcoming WoG nerf.

I'm still somewhat skeptical of the change going in as is, and why not use it while you can? I also found out after playing ret for even just a crazy short time why they want to change WoG, but they're still not fixing the real issue which is Vengeace and as I recently saw first hand - Divine Purpose and Zealotry. With multiple procs of that stuff you can WoG spam like absolute crazy. Ret paladins can output 15-20k HPS in PVP with luck, which is just absolute insanity. In 3 GCD's you can have a Divine Purpose go into an Eternal Glory for another WoG, so let's assume you get 1 crit out of 3 with Selfless Healer you're going to heal for over 100K in 5~ seconds. I still think the problem lies with the abilities that WoG benefits from, Vengenace/Divine Purpose/Zealotry. Just fix Divine Purpose to only include Inquisition and Templars Verdict, and Vengeance needs a nerf in general.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

Vort wrote:Hunter certainly doesn't sound like the best class to be paired with...

My impression was that we work well with a melee person, esp one that can selfheal or has extra mitigation -- double prot, etc. Hunter isn't so bad -- we have won several matches where he's been able to swap targets from someone he's kiting to a healer that I've been working on. A ranged partner helps a lot in that regard. I imagine that a warlock, DK, or mage would be more effective. However, I can't complain - he's a friend that I enjoy playing with. Once his DK is higher level, he may be amenable to PvPing on him, I'll ask then.

I usually drop DG and 1 point in SotP for 2 points Reck. When I am the focus target, any additional self heals via Insight is a bonus and I found that switching to Reck let me deal with all sorts of physical classes. This probably isn't the case for you as you're needing to DPS down a target since you're rarely the focus.

My spec was very WoG focused, per Taugrim's advice. Now that WoG's eating a nerf (and I don't use it nearly as much), I have not reevaluated my glyph choices yet. (I use SoTruth enough that glyphing it probably makes sense, and lets me reforge for crit instead.)

I did not spec Reckoning, thinking that (as you noted) I rarely am attacked. However, it might help a LOT in a 1v1 scenario. I'll think about it; I guess I've never noticed how often I block in PvP -- looking at my character screen the other day, I have ~25% block, which is more than I thought I would have. I'll have to balance that with most of my damage being on people that aren't attacking me, though (healers, or people focusing my partner).

I'm still somewhat skeptical of the change going in as is, and why not use it while you can? ... Ret paladins can output 15-20k HPS in PVP with luck, which is just absolute insanity.

Ah the joys of Avenger's Shield silences. Yeah, I still abuse WoG whenever I feel it's useful (better to win than Win Properly ), but I've been playing with much more of a DPS mindset. Previously, I would dump almost all my holy power on healing Calvin, whereas now I will pop wings + Str trinket and beat on a healer.

Agreed on the potential for Zealotry + WoG, though. /shiver. Calvin and I have nearly never lost to a team with a Ret paladin, though -- probably because all the skilled ones have gone to higher rating brackets?

I partnered with a hunter for a month or so when I started up cata arenas. Sadly I think hunters are pretty much the worst class in pvp right now. I have yet to meet one, even good ones, that I had a hard time with. If they are kiting me, I have the pet as a battery while I get to them.

On the other side of the coin, they don't have the burst damage they used to. Its very easy to get in their dead zone where their melee skills have been destroyed. They just aren't threating to another class thats attacking them back.

My (old) partner was pretty much usless if he got focused no matter what I did to help him. We usually won if we could burst (ha!) down someone before he died or left them low enough I could get them before CD's came back up.

Kelaan wrote:Agreed on the potential for Zealotry + WoG, though. /shiver. Calvin and I have nearly never lost to a team with a Ret paladin, though -- probably because all the skilled ones have gone to higher rating brackets?

Nah, they're all playing Prot!

I haven't tried 2's with a Hunter so I'm not sure on what they're strengths are like when paired with a Prot Paladin. I've done games with Warlock/Spriest/Frost Mage at the 1800 bracket before and they all seem to work quite well. Like I said though, the best partner has some self sufficiency. The Blood DK thing was initially a joke, we never actually thought we could get to the rating we're at. I've also found WoG to be my biggest finisher for holy power, in almost ALL situations. If there is a DPS focusing my DK and I'm on the healer then I'll liberally use WoG on my partner. This lets him stack necrotic strikes instead of Death Striking.

I've healed for about 200k in the span of 15 seconds due to Zealotry/Divine Purpose. It's a filthy mechanic for WoG spam, that's a major concern. If they made threat matter and scaled back the way ret can spam WoG randomly in PVP then I think the 20 second cooldown would be completely abolished.

I'm going to start PVPing Ret in 3's this weekend but still speccing PVP prot each week to see if we can jump over 2300. Problem is I need to regem a fair bit or else I'm squishy by comparison.

I forgot one piece of advice that I pretty much liberally follow for 2's. Charge in and Hammer someone almost as soon as you can, even if you're going to run away there is a good chance people will assume you're Ret and blow their PVP trinket Immediately. My other comment would be on SoT, no argument that it's the best DPS seal but does it ever conflict with your partners Trap? Would SoR be more beneficial since you could swap targets that way? I used to do 3's in BC with a hunter when I played MS warrior and we had to be very careful of Deep Wounds for traps.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

Sonic wrote:They just aren't threating to another class thats attacking them back.

This may be why we seem to have luck when I and my partner are both beating on the healer, despite him taking damage. If he can kite, awesome, but the healer is rarely in his deadzone, and often his snares/silences help me kill the healer.

Vort wrote:... the best partner has some self sufficiency.

Agreed! This is part of why I keep Divine Guardian: 6 seconds of cooldown on my partner. (It's pretty miniscule.)

Charge in and Hammer someone almost as soon as you can, even if you're going to run away there is a good chance people will assume you're Ret and blow their PVP trinket Immediately.

What else would they use their PvP trinket on? The snare from AS? (I normally do that first so I can use it again once GC procs.) I guess it opens them up to other things that my partner can apply.

Does {Seal of Truth} ever conflict with your partners Trap? Would SoR be more beneficial since you could swap targets that way?

YES IT DOES. >_< We communicate a bit more now, though, and he usually is trapping the other target. I hadn't thought about SoR, though - is the damage similar? If I'm not glyphing for expertise, how different is the damage? Frankly, I usually like having the DoT to break stealth on people, but it ultimately comes down to numbers I can apply to reducing their health, and I'd use SoR if it were better.

Kelaan wrote:What else would they use their PvP trinket on? The snare from AS? (I normally do that first so I can use it again once GC procs.) I guess it opens them up to other things that my partner can apply.

Most PVPers save the trinket for something they NEED to break, if you force a break early it means the next HoJ they won't have a break for and it could be when they're at 50% hp rather than 100%. I know I usually save my trinket for something vital rather than something trivial. If I get HoJ'd in PVP I'll usually eat it unless there is a chance of death for myself or my partner. People often see a paladin with low mana and assume they're Ret and as soon as the hammer goes off they trinket because they expect massive burst damage coming. This messes up the timing they have on their trinkets as you'll get two consecutive HoJ's with no breaks. From there you can either push with HoJ off cooldown to push them further on the back foot, or you can save it for things like Aura Mastery.

Kelaan wrote:I hadn't thought about SoR, though - is the damage similar? If I'm not glyphing for expertise, how different is the damage?

I'm at work right now so I can't do the exact testing with my setup. But I'm pretty sure there is a numbers value somewhere around. I know it's less overall damage than SoT, but it's certainly an alternative if it breaks CC.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

SoR has higher judment damage vs non-stacked Truth and it's also going to be less after the 5 stack on hit also. Truth is better overall but it's decent damage if you don't need the extra healing. I can't imagine you NOT needing extra healing in a double dps setup though.

Sonic wrote:SoR has higher judment damage vs non-stacked Truth and it's also going to be less after the 5 stack on hit also. Truth is better overall but it's decent damage if you don't need the extra healing. I can't imagine you NOT needing extra healing in a double dps setup though.

This is the reason why I run almost exclusively with SoI and have it glyphed. I very VERY rarely switch to SoT, and the only other seal I find myself using is Justice as the debuff is critical to catch druids and shamans. SoR is the second highest DPS seal we have, Truth being way ahead of everything else, but Righteousness being well above Justice and the non damaging Insight.

Also keep in mind if you aren't being attacked by melee that you're going to go OOM if you spam all of your abilities off cd. This is why I like to keep insight up rather than anything else if possible. It tops me up from AoE damage and keeps my mana at maximum if I need to spam FoL for whatever reason. Radiance costs a LOT of mana but shouldn't be neglected since it's around 10k HP for yourself and your partner if they're close enough.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

If I can't push enough damage out to net a kill before it's 2v1 (or shortly thereafter), healing doesn't help me much. I'll swap to SoI later in the fight, but since it's almost 10% of my damage on a single target it's tempting to use it even then. It depends a lot on my opponents, I guess. If I get focused first, defensive cooldowns + an unmolested hunter means that we get a kill relatively quickly. If my hunter gets focused, I'm not taking enough damage to warrant SoI right now.

At higher brackets it will likely change. However, I'm noticing it in 3v3 also. We can't push out enough damage with just me + hunter, a lot of the time, and I haven't seemed to be able to heal enough to matter. Our disc priest went shadow and our win rate doubled (1/10 to 1/5 ). Our best matches were when I was able to get a healer low, force a trinket with a HoJ (plus low health), and then do it again later with wings up. I also noticed kiting healers a LOT more in 3s, so Windwalk is even more tempting - I just can't yet justify the expenditure.

edit: Great point about radiance's costs and merits. My partner rarely seems to be close enough for it to work, but I still forget to use it. I normaly cast DG first, and heals later. FoL seems to not work well for me - by the time I can cast it once or twice, my partner's basically taken as much damage as I healed. Would divine light be better? (Soo slooowwww.) I'll have to macro them together so that I can use a modifier to pick which one I'm using.

Kelaan wrote:Great point about radiance's costs and merits. My partner rarely seems to be close enough for it to work, but I still forget to use it. I normaly cast DG first, and heals later. FoL seems to not work well for me - by the time I can cast it once or twice, my partner's basically taken as much damage as I healed. Would divine light be better? (Soo slooowwww.) I'll have to macro them together so that I can use a modifier to pick which one I'm using.

Which is why I use my holy power almost exclusively on WoG.

I have a macro that I hit religiously when my partner is getting focused.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

Kelaan wrote: If I can't push enough damage out to net a kill before it's 2v1 (or shortly thereafter), healing doesn't help me much. I'll swap to SoI later in the fight, but since it's almost 10% of my damage on a single target it's tempting to use it even then. It depends a lot on my opponents, I guess. If I get focused first, defensive cooldowns + an unmolested hunter means that we get a kill relatively quickly. If my hunter gets focused, I'm not taking enough damage to warrant SoI right now.

Yeah whenever i was with my hunter partner he always got focued. His gear was meh so he was way to squishy. I've now been doing 2s with a affliction lock and disc priest. Mostly with the lock, alot of our matches have people splitting between us oddly enough.

Generally I find myself under fire more often than not though. Guess the people i run into hate prot paladins.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.