On 12/03/2014 One Day Hero wrote:>On 12/03/2014 Wendy wrote:>>>I reckon the routes at LT are ok for what they are. The rock is good,>>the lines are separate.>>Once you're ok with bolting incredibly easy sport routes up arbitrary>lines on mediocre rock, there's no end to where that stuff can go in. You>could put up 50 000 sport routes in the Gramps of that quality, all it>takes is for someone to come along with a drill and low enough standards.>Some of the arseclowns who are "learning to climb" at lower tribute will>eventually acquire a drill and a sense of entitlement.

How are they any more arbitrary than most sport routes? Somehow the half a dozen lines up the pocketed wall at Van Deiman's land are any less arbitrary? Or Upper Cut Lunch? And the rock is fine. It's not going anywhere. Standards of rock are much lower at the Sundeck, let alone the forementioned Dreamtime.

I agree that it's stupid to try and create easy sport routes for the sake of it and if people can't get up 18, they should really just learn trad and have a great time of quality easy routes. But I also don't think you could go and find 50000 easy sport routes to bolt in the gramps no matter how low your standards are. The easy stuff is either just too chossy and vegetated (lets face it, Joe would have developed it already otherwise:)) or quite obviously a trad line. TW is a non spectacular but perfectly reasonably little wall.>>>>Steve Monks>>was fine with the retro on Good fight.>>So what? That doesn't mean that everyone else has to be fine with it.>I don't know what it was like as a gear route, but it surely would have>been totally safe (and pretty interesting) with a maximum of one or two>retrobolts. Why was the default setting to sport bolt it?

Um, because the first ascentionist and the rebolter agreed it would be best that way? And it is. The gear was crap. And it's hardly grid bolted - I put 3 pieces (probably the only 3 decent pieces before the bolts went in) in on top of the bolts. And at least I've climbed the thing ... go and do one of those famed ignore all the bolts trad ascents of it so you can feel all warm and manly.

Amnesty (the>route) looks great as is. Are you going to be ok with it if that one gets>retroed as well?>
And who is talking about retroing Amnesty? Whose straw men are we talking about here? The gear on Amnesty is a lot better than the gear available in the good fight anyway.

>>>You really should go into Dreamtime if you want something to complain>>about.>>Been having problems with birds raiding your fruit trees? That straw man>you just built should help. Sounds like Dreamtime is fuching awful, and>I don't drive to Victoria to climb on utter shit so I'll never go there.>Maybe that'd be a good one for you to go and chop?

Dreamtime will fade into obscurity with road closures and my campaign to promote it as the biggest piece of choss in the southern gramps :)

On 5/03/2014 One Day Hero wrote:>>Bolting rock isn't a right, it's a negotiation and has been so since at>least the early 70's. The problem is that the negotiation has been a little>bit one sided for the last 20 years, so the current crop think they have>a right to bolt. They don't. If the bolts offend you, and you have a sound>reason as to why they should never have gone in, just chop them out (this>is how the negotiation process works, talking without action doesn't achieve>shit). I guarantee that if you leave them in, more will follow. Someone>with even lower standards will use the existing routes as a justification>for adding even more pathetic bolted lines.

Wendy, I tell you who does care. The people who call the grampians their home, the guides who have taken groups to the same area for 10 years trying their best to keep it clean and beautiful, the locals who want to show off the beauty of the grampians to their visiting friends and family.

Come on mate, these claims may sound unsubstantiated to you but how about giving someone the benefit of the doubt. You seem to think the worst about climbers, people, this silent majority. I can tell you that I was at the Watchtower a day or two after these bolts went in at appox 8.30pm after work one day with 8 or so other locals. We had been going back most nights to train. It was above 35 mot days. Everyone who was their was disappointed to see the new bolts, the addition to jugular pulse and the pile of rocks in the eroding gully underneath the new route. It was fine the week before and now even uglier, The week before there was a discussion on beginning talks with the local businesses about how to fix some erosion and giving a few spots a break. I was there (as were many others) on the recent Vic range track care day, I've seen climbers at Bundaleer rubbing their tick marks away. I can tell you that people do care, and do act.

Climbers do care, maybe not all of them but the climbers i know, who live and work in the grampians care about their home. Not just for them as climbers but for their neighbours who walk, work, bird watch, cycle in their home.

Yes the watch tower is scrappier than the beautiful Taipan, Muline, Gallery, Eureka, Bundaleer. The watchtower is also a haven for the two months of 35 plus degree days over summer, a place to take your non-climbing friends to show them how great it is the activity you pursue. It may be scrappy to you, but for many others it is an enjoyable place.

I personally take offence to some of your views and your prejudice attitude toward climbers. Do you care about the environment? Do you drive around gates, do you make short cuts, do you leave your rubbish behind. I'm guessing not. So have some faith in others. Your naysaying attitude is not needed. This discussion began with someones view of an issue and his plan to ammend it. An action on behalf of a larger group who use the area and the park weekly and daily.

I mean no offence to you personally i am sure your a great person but on issues that are obviously important to other people what is the point of weighing in with this negative view.

On 13/04/2014 rhysd85 wrote:>I was at the Watchtower a day or two after these bolts went in at appox 8.30pm after work one day with 8 or so other locals. We had been going back most nights to train. It was above 35 mot days. Everyone who was their was disappointed to see the new bolts, the addition to jugular pulse and the pile of rocks in the eroding gully underneath the new route. It was fine the week before and now even uglier,

Are you going to do anything about the bolting-creep?
The post before yours summed it up, otherwise you had better get used to being disappointed.

Wow, in a thread involving Damo, I am the one causing offence. I'm going to having to get onto this trolling bandwagon.

Rhys, I have been climbing for 25 yrs. I have climbing all over the australia and around the world. I am out on the rock 3-4 times a week. I live just around the corner from the gramps and I have spent about 15 of those years guiding around here and the blue mtns. I'm not just randomly bashing people. I pick up rubbish at the crag all the time. I cringe at people's poo all the time (my good deeds draw the line at poo collection). I see tracks where people drive off the roads all the time because they are slack or maybe just stupid. Someone was having a picnic under the northern group the other day. They'd just randomly driven 50m off the road and set up. It's quite well defined where people seem to struggle to walk an extra 50m to dec crag. There's a track around the gate into dreamtime. There was one around the one on red rocks rd. Despite emu foot track being closed, I people seem to be going to weirs creek and I'll hazard a guess they aren't walking all that way. And getting into the ravine. climbing at summerday since this year's fire. This forum is full of people saying have they have ignored or will ignore closures. People still collect firewood at the mt and make up new fire pits.

I haven't been to a track work day since I did my shoulder, but I doubt they have suddenly become a gazillion times more popular. PV collect fees for about 100000 visitor nights at the mt each year. about 20 people turn up to a track maintainance day a couple of times a year. And they are frequently the same people who give their time and energy each time. It's very nice that you went to a track work day, but that doesn't change my observation that the vast majority of climbers don't. Maybe they are all nicely donating financially instead of physically, but I haven't heard of friends of arapiles being overwhelmed by donations either.

So 8 of you went to the crag and were horrified at this route. But you notice an increasing amount of erosion around it so obviously, it's popular and lot more than 8 people are climbing it. Several people on this thread have also said they enjoyed the route or thought it was reasonable. The things that concern you about it must really not be concerning others. And this wasn't started by someone's concern about an area and plans to amend it. It was actually someone asking about the routes. Maybe he actually wanted to climb them? You can be happy and positive about the "silent majority" all you like but I am going to go with the weight of evidence in front of me and say climbers really need to pull their socks up. In case you hadn't noticed, that was what I was actually saying in that post.

Most climbers do not live and work in Grampians (or other rural climbing areas). They have full time jobs in cities, with families and other responsibilities and when they go climbing, they have to travel and get in as much as possible into a limited amount of time and energy. They are therefore rather focused on just getting some climbing done. Cheers to the people who still manage to balance caring for the crag with that, but lots of people just self centered and unthinking. And yes, there are lots of problems with other users of bush areas as well, road sides, car parks, camping and picnic areas demonstrate that.

I'm glad you like the crag and all, but I think it's scrappy and the govt assures me I have a right to be a crag bigot :)