(09-01-2013 03:23 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote: You're probably the most open-minded journey-driven Atheist I have met.
Not totally sure though since you've only but 5 posts so far.

You confuse 'open-minded' with 'undecided'.
I have searched and researched for more years than you've been on this earth and have reached the conclusion that a theistic god is not possible. A deistic creator of the universe is not ruled out.

My search was open-minded. For me, the question of a theistic god is quite settled.

Have you read Stenger's GOD: The Failed Hypothesis?

I have always been refering to the possibility of a deistic god. I can't imagine a scenario where a theistic god makes sense, at least not as a part of this reality. Its far too late for that possibility to be entertained by me again. I was a christian in the past.

Exactly, it just is. As far as I can tell, the Universe, just is - it's neither perfect nor imperfect - until there are agents with minds capable of being altered by occurrences that seem unpleasant. So far, it looks like perfection (in regards to the Universe) is a relative matter.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

"The problem with faith is that it really is a conversation stopper. Faith is a declaration of immunity to the powers of conversation. It is a reason why you do not have to give reasons for what you believe." - Sam Harris

(09-01-2013 03:42 PM)Impulse Wrote: I'd like to think I'm not completely closed-minded so I probably do have a threshold, as you put it, but a universe full of life wouldn't do it for me. That would just be the natural progression of growth. In all likelihood, it would take something undeniable for me that would make me know there's a god rather than being suspicious.

Well then there is your threshold. I think most people have them. Have you thought about what it would take? I know this is something that theists often ask to try and trick atheists with word games etc. I'll say it clearly again since i'm new here. I am atheist and I am not tricking you or trolling. But I am curious as to what would convince you. It would have to be something that you could not possibly write off with some far reaching natural explanation. I find that sort of proof difficult to imagine. Putting my skepticism to the test like this, I believe, makes it much stronger, and its fun.

I honestly don't know, but certainly anyone or anything powerful enough to create the universe and smart enough to make it at least somewhat ordered could find countless ways to convince me such that I could not deny it.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair

(09-01-2013 03:48 PM)Impulse Wrote: I agree with Chas, the absence of pain and suffering would be mandatory.

But how about even just a perfect Earth? We could really do without all the hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, mud slides, volcanic eruptions, floods, disease, and droughts.

Right, that would definitely be nice. But agents of feeling, thoughts and emotions are required for there to even be the prospect of pain and suffering, as far as I can tell.

If those agents weren't around, it seems like everything would be fine.

Agents? You mean like nerve endings, pain receptors, and a brain?
One could still have those and, if there were no causes of pain and suffering, one would still not experience pain or suffering. Although, if there was no suffering, pain would be useless and therefore pain receptors would be as well.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair

"The problem with faith is that it really is a conversation stopper. Faith is a declaration of immunity to the powers of conversation. It is a reason why you do not have to give reasons for what you believe." - Sam Harris

(09-01-2013 03:50 PM)Impulse Wrote: So you can't have living organisms without also having pain and suffering?

And your definition of "perfect" is what?

The only thing that definition hinges on is things like us.
Perhaps perfection is subjective. If it's subjective, then you can't really posit anything on the creator since it's only us that is defining perfect.

What I brought up is imperfection which is much easier to recognize than perfection. I can't be certain that I'm capable of knowing or understanding true perfection since I have never experienced it. I certainly can't define it. Honestly, I don't believe perfection exists anywhere so maybe it's nothing more than an abstract concept that we will never be able to define. In any event, my belief in its nonexistence is yet another reason for me to disbelieve theism.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair

I'm not much of a book reader. I'm more of a chatter/forum poster/reader guy thingy.
Me reading a book consists of large year-long intervals of just in and out reading and laziness.

If you are not reading the books of the leading thinkers, you are not doing a very thorough search.
Thrashing around in forums and watching the occasional video is no substitute for the full exploration of ideas that a book provides.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

(09-01-2013 01:49 PM)Impulse Wrote: In my mind, the universe is too enormous, complex, and imperfect to have been created by any god or gods; theistic, deistic, or otherwise.

I find that to be even more interesting actually. I think my head is just spinning because I love life and the universe. I am absolutely shocked and stunned to find myself here. Sometimes I am just like, WTF? Why, how the....who....speachless.

I assume the "WTF? why, how the....who..." feeling is the basis for most religious beliefs.

I use to have some strange ideas about a deistic god, and a realm outside of this one where we would go when we die. I think it was a bit of a transition between Christianity and Atheism. I understood why Christianity was complete nonsense, but the idea of an after life or a deeper purpose still hid inside me. The moment that goes away is the moment an individual decides to base what they believe in evidence instead of wishful thinking. There is no reason to believe there is a god or an afterlife, so I will live my life accordingly.

I have to admit, I still feel the faint yearning for a belief in an afterlife. I guess that's what happens when someone grows up under the assumption there is a god. Although that period of crazy afterlife theories was not that long ago, hopefully the fleeting yearning for a belief in an afterlife will subside completely.