Doubles Pokemon Comparison (Round 1)

In doubles, nearly every Pokemon has an effective niche. However, some Pokemon's roles and niches vary only slightly when comparing them. Naturally, this can create a challenge when teambuildling to decide which Pokemon is the best fit for your team. Doubles Pokemon comparison aims to alleviate this issue!

Every round, which is an arbitrary time period, I will decide upon Pokemon we will compare. During the period of discussion, we will discuss which Pokemon is better through its niche and what teams it fits on. In the discussion, we should illustrate why a Pokemon fits in on certain teams more than others through its niche. In the beginning, we will use a simple comparison with a small amount of options. Depending on how well the discussion goes, I will expand the amount of options to be more complex accordingly.

Hitmontop's classic combo of Intimidate+Fake Out made it a staple on the VGC scene. The ability to lower the opponent's attack passively and neuter one of their Pokemon for 1 turn has enormous utility. This continues into Smogon Doubles, but we have a new kid gangster on the block that competes for the same role: Scrafty. Scrafty can pull off the same Intimidate+Fake Out combo that Hitmontop can, but with plenty of more bulk on both spectrums. In addition, it has an additional Dark-STAB that it can use to dent the bulky Psychics that roam the tier such as Creeselia. However, Hitmontop is not without its advantages. Scraty's Dark-type also acts as a curse because it makes it susceptible to opposing Fighting-types like Terrakion, Hitmontop, and Scrafty. Hitmontop is also more powerful. While it's base attack is only 5 more than Scrafty's, it can use Close Combat to lay the pain on the opponent, while Scrafty is stuck with Drain Punch (no one would risk Hi Jump Kick in a game with so many Protects). Hitmontop also has a much better movepool than Scrafty, especially in the support department. Mach Punch or Sucker Punch can act as additional priority options for a team. Hitmontop has a support movepool that Scrafty could only dream of. It has the mouth-watering Wide Guard to protect from spread moves, Helping Hand to augment the power of your own spread moves, and even Role Play to reactivate weather.

Moderator

I feel that Scrafty is an underrated threat, with many people jumping to choose Hitmontop will little thought over Scrafty. I will try not to repeat anything in the OP.

Perks of Scrafty
Scrafty possesses a better stat spread. Its greater bulk overweighs its lower Speed stat. It can invest 96 Spe EVs to gain the same Speed stat as Hitmontop, and even if these EVs are taken from HP, Scrafty still has a higher HP stat than Hitmontop. So Scrafty can be both more bulky and faster than the standard 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Hitmontop should it wish to. Of course, Hitmontop can invest more EVs in Speed should it wish to outspeed 252 Spe Scrafty, but it's not worth it. The lower Spe may also come in handy when using a TR team. And as you said, the Attack difference is negligible.

Hitmontop does possess a much better support movepool, with some options even missing from the OP like Feint. Scrafty, however, has better offensive coverage options should you ever want a Fake Out + 3 attacks set. It has access to the elemental punches (Ice Punch is especially good, as it hits so many Pokemon super-effectively, both 2x and 4x), Head Smash, Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Dragon Tail (good for preventing TR from going up), and Super Fang (could be used on a fully defensive set). Note that Hitmontop has Rock Slide and Stone Edge too, as well as Sucker Punch for priority. However, Scrafty's Crunch is much better for dealing with Psychic- and Ghost-types than Sucker Punch. Most Psychic- and Ghost-types are generally bulky mons that use support moves, like Cresselia. The most common exceptions are Metagross, who doesn't fear Sucker Punch, and Latios, but Sucker Punch doesn't deter Latios from using Substitute or Tailwind. Mind you, Close Combat + Sucker Punch + Stone Edge / Rock Slide still provides great coverage.

Whilst Scrafty is weak to Fighting-type attacks, its immunity to Psychic-type attacks is very helpful when Psychic types are so common. And Intimidate aids Scrafty overcome its Fighting-type weakness; Intimidate only helps Hitmontop's Psychic type weakness against the rare physical Psychic type attack that isn't coming from Metagross.

Perks of Hitmontop
In my opinion, the key advantage that Hitmontop has over Scrafty is Close Combat. It is significantly stronger than Scrafty's Drain Punch, and can net many more key KOs than Scrafty's Drain Punch. For example, assuming both attacks have a Fighting Gem, Top's CC will always OHKO Chople Berry 252 HP / 0 Def Ttar, whilst Scrafty's will never do so. Gem Top's CC even has a chance to OHKO 252 HP Politoed. Top may 2HKO 252 HP Metagross (not guaranteed) but Scrafty can't. Without the Gem, Top can still OHKO Terrakion, but Scrafty can't. The defensive drops are easily neglected with a switch (which, by the way, is strongly encouraged with both Pokemon to reset Intimidate and Fake Out).

Technitop can also be used should the user wish, which generally has more reason for use over Intimidate than Moxie or Shed Skin. Intimidate is still generally better than Technician, but the boost to Mach Punch can't be ignored. It, coupled with LO or Gem, enables you to outspeed and OHKO Pokemon simultaneously that you wouldn't otherwise be able to outspeed, whilst they could hit you hard before you attack, such as Excadrill and Terrakion (you need a Gem to OHKO Terrakion). Even when not aiming to KO specific Pokemon, the power boost is always nice. Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and Wide Guard are good reasons to use Top over Breloom, amongst others. Tech also lets you use a strong Aerial Ace if you really want to cover Grass-types on rain teams or to hit the many Fighting-types super-effectively.

On the whole, I would say Top > Scrafty, primarily because of CC and better support movepool. However, I will end by repeating what I said in my 1st line that Scrafty is underrated. It should see more usage than what it currently has.

Interesting points Darkmalice! I've never thought about Dragon Tail as an anti-trick room move. It seems very handy, seeing as how it is untauntable, affects all types, and can bring the opponents Pokemon out unexpectedly. If you're lucky enough that your opponent brings in a Pokemon weak to one or two of yours, you can buy a free turn with it as well!

After extensively trying out the two, I can safely say that I prefer Hitmontop. The added bulk Scrafty does have is noticeable, but man-o-man is it weak. The more immediate power of Close Combat, especially one with Fighting Gem, has always been able to achieve a KO or at least facilitate a KO for a partner in a match. Hitmontop can do some real damage to the opponent, while normally I find Scrafty sitting doing nothing after the initial Fake Out. Again, Hitmontop prevents "just sitting there" after CC by providing handy Wide Guard support. The extra priority Hitmontop has usually been a non-factor for me.

The 2 Special Attacking Dragons of the metagame, both powerful, and one a bit faster, while the other has a bit more attack, and thus a better Mixed set. Both are incredibly deadly, and have plenty of tricks up their sleeves (arms?). Let the discussion commence! Please discuss the pros, cons, strengths, weaknesses, movepools (and their differences), suitable sets, etc.

Anyway, even though Latios has a higher base special attack stat, in practice Hydreigon is much stronger because it runs a modest nature. With a modest nature I am pretty sure Hydreigon hits a 383 special attack stat with full investment while Latios, which normally runs a timid nature, hits a 359 special attack stat with full investment. Hydreigon's power is amplified by his access to great coverage and his additional Dark-STAB. The #1 bulky Pokemon of the tier, Cresselia, crumbles to Hydreigon's Dark Pulse. Any team that relies on Creaselia for support, which is many, faces constant disruption from Hydreigon. Dark pulse is also extremely handy since many Pokemon that set up Trick Room (Psychic and Ghost types) are hit extremely hard by it.

Hydreigon has usurped Latios' place on most of my teams because most of the time I have found the speed difference "manageable" to deal with. Unlike Singles, Doubles has many VIABLE ways to overcome the speed differences among Pokemon. Icy Wind, Tailwind, and Paralysis all are much better and easier to use in Doubles than in Singles. So with just a small amount of support from any of these options, Hydreigon's speed issues against stuff like Terrakion can be alleviated.

Overall, I would say that Hydreigon is better than Latios. However if you find that your team needs that immediate speed Latios is definitely better. In addition one cool perk Latios has is Psych Up, which let's it constantly reset the SpA falls of Draco Meteor (it can reset them even through protect!).

This is a very interesting comparison, since the 2 dragons are both known for well... spamming Draco Meteors and switching out. The thing is, one may fit some teams, whilst the other will fill others better. I'll start with pros and cons of Latios.

Looking at overall stat comparisons, we can see that Latios has

Less HP (-)

Less Atk (-)

Less Def (-)

More SpA (+)

More SpD (+)

More Spe (+)

Same BST (=)

and that Hydreigon obviously has the opposite of the above.

Overall, this means that Latios fits hardhitting, fastpaced hit and run teams, whilst Hydreigon maybe fits a bit more of a balanced goodstuff team (ofc each could fit on the other type of team if need be).

Dragon Gem boosted Draco Meteor is something that people EV pokes to barely survive. That is how threatening it is. Think about it like Specs Latios in OU; nothing really switches in to it very well. In doubles, Protect is one of the very best moves, and with it being a very fast paced tier, you usually don't fire off much more than one or two Draco Meteor, usually making Dragon Gem better than Specs. Draco Meteor is it's main attacking move, as it will destroy almost anything that doesn't resist it.

This is the main set Hydreigon likes to use in doubles. Dark Pulse is the main reason you would use it over Latios, since it does over 50 percent to just about every single Trick Room setter there is, even OHKOing some with Life Orb. The choice between Flamethrower, Surf, Earth Power and Focus Blast is dependant on what your team structure is. If you have a Gastrodon and a Jellicent on your team, Surf is probably the better option, since it provides spread damage whilst boosting / healing your teammates. Earth Power, Focus Blast and Flamethrower are used for hitting Steel types like.

Conclusion

The main walls to Latios are bulky Steel, Ghost, and Psychic types like Cresselia, Metagross and Dusclops. Sucker Punch is a pain too, but all of these things are dealt with pretty well with if you are using a Hydreigon. This would be the main reason to use Hydreigon over Latios, as the usual Steel Type "counters" are hit much harder by a Life Orb boosted Earth Power / Flamethrower than a non-boosted HP fire from Latios.

The main reason you would use Latios over Hydreigon would almost always be because of it's speed. The speed tier that it lives in allows it to outpace major threats like Genesect, Terrakion and every single pokemon with base 100 speed - something that Hydreigon fails to do. This allows it to become more of a "Hit fast and hard, then run". That is also why Dragon Gem is usually preffered over Life Orb. Another useful niche it has over Hydreigon is it's ability to tank Fighting moves from the likes of Hitmontop, Scrafty, Breloom etc, something that Hydreigon most definately cannot do.

Hitmontop has a Slightly higher Attack Stat than Scrafty, as well as better speed. The latter doesn't matter much as Hitmontop mainly uses Priority moves. Meanwhile Scrafty has much better bulk and still hits very hard. Winner: Scrafty

Typing:
Scrafty does have the incredible STABs of Dark/Fighting, but this also gives it a weakness to common Fighting moves, as well as Neutralities to Bug. Hitmontop doesn't mind the mono typing, and it does benefit it more. Winner: Hitmontop

Movepool:
Hitmontop has a great Priority Movepool of Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and Mach Punch, as Well as Close Combat. Scrafty does get Fake out, but having to rely on Hi Jump Kick or Drain Punch as a STAB leaves Hitmontop as better. Winner: Hitmomtop

Ability:
Scrafty is actually much more versatile here. While both usually run Intimidate, Hitmontop rarely runs Technichian, while Scafty has Moxie to get boosts, and Shed Skin to have an almost immunity to Status. Winner: Scrafty

Overall Winner: Scrafty
I find Scrafty to be the better Pokemon due to its better versatility and STABs.

Hitmontop has a Slightly higher Attack Stat than Scrafty, as well as better speed. The latter doesn't matter much as Hitmontop mainly uses Priority moves. Meanwhile Scrafty has much better bulk and still hits very hard. Winner: Scrafty

Typing:
Scrafty does have the incredible STABs of Dark/Fighting, but this also gives it a weakness to common Fighting moves, as well as Neutralities to Bug. Hitmontop doesn't mind the mono typing, and it does benefit it more. Winner: Hitmontop

Movepool:
Hitmontop has a great Priority Movepool of Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and Mach Punch, as Well as Close Combat. Scrafty does get Fake out, but having to rely on Hi Jump Kick or Drain Punch as a STAB leaves Hitmontop as better. Winner: Hitmomtop

Ability:
Scrafty is actually much more versatile here. While both usually run Intimidate, Hitmontop rarely runs Technichian, while Scafty has Moxie to get boosts, and Shed Skin to have an almost immunity to Status. Winner: Scrafty

Overall Winner: Scrafty
I find Scrafty to be the better Pokemon due to its better versatility and STABs.

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I'd like to point out the vast Movepool differences between the two that you missed, like Hitmontops fucking array of support moves, and access to Feint.

Laga and DoughBoy have pretty much covered everything for the two Dragons, but as a additional note, I'd like to add in Hydreigon's Heat Wave access, which is a nice perk over Latios. Another thing to point out is that Latios gets Energy Ball while Hydreigon doesn't. While this is generally an inferior move, on a Rain team having trouble with common Rain counters like Gastrodon and Rotom-Wash, it can be a useful move to have.

Overall, I would judge Hydreigon gets the upper hand due to a useful Dark STAB and more powerful move options against Steel types such as Metagross, but both are very strong options for any team.

The 2 most predominant Swift Swim Abusers in Double take the stage! Usually seen as Special Attackers, both of these mons have a few other roles they can take, but their most useful sets seem to be super fast Special Rain Abusers. What do you think? Let the discussion commence! Please discuss the pros, cons, strengths, weaknesses, movepools (and their differences), suitable sets, etc.

Ludicolo stands out with longevity due to Giga Drain and Leech Seed as well as beig able to run Rain Dish. Kingdra is better at blowing open holes with Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor having almost perfect coverage and it doesn't have to aim at Ferrothorn who loves the sight of either of these two.
Ludicolo also has the advantage of loving Gastrodon and Jellicent where Kingdra is somewhat bothered by them. Kingdra has a much safer speed stat and could even go mixed or physical if it wants. Kingdra also gets a 4x fire resistance rather than a neutrality and no bug, poison or flying weakness in exchange for a crucial dragon weakness and no ground resistance.
If you want to make it simple it is basically Draco Meteor vs Giga Drain. Sure there are lots of differences, but that's really the main thing.

When looking at these two, there are a lot of differences. First off, Kingdra has the greater STAB coverage, with Ferrothorn being one of the few pokemon who can resist both. Ludicolo's STAB coverage is resisted by Dragon type alone, giving Kingdra the advantage. Kingdra also wins in that he is the faster of the two, though in most cases this won't matter. Kingdra also has Muddy Water access, allowing it to deal massive damage to both foes simultaneously while not harming its ally. Kingdra also has a unique option in Disable, which can help its allies against threatening attacks. So where does Ludicolo get the advantage? First off is Fake Out support, which allows Ludicolo to stop the opponent in its tracks. Ludicolo, factoring in Swift Swim, is also the fastest pokemon with Fake Out, which can come in handy when facing foes such as Hitmontop. Ludicolo also has Teeter Dance, an interesting option that can completely ruin the opponent with a bit of luck. The real advantage to Ludicolo, however, is its Grass STAB. Common Rain counters, like Gastrodon and Rotom-Wash, completely despise Grass attacks. As such, Ludicolo's STAB allows it to take out threats that Rain teams would absolutely despise without it. So when it comes down to choosing, its usually whether you want a really powerful sweeper with great STAB coverage, or a solid sweeper with the ability to overcome common obstacles for Rain. Its easy to see why this is often a hard decision.

~Conclusion~
Overall, I would judge Kingdra as the better, due to the fact that Rain counters are not always going to be on the opponent's team. However, should you be in need of a more supportive Swift Swimmer, or a Swift Swimmer that can get past Bulky Gastrodon & friends without much trouble, Ludicolo is certainly a great option.

Defensive capabilities: With only one resistance, Kingdra's typing is great defensively, particularly since he will outspeed and destroy the dragons that look to hit him with super-effective STAB. However, besides water it doesn't come with too many useful resistances either. Ludicolo's weaknesses are not the most common attacking types: he will have to be wary of hurricane users but gets a nice earthquake resist in return. In all honesty, though, as these are attacking threats this is a lesser consideration. Ludicolo probably edges it because of the healing he gets from giga drain.

Attacking coverage: Offensively, with just water STAB and draco meteor Kingdra is walled only by Ferrothorn and the pink blobs (and Shedinja), whereas Ludicolo's coverage is lacking if it forgoes ice beam. That is gets such great coverage in two moves mean it is really versatile with its final moveslot, not limited to icy wind, rain dance and your choice of hidden power. Ludicolo needs three moves to achieve the same coverage: surf, giga drain and ice beam, and so suffers from 4MSS since it wants to run fake out and protect too. However, Ludicolo's grass typing makes it beat many other rain exploiters, taking down threats such as Gastrodon, Rotom-W and Manaphy that can become a real pain. But in general, Kingdra has more raw power.

Ability against other weather: Neither pokemon really benefits from any other weather in any way, although Kindgra's double resist of fire comes in useful against sun, and Ludicolo resists both of Excadrill's STABs, a small bonus against sand. Ludicolo's fake out can still buy a turn while you try to reactivate rain.

Other options: Kingdra's last moveslot can run loads of stuff, but as for entirely different sets, the only conceivable option is a physical/mixed set with outrage and dragon dance. Once it gets to +1 speed, it can start killing dragons even outside rain... as long as outrage selects the correct opponent. Ludicolo a few more options, it can even run focus blast to do some (still quite miserable) damage to Ferrothorn. Ludicolo can also try a bulky leech seed/rain dish set, but Ferrothorn is probably better in this role.

Finally, why can't these guys be used on the same team? It seems that Ludicolo is a pokemon that can take out mons like Gastrodon and Manaphy that Kindgra struggles to get past and then Kingra can sweep through once its checks have been removed.

Yes these guys work well as Specially Based SwSw mons, but what about the sets you aren't thinking about? They've been touched on briefly, but how about Mixed Kingdra, Rain Dish Ludicolo, ChestoResto Kingdra, Absorb Bulb sets, etc?

For the most part, most of these sets are rare/outclassed. Absorb Bulb is occasionally used on the all-out Rain teams, which in general have both of these Swift Swimmers on them. Mixed Kingdra doesn't really have any advantages, since it will have to give up either Draco Meteor, Muddy Water, or Sub, and Outrage doesn't work well in Doubles. Rain Dish Ludicolo is a thing I have seen, and it is viable, generally running something like Giga Drain/Scald, Leech Seed, Protect, and Sub. It is a nice niche that Ludicolo gets. ChestoResto is possible I suppose, but unless you give up power/speed investment, Kingdra is pretty frail. On a similar note, ChestoResto Ludicolo was an anti-Rain set I used to lots of success on one of my VGC Sand teams awhile back, and though I have never tested it in Smogon Doubles, it would be useful on weatherless teams/sand teams as a solid Rain counter. Here is the set I used:
Ludicolo @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD (For VGC I had a more complex Level 50 spread, but overall it was Specially Defensive)
Calm Nature
- Scald/Sunny Day
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam/Icy Wind
- Rest
Sunny Day is generally used on weatherless Goodstuff teams, as Ludicolo's unique typing allows it to give problems to both Rain and Sand, something not very many pokemon can do simultaneously. Giga Drain is the main move, hitting Sand and Rain hard while giving Ludicolo more durability. Icy Wind can be used over Ice Beam if you need more speed control, though I usually run Cresselia for that type of thing. Rest + Chesto Berry lets you come back again later in the battle, which is especially devastating for Rain teams. Ludicolo's uncommon weaknesses allow it to tank hits better than Kingdra (in general). This set capitalizes on Ludicolo's ability to counter Rain, not simply abuse it.

Except Cress trumps the hell out of DeoD? except as a Hazard setter, which is meh in doubles...

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No sir. Deoxys-D has a much bigger movepool than Cresselia does. Almost every option that Cresselia has Deoxys-D also has outside of Helping hand I think (which is pretty big). Over Cresselia, Deoxys-D has TAUNT, Recover, Role Play, Snatch, CounterCoat, Knock Off, Torment, and (lol?) Ally Switch (I know the last one sounds like a gimmick but considering how tanky Deoxys-d I would consider it a good user. Acts as a double protect.)