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Author
Topic: The New(bies) Kids on the Block (Read 16070 times)

Of course, Andy, I will stop. There is no point discussing the subject any further! However, and this really fucks me up, do the suffering of all the people who left the site because of what they perceived as an attack by you know whom since you are a moderator, and especially during some days when they were feeling miserable and crapy, count? Will they ever be able to return to this site looking primarily for what the site is all about i.e. confort, support and answers? Or, as I am inclined to believe, will this whole charade go on and on; and people will still suffer and leave?

Isn't the stigma, discrimination and the pain that living with HIV entails enough? Do we need all of this? Now, you can tell me to shut the fuck up and I will. But, this time, though, I will do exactly the same thing some of people who were hurt right here in these forums, have done! And to make it clear for you, Andy, I was not aware that people were being bullied and felt hopeless until some weeks ago. You, the moderators, were aware of what's going on!

Do we want the same thing to happen with the so-called "newbies"? Not me. By the way, I was not the one who coined the "newbie" term.

Val______P.S. That's my last post in this thread. I will hope only that the problem will be addressed and solved.

do the suffering of all the people who left the site because of what they perceived as an attack by you know whom since you are a moderator, and especially during some days when they were feeling miserable and crapy, count?

And to make it clear for you, Andy, I was not aware that people were being bullied and felt hopeless until some weeks ago. You, the moderators, were aware of what's going on!

Val

I'm a moderator and I haven't a clue what/who you're talking about. We get people threatening to leave all the time and most of the time they reappear within a week or so, if not days or even hours. If we got rid of everyone who has been guilty of one time or another hurting someone else's feeling, this place would be a ghost town. All we can really do, unless someone gets over the top horrible, is to ask that people treat each other in the way they expect to be treated. If you want courtesy, you need to show courtesy. Be the change you wish to see.

This newbie/oldbie stuff is nothing less than devisive. Can we give it a rest, please?

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

"Beware of the fortune teller doom and gloomers who seek to bring you down and are only looking for company, purpose and validation - not your best physical/mental interests."

"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards

Yes it can be disturbing for some members to see others doing stupid jokes and finding aids hilarious. I'm one of them dealing with the disease by laughing at it with the other members that deal with it the same way. I think my posts have been very clear that I won't make a completely stupid joke to someone that is obviously suffering and not in that state of mind. There is a mix of both in those forums; I'd be sad if we separate the jokers from the others. I'm proud to get PMs from people who said "man you made me laugh today, thank you".

It is threads like this that caused me to leave this forum, because too many people here forget that we are all bound by our HIV infection. This is not an issue about how long or well you live with HIV, it is about the fact that we all have a virus that will kill us if it gets the chance. It is about supporting a place where all reasonable views are valid, no matter how disconcerting some may find them to be.

Yes, I am a dinosaur, but I long for the Jurassic Period of HIV. Yes we were dropping like flies, but I saw more love and compassion, even in the face of abject hopelessness, than I have seen displayed in these forums in a very long time. So many of you seem to concentrate on the delivery while you miss the message completely.

Of course I know the face of HIV today is different and I could not be happier, nor prouder because I contributed to that change. I know so much about HIV and the human experience in relation to it and that is what drew me to these forums many years ago, as somewhere to share our hopes and fears and to realize that while we may not always agree, there were never the vicious personal attacks that frequent these forums.

So many of you are so centered on telling others, why they are wrong, when you should be focusing on the experience they bring to the table. I want and need those for whom HIV is a manageable disease, because that is not the case for me and one can never have enough hope. I would hope that the existence of us long-term survivors would provide hope for those newly infected and I thought we were all in this together. But then I read a post like this, with all the "cliques" and other bullshit, it just is not worth it anymore.

Support used to mean that you listened as long as necessary to support those who came here for support. It used to mean that while the tempers may flare, the issue was always the focus of the topic and not attacks regarding the personal character of the poster. I am not taking sides, just telling you my take on the reality that has taken over these forums.

Sometimes I wonder if the HIV community will eventually segment into two factions, those for whom the meds work (and who have health insurance) and life is relatively easy and the second faction for those who don't fit in the first one. Rather than supporting our common bond, too many seek to just lash out at others and that will never serve to regain the "soul" that these forums used to contain.

For many of you, you have no idea what has been lost in these forums the past two years. You are allowing the "instant gratification" of these forums to numb you to the people behind the posts. You will never know the dozens of members who have left these forums, merely because their opinions were deemed as less than worthy.

Some of you also live a very good life and you have become numb to the reality of many people (not just Americans) who live with HIV daily, with little support from anywhere. You don't have to worry how your medical treatment nor drugs will be paid for, because you have insurance. You do not live at the whim of DC who could yank your safety net out from under you and has been doing just that for the past six years. Yet some of you seem so busy telling others to not "rain on your parade" that you totally miss the human misery that haunts these boards.

So many of you claim to know how being marginalized feels, so how is that so many still continue to marginalize the posters on these forums. I thought society already had marginalized us enough.

It is threads like this that caused me to leave this forum, because too many people here forget that we are all bound by our HIV infection. This is not an issue about how long or well you live with HIV, it is about the fact that we all have a virus that will kill us if it gets the chance. It is about supporting a place where all reasonable views are valid, no matter how disconcerting some may find them to be.

For many of you, you have no idea what has been lost in these forums the past two years. You are allowing the "instant gratification" of these forums to numb you to the people behind the posts. You will never know the dozens of members who have left these forums, merely because their opinions were deemed as less than worthy.

I couldn't agree more Joe. Toward the end of year, I came to the realization, that I was going to posting less. I think I am going to start living up to that. I am just too frustrated by some of the crap that's going on. There are many here that don't realize as you have stated, what these forums were like a couple years ago.

I still need this place, But I will use it for information, and to share some information, when I am comfortable at doing so, which seems to be a lot less lately.

Perhaps they should create a forum for the " HIV Veterans", where at least it can be kept real.

Support used to mean that you listened as long as necessary to support those who came here for support. It used to mean that while the tempers may flare, the issue was always the focus of the topic and not attacks regarding the personal character of the poster. I am not taking sides, just telling you my take on the reality that has taken over these forums.

Sometimes I wonder if the HIV community will eventually segment into two factions, those for whom the meds work (and who have health insurance) and life is relatively easy and the second faction for those who don't fit in the first one. Rather than supporting our common bond, too many seek to just lash out at others and that will never serve to regain the "soul" that these forums used to contain.

For many of you, you have no idea what has been lost in these forums the past two years. You are allowing the "instant gratification" of these forums to numb you to the people behind the posts. You will never know the dozens of members who have left these forums, merely because their opinions were deemed as less than worthy.

Joe

Your post was both a welcome thing to me and at the same time it produced a deep and real sense of sadness.

It was welcome because you took the time and made the effort to give these forums something thoughtful, heartfelt, and driven by a desire to bring the potential these forums should always strive for.

It was sad, because so many of your observations regarding the big picture of the transformation that has happened here, really hit home for me. I love all the new members, I welcome the additional insight and perspective, I hate the ego driven drama.

I don't know what the answer is. Or even if there is one.

I'm not typically a bitter person. As a long termer, I thrive on my good fortune, cause I know it could easily disappear tomorrow. But for today, while I'm feeling strong and healthy, I would rather invest my energy and time on giving support and understanding. But by the time I parse my words in an attempt to not become a target, consider the 2 or 3 various (obvious) factions that have emerged, and still try to convey something helpful. . . well it just isn't possible most times. For me, and this is only my diluded opinion, the reality of the forums as they currently exists leave me worn out from dodging the landmines and walking on egg shells.

Most times it just isn't worth it anymore. (I think that is what Ray was kind of referring to)

Not sure what the point of all this is, just my momentary random thoughts.

I will say this, while we can't go back to what was, hopefully, we can collectively commit to doing better.

Thanks buddy for giving me the chance to vent (albeit not fully) on where my head has been.

I agree with Josh on that one: I always took the "I Just Tested Poz" forum to be for those in the immediate HOLY SHIT phase, not so much folks who have had the diagnosis for awhile. At what point does the "recent" / "newbie" / "just" expire? Just wondering. It may the last place this aging hen can grasp a "spring chicken" designation.

WOW! You know that's a question that makes a me stop and think for a long time! In the full scope of this aren't we all always going to be 'newbies'? After all, we are each at a 'new' place with the virus that we have never been before, at least in my opinion.

Two thumbs up and thanks for giving me/us something to ponder!

Peace health and love,Ody

Logged

Take a deep breath and forgive yourself, no since in you making it harder, that's someone else's job and you know they are more qualified, just ask um!

Maybe two years ago this website was a niche, I don't know. I welcome the new members, and remember that they are new members because they found out they are positive. It means different things, different feelings, for the newly infected.

I'm pretty new here, and I was very welcomed, and I really liked the diversity in here. You cannot expect a 20yo to understand all the experience of a 40 or 50yo, and you cannot expect a 50 yo to understand what it means to be a 20yo in 2007. I'm lucky enough to have real friends who span from 17yo to 83yo. I'm in the middle right now and I love it. I wouldn't stay in this forum if it was not for people like bear and moffie as well as aupoint and al and everything in between.

For people that get "offended", "hurt", or "leave the forum" because of advice or comments from other members i think everyone needs to realize not to take everything that everyone says so seriously.... If you put 100 different people in a room together you are bound to have some that you bond closely with and others that you cant stand....This is what happens because we come from different places, different backgrounds, and different upbringings....Advice that works for me may not work for someone else....while someone might find me comforting, others will find me annoying....

This is to be expected and we should just understand and accept that EVERYONE on this forum is different and we all have diffrent ways of coping with life in general.....so "cliques" are to be expected as some people think similar and others we just dont get..... This is why the internet is a great tool and also why it can be a problem....it can either bring us together or make us feel more alone......We just need to understand we all come from different worlds and after reading posts and getting to know people we will also learn whos advice to take to heart and whos needs to be thrown out the window.....

Everyone has a different opinion, different view, different life and everyone can bring valuable advice to the forum but we need to accept that we all are different and this difference is to be expected in such a diverse group.....

Anyone that posts here needs to understand this before taking anything to heart and feeling offended.....

im off to bed....:-D

-josh(who thinks maybe nobody should pay attention to this message because he is a bit drunk and doesnt even know why he is online....damn bad habbit)

Just a little word of confort for both of you, and since your posts and friendly attitudes inspired me throughout this week, I wanted to send you a little something for the week end in beautiful California. And even though I know that you're gonna kill me for this, I don't really care, and here goes, then!

Funny how you can't distinguish between two simple words in your language: "Clique" and "Solidarity". Sorry, the word "clique" actually is French and I understand that it might not be well-understood by yourself. However, to show support and undestanding for someone is not the same as to form a clique! The word clique, in French, usually has a negative meaning regardless of who its members are. It means..."un groupe d'individus peu recommandables " (péjoratif)To show support and solidarity to someone, on the the other hand, is an almost-but-not-quite compendium of understanding, caring, unanimity, trustworthiness, concern and esprit de corps camaraderie. You see, the list could go on and on and on!

Funny how you can't distinguish between two simple words in your language: "Clique" and "Solidarity". Sorry, the word "clique" actually is French and I understand that it might not be well-understood by yourself.

gee, thanks for calling me stupid.

Why are 'older members' considered a cllique when a 'newer' specific group of members, fitting the same criteria as seemingly applied to the older ones is called solidarity.

Some of us have made friends, that we associate with on the forums, phone, emails, IM, PM and or visits. If that is a clique, then I'll be damned if I don't belong to one the largest ones here on the forums. I’m proud of the friendships I’ve made. There is nothing special anyone has to do in making friends.

lol i dont know what cique im in actually im still fairly new here and just recently began posting....i just say what i feel :-D....many member seem to have similar attitudes and similar mindsets which is what makes it seem like a "clique" but in many cases the two that always agree and defend each other actually "get" each other and have similar traits but every once in a while you will still see them clash (as everyone does in the real wold)

-josh(who hopes to be a social butterfly and get along with everyone as he always has without "trying" to get along with everyone lol )

Funny how you can't distinguish between two simple words in your language: "Clique" and "Solidarity". Sorry, the word "clique" actually is French and I understand that it might not be well-understood by yourself. However, to show support and undestanding for someone is not the same as to form a clique! The word clique, in French, usually has a negative meaning regardless of who its members are. It means..."un groupe d'individus peu recommandables " (péjoratif)To show support and solidarity to someone, on the the other hand, is an almost-but-not-quite compendium of understanding, caring, unanimity, trustworthiness, concern and esprit de corps camaraderie. You see, the list could go on and on and on!

Val______

Edited to add the two words: clique and solidarity

Val,

I'm French and know what a "clique" means in French, but I'm not sure your explanation made any sense to non-french speaking crowds. A clique could be translated in english as being in a group that thinks is over all because of their beliefs. A clique is merely a group that thinks they are better than everyone that don't believe in their specific issue.

Thanks for the explanation, hon! So, have you reached any conclusion about "that" subject discussed to such lengths in your "I've been naughty" thread? Note that I prefer "naughty" to "bad"!Hope everything will be alright with you and whenever you feel the need to chat, PM me on!

Thanks for the explanation, hon! So, have you reached any conclusion about "that" subject discussed to such lengths in your "I've been naughty" thread? Note that I prefer "naughty" to "bad"!Hope everything will be alright with you and whenever you feel the need to chat, PM me on!

Love,Val______

Val, for reasons known only to you and your friends, you have attempted to destroy this forum with your diviseveness, your antagonism, and your personal attacks. To date, the only "clique" I have seen are the people who, despite their valid and honest viral concerns, are still behaving like internet trolls. And while I shudder at the thought of banning members who actually ARE HIV positive (as opposed to, say, denialists and religious nutjobs) I would rather see that happen than have this place degenerate into the chaos that, bewilderingly, you seem to want.

This has gone far beyond a personal thing you have with Moffie. It's basically become you and your small cabal versus this entire forum. I doubt seriously this fact is lost on the moderators. And it has nothing to do with favorites or cliques at this point. It's abuse of a support forum for a serious illness. Plain and simple.

I will, no doubt, be on your hit list for saying this. But you know something? I'm ok with that.

These last few months you have proven to be an abusive, passive-aggressive and disruptive poster whose agenda, besides intimidating others, remains unclear. But I am onto you.

And seeing as how I am generally the last to know anything, I can only infer that this is neither news nor a shock to anyone else.

I am sorry you did not choose to join a community, rather to disrupt it with your friends. And I am frustrated that it has taken the moderators this long to take action against this sabotage. But I suspect that Poz.com will not take kindly to having their forum deccimated by mean-spirited and vindictive posters, regardless of HIV status. At the end of the day, the bottom line, their advertising dollars, might actually help to create a safe place here, where there used to be one.

It is, after all, in their best interests. Of course, it is in yours as well. Maybe someday you will see beyond your rage.

I hope you do.

Believe it or not, this is actually an olive branch, for you to take or leave.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

This has been an emotional roller coaster. My experience has been that email is not a good way to resolve conflict, so I imagine the same issues here. We are missing the face-to-face communication stuff.

Sometimes it is good to take a step back and look at the context as well as the players. There ARE dynamics of power at work here, as there are everywhere. There are also needs and experiences specific to where we are in this flight of life. And there are emotions and sensitivities. I am beginning to get a sense of different people and an understanding.

You sound very aggressive and angry, not me. I simply addressed a growing people here in the forums. Now, will we sit and wait until it degenerates any further? Or, as reasonably assumed by most folks who took the time to reply, is this a valid issue/point? All one has to do is look at all the replies -- especially by the so-called "newbies" -- to reach a conclusion.

I do not read blogs, but have been told that you are very sick. Is that not a reason for you to slow down and do everything with moderation? Why this outbreak of anger and aggression towards me? Again, I am simply addressing a problem that has been debated time and again in these forums, without any conclusive and satisfactory ending. Apparently the subject is not a worry for you. Which is fine!

You see, Jonathan, I am a very lucky fellow. I have all the money I could ever desire in my life, am happily married for more than 23 years, I live in a palace in paradise. However, I am far from being selfish. I will come to support any human being who is in distress. No matter what the price for me! I only come to these forums to help, give confort, help and solidarity. Are you able to say the same thing?

Wishing you a speedy recovery (I am sincere here!) and a calm, serene Saturday. I will not respond to your aggression with aggressions. Just do not exaggerate!

Val______P.S. I do defend all kinds of suffering in this world --- especially the whales. Why shouldn't I address a growing problem that was brought to me by several folks who, believe it or not, are suffering and /or have suffered immensely? I wouldn't be myself if I didn't take any action.

This has been an emotional roller coaster. My experience has been that email is not a good way to resolve conflict, so I imagine the same issues here. We are missing the face-to-face communication stuff.

Sometimes it is good to take a step back and look at the context as well as the players. There ARE dynamics of power at work here, as there are everywhere. There are also needs and experiences specific to where we are in this flight of life. And there are emotions and sensitivities. I am beginning to get a sense of different people and an understanding.

You sound very aggressive and angry, not me. I simply addressed a growing people here in the forums. Now, will we sit and wait until it degenerates any further? Or, as reasonably assumed by most folks who took the time to reply, is this a valid issue/point? All one has to do is look at all the replies -- especially by the so-called "newbies" -- to reach a conclusion.

I do not read blogs, but have been told that you are very sick. Is that not a reason for you to slow down and do everything with moderation? Why this outbreak of anger and aggression towards me? Again, I am simply addressing a problem that has been debated time and again in these forums, without any conclusive and satisfactory ending. Apparently the subject is not a worry for you. Which is fine!

You see, Jonathan, I am a very lucky fellow. I have all the money I could ever desire in my life, am happily married for more than 23 years, I live in a palace in paradise. However, I am far from being selfish. I will come to support any human being who is in distress. No matter what the price for me! I only come to these forums to help, give confort, help and solidarity. Are you able to say the same thing?

Wishing you a speedy recovery (I am sincere here!) and a calm, serene Saturday. I will not respond to your aggression with aggressions. Just do not exaggerate!

Val______P.S. I do defend all kinds of suffering in this world --- especially the whales. Why shouldn't I address a growing problem that was brought to me by several folks who, believe it or not, are suffering and /or have suffered immensely? I wouldn't be myself if I didn't take any action.

Val, I think you're a good man in your heart, but you don't seem to realize that you're upsetting people with some of your posts.

Now, to give Jonathan an impression of what is going on in these forums, I will post a thread that speaks for itself. In this thread, people come out and finally express themselves regardless of the fact that they were very much "afraid" of being criticized and ridiculed by persons like...Jonathan and the oterhs! They told me this on the phone, they PMed me, etc. At a certain point, I replied to some of them "online" that instead of sending me PMs, they should come out and speak their minds...

The thread started by Milker "The Naughty thread" as I call it, is a perfect example of things to come in these forums. Granted Milker is French and as such "il n'a pas froid aux yeux" i.e. speaks up/come clean and is bold more than other folks. And I love and admire him more than he'll ever know just for being himself! However, look at the ensuing situation... Even the so-called "newbies" disagreed with him! Now, not the all the newly-infected in these forums are French -- thank goodness for that! And not every newly-infected in these boards is as bold and unafraid! Should their voices be silenced? Never, ever did I imply that our voices, the "oldbies' voices (Yes, I am an "oldbie" whether you like it or not) advices and experiences did not serve a major purpose in these forums. Neither did any of the so-called "newbies"!

And Jonathan, your assumptions are nothing more than that: "assumptions". If in doubt, look at the replies one by one and see what the majority think! Usually the majority rulez...

And if this thread does not convince you the so-called "oldbies" that AIDS, for these "New Kids on the Block, " is not ONLY about death and depressive reminders, well, I indeed give up! I give up and will tell you at the same time that this topic will come up again somewhere. You'd better get used to them -- the so-called "newbies"! And "yes", I will thank Andy online for telling me that the "newbie" versus "oldbie" thing was a mistake. He is right, as usual, and I should have known better.

Edited to add Milker's "naughty" thread as an example of future posts.

Val, I think you're a good man in your heart, but you don't seem to realize that you're upsetting people with some of your posts.

Milker.

Milker, I believe that Val, at this juncture, knows precisely what he is doing. I wish I had your faith in humanity though. I don't. Val knows whom he upsets. He started this thread precisely to accomplish that. As with many threads, it was intended as a bitch-slap to a specific member, and devoid of any real altruism.

And sadly, this last exchange has been predictable. It really is going to come down to an either or. There is no room in this forum for non supportive and rageful posting AND a safe haven for those living with and affected by HIV.

I am heartened by the recent aggressive stance shown by the moderators. I hope it continues until this place welcomes discussion and disclosure, instead of punishing it with vitriol (even vitriol thinly guised as affection of help). LIke I said earlier, I am the last one to suspect devious intent. Therefore, it can not possibly have escaped the attention of others. For the longest time, I tried to play it off as a translation difficulty.

I am certain that this is not the case.

I do not regret reaching out. I regret that it met with such blase resistance and poorly considered verbiage.

Call me optimistic, but I do think that this forum will survive those who have seen fit to provide little beyond discord and rage. Sickeningly, often discord and rage disguised as humor or distraction or even assistance.

Sadder still, were we to put them on ignore, they would go unreported. And people reading these forums from the outside would assume that this behaviour is encouraged.

This forum, obviously, is not for everyone. Not even everyone with HIV. And I know that a person's viral status gives moderators great pause when considering disciplinary action. As it should. But there is no excuse for the pattern of sabotage and belittlement and passive-aggressive behavior here. Explanations? sure. From dementia to depression to drug/alcohol abuse to a host of other issues. Issues that warrant discussion.

But explanations do not suffice when the offending party wages war on the forum's credibility and integrity.

This is a support forum for HIV infected people. when it loses the capacity to help, to be a safe haven, it loses credibility. When it loses scientific accuracy, it loses credibility. When it allows cliques to control it outside the boundaries of it's stated mission, it loses credibility.

I really do feel badly for those whose lives are so forfeit of meaning that they need to hurt others in order to feel better about themselves. Particularly when their targets are the weak and the sick in a forum whose members are rife with that element.

Granted, it's easy pickings. And I am certainly not immune to flamebaiting. But I am still strong enough to write about it, from time to time. Still strong enough to defend weaker people, when I see them being victimized. Strong enough to believe in a concept that seems to have been a little lost as of late on these forums.

You wonder why people like Shawn and Lisa and Mark and Regan do not post here? When their blogs are so successful? Maybe it's because there is a real problem with the forums, and getting involved here is political suicide for those who actually want a lucrative relationship with POZ. Also, maybe their lives are rich enough, and full enough, so that this distraction is one more struggle they do not need to undertake.

I think I put that ship to sail a while back. I regret that. God/dess knows my financial situation regrets it. But I still think that sometimes you have to do the right thing, even though it hurts, even though it demands sacrifice. And defending this place seems to be the right thing.

especially now. Because if I can get sick, in a land of plenty and a world of opportunity, then no one is immune to the ravages of AIDS. If I can experience profound weakness and more profound poverty, than anyone can. If I can die, then so can any of us. Because though I was infected in 1993, I was still around when HAART became available. Side effects and simple fatigue have claimed my strength in that regard. I find myself more and more in need of a support forum where there is no bullying and no flamebaiting and no false pretense.

I know I may be asking too much. And time will tell if that's possible.

But I know what I need, and I am not ashamed to ask for it. What I need here is for Val and anyone else who has disruptive intent to reconsider their targets. Even reconsider their participation if amity is impossible.

After all, Val is financially wealthy and socially connected and asymptomatic, right? What a wonderful life. One would think he would wish to spread that warmth around the globe, instead of hurting those who cannot even rise from their wheelchairs and beds to do battle.

This whole patch of ugly has made me very sad. Not for the forums, really. Just for humanity in general.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Thank you, Alex and thank you, Milker. I really don't see why have I hurt Jonathan by stating some personal things. However, I do accept the blame for being naïf. And although he just stated plainly what his thoughts are about me, all the advices I've given to hundreds of forum members in distress, and all the confort... I will apologize to him publicly. I have never been afraid of apologies. And never will. Sorry, Jonathan, for upsetting you so much! It was far from being the purpose of my reply to you. Again, I seriously and sincerely hope you will get better soon, and wish you a pleasant and tranquil Saturday. I know I need it and am about to guess that so do you!

Here's a thought: Let's all stop trying to be "right" all the time. What I have seen happen at times here is that people belittle or negate someone else's reality. I've seen some write about how their life with HIV is "manageable" and someone else either states how HIV is a horrible and fatal disease (I think we all know this to be true) or that they are living with rose colored glasses. On the flip side, someone writes about the horrible struggle they are living with and others jump in and attack for being all doom and gloom. There is plenty bad about some attacks from both "sides" -- and I find it all unnecessary, because each of our realities is true for us. Just because I am CURRENTLY having an OK time dealing with my virus, doesn't mean someone else is wrong if they are not. That, I think, is the crux of the problem here. It is not really a "newbie"/"oldbie" issue. I know newly infected people who are having a horrible time and I know people who have been infected for over 20 years who are cruising along just fine.Here's the important point, in my opinion. While we are tied together with the same virus, we all have unique journeys in living with it. If we remember to state our own realities and offer support to others, perhaps we can get past the need to be having the "one true and correct" journey with this virus. We are individuals, so let's learn and gain hope from the different experiences and offer support where needed.

As far as the original subject of the thread goes, I stand by my first impression that this was a bitch slap disguised as a matter to be debated. As far as the guise goes, it makes me sigh.

What am I? Newbie or oldbie? Been infected 7 years, diagnosed 4+ years, still asymptomatic (I think), no meds yet. Who gives a hoot? I hate being pigeon-holed at the best of times. Last I checked I was female and Eurasian!

I have MANY hiv+ friend now, on and off the forums and for that I am truly thankful. I don't believe I've ever belonged to a clique (and if I did, no one ever informed me!), so I'm in total agreement with what Rod says here:

Some of us have made friends, that we associate with on the forums, phone, emails, IM, PM and or visits. If that is a clique, then I'll be damned if I don't belong to one the largest ones here on the forums. I’m proud of the friendships I’ve made. There is nothing special anyone has to do in making friends.

Here's a thought: Let's all stop trying to be "right" all the time. What I have seen happen at times here is that people belittle or negate someone else's reality. I've seen some write about how their life with HIV is "manageable" and someone else either states how HIV is a horrible and fatal disease (I think we all know this to be true) or that they are living with rose colored glasses. On the flip side, someone writes about the horrible struggle they are living with and others jump in and attack for being all doom and gloom. There is plenty bad about some attacks from both "sides" -- and I find it all unnecessary, because each of our realities is true for us. Just because I am CURRENTLY having an OK time dealing with my virus, doesn't mean someone else is wrong if they are not. That, I think, is the crux of the problem here. It is not really a "newbie"/"oldbie" issue. I know newly infected people who are having a horrible time and I know people who have been infected for over 20 years who are cruising along just fine.Here's the important point, in my opinion. While we are tied together with the same virus, we all have unique journeys in living with it. If we remember to state our own realities and offer support to others, perhaps we can get past the need to be having the "one true and correct" journey with this virus. We are individuals, so let's learn and gain hope from the different experiences and offer support where needed.

There is a lot of wisdom and insight here, as well as hurt, bruised egos and bitter feelings. Let's talk ownership of the way we use words as weapons (or images) OK??!!!! Let's be honest with ourselves when our angry and intelligence collides to form a smoldering ember at the heart of a spear... we may loft as someone. Let's take responsibility for each other and for a safe place here home. Let's hold each other accountable, but not always in a public way with the rallying cry of warfare, where we destroy THE ENTIRE VILLAGE and all the children...

I want to think about the fluidity of life, about the change and the oscillation of life and death. Sometimes HIV is manageable for days, weeks, years and decades, in other contexts it maims and kills its prey. IT IS BOTH MANAGEABLE AND NOT, depending on who, what, where, why and how... such is the change.

Over and over we hear posts from people asking the question "am I a newby or an oldbie"? We can't fit the flavours of our lives in little candy coloured ships of this and that.

Death runs swift on stealthy feet, be joy behind the clouds little lamb.

-- if a woman complains about the issues raised by gay men in this part of the forum, I would certainly direct them to the women's section.

Where will you direct a straight man who complains about gay male issues raised in this forum? Living With HIV is for everyone, whether infected or affected by HIV, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, and all that. The majority of members may be gay men but AIDSMEDS is for everyone.

I thought the Women's Forum is for women to discuss issues candidly which in typical male-dominated social structures are inhibited.

Where will you direct a straight man who complains about gay male issues raised in this forum? SD

Well, that's a good question actually. I think if a straight male is uncomfortable with a specific thread in LIVING WITH, then it might be in his best interest to avoid that thread.

If it seemed that I was implying that AIDSMEDS was not for everyone, I was misstating. Though I am a little suprised that anyone would take umbrage to my comment.

I simply said that, now that we DO have a safe place for women's issues, I would direct someone uncomfortable in a forum where men's (particularly gay men's) issues predominate have a safe haven.

Same with the Long Term Survivors forum. Safe havens for those discussions endemic to a specific group (or groups), where fighting for the right to have our viewpoints recognized as valid is not an energy-draining part of the process.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

If it seemed that I was implying that AIDSMEDS was not for everyone, I was misstating. Though I am a little suprised that anyone would take umbrage to my comment.

I sure didn't take umbrage nor believe you implied AIDSMEDS is just for us homos. It struck me while reading the comment you probably inadvertently forgot heterosexual males (all 3 or 4 of them, it seems) who might also be offended by one of the more graphic threads I've read.

If that situation came up and a person complained I would, like you, suggest he (or she) not read the post after it is clear the subject is not to their liking. That is a reasonable general rule for all of us.

You know, I think many of us are at fault for poo-poo'ing the knowledge of the oldies and also of giving doomsday prophecy to the newly diagnosed. It's like that in life. Parents and grandparents tell their kids (and grand kids) that 'they'll understand when they're older'. Hell, even I've done that on occasion. Some of us are green and unseasoned and some of us are old and jaded. It's nothing more, nothing less.

If this were a forum on high performance cars, I guarantee there would be the debate over muscle cars and Detroit Iron vs the Ricers. Which is better? Neither, actually. But there is a lot of information to be learned from both generations. There is experience in living with this crap called HIV / AIDS that comes from the 'old timers' to be learned from and enthusiasm and hope from the newbies, along with new drugs and treatments that were completely unavailable a decade or two ago.

Likely, I'll never lose hundreds or even 10's of my peers (those recently diagnosed) die from complications. These new treatments are almost a pleasure compared to what I read from what was available in the late 80's and early 90's, and you won't generally hear me bitch about what a bad time I'm having from the meds. I know my problems couldn't hold a candle to what others have and are experiencing.

I think what we all need to remember that experiences are just that. They are not guarantees. I could be sick tomorrow from some unexpected OI that would kill me, or I might not. These 'old timers' survived when others of the same period did not? Why? Who knows. All I know is that I learn something from almost every person on these forums at some time and in some way. If nothing else, it helps keep me grounded somewhere between despair and total bliss of denial.

I didn't see this as an attack against Tim, but I've been out of town for a few days and haven't caught up. I will say that I met Tim in Montreal. He's older than me, for sure, but I didn't see him as an 'old man'. I saw him as an older guy riding around on a motorized (what do you call it, tricycle? I'm not sure) with his HighLighter (Lifer) high-lighting pen with him being funny as hell. I also met Joe and Stephen, Andy, Jonathan, Rocky, Lisa, Alan, and others who've been living with this shit for so much longer than me. I guess I've gained a certain respect for them and how they handle themselves after the crap they've been through. I can only hope my trip with HIV / AIDS is a bit easier, but mostly that I can still handle myself with courage and with an interest in helping the newly diagnosed after as long as they've been living with it. I can easily excuse an occasional gripe about how the newbies don't listen; hell, often we don't. It would be a big mistake to miss out on the wealth of information and support they offer, though.

It's so easy to form an opinion when we don't actually know a person or have talked to them. For me, there's an acceptance of others that comes from meeting and gaining appreciation for those folks and what they've been through. I'm sure that some, who haven't met other member in real life, won't experience that. This is partially why the AMG in Montreal was so meaningful to me.

Ok, enough rambling. I see an age generation gap as well as a gap in time living with this virus. Either way, we just need to close the gap some and show a bit more respect towards others. That would go a long way towards making this a truly inclusive forum.