It's not ironic at all. Israelis may do things differently as, for one, they have a different culture to deal with so they may have to play by different rules. So this has no bearing on American Jewry.

MO, starting from Rabbi JBS, on the other hand, touts modernity as a reason to do things differently whereas traditional orthodox tout absolute fidelity to halacha and daas Torah as their banner. Though, again, the Yetzer Hara is happy to target everyone.

katan i think you have things a little mixed up. Rabbi Solevechick simply valued the modern world as well as the torah. He wasn't saying the modern world was more important than the torah. Simialar to the Rambam who also valued the modern world and studied plato and aristotle

Hakatan: Just to clarify, Modern Orthodoxy also had Daas Torah, just not yours.

The reason why MO has a higher OTD rate then other groups is because all the yeshivish, litvish and chassidish boys and girls who are frustrated with the insular way of life they are forced to lead got fed up and found a more enlightening derech to Hashem. Unfortunately, after years of being forced to observe the mitzvous instead of teaching them how to love it, all the mitzvous seem abhorrent and they go off the derech completely. You should think of MO has the Jewish Safety Net which is the last step before people go completely off.

Just make sure to exclude those who do not have fidelity to Halacha (such as the Sect that has been in the news recently). They are even more to the left than MO, as they completely disregard Halachos. (I'll leave it at that)

Or to Paraphrase yourself:

"The Cult, starting from Rabbi "saved by Kastner the Zionist", on the other hand, touts backwardness as a reason to do things differently whereas traditional orthodox tout absolute fidelity to halacha and daas Torah as their banner. Though, again, the Yetzer Hara is happy to target everyone."

I'm still just so mad about the whole thing, to maintain Omerta and prefer that the abuser continues abusing (to the point where bribes are offered & threats are made), rather than making a Cheshbon Hanefesh and fixing what is wrong.

Being (Bein?)Adam LMakom is not less severe than bein adam lchaveiro."

Sorry but it is. Yom Kippur is mechapeir for one who does teshuvah for aveiros between Man and Hashem, but even Y"K is not mechapeir on aveiros between adam l'chaveiro without the oveir getting mechilah from the person against whom he sinned. Btw, some people forget that mitzvos between man and man are ALSO bein adam l'Makom, because Hashem commands ALL the mitzvos, so if one commits an aveira like cheating someone in business, he has sinned both against his victim AND Hashem, and that's what makes it worse. Just saying...

Oomis, I think the reason a Y"K is not mechaper on BA"LCH without mechilah is because the person hasn't fixed the aveirah; it's like "toivel v'sheretz b'yado". In fact, at times, the offended is obligated to give mechilah, and the offender, having done his due diligence in [sincerely] attempting to appease, can get a kaparah from HKB"H even without mechilah from chavero. I don't think it has anything to do with which is more chamur per se.

Surely, though, a lack of BA"LCH, even in someone who seems to display exemplary BA"LM, indicates that his BA"LM is false. I think the reverse is true to some extent as well; the ultimate bein adam lachavero is performed as part of one's avodas Hashem, which is only sincere if it includes bein adam laMakom (assuming that it's not deficient merely because of a lack of knowledge).

It's definitely more pleasant to deal with someone who excels only in BA"LCH than with someone who excels only in BA"LM, but both are severely deficient.

Actualy the problem with Kastner was not really that he was a Zionist but rather that he was an accomplice to mass-murder as was basically proven in a court off law and transcribed in full by the the secular zionist BEn HEcht in his book Perfidy.

So Satmar quite understandbly does not glorify a man that was for the most part a murderer who did one thing to "try and allow people to ignore his entire "resume" that so happened to save the Stmar Rebbe's life.

The reason why MO has a higher OTD rate then other groups is because all the yeshivish, litvish and chassidish boys and girls who are frustrated with the insular way of life they are forced to lead got fed up and found a more enlightening derech to Hashem.
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Absolutely INCORRECT. That is not the history of MO - MO was started as a way to keep pre-WW2 Americans who wanted to retain some standard of shmiras hamitzvos from falling off altogether. Rav Soloveichik was a pessimist who felt Yiddishkeit had to be diluted to meet the demands of American life. (The Satmar Rov ZYA was a pessimist in the other direction - he felt that isolation was the way to preserve Judaism "on tryfe soil.")

That being said, a 50% dropout rate sounds very high - in fact I'd guess it is 2.5 times the correct figure. Does that include those who leave MO to grow in Yiddishkeit? :) Even so, the figure makes no sense.

far east, I did not imply, CH"V, that Rabbi JBS held more of secular knowledge than of the Torah. That is, however, an MO phenomenon, even though he explicitly stated that it's better to avoid culture as much as possible. For some reason, the practicality of this part of his address seems lost to MO.

GAW, I am not defending that "cult", as you call it, and I don't necessarily agree with anything/some things/everything that they do. And I have stated numerous times that the Yetzer HaRa targets everyone.

But that was not my point. My point was and is that as opposed to traditional orthodoxy, MO is unique in that it is mattir issurim and its very birth was based on a now-known-to-be faulty premise, that traditional Orthodoxy could not survive in America. Not only can it and does it, but even "Ultra-Orthodoxy" thrives. Back to MO, Zionism alone is a major problem. This has all been discussed repeatedly.

anon1m0us, MO does not believe in Daas Torah like traditional orthodox do and, from what I understand, MO frowns on the whole concept; they obviously do believe in psak halacha from a Rav, though. If I am wrong here and MO does teach "daas Torah", I would be interested in being corrected on this. This is irrelevant to the point of the matter.

As I stated above, I was discussing a movement, not a person or persons. I did not mean to "hate" anyone, CH"V, only to point out the spiritual dangers of MO.

For the record, I have never posted under any other name and I do not do so now; nor do I expect to do so in the future. Therefore, the "Joseph" references are not appreciated as they are false.

HaKatan, you've claimed many times that MO is matir issurim. You've been asked what issurim they are matir, but have never answered with anything other than Zionism. Please realize that many big Rabbonim disagree with that, as they hold Zionism to be perfectly fine. Can you provide an issur that MO allows?

As for Daas Torah, MO definitely believes in asking a Rav halachic shailos, and not just deciding things for ourselves. However, we don't believe that Rabbonim are necessarily experts in all areas. If I'm sick, I call a doctor, not my Rav. If I'm looking to buy a house, I'll speak to a real estate agent and a mortgage broker, not my Rav. I speak to my Rav about matters that affect me spiritually. I sometimes ask my Rav about others issues simply because he is experienced in other matters and I value his opinion, but I take that as advice, not as an absolute psak that must be followed.

You should think of MO has the Jewish Safety Net which is the last step before people go completely off.
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It's not. What really happens is that those who don't want to go completely off live at the fringes of their communities and keep just enough of their community's minhagim to maintain a level of social acceptance. They become Chassidish-lite or Yeshivish-lite, and in some cases they do so for personal reasons and keep their kids in charedi chinuch in the hope their kids will not fall as they did.

Those who want out leave, plain and simple. They're more apt to become self-hating Jews than even deformed or preservative, let alone MO.

I'm still just so mad about the whole thing, to maintain Omerta and prefer that the abuser continues abusing (to the point where bribes are offered & threats are made), rather than making a Cheshbon Hanefesh and fixing what is wrong.

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Is this YU? Leave the threats out, and it sure sounds like some recent revelations about the goings-on at YU, where offenders were shipped off, free to assume chinuch positions elsewhere.

I agree with this. I would also expect a Chatholic Church type investigation into YU. I would not be shocked if R' Norman Lamm will have to give up his pension and/or settle in a lawsuit.

The difference between that & the other case is that YU will probably cooperate, while the other sect has acted like the Mafia by threatening, attempting to bribe & denounced the victim, so that no one else dares speak up.

DaMoshe -"HaKatan, you've claimed many times that MO is matir issurim. You've been asked what issurim they are matir, but have never answered with anything other than Zionism. Please realize that many big Rabbonim disagree with that, as they hold Zionism to be perfectly fine. Can you provide an issur that MO allows?"

Many eat gelatin that R' Ralbag Mattered. R' Moshe zt'l held it was Ossur. In the UWS they carry on Shabbos; R' Moshe zt'l held Broadway was a Reshus Harabim. Therefore you can't make an Eruv in the UWS. I could go on, but this should suffice. Noone in the MO community is on the caliber to argue with R' Moshe zt'l!

I never heard of R' Ralbag saying regular gelatin is kosher. I do know that he allows a synthetic gelatin to be used. Even if he does allow it, I never heard of any other Rav allowing it. In fact, every MO Rav I've ever spoken to told me not to use the Triangle K hechsher.

As for the UWS eruv, I honestly don't know much about it. I assume there is a Rav they rely on. But to your point saying that nobody can argue on R' Moshe zt"l, would you say the same about chassidim who use the eruv in Brooklyn? After all, R' Moshe made it very clear that an eruv couldn't be made in Brooklyn either. Or do you think chassidim can argue on R' Moshe, but MO can't?

My Rav told me he follows R' Moshe with the eruvin. Most MO Rabbonim I know do the same. I did speak to a Rav who was a talmud of R' Tuvia Goldstein zt"l, who told me R' Tuvia held the Brooklyn eruv was allowed, and could be relied on. Would you say R' Tuvia was able to argue on R' Moshe?

"Absolutely INCORRECT. That is not the history of MO - MO was started as a way to keep pre-WW2 Americans who wanted to retain some standard of shmiras hamitzvos from falling off altogether. Rav Soloveichik was a pessimist who felt Yiddishkeit had to be diluted to meet the demands of American life."

That is abolutely INCORRECT. MO started because FRIM jews did not know how to survive outside the shtatel. They came to America and was lost. Rav Soloveichik taught them how to be a frum jew and do the avodas hashem no matter what country one lives in. I actually laughed out loud that there is a notion of "Yeshivish Lite". Most of them are commonly known as BUMS!

Health- ANYONE can argue on R' Moshe zt'l! Just because he was a gadol does not mean everyone follows his psak. A great example is carrying in Boro Park, a place R' Moshe assured, but yet you have THOUSANDS of frum Jews (maybe chassidim are the new Mo) carrying every shabbos. You have hundreds of Sefardim carrying on Ocean Parkway!!

anon1m0us, your grammar and your information are on the exact same level. Rav Soloveichik HIMSELF is my source. He did not see a future for "Orthodoxy" unless it was watered down. The gedolim of the time made a fool of him time and time again, especially with his views on the medine and on cooperation with koifrim gemurim.

He was proven wrong. MO was a holding tank that worked for a generation or two until the Torah-true world rebuilt itself in the US. YCT is the new YU, and YCT is just a fringe group which will die out when Weiss is gone.

Bums (oisvorfen) are one thing and the kind of people I am talking about are another. Bums are dropouts who do nothing; the people I am talking about are often very successful but reluctantly compromised on some standards.

It was the present Rav Ralba"g's father, who set up his hechsher as a business venture that was aimed at those who just wanted to keep the very baseline standard of kashrus, who accepted gelatin at one time.

I knew Rav Y.C Ralba"g AH and I don't think he would have eaten some of the things he supervised himself. He was not even competing with the OU but looking to find ways that traditional people who kept kashrus, of whom there were many at the time, could have more choices.

As for MO, until about a generation ago it was a diving board from which the sons and daughters of its stalwart members, especially those who wanted to enter the pulpit rabbinate, jumped down to the conman movement and even lower. Its members were similar to those who call themselves traditional in EY - baseline kashrus, shul in the morning, shopping in the afternoon.

Then, when the going became a bit easier for shomrei Shabbos in the workplace after the civil rights movement and, more importantly, when the Torah-true world was more firmly established in the 60s and 70s, MO had already dropped its "shvachers." The remaining MO, who were more Torah-committed but tended to be of second-or-third generation American stock rather than immigrants and first-generation Americans like those who rebuilt yeshivos and Chassidus, began to move to the right. They started to look to the rabbonim and even the Rebbeim from Europe for leadership, as they realized their rabbonim lacked in scholarship and did not represent Torah values.

Now, it is only a matter of time before the right wing of MO (most of those who are committed to MO), most of the yeshiva world, and Chassidim who want to enter the modern world mostly to be able to raise families with dignity, converge. Gone will be welfare dependency on the one hand, but more important, "Torah uMada" will be buried with dignity, in favor of intensive Torah learning combined with secular studies for parnosso only. Even 25 years ago, I knew of no serious YU student who wasted his life studying philosophy or anthropology - most leveraged their year in EY to finish YU in three years or transfer to Columbia engineering school before going on for a law degree or MBA.

Left out will be the left wing MO, who will jump down to YCT (a malignancy that cannot last but a generation) and then to "renewal" or who knows what, and those who choose or are socially pressured to choose an isolationist way of life. The former will sadly join the secular Jewish malaise, and the latter will find it difficult to cope and eventually become a small minority.

Regardless of the above, the dropout rate among people who truly follow MO, as opposed to those who just go to MO shuls, cannot be 50%. Calling the crowd that was never observant "MO" is like calling the Israelis who come every Shabbos to eat at a Chabad House in Thailand or India "Lubavitchers." It indeed WAS about 50% in the 50s and early 60s.

MO people didn't look to Rabbonim from Europe for leadership. We simply respect them for who they are, because (shocker!) we don't automatically look down on those who don't share the same hashkafos as us.

Right-wing MO will not join with the yeshiva world. We are doing just fine, thank you!

TheBearIsBack-I am glad to hear that my grammar and your intelligence are on the same level. At least we have something in common. R’ Soloveichik did not, because you miscued his teachings, did not condone going OTD or diluting the Torah. He saw an epidemic of yeshivish and chassidish people working on shabbos, not keeping the mitzvous and he decided to act. Please name me ONE Mitvah D’Oraysah that he said one can violate. He showed how one can still be a Torah Jew and work, unlike the Yeshivah world that decries everyone who does not sit in Lakewood. While he might not have been accurate with his predictions, he at least was active in the welfare of Jews which he felt best. Think of how many Jews would have been completely OTD, if not for MO and its teachings. To compare MO with traditional, conservative, or reform, than you might as well compare the Torah to the New Testament since both assertions are ridiculous! R’ Soloveichik and his MO philosophy might not be what you believe in, but to knock it as incorrect shows your sinas chinam, since that is exactly what transpired during the churban.
In this forum you differentiate been “Yeshivish Lite” and bums, but in reality, to you that differentiation makes no difference. If a Yeshivish guy stops wearing his black hat, you define him as a bum, not Yeshivish lite so stop trying to fool yourself and others.

anon1m0us: And mitzvas d'rabbanan are chopped liver? If mo billed itself as a kiruv stage for those "at risk" of going off the derech, you'd be right. But that's not the case. They bill themselves as an equal or even better form of full Judaism.

There is a big difference between going OTD and what Rav Soloveichik himself said his reasons for creating MO were. The epidemic of formerly frum Yidden working on Shabbos stopped gradually because of the post WW2 influx of "yeshivish and Chassidish people." Those who arrived before WW2, except for a small group that was based around Torah voDaas (then in Williamsburgh), were lost. No one identified as "chassidish" before WW2 except the Malochim.

anon1m0us, you are just regurgitating the worst stereotypes of the Torah-true world. I am stating facts, based on what the major figure of MO himself stated. He felt he had to bend Yiddishkeit to the times. The European refugees who kept their emunah in Hitler's or Stalin's gehennom weren't about to bend in America, and what's more, they worked hard and built up a financial infrastructure of their own. Even some who compromised in the early days upon arrival in America were able to pull themselves back up because the social and financial infrastructure were there for them. Sadly, welfare became too readily available, and it enticed some characters to "learn all day" who should have been working, but that is another story altogether. Reb Yoilish ZYA told his followers to go out and work, and work they did, so it was no longer necessary to even change your dress to get ahead.

DaMoshe, you do not realize that serious MO and the yeshiva world are converging on each other. I remember what MO was in 1984, when it did serve as a step up for me (albeit a forced one - I preceded Chabad on my college campus, Aish was much smaller than it was today, and the MO community was all I had - I outgrew it in about a year). I was pleasantly shocked to see how much higher standards were in 2005-7 when I was last in the US. The Five Towns were pure MO, kippa off for work style, in 1984. Now, yeshiva leit and even Chassidim live in Cedarhurst and Woodmere, and they've strengthened the old MO community.

MO can serve as a kiruv stage for those coming from secular backgrounds, but not as a haven for dropouts. Dropouts of the type the great tolerant MO here call "bums" want to remain a part of their old social world, even as the objects of derision. (That goes for the MO dropouts I knew in college too - they wanted to be with their old friends from high school and their year in EY, but they also wanted to date non-Jews, and the latter won out.) Those who leave for (pseudo-)intellectual reasons don't want any part of Judaism, and if they want spirituality, they find it in places we don't want to mention here.

MO was a horaas shaah that certainly did save some people, mostly descendants of Americans who came before WW2. However, having quite nobly served its purpose, it is quietly fading away as its constituents realize that in a free society, you do not have to bend in any way, or accept kefiradige thought (aka Western philosophy) in any way to succeed.

However, having quite nobly served its purpose, it is quietly fading away as its constituents realize that in a free society, you do not have to bend in any way, or accept kefiradige thought (aka Western philosophy) in any way to succeed.

Even 25 years ago, I knew of no serious YU student who wasted his life studying philosophy or anthropology - most leveraged their year in EY to finish YU in three years or transfer to Columbia engineering school before going on for a law degree or MBA.

These two statements prove each other. Like "Bear" said, Torah U'Maddah is a relic of the draw of knowledge (which unfortunately doesn't exist in the most part. Now people just want their degrees so they can afford Yiddishkeit.) Perhaps it still exists for Yechidim to use Maddah as a tool for Yiddishkeit, but most (IMHO) "MO" don't hold of it.

There was never any real draw of knowledge. There was an era in American history when everyone felt they had to become more "American," not realizing that the American "melting pot" ideal never could work out, especially for people like us who have a way of life that is far older and far richer than that of the "Americans."

Many Jews, even those who wanted deep down to retain Yiddishkeit, succumbed to that ideology. There was never any attempt by anyone other than Rav Soloveichik and R' Bernard Revel to use madda as a tool for Yiddishkeit. For most, it was just a tool to keep Yiddishkeit palatable enough during an era of assimilation for the sake of conformity.

The one YU rabbi I know who fell for the madda trap preached to deaf ears - and rightfully so. He faded away and sold out for an easy position after starting off as a vocal advocate for Jewish issues. No one of any integrity wanted to listen to what he had to say.

I have suffered far more for wont of a good plumber or electrician than I have from not having access to a good doctor. I can figure out the results of a blood test, or even get online and figure out what I have, and get hold of medication on my own. I cannot fix even a simple leak without spending time that I don't have and money on tools I'll use once and then lose track of. With Obamacare looming, and engineering jobs (another formerly good field for frum Yidden) moving to India, I think some people ought to use their minds for learning at night and their hands for working during the day. What's more, with surgery becoming more automated, I have no problem with Ramesh from Mumbai operating on me (I am now in Asia and I plan to have minor elective surgery done here by a local doctor because it's something a mohel or even a cosmetician can handle), but if I were building or renovating a home, I'd prefer that the complex plumbing and heating systems of today be installed by a Yid with a Yiddishe kop.

I have suffered far more for wont of a good plumber or electrician than I have from not having access to a good doctor. I can figure out the results of a blood test, or even get online and figure out what I have, and get hold of medication on my own. I cannot fix even a simple leak without spending time that I don't have and money on tools I'll use once and then lose track of. With Obamacare looming, and engineering jobs (another formerly good field for frum Yidden) moving to India, I think some people ought to use their minds for learning at night and their hands for working during the day. What's more, with surgery becoming more automated, I have no problem with Ramesh from Mumbai operating on me (I am now in Asia and I plan to have minor elective surgery done here by a local doctor because it's something a mohel or even a cosmetician can handle), but if I were building or renovating a home, I'd prefer that the complex plumbing and heating systems of today be installed by a Yid with a Yiddishe kop.

Health: I looked up what R' Moshe wrote about an eruv in Manhattan. He originally wrote that he held it wasn't good. However, he wrote that yesh al mi lismoch, and he would not be against those who used it, because they did have a valid opinion to go by. He even wrote that this is a machlokes in halachah and Hashem is rejoicing over it!

Later, R' Aharon Kotler wanted to sign strongly against it, and asked R' Moshe to join in signing a letter. Out of respect for R' Aharon, he signed. He write a letter saying that while he initially wrote a different opinion, he signed that letter for R' Aharon.

So to the claim that nobody can argue on R' Moshe, even R' Moshe himself said that he understood the opinion that the eruv was good even though he didn't agree, and felt there was nothing wrong with relying on those opinions.

popa_bar_abbaIncorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

So to the claim that nobody can argue on R' Moshe, even R' Moshe himself said that he understood the opinion that the eruv was good even though he didn't agree, and felt there was nothing wrong with relying on those opinions....

...until Rav Aharon told him that there was something wrong with relying on them, and out of respect for Rav Aharon, he agreed.

That is to say, that Rav Moshe felt that he should not argue with Rav Aharon on the matter. And we should not argue with Rav Moshe...

The only way you can get ahead in medicine is through blatant or subtle insurance fraud. The problem is that in the end, you get caught. Otisville Medical Group is not a very profitable concern, and you can even end up in a facility where your chavrusa is a real Dwek.

Why do people keep stating that R' YBS invented Modern Orthodoxy? It was flourishing well before he came to the US.
And, for the record, R' Samson Raphael Hirsch "invented" modern Orthodoxy, and ALL of us practice it in one way or another.

TuM and TIDE are completely different. The remaining followers of R'Hirsch (KAJ) are very charedi.

R' Soloveichik invented an ideology to match the watered-down "Orthodoxy" of pre-war America, and in so doing, he indeed brought it up several levels. It really does go back to Young Israel, which at the time was far different from what it is now.