Author
Topic: Some thoughts about Void and Skull Knight connection and some other things (Read 8404 times)

pav327

Hello everyone, I've been lurking here for quite some time, but decided to join only now!

Wanted to share a couple of theories about different things, some ideas have more basis that others.

So, I begin with Gaiseric. We know that he was able to battle and conquer a number of kingdoms, while wearing a skull helmet. Let's presume that the armor he actually fought in was not that fancy armor we saw in v10_p120, when Gaiseric's legend was told, but he Berserk Armor. Him having this armor seems like a fair justification for his legendary fighting ability. If he had the Berserk Armor that would make him to fight his own Beast of the Darkness, right? And for that reason he would need a mage or two (or more) to seal away the Beast. Let's presume among those mages were Void and Flora.

Next, we saw the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth in Wyndham with a lot of dead people from the Gaiseric's Capital. They're all have Brands in the same places, so they are the sacrifices, right? But none of them seems to be eaten or ripped apart, not initially (there was no feast ceremony as it was on Eclipse that we saw) nor in all this years by random spirits and apostles. We clearly see that they were mostly crushed to death, it looks nothing like Eclipse aftermath we saw in v14_p084-085. Sacrifices tend to attract evil spirits and with so many sacrifices in one place would make a huge mess every night, wouldn't it? So, the fact that this Brands does not attract evil spirits and everyone have them in the same places, making me think that those are not the genuine brands and there was a cult of the Idea of Evil in the Capital and they carved the brand themselves.

Gaiseric might have wanted to transcend into divine (demonic) being and to become what's Griffith is now (Absolute and ultimate leader of human and astral worlds) or to summon someone from the astral world to the human's world (SK already knew that it's possible to do once in a thousand years in v18_p201). And Void was the brains behind all the rituals and knowledge, he seems smart enough for this. We know that people are able to research and dive into astral/apostle matters on their own, because mages and witches exist and Daiba have created the Man-made Beherit. At the same time Flora maintained Gaiseric's sanity so he could continue to use Berserk Armor. She said something like "I want to believe the heart of a man still remains within you" to SK in v24_p142, which probably means that she knew him as a human. Flora knows for a fact that God Hand member were human once and all other stuff about the whole sacrificing ritual.

So, what if Void at some point digged deep enough to realize the nature of what Gaiseric is actually want to become or to do. And he opposes him, telling him that he should stop and he won't help him anymore. This makes Gaiseric mad and he sends Void to the St.Albion into the Tower of Conviction for tortures, while proceeding with his plans. And Void becomes that sage that Mozgus told about in v18_p109.

Here I should focus on what I think happened 1000 years ago with the Imperial Capital. A lot of people think that it was a result of the Sage's sacrifice, which made him into Void. But mathematically, logistically and in general it doesn't make much sense. Here's why. Each Eclipse happens about every 216 years. I we count the years here's what we get:

So, the Event happened a couple hundreds years before Void became Void and we know for a fact the Sage existed at the same time as Gaiseric did. So if Sage is Void, he had to have access to a place like Skellig or Spirit House, because time flows differently there. This makes me think that Sage/Void was a mage when he was a human.

Logistically Sage was locked up in the Tower of Conviction, which is in st.Albion and The Imperial Capital was standing where the Tower of Rebirths is - in Wyndham. I don't think we know for sure how far apart they actually are, but we know that the place of the Eclipse is delimited from the human world by a big black funnel thing (as seen in v12_p226), it's not limitless and it's centre should be where the future apostle is located, not in a different city. Mages and witches on the other hand can have out of the body experience and travel distances as a luminous bodies. And also, I think it was mentioned that Eclipse happens at the same location each time, which is not in Wyndham. Though I don't remember where exactly it was said, so I might imagine things.

Other thing is it doesn't make much sense for Sage to sacrifice the Imperial Capital, it would mean it's his most precious thing. If anyone, it's Gaiseric who could've sacrifice the capital. But it doesn't seem like Gaiseric or SK was part of the God Hand or apostle - Brand of the sacrifice doesn't react to him at all.

So what destroyed the Capital? I think it was Sage/Void and he did it with magic to stop the Gaiseric with his cult of the Idea of Evil and whatever he intended to do. From the legend we know that it were lightnings and earthquakes that destroyed the Capital, which sound more like an actions of the Four Kings of the World rather than apostles. We know that they're powerful enough to do that, we only saw a glimpses of their power in the Enoch village and Vrittanis, and it was only a freshly graduated witch, imagine what a powerful mage could do. The angel that came down to the Sage might have been Sage's possesion by one of the elementals (as we saw with Schierke in v25_p140-141) or it could've been some other mage or witch that wanted to free him up (which Sage maybe sacrificed later to become Void). That angel actually might have been Flora, we saw that she could become a giant figure in a wall of fire. So I think the Sage (future Void) destroyed the Capital with magic to prevent something even more terrible from happening. And Gaiseric either fled or tried to actually fight the astral gods and got devoured by the Berserk Armor as a result.

We know pretty much for sure that Gaiseric is Skully. Skully said that he wore the Berserk Armor in the past (v28_p019). Schierke said that previous owner of this Armor was devoured by it (v27-p024). And we know that the previous owner was Gaiseric by the skull shaped helmet of the Armor when Guts first put it on. And if we look at v27-p024 (Schierke tells about the previous owner) we can see resemblance with the Skull Knight - same sword spikes near the hilt, cape and shape of the head and eyes. And we know for sure, that Gaiseric didn't actually die as a result, at least his soul doesn't. I think he lost all of his humanity (Guts now in the process of loosing it) and couldn't exist outside of the Berserk Armor anymore. So, to free him from the Armor and Beast of Darkness Flora took him to the Elfhelm (Schierke knew about the island from Flora, right?) to the Flowerstom King. The King was able to move Gaiseric soul from Berserk Armor to the Skull Knight Armor. That's why "he felt kinda like an elf" to Puck in v18_p216. In PS2 game he actually sounds very much like a voice speaking into a metal pipe. And also he got a whole soup of Beherits in his chest, I don't think there's any person inside. Maybe being on the Skellig island is what Skully meant by saying he's no longer lives within the reason of time in v29_p019.

As for Skully's current intentions, in v29-p142 Roderick said that roses are the symbols of nobility and Skully has the rose as his symbol. Maybe he still want to become the king of the world instead of Griffith/Femto? Or maybe he has same dream as Griffith and he's wishing for his own perfect paradise castle and now he want to take it for himself? Maybe he didn't misjudged the effect of his Beherit sword and he actually wanted to bring back his Capital? Falconia seems like a perfect reincarnation of the Gaiseric Capital. Because it appeared on top of Wyndham, which was build on top of Imperial Capital and Falconia has similar Ancient Greek and Roman architecture as we seen on the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth. Other thing is that Skully might have saved Guts numerous times not because he's a cool dude, but in order for him to fight the current king of the worlds - Griffith. Same is why he wasn't fast enough and allowed Femto to rape Casca and corrupt the child, because Fetus now is the only weak point Griffith has and it's unique to Guts and Casca. It's seems a bit far fetched, but then again, Skully followed Guts's life from his birth, he knew Guts was born from a corpse (v9_p019), so he might be able peek through time and actually plan such insane chain of events.

After the destruction of the Capital, Sage got to the another dimension similar where Skellig or Spirit Tree located, where time flows differently. While he was healing and restoring he researched even deeper into causality and fate and completely changed his mind and views. Or maybe he always was into fate and the reason for his conflict with Gaiseric was that Sage/Void thought that Gaiseric is not fated to be the king of the worlds that he wanted to be. That's how 216 years in human dimension passed and Sage got to his breakdown (maybe he realised that fate is premeditated and he has no power over anything no matter what he does) and he sacrifices his closest friend or pupil or, let's make it dramatic, his lover. And his sacrifice was Flora. In v24_p084 Guts feel the ache in his Brand and some weird unusual feeling when he was introduced to Flora and he assumes that she was branded too. This one page allows to speculate that it was the Sage/Void who sacrificed her and Gaiseric/Skully saved her (and maybe at that Eclipse he lost his body to the Armor).

Though the point of time when Gaiseric became Skull Knight is a bit unclear. Seems like he still used Berserk armor at least 300 years ago, since Zodd recognized the armor and knew that it belonged to Skully and that he suffered from it (v26_p202). So, Gaiseric might've got to the point of no return and lost his body relatively recently, maybe on the Eclipse 216 years ago. Though Zodd might have known Gaiseric's story as he is probably the legend among the apostles.

Oh, and by the way, Schierke might've actually been born before Guts was, right? We don't know how much time she spend with Flora, and now we know for sure that time can flow differently in Berserk, which means the fact that Flora didn't change in appearance at all in 50 years, might be not because she's a special kind of human of the Spirit Tree preserving her from getting older, but because of time there flows differently there as well. Which means Schierke might be objectively older than Guts, which is kind of funny. Wish to see her reaction when Guts call her "onee-san".

So, this how things seems to me at this point, feel free to point out if anything goes against the facts and events in the manga, or if you have anything to add, edit or build up on top of this.

The biggest mystery for me is where the hell does Skully got his awesome horse from and what is it's nature? It's pretty damn awesome horse.

Let's presume that the armor he actually fought in was not that fancy armor we saw in v10_p120, when Gaiseric's legend was told, but he Berserk Armor. Him having this armor seems like a fair justification for his legendary fighting ability.

If he had the Berserk Armor that would make him to fight his own Beast of the Darkness, right?

No. The armor isn't responsible for the Beast of Darkness. The Beast was created by Guts's experience at the occultation ceremony. If you recall, the Beast was around long before Guts received the armor. Really, the Beast is just an analogue for Guts's anger and desire for revenge.

Here I should focus on what I think happened 1000 years ago with the Imperial Capital. A lot of people think that it was a result of the Sage's sacrifice, which made him into Void. But mathematically, logistically and in general it doesn't make much sense. Here's why. . .

I don't know that the math is all that important. As with all legends, things are never precise. There's always some ambiguity ("A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away"). I think the numbers are close enough. Also, there's the thought that "once in a 1000 years" doesn't necessarily means that it always happens every 1000 years.

So what destroyed the Capital? I think it was Sage/Void and he did it with magic to stop the Gaiseric with his cult of the Idea of Evil and whatever he intended to do. From the legend we know that it were lightnings and earthquakes that destroyed the Capital, which sound more like an actions of the Four Kings of the World rather than apostles.

Well, the discrepancy in Charlotte's story certainly lends itself to implications that it was the Four Kings. It's been mentioned before, certainly.

Eh, I don't buy it. I like to think SK has a nobler cause than that. I think he was slighted by the God Hand (Void) and he's now devoted his entire being to standing against them.

I appreciate you including references in your post. It's super helpful, but I have to admit, I'm replying to everything based on my memory (not in a place to check my volumes) so take that into account.

Well, yeah. I meant that the Armor harms not only body, but the mind as well, while taking the form of the inner self. After all Skully referred his and Flora's relationship as exactly the same as Guts and Schierke now, meaning she helped him to stay sane while he was using Armor, right?

1000 years came up a couple of times (as far as I remember) with Gaiseric and SK. First - his legend told by Charlotte (v10_p119). And second was by Zodd in v13_p007 - "You, who've been our foe for a millennium" while talking to SK. So, this makes me think that 1000 years or so is somewhat certain number.

Welp, I guess I thought that because apostles knew where exactly Eclipse will take place beforehand. Of course they might have instinct or dream about that, but I got a feeling that SK knew it as well. In v10_p107 when he saved Rickert from Count, Rosine and Bugs he said that they should hurry and not waste time on this slaughter, which made me think that SK knew they where exactly are they going and they still have to go a long way before they reach their destination, which is the place of the Eclipse Ceremony.

Well, Gaiseric wasn't such a nice guy it seems. The legend said people suffered at his reign and it's not polite to send people to tortures.

I don't know he seems a tad shady for me. But the intentions I'm speculating about are not really "bad" or "good", they're just selfish. He might be just like Griffith is - going for his dream no matter what. After all Gaiseric's legend is similar to Griffith's story.

Sure, he opposes "all inhumans" and "the five angels", but the reason for this might not be just revenge or anger with the goal is to just kill them all. He doesn't seem to be filled with rage like Guts. And again, he just let go Count, Rosine and Bugs without any fight, I think he could kill them without much trouble if he felt like it, but he doesn't.

He's way powerful and efficient at fighting apostles than Guts, there's no real reason to save him specifically for SK. Unless he needs Guts to act his role and do what he want him to do. If he knew about the Eclipse he could've prevent it by killing Griffith or by breaking in much earlier. But he was there just in time for Femto to finish raping Casca.

And there is a lot of small things about SK when he was able to see and guess through time and events. He knew Guts was born from a corpse. He knew Guts will be present at the Eclipse. He guessed Guts has ties to the elves way before Guts even met Puck. He knew Guts will end up at Flora's and he asked her to prepare and give him Berserk Armor. It seems like he always in the right place at the right time shaping the events the way he needs. And yes, this sounds a bit paranoiac even for myself

Also, does Skully allowed apostles to put Spirit Tree house on fire or was if Flora who started the fire so she could help Schierke and the rest to run away with a fire wall? Sacrificing herself for her favourite pupil really adds to her character. I guess it's an another discussion.

A very ambitious first post! I commend you for trying to solve this puzzle -- one which we've all tried our hand at a few (hundred) times. Over the years, I've taken progressively fewer guesses on the subject as it becomes more clear to me that it's a puzzle we truly aren't meant to solve with the pieces that we have in hand at the moment.

Let's presume that the armor he actually fought in was not that fancy armor we saw in v10_p120, when Gaiseric's legend was told, but he Berserk Armor. Him having this armor seems like a fair justification for his legendary fighting ability.

I think Gaiseric required that armor after he had already set himself against overwhelmingly powerful forces (like Guts). Him needing such an artifact for a fight against humans to unify the continent deeply undervalues the incredible badass Gaiseric likely was. Griffith and Guts didn't break too much of a sweat doing what they did in the Hundred Years War without mages and magical armors (slight hyperbole, but I think you catch my drift).

So, the fact that this Brands does not attract evil spirits and everyone have them in the same places, making me think that those are not the genuine brands and there was a cult of the Idea of Evil in the Capital and they carved the brand themselves.

Not sure why attracting evil spirits should play a role here, but sure, that the brands on those bodies was carved into them is an older theory that still works for me (though it does lead to a convoluted explanation, instead of them wearing the mark of sacrifice because they were sacrificed). But I don't think it necessarily needs to be a "cult of the Idea of Evil." It could have just been your regular old cult, led by Void, whose true motivations and allegiances were known only to him.

Gaiseric might have wanted to transcend into divine (demonic) being and to become what's Griffith is now

I don't get that sense at all. He seemed to have accomplished his goal of unifying the continent and _then_ supernatural forces allied themselves against him. I think presuming that there was a formalized "demonic" option back then is a pretty big leap, considering that it's widely accepted that Void was the first God Hand, meaning that there were no apostles back then.

This makes Gaiseric mad and he sends Void to the St.Albion into the Tower of Conviction for tortures, while proceeding with his plans. And Void becomes that sage that Mozgus told about in v18_p109.

Actually, if we go by what's said in Vol 18, the sage became Void right there in Albion ("an angel descended"), which makes it difficult/impossible to unify the events at Albion and Gaiseric's capital.

So, the Event happened a couple hundreds years before Void became Void and we know for a fact the Sage existed at the same time as Gaiseric did. So if Sage is Void, he had to have access to a place like Skellig or Spirit House, because time flows differently there. This makes me think that Sage/Void was a mage when he was a human.

Was the sage bunking with Gaiseric in Elfhelm during this time, because this theory requires Gaiseric's life span to be artificially extended as well, as they both wait around staring at their watches until the clock strikes 864.

I'd like to call it a foregone conclusion, but that's reaching. The ritualistic methods for the God Hand / apostle ceremonies, the connection with the Idea of Evil, it all sort of seems like a dark echo, or a distant twisted relative, of the kind of magic Schierke uses.

Other thing is it doesn't make much sense for Sage to sacrifice the Imperial Capital, it would mean it's his most precious thing. If anyone, it's Gaiseric who could've sacrifice the capital. But it doesn't seem like Gaiseric or SK was part of the God Hand or apostle - Brand of the sacrifice doesn't react to him at all.

It doesn't have to make sense in that way. What happened to Gaiseric's capital might not have been a sacrificial ceremony. And no, it doesn't make sense or work for Gaiseric to have been an apostle or a member of the God Hand.

I think it was Sage/Void and he did it with magic to stop the Gaiseric with his cult of the Idea of Evil and whatever he intended to do. From the legend we know that it were lightnings and earthquakes that destroyed the Capital, which sound more like an actions of the Four Kings of the World rather than apostles. We know that they're powerful enough to do that, we only saw a glimpses of their power in the Enoch village and Vrittanis, and it was only a freshly graduated witch, imagine what a powerful mage could do.

I'm with you! Only ... I think you have got it backwards, actually. First, I want to remind you of a detail about The Four Kings summon: It only works as a defensive barrier against evil things. It couldn't be used as a weapon in the way you're describing here, unless you have an explanation for it? Anyway, my rough, patchwork explanation for the 4/5 angels incident is that it resulted from Flora's use of the Four Kings summon to protect the city during a cataclysm that Void started (4 kings + Void = 4/5 angels as unreliably passed down in legend).

The angel that came down to the Sage might have been Sage's possesion by one of the elementals (as we saw with Schierke in v25_p140-141) or it could've been some other mage or witch that wanted to free him up (which Sage maybe sacrificed later to become Void). That angel actually might have been Flora

Wait, huh...? Flora saved the sage from imprisonment by Gaiseric...? Why would she do that and still be able to call herself friends with Gaiseric? Not sure you thought this part through...

The "angel" was probably a God Hand member (i.e. Void becoming one). After all, they were first introduced as the "desired guardian angels (or guardian angels of desire)," and the apostles consider them, and call them angels throughout the series.

And Gaiseric either fled or tried to actually fight the astral gods and got devoured by the Berserk Armor as a result

This isn't a roadblock to your notion, but it is a distinction worth noting: Zodd knew Gaiseric and the Berserk's Armor before he became the Skull Knight (as he implies in Vol 26, when he sees Guts donning the armor). And by Zodd's own boasting, he seems to have only been around for 300 years, placing Gaiseric's "death" ~300 years ago, not 1000 years ago.

I think he lost all of his humanity (Guts now in the process of loosing it) and couldn't exist outside of the Berserk Armor anymore.

Well... Guts is in the process of losing his senses, not his humanity. I think what happened with Skull Knight that resulted in him being cold and inhuman was quite different -- likely the process by which his soul was fused with his current armor.

Maybe he still want to become the king of the world instead of Griffith/Femto? Or maybe he has same dream as Griffith and he's wishing for his own perfect paradise castle and now he want to take it for himself? Maybe he didn't misjudged the effect of his Beherit sword and he actually wanted to bring back his Capital?

I find it hard to believe someone would land on these notions after reading Berserk as much as you seem to have.

Falconia seems like a perfect reincarnation of the Gaiseric Capital. Because it appeared on top of Wyndham, which was build on top of Imperial Capital and Falconia has similar Ancient Greek and Roman architecture as we seen on the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth.

That's because Falconia appears to have been grafted on top of Gaiseric's lost capital, revitalized during the world merging. Remember, Rickert mentions the ancient-yet-super-advanced technology that was found there in Ep 338.

Sage got to his breakdown (maybe he realised that fate is premeditated and he has no power over anything no matter what he does) and he sacrifices his closest friend or pupil or, let's make it dramatic, his lover. And his sacrifice was Flora.

In v24_p084 Guts feel the ache in his Brand and some weird unusual feeling when he was introduced to Flora and he assumes that she was branded too. This one page allows to speculate that it was the Sage/Void who sacrificed her and Gaiseric/Skully saved her (and maybe at that Eclipse he lost his body to the Armor).

No, sorry that's not what Guts guesses about Flora. And you're mistaken about how the brand reacts. Guts gets a sensation with the brand regularly when weird magical shit is going down. The brand is an astral antennea. It reacts specifically to evil by bleeding, and more obliquely to other supernatural phenomena.

It could have just been your regular old cult, led by Void, whose true motivations and allegiances were known only to him.

Now that I think about it, they might actually created the Desired God only 1000 years ago. We know that Idea came after humans and was created by them from the chapter 83. Maybe then Void had a chat with the Idea and he realised what they've created. After that he told Gaiseric to drop this idea of summoning/becoming god which sets him furious and he sends Void to tortures and so on.Maybe after 216 years after the Capital was destroyed, Sage/Void finally dies and he gets into the Abyss and meets his desired God he helped to create which made him the first God Hand. It is a pure speculation of course, but this seems reasonable enough to me.

Who/what would he have summoned? It's entirely possible the incarnation ceremony we saw in Albion was the first of its kind.

I don't have a concrete idea. Maybe that was that 5th angel from the Gaiseric's legend, which was destroyed by Four Kings. Maybe he desired to see God. Maybe he wanted to resurrect someone. Or maybe he actually dived into the astral world himself trying to conquer it or to become the Idea himself (maybe Idea of Evil was a human at some point) and than had to summon himself back to human's world.Last one sounds insane, I know. Skully of course might have just researched his rituals enough in all this years. Can't imagine him reading a book though.

Actually, if we go by what's said in Vol 18, the sage became Void right there in Albion ("an angel descended")

What I meant is that they might interpret a possesion by spirit or a magic summon as an angel descending. Giant fiery image of Flora for example might be seen as angel for an outsider, don't you think so? Church doesn't even accept existence of the magic, so they might called anything magic as an act of god (just like 4-5 angels that destroyed Imperial Capital).By the way, Schierke referred to Four Kings as "four cardinal guardian angels" in v25_p076, so not only God Hand members being called angels. And in v25_p141 someone from the crowd actually asked if it's an angel, while looking at Schierke's possesion by the water spirit. So, where I'm getting at is that Sage's angel might not be a birth of the God Hand, but a magic spirit or a spell instead.

Was the sage bunking with Gaiseric in Elfhelm during this time, because this theory requires Gaiseric's life span to be artificially extended as well, as they both wait around staring at their watches until the clock strikes 864.

Well Skully did said that he's no longer exists within the reason of time, which makes me think that he had to visit Elfhelm or other places with different time flow at some point. And if he really "died" to Berserk Armor only 300 years ago, that makes him over 700 years old human anyway.Maybe they didn't wait 216 years specifically, it's just when the first "temporal junction point" happened (Void's birth) and it launched the cycle after that.

First, I want to remind you of a detail about The Four Kings summon: It only works as a defensive barrier against evil things. It couldn't be used as a weapon in the way you're describing here, unless you have an explanation for it?

Well it seemed pretty offensive to me when Schierke summoned and got possessed by the water spirit. And Rotten Root Lord actually agreed to "reduce the trolls", which seemed more like an attack type of spell rather than defensive one. I don't really have anything concrete, but it's not like we saw all possible magic spells, right?

Wait, huh...? Flora saved the sage from imprisonment by Gaiseric...? Why would she do that and still be able to call herself friends with Gaiseric? Not sure you thought this part through...

Well, Berserk character are able to make mistakes and change their minds, right?Sage/Void might be a leader of the cult trying to create God, but then he realised how much evil it will bring and destroys the Capital, but then after 216 he accepts the fate and causality and becomes God Hand in the end.Flora might have been closer to Void than to Gaiseric, but when Void became Void she joined Gaiseric and stayed with him until he chose that awesome horse over her. It's been 1000 years, after all, it took just a couple of years for Guts and Griffith to become buddies first and then turn to foes.

The "angel" was probably a God Hand member (i.e. Void becoming one). After all, they were first introduced as the "desired guardian angels (or guardian angels of desire)," and the apostles consider them, and call them angels throughout the series.

I don't think "angel" necessarily means God Hand, even though they have been referred as "angel" a number of times. Again, in v25_p076 Schierke described Four Kings as "four cardinal guardian angels written of in your holy scriptures" and she previously described Griffith as an "angel" too, which means term "angel" is used loosely and might mean very different beings.

Well... Guts is in the process of losing his senses, not his humanity. I think what happened with Skull Knight that resulted in him being cold and inhuman was quite different -- likely the process by which his soul was fused with his current armor.

Isn't it goes deeper than just senses? He's loosing his ego as well, among many other things. In v28_p020-021 SK said to never use the Armor at it's fullest if Guts want to continue existing as a human. Which makes me think that if Guts ever go overboard with Berserk he will become just a rage blind soul trapped in the Armor and he will have to have his soul transferred to some other armor like it happened with Gaiseric/Skully presumably.As far as I understand the effects of the Armor it's continuously making a user stronger when he's wearing the Armor, while making him weaker when he's not wearing them, by devouring different parts of his being. For example Guts goes practically blind without the Armor, but with the Armor he has acquired the ability to see in the darkness (v36_ch319).

I find it hard to believe someone would land on these notions after reading Berserk as much as you seem to have.

Why not? Storywise it seems a bit more interesting to me rather than another revenge or anger story. We already have Guts for that, right?Gaiseric obviously was extremely ambitious person and had many similarities with Griffith. Why think that his goals and ambitions only went so far and he dropped them after the Capital fallen and he became Skully?

No, sorry that's not what Guts guesses about Flora. And you're mistaken about how the brand reacts.

You think brand reacted just because Flora was a powerful witch? Now that I think about it I might misinterpret that page, though it makes a layout of the panels a bit weird.

But Flora knew for a fact that God Hand were humans once and about the whole sacrifice ceremony. I don't think a lot of witnesses leaving the ceremony. Unless of course some apostle was willing to share the knowledge, but it seems very strange and unusual. But then again, Daiba was able to dissect the whole monster creation mechanism with his manmade Beherit, so I don't know.

That wouldn't make Schierke "objectively older" than Guts. She'd still be a girl, and he'd still be a man in his 20s.

Why? Subjectively she lived less, but she might been born before Guts (objectively older).For example Rickert is objectively younger than Guts, but if the crew will hang out long enough on the Skellig Island, Rickert might grow older than Guts, even though he was born after him. I might using words "subjectively" and "objectively" wrong, but you get the idea.

This of course works if time in Spirit Tree house flown differently than outside world as well. Which was hinted by the fact she didn't change at all in 50 years and that she knew human Gaiseric, who was still a human at least 300 years ago.

Now that I think about it, they might actually created the Desired God only 1000 years ago. We know that Idea came after humans and was created by them from the chapter 83. Maybe then Void had a chat with the Idea and he realised what they've created. After that he told Gaiseric to drop this idea of summoning/becoming god which sets him furious and he sends Void to tortures and so on.Maybe after 216 years after the Capital was destroyed, Sage/Void finally dies and he gets into the Abyss and meets his desired God he helped to create which made him the first God Hand. It is a pure speculation of course, but this seems reasonable enough to me.

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that Gaiseric was interested in summoning/becoming god. I feel like you're inserting that part just because it's convenient for your theory, not because it has any grounding in evidence.

I don't have a concrete idea. Maybe that was that 5th angel from the Gaiseric's legend, which was destroyed by Four Kings. Maybe he desired to see God. Maybe he wanted to resurrect someone. Or maybe he actually dived into the astral world himself trying to conquer it or to become the Idea himself (maybe Idea of Evil was a human at some point) and than had to summon himself back to human's world.

You've stepped away from proper theorizing into the realm of making stuff up that doesn't mesh with the series.

What I meant is that they might interpret a possesion by spirit or a magic summon as an angel descending. Giant fiery image of Flora for example might be seen as angel for an outsider, don't you think so? Church doesn't even accept existence of the magic, so they might called anything magic as an act of god (just like 4-5 angels that destroyed Imperial Capital).

The Holy See's doctrine as we know it likely didn't exist back then. It's described as a relatively recent phenomenon. And yes, any one can misattribute supernatural phenomena as "angelic," but it makes sense for the terms to be used consistently rather than inconsistently.

By the way, Schierke referred to Four Kings as "four cardinal guardian angels" in v25_p076, so not only God Hand members being called angels. And in v25_p141 someone from the crowd actually asked if it's an angel, while looking at Schierke's possession by the water spirit. So, where I'm getting at is that Sage's angel might not be a birth of the God Hand, but a magic spirit or a spell instead.

What I find strange here is that you're making these events far more convoluted than they need to be. We both accept that the sage likely became Void, so why are you trying to separate the logical course of reasoning about this scene? "When the sage and the angel met in Albion, it wasn't actually a God Hand, but a possession, but yes later the sage became a God Hand!" It feels schizophrenic.

Well Skully did said that he's no longer exists within the reason of time, which makes me think that he had to visit Elfhelm or other places with different time flow at some point.

I don't doubt that he did visit Elfhelm many times in his travels over the past millennium. But what I find unlikely and too convenient with your theory is that both the sage and Gaiseric disappeared from the timeline for 216 years following the destruction of his kingdom. Like I asked before, jokingly, did these two rivals bunk together in Elfhelm?

Well it seemed pretty offensive to me when Schierke summoned and got possessed by the water spirit. And Rotten Root Lord actually agreed to "reduce the trolls", which seemed more like an attack type of spell rather than defensive one. I don't really have anything concrete, but it's not like we saw all possible magic spells, right?

The way the Four Kings summon works and how the other summonings/possessions have worked is different. They're fundamentally different kinds of magic. Note that Schierke isn't possessed during it.

Well, Berserk character are able to make mistakes and change their minds, right?Sage/Void might be a leader of the cult trying to create God, but then he realised how much evil it will bring and destroys the Capital, but then after 216 he accepts the fate and causality and becomes God Hand in the end.Flora might have been closer to Void than to Gaiseric, but when Void became Void she joined Gaiseric and stayed with him until he chose that awesome horse over her. It's been 1000 years, after all, it took just a couple of years for Guts and Griffith to become buddies first and then turn to foes.

I think you're far off course from the actual series at this point. Does anything about Flora and Skull Knight's interactions hint to you of such a thing?

I don't think "angel" necessarily means God Hand, even though they have been referred as "angel" a number of times. Again, in v25_p076 Schierke described Four Kings as "four cardinal guardian angels written of in your holy scriptures" and she previously described Griffith as an "angel" too

I don't think there are degrees to which he can go Berserk, in terms of using the armor. It's always at a razor's edge. He's just had Schierke and the Boy to help bring him back. Otherwise every use case would result in him going Berserk until death by injury or bleeding out. That's how it's described to us in Vol 27

As far as I understand the effects of the Armor it's continuously making a user stronger when he's wearing the Armor, while making him weaker when he's not wearing them, by devouring different parts of his being.

Hmmm, no. I don't think that's how it's described. The armor dulls pain, which helps for Guts in his condition. When it's activated, it nullifies pain. It doesn't heighten senses. I think the enhanced vision he has in the scene you're describing comes from Schierke aiding him.

Why not? Storywise it seems a bit more interesting to me rather than another revenge or anger story. We already have Guts for that, right? Gaiseric obviously was extremely ambitious person and had many similarities with Griffith. Why think that his goals and ambitions only went so far and he dropped them after the Capital fallen and he became Skully?

It doesn't sound likely at all based on everything we know about the Skull Knight.

But Flora knew for a fact that God Hand were humans once and about the whole sacrifice ceremony. I don't think a lot of witnesses leaving the ceremony. Unless of course some apostle was willing to share the knowledge, but it seems very strange and unusual. But then again, Daiba was able to dissect the whole monster creation mechanism with his manmade Beherit, so I don't know.

She knew because she was boning Void! She knew Gaiseric, who likely knew about Void's past. Isn't that enough?

Why? Subjectively she lived less, but she might been born before Guts (objectively older).

In your hypothetical where Schierke was raised in a pocket of time, the fact that time traveled faster around her is unrelated to her actual age. Taken another way, if I was born in 2000 but at age 12 time-traveled until the year 3000, emerging as a 12-year-old, would I really be "older" than anyone there? Maybe for the purposes of a joke, but not in any practical sense that's worth considering.

This of course works if time in Spirit Tree house flown differently than outside world as well. Which was hinted by the fact she didn't change at all in 50 years and that she knew human Gaiseric, who was still a human at least 300 years ago.

It's not a foregone conclusion that's the case. Flora could have retained her youth because she's a magic user. We discussed this quite a bit in recent months.

But, for example, the Incarnation Ceremony, "that occur every millennia", well, why tell that, if is the first time?If there is a cyclical GH, is probably the Ceremony where every 5th member regain his fisical form.

Logged

May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy their fate be granted glory.

This is an old argument that we've had here on this forum since its inception. There have probably been 100 threads on the matter, at least. So yeah, I'm familiar with your perspective here. But I'm asking: Where are they in the story? Where are the hints, clues, allusions, ciphers, that there were ever any God Hand members dating before 1,000 years ago? And if you believe that the events are cyclical in this regard, then was Gaiseric a direct parallel to Griffith, thus a member of the God Hand?

Quote

But, for example, the Incarnation Ceremony, "that occur every millennia", well, why tell that, if is the first time?

It says once in 1000 years. There is nothing in the wording that suggests it has happened before.

And if you believe that the events are cyclical in this regard, then was Gaiseric a direct parallel to Griffith, thus a member of the God Hand?

Yes.The previous 5th.Screwed by the new First [Void]

The fact than Falconia arise from the ruins of Midland is a +1 for the Cyclic Theory.For me, of course.

Quote

Where are the hints, clues, allusions, ciphers, that there were ever any God Hand members dating before 1,000 years ago?

Well, we know there were at least 4 angel at the time of the Fal of Midland, and yes, one of them can be Void, but not Ubik, Slan, and Conrad, because of the 216 years span.Of course, like I said, it can be like jackson_hurley said.It's just a Theory after all, nothing more.

Logged

May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy their fate be granted glory.

The fact than Falconia arise from the ruins of Midland is a +1 for the Cyclic Theory.For me, of course.

We already know that certain events in Berserk's history are somewhat spiral (note, not cyclical) because of Flora's line in Vol 26. But that doesn't mean we can (or should) lay everything at the feet of the spiral.

Right now there's no evidence of a previous God Hand. It's simply a theory that people use to explain the 4/5 angels bit. But it doesn't quite mesh with the rest of the series, as we know it. For example: Did the Idea of Evil really fuck up that badly to have lost 4 of its avatars at once? What could have wiped out 4 God Hand members that SK hasn't recreated multiple times in the ensuing years for the current God Hand?

We know that certain events 1,000 years ago are very similar to what happened recently, only now, it's my belief that the Idea of Evil has instituted more control over the world through its minions. Under this theory, the God Hand are a newer creation so that the IoE can achieve a more direct result than what happened 1,000 years ago, when things clearly fell apart — assuring its victory through "God's Hand." I'd even go as far as saying that I think that the parallels of Griffith and Guts to Gaiseric/SK are part of the Idea of Evil's pattern so that it can mirror events of 1,000 years ago, to achieve its own ends, only this time with a demonic safety net.

Quote

Well, we know there were at least 4 angel at the time of the Fal of Midland,

They were described in oral legend as "4/5 angels," but as we've said a few times here, that could be interpreted as a few different things.

Of course, like I said, it can be like jackson_hurley said.It's just a Theory after all, nothing more.

I just want to precise here that it's not my theory, only that I'm inclining toward that theorie. (Just in case, I don't want to have credit for a theorie that I did not come up with)

That said, if there was a "first cycle" (which I don't think so, I did think about that a few years back) These members must have been not so strong. As Walter said, it's kinda hard to get rid of one member... I think 4 in a shot would be impossible. Unless there is some very very strong entity or spirit that could do that deal but I don't see that scenario being possible.

I just want to precise here that it's not my theory, only that I'm inclining toward that theorie. (Just in case, I don't want to have credit for a theorie that I did not come up with)

That said, if there was a "first cycle" (which I don't think so, I did think about that a few years back) These members must have been not so strong. As Walter said, it's kinda hard to get rid of one member... I think 4 in a shot would be impossible. Unless there is some very very strong entity or spirit that could do that deal but I don't see that scenario being possible.

Well, if the GH is cyclical, the "changing of the guard" is not merely the defaut of the old GH, is an...event, like the Eclipse, or the Incarnation Cerimony, something written in the flow of causality, something that Idea want.

Maybe the old member simply go into the Abyss [the vortex] after the birth of the new first.Maybe something else.Also, they don't necessarily know about their destiny.About them being disposable.

Quote

and you pointed to something that can't be confirmed as God Hand members.

And that is why is called "Theory"

Logged

May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy their fate be granted glory.

I can rephrase: I was asking for any evidence to support your theory, and you gave me a theory.

I guess when it comes down to it, for me, an illustration of angels, and an oral legend handed down for 1,000 years is not enough to suggest that there were another 4-5 God Hand members that have never otherwise been hinted at or mentioned throughout the series' 25 years. But for you, that illustration and text is enough.

I can rephrase: I was asking for any evidence to support your theory, and you gave me a theory.

I guess when it comes down to it, for me, an illustration of angels, and an oral legend handed down for 1,000 years is not enough to suggest that there were another 4-5 God Hand members that have never otherwise been hinted at or mentioned throughout the series' 25 years. But for you, that illustration and text is enough.

Well, yes, for me, that illustration+text is enough.Cause I don't think is some random story that Miura liked to add just for the shake of it, but something more.

But it's just me, of course.

Logged

May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy their fate be granted glory.

Well, yes, for me, that illustration+text is enough.Cause I don't think is some random story that Miura liked to add just for the shake of it, but something more.

Well, I'm not saying there isn't more to it. I mean... I certainly don't think they were actual angels I just think extrapolating that into a previous cycle of God Hand is a stretch, given the evidence we have.

I really enjoyed reading through this thread, and although I find RaffoBaffo's theory interesting, especially the "changing of guards" bit, there is, in my opinion, a slight problem with it :

I quite agree with Walter saying that the God Hands may be a new "tool" used by the IoE to achieve its goals more easily, a "secret weapon" it didn't have 1000 years ago.

If there were, indeed, previous God Hands, I can't imagine why the IoE would suddenly decide to wipe out its creations, supremely powerful demonic beings, just for the sake of it, "it's been a long time, I'm gonna start all over again".

Only an unforgivable weakness or mistake could explain that kind of behavior, something not supported in the story so far.

pav327

Him needing a crutch to accomplish his human-world feats makes him a bigger schemer? Why?

I mean wouldn't it require much more strategy and cunningness if he hadn't Berserk Armor at his disposal? He apparently won over even bigger wars and battles than Griffith and look how clever and strategic Griffith had to be.Also, it's a bit strange for a king to actually fight the battles himself. And not just being present on a battlefield but earn himself names like "Demon King" and "King of Galloping Death". Of course he could just been awesome, but it fits pretty well for him to have the Berserk Armor from the very beginning of his story.

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that Gaiseric was interested in summoning/becoming god.

Why? He strived for taking the control over every land and nation around, we don't really know where he wanted to stop. It's very much possible that he was going for something even bigger like controlling the fate of all humans, like the Idea of Evil controls it. In the end he was "punished" for his greed and sins in the legend.

We both accept that the sage likely became Void, so why are you trying to separate the logical course of reasoning about this scene?

Because I don't think that Void became God Hand at the same time the Capital was destroyed nor do I think him becoming God Hand was the reason for the destruction of the Capital. I think I've already explained why it doesn't make sense to me. I think Void prevented Gaiseric from doing whatever he wanted to do with that brand of sacrifice cult Void was running under Gaiseric command. Void failed to talk sense into him and got sended to Albion. Then he destroys the Capital. But in the end he becomes a major part of what he tried to stop, because fate is ironic. It's not much more schizophrenic then Griffith's swings in his wishes and actions.

You're a bit too quick to discard all math, logistic and logic mismatches, and write it off as "it's just a legend that was retold many times and distorted as a result", when it all could make sense. I sure might go overboard with doing the opposite, but that's the point of speculating.

Another idea that I'm open to is that the presumed cult of the brand, could been a secret work of Voids, which goal was a creation of the desired god. Later he was exposed and sended to tortures. But the cult was already able to successfully conceive the Idea. That descended angel might have been an egg or an embryo of the Idea that was nurtured by Void's suffering because of tortures. In order to "grow up" it needed a major dose of negative emotions, which was provided by Void destroying the Capital. But this specularion renders Gaiseric as just an incidental victim of what's been going on behind his back, which seems not as interesting. Though this would actually make a better sense with Zodd's remark about Gaiseric/SK being opposed apostles/GH for a millennium, since he opposed the presumed cult. After 216 years Void (still as a human) performs a ritual in which he puts the Brand on someone he loved and sacrifice her/him by murdering them. Maybe some ritualistic cannibalism was involved as well. This allowed him to reach out to the Idea and it made him the first God Hand.

Like I asked before, jokingly, did these two rivals bunk together in Elfhelm?

Well, if Flora was able to live at least 300 years (probably more than that), then Sage could do it too somehow if he was a mage. And he doesn't necessarily had to go to Elfhelm. Maybe he hangout with Flora in her Spirit Tree house to restore his body and soul after tortures. And to bone her.And I allow myself to think that if time flow distortion is a thing in the Berserk universe, than it might not be unique to Skellig Island only.

The way the Four Kings summon works and how the other summonings/possessions have worked is different. They're fundamentally different kinds of magic. Note that Schierke isn't possessed during it.

What I'm getting at is that I don't see a reason why a mage couldn't ask Kings to attack. It'd be kind of sad if all Four Kings are good for is a barrier that even beginner like Farnese could cast. Aren't they supposed to be the most powerful astral beings?As far as I understand how magic spells work in the Berserk, mage or witch deals a some kind of contract with an astral being. The more witch ask, the more ego the astral being is able to manifest in human world and the higher risk for the witch to lose her own ego in the astral. Apparently it doesn't take too much of ego power for Four Kings to stand there like an assholes. But it doesn't mean the witch can't ask them for something more. It seems to me that Schierke asked for help water spirit and wheel of flame instead of Ve and Gedula because she could handle them. Daiba was able to control Kundalini, which was about as powerful as astral gods, right?What I'm trying to say is that Sage might been powerful enough to ask Four King to actually deal some damage.

No, not really. It's slowly killing him, yes. But he's not "losing his ego," unless you're referring to the Beast of Darkness, which was a preexisting issue with Guts, before he acquired the armor.

Isn't Armor just takes the form of the Beast? Anyway SK needed Flora for same reason Guts needs Schierke, so I'm pretty sure Armor affect mental health as well. And the talisman that Flora applied on the Armor was to specifically protect his ego - v27_p049. I'm not sure if Flora or SK knew about Guts's mental issues to do it specifically for his personal Beast. And it seems logical for the Armor itself to want the user to lose himself in a rage so it could "devour" him.

Hmmm, no. I don't think that's how it's described. The armor dulls pain, which helps for Guts in his condition. When it's activated, it nullifies pain. It doesn't heighten senses. I think the enhanced vision he has in the scene you're describing comes from Schierke aiding him

I guess the night vision might indeed be Schierke's aid, but she might just uncover his eye and improved vision came from the Armor. I don't remember if she mentioned anything about her aiding his vision. But the point is that we know for a fact that the Berserk Armor is getting stronger and we see that Guts (without it) is falling apart. In v36_c316 Schierke confirms that the armor's power has grown and at this point she can't invade inside it when it's already active. And couple episode later she again mentions that it's power is increased. So it looks to me that the Armor is feeding of what Guts is losing. I don't think it's only an anesthetic.It might also be that the talisman that Flora applied is just getting "regenerated away" from the armor.

It doesn't sound likely at all based on everything we know about the Skull Knight.

I don't know, he obviously had the wish and desire for becoming the king he was. Is it too crazy to think that he might not dropped that seem to be a dream of his after his Empire collapsed? His Empire was taken away from him, unless he given up on it himself. Now his Imperial Capital got sort of reincarnated (with his "help"), why forbid the thought that it might be what he was going for (especially if he has some sort of ability to peek through future and past events)? And he need Guts to eliminate the current king if that's the case.

SK doesn't seem to be thirsty for apostle blood. So it's not all about being foe to all inhumans as he says, he doesn't express anger, hatred or excessive will to kill towards apostles. He's way more methodical and planned out.

I don't think Void is the first ever God Hand.I thing is the first ot this cycle.I thing the God Hand is cyclical.

It's a cool idea and I though about this as well, this would make the Idea of Evil even more massive and fundamental thing. But it doesn't sit right with me for a number of reasons. It would also make current God Hand and Griffith feel not that important in general.

I thought that Gaiseric was exactly what Griffith is now, but he failed or refused to bring the age of darkness (as Slan said it is what Griffith will start). And after everything went down brands from the previous cycle became inactive and all previous God Hands and apostle became just usual humans. But over time I came down to thinking that Gaiseric was such a badass because he had the Berserk Armor. Idea was created only 1000 years by the Brand cult that was going on in the Capital. And there was a point when there were no apostles at all.

I sure still think that Idea of Evil might be destroyed or replaced by a different Idea though.

Cause is Void is the first, how can we explain the 4/5 Angels in the legend of Gaiseric?

Four Kings of the World. Schierke described them as "four cardinal guardian angels written of in your holy scriptures" while talking to priest. Those scriptures might include Gaiseric's legend as well. Also, destruction of the Capital was described as "lightings and earthquakes" not "flesh eating monsters and weird creepy shit".

pav327

Well, yes, at the end of the day they're pawns on the chessboard of Idea.Powerfull/very important pawns, but still pawns.

Well what you happened to the previous God Hand? And with the one even before that? Have they all failed? Or succeeded? Should we even worry about whatever God Hand's final goal is if in the end it won't matter at all after many years?

I think it's a human-made brands. Since they're at the same place, does not attract evil spirits and bodies haven't been eaten or dragged to hell. I wrote above that I think there was a cult of the brand going on and they desired for god. And they actually were the ones who created the Idea of Evil. After all we know that Idea was created by humans from episode 83, and it'd be nice to have it's creation within the actual story, don't you think?

Well what you happened to the previous God Hand? And with the one even before that? Have they all failed? Or succeeded? Should we even worry about whatever God Hand's final goal is if in the end it won't matter at all after many years?

Maybe they suceeded, an they were dismissed.Meybe the Age of Darkness is cyclical as well.Maybe the goal of Idea is maintain this infinite cycle of Dark and Golden Ages.Why?I don't know.The will of Idea is the will of the mankind, maybe they want to be happy, but suffer at the same time.[To much speculation, i know, but I love it ]