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Re: Confederate Flag

Originally Posted by HorseLoverGirl

Then why did Grant own slaves? Even if he freed his his wife had no intention of doing that. If the north was so anti slavery, then why were escaped slaves captured and returned under the Fugitive Slave Act? Also is it that hard for you to understand that the yankees were the ones who had the votes in Congress? The South was pretty much bullied until they couldn't take it anymore. And contrary to myth, Lincoln had no intention of freeing slaves. None. All he wanted was to keep the South from exercising their right to secede whether slavery existed or not.

What? Grant owned a single slave, William Jones, from his father in law Colonel Dent. He freed his slave in 1859. This is an irrelevancy. Furthermore, Grant was one of the most aggressive supporters of the post-war Civil Rights cause.

As for the Fugitive Slave Act... because it was the law? Though there was a strong faction committed to overturning the law the fear of a national split over the issue prevented any further moves.

And votes in Congress, lol, the South wasn't and isn't a nation. This is like claiming that Wyoming is being bullied because it doesn't have as many representatives as California. Welcome to a Representative Democracy.

Lincoln was committed to the abolition of slavery before he even took office. Lincoln was certainly a moderate within the Republican Party but he nevertheless had a clear position and plan which he outlined at the Republican National Convention where he called for the immediate halt to the expansion of slavery and the creation of a system of monetary compensation to slave owners in order to begin the gradual process of abolition. On the fundamental difference between North and South Lincoln stated on numerous occasions that "You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted".

As President, Lincoln consistently differentiated between what he termed "my view of official duty" which took the form of doing nearly anything he could to prevent his country from falling apart. However he never wavered in his belief that slavery was wrong and that it ought to be abolished.

To the point "I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel this way."

Re: Confederate Flag

Originally Posted by digitusmedius

It should be removed/prohibited from display on any public space at all levels of government. Private display would have to be allowed. I personally am happy to have moron racists identify themselves. This BS that it's just like the US flag (coming from the very people who support the confederate symbol of treason and slavery) is weak beyond belief. It was under that US flag that slavery was abolished in this country. Yes, atrocities have occurred and in the name of what that flag is supposed to represent (the most recent have been the Iraq War and torture) but by fits and starts we try to correct and get back to first principles of the founding of this country (in that typical hypocrisy of the extreme rightwing, most of the people who find the rebel flag an inspiration are also the most likely to lead us into committing those atrocities and perversions under the US flag). The rebel symbol of slavery and brutality differs entirely because its proponents will never admit they're wrong about anything it represented 150 years ago and still does today. Consider this: the KKK wants to hold a rally on the SC capitol grounds this week to "celebrate" that flag. Now, please, try to tell us that that flag doesn't represent slavery again. The laugh will do us good.

How many slave ships flew any Southern flag? Yeah that's what I thought.

Re: Confederate Flag

Originally Posted by HorseLoverGirl

Revisionist history strikes again. The main reason for the War for Southern Independence was the north had way too much power and was pretty much pushing the South around, and the South, as you might expect, did not like that. Later, when the yankees realized it was do or die time, because Europe was fixing to help the South, then they made it all about slavery. Deny it all you want to but that is what really happened

No. It was entirely about slavery. It was about economics, the economics of an agricultural system underpinned by slavery. It was about politics, the politics of slavery. It was about states rights, the states right to protect slavery. It was about the imbalance of political power, between slave states and free states. Every single issue that is drawn up to deflect away from slavery is itself invariably rooted in the issue of slavery.

Re: Confederate Flag

Originally Posted by Sherman123

No. It was entirely about slavery. It was about economics, the economics of an agricultural system underpinned by slavery. It was about politics, the politics of slavery. It was about states rights, the states right to protect slavery. It was about the imbalance of political power, between slave states and free states. Every single issue that is drawn up to deflect away from slavery is itself invariably rooted in the issue of slavery.

No matter how many times this is repeated that it was entirely about slavery - it doesn't make it true.

What IS true is that slavery was involved in all of the reasons of the Civil War - that is true. However, the war itself was not as you say all about slavery at the time. Yes the abolitionist movement, the Dredd Scott case, all underpinnings but the actual causes of the war were not all about nor only about slavery. I forgot who used the word in a different thread but they used the word, "nexus" as in, slavery was the nexus of the war - and that was probably the most accurate description as nexus means a "connection or tie".

Re: Confederate Flag

Originally Posted by Cryptic

No, not per se. Rather, it can be depending on the context that is being used. Today, that context is usually regional pride and / or pride in the miltiary accomplishments of the CSA (lost the war, while winning or drawing most battles).

So basically you are trying to ignore history and say that the Confederate flag is not offensive because it is just a regional mascot. Which that would be easy for certain residents in the Southern States. For others though it isnt that easy to forget what the Confederate flag stood for historically.

This burying ones head in the sand attitude that people have about the Confederate flag is a amazing phenomena of denial. You want people to just close their history books and ignore that the main point of the Civil War was slavery of an entire race. Could a Jew ignore Nazi history and be ok with a Nazi flag because it represents the history of Germany? Nazi Germany fought a very formidable war. The comparison may sound wild but then I have been told by skin heads that they have swastika tattoos to show off their heritage.

My family is from Alabama (My grandpa, Dad and many other family members are buried in Cullman) I do understand the regional affiliation with the Confederate flag. But that affiliation isnt a benign thing for most white Southerners. Recently country music has exploited the flag along with so called redneck pride. Personally I think that they are a lot of ignorant people that dont know their American history. It is important to know the history of the Civil War so that we do not repeat such bad part of American history. I am not advocating for banishing any flag owned or flown by individuals or groups, just certain flags from government property (unless if they are flown in a legitimate museum of some sort, not the walkway front and center to a State building).

Re: Confederate Flag

Originally Posted by Ockham

No matter how many times this is repeated that it was entirely about slavery - it doesn't make it true.

What IS true is that slavery was involved in all of the reasons of the Civil War - that is true. However, the war itself was not as you say all about slavery at the time. Yes the abolitionist movement, the Dredd Scott case, all underpinnings but the actual causes of the war were not all about nor only about slavery. I forgot who used the word in a different thread but they used the word, "nexus" as in, slavery was the nexus of the war - and that was probably the most accurate description as nexus means a "connection or tie".

Which is a euphemism of saying that slavery was the cause of the war. Absent slavery there would have been no secession and no conflict.

Re: Confederate Flag

Originally Posted by Ockham

No matter how many times this is repeated that it was entirely about slavery - it doesn't make it true.

What IS true is that slavery was involved in all of the reasons of the Civil War - that is true. However, the war itself was not as you say all about slavery at the time. Yes the abolitionist movement, the Dredd Scott case, all underpinnings but the actual causes of the war were not all about nor only about slavery. I forgot who used the word in a different thread but they used the word, "nexus" as in, slavery was the nexus of the war - and that was probably the most accurate description as nexus means a "connection or tie".

No, just saying it doesn't make it true. Reading the secession declarations of those states does, though. It's either the only or the first item of their specific reason for seceding....i.e., the threat of the abolition of slavery.