So don't try to tell me there's no such thing, or that it's a communist plot. Do the math yourself. Climate change exists.

--Rob Kelk

Since it's an election year in the USA: How to Immigrate to Canada, direct from the Government of Canada's website. "How you can immigrate to Canada, how to protect yourself from fraud and what to expect after you arrive in Canada."

Ah, c'mon, Rob. You know the kind of people who buy into the anti-climate-change propaganda are generally the same people who think balancing their checkbook is higher math.

-- Bob
I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh, Clark Kent, Mary Sue, DJ Croft, Skysaber. I have been
called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the sun grows dim and cold....

Even all these carbon taxes and shit are proving to be nothing more than a way of making the people who can't afford to make the 'energy efficient' upgrades, pay for those who can

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

Is that Land Area? Drop a blop of icecream on the ground in the sun and watch how it spreads out.

Edit:

Actually reading the article suggests something more complex is going on. The rate of loss is related to the local sea water temperature. If it's warm, the ice flows. If it's colder, the ice slows. On average - if the water's going to be warmer that ice is going to start shifting.

Which means if my calculations are correct, we're still all doomed.... Hah!....oh....

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

And this is why we keep annoying our politicians to enforce some decent behavior from big business. Not that it ever seems to go anywhere. CEOs gonna CEO, and who cares if the world burns? They die with trillions of dollars, so fuck the rest of us!

(04-12-2019, 01:06 PM)Bob Schroeck Wrote: Ah, c'mon, Rob. You know the kind of people who buy into the anti-climate-change propaganda are generally the same people who think balancing their checkbook is higher math.

Then their grade-school teachers did them no favours. This is not an excuse.

(04-13-2019, 08:10 AM)Matrix Dragon Wrote: And this is why we keep annoying our politicians to enforce some decent behavior from big business. Not that it ever seems to go anywhere. CEOs gonna CEO, and who cares if the world burns? They die with trillions of dollars, so fuck the rest of us!

He who dies with the most toys is still dead. This is not an excuse either.

--Rob Kelk

Since it's an election year in the USA: How to Immigrate to Canada, direct from the Government of Canada's website. "How you can immigrate to Canada, how to protect yourself from fraud and what to expect after you arrive in Canada."

Since it's an election year in the USA: How to Immigrate to Canada, direct from the Government of Canada's website. "How you can immigrate to Canada, how to protect yourself from fraud and what to expect after you arrive in Canada."

"They did not care about all the other attempts wizards had made on the Lone Power through history; as far as a computer is concerned, there is no program that cannot be debugged, or at worst, rewritten."
-Diane Duane, High Wizardry

"If our friendship depends on things like space and time, we've destroyed our own brotherhood! But overcome space, and all we have left is Here. Overcome time, and all we have left is Now. And in the middle of Here and Now, don't you think that we might see each other once or twice?"
-Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull

Quote:Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. Characteristics central to capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor, voluntary exchange, a price system, and competitive markets.

It's that "capital accumulation" part that I think is the issue - as long as capitalism is about things instead of about social structures, it's going to have that "most toys wins" flaw that drives people to make things that we don't need and the planet can't support.

--Rob Kelk

Since it's an election year in the USA: How to Immigrate to Canada, direct from the Government of Canada's website. "How you can immigrate to Canada, how to protect yourself from fraud and what to expect after you arrive in Canada."

The market operates in a positive feedback cycle. Money makes Money. No money makes less money.

Like a diesel engine running on its own oil, or a nuclear reactor that some mong took the control rods out of.

Positive feedback is bad. It either very quickly runs into a physical limit of the system where it pegs. Or ir just sort of explodes. Either one results in a system not doing what it's supposed to.

Admitting that the market and raw capital needs some form of governance does not make one a communist. It's simple reality. Negative feedback from some form or another is required to stabilise the system and keep it under control and working. Otherwise it breaks down.

Anyway, it seems that the difference between capitalist and 'communist' systems is academic at this point.
One shoots you in the back of the neck for the good of the people. One just sort of stands there and allows you to die, reassuring you it's your own fault for not being able to afford healthcare/food etc. The net result is the same.

In one system, things are the worst people can possibly tolerate. In the other, it's the same. Either are based on painting the rust and hoping nobody notices.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

(04-14-2019, 10:48 AM)Rajvik Wrote: I wasn't speaking to you and your slow and frustrating walk of indoctrination

Ah, so all scientific education is indoctrination to you?

Because I'm not indoctrinating anyone. I'm asking you questions. All I want to do is pin down the part where your understanding of physics and that of the vast majority of trained physicists and climatalogists disagree. How are we supposed to resolve who is correct until we know precisely where we disagree?

I'm perfectly willing to be convinced to your side of the argument, Rajvik. Unlike you, I start this conversation saying that I am open to dialogue rather than merely interested in spreading my factions propaganda. But unless we can work out where that fundamental disagreement occurs, how will we work out which of us is correct?

The Jacobshavn glacier (the Greenland glacier article) is growing because of normal climate variation. The North Atlantic Oscillation switches back and forth from warmer to cooler temperatures much like the Pacific El Nino/La Nina. Guess what, it's shifted colder. That will last maybe a few years, then it'll switch back to warming/melting. This is a temporary speedbump.

Did somebody mentioned the Jacobshavn glacier without understanding the North Atlantic Oscillation? <sigh> The NAO's 5-to-20 year cycle doesn't explain this particular 10,000 year peak.

Also, regional variation. Citing Jacobshavn as a counterexample is like saying Hurricane Katrina didn't exist because Pensacola was never hit by it. People in New Orleans could point out the logical fallacy there.

Since it's an election year in the USA: How to Immigrate to Canada, direct from the Government of Canada's website. "How you can immigrate to Canada, how to protect yourself from fraud and what to expect after you arrive in Canada."

"They did not care about all the other attempts wizards had made on the Lone Power through history; as far as a computer is concerned, there is no program that cannot be debugged, or at worst, rewritten."
-Diane Duane, High Wizardry

"If our friendship depends on things like space and time, we've destroyed our own brotherhood! But overcome space, and all we have left is Here. Overcome time, and all we have left is Now. And in the middle of Here and Now, don't you think that we might see each other once or twice?"
-Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull

One thing that legitimately bugs me is how people are of Rajvik's mindset; that even putting solar panels on their house is a non-starter. Nevermind that even if you don't accept the subsidies for doing that, the money you save from not having to pay an electric bill pays for them within a few years.

"They did not care about all the other attempts wizards had made on the Lone Power through history; as far as a computer is concerned, there is no program that cannot be debugged, or at worst, rewritten."
-Diane Duane, High Wizardry

"If our friendship depends on things like space and time, we've destroyed our own brotherhood! But overcome space, and all we have left is Here. Overcome time, and all we have left is Now. And in the middle of Here and Now, don't you think that we might see each other once or twice?"
-Richard Bach, Jonathan Livingston Seagull

"A few years" is more like 15 years for repayment, but costs are going down down down. The real tipping point is when they start making solar roof tiles. Meanwhile coal keeps getting more expensive, and will do so more as the market for it contracts. Even if you ignore carbon taxes, business incentives, etc, it turns out that solar and wind energy are cheaper to produce. And in less than 5 years, chemical batteries will be cheaper than nat gas peaker plants. Everything is coming up Milhouse.

Well, except for the people who have already lost their lives or homes from climate change. Or the fact that we're kinda too late. I got to see my city's coastal retreat plan today, about how we plan to lose a few meters of beach to the ocean in an orderly manner. It would have helped the beach if the Matilija Dam had been demolished by now. But just because everyone agrees that removing it is a good idea, doesn't mean we have the funding to remove it.

BA, you are incorrect there, at least where I am concerned. The only reason I don't have solar panels right now is because we will be replacing this house within a few years and we are saving the money for doing that with the new house. That said, supposed global warming is not why we will do it but the redundancy of a solar backup for when a hurricane knocks out our power again and the reduction in our power bills.

Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent.
Currently writing BROBd