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Ok just something I thought I would comment on, now its been what 2 days that Ive been posting again since about a month and half of productive offline time (heh productivity speeds up when offline trust me! ) and people have been pledging complaints about the board getting seriously lame with the usual kind of questions by "Newbie Lamers" (eg. How do I hack windows?).

Now my point is as follows, what the fuck are you guys on about? When I took my "productivity" break 2 months ago the board was lame through my eyes, with the majority of posts being flames or some other shit related to that.

Now I have been seriously analyzing the boards post and what I have found is serious "interlect", I am fucking amazed at what kind of posts I have found.

First a perfect example of a interlectual post which I thouroughly enjoyed reading through is this one about writing windows exploits.

Fucking productive post! on top of that very educating to the less educated on that field! Bravo, /me lifts up hat!

Secondly, the Unix Security forum has some very interesting points of discussion, one which I read was about the poll Giz did, some of the argueable points made there are brilleant, some very open opinions were made there. Again just from reading some of the larger replies there you can gather some very good knowledge of what to look out for when securing a *nix system.

The VB section, not that there is an amazing amount of posts there, but I posted a question about DHCP mode detection and it was answered (SR actually did work that I should have done myself to find the answer) within 2 hours, tell me of other board where someone will answer your question in 2 hours?

Besides the News is regularly updated, which by the way if you have not noticed should be the main objective of the site, hence the name UndergroundNEWS.

Ok the IRC is highly lets say, counterproductive and we basically at most times screw around in there but then what is chatting for? I dont know of many irc groups that actually talk about their portraied subject atleast 10% of the time, well actually i do know a couple but they are linux related.

Then these posts about "Im taking someones advice and getting the hell out of here" well sorry but that shows your maturity to the rest of the team doesnt it? Cause if you were to leave you would leave silently and without having to make it public and Giz is right making it public is the breed of three types of responses!

1st: Someone will most likely start being an ass and come out with what they exactly wanted to say about what was going on their nerves which in turn creates more shit.

2nd: Someone will start dishing the board and its members advertising themselves to get attention cause normaly they are ignored or what ever the fuck.

3rd: A war will start between supporters of the board and then Giz is gonna get all pissed at how imature his visitors really are and then more lets say "neutral" members will realize that we are overcrowded by a load of 13 year old script kiddies that want to imitate "Hackers the Movie".

Another point is the "Banners" well what do you expect do you think that bandwidth, hosting and server maintance is free these days? Ok, I know that a few people have made donations and hats off to those people, but dont complain about banners, u go to Blackcode.com and see what kind of advertizing they have or Cyberarmy(i think they used to have ads or still do) and so on.

Let me remind me of something my father always told me "There is no such thing as a free lunch"

Now allthough ive had my bad times here too, ive been here since the beginning of the site, thats before the majority of you guys even started using a computer I bet. And I personally feel very strong about its uphold and I already talked to Giz and I am 100% behind keeping UGN up and running, no matter what we have to do to keep it up we will succeed!

But common if we stick together we will keep the place a nicer and more enjoyable place for everyone that comes here.

And a piece of advice, if someone makes stupid "How do I hack windows/hotmail" what ever the fuck questions, why not try to ignore them, remove the post and PM the user about his mistakes!

Noone is perfect least of all the Human breed, but think about what your point really is and if it is to get attention then get attention in some other way. There was once written a very good article by one of the hacker "Mentors" one of the Gods of hacking / cracking! And it mentioned a point which i think alot of people will relate to, and that is that alot of people will have their secret online life because they cannot have it in the real world, well wake up if you want to be recognized or looked up too, which is receiving attention, then do it wisely and not imaturely!

Also look at some other larger boards - see what kind of posts are on blackcode.com or hack3r.com or the old soldier-x.com, then compare the two boards and state your opinion on where you rather be!

Ive made my choice a long time ago even when times were alot shitter than this!

I think I have stated my point and flame me, root me, what ever you wish to do, but this is my opinion and I think and hope that it is shared by many others!

<>

The use of "hacker" to mean "security breaker" is a confusion on the part of the mass media. We hackers refuse to recognize that meaning, and continue using the word to mean, "Someone who loves to program and enjoys being clever about it."--------------------"Its not a bug, its a feature" (Epic Games)

See, now people like psy, who have been here since the beginning I totally value, theive been with UGN forever. hell I've been with UGN forever, since it started, the original magenta and green design (trust me, you could tell beard was a mexican)... Then the transition to Java applets on the whole site, then finally working its way to present.

Everything changes, in fact I'm working on getting a rough sketch down for the new UGN, thats why the current isn't all back up because its all going to be replaced (except the board, don't worry) anyway.

I just want to say "as a newbie" that I have gained more knowledge from UGN than all other research done by my part. I have only been here for a little over six months, but I cant figure out what the complaining is about. Hats off to Gizmo and the crew!

wareagle, i love ugn just as much as the next guy, but i find it sad that you've learned more here than on your own. you must not have been trying to hard. sure theres lots to learn on the board and the text files, but i must agree with scallion and some of the others that much of what goes on here isn't always helpful. that isn't a bad thing, i'm the first to admit that half my posts aren't asking or answering a question. theres nothing wrong with having fun on the board. maybe you should try searching a lil harder, just my opinion

First of all neither one of you know nothing about my efforts in learning. I didnt mean to make one comment to take light off the topic either. I guess I stated it in the wrong text, but I was just trying to give a compliment to UGN.Is always being critical makes you feel better...then buy all means keep going what your doing.

Originally posted by BackSlash:wareagle, i love ugn just as much as the next guy, but i find it sad that you've learned more here than on your own. you must not have been trying to hard. sure theres lots to learn on the board and the text files, but i must agree with scallion and some of the others that much of what goes on here isn't always helpful. that isn't a bad thing, i'm the first to admit that half my posts aren't asking or answering a question. theres nothing wrong with having fun on the board. maybe you should try searching a lil harder, just my opinion

I just wana say... If you make pointless posts you have no reason to bitch about how the site is.

UGN is you. Plain and simple. I own my own board so I have some clue on what I say here. Whoever says UGN needs to change... Well if posts or texts are what you are talking about.. Then you should start with you. Just 1 awsome member makes all the difference on a board.

If you want more knowledge passed around on here, the start passing, asking, and reading.

If you want tuts. Write one. I've done it a few times. Any community is only as good as it's members.

BTW this is also the true path to being recognised as a good member. You come on here posting useless crap and have thousands of posts thats what you are known for.

If you offer something back you will become known for you helpfullness. Answer lots of questions people will start to say you know your stuff.

Simpley put if you wana start changing UGN.... The best and easiest way to change is within yourself.

Some of you guys who have been with UGN since beard owned it should be stepping up. You should't be total newbies anymore. Not saying you are, but the useless posts should have tappered off. Just a thought.

i think UGN is what we make of it not all of gizmos responsibility... he aint our bitch and we dont need to take advantage of him and blame him for shit we can help ourselves... him being the admin dosent mean you should pressure him w/ bullshit. If we keep complaining we can make it the worst and sadest excuse for a board, but if we look and the bright side and see what each of us individually can do to help... it can comtinue being a great source or even better. hmm... i fell all warm inside, this aint normal for me

1. UGN maybe needs a new design which Gizmo has hinted at and sScallion is openly working on.2. This, coupled with new content will help UGN.3. There is a lot of good information on this board.4. There is even more joking around and general off-topic stuff.5. New content would probably end all this griping and pose a new option for people to look at other than the board.

1) The design is fine, doesn't matter a wit to me as long as it looks nice.2) The kbase could stand to have newer content - but the old content doesn't have to go.3) The only thing I may consider a problem is that we don't have enough knowledgeable users in enough areas. The programming forums practically rot cause only a precious few codes.4) Another minor thing which I am guilty of as well - is that those who ARE knowledgeable just waits for people to ask questions to spread the love. They don't volunteer with lectures and stuff. And on THIS I do have a suggestion for a solution. A pole will go up every week with a list of possible topics. The topic is chosen, and somebody volunteers to have the lecture. This lecture will NOT be held in the IRC - that is inefficient. Instead they will lecture in a new 'lecture' forum where they may answer people's questions and stuff.5) flamers and newbies have always been here and will always be - and I have no problem with that.

The problem is in the people and in the content of the site. The design doesn't matter a bit.

I don't state my opinion on these things often. In fact, I havn't been in the forefront of any discussions for a long time, only reading the board and answering questions when people havn't already answered with the same info. But I'm going to, for once, state my opinion on matters. Most of you probably don't really know me because of the fact that I don't post much, but I have been around UGN for quite some time. Nearly two years now. But here's my ideas:

1. Like SR said, who cares about the design. I'm pretty sure the point of this site is to learn, not look at a pretty design. The design won't help us learn at all.

2. There is a bit of a lack of content. Personaly, I'd like more, newer texts, which means I should write some. I don't have much time to write them right now. So I'm not going to complain untill I write something myself.

3. I like SR's idea of having lectures. We could learn a lot from that. And I like not having them in IRC, cause that never works.

4. The people that are posting are the most important. People do answer basically every question that gets posted, but there aren't many great questions posted. We have nobody else to look to other than ourselves.

5. Joking around, off-topic posts, newbies, lamers, *insert more here*, have always been here. Have always been everywhere. Will always be here, and everywhere. So ignore them if you are annoyed of them. Otherwise, don't bother flaming, what good does that do? Just let them be, and help if you can/want.

Ok. I'm back yet again, but with a different view of UGN after talking to Gizmo for quite a while...

I'd just like to state my opinion on the points that Mornse brought up:

1. I care a bit about the design. I have a fairly slow computer that I use to access the internet, and when I do, I don't want to be downloading a dozen huge images every time I visit the UGN website - all I was talking to Gizmo about was a new "slick", "fast" design (check the logs folks, those were the words I used!) with a new backend that I offered to make - one that would have a searchable database and a simple interface. That's what I meant by "new design". The offer on the PHP coding still stands.

2. Well, hell, I agree with Mornse here - new content=better.

3. I would gladly host programming lectures, write tutorials, etc. I have written a number on my website and any of those would make a useful topic - anything from PHP to C++ to mod_auth in Apache.

4. If nobody posts great questions, it's really not the experienced people's problem. I believe that the hackers of the future had better do their reading, then come and ask questions with a little knowledge. I'm a huge proponent of well-focused questions, not very general ones like "How does a protocol work?" although those questions can often make a good lecture - think of doing a lecture on this: "what is a port and what does it do?" - that would make a fairly useful lecture, considering the thread that it was posted in had a ton of useful information (As well as SR and I parrying over int's and unsigned ints.)

5. I'm a "when i'm at work, do only work" person. I, quite frankly, hate off-topic forums, joke forums, lamers, (i'll plaigarize from Mornse here: *insert more here*). I will, however, do my best to ignore (& stay out of) those forums.

Now, as to SR's comments (I'll just comment on his #3)

The programming forum rots primarily because we're all obsessed with using programs other people have written for stuff rather than doing it ourselves. There's not much wrong with that. BUT maybe if we dissected a few cool tools, or wrote some code and explained it, then maybe the coding forums would be more active. I know that I am primarily a programmer, so if anyone has any serious questions for the forums, I'll work at answering them.

However, I think that there is an integral problem with the programming forums, and that is that they are divided up incorrectly. We should remove the SmartCards forums (What the hell is a smart card!?) and follow RRFN's forum split-up: HTML, Java, CGI, Flash, PHP, and C/C++.

Smart cards are the cards for Digital satelites and cable boxes. (another form of hacking)

UGN is more than a code forum such as RRFN though. I dissagree on the point of divieding the forums up more Like RRFN.

1.) RRFN and UGN praticaly share the same members.2.) UGN deals in more than webdesign and programming unlike RRFN which mainly deals with just coding of some sort.3.) Mine are still dead divided up like that

The way they are divided up her covers all the bases and just need some senior members to lead the way in them. The more people post in there and publish code on here, the more the newbies will want to to look 1337.

1. UGN has a cool look. Maybe could be a bit faster for slower comps but I have 56k and it runs fine. In my opinion no need to change it.

2. Obsolete content needs to purged. But old texts that are still practical can stay.

3. I love SR's idea about some sort of lecture or discussion every week. But Im divided about where to have it. UBB is probably better.

4. I agree we should offer more besides a great community. Lots of informative texts and things to look at besides the UBB would be a good idea. Once I learn something I'll be happy to right some tuts or something

ya, keep in mind that I don't want this to be "just another lecture idea" - that fails.

Here's some things I'd like to make special note of that may make the lecture thing work:

1) Screw IRC, we can't all be in some place at one time - and we don't want to limit the people who benefit to those who go. And IRC logs SUCK...

2) We need lectures that people (plural) are truly interested in reading. That's why I don't want 'assigned topics' and rather 'voted in' topics. If it wasn't for the forum poll feature - this wouldn't work so well. But it is a very simple thing to setup a poll with many topics up for votes.

3) I don't want the lecture system depandant on a person's ability to meet an appointment. So it's kept to a minimum. If somebody can't meet the deadline for his lecture (cause he's a procrastinator or cause he can't get his material together or he doesn't have time... etc...) - so what? You can wait a long as you want before creating a new topic in the lecture forum to present your lecture and prepare for questions. Reguardless, a new lecture topic will be chosen in the polls the very next week. And if you take an extremely long time - then somebody else can take it where you left off.

4) There should be a whole forum dedicated to lectures. This consoladates all the good info into one forum - just like the news forum. Also, since it will be in posts - not article or chat logs - you may answer people's questions. The question answering really is a free-for-all. As long as people browsing the forum can access the good stuff in the first post for every topic (lecture) it's all good.

---

And really, I can't see any reason why people can't just volunteer to make a lecture in the forum. The poll thing is just a means of giving people ideas and making sure that two people aren't trying to write lectures with either the same or extremely similar topics.

And I stress again - it is BETTER to have a forum for the lectures rather than submitted articles. This encourages conversation - encourages questions and answers - and encourages the lectures to be written in the first place. If you don't get feedback - you don't really feel like writing a lecture. So if you create a topic in the lecture forum - you get the prestige and the attention and all that good stuff. Any topic created that ISN'T a lecture getS deleted immediately. It is up to the moderators discretion as to whether a lecture is really a lecture - or just some pitiful attempt to get attention.

I am down with that idea, as long as moderators for this forum aren't new to this place. I mean I have seen a bad mod ruin a good idea. heh, I have seen a mod lock a topic on a free download calling it Warez...

So Mods are important here. I will gladly write (even spell check a lecture)

Well I have been here since the good ol' days when Beard ran the site (Damn I feel old) and I must say that the site has come a long way since then and I hope that it continues on this good path..........Congrats Giz, and everyone else......

Unless you try something to which you have not already succeeded ~ Then you shall NEVER grow

The use of "hacker" to mean "security breaker" is a confusion on the part of the mass media. We hackers refuse to recognize that meaning, and continue using the word to mean, "Someone who loves to program and enjoys being clever about it."--------------------"Its not a bug, its a feature" (Epic Games)