He arrived in F1 predicted to be the next big thing with some ludicrous comparisons to Senna and Prost . All commentators keep saying he is the real deal but from what I have seen he is nowhere near that level yet. Yes, I get that the McLaren is not the easiest car to show ur pace. But try telling that to Alonso who seems to be in a different league compared to Stoffel. Agreed, Alonso is an animal and has made mincemeat of most of his team mates but in most qualifying sessions Vandoorne is almost a second down on Alonso . That's worrying for sure. Stoffel has escaped the same sort of scrutiny that other poor performers like Palmer and Stroll are getting primarily due to the the focus on Honda being a piece of fairy cakes ..but how long?

Interesting you posted this because I was about to post this very thing in the other thread where MANY people swore he would set the world ablaze going off of how insanely superb he was in the feeder series. In particular Zak Brown's statement that he's as good, if not better than all-time greats which I basically said was preposterous. After the totally AMATEUR cucumber-esk clash with Massa at the Spanish GP (which was CLEARLY 1,000,000% Vandoorne's fault), I literally said this is the guy everyone was talking up? At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub.

At the moment it was a bit harsh, but if he continues to do things like that, well, let's just say I hope it was a one-off incident, but Alonso has beaten him more convincingly than any other teammate I can recall.

He's averaging around half a second back in qualifying rather than almost a second which is still bad of course but not Palmer level. The McLaren was a particularly tricky car to drive before Spain with the unnatural gearshifting and throttle application and he's apparently braking too late and it's affecting his cornering/exit speed. Alonso excels at driving around issues so I think he'd have made a lot of drivers look bad in these circumstances, just look at 2012 and his pre-Spain form compared to Massa when the car was nicknamed Clifford.

I thought Spain was his first clean weekend reliability wise so I was a bit disappointed with him but I read on another forum he had an electrical issue in qualifying and had some issues in the race too. I'll post more when the translated articles from Japan are posted on that forum as that's where it's said to be talked about.

The Massa incident was poor though but the closing speed was insane. Massa was a mile behind until the pit wall ends and then just closed dramatically. Still clumsy and shouldn't have happened but it's yet another thing that just wouldn't have happened in another car.

Now they can shift normally and the cars performance in low revs have improved dramatically and we're heading into the European season on tracks he predominantly knows I think we'll see an upturn in performance if he can get clean running through the sessions.

In short I'm giving him a good few races yet before I can judge him properly but I get that others might not.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

He's come up against Alonso in top form and in a car that's very difficult to drive fast (strange upshifting etc.) which is not only less than ideal for a rookie but is also where Alonso excels, driving around issues.

Once the McLaren becomes a more 'Stable' car we will be in a better place to judge IMO. He's clearly a very, very talented driver given his performances in GP2.

He's averaging around half a second back in qualifying rather than almost a second which is still bad of course but not Palmer level. The McLaren was a particularly tricky car to drive before Spain with the unnatural gearshifting and throttle application and he's apparently braking too late and it's affecting his cornering/exit speed. Alonso excels at driving around issues so I think he'd have made a lot of drivers look bad in these circumstances, just look at 2012 and his pre-Spain form compared to Massa when the car was nicknamed Clifford.

For perspective, he's closer to Alonso in his rookie year than Raikkonen was in 2014. Considering that rookies almost always get faster, he's not doing too badly.

That said, I agree that he was absurdly hyped up, and I said as much at the time. I don't like the modern culture of hyperbole, where everyone is either the next GOAT or they aren't worth talking about. It's essentially the communication equivalent of brickwalling in sound mastering; exaggerate the highs and lows, and remove everything in between.

The McLaren was a particularly tricky car to drive before Spain with the unnatural gearshifting and throttle application and he's apparently braking too late and it's affecting his cornering/exit speed. Alonso excels at driving around issues so I think he'd have made a lot of drivers look bad in these circumstances.

I think you make a very valid point here. Alonso is a master at driving around issues and dragging the car to where it doesn't belong. And these are not very minor issues. They require a fundamental change in the way you drive. Upshifting before the requisite revs to prevent the engine going kaboom is a ridiculous issue to deal with and probably the first of its kind. So let's hope if and when Honda gets it's s h i t together, he is closer to Alonso. McLaren needs him to be good. Otherwise it doesn't reflect well on their young driver program.

I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use it

Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected

It is an insulting term, and while I feel it has a legitimate (if still insulting) application in sports, I think it's beyond hasty to apply it to a driver after a single at-fault collision. Calling every driver who isn't the best a scrub is like calling every car that doesn't win the championship a dog; it simply increases the noise ratio of the dialogue.

He did look a class apart in GP2 and as such I was expecting a Hamilton like arrival in F1. I now feel it says more about the quality of GP2 than it did about Vandoorne.I think it would only be fair to see him given more time and a reliable car before writing him off completely though.

I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.

This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can remember

Interesting you posted this because I was about to post this very thing in the other thread where MANY people swore he would set the world ablaze going off of how insanely superb he was in the feeder series. In particular Zak Brown's statement that he's as good, if not better than all-time greats which I basically said was preposterous. After the totally AMATEUR cucumber-esk clash with Massa at the Spanish GP (which was CLEARLY 1,000,000% Vandoorne's fault), I literally said this is the guy everyone was talking up? At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub.

At the moment it was a bit harsh, but if he continues to do things like that, well, let's just say I hope it was a one-off incident, but Alonso has beaten him more convincingly than any other teammate I can recall.

Seriously now? After only 5 races where he completed ONLY 2 of them with 2 DNFs and 1 DNS? The nerve of couch critics today where they expect every rookie to instantly perform like Hamilton did in 2007 like that's the norm and not the exception, while he's driving a dog of a car and against one of the best drivers currently.

Give the new guys some slack, let them race and if 2 years from now are nowhere THEN you can say whatever you want.

He did look a class apart in GP2 and as such I was expecting a Hamilton like arrival in F1. I now feel it says more about the quality of GP2 than it did about Vandoorne.I think it would only be fair to see him given more time and a reliable car before writing him off completely though.

Vandoorne has been brilliant in many series not just GP2.

Honestly, they guy has had 6 grand prix and outscored his team mates over them. He's driving a car which has almost no chance of finishing a race and is up against the best of the generation driving out of his skin. I think everyone should cut him some slack.

I think it's time that in general people give him on using Hamilton's rookie season as a yard stick. It does other rookies a disservice.

Interesting you posted this because I was about to post this very thing in the other thread where MANY people swore he would set the world ablaze going off of how insanely superb he was in the feeder series. In particular Zak Brown's statement that he's as good, if not better than all-time greats which I basically said was preposterous. After the totally AMATEUR cucumber-esk clash with Massa at the Spanish GP (which was CLEARLY 1,000,000% Vandoorne's fault), I literally said this is the guy everyone was talking up? At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub.

At the moment it was a bit harsh, but if he continues to do things like that, well, let's just say I hope it was a one-off incident, but Alonso has beaten him more convincingly than any other teammate I can recall.

It's way too early to cast stones at him. He had very little running in that car with it constantly breaking down/having issues on top of already very minimal pre-season testing. It's probably one of the hardest cars to drive on the grid as well, although that's obviously speculation. Alonso is a known masterclass so it would be a real shocker if Vandoorne could match him or even come close right away. Hamilton did in '07', but he had hundreds of laps of pre-season testing under his belt, and the car was a front runner.

He got McLaren their first points of the season, last year. He is still learning the job, and he is not being considered anything other than the new boy by the team.

If the lower series are really the path developing young drivers are to follow to become Grand Prix drivers, then we shouldn't be too nervous about Stoffel. He is good enough, and it is only a matter of time - and Honda development - before all pieces of the puzzle fall into place. There should be no doubt that at this point he is not the preferred driver, however much McLaren may consider him 'their future'. The team is desperately trying to hang onto Alonso, and with good reason. The only question that lingers in the back of my mind concerning Stoffel, is whether it will turn out to have been bad for him to have joined a top-tier team in turmoil.

Yes, that incident with Massa is baffling, and his reaction afterwards even more so. I hope he won't bury himself in PR-nonsense. That would be sad and probably unhelpful.

_________________Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.

This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can remember

I didn't expect him to come in and match or beat Alonso straight away, but to be close. It's just that in the sessions the car has been running including free practice he has been a long way off Alonso most of the time. Now supposedly he got the seat because he was expected to be an upgrade from Button, but at this point I'm inclined to think he is not!

I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.

This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can remember

I didn't expect him to come in and match or beat Alonso straight away, but to be close. It's just that in the sessions the car has been running including free practice he has been a long way off Alonso most of the time. Now supposedly he got the seat because he was expected to be an upgrade from Button, but at this point I'm inclined to think he is not!

Tbh I think it's one thing to get up to speed in F1 in a decent car, quite another to have to learn the ropes while fighting a truck. I think this shouldn't be underestimated

I am not a fan of his, and I also don't like the way some drivers arrive with flashing 'BEST IN THE WORLD_EVER' signs, but, come on, lets not bin him just yet. Give him 3 or 4 uneventful races in a car capable of finishing at least!

Interesting you posted this because I was about to post this very thing in the other thread where MANY people swore he would set the world ablaze going off of how insanely superb he was in the feeder series. In particular Zak Brown's statement that he's as good, if not better than all-time greats which I basically said was preposterous. After the totally AMATEUR cucumber-esk clash with Massa at the Spanish GP (which was CLEARLY 1,000,000% Vandoorne's fault), I literally said this is the guy everyone was talking up? At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub.

At the moment it was a bit harsh, but if he continues to do things like that, well, let's just say I hope it was a one-off incident, but Alonso has beaten him more convincingly than any other teammate I can recall.

Raikkonen, Piquet, Grosjean, Fissichella...

These dominations happened under Briatore or at Ferrari.

Vandoorne is really a surprise because I am sure McLaren who has been always fair to his drivers are doing their best to make him go faster.

The shocking thing is that Vandoorne is incapable of doing a faster sector time(not a lap) than his teammate and a lap have 3 of those. If we want to judge him with Stroll standards then he is doing well but if you want to judge him as a potential WDC winner, I am afraid he is doing worse than Palmer at the moment. He is not even taking chances at the start(something rookies tend to do to impress) so all I see is some veteran driving style but with not enough speed.

----Now to the guy defense, he may have potential same as Sainz but if they think their talent alone will make them win WDCs they are day dreaming. They need to create buzz, have a following. Who is there to defend Vandoorne interests? Does he have any fan or "influencer" who is asking the right questions? F1 is not only about talent on the Track, something many people fail to understand or underestimate.

Off Topic: Verstappen has managed to create(not him but the people in his camp) a successful campaign and you can find videos of him since he was a baby and any interview in Dutch is available in English within hours. It is really impressive and it works.

I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.

This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can remember

He's probably run fewer laps in an F1 car through 5 races than drivers like Hamilton and Vettel did before driving even one race.

I very much championed Vandoorne to be mega in F1 but I have to say thus far he's been a bit disappointing, I just built him up too much and underestimated just what a colossus Alonso is.

Both Palmer and Stroll have bigger deficit to their teammate. What does it say about Massa and Hulkenberg? are they mega champions?He is either driving wrongly and can not change his driving style, or he doesn't have the head to be in this business(future champion).We understand he is driving a very poor car but why he is not doing like Alonso/Verstappen at the start? any crash will be forgiven anyway given the car he is driving. Both Alonso and Verstappen look mega and are rated accordingly because they go banzai at the start knowing it is their best and only opportunity to gain/overtake cars. Sometimes it backfires(like last race) but at least they are trying.

To never achieve a faster sector than your teammate is really something.. so I sincerely hope the only problem he has is on his head because live timing has shown no speed from him so far and his starts are not better.

I very much championed Vandoorne to be mega in F1 but I have to say thus far he's been a bit disappointing, I just built him up too much and underestimated just what a colossus Alonso is.

Both Palmer and Stroll have bigger deficit to their teammate. What does it say about Massa and Hulkenberg? are they mega champions?He is either driving wrongly and can not change his driving style, or he doesn't have the head to be in this business(future champion).We understand he is driving a very poor car but why he is not doing like Alonso/Verstappen at the start? any crash will be forgiven anyway given the car he is driving. Both Alonso and Verstappen look mega and are rated accordingly because they go banzai at the start knowing it is their best and only opportunity to gain/overtake cars. Sometimes it backfires(like last race) but at least they are trying.

To never achieve a faster sector than your teammate is really something.. so I sincerely hope the only problem he has is on his head because live timing has shown no speed from him so far and his starts are not better.

Only thing I'll say in defense of his starts is China apart we've not seen mega starts from Alonso either this year. China was wet so a little different and Alonso got a great one no doubt (6 places I think) but I'm not sure he's gained a place in any other and Massa was right with him in Spain again for example so I'm not sure that McHonda have as good a launch map yet with this new PU as they did last year.

I don't know if the problems the car had with driveability is the problem or not.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I very much championed Vandoorne to be mega in F1 but I have to say thus far he's been a bit disappointing, I just built him up too much and underestimated just what a colossus Alonso is.

Both Palmer and Stroll have bigger deficit to their teammate. What does it say about Massa and Hulkenberg? are they mega champions?He is either driving wrongly and can not change his driving style, or he doesn't have the head to be in this business(future champion).We understand he is driving a very poor car but why he is not doing like Alonso/Verstappen at the start? any crash will be forgiven anyway given the car he is driving. Both Alonso and Verstappen look mega and are rated accordingly because they go banzai at the start knowing it is their best and only opportunity to gain/overtake cars. Sometimes it backfires(like last race) but at least they are trying.

To never achieve a faster sector than your teammate is really something.. so I sincerely hope the only problem he has is on his head because live timing has shown no speed from him so far and his starts are not better.

No it doesn't mean that either the Hulk or Massa are mega champions because I didn't rate either Palmer or Stroll that highly in the first place.

We don't know what the differences between their cars will be, would McLaren entrust their best car to him or to Button? But I agree he needs a good showing.

There hasn't been much difference between the McLaren's since Oz so although there is another upgrade aero wise coming to Monaco I'd bet it'll be for both cars so shouldn't be an issue.

Race 6 is Stoff's turn anyway so if there is only 1 it should go to him in any case.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use it

Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected

Sorry, am I supposed to care how you feel about me? As far as I am aware I have the liberty to use the word Scrub if "I" feel it is warranted.

"IF" you guys reference the other thread where Zack Brown talked him up as being as good as some elite ALL-TIME greats, and look at all the commentary in there about how people are inclined to not only believe but agree with such nonsense, Vandoorne's performance thus far deems him a scrub. You don't have to agree with me but you also don't have to chime in to say things from your pedestal.

While I am educated, JUST LIKE Stephen A. Smith, I grew up in the hood and can speak properly whilst interjecting a little reality from my upbringing, which you likely know nothing about and can't relate.

Feel free to search youtube for Stephen A. Smith Kwame Brown and have a listen. Does the fact he calls him a SCRUB so vehemently warrant anyone to despise him because they disagree? I don't think so, and he is entitled to his opinion, of which I happened to agree with.

If you compare this next anointed one to those he was said to be as good as or better, he's performed FAR below those bold projections. I on the other hand stated that it was indeed far too bold a statement to make specifically because he'd never driven a lap in an F1 car and we would only ever be able to comment on his ability once we got to see him turn laps. I've seen too many "Next Best Things" make it to the bigtime in several sports, only to see them fail miserably. I'm not saying Vandoorne wont ever become superb, but right now he is NOWHERE in the vicinity of being as good as Zack Brown stated.

Unless he was in the middle of a very long build up to a sneeze, his take on the clash with Massa is total and utter BS.

"He was “quite surprised” to find Felipe Massa alongside him when he went into Turn 1 in Spain."

Sorry but Massa was not only alongside him for a VERY long way, but was even ahead of him and Vandoorne either deliberately turned in on him or he lacks total spacial awareness, and going based off his entire career, I'm inclined to say it wasn't the latter.

Interesting you posted this because I was about to post this very thing in the other thread where MANY people swore he would set the world ablaze going off of how insanely superb he was in the feeder series. In particular Zak Brown's statement that he's as good, if not better than all-time greats which I basically said was preposterous. After the totally AMATEUR cucumber-esk clash with Massa at the Spanish GP (which was CLEARLY 1,000,000% Vandoorne's fault), I literally said this is the guy everyone was talking up? At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub.

At the moment it was a bit harsh, but if he continues to do things like that, well, let's just say I hope it was a one-off incident, but Alonso has beaten him more convincingly than any other teammate I can recall.

Seriously now? After only 5 races where he completed ONLY 2 of them with 2 DNFs and 1 DNS? The nerve of couch critics today where they expect every rookie to instantly perform like Hamilton did in 2007 like that's the norm and not the exception, while he's driving a dog of a car and against one of the best drivers currently.

Give the new guys some slack, let them race and if 2 years from now are nowhere THEN you can say whatever you want.

I understand that the car isn't up to par but I'm basing this via comparison to his teammate, and that includes races and qualifying. All is indicative of his speed compared to his teammate, whom we must remember is not exactly superb in qualifying, yet manages to be considerably faster than the young "phenom". The difference in the races has been even greater, further diminishing my opinion of him. I am hopeful that he comes to be as good as touted, but that is something we can only ever say if and when he shows us something to elicit even a curiously raised brow. Right now all he's done is help show what a beast his teammate is.

He said he checked his mirror to see where Felipe was at the start of the straight and thought he would never catch him so just wasn't expecting anyone there. Silly mistake of course but looking at the onboards I can forgive it.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I'd personally cut him some slack give what a complete fairy cakes show the McLaren car is. It can't be easy to jump into arguably the worst car in the history of motorsport and do anything. Poor boy can't even get any running.

This. I think he's possibly had one of the toughest baptisms of any driver I can remember

I didn't expect him to come in and match or beat Alonso straight away, but to be close. It's just that in the sessions the car has been running including free practice he has been a long way off Alonso most of the time. Now supposedly he got the seat because he was expected to be an upgrade from Button, but at this point I'm inclined to think he is not!

Tbh I think it's one thing to get up to speed in F1 in a decent car, quite another to have to learn the ropes while fighting a truck. I think this shouldn't be underestimated

I can appreciate this BUT… If a driver is truly so good he's believed to be as good as all-time greats, said driver should be matching his teammate from the get.I'm hoping Vandoorne does develop into a great driver, but right now, bad car or not, I'm not seeing it from him.

He said he checked his mirror to see where Felipe was at the start of the straight and thought he would never catch him so just wasn't expecting anyone there. Silly mistake of course but looking at the onboards I can forgive it.

It's fine that he didn't think Massa could catch him when he looked in his mirror, but Massa was ALL THE WAY alongside him and even pulled ahead so I cannot excuse it. It's one thing if Massa was only half way up his side and in his blind spot, but Massa was alongside way before they hit the corner and it's easy to see when a car is immediately alongside with your periphery.

He said he checked his mirror to see where Felipe was at the start of the straight and thought he would never catch him so just wasn't expecting anyone there. Silly mistake of course but looking at the onboards I can forgive it.

It's fine that he didn't think Massa could catch him when he looked in his mirror, but Massa was ALL THE WAY alongside him and even pulled ahead so I cannot excuse it. It's one thing if Massa was only half way up his side and in his blind spot, but Massa was alongside way before they hit the corner and it's easy to see when a car is immediately alongside with your periphery.

I think Stoff was just focused on his braking to be honest and didn't see him, he only gets alongside a fraction before Stoff brakes.

Silly mistake of course because you should always be aware of your surroundings but considering how far away Massa was I think it's something that could catch drivers out so I'm a bit more forgiving.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use it

Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected

Sorry, am I supposed to care how you feel about me? As far as I am aware I have the liberty to use the word Scrub if "I" feel it is warranted.

"IF" you guys reference the other thread where Zack Brown talked him up as being as good as some elite ALL-TIME greats, and look at all the commentary in there about how people are inclined to not only believe but agree with such nonsense, Vandoorne's performance thus far deems him a scrub. You don't have to agree with me but you also don't have to chime in to say things from your pedestal.

While I am educated, JUST LIKE Stephen A. Smith, I grew up in the hood and can speak properly whilst interjecting a little reality from my upbringing, which you likely know nothing about and can't relate.

Feel free to search youtube for Stephen A. Smith Kwame Brown and have a listen. Does the fact he calls him a SCRUB so vehemently warrant anyone to despise him because they disagree? I don't think so, and he is entitled to his opinion, of which I happened to agree with.

If you compare this next anointed one to those he was said to be as good as or better, he's performed FAR below those bold projections. I on the other hand stated that it was indeed far too bold a statement to make specifically because he'd never driven a lap in an F1 car and we would only ever be able to comment on his ability once we got to see him turn laps. I've seen too many "Next Best Things" make it to the bigtime in several sports, only to see them fail miserably. I'm not saying Vandoorne wont ever become superb, but right now he is NOWHERE in the vicinity of being as good as Zack Brown stated.

Unless he was in the middle of a very long build up to a sneeze, his take on the clash with Massa is total and utter BS.

"He was “quite surprised” to find Felipe Massa alongside him when he went into Turn 1 in Spain."

Sorry but Massa was not only alongside him for a VERY long way, but was even ahead of him and Vandoorne either deliberately turned in on him or he lacks total spacial awareness, and going based off his entire career, I'm inclined to say it wasn't the latter.