Some work closely with studios, some work closely with particular projects, and they do all the kinds of things, those P* Managers tend to do

[13:25]

Jurin Juran:

P*Managers..LOL Zero

[13:25]

Wyn Galbraith:

Da Boom sounds interesting.

[13:26]

Zero Linden:

rahter than have a fixed set of functions of that role, we let each case decide what is needed

[13:26]

Squirrel Wood:

Meep. I speak two languages, have several years experience of gm/admin work on a mmo, experience training new gms... do have good sarcastic humor, can outwit troublemakers.... would I qualify as Liaison? :p

Yes - So, that "ultimate fix" (I do dislike anything with "Ultimate" in the title...)

[13:36]

Zero Linden:

is sort of HetGrid

[13:36]

Zero Linden:

only we beleve heavily in compatibility

[13:37]

Saijanai Kuhn:

it was ironoic. There's room for SL 3.0 etc

[13:37]

Zero Linden:

I realized....

[13:37]

Saijanai Kuhn:

so do I. Just there's bugs in current version that people exploit heavely and I hate to see those enshrined...

[13:37]

Zero Linden:

Well, it isn't always black and white....

[13:38]

Zero Linden:

for example, some LSL calls have goofy, nay, awful semantics...

[13:38]

Zero Linden:

we could "fix" them so the library was squeaky clean

[13:38]

Zero Linden:

or just sigh and add newer calls that do things in a more sane fashion, and leave the old for all those old scripts out there

[13:38]

Squirrel Wood:

lsl... When will we get autocompletion? and when will the commands not be case sensitive or auto-format to the proper case? ^^

[13:38]

Saijanai Kuhn:

sure, understood.

[13:39]

Zero Linden:

You have the source to the editor - please!

[13:39]

Saijanai Kuhn:

some things are just workarounds that cause their own problems...

[13:39]

Zero Linden:

We will not be working on the editor much in the near term -- many more big issues than that - and again, it is something the open source community can do

[13:39]

Wyn Galbraith:

So the LSL editor is part of the viewer.

[13:39]

Stevex Janus:

API should have a used by date.

[13:40]

Zero Linden:

By the way, many people use external editors with LSL modes - I for one use SubEthaEdit

[13:40]

Zero Linden:

Wyn, yes

[13:40]

Zero Linden:

Ha ha - exipring APIs....

[13:40]

Wyn Galbraith uses TextPad for HTML, PHP and Java.

[13:40]

Zero Linden:

"This application best used by March 2010"

[13:40]

Saijanai Kuhn:

for instance, I would HATE to see THIS kludge survive a real joint system:. I did it as an advertisement for a need: vhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMtJO0ZKMlw

[13:41]

Stevex Janus:

It would prevent bad interfaces living for ever.

[13:41]

Zero Linden:

Another trick, you can run your lsl source through the C++ preprocessor - and then you can #define and #include

[13:41]

Zero Linden:

ha ha - Squirrel - were it only that pretty

[13:41]

Squirrel Wood:

Oh well. C++ and I don't really like each other. I was brought up on turbo pascal, inline assembler code and basic :p

[13:42]

Zero Linden:

Actually, the asset server is a distributed, redundant file system

[13:42]

Squirrel Wood gave you second life servers.

[13:42]

Saijanai Kuhn took FORTRAN IV back when it was cutting edge...

[13:43]

Zero Linden:

Languages in heavy use at Linden Lab: C++, Python, PHP and a smattering of Perl

[13:43]

Squirrel Wood:

^^

[13:43]

Zero Linden:

Personally, I yearn for my old Smalltalk days.....

[13:43]

Zha Ewry cheers with one hand at C++ and winces with the other

[13:44]

Saijanai Kuhn:

C++ (emi check), Python (working on it),PHP (Check), perl (check).

[13:44]

Zha Ewry:

Smalltalk.. Heh. You want a nice generational scavanger for that Zero?

[13:44]

Saijanai Kuhn:

have you ever asked Alan Kay to speak in SL? I'm sure he would love to

[13:44]

Wyn Galbraith had those too, Squirrell, "C++ isn't that bad, from the little bit I've been exposed to. I had FORTRAN, IBM Assembler, forget which, CDC Cyber 3000 series machine language, COBOL, geeze what good are they now :)

[13:45]

Zero Linden:

Zha - I wrote one of the first - I worked on Apple Smalltalk with Dan Ingalls

[13:45]

Zha Ewry:

Cool

[13:45]

Squirrel Wood:

^^

[13:45]

Saijanai Kuhn:

are you a squeak fan, Zreo?

[13:45]

Saijanai Kuhn:

Zero

[13:45]

Wyn Galbraith:

Cool.

[13:45]

Zero Linden:

Well yes and no - It is wonderful that a Smalltalk environment is finally available to all

[13:46]

Zero Linden:

And, it is a grandchild of Apple Samlltalk -- some of my code is still in that Image!

[13:46]

Zero Linden:

BUT - Smalltalk still suffers from many of the problems it had back when I was working on it twenty years ago

[13:46]

Stevex Janus:

high over head

[13:47]

Zero Linden:

the biggest being that it is a very awkward environemnt to deploy an application in, unless you want your users to be running the Smalltalk environment as well

Modern processors have got us to a point where the overhead of an interpreted dynamic langauge is less important than the flexibility and rapid devleopment it affords

[13:48]

Zero Linden:

and it's expressive power

[13:49]

Stevex Janus:

Tell taht to my desktop. Runing the client and compiling it as the same time is really slow :-)

[13:49]

Zero Linden:

Zha - there was a time when we counted every byte in those frames....... no longer!

[13:49]

Saijanai Kuhn:

Stevex have you used Squeak? It's not thatbad

[13:49]

Zero Linden:

Well- neither of those are written in scripting langauge - and both are doing some of the few compute intensive tasks left:

[13:49]

Stevex Janus:

Nope.

[13:49]

Zero Linden:

3D rendering and compiling

[13:49]

Zha Ewry nods, "I dont care about the bytes, I care about the need to think about all 27 varients, because they diverge"

[13:50]

Squirrel Wood:

regarding coding stuff... SL used the FMod library which supports a plethora of different file formats.. why does SL not support those? Why must sound be in wav format? ^^

[13:50]

Zero Linden:

Zha - right but we had several (not 27, I don't think) varients as we wanted to use really tight ones when needed --- but yes, in general I agree, but we have the freedom and memory and CPU power now

[13:51]

Zha Ewry:

Yes

[13:51]

Zero Linden:

Squirrel - I don't know

[13:51]

Zha Ewry:

And I'd rather enforce good design in Smalltalk, then battle C++ to get it to allow the 3 frame varients i want.

[13:51]

Zero Linden:

Usually, most choices at LL are made to support the first, simplest thing that will work, and then let need drive the next set of features

[13:52]

Wyn Galbraith remembers CP/M

[13:52]

Zero Linden:

I'd say that converting to .wav file format isn't much of a hurdle for folks for the small snippets you upload, hence, there isn't much pressure to do more

[13:52]

Squirrel Wood:

I've been playing around with fmod quite a bit and from what I have seen fmod will try to identify the file format you throw at it and play it if it can.

[13:52]

Zero Linden:

sure, it would be nice, but it isn't as important as many other things we coudl do

[13:53]

Squirrel Wood:

still a 10s mp3 would be a lot smaller than a wav file and thus downloaded faster? less strain on the network

[13:54]

Zero Linden:

I don't know about that - 10s is pretty short and I don't konw what the overhead of mp3 is.... but in the end, no, that's "a fart in a whirlwind" as Dan Ingalls used to say

[13:54]

Squirrel Wood:

^^

[13:54]

Wyn Galbraith:

LOL

[13:55]

Khamon Fate:

i have to run. thanks for hosting Zero

[13:55]

Zero Linden:

Thanks for coming, as always

[13:55]

Saijanai Kuhn:

fascinating stuff. Why do all the Smalltalk guys have a certain air about them?

[13:56]

Wyn Galbraith:

You mean age?

[13:56]

Zero Linden:

Becuase we all used the best development environment ever 20 years ago and we are still waiting for those features to appear in the development environments we have to use

[13:56]

Saijanai Kuhn:

wisdom?

[13:56]

Zha Ewry nods

[13:56]

Zha Ewry:

"and, wonder why Java, and C# still hurt to use"

[13:56]

Stevex Janus:

Sounds like the lisp people that I know :-)

[13:57]

Zero Linden:

I still cannot point at a member function in a C++ file and find all callers of it.

[13:57]

Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:

[13:57]

Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: A place for everything and everything in its place. -- Isabella Mary Beeton, "The Book of Household Management" [Quoted in "VMS Internals and Data Structures", V4.4, when referring to memory management system services.]

[13:57]

Wyn Galbraith:

Of all the languages Java kicked my butt.

[13:57]

Zero Linden:

And I can only barely point at a function call and jump to the definition of it... maybe... some of the time.... unless this or that.... feh!

[13:57]

Saijanai Kuhn is still afraid to touch ix86 assembler

[13:57]

Stevex Janus:

Ther are some IDE that let you do that.

[13:58]

Zero Linden:

And don't get me going on debugging!

[13:58]

Zero Linden:

But, I recognize that Smalltalk can't accomplish what I need to, though mostly because of the way in which it is deployed..... sigh