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Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

I read the first volume a little too soon after my chrismation, and I found it confusing and scary in places. After finally setting my mind straight on veneration of icons, for instance, I read Evagrius of Pontus' writings about how "pure prayer" does not involve images. Then there are the stories of the desert monastics meeting demons out in the wilderness, and all the ascetical teachings that go far beyond what most of us can handle. If you must read the Philokalia, read it according to the advice of a wise spiritual father who understands how to read it.

Otherwise, I found The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology (compiled by Igumen Chariton and translated by the same editors of the Philokalia) much more helpful for regular Orthodox Christians like me who want some saintly advice on how to pray.

I've only read the first volume, but I personally thought that the works of St. Mark the Ascetic and St. John of Karpathos were wonderful, though I guess they are all helpful, otherwise they wouldn't be there. I know of people who warn against reading the Philokalia, and I certainly wouldn't want to contradict something a priest tells you, but IMO it is very similar to the Sayings of the Desert Fathers and other spiritual material. It is a less moderated than something like Way of the Ascetics or Ladder of Divine Ascent, but nonetheless won't do you any harm unless you take everything in a woodenly literal way and try and apply everything you read. That's my opinion, anyway.

I've only read the first volume, but I personally thought that the works of St. Mark the Ascetic and St. John of Karpathos were wonderful, though I guess they are all helpful, otherwise they wouldn't be there. I know of people who warn against reading the Philokalia, and I certainly wouldn't want to contradict something a priest tells you, but IMO it is very similar to the Sayings of the Desert Fathers and other spiritual material. It is a less moderated than something like Way of the Ascetics or Ladder of Divine Ascent, but nonetheless won't do you any harm unless you take everything in a woodenly literal way and try and apply everything you read. That's my opinion, anyway.

Yes, my priest already gave me the go ahead Not much material I can get, so likely he's making me read anything remotely Orthodox lol I haven't read The Ladder or the other one, although he did also give me Father Seraphim Rose for a bit of "light" reading

You're right, Asteriskos, that it is generally only if you take it woodenly literal that it can be dangerous. It may also be harmful to try some of the ascetical feats that these Fathers recommend to their brother monks. My priest is more cautious on these things, though and generally does not recommend them for a while. I certainly do not wish to deny that they are edifying and worthwhile reading. I was just a little freaked out about some of the stuff in there and couldn't really benefit from it spiritually until I understood more of the basics of Orthodox Church life.

Seraphim Rose is very good also; he understood the world of the Fathers and their mystic vision and their asceticism, and made every attempt to live it out. But he was also a modern and is generally very good at translating this stuff to Americans. A lot of the books published by St. Hermans Press show this ascetical spirit with some cultural sensitivity. (But "light reading" I'm not so sure!) Kallistos Ware's writings on the spiritual life are also good at this from a more scholarly perspective.

I know a person who who told me about the art of prayer he said he loved it and it was strange the way he finally got to read it and practice the Jesus prayer.His story was also frighting though I must admit.All of sudden he started having an urge to pray for long periods of time he keep seeing his self praying.So he got the inspiration from the Holy Spirit in his heart to buy the Art of Prayer.He thought it would simply have some oral orthodox prayers to say and the cover was blue his favorite color so he bought from Amzon.Once he read it he was shock and felt the depths of his ingnorance about how to pray.He did'nt have a spiritual father at that exact time to help him with this serious prayer.He said as he read the book his heart kept telling him don't read this leave it alone.He knew right then he must read it even more dilgently because he felt it was simply a temptation.He felt great peace when he prayed but he gave me one warning "NEVER EVER EVER EVER say this prayer while you are sleeping or laying down getting ready for bed"he made that mistake and by the grace of God he then knew exactly what heaven felt like and then what hell felt like after he broke that one rule.

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Lord Jesus Christ,Son of God,by the Mother of God have mercy on us sinners:34Ãƒâ€š I give you a new commandment, that youÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š loveÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š one another. Just as I have loved you, you also shouldÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š loveÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š one anot

he gave me one warning "NEVER EVER EVER EVER say this prayer while you are sleeping or laying down getting ready for bed"he made that mistake and by the grace of God he then knew exactly what heaven felt like and then what hell felt like after he broke that one rule.

I wonder why your friend gave you that warning? Sounds a bit odd to me. Can you please explain?

I, on the other hand was told this is often the best prayer to say before you are getting ready for bed or when trying to go to sleep ...

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"Without sorrows there is no salvation. On the other hand, the Kingdom of God awaits those who have patiently endured. And all the glory of the world is nothing in comparison." - St Seraphim of Sarov

please trust me,its the number one rule in saying the Jesus prayer ,you never ever say it while going to sleep its dangerous because this prayer is not ordinary as monks say it while the spiritual father watches them.Its only dangerous when you try to say it while you pray in humble positions not while your awake or standing about.

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Lord Jesus Christ,Son of God,by the Mother of God have mercy on us sinners:34Ãƒâ€š I give you a new commandment, that youÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š loveÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š one another. Just as I have loved you, you also shouldÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š loveÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š one anot

ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š please trust me,its the number one rule in saying the Jesus prayer ,you never ever say it while going toÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š sleep its dangerous because this prayer is not ordinary as monks say it while the spiritual father watches them.Its only dangerous when you try to say it while you pray in humble positions not while your awake or standing about.

I am not really sure what you are trying to say here. The only thing that seemed to be clear was that you believe that the prayer should NOT be said while going to sleep. From where do you derive that opinion?

Thank you.

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Man, learn the sickness of thy soul, for without acknowlegdement of illness there is no healing....Christ alone can heal us, who sigh and pray to him with faith.- St. Tikhon of Zadonsk

ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š please trust me,its the number one rule in saying the Jesus prayer ,you never ever say it while going toÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š sleep its dangerous because this prayer is not ordinary as monks say it while the spiritual father watches them.Its only dangerous when you try to say it while you pray in humble positions not while your awake or standing about.

Dangerous? On what basis? I've said this prayer and others while walking and while going to sleep, and have never felt in danger, nor did it have disturbing results.

Dangerous? On what basis? I've said this prayer and others while walking and while going to sleep, and have never felt in danger, nor did it have disturbing results.

Perhaps the people in question believe that prayer should be said while fully cognizant of what is going on, and not in a half-conscious (falling asleep) state? That some people say to say the Jesus prayer at all times (including while going to sleep, and even in a way while sleeping) is obviously true, but perhaps other people are a bit more reserved or cautious in their practices (or at least the practices they would give to people who haven't used the prayer for many years)?

"he gave me one warning "NEVER EVER EVER EVER say this prayer while you are sleeping or laying down getting ready for bed"he made that mistake and by the grace of God he then knew exactly what heaven felt like and then what hell felt like after he broke that one rule."

"please trust me,its the number one rule in saying the Jesus prayer ,you never ever say it while going to sleep its dangerous because this prayer is not ordinary as monks say it while the spiritual father watches them.Its only dangerous when you try to say it while you pray in humble positions not while your awake or standing about."

Which is in direct opposition to the words of St. John Climacus:

"We have to be especially sober and watchful when we are lying in bed, for that is the time when our mind has to contend with demons outside our body. And if our body is inclined to be sensual then it will easily betray us. So let the remembrance of death and the concise Jesus Prayer go to sleep with you and get up with you, for nothing helps you as these do when you are asleep" (The Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 15, On Chastity).

"he gave me one warning "NEVER EVER EVER EVER say this prayer while you are sleeping or laying down getting ready for bed"he made that mistake and by the grace of God he then knew exactly what heaven felt like and then what hell felt like after he broke that one rule."

Exactly.

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Lord Jesus Christ,Son of God,by the Mother of God have mercy on us sinners:34Ãƒâ€š I give you a new commandment, that youÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š loveÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š one another. Just as I have loved you, you also shouldÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š loveÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š one anot

You friend's admonition is in direct contradiction to St. John's admonition to do exactly what your friend cautions against: saying the Jesus Prayer while laying down getting ready for bed. I think I'll go with St. John advice not your friend's.

I thought my statement was Crystal clear.I am the first one to give that warning but I already lent my book to my brother in Christ so I couldn't give an accountant of which saints actually gave that warning.

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Lord Jesus Christ,Son of God,by the Mother of God have mercy on us sinners:34Ãƒâ€š I give you a new commandment, that youÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š loveÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š one another. Just as I have loved you, you also shouldÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š loveÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š one anot

Does anyone know what part of the Philokalia to read first? Also, if if there is an online guide to it, that would be very helpful.

Also, to avoid this thread going to waste, you guys can discuss favorite parts and whatever about the Philokalia

Well everything I write is well worth reading IMHO

Seriously though as mentioned above The Philokalia on The Prayer of the Heart contains the material mentioned in "The Way of a Pilgrim" and is the way to get into Hesychast prayer in the Christian tradition.

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Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.

Yes, my priest already gave me the go ahead Not much material I can get, so likely he's making me read anything remotely Orthodox lol I haven't read The Ladder or the other one, although he did also give me Father Seraphim Rose for a bit of "light" reading

The Fr. Seraphim Rose reading will be very benifical. I know it was for me when i converted, and for many others. Ah, the wonderful work and life of Fr. Seraphim Rose.

So, can we get back to the main subject??? I would also be interested to hear more thoughts about the Philokalia and how it may have helped you etc. I just bought copies for myself and hope to sit down when it's quiet and start to read and take it all in.

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"Without sorrows there is no salvation. On the other hand, the Kingdom of God awaits those who have patiently endured. And all the glory of the world is nothing in comparison." - St Seraphim of Sarov

So, can we get back to the main subject??? I would also be interested to hear more thoughts about the Philokalia and how it may have helped you etc. I just bought copies for myself and hope to sit down when it's quiet and start to read and take it all in.

The wisdom and practice contained in the Philokalia may be beautiful, as its title indicates, but it is also perilous. Extremely so. I would never, ever read it, nor try to practice what it describes, without the blessing and continued involvement of a dedicated spiritual father. (Of course, the Philokalia itself often advises the very same, but many people conveniently ignore the parts they want to...)

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But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

The wisdom and practice contained in the Philokalia may be beautiful, as its title indicates, but it is also perilous. Extremely so. I would never, ever read it, nor try to practice what it describes, without the blessing and continued involvement of a dedicated spiritual father. (Of course, the Philokalia itself often advises the very same, but many people conveniently ignore the parts they want to...)

This is true and also very wise ... but what does one do when in these days, it's not so easy to find a spiritual father?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š One's parish priest may be the closest they have to a spiritual father who can give blessing and guidance, but (from what I hear from other Orthodox Christians on this website) this may not be the case for all Orthodox throughout the world who may not be so blessed to live near their church, or whatever the case may be.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Nevertheless, it does also say in the book that "if guidance is not to be found, then active participation in the sacramental and liturgical life of the Church, always necessary, will have an added importance in the overcoming of obstacles and dangers inherent in any quest of a spiritual nature."

I started reading The Philokalia, Volume One last night. I got up to the third page of St Isaiah the Solitary's quotes, and already had to stop to think about what I'd just read ... like my eyes were finally opened to what the Scripture verse, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life." - Proverbs 4:23 truly meant! After all these years.

I feel like I'm standing at the edge of the ocean of God's love, wading in further and further ...

« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 02:54:54 AM by QuoVadis »

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"Without sorrows there is no salvation. On the other hand, the Kingdom of God awaits those who have patiently endured. And all the glory of the world is nothing in comparison." - St Seraphim of Sarov

I started with Volume 2 because I was interested in St. Maximus The Confessor, whose writings take up a large part of the volume.

Honestly, some of what St. Maximus wrote was over my head, but I am re-reading it at a much slower pace and asking for God's guidance.

However, I have retained a smattering from St. Maximus' Fourth Century on Love:

"Many have said much about love, but you will find love itself only if you seek it among the disciples of Christ. For only they have Love as love's true teacher. 'Though I have the gift of prophecy" says St. Paul 'and know all mysteries and have no love, it profits me nothing' ( 1 Cor. 13:2-3). He who possesses love possesses God Himself, for 'God is love' (1 John 4:. To Him be glory throughout the ages. Amen."

I have not read the Philokalia, but I certainly want to in time. I am new tho the Jesus Prayer as well, and am just now beginning to practice this discipline. But a couple of points I would like to make, although they are probably influenced heavily by my past Protestantism.

1. As far as the Philokalia being scary at parts or dangerous to read:I would say the same thing about the Holy Bible. The unbelievers will scoff at its mystical truth, and perhaps even be offended by the severity of judgment that they come across in the Sacred Texts. But the one who loves Our Lord will always be comforted and edified by holy truth; for even that which is fearful is that which drives us to repentance, and thus we as Christians are grateful for it. So, I imagine the same applies to all the sacred texts of the Holy Fathers as well.

2. As far as the Jesus Prayer being dangerous to pray while going to sleep: Prayer is communion with God. Through Baptism and Chrismation we are anointed with Holy Spirit, and exorcised of all demons. We renounce Satan and all of his works in the sight of the Holy Mother Orthodox Church. We therefore become God's children by grace, and thus we should never fear to come to Him in sincere prayer. We should cherish prayer, be reverent in prayer, and view prayer as what it is- communication with, supplication of, and praise to Our Lord. I think it is better to fall asleep with the Name of Our Lord on our lips and in our hearts than to drift off into another consciousness with unholy thoughts in our heads.

But I do not want to contradict my Ethiopian Orthodox brother, because I am very new to the Faith. These are just my very humble and neophyte opinions.

Selam

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"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

please trust me,its the number one rule in saying the Jesus prayer ,you never ever say it while going to sleep its dangerous because this prayer is not ordinary as monks say it while the spiritual father watches them.Its only dangerous when you try to say it while you pray in humble positions not while your awake or standing about.

I was reading The Way of A Pilgrim tonight and found this passage that I thought might relate to the above warning.

"But then whatever you do be on your guard agianst imagination and any sort of visions. Don't accept any of them whatever for the holy Fathers lay down most firmly that inward prayer should be kept free from visions lest one fall into temptation." [P.96]

So perhaps this goes along with the admonition not to say the Jesus Prayer while going to sleep or while placing one's body in any position that could cause one to lapse into too relaxed a state of consciousness. For when we are asleep or close to sleep, we begin to dream. And in our dreams we perhaps become more susceptible to these visions that we are warned to reject. And since we are asleep, then we have little ability to resist these subconcious assaults.

I just thought I'd share that specualtion, which is only that- mere speculation. I'm certainly no Priest, and I agree that regarding these deep spiritual matters it is better to err on the side of caution. And personally, I believe that the best spiritual safeguards result from availing ourselves of the holy scaraments and submitting to the teachings and doctrines of the Church and her spirtual authorities. It seems that Cults and religious errors always result from individuals presuming to discern divine mysteries apart from both divine authorities of the Holy Scripture and the Holy Church. In fact, before I came to Orthodoxy I was quite guilty of this presumptuous behavior myself. So, I always have to be on guard.

Selam

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"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx