Of all unlikely things, apparently 2010 is going to see two new settings released for D&D 4E, Dark Sun and Gamma World. Gamma World is a post apocalyptic setting set in a modern nonmagical world after a nuclear Apocalypse. Naturally, the very existence of such a thing is just plain impressively wacky.

This, combined with the fact that WotC isn't renewing the Star Wars licence, and the new D&D heroscape game that will apparently be replacing D&D miniatures, suggest some kind of change of strategy for Wizards. What really makes me wonder is, how exactly does Wizards plan to make Gamma World work without rendering it incompatible with 90% of the existing 4th edition line? Assuming that the entire thing isn't just a prank by amazon. I question a little bit how exactly they plan to make things work in a 150 page volume, if that page count is accurate.

Dark sun would be a remake not a new setting. I havnt paid attention to 4th edition since I originally played it which was a month or so after its release but I do have my doubts whether or not it can stay true to the feel of dark sun and create a post apocolyptic setting that isnt a blatant rip off of some other post apocolyptic setting and still true to its source material.

I was never a big fan of Gamma World, so at the risk of sounding like yet another brainless critic...meh.

I have seen a lot of speculation around the Star Wars license. Honestly, licensed RPGs just do not interest me. I prefer generic systems that I can then use for whatever campaign world I want. Licensed systems always seem to be rushed, too narrow in scope and just generally questionable quality.

Well I'm betting without the 'zing' of a movie or tv series behind it Hasbro probably thought they were paying too much for the franchise license and figured it was the right time to drop the game. (Been expecting this move for about 2 1/2 years)

As for Gamma world.. I always saw it as a spin off of d20 modern (or whatever atrocity they will replace it with) rather than 4e... it doesn't seem any better a fit than putting out top secret as a 4e setting. Just doesn't fit.

I'm actually looking forward to Dark Sun. 4E could do it quite a bit of justice in the whole adventure/weariness department, and I wonder how they'll change or keep the fluff as it has stood back in 3E. It's wait and see, I suppose, but I'm definitely going to enjoy reading up the new setting set to 4E. And Thri-kreen, of course.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike 4e, but this, in my opinion, is the weakest one of all. D&D has felt like a computer role playing game since like the very beginning since computer role playing games were largely based on D&D.

I have sat in more than enough 3.0 and 3.5 games where the battle mat was absolutely necessary to the game. 3.0 introduced the 5' step.

I am not a 4e defender. Hell, I hate all flavors of D&D. I am just tired of hearing this argument parroted over and over and over again. Give it a rest.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike 4e, but this, in my opinion, is the weakest one of all. D&D has felt like a computer role playing game since like the very beginning since computer role playing games were largely based on D&D.

I have sat in more than enough 3.0 and 3.5 games where the battle mat was absolutely necessary to the game. 3.0 introduced the 5' step.

I am not a 4e defender. Hell, I hate all flavors of D&D. I am just tired of hearing this argument parroted over and over and over again. Give it a rest.

Then avoid any Paizo Pathfinder threads on any RPG dedicated forum.

On topic: From what I hear (read), it's more like the Gamma World's mechanics will be 4e BASED, rather than needing the 4e PHB to play. So it'll take cues from 4e, but be it's own beast.

I've never understood the Gamma World love, but I hope this works out. Would be neat to see at the very least.

All fantasy settings that would compete with Eberron. How many post-apocalyptic games are on the market right now?

A couple actually, actually. One just came out, Atomic Highway by Colin Chapman of Radioactive Ape Designs. Beyond Belief Games, the people that made Barbarians of Lemuria is also working on Barbarians of the Aftermath, a Post-Apoc game using their BoL engine.

I don't really think that most fantasy settings really compete with Eberron; Eberron is a setting that focuses on intrigue and conspiracies, with some light horror elements thrown in alongside the magitech. Spelljammer might be the closest, but Eberron really has a lot more going on in the setting than just magitech.

What confuses me is Wizards putting out not one, but two post apocolyptic settings during 2010. Do they know something we don't?

I think that D&D being like a computer game is more the fault of computer games than D&D though. The early editions of the game pretty sincerely meant for the players to focus on exploring and evading or tricking their way past monsters. (such as exploiting their local tribal structure to make them fight each other) While getting into a straight up fight was mostly a way to find out if your character died after he'd already failed. From 2E on, the game got more of an emphasis on directly running your characters into the monsters, and gradually completely lost the endgame about being a feudal lord. One of my only serious beefs against 4E is that it doesn't even pay the slightest lip service to the idea of PCs as leaders, since I extremely often run campaigns where the PCs will eventually at least be running an apartment building, if not a country. (I do wish RPGs would have better rules for statecraft and nation building though.)

While not a big 4e fan, I'm looking forward to both of these. If anything, I feel Dark Sun will fit 4th edition like a glove. Gamma World, I don't know but I'm interested as well. I never got the chance to play the original Gamma World but I played the 4th/5th edition (whichever was the 3.5 one).

The thing is, Gamma World still has a pretty big following. I can understand why they are releasing it actually. It is to post-apocylyptic games what D&D is too fantasy. It'll be interesting to see if they keep the variety of character creation, whether they do or not will depend on if I buy it. Dark Sun almost certainly will get my money though.

I agree with you Great Triangle on my one big problem with 4th edition. Nothing to make the players leaders. No rules for owning land, strongholds or castles. That is my favorite bit about Rules Cyclopedia D&D. Levels 1-9, your going into dungeons. 10-20 your running a country and waging wars. 21-30 your on your quest for godhood.

Gamma World and Dark Sun defiantly have a lot of room for players to become leaders. Hopefully at least Gamma World will have some basic rules for it.

As a person who still plays Gamma World 1E (Yes, the original, that came in a box, with the One Paperback Book and the huge, cartoonish dice) this just sounds silly.

I mean, the DnD 4E Mechanics to me, just don't fit the Gamma World game, and there isn't 'magic' in Gamma World. I didn't even think d20 Modern worked with Gamma World. There are, as others have mentioned, so many other DnD Settings that should probably merit consideration way before Gamma World would even be mentioned. Gamma World has a very core, dedicated following, and successive incarnations of the game haven't fared well.

As a person who still plays Gamma World 1E (Yes, the original, that came in a box, with the One Paperback Book and the huge, cartoonish dice) this just sounds silly.

I mean, the DnD 4E Mechanics to me, just don't fit the Gamma World game, and there isn't 'magic' in Gamma World. I didn't even think d20 Modern worked with Gamma World. There are, as others have mentioned, so many other DnD Settings that should probably merit consideration way before Gamma World would even be mentioned. Gamma World has a very core, dedicated following, and successive incarnations of the game haven't fared well.

Thank you.. Core, dedicated following.. those were the phrases I kept missing in my thoughts. I never got into GW too much (though I did make a mutant bear once.. fun one shot game)

As for the 'country building' part. That is more of a group thing. Most groups didn't get into it much, but I had one group that did..we had our own 'Dale' (Battledale) in the FR by the time we were 8th level (nasty underhanded bunch we were) and had a lot of tie ins.. like going after the Zhent raiding party that took our new smith, his family and 2 farmer familes.. that got ugly. By the end we were doing 'favors' with the other Dales (and the Sage of Shadowdale/Harpers) to keep our small community safte. By the time we hit 12th level the Mage of the group (me!) wanted her very own tower (and the locals wanted her out of the livery barn after the fifth explosion.. Wild Mage). We spent a week figuring out how to build it, and it took them like 4 days to build it. (Summon Earth Elemental x LOTS, Shape Stone scrolls and a druid to do the wood work LOVELY)

I happen to know that the Paizo Adventure Path 'Kingmaker' coming out over the next 6 months is entirely focused on founding and running a kingdom. The actual kingdom building 'rules' won't be until the second part, but...I'm personally wishing I had the funding to buy the entire adventure. Even if only to use the rules for other games.

But as to the other...I don't have the experience with Gamma World to make an informed opinion, though it seems odd.

That's pretty interesting really. I think it would be nice to have an intricate set of rules for trading and goods manufacturing. Not just something like determining how fast a character can forge a sword, but how many tons of raw ore an iron mine can dredge up and refine, and how much a blacksmith will pay for that iron. It would be really really hard to all put together, but I think a coherent economic system (which would likely be lots and lots of charts and tables, but could definately be abstracted down to a eurogame type system) could be really interesting for a kingdom building type game.

(and of course, it seems like a natural in a post apocalyptic game, considering that ensuring the survival of a community is one of those things that PCs end up doing more often than not.) I've experimented with gameplay where the PCs run caravans from city to city, wheeling and dealing goods like they're playing Elite (or more precisely, the social oreinted PCs lead the caravans, while the combat oriented PCs train the army back home.) The gameplay seems to be fun, but I feel a little annoyed that I just have to make up numbers for how much the PCs city produces and what the prices are in their destination cities. On the other hand, maybe things like the fact that sheep are cheaper in a city where shepards make up a signifigant portion of the population and weapons are more expensive in a city that's at war don't really need rules.

It would be cool but the problem with economic's is prices and by extension markets go up and down. Everything is in constant flux and changing fluidly. It would be hard to mimic that in a pen and paper RPG

oh and kingmaker sounds like a great excuse for a birthright themed game