Nowhere did I state that his observations were dishonest. It was his opinion, of which he is entitled. Furthermore, his letter was dripping with a condescending and condemning attitude. And that was the reason for my tongue in cheek comment.

How did Mr. Horn know the cyclist was commuting to work? Did he know him? And if he did, how far was his commute...5, 10, 20, 40 km? If it was a 5 km commute, with only 2 km of that on the highway, would that make a difference to anyone?

I couldn't say for sure, that I would necessarily do what that cyclist did. But that's because I don't know the details of the situation. Maybe you're more familiar with that stretch of highway than me. It's been two years since I cycled it last. Getting in and out of Vancouver via the Lougheed, if indeed that was what the cyclist was attempting, is still a major pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustnoone

We are all either part of a problem or part of a solution. I would suggest that taking a lane of a highway in any weather condition in any vehicle at 50km/h below the posted speed limit is being part of the problem.

Not necessarily. I don't mean to split hairs, but the problem is the weather. He could be a contributing aspect to a bigger, potential problem. But he is not part of the problem. Drivers who travel too fast for road conditions, are also a potential variable in this equation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustnoone

In fact, impeding traffic on a highway is most likely unlawful.

It probably is. And if the RCMP decided to ticket him, it would be for the judge to decide, extenuating circumstances or not, as to whether he was impeding traffic and/or an additional hazard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustnoone

As cyclists who commute under most conditions we are part of that solution and if for no other reason, we in a small way reduce congestion.

I don't totally agree with you there.

Here are some quick, yet loose numbers: 1.69 % of the employed Vancouverites commute by bike*. So depending which population you want to use, Vancouver proper (~600,000), or the GVA ( >2,000,000); then roughing the workforce at a conservative 20% - that's between 2,000 and 6,000 cycle commuters. Granted probably not all of them would drive if they couldn't cycle, but it's still a significant amount.

Here's a quote we've heard too: "One Less Car". By increasing congestion which increases the likelihood of accidents far more than decreasing speed increases safety the lone cyclist is really creating "Many More Cars".

I'm confused by that statement. Are you stating, that by reducing cars on the road, you're actually increasing cars on the road? Or do you mean congestion? They are not synonymous.

I also think that the saying ONE LESS CAR means a lot more than just potentially reducing traffic. What about pollution and conserving finite resources? Does that count?

And are you also saying that decreased congestion, reduces accidents more than decreased speed limits?

A saying that I like even more than ONE LESS CAR, is...

Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustnoone

We can hate the motorist, but in the 900 odd days I commuted in Vancouver, I was safely passed or given the lane by probably more than 50,000 of them. Or more precisely, by all but one car and one bus.

Firstly, I'm glad that your experience of cycling commuting in Vancouver was a positive one.

Secondly, who hates the motorists? I'm very aware of what they do, obviously, but I don't hate them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustnoone

There is a lot to be said for making a few common sense choices with respect to road use, not only for safety, but courtesy too.

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustnoone

If we choose the moral high ground for no other reason than because we can, we could easily find some of our highways closed to us by those who pass us everyday without complaint.

I don't mean to be contrary, but there are a lot of assumptions and judgements made by both drivers and cyclists, let alone Mr. Horn, you and me. There are also a lot of bad decisions made my drivers and cyclists. I just don't think that we know whether or not it was a bad decision, or just a motorist venting and stating it as such.

__________________
Life is either a wild adventure or nothing - Helen Keller

How did Mr. Horn know the cyclist was commuting to work? Did he know him? And if he did, how far was his commute...5, 10, 20, 40 km? If it was a 5 km commute, with only 2 km of that on the highway, would that make a difference to anyone?

I suggesting it is irrelevant what the cyclist is doing. On clear roads I cover 2 km in 3 to 3.5 minutes. I would cover approximately 10km in the same amount of time in a car. On the Lougheed, that makes a difference. Maybe not enough to drive someone insane, but probably. Thus I would suggest that taking a lane on Lougheed highway or any other highway is a bad idea. Now if for what ever reason, it takes 30 minutes to travel that same distance, it makes little difference why, but traffic congestion will be a problem. If it is the cause of one road user, that user is an idiot regardless of his personal plight. Yes, it makes a difference to other road users.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinninwheels

Not necessarily. I don't mean to split hairs, but the problem is the weather. He could be a contributing aspect to a bigger, potential problem. But he is not part of the problem. Drivers who travel too fast for road conditions, are also a potential variable in this equation.

Weather is not a problem in itself, but it is always a factor. If a cyclist rides without lights is the problem with the sun for being on the wrong side of the earth? Nature is mitigated by skill and choice of equipment. Failure to mitigate uncontrollable effects is the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinninwheels

Here are some quick, yet loose numbers: 1.69 % but it's still a significant amount.

1.69% is small. 2,000-6,000 commuters is not that significant. Is it even more than a minute of traffic on any major route in the GVRD? It is small enough though, that we should never see any negative press on the matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinninwheels

I'm confused by that statement. Are you stating, that by reducing cars on the road, you're actually increasing cars on the road? Or do you mean congestion? They are not synonymous. I also think that the saying ONE LESS CAR means a lot more than just potentially reducing traffic. What about pollution and conserving finite resources? Does that count?

What I am saying is 60 cars on the road one minute longer negates the reduced traffic, pollution reduction, and conservation made by taking one car off the road for an hour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinninwheels

And are you also saying that decreased congestion, reduces accidents more than decreased speed limits?

Sure, I'll say that. Are you saying that the most congested roads don't have the most accidents?

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinninwheels

..motorist venting and stating it as such.

Chances are. But try as I might, it's hard to find a positive spin for taking a lane of the lougheed on a bike.

I suggesting it is irrelevant what the cyclist is doing. On clear roads I cover 2 km in 3 to 3.5 minutes. I would cover approximately 10km in the same amount of time in a car. On the Lougheed, that makes a difference. Maybe not enough to drive someone insane, but probably. Thus I would suggest that taking a lane on Lougheed highway or any other highway is a bad idea. Now if for what ever reason, it takes 30 minutes to travel that same distance, it makes little difference why, but traffic congestion will be a problem. If it is the cause of one road user, that user is an idiot regardless of his personal plight. Yes, it makes a difference to other road users.

Weather is not a problem in itself, but it is always a factor. If a cyclist rides without lights is the problem with the sun for being on the wrong side of the earth? Nature is mitigated by skill and choice of equipment. Failure to mitigate uncontrollable effects is the problem.

1.69% is small. 2,000-6,000 commuters is not that significant. Is it even more than a minute of traffic on any major route in the GVRD? It is small enough though, that we should never see any negative press on the matter.

What I am saying is 60 cars on the road one minute longer negates the reduced traffic, pollution reduction, and conservation made by taking one car off the road for an hour.

Sure, I'll say that. Are you saying that the most congested roads don't have the most accidents?

Chances are. But try as I might, it's hard to find a positive spin for taking a lane of the lougheed on a bike.

We obviously see things differently. Your point of never taking the lane on a highway, is something that would be better discussed in A&S or VC, rather than the Vancouver thread.

__________________
Life is either a wild adventure or nothing - Helen Keller

I'm moving to Burnaby for a year and any local advice you could give me would be great. I'm from Edmonton and I've decided that I want to use this time as a pilot test for living carless. For now I've got two road bikes and a xc that I will be bringing with me. Getting to and from work should be easy since the company I work for is renting me and a couple of my coworkers a place close to our worksite(burnaby lake area) and if I absolutely have to I can catch a ride with them. So I guess Im just looking for advice on riding conditions year round. What months will be the worst to ride? How late into the year is there good road biking? Any group rides around? Good LBS in burnaby? As you can tell I have no experience with this area. Any help could be rewarded with a post-ride pint if you're up for a ride once I get there.

I'm moving to Burnaby for a year and any local advice you could give me would be great. I'm from Edmonton and I've decided that I want to use this time as a pilot test for living carless. For now I've got two road bikes and a xc that I will be bringing with me. Getting to and from work should be easy since the company I work for is renting me and a couple of my coworkers a place close to our worksite(burnaby lake area) and if I absolutely have to I can catch a ride with them. So I guess Im just looking for advice on riding conditions year round. What months will be the worst to ride? How late into the year is there good road biking? Any group rides around? Good LBS in burnaby? As you can tell I have no experience with this area. Any help could be rewarded with a post-ride pint if you're up for a ride once I get there.

The Central Valley Greenway has been a handy addition to the entire corridor from Vancouver to New Westminster.
I have friend that uses it to get from his house in East Vancouver (near Commercial Drive), all the way to the neighbourhood you will be working in...
Riding conditions in the winter a dependent on Nature; but most of the time the active ingredient in your ride will be WATER, and lots of it.
One has to be aware of the hazards of what water does to things like carpets of leaves on the road (much like an oil slick imo); and watch out for ice on the chillier/drier mornings (funnily enough it tends to be COLDER when it gets clear).
The worst months would be Dec-Feb. With the ONLY concern being if we get snow.
One can expect to be able to cycle nearly year-round as we do not get cold enough for snow to stay for that long (except when it dumps like it did last Christmas; but that even cleared-up after a couple/three weeks).
LBS's that I know of in Burnaby are the Bike Doctor on Kingsway (near Metrotown):http://www.thebikedr.com/
Jubilee Cycle (also near Metrotown):http://www.jubileecycle.com/
And Sharpey's - These guys are more MTB oriented; but they do know their stuff (on Hastings in North Burnaby):http://www.sharpeyscycles.com/

Thanks that's what I wanted to know. Once I find out exactly where our place is I'll make the decision to bring my car or not. I miss the days of being carless but I do remember the times where it was kind of a hassle. I was living in Montreal too so it was usually faster to just ride the metro. I just don't want to always be bugging my coworkers to take me grocery shopping because it's too much trouble to take transit or something.

Thanks that's what I wanted to know. Once I find out exactly where our place is I'll make the decision to bring my car or not. I miss the days of being carless but I do remember the times where it was kind of a hassle. I was living in Montreal too so it was usually faster to just ride the metro. I just don't want to always be bugging my coworkers to take me grocery shopping because it's too much trouble to take transit or something.

I guess in the meantime I will hunt down some good rain gear.

You will be close to several Grocery outlets.
It should also be pointed out that there is now a Skytrain line running down the Lougheed Highway.
Which, judging by your description; will be very near your place of work (a few short blocks...).

^+1 for the Central Valley Greenway (CVG). It runs like a spine across Vancouver, Burnaby and New West. I use it on my commute to work via bike. Some stretches are great. Some not so great.... like the Sperling/Winston section. But overall, it's better than nothing. What I appreciate about it is that the CVG is built to avoid hills. Once you hit Gilmore area, there's a MUP running underneath the Skytrain guide rail all the way to VCC.

You will be close to several Grocery outlets.
It should also be pointed out that there is now a Skytrain line running down the Lougheed Highway.
Which, judging by your description; will be very near your place of work (a few short blocks...).

Note that on weekends, and evenings (non-rush hour times): You can take your bike on the Skytrain.

How late into the year is there good road biking? Any group rides around? Good LBS in burnaby? As you can tell I have no experience with this area. Any help could be rewarded with a post-ride pint if you're up for a ride once I get there.

Road season is pretty much over for the year, but there's still a few group rides happening. Sunday Mornings at 9am one of the LBSs runs a club ride. The shop is called La Bicicletta, and they're the predominant high-end road cycling shop in vancouver. They're located on Broadway, over by MEC, and that's where the Sunday morning rides start from.

Like I said though, road season is really winding down, and soon everyone will be heading to the Burnaby Velodrome for track season. Something I strongly suggest you check out, by the way, because track racing is awesoooome.

VACC doesn't do anything to do with racing. The impression I've got from the VACC is that they're a bunch of casual riders on hybrid bikes (shudder) that occasionally take short, slow rides on unpaved trails in the suburbs. Not my cup of tea.

VACC doesn't do anything to do with racing. The impression I've got from the VACC is that they're a bunch of casual riders on hybrid bikes (shudder) that occasionally take short, slow rides on unpaved trails in the suburbs. Not my cup of tea.

Like I said though, road season is really winding down, and soon everyone will be heading to the Burnaby Velodrome for track season. Something I strongly suggest you check out, by the way, because track racing is awesoooome.

Thanks a lot buddy you probably just cost me a couple thousand dollars. I'm going to come check out the velodrome, I'm going to like it, and then I'm going to have to buy another damn bike.

From the info you guys have given me I can't wait to get down there now.

Thanks a lot buddy you probably just cost me a couple thousand dollars. I'm going to come check out the velodrome, I'm going to like it, and then I'm going to have to buy another damn bike.

From the info you guys have given me I can't wait to get down there now.

Muahahaha. Excellent.

FYI, the track has rental bikes, so you can go down there and try your hand at it without investing in a track bike of your own. Just gotta bring your own shoes and pedals, of the clipless variety of your choice; something you already have if you're a road cyclist. I believe the rental fee is $15, plus whatever the drop-in fee is, which is around the same.

There is a couple days of training you have to do before you're allowed to race on the track, though. They run the course at the 'drome pretty regularly, and you'll learn all the basics of how to stay on the track without falling off, which is harder than you might think.