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hey everyone, been a while since I've posted here. Love how there's now a 'MMO' topic prefix

anyway on to my post.
I work on a 3D Action RPG in my spare time, [here's] a gameplay video of it so far, yes it's too fast and messy but you get the idea. The game is thought of as a 3rd person game but 1st person is also included (to please players' preference).
It's a single-player game, but thought of as if AI players were human players (ie. they're not lesser unarmed monsters, they have the same moves as human players), and even as a PvP multiplayer game (future feature).
I'm a regular at the UDK forums and a few days ago someone (who I sometimes even talk to on skype) posted his WIP thread, and while his game was purely action, the fighting system idea was similar to what I have/want (basically a slightly different + improved version of Mount & Blade's). I asked what his ideas for improvement were but he wasn't up for the design discussion, and I was left wanting to discuss it.

So basically I have something similar to Mount & Blade's melee and ranged combat. Mine is slightly faster but still without becoming confusing (at least that's what Im trying to). Blocking is just like M&B's automatic blocking mode (ie. you don't have to direct your parries, just time them right).
Improvements on my end including the ability to use a roll move as a dodge, and using A+click / S+click / D+click (only if you're standing still, doesn't work if you're already moving) to do a left / backward / right attack, to make up a little for the fact that regular attacks are always aimed to the front which limits multi-enemy combat very much.

For those (few) not familiar with Mount&Blade's combat, you can choose one attack of 4 possible ones: left-to-right slash, right-to-left slash, up-to-down slash, and forward thrust. this is done by moving your camera-controlling mouse to the left/right/up/down and then clicking the mouse button. might sound a little dizzy-involving but after 3 minutes of getting used to it, it works quite good.

I've also thought about using combos but I'm not sure it fits with the whole "I control the direction of the attack" concept. Other games like Skyrim, Prince of Persia or Assassin's Creed base their combat attacks in combos which, while they encourage a click-bashing experience and no strategy, keep things a little interesting visually (except for maybe PoP: warrior within whose combo choices in theory make you think of strategy, though it is itself discussable because in the end using one combo instead of another would cause very little difference strategic-wise).

So how would you tie in combo features in a M&B-like control-attack-direction system? would you at all?
My proposed idea: after an attack, tie-in the best next attack choice in a better way, and to impose a penalty for the worst next attack choice. For example: say you do a sword slashing attack from right to left. the best next attack (based on body/arm/hand flow logic) would be to do another slashing attack, this time from left to right. the worst next attack would be to do the same right-to-left slashing attack again because it'd require the body+arm to re-position again at the right side to start the attack. doing an up-to-down attack or a thrust would cause no penalty, or mean any advantage.
so penalty, advantage? well the penalty for choosing the worst next attack choice would be that the attack would take much longer to get executed, while the advantage for choosing the best next attack would be a much faster next attack, maybe with a different attack animation to keep things visually interesting.
all of this would need to be explained to the player by the "tutorial trainer guy" in-game

I've also thought about a 'Dark Messiah'-like push/stun kick (which I think was later introduced in M&B, but I can't be sure) and other 'Dark Messiah'-like situational moves, and maybe a hold-click power attack.
I'm here to discuss though, so I'm ready to hear what you guys have to say Edited September 27, 2012 by Chosker

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I didn't knew M&B-control before (at least not by the name), but it sure is interesting. Maybe you could consider changing the input from "move in direction then click" to "drag in direction", similar to mouse-gestures. This would give the player more reliable controls since he will always know exactly which of his movements are interpreted as attack and which are normal camera-movements.

It doesn't seem like you're going to, but including classical combos (rtl,rtl, stab, ltr releases the dance-of-the-firesword-combo) would highly contradict the fighting system since M&B-fighting is all about giving the player more control than a simple "do attack now", whereas combos do the exact opposite, temporarily taking control away from the player in favor of sparkling eyecandy.

The advantage/penalty-system on the other hand sounds like a really good addition to the system since it leaves full control to the player while including the logical consequences a good/bad fighting style has on your performance, therefore encouraging strategical thinking. If possible, try to include the ASD-attacks as well since those also have great impact on your performance in real combat. If possible, get a friend who tolerates some quirks and have him take the time while you grab a fake sword/a stick and actually try the different combos and their impact on your fight-performance (not on your friend of course ^^).
However, I wouldn't think that it's really needed in the tutorial. Sure if you want to take the player by the hand, include it, but looking at the (for an indie) decent graphics, most players will consider that you're game features a somewhat sophisticated fighting system. If you use different animations and execution times for the penalties and advantages, players will recognize that and have a feeling of accomplishment for figuring out the better ways of fighting all on their own.

Now for the extra stuff. I know, a lot of games do it, but I really don't like power-attacks. Why? In real combat, your attack simply doesn't get stronger by holding your sword in the air for some time (on the contrary, your arm gets tired). And for the "that's just a metaphor for hitting harder": If you don't hit hard all the time with a sword, you might just as well throw away your weapon while insulting the opponents mother to make sure he won't show any mercy. The only way to actually hit significantly harder is by one or two steps inrun and that is really hard to accomplish once you've closed the distance for the first time.

As for the push, I can see that working if it's integrated coherently. I don't know what action currently is set on the rightclick, but let's imagine it's the block. If so we could extend these to general "blunt actions" as opposed to the left-clicks "sharp actions", meaning that a single rightclick results in a regular block, whereas a upwards rightdrag would result in a push, and, while we're at it, a sideways rightdrag could be a directional attack with the pommel to the head. Now include these into the advantage/penalty-system as well and you'll see how far I've been carried away ^^.

still, I hope you find one or two of these points to be helpful,

bw,
Tobl

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The M&B idea sound good, the character/camera following your mouse movement seems immersive enough, but I would be careful about combining a sequence of such move-attack gestures, especially when breaking the flow (opposite direction).

After the player executed an attack, he will most likely try to refocus on the opponent. To leave this intact, I would sugguest to only use the mouse button for the next combo and leave the mouse movement for camera correction or do an autocorrection of the camera location. I.e. a short click will execute a fast stab with the weapon handle, holding the mouse button for longer, the player will prepare a power attack in the opposite direction and if the player holds the button long enough, the character will spin around his own to execute some impressive final strike.

After that you could continue with a move-attack etc.

Btw. your game looks cool, good work

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Tobl: I do find your points helpful, read on
There's another thing that M&B does (already implemented in my game too), that if you press and hold the attack button (without releasing it) the character will start doing the attack animation and will hold it right before the swing actually starts, until you release the attack button. this way if you want you can prepare and hold the attack at a safe distance and then get close and release it, gaining a fraction of a second but making it easier to see it coming (and therefore block/parry it).
in M&B you can hold the attack for as much time as you want, but I think there should be a time limit (somewhere between 2-3 seconds max) because logic also tells me the guy's arm will get tired.
anyway that is the reason why a clickhold-then-move scheme for attacks wouldn't work (instead of a move-then-click).

Ineed I'm pretty much against including classical combos because as you say, contradict the whole "I have full control" concept. But I do want some extra visual flair and variety because a total of 4 attacks can become boring

The next move advantage/penalty system is growing more on me, I'll most likely include it. They definately would involve using distinct animations, so maybe as you say the whole thing might be visible and clear enough to not need to include it in the tutorial.
And the ASD attacks will definately go in as well. To activate them, the player will need to stop for a second and then press A/S/D+attack. why the need to stop? so that if you're already moving and strafing but still want to attack to the front, you don't accidentally get an attack to the side.

I'm not too fond of the power attacks either (but hey I need ideas!). but then I'd disagree a little about its usefulness. In a regular attack you do the swing with your arm which gets impulsed by the rest of your body's movement, right? well a power attack just involves much more impulse movement from the torso and legs (and therefore a stronger hit). the problem is that after the attack you can't go back to a stance/defensive position nearly as easily because the same extra impulse has already thrown you off your balance (ie. you're probably either near the floor or you did a 180º turn and are now looking the other way).
power-attack-theory apart, the classical "click and hold" power attack wouldn't work here because of the whole "hold the attack" thing I explained before.

For the next part let me explain a little more about the attack controls in my game. In M&B there's mouse1 to attack and mouse2 to block. In my game each of the 2 mouse buttons correspond to an action involving each arm (much like Skyrim). If you have a shield in your secondary hand you can use mouse2 to do a shield bash, while another sword allows you to dual-wield (already implemented). if your hand is empty you'd get an extra set of unarmed actions like a punch, push or drag.
In adittion there's an extra button used to block/parry (mouse3 if you will), but I don't want to make the block/parry have different directional controls that do other things (like push, pommel hit), because I can see it becoming a pain to be able to perform the block and not do something else accidentally.
And that's why I'm considering yet another attack-involving button specific for the push/kick (like Dark Messiah). This one could indeed be directional, so I would be able to cram in the kick, push, pommel attack, and 4th action on it. However I worry that 4 combat-involving buttons might be too much.

Ashaman: precisely, and the next move direction penalty system is my take at making the attack flow more natural.
However if I leave a second/third attack with pure click it'd be both confusing, and going against the whole "I control the attacks" concept (vs. the "automatic combo" one, which as I said I mostly want to avoid).
In practice, camera correction after an attack isn't a problem at all. The input system is sensitive enough to be able to choose an attack by moving the mouse just a little and not having the camera way out.

Yet another thing I added for visual flair (not present in M&B) is a series of finishing moves, very much like in Assassin's Creed. If the enemy you're aiming at has very low health (ie. one hit will kill him), and you're close enough and he's not blocking, using any attack will ignore your attack direction animation and perform a finisher move in which you do lose control of your character while the animation lasts. In here it's not much of a problem because the enemy will lose control as well (besides ending up dead).
The finisher move is completely situational, as in, a different animation will be used depending on the position between you and your enemy (ie. being on the front, slightly to one side or the other, a back stab, etc).
For now the finisher move is completely unblockable: right after pressing the attack button both the attacker and the enemy lose control over the character, leaving no time for the enemy to try a block/parry. The reason for this was purely technical: both fighters need to play each an animation in sync (the enemy's pain/death animation corresponds with the attacker's finish animation), and so I can't have them moving around and breaking the visual sync.
This makes it harder / more exciting when you're at very low health because you cannot block/parry. I fear however, it might turn into frustrating instead. I believe I'd able to add that extra time for the enemy to block/parry though, the question is if I should.

Also in M&B you can perform a feint by changing the direction of the attack to confuse the enemy. to do this one must prepare and hold an attack, then move the mouse to another direction and press the block button. I haven't implemented this into my game, and I'm looking for input here as well.
having to press block sounds a little unintuitive though (ie. you must know this already or find it by mistake, but I'd never guess it thinking with logic). I've thought about making it by simply moving the mouse again once the attack is being held. does that sound like it could be confusing or messy?

And yet another thing: As I described above doing a parry requires you press the button in time and the character will automatically adjust the parry to the incoming attack direction (while blocking with a shield "just" works). However a lot of M&B players (don't have a statistic here) seem to be fond of M&B's "manual parry" mode, in which you must manually direct the parry direction to match the incoming attack direction. This is also present in the upcoming game Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, which has a similar combat system as M&B.
To me the manual parry mode has always been an innecessarily difficult feature, but some players do like the challenge. thoughts?

thanks for helping me here, and thanks for the positive comments on my game

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Counterattacks: In an effort to try to make it a little more of a "dance of swords", I've thought of counterattacks.
The mechanic of it would be that first, of course the defending guy would need to press the block button so that his block/parry matches the incoming attack. knowing that his block/parry will be successful and without releasing the block button, he'd need to press the attack button at the precise time the incoming attack hits his shield / parrying weapon.
the result would be a different "rebound" animation in which the defending guy would push the attacker's weapon away (as opposed to just blocking his trajectory), followed by the actual counterattack (all in the same attack button click).
this way it requires timing and skill from the defending player (as opposed to "I can counterattack every single time", pretty much like Assassin's Creed). But on the contrary, this mechanic doesn't involve any penalties for a failed counterattack try. thoughts?

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But on the contrary, this mechanic doesn't involve any penalties for a failed counterattack try. thoughts?

Attempting to push the blade back might set you off-balance a little if you missed your timing, as you're expecting that resistance to be there, and your recovery time is extended. From there it's easier for the attacker to go around your defense and get a free hit or buy some time to adjust their positioning.

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The issue with making an experience deeper is, that it often gets only more complex. I failed at making my combat system deeper, so here are just some general advices.

1. Make baby steps. Start with a simple M&B system and give it to your testers. Refactor it with the given feedback and increase its complexity just a little bit. It is just very frustrating to design a complex/deep 5 step system which fails at the second step.

2. Have you analysed the combat system of Fable 3 ? Take a look at it and analyse the reactions of the players.

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Do you know Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy?
This game also had a similar fight system, I played that for a while online, it was deeper than you first think. They sort of implemented combos, when you attacked with W+D+Click, your next attack is W+A+Click, your attack is slightly different and also does different damage/animation.

But on the contrary, this mechanic doesn't involve any penalties for a failed counterattack try. thoughts?

In reallife, a failed counterattack could leave a special region of you unguarded. You could think of providing bonus damage if you 'counter counter attack' at the right place.

This is purely my opinion: I don't like the dodge roll. In a sword fight, nobody rolls around for a reason .

Now for the extra stuff. I know, a lot of games do it, but I really don't like power-attacks. Why? In real combat, your attack simply doesn't get stronger by holding your sword in the air for some time (on the contrary, your arm gets tired)

You are sort of right about that one. You don't swing in a huge circle, the opponent sees that attack from miles away. But Power attacks/combos are important, they are especially effective when you are fighting more defensive and the opponent thinks he has the upper hand, starts to power himself out and then suddenly you respond loud and clear.

I myself am a fan of martial arts, I am actively fighting full contact ( I am not the greatest, still learning ). If you want to go for more realism, I may have some useful input.
Edited October 4, 2012 by Bluefirehawk

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Attempting to push the blade back might set you off-balance a little if you missed your timing, as you're expecting that resistance to be there, and your recovery time is extended. From there it's easier for the attacker to go around your defense and get a free hit or buy some time to adjust their positioning.

yeah that could work

1. Make baby steps. Start with a simple M&B system and give it to your testers. Refactor it with the given feedback and increase its complexity just a little bit. It is just very frustrating to design a complex/deep 5 step system which fails at the second step.

2. Have you analysed the combat system of Fable 3 ? Take a look at it and analyse the reactions of the players.

yeah I will make baby steps. one thing at a time, see if it's fun / works, try to balance it and go on.
Haven't tried Fable3. I loved the first one but when I tried Fable2 I just couldn't get involved with it and felt too simple. probably me just growing up
nothing of what I remember from the first one would be of use in here though. is there anything worth noticing from Fable3 that could be relevant here?

Do you know Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy?
This game also had a similar fight system, I played that for a while online, it was deeper than you first think. They sort of implemented combos, when you attacked with W+D+Click, your next attack is W+A+Click, your attack is slightly different and also does different damage/animation.

In reallife, a failed counterattack could leave a special region of you unguarded. You could think of providing bonus damage if you 'counter counter attack' at the right place.

This is purely my opinion: I don't like the dodge roll. In a sword fight, nobody rolls around for a reason .

You are sort of right about that one. You don't swing in a huge circle, the opponent sees that attack from miles away. But Power attacks/combos are important, they are especially effective when you are fighting more defensive and the opponent thinks he has the upper hand, starts to power himself out and then suddenly you respond loud and clear.

I myself am a fan of martial arts, I am actively fighting full contact ( I am not the greatest, still learning ). If you want to go for more realism, I may have some useful input.

I played Jedi Academy, mostly multiplayer with my friends at Lan parties. It was fun, however I never found any strategy on fights at all: to me the pure melee could almost be reduced to "constantly moving back and forth and circle-strafe while you do attack mashing", then mixed with the saber throw and force powers. maybe it was just me not getting the deepness of it, but all in all it was too fast for any real strategy to take place.

counter-counter-attack? uhmm interesting. I think that doesn't sound possible: for a counter-attack you're required to block/parry the attack first, and if you add up the quickness of the first counter-attack to the mini-stun the first block/parry caused, I don't think there will be time at all for him to recover and be able to parry. yes I could code that time, after all it's my own system, but wouldn't that make counter-attacks just plain slow?

the dodge roll is meant only as a perk for high-agility characters. this is an RPG after all, and to me specialization is meant to be visible with moves and not just "I wear light leather, and you look like a turtle".
that said, what's wrong with the dodge roll? I only imagine it as a last-resort dodging move, very risky to use (leaving you much more vulnerable) instead of a usual thing. but again, I'm here for opinions

I'm not going for 100% realism but I do like a somewhat high degree of it, specially noting common sense. so I'm open for all input

also, what about being able to throw your weapon? I mean any weapon. you throw it and it doesn't magically grow back at your hand, you lose it and need to go pick it up again.
A 'throw your weapon' thing was present in a somewhat old game called Rune (had an expansion called Halls of Valhalla), which had deathmatch multiplayer with third person combat (throwing your weapon needed crosshair aiming). Thing is, throwing your weapon would do a crapload of damage (usually a kill on anyone that wasn't at 100% health), and since you could do a weapon quickswap (to keep a spare weapon if your throw failed) and pick up any weapon from the floor, it could be easily exploited.

My game already has quickswapping, and my idea here would be to make weapon picking an easy thing to do (if your hand is empty and you pick it up it's then auto-equipped), and if you're on "battle mode" (press the unsheath weapon button, much like in Skyrim) you should be able to pick up any object (a mug at a bar, a stick, a rock) and hit with it or throw it to the enemy. would a resulting weapon "roast chicken" vs "bread loaf" bar fight sound too weird? maybe funny?
oh yeah, that and the ocasional high-agility character disarm skill (which would throw the enemy's weapon to the floor), and the more rare parries that would cause one or maybe even both swords to be accidentally let go because of the strength of the hit. or would that be too frustrating?

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That's not what i meant with the counter- counter attack, maybe the naming is bad.
I meant that after a counter attack that failed, that missed for whatever reason, you generally have an area of your body unguarded. When a skillful player then attacks this region with a normal attack he gets some attack bonus (damage/critical hit/whatever). That was my idea, I may have described it misleading.

the dodge roll is meant only as a perk for high-agility characters. this is an RPG after all, and to me specialization is meant to be visible with moves and not just "I wear light leather, and you look like a turtle".
...
I'm not going for 100% realism but I do like a somewhat high degree of it, specially noting common sense. so I'm open for all input

Like I've said, it is purely my taste. If Diablo went for realism, it wouldn't be the game it is . There is nothing wrong with the mechanic, just me not liking rolls to dodge melee attacks.

(press the unsheath weapon button, much like in Skyrim) you should be able to pick up any object (a mug at a bar, a stick, a rock) and hit with it or throw it to the enemy. would a resulting weapon "roast chicken" vs "bread loaf" bar fight sound too weird? maybe funny?

Actually, I think this is one solid cool idea. I heard of a Samurai Apprentice, his master sent him to do normal housework stuff (get water, clean up, cook). The master often ambushed his unarmed apprentice until he learned to defend himself with everything he had. So I think it is cool, funny, and has a lot of potential.

These are some general suggestions:

Managing your endurance is very important in fighting. If you like an endurance system, it is an easy way to add depth and thought in your fights.

If you swing into the void, it takes more time to get back in your base position, it is also more exhausting.

I heard that swordfighters (without shields) try to deflect the enemy's blows.

Your stance is your life, it is highly desirable for you to weaken your enemy's stand. Lowkicks f*cking hurt, after a few well placed ones, you can't walk anymore, you are unable to fight. Seriously, they hurt like hell.

If you are out to kill your enemy, a quick kick against the knee may render the enemy unable to stand, and to fight.

Distance is king

I don't have time to write anything more, just use what you think makes sense, but you seem like the guy who knows what he wants.
If you want to get ideas about swordfight techniques, search for "Zornhau", it a german swordmaster wrote a book about swordfight, some techniques are still around today.

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I meant that after a counter attack that failed, that missed for whatever reason, you generally have an area of your body unguarded. When a skillful player then attacks this region with a normal attack he gets some attack bonus (damage/critical hit/whatever). That was my idea, I may have described it misleading.

I see what you mean now.
I've thought this a little more through and I'll just implement some sort of "body balance" mechanic: failed regular attacks (swings at air), failed counterattacks, attacks that are parried/blocked offensively and defensively, received impacts; all those (and any other I might think of) will all cause different "off-balance" animations + ministuns (that will last less or more depending on the case), and will temporarily alter an internal float var that will serve as a multiplier for incoming damage while they last (again here, less or more depending on the case).
the idea is to make alterations in body balance affect both damage and movement, as well as their visual representations.

Actually, I think this is one solid cool idea. I heard of a Samurai Apprentice, his master sent him to do normal housework stuff (get water, clean up, cook). The master often ambushed his unarmed apprentice until he learned to defend himself with everything he had. So I think it is cool, funny, and has a lot of potential.

glad you like it, now I'm yet to see if it ends up feeling fluid and not awkward when implemented.

These are some general suggestions:

Managing your endurance is very important in fighting. If you like an endurance system, it is an easy way to add depth and thought in your fights.

I already have an endurance system. every action reduces the player's stamina from a regenerating stamina bar. for now I have it set up so that if the stamina bar is empty you can't do those actions anymore (sprint, attack, jump, block, etc - but can still move), and stamina will renegerate at different rates if standing, walking or running. I plan on improving it though, not by making such actions impossible to do, but by making them much slower and reducing body balance much further if stamina is low/depleted.

If you swing into the void, it takes more time to get back in your base position, it is also more exhausting.

I heard that swordfighters (without shields) try to deflect the enemy's blows.

taken note of swinging into the void.
as for deflecting enemy's blows, that's what I've been referring to as "parry" all along. unless you're talking about something else entirely.

Your stance is your life, it is highly desirable for you to weaken your enemy's stand. Lowkicks f*cking hurt, after a few well placed ones, you can't walk anymore, you are unable to fight. Seriously, they hurt like hell.

If you are out to kill your enemy, a quick kick against the knee may render the enemy unable to stand, and to fight.

note taken.

Distance is king

it is indeed. my system is already very dependant on distance. hit detection is made using multiple points along the weapon blade, so the closer you are = more blade points hit = more damage dealt.

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"as for deflecting enemy's blows, that's what I've been referring to as "parry" all along. unless you're talking about something else entirely."

Theres a big practical difference between a static block, and deflecting a sword ... generally blocks are done with the front/true/long edge, and deflections are done with the false/short/back edge. An incoming sword with just be stopped, or maybe bounce a little bit, when reversed by a block. But if you deflect it with the false edge, it goes off and down to the side. Oh. Is that a massive hole I can counter-attack through ? Yes, yes it is. Well, then

Id suggest that the toon blocks automatically, but only does a fancy back-edge deflection when told to.

"In a regular attack you do the swing with your arm which gets impulsed by the rest of your body's movement, right? well a power attack just involves much more impulse movement from the torso and legs (and therefore a stronger hit). the problem is that after the attack you can't go back to a stance/defensive position nearly as easily because the same extra impulse has already thrown you off your balance (ie. you're probably either near the floor or you did a 180º turn and are now looking the other way)." Yes. Thats exactly how it works. A little back-edge cut aimed at the wrist and powered from the wrist is still a cut, and your feet are still positioned to defend you (usually by GTFO-ing in the appropriate direction). But a cut where the feet are committed to the attack - for example, by powering a cut with a hip flick or a sidestep - is far more powerful.

"I plan on improving it though, not by making such actions impossible to do, but by making them much slower and reducing body balance much further if stamina is low/depleted." There are few more frustrating things in a fight than the eye seeing a hole the exhausted arm cant hit through.

"counter-counter-attack? uhmm interesting. I think that doesn't sound possible: for a counter-attack you're required to block/parry the attack first, and if you add up the quickness of the first counter-attack to the mini-stun the first block/parry caused, I don't think there will be time at all for him to recover and be able to parry. yes I could code that time, after all it's my own system, but wouldn't that make counter-attacks just plain slow?" Heck yeah thats possible. Feint from just outside distance without committing the feet, draw the stop-thrust and then launch the counter attack down another line, committing the feet with a diagonal step to make it the real attack while simultaneously evading their stop-thrust.

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it is indeed. my system is already very dependant on distance. hit detection is made using multiple points along the weapon blade, so the closer you are = more blade points hit = more damage dealt.

That's the bad thing with not having enough time. This is cool and part of it what I wanted to write. Yet I am still in a hurry so I write this as fast as I can:
Distance can work both ways.
The best example is the badr hari vs semmy schilt fight in 2009:

Hari is far the smaller guy, if Schilt manages to keep him at distance, he has little to no chance landing a hit while being under constant pressure. So he marches in, Schilt is a very good distance fighter but he couldn't keep him at distance.
If you have a long sword, it can also mean your doom if the enemy knows how. But it is generally the harder strategy.
I also wanted to write more, but time is up, see ya!