Rag
Doll Kung Fu, a wildly entertaining new game from game designer Mark Healey, is
available now via Steam for just $14.95.

Featuring a wide collection of single and multiplayer games plus outlandish cut
scenes inspired by classic Kung Fu cinema, Rag Doll Kung Fu provides one of the
most creative and unique game experiences delivered in years.

The game is the brainchild of artist and designer Mark Healey (who moonlights as
a lead artist at Lionhead Entertainment). During last yearís Game Developer
Conference, Healey presented Rag Doll to industry colleagues. Immediately after
this presentation, several Valve employees invited Healey to visit Valve and
discuss Steam distribution of Rag Doll Kung Fu.

The problem is that it isn't easy to compromise as many of the points we dispute are mutually-exclusive. I really like the idea of forced updates, you really dislike it. I think we just have to agree to disagree.

There is room for compromise if you look for it. Forced updates could be an optional settings like automatic updates are now. The default could still be "on" for the newbies. Or, for single-player mode where there is no absolute need for forced updates, the default could be off or it could always be off. Even Microsoft does not force critical updates for Windows, and Valve certainly should not force updates for its games.

Third, stop making updates mandatory especially before a game will launch. Allow the user to go ahead and play and then update later if he chooses to update at all.

I appreciate that it can be annoying waiting for an update to download (and Steam servers being too busy for big updates) but it means that everyone is on the same version - no splintering in the userbase. It is particularly helpful for new users as they want to install the game and play and don't want to worry about finding patches or having few people to play against because they don't want to update - it also prevents them being attacked via exploits that tend to exist in launch products, or from crashes that were fixed in the first patch.

The problem is that it isn't easy to compromise as many of the points we dispute are mutually-exclusive. I really like the idea of forced updates, you really dislike it. I think we just have to agree to disagree.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that at all... I'm not really a boycotting type. Plus, I have a lot of respect for Monolith.

That said, my opinion from playing the FEAR single player demo I think NOLF2 and Tron were better games because there was more variety in the levels and what the player could do, ie. hacking, lock picking, stealth, and so on.

I find it interesting that Contract JACK probably had the same style of game-play FEAR has, yet most gamers shunned it because it was lacking the features that made NOLF such a great game. Hell even JACK had vehicles...

So Riley, your main arguement against Steam is that Valve could turn around and charge you for access to it and that Valve can actively enforce their EULA?

Those are two main problems, yes. Other important ones are the forced updates, the SDK requiring Steam and the entire games to be installed to use it, and the GCF file nonsense with its wasted disk space from the duplicate files.

However, with Steam Valve can push updates to prevent crashing, to fix glitches that would have been detrimental to gameplay

I hate pushed and mandatory updates. I, not Valve, should be able to choose whether to update my game especially whether to forgo an update so I can immediately play.

alternative services would almost certainly spring up (like BNet did).

And Valve would use DMCA takedown notices and/or sue them just like Vivendi/Blizzard did.

It's the exact same with Windows XP and product activaton...

If you think my railing on Steam is intense, don't get me started on Microsoft's activation. However, unlike Valve at least Microsoft does forgo activation for customers with Select or other volume license agreements.

I obviously agree that Steam can be improved but it looks like Valve are working on it, however slowly it seems to take them to get there.

The three biggest things Valve could do to vastly improve Steam would be to make Steam fail open, i.e. make it so that if the user can't login to Steam and doesn't store his credentials on his PC, he can still play offline. Second, ditch the GCF files or at least make an official GCF extraction and creation tool available in the SDK AND stop copying contents of the GCF files into each game's subdirectory. Third, stop making updates mandatory especially before a game will launch. Allow the user to go ahead and play and then update later if he chooses to update at all.

despite the fact that we've got roughly 2 pages of argument over the term "rent". In what universe does that actually make sense?

Wow, you really like to argue about semantics, don't you? The fact that the word "rent" was used in the quoted dictionary definition of lease posted in this thread demonstrates that "rent" is the more common term. That is what I meant by it being a "clearer" term, i.e. more commonly or easily understood.

Nexuiz is pretty cool... I gave it a shot last month. I liked it but it seemed a little rough. The animations weren't very smooth and I thought the net code was shitty.

Nexuiz was greatly improved in the v1.21 update. I had previously played the original release, and I was quite pleasantly surprised when I upgraded to v1.21. Yes, the animations in Nexuiz could use some work, but at least the game is totally open source including the media assets, so if you don't like them you can improve them.

Will you be picking up Quake4?

Not until it is I can get it for about $20. Judging from the preview videos and reviews, it's not worth more than that to me.

Alien arena looks like it's come a long way since the last time I saw it.

Alien Arena has some nice artwork in it. If you played an early version of it or any of the Code Red games, you should take another look.

The FEAR demo was cool... but for some reason I think I enjoyed playing the CoD2 demo more.

I really like the multiplayer even though it doesn't have vehicles in it which is something I usually prefer. The heavy weapons combined with the physics really make the game.

You are absolutely right that I waste way too much time on this forum.

Yes, you do. Your comments tend to condescend, your posts tend to make it sound like you're the only person who could possibly be right, and most terrible of all, you don't seem to consider *anyone* else's argument, instantly discounting them. While a good portion of the time you are right, your petty thoughts regarding Steam come full circle and it always amounts to the same thing: If you don't like Steam, don't fucking use it.

So Riley, your main arguement against Steam is that Valve could turn around and charge you for access to it and that Valve can actively enforce their EULA?

I appreciate where you are coming from but everything in life has its risks... and at the absolute worst you lose £30 - quick, let me remortgage my house. However, with Steam Valve can push updates to prevent crashing, to fix glitches that would have been detrimental to gameplay, add levels, content, improve security to prevent hackers and other parties that negatively impact gameplay, etc. Also, if Valve were to start charging or discontinue the service then they would destroy their userbase and alternative services would almost certainly spring up (like BNet did).

It's the exact same with Windows XP and product activaton... sure they could turn around and charge you or Microsoft could go bust and shut down the activation system, but at the end of the day that it just isn't very probable. Sure, my house isn't comet proof but does that keep me awake at night? I obviously agree that Steam can be improved but it looks like Valve are working on it, however slowly it seems to take them to get there.

I'm indifferent toward most topics... I just like gaming. Surely you can see why someone would think you are trolling, though.

Nexuiz is pretty cool... I gave it a shot last month. I liked it but it seemed a little rough. The animations weren't very smooth and I thought the net code was shitty. Still I think the developers have put forth a good effort the graphics were nice and you really can't beat the price. Will you be picking up Quake4?

Alien arena looks like it's come a long way since the last time I saw it.

The FEAR demo was cool... but for some reason I think I enjoyed playing the CoD2 demo more. Odd since I'm kinda sick of the WWII games and I really do prefer horror.

As evident by the dispute over the meaning of lease in this thread, "rent" is a clearer term.

You know, I was actually trying to take you seriously until you posted this. So the fact that there's some dispute over the word "lease" makes "rent" the clearer term, despite the fact that we've got roughly 2 pages of argument over the term "rent". In what universe does that actually make sense?

You are absolutely right that I waste way too much time on this forum. Whether you find my posts to be "trolling" simply depends upon whether you agree with them or not.

Seriously... I'd really like to know, what PC games are you currently playing?

I usually only have a few games installed at any one time although I do have lots of games in my collection. Lately I have been playing a couple of open source games (Code Red Alien Arena and Nexuiz) along with the Fear multiplayer demo.

And I said there is because Valve actually has the means to enforce that rental. As I have stated over and over and over, consumer software should NOT be licensed using such terms or agreements. I single out Valve for criticism because:

1. Valve's products are very popular.

2. I am actually one of its customers.

3. Valve is more than a paper tiger on this issue. It actually has the means to enforce such terms on its customers and does.

Then use the word "lease". I'm pretty sure people have actually heard of the word.

As evident by the dispute over the meaning of lease in this thread, "rent" is a clearer term.

I said that it's no reason to attack Valve of Steam...Every company does it.

And I say again there is reason because Steam actually exists. When every company has its own version of Steam or uses Steam, I will attack the others for it too.

And have they enforced it?

Yes. It is in effect enforced every time a customer has been unable to play a Steam game because Steam is unavailable. In that situation the terms of the Steam Subscriber Agreement which state that access to Steam is not guaranteed are enforced.

you are merely basing your argument on something they "may" do.

I am basing my argument on the specified terms of the Steam subscriber agreement AND the technical fact that Steam can enforce those terms and has.

There is no current evidence, and there have been no reports whatsoever that they will be changing the current system at all.

As the Steam Subscriber Agreement states, no advance notice is necessary so the absence of any such reports is a moot point.

Implying that they will do it simply because their EULA states that they can is no different than suggesting every company will do it, because their EULA state they can.

I will state it one more time since you seem to be particularly obtuse on this issue. A EULA by itself is just a bunch of words. Without a practical means to actually implement or enforce those words, it is a hollow threat even if it is upheld by a court to be a valid contract. Valve's EULA's on the other hand are more than just hollow threats because Steam is the means to carry out those threats. That is why I complain about it. If every other company from which I have purchased software claimed to terminate the EULA to that software right now, I would not give a damn because they could not actually stop me from using it. Valve can.

If you don't like the direction I take it, don't read it or don't respond to it.

Don't be stupid. If you're going to disagree with something I say, that's fine - feel free to present a valid reason I'm wrong. But don't give me this "I can take it any direction I want" crap. Saying I'm wrong, and then not even talking about the point under discussion doesn't in any way validate your position, nor does it invalidate mine. So if you are going to argue about something, stick to the argument instead of bringing in a bunch of material that has no relevance.

As I pointed out below, the word renting does apply. It's not the best word to use ("lease" would be better), but it conveys the correct general meaning in the most easily understood way. In addition, through your posts you also made the case why Steam (and all software) is in effect renting, so it certainly does apply.

Then use the word "lease". I'm pretty sure people have actually heard of the word.

But thank you for proving my red herring point. I was never arguing that the word "rent" couldn't be applied to software (although I actually said the word "lease" would be better in another thread before you brought it up). I said that it's no reason to attack Valve of Steam. As you have agreed, since "renting" and/or "leasing" can apply to all software, there is no reason to point fingers at Valve/Steam for "renting"/"leasing" software. Every company does it.

Valve has actually implemented the means to enforce it with Steam.

And have they enforced it? No. So I was correct, you are merely basing your argument on something they "may" do. There is no current evidence, and there have been no reports whatsoever that they will be changing the current system at all. Implying that they will do it simply because their EULA states that they can is no different than suggesting every company will do it, because their EULA state they can.