My friend Frank Costin always said an engineer was someone who could design it, build it and then fly it....maybe he was a bit old fashioned?
A lot of stuff i build designed by graduate engineers possibly takes 30-50% longer to build due to clumsy and unthought out design.(composites)

Throwing some fuel onto the fire here, what would you say to an ex RAF technician with only an NVQ level 3 but 9 years real world experience.
Just because you have done the course and got the paper, doesn't mean you can really do the job

You don't need a degree to be an engineer and that's the end of it. You never have and you never will, in fact the term engineer belongs more to those of the dirty hand than to desk wallers (of which I am one). Tough titty.

Arguably "Engineer" should be a term reserved for those of chartered status.

Funny that you pic the one job where upon reaching such lofty heights within your profession, you drop the designation that is otherwise given to practitioners of medicine and go back to plain old Joe Bloggs

I wonder whether they get in a tizz if someone uses the wrong title?

Oh yes. Mind you the dizzy heights the knife monkeys surgeons have to scale to drop 'Dr' aren't very high, though the recently MRCS +ve SHO who insists on being called 'Mr' generally gets laughed at by everyone else in the hospital.

At the time I became chartered a batchelors degree was the required academic level. The route whereby non graduates (HNC/HND technicians) could become chartered had been closed. That's something I argued against in my professional interview, but that was how it was.

Having not been in the industry for a long time I have no idea what the current academic requirements are.

stu170 - Member
Throwing some fuel onto the fire here, what would you say to an ex RAF technician with only an NVQ level 3 but 9 years real world experience.
Just because you have done the course and got the paper, doesn't mean you can really do the job

All you prissy graduates getting your knickers in a twist about the designation 'engineer' are the reason our economy has lagged Germany's in terms of manufacturing. Also why we have a huge cohort of undervalued non-graduates seen as second class citizens, why we have too many graduates who don't need a degree, and probably why industrial relations have been so shit for the past 50 years.

I hope you're happy.

Fair enough a MechEng degree is a tough one and rightly so, but as a society/economy we have a skills shortage. Whether that needs to be filled by degree qualified engineers is a matter for debate, but we certainly need more of these so called 'technicians'!

All you prissy graduates getting your knickers in a twist about the designation 'engineer' are the reason our economy has lagged Germany's in terms of manufacturing.

Except in Germany, Italy, France etc, "Engineer" is a respected designation, a legally protected title , with remuneration befitting people who actually create wealth. In Britain we value accountants and lawyers more and an engineer is seen as a bloke with a spanner and an oily rag.
I was told many years ago by a German,
"Britain is the only country in the world who values the referees more than the players" .
I wonder if there'sany connection tous not making stuff anymore?

bainbrge, you are absolutely right - partly. Yes we churn out too many graduates these days (though probably not engineers), yes we need more non-graduates in industry. Getting rid of apprenticeships and City and Guilds was a bad move in my book.

But, even after that we won't automatically overhaul Germany as a manufacturing power. That requires ideas and long term investment - not short term returns.

Well if the stuff was the same quality as designed by french and italian "engineers" then frankly we're better off without it.

with remuneration befitting people

We're getting to the nub of it now aren't we? does anyone seriously believe that their salary is held back just because some bloke with grubby hands (as engineers always have had historically) gets to call himself an engineer too?
If those so precious really need a special name, it should be "designer". Leave the term engineer to engineers.

Getting rid of apprenticeships and City and Guilds was a bad move in my book.

That's the real reason we don't make much anymore. We don't have the skill base.

No it isn't. I agree we need that skill base but just because you have lots of skilled makers of things doesn't mean you have the ideas and investment to "actually" make things.

Well considering we have a huge financial sector, funding shouldn't be an issue and I don't for a second think we lack in innovation. Truth is, they make stuff better and cheaper in the Far East now. Those skills we once had we may never get back.

I had a chat with Sir Digby Jones in 2008 and that was exactly what he thought the biggest threat to development the UK was (in comparison to other countries)...that innovation wasn't at the forefront any more.

Truth is, they make stuff better and cheaper in the Far East now. Those skills we once had we may never get back.

I think this is the wrong end of the assumption.
We have the skills and innovation, but it is cheaper to manufacture elsewhere, end of story. Until that worker/resource exploitation stops (or evens out) then our manufacturing will always be slow. Lots of work that used to be done in China and eastern europe is now coming back to the UK.

As a previous automotive engineer, i wasn't overly surprised to see our motor manufacturing sector disappear

British Leyland/Rover is a classic example

In 1959 they produce the Mini - a classic piece of innovation from every angle

In 1981, they launch the Mini-Metro - designed to take on the new Fiesta/Renault 5/fiat 127

In their haste to save money they used the same engine & g/box from the Mini. How on earth did they ever think that this car could be ground breaking??

And the Mini was a loss leader. Everu car was purposefully sold at a loss... Poor management.

My grandfather spent 30 years at Longbridge as a metal worker. He could cut sheet steel, but as a result of rigid job segregation, he wasn't allowed to bend it; that was the job of a steel presser, who as the job suggests, wasn't allowed to cut metal...
Bonkers! a simple job required two men.
It's the combination of the two that killed British Industry.

Still,in those days, every schoolboy knew the Engineer who designed the Mini. These days, I don't think I can name a British "Engineer". They're usually styled as Inventor or Designer. Much more sexy!