The primary goal of this site is to provide mature, meaningful discussion about the Vancouver Canucks. However, we all need a break some time so this forum is basically for anything off-topic, off the wall, or to just get something off your chest! This forum is named after poster Creeper, who passed away in July of 2011 and was a long time member of the Canucks message board community.

UK, I was the one who dealt with Native Bands in a financial sense and believe me many times only one of us had any sense!

Your assertion that PM Harper is obligated to meet with chiefs on a hunger strike is simply ludicrous. By responding to the petulant child's wishes you only encourage bad behaviour. By responding he opens the door to the whim of every individual or group seeking attention.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt "

Listercat wrote:UK, I was the one who dealt with Native Bands in a financial sense and believe me many times only one of us had any sense!

Your assertion that PM Harper is obligated to meet with chiefs on a hunger strike is simply ludicrous. By responding to the petulant child's wishes you only encourage bad behaviour. By responding he opens the door to the whim of every individual or group seeking attention.

sense or cents

I get what you are saying but the world is watching here, we've been accused of our own apartheid and when you look at conditions some people live in, in a first world nation like Canada, well all bets are off. we have always prided ourselves on doing things just a little more humanely and the truth is that the elected chiefs WE installed might not be doing the job we want. Westbank and Osoyoos have been cited as examples of success, but as far as I understand there is only a handful of people making off with a lot of money and its doubtful whether they are actually entitled... words like collusion and nepotism come to mind and it might be that what we have done is saddled these people with a load of tin pot dictators

If this woman was just alone then I could see writing it off as a nutcase, but have you noticed the simultaneous sympathetic support across Canada? its like this woman has touched off a protest not so much against whitey, but against their own leadership?

I know this has always been a problem, who do you negotiate with? so many bands so many issues and no one identifiable group to bargain with?

ukcanuck wrote: 4 hours by rail north west of Ft ST James. The camp being in land claims or at least the cut block was, had natives working as agreed to by canfor and they by and large were useless. Basic concepts like a work day were so foreign it was almost laughable. These people who less than a generation ago were working trap lines for subsistence don't know what factory time is. How can we expect them to think and act like we want them too?

The Tatla, some families are ok to deal with, others, monkeys with razor blades.

A special concern in BC is that treaties were never signed so our land claim issues are wide open. It is a part of the Federal jurisdiction that has been relatively inactive. In the mean time there has been a recent resource development boom stymied Indian negotiations. A lack of leadership on the Federal and Provincial front. A court mandated responsibility to consult with possibly affected Indian bands on what they claim may their territory that has been interpreted by many as veto on development projects.

The only defined guidelines for developers is a responsibility to consult. The defined owner of the resources is still the Crown. The legal framework is still through Provincial and Federal regulatory bodies.

In the absence of a legally defined Indian right on resources, individual companies are left to negotiate agreements with Indian Bands who claim a traditional right on the land of the development whether they indeed have that right or not. It has led to a messy patchwork of agreements in BC with each subsequent agreement being better for the Indian Bands involved. Because there is an escalating benefit in holding out on an agreement, project development is needlessly delayed.

This doesn't even touch on the issue of overlapping land claims where several Bands claim the same piece of land.

And lets not be fooled by the term claim. It is no different than you or I claiming a piece of Crown land because we grew up hunting and fishing in that area.

When it comes down to it, we are dealing with race based discrimination. The Supreme Court has already said sentencing for Indians needs to be lighter than sentencing for all other Canadians. The Supreme Court has also said that DFO is not enforce fisheries regulations against Indians but is to do so against any other Canadian fisherman fishing withe same techniques at the same time. Oh, the Indians are allowed to use the fish for commercial purposes too.

ukcanuck wrote: I suppose the question is fault and responsibility and who owns it.

I like Harper being a westerner and a hockey fan and all, but it is his responsibility when a chief goes on a hunger strike no matter how misguided or ridiculous the claims may be...

The auditors informed the Band and the Government back is September of the irregularities. Yet Spence went on her pantomime protest anyways. No wonder the government and the AFN has shunned her. Her actoins have demonstrated several things about her.

Listercat wrote:UK, I was the one who dealt with Native Bands in a financial sense and believe me many times only one of us had any sense!

Your assertion that PM Harper is obligated to meet with chiefs on a hunger strike is simply ludicrous. By responding to the petulant child's wishes you only encourage bad behaviour. By responding he opens the door to the whim of every individual or group seeking attention.

So you wouldn't meet with a drug addict that asks for help whom you've been supplying crack to

ukcanuck wrote:[I get what you are saying but the world is watching here, we've been accused of our own apartheid and when you look at conditions some people live in, in a first world nation like Canada, well all bets are off.

Listercat wrote:UK, I was the one who dealt with Native Bands in a financial sense and believe me many times only one of us had any sense!

Your assertion that PM Harper is obligated to meet with chiefs on a hunger strike is simply ludicrous. By responding to the petulant child's wishes you only encourage bad behaviour. By responding he opens the door to the whim of every individual or group seeking attention.

So you wouldn't meet with a drug addict that asks for help whom you've been supplying crack to

If you honestly believe that your comment is comparable then you have no rational basis for discussion

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt "

Listercat wrote:UK, I was the one who dealt with Native Bands in a financial sense and believe me many times only one of us had any sense!

Your assertion that PM Harper is obligated to meet with chiefs on a hunger strike is simply ludicrous. By responding to the petulant child's wishes you only encourage bad behaviour. By responding he opens the door to the whim of every individual or group seeking attention.

sense or cents

I get what you are saying but the world is watching here, we've been accused of our own apartheid and when you look at conditions some people live in, in a first world nation like Canada, well all bets are off. we have always prided ourselves on doing things just a little more humanely and the truth is that the elected chiefs WE installed might not be doing the job we want. Westbank and Osoyoos have been cited as examples of success, but as far as I understand there is only a handful of people making off with a lot of money and its doubtful whether they are actually entitled... words like collusion and nepotism come to mind and it might be that what we have done is saddled these people with a load of tin pot dictators

If this woman was just alone then I could see writing it off as a nutcase, but have you noticed the simultaneous sympathetic support across Canada? its like this woman has touched off a protest not so much against whitey, but against their own leadership?

I know this has always been a problem, who do you negotiate with? so many bands so many issues and no one identifiable group to bargain with?

UK if you want to be involved in a discussion at least take the time to educate yourself on the issues. Dragging out the same old dogma is not adding anything intelligible. You can read the Band's Financial statements online. There are other more in depth news reports available. ( Ezra Levant for one) Recently some Chiefs of various Bands( Kamloops Band for one) have come out saying they have no idea what the "Idle no more" group is trying to accomplish.

With regard to Spence and the Attawapiskat Band they apparently have 3 Chiefs and 18 Councillors for a population of about 1600 people. Does the City of Vancouver have that many people on their Council? Something smells and its definitely fishy and its coming from Theresa Spence. Her boyfriend is a "Consultant" for the Band and is paid $800 /day for his "expertise". Between them they took home in excess of $400K last year. Why was it when the news film footage of the housing there was played we never saw any of Spence's home? They $100k for a new Zamboni last year when they already had one. Is this astute management at work? Contrast this philosophy with that of the Chief of Osoyoos who has told Band Members to either work or get out. Who would you rather have discussions with ?

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt "

Listercat wrote:With regard to Spence and the Attawapiskat Band they apparently have 3 Chiefs and 18 Councillors for a population of about 1600 people. Does the City of Vancouver have that many people on their Council? Something smells and its definitely fishy and its coming from Theresa Spence. Her boyfriend is a "Consultant" for the Band and is paid $800 /day for his "expertise". Between them they took home in excess of $400K last year. Why was it when the news film footage of the housing there was played we never saw any of Spence's home? They $100k for a new Zamboni last year when they already had one. Is this astute management at work? Contrast this philosophy with that of the Chief of Osoyoos who has told Band Members to either work or get out. Who would you rather have discussions with ?

Spence's spokesman has been refusing to answer questions about the financial management in Attawapiskat, including one about a Facebook post asking for donations to support Spence's protest.

Macleans.ca reported Dec. 27 that Spence's team was offering bank account information on the official Facebook page of the hunger strike, for those who wanted to make donations. The account was listed as belonging to Kennedy, Spence's live-in partner and the band's co-manager.

When someone commented on the post to say that the tribal council that runs the region around Attawapiskat was also taking donations, the Spence supporter who first posted the account information replied that Spence "does not want anybody but Clay to handle finances."

Listercat wrote:With regard to Spence and the Attawapiskat Band they apparently have 3 Chiefs and 18 Councillors for a population of about 1600 people. Does the City of Vancouver have that many people on their Council? Something smells and its definitely fishy and its coming from Theresa Spence. Her boyfriend is a "Consultant" for the Band and is paid $800 /day for his "expertise". Between them they took home in excess of $400K last year. Why was it when the news film footage of the housing there was played we never saw any of Spence's home? They $100k for a new Zamboni last year when they already had one. Is this astute management at work? Contrast this philosophy with that of the Chief of Osoyoos who has told Band Members to either work or get out. Who would you rather have discussions with ?

Spence's spokesman has been refusing to answer questions about the financial management in Attawapiskat, including one about a Facebook post asking for donations to support Spence's protest.

Macleans.ca reported Dec. 27 that Spence's team was offering bank account information on the official Facebook page of the hunger strike, for those who wanted to make donations. The account was listed as belonging to Kennedy, Spence's live-in partner and the band's co-manager.

When someone commented on the post to say that the tribal council that runs the region around Attawapiskat was also taking donations, the Spence supporter who first posted the account information replied that Spence "does not want anybody but Clay to handle finances."

Soooooo what you're saying is she's an untrustworthy idiot but the Idle No More movement is legit and important for the whiteys to deal with instead of sticking their faggoty heads in the sand and throwing more money at a problem that ain't go'n away until it's dealt with sustainably?

Arachnid wrote:Soooooo what you're saying is she's an untrustworthy idiot but the Idle No More movement is legit

No, I have not said that.

Spence and Idlers some more are both misguided.

The very legislative changes that Idlers Some More are against, are the changes the AFN has been asking for.

EDIT: Best Comment of the Day on Spence's media silence regarding today's audit release.

Theresa Spence isn’t talking. The Attawapiskat First Nation chief is fasting and she can’t talk when she’s fasting, according to her spokesman Danny Metatawabin. Why not, I wondered? It’s not as if her mouth is full.

Listercat wrote:UK, I was the one who dealt with Native Bands in a financial sense and believe me many times only one of us had any sense!

Your assertion that PM Harper is obligated to meet with chiefs on a hunger strike is simply ludicrous. By responding to the petulant child's wishes you only encourage bad behaviour. By responding he opens the door to the whim of every individual or group seeking attention.

sense or cents

I get what you are saying but the world is watching here, we've been accused of our own apartheid and when you look at conditions some people live in, in a first world nation like Canada, well all bets are off. we have always prided ourselves on doing things just a little more humanely and the truth is that the elected chiefs WE installed might not be doing the job we want. Westbank and Osoyoos have been cited as examples of success, but as far as I understand there is only a handful of people making off with a lot of money and its doubtful whether they are actually entitled... words like collusion and nepotism come to mind and it might be that what we have done is saddled these people with a load of tin pot dictators

If this woman was just alone then I could see writing it off as a nutcase, but have you noticed the simultaneous sympathetic support across Canada? its like this woman has touched off a protest not so much against whitey, but against their own leadership?

I know this has always been a problem, who do you negotiate with? so many bands so many issues and no one identifiable group to bargain with?

UK if you want to be involved in a discussion at least take the time to educate yourself on the issues. Dragging out the same old dogma is not adding anything intelligible. You can read the Band's Financial statements online. There are other more in depth news reports available. ( Ezra Levant for one) Recently some Chiefs of various Bands( Kamloops Band for one) have come out saying they have no idea what the "Idle no more" group is trying to accomplish.

With regard to Spence and the Attawapiskat Band they apparently have 3 Chiefs and 18 Councillors for a population of about 1600 people. Does the City of Vancouver have that many people on their Council? Something smells and its definitely fishy and its coming from Theresa Spence. Her boyfriend is a "Consultant" for the Band and is paid $800 /day for his "expertise". Between them they took home in excess of $400K last year. Why was it when the news film footage of the housing there was played we never saw any of Spence's home? They $100k for a new Zamboni last year when they already had one. Is this astute management at work? Contrast this philosophy with that of the Chief of Osoyoos who has told Band Members to either work or get out. Who would you rather have discussions with ?

so what you want is a discussion that ignores the same old tired "dogma" that doesn't add anything and just have a microscopic view of a rather tubby old woman trying to lose weight in a rather eccentric fashion?

I don't see how that is helpful, if we just focus on the pimple on your ass we might get a distorted idea of the rest of you wouldn't we?

I concede the woman totally mismanaged the funds she was supposed to use to compensate for living on the Canadian shield trying to farm rocks. The last time I checked you could still tell an indian reserve by the overturned fords on the front lawn..

but the flash mob protests that have gone on is because people know there is more to the story in other words maybe we need to look past the tired old dogma on both sides?

Nor did I say it. What I said about the Idle no more group was what the Kamloops Band Chief said. Most of the sheep in the herd are just spewing the usual crap that the manipulators have fed them. The fear mongering is typical in that they are afraid they will actually have to assume responsibility for their lives. "From each according to his ability to each according to his need".

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt "

Listercat wrote:Nor did I say it. What I said about the Idle no more group was what the Kamloops Band Chief said. Most of the sheep in the herd are just spewing the usual crap that the manipulators have fed them. The fear mongering is typical in that they are afraid they will actually have to assume responsibility for their lives. "From each according to his ability to each according to his need".

You seem ready to believe the voice that says its their own damn fault. That's a natural reaction I suppose, but I don't see how its helpful. IF Clarence Louie said that "get a job or get out" I am damn sure he knew that half his membership have significant drug and alcohol issues and virtually everyone on that reserve who are a part of the baby boom generation was mind fucked by residential schools. The Oliver Indian band is lucky to have the right circumstances to overcome that to some degree, but there is and will be a lot of human damage to overcome that wont be hidden because the band has a funky resort and winery and a tidy deal with BC corrections.

The fact is that this woman, no matter how misguided dumb or crooked has brought attention to a problem and dismissing her and her supporters is a just another mistake we can throw on the pile

Perhaps the real issue is that we have spent a century trying to assimilate an weaker culture and we now reap what we sew?