Furthur wrote:I doubt any money paid to play on a ball golf course goes to the PGA or the USGA. There's no reason for local dues to a private club to go toward the PDGA unless there's some sort of contract there (for something like design), since money goes toward maintainence, and the PDGA doesn't handle any of that.

Does having a PGA licensed/certified course pro add to a club's prestige? Is there an association that goes with that? Does having a PGA sanctioned event on one's course require an association and fees to be paid, with the understanding that it will increase the club/course's prestige, attract sponsors, increase attendance, make memberships more attractive and/or exclusive?

Wasn't saying that membership dues or greens fees should or do go to the PGA, only that having revenue being generated at all levels moves up, and they get a really well-funded organization out of it that's also partnered with some powerhouse sponsors. One of the things huge head-starts ball golf has on disc golf, besides being 600 years older, is that they generate a hell of a lot of money, even at the public courses.

The other thought I had is that we could start putting giant swinging pencils in front of the baskets, or windmills. Won't do much for national sponsorships, but it seems like people will pay $7 a person per round to hit balls through that stuff.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I'm fine if the PDGA does not get credit for any local work. However, the ongoing diatribe is that the PDGA does nothing locally and yet clubs ARE doing something locally. It's just people (Soylent Green ref) doing the work in most cases. I'm saying you can't have it both ways. Either both get credit because the people doing the work are members of both groups. Or, neither gets credit, just the specific individuals who actually do the work.

Sorry, but no. The local clubs are organizing the people, interacting with the owners of the property the course is on (be it city/county/state parks, private land, etc.), organizing the materials, using their purchasing power to get better deals on materials/baskets, and most importantly - all of the people who find themselves helping to install or maintain a course in an organized manner are doing so because they're members of that club. Nobody's going around saying "Well, the Motor City Chain Gang is installing a new course. I'm a PDGA member, I'd better go help out!" They're saying, "Oh, the Motor City Chain Gang is installing a new course. I'm an MCCG member, I might as well go help them out!"

The PDGA has as much right to tell me not to give credit to the club that's been THE driving force of course installation and improvement in Detroit over the last few decades (decades which the PDGA hasn't done ANYTHING in terms of local activity other than collect membership dues), as I do to tell my sister that she has to give credit to our family for saving someone's life on the ski hill, rather than the Ski Patrol that trained her, organized her efforts, and provided her with the resources to do that job - and my sister has a FAR more meaningful relation to me than the PDGA ever will, no matter how relevant they wish they were.

It's simple. Knock the local club out of existence, and local disc golf progress stops.

Knock the PDGA out of existence, and local disc golf goes on as if nothing had changed. Ok, that's not true. A handful of tournaments are $10 cheaper to play in.

When the PDGA does something to make themselves relevant locally, we can hold this discussion on more even ground. Until then, the PDGA only sounds like they've got an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and self-worth.

And I'm saying in most cases it's simply individual people doing things locally that happen to be members of local clubs and the PDGA. But only the local club gets or takes the credit.

Maybe where YOU'RE from 20 random people will happen upon a park all at once, without any planning and say "Hey, let's put these random baskets and tee pads in!", but in the real world it's all organized and executed by local clubs.

Last edited by SkaBob on Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

There are several prime locations for a course throughout the Metro Detroit area I could show you.

You bring the funds, the baskets, the cement, the tools, the designer, some people, and put a course in.

I'll sing it from the rooftops how great a job the PDGA did putting that course in.

Until you do that, you're really just blowing hot air, and we're all getting pretty bored with it. We're sorry your organization is largely irrelevant in the sport it purports to be the heart and soul of...But WE can accept that... It's time you guys did, too.

I have been involved in over 100 course designs and installations, about half initiated by me and half by others who I helped. While local club members have helped in many cases, they all were mostly PDGA members and no funds or help specifically came from the MFA club. The helpers were acquired thru personal phone calls, meeting at courses or using the Yahoo group since 2000 or so which I coordinate for the MFA (Thank You Yahoo). Some may think the PDGA gets some credit for these efforts because I'm a national volunteer and contractor. No, the PDGA gets credit because I'm a member of the PDGA and also of the MFA who also gets credit whether deserved or not.

You are indirectly representing the orgs you are members of when you join whether you like it or not. If you have a PDGA shirt on and do something negative at a course, the person claiming the problem will cite the PDGA in their claims whatever that may be. Now maybe clubs have some sort of "group think" in other parts of the country. But clubs are simply members who paid their dues just like people pay dues to the PDGA. Mostly you see efforts of people that happen to be club members doing things.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I have been involved in over 100 course designs and installations, about half initiated by me and half by others who I helped. While local club members have helped in many cases, they all were mostly PDGA members and no funds or help specifically came from the MFA club. The helpers were acquired thru personal phone calls, meeting at courses or using the Yahoo group since 2000 or so which I coordinate for the MFA (Thank You Yahoo). Some may think the PDGA gets some credit for these efforts because I'm a national volunteer and contractor. No, the PDGA gets credit because I'm a member of the PDGA and also of the MFA who also gets credit whether deserved or not.

You are indirectly representing the orgs you are members of when you join whether you like it or not. If you have a PDGA shirt on and do something negative at a course, the person claiming the problem will cite the PDGA in their claims whatever that may be. Now maybe clubs have some sort of "group think" in other parts of the country. But clubs are simply members who paid their dues just like people pay dues to the PDGA. Mostly you see efforts of people that happen to be club members doing things.

So you are saying the PDGA should get some credit for the 6 courses I have helped get in the ground recently? I should give the same org that brushes off many players issues as just hogwash credit for courses that I put in with the help of 2 other PDGA members and besides that all local club members?

Wow that is pretty funny considering I and at least one of those other designers are not very happy with the PDGA at this time.

Ok the PDGA can have credit for the courses I helped to get in although they would have gone in without me being a PDGA member? Sure seems like the PDGA likes to take credit, dues, and event fees yet when I come up with some ways to make the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS an event which more people will be happy with I can't even get ONE higher up to give me the time of day.

No wonder so few people decide to renew and many of those that do continue to renew don't do it because they agree with the PDGA but they do it because they love the sport.

I really would not renew if that wouldn't effect my sponsorship but at this time I need to play A-tiers and give the PDGA $150+ per year to keep my sponsor even though all I ever see the ORG do is TAKE money which is spent on things we are lucky to ever see. What I am proposing is that the PDGA organizes a better event for Worlds since the players who attend year after year are among the most loyal members yet every year I hear complaints about where all the money goes and how worlds is just a name at this point without any real benefit to the players.

I made more money at 2/3 of my events than I made at worlds..........................and those were with an entry 1/3 the cost! Yet you continue to try and justify this while many members continue to lose faith in the PDGA's ability to progress our sport.

pDGA is right as pros are only used to promote the ORG to draw new members in while all we get is higher dues and a LAME NT that is all over the map. Yet when local players put in courses you want credit for that?

No wonder there were so many more Pros at 2000 worlds...............................they have all decided the event is not worth it by now. I bet if they payout was doubled (without doubling the entry) the number of players would dramatically increase.

Last edited by scoot_er on Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Best Buy Reward Zone does a lot of work in our area as do the local libraries, the Old Chicago World Beer Tour and the Iowa DMV. It's too bad the Subway Sub Club was disbanded, they did a ton of work as well...

If a group organizes clean up days and work days and organizes course repair and basket replacement they get credit for keeping up courses. The Des Moines Disc Golf club does this. I'd guess that the MFA does the same thing. I have not heard of the PDGA organizing these in either area. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I won't believe that it does without proof.

My guess is that if you see a person fixing up a course and ask them how to help, they'll direct you to the local club, not to the PDGA. That because the local clubs are the ones doing the work. The PDGA isn't doing the work any more than any of the groups I mentioned in the first paragraph are.

Wow... I've read all the posts & stayed w/ the topic this entire time but have refrained from chiming in until now (due to my previous lambasting of asking where the extra $10 went for non-member tournament fees).

Fred the Bear belongs to the Forest Disc Golf Club (FDGC) & wants a new course put in. Fred also belongs to the PDGA & the Cute & Cuddly Little Kittens of America, chapter 200990198. Fred talks with his local club (FDGC) & organizes the work through them & garners all the money, support, materials, & volunteer hours with help from fellow club members (who may or may not belong to the PDGA & chapter 20090198 of the CCLKoA). In the end, a great course is put in and all the little critters of the forest are happy and giving thanks to the FDGC because of THEIR efforts to get the course in. However, because Fred belongs to the PDGA & chapter 20090198 of the CCLKoA we should give thanks to all organizations, even though the PDGA nor the CCLKoA local chapter number 20090198 went out to get help, give money, donate volunteer labor, or do anything in that matter, correct?

Say Fred then hates the course and organizes a team of cheetahs to get it removed, because it's too busy for Fred to enjoy it, while still being a PDGA member. Fred's actions get the course removed, with no help from the PDGA or CCLKoA #20090198 and their is much public outcry. Does the PDGA then get credit for this too? I bet they'd get right on their de-railed public relations train & say they didn't help out with this. Kind of hypocritical, ain't it...

pd

Last edited by pointdisc on Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:You are indirectly representing the orgs you are members of when you join whether you like it or not. If you have a PDGA shirt on and do something negative at a course, the person claiming the problem will cite the PDGA in their claims whatever that may be. Now maybe clubs have some sort of "group think" in other parts of the country. But clubs are simply members who paid their dues just like people pay dues to the PDGA. Mostly you see efforts of people that happen to be club members doing things.

If I wear a PDGA shirt? Really, what if I give my PDGA shirt to Goodwill and someone buys it and then does something illegal while wearing it? No one has a way of associating me with the PDGA on a day to day basis but they can associate me with the local club because I am involved in it and organize events through it. A person represents organizations they associate with and are involved in, not just any group they pay a fee to. I can pay dues to many clubs (cheese of the month club) but no one will say I represent them.

Local clubs are not like the PDGA and just a group of people paying their dues. They are the groups that are getting the courses put in, doing the work days, etc.

I knew this would rile the troops on here but the truth is that people like to credit their local clubs when the club had little to do with a course installation any more than the PDGA. I realize that's the reality and it's too foreign a concept for some to get their brain around.

Let's say the people I have helping install a local course are all PDGA members and local club members. But throughout the project, we just call ourselves the "branch office" of the PDGA because we don't really like the local club. In the future, local players will give credit to the club and the club likely take credit because, after all, their members did the work. But from our installation team's perspective, we were representing the PDGA as outreach volunteers and grudgingly had to join the local club to compete for local tour points.

My point isn't to grab undeserved credit for the PDGA. But poke a hole in the regular argument made that local clubs do everything locally and the PDGA nothing. I'm saying in many cases it's simply people doing the work that happen to pay dues to both orgs. But it's easier for local clubs to grab the credit whether deserved or not.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I knew this would rile the troops on here but the truth is that people like to credit their local clubs when the club had little to do with a course installation any more than the PDGA. I realize that's the reality and it's too foreign a concept for some to get their brain around.

Let's say the people I have helping install a local course are all PDGA members and local club members. But throughout the project, we just call ourselves the "branch office" of the PDGA because we don't really like the local club. In the future, local players will give credit to the club and the club likely take credit because, after all, their members did the work. But from our installation team's perspective, we were representing the PDGA as outreach volunteers and grudgingly had to join the local club to compete for local tour points.

My point isn't to grab undeserved credit for the PDGA. But poke a hole in the regular argument made that local clubs do everything locally and the PDGA nothing. I'm saying in many cases it's simply people doing the work that happen to pay dues to both orgs. But it's easier for local clubs to grab the credit whether deserved or not.

In your example neither the PDGA or the local club should get credit. But again most local clubs get credit because the local clubs organize the work days, talk to the parks and rec guys to get the course installed, run the events to raise cash for tee pads, etc.

It is easier for the local club to grab the credit because they have a more day to day presence but I argue that most of the time it is deserved.