How could you be Zappa fan, and not appreciate Vai? That would be like saying that Zappa picked shitty musicians to be in his band. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you have to like everything Vai has done. I don't. But, I most definitely respect him as a great musician. Not trying to speak for Frank, but I'm sure he did too.

How could you be Zappa fan, and not appreciate Vai? That would be like saying that Zappa picked shitty musicians to be in his band.

Sometimes he did pick a few controversial ones: Allan Zavod, David Logeman anyone? Not "shitty", au contraire, deemed good enough by Zappa to be in his band for a few months. However, both get flack for not living up to the standards set by Duke/Mars or Bozzio/Colaiuta respectively.

_________________Lies are like quicksand, soft and comfortable, but they will swallow us. Truth is like bedrock, hard and uncomfortable, but we can always stand on it

How could you be Zappa fan, and not appreciate Vai? That would be like saying that Zappa picked shitty musicians to be in his band.

Sometimes he did pick a few controversial ones: Allan Zavod, David Logeman anyone? Not "shitty", au contraire, deemed good enough by Zappa to be in his band for a few months. However, both get flack for not living up to the standards set by Duke/Mars or Bozzio/Colaiuta respectively.

I'll agree with you on that. Good point. Lowell George only had a several month tenure too. I'm sure he caught a lot of shit for following the original Mothers. I thought he was a great musician though.

*edit*Plus, I will retract my original statement. You're definitely allowed to be a Zappa fan, and not appreciate Vai. Some people don't like chocolate in their peanut butter. Sorry for my biased comment.

Sometimes he did pick a few controversial ones: Allan Zavod, David Logeman anyone? Not "shitty", au contraire, deemed good enough by Zappa to be in his band for a few months. However, both get flack for not living up to the standards set by Duke/Mars or Bozzio/Colaiuta respectively.

Logeman is not controversial, imo. He wasn't in the band long enough to be compared to Bozzio or Coliauta. I always find it curious that the people who hate Zavod for The Volcano would never knock JLP, who FZ made fun of for wheedley deedley, which is basically the same thing.

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Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To

I'm not too familiar with Zavod as I haven't seen him perform much. All I know is he isn't Tommy Mars and is hairy as fuck.

Logeman I have only heard of today. Even though YAWYI is one of my personal favorite albums I never noticed he played on there. I just assumed it was Wackerman who is a good drummer but I'm not the biggest fan of his. No live presence. He's no Terry.

How could you be Zappa fan, and not appreciate Vai? That would be like saying that Zappa picked shitty musicians to be in his band.

Sometimes he did pick a few controversial ones: Allan Zavod, David Logeman anyone? Not "shitty", au contraire, deemed good enough by Zappa to be in his band for a few months. However, both get flack for not living up to the standards set by Duke/Mars or Bozzio/Colaiuta respectively.

There was a quote from Zappa once about occasionally needing to have people in the band who were only competent, which I think referred to cases like those. Certainly they were not "shitty" though.

I always find it curious that the people who hate Zavod for The Volcano would never knock JLP, who FZ made fun of for wheedley deedley, which is basically the same thing.

There are two differences though:

1) JLP played the electric violin, as opposed to Zavod performing on Yamaha DX7.2) JLP added thickness to the written parts, Zavod was the only one to carry the written lines and consequently he sounded much thinner with the digital synth than the combo of Mars, Vai and Mann from '82 and the combo of Keneally, Mann and the horn section in '88.

_________________Lies are like quicksand, soft and comfortable, but they will swallow us. Truth is like bedrock, hard and uncomfortable, but we can always stand on it

DX7, as thin as it is, can be thicker than a sole violin. I still have my DX7IIFD in the basement, but it needs some work. As for JLP adding thickness... I've always thought the reverse. He was adding a thin-sounding instrument into a thick section, thus thinning it out. So, this reduces down to Zavod being bad because of who he played with? That doesn't seem fair.But, none of that addresses the fact that the volcano is a huge whack-off at the end of a solo to make the crowd cheer, just like wheedley deedley.

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Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To

Maybe it doesn't address, but I figure fans of the Feb-Sep '73 band are more willing to forgive the JLP wheedley if they like (as I do) his contributions to the written parts. What was Zavod good for anyway? Yes, he knew how to play the tunes, but he used a digital synth for replacing Mann's percussion, this plastic sounding fake marimba and that tympani preset. Okay, one saving grace there was: he still continued to use electro-mechanical pianos (Fender Rhodes and the electric grand) where most DX7 users would go with the mentality that one synth is enough and thus use the DX7 Rhodes sound (cue in Chicago's "You're The Inspiration").

_________________Lies are like quicksand, soft and comfortable, but they will swallow us. Truth is like bedrock, hard and uncomfortable, but we can always stand on it

Maybe it doesn't address, but I figure fans of the Feb-Sep '73 band are more willing to forgive the JLP wheedley if they like (as I do) his contributions to the written parts. What was Zavod good for anyway? Yes, he knew how to play the tunes, but he used a digital synth for replacing Mann's percussion, this plastic sounding fake marimba and that tympani preset. Okay, one saving grace there was: he still continued to use electro-mechanical pianos (Fender Rhodes and the electric grand) where most DX7 users would go with the mentality that one synth is enough and thus use the DX7 Rhodes sound (cue in Chicago's "You're The Inspiration").

To what extent was Zavod playing patches that FZ asked for?If Zavod was playing 'thin' patches it's probably because FZ asked him to. With the benefit of hindsight we can say that some of those 80's sound were a bad idea, but at the time they probably seemed like a wonderful way to pay one guy for replacing 3 others...Zavod becomes the scapegoat for FZ's parsimony....

Well, Frank was in charge in terms of keyboard instrumentation wasn't he.

Just read an interview with Tommy Mars. Interestingly enough, when he was about to rejoin the '88 band, he clearly wished to play organ and piano rather than synths. But FZ didn't heed attention to such requests and arranged synthesisers to be in place anyway. Eventually Tommy left because he sensed the kind of dysfunctionality that would eventually pull the '88 band apart. And he was into art/painting more than music at that time.

With respect to Allan Zavod, I'm sure he played the midi keys / synth stuff because Frank told him to. Also, for the '84 band, Tommy Mars wasn't returning and they needed a replacement fast who was decent and available.

With respect to Allan Zavod, I'm sure he played the midi keys / synth stuff because Frank told him to. Also, for the '84 band, Tommy Mars wasn't returning and they needed a replacement fast who was decent and available.

Initially FZ rehearsed with Brad Cole. Scott liked his piano prowess. He's the one that plays piano on "Be In My Video", not the best of FZ' songs, but I kind of like its parodic value. Needless to say, Cole probably got a better gig offer elsewhere (maybe Phil Collins?), so FZ had to get Zavod. Totally understandable. But one thing is certain: Scott Thunes liked Brad Cole. How would've fans liked him? We will never know.

_________________Lies are like quicksand, soft and comfortable, but they will swallow us. Truth is like bedrock, hard and uncomfortable, but we can always stand on it

Definitely an accomplished jazz drummer. So why did he have such a weird drum sound with Zappa that was a total change from the '70s drum sound, last heard with the '80 band with Colaiuta (see "Buffalo" CD)? I reckon it was either because FZ wrote such peculiar drum parts for Chad to play and/or he engineered the drums to sound the way they did.

_________________Lies are like quicksand, soft and comfortable, but they will swallow us. Truth is like bedrock, hard and uncomfortable, but we can always stand on it

Well, Frank was in charge in terms of keyboard instrumentation wasn't he.

Just read an interview with Tommy Mars. Interestingly enough, when he was about to rejoin the '88 band, he clearly wished to play organ and piano rather than synths. But FZ didn't heed attention to such requests and arranged synthesisers to be in place anyway. Eventually Tommy left because he sensed the kind of dysfunctionality that would eventually pull the '88 band apart. And he was into art/painting more than music at that time.

Great interview. I love Tommy and I like how honest he is when it comes to Frank's music, what he likes and dislikes. Would have loved to have seen him with the 88 band. I wonder what he thought of Bobby Martin.

There is another interview where Mars mentioned Martin's audition and that Mars thought Martin would be a good utility keyboard player which is basically what he was.

He sure nails the Whippin' Post vocal! imho He also scores movies and TV series like the one with his ex-wife Cybil Sheppard was in. Not Moonlighting, but the last one she was in. He can play the French horn better than any French horn players I know can.*

why did (Chad W) have such a weird drum sound with Zappa that was a total change from the '70s drum sound, last heard with the '80 band with Colaiuta (see "Buffalo" CD)? I reckon it was either because FZ wrote such peculiar drum parts for Chad to play and/or he engineered the drums to sound the way they did.

I figure it's the technology. The way the instruments were captured at the source changed. And not for the better.

Sometimes he did pick a few controversial ones: Allan Zavod, David Logeman anyone? Not "shitty", au contraire, deemed good enough by Zappa to be in his band for a few months. However, both get flack for not living up to the standards set by Duke/Mars or Bozzio/Colaiuta respectively.

Ed, hold on to your small tiny horsies...

According to United Mutations, Logeman supplied drums for Mingo Lewis' 1976 jazz-fusion LP Flight Never Ending, one of my personal favorite albums of all time and an undeniably accomplished experiment in jazz-based rock music with mid-seventies synthesizers. If FZ ever actually heard the album, I would bet it played a big part in the decision to bring Logeman into the band.

I'm not trying to suggest that you were bashing everything about Logeman by any means, but I wanted to point out something in his work outside of the Zappa universe that still kicks ass

_________________Oh No! I don't believe it...You say that you think you know the meaning of love...

Sometimes he did pick a few controversial ones: Allan Zavod, David Logeman anyone? Not "shitty", au contraire, deemed good enough by Zappa to be in his band for a few months. However, both get flack for not living up to the standards set by Duke/Mars or Bozzio/Colaiuta respectively.

Ed, hold on to your small tiny horsies...

According to United Mutations, Logeman supplied drums for Mingo Lewis' 1976 jazz-fusion LP Flight Never Ending, one of my personal favorite albums of all time and an undeniably accomplished experiment in jazz-based rock music with mid-seventies synthesizers. If FZ ever actually heard the album, I would bet it played a big part in the decision to bring Logeman into the band.

I'm not trying to suggest that you were bashing everything about Logeman by any means, but I wanted to point out something in his work outside of the Zappa universe that still kicks ass

Some can play nicely with others and some can't. It could be as simple as that. I figure if FZ asked you to "audition" for the band, he knew what sound he was looking for and must have had some reference in mind for asking anyone to audition for his bands.All Mothers played good Mothers music for Frank in all of FZ/Mothers bands. They were or are all good Mother musicians, imo.

You have to be at least be a very good musician to be in Zappa's band. Some are just better than others and some are far more diverse. Take Ike, good singer, great stage personality but I don't think his vocal ability comes close to Ray White or Bobby Martin but he was a character and had a humor in his voice Frank liked.

Just gonna throw this out there both SEX and Promiscuous aren't that bad. Promiscuous is throw-away but listenable and SEX has some funny moments (ironing board and those choruses). The worst song on TMFU is Stick Together and even then it isn't bad, just bland. Wayyyy underrated album, I listen to it lots nowadays. Valley girl is by far the worst thing on Ship, but it isn't bad. Maybe my dislike comes from the fact it is a silly little tune that most people know Frank by nowadays and it irritates me.

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