#raspberrypi IRC Log

IRC Log for 2011-08-30

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:00]<Thorn_> only took a few hours[0:02]<ReggieUK> I'd prefer a linux cross compiling environment[0:08]<Thorn_> what tit thought it'd be funny to put python in the buildscripts?[0:09]<Thorn_> *sigh*[0:09]<ReggieUK> ....[0:09]<ReggieUK> which build scripts?[0:10]<Thorn_> qemu's makefile[0:22]<DaQatz> Hmm hadn't eaten since the day before yesterday. So this steak and mashed potatoes tastes mighty good.[0:24]<ShiftPlusOne> I am thinking of a crafting system for the game. Kind of like MC where you don't just select, but put together components. I think there's a way to hide combinational logic design there so that there are multiple ways to do things. Each possible building block has a truth table and each component corresponds to a logic gate.[0:26]<ShiftPlusOne> anyway.... I should probably get a rendered landscape and some basic functionality before thinking about things like that[0:40]<Thorn_> http://thoronir.net/qemu-git.tar.bz2 if the git repo is still going slow...[0:42]<ShiftPlusOne> ah, you legend![0:42]<ShiftPlusOne> thanks[0:43]<ReggieUK> Thorn_ what is that?[0:43]<ReggieUK> just qemu sources?[0:43]<Thorn_> yes[0:43]<ReggieUK> for linux?[0:44]<Thorn_> it's just a clone of their git repo[0:44]<ReggieUK> ahh[0:44]<ReggieUK> I have qemu installed but not sure it's going to have the arm11 support in there or not already[0:44]<ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, should be[0:44]<ReggieUK> tbh I don't know much about the install[0:45]<ShiftPlusOne> you can run "qemu-system-arm -cpu ?" to see the supported cpus[0:46]<ReggieUK> arm1136[0:46]<ReggieUK> arm1136-r2[0:46]<ReggieUK> :)[0:46]<DaQatz> arm1176[0:46]<ReggieUK> I believe those are the necessary cpus aren't they (or one of them is?)[0:46]<ReggieUK> ahh bugger[0:47]<Thorn_> what's the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm ?[0:48]<DaQatz> kvm is for hardware visualization[0:49]<ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, arm1136-r2 is good enough.... it's the same instructions set[0:49]<ShiftPlusOne> maybe a few differences that I am not aware of, but it'll do[0:49]<ukscone> yup i just wanted the 1176 because well i am a fussy git[0:49]<ukscone> grumpy too but fussy as in ocd[0:49]<ShiftPlusOne> *virtualization?[0:50]<Thorn_> erm[0:50]<DaQatz> ReggieUK, which qemu you get?[0:50]<DaQatz> Lol yes ShiftPlusOne[0:50]<Thorn_> so if i install qemu rather than qemu-kvm, why can i emulate an arm?[0:50]<ukscone> iircf kvm gives you hardware virt on x86 architectures rather than just s/w emulation[0:50]<DaQatz> Auto currect sucks[0:50]<Thorn_> oh right, THAT hardware[0:50]<Thorn_> :P[0:50]<DaQatz> Notice the misspelling >.>[0:55]<ReggieUK> 0.14.0 DaQatz[0:55]<DaQatz> Yeah I think you need the git 0.15.50[0:57]<ReggieUK> can I apt get it?[0:58]* diggy (~UNIX@178-52-123.dynamic.cyta.gr) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)[0:58]<DaQatz> I don't think so[0:59]<Thorn_> ridiculous[0:59]<Thorn_> the python scripts in qemu/scripts are a major pita[1:01]<ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, how so?[1:01]<Thorn_> they dont work[1:01]<Thorn_> errors everywhere[1:01]<ShiftPlusOne> when are they used?[1:01]<Thorn_> make[1:01]<ShiftPlusOne> ... works fine here. Are you talking about windows?[1:02]<Thorn_> nope[1:02]<Thorn_> arch[1:02]<ukscone> gftp[1:02]<ukscone> oopsy wrong window[1:02]<Thorn_> http://pastebin.com/HEHELRq7[1:02]<ShiftPlusOne> haven't had any problems. I had to patch signrom.sh (obviously not python), but that was for windows.[1:05]<ukscone> http://russelldavis.org/Stuff/qemu-git-0.15.50.tar.gz if people need the git pull from `10 mins ago[1:09]<Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: python --version ?[1:10]<ShiftPlusOne> 2.7[1:10]<Thorn_> huh[1:10]<Thorn_> yep you're right[1:10]<Thorn_> python2.7 has that module[1:10]<Thorn_> python3.2 (arch 'python' standard) does not[1:11]<Thorn_> and this is why python is a terrible language[1:11]<Thorn_> and anyone who uses it should be shot[1:12]<ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, you take that back! >=/[1:12]<Thorn_> never![1:12]<ShiftPlusOne> Well then... you're going to hell.[1:12]<Thorn_> hell.. nasty place, do they write python there?[1:12]<ukscone> i'm on thorn's side[1:12]<ShiftPlusOne> no, java.[1:13]<ukscone> Thorn_: you hold him down and i'll beat him with a clue by four[1:13]<ShiftPlusOne> Ok, I'll admit that this is not a good use for python, but in general it's a great language.[1:14]<Thorn_> it's good for prototyping[1:14]<Thorn_> but for anything serious.. not really[1:16]<ShiftPlusOne> Ok I tried to find god, big applications written in python and I don't see any[1:17]<ShiftPlusOne> well... there's portage[1:20]<ukscone> well that proves our point :)[1:20]<ShiftPlusOne> ok, what would be your ideal language for something like portage?[1:20]<Thorn_> so i fixed it by forcing python to python2.7[1:20]<Thorn_> well... that fixed a few of the errors anyway[1:21]<Thorn_> but it seems pythons "os" module cannot even create a directory without confusing itself![1:21]<ukscone> well i never liked portage anyway even when i was a gentoo user[1:22]<ukscone> i have a philsophical problem with python[1:22]<ukscone> i'll use it because i am pragmatic but i don't believe it is a good language[1:22]<ukscone> white space as significant is braindead[1:23]<ukscone> almost as bad as make with tabs/spaces causing errors[1:23]<Thorn_> the guy who invented python was probably making use of the whitespace between his ears :)[1:23]<ShiftPlusOne> then you'll love YAML[1:23]<ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, turbopun[1:23]<ukscone> snobol4 ftw :)[1:25]* gomiboy (~frodone@ppp-41-18.21-151.libero.it) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)[1:26]<ShiftPlusOne> Anyway, stop distracting me from Gitwerc >=/[1:26]<Thorn_> gitwerc?[1:26]<ShiftPlusOne> Which is the new name for Dwarfenstein >.>[1:26]<Thorn_> sounds gastronomical[1:27]<Thorn_> :P[1:30]<ukscone> ok dinner time -- steak and homemade macaroni and cheeese and bacon[1:30]<ShiftPlusOne> ...might as well get something to eat as well.[1:30]<ShiftPlusOne> bbl[1:31]<ShiftPlusOne> (no, not meat pies) >=/[1:31]<Thorn_> just finished two plates full of pasta & bolognase :)[1:31]<DaQatz> I had steak and mashed potatoes here.[1:32]<ukscone> home made peach pie for desert[1:34]<Thorn_> qemu-arm vs qemu-system-arm ?[1:36]<ShiftPlusOne> system[1:36]<Thorn_> ty[1:36]<ShiftPlusOne> qemu-arm is for user-mode I believe[1:38]* atts (~adam@146-115-165-244.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com) has joined #raspberrypi[2:23]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) has joined #raspberrypi[2:27]<DaQatz> Sad[2:27]<DaQatz> I can cross compile with less breakage manually then with gentoo's built in.[2:28]<DaQatz> Though them auto building your tools for you really helps[2:29]* atts (~adam@146-115-165-244.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com) has left #raspberrypi[2:42]<Thorn_> qemu-system-arm -M versatilepb -cpu arm1176 -kernel uImage -chroot filesystem did i do something wrong?[2:42]<Thorn_> the aboriginal rootfs is in filesystem/[2:51]* IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi[3:03]* zgedneil (~rus@cpc1-cbly2-0-0-cust455.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)[3:33]* IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Quit: off)[5:08]* yang (yang@freenode/sponsor/cacert.assurer.yang) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[5:08]* yang (yang@boneym.linuxshell.org) has joined #raspberrypi[5:09]* yang is now known as Guest45265[7:59]<ShiftPlusOne> D=[7:59]<ShiftPlusOne> there's -chroot!?!?![9:06]* mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi[9:12]<mdavey> cor, the forum's been busy overnight[9:12]<mdavey> morning all[9:13]<amandarn> 'morning[9:16]<ShiftPlusOne> 'morning[9:33]<ahven> morning[10:00]* mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[11:01]<ShiftPlusOne> Hey, quick question to the programmers out there. I understand the importance of cleaning up no-longer needed objects, but what is the point of cleaning up on exit? Wouldn't the OS automatically reclaim all the memory used by the application?[11:01]<ShiftPlusOne> Or is it just a good practise thing?[11:03]* mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) has joined #raspberrypi[11:12]<Anppa> some tools like valgrind could nag false positives about leaked memory if one doesn't cleanup at exit[11:14]<jzu> ShiftPlusOne: you're right, the system does reclaim all resources owned (exclusively) by the application[11:14]<jzu> so it's mostly good practive[11:14]<ShiftPlusOne> Ok, thank you. I've always wandered about that, since most books and tutorials clean up on exit.[11:15]<ShiftPlusOne> Is valgrind hard to get started with?[11:16]<jzu> hmmm, no[11:16]<jzu> just look at the quickstart guide on their site[11:16]<ShiftPlusOne> ok, it looks handy.[11:18]<jzu> and essential :-)[11:18]<Anppa> in some cases it allows a lot more intact hair on your head :][11:19]<ShiftPlusOne> nice[11:20]<ShiftPlusOne> ok, it just gave a bajillion errors in libasound.so[11:23]<ShiftPlusOne> as for the hair, that's not a real concern, I am going bald anyway =D[11:24]<jzu> you might want to look at lint-type tools as well[11:24]<jzu> splint for instance[11:25]<ShiftPlusOne> is there something like splint for c++?[11:26]<ShiftPlusOne> cpplint I guess[11:26]<jzu> never tried[11:26]<jzu> you don't use much c++[11:26]<jzu> s/you/I/[11:26]<jzu> sorry[11:27]<ShiftPlusOne> true either way, I don't normally code for the PC[12:49]<ReggieUK> g'morning all[12:49]<ReggieUK> looks like they'll be having a go at putting stellarium on the raspi[12:50]<ReggieUK> :)[12:52]<_Lucretia_> ?[12:53]<_Lucretia_> o[12:56]<ReggieUK> stellarium is an open gl based astronomy planetarium application, I asked if someone on the dev team had time if they could put it on the raspi, I wasn't expecting it to happen[12:57]<jzu> does it use a lot of floating-point computation?[12:58]<jzu> FPU-intensive programs suck rocks on the ARM[13:03]<ReggieUK> no idea[13:03]<ReggieUK> but hte raspi does have floating point doesn't it?[13:03]<ReggieUK> unlike this arm9 unit I'm working on[13:03]<_Lucretia_> has a VFP[13:03]<_Lucretia_> not NEON[13:03]<_Lucretia_> if it's using GL, it's using float[13:04]<rm> wheezy (testing) (science): real-time photo-realistic sky generator[13:04]<rm> 0.11.0-1: amd64 armel i386 ia64 kfreebsd-amd64 kfreebsd-i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 sparc[13:04]<rm> > armel[13:04]<rm> what else do you need[13:05]<rm> Debian has, like, ~all of its packages ported to a lot of architectures including ARM[13:09]<ReggieUK> not sure I understand what you mean rm?[13:09]<ReggieUK> 'what else do you need'?[13:10]<ReggieUK> I just wanted an idea of performance on the raspi[13:10]<rm> I see[13:11]<ReggieUK> I'd like to know if it's capable of running stellarium at a sufficient frame rate that is useable[13:11]<rm> I thought you asked someone to port it[13:11]<ReggieUK> nope, not port it :)[13:11]<rm> well, if it runs frigging Quake 3[13:11]<ReggieUK> that's far too much to ask[13:11]<rm> Stellarium will be not a huge task at all[13:12]<ReggieUK> I've seen stellarium bring various PCs to it's knees[13:14]<ReggieUK> not entirely sure what the difference between quake 3 and stellarium might be[13:14]<ReggieUK> in terms of performance[13:14]<ReggieUK> especially with a big database of stars[13:15]<ahven> yep[13:15]<ahven> 600,000 are included by default, but you can even download extra catalogues to see up to 210 million stars.[13:21]<rm> hm[13:22]<rm> I liked Celestia more[13:22]<rm> not just a sky simulator, but allows one to e.g. 'fly' to any star and look back from it[13:25]<ShiftPlusOne> gah... how do you exit stellarium, it doesn't bring up any controls[13:25]<ShiftPlusOne> ctrl-c it is then[13:29]* datagutt (~datagutt@121.80-202-130.nextgentel.com) has joined #raspberrypi[13:29]* datagutt (~datagutt@121.80-202-130.nextgentel.com) Quit (Changing host)[13:29]* datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) has joined #raspberrypi[13:33]* mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[13:34]<jzu> Ctrl-Q[13:35]<ReggieUK> you should mouseover the bottom left corner of your screen, all of the controls should the show up[13:36]<ShiftPlusOne> looks a bit glitchy, the frame where the controls should be shows up, I can click the controls, but there's nothing there (no buttons or icons, just the frame)[13:39]<ReggieUK> that's odd[13:39]<ReggieUK> fyi, it's at the right hand end of the frame that goes along the bottom of the screen[13:39]<ReggieUK> mine are there but look almost see through[13:40]<ReggieUK> and the constellation lines are hard to make out[13:40]<ReggieUK> but getting a nice 60fps (when i'm scrolling around the sky with the arrow keys)[13:41]<ReggieUK> rm, I'm used to using starry night pro on windows, which I would dearly love a linux port for but I know that won't ever happen[13:41]<ReggieUK> + I'd want the ascom platform ported to linux too[13:42]<ReggieUK> If stellarium works and copes with controlling my telescopes as well then I'll be a happy bunny[13:42]<ShiftPlusOne> happy bunnies can be obnoxious =/[13:43]<ReggieUK> mixie bunnies are contagious[13:43]<ShiftPlusOne> mixie bunnies?[13:44]<ReggieUK> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myxomatosis[13:44]<ShiftPlusOne> ew..... =([13:45]* mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) has joined #raspberrypi[13:51]<ShiftPlusOne> ... I still haven't recovered my stomach. Why would you do that!?[14:01]<ReggieUK> sorry :( didn't mean to upset[14:02]<ShiftPlusOne> lol, not upset, but I am sure the images of deformed bunnies will stick in my head for a while.[14:44]* mati75 (mati75@unaffiliated/mati75) has joined #raspberrypi[14:44]<mati75> hi[14:46]<ShiftPlusOne> 'morning[15:00]* atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has joined #raspberrypi[15:27]<ukscone> morning[15:28]<ukscone> i'm all turnd around -- didn't do ny of my monday activities yesterday because the wife being home confused me so now i have to do them today[15:28]<ukscone> and the wife is off work from thursday until next wednesday so i'm really in a state of confuzzledness[15:33]<ShiftPlusOne> 'morning[15:34]<ShiftPlusOne> is that what being old is like? one thing changes are you're all "what? what is this? where am I? what day is it?"[15:39]* fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@vaserv/clients/fuzzyone) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[15:42]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: that's not old age that's just low iq[15:42]<ukscone> and ocd[15:43]<ukscone> i get thrown when things aren't as i expect when i expect them[15:43]<ShiftPlusOne> then never, ever, launch minecraft[15:43]<ukscone> i have no interest in minecraft :) i think it's about the 3rd most hyped POS there is :)[15:44]<Guest45265> do you have any guides for becoming rpi distributors?[15:44]<ShiftPlusOne> that's what everyone thinks[15:44]<ShiftPlusOne> Guest45265, they'll establish distribution after launch[15:44]<Guest45265> i ment if i wanna sign up as distributor[15:45]<ShiftPlusOne> Guest45265, you can send Liz an email with your experience as a distributor. Don't expect it to happen though, they have more than enough people wanting to help.[15:45]<ukscone> Guest45265: well send liz a pm on the forum and see what she says but i don't think they are even thinking about that yet[15:46]<ukscone> they have stuff lined up for the uk and usa pretty much for everywhere else i think they'll cross that bridge when they come to it[15:46]<ShiftPlusOne> Guest45265, 'course nothing is stopping you from buying 1000 of these and distributing them locally. If anything, it's kind of the idea.[15:46]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: how is the windows build of qemu 0.15.50 going?[15:47]<ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, I was meant to do that? I think that was someone else.[15:47]<ShiftPlusOne> should I boot into windows and quickly build it?[15:47]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: well i thought you were ding a windows build of it last night -- see i told you i am mentally deficient :)[15:48]<ukscone> ugh someone is really trying to ruin my day -- there is no sugar in my coffee[15:48]<ShiftPlusOne> Oh dear[15:48]<Guest45265> okay[15:49]<Guest45265> so the prices is about trying to stay as quoted and it wont be like 100 usd at the end?[15:49]<ukscone> Guest45265: nope -- they will get it to be $25 and $35 if it kills them[15:50]<ShiftPlusOne> Guest45265, absolutely! anything higher than the target price would mean they didn't meat an important objective.[15:50]<ukscone> the whole point is to get them to that price[15:50]<ShiftPlusOne> ....'meat'[15:50]<ShiftPlusOne> >_< *meet[15:54]<Guest45265> nice i hope so[15:56]* fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@vaserv/clients/fuzzyone) has joined #raspberrypi[16:03]* fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@vaserv/clients/fuzzyone) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)[16:04]<ShiftPlusOne> damn,,, jamendo.com has come a long way. Some great music on there.[16:10]<ahven> hmm, I haven't browsed to the first pages of the forum but have they posted a list of somekind of software what will be included in the 'base' distribution?[16:10]<ahven> or just mentions here and there[16:10]<ShiftPlusOne> ahven, nope, not yet.[16:11]<ShiftPlusOne> at launch it's targeted at the community developers, not education[16:11]<ShiftPlusOne> so it will just be a basic distro running lxde[16:15]<ShiftPlusOne> so once they iron out the base distro and optimise it for memory, then it will more more apparent what software will run great and what is too bloated. You can expect a few IDEs, Python, some music notation software, a browser, media player and things of that nature.[16:17]<ReggieUK> and quake3[16:17]<ahven> well, I have been hacking myself through linux for some 10+ years and planning to make it my primary desktop for simple stuff: web,ssh,im,maybe some music[16:17]<ahven> that too :)[16:19]<ReggieUK> looks like stellarium runs on the r-pi too but it has some issues (it's apparently not using 3d acceleration atm)[16:22]<ahven> http://www.gizmag.com/jack-pc-plug-sized-thin-client-computing-solution/16799/[16:22]<ahven> hmm, nice idea :)[16:23]<ShiftPlusOne> ahven, very[16:23]<ReggieUK> so I might finally get a cheap decent TV/video player in the bathroom?[16:23]<ukscone> ReggieUK: you mean you don't already have one?[16:23]<ReggieUK> no[16:23]<ukscone> i have a sun ultrasparc5 in mine[16:23]<ReggieUK> its on 'the list'[16:24]<ukscone> you never know when you might want to go on the internet[16:24]<ReggieUK> I've got a dual xeon dell server in the cupboard, doing nothing[16:25]* fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@fluffles.two-pebbles.com) has joined #raspberrypi[16:25]* fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@fluffles.two-pebbles.com) Quit (Changing host)[16:25]* fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@vaserv/clients/fuzzyone) has joined #raspberrypi[16:33]<ukscone> anyone in here in the NYC area?[16:34]* ukscone raises hand :)[16:34]<ahven> 'bit' far for me ;)[16:35]<ShiftPlusOne> bit far for me too[16:35]<ukscone> pity -- digikey is giving away free passes to maker faire on the 17th of sept.[16:36]<ukscone> 16/17 or 17/18 i forget which days are the weekend then[16:38]<ahven> I live pretty much always too far from interesting stuff, have to listen to stories and look at pictures/videos :)[16:38]<ShiftPlusOne> "how do hook up pis together to make a super computer" is probably FAQ-worthy now.[16:39]<ukscone> i have no sympathy :) teach you to live out in the wilds :)[16:39]<ukscone> we have to have some positives for living in the city[16:40]<Thorn_> like polluted air, people that are too busy/in a rush for basic manners, and social oppression?[16:40]<Thorn_> :P[16:41]<ukscone> actually new yorkers are pretty polite -- just don't suffer fools or tourists[16:42]<ukscone> they do need to learn the art of the queue of course but noone can queue like a brit[16:42]<ReggieUK> indeed[16:42]<ahven> ...unless you don't live on an island, where tourists are your biggest income in the summer ;)[16:42]<ukscone> just teell them to leave their money on the dock and sod off[16:43]<ukscone> we do need to mark the sidewalks and designate a tourist lane. always getting in my way[16:43]<ukscone> bloody foreigners[16:43]<ReggieUK> I love queueing, its great when you get that completely underwhelming feeling when you finally get in somewhere....[16:44]<ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, how long have you been there?[16:44]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: 20 years in october[16:44]<ShiftPlusOne> oh, so you're practically a yank then.[16:44]<ukscone> although i was in california for a year before that[16:44]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: wash you mouth out!!!!!!!!!!!![16:44]<ukscone> i am not a yank!!!!!!!!!!!![16:45]<ShiftPlusOne> lol[16:45]<ahven> step 1: denial[16:45]<ahven> :)[16:45]<ukscone> ok i have a east london, leicester, brooklyn accent but i AM NOT A YANK!!!![16:46]<ukscone> i have union jack underwear for a start[16:46]<ukscone> and i am a bit of a monarchist[16:46]<ukscone> the only one i didn't really like was diana and i thought she was one crazy b**** from the start[16:47]<ukscone> i think i need to go lie down after being insulted so[16:47]<ReggieUK> +1 on diana ukscone[16:47]<ukscone> :)[16:47]<Thorn_> what does being a monarchist have to do with being british? the 'royal' family aren't even british themself![16:47]<ShiftPlusOne> sure, God save the Queen...[16:48]<ShiftPlusOne> we mean it man[16:48]<ukscone> ok i'm already lying down as i spend 18 hours out of 24 in bed but that makes no difference[16:48]<ReggieUK> everyone except the queen and philip are british[16:48]<Thorn_> they _all_ have german roots :P[16:48]<ukscone> Thorn_: so[16:49]<ReggieUK> you need to read up on european history a bit, we've got some mental roots knocking around these islands[16:49]<Thorn_> they should be ridded of[16:49]<ukscone> i have welsh, scotish, english and yuk french roots but i'm still english[16:49]<ReggieUK> french, german, danish, italian[16:50]<ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, you're a monarchist as well?[16:50]<Thorn_> ReggieUK: i know that well, but i still hold that the royal family are a bunch of money grabbing imposters who sit on their ass[16:51]<ukscone> Thorn_: you'd get on well with my step-father and late mother and sisters[16:51]<ukscone> my step father says hanging's too goo for 'em[16:52]<ukscone> but then again my step father is a communist scotish nationalist from london :)[16:52]<ReggieUK> yeah, if I have to have a label you could call me a monarchist[16:53]<ukscone> there would be one advantage to getting rid of the monarchy though -- no american tourists would visit and london would be nice again[16:53]<ReggieUK> pffft[16:53]<ReggieUK> take off those rose tinted glasses[16:53]<ukscone> i love/loved london[16:54]<ReggieUK> I used to[16:54]<ukscone> it's my kind of city[16:54]<ukscone> it has been 20 years since i have been there though so boris has probably ruined it[16:54]<Thorn_> it's like any other UK city now[16:54]<ReggieUK> ha, I think london was screwed before boris turned up[16:54]<Thorn_> you can feel the 'blues' feeling hit you as you enter it[16:55]<ReggieUK> ken livingstone was nailing it for years[16:55]<ShiftPlusOne> People who visit London leave with the impression that people there are complete assholes.[16:55]<Thorn_> they are :P[16:55]<ShiftPlusOne> On the other hand people who come back from America are surprised that they are actually nice.[16:55]<Guest45265> dont scare me, i wanna go to london next year[16:56]<ukscone> Guest45265: don't go next summer what ever you do[16:56]<Thorn_> Guest45265: watch out for the dark alleyways[16:56]<ukscone> well avoid july and auguest anyway[16:56]<Guest45265> i am not attending olympicd[16:56]<ukscone> Thorn_: no no no tell him to carry lots of gadgets and to be in a certain dark alley at a certain time[16:57]<ukscone> that way you can mug him at your convienance[16:57]<Guest45265> hehe[16:57]<Thorn_> his gadgets better be worth the petrol to drive down to london...[16:57]<Thorn_> now that it's about 50 quid a litre[16:57]<ukscone> he'll need to bring 30 ipads then[16:57]<ukscone> that shoudl cover 3 gallons[16:58]<ukscone> of course now we know what to send thorn for christms -- a whisky bottle full of petrol[16:58]<ukscone> might even put a rag in it for him too[16:58]<ukscone> and throw it towards him[16:59]<Thorn_> ukscone: filling a whisky bottle ehre with petrol is probably 3x more expensive than filling a whisky bottle with... whisky[16:59]<Thorn_> ??1.44 liter here[16:59]<ukscone> i remember when it was 3 quid a gallon[17:00]<ukscone> actually i remember when it was baout 1.50 a gallon but that was when i was a nipper[17:00]<Guest45265> you dont need cars in london since you got subway[17:01]<Thorn_> there's a subway foodstore joke in there somewhere[17:02]<ReggieUK> subway foodstore is the joke[17:02]<ukscone> also a dirty joke about thew footlong too[17:03]<Thorn_> ReggieUK: yeah, ??3 for a bit of bread and some lettuce is a ripoff[17:03]<ReggieUK> that's london for you though[17:04]<ShiftPlusOne> ...then get something with more than lettuce... they have meat, cheese and all kinds of other thing....[17:04]<ReggieUK> blergh[17:04]<Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: doesn't stop it from being a ripoff[17:04]<Guest45265> i like subway sandwiches[17:04]<ukscone> and all the meat is just reshaped turkey[17:04]<ShiftPlusOne> Sure, but I don't see why you'd say no to everything and just order the lettuce.[17:05]<Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: to present an argument of why it's a ripoff[17:05]<Guest45265> they had one franchise here and they closed it down[17:05]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: Thorn_ is in scotland so if it isn't deep fried he won't eat it :)[17:05]<ReggieUK> ahahaha[17:05]<Thorn_> they have one in the town here... next door to it is a baguette express and everyone just goes there instead[17:05]<ukscone> he even deep fries his coffee[17:06]<ShiftPlusOne> Anyway, most of the time if you want to quickly grab something and you don't want it dripping fat, subway is one of the few options left.[17:06]<ukscone> Thorn_: did you see the kebab shop explosion in leiceester over the weekend?[17:06]<Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: but it's the dripping fat that keeps you healthy :)[17:06]<ukscone> i used to go there quite often in the 80s[17:06]<Thorn_> kebab explosion?[17:06]<Thorn_> haha what[17:07]<ukscone> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6g5yJfRZ8U&feature=youtu.be[17:07]<ukscone> must have put too much hot saucee on a doner[17:07]<Guest45265> any irelanders around[17:08]<ShiftPlusOne> if there are, thanks for making awesome music.[17:08]<Guest45265> lol[17:09]<Guest45265> dubliners coming here for a concert in september after their very last tour in 2009[17:10]<ShiftPlusOne> strange.. I've been listening to the dubliners for a few months, but I thought they were dead by now.[17:10]<Guest45265> they are preety antique[17:10]<ReggieUK> a body was apparently recovered from the rubble in that kebab shop[17:11]<ahven> out of curiosity has someone actually worn out a flash memory?[17:11]<Thorn_> yeah you never can tell what meat they're really serving[17:11]<ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, a bit too soon, I'd say.[17:12]<ReggieUK> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-14713597[17:12]<ukscone> ahven: i kill an sd card a fortnight. not deead dead but from device usable to cellphone fodder[17:13]<ReggieUK> how are you killing them that quick?[17:13]<ukscone> ahven: i make maybe 1000 to 5000 writes to a card a day of between 1 byte and 1024 bytes when i am in dev mode[17:14]* Guest45265 (yang@boneym.linuxshell.org) Quit (Changing host)[17:14]* Guest45265 (yang@freenode/sponsor/cacert.assurer.yang) has joined #raspberrypi[17:14]<ukscone> it slows them down from their class to be bootable to just usable in a cellphone for music storage and pictures[17:15]<ahven> and the age of that card?[17:15]<ukscone> brand new out of the box[17:15]<ukscone> in 2 years i have gone through about 1000 sd cards[17:15]<ahven> ouch[17:15]<ukscone> luckily i didn't pay for most of them[17:16]<ahven> what do you do with them? :)[17:16]<Thorn_> SSD's are bad too, they seem to last about 3 months then keel over, and it seems the faster they are, the faster they die[17:16]<ukscone> sd cards aren't that hard to kill for their desired purpose and people who keep insisting that it's ok to use them for swap drive me nuts[17:17]<ukscone> ahven: use them in cellphones or use them for music storage. they are ok for that but they have slowed too far to be usable for booting embedded devices[17:18]<ahven> I meant what kills them :)[17:19]<ukscone> the fact i am doing between 1000 to 5000 1 to 1024byte writes (on average) writes a day for several weeks[17:19]<ukscone> it all adds up and wear leveling slows down read/writing[17:20]<ukscone> there are some fs that will help but fat and ext2/3 aren't two of them[17:20]<ukscone> ubifs is supposted to help if the device is designed right[17:20]<ahven> sd card testing or developing something?[17:21]<ukscone> developing[17:21]<ukscone> i could use nfs or something but it's a pita on this device so i develop on the device via ssh[17:22]<ShiftPlusOne> I love programming... all I've got is a tiled background and I feel like I've accomplished something. Now then... to code the actual map class.[17:23]<ukscone> hehehehehehhe i think someone needs to send liz some valium or a large bottle of whickey and send her to lie down in a dark corner somewhere i think some of the forum posteers are giving her a headache[17:23]<ahven> she is very active over there[17:23]<ReggieUK> I thought ubi was a nand thing?[17:24]<ReggieUK> what's she said now?[17:24]<traeak> heh, being called a "yank" is really wierd. Considering i'm originally from an area that was considered "south"[17:24]<traeak> "yanks" are them damn north easterners :-p[17:24]<ShiftPlusOne> traeak, we don't make that distinction outside of America. =)[17:25]<ShiftPlusOne> Like not all poms are limeys, but they're still all limeys.[17:25]<traeak> ShiftPlusOne: hehe, and as for "fast food" we eat subway more than anything else :-p[17:25]<traeak> and none of that makes any sense to me[17:26]<ukscone> ReggieUK: yes ubi is a nand thing[17:26]<ShiftPlusOne> traeak, the fat food thing wasn't a snide remark about America or anything, I was talking about all countries there.[17:27]<ukscone> traeak: we are equal oppertunity bigots in here -- we all foreigners :)[17:27]<traeak> ShiftPlusOne: I realize that :-p the bad thing about UK/ireland is you can't tell if what you are eating is food or cardboard[17:27]<ukscone> we all hate foreigners even[17:27]<ShiftPlusOne> besides, Australia is pretty up there when it comes to obesity as well.[17:27]<Thorn_> really?[17:27]<traeak> lots of the bad shit here in the US comes from the UK[17:27]<ukscone> traeak: i have just one response to that -- okra and grits wtf is eating them all about :)[17:28]<Thorn_> i thought all aussies were in great shape and had awesome bodies[17:28]<traeak> ukscone: i have no idea, i never lived in that part of the US :-p[17:28]<traeak> ukscone: even the germans have far superior food to you guys :-p[17:28]<Thorn_> i guess it's just a lie when they film Bondi Beach over there :([17:28]<ShiftPlusOne> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_map_of_Male_Obesity,_2008.svg[17:29]<ukscone> Thorn_: they don't actually send a film crew to australia to film they go to skeggie -- it's pretty much the same really[17:29]<Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: alaskans are fat too according to that map... i call nonsense![17:29]<traeak> in the US here is always first//second onthe least obese list (denver, CO)[17:29]<ukscone> traeak: i have just two words to say -- spotted dick :)[17:29]<ukscone> actually 4 words -- spotted dick and custard[17:30]<traeak> what are those ?[17:30]<ShiftPlusOne> Alaska is a country now?[17:30]<ReggieUK> mmmmmmmn :)[17:30]<traeak> if alaska became it sown country i might move there[17:30]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: yes. you can see russia from there[17:30]<ReggieUK> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotted_dick[17:30]<traeak> i know what custard is, i only eatthat in frozen variety :-p[17:31]<ReggieUK> ewww[17:31]<ReggieUK> its supposed to be hot[17:31]<ReggieUK> unless its on a trifle[17:31]<traeak> the US rules with its sushi variations[17:31]<ukscone> mmmmmmm sherry trifle[17:31]<traeak> sorry i don't eat deep fried stuff...and my wife is chinese even! (she doesn't anymore either)[17:31]<ukscone> if god had meant us to eat raw fish he wouldn't have invented the frying pan and chips[17:32]<ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, words of wisdom[17:32]<ReggieUK> or batter[17:32]<ukscone> ReggieUK: i think i might go and make a jam roly poly later[17:32]<traeak> oh gawd i got sick eating some of that fish and chips crap[17:32]<traeak> :-p[17:32]<Thorn_> WHAT?[17:32]* IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi[17:33]<Thorn_> fish and chips makes the world go round[17:33]<ShiftPlusOne> sudden pause when someone joins?[17:33]<traeak> cardboard d00d[17:33]<traeak> :-p[17:33]<IT_Sean> Did i kill the chat?[17:33]<IT_Sean> Sorry.[17:33]<traeak> cardboard with different textures[17:33]<ShiftPlusOne> IT_Sean, I think they were just making sure you weren't a narc.[17:33]* IT_Sean isn't a narc[17:33]<traeak> if you want "chips" go to belgium, they rule[17:34]<traeak> hugely[17:34]<ReggieUK> chocolate pudding with chocolate custard[17:34]<IT_Sean> aaaaalllright... that's enough of that... 's still ah alf hour to lunch here :/[17:34]<IT_Sean> :p[17:34]<traeak> hehe[17:34]<Thorn_> one last note[17:34]<traeak> i'm way too far from belgium, makes me sad :([17:34]<ReggieUK> banoffee pie[17:34]<Thorn_> is "raspberry pie" an actual dish?[17:35]<ShiftPlusOne> you can pie anything into a dish[17:35]<ReggieUK> if you have raspberries and pastry then yup[17:35]<IT_Sean> well... one could, presumibly, put raspberries inna pie....[17:35]<ReggieUK> unless you leave the top off[17:35]<ReggieUK> then it's a tart[17:35]<Thorn_> i'd prefer tarts keep their tops on, STD rates would drop significantly[17:36]<traeak> heh[17:36]* IT_Sean snerks[17:36]<ukscone> lol[17:36]<ReggieUK> can you get stds from that area?[17:36]<ukscone> ReggieUK: yes if you do it right[17:36]<ShiftPlusOne> if you're creative enough[17:36]<IT_Sean> ... not directly... but, there is a distinct cause & effect scheme going on[17:36]<ukscone> ok guys lets keep this chat pg-13 :)[17:37]<ukscone> there migth be sensitive ears in here[17:37]<ukscone> i know mine are[17:37]<ukscone> :)[17:37]<ukscone> ok that's enough of a disclaimer[17:37]<IT_Sean> what!? We were just talking about pies![17:37]<ukscone> back to the bawdy comments[17:37]<ukscone> IT_Sean: you never watched american pie?[17:37]<ShiftPlusOne> considering all the sheep jokes, I don't see how you can take a moral high ground here[17:38]<IT_Sean> I have.[17:38]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: because i control the banhammer :)[17:38]<ukscone> do as i say not as i do[17:38]<traeak> heh, strange show, i used to watch some of those when i was a kid, barely remember then[17:39]<ShiftPlusOne> makes sense to me[17:39]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: when they send you your r-pi don't forget to ask them in pack a spare pair of wellies and a jar of vaseline in the box[17:39]<IT_Sean> oooh heynow[17:39]<ShiftPlusOne> what the hell are wellies?[17:39]<ukscone> damn why are their no welsh people in here[17:40]<ukscone> when you need them[17:40]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: wellie == wellington boots. you need an extra pare for the sheeps hind legs[17:40]<ukscone> at least that's what the sheep farmers tell me[17:40]<ShiftPlusOne> lol[17:40]* IT_Sean just walks away[17:41]<ShiftPlusOne> I am sure if my parents didn't raise me to respect the elderly, I'd have some clever comeback.[17:41]<ukscone> :)[17:41]<IT_Sean> well played[17:42]<mdavey> Hi, I was looking for the channel for discussion of the Raspberry Pi $25 computer[17:42]<ukscone> the education system these days is terrible. they just don't teach sarcasium and witty comebacks to a high level[17:42]<ukscone> mdavey: then you are in the wrong place then[17:42]<IT_Sean> mdavey: down the hall, 3rd door to your left.[17:42]<ukscone> i'd better ask datagutt to "edit" the logs[17:43]<Thorn_> so many already-in-the-faq topics on the forums[17:43]<mdavey> Okay, thanks. The sign on the door said #raspberrypi but I now realise I'm in the wrong place[17:43]<mdavey> :P[17:43]<Thorn_> the mods should just auto-lock them with a link to the explanation of that subject in the FAQ[17:43]<ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, I disagree[17:43]<Thorn_> and a link to the discussion on that subject[17:43]<Thorn_> rather than 50 disjointed topics[17:43]<ukscone> the forum is getting almost as bad as this irc channel[17:43]<mdavey> BTW, does the landlord allow you to keep animals?[17:45]<Thorn_> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=323[17:45]<Thorn_> so what happens when i do echo -n mem > /sys/power/state on an rpi?[17:46]<ukscone> probably nothing[17:46]<datagutt> ukscone: sshh.. dont tell them about my log editing[17:47]* IT_Sean actually has somework to get done, but will probably return later[17:47]* IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has left #raspberrypi[17:47]<ukscone> sorry didn't mean to blab[17:47]<Thorn_> ~people can't work and irc at the same time now?[17:47]<ShiftPlusOne> probably the best way to keep sane while working[17:51]<Thorn_> ukscone: are there any instructions for getting aboriginal up in qemu?[17:51]<Thorn_> i downloaded the root-filesystem-armv6l and unpacked[17:52]<ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, you can't chroot, you need to create a file, format it as ext2 and use that[17:53]* diggy (~UNIX@178-52-123.dynamic.cyta.gr) has joined #raspberrypi[17:53]<ShiftPlusOne> though there's is an image where you just run the shell script and it launches a qemu dev environment[17:53]<Thorn_> k[17:53]<ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, what are you after exactly?[17:53]<ukscone> Thorn_: easiest way is to use the run-emulator.sh script[17:53]<ukscone> and edit settings in there[17:54]<Thorn_> doh now i see[17:54]<Thorn_> i forgot to download the system-image-arm6l tar[17:54]<ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, is that what you do, or do you create your own rootfs?[17:55]<ukscone> i use the build script and use that script for testing, rolling one in buildroot as we speak[17:56]<ShiftPlusOne> I see[17:56]<ShiftPlusOne> the build script refuses to work for me[17:56]<Thorn_> works, awesome[17:57]<ukscone> once i know all my toolchains and rootfs building things work i'll tidy everything up and redo it on a clean vm[17:57]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: what distro?[17:57]<ShiftPlusOne> host or what?[17:58]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: what distro are you using to build aboriginal in?[17:58]<ukscone> i.e. host[17:58]<ShiftPlusOne> opensuse[17:58]<ShiftPlusOne> 11.4[17:58]<ukscone> what errors you getting? probably squashfs ones for a start[17:59]<ShiftPlusOne> idn, I've deleted everything since then so that I could start from scratch[17:59]<ukscone> k[17:59]<ShiftPlusOne> started again... I'll let you know once it downloads all the packages and does whatever it is that i needs to do[18:00]<ukscone> it works fine in ubuntu 11.4 i did have problems in an earlier version[18:00]<ukscone> also use the stable tarball 1.0.3 not the mercurial repository that was broken a couple of days ago[18:01]<ShiftPlusOne> yup, that's what I've got[18:01]<ShiftPlusOne> ew, it uses uclibc, I forgot[18:03]<ukscone> yep[18:04]<ShiftPlusOne> so everything you do is compiled against uclibc?[18:05]<ukscone> yes and no[18:05]<ShiftPlusOne> yes everything you do is compiled but not against uclibc?[18:06]<ukscone> i use whatever the rootfs i end up using uses but for messing around and checking stuff builds or needs patches i'll use uclibc, glibc, elibc....[18:07]<ukscone> heck i'd use dietlib or newlib if i have to[18:07]<ShiftPlusOne> so then you've got experience all around then. is uclibc really a problem?[18:08]<ukscone> only with older versions well ancient versions and some function names[18:08]<ukscone> in theory it's source compatable with glibc but in practice not quite so much[18:09]<ShiftPlusOne> ok, thanks[18:11]<ukscone> build your stuff static and use the correct abi (strip of course) and if you are doing single progs rather than a rootfs and your binarys shoudl be reasonably portable across several rootfs's[18:11]<ukscone> again in theory but it mostly works[18:12]<ShiftPlusOne> is static a good idea though?[18:13]<ReggieUK> define ancient versions ukscone[18:13]<ReggieUK> plz[18:13]<ShiftPlusOne> Well, aboriginal seems to be doing its' thing properly this time.[18:14]<ShiftPlusOne> and as I said that, it failed[18:14]<ReggieUK> leapfrog use 0.9.29 and 0.9.30[18:15]<ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, http://pastebin.com/BHJvVqnG[18:15]<ukscone> ReggieUK: older than those two[18:15]<ukscone> mompls on the phone[18:17]<ShiftPlusOne> uclibc doesn't have a .config... do I need to do something first?[18:18]<ShiftPlusOne> *uclibc++[18:18]<ShiftPlusOne> wait... it's trying to make a .config file but complains it's a directory... and there is no such directory... this doesn't make sense[18:20]<Thorn_> who thought it would be funny to make vi the only editor?[18:20]<Thorn_> :P[18:21]<ReggieUK> leapfrog?[18:26]<mdavey> Thorn_ vi /is/ the only editor[18:26]<Thorn_> nano 4 life[18:27]<ShiftPlusOne> I am a nano noob as well.[18:27]<mdavey> not zile?[18:27]<Thorn_> whats zile?[18:27]<Thorn_> hmm, emacs clone[18:27]<Thorn_> never used emacs ;p[18:27]<ShiftPlusOne> These guys learned emacs and/or vi back when those were the only sensible editors and are now all snobby about anything that's easy to use.[18:28]<Thorn_> yeah, anything that makes you play twister on the keyboard with your hands just to find the exit combo is silly[18:28]<Thorn_> :P[18:28]<ShiftPlusOne> if it was up to them we'd still be using punched tape >.>[18:32]<Thorn_> hmm[18:32]<Thorn_> so if i want to change stuff, eg a file in /etc, i have to rebuild zImage? (is there erm, documentation somewhere for this stuff?) :p[18:33]<ShiftPlusOne> zImage is the kernel and has nothing to do with /etc[18:33]<Thorn_> see, that's what i originally thought before being confused by this stuff[18:34]<ShiftPlusOne> have you used qemu before?[18:34]<Thorn_> nope[18:34]<ShiftPlusOne> have you read the man page?[18:35]<Thorn_> definitely not, there's never any useful info in them[18:35]<ShiftPlusOne> well then, RTFM[18:35]<Thorn_> k, just skimmed through it, no useful information :P[18:35]<ShiftPlusOne> it's all useful[18:37]<traeak> mdavey: need vim, syntax highlighting is a must :-p[18:37]<traeak> ShiftPlusOne: vim/emacs are hugely more efficient than newer editors. They are designed around optimal efficiency, just a small learning curve[18:38]<atts> emacs is a curse[18:38]<ShiftPlusOne> traeak, they are more efficient if you're using them as development environments.[18:38]<atts> once you get used to the keybindings, you'll be unable to use anything else[18:39]<traeak> atts: used to be emacs wasn't available on many platforms and it was too slow to keep up with my typing...that was a while ago though[18:40]<traeak> atts: i never got into emacs, IMHO it violates the small tool philosophy of unix[18:40]<traeak> ShiftPlusOne: yes vim is hugely efficient as a development environment...not sure what your arguments are ;-p[18:40]<atts> traeak: i agree with that philosophy, but i made an exception for emacs[18:41]<ShiftPlusOne> traeak, if you use a proper desktop IDE, there's no reason to learn all the key bindings to change a few lines in a file.[18:43]<traeak> ShiftPlusOne: but it's very inefficient. One problem we have is that our build environment is very cross platform but it seems the guys who are IDE centric have huge problems because we didn't design our builds around any IDE but around a set of tools[18:43]<atts> depends on what you're working on[18:43]<traeak> IDEs tend to only work well if you work within the paradigm they shove on you...[18:44]<traeak> i think we've only got 4 platforms and 6 compilers supported right now..butonly 2/5 active[18:44]<ShiftPlusOne> traeak, who's "we" and what's "our build environment"?[18:44]<traeak> company i'm in sry[18:44]<traeak> high performance multi core multi threaded engineering type stuff[18:44]<ShiftPlusOne> ah ok[18:45]<ShiftPlusOne> if something is designed around a set of tools, I'm more likely to just use geany and a terminal.[18:45]<Thorn_> geany <3[18:46]<traeak> geany ?[18:47]<traeak> we have guis but they pretty much call out to command line stuff generally[18:47]<ShiftPlusOne> a very minimal ide... more like a text editor.[18:47]<traeak> makes it easy to test...i hate click fests, they are counter productive[18:48]<ShiftPlusOne> traeak, I can agree with that[18:48]<atts> also, it can be automated[18:48]<traeak> yes that is possible[18:49]<DaQatz> I prefer my IDE's to be missing the I.[18:49]<ShiftPlusOne> yup... that's the awesome power of bash and gnu's utils.... you can just chain the commands together to do some amazing things.[18:49]<traeak> haven't gone through the effort of doing pixel by pixel verification on some of the outputs[18:49]<traeak> awk and sed are pretty awesome for mass refactoring[18:49]<DaQatz> If you're careful[18:49]<ShiftPlusOne> throw in Screen and ssh and you've got all you need[18:50]<DaQatz> Seen some people really mess stuff up using them.[18:50]<atts> i use rm -rf for refactoring[18:50]<traeak> i use screen for processing...it's kind of a pita for other stuff[18:50]<DaQatz> lol atts[18:50]<traeak> DaQatz: you learn really quick that you must use source code control and test big refactoring chnages :-p[18:51]<DaQatz> One would hope[18:54]<atts> do you think the r.pi boards will need to have a fan if they are in an enclosed case? they don't draw much power so maybe they won't heat up much[18:55]<traeak> i guess it depends on the thermal transfer characteristics of the case[18:55]<traeak> fun fun, i wonder if i kept my thermodynamics book[18:55]<ShiftPlusOne> maybe not a fan, but some kind of ventilation[18:56]<traeak> you could assume rpi -> air -> plastic case -> ambient[18:56]<atts> the project boxes they sell at radioshack might be a good fit, just drill a few holes in them for ventilation and connectors[19:00]* IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi[19:03]* ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[19:04]* IT_Sean blinks[19:05]* DaQatz doesn't.[19:06]* ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi[19:07]* IT_Sean slaps an "It's dead, Jim" sticker on a cisco switch, and sets it aside ofr disposal[19:15]<ukscone> IT_Sean: which disposal method? 20 pound sledgehammer or dropped from the 30th floor of a tower block?[19:15]<IT_Sean> Dropped from the roof of our building into the big yellow ewaste dumpster out back.[19:15]<IT_Sean> (2 story building)[19:16]<IT_Sean> That work?[19:16]<ukscone> you could stick some firecrackers in it[19:16]<IT_Sean> i could... but the neighbors might complain[19:17]<ukscone> blame ShiftPlusOne[19:17]<ShiftPlusOne> =([19:17]<IT_Sean> The IDJ sticker has my initials on it. so...[19:17]* DaQatz blames everyone! Except himself.[19:19]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne is to blame for everything from 1066 to the black death[19:19]<ukscone> and i suspect he is responsible for poll tax too[19:19]<ukscone> but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one[19:20]<ShiftPlusOne> and who's to blame for this? http://pastebin.com/BHJvVqnG[19:20]<Thorn_> qemu networking, a pita of epic scale[19:20]<ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, yup[19:21]<ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: i'd blame the germans[19:21]<ukscone> ye gods though you seem to be having problems[19:22]<ukscone> can i ask why you are in an openembedded directory though[19:22]<ShiftPlusOne> it's not actually 'THE' openembedded directory[19:22]<ukscone> i didn't think so but wanted to check[19:23]<Thorn_> using attempt #3 of qemu networking (vde tunnel) it seems networking work[19:23]<Thorn_> s[19:23]<Thorn_> ...very poorly[19:23]<ukscone> it looks like upstream uClibc++ is broken though. it worked ok last night[19:24]<ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, I was getting this same error a few days ago[19:24]<ukscone> hmmmmmm no error here but then again i don't remember seeing uClibc++ scrolling passed in the term window either[19:25]<ShiftPlusOne> maybe I did something wrong... I just ran ./build armv6l[19:25]<ukscone> yup[19:26]<ukscone> ./build.sh armv6l[19:26]<ShiftPlusOne> yeah, that[19:26]<ShiftPlusOne> well that doesn't leave much room for error[19:26]<ShiftPlusOne> here's the ltrace[19:26]<ShiftPlusOne> http://pastebin.com/qGyDERPZ[19:29]<ukscone> the only thing i can think of off the top of my head is that opensuse sucks[19:30]<traeak> so uClibc++ still doesn't have a proper map implementation ?[19:33]<ukscone> ok this is gewtting annoying -- used to take 20 seconds to restore a vm now it's taking about 3 minutes and the only thing that has changed is that i reformated the harddisk and copied the vm's from another disk to this one[19:34]<ukscone> after recovering them from the original disk[19:34]<IT_Sean> slower disk?[19:35]<ukscone> same disk as before[19:36]<IT_Sean> odd[19:36]<ukscone> the exact disk -- just had to recover the files reformat the disk and put the file sback[19:36]<ukscone> in the exact same usb slot[19:36]<ukscone> hmmm yes i do have uclibc++ in aboriginal[19:36]<ukscone> and it built ok[19:37]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[19:37]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) has joined #raspberrypi[19:39]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[19:40]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) has joined #raspberrypi[19:42]<ShiftPlusOne> brb[19:42]<IT_Sean> thanks for the warning[19:43]* ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-168-118-249.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)[19:44]* ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-168-118-249.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi[19:44]<ShiftPlusOne> IT_Sean, did you miss me?[19:44]* mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[19:45]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[19:45]<IT_Sean> nope[19:45]<ShiftPlusOne> =([19:46]<ukscone> actually see how much to post case, keyboard and 4 i/f boxes[19:46]<ukscone> oopsy[19:47]<IT_Sean> huh?[19:51]<ukscone> a friend is sending me an empty camputers lynx case and keyboard and 4 i/f boxes to put r-pi's in -- making arrangements and typed int he wrong window[19:51]<ukscone> the i/f boxes will be perfect to put 2 r-pi's in[19:53]<IT_Sean> oh[19:53]<Thorn_> i think i'll begin augmentations and put some raspberry pi controllers in my body...[19:53]<IT_Sean> anyone know when r-pis are going on sale?[19:53]<Thorn_> late november[19:53]* IT_Sean is rather looking forward to getting his hands on a couple[19:54]<IT_Sean> ahh[19:54]<IT_Sean> not too bad then... few months[19:54]* IT_Sean is probably going to snag a couple lust to play with when they come out. Who knows... we may come up with a use for them in the office.[20:00]<IT_Sean> *just[20:06]<ReggieUK> I have uses for them already[20:07]<Thorn_> not too bad? few months?[20:07]<IT_Sean> I have a few ideas...[20:07]<Thorn_> i want them last year already[20:07]<IT_Sean> :p[20:07]<ReggieUK> ha, yeah[20:07]<IT_Sean> So do i, but, i'm willing to wait a couple months at this point[20:08]<IT_Sean> ReggieUK: what do you plan to use them for?[20:09]<ReggieUK> I take it we all think that the raspberry pi will make it to market at the quoted prices?[20:09]<Thorn_> the base unit yep[20:09]<Thorn_> but if you dont have a power supply kicking around for the right voltage... +$10 i guess[20:09]<ReggieUK> 1. telescope control (to run a planetarium of some sort with indi contol)[20:09]<DaQatz> They are trying for the quoted price quiet aggressively.[20:10]<ReggieUK> 2. stepper motor, temperature and humidity sensor, automatic heat controller and guiding unit for telescopes[20:10]* shift_ (~shift@124-170-22-44.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi[20:10]* ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-168-118-249.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[20:11]<ReggieUK> 2. is pretty much a done deal[20:12]* shift_ is now known as ShiftPlusOne[20:12]<ReggieUK> 1. may or may not be possible right now but one of the devs. is looking at things in that area[20:12]<ReggieUK> quietly confident[20:12]<ukscone> well i can cover it ll just need to save up my pennies again as i had to get a new external hd to recover my files from my busted one[20:12]<ukscone> oopsy[20:12]<Thorn_> haha, reality check here, forgot how slow compiling is on a 500mips cpu, ncurses has been compiling in qemu-arm for 15 minutes now ;p[20:13]<ukscone> took a day to reformat the busted drive[20:13]<ukscone> aaarrggghh bloody mouse foxus[20:25]<Thorn_> curses->16seconds to compile on host box[20:25]<Thorn_> 15m, 24seconds to compile in qemu :P[20:30]* mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi[20:32]* ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-170-22-44.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[20:52]* ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-170-21-134.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi[20:54]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) has joined #raspberrypi[20:57]* shift_ (~shift@124-168-94-75.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi[20:58]* ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-170-21-134.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[20:58]* shift_ is now known as ShiftPlusOne[20:59]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[21:14]* IT_Sean looks around[21:21]* datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: kthxbai)[21:42]<ShiftPlusOne> IT_Sean, I am going to go get something to eat now... just so you know.[21:43]<IT_Sean> ... you don't need my permission or approval[21:43]<ShiftPlusOne> oh but I do[21:48]<IT_Sean> in that case, i forbid it.[21:50]<IT_Sean> what now, aye?[21:51]<ShiftPlusOne> well it's a bit too late[21:51]<IT_Sean> Then why even bloody ask!?[21:51]<IT_Sean> HMM!?[21:53]<ShiftPlusOne> Idn, you seem bothered by it more than you should be and that encouraged me. I guess I made a decision and went with it.[21:54]<IT_Sean> air enough[21:54]<IT_Sean> *fair enough[21:54]<IT_Sean> I'd have probably done the same[21:55]<IT_Sean> Let me ask you... does taking a fire axe to a cisco switch constitute murder?[21:56]<IT_Sean> because i am really tempted about npw[21:56]<ReggieUK> only if it's strapped to a human and you go through the human to get to the switch[21:57]<IT_Sean> Ok Good.[21:57]<IT_Sean> It isn't[21:57]<DaQatz> Not even it's engineer?[21:57]<IT_Sean> Um...[21:57]<ReggieUK> politicians and lawyers do not count as human#[21:57]<IT_Sean> DaQatz...[21:57]* IT_Sean is the local BOFH[21:58]<ReggieUK> I wish the bbc would learn how to make a headline, punctuation might give reasonable context[21:58]<ReggieUK> 'food airlifted to irene stranded'[21:58]<ReggieUK> is the food stranded?[21:59]<ReggieUK> is irene stranded[21:59]<IT_Sean> It could be either, with the state of the roads here[21:59]<ReggieUK> was irene grateful?[21:59]<IT_Sean> irene was a spiteful *****[22:00]<ShiftPlusOne> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=326.0[22:00]* ShiftPlusOne facepalms[22:01]* DaQatz shakes head.[22:02]<IT_Sean> what a dillbag[22:05]<ShiftPlusOne> did that get deleted... almost as soon as it went up?[22:06]<ReggieUK> care to give us a hint as to what the post was about?[22:06]<ShiftPlusOne> "If this had better spec and was slightly bigger and under 200 pounds, I would've bought it" or something like that.[22:07]<DaQatz> "Is it possible for you to make a little bigger, but better for under 200 $?[22:07]<DaQatz> If you could, i would have bought it! :D"[22:07]<DaQatz> Was his quote[22:07]<ShiftPlusOne> close enough[22:09]<ReggieUK> that's like saying if my ex girlfriend wasn't such a bitc#, I'd have married her[22:09]* mdavey doesn't even dare read the comments on the home page[22:11]<mdavey> blimey - 990 forum members thou![22:19]<mdavey> ??? 990 forum members on the wall, 990 forum members. And if one more person should join, there would be 991 forum members on the wall![22:19]<mdavey> ??? 991 forum members on the wall, 991 forum members[22:20]<DaQatz> They will never find your body...[22:20]<ReggieUK> that should be 970 forum members driving liz up the wall, .....[22:20]<IT_Sean> Knock one down, kick his face in... back down to 990 forum memebers now![22:23]<IT_Sean> 970 newbs driving liz mad... 970 newbs...[22:23]<IT_Sean> reroute one to /dev/null... 978 newbs driving liz mad![22:23]<IT_Sean> *969 (dammit)[22:24]<DaQatz> Oddly the typo is probably more accurate.[22:24]<DaQatz> Gain vs loss rate[22:24]<mdavey> hah, yea[22:24]<IT_Sean> good point[22:35]<ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, yup, ubuntu builds aboriginal just fine.[22:41]* IT_Sean gets ready to head home[22:41]* IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Quit: off)[22:46]<Thorn_> brilliant[22:47]<Thorn_> setup a more usable rootfs, installed a fair few packages[22:47]<Thorn_> and deleted all the backups of the squashfs with... rm hda*[22:47]<Thorn_> ofcourse... that deleted all the backups... aswell as the latest working one.[22:48]<ShiftPlusOne> nice... what did you use for the packages?[22:48]<Thorn_> was building from source[22:49]<ShiftPlusOne> ah ok, that's cheating[22:49]<Thorn_> nah[22:49]<Thorn_> the manly way :P[22:50]<mdavey> ??? 992 forum members on the wall, 992 forum members[22:51]<mdavey> at this rate, we could hit 1000 before midnight WEST.[22:53]<mdavey> Liz: Both models will have 2 host ports. You won't be able to power either via USB.[22:54]<Thorn_> the model a will have two ports now?[22:55]<ahven> cheaper to buy lot of stacked versions?[22:55]<mdavey> I dunno. I know Liz is currently working stupid hours, so could just be a typo.[22:57]<traeak> seems model a and b differences are changing some[23:00]<mdavey> I've just PM'd her in case its a mistake.[23:00]<Thorn_> i already posted asking ;p[23:00]<Thorn_> "It always did - you'll need to be able to plug a mouse and a keyboard into it!"[23:01]<traeak> huh??? if its always had 2 usb ports why should i care about the 'b' model other than the extra ram ?[23:01]<Thorn_> ethernet[23:01]<ahven> traeak: no ethernet afaik[23:01]<ahven> on model a[23:02]<traeak> perhaps...wireless dongle may be more practical for many uses[23:03]<Thorn_> I was always under the assumption that the BCM chip only provided one usb therefore they used the lan9512 to allow two USB's on the B ?[23:03]<mdavey> yea me too[23:04]<traeak> http://www.amazon.com/USB-Highspeed-Port-Adapter-Silver/dp/B002FFZGCU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1314738278&sr=8-2[23:04]<traeak> might be worth getting one of these for the rpi[23:06]<ahven> 7? pretty nice, I have a 4 port extender on my table atm[23:06]<mdavey> Also LAN9512 provides 2xUSB and 1xEthernet from 1xUSB. So presumably in theory the model B could have 3xUSB available[23:06]<Thorn_> A bit confused, does this mean there's a LAN9512 on the Model A (which seems a bit of a waste?) or are they pulling two usb's from the BCM ?[23:06]<mdavey> I think the BCM must provide 2xUSB.[23:07]<Thorn_> Then on that note[23:07]<Thorn_> What's stopping the model B from having 4 usbs? :P[23:07]<ShiftPlusOne> ok so model A is pretty much useless for me then =/[23:07]<ShiftPlusOne> I thought it had ethernet, but only 1 usb port. if it doesn't have ethernet then it's pretty limited[23:11]* atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has left #raspberrypi[23:12]<traeak> model 'a' having 2 usb ports is interesting...[23:13]<ShiftPlusOne> I am going to bet half a million Vietnamese dong that she's wrong somehow.[23:14]<ShiftPlusOne> (which happens to be the price of a raspberry pi)[23:14]<Thorn_> dong is a commodity?[23:14]<Thorn_> erm[23:14]<Thorn_> currency[23:14]<Thorn_> *[23:14]<traeak> heh[23:14]<traeak> where do they find all the dongs?[23:15]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) has joined #raspberrypi[23:15]<ShiftPlusOne> yes, dong is a legit currency.[23:15]<ShiftPlusOne> I've got a 5000 dong coin =)[23:16]<Thorn_> oh right, i was confusing it with dung, which is why i considered it so odd[23:16]<ShiftPlusOne> well scratchbox is a pain to set up =/[23:18]<mdavey> ShiftPlusOne: Model A definately doesn't have Ethernet. Well, as definates as anything can be with R.Pi.[23:18]<ShiftPlusOne> ah, that's a shame[23:19]<Thorn_> but would you bet his vietnamese dung on it?[23:19]<mdavey> 993 members.[23:21]* ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[23:21]<traeak> means model a could have wireless dongle + game controller and be just peachy[23:21]<ahven> Liz isn't sure either - "I was positive there were 2"[23:22]<traeak> or wireless dongle + bt dongle[23:23]<ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, no, never.[23:23]<ukscone> rehoi all -- hide your women and tandy model 3's i'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaacckkkk[23:24]* mdavey can't find Liz's "500 members!" thread.[23:27]<Thorn_> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=187[23:29]<ReggieUK> can't you just plug in a hub and give yourself X usb ports?[23:29]<Thorn_> One USB 2.0 port provided by the BCM2835[23:29]<Thorn_> from: http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard[23:29]<ShiftPlusOne> does const int something=somethingelse/somethingelse2; make sense or is that an error?[23:30]<ReggieUK> sounds ok[23:30]<Thorn_> its fine[23:30]<ShiftPlusOne> ok thanks[23:31]<ReggieUK> http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial/const_correctness.html[23:31]<traeak> roku only has 1 usb port[23:31]<ShiftPlusOne> thanks[23:32]<mdavey> Thorn_ Thanks[23:33]<mdavey> traeak: Is that Roku2? Which model?[23:33]<mdavey> Thorn_: Yea, but that page was written mainly by me - and I thought there was only one on the Model A![23:34]<ReggieUK> I believe it's only a single port on the model A too[23:35]<traeak> roku2 yeah[23:35]<ukscone> i thought that was what was said originally too[23:36]<Thorn_> we've all been misled![23:36]<Thorn_> <american> who do i sue?? </american>[23:36]<ukscone> i say law suit. sue them for lieing[23:36]<Thorn_> here[23:36]<Thorn_> From Eben[23:36]<Thorn_> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?p=28#comments[23:36]<Thorn_> The USB hub and Ethernet functions are provided by the same chip. The cheaper board has one USB host port, while the more expensive one has two USB host ports and Ethernet.[23:37]<ReggieUK> that's a bugger, only usb host, no client :([23:37]<traeak> yeah, i'm not inclined to believe her :-p[23:39]<mdavey> traeak: But the Roku2 features the LAN9512 so that makes just as much sense ;)[23:39]<traeak> so then model 'b' is much cooler :-p[23:39]<traeak> mdavey: lovely, so i guess they must be using the extra USB for the wireless maybe ??[23:40]<mdavey> Actually, it kinda looked like they had plugged the IR sensor into a USB socket. Which also makes bugger all sense.[23:40]<traeak> heh[23:40]<traeak> oh well[23:40]<traeak> what eben said makes the most sense[23:41]<traeak> porobably also means the model 'a' has a lower profile[23:41]<Thorn_> that would be quite nice[23:42]<ReggieUK> yeah, model A will be the australian cheap ass shipping option, so I heard....[23:42]<traeak> hmm? is that related to profile?[23:42]<ReggieUK> yes[23:42]<ReggieUK> UK letter specifies 25mm thick[23:43]<Thorn_> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=113[23:43]<Thorn_> <3[23:43]<ReggieUK> I was hoping ShiftPlusOne would bite[23:43]<Thorn_> "have you got a link to those solar panels - ..." from jamesh[23:43]<Thorn_> response[23:43]<Thorn_> "Sure! (no)" (in less words)[23:44]<ukscone> Thorn_: did you watch the stephen fry 100 greatest gadgets thing yesterday? worth watching?[23:44]<Thorn_> nope[23:44]<Thorn_> i tend to avoid tv ;p[23:44]<Thorn_> i didn't even know stephen fry was still kicking![23:44]<ukscone> then how are you going to use an r-pi then?[23:45]<Thorn_> ?[23:45]* atts (~adam@146-115-165-244.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com) has joined #raspberrypi[23:45]<mdavey> Mmm. But if the BCM2835 is capable of directly driving two USB, it is possible that the hardware team changed their mind recently and decided to add two USB even on the model A. Recently on the forum Gert mentioned that he was finding it difficult to find a single USB and double USB connector that shared the same pads for one of the sockets.[23:45]<mdavey> I guess it'll all come out in the wash :D[23:45]<traeak> oh interesting[23:46]<traeak> these developers need their own blogs[23:46]<traeak> i mean the rpi staff does[23:46]<mdavey> ...*if* it is capable...[23:46]<ReggieUK> ukscone, I wouldn't bother unless you're really hankering after some old tech[23:46]<traeak> big *if* there yes[23:46]<ReggieUK> on the 100 greatest gadgets thing[23:47]<Thorn_> all this discussion, still 3 months to launch :\[23:47]<traeak> yuk, you are right[23:48]<ukscone> ReggieUK: old tech is the best tech[23:49]<ReggieUK> it is but come on, 2 hours of random crap and z listers saying how great they are....[23:58]<ukscone> and apple apple rubbish i expect[23:58]<ukscone> and all apple even