Couldnt be more wrong...the real big money is in fitness, and a reasonably attainable physique...not in hardcore BB....

M&F outsells Flex by a huge margin....Mens Fitness outsells M&F by a landslide...The overwhelming majority of consumers of suplements are NON competing guys who have no aspirations of being a Pro BB, or even looking like one for that matter

That is so true. Im the only body builder amongst my friend group. I have yet to meet an average person who thinks Ronny Coleman looks good, and thats what they aspire to look like. You never ever ever see a top tier body builder in a main stream commercial on TV, or asked to do a show say like American Gladiators. Theres a reason for that, hardcore bb is a circus act like I said, its a cult like following, and its not mainstream. It never will be. It would be a bigger sport without the drugs guaranteed. It might even then be classified as a "sport" by mainstream public if you could wipe the drugs out. Hell TSN might even cover it.

So you believe that the average gym rat could rival the likes of Coleman and Yates in their primes, training hard, but not using drugs?

Those guys would still be better than the average gym rat but they wouldn't turn heads at any gym, since the difference would be so small. Like gh15 has explained so many times, there's an approximate body-weight range a natural athlete can reach. Even if you don't agree with his quoted ranges it's still there. "So the Mr O has a bicep that is 1-2 cm bigger than the biggest guy at our gym, big deal!"

Those guys would still be better than the average gym rat but they wouldn't turn heads at any gym, since the difference would be so small. Like gh15 has explained so many times, there's an approximate body-weight range a natural athlete can reach. Even if you don't agree with his quoted ranges it's still there. "So the Mr O has a bicep that is 1-2 cm bigger than the biggest guy at our gym, big deal!"

There would be an adjustment period, as I mentioned. In the late 60's and early 70's, the peak muscle car years, you had an assortment of high powered engine choices. By the late 70's things started powering down, and in the 80's, people drove anemic V8's. People adjusted, and by the late 80's, if you had 200 horsepower, that was something. Perhaps if a guy is 200 pounds ripped, that would inevitably be considered something again too. Fans would adjust and the best physiques would still be the best, simple as that.

There would be an adjustment period, as I mentioned. In the late 60's and early 70's, the peak muscle car years, you had an assortment of high powered engine choices. By the late 70's things started powering down, and in the 80's, people drove anemic V8's. People adjusted, and by the late 80's, if you had 200 horsepower, that was something. Perhaps if a guy is 200 pounds ripped, that would inevitably be considered something again too. Fans would adjust and the best physiques would still be the best, simple as that.

You can never turn back the clock. We would still have the memory of what once was. It's been debated so much on this board but people still forget how desensitized we've become due to the physique altering drugs in all off society. Drugs have infiltrated even mainstream modeling where the models look like twigs. People do not know what a true elite natural body looks like anymore! Even if it's there right in front of them they do not see it, it's nothing anyone looks twice at. We're desensitized!

Like the Jessie dude from Big Brother, he has the drug look, despite not being very big at all. That look is not natural. If we could clean up competitive bb somehow we would have to eradicate them from all of the rest of society too... then perhaps the memory would fade over many decades. Not going to happen of course.

Think about this: if we fans really wanted the IFBB to be even semi-clean it could be done! It would be very hard to use steroids if there was out of competition testing. A WADA-like testing protocol and steroid use would drop dramatically. But it isn't done. Why? Someone wants the drugs to be used in unrestricted fashion. And if it was done 99% of the athletes competing today would flunk anyway, they would give a shit. Competing without drugs is simply unthinkable for most. They can't even pass in-competition testing - see the IFBB World Champs. Think about it, they can't abstain from drugs even for a few weeks!

I can't think of another sport where there's as many failures when strict testing is instituted.

Don't you remember what happened to the WBF? Don't you remember the 1990 Olympia? If fans don't care why isn't there drug testing?

I simply do not agree that most other sports are as dependent on drugs to keep the fans' interest.

If you really thought competition was what was important wouldn't you have been competing in natural shows instead yourself? Why go the drug route?

Look at this pic and tell me fans don't care.

i remember being at the olympia, when he came out like that.....i was like "what the fuck".

people have to understand that bodybuilding is unique in that the sport is part of a wider bodybuilding culture..............for example, there is no "wider professional football" culture...........dudes watch it on sunday, and go to games, but they do not live their life by it. this bodybuilding culture, is heavily reliant on steroids..........so if tomorrow, professioanl bodybuilding disappeared, no more contests............the culture would still exist.............conversly, this culture does not want to see natural competitions, because PEDs are part of what they define themselves by..... so if you made professional bodybuilding natural bodybuilding, the fans would desert the sport............. they might be replaced by a fractional group of natural bodybuilding enthusiasts, but that group is very small..........and even the natural bodybuilders i know.............when they talk about bodybuilding, they do not talk about other natural pros, they talk about the freaks..........because that is whats exciting...............

face it, no one cares about natural bodybuilding...........i went to the university of maryland, today i went to their campus rec center.........which happens to also house the pool, that the swim team competes in...........there was some kind of national competition going on there, the most elite college swimmers from all over the country...........and i had to laugh when i lookes down at all of them, because they looked almost exactly like most natural bodybuilders. which is not really an insult, cause they were pretty shreaded, but no real mass to speak of

Think about this: if we fans really wanted the IFBB to be even semi-clean it could be done! It would be very hard to use steroids if there was out of competition testing. A WADA-like testing protocol and steroid use would drop dramatically. But it isn't done. Why? Someone wants the drugs to be used in unrestricted fashion. And if it was done 99% of the athletes competing today would flunk anyway, they would give a shit. Competing without drugs is simply unthinkable for most. They can't even pass in-competition testing - see the IFBB World Champs. Think about it, they can't abstain from drugs even for a few weeks!

I can't think of another sport where there's as many failures when strict testing is instituted.

NOBODY CARES

BB isn't high enough on the radar to be a concern...baseball is, football is, track is....

As for your misinformation on not being able to stay away from drugs for a few weeks... certain drugs stay in the sstem for a looong time

Yeah...the WBF tanked because of poor management, stupid costumes, and not having the luxury of the best BBers in the world competing.

1990 Olympia...well attended, and a perfect example of what I stated from post 1....guys werent as good as the year before, but still impressive and still the best in the world competing.

The WBF tanked because of the drug issue period. At least that's what Tom Platz says. McMahon was under political pressure at the time. If he wanted to he could have continued with the drug testing and having shows. But even a few months off drugs the guys looked like shit. Truly drug free bodybuilding was obviously not a viable option.

The 1990 Olympia guys looked ok only because they just had to pass the test on the day of the show. Imagine if they had to be clean for a whole year for example? They would've looked like absolute dogshit.

As for your misinformation on not being able to stay away from drugs for a few weeks... certain drugs stay in the sstem for a looong time

Come on now, I know that perfectly well. But, bodybuilding is so drug dependent that they use the drugs to the very last possible hour while still hoping to pass. They won't get off well in advance to be sure to pass - instead they push the envelope as close as possible. Because even one extra day off drugs makes a difference. A guy hears tren acetate via oral is detectable for 5 days. Does he get off a month out to be sure? No, he takes his last dose 5 days and 1 hour out. That's how big a difference the drugs make.

It has been reported in today's New York Daily News that Craig Titus supplied HGH, Deca-Durabolin and Winstrol to a person named Kelly Blair, a Gym owner and a person who Craig Titus worked out with....

Apparently Craig was the source for these drugs which were then sold by Mr. Blair to Major League Baseball players Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens of the New York Yankees and to Jeff Bagwell of the Houston Astros...

Blair has already admitted brokering illegal transfers of steroids and HGH to major league players and has implicated Titus as his supplier....he will testify in front of congress on Aug 4th...

you don't feel that it's amazing that a guy who was a professional bodybuilder, and was convicted of murder was also found to be a middle man in the distribution of steroids to some of baseball's biggest stars?..good story if you ask me

It has been reported in today's New York Daily News that Craig Titus supplied HGH, Deca-Durabolin and Winstrol to a person named Kelly Blair, a Gym owner and a person who Craig Titus worked out with....

Apparently Craig was the source for these drugs which were then sold by Mr. Blair to Major League Baseball players Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens of the New York Yankees and to Jeff Bagwell of the Houston Astros...

Blair has already admitted brokering illegal transfers of steroids and HGH to major league players and has implicated Titus as his supplier....he will testify in front of congress on Aug 4th...

Come on now, I know that perfectly well. But, bodybuilding is so drug dependent that they use the drugs to the very last possible hour while still hoping to pass. They won't get off well in advance to be sure to pass - instead they push the envelope as close as possible. Because even one extra day off drugs makes a difference. A guy hears tren acetate via oral is detectable for 5 days. Does he get off a month out to be sure? No, he takes his last dose 5 days and 1 hour out. That's how big a difference the drugs make.