It's all a load of Cannonballs in here! This is the virtual Arsenal pub where you can chat about anything except football. Be warned though, like any pub, the content may not always be suitable for everyone.

A con ? Nnot really
The whole purpose was to read not only the financial aspect which has completely clouded the issue but the eventual aims of the European Commission.
The question should have been do you want to follow the lines of a fully integrated Europe handing over to Brussels all of your independence in finance , trade , social rights , tax , fishing and agriculture and be swallowed into a federal state or have the ability to work for ourselves.

Had people read up on the intentions of people such as Juncker , Verhofstadt , Schultz , Tusk , Merkel and Macron and read the previous speeches of Van Rompuy they may have seen the situation that we were sleep walking into.
As the European dream enlarges , countries such as ours would be in effect be one the bankers and payrollers ,whilst under the guise of a common policy many others would be recipients of our largesse .

The question never was about a trade deal it was about who you wanted to run the country . Ourselves or somebody else . At least when it's us we can make our own mistakes and hopefully rectify them . Under May's deal we can only leave as and when it's convenient for them to let us and as the two years tick away the compromises they will demand will undermine us even further.

A con ? Nnot really
The whole purpose was to read not only the financial aspect which has completely clouded the issue but the eventual aims of the European Commission.
The question should have been do you want to follow the lines of a fully integrated Europe handing over to Brussels all of your independence in finance , trade , social rights , tax , fishing and agriculture and be swallowed into a federal state or have the ability to work for ourselves.

Had people read up on the intentions of people such as Juncker , Verhofstadt , Schultz , Tusk , Merkel and Macron and read the previous speeches of Van Rompuy they may have seen the situation that we were sleep walking into.
As the European dream enlarges , countries such as ours would be in effect be one the bankers and payrollers ,whilst under the guise of a common policy many others would be recipients of our largesse .

The question never was about a trade deal it was about who you wanted to run the country . Ourselves or somebody else . At least when it's us we can make our own mistakes and hopefully rectify them . Under May's deal we can only leave as and when it's convenient for them to let us and as the two years tick away the compromises they will demand will undermine us even further.

We are better off with a clean break and do a deal with them after.

The EU is not fully integrated though is it ?
We don't even use the Euro. You talk of an EU which in reality doesn't exist.

We are major players in Europe as one of the biggest countries. We help to shape EU laws.

BUT once outside then we will have to bow down to their every demand because suddenly that gang of 27 countries will make us look very small. Surely by now you can see that we need the EU far more than they need us ? In 2016 they were supposed to just roll over and give us everything we asked. Hasnt happened has it ?

After 2020, all EU members will have to adopt the euro Daily Telegraph 11th January 2019.

Coincidently that's about the time that we will enter the famous backstop .

You would hear swirling around in Brussels - particularly the people around Selmayr, Martin Selmayr in the Commission, and some others - that losing Northern Ireland was the price the UK would pay for Brexit, Belfast telegraph.

I think you need to get out more and see what the aims of your union are.
If you want them , that's your decision but I do think that in the long run you will live to regret it.

After 2020, all EU members will have to adopt the euro Daily Telegraph 11th January 2019.

Coincidently that's about the time that we will enter the famous backstop .

You would hear swirling around in Brussels - particularly the people around Selmayr, Martin Selmayr in the Commission, and some others - that losing Northern Ireland was the price the UK would pay for Brexit, Belfast telegraph.

I think you need to get out more and see what the aims of your union are.
If you want them , that's your decision but I do think that in the long run you will live to regret it.

Project Fear!

you are too obsessed with looking at the negatives of staying in the union.
you never consider the negatives of leaving the EU.

I have always maintained that I am not a big fan of the EU but the fact is it is the best option for the UK going forward

Well we are approaching the next stage in the stitch up today ,despite David Cameron stating quite clearly when calling the referendum what it was .
Leave the EU leave the single market and leave the customs union, what's on the table is nothing like what was voted for all those years ago .

My central argument over 2 years ago is that the powers that the powers that be wont let us leave the EU or we will leave with a deal that means in effect that it makes no difference to us being in ,as we approach the end game (although its far from finished ) that's all that's on offer ,its a betrayal and as Ive recently stated Id rather stay in than leave under Mays terms.
The cynical way that she has run down the clock b4 trying the bums rush with a last min shit deal smacks of treason to me ,she should be in the Tower .

The massive amount of propaganda for staying since the vote tells me everything you need to know about the non democracy we live in and the BBC has been in the Vanguard for project fear since day one !

Discussing this with Rob and flush on here has been like playing chess with a pigeon.
The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.shits all over the board,then struts around like it won.
Im tired of it now Ive only kept it up this long because im a pedantic cant who never gives up on a fight but it has been draining.

Well we are approaching the next stage in the stitch up today ,despite David Cameron stating quite clearly when calling the referendum what it was .
Leave the EU leave the single market and leave the customs union, what's on the table is nothing like what was voted for all those years ago .

My central argument over 2 years ago is that the powers that the powers that be wont let us leave the EU or we will leave with a deal that means in effect that it makes no difference to us being in ,as we approach the end game (although its far from finished ) that's all that's on offer ,its a betrayal and as Ive recently stated Id rather stay in than leave under Mays terms.
The cynical way that she has run down the clock b4 trying the bums rush with a last min shit deal smacks of treason to me ,she should be in the Tower .

The massive amount of propaganda for staying since the vote tells me everything you need to know about the non democracy we live in and the BBC has been in the Vanguard for project fear since day one !

Discussing this with Rob and flush on here has been like playing chess with a pigeon.
The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.shits all over the board,then struts around like it won.
Im tired of it now Ive only kept it up this long because im a pedantic cant who never gives up on a fight but it has been draining.

Thirty months ago I completely accepted the result. The thing is it then became apparent that leaving wasn't actually that straightforward.
Then we found out that the Leave campaign had been based on lies. Because we live in a democracy we should be able as a country to change our mind. There does seem now to be a majority in the country who want to remain in the EU. The PM has come up with a version of Brexit which fulfils the criteria of the 2016 vote but no one seems to want this now. No deal is not an option - no one voted to be poorer.

I agree though Herd that the whole thing is a complete mess and I will never forgive Theresa May and her Conservative Party for the damage that they are doing to the country. The other problem is the Labour Party . If they had a normal leader they would be on course for a landslide at the next election. Instead they have some scruffy who is also doing great damage to the country through his indecision.

Whatever happens now I do fear for the future direction of the country because politicians are fast losing the trust of the people.

Ere we go, ere we go
Another political fudge by the remoanista brigade, I do agree that The Mayhem should resign after being defeated and a competition of rock paper or scissors should define the party's next leader

Well we are approaching the next stage in the stitch up today ,despite David Cameron stating quite clearly when calling the referendum what it was .
Leave the EU leave the single market and leave the customs union, what's on the table is nothing like what was voted for all those years ago .

My central argument over 2 years ago is that the powers that the powers that be wont let us leave the EU or we will leave with a deal that means in effect that it makes no difference to us being in ,as we approach the end game (although its far from finished ) that's all that's on offer ,its a betrayal and as Ive recently stated Id rather stay in than leave under Mays terms.
The cynical way that she has run down the clock b4 trying the bums rush with a last min shit deal smacks of treason to me ,she should be in the Tower .

The massive amount of propaganda for staying since the vote tells me everything you need to know about the non democracy we live in and the BBC has been in the Vanguard for project fear since day one !

Discussing this with Rob and flush on here has been like playing chess with a pigeon.
The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.shits all over the board,then struts around like it won.
Im tired of it now Ive only kept it up this long because im a pedantic cant who never gives up on a fight but it has been draining.

I voted remain but I'm past caring now tbh. Just want someone to have a clear plan even if It's No Deal. At the moment we're going to "sleepwalk" to no deal and come March 30th no one will have a clue what to do next. Right now I'd happily take an arch Brexiteer taking over from May, announcing that we will be leaving with no deal, then at least we'd know where we want to go. Sick of the uncertainty and in fighting

Well I predicted a resignation, but as she holds on for dear life Corbyn calls for a vote of no confidence in the Government, something the 1922 committee could not achieve....
Should be fun tomorrow.....

Well we are approaching the next stage in the stitch up today ,despite David Cameron stating quite clearly when calling the referendum what it was .
Leave the EU leave the single market and leave the customs union, what's on the table is nothing like what was voted for all those years ago .

My central argument over 2 years ago is that the powers that the powers that be wont let us leave the EU or we will leave with a deal that means in effect that it makes no difference to us being in ,as we approach the end game (although its far from finished ) that's all that's on offer ,its a betrayal and as Ive recently stated Id rather stay in than leave under Mays terms.
The cynical way that she has run down the clock b4 trying the bums rush with a last min shit deal smacks of treason to me ,she should be in the Tower .

The massive amount of propaganda for staying since the vote tells me everything you need to know about the non democracy we live in and the BBC has been in the Vanguard for project fear since day one !

Discussing this with Rob and flush on here has been like playing chess with a pigeon.
The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.shits all over the board,then struts around like it won.
Im tired of it now Ive only kept it up this long because im a pedantic cant who never gives up on a fight but it has been draining.

Very Eric Cantona-esque Herd I have to remember that one!

You said the Government would win the vote, they didn’t. You said there wouldnt be a brexit, you might be right. My point is if you throw a dart at a board eventually you have to hit treble twenty.

There is no propaganda for remaining in the EU, we are all better off for it. Every type of Brexit even the one voted against last night would result in lower growth. The CBI and the British Chambers of Commerce are both warning about hard brexit. The BCC in particular is non politicised and its companies that are members of this organisation will suffer, and ultimately stop hiring or even lay off staff.

With regards to immigration, the Europeans arent coming in the numbers they used to. Yet from other parts of the world its increasing. Does that not suggest floors in Government policy more than EU membership?

Quite right Rob , many brexit voters do not see this as a true split from the Union . In fact it ties us in to the pervasive mob ad infinitum. Most of us voted to leave and this really does not do that.
I too doubt that there will be riots over a brexit failure because most Brexit people are fairly level headed and not extremists that show their resentment when things don't go their way.

And yes the car industry is failing worldwide but that's not because of Brexit , the clue is worldwide. Mainly it's because of the deceitful practices of the German automotive industry which highlighted the emmisions problem and particulate levels of diesel engines.
Companies are cutting down on purchasing or leasing new cars and subsequently the market has slowed . Whether Nissan stays or goes is moot , Iwould expect them to reduce the British capacity but I doubt that they will leave completely unless Brussels comes up with an incentive to do so.

The car industry isn't failing worldwide, it's in rude health in places other than Germany. Try Japan, Korea and the United States. Tesla anyone?

You just choose to pick on Germany because of an emissions scandal, but it isn't only German car manufacturers that have pushed diesel cars onto us selling the fact they are cleaner than petrol engine vehicles, when it has turned out that they are anything of the sort.

Why can't you accept they manufacture better goods than we do, not just cars but electrical and domestic appliances? I would rather have a BMW than a Mini Metro (there is a reason they are no longer mass-manufactured).

yesterdays vote was very predictable
todays vote even more predictable

however as I said on here a couple of weeks ago - yesterday was the chance for Brexit to happen. the MPs have gone against the will of the people.
yet Brexiteers are all rejoicing

it is just a question now of how the UK stays in the EU.
we saw yesterday that there is no majority in Parliament for a Brexit deal, well equally there is no majority in Parliament for a no deal Brexit.
that only leaves one option. European Council leader, Donald Tusk has spelt it out for us "If a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal, then who will finally have the courage to say what the only positive solution is?",

You said the Government would win the vote, they didn’t.No flush as usual you lie ,I said I was worried they might as there were a lot of flakey labour MP's who might no accept the opposition whip
You said there wouldnt be a brexit, you might be right.Im not happy about it but everything this government has done has been to thwart and undermine the whole Brexit referendum
My point is if you throw a dart at a board eventually you have to hit treble twenty.Your very smug for a fool aren't you

There is no propaganda for remaining in the EU, we are all better off for it.You really are a brainwashed drone the remoan faction has spent billions on propaganda dressed up as facts much of it you have regurgitated on here
Every type of Brexit even the one voted against last night would result in lower growth. as previously explained GDP growth doesn't necessarily mean a healthier economy ,please try and learn that one The CBI and the British Chambers of Commerce are both warning about hard brexit. The BCC in particular is non politicised and its companies that are members of this organisation will suffer, and ultimately stop hiring or even lay off staff. Please I almost fell off my seat then ,the CBI and the BCC aren't Political ??? Where do you live flush Narnia ???? If May had prepared for a haard Brexit 2 years ago we wouldn't be in this mess but her deliberate policy of dragging her heels ,which if you look I warned about 18 months ago has left us with 2 months to prepare for it which is why they wont allow it to happen

With regards to immigration, the Europeans aren't coming in the numbers they used to. they are already here flush ,and whilst the numbers are down they are still coming ,just walk round London and you hardly hear a Uk accent.
The economies of Spain, Greece,Italy,Portugal are in the toilet and their people have moved En Masse to London to find work
Yet from other parts of the world its increasing. Does that not suggest floors in Government policy more than EU membership?I presume u meant Flaws ,We should have had a cohesive immigration policy across the Eu but they never managed it because welfare of individuals is a very low priority in the EU and is another but not the only good reason for us leaving . Our intake people from outside the Eu is threatening our very existence as a nation ,the vast majority of the non eu immigration are plugging into the ample bosom of the Welfare state and it's not sustainable ,we don't have the infrastructure to cope with mass migration on this scale housing ,health and schools cannot cope with the mass immigration we have seen I the last 30 years especially if the immigrants aren't paying for themselves ,its simple maths .
[/quote]