Jesus is the reason for the season…

Margaret, I was going to send you a Happy Holiday wish, but then I watched that debate out of Iowa. It just took the Merry out of my Christmas. The Republican Party has more hate and ignorance in its Primary than the entire line-up of Real Housewives of Pick Any City on Bravo. Let me just go down the line-up for you…

Michele Bachman is crazy. Just ask the voices in her head. But you’ve got to give her credit for trying. No money. No staff. No clue. And yet she’s still out there plugging away. Bless her heart.

And then there’s that guy from Oz… I mean Texas. No brains. No heart. No Friends of Dorothy. Rick Perry hates gays. Just ask him. He likes Tim Tebow a little too much for my comfort, but I’m pretty sure that’s just a Sunday morning quarterback kind of thing. You’ve got to give him credit too, however. He’s trying. There’s something wrong in this country when gays can serve openly in the military but Perry can’t seem to get above ten percent in the polls with all those God-fearing, good Republicans out there in Iowa.

Which brings us to that pizza guy. When everyone went soft on Perry, it looked like Herman Cain would rise like pizza dough to the occasion – something that tends to get him in trouble.. Now that Herman has what we used to call the wandering eye – and not the kind that can be corrected with glasses. He’s got the kind that eventually catches up to you when you run for political office. (But speaking of glasses, I really liked the pair Barbara was wearing on her 10 Most Fascinating People of 2011. Of course when Donald Trump glowed on, I thought maybe it was a rerun from 1984. But that’s another story for another time.) Herman Cain was on the show and that’s who I want to talk about. Before he sang Barbara a little song, ole’ Herman told her he couldn’t prove it, but he was pretty sure he was attacked by the media because he was a black Republican. Well, he’s half right. Republicans don’t really like blacks. In fact that political party is about as diverse and tolerant as an audience at a Celtic Women’s concert. But again that’s another story. As a Black Republican, Cain’s pizza was never getting out of the box. But the media didn’t report on that. What they did report on was the other problem with Cain – the one that had nothing to do with the color of his skin. It had to do with how his pepperoni kept landing in places it didn’t belong. Honestly though, with as much time as the Republican party tries to get involved with a woman’s uterus, you have to wonder why a little touchy-feely is so offensive to them. But about that black thing. I can’t figure it out either.

So Cain got ousted and in walked Newton, the whitest and meanest politician north, south, east and west of the Pecos. I hear he shoots his ex-wives when they get out of line or go into the hospital for cancer treatment. But again, another story for another time. Newton Leroy Gingrich grew up Lutheran became a Southern Baptist, and eventually converted to Catholicism. Now that’s a whole lot of religion packed into one person. No wonder the Republicans like him so much. But Newt is exactly what those Tea Party Republicans say they don’t want – a fat cat politician. The only people who made more money screwing the government than Newt were Goldman and his son-in-law Sachs – two Jews. Go figure. Newt doesn’t want to be President. He wants to sell books and give speeches. Honestly. Can we just move on? Republicans can’t elect Newt because they can’t raise taxes enough to afford his salary.

And so you have Willard Mitt Romney. Both of them. The Republicans really, really, really want to vote for the Romney who is tough on immigration, against abortion and can’t stand Obamacare. Unfortunately they have an issue voting for the Romney who is soft on immigration, votes pro-choice and believes in universal healthcare. And we can’t forget about that Mormon thing. Is he a Christian or isn’t he? Maybe one is and one isn’t. Maybe he could borrow one of Newt’s religions.

But thank goodness there’s always Jon Huntsman. He’s still in it, right? Someone should research that. Is he still in it? Oh, but wait. Huntsman is a Mormon too. Darn those religious prerequisites. Thank goodness Newt still has one religion to spare.

So really that just leaves us with Rick Santorum and Ron Paul. One is fascinated with a dog having sex with a man and the other looks like a dog had sex with a man. You know. I really don’t have a problem with that.

Shame on me. That was cruel. A woman with an ass as fat as mine, shouldn’t be making fun of the way people look. Mr. Paul, I’m sorry. I went for a laugh and that was wrong of me. In truth, you’re the guy who scares me the least. Probably because you have no chance of winning and you’re the candidate most likely to run as a third-party candidate if you don’t win the GOP nomination. That could be detrimental to the likely Republican nominee if you pull too much support from Republican voters who can’t decide between Willard Mitt Romney or Willard Mormon Romney.

I guess it’s Merry Christmas after all, Margaret. And a Happy New Year. Thanks for stopping by.

And welcome home to our returning troops. We’re proud of you. I mean it really.

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Can you read? I said I had to step away for a bit, which turned out to be a couple of weeks. We have lives, and those do not always include addressing every petty comment made on an obscure blog. I hate to generalize, but I have found that this is the typical reaction of the Conservative mindset, although not all of those who call themselves conservative (read that, Anonymous and comprehend it, if you can). Only they and their concerns are of any value, and the world must revolve around the Conservative agenda; all else is secondary.
Yours is the reaction of a child, really more reminiscent of a small dog barking away at the arrival of the postman, then celebrating his triumph when the postman goes on about his work. Yours was not the reply of a serious adult.

“BTW you thinking the child should have known that at the age of 7 is pretty dam(laugh it up Cynthia) weak.”

Can you read? I didn’t say they should have “known” at age seven, I said they were being taught critical thinking. Try to concentrate.

“Another truth. Liberals are really afraid to say yes or no to a direct question. I guess that whole being accountable frightens them more than I realized.”

Again with the childish reactions. Some questions are more complex than “yes or no”. Adults understand this.

Here is the problem with someone like you. You really have no fresh insights, nothing new to bring to the discussion, no truly useful dialogue to contribute. You have only what Rush, Hannity, Savage and Miller have told you and you regurgitate that without checking to see if it’s true or valid. Anytime your concepts are criticized or debunked you react with insults, then when your target responds in kind you withdraw to the corner yelping about “Liberals are so mean with their personal attacks” mantra.

Grow up, think for yourself and perhaps then you will have something to contribute.
Now, I predict your only response will be to compose another “Liberals are mean, and they run away!” bit of childishness. I may or may not check back to see if I’m right; again, life calls. You might try to get one.

THANK YOU GW BUSH!!! We are no longer a Super Power because you started TWO WARS (Iraq was started with lies) WHICH DRAINED OUR ECONOMY and along with Tax Cuts and de-regulation = created a financial crisis along the longs of the GREAT DEPRESSION! Thankfully, President Obama kept us out of the Great Depression range.

delurkergurl, Could you show any evidence that conclusively shows that the increased pay for CEO’s came from taking away pay from thousands of others? Any documentation at all or us this a wild guess on your part. Bank accounts that show transactions, a paper trail of any kind? Anything?

How can it be that the median income has declined so much? CEO pay jumped 26% last year. For every CEO that jumped so much in pay, THOUSANDS of other must have declined to offset them. It seems income is trickling UP. Who’d have thought that possible?

America’s longest economic recession since WWII, ended in June of 2009. The recession’s end means that our economy has allegedly been in recovery mode since July of 2009, more than two and a half years.

If we are in recovery, why have American’s incomes dropped more during the recovery than they did in the recession? The facts are clear.

Personal incomes fell during the recession by 3.2%.

During the recovery (since July 2009), personal incomes have fallen an additional 6.7%.

JJ- the problem with Boddy’s thesis is that those stinkers didn’t just sneak into top business posts. There were shifts in the attitudes of the general populace which set the stage for some of those rotten folks to get where they did,
The elevation of the competitive-entrepreneur-spirit into something
well beyond a personality type , something to be universally emulated ,in the 80s contributed. The Protestant work ethic we all love to spout about became enmeshed with economic neoliberal fantasies, the resurgence of trickle-down ideas, with a strange dash of “ownership” society sprinkled on top.
We truly started holding those folks up as the be-all, end-all of the American dream.
At least until they bit us all in the collective butt.
If we don’t get honest about ALL of us presiding over our own messes we won’t solve any of this stuff. I agree that there have been years and years of feeling like no one is listening as these creeps got where they did and Phil Gramm et al handing them the ability to do what they did/do but in the end we-the-people let it happen.
James @7:29- sounds good but not true.
Centrist philosophy of Obama has it’s failings but not in psychopathy.
PFesser-
This post and some links in it to a wide ranging set of discussions about Paul I think you’ll find interesting. Paul does not float my boat at all but the conversations springing up around his stances are interesting- to say the least.http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/no-stoller-and-sullivan-there-is-no.html

Donald has no intention of running. He is getting free publicity for his apprentice show. You will take note that all his appearances he mentions the show and how he will make a decision based on something going on with the show.

Boddy argues in a recent issue of the Journal of Business Ethics, such people are “extraordinarily cold, much more calculating and ruthless towards others than most people are and therefore a menace to the companies they work for and to society.”

How do people with such obvious personality flaws make it to the top of seemingly successful corporations? Boddy says psychopaths take advantage of the “relative chaotic nature of the modern corporation,” including “rapid change, constant renewal” and high turnover of “key personnel.” Such circumstances allow them to ascend through a combination of “charm” and “charisma,” which makes “their behaviour invisible” and “makes them appear normal and even to be ideal leaders.”

According to Bloomberg News, Boddy says their personalities also helped them destroy the economy: Until the end of the 20th Century, everything was going smoothly — companies were “stable and slow to change” — until these guys elbowed their way in.

What both amuses and confuses me is why this one particular troll who is so incredibly gifted at manipulating the conversation is allowed to set the tone of this forum. Additionally, his compulsive need to get attention from those he holds in such complete contempt is incredibly tiresome and speaks volumes to the type of person he is. I think the most descriptive and accurate label for his behavior in this forum is: pathetic and desperate attention whore. I’ve now earned my place in his tired and empty platitudes. Wait, wait, wait… I’ve got it now; he’s a platitudinarian – someone who indulges in empty remarks made as if they are important. If you feel a need to feed this troll, just call him Plati for short or Padaw after the above label. No matter what you do, you won’t make it suck to be him anymore than it already does.

Remember, once the troll goes into broken record mode, feeding him becomes wearisome and wastes time better spent on more worthy pursuits!!! I think I will now follow my own advice.

BTW: The cost of Iraq is going to be 3 Trillion when you factor in the disabilities and medical expenses which are afflicting our young heroes.
(At some point, we actually need to factor in the cost of wars and the injuries which they create.)

Jo-Gina, we can’t pay our bills kiddo. How compassionate will you be feeling when you have to tell all the poor and old people that there is nothing left to give them? Better to pay what we can afford rather than spending ourselves into insolvency. What story will you tell your kids when they are born and have the first 10 years of their salary going to pay for your social programs today?Check out my video on Dec 31st. That is the future Obama is promising you.

Fact: Germany auto workers make more money and the company makes more profit because they have a strong union. The US could learn something if we took the time to check it out. Quality products are made with quality workers who are paid a livable wage. (They could even afford to buy the product they are making – imagine that.)

Trump said that he’s “aware and flattered” by his “supporters” filing this paperwork in Texas. Y’all, the odds of Donald Trump having any supporters in Texas is about the same as the Astros winning the pennant. On the other hand, the odds of some Democrats thinking this is funny are pretty damn good.

Trump says that he’s still considering a third-party run “if the Republicans nominate a candidate who cannot defeat Obama.”

Go on ahead and mark me in the column of Democrats who think this is funny. I didn’t file the paperwork, but I’ll sure sign the petition and notarize it for free.

The number of donations of $100-million or more last year was also impressive.

“Ten people committed that much, an increase from 2010, when only six philanthropists gave $100-million or more, and from 2009 when seven donors announced gifts of that size,” reports Philanthropy. “What’s more, gifts of $1-million or more totaled $5.4-billion in 2011, compared with $3.6-billion a year ago.”

The Tea Party was a protest against a TAX imposed on tea to benefit the East India Company. The local merchants felt their businesses were being constrained. So, yes those folks opposed big business and big government.

The British were trying to be reasonable. They believed that since the colonies benefited from the outcome of the French and Indian War they should help pay the cost. They thought the colonists were being ungrateful.

Google The Dandy Warhols-Sleep 2000-Thirteen tales from urban bohemia uploaded by rayoflightcanada. It gives a good pictural history of the Middle East beginning with the 1917 Balafor Declaration to Obama’s first Middle East conference.

As far as I know, Poolman is right. However, today’s Israel is the one of prophesy, the one the Bible said would exist before the end of the world and the coming of Jesus. I have a brief memory of my mother saying founding of the new nation of Israel was the beginning of the end of the world. Therefore the Zionist movement has nothing to do with the Biblical Israel, though many people might confuse the two.

There are no allies only common interests. In that respect, Israel is our ally.

I also know about the USS Liberty. Israel sank it because it conflicted with their interests. Both sides white- washed it, again, because common interests seemed more important.

hey JJ…
I don’t have a problem with “And let me tell you, the idea of any of these people getting nuclear weapons scares the shit out of me.”
If it helps make things better in North Korea then its fine with me….Maybe Aneedahandjob should be worried also…..

There is a lot of misinformation and disinformation about Israel the nation, Israel the people, Israel the person, and Israel the spirit in biblical context. The Zionist movement however, advocating for a homeland for Jews, is less than 200 years old. It is a secular movement and not based on the Judaic faith. It is also a racially separatist movement by design.

Israel is its own ally, operating in its own interest. It is not a democracy nor has it been “our most reliable ally in the region”. That is what we hear over and over, but it doesn’t play out in fact.

They have used us to establish themselves and still profit the most from us.

Greytdog, there are other reasons including what anon wrote to support Israel. Evangelical Christians, of whom I am not, believe Israel fulfills Biblical prophesy, so they are charged with supporting the nation.

Israel is our most reliable ally in the region. That is another reason people support Israel.

Many others would like to see Israel disappear for various reasons. Singer Katy Perry, a Christian tweeted that she was praying for Israel, and she retreated after her message set off a set of angry tweets with a tone similar to yours.

Jo-Gina, me thinks you have finally lost it. Nice work of fiction by the way. But not really. I do want to thank you for destroying your own credibility. You are doing more for helping the conservative cause than anyone else on this blog by showing how cooky Liberals are. Thanks again and keep up the good work.

PYONGYANG (The Borowitz Report) – The following is a letter from Kim Jong-un, Supreme Leader of North Korea, to the people of Iowa.

Dear Voters of Iowa:

In December I became Supreme Leader of North Korea. Pretty amazing development for a twentysomething who at the time was still living at home and spending all day playing Angry Birds. But there I was, receiving the cheers of millions of North Koreans, who usually don’t get that excited unless they’ve caught sight of a pork sandwich. (LOL)

Here is why I am writing to you today: on Tuesday, you will go to your caucuses and choose from among a field of Republican presidential candidates. And let me tell you, the idea of any of these people getting nuclear weapons scares the shit out of me.

This is just one of many differences between your country and mine. In North Korea, we lock up the criminally insane. In America, you let them debate on TV. Right now you have people running for President I would not trust to take care of my plants.

So who do I recommend you vote for on Tuesday? In a word, me.

If you think about it, I am the most Republican candidate of all. In North Korea, we have no taxes. We have achieved that through a conservative policy of no jobs. Also, we have no wasteful “big government” programs providing food, shelter, or safe drinking water. And am I pro-life? Well, try this on for size: I believe that life begins at conception and ends at starvation.

Now, I know what you’re thinking: I’m too young to be President, since I’m under 35. Well, who would you rather have running your country, someone who’s under 35, or someone whose IQ is under 35? (LOL)

I think when you look at all the facts, voters of Iowa, you’ll realize that Kim Jong-un is the Republican who most deserves your vote. And if you’re still not convinced, remember this: at least I’m not Mitt Romney.

I understand your confusion Greytdog. You see it is possible to support an ally without telling them how to run their nation. You seem to be very passionate about Israel and condemning Republicans for supporting them. You wouldn’t be one of those people advocating the elimination of Israel off the face of the earth would you? Then there is the whole apples and oranges thing. IF memory serves it takes about 6 hours to fly across the US. 6 minutes to fly across Israel.

Every time I see/hear a Republican bewail socialism on one hand while “upholding” Israel with the other, I almost spew my matzoh ball soup across the room. Israel IS a SOCIALIST country you jackasses. Ever hear of the kibbutzim movement? Yeah, it built Israel. Not those west bank settlements where American Jews go to reproduce American suburbia with a fringe of Orthodoxy, or those radical in-your-face EvangelicalsForIsrael camps – but the real kibbutzes where community, hard work, & yes, defense, were practiced. You know, if you’re going to claim you love & support Israel, then you better effin’ know what you’re talking about – I mean it. really.

NOP, yes, we mostly agree. Paper routes do carry an element of risk. Johnny Gosh of Des Moines disappeared close to 30 years ago. Though there were leads, he was never found.

No, children can’t be taking jobs away from adults.

Our economy is in pretty good shape, but we also know people on the edge. Our food bank helps some. Our rural community is an interconnected web of cousins and aquaintances. Many of us grew up together.We also know who are in a bad way through their own mismanagement. One was a hot blond in high school, and had I not feared she was an unknown cousin, I might have asked her out. My wife teases me about it, because our friend isn’t especially bright.

However, she is a good friend, generous and nice. She is a widow, and though she doesn’t have much, she invited us to stay with her when the flood closed escape roads to Omaha. She bakes cookies for us every Christmas.

In general I think it is a good idea for kids (teens) to have jobs as well. My brothers were paperboys, but I no longer think that was such a good idea. A couple of years ago, a teenage girl with a per route was kidnapped from her route, then raped and murdered, so if it when my child, I’d have to take them (boy or girl) out in the car to deliver the news. I was a waitress, I was safe and I met a lot of adults I otherwise would never have met. I think many of them had some lasting influence on me. Do I think kids can dust and clean blackboards, of course, it is, of course, absolutely unseemly to take jobs away from adults and give the job to a child. We need more grownup jobs, providers need wages and the self esteem a job brings before children are recruited for the task.
I think we aren’t really too far apart of this. In my area the unemployment is so high, there is real competition for even the most menial jobs. I do understand that it is different in your area, but I have to admit, even here, I can avoid first hand knowledge of the problem (unemployment). Most of our friends are either established and solid, or they like ourselves are retired. People don’t like to air the problems so much in real life, so it is mostly from television news or here on the Internet that I know people with some real hard luck stories. Hubby and I easily write a check to help out where we can locally, but in all honesty, we are kind of selfish with our time.

NOP, our children started summer hand weeding of soy beans when they were five. They did their home work by flashlight in the field during harvest when they were in high school.

Our school janitor had eight children, and they helped him after school. Some of us did too.I grew up thinking kids helping clean after school was the norm. No one used chemicals. They swept floors, cleaned chalk boards and emptied trash cans. All of them are now successful.

Newt’s was a throwaway line I shouldn’t have used. I don’t think hiring legends of children to janitorial staffs is a good idea. Encouraging them to do odd jobs for spending money and pride is a good idea. That sort of cultural feature is one reason coastal employees like to hire young people from the heartland.

Happy New Year! to Margaret and Helen and your loyal fans. Thank you for allowing us to visit your porch even when we abuse your hospitality.

Anonymous, your response to my previous one line comment is a surprise. It is the first time to my knowledge that you have shown even a faint glimmer of your capability to have an abstract thought since you are so absorbed in your solipsism. For once, you were able to put two and two together and come up with four instead of your usual two plus two equals Fox fifty-five. It appears after all this time that you have a modicum of native intelligence. If nurtured, it is just possible that you could begin to become an independent thinking and sentient member of the human family. So far the only feeling you have demonstrated is anger and an obsessive drive to rebut and retaliate everything anyone says. Your problems are obvious to anyone who bothers to do more than scan by your comments.

Think about eliminating the h*** word from your vocabulary and you would be on your way. As far as I can see, you are the only poster here who has ever used that word with any frequency. Please take the suggestion under advisement and work on it. In another five or six years of your free, self-initiated daily and sometimes hourly group therapy sessions here hanging out with liberals, you could make a little bit of progress.

James, I thought you were a closet Liberal, “I believe poor or unemployed people should be working at least part time as WPA folks did during the Depression. Some worked in national parks. Others recorded oral and pictorial l histories. Let them do some sort of job, and maybe some work , like temp jobs would eventually become permanent.” Until you added, “Newt suggested children on free lunch programs could help school janitors.” Janitorial jobs are for parents, not children; Children should be doing their homework during their spare time. We definitely need to be preparing our children for better jobs, already there jobs that cannot be filled, because people aren’t qualified for those jobs. And janitorial work includes the use of industrial strength chemicals.

Greed and self interest are the natural order. Most of what we have was created by people who wanted to earn a good living or to become rich. Our society can not thrive in any other way. Consider the Soviet collectivist farms. Families produced at least as much from their private garden plots as the farms did.

We also cannot leave the people who through bad luck or other reasons fall behind. Farona Harrup wrote that we have brought many of our problems onto ourselves. In the fifties and sixties families lived with in their means, they saved money for a rainy day, and burning a mortgage was an important event. We need to change the culture.

I believe poor or unemployed people should be working at least part time as WPA folks did during the Depression. Some worked in national parks. Others recorded oral and pictorial l histories. Let them do some sort of job, and maybe some work , like temp jobs would eventually become permanent. Newt suggested children on free lunch programs could help school janitors.

Private or government entities could offer job interview classes at times and as some places do now let people choose clothes appropriate for an interview.They could also help people take job training or college courses. Part of the training, which most of us could use teaching people how to conduct their lives and manage their money.

That’s how I would do it. It might cost more money initially, but most people would be collecting government checks for a shorter time than they do now. They would retain some of their pride and satisfaction contributing to society instead of being freeloaders.

I appreciate having trouble expressing oneself; I wrestle with it all the time, which is why I often tell stories of my experiences where I have learned something; I think folks connect better with that.

In that spirit, indulge me a moment.

In the human body, all the systems are not only very complex and interdependent, they are very “robust” – meaning they handle disturbances remarkably well. It is well to be extremely humble as a physician when you feel that you should interfere; it should be a question of “have-to,” and undertaken with great respect because you are disturbing a finely honed – not only ONE system – but a system of systems. It is a hard attitude to attain, because the human brain is attuned to “fixing things” and very poor at seeing the unintended consequences of doing so.

One of the things we studied in engineering was automated control systems; the same principles apply whether you are talking about airplane autopilots, the thyroid gland or economics, and one of the most important principles is how any system responds to a disturbance. If it overreacts, that can be worse than not reacting at all; for example an overreactive autopilot might respond to a gust of wind by rolling the airplane upside down before straightening it out. Likewise, even though an economy without any controls is in the long run very efficient, you have boom-bust cycles that are just devastating as the speculators and bankers keep trying to get just one more dollar. Not a problem for them, but can cause mass starvation for many others. Hope I’m not putting you to sleep here…LOL

This kind of thing happened over and over until the Great Depression, when the world put on certain dampers that tamed the boom/bust cycles quite a bit. Glass-Steagal was one of these. Unfortunately the Wall-Street whiz kids got Congress to slowly gut these regulations, and we are back to where we were. The OWS folks for the most part don’t know their asses from home base, but they are right in principle, IMHO.

I am geek to the core; I read econ textbooks for fun. That does not make me an expert by any means, but over time, as far as economic policy goes, I have come to the Chicago (Milton Friedman) POV. I believe that a well-regulated (as above) market will result in the best prosperity for the most people over the long run. Yes there will be up/down cycles and ripples, but the more the government interferes beyond – and this is important – PASSING REGULATIONS THAT MAKE SURE EVERY PLAYS FAIR AND THE PLAYING FIELD IS LEVEL – almost always make things worse. I think Obama’s boy Bernanke’s money-printing will turn out to be a disaster. It encourages Americans to spend and not save, since inflation will eat up everything you save for tomorrow. If you look at the Federal Reserve’s record, this PRIVATE BANK has never, ever done anything right except when Paul Volcker raised interest rates and held them there to kill inflation. That is a strong statement, but I believe it is true. They are always behind the curve – push when they should pull, pull when they should push.

I believe Paul Volcker and Ronald Reagan had it just about right. They and Bill Clinton were reasonably disciplined and set a policy of low taxes, reduced regulation, low inflation that fueled the longest peacetime expansion in US history. The undisciplined congress, Bush-the-Lesser’s spending, and Barack Obama’s spending are going to lead us to a very bad place.

I am supporting Ron Paul; he is the only one that understands that Congress and the President must submit themselves to the Constitution, instead of attacking it at every turn. He has the kind of “good-doctor” humility I spoke of above. I believe that for not only poor folks and out of work folks, black folks, natives in the Villages in Alaska, returning to government by our Constitution is the only way we can save this wonderful Republic.

My step father has been without insulin since Wednesday because he can’t afford it. They paid for it through the donut hole, but once through it the copay is higher and they ran out of money. They have cut corners everywhere they can and didn’t exchange gifts for Christmas. His diabetes is far too bad to be going without his medication. They asked the doctor for some to get him through but apparently they can’t carry the type of insulin he’s on, though they do provide him with several other medications he would otherwise be unable to afford.

I wonder how many people are in his shoes and how many of them die as a result. We should do better than this in the best country in the world. If I’d known, I would have found a way to pay the copay for them. I assume his coverage re-sets today. I guess I’d better call and make sure.

Pfesser – you have brought up a number of very good points as did JJ. If you have known a man or woman who has been laid off and having difficulty finding another job you can see them begin to lose their sense of pride, dignity and self worth. And the longer they are out of work the bigger the toll on them. IMO there will always be a number of losers/deadbeats in a society who have no problem living off the dole. But there are many valuable people who just need temporary help. So what do we do?

I am having problem put this to words…would it not be the place of community leaders, ministers, teachers etc in your “southern coalfields” to take some responsibility to educate/encourage or discourage people from destructive behavior. Make it known what is considered acceptable and what is not.

I have thought that instead of out right welfare we should subsidize the difference between what one can earn and what it cost for them to live at a reasonable level.

Should we be a caring compassionate civilized society or one where everyone fends for themselves and if they can’t make it then too bad for them?

“Take any conservative position on a social or economic issue and boil away all the rhetoric and what you are left with is “I got mine, screw you.
(snip)
Can I get an amen?”

No, but you can certainly get a “straw men” – because that’s what all your “examples”are – a complete mischaracterization of every conservative issue you list, followed by a denunciation of things YOU made up.

I am about as un-conservative as anybody you will ever find, but sometimes they have a point. Let me give you an example from my personal experience: I grew up in West Virginia, in the “southern coalfields.” When I was a little boy, nobody had much, but there was a sense of pride and the dignity of hard work. Yes there were a few folks who were hard against it, but they were rare and their circumstances often accompanied by an addiction to strong drink. I didn’t know anybody who would count himself as poor; all our families had about the same: nobody went hungry and I remember it as a very happy time.

Then the sob sisters with the leaky waterworks came in from New York; they told us we were poor and depressed. They put folks on the dole; they got the young girls set up with payments for their illegitimate babies and bought them milk and diapers. By the time they were done with us, Night Comes To The Cumberlands was a pretty good description of our situation. It is nothing to find a twenty year-old woman with five children, no husband, no job – and all on welfare. We created these people with our policies.

These New Yorkers (I don’t know why, but all the VISTA workers seemed to be from NY) were well-meaning, but they effectively destroyed us. The worst thing you can do to a man or woman is to make him or her idle; many of the liberal policies of the ‘sixties, ‘seventies and beyond do just that.

There are good people who are well motivated on both sides of the liberal/conservative divide, and there are two sides to every political POV. Not every liberal POV is gospel, and not every conservative is a bastard, and saying so just ruins your credibility, IMHO. There is plenty to criticise on both sides, believe-you-me; I’ve lived long enough to see it all.

The more I thought about it, the more obvious it became. A conservative society is a borderline sociopathic society.

Dictionary.com defines a sociopath as: a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Conservapedia says a sociopath is “someone with a personality disorder characterized by an antisocial behavior and an absence of moral responsibility or social conscience.” (I would have cited Wikipedia but we all know they’re a liberal front for George Soros, I think I heard that on Glenn Beck)

The key words here are “moral responsibility” and “social conscience”. Conservative politics lack these essential characteristics. In their place we find greed, hate, lies, an inability to empathize and an overblown sense of entitlement and self importance. In other words: all the indicators of a seriously disturbed person. Except it’s a political philosophy and it has millions of disciples.

Take any conservative position on a social or economic issue and boil away all the rhetoric and what you are left with is “I got mine, screw you.”

I thought about that for a while. I suppose its simplicity struck me as being a little too easy, a little too sound bitey. So I sat down and made a list:

No gay marriage – Homosexuality makes me uncomfortable (due to misguided religious influence or poor upbringing or both) so gay people should be punished because of my beliefs. Stoopid homos…
No welfare, food stamps or Medicaid – I’m not poor enough to qualify for these programs so my tax dollars shouldn’t pay for it. Stoopid poor people and by poor I really mean black…
No health care reform – Why should I help pay for other people who are sick when I’m not? Stoopid sick people…
No environmental protection – Environmental laws makes things more expensive for me and that’s bad. I also don’t understand the concept of long term impact; I want cheap gas and gadgets now! Stoopid…ah, you get the idea…
Don’t raise my taxes – EVER. The government can find its own money to pay for stuff.
Medicare – Young conservatives: Why should I help pay for old people and the disabled? Older conservatives: Keep your government hands off my Medicare!
Social Security – Young conservatives: Sacrifices need to be made, people should take care of themselves, not depend on handouts from people like me. Older conservatives: Sacrifices need to be made BUT DON’T YOU TOUCH MY SOCIAL SECURITY!
No abortion – The government should tell women what to do with their bodies because I don’t like abortion.
No prayer in school? – GOVERNMENT OVERREACH!! I like The Jesus™ so everyone should have to listen to my prayers. No Muslim prayers, though. That’s indoctrination.
Can I get an amen?

Prior to my therapy, I was in band in school. I have a great appreciation for classical, jazz, and big band music. It was probably as close to having a genuine emotional experience as I ever had.

The therapy worked better than I had anticipated. At about the 2 year mark the flood gates had opened up. I found myself ill prepared for the intensity that some emotional experiences bring. So i am very guarded by what I read and watch. For much of the past years it has been a full on or off experience that has subsided to a small extent to more moderate levels of intensity. Having had a child, I can no longer tolerate any news on children being abused, abducted or killed. Knowing what I know now I would still do things the same way, though maybe sooner. I’ve feelings of guild for those that have passed that I should have showed more concern and been there more for. But the profoundness of having a child with my wife I wouldn’t trade in for anything.

I liked the song you offered up. Not someone I am familiar with. Listening to other selections by her on youtube as I write this. I am find of softer female voices like this. Tori Amos is among my favorites. If you haven’t heard check out Mr. Zebra. Just a minute long song.

NOP, I was sick yesterday, so my only celebrating was with 14 hours of sleep. My wife and I will celebrate today.

Anon, we all have a story, and we are all wired differently. At one time, I thought we were as we were because of how we were raised and how life treated us. But then, why did my father, grand mother, and aunt tell me “You remind me of Great Uncle Charlie. You even look like him.”? As I grow older, I wonder about that. What are/were your ancestors like?

I have my own identity situation. Through my life I “knew” my family was all Welsh and Scottish. Now, after a little digging, I learn my Scandinavian ancestors were violent killers who invaded Europe. Others practiced cultural and physical genocide against my other cousins, the Sami.

I also learned Rene Zelweigher and Joni Mitchel are daughters of Samis. Mormons recruited Scandinavians and are responsible for many of their deciding to come to the US and Canada. Americans sent Samis and reindeer to the North to teach Inuit people to herd reindeer.

The world is filled with much more than politics. Learning new things is better than any drug or alcohol high.

in my 30’s my wife confided me in that I was not the most romantic, emotionally supportive person she had ever met. So I decided to go see a therapist to try and discover why this was, and try to become a better husband to my wife. 2 1/2 years later after much testing, it was determined I had Aspergers Syndrome.

Simply put, I see the world a bit differently than most, I am wired differently. Much of the social interactions that go on between people is a mystery to me. I spent my school years studying people, watching how they interacted with others and used their responses to approximate my own more appropriate response in a similar situation. I eventually got very good at it, but never were the feelings I showed genuinely my own.

I spent most of my 20’s very absorbed in self and gave little consideration to others. At age 28 I went into college and discovered philosophy. It was the first time I had ever been asked to challenge the things I believed. To take the things I held most dear to be true, and to see if they held to scrutiny. I was hooked. I founded my colleges first philosophy club and served as its President for 2 years, and attended meetings for 4 years after I graduated.

I am very much a pragmatist. When a subject grabs my interest, I chase after it. I love to read. I read on average 2 books a month and spend a great deal of time researching various things online. At present I have 21 web pages open on a variety of topics. I am debating with you all here, I am on another blog with a Sudanese gentleman from London and his professor having an argument about photo I.D.s being the tool of the Republican Party to suppress the poor and minorities from voting. On yet another blog I am discussing cosmetology with a gentleman from Australia working on his masters thesis about time and gravity.

My wife thinks my thoughts are very scattered, but in my mind I have everything organized exactly as it should be. I have a very black and white approach and little room or appreciation for grey areas. I think most things in life have a fundamental truth once you get past all the emotional baggage attached to it.

Apologies for being so verbose on a topic that probably matters little or not at all to anyone else. I could think of no other way to convey why I am the way I am doing it any other way. For the reasons mentioned above, I have little notion or desire to be any other way. I see a lot of the banter that goes back and forth to just be clutter that gets in the way of getting to the heart and truth of the matter, and there are only so many hours in the day. There is always another news article, always another book waiting to be read. I understand not observing the niceties is off putting for a lot of people, but it is just the way I am.

Happy New Year! Kind of quiet here, I hope that means you’re all in church and not in bed hungover. If you are, shame on you for inflicting yourself with the honky tonk flu last night. Here is to a interesting and healthy year 2012 for all of us and our families.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but any ill “consideration of the man” is only because of the “man’s” prior words, since that is the only way any of us know each other.

If you want to change your way of doing business, it seems to me more honest to say, “look, I am not happy with the way I have behaved in the past and I am trying to do better.” I did that almost exactly a year ago, and did not come back as “anon.” Anybody can evolve and grow, but the sad fact is that your past really DOES follow you. That’s the price you pay for an ill-considered word in a heated moment. I know.

p.s. You make good points. Why don’t you take a handle so we can tell one anon from another?

Tried that once. Because of how I am, it always ended up being about me, and rarely ever about my thoughts. Who I am, and the people who make this blog what it is, can probably never coexist without degenerating into what we had before. Keeping them guessing some of the time at least presents the possibility that the words are given more consideration than the man.

Pfessor, I am sicker than a dog and my wife and I postponed our New Years Eve plans until tomorrow. I am about to go to bed. However, I believe you are wrong about Sarah Palin. She is as much of an air head as Al Capone, Stalin and Jessica Simpson. She may be a grasping ambitious harpy playing national politics with the rules she learned in Wasilla, but she is not stupid, in my opinion.

When she first appeared on the national scene, Democrats rightly regarded her as a threat, and they sent hoards of lawyers and reseachers to find something to discredit her. The attacks came, not because she was stupid. They came to neutralize the danger she represnted. Republicans would have done the same.

Democrats started the rancor along with Rush. To Bork has become a verb. Clinton used the “politics of personal destruction.” Actually, no one alive started it. His critics compared Lincoln to a monkey, for example.

I’m thinking of Craig and Mageen too. Juneau Joe posted a good link to happiness.

Happy New Year everyone!

Thanks again Pfessor and delurkergurl for offering to donate some money to our food bank as we recovered from our flood.

Happy new year, Margaret and Helen! I hope you’re blessed with a year of good health and happiness! Thank you so much for creating this space where I’ve been blessed to find great friends I cherish very much.

Happy New Year Margaret and Helen and all who stop by here!
Sending extra special wishes for Craig and Mageen and their spouses.

PFesser- I made my once-every-20-years-trip-into-the-big-city 2 years ago to visit with friends and be on Shannyn Moore’s radio show (she is one of my favorite voices-of Alaska ) so when you head this way we’ll have to figure out the 500+miles away dealie . Big state here 🙂

I too feel a great unease about our country. The Ron Paul (banned) commercial really sums it up. I would put that commercial right up there with the Apple “1984” commercial as one of the best of all time.

I just finished a book that analyzed the fall of great nations. It was a book on archaeology, of all things (Once a geek, always a geek). It laid out the steps that all nations go through that eventually decline and fail. It is really troubling, because I see a perfect analogy with what is happening in the U.S. now. The legislatures (and especially Congress) continue to pass laws but never take any off the books, the net effect of which is to put the country in an ever-thickening pool of molasses, making it harder and harder to carry on the business of the Nation as we try to comply with all the new regulations on top of all the old ones. The public school system is a perfect example – I was on a county school board for several years and the system is completely paralyzed.

There are people who know what needs to be done, but I don’t know if it will happen. The Govt really, really wants that “switch on the Internet” so they can turn the whole ‘net off “in a national emergency” (yeah, right) because they know that is how people will get together to tear their little playhouse down. I don’t know who will out, but it’s a footrace for sure – and the stakes couldn’t be higher.

p.s. You make good points. Why don’t you take a handle so we can tell one anon from another?

I just want to say that the conversation around here has taken a turn for the better, IMHO. Simon – I don’t get by here too often so I missed your entry into our midst, but damn fine job! You really hold your own in a pretty tough crowd. Alaskapi – really good to see you get fired up! I’m going to try to get to Anchorage this year or next and maybe I can buy you lunch or something.

I think I know which anons are Noah and Tex, and damned if it doesn’t seem that we are ALL giving and taking and having real conversations for once. NOP, James, and everybody else – good “knowing” you – however much you can know someone online. Mageen and Craig – I hope the coming year is better than the last one. Everybody is pulling for you.

Lots of brain power working here these days. Now THIS is what I came for!

(Of course, it could be my six toddies leading my thoughts astray…it IS New Year’s Eve, isn’t it?)

Again…and again…this conversation was not about if SP was a good politician or not. It was about the LWM crossing the line and doing things that should not be done. Their may have been articles on the Bush twins, but none went to the level that they did with SP. None kept after the twins like they did long after SP was out of politics and no longer relevant. Apples and Oranges PFesser.

Politics for some, religion and abortion for others, make people lose their objectivity and ability to have rational dialog. This blog has been a shining example of that on may occasions. The office of the President has become the latest reality show. It is a mix of day time soap opera and American Idol. I firmly believe we have become so dumbed down and divided that we no longer care for ourselves or our country rather we only care if our sides win, consequences be damned.

Rome was one of the mightiest nations . No one ever believed it would fall and lasted for hundreds of years. Until one day it started to decline, and eventually one day fell. Make no mistake about it, we are in decline. Our leaders have seen this and have for years been quietly curtailing our freedoms one at a time. An Army division deployed inside our borders tasked with protecting the borders and responding to civil unrest. Legislation passed that allows US citizens to be detained indefinitely if they are considered to be disruptive. In my state, the Governor now has the power to take over any city that , by his determination alone, is in financial crisis, and appoint a person or corporation to take over that city for an indeterminate period of time, to be determined by the Governor, regardless of the will of the people elected their officials.

Our foes smell blood in the water. It is when one is weak and wounded that we are in the most danger of being attacked. Financially we have never been more vulnerable. As a country we have never been more divided. We are watching rival countries come together. Russia, China and Iran have never been closer. 3rd world nuclear proliferation is about to become a reality. Unstable nations that actively promote terrorist activities with radical religious beliefs will now have weapons of mass destruction at their disposal. To me it seems we have the perfect storm for a once great nation to experience its final chapter.

I guess where you stand depends on where you sit. I have seen pretty much all the “news stories” you mention. I think they are out of line, but unfortunately – at least to my eye – reflect the debauched state that the American press – if you can call it that – has come to, more that Palin-hating. They hate everybody.

About fifteen years ago I spent 1600 hours in my basement building a homebuilt airplane and most of that time I was listening to talk radio. To my eye, it was Rush Limbaugh who really got this “politics of personal destruction” going – and I listened to him at least half of the time.

All this nonsense with the Clinton impeachment did nothing but harden the Left’s resolve that when the opportunity arose they were going to be absolutely vicious, and they have, but IMHO they didn’t start it. (Not that two wrongs make a right)

The press was all over the Bush twins’ drinking and Newt’s philandering, John Edwards’ philandering, ad infinitum ad nauseum. They go after everybody. (Of course, in fairness, it is Palin who made a big deal out of this “family” thing and outed her daughter’s pregnancy – not the press. It is SHE who dragged that poor Down’s Syndrome baby prop all over hell’s half acre as a political statement, so it is SHE who opened up her family.)

I think they particularly hate Palin because she is a f’ing airhead and the ReBiblicans actually thought they were going to get her elected to something. I think it is the ReBiblican’s insulting America’s intelligence that got them fired up about Palin more than anything. That poor girl couldn’t pour piss out of a boot with instructions written on the heel. (HT to Lyndon Johnson) If you want to get a real idea of who SP is, ask some of the people who actually LIVE in Alaska; the bloggers up there rip her a new one every chance they get – which is pretty often.

Doesn’t matter anyway. Just like Jesse Gryphen said, she and Todd are separated and have been a long time; she has moved out of “fish-pickin” territory and taken the millions given to her by her credulous hangers-on, and has moved to Arizona. You’ve pretty much seen the last of Klondike Kardashian.

Candidate Check: Which Republican are you fools now backing? Last time I asked it was Newt. You folks still Newt fans? It sounds like Newt is pandering to the Palinbots – she could be VP. Which Clown are you pulling for in Iowa folks?

http://wickershamsconscience.wordpress.com/
Overpopulation. Among the crises facing the planet is human overpopulation. During 2011, we rolled the odometer over to an estimated 7 billion. To a deplorable extent, especially in the Western world, the rate of population growth is a function of religious teachings. The Catholic church’s and the Latter Day Saints’ crazed obsession with large families would be two examples. When religious dogma have counter-survival effects, it’s past time to change them. WC calls on those latter day saints and infallible pontiffs to have a revelation: that further growth of human populations is terrible, and must be controlled, that more than two chldren is a sin by whatever definitions they use.

Anon: Be Responsible: TELL US HOW YOU ARE GOING TO PAY FOR THE:= BIRTH OF ALL THE CHILDREN, -THE HEALTH CARE OF ALL THE CHILDREN and THE FOOD FOR ALL THE CHILDREN for those who have parents without healthcare, food or a job!!!

No Ones Puppet: The Biggist Loser and the Iowa Caucus – That is so fitting.

I want to wish all a better 2012 than 2011.
What a weird year. A Congress that did nothing but try to destroy the economy. If President Obama tried to do something, the Republicans stopped it cold – gridlock for an entire year. A year of putting corporate policies and tax breaks over the needs of the middle class. A year of cutting out the safety net under the middle class and poor who needed it because of the disaster of an economy. It was a year of REPUBLICANS INSISTING THAT THE WEALTHY AND CORPORATIONS DO NOT HAVE TO PAY MORE TAXES TO HELP MOVE OUR ECONOMY FORWARD. A year of keeping the disaster which we know as the BUSH TAX CUTS and the REPUBLICANS WANT TO CONTINUE THEM for infinity and beyond – STUPIDITY. Corporate Welfare and Billionaire Welfare got stronger, while helping the little people went by the wayside. Even this liberal blog was essentially taken over the right wing element. C

May 2012 be a better year overall.

I have some very positive people around me – Thankfully. I found this study which has a list of 12 behaviors and actions which positive people do on a regular basis.

16% of GDP is spent on Health Care in the US. It is the highest percentage in the world – yet, the middle class must fight tooth and nail to have their treatments covered. THE CEO OF HEALTH CARE COMPANIES ARE MAKING RECORD SALARIES and bonuses. 60% of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills AND THAT IS FOR PEOPLE WITH HEALTH INSURANCE. I would rather have a single payer program, which would be cheaper and more inclusive, without denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions.

I have a friend with cancer who had to lawyer up to get her $30,000 bill paid.
She won and they paid the lawyer too. She is alive today because of those treatments.

YOU INSIST THAT ALL BABIES BE BORN, INCLUDING RAPE, INCEST, etc.
You say you are accountable: HOW DO YOU FEEL WE SHOULD PAY FOR THOSE BABIES? IF WE GET INTO TWO WARS – accountable – SHOULD THEY BE PAID FOR OR PUT ON A CREDIT CARD?

Of course you will not answer. YOU ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING ACCOUNTABLE!!!

Ahh Jo-Gina, so you are not willing to practice what you preach. Big and brave of you to admit your hypocrisy.

As for your anti government rant, dam straight. Name me one other entity that is more irresponsible and wasteful with their money than our government. I know for a fact WE the people can do much for the economy than the government ever could. FACT!

Despite what antigovernment conservatives say, non-
defense discretionary spending on areas like foreign aid, education and food safety was not a driving factor in creating the deficits. In fact, such spending, accounting for only 15 percent of the budget, has been basically flat as a share of the economy for decades. Cutting it simply will not fill the deficit hole.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24sun4.html?_r=4&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

When the wealthiest pay pre-Bush taxes (which amounts to millions per person) I will pay willing to pay pre-Bush taxes as well, not before.

As a business owner, Noah, you are fully aware that there is only so far you can lower revenue before you pile up big losses. Can your business sustain massive unbudgeted expenses, in comparable scale to an unfunded war?

Just so you are aware. All those wishing to pay for taxes, do not need to wait for an act of congress. There are already laws on the books letting people donate additional dollars that go straight to our debt. It makes one wonder the sincerity of all these rich Liberals who claim they want to pay more taxes, yet never do.

With President Obama and Republican leaders calling for cutting the budget by trillions over the next 10 years, it is worth asking how we got here — from healthy surpluses at the end of the Clinton era, and the promise of future surpluses, to nine straight years of deficits, including the $1.3 trillion shortfall in 2010. The answer is largely the Bush-era tax cuts, war spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, and recessions.

My Taxes Increasing: I would accept a tax increase along with the 1% actually. If we can get back to a sound economy, I will chip in some of my tax dollars. I ask that we don’t start new wars though Health Care, Social Security and Medicare funding would be a good use of my increase in taxes.

LMAO Jo-Gina….$700 Billion in Bush tax cuts..like it is the governments money, and not the people who earned it. I LOVE IT. Did you know that when you get a tax break…you are stealing YOUR money from the government?

Two Bush wars which were unpaid for! Trillion and a half.
(You find the WMD’s yet in Iraq? Or were we lied too?)
700 Billion Per year of BUSH TAX CUTS !! About a Trillion
Prescription Drug benefit = BUSH’S BENEFIT = Trillion

every year starting in 2002, the budget fell into deficit. In January 2009, just before President Obama took office, the budget office projected a $1.2 trillion deficit for 2009 and deficits in subsequent years, based on continuing Mr. Bush’s policies and the effects of recession. Mr. Obama’s policies in 2009 and 2010, including the stimulus package, added to the deficits in those years but are largely temporary.

The second graph shows that under Mr. Bush, tax cuts and war spending were the biggest policy drivers of the swing from projected surpluses to deficits from 2002 to 2009. Budget estimates that didn’t foresee the recessions in 2001 and in 2008 and 2009 also contributed to deficits. Mr. Obama’s policies, taken out to 2017, add to deficits, but not by nearly as much.

A few lessons can be drawn from the numbers. First, the Bush tax cuts have had a huge damaging effect. If all of them expired as scheduled at the end of 2012, future deficits would be cut by about half, to sustainable levels.

“When President Obama took office two years ago, the national debt stood at $10.626 trillion. It now stands at $14.071 trillion — a staggering increase of $3.445 trillion in just 735 days (about $5 billion a day).

To put that into perspective, when President George W. Bush took office, our national debt was $5.768 trillion. By the time Bush left office, it had nearly doubled, to $10.626 trillion. So Bush’s record on deficit spending was not good at all: During his presidency, the national debt rose by an average of $607 billion a year. How does that compare to Obama? During Obama’s presidency to date, the national debt has risen by an average of $1.723 trillion a year — or by a jaw-dropping $1.116 trillion more, per year, than it rose even under Bush.

How much in deficit spending did Bush spend on average per day during his presidency? It’s pretty easy to figure out: $607 billion/365 days = $1.66 billion per day. That’s a lot of spending, Georgie. Shame on you!

But compared to Obama’s $5 BILLION of deficit spending per day? Obama spent well over three times more per day every single day than did Bush.

There’s a deficit. It’s a very serious problem. But let’s not blame the wrong guy.

You say it is unfair because it compares Bush’s eight years against Obama’s four years? Okay, double Obama’s spending. Oops, it’s still just over half of Bush’s. Bush deficit – 5.07 Trillion, Obama deficit – 1.44 Trillion

“Not meant to be a factual statement.” – Jon Kyl’s April press release responding to questions about his claim on the Senate floor that 90 percent of Planned Parenthood’s activities are abortion
“I put an asterisk on my support… One position that I’m concerned about shifting the cost burden to senior citizens. Seniors are saying, look, I’m not in a positon to be able to handle that. I also share that real fear, that’s why I put that asterisk out there.” — Michele Bachmann on her vote for the Ryan Medicare Budget.
“So let me say on the record, any ad which quotes what I said on Sunday is a falsehood.” – Newt Gingrich flip-flopping on Ryan Budget
“Corporations are people, my friend.” Mitt Romney at the Iowa State Fair
“Oops.” – Rick Perry not able to remember the third cabinet department he would eliminate at a GOP debate
“And when they ask me who is the president of Ubeki-beki-beki-beki-stan-stan I’m going to say, you know, I don’t know. Do you know?” – Herman Cain
“Every barrel of oil that comes out of those sands in Canada is a barrel of oil we don’t have to buy from a foreign source.” – Rick Perryhttp://crooksandliars.com/

Oh and FYI Jo-Jo, my child has had a paper rout for 7 months with 1 missed day of work due to flu. Other than his first week he has never missed a delivery or delivered late. Not bad for an 12 yr old. Now if he can do this at 12, I am betting the idiots you claim to represent can do the same.

Anon: * YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF FIRST COUSINS MARRYING – got it.
*YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF ALL ZYGOTES BEING BROUGHT TO LIFE and you would let the mother die – GOT IT!
*YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF THE GOVERNMENT PAYING FOR ALL HEALTH CARE OF CHILDREN (you insist are brought to life) with your and my tax dollars. – GOT IT!

Very Republican of you!!

Which brought me to something of an epiphany. And a New Year’s resolution.

From now until November, when someone races to pass so that they can claim a place in front of me at a red light, or runs their stuffed shopping cart over my foot so they can beat me to the express line, or shares their cell phone conversation with everyone in the shop, the post office, even the theater, I will no longer reach into the sack of familiar profanities and pejoratives. Nor will I attempt the ever-futile, icy “Excuse me?”

No, this year I will answer every rude, self-involved, craniorectal act with the same, simple adjective.

“Wow, how Republican.” “Way Republican, dude.” “That is SO Republican.”

This appellation is effective in two ways. It tags the behavior with a group of Americans who have spent untold effort identifying with the privileged and telling everyone else to kiss off. Not merely as in, “Hey, you should pay more taxes so I don’t have to,” but even, “Hey, shouldn’t your ten-year-old kid be cleaning toilets at the school?”

Two random comments because I feel like it: Charles Darwin and his wife Emma Wedgewood were first cousins. His mother and grandfather were both Wedgewoods. He worried about it.

Caucasians, from the Arabs on down are responsible for most of the world’s economic and technological progress. We are the source of most of the World’s great religions. We have also killed and persecuted more people than any other race. Proud, proud, proud.

I am on Rick Perry’s mailing list. I put myself on it because watching guys who are too big for their britches is entertaining.

I think things ain’t going too well at the Perry household, and it ain’t like that’s virgin territory.

I got a letter from Anita Perry this morning. You know the drill – click the little one to get the big one.
ANON: YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF THE GOVERNMENT PAYING FOR HEALTH CARE OF THE CHILDREN WHEN THE PARENTS DON’T HAVE INSURANCE THEN!! Thank You! Caps are simply to make your point known to all.

ANON: WHY DO YOU APPROVE OF FIRST COUSINS MARRYING BUY YOU DO NOT APPROVE OF GAYS MARRYING? Please educate me.

Okay, let me start by translating here. You know where she says, “hearing from so many Americans who just want their country back?” That means “white people.”

But look at Anita. She’s got one of those “I’m gonna hose you down and set you in a draft” looks on her face. Damn, I know that his whole campaign in Iowa – which, as you recall, was ordained by God because Anita said so – has been about as cheerful as a coroner’s inquest, but Holy Smokes! that woman looks like she’s about to drop a pound of fire ants in his pants.

If you see Rick Perry the day after the Iowa primary, it’s only because he can run faster than she can.

Comments (3)

One Damn Dandy Idea
December 30, 2011

Tom from Plano sent us a New Year’s Resolution that we all should adopt.

It goes something like this.

From now until November, when someone races to pass so that they can claim a place in front of me at a red light, or runs their stuffed shopping cart over my foot so they can beat me to the express line, or shares their cell phone conversation with everyone in the shop, the post office, even the theater, I will no longer reach into the sack of familiar profanities and pejoratives. Nor will I attempt the ever-futile, icy “Excuse me?”

No, this year I will answer every rude, self-involved, craniorectal act with the same, simple adjective.

“Wow, how Republican.” “Way Republican, dude.” “That is SO Republican.”

This appellation is effective in two ways. It tags the behavior with a group of Americans who have spent untold effort identifying with the privileged and telling everyone else to kiss off. Not merely as in, “Hey, you should pay more taxes so I don’t have to,” but even, “Hey, shouldn’t your ten-year-old kid be cleaning toilets at the school?”
I saw this at JuanitaJeans blog.

Anon: I find it interesting that YOU ARE FOR FIRST COUSINS MARRYING BUT YOU DENY GAYS TO MARRY!! You, and Republicans, sure like BIG GOVERNMENT IF YOU ARE PEEKING INTO THE BEDROOMS OF GAYS OR PREGNANT WOMEN.

SO, ACCORDING TO YOU: Tax Dollars will be used to pay for the birth of children when parents DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE, AND GOVERNMENT WILL PAY FOR CANCER TREATMENTS AND MEDICAL CARE FOR ACCIDENTS of children when parents DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

Ethics and morality trump your petty concerns Jo-Jo. We live in the richest nation on the planet. This is not Ethiopia. If you were to look at Jo-Jo’s question it would make one wonder how the human race ever survived without Liberals holding their stupid, incompetent hands.

Anonymous: Accountable – QUESTION: Who pays for all the children born when parents do not have health insurance? Who pays for the child born and who gets cancer or hit by a car? Are you willing to pay for the public education for all of these childen?

DO YOU SUPPORT FIRST COUSINS MARRYING? Are you willing to pay extra for special education services for the children? (Accountable)

“Welfare dollars traded for cash to buy drugs. Thought everyone knew about this.” I don’t think this is even possible anymore, I see people using a card, like a debt card, at the grocery store; they never get cash change, therefore….

Hey Jo-Jo..when you are not busy campaigning to get the sterilization reinstated in NC, how about you put quotes around the things that are not your words, so we can tell when you are vomiting someone else’s thoughts and not your own..thanks in advance.

Another epiphany, maybe it is because I do say things that make me accountable that pisses the people off here so much. They are so used to waffling around, skirting issues, avoiding direct answers whenever possible, too busy being politically correct, that they just don’t know how to deal with someone who isn’t ashamed to say what he believes for all to see. I learned another fundamental truth, today was a good day.

The controversy is over a section in the Girl Scouts’ media guide that advises readers to use sites like snopes.com and MediaMatters to fact-check what they read on the Internet. Because, as Steve Doocy put it on Fox & Friends on Thursday, because MediaMatters is “clearly a lefty blog,” telling members to turn to them means the Girl Scouts must secretly be in the tank for the left.

“No the point was the kids never knew they needed to look #1. #2..and I thought would be obvious…subtract 8 years from the child’s age and tell me how you expect them to understand that there is Liberal propaganda being covertly taught to them?”

Is being aware that not everything put over the internet is true, and that checking with different sources before making up one’s own mind “Liberal propaganda”? I thought it was learning critical thinking.

“By the way…you didn’t answer…do you except those terms to alleviate your concerns of my hypocrisy? If so the above is your first question.”

Are you stamping your foot? I don’t have any concerns about your hypocrisy; it is obvious, but it doesn’t “concern” me. You’re not the first I’ve encountered overcome with I.O.I.Y.A.R. syndrome.
I did answer one of the questions you posed concerning Tea Party Commandments, and asked what else you wanted to know.

No the point was the kids never knew they needed to look #1. #2..and I thought would be obvious…subtract 8 years from the child’s age and tell me how you expect them to understand that there is Liberal propaganda being covertly taught to them?

By the way…you didn’t answer…do you except those terms to alleviate your concerns of my hypocrisy? If so the above is your first question.

“Simon…maybe if you stopped reading between the lines so much, the obvious would not continue to elude you so. It was a going forward message. You claimed, well whined, that I was being hypocritical for not answering some if your precious questions. I know many of mine were passed by as well, so I am making a pact with you, if you are up for it, to answer every question you ask without exception if you do the same.”

“Precious questions”. The bitterness and anger you exhibit is telling. What a child you are. I told you at least one “Tea Party Truth” I disagreed with and asked what else do you want to know.

“So your contention is that ACORN did no voter registration fraud?”

No, it is that, just like with OWS’ purpose is not violent crime, ACORN’s purpose for existing is not to promote voter fraud.
Bad apples create problems for all. Newt Gingrich, for example, makes all Republicans look bad; that does not mean the Republican Party’s charter is as ethically and morally challenged as Newt.
The link I provided demonstrates that the voter fraud claims are not as extensive as the Right Wing media which provides all of your information claims. Also voter fraud itself is miniscule in percentage to the number of votes cast.

Abortion and the RIGHTS OF THE CHILD: Two first cousins get married and have deformed children. Then the children of first cousins could get married the next generation Anonymous and his group say this is right as long as they are male and female.http://juanitajean.com/2011/12/28/lookie-at-texas/

Republicans should get out of the bedroom. Abortion should be a decision between a woman, her doctor and her family.
(If REPUBLICANS INSIST ON NO ABORTIONS and keep ALL CHILDREN, even from first cousins, then they should GIVE FREE HEALTH CARE AND MAKE SURE THE KIDS HAVE FOOD AND HOUSING.)
.

Cynthia, no one but you said you cannot have an opinion, there you go making up things again, just your way I guess. I think your outrage stems from my commentary finally showing you what a loathsome, selfish creature you are. So overwhelmed by guilt and shame you lash out at me to alleviate your inner demons. Unfortunately with your skill sets you are left with only pointing out spelling and grammar errors, but hey work with what you got right?

Simon…maybe if you stopped reading between the lines so much, the obvious would not continue to elude you so. It was a going forward message. You claimed, well whined, that I was being hypocritical for not answering some if your precious questions. I know many of mine were passed by as well, so I am making a pact with you, if you are up for it, to answer every question you ask without exception if you do the same.

“Simon….I started posting on this site almost 3 years ago(maybe longer)….I used to talk about “kicking the tires around here”…….The main thing that pissed me off was the people complaing about how terrible the parties are and how bad they behave(usually libs complaining about cons)…….”

I believe the Right Wing Apologist Known as Anonymous (one of them anyway) has evened the scales.

“How can it be OK for a Dem to do the same exact thing a Rep gets trashed for??????? Bad is bad and bullshit is bullshit……”

It’s not okay. Did I say it was? You might reverse the question and ask Anonymous’ view on that. I will alert you, it seems to be the Right can do now wrong.

“I’ve said before I think there’s to many people in jail for a little smoke but that doesn’t mean that it’s OK to use foodstamp money to buy it and if I have to get drug screened to keep working than welfare receipients should also…..”

In jail for a little smoke? Do you mean marijuana? Where can one buy marijuana using food stamps?
As for drug screening, no one, including you, should be drug screened without probably cause. Wanting a job or needing welfare are not probable causes. I believe such demands are proscribed by the Fourth Amendment, but I have had debates with others who claim the courts have ruled in favor of the searches. This doesn’t make the rulings correct any more than Plessy v. Ferguson was ruled correctly. That abomination stood until the Brown v. Board of Education.

“People have to show ID for lots of reasons……..driving, buying cigarettes, buying alcohol, cashing a check, using a credit card(mine has CID on the back), going into Canada, coming back from Canada, flying, voting in MI,………why not voting all over (OH… that’s right……illegals can’t vote then)………. but thenhttp://papersplease.org/gilmore/id.html”

Illegals can’t vote anyway (Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, 1996). It’s those who are US citizens who, for various reasons, don’t have photo IDs who need to be protected from arbitrary obstructions to their voting rights. That you would include “illegals” in such a group is odd and makes me wonder what else is behind such a suggestion.

You are soooooo right Noah. How dare me to have an opinion you don’t approve of. I should have asked you first if it would be alright to speak. Does the word “some” have any meaning in your vocabulary? Get over yourself, the idea you are great and all knowing exist only in your mind. You are getting a bit boring these days. I think you need to work on your people skills. Just my opinion. The End.

PS – If you are going to use the word “dam” please put the N on it as in Damn. It makes me laugh every time you use dam for damn.

And to everyone here a very, very Happy New Year! May it be all you want it to be.

“I will answer any question you pose without exception if you will agree to the same rules. Without…exception. I feel I have done this to date as noted by the thousands of words between you and I alone.”

At least you didn’t respond with another tantrum…so far.
I don’t know what questions you want answered. It it’s your List of Tea Party Wonderfulness I’ve already stated I agreed with some, not with others. One example, I don’t agree that the deficit is a bad thing vis a vis getting the economy moving. In times of hot economic activity the budget can then be addressed more vigorously. History has shown this is possible.
What else do you want to know? I have already told you I don’t agree with some of the items listed. So what?

“Sorry you missed the point, and the context of the conversation and the point of the videos. I contend that Liberals do not seek to ideologically dominate and win, they attack the person to destroy that person, their family, their friends, and their careers. We wonder why we do not have good people running, and it is because of attacks like the ones I showed. PFesser could not remember any attacks on the Palins, show I linked a few of many showing just a tip of the iceberg of Liberal tactics in politics.”

The Left in American politics have provided not only suggestions on how to improve the lives of everyone in the US, not just the top economic tier, some of them proven past successes. To suggest the Right doesn’t try to destroy people is naive and silly. The attack on ACORN is only one example.

Cynthia, not everyone is as devious as you. Not everyone has an ulterior motive. I think it is again a pathetic and obvious attempt like the Puppet to distract from a very real issue that you are ill equipped to deal with. It is about the rights of a child that cannot speak for itself. Maybe if you were not filled with so much hate and worry of self, this concept would not continue to elude you.

This is my last 2 cents on abortion. I wonder if some of these men who are so anti-abortion have something else driving it. They once got a girl pregnant and/or wanted to get her pregnant and she chose to abort the pregnancy. He is still so angry that she had the nerve to destroyed his DNA that he will punish every woman so it can never happen again or to any other man. The End.

Common ground is good.I don’t think Anon is a jerk, but I wince once in a while, and not just about him.

When I was banned for a few months from the Janeane Garafalo site, a group of liberals including 911 Truthers asked a reporter friend to create a site just for me. Twelve of us used it as they tried successfully to get me reinstated. They teased me unmercifully about my banishment, but when our daughter got married, two sent wedding gifts. We shared personal experiences and helped each other. Three of them and my wife met face to face.

curious anon- if you are noah anon-
No. Not what is going on.
See, sometimes no or yes suffices.
However, in this setup, it’s the setup which has to be looked at first.
Waving away an argument that you have created another straw man instead of posing a real question about possibly viable candidates not stepping up
is not acceptable -especially if you really think you are asking a valid question. Reducing the frame of the question further and further to only accept a yes /no answer , losing the total framework of the original question is just silly.

I am also tired of Sarah Palin, but in the past, I mentioned unfair personal attacks against her and her family. Attacking her policies is one thing. Attacking her as a person or her family is another. I agree with Anon on this.

The Drudge link reports that Romney is leading in some Iowa and national polls, but unlike other times when a candidate led, the others are still attacking each other.

More OWS protesters were arrested in Iowa, about five, I think, were detained outside of the Democratic party headquarters.

Two Maryland doctors were arrested for murder in Maryland for performing late-term abortions and nearly killing a woman.

A friend of ours felt pretty good but after they left their son and daughter in -laws’ home they noticed he had turned yellow. They waited a day before he went to the doctor yesterday and he was still jaundiced. Today, he has ten hours of surgery in Omaha.

Let’s clear this up right now. Noah, people do not attack you because they are liberals. They attack you because you are a jerk. You act like a complete jerk, and people react because you beg for it. If you went to a conservative site and acted like a jerk, you’d be attacked there, too.

you are a self-professed liberal ( or a liberal because I call you one whether you are or not)
hundreds of liberals have attacked me personally
therefore it is your way to attack me too

nice and tidy, eh?

I only attack those who have attacked me
liberals have attacked me
you are a liberal
i will attack you

even tidier?

I’m only speaking the truth
darn liberals don’t want to hear the truth
they won’t even apologize for questioning the truth
they won’t say golly gee thanks for setting me staright
they are barren of integrity and honesty

tied up with a bow?

When a right side Libertarian like PFesser, a left side libertarian like me , an old fashioned moderate conservative like James, and a moderate liberal like NOP can all drop some of the red flag and trigger language with each other and get someplace in a conversation by accepting there is general fault all around and try to find common ground it seems to me that something important and useful is happening.
Dropping the language of extremes as well as dispensing with the game of I’ll -only -deign -to -fully -participate -if -you- meet -my -demands -for -‘fessing -up -to -being -a -total -human -failure crap has had a small measure of success here- even if it’s merely shooting the cyber bull without fireworks.

I answered your “bottom line” about 6 times- explicitly. I don’t see the narrow yes/no default answer you are pushing for as truly answering the question.

And, sorry to disappoint I don’t hate SP. I’m just very tired of so much conversation about her being about everything EXCEPT what she did or didn’t do in office- that’s where her public measure should be taken.

Belittling my concerns about her policies and appointments which have aided in the consolidation and contraction of the fishing industry here into fewer and fewer hands as some kind of personal hatred?
Get real.
“The total value of Alaska’s commercial fisheries is $1.5 billion to the fishermen; with a wholesale value of $3.6 billion. Economists have estimated the seafood industry to contribute $5.8 billion and 78,500 jobs to the Alaskan economy.”http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=fishingCommercial.main

Her policies have “helped” scores of commercial fishermen to have to give up their own boats and go to work for the factory fishers and processors. Progress ourselves right backwards if we don’t halt it!

If more people looked more carefully at the disconnect between what their politicos say and what they do we might get somewhere is a common theme- I suggest we also need to dump the disconnects out here on Main Street too.

I have hundreds of examples on this blog alone of Liberal personal attacks. Hundreds. It is your way, even if you do not have the integrity to admit it. I also have to wonder if in your home you would allow a child to use the excuse that the other kids did it..so its ok. Would not fly in my house. Just sayin.

I understand your hatred of SP, you have made that perfectly clear. I don’t live in your state, so I don’t know what she did or didn’t do, not that it was EVER my point to have a discussion on that topic. So lets just bottom line it, are you ok with how SP and her family were treated?

anon- LOL!
You’ve never proven doodly-squat about the made-up magical monolith you call “Liberals” mostly because it doesn’t exist – just like there is no magical monolithical “Conservative”.
The Straw Man is a Straw Man no matter who sets it up and takes a swipe at it.
But in light of your notion that SP is a good example of why we don’t get better candidates because liberals just tear em apart over unfair things (oh, conservative groups never do that- they are not prone to any human failings, ever, no sirree bob) I’m saying SP was NEVER a better candidate so that boat don’t float from the get go.Straw Man.
Also, I’m saying you are not paying attention if you think only liberals attacked her kids or that a whole lot of those who became rabidly anti-Palin ( do you have a clue about the wackdoodle trig-truther thingy? ) are even more than passingly involved in truly political (the business of the people) concerns, let alone actually being liberals.

You are ignoring a whole lot of things to prop up the notion that good (translates for you as some kind of magical conservative ) candidates never present themselves because the bad people (magical dog liberals) will tear them apart. Do you know SP, your example of a good candidate unfairly done wrong, forced the retirement / not run again of a powerful conservative state legislator by starting a nasty whispering campaign in that legislator’s district? That SP openly mocked and laughed about that legislator’s health problems with cancer on a radio program when SP was a sitting governor? This was SP’s response to that R legislator fighting her on legislation . Way up there in ethical, moral behavior , our Sarah is. Woo-ee.
I have said over and over , in my real life and in the cyber world, that making fun of SP’s kids advances her agenda of playing that cult of personality, no substance of note there, into a paycheck. You make me laugh with trying to press for an answer to “Does that justify the attacks that were made on her family, children and grand children? Does that justify it long after she was out of office? “. I have never attempted to justify ANY attack on her that wasn’t tied directly to her actual performance as our governor or lying-sack-of-spuds political-action-commentary since she quit on us so I’m the wrong person to ask. When you include the dirty tricks gang of Rove, Breibart, et al, we can talk about the stoopid wasteful unjustifiable aspects of politics in general, across the board.
Let’s pretend a couple more things are true here too.
While SP may not be relevant on the national scene anymore , we’ll be dealing with the fallout of her truncated stint in our Governor’s office for some time to come, the tenure of those she appointed to appointments to federal boards like the NPFMC, the 20 year plans for mineral land assays and suchlike which her hand picked comissioners put in place- there is a long list. Each of these things has real consequences for everyday people here and the future of this state. Mz snark-about-crony-capitalism Palin made multiple appointments to important positions which have further solidified the stranglehold of crony capitalists in mineral extraction and fisheries industries.
Palin’s failures as governor to deal with her office’s constitutionally mandated oversight /governing of the unorganized borough (most of Alaska has no mid-level local government – only state and village, no borough or county) will continue to harm rural communities though the current governor has stepped up and taken care of 2 pressing needs. Can’t stand the guy but at least he’s trying to do that part of his job.
I’m thinking we don’t see better candidates across the board because , across the board, we don’t really ask for them. We don’t support them .
As for my house, it’s nice and tidy inside, walk outside is shoveled too.
Nobody else in here either, except my dog and politics bore him.

alaskapi , the whole Liberal thing may piss you off. Too bad. Clean your house up if you don’t like it. I have proven time and time and time again everything I have claimed about Liberals to be true. No one time, with one persons, but multiple times with many many different people. Sorry if the truth came with a little sting on it.

As for SP. Let us pretend for a moment everything you said is true. Does that justify the attacks that were made on her family, children and grand children? Does that justify it long after she was out of office? Do you feel those videos I linked were in order and that this is how we run our politics in this country?

We will agree to disagree on that point Puppet. You are Liberal so it is no surprise that in your mind it is always about you. You keep on taking care of you, I will just care for one more person to make up for your slack.

It is a non-debatable subject, it is not your womb or your life and it is not mine either, but it seems only one of us realizes we need to keep our nose out of other people’s business. Enough of your nonsense, the world is full of real problems, this isn’t one them. And if you think your position makes you more moral than those of us who say it is up the woman involved, you couldn’t be more wrong. Clean up your own act.

I am not changing topics and you know it.
The cult of personality surrounding her is a disgrace on all sides. You want to keep up the game that ALL liberals ALWAYS do rotten things to anyone running against liberal candidates and ignore what I am saying as a liberal?
Go for it.
SP’s largest original NON-fan base here was Republican, still is.
Some who supported her ,like at least 2 R-ex-govs and our Congressional delegation of the time, got tired of her failures faster than any D or liberal here ( there is a distinct difference often times here between Ds and liberals)
A Republican controlled Senate refused to accept her nominee for AG, the 1st and only time in 50 years of statehood that any governor didn’t get an ok for a cabinet position from the State Senate.
One of the most conservative Rs in the Legislature rammed through special legislation regarding humanitarian aid in times of disaster in direct battle against her failure to deal with an important problem here.
You want to keep this about liberals v conservatives go for it- but it has nothing to with the reality of her tenure as our gov.
Liberals didn’t do this to her. People of all stripes did and she used it to advance her myths and lies.
She may not be relevant now but using her as an example of someone unfairly taken advantage of or accused simply because she’s conservative is horsepunky. Asserting it was a liberal plot is horsepunky- the derision and BS about her got out of hand but it was a collective barf across a wide swath of people- unlike the planned, focussed attacks of the Roves, Breitbarts, et al.
There are some Ds who use similar tactics and they make me sick too.
As often as I want to pinch UAW’s face off, I have always respected his “tire kicking”. I’m the one who asked him if that was what he was up to quite some time ago.
Him I respect even when I totally disagree. He usually doesn’t get past asking if it’s-wrong-for-Rs-isn’t-wrong-forDs-too-? but implicit in that is an understanding that rs flop too.
You don’t seem to be able to get there and yet accuse me , who says, Ds/liberals flop too of ignoring liberal failures?
Pffft.

Cynthia, I am not sure if those concerns are valid or not. I will have to give that some additional consideration. What I am sure if is that it is besides the point. It is either the right thing to do, or it is not. It is a strong enough topic that it should stand on its own merits . If your concerns are valid, then in giving the fetus consideration should be clearly defined and limited to the right to life. However some part of me thinks this isn’t connected, but as I said I will have to give it more thought.

Yes I understand your position. But once you give the fetus rights who is to say it will only pertain to abortion? If the fetus has rights when it comes to abortion why would it not have rights when it comes to other situations? Like the mother who does drugs, or drinks, or goes skiing. I just don’t think it will stop with abortion.

oh horsepunky , anon.
There were plenty of attacks on her kids. I never said there were not. So get that straight.
And yes- she capitalized on every snarky stoopid POS remark and raised the ante each time.
The MSM stoopidly or calculatedly made lots of air and radio and print and cyber hoo-rah about it all in the guise of “reporting”.
What a waste of time and energy.
Still is.
You want to talk about her as my governor with me? you want to discuss the multiple fails she had here? The ones all the snark on both sides obscured?

Again this was on the topic of why don’t we have a better quality of people running for public office. As my posts clearly show what Liberals do to their opposition, it is clear why most will not subject themselves, friends, family or careers to this kind of mistreatment.

wait wait wait,,,first it was…there was no attacks on the Palins…now its…do you know she does it to herself, that she encourages it?

If your child said, Mom, I beat that kid up because he was asking for it, would that “excuse” work for you? I also was not making any evaluations as to her abilities as Governor, that is another topic. I am glad you didn’t care about her kids. Most everyone else on the Liberal side did unfortunately.

anon- egads!
do you have any idea how much SP encouraged that nasty stuff about her family?overtly and not?
We tried and tried here to keep the conversation on the crap she was pulling as a governor and any time anyone said boo about her family she flapped on about THAT.
It started to be a game in the MSM (which is NOT liberal) to escalate and report and flap on about all that crap and TOTALLY ignore what that idiot was doing as a governor.
A whole lot of the anti-palin people are as loony , if not more so, than her ardent besotted fans.
She was a crappy governor- she started out ok and went downhill in no time- after the federal VP run she was useless, distracted, and disengaged as our governor. She got away with keeping people’s eyes on the crap about her kids to keep eyes off the legitimate concerns about her crappy job performance .
I will never, ever get over the personal vindictive game she played in filling my state Senate seat which left my district with no rep for a whole session. It took the state Rs in the Senate joining with the Ds to push her to do her damn constitutionally mandated job and fill our open seat.
Don’t give a damn about her kids and anyone, whatever stripe, who wastes time on that did no one any favors as regards a meaningful measure of SP’s success/failure as a gov- which is what matters.
Ignore those idiots just like I ignore the birther idiots- we have real stuff to pay attention to.

Cynthia, this absurd argument tells me that you are very insecure of you stance on abortion.

The problem is that laws are black and white, and this issue is not. This means someone, somewhere, has to draw a line. As I stated before, to have a law that benefits one party and excludes another is almost always bad law. I think a solution is one where both sides of this issue are covered.

One side you have the mother. The mother can speak for herself and can make whatever choice her conscious dictates. The unborn child cannot, so we have to do it for him/her.

To be clear, my position for my home differs from my belief for the nation. For my home, abortion is almost never an option. For the nation, it has to be an option. So where would I draw the line if it were up to me. As we can detect pregnancy in the first week now, and news of a saliva test this week used for cancer detection was discovered to work for pregnancy as well we can detect it even sooner.

We determine that a person is officially dead when brain death occurs. My line would be drawn then in about the 3rd month when we can detect neurons firing in the fetus. At this point I feel it is a reasonable point to conclude that the fetus be given consideration. While I would stop just short of saying the fetus’s rights override the mothers at this juncture, I think we are dam close.

Okay we have determined abortion is murder. The fetus has the rights of a “born” human.
A married mother who planned her pregnancy, her third, who is in great physical condition and is a expert skiier. She is skiing in her third month as she did during her other pregnancies, not being reckless, just out easy skiing for an afternoon. She hits a patch of ice or someone cuts in front of her and she takes a fall. Later she miscarries the fetus. What do we do now? Will it be said she was reckless and caused the death of the fetus? Who determines this? How about the father will he have some responsibility for allowing his wife to ski? Do we charge her/them with murder, involutary manslaughter? What happens to the other children if she/they are in prison? Where do we draw the line? How do we draw the line? (And of course it is also possible she would have miscarried sitting on the couch.) It is not black or white is it?

NOP, changes are afoot this year. Previously, it was winner take all. This year, is proportional. If Romney, for example, wins 30% of the votes, 30% of the delegates chosen to attend the Republican convention will declare for him and so on. In the past, delegates were not bound to the candidate they represented.

There’s more, but we are on our way to Omaha. If you want more details, I will tell you later.

Yes, our caucus is almost here NOP. MIchelle Backmann is sinking faster than she was. I feel sorry for her though I wouldn’t vote for her.

Now, you have probably heard the next hope to stop Romney is Rick Santorum. Iowa Democrats have been more successful than Republicans at predicting the eventual nominee because more Democrats usually attend the caucuses. Moreover, a large number of Republicans who attend are evangelical Christians.

One can switch parties and register as a Republican on Caucus night. This can lead to sabotage from outsiders. For example, only 5!% of voters who support Ron Paul say they are Republicans. The rest are Democrats or Independents. However, on caucus night, they all become Republicans for a day.

Republicans have a secret ballot. Democrats stand up and defend their choices.
In rural areas like ours, the delegates all know each other and engage in a lot of small talk and catching up. People are still talking about our flood, and I suspect it will be discussed some more.

OWS wants to disrupt the caucuses but we don’t need to worry in our small county.

Simon….I started posting on this site almost 3 years ago(maybe longer)….I used to talk about “kicking the tires around here”…….The main thing that pissed me off was the people complaing about how terrible the parties are and how bad they behave(usually libs complaining about cons)…….
How can it be OK for a Dem to do the same exact thing a Rep gets trashed for??????? Bad is bad and bullshit is bullshit……
I’ve said before I think there’s to many people in jail for a little smoke but that doesn’t mean that it’s OK to use foodstamp money to buy it and if I have to get drug screened to keep working than welfare receipients should also…..
People have to show ID for lots of reasons……..driving, buying cigarettes, buying alcohol, cashing a check, using a credit card(mine has CID on the back), going into Canada, coming back from Canada, flying, voting in MI,………why not voting all over (OH… that’s right……illegals can’t vote then)………. but thenhttp://papersplease.org/gilmore/id.html

2011 marked a banner year in the Republican war on woman’s health. Close to 1,000 anti-abortion bills sped through state legislatures as the GOP-led House led a “comprehensive and radical assault” on a federal level.

REPUBLICANS WANT SMALLER GOVERNMENT unless it is peeks into Women’s or Gays sex lives. I think it is interesting that these people are also OK with cousins marrying.

lets get back to OWS…..
Occupy Plans to Occupy the Rose Parade
“America is entitled to one day without politics, whether it’s the Tea Party, the Democrats, the Republicans or the Occupy people,” Alexander said. “The Rose Parade is our parade and we deeply resent any effort to politicize it.”“The real demonstration is going to be at the polls in November and at every other election in between,” Alexander said. “That’s where this battle will be fought — not in petty street theater.”http://townhall.com/tipsheet/townhallcomstaff/2011/12/29/occupy_plans_to_occupy_the_rose_parade

o the various videos provided, is it your contention that attacks on non-wingnut candidates do not exist?

Sorry you missed the point, and the context of the conversation and the point of the videos. I contend that Liberals do not seek to ideologically dominate and win, they attack the person to destroy that person, their family, their friends, and their careers. We wonder why we do not have good people running, and it is because of attacks like the ones I showed. PFesser could not remember any attacks on the Palins, show I linked a few of many showing just a tip of the iceberg of Liberal tactics in politics.

I will answer any question you pose without exception if you will agree to the same rules. Without…exception. I feel I have done this to date as noted by the thousands of words between you and I alone.

To the various videos provided, is it your contention that attacks on non-wingnut candidates do not exist? I know, given the crowd you run with, you have heard the stories of Clinton’s drug running and murder syndicate (we don’t even have to get into Limbaugh’s comments about the “family dog”), and even you can’t have kind of blinders on that you missed the Birther circus.
The point I am making (which I know will be lost, so I am attempting a clarification ahead of the necessity) is that politics is a rough business, not for the timid. Keep out of the kitchen and all that.

“So by your definition the potential has no rights until it is able to breath and its location is such that it is no longer inside the mother. In this case geography is a measure in which rights are granted.”

Not geography, as I noted the first two trimesters are the legal standard we (those of us who seek solutions, not ideologues unable to comprehend dissenting views). The woman’s rights supersede whatever rights a fertilized cell may or may not have.

“Another new word for you. Accountability. He takes them to task when they violate the terms of the beliefs they have set forth for themselves. He is honest enough to take on those even in his own party when they stray. Which leads us to another new word. Integrity. Show me evidence where he tried to destroy a person’s family, friends, and career or I will blatantly call you a LIAR. Use Liberal’s attack on the Palin family as your guide to measure intent.”

If you are going to just deny it and “blatantly call” me “a LIAR” (you seem to be getting quite out of control here. Calm down) why would I bother? You have already set the standard that any examples are to be considered false. Open minded of you.

“What f*cking balls you have to say this when in the context of Sarah Palin. Or with Herman Cain. This is the most hypocritical comment I have ever seen on this blog in any thread by any individual. Nothing was off limits when it came to attacking the Palins. Not friends, not family, nothing. It was a no holds barred attack.”

If candidates for public office take stands which are antithetical to what they actually practice in real life, are they not to be “taken on” for these hypocrisies? You make Limbaugh’s abuse of his undeserved media power to do the same thing a standard of integrity. So the hypocrisy includes you.
Again, it was the Republican voters who decided Cain and Palin were unworthy of office, not the “Liberals”. We would have loved to have either of them in the presidential race. I urge them both to form independent candidacies and run.

“Understood. Don’t feel bad. You are a hypocrite and a coward, and it is these defining qualities that I am sure found you a home in the Liberal Party. Liberals say they hate Conservatives. So I list Conservative values, and they make excuse after excuse why they cannot be bothered to answer. Liberals say they hate the Tea Party. The Tea Party was brave enough; courageous I dare say especially compared to the OWS who use vagueness as a shield; to list their beliefs and intents specifically. So having listed then Liberals make many excuses why they cannot be bothered to take them on. Why? Because they know the truth and common sense are near impossible to argue against. So please, save your excuses for someone who cares. I really don’t care why you don’t have the character or conviction to stand by your beliefs and your words. I only care that you do not, and that tells me everything about you I need to know. If you manage to step up and take them on, great. If not, save your excuses.”

I have “taken them on” by noting that talk is irrelevant. Action is what matters. What were the priorities of the Republican controlled House since 2010? I am beginning to wonder if you know. Few of your list were addressed.
You are quite a generalizer, an exceptionally bitter and angry one besides. I have encountered the like many times, in fact I have had family members of the same mindset. They, like you, express open and often near violent hostility to anyone who doesn’t think the way they do, and are angrily exasperated that not everyone does.
If you are going to address me, address me, not some imagined BoogieMan Liberal who you believe wants to turn you into a communist. I don’t “hate” Conservatives, and stated as much in an earlier post. I believe much of what they appear to believe is mistaken. I may even agree with some of your list, some I do not. For example, as I have noted, there is a place for government intervention in the economy and that intervention has saved the country in the past and will likely do so again.

But the above rant is just an example of self absorption, another Conservative trait you practice. You give yourself permission to make demands on what others address, while ignoring those questions or arguments for which you have no response. More of that hypocrisy. And around and around we go.

My point is that this is not a black/white issue. We’ve thrashed this around a hundred times, Tex. There is NO point where you can say, today it’s a baby; yesterday it was not, because it is a PROCESS – a BECOMING, not an event.

Not Tex. You’re carrying on an argument with a doppelganger. But I would say abortion is the one issue above all others Pfesser where you strike me as both a cold and heartless man – even relish in the abortion as you have made quite clear calling the child bastard. Kind of flies in the face of the practice and basic tenet of medicine if you were to ask me.

But I will say in my doppelganger’s defense, you are terribly inconsistent in your arguments of what represents life. Here, we are dealing with a unique DNA, half the time of the opposite sex. There is no debate of rights because it is clearly two different people by any definition. The best you can say is the rights of the mother supersede the rights of the child in any measure – a conclusion that certainly leads to a really dark place. There are many abortion proponents that have no problem with the legality of ending neonates life. Easily documented, if you require proof.

Last week Pfesser, you used as example brain death as the dividing line of life and death.

Yet brain waves are detected at six weeks in the developing embryo. If I am to read you clearly, you have no problem terminating the pregnancy at any stage.

Since I can’t tell you when, and truthfully neither can you as to what represents the first stage of life, I simply take the pragmatic and prudent approach.

You choose the method which allows the greatest convenience of choice.

I’ll let the readers decide which is closer to the Hippocratic Oath you took.

So does Kelly Clarkson. As when Katy Perry wrote conservative views on Twitter, some of Clarkson’s fans attacked her. She back tracked and wrote she likes his libertarian philosophy, not the allegedly racist ones.

I couldn’t agree more Peas. I read a article yesterday showing that in the last 25 years, income for members of congress has tripped, while the average American today is earning on average $100 less than 25 years ago. And this number does not count for inflation, which would make that $100 a much much higher number.

PFesser, loads I will look them up. I am rather amazed your ignorance on this topic considering how many news stories on her daughter alone, on matter of her being pregnant, the status of her on again off again relationship with the baby’s father to put a question make on Sarah’s parenting ability.

I keep hearing this “attacking Palin’s family” stuff, but I can’t recall that happening. She HAS dragged out that tired old chestnut every time someone voiced legitimate criticism of her – in a vain attempt to throw people off the scent, however. (see “red herring”)

Would you be able to supply some cites on that?

I remember when she dragged that poor Down’s baby prop around to show her bona fides as a real anti-abortionist, and then it was pretty well established that her entire story about that baby’s birth was bogus, bogus, bogus. That’s not attacking the baby; it’s attacking her honesty. I remember several other news stories that involved her family, but no attacks on THEM personally. (Incidentally, nobody has seen that baby with her in a very long time; best estimate is that she has either had him institutionalized or has returned him to his mother.)

I would appreciate some REAL cites showing attacks on Palin’s family. Got any?

I agree Alaskapi. There is not much to add to what you wrote. Short of a disaster which forces change overnight, the process of weaning ourselves from oil and coal will take years. It will also have to be from the bottom up, not imposed from the top down. We have the whole world to consider. Such a change is like turning an ocean liner.

I’ve already written how I feel about abortion and when a potential baby becomes real. My wife and Iived through the fear and anguish when we considered an abortion, and we know one never really gets over the death of a small infant when an abortion is not involved. I don’t know how mothers who aborted feel about it. I’m tired of the subject.

“Abortion is a very hurtful extreme measure that some women, because of their circumstances, are forced to choose. Candidates who use their heart ache to their own advantage are pure evil in my book. ”

Well said. Hear! Hear!

As are the people who twist intent for standing up for ones beliefs into a political gain are equally as evil. It is always sad to see one’s intellect being commandeered by emotion outbursts.

The difference of a fetus in the first two trimesters is not a born baby. The rights of the woman supersede whatever rights the fetus may have, although the fetus really has none until it is a living breathing person.

So by your definition the potential has no rights until it is able to breath and its location is such that it is no longer inside the mother. In this case geography is a measure in which rights are granted.

Please, Limbaugh goes after anyone, particularly those in his own Party, who dares to step outside his Con Box.

Another new word for you. Accountability. He takes them to task when they violate the terms of the beliefs they have set forth for themselves. He is honest enough to take on those even in his own party when they stray. Which leads us to another new word. Integrity. Show me evidence where he tried to destroy a person’s family, friends, and career or I will blatantly call you a LIAR. Use Liberal’s attack on the Palin family as your guide to measure intent.

Hannity helped destroy the careers of everyone in ACORN through the lies and misrepresentation of Brietbart, and continues to give him a forum, in spite of Brietbart’s enterprises having been discredited again and again.

Show me evidence where he tried to destroy a person’s family, friends, and career or I will blatantly call you a LIAR. Use Liberal’s attack on the Palin family as your guide to measure intent.

“Those of us of the Liberal persuasion don’t think a person’s private life, in the public or the private sphere, is of concern, as long as it doesn’t affect the job being done. It can be of concern if the activity demonstrates rank hypocrisy. ”

What f*cking balls you have to say this when in the context of Sarah Palin. Or with Herman Cain. This is the most hypocritical comment I have ever seen on this blog in any thread by any individual. Nothing was off limits when it came to attacking the Palins. Not friends, not family, nothing. It was a no holds barred attack.

inally the “lists” you keep demanding we respond to; I don’t care what people say they’re for or against, talk is cheap.

Understood. Don’t feel bad. You are a hypocrite and a coward, and it is these defining qualities that I am sure found you a home in the Liberal Party. Liberals say they hate Conservatives. So I list Conservative values, and they make excuse after excuse why they cannot be bothered to answer. Liberals say they hate the Tea Party. The Tea Party was brave enough; courageous I dare say especially compared to the OWS who use vagueness as a shield; to list their beliefs and intents specifically. So having listed then Liberals make many excuses why they cannot be bothered to take them on. Why? Because they know the truth and common sense are near impossible to argue against. So please, save your excuses for someone who cares. I really don’t care why you don’t have the character or conviction to stand by your beliefs and your words. I only care that you do not, and that tells me everything about you I need to know. If you manage to step up and take them on, great. If not, save your excuses.

“Abortion is a very hurtful extreme measure that some women, because of their circumstances, are forced to choose. Candidates who use their heart ache to their own advantage are pure evil in my book. ”

and saying it is so doesn’t make it so. For some of us the issue is not a sign of weakness or that we are shallow to consider it.

Fear stops people from talking about things. I hope we stay enlightened enough that in a hundred years we are still debating this issue as we gain new knowledge and understanding of the human condition. Most of you are scared to lose what you have so you belittle and demean the topic and those discussing it. I would kindly suggest you care more about discovering a truth and worry less about the outcome. A key indicator that you are on shake moral or ethical ground is if you cannot allow conversation of your stance to take place. Note I said indicator and not a fact.

“I would like to introduce you to a new word. Potential. Potential has value. What is the difference of a baby inside, and outside the mother at 3 months, 6 months, 9 months?”

Meanwhile “potential” is only something you recognize if you think it bolsters your argument, otherwise there’s no time for such nuance.
The difference of a fetus in the first two trimesters is not a born baby. The rights of the woman supersede whatever rights the fetus may have, although the fetus really has none until it is a living breathing person. A legal compromise has been reached with the third trimester.

“Now you are treading onto my territory, a place you have obviously never gone and are relying on your Liberal rhetoric to pretend to know something. Rush, Hannity, and Savage have never gone out of their way to destroy a persons, their friends, family, or career. Hannity being thee most fair guy on radio or TV, gave a Democratic congressmen 30min of air time the day before the election because Sean had misunderstood something he said to be a racist comment. The congressman spent less than 30 seconds on the topic and proceeded to campaign for the remainder of the 29min and Sean allowed it.”

Please, Limbaugh goes after anyone, particularly those in his own Party, who dares to step outside his Con Box. He mocked a man with a debilitating disease because he dared to speak his mind. Savage is well named, as you know; you are either being disengenuous or you don’t really listen to him. Hannity helped destroy the careers of everyone in ACORN through the lies and misrepresentation of Brietbart, and continues to give him a forum, in spite of Brietbart’s enterprises having been discredited again and again.
Politics is rough business. Don’t make everyone here think you are a fool by promoting such nonsense.

“As for the belief you and your Liberal party is clean, I have 2 words that blow your ass out of the water. Sarah Palin. Look how Liberals attack and continue to attack this person and her family, relentlessly, with no mercy and no boundaries.

When your boy wild Bill was giving Monica the 7 bodily fluid test in the White House when he should have been honoring his marriage and doing the people’s business, you all couldn’t care less about a Presidents personal life. Cain has a few women step up and “claim” he did something, with no evidence, and you are all lathered up into a frenzy.. btw where are those women now? Where is all the proof we were going to see? Interesting huh?”

Those of us of the Liberal persuasion don’t think a person’s private life, in the public or the private sphere, is of concern, as long as it doesn’t affect the job being done. It can be of concern if the activity demonstrates rank hypocrisy. Clinton never ran for office, nor did he serve, as a model of virtue and righteousness. As far as policy is concerned, he was probably the most conservative Democrat to serve in the Oval Office in the 20th Century and accomplished a great deal.
The problem with this is not with Liberals, it is with the Conservatives who cast aside anyone (Newt being a notable exception, at least until very recently) who has the taint of “sin” about them. If Cain dropped in the polls after his controversies, who dropped him in the polls? Not Liberals, who would have loved to have a man so out of touch and confused as a Republican candidate. Now that Cain is out of the running he is no longer a story. I miss him already.

I didn’t say the “Liberal party” was clean. As for Sarah Palin, her private life is of no interest to me. That she is an idiot does concern me, however. I don’t think she’s an idiot because any media told me so. I can listen to what she has to say and easily come to that conclusion. Again, she chose not to run and her popularity among her own support group has waned to the point even she saw the light and chose not to run. No one has “destroyed” Sarah Palin, she is a multi-millionaire and the kind of mega celebrity she has always desperately wanted to be.

Regarding the Tea Party, you demand that all of the OWS movement be held responsible and condemned because of the activity of a few in a huge, worldwide movement, but give the extremists in the Tea Party a pass. Or are you claiming the Tea Party has no extremists?
Thank whatever gods there may be Angle wasn’t elected, but enough of the Tea Party extremists were elected to bring governing to a near halt and quite possibly destroy the Republican Party in the process. But fortunately for them the public memory is the same duration of a housefly and the shenanigans of this past year will be forgotten. However, I am confident the extremists will provide plenty of activity between now and November.

Finally the “lists” you keep demanding we respond to; I don’t care what people say they’re for or against, talk is cheap. It’s what they do that matters. This is why many Liberals are disappointed with Obama. But the alternative is disaster, so we are going back to where there is light, at least, if not as much heat as we would like.

The real value to society of parenthood is adding functional educated individuals to the next generation, that is impossible if the mother is birthing a baby every ten months for years on end. Birth control is a good thing that most couples use, logical human beings do not elect Presidents, Senators, or other office holders based upon their opinions on abortion. Abortion is a very hurtful extreme measure that some women, because of their circumstances, are forced to choose. Candidates who use their heart ache to their own advantage are pure evil in my book. They are entitled to their own opinion, but campaigning on the issue indicates they are shallow, opinionated, and unqualified for the office they are seeking or any other for that matter.

Folks, we’ve all traveled in this same bus down this same road and found that it ends with only enough room to turn the bus and circle the cul-de-sac until it runs out of fuel and we all end up walking home.

I prefer we travel the scenic route while stopping at an occasional overlook and avoid the known dead ends that we are often steered toward.

Logic is all i know what to work with in matters of law alaskapi. I feel the argument presented is to vague to be legislated.

My personal feelings aside. A law should take all parties into consideration. The unborn child cannot defend itself so that leaves us to speak for it. To all rules there is an exception but I feel in the vast majority of cases that any law that excludes one group to the benefit of the other is bad law. I concede that the realized potential trumps potential but not to the point of exclusion.

Interesting: States that allow same sex marriage compared to STATES THAT ALLOW COUSINS TO MARRY!

http://juanitajean.com/2011/12/28/lookie-at-texas/
In a town I lived in when my children were in elementary school two brothers married two (more or less unrelated but from the same ethnic group of immigrants) sisters just after WWII and had lots of kids.

Of those kids a brother and a sister from each side married their first cousins, lived next door to each other and had lots of kids who are contemporary with my children.

The genetic relationship of the second generation is actually closer than 1st cousin, they are effectively siblings but they are legally allowed to be married and more importantly to procreate.

They are practicing members of a mainstream religion which frowns on contraception so despite having miscarriages and terribly deformed babies who died shortly after birth they continued having child after child

Their surviving children, 5 in one family 6 in the other, had their own special needs bus. Only one child from 11 was in ‘regular’ classes the others were all Special Ed.

Anon- PFesser’s argument for process includes notions of potential whereas the argument you seem to be making for potential makes it a stand alone issue.
I would suggest that we squander human potential (and potential for humans) on so many fronts , in so many ways, the “potential” argument has major pitflals- esp as a stand-alone.
PFesser has pointed to a couple of the problems with it as a stand alone argument which make a good deal of sense. Taking the “potential” argument to it’s logical extreme shows numerous holey-underpants problems with it.
We all assume there is a THE logic and that people either have it or do not. I think we all build logical houses to deal with life and some are full of termites we can’t see.

I see the Republican Presidential Candidates are upping the war on women/s rights. It is funny that they like all children born but then will not provide food or health care for them. Even dear Newt is saying he wants all third world countries to not use birth control thus increasing the starvation. Maybe they have a lot of toilets for poor kids to clean in third world countries.

There was crazy stuff brought by Michelle Bachmann who claims that President Obama wants to “put abortion pills for girls 8 years of age, 11 years of age, on the bubblegum aisle.” It is suspected that she means the morning after pill being over-the-counter, which, of damn course, President Obama and Kathleen Sebelius strongly rejected. But in Bachmann’s pretend world ….

And Rick Perry had a Come-to-Fetus moment where he decided that rape and incest are a dandy way for women to have children because of something some woman said to him just recently. God only knows what she said but you can bet it had less to do with abortion than it did with money and power. He said otherwise ….

I will suggest to you that as I signed that [Personhood] pledge … God was working on my heart.”

Sweetie, God needs to work on your head, not your heart.

And Newt Gingrich is starting to make Ron Paul look sane. Honestly, I don’t think Newt would be stable even if you mounted him on a tripod. Every time I head one of Newt’s new ideas about government, I feel like I’m wading in quicksand over hell.

“At what point do you attribute the process is complete enough to warrant the potential to be worthy of consideration? 2 weeks ago a baby was born in the 4th month of pregnancy. By your extreme definition, they could do whatever they wanted to the baby until the 9th month, because it has no rights by your definition until the process is complete.”

I said no such thing or anything like that. If you are going to make such irresponsible accusations, I would appreciate cites to back it up.

My point is that this is not a black/white issue. We’ve thrashed this around a hundred times, Tex. There is NO point where you can say, today it’s a baby; yesterday it was not, because it is a PROCESS – a BECOMING, not an event.

In cases such as this one, you have to simply decide at which point you are going to assign rights to the fetus, realizing that it is to some degree arbitrary. I have no particular point where I think that distinction should be made, except to say it is NOT conception, so once again, your comment above is inaccurate, and you knew that when you wrote it. (Honesty. You get respect from others by being honest. We need honesty if we are going to work problems out.)

As of this writing, Roe v. Wade provides I believe a workable framework; it doesn’t give everybody what they want, but of course the problem is that both sides want everything, don’t they?

I say give it a rest. We have settled law on the matter; let’s move on to something more pressing, like, say, whether the Republic is going to survive. Something trivial like that.

I think that is an unfair argument Pfessor, something you are not known for. To take it to that extreme of preconception and use that for a basis of an argument is bunk and reeks of desperation.

I will set aside your emotions and the insults that go with them and get to the heart of the argument.

Process. At what point do you attribute the process is complete enough to warrant the potential to be worthy of consideration? 2 weeks ago a baby was born in the 4th month of pregnancy. By your extreme definition, they could do whatever they wanted to the baby until the 9th month, because it has no rights by your definition until the process is complete. Or does the change in location endow the potential with rights?

“I would like to introduce you to a new word. Potential. Potential has value. What is the difference of a baby inside, and outside the mother at 3 months, 6 months, 9 months? ”

Let’s carry that argument out a little, shall we? Firstly, there is a great deal of disagreement on calling a fetus a “baby,” (nice try) but for the sake of argument…

What is the difference of a 6 month fetus and a 3 month fetus? A three month and a one month? A one month and a one day? A one day and a one second? How about that one-second old “baby” and the sperm and egg one second before? They have “potential” too, all they have to do is get together, right? Each has half the DNA, so by your logic each is half a person, since one second later it is a “baby.”

Does that mean that the woman is committing murder by not getting pregnant each and every month? What about the poor guy, who in a weak moment actually masturbates and murders millions?

No, I don’t think your “potential” or your “baby” arguments hold up. It takes a lot of things to make a baby, including the passage of time and the incorporation of nutrients supplied by Mom, assembled by the instructions in Mom’s and Dad’s DNA.

I’ll introduce YOU to a new word: process. Pregnancy and the generation of a human is a PROCESS, not an EVENT – a process that starts with a little lovin’ and slowly generates another person.

I know the simple arguments have appeal, but some things cannot be reduced to first-grade logic. If it were that simple, there would be no controversy about abortion at all, would there?

James-
It’s going to take a multi-faceted approach to wean ourselves from oil. Cheap to moderately cheap oil has affected how we build, how we transport ourselves, etc. Across America, we have built a huge interconnected set of systems based on cheap oil- each system will take changing.
Here where stand alone power companies abound because of vast distances and small communities, people are doing tons of things to get off oil dependant electricity and heating systems.
This is a favorite one of mine

(Hydro power is not a panacea nor should it be considered in many instances. Oregon and northern California have many hydro projects which have directly damaged fisheries and peoples’ ability to make a living and feed themselves.)
We battle Southcentral, Achorage and the valley, all the time here. Half of the state’s population lives in that small area and can take advantage of efficiencies available in sheer numbers of customers to pay for transmission infrastructure etc. The general mindset is that any of the rest of us looking for state support to get off diesel power generation etc should just move and quit taking ‘their”money. ANC would not exist without the wealth in resources from rural Alaska which flows into it along with the dollars for supplies rural Alaska spends there to supply itself so the mindset is aggravting.
However the cold Climate Housing Research Center is working hard to come up with area pecific energy efficient homes,vet materials which can be made locally to cut huge freight costs to build and so on. They have built 2 rather extraordinary prototype homes in 2 different climates in recent years which point to addressing the oil-problem from a wholly different angle.
There won’t be a THE way to address all the issues and every idea which comes along won’t be good but there are tons of possibilities and avenues and JOBS possible . The oil and energy giants point to costs incurred as we try to shift as terrible burdens partly becasue they would have to shift their own way of doing things or might get cut out of a new loop. We already pay most of the costs they yap about somehwere else so …?

Thanks Simon. Of course the Democrats and conventional Republicans have elected some real prizes too. And again, none of those people were actually advocating murder.

Cynthia, your links regarding religious belief etc and the brain are interesting in another respect. Some of my ancestors were so attached to their shamanistic religion that they were among the last people of Europe to be Christianised, When missionaries came to preach the word, my distant cousins killed them.

Angle is the kind of politician favored by the Tea Party and other extremists

By all means Simon, lets have you stand by your own words. IF you cannot find them yourself posted above, take on the 10 items the Tea Party is founded on and tell us, one by one, if you are able, what is extreme about their philosophy.

I would like to introduce you to a new word. Potential. Potential has value. What is the difference of a baby inside, and outside the mother at 3 months, 6 months, 9 months?

Again, a bit of projection here. Your list reads like the game plan of Fox News, Rush, Hannity, Savage and Miller. They have taught you the straw man argument…taught it to you, but not well.

Now you are treading onto my territory, a place you have obviously never gone and are relying on your Liberal rhetoric to pretend to know something. Rush, Hannity, and Savage have never gone out of their way to destroy a persons, their friends, family, or career. Hannity being thee most fair guy on radio or TV, gave a Democratic congressmen 30min of air time the day before the election because Sean had misunderstood something he said to be a racist comment. The congressman spent less than 30 seconds on the topic and proceeded to campaign for the remainder of the 29min and Sean allowed it.

As for the belief you and your Liberal party is clean, I have 2 words that blow your ass out of the water. Sarah Palin. Look how Liberals attack and continue to attack this person and her family, relentlessly, with no mercy and no boundaries.

When your boy wild Bill was giving Monica the 7 bodily fluid test in the White House when he should have been honoring his marriage and doing the people’s business, you all couldn’t care less about a Presidents personal life. Cain has a few women step up and “claim” he did something, with no evidence, and you are all lathered up into a frenzy.. btw where are those women now? Where is all the proof we were going to see? Interesting huh?

I believe these comments were intended for me as well, even though it was included in a response to Ghost Rider. Perhaps Anonymous is as confused about who he is addressing as is his nemesis.

“233 confirmed police report. The most violent crimes we have laws for.”

Answered ad nauseum. Re-read if necessary.

“Financial backers from some of the most peaceful organizations we have on the planet such as.
North Korea,”

What “financing” did North Korea give to OWS, when it has no money to give? Yes, North Korea’s leaders applauded OWS’s efforts…so what? OWS does not consider Kim Jong Il’s economic system to be a good alternative to what we have.

“Communist Party of China,”

Better to have tube socks and cheap electronics from China than “financial backing”, I suppose. Anyway, again it is more cheerleading, uninvited cheerleading, than finances coming from China.

“Hezbollah,”

I searched for some information about such a “financial backing”, but came up empty, such a possibility was not even mentioned by the usual Right Wing screamer sites. Odd.

“Communist Party USA,”

Is this not a legitimate political movement within the laws of the US? You know, freedom of assembly and all of that?
In any case, again, no evidence of “financial backing” in any search. Sympathy, moral support, yes. That is not a problem, unless one is scared of the ideas and alternative points of view of one’s fellow Americans. But fear is the currency of the present Right Wing.

“Unions, Former ACORN workers,”

You are a victim of your media favorites’ propaganda machines. Millions of Americans know what ACORN was really all about, and it was not what notorious liar Brietbart told you, no matter how much you want to believe it. Millions more Americans have benefitted by the Union movement, and know what that is really all about as well.

“America Nazi Party,Black Panthers, Nation of Islam”

Again, no “financial backing” to be found. Support from crazies, certainly, something no political movement can avoid; certainly the Republican Presidential primaries are evidence that crazy people can be given a bit too much credence.

“Simon, I must have misunderstood. I haven’t time to go back and check so this is from memory. You cited Sharon Engle (SP) the Tea Party candidate as an example of one who threatened a life to counter the charge that OWS was violence-prone. I mentioned the other quotes to show that Engle was not acutually trying to incite a murder.”

Permit me to clarify, then.
My question was, what did Sharon Angle mean by “Second Amendment remedies”? Also, to whom and by what means did she indeed to deliver these “remedies”?
Sharon Angle was a candidate for the US Senate. Is this anyone’s idea of responsible discourse? Not over the top metaphors remember, but a specific reference to a decidedly misunderstood Constitutional amendment which deals exclusively with the subject of guns, and no other subject?

In a way, these questions are rhetorical, James. I understand there is no need to answer them; they can’t be answered any way but acknowledgement that Angle is the kind of politician favored by the Tea Party and other extremists, but fortunately not in this case by the majority of voters in Nevada.

Missed this paragraph, and it is too full of delightful straw men and misrepresentation to pass up.

“Kill the babies, they have no rights anyway.”

Babies indeed have rights. When they are babies. The “rights” of fertilized eggs are superseded by those of the woman.

“Rape, defile, abuse, murder, because the ends justify if the cause is ours.”

This reads like Bush/Cheney administration foreign policy to me. If you are referring to Occupy, then this is an exceptionally stupid statement, unworthy of further notice, for reasons copiously outlined in other posts.

“If they oppose us, and they run for office, show no mercy. Destroy their career, their friends and their families, and continue to do so even when they are no longer relevant, …”

Again, a bit of projection here. Your list reads like the game plan of Fox News, Rush, Hannity, Savage and Miller. They have taught you the straw man argument…taught it to you, but not well.

“Is it any wonder why the Tea Party is so passionate? To borrow your analogy Simon, Hitler has nothing on you guys.”

The Tea Party’s manifesto has nothing to do with those items you listed in this post. Good thing, too, because the hypocrisy of decrying the “showing of no mercy” would be brought into clear focus by all of those posters of Obama as Hitler (speaking of) and with bones through his nose. But really, such signs are ultimately harmless; unlike the firearms irresponsibly brandished by others in the “movement”.

Simon, I must have misunderstood. I haven’t time to go back and check so this is from memory. You cited Sharon Engle (SP) the Tea Party candidate as an example of one who threatened a life to counter the charge that OWS was violence-prone. I mentioned the other quotes to show that Engle was not acutually trying to incite a murder.

My point was that the Tea Party was almost totally non-violent while the OWS organization had a criminal element. I don’t believe they fostered violence and theft. I believe they didn’t police themselves very well.

No disrespect to you, but I’ve lost interest in some of the older discussion. I am still plugging away at my family tree. I have been following the branches of male ancestors’ wives, and my mothers’. So far, the majority is Scandinavian, also Welsh and German with possibly a Jewish connection.. My mother’s ancestors may have been Vikings operating in the Outer Hebrides. She would have been mortified.

It was the contention that OWS was violent in its organization, and its intention was to foment violence.

233 confirmed police report. The most violent crimes we have laws for. Financial backers from some of the most peaceful organizations we have on the planet such as. North Korea, Communist Party of China, Hezbollah, Communist Party USA, Unions, Former ACORN workers, America Nazi Party,Black Panthers, Nation of Islam. Think that about covers that.

Ghost Rider wrote the following:
“My response it to your posts alone. I do not confuse you with anyone else.”

Is this directed at me? If so, you are attributing statements to me I did not make. I may have quoted the statements in question, but the quotes were in quotation marks, were used to make clear what the other side was saying, and were followed by my rebuttals.
So, if you’re attributing Anonymous’ comments to me you are indeed confusing me with him.

“That’s three Simon, 220 to go.”

You are addressing me directly here. If you are not confusing me with Anonymous, who is the one consumed with peripheral crimes he associates with OWS, then what are you talking about? I haven’t offered 223 of anything.

Did the reporter turn out to be Jared Loughner?
I have stated Mr. Loughner was insane, my point was that those who support literal, not metaphorical guns at political rallies have much to answer for, particularly if we look back at this country’s history of political violence.

“Sarah Palin mentioned reloading, and Mechelle Bachmann said she wanted her constitutents ‘armed and dangerous.'”

And some have obviously taken this literally, thus they show up at political rallies armed, and certainly the danger is implied.

“Years ago, Alec Baldwin said on the Tonight Show, ‘I think that people should go to Rep Harry Hyde’s home and stone him.'”

Alec Baldwin is an actor, not a political official or candidate. I don’t pay any attention to blowhards like Ted Nugent, either. They bloviate but they have no real effect on policy.

“An OWS sign read ‘This Revolution will not be privatized.’”

You will have to help me; I don’t find anything violent in that sign’s language.

“Don’t get the vapors, Simon. Those statements were hyberboly. Sharon Engles’ suggestion of ‘First Amendment remedies’ was made last year, I think. So far, only Gabrille Giffords was shot and many died, but the Daily Kos didn’t cause the tragedy. A sick mind did.”

You are missing the point. Sharon Angles was a candidate for the US Senate. What are the “Second Amendment remedies”? If this is a metaphor, what does it really refer to?

“Anon has provided a ton of ‘ground truth.’ That so far, the Tea Parties have been more effective than OWS at producing a coherent message and turning it into political power is fact.”

Everyone has written a lot and it can be hard to keep up with comments which are responses to one’s own. I acknowledged that the Tea Party had some success, although its victories may prove pyrrhic to its supporters. That was not the issue being debated. It was the contention that OWS was violent in its organization, and its intention was to foment violence. I have explained the likelihood of criminal activity in such a large movement, you may find it and read it if you like.

I thought I was clear. Perhaps not, that or your powers of comprehension are at a low ebb.

I will not get into an idiotic Monty Python ” yes it is, no it isn’t” routine with you. I’ve much better things to do than carry on an infantile discussion over who wagged what on the courthouse steps.

The original subject, if you will remember, was one of ego. You wished to change that and I wouldn’t let you.

Sorry old boy, but I suffer intellectual indigence badly. I told you that in so many words, but then it went directly over your head.

Ghost-rider. I will do my level best to use more one syllable words I can so you can better follow the conversation. that was 233 police reports filed.

The rest of your blather is just gibberish. You cannot, will not, engage in debate or conversation. You make excuses just fine though so I will give you that. Insults though need some work. There are several on here that can help you out in that department.

Now if places like the LA Times and others I listed are not credible references then I cannot help you. Seems to me to be a flimsy attempt to retreat with whats left with one’s pride, but whatever excuse lets you withdraw with whatever dignity you have left. Did I look up the police reports myself? Of course not. This is a blog and I feel no motivation to fact check these news organizations so I can prove something to a second rate hack.

We have already “started someplace.” Ethenol, admittedly not the most efficient bio fuel, wind power, switch grass, and even garbage provide fuel. Soy diesel also saves carbon and lowers our oil bill. Windy Iowa and the plains are great for wind farms.I have forgotten the exact number, but bio fuels save us about a hundred million barrels of oil a year. Atomic fuel also helps.

Oil is still cheaper and easier to refine. The world economy cannot survive without oil. How would you accelorate the transition without damaging our economy?

So you voted for Bush in 2000, and you have cheap shotted the shrub too? We have something in common.

Iraq is another whole can of worms that I feel you are ill equipped to tackle so I will let your usual cheap shot slide. Your kids and loved ones maybe disposable to you. Mine are not. I would rather be over prepared than seeing one of our major cities uninhabitable for 200 years.

Mine sees the potential of a threat before it happens, and decides to take measures to stop it before innocents die. Mine is the superior way. Mine is the compassionate way.

Yes, one day Iraq may have weapons of mass destruction and may “fedex” them to us so we took them out before they could. Thank God for those with the foresight to stop it before it could happen! It’s just too bad those US soldiers who were killed or wounded and of course the Iraqis too. But we had to do it.

poolman, I never said it was our greatest threat, but then if you didn’t make false assumptions you would never be able to post your flawed ideology.

It is a threat. Nuclear proliferation in 3rd world countries makes in a greater threat. You kind is always the react after it happens. Mine sees the potential of a threat before it happens, and decides to take measures to stop it before innocents die. Mine is the superior way. Mine is the compassionate way.

We cannot put starting somewhere in our gas tanks. We cannot put algae farms to use that don’t currently exist. When they exist, and they are viable..I am all for it. Until then, its cold outside, and I need heat now. I cannot provide for my family on a wish and a prayer. Good intentions do not digest well.

You think terrorism is our greatest threat? You have not only been drinking, but also mixing and passing out the koolaid.

How many deaths do you think we can attribute to terrorism in our “unsecured” land, say annually?

Are you even aware that there are over 34,000 suicides and over 32,000 automobile related deaths in this country every year? Or that medical malpractice kills around 120,000 annually? Or that wild animals kill more people annually than terrorism does? Or that falling down stairs is much more common and attributes to thousands per year?

Hell, even vending machines rival terrorists in how many folks are killed and maimed every year. All these things are much more lethal than the rare terrorist act and certainly don’t get near the media coverage or tax dollars thrown at it.

Cynthia, I wish I had more time because you NOP, and Poolman etc are fun to argue with. I agree we need bio fuel and lots of it. It would be great if we didn’t have to extract oil or coal. I hope that day comes, but it isn’t here yet.

We need the Keystone Pipe line but probably won’t get it. The oil will likely go to China. Canadian oil, no matter the quality is more dependable than oil from countries which don’t like us. More of the money we spend in Canada will return to the US than money spent in the Middle East.

An oil pipe line has been under our farm for decades. The flood broke a natural gas pipe line near our home and a road was closed because of fumes, but valves stopped the flow quickly. I believe the same happened when high water broke an oil pipe line in Montana during our flood.

The new route would not cross the Sand Hills and Ogalala Aquifer as originally planned. It is as safe as any other pipe line in the area. We won’t have it because Obama doesn’t want to offend the labor unions who want it and environmentalists who don’t want it.That is why he delayed a decision until after the election..

Yes, NOP, Herman Cain is smart. I know because he lived and worked in Omaha for a long time. He earned a MA in computer science while working full-time as a ballistics analyst for the Navy Department. He made Burger King profitable so Pillsbury sent him to save Godfather’s Pizza. Godfathers soon made money again. He and his crew closed restaurants and changed management practices. Later, he and some others bought the company.

He sang “Imagine There’s no Pizza” to the tune of John Lennon’s “Imagine”at the Omaha Press Club.

Cain was also Chairman of the Omaha branch of the Kansas City Federal Reserve Bank.

He nearly died of stage 4 colon cancer in 2006.

Herman Cain is a businessman, not a politician. I’m not even sure he wasn’t like “The Candidate.” Maybe he was trying to promote a talk show or something and his surge was a surprise. He may have a political tin ear and he may be ignorant of what happens in foreign places, but he is smart.

The people coming across the border are looking for work and a better life for their families not to destroy the US

You do realize that most terrorists come from outside the country, and by default must come across our borders to gain entry?

If a terriorist or worker wants to come here they will come by boat or by a visa or the Canadian border, private plane or what ever. It is foolish to think otherwise.

I have a link somewhere and I will find it but it blows this so far out of the water I think we are finally starting to see with proof you give your opinions not based on facts, but rather a unsubstantiated gut feeling. There was a study done published in the last 6 months that showed the vast majority were coming up from South America and through Mexico because of the lax security and ease of travel.

ALL, not just the Mexican border, but all borders need to be secure. I know this might be news to you, but we are a nation of laws. Laws need to be upheld. If you enter the country by other than legal means, you need to be made gone. Since the problem has been neglected by the touchy-feel types for so long, we need to first secure, then evaluate what to do with the millions that are already here.

Not that the original point of your comment was lost on me, or the glaring contradiction.

Hard to protect against terrorist attacks, but is opposed to securing our borders.
The people coming across the border are looking for work and a better life for their families not to destroy the US. If we made it easier for them to get work permits, fined employers for hiring illegals and took away “anchor baby” we would accomplish a lot more and cheaper than that wall will do. Not to mention the harm being done to the wildlife on the border but hey that’s not important.

If a terriorist or worker wants to come here they will come by boat or by a visa or the Canadian border, private plane or what ever. It is foolish to think otherwise.

James, you lost me when you said, Herman Cain was smart. I think nein, nein, nein. Anyhow I can hardly wait to see how the Iowa caucus goes, and after that I look forward to more Republican debates, so far they are almost as bizare as my housewives shows.

Would this not be a better solution to oil, while we have the time to come up with solutions? While it may not provide all our engery needs it would certainly reduce the need for so much oil. And gives us a more healthy environment to boot.

http://www.hemp-guide.com/benefits-of-hemp.html
Since hemp is easy to grow through a process that in fact strengthens surrounding soil, the plant is a clear friend of the planet. Many also believe the hemp plant could produce a biomass for fuel that would burn cleaner than other well-known ethanol selections.

http://www.hemphasis.net/Fuel-Energy/fuel.htm
Hemp vs. Fossil Fuels
Pyrolysis facilities can use the same technology used now to process fossil fuel oil and coal. Petroleum coal and oil conversion is more efficient in terms of fuel-to-feed ratio, but there are many advantages to conversion by pyrolysis.
1) Biomass has a heating value of 5000-8000 BTU/lb, with virtually no ash or sulfur emissions.
2) Ethanol, methanol, methane gas, and gasoline can be derived from biomass at a fraction of the cost of the current cost of oil, coal, or nuclear energy, especially when environmental costs are factored in. Each acre of hemp could yield about 1000 gallons of methanol.
3) When an energy crop is growing, it takes carbon dioxide (CO2) from the air, and releases an equal amount when it is burned, creating a balanced system, unlike petroleum fuels, which only release CO2. When an energy crop like hemp is grown on a massive scale, it will initially lower the CO2 in the air, and then stabilize it at a level lower than before the planting of the energy crop.
4) Use of biomass would end acid rain, end sulfer-based smog, and reverse the greenhouse effect.

I understand the…whats in it for me…attitude. It is after all the Liberal way. Nothing in it for me other than a more stable economy. Fuel prices effect everything. Anything we can do to add additional sources of oil is a smart move.

Hard to protect against terrorist attacks, but is opposed to securing our borders. For blocking new refineries, but against it being piped to where refineries already exist. Thinks it is more expensive to go 1000 miles than it is to go all the way to the Middle East. Has the attitude that importing less oil is the same as importing more oil and nothing is to be gained by less dependance. Giving money to a non ally is better than an ally. As long as the oil goes over someone elses homes, farms, land, roads, rivers, water, its ok. When it is ours, we suddenly become environmentalists. We cannot drill off our own shores, we cannot take it from our neighbors. China will buy the oil, and we will in turn buy it 3rd party at an even high rate. Ya this makes sense.

I must apologize that my expectations of a potential president is a tad bit too high.

The cost to refine tar sand oil is costly. To run a pipe line 1000 miles to me is taking the long road. The homes, farms, land, roads, rivers, water that will be disrupted or polluted must be considered. A break in this line could be difficult to find. And to protect it from a terrorist attack would be even more difficult. I can not believe the oil would be any cheaper than oil from the Middle East. We would still need to import oil so we would not be independent of the Middle East. To me it makes as much sense as building a wall on the Mexican border.

BP pumped our GoM oil and shipped it overseas. There is way more politic and control in this than meets the citizen’s eye. Part of the entire pipeline/infrastructure projects proposed are to support our new colonial police state status. This is a divide of the nation north to south since the route goes to entirely to Texas. I don’t trust those at the helm.

NOP. Douglas Schoen of the Wall Street Journal (October 18) wrote the majority of demonstrators were employed, and they had supported Obama in 2008. 48% said they wouldn’t vote for Obama next time, and 25% say they would stay home. 32% identified as Democrats, and 33% say they had no party. 98% supported civil disobedience and 31% would approve of violence. Pollsters must have been walking around the tents.

Yes, polls can be unreliable, but they are the best we have. They are like photos which fade quickly. People liked Herman Cain because he was not Romney, he was smart and said the right things. Then, came the women and his ignorance of things he should have known about world affairs.The polls showed he was poplar and they showed he was not.

I’ll tell Rick Perry if I see him, Cynthia.

Yes, the oil comes from Canadian tar sand, and it will also come from tar sand if we don’t buy the oil. It is wrong to extract such oil, but we must. We are like the plains farmers during the drought and depression of 1894. They ate their seed to survive.

Iran has threatened to block the Strait of Hermuz if we tighten oil sanctions. We have told them in effect “close the Strait over our dead bodies.” I’d rather that Canadian oil goes here to lower our gas prices and make the gas lines a little shorter if we have a repeat of the oil embargo after the seventies Six Day War.

Canada oil is from tar sands. Aside from the environmental toll, the processing takes 4 times as much energy. Middle East oil is purer crude and requires much less refining.

But the point was Perry’s ignorance, and one you conveniently ignored. I think we have bailed him out of his idiocy too many times. Just the fact that he is still considered a potential leader is a scary thought. Rather Palinesk, imo.

And we wonder why we are where we are today. The masses, just love their gottcha moments. They will die a long slow death just to get one more gottcha in, rather than focus on what is important. I call them the Jerry Springer acolytes.

Obama, among his long long long list of failures, admitted his shovel read jobs, were not so shovel ready. Here we have an opportunity for some true shovel ready jobs, and Obama is politicizing it. While he is on a $4,000,000 vacation in Hawaii, While Nancy Pelosi is in a $10,000 a night vacation suite, the little people they represent would dearly love these true shovel ready jobs from this pipe line. The Middle East is ever unstable, and little things cause oil prices to raise all the time. What logical reason would we continue to deal with an unstable situation overseas with a people who for the most part want us wiped from the face of the earth? We could be buying from an friend to the north that would provide much more stability that the average American consumer would greatly appreciate.

We should not disqualify good ideas based on hurdles. We should take good ideas when they come our way and put our efforts into overcoming the challenges. If anyone her can give me a logical argument why oil from the Middle East is preferable to oil from Canada, I am all ears.

Ghost-rider. I engaged you, I met with the information you requested, and you refused to engage. You can be the silver tongued devil all you like, but at the end of the day you either do, or you don’t do. Take me on, engage my ideas or don’t. Your personal observations of me may make you feel good about yourself, but ultimately accomplish nothing and do nothing but harm the progress of the conversation. Choice is yours.

Oh James, we are miles apart, apples and oranges in the immortal words of Herman Cain. Wasn’t he the Republican front runner for awhile, whatever happened, I guess polls aren’t always reliable. How the devil does one poll people living in a tent?

People are like Canadian Geese. Neither wants to exert themselves to change unless they have to. Canadian Geese only migrate if the food runs out or the water is gone. People change when circumstances force them to.

You and NOP know history is filled with defining events which forced people to change. The Black Death and Alaric the Goth’s sack of Rome were just two. The fall of the Soviet Union is another. Many of the European welfare states have reached the end of the road, and they are struggling to impose spending cuts on people who are losing benefits and jobs.Germans, Finns, and others with strong work ethics and more fiscally sound governments resent having to help countries like Greece and Italy. The EU could disintegrate.

We are on a similar path. A lower birth rate has imposed a higher load on workers who have to support pensioners, poor people and others benefiting from our governmental largess. Retiring baby boomers are costing us more money each year. Eventually, our interest and other costs will crowd out other needed expenditures. We will be like the proverbal family with maxed out credit cards.
Our choices will be limited. Run away inflation or renouncing our debt might be all we have.

If we are smart, we will reduce spending and obligations while we still can. It will hurt people and maybe our economy for a while. I think the normal human impulse is to do little and hope for the best. That is why I think little will change until we face an emergency like Europe’s. .

Alaskapi, I only think both movements might have a deleterious effect on the two major parties. If the next election gives Republicans control of Congress and or the Presidency, and if Tea Party candidates play an important role they will have the power to impose their agenda on the US. That agenda includes reducing regulations which hurt businesses, and reducing spending.

If their scheme is associated with better times, we will have created a new reality without extreme turmoil. It will be rather like the change to Reaganism. The Republicans will benefit and the Democrats will be weaker.

Or, conservatives will over reach, too many people will suffer, and Republicans will return to where they were after Goldwater lost.

An election retaining the status quo will help the Democrats no matter what they do if the normal business cycle improves the economy. People will want to believe everything is all right and the Casandra Tea Partyers were merely naysayers. When the economy sickens, the Tea Party will return.

A poll of OWS showed only 40% planned to vote Democratic, so I agree the movement is “in real opposition the the Democratic Party itself.” However, labor unions, natural allies of Democrats want to usurp the movement and convert into a more friendly force.

Democrats, including Obama praised OWS and some offered them aid and comfort. Los Angeles, for example faces budget cut backs because of costs associated with OWS. Unfortunately for the administration, they so publicaly spoke well of OWS that angry constituents are muttering about recalls.

I believe OWS may hurt Democrats not by infiltrating the party but through voters’ associating Democratic praise with the movement. Republicans would make campaign ads comparing liberal Democrats and OWS’ s more extreme statements.

I agree with alaskapi, also, we Democrats are keeping OWS at arms length. I know that I agree with them on certain issues, but I have never been a single issue voter, therefore I never defend them, that is not for our party to do. OWS is a protest group, they are most effective making us all uncomfortable, that gets us thinking in terms of what can improve and we apply pressure on government and, in this case, banks, industries, etc world-wide. I remain open minded, in fact I am quite curious where all these protests are leading. Life is interesting!

James-
I disagree about the effects of either the TP or OWS on the 2 major parties. The TP chose to stage within the Republican Party. OWS, at present, refuses to stage within any party. There is a general view that they more closely mirror Democratic Party ideals but the core group disagrees.
Given the D framing of policy in centrist terms of the last 20 years at least I think the OWS is in real opposition to the D party itself.
The impulse to declare our moment in history as the be-all and end-all in national and/or human history is normal, predictable, and fully human. It is also full of hooey.
The assumption that we have to crash and suffer terribly to get on THE path again assumes a THE path existed which once and for all works for all of us.
The desire to throw out everything and start over assumes similar shaky things.
Parties reinvent themselves regularly for good or bad. We can mourn the loss of good sense and embrace needed change (or vice versa) but elevating it all beyond adjustments to method of conducting public business ? I don’t see where that has ever really worked.

One of the things I said in at the Bachmann affair yesterday was an answer to the question “what do you think we can do to change our course” I replied we can do nothing. Little will change if a Republican takes over because we will muddle through as we have.

The business cycle will improve the economy, and unemployment will fall, though maybe not to original levels. We still have the strongest economy and military in the world. Like a vacume, our economy will still attract other countries’ money because ours is so much safer by comparison. The EU, for example, is hanging by a thread. China, our savior, has serious potential problems.

We, are like a drug addict. We can’t reduce spending to keep us solvent, because too many of us are dependent on government help. Should we stop or slow the flow of money, millions of people will suffer. The economy would crash again. We are not immune to insurrection.

I believe nothing will really change until we dive into a Depression-like crisis. It is what jolted us into a welfare state because our leaders and citizens saw no other choice. Eventually, our debt will be unsustainable and on that day, our crash will be worse than anything we have experienced in our lives. That is when we will change the system.

I told my wife how the entire restaurant became quiet as everyone listened to me. I also told her how I defended TARP , Bush’s and Obama’s role in it. She replied “YOU SAID WHAT !!!?”

Alasaskapi, I have read similar manifestos but I don’t know if all OWS people agree with them.

Some of the comments were good.

“Start by reading the Constitution and Federalist papers. Its not the economic system stupid it is the government. The answer is not about scraping Capitalism, it is about keeping Congress under control by the people. ….And do not give me that crap excuse for doing nothing the the Sates will not respond or the politicians will not respond. Demand that they respond–tolerate nothing less!. You all should be occupying Washington and your state governments not Wall Street!”

That was an unwitting statement of the average Tea Partier.

Assuming that statement reflects the movement, how would they achieve their goals? No wonder they haven’t gotten much traction. Theirs is the definition of Hell.All they lack is little red books by Chairman Mao.

I know what happened in Alaska, and you are right. They should have supported the original candidates or found better ones. The Tea Parties also helped elect Scott Brown who took the seat Teddy Kennedy held for years. Now, since he is impure, some want to run another candidate against him. If they do, they will probably let Elizabeth Warren take office back for the Democrats.

I wrote in the beginning that the Tea Party was a powerful movement and though it was a force for good, because it stopped Obama’s juggernaut, it was also a danger to both political parties. I agree with NOP with a qualification. The Tea Party COULD be the death of the Republican Party just as OWS with that manifesto MIGHT destroy the Democrats.

James- here there were no other TP candidates who might win.
Miller winning the primary was a shock but the Republican party apparatus accepted it and supported him as the chosen party candidate.
It was everyday people who freaked out over him.
Enough so that our unknown-to-most Democratic nominee was rising so fast in the polls it looked like we might overturn a 40 year R hold on Senate seats and have 2 Dems in.
The TP Express ticked off a lot of people with their throwing money around here and the more that came out about Miller’s fruitloop ideas and personal problems with any kind of truth, the more people freaked. When LM decided to run as a write in it was all over for the local TP.
The Republican party here was stuck in a lot of ways throughout the whole mess.

As a matter of fact, I’m not sure if even OWS as a group has yet decided its philosophical direction, so I couldn’t really criticize if I wanted to. I prefer a coherent message because it usually works.
——————
James-
Go see what they have to say for themselves. They have made statements. Whether one agrees with them or not, they have been and still are working out what they think and where they stand.

I am tired of the blatant double standards and dishonesty of the Liberals that inhabit this place.They hate conservatives. So you list for them conservative values and ask them to explain what they hate. In response you get nothing on that topic, if anything at all. They say they hate the Tea Party. So you list out for them the ideals of the Tea Party and you ask them to explain what they hate, and again you get nothing.

Then we get the whining and crying that those mean old Republicans won’t work together with us to change the world. Please, PLEASE Republicans, don’t do as WE DO…do as WE SAY. Old and tired.

Alaska and several other states demonstrated a Tea Party weakness. They favored ideologically pure but bad candidates over others who might win. I think Republicans might have won the Senate if the Tea Party had been more choosy about the candidates they supported. In some areas, their success became their undoing.

I’d really rather not resurrect anything. To tell the truth, I’m at a loss as to just exactly why I rattled his chain in the first place. Perhaps it was the condescending attitude or the patronizing way he answered a post.

I’ve a weakness for poking sleeping dogs, skunks and egocentric twits that spans almost three quarters of a century.

I fear that, like Col. Kilgore, I just love the smell of Napalm in the morning!

Oh well.
You obviously missed the various times I’ve disagreed with plenty of the liberal commenters here, maybe because it doesn’t turn into flap-city .
Doesn’t matter.
And doesn’t matter you don’t feel comfortable checking out what I asked. Was worth the question to see if you understood.

The TP totally flopped here in presumably TP country. Joe Miller scared people so badly they made history with writing in Lisa Murkowski for Senator. Didn’t vote for her, don’t want her but still find it interesting how badly Joe upset folks here with his notions of what is or isn’t constitutional and wild allegations and plans about various things. We generally set some records for silly secessionists, militia goofs, the quiverfulls, and all- his constituency. Set a new record in running like h*** the other way at the ballot box- even after the huge $$s the TP Express poured into the race on his behalf and SP’s endorsement.

Cynthia, no I don’t approve of OWS methods and some of its message, as I also disapprove of some of the Tea Party’s views. However, that has nothing to do with my argument. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure if even OWS as a group has yet decided its philosophical direction, so I couldn’t really criticize if I wanted to. I prefer a coherent message because it usually works.

I am only focusing on their effectiveness as revolutionary movements. It may change, but as of now the OWS has failed.

We know a Russian protest movement is growing over a dishonest election and Putin’s intention to resume the presidency. A huge demonstration gathered in the snow this weekend, and as with the Tea Party and maybe OWS authorities under estimated while demonstrators over estimated their numbers.

It appears to me to be a hybrid Tea Party/OWS movement. Their goals are still evolving, but they are better defined than the OWS movement’s. They also have notable and qualified leaders.

Putin has become more conciliatory, because he knows he must avoid further inflamation. He is comparing them to OWS as ineffective protesters with no real goals or leaders. That and the OWS comment in Iowa further supports my claim that more people than I regard OWS as ineffective so far.

If some of you listened to Assogattis by Sofia Jannok, you would mellow out. At least it works for me.

I made a simple point. That being the TP model was superior in every way to the OWS movement. Non violent, organized, a clear and concise message and purpose. Their execution was incredible, and their results tremendous. Simon could not admit to any of that. He wanted proof, and evidence, and we strayed into various tangents, and eventually he wore me down and I tired of it all.

Bottom line, the effort of the TP people was historic. Their ability to achieve change without violence while achieving that level of success has never before been accomplished by any other group I am aware of. Again all of these things should have been self evident, to Simon they were not.

The fact you never have a bone to pick with a Liberal has me not trusting your motives or your intent so I apologize for not walking directly down the path you laid before me. This is as close to responding to that line of questions as I care to get.

I’m not trying to resurrect that conversation anon. I asked whether you see the Straw Man aspect of your responses in that conversation after asking if you understand what that fallacy is.
Simply that. Nothing more or less.

You didn’t list anything at 8:55 except a lot of irrelevant snark and assertions of having brought relevant facts to the arguments with 2 commenters.
If you really want to see -go back and look at the whole of Simon’s remarks and think about whether you really did bring facts relevant to what Simon said .
You brought facts and figures but they were not relevant to the specific argument and quite frankly look like a classic Straw Man argument.
Go look at the expostion at the Fallacy Files too -if you really want to see it.
I’m not going to argue OWS/TP with you. This is about style and method of argument. Period.

anon- I am still trying to be fair.
It is a legitimate question.
Do you know what the Straw Man argument is- really truly?
It’s a very common way for people to derail in argumentation, sometimes purposefully, sometimes without understanding one is doing it.http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html
Some orators are so skilled at fallacious arguments that it takes a piece by piece look at their argument to spot many of the fallacies.
Talking heads are usually less skilled and we mere everyday folks are usually pretty obvious in our flops.
I’m seeing Straw Man in your latest set of arguments.
Do you see it?

Wow, personal attacks from a Liberal MC? Whoever would have thought a Liberal would do that? Why me. Thanks again for taking time out of your busy day to help me prove what kind of people 99.9% of Liberals are.

And the condescending, sexist nature continues. Good god, I feel sorry for the women in your life. “Woman, git in that kitchen and make King Noah a sammich!” “Don’t worry your pretty little head about a thing, I shall do all of the thinking from now on.”

You are so right, Noah. Shame on me for even thinking that I was on your level. Level of assholery and lying, that is. I mean, after all, it was you who stated that you would be leaving this site earlier this year, after “threats” were made to you, against you, in your honor, whatever. All of those big, bad liberals rounded up a posse, did they? Yet here you are, still crying foul that no one thinks you are all great and powerful.

Please carry on, I do rather enjoy your flailing about. How do those personal attacks taste coming out of your mouth?

Per Ghosts request, (sorry did you miss those) at 12:29, 12:36 and 12:46 I posted news links to back up my assertions. What straw man do you perceive there? None you say? Then whatever was your point little miss?

At 2:51 I posted a response to Puppets statement. I listed out FACTS, (those are those pesky little things you normally don’t bother with) concerning that topic. What straw man do you perceive there? None you say? Then whatever was your point little miss?

Please, whenever you have the time to get off your broom and join us humble mortals, enlighten me and show me the error of my ways and where I strayed from your holier than thou path.

Quick! Everybody respond to the rants of Anonymous within 10 minutes. Why go out of your way to make an asshole and a liar of yourself? Ghost was harping on me at 10:43, 10:45, and 12:08 to post to his request. I did so and he vanished. Oh I get it. You are not able to form coherent and meaningful thoughts of your own…so you just spout of rantings like a middle school bully. Noted.

“A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

if you search/google for The Fallacy Files you can find expositions of each common logical fallacy or “mistake in reasoning” .

Quick! Everybody respond to the rants of Anonymous within 10 minutes! Otherwise you are nothing but a flimsy Liberal, only capable of towing the party line, nothing more.

We can’t all post multiple times in a 30 minute period. Some of us have jobs and families that we enjoy spending face to face time with. Or we may even choose to ignore those who decide to consistently belittle the contributions of anyone who does not particularly agree with them and support their ideals.

James – I realize you and others do not approve or agree with OWS so of course you will find the faults. IMO you prefer a nice clear, coherent message and organized in a manner that will fit into your way of thinking. I understand this but this is a NOT a “CONSERVATIVE” protest.

This is bigger than the TP rallies’ it is a sit-in/occupation and more of a grassroots movement. IMO the TP (not the orginal TP people) was organized, the messaging and the money was controlled by those in power who used the people for their own agenda. The TP protest may have been “controlled” protest but the people were never in control of it

IMO The biggest crime of that Tea Party movement is in who they elected and the way these politicians plan to change this country.

I do not believe anyone condones the “crimes” being commited at OWS we do realize if you put enough people together in this type of situation unfortunate things will happen. But it is not in the control or message of the OWS. I am able to look past the negatives and see the changes they are trying to accomplish. Change can be messy. And no, I don’t expect you to agree with me.

It is a shame Liberals are so flimsy in their beliefs and abandon them at the first glimmer of trouble. Ghost-rider, so bold, fled without so much as a whimper. poolman, master of the hit and run, and the cheap shot. Puppet, so strong in conviction, then fades. Maybe common sense is a most potent weapon after all.

According to the Associated Press, OWS people are coming to Iowa from as far away as both coasts to disrupt Iowa’s caucuses. One person said they need to do this because so far, “their message hasn’t gotten through…” They know, even if some of their defenders don’t .

I like your comments, Cynthia. I’ve read the article before, and it does make one think. Who are we really? How much of us is our reaction to our environment, and how much are genetic predispositions given by Great Uncle Charley or Maude a thousand years ago? Why do farmers of different ethic groups tend to farm differently. Do most of us inherit or dispose of our family’s political or religious beliefs? Do genes play a role?

Liberalism and conservatism are political and social constructs. They are not inherently “liberal” or “conservative” if the article about personality types is true. A “conservative” may cling to a “liberal” mind set in the face of changing information or vise versa.

I would like to see the results of a comparison of business and non-business people.

My mind had to be nimble today. I attended a Michelle Bachmann campaign meeting near our home. It was a lark, but things went down hill when a neighbor said the reporter should be talking to me not him. I refused. Later an advance lady visited with all of us. She stopped when she reached my table. I must have been talking louder than expected because I suddenly realized the restaurant was quiet and all eyes were on me. Some faces looked angry, so I resorted to less controversial things I thought we all believed.

Then, they herded us behind Michelle as props for a campaign ad. Michelle must know it is falling apart. You’d never know it by her up beat manner I respect her for that.Its hard to be Michelle right now. She asked if I was going to vote for her, and I didn’t think it was the time to disrespect her, so I replied. “You certainly don’t look 55”, and that was the truth. She beamed and thanked me, as she went to the next person.

People were still speaking to me at the end, and I met a cousin I didn’t know I had, but it could have been nasty as has happened before. My real life reputation is not much different than it is here.

Sarah Palin mentioned reloading, and Mechelle Bachmann said she wanted her constitutents “armed and dangerous.”

Years ago, Alec Baldwin said on the Tonight Show, “I think that people should go to Rep Harry Hyde’s home and stone him.”

An OWS sign read “This Revolution will not be privatized.”

Don’t get the vapors, Simon. Those statements were hyberboly. Sharon Engles’ suggestion of “First Amendment remedies” was made last year, I think. So far, only Gabrille Giffords was shot and many died, but the Daily Kos didn’t cause the tragedy. A sick mind did.

I don’t like statements like those, but they are as old as politics. They usually don’t incite someone to kill.

Anon has provided a ton of “ground truth.” That so far, the Tea Parties have been more effective than OWS at producing a coherent message and turning it into political power is fact.

This isn’t over. The ultimate outcome is unknown. The possible harm or benefit to the two political parties and perhaps the US, is ripe for discussion

What has this to do with the subjects we were discussing?
The answer: nothing.
But better to throw in yet another straw man in hopes of confusing the issue. Apparently you are accustomed to dealing with people who are easily confused. I do not have that characteristic.
Now, tell me. Who was to be the target of Sharon Angle’s, remember a candidate for the US Congress (thankfully defeated, by what otherwise would have been an easily beatable opponent, had a sensible candidate made the cut), not some nut on a street corner, “First Amendment remedies”? And who was appointed to apply these “remedies”?
You, perhaps?

IMO we are all individuals who are a product of our genes, up bringing, environment, experiences, education etc.; one size DOES NOT fit all. But as the human race evolved there was a need or a place for all types of thinking, personalities and traits (in moderation) in order for it to survive. It is not a matter of which is “right” or which is “wrong” it is just the way nature “programed” individuals for success of the race. We need to find a way to understand and accept our differences.

….found that a specific region of the brain’s cortex is more sensitive in people who consider themselves liberals than in self-declared conservatives.
The brain region in question helps people shift gears when their usual response would be inappropriate, supporting the notion that liberals are more flexible in their thinking….

The work, to be reported today in the journal Nature Neuroscience, grew out of decades of previous research suggesting that political orientation is linked to certain personality traits or styles of thinking. A review of that research published in 2003 found that conservatives tend to be more rigid and closed-minded, less tolerant of ambiguity and less open to new experiences. Some of the traits associated with conservatives in that review were decidedly unflattering, including fear, aggression and tolerance of inequality.…..

….Linda Skitka, a professor of psychology at the University of Illinois at Chicago, said it’s possible the liberals in the recent study appeared more flexible than the conservatives because the population was skewed.

“We’re more likely to find extreme conservatives in the U.S. than extreme liberals,” she said……

In what way Puppet? I will list again the Tea Party mission statement, as they had the foresight to have a clear concise message. What of these things listed do you take issue with and deem a detriment to the Republican party?

1. Eliminate Excessive Taxes
2. Eliminate the National Debt
3. Eliminate Deficit Spending
4. Protect Free Markets
5. Abide by the Constitution of the United States
6. Promote Civic Responsibility
7. Reduce the Overall Size of Government
8. Believe in the People
9. Avoid the Pitfalls of Politics
10. Maintain Local Independence

The only difference, other than their philosophies, that I note between the Tea Party and OWS is one of them controls one of America’s major political parties. And I might note, to their, that political party’s detriment.

They have received $500,000 in donations, they put this in the bank (don’t they think banks are evil?). They are planning to incorporate so the donations can be tax deductible (isn’t that capitalism, which their against?).

The Tea Party is made up of Americans who think the government is too big, they are spending too much money and our taxes are too high.

Occupy Wall Street is against capitalism, wants redistribution of wealth, to be taken care of by the government. More taxes for the rich. I’m sure there are some with good intentions; but most I have my doubts.

The OWS supporters are: North Korea, Communist Party of China, Hezballah, Communist Party USA, the Unions, former ACORN workers, America Nazi Party, Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, most Communist countries. Others in the top 1 percent OWS are against: Michael Moore, President Obama, VP Joe Biden, Nancy Polosi and many more Dems in Congress.

There is no real comparison between these two groups as noted above. It does worry me that so many Communist organizations are supporting OWS and that they are getting more violent. ~

As for debunking your source. I think I did that. Did you actually read their “proofs” yourself? I am interested in, if after reading them, if you still want to claim them or distance yourself from them.

Ghost-rider interesting source. poolman already tried using that…source…and it was blown out of the water. I noted one claim of a guy who didn’t support Obama having a fight in a bar at 1:30am of being a affiliated with Tea Party violence. Sorry, but this is bunk and you know it.

IF that is not enough lets go ahead and check out your source and show it for what it is. Any good source has a great title or catch phrase. I will have to edit one letter of one word to stay in compliance with this blogs rules of profanity.

Look At This F*cking Tea Partier

Quite a heading. It does give me that warn fuzzy feeling of a source I can trust for truthful information.

You are an ideologue. That’s not pejorative, simply a statement of fact. You see what you want regardless of the circumstances.

The TEA Party has been just as irresponsible and violent as you claim the Occupy people have been. The difference being that local governments and law enforcement have promoted the preponderance of violence attributed to the OWS people. The TEA Party element, on the other hand, has done their violence without external help.”

I believe you have me confused with someone else. Or perhaps you are reading the posted quotes by others to whom I am responding. Or you have attributed the above quote to me, erroneously.
I may indeed be an “ideologue”, but not in the direction you seem to think.

“A ‘gun’ is nothing more than a tool. How it is employed is determined by it’s user.

Comprehension is the key. Look it up.”

Yes, but the function of a gun, as I stated, is to kill, either humans or something else. If target practice is the primary use for handguns, I would suggest a pellet gun or bb gun can have the same purpose, and be less deadly to everyone/everything else.

You are an ideologue. That’s not pejorative, simply a statement of fact. You see what you want regardless of the circumstances.

The TEA Party has been just as irresponsible and violent as you claim the Occupy people have been. The difference being that local governments and law enforcement have promoted the preponderance of violence attributed to the OWS people. The TEA Party element, on the other hand, has done their violence without external help.

A “gun” is nothing more than a tool. How it is employed is determined by it’s user.

“Simon, on guns. your wrong, I know it, common sense know it. Just going to have to agree to disagree, since you keep skirting the issue and lack the honestly to admit it. Again it comes down to the people you are talking about. Tea Party, responsible, non violent people. No problems here. OWS, rape, game rape, murder, and hundreds of more crimes, (yes I understand that per the size of the protest you allow for these felonies), I can see where you get nervous. In the name of Liberalism you with excuse, or make exceptions for, any and all crimes. Because you dislike the Tea Party, having a gun, at least by the measure of the attention you give it, is a far worse crime than using it on a human being to end their life. Lets put this horse to rest.”

My comment above partially answers this question (yet again). No issue is being “skirted”. I do not “dislike” the Tea Party, I actually could not care less about them; although I do have the intellectual honesty to know that they and OWS have a few concerns in common regarding the money governing us today.
No one is “allowing” for felonies. You make the same argument over and over, in spite of rebuttal after rebuttal. This is not debate, it is the Argument Clinic.
We will not “agree to disagree” until you stop misrepresenting the views presented and stop propping up straw men in lieu of a cogent response.

“Simon, you are what you are. You follow the party line exactly as you should. I don’t know why it always is this way with Liberals, but it is. If you were not feeling desperate you would not have felt the need to make personal observations about me. Simple as that my good man. No worries, I am used to dealing with people like you and I am more than happy to continue to deal with you within those limitations.
So by this statement all I would need is to point out one individual who has to make a liar of you as well. I would copy your own post if it wasn’t so redundant as my proof, so lets consider my mention of it good enough.”

My meaning eludes you, as it so often does. I did not say only you made “personal comments”, I said you allow only yourself to do so, and when someone else does it you complain and sniffle like a child. You will notice I have not concerned myself with what you say about me, because it is irrelevant, as I have mentioned several times.
But then a great deal is overlooked or not clearly comprehended by you. I have given you credit for being able to understand simple facts; and finally you admit get the statistical difference re: the numbers, location and time duration of the protests, but since it doesn’t fit your model it is dismissed. It doesn’t change the facts. Odd, too, that it required an inordinate amount of time to get that through to you, and one can be surprised you failed to take those obvious differences into consideration before you made such an easily obliterated argument.

“Whose life was threatened? Who did they threaten. Not your imaginings, give me specific acts of violence perpetrated by these individuals.”

And finally, an addendum to this comment. Does the word “implied” exist in your vocabulary? I used in this context. Who was receiving the implied threat? In answer, another question; to whom was Sharon Angle referring when she threatened “first amendment solutions” if she and her ilk were not elected? What was the “message” to which you yourself referred in an earlier post?

Simon, on guns. your wrong, I know it, common sense know it. Just going to have to agree to disagree, since you keep skirting the issue and lack the honestly to admit it. Again it comes down to the people you are talking about. Tea Party, responsible, non violent people. No problems here. OWS, rape, game rape, murder, and hundreds of more crimes, (yes I understand that per the size of the protest you allow for these felonies), I can see where you get nervous. In the name of Liberalism you with excuse, or make exceptions for, any and all crimes. Because you dislike the Tea Party, having a gun, at least by the measure of the attention you give it, is a far worse crime than using it on a human being to end their life. Lets put this horse to rest.

Puppet, I went to one Tea Party event for a couple of hours. The average age I would guess to be 35-50 range. If memory servers I would say 25% made up children to 20 and 65 and over with the remainder being between those two age brackets.

Simon, you are what you are. You follow the party line exactly as you should. I don’t know why it always is this way with Liberals, but it is. If you were not feeling desperate you would not have felt the need to make personal observations about me. Simple as that my good man. No worries, I am used to dealing with people like you and I am more than happy to continue to deal with you within those limitations.

“And I note that it is you alone who has the run of “personal observations”

So by this statement all I would need is to point out one individual who has to make a liar of you as well. I would copy your own post if it wasn’t so redundant as my proof, so lets consider my mention of it good enough.

Kill the babies, they have no rights anyway. Rape, defile, abuse, murder, because the ends justify if the cause is ours. If they oppose us, and they run for office, show no mercy. Destroy their career, their friends and their families, and continue to do so even when they are no longer relevant, if only to teach others the price for not being Liberal. Is it any wonder why the Tea Party is so passionate? To borrow your analogy Simon, Hitler has nothing on you guys.

4:00 pm, you sound angry. But thanks again for showing everyone else on here how right I am about Liberals being the party of personal attacks. So next time you wonder why we don’t have good people in government, as a Liberal.

“As to your last paragraph, all I can say is thank your again for making personal observations and proving once again Liberals are all about attacking the messenger when they are handed their verbal ass. Sad but true story that plays itself out over and over again on this blog.”

My good man, you have handed no one anything, never mind an ass. Your arguments have proven empty time and again, and that you ignore the substance of the rebuttals is proof enough of that.
And I note that it is you alone who has the run of “personal observations”, but it is off-limits to anyone else. You make the choice of using sexist language and references. Don’t “attack the messenger” when such crap is pointed out as the offense it is. Why stay here and whine about how your points of view are received? Odd, it seems to me.

So are you trying to say tea party participants are more virtuous? Personally, I think think they are just a older, more worn out crowd and they tend to be stuck in the webbing of their lawn chairs. Are any of them under seventy? I’m not sure anyone here is endorsing the OWS group, but most of us, I think, are keeping an open mind.

“Whose life was threatened? Who did they threaten. Not your imaginings, give me specific acts of violence perpetrated by these individuals.”

It is irresponsible for anyone to openly display firearms at political rallies. This really has to be explained to you? Really?
I don’t believe it does, I believe you are being purposely obtuse.

“List all the crimes committed by the Tea Party. I listed out many already done by OWS. 233 reported, on record, an estimated 1000-1200 unreported. First obvious comparison is, between these two groups OWS is by far the more violent group. These crimes were not just run of the mill crimes, these were very serious felonies many carrying mandatory life sentences. My second question is, how many crimes need to be committed before we can say they this is a problem? Before we can establish this fabled connection you claim does not exist. I say hundreds of crimes makes the cut. I am curious where you draw the line.

Tea Party held protests, but no one died or was raped. It was all quite peaceful and no one was adversely effected by their activities. OWS cannot claim the same. Many small business owners claim they had significant income loss due to protestors. Many business owners who supported them initially with use of their facilities and free food were later attacked when they stopped handing out freebies. The list of disparities between the two groups is tremendous. Do elements of the OWS movement exist that did not partake in these activities? Absolutely.”

My god, you are tiresome. I have explained to the statistical (no, I am not reducing the victims to statistics, but you know that, too. You may think such a comment makes a dandy polemical weapon, but in order to brandish it you must address “collateral damage”, and since you don’t, you render your “weapon” irrelevant) probability of crime, of all kinds occurring in large groups together for long periods of times, mostly in big cities. Of course, one crime is a problem; that is another of your endless supply of straw men, as no doubt, your supply of unsubstantiated anecdotes.
The “violent” tag you put on OWS is apparently all you have, and it has been weighed and found bankrupt each time you have presented it. Or, as I noted, you are a corporatist, cheering on the Corporatocracy.
Ignoring the arguments presented to you and repeating the same tired polemics is hardly what makes for intelligent debate.

Hope everyone had a Great Christmas…….I did……
Just wondering why the pipeline(creating jobs for awhile) is such a bad idea but ARRA (reparing roads) was so good…….only thing I can come up with is that the pipeline isn’t “green”…….like Solyndra….
Like Rush said….”Obama will loose campaign contributions from either the enviromentals (against) or the unions (for) once he makes a decision…..

Q: What does your daddy do?
A: He spends all his time on the computer.
Q: Is he a programmer?
A: No.
Q: Is he a writer?
A: Kind of.
Q: What do you mean, kind of?
A: He’s a blogger.
Q: He has a blog? Cool! What’s his blog about?
A: He doesn’t have one.
Q: How can he be a blogger and not have a blog?
A: He isn’t really into that.
Q: I’m confused.
A: Mostly he hangs out on other blogs.
Q: Like hunting blogs?
A: Um, no.
Q: Other guys blogs?
A: Um, no.
Q: Well what kind?
A: He just likes to dikk up other people’s blogs.
Q: Why?
A: He doesn’t say.
Q: Well he must have a purpose, right?
A: Not really.
Q: Dude, that’s embarrassing.l
A: Can we talk about something else?
Q: Dude, sorry. Yeah, how ’bout those Lions making the playoffs?

Oh and its not lost on anyone poolman you went after my spell-check error rather than anything of substance. It is the Liberal way, the cheap shot because you have no verbal leg to stand on. Class dismissed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/25/gary-boy-7-shot-in-the-he_n_1169636.html
A 7-year-old boy was listed in critical condition Sunday after being shot in the head while attending a Christmas gathering in Gary, Ind.
Leonard Cobb was reportedly playing a game in the living room during a family celebration when shots were fired into the home from outside, the Chicago Sun-Times reports. A 36-year-old man was also wounded in the incident.

Of all the websites targeted by NYC’s undercover investigation, Craigslist had the highest percentage of sellers willing to commit a felony by selling a gun to someone who said they’d probably fail a background check — a stunning 82 percent of sellers the investigators contacted.

Ironically, Craigslist is also the only site in the investigation that doesn’t allow sales of firearms. It’s clear that more oversight is badly needed.

Anon- yup.
Sure do.
Kinda like reminding myself everytime I step out the door during the summer that it’s bear season. Not so many surprises then.
Here, where there are few surprises it serves a different purpose.
Just reminding myself not to take myself, you, or anyone else too seriously. The blog owners don’t, thank heavens, which is one of the reasons I like to stop by here. Sometimes the BS gets kinds deep and reminding myself it’s a cyber parlor, with cyber pie-slinging amongst people who don’t know each other just makes all the aggravation fall away.

Jurors convicted Carnesville resident Larry Morgan, 39, of aggravated assault and two counts of aggravated battery this week for smashing several bones in the victim’s face with a pool cue on Jan. 31, 2009 — a few days after Obama’s inauguration. Deliberations took only an hour.

The single blow, which broke the pool stick in half, happened about 1:30 a.m. at Will Henry’s Tavern in Stone Mountain, said Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Taylor, who prosecuted.

This is what they call Tea Party violence. Compare this to rapes, murder, public deification, child endangerment, and various other felonies actually done at the OWS events.

Craig- I’m glad you popped in. Hoping this next year is much better for you and yours.
And joining in wishes others made.
Thank you Helen and Margaret for this place to shoot our cyber mouths off, for good or ill.
And for the accidental and interesting intersections of ideas and personalities which happen here.
And even the well-you-know . It gets tiresome but there’s enough interesting stuff going on that the pie-throwing just seems part of the background to it all.

Interesting website. It is someone who (A) has a personal agenda and (B) Fails to link the few I read to the tea party and of what I read did not even occur at events. It appears to be anyone who was found at a Tea Party event had background checks performed on them, and if they did something had their actions attributed to the Tea Party.

So your contention that these acts on this website you posted are as bad or worse than gang rapes and murder? Quite possibly your most pathetic post to date.

We had four republicans resign after death threats from tea partiers. That is just here in AZ, I don’t know about other parts of the country. They were associated with Russel Pearce, our resident white supremacist candidate that was recently recalled.

But there is a website that has been keeping up with the crimes associated with the tea party. I think they have most of the newsworthy links and probably they are a very “liberal” source, but since you can’t seem to find them, thought I’d help…

Just because plenty of OWS people have been arrested is not indicative of the OWS people being criminal. Have you seen the police forces brought to these “protests”? Full riot gear and trained by Homeland Security. The OWS people ARE a threat to the status quo, whereas the TP consists mainly OF the status quo. Many hundreds have been arrested for the crime of “peaceful assembly” as cities enact curfews and restrictions to shut down free speech and expression.

But I don’t expect you to grasp that truth, seeing as so many other obvious(to me) truths slip through that very grasp.

As to your last paragraph, all I can say is thank your again for making personal observations and proving once again Liberals are all about attacking the messenger when they are handed their verbal ass. Sad but true story that plays itself out over and over again on this blog.

Whose life was threatened? Who did they threaten. Not your imaginings, give me specific acts of violence perpetrated by these individuals.

“Where I disagree with you is with your implied contention that OWS existed to foment violence (trying to save time here, so that I don’t need to come back and clarify something yet again; in your exaltation of Tea Party “non violence” you are implying that is not a characteristic of OWS)”

List all the crimes committed by the Tea Party. I listed out many already done by OWS. 233 reported, on record, an estimated 1000-1200 unreported. First obvious comparison is, between these two groups OWS is by far the more violent group. These crimes were not just run of the mill crimes, these were very serious felonies many carrying mandatory life sentences. My second question is, how many crimes need to be committed before we can say they this is a problem? Before we can establish this fabled connection you claim does not exist. I say hundreds of crimes makes the cut. I am curious where you draw the line.

Tea Party held protests, but no one died or was raped. It was all quite peaceful and no one was adversely effected by their activities. OWS cannot claim the same. Many small business owners claim they had significant income loss due to protestors. Many business owners who supported them initially with use of their facilities and free food were later attacked when they stopped handing out freebies. The list of disparities between the two groups is tremendous. Do elements of the OWS movement exist that did not partake in these activities? Absolutely.

My apologies, I inadvertently post these comments twice; a technical failure on my port. Brilliant though they are, there is no need for them to appear twice. I have found no way to delete comments from this blog, if someone else can do so, the blog hosts, for example, please remove the repeats.
Thank you, and again my apologies.

“The tactics used by the Tea Party, to gather, protest and demonstrate, taking into account their non violence approach and the scope of their accomplishment, do you feel this was a historic and most impressive movement, and do you feel this is how protest should be conducted? (Note we are taking out any consideration of agenda, or any other touchy-feely stuff)”

It is surprising the lengths to which you will go to have someone agree with you. I agree that the Tea Party was “historic”; I never said it was not. I agree it accomplished some of its goals, I never said it did not. I don’t agree with many of its goals. Some, when they are sincere, I do agree with.

Where I disagree with you is with your implied contention that OWS existed to foment violence (trying to save time here, so that I don’t need to come back and clarify something yet again; in your exaltation of Tea Party “non violence” you are implying that is not a characteristic of OWS). There may have been peripheral criminal activity (as previously noted ad nauseum, not surprising given the numbers of people, many thousands, duration of events, many weeks, and locations, large cities), but OWS was a non-violent protest. At least until the cops showed up in full body armor and those cans of “food product” designed to burn a recipient’s eyes, more effectively when said recipient is seated on the ground. The two groups have some of the same grievances. Your obsession with the crimes reported, when violent crime was not the intent of the movement, suggests a desperation to discredit a movement with which you should, unless you are a corporatist who believes the US should be the corporatocracy many seem to be determined to make it, find considerable simpatico.

“Just a bunch of bitches on the rag, I could give a dam anymore. At one point I was foolish enough to think there was an even chance for civilized discourse. Tex had it right. They are here to circle jerk and tell each other how right they are, the truth has no place here or in their lives. As I said I gave up. Just going to do my do and let em cry about it.”

My god, what a whiner (and a sexist one, as well). Anon, wherever you go, to whomever you speak, there are always going to be those who evaluate your declarations and find them wanting. Some, as in this case, may try to discuss the matters with you and offer some alternative to your version of “truth”. One wonders why you would waste all of your obviously valuable time (your workers may wonder why the boss is spending so much time on a blog comments page while they have to carry his load, perhaps that is why they do other things at work; the standard is being set by the leader) in a debate if you only want your views and the fallacies of your talking points echoed back to you. Right Wing blogs may suit you better.

“Maybe Japan would be more suited to your belief system. It is a flawed argument to promote disarming the public because we have ‘some’ who would misuse it.”

Japan certainly has managed to create a civilized society, but their situation, culturally, historically and geographically, is considerably different from our own.
But in any case, nowhere have I stated anything about “disarming the public”. I was talking about the wisdom of, or lack thereof, guns at political rallies. This is obvious to anyone with the slightest sense of history, never mind anyone on this site who can read and comprehend what they are reading.

“Obviously the guns were not for hunting deer, Simon. Don’t be a fool. The point was to send a clear message. Did you get the message?”

You wrote this:And we know hunters don’t exist. You do know far more deer alone are killed than humans?

You brought deer into the mix, I suppose to make the typically irrelevant point in this case (which is about guns at political rallies…it is finally dawning on me how much has to be spelled out to you), that guns had other uses. Elsewhere, of course, I stated that guns had their place, but since the existence of such a statement doesn’t permit you to make broad stereotyped generalizations, you ignored that.

Then you talk about “the message”.
So let’s take a look at that. What is “the message” of brandishing firearms at a political rally, as opposed to a shooting range or a hunting ground? I suggest the message is clear. It is a message of irresponsibility and an implied threat. Madmen like Loughner have free access to multi-capacity firearms and fools such as the gunslinger at an Obama rally can openly wear weapons to make a point that…what? They can act irresponsibly and tacitly threaten the lives of anyone with whom they disagree or if they don’t like the outcome of an election? And, very unfortunately, they aren’t limited to the certifiably insane or questionably sane. Sharon Angle comes to mind (well perhaps she does belong in the questionably sane category, after all).
This is what I have been trying to get across to you, and if you do not understand it you lack either the intelligence or the intellectual honesty to do so. There is a time and a place for anything legal. Given the history of political violence in this country alone, political rallies are not the place for guns. Only fools, or disingenuous trolls, claim otherwise.

“Maybe Japan would be more suited to your belief system. It is a flawed argument to promote disarming the public because we have ‘some’ who would misuse it.”

Japan certainly has managed to create a civilized society, but their situation, culturally, historically and geographically, is considerably different from our own.
But in any case, nowhere have I stated anything about “disarming the public”. I was talking about the wisdom of, or lack thereof, guns at political rallies. This is obvious to anyone with the slightest sense of history, never mind anyone on this site who can read and comprehend what they are reading.

“Obviously the guns were not for hunting deer, Simon. Don’t be a fool. The point was to send a clear message. Did you get the message?”

You wrote this:And we know hunters don’t exist. You do know far more deer alone are killed than humans?

You brought deer into the mix, I suppose to make the typically irrelevant point in this case (which is about guns at political rallies…it is finally dawning on me how much has to be spelled out to you), that guns had other uses. Elsewhere, of course, I stated that guns had their place, but since the existence of such a statement doesn’t permit you to make broad stereotyped generalizations, you ignored that.

Then you talk about “the message”.
So let’s take a look at that. What is “the message” of brandishing firearms at a political rally, as opposed to a shooting range or a hunting ground? I suggest the message is clear. It is a message of irresponsibility and an implied threat. Madmen like Loughner have free access to multi-capacity firearms and fools such as the gunslinger at an Obama rally can openly wear weapons to make a point that…what? They can act irresponsibly and tacitly threaten the lives of anyone with whom they disagree or if they don’t like the outcome of an election? And, very unfortunately, they aren’t limited to the certifiably insane or questionably sane. Sharon Angle comes to mind (well perhaps she does belong in the questionably sane category, after all).
This is what I have been trying to get across to you, and if you do not understand it you lack either the intelligence or the intellectual honesty to do so. There is a time and a place for anything legal. Given the history of political violence in this country alone, political rallies are not the place for guns. Only fools, or disingenuous trolls, claim otherwise.

“The tactics used by the Tea Party, to gather, protest and demonstrate, taking into account their non violence approach and the scope of their accomplishment, do you feel this was a historic and most impressive movement, and do you feel this is how protest should be conducted? (Note we are taking out any consideration of agenda, or any other touchy-feely stuff)”

It is surprising the lengths to which you will go to have someone agree with you. I agree that the Tea Party was “historic”; I never said it was not. I agree it accomplished some of its goals, I never said it did not. I don’t agree with many of its goals. Some, when they are sincere, I do agree with.

Where I disagree with you is with your implied contention that OWS existed to foment violence (trying to save time here, so that I don’t need to come back and clarify something yet again; in your exaltation of Tea Party “non violence” you are implying that is not a characteristic of OWS). There may have been peripheral criminal activity (as previously noted ad nauseum, not surprising given the numbers of people, many thousands, duration of events, many weeks, and locations, large cities), but OWS was a non-violent protest. At least until the cops showed up in full body armor and those cans of “food product” designed to burn a recipient’s eyes, more effectively when said recipient is seated on the ground. The two groups have some of the same grievances. Your obsession with the crimes reported, when violent crime was not the intent of the movement, suggests a desperation to discredit a movement with which you should, unless you are a corporatist who believes the US should be the corporatocracy many seem to be determined to make it, find considerable simpatico.

“Just a bunch of bitches on the rag, I could give a dam anymore. At one point I was foolish enough to think there was an even chance for civilized discourse. Tex had it right. They are here to circle jerk and tell each other how right they are, the truth has no place here or in their lives. As I said I gave up. Just going to do my do and let em cry about it.”

My god, what a whiner (and a sexist one, as well). Anon, wherever you go, to whomever you speak, there are always going to be those who evaluate your declarations and find them wanting. Some, as in this case, may try to discuss the matters with you and offer some alternative to your version of “truth”. One wonders why you would waste all of your obviously valuable time (your workers may wonder why the boss is spending so much time on a blog comments page while they have to carry his load, perhaps that is why they do other things at work; the standard is being set by the leader) in a debate if you only want your views and the fallacies of your talking points echoed back to you. Right Wing blogs may suit you better.

Helen and Margaret, Matthew, poolman, PFesser, James, Craig, alaskapi, delurkergurl, Cynthia, uawtradesman, No One’s Puppet, JuneauJoe, Honolulu Sally, and others I have missed. I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. May all your differences be small ones.

PFesser,James,Donna..Alaskipi Delurker,Annon,Poolman,UAW,NOP..and all..Its been a while ….
and I see things have not changed too much.
But I wanted to wish all A Merry Christmas..a Happy Holidays or whatever your Political correct day you consider this.
It’s been less than a perfect year for us..but I wanted to wish the best to all.
Feliz Navidad…

One reason loss of temporary construction jobs with the pipe line is our economy. Nebraska’s unemployment rate is about 4.5% and Iowa’s fallen to under 6%. The last I heard, North Dakota’s unemployment rate was about 3.5.% Iowa and Nebraska have both gained population since the census.

You might be interested in MARI BOINE about the ban of joik. The Sami finally got mad enough to fight against what had been done to them.

We agree on what needs to be done, but until we rise up as the Sami did, nothing will change. Even the Tea Party and OWS movement couldn’t permamently change much.

re: open carry of firearms. I have been a gun owner my whole life and have concealed-carry permits in several states, but you can’t be carrying guns out in the open. You just can’t do that shit. It makes people nervous and is just for the most part an intimidation tactic by bullies with some kind of mental screw-up, precisely the people you don’t want carrying in the first place. Yeah, you have the right, but so what? Show some common sense for God’s sake.

re: motorcycle helmets, etc. I have never been without a motorcycle since I was sixteen and that was a long time ago. I lived in a state without helmet laws and I can tell you it is a lot more fun riding without them, but if you do so you are paying your money and taking your chance. Just not smart. I still ride a dirt bike on weekends without a helmet but my friends and I just putt along woodland trails. I’ll take my chance there, but not on pavement. Like the gun argument, you have to show a little common sense. Every doctor I know calls them “donor-cycles,” and that’s a good name for them.

James-
I think we have to try to demand these things rise or fall in seperate bills, whether something we personally agree with gets axed or not.
We also need to call BS! on other devices both sides of the aisle use to effect legislation which isn’t necessarily good law.
The introduction of appropriations language which would not allow the FDA to spend any money on finishing certification review of transgenic fish by my Rep was tooted up as a run at banning transgenic fish, something I would heartily like to see happen.
However, playing starve-the-beast- is not an effective, open, true way to deal with the issues there.
It’s scary to think about losing that battle but I would rather see it all dealt with openly, seperately, and decisively. If we have to re-visit things then, it’s a clearer road to resolution and not mussed up with a whole lot of horsepunky unrelated to the questions.
For ourselves, we have to demand Congress get off it’s game playing routine. Tactics of compromise are one thing, playing games are another.

You make some good points, but the political battle over Obama’s bind is driving this now. The logic of another bill for Keystone doesn’t matter because Republicans know Obama is delaying a decision to avoid alienating voters he needs. The merits of the bill mean less than the political gamesmen ship both sides are playing.

Our part of the country is doing fairly well, in part because of energy extraction and the farm economy. Our booms and busts have largely been associated with farm cycles and bad weather. The Heartland tends not to reach the extreme peaks and valleys felt elsewhere.This pipeline will create many jobs. Though a large percentage will be temporary, the economy is diverse enough, that we will not feel a crash when the pipe line is finished. Local economists say the pipe line will be a net long-term gain for us.

The extra oil will also help the economy through more stable oil prices. The US is becoming a net exporter of energy as Mageen, I think mentioned. One reason is our buying and processing oil for resale and our exploiting new energy sources. This is all good and reduces our dependence on enemy producers.

Canadian companies will sell their oil to someone. If we don’t buy it or block the pipe line, the Chinese are waiting to fill the void. Their developing country needs all of the oil it can get. They have invested in Africa, our Gulf, and in South East Asia to insure filling their future needs. Canada is another opportunity for them.

The pipe line here has been reviewed for years. Were it not for the political battle, it would be approved soon, even with the new route. It is safer for the ground water and the main obstruction is land owners, and establishing titles and compensation. An oil pipe line and a fiber optics line are buried under our farm.

Alaska is more dependent on energy extraction than our area is. It reminds me of Montana and other mountain states. Ghost towns remain as monuments to lost dreams after mines gave out.

If I was in charge, I would let the Keystone Pipe line rise and fall in a separate bill, and I think it would pass, because it wouldl benefit our country. You know how the system works. Politicians worry most about keeping their jobs. They sneak things into bills which should be in smaller, separate legislation.

This is playing out because both sides are holding the pipe line hostage for political gain. Their jobs are more important than ours.

Boehnor and Obama are both “harming us all.” So what are we going to do about it? Protest as they are in Russia? Or nothing? I’ll bet on nothing because most people care more about American Idol than Congressional games of chicken.

anon- yes, ANY. i don’t have any problem with saying ANY.
Some of those you are pointing to were casting about for any tactic to delay or derail a vote though- which is another game Congress folk of all stripes engage in. We should pay attention no matter who is shooting their mouth off.
I’m still stunned at Dems who think Weiner’s loss is sad and reaction to his stupidity is overblown. We don’t need ANY who act that stupid in Congress.

Pfft ! on the oneliner Muslim-loving throwawy line there.
Water assets in this country are a rightful and increasingly important measure of whether projects make sense .
You can yammer on forever about us being broke and all and short term relief being a-ok but whether we want to face it yet or not, it’s horsepunky. the boom/bust thing hurts us more than most things -including providing support to families caught in the lurch by boom fallout.
The refusal to come up with an energy policy which eventually gets us off oil because big business doesn’t want to adjust to it is at the core of all that fear-spreading, threaten the folks with security from Muslims crap you are spouting.
For a country which prides itself on innovation and risk taking we sure suck right along when big business wants security to invest which is denied to us in our communities and personal lives.
unbelievable.

For any member of Congress to tie the “creation” of thousands of short term jobs before full review of the proposed route change is completed to settling the problems faced by millions of Americans is problematic at least and unacceptable .

you mean like they did with a certain piece of health legislation?I seem to remember some Republicans getting hammered on because they wanted more time to read thousands and thousands of pages of a certain bill.

I cannot believe there is any debate about the pipe line. I guess someone up high in our government is looking out for their Muslim brothers. This one just hurts my head. You think people who have been out of work for 2 years care if it is a short term job? They have short term hungry kids. They have short term house payments. Unbelievable.

getting Alaska natural gas to market have drug on since the 70s.
Palin’s Alaska Gasline Inducement Act brought TransCanada into view here. So far, not much of anyone is impressed .
This wiki article is behind times and a fairly surface look but does point to some of the questions a large trans boundary pipeline proposal has to answer.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_gas_pipeline

James-
Senator Leahy called into question here the logic of strapping Keystone to the larger billhttp://leahy.senate.gov/press/press_releases/release/?id=fdc47ebf-ff53-4702-9d5f-d52165fc6c29
on pretty solid grounds.
One of the things about the whole jobs creation thing which bothers me is the boom and bust deal. I don’t know about your state, but we in the far west, much of whose fortunes and futures are tied to resource extraction , are regularly in conflict with ourselves and corporate interests over the short term booms construction projects provide and the long term dearth of decent jobs after a big project is completed ( as well as lack of access to the products we sell- but that’s another story)
Corporations of the oil and gas and mineral extraction variety are endlessly turning on the spin machine about how they will take their cookies and share em with someone else if we don’t buckle down and give em ours first.
We have a huge battle brewing, a leftover from last year, in the State Legislature and with the Governor over oil royalties . The sane voice out of the State Senate is demanding that full accounting and study be done before any tax structure is changed in favor of oil companies. The Gov and the skeerdy-cats/corporate shills in the House just want to accept the oil companies’ public assertion that they need more incentives to continue here- which does NOT hold up under even the most cursory review. There was a lot of holding-hostage crap from our State house last session over this and in the end seems to be backfiring as folks look at more long term goals here.
For any member of Congress to tie the “creation” of thousands of short term jobs before full review of the proposed route change is completed to settling the problems faced by millions of Americans is problematic at least and unacceptable .
This device of tying wierd “amendments ” onto /into larger necessary legislation causes way too much harm in this country.
Senator Ted Stevens here was a master of this and got a whole lot of stealth like legislation on the books this way. Our reprehensible Rep Young has done his fair share as well.
This crap has harmed us here and likely most of America. Issues which deserve full attention and for their own merits and demerits should be seperated and dealt with seperately.
The dishonesty of any, here Boehner, who tie this crap together on shaky threads harms us all.

Like our flood, few people cared about the Keystone Pipeline until it became politicized. The plan takes it from the Canadian oil sands to the oil refineries of Texas. The EPA ruled on it, and Hillary spoke favorably of the pipe line. The logic behind it is we would be buying oil from a friendly neighbor and reducing our dependence on hostile nations like those in the Middle East. Iran’s threatening to close the Straits of Hermuse and their planned war games concerning that made supporters campaign more actively. If the oil flow from that region is interrupted, or people fear it might be, the price of energy will surge. Even a better economy will take the price of oil up.

However, landowners and environmentalists worried about the potential danger to the Ogallala Aquifer under the Nebraska part of the pipe line. The ice age lake is under the Nebraska Sand Hills ranch country and is an important source of water. Oil would quickly sink through the sand to the water. Environmentalists began to lobby against the location of the pipe line, Nebraska’s Republican governor Johanns found his voice and spoke up against the Nebraska location. He then wrote to Obama and asked him to rule against the pipe line in its current location.

The fact that our flood broke two pipelines, one a few miles from our house, added substance to his argument. Environmentalists protested in front of the White House and at public meetings concerning the pipe line in Nebraska. The Canadians were angry and threatened to end the project. They finally found a new Nebraska route slightly west of our house. That wasn’t good enough for the enviornmentalists.

They changed their tune and argued what they had intended all along–to kill the pipe line and to stop Canadians from exploiting the Alberta tar sands. The Canadian company said “so much for you. Maybe we should sell the oil to CHINA!”

Though environmentalists opposed the pipe line, labor unions favored it, because estimates created 20,000 new jobs. They argued that the pipe line has been discussed and studied for over three years. It is time to build it. Meanwhile, Obama who polls show he needs every vote he can get was in a bind. No matter what he decided, one important group would be angry and might not vote for him.

The best option for him was to delay a decision until after the election. It was an obvious political decision and belied Obama’s stated concern and determinition to encourage job creation. The Republicans noticed and decided to force a decision . Many also believe we need the pipe line for economic and national security reasons. The Democrats and Republicans are standing fast because they all know that Obama will lose votes if he makes a decision now.

The majority of people here want the pipe line, but the Democrats probably guess most here won’t vote for the president anyway.

“delurker……then why the f6ck didn’t the senate pass a 1 year extension……is Harry that f6cking stupid…….”

No, he’s not. Perhaps you weren’t paying attention. Boehner was holding the American people hostage with a ransom the size of a pipeline. Boehner wasn’t going to pass anything at all unless the pipeline was strapped to it. You may have noticed there’s a pattern here with the wildly unpopular Mr. Speaker. Without the pipeline, Senate Republicans would have filibustered a year long extension. They filibuster everything.

They were not going to work that out by the end of the year. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of the senate chose not to put millions of families and medicare providers at risk, and they compromised with a short term extension. Unfortunately, they probably still won’t work it out in the next two months. It’s critical to damage the economy as much as possible so Obama doesn’t get a second term.

UAW – Add ham, onions and carrots and whatever spices you like. Once it is cooked remove the solid pieces and puree(sp?) them in a food processor. I don’t like my pea soup soupy with pieces but rather thick that sticks to your ribs.

I didn’t realize drugs were such a problem in what I would consider better paying skilled worker jobs. I didn’t realize there were that many problems/accidents that could actually be attributed to drug use. I wondered if it was just another “hoop to jump through” that employers came up with to “control” their workers. Of course you would expect your fellow workers to be clear headed especially in working with machinery. I didn’t mean for you to LYAO, do you think you can put it back on before Christmas?

I do think they should drug test the Wall Street people. The son of an old friend was a stock broker on WS and had a big “coke” problem. He got caught doing insider trading and had to find other employment. Perhaps drugs are the reason behind the mess on Wall Street.

catching up since I last posted…..LMFAO right now……..drug testing while working????????they didn’t want us f6cked up and killing each other…..then again I’ve seen(and worked with) guys that have had 30 tons hanging from a hook and couldn’t operate the crane unless they were f6cked up…… I’ve also seen guys that have been on the wrong end of a chain and had a piece of steel(10ft by 20ft by2.5inthk) land on them….yeah….I lost my lunch……I’ve personally been under 140 tons because someone had to wipe something off…….theirs a lot of people that want to make gun accidents a crime but accidents do happen but they are not crimes , they are tragedy s…..making split pea soup for my mother -in-law right now…..any suggestions…..
believe it or not I’m starting to agree with Pollman……GO Ron…..Oh wait….I’ve been drinking…..
delurker……then why the f6ck didn’t the senate pass a 1 year extension……is Harry that f6cking stupid…….did harry listen to “We need to vote on this to find out what is in it”……do you really think that the PEOPLE are that stupid…….then again……

From my understanding the Republicans wanted a year because it is almost impossible to implement a policy for 2 months. By the time this policy gets through all the red tape it takes to get it put into action it will be over. The people who have to actually manage it said it is impractical and near impossible to get done on that kind of time frame.

Liberal media IS a lie. But it is one often repeated even here on the porch. As for the mainstream media, we have propaganda and marketing outlets primarily. Often it is difficult to gain any real nutrition from within all it’s packaging .

But to each his/her/its own. We are free to make those selections – still.

I’m getting tired of this political football event. Both parties are taking us down a dark alley and only drastic measures are going to keep us from being mugged.

alaskapi, our long nights don’t compare to yours, but I enjoy them. The gun discussion was appropos. Some one a few miles north of us shot a mountain lion two hours ago.

This is one of our warmest winters in years, and I am putting my skis away after my last skiing this morning. It will be in the forties, so we will have a barbeque at our family gathering. Some people in Omaha plan to golf if they find open golf courses.

We have 11 sec more light today, will have 21 sec more tomorrow. Small spuds in the state of the universe but enough to cheer me here in the long dark.
Happy, Merry whatever to all.
Helen and Margaret- thank you for having us all in.

I’m confused about why you would attack my parenting. Perhapsp you are not arguing from a position of strength. My son is a surgeon. He harvests organs from people who ride motorcycles without helmets, as well as peole who have been injured in gun accidents. The people who are organ donors as a result of riding without a helmet are people who have exercised their rights and paid the price of their own decisions. People who became organ donors as a result of someone else’s decision deserve to have someone stand up for them.

you are correct anon, I do not care about those deaths, not even a little. I govern my house hold, and i do not have the arrogance to try and govern yours. Either learn to take care of your kids or don’t have them and don’t expect me to legislate your morality. If you want to be a lemming, then by all means jump off the cliff..just give me enough time to make some popcorn.

Whoa there James, “If it is legal, I think anyone who wants to should be able to carry a gun,” I’ve seen plenty of street people here in Vegas talking to street signs, I don’t think you or I think they should be allowed to own or carry guns.

UAW- Don’t feel bad, it was a long time ago and it turned out ok.
The point was , probably too obscure, that some rebuttals to “guns don’t kill, people do” should be talked about. People who want gun control, many rightfully, many overboard, are not really talking about guns, they are talking about people.
They are talking about what we know about ourselves and our behaviors and what might or might not be sensible, manageable ways to limit the damage we do to ourselves.
We can’t make the world totally safe but neither should we just shrug , like the NRA does, and say well, those parents, drunks, robbers, whatever, were irresponsible and should suffer the consequences.

Responsible management would have prevented those deaths in most cases. Keeping children of a thing does not protect them from a thing. Ignorance causes curiosity. You and those like you who shield your children rather than educate them and teach them responsibility quite frankly deserve what you get. That lesson I has to teach my son only has to be learned once. He never again defied that.

And by the way, my sons all call me sir, and their mother mam. They have done chores since the age of 6, and are all A and B students. The wife continues to do math education during summer break for an hour, 3 days a week. It is called personal responsibility. My kids are not dumb because we didn’t teach them to be ignorant. Our kids are not dishonest because we taught them accountability and the value of one’s word. So you will have to excuse me if I pass the blame on to you and yours for your fear bread out of laziness and ignorance and for leaving the education of your kids to the state. If the public school is teaching your kids more than you are then that is on you. Don’t restrict my freedoms because you cannot be bothered to have a hand in raising your own.

If it is legal, I think anyone who wants to should be able to carry a gun. However, I agree with Cynthia about my personal behavior. I want to rely on less lethal forms of protection first.

Another reason to have a weapon ready is predatory and rabid animals.

I also think drug testing is another way of controlling us. On the other hand we don’t want people high on drugs operating heavy machinery or working on our roofs. A construction company uses “they are all local and drug tested as a selling point in their commercials.

Anonymous, please explain how your responsible management of a weapon makes all those other children less crippled or dead when they could not be if there wasn’t an available weapon. This isn’t about you.

UAW – forgive me for my lack of knowledge here. Why did you or others have to be drug tested? Personally I am not in favor of drug testing without some valid reason. I do know someone years ago who made a load of money selling drug testing kits. But he also admitted it was just a way to make money. The/his company presented an argument to employers it was in the employers best interest to drug test their employees. but they squed (?) (rigged) the research to appear the American work force were all drug addicts. I am not babbling I just can’t get my thoughts to come out right at the moment. I just think drug testing is another way of controlling the American people and making money for some corporation.

how about the Civilian Marksmanship Program ….a U.S. government-chartered program that promotes firearms safety training and rifle practice for all qualified U.S. citizens with special emphasis on youth.

That kind of ignorance isn’t taught in our household Anon. As a Liberal I understand why you have a hard time getting your kids to respect you. In our household I assure you that isn’t the issue, nor is that the lesson our son took. He understands that there are no short cuts in life. He understands personal responsibility. Again all alien concepts you and yours cannot comprehend so I do not expect this post to mean much to you.

The only way your argument can be valid is if guns kill people or influence them to doing things they would not otherwise do. Where children die is from people like you who do not take adequate precautions to protect their children. Sadly your ignorance is probably genetic and little can be done. But you are right, your children deserve better.

THANK YOU, Anonmous, for proving my point. Poeple just like you have loaded weapons accessible to children. What your son learned was not to get caught next time.

I never said guns kill people. That’s your right wing talking point. I cited statistics that show that where guns are more accessible, more children die. Those children matter more to me than your opinion.

Alaskapi…
I hadn’t read your post yet when I was typing mine…….
I’m sorry thing like that are happening to you personally and I’m also sorry thing like that happen to anybody……
the thing with your ex wasn’t a gun law problem it was a medical-court problem(HIPPA rules)………apparently removing the guns didn’t help…….as I said before I’m sorry…..
using the word execute(pun) was because at the time I could think of a better word…….
I do feel that if someone is sentenced to death(w/DNA evidence) then it should not be delayed……..10 days max……the next question is what crimes should deserve the death penalty……
As an example(IMO) a man puts a gun to a 9 years old head and then sodomizes them or a man put an apple to a 9 years old head and sodomizes them…..both deserve the death penalty……
I don’t believe that all the people with drug crimes belong in prison but that doesn’t mean that it’s alright for them to use tax money(welfare ADC) to buy drugs……before I retired I was required to take drug tests for the luxury of paying taxes and would loose my job if caught, but its unconstitutional to test food stamp recipients…..Horseshit…..since when is a little smoke considered food……I don’t care if you smoke but I’ll be damned if I want to pay for it…..

If you can show me how guns kill people I will entertain your arguments.

What some people are, and others are not is not a valid argument. To use that analogy, some people are criminals, others are not, but since some are we should treat everyone like a criminal.

Our guns are in the open where our kids can see them and they are always loaded. The kids get to shoot them so they are not curious about them. They also know the serious consequences for touching a gun without permission. Ask my son who lost 1 month of his summer vacation for taking the 12 gauge off the wall. Gun locks were in place so there was no danger but it drove the point home.

Again you can operate under the Liberal premise all people are stupid and need to be protected from themselves. I cannot imagine the place we would live in if we legislated from a place of taking the worst of us and making laws that effected us all.

The thing about guns they are fast and deadly there is no turning back once you pull the trigger. Fists, bats, knives, etc. can also be deadly but usually it gives one time to reconsider their actions before they become deadly.

The people who owned the guns that were involved in the injuries or deaths of all of those children thought they and the people around them were safer because they had them. They may think differently now.

Apparently those children don’t matter to you. Perhaps that’s because they have already been born.

back to Mageen….
In 2008 and 2010, the Supreme Court issued two Second Amendment decisions. In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia[1][2] and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home…….
and I believe that the only countries with a standing militia are Israel and Switzerland……
and its to bad but the closest we are to a militia is the Civilian Marksmanship Program (look it up)……

donate to USA SHOOTING a 501c3 non-profit corporation, was chartered by the United States Olympic Committee as the National Governing Body for the sport of shooting …

“What if I’ve taught my kids not to touch a gun if they find one?
A number of studies [9], [10], [11], [12], suggest that even kids who are trained not to touch guns can’t resist, and that parents have unrealistic expectations about their kids’ behavior around guns. That’s why parents are encouraged to keep guns unloaded and locked separately from ammunition , and to ask about guns at the houses where their children play. ”

If your gun is locked up separately from the ammunition, how much good will it do you in a crisis?

“More than a third (35%) of homes with children—that’s 22 million children ages 18 and under in more than 11 million homes—had at least one firearm, found researchers in a RAND-UCLA study [6]. But only 39% of these families keep their firearms locked, unloaded, and separate from ammunition as recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics. FORTY THREE PERCENT % of these U.S. homes with children and guns reported keeping one or more firearms in an unlocked place and without a trigger lock. NINE PERCENT keep their guns loaded as well as unlocked. This analysis is based on data from 1994 interviews conducted in tens of thousands of households by the National Center for Health Statistics.”

Gun availability tremendously increases the chances of these incidents happening.

“When researchers studied the 30,000 accidental gun deaths of Americans of all ages that occurred between 1979-1997, they found that preschoolers aged 0-4 were 17 times more likely to die from a gun accident in the 4 states with the most guns versus the 4 states with the least guns. Likewise, school kids aged 5-14 were over 13 times more at risk of accidental firearm death in the states with high gun ownership rates. The findings indicate that gun availability is associated with accidental death by shooting.”

“In addition to firearm deaths, we need to look at how many children and young people are hurt by guns. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that in 1997, 2,514 children aged 0-14 were non-fatally injured by guns. In the same year, 30,225 young people aged 15-24 sustained nonfatal firearm injuries. These statistics include suicide attempts and both intentional and accidental shootings”

anon@11:43- you can see it as a cheap shot (pun intended or not) if you like but I see it is a probably-not-explicit-enough question.
How in the world do you make an argument for concealed carry for your safety and then, seriously or jokingly, say that without expecting some blowback?
A real cheap shot would have been to snark about whether the foil in your cap is concealed too.
Were you making a joke which didn’t amuse or were you being serious?
UAW- Stop it!
The people here today recognize some notion of gun ownership being ok. No one sees you as a bad guy on this… yet anyway:-)

“The 2002 edition of Injury Facts from the National Safety Council reports the following statistics:

In 1999, 3,385 children and youth ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:
214 unintentional
1,078 suicides
1,990 homicides
83 for which the intent could not be determined
20 due to legal intervention
Of the total firearms-related deaths:
73 were of children under five years old
416 were children 5-14 years old
2,896 were 15-19 years old”

There were zero people shot by people who didn’t have guns in their hands. …..the next question is “How many wished they’d had a gun?”
but then I agree with….”Time to stop doing nothing! If you don’t do something about this, every person killed by a gun from now on is your responsibility!”…..I’m glad you’re for capital punishment(death Penalty) and it should be executed (pun) in days not years…….

Poolman….brandish….to shake or wave, as a weapon; flourish: Brandishing his sword, he rode into battle. …Nice to know that it’s OK to brandish knives,bats,batons,wooden handles that protest signs are attached to,shoes,metal peace signs,padlock hooked to belt,etc….
tool….handheld devices that aid in accomplishing tasks….gun,knife,brass knuckles,roll of quarters,Louisville Slugger,3 ft length of wood,etc

anon can’t be from MI….it’s against the law to hunt from a motorized vehicle (cab of tractor or combine) but I have run back to the house for a gun to kill a cat the went through a piece of machinery and was still alive(usually all 4 legs missing)….the more I think of it it is legal in MI.to have a gun in a vehicle but it must be unloaded and cased……

I have a pistol for target shooting that I haven’t shot in 3 years (and clean it once a year)5 22s that I hardly shoot anymore(1st one was a Christmas gift when I was 10)(some are antiques-hex barrels-inherited) 2 deer rifles(I hunt in a shotgun only area) 2 muzzle loaders(legal in shotgun area) 1 shotgun(3 different barrels-one rifled and scoped)….
if someone broke into my house I’d probably pick up my old truck axle(what I call my first muzzle loader)and hit them with it…….I feel terrible that I’m considered by most of the people here as a menace to society……but not as terrible as the person I hit in the head…..?????would that be classed as a gun injury or death……

Bit of an unfair statement, rather surprised you made it. I never mentioned anything of the kind. Cheap shot I am not accustom to hearing from you.

All fine argument about scenarios that can happen. I hear military people kill themselves sometimes as well, and accidental deaths occur all the time, friendly fire as well. Do we advocate disarming our military? I don’t think so.

End of the day you have to prove guns kill people to have a valid argument. A gun is an inanimate object incapable of the crimes you put upon it. People throughout history taking something positive and used it for all kinds of terrible things. This does not mean we automatically get rid of anything that can be used for bad.

I agree with Cynthia. We own six rifles, shot guns and a pistol I inherited from my father. ACT vs REACT is a big problem. In addition, you must be able to kill or not with only seconds to asses the situation. Hesitation could give your attacker the upper hand and that person might be able to disarm you.

However, some of us still need weapons for protection. When a neighbor witnessed a drug deal, a man shot near his knees and warned him the next time a bullet would kill him. The sherrif told our friend to carry a weapon because his home was so isolated the law would not be able to help in time.

A student vandalized our property and left a couple of skinned dogs on our cars. He and his friends made a half-hearted attempt to burn us out. My wife took classes and told everyone she would soon be able to carry a concealed weapon. She also let everyone at school know who the vandals were. I didn’t need the classes because I am a veteran. Everything stopped. The news that my wife could carry frightened the kids. Neither of us actually had to carry a weapon.

In my opinion, the founding fathers would have included the right to carry guns.

Another overlooked weapon is a fire extinguisher. It can do a lot of damage.

anon @11:07-
We’ve had 2 of those “accidents” , though both victims look like they will make it, in my community in the last few weeks.
Both will have serious disabilities for the rest of their lives.
We , for sure, need to be able to have broader and better conversations about guns than what passes for talking about it most of the time in this country.

Anon- Actually, 20 below or not, the gangs in the ANC area blaze away pretty regularly, at themselves and anyone nearby. We’re not that isolated here. We have our own piles of dead bodies as monuments to human stupidity just as everyone else does.
If my beloved nephew who was murdered just over 2 years ago had had a gun, it wouldn’t have saved his life. The shooter came out of nowhere and it was a random killing.
Also, too, I am here today partly because I took action when the now-ex drinking-more-and-more started having “conversations” about cleaning up his life with his guns when he was in his cups.
I called his brother who came and took the guns out of the house, which the police would not have done.
I took myself out of the house when he decided fists would suffice if he couldn’t find his guns. End of that crap.
He was raised just as I was that guns are tools- losing a job and feeling overwhelmed by life pretty much threw all kinds of sensible training right out the window there.
Concealed carry because you perceive a lot of people don’t like you ?
hmmmm…

Would you believe I was moderator on the Janeane site? I was even an adminstrater, mostly by title only for a while.

Thank you NOP. I like what I know of Poolman and you too. I may enjoy attempting to crush either of you in an argument as you do the same, but we are just people.

Here is a present: Julia Savicheva- esli v serdce

“Days go by
Years fly by
Oceans dry up
And you are alone,
your soul and your eyes
are these tears and these
wounds
Just don’t look
Don’t look at other sides
Stay in the way you are
Stay yourself.
The whole world lights
up your eyes,
If in your heart lives
love.”
She is a Russian singer with a good voice. Anyway, no one will bother to check youtube, but if you did you might like the song.

I think it is easy to say one could protect ones self if you had a gun but would you ACT rather than REACT in a situation. In the Gabby Gifford situation the man with the gun almost shot the wrong person. IMO all women would be better off taking a course in martial arts to protect themselves along with being aware of their surroundings and their behavior/actions.

I believe in the right to own guns although I would not have one in the house myself and I have never been in position where I wished I had one. How many children have been killed or injuried by a gun their parents kept for protection? How many guns have been used in a moment of anger, drunkness or stupidity?

When the founders wrote the right to bear arms we were a young country. I believe there was concern that another country might invade and a need to protect ourselves. Also the country was still “wild” and the “need” for a gun was there. But would the founders write it today?

Again sorry what I thought was obvious needed to be explained. We did not conceal guns on the farm, why would we. Common sense should have prevailed here. We were on our own property. The gun was in the cab of the truck or tractor, wall of the barn, in the house, and depending on what we were doing worn as a side arm.

“Wearing Superman underpants might do just as much for your self-confidence and feelings of being in control of your life as carting around a concealed gun and create less problems if you feel threatened… by whatever.”

As you have said before you live in your own little world up there in Alaska. I’m sure the street gangs find the -20 below weather not so much to their liking. For the rest of us, the threats are real, and crime is committed everyday. No one is forcing you or anyone else to carry. You weigh that choice with your belief system and judge accordingly. Currently the laws of the land permit me to carry, so I shall carry, and I shall do so guilt free.

I have also stopped driving my family in my car because the potential to be killed in a car is so high. Much higher than the potential of an armed intruder coming into my locked home while we are there.

Alaskapi, I have shared some of my past here. You know it was unusual and at times, violent. Some grad students tried to get rid of me because I was a veteran. They tried and failed. In the end, I hurt a few of their grades.We also faced each other in classes which put a premium on class discussion. They ganged up on me but I was usually faster than they were. Some people tried to get rid of me here also. As I told delurkergurl words on my computer screen wear the faces of people from my past, and I re -attack them with relish.

Besides, someone had to do it. Condescending frauds like Stephen and the others deserve a reaction. So do intolerant people. Sometimes, I may go too far. The first message board I wrote on was Jeanane Garafalo’s when her anti -war statements made her notorious.

Men claiming to be Bill O’Rielly and Sean Hannity posted from time to time. I thought they were fake and called Bill False Bill or Faux Bill. I believe Ann Coulter and I exchanged a few words. I instigated a joke campaign to get Ann and Jeanane into a mud wrestling match. Since then, I have had the disquieting feeling that those people might have been who they said they were.

You do realize some 30,000 people on average die from guns in our country every year, right? If everyone carried, there would be more of these casualties. Common sense.

This is common nonsense. Accidents aside, guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Having a gun does not cause someone to going on a shooting spree. It is their tool of choice to commit their crime. Do you really believe that someone intent on murder would not murder if they didn’t have a gun?

“You people that say brandishing a gun in public deters crime are full of shit.”

How little you understand human psychology. Criminals, like any predator go after the easiest prey possible, prey that offers them the lowest possibility of risk to themselves. If a rapist saw a lone woman walking but saw her carrying a handgun, do you think he is more or less likely to attack her?

Human life is more important than stuff, I don’t care what the stuff is or who it belongs to.

Wrong. Someone comes onto my property, enters my home, they have forfeited their right to live. I cannot ascertain if they are coming for my DVD player or if they intend to kill my family, and I am not about to question them to find out. Could you stand by and take the chance with the lives of your loved ones to find out?

Thanks for the personal insult, proves my point Liberals are the party of hate and cannot comment on topics without going after the person. Don’t ever anyone tell me it isn’t so.

James, I seldom agree with you, so I thought I’d let you know for once, I do agree with something you said, “had we not invaded Iraq, Bush, not Obama would have been taking the bows for killing Bin Ladin. Of course, Obama made the right call when our agents found Osama.” Quite frankly, I like poolman a lot, but I resent it when he implies that either President Bush or President Obama are liars or disloyal to this country. These two men have more in common than any of us can possibly understand. They have both held the most difficult job in the world.
About this Stephen business, what prevented him and his group from doing on the sly, what he proposed to Helen? Sounds to me like someone set up a controversy just to see how it would get batted around here.
Merry Christmas All!

If a rape by one crazy person is “one too many” and condemns and entire OWS movement, what does 100,000 people per year shot or killed by people who possess guns mean? 592 people in one year killed accidentally by people who posessed guns. Some were children who were killed, and some were people killed by children. 592 deaths is 592 too many.

There were zero people shot by people who didn’t have guns in their hands.

Time to stop doing nothing! If you don’t do something about this, every person killed by a gun from now on is your responsibility!

You do realize some 30,000 people on average die from guns in our country every year, right? If everyone carried, there would be more of these casualties. Common sense.

You people that say brandishing a gun in public deters crime are full of shit. I’m sure it will in some circumstances, but it elevates the risk of injury or death in many cases. The criminals then bring bigger better guns to commit their crimes. It forces an unfair situation on those who prefer not to openly carry weapons.

Flying bullets have a tendency to create a hazardous atmosphere where humans are present. Human life is more important than stuff, I don’t care what the stuff is or who it belongs to. We somehow lost that key knowledge somewhere along the way in our enlightened and civilized society.

Just the knowledge that anonymous carries is scary since he/she/it has gone off the farm several times in this forum alone. I’m just glad the farm is in Michigan, from my perspective.

I am not against gun ownership. But there is a time and place for them. Public protests and voting places are NOT appropriate places for personal weapons to be carried, IMO. Think about what message it conveys. Think. Use common sense.

P.S. Were I to have my way it would be open carry of firearms rather than conceal. Robbers hide their guns until needed. I would rather have the guns serve their intended purpose of defense by deterring people through being able to see them.

I am also for carry on college campus. To many women fall prey to violent crimes and they should be able to defend themselves. Maybe the shooter at Virgina Tech would have been less successful had students the means to stop him.

oh crap, Anon.
No way does a concealed gun on your person qualify as a “tool”.
Whether you are right or wrong about the govt ( I think you are mostly wrong) the tools you would need are more in the damn-fine-lawyer category should you actually have to deal with the govt.
Wearing Superman underpants might do just as much for your self-confidence and feelings of being in control of your life as carting around a concealed gun and create less problems if you feel threatened… by whatever.

I carry concealed everywhere I go, with a few exceptions requires by law(bar, large events, church..ect) I would no sooner leave home without my underwear than I would my gun. I agree with alaskapi there is a fundamental difference between urban and rural folks. I live in the city but grew up on a farm. All my youth growing up a gun was a tool. Not a toy, not an instrument to use on another human being, a tool. I shot my first gut at the age of 8. My nephew shot his first gun at 6. We teach the same things my father and grand father taught me. It is a tool, never used otherwise unless someone is threatening what you have.

With the kind of laws passing in our government today, take our land, our freedom, our liberty, once piece at a time, there is no way I would allow myself to be disarmed. Understanding with the technology at their disposal my small collection of rifles and handguns wouldn’t make a bit of difference.

UAW-
I grew up around guns, am surrounded by them still. The stalled conversations about the-right-to-bear-arms are in large part due to the NRA’s refusal to engage , citing slippery slope fears, and certain anti-gun groups who take similar refuge in the opposite direction.
Sometimes I wonder how much all of it has to do with rural v metropolitan.
However, I don’t want the fruitcake
“I don’t ever want to be in a small room unprotected,” he explains, “when I know there are people in this country that have proven time and time again that they want to cause damage and hurt people.”

Mageen……..
go to Colonial Williamsburg and make that statement…..and they’ll tell you that a standing militia is every male over 16 and under 60 and is not a felon or disabled…..required by law to have at minimun a gun,1lb of powder, and 4 lbs of shot…..and to show up for 2 weeks every year for training….got that….Every….&..Required be Law……if you think that’s sexist then we can change it to Every Person…..

James- why did you even respond to the “Stephan”-anony?
Or the ‘Eric”, “Isaac”, or “Marjorie”?

Why respond to anyone announcing themselves with the rather provocative remark
“Since you post rather infrequently, we note that some of your fans have staked out claims and established their own little fiefdoms with their comments.”
except perhaps to ask if that is the rather untidy beginnings of a hypothesis to test?

Along with
“Thanks for stopping by. Even idiots are welcome to leave a comment. I mean it. Really.”

If you are not for me, you are against me. I’ll get over it. Now kindly return the favor.” from the What was I thinking when I called Sarah Palin a bitch post

Helen pretty much set the “rules” here and allowed for the broad non-post specific back and forth which goes on here ( Thank you Helen and Margaret), pie-throwing and all.
Folks are free to make of that what they will, throw up their hands and not participate, engage at whatever level they want to, etc.

It’s rather silly to worry about
“With your permission, we would like to divide up the comments between ourselves, going back quite some time, collect data and do some statistical analysis. Of course, the information would be held in the strictest confidence much as political polls are.” on any level.

If there is a group who wishes to do so, they can do it without permission anyway. The sticker would be if they wanted to use content here publically in any large amount or without attribution to Helen and Margaret’s blog. It amuses me to think what some kind of statistical -analysis “report” might be called.
“Distribution of Slings and Shots via Dueling Links”?

For the right to carry arms crowd . . . yes its in the Constitution and the way it is written would require the bearer to be a member of a standing militia. During the 90’s I was at my polling place (a little schoolhouse) on election day when some guy in a uniform wearing a gun showed up and just wandered around the line of voters. A volunteer member of a candidate’s team (also a relative of the candidate) gave him bloody hell; to wit: this was something done only in undemocratic countries, etc. (the tactful version). The gunbearer, who turned out to be a security guard for some organization and not there to cast his own vote, took off with the volunteer at his heels. This was reported up and down the chain of command of every law enforcement organization. Point: a tad of common sense about those guns, guys! They are like love of which one must be much more careful.

Its Christmas week and so today I brought in Subway party subs for the team and gave them 15 extra minutes for lunch.While they where gorging themselves on the food I generously provided, I overheard some of the stuff they’ve been getting away with while I’ve been hanging out here on this blog. Ungrateful bums.Nobody wants to work these days.

Thanks anon. Its not hard facing words on a screen. I learned long ago when I was in danger that the wrong emotionality can lesson your survival chances. I do try to see both sides. Sometimes, the other side is right.

You are accomplishing something by forcing people to look at things in a different way and to defend their views.Unknown lurkers read these posts. You might make one or two think differently.

Its the party of double standards. Bush was responsible for everything, Obama is accountable for nothing, as it is still all Bush’s fault.

I got the impression James that our man up there thought he would bully is with his legaleze. Another glaring double standard is they piss and moan about us being unkind, yet post after post hammering us is ok. Just a bunch of bitches on the rag, I could give a dam anymore. At one point I was foolish enough to think there was an even chance for civilized discourse. Tex had it right. They are here to circle jerk and tell each other how right they are, the truth has no place here or in their lives. As I said I gave up. Just going to do my do and let em cry about it. Your a better man that I sticking it out this long playing nice.

Marjory, we only know who Stephen says he is. If they study us, we have the right to read their conclusions. Therefore, it concerns us too. I did not direct their attention to myself. Isaac and Eric lobbed verbal shells at anon and me. If f that is the attitude of the group, they are biased before they begin. So far, they don’t impress me with their stories of educated professionals at the round table.

Speaking only for myself, I decided to stake out some territory when I was outnumbered and most people tried to get rid of me. I succeeded and then others like anon came along and made it happen.

I was ready to quit a long time ago, but two people told me this site needed an alternative voice. So here I am, and this forum is more balanced than it was. Mission Accomplished. That is no secret. We forced no one out. The others left the playing field and we replaced them.

Your being a woman has nothing to do with anything. If you insult me, and I am in the right mood, I will scorn you, even if we are face to face.

I have earned my ego and I am self-directed. I am also relentless, and I also know how to conduct research. The secret is to be unobtrusive Stephen’s two minions were anything but unobtrusive.

Bush did not give up looking for Bin Ladin. Its more complicated than a simple statement that he did. We don’t even know if Bush had more than a perfonctory voice in the decision.

The New York Times discussed the CIA’s closing the unit on July 4, 2006. Robert Grenier who was in charge of the Counter Terrorist Center decided the agency needed to reorganize to cope with changes in terrorist organizations.

MIcheal Scheurer, a former senior CIA official said the change reflected a view that bin Laden was no longer the threat he had been. His power was becoming less strategic and more symbolic. He disagreed with that opinion and said making bin Laden the first among equals would dilute the search.

Other officials countered that Al Qaeda was no longer as heirarchical as it once was and Al Qaeda-inspired groups were becoming more dangerous than the original organization.

After Osama went stagnant, intelligence organizations continued to look for Osama. They focused more on the # 2’s and #3’s to weaken the organization. There was never just one team searching for him. We have over a dozen specialized intelligence agencies with several fronts of electronic surveillance tracking of al Qiaida movements. This is why Osama had no electronic devices and communicated via curriers because he didn’t want to be tracked.

You can argue that whoever made the decision to end the task force made a bad decision and hurt the search. You can also argue that our invasion of Iraq took too many resources from hunting Bin Ladin. If you say Bush gave up the search and nothing was done until Obama, you are wrong.

I believe Osama was less important in day to day operations than he had been and the CIA, etc focused more on his lieutenants and other organizations which posed a more immediate threat. I also believe had we not invaded Iraq, Bush, not Obama would have been taking the bows for killing Bin Ladin. Of course, Obama made the right call when our agents found Osama.

I hope Helen approves of Stephen’s proposal yesterday to do a research study on this blog. I see what is meant about the two self-styled “lords” setting up their own little fiefdoms here. Stephen’s comment was addressed to Helen only. But of course Anonymous had to jump right in and denounce it as the “gated community” group. He has no way of knowing where or how the team lives and works. But that is his usual knee-jerk reaction to everything he knows nothing about. And as usual, James hopped right in to try to take charge and direct the attention of the research onto him self. What colossal egos. Do I detect a twinge or two of jealousy there?

Since I am a woman, now I’ll just sit back and expect a barrage of put downs from those two. That’s what they like to do best since it is the only talent they have ever exhibited.

I only wish I had the knowledge and experience to be part of the startup of such a research study. As Stephen stated it is to be a long range project. I am assuming the results will not be forthcoming for quite some time, even years. Still I would like to participate in any way I can.

In the meantime I want to wish everyone here on the porch a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy New Year, Winter Solstice today and all other celebrations between now and Groundhog Day.

“Bush dismantled the Bin Laden task force within 2 years after the 9/11 attacks. BUSH GAVE UP LOOKING FOR BIN LADEN. It took a new President Obama that made hunting Bin Laden and his pals a priority.” JuneauJoe’s facts are absolutely correct on this matter.

House Republicans CAVE on the Payroll Tax Cut. Why did they cave? THE REPUBLICANS WERE GETTING CRAP FROM THOSE THEY SAY THEY REPRESENT!!! The Republicans had no choice because they were acting stupidly and not representing the middle class wishes.

Bush dismantled the Bin Laden task force within 2 years after the 9/11 attacks. BUSH GAVE UP LOOKING FOR BIN LADEN. It took a new President Obama that made hunting Bin Laden and his pals a priority.

Quit remaking history into a Bush lie fest. President Obama did well with taking out Bin Laden and his buddies. Quit the lies and rewriting history. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld were incompetent fools. Face facts folks.
Had that mission lost our men – it would have been seen as a disaster. President Obama risked his Presidency on that mission.

Hey jo-jo. That script read like something off the afternoon soaps. What was courageous about taking out Osama. The President before him tasked the intelligence agencies to find this guy. Bush had nothing to do with finding him. Obama had nothing to do with finding them. Neither person was out in the bush looking for this guy. To say the phrase, get em, took no courage. It was a common sense call. It was a political win to take him out. And hell since we have been looking for him all these years..why not go ahead and kill him anyway while we are there. I laughed my ASS off watching this video. Pure comedy watching these guys act like they were right there, it was their finger that pulled the trigger, it was their heads bullets were wizzing past. Get over yourselves gentlemen. The brave seals on duty that day, and the intelligence operatives that found him deserve all the credit. You just gave the nod.

if this was a moderated forum with someone attacking me, my recourse would be to notify the moderators. If I retaliated, I could be suspended also. Moderators would likely tell us to refrain from any interaction including not posting on the same thread if multiple threads existed.

If attacks persisted or if the initial attack was really nasty, my complaint to the moderators would result in the wrong- doer’s being suspended or even banned.

You may already know this, but just in case I over estimated you, I thought you should know.

Legal Eagle, I could say under oath that I know within a reasonable doubt that what I wrote about Tea Parties and OWS is the truth, the whole truth and noting but the truth. I never wrote that not one single incident of Tea Party wrong doing occurred somewhere, so that is irrelevant. There were none that I saw or read about.

I have been libeled here on a regular basis. I have been defamed with malicious intent. Occasionally, I retaliate by speaking the truth. On other times, I exaggerate. So what? We are all big people here. If this went to court, I’d have a stronger case than my detracters. A long time ago the man who operates this site wrote that under the rules of moderated forums, the people calling me troll and other names were in fact the trolls.

“Partisan demagoguery does not apply to me, though I witness it frequently.

I’ve never directly accused someone here of lying though I have said someone what quoting lies and that was the truth.

“If someone is nice to me…” is mine. It is related to the Golden Rule, and the right of self defense. Insults and retorts would never make it to juvenile or any other court. Carry it to its logical extension which is physical violence, and it would go to court. I would win because some else would have initiated the attack.

Thanks to your silly attempt to transfer events on a forum to real life legal issues, I dub you.

While there are those who believe NDAA 2012 will continue an attempt to murder democracy, Obama feels adjustments made by a House-Senate conference committee has sufficiently addressed those concerns and will sign the bill.

Just to refresh your memories, we are a nation governed by the rule of law. In a society always in a state of flux, some laws need to be amended and others need to be annulled. That is why our system is comprised of three branches: Executive, Legislative and Judicial.

Some hypothetical questions. After subpoena and under oath in a court of law, would you, Anonymous, swear that your frequent statements on this blog to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God from your eyewitness accounts as to allegations of murder, rape and child abuse of which you have accused the OWS participants in this the country. If so, cite names, dates and places. Incidentally, the word is “heinous”.

James, under the same conditions of subpoena and affirmed under oath in a court of law, could you swear without equivocation that your frequent statements on this blog to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth from your personal experience as an eyewitness to Tea Party activities throughout the country; that there have been absolutely no incidents of felonious crimes or misdemeanors attributable to any such participants, directly or indirectly.

Both the OWS and the Tea Partiers are exercising their Right of Assembly under the Constitution.

It might be wise for both of you to apprise yourselves of the legal definitions of “libel”, “slander” and “hearsay evidence” as well as the penalties for perjury. I recommend the 9th edition of Black’s Law Dictionary over Wikipedia.

While you are at it, you could also consider the use of the terms “partisan demagoguery”, which in some cases is akin to “crying fire in a crowded theatre” if the intent is to incite. Such practices are not covered under the First Amendment of the Constitutional provisions of Free Speech.

The postures of “He/she started it”, “I am nice to him/her if he/she is nice to me” and the use of the word “Liar” without substantive proof are not admissible even in Juvenile Court.

Simon, lets just cut through the rhetoric and semantics and go with a bottom line approach.

The tactics used by the Tea Party, to gather, protest and demonstrate, taking into account their non violence approach and the scope of their accomplishment, do you feel this was a historic and most impressive movement, and do you feel this is how protest should be conducted? (Note we are taking out any consideration of agenda, or any other touchy-feely stuff)

Now, I am gone for a bit, whether I return to this blog remains to be seen. It is an entertaining one and its comments section is certainly lively.
I indeed to spend the rest of the week celebrating this holiday season and I hope all of you do the same. I suggest quality time with whatever family and friends you have, cherish them and that time and don’t let the toxic nature of partisan politics consume you.
Happy holidays to all and best wishes for the coming year.

Gingrich denied violating tax laws and described his college course as nonpartisan. But he agreed to pay a $300,000 penalty for his misleading statements to the ethics committee as it investigated the financing of the college course and other issues.

His foundation was cleared of charges it improperly funded a course taught by Gingrich, but Gingrich continued to lie. Lying, of course, at least according to Anonymous (one of them anyway), an impeachable offense, and should disqualify Gingrich for presidential candidacy. I hope he is the nominee, however.

“While the number of people involved in the protest is hard to determine, statisticians have successfully concluded that this movement has definitely set a record for the largest number of people masturbating on public property.”

“I don’t know why you want to vilify the gun…..It is just a visible object much like a peace symbol hanging around a neck…If someone were to get a grip of the chain peace symbols hang from and hit another in the head with it that person could die…..someone also could have been killed in Philadelphia when the Black Panthers were “protecting” voting sites with billy-clubs…….I can’t understand why you associate guns and criminals when most guns are for defense(OK…protecting against criminals)…. do you have screens on your windows to keep bugs out…..do you use spray when outside to keep mosquitoes away….”

The history of political violence in this country is depressingly extensive. Guns have their place, but not at political rallies.
Billy clubs and guns? Really? Come on.

“We have the right to carry arms. IT is lawful to do so. Period. I have a serious problem with anyone, you or our government wanting to disarm the public. I would not feel threatened, because I know the kind of people that goes to these events. You on the other hand, going to one of your OWS events, I can understand your fear of having any of them armed. That I get.”

You know the kind of people that goes to these events? All of them? Every one of them? Look, I have actually been extremely considerate of you throughout these discussions, lightly teasing you only once. But this absurd comment is almost too much. I have no wish to insult anyone here, but what an idiotic statement this is.

Simon….
I don’t know why you want to vilify the gun…..It is just a visible object much like a peace symbol hanging around a neck…If someone were to get a grip of the chain peace symbols hang from and hit another in the head with it that person could die…..someone also could have been killed in Philadelphia when the Black Panthers were “protecting” voting sites with billy-clubs…….I can’t understand why you associate guns and criminals when most guns are for defense(OK…protecting against criminals)…. do you have screens on your windows to keep bugs out…..do you use spray when outside to keep mosquitoes away….

“Simon common dude you are smarter than this. I never made a claim historic was good. I said they were historic. Find your integrity man.”

Everything you have said about the Tea Party has been in the context of it being “good”. It was historic, it accomplished so much, it was made up of good, god fearing peaceful Americans who only care about how much they love this country and the founding fathers and apple pie.
Please, lose your disingenuousness, man.

We have the right to carry arms. IT is lawful to do so. Period. I have a serious problem with anyone, you or our government wanting to disarm the public. I would not feel threatened, because I know the kind of people that goes to these events. You on the other hand, going to one of your OWS events, I can understand your fear of having any of them armed. That I get.

“the most ignorant thing you have ever said. I know you are not an idiot, so I have to believe you are just deceptive to say this. Self defense comes to mind. And we know hunters don’t exist. You do know far more deer alone are killed than humans?”

As I pointed out, a political rally is not a hunting ground or a sport shooting range. I will say it again, and perhaps it will sink in. The guns were paraded around at a political rally. Reports don’t include the number of deer at the rally.

“Look, whine and cry all you like about my handle. It is what it is and it is not changing. The fact you are so hyped up about it tells me you have a nefarious purpose and I am just not interested into playing with it. If you are so perplexed and bothered by it, just skip past my responses as Cynthia does. Though her reason is ignorance and embarrassment of being shown up.”

I explained the confusion problem, that’s all. I’m not nearly as “hyped up about it” as you are about Cynthia, but that is between the two of you, and has nothing to do with me.

Neither is teasing. Get a sense of humor, it will do wonders for you outlook.

“The Tea Party is indeed historical. So was Nazism.”

“This probably tells me all I need to know about you. To compare one to the other is outrageous. I misjudged you. You are not at all what I thought you were, but that is on me.”

It is also “on you” that you, conveniently, as I suspected you would, ignored the next sentence:The only connection being that a contribution to history is not necessarily worthy of admiration.
I have addressed your reaction to this already, it was very predictable.

“I also find it telling that the Tea Party were able to accomplish so much with no violence in your opinion is not enough to warrant respect for this accomplishment. I am of the mindset that the world would be a far better place if people could organize and enact change in a non violent manor.”

This too has been addressed, but taking a serious look at the logic and merits of the argument requires more energy than just dismissing everything as “excuses”.

Look, whine and cry all you like about my handle. It is what it is and it is not changing. The fact you are so hyped up about it tells me you have a nefarious purpose and I am just not interested into playing with it. If you are so perplexed and bothered by it, just skip past my responses as Cynthia does. Though her reason is ignorance and embarrassment of being shown up.

The purpose of a firearm is to kill or injure something, usually human beings

the most ignorant thing you have ever said. I know you are not an idiot, so I have to believe you are just deceptive to say this. Self defense comes to mind. And we know hunters don’t exist. You do know far more deer alone are killed than humans?

To the question of using “Anonymous” as an identifier, I meant to add this point: Anyone can use “Anonymous” and more do so than just the person to whom I am addressing this comment. It can be confusing as to who is posting what. A “name”, even a fake one, identifies the person posting as a specific individual whose observations won’t be mistaken for a completely different person using the same generic “Anonymous” appellation.

“Placing Nazi and Tea Party in the same sentence under any context brings up a negative connotation. They do not belong together for any reason other than a deceptive one.”

They are both negative, in my opinion, for reasons previously outlined (including the possible destruction of the only viable second political party) which was the point. Being “historic” does not mean good. There is no deception. One can compare arsenic to wasp venom, one is more deadly than the other, neither are desirable to ingest.

“As for hurting my feelings, your not capable. I made a values judgement, and I was in error, nothing more.”

“As far as being Anonymous, how is that anymore more or less telling than Simon?”

“Simon” is a name, “Anonymous” is a hiding place. Still, the blog comments give you that option, so no one can stop you from using it. My point was that I am even less inclined to have interest in an “Anonymous” evaluation than I am one associated with a name. But it really doesn’t matter, since I have no interest in either. These issues aren’t relevant.

“As for making excuses, and they are excuses for the crimes, I guess I reject out of hand the notion that if you put together a group of period for a long period of time, gang rapes and murders are to be expected.”

There are no “excuses” for crimes any more than acknowledging clouds and thunder in a small area means it is more likely rain in that area is an excuse for something getting wet. They are statistical probabilities. Violent crime is more likely in a large city than in the countryside. These are facts. Reject them all you like, (and since you are persistently gasconading about your understanding of the “liberal mind”) it is the nature of conservative thinking to reject that which doesn’t fit preferred opinions.

“If it was irresponsible for the man to have a fire arm in plain sight, then why wasn’t he arrested? That would be because he was breaking no laws.”

It is amazing, I must admit, that this question is even being asked. These were public political rallies, not private gun ranges or hunting grounds. The weapons were out in the open. The purpose of a firearm is to kill or injure something, usually human beings. It has no other raison d’être.
The things that can go wrong in such a situation are too obvious to list. The law, for better or worse, doesn’t always regulate responsibility. There is no law against blowing your house payment on several cases of fine whiskey, for example. But it is irresponsible to do so.

Cynthia
I find it frightening you could say some of these things. Me thinks communism would be more suited to your belief system.

Attempted murder of democracy
How so? In the reality I live in, everyone gets a voice in Democracy. I want Liberals to voice their opinion. I want Independents and Conservatives telling us what they believe. No one philosophy has exclusivity to good ideas. I would be interested in hearing how you feel the Tea Party takes away from that?

Attempted murder of common sense, logic, reason and reality.
Desecrating the Constitution of the United States.

I look at the Tea Party’s principles and I have to wonder what you consider to be lacking in common sense. To make this more organized and easier to respond to, to be accountable for your own words, let me list those beliefs.
1. Eliminate Excessive Taxes
2. Eliminate the National Debt
3. Eliminate Deficit Spending
4. Protect Free Markets
5. Abide by the Constitution of the United States
6. Promote Civic Responsibility
7. Reduce the Overall Size of Government
8. Believe in the People
9. Avoid the Pitfalls of Politics
10. Maintain Local Independence

I see a lot of good things here, things I believe our founding fathers would support. I know you will have a desire to take the easy way out and cherry pick one or two of these that your rhetoric has prepared you for, but if you really believe what you say, then take them all on. I have a hard time imagining that you would disagree with all 10 of these, so by all means tell us which ones you like and don’t like and why.

As for your belief that unborn children have no rights, we will just have to agree to disagree and say that both parties deserve consideration and protection. I have a hard time accepting that a woman gets 100% consideration and a child 0%. I find few things in life are this absolute.

Of course you can be too good to answer and let your rhetoric be your answer. I just thought I would give you an opportunity to show your common sense since you seem to have such a steep appreciation for it.

what about Santorum? He’s picking up big-time endorsements, by Iowa standards, left and right — or rather, far right (Schultz) and even more far right (Vander Plaats). The Christianists love him, because he’s one of them. He’s crazy, but keeps his craziness in check (unlike Bachmann). He’s polished from his years in the Senate (unlike Perry). He’s a social but also economic conservative (unlike Romney and Paul). He doesn’t have a history of personal misdeeds (Gingrich).

I just came in from skiing, so I haven’t checked much. For every Tea Party member, three or four sympathizers voted. That is what gave them their influence.

Meanwhile the LA Times says the Mayor says the city must find ways to cut expenditures because OWS cost the city so much money. Posters are angry because they think the city administration which pandered to the demonstrators should pay the bill, or ask the demonstrators to pay.

Someone wrote the OWS protests have cost cities over $23 million. Another posted that the OWS street group demonstrated against the 1% and stuck the 99% with their bill. Both stories support my point. This horse is dead.

Mageen, yes, our becoming an oil exporting nation is good news isn’t it. It is not entirely as it seems. We bought some of what we export elsewhere, and some is refined and then sold.Still, it is good news.

The proposed pipeline track is the cheapest and most efficient available. I believe the refinery capacity is larger in Texas than in some other areas. It is also near the coast. Sending the pipeline to Toledo would be a headache, in my opinion. It would cross through a heavily populated area which would mean more landowners to satisfy, and it would create a greater hazard if the pipe ruptured in or near a big city.

Our area is relatively thinly settled. NOP’s hangnail of a flood broke two pipelines, one in Montana, and one a few miles north of our home. I’ll bet you hardly heard of it. The land was too thinly settled to create a widespread economic or public relations cost.

All I know about the Kansas Tea Party problem is what you wrote. I will take your word for it, because it snowed, and I plan to cross country ski in a few minutes. With the current weather pattern, this will likely be our last snow for two weeks at least, and it will be gone by Christmas.

My argument focused only on the Tea Party’s effectiveness V OWS as of today. That’s all I proved. Like most such groups, the Tea Party does have a massive tin ear.

Omigosh! So much going on here. Oil: we have lately become an oil exporting nation. So much for the Middle East and Venezuela! As for the pipeline from Canada, could not figure out why there is such a staunch insistence on running that thing all the way to the Texas coastline. There are refineries much closer such as Toledo. Tea Party: somebody check out the huge story in the Washington Post as to what is happening under Tea Party policies in Kansas. Even they can function in ignorance, especially when it comes to taking $$ away from Head Start to create a program for fathers when Head Start already does that and quite well. After discontinuing a number of departments, agencies, programs etc. Kansas created the official Office of the Repealer. How much does anyone think that is going to cost? And it looks as if The Repealer will be around for a long, long time or at least until the Tea Party and its governor, Sam Brownback, are voted out of office. The TP sounds like it has the same kind of political tin ear it charges its opponents as having.

I’ve read every post Helen has ever blogged, and this one just doesn’t ring true to me — the small nuances of the writing style just are not in sync with all other posts.

For the first time ever, I believe someone else posted under Helen’s name and tried to mimic her biting wit. It’s a good attempt, but it’s just not entirely in sync with everything else Helen has written.

Bravo and mahalo for your latest post Helen! Ron Paul is probably the smartest “dog” in the pack, and lol about his genealogy! It was a bit cruel, but it brought to mind Molly Ivins and her take on Ross Perot sounding like a chihuahua.

HHHHmh is good enough there UAW.
The question as viewed in the article is about why black people are scarce in OWS. It really should be why are there so few people of color in general who identify with OWS. The article touches on a couple reasons, there are many more.
One of the failures of the article is that part of it focuses on groups like the NAACP in any way, a major fail on the part of the article to understand OWS or issues of PoC.
It’s one of those articles with a good question attached to a half-assed go at answers.

While the number of people involved in the protest is hard to determine, statisticians have successfully concluded that this movement has definitely set a record for the largest number of people masturbating on public property.

Placing Nazi and Tea Party in the same sentence under any context brings up a negative connotation. They do not belong together for any reason other than a deceptive one.

As for hurting my feelings, your not capable. I made a values judgement, and I was in error, nothing more.

As far as being Anonymous, how is that anymore more or less telling than Simon?

As for making excuses, and they are excuses for the crimes, I guess I reject out of hand the notion that if you put together a group of period for a long period of time, gang rapes and murders are to be expected.

If it was irresponsible for the man to have a fire arm in plain sight, then why wasn’t he arrested? That would be because he was breaking no laws.

“Yes, the Tea Party elected some metaphorical bomb throwers. I warned people they could do harm to both parties when the concesus here was that they were an ignorant group of yahoos would soon fade away. However, they saved us from Obama’s agenda. His successes have been limited since that election.”

The first part of this statement is easy to agree with. The disagreement on the second part is to be expected, since I consider Obama’s “agenda” to move the country forward on a progressive path, one that I enthusiastically support.

Permit me to say, although there is no reason to think it matters to you, I find you a fair and reasonable person with whom I have disagreements, but one who does not attempt to constantly move goal posts and whine about mistreatment in the course of a discussion. Thank you.

“This is what we call an admission of defeat and a discussion closer. A comment born out of frustration. I will accept it for what it is.”

No, a statement of fact. I am not “frustrated” with you. You have nothing to criticize OWS for than a small percentage of crimes committed in large groups over many weeks. That is what you have been obsessing over for two days now.

“There were thousands upon thousands of protestors with the TP as well, yet no criminal activity except for people attacking them. compared to the Tea Party, OWS had an enormous amount of crime. The fact you keep downplaying it just proves the point I have been making all along.”

If you actually read the arguments you might be able to refute them…but then again that would require facts and logic, so probably not.
One more time: OWS = thousands of people all over the world in circumstances lasting several weeks. Tea Party = mostly, with a few exceptions, smaller groups of older people, gathered for a few hours at most. The percentages favor incidents in OWS.
Also, I do not “downplay” them, I point out statistical facts. Make the Tea Party a world wide phenomenon, place thousands of them in limited quarters for several weeks and let’s see what happens.

“What about the man who condoned 9/11 and asked for it to happen 911 more times. Guess I found 1.”

Umm, possibly. To be fair I guess I should permit raving lunatics to count, since your gun slinger was one of those for your side. Well done.

“Subjective terms to prove a point. Irresponsible action in your book is speaking ones mind. Irresponsible in my mind is spending money like a drunken sailor and passing our debt burden onto our kids. It is also not lost on me you compare and contrast gang rapes and murder to verbal altercations.”

No, irresponsible action is carrying guns to public political rallies.
Spending so that our children don’t inherit a depression should be considered considerate, at least, and in the long run, responsible. The deficit, as I have noted many times, can be dealt with when times are flush; see: 1990s.
Once again, I made no such comparison. I stated no OWS supporters who are not certifiably insane support gang rape and murder. On the other hand, your gun slinger speaks for himself.

“Now we are heading down the old Liberal path of person issues. Having read the Nazi statement and have been forced to reevaluate certain assumptions I made about you, so I will bite to see where this leads. I am 51 years old.”

Reevaluate what? Oh, I see, you are now the hurt party, how dare I compare the Tea Party to Nazis! Read it again and concentrate this time. I said both were historic. The missed point (maybe it was missed…or perhaps you are, as I suspect, you are playing a predictable card) is that being “historic” is not necessarily a good thing. Again the obvious eludes you. They are no other comparisons, as I also noted in my original comment.
And please, understand I am here to discuss issues, not make friends or influence people, particularly anonymous ones. Your “assumptions” about me have no bearing or interest to me.
I accept your age as true.

“Sorry I should not have assumed the obvious. It was more an issue of going off on unrelated tangents thus causing length than it was about giving a complete answer. Point being, one conversation at a time.”

In my discussions with you I have taken a single post and responded to the different points made. Your comments have multiple subjects, just as this one does. I respond to each.

I agree, it was hypocritical to ignore Bush’s debt. I wrote at least once that the Republicans deserved to lose Congress because of their spending.To be fair, Democrats were largely at fault after they took over, but Bush could have vetoed the worst bills.

People expressed concern, but it was like a brush fire smoldering in a road ditch. After the crash, people became frightened and paid attention to the unprecedented surge in spending. The brush fire suddenly exploded in the grass land. That is what energized the Tea Party and Americans who shared their beliefs. At first, the Tea Party was left to its own devices because the party establishment and Democrats didn’t know what to make of them.

After they energized conservatives and independents the money flowed in. The Tea Party gave the Republicans a spine and they capitalized on it. Obama care and Democrats’ freezing Republicans from most of the major discussion helped. Nancy Pelosi’s saying they would have to pass the bill to learn what was in it fueled more enthusiasm.

The do nothing congress is real, but it is also a concept as the Monkeys were. The Democrats know this is their best way to keep Obama in the White House and win some seats in Congress. They are using the pulpit to paint Republicans as obstructionists when in reality both parties are at fault. Do Nothing Congress may work for them.

I don’t want Obama to fail as a president. I want some of his policies to fail. For example, the EPA wanted to restrict the amount of dust a farm will produce. The government also wanted to prevent young people from working on neighbors’ farms until age 18. This would have a serious impact on detasstling. The Keystone Pipe LIne has been studied for three years. The proposed route has changed away from the Ogalalla Aquifer to slightly west of our house.

Obama wants to delay a decision until after the election because environmentalists oppose the pipe line, and labor unions favor it. The Canadians are miffed and they threaten to sell the oil to China. Cap and Trade is another policy I want to fail. Hoping for policies to fail is different from rooting for an adminstration to collapse and bring down the country.

I have agreed with much of Obama’s foreign policy, and what is connected with the wars is basically a continuation of Bush’s strategy.

The stalled Congress belongs to both parties and it disturbs me, but I am still proud. Hispanics, Brits, Germans, and now Russians want to come here. We are still special.

James – “Yes, the Tea Party elected some metaphorical bomb throwers. I warned people they could do harm to both parties when the concesus here was that they were an ignorant group of yahoos would soon fade away. However, they saved us from Obama’s agenda. His successes have been limited since that election.”

I believe a larger part of the TP’ers “success” is related to the desire of some conservatives to line up without question, the amount of money that was put into that election and the Dems who sat home ticked off they didn’t get what they wanted.

Where was the big concern about our debt before Obama? I believe it became the “HUGE” issue because it was a way to PREVENT Obama and the Democratic party from having any success.

Obama fails we all fail. We have a do nothing congress and this makes you a proud American?

While you research this site, Stephen, I suggest you travel back to August before last. I think my memory is correct about the time. It was an amusing little episode in which some of the posters who are mostly gone now tried to vote me off the site.

Anon, about fun with folks like NOP. We are going to die. Why waste your time on something distasteful? Even shoveling snow is fun on the right day.

Simon, I believe TARP saved us. Do you remember the ashen faces after the meeting in the White House when Bush announced our need to find a solution quickly? It was almost like 9/11 again.

Yes, the Tea Party elected some metaphorical bomb throwers. I warned people they could do harm to both parties when the concesus here was that they were an ignorant group of yahoos would soon fade away. However, they saved us from Obama’s agenda. His successes have been limited since that election.

Stephen, if you are who you say you are, we who post here deserve consideration too. We are more than specimens. Your level of education doesn’t impress me because many who post on this site have been to school also.

I hope you feel you owe us the courtesy of sharing your conclusions with our little group. Competing wolf packs comes to mind.

I am not impressed if Isaac and Eric are representative of your group. A message to both:

Don’t worry Cynthia, you’ve never had the character to admit when your wrong, this isn’t news. You said you did your research, came up empty and presented it as fact. In 1 minute I proved you wrong and a liar. To quote Forest, thats all I have to say about that.

“I noted Cynthia you did not comment on me take you down and making a fool of you. A liar and a coward. But you are right. Our youth have a terrible mess to clean up that you and others like you have made.”

Excuse me you said something… you took me down? When did that happen? I missed it?!? Damn.

Noah, my dear, you would have to have a place of importance in my mind for me to be offended by any thing you may say about me.

By way of introduction, I belong to a group of professional men and women who get together from time to time for lunch and discussions. Isaac and Eric are colleagues who have commented here recently. Some of us were veterans in our youth and thus able to complete our education on the GI Bill. We are physical and social scientists, engineers, an economist, MBAs and yes, a lawyer. As you can imagine, the conversation becomes lively with such a diverse gathering.

The phenomenon of social networking has taken off with astonishing speed during the past few years. We think it would be an interesting project to do some research into popular blogs such as yours. Since you post rather infrequently, we note that some of your fans have staked out claims and established their own little fiefdoms with their comments.

With your permission, we would like to divide up the comments between ourselves, going back quite some time, collect data and do some statistical analysis. Of course, the information would be held in the strictest confidence much as political polls are.

From time to time each of us might visit the site and even ask some questions. We would most certainly identify ourselves as to what our purpose is. We have no political agenda or ulterior motives other than to gather data. This will no doubt be a long range study. So for now, I wish you a joyful holiday season.

Your obsession with the “criminal” aspect of OWS shows you really have nothing else to offer.

This is what we call an admission of defeat and a discussion closer. A comment born out of frustration. I will accept it for what it is.

There were thousands upon thousands of protestors with the TP as well, yet no criminal activity except for people attacking them. compared to the Tea Party, OWS had an enormous amount of crime. The fact you keep downplaying it just proves the point I have been making all along.

I will never pass up an opportunity to dig.

To each their own. Integrity is not for everyone.

“The Tea Party is indeed historical. So was Nazism.”

This probably tells me all I need to know about you. To compare one to the other is outrageous. I misjudged you. You are not at all what I thought you were, but that is on me.

I also find it telling that the Tea Party were able to accomplish so much with no violence in your opinion is not enough to warrant respect for this accomplishment. I am of the mindset that the world would be a far better place if people could organize and enact change in a non violent manor.

“There is not a single OWS supporter who will condone any crime.”
What about the man who condoned 9/11 and asked for it to happen 911 more times. Guess I found 1.

“There are, however, Tea Party supporters who will condone, even demand, the unrestricted right to act irresponsibly in public settings, and cheerfully do so on national television. ”

Subjective terms to prove a point. Irresponsible action in your book is speaking ones mind. Irresponsible in my mind is spending money like a drunken sailor and passing our debt burden onto our kids. It is also not lost on me you compare and contrast gang rapes and murder to verbal altercations.

Now we are heading down the old Liberal path of person issues. Having read the Nazi statement and have been forced to reevaluate certain assumptions I made about you, so I will bite to see where this leads. I am 51 years old.

Sorry I should not have assumed the obvious. It was more an issue of going off on unrelated tangents thus causing length than it was about giving a complete answer. Point being, one conversation at a time.

Simon….
I’m simply trying to point out (IMO) that the Republicans are not solely to blame as some people think……Yes Bush signed the bill….Could it have been a case of better than nothing…..
Yes …..Gingrich was reprimanded and fined for ethic violations concerning tax laws…..in 1999 the IRS found that Newt did not violate tax laws and was therefor cleared of wrongdoing…..Shouldn’t he be reimbursed for his fine????? So today Newt is being kicked around for NOT doing anything wrong……and Pelosi wants to drop some”dirt” on him….which is a House ethics violation itself…….if that happens shouldn’t Pelosi herself be reprimanded or censured……

“233 filed police reports are not mythology. Procedures set in place for OWS security forces to deal with criminal acts because the police could not handle it all. Why do you consider this mythology?”

The mythology is the insistence that OWS condones or members have participated in criminal activity as a matter of course. 233 filed police reports out of thousands of activities which were in no way criminal is a small percentage. Your obsession with the “criminal” aspect of OWS shows you really have nothing else to offer.

“The purpose of my admission of misspelling was 2 fold.
1. To show I can admit when I am wrong. I admit I am a spell check junkie.
2. To see if your intention was genuine or to see if you would take the lower road to grab in a dig, knowing what was the 2nd entry on that page. I think we have our answer.”

A brilliant tactic. Let the word go out far and wide, I will never pass up an opportunity to dig.

“Again, TP’ers were historical. Worth of note in any honest discussion. Note, the point of this all started on tactics, not points of merit of each party. Having soundly lost that argument you kept shifting focus to each groups agenda. If you are so bent on having that discussion I am happy to oblige. I was just desperately trying to stay on topic and have one conversation at a time because as I mentioned before, our posts were getting epic in length. These unrelated tangents only served to make the posts longer while ignoring the original premise.”

The Tea Party is indeed historical. So was Nazism. The only connection being that a contribution to history is not necessarily worthy of admiration.
The problem we have is in your insistence that OWS contains overwhelming criminal elements, or that it supports such crimes, when there is zero evidence to such an assertion. There is not a single OWS supporter who will condone any crime. There are, however, Tea Party supporters who will condone, even demand, the unrestricted right to act irresponsibly in public settings, and cheerfully do so on national television.

There is no guarantee that what you want to discuss will remain the focus of any conversation, here or in the non-virtual world. I am beginning to wonder about your age, only because you suggest a naivete that is telling. A guess would be that you are in your mid to late twenties. Just an observation, not, as you will no doubt take it, an insult.

As for “epic length”, length is sometimes required when discussing complicated subjects. There is no requirement, however, to either read or comment on such posts.

233 filed police reports are not mythology. Procedures set in place for OWS security forces to deal with criminal acts because the police could not handle it all. Why do you consider this mythology?

The purpose of my admission of misspelling was 2 fold.
1. To show I can admit when I am wrong. I admit I am a spell check junkie.
2. To see if your intention was genuine or to see if you would take the lower road to grab in a dig, knowing what was the 2nd entry on that page. I think we have our answer.

Again, TP’ers were historical. Worth of note in any honest discussion. Note, the point of this all started on tactics, not points of merit of each party. Having soundly lost that argument you kept shifting focus to each groups agenda. If you are so bent on having that discussion I am happy to oblige. I was just desperately trying to stay on topic and have one conversation at a time because as I mentioned before, our posts were getting epic in length. These unrelated tangents only served to make the posts longer while ignoring the original premise.

“Semantics, semantics and more semantics.
OWS have a strong criminal element, not a criminal enterprise. please keep it straight. very very simple to do.”

Nor does OWS have a “strong criminal element”. This is nonsense. OWS is made up of tens of thousands of people worldwide. It is convenient for you to believe Right Wing mythology, but that does not make it true.

“Again noted your inability to respond a historical success of the Tea Party is telling. I appreciate the civility you have shown but it is my concerted opinion you are agenda driven. You have predetermined, preconceived notions, and are not open minded to alternative ideologies. Taking a pass twice cements this notion for me.”

The Tea Party is successful in electing metaphorical bomb throwers to the US House and Senate, which have also succeeded in bringing the workings of government to a halt, to the detriment not only of American citizens, but to their own party as well. They may well succeed in destroying the Republican Party, in the way Gingrich and his merry band of anarchists almost did in the 1990s. This would, by the way, not be a good thing for the country. We need two parties with good sense and an ability to govern to the benefit of the entire country, not the moneyed interests alone.

To suggest I am “agenda driven” suggests you are not. This takes the intellectual dishonesty you pretend to deplore to a new level. We are both partisans for our respective world views, something for which there is no need for apology or excuse.

Semantics, semantics and more semantics.
OWS have a strong criminal element, not a criminal enterprise. please keep it straight. very very simple to do.

Again noted your inability to respond a historical success of the Tea Party is telling. I appreciate the civility you have shown but it is my concerted opinion you are agenda driven. You have predetermined, preconceived notions, and are not open minded to alternative ideologies. Taking a pass twice cements this notion for me. I hope you stick around, to few of us on here that can be in complete disagreement and not comment on each others families or other unnecessary inflammatory remarks.

“I remember that rant but I think the movement inspired Rick…..apparently(IMO) Rick and the others had previous conversations and Rick just verbalized what most people there felt….
that rant about bailing out banks and derivatives could also be said to have started OWS……”

Santelli’s comments preceded the “Tea Party” as an organized movement and the Tea Party Patriots credit Santelli for inspiring their formation.

“Isn’t it strange that a bill pushed through congress by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid is Bushes fault…….”

Didn’t Bush sign the first TARP legislation? Was there no veto pen handy?

“McCain on 1/16/2009 on anti-tarp resolution
“No further TARP funds should be released until we are able to impose strict standards of accountability and ensure that the
money is spent only as intended by Congress –- to purchase mortgage-backed securities and other troubled assets and provide help to homeowners who are on the brink of losing their most important investment and roofs over their heads,” said McCain in a written statement.”

I believe McCain was in the Senate at the time of TARP’s deliberations and supported its passing.
It was widely considered at the time that bailouts of financial institutions was required to prevent another Depression. Both sides feared this outcome and took that drastic action together.

“You can trivialize the fact you did not have the courage, in this case political courage, to throw a movement you support under the bus for the terrible things done. I will let you have the last comment on this point as I think we are at an impasse here”

You are extremely dense.
I throw the Mafia “under the bus”. I do not throw OWS under anything because of isolated incidents. Denouncing a movement for something it does not condone nor is responsible for is not courage, it is cowardice.

“OSW people somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 crimes, yet they are not criminals. This is political double speak, nothing more. According to the standards you have set forth, 100%would need to commit crimes for the OWS movement to be criminal. I think we are all intelligent enough to know this kind of an argument is a farce. End of the day this movement has a strong element of criminal activity, committing some of the most hanus crimes we have laws for. PERIOD!”

It is nothing of the kind. The citizens of New York are not considered criminal because of crimes committed in that city, whether or not the crimes are committed by citizens themselves.
By the way, the word is “heinous”. I mention this only because this is the second time you have spelled it so, suggesting that the practice is no simple typo.

“On your video link. I see two things. One I see you violating your own standard and taking not a 1000 like I am, but 1 person to paint an entire movement. Then I see a Liberal reporter asking questions of the worst kind. They are leading, they are obvious traps for a person with an agenda to push. This reporter has predetermined conclusions and used questions to steer the conversation seeking any and all gotcha moments. When the man would not take a walk down the road laid before him, Matthews then let his agenda out and asked him directly. This man schooled Matthew’s punk ass and made him look the fool he is.”

I offered the link not as a representative of the entire movement, but rather as a spokesman for the gun toting mindset. He is a Tea Party supporter. If you will, provide me with any record of a single OWS protester supporting criminal acts such as murder, rape, kidnapping, etc.

“Sadly this is how Liberals argue. There is no honest pursuit of the truth. There is no desire to get along, to work together. This is why we have problems, this is why we cannot fix things. This abject dishonesty creates an environment that breaks down any attempts at honest and fruitful debate to come to solutions. I thank you for this link. I have saved it to my permanent files to use as an example of what we have to expect when dealing with the Liberal mind.

To your statesman point, you are really starting to disappoint me. To use past and present tense as a basis of an argument to me seems beneath you. I may have used the wrong tense but my meaning was clear. A very dishonest ploy on your part.”

Where is the honesty in claiming OWS is a criminal enterprise because of the actions of some people who may or may not have been involved in criminal acts in or around the site of the protest? That is intellectual dishonesty, by definition.
You are welcome for the link. It should give you an example of extremist thinking paraded proudly for all to see, which was the intention in posting it.
Another link demonstrated what OWS is really all about, but that link will not be mentioned by the propagandists who you have already mentioned provide you with the faulty information on which you base your point of view.

“To your statesman point, you are really starting to disappoint me. To use past and present tense as a basis of an argument to me seems beneath you. I may have used the wrong tense but my meaning was clear. A very dishonest ploy on your part.”

Being wrong on such a simple historical fact regarding Gingrich’s term in the House and what caused him to leave it is no small matter. He was forced out as Speaker by his own Party after violating his Party’s own ethics violations. Your “meaning” was clear, yes, you think such a person is a “Statesman”. You were wrong on every count.

James, I think you have your Puppet and I have my Cynthia. I think each has taken an extreme disliking to each of us respectively and their soul purpose seems to be to get a gottcha or just to flat out discredit us. Its is personal and transcends any points of intellectual merit or logic. At least you seem to have fun with your stalker.

Simon….
I remember that rant but I think the movement inspired Rick…..apparently(IMO) Rick and the others had previous conversations and Rick just verbalized what most people there felt….
that rant about bailing out banks and derivatives could also be said to have started OWS……
Isn’t it strange that a bill pushed through congress by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid is Bushes fault…….
McCain on 1/16/2009 on anti-tarp resolution
“No further TARP funds should be released until we are able to impose strict standards of accountability and ensure that the
money is spent only as intended by Congress –- to purchase mortgage-backed securities and other troubled assets and provide help to homeowners who are on the brink of losing their most important investment and roofs over their heads,” said McCain in a written statement.

I don’t mean to speak for alaskapi, but I will anyway. I don’t think she meant personal responsibility as such is a goofy idea. I think she thought the Tea Party overly relied on the concept to fix our system.

Personal responsibility built this country. It is one reason bi- coastal employers favor heartland farm kids for jobs. The stereotype is of people who are self motivators, work hard and lack a strong sense of entitlement.

Our welfare state is eroding the sense of personal responsibility we need. We see it in people who bought houses they couldn’t afford or students who attended expensive schools like Harvard and majored in under water basket weaving. They made bad choices. That, combined with bad luck put them in their sad positions.

Since you may still be here, the Omaha World Herald wrote that Hurricane Irene dropped over five inches of rain on an area the size of he Nebraska Panhandle. Much of that water flowed quickly to the nearby ocean in many rivers.

The same average amount of rain covered an area the size of all of Nebraska on the Upper Missouri River basin. Moreover, it had to flow a thousand miles down only one river.

That flood came and went. Much of our land was under water for five months, and we still have a ten acre pond.

My original post illustrated the flood to show that Obama doesn’t care about our people, but you argued our disaster was just a hangnail in the general scheme of things. You were wrong.

Nop, you are as wrong about that as you were about our flood. If you believe the Tea Party as a group misbehaved, you are again as ignorant of the movement as you were about our flood. There is no comparison between the Tea Party and the bad apples who made OWS look bad.

Do you want examples of how someone can defend a group to which he doesn’t belong? Just for starters, try the Sami independence movement or the Fennians. You are a smart woman, but that comment was just plain dumb.

I’ve written before that Obama may win another election, and one reason is the Tea Party’s inability to compromise their principals.

alaskapi “As far as I am concerned though the TP derail in that they mostly simply want to get rid of any notion of social policy and justice in favor of some pretty goofy notions of personal responsibility being an adequate defense against the excesses of the economic hogwash that neoliberal policy rains down on us all.”

My experience with the TP’s is one rally and about 2 hours of time being there and talking with people. Keep that in mind. That said

Tea Party people are not against social programs. They are against social programs that we cannot pay for. They are against reckless deficit spending. There is a difference in your notion and mine, and I think it is a significant one.

We have to agree to disagree on the notion that personal responsibility is a goofy notion. Government assistance needs to be a hand up to get people to a place of self reliance, not a entity that amputates and becomes a permanent crutch. People are not helpless, people are not stupid, and people can survive without government assistance.

The Puppet is a sad example of how small minded Liberals are. Myopic more be more accurate.

“James, you can’t defend the Tea Party at every turn, and then say,, you aren’t one of them”

Yes you can. I defend the OWS people right to protest. I support some of the notions they make about out of control capitolism and corruption in our government. But as a whole the movement is a dismal failure and a lesson on how NOT to protest. I support the right for people to do many things I disagree with and I will defend that to the death because I want that right for myself. To deny them is to deny myself. Sad such a simple concept eludes you.

Simon, you are using semantics to defend, and not defend your points. You bring these points of semantics up in the context of these crimes, but say they have nothing to do with explaining the crimes, so why bring it up? Cake and eat it to phrase comes to mind.

To your saying nothing, and all the people in the left, well it was obvious so I didn’t need to raise my voice, you should have been able to feel my empathy from afar I quote again.

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing” Edmund Burke

You can trivialize the fact you did not have the courage, in this case political courage, to throw a movement you support under the bus for the terrible things done. I will let you have the last comment on this point as I think we are at an impasse here,

“To claim OWS consists of criminals is nonsense,”

Again this is where common sense fails. The TP”ers commit no crimes, and you cannot admit the positive side to them. Again name me one protest in history that has accomplished as much as they did without any violence. I noted no admission on this historical fact either.

OSW people somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 crimes, yet they are not criminals. This is political double speak, nothing more. According to the standards you have set forth, 100%would need to commit crimes for the OWS movement to be criminal. I think we are all intelligent enough to know this kind of an argument is a farce. End of the day this movement has a strong element of criminal activity, committing some of the most hanus crimes we have laws for. PERIOD!

On your video link. I see two things. One I see you violating your own standard and taking not a 1000 like I am, but 1 person to paint an entire movement. Then I see a Liberal reporter asking questions of the worst kind. They are leading, they are obvious traps for a person with an agenda to push. This reporter has predetermined conclusions and used questions to steer the conversation seeking any and all gotcha moments. When the man would not take a walk down the road laid before him, Matthews then let his agenda out and asked him directly. This man schooled Matthew’s punk ass and made him look the fool he is.

Sadly this is how Liberals argue. There is no honest pursuit of the truth. There is no desire to get along, to work together. This is why we have problems, this is why we cannot fix things. This abject dishonesty creates an environment that breaks down any attempts at honest and fruitful debate to come to solutions. I thank you for this link. I have saved it to my permanent files to use as an example of what we have to expect when dealing with the Liberal mind.

To your statesman point, you are really starting to disappoint me. To use past and present tense as a basis of an argument to me seems beneath you. I may have used the wrong tense but my meaning was clear. A very dishonest ploy on your part.

I noted Cynthia you did not comment on me take you down and making a fool of you. A liar and a coward. But you are right. Our youth have a terrible mess to clean up that you and others like you have made.

I agree there is some common ground between the groups, specifically the problem of corporate control over our government, and have stated so in an earlier post.
My argument is with those who caricature OWS, as a result of Right Wing propaganda posing as “news”, as violent thugs.

A Wall Street Journal opinion piece says, Obama wins reelection without so much as a campaign, you might want to read it. James, you can’t defend the Tea Party at every turn, and then say,, you aren’t one of them. Based on their, the tea party, behavior, I am considering using of the more earthy term for members of the group, it just seems appropriate for such low-hanging fruit!

As one of the few posting here who has actually seen a rally I know that “They are absolutely against the marriage of centrist political notions and neoliberal economic policy…” They were more effective than OWS because many are small business people and they operated the protests as they would a business.

Their commonality with OWS stated concerns is reflected in some Tea Party people at few of the OWS protests. Their “goofy” notions of the power of personal responsibility mirror the OWS “goofy” socialist notions.

The two movements should merge, compromise, and stay independent of the corrupting influence of outside aid. NASCAR drivers often work together until the end of a race. United we stand and all of that.

As much as it pains my old democratic socialist bones to say it Simon- I think you are only partially correct.
The Tea Party thingy does not want to keep continue the system intact.
They are absolutely against the marraige of centrist political notions and neoliberal economic policy which has governed our country’s course for at least 20 years and in that they do mirror OWS.
As far as I am concerned though the TP derail in that they mostly simply want to get rid of any notion of social policy and justice in favor of some pretty goofy notions of personal responsibility being an adequate defense against the excesses of the economic hogwash that neoliberal policy rains down on us all. That is not a desire to keep the current system intact.

“However, one is attempting to wake up the vast majority of this country, and the world, to the inequities of our system and how we are all affected, whether we think so or not. The other wants to continue that system intact.”

Perfect!!!!

Thank God for young people who attempt to clean up the mess their elders made!

In reviewing this thread, I must note this comment, from whichever of the numerous “Anonymice” hanging around here:
In reference to “Newt as Statesman”,

“He is in congress and has served for decades. He has extensive experience in both domestic and foreign affairs. What part of this fails your definition of statesman?”

He is not in Congress, nor has he been since his own party kicked him out the Speaker’s chair for ethics violations in 1999. His total congressional career was four years, hardly decades.
He has been a fairly obscure lobbyist since that time, until his recent return to the spotlight.
I would further suggest that a “Statesman” does not say things like this:
“I am convinced that if we do not decisively win the struggle over the nature of America, by the time [my grandchildren are] my age they will be in a secular atheist country, potentially one dominated by radical Islamists and with no understanding of what it once meant to be an American.”