Not all serif fonts are easy to read than any sans font, and none are easier for me as I cope with astigmatism.

The bookmark to the topics page is spot on.

This reminds me of something. One of the forum's excellent posters, siamond, delivered a presentation about Boglehead investing at my workplace not too long ago. He made it a point to contrast his outfit--a shirt he says that's older than his son--with that of a hypothetical Merrill Lynch representative, who you'd expect to wear a fancy suit, carry glossy fliers, and slick back his hair. Siamond brings substance, not surface, actual practical knowledge you can apply to retire early, amass wealth, meet your personal retirement goals. The reps, meanwhile...well, we know what they're in it for.

Though it took me about a day to get used to and understand the "Front Page" I've come to really like it. I find one page with he most updated subject matter to be really useful. I really like how I can just scroll through all the new aggregated discussions without going anywhere else. And, I also tend to learn about things that I didn't necessarily think I needed to know or even knew I should know by having the layout in this manner. I personally really like it!

2) That seems pretty ex cathedra. Could you give a reason for this other than "everybody is doing it now?" Or "it doesn't suit my personal taste?"

3) I don't use Reddit, but not because it's ugly. I've heard that it's a reasonably successful website.

4) Do you have any figures on the relative numbers of forum readers using desktops versus mobile devices? I have a decent smartphone with LTE. But the forum is something I us sitting down at home on a desktop, not while strolling around.

5) Actually, I just tried the home page on my smartphone--which it appears I've never done before--and it adjusts to the screen width, and it is perfectly usable, with a reasonable font size, and I can read it easily with my 70-year-old eyes. Furthermore, it works usably in either portrait or landscape orientation which is most definitely not the case with many mobile-optimized apps.

What, exactly, is wrong with the home page on smartphones--other than not being up to fashion trends?

P.S. I'm saying "smartphones" quite deliberately, because to me, my 9.7" Samsung tablet is also a "mobile device," but of course the home page is fine on its 2048x1536 screen. The issue is not whether you can carry the device, it's whether the device has a) a small b) touchscreen. When I am actually traveling, I use the tablet in my hotel room, not my smartphone while hiking Devils Tower.

The front page is the first thing a potential new user sees. The current design can be a little off putting the first time you see it. I understand that the functionality of the front page is important but surely it would not limit the ease of using or loading much to bring the aesthetics to par with the forum or wiki. Craigslist has been mentioned multiple times but Craigslist's front page looks cleaner than the front page here.

The front page is the first thing a potential new user sees. The current design can be a little off putting the first time you see it. I understand that the functionality of the front page is important but surely it would not limit the ease of using or loading much to bring the aesthetics to par with the forum or wiki. Craigslist has been mentioned multiple times but Craigslist's front page looks cleaner than the front page here.

Aesthetics are subjective. For me, the simpler is the better. If that were up to me, I'd replace the blue background of the Forum with pure white.

Victoria

WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. |
Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

I think of the issue from an alternative perspective, the core question that I ask myself is what is the function of a website's home page? The secondary question is whether or not there could be a better "index page" for the forum. Once those questions are answering then the 'prettiness' or 'ugliness' can be accessed, which of course will ultimately be decided in the eye of the beholder. There will be no right answer that will satisfy everyone.

Now to address my reframed questions. From my point of view, a website's home page should introduce the website to new visitors and entice them to explore the offerings of the site and to engage them to continue to repeatedly return to the site. Shouldn't it be the URL that you would give someone if you wanted them to check out the site to gain an insight into the Bogleheads philosophy? It doesn't need to be the page that users bookmark and consider their 'home page' for the site. Is all of that makes sense, could the Bogleheads wiki be more suitable to provide this functionality, particularly for newcomers to the Bogleheads?

Some historical context to the current front page can be found in the wiki, see The Bogleheads®

Bogleheads wiki wrote:In July 2001 Alex Frakt and Larry Auton debuted diehards.org as a convenient index and search capability in support of the Morningstar Vanguard Diehards Forum.

This page has periodically been refreshed and updated but the core functionality remains to provide a convenient index and search capability. Many members would (and have above) argued that they bookmark this page and use it extensively as their "Bogleheads home page". The only question I'd ask is could this functionality be provided from using a different URL rather than making it the front page. Then those interested in using the functionality would have an appropriate bookmark to use as their anchor point for visiting the site.

Personally, I don't find any value in the current front page and I consider the forum software (phpBB) index page, aka index.php as the home page and that is what I've bookmarked and use as my anchor point for browsing the Bogleheads site. As others have mentioned, the forum software provides a page that is somewhat equivalent to the current front page, Active topics, but I find that given the volume of posting that occurs on the Bogleheads forum and the fact that I only visit a couple of times a day.

To me, the current front page offers a percentage of the membership a very useful resource that serves as their main navigation point to the Bogleheads forum. I don't use it some won't comment on whether or not is it ugly. But I would question whether or not it is the best possible home page for the Bogleheads. In the eye of this beholder, it is not because it doesn't serve the newcomer to the site very well.

Normal people… believe that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain’t broke, it doesn’t have enough features yet. – Scott Adams

bogleheads.org serves new users with the links "Getting started" and "About us" and it serves both new and old users by presenting the "forum policies" link to new users.

Most so called modern websites don't do this anywhere near as well, many have a "read me first" link that is so deeply buried you have to call customer support to find it. If you can find customer support on the contact us page, if you can find the contact us page.

Remember most users are not new users, so there is a delicate balance between making things easy for new users and making thing usable for returning users.

Switch to a sans serif font. Subjectively, I find Times New Roman to be an ugly font for web pages and so do many professional web designers, hence why most major websites don't use it. Part of this problem stems from the fact that very basic web pages with no styling default to Time New Roman, so I think when a lot of people see it on a web page they have been conditioned to think that the page is either outdated, poorly maintained, or had little thought put into it (regardless of whether this is true or not). For example, if you encounter a web page asking for your banking user name and password and it used a Serif/Times New Roman font with basic colors, I'll bet most people's immediate reaction will be to think that the page looks amateurish and to be very weary of typing in their details.

Switch to a white background for a cleaner look.

Add a bit more whitespace between topics, links, headers etc.

None of these changes would impact speed and only require modifying the CSS so they won't affect functionality,
but would make the site look more professional.

Of course these opinions are subjective, but I think at least with the font changes, there is some predicate for doing that.

It would be nice to have a friendlier mobile version... Nothing radical. Keep the same spartan interface, but make it easier to click on a thread. I get the feeling that most members on here access it from their desktop or tablet. I agree the current format works well on a laptop/desktop.

Remember most users are not new users, so there is a delicate balance between making things easy for new users and making thing usable for returning users.

I agree. My key point is that both user groups, or use cases, don't need to use the same URL, because their needs are probably quite different.

Some examples. As I understand things, many long time members don't use www.bogleheads.org, they've long ago bookmarked www.diehards.org. Would it make any difference to those that use the current front page if the URL changed to something like www.bogleheads.org/fastindex? One update to their bookmark and essentially nothing would change for them. That could allow a more "newcomer" friendly front page to be deployed at www.bogleheads.org.

Many users, myself included, never use the current front page because we've chosen to use the www.bogleheads.org/forum (the phpBB index page) as it better suits our needs.

At the end of the day, it is up to the powers that be (site owners) to give some consideration to the various viewpoints expressed in this topic. I'm only trying to provide my $0.02.

Normal people… believe that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain’t broke, it doesn’t have enough features yet. – Scott Adams

Hey sheepdog, this year is the 20 year anniversary of your retirement! How is it going?

Hey, thanks for thinking of that. On October 2, just before the annual Boglehead's conference, that will be my 20th anniversary. Things are doing great. I have plenty of dough, am healthy, volunteering with kids at a school and our Children's Museum. Could things be better? No!..except maybe my wife's bum knees, but even with that, she laughs and we are happy companions.

If you don't mind, I will repeat what I wrote last year on my 19th retirement anniversary as it still stands. This is for you youngsters: For all of you starting your retirement planning journey, follow the good advice given by the Bogleheads. Turn off the noise (you know what I mean). And, when you do retire, relax and have fun, exercise and eat well to stay healthy, invest conservatively, spend frugally, share your good fortune with others, and then you know you have done it right.
Jim

People should not say everything they think. They should think about everything they say.

...Switch to a sans serif font. Subjectively, I find Times New Roman to be an ugly font for web pages and so do many professional web designers, hence why most major websites don't use it...

Perhaps "most" don't, but The New York Times,

the Wall Street Journal,

and The Economist

do.

Does this prove serifed type is better? No. What it proves that it is just a matter of fashion and taste, not "better" or "worse."

I think the idea that "serifs are bad on web pages" comes from the days of 72 dpi screen resolution, on which fine lines rendered poorly. Before the days of antialiasing, very very poorly. I suspect that if you were to do a study today, you would find in any situation with enough resolution to reproduce serifs well--and where the purpose is to serve readers, not draw attention--the majority of readers prefer serifed type... as they do in print. On the Amazon Kindle, where Amazon controls the whole experience, knows the device resolution, and has every reason to optimize the reading experience, the default font choice is serifed.

So why don't I complain about the Bogleheads' forum using sans serif type in postings? Because it actually doesn't matter. Neither does the Oxford comma. It is "Laurel," though, and all the people who think it is "Yanny" are wrong.

...4) Do you have any figures on the relative numbers of forum readers using desktops versus mobile devices? I have a decent smartphone with LTE. But the forum is something I us sitting down at home on a desktop, not while strolling around.

5) Actually, I just tried the home page on my smartphone--which it appears I've never done before--and it adjusts to the screen width, and it is perfectly usable, with a reasonable font size, and I can read it easily with my 70-year-old eyes. Furthermore, it works usably in either portrait or landscape orientation which is most definitely not the case with many mobile-optimized apps.

What, exactly, is wrong with the home page on smartphones--other than not being up to fashion trends?

P.S. I'm saying "smartphones" quite deliberately, because to me, my 9.7" Samsung tablet is also a "mobile device," but of course the home page is fine on its 2048x1536 screen. The issue is not whether you can carry the device, it's whether the device has a) a small b) touchscreen. When I am actually traveling, I use the tablet in my hotel room, not my smartphone while hiking Devils Tower.

I use my 5" smartphone for 95% of my BH reading and posting (like right now ).
I use the New Posts screen as my starting point and it works Just Fine. I tend to use portrait mode unless I need to expand a graph or something.

And my smartphone works fine on the forum with WiFi while sitting in an easy chair. One doesn't have to use cellular data while wandering around, though I often do when I'm riding in a car, for instance...

I wasn't aware of that page and at first glance it looks good. What I don't see is a "mark topics read" link.

When I go to a forum from the board index page (index.php). I scan through the topics, read the ones that interest me, click on "Mark topics read" then click on the forum index link which gets me a refreshed list of forums with those having new posts highlighted.

I know that was in jest, but it's true. And if a random fella spent a few minutes surfing the net to try to find financial advice, most FA sites would come across as far more professional than BH.com.

The point of a better, more professional, entry page is not to make it easier for those of us posting in this thread, so that we have milliseconds less of search time on our phone screens or whatever. We're already bogleheads. It'd be to give a better first impression to try to help lure those who haven't found the light yet.

I was drawn to the site because of the simplicity. It did, and does, stand out.

Back to the prior comments. What persuades one may have an opposite impact on another.

I wasn't aware of that page and at first glance it looks good. What I don't see is a "mark topics read" link.

When I go to a forum from the board index page (index.php). I scan through the topics, read the ones that interest me, click on "Mark topics read" then click on the forum index link which gets me a refreshed list of forums with those having new posts highlighted.

Just under the site logo, the header (top) of every forum page has "Quick links". This is a drop-down menu which contains:

and a few more which I haven't listed. If you're not logged in, you'll see less.

For mobile readers, the "Quick links" is replaced by the menu icon (3 horizontal bars). Touching the icon will bring up the same menu. (There's no site logo in mobile view, just the large text "Bogleheads.org" link to the home page.)
========================

As for "Mark topics read", the only way to do this is how you've described - via the forum view. I didn't write the forum software, but that's how it works.

To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

Aesthetics would be the very last thing on my mind were it to even cross my mind when seeking valuable, actionable information. The world is full of noise obscuring signal and with seemingly never ending external sources seeking the seduction of our eyeballs, our time, our life. Perhaps the most valuable competency of our age is the development of information and distraction filters. There's a reason Steve Jobs defaulted to saying "no".

I just wish we could make the color blue that is used more subtle, like the navy blue on the internal pages. That shade of bright blue is a standard “default” html css blue, and what marks the page as old school looking, along with the screaming red links.

I had a friend come into a very big windfall. I suggested he visit bogleheads for advice, wiki, etc. he pulled up the page then and there on his laptop, turned the screen to me, and said “this site?” With an incredulous look on his face. Like, 1999 called, and wants it’s home page back.

So yes, it can be offputting to the uninitiated. I urged him to click a link to show him that a more modern stylesheet would load. But the first impression was already made. I remember thinking we as bogleheads had lost an opportunity.

If I am being presumptuous, the only change to the front I suggest is to separate it so as to have the top portion of the page be the recently active financial threads and the bottom be the consumer stuff (should I get a new car? what kind of shoes should I buy, etc). My only frustration comes in picking through the consumer thread weeds to find the financial threads.

The top of the listing has links. Click / tap on Subforum to sort by the forum. Mobile users will see less information, but Subforum is available.

The forums are sorted in the order they were initially setup. The first forum on this site is Investing - Help with Personal Investments, as helping investors is the primary purpose of this site. Since the consumer forum was one of the last forums to be configured, it shows up last.

To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

If I am being presumptuous, the only change to the front I suggest is to separate it so as to have the top portion of the page be the recently active financial threads and the bottom be the consumer stuff (should I get a new car? what kind of shoes should I buy, etc). My only frustration comes in picking through the consumer thread weeds to find the financial threads.

Why not use the index then? You can read all the financial sub-forums and skip or skim Personal Consumer.

This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

Why not use the index then? You can read all the financial sub-forums and skip or skim Personal Consumer.

Thanks LadyGeek & Earl. I appreciate all the work that goes into managing and running this incredible resource. Clicking on sub-forum accomplishes about 80% of what I'm suggesting and I can live with the other 20%

The top of the listing has links. Click / tap on Subforum to sort by the forum. Mobile users will see less information, but Subforum is available.

The forums are sorted in the order they were initially setup. The first forum on this site is Investing - Help with Personal Investments, as helping investors is the primary purpose of this site. Since the consumer forum was one of the last forums to be configured, it shows up last.

Interesting. Had not before tried the Subforum page.

Instead, I select from the homepage listing, the topics with interesting titles. As a result, I occasionally stumble into an interesting theory topic. (I typically avoid theory topics as they are mostly beyond my math ability. I prefer theories with simple action steps: "buy the whole market", "age in bonds",....)

Example. Recently nisiprius and bobcat2 discussed the difference between a "hedge vs. diversification" in viewtopic.php?f=10&t=248269 . Not that I understood it, but it was interesting. (I believe nisi's position is that more angels can dance on the head of a pin, than bobcat believes. )

So by using the BH homepage and ignoring subforums, I've inadvertently exposed myself to more than I would have otherwise.