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YAKASMT (Yet another Kitchen Aid stand mixer thread)

YAKASMT (Yet another Kitchen Aid stand mixer thread)

Hello All!

I've been lurking for a while, and actually joined when I started my research on my upcoming KA stand mixer purchase... I have been wanting a KA ever since I started cooking/baking, and realized I would use one more than I ever thought possible when I worked for a catering company. We used our row of KAs as our extra hands, we could put together meat loaves, breads, puddings, gravies and all sorts of other stuff when we were feeding people by the hundreds. In my search and from the experience I've had, I know that I want a bowl-lift. Now here's where the questions come...

I was thinking that I would purchase a refurbished mixer. I have never had problems buying anything refurbished and I don't expect this to be different. I've worked in a few repair shops and can understand what the machines go through when they are rebuilt.

I was looking at getting the Pro 600, seeing how every once in a while it will hit 229 for an over stocked color, but I began digging around more and am wondering if the metal gear case has had as many issues as the plastic case had, or if I would be fine with the new metal design..

My alternative would be to go to the 7 quart, because supposedly there is a new design all together and it sounds like it would last. What I have not been able to find out is if the 7qt refurbished ones (assuming they are Williams-sonoma) are the same as the 7qt NSF refurbs or not? For the price that they are asking for these machines brand new, refurb is the only way I can afford to go.

Now, my usage isn't going to be a lot at first. I manage a pizzeria and work at a vacuum repair shop.. An odd combo I know. I am 25 years old and I love to cook, I love cooking for people. I want to get into bread making, but I don't like how my breadman ultimate kneads the dough. I also love making pizzas at home, and want to break down my 30+lb dough recipie that I make at work to something I can make at home and freeze portions of the dough. I also plan on using the KA as a meat grinder and pasta maker, but I'll have to get the attachments in time.

I know several people are going to say 'Get a Bosch or a DLX' but I do not want either right now. My Grandmother has a KA bowl lift (hobart, she used it daily to make bread) that was bought for her as an anniversary gift when she wasn't even married 10 years (Shes been married 50), my mother has tilt neck that she uses for quick breads that she bought when she remodeled her kitchen in her second house (post whirlpool takeover). I am set on having a KA Stand mixer. I do, however, see a DLX in my future as I get bread making under control.. I love the concept of that machine.

So, after the lengthy rant, is the new 7 qt machine's design worth the price, or is settling for a 6 qt machine with the new metal gear housing going to endure a long life of somewhat heavy usage and possible abuse?

I think the 7 qt is the one with the DC motor which should run cooler and should have much better low speed torque (which has been the issue with all of the recent 5 qt and larger KAs). The question is - did they modify the transmission?

If you buy one, please post your results so we can begin to collect historical data. I have not looked at the manual to see if they have removed the caution about not kneading at speed 2 for more than 5 min. That would be the first indication that they have really re-engineered it.

I would recommend against buying a refurbished unit. I have personal experience that says they don't actually refurbish them, but just ship them along to the next customer until somebody keeps it. I got one with a bad bushing, then I got a replacement unit that had an inoperative speed control right out of the box, then I got one that was just noisy. The noisy one has not failed yet but I wear my shooting range ear protectors when I use it - which I consider an unacceptable level of quality.

I think you will find his opinion well substantiated; read the KA threads. The post Hobart era KA is simply not the machine from which it derives its reputation. The comparison of bulldozers and Fiats may be hyperbole. Or maybe not; I owned a Fiat once, and never again. :-D

I purchased my KA in 1992 and it's been a work horse since then. It's only 260 watts max and it's made in the USA. Mind you, I have gone through a couple of whisk attachments and the paint is starting to peel off of the paddle and hook. I did not know about the Hobart connection until now. I'm gonna keep my eye out for one.

That's as specious an argument as you could make. Where ample testimony exists that the post Hobart, home sized KAs are limited to small batches and/or slack dough, I'll not be silly enough to buy one when I intend to make bread. They are clearly unfit for that purpose. Though some users and their machines may do all right, the preponderance of evidence is against it.

If someone already has a KA and wants to make bread, by all means do so. Just be aware of the limitations of the machine. If looking for a machine that will do general purpose mixing, and mix and knead a variety of dough types and batch sizes, then a more appropriate mixer should be purchased; e.g. the DLX or Bosch.

In the mean time, you do yourself no favors setting up straw men and dragging red herrings across the path.

Like you, I was enamored of the KA; after all, didn't all the cooking shows use that big brawny beast?

It took a lot to convince me the KA was not the way to go. I really, really wanted one.

Are you, perhaps, projecting? I have seen neither you nor Donkey_hot speak up for a consumer sized KA (even if called a 'Pro' model) being able to do double or triple batches of bagels without overheating or stressing the gearbox. Will your KA knead a 6lb. batch of 60% hydration dough to full gluten development (10–15 min. at speed 6 in a KA) for 4doz. dinner rolls without busting a gut? My DLX has done that; most recently for turkey day, and for every family dinner since I got it two years ago.

I don't need anyone's confirmation; I have something that works, and works well. For the KA, there is still scant support from bread bakers.

I have first-hand evidence acquired by owning a KA mixer for many years and using it to knead large number and large variety of doughs. You, on the other hand, only have a conviction that KA's are "unfit", apparently acquired from reading reviews. You support that conviction by throwing in examples of tasks that KA mixers, and for that matter their Hobart ancestors, or even modern N-50 were never meant for. That's a textbook confirmation bias.

On a parting note, if you have had powered yourself through the first 10 pages of "Bread" you would have found there a following statement: "...If the winodow is completely clear and the gluten is totally developed, the dough has almost certainly been overmixed. Appropriate gluten development does not necessarily mean full gluten development..."

Please allow Donkey to enlighten you on this just a little bit further... You've mentioned "I owned a Fiat once, and never again." Do you consider Ferrari and Maserati being worthy of calling them the performance cars? Guess what, they are owned by Fiat Group. And, in relative terms, comparing Classic/Artisan KA series with Pro Heavy Duty 600 watt models would be similar to making dramatic generalization by confusing Fiat 500 with Ferrari F 430, or (to be nice) Fiat Spider with Ferrari Testarossa.

On that note, Donkey also would like to emphasize that the most exciting artisan bread is not produced by processing the dough within an inch of its life and glorious achievement of it passing the windowpane test. This however remains purely the matter of opinion.

Gary... what are you talking about? :) If I ever need an expert advise on antique FIAT troubles, you are the man; but we are discussing here the difference between specific KA models , which none of them you've ever owned or used...

One thing to consider is that since you work in a vacuum cleaner repair shop, those folks can show you how to repair it if it ever breaks down. Those machines aren't very complicated and parts are available on the internet.

I am set on having a KA Stand mixer. I do, however, see a DLX in my future as I get bread making under control.. I love the concept of that machine.

Like you, I was enamored of the KA; after all, didn't all the cooking shows use that big brawny beast? Fortunately, I read and reread every thread I could find, here and elsewhere, regarding mixers that could handle bread doughs. I quickly eliminated non-Hobart KAs from consideration, which put the kibosh on all KAs as I wasn't going to hunt down the older, stronger, used version. The Bosch and DLX were left for consideration. From any number of comments on the forum and watching the machines in action on You-Tube, I came to favor the DLX. The roller/scraper action is surprisingly effective at mixing and kneading, and the Bosch-like center driven whisk and bowl do all that the Bosch does for whipping cream and meringue, for mixing batters, and for cookies. That said, the big SS bowl and roller/scraper will do as well; its drawback is that it is not as ergonomically optimal for pouring stuff as is the lighter plastic bowl with its handle and pour spout.

My point is, as I slowly reach for it, all these machines are in the not-cheap class; why buy something that is a half measure when you know where you will eventually end up? Go ahead and get the DLX. If you want good people to deal with, call Pleasant Hill Grain. (My only affiliation is as a pleased customer.)

I am convinced that almost all of the kitchenaid motors on the stand mixers Post Model-G are DC motors. I have not pulled them apart, but because they are brushed motors, I really have no other way to figure out how they could vary the speed on them the way that they do. If they were induction / AC motors, they would be constant speed at some number around either 1200, 1800, 3600 rpm (6 , 4 , 2 pole machines sans slip ). The old rheostat driven kitchenaids , K5A and the such, were dc motors with their armature and field voltage adjusted via rheostat. The K5SS more than likely just replaced that with digital components / solid state semiconductor driven voltage dividers, and then the whirlpool stuff took over from there.

So just because the 7qt NSF / williams sonoma version says it is a High Efficiency DC motor, doesn't mean the others aren't also DC. I think it is just something that they are trying to pull a fast one on you with.

The exception is if you use an old kitchenaid Model G or Hobart n50. these are constant speed AC induction single phase motors that are 4 pole, and operate at around 1760 rpm under full load. These motors aren't capable of running at different speed ranges without a pretty complex variable frequency drive, and as such have geared transmissions to make the planetary run at different speeds.

Williams Sonoma says there's a 2 year unconditional warranty on their 7qt KA they sell, i was just there yesterday trolling them, and oogling over the Breville Dual Boiler espresso machine. my next toy to get after the cadco XAF-113 with humidity (another recommendation per this board)

The Hobart KA mixers with mechanical speed control (I have one) simply controlled the average current (AC) with a contactor that was adjusted by spring tension that was set by the control lever. When they went to the SS models they began to use a triac (two silicon controlled rectifiers with a common gate) to modulate how much of each half-cycle of AC current was fed to the motor. It was electrically reliable and did not have the mechanical wear-out mechanisms that the mechanical governor did. All of these motors were AC. Probably universal wound so that they could be driven by DC or AC and still work.

A DC motor has a full wave rectifier and (usually) a filter capacitor between the line and the motor. The controller then pulse-width modulates the resulting voltage that is fed to the motor to effectively control the average current.

Why are there brushes then? How is RPM controlled? RPM on any AC motor is dictated by the number of poles it has and the frequency of the Alternating Current (the real abbreviation for AC).

Mechanically commutated DC motors use brushes, which is what the kitchenaid motors use.

See that picture of the motor armature? and the smaller part in the front? That's the commutator. These parts aren't on AC motors.

By the way " Average Current " is not AC. Average Current is abbreviated RMS, for Root-Mean-Square. AC is Alternating Current

In addition, most single phase AC motors require the capacitors moreso than the DC motors. the single phase AC motor requires a capacitor to start, otherwise it will be more than likely locked in place and unable to rotate when power first comes on. most DC motors i've worked with (0.5HP - 15,000 HP) use capacitors to bleed off the power across the source driving it, not really for filtering.

After looking into it some more, i'm convinced it's a DC motor with the field and armature wired in series so that you can run it on either AC or DC. This is why it has brushes and a commutator. The older kitchenaids probably used this style of motor in AC operation, while the later 7qt uses it in true DC mode.

Either way, my hobart n50 doesn't have to worry about any of that business

I didn't say both were hobart machines, only grandma's is. Moms is an almond colored artisan that was bought in the late 90's early 2k's and only gets used for quick breads, soft cake batters and the like.

I am hoping grandma gives me her machine as she might use it twice a year now since she hardly bakes anymore. Either way, I still want to purchase my own KA. The DLX will only come after I get a good hand on baking and can afford the $900 they seem to go for.

A curious note though, I see the 7qt machines are the only KA's that are listed by horse power instead of wattage. I know the wattage rating really doesn't mean much because if you have a motor running and you put a strain on it, it will produce more heat which means a wattage increase. That doesn't mean the power coming out the front, only whats being sucked in the rear.

I really do have my mind made on what I want to do, I just need to know if there is a difference between the NSF version and the WS version, as well as if either would be a superior choice over the Pro 600.

I'll probably end up just getting the NSF from food service and paying it off in payments on my pay check. I'm gonna go snoop through the equipment catalogs and see what I can find.

Us Foods only sells a commercial 5 qt KA Stand mixer and its $599.99. They also have a few options by globe, a hamilton beach, a berkel and a legacy hobart that they offer in the 'bench' category. Those go from $700 to $6000, with the hobart being the most expensive.

I am feeling that a refurbished 7qt NSF for $599.99 unit seems like the better deal, but then I am wondering why US Foods doesn't offer the 7qt model, unless that model came out just in 2012, because the catalog I have was published January of 2012.. Maybe I'll ask my sales rep.

*edit* I just did a search in the food catalog on my order guide and I can get a 7qt KitchenAid NSF for $686.03 freight included. Hrmm....

Wait a minute... Costco/Sam's Club/Sears often have 6 qt 600 Pro HD for around $300(+/-) brand new. There should be holiday and post-holiday deals as well. I would not get a refurbished machine, keep looking for better priced new one. I am not familiar with Williams-Sonoma 7qt model, but 5.5qt Pro and 6qt Pro work really well. Have seen them in four colors: white, black, red, and silver grey.

KAs are fine general purpose machines, however they do have their limits. It may be that the DC versions are everything KA consumers wish for, however you might consider another option. You can buy a less expensive KA for general use and a dedicated mixer for bread.

I have had a KA Pro 6 for more than a decade and just had to replace gears. It wasn't hard to do and not that expensive. It will probably last another 10 or 20 years. Still, the machine has it's limits. I would never use more than 500 grams of flour in a batch and I find that severely limiting. I have few days to bake, and when I do I'd like to get a whole lot done. I have a stand alone freezer and I know my bread freezes well. Making 7 bagels worth at a time? It takes a long long time to make a double batch of Hamelman's bagels.

So I've taken my own advice and keeping the KA for my wife, who at this time of year may make a few hundred dozen cookies, and I will have a Bosch Universal Plus which I ordered today. The KA is marvelous for her purposes and never gives her trouble. Likewise you could get a Hobart KA in good shape and a Bosch for about what you would pay for the top of the line KA. Something to consider at least.

BTW for Bosch owners, what would you suggest as an upper limit for batch size for JH's bagels?

Ok, so, after doing a comparison on the models KitchenAid offers, I think I am set on ordering the 7qt Commercial mixer. The reasons are these:

KA has put a two year warranty on a machine they market and sell commercially through food/restaurant suppliers. Aside from the WS 7qt, none of the other machines have a two year warranty. I know when I work on Riccar/Tacony vacuums, all of the vacuums have a longer warranty except for the ones marketed 'Commercial' -- They only have a year. Why would KA give the commercial one a longer warranty if something didn't change? Also, why would a food distributor (not talking restaurant supply stores now) sell a machine that is marketed to be a workhorse for dough just to have it break down from use right away (they don't sell other makes that I've heard really horrid stories about so its not just that they sell stuff to make money)? I know when I buy equipment from my food supplier, its meant to last because they HATE coming out to fix stuff if it doesn't work. Something has had to have changed. Whether its the hall sensor, metal gear boxes, different motor design or what have you, something has changed.

The 7qt should give me enough room to start small and work my way up. If I get to the point that I wanna take over where Sweet Heart bakery or hostess left off, I'll consider purchasing a DLX. I know for a fact I am going to make more pizza dough than I will bread dough just for the simple reason I can do more with pizza dough. (I just this weekend watched a video on making Stromboli on youtube and have found a way to make it work for me using my impinger ovens.)

The manual says nothing about limitations that have been mentioned before on other models when it comes to kneading bread. It does, however, say this "NOTE: Use speed 2 to mix or knead yeast dough or fondants. Use of any other speed with heavy doughs may cause mixer to stop rotating to limit mixer damage. This is normal operation. If this occurs, turn the speed selector to off, and then turn back on to a lower speed." Nothing is mentioned about the impending doom that will rain down upon the owner for mixing dough on a higher speed. It simply says the motor will stop (thanks to the hall sensor). I have more faith in that statement because I have an understanding of how a hall sensor works since Riccar/Tacony just released their Vibrance line with Lifetime belts in the 12amp range. Bringing a 12amp motor to a screeching halt because of a millisecond stall caused by a random sock or shoelace is quite a feat. The electronics in these new machines are really quite amazing.

The biggest reason? My boss said I could purchase the machine and pay it off in payments that wont break me. Honestly, if my supplier sold the DLX or MagicMill models, I'd seriously consider getting one of those first, but at their current price, are unobtainable for me at this moment.

With all that being said, and please understand that I do appreciate all of the replies (KA's are something that are close to a lot of peoples hearts and you can tell by reading some of the replies), my original question has not been answered. With the pro 600 models now having metal gear housings, are they more reliable than before, and do they deliver the expected results? I know people usually only post reviews about something when something has failed, and if the Metal gear housing has been out for a while, a lot of people haven't been complaining about it. If something were to fail in my attempt to acquire a 7qt model, would a pro 600 last me 20+ years of usage?

I have learned quite a bit from this site, and hope to continue learning and hopefully at some point become a productive member. I'll be patiently waiting for your replies!

The problem I have is that there does not seem to be a lot of experience with the 7qt mixer. From what I've read it would be hard to imagine it's not a significant improvement, but again that's anyone's guess as I understand it. Even so if I were to purchase a KA with the intent of using it for bread making I would go with that. The KA 600 will work but how long depends on how it's treated. It's not possible to give a guarantee since it's like saying "How long will this truck last?" Towing lightly a long time. Pushing it's limits often on a regular basis? The only possible answer is "not as long". If you are going to buy a KA, get the 7qt as it has to be better all around.

I have a Pro 600. It sees use 2-3 times weekly, has performed well for the past 4+ years. Have done everything from meringues and marshmallows to bagels and whole grain breads. It hasn't ever given me a minute of trouble, even when kneading pizza bianca dough for 20 minutes at speed 6. Granted, I don't abuse it with quintuple batches of anything, but it routinely kneads 2.5 lb batches of dough. Good luck with your purchase, whatever it may be. I did buy it new, not reconditioned, and I have the spiral dough hook.

Has anyone come across proline.kitchenaid.com? They have the 7qt Mixer on that site, but not the regular KA site, just the commercial. I was reading through and the ProLine KA 7qt has a 5 year total replacement warranty on it... Wow... Here is the stand mixer section from the FAQ:

Motor horsepower for our mixer motors was measured using a dynamometer, a machine laboratories routinely use to measure the mechanical power of motors. Our 1.3 horsepower (HP) motor reference reflects the horsepower rating of the motor itself and not the mixer's horsepower output to the mixer bowl. This robust motor, the backbone of our new mixer, delivers .44HP to the bowl enabling your mixer to deliver consistent power to small and large loads with less heat build-up; resulting in years of dependable mixing. When combined with and guided by our new advanced motor control board, this is our longest lasting and most efficient motor yet. Simply put, our new, highly efficient, special purpose motor delivers the power you need when you need it.

HOW MANY CUPS OF FLOUR CAN YOU USE WITH THE PRO LINE SERIES 7-QUART BOWL-LIFT STAND MIXER?

We recommend up to 16 cups of all-purpose flour.

HOW MANY DOZEN COOKIES CAN I CREATE IN THE PRO LINE SERIES 7-QUART BOWL-LIFT STAND MIXER?

14 dozen cookies (based on rounded teaspoons).

HOW MUCH DOUGH CAN BE CREATED IN THE PRO LINE SERIES 7-QUART BOWL-LIFT STAND MIXER?

You can create 8 ½ lbs of dough.

WILL MY ATTACHMENTS FIT ON THE NEW PRO LINE SERIES 7-QUART BOWL-LIFT STAND MIXER?

Yes, all attachments for the hub of the mixer will fit the new Pro Line 7-quart bowl-lift stand mixer.

It would be really nice if KA has in fact made a real (quality) mixer that can be used for bread dough and larger quantities of other mixes. I will be very interested to hear your comments after you have had the mixer and used it for 3 months or more. Good luck,

I own and regularly use a number of mixers. As small as a 5 quart Kitchenaid up to large commercially produced Hobart mixers. I have years of experience with a wide variety of mixers and offer my sincere and objective comments based on my ongoing use of those mixers. Apparently you do not like my observations and undoubtedly have your reasons for that. That is your concern. Whatever your reasoning for your dislike of my comments it cannot possibly have anything to do with me and as such would kindly request you direct your comments elsewhere.

Jeff, telling you to stop was impolite, and I apologize. But as long as you elect to participate in every thread on the use of KA mixers and inject them with your opinions, well-intentioned I am sure, I will feel a need to provide an opinion of my own. Not because I dislike you, nothing of the sort, simply to make conversations look more balanced.

I read way up this thread you are looking for 20 yrs out of your stand mixer. Also read mix upto 20 cups of flour. Also read power. I say go with Assistent Original. At 20 years these mixers are just getting broken in. They are super strong, large capacity with 2 size bowls part of basic pack. Packs more power into 600 Watts than you would expect because of the smart Swedish designers and builders of them. 5 yr warranty in Canada on Assistent stand mixer anyway is an added bonus though I have never read of an Assistent dying on this blog or any other which says alot about their qaulity.

My experience with the Electrolux only goes back 2 years or so, but I have every confidence it will make 20 easily. I only hope I'm still making breads then. ;-)

Due to this thread and another on KAs, I went back to read through the manual again. A note caught my attention. It said that when making more than an 8lb batch of dough, to only add 5lbs of flour at first. When it is incorporated, then add the rest. I think that speaks well to its capacity.

I agree, I have heard of people that have had Electrolux/Assistent stand mixers for 40 yrs or more and now their grandchildren are still buying attachments and using them again. Yes the quanitity it holds is fantastic and better yet the way it handles that amount. Its one thing to fit that much in, it in another that it incorporates it so well. With bread I usually add about 1/3 of the flour and let this sponge for about 15 minutes then slowly add the rest. Thats for a batch of bread containing about 17 - 18 cups of flour. As you can see by my heading, one concern is the many names it has gone by in the past Electrolux, DLX and most recently Assistent Original. Fortunately names have changed but the mixer is still the same great machine it always was.

Hi Mr. Knuckles, I've never heard of the Original. I looked it up but I can't get a clear sense of the beaters; can they run in the larger, stainless bowl or is the unit restricted to the smaller, plastic bowl? Beautiful machine, btw. Feeds right into the fetish!

The Assistent Original is a great stand mixer and you are correct about it being a nice looking appliance for countertops. A friend has the Black Chrome that blends nice with her stainless appliances.YOu are correct the beaters only work with the smaller bowl but I do almost everything with the roller and scraper. I rarely use the smaller bowl unless doing batches of under 4 cups, I find the combination of roller/scraper turns the dough allowing air in for nice light batters. It makes THE BEST shortbread cookies, possible!! If you want to see it working I know there are alot of great YOU TUBE

I received the pasta roller attachment for my KA for my birthday in September... I love them... you roll the dough out with the flat one first and then use the spaghetti roller or the linguine roller to finish... or just use the flat dough for ravioli... love it, love it, love it. I have the set of three rollers.

I have been trying to make a 10 to 12" tortilla shell. Tortilla presses are usually 8" and useless for my purpose. In comes the pasta machine !! Yeah.... I bet that would work, it would get the dough thin enough in order to drape it over the metal shell pans to make the perfect taco shell for a yummy salad.

After coming here and reading all the complaints and worrying and going back and forth a whole lot, I bought a KA Pro 600 bowl-lift around 6 months ago. After using it extensively FOR BREAD, and having never seen it so much as hiccup or even get warm to the touch, I have to say I'm scratching my head over the emotionally-charged negativity that some people pile on the Kitchenaid threads here. Now, I mostly make a 1000 grams of flour/64%-70% baguette dough or Foccacia, so I haven't tried it with bagels yet (not cause I'm scared to, but because I'm not much of a bagel-eater) and I haven't made any heavier grain breads (taste preference again). And I never attempt to use speeds such as 6. I mean- you can whip cream at 8! The mixer is supposed to basically replicate a humanly doable action, right? I doubt bread would have ever existed if you needed the kind of super-human strength that beating the dough for 15 minutes on 6 would equal! Anyway, I can't imagine wanting to beat the hell out of my dough like that- it doesn't feel right to me.

I got my mixer new for $275 off of an ebay seller. 1000 grams of flour makes six 18"- long baguettes which is 2 oven loads and is all I can fit in my freezer. The Assistent is $700 and would probably be a better choice if I frequently needed to make twelve or more baguettes at a time. It looks beautiful and cool and I certainly wouldn't reject it as a gift. But I don't need it for my home use. I have no sense of the KA limiting me in any way or giving out or not doing something I need it to do with bread dough. And I like also being able to whip up half a cup of cream or 1 egg white. So just adding to this thread in case anyone else comes here wondering if the Kitchenaid 600 is no good for bread. For my bread it is doing great.

I'm far from a professional cook, just a computer guy who seems to enjoy cooking more than computing lately, lol.

I went into the purchase thinking, easy, get a KitchenAid. Then I read hundreds of reviews and comments on dozens of sites. The main thing I want to make is pizza dough, and I can see getting into other breads and rolls. "zaster" those look awesome. I saw enough about the "issues" to assume they are not just one disatisfied customer. I considered the Bosch Universal, Cusinart 6qt and the Viking, but ended up with the Pro 600. Anyhow, here is my experience with the KitchenAid Professional 600.

1. I made a frosting that was 2 sticks of butter and 3 cups of confectioners sugar and it did a great job. The butter was room temperature and was really a little too cold/thick for mixing, but after working it, turning it off for a sec to scrape the wisk with a spatula, the butter got going pretty good and the end result was great. In particular I thought it did a great job getting to all sides and mixing everything up.

2. Made some cookies using a box of red velvet cake mix and the flat beater. The Pro 600 did a great job mixing the dough and it worked the whole bowl nice and clean.

3. Made pizza dough using around 3 1/2 to 3/4cups of King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose. My first pizza dough with the mixer. Any issues here were mine, I think I learned to save some flour and start the mix a little wet then add the remaining flour. This seemed to aid the mixing and cleaning of the bowl. When I had the dough the wetness I wanted, the PowerKnead, pig-tail, spiral dough hook had me jumping around the kitchen with joy. After making piza dough by hand for a few years, what a sight to behold! I've never used an Artisan with the C shaped dough hook, but I would have to think this spiral shape is the way to go. The dough behaved great, easy to work with and shape- made two 14" pizzas with ease. The pizza cooked up great!

4. I made a meat-loaf with about 2 pounds of ground beef and the flat beater. Fantastic. Had the loaf mixed up in short order with excellent bowl coverage. I enjoyed not having all the meat fat all up in my hands. Used to take 2-3 hand washing to get my hands clean. Did a good job here.

So, to this point all is well. It's just me and my girlfriend, so I am not making doubled up recipes or anything like that. I love German things, only drive German cars and was very interested in the Bosch, I heard it was powerful for things like bread doughs, but _maybe not as great for smaller batches and so forth. I knew I would be making mostly smaller recipes so, I kinda went with, seriously if the KitchenAid Pro 600 is advertised as having "14 cup flour power" and can't make my 4 cup pizza dough, then, just wow, I'd cry.

I kept hearing and keep hearing about "whole wheat" being the test. If there was one thing that was going to make me want the Hobart N50, Viking 1000 watt or Bosch 800 watt it was going to be whole wheat flour.

Tonight I made a batch of pizza dough that was 2 cups all-purpose and 2 cups whole wheat. Hmm. The dough came out fine in the end. But am I still jumping around the kitchen? Not exactly. Whole wheat, even my smallish 4 cup total with 2 cups all-purpose and 2 cups whole wheat had the KitchenAid working a little bit. The mix went a little less well. I added a little water to the sides to get it to pick up and get going, then had to add a little more flour to get it dry up a little bit. Total flour around 4 cups, no more. The bowl popped out once and I held it after that. At one point the dough quit mixing because it was just on the hook and spinning around. I stopped it and pushed the dough off the hook and started it back up again. For a split second after I turned it back on it just went, grr with no movement and then got going again and finished up pretty good. I worked the dough around 6 minutes total and it rose well and behaved well when I was done. I felt all around the housing and it was not even warm, so, definitely not hot. I love machines and I can't say I have been in love with the way this mixer sounds. Loud is one thing, but there is a certain kind of noisyness that seems to be directly related to the gears. I put my ear up to the hosing and can hear the whirring and sometimes it sounds a little quieter and sometimes it sounds a little stressed. It did quiet down a little after the first use, but when mixing my 1/2 wheat flour dough, I can only describe the noise coming from the gears as "kinda stressed." No one is ever going to confuse this thing with a Swiss watch. I could not help but think I had seen a glimpse of the weakness though.

I bought the thing at Bed Bath and Beyond, so I have no illusions of getting commercial quality at a retail price. The Hobart N50 is that mixer and it's $2200. However to this armchair engineer, the KitchenAid Pro Line 7-quart lists at $650 and, to me anyhow, looks to be a bit of a step-up in design. It also comes with a 5 year warranty versus the 1 year warranty on my Professional 600.

I can't say I'm dying to make a 100% whole wheat or rye bread with this thing. But I'm going to, so, we'll see. I'm also not 100% ready to say it's all the machine, I plan to study my technique as well. For the pizza doughs, I did as recommended and used speed 2. I think this is part of the issue. At lower speeds, it's having to work harder. It seems like it would benefit from having a 2-speed transmission or something to get more torque at speeds 1 and 2. I'm no mechanical engineer, but, that is the distinct feeling I got when working the wheat flour. Grrr-wrrrr-wrrrr-grrr-urrrrrrr. Just sounded a little more stressed than I'd like. No where near failure or not going to do the job, but not happy either. Like I said, I drive German cars that favor a good torque down low approach to driving. I recognize and appreciate good grunt down low. Only from reading, it seems like this is what something like the Bosch delivers.

I bought it at Bed Bath and Beyond. They had it priced at $450 over Christmas and I used their 20% off coupon and the until also had a $50 rebate, so I got the price down to about $335 including tax and all that. The Artisan would have only been maybe $30 cheaper (no $50 rebate), and honestly, the spiral dough hook alone would seem to be worth that, much less the extra watts, all-steel gear transmission, soft-start, locked motor protection, bowl-lift design. The Professional 600 also comes with a "hassle free replacement" meaning they will send me another unit and a box to send my old one back in should it come to that. The unit itself is sturdy, it does not "walk" yet in my experience. It's also ridiculously good looking, at least to me. The design is classic, the paint and shine are first rate.

In summary: in limited use, it did great with all-purpose flour pizza dough (the spiral dough hook is great), cookie dough, frosting and a meatloaf. It did so well with the all-purpose flour that I would think I could use a double recipe, around 7-8 cups, well within its claim of 14 cups. It did a great job mixing and working the whole bowl, it's a true mixer in that sense. However, after adding just a couple of cups of wheat flour... I can see what people mean when they talk about wheat flour being a whole other world. If you were going to work a lot a wheat dough, and probably bagel dough... don't take my limited word for it, but I would continue to looking into it. I'll try to make a couple of loaves of whole wheat loaf bread this week and report back.

I'm still satisfied because I think it's going to do what I need it to do. Like I said, I also plan to study my technique and keep reading and learning and making sure that I'm doing all I can to use it correctly. Regardless, this thing has me excited and looking for new way to use it. It's not going to go weeks without use.

I prefer to not bash the KA machine itself. If I have a complaint it's that KA has markets their machines as "professional" which applied to my older KA 6 pro and the newer 600 models is not appropriate. If one understands their real world limitations and used appropriately they are good machines. My wife baked over 100 dozen cookies this past christmas season and has done close to 500 dozen some years and it's about 12 years old. I just recently had to replace gears, and that's only because I've been baking more and mixing stiffer doughs. That's why the Bosch. Will that replace the KA? Not at all. It will be used often for lighter tasks and no doubt last another decade or more.

If we're honest we know we're a heck of a lot harder on mixers than the vast majority of users. How many KA's are used to make bagels and the like? Probably a fraction of a percent. For the rest we just have to use our equipment within it's limits, and that goes for any mixer.

Thanks for the thorough and nicely-written/organized review! Please do update us when you make a 100% whole wheat loaf. I don't hear any annoying noise from my KA600 but I haven't tried whole wheat yet. May try bagels soon just to see what the fuss is about!

Ok, so I haven't used it for anything except to mix soap water but here are some pics... I should say that I did play with the whip, paddle and hook while mixing the soap water.. I think it is safe to assume why the dough hook is not meant to be used at speeds above two... It simply isn't weighted and balanced for high speeds... Just having water in the bowl, I wanted to see what would happen and the mixer started wiggling around... At two there is no movement and everything seemed balanced.. I know with the hall sensor the motor, in theory, should stop before the gear housing could be stressed, so that has to be one of the reasons for the disclaimer. Also, this is THE quietest machine I have ever used.. I made a few videos and when I get them uploaded to YouTube I'll add the links here.

Thnaks for the videos. Soft start seems to work well, and the whole motor/transmission seems to be very quiet.

It appears to be a completely new design though probably using the same gearing. The fan does not appear to be much better but perhaps improved low speed motor efficiency makes up for that to some extent. Can you tell if the fan is driven off the main motor shaft or (unlikely) they have added a separate fan motor?

I would like to see a high resolution photo (on Picasa preferably) of the circuit board and the motor driver if separately mounted.

This is another part that I like. That fan looks small, but it moves air. It move a lot of air when the cover is on. Also, that three wire harness going up by the fan is the Hall sensor. There is a magnet wheel on the shaft of that motor (extended from the motor, so its all the same motor running) that spins and that sensor sees how fast the motor is going. If the speed is reduced too much at one time it shuts the motor off.

Also, this motor is a DC motor, its not a universal motor, it runs a lot cooler. The other KA motors got hot because of the brushes etc, but this is a different design. I know I shouldn't be doing what I have been doing, but I wanted to be able to post answers because I couldn't find any when I was shopping. I let the machine run on 10 for several minutes just whipping the soap foam and the motor didn't get warm to the touch when the cover was off. Given the way the fan is designed, the heat would have built up since I opened the air path up, and and yes there was really no strain on the motor except the whip, but it was running on high.

From the videos I have seen online with the other machines, I am impressed with this mixer. Also keep in mind that mine is a commerical. It has a 2 year warranty for commercial use while the proline has a 5 year warranty... All the other mixers came with 1 year regardless.. That is speaking volumes to me and now I see why.

Doc.Dough when you say you wanna see a pic of the motor driver and circuit board, explain a bit more what I am looking at and I'll try to get the pictures for you. I know this model doesn't use solid state for speed control anymore because you can hear relays kick in and out when you change the speeds.

I have been assuming that the motor has a multi-pole stator and a permanent magnet rotor. This requires some mechanism to excite the stator based on the phase of the rotor. Normally the Hall sensor detects the rotor position (the motor speed is derived from the pulse rate of the sensor output) and the controller manages the stator coil currents and phases to maintain the commanded speed (derived from the position of the speed slider either discretely or continuoulsly), increasing average drive current if the rotor is slow and backing off as it approaches the set point. There are many designs for accomplishing this so I am curious what the design is for this machine.

The photo you put up that was taken from the back shows the edge of the control board but does not contain enough detail to get a handle on the design. A shot at a lower angle that shows the full board may be enough to see what is going on (or not) but will be a hard one to get because you will need good depth of field to get reasonable resolution at both the near edge and the back. Good lighting will be hard. You should not take it apart to photo the trace side of the board but if you can see if it is two sided or perhaps three layers it would be nice to know.

I am on my 2nd machine. The first one burned up within 90 days, although replaced without hassle within a week or so.

I primarily work with yeasted dough. The 1st machine failed while making a 2nd batch of Challah (5 loaves-Friberg, Bo-The Professional Pastry Chef, pp117-118). So now I make a lesser quantity.

Only other issue is the metal clip on the stand used to hold the bowl has apparently become fatigued. You must keep a eye on this or the bowl will come loose and the hook will thrash the dough causing a racket and potential damage. Also, the s/s bowl, while sturdy, will flex from the dough even at 4 loaves.

Still, I recommend this machine- same size in depth as the 5 qt, so fits fine in my cabinet when not in use.- I recommend buying a 2nd s/s/ bowl. My prior attachments work fine (meat grinder, etc.)

I own 2 Hobart 20-quart mixers, 2 Hobart 5-quart mixers and 1 5-quart KitchenAid, roughly 30 years old (so I guess it's from the Hobart era). The principal difference between the Hobart and KitchenAid mixers is that the Hobarts use mechanical transmissions. That is, you must stop the unit in order to change speed and manually shift a lever to one of 3 speeds. If you try to do this with the machine running it would be the equivalent of going from first to second in an old, manual transmission car, without using the clutch. (I must be getting old, some of you probably have no idea what I'm talking about.) The result of having this manual linkage is that the machine actually has more torque at a lower speed. You can mix the stiffest dough in it. Hell, you could mix concrete in the thing if you were so inclined. My old style KitchenAid, on the other hand, has a rheostat that controls speed, just like all previous and subsequent KitchenAids. I use it to mix poolish and other very soft doughs, and non-bread items. It will mix dough, but not with the efficiency of the Hobart. The KitchenAid has started to make a squeal at higher speeds (no, it's never been serviced or repaired since I bought it), so I was intrigued by Costco's sale on the 7-quart unit, which utilizes a DC motor. The intrigue was inspired by the fact that several years ago Hobart stopped manufacturing the gear linkage (at least in their 5-quart model) and went to a DC motor. Those units sold for roughly $2000. I wondered whether it was possible if somehow these Costco units were comparable.

Having read the comments, however, I think I'm going to stay with my old friends, as I'm sensing an appreciation for older machines. I guess I can grease the squeal out of my 30-year-old KitchenAid.

I am an avid(rabid) home bread baker, and over the past 5 years have made the jump to professional baker, (local culinary school graduate --> ACF Certified Pastry Culinarian --> will be attending NECI's Baking and Pastry Arts Bachelors Program in April). I have a sincere love/hate relationship with KitchenAid.

For the typical home baker doing the occasional birthday cake, batch of holiday cookies and a loaf or two of a lighter bread a week, it is a perfectly adequate and acceptable tool. Albeit the high pitched motor whine drive me bonkers.

We personally own a 5 quart Artisan (tilt head), and it has been promised to my oldest daughter when she graduates college and starts a home of her own. For making any standard "Betty Crocker Recipe" it is perfectly capable of providing decades of service. However, doing 2x weekly 900g (flour) basic bread recipe, not so much. This is the third unit we have had in eight years. KitchenAid has been _great_ about replacing it every time I killed it by pushing it too hard, even when clearly out of warranty, and I admittedly pushed it beyond its' documented capabilities.

Three years ago I upgraded to the "Professional HD" 5 Quart lift bowl, model. Making any doubled Betty Crocker Recipe it is perfectly capable of providing decades of service, doing 2x weekly 900g (flour) basic bread recipe, sadly, not so much,. KitchenAid again, has been great about replacing it every time I killed it, even when clearly out of warranty, but at least this time I am staying within its' stated capacities. One motor literally burned up only a week old, second unit stripped gear box, third unit stripped planetary. So it is safe to say I destroyed ever major component of the KitchenAid drive train.

The last warranty replacement they sent me was re-sold for $200, still sealed in the box, to a fellow culinary school graduate who only needs to mix a bunch of cake batter and buttercream frostings and occasionally some fondant in her cake business.

The proceeds from selling it purchased a 1960's KitchenAid K5-A (not even the Solid State model yet) 5 quart lift bowl off of e$ay. Simply stated, the 1960's KitchenAid K5-A (made by Hobart ) 5 quart lift bowl is incomparable in quality and power to any (I'll get to the 7qt pro-line later) "modern" KitchenAid Mixer. Still when mixing a 1K batch of 100% rye sourdough, I turn to my Hobart N-50 which conveniently accepts all the bowl and hooks, paddles, etc. from the KA-5. Trying to compare the Hobart N-50 to the current crop of 5 Quart KitchenAid mixers is like, well, to borrow a quote from Meet Joe Black: "Multiply it by infinity, and take it to the depth of forever, and you will still have barely a glimpse of what I'm talking about." But it is an unruly beast to haul out and move around so it now lives at, and is used at our Church, for producing about 25 loaves of whole wheat bread a week for our "helping hands pantry", assisting members living on fixed incomes.

At work, for everything too impractical to use a 80 Quart floor mixer for, we (extensively) used (2) KitchenAid Pro-Line 7 Quart units at work producing pretty much all the deserts for a private country club. All day every day, whipping fresh cream, crème broulee, chocolate pot a crème, cheese cakes, frostings, cookies, cakes, you name it. Much to my chagrin the only yeasted product I produce is beignets. So no real "heavy duty" use, but in a 10 hour day, it is running at least 5 hours. Is it any better than the residential 5 quart? Absolutely. Is it _truly_ up to the task of supporting a production bake shop, hell no. Not even with two to share the load. We have 6 sets of bowls whips paddles hooks, etc. and two stand mixers. That is how many times it has been replaced in two years. Initially when the first one died and we were down the GM went out and bought a second unit to get us back in business while waiting for the replacement, and it has been a revolving door ever since. But my GM is an idiot and refuses to buy the machine I really need a Globe SP8. As long as KitchenAid keeps replacing, it he's not going to budge (and admit he was wrong, despite the fact that it would have been cheaper in the long run.) And I must admit it is convenient to have lots of spare bowl and such to send to the pot sink and be able to keep working, and/or make up and hold 4 colors of frosting at a time.

Now, the Globe SP8, Oh how I covet that machine!

It is everything my Hobart N-50 is, and it has a timer, and about double (useable) bowl capacity. We have 20 of them in our culinary school and they pretty much ran all day (3, 5 hour classed per day)every weekday, for the past 5 years and were subject to every imaginable manner of abuses at the hands for the students. The _only_ way I have seen one fail is if a student tries to shift it from first to third speed while it is running, or it gets dropped off a bench, which also required having a shattered floor tile cur out and replaced.

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