Comments on: Of Bicyclettes, terroir, typicité: Over on HuffPo…http://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/
wine talk that goes down easyFri, 27 Feb 2015 14:14:07 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=4.1.1By: jacqueline friedrichhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-297117
Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:25:27 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-297117You’re much too shy. But have no fear, you’re not alone.
]]>By: Chris Kissackhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-297102
Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:58:38 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-297102Did I!? I don’t think so…..oh, wait a minute, you must be referring to one of the other ‘Winedoctors’….those that came afterwards!
]]>By: jacqueline friedrichhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-297055
Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:30:49 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-297055Makes one wonder if he has ever set foot in a vineyard. Also,how publishers make their decisions — not to mention Huff Po. I mean, Huff Po is pretty savvy when it comes to politics. How could they be so clueless when it comes to choosing a wine blogger? (I haven’t read his food stuff.)
Nothing. Not anything. Could convince me to read — or even to thumb through — his so-called Burgundy book.
It saddens me to criticize someone so vehemently in a public forum. But he is out there. And I just saw some pot shots that “The Wine Doctor” — NOT to be confused with our DrVino — took at me and my Loire book. So…
]]>By: Claude Kolmhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-297037
Sat, 13 Mar 2010 02:59:32 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-297037Jacquline — If you are on blood pressure medicine, by no means look at Downie’s recent book Food Wine Burgundy. No producers in Volnay or Savigny-les-Beaune worth a mention of visiting. Pernand-Vergelesses is entirely omitted. A few negociants and producers in Beaune itself are mentioned, but somehow Drouhin, Jadot, Bouchard Père & Fils, and Chanson are passed over. But lots of the producers and negociants of the type you’ve always been warned against make it into the book. Maybe he’s only recommending places easy to visit? The Beaune negociants I mentioned above are very easy to visit as are several outstanding producers in Volnay and Savigny. And furthermore, he recommends Domaine Leroy, one of the most difficult appointments to make in Burgundy. Somehow, he manages to discuss Burgundy without any mention of Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, Rousseau, de Vogüé, Ponsot, d’Angerville, Lafon, Ramonet, Domaine Leflaive (Olivier does get mentioned) or a myriad of other historic names. Simply amazing.
]]>By: jacqueline friedrichhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-296966
Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:54:45 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-296966I had never read any of Downie’s pieces before, never even heard of him. A friend recommended the column — favorably! I’m already taking medicine for high blood pressure so I may spare myself from reading other missives by M. Downie — who may, for all I know, be a very nice guy.
That said, he should not be writing about wine.
I could have taken that piece apart sentence by sentence, writing an essay on each mistake/misconception.
And, Claude, I could take your last post apart sentence by sentence and write an essay in wholehearted agreement with every point you make!
I’m still scratching my head over the garbled “logic” in Downie’s piece.
]]>By: Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Reviewhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-296957
Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:40:38 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-296957I should have looked at the HuffPo piece first. Had I known that it was written by David Downie . . . . I won’t even begin to get into a discussion here of how really off base Mr. Downie is on wine matters (he seems to be non-offensive on food), almost as though he were deliberately trying to mislead. But based on what else I’ve seen that he’s written (e.g., in the HuffPo piece, yes, Cluny was important, but no mention of the Cistercians?), his view of wine and underlying facts is more off base than anyone else I can think of (and that’s saying a lot). The discussion of terroir is totally incomprehensible.

As to other questions above, yes, no specific mention of appellation, but how does he get from Pinot Noir to terroir? The logic (or rather, lack of it) is mind-boggling.

]]>By: jacqueline friedrichhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-296948
Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:54:18 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-296948That’s what I’d like to know. His reasoning, if you can call it that, seems really garbled. He starts off talking about Pinot Noir vs. Faux Pinot Noir but connects that to the fact that the sainted Pinot Noir (and heaven knows I love Pinot Noir) is planted in the Languedoc, not that the wines labeled “Pinot Noir” VdP d’Oc were made of other grape varieties — which is the basis of the fraud prosecution. Read the piece and tell me what you think.
]]>By: Jasperhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-296939
Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:06:21 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-296939Where did the author of the HuffPo piece claim that Pinot Noir was an appellation?
]]>By: poomkhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-296931
Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:42:25 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-296931Oops! Sorry.

Zeller Schwarze Katz (with big K)

]]>By: poomkhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-296930
Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:40:32 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-296930Weber Zeller Schwarze katz (Weber Zeller Black Cat)
]]>By: jacqueline friedrichhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-296918
Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:14:43 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-296918In response to Claude Kolm: I don’t disagree with what you say.I was responding to a very specific article. Take a look at the piece on Huff Po. It will probably aggravate you as much as it did me.
I think you’ll understand why my argument was so limited — or limited to what I felt were some of the more flagrant misconceptions of the author.
]]>By: Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Reviewhttp://www.drvino.com/2010/03/10/terroir-typicite-friedrich-downie/#comment-296911
Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:18:49 +0000http://www.drvino.com/?p=6282#comment-296911“IMHO terroir applies to that which is immutable: the soils, the subsoils, the elevation, the exposition, the opening of the countryside, the microclimate. While finding the right grape variety for a specific place is important, it is not the most important factor: terroir is. Plant Sauvignon Blanc in a Grand Cru vineyard of Chablis, treat it well, and you’ll have a great white wine. [In the name of typicité, such a practice is not allowed by the appellation. -Ed.]”

There are various definitions of terrior, but for the sake of this discussion, I will take the parameters identified in the initial sentence quoted above. I will also make another assumption: there is nothing peculiar to terroir in France compared to terroir in Germany and in Italy.

There is limited ability to compare different grapes in the same grand terroir in France, but it is not completely excluded. Many vineyards in Burgundy permit both Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, e.g., Musigny, Corton, Beaune, Meursault, Chassagne-Montrachet, Savigny-les-Beaune, Pernand-Vergelesses, Nuits-St-Georges, Morey-St-Denis, etc. (And even where officially one grape is permitted, e.g. Vosne-Romanée can only be Pinot Noir, but in fact there exists “white Vosne-Romanée” that is labelled “Bourgogne.” With sufficient experience, one sees why certain soils are planted in one grape and other soils in the others. Occasionally, one can even see it quite directly, as when de Montille recently stopped producing Pinot Noir in Corton and grafted the vines over to Chardonnay to make Corton-Charlemagne.

You can also make a good comparison at Hermitage where white grapes and red grapes can be planted, and it is not the same lieux-dits at Hermitage that favor both.

Still staying in France, in Alsace, you can compare the four noble grapes (Riesling, Pinot Gris, Gewürztraminer, and Muscat) in the same vineyard. In some cases, all four succeed well, in some cases one or more do not do as well as others and one can find “lesser terroirs” that will actually yield a better wine for that grape.

But as stated above, in France, the comparisons are relatively limited. Not so in Germany where, depending where you are in Germany, you may find more than one of Riesling, Silvaner, Gewürztraminer, Scheurebe, Weissburgunder (Pinot Blanc), Grauburgunder (Pinot Gris) Spätburgunder (Pinot Noir), Lemberger, and perhaps other grapes grown in grand cru vineyards. They don’t all make great wines, regardless of the grape just because they are in a grand cru vineyard.

Similarly, in Italy, the vineyards that are most famous for Barolo and Barbaresco from the Nebbiolo grape don’t necessarily make great wines from Barbera or Dolcetto or even the best examples of Barbera or Dolcetto.

In short, I take issue with Ms. Friedrich based on the evidence cited above.