Posted
by
CmdrTacoon Monday January 17, 2011 @12:47PM
from the skip-a-few dept.

An anonymous reader writes "The release of iOS 4.3 beta for developers has revealed updates to gesture-based navigation, AirPlay and Personal Hot Spot in the next edition of iPad and iPhone. However, not all changes are UI-related; it is reported that Apple is due to add an ARM Cortex A8 processor to its iPhone 5. Apple Daily, a Hong Kong-based newspaper, reported that Apple's iPhone 5 will be powered by a dual core processor with SGX543 graphics. It is reported that Apple is in contact with a Taiwanese component maker for the A8 SoC. Currently Apple uses a custom made A4 SoC in its iPad and iPhone 4 and uses SGX535 graphics and video support."

Rather than paying with dollars, iPhone 5 owners will have to pay with some of their own life energy. Every iPhone 5 owner will be required to give up one hour of their life. This way, with every 24 sold, Steve Jobs lives another day. Every million devices sold will grant Steve Jobs slightly more than an extra century of life.

I've just sucked one year of your life away. I might one day go as high as five, but I really don't know what that would do to you. So, let's just start with what we have. What did this do to you? Tell me. And remember, this is for posterity so be honest. How do you feel?

Uh, the A8 is ARM's old smartphone core. Putting two of them in a package is a little bit clever because, unlike the A9 that everyone else's next generation products are using, the A8 isn't actually designed for multicore applications (the A9 scales to 4 cores).

Uh, the A8 is ARM's old smartphone core. Putting two of them in a package is a little bit clever because, unlike the A9 that everyone else's next generation products are using, the A8 isn't actually designed for multicore applications (the A9 scales to 4 cores).

The article was translated a bit poorly. A8 means "Apple's new name for their processor", not "Cortex A8 architecture".

Did you not read TFS? Apple is adding AirPlay and Personal Hot Spot! (Not that they need to really add personal hotspot, every apple fanboi would get a personal hotspot if apple released a line of napkins).

Look, it doesn't matter how crappy the actual hardware is, it's from Apple. Apple will make it shiny.

In the interests of full disclosure, I have no idea what AirPlay or Personal HotSpot are, nor do I care, but I will hazard a guess they are old technology for everyone else...

This is correct. Apple's new processor will be named A5 and is a multi-code Cortex A9 processer. It will reportedly have dual-core SGX543 graphics, up from the A4's single SGX535 GPU, which means that in theory you could do 1080p on the device no problems at all. They are also replacing the Infineon chipset with a Qualcomm chipset that does both CDMA/GSM/UMTS.

Qualcomm recently demoed an upcoming SoC based on a dual-core Cortex-A9 that was putting out 1080p 3D video. I think they're planning on 1.2GHz cores, which can vary the clockrate, voltage, or just turn off a core entirely, as needed. Combine that with a smaller process, and that is likely to be VERY power efficient. EVO 2, please *grasping hands*. 2H2011 is going to be a very fun time for smartphone and tablet enthusiasts. I'm already really tired of the whole tablet craze, though. For more info on the upc

Snapdragon Platform. With the Snapdragon application processor core, dubbed Scorpion, is Qualcomm's own design. It has many features similar to those of the ARM Cortex-A8 core and it is based on the ARM v7 instruction set, but theoretically has much higher performance for multimedia-related SIMD operations.

A very heavily modified A8. Qualcomm licensed the A8, but then ripped out the floating point pipeline and replaced it with something better, tweaked the rest of the pipeline in a few places and branded it Scorpion. It generally ships in their Snapdragon SoC. It's somewhere between the A8 and A9 in performance for most workloads.

ARM provides a variety of different licenses. The cheapest just let you take their core, pop it in the middle of a chip and put other cores around out (or fab it by itself). The most expensive ones give you all of the designs and the right to modify them in any way you like. Qualcomm is one of the few companies with the latter kind.

Most SoC makers get the cheaper ones and differentiate their products by adding different components to the ARM core. For example, the TI OMAP series comes with a TI DSP that provides a lot more performance (and a huge amount more performance-per-Watt) for a lot of media decoding tasks, nVidia's Tegra series comes with an nVidia GPU.

Qualcomm modifies the ARM core itself, which means that it takes them longer to get to market but gives better performance. It also has the effect that they are out of phase with the rest of the market. Everyone else was shipping A8s before the Snapdragon was out, but then Snapdragon (which outperforms the A8) came out before anyone was shipping A9 cores. They will probably do something similar with the A9 and bring their tweaked version to market just as the A9 is starting to show its age.

The other interesting company is Marvell. They have a license from ARM that allows them to modify ARM chips or produce their own independently designed ARM-compatible chips. They bought the XScale line from Intel, which is based on the StrongARM design from Digital. They make the chips in the SheevaPlug and similar systems, which are not ARM designs.

There are quite a few companies with the ARM Architecture license. It was needed by anyone delivering an A8 at 1GHz, since that's beyond the point of ARM's certification. Apple has an Architecture license, though they probably didn't need it yet, since all their stuff so far is just stripped down versions of Samsung SOCs. The shopping for a foundry in Taiwan might be true, though... with Samsung emerging as a big player in both smartphone and tablet, Apple might be getting a little nervous about their suppl

I don't know why Apple does this. Just to confuse the market and make it seem like Apple has some special sauce whereas the reality is that Apple uses the same ARM designs as everybody else, running at the same silicons and Apples "customizations" are really minor hacks to the peripheral support. To me, this comes across as dishonest, and I wonder why they do it especially considering many people will perceive the next iphone as underpowered because of what seems to be an ARM chip from the previous genera

Um, you do realize the entire article is a rumor speculating on products that Apple might launch sometime in the future and how Apple will name said products. Apple may call it the A8 or they may call it the A5. Heck it might even be the A4++Ox. We don't know until Apple makes some sort of announcement.

Apple is just returning to its roots with the web 2.0 generation falling for a "Motorola and hypercard colour/Netwon" in their hands.
Its not about the chip really, its about control of the OS, energy use and upgrade cycle. Apple can plot and predict the supply over years and under clock/lock out the hardware to ensure you will 'need' the next hardware device. Why sell one device that will last when they can ensure you feel the need to buy two in the same time period.

The Qualcomm Snapdragon is a (very) heavily modified A8. Qualcomm has one of the most expensive ARM licenses, which allows them to extensively modify the cores, rather than just stamp them into SoCs with other stuff.

Basically, this article is filled with flawed writing based on the author's almost total ignorance of the subject. They know just enough, however, to be completely and totally wrong.

Yes, I think I lost 5 IQ points from reading TFA. That'll teach me to click on links in/. stories.

The Qualcomm Snapdragon is a (very) heavily modified A8. Qualcomm has one of the most expensive ARM licenses, which allows them to extensively modify the cores, rather than just stamp them into SoCs with other stuff.

Samsung might have one too - their Cortex A8's were modified by that company Apple acquired as well, unless the A8 licensing allows minor modifications. Still, the A8 core used by Apple and Samsung aren't stock - I think the Apple one is actually a bit more modified as well.

(Fun fact - Apple was one of the original ARM investors (back when it was Acorn RISC Machines) and pretty much made it popular with Newton...)

The Newton wasn't popular, but it made the ARM chips popular for other mobile devices. Having Acorn as a customer let them get the volumes up enough to get the economies of scale that they needed, and the Newton demonstrated that you could put a reasonable amount of CPU power in a handheld without needing a huge battery (except to drive the Newton's huge screen).

No, I meant Acorn. They did very well in the UK schools market and quite well in the UK home market, which got ARM's volumes up, but they had almost no international sales so they were basically invisible to US (or even EU) corporations looking for chips for handheld computers.

It's hard to beleive Apple would have invested back in 1989 or thereabouts if ARM hadn't gained a notable place in the market already.

ARM had almost no place in the market back then at all. The ARM2 was the existing chip back then, and it wasn't very impressive (although it was low power). ARM was created as a joint spin-out from three companies - Acorn and Apple

Is he still stupid if he wrote the article with the assumption that the information he was given was correct? What if the engineer he talked to on the phone gave him incorrect information for whatever reason? How does he know it's not correct? Is that a sign of stupidity?

Apple revealed its new iPhone 5 to the press. The iPhone 5 will feature two new A8 processors, unlike the iPhone 4, which used a single A4 processor. Basic understanding of the DIN A norm tells us that this means the iPhone 5's processors will be much smaller, at a mere 39 square centimeters each compared to the 625 square centimeter processor of its predecessor.

The iPhone 5 will also use sixteen Qualcomm SGX543 graphics cards, seamlessly converting all running applications to multithreads. With 35 million polygons times 1 billion pixels, the SGX543 can render video and games at resolutions of 40000x25000, upstaging current Motorola devices that merely support 1080x1728. This will allow the iPhone 5 to natively support HDMI, DisplayPort and SCART display technologies.

Also, Engadget reported that the next edition of iPad and iPhone will run on A9 multi-core chips designed by Qualcomm.

For me here's where it goes from educated guess to rampant, wild speculation without any logic. Most likely Qualcomm will not be designing any chip for Apple. Apple has acquired both Intrinsity [wikipedia.org] and PA Semi [wikipedia.org] in the last 2 years to do their chip design. PA Semi for general ARM design and Intrinsity specifically for mobile ARM. Intrinsity did a great deal of their A4 design then Apple acquired them. For the next chip, Apple is going to abandon the company they just bought? Doesn't make a whole lot of sens

I still have yet to understand what's so amazing about iOS, from a GUI point of view. It's incredibly sparse and lacking in workflow functionality. The steps you have to take when you get an email or a text message, for example, are far more convoluted than on Android (in which you pull down the notification bar (regardless of what you're doing), tap the email/text, read it, then just hit the back arrow twice to immediately go back to what you were doing.

This is just one such example. iOS seems like it functions off a central core with a bunch of solitary roads going outward. Android, however, seems like it has the same layout, but each of the "roads" are interconnected.

Sure, you'll get where you want to go with iOS, but you have to get there in a specific way, whereas with Android you have much more navigational freedom. iOs is Good Enough®, but I still don't see how people applaud it so loudly when it isn't conducive to non-centralized navigation. Let's face it, the homescreen looks like an Android app drawer...

"I still have yet to understand what's so amazing about iOS, from a GUI point of view. It's incredibly sparse and lacking in workflow functionality. The steps you have to take when you get an email or a text message, for example, are far more convoluted than on Android (in which you pull down the notification bar (regardless of what you're doing), tap the email/text, read it, then just hit the back arrow twice to immediately go back to what you were doing."

If you have pop-ups enabled, it appears in the middle of your screen as it happens. You click on the pop-up to get to the message. Going back is a bit more convoluted. You have to tap the home button twice to bring up the list of running applications, then tap the app you were in to go back. It's not bad, though the double-tap of the home button for multitasking is not that intuitive.

Remember, though, that Android and other platforms are building from what was learned on iOS. The closest thing to an iOS type operating system was Palm, and there are many reasons why that was light years different. Don't get me started on the royal crap that was smartphones at the time of the iPhone launch.

It's a bit like The Matrix. If you go back and re-watch it now, you have to wonder what was so special about it. "They're doing eastern mysticism, hong-kong kung-fu wirework, and slow-mo fight scenes. So what? Every movie does that." Well yes, every movie does that because they're all based on The Matrix. Similarly, there are several good portable smartphone operating system choices out there, which all do certain things better than iOS. They all also happen to exist because they copied iOS. And then they built out, did some things better, and became their own animals. But credit where credit is due: nobody was copying Windows Mobile 6. Everyone built from the basis established in iOS.

"If you have pop-ups enabled, it appears in the middle of your screen as it happens. You click on the pop-up to get to the message. Going back is a bit more convoluted. You have to tap the home button twice to bring up the list of running applications, then tap the app you were in to go back. It's not bad, though the double-tap of the home button for multitasking is not that intuitive."

Ouch. And what happens if you don't have popups enabled? Just a status bar notification and the usual ringtone/vibrate?

PlayerPro, my music player, for instance, has an on-screen back button (same place as on iOS usually), and the hardware back button takes you out of the app instead of just to the last view/activity/whatever. That reminds me, I have to go file a bug report/complaint about that:p

I beg to differ. The Winamp app for Android is horrid... and I say that as someone who's been using Winamp since the early 2.x days.

1. It's basically just a skin on top of the default Android playback system, and doesn't offer any additional features other than Shoutcast.2. The wireless sync is buggy and doesn't work properly 80% of the time. Wireless device discovery is completely fucked up and takes a lot of praying and swearing to get Winamp to recognize the device...3. The latest Winamp (on Windows) ver

Actually, Google purchased the Android OS project in 2005, two years before Apple even announced they were working on the iPhone. I highly doubt that the notification bar or the pop-ups for text messages were added after the release of the iPhone. Further, because the Android OS is so open, you can have competing text messaging software with the stock Android software that provides even better functionality than that which is built in (Handcent, for example).

> Actually, Google purchased the Android OS project in 2005, two> years before Apple even announced they were working on the> iPhone. I highly doubt that the notification bar or the pop-ups> for text messages were added after the release of the iPhone.

Ah, you do not know your history. Yes, Android had been around for a while, but before January 2007, it was nothing more than a BlackBerry clone.http://www.google.com/images?q=android+prototypes [google.com] Granted, that page will have some new models mixed in,

Yea, it's kind of weird. You'll be using an app and this message will pop up blocking the entire screen. And you can't get back to what you were in the middle of till you acknowledge the pop-up. After you've dealt with the pop up you can resume what you just got interrupted from doing. Then when you exit the app you were in you have to remember all the texts/emails/etc that popped up and interrupted what you were previously working on. Then you have to click into each app that alerted you and find who &

I still have yet to understand what's so amazing about iOS, from a GUI point of view. It's incredibly sparse and lacking in workflow functionality.

Looks like you answered your own question.

Geeks want everything connected in myriad ways so we can be as efficient as possible, but that extra complexity comes at a cost: you have to learn all those pathways in order to use them, and in some cases.. to avoid accidentally using them.

There is a large segment of the population that is happy with a swiss army knife that they can understand all the features of fairly quickly, and don't have to worry about the magnifying glass popping out of the bottle bottle ope

I still have yet to understand what's so amazing about iOS, from a GUI point of view.

It's very smooth and almost never stutters or freezes - at least compared to Android, which does that all the time. For touch UI, this is especially annoying, since it means that the UI is out of sync with your gestures.

You don't have to understand it. It's not like there's a problem with people who aren't you liking things you don't like, is there? And it's not like you're the genius to end all geniuses. I don't need to ask there, I've read enough of your posts.

No. The problem is with the Big Lie that Apple actually knows anything about usability or will necessarily create a better UI just because it's Apple and it's magical.

Quite often they ignore trivial but interesting use cases and unnecessarily cripple available options.

Then fanboys crow about how this is "doing a few things well". No. It's just doing too few things to be really useful.

The sort of consumers willing to subject themselves to MS-DOS in another decade just are too oblivious to notice.

'A4' is Apple's name for a chip based on ARMs Cortex A8 architecture. The next chip will probably be called 'A5', and will probably be based on Cortex A9. A4/A5 and A8/A9 are two seperate nomenclatures.

Also, to 'flaunt' means to

display something ostentatiously, esp. in order to provoke envy or admiration

Even more confusingly, the Cortex A5 is ARM's ultra-cheap line of processors aimed at not-so-smary phones. I'm looking forward to Apple hyping the A5 and Nokia putting a sticker on their bottom-of-the-range phones saying 'A5 inside' or similar.

Here's to hoping that Apple puts a more powerful processor in the second iPad than they do in the 5th iPhone. I realize they likely had the same processor in the iPad/iPhone 4 just to keep things simple, but it seemed really strange to me that a device with a bigger screen (and marginally larger resolution) had the same CPU in it as the tiny version.

Here's to hoping that Apple puts a more powerful processor in the second iPad than they do in the 5th iPhone. I realize they likely had the same processor in the iPad/iPhone 4 just to keep things simple, but it seemed really strange to me that a device with a bigger screen (and marginally larger resolution) had the same CPU in it as the tiny version.

Bigger AND marginally larger resolution? So if the iPad had a 1024x768 screen but a 12" screen, that would necessitate a more powerful CPU than a 10" version at 1024x768?

but does it need it?I mean really what does the ipad need more CPU power for than the iPhone? The resolution is the same so the graphics performance requirements are the same. I guess if you want to put more demanding apps on the ipad than the iphone maybe it would useful but on the whole I do not see a big drive need for more CPU power in the iPad over the iPhone.

No, but again...compare a 10" netbook to a 16" laptop (the difference in screen size between an iPad and an iPhone is slightly over 6 inches.) Would you expect a 16" laptop to have the same power as a 10" netbook?

I mean really what does the ipad need more CPU power for than the iPhone? The resolution is the same so the graphics performance requirements are the same. I guess if you want to put more demanding apps on the ipad than the iphone maybe it would useful but on the whole I do not see a big drive need for more CPU power in the iPad over the iPhone.

So...the people calling the iPad just a big iPod Touch are right, then?

No I do not think that it is wise to equate physical size with power. Resolution means a lot more. I have seen lots of notebooks with big screens with low resolution. They will require less GPU/CPU performance than a smaller high resolution screen will.Think of it this way. Does your desktop require more performance to drive a video game on a 22" 1080p display or a 60" 1080p display.

No. I was referring to the fact that, generally, you expect a 10" device to have more computing power than a 3.5" device.

Did I really have to explain that?

I guess you don't HAVE to explain anything, but based on all the replies I just read besides mine, yeah, maybe you could have.

Besides, I think you're forgetting that when the iPad came out, it DID have a faster processor than the iPhone. That the iPhone 4 came out later, is a separate issue. If the iPad 2 still has the SAME processor, then you might have an argument.

Besides, I think you're forgetting that when the iPad came out, it DID have a faster processor than the iPhone.

True, but then you're comparing a brand-new product to what was at the time almost a year old....

Yes, that's true. I don't get your point, but it is true, that when the iPad came out it was newer then the (then top of the line) iPhone 3GS, and if you were to compare them, you'd find vastly improved hardware in the iPad.

I think it's pretty clear I have no idea what your argument is anymore.

I think it's pretty clear I have no idea what your argument is anymore.

The iPhone is a PHONE. The iPad is a TABLET. You expect a phone and a tablet to have the same computing power?

That's my point.

That's the point you had hoped to make. I'm not really sure you've done that. You see, when the iPad came out it had MORE power than the iPhone. Then, a new iPhone came out, and took advantage of the power saving innovations of the iPad's chip, and caught up... no, leapfrogged it by doubling the memory and upping the overall screen resolution as well.

Now, the iPad's refresh is approaching, and all the speculation is pointing to a multi-core CPU, more memory, an SD slot, and perhaps a doubling of the over

It had more power than a one-year old device, which is not what my original post is about.

Then, a new iPhone came out

Yeah, a couple of months later...meaning the internal architecture had long since been decided upon before the iPad was released.

You expect a phone to not advance technologically because a tablet exists? Perhaps you're aware that over the last almost one year period Apple's been developing the next iPad, which will surely feature improved specs versus the old one. At the same time, they continue to work on newer iPhones, no doubt guaranteeing the same thing on that side.

No, I expect a tablet to be more powerful than a phone released within the same time frame and as part of the same product line. I'm not talking about cross-generation comparisons, I'm talking about same-generation comparisons. This is the key thing that people seem to

I'm comparing a PHONE and a TABLET, and the fact that the tablet has no performance advantage over the same-generation phone from the same company in the same product line. What was so hard for people to understand about this?

I'm sorry if I seem rude, I just didn't think I'd have to spell things out like this on a tech-oriented website. That's a bit ridiculous.

The Samsung Galaxy S (phone), released early last year has a 1GHz A8 based processor with 384mb RAM, and PowerVR SGX540 GPU.

The Samsung Galaxy Tab (tablet) is radically more advanced, in that rather than a 1GHz Cortex A8 with PowerVR SGX540 and 384mb of RAM, it adds... 512mb of RAM.

Perhaps your expectations are off. Seems to be the smartphone and tablet markets are using the latest possible technology that compromises between power and battery life, and are both about equally cutting edge in terms of

I think it's pretty clear I have no idea what your argument is anymore.

The iPhone is a PHONE. The iPad is a TABLET. You expect a phone and a tablet to have the same computing power?

That's my point.

Why not? We have this thing in electronics call minaturization. Stuff gets smaller. So the difference in volume between a phone and a "tablet" might not make any difference to the relevant components. Since a phone is the "device of convenience" it's far more likely to be actually used. So more power in the phone will be generally more useful.

You might expect that - I certainly don't. The devices with the most computing power tend to have no screens at all.

OK, but we're talking about all-inclusive devices that function completely on their own...not desktop parts.

Do automatically think a laptop with a smaller screen has less computing power than one with a larger screen? Really?

If the difference is as drastic as 6+ inches (the difference between an iPad and iPhone...6.2, if you want to be exact), then yes: I generally expect a 16 inch laptop to have more power than a 10 inch netbook.

I've got a 20 inch monitor at home does that make my several year old iMac totally bad ass from a computing power stand point?

I'm comparing two products from the same company that run the same operating system and are, for all intents and purposes, a part of the same product line. I'm NOT saying this comparison extends to all aspects of the computing world, nor did I imply it.

So, does "having" this processor mean it is going to be "flaunted". "Flaunt" has a kind of negative connotation of waving something around to be sure everybody can see it.

Maybe words like "have", "sport", "use", "be built with", or "ship with" might be more applicable.

TFA doesn't have the word "flaunt" in it. Maybe a little less editorializing in the headlines would be good here. In this case, it's just plain not applicable -- no more than my desktop machine is "flaunting" it's quad-c

My first impression, too. My mind's eye pictured a lowered iPhone with the A8 mounted on the outside, spinner rims, ground effect lighting, and an airbrushed graphic of a busty chica in a bikini sporting a Bob Dobbs tattoo on her navel.

You really have to hand it to Apple: Very few other companies garner headlines for what amounts to "Pre-release software build indicates that version N+1 of product X will incorporate version N+1 of the assorted off-the-shelf hardware that went into version N".

Seriously. There is a reasonably limited set of companies with performance-oriented ARM SoC designs. There is a similarly fairly limited set of GPU options for power constrained scenarios. Shockingly enough, Apple(just like everybody else) is pretty much going to combine the most recent one of each that they can shoehorn into their design and production process and go from there.

In other news, the next Mac Pro will probably have a newly released Xeon in it...

You really have to hand it to Apple: Very few other companies garner headlines for what amounts to "Pre-release software build indicates that version N+1 of product X will incorporate version N+1 of the assorted off-the-shelf hardware that went into version N".

Except that Apple has nothing to do with the articles. Their typical response to questions about their future products has always been: "We do not comment about future products." These articles comes from every "expert" on the web making speculation on what Apple will do next in order to get more clicks.

That is why Apple is impressive: anybody can(and many do) kick out press releases about whatever humdrum marchitecture or rebranding initiative they are vomiting on the public today; but Apple has an RDF so strong that there is an entire industry of "analyst" hacks who do that for them, entirely voluntarily...

I do not think you know what RDF [wikipedia.org] is. RDF is not web analysts speculating on Apple's next product. That is a byproduct of Apple's very guarded disclosures about their upcoming products. Apple is not alone in this regard. When Alan Greenspan was chairman of the Federal Reserve, financial analysts hinged on his every word and nuance because he rarely telegraphed his moves concerning the Fed. When he said some markets might show "irrational exuberance", markets around the world slumped based on his use of

Unless the package says "Now with A8 Processor!" or something similar, it's not flaunting the A8. Given Apple's general refusal to put any kind of hardware specs they can avoid on packaging for these devices, it seems very, very, unlikely that they will "flaunt" anything so meaningless to the average reader.