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Topic: The New Gun Free Australia. (Read 8995 times)

Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts... From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia

Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under. It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent, Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)! In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not! and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed. There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly.

Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in "successfully ridding Australian society of guns." You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.

The Australian experience proves it. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note Americans, before it's too late!

FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST. [ I DID ] DON'T BE A MEMBER OF THE SILENT MAJORITY. BE OF THE VOCAL MINORITY WHO WON'T LET THIS HAPPEN IN THE U.S.A

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"Lurch my good man,â€¦what did you mean when you said just now that 'You've got better things to do than run my petty little errands'â€¦â€¦.?"

What grot, did you check the figures before you posted that? Heres an alternative.

"Sharp Drop in Gun Crime Follows Tough Australian Firearm Laws"

Latest official data from Australia shows a marked reduction in gun-related crime and injury following recent restrictions on the private ownership of firearms.

Twelve days after 35 people were shot dead by a single gunman in Tasmania, Australia's state and federal governments agreed to enact wide-ranging new gun control laws to curb firearm-related death and injury. Between July 1996 and August 1998, the new restrictions were brought into force. Since that time, key indicators for gun-related death and crime have shown encouraging results.

Firearm-Related Homicide

"There was a decrease of almost 30% in the number of homicides by firearms from 1997 to 1998."

Homicide by Any Method

The overall rate of homicide in Australia has also dropped to its lowest point since 1989 (National Homicide Monitoring Program, 1997-98 data). It remains one-fourth the homicide rate in the USA.

The Institute of Criminology report Australian Crime - Facts and Figures 1999 includes 1998 homicide data showing "a 9% decrease from the rate in 1997." This is the period in which most of the country's new gun laws came into force.

Its well worth consulting "break the chain" a website dedicated to "stop Junk email and misinformation" on these topics before posting them.

I know America loves its guns but are you seriously telling me, in light of the not infrequent cases of even young children killing each other with firearms that they "found" in their parents bedside table etc, that you truly believe the liberal gun laws should not be tighened? Even if you strongly believe in choice you can not, surely, have any reservations about all guns being kept in locked cabinets to stop young children/teenagers accessing such items.

When I was growing up my faether had a pistol in his dresser.I knew it was there and I knew it was dangerous. I also knew that my father would kill me if I touched it. I never did

When I was old enough to understand gun safety was explained to me.And to this day I abide by what I was taught.

We here in America don't "love our guns"We love our rights as defined by the constitution

As for the "not infrequent cases of even young children killing each other with firearms that they "found" in their parents bedside table etc"

Provide stats on that - The children that accidently hurt themselves or each other are ones that have no experience of advice to deal with a new thing in their lives so they don't know what to do.Me Thinks you are watching too much rosie o'donnell

And if I took you shooting I think you might enjoy it more than you's care to admit. It is a lot of fun.

Here is a quote from gunlaws.com

'"How many gun laws do we have," is a subtly biased question, of the type, "are you still beating your wife?". It implies that there is a "correct" or "best" number of gun laws, and asks, also implicitly, are there enough gun laws. This leads to a no-win debate on whether there are enough or not.

Everything criminal about guns is already illegal.

There are more laws than a person can reasonably be expected to remember, and they are growing annually.

There are countless legal traps for the unwary. Even for the wary.

Because criminal activity is already outlawed, new laws tend to affect only honest individuals and not criminals, and so of course people object to them.

The idea of "gun control law" has come to mean "infringement law," a rule that incrementally disarms a civilian, and has little or no bearing on crime control, which is supposed to be the goal. Infringement laws are illegal, and it's right for decent people to object to them and to the people who promote them.

If the goal of the laws is to outlaw crime, then there are enough, because all these luridly promoted acts of infamy involve many laws being violently broken (look at the long list we published for Columbine, at gunlaws.com). Ask if there is sufficient "crime" control, and everyone seems to agree there is not."

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"Lurch my good man,â€¦what did you mean when you said just now that 'You've got better things to do than run my petty little errands'â€¦â€¦.?"

The Eddie Eagle GunSafeÂ® Program, NRA's groundbreaking gun accident prevention program for children in pre-K through the third grades, has achieved a new milestone, reaching 18 million children in all 50 states, Canada, and Puerto Rico.Created by past NRA President Marion P. Hammer, in consultation with child psychologists, elementary schoolteachers, and law enforcement officers, the program gives children a simple, effective action to take should they encounter a firearm in an unsupervised situation: "If you see a gun, STOP! Don't Touch. Leave the Area. Tell an Adult."

Over the years, the program has been praised by numerous groups and elected officials, including the National Safety Council, the U.S. Department of Justice, and 24 state governors. When the program was formally endorsed by the National Sheriffs' Association in 2002, Sheriff John Cary Bittick, president of the group at the time, said, "We are proud to partner with the National Rifle Association on this very important issue, and we would like to express our full support for this program. The safety of our nation's children is of paramount concern and I can think of no better way to provide them with knowledge about firearm safety than through the Eddie Eagle GunSafeÂ® Program. This program, which has proven to be most effective, simply teaches children not to touch firearms and to tell adults immediately if they should come into contact with a firearm of any kind."

NRA also regularly receives letters from parents whose children have encountered a firearm, but, because of what they learned in Eddie Eagle, avoided accidents. In fact, fatal firearm accidents in the Eddie Eagle age group have been reduced more than two-thirds since the inception of the program, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. NRA feels that gun accident prevention programs such as Eddie Eagle are a significant factor in that decline.

Commenting on the program she created, past NRA President Marion P. Hammer said, "The NRA is committed to helping keep America's children safe. This program also instills in our youth the important values of leadership, discipline, and personal responsibility that will help our children throughout their lives. It is imperative that all parents be responsible for teaching good judgment and gun safety to their children," said Ms. Hammer.

Funds raised through Friends of NRA, and distributed through The NRA Foundation, enable budget-strapped schools and police departments to teach the program at minimal or no cost. The NRA encourages citizens nationwide to participate in heightening gun accident prevention awareness within their local communities. Schools, law enforcement agencies, civic groups, and others interested in more information about The Eddie Eagle GunSafeÂ® Program should call the Eddie EagleÂ® Department at (800) 231-0752 or visit the website at www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie.

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"Lurch my good man,â€¦what did you mean when you said just now that 'You've got better things to do than run my petty little errands'â€¦â€¦.?"

My son, now eleven, knew at the age of two what was a real gun and what was a toy, and he would get away from the real ones as fast as he could and would tell an adult about the gun. There are a few guns in this house hold.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Sounds so clear doesn't it?

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:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

I can find some more if you'd like, but I'm a busy person. However if you think my statement is without evidence, I'll make the effort.

Quote from: Jerrymac

This is pretty recent data where asleitch's is from 1999;

I read it that the entire thing was based on the same evidence. Did I miss something? The way I read it was that, Ed Chenel has selectively used some statistics, and not provided actual numbers, nor was their any reference. E.g. When the number of murders in a county of (say) 50 million rises from 7 to 14, that appears as a 100% rise, however this is not a quantifiable result as the numbers are too low. You could have had a single person going on the rampage, or a particularly savage gang land fued.

Quote from: BigRog

And if I took you shooting I think you might enjoy it more than you's care to admit. It is a lot of fun.

Thanks, but I come from a farming family and shooting and fishing are pastimes I've enjoyed in the past. I don't have any moral objection with shooting, or fishing, and yes, it is enjoyable, I'm just surprised people find a need to have handguns in their house, not in a locked cabinet, or with strict licences.

Quote from: BigRog

In fact, fatal firearm accidents in the Eddie Eagle age group have been reduced more than two-thirds since the inception of the program, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. NRA feels that gun accident prevention programs such as Eddie Eagle are a significant factor in that decline.

I think thats amazing, I mean, they are seriously suggesting its good that fatal accidents have reduced by two thirds - what about the 1/3 left who loose their life due to a firearm. Thats a gross statistic.

Quote from: the american constitution

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

What? So if they changed the wording you'd all be happy? Just becuase some defined something in law hundreds (or even the same applies to recent laws etc) of years ago doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed. Just becuase something is defined in a constitution doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it wrong either. (so don't flame me here). A constitution should define the will/rights of a nation. That is something that changes over a long period.

When that was written, they surely hadn't imagined all the innocents who'd be dying, due to accidents, due to violent robbery etc.

On a similar but slightly changing note. When asked to justify guns, most Americans jump to the "constitution" as part of their justification. I'm bemused, its a bit of paper, with some writing on it. Surely they should have 100 better reasons than that before the "constitution" comes up?

(don't flame on the "its a bit of paper". I know what it is, what I'm trying to say is most people justify something based on usage, or requirement, or need etc).

The reason for that being in the constitution is because the government before the revolution was treating the colonist very badly. And that government was going to take away their firearms so they could do nothing about it. And the same thing had happened many times before and since. The writers of the US constitution had lived it all and knew what they were talking about. Now over the few years since then, in a tamer time, people have come to consider it as some meaningless gibberish. OH how they will harp on a few of the others, like the first amendment, the fifth, and a few others. How those have so much meaning in everyday life. How would you like it if you wrote something here and tomorrow "they" come and arrest you for doing it. It's just an out dated idea. Who needs freedom of speach or religion? Surely no one in this modern day world. But take it out and see what starts getting censored. And what backs up the rest of the constitution, A document written by the people, not the government? The second amendment is the teeth for the rest of the constitution.

Get to the old arguement; if someone comes into you house with the intent to rob, rape, murder, do you think they will hold off while you unlock your gun safe, load your gun, and all that jazz? Do you think the police are going to get there in a split second to save you? If the law and the punishment isn't enough to stop this intruder, what is?

Ever hear about the massacre at a Luby's restuarant? I forget now how many were killed. I knew a woman that was there that day, and survived. She owns guns, but because of the law she was not "allowed" to carry her gun in her purse. She said that if she'd had it not nearly half that many people would have died.

If "The People" weren't so terrified by guns because of all the rubbish spoon fed to them, and if every one had a gun in the house, the kids would be trained to respect it, and the proper way to use it. What idiot would break into the house "KNOWING" there was a gun inside and the people inside knew how to use it? But the kids are not trained because for some reason it is taboo, then they see all this junk on TV, they run across a gun and play cops and robbers. But instead of each individual teaching his/her child about real guns and gun safety. Instead of pushing for some sort of program to instruct children about guns, let's just keep the kids away from them and take them away from everybody.

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:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

asleitch wrote:I don't think stats are needed, as even a single loss of life is tragic.

So should we outlaw bathtubs? Kids drown in them. Cars are huge killers shouldn't they be outlawed? Yes, a single loss of life is tragic, but a Draconian response such as "outlaw guns" or bathtubs or cars is shortsighted and ridiculous.

As for me, other than Boy Scout camp when I was 11, I was never around guns. Now there are several in my house. They belong to my daughter: she just turned 13. A few years ago, when she was 9, my daughter wanted to sign up for 4-H Shooting Sports. I took her and they taught her safety, safety, safety. She shoots pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Everything from muzzle-loading flintlocks to laser-sighted pistols. Yes, there are other kids in the house, and we all know gun safety.

asleitch wrote: On a similar but slightly changing note. When asked to justify guns, most Americans jump to the "constitution" as part of their justification. I'm bemused

It's in our blood. Especially when talking with a Brit.

April 19, 1775: As a response to hearsay of possible revolts from the rebels in the areas surrounding Boston, Major General Thomas Gage, the commander of all British forces in North America, who is stationed at Boston, orders a column of seven hundred men to seize the weapons and ammunition at the Concord armory. Paul Revere made his famous ride, the British column went first to Lexington and the "Shot that was heard'round the world" was fired, beginning the war.

The idea of the government taking our guns has always been repulsive to us. 230 years later, you still don't understand.

Imagine, a Brit trying to lecture the USA about gun rights. Anecdotal evidence does little to reinforce either side of this argument. I can find stories of mosquitos blinding people by flying into their eyes. It's a shame but SO WHAT! Accidents happen every day to every one of us. When in the hands of a trained and law abiding owner, Guns save more lives than they cost, PERIOD!But what about Doctors ..........?Doctors:Â Â (A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.(B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians per yearare 120,000.(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services.

Guns:(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is80,000,000. Yes, that is 80Â Â million.(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year,all age groups, isÂ Â 1,500.(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.00001875.Â Â Â Â Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 timesmore dangerousÂ Â than gun owners.

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

Fact: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONEÂ Â DOCTOR.Â Â

OK, but how many did they save, and given a choice of attending a doctor with an illness, I, personally, still take the risk he'll make a mistake with me. Those people attend a doctor in the hope of getting better, and medicine is full of risks as the body is a complex organism.

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year,all age groups, is 1,500.

OK, so thats 1500 people who to me, seem not to have needed to have died at all?

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if someone comes into you house with the intent to rob, rape, murder, do you think they will hold off while you unlock your gun safe, load your gun, and all that jazz?

Hope not, 'cos here in the UK we have similar crimes, but most people do not have guns. Thing is, on the "murder" bit, in the past its unlikely they would have had such easy access to purchasing an illegal firearm. Increasingly, with the proliferation of weapons globally, this becomes much easier. I think licencing and restriction of weapons is of benefit globally, not just individual countries.

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If "The People" weren't so terrified by guns because of all the rubbish spoon fed to them

See the thing is, my grandpa used to keep his shotgun behind the door in the farm, to get to it quickly if the foxs got to his chickens, I myself used to shoot rabbits/vermin etc, And I'm quite handy with a shotgun myself, again, for shooting things to eat, or vermin control. So actually, I'm reasonably well positioned to make a judgement on the evidence presented. For farming, and hunting a gun is a weapon of choice, its easy, reliable, fast, etc, but normally its in a rifle format.

I thought I'd seen that you guys were allowed "mini-machine guns" again? Hmm, fun to use I'm sure, but why would you actually need one?

There are fully automatic weapons that are illegal to own unless you have a federal license of some sort. Then there are semi-automatic. These are any rifle, handgun, shotgun, that fire as fast as you can pull the trigger. BUT it does not fire more than one round per trigger pull.

Now the so called "assault weapons", I will get a picture of mine posted here when the camera gets back this evening. These fire the same way any other firearm does. It is only the cosmetics that makes people call them assault weapons.

I do not own a handgun. I don't really like them. But I do know people that pack them around on their hip just about everyday for when they run across a rattle snake or rabbid skunk or someother unwanted vermin. Why would you want to carry around a shotgun or rifle all day when you are trying to do other things. You would have to sit the thing down so you can do some of the stuff you got to do, and wander away from it. Then if you need it, it is over yonder and the problem is right here.

I do not know why when some one hears the word "gun" the next thought is "crime". Why not "protection"?

I have had my house broken into twice. (different houses) Once I was not home. The other time I had been gone for a weekend and had returned home. That night someone was trying to get in. Why? I don't know. He never came in but if he had he would have been badly injured or dead. Not by gun fire but from an arrow.

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:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

Here it is. My AR-15. Looks like an M-16 don't it? But it is only a semi-auto. I bought this before there was a ban on some of the cosmetics, like that would make it shoot differently.

This is an old Russian rifle. Made back in the late 1800s. Has a metal butt plate. If you don't hold it firmly against your shoulder, on a meaty part, it will llet you know you messed up. This one you wouldn't have to hit anyone with, the sound will give them a heart attack. Some one I know has one of these and put a round through a telephone pole at a thousand yards.

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:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

I hate to butt in but, if we losed all our guns to the goverment, we would all become victims, you will never get the guns from crooks, theives, drug dealers, me, ect. , It would be the biggest crime ever commited to make the country a gun free country, this country was founded on survival and guns are a very big part of it. I remember reading were a state or 2 passed laws to make it legal to carry firearms and there crime rate dropped alot, it was either texas or florida maybe both, I cant remember but I remember reading somewhere that is 1 reason why this country will never be invaded again because in Georgia 360,000 deer hunters went into the woods on opening day in 1998 and that just georgia, and with that said , I just believe that it would be the biggest mistake ever made, it would make law abiding people easy targets. just my 2 cents

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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

Never be afraid to try something new. Amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic

Jerrymac, Nice looking firearms!Very appropriate comments ............. ditto!I'm afraid our English fellow beekeeper has fallen victim to much of the liberal hooey about gun ownership. They have undoubtly learned all they need to know from Hollywood via the greatest brainwashing tool known in history (the TV). Too bad.

According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds. Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone "almost certainly" would have died had the gun not been used for protection -- a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone "probably" would have died if the gun hadn't been used in defense.)

In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first -- disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn't make any difference.

In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn't be called "newsworthy" by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to.

In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare -- well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.

In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers -- and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm -- martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns -- gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)

In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occured in places away from the defender's home.

Source: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, Volume 86, Number 1, Fall, 1995

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"Lurch my good man,â€¦what did you mean when you said just now that 'You've got better things to do than run my petty little errands'â€¦â€¦.?"