Re: [Pali] Re: Was the Buddha Obliged to Observe Vinaya Rules?, no 2.

Dear Bryan, ... (pali), aatman (sanskrit) is not to be found anywhere, I repeat anywhere, in the Buddha s (the Tathaagata) experience. The basic

Message 1 of 32
, Dec 23, 2009

Dear Bryan,

>"I agree with this provided what you mean is something called 'attta'

(pali), aatman (sanskrit) >is not to be found anywhere, I repeat
anywhere, in the Buddha's (the Tathaagata) >experience. The basic
characteristic of this atta is that it survives what we call death and

>therefore brings about continuity of the individual and so on.

Sorry I don't understand what you mean by this?"

DC: I am sorry; I should have been clearer. You said: "Buddha talks about what is not the self." You have used the English word self. The araha.m sammaasambuddho didn't talk about the 'self". The English word self does not have the same meanng as Pali 'atta' I hope this would be useful to understand what I wrote.
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The basic ignorance that the Buddha is talking about is clinging to the extremes of existence and non-existence. He steers clear of both "exist" and "not-exist" and teaches the Dharma by the middle path. Buddha always equates the middle path with the 12 links of dependent origination. The primary ignorance is thinking that something exists as a permanent, unchangeable entity (the atta) when it doesn't. That leads to taking on mental volition which leads to consciousness, and the other nine links on the chain. Breaking any one of these links leads to freeing oneself from judgements, decisions, prejudices, clinging, etc. (all of which are based on the reality of self and others) and waking up to the real nature of life, which is not a duality at all, but interconnected, interdependent and interpenetrant.

You have attempted to explain the pa.ticcasamuppaada (dependent translation) in the above paragraph. What I tried to say was that it cannot be understood by the puthujjana (mere worldling). I notice that there are a few statments for which I cannot find sutta references. (1) Buddha always equates the middle path with the 12 links of dependent origination; (2) According to pa.ticcasamuppaada, avijjaa paccayaa sa.nkhaaraa; this avijjaa is 'dukkhe a~n`naana.m, etc.', but you say "The primary ignorance is thinking that something exists as a permanent, unchangeable entity (the atta) when it doesn't."

> N: Usually we pay attention to
> >the outward appearance of things and the details and take them for
> >real. That is a delusion, as we read in the suttas. We usually take
> >concepts for realities.
>
> That was well put and is in fact the subject of a whole Mahāyāna
> sūtra (the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra). Are you familiar with
> anywhere in the Pāli scriptures where the Buddha discusses that, i.
> e. our propensity to superimpose a concept on reality and take it
> as real and permanent?

PTS transl: <Having seen material shape with the eye, he is not
entranced by the general appearance, he is not entranced by the
detail. If he dwells with this organ of sight uncontrolled,
covetousness and dejection, evil states of mind, might predominate.
So he fares along controlling it; he guards the organ of sight, he
comes to control over the organ of sight...(the same for the other
doorways).
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More can be said and discussed, but this is beyond the scope of this
Pali list. For further discussion you could join: http://
groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/

Nina.

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