So far it's been a great read. Abnett really gets the proper distinction of what a Space marine should be.. A superhero god in armor.

Why I don't get though....How can Damocles squad kill over 1000 Dark Eldar in one chapter...and then lose 3 members against 400 starved khorne cultists? Granted one had been weakened by a chaos spawn... but it seems a little inconsistent.

Lastie

11-10-2007, 13:01

This is precisely the reason why Brotherhood of the Snake does not interest me. For one it'll be nice to have a reasonably realistic portrayal of a Space Marine without it seeming like a piece of fiction written by those infamous ten-year olds that seem to get dredged up whenever someone bemoans the current state of affairs (you know the ones; Space Marines are their first (and so far only) army, and anything they talk about is about Space Marines).

While I'm sure that Kabalite Eldar have a fairly decent birth rate to sustain their cut-throat culture (which begs the question why their Craftworld cousins seem so intent of driving their species to extinct and not go out and make babies, but then I just have issues with the whole Tolkienesque 'dying Elder race' thing anyway), but 1,000 warriors is a little ... stupid? We are talking about some of the most lethal creatures in the galaxy (you don't survive long in Commorragh without learning a few things that make the average Guardsman look like a inexperienced child), with some of the most sickeningly advanced technology this side of a Gauss weapon.

1,000 Dark Eldar should equal more than enough Dark Lances for a single Tactical Squad. :evilgrin:

As for the 400 starved Khorne cultists ... I agree that inconsistent is the word for it. Kill a thousand deadly Eldar warriors with no losses, while you lose three to a half-dead mob. :wtf:

Nice one Abnett, please stick to Guardsmen.

Tehkonrad

11-10-2007, 13:18

I agree verily

ss_cherubael

11-10-2007, 13:23

nup gonna have to disagree.

heres why:
Kabalite eldar are very nasty as you say and when you read the book it comes across like that, the thing that people forget is that yes space marines are fething huge killing machines that are near impossible to kill and they need to be portrayed like that. Also they manage to run the eldar to ground and force them to fight on their terms and not the hit and run style of warfare that plays to the de strengths. get them bogged down and they are a very weak race, their strength is in their speed and surprise tactics.

The mob that takes the three drag them down in weight of numbers and butchers them like you would expect from khorne cultists. This isnt so hard to believe if youve ever seen a riot and what alot of annoyed people can do to anything (flip cars, so on).

pretty much the eldar got munched because they were forced to fight the space marines on their terms and not their own, if it was their own i would place the eldar winning every time.

edit: hey Tehkonrad mind adding why you agree or any other points to the discussion?? what youve said adds nothing and wastes space, be constructive or dont bother.

Progena

11-10-2007, 13:53

Erm, Damocles squad killing one thousand Eldar's a bit unlikely, even though they set up a crossfire killing feeing Eldar. But it wasn't the Khorne cultists who killed the marines, it was a Flesh Hound of Khorne, a summoned Daemon.

Rockerfella

11-10-2007, 14:14

If the Eldar can't fight on their own terms, they don't fight. They've been around for long enough to have worked that out for themselves.

Its just another example of frothing fanbouy literature, written for fanbouys by fanbuoys. I mean no offence here, so don't flame me, its simply the way I see it!

Having said that, I thought Abnetts contributions to the Heresy books have been great. Dang, I LOVE that series. :P

7thOffensive

11-10-2007, 14:48

Erm, Damocles squad killing one thousand Eldar's a bit unlikely, even though they set up a crossfire killing feeing Eldar. But it wasn't the Khorne cultists who killed the marines, it was a Flesh Hound of Khorne, a summoned Daemon.

No, 2 other marines were dragged down by cultists and killed.

And I don't buy that a marine who is strong enough to wield a 70 pound lightning claw (without armor) as if it were a toy.........would have any trouble flinging off 4 or 5 90 pound humans grabbing on to him. (starved humans.)

Also... how does a scyth cut through space marine armor?

And true, the dark eldar aren't melee specialists, and the squad had them on the back foot.........I'll give you that. It's not so much that I don't buy them killing the DE. It's that I don't buy the humans killing the marines.

Also the marines had a hero level librarian with them that would count as a HQ choice or special.

Also, I like abnett and his style of writing. He really gets 40k in a way most don't. He adds a lot of movie style flare to his stories but I think his take on fluff is usually right on.........it's just he makes some flubs with consistency here and there that bother me. You'd think, with his audience, he'd be more careful.

I don't think making marines god-like is fanboi. If you can't accept that marines are uber you can't accept the base premise of 40k.

Rockerfella

11-10-2007, 15:24

I don't think making marines god-like is fanboi. If you can't accept that marines are uber you can't accept the base premise of 40k.

Ive been accepting the base premise of 40k for 15 years. To me its that 'marines are uber compared to......us'. Not that 'marines are the single hardest fighting force in the galaxy', no matter what GW filth and fanbouy driven propaganda is shovelled down your throat. So, we'll agree to disagree here I guess. Sure, marines are 'uber' as you put it, but then, are they any more 'uber' than one of the oldest and most experienced fighting races in the galaxy? Naah, course they're not. If you believe they are, then you (in my opinion) misunderstand the entire premise of the 40k gaming world. ;)

Suicide Messiah

11-10-2007, 15:34

Havent read the book but DE really arnt that great a fighting force. Their entire culture is based on cloak and dagger murders, politics and pirate raids. SMs on the other hand spend their whole lives fighting or preparing to fight.

If SMs are not the hardest fighting force then what is? I thought that was the entire point of marines.

Rockerfella

11-10-2007, 15:41

The DA kill just as effectivley as the maries do i'm afraid. They just do it differently. Its really as simple as that.

As for your second point, well, the harlequins? Erm, any aspect warrior is more than a match for a marine in its own specialised subject. Erm, Necron Warriors are the equal of maries, with better guns. Erm, ORKs are just as strong, tough and 'ard' in all fairness, they just don't shoot as well.

There's lots to go at. :)

Cheers.

Chaplain Dionitas

11-10-2007, 15:54

Well I guess I should put up my ten year old drivel here as I have a Space Marine army. Eldar were not created for war. Space Marines are created for war. Granted, the Eldar have been fighting for eons, but war is not the reason for their existence. There are eldar that do exist for war yes but not the entire race. A marine lives, breathes, eats and Sh*ts for war. Trust me when I say I don't buy the propaganda that is "shoved down my throat" by GW. If you've got such a chip on your shoulder about this then maybe you shouldn't play the game.

I agree that it is far-fetched that Space marines would kill 1,000 eldar and then lose a couple to some psycho khorne cultists.

Honestly people, who cares if people play Space marines? Is that your golden ticket to become some elitist snob and look down upon us lowly marine players because you don't play Space marines? I've been doing this since '95 So what? I personally don't care if you been playing for 20 years. Does that make you the consumate WH40k master of the universe?

Lighten up people

Eisen

11-10-2007, 18:58

Eldar were not created for war.

We talking about the same Eldar who were created to be the pawns of the chess game between the Elder Gods and the C'tan, if you're into that particular piece of fluff?

sulla

11-10-2007, 19:59

Ive been accepting the base premise of 40k for 15 years. To me its that 'marines are uber compared to......us'. Not that 'marines are the single hardest fighting force in the galaxy'

Excellent summation of my fellings too.

Rockerfella

11-10-2007, 20:17

Well I guess I should put up my ten year old drivel here as I have a Space Marine army. Eldar were not created for war. Space Marines are created for war. Granted, the Eldar have been fighting for eons, but war is not the reason for their existence. WRONG!!! *RANT ALERT* WRONG!!* RANT ALERT*

The Eldar were created as a race uber millions of years ago specifically for war. They were a species designed by possibly the most single influential race that ever existed, the Old ones, purely to fight the Necron and the C'tan. Trust me, the Eldar were bred for war. ;)

There are eldar that do exist for war yes but not the entire race. A marine lives, breathes, eats and Sh*ts for war. So do aspect warriors. Exarchs certainly live, breathe and S**t war just as feverently as marines do, if not more so. :)

Trust me when I say I don't buy the propaganda that is "shoved down my throat" by GW. If you've got such a chip on your shoulder about this then maybe you shouldn't play the game. I don't play the game. :eyebrows: Also, i'm a little tired of the aggressive and rather petulant nature of posts like the above. All i see as of late is argumentative, abusive and at times infuriating posts. Its making me want to take my business elswhere.

Honestly people, who cares if people play Space marines? Is that your golden ticket to become some elitist snob and look down upon us lowly marine players because you don't play Space marines? I've been doing this since '95 So what? I personally don't care if you been playing for 20 years. Does that make you the consumate WH40k master of the universe?

Lighten up people

I suggest you take note of the hypocricy of your post, lest you hang yourself with your own noose. It seems to me that you're perfectly happy to tow the party line and froth bilge and dirt when it suits you, but the second someone challenges your position you see it fit to accuse them of the very thing you are most guilty of yourself.

Also, you're clearly shpwing a strong lean towards using pure supposition to reinforce your arguments. When, exactly, did I ever say previous to THIS post, that I didn't play marines? I'm guessing you just assumed that because I said something you didn't like, right? Well, i've a perfectly painted Space Wolf army in the loft. Its up there not because 'I don't play marines', but because I don't play at all.

I've certainly never claimed to be the "consumate WH40k master of the universe", or anything such. Those are your words, not mine. I rarely, if ever, play the game. I'm far more interested in the background of the 40k universe than the game itself. But, thats just me.

It seems to me that you've reacted badly because someone has had the clout to tell you something you don't like to hear, or believe. Well, i'll take no nonsense on this forum, ever. If i think someone is talking drivel and detritus, i'l tell them. This is one of those moments.

Sure, the maries are 'uber hard', but there are things out there, in the 40k galaxy that make marines look like Bob Monkhouse. I LOVE the heresy books, every one of them. The way the maries are portrayed has reaffirmed my affinity with the Astartes and made me a fan again. So, please, don't accuse me of being a 'marine hater' or any other such nonsense. I like marines.

I am, however, also aware that they aren't the greatest thing in the ooniverse, and certainly aren't the galaxies 'ardest' warriors as pure, unadulterated imperial propaganda would have me believe. Just my opinion, just my voice. I've been wrong hundreds of thousands of times before, i'm sure I will be again. Bottom line is, this is what i believe, and there's very little can be done to sway me on that. So, cheers!

Nuff said.

Adra

11-10-2007, 20:39

i know this may seem a bit out there but....if this is the reason that ur not interested in the book...then you need to get out a bit more. Its a fine exploration of the SM concept and i, for one, really enjoyed it. That enjoyment easily overshadows the minor logical issue raised here. One my...a GW book has an inconsistancy...what a suprise....ill just call the care police....

G.

Rockerfella

11-10-2007, 20:48

Dont' bother calling anyone, its not important enough frankly. I'm not interested in the book, because a) I'm a third the way through Dune b) I'm attacking several teaching degree assignments, and c) I'm also reading Feists Magician. I just... don't.. have ... the ...time.

Maybe when things have settled down more, then i'll think about having a blast with it. Having said that, i'll not read it if its another example of mindless 'marines kill da everyth**hjnbg TEH best!!!!'. Because, i can read that in every other marine based publication. I'd be wasting my hard earned money, wouldn't I.

Now, descent of Angels.... that I CAN'T wait for. :)

Cheers!

Cry of the Wind

11-10-2007, 21:53

I'm sorry, I like Marines just as much as any other guy that has 5000pts of them but come on...killing 1000 Dark Eldar...with a squad of marines...wtf! Dark Eldar shouldn't be found in those numbers outside of their home as far as I'm aware and certainly shouldn't be able to be slaughtered like that (and if they were tricked into a trap of some kind...how did you trick one of the trickiest races in the galaxy into a trap with Space Brutes...sorry Space Marines...).

Now I haven't read the book yet (though a little preview bit I did read seemed really neat) and hope the Marine concept is portrayed as well as some of you have said, but that still doesn't excuse such a ridiculous idea as 1000 Dark Eldar killed by a single squad of Marines. I will probably pick this novel up although that scene will have to be toned down in my head as I read it or something bad might happen to the book. Space Marines are hardly 'nearly impossible to kill' as a lot of other fluff has shown.

If a squad of Marines can kill 1000 Dark Eldar I hope the next book with Necrons shows a squad of Immortals destroying a Space Marine Chapter or two...just to be fair (since Necrons are even more impossible to kill than Space Marines). To think I once thought as Dan Abnett as a good source of 'canon' material.

Marstfu

11-10-2007, 22:31

Movie Marines.

All that needs to be said.
1000 DE against.. what? A squad.

Did we just forget, that they're still initiative 5 Killers, filled with spikes?
Their squad leaders use weapons that kill marines like no tomorrow.

As someone once said, Marines in books are WS 9, S6, T6, Rerollable 3+ inv save, using a bolter, which is S8 AP 2 Assault 10, and a chainsword which is a mastercrafted power weapon which also instant-kills.

Gah.

Captain Stern

11-10-2007, 22:56

Could you be more specific? In what circumstances did these marines kill a 1000 Dark Eldar? It's not that I agree with those who think the average Dark Eldar veteran or an Eldar Aspect Warrior is equal to a space marine but I would like to know more.

This is somewhat off topic but I do think that post Rogue Trader 40K Eldar aren't portrayed in a way that's convincing as a serious fighting force. When you consider their technology, physiology, long life and all the implications that come from their short numbers - they should be a lot more deadly. Say, 5 Eldar vets to 1 space marine (in a background context). They should have such things as a shuriken pistol mounted to each piece of wrist armour (and that kind of thing).

Nazguire

12-10-2007, 00:53

Movie Marines.

All that needs to be said.
1000 DE against.. what? A squad.

Did we just forget, that they're still initiative 5 Killers, filled with spikes?
Their squad leaders use weapons that kill marines like no tomorrow.

As someone once said, Marines in books are WS 9, S6, T6, Rerollable 3+ inv save, using a bolter, which is S8 AP 2 Assault 10, and a chainsword which is a mastercrafted power weapon which also instant-kills.

Gah.

Comparing rules to background an insane man make.

izandral

12-10-2007, 00:56

i read the book , i don't remember being said they killed 1000 dark eldar , if someone could point me in the good part of the book. i'm pretty sure the complete situation helps a lot to explain the feat.

Also killing 1000 people (no matter the race) with 10 men is rather easy if the situation is right. It would be silly to assume that things happen like in the tabletop game. in ''real''/novel life people can't see whats on the other side of the wall , or are not necessarily even aware that there's an enemy on the planet before it's too late. i can think of a lot of situation where a special operation unit (like marines are) can kill a lot with little danger to themselves

Nazguire

12-10-2007, 01:00

I havent read the book so be warned.
But the way I see it, ten Marines, no matter how well equipped, trained and covered by plot devices, could defeat a thousand Dark Eldar, not unless the Dark Eldar just simply walked into their guns to die.

Out numbered a hundred to one means quite literally, each Marine would have to kill a hundred Dark Eldar before they are killed (which they will be). Now yes, they are seven feet tall and encased in armour that is a foot thick but when you are fighting against a species such as the Dark Eldar who are as technologically advanced as the Eldar, and live in a culture for hundreds of years solely based on killing and corruption, the odds are increasingly slim.

Not saying that they won't give them a good run for their money if they are well prepared and capitalise on the enemy's mistakes (look at the Battle of Thermopylae, it is possible for a token force to inflict massive casualties on the enemy) but ultimately it's a lost cause.

7thOffensive

12-10-2007, 02:38

i read the book , i don't remember being said they killed 1000 dark eldar , if someone could point me in the good part of the book. i'm pretty sure the complete situation helps a lot to explain the feat.

Also killing 1000 people (no matter the race) with 10 men is rather easy if the situation is right. It would be silly to assume that things happen like in the tabletop game. in ''real''/novel life people can't see whats on the other side of the wall , or are not necessarily even aware that there's an enemy on the planet before it's too late. i can think of a lot of situation where a special operation unit (like marines are) can kill a lot with little danger to themselves

page 98.
-----------------[spoiler]-----------------------
"Praid was washed with blood, and his bolter was dry-firing as petrok steadied him.
"it is done. Priad. We have slain a thousand over and again."

So more than 1000 :D"

it's meant to be a defining heroic moment where songs are sung about crazy deeds of valor. Keep in mind too a lot of the eldar are fleeing a massive assault and aren't really that well armed.

Basically there is a squad sent to stand as a rear guard to large attack. But the dark eldar are massed there and the squad is pinned down. The chapters strongest librarian has a vision to find them and help them. They break into the city and fight the dark eldar as they retreat from the main space marine assault force, kicking much ass and stopping a mass bombing.

[/spolier]

izandral

12-10-2007, 03:01

I havent read the book so be warned.
But the way I see it, ten Marines, no matter how well equipped, trained and covered by plot devices, could defeat a thousand Dark Eldar, not unless the Dark Eldar just simply walked into their guns to die.

Out numbered a hundred to one means quite literally, each Marine would have to kill a hundred Dark Eldar before they are killed (which they will be). Now yes, they are seven feet tall and encased in armour that is a foot thick but when you are fighting against a species such as the Dark Eldar who are as technologically advanced as the Eldar, and live in a culture for hundreds of years solely based on killing and corruption, the odds are increasingly slim.

ah yes i remember that part , i'm not sure if the ''We have slain a thousand over and again'' is not just a meaning that they killed a hell of a lot as it's not from the author point of view but from those doing the fighting which might not be really acurate

but the situation does lend itself well to a massacre , a mass of people fleeing your way but not knowing you're there. the first to see you try to stop but a pushed by those behind and get slaughtered.

so indeed they almost simply walked into their gun

and a hundred to one is quite easy to achieve. If a blow the building you're having your rave dark eldar party in i'd probably kill a fair number and still be alive. if i'm in a defensive position waiting for the enemy force to retreat my way i'd be in a real good place for a massacre.

even an ordinary human with a bolter and lot's of clips would probably be able to kill a few dozens of unsuspecting, pressed together and fleeing dark eldar. full auto fire , with a masse of bodies where every bullet will almost be guaranteed to hit (and we all know dark eldar armour is almos only for show) that's a good situation

Cry of the Wind

12-10-2007, 03:18

Ok, well that doesn't sound as bad as it was made out to be. Now I think I'm going to have to get the book to just to read it properly and make a full judgement. I still don't like the idea of any Eldar type being slaughtered, they just really don't strike me as the type to get into those situations or react in a standard fleeing mob routine when something unexpected happens.

Lastie

12-10-2007, 08:41

Wow, this thread exploded overnight.

... the thing that people forget is that yes space marines are fething huge killing machines that are near impossible to kill and they need to be portrayed like that.

I beg to differ. A logical reading of the fluff for Space Marine creation (yes I know that logic and 40K doesn't always fit together, but a world needs internal logic of a sort otherwise it falls apart) paints a very mortal picture for our Astartes. While weaponry designed for anti-infantry would be hard-pressed to damage Space Marines, most weapons designed for taking out tanks would likely have no problem. That is the whole point of a Space Marine; heavy infantry, designed to require a higher degree of firepower to kill than for normal infantry, but far from invulnerable (of course, Imperial propaganda would like you to think otherwise).

Also... how does a scyth cut through space marine armor?

Same way it cuts through tank armour (Power Armour is effectively similar protective properties to what covers modern tanks, after all) - i.e. it doesn't. Slow hand clap for Abnett here. :rolleyes:

I don't think making marines god-like is fanboi. If you can't accept that marines are uber you can't accept the base premise of 40k.

I accept Marines are uber. I also accept Eldar are more uber, Dark Eldar equally uber to their kin, and Harlequins uber-ist of all, with a Solitaire being Lord of Uber. That's before we come to other races.

Sure, marines are 'uber' as you put it, but then, are they any more 'uber' than one of the oldest and most experienced fighting races in the galaxy?

Average Space Marine fighting experience: 70-140 years. Average Aspect Eldar fighting experience: ~400+. Average Exarch fighting experience: 1,500+. Average Dark Eldar fighting experience: probably equivalent to Aspects, considering the nature of Commorragh, but less disciplined in a specific battlefield role (jack of all trades).

If SMs are not the hardest fighting force then what is? I thought that was the entire point of marines.

Space Marines are the hardest fighting force of the Imperium. I don't remember anything that says they are the greatest in the entire universe (a prospect that's quite amusing for a species that hasn't even existed for a million years yet).

even an ordinary human with a bolter and lot's of clips would probably be able to kill a few dozens of unsuspecting, pressed together and fleeing dark eldar.

There's something about 'unsuspecting, pressed together and fleeing Dark Eldar' that seems just as wrong as 'scared, confused, and defenceless Marines'. :p

izandral

12-10-2007, 11:34

i remember somewhere being said that marines where the best fighting force in the galaxy , but i'm pretty sure it was in their codex or something like that:p

i do believe marines are better than eldar in the physical department. especially if you add the power armour. So it then goes to the experience/trainning

even if eldar have lived longer and could get more experience (more on the ''could'' later) eldar are also very rooted in the past and really don't like to inovate. so i'm not sure what this does for their tactics and actual deadliness.

as for being actually more experienced i'm not so sure for non-spiky eldar. Marines move from a war to the next with very little rest in between. i don't know how much involvement a craftworld is in various conflict but to me it sounds like even exarch spend a lot of time in their temple. Practice is far from being as good as the real thing

anyway i enjoyed the novel , a few leap of faith here and there but most of the time can be ''explained'':D

madd0ct0r

12-10-2007, 12:48

Just a quick query. Assumming one bolt round to one DE (A BIG assumption given the situation) how much space would the thousand boltrounds needed take up?

Conversly, How many DE need to die to each boltround to reduce the volume to a carryable level?

I've actually got no real issue with the number killed, fleeing DE don't strike me as likely to team up against an enemy. Every EmoElf for themselves!

Brother Loki

12-10-2007, 13:05

That's only 100 rounds per man. Thats less than 4 magazines. While bolt rounds are big and heavy, so are astartes, so I expect they can carry roughly the same amount of ammo as a modern soldier. I also expect Astartes to be much better at one-shot-one-kill, with the extra lethality of explosive bolts, and the self-targeting auto-senses in their armour. I believe modern infantry commonly carry 8-10 magazines into battle.

Routing troops are easily cut down, I should think, particularly when packed into narrow streets and corridors, getting in each others' way and so on. It's not that implausible.

There's also the tone of the book to consider - Abnett's writing about the Astartes in much the same way that Homer wrote about Achilles, Ajax and the rest. It's got the tone of myth, not just a novel. These are hreoes, in the proper greek sense.

Lastie

12-10-2007, 14:23

These are hreoes, in the proper greek sense.

Full of tragedy and drop dead at the end? :p

Curufew

12-10-2007, 14:34

Maybe the Dark Eldars got high on drugs and mistook the bolter muzzle flashes as some kind of hallucinations and walked towards it....

Johnator

12-10-2007, 14:34

I just want to point out two things (keep in mind I have read and loved the book thus bias for but I am not a Space Marine player thus bias against sometimes).
1. I don't take that line literally. I think of it more as an exagerration by the speaker to indicate that they really destroyed the Dark Eldar not the exact number. I think we know that with all the heroism etc. they might be overdoing it to make a point.

2. I personally loved this book and thought it was very well done. I realize some of you will shout "SPACE MARINE FANBOY!!!!" which actually makes me mad since I am not even a big supporter of Space Marines. The point is that the book is well written and does give a sense of how rare and important a Space Marine unit is. I loved at the beginning that ONE Space Marine was sent to solve the whole problem not a super army that seems to be more prevalent in some works of literature.

I also love the Horus Heresy books greatly and look forward to Descent of Angels but being a supporter of a book should not label you as "for" or "against" Space Marines.

Adra

12-10-2007, 14:52

Indeed..i love how many people are voicing an opinion and havent even read the text. The line is just throw away and i for one didnt even remember it or consider it when i was reading the book. They have killed alot of guys i think is what is being said.

What more interesting to me than the SM lovers, are the SM haters. Sheesh get over it. They are pretty hard you know, no need to get all pissy when they kill a few guys. :p

Cry of the Wind

12-10-2007, 15:29

When the text was explained in context it reads better, they way the OP made it sound was a lot worse than how it is.

I think a lot of the Space Marine love/hate issue has to deal with the fact there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief that even Abnett should respect. We all know that Space Marines are super powerful killers, it's just hard to stomach that they are the better than everything else out there despite the described advanced nature and supposed skills of all those they vanquish. I can't enjoy reading fiction if it seems too ridiculous to be possible even within the sci-fi fantasy world that the story is set in. When I read the stories of Eldar Grav tanks being brought down by children with rocks or whatever…well I just can’t see how that helps the story or the 40k universe. If all those alien races are so pathetic why haven’t the Space Marines already killed all of them by now?

That’s the issue for me, it’s not that the Marines killed a few powerful aliens, it’s that these other races should look like a threat or there isn’t any worry about the Space Marines losing. That leaves no suspense in the story and lessens the 40k universe as a whole since everything is ‘canon’ no matter how ridiculous it sounds and as a result we have people truly believing that Space Marines are all godlike characters and not just tough men wearing powerful armour.

Rockerfella

12-10-2007, 15:32

I love it when a person decides another person is a 'marine hater' just because they say something the fanbouy didn't like. I just LOVE that. :wtf:

Onto a more serious note: No one ever, at any point, said that marines weren't 'pretty hard' you know? No one said that. In fact, we've all agreed they are 'uber'. However, there are things in the galaxy equally as 'uber', such as Aspect Warriors. There are things more uber, such as Exarchs. There are things even more uber still, such as Harlequins and Phoenix Lords. There are then things even more Uber still, like the Solitaires for example. Thats all just within the Eldar infantry. I guess this is all about perspective. Marines are hard, yes, but please, guys, lets be honest with ourselves, there are things out there, such as the afore listed nasties, that are equally as, if not more 'hard'. They may not be as strong or as tough, but they're faster and certainly built to kill you just as quickly or efficiently, if not more so.

If we talk about real aliens, then it all gets a little scary how comparativley 'uber' marines really are.

But hey, what do I know, I'm just a marine hater, right? :rolleyes::eyebrows: Lets put that one straight too. No, i'm not, as stated numerous times before. I like marines, have a marine army and love the heresy books. In fact, i love them too much, its become an obsession if i'm honest. I'm obsessed with getting first editions too. *shivers*

When the text was explained in context it reads better, they way the OP made it sound was a lot worse than how it is.

I think a lot of the Space Marine love/hate issue has to deal with the fact there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief that even Abnett should respect. We all know that Space Marines are super powerful killers, it's just hard to stomach that they are the better than everything else out there despite the described advanced nature and supposed skills of all those they vanquish. I can't enjoy reading fiction if it seems too ridiculous to be possible even within the sci-fi fantasy world that the story is set in. When I read the stories of Eldar Grav tanks being brought down by children with rocks or whatever…well I just can’t see how that helps the story or the 40k universe. If all those alien races are so pathetic why haven’t the Space Marines already killed all of them by now?

That’s the issue for me, it’s not that the Marines killed a few powerful aliens, it’s that these other races should look like a threat or there isn’t any worry about the Space Marines losing. That leaves no suspense in the story and lessens the 40k universe as a whole since everything is ‘canon’ no matter how ridiculous it sounds and as a result we have people truly believing that Space Marines are all godlike characters and not just tough men wearing powerful armour.

Quoted for truth in all fairness. Eloquently and intelligently put good sir. What you've said in the above is precisley the reason why I don't buy marine fiction anymore. I know whats going to happen before i've opened the page. Super advanced hard as nails aliens are going to be ridiculed and made to look foolish at the hands of the marines. It suspends belief and becomes dull and uninteresting. Then you watch a game being played and the marines never win. Its all a tad.... lopsided.

Anyways! Great thread!!!

Cheers.

Adra

12-10-2007, 15:54

When the text was explained in context it reads better, they way the OP made it sound was a lot worse than how it is.

Yeah fair enough, he did make it sound alot worse than it was.

I think a lot of the Space Marine love/hate issue has to deal with the fact there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief that even Abnett should respect. We all know that Space Marines are super powerful killers, it's just hard to stomach that they are the better than everything else out there despite the described advanced nature and supposed skills of all those they vanquish. I can't enjoy reading fiction if it seems too ridiculous to be possible even within the sci-fi fantasy world that the story is set in.

I think thats a fair comment but for a few points. Firstly if the overall fluff (excluding specific writers) is saying that SM are that good then, well, they are that good. yes, sometimes it does seem they are a bit amazing but long ago i decided that this must just be what marines where like. If the fluff is consistantly saying that SM are amazing, well i guess thats what they are suposed to be. I think what is the biggest problem here isnt how good SM in the fluff are, its how good they are in game. The two dont match at all but maybe the distance is greater than we all think. If its well written then i have no problem with a marine taking out an exarch or a solitare or an Avatar or whatever. If its written well then ive no issue with it. Maybe better to re-examine just how good SM are suposed to be and not what u belive they should be.

Onto a more serious note: No one ever, at any point, said that marines weren't 'pretty hard' you know? No one said that. In fact, we've all agreed they are 'uber'. However, there are things in the galaxy equally as 'uber', such as Aspect Warriors. There are things more uber, such as Exarchs. There are things even more uber still, such as Harlequins and Phoenix Lords. There are then things even more Uber still, like the Solitaires for example. Thats all just within the Eldar infantry. I guess this is all about perspective.

Again same issue...maybe they just are that good. Its more a problem with their being too few books with Exarchs as main characters. i garantee there would be more marine death then. Warriors of Ultramar had a guardsman nail a carnifix so you know...alls fair :D

But hey, what do I know, I'm just a marine hater, right? :rolleyes::eyebrows: Lets put that one straight too. No, i'm not, as stated numerous times before. I like marines, have a marine army and love the heresy books. In fact, i love them too much, its become an obsession if i'm honest. I'm obsessed with getting first editions too. *shivers*

Hubris. I wasnt refering to you specificaly or i would have quoted you.

Rockerfella

12-10-2007, 16:11

Maybe better to re-examine just how good SM are suposed to be and not what u belive they should be. The thing is though, I can flip that on you and ask you do to the same. You believe the marines to be that hard, I don't. Seriously, Fluff wise, the Eldar are supposed to be incredibly killy when the desire so takes them. An Exarch would rarely, if ever be taken down by Joe blogg marine, unless its a captain or other hero. They are simply too hard for that. An aspect warrior is the equivalent of a marine, really, they are.

Again same issue...maybe they just are that good. Its more a problem with their being too few books with Exarchs as main characters. i garantee there would be more marine death then. Warriors of Ultramar had a guardsman nail a carnifix so you know...alls fair :D Don't you just think its a little boring though? A little 'broken record'? I want something new, a differen't direction. I want a balance of fluff in all fairness. I also know I ask too much. ;)

Hubris. I wasnt refering to you specificaly or i would have quoted you. No problem good sir. It certainly felt that way mind. But, thanks for clearing that up for me! :)

Adra

12-10-2007, 16:21

Don't you just think its a little boring though? A little 'broken record'? I want something new, a differen't direction. I want a balance of fluff in all fairness. I also know I ask too much. ;)

No you dont ask too much, and yes i do think its boring. The best way to see some Exarch or Crisis Suit killing action is to have books written from the perspective of the aliens. Problem is that thats a much harder book to write mainly because of the empathy we have for more human characters and the difficulty in creating that for anything else. Its not impossible but just more difficult. Hense so many books about guard and SM that are crap and so we get flooded with the uber marine syndrom. Again, its not that marines are not that good, its just that we only ever see it from their side and so they tend to win alot and leave us thinking they always do. I would love to see some books on an Exarch wandering about but as it is we only have Goto to do that for us so all we can expect is a mix of elf porn and saw 3.

kortholaxthedamned

12-10-2007, 16:42

Looking at the line in question, I really suspect it's the whole Greek declaring their achievements thing, like...

'Ah-ha! I have slain a million-million foes, eaten all their faces, then made a Flintstones-esque car out of their bones to come home with. No exaggeration for mythological effect here at all, no sir-ee.'

Cry of the Wind

12-10-2007, 17:04

I like looking at the Inquisitor stats for a Marine and not 40k (since most 40k battles really don't make any sense in the context of battles in the 41st millennium...they're just cool for making a neat game). I'm not sure how based they are in reality (I mean in that in character of course), but they seem to fit what image of Marines I've pieced together over years of reading about them (although the fact that a Marine throwing his bolter at you will do more damage than if he shot you with it seems a little off, but that's more because of game mechanics).

A Marine in Inquisitor is a dead hard character. Their armour is fantastic and their basic bolter and chainsword are among the best weapons out there, let alone their power weapons and other special gear. The difference will be that an Eldar character may not have the armour or brute strength, but they will have a ridiculously high weapon skill and initiative compared to the Marine. Sure a Marine will literally punch the head off the Eldar if he lands the blow, thing is because of the speed and skill of the Eldar that isn't very likely to happen.

A lot of fluff sees Marines fighting on their terms all the time and the other commander seems to be an idiot by comparison. Something to remember is that this probably wouldn't happen as often as it does in fluff, after all Farseers 'can like see through time man :p' to setup situations in their favour. Dark Eldar have centuries experience as sneaky raiders and are always looking over their shoulder for a trap just because of the world they are raised in. Those points are almost always over looked when dealing with Marines. Yes they are powerful killers, they just don't have the comparative skill of their enemies and it never shows. I'd love to see Marine fluff written in a way that may have them still win, but at least have a more accurate portrait of the enemy.

I know a lot can be attributed to propaganda but I'd still expect an Imperial Citizen to fear xenos and not just think 'oh I'll be fine, the Marines will save me', that kind of thought won't lead one to the chapel to pray to the Emperor for deliverance or get one through a hard day labour building tanks for the Imperial Guard, after all why bother living a hard life of servitude to help keep the Imperial war machine working if the Marines are going to make a mockery of any attack. Life in the Imperium is not filled with hope and a sense of well being, it is filled with fear of the many horrors that lurk out there, even if the citizen doesn't truly understand what those horrors are (which helps the Imperium maintain control).

It also has to do with balance in the 40k universe. If Marines are really as good as they are then they would unbalance the entire 40k universe and not just the tabletop with 6man Las/plas or whatever people think makes Marines cheesy these days... The Eldar and all the other races out there can't pale in comparison to the Space Marines otherwise it would undermine the whole crumbling Imperium beset on all sides by the horrors of the universe. If all it takes is a few Marines to beat back an Ork Waaaghh or a Biel-tan attack it breaks the balance of power. Since the 40k universe exists the way it does Marines can't be as super powerful as they are made out to be (otherwise they wouldn't have sent chapters worth of them to Armageddon for example).

Hope that came out as well as my other post there!

Chaplain Dionitas

12-10-2007, 17:47

WRONG!!! *RANT ALERT* WRONG!!* RANT ALERT*

The Eldar were created as a race uber millions of years ago specifically for war. They were a species designed by possibly the most single influential race that ever existed, the Old ones, purely to fight the Necron and the C'tan. Trust me, the Eldar were bred for war. ;)

So do aspect warriors. Exarchs certainly live, breathe and S**t war just as feverently as marines do, if not more so. :)

I don't play the game. :eyebrows: Also, i'm a little tired of the aggressive and rather petulant nature of posts like the above. All i see as of late is argumentative, abusive and at times infuriating posts. Its making me want to take my business elswhere.

I suggest you take note of the hypocricy of your post, lest you hang yourself with your own noose. It seems to me that you're perfectly happy to tow the party line and froth bilge and dirt when it suits you, but the second someone challenges your position you see it fit to accuse them of the very thing you are most guilty of yourself.

Also, you're clearly shpwing a strong lean towards using pure supposition to reinforce your arguments. When, exactly, did I ever say previous to THIS post, that I didn't play marines? I'm guessing you just assumed that because I said something you didn't like, right? Well, i've a perfectly painted Space Wolf army in the loft. Its up there not because 'I don't play marines', but because I don't play at all.

I've certainly never claimed to be the "consumate WH40k master of the universe", or anything such. Those are your words, not mine. I rarely, if ever, play the game. I'm far more interested in the background of the 40k universe than the game itself. But, thats just me.

It seems to me that you've reacted badly because someone has had the clout to tell you something you don't like to hear, or believe. Well, i'll take no nonsense on this forum, ever. If i think someone is talking drivel and detritus, i'l tell them. This is one of those moments.

Sure, the maries are 'uber hard', but there are things out there, in the 40k galaxy that make marines look like Bob Monkhouse. I LOVE the heresy books, every one of them. The way the maries are portrayed has reaffirmed my affinity with the Astartes and made me a fan again. So, please, don't accuse me of being a 'marine hater' or any other such nonsense. I like marines.

I am, however, also aware that they aren't the greatest thing in the ooniverse, and certainly aren't the galaxies 'ardest' warriors as pure, unadulterated imperial propaganda would have me believe. Just my opinion, just my voice. I've been wrong hundreds of thousands of times before, i'm sure I will be again. Bottom line is, this is what i believe, and there's very little can be done to sway me on that. So, cheers!

Nuff said.

Call it the straw that broke the camels back if you will. You can look at my posts and see that I rarely, if ever, rant or flame on this board. I'm just tired of seeing people generalizing marine players as 10 year old slugs. Better yet I don't want to be categorized in that class as I have about 20+ years of age on them. I've seen alot of posts in other forums by people like that. I just happened to see your post and that was it. I admit I'm not the eldar fluff master so I stand corrected on that. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.

I agree with you being tired of seeing argumentative, abusive and at times infuriating posts and wanting to take your business elsewhere but you should try going back and looking at your post you should take some the same medicine you just prescribed to me. I may have taken your post out of context(If I did I apologize), but it sure looked like you trying to instigate something there. I don't think anyone appreciates the term fanboy. If I were anykind of fanboy it would probably for something dumber like Star Wars

7thOffensive

12-10-2007, 21:18

I think a lot of people are bringing their TT woes to the board.

It's like if I didn't want to read a book about the Necrons because they over powered in Dawn of War. It's silly.

Chaplain Dionitas

12-10-2007, 21:25

To be honest, the HH books were very refreshing for me. I, like many others I would think, got tired of the same old marine books. I never touched the DoW series and those BA books almost put me to sleep. I find myself more intrigued by the the Inquisitor books (All of them) and short stories on the IG. I guess because I can identify with the suck factor they have more.

My armies are DA, SW and DH. I'd like to think I play these armies because of the interesting background fluff (At least the DA and SW). The DH are just interesting because of the variety and combinations that I could potentially screw myself with.

Progena

12-10-2007, 22:40

Ok, I'd like to point something out here. A thousand years of experience doesn't neccesary make you ten times as skilled as someone with one hundred years of experience. It can take less than a human lifetime to master a martial art. At some point you reach the physical limit of your body and mind. Eldar have an upper limit too. An Exarch of a thousand years will perhaps have experienced every type of combat situations, he's less likely to make a mistake because he's ruitinated. But that definatly doesn't mean he can slaughter a unit of ten marines, with at least twenty times his bodymass combined, singlehandedly without taking a scratch.

If you were up against a heavily armoured knight with a broadsword taller than you are, the only logical choice would be to drop your rapier and run like the wind, even though you may have been a professional duellist. If you instead try to stab him in the eye... remember to make your peace with God first.

Of course I'm a bit biased as I've never seen anything but total carnage when people take on someone bigger than themselves.

Captain Stern

12-10-2007, 22:43

Rockerfella: Onto a more serious note: No one ever, at any point, said that marines weren't 'pretty hard' you know? No one said that. In fact, we've all agreed they are 'uber'. However, there are things in the galaxy equally as 'uber', such as Aspect Warriors. There are things more uber, such as Exarchs. There are things even more uber still, such as Harlequins and Phoenix Lords. There are then things even more Uber still, like the Solitaires for example. Thats all just within the Eldar infantry. I guess this is all about perspective. Marines are hard, yes, but please, guys, lets be honest with ourselves, there are things out there, such as the afore listed nasties, that are equally as, if not more 'hard'. They may not be as strong or as tough, but they're faster and certainly built to kill you just as quickly or efficiently, if not more so.

If we talk about real aliens, then it all gets a little scary how comparativley 'uber' marines really are.

Since 99%+ of the background disagrees with you that Aspect Warriors are the equals of space marines, those are some bold statements you're making. Some evidence to back up your claims might help.

Exarchs, on the other hand, I'd say, based on the background and the rules( in all editions), are harder than most marines, though not a captain or a decent veteran. Phoenix Lords, again based on both the background and the rules, seem to be better in a fight than most captains and chapter masters but, of course, there are exceptions (Ragnar Blackmane springs to mind, background and rules-wise). In 2nd edition, at least, Solitaires were weaker than Phoenix Lords.

Considering the Eldar are that old and possess technology beyond compare they SHOULD be better than they're portrayed in the background (and even more so in the rules) but the fact is, based on their portrayals in all that GW have published, the fact is they're simply not all that tough compared to space marines.