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Topic: The Historical Jesus... (Read 1219 times)

I've been taking an Intro to the Bible class to fulfill requirements for my minor and today we had to watch a film about "Searching for Jesus" with Peter Jennings. This class has been rough because its entirely based on scholarly opinions rather than actual facts and the witness of ancient Jews and ancient Christians. The film itself presents the opinions of men like Marcus Borg (who I don't consider to be a Christian) and N.T. Wright. Thankfully they didn't add the idiot Bart Ehrman to the mix, and its a good thing they at least allowed N.T. Wright to be in the video because he is the one voice of reason among the so-called scholars.

The video challenged many traditional ideas about Jesus, such as the idea that he was born in Nazareth rather than Bethlehem, that the story was an adoption of pagan stories or that he was actually illegitimate, that his "kingdom of God" preaching was purely political and aimed at Herod Antipas and against the Roman Authorities rather than theological, or that the locations in Bethlehem and Nazareth can't really be the original sites because there is no evidence for it...

Some of the interesting points was they asked people what they thought Jesus looked like and you had many Protestants who were saying blue-eyed, etc... Some Arabs were saying tall... Yet they were showing icons which showed him with brown eyes (irony?). They then asked scholars who said dark-complexion, bearded (since shaving was a luxury), short... N.T. Wright simply said that if you were to go to Bethlehem and walk outside and see the sun-baked worker with a turban on and his eyes shut against the sun and dirty from the sand, that is the closest we could come today. What bothers me, is that they don't realize or mention that icons aren't realistic depictions, and in fact, they are far more "realistic" to the true Christ than western art often was because the noses, eyes and heads are distorted to portray symbolism, even if we know a Saint's nose was wide and flat, it will still be depicted in iconography as long and thin.

They also suggested that the parables of Christ were purely political and aimed at the Romans and also against Herod Antipas.

After taking this class and having to listen to opinions like this, I think I've just come to the conclusion that non-Christians (this includes so-called Christians who don't accept the Nicene Creed) should have absolutely no business in Biblical Scholarship and I almost feel like other Christian groups need to start excommunicating members who are abandoning Christianity instead of letting them continue to be members while espousing heretical and atheistic views.

the locations in Bethlehem and Nazareth can't really be the original sites because there is no evidence for it...

This was a crackpot conspiracy theory invented, as far as I know, by a former piano instructor-turned-amateur-historian in a book published a few years ago. It has to do with making uneducated and obvious linguistic comparisons between "nazarite" and "nazareth".

The author of the book attempted to edit their theory into Wikipedia and was promptly shut down. That was the extent of the "scholarly debate" about this topic, especially because Israeli archaeologists uncovered 1st century homes in Nazareth around the time of the "debate".

the locations in Bethlehem and Nazareth can't really be the original sites because there is no evidence for it...

This was a crackpot conspiracy theory invented, as far as I know, by a former piano instructor-turned-amateur-historian in a book published a few years ago. It has to do with making uneducated and obvious linguistic comparisons between "nazarite" and "nazareth".

The author of the book attempted to edit their theory into Wikipedia and was promptly shut down. That was the extent of the "scholarly debate" about this topic, especially because Israeli archaeologists uncovered 1st century homes in Nazareth around the time of the "debate".

The "search for the historical Jesus" failed and will always fail, because it refuses to actually look at the historical Jesus as He is presented in Scripture and Tradition. When one begins the search with, "Miracles can't exist" and "the Bible can't be true," one simply isn't going to find Jesus, but another distortion.

Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

The only real problems I've ever come across with the historicity of the Gospels are the census and the earthquake/eclipse/resurrected people entering Jerusalem during the Crucifixion.

Mike Licona actually has an interesting theory on the passages from Mark concerning the resurrection of the dead. It's found in his book The Resurrection of Jesus. I don't really have time to go through it here, but it's quite interesting if you get a chance to look it up.

Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

The only real problems I've ever come across with the historicity of the Gospels are the census and the earthquake/eclipse/resurrected people entering Jerusalem during the Crucifixion.

The census is, indeed, a tad problematic to me, as well. I've never read a real defense of it, of course I'm not terribly concerned about it either. As for the rest of your comment, I wouldn't be surprised if this was meant to explain how those who had eyes to see and ears to hear experienced things, that is, those who were spiritually aware.

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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?

Update, sadly we are entering into reading Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus", which I'm sure is going to be full of instances of the truth being twisted and distorted.

I'm particularly upset because our idiot teacher assigned the reading for break (honestly, teachers need to get over themselves and not assign us work over breaks) and assigned 21 questions for the reading (we've never had to answer questions for reading before)...

In the video we watched (that I mentioned in my original post), we finished the video and while watching it I identified each so-called "scholar"...

Marvin Meyer - he may be an atheist, I couldn't find anything speaking to his religion, but his statements certainly disqualify him as a ChristianFr. Jerome Murphy-O'Conner - Dominican Priest, though he doesn't seem to come on the side of orthodoxy.John Dominic Crossan - Ex-Catholic Priest, left the Priesthood to marry. Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", thus I would assume he is no longer Roman CatholicMarcus Borg - Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", based on his views in the video, those in his books and based on those in the "Jesus Seminar", though he claims to be Anglican, I don't regard him as a Christian at all.N.T. Wright - It seems Bishop Wright is the only sane and truly "orthodox" person amongst the bunch that were in the video. It truly shows how those who know the Apostolic Faith have to contend against a godless and anti-Christian world, even sometimes from within the realm of Christianity from so-called "Christians".

Now we are moving into reading Bart Ehrman's book, and we finished what we were gonna read from Stephen Harris' "Understanding the Bible Book", which was also pretty clearly liberal or so-called "progressive"...

I guess it is what I get for attending religion courses at a disgustingly liberal school... I would have gotten a better Biblical education over at one of the ultra-conservative Baptist schools.

Update, sadly we are entering into reading Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus", which I'm sure is going to be full of instances of the truth being twisted and distorted.

I'm particularly upset because our idiot teacher assigned the reading for break (honestly, teachers need to get over themselves and not assign us work over breaks) and assigned 21 questions for the reading (we've never had to answer questions for reading before)...

In the video we watched (that I mentioned in my original post), we finished the video and while watching it I identified each so-called "scholar"...

Marvin Meyer - he may be an atheist, I couldn't find anything speaking to his religion, but his statements certainly disqualify him as a ChristianFr. Jerome Murphy-O'Conner - Dominican Priest, though he doesn't seem to come on the side of orthodoxy.John Dominic Crossan - Ex-Catholic Priest, left the Priesthood to marry. Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", thus I would assume he is no longer Roman CatholicMarcus Borg - Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", based on his views in the video, those in his books and based on those in the "Jesus Seminar", though he claims to be Anglican, I don't regard him as a Christian at all.N.T. Wright - It seems Bishop Wright is the only sane and truly "orthodox" person amongst the bunch that were in the video. It truly shows how those who know the Apostolic Faith have to contend against a godless and anti-Christian world, even sometimes from within the realm of Christianity from so-called "Christians".

Now we are moving into reading Bart Ehrman's book, and we finished what we were gonna read from Stephen Harris' "Understanding the Bible Book", which was also pretty clearly liberal or so-called "progressive"...

I guess it is what I get for attending religion courses at a disgustingly liberal school... I would have gotten a better Biblical education over at one of the ultra-conservative Baptist schools.

Ironically enough, you would have gotten a much superior education as a Baptist school (depending on which one it was).

At my own we were required to know all the positions taken on the New Testament, to the point we had to successfully argue from each position. I've found that I often know more about the historical Jesus movement than many of my friends who learned about it (and it alone) and believe it. Of course, not all Baptist schools function that way, but some of them require you to know all positions (many of my MDiv counterparts are currently reading through Nietzsche, Hume, and the like...something you won't get to do at a liberal protestant university).

Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

At my own we were required to know all the positions taken on the New Testament, to the point we had to successfully argue from each position. I've found that I often know more about the historical Jesus movement than many of my friends who learned about it (and it alone) and believe it. Of course, not all Baptist schools function that way, but some of them require you to know all positions (many of my MDiv counterparts are currently reading through Nietzsche, Hume, and the like...something you won't get to do at a liberal protestant university).

At my own we were required to know all the positions taken on the New Testament, to the point we had to successfully argue from each position. I've found that I often know more about the historical Jesus movement than many of my friends who learned about it (and it alone) and believe it. Of course, not all Baptist schools function that way, but some of them require you to know all positions (many of my MDiv counterparts are currently reading through Nietzsche, Hume, and the like...something you won't get to do at a liberal protestant university).

No.

Could you elaborate, or are you saying that I'm lying?

Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

Update, sadly we are entering into reading Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus", which I'm sure is going to be full of instances of the truth being twisted and distorted.

I'm particularly upset because our idiot teacher assigned the reading for break (honestly, teachers need to get over themselves and not assign us work over breaks) and assigned 21 questions for the reading (we've never had to answer questions for reading before)...

In the video we watched (that I mentioned in my original post), we finished the video and while watching it I identified each so-called "scholar"...

Marvin Meyer - he may be an atheist, I couldn't find anything speaking to his religion, but his statements certainly disqualify him as a ChristianFr. Jerome Murphy-O'Conner - Dominican Priest, though he doesn't seem to come on the side of orthodoxy.John Dominic Crossan - Ex-Catholic Priest, left the Priesthood to marry. Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", thus I would assume he is no longer Roman CatholicMarcus Borg - Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", based on his views in the video, those in his books and based on those in the "Jesus Seminar", though he claims to be Anglican, I don't regard him as a Christian at all.N.T. Wright - It seems Bishop Wright is the only sane and truly "orthodox" person amongst the bunch that were in the video. It truly shows how those who know the Apostolic Faith have to contend against a godless and anti-Christian world, even sometimes from within the realm of Christianity from so-called "Christians".

Now we are moving into reading Bart Ehrman's book, and we finished what we were gonna read from Stephen Harris' "Understanding the Bible Book", which was also pretty clearly liberal or so-called "progressive"...

I guess it is what I get for attending religion courses at a disgustingly liberal school... I would have gotten a better Biblical education over at one of the ultra-conservative Baptist schools.

Your professor should be expelled from academia for daring to use Misquoting Jesus as a text for a university course.

Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?

Update, sadly we are entering into reading Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus", which I'm sure is going to be full of instances of the truth being twisted and distorted.

I'm particularly upset because our idiot teacher assigned the reading for break (honestly, teachers need to get over themselves and not assign us work over breaks) and assigned 21 questions for the reading (we've never had to answer questions for reading before)...

In the video we watched (that I mentioned in my original post), we finished the video and while watching it I identified each so-called "scholar"...

Marvin Meyer - he may be an atheist, I couldn't find anything speaking to his religion, but his statements certainly disqualify him as a ChristianFr. Jerome Murphy-O'Conner - Dominican Priest, though he doesn't seem to come on the side of orthodoxy.John Dominic Crossan - Ex-Catholic Priest, left the Priesthood to marry. Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", thus I would assume he is no longer Roman CatholicMarcus Borg - Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", based on his views in the video, those in his books and based on those in the "Jesus Seminar", though he claims to be Anglican, I don't regard him as a Christian at all.N.T. Wright - It seems Bishop Wright is the only sane and truly "orthodox" person amongst the bunch that were in the video. It truly shows how those who know the Apostolic Faith have to contend against a godless and anti-Christian world, even sometimes from within the realm of Christianity from so-called "Christians".

Now we are moving into reading Bart Ehrman's book, and we finished what we were gonna read from Stephen Harris' "Understanding the Bible Book", which was also pretty clearly liberal or so-called "progressive"...

I guess it is what I get for attending religion courses at a disgustingly liberal school... I would have gotten a better Biblical education over at one of the ultra-conservative Baptist schools.

Your professor should be expelled from academia for daring to use Misquoting Jesus as a text for a university course.

I agree, evne if you are being sarcastic (i hope you're not). Bart Ehrman should also have his degrees stripped from him for his apostasy, as well as members of the Jesus Seminar. (who also ought to be excommunicated by their respective Christian groups)

Update, sadly we are entering into reading Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus", which I'm sure is going to be full of instances of the truth being twisted and distorted.

I'm particularly upset because our idiot teacher assigned the reading for break (honestly, teachers need to get over themselves and not assign us work over breaks) and assigned 21 questions for the reading (we've never had to answer questions for reading before)...

In the video we watched (that I mentioned in my original post), we finished the video and while watching it I identified each so-called "scholar"...

Marvin Meyer - he may be an atheist, I couldn't find anything speaking to his religion, but his statements certainly disqualify him as a ChristianFr. Jerome Murphy-O'Conner - Dominican Priest, though he doesn't seem to come on the side of orthodoxy.John Dominic Crossan - Ex-Catholic Priest, left the Priesthood to marry. Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", thus I would assume he is no longer Roman CatholicMarcus Borg - Co-Founder of the "Jesus Seminar", based on his views in the video, those in his books and based on those in the "Jesus Seminar", though he claims to be Anglican, I don't regard him as a Christian at all.N.T. Wright - It seems Bishop Wright is the only sane and truly "orthodox" person amongst the bunch that were in the video. It truly shows how those who know the Apostolic Faith have to contend against a godless and anti-Christian world, even sometimes from within the realm of Christianity from so-called "Christians".

Now we are moving into reading Bart Ehrman's book, and we finished what we were gonna read from Stephen Harris' "Understanding the Bible Book", which was also pretty clearly liberal or so-called "progressive"...

I guess it is what I get for attending religion courses at a disgustingly liberal school... I would have gotten a better Biblical education over at one of the ultra-conservative Baptist schools.

Your professor should be expelled from academia for daring to use Misquoting Jesus as a text for a university course.

I agree, evne if you are being sarcastic (i hope you're not). Bart Ehrman should also have his degrees stripped from him for his apostasy, as well as members of the Jesus Seminar. (who also ought to be excommunicated by their respective Christian groups)

I was in no way being sarcastic. Any professor who would use that book as a university text needs to be removed from his position, as he is either an idiot, an incompetent, extremely lazy, or disinterested in truth.

Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?

Don't know about Misquoting Jesus, but I've been reading Erhman's Did Jesus Exist the last few days and it's the most enjoyable book I've read in a couple years.

I take this back. Well, not entirely. It was an enjoyable read, but the more I read the more I thought "this guy isn't a very good theologian, is he?" Not just because I disagreed with what he was saying, but even when I was open to what he was saying it still seemed underwhelming. Ahh well, I did gain some insights into the amount of historical evidence we have for Jesus, so I suppose he accomplished his main goal.