So you're going to ignore everything that I said except for the fact that I'm a libertarian? Should I take that as your concession that you are, in fact, a partisan Democrat?

Also, no, liberty isn't based on morals. Liberty is a word that describes the freedom to act according to one's own will and without the interference of anyone else's will. Liberty is man's natural state. In a vacuum free of any other people, a human being has liberty.

That said, yes, all governments are based on morals. Our government, as is made crystal clear in the language of our founding documents, was based largely around the moral value of individual liberty, which is coincidentally the highest political-philosophical value for most libertarians. Each citizen being free to follow their -own- morals as opposed to someone else forcing them to conduct themselves in any particular way.

The concession to morality therein is that the right to self-determination ends at the point at which one forces their will onto someone else. -Individual- rights. Live and let live.

What you're talking about is a moral issue that doesn't involve one citizen using force against another. . . nowhere do our founding documents necessitate that a fetus is a human or a citizen. The fetus's status as a full-fledged human is purely a philosophical argument and nothing that necessarily affects any human being other than the mother. Therefore, I see no reason for government intervention for moral purposes as the immoral act can be said to be victimless. I don't agree with these particular definitions, but again I feel that this potentially enforces my moral will on people who aren't necessarily affecting anyone but themselves.

Next up, "Government is always bad" is a hopelessly fuckin stupid simplification of libertarian philosophy. What that describes is the philosophy of an anarchist, which is not the same thing.

A libertarian believes that government is a necessary evil to ensure that each individual's rights are protected from other individuals and groups who would force their will upon others.

Also, this people run the government, put your trust in the people, the people will be the best America always. . . um. . . what!?

I'm guessing this odd tangent is your way of doubling down on the same concept that drives your beliefs regarding the mainstream media? Popularity = correctness?

What about when "the people" believed the Earth was flat? What about when "the people" believed man would never fly? What about when "the people" believed that "the people" of African decent weren't really "people"?

Sorry, but the masses don't know shit and Fox News didn't tell me anything of the sort. History books did.

Speaking of Fox News, how is it that you've come under the mistaken belief that libertarians take their queues from Fox News? John Stossel and Judge Napolitano are the only libertarians on that entire network. Stossel has a 1 hr spot weekly during some shit ratings window and Napolitano doesn't even have a show, just guest spots here and there.

Most of Fox News tends to side with harder right republican types, particularly those in the "establishment", and most libertarians, myself included, consider most of Fox News to be republican party cheerleaders and not a balanced source of information. Fox pushed Romney, libertarians voted Paul. Fox pushes Christian social values and conservative social engineering, libertarians tend to value the government staying as far out of social issues as possible. You're seriously confusing several different factions when you make the implication that Fox News is a guiding influence on libertarian opinions.

It's actually even more ironic because your entire schtick is that people should think for themselves in stead of following blindly behind a party platform. Libertarians are an example of exactly that, and yet you mistakenly paint them as the republican rank and file. Sorry, but that rank and file is pretty far from libertarian. That rank and file tends toward socially conservative statism and most libertarians, myself included, don't approve.

Seriously, if you're going to go so far out of your way to bash libertarianism, figure out wtf you're bashing first. The only thing worse than being ignorant is being hostile and opinionated about it. You should've started your post off with, "We don't take kindly to your type around these here parts!"

Edit: I keep mixing up queues and cues lately. I gotta lay off the weed.

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Again, your first sentence says it all and I don't have to read any further. You stated that you are a Libertarian, I didn't put those words into your mouth. I never stated I was a Democrat, you did. You seem to have some things you need to work out so go do that.

I did breeze through and you are kind of a typical Libertarian. "Liberty over everything" is the Libertarian policy. "DON'T MAKE ME WEAR A SEAT BELT!" Car crashes, the FREEDOM Driver gets injured so bad he'll never be the same...who has the Liberty in this scenario....The driver or the family that have to modify their life around the person that refused to wear a seat belt. Who has more Liberty. The Insurance payers who's premiums went up because of this situation, or the FREEDOM Driver.

I think all parties should have an extreme focus on Liberty. But when your only focus is Liberty, you start making bad judgements. I tend to use the "Risk vs. Necessity" process I invented when determining if something should be a Liberty (I know, you don't have to think about it, it's easy for you) Seat belt, how hard is it to put on, how much does it infringe that person's Liberty putting it on. And what is the possible outcome of not putting it on.

It's nothing against you or Libertarians. I just know platforms and all platforms think the same for the most part. It's why I'm Anti-Party

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So you fancy yourself an independent thinker. . .

Yet when you argue with me, you don't actually respond to -ANYTHING- that I've said, you just spew common misconceptions about libertarians.

Sorry, but anti-party or not, you're not a thinker, independent or otherwise. This is the worst kind of intellectual fear/laziness, and you're even more guilty of it than the partisan ideologues that you bash. Frankly, I can't even fathom how someone could be so interested in politics that they'd waste time arguing it on a message board, but not actually interested enough to research their opinions. For that matter, how can you want to argue but not want to be argued with? Sad, really.

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I gave you time. You openly profiled yourself as a whole very quickly in all of your posts. Libertarians don't have to elaborate at all, the concept is EXTREMELY SIMPLE. Yet they always feel the need to...

Ron Paul is awesome but he's probably the only one. You do realize that Libertarians think we should be able to own armed tanks and drive them in the streets. They think we should own war ships. They think we should let our kids carry guns in school. Because Liberty is the only focus of Libertarians, not the consequences of the action taken.

I STUDY ALL PARTIES. It's much more work than any party person will ever do. Party people watch their bias media and think that what their bias media teaches them is what the other parties are...

If a Right Winger would watch Jon Stewart, he/she would be much more informed. If a Left Winger would watch Mike Huckabee, he/she would be much more informed. The Tea Party is the profit party, nothing else matters to them and the people are sold out. Libertarians are Liberty no matter what.

It's really pretty basic. If you take my stance, you can be part of all parties. And an outcast of all parties. I believe in a Fiscal Conservative America that isn't fast to change and thinks about it's changes. But I do believe in change because you would have to be completely uneducated not to believe in it. Once you learn something, you have changed. I believe in the people, not the Corporations. Corporations are not people. They are an entity based on profit and NO CORPORATION by law is allowed to force all of it's employee's to vote a specific way, which means, Corporations are not people unless they all vote the same way.

The irony is that once Corporations get blocked from thinking for the people, the people will find true Liberty. True OPINIONS instead of sheeple based media that feeds us one liners.

True Liberty is the ability to think for yourself and stand up for it. Sometimes against people who are farmed to think they know what Liberty is.

Everyone does have access to birth control./contraceptives, yet abortion still exists. Maybe if your brain could think beyond one topic you would realize how stupid it sounds to claim that one topic is all that matters.

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Everyone with money...

But the inability to think beyond ones self is a hard obstacle for some. WELCOME TO POLITICS

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You're seriously arguing that the problem is that abortion is less cost prohibitive than, say, condoms or morning after pills?

Please, find me those numbers

I'm starting to wonder why I'm still bothering with you. For having -no- idea what you're talking about, you sure say a lot of stuff.

Also, when did birth control become at -all- cost prohibitive? For several years, I could afford ramen diets and a corner in the living room of a 1 bedroom apartment where I could put my bed, which was 2 mattresses stacked on each other. Still managed to wrap my dick up in those days, and if I didn't have my parachute, I didn't jump.

If you can't afford your own birth control, maybe you shouldn't fuck until you get ahold of some. Just a thought from someone for whom that philosophy seems to have paid off. Hormones or no, every individual is responsible for his or her own actions. I'm a victim to the human condition just like the rest of us and somehow I've been able to turn down sex when it was a bad idea, even during periods of my life where sex was pretty hard to come by. If you can't take similar responsibility for yourself, I have no interest in coming out of pocket to help you fix your mistakes.

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I never stated this at all...

"You're seriously arguing that the problem is that abortion is less cost prohibitive than, say, condoms or morning after pills?"

You simply failed when you somehow thought birth control was free and now you are trying to 180. Or something, I'm not sure your thought process here. Last post you were arguing that birth control is free and now you are making this jump.

What would happen if every Religious organization used donations to cover the cost of birth control, morning after and condoms.

Would this mean they denied their morals or would this mean they accepted that we are all sinners? Guess what, if we don't sin, we don't die, we are ALL SINNERS in one way shape or form. The problem with religion has always been the sinners who tend to focus on other sinners, "yea, they are terrible people, I'm holy". EVERYONE SINS. DO NOT JUDGE OR BE JUDGED.

The sooner religion is willing to accept that we have sinners and none of us are Jesus like, the better. Children have hormones. Accidents happen. And politicians who have affairs change their tune once they get the mistress preggo.

Pay for the problem prevention and there will be no debate about abortion.

But that is a CONSERVATIVE thought topic. $ vs. Abortion. Knowing that $ could end the necessity of Abortion is enough for me. How about you?

Again, your first sentence says it all and I don't have to read any further. You stated that you are a Libertarian, I didn't put those words into your mouth. I never stated I was a Democrat, you did. You seem to have some things you need to work out so go do that.

I did breeze through and you are kind of a typical Libertarian. "Liberty over everything" is the Libertarian policy. "DON'T MAKE ME WEAR A SEAT BELT!" Car crashes, the FREEDOM Driver gets injured so bad he'll never be the same...who has the Liberty in this scenario....The driver or the family that have to modify their life around the person that refused to wear a seat belt. Who has more Liberty. The Insurance payers who's premiums went up because of this situation, or the FREEDOM Driver.

I think all parties should have an extreme focus on Liberty. But when your only focus is Liberty, you start making bad judgements. I tend to use the "Risk vs. Necessity" process I invented when determining if something should be a Liberty (I know, you don't have to think about it, it's easy for you) Seat belt, how hard is it to put on, how much does it infringe that person's Liberty putting it on. And what is the possible outcome of not putting it on.

It's nothing against you or Libertarians. I just know platforms and all platforms think the same for the most part. It's why I'm Anti-Party

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So you fancy yourself an independent thinker. . .

Yet when you argue with me, you don't actually respond to -ANYTHING- that I've said, you just spew common misconceptions about libertarians.

Sorry, but anti-party or not, you're not a thinker, independent or otherwise. This is the worst kind of intellectual fear/laziness, and you're even more guilty of it than the partisan ideologues that you bash. Frankly, I can't even fathom how someone could be so interested in politics that they'd waste time arguing it on a message board, but not actually interested enough to research their opinions. For that matter, how can you want to argue but not want to be argued with? Sad, really.

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I gave you time. You openly profiled yourself as a whole very quickly in all of your posts. Libertarians don't have to elaborate at all, the concept is EXTREMELY SIMPLE. Yet they always feel the need to...

Ron Paul is awesome but he's probably the only one. You do realize that Libertarians think we should be able to own armed tanks and drive them in the streets. They think we should own war ships. They think we should let our kids carry guns in school. Because Liberty is the only focus of Libertarians, not the consequences of the action taken.

I STUDY ALL PARTIES. It's much more work than any party person will ever do. Party people watch their bias media and think that what their bias media teaches them is what the other parties are...

If a Right Winger would watch Jon Stewart, he/she would be much more informed. If a Left Winger would watch Mike Huckabee, he/she would be much more informed. The Tea Party is the profit party, nothing else matters to them and the people are sold out. Libertarians are Liberty no matter what.

It's really pretty basic. If you take my stance, you can be part of all parties. And an outcast of all parties. I believe in a Fiscal Conservative America that isn't fast to change and thinks about it's changes. But I do believe in change because you would have to be completely uneducated not to believe in it. Once you learn something, you have changed. I believe in the people, not the Corporations. Corporations are not people. They are an entity based on profit and NO CORPORATION by law is allowed to force all of it's employee's to vote a specific way, which means, Corporations are not people unless they all vote the same way.

The irony is that once Corporations get blocked from thinking for the people, the people will find true Liberty. True OPINIONS instead of sheeple based media that feeds us one liners.

True Liberty is the ability to think for yourself and stand up for it. Sometimes against people who are farmed to think they know what Liberty is.

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If you study all parties, why do you not know what the Tea Party platform is? Why are your ideas about what libertarians stand for so far off the actual mark? Define study lol

The more you speak about libertarians and tea partiers, the more I'm convinced that you know nothing about libertarians and even less about the tea party. You talk about party ideologues not doing their research, yet with every ignorant opinion you spew you show us all that you, yourself, don't research -shit-. The very fact that you consider Jon Stewart or even Mike Huckaby legitimate sources of news, in fact, shows me that you wouldn't even know where to begin researching the shit you're talking about. The latter is a cheerleader for the republican party who I've never seen stray from the party line, and the former isn't even attempting to be a serious news source. The Daily Show is comedy, dude! Jon Stewart knowingly mischaracterizes facts and statements for the sake of making jokes. Delivering news is a peripheral function of that show at best. You gotta be fucking kidding me!

You just go on and continue to attack everything that your uninformed pals have told you libertarians are and, by all means, continue to do so without researching your opinions.

Also, don't look up what tea partiers actually stand for. I'm sure MSNBC's given you a pretty good arsenal of random accusations to assume are facts. Also, do continue to ignore the fact that none of the super rich support the tea party, and continue to confuse them with Karl Rove's ilk.

I'd hate for you to have to actually look this shit up and risk challenging your own omniscience.

Lastly, block the corporations from thinking for the people? All those corporations can do is speak. They can't -force- you to believe them. If the corporations are thinking for the people, that means the people are willingly conceding their cognitive functions to whoever's on TV. IF they won't think for themselves, fuck 'em. Let's try not to shit on the 1st Amendment just because most people are too fuckin dumb not to be swayed by the loudest speaker.

Yet when you argue with me, you don't actually respond to -ANYTHING- that I've said, you just spew common misconceptions about libertarians.

Sorry, but anti-party or not, you're not a thinker, independent or otherwise. This is the worst kind of intellectual fear/laziness, and you're even more guilty of it than the partisan ideologues that you bash. Frankly, I can't even fathom how someone could be so interested in politics that they'd waste time arguing it on a message board, but not actually interested enough to research their opinions. For that matter, how can you want to argue but not want to be argued with? Sad, really.

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I gave you time. You openly profiled yourself as a whole very quickly in all of your posts. Libertarians don't have to elaborate at all, the concept is EXTREMELY SIMPLE. Yet they always feel the need to...

Ron Paul is awesome but he's probably the only one. You do realize that Libertarians think we should be able to own armed tanks and drive them in the streets. They think we should own war ships. They think we should let our kids carry guns in school. Because Liberty is the only focus of Libertarians, not the consequences of the action taken.

I STUDY ALL PARTIES. It's much more work than any party person will ever do. Party people watch their bias media and think that what their bias media teaches them is what the other parties are...

If a Right Winger would watch Jon Stewart, he/she would be much more informed. If a Left Winger would watch Mike Huckabee, he/she would be much more informed. The Tea Party is the profit party, nothing else matters to them and the people are sold out. Libertarians are Liberty no matter what.

It's really pretty basic. If you take my stance, you can be part of all parties. And an outcast of all parties. I believe in a Fiscal Conservative America that isn't fast to change and thinks about it's changes. But I do believe in change because you would have to be completely uneducated not to believe in it. Once you learn something, you have changed. I believe in the people, not the Corporations. Corporations are not people. They are an entity based on profit and NO CORPORATION by law is allowed to force all of it's employee's to vote a specific way, which means, Corporations are not people unless they all vote the same way.

The irony is that once Corporations get blocked from thinking for the people, the people will find true Liberty. True OPINIONS instead of sheeple based media that feeds us one liners.

True Liberty is the ability to think for yourself and stand up for it. Sometimes against people who are farmed to think they know what Liberty is.

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If you study all parties, why do you not know what the Tea Party platform is? Why are your ideas about what libertarians stand for so far off the actual mark? Define study lol

The more you speak about libertarians and tea partiers, the more I'm convinced that you know nothing about libertarians and even less about the tea party. You talk about party ideologues not doing their research, yet with every ignorant opinion you spew you show us all that you, yourself, don't research -shit-. The very fact that you consider Jon Stewart or even Mike Huckaby legitimate sources of news, in fact, shows me that you wouldn't even know where to begin researching the shit you're talking about. The latter is a cheerleader for the republican party who I've never seen stray from the party line, and the former isn't even attempting to be a serious news source. The Daily Show is comedy, dude! Jon Stewart knowingly mischaracterizes facts and statements for the sake of making jokes. Delivering news is a peripheral function of that show at best. You gotta be fucking kidding me!

You just go on and continue to attack everything that your uninformed pals have told you libertarians are and, by all means, continue to do so without researching your opinions.

Also, don't look up what tea partiers actually stand for. I'm sure MSNBC's given you a pretty good arsenal of random accusations to assume are facts. Also, do continue to ignore the fact that none of the super rich support the tea party, and continue to confuse them with Karl Rove's ilk.

I'd hate for you to have to actually look this shit up and risk challenging your own omniscience.

Lastly, block the corporations from thinking for the people? All those corporations can do is speak. They can't -force- you to believe them. If the corporations are thinking for the people, that means the people are willingly conceding their cognitive functions to whoever's on TV. IF they won't think for themselves, fuck 'em. Let's try not to shit on the 1st Amendment just because most people are too fuckin dumb not to be swayed by the loudest speaker.

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I stood in all parties trying to find common sense.

Ask your Libertarian leader if Americans should have the Liberty to own an aircraft carrier. He/she will tell you yes. Ask your Libertarian leader if people should be allowed to own an armed tank, they will state yes. Libertarians are the reason for the backwards logic gun displays creating panic that make people want to ban guns such as Starbucks and Chipotle. Gun ownership isn't STUPID amounts of freedom, it's a responsibility to be thought about.

But Libertarians and Tea party are all about profits for Corporations. They are just more up front than most parties. Tea party is absolutely IN YOUR FACE PROFIT party.

The tea party holds every platform ideology except for "Free market" . Basically the same with the Libertarian party, but the Libertarians have a side note of drugs.

The Commerce Clause of the Constitution allows the Government to regulate Commerce. The Free Market Concept is a movement to push the people out of politics in order to allow businesses to think for the people instead of the other way around. Think China, they have "smog days" when the smog is too bad for kids to go to school. Do you want a Free Market or Regulations that prevent Smog days?

The Daily Show is on Comedy Central. That's fact. But I'm sick of people who can't stand to watch it just because it's comedy. It's more full of information than Fox News is all day and that's a fact. I'm sure people can get through the jokes if they try hard...heh. I mean, the reason it's comedy is probably YOU!

As I stated before, receive input from all parties. If you think MSNBC is the best source, then the joke is on you.

Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are the best Leftist news sources hands down.

If you don't agree that Mike Huckabee is the best Right Wing news source then I'm all ears. There isn't much education on Fox News. Or maybe someone can name someone that is more informed. Please say Hannity, O'Reilly, or better yet....please...please say Beck..

Totalitarian states love voting. You get people to the polls and they register their approval. I know there is a difference-they have one party and we have two parties. We have one more party than they have, you see. -Howard Zinn

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I would love to see a proportional representative, multiparty, coalition based government in the US.

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