The Daily Lard 8-2-11

Douglas LeeAug 2, 2011 7:58 AM

Good Morning, Broncos fans! In an interesting and pleasantly surprising development, Mike Klis says T Ryan Harris is likely to re-sign with the team. Throughout the offseason, it has been almost a foregone conclusion that Harris would leave, perhaps to rejoin Shanny in Washington or head to Houston with Kubes. None of the Broncos' brass ever brought up Harris' name voluntarily when discussing the offensive line this offseason, and they even gave draftee Orlando Franklin his jersey number the other day, so they obviously didn't expect the guy back, either. But bringing Harris back could prove an extremely valuable transaction to the team, perhaps buying Franklin the time to learn his new position gradually, or if Franklin impresses, Harris will instantly become one of the best backup tackles in the league.

Meanwhile, the Broncos will only have to pay new DE Derrick Harvey the $600K minimum, and Brodrick Bunkley will make $685K (the fifth-year minimum has been raised from the $635K figure I cited yesterday). Harvey is expected to back up both Elvis Dumervil and Robert Ayers, while the pick Denver dealt to Philly for Bunkley is a conditional 2013 choice. In other great financial news, Denver is paying new TEs Daniel Fells and Dante Rosario one-year veteran minimum contracts. To make room for Bunkley and Harvey, the Broncos released S Nick Polk, who had signed a futures contract in January, and CB James Rogers, who was signed as an undrafted rookie last week.

Broncos

LenDale White (back) and D.J. Williams (thigh) missed practice again yesterday, while the Ayers/Nate Irving jersey drama had a happy ending - each will get to wear their college numbers (91 and 56, respectively).

Andrew Mason says Rosario has the versatility to play FB as well as TE, while Fells is a strong blocker, and he thinks the team may only keep three TEs - the two draft choices and only one of the four vets.

Champ Bailey and Eddie Royal praised ex-mate Brandon Marshall for his coming public about his mental disorder.

Legwold on the awkwardness of newly signed players having to wait until Thursday to practice.

Captain Analysis interprets the Broncos' release of aging players signed by Josh McDaniels who were essentially placeholders until younger talent emerged as John Fox & Co. not liking McDaniels' players.

Among his brief thoughts on the team, Pat Kirwan says the Broncos need to trade Tebow Orton and see what they have in Orton Tebow.

We got Ty Warren. Excellent. Now an OL would be great. How annoying am I?

Posted by Orange and Blue on 2011-08-03 01:55:25

drew, mind numbing is exactly the term I&#8217d use.

Posted by Orange and Blue on 2011-08-03 01:52:17

o&b, True, there has always been the clueless-hater-at-the-water-cooler element to every fan base. I remember the old DPO boards, where &#8216fans&#8217 congregated to talk about how much horseface sucked and all that. This was happening as Denver spooled off on a 18 game winning streak bookended by two SB championships. The problem is, the media has begun to mimic those guys, and they seem to have won over a large otherwise reasonable portion of the fan base. I mean, come on!!! Anybody that expected Tim Tebow to be a polished pocket passer going into his second camp is being ridiculous, and the idea that the book has been written on his potential&#8212eight days into his second camp&#8212is just bad satire. Almost as ridiculous is this equally strong disdain for Kyle Orton. I admittedly do not believe that Orton is a guy you build around, but to hate a man who has faced a difficult all around situation with dignity and class is mind blowing to me. There is actually an element of the fan base that is collectively vowing to quit on the Broncos if they start Kyle Orton. Its mind numbing. Worse, it just doesn&#8217t seem like much fun to me.

I don&#8217t know&#8230just rambling I guess.

Posted by Drewthorn on 2011-08-03 01:14:13

Harris signed with philly

Posted by NDbronco on 2011-08-02 23:48:55

drew, I think the fan base always has some small or large split (correlated to wins & losses). But I think in general, we are made more aware of the divisive nature of a team&#8217s following (esp when they don&#8217t win) b/c of the ability for anyone/everyone to comment and be read. I know in the past I always had fellow Broncos fans that were either unhappy or wished for change (pre-Super Bowls and post). More people seem to have time on their hands to visit sites and express themselves also. Maybe we&#8217ve become &#8220too connected&#8221 <img alt="smile" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/smile.gif" style="border:0;" width="19">

Posted by Orange and Blue on 2011-08-02 23:46:12

I started listening to sports radio again for some reason&#8212spend a lot of time driving&#8212and Tebow/Orton was the theme of the day for all the ESPN guys. By the end of the day, Tebow had morphed into some sadsack little engine that couldn&#8217t, and the Broncos were portrayed as a team on the verge of revolt&#8212they apparently (and collectively) have all determined that Orton is the second coming of Jesus (or John) and that Tebow is a scrappy little fella and all that, but as a football player, mostly a business gimmick. I mean, really, if SNL thought it all up, it would have been brilliant.

I have no strong position on the thing. The optimist in me can see Denver fielding a surprisingly effective and salty defense, and with good, solid, mistake free QB play, this team can easily be the new KC, only better. Yet if this team is really an underdog talent wise, I&#8217d rather see the gamer get valuable experience. Either way, I&#8217ll love them Broncos, and root my ass off for and defend whoever the QB is to the last. I&#8217m not sure why Bronco Country has become an almost surreal battleground over just about everything. Ironically, I think it has to do with the fact that we&#8217ve faced little adversity as a fan base. We&#8217ve been overly blessed by success and perpetual contention and now we tend to act like spoiled little girls when things don&#8217t go exactly our way.

...wow, I had more to say than I thought.

Posted by Drewthorn on 2011-08-02 23:37:57

@prospector1: Just a note about Fox and Clauson. In 2009 when DelHomme went down with 5 games to go, Matt Moore took over. He finished the season with a 94% QB rating. Looked like a sure thing for 2010. DelHomme was let go to Cleveland and Clauson was drafted. Matt Moore did not do so well. Clauson was started in game 3 to get a spark.

Might be in the back of his mind about TT.

This talk about who should be the starting QB is, IMO, part of why players are not coming here. Dangling your best QB as trade bait?? Come on!! Is that the way to inspire a winning spirit in your team?? Are players willing to come here to play with a QB who has seen negligible time (3 games) as a NFL QB? I sure as hell wouldn&#8217t. I would want to go somewhere where there is a spirit that we want to win every game. NFL players know how hard it is for a NFL QB to come into his own.

End of rant. Sorry if I made your eyes burn to read it.

On that note - I am not opposed to playing TT. I say play Orton more and TT less. Let him grow into it. If he is handed the reins without winning them, he could end up being a slacker or get killed because he is not ready.

Posted by BlackKnight on 2011-08-02 23:01:29

I take back what I said about EFX&#8217s patience paying off. Ryan Harris went to Philly, just like everyone else. It&#8217s a shame, too. He would&#8217ve really solidified our line.

Posted by Royalwithcheese on 2011-08-02 22:30:50

whether it was Spags, McD or Raheem as coach in 2009, this team was a proverbial ponzi scheme (sorry John). Shanahan had built a team around several talented players and the rest&#8230well, crap. No matter who the coach was, this team was going to suck and it was going to show at some point soon (game 7 on of the McD era).

The 6-0 start to the McD was a curse in the end for McD. Too much too soon on the expectation front. McD scrambled and panicked after that and the ship began to take on water faster. He was doomed by many factors (injuries, draft strategy, defensive coordinators, etc&#8230), but realistically, the result was never going to change. This third season (if not previously fired) would have been the last for some other coach, as they would still have struggled to win 8 games this yr. Just my opinion.

You&#8217re stating that the team is in worse shape, but haven&#8217t given any examples to support it. If you can name any players that McD let go that we need back, please list them. Who should have never been let go? Pouty-pants? That um, accident prone WR? That TE that made a few good plays but quit on the season when the Broncos still had a playoff spot? Ben Hamilton? Tyler Polumbus?

If Richard Quinn gets cut because the new TEs are better, Quinn will get picked up by another team. Where are Chad Mustard and Nate Jackson right now? I&#8217ll admit Jarvis Green didn&#8217t work out. Was it worst than Simeon Rice? Pippy Bongstockings didn&#8217t work out. It cost the Broncos a late 4th to get Maroney. A late 4th set the Broncos back years? Really?

Posted by Piper A R on 2011-08-02 21:43:07

I guess it took Abrayu Franklin signing a one-year deal with the Saints for me to finally see the light. Free agents really don&#8217t want to come to Denver. I know that&#8217s been a mantra here for a few days, but I just didn&#8217t want to believe it. Keeping that in mind, EFX haven&#8217t done half bad. I still want to see Harris back in the fold and find some value for Orton, though.

Posted by Royalwithcheese on 2011-08-02 21:37:39

Piper, what&#8217s really cool about discussions is that anyone can cherry pick some &#8220facts&#8221 to substantiate an opinion. Heck, I could make Hitler look good, if I wanted, because even Hitler did some good things.

McDaniels sucked. He mismanaged the team. Plain and simple. The team was in worse shape because now it&#8217s going to take another 2-3 years to rebuild, when that is what McDaniels should&#8217ve accomplished during his tenure. So, this is now going to be a minimum 5-year investment just to get the team headed the right direction.

Oh, I&#8217m no Shanny-boy. In fact, I was asking for Shanny to be removed waaaay back at the end of the Griese era.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 21:00:32

&#8220As for right now Denver is tied for the best record in the NFL.&#8221

Correct. Right now, the Broncos are undefeated and tied for first place. Meanwhile, the Chargers, Chiefs and Raiders all have yet to win a single game and are all in last.

Posted by Piper A R on 2011-08-02 20:37:53

For prescription meds, I suggest a chill pill. Nothing has happened yet, nothing to get worked up about. There&#8217s a lot of time left before the season starts and a lot of situations that could play out in a number of ways.

Posted by Piper A R on 2011-08-02 20:34:48

&#8220Chibronx, yeah I know the 2008 team lacked depth. And, McDanielsâ mismanagement only made things worse.&#8221

From a roster standpoint, 2008 was the low point for the Broncos. Josh McD clearly left the roster in better shape than it had been when he arrived. Shanny fanboys and McD haters are in denial about how bad it was in 2008. Let&#8217s start with the defense that had seven starters that are out of the NFL. Think about it. The Broncos cut seven defensive starters that 31 other teams didn&#8217t even want as backups. Seven. Starters. 31 teams do not want. At all. Add to that Selvin Young and Andre Hall. Don&#8217t like Russ Hochstein? That&#8217s fine, but can anyone make a case that the backups Hochstein replaced were better?

Now Denver is cutting some of the vets that Josh McD brought in. What&#8217s different is that instead of Shanny&#8217s players that were cut because they sucked, McD&#8217s players (Bannan and Hill) were cut because of age and/or salary. Bannan has already signed with another team. Hill might.

The roster still has a ways to go, but it&#8217s vastly improved from 2008.

Posted by Piper A R on 2011-08-02 20:32:45

In the NFL whether a team wins or loses a game usually comes down to 4 or 5 plays. Sometimes bad teams win like Kansas City. Some times good teams loose like San Diego. To say a NFL team is going to be a loser before the season starts is really quite lame. Every year there is a worst to first team. several playoff teams last year will not be very good this year. Some depends on luck, some depends on the talent of the team to get an extra foot on 3rd down, some depends on which player gets injured and when. As for right now Denver is tied for the best record in the NFL.

Posted by sleepyteak on 2011-08-02 20:16:53

Prospector, seems like Fox was willing to trade Orton if they got what they wanted.

Give the guy at least half the season before you dump on him.

Oh, and if you break out the bourbon, scotch, and beer&#8230.watch motocross. The season is still in full swing, and it&#8217s the only sport more exciting than football. <img alt="smile" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/smile.gif" style="border:0;" width="19">

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 20:14:29

I agree with OOYE and Piper. I don&#8217t see why there&#8217s so much angst right now only a few days in. Coaches haven&#8217t had OTAs so they&#8217re just getting to know many of the players.

I&#8217m on record supporting a trade now because I don&#8217t see the value in paying Orton $9mil v. what he brings to the table, and I don&#8217t like playing chicken with the franchise tag especially if the level of trade compensation isn&#8217t going to be materially different. He&#8217s a good QB but I don&#8217t think he&#8217s good enough to carry a flawed team.

On the optimistic side I think our defense will be much better this year. I feel we&#8217ll be able to generate more pressure with 4 guys on 3rd downs (with VM playing as an end in those situations) and get off the field more. If the D can just improve on 3rd down efficiency and pluck a few more TOs the team will show a lot better this year.

Posted by acemagoo2001 on 2011-08-02 20:03:00

SpaceCowboy, I&#8217ve already started drinking. By opening day I may be taking prescriptions meds.

Posted by prospector1 on 2011-08-02 19:47:05

@prospector

Hold back on the crushed dreams until the opening day roster is finalized. If Orton is the starting QB then, well that is when you pull out the bourbon, the scotch and the beer and watch something meaningful&#8230.like soccer

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-02 19:31:57

My problem right now is that I do not trust Fox&#8217s judgement. He rolled with Old Jakey-boy till he was way past his prime. He never had back to back winning season in the NFC in a lame division at that time. He actually drafted J. Clausen who Gruden actually criticized. It&#8217s clear that he loves veteran QB&#8217s and Orton will be resigned if he has an average year. In the NFL coaches seldom start young QB&#8217s by choice. They usually roll out the washed up &#8220vet&#8221 until he gets hurt then they roll with the new guy. Being &#8220safe&#8221 doesn&#8217t win squat. Roll with Tebow/Quinn/anyone, but enough of the 3.0 beer Orton&#8230. All the other transactions to me are meaningless, this season for me is over already.. done.. It&#8217s like a bad Griese flashback. We have to see how TEBOW/QUINN play with the starters.. Every practice 1st team rep that goes to Orton is a wasted rep&#8230 Thanks guys for bursting most of the bronco fans around the country&#8217s bubbles. Late, it&#8217s back to my shock therapy sessions.

Posted by prospector1 on 2011-08-02 19:28:14

Chibronx, yeah I know the 2008 team lacked depth. And, McDaniels&#8217 mismanagement only made things worse.

Is Fox better? Dunno. By all accounts, he should be. I guess we&#8217ll see if the team steadily improves after starting out bad (because it will be bad), or if his decisions snowball into a mess that alienates the fans. We hear rumblings of it now (the whole Orton/Tebow thing).

I originally told myself that I wouldn&#8217t judge McDaniels until the latter half of his second year. I thought we&#8217d see improvement not only in the team but also the organization. Unfortunately, it went the other direction.

Hopefully Fox does better. Not because I grew to despise McDaniels, but because I want to our Broncos dominate again. So, I&#8217ll give him the benefit of the doubt as I did early on with McDaniels. But the clock&#8217s ticking&#8230end of next season, I might be on that lynch mob.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 19:12:16

JT&#8212You&#8217re missing an important distinction. Last year&#8217s team lacked depth by necessity, not design. The 2008 team had no depth. In 2009, new systems were installed across the board&#8212and there was a massive shuffling of personnel. Including the 7 defensive starters who left the NFL.

Then at the behest of owners like Bowlen, the CBA was cancelled, meaning the Broncos could effectively sign few people in free agency last year. Put all those things together, and you&#8217d better pray the team stays healthy. It didn&#8217t stay healthy. But being thin wasn&#8217t the plan. The CBA messed up the plan, which was always about long-term depth.

I bring this up because this year&#8217s team is also going to be bad, and we&#8217re soon going to be having these same debates. Some of the new players won&#8217t work. People will struggle with Dennis Allen&#8217s schemes. Orlando Franklin might be slow on the uptake, Nate Irving&#8217s injuries worse, etc.

At that point, it becomes important to distinguish the plan from the execution. Sometimes good ideas don&#8217t work out. Sometimes bad ideas do. There&#8217s a difference, and it will come to the fore when the team&#8217s losing. Losing sight of that, and conflating execution on the field with planning, is probably going to lead to another lynch mob. I never want that, and I&#8217m guess nobody else does, at least right now.

Posted by Chibronx on 2011-08-02 18:56:40

If I might chime in for a minute&#8230

the basic problem is that everyone is getting really worked up over a few days in camp. There are lots of variables to consider.

For example, maybe the coach wants to see what Quinn can do with the 1st team, so he rolls him in. Now the reporters say Tebow was demoted to third string. Is that what it really is?

Most people who read this site realize that Tebow is far from polished. In a pure TC passing competition, Orton will beat the pants of Tebow every day and on Saturday. Sunday might be a different story, but we just won&#8217t know until they play some games.

Tebow reminds me of the early Vick years. A quarterback who could easily score with his arm or legs in college, and we&#8217re asking him to reign it in and just score with his arm. And the funny thing about Tebow is that it was never pretty. But his passing stats are pretty amazing (not %, but effectiveness stats like Y/A, TD/A, int%). He may take a few more years (like Vick) to really sharpen his passing game.

Orton&#8217s an exellent passing QB, but overall, an average QB (using the new TQR metrics). To be very clear, I&#8217m not complaing about having him. In fact, if our backups were clearly worse options, we&#8217d all be pretty happy keeping Orton as the starter.

What people are getting excited about - is do we, or do we not, have something special in Tebow? And while I&#8217d like his passing to keep improving (which it has), I&#8217m real curious to see him in live game situations. See his decision making put to the test. See his running ability when he needs it. See him mature. But I&#8217ll leave all that up to EFX and the coaches.

Posted by OutOfYourElement on 2011-08-02 18:19:56

We need depth at that O-line. I like the approach of not blowing the wad on a few players, but instead being economical and spreading around the talent. Depth is extremely important anywhere you can get it in the NFL. We all saw how &#8220well&#8221 a one-dimensional team performs (last season). I hope we never get to see that mess again.

Oh, Samuels.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 17:40:29

@Kriss: I&#8217m with you on preferring Samuels, although I wouldn&#8217t mind adding either of them. Of course, Tuck would be better than both!

Posted by Royalwithcheese on 2011-08-02 17:38:11

SpaceCowboy, there are quite a few QB&#8217s who could still screw the pooch, given those tools. Some are wreckless and throw it away. Heck, Cutler had his moments of trying to force passes. Orton&#8217s at least relatively safe (at least what we&#8217ve seen).

I hear ya&#8217, and if Tebow came from a college offense that was more behind the center, I&#8217d probably be screaming for Fox to take the chance. But, he didn&#8217t, which is why I&#8217d like to see Tebow earn it. And, I truly hope he does. I&#8217m just not convinced he&#8217s as great as the hype. I&#8217d rather see this team win by running, defense, and protecting the ball than taking a huge chance and throw away possible wins. Every season counts&#8230even the rebuilding ones.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 17:33:21

I was at the SEA game last year and it was one of the best QB performances I&#8217ve seen by non-duke Bronco QB. I think he was something like 7-9 on third down and shredded SEA from the pocket. I just don&#8217t get the whole KO hate, especially the vitriolic, nonsensical stuff.

If you really go back and look at last year, game-to-game, I see no evidence of blatant incompetence on KO&#8217s part. In fact, there were a lot of great games and performances. The bottom line was, the OL was terrible, the running game sucked and KO got his ass kicked for most of the season&#8212especially after the Oakland debacle. Really, go back, game to game and see how many losses you could hang on KO.

He had big, late-game drives against JAX and NYJ, but fell just short. He brought the team back from 20 pts down against SL in the 4th Q to get hit from behind trying to make a play. He played awesome in the tough loss to Indy, where it was the red zone running from 4th and 1 that let the team down. There is no way you could hang the BAL loss on him&#8212maybe the D&#8217s worst game. He was also great against KC the first time around. The SD game he played in was similar to the BAL game&#8212sure he did not play as well, but the D could not stop Rivers for the life of them. I don&#8217t see how you put that one on Kyle. Kyle wasn&#8217t great against SF and had that terrible fumble. This SF game is as close as I&#8217ll come to putting a loss squarely on KO&#8217s shoulders, but with everything else that happened I still can&#8217t do it.

Then you have the absolute embarrassments that were OAK, @KC, and AZ. Sure, Kyle was awful in three of the four (not quite as bad in SF), but these were painful. I think you could hang the AZ game on him for sure, but I won&#8217t. That was a crazy week. The OAK game was a complete team disaster, and if you hear Lloyd tell it, KC was a coaching failure.

I realize I&#8217m doing the major Orton apologist thing here, but this over-the-top emotional, &#8220I&#8217m taking my ball and going home&#8221 stuff about Orton is way over the top and not in line with my reality. I&#8217m actually all for trading him ASAP and seeing what Tebow&#8217s got, but it&#8217s not the end of the world if KO sticks around, IMO.

To prospector&#8217s Memo: there is an emotional juggernaut of a QB in San Diego with a goofy delivery that sat on the bench for two years and seems to have a thing about putting up five TDs every time he plays the Broncos. Sure, he was sitting behind Drew Brees (MUCH better than KO), but it could serve him well. Just sayin&#8217

Posted by ButteBronco on 2011-08-02 17:30:15

@jtomasik

Not rolling over, just tired, very, very tired. And like I said, the thought of Orton starting this year angers me, turns off all hope for anything good this season, and turns me off to the team. My own personal fault, I get very emotionally vested, and unlike most things in life I can&#8217t control this outcome.

But the stupidest argument is &#8220Give Orton a good run game and good defense and he will do great&#8221....WHO WOULDN&#8217T?

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-02 17:28:27

I&#8217ve scanned the Tebow v Orton comments and while some good arguements are made, both sides are missing some very important points. It all depends on the goals, values, and strategy of EFX, which we really don&#8217t know. There are several questions that must be considered.

What is the goal for this season? Is it important to win as many games as possible, or to develop new players? What&#8217s more valuable, possibly winning more games with Orton (how many more games? 2? 4? 6?) or getting Tebow playing time. (The same could be said for many positions, such as RT with Franklin v Harris, if Ryan Harris is back.)

Is it worth the draft picks we could get for Orton, and his salary/cap number, to hold on to Orton for the season?

There&#8217s no reason Orton must be traded right now. The situation could play out in a number of ways. Another team could make a trade offer in the preseason or sometime in the regular season. Orton could start the season as started, with Tebow taking over if/when Orton gets injured. If Orton is kept for the season, he doesn&#8217t have to walk in free agency. If the Broncos are confident that another team could trade for Orton, they could franchise him and trade like the Patriots did with Cassel.

Worst case for keeping Orton is the Broncos miss out on trading for draft picks, pay his salary and keep his cap number while Orton rots on the bench. Best case is Orton plays great this season, stays healthy, and the Broncos win more games. Worst case for trading Orton is Tebow bombs and the Broncos either go down with Tebow, or Quinn starts. Best case for trading Orton is that Tebow does great and is proven to be the QB of the future.

No matter how it goes down, it could turn out good, or it could turn out bad.

Posted by Piper A R on 2011-08-02 17:24:49

@Royal, Samuels hands down, no contest. We look pretty good at DE. Now if we were talking Just Tuck, different story. I can dream can&#8217t I???

Posted by krissberg on 2011-08-02 17:12:15

Getting away from Orton/Tebow for a moment, re-signing Ryan Harris, if it happens, is a great move for Denver. We all saw how Beadles and Walton struggled last year as rookies. I would anticipate Harris beating out Franklin at OT, which would give Franklin a year to learn and provide depth at multiple positions. EFX deserve a lot of credit for staying patient and getting Marcus Thomas and Ryan Harris to return on the cheap.

If they would only use some of that cap space on Abrayu Franklin, I&#8217d be fairly impressed with how they&#8217ve navigated free agency (minus the whole Orton thing).

Question for the group: if EFX could swing a three way trade with Orton going to Washington, picks going to either NYG or PHI, and either Samuels or Osi coming to Denver, who would you rather have?

Posted by Royalwithcheese on 2011-08-02 17:07:32

If John Fox says going into the Oakland game that Kyle Orton is the starter I hope that he throws for 350 years and we run for 150 years.

Posted by Dennis Mitchell on 2011-08-02 17:07:22

Lively discussion WITHOUT Ted bashing?! What is this site coming to???!!! Ted! You must enter the fray just to ease my mind!

Posted by krissberg on 2011-08-02 17:02:54

SpaceCowboy, don&#8217t roll over on me. I concede a lot of things. Orton isn&#8217t great. No doubt about it. It&#8217s highly doubtful he&#8217s the future of this franchise. He&#8217s a pocket passer.

Tebow&#8217s exciting. Right now he shows signs of being a leader and better motivator than Orton. He seems generally more athletic than Orton.

I also want to see Tebow perform. I hope he rises to the occasion during pre season and takes the job. It&#8217s not that I hate Orton. I&#8217m just hoping Tebow is the real deal and can lead this team to SB victories.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 16:59:27

If we can average 4.3-4.5 ypc and play a great to good defense the role of the QB will be to just take advantage of turnovers and pass when needed.

Posted by Dennis Mitchell on 2011-08-02 16:53:31

I concede that Orton can&#8217t carry a team like Elway and Peyton Manning. But, you put a team around him he can take you far like O&#8217Donell and Brady. I also concede that I want to see Tebow as the starter in 2013 and that in the long run Tebow will be a greater QB than Orton. Right now, I think that Denver can win the AFC West with either QB but it would be easier with Orton.

Posted by sleepyteak on 2011-08-02 16:48:43

I am done with this arguement. I conceed Orton is good at some things, but Orton supporters wont conceed any point.

This arguement has gone on since January and nothing changes

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-02 16:41:12

SC that reason was that Chicago had invested a #1 overall pick in Grossman. He won the job for many of the same reasons that people are clamoring for Tebow to start. When all was even in training camp Orton beat out Grossman. Because of injuries Orton had a poor line in front of him last year yet he still was in the top of the league in QB ratings. It wasn&#8217t until Orton was too hurt to play that his QB ratings were lowered in his last 2 games. I like Tebow because of what he can do on 3rd downs but overall at this point in time Orton is the better QB.

Posted by sleepyteak on 2011-08-02 16:37:00

Prospector1, the rat is gone and now coaching in St. Louis. Hopefully some opposition&#8217s defensive player errantly runs into the St. Louis bench and creams the Hoody-Hitler.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 16:34:58

SpaceCowboy, if I remember correctly, Orton beat Grossman for two seasons for the starting QB job, and it wasn&#8217t until the end of his last season that Chicago chose a different direction.

I&#8217m in no way saying Orton&#8217s great. But, he does have a winning record, he throws from the pocket, he&#8217s pretty much a known entity, and in the eyes of both McDaniels AND the EFX, he&#8217s still the starter.

I have no problem with Tebow EARNING the starting job. He&#8217ll have his chance to shine during pre-season. Fox hasn&#8217t written him off. But, in no way would I agree to just hand that unknown the keys to the new car.

Jeez.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 16:31:21

How can anyone that watched that rat play QB be willing to watch him again? That is insane. His smirk, his lack of mobility. It&#8217s sickening. He won on the Bear&#8217s cause the defense was shutting people down, and the defense/special teams were scoring touchdowns. Since he&#8217s been here it has been pathetic.. Going with Orton is like going with Deberg over Elway back in the day. Google John&#8217s stats from his rookie year.. How about when he lined up behind the guard? If Tebow did that the media would destroy him. So if you guys were running the team, Deberg would have been the man. Kinda like when Bledsoe was starting ahead of Brady. Going with the safe play only gets you marginal football. The only way this franchise moves forward is to bite the bullet and roll with Tebow. If he stinks, then we go hard after LUCK. And then we will all have no regrets.

Posted by prospector1 on 2011-08-02 16:28:11

@jtomasik

in Chicago Orton rarely threw for more than 200 yards AND got beaten out by Rex Grossman for a reason.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-02 16:23:26

Prospector, I think we&#8217ll get to see a lot more rushing, so you won&#8217t have to suffer through too many Orton pass attempts like last year. And, during those rushes, he does pretty good getting rid of the ball without giving it to the other team. Remember, he had a very questionable front line for the first 6 games.

Don&#8217t confuse Orton&#8217s play for the McDaniels team. If I remember right, Orton did pretty good with the Bears when he had a rushing game behind him&#8230.much better than the debacle he was stuck with last season.

The best way for a QB to grow is during REAL GAMES. Throwing the ball around in a non-contact jersey does nothing for your game.

Posted by prospector1 on 2011-08-02 16:16:36

Has any pro-Orton reviewed last years games? His complete fear of the pass rush was sickening. How many times did the invisible hand cause him to fall down? How many times did he throw the ball in the dirt? How many blown redzone opportunites? Come on get real, the dude is a loser. He provides no inspiration to this team. When guys are laying their bodies on the line during a game, they want to see a leader who is willing to do the same. That&#8217s what seperates Orton and Tebow. Orton is worse than watching paint dry. I cannot watch another year of his uninspiring play. It will drive me insane.

First, this team isn&#8217t doing the same thing over and expecting different results. Fox is a huge departure from McDaniels&#8230and it&#8217s going to show on the field (good or bad).

Second, amazing QB&#8217s can grow on the sidelines. Ever hear of Aaron Rodgers?

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 16:11:58

I was in Tampa when Steve Young was on the team, and then the Buc&#8217s grabbed Vinny Testerverde. Vinny was an athletic Orton.. He looks amazing at practice, but hated contact during games. Buc&#8217s dumped Young for a cup of coffee (fan&#8217s were angry on that move), and we all know what happened next. The best teams groom young number 1 qb&#8217s by having a plan which they communicate to the player. They&#8217ll say we plan on starting you after year 2 or 3, and we are committed to you. Now just go out there and grow. Bad teams (like Cleveland) start the older guy (D. Anderson), and tell the young that he has to win the job(Quinn). That causes them to press, and over analyse their faults. Then you have the team starting the young guy a couple of games at a time and then comparing his performance to the veteran. Young QB&#8217s always struggle, and need more than 2 or 3 starts in a row to find their groove. Quinn was never given the chance to grow, and looked what happened to Cleveland (they are still looking for a QB). Tebow was a rookie with 3 starts and everyone is comparing his performance to a 7 year vet. That is crazy.. Peyton Manning threw a bunch of picks his rookie year and what happened to him? You need to let the number 1 QB play, and then see if his game is progressing. In todays NFL of limited practice time, the young QB will not grow without actually starting the games. That&#8217s just the way it is. Qb&#8217s like Orton are a dime a dozen, you can trade for one every year. But when you have a talent on the bench you need to start him so you can evualate whether or not he is the future. The faster you can determine his worth as a starter the quicker the team can move forward with a plan. If Orton starts we are just spinning the wheels for another wasted year, which to me is insane. Einstein&#8217s definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Orton is a 7 year vet, he is what he is and we need to move on. Let&#8217s see what Tebow and Quinn can do under fire before it&#8217s too late and we lose them both.

Posted by prospector1 on 2011-08-02 16:00:31

prospector1, if this team had Walter Payton and that run game (which McMahon had), along with the &#821685 Bears&#8217 defense, then we could get away with a QB who does little more than provide his team inspiration.

Right now, we don&#8217t know what we have, so we need all capable hands on deck. Tim Tebow has not proven he is the most capable at QB&#8230yet.

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 15:43:22

I agree with most everyone in that you have to take the practice reports with a grain of salt. However, the players and coaches know, day in and day out, who has the upper hand. If this thing drags along and KO remains with the &#8220ones&#8221, it tells me the coaches feel he is the best player. Maybe they would fudge with the reps to create a trade value for Orton the first day or two, but they wouldn&#8217t allow it to drag on (at least I hope they wouldn&#8217t). These reps are too important.

If, in fact, KO is clearly outperforming TTT &#8220The Tebow Thing&#8221 (aside: this has to be my favorite phrase of the year, as it&#8217s not just about the play on the field, it&#8217s the religion, the big personality, the legend, and on and on&#8230) in camp and preseason games, Trotter&#8217s analysis is spot on. EFX will owe it to the players to start the best QB. Right now, it&#8217s probably too early to tell, which is why if the EFX wants to let TTT run its course, good or bad, they need to trade Orton ASAP.

I, for one, wish they would give KO another year to see what they have in him. He&#8217s entering his &#8220magical&#8221 third year in the system behind what should be a massively improved OL (simply having guys in set positions and having Clady back at 100%, should mean a lot), and should be complemented with a solid running attack. Why not give TTT another year to learn and play in spot situations. Expand the &#8220Tebow package&#8221 (i.e., let him throw, not by bringing Jimmy Johnson on board), maybe have him start a couple games as the season depending on match-ups, or if Orton struggles and they are 1-4, at the bye.

I don&#8217t see the downside. They have plenty of cap room to keep KO around, even if they do re-up with Clady and Lloyd. After camp, preseason games, practices, meetings, the Tebow package, and three starts last year and with camp, preseason, meetings, practices, and playing time this year, EFX will know what they have in Tim, KO&#8217s presence or not.

Posted by ButteBronco on 2011-08-02 15:40:40

I think Denver should treat Orton/Tebow the same way Pittsburgh treated O&#8217Donnell/Stewart. Let Orton start and play most of the game and put Tebow in for a series or two. This way a defense is going to have to prepare for both QBs. It leaves the offense to Orton (IMO a top 10 QB) and yet it prepares Tebow to be the starter next year. That should be the plan unless someone can make a trade that will benefit Denver more. They have nothing to loose by keeping Orton for the length of his contract. Orton will be motivated to do well because how he is viewed the rest of his career will be dependant on his play this year. Orton has never lost a training camp battle in which he was given an equal chance to win and I don&#8217t believe he will loose this one.

Posted by sleepyteak on 2011-08-02 15:38:32

@krissberg

Was he given the opportunity to take control? Starting out with the 3rd and 4th stringers, no significant time with the starters, stuff like that. I don&#8217t know the thought process, thus I won&#8217t even guess at it.

Things I know for certain: Orton as a starter means I am not buying any Broncos merchandise this year, I will not be attending any games, I will boycott the team as much as I can financially speaking. I am a Broncos fan, I supported Kyle Orton, but on an emotional level, I have such vile hatred of KO as the Starter for the Broncos (not as a person) that the thought of having him under center for another season makes me furious. KO is average at best IMO, and I know it isn&#8217t all his fault, but he inspires nothing except anger and disgust in me. Yeah, it is harsh, and yeah I know from a logical point of view he isn&#8217t horrible, and I try to keep as much of those feelings out of here, but ****, after every single game last year (Titans and 1st KC game excluded) he got the brunt of my anger because he failed to perform when he was needed. Yeah the defense sucked, but that was expected with that many injuries. I know all the facts, it doesn&#8217t change my emotion. I am just tired of mediocrity being accepted. The only stats that are on Orton&#8217s side is passing yards.

And here is something I thought of after looking at some stats. KO = Jay Cutler - interceptions - resistance to minor injuries. Both great between the 20&#8217s, but both fail to capitalize on RZ opportunities. KO doesn&#8217t throw TD&#8217s, Cutler throws picks.

Tebow is not a more refined QB at this point. Orton is a better passer, Orton can do a lot of things better at this point and that is expected. I want to see Tebow start not because I am a Tebow maniac, but because I want to see if they guy can be a future QB. If not then get Luck next year, but you can&#8217t know if you don&#8217t try, and putting it off is damn stupid IMO.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-02 15:35:47

Prospector1 I agree with this part a lot:

Anyone who attended the last 2 home games last year can tell you what Tebow brings to the team and Franchise. The crowd comes to life, and the team is filled with passion.

But as for Orton being a cancer, i can&#8217t say that.

The guy is trying to make a living and wants to be a starting QB. Thats what he gets paid for. If he pushes Tebow to work even harder and learn even more&#8230.that&#8217s a win win for everyone.

Posted by Dennis Mitchell on 2011-08-02 15:28:59

Klis & Kizla have been slamming Tebow since day one. Everything the kid does is looked at through the glass half empty lense. It&#8217s sickening. Anyone who attended the last 2 home games last year can tell you what Tebow brings to the team and Franchise. The crowd comes to life, and the team is filled with passion. Does any remember Jim McMahon? He inspired his teams to win, his stats weren&#8217t pretty but he found a way to win. If Klis OR Klizla weren&#8217t so biased, then maybe we would hear about all the sacks Orton takes or his uninspired play and his self-serving demeanor. Orton is a cancer on this Franchise, and the sooner he is removed the better for us all.

Posted by prospector1 on 2011-08-02 15:24:37

krissberg, are you saying you were hoping Tebow to take over in training camp? Really??

I think camp/practice is waaaay too scripted for Tebow to display his abilities. He&#8217s gonna need a game where he can open up a bit.

I&#8217m only hoping Tebow&#8217s little bit of playing experience last year and his off-season work pay off and shine in the pre-season games. That&#8217s where he&#8217s going to get his real opportunity to take over. He&#8217s gonna need to steal the show, &#8216cause with all the rebuilding going on and uncertainty, Fox will play it conservative. I wouldn&#8217t be surprised Quinn to step up, either.

I hope QB is the only issue this team has&#8230but I&#8217m afraid it won&#8217t be. <img alt="sick" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/sick.gif" style="border:0;" width="19">

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 15:16:02

BTW: nice work Doug and crew for getting pretty close to our REAL cap number weeks ago&#8230

Posted by krissberg on 2011-08-02 15:07:24

Agreed ohiobronco, let him take the job, probably the way he wants it anyway. And we seem to have some cap room to play with:

His salary figure seems digestable now. Not totally inconceivable he could be traded mid season.

@SC, I see a little bit in Lammey&#8217s feed, not much really (&#8216improving day to day&#8217), and again Mason&#8217s only &#8216positive&#8217 tweet was the one I listed before. You have to ask yourself, am I seeing the truth or am I seeing what I want to see? No one&#8217s a bigger fan than me, I&#8217m just a little disappointed he didn&#8217t come into camp and take control.

Posted by krissberg on 2011-08-02 15:05:53

Somehow I think this Orton issue will be moot. A team is going to trade for him (Miami - for a 2nd rd pick is my guess).

Posted by Orange and Blue on 2011-08-02 15:05:04

From the numbers and the sounds of it, it isn&#8217t Tebow time&#8230yet.

I&#8217m curious to see how Orton does with a running game and a half decent defense (which I hope is what transpires as a result of Fox&#8217s efforts. If it was still McDaniel&#8217s one-dimensional offense, then I&#8217d say it&#8217s Tebow time &#8216cause damn, SOMEONE needs to run the rock! <img alt="cheese" height="19" src="http://www.singernet.com/images/smileys/cheese.gif" style="border:0;" width="19">

Posted by jtomasik on 2011-08-02 14:58:39

@kriss

What SC said. Check out Lammey&#8217s twitter feed over the past few days. Mason, too.

If one listens to the national media and even the local Denver media one would easily come away with how &#8220bad Tebow is and how FAAAR ahead KO is&#8221. Please. Again, OF COURSE KO looks good in practice when he isn&#8217t getting put on his ass from a pass rush. But we&#8217ve seen how he deals w/ that the past 2 years, right? No mobility whatsoever.

Posted by Gristle McThornbody on 2011-08-02 14:51:12

I have no doubt Tebow tried to work hard to improve his game but I suspect he didn&#8217t have access to the kind of coaching he needed. Orton and Quinn would have been much more equipped to work on their own so not a surprise they come out looking better. The more I think about it the more I hope Orton is retained and Tebow is forced to take the job from him if he is to see the field. Being forced to try to match Orton&#8217s sharpness is probably the best thing for him. If he was handed the job free and clear it would just be too easy to lapse into masking technical sloppiness with athleticism like he has his whole career. I&#8217m not going to engage the Tebow diehards because they are just so dug in, so I&#8217ll just say my piece.

Posted by ohiobronco on 2011-08-02 14:38:55

@krissberg

He is improved. He is just not as strong of a practice player as Orton is. That is why I believe this competition will come down to the preseason games.

And if Orton is the starting QB&#8230well&#8230I am going to have some serious anger.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-02 14:33:26

@SC, don&#8217t mistake my intent, I&#8217ve been combing the internet for good news on Mr Te. Its just not out there the way we would like. And Andrew Mason has yet to say something truly positive that I can find. This is the closest he came:

&#8220Eh, ups & downs day-to-day. Test will be preseason games. RT @T_Hizzle1984: Sounds like Tebow had a good day Sunday; is he getting better?&#8221

I&#8217m not trying to start an argument, I&#8217m trying to inject a little reality here that our Lard and Savior doesn&#8217t look like we all had hoped. All of the talk of &#8216work ethic&#8217 had us believing he would come out this season and be, at least marginally, an improved quarterback and I have seen very little evidence of it.

Posted by krissberg on 2011-08-02 14:21:02

@Fan Read the Kirwan piece for another Lloyd statement, I didn&#8217t realize how much he, Tebow and Gaff practiced in the off season. How ironic Lloyd is catching from Orton and Gaff is gone.

Doug in case you ever wondered if anybody reads all the links in your lard, I do. Lots of things I would otherwise miss out on, thanks!

I believe Pat Kirwan actually said sort of the reverse of what you noted. &#8220John Elway and John Fox didn&#8217t draft Tim Tebow but do have to find out if he is the future for this team, and that means playing him&#8221. He says the Broncos need to trade Orton, if not now then when an injury occurs to another teams QB early in season.

Originally I agreed with Pat Kirwan, now it appears Tebow isn&#8217t &#8220really wanted&#8221 by EFX and I don&#8217t think things are going to work out for him here. He&#8217s going to need more than a wide receivers coach to help him technically and (imo) a team willing to at least partially play to his strengths.

Nothing against EF, they didn&#8217t draft him and they don&#8217t have to want him.

Posted by Portia11 on 2011-08-02 14:19:34

Thanks for the corrections, all - they&#8217re always appreciated. Sorry for the confusion!

Posted by Douglas Lee on 2011-08-02 14:12:47

@krissberg

Cecil Lammey has some good things to say, Andrew Mason has also said good things.

The only people I have read that have been hating on Tebow are the DP writers(and by extension, all the national reporters that base their reports on DP reports)

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-02 14:03:38

@Gristle, would love to see these accounts you are speaking of, please send a link. The only remotely positive thing I have read was a camp review over at MHR by Sayre, (http://www.milehighreport.com/... and he just mentions improved mechanics. And honestly Sayre seemed to make a lot of excuses for the kid. I was hoping for faster decision making and better accuracy and haven&#8217t seen a mention of that anywhere.

Posted by krissberg on 2011-08-02 13:59:12

Let&#8217s face it. Nates who play Mike for the Broncos really have a big boulder to roll up hill. Thank Jeebus this number thing got worked out and he didn&#8217t end up with #58.

Posted by Chibronx on 2011-08-02 13:49:28

Thanks, Doug!

I haven&#8217t gotten very far on the ol&#8217 reading list here yet so I don&#8217t have much to say. But I will note that in addition to the already-mentioned flipping of Orton/Tebow&#8217s names regarding the Kirwan article, the link that&#8217s supposed to go to the complacent Dolphin fan article goes to the Mike Leach book review.

Posted by RicoTheBold on 2011-08-02 13:40:19

Something I have noticed about national coverage, they take a story a local journalist has written, and then write a larger piece for their national magazine based entirely on what the local dude said. Now, we all know the DP is mostly filled with hacks and shoddy journalism, which gives zero credibility to guys who just take what they say and run with it (Captain Oblivious and the Salary cap)

The other silly thing about the SI article is that most if not all of the team leaders have praised Tebow&#8217s work ethic, so I am not sure why they would revolt against him if Orton is traded/cut/gets hit by a granny in a wheel chair and sprains his toe. Tebow(from all reports I have read) has done nothing except earn the respect of his team mates.

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-08-02 13:28:41

@krissberg

Not true concerning Tebow&#8217s progress. By all (objective, anyway) accounts, he has indeed made progress from where he was last year. In a couple of practices so far, a few thought he was the best of the 3 QB&#8217s.

But again this is PRACTICE we are talking about. Although important, IMO it&#8217s going to be the preseason games where the final decision will be made. Add to that, of course, the &#8220other&#8221 areas of detail regarding the situation: intangibles (#15 has more), potential (#15 again), fan opinion/marketing (does and will play a part, however small or large), etc.

Posted by Gristle McThornbody on 2011-08-02 13:27:56

Great info, sleepy.

With a lot of other teams already re-signing or extending their main guys, I would expect we will be extending Clady and Lloyd soon. Maybe not surprisingly coming off a 4 win season, there aren&#8217t that many more players we need to lock up long-term IMO.

Posted by Orange and Blue on 2011-08-02 13:09:59

Broncos 1 of 11 teams with more than 20 million in cap room with 26.7.

How&#8217s that for all the Bronco&#8217s have no money people. Glad to see Harris come back. Now my only concern is the interior O-line depth.

Posted by sleepyteak on 2011-08-02 12:54:30

Great Lard, Doug.

The Harris possibility is really fantastic news. I never thought we would re-sign him (not done I know, but even the prospect is surprising). If Franklin can be the versatile main backup on the line, we are in much better shape than I could have thought. Franklin&#8217s learning curve just got longer but at least he&#8217s got some time now.

I don&#8217t agree with Mason about the possible TE outcome. Fells (blocking) and Rosario (receiving) seem like solid TEs that provide what the team needs for 2011. Are both rookies at risk of being picked up from the practice squad? Sure, but from the sound of it, Julius is the one shining so far. I would think Virgil might be put on the practice squad.

Posted by Orange and Blue on 2011-08-02 12:47:14

Thanks, Doug. You guys have done a fine job staying up to date on this stuff as it happens. To be honest, I am not sure how you do it. Kudos.

I would like to see Harris back, for the exact reasons you stated; esp. if Tebow earns the starting job it would be nice to have a healthy Harris on the right side or Franklin who presumably beat out a healthy Harris for the job.

From a financial perspective, it&#8217s nice to see those vet minimums as well. As hard as it is to watch other teams doing it, I am glad that we don&#8217t simply &#8216throw money at the problem.&#8217

Posted by RalphW on 2011-08-02 12:47:00

Doug you flipped the names of orton and tebow in the Kirwam article. Great lard as always.

I think we need to open our eyes to the fact that tebow may not be ready. I want to see him in a game situation but its clear he made little progress this off-season.

Posted by krissberg on 2011-08-02 12:43:37

Um did you write that Kirwan bit backwards? It looks like he&#8217s saying keep Tebow and trade Orton.

Posted by JR_G on 2011-08-02 12:42:38

Trotter seems like he came in with Mike Klis&#8217 opinion. I mean several people I know have been at camp and swear after the first day Tebow has played really well.

I think honestly we have to remember that as much as everyone points to Tebow-mania there is a large group of people that have the anti-Tebow-mania.

Posted by Dennis Mitchell on 2011-08-02 12:31:38

I thought Trotter&#8217s article about the players reaction to Orton&#8217s trade was just silly. First he uses one quote from Loyd to back him up everything else seems to just be speculation.

How many of the players do you seriously think don&#8217t already understand that factors other than ability affect roster moves? It&#8217s like worrying that you&#8217ll upset a 35 year old by telling them there&#8217s no Santa Claus.

What about the people who do like Tebow? I would guess that the O-line would much rather block for him than Orton.

It just comes across as a filler piece designed to show how he&#8217s an insider who&#8217s got his finger on the pulse of something other people have missed.