306 comments:

So much energy and human potential foolishly puttered away 'demonstrating' ... in the technical field I endeavor, demonstrating or a demonstration means (generally) to 'show something work', not here (on the streets of Madison) however.

Funny how the majority of the people spoke in November, now the Dems want to say they didn't let Democracy work. While unions were needed back in Samuel Gompers' day, they prove themselves to be more and more unneccessary every day this goes on.

When 100,00 American citizens turn out to protest the passage of a bill that discriminates against them as a class, and when the governor of a state dare not appear in public, that is NOT what democracy looks like.

When 100,00 American citizens turn out to protest the passage of a bill that discriminates against them as a class, and when the governor of a state dare not appear in public, that is NOT what democracy looks like.

Now, you're crowing about physical intimidation of an election official by a mob, lucid.

"Democracy" means different things to conservatives and liberals. To conservatives, it means majority rule. To liberals it means liberals get what they want.

To conservatives, voting is a positive good in and of itself and you respect the results of a free and fair election (one person, one vote) regardless of what those results are.

To a liberal, voting is a tool to get what they want. It's a perfectly good tool, usually their tool of first resort, but it's just a tool and if it doesn't get them what they want, then there are other tools.

This is an excellent article, and it once again proves that not only do conservatives and liberals have a different perspective on the word "democracy", but also on the definition of "listen". For the 14 democrats who fled the state, it is obvious that their version of "listen" means "you hear me tell you what I want you to do, and then you do it".

What Robert Reich is saying is this: Let the GOP think they are right, but come summer of 2012, they will be finished. Trust me. I know how things happen even before they happen. I know how voters vote before they actually vote. This is why I am on K-street having lunches and dinners at the Oval. I charge more per hour then most people make in one month. The GOP is finished. This is like having a great cake free of charge, thanks to Scott Walker. Keep on truckin', Scott!

Forgive me, but I really feel compelled to post this excerpt from an article in Time-

"Wiping tears from beneath her dark rimmed glasses, Anne Moser, 47, who works for University of Wisconsin Madison's science-based Water Library, said, "People know that violence doesn't get you anywhere. The attack the Republicans have made is violent and a violation of human rights. It is an attack on the middle class. We teach our children to follow rules and to sit and the table and work it out, but that certainly hasn't happened here." And so she and her allies may seek there revenge elsewhere: in a court of law or, most probably, in a polling booth."

I understand that the unions don't like giving up benefits, but someone has to pay the bills.

That concept right there is just beyond them...if you want to see what democracy looks like, do a referendum in Wisconsin and have all the people who are willing to pay higher taxes to support these people vote. Just see how that turns out.

Conservatives are not identified with a pure form of majority rule. Just the opposite. They are identified with limitations on the power of government.

Read James Madison on majority rule, which he feared would become a form of tyrrany--the tyrrany of the majority. Which is exactly what Walker is trying to do and why there are 100,000 people protesting his actions.

A government that imposes extreme measures on those who oppose it can't survive in America.

I've tried to stay out of this argument for the last couple of weeks-- not my state-- but I am seriously afraid of the conclusions that lucid makes. The left is going to treat this as a success, even though they lost everything, and they will conclude that intimidation by mobs and death threats are legitimate political means. We will become Greece. In any case, to echo another commenter, I don't want to hear one more word about the "violent" Tea Party.

tyrrany of the majority. Which is exactly what Walker is trying to do and why there are 100,000 people protesting his actions.

Because James Madison fully supported mandatory union dues as a condition of work, which would go directly into the coffers of one political party--which he was also enthusiastic about, right? That's the same thing as Hessians burning homes, is it?

And I thought you said voters oopse Walker 2 to 1, so why do you say now "tyranny of the majority"?

I am not a leftist. I am an independent moderate. In the last election I voted for every Republican on the ticket, except fo the lunatic the Republican's nominated for Governor in NY--in that case, I voted against Cuomo by voting for the Libertarian candidate.

Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans are rapidly losing people like me--moderate independents--just like Obama and Pelosi did.

I don't like extremists or bullies, especially when they hold public office.

You are wrong. Conservatives do believe in limited government, but when they lose elections they do not pretend they are still in the majority, they try to win the next one...what these people are doing is ignoring the will of the electorate and threatening violence against the elected officials they don't like. They are also being hysterical and ridiculous..it is not as if Walker is sending them down in a salt mine to work hard labor on a chain gang.

"When 100,00 American citizens turn out to protest the passage of a bill that discriminates against them as a class, and when the governor of a state dare not appear in public, that is NOT what democracy looks like."

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Considering over 5.5 million people live in this state, and around 2.5 million voted last November, 100K people "protesting" a bill is nothing.

And lucid, the extremists and the bullies are the folks threatening to kill people and the mobs taking over the capitol building. Walker is doing exactly what he said he would do..if people like you did not pay attention to what candidates like Walker were saying and voted for them anyway...then that is your problem.

I used to be a liberal, but the kind of people we have seen in Madison this week are the kind of people that drove me to the right...there is something inherently corrupt in the system that these public service union members support. And more and more states are having these problems...they can blame their own greed.

Who wants to read a long complicated article full of facts and details when it's so much more fun to beat a drum, chant and pull a wagon full of manure? And wear costumes! And make posters! And have a parade! And break into buildings! And make threats.......

Indeed, Walker was Mr. Patient. Unlike his desires to keep gays second-class citizens unworthy of providing benefits to their spouses, all through his candidacy, Walker had omitted telling the good people of Wisconsin his plans to bust public unions.

Reading between the lines in the Weekly Standard article, it looks like every time the Democrats got close to a "deal", they went and checked with their lords and masters (the union bosses and national Democrats?) who scotched it.

The complete confusion of concepts in claiming that what happened wasn't democracy, and that the attempted coercion by demonstration is democracy... Sigh. It makes me worry about the country. This people are spouting words for their emotional connotation alone. The evidence suggests that they have no idea what they mean.

Indeed, Walker was Mr. Patient. Unlike his desires to keep gays second-class citizens unworthy of providing benefits to their spouses, all through his candidacy, Walker had omitted telling the good people of Wisconsin his plans to bust public unions.

Jesus, fls, don't you ever get tired of exposing yourself as a spoiled brat with these childish pronouncements?

You're such a foolish, childish dunce.

Find something useful to do with your life instead of imagining that you're re-enacting the 60s civil rights movement.

@lucid, perhaps by the extremist standards of New York, you believe yourself to be moderate. By the standards of the states west of the Hudson and east of the Rockies, you're pretty extreme.

Obviously you didn't read the linked article, because it demonstrates that Walker and Fitzgerald attempted repeatedly to negotiate with the absconded Democrats, only to have Miller act again and again in bad faith. If Miller and the Wisconsin unions (private sector as well as public) were engaged in a giant game of chicken, then they're the ones who went over the cliff.

And Walker certainly has gone out in public since the vote. But if you want to see real reaction, let union thugs try to beat him up or even murder him.

The reaction won't be protest marches by unreconstructed 60's-era hippies masquerading as learned professors in a distinguished university.

I started to close this by saying that Wisconsin unions aren't stupid, they won't do anything violent in public. But I deleted that. After reading what you wrote perhaps they really will believe that physical violence will work.

Walker and the Republicans may have overstepped their mandate. The victory may be short lived. The reforms may be overturned at the next election. It may have been more prudent to take smaller steps, but as has been pointed out, the same could be said of Obama and the Democrats. Time will tell and I will be looking for the immediate benefit to the state and local budgets that have been promised.

"If this article is correct about the negotiating that was going on, and the examples of bad faith by Miller, then in the end Walker and the Republicans in the legislature had no choice whatsoever."

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Yes it is correct, which is why Walker put the e-mails out to prove it. He was sick of being villified in the media as a guy who was doing no negotiating.

Sens. Jauch and Cullen had a heart attack when Walker put those e-mails out, because they were the ones doing most of the negotiating in private but yet doing most of the bashing in public. It shut both of them up real quick.

"I am not a leftist. I am an independent moderate. In the last election I voted for every Republican on the ticket, except fo the lunatic the Republican's nominated for Governor in NY--in that case, I voted against Cuomo by voting for the Libertarian candidate.

Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans are rapidly losing people like me--moderate independents--just like Obama and Pelosi did.

I don't like extremists or bullies, especially when they hold public office."

I call bullshit. No moderate speaks the way you do, and if you're an independent it's only because you've never bothered to register one way or the other.

lucid seems to think that 100,000 people protesting (how many are NOT from Wisconsin?) is significant. But in reality (not something lucid deals in), it is a small representation of the population of Wisconsin. Less that 2%. (0.017% actually).

This is NOT what democracy looks like since we are not a democracy, but a representative republic. What this looks like is the small minority of thugs who have taken over in their quest for communism in nations all across the globe.

Perhaps lucid can explain that if the quest of the protesters is such a popular viewpoint, where are the other 5.5 million Wisconsin residents? Why are they not protesting?

Oh, that's right, they are the ones that put Walker, and the Republicans, in control last November. They are the ones that realize that their state, and our nation, is on an unsustainable financial path that has to be stopped in its tracks.

I find it funny that all the people that the police finally decided to haul out of the State Capitol where long haired 60's wannabes. Perhaps the unionized police feel that since they have to get hair cuts, everyone else should have to get hair cuts to acceptable lengths.

Wisconsin is a mess. And it will continue to be a mess until the good people of Wisconsin stand up and demand the insanity ends. As long as they remain silent, the insanity will continue and will be the face of Wisconsin to the rest of the nation.

Sorry but 100,000 citizens mobilizing for a re-call of elected officials, who may have violated open meeting laws, and who wanted to ram through a bill written in such arcane language that folks across the state did not realize the full impact of this bill-- that is called organizing and part of the democratic process. These folks are just the tip of the ice berg of resentment towards Walker. But there is no physical intimidation towards Walker other then a huge re-call effort, something he knows well as that is how he was first elected in Milwaukee.

@FLS, the ACLU hasn't been interested in civil liberties in years, maybe not in decades. Today the organization exists solely to do money laundering for the Democrat party and to try to force people to take down their Christmas trees and creches.

Why aren't they taking to the streets of Idaho? Indiana? Ohio? Michigan? All these states are going to or have passed similar bills.

Why just Wisconsin?

I thought democracy was where you had elections, and the elected representatives enacted ideas they campaigned on. Didn't the Republicans telegraph this in Wisconsin before November? Didn't the entire political apparatus of Wisconsin get upended-and go from liberal(dare I say socialist) Democrat to Republican? Which office did Democrats control? House of legislature?

The Republicans shouldn't get soft in their shoes, they should not waver. My guess is the touted tsunami of Democratic fervor will be a small wave. Many of the daily protestors are from out of state, and mere students at the University. Students haven't yet worked for a living so they haven't felt the financial impact of public unions.

A couple years in the workforce erases 18 years of public education brainwashing.

"Indeed, Walker was Mr. Patient. Unlike his desires to keep gays second-class citizens unworthy of providing benefits to their spouses, all through his candidacy, Walker had omitted telling the good people of Wisconsin his plans to bust public unions"----------------

Show me where Pres. Obama told the good people of this country his ObamaCare plans before he got elected.

Im still waiting for him to close Gitmo. And end military tribunals. And to pull out of Afghanistan. And for his "stimulus package" to keep unemployment under 8%.

All of this will be revisited if and when recall elections (on both sides of the aisle) actually occur and in the next wisconsin gubernatorial election occurs

Man--I can wait till the Repubs in the state house redistrict- the dems only think this is bad--

It has been an instructive episode in how fucked up some wisconsinite are (although I suspect most demostrators were bussed in but I dont know that)--finally: why are liberal women demonstrators so butt ugly--they fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down--

Oh God, what a load of manure. Obama did not even support gay marriage until it was politically advantageous for him to do so...I mean come on.

After these changes go through, public service union members will still have more job security and better pay and benefits than most of the people paying taxes to support them. As time passes and it becomes obvious that the jack boots are not sending brave union thugs off to the gulags some folks out there might think some of you guys over reacted just a tad.

"Sorry but 100,000 citizens mobilizing for a re-call of elected officials, who may have violated open meeting laws, and who wanted to ram through a bill written in such arcane language that folks across the state did not realize the full impact of this bill-- that is called organizing and part of the democratic process. "

----------------------

Is this Peter Barca in disguise?

The open meetings law was not broken. This is explained in the story linked above.

As far as "ramming a bill through" - if 60+ hours of debate, a 17 hour hearing, and 3 weeks away in another state inst enough for legislators to read a bill and understand what is in it, they have no business being legislators.

I challenge a high school student in this state to go to a teacher refuse to take an exam and "protest" because "they dont know what's in the test". That's exactly what teachers did for the past month.

I am not a leftist. I am an independent moderate. In the last election I voted for every Republican on the ticket, except fo the lunatic the Republican's nominated for Governor in NY--in that case, I voted against Cuomo by voting for the Libertarian candidate.

By his own admission Lucid isn't even a resident of Wisconsin so his words don't even carry much weight. The reality I see around me everyday in South-east Wisconsin is that many people support Walker; but they just quietly go about their business.

Anyone who still thinks that an election in which RUSS FEINGOLD was un-seated was an aberration, something that a few recall petitions and some hippies, malcontents and fat people in stretched green and orange t-shirts can overturn is even more delusional than the Althouse Galleries would indicate.

BTW, the loss to my personal fortune was immense, since I sunk my entire IRA savings into the "small" and "medium" union t-shirt concession on King Street. I'm not expecting a bailout.

"Walker can't go out in public, except in carefully controlled venues, because he is unpopular and hated--just as LBJ could not appear in public during the Vietnam War or Nixon during Watergate."------------------

Last time I checked, Mayfair Mall is hardly a "carefully controlled venue". And State Fair Park is about where Mayor Tom Barrett had the shit beat out of him a while back. Walker was at both places yesterday.

"Walker has become a political pariah, Mitch Daniels was just on Meet the Press and sharply distanced himself from Walker, as has Giov. Christie in NJ."---------------

Id love to know how you come to that conclusion. The only reason Christie hasnt passed similar legislation is because he doesnt have a GOP legislature.

Walker's approval rating is not all that different from Obama's. I think Walker is at about 43% right now and Obama is right at 46 or 47% in Gallup.

And I also think Walker's approval rating would be higher if he had just split that bill and done the vote sooner rather than letting a mob take over Madison for days.

And it is also worth noting that while people do not like the idea of taking collective bargaining "rights" from people...the majority is also fine with freezing with the wages of state workers and forcing them to pay more for their health care and pensions...all of which would lead to folks like you calling the majority extremists and fascists and God knows what.

If unions had not been so power hungry and greedy in the first place they could have avoided this.

Reading between the lines in the Weekly Standard article, it looks like every time the Democrats got close to a "deal", they went and checked with their lords and masters (the union bosses and national Democrats?) who scotched it.

Indeed. That's certainly the sense one gets from reading these details. Sounds to me like the Senate Democrats were doing what Mark Miller told them, and Mark Miller was doing what the Unions told him. And while they were hiding out, ostensibly to protest, they were actually causing the delays needed for the unions to cut quickie backroom deals.

And Mitch Daniels has already ended collective bargaining here in Indiana. He has also cut pay for teachers, cut education, and promoted a state voucher system that would promote charter schools...charter schools do not hire union teachers.

So the idea that he is distancing himself from Walker when he has already done a lot of the same things in Indiana is just stupid.

I know, I live in Indiana..and it was just a couple of weeks ago when Daniels came out in public support of Walker.

"In their campaigning, Republicans omitted facts material to the electorate I see no difference between Scott Walker and John Edwards in this regard."

------------------

Then I ask you again...tell me where Pres. Obama told the electorate his ObamaCare plans before he was elected.

The fact that Walker went farther than you thought he would isnt his fault. All one had to do was look at how he handled the Milwaukee County budget to see how he would try to handle things at the state level.

The unions are playing with fire--if they go thru with a recall petition and fail they are finished--they would have to demonstrate they have electoral clout rather than demonstrating. dont think they have it in them, but will be interesting to see

The Japanese earthquake and march madness will force this egregious display of infantalism off the front page--RIP

I liked the article, too. This is the best overall look at what has happened, at least that I have read.

The threat toward teachers probably goes back to the sense that now education is in the hands of the liberals, as they've outlawed school prayer, and much of human decency. They ram sex education down students' throats without even telling parents. Many have turned to home schooling or want charter schools as a result.

The notion that public officials "aren't working for us but against us" means that many want to put them out of work, or at least curtail their salaries, and push back, is behind a lot of this tension. How far back does this go?

It's as if the tectonic plates have been moving for decades and earthquakes like what's happened in Wisconsin have much deeper rationale -- going back at least to the outlawing of school prayer.

I don't really like the demonization of teachers. Don't really like the sense that many have that teachers can make up for the defects of families. Many think that every imbecile on earth can go to college and do well whether their family is with them or not.

We've had all kinds of unrealistic expectations on all sides. No Child Left Behind is just ridiculous, and the Charter Schools are not going to make every kid into a little Einstein.

But the reason that the money is largely coming from teachers is because of a sense that teachers should be superhumans who can fix the problems that properly belong inside of good strong families, backed up by people who are capable of restraining themselves, and contributing to families and to communities.

No, they did not omit any facts and if they did then you can vote against them next election...threatening to kill people is not the answer and hiring people to prance through the streets will not change the policy.

But the reason that the money is largely coming from teachers is because of a sense that teachers should be superhumans who can fix the problems that properly belong inside of good strong families, backed up by people who are capable of restraining themselves, and contributing to families and to communities.

Hilarious posting,

Because education departments that train teachers would label you a "racist" for saying this.

Because what you're essentially saying is that there are racial and ethnic differences.

Conservatives dug in their heels and denied funding for a new prison as well as prisoner relocation.

I guess Obama could have done it by executive order -- would conservatives prefer his governing by fiat?

Because for his first two years he really had to worry about Bernie Sanders or Joe Lieberman voting against him on this issue?Funny how the left likes to portray Goerge Bush as a complete idiot and yet he accomplished things without near the majority Obama had in 08.

A couple of things...for one thing you can not have collective bargaining and then just decide to freeze wages and force changes in benefits..not unless the union says ok...these people were ok with doing whether or not the unions liked it or not..that make me wonder how many people really know what collective bargaining means...

And as for the fact that you said the unions were willing to do that...some of them were, but others went right on making demands oblivious to what you were hearing.

The point is as long as they have collective bargaining in regards to benefits and pensions then it will be almost impossible for government to contain its cost.

Anyway...Walker offered some concessions and all he got back from those Democrats was an eff you...so what else was he supposed to do?

This is not about the concessions on wages adn benefits. I am not at all opposed to those, and they were long since decided and agreed to.

And I just watch Mitch Daniels on Meet the Press an hour ago. when aske if Walker was dong the right thing, he said "I don't know," and he also said that he had not gone after right-to-work laws because he thought it was unfair to do something so extreme that he had not campaigned on--which is exactly what Walker HAS done.

Walker can't go anywhere in the state without people protesting him. It's easy to figure out Walker wants, he will be gone soon enough. It's Republicans that jumped off the cliff for him that I can't understand. They will own the wreckage he left behind.

The Democrats said one thing in public and then did another...they refused to negotiate and they lost.

As for Daniels and right to work...I live in Indiana..I watch this stuff on the local news...here in this state you do not just bring up a bill without debate because if you do then you have a limited time to get it passed..and if it is not passed in that time frame then it is dead for the legislative session.

Daniels wanted to do the right to work the same way he did other things that the unions hated..he wanted to debate it and then have a vote and then win.

He is not some pro union guy, in fact the unions in Indiana hate the man...and yes he did come out and formally support Walker along with every other Republican Governor.

Walker can't go anywhere in the state without people protesting him. It's easy to figure out Walker wants, he will be gone soon enough. It's Republicans that jumped off the cliff for him that I can't understand. They will own the wreckage he left behind.

No governor of any state go anywhere without some people protesting. That's just another way of saying that there is always opposition.

These voice of doom prophecies from garbage are getting pretty tiresome. How about if we wait for the election?

I gotta go. I hear Glenn Reynolds is continuing his Death-In-Japan theme to earn him 8% on anything you buy at Amazon after clicking through on one of his links.

I hear he is now linking to markdowns on bodybags at Amazon.

Do you like giving 8% of what you spend to Glenn for his personal use?

I want to support Glenn because he is a state teacher who cannot be fired and who certainly spends less than 10 hours a week for 7 months of the year working at a job that he gets paid more than $200,000 in wages and benefits for from taxes paid by people who make a lot less than he does.

He certinly needs 8% of everything I spend at Amazon after I click through one of his many links.

Well maybe so....but then again it could be that the people who support Walker have regular jobs and don't want to be set upon by a mob of rented thugs who have nothing better to do than bully elected officials and anyone who supports them.

On August 30, the Journal Sentinel ran an article on plans by Walker and Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, his Democratic opponent, to save the state money by revamping health insurance plans for public employees. The reporter spoke to Ryan Murray, a top policy adviser for the Walker campaign, who explained the candidate’s plan. “The way the proposal would work is we would take the choice out of the collective bargaining process," Murray said.

So does taking the choice out of the collective bargaining process mean ending it for health care? The reporter certainly seemed to think so.

“[Murray] said school districts often have some of the most expensive health benefits in Wisconsin and could receive cheaper insurance through the state if they didn't have to negotiate with unions about who would insure their members.”

What was clear to the reporter was also clear to the teachers’ unions. “Our members oppose taking away their rights to collective bargaining, so they would definitely raise their voices against it,” said Christina Brey, a spokesman for the Wisconsin Education Association Council, the union leading protests today...

...So a top Walker adviser made an on-the-record comment that both a reporter and a union representative understood as meaning an end to collective bargaining.

And another teachers’ union, the American Federation of Teachers, found Murray’s comment so threatening that they included it in a flyer warning teachers to vote against Walker who, they claimed, wanted to “void parts of labor contracts.”

poster:"By his own admission Lucid isn't even a resident of Wisconsin so his words don't even carry much weight."

lucid [sic]:"Whaaaaaaaat? This is an argument??? "

No, it's not an 'argument', it's an 'assertion'. And not a bad one. It means that as a non-Wisconsin resident, you don't really have a dog in this hunt. Nevertheless, the poster generously used the words "much weight", instead of "no weight", so you should, in fact, be grateful that you are being granted that much attention here.

And how many of that vast 100,000 were hired? How many were bussed in from out of state?

Somehow, you end up wondering just what the proportion of Badgers was yesterday.

PS lucid is taking the same tack Julius did last night and the same one so many of our little trolls take when they realize they've beclowned themselves by mixing Kos/Soros talking points with invective to the point of inanity.

Suddenly, he votes straight Republican and has been a "moderate" Republican for years.

Yes, go soak your well-kicked butt. Bring it around here again pretending to be a concerned moderate form NY and expect the same. The rest of your good-bye post is a great example of slipped-mask liberalism. Thanks for proving ALL of our points.

As a Wisconsin taxpayer Im afraid to know what new form of indoctrination will be spewing from the public schools on my dime. I'm sure the distortion of the truth in this history will be paramount to the concept of the Berlin wall falling from its own weight. This infusion into Wisconsin of the Obama backed unions is unparalleled in the States history and I'm affraid for the nearterm stability of Wisconsin. What is now a bonified battleground state I call on the the silent majorioty to become involved. Wisconsinquences means to become proactive. Reject the recall efforts supported by Organise for America and the national unions, volunteer in your local communities to assist were you can to get through the work stoppages. show the protestors what made Wisconsin great in the first place, individual resolve, self determination and thought.

Excellent article, and a good breakdown of what has gone on for the past several weeks. I'm not surprised to see that the democrats were negotiating in bad faith - or at least Miller was, anyway. This whole incident makes them look like spoiled brats, and I am glad to see the truth of how it all went down.

Here are Walker's positions on a variety of issues, based on his campaign website, interviews, debates and news reports.

On the state budget deficit:

Walker wants to reduce public employee benefit costs and state and local government's costs to fund state employees' retirement funds. He supports a crackdown on fraud and abuse in the Wisconsin Shares child-care subsidy program. He wants to reduce the state's medical assistance costs and wants local governments and school districts to institute wage and benefit reform, which will save the state money. He said he'll eliminate vacant but funded state positions.

Yesterday for the 1st time ever, I happened to hear the criically acclaimed show Wait Wait Don't Tell Me. From what I could tell, the host is a smug librul and the audience clapped like trained seals at his every supposedly funny utterances.

On the show, they said Walker used a trick/ loophole/etc to get this law passed. And in a mea culpa for the brand new taped evidence that NPR is biased, the host said [I paraphrase] "but good things happen to people fired by NPR like Juan Williams" ..and went on to claim Williams got a "$2 Million per year job at Fox". Someone should tell NPR's Mr. Know It All that Williams' contract was for $2 Million over 3 years which is a big difference.

"When 100,00 American citizens turn out to protest the passage of a bill that discriminates against them as a class, and when the governor of a state dare not appear in public, that is NOT what democracy looks like."

These aren't merely "American citizens" and you damn well fucking know it. They are government officials.

"Citizens" don't work for and are not paid by the government. Citizens FUND the government. These people protesting are THE GOVERNMENT - pissed off that the CITIZENS are clipping their fucking wings.

You government officials (teachers, firemen, police, councilmen, legislators) can fucking get used to seeing your generous benefits NOT PAID TO YOU.

We can't afford it, and we have no intention of enslaving our children so you FAT CATS can live high on our hog.

Fucking piss off. You work for us, and we're not willing to pay you what you demand ... so if you don't like it - fucking RESIGN.

There are thousands who would give their right arms to have your cushy jobs.

Lucid - Didn't you hear? The hard right represented on Althouse knows and speaks for every independent voter in the world!!!11!1!!!!!! They can't possibly vote in such a way or believe things that Der Commentariat von Althouse didn't personally approve beforehand!!!!!111! To do so would go against committee roolz.

The tent is as big as the commentariat is self-righteous. They're banging seven-gram rocks here and that's just how they roll. Bi-winning, man. Bi-winning.

Public sector unions are greedy. No matter what the state of the economy, they want full paid benefits and retirement pensions into eternity. Unionists are not willing to be a part of Obama's "shared sacrifice".

In fact, I especially like the part of the artie where it discusses the willingness of unions to agree to cincessions on the wages and benefits, then goes on to mention that during the delay in voting, unions were quickly ramming through new contracts - and in some cases new contracts with pay raises.

While the outrage is charming, we will see if the unions can unseat anyone--Me? I think the unions are like pelosi democrats marching off a cliff--so why do we wait to see how the recall petitions work out--as I learned in the cavalry a long time ago--never burn a bridge you might have to cross later.

In any event, for Reich to claim that for elected officials to conduct business in the legislature according to state and well-established rules of order is a "coup d'etat" reveals what most of us have known for a long time -- Reich is incapable of putting two ideas together to save his life.

If you have to resort to holding your breath, calling people names, and having a temper tantrum on the rug, you've conceded the argument.

This place is the Charlie Sheen of the internet. Next thing you know, Althouse will convince her groupies to push for bills allowing the murder of gynecologists and claim that this would be a popular move, and one supported by independents and closet Democrats everywhere1!1!1!!!

"I am not a leftist. I am an independent moderate. In the last election I voted for every Republican on the ticket, except fo the lunatic the Republican's nominated for Governor in NY--in that case, I voted against Cuomo by voting for the Libertarian candidate.

Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans are rapidly losing people like me--moderate independents--just like Obama and Pelosi did.

I don't like extremists or bullies, especially when they hold public office."

Lucid - Didn't you hear? The hard right represented on Althouse knows and speaks for every independent voter in the world!!!11!1!!!!!!

The hard right wing blog of a law professor working in one of the most liberal environments in the U.S.

The hard right wing blog of a law professor who is an advocate of feminism and gay marriage.

This is the rule now. Disagree with any of the policy positions of the left, and you are a "hard right winger."

I know it's hard for some people to not be a dummy when they can't differentiate between the posts of one blogger in Wisconsin and the knee-jerk support she receives from dozens of groupies in cyber glass houses across America.

This place is the Charlie Sheen of the internet. Next thing you know, Althouse will convince her groupies to push for bills allowing the murder of gynecologists and claim that this would be a popular move, and one supported by independents and closet Democrats everywhere1!1!1!!!

Ritmo, why do you always have to just go stark raving mad?

There are no groupies here. Just about every poster on this board, including me, has had serious disagreements with Althouse.

So far, you had nothing to say except:

Na-na-na-na-na. You're all hardcore right wingers.

I think you really are a smart guy and you have something to say. Could you try to say it as simply as possible? Take the corn cob out of your ass, quit telling us which books you've read, and just say it.

I could do the same thing you're doing. I have an MA from a very ritzy university, I'm a technical whiz kid, I'm an accomplished musician and I'm so fucking well read, it's nauseating.

But, talking about that serves no purpose here.

Say what you have to say as simply as possible. Dump the "everybody's a right winger repetition" please.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong (not a concern) but wasnt Mr Reich the dude who fabricated phone calls when he wrote his book?

More than phone calls...

From Slate:

"Last year, Slate reported that in parts of Locked in the Cabinet, his memoir of his term as labor secretary, Reich fabricated quotations and distorted events. Moreover, the changes appear to have been systematic rather than random, crafted to create Hollywood-style set pieces in which Reich was the embattled decent man who was savaged by ruthless journalists, politicians, lobbyists, and other Beltway vermin. (Click here to read the original story.) The real people for whom nasty lines had been constructed were not amused."

Well, it's nice to know that fuzzy thinkers like edutcher can come up with the obligatory conspiracy theory when all else fails.

Conspiracies of one, eh? Is that another way you go about inflating your sense of support? The opposition is minimized and crumbling, just a single Wizard of Oz (or a small band of Joooz, as Glenn Beck would put it) against your massive army of silent majority Davids!1!1!!

Whatever. The over-reaching triumphalism on display here reminds me of the guns that go off in Gaza during the celebration of a wedding or a terrorist attack. You guys are truly the al Qaeda of American politics. If only hypertext could allow for ululation.

Republican strategy for 2012 should be to randomly choose a public employee from each govt dept and point out their education, experience, salary, years or service, cost of fringe benefits,at what age they could retire and how much their pension will be.

Then use that data in TV ads without naming the emloyee. The public, especially independent voters, will be shocked, angered and energized by the exorbitant compensation and will be motivated to vote against Dem candidates.

Whatever. The over-reaching triumphalism on display here reminds me of the guns that go off in Gaza during the celebration of a wedding or a terrorist attack. You guys are truly the al Qaeda of American politics. If only hypertext could allow for ululation.

See what I mean, Ritmo?

When you go for hyperbole and lunatic over-reaching, you don't mess around.

But, do you have an idea? One? Could you tell us what it is?

And, haven't you heard? The left has openly embraced Hamas and is now bitterly anti-Israel.

There are no groupies here. Just about every poster on this board, including me, has had serious disagreements with Althouse.

And yet, you can't seem to wait for her to provide the internet's best source of validation of your hard-right views... just as soon as she finds the next one to agree with you on. Trains and buses and all that.

Most of Althouse's groupies are much more deferential to her than one or two, obviously.

Call it invective, Roger. Whatever. You guys are massively inflating your sense of victory in all this and if that offends you to have that pointed out, address your own emotional issues about it. Shooting the messenger only serves the purposes of someone for whom belief is more important than fact.

The over-reaching triumphalism on display here reminds me of the guns that go off in Gaza during the celebration of a wedding or a terrorist attack. You guys are truly the al Qaeda of American politics.

as for participants on the blog being "althouse groupies" you havent read very critically--many participants havent the remotest agreement with the professor--but they do participate--so rather than engage in silly generalizations, disaggregate the data and engage not in the fallacy of composition--an accomplished rhetoritician such as yourself surely understand what I am saying.

If you want to know what concessions the unions would have agreed to in order to help balance the state budget, look no further than Illinois and see what their public employee unions gave up in our ongoing budget crisis.

Oh, that's right, they didn't give up anything.

Taxes are up and services to the poor are down, but our precious unionized DMV clerks haven't given up one red cent.

"This is not about the concessions on wages adn benefits. I am not at all opposed to those, and they were long since decided and agreed to."

The concessions on wages and benefits were no more than rhetoric. They'd have to be negotiated with each individual public union after the fact. You'd trust that to hold? Really? The only way for those agreed upon concessions to hold was if the local governments were given the authority to enforce them.

"And I just watch Mitch Daniels on Meet the Press an hour ago. when aske if Walker was dong the right thing, he said "I don't know," and he also said that he had not gone after right-to-work laws because he thought it was unfair to do something so extreme that he had not campaigned on--which is exactly what Walker HAS done."

I missed the inclusion of a "right to work" law.

Limiting bargaining to wages and making unions certify yearly and collect their own dues were the only things I recall hearing anything about.

But their victory was chiefly due to Scott Walker being calm and collected, and refusing to take part in the dramatic tricks being put on the by the Democrats. He was patient. And when it was clear the other side was acting in bad faith, he moved forward with a perfectly legal plan to get the bad actors out of his way.

But don't let this go to your heads, Republicans! The best possible direction for you going forward would be to consider everything without the baggage of your previous political positions, and without regard to the ranting and ravings of those who have gotten political payoffs from you in the past. Your hands are not clean. You are, in fact, responsible for much of what has gotten our country into the terrible mess that it is in.

It would be nice if more Republicans displayed the sensibility and virtue that Scott Walker has. A few do. But far, far too many don't.

Well maybe so....but then again it could be that the people who support Walker have regular jobs and don't want to be set upon by a mob of rented thugs who have nothing better to do than bully elected officials and anyone who supports them.

Dismiss them at your peril. You obviously have no idea what is going on in this state. Only 20% of the state voted for Walker. Wait until they see all these rural schools closing down, their bus services gone in Eau Claire, Wausau, La Crosse, etc.

I have to laugh out loud reading these comments though, as if ordinary people couldn't hate this lying douchebag without some sort of outside help.

I have a sincere desire to avoid living through the horror of watching the Arab world led by Iran nuking Tel Aviv.

Why? What makes you believe that if this was an imminent concern, the Israelis couldn't ensure their own survival better than you could? And I can't believe your stake is personal... if you were actually Jewish you would probably have much more intelligent things to say. I really doubt their well-defended tribe needs you to speak for them, Thomas.

So again, what is your stake? Are you a humanitarian, so acutely aware of the folly of anti-semitism to have an extra special sensitivity to it? Did you live long enough to serve in WWII and liberate concentration camps? Please. If you want me to buy that one you're going to have to try a lot harder.

Hey, Garage - still haven't heard from you about that $100 bet that Walker will be re-elected. What's the matter, Bennies too plentiful with you to pick up another? After all, if he "can't go anywhere in the state without people protesting him," it should be easy pickings for an intellectual giant and finger-on-the-pulse politico like you, I should think. . .

You are no more capable of knowing what I believe than I am on knowing what you believe. But you seem to assert you understand what commenters on the blog believe.

My point was what the independent voters (poorly represented here) believe and how it is that that those more partial to right-wing causes, based on what they state, came to believe that they know the thoughts of that less well-affiliated group.

Otherwise y'all wouldn't be accusing lucid of being a turncoat, traitor, liar, moby, Kossack, what have you. What I want to know is how y'all granted yourselves extra special privileges to accessing his mind and the minds of independents. Riddle me that, Roger.

You are screwed. It's largely your own fault, but we all deserve a healthy portion of the blame. We lied to you. We made promises that no one in their right minds should have believed, but you did because you're greedy and selfish, just like my predecessors. We were whores. You paid us for your pleasure, but now we're broke.

The whole ponzi scheme is starting to crumble--be honest, you knew it couldn't last. We all need to grow up.

For the last few weeks, you've been throwing a shit fit. You're pissed. The gravy train got derailed. It was going off the tracks any way. Better to stop the damage now. We're broke. Game's over. You need to make a new and realistic deal with your employer--that would be us. We can't afford you.

Recall me if you can. I really don't give a shit. But I'm tired of pretending. We're broke, and I don't want to crap on our kids any more than we already have.

"Really, Ritmo, you never have anything to say. You've got an extraordinary command of language... I'll give you that. But you never come here to do anything except to get it piss fights."

The Democrats are aware of the power of comment sections to move public opinion. One of their tactics is to pollute comment sections so that they become unreadable. In that way, they believe they can reduce the power of ordinary people.

Ritmo is part of that strategy. Whenever he sees comments that appear to be moving things towards conservative positions, it is his role to pollute that comment section. To make it unreadable with nonsensical, irate, name-calling bullshit and to litter the thread to the point that nobody wants to read it.

It's a deliberate strategy on the part of the Democrat Party ... which realizes that certain comment sections (maybe 10 or 15 on the entire internet) are moving the conversation in ways that diminish the power of Democrats.

Althouse's comment section has been targeted for a deliberate dirty-trick littering campaign by the Democrat Party.

Kevin, Reich's actions are par for the lefty course. They always make shit up if it will advance the cause. They never fail to eagerly stoop so low--it's what they do--it's in their DNA--their SOP, nothing more. Practically EVERYTHING they advocate is ALWAYS cloaked in the proverbial "tissue of lies." It's the only way they know to hype the natives; the only way they can get over on we illiterate, racist rubes.

Ritmo--how do you know independent voters are NOT represented on this blog--show me your data - you are talking out your ass--did you not learn that assertions are not arguments?

As for lucid I have no idea what's in his mind--I can say he has made assertions that are not supportable with external evidence-now some have pilloried him for his views and that is not appropriate most have asked for him to suport his assertions--If I am wrong in this my apologies