This isn’t true Christianity, this is the “Christianity” of most of the Western world. This is because of Western secularism. Muslims in my country(Canada) are just as affected by Western Secularism. I live in a city with a Muslim mayor. In 2011, he marshaled the gay pride parade. The Muslim mayor of London recently marched in the Pride parade and theres a video of him waving the rainbow flag at this parade. When I was at University many self proclaiming Muslims would sleep around, get drunk, and not fast during Ramadan. Do you blame Islam or Western secularism for this? I know that Islam doesn’t promote this and you know this as well. That is why true Muslims in Muslim countries like Yemen don’t do these things.

You said:

“The central declaration of Christianity seems to be “Just do it – It’s all good.””

That’s a lie and you know it. If you can find a passage of Scripture, a quote from a Pope or Saint or Church council, then you’d have a point. Please provide a quote if you believe this.

This also has nothing to do with Paul. St. Paul in Romans wrote:

“Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.”

– Romans 3:31

You assume that St. Paul taught what the Protestants say he did. I recommend you read Catholic writings on these issues. The Catholic Church condemned Sola Fide at the Council of Trent. The Bible condemns it in James and Paul never taught it either.

However, Islam and Christianity are very different in the respect that Islam offers a divine law, a moral guidance, a code of conduct, that ushers one down a righteous path, while Christianity is simply lacking in this regard, there is no law, no boundary, no straight path to guide the believer whatsoever. This is why when the Christian falls into error, it is often directly because of the misguidance which stems from his Christian religious belief that he is “free from the law” and that he is already saved through faith based redemption.

Whereas, when the Muslim errs, it is not because of Islam, but in spite of it. And although I agree with you, that some Muslims choose not to follow Islamic and Qur’anic teachings, that is ultimately the fault of the person and not the fault of the religion itself.

Secondly, If someone claims to be a Christian but doesn’t act like it or commits sinful deeds, he is still considered by his co-religionists to be a “good Christian” (or at the very least a Christian) since it is often unclear as to how a Christian should conduct himself, given that he is already saved (Paul’s Gospel of Freedom from the Law, and faith based redemption). Paul even writes that good deeds are like filthy rags, they are not required since one is already saved through the atonement. In his letter to the Galatians, Paul argues for “faith in Jesus Christ” as the sole avenue to “justification.” (Gal. 2:16). If on is saved (justified) soley by faith in jesus , then deeds do not matter, and that partly underpins my (Nike Commercial) statement that “The central declaration of Christianity seems to be “Just do it – It’s all good.”

When a Muslim sins, it is clear that he is acting outside the bounds of Islam, or against its teachings. There is no question, confusion or ambiguity about that. Good deeds matter, righteous living matters, obedience to the law and commandments of God matters. Submission of ones will to the will of God matters. All of which, in the end analysis, are not really so an inferior Christian theology.

Your argument that Catholicism does not teach Sola Fide, while Protestant churches do, only confirms that there is much confusion and disagreement even among Christians on what Christianity actually teaches on these type of issues.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’ve never read the Bible, NT or OT. No one who has read Paul, let alone studied his writings would have said what you did. Allow me to show you.

“Paul even writes that good deeds are like filthy rags,”

Paul never said this. This is a quote from Isaiah 64:6 and is not quoted in the NT. It is included in a lot of Protestant preaching which seems to indicate that you haven’t studied Paul but heard this from Protestants and assumed it was Paul since you don’t know the Scriptures.

So Christianity gives no moral guidance? There is so much in the NT about moral guidance. Let’s go to Galatians, which you quoted for one of many examples.

In Galatians 5:19-21, St. Paul says the following:

Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Please explain how this statement from Galatians fits in with “Just do it – It’s all good.”

“Your argument that Catholicism does not teach Sola Fide, while Protestant churches do, only confirms that there is much confusion and disagreement even among Christians on what Christianity actually teaches on these type of issues.”

There was no confusion for the first 1500 years until the apostate monk Martin Luther cooked up this doctrine of Sola Fide. He had to add the word “alone” to Romans 3:28 when it wasn’t there and drop the book of James from the Bible I might add. Sounds like someone to learn theology from, right? Even the groups that broke off before then such as the Orthodox, Monophysites, and Nestorians don’t believe this. Even today, Protestants are a minority amongst what is called Christianity.

Ibn Issam, I want you to learn about the Christian faith properly. I recommend that you read the Catechism of the Council of Trent to learn true Christian teaching. I also recommend you study the Bible as well. Actually read it and don’t go off what Protestant apologists say which is what you’re clearly doing since you thought the filthy rags statement was from St. Paul. After you’ve read it, contact me and I’ll give you some traditional Catholic commentaries to study the Bible. This is only if you’re interested in learning what Christians believe. If you don’t want to learn, keep doing what you’re doing.

Allan,
I won’t call you a liar as you did to me, but let’s be honest, for all the lip service that Christians may give to the contrary, we both know that Christianity does not require the law, and that Paul rejected it, hence the name of Paul’s Gospel, is the “Gospel of Freedom/Liberty” (from the law). To try to downplay this fact by blaming Martin Luther for all the confusion, is kind of disingenuous, given that Paul himself writes rejected the law. Also, trying to deflect by saying that Protestantism is a minority, (as if no one really believes in Sola Fide) is ridiculous, since Protestantism is a “minority” that comprises almost half of Christianity. So their teachings are very influential in the world of Christianity as you well know. I can appreciate differences between the Protestant perspective and Catholic perspective but such differences only serve to highlight the confused ambiguity that is at the heart of Christianity.

So what if Paul did not write of filthy rags? He trashes good works in many other ways. Paul writes that ‘By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin’ (Rom 3:20). He also says “There is no one who is righteous, not even one; (Rom. 3:10) So clearly Paul does not consider the law to be necessary requirement for salvation, it is simply there to serve as a type of mirror to look at so that we may know that we are all sinners. Contrary to the verse you quoted (Rom. 3:31), Paul explains that the law is a burden, bondage, and even a curse! He does all of this for no other reason than to try and explain to as to why the vicarious atonement of Jesus is required. Likewise, the sins noted in Galatians 5:19-21 are simply there to remind that the recipients of that epistle that they are all sinners, not to stipulate that these sins must not be committed or salvation is lost, since in the end (according to Paul) salvation only comes through a faith based redemptive belief in the cross. Paul plays with the word “law” and argues that justification is by the “law” of faith, so when he talks of upholding the law, he is really speaking of upholding the “law” of faith (Romans 3:27-31). The headings of those periscopes in many Christian Bibles is “none is Righteous” and then “Righteousness through faith.” So your argument that Paul upholds the law is really weak and full of holes.

The problem here is that Christians have an entirely different understanding of the meaning of “Righteousness.” Christians believe that no man can be righteous whatsoever at all, and they are forced to believe and say this, otherwise, why do we need Jesus? On the other hand Jews and Muslims both believe that any person can attain a pious state, and be a righteous person, even if the person falls and makes a mistake or sin, it is a true believing righteous person who gets back up and returns to the right path. Righteousness is having faith in God while ALSO striving to be an obedient servant of God, following his divine law and commandments, and this is something that is attainable.

Is there some Good advice in the Bible? Sure. Are there moralistic teachings in the Bible? Yes agreed. However, the Christian faith does not regard adherence to such moral advice as being a necessary guidance in one’s daily practice of the religion, nor is it required for salvation. The Christian is “Free” to be a morally good person……..or not! Either way they are saved by a faith belief that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.

A hollow faith in the Atonement by the Cross does not necessarily result in good works or spiritual growth for the self or society, because faith based redemption ultimately does not require any action.

Given this, the question should be asked: Of what use or benefit is Christianity for the betterment mankind, on an individual spiritual level and societally? If Christianity as a faith tradition, leads to such sinful immorality and it does not really offer anything (including salvation) that cannot be obtained elsewhere in more rational based religious traditions.

My original point alluded to the fact that there is no legalistic spiritual guidance in Christianity to guide the believer as to the proper practice, conduct, or behavior, and to guard against religious innovation, deviations and especially misguidance into sin. That point still stands.

Reading your response brought me great sadness. Your response essentially stated that you have no interest in truth. You accused me of calling you a liar? I never said that at all. I assumed you hadn’t read the Bible. An assumption isn’t a lie. I also said that you didn’t know Scripture. That certainly isn’t a lie. The clearest example is the Isaiah passage. You answer: “So what…” This just proves that you don’t know Scripture by mixing up this very basic text and such a cavalier attitude shows that you don’t care. No one should take you seriously with regards to Paul or Isaiah, or any other parts of Scripture for that matter since you obviously don’t know these basic facts. I didn’t call you a liar but just you accused me of something I didn’t do so I guess that makes you a….(fill in the blank)

You didn’t even read the quote from Galatians 5:19-21, at least not all of it. The end says: “those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

You said:

Likewise, the sins noted in Galatians 5:19-21 are simply there to remind that the recipients of that epistle that they are all sinners, not to stipulate that these sins must not be committed or salvation is lost,

Is “shall not inherit the Kingdom of God” different than “salvation is lost”?

You obviously have a deep hatred for the Christian faith. I don’t know why that is but the least you can do is represent my faith properly. If you want to learn about the faith, I can point you in the right direction and where to start.

I would recommend a study of the Christian faith and Christian history. I think you’ll be pleased with what you find. However, even if you don’t, you’ll at least learn what Christianity teaches. You will learn about Christian theology, history, and Philosophy. I’m going to assume that you’ve never read a book about Christianity written by a Christian. The most you’ve probably read is Bart Ehrman, if you’ve even read that.

One last thing. You said:

“If Christianity as a faith tradition, leads to such sinful immorality and it does not really offer anything (including salvation) that cannot be obtained elsewhere in more rational based religious traditions.”

Immorality? I’m ready to compare the Saints of the Catholic Church against any holy men of Islam you might bring up. Even better, lets go straight to the source. Let’s compare the life of Paul to the life of Muhammad. According to you, Paul believed that anything goes and Muhammad believed in a strict moral code.

As for Christianity not being rational, I challenge you to produce any Islamic document that even comes close to the rationality like St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica. I’m guessing that you don’t know much about scholasticism or Catholic Saints since all of your knowledge of Christianity comes from Protestant apologists.

Please do some research to respect my faith tradition and to stop embarrassing your own.

Allan,
I know it’s hard for you but try and get the point. I never said that there weren’t any good moral Christians, or that there are no moral teachings in the Bible. Only that as a religion Christianity does not offer the same clear guidance, and legalistic framework that other religions do.

Every religion has a moral code which the believer is expected to adhere to:

Hinduism -Law of Darma
Buddhism -eightfold path, and the truths
Shintoism-Law of Kannagura
Zorastrianism-Laws of Akasha
Judiaism-Law of Torah
Islam-Law of Shariah;

Only Christianity alone stands among the world religions as a lawless faith. Without a binding law, boundary, moral code of conduct or straight path to guide the believer he will fall into error. Many Christians fall into sin often directly because of the misguidance which stems from the false Christian religious belief that he is “free from the law” and that he is already saved through faith based redemption (see Rom. 3:28; 4:5; Eph 2:8-9). Paul even uses the ninth and tenth commandments as his example of “the law” that has passed away and cannot save (Rom.7:6-7) Paul clearly teaches that it is the grace of Christ that saves, by cooperating with the “spiritual law of Christ” (whatever THAT is). Since the law had “passed away” in Christ (Hebrews 7:11-12) the “New Covenant law” that Paul refers to is really nothing more than a faith based redemptive belief in Jesus atonement. Even though Catholicism may emphasize works more than Protestantism, there is still no clear requirement or body of law to follow. The Christian is still ultimately, “free to obey the law” but this also implies that he is free to disobey, but either way he is considered to be saved according to Christian teachings. Such a theology does not contribute to the betterment of person or the world, and better teachings can be found in most any other world religion.

As far as rationality is concerned, even St. Thomas Aquinas could not settle the doctrinal irrationality that lies at the heart of Christian theology, otherwise we would not still be having this debate today.

You can ASSUME whatever you like about me or my knowledge of Christianity, and what I have read and learned about your faith. Say whatever you like about me to make yourself feel better. But your adhominim attacks, along with your braggadocio and boasting of your “Scholastisim” do not win you any points with me or anyone else based on that alone. I don’t hate Christians and I have a lot of Christian friends. But I do not compromise on my faith and on discerning the truth.

Luther did not “drop the book of James from the Bible” – he just said it was “an epistle of straw” compared to the doctrines and deeper theology in the books of Romans and Galatians and Ephesians and Philippians.

But I agree with Allan on his quoting of Galatians 5:19-21.

In Galatians 5:19-21, St. Paul says the following:

Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Please explain how this statement from Galatians fits in with “Just do it – It’s all good.”

Ibn Issam: you never answered Allan’s question.

The Christian is “Free” to be a morally good person……..or not! Either way they are saved by a faith belief that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.

A hollow faith in the Atonement by the Cross does not necessarily result in good works or spiritual growth for the self or society, because faith based redemption ultimately does not require any action.

No; you misunderstand what true faith in the atonement is and what the “freedom” means. True faith in the atonement and person of Christ changes you into a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17) so that you now have to the power to live a moral and holy life. It means we are freed from the guilt and slavery to sin so that now, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we have the power to obey God’s law and live moral lives.
Freedom to obey; freedom from sin that now we have the power to actually do the law of God, because God has changed us and make us new creatures.

Good works and morality do matter; they matter as the result and proof of true salvation.

“Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” I Corinthians 7:19

“For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.”
Galatians 6:15

Notice “a new creation” and “keeping the commandments of God” are parallel. You have to be changed into a new creature FIRST (by being born again by the Spirit of God – John 3:1-10), then you are freed to be able to obey God’s law and live a moral life.

Here is only some of that article. Notice that before Luther many church fathers and medieval Roman Catholics even had already had the word “alone” there, based on the context. It was another way of saying “apart from the merit and condition of works” to do beforehand as earning God’s acceptance.

4. Previous translations of the word “alone” in Romans 3:28
Luther offers another line of reasoning in his “Open Letter on Translating” that many of the current Cyber-Roman Catholics ignore (and most Protestants are not aware of):
“Furthermore, I am not the only one, nor the first, to say that faith alone makes one righteous. There was Ambrose, Augustine and many others who said it before me.”
Now here comes the fun part in this discussion.

The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 with the word “alone.”
At 3:28 Luther introduced the adv. “only” into his translation of Romans (1522), “alleyn durch den Glauben” (WAusg 7.38); cf. Aus der Bibel 1546, “alleine durch den Glauben” (WAusg, DB 7.39); also 7.3-27 (Pref. to the Epistle). See further his Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen, of 8 Sept. 1530 (WAusg 30.2 [1909], 627-49; “On Translating: An Open Letter” [LuthW 35.175-202]). Although “alleyn/alleine” finds no corresponding adverb in the Greek text, two of the points that Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.
Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):

Even some Catholic versions of the New Testament also translated Romans 3:28 as did Luther. The Nuremberg Bible (1483), “allein durch den glauben” and the Italian Bibles of Geneva (1476) and of Venice (1538) say “per sola fede.”

Further Information
I’ve also had a written debate with a Roman Catholic on Luther’s use of the word “alone.” That can be found here.

My original point alluded to the fact that there is no legalistic spiritual guidance in Christianity to guide the believer as to the proper practice, conduct, or behavior, and to guard against religious innovation, deviations and especially misguidance into sin. That point still stands.

The entire New Testament, the true Injeel, gives principles and rules for holy and godly living, if one first realizes their need for Christ and His power and repents, trusts in Him, and is truly converted and grows.

When a Christian sins, there are principles for dealing with sinning after justification; and if a person commits serious sin and is unwilling to repent, there is church discipline (excommunication or kicking them out of church until they do repent).

”
The entire New Testament, the true Injeel, gives principles and rules for holy and godly living”

did yhwh in the old testament tell the hebrews how to control lust, anger and hatred? did ywhs laws , rituals and guidance help the sinful hebrews live a better life? yhwh gave the laws to a people who were angry, hateful and lusting, did he know that his laws will help them? yhwh was a god who told the hebrews that his laws and rituals can lead to eternal life. when yhwh gave his laws, did he say “only sinless can practice my laws”

when yhwh gave his laws, rituals and guidance , did he say ” you have to be FREE of sin” ?

history proves that Jesus is needed, because only by being “in Christ”, can you have the power to obey the law.

And all Muslim countries prove this also, that they need the gospel and the power of God to overcome their sins, as there is so much secret sins and partying and fornication and adulteries going on in secret.

The law stirs up more sin (Romans 7:7-9) – you don’t have the power or ability to be good.

“if one first realizes their need for Christ and His power and repents, trusts in Him, and is truly converted and grows.”

yhwh so loved the world that he sent his laws/rituals/guidance that whoever follow these laws/rituals/guidance will be on the path to eternal life, even though in the beginning a magic tree could give eternal life just by eating from it.

yhwh said that his laws/rituals/guidance are closer to his heart than your naked pagan crucified idol.

how dare you REDUCE the salvation of yhwh to body which is CRUCIFIED. you have blasphemed yhwh.

8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Romans 1:28-32

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

he HAS rejected the law. the laws use is just a barometer which EXPOSES you , not GUIDES you to eternal life. you SIMPLE have TRASHED the GUIDING part of the law. you are dependent on a naked body pinned to a cross. did yhwh ever say his salvation will take on the embodiment of a jew?
yhwhs laws/rituals/guidance are GREATER than the naked IDOL nailed to the cross.
yhwh himself says they are greater , dave wrote a song about them in the psalms.

Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law).

”
And all Muslim countries prove this also, that they need the gospel and the power of God to overcome their sins, as there is so much secret sins and partying and fornication and adulteries going on in secret.”

“in secret”
when your christian brethren fornicate , party and do adultery in secret, i bet it DOESN’T even leave the church. but when it comes to the OTHER PEOPLES YOU TRUMPET the sins.

krist MADE YOU INTO hypocrite ken.

”
The law stirs up more sin (Romans 7:7-9) – you don’t have the power or ability to be good.”

yhwh says his laws/rituals/guidance help CAP sins. romans 7:7-9 is a liar .

so? that cooled him down after the ritual he done to himself. you are still in your corrupted nature. you still sin. you have no power over lust, anger or hate because god made you “born in sin”
fantasizing over naked corpse will not help your sins. wash your hands and stop worshiping jews who leave tombs with no linen clothes. yhwh says this is spiritual ADULTERY.

“Repent and trust in Him, who is a POWERFUL Lord who rules over you and can give the power to live a holy life.”

he was DEFEATED by death and satan was STILL alive and currently lives on . satan was lording over jesus while jesus was defeated by death. satan tempted jesus and blinded paul and told paul to trash yhwhs laws. satan is your god ken. satan.

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

ken, did yhwh tell the sinful hebrews how to CONTROL their lust, anger and hatred THROUGH his LAWS/GUIDANCE?

yes or no?

you said the LAW IS GOOD

what does the law SAY about righteousness

quote :
Moses says in Deuteronomy 6:24-25 – “God commanded us to perform all these decrees, to fear the Lord our God, for our good, all the days, to give us live as this very day. And it will be righteousness for us if we are careful to perform this entire commandment before the Lord our God as He commanded us.”

quote :

And God said about Abraham in Genesis 18:19 – “For I have loved/known him because he commands his children and his household after him that they keep the way of the Lord doing righteousness and justice, in order that the Lord might then bring upon Abraham that which He had spoken of him.”

NO WHERE DOES HB say that ONE CANNOT be RIGHTEOUS if he does not ACCEPT the human SACRIFICIAL DEEDS of jesus/ works of jesus/RITUALS of jesus.

quote :

Proverbs 21-
3 TO DO righteousness and justice is choicer to the LORD than sacrifice.
15 TO DO justly is joy to the righteous, but ruin to the workers of iniquity

quote :
A TZADIK IS SOMEONE WHO D-O-E-S TZEDAKAH (JUSTICE-LOVE) and who ACTS ACCORDING TO HASHEM’S LAWS

SO where does hb say one NEED jesus/his self sacrificial RITUAL to be RIGHTEOUS?

laws/rituals/guidance gave HELP on something which you termed “the heart of the problem” which was lust, adultery and hatred. according to you THERE WAS no mechanism set up by yhwh to help against the “heart of the problem”
if that is the case , you are obeying the law to be seen by men when at the same time you may be lusting, hating and having anger?
they could have even BARBECUED your “sinless” man-god i am sure it would not solve the “heart of the problem”
your OWN god could not SOLVE it even though he was HOVERING over his hebrews.
you are just paying lip service like your false prophet paul about the law.

you telling me that ALMIGHTY KNEW ABOUT “the heart of the problem” yet he COULD NOT guide people using his GUIDANCE?

what then is even the POINT of laws/rituals/guidance when they cannot solve the HEART of the problem ?