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About The Author

Ralph Maughan

Dr. Ralph Maughan is professor emeritus of political science at Idaho State University with specialties in natural resource politics, public opinion, interest groups, political parties, voting and elections. Aside from academic publications, he is author or co-author of three hiking/backpacking guides.

Now we already talking about “With bear-human conflicts on the rise, wildlife managers in the northern Rockies are laying the groundwork for trophy hunts for the animals in anticipation of the government lifting their threatened species status”. In the article the estimate is the bears will loose protection in 2 years. Doubt that it will really take that long, with the gunslingers already being impatient…….

Now all of this now on Hunting Grizzlies! Sooooo Sad!!! How can anyone really shoot a Bear rather a Black or a Grizzly in my opinion is wayyyy behyond me. These hunters anymore are freaking crazy. Now hunting Elk and Deer is one thing … But a Grizzly …. Noooo!!!

Anyway, the West did not starve because Grizzly meat was not available for a couple of years and food supply will not really significantly improve with a handful of Grizzly released for hunting. So this is in no way about hunting for food!

++Mark Bruscino, WG&F and bear specialist said that grizzly bears are as smart as the great apes…ah like hunting a human!++

There are some hunters who would consider this a “plus”. We all know their ultimate fantasy is to hunt humans, or creatures that approach human intelligence. They get hard over the possibilities of tracking more intelligent prey.

This might be useful on colonizing planet Xeon 200,000 years from now, but pointless here.

“The wolf hunt is really targeted at reducing the number of wolves,” Servheen said. “We’re not trying to reduce the bear population anywhere. … It would be a very careful, limited hunt”. Hmmm, excuse me, but why hunt the bears at all, when reduction of the total number is not the goal? How much reduction in human/bear livestock/bear conflicts is predicted when only a handful of bears can be hunted anyway?

These hunters won’t be killing grizzlies to eat them. They are killing them for a rug or trophy. Why is killing always the first thing that comes up once an endangered species is delisted? I prefer a grizzly that is alive, not dead to be turned into a rug or trophy.

I know in the 4 states that have grizzly populations, currently it is against the law to waste the meat of the animal, if hunting grizzlies becomes a reality in the lower 48 I am sure you will be required to take the meat.

If you waste game meat, you can loose you hunting privileges and be heavily fined.

And don’t take this as I am endorsing grizzly hunting, but I can’t see them allowing the meat to be wasted. When you take a black bear, you are required by law to keep the meat, I don’t see it being any different with grizzlies.

++Why is killing always the first thing that comes up once an endangered species is delisted? ++

Because they aren’t very enlightened people. They are lost, confused, insecure, and frightened man-children.

They seek control in a world they feel they have little control over. Ending the life of a predator (for no scientific reason) gives them that tiny bit of authority, or power that is missing from their day to day existence.

But you give them way too much credit, Mike. Lost, damaged and confused implies there’s a good person there somewhere under all the rubble. I don’t know that there is in many cases, just evil and ugly given free rein. You cannot kill and be a good person. That is my opinion and my ethics. I make no exceptions. How do you compartmentalize killing and then come home to your wife, kids and family pets? What kind of people are they?

I don’t expect many to agree with me. A managed hunt is way worse IMO than the much smaller risk of poaching and SSS, because it is much more difficult. Now, we’ve made it all legal and easy for them.

Not too bright either. Have they given any thought to what to do when ther “managed resources” run out?

And making wolf hunts legal has the especially harmful effect of desensitizing the public to the slaughter be cause it is all nice and legal. The public doesn’t know a lot about what goes on anyway, and then when society puts the stamp of approval on it by legalizing it for the same old tired bs, it is worse the the incidences of poaching and SSS. It further separates the public from this disgusting behavior. I doubt poachers would be brave enough to go near park boundaries very often before, but look at the damage that has been done by making this legal. As I said, I don’t love hunting, don’t practice hunting, but I do accept it. But killing isn’t hunting.

So when the calculate the buy-out rate, I assumed they were using present market value of the land? And when they buy out a grazing lease, it is the land they are valuing, at present market value, isn’t it? Or if not, how are they figuring net worth?

How we wish we could buy back grazing leases on federal lands. However, this cannot be legally done except in a few instances.

A lot of ranchers would like to sell them (although they don’t own the lease, they are renting use of the forage on the land). Nevertheless, compensation to the ranchers would permit them to stop grazing remote and/or wild country.

I wish the author would rewrite his blog on the megastorm possibility.

He wrote: “Was the 1861–62 flood a freak event? It appears not. New studies of sediment deposits in widespread locations indicate that cataclysmic floods of this magnitude have inundated California every two centuries or so for at least the past two millennia” The boldface above is mine.

Of course it was a freak event if it only happens irregularly on the average of 150-200 years. He undercuts his own argument.

What is interesting is that a megastorm happened once and so it could happen again.

Game managers estimate that a minimum of 10 percent of a wolf population will be poached, killed illegally and rarely found. That’s an additional 23 dead wolves, bringing the likely number of wolves killed in Wyoming to about 143 or 62 percent of the state’s 230 wolves.

This was from the Wolfwatcher article. I’m curious (and apprehensive) to see what kind of creative reason WY will come up with to justify a hunt for next year. All approved by the DOI, it is so sad. Something tells me they better hurry though.

Also wondering if any have wandered their way down to Illinois or Iowa? There seems to be a lot of wolves in Wisconsin. It would be kinda silly to think that they would recognize the state line and not cross it lol!

I memory serves me correct, there have been a couple of wolves shot in rural Illinois. Thought it was a coyote…

Also, I missed your reply about Rin Tin Tin. Don’t buy a copy, you can have mine as I don’t think I’ll read it again. When to finish, either give it to a school or another library, that’s what I was going to do.

That’s right, there was something about that in the north western portion of Illinois and I think also something further south. I wonder how a wolf population would do in a state like Illinois? The northern portion, particularly the north eastern part of the state is so populated. I noticed the other day as I stopped at one of our forest preserves there was a sign about management of the deer population going on. I noticed it too late and didn’t have a chance to back up to read it fully.

And thanks about the book offer! Very cool! I can send you an address via that email you have, just drop me a line and I’ll send it to you. Thanks again!

I went fishing around, there’s been lots of suspected sightings but not a lot confirmed. Some pretty darn close to where I live! I’m kinda on the edge of a lot of suburbia so I’m not too surprised. A lot of forest preserves and homes with bigger yards, some with acreage as well. Just west of me are a lot of horse properties and just about 45 mins to the west, farm land too so I wouldn’t be surprised at all if I sat down and really thought it through.

Speaking of populations, do you think there are cougar populations up further north of where I am, in Minnesota and Wisconsin?

I just read something how it’s divided. North of I-80 they are ‘Threatened’ status, south of I-80 ‘Endangered’. (Unfortunately, raised near Chicago, in my mind everything south of I-80 is ‘southern Illinois’ and really, it’s not that southern! I think it’s the snobbery of living in a Chicago suburb. I’m working to improve that!) Since I posed that question I’ve been digging a little into the history of the wolf, recent history that is, in Illinois. It’s been some interesting reading and I’m not quite done yet.

That’s what I’ve heard as well, that any cougars, animal types…. um ok, the four footed variety are coming out of the Dakotas. I think DNA tracked the one shot in Chicago from that area. I’ve heard people deny cougars are alive and well in Michigan but there have been so many reports it casts doubt on the nay sayers.

To be honest with you Mike, I’ll take the ‘hicks’ in corn country over the more ‘sophisticate’ types in the more civilized areas of Illinois. Country people, over all, are much more polite than the suburbs and certain the city these days.

“Also wondering if any have wandered their way down to Illinois or Iowa?”

Harley, there is currently a collared wolf from Wisconsin in northern Illinois. She was collared in central WI as a yearling about a year ago and has slowly made her way south. She just entered IL in the past week and subsequent flights will tell us if she stays there or returns north.

“The people in charge of managing firefighting for big wildfires in Colorado’s forests often declare them “contained and controlled,” but then add that they will be burning until the snow falls. Typically, that happens in mid-autumn. While some spots may smolder well into winter, the conventional wisdom, based on years of experience, is that those fires are not going to grow.

This weekend – the first weekend in December, which is not officially winter, but which is almost always characterized by winter weather – a wildfire near Rocky Mountain National Park, burning for nearly two months, made a major run and more than doubled in size to 3,500 acres. Although the wind was howling, it carried no snow to dampen the fire.”

December 4 …Wyoming Trophy Wolf Hunt Area 7 near Jackson Hole went over its quota. Three of the 12 designated hunt areas are closed after reaching quote, and three more are one wolf away from closing. The trophy wolf take is up to 38 of the statewide quota of 52 with four weeks to go. 19 wolves-at-large have been shot as predators in the rest of the state.

I wish Wyo G&F would call these managed wolf hunts what they really are…” Limited Quota” instead of ” Trophy”

Ida
Acceptors take a few birds at my feeders during the year. Should I not feed all those seed, suet, and fruit eaters because some of them may be captured? Are not many captured away from feeders? I frequently find feathers in the woods and orchard indicating some bird was food for another.

I have had, I can’t tell which, Cooper’s hawks or a sharp-shinned hawk, land in my bird feeder tree, but there is lots of cover to and fro from it. I assume they must take birds, but that’s nature. Red-tails and osprey I hear and see overhead, and an occasional bald eagle, and owls at night (barred for sure and I think Great Horned). I have seen any feathers near my feeder only once. There are lots of mice, voles, chipmunks and squirrels too. 🙂

Both Sharp-shinned and Cooper’s take birds and can be found near bird feeders looking for a meal and their markings/plumage are quite similar. Cooper’s are a lot bigger than Sharp-shinned which are about the size of a crow or small raven and have bare legs and usually light, rusty colored stripes along the entire length of their breast. A Cooper’s is about two to three times the size of a Sharp-shinned and the breast stripes go only about a quarter to a third of the way down.

Now if you want to see something gruesome… I’ve seen flickers come migrate in and get plastered by Coopers Hawks. I saw one, holding the flicker that was wriggling to escape, on the ground while at the same time plucking out mouthfuls of feathers. When pr

Now if you want to see something gruesome… I’ve seen flickers migrate in and get plastered by Coopers Hawks. I saw one, holding the flicker that was wriggling to escape, on the ground while at the same time plucking out mouthfuls of feathers. When procurring meet, invariably somewhere in the process it is nasty.

I’ll be a naysayer until a dispersing female is found. Until then, you are really at the mercy of South Dakota not to stop the males from taking long walks. So, are they (SD) really worried about having a lock on the breeding population (revenue)? Or do they want to keep hunting for ‘management’ of the species?

I’m concerned about what’s going to happen next year. Seeking out and killing pups and young is sounding more and more like extermination and less and less like hunting. You’d hardly call it a trophy hunt. How embarrassing. I’d like to respond to Mr. Gamblin that Idaho’s policy is what Idahoans want. That may be. But hunting in the National Parks is federal, and protecting the wolves in the parks are what the citizens of this country not only want but demand. Hunters have violated this policy and the agreement that was made. Now there are those that will call them “accidental” and unavoidable, and outside the park makes them fair game. But we know that in some cases there is a strong possibility they are not accidental, the Rocky Mountain Elk Association’s assurances notwithstanding. If these “accidents” cannot be avoided, we need a buffer zone. WY, as much as it likes to think so, does not stand alone. They have killed collared park wolves and now have gone over their quota, as we also knew they would. The RM wolves live and migrate in a range, and that makes it federal, not state.

++But hunting in the National Parks is federal, and protecting the wolves in the parks are what the citizens of this country not only want but demand. Hunters have violated this policy and the agreement that was made.++

With the exception of the Grand Teton elk hunt hunting is not allow in national parks period. What you may mean is National Forest. What goes on outside a national park is state not federal. The wolves were delisted by an act of congress whether you like it or not that is the way it is. Wyoming is going to kill wolves but not enough to put them on the endangered list.

++They have killed collared park wolves and now have gone over their quota, as we also knew they would++

So what if they go over there quota. Montana is the only state that sells mountain sheep tags over the counter. When the quota is reached the season is shut down. If they go over the quota it is not going to hurt as the quota is set low enough to compensate for kills over the quota. Wyoming set the quota low enough that an over kill would not cause long term problems.

What I meant was the hunting of the collared wolves around the park. Technically I realize they are not protected once they leave the park, but it is the principle of it. A very large percentage of collared wolves were killed. We know that many from these areas did not approve of the reintroduction programs, and now it is payback time.

I do believe that the Western states will go way over the amount the would have them relisted, but due to the cozy relationships with state governors, senators and the DOI, they will not be relisted. This is why the states act with such impunity. An unhealthy and genetically weakened popluation will remain if any.

I really do hope Ken Salazar is replaced – he has been extremely destructive to our environment in many cases.

Ida, I am not so sure ID and MT will go under quota because they have so much good habitat for wolves and they started with such high numbers–or rather, the quotas required are way too low.

But I do think WY is teetering on the edge. They have little forested habitat–mostly in the NW corner–they are not allowing dispersal with their predator classification, and they didn’t start with a very high count (exclude YNP and you have just a tiny fraction over 200). Also, they are dependent on YNP and ID for reinvigorating their genetic diversity and maintaining the numbers needed and if those wolves are being shot during hunting season (YNP) or being predated (as in the flex zone) year round, well…I am really wondering how things will play out.

The Colville Tribe has been giving signals this would happen all along, if there was potential for wolves affecting members’ opportunities for subsistence hunting of elk, deer and moose, or fears by tribal members that their livestock was at risk. They even made their management decision with democratic overtones.

From the above linked article, “A high-ranking WDFW wolf manager recently estimated that there were around 100 statewide [WA]; a final official year-end estimate is due out in a month.”

It would not be a stretch to believe the Yakama Nation would act similarly if and when wolves in any significant number reach their reservation and start working on their large proprietary elk herd near the east flank of Mt. Adams.

WM….bad PR, don’t you think? Over 75% of Washingtonians are against killing wolves….This, on top of the Wedge Pack makes me wonder if it’s an “in your face” type action.
Remember the Bolt decision? I’m sure you do.

Except for casino operations, my sense is that positive PR for some tribes is way down the list. There are a few exceptions, however. Some tribes (and individual members) just do what they want, and if you believe the justice system is flawed in the US, you will likely be very distressed by the way it is carried out in parts of Indian Country. Honoring modern day treaty obligations (as against individual tribal members) is a constant stressor for WA and OR wildlife agencies, when dealing with some tribal operations, and it is unlikely to get bettter. Of course, the US authority to deal with tribes rests largely with the Secretary of Interior – Oops!

Like whaling, I’m sure their take will be minimal in comparison to what’s going on in the rest of the country. I’m sure there’s more than meets the eye to it, and I see there’s lots of mileage being gotten from it.

“Friedman added that he’s a bit alarmed by the number of available permits for the apparent number of animals on the reservation, but then again, with now two and a half seasons under their belt, hunters in the Northern Rockies can attest that just because you have a tag doesn’t mean you’ll kill a wolf, let alone see one in the woods.”

You might find it interesting that the ESA obligations on sovereign tribal trust lands is sometimes not clear, and that it has been a topic of debate for some time, including government to government working memoranda, Secretary Orders and a patchwork of court cases. Here you can read more about the history of it, including the parts where environmental groups like CBD and Defenders have sued to get some tribal lands included in ESA habitat designations (none of these have to do with wolves, by the way).

The majority of the treaties that were signed between the tribes and the federal government had provisions in them about hunting, and those treaties supersede any state law when it comes to those hunting rights.

If the Colville tribe wanted to eradicate all wolves from off their reservation, would they be allowed to do this without any repercussions? How many wolves are they on the portion of the reservation where they are allowed to be hunted?

“If the Colville tribe wanted to eradicate all wolves from off their reservation, would they be allowed to do this without any repercussions?”
Theoretically…maybe. Not gonna happen though…some are just as militant to keep them there, even if they disappear everywhere else now.

If you had any expirience wiht the tribes usage of their “treaty” hunting rights you’d see the severe lack of stewardship by most of them. The preferred method is to drive around at night with a spotlight and take them that way.

Are you talking about wolves or wildlife in general? I assume that they can hunt wolves at night too. The most troubling thing I’ve seen is that the Colville tribes did a survey and asked their members their opinions on wolves. 16% of those who responded to the survey that they supported poisoning of wolves.

And that cuts to the heart of the matter, doesn’t it? Any of us who grew up near reservations or have frequented hunting grounds used by tribal members know they are the same human beings the rest of us are, with the same flaws and fewer rules to keep those flaws in check.

But it is socially unacceptable to acknowledge this fact in many circles. Not to mention the admirable job many tribes have done with lobbying in our state (yours formerly).

Can the colville tribes allow non-tribal hunters to hunt and kill wolves on their reservation? There are a lot of white hunters in Washington looking to gun down a wolf in Washington. What is the probability that the colville tribes will sell wolf hunting tags for non-tribal hunters who don’t live on the reservation?

Thank you for responding Bret, but I went to a hunting website and apparently, some hunter in Washington emailed the tribes about letting non-tribal members hunt wolves on their reservation and the tribes responded back in a year or two. Are you familiar with the website huntfishnw?

They will kill anything at night, wolves included.. I remember shed hunting in the Confederated Kalmath tribes hunting treaty grounds and finding pregnant does killed in march and april. They tresspass on my buddies place and kill the deer he has fed all year (doesn’t hunt). Also when the white hunters push the elk onto the klamath refuge, they show up and flock shoot them. From what I have heard from my Central washington friends, the Yaks and Colvilles are worse.

and documented injury. Like the lawsuit in NC to stop night hunting after 4 red wolves were killed. Why are lawsuits necessary to stop these patently harmful activities to animals with such low populations. What a tragedy

I have heard very little about this other than an article I read yesterday in the Columbian out of Vancouver, is there any links you can provide? other than news links. I am quite interested in reading the findings on this. I used to spend a bunch of time in those areas and right now am a bit concerned over a Canadian or any company mining that close to St. Helens.

Thank you for responding Bret, but I went to a hunting website and apparently, some hunter in Washington emailed the tribes about letting non-tribal members hunt wolves on their reservation and the tribes responded back in a year or two. Are you familiar with the website huntfishnw?

Ha! Why am I not surprised. I knew there was going to be a payoff involved somewhere.

After spending over 30 years recovering the population of grizzlies, and now when many of their food sources are threatened as well as connectivity problems, I can’t understand why people like Servheen want delisting. The G&F warden spoke to our landowners this summer and the rap is that grizzlies will find new food sources. The only one he mentioned was Russian olives. Of course, those trees are in the bottom lands where people live.

I never hear these management people talking about working on connectivity and just can’t understand why.

Or, they could try paying attention to what they are told by park officials about keeping out of bears’ way. Killing them is not the answer, unless there is unavoidable conflict such as what a hunter may run into. Even there, take the ethical approach.

Although the bear/human deaths in the park are mentioned. The number of human/bear confrontations outside the parks has had a steep increase in the last few years.

I see far more grizzlies where I live than I did just 10 years ago. The area I live in has seen little human population increase, but has had a large increase in the conflicts with those of us living in this area.

I can imagine, the areas that have both human as well as bear population increase are going to continue to have much larger conflict issues.

I think our F&W people should be the ones to do it, not hunters. A pro-active approach to bear-human conflicts. Unless there is a hunter’s life at risk and he or she needs to make the decision. We should learn from the free-for-all that’s called wolf management how things turn out when the general public is involved.

They are not “hit squads”. As we know, they do “remove” animals that present a danger to the public now. It’s better than some idiot going out there and targeting collared wolves because “we don’t like ’em!”

Really it does not matter who kills them, there are going to be many people bitching about it.

Based on what I am reading, if there is a season put forth for grizzlies, Its not going to be for many bears. Last I heard, they are talking single digit tag numbers. Those tags are going to sell for some very high dollars and would probably be a once in a lifetime tag, like moose and sheep are currently in Montana.

Savebears, I can tell you that many people who live in bear country do not want to do simple things to deter bears–i.e. bear-proof canisters, not keep chickens (or at least keep them in an electric fenced area); one bear was put down for getting into someones hay which they didn’t store properly.

A lot of people just think they should be able to do what they’ve been doing before, or they move into the area and think they have the ‘right’ to handle their storage how they want.

The WY G&F wanted only one rule inserted in a new planning document for the county several years ago and that was that people living within a certain area needed to have bear-proof garbage cans. The county wouldn’t do it and there was a gigantic fuss about it from many homeowners.

Spoke with warden yesterday. He is an avid trapper. I spoke to him, not as someone who opposes trapping, but how to make sure dog is safe. Coyote snaring goes on in MN year round, no limits. Be careful in the woods at all times.

Asked about cable restraints imstead of snares, and he said MN trappers assoc. would really fight it as most trappers(snarers) would have to replace most of their equipment. Most often, areas with snares baited with beaver or deer carcasses. Keep an eye out for ravens and gray jays that will feed on bait/carcass. Yes, do have cable cutters with at all times: illegal sets; forgotten snares; coyote snares.

Conibears: how they are supposed to be set, danger is present, but avoidable. If one smells skunk-like odors(no skunks up here) chances of conibears present as area is odor is a “lure”. Keep dogs away from water’s edge during trapping season for water sets.
Know how to open conibears. Also, your know your dog will be struggling. Depending on maker of conibear, some springs can be opened by hand, others you require rope, or as mentioned in posting by Leslie, industrial zip tie.
If illegal set, such as a conibear 330, on land, your dog is, could put many descriptors here, is gone.

Another nugget that popped up in the discussion was hunters shooting wolves, only to find out they have mange, making the pelt worthless/useless, and just leaving the wolf where it was shot. Illegal.

Good forensics (could deter poaching) and requiring wolf carcuss be turned in (for ID) and then surrendered back to shooter would help. Would provide wolf-hunting ‘posers’ with a photo opportunity if they wish (EGO!) and enable genetic study also (like bear ribs in some spots)…hate to see such wasted info easily collected by willing participants, even under these circumstances. Might be only way to get a real ‘overview’ of take after this year.
Just throwing out suggestions for your next warden visit if they hunt next year.

Immer, what kind of cable cutters do you recommend? Also, I’m not sure what they are called, but there is a lot of bobcat trapping in the winter around me. I’ve come across clamp type traps and I can’t figure how to open them. They seem to take a lot of strength. They tie them with a cable to a tree, so I can cut the cable if needed.

In WY they are supposed to ‘mark’ where their traps are by hanging something or some sign. Doesn’t always happen though.

Sort of sacrilegious, but I ordered mine through the F&T Trading Post. I’m going to pick up, either through that site or locally a conibear or two, Warden said different makers have different strength springs, and a leg hold or two, in order to make sure I know how to open them quickly.

MN regulations, looks like conibear 280 and up must be watersets. 160’s and 220’s must be recessed at least seven inches in a cubby, and at least three feet of the ground.

Unless encountered as a water set, the 330 is illegal on land. Question is, if someone illegally sets a 330 on land, does a large dog, or for that matter a wolf, have any chance at survival? Would its trachea be crushed?

Most of the procedures don’t involve using strong hands. With conventional legholds, you will likely need to stand on the spring or springs. With a conibear, you’ll need a piece of rope to get the springs compressed so you can open the jaws. You could cut the conibear to pieces with heavy bolt cutters, but it’s not practical to carry a tool of that size.

Thanks. I haven’t seen any of the body traps but the leg hold. I have one at home (away this month tho) and when I get back I’ll work on seeing if I can use the methods with stepping on it to release.

My dog almost got into one last year. There’s a guy who sets his trap every year about 100 yards from a main parking area (where the only outhouse is along a very long mountain road). Although not illegal, I find it unethical and lazy. If my dog had gotten in that, I wouldn’t have been able to open it. Last year I saw a fox with a maimed up leg and I think he’d gotten trapped in a leghold trap probably for some other animal and was able to get out. I found him dead.

Absolutely not! Just trading notes back and forth so our dogs Do NOT become statistics. Sources for my posts include suggestions from Carter Niemeyer, the MNDNR, and a MN game warden. Wouldn’t you consider it comparable to wearing blaze orange in the woods during hunting season?

I was just wondering, I don’t want to see anyone or anybodies dog get caught in a trap, I was not making any accusations at all. As a bowhunter I am not required to wear orange and I don’t go out during gun season anymore.

Didn’t think you were (making accusations). Just with the wolf trapping going on, and finally paying attention to regulations, I’ve become aware of how much trapping is going on, by folks who know what they’re doing, and those that don’t. Just trying to be cautious.

Oh, and yes during deer rifle season, except for walking a road, dog and I both in orange, stay pretty much on own land.

“With a conibear, you’ll need a piece of rope to get the springs compressed so you can open the jaws. You could cut the conibear to pieces with heavy bolt cutters, but it’s not practical to carry a tool of that size.”

If you’re concerned about encountering body-grip traps, buy a set of setting tongs. They’re much faster than attempting to loop a belt or cord through the spring eyes, while your dog is struggling to survive. They fold into a fairly compact unit that can easily be lashed to a pack, and they can open a body-grip in seconds.

I think “cheaters” are the metal extensions that slide over the spring tabs on a coil spring trap – basically providing you more leverage to relax the jaws.

“…do you need the big (29″) or will the medium (21″) work for most body grip traps found in the woods used on wolves and coyotes?”

I’m not sure that body-grip traps are intentionally used on wolves and coyotes, I don’t believe they’re legal, but I don’t know the regulations of every state.

In any case, the one you’re going to encounter most often is the 220 size. A person with average strength would be able to open one with the 21″ tongs. If you want more leverage, or if there’s a possiblity you might encounter 330-size traps, get the 29″.

CAUTION: not sure whether the 330 tool works on the smaller Conibears — I think it should but it might not. Have to watch the video again when my info retention is better. Note also that he’s not working to save an animal. You’d likely need to stand on the trap chain or put a piece of rope on it to stand on while you release it (probably an advantage to the tongs).

Watch the video I linked above with the guy setting his Conibears with 550 cord – pretty slick, and easier to keep in a coat pocket.

I’m going to buy a couple of conibears just to practice, and to keep on hand for workshops.

Do you think that the average person is going to know how to release their dog if caught in a conibear trap? Any dog that comes into contact with a conibear trap will most likely be killed more times then not. I just cannot figure out for the life of me why these particular things are allowed on public lands.

jon
A person on public lands should know what to do if-
You encounter large predators.
All sorts of different humans.
Your injured.
Encounter rutting animals.
Bad weather.
Different types of traps and a whole host of other dangers. Traps have been on the land for hundreds of years call it historical range or the percentage of dogs that die from traps is very small compared to all the causes of dog deaths. That make you fell better.

Jon: that’s the whole point. The average person does not know how to release their dog from a Conibear. That’s why several of us are getting that information out there. I’m not thrilled that the risk is out there, but I’d much rather have the know-how than not.

Heck, there was a guy in the Bitterroot who didn’t know how to get a regular leghold trap off his dog the other day — and that’s a trap I think of as almost self-explanatory.

With YouTube, sites like this one, and other sources, I think the average dog owner who might actually encounter traps can at least know what to do, rather than just watch their dog die in agony.

Don’t worry, I highly doubt that having this knowledge will cause anyone to suddenly support trapping.

All the videos make it look easy. There’s no dog flopping about fighting for it’s life. I guess if your animal has the importance in yor life that it should, you get some traps and practice. Rope/tug line always easy to carry. That snappy chain looks good, and easy to carry, setting tongs probably the least easy to transport, perhaps quickest to compress springs?

Jon,

To answer your question, most people have no idea what a conibear is, let alone know how to compress the springs. There exists no time for analysis. The traps are bloody efficient. They are killing traps.

When I was nine years old I purchased a 110 Conibear trap and was able to open the jaws and set it by myself. Never used it in the field. They are simple to figure out. I saw some 330 Conibears the other day at the store they are a different animal, caution should be used around them. They most are used in water sets for beaver.

Understood, I just don’t think cost is a valid reason to not replace snares with cable restraints – being able to release animals unharmed from cable restraints should be enough to convince any wildlife agency of the benefits.

I’m reading through these comments at the end of the evening it strikes me how bizarre it is that you live in such amazing places and you can’t enjoy them because these devices make it impossible to be safe in the environment. Its bizarre that everyone of your residents is not outraged and do not work together to get rid of these horrendous devices.

It strikes me the guy could be a pretty credible resource with working knowledge he is willing to pass on to an inquiring mind. Immer could make a credibility/COI determination for himself. Who you looking for, some numb nutz PETA staffer, who got his knowledge off the internet or from talking to another PETA staffer who also got all his knowledge off the internet?

By your standards Carter Neimeyer would be suspect. I expect most trappers aren’t too keen on pulling somebody’s dog out of their trap, alive, injured or dead either. No money or joy in that, most likely, so why not share preventive knowledge or safe release information?

He’s a good guy. When you spend your entire life in the woods, your interests may well be different. He was very helpful while addressing my concerns, especially for specific signs that would indicate the presence of traps.

“During the conversation, I was surprised to hear that moose, while not common, are one of the incidental catches in snares. Just their noses, but just the same…”

This can be largely avoided by keeping snares or cable restraints away from forest openings or field edges. When ungulates approach these areas they scan them visually and then almost invariably lower their noses in an attempt to pick up odors.

Immer, if the MN trappers association wants to preserve their trapping privileges they should be lobbying hard to replace snares with cable restraints, and to update the body-grip regulations to prevent the kind of incidents with dogs that we’re hearing about.

where you and I differ radically is that you personally attack others as you just have done twice this evening to me. “needing ibuprofen in the AM, and being bamboozled” You are petty and mean spirited. You do it quite a bit. It does not come from passion or reason and certainly is not quick witted or funny. Just mean.

Please! Believe me, Jeff and I have gone at each other over the last couple of years, but you. You are just as nasty as anyone else on this blog, you attack, belittle, condemn and do anything you can to put your opponent in the corner, then you really bear down.

Not to pile it on. This is meant in good faith. The warden was professional, not a hint of “good old boy”. Bent over backward to be helpful, understood my uneasiness about trapping, and liked my shepherd to boot.

Who would you think makes a better warden, one who has never trapped or hunted, or one who has trapped and hunted most of his life, therefore quick to locate and identify what might be awry? Anyone in any type of law enforcement also requires some pretty thick bark.

Immer I understand your viewpoint but I think it would be awful nice to see some balance in these agencies. I think a better warden is not dependent on whether one has experience trapping. Its a conflict of interest. You can also ask the question, what does this warden do when he comes across an old trapping buddy breaking the rules? Its like saying all of our policemen should have experience as a criminal or as a drug addict or petty thief. In reality they would not be considered for the position.

Meet the kettle calling the pot black, you have a very good way about you as well, you don’t like it when anyone disagrees with you. As you go through this life, especially when it comes to wildlife issues, you will soon find out, that your opinion is one in the vast seas of opinion.

This is what your landscape has become a place where you have to carry various instruments to cut killing machines, you can’t let your dogs run free and you may get to see animals choked to death or stuck and dying in these things. Horrible

Should a person be allowed to let their dogs run free on state or federal lands? I do not think so. One is not able to run a “Belled Mare” on the national forest why should an individual be allowed to let their dog run free. (if you are wondering what a “Belled Mare” is google CM Russell Belled Mare and see a copy of the picture) In national parks one is not allowed to have there dog on the trail.

Nothing pisses me more than someone’s dog barking, pawing or jumping up on me while I am hiking on national forest land. On horseback a barking dog could cause the horse to buck or bolt causing injury to the rider. The rider has control of their animal until the dog starts barking and nipping on it’s heels. Or worst after a uphill mountain bike ride I enjoy going downhill fairly fast then having to brake for a loose dog. I am not much of a dog person kept your dog on the leesh and on the trail traps will not be the problem.

Not to split hairs, for being what I consider a responsible dog owner, I understand your concerns for dog encounters, and the Predicaments some put their dogs in, and for that matter people and other animals.

On “hiking” trails, the leash is always with me. On the days of the dog and I both carrying packs, the leash is their, yet all but impossible to use. The same when dog and I are hooked into sleds or simply Skiing on lakes in the BWCAW. When widening deer trail to make my own hiking trails, on county land, marking trail, cutting through balsam and alder, a leash is not feasible. Also, there are times in the woods, when yor not lost, you just don’t know where your at. A simple lefs go home, and the dog brings you back to familiar terrain.

Then you also have hunting dogs (bird dogs in particular) dogs with a different function, getting trapped.

I don’t think any of us, Louise included advocates letting dogs “run wild”. If they do that and run into a snare or conibear, you either won’t find them, or won’t be able to get there in time.

I’d like to think that those of us who were talking traps and dogs are responsible for our dogs action and whereabouts, and there are times when leashes are simply unfeasable to use or are not needed, ie your dog is close, real close.

Sorry to go on and on. The last twenty years or so, my dogs have been both companions and worked. They have been under control, not a whole lot different than your horses and mules. Again, Not an attack, just an explanation for time and place and being prepared for any given occurrence.

My dogs go with me and the horses and mules when we’re in the hills. They’re too big to pack and I have yet to figure out how to lead mules and manage dog leashes, so they trot along with us. One of my co-workers takes his pointers along to give them some miles. They tend to range out more than my stockdogs but they’re all under voice control and are friendly to everybody they meet.

I have run into dogs that aren’t like that. I especially remember a bad encounter dropping off Froze-to-Death Plateau 20 years ago. We had on big backpacks, which may have made us look a little freaky to this dog. He and his people were camped pretty much on the trail, and he thought we were invaders. I didn’t have bear spray back then (nor did anyone think there was much chance of a grizzly encounter in the Beartooths back then!), so I just braced myself to get bitten. I think we all handled it about as well as we could’ve, but that stuck with me.

“Its like saying all of our policemen should have experience as a criminal or as a drug addict or petty thief. ”

Except trapping, when performed per rules and regulations, is a legal activity. You loathe it, that’s fine, but it’s legal.

As to all westerners being afraid to go afield for fear of being eaten by a trap or losing their dogs to a trap – complete utter hysteria. Get a grip Louise, focus on issues where science and consensus can make a difference, and stop expecting the world to join PETA and jump on your bandwagons today. You also might seek some counseling. I say that with the best intentions – your posts here often make me think you have completely lost any rational perspective and are far too emotionally invested in some of these issues than is healthy. Moderation in all things and find some balance. Seek some good news once in a while and stop believing all of the hype – there are many good, ethical, caring, and committed wildlife folks in our professions and there are many success stories.

“You also might seek some counseling. I say that with the best intentions – your posts here often make me think you have completely lost any rational perspective and are far too emotionally invested in some of these issues than is healthy.”

Wow talk about too emotionally invested. I need counseling because you don’t agree with my posts (which I do keep civil), and jumping right in on the bully bandwagon as soon as it starts rolling. Like I said last night…some pretty mean spirited comments.
But to address your comment “As to all westerners being afraid to go afield for fear of being eaten by a trap or losing their dogs to a trap – complete utter hysteria.” what I said was,
“This is what your landscape has become a place where you have to carry various instruments to cut killing machines, you can’t let your dogs run free and you may get to see animals choked to death or stuck and dying in these things. Horrible”
I wrote this after reading a number of posts here about people concerned about their pets and the placement of traps and snares in the environment. Following a post and responding with a comment directed at the use of traps and how they are impacting the landscape and wildlife in the western states is not hysteria. The comment was directly related to the posts here and the news elsewhere. Your response is the hysterical reaction. You might try reading the post before jumping in to draw blood – because you perceived a whiff of it in the air when you read the comment about needing tylenol. try staying on point, and being civil and rational.

I read these comments from the bottom up. When I read the “you also might seek some counseling” comment,I was sure it would come from the master of condescension who frequently posts to this site. Instead, I see that the original master has a challenger. The many personal attacks directed at Louise here are pathetic and sad and remind me that Rachel Carson was attacked as unscientific, hysterical, emotional, and more.

I very much enjoy hiking with just my dog. I love to be able to let her run–like most dogs, she doesn’t want to live her entire life penned or at the end of a leash. If I choose my public land carefully, I can let her run. I would never take her on a popular hiking trail unleashed as she’s protective of me (and the leash itself has a lot to do with that, too), and for that reason, I avoid popular hiking trails.

Our favorite spot is a semi-wild, permanently gated road part-way up a maintained FS road. If another car is at the turnout when I get there, I don’t stop. If I have it to myself–and I almost always do–off we go with bear spray and leash handy. She literally bounds along with pleasure in her freedom. But between 12/1 and 12/15, the latter date being when the FS access road is gated at the bottom, I don’t go there for fear of traps. Yes, I have the cable cutters for snares and ropes for body grip traps, but I feel the risk is too great. Heck, I don’t even know if trappers use it–we walk in a couple miles–but the mere threat is deterrent enough, and yes, this angers me.

Oh, “trapping is legal.” Well, many backward, hurtful, unjust and immoral practices were once legal until human thinking evolved–and things changed only because that evolution was pushed by people of conscience and truth who were consequently attacked as emotional, hysterical, unscientific…and more.

Aside from the graphics in the top two/three rows of stuff on this page, if you scroll to about halfway down there’s a panel called “polar drift” that might indicate a shift that birds, who seem to navigate via magnetic influence, could be an explanation or even a partial explanation… maybe?

Just saw they reached their quota of 8 wolves in my WY area, hunt area 2, directly adjacent to the eastern edge of the Park. I wish I could know the breakdown of pups/adults/ Park wolves…Really saddens me.

Yes, and many of them I’ve seen and watched and run into when hiking at close range. That makes it much harder to be divorced and just think of it all as numbers, like the number of car accident deaths this car.

I have deer and elk hang out in my yard every single year, in fact many fawns have been born on the edge of my yard in a thicket just off the edge.

I fully understand that many of them are taken by hunters every single year, both predator as well a human.

I am sorry becoming emotionally attached to wildlife is always going to end up hurting you.

I really enjoy the wildlife that I see in my yard every year, but never allow myself to become attached to them. There are to many variables that will take them away, humans are only a small percentage of what take them.

It is true animals die for all sorts of reasons. Wolves kill each other, regularly. But there is something to hunting for trophy, for sport only, that carries a lot of difficulty for me.

SB When you go hunting for food, I assume you are aware you are taking a life; when you hunt for meat you are aware that this animal is giving its life to feed you. That constitutes a kind of prayerful moment, a ‘thank you’ to the animal, and that’s a moment that makes the animal equal to you in its sacrifice. A hunter friend of mine said that when you stop feeling that, it’s time to stop hunting. Those are words of a human being.

I have to wonder if that is what those men felt before they pulled the trigger on those wolves.

That is why I am having much difficulty with this wolf hunt. This is not philosophical. It is emotional and gut level stuff, and I know as a hunter you must have experienced those moments.

While you and others might find personal distress in the killing of wolves, control of their numbers was ALWAYS part of the plan for reintroduction of the NRM “non-essential experimental population” wolves that are the subject of the state management actions in ID, MT, WY, and now on the Colville reservation in WA, which was part of the NRM DPS range.

There was never any thought among the states and FWS (or even a statutory obligation under the ESA), that wolf populations would be allowed to grow to some sort of natural density. NEVER.

From that flows the fact that wolves at some point would be killed (as they have been in livestock control actions for years), and the current and perhaps overzealous hunting. That will ALWAYS be part of the management program. The question is just how many will be killed through hunting and livestock control actions each and every year forward from the date of delisting. That will not change.

Each person, whoever he/she is, and in whatever capacity (hunter, rancher, at risk pet owner, or employee of an agency doing control work)must make the personal decision whether to kill a wolf. For some maybe it is a gut wrenching emotional matter as you suggest, and for others it is as easy as flipping off a light switch. And for those in the latter catagory it does not suggest any deviant pathology. Trying to get inside the heads of any of those folks will only bring you more emotional pain, and there is little you can do about it. Why torture yourself over this, unless you derive something from the pain. It seems it is like self mental flaggelation for some here. Get consumed by the pain or buck up. The choice is yours.

That being said (and I am sure some will hate me even more for raising the issue), I do share some your views on the unfortunate loss of the YNP wolves that would have been nice to spare because of their viewing history, AND the loss of research benefit. This, of course, may have been prevented somewhat with a buffer zone and discouraging these yutzes from shooting collared wolves.

And for those in the latter catagory it does not suggest any deviant pathology.

I think for some it does. Not everyone of course. But blunting yourself to the wrong in the world because uou think there’s nothing you can do about it only suceeds in letting if flourish. The “good men who do nothing” approach. I think for most of us, we realize that numbers would have to be controlled, but we would have imagined a more benevolent approach, not declaring war on them or an anything goes approach. Something more science-based and less politically based. I think we can tighten up the rules and still control the wolf population, and isn’t that the goal, as you say? It looks more and more like indulging our more base instincts is the goal.

It doesn’t give me emotional pain, I am not emotionally connected to any one animal. That is more propaganda. If anything, those who have the obsession about one particular animal have been those who have won the current battle. I am emotionally connected to the natural world, and it does give me some pain to see it abused, I admit. But I’ll live, I assure you. 😉

🙂 thanks! I do enjoy viewpoints other than my own, a lot. Believe it or not. It does give me some pain, I admit, to see just plain killing for no reason. Or people taking advantage of what the objective was supposed to be, or what we are led to believe it is.

Your last paragraph is very telling…the collared YNP wolves could have been spared through legislation…but they CHOSE not to. This is a good example of why unrestricted libertarianism doesn’t work…some just can’t be trusted to ‘do the right thing’. Somebody is always looking for cheap shot.

If I understand correctly, making a decision to not hunt the collared ones, would be a distinction the researchers and the wildlife agencies did not want to happen, because it makes these individual wolves “different” for statistical purposes. It would also deviate from the general policy that collared animals of whatever species may be harvested. I tend to believe in this instance an exception would be in order. By the way, it would not require legislation, just an administratively adopted rule like any other game rule seen in the hunter or fisher pamphlets.

NJ bear hunt ends tomorrow,12/07; They taken about 150 bears,many cubs in the mix.Last year was approx. 359 bears. Some people think that they reached their quota,that is why their are more cubs taken this year. The state has no law on taking cubs, seems they just don’t care about the age of the bears. Some residents are angry that one of the weigh in stations is close to traffic,where kids going to school can see all the dead bears. In my opinion this should stop now,too many bears have been killed,with more cubs now in the line of fire,just doesn’t make sense,and this is called hunting.

“The permanent rule would: limit to six the number of dogs used for hunting or training on wolves; require the dogs to wear a collar or have a tattoo with the owner’s name and contact information; allow training of dogs for wolf hunting only during normal hunting hours (not at night); and restrict training of dogs on wolves to the day after the gun deer season (late November) through March 31.

The proposal also states no license is required to train dogs on free-roaming wolves. And the dogs are not required to be on a leash.”

The proposal that a little killin’ spree would let off steam and then settle down was dead wrong, it appears to be making it worse.

What I wonder is why these traps and hunting rights take precedence over the majority of the people who are just out walking their dogs and peacefully enjoying nature. We should not have to accomodate hunters because they are in the minority.

Seems like the DNR are ignoring the lawsuit and the court ruling as well. The hunters are whining that this is about hunter’s rights. Hunters should not have the right to use their dogs on animals that can easily kill them. It’s absurd to think that no dogs are going to be hurt or killed chasing after wild wolves.

This is what Big Game Forever posted today….They see no problem with killing collared wolves, call the people working to create buffer zones “radicals” – radicals are always from other states, they never mention the resident/ constituents that object to the hunts. Wolves are always the cause of decline….
These people are single minded in their purpose to kill wolves and to get others worked up to kill them with as much fervor.

From Big Game Forever….
Folks,

Hunters in Montana need your help today. There is a major effort to create a no-wolf hunting zone around Yellowstone National Park. Radical activists from California, New York and other states are sending messages to pressure Montana to close these wolf hunts. The elk and moose in these herds are in serious trouble. The Northern Yellowstone elk herd alone has lost approximately 15,000 elk since wolves were introduced. That is a loss of at least 70% of the Northern Yellowstone Herd that just 20 years ago numbered over 20,000 elk. (citation: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/15/yellowstone-elk-decline_n_808456.html)

Let’s show Montana that hunters from around the country care about the demise of the Northern Yellowstone Moose and Elk herds by sending messages to Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks Commissioners. Let’s show that we support restoration of these critical wildlife resources and responsible predator management by keeping these wolf hunts open.

Montana hunters have been sending similar messages in advance of a FWP Commission meeting on Dec. 10th. In the first 24 hours, 350 Big Game Forever supporters in Montana had sent messages. That number has quickly grown to 600 messages, again just from our Big Game Forever supporters in Montana. This is a great start, but the anti-hunting groups are sending thousands of messages from outside of Montana. Let’s even the score by sending hundreds or thousands of more messages from hunters across America to save the Northern Yellowstone herd.

Here is one message that a friend forwarded from Defenders of Wildlife that should concern every conservation minded sportsmen in America, it reads in part, “We didn’t think the situation in Wyoming (or Montana) could get any worse–but it just did…at least seven Yellowstone National Park wolves have been shot and killed…five of these animals were wearing radio collars…the killing of Yellowstone wolves is unconscionable…Tell the governors of Wyoming and Montana to shut down the wolf hunt immediately in lands adjacent to the park.” We are hearing reports that groups like Defenders of Wildlife and others have been sending messages for over a week. They are working hard to close the wolf hunt around Yellowstone.

We have been told that some groups like DOW can send thousands of messages on behalf of their members. We don’t do that. We do make it easy to use our automated system, but if you don’t act, your message will not be sent. Let’s keep the momentum going. There are 25,000 hunters who are receiving this message today. We need your support to save the Northern Yellowstone elk and moose herds.

Let’s keep the momentum going. Please ask your neighbors, work associates, hunting buddies or anyone else you can think of to send a message today. We need a lot more messages to counter the work of anti-sportsmen and anti-grazing forces.

Something definitely needs to be done. There are also rumors that some hunters are trying to kill yellowstone wolves on purpose meaning they are trying them to lure them out of the park, just so they can shoot and kill them. The hunters apparently are still angry about there being less elk in the park than before wolf reintroduction.

John, wondering where you saw that info. If recent,like last few days, probably the 8th wolf in my area.

George Frison, WY premier archaeologist writes: “If there is one thing that separates present-day sport hunting from prehistoric hunting at a subsistence level, it is this lack of respect for the animals…”

That is the essence of my beef with this wolf hunt. It has nothing to do with “personal distress” or “emotional attachment”, it has everything to do with the feeling that its ‘just 8 wolves’ and I don’t mean that personally SB, but I feel thats a symptom of society. I have had to work on, at the place I volunteer, USF&W heads of wolves brought in and prepared them as specimens. I am not a squeamish person.

“The Forest Service’s decision to prohibit hunting deer with dogs on KNF property in Louisiana was issued Feb. 29, 2012. The Forest Service decision was affirmed by their Washington Office on Sept. 28, 2012. A lawsuit was filed on Nov. 16, 2012, by Louisiana Sportsmen Alliance, LLC, challenging the decision. While the Forest Service intends to vigorously defend the lawsuit, the decision will not be implemented at this time and the 2012 “with or without dogs” deer season will proceed Dec. 15-23, 2012.”

No cost permit and ‘bucks only’. How does a dog differentiate from a buck and a doe?

It depends on how the dogs have been train, although I don’t agree with running deer with dogs, it has gone on for a long time now in LA, most of the guys have known that run deer with dogs, use buck urine and buck musk glans to train them.

Yeah, I’ve done some dog running too (and used to live in Louisiana). My current dog is a black and tan/walker mix (half black and tan, half one night stand). She’s mostly a trash runner, so she’s not going to keep keep her head down long enough to keep on scent. I’m too nice to continually ‘retrain’ her too. She’s 8.
My point was that most dogs will still flush does and it takes a LOT of discipline to keep them on ‘bucks only’ with does running by left and right. Yes, buck scent gets the job done for the ones that ‘pay attention in class’.

If you have run dogs, then you know it takes extreme dedication to keep them trained to run just the animal you are focused on. More dedication that many that have never been around hunting dogs realize.

The environmental community whose outcry spawned the investigation in the first place is still vocal on the issue, criticizing what they see as an inappropriate use of federal funds. To date, nearly 44,000 people have signed a Change.org digital petition urging the U.S. Department of Agriculture to fire Olson, and a similar petition launched Nov. 4 at Causes.com has more than 22,000 signatures.

A Nov. 1 letter from the Animal Welfare Institute and Project Coyote urged Krischke to terminate Olson’s employment immediately, calling the actions depicted in Olson’s photos “unacceptable behavior for any trapper,” but “particularly egregious when done by a government employee.”

Salle thanks for posting this. This lack of accounting for the sociality of wolves in management plans is a big problem, as the author writes, “Our management plans are written to manage wolves by the numbers, but in fact wolves survive in large part because of their social structure and behavioral interactions, neither of which are easily quantified. Wolves may be scientifically identified as Canis lupus and physically described in detail, but as the most social wild mammal in North America, wolves survive as packs through order dictated by social stature and their subsequent interactions and with the efficiency manifested through this structure. Killing one wolf may very well imperil many – but still be counted as one mortality. Numbers count, but they do not describe life.” Great post thank you

++…wolves survive as packs through order dictated by social stature and their subsequent interactions and with the efficiency manifested through this structure. Killing one wolf may very well imperil many – but still be counted as one mortality. Numbers count, but they do not describe life.”++

Who are we to believe, cinematographer and wolf advocate Dr. Camenzind, or full time wolf researcher Dr. David Mech, Dr. Luigi Boitani, Dr. Marco Musiani and others who have studied wolves for decades?

Dr. Mech has gone on the public record as saying wolves seem to do OK even when deaths to some pack members disrupt social order.

And, even if what Camenzind suggests might be true what does that portend for controlling numbers of wolves? Does it mean the best way for states to control numbers with minimization of social stress reordering or attendant mortality is to kill entire packs? Like that will work. Or, is he just stirring the pot a little?

++No one believes that a shoot on sight “kill zone” is good science, WM.++

Back to your sloppy reading comprehension, there Mike. I have not now, nor have I ever, supported the concept in WY, even though it appears, based on Judge Johnson’s ruling, to be permissible under the ESA, as long as WY meets their minimum number obligation(along with some genetic connectivity via the corridor) under the FWS Plan. Personally, I don’t think it is good idea.

I am defending nothing in respect to the Caminzind statement other than offering the other side of the issue, which seems to have credible weight of authority by those who study wolves full time.

“Still, Roell said, non-lethal methods have been successful where they’ve been implemented. The farms are mostly clustered where there is good farming land, near Engadine, in northern Baraga County, Houghton County and in the Ontonagan area. The DNR has also helped farmers in the Menominee area with non-lethal controls, which haven’t seen any repeat problems so far in 2012.

But Roell warns that not every non-lethal method will work on every farm.

“They’re not a magic bullet. They don’t work all the time, every day,” said Roell. “These are kind of the minimizing or mitigation type things we can try to do to lessen the problem.”

Cattle are a known reservoir of Shiga toxin-producing Escherichia coli. The prevalence and stability of Shiga toxin and/or Shiga toxin genes among native wild ungulates in Idaho were investigated. The frequency of both Shiga genes and toxin was similar to that reported for Idaho cattle (~19%).

First described in 1982, enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli have emerged as a major cause of human morbidity

While salmon have increased significantly since their lows in the early 90’s they are still listed as threatened or endangered under the Endangered Species Act. Unfortunately, I don’t think that the good times will last for them though. The last decade has been very good for Idaho’s salmon, not because of anything we humans did but because of a good cycle of ocean conditions.

With a warming climate and without ever addressing the real problems Idaho’s salmon face, the 8 dams, I think they are in big trouble. When ocean conditions inevitably decline, because they are cyclical and can’t stay above average forever, things could go down hill rapidly and we could be right back in the situation we were in during the early 90’s.

here’s some classic Inverted Thinking for you. US Fish and Wildlife is ” leaning towards” lifting the snowmobile ban in 30,000 acres of critical Woodland Caribou habitat in far northern idaho in the Selkirk Mountains. The Thrillmobilers are miffed they can’t drive their sleds up and over the Selkirks. USFWS originally proposed ten times thata creage—over 300,000 acres—to protect the dwindling Selkirk caribou herd. As few as 30 animals may live in the area, and not very many times that in the British Colmbia Selkirks.. .maybe a grand total of 150 animals.No one really knows.

So it sounds like the reasoning is : the US portion of the habitat sustains so few Caribou it’s not worth the bother. At least that’s my take on it.

Footnote: the Woodland Caribou , or Rocky Mountain Reindeer, used to range all the way down into western Wyoming. They were gunned out in the late 1800’s. Classic extinction at the hands of man. I am most irked by the apparent clout these snowmobilers have over this issue. Such grandiose arrogance and selfishness.

Bonner County and the Idaho State Snowmobiling Association have filed a petition seeking to delist woodland caribou as an endangered species. The groups say the caribou’s range is mostly in Canada and only a handful of the critters venture south into the U.S. nowadays.

The investigation into the actions of USDA trapper Jamie Olson are still being investigated. While I have very little faith in their internal investigation, I’m glad a Wyoming newspaper finally covered it:

Of the 2,033 comments, all but 84 were opposed to the agency’s original plan, with many opposed to any hunting in state parks, according to a memo to the board from DNR Secretary Cathy Stepp. The overriding concern was the potential for stray bullets and arrows to hit people hiking, skiing, canoeing or biking in the state’s 54 parks, 41 trails and 53 segments of the Ice Age and North Country trails.

According to a summary compiled by the DNR, comments included: “Is the state willing to bear the liability if someone is shot?” and “Why do the few hunters get this privilege when the majority of park users are put at risk?” and “I do not want to ski, snow shoe and hike my state parks with guns going off …” and “No amount of safety zone is enough!”

“from Door County talked about how the prolonged winter hunting season would deter visitors, and others talked about safety concerns, including how hikers and skiers would be vulnerable to stray bullets and traps”

Rather ironic that there was so much hype from some of the WI hook and bullet club about wolves making the woods unsafe, bus stops, etc adnauseum.

Anyone want to take the wager that if this really goes through, somebody is accidentally shot and killed in one of these new hunting meccas before a wolf kills someone in Wisconsin.

It’s a national sickness. I’m a little annoyed today because I had to listen to gunshots in the woods around my home – at night. I have never heard that before, or knew that it was legal in my state. Probably hunting coyotes or foxes or shootin’ anthing that moves, I guess. It is extremely annoying to have hunters interfering in ordinary people’s lives. I feel I can’t walk the wooded areas of my property during hunting seasons either.

This is not meant as anti hunting. One of the anti- wolf folks from Wisconsin I used to spar with quite frequently would write that wolves cannot live around people, and that it is not the 1800’s anymore.

Your concerns are more realistic. Our firearms and hunting equipment far out strips that of the 1800’s, in particular pre Civil War. Granted hunting seasons are now limited, it does not preclude some of what goes on. If I remember correctly from a site I used to peruse, a great number of complaints about hunters pertained to trespass or night activities. Yes, when is it safe to venture into the woods?

Yes. I’m not against hunting, but where populations are expanding, the available lands to do it safely are dwindling. Something has to give. I usually hear it in the early morning hours during deer season, but this is the first time I have heard it at night. Also, I have heard shooting in the off season during the summer dry season, which is a fire hazard. Thanks, Immer!

Aves terrible news – a population on its way to extinction. In your opinion do you think the state should shut down coyote hunting to protect the red wolf? I know the night hunting has been stopped. I always appreciate your thoughts

Louise, The coyote is a threat to the red wolf due to interbreeding with the red wolf. The recovery plan for the red wolf called for placing red wolves in areas free of coyotes. As the coyotes continue to expand in the east it is moving into red wolf range. Should we just let the red wolf go extinct?

That woman is evil and extremely anti-environmental…this is not a good sign. I honestly feel having a person like her, who has a private interest in the livestock industry is a huge conflict of interest – let alone her legislative record on environmental issues.

Had Savebears said that for Wyoming (I doubt he did) he would have been correct.

2008 – licenses sold for the big three (deer, elk, and pronghorn) = 219,068

2011 – licenses sold for the big three (deer, elk, and pronghorn) = 224,284

And you poached a very convenient portion of the article, omitting much about WGFD’s budget woes owing to having to support managment of non-game species, wildlife disease surveillance and research, habitat restoration and mitigation, etc., essentially off the backs of hunters and fisherpeople only.

A comment sent to me about the Wildlife Service Agent and coyote killing

Wildlife Services agency, not wild animals is the problem

Published: Monday, Dec. 10, 2012 – 10:12 am
Last Modified: Monday, Dec. 10, 2012 – 10:39 am
Re “Photos spark new call for wildlife agency probe” (Page A25, Dec. 9): As a long time rancher in Calif who has lived peacefully with coyotes and other predators, I am outraged that taxpayers are paying the salaries of people like Wyoming Wildlife Service trapper, Jaime Olson.

It is obvious to anyone who has seen his Facebook posts or his website, coyotehunter.net, that Olson kills because he enjoys the suffering of animals he considers worthless.

The actions of Olson and Wildlife Services are misguided, unwarranted, outdated and immoral. It is time the American public realize that we are funding the slaughter of tens of thousands of wild animals, the majority of which have not posed a threat to anything outside of their natural prey. Right now, the only wild thing the public needs to be protected from is Wildlife Services itself.

its hard to fathom this is happening in this country at this point in time. What have we learned, nothing it seems. Reading stories like these are truly disheartening. How will this ever change without laws making it illegal? I think its too much to anticipate the kind of awakening Leopold had on such a large scale while our antiquated barbaric laws do nothing to deter these sick practices.

Hello all,
After being sent a number for CNN, I contacted their story hotline to ask if anyone had called about Yellowstone’s 06 wolf being killed. Nabeki, has also posted asking people to call and other groups are doing so. I spoke with a woman, Penelope, who said that there were other calls about this and that the story team had called her to ask for further details which usually indicates the news room is interested in the story. I spoke to her for several minutes expressing my hope that she would also provide some additional information to the news team. I promised to send some additional details to her as well as contacts for her to speak with. I think its a great opportunity to get some nationwide exposure to the current story but also to ensure that attention is being paid to the aggressive hunting and trapping of wolves since the delisting and, in my mind, the reasons that the states seem poorly equipped and unwilling to manage wolves responsibly as a public trust resource. I’m going to send something out today. Are there folks here who would like to be on a contact list
Coming to mind immediately are

Living with Wolves
Wolfwatcher
Michael Robinson
George Wuerthner
Wendy Keefover

Marc Cooke

Ken Cole

Howling for Wolves, Maureen Brackett

If you have a moment and would like to be included as a contact and possible interview and feel you can contribute to the overall picture this is a good opportunity.

Best, Louise and thank you

I’ve co produced some stories with Discovery and its unusual and hard to get someone’s ear. Its also a lot of work getting the first interviews sorted out. I’d like to get a list out to her today along with some literature. I intent to send the following and would like your thoughts on others

Of wolves and welfare ranching, Gobel
Predatory Bureaucracy, Robnson
Of Wolves and Men, Lopez
Wolfer, Niemeyer
NRDCA petition for sustainable wolf recovery plan
Shadow Mountain, Renee Askin’s book
Never Cry Wolf, Farley Mowatt
Narrowing the Definition of Endangered Species:
Implications of the U.S. Government’s
Interpretation of the Phrase “A Significant Portion
of its Range” Under the Endangered Species
Act of 1973
JN. aTr.r oBwruinsgk othttee rD aenfdin Sit.i oAn. oEfn Ezlnedrangered Species JEREMY T. BRUSKOTTER1 AND SHERRY A. ENZLER2
Are Gray Wolves Endangered in
the Northern Rocky Mountains?
A Role for Social Science in
Listing Determinations
Jeremy T. Bruskotter, Eric Toman, Sherry A. Enzler, and Robert H. Schmidt
in addition the original comments and concerns stated in the recovery plan
some background information about the delisting and the

comment sets from Idaho, Wyoming and Montana, MN, Wisconsin and MI
for radical viewpoints
websites lobo watch
big game forever
safari club international

Since 1985, the farm legislation has required farmers to protect wetlands and fragile soils on their lands in order to qualify for billions of dollars a year in farm-program payments. But the bill that has emerged from the House Agriculture Committee lacks an important provision that would preserve those conservation incentives.

There’s a “Return to the Dustbowl” clause in there too – some conservation measures removed and the encouraging of plowing under native grasslands to get crop insurance. I hope they are careful with this bill because we could end up in another mess. Do we ever learn? No.

Incumbent State Senator Bob Lake(R) was elected in November to the State Public Service Commission, leaving his Senate seat vacant. At the same time, an outfitter from the south end of the valley, Scott Boulanger(R), was defeated in his bid for a Senate seat in the general election. Boulanger is about as rabid of a wolf-hater as you could imagine and has made his views well known.

Depressing news, indeed. From his outfitters page for ID wolf trapping/hunting: “We are excited to be able to offer a guided wolf hunt for the first time in the history of the Outfitting Industry! We have several backcountry camps available for wolf hunts ! This is a new hunt since wolves have been removed from the endangered species list. We utilize every trick in the tool box available to us legally. Spot and Stalk, predator calling, hunting over trapping baits, electronic calls, etc.” http://www.montanaelkhuntingoutfitters.com/boulanger/Idaho_Wolf/go

From his campaign website (includes dead wolf pic) http://www.scottboulanger.com/
“WILDLIFE ISSUES
We are under seige in Montana from the US Fish and Wildlife when they illegally introduced non-native wolves into our great state wreaking havoc with our ungulate herds. This is an issue very close and personal to me. I have been working with the FWP and the Ravalli county commissioners to reverse the trend of our disappearing deer and elk herds. The abuses of the Equal access to Justice act must be stopped. The American taxpayers are paying Millions of dollars annually to Eco-terrorist law firms that have found a loop hole in a well intended Congressional act.”

COMMENT: We cannot overestimate the value of earth orbiting remote sensors and the ” God’s Eye” view they provide in an endless stream of data. Yet Congress —especially the GOP side of the aisle—has been really really bad to the point of dereliction about keeping up with funding existing satellites and data analyses, let alone newer more advanced follow on spaceborne tech.

Our satellites are aging fast. I consider this an essential government service , as important as weather forecasting ( or more important).

Yes Cody, spot on – satellite data gaps currently are significant, and will grow in coming years. Our good friends at GAO recognized this and have recommended mitigation actions be developed by DOD, NOAA, and others, but there is no recognition of the pending crisis in weather forecasting, climatology research, natural resource research, etc. in Congress or the White House. My guess is risks to national defense and intelligence gathering will be addressed pronto.

Yes, very depressing. Boulanger’s views concerning the West Fork elk herds have already been shown to be untrue, but he steadfastly continues to believe them, as if that will make it true…

Ravalli County’s commissioners are so far off to the right they make Ronald Reagan look like a raving liberal. So,they picked Boulanger, who the voters had already rejected.

I have met several of the commissioners personally, and they buy into all sorts of conspiracy theories, right into the lunatic fringe of politics. Compromise is also not in their vocabulary.

They are wasting taxpayer’s time and money coming up with “predator and resource polices,” where they are trying to manage not only fish and game, but the national forests. Killing the wolves off and getting a big-time timber industry going again are two of their goals. FWP may buckle to them, but I doubt they’ll be calling the shots on the national forests. But, these five people are deadly serious. they are basing their efforts on “coordination,” a process where they believe they can run the show over state and federal officials. “Coordination” is defined as:

“A process mandated by federal law that requires federal agencies to coordinate their plans, programs and management activities with local governments. It is a powerful tool that can be used to protect private property rights, productive uses of land, and local economies from burdensome government regulations. Coordination works because most federal agencies are specifically directed by Congress to work with local governments through this process before implementing policies or plans that will impact the local community. It is not a process that federal agencies can opt out of, however it is rarely enforced because most local governments are not aware of this requirement and have not received training on how to implement the process. When a local government asserts its coordination authority, federal agencies, and in many cases state agencies, must coordinate current and future planning activities with that local entity.”

We invite all organizations and individuals to use it to the wolves’ advantage. Please share this film with your members on your web pages, blogs, Facebook,Twitter, and to reach out and educate decision makers and the media. It’s our contribution to the collective effort to recover federal protection for wolves. A special thanks to George Wuerthner, Marc Bekoff and Bob Landis for making this film so powerful.

Some pretty frightening comments Salle….
they made their money from fracking! yikes what are the chances they’ll be good stewards of the land or wildlife?

These were comments posted from Salle’s post
I have had the opportunity to meet Dan Wilks. He is a kind caring person. They have not come to Montana to destroy the land or run people off. It should be noted that they guided hunts for first year hunters on the N-Bar Ranch. I know some from Lewistown that took advantage of the opportunity. On another note. They are the largest private property tax payer in Fergus county. Last year they paid just over $80,000.00. The Wilk’s spend a lot of time in Lewistown and have supported the local economy. They purchase ATV’s from Lewistown Honda, vehicles from Snowy Mountain Motors. Miscellaneous supplies from Ace, Home furnshings from Wier’s flooring from Smart’s, sporting good’s from Don Store and from various other local business’s. The brother’s have been good for Central Montana.

Report Abuse
Skinwalker – 3 hours ago
That is very good to hear. So what is Dan’s number so I can call him for permission to hunt birds on his land? I am sure he won’t charge me since he is such a stand up guy.

Report Abuse
sassback – 7 hours ago
These guys are ALREADY trying to keep the public off public lands adjacent to the N-Bar Ranch! Furthermore, their 24/7 perimeter patrols conveniently manage to herd the wildlife back inside the borders. Wolves in sheeps’ clothing.

Report Abuse
lefty the cowboy – 1 hour ago
If these rumors turn out to be true, these guys will be very bad news. I have had first hand experience with large land owners who manage defacto exclusivity to public lands, and with the same using aircraft and ‘patrols’ to herd wildlife for their advantage. Few things could be more offensive, unethical and unacceptable, but the sad fact is this is too often a reality. I will continue to hope, and assume, these fellows intend to be honest and fair neighbors, unless/until I see some evidence.

Lets celebrate return of wolf packshttp://portlandtribune.com/sl/124899-lets-celebrate-return-of-wolf-packs-
The article provides some interesting numbers, like:
“• Over 600 cows died in Harney County after being fed bad hay.
• 44 unattended cows were killed by trucks in Madras when they broke through a fence.
• An Amtrak train killed 24 cows that broke through an unmaintained fence near Klamath Falls.
• Over 1,200 cows were stolen from Malheur County in just three years”.
Etc,

Everybody is in delisting mood!
It all began with an article here and there, long pause between. Now, there are several articles a day, all preaching the one magic word: delisting! The countdown for the bears has been triggered. ……..
Ah, by the way, lessons learned, shouldn´t somebody collect the collars before “management” starts in earnest?

Once the animal becomes the property of the hunter, there is no control and no telling what will happen. There is a black market trafficking in animals/animal parts that is going on right now. Every now and then you’ll read about somewhere in the West where poachers were caught and animal parts confiscated.

Sorry Louise, therre is no such thing as dam silencer, there is damn modifier. A gun can not be silence if the bullet is traveling faster than the speed of sound. Modifiers are used in Europe and can be required when hunting. I have read about certain English Estates requiring modifiers when using rifles.

It has always surprised me that they are legal in Europe with very restrict gun laws and illegal in the USA with very lose gun laws.

I would not want to use a modifier because the barrel has to be threaded. The extra weighted would make barrel contact with the forearm of the stock causing accuracy problems

well thanks for the clarification
silencer or modifier – damn them both
easier to kill multiple targets, easier for poachers, and makes it harder to be accurate. damn what will they think of next. what the hell is wrong with these agencies? God its sickening

Some of the positives include the devices being good for predator or varmint control, because a shooter can hit multiple targets without being detected. (translation: we get to kill more wolves and coyotes!)

G&F also noted they can protect the hearing of hunters and make hunting around developed areas less disruptive. (translation: Nobody will be able to hear us and call the authorities on us when we kill more wolves and coyotes!)

But the agency also noted the devices can make it easier for poachers, and can make it more difficult to enforce legal shooting hours. (translation: well, I guess ya can’t have everything.)

Do yourself a favor and don’t watch that Predator Defense video released today. Brutal video of a trapped wolf cowering, and then having its brains blown out by a short, fat white guy (which usually seems to be the case for wolf hunters).

Ugh. I already had seen it, and the sight of that poor animal cowering after that #*%*&#* shot him just about killed me. If you don’t think animals feel pain, fear, and other emotions, you are not very aware. The reason this is ok is that people are taught that they are only animals, less than human. When cold reason is valued more highly than human emotion, this is what you get – anything goes even if it turns your stomach, because there is a reason for it. Eupehmistically titled animal slaughter, and even in wars, words like consumptive users, harvesting and antipersonnel. We have degraded into a very violent society – after yesterday’s awful event, I hope that something is done. Violence against any living thing is wrong, and it is all connected.

Mike I disagree, everyone needs to watch this video. Its extremely well done. There were several carefully selected segments that did not belabor the killing but illustrated the extremely cold and brutal way that people kill wolves. I fell asleep thinking about that wolf – and her/his legs in a death twitch. It was heartbreaking and made for another restless night. This movie will help people to make the connection that the dead wolves in Yellowstone are just the tip of the iceberg. Advocates that believe wolves need federal protection, as I do, should be posting this movie everywhere. The message is that the states are not not capable of managing this resource responsibly, so the federal government should. A powerful message that was brilliantly executed.

++ I fell asleep thinking about that wolf – and her/his legs in a death twitch. ++

So did I, Louise. Bless that wolf. We are so, so much better than that. I know we are.

This issue is so much bigger than wolves, too. How we treat animals says so much about ourselves. I hope that horrified, tortured wolf is now in a place where such things don’t exist.

What a very, very sad video.

I offer my heartfelt thanks to all posters here who see that kind of behavior as shockingly unacceptable. Thank you Ida, Louise, Jon, and others for having the self-awareness and kindness to oppose such terrible behavior.

The worst thing was that you could see this sub-human taking pleasure in killing the wolf, and the wolf closing up into his or herself to try to escape the violence. The wolf was shot non-lethally first, and then whatever else came after. He was enjoying the power he had, it looked like. Human nature at its disgusting worst. A light should be shone on this. I could vomit.

This video was originally one of two Wisconsin videos of trapped wolves being shot. The shooter in the original video looked rather tepid after walking away from the wolf. From my recollection he did not look happy at all.

That said, two of three MN zones already
Met quotas and shut down for late season. Remember, legislators extende season to 1/31/13.

The video we are talking about was over three minutes long. The wolf barked at whoever was filming, and the shooter, until assuming the position in which it was shot. Perhaps something challenging in trapping the wolf. The dispatching, though quick, leaves one addled. Nothing sporting or challenging about it, unless said shooter had a conscience.

He barked? How awful. I did not see this 3-minute video and I won’t. Again, if shooting a deer for food, may be understandable – but just wasting an animal that barks like your dog, for no good reason other than they were recently taken of the Endangered list, I can’t understand.

Well, I first encountered it while reading Shakespeare in a high school English class many years ago. Not sure which play, but I recall this, because then everybody said the same thing, “what’s this word mean?” Of course, the teacher made us flounder a bit and we concluded, with her guidance, it was murder or killing of some sort with swift efficiency.

You are wrong, every single species on the planet earth manipulates its environment.

And you are wrong, there are far more than 1500 wolves in the RM, remember the rockies go farther than just the border between Canada and the US, you guys say think globally, then you stop your thinking at the border. wolves don’t recognize borders, such as we have seen outside of Yellowstone this year, but also need to understand that we we talk about how many wolves there are.

One other thing I will add, I witnessed a killing in the Lamar Valley many years ago, the druid pack had cornered a badger and the badger curled into itself to try and survive.

I have also witnessed wolves killing other wolves, and every single time, the victim curled into itself, the response of curling into itself to try and protect oneself is not unique, it is pretty universal among all species. I did it when I was shot in Iraq, I just wanted to be the smallest ball I could be to protect myself.

I did not post my message to see anyone say, they are sorry for me, but we need to start thinking out of the box and solve our own situations before we can solve those of the world.

By nature, humans are violent, as are predators, only humans think about our pending demise, I don’t believe other predators do, they exist because of the violence and they die because of violence, much like we do.

Savebears you said “By nature, humans are violent, as are predators,” there are 7 billion humans ….how many predators? wolves less then 1500 in the RM. other predators do not destroy their, or others environments or ecosystems. That is a human trait.

I think its fair to use execution in the case of wolves. Wolves are singled out for crimes (killing cattle, existing near cattle, killing humans, eating too many ungulates that they are often not guilty of), and the punishment is to be lawfully killed. For humans we are argue that execution is improper as there is always the chance the party is innocent, capital punishment has been disabused in a racially biased way. Wolves are never presumed innocent, their management is baised. Execution….I think is a good term here.

Sb,
unless we have some undeclared draft, you CHOSE to go in the service. You signed your name and agreed to get paid to go too. Yes, I am aware of your suffering, but it was a result of choice…thanks for your service, BTW. Others do not have that choice, they are ‘hunted’ for just being themselves. Not the same.

++One other thing I will add, I witnessed a killing in the Lamar Valley many years ago, the druid pack had cornered a badger and the badger curled into itself to try and survive.

I have also witnessed wolves killing other wolves, and every single time, the victim curled into itself, the response of curling into itself to try and protect oneself is not unique, it is pretty universal among all species. I did it when I was shot in Iraq, I just wanted to be the smallest ball I could be to protect myself.++

Same thing happen to me when I almost lost an arm, and my life.

But your experience, and mine does not wipe away what happened in that wolf video. you have a habit of responding to a point by going off on a tangent rather than addressing the topic.

Trapping an animal like that, and ending its life in such a fashion is tragic, and unethical. If you or I were starving, or couldn’t make it through the winter and needed the meat and fur…that’s one thing.

That wolves kill other animals and themselves in brutal fashion does not wipe away the unethical behavior of humans. I’ve seen wolves rip apart an elk calf. So what? how does that justify unethical human behavior.

You are indeed a master deflector, SB. You are always there, within seconds, to offer a comparison that in your mind “equals out” poor human behavior.

++And you are wrong, there are far more than 1500 wolves in the RM, remember the rockies go farther than just the border between Canada and the US, you guys say think globally, then you stop your thinking at the border. wolves don’t recognize borders, such as we have seen outside of Yellowstone this year, but also need to understand that we we talk about how many wolves there are.++

this, more than any other comment you’ve made shows your feelings towards wolves, SB. A lot of anti-wolfers (and those opposed to predators) tend to use the “they’re not endangered in the world” angle (especially for wolverines, lynx, and grizzly bear).

Obviously the linkage corridors are broken if wolves had to be reintroduced into Yellowstone.

The linkage corridors were not broken, there have been instances where the naturally migrating wolves from Canada have interacted with the reintroduced wolves in Yellowstone, even the courts didn’t buy that argument.

Mike I think in terms of Ecosystems, not states or countries, I am a strong proponent of the Y2Y initiative. and have worked tirelessly to have it come true..

As we well know, wolves travel great distances, take the Oregon wolf that is now in California, quite a trek in a state that is far more populated than Montana.

The linkage corridors were not broken, there have been instances where the naturally migrating wolves from Canada have interacted with the reintroduced wolves in Yellowstone, even the courts didn’t buy that argument.

Mike I think in terms of Ecosystems, not states or countries, I am a strong proponent of the Y2Y initiative. and have worked tirelessly to have it come true..

As we well know, wolves travel great distances, take the Oregon wolf that is now in California, quite a trek in a state that is far more populated than Montana.++

The linkage corridor was broken, SB. That’s why wolves needed to be reintroduced into Yellowstone. If the corridor is working, the wolves get there on their own.

All species have the support of their families, many in ways we will never understand. As far as my injuries, I had family at home, but I had no one, when the moment was happening. As with most species, when the specter came calling I only had myself.

Savebears I made that conclusion a long time ago when the bear attacks was being discussed. It seem some put more value on animals than human life no matter the situation. It made me think today as I was sitting in the mall watching people walking by. You could almost tell the ones who were in touch with the outdoors and the ones who had no clue.

wrong conclusion about me Savebears- my gripe is that humans have much better laws to protect them, then do wildlife. Your feeling sorry for me is overly dramatic and unnecessary. Its also meant to be disparaging as many of your comments eventually are when they are directed to me. Having empathy and passion for wildlife does not preclude having those same feelings for humans. The argument that you are Robert R make is tired. If you express a level of concern about animals then you “put more value on animals no matter the situation”….

Louise
Your concerned about 7 million people and the effect of those humans on animals but you still brought more humans into the world. You have more than one home you jet around the world that’s putting your value on the animals first.

I don’t feel sorry for you, I said, you make me sad, but believe you, you are not the first one. There are many in the world like you.

Now you and I can continue our pissing match, or you could do yourself a favor and ignore me, but as I said, with the events of the last few days, I would think you could tone down your rhetoric is a bit.

It was a very sad day, the day you found this blog, we were actually having productive conversations then you came along and ratcheted up the rhetoric again.

All of the arguments you post, has been discussed in depth here before.

As I said, you need to set your own blog up, then you can control the tone of the conversation, I know you know how, you used to have one, perhaps those the believe as you, would migrate to a more “Friendly” environment.

Hunters are welcome here and have been from the start. Non-hunters are equally welcome.

The difficult thing is to try to keep people with different opinions discussing things without too much name calling.

Everyone week we reject new people who want to comment for the first time because they are obviously extremists on one side or another.

Most discussion forums just give up and side with one point of view. We don’t want to do that though we do have a third point of view — we don’t much like public land grazing, and we think that is the biggest issue. Hunters and non-hunters who care about wildlife but overlook grazing are far too numerous. That’s a big problem we would like to help solve.

First I am sure all of us, no matter which side of the coin we fall on, appreciate your openness in allowing both sides to continue to post on this blog.

You have hit on one of the largest issues we face in the west, the public lands grazing issue, as a person that has spent the majority of my time focusing on Bison, it is a relevant as well as dangerous to all wildlife, including wolves. It is sad, that it is very overlooked in these discussions.

If we can be successful in changing the way public lands, especially the grazing aspect is managed, a lot of these other issues would fall into line and be much easier to solve.

In regard to hunting, I do not currently hunt. A friend hunts my bit of land, I help him at times with butchering and for my permission and efforts I get a bit of venison and a deal on plowing and a few other benefits.

I have never been opposed to ethical hunting for the pursuit of food. My record on this blog site speaks for my position on trapping, and am all but universally opposed to it. You on the other hand are openly antagonistic to all hunting, and feel quite free to hurl insults at your every whim, and then your feelings get hurt when someone corrects you in a strong fashion.

Wolves. Now you say I’m not one of the pro-Wolfers. Most, if not all of my posts are in regard to wolves. I’m not opposed to wolf management, but i don’t believe any state is using sound management technique. You can’t manage wolves like deer.

Mike, I have worked with The International Wolf Center to develop my own wolf curriculum for my students, and developed an independant study program on wolves for an accelerated student. I have made wolf presentations to grade school students. I have assisted in the development of the International Wolf Centers “Gray Wolf, Gray Matter” curriculum, and have been published in the International Wolf Center Magazine.

What in the name of the gods have you done other than camp, and make a nebulous claim to some unknown fame, other than bitch. I’m sure that you have caused a bit of coffee to be sprayed over computer screens elsewhere among my anti-wolf friends who spend time perusing here by not including me in the “pro-wolf” camp.

If you are going to make blanket comments about me, or any other person who contributes to this blog site, perhaps it would be better to know what the hell you are talking about.

I suspect that $3 has almost no real knowledge of any relevant subject matter discussed on this blog.
A hater of hunters is the only claim to fame and I suspect the only reason this blog is …..still….subjected to the constant propaganda is that a check is periodically cut to buy a place at the table, of which I am sure there are constant reminders to that fact.

Here we go again, Immer. Another dick-waving contest. You seem to be susceptible to these.

When is the last time you were even west of the Mississippi? This site mostly discusses NRM wolves.

I spend considerable time camped in the frozen wilds of the NRM when almost all the locals are sitting around toasty fireplaces and shopping at Wal-Mart.

I have devoted my life through business pursuits and artistic pursuits to public lands and wildlife. One of my projects promoting public land sees 25,000 visitors in a good day.

I’ve always been a fan of these things, but it was Ralph Maughan’s postings on Usenet in 1990’s that made me see I was going about it all wrong…I was that misinformed sportsman who thought the outdoors were all about Cabelas and shooting stuff and the pedantic songs of Ted Nugent.

I’d always loved the outdoors up to that point, but more in a way of what they could do for me. It was quite the introverted outlook (many of my hunter friends are still this way).

Thankfully, I was able to approach Usenet with an open mind and take Ralph’s postings into my studies, and come out the other end much more informed and open minded.

Wild animals and wildlands are my life, always have been. I have photos this fall/winter of a grizzly and cub twenty feet from me in a national forest. I have encountered wolves trotting outside my tent at 2 a.m. in pure sleet. I have spent up to fifty+ days camped in some of the remotest places in the Rockies, taking notes on flora, fauna, and landscape. This information I absorb for several different projects.

I have many friends across the west, from photogs to hunters, to hippies, to suburban ma’s and pas, to born agains, to atheists, to mormons, to agnostics.

I do not sit with one group.

But let me tell you, when a group of people get so angry, so emotional that they think it’s okay to torture an intelligent mammal, that’s where I draw the line.

That’s the real deal, Immer. Create your splinter group, my friend. Before the slobs take you down with them. Let the compassionate and ethical hunters speak up against this behavior. Let their voices finally be heard.

Trust me, many of us conservationists have been waiting for that moment for a very long time….

Every time you post it sure sounds that way, and in your generalizations about individuals who post here are the same type of fabrications and assumptions used by the “other” side. You are no better than them.

Mike, it’s the Wildlife News, and yes it features the Rocky Mountain area, but is the Wildlife News. So back to appendage waving. I have backpacked in Denali, Yellowstone, the Tetons, the Flat Tops in Colorado in the past. I have enough in my own backyard now to keep me occupied with wildlife pursuits the remainder of my life.

So, the next time you care to make generalizations, well heck why not now, you’re so fascinated with dicks, go screw yourself. No hyperbole or anger here. Spoken matter of factly.

Perhaps the best thing to do here is simply ignore Mike’s comments, just pretend he doesn’t exist. There are plenty of others who will interact with him. Because at the end of the day, his deliberate tactics of pissing people off really don’t matter much, he doesn’t matter much if you think about it. He’s just some faceless entity in cyber space. Heh heh aren’t we all though?

Looks like even an exceptionally tolerant Immer has turned on you, for good reason.

Your problem is that you still haven’t figured out there is a growing dogpile, and you are at the bottom of it because of your often irrational and repetitive rants. And, that the sad part is you aren’t bright enough to figure it out.

I have never been satisfied with being pals with just one kind of group. I did not conform to the bird hunting group where you have to own a certain kind of dog, drive a certain truck, dress a certain way. Nor did I with the fly fishing groups, or the hippie groups, or the animal rights groups, nor the environmental groups. I am friends with all kinds. However, all of these groups have their extreme attributes in some way or another.

But, and this is a big one….the difference between anti-wolfers is they are taking out their extreme views in a way that causes pain for other, intelligent life. That is where I draw the line. This needs to be immediately and harshly admonished.

I think perhaps you are a bit startled at my observations a few posts above. Even if you disagree with me at heart, you know a few of those things are correct (the myopic outlook of many outdoorsmen). There’s no doubt these observations have hit a few nerves here, thus the overreaction by some hunters such as yourself and Harley. You’d rather not have the flashlight beam on that certain figure…for denial is respite and comfort.

But rather than be startled or offended at my conservation/hunting points that ring true, you are better off embracing them. Sometimes, the things we react to the most negatively at first is because we know them to be true, but have a hard time coming to terms with the revelation when applied to our own experiences.

I’m not surprised to see another post from you short on substance, but long on personal attacks. That is your way. But I will say your remarks are unfounded.

Immer said Wolves. Now you say I’m not one of the pro-Wolfers. Most, if not all of my posts are in regard to wolves. I’m not opposed to wolf management, but i don’t believe any state is using sound management technique. You can’t manage wolves like deer.

Immer if this is the case what is your plan to manage any wolf population.

I don’t have the crystal ball. If funding allows study of results, in particular in MN and WI, it will be interesting to see what happens this Spring. Does pack structure dictate the habits of wolves. Many have claimed that killing the breeders, the alphas, may lead to destabilized packs and more depredations. I have seen no empirical evidence to support this claim. That said, I don’t think anyone would dispute wolves are very social and learn what prey species are, and well, what prey species aren’t.

MN and WI rushed (almost emergency slanted)to hunt in regard to depredation and perceived threat to people due to habituation. Reducing wolf numbers over the entire state of MN won’t solve this, and perhaps might increase the negative behavior.

Off the top of my head I can’t remember the biologist who wrote Wolves of the Yukon, and he said just reducing wolf numbers for a while won’t solve long term population declines in moose and caribou.

The human population, in particular, won’t allow that sort of measure in MN. Besides, weather is the single biggest factor in the MN deer population, not wolves. The moose decline is most impacted by weather. I’m not saying wolves don’t factor in to the moose problem. (a whole different issue upon which I have thoughts)

So to return to your question, what would I do?
In MN at least 267 wolves this year have been removed by federal and state trappers in response to livestock depredation ( a program that has been going on for years) and is generally well received by folks on either side of the issue. 16 wolves have been removed by people who were either protecting pets or livestock, and few if any take issue with this.

All right, here comes my hypothesis, continue with what has been consensually agreed upon. Concentrate hunting and trapping activities where depredations are highest, not where depredation does not occurr. Here comes my kicker. Concentrate on pack removal, not individual wolves. Do wolves learn or not? If an entire pack is removed, it will take time for dispersers to occupy the vacated territories. Repeat the following years. This pertains to areas of high depredation.

In areas of low depredation, use the methods that have worked in the past. Remove the problem wolves. Just reducing numbers won’t do much.

In areas of no depredation, leave them the hell alone, they’re not causing problems, so what is the purpose other than a trophy?

Management, not just population reduction, and not looking upon wolves as a renewable resource. People are becoming united and vocally antagonistic anout this.Let’s see what happens as a result of this years hunt.

Robert, it’s just an idea based upon what I have read, heard, and experienced. I hope that at least begins to answer your question on what I would propose.

Vielen Dank, Immer.
That’s about what I am hoping for in my state (MI), since I think very targeted reduction here and there, without any general hunting of wolves, is enough here, but it’s not what I expect to actually happen. In arguments in MI I’ve tried to just stick to biology and not use any reasons related to anguish of wolves or their cuteness or intelligence (though my admiration of them is very great), and I like that you didn’t go there either. Galvanizing the pro-wolf forces with emotional appeals I leave to others, and I’m not saying such work is politically ineffective. However I’d rather win the argument by another method, one that might change (my ignorant fellow) hunter’s minds and not make the debates so polarized – or at least drive the wedge in a different place than some others would. Driving wedges inside the hunting community is ofcourse blasphemy (they say), but I’ve always blasphemed a good deal.

Immer you are the only one here out of all the professionals to even propose some sort of management plan.

Being a hunter and a (trapper) of years gone by I don’t and never have wanted the wolf totally eliminated only managed to control the population in today’s ever increasing human population it’s difficult at best.
Now if most pro wolf people are against killing wolves maybe,problem packs should be trapped and relocated.
I don’t have the answer either but a compromise has to be made between hunters and pro woofers.

This is the problem here! Instead of discussing a solution to managing wolves it always becomes one sided and the blame game continues.

Is relocating problem packs really the best idea? Wouldn’t that juts be relocating the problem?

And I don’t know an answer to this problem either though I do like what Immer posted. It makes sense to work on the areas where there is a problem instead of allowing hunting/trapping etc. in areas where there is no problem.

In my minds eye, only place to relocate wolves would be Isle Royale, which is a small short term fix. Wolves that come in on their own, anywhere, will be better received than transplanted wolves. NRM states as good example. Yet, I don’t think dispersers from
Canada had much of a chance due to triple S. and despite the ruminations of Urbigkit…

What I meant to get across, may not have been understood. Unfortunately, what I meant by pack “removal” is NOT transferring them someplace else. They become part of the harvest population, yet I struggle mightily with the concept of doing so!

On a much lighter note, and yes admitting the guilt of anthropomorphizing, the wolf season ended a full 1.5 months earlier than scheduled in the zone upon in which I live in MN. In celebration of surviving and perhaps a touch of the middle digit, one of the resident wolves in my local deposited a celebratory pile of scat that survived this mornings plowing and ended up on top of a snow bank!

For many years now, the hunting faction of the Anti-Wolf legion has vociferously decried the impact that the Grey Wolf is having on Wyoming’s moose population , laying most of the blame for falling moose numbers at the feet of wolves.

That’s been shown to be a bit of a stretch ,but here’s something that the hunting community might have more difficulty explaining away: a couple from Gillette who POACHED four Moose.

Savebears: of course I know some ‘good’ hunters and am all for them. But the genuine sportsman is becoming a rare specie in northwest Wyoming.

I was a hunting guide. Worked the high country elk camps for 15 years. Even took out big horn sheep hunters. I’ve been there.

Why did I quit going in ? ALL the outfitters I worked with or around were criminals, as were most of their guides. They all cut corners, broke some laws , bent some rules, gamed the system. Especially the newer younger crop of outfitters who spun off on their own after working with the older established guys.

My immediate Park county and the next one over Teton have about 65 licensed elk hunting camps between them, mostly in wilderness or Forest Service multiple use land. Competition is cutthroat among the legitimate operations. Then there the unknown number of renegade and bootleg ” outfitters”. I defy any of you to find more than 2 or 3 ethical law abiding outfitters amid the whole heap. My cousin was one of them . He was Prez of the local Outfitters and Guides Association till he, too, got fed up and resigned.

Then it gets worse. I can find no distinct line between numbers of sportsmen and numbers of poachers. Big grey zone. A good percentage of the hunting public in my neck of the woods digress into ” Long Season” hunts and all manner of shady activity. Wolf Smoking is the local term. Antler Scabbing. Ivory gathering. And plain old country poaching. I’d say half of them.

Sorry, savebears. I really truely wish that ethical hunters did in fact police their own. Except where I live that is becoming more rare. We have a lot of poachers where I live. Just depends on the time of year and what’s in season…the ” Long Season”.

Cody
What baffles me is you seem to know of all these illegal activities yet no comments saying who you’ve busted. Jerry Black is always telling us about all the illegal things going on in his area, but no comments about calling the law.
What’s the saying about good men doing nothing.

I know for a fact Jerry does call, so do I, so do others.. not much is done
Cody thanks for an honest post. These transgressions are what I object to with hunting….and most of my objections are reserved for trophy hunting, trapping, snaring, and arrows methods that cause extreme suffering. I think a lot of others feel the same way.

I quit hunting and quit guiding and hanging with the hunting crowd in 1991. I would turn in every poacher I knew but somebody beat me to a lot of them. I was involved in a high profile case of a trophy Bighorn ram. I do report killsites when they are ” irregular” .

But here’s the raw intel: I dtaed a woman who opwned the most popular canvas and leather repair shop in Cody . She and her partners spent all year fixing stuff for outfitters guides and hunters and building them scabbards and chaps and scope cases etc. As such , her shop right downtown but in the alley was a very convenient clearinghouse for the ” Mountain Trash” to gather and swap tales and scuttlebutt. (“Mountain Trash” was their own name for mountain cowboys, dude wranglers, guides, outfitters, not mine.) It was like an unchartered social club. That same woman was also a very popular barmaid at local saloons frequented by the hunting and outfitting crowd. So— we heard a LOT of stories…a lot of admissions…a lot of accusations…a lot of boasts and braggadoccio and a lot of ” he did what ? ” stories. pretty much all secondhand but with veracity. I was pretty good at determining who among them was a liar, a tall tale teller, or was telling the truth , for I too had been a bartender in a cowboy/oil boom bar. Hearsay and $ 2.00 will buy you a cup of coffee and a muffin, and that’s about it.

What most of you don;t realize when it comes to prosecuting poachers, you pretty much have to catch them in the act or before the carcass goes cold. That ain’t easy.

I also find it difficult to deal with my roesent day Wyoming Game & Fish Department personnel becuase of the damamge they have done to wildlife with their economically driven hunting programs that have unbalanced the ehrds. And of course their stance on wolves and grizzlies. I am not nearly as eager these days to turn in a poacher or report violations as I once was. I have lost faith in my Wyoming G&F , about ten years after I lost my belief in honest outfitters. Now what I am experiencing is a loss of credence in true sportsmanship.

No more hunting for me, coming or going. They’ve ruined it, by and large. I do feel sorry for the remaining good hunters and sportsmen out there, that they have been dragged thru the mud by the worthless louts who abuse their hunting privileges and treat wildlife like personal property , disgustingly so.

“What most of you don;t realize when it comes to prosecuting poachers, you pretty much have to catch them in the act or before the carcass goes cold.”

In my experience, that’s not true at all. Our conservation wardens are incredibly skilled at obtaining convictions starting with nothing more than hearsay and circumstantial evidence.

Once they get on the track of a suspected poacher they are extremely tenacious – I’ve witnessed them busting poachers for acts committed several years in the past, by painstakingly establishing a chain of evidence – and by the time they confront the suspect and are able to threaten to confiscate his vehicle and all his hunting weapons, it’s all over but the shouting.

And of course the advent of social media has helped them tremendously – because so many criminals can’t seem to resist sharing their exploits on the Internet.

++Then it gets worse. I can find no distinct line between numbers of sportsmen and numbers of poachers. Big grey zone. A good percentage of the hunting public in my neck of the woods digress into ” Long Season” hunts and all manner of shady activity. Wolf Smoking is the local term. Antler Scabbing. Ivory gathering. And plain old country poaching. I’d say half of them.++

I noticed the same thing. These mythical “awesome hunters” need to create a splinter group, pronto.

There is actually another message below that one that I posted that is awaiting moderation, I do hope the powers that be allow it to become part of the conversation, but it is how I feel about some on what actions hunters actually take on this issue.

Hey, I’ve read what you’ve posted. What Immer’s posted as well as the others that the goofball has mentioned. I’m pretty sure I know where you all stand. One of the reasons I admire you guys and read what you have to write when I can. I actually learn stuff from these kinds of posts, not the other kind. So keep it up! And btw, thank you for your service. I have become a military family, I somewhat understand some of that stuff.
🙂

My daughter’s husband is Army, that’s the other recent development. Both my son in law and my son keep telling me their going to teach me to shoot, as I’ve never shot a gun before and quite frankly, have always been afraid of guns. Matter of fact, I’m not even sure I could shoot something if I needed to, I am definitely NOT the hunting type!

Let’s be honest, shall we? None of the folks you’ve mentioned have ever denied that poaching takes place or that there are unethical hunters. You, however, consistently use divisive language suggesting that ethical hunters are “mythical” and stereotyping all hunters as bloodthirsty poachers. If anyone here is “religious” about their advocacy, it is you. There’s nothing worse than a dishonest advocate.

“The problem that SB, Harley, and WM have here on wildlife News is that they see hunting as a religion.

Their overreaction to reasonable, benign comments….”

You’ve summed yourself up perfectly. And as JB correctly points out, you are divisive, at a time you should be embracing. All who post here have one thing in common, a love of all wildlife. I even venture to guess that even those who post here who don’t care a lot for wolves and other predators, do have an admiration for the said animals and understand they belong.

All you do is drive them away, when you should be embracing them. Let’s work together on this is the attitude required.

I guess the religion analogy, in your application of it, could apply to any pursuit of passion. My wife loves photography. She becomes so absorbed in the moment that she loses track of time, and is sometimes deficient in social skills when trying to get the perfect photo. Example: We were with a group of friends walking past the Tower of London (well known historical landmark in that city) trying to make a scheduled boat on the Themes River to take us to the Royal Naval College in Greenwich (an architectural masterpiece by Christopher Wren). We lost her from the group, and I had to walk back a half mile and search furiously on the far side of the building complex to find her casually taking detail photos of some interesting architectural features. We missed the boat. Happens all the time walking on wilderness trails too – this pursuit of passion, or religion in your words.

Mike, poaching by criminals occurs virtually everywhere there is wildlife that has economic or utilitarian value to someone. Most of it goes undetected. It is done by SOME in the hunting community not MOST.

And, quite honestly, I don’t know what you would have the hunting community do about it. I know most would like to curtail it, because it detracts from the resource base, and it gives hunting a bad reputation. JUST WTF would you have us do? The more you post, the more obvious it becomes you’re an idiot.

WM’s post made me recall a conversation I had recently with a Chinese graduate student here who is looking into conservation issues associated with golden monkeys. His own research shows that poaching is pervasive at both of his study sites–importantly, hunting is completely banned at both of these sites (both are Chinese equivalents of our National Parks).

Making hunting illegal will not dissuade those who are already breaking the law, and it may actually encourage some who are legal hunters–especially if they depend upon hunting as a source of meat protein. Moreover, you would lose the primary source of funding for actually policing wildlife crime (not to mention the primary source of funding for wildlife conservation).

The desire to protect wildlife is admirable, but I think your ideological opposition to hunting has impaired your judgment.

My comments are no more ridiculous than the ones Mike posts all the time, or you for that matter. I could post something about the good of the world and you guys would find a way to turn it around for your agenda.

And really Jon, I didn’t say we were going to shoot anyone, He has accused the majority of hunters of being criminals, which is what poachers are, if that is the case, perhaps we should behave as criminals.

Note that word “Perhaps” Jon, Perhaps, does not constitute a threat of any kind.

Well the people that run this blog seem to have a different view of my comment, you are again trying to stir crap up Jon. As I said, no matter what I say, you are right there to try and make it something to fit your agenda, give it up Jon.

Lion DNA study to begin in Bitterroots. Seems like they are, surprise, the main predator on elk calves. “Everyone was sure that this was going to be a wolf story,” Hebblewhite said. “Like many people, I’ve been surprised to see what we’ve learned so far.”

“If ranchers keep cutting back the size of their herds, pretty soon cowboys will be all hat and very few cattle.

As the Montana Stockgrowers Association convened in Billings last week, the number of cattle raised in the U.S. fell to its lowest level in a half-century. Prices have rarely been as high, and economists are predicting a 20 percent price increase next spring.

Yet hardly anyone is adding animals to the herd. According to CattleFax, the nation’s ranches shed 1.9 million head in the past year.”

++Even as prices farmers received fell to 85 cents a pound, consumers at supermarkets were paying $7 or more a pound for the same meat.++

It should not come as a surpise that extended drought or global warming will result in significant manipulation of commodity prices from livestock to grain and corn. It may very well drive lots of small operators out of business, while the big operators and corporate feedlots and processing plants continue to squeeze and ultimately wind up with all the land bought at low prices. Then what happens to consumer prices for any food products down the road. Want to think conspiracy? Here is an area where your mind can run wild, and your fridge just might be a little more bare and your share of income for food increases substantially.

…and unless the likes of Senator Tester with other Senators looking out for small operators, we might just all do well to buy stock in ag conglomerates like ConAgra.

And, while I don’t like grazing on public lands just as many here do not, if that element of the livestock feeding cycle (or the subsidies under the Taylor Grazing Act for grazing prices) is curtailed significantly in the West, more of these small operators and even some large will go out of business, selling their operations to the really big corporate guys, who will manipulate the markets as we have never seen before, putting it to the consumer. I can see the Koch brothers wringing their hands with big grins on their faces already.

“I don’t know why MEIC and Northern Plains went well back to this well again,” Schweitzer said. “We handle the money. The environmental permits are handled elsewhere. That’s why we have a Department of Environmental Quality that does these things.”

Not really. Seems he’s most concerned about the PR he’ll get on his way out the door He has until the end of the month and he’s gone. Maybe it will poison the water on his ranch so he’ll end up regretting it.

No, I’d say. He doesn’t. It turns out that Keystone XL’s leak monitoring system will not even be state of the art, and so a leak will not be detected automatically until the pipeline has lost 1% of its flow. That is a lot of toxic crap on the ground or into the water.

It could even lose like 3/4 of 1% every day and the automatic detector would not notice; though I suppose they would eventually realize there was a discrepancy between what they sent and what was received.

How the hell do you know that the trapper was not harassing the wolf. Perhaps the wolf did have rabies, perhaps it was defending its territory from the obnoxious snowmobiler, perhaps the trapper had been harassing the wolf. You don’t know and neither do I. Something made the wolf act of character. we don’t even know if the trapper was telling the truth.

I am just taking the least common denominator approach to why a wolf would attack an unusual prey in the middle of winter. The first thing that comes to mind is hunger. The second is that the prey is moving, as if maybe to escape a predator. Third, is wolves being smart, are always “testing” potential prey (thank Dr. Geist for that one from his personal experiences). All in all, a case of mistaken identity, perhaps?

If the story is true- and who really knows for sure- I would think low priority on the list is wolf retaliation for something the trapper did. On the other hand maybe Pa and son were hitting the bottle and the younger just tripped over the snomobile on his way to the outhouse and ripped his coat.

Interesting theory there. I think there was a young hunter in Indiana or Illinois that claimed he was attacked by a mountain lion and then recanted (he fell out of his tree stand and was embarassed to admit it). People are weird….animals too but not so much. Only time will tell.

yes me too Salle on the wolf’s side I only hope a lynch mob doesn’t go after it. I hate those GD traps so much, people out in snowmobiles setting traps and snares what a nightmare. I’m off to bed before I can’t sleep again. Whats wrong with this world we can’t leave a little bit of it to wildlife.

That would be hard Elk. They are banned in parts of the Cape and thank god we don’t see a lot of them but I see them in the Caribbean, and it makes me so angry. They run in areas where there are eelgrass beds, corals and juvenile fish breeding areas. I’ve even seen them in manatee areas where the manatees have big scars on their backs from propellors and the water craft.

Thank goodness – I hope they decide in favor of these beautiful animals and keep the stupid snowmobiles and logging out. It is a sacrilege to lose an animal forever for something as mundane as recreational snowmobiling.

hate too say it but the latest is to remove them from the ESA. It has been all over the news for a couple days. the “point”is that the small US herd is insignificant and not worth saving. The winds of change you might say. The “significant portion of the historical range” is no longer significant.

This shows the Endangered Species Act is rapidly disappearing because the woodland, a.k.a. mountain caribou is the rarest species of large mammal in the lower 48 states (not counting some sub-species).

This animal is not recovering at all, and the fact that there are some in Canada in no comfort because Canada’s mountain caribou are rapidly evaporating.

what is really sad is that the ungulate worshippers have not the slightest clue that this is a species that thrived in the what is now the lower 48 on an arc from the west of the great lakes thru about the southern boundary of Colorado and then up the east side of the Cascades into what is now Canada.(Having said that I always wondered why there is not more mention of them in early journals such as L&C) How much more wild life viewing and hunting opportunities could be had if the ESA had been fully applied to them over the last 40 yr?

now it appears my comment is in moderation for saying “*&$k me runnin”,
while any number of sycophants that are allowed to post, continuously use terms such as “weenie waving, et al.” which I find not only juvenile and repugnant” but also demeaning and sexist.

The fate of the woodland caribou in WA will be an interesting tap dance for FWS. If there ever is a need for the ESA, this has to be a poster child moment. Just watch the justification argument (either way), especially the habitat part linked with global warming. Same thing will happen to wolverine. And in the meanwhile all the money, energy, vitriol and PR goes to …..the wolf. Downright disgusting.

I had occasion to meet with a prominent ecologist who study’s predator-prey relationships among carnivores and ungulates. His frank assessment: “caribou are screwed”. He cited climate change as the major, long-term problem.

I think that over the next 25 years we will likely see the reversal of some of our long-term successes with wildlife conservation. Depressing to contemplate.

That Pacific Legal Foundation is bad news. They are doing the same thing with manatees in Florida, if you can imagine that. And I was quick to discount them, but they were the ones who were instumental in getting the bald eagle delisted, I believe, so that someone could build a house or some such thing.

“Uncle Ted,” as he likes to refer to himself, is about as close to the devil in human form as one could imagine. You can’t make up the stuff this guy does. What a disgusting, depraved personality….with self-centered commercial star power that appeals to some segments of society. Looks like his commercial glow to the even more disgusting cable channels is dimming, none too soon.

while I have a very special consideration for wolves, having intensely studied them for ~40yr, most of that hands on, and at the same time intimately concerned with other fauna such as elk, deer, moose, various fish and assorted other food sources, as a hunter and fisherman;
here is some shit we really need to be concerned with, instead of if that animal or this animal died.

Be careful – this kind of news will be enough to start a killing or poisoning campaign against them. They already got an exemption for putting up wind turbines. Those rapacious wolves and golden eagles could steal livestock and children!

It’s always amazing that people just happen to have a video camera nearby – why didn’t the person grab the child out of harm’s way instead of video’ing it?

You probably didn’t watch the video before you commented that. The filmer was just admiring the eagle flying over the park, filming it just like you or I would. the eagle circled then dived down to pick the child up, the picked up the kid and got about 6 feet up before the father who had his back turned and the filmer ran over shouting, scared the eagle into dropping the kid.

No, I saw it. It’s just so far-fetched, I don’t know if there was ever a case on record of a raptor stealing a child. It’s the stuff of fractured fairy tales, like the ones about wolves. Birds, unless tame, are not known for flying into crowds of people.

I don’t think it is all that common, especially in our modern age and in a city. I am always skeptical of things like this when it comes to wildlife “reports” I’m willing to bet there was a little sleight of hand going on, perhaps with a doll or a backpack. The vid is too blurry and it does look like the toddler is trying to run.

So TPM, a news outlet, has a story claiming it to be a fraud but I watched it a few times and the points that the claim argue as tell-tale signs of fakery don’t work out and the article doesn’t really back the claim.

That being said, I have seen eagles grab and make off with some unbelievable things and this is just unusual for me because it was in a city. the child wasn’t that big and I can’t see where the vid may have been faked.

Golden eagles are indeed formidable predators, but this video is a hoax. At first glance the scene is not golden eagle habitat and a wild raptor is extremly unlikely to fly that closely overhead people let alone swoop down that close. When viewing it a second time I noticed that when the eagle is flying away with the child its wing flaps are not consistent with a bird trying to gain height or trying to carry something heavier than its usual jackrabbit prey. It continues to flap its wings as if it’s flying horizontal. The wings of a bird trying to gain height or carry a heavy prey item would have more of a downward stroke. After viewing it a third time I’m doubtful it’s even a golden eagle.

NY Times article on the apparent “momentum” for sweeping legislative change on gun control (state and federal) – much broader than previous attempts, and possible concessions by the NRA (or is it just temporary PR spin for them out of the gates?).

Whatever comes out of this I hope it is better than the stupid assault rifle/high capacity clip limitations in the Charlie Schumer (D-NY) and Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), stuff from 1994. All that did was result in selling more bad things to the wackos who bought everything up before bans went into effect (the weapons manufacturers and retailers loved it because they could charge more). And, get this, police departments which cycle out their used high capacity hand gun clips were able to get rid of alot of their used items on Ebay for top dollar. I suspect some of the same is going on right now, in anticipation of needed changes.

I think there is no easy fix for this, and it will be interesting, and maybe even disappointing, to see how it all plays out, once we get past the hysteria and emotion of the moment. The Constitutional lawyers and their clients are no doubty already girding themselves for legal battles to come.

“McAllister said the Peace Rod and Gun Club of Fort St. John and others announced the contest with prizes that include $1,000 for the largest wolf killed and $150 for the smallest, with a maximum of three dead wolves per contestant.”

I do think there is something very wrong with hunters who participate in contests like these where you win prizes for killing the biggest and smallest animals. These people are not conservationists in any way, shape, or form.

Some people think this is acceptable, but a normal person would say that participating in a contest where you win prizes for killing the biggest and smallest animals is sick and disturbing. This contest is a bad pr move for hunters.

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‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."