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Topic Review (Newest First)

07-08-2014 04:45 PM

hev1128

Little update- I misread my vet paperwork. she was given 1.5 ml of dreaded drug.

she is feeling much better. Diagnosis from our rehab vet was a pulled groin muscle which combined with hitting her arthritic knees caused the pain. took a couple steps back in the rehab process but today she was galloping around the house (according to my husband)

So glad this is over!

07-08-2014 03:15 PM

Colie CVT

I tend to see sensitivity slightly different from an overdose. As you said, everyone reacts differently, and the age of the pet, any medications they were on and such can make an effect. But in general, because it doesn't bind all the receptors with an activating agent, once the receptors are bound, they are bound, and it doesn't like to let go as readily as some other ones. It's why you can use it to help with withdrawal from other opioids and to help with lessening the effects from a stronger opioid. Cats is my best example. They tend to really have trouble with full mu opioids. It causes a really bad level of dysphoria and at times, aggression. Buprenorphine is the preferred medication because it isn't as strong as the others due to it's binding and the cats are much happier with half the receptors going.

I'm glad she feels better and those other medications are working. You may want them to go easy on full mu opioids with her too in the future. So be cautious with morphine, hydromorphone, fentanyl. If they use or can use methadone it may be the better way to go! Much less dysphoria seen with that one and it's really nice for pain control.

To simplify it, Buprenorphine is supposed to work to stop opioid addiction by beating them to the punch sort to speak. It has a stronger binding ability. Buprenorphine pushes out exsisting opioids and takes up the receptors, replacing them. All opioids (full and partial) have pain reducing properties. Buprenorphine binds to receptors and produces endorphins (natural painkillers) just like any opioid would but at a lower/slower rate. The sudden drop in the amount of endorphins produced is what causes withdrawal symptoms at first, but then the body adjusts to the levels as Buprenorphine replaces the original opioid. Both full and "partial opioids" get endorphins and dopamine flowing. The bodies own natural levels become obsolete. In essence, trading the addiction of an intense opioid to another less intense "palatable" one. There are still withdrawal/dependency issues with Buprenorphine use just as any full opioid. It has some pretty nasty side effects as well as some unknown/not fully understood effects on the nervous system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hev1128

Collie- she's on several other meds. Gabapentin, meloxicam and adaquan.
Vet indicated this was the better choice. Never again!

She is finally eating and drinking!!! Yay!

That's great that she's eating and drinking. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colie CVT

You can't overdose with Buprenorphine.

Although Buprenorphine is said to have a "ceiling cap" for most dogs/people with lower tolerances for opioids it is possible to overdose with or without the combination of other substances.

07-06-2014 09:42 PM

hev1128

Collie- she's on several other meds. Gabapentin, meloxicam and adaquan.
Vet indicated this was the better choice. Never again!

She is finally eating and drinking!!! Yay!

07-06-2014 09:28 PM

Colie CVT

You can't overdose with Buprenorphine. It is an agonist-antagonist partial mu opioid. So what it does is bind all the receptors, but some of them are bound with what amounts to just a blocker. It isn't activating the sites, so it generally only activates half of the mu receptors in the body. This limits the amount of it that can be active at a time. It can even be used to partially reverse full mu opioids (morphine for example). So it is in many ways a safer one of them to use, however some times pets will be more sensitive to it than otherwise.

It is interesting to me that they chose that one, since it is generally more expensive for larger dogs, but the symptoms that you mention definitely can happen with opioids. It causes a certain amount of dysphoria. Some dogs are more sensitive than others. Age also plays in a factor. I have noticed that older patients seem to have more dysphoria than the younger ones. It should last around 8-12 hours before it will start fading out of the system. Didn't read all of what was written, but I figured I would at least add that in about the burprenorphine.

07-06-2014 06:03 PM

gsdsar

Quote:

Originally Posted by lalachka

So for pain they just use the agonist abilities and ignore the fact that it can also block some? Just are careful what can be prescribed along with it?
That makes sense though I read your sentence above 4 times and still didn't get it)))))))

LOL! Yes. The Opoids and their receptors are confusing!!! But yes in a nutshell. But that's why we pay Vets money, someone has to understand this muck.

I will note that while used a lot, buprenorphine is not a very strong pain killer nor does it have a long duration of efficacy.

OP- glad your pup ate some for you!!! I hope that it's all up hill from here!!!!

Ginger finally ate a bit! Half a hot dog with her regular meds mixed in.
And a couple treats! Not interested in her food or water yet though.

07-06-2014 05:52 PM

lalachka

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsdsar

So it can be used to block drugs that are agonists to the receptors it's an antagonist to

So for pain they just use the agonist abilities and ignore the fact that it can also block some? Just are careful what can be prescribed along with it?
That makes sense though I read your sentence above 4 times and still didn't get it)))))))

07-06-2014 05:47 PM

gsdsar

It's a partial antagonist to certain receptors and a full agonist to others. That's why it can be used as a pain med and a heroin treatment.

I would have to pull out my pharmacology book, but I THINK it's a fill mu agonist and then a partial antagonist to 2 other receptors. So it can be used to block drugs that are agonists to the receptors it's an antagonist to. Clear as mud? LOL pharmacology was not my best subject.

So in other words, if a drug is an agonist for the opioid receptor Delta, then a Delta antagonist is used to counter act it. Some drugs are full and partial agonists and full and partial antagonists. So it may work with one opioid receptor and block another one, all at the same time.

This is a little off topic but what confuses me about using buprenorphine for pain is the antagonist part of it. Methadone is used for pain all the time but it doesn't have the blocking property. I guess I'm wondering why the blocking property would be useful do anyone but a opioid addict.

I tried googling and didn't find the answer but it's being widely used so I'm sure there's a reason. Maybe they use it because of other properties and just ignore the blocking property.

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