Massive Chalice - News Roundup

Now that we've cleared our goal by a significant amount we’re super pumped to announce that in addition to English, we’ll be able to translate MASSIVE CHALICE to French, Italian, German and Spanish (EFIGS)! We want to make sure that MASSIVE CHALICE can be played by as many people as possible and supporting EFIGS is a great step in that direction!
PayPal Support

We've been listening to those of you who want to support MASSIVE CHALICE but can't do it through Kickstarter for a variety of reasons. We hear you! Our web team has been working hard to support PayPal payments for new potential backers. Head on over to http://www.massivechalice.com/back to make a pledge through PayPal! We appreciate the support!

In Double Fine’s Massive Chalice, heroes follow one of (videogame) life’s most well-worn paths: fight demons, fight demons, fight demons. But these heroes age, and their blood slowly ceases its boiling. They grow old and begin to seek out someone else to warm their weary bones. Also, to birth and raise the most powerful combat babies in all the realm because, you know, demons. Still, it’s a rather traditionally minded system at heart, so I had to ask: where do gay couples enter the picture, if at all? Massive Chalice lead Brad Muir was honest: that issue totally slipped his mind… at first. But then Kickstarter backers swooped in to save the day. Hurrah! It is, however, an ending that Muir doesn’t think would’ve been quite so happy had a traditional publisher been in the mix.

Why these "hot button" issues must be crammed into games without any proper context…the creators state gay stuff really had no place in their vision, yet now they are cramming it in to appease the vocal minority. Blah…it's like certain people see games as tools to change society…political activism games…DO NOT WANT.

And what about celibate people? I DEMAND they offer me celibacy as an option! It isn't fair to not include this…whine whine whine. And animals, I need options for animal love because some people are into that. All people must be appeased! By not pandering to me you are oppressing me! /sarcasm

On a positive note, both XCOM and FFT are brilliant games, along with the most brilliant of all: Tactics Ogre for the PSP. Note, these games were all brilliant WITHOUT gay or straight marriage! They just focused on awesome gameplay! Hard to believe, I know!

@Brumbek Fully agree with your sentiments. I'd though bloodlines sounded like a rather good idea (for graduating the impact of permadeath in games like XCom) when the Kickstarter launched. But it they are going to get mired in totally unnecessary sexual politics then perhaps it wasn't such a good idea after all.

I go back and forth. If it's a game about genetic lineage, then the sexual politics ought to be kept out of the game. If the game's background *is* about non-genetic lineage (foster relationships have similar influences), then it would make sense that this gets brought up. It also makes sense given that Double Fine is in the middle of a city with very progressive politics.

Can you un-pledge? Not like I care about the gay couples thing, but the fact that they've spent more time talking about this than posting even a fake mockup screenshot of how gameplay will be, gives me a bad feeling.

Originally Posted by wolfing
Can you un-pledge? Not like I care about the gay couples thing, but the fact that they've spent more time talking about this than posting even a fake mockup screenshot of how gameplay will be, gives me a bad feeling.

I agree. I was mildly interested at first, but these updates are just… empty.
Glad I held off on backing this…

Originally Posted by wolfing
Can you un-pledge? Not like I care about the gay couples thing, but the fact that they've spent more time talking about this than posting even a fake mockup screenshot of how gameplay will be, gives me a bad feeling.

Yes of course you can. I think you go to manage your pledge and then its an option somewhere at thebottom , iirc.
The only time you can't is if removing your pledge woul "unfund" an already funded project.

Originally Posted by Bedwyr
I go back and forth. If it's a game about genetic lineage, then the sexual politics ought to be kept out of the game. If the game's background *is* about non-genetic lineage (foster relationships have similar influences), then it would make sense that this gets brought up. It also makes sense given that Double Fine is in the middle of a city with very progressive politics.

Since it is a fantasy game I don't care much. One cell per parent could be the result of any kind of mix. To be honest I would find it awesome if non-human creatures were a part of this mixing as well making lots of genetic experimentation possible. Don't think it's that kind of game though… :-)

Originally Posted by joxer
I'm not against adding any kind of marriage in the game, but my problem with this project is that your hero ages and… eventually dies.
Now that's not something I'd wanna play.

Since it's 17 more days, I'll still hold, as if your hero dies, that means only one thing. No predefined story and if story at all, then it's sandbox - and I don't want (to buy) that.

Besides, I've said in the first news, DoubleFine should cut the crap and make BrutalLegend2 already. With or without gay marriages, who cares.

They have already been clear about what kind of game it will be in that respect - it will have a progression story in the way that XCOM Enemy Unknown does - it won't be an adventure RPG starring your avatar, like say Dragensang. It probably wouldn't be possible to make Brutal Legend 2 on the kind of budget that you can reasonably get on Kickstarter. Certainly the first game ran well into the tens of millions to make.

It's not the gay marriage thing that's a problem per se, it's the fact that the game was intended to be about blood lines and so they would have to come up with some artificial measure whereby gay couples adopt children, which nevertheless have the genetic traits of the gay parents - it's just a wholly unnecessary contortion in order to pander to the political correctness of the day and IMOP that doesn't belong in a fantasy computer game. It's lucky that the LOTR films were made a few years ago or, no doubt, they would have adapted it so that Aragorn ended up married to a gay elf.

Originally Posted by joxer
I'm not against adding any kind of marriage in the game, but my problem with this project is that your hero ages and… eventually dies.
Now that's not something I'd wanna play.

In the video they said YOU play an immortal king; it's the generals and heroes that follow you who grow old and die. Kind of like how in xcom you are the commander, but your soldiers can die permanently and be replaced. Unlike that they can at least be replaced by their progeny. At least that was how it seemed to be explained in the pitch video.

Originally Posted by joxer
I'm not against adding any kind of marriage in the game, but my problem with this project is that your hero ages and… eventually dies.
Now that's not something I'd wanna play.

Since it's 17 more days, I'll still hold, as if your hero dies, that means only one thing. No predefined story and if story at all, then it's sandbox - and I don't want (to buy) that.

Besides, I've said in the first news, DoubleFine should cut the crap and make BrutalLegend2 already. With or without gay marriages, who cares.

Oh I don't have a problem with that, in fact, it's what I like about it. Open your mind a bit, it's not "your hero". The "PC" here is a dynasty, just like in Crusader Kings 2, you're not playing a king or even a kingdom, you're playing a dynasty.

Originally Posted by wolfing
Oh I don't have a problem with that, in fact, it's what I like about it. Open your mind a bit, it's not "your hero". The "PC" here is a dynasty, just like in Crusader Kings 2, you're not playing a king or even a kingdom, you're playing a dynasty.

Yeah that's the most appealing part about this for me as well. It's something that isn't done all that often, and it in no ways prevents telling a story. In many ways the story of a dynasty can be much more epic then the story of an individual person.

I could care less either way about the gay marriage things, I think people are blowing that one out of proportion based on a single article. It's just a small thing they added to the game because their backers were interested in it. The only reason it became news is because Rock Paper Shotgun chose to write an article about in order to illustrate how things can be done differently in a kickstarter project.

In terms of it making sense, I don't see how their has to be any genetic component. Stories are full of children being adopted by a great hero or wizard and growing up to become one themselves.

This is maybe my favorite niche subgenre (yes the Red SocialKnight in my avatar is from an early Fire Emblem), and the game sounds awesome.

I have to admit the gay marriage thing sounds confusing to me too, especially if the idea is that continuity of character-building across hundreds of years is taken care of by family inheritance.

And it seems unnecessary - Game of Thrones has gay content while acknowledging the centrality of political marriage and royal breeding to the structure of a feudal society. Why not have this game do the same?

Originally Posted by Roq
It's not the gay marriage thing that's a problem per se, it's the fact that the game was intended to be about blood lines and so they would have to come up with some artificial measure whereby gay couples adopt children, which nevertheless have the genetic traits of the gay parents - it's just a wholly unnecessary contortion in order to pander to the political correctness of the day and IMOP that doesn't belong in a fantasy computer game.

Exactly. In the end they have to make gay people still be able to pass on their genes, which requires them taking a surrogate mother/father. Then they have to somehow indicate this system in the game. It all gets fairly absurd. Subtle and complex issues in real life rarely translate well to games unless you make the game entirely about those issues.

The BBC has a quite timely article today about gay people who oppose gay marriage. This highlights the fact that there isn’t one “gay voice” out there, despite what we hear in the media most of the time.

Originally Posted by RedSocialKnight
This is maybe my favorite niche subgenre (yes the Red SocialKnight in my avatar is from an early Fire Emblem), and the game sounds awesome.

Just curious, what other games in this subgenre do you enjoy? I'm always looking for other games like this that I might have missed.

Originally Posted by RedSocialKnight
And it seems unnecessary - Game of Thrones has gay content while acknowledging the centrality of political marriage and royal breeding to the structure of a feudal society. Why not have this game do the same?

Yeah, that's a good example. My understanding is the game isn't about lovers but lineage, so if someone is gay that really is entirely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Roq
They have already been clear about what kind of game it will be in that respect - it will have a progression story in the way that XCOM Enemy Unknown does

This may be my biggest concern, the whole story element. XCOM was a brilliant game, but the lack of story seriously harmed its impact IMO.

Now consider MC’s other inspiration: FFT. That game is the total opposite of XCOM story-wise, featuring countless memorable characters and a long and fascinating story. Tactics Ogre for PSP even surpasses FFT IMO, being the absolute pinnacle of SRPG gameplay AND featuring a brilliant personal story AND featuring true choices and consequences. (Sorry, I'm in love with the game.)

I guess I'm just spoiled after FFT and Tactics Ogre. I'd like to see Massive Chalice 6 months from now to decide if I want to support it I suppose.