On 15/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>As one of the first ascentionists of that line, what do you think one>of your climbing partners at the time, Kevin L would think of that addition?>From what I know of him and his routes, I strongly suspect that he would>not approve of it, but I am curious to know if he has mellowed significantly>about such things in latter years.>
I have no idea what Kevin would think but he is still active so shouldn't be hard to find out. If he disapproves it should definitely go.
The main reason in my mind for having a bolt on it was in case someone ripped off the fragile top of the flake and went for a big dive. Well the flake top has already gone. It stuns me that anyone would have put gear at the top of that flake, let alone M9's favourite wire and hook. I've placed some dodgy gear in my time but I never thought that was even an outside chance to hold anything.

On 15/02/2013 kieranl wrote:>It stuns me that anyone would have put gear at the top of that flake, let alone M9's favourite wire and hook. I've placed some dodgy gear in my time but I never thought that was even an outside chance to hold anything.>

Just for the record; the hook was never in a position to skate off, because the 'throw' of it's tang perfectly matched the top of the flake in a central position, and was like a birds foot on a branch while clasped over the lip.
With a medium sling and a weight (excess trad gear), to prevent rope drag pulling upward on it I regarded it as bomber for a downward load, as I have had falls elsewhere caught by similar placements.
It was certainly more secure than most small wires in that location, which depended on multiples (backups), or a matrix to share loading, to likely work effectively.

On 15/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>I did it in the middle of the night (fuch, I'm turning into you or Mikl),>got my time down to 5mins/bolt pulled and patched (didn't have to do a>second lap, I was getting the bolt out before the glue set in the nozzle).>The top couple were cut off and patched badly by the reticent retrobolter>sometime prior to my night mission.........I might go back and fix his>shit work at some stage.>>I also got rid of those ridiculous rings on top of the cliff (you know,>the ones which you said were a joke and should come out)

Wicked - good to hear. But weren't you going to pull all the others on that wall as well? Did the other route to the left stay?

On 15/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>As one of the first ascentionists of that line, what do you think one>of your climbing partners at the time, Kevin L would think of that addition?>From what I know of him and his routes, I strongly suspect that he would>not approve of it, but I am curious to know if he has mellowed significantly>about such things in latter years.

I was under the understanding that Kevin has actually retroed a few of his Buffalo routes in recent years. One that comes to mind is on the slabs right of Maharajah. His new routes below the handgliding ramp seem to be pretty well bolted (and good). He certainly seems to have no qualms with using a powerdrill in the Grampians (Dreamtime has a few sport routes of his with lots of bolts done in the last few years).

On 15/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:>p.s. when is Debolt Australia going to sort out Nobless Oblige?

I can't talk for Debolt Australia, but I did notice that Mikl & GG retro'd their own route. It was done in sensible style with an average of two bolts per 50 metre pitch (plus bolted belays), which is in keeping with the spaced pro trad style it was originally done in.
That is nothing like the spacing of the bolts being discussed on routes earlier in this thread.
It doesn't need sorting.
The only part of that retro I disagree with, was the regrading of it from 11 without bolts, to 13 with them. This does not make sense; and compared to Good Luck and Good Management, (probably Bleeding Nun), Count of Mounting Crystals and other routes similar in that area, it is definitely overgraded at 13.

Since you are devilishly advocating again, why don't you get DeboltOz started on the JG routes at Mackeys, since that is the reason Mikl & GG did their retro ...
;-)
Heh, heh, heh.

I'll point Kevin to this thread. He can read it all and comment if he wants to.
Kevin's still very actively climbing - and very hard. He's at Nuna most Tuesdays.
From conversations, his earlier creations were more the result of hand drilling, rather than a desire to be outrageously bold. There was nearly always gear/bolt at the crux and then it depended on how hard the rest was!
He has added a bolt to some of his older routes - except when he gets distracted by another new route next to the intended retro as happened at Buffalo with me a few years ago.
Michael

On 15/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>'From what I know of him and his routes, I strongly suspect that he would not approve of it, but I am curious to know if he has mellowed significantly about such things in latter years.'

This is the kind of point I was getting to back on page 1 - that the first ascentionist doesn't own the route and shouldn't be the person making the call regarding retroing routes. As people age they are susceptible to changing their attitudes to climbing and style.....the style that the route was put up in should remain constant (or become cleaner) and not be susceptible to being changed/corrupted just because the first ascensionists ideas and feelings change.
Claw and some of his bold ascents which are now being dumbed down are perfect examples.....

>The only part of that retro I disagree with, was the regrading of it from>11 without bolts, to 13 with them. This does not make sense; and compared>to Good Luck and Good Management, (probably Bleeding Nun), Count of Mounting>Crystals and other routes similar in that area, it is definitely overgraded>at 13.

Actually the Watling guide put it at 14 or 15 if I remember correctly, so 'down' to 13 now it has some more gear is OK by me.
It's definitely easier than GL&GM/CoMC, but slab grading is pretty arbitrary it seems.

On 8/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>Also, I gotta say, that flake (at least the bit in the photo) looks pretty>temporary. A lot of climbers seem to think of geology as something which>happened a long time ago. Actually, a climbing life (especially one belonging>to an old fart like Kieran or M9) is plenty long enough to witness substantial>natural erosion of the crags. It's probably better not to get emotionally>attached to holds or sequences!

Amen to that bro(!), though I have to say, numbties adding their influence to 'fragile climbing'* means that even new-age climbers can witness the same thing.

(* ~> Back in the daze(!) of climbing choss as a routine experience, one of the skills learnt was how to use holds constructively rather that destructively...)

On 15/02/2013 rodw wrote:>On 15/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>>(* ~> Back in the daze(!) of climbing choss as a routine experience,>one>>of the skills learnt was how to use holds constructively rather that>destructively...)>>I call it the art of holding on without holding on.

~> Not dis-similar to breathing lightly in order to not upset marginal placements while doing thin aid climbing!
Heh, heh, heh.

>This is the kind of point I was getting to back on page 1 - that the first>ascentionist doesn't own the route and shouldn't be the person making the>call regarding retroing routes. As people age they are susceptible to changing>their attitudes to climbing and style.....the style that the route was>put up in should remain constant (or become cleaner) and not be susceptible>to being changed/corrupted just because the first ascensionists ideas and>feelings change. >Claw and some of his bold ascents which are now being dumbed down are>perfect examples.....>
I disagree to a point. I've bolted routes in the past, sometimes hastily (not good style, I admit), only to stay awake at night thinking "sh#t! I didn't take this or that into account", and from day one I intend on returning to fix or "retro" my own route, but sometimes it can be a couple of years before I even get the chance to return. By this time, the route has either not been repeated, or it's been played on and people have complained, confirming my initial thoughts. What I'm getting at is its my premature "assumption" that I'm not alone in admitting that I did a poor job of bolting, and I'm also " assuming " (perhaps wrongly) that these same people have not changed their climbing style as they've grown older, but always knew they did a less than ideal job under less than ideal circumstances.

Back for a quick question as you are all speaking about and looking at this area. I find the attraction about this particular area is you can base your gear (even your kids and mum) in the grassy amphitheatre bottom of Pintle and enjoy a large variety of climbs all day. Its a simple rap off the chain top of The songlines or crowlands back to base clocking up 200-300m without crossing the same ground.
There is a thin balancey arete of good quality granite direct below LHV named Yeah Boys. Some people have asked about bolting it. It would certainly provide a more challenging way to get to the LHV than up the easy first pitch of Pintle. Its graded around 21 like so many other climbs in the area, which i would think is a negative, however its certainly not protectable with trad after the first 5 metres and it is a new route (Feb 2011) which the FA would be happy to see bolted in a similar nature to the spacing on Peroxide Blonde. If anyone gets there in the next while and climbs it lets us know what you think.

(Snip) Try to imagine what your experience>and motivation would be if you had worked 10 years of your life on residential>and recreation programs with high risk difficult and disengaged teenagers.> Maybe you would see the values in some things a little differently>>(snip)

You know, I have spent over 10 years of my life working with at risk teenagers too, and I don't get how it applies to retrobolting and bolting protectable climbs at Buffalo.

Yes it is great to take these kids into the outdoors (although i do think the welfare industry has taken on adventure experiences as a bit of a panacea when they can't actually deal with the major social issues that these kids will continue to face without massive social change, but that's another debate), but the thing is, these kids (and indeed adults climbing for the first time) don't come with preconceived ideas of leading, freeclimbing, what makes a good climb etc etc. They have a great experience just getting out into the bush (well most of them come round to a good time eventually!) and feel completely chuffed even if they are hauled to the top of a route on a seriously tight toprope. i don't think we do them any favours by imposing our (lets face it, rather contrived) ideas of style and quality. And when we don't do that, whilst Buffalo is a poor destination for beginners, it does have a plethora of accessible large boulders replete with easy slabs and cracks that you can chuck a bunch of top ropes on and give these kids a great time without stepping on anyone's toes. The road to the chalet and area behind it is a good example. You could even put a few camoflaged anchors in and no one would be complaining, or indeed, for the most part, any the wiser.

Where Buffalo does become problematic for beginners is in teaching them to become independant climbers. It is entirely true that there are bugger all appropriate beginner leads there. But I don't think bolting a few easy routes actually solves that problem. Sure, some new climber could clip their way up a 7 or 9 on bolts, but how is this teaching them any of the skillls that they need to lead other routes at buffalo? Or indeed, most places? In order to move onto becoming safe and competant for other routes, they are just going to have to go somewhere else to get experience. And if you are genuinely interested in developing as a climber, you'd do that. You go for a week or 2 to Araps, climb milages of easy stuff, spend another few days in the gramps getting on stuff with more complicated route finding and less reliable rock to get ready for the reality of climbing at Buffalo. And even after that, there's not going to be that much your average climber is ready for at Buffalo, but you'd have a great time and learn heaps. It's just the nature of Buffalo and bolting a few easy routes is not going to change that.

With Profanities, did someone say that was 17? That's not a bloody beginner route anyway. By the time someone is safely able to lead 17, there are myriad existing routes of that grade that are good leads. Even sitting in a cafe in Tassie away from my guidebook, there are a bunch of things already mentioned at the Horn, Maharajah, Fat Wall, Bloodnok, Initiation, the stuff at dreamworld and the mothballs, modern routes on the hump - it's not a lack of 17s that is an issue! Having said that though, if the route had only ever been leading with a preplaced rope for gear, it hadn't had a true ground up ascent and was ripe for the taking in whatever style someone decided to do a ground up lead in.