I was doing some hard driving around the countryside last Monday and noticed a distinct drop off in the brakes performance. Now my driving wasn't that hard, but it had me worried.
Is it easy to upgrade the brakes and how expensive. Anyone got useful info?

Hi John. The car you have has been fitted with the correct braking system to put up with hard and soft driving, so it may be you need some new pads , there is no point in upgrading unless you are doing track days. Get some yellowstuff pads and everything should be ok

GazHyde wrote:Only issue with 'upgrading' the brakes is the possible hike in insurance.

There was a discussion on here recently that putting performance pads on is classed as a 'modification' to the car and needs to be declared.

Worth checking with your insurer before hand, just in case.

Gary

Ah - hadn't thought of that. Mind you, if I'd simply put higher perming pads in I certainly wouldn't be telling the insurance company simply so they could screw more money out of me for no perceivable increase in their risk.

hornel Z3M wrote:Hi John. The car you have has been fitted with the correct braking system to put up with hard and soft driving, so it may be you need some new pads , there is no point in upgrading unless you are doing track days. Get some yellowstuff pads and everything should be ok

Ah - of course - ou may be entirely right. I bought the car in March - it's since been MOT'd but I bet some decent pads would make a world of difference. Thanks for that.

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

jayson f wrote:Hi john what size discs do you have as standard? I have a 3.0 z3 they have 300mm discs and massive calipers this could be an option for an upgrade i find my 3.0 stops very well with these big discs.

Mine's got the standard brake/disk setup for the 2.8. But, after some of the members mentioned YellowStuff, I went to their website. It seems to me that if I go for the Greenstuff pads I should be OK - at my age I'm not putting too much of a strain on the brakes - it's just that I noticed it forst on this summers holiday with madam in and the car fully loaded. It was impossible to lock the wheels. Then the other day after nearly thirty miles of spirited driving in country lanes I really did notice brake fade. I didn't fill me with confidence so I think I'll change the pads all round and maybe next year fit grooved disks (if I've got some spare cash).
Then again, I might sell the 2.8 and go for a 3.0.

jayson f wrote:Hi john what size discs do you have as standard? I have a 3.0 z3 they have 300mm discs and massive calipers this could be an option for an upgrade i find my 3.0 stops very well with these big discs.

Mine's got the standard brake/disk setup for the 2.8. But, after some of the members mentioned YellowStuff, I went to their website. It seems to me that if I go for the Greenstuff pads I should be OK - at my age I'm not putting too much of a strain on the brakes - it's just that I noticed it forst on this summers holiday with madam in and the car fully loaded. It was impossible to lock the wheels. Then the other day after nearly thirty miles of spirited driving in country lanes I really did notice brake fade. I didn't fill me with confidence so I think I'll change the pads all round and maybe next year fit grooved disks (if I've got some spare cash).
Then again, I might sell the 2.8 and go for a 3.0.

John1950 wrote:Ah - hadn't thought of that. Mind you, if I'd simply put higher perming pads in I certainly wouldn't be telling the insurance company simply so they could screw more money out of me for no perceivable increase in their risk.

That's OK until you have an accident and then they see you have made what they might consider a modification. Then if you haven't declared it they can just refuse to pay up. Especially if they argue that the modification to the braking system contributed to the accident. Not saying it would, but if they are looking for a way to avoid paying then that is exactly what they might say.

I suspect they would consider it increases their risk since a need for upgraded brakes tends to suggest you drive faster, harder and brake later.

John1950 wrote:Ah - hadn't thought of that. Mind you, if I'd simply put higher perming pads in I certainly wouldn't be telling the insurance company simply so they could screw more money out of me for no perceivable increase in their risk.

That's OK until you have an accident and then they see you have made what they might consider a modification. Then if you haven't declared it they can just refuse to pay up. Especially if they argue that the modification to the braking system contributed to the accident. Not saying it would, but if they are looking for a way to avoid paying then that is exactly what they might say.

I suspect they would consider it increases their risk since a need for upgraded brakes tends to suggest you drive faster, harder and brake later.

Food for thought!

Yes - I can't disagree with you - but I have a deep mistrust, well, loathing really of motor insurance companies. Whole swathes of their practices, which of course means methods to screw money out of the motorist, certainly have not been shown by any research to indicate increased risk for them. For example - No Claims bonus - this should apply to ANY car you get insured not just to one of them - it's you the driver who's shown by your driving record that you deserve it - not the damn vehicle.
I could go on, but it would ruin my weekend.

I think if you want a cheap improvement then bleed the pipes & put in new fluid. this is supposed to be done every 2 years & its possible that its never been done. it should only cost you a few pounds.

Bill- wrote:I think if you want a cheap improvement then bleed the pipes & put in new fluid. this is supposed to be done every 2 years & its possible that its never been done. it should only cost you a few pounds.

I know this might create a backlash but from my experience, EBC pads are a bit naff! If you want good pads use either Mintex extreme or Ferrodo Ds2500 or Ds3000. I have tried all these pads including EBC and the Ferrodo and Mintex pads are league,s ahead. I admit they are not cheap but they are by far the best road pads i have used and also work well on trackdays, sorry lovers of EBC pads but this is just my personel experience of these pads.

Wouldn't recommend EBC pads for normal use i've found in the past they are just to hard. Try just changing the pads and fluid for OEM spec and you should be fine, failing that a decent set of cross drilled discs would suffice but you probably won't notice the difference everyday.

Did the pedal start to sink further and "go soft"? If so, then you just need to flush the brake fluid for some DOT 5.1 (or go mad for some racing DOT 4 if you're really keen ).

If you still had a pedal, but the effect was less then definately go for YellowStuff's, great pads at a decent price. I used to swear by Pagid's but the Yellow's are nearly the same for half the price!

If it's both, or in doubt, also change the brake fluid, new fluid will work wonders as well.

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

John1950 wrote:ound and maybe next year fit grooved disks (if I've got some spare cash).
Then again, I might sell the 2.8 and go for a 3.0.

You don't need grooved discs for the road, or in most cases, the track either. With cross-drilled discs you are just asking for cracks and performance won't be any better (and generally only cheap discs are available cross-drilled). The 2.8 brake discs are not that bad sized (285mm-ish from memory).

DS2500 are perhaps the worst pad I've used, not bad on the road but in faster road and track conditions they can judder really badly - they also dust hugely. DS3000 are not suitable for you application as they high friction race pads, strong performance but they give off aggressive dust that can damage wheel and paint.

I would recommend for your driving EBC Yellowstuff, they work well from cold and won't fade when hot. Light on discs and don't dust all that much either. They're R90 standards approved which means they comply so I can't see a problem with insurance. Otherwise if you fitted anything other than the BMW pads (ie a generic pad from Mintex, Pagid, Textar etc) then that could be similarly not "standard" pads.

If budget is not a concern then as mentioned Pagid RS29 are a very good pad with very good road manners.

I would also recommend a fluid change if it has not been done already, use DOT 5.1 (from Halfords etc).

Just to stick my oar in, I have to agree with those that like EBC. I've used EBC pads on a number of different cars and found them to be excellent. The greenstuff pads are a bit of a waste of time but certainly, the red and yellow are both fantastic.

I'm not going to bother fitting them to my 3.0, the standard brakes seem more than up to the job.

Did the pedal start to sink further and "go soft"? If so, then you just need to flush the brake fluid for some DOT 5.1 (or go mad for some racing DOT 4 if you're really keen ).

If you still had a pedal, but the effect was less then definately go for YellowStuff's, great pads at a decent price. I used to swear by Pagid's but the Yellow's are nearly the same for half the price!

If it's both, or in doubt, also change the brake fluid, new fluid will work wonders as well.

No - the pedal travel was near enough normal - just the braking effect suddenly became much reduced. It may have been overheating though I doubt it. I'm more inclined to feel in was a combination of pad wear and perhaps ballooning of the hydraulic feed pipes to the brakes,

I think you're right, but having read all these replies, I think I'll stick to BMW pads, flush the system and perhaps buy some braided hoses. That should sort it all out.
My days of looking forward to grease monkeying are over I just want to drive the thing and look like a bronzed street warrior (well, in summer).

Not the conclusion I would take from this thread prolonged use can easily overheat the factory pads, IMO fluid and hoses is not the real solution. That said, fresh pads and fluid will be better than what you have now.

Agree with C_W myself... The pads over-heated and lost their friction (gassing is one theory but pads only have an effective heat range). New pads with more material would help a bit as there's more thermal mass to heat up, but not sure of the overall effect of this...

If it's was the flexible hose expanding then once again the pedal would have sunk, you'd still have braking effect, just a lot lower on the pedal.

Which is similar to boiling the brake fluid, or the first braking after a cooling period, pedal sinks further but you have brakes.

I've not used standard pads myself, but kudos to you as you must have been giving them some stick! I've only ever had that happen once on the road with some massively cheap halfords pads.

RemarkLima wrote:Agree with C_W myself... The pads over-heated and lost their friction (gassing is one theory but pads only have an effective heat range). New pads with more material would help a bit as there's more thermal mass to heat up, but not sure of the overall effect of this...

If it's was the flexible hose expanding then once again the pedal would have sunk, you'd still have braking effect, just a lot lower on the pedal.

Which is similar to boiling the brake fluid, or the first braking after a cooling period, pedal sinks further but you have brakes.

I've not used standard pads myself, but kudos to you as you must have been giving them some stick! I've only ever had that happen once on the road with some massively cheap halfords pads.

This thread certainly seems to exercised quite a few mins - it's a great way to get information here.
Still, I think that once I've got a few quid spare, I'll look at new pads and I like the idea of braided pipes. You've all convinced me that I don't need to consider expensive options like changing all the disks as well.

Also, braided hoses are more fragile than the standard rubber hoses, which IMO are perfectly adequate. Yes braided lines are supposedly lifetime but they don't like being twisted and if your caliper falls when changing pads it could damage the line, whereas a standard hose is very tough.

I've got standard hoses on my M Coupe and use the car on track regularly and pedal feel is fine IMO. With DOT 5.1 fluid the pedal never gets spongey even with race pads.

Fitting braided hoses is often a messy job, and one that often half way through you wish you never started when that rusty rear connection rounds off, it's getting dark and starting to sleet

I must ask, can you get the braided line cheap? As normal price they're the same money as a set of YellowStuff's for the front which would serve you better.

As said before they're EC90 (I think that's the code) which means they're considered "stock replacement" in terms of European law so no drama's there and they're damned good! Coming down some of the monster alpine passes earlier this year and not a hint of brake fade... Always a nice feeling when heading towards a hairpin with no barriers!!

Changing pads is sooo much easier than braided lines, I'd have done that myself but really CBA'd, as C_W says

c_w wrote:Also, braided hoses are more fragile than the standard rubber hoses, which IMO are perfectly adequate. Yes braided lines are supposedly lifetime but they don't like being twisted and if your caliper falls when changing pads it could damage the line, whereas a standard hose is very tough.

I've got standard hoses on my M Coupe and use the car on track regularly and pedal feel is fine IMO. With DOT 5.1 fluid the pedal never gets spongey even with race pads.

Fitting braided hoses is often a messy job, and one that often half way through you wish you never started when that rusty rear connection rounds off, it's getting dark and starting to sleet

Fit EBC Yellowstuff pads, job done.

Do you know, you've convinced me. They don't make the car go faster, look better or increase the price - so I'll give them a miss. So, it's down to changing my pads and changing the fluid. The trouble is, I don't have a ramp.

bowei001 wrote:If you go down the braided pipe route it might be worth checking with your insurance company. A lot of companies have braided brake hoses on their list of modifications which need to be declared.

I wouldn't dream of telling the slimy oiks. I suppose if you replace HT leads with something colourful that's another excuse to try and steal some more money from me.
Unless they can prove that these sort of things lead to more accidents - then they can go and jump - mind you, at over 60 years of age I expect them to listen to me. I don't expect them to try and suggest that putting braided pipes in turns me into a chav behind the wheel.

I know many have already said about the 1 man bleeding kits, but by far the best I've used is a MityVac, which can just draw the fluid through the calliper, no pumping, no attaching to tyres etc... All very clean and tidy!

I know many have already said about the 1 man bleeding kits, but by far the best I've used is a MityVac, which can just draw the fluid through the calliper, no pumping, no attaching to tyres etc... All very clean and tidy!

I switched to EBC Red Stuff pads last year & am very pleased with the increase in braking performance compared to standard pads.
In fact I was quite taken aback by how much of an improvement they made that felt more like I'd had the brakes completely upgraded.
Far less dust to clean off the wheels too.
Also they're not dependant on warming up before they work which I think the yellows which are designed for track use, might be.
Pound for pound it has to be the most cost effective improvement one can make. Wish I'd switched to Reds sooner.

Robin wrote:I switched to EBC Red Stuff pads last year & am very pleased with the increase in braking performance compared to standard pads.
In fact I was quite taken aback by how much of an improvement they made that felt more like I'd had the brakes completely upgraded.
Far less dust to clean off the wheels too.
Also they're not dependant on warming up before they work which I think the yellows which are designed for track use, might be.
Pound for pound it has to be the most cost effective improvement one can make. Wish I'd switched to Reds sooner.

My local garage and I had a good chat yesterday - and they said that fitting these high performance pads was an utter waste of time if driving normally on the roads. They (well, he) went on to say that they are expensive and frankly rather dangerous on the road as they have little good braking effect until they're hot - and on the road they don't get anything like hot enough.
This of course chimes very much with this thread so I'm anticipating sticking to 'road pads' though I'll look up your EBC Red Stuff again just so I can make an informed decision.
I also asked the question, "do grooved discs lead to a greater production of dust?" - "they do" was the reply - just as I expected with the grooves clipping the edges of the pads - so I'll also be sticking to my BMW disks.
Sorry all you burn up boys, but I tend to reserve my throttle flooring for overtaking the arses I meet on the road who seem to think it their duty to be obstructive - especially when they see a sports car behind them. And there seem to be SO many of these pin brained types in England - very different to when I'm driving abroad.

John
I can only reiterate from my experience that the Red stuffs are not dependant on warming up before they work, though I think the yellows which are designed for track use may be.
If you look at the EBC site you'll see the Reds are rated as road pads.
The Red stuffs greatly improve braking efficiency compared to standard pads, contrary to the views of your local 'garage expert', who I can only assume has never tried Red stuff pads & is issuing forth on hearsay. I feel they've made my car safer compared to how it was with the inadequate standard pads.
As for pinheads hogging the middle & outer lanes on motorways & dual carriageways. They make me mad. It'll be a waste of time introducing an 80mph limit unless the police don't start fining them.

Robin wrote:John
I can only reiterate from my experience that the Red stuffs are not dependant on warming up before they work, though I think the yellows which are designed for track use may be.
If you look at the EBC site you'll see the Reds are rated as road pads.
The Red stuffs greatly improve braking efficiency compared to standard pads, contrary to the views of your local 'garage expert', who I can only assume has never tried Red stuff pads & is issuing forth on hearsay. I feel they've made my car safer compared to how it was with the inadequate standard pads.
As for pinheads hogging the middle & outer lanes on motorways & dual carriageways. They make me mad. It'll be a waste of time introducing an 80mph limit unless the police don't start fining them.

Hi Robin
Well, As you might have guessed, I'm very much exercised by having good reliable brakes, but I'm not now into spending money for things on the car which don't make it better, safer or increase it's re-sale value (oh, and by the way, I'm seriously thinking of putting my 2.8 up for sale and looking for a 3.0).

Certainly I want to change the brake fluid and I'm going to have a look at those EBC pads you recommend. It looks like the car is now entering it's hibernation phase with only the odd w/e outing so I'll looking to do maintenance and renewals gradually over the coming months so that by next March it will be in tip top condition.

I'm sure I've said it already in this thread but Yellowstuff work fine from cold. Don't listen to garages they generally have NO idea about things like this. Often their experience of "motorsport" is banger racing, or feathering the throttle whilst inexplicably slipping the clutch whilst maneouvering your car at 2mph.

EBC Yellowstuff are R90 approved which means they meet the standards of braking performance as per standard pads (ie cold friction etc). The only difference is they don't fade when they got hot.

I suppose perhaps the Reds may be fine as they dust even less too.

Prices not massively higher than standard pads.

I use brakes lightly on the road too but it doesn't matter as the Yellows (and the Reds) work fine cold. Plus you have already described how your OEM pads have faded so it makes no sense to not change to an upgrade. Just a long descent on a winding road will get the standard pads hot enough to fade!!

I've used quite a lot of different pads and it is a common misconception that "race" pads need warming up; it's true many race pads get BETTER when warmed up but most at at least as good as oem pads when cold. Certainly Pagid RS29, Carbone Lorraine RC6 which are full on race pads all work better than OEM pads when cold but get much better hot. EBC Yellowstuff are not "full on" race pads, but they do cope very well with trackdays as they don't fade but equally are very good on the road in any style of driving.

A definietly don't bother with slotted/grooved discs, they are not required on the road and most cases on track either. You will see increased pad wear as you suspect but also more noise too and they DON'T make for better brakes.

John1950 wrote:I was doing some hard driving around the countryside last Monday and noticed a distinct drop off in the brakes performance. Now my driving wasn't that hard, but it had me worried.
Is it easy to upgrade the brakes and how expensive. Anyone got useful info?

Then follow up with:

John1950 wrote:My local garage and I had a good chat yesterday - and they said that fitting these high performance pads was an utter waste of time if driving normally on the roads. They (well, he) went on to say that they are expensive and frankly rather dangerous on the road as they have little good braking effect until they're hot - and on the road they don't get anything like hot enough.Sorry all you burn up boys, but I tend to reserve my throttle flooring for overtaking the arses I meet on the road who seem to think it their duty to be obstructive - especially when they see a sports car behind them. And there seem to be SO many of these pin brained types in England - very different to when I'm driving abroad.

Right... So what angle are you coming from This is vital here... We've all given advice based on that you had been driving "enthuastically" enough to cause the OEM pads to fade, hence we all thought you'd benefit from an upgrade of friction material to match your driving style...

So it's a bit unfair to slate us just because a mechanic says something different... I have (and sounds like C_W has as well) done racing, tons of track days, driven 1000's of miles in all manner of different cars, sometimes towing, in snow, rain and everything else, I can say all this from direct experience.

For example, as said, YellowStuff's I also run on my 330d, which I had all though the snow last winter, temps well below freezing and never had a problem with the brakes once, traction yes, brakes no.

I had used Pagid RS14's on an old track car, and I would agree that below freezing these pads DO NOT work at all, and the first few stops are a little hairy, the YellowStuff's are nothing of the sort.

John1950 wrote:I was doing some hard driving around the countryside last Monday and noticed a distinct drop off in the brakes performance. Now my driving wasn't that hard, but it had me worried.
Is it easy to upgrade the brakes and how expensive. Anyone got useful info?

Then follow up with:

John1950 wrote:My local garage and I had a good chat yesterday - and they said that fitting these high performance pads was an utter waste of time if driving normally on the roads. They (well, he) went on to say that they are expensive and frankly rather dangerous on the road as they have little good braking effect until they're hot - and on the road they don't get anything like hot enough.Sorry all you burn up boys, but I tend to reserve my throttle flooring for overtaking the arses I meet on the road who seem to think it their duty to be obstructive - especially when they see a sports car behind them. And there seem to be SO many of these pin brained types in England - very different to when I'm driving abroad.

Right... So what angle are you coming from This is vital here... We've all given advice based on that you had been driving "enthuastically" enough to cause the OEM pads to fade, hence we all thought you'd benefit from an upgrade of friction material to match your driving style...

So it's a bit unfair to slate us just because a mechanic says something different... I have (and sounds like C_W has as well) done racing, tons of track days, driven 1000's of miles in all manner of different cars, sometimes towing, in snow, rain and everything else, I can say all this from direct experience.

For example, as said, YellowStuff's I also run on my 330d, which I had all though the snow last winter, temps well below freezing and never had a problem with the brakes once, traction yes, brakes no.

I had used Pagid RS14's on an old track car, and I would agree that below freezing these pads DO NOT work at all, and the first few stops are a little hairy, the YellowStuff's are nothing of the sort.

Oops, sorry if I've made it sound like I was slating anyone here - that I certainly don't want to do - well not and stay welcome!
No, I was unaware that brake pads varied so much - and once I got reading I was left with the impression , particularly with Yellow stuff and the like that they were pretty much useless for road use unless you kept the temp right up. I thought to myself, "well I don't really drive in such a way as the keep the brakes hot" (well, not normally) so I had distinct visions of buying high performance brakes and then suddenly finding myself driving into something because I hadn't got the pads up to temp. But I did look at various pads and also some beautiful looking disks and was drooling quite a bit. The reality was, after a bit more reading, was that apart from huge cost, I really wouldn't get the best out of the equipment, it wouldn't add to the resale value - and last of all, I think wholesale upgrading of the braking system would be frowned on by the insurance company (a thousand curses be upon them).
So, I came back to earth and felt a full flushing of the system and new Ferodo pads would be best for me.

Mind you, I wouldn't mind selling the car and going up from a 2.8 to a 3.0. I don't think it would make much difference to my current insurance....this might start another thread!