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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

I don't think it's unrealistic to think that Boyle can play decent 2nd pairing EV minutes , with a clear bias toward offense but without being a liability in his own end. (and play on the first PP wave)

I love the fact that the only GM whos not trying to argue for this players
"awesome defense" is the GM that took him. You obviously know why you took him and his strengths and weaknesses.

If you have watched the playoff games, then you should know that Boyle has been consistently the best Shark (or player) on the ice in the playoffs. Boyle is a very good even strength defenseman. I don't know what his defensive reputation is outside of San Jose. Maybe people think he sucks defensively because he doesn't do much penalty killing? But to suggest that he is a poor even strength player or one of the worst defensive defensemen in the ATD is simply uninformed. Among 2nd pairing offensive D, Boyle is easily better than Gonchar and Housley defensively, and I've little doubt he is better than Hollett, Svedberg, Pratt and Egan...and that's just the guys who have already been drafted. Once we get into 3rd pairing guys, there will be many more. If you want 2nd pairing comparables beyond Suter, Boyle is on about the same level as Rafalski and Carlyle, yet nobody calls them powerplay specialists. There will be many worse defensive defensemen drafted in this thing when all is said and done.

I would absolutely call Rafalski a powerplay specialist at this level - moreso than Boyle.

As for Boyle, I think everything you say about him in San Jose is true, but he spent the majority of his career (still) in Tampa Bay, where his defense ranged from poor to adequate (so averages out to somewhat below average). I think over the course of his career, his defense has been "pretty good" on average, but "pretty good" in the NHL is below average for an ATD top 4 defenseman.

It really is amazing the things these guys try and come up with to disprove my players. I see Hedberg already touched on it, but how can you possibly use a goaltender playing countless scoreless Overtimes periods as a negative against him.

WTF are you talking about? It affects my goaltender exactly as much as yours. You're not the only guy with a 1920's/30's goalie who played a lot of deep overtime games in the playoffs. In 1933, for instance, Thompson played NINE overtime periods in a 5-game series, including a 1-0 loss in the 6th overtime period of the final game. Thompson and Hainsworth actually played the same amount of overtime periods in their NHL playoff careers.

Mark, my man, you have a serious persecution complex. Not everything in the universe is conspiring against you. In the immortal words of Arnold Swarzenegger: CHILL OUT.

The goalies also didn't have to wear 300 pound body armor like they do these days, so theoretically at least, I feel like the goalies likely didn't get fatigued as much as the other players.

It's the reverse. Modern goaltending equipment is much lighter than Hainsworth's pads were (it's about 40 lbs total). Old pads also absorbed water, making them significantly heavier as the game went on.

Jesus...are you really this arrogant? Let me put it this way: among 2nd pairing offensive defensemen, Boyle is about average defensively. He is a perfectly acceptable defensive player in his role. You compare him mostly to defensive defensemen as if that is at all relevant.

To take a totally random example of two players I have seen, Dan Boyle is a better defenseman than Jimmy Watson ever was, but looking only at defense, sure, Watson was better. Not that it means anything. Calling Boyle a powerplay specialist or a defensive liability is simply uninformed.

Jeez, testy today.

If you only take 2nd pairing “offensive” defensemen (i.e. choose 32 of them, one from each pairing based on who was more “offensive”) then he would be closer to the middle than he would if you chose all 64. But I still don’t see him being in the middle. You are free to try this exercise once all 2nd pairing defensemen are drafted.

Greg Hawgood was pretty much the Dan Boyle of the AHL. When he was brought up to the NHL he was a defensive liability and a PP specialist. This is what happens when you’re “called up” to a higher level like we do when we select players in the ATD. You can’t be as dominant and your role changes. This doesn’t just affect Boyle, it affects practically every ATD player. If Boyle’s defensive resume/reputation at the NHL level is a mixed bag, it’s reasonable to conclude he would be below average in the ATD.

I love the fact that the only GM whos not trying to argue for this players
"awesome defense" is the GM that took him. You obviously know why you took him and his strengths and weaknesses.

Who has called him "awesome"? Your own co-GM seems to think more highly of Boyle than I do. That must be a fun team to run. I said he was good defensively in the real NHL, which he is. Perhaps I should have been clearer about where he falls in the ATD scheme of things. He is average defensively for his role, which is that of a second pairing puckmover.

Average defensively in an absolute sense would imply that he is among the top 70 defensive defensemen of all-time, which is obviously not true, but then again, seventies could have easily gotten a clarification about what I meant without resorting to his typical arrogant nonsense.

It's the reverse. Modern goaltending equipment is much lighter than Hainsworth's pads were (it's about 40 lbs total). Old pads also absorbed water, making them significantly heavier as the game went on.

If you only take 2nd pairing “offensive” defensemen (i.e. choose 32 of them, one from each pairing based on who was more “offensive”) then he would be closer to the middle than he would if you chose all 64. But I still don’t see him being in the middle. You are free to try this exercise once all 2nd pairing defensemen are drafted.

Greg Hawgood was pretty much the Dan Boyle of the AHL. When he was brought up to the NHL he was a defensive liability and a PP specialist. This is what happens when you’re “called up” to a higher level like we do when we select players in the ATD. You can’t be as dominant and your role changes. This doesn’t just affect Boyle, it affects practically every ATD player. If Boyle’s defensive resume/reputation at the NHL level is a mixed bag, it’s reasonable to conclude he would be below average in the ATD.

Below-average is a possibility but I don't think he would be THAT below-average , while he's a good offensive dman with good leadership and playoff play.Paired with a good defensive guy , Boyle can do a nice job on a 2nd pairing , not to mention on the 1st PP wave.I truly have no problem whatsoever with Boyle on my 2nd pairing and don't regret the pick , I know what he is and I'm not overselling him.I think not being the main guy and playing less minutes will be good for Boyle defensive game.His offense at EV will suffer a bit , but his PP offense will remains.

It's the reverse. Modern goaltending equipment is much lighter than Hainsworth's pads were (it's about 40 lbs total). Old pads also absorbed water, making them significantly heavier as the game went on.

Hmm.. that's a good point actually. A LOT of it would then come down to who had much better endurance in their legs if the game dragged on a long time.

It's the reverse. Modern goaltending equipment is much lighter than Hainsworth's pads were (it's about 40 lbs total). Old pads also absorbed water, making them significantly heavier as the game went on.

It's neither. Goalies at both ends of the ice wear the same gear - or at least very similar gear - so neither guy would have an advantage over thier peers within their era.

It's neither. Goalies at both ends of the ice wear the same gear - or at least very similar gear - so neither guy would have an advantage over thier peers within their era.

Maybe not based on equipment, but if any goalie realized that the pads over a long period of time would wear heavily on their legs far more than other equipment, they could do a lot to help improve the strength and conditioning of their legs. This would give them a serious, serious advantage over their peers because by the time the playoffs hit, they wouldn't be nearly as worn out as everyone else.

I'm implying that my statement (THE ONE YOU QUOTED) was honest curiosity about the affects of long overtime games on scoring chances. Don't you think it would be an interesting study?

Being that our goalies played in the same era and played the exact same amount of NHL playoff overtime periods, are you implying that I'm trying to sabotage both our goalies at the same time? How would that benefit me?

Honestly man, I'd appreciate it if you didn't assume everything I say was some sort of covert attack against you. I've commented on exactly one of your players so far this draft. You've commented on more than one of mine. I've voted for your team in 2 or 3 playoff rounds in previous drafts, have you ever voted for mine?

Let's face it, we're never going to be superfriends and have sleepovers and stuff. But you don't need to be so defensive about everything I say. Just like the other 31 GM's, it is my right to weigh in on things when I have something to say. And in turn, I'll bite my tongue whenever possible.

Who has called him "awesome"? Your own co-GM seems to think more highly of Boyle than I do. That must be a fun team to run. I said he was good defensively in the real NHL, which he is. Perhaps I should have been clearer about where he falls in the ATD scheme of things. He is average defensively for his role, which is that of a second pairing puckmover.

Average defensively in an absolute sense would imply that he is among the top 70 defensive defensemen of all-time, which is obviously not true, but then again, seventies could have easily gotten a clarification about what I meant without resorting to his typical arrogant nonsense.

My own co-gm doesnt think highly of him because of his defensive qualities. Average defensively, yes, I can agree with that but you called him good which he is not.

It's neither. Goalies at both ends of the ice wear the same gear - or at least very similar gear - so neither guy would have an advantage over thier peers within their era.

Unless they were playing against Arturs Irbe!

I have a sweet picture of myself wearing some classic brown pads in my early years as a goalie with the Aurora Tigers. Kids nowadays will never know what it's like to wear pads that weigh more than they do.

I feel like the 90's was the transitional period from hockey-as-art to hockey-as-science. I feel lucky to have started my hockey "career" in 1990 .

I recorded 4 assists in a game as a goalie once. Which is to say, I am arguably the greatest offensive goalie of all time (at least in terms of peak value). I think I still have the game sheet somewhere. Any of you guys who do the AAA Draft should look into drafting me. Just saying.

But yeah, retro selke tells us a guy was strong defensively, but you can't read much more into it than that. A selke is hard enough to hand out on any given year now, so how can it be accurate to to 70 years back and do it

Exactly. It's nice to pile them, and I will mention them in my biography, but you have to threat them with diligence. They are not the real thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe

I see a retro Selke as evidence that a guy was good defensively and was a very good penalty killer (at least for the Retro Selkes starting in the 1930s). From what I've gathered, the Retro Selkes that Ultimate Hockey gave out tended to go to guys where there is a lot of evidence of penalty killing, rather than necessarily shut down ability at even strength (though that helps too).

I agree. And both Metz and Klukay were elite penalty killers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkrx

Lennart "Lill-strimma" Svedberg, D

If Frank Patrick didn't fell to me at 307, he would of been my selection at 321. Fantastic offensive defenceman. I wanted him to play alongside Moose Vasko, which I think would of been a nice 2nd pairing. He had been on my radar as soon as I started researching Jan Suchy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe

This is either a solid pick or an excellent one. How good it is really depends on what his stats in Sweden and International Tournaments were compared to other players. I think he's probably pretty weak defensively for this level, but he reads like a potential offensive ringer right about now.

Svedberg is definitely, at this point, one of the worst defensive defenceman selected. The only thing going for him in his own zone is speed. I believe you have to pair him up with a big stay-at-home defenceman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe

His Pelletier profile mentions that as a converted forward, he sometimes struggled in his own zone. Pelletier is the guy who calls Suchy the European Bobby Orr. He basically calls Svedberg the European Paul Coffey. Is that wrong?

Svedberg played forward until he was 18 years of age. It's written in multiple books that his defence was affected by this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bugg

Kimberley selects C Vladimir Shadrin.

Shadrin is a very nice two-way player, but he's he excellent on a third line, or has he enough offensive talent to play a Top-6 role?

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord

I like the pick, but I am not as high on him as I was before. I was too “top-10 obsessed” back in ATD11 and I believe in percentages much more (as I believe we all do now. No one thinks that 5th in 1912 is as good as 5th 50 years later, for example, and percentages typically demonstrate that)

The other guy you asked me about: 76, 66, 61, 53, 53, 42, 42. Pretty sure Cleghorn was better, especially when you consider that pre-67 players are inherently a bit lower on percentage scales than we intuitively feel they should be.

Cleghorn is probably the best pre-merger RW you could have taken. Maybe not the best pre-merger winger though.

So, you did very well, even if it’s not as well as some gaudy finishes might lead one to believe.

Thanks for the comeback. I also like the overall skill that Cleghorn brings to the table. He's not an 'offense' only kind of guy, and his physical presence, although not a 'Sprague' kind of physicality, was important to me. I prefered him to a softer player. Moreover, I think those numbers looks good, considering the position I took him. I'm not trying to sell him more than I think he is, but at that point, I'm very happy I got him.

And yes, I'm pretty sure I know the 'other' winger you're talking about, and I agree, but that position was already filled

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe

I think Boyle is clearly better than the likes of Housley and Gonchar in his own zone.

Obviously, both those two will be two of the top five worst defenceman defensively to play in a Top-4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sturminator

Average defensively in an absolute sense would imply that he is among the top 70 defensive defensemen of all-time, which is obviously not true, but then again, seventies could have easily gotten a clarification about what I meant without resorting to his typical arrogant nonsense.

I agree that arrogance is never the way in the ATD, but in all honesty I've been reading the whole discussion thinking you viewed Boyle as an average defensive defenceman compared to all the defenceman selected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markrander87

He's going to need some "factual evidence" to back up this claim.

I've been playing goaltenders for 20 years now, and I started playing with the good old brown pads + glove/blocker, and trust me, they are easily heavier. My 33inches pads, with full protection that cost me two grand are lighter than the 20 inch brown pads I was playing with when I was novice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arrbez

let's practice spin-the-bottle so we're all extra good at it when the girls show up

Swamp Devils pick the defining coach from hockey's first half of existence.

Lester Patrick, coach

Patrick is one of those rare coaches who proved he could win with any type of team in completely different eras. In the PCHA, his teams won using a hard nosed, defensive style. In the NHL, his teams won playing something closer to a run and gun style. As coach of the Rangers, Patrick had a firm grip on "1st Team All Star Coach" back when coaches were a part of All Star Teams.

Patrick was an innovator - Among other things, his influence led to creation of blue lines, penalty shots, forward passes, and changes on the fly.

A Lester Patrick coached team should be capable of playing any style of game and executing any scheme

Swamp Devils pick the defining coach from hockey's first half of existence.

Lester Patrick, coach

Patrick is one of those rare coaches who proved he could win with any type of team in completely different eras. In the PCHA, his teams won using a hard nosed, defensive style. In the NHL, his teams won playing something closer to a run and gun style. As coach of the Rangers, Patrick had a firm grip on "1st Team All Star Coach" back when coaches were a part of All Star Teams.

Patrick was an innovator - Among other things, his influence led to creation of blue lines, penalty shots, forward passes, and changes on the fly.

A Lester Patrick coached team should be capable of playing any style of game and executing any scheme

Can you point to the post where I said anything about Hainsworth's abilities as a goalie? Oh wait, I didn't. All I said was he played in front of a team with a better defense, and that who took significantly less penalties. Your quote does nothing to refute either of those very legitimate points I made, and you've conveniently decided to not at all address either of those points. If you want to play a quote war between Parent and Hainsworth, I'd be happy to oblige.

Quote:

Yet anyone who saw him play in the mid-1970s knows few goalies have ever played at a higher level than Bernie Parent.

Much like Dominik Hasek 20 years later with Buffalo, for a period of time Parent was simply incredible. He was "the second coming of Jacques Plante" and the Flyers "undisputed MVP." Neither of the Flyers' much celebrated back to back Stanley Cup championships would have been possible without Parent.

"When Parent is out there, we know we can win games we have no business winning," said xxx, the calculating coach of the Flyers glory years.

Quote:

In winning back-to-back Stanley Cups, the Flyers got spectacular goaltending from Bernie Parent and Pattonesque leadership from Clarke but were otherwise a modestly talented crew

Quote:

They beat the Buffalo Sabres 2-0 behind Bernie Parent's impeccable goaltending in the climactic sixth game in steamy Buffalo.

No one can deny that the Flyers have character. Lots of it. Take that downright honest character, add a generous portion of Parent's wizard goaltending

'Only the Lord saves more than Bernie Parent,' really isn't true," said Buffalo's xxx. "God couldn't have made all the saves that Parent made against us."

I did that from LOH, Pelletier, and looking through a couple(not all) of SI's articles that involve Parent.

Swamp Devils pick the defining coach from hockey's first half of existence.

Lester Patrick, coach

Patrick is one of those rare coaches who proved he could win with any type of team in completely different eras. In the PCHA, his teams won using a hard nosed, defensive style. In the NHL, his teams won playing something closer to a run and gun style. As coach of the Rangers, Patrick had a firm grip on "1st Team All Star Coach" back when coaches were a part of All Star Teams.

Patrick was an innovator - Among other things, his influence led to creation of blue lines, penalty shots, forward passes, and changes on the fly.

A Lester Patrick coached team should be capable of playing any style of game and executing any scheme

(as a bonus, he can suit up for third string goalie if need be)

Nice choice, I was hoping to get him. I didn't think he would go this early (Not to say it isn't deserved).

Nice choice, I was hoping to get him. I didn't think he would go this early (Not to say it isn't deserved).

When I won ATD 2010, I was the 4th GM to select a coach. Let's hope history repeats itself

I seriously think there's a case Patrick is as good as Al Arbour, we just know less about him. And Patrick has "extra ATD value" like Toe Blake does because he's proven that he can coach and win using both offensive and defensive schemes.