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Topic: Universal Atonement (Read 2784 times)

If Universal Atonement is true as the Arminians believe, and the Atonement is effectual for those it was intended to save or redeem as the Calvinists believe, then the Atonement has in effect already redeemed all mankind. Atonement of course means reconciliation. Our salvation or redeemption of course does not stop at the Atonement. If that were the case, we would just be saved or redeemed with the stain and filth of sin still on us, and we would remain babes in Christ. This is why God must complete or work out our salvation(Philippians 2:12-13). The Calvinists and Arminians call this the order of salvation(Ordo Salutis). This I believe is the order of salvation---1.The Atonement/Reconciliation. 2.The Calling. 3.Repentance. 4.Regeneration. 5.Faith/Belief. 6.Justification. 7.Santification 8.Glorification. You may not agree with the order I have them in, and that's alright. I just want to show how God completes or works out salvation in us, believers and unbelievers. The believers or elect begin their order of salvation in this age. That's why this age is called the church age or Pentecost. The believers have already been redeemed, called, repented, given faith/belief, and justified. Their santification and glorification is yet to come. The unbelievers of course are still at the first order of salvation(Atonement/Reconciliation). The unbelievers continue their order of salvation in the ages or eons to come. The church misunderstands the purpose of the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not for eternal punishment or torment. And the lake of fire is not for salvation. The purpose of the lake of fire is to chastise, purge, purify, and cleanse sinners who have already been redeemed and reconciled. The order of salvation continues for unbelievers or the rest of mankind in the lake of fire and in the ages or eons to come. Blessings.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 01:47:14 AM by rjohnson741 »

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"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

I believe slightly differently. The atonement provides for the reconciliation. The reconciliation is being accomplished, one soul at a time through the ages by the "anakephalaomai"(gathering of all things into one eph 1:10,11) and the "apocastasis"(reconciliation of all things Col 1:16-21) until the last adversary is subjected(1 Cor 15:28) and God is all in all.

I believe slightly differently. The atonement provides for the reconciliation. The reconciliation is being accomplished, one soul at a time through the ages by the "anakephalaomai"(gathering of all things into one eph 1:10,11) and the "apocastasis"(reconciliation of all things Col 1:16-21) until the last adversary is subjected(1 Cor 15:28) and God is all in all.

Therefore, IMO the atonement is complete, the reconciliation is not.

Hi Eaglesway. You say the atonement is complete, the reconciliation is not. That depends on whose perspective you are viewing it from---God's or man's perspective. We must remember that God is sovereign, all powerful, and omniscient. God is the Alpha and the Omega, The Beginning and The End. "God has neither beginning of days nor end of life" Hebrews 7:3. From God's point of view, there are no such things as past or future events: only now. When time ends, when the eons or ages end, whose there? God is. All things begin and end with God. God is Eternity!!! The reason I'm pointing this out is because the Bible is God's written word to us. The Bible is God talking to us and not a man. From God's view point, we have already been through the order of salvation. As far as God is concerned, our salvation is already a completed work--from start to finish. How do we know this---"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient of times THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT YET DONE, saying my counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure" Isaiah 46:10. But we are mortal creatures, bound by time. We have to go through the actual process or order of salvation. This is what Philippians 2:12-13 means by God working out our salvation. This is why Reconciliation happened at the cross---"For if WHILE WE WERE ENEMIES, WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD through the death of His Son, much more, HAVING BEEN RECONCILED, we shall be saved by His life" Romans 5:10 NASB. As you can see from this scripture and from God's perspective, God has already reconciled himself to us. And since all mankind was an enemy to God, all mankind is already reconciled to God. Blessings to you.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 08:36:52 AM by rjohnson741 »

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"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

The perspective I view from and speak from, as much as is possible, is that of the Logos. In my opinion this is God's perspective, written in time for those of us who still live within time. While some claim to understand things from "God's perspective" I tend to just stay in the Word. The scriptures indicate to me that there is a real purpose to the ages and the generations and that God has constructed the cosmos this way. We must pass through it, and while in it, we have the scriptures as a map and the Spirit as a light to our feet. Paul said, "If anyone has not believed our gospel it is because the God of this world has blinded their eyes so they cannot see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

He also said, Eph 5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

I am so glad that mercy triumphs over judgment in the end, but as Jesus said to some Pharisees, "Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come". IMO, the atonement is complete, but the reconciliation of all, the gathering together of all things into Christ, the subjection of the last adversary, and the restoration of all things is an administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma-completion) of time and it has got a way to go yet.

The perspective I view from and speak from, as much as is possible, is that of the Logos. In my opinion this is God's perspective, written in time for those of us who still live within time. While some claim to understand things from "God's perspective" I tend to just stay in the Word. The scriptures indicate to me that there is a real purpose to the ages and the generations and that God has constructed the cosmos this way. We must pass through it, and while in it, we have the scriptures as a map and the Spirit as a light to our feet. Paul said, "If anyone has not believed our gospel it is because the God of this world has blinded their eyes so they cannot see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

He also said, Eph 5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

I am so glad that mercy triumphs over judgment in the end, but as Jesus said to some Pharisees, "Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come". IMO, the atonement is complete, but the reconciliation of all, the gathering together of all things into Christ, the subjection of the last adversary, and the restoration of all things is an administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma-completion) of time and it has got a way to go yet.

I am enjoying your comments. They are Biblically sound and thought provoking. The word of God is God's perspective. The Bible does say we are to flee from the wrath to come, and as Ephesian 5:6 says the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Believers do not have to fear God's wrath, seeing that we as believers have already been reconciled to God(Romans 5:10). God is love. This means that it's God's nature to love. Everything God does is an expression of His love. If this is true, then God's wrath must be an expression of His love. "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God" Romans 11:22. God's obedient children experience God's love as goodness. God's disobedient children experience God's love as severity. Any disobedient child who has been spanked will tell you love hurts(severity). Since God is love(1John 4:8-16), Romans 11:22 can easily read this way---"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of [Love]: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also will be cut off" Romans 11:22. God is not angry with mankind---"His anger endureth but a moment; in his favor is life" Psalm 30:5. God loves mankind. But the wicked and disobedient experience God's Love as wrath and torment. "And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB" Revelation 14:11. And what is the purpose of the Lamb?---"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the LAMB OF GOD WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" John 1:29.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 11:26:15 AM by rjohnson741 »

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"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

The perspective I view from and speak from, as much as is possible, is that of the Logos. In my opinion this is God's perspective, written in time for those of us who still live within time. While some claim to understand things from "God's perspective" I tend to just stay in the Word. The scriptures indicate to me that there is a real purpose to the ages and the generations and that God has constructed the cosmos this way. We must pass through it, and while in it, we have the scriptures as a map and the Spirit as a light to our feet. Paul said, "If anyone has not believed our gospel it is because the God of this world has blinded their eyes so they cannot see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

He also said, Eph 5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

I am so glad that mercy triumphs over judgment in the end, but as Jesus said to some Pharisees, "Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come". IMO, the atonement is complete, but the reconciliation of all, the gathering together of all things into Christ, the subjection of the last adversary, and the restoration of all things is an administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma-completion) of time and it has got a way to go yet.

I am enjoying your comments. They are Biblically sound and thought provoking. The word of God is God's perspective. The Bible does say we are to flee from the wrath to come, and as Ephesian 5:6 says the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Believers do not have to fear God's wrath, seeing that we as believers have already been reconciled to God(Romans 5:10). God is love. This means that it's God's nature to love. Everything God does is an expression of His love. If this is true, then God's wrath must be an expression of His love. "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God" Romans 11:22. God's obedient children experience God's love as goodness. God's disobedient children experience God's love as severity. Any disobedient child who has been spanked will tell you love hurts(severity). Since God is love(1John 4:8-16), Romans 11:22 can easily read this way---"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of [Love]: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also will be cut off" Romans 11:22. God is not angry with mankind---"His anger endureth but a moment; in his favor is life" Psalm 30:5. God loves mankind. But the wicked and disobedient experience God's Love as wrath and torment. "And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB" Revelation 14:11. And what is the purpose of the Lamb?---"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the LAMB OF GOD WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" John 1:29.

I keep hearing that, but that is not applicable within the environment we are in- "the ages". Within the ages God communicates with us through the Logos which continually refers to past, present & future- and holds us accountable to the constraints of time. I find it a bit assuming that anyone wants to "speak for God" as if the language of the scripture is archaic because "God sees everything as if it is finished" AND I beg to differ :O).

God is with us here in time.

The Potter's wheel is here in time, and while God most certainly transcends time, HE SPEAKS TO US IN IT- and the language He uses is not the language of the finished work, but the language of the ongoing process WITH AN EYE OF HOPE TOWARDS the finished work.

For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. (Rom 8:24-25)

I keep hearing that, but that is not applicable within the environment we are in- "the ages". Within the ages God communicates with us through the Logos which continually refers to past, present & future- and holds us accountable to the constraints of time. I find it a bit assuming that anyone wants to "speak for God" as if the language of the scripture is archaic because "God sees everything as if it is finished" AND I beg to differ :O).

God is with us here in time.

The Potter's wheel is here in time, and while God most certainly transcends time, HE SPEAKS TO US IN IT- and the language He uses is not the language of the finished work, but the language of the ongoing process WITH AN EYE OF HOPE TOWARDS the finished work.

For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. (Rom 8:24-25)

I never assumed to "speak for God" as you suggested. I simply quoted Isaiah 46:10 to show that God sees future events as if they have already happened and already been done. I am perfectly aware that God must still work out our salvation in this age, and in the ages to come.

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"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

I think he was talking to me RJ. I did, however, start my pontificating with an IMO.I forget sometimes but it Probably wouldn't hurt for everyone to do the same once in a while. - especially when disagreeing.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

I think he was talking to me RJ. I did, however, start my pontificating with an IMO.I forget sometimes but it Probably wouldn't hurt for everyone to do the same once in a while. - especially when disagreeing.

Hi dead2daworld. Eaglesway was probably talking about me as well, because I also said God sees future events as already been done. IMO, this isn't a disagreement. But that is alright as long as we believe in the end result---The eventual salvation of everyone!! Blessings to you.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 01:59:17 AM by rjohnson741 »

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"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

I keep hearing that, but that is not applicable within the environment we are in- "the ages". Within the ages God communicates with us through the Logos which continually refers to past, present & future- and holds us accountable to the constraints of time. I find it a bit assuming that anyone wants to "speak for God" as if the language of the scripture is archaic because "God sees everything as if it is finished" AND I beg to differ :O).

God is with us here in time.

The Potter's wheel is here in time, and while God most certainly transcends time, HE SPEAKS TO US IN IT- and the language He uses is not the language of the finished work, but the language of the ongoing process WITH AN EYE OF HOPE TOWARDS the finished work.

For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. (Rom 8:24-25)

I never assumed to "speak for God" as you suggested. I simply quoted Isaiah 46:10 to show that God sees future events as if they have already happened and already been done. I am perfectly aware that God must still work out our salvation in this age, and in the ages to come.

rj, I was not speaking to anyone in particular, but I was responding to Ded's post with a smile on :o). I speak of ideas and perceptions only, and it just isnt at all personal to me. I was speaking to what I perceive(rightly or wrongly, it is just my perception) as a bias against the language of scripture as it applies to life "in time", the exercise of our will, and accountability for it. By "speaking for God"(maybe "speaking as if I had God's perspective" would have been more accurate) I was simply expressing the idea that speaking in the language of scripture is the "media" of the mind of Christ- there is no gainsaying (of the exhortations of the Logos ) of the Word by a philosophy(again, merely my perception) that seems to me sometimes to by-pass the scripture. God IS omniscient, but we aren't and He doesn't speak to us on His own level very often- that is where the tree of knowledge of good and evil always trips us up(IMO). The tree of life is the living and abiding, Quickened and Activated, word of God- the Sword of His mouth- and it is often quite time conscious I think.

In other words, if God sees everything as done, why is He speaking so often to us in the Logos about what we are doing, and the consequences of the things we do or don't do.

I believe as far as we are concerned, we are better off to hear what He IS SAYING TODAY ABOUT WHAT WE ARE DOING, than speculating about how He sees every moment through out all history at once(as I am sure He does), and I say that only because I think He expresses that Himself,

"Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

"Today, if you hear my voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness and saw my works"....which the writer sets forth as the entrance to the Sabbath rest. So, meaning no offense to anyone I was just, doing my bit to throw a little weightt on the "other side of the balance" and I am sorry if it was taken in any other way. Sometimes we(any of us) don't have time to craft these posts perfectly and it is surely an imperfect medium...... And as I was addressing Ded2daworld's post I just didnt think he would be offended or that anyone else would take it as personally directed.

IMO, the minor discrepancy is that the Bible says that God sees the future and to him it is as if it has already occurred.To use todays slang, What is future to us, to God is "a done deal"

Yes, Jeff, I agree with you, for I believe that God lives/exists outside of time, and outside the Creation - or rather, outside of Creation, both the time and the space of it. We are contained, but He is not.

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Socrates taught Plato. Plato taught Aristotle. Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon. This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people. That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth. He blessed the poor. He healed the sick. He even raised the dead. He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another. That's religion.

I'm putting this post here so I can remember and refer myself to this thread more easily. I just can't put much in it now. I do want to share along with y'all on this topic.

My View of the Atonement

I see Jesus wrought a complete victory over everything destroying mankind. It was as a man anointed with the Holy Ghost and power that He triumphed over the world, the flesh, and the devil, even defeating the last enemy death as first begotten from the dead. He has opened a path for the rest of us to follow, anointing us to be Overcomers along with Him.

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

IMO, the minor discrepancy is that the Bible says that God sees the future and to him it is as if it has already occurred.To use todays slang, What is future to us, to God is "a done deal"

Yes, Jeff, I agree with you, for I believe that God lives/exists outside of time, and outside the Creation - or rather, outside of Creation, both the time and the space of it. We are contained, but He is not.

He is not contained, but as Paul said, "In Him we live and move and have our being". He is very much "with" us in time. Time IS the threshing floor where He separates the wheat from the chaff. I mean, that is all "His own" language. The scriptures do not come from man. "Holy men moved of God.....God-breathed".... these are the terms that describe the Word He speaks both Now and Today.