@LoH - the link provided was a definition of the term. Check Miriam Webster or American College or whatever dictionary you like... A word means what a word means, and I don't need a wikipedia article to define my point... just a term so that we know what a term means. I provided it so you would know what fascism is. Thanks for your normal response.

As for the term "radical" thank you for engaging in meaningless semantics. Cleverness /= thinking.

@Tommycat: Yes, being supported by Unions is far superior to being supported by business. A Union is a body, representing a large group who share the same opinion. A business is generally a couple of stuffed suits. Your point is totally lost on me... And again, I am not saying that unionization is devoid of evil.

I am curious what you do for a living.... and why teachers and Veteran's Home workers are unimportant to you. Those folks are Union too.... how are you dividing this?

@Totenkopf: I think you are under the assumption that I am a Democrat. Uh, no. Voted for Ron Paul.
Could you provide an example of these 50 layers of management pay? What Unions are you talking about, and are you aware of the diversity of unions?

@Det. Bart Lassiter: The Reagan comment was brilliant. Thank you for levity!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin

They should be the same across the board for all the same level employees. So Texas should have the same rules for all state employees and the federal government should have the same rules for all federal employees. The federal government should not mandate that states use the same rules as the federal government.

The bold part could not be stated better. Texas should have seceded. I wish that State governments would start discussing the idea of secession more and openly... the Federal government no longer represents anyone other than Big Business.

Did not work out real well for us the last time we did it. Plus we need someone with 2 brain cells as governor before we tried. If Sarah Palin is running against Rick Perry in the Republican Primary for President, I'm voting for Palin twice. Compared to him she has a PHD in intelligence. She may not know what magazines she reads or that Africa is a continent, but I’d be surprised he knew what a magazine was or there was even an Africa.

@LoH - the link provided was a definition of the term. Check Miriam Webster or American College or whatever dictionary you like... A word means what a word means, and I don't need a wikipedia article to define my point... just a term so that we know what a term means. I provided it so you would know what fascism is. Thanks for your normal response.

And instead of actually making your point you assume ignorance on my side. I am perfectly familiar with fascism. I extensively studied the WWII-era while my classmates were screwing off in middle and high school. Studying socio-political phenomena is one of my hobbies, and currently the subject of my university electives.

Quote:

As for the term "radical" thank you for engaging in meaningless semantics. Cleverness /= thinking.

Meaningless semantics? If you don't want to bring up a point of discussion and actually discuss it, don't bring it up.

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

@Totenkopf: I think you are under the assumption that I am a Democrat. Uh, no. Voted for Ron Paul.

No, didn't know what you were. Just figured you were very pro-union based on your posts. Given that you work in the entertainment field, thinking dem may seem a no-brainer, but didn't go there. The dem/pro-union connection might be a natural assumption, but well aware that not all union supporters are dems.

Quote:

Could you provide an example of these 50 layers of management pay? What Unions are you talking about, and are you aware of the diversity of unions?

That wasn't mine. That was mim vs TC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mim

The federal government should not mandate that states use the same rules as the federal government when it comes to how it treats its unionized workers.

Never said they should.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

And instead of actually making your point you assume ignorance on my side. I am perfectly familiar with fascism. I extensively studied the WWII-era while my classmates were screwing off in middle and high school. Studying socio-political phenomena is one of my hobbies, and currently the subject of my university electives.

Meaningless semantics? If you don't want to bring up a point of discussion and actually discuss it, don't bring it up.

I assume nothing on your part... well not exactly true, but I prefer to be nice.

Do you dispute my use of the term "fascism"? Have I used the word incorrectly? Perhaps it is a bit of hyperbole, but by definition the actions of the WI governor have been.... Fascist.

As for the "radical" point, I fail to see why you have chosen my admittedly (see post #23) hair-brained and wholly least important part of my OP, and think that you can hammer something home on it when it really has nothing to do at all with the main argument? This is a bit of a straw-man attempt, as it is unimportant to the main issue. If you want to debate how American's improperly use the term "radical right" or "radical left" or "radical" anything, start your own thread on the topic! The way I used the term is understood by most Americans. If it is used improperly, oh well, that is the vernacular of the day.

I am impressed by how much you studied WW2 in middle and HS. I am not impressed yet by your ability to ferret out the argument, although with your intelligence, you will someday. I recommend taking some Logic courses at University... Like I did when I went to college in 1990.

@Totenkopf: I lean left, but I choose no party. I am pro-Union because my Union does help me make a good living. The work I do is fairly well compensated, but the risk and nature of the work deserve that compensation. I deal with BIG power, stuff that will literally fry a man. As a result, I constantly have to remember proper habits... one misstep, and POOF.

Sorry that I took a part of someone else's argument and put it on you... should have read more carefully!

@Totenkopf: I lean left, but I choose no party. I am pro-Union because my Union does help me make a good living. The work I do is fairly well compensated, but the risk and nature of the work deserve that compensation. I deal with BIG power, stuff that will literally fry a man. As a result, I constantly have to remember proper habits... one misstep, and POOF.

Sorry that I took a part of someone else's argument and put it on you... should have read more carefully!

No problem. Ever work on any Charlie Sheen projects? Talk about a loose cannon....

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

I assume nothing on your part... well not exactly true, but I prefer to be nice.

Do you dispute my use of the term "fascism"? Have I used the word incorrectly? Perhaps it is a bit of hyperbole, but by definition the actions of the WI governor have been.... Fascist.

Okay, I see the basis upon which you make the comparison but it is pretty that: hyperbole. The governor and other Republicans might have forced their way around, but that's hardly fascism.

Quote:

As for the "radical" point, I fail to see why you have chosen my admittedly (see post #23) hair-brained and wholly least important part of my OP, and think that you can hammer something home on it when it really has nothing to do at all with the main argument? This is a bit of a straw-man attempt, as it is unimportant to the main issue. If you want to debate how American's improperly use the term "radical right" or "radical left" or "radical" anything, start your own thread on the topic! The way I used the term is understood by most Americans. If it is used improperly, oh well, that is the vernacular of the day.

I could argue this, but there's not much point.

Quote:

I am impressed by how much you studied WW2 in middle and HS. I am not impressed yet by your ability to ferret out the argument, although with your intelligence, you will someday. I recommend taking some Logic courses at University... Like I did when I went to college in 1990.

Wow, a compliment! Thank you, I'd be taking some logic and more philosophy classes right now if the registration system at my university wasn't so stretched out.

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

I liked KO much better when he was talking about NFL football and the WNBA. Any sport topic actually; he is a smart and funny guy, until he turns on the political hyperbole. Just wanted to show how FAIR and BALANCED I am.

Glenn, Being supported by the Unions isn't actually being supported by the union members. The Union LEADERS decide what political candidate they invest in. Many times they actually go AGAINST the will of the Union MEMBERS. This is the reason I would prefer not to have to be a part of the union to work someplace. If my politics disagree with the union leaders, I am not given the choice to leave the union.

Here in AZ we are seeing some of that. Many Phoenix police officers are leaving the Union because of the leaders support of 1070.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

I'm very concerned about violence breaking out at the capital later today. Protesters swarmed the building this past evening, breaking into garden-level windows and forcing open emergency entrances to gain access after the building was supposed to close to all visitors at 6pm. The police did not have nearly enough people on hand to keep the protesters out. I don't think they'll have enough people on hand tomorrow to protect the Assembly members when they vote on the collective bargain rules, certainly not if a bunch of union people come up from Chicago tomorrow, as they have been in increasing numbers in the last 10-14 days or so.

As far as the negotiations have been: Walker and Fitzgerald have been doing back-door negotiations for the past couple weeks with the Dems, even meeting with them in border counties face-to-face to discuss it. They thought they had a deal hammered out on Monday--in fact one Dem source reported it to the Wall Street Journal. Miller, the Minority leader who's apparently under pressure from Washington to stay in IL, reneged on the deal.

On top of that, we now have the recall insanity going on, with the national GOP and Dem parties getting involved to fund that bullsh*t. My state senator will likely be recalled, unfortunately, even though he's done a pretty decent job the rest of the time he's been in office. So, more of my tax dollars will be wasted on paying for unnecessary elections.

The Dems can't stay in IL forever. One of the state senators is 7 months pregnant, and she needs to be seeing her OB on a more frequent basis now that she's farther along in her pregnancy. I'm sure she'd rather be at home in early labor than in a hotel room in IL, too. Other Dems want to go home, too.

The facts: the state is going to be 3 billion in debt. We have to make cuts all over the place, and we can't just keep increasing taxes. WI has one of the highest state taxes already--there's a limit to what we can pay. We can't attract as much business as other states because of all the regulations, fees, and taxes. At the same time, there are rampant union rules abuses that can't be fixed any other way because the union won't allow it. Is it right that a city bus driver in Madison makes 100k EXTRA in overtime pay by manipulating overtime rules? He's not the only one of those bus drivers, either. Rampant abuse is going on in the state prison system as well--a guy will call in sick on first shift and then go into work on 2nd shift and collect overtime pay. That is the kind of abuse and rules manipulation that is driving the anger against the unions. It's also directly affecting my tax rate. I'm having enough trouble trying to make it by in this recession. Why should I pay higher taxes and license fees (my licensure fees went up 100% this last license period!) so some union member can cheat the system? Do you think I'm going to be overly sympathetic at your measly 8% increase in your pension and healthcare contributions when it's still well below private sector increases in those equivalent contributions, and when my fees went up _100%_ to pay for the rules abuses? It's never going to get fixed until the state gov't gets some control over the collective bargaining abuses. Other state workers without public unions do quite well, WI workers will do fine, too.

On top of that, we have teachers acting incredibly irresponsibly by walking off their jobs and calling in sick to go protest, forcing schools to close, AND taking kids to the protests without parent permission. There were doctors from the UW-Madison clinic the first weekend of the protests giving out sick passes to any teacher who asked for one. In fact, they actually post-dated some of the sick passes so people could come back the next week to protest! My husband was there and actually SAW this blatant fraud. These are the same teachers who are supposed to be teaching my children about plagiarism and intellectual honesty? I was disgusted.

The teachers are warning that these cuts could hurt the children. I'd like to point out that the administrative costs for the Madison school district (for teacher/admin staff pay and benefits) is nearly twice as much as what is actually spent on each student.

The police union in Milwaukee is trying to dictate to the superintendent how many detectives he should have in the desk jobs. Shouldn't it be the Police superintendent's job to determine staffing levels?

Do I think excluding police and fire is OK? Not really, but they have to start somewhere. There's no law saying the teachers and other workers can't organize in some fashion. It just says they can't have a public employee union.

Do I think how Walker is handling it is perfect? No, it's pretty damned heavy-handed. I suppose that's a reflection of getting completely blown off by union leaders when he tried to make budget suggestions to them last November that were less draconian.

As a final note: Where the heck were all you protesters last November when it COUNTED? Voter turnout was not spectacular. You knew what Walker was all about. You saw his work in Milwaukee. You heard him clearly saying he was going to cut spending. As in, cut GOVERNMENT spending. Did you gov't workers somehow think you'd be excluded by magic? If half of you had showed up for the election like I had, you would not have had this problem. And I would not have had to contribute taxes to pay for the $7 million bucks (and climbing) in protester-caused damage to the capital building and all the extra police protection required to maintain some basic level of order. Nor would I be worrying about the safety of elected representatives at the capital later this morning. NO representative, regardless of the party, should ever have to fear for their safety. I fear the mob will become violent, and that people will get hurt. I don't want to see anyone hurt, regardless of their stance on this issue.

Edit: To the people who have sent very detailed and scary death threats to WI GOP Assembly and Senate representatives: I'm abhorred. You're worse than the problem you're trying to stop!!! All you're doing is making the Dem party look awful! I hope the Dept. of Justice finds you yesterday.

From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Thanks for pointing out that there are sleazy individuals who are in Union jobs.

Have you missed all the sleazy people outside of them? Or is it just that you prefer your bad eggs to be Union workers?

I am well aware that there are abuses in the system. So are all Union members. So is about any educated and semi-intelligent human being above the age of 18.

Yes, in the case of state employees, we are talking about your tax dollars. What percentage would you say is abusing the system? I have no raw data or figures, but my assumption is that there are the same number of d-bags that are Union workers as those outside the Union. That percentage may be scarily high, but it is by no means a majority, and I would go so far as to say it is in the vast MINORITY of both Union and non-Union workers. The truth is, most people are mostly honest, and have consciences that prevent them from raping the system. The others should be prosecuted, and so if it would please Walker or Jae, I put up the motion that Union members in State employ be held under the same scrutiny that those in the public sector are put to. Find the wingnuts and rapists, and prosecute.

What you fail to mention in your post, is all of the good people that are getting hosed through this, and the potential ripple effect. If you think it is a good thing that Unions get broken... who is next on the chopping block, and/or what rights will be left for those of you in the public sector when the Unions are squashed?

I am glad I no longer live in Wisconsin.

@Tommycat: thank you for a completely unenlightening post. If you think I am unaware of what my Union dues are spent on, thanks for assuming idiocy on my part. There is an opt-out for some political spending, but not all of it. I do not love all of the Union politics, just the ones that protect my interest. My job demands a great deal physically: more, quite frankly, than 90% of American's could do, and most would choose not to regardless of the good (but far from exorbitant) pay. If I were to stay at my current "title" for more than 5 more years, I would be physically forced to find something else to do. I work 65-90 hours a week, and much of that time is spent lifting and putting down literally TONS (yes, 2000lbs x 1, 2, sometimes 3) of materials a day. Then there is the whole 1200 to 2400 amps of raw power I am harnessing, which to put in perspective: your household 2 outlet gangbox is a 15 amp circuit. That can kill you. I can be vaporized.

Is that work not worthy of some extra consideration or compensation? Is every Union job like that? No; but many are. Union jobs are often ugly or highly difficult and painful jobs that people do not want to do. There should be somebody watching our backs.

Being a Madison resident for part of the year, I've been down at the capital a few times. Its rediculous what the protestors have done. Why the planted palm trees and began fighting each other. Just kidding, thats fox news.
I was a moderate before the election. Now I'm a staunch democrat. I don't know a single moderate who would dare vote republican in the next few years. Walker has absolutely revolted me with his statements. He seems to think that us hundreds of thousands of protestors aren't voters. Thats funny, becuase I know for a fact that I voted for Barret. Which I believe makes me a voter. Along with the thousands of others there. After the illegal passing of the collective bargining bill, tens of thousands of protestors were at the capital within an hour. It takes over an hour to get to Madison from out of state. So I question, how are they not voters. Does Wisconsin not hire Wisconsin residents for its public employees? Because if they do, those are voters. I have yet to hear of a single Scott Walker event that hasn't been overcome by hundreds if not thousands of protestors while his supporters come in groups of 10. But the protestors aren't voters. Now even the police have abandoned him. They've left the capital.
But I guess that's what we get for letting a want to be dictator who was kicked out of college lead our state.

"Everyone that posts here is aware of the game, thanks though." ET
"It is Lucasarts"~ LordJhredmo

Well, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out in the end. But seriously.....how was it reallly illegal? Even if you want to argue some kind of arcane "24 hour" technicality, the dems didn't have enough people in the legislature to stop them from passing the modified legislation anyway. If he can't produce results in the end, he'll be a one term governor. As to the number of "protestors" turning out in droves....it'd be interesting to see how many of them are carpet-baggers (ie out of state "rent-a-mobs").

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

Well, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out in the end. But seriously.....how was it reallly illegal? Even if you want to argue some kind of arcane "24 hour" technicality, the dems didn't have enough people in the legislature to stop them from passing the modified legislation anyway. If he can't produce results in the end, he'll be a one term governor. As to the number of "protestors" turning out in droves....it'd be interesting to see how many of them are carpet-baggers (ie out of state "rent-a-mobs").

I would say a low percentage. Speaking from personal experience, nearly every education major or major related to education in any way, in addition to droves of actual employees. If you want to hear a nice and personal story, my friend might have to drop out of college thanks to these benefits. Both of his parents are public employees and the pay cuts and benefit cuts are probably going to put an end to his college fund. And he already works and is still having issues. But hey, uneducated simpletons are great for business.

"Everyone that posts here is aware of the game, thanks though." ET
"It is Lucasarts"~ LordJhredmo

The evil union carpetbaggers and scalawags are taking advantage of the poor and powerless populace and trying to solidify their powerbase...it's so obvious, why don't you all see it?

Yeah, only the most virtuous of people w/good intentions belong to unions. How could we forget that.

Quote:

If you want to hear a nice and personal story, my friend might have to drop out of college thanks to these benefits. Both of his parents are public employees and the pay cuts and benefit cuts are probably going to put an end to his college fund. And he already works and is still having issues. But hey, uneducated simpletons are great for business.

While I would agree with you that cuts have consequences, why should govt employees be exempt fom sacrifices that wrack the private sector, esp when public employees are funded by tax dollars?

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

Given that collective bargaining isn't a natural right, and isn't even universal (ie not all levels of govt have it anyway) why is it even necessary? Given all the different govt bureaucracies from the EEOC to OSHA and beyond, public unions and (apparently)unlimited/expansive collective bargaining seems superfluous. Perhaps for a lot of people it's ultimately a tax issue. The more "rights" (esp w/respect to pensions and salaries&benefits) govt workers accrue, the more expensive govt becomes and the higher the tax rates necessary to support that system.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

If you want to hear a nice and personal story, my friend might have to drop out of college thanks to these benefits. Both of his parents are public employees and the pay cuts and benefit cuts are probably going to put an end to his college fund. And he already works and is still having issues. But hey, uneducated simpletons are great for business.

Hmmm Yeah.. I guess you're right. I mean having your parents pay for your college is the ONLY way to get a college education. I mean it's not like there are grants to help people attend college. And it's not like there are student loans that he could apply for to attend college. He must have an education paid for by his parents like everyone else who attends college.

And it's not like there's a tax break for college funds... Heck he might even think about going to a cheaper local college. But I guess when you are using other people's money, who cares how much it costs...

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

I would say a low percentage. Speaking from personal experience, nearly every education major or major related to education in any way, in addition to droves of actual employees. If you want to hear a nice and personal story, my friend might have to drop out of college thanks to these benefits. Both of his parents are public employees and the pay cuts and benefit cuts are probably going to put an end to his college fund. And he already works and is still having issues. But hey, uneducated simpletons are great for business.

Ahh Man! You mean I could've used my parents hard earned money they made for a living, to pay for my education, instead of getting Pell Grants and Stundent Loans. Damnit! Why didn't I think of that?

Given that collective bargaining isn't a natural right, and isn't even universal (ie not all levels of govt have it anyway) why is it even necessary? Given all the different govt bureaucracies from the EEOC to OSHA and beyond, public unions and (apparently)unlimited/expansive collective bargaining seems superfluous. Perhaps for a lot of people it's ultimately a tax issue. The more "rights" (esp w/respect to pensions and salaries&benefits) govt workers accrue, the more expensive govt becomes and the higher the tax rates necessary to support that system.

Because denying workers the ability to collectively bargain allows the government to set the price of labor and the government has a monopoly on the labor market. And to change that we'd need a massive influx of private sector growth and/or the elimination a large number of the jobs in this country.

Also, if the government is this massive bureaucracy you claim it to be, shouldn't citizens at least be able to organize a defense against it underpaying them? Or is big government okay when it comes to paying the employees of the largest employer in the country?

"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite

Because denying workers the ability to collectively bargain allows the government to set the price of labor and the government has a monopoly on the labor market. And to change that we'd need a massive influx of private sector growth and/or the elimination a large number of the jobs in this country.

Also, if the government is this massive bureaucracy you claim it to be, shouldn't citizens at least be able to organize a defense against it underpaying them? Or is big government okay when it comes to paying the employees of the largest employer in the country?

But they can still collectively bargain for pay raises. Just not above the increase of inflation. And they still have other protections. Also, if they feel they are treated unfairly by the government, they should try out the private sector for a while. Unions are still able to do all of the bargaining they want there. AND they can even go on strike. Government workers cannot.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

Both of his parents are public employees and the pay cuts and benefit cuts are probably going to put an end to his college fund. And he already works and is still having issues. But hey, uneducated simpletons are great for business.

Please. I put myself through college. I received a couple scholarships, yes, but that only went as far as books for a few semesters. I worked 20 hours a week on campus, and 10 a week off campus. I'm still paying back the student loans. I worked off campus while I was in doctor school, too. We all make sacrifices for the things we think are important.

My parents didn't give me a darn thing. Why? They didn't have a cushy state job that provided them 100% of their pension and health care so they didn't have the money for it. Asking those parents to contribute 8% or so to their health care and pension? Sorry, I'm not feeling terribly sorry for them when I've effectively taken the same or larger pay cut because I haven't received a raise in my private sector job in 4 years. It's not an unreasonable request to ask every state employee to start contributing SOMETHING to their pensions and health care so that I don't have to pay the 4th highest tax rate in the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawathehutt

I have yet to hear of a single Scott Walker event that hasn't been overcome by hundreds if not thousands of protestors while his supporters come in groups of 10.

Try thousands. My hubby was _at_ the protests. Not surprisingly, WI media focused on the protestors and not the supporters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawathehutt

Now even the police have abandoned him. They've left the capital.

So, you're saying they've abandoned their post and effectively have gone on strike illegally? So they let people break into the capital, walk all over union state workers' desks, destroy stuff in the capital, and superglue legislators' doors shut. How mature and honorable of them.

From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Please. I put myself through college. I received a couple scholarships, yes, but that only went as far as books for a few semesters. I worked 20 hours a week on campus, and 10 a week off campus. I'm still paying back the student loans. I worked off campus while I was in doctor school, too. We all make sacrifices for the things we think are important.

You and others, like me, paid for most of their college education. I agree with this... although I think if anyone is raping state budgets, it is the State University systems.... Talk about ridiculous pay raises above the inflation line, provided in large part by the state government and even more so by the incredible price gouging and collusion with creditors on the part of Universities to the financial crush of the students. These kids are paying WAY more than we did to go to school... and I still owe $17k in loans, for a degree I have never earned a red cent from. I also imagine, Dr. Onasi, that you earned a decent wage at your jobs while as a student - doctors generally do pretty well financially. Did the taxes you paid to the state gov ruin your chance of getting a new Cayenne. Forgive me for not crying about your tax punishment. You made a good choice, got a good education, and now likely make a great living. These are all good things; why the bitterness towards the 90% that make beans compared to the Doctors lawyers and Captains of Industry of the world? Perspective....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

My parents didn't give me a darn thing. Why? They didn't have a cushy state job that provided them 100% of their pension and health care so they didn't have the money for it. Asking those parents to contribute 8% or so to their health care and pension? Sorry, I'm not feeling terribly sorry for them when I've effectively taken the same or larger pay cut because I haven't received a raise in my private sector job in 4 years. It's not an unreasonable request to ask every state employee to start contributing SOMETHING to their pensions and health care so that I don't have to pay the 4th highest tax rate in the US.

Since when is teaching 7th-12th graders a cushy job? Or protecting the citizenry from fire or foes? You are talking about the bus drivers again, and extrapolating that to all state unionized employees. That is quite an unfair bias you have there!

I agree that WI has some serious abuse in their systems, it is not unnoticed around the country, and I have known for years that the taxes paid in WI are exceedingly high. All the more reason for regulation and oversight, not for cutting off an arbitrators head arbitrarily. Yes, regulation and oversight means "big" government, a term I am growing more and more sick of. You want people to protect you and yours? That is big government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

Try thousands. My hubby was _at_ the protests. Not surprisingly, WI media focused on the protestors and not the supporters.

I don't watch the news much anymore, I listen on talk radio, as most people know it has a generally high right-bias. They talked about the great number of protesters as well... could be sensationalist journalism, or maybe it was just the facts of the matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

So, you're saying they've abandoned their post and effectively have gone on strike illegally? So they let people break into the capital, walk all over union state workers' desks, destroy stuff in the capital, and superglue legislators' doors shut. How mature and honorable of them.

You cannot have it both ways. Those "(im)mature and (dis)honorable people have put their life on the line for the people of the state many times over. Now they are getting hosed royally, especially in light of their significant help in getting Walker elected, likely thinking there would be a benefit to it. That is politics. So is striking when you are getting screwed.

I find it interesting that no one has quoted or responded to my last post. Perhaps it is because the tone was a little angry or defensive; or perhaps you cannot argue those points?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommycat

...if they feel they are treated unfairly by the government, they should try out the private sector for a while...

Because it is so much HARDER in the REAL world . There is just one world, there are jobs in both sectors that are great and that suck. What exactly are you trying to say?

Since when is teaching 7th-12th graders a cushy job? Or protecting the citizenry from fire or foes? You are talking about the bus drivers again, and extrapolating that to all state unionized employees. That is quite an unfair bias you have there!

Not having to work until you die and the ability to get medical treatment without paying out the ass = Cushy

also i heard the state pays for teachers to have eyes wide shut orgies in the gym after school

"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite

Thanks for pointing out that there are sleazy individuals who are in Union jobs.
Have you missed all the sleazy people outside of them? Or is it just that you prefer your bad eggs to be Union workers?
I am well aware that there are abuses in the system. So are all Union members. So is about any educated and semi-intelligent human being above the age of 18.

Fair enough. I don't believe anyone here has said otherwise, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QGG

Yes, in the case of state employees, we are talking about your tax dollars. What percentage would you say is abusing the system? I have no raw data or figures, but my assumption is that there are the same number of d-bags that are Union workers as those outside the Union. That percentage may be scarily high, but it is by no means a majority, and I would go so far as to say it is in the vast MINORITY of both Union and non-Union workers. The truth is, most people are mostly honest, and have consciences that prevent them from raping the system. The others should be prosecuted, and so if it would please Walker or Jae, I put up the motion that Union members in State employ be held under the same scrutiny that those in the public sector are put to. Find the wingnuts and rapists, and prosecute.

Not necessarily unfair speculation. Might be interesting to find out the exact # of d-bags in all groups that get govt $$.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QGG

What you fail to mention in your post, is all of the good people that are getting hosed through this, and the potential ripple effect. If you think it is a good thing that Unions get broken... who is next on the chopping block, and/or what rights will be left for those of you in the public sector when the Unions are squashed?

Seems a bit hyperbolic. Govt unions aren't being squashed so much as reined in b/c we're talking about tax money in a bad economy. Federal workers can't bargain over compensation either and can't even strike, but I don't know of anyone swearing off working in the federal govt b/c of that. Hell, it's benefits are being used as a kind of yardstick on the whole Obamacare thing.

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Originally Posted by QGG

I am glad I no longer live in Wisconsin.

Glad I've never lived there.

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Originally Posted by QGG

... although I think if anyone is raping state budgets, it is the State University systems.... Talk about ridiculous pay raises above the inflation line, provided in large part by the state government and even more so by the incredible price gouging and collusion with creditors on the part of Universities to the financial crush of the students. These kids are paying WAY more than we did to go to school... and I still owe $17k in loans, for a degree I have never earned a red cent from.......

I'd say that even private univ are at fault too, though the exorbitant cost of a college education is no excuse for people who later skip out on repaying their loans. However, that said, universities could take a major haircut in funding. Have always found distasteful the gap in the % increase year-on-year between tuition and inflation costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QGG

You cannot have it both ways. Those "(im)mature and (dis)honorable people have put their life on the line for the people of the state many times over. Now they are getting hosed royally, especially in light of their significant help in getting Walker elected, likely thinking there would be a benefit to it. That is politics. So is striking when you are getting screwed.

Was under impression that cops and firemen were excluded from the cuts. Still, doesn't excuse cops from not doing their jobs. You think soldiers (talk about risk out of proportion to compensation) wouldn't like more $$? You don't go into govt work to get rich (at least not till you can trade off your public connections in the private sector.....legally).

Still, you've gotta admit that many of the public sector workers in WI were getting much sweeter financial dealings that they would have in most private sector jobs.

Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

Because it is so much HARDER in the REAL world . There is just one world, there are jobs in both sectors that are great and that suck. What exactly are you trying to say?

It is MUCH harder to get a pay raise in the private sector. In the private sector, you don't get NEAR the benefits of government work. And lets face it, if you underperform in the private sector, you're fired, not so with government jobs. Even here in the non-union state of AZ, it is darn near impossible to fire a bad worker. We have hundreds of state employees on "Paid Administrative Leave" because we cannot get rid of them. Government jobs are way more cushy. So really, if they think that they are getting screwed in their government job, they should try the private sector where you only get maybe a 3% merit pay raise only if you do an exceptional job. That's also dependent on if the company doesn't freeze pay. Government employees get a pay raise every year. Even now after this, they are still able to get a pay raise each year up to the level of inflation, and even if they are a crappy worker who has just done their job well enough to not get fired.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

How much larger was the largest government golden parchute compared to the largest golden parchute given in the private sector?

depends on if you include those voted into office or not... But you know darn good and well that I was talking about an "on average" thing not all. But that's so far beyond the norm, it's ludicrous to place that in the same category of where these people will be in the private sector. Management plays by different rules than us grunts.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

You and others, like me, paid for most of their college education. I agree with this... although I think if anyone is raping state budgets, it is the State University systems.... Talk about ridiculous pay raises above the inflation line, provided in large part by the state government and even more so by the incredible price gouging and collusion with creditors on the part of Universities to the financial crush of the students. These kids are paying WAY more than we did to go to school... and I still owe $17k in loans, for a degree I have never earned a red cent from.

I would agree that the increases in tuition and fees at all universities and colleges have been obscenely above inflation rates, and it's ridiculous. Of course, the universities have to pay for the new football stadiums. Sigh. However, that's another issue.

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Originally Posted by QGG

I also imagine, Dr. Onasi, that you earned a decent wage at your jobs while as a student - doctors generally do pretty well financially. Did the taxes you paid to the state gov ruin your chance of getting a new Cayenne.

Uh, no. You can't work as a doctor until you've a. graduated doctor school, b. passed national boards and any state requirements, and c. received your license from the state.

I worked as a hospital secretary off campus while in school, and on campus in the college infirmary and chemistry department. I have cleaned toilets, wiped up barf, picked pickles off the McDonald's pictures, and handed out more fries than I know. I worked as a hotel housekeeper, at a local fabric store, and at McDonald's and other fast food places, too. While I did my short stint at nursing school before deciding to go the doctor route, I had a 6 week period where I had no income until my first paycheck as a hospital secretary came in and no money left because I had to buy textbooks. I lived on ramen noodles and peanut butter sandwiches, or just plain nothing, for 6 weeks until I got that first paycheck.

I'm paying off my student loans for the next 20 years of a 30 year loan. I drive an 11 year old minivan with 110,000 miles on it that we bought used a few years ago after an uninsured driver ran into our 8 year old minivan. Our other car is a 7 year old Civic with 190,000 miles on it. You probably have a better car than I do because you don't have to pay high taxes in your new state.

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Originally Posted by QGG

Forgive me for not crying about your tax punishment. You made a good choice, got a good education, and now likely make a great living. These are all good things; why the bitterness towards the 90% that make beans compared to the Doctors lawyers and Captains of Industry of the world? Perspective....

Because I'm tired of people assuming that because I make more than minimum wage, I should be funding their butts to the hilt for them. I accept that I'm going to pay more in taxes. When Obama talked about universal healthcare, I wasn't an idiot about it. I knew it was going to hit me a lot harder in taxes than a lot of others. I voted for him anyway knowing that because I think the concept is worth that much. However, when it's at the point where it costs me more at the end of the year to work full time than it does part time because the obscenely higher taxes and daycare expenses chew up that much more of my pay, there's something seriously wrong with the tax system here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QGG

Since when is teaching 7th-12th graders a cushy job? Or protecting the citizenry from fire or foes? You are talking about the bus drivers again, and extrapolating that to all state unionized employees. That is quite an unfair bias you have there!

Let's see. Police and Fire were specifically excluded from Walker's plan so you can't include them. Most of the people complaining are teachers. You spend 7 hours (less including lunch and the times when they're in gym, art, music, etc) with 25 13-to18-year-olds. You speak to them. Theoretically you help them learn. You review pieces of paper they turn in. You work 180 days of the 365 day year. You get all weekends off, summers off, never have to work major holidays, and you're done at 3pm or whenever school lets out. Pretty decent job to me, unless it's inner-city Chicago, but Chicago isn't in WI so that doesn't count. Other state workers? They get 4 weeks off, pay and benefits that exceed their private sector counterparts, never work weekends unless their in jobs that require 24 hour coverage, never work holidays, and don't even have to practice good customer service, although to their credit a number of them do try.

Even my job has more risk--I can pick up a lot of annoying communicable diseases and a few deadly diseases if I don't protect myself correctly. I work weekends and holidays. And yes, I've actually had to step in and break up a couple fights in my office when we had a couple of whacked out patients go beserk. Those have been the only times when I thought I'd have to use my taekwondo skills for real while waiting for the police to arrive. >.<

Guess what? That bus driver made 3 times more than I did that one year by screwing over the system. Yeah, my degree has taken me really far in today's economy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QGG

I agree that WI has some serious abuse in their systems, it is not unnoticed around the country, and I have known for years that the taxes paid in WI are exceedingly high. All the more reason for regulation and oversight, not for cutting off an arbitrators head arbitrarily. Yes, regulation and oversight means "big" government, a term I am growing more and more sick of. You want people to protect you and yours? That is big government.

Well, no one's been willing to address the problem so far. While Walker's plan is exceedingly heavy handed, I give him kudos for at least trying to solve the problem. Doyle didn't have the guts to do it because the unions had him paid off so much he couldn't even if he wanted to. I voted for Doyle, and by the end of his term I was so disgusted by his utter inaction on major problems affecting our state gov't I could hardly stand reading the news anymore.

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Originally Posted by QGG

I don't watch the news much anymore, I listen on talk radio, as most people know it has a generally high right-bias. They talked about the great number of protesters as well... could be sensationalist journalism, or maybe it was just the facts of the matter.

I was listening to Milwaukee talk radio on several channels and watching the coverage. I guarantee you the radio stations didn't talk about a 'few dozen' protesters. They talked about thousands. It was a fascinating study in the differences between TV and radio coverage and who/how/what they covered, but that's another issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QGG

You cannot have it both ways. Those "(im)mature and (dis)honorable people have put their life on the line for the people of the state many times over. Now they are getting hosed royally, especially in light of their significant help in getting Walker elected, likely thinking there would be a benefit to it. That is politics. So is striking when you are getting screwed.

I sure as heck can. Walker was elected into that position. He was doing what the people elected him to do. Would I go glue doors shut in the capital if a Democrat OR a Republican was doing something I didn't like? Heck, no. I'm more mature and honorable than that. I'm not going to break into the damn building and walk all over someone's desk to go protest. I'd work on the next election campaign to find someone I thought was better for the job.

And police abandoning their posts? ZERO excuse for that. They are required to be on the job and protect ALL people, whether or not they agree with them philosophically. I have to treat people whether or not I agree with them politically or philosophically. If the police walked off the job and left one single person unprotected because they didn't like what Walker did, (especially since Walker left police OUT of the union changes!), then every single one of those officers should be FIRED. IMMEDIATELY.

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Originally Posted by QGG

I find it interesting that no one has quoted or responded to my last post. Perhaps it is because the tone was a little angry or defensive;

This. There's no point in answering venting comments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QGG

Because it is so much HARDER in the REAL world . There is just one world, there are jobs in both sectors that are great and that suck. What exactly are you trying to say?

So, if that's the case, then why aren't public sector employees in WI paying ANYTHING into their pensions and healthcare, like private sector employees are? Why aren't they even WILLING to address the blatant abuses?

From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Of course, the universities have to pay for the new football stadiums. Sigh. However, that's another issue.

Jae just how much does the football program at a major university (such as Ohio State, Texas or Michigan) take away from the schools general fund? Be honest. Now if you are completely honest then you would know it is nothing, zilch, nada, zilch, zip…. Now if you want to rephrase the remark to athletics in general then I would tend to agree, but major college football television contracts and the donations to the universe receives because of football to the athletic fund adds to the general fund instead of subtracting from it.

Gross Revenues 2008 to 2009 school year.
Ohio State $68.19 million Texas $87.5 million

Football Expense 2008 to 2009 school year
Ohio State $32.3 million Texas $ 22.5 million

Football Profit 2008 to 2009 school year

Ohio State $35.89 million Texas $65.00 million

Georgia $45.38 million
Florida $43.29 million
Penn State $42.63 million
LSU $39.14 million
Notre Dame $38.18 million
Alabama $38.16 million
Nebraska $37.29 million
South Carolina $37.23 million

If you can't tell Ohio State grosses the 2nd most, but 10th in profits because they spend so much more than everyone else. Still it is not taking away from the general fund.

Jae just how much does the football program at a major university (such as Ohio State, Texas or Michigan) take away from the schools general fund? Be honest. Now if you are completely honest then you would know it is nothing, zilch, nada, zilch, zip…. Now if you want to rephrase the remark to athletics in general then I would tend to agree, but major college football television contracts and the donations to the universe receives because of football to the athletic fund adds to the general fund instead of subtracting from it.

Actually, very little money is actually MADE from even the biggest college football programs. Revenues are huge, but the expenses associated with running a college progam are almost just as big. People need to realize that college athletics are not created to make money.

It's impossible for someone to calculate the donations to the school based on what was for a football program or just a general donation, so those numbers shouldn't be included into the equation.

Also, I should point out that hardly ever is tuition increased because of a new stadium. For big colleges, the state/city usually gets involved with funding part of it with the remainder of the cost coming from the sale of bonds to investors/alumni.

Jae just how much does the football program at a major university (such as Ohio State, Texas or Michigan) take away from the schools general fund? Be honest. Now if you are completely honest then you would know it is nothing, zilch, nada, zilch, zip…. Now if you want to rephrase the remark to athletics in general then I would tend to agree, but major college football television contracts and the donations to the universe receives because of football to the athletic fund adds to the general fund instead of subtracting from it.

Gross Revenues 2008 to 2009 school year.
Ohio State $68.19 million Texas $87.5 million

Football Expense 2008 to 2009 school year
Ohio State $32.3 million Texas $ 22.5 million

Football Profit 2008 to 2009 school year

Ohio State $35.89 million Texas $65.00 million

Georgia $45.38 million
Florida $43.29 million
Penn State $42.63 million
LSU $39.14 million
Notre Dame $38.18 million
Alabama $38.16 million
Nebraska $37.29 million
South Carolina $37.23 million

If you can't tell Ohio State grosses the 2nd most, but 10th in profits because they spend so much more than everyone else. Still it is not taking away from the general fund.

Thank you for this post. Football funds most of the other sports programs, thus we have funding for all of the Title IX athletics that are worthy in their goal, but are a giant vacuum for revenue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

Uh, no. You can't work as a doctor until you've a. graduated doctor school, b. passed national boards and any state requirements, and c. received your license from the state.

I was not pretending that you could practice medicine without achieving your a,b and c. I also know many medical students land some pretty solid jobs while at university, due either to their connections or their potential, or their brilliance. Sorry you flipped burgers, but so did I and many others. I also did other nasty jobs, just like you.

As for the car I drive and the taxes I pay in my current home state.... You can always bail out of Wisconsin! I know many people that are heartbroken at the thought, but are seriously considering it.

As for what is wrong with your tax system locally, I agree there is something horribly wrong. Why are all Public Sector employees equally held accountable for this, when it appears that you specifically point out the bus drivers, and I cannot argue that they are overpaid bloated pigs. My friend the Veteran's Home Food Director makes far less than they do, works harder, and is watching his cooks bail on him because they cannot feed a family on the new wage scale. Is he equally guilty of abusing the system, or is he and his staff a victim of bad policy?

I was under the belief that the Cops and Fireman bailed on the system because Walker reneged on that portion of their special deal. If that is a mistake on my part, I apologize and tend to agree with you. If they were reneged on, I then reinstate my belief that what they did was right. The government is supposed to be "by the people, for the people" and what Walker did is far less than that. It is our responsibility to ACT (or not act) when the Government is hosing us - it is what the founding fathers wanted expressly.

Your assessment of teacher's in secondary education is a little lacking perhaps in experience or perspective. My mother was an English teacher for many years, my Grandmother taught school in a one-room schoolhouse for much of her younger life until teaching in "modern" schools until retirement. Both of those women worked many, many hours at home, which you might consider their just reward for having the spring and summer break. Whether that is right or not, you grossly underestimate how much personal time the teachers of your children do or will spend on the education and betterment of your children. Whether they are succeeding or no is a totally different question, but to simply say they have a cake job is just wrong. And BTW, is Milwaukee some sort of Utopia? I think it is just about as rough as Chicago, and has equally nasty corners.

As to my venting, a mirror might be a good thing to look at. I am not saying you are wrong to vent, but if you are venting less than I am, I am a monkey's Uncle.

As to what Darth Dan 012 said about collective bargaining, you have misquoted or mistaken his words. I believe, although he was not specific, that he was talking about the typical Republican darling, Ronald "The Gipper" Reagan. Search for his 1980 speech to the Polish people... and you will understand Dan's statement. Whether it is a real "human right" or not is debatable, but again you are telling the forum what should and should not be, rather than making an argument. Is that fair?

Actually, very little money is actually MADE from even the biggest college football programs.

What do you consider very little money? 65 million or 35.89 million? I guess it all depends on what you consider "very little money" or what you consider "biggest college football programs." By my definition of both, I will stand by my remarks.

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Originally Posted by urluckyday

It's impossible for someone to calculate the donations to the school based on what was for a football program or just a general donation, so those numbers shouldn't be included into the equation.

It would seem something easily calculated, at least to the two universities and one Junior college I contribute to. The little check mark next to the amount tells the school you want the money to go to be it athletics or academics. I give to academics at the other two schools, but I give to athletic department at the University of Texas so I can get tickets to away football games. (for the record I don't give to the athletic department at the other two schools mainly because they don't have a athletic department.)