At the moment, I'm acting as the technical reviewer for 2 books and co-authoring another as well as being contracted full-time, I don't have the time to be here notching up points.

Is that a status?

I think the the question about the reward system, status and possible intentions why someone answers questions is academic and not practical. It seems to me that opinions about the forum software, the reward system and the thing about "ace" is quite biased. If "guru" does not mean anything to you or someone else, does "ace"? Would I reject it, I don't, would you? I guess not, otherwise you probably wouldn't suggest someone else. I doubt very much that someone can become "guru" by giving stupid answers.

Apparently one of the criteria to become an "ace" is to demonstrate to help others for the sake of helping and not for the status quo, in other words, a samaritan. That's fine with me, although I think it is not very realistic, and also unfair. In my opinion, the forum should reward facts, the more objective the better, and not judge people by personal mind reading. How a reward is perceived or appreciated, whether a "thank you" or "status icon" is more important should not be the issue, and is simply someone's taste - luckily, we do not all have the same. Personally I like to help others, and I can say that I have made new experiences here in these forums, which I appreciate, but appreciation and reward is something that needs to continue in order for it to be fun and not turn into frustration.

That's because it's ****.

Seem the reason was that I was looged on to "my oracle support" under a different name, and returning to the forum used that login.

The one who really benefits the most from all of us here is Oracle, and Oracle is a business. It's nothing more, nothing less.

Fine with me, I don't care. I'm not addicted to the forums, yet. What about your Guru status, does that mean anything?

Not a question about being addicted to OTN forums specifically - but to sharing information and helping one another. If OTN wasn't here it would have been Usenet, mailing lists or some other web forum.

I have been doing this since pre-internet days on Fido and RelayNet . A lot of guys here I know from the "old days" (mid 90's) from Usenet's comp.databases.* groups (even Tom hanged out there before starting <i>asktom.oracle.com</i>). And after over a decade, many of them are still around and still talking and sharing and helping out on what interest them professionally.

That's too much mind reading for me. Can you get a lot of points with stupid answers?

Some do score points with less than correct answers. My issue with the points has however never been about the actual scoring of points. It is what some poor guy (or gal) in the future, looking for an answer, will read and interpret when running across a thread - and read a posting marked as the "correct answer" when it is not.

It is not necessarily about status, but appreciation, and I don't think that's wrong. If someone doesn't care about their forum statistics, why not ignore it? Perhaps there could be an option in each user profile whether or not to hide personal forum statistics and icon. One can also stay anonymous, if one wishes to do so.

It is not about personal statistics for me. That ace symbol was kind of an accident and not something that I looked for. And I dislike the word "+guru+" being used within information technology and think it inappropriate here.

The basic problems with these IMO are: a) for some points/status/glory is exactly what matters primarily and not the learning/sharing/helping part - that is their goal for being here; b) to others, those are the symbols they use to judge a posting by - instead of looking at the contents of the posting and judging it by that.

I have been seeing plenty of posts in these forums that I would consider cynical or rude, and in my perception its always coming from people who have been making n unusual amount of posts. Perhaps there is a certain level of frustration and indifference growing towards questions and suggestions with the number of posts.

You will find this in most, if not all, on-line "technical assistance" communities.

Anyway, I'm not trying to force any change or convince anybody, but if someone asks my opinion....

I find it difficult to believe that someones hunt for personal profile will be successful without providing helpful answers. And find the statement that people receive scores for incorrect answers disgraceful and don't think it is the norm. Perhaps it is possible, but than over time I imagine the ratio between the number of posts and number points should reflect that, and the forum icon is the easiest way to spot.

Personally, I really don't care why someone provides good and valuable answers here. I don't like cynical answers, patronizing, and don't need someones mind reading abilities. I crossed out my previous post because I don't want to argue about this subject on a personal level. I think it is strange that a reward system is perceived as a meaningless and stupid status system, but to decorate an answer with glorious IT history or achievement is not. The only facts I have about someone here are the reward system and forum statistics. I hope that Oracle finds ways to make the reward system more interesting and to keep frequent helpful posters in a good mood.

Btw, I'm glad the OTN forum allows to edit a message after posting - after all this is public and google can find it, and I like the clear interface of the forum software. The only reason why I ever had a duplicate post, so far, was that the system or browser appeared frozen and I posted again in another browser window, or by hitting the save message button again because of slow response time.

>
I think it is strange that a reward system is perceived as a meaningless and stupid status system, but to decorate an answer with glorious IT history or achievement is not
>
Reading my reply back, I get your point. I was wrong to put that in there, I was merely trying to say that I'm busy. Someone who is not so busy, may find themselfves better placed to go point hunting on here.
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And find the statement that people receive scores for incorrect answers disgraceful
>
I agree, I do not think it is the norm but it does happen. I think what Billy was saying is that the system allows for these things to happen and, when it does, it could be to the detriment of the next person reading that thread (they've searched for something and an answer is documented as 'correct' when it may be far from it).
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I hope that Oracle finds ways to make the reward system more interesting and to keep frequent helpful posters in a good mood
>
I think most of them generally are in a good mood, but the odd comment or aside can be misconstrued when typed out and mistaken for cynicism. I think that's just part of the nature of a public forum (in the same way that I try to avoid communicating by text message, as my meaning is is often lost - they don't always see the wry smile!).

Anyway, can we kiss and make up now, can't be bothered battling on a Monday! :)

I find it difficult to believe that someones hunt for personal profile will be successful without providing helpful answers.

That does not stop some thinking that "guru" status is some form of extreme honour and pursuing it - like Superstar's comments in {message:id=4386945}

And find the statement that people receive scores for incorrect answers disgraceful and don't think it is the norm. Perhaps it is possible, but than over time I imagine the ratio between the number of posts and number points should reflect that, and the forum icon is the easiest way to spot.

Simple example - we still get problems posted with sample code that uses an if condition to commit every 100 or so rows processed. This is wrong on a couple of levels. However, the myth that this solves redo space issues still persist. What's more, once in a while some poster will actually suggest this as the solution to a mass update problem.

Some issues are technically a lot more complex than this (like datablock sizes) - and it can be difficult at times reading a thread and sort out the fluff from the substance in it.

Exactly. In the same vein then, why even bother with a flawed scoring/points system when OTN for many years functioned perfectly well without it?

The only facts I have about someone here are the reward system and forum statistics.

Nope, there's a far better measure to use IMO. The contents of their postings. You get to know which posters have mad Oracle or programming or XML or SQL skillz... and you keep a keen eye on threads that they participate in as you are more likely than not going to learn something. And there's no reward system or postings stats needed. :-)

I hope that Oracle finds ways to make the reward system more interesting and to keep frequent helpful posters in a good mood.

I think the way a poster asks his/her question and the details provided, plays a large role in how regular forum members approach the thread. It does for me...

I don't have a problem with people being happy to have become a Guru superstar, why do you? Does it put the correctness or value of a persons answer in a different light. Living and let live. If someone is pursuing Ace or Guru status, let them, or does this smaller someone else's noble efforts? You got your Ace by surprise, if I remember you correctly saying this, and you don't understand people who are hunting for a score, right? It can easily be perceived or misunderstood that you belittle others, when putting your statements into relation.

If users value wrong questions, or problems repeat because of wrong answers, perhaps Oracle should find a way to fix this, e.g. Forum moderator and making Oracle more intuitive and easier to understand product.

When I wrote that I really don't care why someone provides answers here, it's just that I will leave it up to the poster whether or not an answer was made in an attempt to hunt for a score or not, I don't care. Why bother about the reward system? An answer that was given because of a score is not necessarily or more likely going to be an incorrect answer, and I would rather not want to loose any of those answers by loosing posters because the reward system is removed. Apparently some people may say, yes, let's get rid of the score hunters to make this forum a better place. To me this sounds like a call for an elite group, wrapped in nice and noble papers.

(I was logged into My oracle support again to see if my new CSI works. that's why 804777 again - changed the name but it will take a while to update.)

Edited by: 804777 on Oct 25, 2010 6:13 AM

Do you think that improving the reward system, or providing more reward options will increase the amount of spammers or can it improve the quality of forum answers?
On the other hand, when removing the reward system and forum statistics, will it increase the quality of forum answers and limit the amount of spammers?

804777 wrote:
I don't have a problem with people being happy to have become a Guru superstar, why do you?

Try re-reading the thread Billy pointed to. It wasn't an issue with people being happy at getting their Guru turnip/parsnip (call it what you will), it was the comment made by user "super star" that he "WILL become guru" as though that is his purpose for being on the forums (and quite frankly that's the style that's been demonstrated too).

Does it put the correctness or value of a persons answer in a different light. Living and let live. If someone is pursuing Ace or Guru status, let them, or does this smaller someone else's noble efforts? You got your Ace by surprise, if I remember you correctly saying this, and you don't understand people who are hunting for a score, right? It can easily be perceived or misunderstood that you belittle others, when putting your statements into relation.

That doesn't make sense. If someone gets a status just from doing what they're doing by helping, then all fine and good. If however, they're using the forums, just to try and get points and show off to their mates that they've achieved a "Guru turnip" but they've done so by posting cr4p answers and/or demanding points from OPs without really demonstrating that they are skilled in what they are doing, then that cannot be right in anybody's eyes except their own. It's not a case of belittling anyone, it's a case of trying to keep the chaff off the forums and allow threads to contain good answers and sensible discussions that people can learn from, rather than being cluttered by useless answers posted as quickly as possible without explanation just to gain points.

If users value wrong questions, or problems repeat because of wrong answers, perhaps Oracle should find a way to fix this, e.g. Forum moderator and making Oracle more intuitive and easier to understand product.

Some users just don't know, especially if they are new to it and are told by the person "This is the correct way, give me points". Yes it would be good to have a moderator, or to allow users to take back points they've awarded so they can re-allocate them as they find there are indeed better answers, or to allow peer pointing ala Amazon styley.

When I wrote that I really don't care why someone provides answers here, it's just that I will leave it up to the poster whether or not an answer was made in an attempt to hunt for a score or not, I don't care. Why bother about the reward system? An answer that was given because of a score is not necessarily or more likely going to be an incorrect answer, and I would rather not want to loose any of those answers by loosing posters because the reward system is removed. Apparently some people may say, yes, let's get rid of the score hunters to make this forum a better place. To me this sounds like a call for an elite group, wrapped in nice and noble papers.

No, not an elite group, it doesn't matter if people are new to Oracle, learning as they go along, as long as they are doing there best and answering honestly and happy to listen to those who can correct them and thus learn from that. The problem is just those out to make hundreds of quicky posts for points without the real intention of truly being helpful. It's more to do with suppressing their ego's.

Do you think that improving the reward system, or providing more reward options will increase the amount of spammers or can it improve the quality of forum answers?

Not sure it'll make much difference to spammers, but it could certainly improve the quality of forum answers especially if peer pointing were able to discredit any sh!te from a thread.

804777 wrote:
I don't have a problem with people being happy to have become a Guru superstar, why do you? Does it put the correctness or value of a persons answer in a different light.

It's not that people can't be happy to become a Guru (I was; it meant I got my golden turnip back!) that's the problem, it's the constant "Mark my answer as correct please!". As if by getting a high enough score they really and truly do become a Guru. That's not the case; I remain convinced that it's how other people treat you that count, not how you advertise yourself.

I could go around saying "Hey, I'm a Guru now, respect mah authority!" but I don't because a) I don't consider myself anywhere near knowledgable enough to even come close to it, and b) it's annoying to other people if I proclaim how excellent I am every time I say something. Please note that giving past experience in relation to your ability to answer a question is not the same as decrying how much of an expert you are; it's providing context.

Living and let live. If someone is pursuing Ace or Guru status, let them, or does this smaller someone else's noble efforts? You got your Ace by surprise, if I remember you correctly saying this, and you don't understand people who are hunting for a score, right? It can easily be perceived or misunderstood that you belittle others, when putting your statements into relation.

And taking it the other way round, people hunting for points could be (are?) seen as diminishing the efforts of those who genuinely earnt them.

When I wrote that I really don't care why someone provides answers here, it's just that I will leave it up to the poster whether or not an answer was made in an attempt to hunt for a score or not, I don't care. Why bother about the reward system? An answer that was given because of a score is not necessarily or more likely going to be an incorrect answer, and I would rather not want to loose any of those answers by loosing posters because the reward system is removed. Apparently some people may say, yes, let's get rid of the score hunters to make this forum a better place. To me that's just another group call for an "elite" wrapped in nice/noble papers.

The problem with score-hunting answers is that they very much just answer the question asked, without questioning why the OP wants to do it that way. A true expert questions - why do you want to do that?, why do you think doing it like that is the way to go?, what if you tried it this way?, what are your actual requirements? etc etc. The OP learns more from this type of answer than if the answer was just handed to them on a spoon. It forces them to consider things that might otherwise never have occurred to them.

804777 wrote:
I don't have a problem with people being happy to have become a Guru superstar, why do you?

I think it relevant to question the motives of why a person participates. Is it about actually helping posters with their problems.. or not? If not.. that begs the question as to what the actual motives are when the forum is specifically dedicated to assist people with their issues.

Does it put the correctness or value of a persons answer in a different light. Living and let live.

No. As I've said numerous times, I believe that the only thing that should matter here is the contents of a posting. No whether you are so-called Oracle guru or ace or author or whatever. If this was up for voting, I would vote to turn off all symbols, scores and number of postings on OTN forum - as that should never be used to determine the accuracy and correctness of a posting.

If users value wrong questions, or problems repeat because of wrong answers, perhaps Oracle should find a way to fix this, e.g. Forum moderator and making Oracle more intuitive and easier to understand product.

Hehehe... with about 221 manuals listed under Oracle 11g database documentation, I doubt that Oracle is a simplistic product that is always easy to understand. :-)

Billy Verreynne wrote:
I believe that the only thing that should matter here is the contents of a posting. No whether you are so-called Oracle guru or ace or author or whatever.

Amen!

If this was up for voting, I would vote to turn off all symbols, scores and number of postings on OTN forum - as that should never be used to determine the accuracy and correctness of a posting.

Much as I'd miss my golden turnip (not because of status or owt, I just like it's little cheery icon-ness!) I have to agree with you. Not so sure that number of posts should be hidden though, as it can be useful as a guide to how much of a participant on the forums that person is, although perhaps it ought to be shown per forum (ie. my post count on the Database General forum is going to be closer to single figures than it is on the SQL & PL/SQL forum).

That's all fine with me, I see it the same way, but it seems to me that these bad examples are not the norm. Wouldn't it be better to address those individuals, than to question the whole system?

Billy Verreynne wrote:
I think it relevant to question the motives of why a person participates. Is it about actually helping posters with their problems.. or not?

and....

No. As I've said numerous times, I believe that the only thing that should matter here is the contents of a posting.

So correct me if I'm wrong, this boils down to "someone who provides correct answers and has the "right" motives too". Do you know where they sell such crystalballs?

I would vote to turn off all symbols, scores and number of postings on OTN forum - as that should never be used to determine the accuracy and correctness of a posting.

So let's say someone with a more fancy icon get's the score because the answer is perceived as being correct. Is it generally more likely the answer is correct, yes or no?
Let's say there all the fancy stuff goes away and it's just message content? How do you know which answer is correct - the one that brags the most about someones background?

804777 wrote:
That's all fine with me, I see it the same way, but it seems to me that these bad examples are not the norm. Wouldn't it be better to address those individuals, than to question the whole system?

It seems to me they are becoming the norm with a bullet (that's a term from radio ratings that means a song is becoming more popular). So I say no, the system is the cause.

>

Billy Verreynne wrote:
I think it relevant to question the motives of why a person participates. Is it about actually helping posters with their problems.. or not?

and....

No. As I've said numerous times, I believe that the only thing that should matter here is the contents of a posting.

So correct me if I'm wrong, this boils down to "someone who provides correct answers and has the "right" motives too". Do you know where they sell such crystalballs?

People who follow the postings over time interpret the motives. This can be way off, I know I've been surprised at judgments people have made of my motives. That's my own fault for not being clear enough, of course. On the other hand, I've been faulted in opposite directions for similar posts made at nearly the same time. I find that humorous. You just have to remember, the words you put out may have quite different meanings to the people or nutcases on the other side of the screen. So a crystal ball isn't necessary, you must assume a range of interpretation, from exactly right to insane. [url http://carymillsap.blogspot.com/2010/10/agile-is-not-dirty-word.html]Am I insane?

>

I would vote to turn off all symbols, scores and number of postings on OTN forum - as that should never be used to determine the accuracy and correctness of a posting.

So let's say someone with a more fancy icon get's the score because the answer is perceived as being correct. Is it generally more likely the answer is correct, yes or no?
Let's say there all the fancy stuff goes away and it's just message content? How do you know which answer is correct - the one that brags the most about someones background?

Of course, we've had people who loudly brag about their background, just get shot down, and still have to correct all the people who point towards incorrect answers on their website. We continually have newbies come in and post lousy questions, which bring out lousier answers. Silly as it is, I still want to have my registration date show up and how many posts I've made, even if it makes me sound like "you kids get off my lawn" and I haven't made all that many posts here.

This issue is fundamental and there is no one good answer. The fora reflect the members and the social norms that evolve. All we can do is try to influence things towards the good, and avoid obvious systemic errors. To me it is obvious that: moderation should be as quiet as possible, else legitimate claims of cabal arise; large numbers of newbies will always be entering and need guidance towards social norms; there will be a vast range of experience; points systems and other arbitrary ratings are more of a distraction than a help for determining technical validity; Ace awards are only as good as the range of deep experience each person has, and can be misleading when they go beyond that; some people truly are gurus, but they are on a long tail of the curve; and people can learn and improve.

Hey, even Nobel prize winners can be idiots when they go beyond their area of expertise. Just look at the guy who invented the transistor.

It seems to me they are becoming the norm with a bullet (that's a term from radio ratings that means a song is becoming more popular). So I say no, the system is the cause.

Would you also consider demographic factors, meaning the number of people surfing the internet without a technical background and what we consider common sense has increased?

What about setting more incentive for people to close their posts and give feedback? I wonder if this could limit the need of people to ask for points and help to avoid spreading the "disease". I think feedback from an OP should be encouraged, and is not too much to ask for. It can also be considered a good etiquette to provide a summary and final conclusion at the end of a post, before closing. This would also help others searching for solutions.

What surprises me, although not really, is that there are repeated questions over and over again. I actually keep a document with a bunch of standard answers. I was actually wondering about putting together some sort of FAQ and redirect OP's to specific questions to find answers, but I'm not sure where to put it.

I hope Billy is not upset about my reply. He actually gave me my very first star and as silly as that may sound, I was a little proud of it.