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Topic Review (Newest First)

07-18-2013 11:22 PM

tidewaterv

Re: 2011/2012 Used Boat Pricing

buying any boat sight unseen is entering fools paradise....pictures tell you very little..brokers even less...owners it depends..WHY IS IT FORSALE? is sometimes a better measure..is it being sailed..or deserted...many owners overprice yacht..are also looking for responsible new owners...can be very reasonable on price or terms when get talking with you...age often factor for sale..and new owner as an acceptable new user...its not all money...these are often the overmaintained yachts which no expense has been to much.

@Mike, talking to tire kickers and people with nothing better to do but window shop is part of the price of doing business. Yes, it's annoying, but you won't get around it. Just as putting an ad on Craigslist is effective, but, you have to constantly weed out the scammers an weirdos, that is the cost of doing business on Craigslist.

I agree Rob. And I have no problem with tire-kickers. After all, that's how the process begins. It's the folks who clearly haven't taken the time to do the most basic of research that tick me off. It's a waste of their time, and of mine.

I should say that most people who do contact me have been conscience and well researched about our boat. When I was buying (as I did recently, hence the sale of the old boat), I would always gather as much info as I could about a boat prior to making contact. If I contacted the seller it was b/c I was intrigued enough to want more info. I could then ask focused questions that would let me take the next step: either kick the boat of my list, or step up to the next level of investigation.

12-18-2011 11:54 AM

RobGallagher

Questions I ask the broker before wasting any more of my own time;
1. Is there a survey I can see?
2. Are the photos I'm looking at recent?
3. Are their any issues that must be disclosed to me?

Some owners will survey their boat prior to putting it up for sale. This avoids any surprises at closing.

Some brokers will knowingly post old photos on YachtWorld.com I recently looked at a boat with an asking price of 40K. The broker sold the boat to the current owner and used the exact same ad 10 years later.

When I decided to put my boat on the marker three years ago I went to the broker who sold me the boat because I thought they where great. That salesman was gone so I went with another at the same office. Guess what? He pulled my old ad from YachtWorld and posted it. When I called to complain he added new pictures and information, BUT it was still the same ad, he just updated it.

@Mike, talking to tire kickers and people with nothing better to do but window shop is part of the price of doing business. Yes, it's annoying, but you won't get around it. Just as putting an ad on Craigslist is effective, but, you have to constantly weed out the scammers an weirdos, that is the cost of doing business on Craigslist.

As a buyer, I always asked for a previous survey. I don't see this as an unreasonable request. Yes, it has value, but so does everything else on the boat you're trying to sell. I happily hand it over to serious buyers b/c I want them to know as much about the boat as possible.

As a seller, I try to anticipate all the questions a buyer might have, but as James Wilson says, I haven't anticipated them all. I also suffer from owner's-delusion: where we all think our boat is the prettiest, best, most wonderful boat out there (a fact witnessed every time people get into a "No! Mine is best" fight here on SailNet). This is why I ask for, and offer, the survey.

We may both have to re-read to see "who's on first". But I think we both said exactly the same thing.

The question of the monetary value of the survey only come in when the buyer pays to get one, turns the boat down and the seller then wants a copy. No way. Not for free.

This is true when the seller is asking a buyer for a copy of their survey. It has value and the seller is not entitled to it for free, particulalrly when they would only care for it if the deal falls through.

On the other hand, if the seller already has one, it isn't a terrible place to start and the seller may want you to see it, if then think it will keep you from doing your own. Of course, you should have your own. A seller may then refuse to give it to you as it will simply become the baseline on which the next surveyor begins to look for discrepancies.

As a buyer, I always asked for a previous survey. I don't see this as an unreasonable request. Yes, it has value, but so does everything else on the boat you're trying to sell. I happily hand it over to serious buyers b/c I want them to know as much about the boat as possible.

As a seller, I try to anticipate all the questions a buyer might have, but as James Wilson says, I haven't anticipated them all. I also suffer from owner's-delusion: where we all think our boat is the prettiest, best, most wonderful boat out there (a fact witnessed every time people get into a "No! Mine is best" fight here on SailNet). This is why I ask for, and offer, the survey.

Sure, the seller knows the condition of the boat better than anyone else, so I want the seller to make written representations about the condition and his knowledge of the condition before I spend money in reliance on his representations inspecting it.

If it turns out the seller was misrepresenting the condition, then the seller would be liable for the costs of discovering those misrepresentations, i.e., the haul out and marine survey, travel costs, etc.

In fact, if the buyer takes this posture, the dishonest sellers/brokers will refuse to deal with the buyer at the outset, and the buyer saves himself from the costs of a purchase fiasco.

A prime example of this recently was the buyer who bought an expensive boat with extensive keel/hull damage from a grounding - a grounding that was so severe that the seller, or one of his agents, must have known about it.

Some would say "buyer beware"; I say "fraud". When discovered, the seller should reimburse the buyer's damages. The buyer would likely have no recourse against the seller with the standard broker's contract because of the way it is structured and because the boat is sold "as is", so the buyer is out all of his costs due to a dishonest seller/broker.

Unfortunately, this isn't practical. I know you are trying to contain fraud, but a seller could unwittingly become liable for the buyers costs when discrepancies are found that they were truly unaware of. In fact, I've never heard of a survey with zero discrepancies and typically there are one or two that a non-technical owner has been unaware of. Certainly, one should not find obvious problems. How often have you returned to your boat to find a problem that wasn't previously known? Way too frequent for me to agree to sign what you are looking for. If I told you everything worked last I knew, I would not be defrauding you.

The best way to avoid wasting survey dollars is to do the best you can with your own personal inspection first. I always say to look for the story. Was she used frequently? Raced? Cleaned? Look for deferred maintenance. Many deferred items probably suggest a careless owner or one that couldn't afford to maintain her correctly. Research common issues with the make/model and go looking for them yourself.

No offense, but the issues a buyer should ask about are not disclosed in your ad. You do not say anything useful about the condition (for which you could be held liable). You list the specifications and describe the layout - general information any knowledgeable buyer can find on the internet.

How is your particular boat different from the standard model? What have you done to it? How has it been improved? What are the problem areas you corrected or remedied?

No offense , but you're sounding a bit like one of those annoying buyers who wastes everyone's time. Apparently you didn't read the ad. There is a whole page specifically on upgrades and a complete inventory list in answer to your questions "what has been done, what has been improved, and age of sales (sic)." There are targeted photos of areas which say something about the structural integrity. Do they answer all questions? No, which is why a discussion with the me, the owner, is the very first step. I even state clearly our latest survey is available. I want to answer people's questions. I want an informed buyer. I just don't want to waste my time with people who won't even do the basics like read the website.

How about lightning strike (no), fallen off its cradle (no), ever been in salt water (no), been dismasted (no), dropped by the crane (no)...

You're right, I don't cover all possible questions or all possible scenarios. It's impossible to anticipate all questions, which is why I said I (and most sellers) are more than happy to answer any and all questions about the boat. Just don't waste my (and your) time asking things that are already easily made available.

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