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Topic: Challenging Angels & Demons (Read 3956 times)

I have numerous debates with a Christian family member on Facebook. He writes a blog and I feel duty bound to refute his stuff as other members of my family and friends read his stuff.

His latest posts are about how he believes the devil, demons and angels actively fight over his and everyone else's lives. I mean physically fight over our lives. To knock this back I've taken to replying to him in advance with flight details I'm about to take (I fly a lot) and challenge any supernatural deity to knock my airliner out the sky (I don't post them until about a day before I fly in case some human nut-case decides to try and bring me down!).

He's lately mentioned about how he's known people that have died due to demonic influence and knows people that have stuff regularly 'moved around' in their houses at night. I said I'd happily spend a night in any haunted house.

But this got me thinking. I'd consider myself an ardent atheist. Now to me, that means no supernatural stuff. No realm of the undead, no ghosts. I take this view because I cannot see how the undead could be powered, how they would interact with this life, etc. But there are many people that have claimed to have had an encounter with the living dead. Obviously this doesn't mean it actually happened, and I'm aware of several theories such as low frequency vibration causing feelings of dread. But I'm also aware that I don't know everything in the universe.

So, to atheists; would you have any problems staying a night alone in a reputedly haunted place, something along the lines of the Amityville house (yes, I know about allegations of faking, but some similar place!)? Would you happily challenge any supernatural deity to mess with your aircraft as you step on-board?

To theists; am I endangering myself by challenging god, the devil, demons or angels to knock my plane out the sky? Or for solo danger, to challenge them to knock me off my motorcycle on a particular date during a pre-notified route?

I'd sleep in a "haunted house" without hesitation as long as I didn't actually have to swipe away spiderwebs and listen to creaking doors all night. Those are very real reasons to get less sleep than usual. But no, houses claimed as haunted to do not scare me. Nor does challenging god to knock me off while I'm on my next plane ride, or, if the gods want to, give me a heart attack as I stack firewood, which I will be doings in just a little while. Which would be a bit nicer since there would be no other victims, but that's never been an issue for the religious before, so it's not worth my time to suggest they be moral while they fuck up the world.

I don't think that there have been any angels and demons fighting over me. First of all, I'm not worth the effort, and secondly, if they have, it has been very casually, which means that they are more lackadaisical than I am. That does not bode well for the spirit world. I could probably be bought for under 100K, but nobody has ever offered. Which means not only are they not fighting over me, but that I'm also not worth a relatively paltry sum of money (in the spirit world economy).

And I'm the only one who moves things around in my house. Except for my car keys, but that is a known natural phenomenon.

The delusions of others are not contagious unless you are willing to let them be. When people sound crazy, pay attention to the realities they are avoiding, not the ones they are making up.

My college is having a seminar on ghost hunting soon that I thought of attending if it didn't cost money to attend.

I had a group of friends try to show me that their belief in spirits and demons were real. I wound up sitting in the middle of a field by myself for a half hour looking at the moon waiting for something to happen as my friends watched from a distance. I snuck a flashlight in a pocket just in case this was some prank. But after the half hour I was asked to wait I went back and told them nothing happened. No voices or sudden cold breezes or invisible force pulling on my shirt.

They told me that they did battle with demons on a regular basis but when I started asking questions I got a lot of stammering and uhhhhhs. I asked why they used crappy mall quality swords when they had access to guns. If demons were so physically powerful why did they never have a casualty on their side or a demon corpse to show off. I called them a bunch of assholes when they said how dangerous demons could be. My town could have been terrorized by beasts and they took it upon themselves to be the sole protectors. Why did they never notify the police or government or even the "professional" supernatural hunters? They seemed to be the only few people who even knew these demons were around. How convenient.

I have numerous debates with a Christian family member on Facebook. He writes a blog and I feel duty bound to refute his stuff as other members of my family and friends read his stuff.

His latest posts are about how he believes the devil, demons and angels actively fight over his and everyone else's lives. I mean physically fight over our lives. [...]

Maybe this is a phase he is going through. Is he under some sort of stress? Some people, when they have no answers, leap at the first bullshit that comes to mind.

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He's lately mentioned about how he's known people that have died due to demonic influence and knows people that have stuff regularly 'moved around' in their houses at night.

Coincidentally, a friend of mine, a highly qualified engineer who is know not to have a lot of imagination, told me a story about how he had had a supernatural experience involving a ghost. I explained what had happened but he ignored this and continued that he had seen a cleric who had advised that "rooms have memories." (I suspect the cleric had actually said, "Some people say that rooms have memories." so as to divert my friend away from this superstition.)

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But this got me thinking. I'd consider myself an ardent atheist. Now to me, that means no supernatural stuff. No realm of the undead, no ghosts. I take this view because I cannot see how the undead could be powered, how they would interact with this life, etc.

:thumbsup:

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But there are many people that have claimed to have had an encounter with the living dead. Obviously this doesn't mean it actually happened, and I'm aware of several theories such as low frequency vibration causing feelings of dread. But I'm also aware that I don't know everything in the universe.

Just above, you have correctly explained why there is no such thing as "the undead." Stick to that. The rest of the universe is so far away that they'd never get here.

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So, to atheists; would you have any problems staying a night alone in a reputedly haunted place?

I've stayed in some strange places in my time. Why should being alone make any difference to the malevolent hordes of demons? I don't think that they only have to appear to people on their own - but then I haven't read their union rules recently. That said, being anywhere on your own for a long while with minimum sensory input does play with your mind. (Remember those tanks of brine in which people relaxed whilst white noise played in their ears? People had strange experiences in them.)

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Would you happily challenge any supernatural deity to mess with your aircraft as you step on-board?

I remember being on a very small boat about a mile from land when a storm kicked off (a fishing trip). We had all had a bit to drink and so we called upon Neptune to destroy the boat. You can see by the fact I am typing that Neptune, like God, doesn't seem to respond to anything we mortals say.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Good point about being alone Graybeard and having the mind play tricks. I'd already considered setting up a webcam covering the room and facing the entrance door if I ever get asked to stay in a ghost room, just to supplement my brain!

I probably mentioned this story once before but it is worth repeating. Thirty years ago, a lady I worked withkept telling me how her husband was encountering this UFO which followed him along a country road as he wason his way to work. This took place about 4 in the morning. She said it followed him along a wooded, rural road.She finally convinced me there was something to this story so my brother, sister, friend and myself went out there on a Friday evening in search of this UFO.

So, we went out to this area and parked about midnight waiting for the sucker to come along. After several hours,I looked to the East and saw this bright light hovering above the horizon. As I stared at it, I swear I saw it coming closer and moving up and down and all around. I screamed: "There it is! It's coming toward us!" My companionsjerked around to see this sight and they all became instant believers. They all saw this bright light dancing aroundin the sky. My brother jumped into his pickup, turned it around, and flashed his lights on and off to this UFO so itwould make contact. After five minutes of hysterics, we began to realize that it wasn't moving...it wasn't coming any closer. It turned out to be Venus which had just arisen over the Horizon while we had been joking and talking. My friend's husband, going to work at 4 in the morning, had seen this bright light through the trees and swore it was moving along with him down the road.

Ghosts? Moving objects in a house? By god, I've never seen such things but I did see a UFO one night, thirty years ago, for a few minutes. If you want demons badly enough, by god, you'll sense them. If you want a ghost and haunted house, by god I guarantee you, you'll see something move on its own.......

It's a well known fact that sensory input of an unknown nature will be interpreted by the individual as something familiar/expected. If there's a strange noise in a house, what you think it is will depend largely on your state of mind/expectations. Religious-minded folks might assume it's an angel, or the voice of gawd. Monster hunters will likely suspect demons or other beasties. Those of us who eschew superstition will probably assume a natural explanation, like the wind or the house settling.

Same thing happens with seeing holy images in trees, clouds, toast (Grilled Cheesus for example), when they're not really there.

I'd have no problem sleeping in a reputedly haunted house, and I'd laugh at whomever challenged me in the AM. And I'd do it rudely and condescendingly.

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...religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash...anyone who doesn't show...deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

~Astreja

To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place.

Nearly 30 years ago, I spent a night in a local haunted house. It was a deserted old place in the woods - typical story - old guy who killed his family and such. Well known tales of ghost, but mostly a place high schoolers hung out to sip booze and swap DNA.

Bottom line, nothing happened despite tipsy teens who wanted something to appear. I spent another night later with a chickenshit friend who heard a lot of sounds but still nothing real.

Would sleep in any haunted house/etc any time. NOT trying to sound like a tough guy, it is just all BS IMHO

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving their god is. - neopagan

So, to atheists; would you have any problems staying a night alone in a reputedly haunted place, something along the lines of the Amityville house (yes, I know about allegations of faking, but some similar place!)? Would you happily challenge any supernatural deity to mess with your aircraft as you step on-board?

To be honest with you, I am definitely an atheist and a non-believer of "dead apes who interact with this world".

But, for some reason, when I spend the night in a building(which is at least 99.9% of the time), the perceived age of the building does make a difference on how afraid I am of ghosts coming to attack or at least spook the fuck out of me. The best explanation that I can come up with is that we have a fear that is evolutionarily embedded in us to fear the dark and/or being alone. I will, even as a vocal atheist, tell you that if I spend the night alone in a creaky-ass house that was built in 1889, I will be significantly more afraid of ghosts than I will be spending the night alone in my house that was built in 1983.

Once again, I do not believe in ghosts in my rational everyday life. But, when I stayed with a friend who had a creaky-ass house that was built in the 1920's, my fear would consist of, I will guess, about 90% ghosts and 10% unwelcome imaginary physical intruders.

Like I said, the best explanation that I can come up with is that we have a fear that is evolutionarily embedded in us to fear the dark and/or being alone. Combine that primeval fear with our modern intelligence and imagination, and my guess is that you get a spooked ape like me who thinks he is rational.

Do any of you atheists here have any similar messed-up quirks that defy rationalism?

Like I said, the best explanation that I can come up with is that we have a fear that is evolutionarily embedded in us to fear the dark and/or being alone. Combine that primeval fear with our modern intelligence and imagination, and my guess is that you get a spooked ape like me who thinks he is rational.

Do any of you atheists here have any similar messed-up quirks that defy rationalism?

I quite agree. Intellectually, I know it's all baloney. But that doesn't stop me from wanting the lights on after watching Paranormal Activity or whatever.

^^^Likewise. It doesn't take much to inspire fear in me under certain conditions; just the memory of certain horror stories I read decades ago is enough to make me shudder. I have seen movies that had me covering my eyes while friends beside me yawned and made disparaging remarks (at my reaction as well as the film).

Rational thought is difficult enough while one is unstressed; when instinctual fight / flight is in play, it's a rare individual who can suppress those reactions and think. I'm not one of them.

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Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.--Marcus Aurelius

I love it--I would have thought all you (us) hardcore atheists would be strutting around all fearless in the face of a dark and spooky house. I was nervous to say that, yeah, I would be spooked in that situation even though I know ghosts don't exist.

I have noticed that the two times I wrote about my and my wife's experiences with the "supernatural", not one person here has challenged me or remarked on them.

I wonder what that means?

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People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe. Max Bazenman, Harvard University