Steorn's perpetual motion claims are extraordinary. They've raised millions from investors, and 2007 is the year that this will all change the world or Steorn will fall apart. Which will it be? Find out here first.

It sounds like EarthTech International was in the running to be part of the Jury. We know that they were eventually not selected, but Marissa must have played a role in dealing with Steorn's jury process. So the question still remains, what state is the Jury in today? Are they being strung along, or have they been given unlimited access to Steorn's claims? Have any of the members of the Jury replicated Steorn's experiments? We're all in the dark for now.

I don't know, but it is a reasonable guess to say they don't have anything to do. If what I saw at the demo is anything to go by, no device has ever existed for the jury to see. Given nothing to judge, there is no point in pretending the jury has any meaning.

So I guess I'm glad I never got into the jury - I've already seen more than they have!

According to drmike, Sean told him the jury had not seen a device. That means, I take it, that after 6 months they are still studying the material about orbo that Steorn gave them, which seems like a long time, and haven't had enough curiosity to build a device, or if they tried, haven't been able to build one. Steorn must have given them plans for an orbo, assuming they were interested in building one, so it is hard to understand why they have not yet seen one.

>Steorn must have given them plans for an orbo,>assuming they were interested in building one,>so it is hard to understand why they have not yet>seen one.

No sensible jury member is going to attempt to construct a free energy machine from a set of plans. That's the oldest trick in the pseudoscientist's arsenal.

If someone was foolish enough to try it, and the Orbo didn't work, Steorn would just say "Oh, you must have made a mistake in the construction. Ours works fine." Then the jury member would spend weeks or months going back and forth with Steorn trying to fix the supposed problem until he finally gave up in disgust.

Furthermore, for the sake of argument, suppose the Orbo really did work. Then from Steorn's point of view, they'd be equally foolish to hand out the plans to jury members. Suppose all of the plans had an error in them; then all of the jury members would wind up building non-functional devices, and declare the Orbo a fraud. Why would Steorn take a chance on that happening?

The only fair and reasonable way to test an extraordinary invention is for the inventor to supply a working version of the device for examination. If Steorn has a set of plans, then clearly they must have a working device from which those plans were created, no? So why not let the jurors examine the actual Orbo?

The answer, of course, is that a working Orbo doesn't exist. Assuming the jury was real, and Steorn wanted to string them along as long as possible, then handing out nonsensical technical papers and construction plans might be one way to delay the inevitable. But I doubt that any smart scientist or engineer would play such a pointless game with Steorn for very long.

@drmikeI tend to believe you statement 100% drmike, but what I don't understand is that if the whole jury procedure is a farce, then why hasn't anyone on the jury become fed up and leaked anything. It wouldn't be hard to leak something anonymous on the internet, and if I had 6 month of BS fed to me with incorrect theories and no physical evidence, I'd leak that fact onto the net.

Someone had an interesting theory that the whole thing is some sort of bizarre documentary on over-unity scams (Hence the reason why Steorn had a documentary team around). I'm beginning to think the idea has merit, although I can't imagine anyone having a lack of ethics great enough to have people fly in on their own dime to see an intentionally failed demo.

Marissa has been involved in the testing. The SPUD have seen photos of the test rigs she has set up to detect the bump, the transition between the rotor magnet flying past the stator at high speed with no effect on the bearing and flying past at low speed with significant effect on the bearing.

There is always the possibility that Earthtec and Steorn are in bed together (for what reason one can only speculate) since the whole Earthtec team came over for the demo. Hal + family, Scott and Marissa.

Mark Twain said "the problem with fiction is that it has to make sense". What we see is something that does not make any sense. No matter how you look at it.

Fraud and hoax are fiction. What we see from Steorn is nothing. If it were some kind of psychological test it would be in violation of every ethical body on the planet.

What you see is real people making claims which can not be proven, but that they really believe. There doesn't have to be an answer to why.

As for EarthTech - they are in the free energy business. This is just a great opportunity for all of them to see London as well as a possible free energy system. I bet London was great - because the demo was a flop.

Just look for the money, everything else is part of the illusion. The jury, the demo failure, Kinetica, the videos on You Tube including the head shaving episode and the funny hat video and the marketing videos and the quarterly updates, the forums (including this one), the TV and radio interviews; they are all distractions and enticements meant to conceal the fact that Steorn is trying to steal money, most likely from the investors.

"The motor seems to need about 16mW to overcome its internal friction. 300RPM was a nice fast looking place so it needs about 42mW of power to run. A 1.5V battery would be just about right. 42mW is 3630 Joules per day so a 10 day long run would take 36300 Joules. That is the equivalent of a “C” size NiMH or Lithium battery. So the battery is “big”. Probably “too big” to hide. So you need external power for a long run. 42mA needs about #32 wire which is about 0.008 inches in diameter. It “might” be possible to hide that. Or, one could use vacuum deposited metal film or a clear film conductor like your LCD computer screen is using ;-)) That would be practically invisible.

So, look for the tiny motor first, then look for very thin wires or odd shadows, or films on the surface of the clear plastics that are carrying the power. About 40mA at 1.5V. It is unlikely that a battery could be hidden easily that could supply the power alone for 10 days."

http://tinyurl.com/2cwgq2

Notice the known fake Orbo's motor:

http://tinyurl.com/2g3k2f

And that odd thing in the real Orbo rotor:

http://tinyurl.com/2a89wt

Hmmmmm....

If anyone gets a chance to take pictures, please use the highest resolution and telephoto since we are looking for "tiny" things 8-)

About the money - if they were going to steal it, why spend a good fraction on the demo? All those posters and the space and the live feed was not cheap. A real thief would spend the money on themselves, not on advertising.

Perhaps as Vardan1899 suggests, they intended to do a demo with a motor-driven device, hoping the fraud wouldn't be spotted. Then they could collect more money longer. That would constitute "first degree" (premeditated) fraud rather than self deception.

I think at this point anything is possible. Maybe we'll know soon what Steorn was/is up to and maybe not. Look how long they've kept the circus going so far!

"LOS ANGELES, CA -- 07/16/07 -- SuperVision Entertainment Inc. (PINKSHEETS: SVET) rumors are now circulating that the inventor of the SuperMag is in line for a Nobel Prize. The SuperMag is a product that has enormous ramifications and significance for the production of electrical energy around the world, and a huge advancement for the environment. The inventor, who has already received the Gold Duke of Edinburgh's Award at Buckingham Palace in the U.K., was characteristically modest when asked about the rumors.

"My reward is sufficient in knowing that I have probably invented one of the most significant products in history and in one single move have revolutionized the energy business and the world's reliance on fossil fuels," he said. "Any recognition, such as a Nobel Prize, is icing on the cake, as well as the several billion dollars I expect to make from the SuperMag and the increase in value of my SuperVision shares," he added.

The SuperMag 10Kw commercial production unit is nearing completion, and although security is extremely tight, early leaks indicating very positive information are starting to reach the public. It is hoped that the SuperMag will be ready by late September.

Upon completion of in-house testing, the unveiling of this unique product will be held in Los Angeles in front of 5000-7000 engineers, environmentalists, scientists, investors, hedge funds, and other interested people from around the world. This will be followed by an international press conference.

The production of "The Amazing SuperMag" feature film is capturing the entire process of the building of the SuperMag and is absolutely fascinating to watch. Please reserve your copy of the DVD by contacting the company at superv0007@hotmail.com

Makes you wonder why Steorn bothers. Also, the unnamed inventor received a prize at Buckingham Palace? I wonder when that happened. Funny... they don't say! I can hardly wait for that DVD they plan to sell... I'm sure if they would be for real we'd need a DVD-- the press wouldn't cover the event because the oil companies would prevent it, right?

Amazing the stuff out there... sorry but I just HAVE to cross post this to FIZZX.

The *aborted* demo snafu bought them some time. (6 months more?) If they showed their best device and it was clearly not OU (as it certainly would not be), then the shareholders would have stepped in and said, "all right, the party's over. Fire the staff, sell the magnets, watch bearings and plexiglass, and distribute all the remaining assets to the shareholders." That's not what they want.

Now they can live high on the hog at shareholder expense for at least 6(!) more months, feeding their egos, being the center of attention, and spending nights at the pub with their fawning cult believers. At best they intent to spend every penny they currently have. At worse, there will be additional rounds of investment.

Why don't people get it? If they got it, it is *so* easy to prove: one device, clearly not drawing external power, doing some work (even a trivial amount), without stopping. Let it run for a day or two, then let skeptical engineers and physicists take it apart to be sure it was on the up and up. The fact that this is being promoted in the popular arena using PR techniques more appropriate to ipods and game cubes rather than the technical arena should be a huge clue its bogus (really! do you think IBM would be developing such a break through in this way? Assembling a validation team of rah rah housewives and "hobbists"?)

Dr. Mike was correct in saying it's either a hoax, fraud, or delusion. His strong feeling it's delusion has been taken by the cultists as proof its not a hoax or fraud, but then they discount his ability to diagnose delusion in concluding that it must then be real. The problem is, it *must* be one of those three, and so if Dr. Mike has erred about it being delusion, then he has also erred about it not being a hoax or fraud.

I'll note that delusion (of this sort) is not actionable: they can't put you in jail, they can't sue you for money. Fraud and hoax are completely different. Whatever game they are playing, the worst they can let you believe is that they are deluded. My guess is they know its a failure, but want to drag this on as long as possible. If it takes lavishing $ on fancy "demos" and appearing to seek the confirmation of "experts" (in perpetual motion machines?) by flying them in to "view" a demo in a pop-museum, so be it. Spend that cash so you can continue to spend the rest of it.

There is no jury FFS. All they did was go through a process.. They took a gazillion applications, did a lot of legwork and invited ZERO people to the jury. However because so much legwork was done people now thing "the must be a jury out there somewhere". Face it.. the heat issue at the demo trashed the hidden battery lines to the orbo motor. My guess is the conductive polymer they used cracked from the heat and broke the circuit. It took them months to build the circuit and duct tape couldn't fix it so demo = off.

Good point, DrMike. He's not going to take the money and run. McCarthy's job for the last 6-7 years has been promising stuff he can't deliver. Why would he stop now, it's been a great run for him.To him it's a legitimate profession.

Because they want to avoid fraud charges? Make it look like they're a legitamate company for a while longer?

You present it as if investment fraudsters just immediately run with the money. They're obiously not afraid to 'spend money to make money'. The amount spent on that demo and the surrounding circus was peanuts compared to the amount of investment they've recieved.

Their 'demo' doesn't prove that they're a scam but it certainly doesn't rule it out.

@drmike: "About the money - if they were going to steal it, why spend a good fraction on the demo?"

This is the 21st century--after a scam like this, you can't just pack your bags and move to the next town. There has to be a better plan to digest the investor money and not go to jail in the process. The whole idea of the demo, the forum, and so on, is to generate confusion with respect to their motives. They certainly got their money's worth flying you over to London because you declared that they "really believe" and that they're "not a hoax" and are just "deluded". This is a confidence scam--and they've reeled you in.

I guess I will take all this on this evening. There are lots of level of theif, and some like Enron can steal billions. Tillman can only steal 1000's. In every case, the theif has some level of competence. As others have pointed out who run their own business, Steorn is not competent.

"... You've been able to give your opinion of the tech, so I guess we'll hear their opinion [the "jury's"] as well... "

But Dr. Mike did not give any opinion about "the tech" because he was not shown any "tech". He wasn't allowed in before the demo and was not shown ANYTHING of ANY technology during the demo. You'd think that this alone would impress believers... but apparently not.

The censorship in the forums is getting heavier all the time. However, that doesn't distinguish between fraud or incompetence/delusion. Psychics have censored forums and the believers do the censoring. The believers are sincere, like Crank probably is-- highly misguided but sincere.

"... You've been able to give your opinion of the tech, so I guess we'll hear their opinion [the "jury's"] as well... "

But Dr. Mike did not give any opinion about "the tech" because he was not shown any "tech". +++++++++++

He was at least told, apparently, the theory behind the orbo - this was when he first agreed to come over, and, after pondering on it, and talking to some people at kinetica, he had an insight into what was wrong with the logic of the theory (I'm paraphrasing what I understood him to say in his report; I haven't checked it again).

He told Sean what was wrong, and told a bunch of people at a pub, so if they weren't all too drunk to remember, his analysis of Steorn's mistake is known to several people, so he has given an opinion of the tech.

I suggested on the steorn public forum that he email one or more members of the spdc, who are also under nda, so that they could tell other members of the spdc. He was scheduled to report to them in any case, but the debacle got in the way.

Thanks loustic! I had not seen that site-- it must be comparatively new. They didn't have a web site a few months ago. From there, this gobbledygook:

"The source of the heat energy is also abundant, inexhaustible, and universally available. This heat energy comes from our sun. The energy is absorbed by our machine and converted into mechanical energy by powering a turbine. The turbine rotates a Faraday disk in an intense magnetic field that is produced by a superconducting coil. This action produces an electrical current in the disc and that current is fed to devices outside the generating system to perform useful work.

The superconducting coil in the machine is kept below its critical temperature by the liquid nitrogen in which the coil is submerged. A persistence switch is closed to allow the current in the coil to circulate thru the coil without any external source of electrical energy. The machine is capable of producing very large electrical currents through the coil. In fact, if the coil is kept below its critical temperature, the current circulating in the coil will not diminish because there is no resistance to the flow of the current in the superconducting coil."

It sounds as if they are describing a superconducting generator. but that doesn't jibe with all the hype coming from Marketwire (a pump and dump vehicle for worthless stocks). The hype is about "overunity". Well, they promise to reveal by September -- I wonder if they will invite Dr. Mike to "bring his screwdriver" and if they will pay his way!

"The poster that was banned was an obvious clown and troll. Whatever her reasons, Crank did the right thing by getting rid of him quickly."

Sorry but I must've missed the clownish part. Could you just briefly describe it for me? I saw some restatements of claims and calls for clarification. I have to admit I didn't pay a lot of attention because a lot of the writing was poor and who was quoting what was hard to follow (as it often is on that forum). Clownish? I dunno!

Also, I was banned. I don't recall making any clownish posts-- skeptical yes, clownish no. Somehow, Magnatrix psychically deduced I was the same person as "Pennies" -- which of course I emphatically am not (nothing against her, I'm just not her)!

As to Dr. Mike being shown some sort of *description* of "the technology", you're correct but it's sort of hairsplitting. What he's been told about how Orbo works, he isn't allowed to print. And he was shown absolutely nothing that demonstrated technology. I think we agree on the facts-- maybe not on how exactly to put it.

By the way, considering all their claims, and how Dr. Mike doesn't think the "technology" is workable, how long *more* do you think it should be before Steorn actually shows a working device or if they can't, they're labelled a fraud, delusion or scam? Just curious! Thanks.

Sorry but I must've missed the clownish part. Could you just briefly describe it for me? ++++++++++++++

'Clownish' was inaccurate - he was either a troll (i.e. insincere), or mentally ill; in either case, well deserving of the boot.

+++++++++++++Also, I was banned. I don't recall making any clownish posts-- skeptical yes, clownish no. Somehow, Magnatrix psychically deduced I was the same person as "Pennies" -- which of course I emphatically am not (nothing against her, I'm just not her)!+++++++++++++

Why tell us? Take it up with Magnatrix.

+++++++++++how long *more* do you think it should be before Steorn actually shows a working device or if they can't, they're labelled a fraud, delusion or scam? Just curious! Thanks.+++++++++++

I have no deadlines to suggest.

At this point I doubt they have anything, partly because of the demo fiasco and partly because, it seems, the jury has not yet seen an orbo. Hard to believe human beings could contain, for six months, their curiosity about a world-changing device, and be satisfied with just paperwork.

Hey, I was apparently banned because it was Seans birthday. Didn't see that in the terms and conditions... It was pretty obvious a long time ago that the bans follow different rules for skeptics/non-skeptics. Remember the last time an abusive 'believer' was banned? Me neither. Just let it go - there's no shortage of other forums to discuss on (here for instance).

Can drmike describe a thought experiment showing an error in Seans physics reasoning? It'd be nice to see something specific.

reading the supermag patent, its just a generator that uses the boiling of liquid nitrogen as the energy source. They use the current through a superconductor coil (cooled with liquid nitrogen) as the source of the megnetic field, but so what. Any energy output will be less than the energy used to initially cool the nitrogen down to a liquid.

The patent certainly doesn't claim free energy (which, if it did, would have prevented it from being issued).

I did. She didn't answer my email. As to "why tell us?" -- it's because capriciously banning forum participants who disagree with the moderators is a hallmark of fraudulent operations. It's the typical modus operandi of psychic mediums who "talk to the dead", for example.

And Crank and Magnatrix would have to be in on the plot rather than just be doing what moderators do. As far as I know they have no connection with Steorn except that they are forum participants like everyone else.

"And Crank and Magnatrix would have to be in on the plot rather than just be doing what moderators do."

Why would they have to be "in on the plot"? Believers find it natural and acceptable that dissent must be suppressed. That's certainly the case with "psychic" forums where the moderators are nice, kind, and deluded people who get fiercely defensive when their "beliefs" are challenged. And the better the challenge, the angrier they get -- just as Crank and Magnatrix ban capriciously some of the most effective and sober critics rather than the most disruptive, off topic, or obscene posters.

Dr. Puthoff recently wrote an excellent paper on how to test claims of overunity -- though I think it's a bit over-elaborate for stuff like Steorn's claims. But it's important to remember that he was thoroughly bamboozled by phony psychic Uri Geller in the 1970's. Puthoff wrote a very embarassing paper in Nature magazine then. He's not shown much regret about it that I've seen.

If someone wants links to that particular farce, please make note here and I will find them.

Puthoff is a bit too "woowoowooooooooooo" for my taste. Maybe he learned something from the Geller fiasco-- maybe not enough. Anyone know for sure? I'd feel a lot better about it if somewhere he had admitted how bogus Geller is and how badly he, Puthoff, had been flummoxed.

"it is obvious why magnatrix does not let you back on the forum. I see every chance that you get, you insult her. And not just on this blog either."

Can you cite a single example of my insulting Magnatrix? Or perhaps you think telling the truth can be an insult? Anyway, show me (quote) an example of an insult-- give it your best shot.

"Crank has said several times that she is not a 'believer'."

She may have said that but if I recall correctly, she behaves like one. It's not too unusual in various sorts of con schemes for believers to claim that they are skeptical. Most don't have a clue what skeptical means. Anyway, it was Magnatrix who apparently banned me and who, without my permission, maliciously altered my profile on the Steorn forum to say that I was someone called "Pennies". Not a terribly impartial nor bright thing to do.

I don't like conversations about inconsequential personalities in forums devoted to issues so that's all I'll say about any of this. The rest will be about issues, such as they are now that the demo was totally snafu'd.

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