I'll never understand why people take pride in ignorance. Even when I was a believer, I never thought that total ignorance was a good thing, and that being smart was bad. Even though it was horrifically clouded by pseudo science, I believed it science. Some people just.... don't care though. At all. That's sad to me. What a waste of a mind.

(04-11-2012 08:50 PM)Logisch Wrote: I'll never understand why people take pride in ignorance. Even when I was a believer, I never thought that total ignorance was a good thing, and that being smart was bad. Even though it was horrifically clouded by pseudo science, I believed it science. Some people just.... don't care though. At all. That's sad to me. What a waste of a mind.

I remember being in college when my mom said, "Be careful not to gain so much knowledge that you lose your faith."

I could have probably attended a state school but I was strongly encouraged to pick an Evangelical school because its a well-known fact in Fundie circles that state universities are run by godless communists who are stealing the minds of our youth.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness
~Izel

This is what the Greek philosopher Celsus wrote in the second century when he criticised Christianity.

“For why is it an evil to have been educated, and to have studied the best opinions, and to have both the reality and appearance of wisdom? What hindrance does this offer to the knowledge of God? Why should it not rather be an assistance, and a means by which one might be better able to arrive at the truth?” (Excerpts from Contra Celsus by Origen, book 3 Chapter 59).

It's nice to be told that being smart is a bad idea, because then I don't have to try. Then I don't have to feel bad about lacking knowledge, all I have to feel is that those who *have* studied and got the knowledge are somehow the losers in this equation.

(04-11-2012 11:17 PM)morondog Wrote: It's nice to be told that being smart is a bad idea, because then I don't have to try. Then I don't have to feel bad about lacking knowledge, all I have to feel is that those who *have* studied and got the knowledge are somehow the losers in this equation.

Exactly.

And then there is the mindfuck that occurs when you first start to have doubts because you were warned that it would happen if you read anything besides the Bible.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness
~Izel

(04-11-2012 03:41 PM)kingschosen Wrote: I guess it was because of my oblivious nature towards others... lack of exposure... or just plain ignorance... but, I've been starting to notice something that you guys have been complaining about since Day 1.

It's not necessarily one thing... it's just an eclectic collection. I'm talking about the stuff that theists do or say that just make you "..."

I've always said, "Where are y'all finding these people? I've never come in contact with anyone like this."

I noticed it this morning in Sunday School. The lesson was on a believer's faith being "spoiled" per Paul in Colossians. The questioned was asked, "What are some things that can 'spoil' someone's faith and cause them to abandon it."

Someone said "knowledge". I sarcastically chuckled as I thought it was a joke; however, the rest of the class agreed. They were saying stuff like "Yeah, it seems that more smart people are atheists." and "The more education someone has the more likely they are going to abandon their faith."

They justified it by saying that the smarter people are arrogant and rely on themselves and not God.

We also had one guy say, "...and it seems like the smart people all believe in 'theory' of evolution."

I just sat there. Didn't say a word. I was sort of shocked.

How in the world could you ever shun knowledge? Or wisdom? Or science?

I know sooner or later I'm going to be chased out with torches and pitchforks. The day is coming.

Shunning knowledge or wisdom isn't really a theist vs atheist thing, though that's often how it plays out. I've lost track of the number of atheists who've accused me of worshiping a genocidal imaginary Skydaddy when they learned I was a Unitarian-Universalist, for example. Hooray for atheist knowledge. But that's on the individual atheists, not atheism at large, just like when a Christian does it it's on the individual rather than Christianity at large. (Though when enough atheists or Christians do it, it DOES turn into a forest thing rather than a trees thing, and I suppose we can debate whether that threshold's been crossed.)

You want to know why people do this? Reasons vary, but the most common is because they're spoiled. They're used to having the "right" answer handed to them and simply being told it's right. They START from the assured and unblinking premise that their worldview is right, and extrapolate from there. They're not willing to dive into arguments, evidence, or for-goodness-sake actually knowing what words mean or what opponents are actually saying. Why should they? They've already GOT The Answers, and never, ever doubt that.

On the one hand, I'm more appalled when atheists do this than when Christians do it. Because really, atheists (at least the strong segment that embrace science) should damn well know better. Christians might regard acceptance of a premise on faith as a virtue; skeptics do not. So I've got more scorn for the atheists who do this, because the hypocrisy is greater. And yet...

And yet...

I'm not on board with all the Commandments, but I do think that bearing false witness is a Bad Thing, and this? This is false witnessing. Not the "I know I'm lying but I'll say it anyway" false witness, but the "I wasn't actually there, didn't see anything, but for no good reason I think that A did B to C and I'll pretend I'm a witness to that even when I'm not" type of false witness. For example, when Christians completely mischaracterizes evolutionary theory, without ever studying it, and use that to dismiss every single proponent of it, they are bearing a false witness against those proponents. Regardless of whether they believe the mischaracterization. Because they are not actually witnesses, and yet they are falsely presenting themselves as such, and using this fraudulent status of witness to denounce another. (I leave aside Christians who DO know a lot about evolutionary theory, and accurately present it, from this condemnation.)

Why do they do this? Christians OR atheists? I'd say pride coupled with sloth. Pride, in that the status of being in the know is prestigious, and admitting ignorance is ignominious. It shouldn't be. Everyone's ignorant of something, and honesty is a virtue. Yet admitting we don't know something grates at people. Admitting it to yourself is often the hardest step, and a lot of people DON'T admit it to themselves. Very few of us possess the humility to visualize ourselves as lacking knowledge that we should have, much less the humility to admit it. That's the pride. The sloth comes in when we realize that researching this stuff enough to become a true witness to what it really says is HARD. It's hard even when you know HOW to research it, and most of us don't. The task becomes very, very intimidating when we don't know how to start, and most of us will blink in the face of the monumental task we don't know how to begin, when we've got this little voice telling us hey, we can just skim it a bit and we'll know enough to fling judgements around.

As a total aside, I think it's disgraceful the way science is taught in school. They lead with the findings, conclusions, and models. That's the results of science, but it is in no way science, and pretending it is deludes the student into believing they know about science. They should focus on the cool experiments and observations that generate the conclusions and models, because really, that's what it's all about. But no, at the primary and secondary level it's all stuff that we learn from authority. (Well, 90% of the time. When was the last time you saw anything about experiments showing osmosis in a biology textbook?) Bleh.

In any case, KC, you'll have to ask whether your integrity and morals will allow this event to stand without comment.

EDIT: Oops. Hypocrisy alert. I should have stated that the above speculation about why people do this was, well, speculation. My bad.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail