Also, I do remember him saying that it's perfectly fine to do some threshold work on hills to reduce impact stress. I don't have the book next to me at the moment, but I remember the idea of hitting the right intensity by HR in that context. I might therefore try to do 1 out of 3 Friday tempos in a hill repeat context.

I love the idea of a hill tempo if I could find a 20-30 minute hill. I guess I could drive to Mt Wachusett or somewhere north. As for hill repeats, I've always felt that tempo repeats (cruise intervals) should have short rest since you're supposedly working on keeping your lactate level high throughout the workout. Hill repeats would have a longer recovery interval than I'd like for that type of workout.

This is where Mt. TM enters the picture, I think. I loathe the very nice TM that we bought last year (DW loves it), but I might try out doing some higher-intensity running on it with it set to a ~6% incline.

Does anyone use the treadmill to train speed? I'm sure a few of you are laughing right now, but treadmill can be even better than the track to build 5k speed and do fartleks. The track allows you to slow down and speed up, while the treadmill you have to keep the exact form and pace. I find if im not the treadmill once a week my shorter distance races get slower.

I try to avoid treadmill for speed. I have realized that I am able to push myself harder on the treadmill, and last time ended up pulling a hamstring. However, I also have access to a half-sized track. With 8 laps to a mile, I can time myself very precisely.

Does anyone use the treadmill to train speed? I'm sure a few of you are laughing right now, but treadmill can be even better than the track to build 5k speed and do fartleks. The track allows you to slow down and speed up, while the treadmill you have to keep the exact form and pace. I find if im not the treadmill once a week my shorter distance races get slower.

I try to avoid treadmill for speed. I have realized that I am able to push myself harder on the treadmill, and last time ended up pulling a hamstring. However, I also have access to a half-sized track. With 8 laps to a mile, I can time myself very precisely.

Richard - I've got you on the list. 3:22 is your PR correct? Did you start your taper yet, or are you pushing through one last weekend?

Here is the list for the rest of the year. Piwi, did you change your goal? I think I forgot to update it in the craziness of my marathon and having the kid and all. If I do this next year, it's going to be a self service application...

Richard - I've got you on the list. 3:22 is your PR correct? Did you start your taper yet, or are you pushing through one last weekend?

Here is the list for the rest of the year. Piwi, did you change your goal? I think I forgot to update it in the craziness of my marathon and having the kid and all. If I do this next year, it's going to be a self service application...

Yep 3:22:07 same year one year ago. I am semi sick so forced to taper a little. I am going to run 1 more 20 miler tomorrow then taper.

Does anyone use the treadmill to train speed? I'm sure a few of you are laughing right now, but treadmill can be even better than the track to build 5k speed and do fartleks. The track allows you to slow down and speed up, while the treadmill you have to keep the exact form and pace. I find if im not the treadmill once a week my shorter distance races get slower.

I try to avoid treadmill for speed. I have realized that I am able to push myself harder on the treadmill, and last time ended up pulling a hamstring. However, I also have access to a half-sized track. With 8 laps to a mile, I can time myself very precisely.

What happened to your hamstring? How did that happen?

I guess I set the treadmill to a pace that was slightly faster than I could safely maintain. When I'm running outside, perceived effort remains constant over time even if my pace slows with time. Because the treadmill kept going at a constant pace, I kept pushing myself to match the pace. It's like when you're racing someone: you can push and push up to a point where your mind is stronger than your body.

yeah Frank put me down for a 3:05....Only tracking I can find is facebook updates to my time line at 10k 20k 30k and finish. You need to be on my friends to view so anybody keen let me know your FB page link.Time difference here well im a day ahead and its 9.30 sat morning now and 16.30 friday in NY.My race is sunday 6.10am next week.

Slammin' I'm getting a little ahead of myself with the sub 17 talk. I'm running a 5k next Sunday and it would have to be 17:2x for me to even consider sub 17 in the middle of December. I actually thought that I was 17:2x shape after my recent marathon cycle, but recent workouts have indicated otherwise. I guess I'll find out in 9 days.

Frank, That workout is very specific and pretty comprehensive. I would increase the reps and the length right away. You are essentially doing 5-8 reps after several weeks when it would be ideal to do 10-12 reps. You don't need 8 seconds anymore. You have to understand these are often simplified for the masses. You have run several marathons and are much stronger. With Hudson everything is relative so yes he warns older runners start out slowly. The low reps is to keep the runner from getting sore or hurt so he stretches it out.

You for instance will notice only a day of soreness. Trust me on this. Also stretch out the hill to 18-20 seconds. Again I emphasize you are past 8 seconds reps. I recommend only once a week, if you go twice a week it should be randomly or on feel. The rest of the runs on Tuesday seem pretty good. I would not do it all on the track change every other week to time 60 seconds as opposed to 400M. etc 4:00 as opposed to 1200M also the shorter reps can be done faster than 5K pace. I do effort mix in effort so you don't feel discourage if you are not hitting your goal times on all reps.

yeah Frank put me down for a 3:05....Only tracking I can find is facebook updates to my time line at 10k 20k 30k and finish. You need to be on my friends to view so anybody keen let me know your FB page link.Time difference here well im a day ahead and its 9.30 sat morning now and 16.30 friday in NY.My race is sunday 6.10am next week.

Are you kidding me? You and I have only a 10 minute spread. You need to be aiming for a 2:52:xx. Stop sand bagging. Stay on your pace and choose the pain. PW - you took your sweet time (as you should) to get ready, you are golden. No excuses, No retreat, No Surrender. Kill It.

Slammin' I'm getting a little ahead of myself with the sub 17 talk. I'm running a 5k next Sunday and it would have to be 17:2x for me to even consider sub 17 in the middle of December. I actually thought that I was 17:2x shape after my recent marathon cycle, but recent workouts have indicated otherwise. I guess I'll find out in 9 days.

Frank, That workout is very specific and pretty comprehensive. I would increase the reps and the length right away. You are essentially doing 5-8 reps after several weeks when it would be ideal to do 10-12 reps. You don't need 8 seconds anymore. You have to understand these are often simplified for the masses. You have run several marathons and are much stronger. With Hudson everything is relative so yes he warns older runners start out slowly. The low reps is to keep the runner from getting sore or hurt so he stretches it out.

You for instance will notice only a day of soreness. Trust me on this. Also stretch out the hill to 18-20 seconds. Again I emphasize you are past 8 seconds reps. I recommend only once a week, if you go twice a week it should be randomly or on feel. The rest of the runs on Tuesday seem pretty good. I would not do it all on the track change every other week to time 60 seconds as opposed to 400M. etc 4:00 as opposed to 1200M also the shorter reps can be done faster than 5K pace. I do effort mix in effort so you don't feel discourage if you are not hitting your goal times on all reps.

Do you have a set day when you do your hill sprints? At 8s, I take Hudson's advice and put them between the long run and the specific endurance day. At 18s, it's almost a quality day and probably should be scheduled with an extra easy day, no?

So currently:

S - Long

M - Hills

T - 3k-5k pace intervals

W - Easy

T - Easy

F - Tempo

S - Easy

Since the hills and the intervals are both neuromuscular, I'd probably split them apart. i.e.

These days I do no more than 6 hill sprints at a time, usually no more than once weekly. They're all-out on a 15% grade, about 12 secs. I get fried and/or bored beyond this. Building up you can do more, and try them twice weekly. It's easier to maintain any aspect of fitness than it is to build it in the first place.

I do the Hill sprints on Mondays, sometimes Tuesdays if I take a day off on Monday. If I race on Sunday I push the hill sprints to Wednesday or Thursday depending on if I used Monday for an easy recovery day. I am not a fan of structure. I am extremely flexible and move my days around to suit what I am accomplishing. BTW - I have not read Hudson past the second chapter so I am not sure how he does or what number of hill sprints he recommend. What I have been doing this is what I did as a 12 year old. For me it's a very easy workout that does not affect my Tuesdays. I am still able to do very fast quality on Tuesdays if needed. Again I do effort on the trail, not on the track. So my Tuesdays is about effort not speed. I do mostly time and effort.

slammin: Question on the hill sprints: how quickly can you ramp them up? I've not done them before, and Hudson has a bunch of warnings about how quickly runners over the the age of 35 should ramp up with them. I'm just about done with 2 weeks of rest after my last full, and am signed up for a 5K at the end of November to get a 5K baseline. I'm planning on following the structure from the Magill article for the next ~3 months.

Should I put off running the hill sprints until I'm a couple of weeks back into easy running? Whenever I do start, should I do them 2x per week, as Hudson suggests, or has a different frequency worked for you?

Dan,

You can start out with 8. In full disclosure, have not read Hudson past Chapter2. He thinks the way I do, so I didn't see the need to read on. His ideas were the same as my first real coach an English bloke who thought me that middle distance speed can be cultivated with hills. He had me start 8-10 hills at 95% effort as a 12 YO. If you do 8 you will experience the same soreness as you do on the first day of ski season. The soreness will be gone after three days and the second week you will be sore for a day after that you will no longer experience soreness. Start with 8 * 12 seconds on 10-12% I don't do 15% grade. every week add 2 until you get to 16.

I haven't ever dedicated workouts to hill sprints but I'm going to do some post marathon too. Most easy days I do sprint up hills to get them over with and briefly raise my HR and breathing. It helps break up steady easy runs too.

It's kind of dkgg to not double-dip and Rachel to not triple-dip but with 5 legitimate top10 threats this weekend, we could see this list go WAY down anyway. November 3rd will be fun.

ThereisnoTry: 'I haven't ever dedicated workouts to hill sprints'

I treat hill sprints as a 'free' workout - effort without pounding. I tack them on easy runs when I feel up to it, usually the day before 'proper' workouts. If I don't feel up to it them then I just don't do them. I'm not sure if this is what others do as well - but I suggest trying it just to see how badly it beats you up. The hill helps more than you might think.

LeComptable: 'Hi all

Welcome aboard. That's a wicked 10k PR. If your endurance holds up you could set a really nice marathon PR this spring. What do your usual training weeks like?

I've heard good things about the Ottawa Race Weekend. You'll have plenty of people to race when the day comes.

Runmaple and Patrick : My half was this spring, in Montreal (where I live), during the canadian half marathon championship (which of course I was not at all a containder). I trained well during the winter, about 40-45 MPW. I'm more excited about the half next week since I had better training ever I did 3 weeks in a row over 50 miles ! Which was unthinkable to me lol. And I had my 10K PR last week so I will shoot for sub 1:20 next Sunday.

Hill sprints sound like they would be good. Well, at least as good as sprinting hills can be, that is. I wonder, though, how poor Floridians like me can compensate for the lack of hills. I just hate doing things like that on treadmill or doing things like stairs, or whatever.

In other news, I ran a 53 second PR in the 8k yesterday in my 2nd to last collegiate race ever...it kind of makes my 5k PR obsolete since my 8k is now a faster pace, so I'm not putting the 5k in my signature anymore.

LeComptable, your marathon PR is just asking to be broken, I think - sub-3:00 is all but guaranteed if you train well.

I have never posted on this thread before, but have been reading it for the last month or so, with the target of getting active here and shooting for a sub-3 time next spring. However, I exceeded all my wxpectations today in the Lausanne Marathon, and broke 3 hours, with a target of 3:05, so I thought I had to get here a bit earlier than planned This is the RR I posted on the sub 3:10 forum as well:

Race review - Lausanne Marathon 2013

I'll start with some background information about my training and related information. The plan I have followed since Helsinki Marathon on Aug 17th is the Pfitz 12/55, with some weeks (3 to be exact) skipped due to there not being enough weeks between the two marathons. I have based my training intensities partly on the Pfitz book, and partly on the Daniels' running formula, using my Helsinki result as a reference. During taper and the days leading up to the race and the race itself, I implemented the nutrition strategy of Matt Fitzgeralds' New Rules book.

I woke up at 6am, despite having my alarm set at 7am. Switching to summer time meant I gained one hour, and 8 hours of sleep seems to be more than enough for me. Another reason I woke up was probably the sound of really heavy rain and even some thunder. I got dressed, had breakfast, including my last dose of the legendary beet juice, and then chilled out in my room. I even made a pace-band for my target time of 3:05! I left my room just before 9, took the metro to Lausanne city center, walked the last bit and got to the starting area at about 9:30, with the start scheduled at 10:10. The time leading up to the start were pretty uneventful (well, a couple of potty stops), but the rain was heavy enough to be a slight concern, although I in general don't mind rain at all when running, to my room-mates' amazement. A funny example of this is from just before I left this morning, when one of my room-mates had just woken up, had a look outside, and came to ask me "Mikael, is the marathon still on?"

Luckily little or no wind, which had been my main worry due to some gloomy forecasts. Temperatures were ideal, at 12-13 Celsius. So I got to the starting area feeling optimistic, a 3:05 time was definitely on the cards. My pace-band was washed to fragments though, but it didn't matter.

Km:s 1 (7:26)

I completely forgot about getting a good place in my block, probably because only about 1400 runners participate, so I still got quite close to the starting line. I noticed my mistake when during the first km I was surrounded by mainly slower runners, and didn't want to waste my powers overtaking runner's in the relative crowd all the time. I decided that it wasn't a problem, and I could make up for lost time later.

As for weather, we had some very heavy showers during the first part of the race, but no continuous rain anymore, and the rain stopped completely at about 10k (I think).

Km:s 2-10 (average 6:59, standard deviation 2 s, max 7:03, min 6:52)

After the first km, I had no problems with the crowd anymore, and could start to run freely. The second km was basically a long downill, which was nice for getting into a good pace without too much effort. I fell into my target pace quickly enough, and felt that this was probably the perfect pace for me this day. Holding the pace was for some reason much easier than usual during training, and I had very consistent lap times with very small deviations. I felt very much in control of myself and of the race, which is unusual for me, since I am a runner who like to be guided more by feeling, but I actually liked this too. There was a clear different compared to earlier races in that I didn't feel any particular rush, or higher adrenaline levels as I usually do right from the start. Probably because this time I was very sure of my fitness level, and didn't expect any real surprises.

There's a moment of panic though, when I realize I have forgot my chip! It's like a sinking sensation, and I face the fact that it will only be a training marathon for me. After a couple of km:s I ask a fellow runner to be sure, and to my great relief he tells me that the chip is included on the bib. Phew!

After the first longer downhill, we ran a few km:s in Lausanne, but pretty soon we were outside the city of Lausanne, running through small suburbs, and then along the lake of Geneva, eastbound, with beautiful, terraced vineyards on the left, and the lake on the right. There are some rolling hills throughout the race, but only one largish hill, which came during this first part of the race.

Km:s 11-17 (average 7:01, max 7:07, min 6:57)

The rain has stopped by now, and I am still in a steady, controlled and relaxed state as we run in part through small villages, in part through a completely rural landscape, dominated by the vineyards and the lake. Nothing noteworthy here really, except for the fact that at the end of the 17th km (I think) I am overtaken for pretty much the first time since km 3. The runner is a Man in Black (MB), who will be important later in my race. He's the only one around who's running at a faster or as fast a pace as me, and I follow him for a bit, but let him go, since his pace is too high for my strategy.

Km:s 18-21 (average 6:56, max 7:00, min 6:52)

We enter the city of Vevey, where the halfway point of the marathon is located. Since it is an out-and-back marathon, we meet the leading pack, and for some time I enjoy counting the runners running in the opposite direction. There's not that many of them, see! (I learnt later that my position at the HM was 128, out of about 1200 in the men overall class). This makes me feel a bit of the rush that I've been missing completely so far, although I knew it wasn't necessarily a good thing. I was very concerned about me potentially doing something really stupid, and kept telling myself to focus on my target pace. Still, these km:s were a bit faster, but I told myself that it will make up for time lost in the beginning of the race. I passed the halfway mark at 1:32:14, so a perfect setting for a 3:05 finish. By now, the sun has replaced the rain clouds, and it's even getting a bit warm, although nothing extreme.

Km:s 22-27 (average 6:50, max 6:57, min 6:44)

We're turning back through Vevey and get back out on the rolling lakeside road, and now I start to pick up the pace. I tell myself that I feel good, and that I can allow myself to go down to around 6:51, instead of my planned 7:02 pace, but not more! A marathon is 42.2 km:s, not 30, 35 or 40, and I'm well aware of that. Still I fail to meet these requirements I impose on myself on a couple of occasions, and gradually go faster and faster. I tell myself that 3:05 won't be enough for Boston qualification anyway, due to the cutoff, so let's go for a 3:03 or something!

Km:s 28-32 (average 6:40, max 6:47, min 6:28)

Finally I get the rush that I have been waiting for, and the adrenaline kicks in! I still feel really good, and continuously pass fellow runners. No-one has passed me since MB. The 28th km is fast, and I think that on a Berlin or Paris course a sub-3 finish could have been on the cards. Not on these rolling hills though. Still, a very good 3:02 or so finish is within reach, and I keep the fast pace I just happened to get into. This is where I really start to enjoy myself, and let my legs and feet guide me, and all the feelings that I've come to associate with a race are finally here. Let's make it last for the remainder of the race.

Km:s 33-37 (average 6:38, max 6:41, min 6:33)

After the fast km I have behind me, I know there is a good margin down to the 3:05 finish. At 32 km, it is easy enough to do an approximate calculation for the pace I need to keep until the finish line to get sub-3. It is 6:43, which incidentally is the exact pace I held for the previous km. But that was fast, and I'm not sure I can hold it for another 10. Besides, my calculations are based on my Garmin, and a 42 km finish, and a not a 42 point something, whatever it will be in the end when tangents are taken into account. Still, since I feel so fresh I decide to try to keep this pace for a few km:s, and maybe take the foot of the pedal if it feels too much. I'm not particularly scared of the wall anymore, I have had lots of gels and some sports drink, handled my nutrition almost to perfection, so at the very most I will bonk, and still make a decent time. I continue to update my calculations every other km (it becomes something to look forward to), and notice that my margin is growing slightly, but I am well aware of the fact that I will need this margin. after about 35 km, the promised winds that I've been dreading hit me right in the face. Great, so now I have to deal with this too. Still, I'm happy enough that it's only for 7km. That's a lot better than I expected.

Km:s 38-42.2 (average 6:32, max 6:38, min 6:17)

At 37 km, while still continuously passing tiring runners, I see one man in front of me who's still alive and kicking. It's MB, who overtook me at 17k. I am very happy that he keeps almost exactly the 6:43 pace I need, because this means I can draft a bit behind him for help. However, after another quick calculation I realize that my margins are too small. I still feel good, although I am tiring more quickly now, with the distance I've covered and the headwind, and definitely wouldn't want to miss out on sub-3 at this stage. I introduce myself to MB, and ask him if he's targeting sub-3, cause we're right on course for that. MB doesn't have a GPS-watch and has no clue, but I ask him if he wants us to help each other out to reach sub-3, and he says sure. He misunderstands my point though (he is french-speaking, and although I speak some french I speak English now), which is that we can take turns in drafting, but increases speed, and suddenly we run side-by-side. I shrug and join in on this speed though (which for a few hundred meters is crazy!), but then tell him that we should slow down, this won't hold all the way.

After this, being the one with the watch, I direct our tempo, which is higher than before I met MB, but he's still helping me just by still having the power in him to keep up. I can't want to fail now that I've told him that we can make sub-3, and this gives me the determination I need to keep this pace. We overtake more runners. With about 2 km left, we see the 3:00 pacers a few hundred meters in front of us. I stick with our pace, but this is another great boost. At the 40k mark I update MB on our progress and say that we will make it (which we are on course of doing, just). I still don't know exactly how much the extra 0.x km will affect the final time (in hindsight, I should have done the calculations for that, although it all turned out well in the end), but there is some margin which "should be enough".

We close in on the pacer's, enter the Lausanne marina area, make one final turn, and now there's just a few hundred meters left. I tell MB that "we are gonna make it, but I'll still crank up the pace a notch". He's in on it, and we get closer and closer to the pacer's. We never pass them, but get really close, and I see my Garmin showing a 2:59:xx time as I pass the finish line. I didn't check the exact time though, and don't turn press Stop until 3:00:01, and at that point I have no idea if I'm 5 seconds or 30 seconds late in doing so, and since the official time shows 3:00:19, I'm not completely sure if we actually did make it. I chat with MB though, thanks him (and he thanks me), and he tells me that he had targeted sub-3:15! Some strong running from him there!

For the first time ever after a marathon, I don't get any cramps walking through the finish area (not having to remove chips from your shoes helps!), and I feel better and fresher than I've ever done after a marathon. I'm thinking there was probably a minute or so left in my legs if I had gone just a bit faster the last 10. This nags a bit at me, since I don't know my official time, but in the end, the official time is 2:59:41, and I can, to my huge surprise, tick that off my list!

Some statistics:

1st half - 1:32:14, placement 148 (men overall, out of about 1200)

2nd half - 1:27:27, placement 19 (HM PR, have never done a real HM)

Full - 2:59:41, placement 52 (FM PR)

10k from 32-42 - 40:54, just 2 minutes from my 10k PR

I'm extremely happy with everything about the race, and looking forward to becoming more active here from now on!

LeComptable: 'RunMaple you have a heck of a marathon PR! When was that?'

Just this past Sunday. October 20th. I'm still recovering.

charlaugser: 'I ran a 53 second PR in the 8k yesterday'

And that's a nice PR too. I'm sure that speed will translate very very well when you make the switch. 3:32/km? Smokin'. If you're in sub36 10k shape then a HM PR is just a 13mi jog away.

mkerikss: That's a pretty impressive first post heh heh. Those splits are excellent - you ran a really great race. I can't believe you came in 52nd out of 1200 with a sub3 time though, I guess Swiss are more patient before moving up in distance than Americans are. It must be a great feeling setting two PRs in one day. That last 10k might have dipped under 40 minutes - yep, you're a marathoner. Sounds like a fun race.

Mo - no running

Tu - no running

We - no running

Th - 6.65mi @ 7:22/mi

Fr - no running

Sa - 6.71mi @ 7:05/mi

Su - 12.50mi @ 6:49/mi

Probably too fast today, but I'm allowed to go under 7:00 at least once a week I figure. Really happy with my recovery. I'll bring it up to 7 runs next week and hopefully 9 runs from the following week forwards. Dropping the base.

Third week over 70 for me. Feeling good. I did 3 workouts this week too. My MP run Saturday was a big confidence booster. I was 10 seconds under my MP and felt decent even on the last mile with a long uphill. Hopefully this means sub 3 is withing reach in 3 weeks. Time to start pulling back a bit from 70 mpw. I'll do the 80%, 60%, 40% taper plan.

Mikerikss : awesome job!RMR : Recover well man. Great job last week.Jacob : Good for your pain, did you change shoes ? new shoes always seem so take care of those small nagging pain in my foot.TINT : Killer runs Th and Sa!

My week. Not quite enough miles (had an unscheduled off day on Thursday... couldn't find any time to run), but still got 50 in. I've gotten 50-53 each of the last three weeks since the baby was born which I have to be happy with.

I felt good after my 200 repeats on Tuesday, first time I've gone fastish in many months. And my tempo run on Friday needed to be audibled from 3x10 min @HMP to a true threshold sequence after I ran the first 10 minutes too fast. I felt good so turned it into more of a standard cruise interval workout, trying to get 4 miles at threshold pace with short rests. Ended up with 7 laps fast, 1 lap slow, 5 laps fast, 1/2 lap slow, 4 laps fast. Fast was 6:05.

There Is No Try - That's a great week for your last week pre taper. Three marathon race specific quality days in there along with great mileage. I might need to change my prediction for you. I think you're going to knock me down one place on the list.

Maple - My god. I was barely walking a week after my marathon and you're punching out a sub 1:30 half marathon.

Jacob09: Finally. That must feel good. Are you targeting any races or just trying to get back to where you were?

ThereisnoTry: Outstanding week. Three straight impressive weeks strung together at the best possible time. There goes the hard part. You just need to make it to the starting line now. I did 18 w/ 14 four weeks out and ended up running almost exactly what I did for the MP portion of that run.

LeComptable: I don't know if you have access to a treadmill, but the running stores are usually much more forgiving with returns if you haven't taken them outside yet. I've heard other people suggest you do the first run on a treadmill for exactly this reason. (Although I don't do this either.)

Aren't 74 and 78 second laps really really different? Was that planned?

frank2000: Good stuff on the intervals. I would've written @ 5:06/mi in big bold letters, your restraint is admirable.

6:49/mi went from MP to MP+20 overnight. I can't believe it either, but I can almost justify 7:00 runs now. But yeah, 40% of my normal mileage with no quality leaves plenty in the tank.

November 4th races: Where are you guys? What are you doing with the extra 6+ hours you have this week? Sleeping? Checking the weather?

Frank: Thanks. But I can tell you unless my watch malfunctions and/or the course lacks mile markers I will not be running any faster than 6:50 pace for the first 20. If at that point I feel good I will push a little but I'm not counting on that at all. So 20 miles into the race how much can you expect to take off the clock in the last 6? Maybe 1-2 mins tops. This being only my 2nd marathon I'm not taking chances after the last fail in marathon number one. My dream is 25 miles at 6:50 and 1.2 miles at 5:30 because I feel so awesome. No way will I be touching your 2:55:58.

Maple: Thanks. Good to know the 18 w/ 14 was a good predictor for you. You destroyed it. Sub 2:50 is a different level or two than I'm on. Maybe next fall.

LeComp: Sorry to hear about your ordeal with shoes and rough running days. I'm sure Nike makes some good shoes but I've never liked the way they feel when trying them out.

I have a 10k this Saturday on the same gravel trail course I set my PR on in April. I'll be happy with a sub 38 considering a 300 mile month of October.

There is no Try - that's damn fast last pre-taper week. If you stay healthy, I don't see any problems for you going much lower than just 2:59:59 .

RunMaple - I am just saying to myself that you are much younger, that's why you can run that fast less than a week after your incredible race . Though, to tell the truth, I had no slightest desire to run the week after my marathon (still - that's probably age stuff ).

Frank - you probably make a lot of runners here just threw their plans and start working on speed . I am among those runners.

There is no try – Are you familiar with Richmond? I've lived here 8 years, in the middle of the course. Not sure (yet) if I'll be in town that weekend but let me know if you need anything. Awesome 70-mile week, by the way.