Even though polygamy is not practiced by most Christians (except for certain Mormon subgroups), there is nothing at all in the New Testament that forbids it, other than a few verses in 1 Timothy that require bishops and deacons to be men "of one wife".

The last man in good standing with the LDS church and living in a pre-manifesto church approved (but illegal) polygamous relationship is believed to have died in 1976. 20 years ago - and thats just the public ones. How many are still privately married?

How can anyone who believes that Brigham Young was a prophet of God be so sure that the Mormon polygamists are in error? If B.Y. was correct aren't those who deny the practice of polygamy risking their souls for the sake of statehood? Or has the "LDS" church managed to re-define the term "damnation" just as it has terms such as "salvation" and "Jesus Christ"?

(1) Ashley, you're a nice guy and I honestly value your friendship, nonetheless, I can not remain silent regarding this topic, but please understand that none of what I say is intended as a personal attack against you.

**people can profess anything they want, but it doesn't mean they are what they profess to be.**Exactly! Just because Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet, doesnt mean he was.

(4) but suppose this Church should give up this holy order of marriage, then would the devil, and all who are in league with him against the cause of God, rejoice that they had prevailed upon the Saints to refuse to obey one of the revelations and commandments of God to them Will the Latter-day Saints do this? No, they will not to please anybody." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 239)

(5) "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy... I heard the revelation on polygamy, and I believed it with all my heart Do you think that we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principle of polygamy? If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269)

a servant. even though people can trace their lineage back to Jesus Christ does not make them prophets. anyone practising polygamy is not a member of the church. There names are not written in the archives of the church. They are excommunicated and their names are removed. if you were catholic and switch to pentacostle. are you still catholic. NO. same thing. people can profess anything they want, but it doesn't mean they are what they profess to be.

-1-The Second Manifesto . . . is not as well known as the 1890 Manifesto. However, it is equally important, as it finally ended a period of confusion and internal struggle within Mormonism. Polygamous marriages had continued to be contracted in isolated cases, even by some bishops and stake presidents. From Mormon-polygamy.

-2-These people, known today as "Fundamentalist Mormons," still believe that polygamy is an "everlasting covenant" just as Joseph Smith had declared in Doctrine and Covenants. And they are indeed "Mormons" as they trace their historical and doctrinal roots back to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and his revelations.

A servant: you said LDS leaders do enter into polygamy. show me one from 1887 documented as fact. that is the year it was stopped so Utah could join the United States. Why, because we believe in obeying the laws of the land. too bad many christians can't say the same and drive intoxicated, murder others, steal, cheat others and fill the prisons to capacity. indulge in drugs. all contrary to the laws of the land.

In Utah today, there are an estimated 30,000 fundamentalist Mormans who still engage in polygamy. They believe that they will be barred from heaven unless they follow the covenant of polygamy set forth by Joseph Smith in 1843. The Mormans recanted their polygamy doctrine in 1890 after the U.S. Congress became so concerned about the Morman practice of polygamy that they passed the Edmund-Tucker Act, threatening to confiscate Morman property and jail its leaders.

This is why Ashley thinks all churches are the antichrist except the cult of mormonism."Whosoever... does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist...,"- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 176

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man

MMR good stuff, you just described catholic and protestant churches perfectly. of course many will deny that, but look at the history of both and you will see all of those things are taught or practised by their members openly and without remorse. Just read the blogs here and I rest my case. Gail, I am still waiting for you to answer my questions which you conveniently keep skirting the issue on. When you answer my questions, I will address yours. it is called courtesy.

Gail: all I keep hearing are things you read in anti literature books. You said you didn't know where the Hill Cumorah was. That tells me instantly you don't have a clue. If you did, you would know it is in Palmyra New York. Everyone that has ever studied the church knows that. It is one thing to study to learn truth and another to repeat gossip and falsehoods for your own glory with the express intention to deceive others. In case you didn't know, that is of satan, not God.

Why was Joseph Smith arrested for "money digging" and convicted of being a disorderly person?

He admitted to being a money digger, though he said it was never very profitable for him (History of the Church, V. 3, p. 29). He and his father's money digging continued until at least 1826. On March 20th, 1826, Joseph was arrested, brought before a judge, and charged with being a "glass-looker" and a disorderly person.

The laws at that time had what was known as the "Vagrant Act." It defined a disorderly person as one who pretended to have skill in the areas of palmistry, telling fortunes or discovering where lost goods might be found. According to court records Justice Neely determined that Joseph was guilty, though no penalty was administered, quite possibly because this was a first offense (Inventing Mormonism, Marquardt and Walters, pp. 74-75).

Why is it that LDS books describe proposed Book of Mormon locations for cities and the "narrow neck of land"?

No city has been identified as being Nephite, Lamanite, Jaredite, etc. For example, Zarahemla was occupied for hundreds of years, but we still don't have any real evidence of it ever existing. The Book of Mormon describes a time period from 2000 BC to 400 AD and millions of people. No city they occupied has yet to be found.

Where was the Hill Cumorah? Was it in New York or Central America? If it was in Central America, why hasn't it been found? If it was in New York, how did they move that quickly and where are all the remains?

Why don't significant gaps exist in the archeological record of Mesoamerica if these "missing" people existed?

The Christian overcomes mormon witchcraft with the Blood of the Lamb, the preaching of the Cross of Jesus Christ.Christians submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee.Christians have authority in the name of Jesus to cast the demons out.

Because your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, but the brother of Lucifer, you have no spiritual authority here; and all of your curses fall idly to the ground.

"This seer stone, still retained by the First Presidency of the LDS Church, was the vehicle through which the golden plates were discovered and the medium through which their interpretation came".

You know what, Jesus didn't need a seer stone and neither did any of His disciples;Neither did God's genuine prophets of old.Not one of God's prophets ever used witchcraft to write/interpret Scripture.

Jesus and His disciples did not sit around in the holy drawers and puffy white hats.They didn't need any of those masonic props to fulfill Scripture.

You know what, Jesus and John the Baptist, didn't tell anyone that they could be baptized for their dead loved ones. That's necromancy.And here's a news flash, all the baptisms you've performed for the dead won't cause God to budge an inch for the dead. When you're dead, it's too late.

Ashe, all the familiar spirits that have followed you around or shown up where you've lived.... Those are not ghosts....Those are familiar spirits. God does not allow our dead loved ones to visit us from the grave.You've been visiting with demons.There is most definitely not a thin paper curtain between you and the dead as you presume.

"Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed; so that they which would pass from hence to you can not; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

A Great Gulf Fixed

Luke 16:19-31

Christ shows that in this life men decide their eternal destiny. If men waste their opportunities, they cut themselves off from everlasting life. No afterprobation will be granted them. By their own choice they have fixed an impassable gulf between them and God.

Baptisms for the dead are worthless, unscriptural works.Wood, hay and stubble.

The rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

"remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed; so that they which would pass from hence to you can not; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

Christ tells us of the hopelessness of looking for a second probation.

This life is the only time given to man in which to prepare for eternity.

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

If your loved ones didn't believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ while they were alive,dunking yourself in the pool will not save them, it's too late.

But it's not too late for you, Ashe & MM. You're still alive and have breath. If you don't renounce that mormonism, you won't be with your relatives that did renounce it. There's a great gulf and one has fire.

Gail: I said the people living in the Americas had the old testament writings of the prophets. They came from the old world. They knew what they were writing about. The reason you are so bitter and filled with hate is because You deal with negative things written by men and women who had the truth of Jesus Christ and lost it through disobedience. Misery loves company. You hardened your heart and only God can make you repent now. Your hatred will see you cast out, not accepted into the kingdom of God.

Now Gail; I could, and have in the past faced, and refuted such specious doctrinal challenges as you now offer. When I have, the result is always the same, an immediate stonewall. I also note when offering a counter challenge, such as a polemical debate with Pentecostals they become, visceral, claiming its unacceptable, not allowed. In other words we can confront you, but dont dare challenge us. Its about people living in glass houses throwing stones.

Gail, I will endeavor to answer one of your posts, from.6/88I see no confusion between Old and New Covenants in the BOM. The Old Covenant is established in (Heb. 10:9). But as said not on iota was taken away, The BOM no more intermingles covenants than the Bible, Paul constantly refers to the OT, as the OT is a foreshadowing of the coming of the messiah; as he wished to illustrate. Where is the issue?

The devil is a liar.Ashe, you're stormin' mormon love walk went right down the drain.This is what the mormon priesthood tells anyone that would dare speak about the lies of mormonism. Have you read any of S. Benson's writings about it?

You can't answer a single one of these questions, but you can curse with the best of them.

Gail: You are absolutely correct. You don't have a hope of obtaining the celestial kingdom and living with the Father. The same as many Latter Day Saints will also not obtain that if they are not worthy to enter the temple at all times. Everyone here wants to live with Jesus Christ in the Terrestial kingdom anyways, so what difference does it make. The sad thing is many will not be there either. Without true repentence and living in harmony with Jesus Christ, many will be cast out. Satan is rejoicing.

Temple of Solomon took 180,000 people seven and a half years to build (1 Kings 5, 6) / The few in number Nephites did it in less than 20 years after arriving (2 Nephi 5).Calming Storm (1 Nephi 18:8-21) vs. (Matthew 8:23-27).Men in Fire (Helaman 5:22-24) vs. (Daniel 3).Feeding Multitude (3 Nephi 20:3-7) out of nothing / In Bible, Christ multiplied existing food (Matthew 14).Christ heals masses in Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 17:9) / in Bible Jesus healed as he encountered (Luke 9:42).

Why does the Book of Mormon confuse the Old and New Covenants? In the Bible, the Old Covenant is taken away to establish the New according to Paul and his followers (Heb. 10:9). The Book of Mormon intermingles the covenants. Paul was the man who first tried to reconcile the Old to the New convenant--not anyone during Old Testament times.

Why is polygamy condemned in the Book of Mormon, but condoned in portions of the D&C (condemned in others) and still believed to be necessary in church doctrine for exaltation in the after-life?

Where are such doctrines as a man having to marry in order to be exalted, member having to wear sacred undergarments, official doctrine being voted upon by the general membership, God being the offspring of another God, etc.?

Now Gail; I dont know where you got your infromation. As to quotes, context is everything. i could place wacky quotes from well known protestants, but it would say more about me than them protestants. As for me, I know salvation comes through Jesus Christ, and no other. I get a kick out of those who tell me what I believe. Capitol lock(screaming)is viseral, a poor replacement for substance. Look up AD HOMINUM in the dictionary.

MM and Ashe, your Ad Hom and 7 basic debate principles have as much power as temple garments - NONE.

"I tell you, JOSEPH SMITH HOLDS THE KEYS, AND NONE OF US CAN GET INTO THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM WITHOUT PASSING BY HIM. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him."

"I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, ..."

IF JOSEPH SMITH SHALL SAY TO A MAN, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I FORGIVE YOU YOUR SINS, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression, I WILL FORGIVE HIM: I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

"No man or woman will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF JOSEPH SMITH..every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... JOSEPH SMITH REIGNS THERE AS A SUPREME BEING IN HIS SPHERE, capacity, and calling, AS GOD does in heaven. It is true."- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91

"He that confesseth not that Jesus sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel is not of God, but is anti-christ"- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312

" Because the Lord called Joseph Smith salvation is again available to mortal men.... If not for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"- Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

Gail; In the past when I debated fundamentalist they resorted to emotion when it was clear their arguments failed, then they bailed. I could with ease use, quote Bible verses I thought suppoted my unique views, but that's self-serving. Slave owners quoted Bible verses to defend their slavery, genocides were commited with biblical approval,evil has often been done on the heals of a few Bible verses. Again I ask, who (what group) will destroy the religions you do not like?

Gail-Most of my former family were pentaostals. i left it for what I believe is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is not in exclusion of others beliefs, as I believe in pluralism, freedom of religion, you clearly do not. If Mormons and all other non-fundamentalist/pentacostals are to be destroyed a you say, who is going to do all this destroying?

13. The Bible explains that those (Mormons) who teach false doctrine will be destroyed.

The correct answer is True.

2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

20. We are called to be knowledgeable of the Word, no longer as children subject to the lies of men.

The correct answer is True.

Ephesians 4:14 - That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

23. We are to receive those who teach false doctrines into our homes to help them.

The correct answer is False.

FALSE, 2 John 1:9-11 - Whosoever abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.