"Clouds are not spheres, mountains are not cones, coastlines are not
circles, and bark is not smooth, nor does lightning travel in a straight
line." So writes acclaimed mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot in his
path-breaking book The Fractal Geometry of Nature. Instead,
such natural forms, and many man-made creations as well, are "rough,"
he says. To study and learn from such roughness, for which he invented
the term fractal, Mandelbrot devised a new kind of visual
mathematics based on such irregular shapes. Fractal geometry, as he
called this new math, is worlds apart from the Euclidean variety we all
learn in school, and it has sparked discoveries in myriad fields, from
finance to metallurgy, cosmology to medicine. In this interview, hear
from the father of fractals about why he disdains rules, why he
considers himself a philosopher, and why he abandons work on any given
advance in fractals as soon as it becomes popular. A Radical Mind

As I watch the dialogue between Bruce Lipton and Tom Campbell here, there were many things that helped my perspective understand the virtual world in relation to how the biology subject was presented. It is obvious then why Bruce Lipton likes the analogies Tom Campbell has to offer. The epiphanies Bruce is having along the road to his developing biological work is very important. It is how each time a person makes the leap that one must understand how individuals change, how societies change.

Okay so for one, the subject of fractals presents itself and the idea of process fractals and Geometry Fractals were presented in relation to each other. Now the talk moved onto the very thought of geometry presented in context sort of raised by ire even though I couldn't distinguish the differences. The virtual world analogy is still very unsettling to me.

So ya I have something to learn here.

I think my problem was with how such iteration may be schematically driven so as toidentify the pattern. Is to see this process reveal itself on a much larger scale. So when I looked at the Euclidean basis as a Newtonian expression the evolution toward relativity had to include the idea of Non Euclidean geometries. This was the natural evolution of the math that lies at the basis of graduating from a Euclidean world. It is the natural expression of understanding how this geometry can move into a dynamical world.

So yes the developing perspective for me is that even though we are talking abut mathematical structures here we see some correspondence in nature . This has been my thing so as to discover the starting point?

A schematic of a transmembrane receptor

It the truest sense I had already these questions in my mind as I was going through the talk. The starting point for Bruce is his biology and the cell. For Tom, he has not been explicit here other then to say that it is his studies with Monroe that he developed his thoughts around the virtual world as it relates to the idea of what he found working with Monroe.

So it is an exploration I feel of the work he encountered and has not so far as I seen made a public statement to that effect. It needs to be said and he needs to go back and look over how he had his epiphanies. For me this is about the process of discovery and creativity that I have found in my own life. Can one feel so full as to have found ones wealth in being that you can look everywhere and see the beginnings of many things?

This wealth is not monetary for me although I recognized we had to take care of or families and made sure they were ready to be off on their own. To be productive.

So for me the quest for that starting point is to identify the pattern that exists in nature as much as many have tried various perspective in terms of quantum gravity. Yes, we are all sort of like blind men trying to explain the reality of the world in our own way and in the process we may come up with our epiphanies.

These epiphanies help us to the next level of understanding as if we moved outside of our skeletal frame to allow the membrane of the cell to allow receptivity of what exist in the world around as information. We are not limited then to the frame of the skeleton hardened too, that we cannot progress further. The surface area of the membrane then becomes a request to open the channels toward expansion of the limitations we had applied to ourselves maintaining a frame of reference.

"So it is an exploration I feel of the work he encountered and has not so far as I seen made a public statement to that effect."

Hmmm. I've seen mentions of it frequently. Given that I suspect the hurdle is about 'work'. How do you define it, what are your expectations as to it's form, in an environment such as Tom's research has taken place ?

"It needs to be said and he needs to go back and look over how he had his epiphanies."

I'll leave this open-ended ...

Why ? What are your expectations ?

Re: epiphanies

Tom has discussed such events. I think the following video has one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llPKpyAJlYA

These sorts of cases, epiphanies, are minimized by Tom.

Those that want to maximize them, are typically having issues with Tom's application of reality as VR. It's not a new topic and I don't have a representative quote on why Tom has his perspective that he does - but it's 'out there' in the public domain.

If I recall correctly, you have already read some of Whitworth's work who address the 'objective reality out there' versus his VR conjecture, so your difficulties are likely deep seated, most likely even, irrational at their root.

Keep Diggin'

PS Tom warns, at his Wiki, which is the most recent case I remember, that it might take a lifetime to 'get it'.

Hmmmm... I'll have to give it a try.....you might have to relay how you did it again.

What I find using Disqus is that if you type out a response say in notepad or copy quote, the sentences seem all divide up so I have to delete the spaces in order to get it to line up.

Tom Campbell and Dennis Mennerich share more memories and some advice from their experiences in life and with Bob Monroe at the famous "lab" at Whistlefield. Tom discusses the point of our existence here, Dennis and Tom recall Dr Elisabeth Kubler-Ross's visit to Whistlefield, and Tom talks about spirit rescue work.Tom Campbell and Dennis Mennerich Interview: Beliefs, Dr Kubler-Ross

Hmmm. I've seen mentions of it frequently. Given that I suspect the hurdle is about 'work'. How do you define it, what are your expectations as to it's form, in an environment such as Tom's research has taken place ?

Html using blockquote works.

The work I mention I suspect had to be with developing the Hemi-sync and getting consciousness to travel....where it travels etc. getting out of the confines of matter distinctions and traveling abroad.

Why ? What are your expectations ?

Bruce was demonstrating the number of receptors on the membrane and each cell in a class distinctions of many cells gives us the human body....many individuals.... many more receptors and many changes in the consciousnesss of society. But each time this conglomeration of the many defines the species, yet what is to come next? The aha moment or the epiphany, is the struggle have been going through and breaking free to that next level.

Haha......ya okay. :)

Maybe the idea that we can recreate the world of consciousness mechanically?:) Robot building. But ya the Mars rover was a good point as well with regard to sensors developement to allow our perception to be exercised on Mars. Are we recreating the Mars experience according to what it really is or according to the development of the sensors?

"The work I mention "You could likely get some information from searches on Robert Monroe + altered states.

"Haha......ya okay. :)"

I've had some epiphanies about my own irrational deep-seated issues, so that sort of popped out. It's one of those 'but who doesn't' if one can set the EGO aside and be totally honest.

"recreate"

To what purpose ?

"Robot building"

Google books has MBT, where one can read up on AI Guy.

"Mars/sensors"

It's just like it's always been, will always be ... This VR is designed at fractal levels all throughout to reinforce the sensory experience front and center in order to convince us that this is serious stuff to be taken seriously. Ya know, like 'life and death' type stuff.

It's just like it's always been, will always be ... This VR is designed at fractal levels all throughout to reinforce the sensory experience front and center in order to convince us that this is serious stuff to be taken seriously. Ya know, like 'life and death' type stuff.

Yes the Benoit video is very specific here, in terms of the mathematical underpinnings in pattern identifications This is to see it in the larger context as "natural things" unfolding for us.

This has been nagging my mind. We, I mean all scientists and public set up the parameters to a kind of configuration space in order to understand the probability outcome some how fits within "that box." We designed the system,,,,,,we develop the sensors to gather specific data.

If we do this we set up and are precursors of the probabilities that exist to be define within those parameters. Like Tom picking a specific frame of reference.

I look at the experiments being done and the backdrop( as define in the configuration space, as fitting our perceptions. This is what we want to see. So the virtual world in terms of the games, lets say Second LIfe and not Warcraft.

I do not play these games......maybe just an older folk type.:) I do not engage second life either, but it might be an apt comparison to the virtual world?

I have been wondering if they have been working in the background to perfect their craft?:)

But that is what I want is a dynamical discussion board that gives people the tools that Google does to provide for views from as many angles as possible. If they can work that magic with YouTube inclusive I would be most greatful indeed.

Metaphorically speaking, that is probably your intuition doing the 'nagging'. I have found that my intuition can be a force for pulling my intellectual along, kicking and screaming, as it were, to the important things I need to learn.

'This does not mean I have not come to the same conclusions in many ways that Bruce and Tom have effectively come too.'

I would analyze that as progress being made in corralling your EGO. That has potential to improve you 'Being self' in a multitude of ways. It can be like a avalanche of rocks, stones, and dirt sliding uncontrollably to all but gravity. Or in can be like a single stone careening down an incline.

"The knowledge wealth of the system is."

Knowledge wealth is one of a handful of informational items I highly value.

The 'meta' commentary I would make, in this specific instance, in the form of a nitpick is - the system doesn't have knowledge wealth, people (consciousness) do(es).

'Scientists have to come of age just as they bring their science to age.'

Some at least. I am not sure if a tipping point has been reached yet. There are a lot of counter-forces with a lot of EGO in the path of the tipping point.

Tom and Bruce are working for a specific paradigm change to place Consciousness in the apex of consideration of all things. It occurs one person at a time, so it's slow.

The 'meta' commentary I would make, in this specific instance, in the form of a nitpick is - the system doesn't have knowledge wealth, people (consciousness) do(es).

I think I had to make a conclusion here with regard to access to that information means that we had to set our selves up to be able to receive? So in the sense that the information itself "is a meta capability" then access would mean we had to find the step off point for such access to that potential.

As well then, to assume that meta information of the vast capabilities of consciousness could be connected too by each of us beyond the current confines of what we had always known within the skeletal frame of our being now. The necessary part of our evolution is to grow beyond the cell, beyond the individual....toward that next step.

RBM:Some at least. I am not sure if a tipping point has been reached yet. There are a lot of counter-forces with a lot of EGO in the path of the tipping point.

The tipping point is a very strong analogy in my own mind about perspective and from what we are all in the beginning? How can their be such a thing?

Symmetry breaking is an important subject as it reveals requirements about what may exist before any potential is realized?

So any stone rolling down the hill to the valley is an important one in terms of the vacuum and the expression of what pops out into reality. Does this thing have a shape resting in that valley?

The mathematical realization is just as important as realizing what the fractals relate to in terms of the geometries? You need a toposense for that, yet you can realize it in the explanation of the fractals and that is mathematically pleasing?:)

You definitely have to go back inside to discover what you are emerging from and into?

Consciouness emerges when this primordial story-the story of a object causally changing the state of the body-can be told using the universal nonverbal vocabulary of body signals. The aparent self emerges as the feeling of a feeling. When the story is first told, sponataneously, without it ever being requested, and furthermore after that hwhen the story is repeated, knowledge about hwat the organism is living through automatically emerges as the answer to a question never asked. From that moment on, we begin to know. Pg 31, The Feeling of What Happens, by Antonio Damasio