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Redskins sign safety O.J. Atogwe

The Washington Redskins have signed free agent safety O.J. Atogwe, according to a league source with knowledge of the situation. The team announced the signing shortly after.

Atogwe, who was released by the St. Louis Rams on Feb. 18, visited Redskins Park four days later but left without signing a contract.

Atogwe's deal is for $26 million over five years, according to a league source.

Washington got Atogwe's signing taken care of on the last possible day before the expiration of the 2010 league year. Atogwe was free to sign with any team because he had been released and his rights weren't held by any team.

At the time, he wanted to continue to weigh his options in free agency. But Atogwe had ties to the Redskins having played for defensive coordinator Jim Haslett from 2006 to 2007, when Haslett held the same position with the Rams.

The Redskins were looking to upgrade the free safety position after Kareem Moore struggled both with performance and health last season. Moore ended the year on injured reserve, had to have a second knee surgery of the season (the first took place in August) and is still recovering.

The Redskins expect to use Moore as a backup to Atogwe, according to a source. With Atogwe and strong safety LaRon Landry, Washington should have a strong starting tandem.

Atogwe, 29, is strong in pass coverage, having recorded 22 interceptions in six seasons. His best season was 2007, when he notched eight interceptions while playing under Haslett. Last season, the 5-foot-11, 205-pound Atogwe recorded 73 tackles, nine pass deflections and three interceptions.

For once, it appears the Redskins did not overpay. Also garnering offseason interest from the Broncos, Bills, and Cowboys, Atogwe’s annual average of $5.2 million sounds reasonable for a safety who has accounted for the third most turnovers among NFL defensive backs over the past five seasons. (Only Charles Woodson and Ed Reed have more.)

In Washington, Atogwe will play free safety alongside “in-the-box” thumper LaRon Landry. Atogwe is familiar with Redskins defensive coordinator Jim Haslett’s schemes, having played for Haslett from 2006 through 2008.

The Redskins still have holes at quarterback, wide receiver, defensive end, nose tackle, and linebacker. And arguably running back and several spots on the offensive line.

But their defensive secondary, at least, is shaping up nicely on paper.

Is he in our future? Two guys who I think are cheap and underrated are Jackson and Seneca Wallace. If nothing else, I kick the tires.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 3, 2011 3:38 PM

Are you phuking smoking crack? Tarvaris Jackson? That may very well be the stupidest thing I've ever read on this blog and that's saying something because I've posted some dumb sh!t.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 3, 2011 3:54 PM

How sweet of you. Assuming Donovan goes and we sign Tarvaris, guess who'd have the highest career passer rating of all the QBs on the team? Guess who'd be the only to have thrown more career TDs than picks? Hint: its not either of the guys on our current roster.

Our #1 QB is Rex Grossman and our backup is John Beck. I know, it hurts me to say it and much as it probably hurts to hear it.

Tarvaris is the youngest of the bunch, is 10-9 as a starter and has a higher career QB rating than Rex (by 6 points) or Beck. I've never seen Beck run, but I'm pretty sure Tarvaris is a tougher to catch than Grossman.

Beck is gonna be 30 before the season starts and is 0-4. He has thrown an NFL TD pass. Exactly 1. And 1 is a bigger number than all the NFL game passes he's thrown in 2008, 2009 and 2010 -- combined.

I wish we had better news at QB, but sadly, Tarvaris is probably an upgrade over Beck and could compete with Rex. So its not phukin stupid to look at him.

As for OJ, like the player, don't like that he's 30 in a couple months. I'd love the signing if he were 26.

Some folks suggested that he'll be like a coach on the field -- and that is a good point.

He's clearly taking the FS position from weakness to strength -- that is exactly how to use a FA signing. But I'm skeptical that he'll be around long enough to make this a good deal for us.

Overall, I'd have passed on OJ. His age is really the only negative -- and even then I'd have been OK if we were closer to being competitive. But since I don't see us competing effectively 'til around 2013, I'd have reluctantly said no.

Zeke I sort of feel you on Atgowe's almost being 30, I wish he was younger, but it is an upgrade at the position, I just hope he comes here and balls and doesn't wind up being another FA bust/mistake.
One good thing, he and Haslett are familiar with each other and he knows the scheme so that should make a big difference.

As for OJ, like the player, don't like that he's 30 in a couple months. I'd love the signing if he were 26.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 3, 2011 5:55 PM

Whatever. He's not. But he is a documented ball hawk. And he's fast. And smart.

We'll put you down for an "I told you so" when he gets hurt later.

[For those watching at home, dcsween has been pimping Atogwe since shortly after the Sean Taylor tragedy ... and before Atogwe was tagged ... when Haslett was still the coach of the Rams ... so NOW I can do my back patting. PLUS, with the CBA extension, I'm still up here for another day ... so you can all resume your tears for another day.]

Good solid move. There was little to no help in this draft. Getting OJ now helps address one of the more glaring needs on the defense. Now, they need to get a starter at NT, an another starter at OLB opposite RAK. I'm really liking this signing.

Huh? Not sure where I equated the two. Said I'd kick the tires on Jackson, whose probably a cheap backup QB. I think we do re-sign Rex. He's cheap, knows the system. I'm actually OK with him running the show until we Shanny can find a guy he really thinks is the long term answer. From what I've read, not sure that guy is in this year's draft.

As for OJ, like the player, don't like that he's 30 in a couple months. I'd love the signing if he were 26.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 3, 2011 5:55 PM

Whatever. He's not. But he is a documented ball hawk. And he's fast. And smart.

We'll put you down for an "I told you so" when he gets hurt later.

[For those watching at home, dcsween has been pimping Atogwe since shortly after the Sean Taylor tragedy ... and before Atogwe was tagged ... when Haslett was still the coach of the Rams ... so NOW I can do my back patting. PLUS, with the CBA extension, I'm still up here for another day ... so you can all resume your tears for another day.]

Posted by: dcsween | March 3, 2011 6:11 PM

You earned the back pat.

I'm not hoping for an 'I told you so'!! I'd rather he do a Brian Dawkins or a Ronnie Lott, guys who played well into their 30's. But I'm not sure the odds are with us on that.

How sweet of you. Assuming Donovan goes and we sign Tarvaris, guess who'd have the highest career passer rating of all the QBs on the team? Guess who'd be the only to have thrown more career TDs than picks? Hint: its not either of the guys on our current roster.

Our #1 QB is Rex Grossman and our backup is John Beck. I know, it hurts me to say it and much as it probably hurts to hear it.

Tarvaris is the youngest of the bunch, is 10-9 as a starter and has a higher career QB rating than Rex (by 6 points) or Beck. I've never seen Beck run, but I'm pretty sure Tarvaris is a tougher to catch than Grossman.

Beck is gonna be 30 before the season starts and is 0-4. He has thrown an NFL TD pass. Exactly 1. And 1 is a bigger number than all the NFL game passes he's thrown in 2008, 2009 and 2010 -- combined.

I wish we had better news at QB, but sadly, Tarvaris is probably an upgrade over Beck and could compete with Rex. So its not phukin stupid to look at him.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 3, 2011 5:39 PM |

Well, that settles it. You are indeed smoking crack. Are you "winning" too?

(Not a single comment complaining about how "late" Jonesy got this posted, how he was scooped, how he attributed it to an unnamed "league source," or any other gripe? Nice double standard, trollz. Enjoy the honeymoon, Mike.)

Saw Pat Kirwan has the skins taking Julio Jones. While we need a wr I just can't get excited about another high pick wr after the Thomas/Kelly fiasco. Not to mention ancient history with Westbrook, Howard, the clemson kid, etc

(Not a single comment complaining about how "late" Jonesy got this posted, how he was scooped, how he attributed it to an unnamed "league source," or any other gripe? Nice double standard, trollz. Enjoy the honeymoon, Mike.)

Darren Sharper is 35. Other than THIS season (and 3 games he missed in 2003), he hasn't missed more than 2 in 15 seasons.

Dawkins (37) didn't have a bumpy season till this last one.

I'm thinking you just want to be contrary on this signing b/c there is so little love for Tavaris Jackson up here this afternoon.

Posted by: dcsween | March 3, 2011 6:42 PM

Nah, that's not it. I've been 'no' on OJ since his named popped up a week or two ago. Same reason -- really the only reason -- age. I like the player.

I think we need to be targeting this team for around 2013. Hopefully OJ holds up -- there are guys that have held up nicely at FS well into their 30's. You bring up Dawkins and Sharper. Ed Reed is another guy. Great player, missed 10 games at age 31 and 32, hadn't missed 10 games in his entire career before the last 2 years.

By the time 2013 rolls around, OJ's career will be more in the 'crap shoot' phase. If he plays at a high level 'til he's 35 or so, it'll have been a great move.

As for the Tarvaris thing -- I'm laughing at how much arguing a suggestion to kick the tires is getting. Especially given our QB situation. A year ago, people up here were hammering me because I wasn't good with the Donovan trade. Oh well.

We all find out what we got right and wrong long after the dust has settled.

First, its a brilliant move. We couldn't really address this in the draft, NT, OL, QB, OLB are bigger needs and so getting a likely starter from 5 picks was gonna be tough.

On OJ getting the 21 Jersey, So long as the Taylor family is okay with it. I am too. Its not a retired number, just on the unofficial list, with 7,9, 17, 28, 44, 81. If ST's family and friends say its okay, then he can wear it with this fan's blessing as well.

As far as a nickname. Well I am hesitant, I don't want to curse them like I did the dream tandem of Andre Carter and Jason Taylor, "Crash and Tango".

Strong safeties are a dime a dozen. They are also called "special teams." Its harder to find a good ball hawking free safety.

Posted by: dcsween | March 3, 2011 7:11 PM

A big part of success at safety is the chemistry thing. If they mesh well, you can have success with the ball hawking. Its why Ryan Clark has a career along side Troy. He's not a great player, but he fits in well.

In the past couple years, we've had too many plays where the DBs are looking at each other afterwards, trying to figure out who messed up. Kind of the anti-chemistry thing.

I know Mr. Snyder is the BEST owner ever -- but does he know his underlings are continuing the sins of the past, paying top dollar for other teams cast-offs - with high mileage on them? Maybe someone should tell him?

alex: "On OJ getting the 21 Jersey, So long as the Taylor family is okay with it. I am too. Its not a retired number, just on the unofficial list, with 7,9, 17, 28, 44, 81. If ST's family and friends say its okay, then he can wear it with this fan's blessing as well."

I see where you're coming from, but I don't want "ST's family and friends" having say over anything having to do with how this franchise operates, even something as trivial as a jersey number.

There's reasonable, respectful sensitivity, and then there's an absurd level of oversensitivity.

Sean Taylor was a meteor, and we were lucky to have been along for the ride. But as glorious as his time in burgundy and gold was, it was only three and a half seasons.

Yes, his murder was a moment that all Skins fans will remember forever, and yes, at that moment he was head and shoulders our best player, but at some point we have to move on.

What I'm saying is, I have no problem with someone wearing #21, particularly someone who is a pretty damn good player to whom we just paid a lot of money, and who has as good a chance as anybody as "living up to" the legend of Sean Taylor.

I know Mr. Snyder is the BEST owner ever -- but does he know his underlings are continuing the sins of the past, paying top dollar for other teams cast-offs - with high mileage on them? Maybe someone should tell him?

Posted by: jburnetti

Wrong!

It seems that the iggles have made the same mistake then in signing mike vick; he was a cast-off from atlanta and served time.

If we don't sign free agents we are cutting our nose off to spite our face. Just cuz people like AH are worthless doesnt mean EVERY free agent in going to be a nightmare. We signed this dude to a reasonable contract, not one that sells our entire future out to a deviant loser.

I see where you are coming from, I am just saying that we have somewhat of a team history of new players doing this for jersey numbers of former great players. And when guys don't do that, then fans seem to be upset.

We all find out what we got right and wrong long after the dust has settled.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 3, 2011 7:06 PM |

We don't need to wait for no dust to settle to know with certitude that you're an obnoxious jerk. Mebbe you was right about McNabb but how far off was you with Andre Carter? When the Skins released the dud I didn't see no teams jumping at the chance to sine him. And while we're on the trig gig, I didn't see nobody cosining to all that shti you dredged up to justify thinking the Skins could get a third rounder for the dud in a trade.

"Game film convinced offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan that McNabb would be a bad fit for his father's offense. Kyle spoke up before the trade, but others in the organization pushed for McNabb. The elder Shanahan approved the deal because he wanted a proven quarterback and, well, what if Kyle was wrong?"

Been basically out of the loop since about week 14 of the regular season...did we discuss this J. Reid bombshell already?

On the jersey number, I'd stay away from #21. Too soon. And its the same spot, next to the same SS. Its inviting comparisons to a ghost, and there's no winning that.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 3, 2011 7:49 PM

Some guys are attached to their numbers and some aren't. If 21 is important to Atogwe he should wear it. If people compare him to Sean Taylor because both wore the same number, so what? That comparison is no more relevant than comparing Yahoo! to Chrysler.

"Game film convinced offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan that McNabb would be a bad fit for his father's offense. Kyle spoke up before the trade, but others in the organization pushed for McNabb. The elder Shanahan approved the deal because he wanted a proven quarterback and, well, what if Kyle was wrong?"

Been basically out of the loop since about week 14 of the regular season...did we discuss this J. Reid bombshell already?

Posted by: Pepper5 | March 3, 2011 7:58 PM | Report abuse

We are still complaining about Ryan Clark and Adam Archuleta, I think you are safe.

"Game film convinced offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan that McNabb would be a bad fit for his father's offense. Kyle spoke up before the trade, but others in the organization pushed for McNabb. The elder Shanahan approved the deal because he wanted a proven quarterback and, well, what if Kyle was wrong?"

We don't need to wait for no dust to settle to know with certitude that you're an obnoxious jerk. Mebbe you was right about McNabb but how far off was you with Andre Carter? When the Skins released the dud I didn't see no teams jumping at the chance to sine him. And while we're on the trig gig, I didn't see nobody cosining to all that shti you dredged up to justify thinking the Skins could get a third rounder for the dud in a trade.

Posted by: ElDrano | March 3, 2011 7:48 PM

oooooooooooo. I must be wrong because I didn't get any co-signs. ooooooooooooo. I'm sure the correlation between "co-signs" and what eventually happens is really rally really really high. As for Carter, 3 obvious things. First, there's no CBA so there's not as much player movement. Second, Carter has been on the market for all of a day or two, and the owners are kinda busy. And third, this was about Carter before the 2010 season, not after.

Gotta admit, I enjoyed your use of the word 'certitude', surrounded by all the other funky spellings and grammar.

I'd like to see what else the Skins do to the roster this offseason before judging this signing.

I'm pretty not-so-high on signing anyone who's gonna be 30 when the season starts to a 5-year contract.

Going into the offseason, I don't believe that upgrade at FS was near the top of our priority list.

Would it help? Sure. Virtually anything would help. But if we get better pressure on the QB, and get LL30 back playing healthy, I believe that would mitigate a big chunk of the weaknesses we saw at FS this past season.

I also don't know what the thinking is going to be for how much $$ we plan to invest in our secondary down the line. DHall is already making $50 mill. Now Atogwe is making $26. How much is LL30 going to be asking for when we need to re-up with him and he's playing at an All-Pro level?

One of the problems under Vinny is that we spent a bundle on a few frontline starters at a few positions, and that left us very thin at other places on the roster.

With a roster as thin as it already is, how are we going to fill out the needs if we are loading up on one part of it? We still need a starting NT, a couple LBs, a QB, 3-4 startes on the Oline, and a #1 and #2 WR.

It seems that the iggles have made the same mistake then in signing mike vick; he was a cast-off from atlanta and served time.

If we don't sign free agents we are cutting our nose off to spite our face. Just cuz people like AH are worthless doesnt mean EVERY free agent in going to be a nightmare. We signed this dude to a reasonable contract, not one that sells our entire future out to a deviant loser.

Posted by: monkeymayonaise | March 3, 2011 7:38 PM

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey calm down now. Let's not let rational thought get in the way of knee jerk reactions here.

On the jersey number, I'd stay away from #21. Too soon. And its the same spot, next to the same SS. Its inviting comparisons to a ghost, and there's no winning that.

Posted by: zcezcest1 | March 3, 2011 7:49 PM

Some guys are attached to their numbers and some aren't. If 21 is important to Atogwe he should wear it. If people compare him to Sean Taylor because both wore the same number, so what? That comparison is no more relevant than comparing Yahoo! to Chrysler.

We're handing out 5-year contracts to 30-year olds, while the Browns locked up a tackling machine in his prime years on a low-risk/high-reward incentive-laden one year deal.

I guess the only silver lining is that if he proves to be healthy, then maybe we can snag him next offseason...of course if he proves to be healthy then the Browns are likely going to lock him up long-term.

Oh, well.

We give contracts to backups and 30-year olds. I guess that's just our lot in life.

I'm pretty not-so-high on signing anyone who's gonna be 30 when the season starts to a 5-year contract.

Posted by: p1funk | March 3, 2011 8:10 PM |

I'd like to see what this "5 year contract" actually is. Is it a 5 year contract like McNabb's? That's not really a 5 year contract. That's a series of 1 year contracts that only we can terminate at our leasure.

I'd like to see what this "5 year contract" actually is. Is it a 5 year contract like McNabb's? That's not really a 5 year contract. That's a series of 1 year contracts that only we can terminate at our leasure.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 3, 2011 8:20 PM | Report abuse

They were reporting on the radio that OJ's agent wanted a contract that didn't have a poison pill the way his last 2 contracts did - the kind that have a big escalator after the first or second year and lead to more situations like the past 2 offseasons.

So my guess is that it is a legit 5 years; maybe 4 with a team option, or something like that.

In his prime huh? He's hasn't played a game in a year and a half due to injuries...I wouldn't call that "his prime years."

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 3, 2011 8:27 PM | Report abuse

He's 28 and has been spared a year and half of football wear-tear.

It's one injury that he's been getting over. He tore his pectoral 5-6 games into the 2009 season. When he came to training camp in 2010, they decided the pec didn't heal properly/fully, so they IRed him on the spot and he got surgery #2.

It's one injury that he's been getting over. He tore his pectoral 5-6 games into the 2009 season. When he came to training camp in 2010, they decided the pec didn't heal properly/fully, so they IRed him on the spot and he got surgery #2.

Everyone is guessing as far as the contract, eh? Are there any details out yet? S&A have been pretty savvy about contracts so far. Let's wait and see.

As for OJ, age and contract aside, he is a huge upgrade over Moore. He will come in ready to play, not learning the system and still confused in week nine. The only downside is 'can he stay healthy'? Let's all knock on our foreheads.

I'm always amused at how the 30 year old line is played. Yes, at RB it usually spells the end. Lineman are starting to get long in the tooth at that time. QB's and safeties seem to be pretty good well into their 30's. People need to use some perspective here. 30 is not the death of every player out there.

Posted by: p1funk
~~~
Dead-on post. I was contemplating what to write-you wrote it for me.

I like Atogwe, but damn, 26 million for 5years? Unless this contains some McNabb contract-style out, I don't love it, but I do like Atogwe's game.

It's like a forgotten fact that Kareem Moore was a 1st year starter, played okay for a 1st year starter and probably came back too early from the 1st knee surgery. Plus, I believe we drafted him to be strong safety.

As always, Snyder seems to always want to fix the safety position by overdoing it. What is the deal with Snyder and the position of safety?

I always thought OJ was a good fit because he's a pass defender -- which Landry isn't And given how erratic the Skins pass defense has been, he can only help. Kareem Moore is a nice athlete, and Reed Doughty is smart, but nobody thinks either one is ready to hold down that job.

As far as being 30, so what? Just means he's got some maturity. A free agent like that, if you get three good years out of him, you're ahead of most signings. He fills a hole. Somebody had to fill it.

Let's also not forget that there is no way we were going to pick up a starting FS in the draft and although there are a few good safeties coming available in FA, quite a few of them were strong safeties...something we have plenty of.

My perspective is that the Redskins are virtually at ground-zero of a rebuilding project and they lack a basic core of foundational players to build around.

30 year old free agents are not exactly players that typically fit into the need.

I'd be much more excited if the news was that we reached a big-time deal to extend LL30 for the next 7-8 years.

Posted by: p1funk | March 3, 2011 8:52 PM

Fair enough, and to a certain extent I agree. I don't agree to the extent that we shouldn't draft a 30 year old FS to the exclusion of uprgrading that position. I don't believe that we could draft a starting FS nor pick up one in FA that is a much better. For the record I would have liked to have taken a shot at Eric Weddle instead and I've said as much but I don't hate this signing and for a reasonable price for a guy with his talent level. Here is a list of FA safeties. A lot of which are SS. Which would you prefer over OJ or would you prefer we draft one in the first or second to start?

Which would you prefer over OJ or would you prefer we draft one in the first or second to start?

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 3, 2011 9:02 PM | Report abuse

My preference would be to let Kareem Moore and Kevin Barnes compete for the position.

In fairness to Moore, he was a first year starter who was rushed back from knee surgery. Also, assuming that LL30 is going to stay healthy, I don't think Moore will find himself in as many vulnerable positions against the run.

Barnes appears to have the skill set to play FS and acquitted himself pretty well in the limited chances he had.

I don't think either of these young guys got a truly fair shake to win or lose the opportunity to start.

It's a team at a young stage of rebuilding; I'd like to give a fair shot to roll with our own younger draft picks.

I think what Reid is trying to say when he writes "others in the organization" wanted McNabb is that Dan Snyder and/or Bruce Allen wanted McNabb -- it's not 100% clear but it's very close to a line. If it turns out that was Snyder well good grief that's a huge bombshell.

I'm a d0uche that posts with a different handle every night and contributes nothing.

Posted by: ElDrano | March 3, 2011 8:43 PM

Cosign

Posted by: Diesel44 | March 3, 2011 8:51 PM |

Hey, you could be right, at least about the contribution part. For sure, one thing I don't contribute is parroting breaking news wire reports on the blog. And profanity. Or to be more precise, tricked out profanity.

On the other hand if it was Allen who pushed for McNabb, well no surprise there...I think we all know Allen is not skilled in the fine art of roster assemblage. Come to think of it neither is Shanahan....doh!

Bottom line -- we didn't really get what we wanted when we were having our little Burgundy revolution in the fall of 2009.

It's one injury that he's been getting over. He tore his pectoral 5-6 games into the 2009 season. When he came to training camp in 2010, they decided the pec didn't heal properly/fully, so they IRed him on the spot and he got surgery #2.

Posted by: p1funk | March 3, 2011 8:30 PM

I think the original injury was the left pec and the second injury was the right pec. Seriously.

Really p1? Comparing LL to KM? LL was playing out of position and as I said repeatedly he would be a pro bowler if he was allowed to do what he did at LSU (playing SS and 10 YDs off of the LOS).

We just added a S and are bringing back the same guys from last YR. One guy has to go and it's between Moore and Horton. So take your pick. Keep in mind that Horton is solid on teams.

Posted by: Diesel44 | March 3, 2011 9:38 PM | Report abuse

What I'm doing is pointing out the short-sightedness of bailing on a guy b/c he had one bad year - especially when it was his first year as a starter and the team acknowledged that they rushed him back from injury.

He was all the rage in training camp and preseason...then he got injured. Then he got rushed back without being fully healed and played a good chunk of the season without LL30 in front of him to help mop up the run.

I don;t think Kareem Moore is going to be a Pro-Bowler, but c'mon Diez. You've got enough sense to understand circumstances working against a guy and what constitutes a "fair shot".

My preference would be to let Kareem Moore and Kevin Barnes compete for the position.

In fairness to Moore, he was a first year starter who was rushed back from knee surgery. Also, assuming that LL30 is going to stay healthy, I don't think Moore will find himself in as many vulnerable positions against the run.

Barnes appears to have the skill set to play FS and acquitted himself pretty well in the limited chances he had.

I don't think either of these young guys got a truly fair shake to win or lose the opportunity to start.

It's a team at a young stage of rebuilding; I'd like to give a fair shot to roll with our own younger draft picks.

Posted by: p1funk | March 3, 2011 9:10 PM | Report abuse

You mean the LBs and DLs we draft. Cool.

Fair points, but I think you're making a better argument for young, hungry, and as yet unproven depth behind a proven veteran entering what might be the back end of his prime. Which is what we get with this signing. Good thing too, to whit Ed Reed at 31-32.

Isn't that something good to great teams have at key positions?

Only 7-9 more positions to go for this good kind of problem (having youngens that might well start behind a proven vet) before we turn this Titanic around…but we gotta start somewhere.

Good signing at the right price. Weren't y'all crowing about signing Rogers and Moss to something like this contract? I guess we need to see how it's distributed.

@ El Drano and Diesel- this thread is going along too well to let you two muck it up , we all have our points to make...

Posted by: ArmchairGM | March 3, 2011 9:32 PM |

Okay, so I apologize for being mean to zcest1 and scampbell1975. But I never used profanity. On the other hand, Diesel44 attacked me, saying I was a d0uche, using alternative characters to get around the profanity filter. That's pretty bad behavior on his part. He needs to do some pologizing as well. Good night.

PS - just for the record, I ain't going to be showing up in the future posting under no alt IDs as some may think.

Fair points, but I think you're making a better argument for young, hungry, and as yet unproven depth behind a proven veteran entering what might be the back end of his prime. Which is what we get with this signing. Good thing too, to whit Ed Reed at 31-32.

Isn't that something good to great teams have at key positions?

Only 7-9 more positions to go for this good kind of problem (having youngens that might well start behind a proven vet) before we turn this Titanic around…but we gotta start somewhere.

Good signing at the right price. Weren't y'all crowing about signing Rogers and Moss to something like this contract? I guess we need to see how it's distributed.

Posted by: RomoLongballs | March 3, 2011 9:53 PM | Report abuse

So we just gave a 5 year contract to a guy that you acknowledge is entering the end of his prime, and you think that's a good signing at the right price for a team in total rebuild mode?

Not following the logic there.

A team that is rebuilding does not have a wealth of proven veteran players with a stable of young hungry developments projects behind them.

If a team had that makeup, then it wouldn't be "rebuilding". It would be "reloading" - the way the Pats, Colts and Eagles have done over the past decade.

A team that is rebuilding has a select core of young talented players that can be molded together and, once established, you continue to add pieces around it through draft and select veteran FAs.

Once again, I submit the following question to the blog:

How much should we ultimately spend on our secondary?

DHall - $50 mill
Atogwe - $26 mill
LL30 - FA after this year.
CB #2 -

Keep in mind that the highest paid safties in the NFL are currently making about $7mill/season.

Some of the dust-ups on these threads can be vicious, I try to do my part to keep a mutha from being shot-some of you jokers are dangerous!

:-P.

Now, let me see if I have this down, Scamp and Mattsound....

Beep-beep

Jump ball: What if the Wizards hadn't traded the 5th pick in the 2009 draft?
By Washington Post editors

In last night's postgame wrap-up, Michael Lee brought up a provocative point. The Warriors' Stephen Curry scorched the Wizards with 29 points, nine rebounds and five assists.

If you recall, Curry thought that the Wizards were going to take him with the 5th overall pick in the 2009 NBA draft before they shipped the pick to Minnesota for Randy Foye and Mike Miller. "That was definitely a spot that was on my radar," Curry said last season after his first game against the Wizards. ...
But whenever you see Curry, you have to take a step back and wonder, what if. As in, what if the Wizards had taken a different philosophy two years ago and decided to add some talented young players, in Curry and DeJuan Blair, to their veteran core instead of just getting two established players. They were able to recover and get Wall last summer, but would you rather just have Wall or some combination of Curry, Blair and a top five pick from the 2005 NBA draft....DeMarcus Cousins? Wesley Johnson? Just something to ponder.
What do you think? Should the Wizards have taken a different path?

Now, I know this is a Skins' thread, but I wanted to test this out and see if I nailed it.

Math check. Atogwe made something like $8M or $9M after being tagged twice. $26M is not a single season payout. [Also, I agree that D Hall is overpaid.]

btw, Atogwe is not THAT old. He's from the same draft class as Carlos Rogers and Jason Campbell. Those two aren't necessarily move around on walkers.

Posted by: dcsween | March 3, 2011 10:13 PM | Report abuse

Atogwe's franchise tender from the Rams 2 years ago was $6.34 mill.

Last year his tender would have been close to $7mill (6.9 something), but he didn't sign that and instead negotiated a contract. The Rams released him b/c he was due $8mill this year and they did not want to pay him that.

BTW - I do not want to re-sign Carlos Rogers, nor would I include him or Campbell in any of my rebuilding projects.

So we just gave a 5 year contract to a guy that you acknowledge is entering the end of his prime, and you think that's a good signing at the right price for a team in total rebuild mode?

Not following the logic there.

A team that is rebuilding does not have a wealth of proven veteran players with a stable of young hungry developments projects behind them.

If a team had that makeup, then it wouldn't be "rebuilding". It would be "reloading" - the way the Pats, Colts and Eagles have done over the past decade.

A team that is rebuilding has a select core of young talented players that can be molded together and, once established, you continue to add pieces around it through draft and select veteran FAs.

Once again, I submit the following question to the blog:

How much should we ultimately spend on our secondary?

DHall - $50 mill
Atogwe - $26 mill
LL30 - FA after this year.
CB #2 -

Keep in mind that the highest paid safties in the NFL are currently making about $7mill/season.

Posted by: p1funk | March 3, 2011 10:05 PM | Report abuse

Right. We're paying more like $5 mill/season for a guy who is still in his prime, just not at the start of his prime.

As evidenced by guys like Dawkins (and the argument that guys like Shawn Springs, Champ Bailey, and Fred Smoot should convert to FS because they've gotten old and lost a step), 29-33/34 may not be that old for a high-performance FS. In fact, that would make him in his prime, but at the back end of his prime. I mean, it's not like we're signing a 33 year old FS at $8 million per year, making him the highest paid at his position.

That would be reloading. Could be a lot worse.

Did we just add a massive upgrade to our secondary? Yes. Do I give a damn what we're paying our total secondary when we're $42 million under the projected cap? No. You're acting like this is 2007 and Sam Mendes is one burrito away from a coronary because we're $.05 from being over the salary cap and because Vinny Cerrato is his boss. For the next 5 years. Relax, funky baby.

Does this mean that we have at least 2 options that could suffice as young middle of the pack starters backing up our starting FS should he go down? Yes. A plus in my book. That makes Barnes, Moore, Doughty, and Horton as back up safeties. Solid.

You should be more worried about what we're doing at CB. This signing does not handcuff us in that regard.

You're pimping this "total rebuild" like it's 1997 and it takes 3-5 years to do it. I think we can do it in 1-3 years, and signings like this do nothing but help the cause.

The point is that he's going to be exiting his prime at some point over the next 5 years. We can reasonably agree to that. Sure, folks like to throw around Ed Reed and Brian Dawkins (not that he's helped the Broncos win anything), but it's not a reasonably fair expectation to say "hey, let's assume this guy is going to parallel the exceptional standouts at his position/age".

So when we are in rebuild mode, he's likely going to be exiting his prime at around the same time that the rest of the team is entering it.

Then what...

When we could, very well, go ahead and try to continue to develop one of our younger prospects with real PT and have a better chance that they'll be entering their prime when the rest of the team is as well...and doing it at a cheaper clip.

And you should care about how much we are spending on our secondary.

LL30 is going to cost a boatload of cash if we want to keep him. Assuming he has the great season, we all expect, he's going to demand a contract at least equal to Eric Berry and probably in line with what Polamalu is going to make.

Once you spend the money it's gone, and we've got about 11-12 starting positions to fill out on this squad including entire units like 3-4 positions on our Oline and a #1 and #2 WR.

We've already got a pricey playmaking CB and a soon-to-be pricey playmaking SS. How much more do we need to invest in the secondary while Anthony Armstrong is the best WR on our roster?

So when we are in rebuild mode, he's likely going to be exiting his prime at around the same time that the rest of the team is entering it.

Then what…

Then if the guys we have backing him up are any good, we've resigned them to reasonable contracts and start them if/when
Antogwe leaves/fails. Again, need the details of this new contract.

It's not an either/or proposition. Barnes and Moore can grow with this team and start at some point down the line. I don't see other teams chasing these guys at any point soon; if they do, trade them for future picks.

True, I was being cavalier about what we're investing in our secondary. We have a lot of other positions of need, including WR. But we did not break the bank on this guy. I see a break from recent history, which is in and of itself encouraging.

But we do need some good vets on our squad, and I just don't see a better FS on our roster or in rounds 4-7 of this draft. Do you?

My preference would be to let Kareem Moore and Kevin Barnes compete for the position.

In fairness to Moore, he was a first year starter who was rushed back from knee surgery. Also, assuming that LL30 is going to stay healthy, I don't think Moore will find himself in as many vulnerable positions against the run.

Barnes appears to have the skill set to play FS and acquitted himself pretty well in the limited chances he had.

I don't think either of these young guys got a truly fair shake to win or lose the opportunity to start.

It's a team at a young stage of rebuilding; I'd like to give a fair shot to roll with our own younger draft picks.

Posted by: p1funk | March 3, 2011 9:10 PM

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I was high on Kareem Moore coming out of college but he was injured then and injured again. He took poor angles, tackled poorly, and will be, at best, a good backup. As far as Barnes goes, well, he's a CB. We've got enough guys playing out of position and there's no guarantee that he'll be any good. And who, besides the coach, can he learn from? No one (until now.) Not a solution. If these guys are young talent then they can only benefit from Atogwe being on this team.

"The Redskins can buy McNabb out of his impending contract extension for $3.75 million,. an option they'll undoubtedly elect to take. Backup Rex Grossman was not the answer, either: His -19.4% passing DVOA was far worse than McNabb, who put up a 0.1% DVOA before being benched."

"Even if the Redskins do draft a quarterback...don't expect Mike Shanahan to start a rookie from Day One...With the team likely to run a variant of the West Coast offense, there are three available veteran quarterbacks that could step in with experience in the scheme. One is Kolb, but it's hard to imagine the Redskins trading more draft picks for yet another Eagles quarterback after the Eagles failure. That leaves them with two unrestricted free agents. Matt Hasselbeck's contract with the Seahawks is up, and Seattle will likely choose to go with Charlie Whitehurst or a drafted quarterback of their own. Hasselbeck had a -9.8% DVOA last year while struggling with injuries, but the Redskins would provide him with the best offensive line he's played behind since the halcyon days of Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson."

"The other candidate with significant experience in the West Coast offense? We hesitate to say his name for fear that he'll appear again. Let's just say he holds a lot of records, is really fond of one particular brand of jeans, and recently retired again. Few organizations would be willing to take on the sort of circus that he brings to the table, and even fewer teams would actually get an upgrade from his likely level of play. The Redskins are perhaps the only organization who would fit in both categories, and with Brett Favre, retirement is just a state of mind. Oops."

"Hasselbeck had a -9.8% DVOA last year while struggling with injuries, but the Redskins would provide him with the best offensive line he's played behind since the halcyon days of Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson."

I thought the Redskins had/have one of the worst offensive lines in the league?

Hmmm....

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the Skins' problems on offense don't stem from the o-line. Look behind the center to see where everything originates.

I don't understand how some of you are mad. We just signed OJ Atogwe!
- Great football player
- Better than what we currently have
- Not over the hill
- Not a doosh (as far as I know)
- We didn't throw money at him like FA's in the past

And why are some of you talking about 2013? I understand it's a rebuild, but cherish the moment here. At least we actually made a good signing, be happy!

I know some up here don't like the signing, but the only thing I don't like about it is that it didn't happen LAST offseason. Looks to me like we got him for a fair, market value price and considering we haven't seen the guaranteed money yet, it's probably not much...which means if it's not working after a couple years, we can cut ties with minimal damage to the cap. Good to see us making moves like a REAL organization for a change...

Now the question becomes what number will he wear...I see there was quite a bit of debate over whether he should keep his #21 at the expense of our dearly departed Sean Taylor. In my mind, the team has done right by ST at every turn...they put him in the ring of honor, set up a display in his honor in the stadium, and seem to have done right by his family. To me, the team's stance on numbers has always been lame...either retire a number or don't. This taking stuff outta circulation is stupid and they need to sh*t or get off the pot when it comes to that. If we retired the number of every damn player to play in a SB or a Pro-Bowl, we'd have more retired numbers than the Celtics. ST was on pace to be great, but in all actuality had only one great year for us...and even that was cut short by his tragic demise.

Nobody's worn #21 for 3 years now. Hardly anyone on that '07 team is left, particularly his "U" buddies Portis and Moss. Time to turn the page and free up that jersey number.

Good signing. Now they need to go get Jamal Williams...solid veteran NT who's from the DC area and would probably come at a reasonable price to man the most important spot in our defense until we can draft one.

Exactly Beep...maybe it's just me, but I have a more stingent code for what constitutes permanently enshrining a guy's number. Whatever the code is, I can't imagine how playing less than 4 years and making 2 Pro Bowls can meet it. Retiring Sammy Baugh's and Darrell Green's are no-brainers to me...beyond that, it's kinda iffy IMO.

With holes to fill all over the roster, the bottom line is the Redskins got better with the signing of free agent free safety O.J. Atogwe on Thursday. The Redskins are expected to pair Atogwe, who was predominantly a free safety in six seasons with the Rams, with strong safety LaRon Landry.

“They were the worst tackling secondary in football,” says NFL Network analyst Brian Baldinger of the move. ”Atogwe is a play-maker, and also a good tackler. It’s a very good signing for Washington. I think he’s a very good player, a smart player and a crafty player. He’s active, has a good knack for putting his helmet on the ball.”

By one count, Atogwe, 29, has accounted for the third-most turnovers (16 forced fumbles, 21 interceptions) in the NFL since the start of the 2006 season, behind only Charles Woodson (43) and Ed Reed (39). With an unheralded crop at the position when the free agent market opens and what is widely considered a week draft class at safety – top prospect Rahim Moore of UCLA might not go until the second round — the Redskins moved quickly.

At the very least, the Redskins got a player they’re familiar with — Atogwe played three seasons (2006-08) for defensive coordinator Jim Haslett when he held the same title in St. Louis.

And not that good either. He got very lucky in his rookie season. The interceptions he got came from the ball flying straight into his hands. He didn't break on the pass route, make any ground or show an elite sense of positioning in the rest of the games he played. He got lucky on a grand total of 3-occasions.

The fact that he caught all 3 puts him a step ahead of Carlos Rogers in the hands department but he is nothing more than a journeyman strong safety.

During the summer, the storyline seemed plausible: The Redskins had two young safeties who were bonding and would develop into playmakers. LaRon Landry lived up to that billing.
Kareem Moore did not.

And that's why O.J. Atogwe is in Washington today. The Redskins signed Atogwe to a five-year deal worth a reported $26 million. He's never made a Pro Bowl, and he might not be a top-10 safety. But he is solid.

"We definitely needed a safety," Redskins defensive end Vonnie Holliday said. "He works hard and is a smart player.

Perhaps Moore would have developed. But he showed no signs of great improvement in his first season as a starter, slowed by a bad knee that required surgery in August. That didn't help. But that also wasn't the reason he took numerous bad angles in run support, nor could it explain all the missed tackles. And durability remains an issue.

Atogwe, an OK tackler, is a ballhawk with 22 career interceptions (though only five in the past two seasons). It stems from his instincts, which, paired with cornerback DeAngelo Hall, give Washington two such players in the secondary. Atogwe's instincts are excellent.

But how much of an upgrade is this for the defense? It's an improvement at safety, but until the Redskins find a nose tackle and improve the pass rush at linebacker, it will be a second-tier unit.

However, there could be limited ways to get better this offseason if there's an extended lockout and free agency is affected. The Redskins jumped when they had their first chance at improvement. Their next opportunity may not come for a while.

And not that good either. He got very lucky in his rookie season. The interceptions he got came from the ball flying straight into his hands. He didn't break on the pass route, make any ground or show an elite sense of positioning in the rest of the games he played. He got lucky on a grand total of 3-occasions.

The fact that he caught all 3 puts him a step ahead of Carlos Rogers in the hands department but he is nothing more than a journeyman strong safety.

Posted by: WeNeedLinemen | March 4, 2011 6:35 AM

Only a partial co-sign here...his rookie year, his two INT game was a fluke because both picks came on tipped passes that literally fell into his hands. He had one great read in the Dallas game and he baited Romo into a pick...that play actually led to a score and set us up for an upset win in Dallas. But your point is still taken...one great read in 3 years isn't something to write home about. I'm actually a bit surprised he made the roster this year...

Anyone know anything about the two defensive linemen that were cut by the Broncos, seems to me they were cut because Fox is going back to a 4-3 not because they couldn't play.

Is one of those guys a NT?

Posted by: Flounder21 | March 4, 2011 6:49 AM

Yessir...Jamal Williams (did I mention he's a DC native?) was a Pro-Bowl NT for years in SD before his one-and-done in Denver. Should be another relatively low-cost/high reward signing for the Skins if he's healthy.

He is an older player (about 34, I think)...but for a year or two, he can man that spot until we can draft a guy. This could at least free us up to go OLB/QB or QB/OLB in the draft this year if necessary.

As for Bannan, he's a nice piece at DE...if I'm not mistaken, he played DE/OLB for the Ravens as well, so he's a versatile player that's a great fit in the 3-4. I'd kick his tires, but I think there may be some injury concerns there.

The chatter doesn't bother him because he knows he'll get a shot. So let the Redskins talk about wanting a pass-rushing linebacker opposite Brian Orakpo -- coach Mike Shanahan put it atop his list. Let them even draft one or sign one in free agency. Lorenzo Alexander has a plan that he says can help solve the Redskins' pass-rushing woes.

It involves himself, of course.

But it also involves losing weight, doing MMA training and applying lessons learned in his first year at linebacker.

If the Redskins don't draft a linebacker ... and there's limited free agency ... and they can't find another pass-rusher, then Alexander's plan could provide him chances at the position. Will it be enough? Don't know. But Alexander hopes that's the case.

Alexander, who started 11 games this season, said he's already lost at least 10 pounds -- he's between 255-260 now -- just doing Pilates, P90X, riding his bike and watching his diet. He'll soon start doing MMA training with ex-Redskin linebacker Eddie Mason.

"Fighters have great stamina," Alexander said. "I'll see if I can bring another couple extra gears to my game. That's what I'm trying to do, working on leverage and pass rush. I wasn't playing any third downs at the end; I have to prove I'm able to do it."

Washington's problem is that the best pass-rushing linebacker in the draft is Von Miller and he'll likely be gone by the tenth pick. The best pass-rushers in free agency -- assuming it occurs this year -- will be tough to get because teams don't let players like that leave without a big fight.

But what Alexander doesn't want is a heavy load again. Last season he also played almost all of the special teams. Hamstring issues plagued him late in 2010, too, and he appeared to wear down.

"At some point we have to make a decision either you have me play special teams or play outside linebacker," Alexander said. "I was always fatigued. Whatever I do, I'll excel at it. But I can't do everything."

What he's not doing is worrying about a possible replacement in the starting lineup.

"If they decide to draft a guy or bring someone in, I can't worry about that," Alexander said. "I'll continue to cut my weight so I'm more explosive and faster. I'll get opportunities so it's really up to me."

Frank Tadych - "With an unheralded crop at the position when the free agent market opens and what is widely considered a week draft class at safety – top prospect Rahim Moore of UCLA might not go until the second round — the Redskins moved quickly."

This signing makes us better AND eliminates the ugly prospect of the Redskins drafting this kid and setting up a heated abreviated training camp position battle between Kareem and Rahim Moore at FS. Nobody needed that.

Right Flound...dude played all 16 games last season after losing 2009 to injury so he should be a good get at least for 2011. Good locker room guy, great experience, seems to have all the intangibles...hope we can reel him in for a good price. If Williams, Atogwe, and Jacoby Jones are the only FAs we sign all year, I'd be OK with that...

Anyone else see that the Chargers got Bob Sanders? I'm stunned they even kicked his tires...they tend to stay away from FA like it's the plague. If he can stay healthy (and that's a BIG if), that's a great get for them...

ih8, what have you seen in AB that would lead you to believe he's worth making the centerpiece of our D? I like him in rotation as a key backup, but at best he's still got a lot to prove...

Final point: it looks like the FO intended to sign both Shaun Rogers AND Otogwe.

Posted by: MistaMoe | March 4, 2011 7:29 AM

I'm not being a smart ass but actually asking you to show your work on this one...how do you figure the FO "intended to sign both Shaun Rogers AND Atogwe"? Atogwe I get, but what makes you think Rogers?

Free Agency is over for now, as is all NFL business if I'm not mistaken.

Posted by: iH8dallas | March 4, 2011 7:30 AM |

Not true FA really hasn't begun yet, the guys that are out there now were cut so they can be signed by any team until the CBA ends which is not until 12:00 tonight. The experts are saying that will be pushed back 7-10 more days, so the players that were cut can still be signed by other teams.

You can say the skins intended to sign Shaun Rogers because when he signed with the Saints he said he could've made more money with another team, but chose to go to a team that wins.

And the redskins were the only other team he visited.

Putting the puzzle together is just that easy, my friend.

Posted by: MistaMoe | March 4, 2011 7:44 AM

Ok, gotcha. But the Skins and Saints weren't his only suitors...he talked to the Chiefs and I think there was some mild interest from Houston (who's switching to a 3-4). Of all those teams, seems to me the Skins would be the most likely of them all to offer up a $6 million contract...but it's all moot at this point since he's now a Saint.

My hope is that we get Jamal Williams...doesn't have the injury history or red flags that Rogers has anyway, so he might just be the better signing if we can pull it off. He'll likely come cheaper, too...

A NT rotation of A Bryant, Shaun Rogers, and a rookie is what makes sense.

It sure does.

As more teams play the 3-4, the market and value for nose tackles will creep up.

Colleges have signalled the change in philosophy as the high number of very athletic defensive lineman in the draft suggests teams decided to converth their best athletic big high school kids to defenders, not pass blockers.

And hese guys aren't just fat tubs of goo: if you ever watch defensive line play, nose tackles today often drift back into coverage.

And when you're doing that with guys who weight 320 pounds, you need more than one: 3 is nice if that can all play.

I was ecstatic when I saw this last night, I almost droppped my sock!!!

Seriously, this solidifies our Safety position. Landry can rome the line of scrimmage, and Doughty is a decent backup at SS, his problem was trying to be a FS.

O.J. gives us a decent tackler and 'angel' in the defensive backfield, hopefully no more 'double move' jokes up in here for a while! Moore I think can be a solid backup, he's young and can still be coached up. He needs to go back to the fundamentals of tackling!

Maybe this move makes other Free Agents want to come here. I know we are still far away from having a great defense, but this was a big step in the right direction.

I just saw a mock draft that had us trading back to 18th with the Chargers and getting there 2nd round pick. That would not be bad loosing 8 spots in the 1st to pick up another 2nd.

Posted by: Flounder21 | March 4, 2011 8:17 AM

Wow...I would take that deal running and giggling back to the war room. We could get a stud NT with the 1st round pick, get one of the project QBs with our 2nd rounder, and probably be able to land some quality LB help with the Bolts' 2nd rounder. For the love of God DO IT BRUCE!!!

If you had the choice, would you line OJ on Halls side to play Free or on Rogers?

I figure,you put him on Rogers to increase the chance of picks on either side of the ball. But when it gets to 3rd down, put him on Halls side so someone will actually Cover the WR's, not allow the catch and then whiff on a tackle.

Maybe I'm jaded because he was such an epic fail on my fantasy team last season, but he seems like Brandon Lloyd-esque move to me...dude had a nice '09 season but was way below expectations in '10. He's young and athletic--which is good--but I don't think he's consistent enough to warrant the #1 WR money he's sure to want. I'd rather draft a guy and add Jacoby Jones than go with Sims-Walker...but that's just me...

brown, see my post about MSW as a #2, if not #3....I realize the season, if its played at ALL, if 6 plus months away, but we've got AA, TA, BB, and --, and -- as the wideouts on this team...right now, they should be looking at every, and ANY option out there...

The only plausible scenario I see is one of the QBs falling to 10 and the Vikings offering a 1 + 3 to move up.

Posted by: mattsoundworld | March 4, 2011 8:35 AM

If the Vikings come to us for #10 in an attempt to get one of the project QB's, the only correct response should be..."What will it take to put you into a Donovan McNabb right here and now? He likes Prince and looks good in purple. This man was made to be a Viking.".

If you had the choice, would you line OJ on Halls side to play Free or on Rogers?

I figure,you put him on Rogers to increase the chance of picks on either side of the ball. But when it gets to 3rd down, put him on Halls side so someone will actually Cover the WR's, not allow the catch and then whiff on a tackle.

The D alignment stems from the O alignment, e.g. the strong safety is going to typically be on the side where the TE lines up. Part of the SS's job in run coverage is to take on the extra blocker on that side of the field.

Hall and Rogers will line up depending on where the matchups take them, but in general you want your strong CB to handle his business on the side with the SS because he may have to step up and cover a TE, blitz, or whatever. But in those situations, you are probably talking about 3 deep or playing man press with the FS rolling to the most likely hot route.

If the Vikings come to us for #10 in an attempt to get one of the project QB's, the only correct response should be..."What will it take to put you into a Donovan McNabb right here and now? He likes Prince and looks good in purple. This man was made to be a Viking.".

Can't remember who up here was so high on Gallery (was it you pfunk?), but it looks like he's gotta get a reality check before he falls in line with our salary structure:

Raiders say Robert Gallery priced himself out of Oakland
Posted by Michael David Smith on March 4, 2011, 8:43 AM EST

Robert Gallery will not return to the Oakland Raiders in 2011 because of what he calls a “mutual agreement” — and what the team calls an example of a player overestimating his worth.

“The only thing that was mutually agreed upon is his numbers were way out of line with ours,” Raiders senior executive John Herrera said.

According to Herrera, Gallery asked the Raiders for a new contract paying him $8 million a year. The Raiders were offering him $2.5 million. So, yeah, I’d say a difference of $5.5 million a year is “way out of line.”

Gallery has been very well paid since the Raiders made him the second overall pick in the 2004 NFL draft, and although he’s been a regular starter at guard, overall he’d have to be considered a disappointment: Coming out of Iowa he was widely viewed as the league’s next great left tackle. He’s been far short of that.

On his way out, Gallery had only positive things to say about the Raiders.

“With the end of the league year coming today, and the few conversations I’ve had with the Raiders and Mr. Davis, we’ve come to a mutual agreement that it’s time for me to move on with my career,” Gallery told ESPN’s Adam Schefter. “I appreciate the start that they and Mr. Davis gave me and I truly have enjoyed my time wearing the silver and black. I wish them well, I thank the fans and I take away great memories of my time in Oakland.”

brown, see my post about MSW as a #2, if not #3....I realize the season, if its played at ALL, if 6 plus months away, but we've got AA, TA, BB, and --, and -- as the wideouts on this team...right now, they should be looking at every, and ANY option out there...

Posted by: BeantownGreg1 | March 4, 2011 8:44 AM

I hear ya Greg...just sayin' Sims-Walker isn't gonna be worth the coin he's sure to want. If his asking price comes down, that's one thing...I just don't think that A) you can count on him as a #1 WR and B) he's gonna be worth what it's gonna take to sign him. Hell, I'd almost rather take a chance on James Jones than Sims-Walker...

So you tell me, if the Chargers come knocking, why would you do them a favor and take equal value? It's got to be a sellers market.

Now, 1 + 2 + 4 and you have a deal, but I can't imagine the Chargers (or anyone) investing 3 picks to get 1. They are set at QB, and if Julio Jones is there (the only other player people might be drooling over), then I want him in DC more than I want whatever scrub I can pick up in the 4th.

McNabb is our qb in 2011, we might as well face it. We have too too many holes. If we get miller or Quin and a NT in this draft and at least one OL in FA we doin good. Still, if we give in to popular opinion, Julio Jones would be a fantastic pick-up. One of the best thing about having so many needs to fill is that we are really in a position to get the best impact player available.

We may not see the playoffs next season but we very likely will field a team that is interesting to watch.

"A NT rotation of A Bryant, Shaun Rogers, and a rookie is what makes sense."

No it doesn't.
Shaun Rogers is a malcontent that is going to play RE in a 4-3 this year. We already have a tubby 360 pounder that dosent want to play NT. Not sure why people still talkin bout this tub.
And A Bryant played well but he is still a number 2 until he shows other wise. Getting a starting NT out of this draft will be spotty at best and costly for the couple will be available.

Time to realize that we just arent going to get the NT spot hammered down unless there is some luck or some serious investment.

Cant complain about Atogwe. I still claim that the only reason Haslett is out DC is due to Atogwes stellar play duing his tenure as DC in St loius. Mainly OJ's pick six to beat us.
Those are the kind of things that Snyder remembers.

But anyways perfect compliment for Landry. We resign Rogers and stay healthy and i cant complain about our secondary for a sec.

So do I. I keep seeing pass rushing linebackers falling into the second round but I only see 2 good 3-4 defensive ends and they are both mocked to go in the first. If Von Miller and Robert Quinn are gone (and they should be) I'd much rather have Cameron Jordan or JJ Watt than Akeem Ayers or Aldon Smith.

stu, Snyder signed Archuletta too right...so on one hand you claim that Snyder was the one who hired Haslett, then you come back and cite Bruce Allen as the one who did...I'm gonna drop out of this, and let you argue with yourself.....

Cant complain about Atogwe. I still claim that the only reason Haslett is out DC is due to Atogwes stellar play duing his tenure as DC in St loius. Mainly OJ's pick six to beat us.
Those are the kind of things that Snyder remembers.

Posted by: Stu27 | March 4, 2011 9:20 AM

Wow...you're on a roll today, dude.

(end sarcasm)

I was at the game you're talking about...Haslett was interim HC, not the DC. And the Atogwe score was on a fluke fumble return, not a pick 6.

Not to mention, that play happened at the end of the 1st half...hardly a game-clincher.

To quote Brian Fantana, "Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you sit this next one out, stop talking for a while..."

Michael Lombardi has us taking Aldon Smith at #10...anyone got a book on this guy?

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 9:00 AM
------------------------------------------
Sounds crazy to me. The guy is a very light 3-4 defensive end (6'4", 263 lbs) that will have to bulk up, or he would be transitioned to linebacker. Either way, couldn't see him being much of a contributor in year one. I think he's a real reach at #10. I'm still liking a nose tackle in the first round, but they can trade down. Having said that, Julio Jones would be a nice pick at #10 and they can use their 2nd on a nose tackle. A lot depends on free agency.

Raiders say Robert Gallery priced himself out of OaklandPosted by Michael David Smith on March 4, 2011, 8:43 AM EST

Robert Gallery will not return to the Oakland Raiders in 2011 because of what he calls a “mutual agreement” — and what the team calls an example of a player overestimating his worth...

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 8:53 AM

The Raiders have not been shy about writing checks. If they say one of their players is overestimating his worth--especially a 30 year old guy drafted #2 overall who has toyed with the "bust" label--that's saying something.

I'm actually surprised about how/why Doughty has been around as long as he has. Maybe its just something that coordinators and position coaches see that I don't (like that ever happens). Maybe he's invisible or something (like a lineman) and does his job, sticks with his responsibilities, is super smart, such as.

Someone (RSH) talked about not having a ballhawk since Sean Taylor. Until his final year, however, I always thought Taylor's coverage skills were a little suspect. [I don't remember for sure, but I think that that year or the year before was the Lust For Mayhem year ... Taylor, Landry, and McIntosh ALL used to go for the kill shot and overpursue, etc.].

I'm thinking Kareem Moore probably is on that same trajectory. Moore's path here is the same as Ryan Clark's (about the same round). Moore has the wonky knee, but I think he still has plenty of upside.

I think all of those guys are still under contract (maybe not Doughty), so I see all of them as ham sandwiches that could be added to a trade package (e.g., to close the deal on moving McNabb or Haynesworth). Minus Macho Harris, who I know nothing about and seemed like in-season training camp fodder.

With my hamster-length short term memory, I'm kind of forgetting what it was like when Horton and Moore were on the field. I don't recall that either was on the field at the same time (maybe not even active in the same games).

Can someone tell me who could possibly be our nose tackle? Casey Hampton and B.J. Raji are really special players, and in my view neither of those 3-4 defenses can run without them. I never thought Haynesworth would be right for that position (and think we should just dump him now), and am not sold on Kemoeatu. This should probably be our no. 1 pick in the draft. Whom do we have our sights set on?

Can someone tell me who could possibly be our nose tackle? Casey Hampton and B.J. Raji are really special players, and in my view neither of those 3-4 defenses can run without them. I never thought Haynesworth would be right for that position (and think we should just dump him now), and am not sold on Kemoeatu. This should probably be our no. 1 pick in the draft. Whom do we have our sights set on?

Posted by: ChazMockington | March 4, 2011 9:48 AM | Report abuse

i think if the skins are able to drop down between the 15-25 range, phil taylor would be the ideal choice

if things remain the way they are, jerrell powe or sione fua would be a great pickup in the second round imho

I think what we should all hope for is overall improvement from our safeties.

There was an interesting presentation on NFL Playbook (NFL Network) about how the redskin defense failed--among other things--because the safeties were either often out of position or just poor tacklers.

They were really exposed in the Giants' game were they and the linebackers over ran a lot of pays.

That's too bad...dude should be able to keep his number. If the team wants to put a 5 year moratoriam on #21, I can live with that...but to take a number out of circulation is stupid if you're not gonna retire it. Instead of agonizing over when to wear gold pants, BA should get on the task of fixing that debacle once and for all...

The Raiders have not been shy about writing checks. If they say one of their players is overestimating his worth--especially a 30 year old guy drafted #2 overall who has toyed with the "bust" label--that's saying something.

Michael Lombardi has us taking Aldon Smith at #10...anyone got a book on this guy?

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 9:00 AM
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Sounds crazy to me. The guy is a very light 3-4 defensive end (6'4", 263 lbs) that will have to bulk up, or he would be transitioned to linebacker.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | March 4, 2011 9:40 AM

Doesn't sound that crazy. Elvis Dumervil is 5'11" 248 lbs and did just fine in Denver's 3-4. The other day, someone posted a link about how, above a certain height, offensive tackles are at a disadvantage because on the line "the low man wins".

Everything I've read says Von Miller never makes it past the Cardinals (at #5) under any scenario ... and that the run on defenders starts right away ... top ten picks being made up of 2 QBs, 1 or 2 CBs, and 6 or 7 DE/DT/3-4 OLBs, plus 1 or 2 WRs. Obviously, that's too many for ten picks ... and ideally one of the receivers falls to #10 ... and there is a team (RAMS at #14!) willing to swap ... which is about where Aldon Smith might be. If there is another team willing to swap, then maybe that's the range for NT.

To me, Skins need a DRAFT PICK WORTHY nose tackle. [I know others see this differently.] To collapse a pocket, it just needs to set. The NT needs to make the interior constipated, though collapsing from the interior would be nice (esp. against teams that don't have scrambling QB), it doesn't seem as flexible a defense as one that can collapse and/or sack from the edges.

Sorry for the zcezcest-length posts this morning. I feel like time right be running out on this CBA and thus my posting up here.

That's too bad...dude should be able to keep his number. If the team wants to put a 5 year moratoriam on #21, I can live with that...but to take a number out of circulation is stupid if you're not gonna retire it. Instead of agonizing over when to wear gold pants, BA should get on the task of fixing that debacle once and for all...

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 10:01 AM

Boy you sure are jumping the gun on that one dude. Atogwe tweeted last night that he wouldn't even ask to wear #21. It was his decision not the teams...it didn't even make it to the team. A little research would help you not seem so quick to jump on the team.

Shaun Rogers is a malcontent that is going to play RE in a 4-3 this year...

Posted by: Stu27 | March 4, 2011 9:16 AM

I think the plan is to put him in the middle next to Sedrick Ellis.

Also, on Atogwe's number, I think its gracious of him and a good idea, esp. because he actually has to develop a relationship with Landry who was getting a pretty tight relationship with the earlier #21. Just bad form to take the guy's number when other guys who played with him and knew him are still on the team. I get kind of raw just typing about it.

No thanks for me. He's like 36 and did not look that great out here in DEN last year, not to mention his injury issues lately.

If we are going to start building this thing from the inside out, NO to mid 30'2 linemen.

Posted by: WaitingGuilty | March 4, 2011 10:01 AM

Actually, he's 34...and his injury came in '09, in '10 he played all 16 games for the Broncos and played pretty well by all indications.

The only reason he's on the street now is because Denver is going back to a 4-3...no need for a 3-4 NT if that's the case. Nobody's saying break the bank for the guy...just kick his tires and see if you can get him for a fair contract that's low on guarantees and heavy on incentives. Especially if we can't get a NT in the draft.

Stu, if you're getting your detailed football info from Wikipedia, you've basically proved my point...stand on the sidelines until further notice...

Monk, seemed to me that Heyer played better at G last year than he ever did at T. I don't know if I'd want him there on a full time basis, but as a backup he can't be worse than he was as a starting RT...

Would you pay 2.5 mil a year for him to start at G for us brownwood???

Posted by: monk811 | March 4, 2011 9:10 AM

For 2.5 mill? Yes.

For the 8 million he's asking for? Hells no.

For 8 mil/per, you can get Logan Mankins. So why pay all that coin for Gallery when you can get the best LG in football?

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 9:19 AM |

This Gallery thing is a little off. My opinion is that RB's and lineman take the most pounding and therefor drop off at an earlier age. While 30 isn't necessarily a good age marker for QB's and DB's it is a pretty good mark for RB's and lineman and Gallery is 31.

I think what we should all hope for is overall improvement from our safeties.

There was an interesting presentation on NFL Playbook (NFL Network) about how the redskin defense failed--among other things--because the safeties were either often out of position or just poor tacklers.

They were really exposed in the Giants' game were they and the linebackers over ran a lot of pays.

Posted by: MistaMoe | March 4, 2011 10:00 AM
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This defense puts a lot of burden on the free safety. He's the last line of defense, and when you have a gambler like Hall out there, I think this just makes the job tougher for the free safety. Not making excuses for Moore. Tackling is a fundamental skill and he sucked at it. Not making excuses for Doughty. He's a good strong safety but is out of position at free because he doesn't have the speed. I would have liked to have seen Barnes get a little more time in the role, but this way he gets to contribute at corner, and that is where he will be needed - especially if they let Rogers walk and don't replace him. All in all, I think this is one of the best offseason moves the Redskins have made in a while. They didn't overpay and they definitely filled a need.

Atogwe tweeted last night that he wouldn't even ask to wear #21. It was his decision not the teams...it didn't even make it to the team. A little research would help you not seem so quick to jump on the team.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 4, 2011 10:04 AM | Report abuse

That's interesting, and it's the right move on Atogwe's part.

Any player that's coming here should think long and hard about whether they would even ask to wear #21, given the circumstances as to why it's available to being with and who was wearing it last.

For 8 mil/per, you can get Logan Mankins. So why pay all that coin for Gallery when you can get the best LG in football?

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 9:19 AM |

This Gallery thing is a little off. My opinion is that RB's and lineman take the most pounding and therefor drop off at an earlier age. While 30 isn't necessarily a good age marker for QB's and DB's it is a pretty good mark for RB's and lineman and Gallery is 31.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 4, 2011 10:10 AM | Report abuse

Gallery was on my offseason wish-list, but not at that price.

...especially with money drying up for other 30-year old FAs around Redskins park...

Sounds crazy to me. The guy is a very light 3-4 defensive end (6'4", 263 lbs) that will have to bulk up, or he would be transitioned to linebacker. Either way, couldn't see him being much of a contributor in year one. I think he's a real reach at #10. I'm still liking a nose tackle in the first round, but they can trade down. Having said that, Julio Jones would be a nice pick at #10 and they can use their 2nd on a nose tackle. A lot depends on free agency.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | March 4, 2011 9:40 AM | Report abuse

I think they said that Smith translates to a DE in a 4-3 or an OLB in a 3-4, so he would not be our DE.

The problem with NT is that we'd have to reach to get one at #10. The best one is the dude from Baylor.

He's not projected until the late 1st, early 2nd round. We could trade down to get him, or trade up to get him, but we're better off drafting an OLB with #10 and then take our chances at NT in the 2nd round.

OLB is our biggest need, so that's the main position we should pick there at #10, there are sooooo many good pass rushers this year, we've got to hit on one.

I wouldn't, however, be upset if we do draft Julio Jones at WR, he has that big body that Shanny likes, could turn out to be a decent #1 receiver in a year or 2.

Boy you sure are jumping the gun on that one dude. Atogwe tweeted last night that he wouldn't even ask to wear #21. It was his decision not the teams...it didn't even make it to the team. A little research would help you not seem so quick to jump on the team.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 4, 2011 10:04 AM

Ok, good for Atogwe then. My main point is that this team for years has had a lousy way of deal with retiring/not retiring numbers.

It's really easy: sh*t or get off the pot. Either retire it or don't. But this "out of circulation" stuff is moronic. Come up with a criteria for retiring numbers and stick to it. Taking numbers like 21 and 7 off the table is just totally unnecessary, IMO.

Can someone tell me who could possibly be our nose tackle? Casey Hampton and B.J. Raji are really special players, and in my view neither of those 3-4 defenses can run without them. I never thought Haynesworth would be right for that position (and think we should just dump him now), and am not sold on Kemoeatu. This should probably be our no. 1 pick in the draft. Whom do we have our sights set on?

Posted by: ChazMockington | March 4, 2011 9:48 AM | Report abuse

If you look at the draft there's 1 NT that has a first round grade. The problem is that he's not a dominating force like Rajji. He's a late first rounder. So taking him at #10 is a reach. After Phil Taylor there are 3 or 4 guys that are valued in the second and third round or even later. We don't have a 3rd or a 4th and I doubt any of them make it to the 5th. It makes sense to wait until the second round and grab a Stepehen Paea or Marvin Austin or even Jerrell Powe. Siona Fua is also a candidate.

Actually, he's 34...and his injury came in '09, in '10 he played all 16 games for the Broncos and played pretty well by all indications.

The only reason he's on the street now is because Denver is going back to a 4-3...no need for a 3-4 NT if that's the case. Nobody's saying break the bank for the guy...just kick his tires and see if you can get him for a fair contract that's low on guarantees and heavy on incentives. Especially if we can't get a NT in the draft.

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 10:09 AM | Report abuse

OK, you win on the age, but fact is he's 35 next month, so he's old and at the end of his career. And I don't know how many Broncos games you watch but he did not play well...the Broncos got dump-trucked on Defense last year, he was their starting NT. He was ineffective at worst, average at best.

NT is, IMO probably our biggest need right now, and something would have to go terribly wrong for us to not address that position with a high pick or good FA.

This Gallery thing is a little off. My opinion is that RB's and lineman take the most pounding and therefor drop off at an earlier age. While 30 isn't necessarily a good age marker for QB's and DB's it is a pretty good mark for RB's and lineman and Gallery is 31.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 4, 2011 10:10 AM
------------------------------------------
Scamp, I agree on the running backs. I think the offensive lineman durability question is a lot more difficult to answer. I think some offenses are "linemen-friendly". You take Shanny's offense that focuses more on zone blocking and you'll see guys last a lot longer. I give you Tom Nalen as an example. I think some stadiums are "linemen-adverse". I don't know if there is any official statistic on this, but I bet the Detroit Lions have one of the worse fields for linemen. The Saints are probably pretty bad and I think this is a reason why Brown came to Washington: to play on grass, and his years playing on turf in New Orleans are probably a reason why the team should think twice about re-signing him. I don't like Gallery as a free agent pickup, but I don't think the Raiders' field is that unfriendly to linemen. Plus, in that division, most of the games are on grass. I just don't think he is all of that. The guy has been an underachiever his entire career.

It's really easy: sh*t or get off the pot. Either retire it or don't. But this "out of circulation" stuff is moronic. Come up with a criteria for retiring numbers and stick to it. Taking numbers like 21 and 7 off the table is just totally unnecessary, IMO.

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 10:17 AM

I didn't see anywhere that it said 21 was off the table so I'm not sure where this argument is coming from. At this point, as far as I'm concerned, I really don't care...so whateves.

I think the best of the second-tier NTs may well turn out to be Ian Williams of Notre Dame. He's supposed to go round 4-5. Coming off a knee injury last season, but is a run-stopper who excels at holding up blockers. Not as imposing as Phil Taylor or Marvin Austin but a better all-round athlete.

I figure that Lichtensteiger has a roster spot, but maybe not necessarily at guard. The intergoogles say that his "natural" position is center.

On the other hand, I subscribe to Moe's view that the entire line gets better as they take more snaps together. Somewhere recently I read something about how the Skins line last offseason - T. Williams, Dockery, Rabach, BMW, and Hicks -- took over 1200 snaps together in the offseason. So with BMW out (heart clots) and Hicks over, Heyer in, then Dockery slow, the whole thing was a work in progress all season.

Anyway, the youngest guys on the line -- Wiliams, Montgomery, and Lichtensteiger SEEM like the guys to stick with. Add in this year's 4th round choice for Jammal Brown, that also represents a commitment. [Same as Jarmon on the other side of the line ... in the third round, he should be considered a most significant investment than Rob Jackson.] Odd man out would be the dancing foot stepper, Rabach.

Whether to replace him with a Lichtensteiger or a draft choice center is what they pay the talent scouts and film studiers for.

One reason Tavaris Jackson is out in Minnesota is because their HC and OC (Bill Musgrave) apparently like 2nd year player Joe Webb.

Said Musgrave: "I've been impressed with Joe. He's a great athlete and looks like he's got some composure and poise to him as well. He made some good decisions and some good judgments. I like the way he climbs up in the pocket, keeping his eyes downfield."

Musgrave also liked Webb's scrambling ability.

"Defensive coordinators have a tough time accounting for quarterbacks that can make plays with their legs," Musgrave said. "He seems to have that demeanor that you look for. I think the team gravitates towards him. I've enjoyed visiting with him so far on the phone in the short time that we've been here."

Musgrave added, "What is very tough for a young quarterback is reading the defenses in the NFL because they are distinctly different than college defenses, so it's quite a jump and quite an adjustment."

Musgrave had this to say about Patrick Ramsey: "Patrick has had a super career after coming out of Tulane. He's a sharp kid. He really started football a little bit late, he was a javelin thrower in high school, competed in the Pan-Am Games and he evolved to playing quarterback, so he did a good job in all sports."

Are the Vikes content going into the season with Joe Webb and Patrick Ramsey at QB?

I was once FS/SS, and liked how at SS you were in 'the box' or sprinting into coverage.

You had to be as mean as a linebacker and cover huge, but slow tight ends.

Posted by: MistaMoe | March 4, 2011 10:23 AM
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And I think Landry excels at strong. The problem with the safeties the Redskins had on the roster was they had a bunch of strong safeties - and then they had Moore. I'm not totally against Moore, but I think he has a lot to learn. He was a great practice player, but defenses learned how to out-physical him and get into his head. They've got a lot of safeties on the roster now, so I think we will see a few cuts before the start of the preseason.

The thing about these really enormous NT types -- they're not as effective as they look. Ngata is a wonderful lineman, but check out who is playing NT much of the time in that Baltimore defense -- it's Kelly Gregg. He succeeds because of leverage. He's able to keep his pads low and anchor effectively so the blockers can't turn him one way or the other. Not to say size isn't an advantage at the position, but size is probably less important than technique and a natural ability to stay low...

Come up with a criteria for retiring numbers and stick to it. Taking numbers like 21 and 7 off the table is just totally unnecessary, IMO.

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 10:17 AM

Whatever the criteria would be, seems like there would need to be an exception b/c it would be hard to articulate a criterion for "three year Pro-Bowlers, drafted high, starting careers as punks, then ripening into men, murdered midseason, inspiring December runs to playoffs (with the help of an ancient QBs who spend entire careers behind Trent Green)."

I can see this point of view but at this juncture I don't agree...if this is 2008 or 2009, I totally agree with that. But in 2011, with many of the guys that played here in '07 gone, I don't think it should loom quite as large. The FO has changed, the coaching staff has changed, and most of the roster has changed. I could see if ST had a long, storied career here...but he didn't. I loved him as a Redskin as much as anyone up here, but I'm not gonna change my view of what he actually was as a player just because he was tragically lost. At the end of the day, he played here 3 1/2 years, only about half of which at a high level. That's not enough to warrant permanently retiring #21, IMO. I think a 5 year moratorium is proper, and he's already in the ring of honor. Based on what he did as a Redskin, I think that's more than appropriate.

I get that some will disagree and that it's still a point of contention. Generally, I just don't believe in giving people more due than you would if they were still alive and I think some folks hold ST in a higher regard simply because he story ended tragically.

This Gallery thing is a little off. My opinion is that RB's and lineman take the most pounding and therefor drop off at an earlier age. While 30 isn't necessarily a good age marker for QB's and DB's it is a pretty good mark for RB's and lineman and Gallery is 31.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 4, 2011 10:10 AM
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Scamp, I agree on the running backs. I think the offensive lineman durability question is a lot more difficult to answer.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | March 4, 2011 10:23 AM | Report abuse

That's crazy, Olinemen have bigger bodies, they can be more durable than RB's.

Backs break down because they have smaller frames and bodies, and the defensive players are getting bigger and stronger every year.

Olinemen can play well into their 30's. Anthony Munoz, Ray Brown, there have been tons of examples of older linemen hanging on and still producing.

Chris Samuels was forced out because of his injury, did you think he was getting to where he couldn't play anymore?

The only thing that's valid here is some Left Tackles lose some of their quickness dealing with speed rushers, but they don't usually retire, they might switch to RT instead.

"Are the Vikes content going into the season with Joe Webb and Patrick Ramsey at QB?
And has Ramsey really had a super career?
Posted by: Alan4"

I'd be surprised if they didn't pick up a veteran QB. That's a contending club. McNabb, Hasselbeck, somebody like that. You're handing off to Peterson much of the time anyway. Unlike Washington, Minnesota has been able to protect the QB. The Vikes can draft somebody to understudy. I was surprised they passed on Clausen last season.

About Pat Ramsey: still the prettiest passer I've seen in a long time. But like Gibbs says, beware the guy who thinks he has to throw the ball through a wall -- he'll bounce them off his receivers, too.

This Gallery thing is a little off. My opinion is that RB's and lineman take the most pounding and therefor drop off at an earlier age. While 30 isn't necessarily a good age marker for QB's and DB's it is a pretty good mark for RB's and lineman and Gallery is 31.

Posted by: scampbell1975 | March 4, 2011 10:10 AM
------------------------------------------
Scamp, I agree on the running backs. I think the offensive lineman durability question is a lot more difficult to answer.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | March 4, 2011 10:23 AM | Report abuse

That's crazy, Olinemen have bigger bodies, they can be more durable than RB's.

Backs break down because they have smaller frames and bodies, and the defensive players are getting bigger and stronger every year.

Olinemen can play well into their 30's. Anthony Munoz, Ray Brown, there have been tons of examples of older linemen hanging on and still producing.

Chris Samuels was forced out because of his injury, did you think he was getting to where he couldn't play anymore?

The only thing that's valid here is some Left Tackles lose some of their quickness dealing with speed rushers, but they don't usually retire, they might switch to RT instead.

SAVE THE AGING LINEMEN!!!

Posted by: monk811 | March 4, 2011 10:34 AM
-----------------------------------------
Once again you are spouting off without reading what I said. I was saying linemen durability depends on type of offense and types of stadiums they normally play in. I pointed out that Tom Nalen lasted 14 years in Shanny's offense, which is a pretty good career for an offensive lineman.

Offensive linemen get a lot of sprains and strains. Mostly from pass blocking, including people falling on their legs and ankles, or cut blocking their knees from the side. Run blocking is safer. But it's basically sumo wrestling there in the middle. Somebody like Ray Brown is the exception not the rule -- yogi-like flexibility.

I like the signing despite OJ being 29. He played under Hazlenutt before and is plug-n-play. He will start whenever opening day/night is. Wouldn't it be great to actually draft a player at #10 that can also start this season assuming we have one - which I am assuming.

Cough-LIMEMEN-cough,cough-LINEMEN!

When you have a team built from the inside out, you don't need an all-universe QB.

So maybe you take aguy like, say, M Austin, add 20 pounds, and have a very athletic NT.

A guy like that will dominate.

Posted by: MistaMoe | March 4, 2011 10:37 AM
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Did you notice how much time Raji spent doing the cockroach on the ground when they played Philly? I don't dispute the guy's athleticism, but he doesn't fit Haslett's version of a 3-4 nose.

If Atogwe can arrive from another team understanding the sensitivity of wearing #21 to Skins fans, Skins management should surely feel comfortable retiring it.

Posted by: Alan4 | March 4, 2011 10:38 AM

I dunno. At some point, it might be OK to recycle the number. Sort of depends on how his historical memory develops. I've heard tell that JFK is much more popular as an assasinated dead president than he was as a live one.

Its still feels like a tiny dagger to my heart every time I see Ryan Torain running around in Ladell Betts' jersey ...

34 is a little old but if you can get him on the cheap he might be able to help develop the next NT.

Posted by: Flounder21 | March 4, 2011 7:18 AM | Report abuse

And help develop our young and/or converted ILBs and OLBs.

That's the overlooked value of some of these older vets. Sure they may not be around for an extended run, but having a couple positions locked down and played the way they should be played in this new system helps the young and inexperienced players learn and perfect their craft for the long haul.

He played DE in Clevland.
This is one of those times when someone lies about something gets called out and doesnt want o back it up.

HE PLAYED DE. but you keep harpin on it.

Posted by: Stu27 | March 4, 2011 10:18 AM

Seems like you're the one who keeps bringing it up. But since you're a glutton for punishment, here ya go:

"On February 29, 2008, Rogers was traded to the Cleveland Browns in exchange for Leigh Bodden and a 2008 3rd round pick Andre Fluellen.[5] The Browns run a 3-4 defense, as opposed to the 4-3 defense Rogers played in for Detroit, and Rogers became the Browns' 3-4 nose tackle. In 2008, Rogers finished with 76 tackles (61 solo), 4.5 sacks, and 4 pass deflections in 16 games and was selected as a Pro Bowl reserve. On November 30, 2009, Rogers was placed on Injured Reserve due to a broken leg. He finished the 2009 season with 36 tackles (27 solo), 2 sacks, and 1 pass deflection. During the 2010 offseason, Rogers was involved in trade rumors, but the Browns ultimately decided to keep him and move him to 3-4 defensive end, which is believed to better suit his skills than the nose tackle position."

And that's citing the same tired source you used.

I'll wait for the part where he can't play NT when he indeed played that spot for at least 2 f-ing seasons...and was a Pro-Bowl reserve in one of them.

Not to mention, they had the chance to move Rogers to DE in 2010 only because Rubin stepped up and showed he could be a good NT for Cleveland.

Besides...didn't this whole thing come up because you said Rogers would play DE in NO? A 3-4 DE = 4-3 DT for all intents and purposes. So even if you "win" this argument, it's only proving my initial point anyway.

On the top defenders in the draft (and assuming that Skins don't have a trading partner to trade for an assumed WR who "falls" to #10), then seems like the outside pressure opposite Orakpo could be either rush OLB or DE ... but, on balance, seems like needing to rely on Lorenzo Alexander is less troubling than needing to rely on Vonnie Holliday for the purposes of "rebuidling" ... so I'd fall off on the DE rather than rush OLB side of the fence.

Still, at #10, if they need to spend it, the choices are really about "best in show" rather than best in position, so just get the best guy. Thankfully there are no tight ends projected in the first round.

So maybe you take aguy like, say, M Austin, add 20 pounds, and have a very athletic NT.

A guy like that will dominate.

Posted by: MistaMoe | March 4, 2011 10:37 AM | Report abuse

I like Austin as a 3-4 DE. I know it sounds crazy cause he is a very large man. But dude can run.
he has incredible burst. I envision him lined up with Orakpo behind him.
Austin posted a 4.8 40 and looks extremely swift.

With Orakpo behind him it would be a pick your poison situation. You would have to overload that side. Probably wishful thinking.

That's the overlooked value of some of these older vets. Sure they may not be around for an extended run, but having a couple positions locked down and played the way they should be played in this new system helps the young and inexperienced players learn and perfect their craft for the long haul.

Posted by: RomoLongballs | March 4, 2011 10:46 AM

Great point...Nnamdi Asomugha still credits his time with Rod Woodson as a big reason why he's the lockdown CB he is today. While Atogwe isn't on that level, one could make the case that Jamal Williams could be that guy to help along our rookie NT/DE.

Once again you are spouting off without reading what I said. I was saying linemen durability depends on type of offense and types of stadiums they normally play in. I pointed out that Tom Nalen lasted 14 years in Shanny's offense, which is a pretty good career for an offensive lineman.

BRING OUT THE MONK????

Posted by: RedSkinHead | March 4, 2011 10:38 AM | Report abuse

Actually, jerk-off, it was mostly going against what scamp had to say about it. With that short temper of yours, I bet you are a beater, both of women and yourself cause you are lonely.

BTW, I like when you call me out. That could be a new song:

"Bring out the Monk, ba boom boom boom,

The SPG, I represent,
spouting schtick, to gals and gents,
but some of them are like babies crying in bed,
The biggest baby, IS REDSKINHEAD!!!"

Actually, jerk-off, it was mostly going against what scamp had to say about it. With that short temper of yours, I bet you are a beater, both of women and yourself cause you are lonely.

BTW, I like when you call me out. That could be a new song:

"Bring out the Monk, ba boom boom boom,

The SPG, I represent,
spouting schtick, to gals and gents,
but some of them are like babies crying in bed,
The biggest baby, IS REDSKINHEAD!!!"

Kinda catchy, I like it!!!

Posted by: monk811 | March 4, 2011 11:00 AM
------------------------------------------
I'll give you points for originality, but take away on lack of maturity. Look, don't put my post up there if you weren't reponding to it, and I won't feel like calling you out and trampling those tender little feelings you have.

Did you notice how much time Raji spent doing the cockroach on the ground when they played Philly?

Beg to differ.

The next time you watch the Green Bay v. Philly playoff game, you'll see that Raji was a 'spy' who floated to be in position to control Vick.

Too, he formed the middle of their 'picket fence' defense to take away checkdowns and shallow-crossing routes.

Using a NT in this way happens when a guy is very athletic AND big.

Posted by: MistaMoe | March 4, 2011 11:04 AM
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All I know is I saw him on his back way too much. Again, not taking away his athleticism, but he's not the space eating, pocket collapser that Haslet wants in his defense. Actually, I think Raji is used more like an end in Green Bay's defense. He usually doesn't line up over center. Look at Washington's nose tackles. When didn't they line up over center last year?

Posted by: monk811 | March 4, 2011 11:00 AM
------------------------------------------
I'll give you points for originality, but take away on lack of maturity. Look, don't put my post up there if you weren't reponding to it, and I won't feel like calling you out and trampling those tender little feelings you have.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | March 4, 2011 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Fair enough, but his post was right there with yours, didn't think it was a big deal including yours too. Remember, I'm lazy and don't feel like looking for the original post.

I don't really know what your problem with me is, but maybe it's better if we just ITA to each other. I thought over the past few weeks that we were having good football discussions, you broke my heart, sniff, sniff, sniff.....

Oh wait, I forgot, it's Fact Free Friday, not Fag Friday. I don't care how you feel about me or what you say.

Man, all you griping and b1tching d-bags don't even realize it's Friday and going to be perfect weather for after-work, top-shelf Margaritas at Lauriol Plaza on the roof deck.

We just signed a starter, in a position of need to a very reasonable deal and are in position to add more talent in this year's draft.

I love how idiots now determine a player's potential with this team based on what defense they played in college. Orakpo played in a 4-3 at Texas and made the pro bowl after playing in a 4-3 and then again last year after playing in a 3-4.

Jesus, am I speakin' Chinese?

Charlie Sheen has it right: If you can't process it, don't try....just sit back and enjoy the show.

I'm waiting for the RI Happy Hour so I can see all the blogging Fonzies and what straight 'ginas they are in real life.

b. a particular form of such arrangement, depending on either the kind or the number of feet constituting the verse or both rhythmic kind and number of feet (usually used in combination): pentameter; dactylic meter; iambic trimeter.

Huh i didnt even know Lauriol had a roof. Margaritas sound about right.

Posted by: Stu27 | March 4, 2011 11:19 AM |

The new one, which isn't really new (I think it opened in 2000) is awesome and has a killer deck overlooking 18th just below Adams Morgan. The old one a block down at 18th and S wasn't anything as nice.

...but he's (Raji) not the space eating, pocket collapser that Haslet wants in his defense. Actually,I think Raji is used more like an end in Green Bay's defense. He usually doesn't line up over center. Look at Washington's nose tackles.

Good stuff.

And I agree.

Seeing how the 'picket-fence' underneath coverage scheme with the NT drifting back to help sniff out under routes is gaining popularity, you wonder if taking a de-end you can bulk up is better than a pure, 330 pound NT.

The old Lauriol Plaza was much cheaper and made stiffer (and cheaper) pitchers of margaritas. Back when Adams Morgan used to be gritty ... before it became a northern extension of DuPont Circle ... back when Latin Americans used to live near Adams Morgan.

Does the Fox and the Hounds still put a bottle on the bar and charge by the refill of the glass of mixer?

The old Lauriol Plaza was much cheaper and made stiffer (and cheaper) pitchers of margaritas. Back when Adams Morgan used to be gritty ... before it became a northern extension of DuPont Circle ... back when Latin Americans used to live near Adams Morgan.

Does the Fox and the Hounds still put a bottle on the bar and charge by the refill of the glass of mixer?

Posted by: dcsween | March 4, 2011 11:40 AM |

Let me tell you something. The old LP sucked balls but I went there anyway. You know how to get a stiff drink? Ask for one while holding a 'Benji. There's not a bar on the planet you cannot get a stiff drink at.

I cannot even say I love the new one as it is a little shi-shi but on a nice day, it's a great spot.

I guess the other 'bags here will just pop a can of beast in the doorway and consider that a night out on the town.

...but he's (Raji) not the space eating, pocket collapser that Haslet wants in his defense.

Posted by: MistaMoe | March 4, 2011 11:33 AM |

There ain't that many of them out there. And the amount of exertion required wears them down. Like with Fatsworth. Better to have a plugger than a pusher and let the LBs and DEs break down the protection.

Sounds crazy to me. The guy is a very light 3-4 defensive end (6'4", 263 lbs) that will have to bulk up, or he would be transitioned to linebacker.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | March 4, 2011 9:40 AM

Doesn't sound that crazy. Elvis Dumervil is 5'11" 248 lbs and did just fine in Denver's 3-4. The other day, someone posted a link about how, above a certain height, offensive tackles are at a disadvantage because on the line "the low man wins".

Posted by: dcsween | March 4, 2011 10:03 AM
-------------------------------------------
I read that same article you did. Frankly, I think that article was a case of someone looking for data to support something they had already decided on. The thing I try to remember is these tall offensive tackles are ranked so high in the draft because they played well in college, and they will face some of those guys in the NFL. If they dominated them in college, they will dominate them in the NFL.

Point I was trying to make about the guy was he is too small today to play at 3-4 end and he lacks the coverage skills - and possibly the speed - to play a linebacker today. So, if they take him at number ten they are basically taking a tweener that won't contribute much.

Posted by: p1funk | March 4, 2011 11:52 AM
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Funny how one of the reasons cited for moving to the 3-4 was that it would be easier to get players that fit. Now, it seems like the team is having trouble getting players that fit...

BTW, I think Blache's defense works better with pro-bowl caliber safeties. Green Bay chewed the safeties up and everyone will be sporting the same game plan this year.

Point I was trying to make about the guy was he is too small today to play at 3-4 end and he lacks the coverage skills - and possibly the speed - to play a linebacker today. So, if they take him at number ten they are basically taking a tweener that won't contribute much.

Posted by: RedSkinHead | March 4, 2011 11:55 AM

Won't contribute much this year is what I meant. Ultimately, the guy could be really good. I read that most scouts have him pegged as an eventual 3-4 end so he'll have to pack on the pounds.

Dallas gets a ton of production out of Ratliff and hes only 303. Raji is listed almost 35 lbs heavier, Wilfork 20+, Hamton 20+...

Posted by: mattsoundworld | March 4, 2011 11:49 AM
-----------------------------------------
I wonder if Jarmin could fill that role. The dude had the frame to pack on the pounds and he has the speed...

I wonder if Jarmin could fill that role. The dude had the frame to pack on the pounds and he has the speed...

Posted by: RedSkinHead | March 4, 2011 12:04 PM | Report abuse

Jarmon's back up to 290 lbs already. In Haslett's scheme the NT plays right in front of the center. His job is to beat the crap out of the center. The problem with Jarmon is that he plays too tall to be a NT in this scheme. His legs are too long. The center would just get under him and drive him back. If we changed the scheme and let him try to shoot gaps like Wade Phillips scheme then it might work. A guy like Stephen Paea would work for us because he's got a lot lower stance due to his stubby legs. I'd love to see Jarmon at DE with Paea as the NT. The guys that I think would work best for us at NT look like they have tree trunks for legs. Short and stout and can collapse the pocket. Make the QB step backwards into Orakpo's arms.

All we need to care about as fans is that he is an upgrade. I think most fans have always overestimated the talent on this team. Right now we don't have much. On either side of the ball. It doesn't matter that he is not the future or a long term solution. Right now he is better than what we had.
The next thing we need to address is a #1 and #2 WR. Because right now we don't have any of those either.

That's too bad...dude should be able to keep his number. If the team wants to put a 5 year moratoriam on #21, I can live with that...but to take a number out of circulation is stupid if you're not gonna retire it. Instead of agonizing over when to wear gold pants, BA should get on the task of fixing that debacle once and for all...

Posted by: brownwood26 | March 4, 2011 10:01 AM

per Cindy B? Love Cindy but she had nothing to do with unearthing the fact that OJ won't wear #21. You can thank yours truly..

13 hours ago: @blessedskins21 Congrats, glad to have you as a Redskin. What # do you plan on wearing in the burgundy and gold?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OJ's response..

blessedskins Oshiomogho Atogwe
With all due respect, I will not be rocking nor even asking to rock 21…

Some of you guys should read more, post less. BTW, bw26 no # is officially retired.

Unfortunately, I see Shanahan going up to get a QB. That was his history with Cutler.

He would be much better off doing something like this and waiting until next year to draft QB. However, I would go Lewis not Murray in the 5th who has been injured too much. Doubt Lewis will still be there.

This is certainly better than what we had. However, there was little to no help in this draft. Getting OJ helps address one of the more glaring needs on the defense. Now, we need to get a starter at NT and another starter at OLB opposite Rak. I'm liking this signing, however I really hope he doesn't wear 21. Too soon

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