Saturn retrograde needs to determine it's own reality, it's own authority, and integrate itself into society in it's own way that honors what it feels to be it's inherent individuality. With Saturn retrograde and correlating to the structural nature of consciousness this then means that every other archetype, planet, within that consciousness is also being defined via this overall retrograde archetype even if other planets themselves are not retrograde. With Saturn retrograde it's like pointing an arrow towards Uranus.

I don't think that I have enough of the Paradigm to understand all of that, honestly. If the Saturn archetype is so rebellous, and helping to define my other conscious functions, I'm not sure I understand how that would manifest? I am not asking for further information, definitely not a free reading, just stating the following:

My natal chart has Saturn Retrograde at 10degrees35min Aquarius conjunct the Moon's South Node at 10degrees50min Aquarius, and both square Neptune Retrograde at 10degrees57min Scorpio and Mars at 18degrees36min Taurus, and Saturn is in opposition to Venus at 7degrees4mi Leo conjunct the Moon's North Node in Leo.Interesting that the only two planets in the chart that are retrograde are in such a close square! Does that have any meaning the discussion of which would benefit this message board? If its not of benefit to the board, though, then I withdraw the question!

"That is exactly what is happening to me lately!! Something recently went 'gong' and my perception starting clearing, and now I am trying to cast aside many different levels of self-imposed illusions and their accompanying delusions...however, there always seems to be more and more and more...a flood of stuff, actually... "

*******************************************************************

In a nutshell you just answered your own question about how that pattern manifests, the EA intent behind it ...............

It's real nice for you to be so considerate Stephan but please feel free to ask more about your chart because, after all, the more you understand the EA paradigm as applied to your own actual life the more you will then be able to help others with it ................ most students learn this way ..........

When Neptune is retrograde it points to Pluto itself: our Soul. When Neptune is retrograde there is an accelerated evolutionary desire, need, to throw off all things that are of a delusive nature: that which is not actually 'real' yet what we have considered real before the delusion or illusion was finally understood. Thus, it emphasizes the process of disillusionment leading to that which is actually real from an ultimate point of view. Relative to uniting our consciousness, Soul, with that which has created us in the first place, the Neptune retrograde will necessarily do so in it's own way.

Quote

That is exactly what is happening to me lately!! Something recently went 'gong' and my perception starting clearing, and now I am trying to cast aside many different levels of self-imposed illusions and their accompanying delusions...however, there always seems to be more and more and more...a flood of stuff, actually... The only real lesson I have deeply learned is that there are an endless amount of lessons to learn, and I think the EA Paradigm has insights for me, and so I am on this board, and reading and watching the DVDs as if this Paradigm is a bit of solid land in a usually stormy ocean! (If this personal stuff doesn't belong here, just let me know, and I will certainly delete it.)!

If this thread is maybe helping others, and not just me (I hope it is), I would like to ask another question:

What would have caused such a thing to happen at this time? Or, does that require a full chart analysis, employing other techniques which I only know the buzz-words for: progressions, transits, etc...? (If so, we can leave it at that.)

The natal chart reflects the EA intention for a lifetime ... and the timing of inner and outer developments that correlate with the progressive actualization of that intention is indeed the phenomena of transits and progressions. If you feel like it Stephan go ahead and post your chart and/ or birth data and we can go through this some more....................

It's real nice for you to be so considerate Stephan but please feel free to ask more about your chart because, after all, the more you understand the EA paradigm as applied to your own actual life the more you will then be able to help others with it ................ most students learn this way ..........

Thanks Rad. I have been reading the archived posts, and JWG states in threads there that the Message Board is not the place for readings, so, I wanted to honor that if it was a rule here. Yes, some readings are being done here I noticed, but I didn't know the rules, and certainly don't want attention upon me at this board if people reading it now or years from now won't gain benefit. My very very stong intention is that one day I WILL help others through the requested application of the EA Paradigm to their charts. This is requiring a rather severe mindset alteration on my part, however, as I do not have a previous framework for this particular paradigm, and additionally, my mind enjoys constantly tricking itself with what it thinks are very clever thoughts. The horse must be rode, however! (But...first, the Bronco must be broke!)

Quote

The natal chart reflects the EA intention for a lifetime ... and the timing of inner and outer developments that correlate with the progressive actualization of that intention is indeed the phenomena of transits and progressions. If you feel like it Stephan go ahead and post your chart and/ or birth data and we can go through this some more....................

Thanks yet again for the explanations and answers...and for the offer of posting my birth data.I would like to post that data, and listen to anyone's comments on it.Would you want it in this thread, or a new thread?

Thanks for helping me to progress as a student,This is very important to me,Blessings,Stephen

Hi Stephan, Start a new thread with your chart posted in it. Please provide your own estimation of your Evolutionary stage, i.e. individuated, etc, and ask specific type questions as you can about what you want those on the message board to answer, i.e. 'what's my evolutionary intentions for the current lifetime". Provide too, if you feel comfortable, a little of your life experiences too for that provides 'context' for the EA astrologer to work with.

Hi Stephan, Start a new thread with your chart posted in it. Please provide your own estimation of your Evolutionary stage, i.e. individuated, etc, and ask specific type questions as you can about what you want those on the message board to answer, i.e. 'what's my evolutionary intentions for the current lifetime". Provide too, if you feel comfortable, a little of your life experiences too for that provides 'context' for the EA astrologer to work with. Rad

Thanks very much Rad. I wrote up a background, and will start the thread.

Linda, to me, your quote here really illustrates that 10th house Pluto Retrograde. "Resisted being pigeonholed" is that retrograde - the need to do it YOUR way (and necessarily so as Jeffrey used to say), and thus you don't fit the "mold", so to speak, as defined BY society (10th house), and so you are "blocked from playing a meaningful role in my society and culture" etc. See how absolutely vivid your words are in relation to a 10th house Pluto? And the intent, of course, is in the PP in the 4th house: To develop INNER security - to be independent FROM society and draw your strength and courage from within - to trust yourSELF, etc.

There are also times, especially within the context of the society in which we find ourselves, that we HAVE to follow the stupid 'rules' in ORDER to ge to the position where we can DO what we want within that society, but then we do it OUR OWN WAY! Who, then, gets the last laugh, so to speak?!

Hi again Sajani,

Natal Pluto retrograde at the end of the 10th house

It seems I'm feeling conflicted about being a part of society in light of Pluto's transit through Capricorn, and resisting being part of the society because I resist being pigeonholed and as Jeff said I necessarily need to do it my own way.

How would my Natal Pluto Retrograde at the end of the 10th house operate within the current Pluto transit through Capricorn? I've suffered blocks from society for many years and rejection from the mainstream even though I have amazing talents that I can offer society. I realise this rejection relates to past life abuses of power. But playing by society's (man-made), herd-like rules is so difficult - I don't agree with their rules because they only seem to serve their own "mainstream group", and not everyone. Hopefully Pluto through Capricorn is addressing this imbalance.

I realize that evolution for me has taken place through Pluto's polarity, Aquarius, and I now approach this problem that I perceive in society in a new way, by practising astrology over the internet and reaching many people. As this does not support my physical survival, I am left having to rely on employment within the society. I am clearly seeing the mainstream group and how they operate - and I don't want to be part of it yet am forced to be to some extent - I just feel like running in the opposite direction.

In my limited involvement with society (and employment therein) I'm feeling an abhorrence to it - yet I realise that Pluto's transit through Capricorn is forcing us to become aware of the greater whole, the collective, and perhaps fulfil some work function or purpose within it. That our immediate evolution is happening through this Pluto through Capricorn transit.

It's also interesting that my feelings are heightened while T-Pluto is presently retrograde and squaring my Jupiter Libra 12th as we speak.

Any thoughts whatsoever around these questions/issues would be greatly appreciated.

It seems I'm feeling conflicted about being a part of society in light of Pluto's transit through Capricorn, and resisting being part of the society because I resist being pigeonholed and as Jeff said I necessarily need to do it my own way.

How would my Natal Pluto Retrograde at the end of the 10th house operate within the current Pluto transit through Capricorn? I've suffered blocks from society for many years and rejection from the mainstream even though I have amazing talents that I can offer society. I realise this rejection relates to past life abuses of power. But playing by society's (man-made), herd-like rules is so difficult - I don't agree with their rules because they only seem to serve their own "mainstream group", and not everyone. Hopefully Pluto through Capricorn is addressing this imbalance.

I realize that evolution for me has taken place through Pluto's polarity, Aquarius, and I now approach this problem that I perceive in society in a new way, by practising astrology over the internet and reaching many people. As this does not support my physical survival, I am left having to rely on employment within the society. I am clearly seeing the mainstream group and how they operate - and I don't want to be part of it yet am forced to be to some extent - I just feel like running in the opposite direction.

In my limited involvement with society (and employment therein) I'm feeling an abhorrence to it - yet I realise that Pluto's transit through Capricorn is forcing us to become aware of the greater whole, the collective, and perhaps fulfil some work function or purpose within it. That our immediate evolution is happening through this Pluto through Capricorn transit.

Linda,

If I recall correctly you see yourself as 1st stage spiritual, and have pluto less than one degree from the 11th house.

It's been stated at different times that the % of people on earth in spiritual state is between 2% and 10%. In other words, what you know as reality within yourself can never be grasped by 90% - 98% of those around you, at this point in time. This in itself creates an intense sense of aloneness and alienation. And, alienation is inherent in the Aquarius/Uranian/11th house archetype. At the least that is your Pluto polarity point, and the evolutionary intent of your Pluto in this life (less than 1 degree from 11th house cusp).

There IS no way you can integrate, or even accept, the mainstream consensus on its own terms. All your attempts to do so will result in futility (10th house), exhaustion, and even depression. The approach one must learn to adopt is to realize you can be (or, may have to be) IN it, but it has nothing to do with who you are. It's like, that is your CAREER (10th house), but it is not who you are and in itself will never complete you. That just has to be accepted. It comes with the territory.

All the frustration, aloneness, and the rest, point you back to yourself, to realize ever more deeply your actual nature, who you truly are. Also have to remember, you are not the Doer - the real work simply comes through you. If it is not happening in the way you think you want it to happen, this is not a mistake. Its not even to sit there racking your brains about what you are doing wrong - these are not mistakes but experiences we have to accept. Like everything else, they are temporary - even if 5 years long - they will pass, and the You will still be there after they are a memory.

I realize you have a deep inner yearning to do what you feel you have come here to do, but also have to remember, past a certain point the timing is not up to you. All you can do is show up, inwardly say "I am ready", and at times when appropriate it will happen. 10th house Pluto - you do not control that process. Its not so much about you getting to use your gifts that would help others as it is about serving the needs of those God sends your way, whether two or twenty thousand. If you are putting forth all your efforts and they are not appearing, this is not a mistake, nor does it mean you are doing something wrong. It would come down to timing, and patience. And acceptance of What Is at this time...

As far as having to work in the mainstream, this too is likely temporary. You are not supposed to "like" it or feel at home there, you will not fit in (ever), and it has little to do with who you are. Really accepting that, deeply, helps. Its not uncommon that even within situations like that, you wind up being of service to others, as you wind up in conversations with people who start revealing things they normally don't discuss, and then you have insight that helps them, eases their mind, gives them new approaches to consider. They would not normally have access to this, in the lives they have created. And then you are fulfilling a function that God has placed you there to do, helping others in the most mundane setting.

The point is, in such circumstances you are always thrown back on yourself, to your baseline sense of who you are - out of that aloneness and alienation, you gradually become increasingly aware of greater depth within. Inner resolve strengthens, and you realize ever more that even though you may be stationed within the mainstream, it has nothing to do with who you are.

As far as Pluto in Cap, to me one of its important functions is to remove structures of all sorts that have become crystallized (no longer serve a useful evolutionary function), frozen in place, through the principle of our sense of security is based on the known, on both the personal (Cancer/4th) and societal (Cap/10th) levels. In essence a dynamiting of hardened rock that is holding back evolutionary progress. This process is affecting everyone, 1st stage consensus and 3rd stage spiritual. Its sometimes not the most fun-filled feeling one has ever known. Long term, it quite effectively fulfills its intents.Steve

Thank you for delving into this. If I can get clarity and understanding about my own chart, then I can fulfil my desire to teach others. The intense and passionate thirst for knowledge is reflected by my Saturn Sag 2nd trine Uranus Leo MC. That is the only aspect Saturn makes in my chart, except for a sextile to Chiron Aquarius 4th.

If I recall correctly you see yourself as 1st stage spiritual, and have pluto less than one degree from the 11th house.

Yes, definitely 1st stage spiritual - and over the past year some 2nd stage experiences - but mainly in the 1st stage.

Quote

Steve says: It's been stated at different times that the % of people on earth in spiritual state is between 2% and 10%. In other words, what you know as reality within yourself can never be grasped by 90% - 98% of those around you, at this point in time. This in itself creates an intense sense of aloneness and alienation. And, alienation is inherent in the Aquarius/Uranian/11th house archetype. At the least that is your Pluto polarity point, and the evolutionary intent of your Pluto in this life (less than 1 degree from 11th house cusp).

I can totally accept this. In fact, I now enjoy the intense sense of aloneness and alienation because I have more time to focus on what is truly important to my soul. I thank God/ess I have friends here and a few close friends in the world, eg Chuck.

Quote

Steve: There IS no way you can integrate, or even accept, the mainstream consensus on its own terms. All your attempts to do so will result in futility (10th house), exhaustion, and even depression. The approach one must learn to adopt is to realize you can be (or, may have to be) IN it, but it has nothing to do with who you are. It's like, that is your CAREER (10th house), but it is not who you are and in itself will never complete you. That just has to be accepted. It comes with the territory.

Yes, I can totally accept this also. It was never my intention to accept or integrate into the mainstream consensus since earlier attempts were futile and resulted in exhaustion - I was expressing my aversion to it. But since concretely learning about my true 1st stage spiritual state (which has operated all my life), it has become much easier.

Quote

Steve: Also have to remember, you are not the Doer - the real work simply comes through you.

This is beautiful - and speaks to my soul! A lot has been coming through me lately - and I could not help but feel intense responsibility in the work (3 Capricorn personal planets!). Thank you for letting me see that it is not ME that is doing the work: this is wonderful!

Quote

Steve: It's not so much about you getting to use your gifts that would help others as it is about serving the needs of those God sends your way, whether two or twenty thousand. It would come down to timing, and patience. And acceptance of What Is at this time...

This has been occurring lately. I will gladly be patient and accept WHAT IS at this time.

Quote

Steve: As far as having to work in the mainstream, this too is likely temporary. You are not supposed to "like" it or feel at home there, you will not fit in (ever), and it has little to do with who you are. Really accepting that, deeply, helps.

Please understand that it was never my intention to "fit in" with the mainstream, as that was exhausted many years ago. Yes, the mainstream has very little to do with who I am.

Quote

Steve: Its not uncommon that even within situations like that, you wind up being of service to others, as you wind up in conversations with people who start revealing things they normally don't discuss, and then you have insight that helps them, eases their mind, gives them new approaches to consider. They would not normally have access to this, in the lives they have created. And then you are fulfilling a function that God has placed you there to do, helping others in the most mundane setting.

I don't really talk with mainstream people about spiritual things, but mainly talk with friends who come my way, and through astrology readings. I can offer these people little tidbits and a new approach as they already have an interest. I enter discussions with people who are open to hear, and who have an interest in spirituality. I am only involved with the mainstream for 6 hours per week (working in a chinese restaurant) so it is not really my intention to take these deep spiritual messages to them - at the same time I understand that they have made their own choices to be where they are.

Quote

Steve: The point is, in such circumstances you are always thrown back on yourself, to your baseline sense of who you are - out of that aloneness and alienation, you gradually become increasingly aware of greater depth within. Inner resolve strengthens, and you realize ever more that even though you may be stationed within the mainstream, it has nothing to do with who you are.

I am becoming aware of greater depth within this is for sure. Thank you for helping me strengthen my inner resolve...which affirms my deepest and true feelings.

Your answers have removed all conflict and made things clearer for me.