God is Probability

I been thinking recently and I came to the conclusion that when people pray to God, they are praying to Probability. They pray that the results of an action go to their favor. When the chances of a positive outcome are incredibly low, yet they still happen, then that would be considered a miracle. I'm sure I'm not the first to think like this, but I don't know if it has any name. Help?

This is not a thread to discuss the validity of Religion, most of us are atheist (myself included) and preaching to the choir, no pun intended, is useless.

Comments

Your argument relies on the idea that people only pray about themselves. Lots of people pray for others, or for the forgiveness of their sins, or other things that do not involve changes, or hoping that a situation will go their way. That's not the only type of prayer there is, and often times even that type tends to revolve more around asking whichever deity they are praying to to allow the event to go the way the deity wants, not the way we want, and that things will work out in their plan. Of course, we still hope that this way is our way, but we know that it won't necessarily be.But, then again, there are those who pray like you say they do, and in that case, I would agree with you, they are praying to probability, not really to the idea of a deity as it is laid out in religious texts.

Your argument relies on the idea that people only pray about themselves. Lots of people pray for others, or for the forgiveness of their sins, or other things that do not involve changes, or hoping that a situation will go their way. That's not the only type of prayer there is, and often times even that type tends to revolve more around asking whichever deity they are praying to to allow the event to go the way the deity wants, not the way we want, and that things will work out in their plan. Of course, we still hope that this way is our way, but we know that it won't necessarily be.But, then again, there are those who pray like you say they do, and in that case, I would agree with you, they are praying to probability, not really to the idea of a deity as it is laid out in religious texts.

Please don't hurt me, please don't hurt me...

No it doesn't. Even when people are praying for others, they are praying that they get better, which is probability. No matter how they pray, they are praying to probability. Praying is just basically talking to your god, and wishing/asking him to lean something a certain way, which is basically probability.

Your argument relies on the idea that people only pray about themselves. Lots of people pray for others, or for the forgiveness of their sins, or other things that do not involve changes, or hoping that a situation will go their way. That's not the only type of prayer there is, and often times even that type tends to revolve more around asking whichever deity they are praying to to allow the event to go the way the deity wants, not the way we want, and that things will work out in their plan. Of course, we still hope that this way is our way, but we know that it won't necessarily be.But, then again, there are those who pray like you say they do, and in that case, I would agree with you, they are praying to probability, not really to the idea of a deity as it is laid out in religious texts.

Please don't hurt me, please don't hurt me...

No it doesn't. Even when people are praying for others, they are praying that they get better, which is probability. No matter how they pray, they are praying to probability. Praying is just basically talking to your god, and wishing/asking him to lean something a certain way, which is basically probability.

You missed my point. While a lot of prayers are asking for something to go your way, sometimes people pray to just thank God for being in their lives. This happens many times at a church service. They just pray to let God know that we worship him, and other stuff you don't care about. That prayer is different.

You missed my point. While a lot of prayers are asking for something to go your way, sometimes people pray to just thank God for being in their lives. This happens many times at a church service. They just pray to let God know that we worship him, and other stuff you don't care about. That prayer is different.

Thanking Probability for falling in their favor, and letting it know that they care.

You missed my point. While a lot of prayers are asking for something to go your way, sometimes people pray to just thank God for being in their lives. This happens many times at a church service. They just pray to let God know that we worship him, and other stuff you don't care about. That prayer is different.

Thanking Probability for falling in their favor, and letting it know that they care.

Only one would never care for probability, because it always falls out of our favor, doesn't it? You guys are simplifying it more than it should be. Regardless of whether you think we're stupid or crazy, there are more complex emotions than you seem to want to admit going on here.And it's not just thanking God/Probability for falling in our favor, which He often doesn't. It's just to let him know that we're here, even when he seems to have abandoned us. You can simplify that further, but you're just looking down on religion for the sake of looking down on religion.

You can simplify that further, but you're just looking down on religion for the sake of looking down on religion.

Regardless of whether you think we're stupid or crazy, there are more complex emotions than you seem to want to admit going on here.

If I recall, Christianity doesn't confer the ability to read minds, so I'd avoid attempting to tell us our own motives and thoughts, lest you make a fool of yourself.

Funny, I was thinking similar things about Atheism, seeing as how previous posts seem to be saying that all of our thoughts while we pray are selfish and hopeful for our own purposes. Maybe I can't tell you that you're looking down on us (even though it seems like you are), but you can't tell how I feel when I pray. Take your own advice.

Because telling an omnipotent, omnipresent god where you isn't a crazy thought at all. Especially when your species is the centrepiece of its creation, according to your books.

I'll give it to you that any prayers that are centred on something supernatural, like your god, afterlife, that stuff, are not prayers to probability. They're just meaningless.

I'm not going to argue with you, because that's not what this argument is about. You're baiting me, therefore further confirming your status as a troll. I'm not going to say that it's not ridiculous. It isn't to me, but I'm just a ridiculous, illogical, stupid person, so it's all good.

Funny, I was thinking similar things about Atheism, seeing as how previous posts seem to be saying that all of our thoughts while we pray are selfish and hopeful for our own purposes. Maybe I can't tell you that you're looking down on us (even though it seems like you are), but you can't tell how I feel when I pray. Take your own advice.

After careful reflection upon my previous statements, I didn't say anything of the sort, and I feel that maybe, just maybe, you should consider stopping your habit of interpreting people's statements in such a way that they cause you the most offense, it's not a healthy way to behave.

The closest I came was Treating your speaking with your preferred deity with a little less respect than you feel it deserves, and frankly, if me calling your talking to an invisible being "prayer" makes you feel better, Great, I'll be sure to do that in future, but don't think I'll think of it as much more.

The initial statement wasn't even about your god. The Specific Deity isn't referred to. Assuming someone means your god when they say "God" is just a touch arrogant, don't you think? And Acting like we don't understand is even more so, When frankly, You're only one God less of an atheist than I am, unless you believe that the entire pantheon of gods across the various cultures of mankind exist, and just assume that yours is the only correct choice, which is even more arrogant again.

Also, The arrogance and Pretentiousness of your previous statements astounds me.First, you assume that we don't know that people don't just pray for themselves, or just to worship god. Let me drop an idea that might seem insane to you, but Atheism does not equal Amnesia. We didn't just spring into being Godless and loving it, Most of us got there via Christianity (though my apologies if I speak too much for others who took a different path) - in fact, thinking about it, Christianity is one of the biggest producers of Atheists in the world.Suddenly, I feel like we should bake you all cupcakes or something.

Secondly, you paid no attention when you're told how your problem with the theory fits in - Prayer is Talking to god, And asking him for something is asking an alteration of probability. But because you didn't take this on board, suddenly, we're the ones who misunderstand you? Pull your head in, mate.

Third, you lump all Atheists not only together, but all together against you. Would you like to be lumped in with Ray Comfort, Those "Left Behind" lunatics, Bibleman, and Jack Chick? If not, don't lump us all together, because we're not all the same - admittedly, We have far fewer crazies to make it offensive, But it's still not cool. Personally, I think you're a good bloke, but for when you get over-sensitive, leap on your high horse named religion, and start riding yourself into a lather, which is a little annoying.I don't associate you with those nutballs, so why do you insist on lumping all of us together?

Last of all, I didn't say anything about how you feel when you pray, nor did anyone else. So, I suggest you reign in your indignation about that, because the only person who seems to have interpreted anything said in that way, is you.EDIT -

I'm not going to argue with you, because that's not what this argument is about. You're baiting me, therefore further confirming your status as a troll. I'm not going to say that it's not ridiculous. It isn't to me, but I'm just a ridiculous, illogical, stupid person, so it's all good.

What is this argument about, then, Axel? It started out as a philosophical discussion of if People are praying to probability, when they pray to their god. You came in, and made it all about you, Your god, and how we Atheists don't understand, Which in a forum known to be full near bursting with Atheists and Agnostics, could easily be considered baiting.

By your own definition, This only confirms your own status as a troll.

As For the question of you being a Ridiculous, Illogical and stupid person, Well, that's alright, so is just about everyone else on the planet, so you're in decent company.

Aside from that, to address your point -

Only one would never care for probability, because it always falls out of our favor, doesn't it? You guys are simplifying it more than it should be. Regardless of whether you think we're stupid or crazy, there are more complex emotions than you seem to want to admit going on here.And it's not just thanking God/Probability for falling in our favor, which He often doesn't. It's just to let him know that we're here, even when he seems to have abandoned us. You can simplify that further, but you're just looking down on religion for the sake of looking down on religion.

I'm not "You guys" I'm "Churba" - if you're going to reply to my statements, then reply to me.

Allow me to lay this out for you.

You ask your god to alter events in your favor. This often has no more measurable effect than asking Probability, as you said yourself, "He often doesn't" - and His influence is not able to be measured.You Pray to him, to let you know you're still there, and still believe in his influence, so on, so forth.

You ask probability to fall in your favor. This Has no more measurable effect than asking your god, and when it does, the effect of your asking upon probability is not able to be measured.If you were to believe that your asking probability to fall in your favor was something that worked, You'd probably attempt to speak to probability outside of asking for things, to attempt to keep it's favor.

So, Where's the difference, outside of the name? And pardon my attempt to predict what you'll respond with, but this isn't an issue of emotion. Some people pray to Allah in the same fashion and probably have similar emotions, others show their devotion for The Goddess, some people Have their rituals to Satan, but you're not arguing for any of them, are you?On top of that, Were someone to believe in probability this way, they would most likely feel the same way when they "Spoke" to probability. You can't make an issue of Emotion, unless your emotion is a unique experience to your religion, which is the height of arrogance to assume.

I don't believe I implied that I was only talking about Christianity. I was just using it as an example since I am most familiar with it. And, no other religion I've heard of (aside from Judaism, but we're talking about the same god, so it's okay) simply refers to their god as "God," specifically with the constant capital "G." In our culture, there is a general distinction between "God" and "god" when people write them. Regardless of whether that's good or not, it is there, and I assume most people know of it. Sorry for the confusion, since you aren't American, I suppose I forget that other English-speaking countries might not have those same tendencies.

Anyways, that argument does exist for all religions, so long as that's why they're praying to their deity.

I'm not going to argue that you're wrong completely, because again, you're not. But you and the others who have posted in here have missed my point, again. My point is that not all prayer of all religions can be lumped into this. There are things that we pray about, or just ways in which we pray, that have no similarity to probability at all. And we don't do it just to keep our deity's favor, we do it because we want to. Most people don't understand this, but I have a deep connection to my personal god. A lot of people, as you, Churba, seem to be doing, assume that all people pray out of fear, or misguidance. That's not the case, I willingly make this choice. That makes me irrational, I know, and I don't care.

The only argument here is whether or not all prayer is praying to probability, and as someone who prays more often than all of you, I would assume you would be fascinated to hear what someone on the "inside" has to say about your theory. I would also assume that you would take what I say as being important, since as Atheists and logicians, so to speak, you have rejected the idea of prayer, regardless of background, and thus no longer have the same insight as a current believer does.

As for my argument that you were talking about knowing my emotions, I was speaking of:

Thanking Probability for falling in their favor, and letting it know that they care.

You're interpreting why this fits your idea of God=Probability in our minds, but I argue that you're wrong. You still argue that your point stands. However, your argument is about what my mind is perceiving, what it is thinking of or "wishing for" when it prays. That is something you don't know, and therefore your argument falls flat. Now, I was wrong to claim that you were simplifying my beliefs for the sake of doing it, and the sake of being mean, but it is hard to interpret it otherwise. I apologize if I offended you.

Prayer: Asking an invisible man who won't reply to think or act a certain way even though his motives are ineffable, and in spite of the fact that said invisible man has through his alleged omniscience predestined all events until the end of time. Makes sense.

Prayer: Asking an invisible man who won't reply to think or act a certain way even though his motives are ineffable, and in spite of the fact that said invisible man has through his alleged omniscience predestined all events until the end of time. Makes sense.

Except, as I have spent time futilely arguing, there is more to it than that. I'm not going to reiterate what I said, so if you care, which I imagine you really don't, look above. Unless you have been reading my posts, in which case, there is no conversation to be had, because we just disagree. Good day sir.

Edit:

Posted By: AxelI'm not going to argue with you, because that's not what this argument is about. You're baiting me, therefore further confirming your status as a troll. I'm not going to say that it's not ridiculous. It isn't to me, but I'm just a ridiculous, illogical, stupid person, so it's all good.

What is this argument about, then, Axel? It started out as a philisophical discussion of if People are praying to probability, when they pray to their god. You came in, and made it all about you, Your god, and how we Atheists don't understand, Which in a forum known to be full near bursting with Athiests and Agnostics, could easily be considered Bating.

That was directed at Nine, sorry, not you. He came in and said something that was trolling, not you. Unless you realize this. He was getting into an argument about how ridiculous our beliefs are, which is trying to bait me into an argument about the validity of religion. That's not what this is about, it seems to be about prayer and the thoughts/emotions/ideas behind it.

I'd say that the only difference is that probability tells us that if something happens enough times, eventually the outcome becomes entirely predictable. A great many religions believe in an inconceivable plan or will belonging to their deity or written in scripture. Such a plan would mean that certain events simply will NEVER occur, and that prayer is simply trying to somehow sway the desires of an ineffable cosmic will.

I'd say that the only difference is that probability tells us that if something happens enough times, eventually the outcome becomes entirely predictable. A great many religions believe in an inconceivable plan or will belonging to their deity or written in scripture. Such a plan would mean that certain events simply will NEVER occur, and that prayer is simply trying to somehow sway the desires of an ineffable cosmic will.

Or that we are relying on God, admitting that we don't have the strength to make it through a situation alone. We tell him what we want, because we know he cares, and that he will listen. Often, we expect no results, we simply need to tell someone everything. It is therapeutic, I suppose. You can argue that it's self-centered, and it probably is, but it has nothing to do with probability.

I'd say that the only difference is that probability tells us that if something happens enough times, eventually the outcome becomes entirely predictable. A great many religions believe in an inconceivable plan or will belonging to their deity or written in scripture. Such a plan would mean that certain events simply will NEVER occur, and that prayer is simply trying to somehow sway the desires of an ineffable cosmic will.

Or that we are relying on God, admitting that we don't have the strength to make it through a situation alone. We tell him what we want, because we know he cares, and that he will listen. Often, we expect no results, we simply need to tell someone everything. It is therapeutic, I suppose. You can argue that it's self-centered, and it probably is, but it has nothing to do with probability.

Axel, I'm a Catholic (albeit a lapsed and incredibly embittered one). You don't have to explain to me the motives behind prayer, nor do you need to explain why we do it.

I'd say that the only difference is that probability tells us that if something happens enough times, eventually the outcome becomes entirely predictable. A great many religions believe in an inconceivable plan or will belonging to their deity or written in scripture. Such a plan would mean that certain events simply will NEVER occur, and that prayer is simply trying to somehow sway the desires of an ineffable cosmic will.

Or that we are relying on God, admitting that we don't have the strength to make it through a situation alone. We tell him what we want, because we know he cares, and that he will listen. Often, we expect no results, we simply need to tell someone everything. It is therapeutic, I suppose. You can argue that it's self-centered, and it probably is, but it has nothing to do with probability.

Axel, I'm a Catholic (albeit a lapsed and incredibly embittered one). You don't have to explain to me the motives behind prayer, nor do you need to explain why we do it.

Okay, never mind. Your post ignored those things, however, and I wasn't sure if you knew or not. It's also directed at others.Sorry, I was unaware of your affiliation.

A lot of people, as you, Churba, seem to be doing, assume that all people pray out of fear, or misguidance.

It is not as it seems. I never used to, and I don't assume the motives of others unless they're blindingly obvious.

I would assume you would be fascinated to hear what someone on the "inside" has to say about your theory. I would also assume that you would take what I say as being important, since as Atheists and logicians, so to speak, you have rejected the idea of prayer, regardless of background, and thus no longer have the same insight as a current believer does.

I disagree. We have rejected the idea that it works without evidence, however, that doesn't mean that our knowledge of the process is invalid. Also, I do think that what you have to say is important, as important as what any of us have to say, and I treat you the same as I'd treat anyone making the same statements that you are. I just disagree with what you say, is all.

I do take things offensively quite often, I know. It is a misguided belief stemming from my youth of being bullied. But my apprehension of society's intentions is misplaced, and I realize you don't intend to attack me or my beliefs.I also blame the internet as a poor means of communicating tone and body language, which is half of a conversation. Without it, I am free to make up what I think those things would be, and my mind always jumps to the worst.Again, sorry, and I will try in the future to assume less. Nine's post seemed very much like an attack at the time, so it put me on the offensive.

That was directed at Nine, sorry, not you. He came in and said something that was trolling, not you. Unless you realize this. He was getting into an argument about how ridiculous our beliefs are, which is trying to bait me into an argument about the validity of religion. That's not what this is about, it seems to be about prayer and the thoughts/emotions/ideas behind it.

And I pointed your own definition as given at the time back at you. I realize you didn't mean me. I think that the word "troll" is thrown about a little liberally, of late. He wasn't Baiting you any more than the rest of us - He was pointing out an inconsistency in what you stated was your reasoning. If that's trolling, then responding in ANY reasoned debate is trolling.

Again, sorry, and I will try in the future to assume less. Nine's post seemed very much like an attack at the time, so it put me on the offensive.

I understand. Nine can be rather abrasive at times, But once you get past that, he usually has a good point. You just gotta let it roll off you, water off a duck's back. Easier said than done, I know, but you will find your forum experience improved once you start doing it regularly.