OrthodoxChristianity.net

Title: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 17, 2012, 07:47:39 PM

Quote

On Monday, October 15, 2012, Bishop Mark J. Lawrence, the 14th Bishop of the Diocese of South Carolina (http://www.diosc.com/sys/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=452:the-episcopal-church-takes-action-against-the-diocese-of-south-carolina-special-convetion-called&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=75) was notified by the Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori, that on September 18, 2012 the Disciplinary Board for Bishops had certified his abandonment of The Episcopal Church. This action by The Episcopal Church triggered two pre-existing corporate resolutions of the Diocese, which simultaneously disaffiliated the Diocese from The Episcopal Church and called a Special Convention. That Convention will be held at St. Philip’s Church, Charleston, on Saturday, November 17, 2012. ....We feel a deep sense of sadness but a renewed sense of God’s providence that The Episcopal Church has chosen to act against this Diocese and its Bishop during a good faith attempt resolve our differences peacefully. These actions make it clear The Episcopal Church no longer desires to be affiliated with the Diocese of South Carolina.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Asteriktos on October 17, 2012, 08:37:03 PM

What are the issues/differences?

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 17, 2012, 09:11:36 PM

I think, for one, that the diocese of SC refuses to follow the national Episcopal Church in terms of accepting same-sex ceremonies/marriages and accepting openly homosexual bishops. Thus, the national church claims that the diocese of SC and its bishop have "abandoned" the national church.

Lawsuits over property and such may follow.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Maria on October 17, 2012, 10:55:21 PM

Lord have mercy.

Perhaps some of the hierarchs, clergy and laity of South Carolina will consider coming home to Orthodoxy.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 17, 2012, 11:54:26 PM

Perhaps some of the hierarchs, clergy and laity of South Carolina will consider coming home to Orthodoxy.

Well, there's a very nice parish (http://www.ocacharleston.org/) in Charleston, which is having an "Orthodox Christianity for Anglicans (http://www.ocacharleston.org/orthodox-christianity-for-anglicans)" (and Episcoplians) this weekend. :)

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Shanghaiski on October 18, 2012, 12:03:31 AM

Lawsuits are part of the Episcopal Church's holy tradition.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 18, 2012, 12:06:47 AM

Oh, and one more thing. The diocese of SC declared in September that if (http://www.diosc.com/sys/images/documents/tec/sc_conditional_disassociate.pdf) the national church ever tried anything like this (declaring "abandonment", e.g.), then the diocese would automatically disaffiliate itself from the national church.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: podkarpatska on October 18, 2012, 09:34:29 AM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Thank you very much for this, Podkarpatska. It is appreciated.

It was depressing to see another round of "Oh look at those awful Episcopalians" etc

Ebor (sigh)

Yes, Ebor old friend. But it is painful for us to watch the disintegration of the ECUSA and I suspect a lot of the perceived attitude about "those awful Episcopalians" is really "hope this doesn't happen to us" over the same issues. :-\

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: podkarpatska on October 18, 2012, 10:30:18 AM

I agree, making fun at the pain within another brother's home is never a good thing. I have family who are Episcopalians - primarily due to litigation and turmoil within my own family during the 1930's and 1940's. For my 93 year old uncle to deal with this at this point in his life- and the parish he and his family have been a part of for decades is old line, High Church, but it is east coast old time diocesan and never likely to be allowed 'out' by their ruling Bishop - is just a sad, sad thing.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 18, 2012, 04:37:39 PM

It is now clarified that it was not the national church that initiated this action against the diocese of SC and its bishop; it was a group of parishioners of the diocese who asked the national church to take action:

Quote

[Episcopal News Service - New Brunswick, New Jersey] The 12 lay people and two priests who filed complaints (http://episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/ens/2012/10/18/south-carolinians-say-diocesan-actions-were-too-far-out-of-bounds/) with the Episcopal Church’s Disciplinary Board for Bishops alleging that the Diocese of South Carolina Bishop Mark Lawrence had abandoned the Episcopal Church said Oct. 18 that they filed those complaints “with great deliberation” because certain actions he and other diocesan leaders took “seemed to be going too far out of bounds.”....Melinda A. Lucka, an attorney in the Charleston, South Carolina, area and an active communicant in the diocese, said in the letter that the complainants “do not want possible misunderstandings” and stressed that no one from elsewhere in the Episcopal Church encouraged or initiated the complaint.”....Generally, names of individuals who initiate these requests are held in confidence through privacy provisions of the Episcopal Church’s canons, the release said. “However, the complainants in this request gave their approval to allow themselves to be made known to the bishop,” the release said, “as a courtesy to Bishop Lawrence, so as not to be cloaked in a shroud of secrecy.”

The complainants hope that their disclosure “will prevent any suppositions that may be asserted in the upcoming days or weeks that the Episcopal Church may have initiated or encouraged the filing of this request,” the release said.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Benjamin the Red on October 18, 2012, 05:17:18 PM

--

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Shanghaiski on October 18, 2012, 05:25:40 PM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Thank you very much for this, Podkarpatska. It is appreciated.

It was depressing to see another round of "Oh look at those awful Episcopalians" etc

Ebor (sigh)

Yes, Ebor old friend. But it is painful for us to watch the disintegration of the ECUSA and I suspect a lot of the perceived attitude about "those awful Episcopalians" is really "hope this doesn't happen to us" over the same issues. :-\

Perhaps for some it is painful (and I thank you for the "old friend"). But sometimes it seems that things are not as you wrote but that there are some who might be seen as enjoying that another Church is having trouble, "Schadenfreude" as it were.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Ebor on October 18, 2012, 07:27:47 PM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Never said we didn't. Sheesh.

But the crack about lawsuits and "holy" would not be taken without comment if someone made against it an EO jurisdication.

Just for information's sake, there are Anglican traditions and holiness and lawsuits aren't part of the Book of Common Prayer, or Lesser Feast and Fasts or any other custom that I know of. :-\

Nevermind.

Just saying it's unfortunate. St. Mark's in Denver, a historic church, became Orthodox (or a significant portion of the congregation did), but they were sued and had to abandon the building, which is now a night club. His Eminence Metropolitan Philip, may he live forever, would probably have no qualms doing the same thing, and Metropolitan Platon fought for his cathedral in the courts.

The Book of Common Prayer is missing a lot of things embraced by the Episcopal Church.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: FormerReformer on October 18, 2012, 08:08:49 PM

As a former Episcopalian, I think I'm going to enjoy following the news on this one. South Carolina precedent should net a "win" for this diocese.

Yes, as an Orthodox Christian were it one of our Dioceses I'd be calling schism. But as a former reformer, I love seeing corrupt Protestant hierarchy get a spanking.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Ebor on October 18, 2012, 08:50:59 PM

I try to not derive pleasure from unfortunate or painful occurrences myself.

:(

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Ebor on October 18, 2012, 08:53:09 PM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Never said we didn't. Sheesh.

But the crack about lawsuits and "holy" would not be taken without comment if someone made against it an EO jurisdication.

Just for information's sake, there are Anglican traditions and holiness and lawsuits aren't part of the Book of Common Prayer, or Lesser Feast and Fasts or any other custom that I know of. :-\

Nevermind.

Just saying it's unfortunate. St. Mark's in Denver, a historic church, became Orthodox (or a significant portion of the congregation did), but they were sued and had to abandon the building, which is now a night club. His Eminence Metropolitan Philip, may he live forever, would probably have no qualms doing the same thing, and Metropolitan Platon fought for his cathedral in the courts.

The Book of Common Prayer is missing a lot of things embraced by the Episcopal Church.

Are you former Anglican? or have a familiarity with the BCP? that you make such shots at another Church?

The Prayer Book still has a lot of basics like the Psalms, and prayers and some words of Our Lord.

Ebor ( :( :-\ ) "as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise"

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: FormerReformer on October 18, 2012, 09:00:07 PM

I try to not derive pleasure from unfortunate or painful occurrences myself.

:(

Well, I think the pain for the Diocese of South Carolina will be short-lived after all is said and done. More painful, I'm sure, was trying to walk the tightrope of being an orthodox diocese in a denomination that has made it very clear orthodoxy is no longer an option. Bishop Mark Lawrence did his best to avoid the inevitable, but tEC seems intent to purge those not willing to walk in lock-step with their "progressive" ideals.

Now, pain to the wallet of tEC when it loses South Carolina, and the howling of their lawyers after the inevitable court loss? I feel no guilt about taking pleasure in that pain 8)

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Nephi on October 18, 2012, 11:25:50 PM

Wait. The local Episcopalian Bishop allows local Episcopalian priests to have same-sex marriages if/when Ohio (aka not in the South) legalizes them. How does that play into this mess?

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 18, 2012, 11:31:53 PM

Wait. The local Episcopalian Bishop allows local Episcopalian priests to have same-sex marriages if/when Ohio (aka not in the South) legalizes them. How does that play into this mess?

Source?

Not knowing the details, I would say that that bishop likely won't be brought up on any charges by the national church. The Episcopal Church is quite friendly towards same-sex ceremonies; I don't think that it has an actual same-sex marriage rite, just yet.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Nephi on October 18, 2012, 11:43:01 PM

Wait. The local Episcopalian Bishop allows local Episcopalian priests to have same-sex marriages if/when Ohio (aka not in the South) legalizes them. How does that play into this mess?

Source?

Not knowing the details, I would say that that bishop likely won't be brought up on any charges by the national church. The Episcopal Church is quite friendly towards same-sex ceremonies; I don't think that it has an actually same-sex marriage rite, just yet.

Sorry, I did make one mistake: it allows the BLESSING of a same-sex union (on a trial basis as of 2010), but not the marriage itself. And there may be more recent information that I'm not finding.

Sources:http://www.diosohio.org/digital_faith/dfcfiles/1400213

Quote

Does the diocese allow blessings of same-gender unions?

Yes. The bishop and a task force developed policies and procedures for requesting permision for the blessing of same-gender unions. Read the policy and find other information.

This group has gone far beyond my initial request in stating the theological convictions that underlie the policy, in developing a rite of blessing for trial use,

This is the apparent PDF of the rules for the rite of blessing:http://s3.amazonaws.com/dfc_attachments/public/documents/1400959/Same-gender_unions.pdf

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 19, 2012, 09:03:30 AM

Reactions of local Episcopalians (http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20121019/PC16/121019188/1177/episcopalians-react-to-ongoing-church-conflict):

Quote

For many, the ongoing fights over biblical interpretations have become impossible to reconcile.

“The media tends to focus on the gay issue,” Susanne Lemke said. “This is important, but let us not be distracted from the main issue.”

To her, the larger issue is over the national church’s liberal leanings.

“It is the national church that has rejected and abandoned the truth of the Gospel,” Lemke said.....Anne Hawkes, a lifelong Episcopalian, calls herself a “moderate liberal” and attends Grace Episcopal Church, which supports the national church.

She notes that she and her siblings are theologically divided. Her two brothers lean conservative, and her two sisters lean liberal.

“But we are still a loving family,” Hawkes said. “We don’t think we need to part ways.”

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 19, 2012, 03:37:28 PM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Does each Orthodox parish own its property?

The interesting thing about the SC diocese case, is that the SC diocese last year formally acknowledged that each parish owns its property, making it hard (if not impossible, I guess) for the national church to claim SC diocese property.

The distance between The Episcopal Church and the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina widened last week when the diocese relinquished its legal oversight of all church property, sending what’s called a quitclaim deed to each parish.

The move merely formalizes an arrangement already in place, according to Bishop Mark Lawrence. “A quitclaim deed isn’t giving someone something they don’t have if they already own the deed,” he said.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: podkarpatska on October 19, 2012, 09:07:10 PM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Does each Orthodox parish own its property?

The interesting thing about the SC diocese case, is that the SC diocese last year formally acknowledged that each parish owns its property, making it hard (if not impossible, I guess) for the national church to claim SC diocese property.

The distance between The Episcopal Church and the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina widened last week when the diocese relinquished its legal oversight of all church property, sending what’s called a quitclaim deed to each parish.

The move merely formalizes an arrangement already in place, according to Bishop Mark Lawrence. “A quitclaim deed isn’t giving someone something they don’t have if they already own the deed,” he said.

That is a loaded question and a contentious one indeed and complicated. I suspect that in attempting to present a simplified answer I may make things more confusing, but I will give it a shot. In theory, the organizational and canonical structures as they apply to the status of real and personal property owned by hierarchical Christian Churches, both of the east and west, are similar among the Roman Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox traditions. All three traditions follow the ancient Christian mode of diocesan organization in which the local Bishop is entrusted by the larger church governing body with the title to property -real and personal - held for use by the diocese, including local parishes.

In each case the Bishop is the legal trustee, as the representative of a larger body. This would be a national church in the case of the Orthodox and the Anglicans and a global one in the case of the Romans. Local parishes should be incorporated with the diocesan bishop as the sole trustee and the parish is bound, part and parcel, to the diocese. The actual legal process differs from nation to nation and in the case of the USA from state to state.... HOWEVER.....

Reality often interferes with theory. In North America when the earliest Orthodox and Greek Catholic congregations settled here in the late 19th century, there were no state laws governing the establishment of an Orthodox Church or a Catholic church which was neither under the trusteeship of the local diocesan ordinary or a monastic order like the Franciscans or Jesuits. Hence many of the early Orthodox or Greek Catholic parishes were founded under the same laws governing self ruled Protestant communities on a local level similar to Congregationalists or even as fraternal religious organizations. This became a problem and led to much litigation, most of which was successfully defended by various Bishops and diocesan lawyers over the years.

Since the middle of the 20th century most parishes founded thereafter were incorporated with the consent of the Bishop and with a clear legal understanding that the property was not vested in the local congregation.

There was much litigation when parishes tried to leave Greek Catholicism for Orthodoxy or to switch from one Orthodox body to another - particularly during the Cold War. Much passion remains on the local level where these cases were litigated. (It's also why you will find five or six similar churches in any given Pennsylvania steel or coal town.)

However, it is pretty much settled law in the United States since the 1950's that the civil courts will absent themselves from asserting jurisdiction in disputes between a hierarchical body like an Orthodox or Roman diocese and a local congregation over interpretations of church law. I would casually call this the 'duck' rule - if it looks, quacks and swims like a duck - it's a duck. In other words, if a congregation has bound itself to the rules of the higher church body through practice - like accepting pastors, participating in diocesan councils or Sobors etc... it accepts all of the rules of the higher body and is bound by them, so ownership is sort of a moot point - you can't pick up your church and switch teams easily or close down and sell off the property for the benefit of the local parishioners..... (Not that it hasn't been tried from time to time.....)

This takes us to the South Carolina situation where the local Episcopal Bishop is obviously concerned that he will be removed by the National Church body - in anticipation of the same he signed off his 'title' through quit claim deeds - a dubious idea, but given some of the ways state courts in the south have tried to get around established case law to benefit the local Anglican parishes, it was worth a try. Some of the oldest parishes in the south do pre-date the organization of Anglican chartered dioceses in pre-revolutionary America so you can't make a general conclusion....

Now, just rambling along here - with the prospect of schism being mouthed by some in the OCA - one could imagine a situation similar to that developing where a diocesan OCA Bishop not yet removed by his Synod might try a similar end around play... I hope and pray that does not happen as I have lived through the decades of anger and misery such litigation leaves as its ugly residue.

This mess is going to put a lot of lawyers' kids through college and buy more than few summer homes on some coastal island from the legal fees which are going to be generated.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: FormerReformer on October 19, 2012, 09:32:06 PM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Does each Orthodox parish own its property?

The interesting thing about the SC diocese case, is that the SC diocese last year formally acknowledged that each parish owns its property, making it hard (if not impossible, I guess) for the national church to claim SC diocese property.

The distance between The Episcopal Church and the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina widened last week when the diocese relinquished its legal oversight of all church property, sending what’s called a quitclaim deed to each parish.

The move merely formalizes an arrangement already in place, according to Bishop Mark Lawrence. “A quitclaim deed isn’t giving someone something they don’t have if they already own the deed,” he said.

That is a loaded question and a contentious one indeed and complicated. I suspect that in attempting to present a simplified answer I may make things more confusing, but I will give it a shot. In theory, the organizational and canonical structures as they apply to the status of real and personal property owned by hierarchical Christian Churches, both of the east and west, are similar among the Roman Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox traditions. All three traditions follow the ancient Christian mode of diocesan organization in which the local Bishop is entrusted by the larger church governing body with the title to property -real and personal - held for use by the diocese, including local parishes.

In each case the Bishop is the legal trustee, as the representative of a larger body. This would be a national church in the case of the Orthodox and the Anglicans and a global one in the case of the Romans. Local parishes should be incorporated with the diocesan bishop as the sole trustee and the parish is bound, part and parcel, to the diocese. The actual legal process differs from nation to nation and in the case of the USA from state to state.... HOWEVER.....

Reality often interferes with theory. In North America when the earliest Orthodox and Greek Catholic congregations settled here in the late 19th century, there were no state laws governing the establishment of an Orthodox Church or a Catholic church which was neither under the trusteeship of the local diocesan ordinary or a monastic order like the Franciscans or Jesuits. Hence many of the early Orthodox or Greek Catholic parishes were founded under the same laws governing self ruled Protestant communities on a local level similar to Congregationalists or even as fraternal religious organizations. This became a problem and led to much litigation, most of which was successfully defended by various Bishops and diocesan lawyers over the years.

Since the middle of the 20th century most parishes founded thereafter were incorporated with the consent of the Bishop and with a clear legal understanding that the property was not vested in the local congregation.

There was much litigation when parishes tried to leave Greek Catholicism for Orthodoxy or to switch from one Orthodox body to another - particularly during the Cold War. Much passion remains on the local level where these cases were litigated. (It's also why you will find five or six similar churches in any given Pennsylvania steel or coal town.)

However, it is pretty much settled law in the United States since the 1950's that the civil courts will absent themselves from asserting jurisdiction in disputes between a hierarchical body like an Orthodox or Roman diocese and a local congregation over interpretations of church law. I would casually call this the 'duck' rule - if it looks, quacks and swims like a duck - it's a duck. In other words, if a congregation has bound itself to the rules of the higher church body through practice - like accepting pastors, participating in diocesan councils or Sobors etc... it accepts all of the rules of the higher body and is bound by them, so ownership is sort of a moot point - you can't pick up your church and switch teams easily or close down and sell off the property for the benefit of the local parishioners..... (Not that it hasn't been tried from time to time.....)

This takes us to the South Carolina situation where the local Episcopal Bishop is obviously concerned that he will be removed by the National Church body - in anticipation of the same he signed off his 'title' through quit claim deeds - a dubious idea, but given some of the ways state courts in the south have tried to get around established case law to benefit the local Anglican parishes, it was worth a try. Some of the oldest parishes in the south do pre-date the organization of Anglican chartered dioceses in pre-revolutionary America so you can't make a general conclusion....

Now, just rambling along here - with the prospect of schism being mouthed by some in the OCA - one could imagine a situation similar to that developing where a diocesan OCA Bishop not yet removed by his Synod might try a similar end around play... I hope and pray that does not happen as I have lived through the decades of anger and misery such litigation leaves as its ugly residue.

This mess is going to put a lot of lawyers' kids through college and buy more than few summer homes on some coastal island from the legal fees which are going to be generated.

For the Episcopalians, part of the issue is just whether or not they are indeed a hierarchical church. What is going on here is as much a clash of low/high church polity as it is of liberals and conservatives. The idea of a parish being held "in trust" of the national church is a fairly new innovation in the Episcopal church (IIRC the "Denis[sp?] canon" came about in 1979) and the question of just what sort of teeth the House of Bishops has to enforce anything is certainly in question. South Carolina legal precedent, set by this denomination back in the Civil War, almost certainly guarantees a win for the diocese over the national church. TEC's recent legal wins have all depended on states with courts that follow the "duck rule" as opposed to investigating the actual canonical, constitutional, and parish laws at play in the current chaos.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: podkarpatska on October 20, 2012, 10:14:19 AM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Does each Orthodox parish own its property?

The interesting thing about the SC diocese case, is that the SC diocese last year formally acknowledged that each parish owns its property, making it hard (if not impossible, I guess) for the national church to claim SC diocese property.

The distance between The Episcopal Church and the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina widened last week when the diocese relinquished its legal oversight of all church property, sending what’s called a quitclaim deed to each parish.

The move merely formalizes an arrangement already in place, according to Bishop Mark Lawrence. “A quitclaim deed isn’t giving someone something they don’t have if they already own the deed,” he said.

That is a loaded question and a contentious one indeed and complicated. I suspect that in attempting to present a simplified answer I may make things more confusing, but I will give it a shot. In theory, the organizational and canonical structures as they apply to the status of real and personal property owned by hierarchical Christian Churches, both of the east and west, are similar among the Roman Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox traditions. All three traditions follow the ancient Christian mode of diocesan organization in which the local Bishop is entrusted by the larger church governing body with the title to property -real and personal - held for use by the diocese, including local parishes.

In each case the Bishop is the legal trustee, as the representative of a larger body. This would be a national church in the case of the Orthodox and the Anglicans and a global one in the case of the Romans. Local parishes should be incorporated with the diocesan bishop as the sole trustee and the parish is bound, part and parcel, to the diocese. The actual legal process differs from nation to nation and in the case of the USA from state to state.... HOWEVER.....

Reality often interferes with theory. In North America when the earliest Orthodox and Greek Catholic congregations settled here in the late 19th century, there were no state laws governing the establishment of an Orthodox Church or a Catholic church which was neither under the trusteeship of the local diocesan ordinary or a monastic order like the Franciscans or Jesuits. Hence many of the early Orthodox or Greek Catholic parishes were founded under the same laws governing self ruled Protestant communities on a local level similar to Congregationalists or even as fraternal religious organizations. This became a problem and led to much litigation, most of which was successfully defended by various Bishops and diocesan lawyers over the years.

Since the middle of the 20th century most parishes founded thereafter were incorporated with the consent of the Bishop and with a clear legal understanding that the property was not vested in the local congregation.

There was much litigation when parishes tried to leave Greek Catholicism for Orthodoxy or to switch from one Orthodox body to another - particularly during the Cold War. Much passion remains on the local level where these cases were litigated. (It's also why you will find five or six similar churches in any given Pennsylvania steel or coal town.)

However, it is pretty much settled law in the United States since the 1950's that the civil courts will absent themselves from asserting jurisdiction in disputes between a hierarchical body like an Orthodox or Roman diocese and a local congregation over interpretations of church law. I would casually call this the 'duck' rule - if it looks, quacks and swims like a duck - it's a duck. In other words, if a congregation has bound itself to the rules of the higher church body through practice - like accepting pastors, participating in diocesan councils or Sobors etc... it accepts all of the rules of the higher body and is bound by them, so ownership is sort of a moot point - you can't pick up your church and switch teams easily or close down and sell off the property for the benefit of the local parishioners..... (Not that it hasn't been tried from time to time.....)

This takes us to the South Carolina situation where the local Episcopal Bishop is obviously concerned that he will be removed by the National Church body - in anticipation of the same he signed off his 'title' through quit claim deeds - a dubious idea, but given some of the ways state courts in the south have tried to get around established case law to benefit the local Anglican parishes, it was worth a try. Some of the oldest parishes in the south do pre-date the organization of Anglican chartered dioceses in pre-revolutionary America so you can't make a general conclusion....

Now, just rambling along here - with the prospect of schism being mouthed by some in the OCA - one could imagine a situation similar to that developing where a diocesan OCA Bishop not yet removed by his Synod might try a similar end around play... I hope and pray that does not happen as I have lived through the decades of anger and misery such litigation leaves as its ugly residue.

This mess is going to put a lot of lawyers' kids through college and buy more than few summer homes on some coastal island from the legal fees which are going to be generated.

For the Episcopalians, part of the issue is just whether or not they are indeed a hierarchical church. What is going on here is as much a clash of low/high church polity as it is of liberals and conservatives. The idea of a parish being held "in trust" of the national church is a fairly new innovation in the Episcopal church (IIRC the "Denis[sp?] canon" came about in 1979) and the question of just what sort of teeth the House of Bishops has to enforce anything is certainly in question. South Carolina legal precedent, set by this denomination back in the Civil War, almost certainly guarantees a win for the diocese over the national church. TEC's recent legal wins have all depended on states with courts that follow the "duck rule" as opposed to investigating the actual canonical, constitutional, and parish laws at play in the current chaos.

Thank you for your elaboration - the relevance to Orthodoxy is on point. It is my recollection that when the OCA incorporated following the Tomos that local parishes were asked to reincorporate or amend their certificates of incorporation to make clear the 'trust' status of local parishes. I know of several parishes which refused to do so and which 'switched' jurisdictions at that time. I am curious as to whether the majority of old Metropolia parishes complied at that time. I suspect that the newer mission founded parishes in the west and the DOS are clearly tied into the national Church organization. This issue will also rear itself if and when a unified structure is ever to be presented and it is on the agenda of the legal subcommittee established by the EA last year. A touchy issue indeed. (Even in the RCC there have been a 'few' noteworthy parishes who were successful in challenging their status - most were created by ethnic or trade associations dedicated to one saint or another. There is a mariner's church in New England which comes to mind, but I can not recall the specifics.)

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 21, 2012, 12:02:03 PM

Diocese Releases Statement Regarding Disassociation from the Episcopal Church (http://www.diosc.com/sys/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=457:diocese-releases-statement-regarding-disaffiliation-from-the-episcopal-church&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=75)

Excerpts:

"The Episcopal Church (TEC) has made an attack against our Bishop and Diocese, in the midst of efforts for a negotiated settlement, which has fundamentally changed our common life. ....For many years the diocese of South Carolina has opposed the primary theological direction of the national Episcopal Church (TEC). As TEC leadership has moved away from the claim of Jesus’ uniqueness, the authority of Holy Scripture, the meaning of marriage and the nature of what it means to be human, we have had to be more steadfast in our defense of these truths, and more vocal and strong in our opposition to TEC’s disavowal of them.....As a result of TEC's attack against our Bishop, the Diocese of South Carolina is disassociated from TEC; that is, its accession to the TEC Constitution and its membership in TEC have been withdrawn.....We are still the Diocese of South Carolina, holding the faith of the apostles which was handed down to us. This radical step was taken to protect our parishes and their gospel witness. We believe that though the future has much that is unknown, the God who has faithfully led us by his grace to this point will take us where he wants us to go.....To him who is able to do far more abundantly than all we can ask or imagine, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, be all glory now and forever. Amen."

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: recent convert on October 21, 2012, 12:30:30 PM

Lord, have mercy on the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina & protect it against evil.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on October 24, 2012, 08:37:57 PM

If we have left TEC, why do we still use the word “Episcopal” in our names and in our documents?

The term exists in the legal incorporated names of our Diocese and many of our parishes. Its application is far broader than and not exclusively franchised by TEC. It is rightly used to designate any church which has bishops, for that is what the term refers to in the Greek and Latin from which the English word is derived. The episcopos is the bishop. An episcopal church is simply one that has bishops. We continue, both as a diocese and as parishes to be that kind of church. This is both our legal and ecclesiastical heritage and we embrace it as such. There are other churches with “Episcopal” in the name, including the Reformed Episcopal Church and the African Methodist Episcopal Church. For many years what is now called the United Methodist Church was known as the Methodist Episcopal Church and was by far the largest church in this country with “Episcopal” in its name. Other dioceses in the Anglican Communion, not part of TEC have the word “Episcopal” in their names: The Scottish Episcopal Church, The Episcopal Church of Sudan, The Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East, The Episcopal Church in the Philippines, Iglesia Episcopal de Cuba and The Reformed Episcopal Church of Spain....

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: The young fogey on October 26, 2012, 07:37:24 AM

Religions have the rights to govern themselves and defend their property, so I don't have much sympathy for the Episcopalians' relative conservatives like Bishop Lawrence who chose to stay. They knew what they were getting into.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: podkarpatska on October 26, 2012, 08:50:35 AM

Religions have the rights to govern themselves and defend their property, so I don't have much sympathy for the Episcopalians' relative conservatives like Bishop Lawrence who chose to stay. They knew what they were getting into.

The Young Fogey know of what he speaks as he is quite familiar with the litigation failures of most of the Ruthenian Greek Catholics who sought to challenge their 'mother' Church back in the day. Very few prevailed, St. Michael's in Binghamton, NY and St. John's in Perth Amboy, New Jersey are two of the more prominent parishes which had success in the courts. Both cases turned on unique language in their charters. In the case of the New York parish the litigation took place in what was a very anti-Roman part of New York State at the time (the trial judge was a hard line Calvinist) and the fact that in 1904 when the parish's lawyer tried to set up a corporation under laws governing Roman Catholic Churches he could not do so as there was no Ruthenian or Ukrainian Greek Catholic bishop in America at that time with authority to charter the parish under then existing New York laws, so they were chartered as an independent religious association which 'freely' associated with the Greek Catholics until they left in 1938.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: serb1389 on October 26, 2012, 03:01:07 PM

^ I don't think you can pull that off today

Isn't most case law in favor of the "archdiocese" having control over the land/church & not the fragmented group?

That's what I remember from Canon Law anyway, but perhaps the Episcoplians are different there...

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: FormerReformer on October 26, 2012, 03:33:17 PM

Isn't most case law in favor of the "archdiocese" having control over the land/church & not the fragmented group?

That's what I remember from Canon Law anyway, but perhaps the Episcoplians are different there...

Well, for one, Episcopalians don't have an archdiocese. The Episcopalians in the US have traditionally been more of a loose association of dioceses and have had no real central authority- really the only model that works when trying to resolve the tension between high and low church philosophies. The current regime has been taking advantage of states where case law favors a hierarchical structure- and they are not alone in this, the Southern Baptist Convention has been declared a "hierarchy" in states where the case law has been determined largely based on Roman Catholic property disputes (for those who do not know, fundamental to Baptist polity is the idea that each congregation is its own determining body).

A look at the more conservative Episcopalians' outlook on their polity can be found here: http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2012/10/polity-politics-or-the-rule-of-law-a-response-to-bishop-whalon/ (http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2012/10/polity-politics-or-the-rule-of-law-a-response-to-bishop-whalon/).

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: podkarpatska on October 26, 2012, 03:36:23 PM

Isn't most case law in favor of the "archdiocese" having control over the land/church & not the fragmented group?

That's what I remember from Canon Law anyway, but perhaps the Episcoplians are different there...

Father you are correct in that American courts will abstain from determining internecine disputes between parties within a hierarchical church over issues related to doctrine and discipline - in other words property disputes. This goes back to the Cold War days. I have argued for years with friends that the successful outcome of cases like the one in Binghamton would not have occurred under current case law.

The testimony was clear and unambiguous that the first Church building in 1907 was consecrated by the Greek Catholic ordinary from Philadelphia, +Soter Ortynsky; the 'new' (and current) church building was dedicated by the apostolic administrator for the Greek Catholics in 1918, Fr. Gabriel Martyak and at the 25th anniversary of the Church's founding in 1929, the Greek Catholic ordinary of Pittsburgh, +Basil Takach came, blessed the new rectory and properly consecrated the Church. All of the priests serving the parish from 1904 through 1938 were Greek Catholic priests who commemorated the Pope of Rome in the liturgies. What saved the day was the unique wording of the 1904 charter which failed to mention anything about a Bishop or the Pope and the lawyer for the congregation successfully convinced the trial judge during the course of a three month long trial that what the non-English speaking immigrants who founded the church in 1904 really wanted was a congregational church with eastern trappings! The judge, a devout and published Presbyterian deacon, bought it and was affirmed on appeal. Under today's civil law following the Supreme Court's 1952 decision in KEDROFF v. ST. NICHOLAS CATHEDRAL, I suspect the facts would have led to a different decision regarding the property rights.

I have had it explained to me that some of few recent successful suits regarding Episcopalian properties against their Bishops occurred in the American South and had more to do with charter issues from the time of the American Civil War and perhaps, like in the Binghamton case in the 1940's, with pre-assumed positions of the trial judges. In other words, they were conservatives who didn't like what was going on within the Episcopal Church nationally so they looked for a way through the case law and the facts.

What is sad is that up here the Episcopal Diocese was successful in keeping two large properties - but lost the congregations. The sad thing is that the Bishop GAVE one old and venerable church property to local Muslims and is suing to force the town to approve a drug rehab in-patient facility to operate in the other located in a suburban residential neighborhood. Talk about spitefulness. As a counter example, the Roman Catholic diocese of Syracuse closed a relatively modern parish in the same side of the river that these two parishes existed and gave the new Anglican congregation a sweetheart deal for the Church, rectory and school. They are thriving.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: podkarpatska on October 26, 2012, 03:39:28 PM

Isn't most case law in favor of the "archdiocese" having control over the land/church & not the fragmented group?

That's what I remember from Canon Law anyway, but perhaps the Episcoplians are different there...

Well, for one, Episcopalians don't have an archdiocese. The Episcopalians in the US have traditionally been more of a loose association of dioceses and have had no real central authority- really the only model that works when trying to resolve the tension between high and low church philosophies. The current regime has been taking advantage of states where case law favors a hierarchical structure- and they are not alone in this, the Southern Baptist Convention has been declared a "hierarchy" in states where the case law has been determined largely based on Roman Catholic property disputes (for those who do not know, fundamental to Baptist polity is the idea that each congregation is its own determining body).

A look at the more conservative Episcopalians' outlook on their polity can be found here: http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2012/10/polity-politics-or-the-rule-of-law-a-response-to-bishop-whalon/ (http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2012/10/polity-politics-or-the-rule-of-law-a-response-to-bishop-whalon/).

You are right, the successful arguments were that the Episcopal Church USA was not really a 'hierarchical' Church like those pesky Roman Catholics or the Orthodox. That argument is as old as Henry VIII and has roiled around here and in England for centuries. High Church/ low church and so on. The irony is that those seeking to leave are theologically sympathetic to the old 'anglo-Catholic' wing of things yet they are using the low church arguments to their advantage. I suppose it is the same tactic used successfully by a few of the Greek Catholic parishes who won their cases in the 1930's like my own.

Interestingly enough, Pennsylvania courts were very pro-Roman in the 1930's disputes, while in New Jersey and New York not so much. Connecticut courts also were highly pro-Roman. However, the Kedroff decision had a big impact and remains so to this day.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: FormerReformer on October 26, 2012, 03:56:21 PM

Isn't most case law in favor of the "archdiocese" having control over the land/church & not the fragmented group?

That's what I remember from Canon Law anyway, but perhaps the Episcoplians are different there...

Well, for one, Episcopalians don't have an archdiocese. The Episcopalians in the US have traditionally been more of a loose association of dioceses and have had no real central authority- really the only model that works when trying to resolve the tension between high and low church philosophies. The current regime has been taking advantage of states where case law favors a hierarchical structure- and they are not alone in this, the Southern Baptist Convention has been declared a "hierarchy" in states where the case law has been determined largely based on Roman Catholic property disputes (for those who do not know, fundamental to Baptist polity is the idea that each congregation is its own determining body).

A look at the more conservative Episcopalians' outlook on their polity can be found here: http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2012/10/polity-politics-or-the-rule-of-law-a-response-to-bishop-whalon/ (http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2012/10/polity-politics-or-the-rule-of-law-a-response-to-bishop-whalon/).

You are right, the successful arguments were that the Episcopal Church USA was not really a 'hierarchical' Church like those pesky Roman Catholics or the Orthodox. That argument is as old as Henry VIII and has roiled around here and in England for centuries. High Church/ low church and so on. The irony is that those seeking to leave are theologically sympathetic to the old 'anglo-Catholic' wing of things yet they are using the low church arguments to their advantage. I suppose it is the same tactic used successfully by a few of the Greek Catholic parishes who won their cases in the 1930's like my own.

Interestingly enough, Pennsylvania courts were very pro-Roman in the 1930's disputes, while in New Jersey and New York not so much. Connecticut courts also were highly pro-Roman. However, the Kedroff decision had a big impact and remains so to this day.

Oh, irony abounds in the Episcopalian mess. High-church sympathizers using low-church arguments; people with no claim to any form of catholicism using hierarchical language; the fact that the the current mess itself came about because neither high nor low factions could give a central authority enough teeth to define doctrine and practice, resulting in the broad faction taking control of the seminaries and General Convention and giving themselves the teeth. It is like a Shakespearean comedy and tragedy all rolled into one.

Although the dioceses that have recently left the Episcopalians have been a good mix of high and low. Pittsburgh, for example, is as low church as low church can get without handling snakes; Ft Worth is about as high as one can get without putting anything funny in the censer.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: podkarpatska on October 27, 2012, 08:43:43 AM

Isn't most case law in favor of the "archdiocese" having control over the land/church & not the fragmented group?

That's what I remember from Canon Law anyway, but perhaps the Episcoplians are different there...

Well, for one, Episcopalians don't have an archdiocese. The Episcopalians in the US have traditionally been more of a loose association of dioceses and have had no real central authority- really the only model that works when trying to resolve the tension between high and low church philosophies. The current regime has been taking advantage of states where case law favors a hierarchical structure- and they are not alone in this, the Southern Baptist Convention has been declared a "hierarchy" in states where the case law has been determined largely based on Roman Catholic property disputes (for those who do not know, fundamental to Baptist polity is the idea that each congregation is its own determining body).

A look at the more conservative Episcopalians' outlook on their polity can be found here: http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2012/10/polity-politics-or-the-rule-of-law-a-response-to-bishop-whalon/ (http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2012/10/polity-politics-or-the-rule-of-law-a-response-to-bishop-whalon/).

You are right, the successful arguments were that the Episcopal Church USA was not really a 'hierarchical' Church like those pesky Roman Catholics or the Orthodox. That argument is as old as Henry VIII and has roiled around here and in England for centuries. High Church/ low church and so on. The irony is that those seeking to leave are theologically sympathetic to the old 'anglo-Catholic' wing of things yet they are using the low church arguments to their advantage. I suppose it is the same tactic used successfully by a few of the Greek Catholic parishes who won their cases in the 1930's like my own.

Interestingly enough, Pennsylvania courts were very pro-Roman in the 1930's disputes, while in New Jersey and New York not so much. Connecticut courts also were highly pro-Roman. However, the Kedroff decision had a big impact and remains so to this day.

Oh, irony abounds in the Episcopalian mess. High-church sympathizers using low-church arguments; people with no claim to any form of catholicism using hierarchical language; the fact that the the current mess itself came about because neither high nor low factions could give a central authority enough teeth to define doctrine and practice, resulting in the broad faction taking control of the seminaries and General Convention and giving themselves the teeth. It is like a Shakespearean comedy and tragedy all rolled into one.

Although the dioceses that have recently left the Episcopalians have been a good mix of high and low. Pittsburgh, for example, is as low church as low church can get without handling snakes; Ft Worth is about as high as one can get without putting anything funny in the censer.

Indeed the irony is incredible. I do feel for the battered faith of those within these parishes who are truly seeking our Lord in the way that their forebearers raised them to do so. Their 'leaders' have surely abandoned them along the way.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: ialmisry on October 27, 2012, 09:42:32 AM

Religions have the rights to govern themselves and defend their property, so I don't have much sympathy for the Episcopalians' relative conservatives like Bishop Lawrence who chose to stay. They knew what they were getting into.

If they chose to stay, ipso facto, they weren't getting themselves into anything. They were, however, depending on false hope and making a faulty judgement.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: podkarpatska on October 27, 2012, 10:22:35 AM

Religions have the rights to govern themselves and defend their property, so I don't have much sympathy for the Episcopalians' relative conservatives like Bishop Lawrence who chose to stay. They knew what they were getting into.

If they chose to stay, ipso facto, they weren't getting themselves into anything. They were, however, depending on false hope and making a faulty judgement.

I think that is a fair comment as the national church became something that they did not sign up for in the first place. That is the problem caused by several centuries of angst within the Anglican communion just trying to figure out where they fit in, that is, in terms of whether they fashioned themselves part of the broader ( and ill-defined from our point of view) Apostolic tradition or part of the reformers demolition of Patristic tradition. The center could not hold all of these competing interests in one big tent and we have what we have today.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on November 13, 2012, 02:50:17 PM

Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori has declared the ecclesiastical authority of the Diocese of South Carolina vacant (http://anglicanink.com/article/presiding-bishop-backs-ecclesiastical-coup-south-carolina) and has backed a faction within the diocese that is seeking to fill the “vacuum” created by the suspension of Bishop Mark Lawrence.

The loyalist “Transitional Committee” has also declared the South Carolina Standing Committee to be vacant and has formed a “steering committee” to act in its place. ....However, in a paper released on 11 Nov, the Anglican Communion Institute noted the actions taken by the presiding bishop and the loyalist group violated civil and canonical law. The Episcopal Church has “no canonical basis for the actions that the Presiding Bishop and pro-TEC local parishes appear to be taking. There is no canonical authority for an ‘Interim Bishop’ to be ‘appointed by the Presiding Bishop’ in an existing diocese. Nor is there any canonical basis for a self-appointed ‘Steering Committee’ to attempt to ‘reorganize’ an existing diocese, to ‘communicate with the Presiding Bishop’ or be advised by other bishops of the church.”

The ACI further stated the “absence of any canons authorizing what the Presiding Bishop and others are doing is proof that TEC is operating under a profoundly flawed understanding of the church’s polity.”

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Iconodule on November 13, 2012, 06:14:44 PM

On an interesting side-note, Schori's mother was a convert to Orthodoxy: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19980407&slug=2743852

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Father H on November 13, 2012, 06:53:02 PM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Never said we didn't. Sheesh.

But the crack about lawsuits and "holy" would not be taken without comment if someone made against it an EO jurisdication.

Just for information's sake, there are Anglican traditions and holiness and lawsuits aren't part of the Book of Common Prayer, or Lesser Feast and Fasts or any other custom that I know of. :-\

Nevermind.

Just saying it's unfortunate. St. Mark's in Denver, a historic church, became Orthodox (or a significant portion of the congregation did), but they were sued and had to abandon the building, which is now a night club. His Eminence Metropolitan Philip, may he live forever, would probably have no qualms doing the same thing, and Metropolitan Platon fought for his cathedral in the courts.

The Book of Common Prayer is missing a lot of things embraced by the Episcopal Church.

Don't take it too hard. Ebor doesn't even know how to spell Ybor. What does he know?

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on November 14, 2012, 09:37:34 AM

Members of one parish in the Diocese of South Carolina are not simply leaving the national Episcopal Church; they are crossing the Tiber (http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_theme=cpcb&p_topdoc=1&p_docnum=1&p_sort=YMD_date:D&p_docid=1427D6A756B0AB88&p_text_direct-0=document_id=(%201427D6A756B0AB88%20)&p_product=CPCB):

"The breakup in the Episcopal diocese has led some members of one local parish, the Anglo-Catholic Church of the Holy Communion, to make a move of their own. Five families will follow the Rev. Patrick Allen, curate at Holy Communion, into the arms of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Rev. Dow Sanderson, rector of Holy Communion, will remain part of the Episcopal Church, along with most of the congregation, and strive to be neutral as the drama plays out, he said.

The fracture comes as no surprise; worshippers at this historic downtown parish at 218 Ashley Ave. [, Charleston, SC,] have long preferred to uphold Catholic traditions.....Allen said the process of becoming Catholic will take several months.....In January, Allen and the others will join the congregation at St. Mary Catholic Church on Hasell Street to worship. Allen said he hopes to be confirmed as a priest in the Catholic Church by late spring or early summer.....More than a year ago, Holy Communion, as a parish, considered opting out of the Episcopal Church and joining the Catholic Diocese of Charleston, but that possibility faded, according to Allen, who addressed the matter in a Nov. 7 letter to the congregation.

With the split in the Episcopal diocese, Allen saw a new opportunity to pursue his goal, though the controversies were not central to his decision, he wrote."

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Ebor on November 15, 2012, 01:05:55 AM

Breaking news: "Pot calls kettle black. Pot, meet kettle." We Orthodox have our own historical litany of litigation here in North America so I wouldn't gloat over the ECUSA's problems.

Never said we didn't. Sheesh.

But the crack about lawsuits and "holy" would not be taken without comment if someone made against it an EO jurisdication.

Just for information's sake, there are Anglican traditions and holiness and lawsuits aren't part of the Book of Common Prayer, or Lesser Feast and Fasts or any other custom that I know of. :-\

Nevermind.

Just saying it's unfortunate. St. Mark's in Denver, a historic church, became Orthodox (or a significant portion of the congregation did), but they were sued and had to abandon the building, which is now a night club. His Eminence Metropolitan Philip, may he live forever, would probably have no qualms doing the same thing, and Metropolitan Platon fought for his cathedral in the courts.

The Book of Common Prayer is missing a lot of things embraced by the Episcopal Church.

Don't take it too hard. Ebor doesn't even know how to spell Ybor. What does he know?

When it comes to things Anglican I know a good deal and some things on other subjects as well.

But perhaps it is due to the lateness of the hour that I do not follow what appears to be an attempted dig at my handle... which has nothing to do with a particular section of Tampa, Floridahttp://www.ybor.org/

May I ask what I may have done or said to you or another that would warrant this please?

Ebor (from "Eboracum" but that has been mentioned before)

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on November 16, 2012, 03:12:53 PM

Bishop Mark Lawrence's letter to the members of his diocese (http://www.diosc.com/sys/images/documents/11_15_12_pc_ad.pdf), on the recent unpleasantness. It was also published in the major Charleston newspaper, The Post and Courier, 15 November 2012 issue.

"In just a few days, on November 17th, the Special Convention of the Diocese of South Carolina will meet at St. Philip’s Church in Charleston. By God’s grace and providence we will step more fully into the vocation that awaits us—taking, as we have done in the past, the Good News of Jesus Christ across the oceans and across the street. This is and shall remain our highest purpose.

As I have stated at various deanery and parish forums in the diocese this present crisis was brought about through the convergence of three dimensions of our diocesan life and the national church’s leadership—theology, morality and polity. All three have undergone and continue to undergo revision within The Episcopal Church (TEC).....It should give all our members profound encouragement to know that we have heard from Archbishops, Presiding Bishops, and diocesan bishops from Kenya to Singapore, England to Egypt, Ireland to the Indian Ocean, representing the overwhelmingly vast majority of members of the Anglican Communion that they consider me as a faithful Anglican Bishop in good standing and this diocese as part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.....Nevertheless, you need to know that the national leadership of TEC is taking steps to undermine this diocese. What we are faced with is an intentional effort by the ill-advised TEC organization to assume our identity, one that we have had since 1785.....I assure you, we continue to be The Protestant Episcopal Church in the Diocese of South Carolina, known also to our parishes and the wider community as The Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina, and more simply, the Diocese of South Carolina of which I am the XIV Bishop in succession. We are still here and by God’s grace we shall not only endure we shall prevail.

Faithfully yours in Christ,

The Right Reverend Mark Joseph LawrenceSouth Carolina XIV"

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on November 16, 2012, 03:25:08 PM

Perhaps by coincidence, also on 15 November, the Presiding Bishop of TEC issued a pastoral letter to the Diocese of SC (http://www.episcopalchurch.org/notice/presiding-bishop-issues-pastoral-letter-episcopal-diocese-south-carolina):

"Katharine, a servant of Christ, to the saints in South Carolina.

May the grace, mercy, and peace of Christ Jesus our Savior be with you all.

You and the challenges you are facing in South Carolina remain in my own prayers and in those of many, many Episcopalians. As the confusion increases, I would like to clarify a number of issues which I understand are being discussed.

1) While some leaders have expressed a desire to leave The Episcopal Church, the Diocese has not left. It cannot, by its own action.....2) I want to urge every parishioner and cleric in South Carolina to recognize that, as long as you wish to remain in The Episcopal Church, no leader, current or former, can exile you, remove you, or separate you from it without your consent. That decision is yours alone.....4) Clergy in the Diocese of South Carolina should be advised that they remain members of this Church until they renounce their orders or are otherwise removed by Title IV processes. ....5) The same is true of all – The Episcopal Church will do everything in its power to support loyal Episcopalians who wish to remain members of this Church. ....At the same time, we recognize that an individual may decide that his or her spiritual growth means the individual needs to find another worshipping community...."

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on November 17, 2012, 04:45:51 PM

The following address was given by the Rt. Rev. Mark J. Lawrence (http://www.diosc.com/sys/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=469:bishop-lawrences-address-to-the-special-convention&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=75), XIV Bishop of South Carolina, at St. Philip's Church, Charleston on Saturday, November 17.

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the founder and perfecter of our faith….” Hebrews 12:1—2a

When this Diocese last met in a convention at St. Philip’s, it was September 16th, 2006. I was one of three candidates for the XIV Bishop of South Carolina.....For since that day on September 16th this Diocese and I have passed through two consent processes for Bishop, and two Disciplinary Board procedures for Abandonment of the Communion of The Episcopal Church—the last without our even knowing it and while we were seeking a peaceable way through this crisis. I have not done the research but I suppose two consent processes and two disciplinary board procedures is and may well remain unique in the annuals of TEC.....But I must say this again and again. This has never been about who is welcome or not welcome in our church. Its about what we shall tell them about Jesus Christ, his mercy, his grace and his truth – it is about , what we shall tell them when they come and what we shall share when we go out. ....All this might be what lies behind the question often raised at the deanery and parish forums I’ve been addressing—“Bishop, with whom will we affiliate?” My answer has been quite simply, “For now—no one.” As any wise pastor will tell you, if you been in a troubling, painful or dysfunctional relationship for a long period of time and then the marriage or relationship ends, you would be wise not to jump right away into the first one that comes along and tie the knot. You’d be wise take your time. Nevertheless, I hope we can work with and for a greater unity among the Anglican Churches within our local region and also within North America. We have many friends and bonds of affection that unite us and along with this—a common mission, Christ’s Mission and unity will deeply assist it.....Nevertheless, this I assure you, there shall be lengthy and thorough conversation among the clergy of this diocese—our bishops, priests, and deacons—and our lay leaders before any decision will be presented before this Convention that would ask you to associate with any Province. I remind you of an historical fact—this diocese existed after the American Revolution for four years before it helped to fully form the Protestant Episcopal Church in these United States and before that organization was completed. It was a fifth year before this diocese ratified that relationship at our Diocesan Convention in 1790. So for now and the foreseeable future, having withdrawn from our association with TEC, we remain an extra-provincial Diocese within the larger Anglican Communion; buttressed by the knowledge we are recognized as a legitimate diocese by the vast majority of Anglicans around the world. Truly, we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on November 18, 2012, 10:09:34 PM

On, Saturday, November 17, 2012 (http://www.diosc.com/sys/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=470:diocese-of-south-carolina-turns-the-page-looks-forward&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=75), the Protestant Episcopal Church in the Diocese of South Carolina met in Special Convention at the “mother church of the Diocese,” historic St. Philip’s Church in Charleston. There, an overwhelming majority passed three resolutions.

DISASSOCIATIONThe first, by voice vote, affirmed the act of disassociation taken by the Bishop and Standing Committee of the Diocese, in response to actions of The Episcopal Church.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Ruprecht on November 19, 2012, 12:13:05 AM

These are indeed heady days for the EpiscopalDiocese of South Carolina and I pray for the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide them in their self determination. Just to add a smile or two to their days, I would refer them to the blog "Bad Vestments", to remind them of who it was, Archbishop Schori, who invited them to leave.....[url]http://badvestments.blogspot.com/2011/05/comeback.htm/url]This post is the latest to feature this liturgical fashion maven, but there are some real beauties in the older posts. BTW, I could not seem to get the search function to work properly; there are not too many to page thru, and besides, just flipping the pages will provide one with hours of amusement! (edit: oddly, the hyperlink did not work. You may have to copy and paste, but it's worth it!)

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: FormerReformer on November 19, 2012, 10:37:11 AM

These are indeed heady days for the EpiscopalDiocese of South Carolina and I pray for the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide them in their self determination. Just to add a smile or two to their days, I would refer them to the blog "Bad Vestments", to remind them of who it was, Archbishop Schori, who invited them to leave.....http://badvestments.blogspot.com/2011/05/comeback.html (http://badvestments.blogspot.com/2011/05/comeback.html)This post is the latest to feature this liturgical fashion maven, but there are some real beauties in the older posts. BTW, I could not seem to get the search function to work properly; there are not too many to page thru, and besides, just flipping the pages will provide one with hours of amusement! (edit: oddly, the hyperlink did not work. You may have to copy and paste, but it's worth it!)

Fixed the link for you.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on December 06, 2012, 02:00:27 PM

“For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.” 2 Corinthians 4:5

The Presiding Bishop called me this afternoon to inform me that she and her council of advice have “accepted my renunciation of ordained ministry.” I listened quietly, asked a question or two and then told her it was good to hear her voice. I did not feel any need to argue or rebut. It is the Presiding Bishop’s crossing of the T’s and dotting of the I’s—for their paper work, not my life. I could point out the canonical problems with what they have done contrary to the canons of The Episcopal Church but to what avail? TEC will do what they will do regardless of canonical limitations. Those canonical problems are already well documented by others and hardly need further documentation by me. She and her advisers will say I have said what I have not said in ways that I have not said them even while they cite words from my Bishop’s Address of November 17, 2012.

Quite simply I have not renounced my orders as a deacon, priest or bishop any more than I have abandoned the Church of Jesus Christ. As I am sure you are aware, the Diocese of South Carolina has canonically and legally disassociated from The Episcopal Church. We took this action long before today’s attempt to claim a renunciation of my orders, thereby making it superfluous.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on December 07, 2012, 06:46:15 PM

Kevin Kallsen interviews Bishop Mark Lawrence (http://www.anglican.tv/content/anglicantv-interviews-bishop-lawrence) the day after the Diocese of South Carolina amended its Constitution and Canons to remove any association with General Convention or the Episcopal Church.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on December 09, 2012, 03:25:15 PM

Quote

CHARLESTON, S.C. - The Most Reverend Katharine Jefferts Schori, Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church (http://www.scnow.com/news/state/article_4a55e060-4177-11e2-a81d-0019bb30f31a.html) will visit the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina January 25-26, 2013 as Episcopalians in the diocese gather in Charleston for a Special Convention to elect a new “provisional” bishop and other diocesan leadership.

The visit will give Episcopalians in the Diocese of South Carolina an opportunity to welcome Bishop Jefferts Schori and receive encouragement from her as they strive to continue the work of The Episcopal Church, of which their diocese has been a part for more than 200 years.

Bishop Jefferts Schori will be welcomed with a reception and other special events on Friday, January 25. On Saturday, January 26, she will convene a Special Convention at Grace Episcopal Church, 98 Wentworth St. in Charleston, and preside over the convention while delegates elect a provisional bishop and fill other vacant offices in the diocese.

While the Bishop Schori is in Charleston, at Grace Episcopal Church (which decided to stay in The Episcopal Church), Bishop Lawrence and his supporters will be holding 2012's "Mere Anglicanism (http://www.mereanglicanism.com/)" conference, at St. Philip's Church (one of many parishes that decided to leave The Episcopal Church). It will be an interesting weekend in Charleston; luckily, Grace and St. Philip's are several blocks away from one another -- otherwise, sparks might fly!

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on December 11, 2012, 01:23:25 AM

“I would like to make a point of clarification (http://www.diosc.com/sys/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=1&Itemid=75) for those who think we became a new entity upon our disassociation. A brief history lesson seems in order. We were founded in 1785 (prior to the founding of the Episcopal Church). We were incorporated in 1973; adopted our current legal name, “The Protestant Episcopal Church in the Diocese of South Carolina,” in 1987; and we disassociated from the Episcopal Church in October of 2012. We did not become a new entity upon our disassociation. A new entity will need to be created by those who choose to leave the Diocese and re-associate with the Episcopal Church.”

-- The Rev. Canon Jim LewisCanon to the Ordinary, Diocese of South Carolina

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on December 17, 2012, 12:47:34 PM

The Primates of the Global South of the Anglican Communion (http://www.diosc.com/sys/images/documents/tec/gs_support_12_14_12) to Bishop Lawrence:

"We want to assure you that we recognize your Episcopal orders and your legitimate Episcopal oversight of the Diocese of South Carolina within the Anglican Communion."

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on January 06, 2013, 10:16:09 AM

Diocese Seeks Declaratory Judgment to Prevent Episcopal Church from Seizing Local Parishes and "Hijacking" their Identities

Quote

St. George, SC, January 4, 2013 –The Diocese of South Carolina, the Trustees of the Diocese and congregations (http://www.diosc.com/sys/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=488:diocese-seeks-declaratory-judgement-to-prevent-episcopal-church-from-seizing-local-parishes-and-qhijackingq-their-identities) representing the vast majority of its baptized members today filed suit in South Carolina Circuit Court against The Episcopal Church to protect the Diocese’s real and personal property and that of its parishes.

The suit also asks the court to prevent The Episcopal Church from infringing on the protected marks of the Diocese, including its seal and its historical names, and to prevent the church from assuming the Diocese’s identity, which was established long before The Episcopal Church’s creation.

“We seek to protect more than $500 million in real property, including churches, rectories and other buildings that South Carolinians built, paid for, maintained and expanded – and in some cases died to protect – without any support from The Episcopal Church,” said the Rev. Jim Lewis, Canon to the Ordinary. “Many of our parishes are among the oldest operating churches in the nation. They and this Diocese predate the establishment of The Episcopal Church. We want to protect these properties from a blatant land grab.”

The Diocese of South Carolina was established in 1785 as an independent, voluntary association that grew from the missionary work of the Church of England. It was one of nine dioceses that voluntarily joined together to form The Episcopal Church in October 1789, which eventually became an American province in the worldwide Anglican Communion, also a voluntary association.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on January 24, 2013, 01:31:27 AM

St. George, SC, January 23, 2013 – South Carolina Circuit Court Judge Diane S. Goodstein (http://www.diosc.com/sys/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=497:circuit-court-blocks-the-use-of-diocese-of-south-carolina-identity-by-anyone-outside-of-the-diocese&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=75) today issued a temporary restraining order that prevents The Episcopal Church (TEC) and parishes and individuals associated with it from assuming the identity of the Diocese of South Carolina.

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Robb on February 06, 2013, 03:10:08 AM

How orthodox is the SC diocese ( by.Anglican standards)? Do they allow for women priestesses? Do they have any scruples about their orthodox stance yet still.choosing to officially affiliate with ECUSA despite the latters heterodox positions?

Title: Re: Episcopal Church Takes Action Against the Bishop and Diocese of South Carolina
Post by: Jetavan on February 07, 2013, 02:02:46 AM