Various unionist nutters have tried to claim that the outrageous BBC/MOD propaganda lie of 35,000 people at Armed Forces Day in Stirling is true. This picture was taken at 1.30pm when the crowd was largest.

There is a lot to give scale in this photo. Look at the vehicles. Look at the marquees.

Look at the marquee closest to the top on the left. There is a van parked right in front of it. From that van, we can measure that it is a sixty foot by forty foot marquee.

Using simple measurement techniques, it is easy to see that the entire crowd could fit into three – or at most four – of those marquees. Perspective is on the side of crowd overestimate as the marquee is further away from the camera than any of the crowd.

If you observe rationally, and look at the clues as to scale, it is not difficult to work it out. That the MOD can claim 35,000 people is a lie by a factor of about twenty times. That the BBC repeats this state propaganda is worse than anything I have seen recently on Russia Today or Chinese state CCTV.

And here is the crowd by the climax – the Red Arrows fly past at 5pm. I have seen more people at a garden fete.

154 Comments

What is the source of your photographs? I was there yesterday and while I would say that the crowd did not reach 35,000 there were certainly many thousands watching the Red Arrows, more than your photograph would suggest.

Hi Craig, Stuart Campbell of Wings over Scotland was watching the TV feed from the BBC about the AFD and apparently they never mentioned the word “Bannockburn” once, only referring to “other events” in Stirling.

He tweeted the BBC’s James Cook about it but never got a reply as far as I know.

So pleased to see the BBC getting caned again for its atrocious and inaccurate reporting of trivial events like this and its non-reporting of the genocide in Eastern Ukraine and the Austerity march on which 50,000 people showed their distaste for harsh government measures. We are paying a television licence fee that cannot be questioned because the BBC will not even respond to questions against its policy. We need to get rid of the board. Here journalist Owen Jones very articulately takes the BBC to task. 6,000 people have already complained.

Whilst I greatly welcome the complete and utter disproving of sate propaganda displayed by this picture, it is unfair to suggest that RT.com exaggerates headcounts to any real extent just because it is funded from Russia. As they are trying to become an independent alternative to BBC, CNN, Aljazeera, CNN, etc. RT would have to be very careful to ensure that any figures they provide are verifiable.

The UK seems to have already become an insular state… e.g. Cameron has been hammered by the rest of the world’s media regarding his stance over Juncker, but he got a favourable press in the UK. His party has figured that most UK citizens don’t care what the rest of the world thinks… and they may be right?

Well, Anon, CNN got away with it with those “images of celebrating Palestinians” after 9/11, so the BBC obviously thought they could get away with it as well. And of course they always do, because most people are completely unaware about “news management” (actually, lies and deception).

How do they expect societies to evolve and get better when they resort to such methods…

Maybe they’ve run away to tell their bosses, Craig… who’ll then have to “manage it further” (more lies and deception?) Well, that’s my experience of public sector “clever young things” who get found out. I’m sure we can all remember “the dodgy dossier”.

LOL, Craig. However did Blair get promoted so far beyond his capability and get us into this mess? One assumes that the ptb could see what sort of society he was about to create when his policies started to bite, from 1998 on… I’m fascinated by the NLP theory, but surely a potential leader would have been screened for “unhingedness” beforehand.

I have given up watching or reading any of the corporate media as I find these an exercise in delivering mushroom treatment; keeping the punters in the dark and throwing manure at them.

However, as I was channel surfing, whilst eating my breakfast I stumbled on the aunty’s embittered stenographers debating Iraq; with a bitter tone delivering the news about the “second hand, old, (1970s old) Russian jets delivered to the Iraqis” (paraphrasing) had me in stitches. It is evident that the plans have not panned out for Iraq and Putin (I am aware of the congenital hatred of Russians) is pissing on the parade of the relevant “masters of the universe” with glee, by sending the jets to Maliki.

However not to digress too much, the auntie and her corporate gaggle of stenographers inflating the numbers and faking the photos ought to be a given by now, and it should come as no surprise.

Maybe, Jake, but don’t you agree that they shouldn’t have blatantly lied about it? This looks particularly despicable after what happened (or according to the BBC didn’t happen) at Parliament Square last Saturday.

With 35,000 ppl, half of whom probably have cameras, there should/will be literally thousands of photos on facebook and other sites that verify the true numbers. From the above pics, it’s hard to see how 20x the apparent number (1600 odd) would be comfortably accomodated.

Many who attended the Bannockburn Day left later and dropped by the AFD but the 35,000 they boast about is pie in the sky .

As an ex soldier i am angry that the servicemen were used as a poltical tool for the NO vote. I heard they were also handing out BT leaflets to the crowd. . Against the rules you know.Not that it will make much difference as most soldiers i know ( a fair few too) state loudly and proudly the will vote YES.

The BBC, MSM and Westminster have abused and lied to the people of Scotland since day one of this referendum and will pay a price when independent Scotland closes down the whole shop.

Pravda would be proud of the Beeb.

Lets see if they mention the protests this afternoon at PQ about their bias and spin for pro union drivel.I won’t hold my breath.

@Fedup: It is worse than “mushroom management”, it is blatant lying. You know, the sort of thing Tony Blair unbelievably got away with back in 2002 & 2003, and I’m suddenly very hopeful and optimistic for the future as I realise that millions (including Armed Forces) haven’t forgotten those lies.

I don’t know about the rest of the “unionist trolls” but I’ve been painting the spare room. Just stopped for a cuppa.

Hint:- When you’re in a hole, stop digging. This has clearly got you rattled and devoting two threads to it is beginning to smack of desperation. Perspective makes it extremely hard to estimate dimensions and trying to scale everything from the tiny image of a van which is parked obliquely to the marquee simply isn’t going to work.

‘As an ex soldier i am angry that the servicemen were used as a poltical tool for the NO vote. I heard they were also handing out BT leaflets to the crowd.’

If that’s verified, R Duncan, it is contemptible.

The relocation of AFD from Edinburgh to Stirling this year, the blatant over estimates of the numbers attending (confirmed by the photos here), and the Beeb’s treatment of the event yesterday, certainly smells like state sponsored stage management in support of the No campaign.

If the promised in/out referendum on the EU is actually held in 2017, I’ve no doubt the PWB will use the same tactics again in support of a vote for the status quo.

The propaganda machine seems to be in the hole, Kempe. Yes, they do need to change their approach to news management. The BBC have obviously got their own internal subversives (see “most popular”) and even without Tony Benn some of their number do have some sense of balanced reporting (and they also pay a license fee…)

“The relocation of AFD from Edinburgh to Stirling this year, the blatant over estimates of the numbers attending (confirmed by the photos here), and the Beeb’s treatment of the event yesterday, certainly smells like state sponsored stage management in support of the No campaign.”

First of all there was no relocation of AFD from Edinburgh to Stirling. The main parade is held in a different town every year. There are events in both Edinburgh and Stirling every year.

Second, the photos confirm nothing except Craig’s desperation and fanaticism. The authoritative sources, who were there and are in a position to know, are saying the event was a great success.

“I think Stirling has put on an absolutely brilliant show. The crowds are much bigger than expected.” David Cameron

“It’s fantastic that so many people came out to recognise those who serve.” Alex Salmond.

“I am delighted that Armed Forces Day has been such a success ” Angus Robertson

Lying about numbers at marches, events etc is standard practice for the BBC. They’ve been at that for as long as I can remember, but there’s always room for doubt. It’s subjective, not an exact science blah blah. We’re well used to their antics.

What you need to do is catch them out in blatant lying, rewriting, inventing and so on. Then you’ll really know them for what they are.

Never mind “news management” the owners ought to change their approach to governance. Discounting those brainless morons whom support the current status quo along with the lickspittles (shills; paid or idealogical) blighting the debate on this board and elsewhere, whom collectively will not have so much as a pot to piss in. The rest of us are awakening, and are asking; we bought the dream, we bought the ticket, we paid the price, but where are our promised goodies? (Ponzi scheme victims calling in their claim)

The fact is the asymmetrical welfare benefits of rich take all and become super rich while the rest of us are told; you can suck our thumbs, will not do. The only method of control of the great unwashed, has been for years; you too can be rich; someday, somewhere and do what you wish, as the hopes of the great riches have been dashed and there is nothing but thumbs left to suck on there is no control. Hence the infantile last resort to lies and deceit to keep the gravy train rolling just for a while longer, but the writing is on the wall!

What happened with the lies yesterday is the direct opposite of what the Met do in London. At many protests I have attended, they have always halved the numbers attending cf what the organisers have reported.

They have a special department to do it. Add 1, subtract 2, add 1 subtract 3….

Has anyone considered the average weight of the attendees? A crowd of fat people may appear more numerous than it actually is.
Also, people carrying their hat instead of wearing it may be counted twice in an aerial photos.

Fred: Is that your personal opinion as a resident of Sutherland ? Extensive knowledge of goings on in Edinburgh and Stirling ? Do you know where both cities are ? Are they close to Waverlie ? That is never 35,000 people ! Craig isn’t desperate, he is correct.And he was right about you too.

The first is about a MAA critical report on the lack of collision warning systems on Tornado jets which caused two to collide and the loss of three lives and the severe injury to a fourth airman. The MoD has been holding the report back. The collision occurred in July 2012. What about the relatives Mr Hammond? Have a care.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28071240

A really great turnout at the BBC protest, with, I’d say, 1500 at least, contrary to their spurious headline.

Professor Robertson gave a fine speech, not a word of it covered by the BBC. He made a particular point about the constant repetition of fear-laden stories/quotes, the deference shown to No business bodies like the Weir Group (who sold the weapon pipe sections to Saddam) and offered many interesting thoughts about the insidious connections between senior BBC Scotland figures and the No political cast.

He also specifically criticised all those notable media researchers/academics who have failed to come and help defend his work.

All in all, a great, colourful and positive protest, signifying the widening disaffection of Yes voters towards the BBC. While recognising the visual support being shown by some staff from behind the BBC windows, much talk today of a necessary purging of this propagandist organisation if indy comes about.

“Fred: Is that your personal opinion as a resident of Sutherland ? Extensive knowledge of goings on in Edinburgh and Stirling ? Do you know where both cities are ? Are they close to Waverlie ? That is never 35,000 people ! Craig isn’t desperate, he is correct.And he was right about you too.”

I have never pretended knowledge of anything. The only people in any position to be able to have a reasonable estimate of the numbers are the organisers. I merely posted links to what those with the data said. Craig however gave an authoritative “1,600” figure, not about 1,500, not between one and two thousand, 1,600. He hasn’t however stated how he knows this.

Same with the Bannockburn event. I have no way of knowing how many people were there, I must just rely on reports of what the organisers said, 10,000, not the 20,000 stated by Craig.

“A Node. Indeed. Re that Robben penalty shout, I think his track record as a known diver cost Holland there.”

Then he hurdles a crazy tackle in the penalty box which would’ve been a sure-fire penalty if he went down.Then he gets hacked down twice, either of which should’ve been a penalty, but the ref ignores both.Then he takes another dive and is awarded the penalty which wins the game.

Looking at this field on Google Earth you can clearly see the mark in the ground caused by tractors crossing the field from the gate on Dumbarton Road. This allows you to use the ruler to measure the area available. There is 1000ft from the far end of the crowd to the fence at Raploch Road and about 200ft in the section across at the nearest end. 1200ft would allow 600 people to crush up in line abreast, so the spectator area would be very packed with 3000 people. Clearly it is not packed out in the picture.
There are about 250 people on the grass below the castle, 100 on the road and another 100 in the entrance.
If you round that up to 1000 by including all the people that are milling around in areas away from the spectator areas you could be generous and say there were 2,500 people there, but I think 2000 is probably closer.

‘Finally Some English Officers Gained the Courage to Stand Up Against the Politicians.

Siegfried Sasson and many others had had enough! This is his Open Letter of 31 July 1917 to the Government, published in The Times. Other writers like Kipling (after the loss of his son John) and Tolkien himself a Lieutenant (after the loss of his two best friends) along with Purvis; all created the current of opinion. This Was Very Powerful for the time and could have resulted in Sasson’s own execution. Interestingly when charged it was successfully argued that the author was suffering from: Shell Shock!

A Soldier’s Declaration

I am making this statement as an act of willful defiance of military authority, because I believe the war is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it.

I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this war, upon which I entered as a war of defense and liberation has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purposes for which I and my fellow soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them, and that, had this been done, the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation.

I have seen and endured the suffering of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust. I am not protesting against the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and insincerity’s for which the fighting men are being sacrificed.

On behalf of those who are suffering now I make this protest against the deception which is being practiced on them; also I believe that I may help to destroy the callous complacence with which the majority of those at home regard the continuance of agonies which they do not share, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realize.

“In 2008, the Rand Corporation released a report specifically about the military personnel deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. It put the economic impact of PTSD, including medical care, productivity and suicides at $4 billion to $6 billion over two years. These numbers are growing every day. And without early intervention, diagnosis and treatment, the cost to our economy will skyrocket.”

Saving Syria’s Children ‘field’ hospital revealed
Posted by Robert on June 30, 2014, 1:10 am

Thanks to a new fundraising campaign by Hand in Hand for Syria it is now known that the “basic hospital funded by handouts” which featured in BBC Panorama ‘Saving Syria’s Children’ as the setting for the aftermath of the extremely dubious “playground napalm bomb attack” has until recently been funded by “a European donor which supports global emergency response.. ..via an INGO partner” to the tune of “between $60,000 and $70,000 a month”.

It is described as “One of the country’s most sophisticated remaining hospitals”

The campaign has garnered coverage in the Times and Guardian

I have commented under the Guardian piece (see below) – last time I posted a link to my blog on ‘Saving Syria’s Children’ on CiF I received an email telling me it was “potentially defamatory”, so not sure how long this one will stay up.

**************************

Hand in Hand for Syria co-founder and chairman Faddy Salhoul’s Facebook banner reads “We will bring Assad to justice, no matter what lives it takes, no matter how much catastrophe it makes”. This hardly sits with Hand in Hand for Syria’s declared purpose (on the Charity Commission website) of “the advancement of health or saving lives”.

In a 29 August 2013 BBC News item Ian Pannell described Atareb (as it is now known to be) as “a basic hospital funded by handouts”. The inaccuracy of this description is now revealed by the list of facilities and the funding arrangements discussed above.

That this funding was in place prior to the “incendiary bomb attack” of last August 26 which featured in Panorama ‘Saving Syria’s Children’ is clear from Hand in Hand’s website, which in a June 2014 article states “after one year our agreement with our INGO partner has come to an end”.

Dr Rola Hallam, who ‘starred’ in ‘Saving Syria’s Children’, writes “The hospital costs between $60,000 and $70,000 a month to operate, depending on our field costs”.

Wider issues around Panorama ‘Saving Syria’s Children’ are currently under consideration by the BBC Trust.’

The Theatre of War
Oct 8th 2013http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/10/the-theatre-of-war/
My last post on the BBC footage of Syrian casualties – and the different versions of what the doctor said – has brought me a deluge of emails, not least from the Guardian who have been in touch with the BBC and, if the Guardian can get over its phobia at ever mentioning me at […]

Fake BBC Video
Oct 7th 2013http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/10/fake-bbc-video/
Irrefutable evidence of a stunning bit of fakery by the BBC: In this version the medic being interviewed says about the 2 minute mark: “..It’s just absolute chaos and carnage here, erm we’ve had a massive influx of what looks like serious burns, er seems like it must be some sort of chemical weapon, I’m not […]

My nan told me on her deathbed that her father had been shot as a deserter. Her shame was such that she was never known to have otherwise spoken about this. Her father’s captain had given the family money and no one loved the queen more than my nan. But the illusions she rationalised into being were of little comfort in the end.

I found that Guardian article to be the normal establishment guff, sentimentalising the political reality out of existence: The horror! Shellshock! Can’t judge then by our standards now! Blah blah blah…

Here is a rare first hand account of WW1 rebellion that you won’t get in the Guardian or on the BBC: The Calais Mutiny.

The BBC only carried the anti-austerity protest last week on satellite TV. Radio 4 listeners wrote intelligently to Feedback to ask why. Was there political input? BBC management was not helpful – Roger Bolton’s less than satisfied.

So good to see Costa Rica join the quarterfinal for the first time, I would have loved to be there last night, they must be still partying now.

David is delighted at Junckers 26-2 win and wants to work with him, pretty please. But thewre is change on the horizon as Germans, as well as her own deputy, realise that austerity has given a helping hand to the rightwing populists all over the EU.
Sigmar Gabriel might want to see Cameron soon and talk reform, but will Cameron want to talk to him, he is a socialist who has been sitting on the sidelines for some time.

Sigmar Gabriel comes from Lower Saxony and has no crux with those who are critical of immigration calling the speech of his own colleague ‘verbal violence. Gabriel called the actions of Israel as that of an apartheid regime’

I’ve listened to the BBC’s response from their angry listeners, and although the presenter seems genuinely concerned, the corporate response (other news stories that day) is “far from convincing”. I hope they get more complaints based on that response.

Would have loved to have gone to Bannockburn live but cost was, unfortunately, too high for family of 4. Children should have been at a substantial discount, but hey, I digress.

We WOULD have gone to Armed forces day but refused due to the blatant political gerrymandering which brought it here. I did not want my families day out to be used as a point scoring exercise by Westminster and No camp. How many others thought the same?

The debate is lost, the outcome irrelevant, if this indepedance vote malarky is reduced to opposing nationalistic celebrations. Yet again people are being suckered into the wrong arguments by those who would lead us.

I’ve listened to the BBC’s response from their angry listeners, and although the presenter seems genuinely concerned, the corporate response (other news stories that day) is “far from convincing”. I hope they get more complaints based on that response.

My opinion exactly. Particularly as Dolly Parton’s performance at Glastonbury, and Costa Rica playing football have been heading up the R4 News for some hours. Other news stories…yeah.

“…there were certainly many thousands watching the Red Arrows, more than your photograph would suggest.”

Hello Grownups.

I’ve been a bit too tied up with getting to the bottom of all that EU stuff to comment here for a while. But I’m back home briefly to tidy a few things up, change Dad’s litter tray and make a few last minute adjustments before heading off in search of the mysterious…

I don’t want to waste too much space here on Uncle Craig’s blog so I’ll be brief.

The agitation around the notion of an electrically dynamic caused by my question, “Where does all the charge go?” stirred me to go and check it out for myself. So I adapted some plans I found in an old DIY book and cobbled together an Adams Infinite Improbability Drive. That big pile of old gin crates by Dad’s shed and a few boxes of odds and ends turned out to be just the job and by last weekend I was running a few tests on “The Spirit of Gordon”.

It all was going well and I’m sure I’d have reached the Enceladus Plumes had not an unexpectedly strong field from the BBc’s massive improbability drive sucked me into a strange and rather disturbing backwater of space/time known as Stirling.

There, sheltering from the rain under a 40 acre camoflage sheet, dressed in strange costumes and looking rather disoriented, was a seething mass of at least 35 thousand human-like lifeforms. If you look hard at Craig’s photos I’m sure you will see the tell-tale signs.

I hope that clears the matter up once and for all.

…

Now that the test runs are completed I’m off again, for how long I don’t know.

I’ve drugged a few of the regulars and bundled them on board. I’ll let you know what duties have been allocated later and, since I’m a fair-minded kind of troll I’m open to suggestions, aside that is, from Fred manning the forward Vrebal Blasters for defence against who knows what we’ll meet, A Node looking after the Main Logic Circuit, Ba’al using his irresistable charms in the Alien Interface Suite and Mary at the other end of the ship running the Library and PA System.

One thing that Blair did get right was keeping armed forces celebrations “low key” because he knew the extent of the opposition. It was a highly crass decision by Brown to try to stoke up the political war machine when he came to office. Trying to take us back, it would seem to the “Empire Day” celebrations that my parents told me about from their youth.

In times of austerity, and continuing public opposition to neocon wars it seems like a bad idea to try to make political capital out of the armed forces, and the only way they can do this at such times is by telling lies. We know politicians tell lies, but the BBC certainly shouldn’t! Car sticker anyone?

There’s been quite a few soldiers getting vocal on how AFD was hijacked for political purposes.There’s the orders from above to let propaganda filter down and a big push on to have the enlisted men register for a proxy vote.
My question Craig is ,what will happen to all those proxy votes ? Will they be collected by the Army first and then forwarded on for counting ? Or will they simply be normal post and collected and counted with the rest of us ?
Forces Proxy votes must be open to massive fraud.

@Youknowmyname: Probably wouldn’t be a first. Harold Wilson seemed to be suggesting that such people were influencing opinion regarding the second 1974 election. I don’t know whether that was just sour grapes/paranoia or that there really was something going on at that time.

Of course the security services are already very involved in the referendum, including through cyber activity. Between GCHQ, MI5, MI6 and SO15 there are 60,000 of’em. What do you think they do all day?

The BBC lied about the AFD and there will be no correction or apology. The lie is barely even plausible: the entire population of Stirling is only 41,000.

There is a useful concept called Gell-Mann Amnesia. You are reading a newspaper and the article is about a topic you know a good deal about. You realise the writer knows nothing about it, has misunderstood the main ideas and, perhaps deliberately, misrepresented everything. What a pity. You turn the page and read the next article, something about the Middle East, and believe it all, forgetting what you learned on the previous page.

Show solidarity with four anti-militarism activists this Monday outside Glasgow Sheriff Court to denounce and protest the charges they are facing as a result of their action on Saturday June 28, Armed Forces Day.

The four audaciously occupied the Finnieston Crane and unfurled banners reading ‘Resist Militarism’ and ‘#WhiteFeather’ in dissent of the glorification of war and increasingly US style culture of militarism.

Come and support them in recognition of their heavy-handed treatment over the weekend being refused bail and to demand that their charges are dropped. Please bring placards and banners!

Proportionality should be the order of the day here, Mary. What was handed out to Lindus Percy for her endeavours, and repeat endeavour? What happened to the Greenpeace activists who climbed Big Ben before an anti-war march?

The current activities were embarrassing to the establishment, and would therefore be perceived as requiring discouragement, but “in proportion”. My concern is that Westminster will try to lean on local decision-making, but that itself could backfire.

“The BBC lied about the AFD and there will be no correction or apology. The lie is barely even plausible: the entire population of Stirling is only 41,000. ”

The BBC didn’t lie about anything, the MOD say there were over 35,000 there. Many of them would not be residents of Stirling, though I would expect most residents of Stirling will have called in at some time during the day it being free.

Craig’s claim of 20,000 for the Bannockburn event is a different matter, the organisers never made that claim, the arena was only licensed for 10,000. That would class as a lie.

Fred- the Bannockburn show was 10,000 each day. Armed forces day was one day, and as the photos show, certainly never made 35k, even with people coming and going. Simple as that. Moreover, the bannockburn one was ticketed, which means that the organisers scanned the tickets and could tell you exactly how many people were in there. But AFD was unticketed, so you’ll have to rely on whoever was trying to count people at the gates or other, more error prone methods of estimation.

However Craig is just being stupid with his insistence on only 1600 folk at AFD. Quite a few will have just popped along from town to see what it was like for an hour or two then gone away again. I doubt many would have stayed all afternoon, but either way, you’d be surprised how many people can be in one area at once.

I have analysed your father’s contribution to this voyage. His weight : utility ratio < pencil sharpener. I believe you have been swayed by what you humans call "sentiment." His continued presence on board is illogical.

@Fred: That is as bad a lie as when Margaret Thatcher, before an election (at times of inflation) said that child benefit will in future be paid as now. No-one took that to mean there wouldn’t be an annual increase, but the next annual increase was indeed 0%, and those who complained were referred to the text of the manifesto.

This, and your interpretation of the BBC’s claim of 35000 can be classified as the nasty. Not just lying, but deliberate manipulation through (mis)truth. And I suppose you think you are being clever!

To tell you the truth I think the very notion of treating the numbers at the events as some sort of competition is incredibly juvenile and a worrying aspect of the Nationalist mentality.”
____________________

I’d certainly agree with Fred on that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also find the ~Scottish nationalists’ fascination with the Battle of Bannockburn…..rather curious.

Almost as curious as the Serbs’ fascination with another 700 year old battle
(the Battle of Kosovo)…..

Fred: Then tell that to the unionist media, the BBC especially, for lieing about the Armed Forces Day attendance, it is their ‘fascination’ and fantasy numbers that have produced this reaction. And call them out for scheduling the AFD events to coincide and collide with and disrupt the long-planned and publicised Bannockburn Event at the same location. Get busy, the BBC are over that way –> somewhere and I’m sure they’ll take you seriously.

You’ve really shown your hand with this nonsense, it’s not just contrariness, there’s an agenda I doubt you even understand yourself, it is deliberate and malicious, no-one could be so stupid, and continually acting so long ago got overly wearing.

I see too that you’ve got a new friend, or are you and ‘it’ already acquainted?

“I see too that you’ve got a new friend, or are you and ‘it’ already acquainted?”
________________

You sound upset with Fred, Tony. Is that because he usually gets the better of twits like you and the other Freedom Fighters (LOL) ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hints on how to mount a convincing argument, Tony : don’t get carried away by the sound of your own voice; be succinct and avoid over-long sentences; muster points in your mind in a logical manner before typing; prefer facts to making up things; keep to the point and don’t side-track; and most important of all, sound as if you believe what you’re saying. Attaboy!

Fred – nope, Craig can reasonably claim 20k at Bannockburn because that’s the capacity, and it was a sellout, and of course with tickets all this can be totted up at the end of the day. Thus your point is simply stupidly wrong.

AS for comparing numbers, it was the AFD folks who started it, and the overwhelming impression given on the news down south is that Bannockburn was not very good or well attended and AFD was wonderful and smelt of roses.

The photos above, as well as the undisclosed counting methods of whoever claimed it, indicate a different story, as does my own experience of the visitors and their comments and interests. I took part in the Bannockburn 1314 area, dressed as someone in 1314 would have been. I am well aware of the politics and stupidity which marred the organisation, and have a list of things which should have been done better and of PR which was flat out lies (No, they didn’t use historical combat techniques because they kill people, and there were only 150 costumed people there, not 300, and only 100 on the field, not 300). Nevertheless, the way the media are presenting things is almost enough to make me feel like voting for independence, even although I’m not really for it.

Habbackuck seems to overlook the English fascination with all sorts of battles, like Trafalgar, or Crecy and Agincourt, or Hastings. Hastings has a very good re-enactment every few years, with a thousand or two fighting, archers, dozens cavalry etc. By contrast Bannockburn has managed 2 or 3 hundred at most with a handful of horses.

The truth is of course very difficult to find and Craig unintentionally or elseways has affirmed a need to correctly frame a story based on actual events.

Essentially we realise the MSM is only serving the interests of the corporate and political elites. Here lies the rub considering most times the MSM set the agenda which dominates the conversation. An excellent example was the lies fed into the media and reported in the run-up to the Iraq war ie we were 45 minutes from doom or armageddon.

I myself believe we are at a MSM/New Media tipping point because lost revenue has resulted in bureau closure and therefor less correspondents on the ground. We have seen a rise or expansion of New Media as the Internet has grown to provide feeds such a ‘twitter’ etc and video streaming through services such as ‘Bambuser’ and also social media. Leaks such as WikiLeaks, Global drop and SecureLeak and many others have resulted in a radical transparency without the MSM prism of filtering and lies. The trick here is to EDUCATE people best we can to consume such output. More and more citizen journalism is becoming de rigueur; as an off-ball example I use amateur radio to obtain information from citizen observations on the ground as available in a number of countries.

We must remember that electronic communication may have started the landslide that gave us a ‘No’ vote in Parliament against the NATO bombing of Syria.

In truth we are a small open-minded community here at Craig and I accept we must develop and expand. The push-back from our military/security state is gathering more powers. NSA/GCHQ is not looking for terrorists.

The ship is quiet now, save for the occasional rumble from Fred’s drums.

…

Mary’s difficulties operating capcha (12 27pm) may yet prove problematical since an important duty of any ship’s librarian is to calibrate the Polynomial Kropotkyn Homology Field so that unexpected spikes in oriented submanifold pulses don’t precipitate intrinsically geometric combinatorial shifting, which, in singly graded abelian groups can quickly corupt the symplecti Lagrangian isomorphisms and scramble the library’s entire data bank.

…

Ben (2 49pm) thought he was off on a holiday and, after deactivating the smoke alarm in the observation dome, proceeded to burn some kind of herb, unaware that the ventilation system was disorienting the entire crew.

…

A Node’s request (3 23pm) to recycle Dad came as a shock since we all thought we had left him safely ensconced in his shed back in Surbiton.

A quick check of the ship’s instruments picked up Dad’s tell-tale morphic field emenating from a dark corner of the laundry bay, where a large grey crate was soon located bearing the logo “HABBA-POD®”.

Under Galactic Statute 38657, Section 78 any unregistered cryopods are required to be delivered intact to the relevant authorities at the next inhabited destination, so, although A Node’s logic was impecable, his request had to be denied.

It later emerged that Dad’s signal was also being picked up from his Surbiton base so we are left wondering what the Habba-Pod contains, unable for legal reasons to recycle it and unwilling, out of plain common sense, to activate the resussitation process .
…
So, as the melodic humming of the Improbability Drive shifts down into maintenance mode, I’ll engage the auto pilot, activate the BBC shields and turn in.

Not the best of starts, but, as the old saying goes, better than having your brain sucked out by Altairian Grobwaats.

The improbability drive is already overloaded and your father’s delusional ramblings are adding to the problem. His incoherence index is in the red and his non sequitur output has gone critical. The chief engineer has informed me that the engine “just canna take any more.”

“Fred – nope, Craig can reasonably claim 20k at Bannockburn because that’s the capacity, and it was a sellout, and of course with tickets all this can be totted up at the end of the day. Thus your point is simply stupidly wrong. ”

Bullshit. The capacity was 10,000 as was confirmed by the organisers. They are quoted on STV and a multitude of papers that 10,000 were there not 20,000.

Oh dear Fred, I know you are stupid, but I didn’t think you were that stupid. Bannockburn live was over 2 days.
2 x 10k = 20k. It was definitely a sellout on Sunday, and I heard it was on Saturday too. I did of course mean the entire event over the entire weekend, but obviously I didn’t make that clear enough for you to understand.
In fact reading back, your not understanding that Bannockburn was over 2 days seems to be a common thread. That’s how Craig gets 20k for it, because it was a 2 day event. Have I repeated that often enough for you? Actually I’m amazed you managed to complete the anti-spam sums, or do you use a calculator for them?

Clarke – there undoubtedly is a difference between capacity and attendance, but I am not aware of any figures which break that down for either AFD or Bannockburn. Good luck finding some. Plus, as a paid, ticketed event, people would not come and go from Bannockburn, they would go in, and then leave never to come back. But AFD would, as a free event by the town centre, likely have people popping in and out, which would help the figures. But there’s certainly not 35k in the photos.

The postings of absolute trivia, over the exact numbers who attended either event, or even some other event, in the local Stirling – Falkirk area are frankly, mind numbing.

The petty squabbling over crowd density at events, and other such trifles will do little to promote the sales of your literary volumes, I suggest.

Whilst you criticise a goodly proportion of potential purchasers of your volumes, in these pages here, I wonder if you will reflect on reduced sales, when readers become aware of your biased parochial ideology.

In the Upper Picture (“almosrnobody.jpg”)there are well over 1000 in the field in the foreground alone (COUNT THEM) yet they are sparsely spread out. It is quite difficult to separate the people in the larger more dense crowds around the arena, but I’d guess it will be substantially greater than just an additional thousand as you have suggested.

The trouble with disinformation like “what 2000 people look like”,
is that it is fairly easy to check that, by simply doing a physical head count in the photographs.

“Is it possible that there’s a difference between “capacity” and “attendance”? People come and go throughout the event; either figure may be larger than the other.”

Armed forces day was a free event and people will have been coming and going all day long. Looking at a photograph and claiming it shows how many different people attended during the entire day is pretty stupid.

The Bannockburn event was ticket only, it’s quite easy to prove exactly how many people were there on that day and for the entire day. There were 10,000, not the 20,000 Craig claimed.

Nit Pickers – I wouldn’t say there’s more than a thousand in the field. I counted a couple of blocks of 100 and compared to the entire field, and get maybe 600. Some of the coloured blobs are bags but even being generous with it, I don’t see more than a thousand there. Craig is of course wrong with his insistence on 1600; I think there’s several thousand more in the event.
But either way, 35k is certainly wrong, and since they were wanting 50k attendance (Look up older media reports, they say 50k) 35k is hardly a gigantic win and shows the suppleness and lack of honesty of the people who put it on.

“The postings of absolute trivia, over the exact numbers who attended either event, or even some other event, in the local Stirling – Falkirk area are frankly, mind numbing.”

Nit Pickers at 2 Jul, 2014 – 2:44 am

“In the Upper Picture (“almosrnobody.jpg”)there are well over 1000 in the field in the foreground alone (COUNT THEM) yet they are sparsely spread out. It is quite difficult to separate the people in the larger more dense crowds around the arena, but I’d guess it will be substantially greater than just an additional thousand as you have suggested.”

@A Node
well yes OK it seems like a contradiction on my part,
but still I hoped that my intervention would illustrate
the futility of using that kind of headcount argument,
especially when it is transparently untrue.

Well, yes, I agree that the number crunching was crazy. At 29 Jun, 2014 – 4:48 pm I tried to inject some sanity back into the thread (it didn’t work):

“Has anyone considered the average weight of the attendees? A crowd of fat people may appear more numerous than it actually is.
Also, people carrying their hat instead of wearing it may be counted twice in an aerial photos.”

I’m going to take advantage of this nearly forgotten thread to experiment with a long string of characters after my name. Don’t tell the mods.