"... after the health care bill is passed, Congress and the President are going to focus on jobs."

Yes, that hat's right. They're going to focus on putting the rest of you out of jobs by vastly increasing the number of illegal Mexican immigrants they allow into the country.

They see it as their path to continued electoral dominance.

The Obama Administration has already totally stopped all workplace enforcement on the hiring of illegal aliens. It is now freely allowed for some companies to illegally hire Mexican immigrants in the country illegally - because those we have elected to enforce our laws are deliberately not doing so.

Republicans will be providing an assist - so don't look to the Republican Party for any help on this issue.

Lindsey Graham will join Barack Obama to seek amnesty to all current illegal aliens in the country - opening up the floodgates for millions more to come in so that wages can be forced down further.

Your country is being systematically destroyed by enemies from within.

It provides some nasty penalties if you don't cover all your staff, but the penalties are perhaps 3-4% of personnel costs while health coverage is 16%.

So a firm can have a new 10+% labor advantage by dumping it's health plan onto the Feds (excuse me, the Exchanges) and let the Won subsidize coverage. If you don't dump your coverage it will be hard to win work.

Firms that don't dump coverage may have a recruiting advantage, but in this job market that doesn't mean as much.

The DemonRats don't care if avery caterpillar job turns into a butterfly and lands in China.They have feathered their nests and easily told the lies that amount to telling working men and women to die quickly just like their Malthusian ideal calls for.

No one cares what caterpiller thinks--unless, of course, you want to have the machinery that sustains our infrastructure. What Mr Obama and the democrats don't understand is that there are limits to their ability to influence the decision making that occurs in profit making firms. That seems to me to be their most egregious mistake--time will tell. I suspect at the end of the day Caterpiller will still be in operatin when Mr Obama and many congress critters are out of their job which consists, as far as I can see, of sucking at the government teat.

How dare those greedy bastards whine about a paltry $100,000,000.00. Our dear leader has promised us that we can insure a net new 40,000,000 people and save money by doing it. That's because he is magic, and money grows on trees.

I'm pretty ashamed of myself right now. I bankrupted my kids and their kids. I slept while those theives in Washington played deem'n pass with our money. I didn't know that the bastards were doing it, but I should have. They've been playing us for fools for years. Read the bills--ha. Vote on them--meh.

And don't buy that crap that our legislators are voting their consciences. You can't vote what you don't have. About the kindest thing I can think to say about them is that they're simply dim witted fools. So if I deem and pass this bill, the Senate promises to do everything I asked Santa for. No--they're liars and thieves.

"Caterpillar's stock price has gone from about $24 on March 1, 2009...to $60 today."

That's because the Federal Reserve is deliberately inflating the stock market by paying .25% interest on savings.

There is nowhere for large investors such as Calpers and other pension funds to put their money except in the stock market.

It's an artificial bubble that Tim Geithner and the Fed have cooked up. And just when all the money gets all invested there, they'll pop the bubble and we'll watch another $20 Trillion on wealth disappear overnight.

That should make just about everybody wards of the state.

You fuckers just want to start a war and that's what you're going to fucking get I suspect.

A TN congressman Bart Gordon, changed his vote from a no to a yes.A new little goody was directed his way by giving TN a break in the Medicaid reimbursement formula for 2 years. However, the Dem. governor Phil Bredesen, sent Gordon a letter asking him to vote no. Bredesen said the health care bill was very damaging to TN budget in years to come. God, I loathe these turncoats like Bart Gordon. It's as if they don't think their children and grandchildren are going to have to live with the repercussions of their fiscal irresponsibilty.

"So maybe they can afford to provide insurance for the people who do the work."

No, Jeremy, they won't.

They'll just take those jobs overseas where they're not required to pay tribute to Barack Obama's largest campaign donors - the insurance companies.

Then, not only will the jobs be lost forever, the insurance won't be had and the taxes those employees used to pay will be gone and those employees will become tax consumers getting unemployment checks.

Have you ever run a business, Jeremy? Do you think large multi-national corporations such as Catepillar will keep their jobs here when they're being robbed by the President of the United States?

You're a fucking moron Jeremy, and each comment turd you drop proves that once again.

Caterpillar Inc. is considering relocating some heavy-equipment overseas production to a new U.S. plant, part of a growing movement among manufacturers to bring more operations back home—a shift that will likely spark fierce competition among states for new manufacturing jobs.

*And once again I ask the question: What do YOU think they should do with that additional 34 billion they have today...that they didn't have when President Obama took office?

And have all of you told your companies to discontinue your own insurance?

Jeremy: You do not understand market cap. Market capitalization does not equal cash. Surely you know this. Surely you are pulling our legs on this one.

Catepillar does provide insurance to its employees. Their contention is that it is going to be more, not less, expensive under the new "plan." Fine if you don't believe them.

On the other hand they can dump their insurance plan entirely and pay a paltry fine of $750 per worker and let the workers get a very quick and clear lesson in Obama care.

In the meantime google market cap and while you are at it figure out the difference between the following: debt, equity, EBITDA, cash flow, earnings and NOI. Being able to distinguish between revenues and profits is also a handy tool for most people. For liberals not so much but you might be curious why the other side is upset.

"WASHINGTON — Conservative talk show hosts and columnists have ridiculed an 11-year-old Washington state boy's account of his mother's death as a "sob story" exploited by the White House and congressional Democrats like a "kiddie shield" to defend their health care legislation."

See, Obamacare is a jobs program. That $100 million will go to paying white collar accountants to figure out the additional taxes. Any jobs lost will be factory workers; which we will discover during the Amnesty dicussion later those are jobs Americans won't do.

It would have been simpler and cheaper to give every American a voucher for $2,500 per year to help buy health insurance IMO. Plus we could have saved a lot of paper cause the bill would have comprised only my first sentence above vs. 2,700 pages.

In the words of Martin Luther King, I dream of a world where I can say STFU to anyone who whines that they do not have health insurance.

"'Well, your mom would still have died, because Obamacare doesn't kick in until 2014.'"

Beck said: "Since all of the groups are so concerned and involved now, may I ask where were you when Marcelas' mother was vomiting blood?"

She did not have health insurance, which will lead many conservative to scorn and hate here. BUT:

"Owens was an assistant manager at a fast food restaurant when she became sick in September 2006. As she became sicker, she missed work and was eventually fired, leaving her without health insurance. She was treated twice in an emergency room and died at age 27 after a week of unconsciousness. Gina Owens has custody of Marcelas and his two younger sisters."

New Ham: you really cannot reason with Jeremy--not worth the effort to try--His ultimate rejoinders are "duh" and "suck my dick"--he is simply not the sharpest tool in the shed. Poke fun at him all you like, but he is not here to reason--only to be the resident bomb thrower.

Of course not (and I misspoke in a previous comment), but they do have an additional 34 billion in market cap, the stock price has increased from $24 - 60 and if you think they're handing that out to the shareholders you're crazy.

Caterpillar has been a terrific company for decades on end, but just because they say the insurance reform will cost them an additional 100 million doesn't make it so.

The ONLY reason so many wing nuts here jump on it is because it's just one more way to denigrate President Obama.

When the oil companies say they're really hurting...do you also buy that?

How about when Enron was whining and bitching (sound familiar?)...were they also telling the truth?

How about AIG, BofA, Lehman, Goldman...do you believe everything they say?

If we had single payer health insurance like so many civilized countries do then Cat would be completely relieved of their health care cost burden and better able to compete internationally and maybe employ a couple Americans.

Jeremy: If the stock goes up the amount of cash the company has does not go up. The price of the stock is a reflection of the value of the company by the investing public. It does not mean they have the new price of the stock times the number of shares in cash. Please stop embarrassing yourself, it is cringe making. Really.

I'm the founder of a solar energy start up company and after seven years of work we are within a week or two of getting funded.

Our investor sees a lot of value in what we are doing but asked one thing of us: That we not outsource any significant ongoing work outside America (which thrilled us of course).

He said he is willing to risk a lot of money with us, but wants to ensure that his money goes to create as many American jobs as is feasible within a solid business plan.

Anyway, I just got off the phone with him and found out that his accountants and attorneys are now telling him that the new tax on investment returns (3.7% I believe) and increased employee health costs associated with the health care bill along with the increased likelihood of follow-on bills that add costs makes our funding deal "unworkable".

Hearing that was a like kick in the gut for both of us. We are going to try to make it work of course, but our forecast budget was tight as a drum already. What really sucks is that we had budgeted for excellent pay and benefits for every employee we hire - including great health care options.

I'm sitting here waiting for my partners to get here so we can try to figure out what we can do to salvage the situation and I was checking the web for information about the investment tax and other costs that were heretofore unknown to me - there's not much out there - and checked in here out of habit. I guess I just needed to vent a bit - sorry.

Jeremy: Send money to the kid with the dead mother and go back to trying to figure out the difference between cash on hand, net profit, profit after tax, and market capitalization. Or simply demand your 3,000% rebate from your insurer right away. You deserve it. Every American deserves it. Its a right, like health care.

A quick surf on the web shows that long before this bill was even drafted Caterpillar was cutting retirees from health benefits and raising retiree costs. Their retirees sued them over health care.

Interview with Caterpillar CEO James Owens, ca 2004:

"You've been adding capacity overseas, notably in China, but haven't built a new factory here in years. Is manufacturing in the U.S. becoming too hard?It's challenging, and one of the biggest challenges is spiraling health-care costs. Old, traditional manufacturers like us have carried a lot of that burden for our employees. We have to put more individual responsibility in making wise health-care choices. That's why we're looking for cost-sharing from our hourly workers. Premiums, co-pays, and deductibles will do that. But it's a national problem. Increasingly, government policymakers have got to think about U.S. manufacturers competing in a global theater."

Jeremy--identifiying the problem is the first step in solving it--doing what other people do may not be the best way to fix it. (I assume) you think that a government run single payer is system is the way to go, great--I don't happen to believe that. All of these issues can be sorted out at the ballot box.

I really get a kick out of the whining and bitching one can read here every day of the week.

While you idiots scream, complain and moan about everything related to President Obama, and blather on about how he's literally destroying our country, I've bought shares and options in at least ten different companies that have skyrocketed in value.

And guess what...Caterpillar is one of them.

Instead of tea bagging it, why not invest in a thriving market? The more money people invest in companies, the more they can expand (like Caterpillar), and the more jobs they can provide.

By next year the economy will rebound, and by the time the 2012 election comes around President Obama will be enjoying an approval rating in the 60's, maybe even higher...and that's even with the obstructionist GOP doing what they can to stand in the way.

And since you all evidently think "socialized" medicine is the devil's work...I suggest you all call in today and make sure you're taken off of the current or future Medicare, Medicaid rolls immediately.

Alpha, that story is getting derided because it's bullshit. Can you explain how a sick single mother with no job was not able to qualify for Medicaid? It's simply not possible. The programs were already out there. If she didn't take advantage of them then, how can we assume she would have now?

Judge not lest ye be judged. I guess you can speculate without knowing details. By all means, elaborate from your all-knowing perch!

From the article:

'Gina Owens said her daughter didn't qualify for Medicaid. State officials said that without knowing the details, it was impossible to speculate on whether Tifanny Owens would have qualified.

Tifanny Owens might have been eligible for Washington state's basic health care plan, which is aimed at the working poor. The plan has had a long waiting list for some time, said Sharon Michael of the Washington state Health Care Authority.

Alpha--thanks. You really nailed it on the source of the problem. The United States is, as far as I know, the only contry that lays health care on the employers. As I recall from my course work, this goes back to the 1920s when firms in California first hired insurance companies to care for their employees. Not that the employers motives were pristine--in fact, they wanted their employees to be healthy so they could produce. Altruism wasnt involved--purely profit motive. But that is ultimately what capitalism is all about.

F15C: The surprise tax on "unearned income" is 3.8% or a 25% increase over what the current capital gains rate is. You will not have any liberals respond to your post because they haven't a clue to capital formation, the close tolerances of angel investor returns or the agony of start up sweat equity labor. They could care less. There are people posting here who believe that the increase in the value of a share of stock is money in the company's coffers. I would hope your investor can stick with your program but in any case your payday is postponed by an amount equal to the incremental profits required to pay this new government obligation and hit your investor's preference. Good luck to you.

As the bill saves hundreds of billions of dollars it is self-financing.

Krugman addresses this in his column today:

"Actually, the proposed reform does more to control health care costs than any previous legislation, paying for expanded coverage by reducing the rate at which Medicare costs will grow, substantially improving Medicare’s long-run financing along the way."

A TN congressman Bart Gordon, changed his vote from a no to a yes.A new little goody was directed his way by giving TN a break in the Medicaid reimbursement formula for 2 years. However, the Dem. governor Phil Bredesen, sent Gordon a letter asking him to vote no. Bredesen said the health care bill was very damaging to TN budget in years to come. God, I loathe these turncoats like Bart Gordon. It's as if they don't think their children and grandchildren are going to have to live with the repercussions of their fiscal irresponsibilty.Software Testing

"AlphaLiberal wrote Althouse posts this but ignores the skyrocketing health care premiums of insurance companies."

Which they will now do even faster, since that's what it's designed to do. The current rises in cost are due to people wanting the best new available treatments and the speed of them coming available which will always cost more, and government mandates and regulations that reduce competition and choice.

These things will only get worse now. And with less investment in new medicines and fewer doctors care will be decline while additional mandates with further reduction in competition will continue to raise costs. Bottom line is higher costs less care, less choice.

For many of us the current system does miraculous work and does it at a fair cost. Another great American institution to be killed by progressives. Previous ones: the family, public education, universities, manufacturing, art, individualism, legal system, self reliance, the constitution...

"The recession began in December of 2007, he was at the switch during the real estate meltdown, the banks and investment houses blowing up, and the initial stages of massive job losses."

Yes, and let's not forget bush got the TARP bill he wanted that bailed out the banks with no strings attached was passed under Bush. His Administration fought the strings and things were collapsing so fast there was no strong pushback - from either party.

for the record, I agree that some Democrats bear blame for helping to relax regulations that allowed such recklessness to take place.

Jeremy: I can assure you that George Bush knew the definition of market cap and that stock increases did not flow to the coffers of the issuer. Please please please do not comment on business matters. You look extra dumb. It is very troubling to anyone who is concerned with American education and its decline to read your posts on economics. Very disturbing.

Julius Ray Hoffman said..."Hoosier Daddy- The 50% of the tax paying public who pay Federal income tax. Why do you keep on recycling that stupid line? Sure, I grant you that technically 50% or so pay Federal income tax, but almost all of the rest do pay the Social Security and Medicare tax."

Oh, and Hoosier evidently isn't aware of the unemployment deductions, in some areas of the country, state taxes, and of course, sales taxes.

His whole point is that he's getting screwed because some people don't have to pay taxes.

Here's a good one for Hoosier to chew on: The owners of the Los Angeles Dodgers, in recent revelations during their divorce proceedings, reported that they increased their wealth by about 400 million dollars over the past 4 years, spent over 100 million on themselves...and paid ZERO Federal of State taxes.

Alpha--you may have to look a bit, and in fairness I did my PhD course work in 1995, but I recall it was a few firms in California that I think contracted with Kaiser Permanente (or its predecessor). The original contracts hired visiting nurses to provide primary care to the firms workers--the companies originally assumed the cost of those contracts--

So if my recollection is correct (and I am an old fart now) the seeds for employer based health insurance started in the 1920s--of course that was not a national movement--it was just the first step--and I suspect the analysis you cite is probably accurate in terms of overall momentum post world war II.

Alpha Liberal: I think Comrade was implying that if very ill people are added to insurance rolls, people with pre-existing medical problems, big ones, then the insurers are likely obliged to raise rates to pay for the mandated outlays. I don't think there is a conspiracy involved.

AlphaLiberal: All conservatives are wealthy. How can you say otherwise? I for one don't give a shit if chili goes to a hundred dollars a bowl and my insurance premiums triple. As long as I can fuck the poor out of their money and keep people dying in the streets I am perfectly happy. Like all conservatives. This latest little power grab by the Dems will only open up new ways for the righties to steal from the poor. No right thinking leftie can say that conservatives aren't all rich. It is an insult vying with the hurtful term "wingnut." Apologize.

My good friend Alpha--the important thing is we are able to agree on the issue and its roots--there really is something to be said for conversation where issues are raised. and you and I agree on the problem--the solutions? probably not so much, but at least we have a mutually agreed upon starting starting place. I continue to welcome your input to this forum.

I heard that all 41 Republican Senators are offering to filibuster the $400 billion Doc Fix unless its paid for by accelerating the tax on union health plans to 2011 from 2018. (is it true?) I wonder how House Dems will react to that?

If we are going to raise taxes at least the unions should start paying too.

Jeremy: Please please please learn that an increase in market capitalization does not mean a corresponding increase in the company's cash. You are making liberals look very very stupid. The following statement: "You know exactly where the money goes when a company's stick and cap increases in such a way." is the raving of a financial illiterate.

I think Comrade was implying that if very ill people are added to insurance rolls, people with pre-existing medical problems, big ones, then the insurers are likely obliged to raise rates to pay for the mandated outlays.

I don't think that will happen. Politicians will prevent them from raising premiums enough to cover the additional costs in the name of "working for the people". Note how Obama bleats when insurers raise rates to pay for government mandates.

Insurance companies will be forced to deny treatment. In this way, the government can dictate every detail of coverage but force the unpopular decisions onto the nominally private sector, which they can use as a pretext to expand government power.

Why do you keep on recycling that stupid line? Sure, I grant you that technically 50% or so pay Federal income tax, but almost all of the rest do pay the Social Security and Medicare tax.

A lot don't, or don't pay even their fair share there. I know a number of people who have worked under the table for a long time.

But one big problems with your theory here is that all along both SS and Medicare were sold as earned. You put your money in while you can work, and then you get it out when you retire. Yeh, sure, those collecting right now are getting far more out than they put in, but that isn't going to last.

Someone described Social Security as a massive forced retirement plan hiding a much smaller welfare program. What you, and those on the left who keep pointing out that most pay SS and Medicare taxes, seem to be trying to do is cut out the connection between earning those benefits, and turn them into transfer payments.

But the problem there is that the reason that these programs have been sacrosanct for so long is that people feel that they have personally invested in them. It is their money that is talked about anytime there is talk about reducing benefits. But if you disconnect social security and medicare payments from the benefits that people believe they are earning, and consider them taxes to support the general welfare, you have just thrown away the legitimacy of these programs in the eyes of many. Once they are seen as welfare programs, and not earned, they will be much more vulnerable to being cut.

Keep in mind, you cannot double count those moneys. You can either consider them as people's payments into a forced retirement and health care system for the elderly, or you can treat them as taxes. But if you do the later, don't complain when the corresponding outlays are cut to balance the budget.

Jeremy: The WHO stopped producing that stupid list a decade ago because even that organization knew that the "ranking" was stupid. If you believe it then there are 36 splendid place you can relocate to to receive free health care. You might find the immigration policies of those countries somewhat different than you would hope, but you can try. I recommend Andorra for you since you will be surrounded by rich people who live there for its amazing tax benefits.

Maybe that's why rush Limbaugh promises to go to Costa Rica if he pass this bill. (Where they have nationalized health insurance!)

Must you put so much of your stupidity on display all in one day?

Rush Limbaugh will be going to the private clinics in Costa Rica, not to some publicly rundown hospital. I bet you also think that Cubans have access to the same facilities made available to the medical tourists.

Incidentally, there is a way to provide guaranteed health care everyone at a lower cost with no wait lists and as good or better outcomes as in the United States. Singapore does it. But the Dems never even glanced at how Singapore does it (by leaving most of the decisions in the hands of citizens). This bill has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with a political power grab.

Michael said..."Jeremy: Please please please learn that an increase in market capitalization does not mean a corresponding increase in the company's cash."

Good lord...I never said any such thing.

I said that they're crying wolf, and I base it on the fact that their Market Cap has increased by about 34 billion dollars...yet they say that the cost of insuring their employees will hurt their bottom line.

Maybe it will effect their bottom line, but it's difficult to commiserate with a company that is apparently doing quite well in the midst of an economy like we have right now.

Now...if you think that kind of increase in Market Cap has little or anything to do with the "wealth" or "value" of the company...that's up to you...but nobody who's ever taken an econ or business course will agree.

Personally, I like companies with bigger Market Caps.

Oh, and why no response to little Georgie signing that massive 800 billion dollar bailout? That was fine with you?

How about he being at the switch during as the problems developed? Okay with you?

You're just another wing nut hypocrite blaming everything on President Obama...and you know it, too.

I heard that the Democrats are no longer just the party of Tax and Spend. They are the party of Tax, Spend, and Debt, and unemployment They are making records in all these areas.

Democrats have proven all these stereotypes to be true. We are going to have record debts, record spending, taxes and record interest rates in the years to come. Passage of the health care fisaco will the the icing on the cake to economic ruin for the rest of us.

Right now the United States is ranked 37 by the world health organization.

BFD - you seem to be implying that whatever report you are referring to (please learn to provide HTML links, it isn't that hard) implies that our health care is worse than those above. Of course, that is plain silly. People don't routinely go to Canada from the U.S. for health care (and we don't have high profile governors doing it either). And you are far more likely to die on a gurney in a hospital hall in the U.K. from neglect than here. Yet, these countries are rated far above us here.

So, maybe we should be talking mortality rates from different types of cancer, than whatever metric is used by the (highly political) WHO.

Jeremy: My apologies. Some moron posing as you wrote the following which indicates that market cap is fungible and can be distributed by the company: "but they do have an additional 34 billion in market cap, the stock price has increased from $24 - 60 and if you think they're handing that out to the shareholders you're crazy."

I am not sure what the procedure is but someone using your name is posting nonsense and you should have it stopped. The person in question is an absolute moron and hurting your reputation.

Michael: "The surprise tax on "unearned income" is 3.8% or a 25% increase over what the current capital gains rate is."

You are right about the size of the tax increase (I wrote 3.7% for some reason) and on liberals not having a clue about what it takes for businesses to start and grow.

Glancing through the comments, their astonishing inability to understand what something as simple as market capitalization is and isn't would be comical if it weren't for the fact that people just as clueless as them are in charge of our nation at the moment.

Also, to be clear, the amount to be be invested in our company by this single investor is $32M - well beyond Angel level.

The deal was (hopefully, will be) to be a big deal for us, our investors (we have two angel investments, as well as our own money in this), our employees, our community, and we'd hoped, our nation.

I just got my soc sec statement and it says I earned $200 in my first year of work [on the books] when I was 16. I can't remember where I worked though? Maybe it was that new Toys R Us store during the Xmas holidays.

First, Barry and Nancy have told us this is the first step to single payer, so those evil insurance companies will be out of business - along with just about everything else.

Second, the market is anything but healthy. Most of the people who called the Swoon in '08 see another big drop coming in the second quarter.

Third, you use 'concern trolling' as if you know what you're talking about. Nobody gives a damn about the Demos that vote for this, they're just stating facts. The people who vote for this have shown how shallow their concern for the people and this country really is. And fellow travelers like Lindsey Graham should be shown the same door.

AlphaLiberal said...

...

Republicants are very reptilian, cold-blooded, cruel and callous.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when Jeremy and Alpha go up before the death panels.

"B-b-but I'm a LOYAL party member, Completely loyal. I love The Messiah and Reichsfuhrer Nancy. T-t-there's been a mistake. Call Gauleiter Hoyer. He'll vouch for me. You'll see. I've been on the exempted list all along."

F15C: Well if you are in your third round of funding the surprise tax increase and investor concern is especially bad. You are right that the people in charge probably share a lot of the financial illiteracy that is displayed in these comments with the people "leading" us in Washington. I have degrees in the humanities and never took a business course. I learned finance in the trenches and have had the privilege of raising capital for many entrepreneurs whose sacrifice, energy and perseverance have inspired. Again, good luck.

Jeremy's on his lunch break (every Friday he goes to a Reichian therapy group to get rolfed), so I thought I'd fill in for him:

Caterpillar owes back child support. They want children to die.

A search of state records also shows that Caterpillar hasn't sold real caterpillars since the 1930s. They are liars.

Also, Caterpillar once posed nude in a women's magazine. Is this a good role model?

Caterpillar's father once gave money to a university where a Holocaust denier was a student. I imagine that's okay with you Rethuglicans.

Robert Mapplethorpe owned Caterpillar stock at the time he was taking photographs of children. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But I thought you Fuckwits ought to know who you're in bed with.

Quote: The attainment values in WHO's World Health Report 20001 are spurious: only 39% are country-level observations. The responsiveness indicators are not comparable across countries; and three values obtained from expert informants were discarded in favour of imputed values. Indices of composite attainment and performance are based on imputations and thus are also meaningless.

Plus the report is 10 years old. Even if it wasn't hopelessly compromised by bad methodology, it would be hopelessly out-of-date.

The World Health Report 2000, Health Systems: Improving Performance, ranked the U.S. health care system 37th in the world1 — a result that has been discussed frequently during the current debate on U.S. health care reform.

Despite the claim by many in the U.S. health policy community that international comparison is not useful because of the uniqueness of the United States, the rankings have figured prominently in many arenas.

I've never read anything of the kind, and I've also traveled throughout the world and have never heard a disparaging word from the people who live in countries that provide health care.

Well, then. You've never read a British Newspaper. All that shows is that you're ill-informed.

I'm not surprised you never heard a disparaging word about the NHS during your backpacking tours through the English countryside. That's not a topic that usually comes up with complete strangers when you're ordering beer in a pub.

Oh, but as an immigrant to this country and one had a serious illness in one of these countries where healthcare is "provided" and also whose family includes many doctors who practiced both here and in those enlightened countries, I assure you that nothing that Americans consider real medical care exists for free in European countries. There. Now you've heard it from someone from there.

Just don't accept the coverage. Tell them you want to forgo the payments, and will handle the expense out of pocket.

But we both know you won't do that...right?

Why should I? I've already paid for that coverage, not that I had any choice in the matter. Declining coverage is not the same as not participating in the system, and since I am not permitted to not participate, I think I will not decline to try to at least recover what I've paid, plus a reasonable rate of return.

The American people don't trust the CBO, Nancy Pelosi and Obama. Get it through your thick skull Jeremy.

Oh and Thom Hartmann is officially insane. I was listening to him ranting about putting the public option back in to get more votes. Think about that, every single lefty is already voting for this bill, there are NO more lefty votes to get!

What Caterpillar and every other economics literate analyser is pointing out over and over is that every Obama Scheme grabs all of the money on the table in the name helping some people. That effectively removes the possibility of profits (that the system exists to produce)thus destroying the Capitalist system and reducing everyone to a serf of the government that produces nothing except propaganda. But we have to remember that before Obama and Pelosi can re-distribute all money and property, they first have to take it. So what Caterpillar sees as a defect, Obama and Pelosi see as the goal. The graduates from a failing command economy style of communism in Russia and China must be laughing very hard now at Reagan's Cowboy USA economics of free markets being systematically taken out and shot by our Liar-in-Chief.

Jeremy - kudos to corporations avoiding Federal corporate tax. The difference between them and welfare parasites is they provide jobs and create wealth. Evading taxes by itself is not a moral crime to me.

Jeremy: No, I don't agree. I think that the mortality rate is going to go sky high because the underclass thinks with some backup that guys like you are going to bail their fat asses out of whatever mess they get themselves into, including self-inflicted medical problems that will morph into sob stories. They will not haul their fat asses to the doctor because it is too much trouble and they don't have the energy.

Nice in Aspen isn't it? I prefer down valley, but its still pretty nice in town. Most of the people agree with each other.

But, with that said, I would have to assume any form of coverage that would allow one to visit a doctor or undergo treatment would be beneficial to anyone suffering from any type of medical problem.

From the time your symptoms present, you will wait three months for an appointment with your primary care physician (IF you're lucky enough to have one), another two months for the diagnostic test and another 6 months to two years for treatment.

If you die before you get treatment. Oh well. Officially, you had a right to health care.

Yah, I know, Alex. It's like they're cycling through their talking points (and badly, at that). But, I'm just sitting here waiting for my faxes to congress to go through, so I figured I'd screw with them for sport.

Methinks - "From the time your symptoms present, you will wait three months for an appointment with your primary care physician (IF you're lucky enough to have one), another two months for the diagnostic test and another 6 months to two years for treatment."

How the mathematically impossible will be accomplished I don't know but Obama said it so it must be true. After all, Jesus fed the multitudes with how many fish and loaves of bread? The new messiah will easily be able to decrease health insurance costs by 3000%.

The owners of the Los Angeles Dodgers, in recent revelations during their divorce proceedings, reported that they increased their wealth by about 400 million dollars over the past 4 years, spent over 100 million on themselves...and paid ZERO Federal of State taxes.

In Jeremy's world, this story is all the justification we need for increasing taxes on the small business owners and professionals making a few hundred thousand. You know, the guys who are taxed at a 50% marginal rate and are already paying the freight for everyone else.

It's like the photo negative of Reagan's story about the welfare queen driving a Cadillac and buying vodka with food stamps.

J: But since you apparently think Caterpillar should be believed, but not your own government, what do YOU think Caterpillar should be doing with that 23 billion dollar increase in their market cap?

DM: Seeing as how they don't have any of that money, not much. You're aware that they only get money the very first time they sell stocks...not every other time the stock is sold. It helps Caterpillar as much as selling used video games helps Nintendo.

J: Maybe that's why every other industrialized democratic country in the world has found a way around that problem.

Working out wonderfully for Greece. And the rest of Europe has similar problems.

J: While you idiots scream, complain and moan about everything related to President Obama, and blather on about how he's literally destroying our country, I've bought shares and options in at least ten different companies that have skyrocketed in value.

And guess what...Caterpillar is one of them.

How much of your increase in market cap did you give to others, you selfish prick?

J: The recession began in December of 2007, he was at the switch during the real estate meltdown, the banks and investment houses blowing up, and the initial stages of massive job losses.

Unemployment spiked heavily when Obama was at the controls and the Dems ran both Houses with massive majorities. Unemployment, mind you, has gotten no better.

AL: Krugman addresses this in his column today:

Well, you obviously couldn't find anybody creditable. Heck, go with Ezra Klein, if you want even more pure hackery.

AL: Yes, and let's not forget bush got the TARP bill he wanted that bailed out the banks with no strings attached was passed under Bush. His Administration fought the strings and things were collapsing so fast there was no strong pushback - from either party.

Strange, I remember the GOP being blamed when the first bill was defeated due to the lack of strings. They were blamed by Pelosi, whose Democrats LOVED the bill with no strings attached.

And, Jeremy, no corporation pays taxes. They just pass the expense on to you, genius.

Jeremy: Need to lose a few pounds do you? My deal with fat people is that their corpulence impedes my progress through airports and on the streets of the cities I visit. Their health problems are profound and directly related to their obesity. The cost of treating them is therefore averaged into my cost of treatment which unfairly weighs, if I may say so, against me. I take care with my diet, am relentless in my exercise regimen and generally take very good care of myself. I have a great deal of discipline which I find works in my favor in any number of areas. If thinking that fat people are a problem for us all makes me an asshole then I am happy to wear that title and earn it over and over. I would suggest you might feel better about yourself if you shed a few pounds. The fish and chips might have gotten the better of you over in merry old England. If you think that fat people are a benefit to our nation and a brake on our health care costs I would love to read your reasoning. Any reasoning at all would be welcome.

The United Nations Statistics Division, which collects data on infant mortality, stipulates that an infant, once it is removed from its mother and then "breathes or shows any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles... is considered live-born regardless of gestational age."16 While the U.S. follows that definition, many other nations do not. Demographer Nicholas Eberstadt notes that in Switzerland "an infant must be at least 30 centimeters long at birth to be counted as living."17 This excludes many of the most vulnerable infants from Switzerland's infant mortality measure.

Similar discrepancies in the other stats also. Of course, this never stopped a liberal from pushing their lie-driven agenda. Don't let the truth hit you in the butt on the way out.

Their health problems are profound and directly related to their obesity.

Sorry, Michael, but that's bullshit. There is a very weak correlation with obesity and diabetes and blood pressure. That's it. (And even then, there is evidence that the arrow of causation for diabetes is that it causes obesity, not the other way around.)

The problem with the overweight is that they live longer and thus cost the system more.

Jeremy;They're real motive is to make sure their profits and stock price stays up.

But since you apparently think Caterpillar should be believed, but not your own government, what do YOU think Caterpillar should be doing with that 23 billion dollar increase in their market cap?

Executive bonuses perhaps?

Here's what one of their officers did in March:

DOUGLAS R. OBERHELMANOfficer 45,399Exercised an OPTION to stuff 45,399 shares of stock into his portfolia at a price of $19.20 per share. ($862,000)

Today that stock is worth: $2,700,000

wouldn't it be easier just to say its capitalism (harumpff!)

Roger;As I recall from my course work, this goes back to the 1920s when firms in California first hired insurance companies to care for their employees. Not that the employers motives were pristine--in fact, they wanted their employees to be healthy so they could produce.

You just described Kaiser Steel in California. That's the origin of the HMO. The employee-based system came out of the post-war wage/price controls and the need for employers to offer additional compensation to attract workers without violating those controls.

Note every western country that has universal health has a single-payor system. Switzerland is one example. They're based on a mandate and a tightly regulated insurance market.

Jeremy;Right now the United States is ranked 37 by the world health organization. ...

So let me get this straight. Our health care isn't the best, we don't cover 1 in 7 Americans and yet we spend 50% more per person than the next highest country.

What you think on the subject won't matter soon because Mrs. O says that being fat is evil and once her husband is in charge of your health care he'll have all kinds of leverage to mandate behavior modification.