February 27, 2011

I took this video yesterday — Saturday, February 26th — at the Wisconsin Capitol building. Meade wanted to go back to see if the protesters had followed through on their promise to remove their things from the Veterans Memorial. The signs that had been taped to the back of the monument were gone, but there was still a lot of junk piled up against it.

The police we encounter didn't want to consult with us on camera, though I do get a clear "no" when I ask if it is against the law to photograph the police. Off camera, they are extremely articulate and professional explaining why the police are allowing the protest and occupation of the Capitol to go on the way it has.

A woman who does not have a Wisconsin accent noses in to tell me I'm "rude" to take pictures.

I say: "Let me ask you a question about 'rudeness.' This is a Veterans Memorial, for people who died in the war. These are all things..."

The rudeness expert interrupts me: "They do things for democracy, which is what we're trying to save right now."

I say: "What would you say to people that are..." And she's turned her back on me and walked away. The rudeness expert.

She had her point and she made it: The memorialized veterans "do things for democracy." That's a poor use of the present tense. They did "things." They died. They fought and they died. But what's important "right now" — according to her — is that the protesters are "trying to save" democracy.

I didn't get to ask follow-up questions, but I think her point was to equate the protesters to the veterans and to make that a justification for piling sleeping bags and all sorts of junk up against the monument. I didn't get to ask how trying to undo the results of the last election is an effort to "save democracy," and, obviously, she wasn't interested in having a conversation with me.

Fen, without knowing the details of the policemen there, I'd guess that the Department has an S.O.P. in place for dealing with the media. I know that's how it works on my bro's police force. Anything a cop says can be interpreted as (or made to look like) the "official position" of the Dept., so they're told to say nothing but the most neutral, dull things.

Also, whether there's any legal issue or not, if someone says they don't want to talk to you on camera, they don't have to talk to you. And while "rude" may not be the ideal word to describe this, it is presumptuous at best to expect that just because you put a camera in someone's face, they'll be happy to engage in a conversation with you and answer your questions. More than likely, they don't know who you are (not that it would matter if they did), and if some random person in a public place got in my face with a camera and started trying to have a conversation with me, I'd walk away or tell them to get lost.

I hate to be filmed during public meetings. It confines my participation and I normally ask the (liberal) guy who's almost always there filming not to film me. It is rude, but more than that it potentially restricts people as they may feel unsure about how that film can be manipulated later.

Ann, I anticipated her argument when I said on your first post on this subj on 2/25/@9:12 that:

"...by claiming that those so memorialized fought and died for the right to hold *exactly* the sort of "lawful" protests they themselves are presently conducting--ignoring the minor detail that in all probability at least 50% of those memorialized would have strongly disagreed with their views and resented the appropriated use of such memorials honoring their sacrifices and/or deaths as cloaking them (the protesters) with the implied imprimatur/endorsement of their actions by those long dead so honored."

And I further made an additional comment to the effect that, just how exactly do they KNOW that those that died would have approved of such actions in the first place?

What they don't want to do is speak on video. I understand that: I'm about to ask them a bunch of legal and policy questions, and I assume the department doesn't want particular statements, because they happen to be reported, to get dissected minutely. Now, of course, they talked to me, and I can report that in my own words, paraphrasing based on how I understood what they said.

"Also, whether there's any legal issue or not, if someone says they don't want to talk to you on camera, they don't have to talk to you. And while "rude" may not be the ideal word to describe this, it is presumptuous at best to expect that just because you put a camera in someone's face, they'll be happy to engage in a conversation with you and answer your questions. More than likely, they don't know who you are (not that it would matter if they did), and if some random person in a public place got in my face with a camera and started trying to have a conversation with me, I'd walk away or tell them to get lost."

She came up to me and got in my face -- while I had a camera pointed outward right next to my face. She knew I was filming. That's why she came up to me.

Now you tell me: Who was rude? She butted in, told me off, interrupted me when I tried to speak, told me off again, and immediately turned her back on me without letting me respond, without showing any interest in having a dialogue with a person who wasn't ostensibly down with the struggle.

Does the flip camera have the ability to embed a real time clock in the frame? I realize there is a time index for the clip, but a display of date and time in the frame would be useful. I see these clips as the reality of the protests. While I do not watch ABC often, I caught an evening news segment anchored by Diane Sawyer, and to see the version of the Capitol protests that came out of ABC's journalistic sausage grinder, well, you wouldn't know it was the same planet, much less the same event. Thank God for ubiquitous, inexpensive video technology - their selective interpretation can't fly anymore. And thanks to Prof. Althouse and Meade for taking the time to chronicle this.

"Glenn Reynolds has a little crusade going on about cops trying to stop people from photographing them on duty. Now you know why."

I wasn't stopped from photographing police doing their duty. Look at my pictures. Many include the police. I was never stopped from photographing them. They simply were declining to *speak* on camera. They wouldn't "consent" to interviews. As you can hear in the clip, all that meant was they're not going to talk on camera. I can understand that, and they were very generous talking to us off camera.

The point is that war memorials one-time gestures, gestures that in fact do not survive the passage of time.

People in memorial stadiums think of sports, not veterans.

The gestures don't survive with good reason.

They'd operate as a curse if they did.

As you see, from the point of view of the protesters. They have to calculate - is this crazy lady indicating a real public relations problem that (justifiably!) we hadn't thought of, or is she just crazy.

I also claim that that forgetting works in favor of veterans.

The curse of perfect memory also gives us eternal grudges in the third world, that no present resident wanted or had any part of but has to participate in.

You see it's a matter of emphasis. Althouse goes out of her way to bash liberals but does not seek out opportunities to bash conservatives. Why not stake out the state Assembly and see what dirt she can get on GOP legislators?

Nope. But absent a reasonable explanation, people are left with the impression that its because they are hiding something. Like when the Police pushbacked against camera phones that captured evidence of police brutality.

They are already suspect because they are Union members policing a Union protest in their interests. Any actions they take will be scrutinized.

Down the page, someone noted that a protester had said "the police are on our side!". His response was that its evidence of why there shouldn't be public sector unions - the only side the Police should be on is the Law's.

Now you tell me: Who was rude? She butted in, told me off, interrupted me when I tried to speak, told me off again, and immediately turned her back on me without letting me respond, without showing any interest in having a dialogue with a person who wasn't ostensibly down with the struggle.

That's parr for the course. I've tried, many times, to have a civil conversation with liberals, and almost every one acted that way. They want to say their peace - which I've always allowed them - and then, when I get my chance to speak, they interrupt and call the whole thing off.

Ann - as you are aware shiloh, Ritmo and others have accused most of us of being your blind supporters. So now we all have an obligation to become radical left wingers to appease them. I hope you understand it's all in the name of balance.

Ann - as you are aware shiloh, Ritmo and others have accused most of us of being your blind supporters. So now we all have an obligation to become radical left wingers to appease them.

Yeah, how they think is amazing. Anyone regularly here is Ann's bitch, no matter how many times we've criticized her individually. And she's a conservative, despite her voting record and various positions she's taken. And anyone who listens to Rush thinks of him as their god - even though, for instance, I hate homeopathy and he promotes Zicam.

If the protestors are still there on Monday and materials are shown still piled around the memorial - if they seem nonchalant about the sacrifices of the honored vets - one could remind them that the memorial includes those that died in the Civil War.

"MADISON — Hundreds of off-duty police officers and deputies joined protests today against Gov. Scott Walker’s budget repair bill that would strip most collective bargaining powers from about 170,000 public employees.

Police, state troopers and firefighters are exempt from Walker’s proposal, but even as some marched on the downtown Capitol Square, hundreds of other officers from around the state provided security.

They came equipped with riot gear, including helmets and batons, they said, but didn’t expect trouble."

It is becomming clear why even FDR did not think government unions are a good idea.

The cops are wrong to ask for the camera to be turned off. They don't get to have a 'consent' clause in a public place as Glenn has been documenting over the last several years.

I understand them not answering a query that puts them in conflict with official response, but they can say that rather than an incorrect "I don't give you consent" that relays to wiretapping or recording unbeknownst to the other party. This was certainly not the case here.

I would say the lefty protesters went part of the way to rectifying their bad behavior, but until they go all the way and create a separation from the memorial, they are still in the wrong and that speaks volumes about how it is all about them and unless you agree with them, tough luck. If I went and put a poster over their posters, I bet they would become quite indignant as to the act and try to stop me with a high level of rudeness to boot! Maybe because the vets are deceased in the memorial makes them think no one cares.

I would say the lefty protesters went part of the way to rectifying their bad behavior, but until they go all the way and create a separation from the memorial, they are still in the wrong and that speaks volumes about how it is all about them and unless you agree with them, tough luck.

Meh - most Wisconsinites don't care. Bunch of lazy, fat-ass cheese butts. Where is the HONOR?

I would think that the difference between a simple memorial (which is intended as a lasting gesture by the way)

I'm not sure what a lasting gesture would be.

The gesture was at the time a mixture, first that people were called and went, which as I say is the form of morality itself; and that some families did not get their members back, and it's a nod to them.

Today there's no interest in that war and the memorial changes meaning to, approximately, nothing at all.

Just as words change meaning when there's no use for the original. Lack of interest comes from lack of a use.

Veterans get more from having been called and going itself than from homage for what is an honorable but common virtue.

"Today there's no interest in that war and the memorial changes meaning to, approximately, nothing at all."

This is disconnected from reality.

I'm not sure why you're confused about what a lasting gesture is. A permanent memorial is simply a physical manifestation of the same sentiment that gets you the lasting gesture of national holidays like Independence Day, Veterans Day, or Armed Forces Day to name a few.

I see you chose not to address the fact that a memorial stadium serves more than one purpose. Good call.

When you step back and think about it, is it really plausible to think that the government could get away with abusing its workers today ... when their elected "management" are highly dependent upon public opinion to keep their jobs ... and in the presence of a media salivating to sensationalize any incident?

OTOH, the inherent conflict of interest between elected officials and public-sector unions ... where the former can take the money from others, deliver more to the latter, then get campaign-contribution kickbacks from them while also empowering them to shape policy as an unaccountable bureaucracy (able to shape it to a far greater degree than any crony capitalist can, bad as that can be) ... greatly outweighs the threat of worker abuse.

THIS ... not democracy ... is what the protesters are trying to save ... some intentionally, some unwittingly because they believe their particular version of the Biggest Lie of All: that to get ahead, they must subordinate their own responsibilities to the direction of union leadership.

This is why I think that the public-sector unions need to be busted. The workers have little or no need for union protection, for there are other mechanisms in place to perform that function ... and the inherent conflict of interest presented by (inevitably) politically-active public-sector unions is corrosive to the public interest.

Lincolntf, if by upstate New York you mean 'no further north than Westchester County', well maybe, but that is NOTHING like an upstate accent. Boston maybe. Notice how none of these creeps and bullies actually take the initiative to clean up the memorial! It's always someone else who is responsible, someone else who must act. Now I need to go take a hot shower.

Here to prove my independence from Ms. A.: Clearly she is a liar! 99% of her time in Madison?? She has documented trips out of Madison for the last few years of more than four days a year. A blatant lie, heheheheh.

HT: I have never understood the reasoning about recording being rude or an invasion of privacy. The persons recording can claim you said or did something because they were there to witness it. Shouldn't you be happier if they record it rather than describe it from memory?

I once had a mother of a criminal defendant make a disciplinary complaint about me claiming that: "He told me he knew my son was not guilty." Of course I never said any such thing. Had there been a recording I would not have had to answer the idiotic complaint. What has to be understood is that I think she believed I had said it. Folks will hear what they want to hear, especially when they are upset about a loved one.

Back to my point: if you are speaking in public shouldn't you want your statements recorded so you will not be misquoted?

That being said, I don't blame the police officers. If they say the wrong thing on camera so the statements can be attributed to them they may get in trouble with their superiors.

Interesting concept ie being a conservative victim at a political blog on the internet, especially when said blog, as a rule, leans sharply to the right ...

Interesting concept, but reality is 99% of the time it's you, Ritmo, AL, jeremy, garage hurling insults at us. That's what this blog has become. I'm almost in favor of Althouse turning off comments altogether.

Rudeness expert. I like that. I saw it referred to in the comments of another post and wondered if it was a person who pointed out rudeness. But, no, it's a person who is expert at being rude. I've known plenty of those.

This is why I think that the public-sector unions need to be busted. The workers have little or no need for union protection, for there are other mechanisms in place to perform that function ...

That's actually the traditional democratic view--ala FDR--, and not without merit. Yet even FDR said p-s workers should have organizing power of some sort. .

Ergo, maybe the tough -talking teabaggers of AA should now take on the cop and firefighters P-E unions, judges, and legal bureaucrats--most of whom have fatter pensions, and lot few soccer mommies in the ranks. Let's see ya get in the some cop's grill with yr macho act .

--it's easy to be a tough talking TPster when you can bully around female teachers, nurses and a few nerds--but the TPster's are far too cowardly to use the same tactics with cops and firefighters.

And, as long as we're pretending to be offended by tiny little slights, why did the Breitbart's teabaggers think it was OK to blast "Sweet Home Alabama" from the corner occupied by the statue of civil war hero Hans Christian Hegg?

The police we encounter didn't want to consult with us on camera, though I do get a clear "no" when I ask if it is against the law to photograph the police. Off camera, they are extremely articulate and professional explaining why the police are allowing the protest and occupation of the Capitol to go on the way it has.

I'll bite. Why are the police allowing the occupation of the Capitol to go on the way it has? Or allowing it at all?

Thank you so much for your continued reporting on these events. Additionally, I can't thank you enough for explaining the distinction between being photographed and being recorded responding to questions. I have a job with similar restrictions - it would be a fire-able offense to speak on-camera, although I routinely answer questions from the public.

"Lincoln and others have observed that we are not born with a saddle, and those who claim to be our betters are not born booted and spurred ready to ride."

Lincoln also said, "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

See the difference? You took a quote out of context and applied it to labor. I took a quote about labor and applied it to labor.

Yup, there's a perfect parallel between playing an "oldie" at a conservative rally and punk-ass Union grubs slapping women around at a liberal rally.You guys worry about our music choices, we'll worry about the violent idiots you keep putting on your front lines. Scumbags.

That accent is not from anywhere in New England, not even SW CT, which we don't consider part of us anyway.

I admit that many have responded to Shiloh, et alia with mere insult and challenge without making any substantive points. But some have. And shiloh just hasn't. Nothing beyond "I am too telling the truth and you're assholes." Well, I might be an asshole. But can you at least see why that argument is unlikely to persuade me?

I was born and raised (and have spent 80-ish% of my life) in Worcester, MA where the accent sounds nothing like a Boston accent, despite being only 40 miles away. That certainly sounds Northeast/New England to me. She also sounds exactly like a girl I knew from Kinderhook (sp?) NY.

Anyone here live where that woman's accent is recognizable? I'm wicked curious.

I'm not sure why you're confused about what a lasting gesture is. A permanent memorial is simply a physical manifestation of the same sentiment that gets you the lasting gesture of national holidays like Independence Day, Veterans Day, or Armed Forces Day to name a few.

You say it's sort of like a machine making a periodic gesture, then. It comes around every year. But the gesture goes empty, goes on holiday, after it loses a use, meaning only that mail is not delivered.

Another sort of permanent gesture might be the dictator-hailing-a-cab honorific statues in third world countries, just letting the words resonate.

I see you chose not to address the fact that a memorial stadium serves more than one purpose. Good call.

When is a memorial stadium a memorial? Only once, I'd guess, when they open it for the first time. Then it's a sports stadium.

Look at memorials as they are used in real life, like a lexicographer looks at words. He records the original meaning, and what they mean today.

Not what words ought to mean today - that's the usage nazi's job, not the lexicographer's - but what they do mean.

PS After a while shiloh/PB&J becomes the living embodiment of the one good line from the Mankiewicz take on Cleopatra, "Did someone release you from your nursery so you could come here and annoy the adults?".

Personally, as soon as a comment includes a reference to "libtards" or "teabaggers" I assume it is not worth reading, except for humor value. I am definitely of the right-wing libertarian (Milton Friedman style)side of things. However, I am always ready to listen to what the other side has to say. No matter how right one is, and no matter how wrong the opposition is- sometimes the other guy is right and you are wrong.

I can't understand what pleasure is derived from the constant use of personal attacks. Yeah, I am looking at you, "J". You too, "Fen", "Wisco".

J, it is actually a question of priorities ... for this is about more than pensions; it is about the ability of public-sector unions to collude with our leaders to corrupt the system and add to their coffers.

In that regard, the NEA, UFT, SEIU and AFSCME are the greater threat to the public interest at present, for they engage in far, far higher levels of the political activity that feeds such collusion than do the cops and firefighters ... influence that spreads well beyond WI borders to a far greater degree than the influence of the protective-services unions do, as the latter tend to focus directly on the government they work with, instead of becoming wholly-owned subsidiaries of the Democrat Party.

Also there is a big difference between those whose job means they put their lives -- and future health -- on the line for us. We will treat them with a higher level of respect, and different rules re: retirement will apply to them than for others.

However, we can, and will, reform their pensions where needed ... and we are not afraid to be assertive about it, despite your poor characterization of what that assertion entails. If they can't respect our protests, even when we are assertive, they probably won't last long as cops and firefighters.

I thought "Meade" and "Althouse" were the rudeness experts. I can't believe she so easily gives up the mantle. And, from someone without a Wisconsin accent - now that is rude!! I mean, having piles of stuff near a memorial!!! Outrageous!!

The protesters should apologize and join the Koch brothers in supporting Governor Walker. Then they should pass a law mandating that all signs be aesthetically pleasing to Professor Althouse and hung using art store-bought professional hanging materials. If that doesn't work, perhaps only Wisconsin citizens with photo i.d. should be allowed to protest in our Capitol.

Ann, great job that the two of you are doing. You are an antidote to the lies that are being spread via the MSM.

“What is truth” asked Pilate. It’s a good question. An equally good question “is who is credible and who do we believe?”

In that context, let’s talk about the sources of information from which we attempt to discern the truth. For more than a generation, the sources of information from which we try to discern the truth have been the newspapers and TV networks. These sources have been limited. It is claimed with some credibility that the NY Times set the agenda for the alphabet networks. Can we agree that Liberals were generally satisfied with the media in the “good old days” when the Times view was reflected, like a series of mirrors in the rest of the media? Rush Limbaugh has a riff he uses innumerable times in which he notes a story that gets the same treatment in the NY Times, Washington Post, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, et cetera. It’s funny and it’s true.

But something has changed. It started with Limbaugh but has grown with the advent of his imitators and with FOX News. And it drives Liberals nuts. We can now appreciate the anger that must have shaken the halls of the Kremlin when the leaders of the USSR found that they had lost control of the information available to their citizens. They still had Pravda (Russian for “Truth”) and Izvestia (Russian for “Delivered Messages”) plus Soviet TV and Soviet radio. They spent millions blocking Radio Free Europe and sent dissenting voices to the Gulag. But samizdat and technology overcame the Party media monopoly, truth escaped, and that marked the beginning of the end of the USSR.

In America dissenting voices on the Right are dealt with differently. Lacking a Gulag, the Left deals with reporting from the Right with scorn and ridicule. Quote the NY Times or CNN and your references are treated with respect. Quote FOX and there are a dozen voices that will dismiss your evidence out of hand. And on blogs like this we can be sure that either paid or volunteer disrupters are deployed to try to shout you down. For myself, I just scroll quickly past them once they identify themselves – usually in the first sentence of their screeds.

Keep up the good work. The two of you seem to be more than a match for the thousands of Leftist in Madison. You’re doing a pretty good job of redeeming yourself for allowing yourself to be fooled by Obama.

And a lot of Germans fought the Nazis in WWII. Wouldn't excuse singing "Deutschland Uber Allies" at the memorial in DC, would it?

Surely the stupidest comment on this thread. Are we forbidden to say the word "Alabama" in Wisconsin? Hegg was killed in the Battle of Chickamauga which was on the Tennessee/Georgia border. Are we forbidden to mention those states too? Would playing "Rocky Top" be too offensive or "Rainy Night in Georgia?" Autobahn would be a better comparison.

The intended effect is the same - silence them, drive them from public life, discredit their ideology.

Because such tools are never used by conservatives. Rush Limbaugh, R. Emmett Tyrrell, Bill Buckley - they never ridiculed anyone they disagreed with!

And, until the Lefties can build a Gulag, it's the best they've got.

So you are a historically illiterate moron, too. No surprise. But I guess imagining that you are fighting against the Soviets is better than thinking about your status in real life. Sort of like Walter Mitty, only sadder.

Yeah, because scorn and ridicule are part of the same continuum as the Gulag. It's just a question of the tools at hand. I mean, isn't it just obvious?

I said: "Lacking a Gulag, the Left deals with reporting from the Right with scorn and ridicule. Quote the NY Times or CNN and your references are treated with respect. Quote FOX and there are a dozen voices that will dismiss your evidence out of hand. And on blogs like this we can be sure that either paid or volunteer disrupters are deployed to try to shout you down. For myself, I just scroll quickly past them once they identify themselves – usually in the first sentence of their screeds."

And then there are attempts to remove context ... even when the full quote is readily available. That is such a futile effort. The writers for the NY Times have an easier time because they get an opportunity to paraphrase and the alphabet networks can do it with proper editing of video. You, on the other hand, as stuck trying to mischaracterize what I said, while everyone can read what I wrote. Not very smart.

And then there are attempts to remove context ... even when the full quote is readily available.

Your full quote didn't add any context, and as you said, it was available for anyone to see. In any case, your comment stood for itself and it was stupid. Perhaps you and Edutcher can get a time-share together or something. Sort of a summer rental for historically illiterate dimwits.

I'm more interested in her concept of democracy than of rudeness. Democracy is simply mob rule which is something this lady seems to be very comfortable with. What made us great (when it was still relevant) was our Constitution. Now that we have lost it to the post-modern crowd we are left with nothing but democracy and it is a damn poor substitute for the constitutional republic that enshrined the rights and liberties that had made us so prosperous in thought and possession for so long.

Even so, the democracy she is thinking of is not one of votes and the will of the people... her side has already lost that. The democracy she imagines is one of who can intimidate the most and who is willing to go the farthest to get what they want... even if what they want defies all the laws of mathematics and economics... or even just plain good sense.

This is the concept of democracy that animates Cloward, Piven, Obaam, Trumka and most of the protesters across the middle east and europe. I had struggled to understand why there were so many signs mentioning Egypt or Libya when there is no real parallel at all and I think it comes down to this; the left equates democracy with deciding which mob will rule the streets and divide the assets.

It is the democracy of the jackals and not of the sheep. But alas for them the sheep have grown tired of the shearing.

The intended effect is the same - silence them, drive them from public life, discredit their ideology.

Because such tools are never used by conservatives. Rush Limbaugh, R. Emmett Tyrrell, Bill Buckley - they never ridiculed anyone they disagreed with!

The subject was not ridicule - the subject was destroying people. No rebuttal, I see.

And, until the Lefties can build a Gulag, it's the best they've got.

So you are a historically illiterate moron, too. No surprise. But I guess imagining that you are fighting against the Soviets is better than thinking about your status in real life. Sort of like Walter Mitty, only sadder.

I couldn't give a crap about whether she was bused in or moved there or was born there or whatever, I just know I've heard that accent before. The fact that she looks like a cross between Sam Waterston and Sue Furt has no bearing on my analysis of her classlessness.

My Daddy would spank my behind off of the stratosphere if I defaced any memorial, public place or even our own home. Folks that did this defacing need one of my Daddy's therapies to realign their attitudes.

Reason magazine regularly reports/comments on police and videotaping. Here's a quick search from their Hit and Run Website. This goes beyond "saying the wrong thing on camera". Its disturbing and it was disturbing to watch in this snippet.

Actually, the veterans memorial is not for "people who died in a war." According to the plaque mounted on it, the memorial is for "Wisconsin veterans who served the cause of freedom so valiantly and unselfishly during times of armed conflict and times of peace."

But it suits the professor's "neutral" purpose better to wave the bloody shirt.

Being so absorbed in the cause of our nation's veterans, perhaps the meadhouse would care to review and fix up the often deplorable condition of Wisconsin's other veterans' memorials? List with condition as of 2005 here:

And if you think only liberals engage in the politics of personal destruction, you are as politically naive as you are historically illiterate, Edutcher. As the old saying goes, politics ain't beanbag.

I thought "Meade" and "Althouse" were the rudeness experts. I can't believe she so easily gives up the mantle. And, from someone without a Wisconsin accent - now that is rude!! I mean, having piles of stuff near a memorial!!! Outrageous!!

The protesters should apologize and join the Koch brothers in supporting Governor Walker. Then they should pass a law mandating that all signs be aesthetically pleasing to Professor Althouse and hung using art store-bought professional hanging materials. If that doesn't work, perhaps only Wisconsin citizens with photo i.d. should be allowed to protest in our Capitol.~~~~~

Just the right amount of snark! ;)

>

I'm out of here unless Althouse does something about these obnoxious trolls.

Ridicule isn't torture. But there is an important difference, not just emotionally, but with real consequences, of ridicule by the dominant culture versus ridicule by random players in the environment.

In my field, social work, people occasionally lose their jobs because of their politics (not that it is put that way), and more frequently, will not be hired. Advancement by conservatives is negligible. So the ridicule of the dominant culture is a not a sticks-and-stones issue, as somefeller is attempting to portray. In general, more liberal commenters entering a conservative site's threads find the situation of not having significant numerical dominance so threatening that they quickly accuse everyone else of being a unified mass of opposition and become unable to hear even dramatic differences clearly. It is all very tribal, especially with Arts & Humanities liberals. If you are not emphatically in their tribe, you are perceived as being part of some vast dangerous horde outside of it.

It is all very tribal, especially with Arts & Humanities liberals. If you are not emphatically in their tribe, you are perceived as being part of some vast dangerous horde outside of it.

I was not going to post again today, but your comment brought me back! Yes such is the fanatical level for the leftists that if you are not 100% with them, you are their enemy. Their world is strictly binary.

Actually AVI I prefer a political blog dominated by the opposition as it were. Especially a site like AA where most conservatives are self-righteous, especially in their disingenuous sarcasm.

btw, nice of AVI to more or less admit AA is a (((conservative))) site.

And the truth shall set you free ...

The 1st political forum I frequented after the 2006 election most of the regular conservatives left and after the 2008 election, they all left ~ go figure.

Liberals as a rule, never leave, unless they get totally bored by the continual conservative whining ie Alex.

Or if it's a totally conservative site, liberals may be banned and at sites like redstate/freeperville/malkin I hear liberals are banned instantaneously. And if you're a Rep/con at these sites and say something bad about ms. palin you may also be banned.

btw, HP is equal parts libs/cons shouting at each other, and only 5% of HP has to do w/politics anyways.

Yes, her comment is indeed a non sequitur: defending your rights is not the same as "saving democracy" - a dictator or military junta could (in theory) allow unions with as many rights as any union in Europe. Besides, I'd say the whole "saving democracy" project is about a decade late at this point, unless the "saving" involves taxidermy.

AA hasn't been keeping up - obviously, civility is optional until or unless someone starts shooting the protesters through the head ... & even then, it only needs to apply for a week or so.

Ann Althouse, did you offer to help find a safe place to store the protesters belongings? Have YOU ever lifted a finger to struggle for democracy? Perhaps you should do something useful before you are so quick to criticize those who are.