​Fred C. Woudhuizen is an independent Dutch scholar who has produced a number of obscure publications making a series of controversial claims to have deciphered hitherto unreadable texts to reveal surprising confirmation of Greek mythological traditions. He argued, for example, that the Phaistos Disc was in fact a letter written by the Luwians to Nestor, the king of Pylos in the Odyssey. In another, he argued that the otherwise indecipherable Etruscan language is in fact a patois of colonial Luwian. The Luwians, for what it’s worth, are his major interest, and his arguments, as one published review of his scholarship put it, are “alas, not very convincing.”

​A regular reader called my attention to a bizarre passage in his otherwise quite dull effort at the decipherment of Cretan hieroglyphics, another unreadable ancient tongue which preceded the more famous Linear A by a century and coexisted with that script throughout the Minoan period. In 2016, Woudhuizen not only claimed to read Cretan hieroglyphics but also to have found Atlantis in them!

His argument is complex, and originates with his identification—different from other scholars’ views—of 85 Cretan hieroglyphs with Luwian counterparts, 22 with Egyptian ones, and 23 with Linear A characters. Having made these connections, he then proposes to read the Cretan hieroglyphs in light of their alleged linguistic cousins, producing a series of syllables that he interprets and translates as an Indo-European tongue, likely closely related to Luwian. To the best of my knowledge, his view of the subject is shared only by some others who hold the Luwians in an exalted position not generally found in mainstream scholarship. The argument, however, is not convincing since anyone who speaks more than one language can attest to the vast differences that even closely related words can take on in different cultures, contexts, and languages.

But, for what it is worth, here is his argument for Atlantis via Cretan hieroglyphics. It begins with his decipherment of a supposed hieroglyphic “formula” as the word ta-ru-nu, based on alleged Luwian parallels, which he proceeds to transform through some assumptions and guesswork that allow him to change the sounds to better suit his mood. Basically, he gives himself permission to invert the order of sounds and swap consonants until the right reading comes out the other end:

Being puzzled in the beginning, a solution seemed to present itself when I realized that according to Cretan writing devices the r-series is used to express the consonants [r] and [l] at the same time, whereas according to Luwian hieroglyphic scribal traditions syllables of CV type are equally applied to render VC sounds. In this manner, then, we may well arrive at the reading Atlunu, which resembles the mythical Atlantis from our literary sources too much to be dismissed as accidental! Considering the distribution of the findspots of the total amount of 116 seals with profane formulas—in so far as this is reported—, which particularly affects the northern zone of Crete between Knossos in the west and Kato Zakro in the east, but, since the discovery of the seal from Vrysinas near Rethymnon—so that the find from Kythera, # 267, can no longer be dismissed as an importation—may now reasonably be argued to have included the coastal zone of northern Crete in its entirety (see Fig. 12), our geographic name Atlunu is most likely to have a bearing on this particular region.

​He then identifies this region as that of Santorini and connects the Atlunu reading to the eruption of the Santorini/Thera volcano around 1600 BCE.

We “may well” read the text as Atlunu, or we may not. Since it is an assumption at the very beginning that the symbols are even Luwian, adding another layer of assumption about their meaning across cultures, and then a third layer of assumption about the permissibility of swapping sounds according to parallels from another culture’s scribal conventions is simply too much to give anything approaching plausibility to this castle in the clouds.

Even if we did, what exactly does it prove? Atlantis is a genitive, a possessive form meaning “of Atlas.” The name of Plato’s island was Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος, “the island of Atlas.” This Atlas, according to Plato, was the son of Poseidon, but the same word was used to describe the possessions of the progeny of the Titan Atlas, including the island of Ogygia. While scholars are divided whether the name Atlas is of Proto-Indo-European or Pre-Greek origin, either way, it was almost certainly in existence in the Bronze Age and therefore hardly a shock even if by some chance its genitive form appeared in a Cretan inscription.

The rest of his reconstruction is likely to be irrelevant. He argues that because signet rings with the same pattern were found in Akrotiri, the city buried in the Thera eruption, and at Hagia Triada and Sklavokambos on Crete, then we can conclude that Atlunu was a name current both on Crete and Santorini and therefore may have something to do with the geography of Minoan Crete, thus confirming the popular hypothesis on the origin of Atlantis. None of that follows logically from the proposition, and there is neither evidence that Atlunu is the correct reading or what if may have referred to.

With Fred C. Woudhuizen and Atlantis as a subject, we are sure that the "sea peoples" expert, T Franke, will visit and provide us with his historical-critical wisdom.

"Woudhuizen not only claimed to read Cretan hieroglyphics but also to have found Atlantis in them!"

What we need is another Rosetta Stone, a Cretin one, Herr Franke, a man of many languages, and perhaps he also reads Cretan hieroglyphics.

Reply

Dan

10/27/2018 08:35:47 pm

Hey, J!

All of us here have a moniker

If you were to choose some handle?

What would it be?

Just "J, Colavito"?

Entirely sufficient.

But...

.,,what's your super-hero name?

Love you,

Dan

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Eirik Sinclair

10/29/2018 06:19:42 am

Did you know that super heroes are based on the race of people who were the original inhabitants of Peru? Men over 300 pounds were shipped to the Americas by Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus in 133 BC, then they mixed with skinny people to create super men and wonder women. It's called the Religion of Thor. It started with Alexander the Great in 323 BC, and ended in 791 AD at the Battle for Uppsala Sound in Sweden.

Linear A script & Linear B script from Crete were taken in 754 BC (Roman Villa) and 250 BC (Carthage) respectively. They were the Library of Alexandria divided so no one entity would have all the knowledge. You read excerpts of the scripts in the logic puzzles written into mythological stories. You read the adaptations of the scripts in movies and novels.

Eirik Sinclair

10/29/2018 06:29:33 am

The Andes mountains produced a lot of Andersons.

Eirik Sinclair

10/29/2018 06:07:23 am

Mr. Colavito, can you get your blog moved to aol.com or another home page to get more people involved? Let's get this party started!

Atlantis a.k.a. Egypt was moved to Carthage when Greece moved to Rome. Tartarus a.k.a. pre-Egypt was moved to Mesoamerica in 1100 BC. With each Order of Knights, there was a new mesoamerican colony. i.e. Mayans, Incans, Aztecs...

Scandinavia was created in the Americas... the original native indigenous peoples who discovered the continents between 1300-1200 BC. The fountain of youth... from Peruvian mountain tops, to Cuba & Bimini Island, then back to Europe.

1. America was discovered between 1300-1200 BC by Phoenicians, the Greenland Sagas commenced in 1200 BC.
2. Tartarus (Pre-Egypt) was moved to America in 1100 BC. A formation of Knights were created to police America.
3. The Gaul Knights were defeated in 754 BC giving rise to the Roman Republic & Empire that defeated Carthage in Punic Wars.
4. Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus, the Roman Zeus from Carthage, shipped all men over 300 pounds to America in 133 BC.
5. Odin's Cobblestone Court was brought to America at the turn of the century. Mecca memorialized his departure as Allah.
6. The Kingdom of Naples was sent to Arcadia (Florida) in 79 AD when Mt. Vesuvius erupted & covered Herculaneum with ash.
7. Teotihuacan (The Religion of Thor) operated until 791 AD when it was defeated at the Battle for Uppsala Sound in Sweden.
8. A Skraelingar and Stave uprising took out every Viking ship as they descended from Vineland Station to Roanoke Island
9. Lief Ericsson's ship was the only one to survive, he entered America through theTemplar portal in Hudson Bay Canada
10. Retrieving all the men from the Midgaard Serpant (Mississippi River) the Nordic bloodline was preserved in 985 AD.
11. The Alamo Incursion occurred in 1002 AD, and the Indians of South America swarmed into North America.
12. A Federated States of Amerigan began in 1040 AD, the Vikings were crushed in 1066 AD by the Norman Conquest.
13. Mounds Park Minnesota is the site for which the Battle of Hastings took place.
14. The St. Clare Expeditions returned the Europeans to America in 1255 AD.
15. The men of the Sinclair Expeditions were found dead in 1362 AD.
16. In 1402 AD, Henry Sinclair was on his deathbed. He commissioned his son to return to America.
17. The Kensington Runestone was the centerpiece of a circular memorial erected at the lines intersecting the 2 Templar portals.
18. As America was being colonized, the Runestone was buried to avoid its discovery and destruction.
19. A tree was planted on its location when the Sinclair family returned to its homeland.
20. It was intentionally dug up to show evidence of America's earliest beginnings.

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Hal

10/29/2018 02:15:40 pm

Brilliant!!!

Joe Scales

10/30/2018 09:50:13 am

Dumb, meet Dumber.
Dumber, Dumb.

Americancool"Disco"dan

10/27/2018 11:44:44 am

It's sounds like he's pulling a Sitchin but with languages no one can read so his work is difficult to check. This takes Lilly's "If you want to be an expert, invent the territory" to a new level.

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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/28/2018 05:51:15 am

I still think he's pulling a Sitchin, but...

http://www.woudhuizen.nl/fred/bibliografie.html

He publishes quite a bit and that either says something about him or something about gatekeepers of the field. Or both. "It's all here in my copious notes!"

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Machala

10/27/2018 01:24:38 pm

My recollections of Luwian scholarship and linguistic interpretation centered around Eberhard Zangger theories about the Luwain and their link as the "Sea Peoples". His ideas were largely mirrored by James Mellaarts' work and translations of the “Beyköy Texts”.
When doing a little research to refresh my memeory on the subject, I came across some very surprising information on https://luwianstudies.org.
The vaunted translation of James Mellaart that were touted by Zangger, have been proven fraudulent.

Here's a recent timeline of some of the interesting and I hope relevant events......

November 2017: The board of the Luwian Studies Foundation decides to support the investigation and publication of the documents from the estate of James Mellaart.

December 2017: An online version of the publication of the Luwian hieroglyphic inscriptions appears in TALANTA – Proceedings of the Dutch Archaeological and Historic Society.

7 February 2018: An international interdisciplinary team of scientists meets in Zurich to discuss an approach to investigating and publishing the documents from James Mellaart’s estate. Initially, however, it is decided to search for further evidence as to whether the documents are real or not.

24 February 2018: Alan Mellaart {James Mellaart's son} and Eberhard Zangger meet again in James Mellaart’s former apartment in London. James Mellaart’s documents occupy two rooms of the apartment and two garages. After four days of intensively screening the estate, Zangger finds a dossier that unequivocally proves how James Mellaart himself constructed the English translations of the alleged cuneiform documents (“Beyköy Texts”). Zangger has already come across sketches of alleged murals from Çatalhöyük that were carved on schist slates.

1 March 2018: Luwian Studies posts a media release on its website announcing that Mellaart fabricated alleged historical documents, the recently “discovered” murals from Çatalhöyük and the supposed cuneiform “Beyköy Texts”. These items and Zangger’s theses on the Luwian culture in West Asia Minor and the Sea People’s invasions are not related, having originated completely independently of each other.

Thanks. I'd forgotten Jason's coverage of this.
I guess I was more focused on what skullduggery Dr. Demento (er...Dr.Edson Vivanco ) and Bananas Foester were up to in the Andes than Zangger being his usual Trojan horse's ass.

E.P. Grondine

10/28/2018 05:12:42 pm

Hello Machala -

If I remember correctly, the inscription was in Luwian hieroglyphic, not in cuneiform. About the only way to determine if the inscription was created by Mellaart or not is going to be to check out the mosque in which it was claimed to be incorporated.

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Kal

10/27/2018 05:20:40 pm

He might as well read tea leaves and descide he saw a letter A in there somewhere, for all the sense such a text would make. Clearly he can invent his own rules also. Nobody can dispute it because he made it up, unless you figure, he made it up. Not that he'll gain any fame from doing so. Also 'Lun' is in there, which sounds like loon. So there you go.

I have known this idea of Woudhuizen about Atlantis for years (at least since 2008, but don't ask me from which publication of Woudhuizen), but I never have taken it very seriously. I was not aware, too, that Woudhuizen put so much emphasis on it. Maybe he only expressed it as a mere guess in the publication I know, and later put more emphasis on it? Anyway it is a bad idea.

"Atlantis" is not a name from a foreign language (and not a name at all!) but a Greek special grammatical form of the name "Atlas", called patronymikon (not genitive), which roughly has the function of a genitive (but not exactly, see my analysis of the meaning of this special usage of a patronymikon in my book "Kritische Geschichte ..." on p. 77-79).

Woudhuizen is nevertheless not a crazy horse but a scholar who has something to say which is worth reading. Which does not mean that you always want to follow him.

The interchangeability of the so-called liquida /r/ and /l/ is common in many languages. We know this from ancient Egyptian texts, too. Ancient Egyptian developed over many centuries, and was spoken in various dialects. Of course, such an interchangeable liquidum is not a proof for anything, it only opens possibilities without proof.

Just the same argument of the interchangeable liquida had been put forward by Professor Wolfgang Schenkel who wrote an article in 1979 that "Atlantis" allegedly means "name-less (island)" in the ancient Egyptian language. Several scholars have used this argument since then to mock Atlantis searchers, e.g. John Gwyn Griffiths or Reinhold Bichler. But this argument is wrong in the same way as Woudhuizen's.

Good question. It is the same question with which I struggled for years. Almost all grammars only offer the "son/daughter of ..." translation as an explanation. But the island of Atlantis is clearly not the daughter of Atlas. Therefore, I once considered the idea wrong that it is a patronymikon.

But is it one. Inevitably.

The usually offered translation is clearly not hitting the point of a patronymikon. This is a valid translation only in case of father-son or father-daughter relations. A patronymikon has a deeper basic meaning than that which only in certain cases plays out to the "son of ..." translation. In other cases not.

Just think only of "Atlantis thalassa" in Herodotus. Also here, the sea is not (!) the daughter of Atlas.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/28/2018 09:51:30 am

In English "Son of Atlas Island" means "Island Named 'Son of Atlantis' ". Similarly with "Atlantis Thelassa" meaning "Sea Named Son of Atlantis".

Of course "Island of Atlas" or "Sea of Atlas" make equally much sense. Is it possible that when given a choice between a patronym and a genitive you hear hooves and think zebras rather than horses?

In cases where the patronym and the genitive (yes I know there are multiple types of Greek patronyms) are spelled the same what makes you lean one way rather than the other?

An island named "son of Atlas"?! Weird consideration. Maybe this works on the level of the English language, but this is surely not what the Greek phrase wants to say.

And maybe you should repeat your Greek grammar lessons. The forms of patronymikon (Atlantis) and genetive (Atlantos) are not the same in our case. Therefore no choice. The hooves belong to Zebras, without any doubt.

(And it is "thalassa" in Herodotus, not "thelassa")

E.P. Grondine

10/28/2018 05:15:07 pm

It appears you're dealing with a locative in nthos

V

10/28/2018 10:16:47 pm

"But the island of Atlantis is clearly not the daughter of Atlas." I wouldn't be so sure, in Greek mythology. Thalassa, after all, was not only the sea but the primeval spirit embodying the sea. With nature spirits in so many things and places, "This island is the physical embodiment of the spirit of a Daughter of Atlas" would not be remotely out of place.

Yes, the genius in each thing. Good point, and legitimate approach, but it does not play out in our cases.

Greek mythology has no place for the sea being daughter of Atlas, or an island being daughter of Atlas. Especially the sea is completely occupied by totally different mythological ancestries, and titan Atlas is nowhere called father of any sea, and especially the island of Atlantis and its king Atlas are presented as completely opposed to any mythical narrative.

But I like your approach. It is worth discussing it.

Eirik Sinclair

10/29/2018 07:57:39 am

Atlas island was not an island. It was in the Sahara Desert.

Reims

10/28/2018 12:31:47 pm

Did you want to make a point regarding the liquids? That seems like a lost thread.

Where is the 'nameless' in Atlantis? A-Tlantis? As far as I know 'name' is not 'tlantis'/'tlas', but 'onoma'. Ah nevermind, I see in fact this would be the case in Egyptian. Sadly Atlas it's most definitely not related to that but to the Berber languages of that period. "The terms for 'mountain' in some Berber languages are adrar and adras, which are believed to be cognates of the toponym Atlas." The Egyptians had zero interest about what lied to the west of them and Atlas was connected with north western Africa way before Plato.

My point was only, that the interchangeability of the liquida is basically not a wrong idea, although not sufficient, and that such insufficient arguments are used by Atlantis skeptics, too.

You are right that Schenkel's argument, taken over by certain Atlantis skeptics, works on the level of the Egyptian language.

I disagree that the Greek Atlas (here I talk of the mythological titan) is connected with the Berber language. The Greeks had no knowledge of NW Africa when they formed their mythology. Whether the non-mythological Atlas, king of Atlantis, which was allegedly taken over from Egypt by Solon, has something to do with the Berbers, is questionable, although we cannot exclude it right from the start of research.

I disagree that the Egyptians were not interested about what lied to the west of them. They repeatedly had wars with Libyans. Yet I agree that this knowledge did not go very far. Herodotus' main source about Libya were not the Egyptians, but Hecataeus (says Lloyd).

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/28/2018 09:54:48 am

Should read:

In English "Son of Atlas Island" means "Island Named 'Son of Atlas' ". Similarly with "Atlantis Thelassa" meaning "Sea Named Son of Atlas".

Of course "Island of Atlas" or "Sea of Atlas" make equally much sense. Is it possible that when given a choice between a patronym and a genitive you hear hooves and think zebras rather than horses?

In cases where the patronym and the genitive (yes I know there are multiple types of Greek patronyms) are spelled the same what makes you lean one way rather than the other?

Atlantis is from Atlas plus the suffix -is which is used for forming feminine nouns or feminine adjectival forms.
Atlantos is the genitive (masculine) form of Atlas whereas Atlantis is the feminine form used to match the feminine noun nesos.
There's nothing about sons or daughters or whatever, just plain grammar.

Cit.: "Atlantos is the genitive (masculine) form of Atlas whereas Atlantis is the feminine form used to match the feminine noun nesos."

If you wanted to say that "Atlantis" is a feminine form of the genitive, then you are wrong. The genitive's gender is not oriented at the possessed but at the possessor, i.e. at "Atlas", and not at "nesos".

Reims

10/28/2018 02:42:12 pm

Dear T. Franke,
Thank you for taking the time to reply but I'm afraid you should stop posting about classical languages. It is obvious you have no knowledge of the topic.
Adjectives or nouns in the genitive case always 'agree' (this is the term) with the number and gender of the noun they determine (i.e., nesos, a feminine noun requires the feminine form of Atlas).
Please take any basic Ancient Greek or Latin grammar textbook and see for yourself.

@Reims:
Adjectives do to their nouns, but nouns in the genitive to other nouns?! ROTFL. You shouldn't try again, Reims.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/28/2018 03:08:04 pm

Gonna have to ask you to hold it right there, cowboy, You say "adjectives or nouns". I don't remember it working that way with nouns. The better argument is still that "Atlantis island" means "Island [named] Son of Atlas", i.e. noun in opposition.

@ the hun: "An island named "son of Atlas"?! Weird consideration." Do you have a similar issue with Anderson Island?

Reims

10/28/2018 05:23:38 pm

Good thing you don't teach Classical Languages. American society would be even worse than it already is. Yes, you arrogant dimwits, even nouns in the genitive agree with the noun they determine, that's how Indo-European grammar works. The fact that English lost this doesn't mean that it wasn't (and it still is) the way it works for the majority of Indo-European languages, including Greek and Latin.

As a secondary point of contestation are you 'actually named son of Atlas'-internet-know-it-alls seriously think that for thousands of years people studying not Atlantis but the Greek language, be them Greeks, Romans, Medieval/Renaissance/Early Modern/Modern/etc scholars missed this? The weight of the evidence is on you and NO grammatical construction except your ancient-aliens type of fantasy nonsense could come up with this sh*t, no better than the elucubrations exposed in the blog article.

@Reims:
You are wrong and no insults will help you to cover this up. By the way, I made my exam on Ancient Greek at a German Gymnasium with "very good" when the World-Wide Web didn't exist. Where did you make your exam? At Wikipedia?!

@American....:
Again, not worth an answer. As with your Anderson island and many other plunder you commited in this discussion.

AmericanAlexandroRey

10/30/2018 05:36:09 am

Still high school. Was there buggery? Sorry Mister Master Race, I didn't mean to start a fight in the middle of your Nazi Party. As our revered teacher Spicoli once said "Those guys are fags!"

Frank

10/28/2018 03:31:06 pm

From a standpoint of a non-academic's view, it behooves all you "lingo" experts that it is useless to conjecture any foundation on the structure and grammar of any of the languages being discussed. Why? Because none of them are Atlantean.

Therefore unless we have in our hands a bonafide and certified sufficient sample of Atlantean writing, alongside with one of the languages that we really know well, such as we have with the Rosetta stone, and with which it can be used to attempt a correct decoding and understanding of Atlantean, it is folly to carry on such petty argumentation on the meaning and grammatical structure of words such as Atlas, and Atlantis. Not to mention that it is total folly to ponder on it for years, and struggle with it, as some claim here.

Plato clearly staged out that the Egyptian priests had, originally, translated all the Atlantean names into Egyptian, and Solon, in turn, recovered the meaning from the Egyptian tongue, to then Hellenize them. And therefore come the words Atlas and Atlantis, and all the rest. But, from where and whom did the Egyptians learn Atlantean? All these people like Woudhuizen need to dig up Egyptian soil and look for the Egyptian/Atlantean "Rosetta stone."

"Yet, before proceeding further in the narrative, I ought to warn you, that you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners (Atlanteans). I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language."

The Atlantis story is "airborne" enough on its own. And therefore Jason's reasoning is correct on his view, as I believe he is hinting at the need of a "Rosetta stone" so as to come down from the clouds, and build their castles on solid ground.

We “may well” read the text as Atlunu, or we may not. Since it is an assumption at the very beginning that the symbols are even Luwian, adding another layer of assumption about their meaning across cultures, and then a third layer of assumption about the permissibility of swapping sounds according to parallels from another culture’s scribal conventions is simply too much to give anything approaching plausibility to this castle in the clouds.

Reply

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/28/2018 03:43:03 pm

"Therefore unless we have in our hands a bonafide and certified sufficient sample of Atlantean writing, alongside with one of the languages that we really know well, such as we have with the Rosetta stone, and with which it can be used to attempt a correct decoding and understanding of Atlantean, it is folly to carry on such petty argumentation on the meaning and grammatical structure of words such as Atlas, and Atlantis. Not to mention that it is total folly to ponder on it for years, and struggle with it, as some claim here."

WHO is making that claim???

I don't know about you but I still remember my high school Martian pretty well.

"a third layer of assumption about the permissibility of swapping sounds according to parallels from another culture’s scribal conventions is simply too much"

Sounds like you're not familiar with Engrish.

"it is folly to carry on such petty argumentation on the meaning and grammatical structure of words such as Atlas, and Atlantis."

You fucking started it.

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Frank

10/28/2018 04:05:30 pm

WHO is making that claim??? Herr Franke.

"a third layer of assumption about the permissibility of swapping sounds according to parallels from another culture’s scribal conventions is simply too much"

"Sounds like you're not familiar with Engrish." Take it up with Jason, as it may be his "Eglish", since this site is his church, and this is just another of his sermons from the pulpit.

"You fucking started it." No! Take it up with the one that started. I was only first to post on this, and if you are familiar with "Engrish", you will note that I only prophesied the coming of a "languages" specialist, the "Cretin," Herr Franke, on this thread. And, am I not a true prophet?

To be precise, it is FRANK who makes the claim that Franke made this claim. ROTFL.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan on Son of Atlas Island

10/28/2018 04:56:51 pm

"you will note that I only prophesied the coming of a "languages" specialist, the "Cretin," Herr Franke, on this thread. And, am I not a true prophet?"

I was just rereading this thread from the top down and my thought was to acknowledge your prescience (or in the dated spelling "prisceinci"). Although, it's not much of a stretch when Jason sets off the Atlantis alarm.

T. Franke wrote: "Not to mention that it is total folly to ponder on it for years, and struggle with it, as some claim here."

and

"To be precise, it is FRANK who makes the claim that Franke made this claim."

It sounds like it is you, Franke, who made the claim. Specifically, the claim of "as some claim here." WHO MADE THIS CLAIM? YOU??

Now you're saying that Woodhousen wasted decades? YOU wrote: "Woudhuizen is nevertheless not a crazy horse but a scholar who has something to say which is worth reading."

@Frank: Just so we are clear, I am well aware of the distinction between your august self and Herr Franke. It seems like you think I have confused you two. Never gonna happen.

This looks to me like another imaginary Linear A reading. They are quite common.

I have said this before, but I'll repeat myself again here: I think that it is likely that Plato's tale of Atlantis may preserve some memory of an Atlantic Ocean impact mega-tsunami which occurred around 1,000 BC, and which was remembered by the Maya as the destruction of the wooden people.

Just to make this clear, Plato was writing a moral fable; it is the components he used to do it that are interesting.

I hope that someday Jason will complete a translation of Al Idrisi, who gave us some description of Morocco during his time
(It would be nice to locate and excavate the House of Life.)

Reply

Americancw"Disco"Dan

10/28/2018 08:25:14 pm

Maya as the destruction of the wooden people."

Who among us was not expecting this from our resident fake Injun? He must be slipping, he forgot to mention fast neutrons and the many sources that were destroyed in the flash flood without any date.

"I have said this before, but I'll repeat myself again here" is kind of Chief's motto. Let it be his epitaph.

Since you brought it up, it appears that photons are elevated to gamma rays energy levels in large hypervelocity impacts, which leads to the production of fast neutrons, as seen in 14C production and 10Be when available.

I am 1/8 Shawnee by descent. Just enough for diabetes and a stroke, but not enough for a casino. I carry my DNA test results with me, and provide them on demand.

Speaking of casinos, the Dennings and Barnes will never get casino rights in Maryland, and hopefully also here in Ohio. We'll see how it goes.

Americancool"Disco"Dan

10/29/2018 12:18:07 pm

Because only Injuns git the beedees and strokes. Some fake Injun science reporter you are! Maybe you should eat some human pituitary glands and let your stomach acids chew them up. The real world analogy would be "suicide by cop" (not saying you shouldn't do that) but here you'll just be mocked for all eternity because you're a fake on many levels.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan fake Injun hunter

10/30/2018 08:13:20 am

"I carry my DNA test results with me, and provide them on demand."

ACCORDING TO YOU bitch, carrying an important book with you is what got it lost in an imaginary flash flood. Anyway, DNA tests don't prove race. You are still and will always be, a fake Injun.

You may consider your DNA test results demanded. My communing with the tobacco spirits says you will not provide them, whitey. Fake Injun.

When discussing Atlantis with Herr Franke, proficiency with English is out of the question, as it is "Seculean" grammar we must be good with. And Franke is just another Giufa`, Seculean speaking. Or in plain "Engrish," "Cretin" = Giufa` = the "Village fool" = Herr Franke = the Historical-critical Approach in a town full of Atlantis foolish approaches = "The" fool of fools in the Atlantologists' community.

10/28/2018 04:20:00 pm Franke posted

To be precise, it is FRANK who makes the claim that Franke made this claim. ROTFL.

10/28/2018 07:59:06 am Franke posted

@American.....:

Good question. It is the same question with which I STRUGGLED FOR YEARS. Almost all grammars only offer the "son/daughter of ..." translation as an explanation. But the island of Atlantis is clearly not the daughter of Atlas. Therefore, I once considered the idea wrong that it is a patronymikon.....

T Franke must be arguing in jest, with all this grammatical jargon, because he does not disclose that he advocates a totally different aspect of what he equates the name of Atlas to, and which is this. "Italos = Atlas" This is really what T Franke has been struggling with for years; he wants to sell Sicily as Atlantis. And when he is proved wrong, he finds a way around it. Although he "facetiously" admits his error, he finds other excuses for reintroducing his "Italos = Atlas" as a possibility rather than positive proof, as initially argued.

From his "lips" we have this.

The argumentation on "Italos = Atlas" presented on the Atlantis Conference 2008, cf. Franke (2008), is on the right track but nevertheless partially wrong. So the mistakes have to be pointed out. A revised approach is presented on the basis of deeper studies of Egyptian phonetization, vocalization and transcription into Greek. The balance of possibility and uncertainty of the revised approach is discussed and compared to Wolfgang Schenkel's well-known statement on Atlantis = "at-lant=s" = "nameless (scil. island)"......

By this it is clear that the idea "Italos = Atlas" has no substantial basis any more in the explanations from 2008. But by dipping deeper into the science of phonetization, vocalization and transcription of the Egyptian language by books, papers and some frustrating but also enlightening discussions with experts, two other ways opened up to give explanations to support "Italos = Atlas". As in 2008 the intention is not and cannot be to provide a proof of this equation, but to show its general possibility.

So let us start again. As already demonstrated in 2008, the original Siculean word for "Italos" is unknown. We have to substitute it by the equivalent word in the closely related Italian languages, i.e. "vitulus" in Latin, "vitlu"/"uitlu" in Umbrian, respectivly "viteliu" in Oscan language; cf. e.g. Buck (1904). The central question is the change of /i/ into /a/ whereas the consonants provide much less difficulties.

Reply

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/29/2018 10:24:52 am

What does Maltese teach us?

Consonants are masculine and vowels are feminine. On this there can be no debate.

Reply

E.P. Grondine

10/29/2018 10:54:00 am

@Frank -

After several hundred years of this, it appears that trying to extract anything from Plato's moral fable is useless.

As you know, the collapse of the international order ca 1200 BCE is a mystery, with many different hypothesis being put forth. May I suggest further excavation, in an effort to recover more inscriptions? Or at least cultural sequences?

Given the Italian hypothesis you set out here, why was an Atlantis cycle not prominent among the Etruscans? I have never seen any of it there in their art. If you know of any representations, do tell.

Since there are already excavations in Spain, I think work at bronze age sites in Morocco would be interesting.

Ah yes - Tuscany, Crete, the SW coast of Turkey...beats the hell out of Ohio.

@EP Grondine:
Sssst! The Etruscans came to resp. evolved in Italy much later than 1200 BC.

E.P. Grondine

10/30/2018 11:36:52 am

@Franke -

"Sssst! The Etruscans came to resp. evolved in Italy much later than 1200 BC."

My current working hypothesis is that a PIE speaking group lived in Italy, and were a part of the larger sea trading community, and that there was a later migration from Turkey to form the Etruscans.

Thus the question of Etruscan origins is not indigenous OR migrants, but both indigenous AND migrants.

What I do see in Etruscan art is an emphasis on certain obscure parts of the oral cycle underlying the Iliad and Homer, but nothing about Atlantis.

As I set out in "Man and Impact in the Americas", I think that Plato's moral fable does in some way retain a memory of an Atlantic Ocean impact mega-tsunami, an event now showing up in geological data and studies.

Plato's confused memories of the Lycian Trade Federation ("Minoans") clearly show his limits. (Jason's work on Al Idrisi is very interesting.)

Plato's date reflects either confusion of the Holocene Start Impact Events with the impact tsunami event, or are a scribal error, or a distancing mechanism for his fable.

Before modern readings of contemporary texts, the Bible, Plato, and Homer were pretty much the only materials available, and our current popular views reflect that bias.

As a writer's device, we have to admit that Plato came up with a winner.

Cit.: "Plato's date reflects either confusion of the Holocene Start Impact Events with the impact tsunami event, or are a scribal error, or a distancing mechanism for his fable."

I like your list of possibilities how Plato's date came into being. But haven't you forgottten (a) some possibilities, how this date came into being, and (b) haven't you forgotten to rule out some very unlikely possibilities?

E.P. Grondine

10/31/2018 11:29:12 am

@Franke -

If there are any other possibilities, please share them.

What is funny to me is that Andrew Lawler worked on a beach book set in the Carolina Banks, while I am working on the formation of the Carolina Banks themselves.

George Howard and his associates are working on the formation of the Carolina Bays, which they assert have to be from the 10,800 BCE impact, and can not be from anything else, say another impact ca. 13,000 BCE, while they are apparently oblivious to the tsunami sequence and deposits in the Carolinas.

In the meantime, NASA is claiming no impacts happened at all, and too many archaeologists here claim the Native oral histories are just myths.

The most likely interpretation can be found when looking what other authors wrote in the same time about similar topics, i.e. history in our case. There we find, that all ancient Greek authors wrote of a past in this dimensions, although they are wrong, as we moderns know. Even Plato himself wrote about an age of Egypt of 10000 years in another context.

Therefore, the most likely possibility to interprete Plato's 9000 years is, that Plato himself believed this, and that he just was a victim to the same error to which all the ancient Greeks were victims. (And if Plato nevertheless invented it, as a 2nd possibility, it was not recognizable as impossible und unlikely to his fellow citizens, as it is to us today.)

What you can rule out:

You can rule out a handing down over 10.000 years by oral tradition. Surely. There is no possibility for this, even with the art of writing. Just think what we know e.g. of Jesus. We know something, of course, but not much. And this even with a written tradition. But there even was no writing in the ages around 11000 BC. Writing came into beging around 3000 BC, only. Any considerations to take Plato literally in this question are futile, and against any likelihood.

Doc Rock

10/31/2018 01:53:42 pm

In anthropology the concept of myth is used in reference to the stories that a group tells about themselves and/or the world, generally with supernatural elements to them. Often used in reference to indigenous groups the term is also used in reference to the stories that a given ethnic group tells about its origins in a manner that does not necessarily involve supernatural elements.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/31/2018 06:56:07 pm

"You can rule out a handing down over 10.000 years by oral tradition. Surely. There is no possibility for this, even with the art of writing."

@TFranke: You are insulting Chief Grondine by suggesting that Injuns cannot reliably transmit a story over and over without deviation for thousands of years, Please keep in mind that many Injuns are well over 7 feet tall, It's a known fact.

"August" Frank talks about the following text:
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_italos.htm

In his zeal to slur my reputation, "August" Frank claimed above, that I presented the Italos thesis initially as a "positive proof". But I never did this. It was always only about the mere possibility.

But for certain Atlantis searchers as well as Atlantis skeptics, there is only black and white. They do not know of academic categories such as likelihood, possibility, etc. They think they always could clearly know or clearly reject an idea. These are the real fools.

And one of the sentences, "August" Frank did not mention, in order to slur my reputation is this:

"Though this cannot serve at all as a proof and stays uncertain, it is not unlikely at the same time."

and:

"The presented approach - besides its speculative character - remains incomplete, of course."

Reply

Frank

10/29/2018 10:16:04 pm

At the 2008 Atlantis conference, which was titled, The Atlantis Hypothesis, Herr Franke presented two short papers.
1. The Importance of Herodotus' Histories for the Atlantis problem.
2. King Italos = King Atlas of Atlantis? A contribution to the Sea Peoples hypothesis.

The Abstract for paper #2, and it is Verbatim.

"As a contribution to the hypothesis, that the Atlanteans are identical with the sea peoples who attacked Egypt around 1200 BC, the hypothesis is presented, that king Italos of the Sicels is identical with king Atlas, that the island of Sicily is identical with the island of Atlantis, and that the Sicels' central sanctuary of the Palikoi is meant by Plato's descriptions of the capital city of Atlantis."

Note that Franke uses the terms, is and are, rather than may be, and could be, as associated with the term, identical. He is not presenting an hypothesis, but, as he believes, a theory which is entirely true. And he is waiting, like Einstein, for experts in other fields to corroborate his theory. In Franke's case, he is waiting for a future when the Egyptology experts will take an interest in Atlantis, who can then dig up the proof Franke is expecting of his theory, or rather, of that which he "knows" to be fact.

For Franke says this on his site:
Outlook
"The presented approach - besides its speculative character - remains incomplete, of course. It is not possible to advance further into detail without the support of experts. As long as the experts do not start to deal with the Atlantis problem in an unprejudiced way and with real interest, no further progress can be expected in this area. But this will not happen, unless substantial progress is made on other fields of Atlantis research, which will attract the interest of Egyptologists. So we have to wait and to exercise patience."

Yes, Herr Franke, we will have to wait for our own future Atlantis solar eclipse, to prove you right!

When I talk of a "hypothesis", then I talk of a "hypothesis", not of a "theory". And concerning my Sicily hypothesis, I do not wait until some others make them a theory, I work on it since years.

Concerning the transcription of Egyptian names into Greek names, we have to wait indeed that some experts take up the problem. But this is only a part of the problem. Yet again, we do not have to wait in order to find a transcription of Italos at least possible.

FRANK has serious problems with differentiations, nuances, etc. This may be the reason why he has radical political views, e.g. he is a white supremacist (or did I get this wrong?)

AmericanCool"disco"dan

10/30/2018 09:39:42 am

"FRANK has serious problems with differentiations, nuances, etc. This may be the reason why he has radical political views, e.g. he is a white supremacist (or did I get this wrong?)"

As a beneficiary of Jew killing, living in a country where Auschwitz is a Disney reconstruction, you don't get to say that. Enjoy your Africans!

Bezalel

10/30/2018 10:39:37 am

@ TFRANKE

Most white supremacists would not take the time, nor possess the intellectual balls to understand the reference associated with Einstein's work and the anticipatory 1919 solar eclipse.

Alluding to the Nazi past of Germany is the only argument you have? Poor ......

August Frank

10/29/2018 11:19:11 am

As I have read in the Atlantis community, based on another village fool's claim, Maltese teaches us that Malta in the Etruscan tongue is Atlas spelled backwards, if we interpose the ending "s" as a beginning "M." Therefore Malta must be Plato's Atlantis, since Malta is an island, and more specifically, the island of Atlas, if we consider the consonant "s," to be a Masculine one, since the consonant M is also the symbol for the gender, masculine. And it takes a real Muscular man to move an Atlas along these Maltese lines, especially with what an Atlas bears on his shoulders; the weight of world/heavens. As Muscular and Man also begin with the consonant "m," and muscular is analogous with man, gender speaking, since a man is made out to be stronger than the feminine.

Of this we can be sure, but of what you lingo experts are arguing about I'm not so certain. For sure you are arguing about castles in the air. What is there to argue about, seriously? The grammar of Atlantis? You language experts are analogous to botanical experts. It's like arguing about some of the details of Jack and The Beanstalk; were they kidney beans, or pinto beans that Jack planted?

Fee-fi-fo-fum!
I smell the blood of an English man:
Be he alive, or be he dead,
I'll grind his bones to make my bread.

I'm no academic giant, but I smell the brains of a lot of idiots, accredited academics or otherwise, arguing about the "facts" of another fairy tale, Atlantis.

A T L A N T I S
Another Tale, Long And Never Terminated, Inducing Speculation

Reply

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/29/2018 01:23:07 pm

"As Muscular and Man also begin with the consonant "m," and muscular is analogous with man, gender speaking, since a man is made out to be stronger than the feminine."

The linguists tell us that "ma" is generally a baby's first word because it's made by opening the mouth, and therefore is mapped to "mother". I can't believe you walked into that.

Frater Suck It Now Won't You

Reply

Frank

10/29/2018 09:06:33 pm

You sound like the infamous poster in these here neck of the woods, Americanegro. In fact you must be the same idiot. You do not know your vowels, nor your baby talk. All babies are born speaking Italian, as "ma" is not the same as "mo", as mo is the first syllable of the English word mother. Whereas "ma" is the first syllable of the Italian word mamma. And Mamma = Mother. You Disco Dan/Americanegro screwed up, or as we say, FU bro, where bro = frate with a long running consonant rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr up yours!

Americancol"Disco"Dan

10/30/2018 06:32:40 am

That was .... interesting. Where are you institutionalized?

Pops

10/30/2018 12:47:10 pm

Jason can you do something about Americanegro/ Disco Dan? He always makes the comment threads hellish. I prefer trolls to this guy by a long shot.

(d) AmericanPlunderHead is an open character, who has no hidden agenda (but FRANK has one, obviously).

Frank

10/30/2018 04:12:16 pm

T. Franke, you always get it wrong, whether on Atlantis, or on racial matters. You got it wrong, I'm no white supremacist. How could I be?, as I'm dark skinned, and not color blind to not notice my own color. Besides, I'm really a Platonic supremacist, if any supremacist at all. And this is primarily why I have a problem with you. You are a Platonic idiot, but thinking yourself superior to those other fools and their silly hypotheses on Plato's Atlantis. As I told you, you don't belong with the skeptics, and you are not welcomed with the Atlantologists. You are an overly applied historical-critical dunce. In other words, you outsmart yourself because you argue from both sides of the story. You use sources to make your arguments, which when looked at carefully, and in full, those same sources contradict and refute you fully. Your have no reason nor rhyme to your silly claims and propositions. You could become proficient in 50 more languages, and you would still be an educated idiot, as you do not know how to reason, nor do you posses self-honesty, and modesty. Although modesty would not be good for a needy man like you. You think too much of yourself, when you are but a little man in the world of Plato, mentally speaking. You cannot accept sound, logical contradiction which clearly proves you, and your silly hypothesis wrong. If you were redeemable in any way, and open to logical criticism, you could be made to see just how idiotic and totally illogical your hypothesis on Plato's Atlantis really is. But making you see these faults and errors of yours, is like trying to tell a mule to stop wasting his time and energy kicking at the flies pestering him, as it is futile.

But that is not the main problem with you, as you are the biggest hypocrite, when it comes to Atlantis. You criticize your colleagues on their hypotheses, while yours needs to be criticized the most. And you must remember that if you had any charisma, charm, and real knowledge about Plato's Atlantis, plausible or otherwise, people would be coming to you, and not the other way around. You sit at Colavito's feet, like a dog, as I said before, waiting on Jason to throw you a bone of approval for your idiotic hypothesis. Therefore, keep barking away!

@FRANK:
Thank you again very much for just another posting which again tells much more about you than about me.

Oh what "modesty" you show, and oh, what "charme" you have! If anyone is in need of following the Delphic advice of self-recognition, then you are :-)

And my work is such a total failure that even academics changed their mind over it, and partially even made positive comments on it .... and if somebody is not listening to arguments then it is you. It is you who desperately clings to obviously wrong ideas.

Especially your Platonic religious fanaticism is dangerous. Do you follow Plato also in killing people considered not fit for the ideal state?

Reply

Joe Scales

10/30/2018 06:14:55 pm

So T. Franke is an idiot? Took you how many weeks to realize this? Well Frank, the longer you argue with an idiot, the harder it is to tell the difference.

@Joe Scales:
So what exactly is the "idiotic" part of my initial contribution to this Woudhuizen discussion? Am I not allowed to say that Atlantis skeptics, too, apply the liquida interchangeability for their purproses? What is "idiotic" in siding with certain academics who said that the 9000 years of Plato corresponded to common beliefs in Plato's time and therefore cannot be considered as an indication for fictionality? Are these academics "idiotic", too? Could you please point out in general, why you think that it is "idiotic" to apply historical criticism to all kinds of texts? Would you reject the application of historical criticism to the Bible? Are the academics which I cite on my Web page with positive words about my work "idiotic", too?

E.P. Grondine

10/31/2018 11:39:17 am

@Franke -

It would probably be more useful to look at what actually occurred, and then try to figure out how and what Plato used to construct his moral fable as a secondary matter.

If only possible, I would follow you. But how do you know what happened, and what occurred, as the initial event? You cannot know which events belong to the distorted end result of Plato's story. I think, you only can work the other way round: Going back in history, step by step, instead of starting with an event, and then going forward. Or at least trying both. Like drilling a tunnel from both sides of the mountain, and hopefully coming together in the midlle. Because there are too many possible initial events.

And I recommend not to call Plato's Atlantis story a "fable". A fable is a story about animals whereas Plato's Atlantis story is about human beings. Animals play only a passive role in the Atlantis story.

And I have a question to you: Herodotus' Histories tell a story with a strong moral message. But are they just only a morality tale? And if not, why not? Do you think that Herodotus invented the age of Egypt of 11340+ years in order to make only a symbolic, or moral, statement? Or do you think that Herodotus really believed in what he wrote?

E.P. Grondine

10/31/2018 01:39:41 pm

@Franke

We have geological data from Spain and the Americas that strongly indicate impact meg-tsunami in the Atlantic Ocean.

It is quite common for people to try and give some meaning to catastrophes, and Plato is no different - people were punished for their sins. It is a moral fable.

Another item which you might find useful is my analysis of Linear B and Linear A toponyms and leadership terms.But then I also discussed those people's use of psycho-active factors in their religions.

You want "the truth"? You can not handle "the truth", to paraphrase a famous movie's line. Those peoples were not modern day Greeks or Turks.

Herodotus was a very good historian, IMO. I am not familiar with any mention by him of "Atlantis". I mainly went through him for information on Kalliste, modern Thera.

I managed now to find my old e-mails with FRANK from January / February 2016. Even at our first contact, I had to tell FRANK, that he has exaggerated RELIGIOUS views on Plato:

T. Franke 2016:
>> I would not say that Plato's god is a matter of "faith" or "religion". Plato's god is rather a matter of reason and reasonable convictions. You cannot just "believe" in a philosophic god. You only can call reason a heavenly gift, if you like, yes. But I would not call Plato's views a "religion". There is a difference between (traditional) religion and philosophy.<<

And here we are at the crucial point of FRANK's ideology:

FRANK rejects historical-critical thinking EXACTLY because of the same reasons which lead any other religious fanatic to reject historical criticism. He cannot stand that I apply such profane interpretation methods like historical criticism to Plato's divine texts. This is the core dilemma of FRANK. FRANK is not siding with academic principles.To the contrary.

But in 2016, there was no sign of enmity. We had a polite dialogue and left in peace:

T. Franke 2016:
>> Mr. XXX, I hope I could help you. I can only support you in making up your own mind, by telling you about my understanding of Plato's dialogues.<<

FRANK 2016:
>> and I will say that you, Thorwald, are a good spirit. Anyone that tries to understand Socrates/Plato cannot help but being a person with noble intentions. Your unselfish willingness to discourse with a perfect "strange" stranger, relating your inner feelings of your beliefs in life and existence is proof indeed.<<

I wonder what made FRANK change his attitude towards me and what could be done from my side to come back to peace?

Reply

Frank

10/30/2018 08:39:30 pm

You are such a naive dunce, my dear Thorwald. This is precisely why you could not possibly ever hope to come anywhere near Plato. If you mistake the sarcasm I threw at you, as you are pointing out, as positive comments towards you, and I'm just a nobody without any comedy talent, how can you possibly hope to understand Socrates' irony, and Plato's sarcasm? These two gentlemen were at the top of their business, as far as using irony and sarcasm towards those that were so presumptuous of their self-believed wisdom. They were the sophists and men of high standing in the eyes of the general public. You, Franke, are a kind of sophist, an unsophisticated one, in that you believe yourself very wise, and above your Atlantology colleagues, but you are a very little and insignificant fool.

Let me offer you an Apology, as proof of my sentiments towards hypocrites like yourself, and I assure you they are as sincere as can be, religiously.

Why do I mention this? Because I am going to explain to you why I have such an evil name. When I heard the answer, I said to myself, What can the god mean? and what is the interpretation of his riddle? for I know that I have no wisdom, small or great. What then can he mean when he says that I am the wisest of men? And yet he is a god, and cannot lie; that would be against his nature. After long consideration, I thought of a method of trying the question. I reflected that if I could only find a man wiser than myself, then I might go to the god with a refutation in my hand. I should say to him, ’Here is a man who is wiser than I am; but you said that I was the wisest.’ Accordingly I went to one who had the reputation of wisdom, and observed him–his name I need not mention; he was a politician whom I selected for examination–and the result was as follows: When I began to talk with him, I could not help thinking that he was not really wise, although he was thought wise by many, and still wiser by himself; and thereupon I tried to explain to him that he thought himself wise, but was not really wise; and the consequence was that he hated me, and his enmity was shared by several who were present and heard me. So I left him, saying to myself, as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, I am better off than he is,– for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows; I neither know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him. Then I went to another who had still higher pretensions to wisdom, and my conclusion was exactly the same. Whereupon I made another enemy of him, and of many others besides him. Then I went to one man after another, being not unconscious of the enmity which I provoked, and I lamented and feared this: but necessity was laid upon me,–the word of God, I thought, ought to be considered first. And I said to myself, Go I must to all who appear to know, and find out the meaning of the oracle. And I swear to you, Athenians, by the dog I swear! –for I must tell you the truth–the result of my mission was just this: I found that the men most in repute were all but the most foolish; and that others less esteemed were really wiser and better.

Who are these academics praising you, Herr Franke? Please bringing here, to defend you from my lies!

we had a polite dialogue in a series of mails over weeks in January and February 2016. You asked me about my opinions about Plato and Religion, and we had some agreement and some friendly disagreement. And we parted in peace.

And now you pretend that it allegedly was all a hoax? All your friendliness allegedly only "sarcasm"? That you were an inimical mind and a deceiver right from the very beginning?!

Sorry, this is not credible.

What *is* credible is the simple fact that you have a religious affair with Plato, and that I had to disappoint your religious views, what you did not show, then. Just look at the religious connotations of your wording, see above. Your words are no sarcasm but fit perfectly to your mind set. You only pretend now, that it was sarcasm.

And here we are at the crucial point with Atlantis: Why shall we assume that certain passages in the Atlantis dialogues are meant ironically? On the level of certain translations they are clearly irony and sarcasm. But not on the level of the original text. This whole "it is obvious for sensible persons" is annoying bullshit, immune against all criticism. And where criticism is not possible, there is no academic approach any more, but dogmatism.

Cit.: "You, Franke, are a kind of sophist, an unsophisticated one, in that you believe yourself very wise, and above your Atlantology colleagues, but you are a very little and insignificant fool."

I cannot remember that Socrates ever tried to convince anybody by repeating time and again the same nonsense. One thing is sure: Somebody, who is expressing one insult after the other cannot be a wise person.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/30/2018 11:07:23 pm

Frank pointed out in the very first post that T. Franke would pollute this thread with his Atlantis nonsense.

"Do you follow Plato also in killing people considered not fit for the ideal state?"

Do you not have abortion on demand in Germany? In the U.S. we use it to manage the Negro population. I dodged a bullet there! Doch, mutherfucker!

Yes, I saw that too. Wolter tries to play the sceptic while totally selling the scam. BUT HE HAD A BROTHER FREEMASON LOOK AT THE STUFF! Did you notice that the original "documents" have been thrown in the trash so are not available for examination? Or conservation or carbon dating? I guess that's just what one does with documents from the 14th century.

Reply

Jim

10/31/2018 10:35:57 am

Ya, I noted the convenient lack of evidence.
A supposed 40 year professional (Muir) just tosses out a cache of medieval, priceless and irreplaceable documents that would turn history on it's ear.
Not to mention her own supposed family tree,,,,,,,

"Translating the journals from Latin, Old English, and modern English she soon learned the story of her own 17th great-grandfather, Prince Henry Sinclair of Orkney and Scotland"

" Diana became a professional genealogist at the age of 18 and has continued to do genealogy for over 40 years."

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

10/31/2018 10:54:09 am

Something that has puzzled me from the beginning is how a Norseman from the 14th century was able to write in modern English. This is the Canterbury Tales era. I may be calling Fraud 2 Electric Boogaloo on this one.

Wolter's endorsement is of course clear proof of fraud.

Jim

10/31/2018 11:17:08 am

Wolter claims she did a bang up job of translating the documents, even though there are no remaining documents to compare to.

"there is no mistaking she has done a phenomenal job of translating the Latin (and Old English in later journals) into modern English."

No explanation for the Norseman writing in Latin or English, though, I suspect he will have brought along English Cistercian Monk on the journey.

Joe Scales

11/1/2018 03:49:56 pm

You know it's bad when even Anthony Warren questions it...

Frank

10/31/2018 11:16:34 am

Franke,

In reference to this; "I cannot remember that Socrates ever tried to convince anybody by repeating time and again the same nonsense. One thing is sure: Somebody, who is expressing one insult after the other cannot be a wise person."

Just for starters, you making me out a "white supremacist" is not an insult? But never mind me, and our insults, as you constantly demeanor your Atlantology colleagues, especially more so those that totally reject your hypothesis. You degrade those academics whom you have sought to review your ideas, after they refuse to accept any of it, and have politely explained it to you. But I suppose with all of that, you make out yourself a stranger when it comes to insulting others. No one will argue with you when it comes to admitting that Franke has a sharp tongue, when it comes to insulting others. What they argue is the type of tongue, as we can all say, truthfully, that Franke has a "forked tongue," as the Indians say. And we all argue that you speak nonsense, and conceit all day long. If you think yourself a great contributor to human knowledge, it is not for you to say!

Now, Franke, as far as Socrates not convincing others, as you say I do with you, and appears to you as repetitive nonsense, let me offer the opinion of someone who was very close to Socrates. As this witness does affirm what you deny, as to just how Socrates, repeatedly, went about trying to convince idiots like yourself, with their own nonsense. As a wise German physician once told us about the true art of healing, first and foremost; Like cures Like. And you Franke, are an "ass" packing nonsense.

The witness: For, although I forgot to mention this to you before, his words are like the images of Silenus which open; they are ridiculous when you first hear them; he clothes himself in
language that is like the skin of the wanton satyr–for his talk is of pack-asses and smiths and cobblers and curriers, and he is always repeating the same things in the same words, so that any ignorant or inexperienced person might feel disposed to laugh at him; but he who opens the bust and sees what is within will find that they are the only words which have a meaning in them, and also the most divine, abounding in fair images of virtue, and of the widest comprehension, or rather extending to the whole duty of a good and honorable man.
This, friends, is my praise of Socrates.

@EP Grondine:
Not exactly. The destruction from above is not an impact event, but rain. Heavy rain. As Eberhard Zangger pointed out very correctly.

The Phaethon story is not representing an impact event for two reasons: (a) Phaethon is the son of the sun god, and the chariot is the sun chariot. But the son did not have an impact on earth. (b) The Egyptian priest in Plato's Atlantis story very precisely limits the interpretation of the Phaethon myth to the coming closer to earth, yet not to the impact.

Cit.: "You degrade those academics whom you have sought to review your ideas, after they refuse to accept any of it, and have politely explained it to you."

Just another example, where I really do not have the least idea what you are talking about. Your line of argument becomes more and more similar to dadaistic babbling. You should leave the dream world you have built up, the sooner the better.

Reply

E.P. Grondine

10/31/2018 01:48:10 pm

@Franke

"You should leave the dream world you have built up, the sooner the better. "

From my point of view, that applies to you yourself as well.

Once again, the two of you, figure out what happened first, THEN examine Plato's moral fable.

There is this little problem of the complete collapse of the international order around 1200 BCE, and no one has any definitive idea as to what actually occurred.

Frank

10/31/2018 04:07:07 pm

"You should leave the dream world you have built up, the sooner the better." There Franke, let me tell you about my dream world, before I leave you to your reality, which is the world of ignorance.

By the dog of Egypt, I said, there I agree with you; and I was thinking as much just now when I said that strange consequences would follow, and that I was afraid we were on the wrong track; for however ready we may be to admit that this is wisdom that you possess, this self-claimed contribution of yours to human knowledge, I certainly cannot make out what good this sort of thing does to us.
What do you mean? said Franke; I wish that you could make me understand what you mean.
I dare say that what I am saying is nonsense, I replied; and yet if a man has any feeling of what is due to himself, he cannot let the thought which comes into his mind pass away unheeded and unexamined.
I like that, Franke said.
Hear, then, I said, my own dream; whether coming through the horn or the ivory gate, I cannot tell. The dream is this: Let us suppose that wisdom is such as we are now defining, and that she has absolute sway over us; then each action will be done according to the arts or sciences, and no one professing to be a pilot when he is not, or any physician or general, or anyone else pretending to know matters of which he is ignorant, will deceive or elude us; our health will be improved; our safety at sea, and also in battle, will be assured; our coats and shoes, and all other instruments and implements will be skillfully made, because the workmen will be good and true. Aye, and if you please, you may suppose that prophecy, which is the knowledge of the future, will be under the control of wisdom, and that she will deter deceivers and set up the true prophets in their place as the revealers of the future. Now I quite agree that mankind, thus provided, would live and act according to knowledge, for wisdom would watch and prevent ignorance from intruding on us. But whether by acting according to knowledge we shall act well and be happy, my dear Franke,– this is a point which we have not yet been able to determine.

Americancool"Disco"Dan

10/31/2018 04:18:13 pm

You harp on this bullshit like Lyndon LaRouche and the Treaty of Westphalia. The sweet release of death cannot come soon enough.

How is that paraphrasing Plato? What part of Plato's work are you citing?

Try to answer without using your usual term "asshole". You're just a fucked out old man and can't even answer this question.

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E.P. Grondine

10/31/2018 07:39:50 pm

Here you go, Shit for Brains -

"There is a story,
Which even you have preserved,
That once upon a time
Phaethon, the son of Helios,
Having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot,
Because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father,
Burnt up all that was upon the earth,
And was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt.

"Now this has the form of a myth,
but really signifies
A declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth,
And a great conflagration of things upon the earth,
Which recurs after long intervals;
At such times those who live
Upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places
Are more liable to destruction
Than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore.
And from this calamity the Nile,
Who is our never-failing saviour,
Delivers and preserves us.

"On the other hand,
When the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water,
The survivors in your country
Are herdsmen and shepherds
Who dwell on the mountains;
But those who, like you, live in cities
Are carried by the rivers into the sea.

"Whereas in this land,
Neither then nor at any other time,
Does the water come down from above on the fields,
having always a tendency to come up from below;
For which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient."

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Eirik Sinclair

11/1/2018 01:26:53 am

Bibble, babble, boo...

The rich killing the rich to get richer... death from above.
The poor collecting into hordes of poor people... death from below.

1200 BC - Mycenaean strongmen were so large that the thinner populations they created excluded them from the countries they had also created by instituting social confines. The rejected pools collected into waves as the descending class grew weaker. The waves returned in a massive tidal wave which destroyed what was above. What was below returned to what was above. But the wave had moved on. The mountain grew again. But the wave had mixed into a pool. So, the mountain strengthened in height. The pools moved outward to other lands. The mountain grew again. The world is not flat, as they would have no where else to go. For now there were two mountains. The pools slid back and forth from one mountain to the other in a wave that diminished and renewed. Until all that was left were the crumbling rocks of mountains returning to the depths from which they came. The sun spews out its gases, they return as matter, which is burned up and spewed out again into the cosmos as a wave of light. Plato knew of this.

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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan

11/1/2018 08:01:14 am

You went a long way to find the word "above" and you are a bitchy bitchlington with a fondness for profanity and under caution on Hallloween because of issues. What a creep. Impact event my ass. Don't offend again Chief!

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E.P. Grondine

11/1/2018 10:51:52 am

Too much fun -

Erik, your parody of the thinking of the seriously confused is very entertaining. It is nice diversion, even if you actually are seriuosly trying to figure out the 1200 BCE collapse

Shit for Brains, you are up to your usual stuff, hence your name.

Looking at Plato again after 13 years, one has to admit that he came up with a great literary device.

In the meantime, NASA is claiming no recent impacts with the Earth have happened at all, while too many archaeologists here in the US claim the Native oral histories are just myths.

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Jim

11/1/2018 12:01:10 pm

So, who are we gonna believe, NASA, or some guy who peddles genuine native American bic lighter covers from a tent on the side of a dirt road ?

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P.G. Grenadine

11/1/2018 12:51:36 pm

"E.P. GRONDINE
10/5/2018 11:06:44 am
Since you won't get up from your computer and go out and get laid, may I suggest that as an alternative you go fuck yourself."

E.P. Grondine

11/1/2018 05:11:21 pm

@Jim

I am not the only person working this problem Far from it. I'm just a hack writer whop put together a book back in 2005.

There are 65+ heavy duty academics at it, financing their research without any government funding at all:

https://cometresearchgroup.org/
https://cosmictusk.com/

Its a free country: you can believe whatever you like, and you can think whatever you like. But other people might consider you a fool.

As to how you can get a Chris Wilson Native themed Bic lighter cover, that is not my problem. The last one I have has several people waiting in line for it. Which person will be best for it?

P..G. Grenadine

11/1/2018 05:25:29 pm

Well, the "hack writer" part is true.

"E.P. GRONDINE
10/5/2018 11:06:44 am
Since you won't get up from your computer and go out and get laid, may I suggest that as an alternative you go fuck yourself."

How's your squaw George Glass from Toronto Ontario Canada? Do the right thing and free up some oxygen for other people. Been in any imaginary flash floods lately?

E.P. Grondine

11/1/2018 07:07:52 pm

@Jim

To make this all really really clear, it's a free country, and you can be as stupid as you want to be. You can even believe that Mars is somehow like the Earth.

Just don't expect everyone on the planet to be as dumb as you are:
https://www.quora.com/Are-we-better-off-building-a-base-on-the-moon-or-at-one-of-the-Lagrangian-points/answer/Edmund-Grondine

So only 10 years to go, and then it becomes academic. Of course, it already does not matter what you yourself think about this.

Jim

11/1/2018 09:31:47 pm

??? Do you think calling someone "stupid" or "dumb" lends you credibility ?
You do not have any credibility.

P.G. Grenadine

11/2/2018 12:55:30 am

"E.P. GRONDINE
10/5/2018 11:06:44 am
Since you won't get up from your computer and go out and get laid, may I suggest that as an alternative you go fuck yourself."

Res ipsa loquitur.

E.P. Grondine

11/2/2018 10:37:16 am

@Jim

Considering the number of lives at risk, pointing out the obvious seems appropriate.

And in this case, it is not only me who has no "credibility", it is 65 senior scientists.

And those 65 are just the scientists working on one impact event There were other impact events (and other scientists studying them), as somebody knew way back when:

"Now this has the form of a myth,
but really signifies
A declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth,
And a great conflagration of things upon the earth,
Which recurs after long intervals;"

P.G. Grenadine

11/2/2018 12:35:22 pm

"The only reward is that me and some of my friends efforts have contributed to saving millions of lives."
https://www.dailygrail.com/blog/did-comet-impact-kill-the-mammoths/#comment-44341

Whoa! I’m enjoying the template/theme of this website. It’s simple, yet effective. A lot of times it’s very hard to get that “perfect balance” between superb usability and visual appeal. I must say you’ve done a very good job with this.

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Riley V

11/3/2018 10:04:10 am

Thank you Jason. I love this stuff.

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I'm an author and editor who has published on a range of topics, including archaeology, science, and horror fiction. There's more about me in the About Jason tab.