A war within a war appears to have broken out regarding allegations of a third weapon at the scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry’s murder.

The Department of Justice claims that only two semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles were recovered at the scene of the shootout between a Border Patrol tactical team and armed Mexican criminals that night in the Arizona desert. House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA) ruffled feathers within the DOJ and with Democrats on his committee by repeating allegations of a third weapon at the scene, and by announcing plans to question the FBI about the investigation of Agent Terry’s death.

Border Patrol agents had mentioned a third weapon to Agent Terry’s family. CBS News obtained audiotape of a conversation between an ATF agent who was part of Operation Fast and Furious and the dealer who sold weapons under ATF direction to cartel smugglers. The blunt conversation is very hard to spin:

Agent: Well there was two.

Dealer: There’s three weapons.

Agent: There’s three weapons.

Dealer: I know that.

Agent: And yes, there’s serial numbers for all three.

Dealer: That’s correct.

Agent: Two of them came from this store.

Dealer: I understand that.

Agent: There’s an SKS that I don’t think came from … Dallas or Texas or something like that.

Dealer: I know. talking about the AK’s –

Agent: The two AK’s came from this store.

Dealer: I know that.

Agent: OK.

Dealer: I did the godd***ed trace –

Agent: Third weapon is the SKS has nothing to do with it.

Dealer: That didn’t come from me.

Agent: No and there is — that’s my knowledge. And I spoke to someone who would know those are the only ones they have. So this is the agent who’s working the case, all I can go by is what she told me.

Dallas has long been alleged to be the site of another major gunwalking operation running weapons to the cartel, one of 10 claimed gunwalking operations in five states. The FBI’s statement on the allegation released Monday seems definitive:

The FBI has made clear that reports of a third gun recovered from the perpetrators at the scene of Agent Terry’s murder are false.

The FBI is very careful with their words: they declare there was not a third gun recovered a) “from the perpetrators,” b) “at the scene of Agent Terry’s murder.”

An inference one could make from the careful phrasing: if there was a third weapon, it was not recovered in direct proximity to one of the Mexican criminals involved in the crime, and it was more than likely dropped as the suspects fled the scene — which is also what allegedly happened with both of the AK-pattern rifles used in the shootout. They were recovered a short distance away.

56 Comments, 26 Threads

1.
spinoneone

Given the cross-department areas 0f responsibility [DHS for Customs & IMM + Border Patrol], DoJ for ATF and FBI, State for international clearances, and Treasury for multiple reasons, there must have been at least one meeting, and probably more, of the “Deputies Committee” to approve this operation. Even more likely if more than one operation of a similar nature was on-going. So, if you want the truth, do an FOIA request for the minutes of that/those meetings between the Deputy Secretaries of Homeland Security, State, Treasury and Justice.

And don’t forget testing bullets,powder burns,rifling marks,trajectory and all those lovely CSI tests.

LaSuthenboy,
With the common link being guns for use by drug dealers and Obama’s past comments that stopping drug cartels in the US would cause economic hardship for us and Mexico’s financial collapse,i’d suspect a connection there.

Good summary, Mr. Owens. The tool marks on the shell casing should tell the story, if the SKS was fired and cases recovered. You are also correct to scrutinize everything these liars say for Clintonesque parsing. For example, if the third gun was an SKS, they could truthfully say only two AKS pattern rifles were recovered, while still intentionally misleading.

This bloody mess is just too big to cover up forever. There are too many telltale details that will escape all efforts to suppress and parse, too many people involved who now recognize their careers and their future freedom are at stake. Sooner or later someone with enough of the inside story to break it wide open will decide it is a race to be the first to squeal, because the first rat gets the best plea bargain.

Yeah, I caught that, too. Their statement could mean that only two of the recovered firearms were Kalashnikovs, with an unmentioned additional firearm, or, heck, even a dozen other firearms. They are not going to say what the other or others were.

iVE KNOWN that ever since Clinton was in office. After all, it was the FBI that was mishandling evidence about Whitewater, the Riadys, and John Huang and Charlie Yah Lin Trie. Also “lost” evidence about the Buddhist “monks” and there 5k “contributions” to AlBore and Albores making phone calls from the WH to Contributors. Funny how Bernard Schwartz was never interviewed about $750k to Bubbas campaign just before the Clintons moved liscensing authority to the Commerce Dept(Ron Brown, anyone?) from the DOD, which refused to approve the deal(funny how Les Aspin suddenly resigned, wasnt it?). The FBI and CIA long ago ceased to be pro-American. Too many politicians only concerned with there careers now. I know-my little brother is a forensics agent for the FBI.

Holy Good Gaia….when will you Nazists let up on the “Gun Walker” garbage? It’s a non-starter, it’s going nowhere. President Obama is teflon to this issue. It’s amazing that you’re all pinning your hopes on this “scandal” and the efforts of that multi-billionaire slug Issa. There are millions of people who are unemployed (about 99% of the population, as I understand it), and all you Tea Sniffers want to talk about are guns. Aren’t you people supposed to be a bunch of crazed gun nuts anyway? One would think that you’d be happy that President Obama allowed more guns into the hands of the public. You know who needs more guns? The Occupy Wall Street crowd. I’ve always been against the private ownership of guns and those filthy chia pets, but the 99%’ers are the only people who could logically put some guns to good use right about now. Losers……

At every appearance of LovelyEarth — and there have been many — I post my dutiful little post, to no avail.

LovelyEarth is a well-known and frequent parodist in these parts. At the risk of insulting PJ readers, I would also say s/he is an obvious parodist. But a raft of deluded responders appears every time and about half the thread goes to denouncing LovelyEarth.

Arhooley, you are right. . . .people just don’t get the humor there. . . . could it be folks are getting so uptight and paranoid that they just can’t see it, or are they actually too dumb to pick it up? At any rate, I look forward to LE’s commentary, it is always good for a wry chuckle.

I have been following as closly as I can and the subject of DOJ parsing words reminds me wnat I read about the Terry shooting. I believe the exact wording was “the bullet that caused agent Terry’s DEATH was to fragmented to identify” In other words, there may have been a dozen recovered bullets in Terry’s body but the one the coronor determined caused his death was to fragmented to identify. In a shooting of this manner, there ususally are multiple bullet wounds on the victim. A bullet traveling through the victims skull would be very deformed but also the most likely to be the cause of death. Other projectiles recovered from soft tissue would be intact but not the official cause of death. DOJ is hiding behind this “cause of death” excuse to avoid having to admit that the other bullets recovered from the body were fired from F&F weapons recovered at he crimescene.

“There are millions of people unemployed ( about 99% as you understand it.) The actual unemployment is 25 million out of work, the government says 15 million. These official Labor Dept.
statistics are not even close to 99% of what you say you understand.

The percentage of people of of work is between 9.1% and 16% depending on whose figures one is using. But, as with the usual lies perpetrated by you trolling liberals, your figures are completely fabricated with noting to back up what you think you know.

If you wish to debate on guns, unemployment or anything else, why don’t you stop falsifying you figures so that we can have a serious intellectual debate. Or can you only support you position with lies and deceit. If not, I would suggest you stop trolling and certainly stop trying to prove your points with lies and sarcasm. It only makes you look like the idiot you probably are.

Lovely earth?…nice name but maybe you should change it to “clueless planet” there was a border agent murdered as a result of this stupid program and it has corruption and ignorance written all over it. We must find out who was resposible for it….I don’t care if it was barack or bush…the people resposible must be held accoutable. I see no evdence that anyone is trying to fabricate evidence to somehow falsly pin this on obama…we don’t have to cause his failures and policies will get him booted out. If there is nothing to hide then Holder needs to come clean…say here is everything and do your investigation…you give Obama way too much credit if you think this whole investigation is just about him….if it leads to him so be it…if it doesn’t…it don’t care…I want to know the truth regardless of who’s behind it….get a clue!

Seems that your “I’ve always been against the private ownership of guns AND THOSE FILTHY CHIA PETS,” ought to have been enough of a hint that your post was parody, but you see we’ve all heard such absurdities in supposedly serious discussions that it’s hard to tell any more.

Ive got another guy in mind-either MARK LEVIN(former Deputy AG under Meese) or Jay Sekulow. Two real actual HONEST lawyers. Maybe even scare the living daylights out of the lefties and ask Ann Coulter.

LOVELY EARTH, HAVE A LOVELY DAY IN THE WORLD YOU LIVE IN. ONE THING THOUGH, THERE IS A COMENT COMING TO YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD IN THE NEXT 15 MONTHS. SO THOSE ANNUALS YOU WILL PLANT WILL NOT BE OF AN VALUE TO YOU.
SORRY CHECK “6″

Once upon a time I thought that this was an effort to make Obama’s 90% lie come true. I have come to believe it is more than that. To trace guns thought the criminal world one would send out one or a few guns with some means of tracking them. There is only one reason to give thousands of guns to criminal gangs and that is to arm them. The question becomes to arm them for what purpose? Why were gangs in chicago ( Obama’s home turf ) armed as well?

My gut tells me that if all of the details of this insidious plot were to be made public today a number of people would be facing prison and the hangman’s noose.

The scope of lawlessness by our government increases exponentially by the day.
Increases by the very nature of its disregard for the Rule of Law.

You can count on one thing from these people who are involved in this tyranny, if it was I who committed these crimes, I would be sitting in a 6 x 6 concrete box for the rest of my natural life.

It is unquestionable, sure as the sun rises, laws are for the little people.
The ruling class is exempt from the law, and the consequences of breaching those laws. In truth, the ruling class does just that, it Rules. It makes the rules, enforces, or not, the rules, as it sees fit to its benefit first and last. When the president of this nation leads from this position of absolute power, all is subordinated to a system of decree and favoritism geared to protect like minded crooks and traitors.

A Constitutional Republic functioning under The Rule of Law does not operate this way. This my fellow Americans is the definition of tyranny.

It is people such as this that control most of our government. People who can not afford to be held accountable for what they are guilty of committing. Nor it is safe to say, are willing to give up the power and position they hold in this system of tyranny.

Well, the subpoena is a week old. Was there a deadline in it? What’s the next event? Holder fights it in court, gets a couple of continuances and sundry other extensions along the way, thus dragging the legal process out for another few months? God, I am ready for someone to come forward and SPILL.

Someone needs to knock Holder out, put him on a plane to Arizona and let one of those 9 county sheriffs there who have promised to ARREST him if he ever comes into there juristictions. Then let the FAMILY of agent Brian Terry decide punishment. My personal choice would be that Holder faces the same end that Brian Terry did.

Yeah, Holder can’t find out who authorized fast and furious, but he and his fellow scrotum sniffers can trace a bomb plot from the low level scum bags all the way to the Iranian head honcho. Yes he can, he’s the man, el hefe, the cola man can.

I think Holder and Obama should try to throw Hillary Clinton under the bus for most of this one. The genesis of Fast and Furious could have been a pitch from Newell in ATF to O’Reilly (State Department guy). The guns went to a foreign country (State Department call). Somebody kept the U.S. Embassy in Mexico out of the loop (State Department). It would deflect blame from the DOJ and White house, and hurt her as a potential challenger in 2012. I’d do it.

I wouldnt be surprised for one minute if this entire F/F fiasco was Hillarys idea. After all, isnt Holder an ex-Clinton appointee? Remember Marc Rich and the Peurto Rican terrorists? Who was he protecting there? Ooops-Hilldebeast. Obama is too stupid to come up with this, and Incompetano is just plain incompetent.

Bob,
pls use the correct vocabulary. “Casings” are what one uses to contain sausage ingredients. “Cases” are the home of the primer, powder and bullet in a metallic cartridge. God bless you for your work.

Easy. To undermine the 2nd amendment. After all, the anti-gun group the JOYCE(read Soros) foundation were HUGE supporters of BOTH the Clintons and Odolt. Odolt even made remarks to them in early 2009 about how the WH would have to “quietly” undermine the 2nd amendment, since guns rights advocates like the NRA and GOA were too strong. What better way to argue for more gun control than claim American guns were fueling the drug cartels in Mexico?

how four cabinet-level agencies could run a high risk, low chance of success operation without the White House approving and monitoring the operation;

Now, why on earth would the White House be informed of an operation that directly impacted relations of a sovereign foreign nation, was a direct violation of Mexican law, violated several international treaties on arms control and a direct violation of US export control regulations? Who would have thought they should inform the President they were directly undermining his Constitutional power to conduct foreign relations?

So, Obama’s regime can commit a felony in a foreign country and get away with it, but then go after a US manufacturer (Gibson Guitars) for committing a misdemeanor in a foreign country??? Makes a lot of sense…. The end justifies the means, go after a non-union shop with conservative ownership, and create a scheme to turn Americans against private gun ownership. Dictator Barry strikes again.

Barry had his enablers too-Melson seemed “HAPPY” with the increase in violenece , according to BATFE agents in Phoenix. US Atty Dennis Burke DELIBERATELY ignored requests from both BATFE agents and Joe Arpaios office to stop the gunwalking. We in America MUST remember, there are ENEMIES of freedom in America, and Barry is not the only one. People like Melson and Burke(former chief of staff under Janet Incompetano when she was governor of AZ-WHEN she went to DHS, she got Burke the job as US atty)are also enemies of America.

There was a BATFE policy change from the Bush era Gunwalker program to Fast and Furious under Obama. Under Bush the agency policy was to arrest straw purchasers before the guns left the country, under the Obama administration the policy changed to allow the guns to cross the borders. No one beneath the level of the White House is able to change the policy at a federal agency; that includes the Attorney General and all of his subordinates. Under our system of government policy is set at the White House – no where else. For example even if it had been a secret who changed NASA policy from “manned space flight” to “outreach to Muslims” we would have known that the policy change came from the White House – since nobody at NASA has the authority to change agency policy without direction from above.

Now all we have to do is figure out who at the White House changed BATFE policy, and we have the person responsible for Fast and Furious! I suspect it was Pierre the White House pastry chef — are there any other nominations? Perhaps the Butler did it?

theyALL knew about F/F-Obama,Hilldebeast, Incompetano, Holder. They could care less that Brian Terry was MURDERED. Even grenades WALKED across the border-the GRENADES used in the casino attacks several weeks ago(53 dead) were AMERICAN issue grenades. Walked over the border by a known arms dealer with the cartels. Dennis Burke(scumbag ex US atty and onetime COS for Janet Incompetano) REFUSED to arrest and prosecute the dealer.