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Huh? Shooting a mountain lion for sport is a little different from using a cow for food or clothing.

But you could have had a salad and knitted together some clothing out of leaves and bark. So you chose to kill that cow, just the same as LaRoche chose to overcompensate for his, sorry, I mean kill that lion. And away we go.

Huh? Shooting a mountain lion for sport is a little different from using a cow for food or clothing.

I'm not seeing it. Assuming it's a legal hunt, the state licenses the appropriate number of kills to keep the population of animals sustainable. Given the elimination of most other natural predators, if humans don't hunt, many, many species will suffer from over-population, and mass deaths from starvation/disease.

I'm not a hunter though I'm certainly no vegan either. I get that food and clothing that I use is often from once living things that were killed. With that said the whole killing for fun thing seems a little sick to me. I mean if you want to hunt for food, hell, go for it. But hunting just to say you killed something seems a little troubling.

I'm not seeing it. Assuming it's a legal hunt, the state licenses the appropriate number of kills to keep the population of animals sustainable. Given the elimination of most other natural predators, if humans don't hunt, many, many species will suffer from over-population, and mass deaths from starvation/disease.

Well, overpopulation of animals IS a problem (mostly because they create an imbalance in the ecosystem), primarily ,as you say, caused by elimination of predators. But he killed a mountain lion, that IS the predator. We need MORE mountain lions (and wolves, and bears, etc.) - they are the solution to overpopulation, not the problem.

I'm not a hunter though I'm certainly no vegan either. I get that food and clothing that I use is often from once living things that were killed. With that said the whole killing for fun thing seems a little sick to me. I mean if you want to hunt for food, hell, go for it. But hunting just to say you killed something seems a little troubling.

I think it could say something troubling about someone, but doesn't necessarily have to.

Most hunters I know always use the meat from their kills (or donate it). In our town, we have a dinner at the K of C every year for Mardi Gras which serves game that local hunters have killed. All of the hunters I know do it for the challenge of the hunt, and are perfectly normal, non-bloodthirsty people.

A year ago I read this book: The Man-Eaters of Kumaon. It was written by a man that was hired by the British government to track down and kill tigers that had become man eaters. Totally awesome. Hunting will never be the activity for me, but that has more to do with how cold and quiet and boring it is than the moral issues.

Well, overpopulation of animals IS a problem (mostly because they create an imbalance in the ecosystem), primarily ,as you say, caused by elimination of predators. But he killed a mountain lion, that IS the predator. We need MORE mountain lions (and wolves, and bears, etc.) - they are the solution to overpopulation, not the problem.

Again, I have to assume the state game commission knows what they're doing in setting the quota for tags.

I'm not a hunter though I'm certainly no vegan either. I get that food and clothing that I use is often from once living things that were killed. With that said the whole killing for fun thing seems a little sick to me. I mean if you want to hunt for food, hell, go for it. But hunting just to say you killed something seems a little troubling.

But see, that's the problem with making a story about a picture like this. I don't know if LaRoche is going to eat it or not, but you can google mountain lion recipes and get a decent amount of results. We don't know if LaRoche was trophy hunting, doing a canned hunt, or a had a tag from the state.

I look forward to the day of vat grown meat, so I can eat meat and be less hypocritical in my loathing for this sort of activity.

Still it is neither illegal nor hugely immoral. I find hunting predators to be distasteful (and as I said personally loathsome), but since I do eat meat and so on, so mostly I shrug, say it is not for me, and move on with my life.

I have no issue whatsoever with hunting. I myself have been on a lot of hunting trips up north and I have killed and cut a seal. I work with Inuit whose diet is still composed of 80% meet these days and I have many friends who hunt moose and deer in Southern Canada.

However, I do feel a malaise over trophy hunting. If you kill an animal, eat it or abstain.

If you really want to be indignant you should read about the fishing and hunting exploits of Ted Williams. That man put a severe dent in the population of wildlife of this planet and he did it mostly for sport.

Well, overpopulation of animals IS a problem (mostly because they create an imbalance in the ecosystem), primarily ,as you say, caused by elimination of predators. But he killed a mountain lion, that IS the predator. We need MORE mountain lions (and wolves, and bears, etc.) - they are the solution to overpopulation, not the problem.

Except that "solution" seems untenable in modern society. The classic example is with whitetail deer, which get along very nicely with people in suburbia, where wolves and mountain lions might not be welcomed. Where legal deer hunting is eliminated, fenders (plus poachers and occasional roaming dogs) take over.

Deermeat is my favorite among all red meat, but I'll admit to enjoying all parts of the hunt, though my feelings at the actual kill are much more of satisfaction at legally obtaining this resource than of any "thrill". Low fat, chemical free meat that caused no demands on our agriculture system - it's all good. Those who don't wish to hunt and/or who don't eat meat deserve to have their views respected, but when the small segment of that population seeks to demonize hunters (and I haven't really seen any of that on this thread), my respect tends to disappear.

McCoy: TW did his share of hunting, but fishing was one of his three true passions in life - the others being flying and hitting a baseball. I've never looked into how much of his catch was kept or released, and doubt that he put a truly significant dent (in the sense of causing a noticable decrease in any particular species) in wildlife populations. It's hard for any one man to do that; even Bill Cody had lots of fellow participants in slaughtering bison.

Except that "solution" seems untenable in modern society. The classic example is with whitetail deer, which get along very nicely with people in suburbia, where wolves and mountain lions might not be welcomed. Where legal deer hunting is eliminated, fenders (plus poachers and occasional roaming dogs) take over.

There's a bit of an elk population problem in Estes Park, Colorado where I lived for a while. The elk are so numerous in the absence of bears and other predators that they're literally a traffic nuisance, routinely clogging up the town's main drag (the aptly-named Elkhorn Drive) and the two roads leaving town to the east. Obviously there's been lots of discussion over how to deal with the critters - sterilization, hunting, relocation, etc. Of course I don't have any issues with hunting per se, any more than I have an issue with fighting per se, but I'm all about fairness. I think anyone should be able to hunt and kill an elk in Estes Park any time of the year, with the caveat that the only weapon they're allowed to use is a 2x4 board with no more than 3 nails in it. I think this provides a nice balance of sporting challenge and lethality while still giving the elk a chance to defend itself fairly. The town council was not amused with the proposal.

The classic example is with whitetail deer, which get along very nicely with people in suburbia

Like hell they do. Car accidents (and worse motorcycle accidents) involving deer are severe and frequent. Deer destroy crops and landscaping. They are in fact 6'+ tall 200+ pound horned animals that either in rut or through exposure to unarmed people can and will f you up.

Like hell they do. Car accidents (and worse motorcycle accidents) involving deer are severe and frequent. Deer destroy crops and landscaping. They are in fact 6'+ tall 200+ pound horned animals that either in rut or through exposure to unarmed people can and will f you up.

McCoy: TW did his share of hunting, but fishing was one of his three true passions in life - the others being flying and hitting a baseball. I've never looked into how much of his catch was kept or released, and doubt that he put a truly significant dent (in the sense of causing a noticable decrease in any particular species) in wildlife populations. It's hard for any one man to do that; even Bill Cody had lots of fellow participants in slaughtering bison.

As a bowhunter myself I respect the achievement. Lions, themselves the ultimate hunters, are very difficult to bag.

It is illegal to hunt them here in CA*, not because qualified biologists have determined that the population is at risk, but becuase of a ballot initiative a few years back, courtesy of our hugely dysfunctional initiative system. In parts of the state the deer population has crashed because the lion population has risen since hunting them is banned. Action/reaction, unintended consequences, etc.

*Save the occasional deprivation permit, which I'm told are nearly impossible for ranchers to secure.

When hunting a predator like this (or African lions and the like), how does the hunter ensure that he won't be attacked himself? Or is the risk part of the hunt?

It varies. Least risky is to be in a tree stand over a bait pile, which is very low risk, if any. Most risky is stalking on foot, which is very dangerous, and typically would only be done with a buddy or a professional guide backing you up with a firearm. Even with backup, stalking a lion to 20 or 30 yards takes more balls than I'll ever have.

typically would only be done with a buddy or a professional guide backing you up with a firearm

The Maasai are not impressed and do not want to sign up for your newsletter. Seriously though, yeah, pretty dangerous.

In parts of the state the deer population has crashed because the lion population has risen since hunting them is banned. Action/reaction, unintended consequences, etc.

Not an expert in ecosystems, but I believe most predator/prey pairs go through crash cycles fairly commonly. I don't think a deer population crash is all that unexpected. A Lion crash follows, and then the deer population rebounds - step repeat. Statis equilibriums are pretty rare, dynamic equilibria are much more common, but much harder to model and describe and so get short shrift.

“I’ve never been hunting in my life, so I don’t know what he sees in it and what they get out of it,” said Rizzo. “But it was an impressive mountain lion, and I’d like to think he shot the mountain lion because the mountain lion was gonna attack him. That’s how I’m playing it in my mind.”

“I hope Rochey’s lifting more than mountain lions this offseason,” he continued.

Hey genius, you signed him to a new contract and he's your player. Why don't you try talking to the guy and getting to know him a little better?

One of my employees is from Africa and in his younger years before he came to America he would hunt lions for food and money. Well, one day the lions chased him and his buddy up a tree where he stayed for 3 days before people went looking for him and found him. Unfortunately for him his buddy fell from the tree on the first day and was eaten by the lions. So he had to stay up there for 3 days while his buddy was getting eaten down below and then got to look at his carcass for another two days.

One of my employees is from Africa and in his younger years before he came to America he would hunt lions for food and money. Well, one day the lions chased him and his buddy up a tree where he stayed for 3 days before people went looking for him and found him. Unfortunately for him his buddy fell from the tree on the first day and was eaten by the lions. So he had to stay up there for 3 days while his buddy was getting eaten down below and then got to look at his carcass for another two days.

African lions are relatively easier to hunt than American ones because they are so confident and fearless. When they see, smell or hear you approaching, they typically stay put and don't bother to hide, or they come charging after you. OTOH American lions 99.99% of the time will quietly slip out of the area. That is why sighting of lions is so rare in CA and other states despite their growing numbers. Going after an African lion with a bow is extremely dangerous, far moreso than an American one.

Deer eat out of the same cornfields as we do in MN. That's hardly "chemical-free" and it takes a small bite out of the corn crop.

And given the juxtapoasition of corn availability and hunting season, the critters' chemical content is probably near its max when they're being reduced to possession. However, even when the corn is handy the deer eat a variety of foods, and compared to livestock which eat mainly human-prepared food (at least immediately prior to slaughter) and receive medications, the deer should be relatively clean even in corn country. Of course, the "chem-free" comment came from one who lives in a state that's 90% forested. YMMV

The prey-predator cycle can be messy when starving lions switch to sheep or other livestock. Predator-caused crashes of whitetail pops are uncommon, due to the deer's fecundity. Generally there are other factors involved, for instance in N.MN where wolves are involved and N.Maine where it's coyotes, severe winters are also limiting.

I remember the first time I encountered an eastern coyote when hiking alone. Peaceable towards humans, but a hellofalot bigger than the little fellas you get used to seeing everywhere out West. If they wanted to cause trouble, lord knows they could.

The classic example is with whitetail deer, which get along very nicely with people in suburbia, where wolves and mountain lions might not be welcomed.

My 12 year old boy bagged his first whitetail about 2 weeks ago on our lease near Lampasas, TX. There are so many in the area that on our way home from dinner one night, we counted 8 in people's yards just off the main drag in this very small town (population < 7000) eating the grass, shrubberies, and what have you, and that was just on the one road out of town that we were on.

She's going to make some damn fine sausage and jerky when we get her back in a few weeks.

It varies. Least risky is to be in a tree stand over a bait pile, which is very low risk, if any. Most risky is stalking on foot, which is very dangerous, and typically would only be done with a buddy or a professional guide backing you up with a firearm. Even with backup, stalking a lion to 20 or 30 yards takes more balls than I'll ever have.

This. My folks are retired in WY and they defintiely say the mountain lion is definitely to be feared due to their stalking nature. They are known to stalk man, who are often out hunting elk or deer. Outfitters that take people hunting for mountain lion typically and often travel mountainside in ATVs and other vehicles seeking tracks (usualy Nov-Feb) and then bring out the hounds to follow the tracks. It is a pretty expensive hunt, maybe not as much as big horn sheep, but defintiely $5-$8k for a week. I've probably spent 300 days in Wyoming and have never seen a mountain lion.

I remember the first time I encountered an eastern coyote when hiking alone. Peaceable towards humans, but a hellofalot bigger than the little fellas you get used to seeing everywhere out West. If they wanted to cause trouble, lord knows they could.

Genetic studies have confirmed that some wolf DNA entered the coyote population as it expanded east, though it's but a small part of the overall critter's genetics, and the eastern subspecies is something like 25% larger than its western cousin. Many canids can interbreed and produce viabnle, fertile offspring. There also have been coy-dog rumors, though the DNA is mostly lacking. One problem with the latter is that domestic dogs' ramdom estrus timing carries over to the offspring, such that the crossbreed females may come into heat at inopportune times, with pups born in midwinter, or late summer, or some other season that would severely reduce survival.

I've had as many as 6 deer in the backyard - just a relatively standard suburban subdivision of mostly .33 to .50 acre lots, perhaps a bit more wooded than most. There are reportedly more deer now than in the Colonial Era.

Tree stand over a bait pile...that's candy arse. The poor mountain lion doesn't even stand a chance. If you're hunting a predator, you should have to stalk it on the ground, get within 30 metres and try to finish the job. No way some stinking, noisy human gets anywhere near any a healthy predator.
Hunting for food, no problem. Hunting for sport where the odds are so stacked the hunted has no chance, sorry I think it stinks.