The Naked Truth

Documentary The Naked Truth traces the origins of modern religions back to stories from numerous ancient civilizations.

Due to the lack of science and facts, stories were created by our ancient ancestors in provide explanations to the amazing, bizarre, frightening, but natural wonders of the world.

Earthquakes, volcanoes, tornadoes, lightning, hurricanes, and other forces of nature could not be explained such a long time ago, so stories and tales were created by the human imagination to provide answers to these unexplainable natural occurrences.

Today, we know that Egyptian, Roman, Greek, and other mythology originated from man's imagination to explain the natural world, but are modern religions so different?

Are the similarities between Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, and other saviors and prophets mere coincidences? Or is there a clear and simple explanation that ties all modern religions together?

219 Comments / User Reviews

Roman Catholic's, Christianity, Mormonism, Jahovah witnessism, Islamic's, Budist's, all forms of Christianity(ie- Lutheren, Episcopalianism, Baptists these all have one thing in common- ( THEY ARE ALL FALSE RELIGIONS) False religion is the number one destroyer of the masses in the last day other than just blatent sin. False religion does not save!!!

The back and forth conversation between Connie and Charles B is just a wee bit nauseating. JS... We get it, you and several other disgraceful people on here are: lonely, bored, devout, late 40yr old, indoctrinated at a young age "Christians" -who propagate ideals of "Jesus" of "Nazareth", but only the version of him depicted as a white male. IF Jesus was real, then he would 1,000% be of middle-eastern decent. Then the same people who claim to be followers of a messiah who is supposed to have hailed from an ancient middle eastern area, are currently in the USA (quite disgustingly) engaged in the vilification of an entire culture of people from the middle east due to a difference in melanin and personal spiritual identifications of the (name) of god they choose to worship. You guys have to know that Jesus would never invite you to hangout on the weekends bc you frankly are hypocrites. Your bible specifically says God (Jesus's dad and awkwardly also himself) can't stand self-righteous hypocrites (pharisee). All the while said pharisee's conveniently cherry-pick what they want from the bible and ignore what they don't like.

Sucks for you guys bc I'm about to sh*t on your cherry tree.

Regardless of the epic's described in the Bible, the only "Naked Truth" that need to be exposed are the horrible "acts" that religion spells out for us in the old and new testaments. Here are just a few things that God/Jesus/the Bible showed obvious anger and hatred towards... liiiike:
-Wearing "clothing woven of two kinds of material"[Lev.19:19]
- Women's menstrual cycle [Lev. 15]
-Alive young male boys & women who aren't virgins(MARY) (adolescent girls can be kept for creepy ancient men though?)[Num. 31]
- Freedom from slavery [Lev. & Ephes.]
-Insects with legs that don't fly haha [Lev. is on some BS]
- Childbirth to a girl; nutrition or exercise [Deut. 28-32, & Exodus. 23]
- Girls who were raped staying alive (the man who raped her can live though)[Deut. 22]
- Eye contact [Matthew 5:28]
-Kids who had no control over their biological fathers being horrible men and leaving them and their mother [Deut. 23:2] AKA JESUS & HIS BROTHERS & SISTERS [Mark 6:3 & Matt. 13:55]
-Vasectomies & testicular cancer [Deut. 23:1]
-Strong & independent women who don't need a man [Tim. 2:11]
-Families in general [Matt. 10:35]
-Grandsons putting their passed out drunk naked grandpa in the house [Gen. 9]
-Normal food that doesn't involve human feces [Ezek:1:1-16]
-Foreskin-less, bloodless feet [Exodus. 4:24]
-Not committing blatant incest [Gen. 19]
-Tree's? [Matt. 21:18]
-Paying taxes like everyone else [Matt. 17]
-Pants when first meeting your new employee [Exodus 33:23]
-Children NOT getting mauled by bears [4 Kings 2:23-24]
-Not committing mass genocide [Like literally every book in the Bible is mass-murderous]
-Sparing your children from being sacrifices for God [Gen. 22 & also littered throughout the Bible]
-First born Egyptian babies who were COMPLETELY INNOCENT [Num. 16:41]
-Letting your disciples pay off bet debt with idk... anything but murder [Judges 14]
-People complaining about God killing them (spoiler: he then kills more people in spite)[Num. 16: 1-49]
-Job, as a person [The whole book of Job]
-Unicorns [Isaiah 34:7]
-EATING. ANYTHING. NORMAL. AT. ALL. AND. NOT. PEOPLE. OR. SPECIFICALLY. CHILDREN.
[2 Kings 6:29]
-Consensual sex- Bathesheba
-An unfortunate harvest [Matt. 3:10, 12]
-The likelihood of people made in the image of god getting into heaven [Matt. 7:13]
-Speaking coherently [Mark 4:11]
-Asking good, reasonable questions [Luke 1:20]
-Being crippled, even by birth, is a sin [John 5:14]

I could go on for hours...

People WORSHIP this book and the people in it and it's CHALK FULL with pedophilia, rape, murder, incest, weird random violent nonsense, child and human sacrifices, millennia of oppression, and unicorns.

How wonderful, I've just WASTED 39 minutes of my life listening to these characters BS me, on a documentary called Naked Truth. What naked truth is that? They're using the fictions from throughout the Bible and other 'holy' books to show the Naked Truth? These are the voices from the choir .... telling me that all this so-called truth is just more human fiction, it's the humans creating another 'god'.

What a great manipulation,into the worship of paganism,and the seduction to worship the devil and false christ,thank gododness and god ,the true door and corner stone is,is not what they want to project,prey for the truth of gods words,no better truth except learning it on your own.

This should be called Distorted Truth. Krishna was killed by a hunter who mistook him for a deer. And his mother already had 7 children, before he was born, with his father. They were married. All these "facts" shook my belief on the other "facts" provided by the documentary. So stopped watching it after 47 mins.

These guys proved exactly what the Bible is, open for interpretation. One can probably link the stories to anything you want and believe it to have meaning. I believe that the stories are metaphoric and are open to interpretation.

Interesting but the things they say regarding Buddhism is actually not correct. The Buddha was a mortal who worked out the cessation of human suffering through meditation. The myth of the Buddha's life represented in this doc seems to be totally made up, the fact that he was mortal and not a god is a very important aspect of the religion.

cool documentary.being a history major,yup.man based everyhing on the stars,not understanding,chemestry,physics,astronomy,"gods"lights,or "gods"sure.o unto others,as you would do unto yourselves,and go watch the bears on sunday,or take your kids to a mueseum,or park.just don't waste YOUR time...AND the "god" ole U.S.A.

This documentary looks very interesting and I will probably end up watching it at some point, but regrettably, I was turned off immediately by the use of masculine pronouns and terms to describe all of humanity. "Man's.." "his.."; 50% of the population possesses no penis, and the use of male words to describe everyone is offensive and outdated.

The use of 'man' as a generic term is offensive to men as well. As is the intense drive to dress us all in uniforms, deny our humanity and then blame us for everything; and then say we are free and have no right to play the victim. Do you realise your comment actually stems from a guy called Herbert Marcuse, who is using your indignation at 'pronouns' to keep the ailing Left alive from beyond the grave. I'd be more upset about that if I were you.

Jonas Namensen
- 12/01/2013 at 21:11

That´s such drivel.

Jim
- 08/15/2018 at 04:51

THIS is what turned you off most? You're joking, right?

todd portsmouth
- 05/06/2012 at 14:07

manfruss : as you have just watched the religions of world history built upon each other over - 1,000 's of years and 1,000 's of cultures. Some of these human cultures overlapped - some did not. That the general core dates, attributes, and storylines of the human/deiety - god/kings from related and UNRELATED cultures across the primitive human planet were woven of the same thread - , from whence came the ORIGINAL storyline material ? - The natural world and the vista above - - THE SKY . ! The sky was primitive man's internet. It told him everything he needed to know about anything that was important to him. If you cannot grasp that after watching this documentary then you need to keep researching the history of religion.

The purpose of religion is to unite people. If it becomes a cause of discord it should be abandoned.

That being said, these folk definitely hate religion. Hate for god is the new religion of the day. There is a problem here. Throwing out the baby with the bath water. All things that have human hands in them become corrupt and need renewal every now and then. Religion is no different. Once it becomes corrupt and problematic, it should be swept aside, just like a wayward government.

Here is a monkey wrench to this Documentary. The Baha'i Faith, has no clergy, doesn't interfere with your personal relationship with the faith. All it wants to bring about is the Unity of mankind, and end to war, suffering, and other problems that plague our world. It values independent investigation of the truth, and unity of science and religion.

The world will not heal and move forward without spiritual principles. Here's what Christianity teaches: LOVE. The rest is human interpretation. Jesus would not condone war, racism, sexism. He would not support a war on Islam or any other beliefs. Christianity taught "all are equal in the eyes of heaven". This tells me that Jesus would have accepted all people, and fought against injustice and stratification of the economy. As a matter of fact, he would have fought against the issues we see today, corporate greed, corrupt governments.

There is so much we need from religion. We just need to keep an open mind and accept science as much as religion. Science still doesn't know what really started to the universe... religion called it God, something unknowable.

Einstein said: "Science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind." So very true. Our world is morally bankrupt. I don't see science able to assist in that matter without spiritual principles. Just don't blindly believe what you read or hear. Investigate. The bible is nothing but metaphor to me, and worth looking at in that fashion.

Religion carries great wisdom, if you don't blind yourself to it by either hate of unquestioning love.

Fine. Throw all religion out the window. Have no greater authority than yourselves in the universe. It's ok to steal, covet your neighbor's wife, lie about your neighbor, kill him, hell, go ahead and eat your neighbor's children. We'll be right back to a 28-year life-span and gladiatorial games just like the Romans in no time. Thunderdome! Bring it on!
Whether you like it, or want to admit it, or not, Christian Philosophy protects you every day, keeps you and your children safe, enables you to live a long life and live without relative fear in this country. When everyone has embraced the teachings of the Ten Commandments and the eleventh, then will we blossom.

Incredibly blindsided. Firstly, you are confusing ethics with morals, and then you are are assuming that ethics and morals are instilled by supreme beings and demiurges. On the other hand, and since we were the ones who created the different gods and mythologies, we were the creators of ethics and our different cultures created their own morals. There is no need of any god for good to exist.

over the edge
- 04/10/2012 at 06:59

@David
are you suggesting that the bible is the original source of these ideas? are you claiming that before christian philosophy came North America the natives were killing each other,coveting their neighbors wife and so on and considered it fine? and while you bring it up where does it say in your bible you cannot eat children and if it isn't wrong according to the bible why don't we do it? have you read the bible? it is great for morals as long as you aren't a woman,minority,one of the slaves condoned by the bible, of a different faith, homosexual, tested by this god,never heard of the faith ,claimed to be a witch (true or not), question the church, a choir boy, a scientist ,,,,,,,,,, but other than that great religion.

Kateye70
- 08/09/2012 at 14:28

Not expecting a reply, and most of this has been challenged by others, but...the "ten commandments and the *eleventh*"??

What in the world is the "eleventh" commandment?

And, err, David, if you can't tell what is right or wrong all by yourself, you're a freaking psychopath (or sociopath, never can tell those two apart, lol).

Wolfusmutter
- 06/11/2013 at 20:12

that is the most s*upid thing i have ever readed this week.
if that would be the case, humanity would not have survived and moses would never lived but killed.
you are really really s*upid.
also you have no clue about history and ancient civilisations like sumer, akkad, babylon, maya etc.
read the codex of hammurapi that brought the law for humen way before your s*upidity existed.

Judith Jetson
- 03/07/2014 at 17:25

Do we really "need" someone to tell us those things are wrong? Really? Don't we eventually have to take responsibility for ourselves and our actions?

eyesofgod
- 04/08/2012 at 07:18

Religion, re-lig, to join with, to rejoin with the Divine, the Matrix of Consciousness or capital "R" Reality In Which we all (and everything) appear(s). Or, call it "God" if you like. We will always be involved in "religion" in such case, or the practice of communion with the very Ground of our Being (which is true religion). Nothing inherently wrong with that. What's wrong is as they describe in the video: the "gods" made up by the human mind, and all the crazy rules and such that we tend to invent regarding religion. We only feel we need to re-join because we feel separate from "God"--and even separate from each other (not unified, not one with each other). Practicing real God-Communion, we begin to relax into the Great Unity. This is what the Great saints and sages and Spiritual Masters do for us: show us the Way of this God-Communion. Make sense?

check out 33 mins into the film and try not to laugh hysterically!
weird mixed up recovering Mormon tries to explain the meaning of His Holiness' name by mistranslating it as 'Gods Lamb'!!! He uses a Celtic language to translate Dalai (annoyingly mispronouncing it as Dally) into God and because Lama sounds a bit like lamb and also a llama is a bit like a lamb, then Lama must mean lamb!!! (uncontrollable laughter).
just to clarify...
Dalai means OCEAN in Mongolian, as in 'OCEAN OF WISDOM'
and Lama (Sanskrit) translates as GURU or TEACHER
therefore Dalai Lama can be translated as 'TEACHER OF WISDOM' or 'TEACHER WHOSE WISDOM IS DEEP AS THE OCEAN'
The title refers to the extent of the lama's wisdom; it was first bestowed by the Mongolian ruler Altan Khan upon the 3rd Dalai Lama (who was also the first) and is now applied to every incarnation in the lineage.

While the concept and the intentions of this documenatry are commendable, its flaws can clearly be seen regarding Krishna and Gautama Buddha. Anyone who knows bit baout Hinduism and Buddha would agree wiith me. It would have been more powerful if few facts were confirmed before publishing.

A good match for this documentary is "Life After Life" also on this site. After watching "Life After Life" then go to YouTube and do a search for "Previous Lives of Children".

There is emerging a gradual body of information worldwide that our world exists in five dimensions. Three dimensions for space. Fourth dimension is time. And the fifth dimension is the "Spirit Dimension". I think of the "Spirit Dimension" as the software that runs the universe and sentient life.

The "Previous Lives of Children" focuses on stories from around the world where children are born with memories from a previous life. These stories have been researched and found to be true.

Meaning that human sentient memories can be stored outside of the human body in the fifth dimension = "Spirit Dimension".

The documentary "Life After Life" focuses on the aspects of the "Spirit Dimension" and how it interacts with the dimensions we live in. The rules of space, distance and time are very different in the "Spirit Dimension" and it is very interesting.

This documentary "The Naked Truth" is excellent at explaining the evolution of all modern day religions from ancient Egyptian roots.

For the longest time I have been wondering why humans evolved a religious center in their brain. What purpose does this religious center fulfill?

If the consciousness and self awareness of human beings is dependent on another dimension, the fifth dimension, the "Spirit Dimension" then the evolution of this area of the brain makes complete sense.

Human beings exist as human beings because our brains are wired into this fifth dimension of the universe. The "Spirit Universe" represents the software that runs our bodies and has residence in our brains. Our brains that are in essence biological quantum computers that can bridge the gap between the 3 dimensions we live in and the "Spirit Dimension" where the "Life Force" resides.

This is why religion is so important to human beings. Unknowingly we are aware of this fifth dimension, the "Spirit Dimension".

Religion has evolved to help the human race explain this connection that makes them aware and conscious.

Over time the concept of religion has been manipulated and changed and "The Naked Truth" explains how this has happened from its original roots.

Great factual doco, well worth the time to watch.
Those that disagree or are unsure should check the facts out themselves.
Blind faith of the ignorant got us into this mess. Now in the information age we are finally free to examine debate and learn for ourselves.
Great URL Michael.
Someone who can think for himself at last...wot a novelty!
Some other great person once said "Thers is No god but Man".
I am ready for this world without religion, bring it on!

i was reading the comments on the top and they were all heavily invested in religious talks.
i skip down to 160ish and people talking about julian assange.
interesting fact that. i had myself a little LOL moment. happy new year to all.

@ Everyone
LMAO while I was writing Charles I just realized what all the rucus is in the other room. UNcle Eddy ( Gary's Brother ) both over 65 are decorating Gary's Charlie Brown tree. Hilarious !!!!! Fric and Frac = Chich and Chong
Abbott and Costello .......Imagine it and you can see and hear them two old men LMAO

@ Charles If you Let Vlatko give me your personal E-mail addy.( Poor Vlatko I am forever asking favors. I hope someday I return them all and more :-) )

I would love to connect with you charles so I can mail you some X-mas stuff for your Kids after the season you know how things are on sale for pennies on the dollar. I can mail a box of stuff that can be used for a belated Christmas or just be on hand for next year.

It would be neat for us to be able to share like that. I can get a small fake tree and decor and some Holiday wrap all in a box for under &20.00 Please let us do that.
I will be sure to remember to leave Santa Claus stuff out and keep it Chrstian for you :-)

You can trust me with your info. Vlatko helped me link with others before and they have not complained. :-)

Ps Charles did you see the new Doc about Satan and the one about Angels? I keep watching them over and over.

Merry Christmas Connie! I haven't had a real Christmas Tree for years living in Asia. I miss that. Except for church, we haven't done anything for Christmas either for years (no trees, gifts, or decorations) as it's so expensive and we're always "in transit" somewhere in the world. I also forgot to read the Christmas story to the family! How neglectful of me as the head of the family. I need to do that in the morning as it will still be Christmas day in the U.S.A. when we get up tomorrow for church. Thank you for the inspiration to dig deeper this Christmas season.

Merry Christmas to those who celebrate Christmas!
Greetings and HAppy Holidays to Vlatko and all others.

For Uncle Eddys sake we are celebrating Christmas as a last minute thought.
It was such a last minute thought that I did not make the stores in time to get anything from the market to make the Christmas meal that we planned LOL.
However we are fortunate enough to have plenty of food from the freezer to make most anything, except the roasted chicken we had all agreed was our choice meat . so we are having Roast Beef with the trimmings LOL.
I have not celebrated Christmas in many years and it was very hard to get the swing of it. We had to fake it to get started. Gary went to our woods and cut down his first Holiday tree, Let me say “Charlie Brown” Has done better . He chose a Hemlock that was too big! Hardly any branches and what it did have was sticking out across the room. The tree has about 6 branches and yet it is taller than the ceiling and nearly covers the room. we have to duck under it to get into the living room. LOL

We did get to the dollar store in time to buy some decorations and lights. It wont take more than we bought for sure. i think the 12 bulbs will be more than enough to fill the tree. I bet one set of lights will be too much LOL
Any how since we got tired and will decorate the tree when we awake today.
I am missing one thing to make a Christmas today. I Just cannot get into it very deeply without My TDF Films Family.

We are together most everyday connected to thoughts and filling each other with parts of ourselves learning and growing together. I just can’t enjoy any Holiday or festivity without sharing it with my TDF family. So with all due Respect for those who are celebrating and those who are not HAve a Wonderfull HAppy DAy and Know you are in my Heart and thoughts.

(((( Hugs to all )))) Connie
A double post on two docs so I could reach everyone :-)

I agree - absolutely. Interesting to see that assange got bail about 3 hours ago - but he has had to surrender his passport and wear electronic tag - so there is no chance of him leaving Uk - interesting slant on things - im very interested in the pregression of this - your points are very valid - i really understand what you are saying RV & Charles - Sid

@Sid; We would be arguing for the same end result but from conflicting angles on this so it may be best we just let it go. My take on Assange is based on the fact that a crusader for the truth would simply put all of the information into public domain and not trickle it out for attention and for use in bartering himself out of trouble. As to our media; Any one who is not aware that all media left and right is a load of bs at this point is unworthy of my notice. There are no journalists let alone investigative journalists in media today. There are only pretty faces and talking heads reading lies from a teleprompter for unearned fame. In reference to what Pilger said; I would not say he is absolutely right. I think that the media has been manipulated even longer in a sense. Back in WWII the movie indusrty and TV and Radio pushed pro government propaganda 24/7 even as far as the "Buy Bonds" commercials. Followed by the "drop and cover" of the cold war and then the above mentioned examples you provive. Like I said if the right people would pay the price for the info that is revealed I would be all for it. It will not be those people though but innocent young men and women sent off to fight for petty grievances of megalomaniacs.

A charge of "Sex when you're asleep!" Surely not, as any normal person not in a drug or alcohol induced coma would wake up! If she fell sleep after they started then that's a different matter. I'm ASSUMING they had agreed upon such acts previously.

I may not like what he did leaking all that information (I wish he had leaked info about Obama's birth cirtificate instead), but the charges in Sweden seem a bit thin at best. I bet he does get shipped to the U.S. for some kind of trial.

@ To my fellow doc watchers,I’m home.
Careful …..I would rather remind you before the Boss sees these posts about Assange. Unless I missed something The topic is way off the Doc and The Boss has obviously been extremely tolerant by letting us beat the religious issues.

No! I am not being goody two shoes, its too late for that lol cause you all have seen my Horns . I just want to spare yous the morning repremand.

RV - I was probably a little hasty there - what I was intersted in was what you thought of the Docmentary - more then the actual situation of Julian Assange. I am hopeful and oprimistic that Justice will prevail in the charges he may face.

In Pilgers documentary, he indicted both the USA & the UK jounalists for allowing themselves to be manipulated by Governments - which lead to mis-reporting & ignoring every Global conflict - probably since WW2...Pilger highlighted that (most) Politians convince themselves that they are acting within a 'moral framework' when films and testimonies exposed by Assange, clearly show they are not.
This is the synopsis on the doc. Fran Unsworth (of BBC) and David Mannion (ITV) both failed to defend themselves against Pilgers allegations -
Carne Ross (United Nations) said that the Foreign office KNEW that Iraq had no weapons - back in 1997 - but kept this fact quiet so as to keep the journalists 'in check' - they gave perks to those that 'toed the line' and 'froze-out' those who asked the awkward questions - thus enabling a 'natural selecion' entirely controlled by them (the Government)
see Reasons, the government controlled everything that was publicised - thus us public were being 'hoodwinked' into seeing and believing only what the governemnt wanted us to see.
we all RELY on investigative jounrlism
- we need it to be honest, but due to the goverments omnipotence, they (jounalists) are seduced by 'myopis mashismo'! and they conveniently forget any sense of history or loyalty - by this situation.
Assange was/is instrumental in exposing this travesty of justice and i think he is very very brave - for doing what is morally right.
anyway thats just my take on it - correct me if I am wrong? - I am gathering evidence as we speak - i have yet to have an opinion - but something smells fishy - and it aint Julian assange (i dont think)
thanks for listening - Sid

@ RV
hello! - Assange has not been charged with rape RV - he has not been charged with anything at all ......they are trying to find a charge to nail on him.....(excuse the religious pun) but are we singing from the same Hymn sheet here?
I think you will find that assange is NO friend of the Government - he is exposing governement 'cover-ups' and thats got to be more honest than letting them get away with murder - surely?
have you studied this story - it seems to be as though you are not fully aware of the FACTS - im not taking sides - I am merely stating facts. you seem to be putting a very negative stance on something you (appear) to know very little about.
(said with respect Reasons Voice)
Sid

I'll jump in on the Assange issue. I have expressed my religious sentiments enough I think. I believe that Assange is the perfect picture of the self centered self indulgent modern man. He does whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to and when threatened with punnishment he blackmails the world with WWIII. Any sociopath that would leverage documentation that could ruin relations between entire nations against being tried for Rape is no hero. He could care less about the truth. His motivation is entirely selfish. Do I think it is ridiculous that so much dirt can be gathered in so little time? Yes. Am I surprised? No. This ego maniac has watched too many spy movies for his own good. Where the credits roll and we never see that the "top secret" document our "hero" stole and released for the greater good of man, Leads to an epic war where hundreds of thousands of innocents loose their lives. Our polititians deserve to have light shown on their back room dealings but sadly they will not be the ones to suffer for their wrong doing. It will be the next 2 generations of young men and women who bleed for the petty intrigues of a disconnected government.

@ achems
yes your right - i realise my mistake when i re -read it i meant to say £200K - (i forgot the 'K') - my mistake Achems sorry
but whats your take on it? id be interested in what you think? also Reasons Voice, Waldo and the others - 'pitch in y'all!
Sid

@ Connie - oh hahahahaha i think you are jerry springer in drag? - you make me rock with laughter.
Achems? what is your opinion of the Julian Assange saga? id like to know what you think! (and everyone else really)
thanks ev1 from sid x

"Talk about plagiarism’s between religion and all the anthropomorphizing with astrology and of the antiquities."

@Connie~
I think he's saying there is much uncredited sharing between various religions as they evolve... sort of like cross-pollination.
With the other phrase, I think, he's suggesting that mankind's ancient way of knowing the stars emerged from man's knowledge of himself, although overlayed with religious mythology, and then projected onto a system called "astrology".
But...who knows... I can't say for sure.

siddartha guatama
- 12/15/2010 at 14:23

@ Connie
- of course im still talking to you!! - I love your posts they brighten up my day! - I agree with everything (almost) that you say - especially the part where you said the God can (if he exists) be in any form - be it siddartha, mohammed or The One, Brahman (33000 manifestations) etc etc - it does not matter to me because the goodness comes (like you said) through my head - from who knows where!
we are all the same inside, i think!

@ Charles - yes Charles - like connie I was so happy to see you writing from your heart and your head, I read every word and relished it! - can we expect more of the REAL charles? its much more 'user friendly' than the bible quotes! (enough said) I have enormous respect for you Charles - thats the truth! -
regarding Assange - I would LOVE for you to see that John Pilger doc - (The war we do not see) I saw it last night - and as the credits rolled at the end, I found myself sitting in stunned silence for ages - I was speechless and mortified - I know it was true because of the raw footage and the bare honesty.
I have more access to 'freedom of information' than America - & I am beginning to notice how 'hoodwinked' the american people are - its a sad state of affairs because americans are a GOOD bunch of people - some of the best in the world, but they are terribly brainwashed with propaganda (sp)
Assange was arrested by order of sweden (but I think USA instigated it) whilst he was in London - he was jailed pending a bail hearing, he got bail (which was set at £200 CASH) and was promptly rearrested pending extradition to sweden to face charges that have not yet been ascertained!
Its a 'given' that if he gets extrdited he will be sent to America to face charges - the charges have yet to be decided!
he is accused of (initially) rape - but that was dropped so then they tried pinning sex without a condom on him - thats all the law would allow, its not been officially charged yet because they are trying to find a way to 'nail' this poor man - they are even considering charging him with unlawfu; intercourse because he had sex with his girlfriend (of the time) whilst she was asleep!
thats how WEAK the case is ! - its hardly likely he has HIV - if he did - American Government want his head on a stake I believe!
why?...because he co-founded 'wikileaks' you know all about that dont you?
anyway he does not want to leave UK - for obvious reasons, you see, Sweden has agreements with USA - and they would hand him over to USA for (god only knows what punishment would beset him) so he remains in UK - I dont know anymore - Im watching closely though because our entire 'freedom of speech' (especially via the Internet) relies heavily on this man being given JUSTICE and his FREDDOM back
its outrageous - but he has only exposed the atrocities that everyone else covers up - he is an ICON - (he has so much support in UK ) -everybody - everybody is supporting him
he is NO rapist - he is a scapegoat for the 'Kangeroo Court' justice system
check out John Pilger google Julian Assange too - there is a preview of the doc on utube -("The War we dont know") I hope Vlatko gets hold of it - it will change the way you look at the world, charles, I guarantee it!
- thanks for giving me the opportunity to speak freely here Vlatko -on behalf of FREEDOM OF KNOWLEDGE - and FREEDOM of SPEECH
thank you Vlatko
stop press - looks like the Judge may not allow him bail pending the extrdition hearing because he may 'disappear' - hmmmm

Actually feel sorry for religee's and their religious guilt trips, did I mention fear? Never met more scared people than the religee's, if they are not looking for their demons and devils lurking in dark places, or under there beds, maybe monsters in the closet?

Then they have to pray and give allegiance to their invisible entity in their "minds" almost every nano-second for fear of reprisals.

Actually watched this doc. nothing new for me, it has exact parallels to the Zeitgeist movie.

Talk about plagiarism's between religion and all the anthropomorphizing with astrology and of the antiquities.

Again I say, as I have always said, religion is nothing more than the worship of the sun, and procuring religious epiphanies by the ingesting of "Amanita Muscaria" the "Mana" from heaven?

Well I was on a E- Ride too, Charles touched my heart too mostly though cause he opened up his heart and took a chance in getting in trouble and what the guys might think. Esp.from The Frankenstein Scientists :-)
But I couldn't just agree cause I am still stuck on "Amen" as its origin is refering to "Aman" the (Sun God) Worshipers.Plus I didnt know which I wanted to feel Laughter or anger cause Charles was praying for me to have wisdom and insight. Well does that mean I sound pretty stupid to him ? Well from my posts I would have to agree LOL esp. if you didnt know me. And as far as asking for Insight, I don't know anyone who is as intuitive as I have been in the last two years. I mean I know when someone is coming and when the phone rings and when to call someone and why etc...Its been a great ride so far....
I am wondering if you guys ever read some of my other posts.. I am not confused about religion as you might think. Gary and I are writing books together and we are purposely studying all religions and origins. We started two years ago. I must say this naked Truth comment section alone could make a wonderful fast book about different viewpoints of religion and a add these to other Doc posts and i have an instant book. I copied the [posts to take to rome with me and the pages were more than 3/4 inch thick. I figure the only way I can recover the ink costs now is to write a book holy mackeral.

And my emotions going out to Sid who is hurting and confused over the whole View of different religions.And I think her biggest Guilt is not from Charles but from her past upbringing which is hard to ever truly leave of the orthordox Christian religion.
I wanted to say her guilt is with Jesus not Charles.

And me .. I think I have a great relationship with God. But I am one who likes to dance to my own drum beat and I have to know how everything works and why. I am not one to follow any one too long or anything. I only hang out long eneough to learn enough to take my own path. Religion is no different than anything else in my life. I might get confused if I don't keep my objective but once I regain it I am fine.Just cause I am searching and seeking answers does not mean I am Lost in the wilderness... In my view when you stop looking is when your lost... Another way of saying it is I feel very comfortable and content in my Spirituality. I am not lost or in need that I am seeking answers... I am just dismantling the clock, so I can se how the clock ticks.

I want to see the Naked Truth myself, I don't want to see it with Man Made clothes on it and be told what color it is or when to wear what and how.
Its like this..... Who cares what we call God or Jesus ????? Call him Big Budha call him Allah call him Jehovah what ever you want to call him he is still your Consciouness.
He talks to your cerebrum not in your ears..
He doesn't call us on the phone to talk.. He talks in your head in your Sub Conscious brain parts.

Thats where we obey that voice or don't. If we are supposed to pay the electric bill and want to buy Candy its the subconscious mind that we obey or dont. Same with God issues.

I think any form or entity that we adhear to in order to accomplish that is right..

Sid: Well enough said. It's ultimately between you and God. I just have the understanding that except through faith in Christ, there is no other way to God. Nothing necessarily personal to you only. :-)

Where are you if you're not in the U.S.A.?

I was also wondering about the charges against Assange. Do you really think the charges are "trumped up?" I read the charge "sex without a condom" in an article also, but how is that a sex crime let alone "rape" unless he's like HIV positive and didn't tell his partner? Most people wouldn't even dig deep enough to catch that little oddity. They just read the headlines and assume his a rapist. Do you know PRECISELY what he's accused of and how and why and by whom? Just curious. I would think the feds if they wanted to take him out, would just take him out (like dead) without going though a farce trial in Sweden.

Internet Explorer is not working on my computer. I had to access through Firefox. I might have a virus (again). That's really off topic, but if I just cease to comment before I leave on the 30th for a long long time to a warm sunny place, then that might be a reason.

Connie: Been there, done that (this morning). :-)

You mentioned "Rome" in your post. As in Italy? Or as in Alaska? In fact there is a Rome on every continent except Antarctica. I've been to Paris. Super boring. It's right next to Booneville on the map if you can find it.

goodmorning everyone!
Ive had a good sleep and a good think. .....then I came here (topdocs) I cried at Chales prayer I really did - but within 5 minutes I was rolling around with laughter as connies words bounced off the screen - I am on an emotional roller coaster but its a good feeling!
Charles - I agree with you when you say 'I dont want relgion to make us feel guilty' - because thats the VERY reason for my upset! (and why I am so cross with you)
- you see, you are making me feel guilty, and I dont feel as though I am guilty of anything bad ....I have done absolutely nothing wrong, so why am I 'lacking' some 'higher vision' in your eyes Charles?
you also say that you want people to be 'hungry for God' - well - doesn't my inquisitiveness count for anything? - I mean I have been studying Relgion (per say) for donkeys years, and I still am! - so, just because I have found my path, does that mean I am 'lacking' your wisdom Charles?

Last night I saw a HARROWING documentary - it was hosted by John Pilger and was called 'The War We Dont See' - if I can ask Vlatko to try and obtain this for us to see, I think it will put all our little arguments into perspective. Julian Assange is in this Doc - he is the co - founder of Wikileaks....It really is a thought provoking Documentary. I dont live in America, and, after seeing this I am speechless at what the Americans are capable of. Julian Assange is an Australian who has 'no fixed abode' got political reasons. watch out for him - hes huge - but, unfortunately, he is being held in prison on trumped-up rape charges, which as (as of now) completely unfounded. Its is the tip of the iceberg. i am devastated by whats happening in the World today.
Sorry to go 'off topic' but - I think this documentary is called 'The naked truth' - and so I am only telling the naked truth - freedom of speech will be gagged if Julian Assange gets extradited back to Sweden - because Sweden will send him to USA - where he will be punished (I dread to think how) - for Wikileaks (but under the charge of sex without a condom ffs!!) - and Wikileaks in only telling the TRUTH - the NAKED TRUTH.
I will get off my soapbox now - thanks for listening Sid x

Ok @ Anyone feel like they just read the narrative for the Jerry Springer show?

I say we take a long pause and get some sex then some sleepthen more and sex and then the only thing we can do after that is :
sit down...
bend our head to our knees
Spread our knees apart..
Then kiss the part touching the chair Goodbye.

Rarely (if ever) have I prayed on Topdocs, but perhaps just this onece Vlatko can overlook it so you can "know my heart" . . . "Lord, you know our hearts and every weakness. Father, I ask for peace of mind and a quiet understanding spirit for Sid and wisdom and insight for Connie and compassion for RV. Make Yourself real to them and may they not be troubled in heart except to be moved to the desire to know and understand you deeper. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen."

Sid: We all get upset sometimes. You haven't even scratched the surface of some of the things people have said to me on Topdocs. "Reb" was my all-time most irritating person on Earth for a while. "Troll!" was the word that popped into my mind every time I read his remarks! I even had a person threaten to beat me in front of my kids! A bit scary as that was over a misinterpred joke, and not even over religion.

I don't like religion when it makes people feel "guilty" but I do want people to feel "hungry" for God.

Ok. True story time. I'll go out on a limb, since most everyone has here, and tell you a little bit about my story. When I was 18, I had just started Bible college and I was invited to a homechurch meeting where a "prophet" was supposed to be speaking. I now know that a "prophet" is just someone that can hear God's voice and speak what he or she feels God wants someone to know, either personally or in a sermon.

Anyway, I didn't want to be seen as I was sure he'd tell everyone all my secret stuggles and sin so I was hiding in the back. He came back and found me and looked right at me and quoted a prayer I had prayed privately to God at home on my bed where I asked God, "God, why am I soooo different?" I had wondered "Am I really a child of God? Or do I belong to another?" He then on to say that I was God's chosen vessel for ministry and that I didn't belong to another (the Devil) and my words would not be heavy on the people of God but bring healing. My only instruction was that I was to "eat" the Word of God and that it would come out with wisdom when and where it was needed.

It really changed my life, and I never looked back in God's service, nor doubted my "calling". However when I was 21, I was turned down for "ordination" in my dinomination for "lack of passion" and it devistated me. I've never tried again even though I do church work still today, and even preach now in my local church, but I'm not ordained and probably couldn't make it this late in life. Maybe.

But, I said all that to say this . . . . if we give up on God or turn our hearts away from His calling because of life's hardships, then truly we've missed the point. My life is disappointing to me in some ways as I had daydreams of not being a baseball player or an astronaut, but being Billy Graham when I was 18 and 19. How lame is that for a teenager! Where I wanted to be extraordinary for the kingdom of God, I'm now middle aged and extra ordinary indeed. Am I happy? Yes. Most of the time. Am I satisfied? Hardly!

Nonetheless, I know that God loves me and that He is indeed the Way the Truth and the Life and I will follow Him until my dying breath. I just want to help as many people in as many places in as many ways as I can while I still can.

Reason's Voice things I'm judgemental, but that's not my heart at all; I'm tender-hearted. But faith and righteousness IS very important.

So, now you know the rest of the story as Paul Harvey used to say. That's why I do what I do and say what I say -- It's out of the desire to tell those that I perceive as being in jeopardy that it's not too late to turn back to God.

yes i really am mad as a meat axe right now! - i really am crybibn my eyes out i cant see to type - why is this - i am not a bad peron - i dont know why i keep say ing this - i just feel angry with god somjetimes - but i know he is not angry with me]
and that frustrates me
i like where i am i feel safe here
but i respect you all so much - i really am struggline now good byr=e sid x

Sid: It sounds like you've had a rough go at it in life. I'm sorry for your sister, and I'm sorry if those called "Christian" have not met your needs in a way that was helpful to you, but I'm human, Connie is human, you're human, Razor's human, Reason's Voice is human and humans bumble things up a good deal of the time. That's the very reason why we DO need God's help.

Sid, I truly truly TRULY believe in God, and the goodness of God. Last week I perhaps had one of my most dispondent moments for a long time if ever, and I told God, "Lord, I'm angry with you about this situation." That's something I've never done before. But later I calmly remember a story from the Bible where those that followed after Jesus after he fed the multitudes with just a few fish and bread then became offended by what he had said or did (calling Himself the Bread from Heaven). They left Him (many of them did). Jesus then asked the 12 disciples, "Do you plan to leave me too?" and they said, "Lord, where can we go as only you hold the words of life." (paraphrased).

Sid, if you've been disappointed with people and churches, and me, then fine. Maybe rightfully so (or not so rightfully so). But, nonetheless, people aren't where our eyes are meant to be focused on. We should focus our eyes on God and Christ Jesus. No other person's opinion really matters. If you are pleasing in the eyes of God, then you will have peace of mind; until then, you will not, no matter where you look or for how long you search.

It sounds like you've been running here and there and not finding answers for any of your questions. God is trustworthy; talk to Him. Ask Him directly about this situation and any other thing you'd like to know.

You asked about "miracles" also. Yes, I've seen miracles happen; people healed and situations resolved quite miraculously, but the greatest "miracle" of all is spiritual salvation when all the "blackness" of sin is finally washed away by Christ's merciful presence.

You're talked a lot about church, but nearly none at all about God Himself. That leads me to ponder if anyone has ever truly told you how to become "a child of God." The word "Christian" can be overused by even those that don't really fit the title, but "child ofGod" is very personal and real.

From the heart now, Sid, Christianity is about a right relationship with God. You say you feel "freedom" now, but I think down deep you're still "empty" as an eggshell. This is one of the most simple salvation prayers you can pray: "Jesus, forgive me of all that I've done wrong. I accept your gift of life that you have for me. I turn from the ways of my past and ask for you to help me in the future. Change my heart. Make Yourself real to me and help me live for You both now and always. Amen."

Try it, mean it, and God will not turn away such a heart as that, but make Himself real to you.

lol - I am doing it Connie! - I am doing it I swear to you! -the worms are fit and wriggling around! I swear they are smiling at me! please Connie - please dont worry about me or my family or my worms in my garden(!) we are all very happy.....its all rosy posy
Ive never been more at peace - I wish everyone felt the same! - I only told of my past in order to clarify my religious stance! - I really wish I had not said anything at all now - I regret opening my big nouth! ;-))) Sid x

One more thought for what its worth.
When I met you I was very harsh on those people with sexuality problems from the sex Hospital Doc.

It was never my nature before to be so intolerant . But I had been reading alot of News I had subscribed to several online news programs and they were plastered with sexual crimes and having left home also at an early age starting around 12. I had been pushed into the world too early and was raped several times . On top of the abuse at home that I fled from it is a wonder how I survived. I know it was because of my faith and my promise = my vow that I would learn of every pain so I could help others.
Somehow I could get back on my feet by chalking it up as another lesson and sticking even closer to God as my refuge.
The woods and trees were my santuary. I would climbed the trees and sit for hours and imagine the limbs of the trees as Gods arms holding me. He even made a cross in the trees when I was at home the last couple years we lived on a huge clift and down below was the tree tops of the large maples and within the tree tops was an empty space in the shape of a cross. I understood it as my sign that he was with me. and the Limbs of the trees came alive with love and comfort for me.
So much Love... I could survive..

So anyhow reading all those sex crimes and watching people with sex problems hurting so many others was too personal for me and caused me to relive my pain.I had already just prior to the Sex Hospital Doc got an inclination to get off the internet and stop watching that negative stuff for It was controlling me. But I didnt! In my mind I made an excuse that I needed to be tough and stand up against it.

What I actually was doing was letting my pain and experience control me and the way I was acting.
Then you come along reminding me with your Loving Story of how someone carelessly hurt your garden and Your worms and instead of trying to force them who didnt care what they had done you simply went to work with your conscious and did the right thing trying to fix it.
All by yourself , you asted upon what was what you thought was your job and your own personal plight and diligently worked . It all was a sincere and lone act of love.

It was something that came from within and became your own personal conviction.

Thats when you woke me up with your Love and reminded me to tend my own garden and not to look at what others did but what I could do. and reminded me that my work is not forcing others to heal but to carry my owm dirt and heal my own worms.

So I hope... You see the moral of the story is : That what you did for me could be what I need to give back to you.The same story.... Pick up your own dirt and heal those worms :-)

How about starting with Attitude of Grattitude that wroks for me most of the time.

How about changing the things around that are painful into Gratefullness that because you have experienced those things you are so grateful to be where you are now in your Spiritual growth.

I once wrote a letter to someone who I did not want to sound like I was a pity thing yet I needed to tell the truth . So I said because of my Fathers cruelty I learned Love.

Because of my Fathers selfishness I was Blessed to learn giving. etc...

I know Sid don't bother telling me how unperfect at that I am... Just say ok ! And get back on top of it otherwise I will find you and ticlke you till you wet your pants laughing ok !!! Just do as I say :-) :-) :-) Not as I do. :-)

@ Sid,
I am not sure where to start and I am afraid I cannot think of anyway except with straight arrows and I sincerely hope they do not thrust any serious injury.

1.) your words to Charles have sounded to me and I guess others too , to have come very strongly in fact too strongly for the Loving person you are esp. for one who has found Inner Peace from meditative states of consciousness and understanding. I could not put my finger on it and so I have been reframing from direct conversationand have been sitting back listening. Esp. since I had already brought it to your attention and yet your anger has heightened.

Please let me say at this point you are not wrong to feel whatever you feel or think. That is each persons right and process of learning. you helped me get back on path when I was looking at so much negativity. My aim is to help you find your peace again as you did for me.In no way am I scolding or pointing fingers.

In my eyes I see you looking at the pain again and by doing so you are trying to force a horse to drink.

I am sure you agree that a spiritual Journey for each of us must be traveled on our own coarse and pace. But because you are looking at your pain you are trying to force Charles off his own path away from where you felt pain.

Charles seems very content and comfortable where he is. He is even willing to understand and listen to our paths and even seems to be less forcing then we are.

I am wondering something here? I thought the Buddist believed in reincarnation? and the purpose of that is supposed to be so each individual can find his own Spirituality and so keep reincarnating until he gets it right? If so then why should we try to force Charles into a self realization that we think he should be? Isnt he suppose to find his Destinational Journey on his own?

Have you already by now seen that your pain is creating a dis harmony with anothers Spirtual path and actually blocking someones growth?

Something I have learned and struggled with myself is pain and how it causes stumbling blocks. And that it we tend to have a nature of never letting go.

As with many things I see in life our biggest need is not what we need to find , but what we need to lose.

I think if we could learn to lose things we would of found that of which we seek we already had.

I too have to remember that when we try to help someone sometimes we are butting our business into someone elses growth.

I think you would agree our first and main Job is to find our own Spirtual Journey and that alone is how we share and teach others.

When we struggle or cause confliction we are off our Spirtual path. EVen if we thought it was for good use and helping. Instead we are not.

Today On the way to Rome their was a garbage can in the road and I said to Gary" Isn't it nice we finally learned to not stop and pick it up? " " Isn't it nice to have freedom?"

You see Gary and I are on the same lessons.. At one time we would stop and pick up 50 garbage cans so they would not cause an accident. We would of coarse missed our appointment and would of done ourselves harm. But before we would of thought it was our duty to fellow man for Gods sake we should.

But now we understand that that is sticking our nose in other peoples lessons and only making us look bad to others and be irresponsible to those who were waiting on us.
For us our lesson was to not stop. For other people the lesson might be to stop and learn that we are our brothers keeper. Each person has their own lessons for their Spiritual growth.

It doesnt mean we should never help others. Many times I have stopped when I saw an elderly person dragging their heavy garbage cans to the road or something like that. And I know it made them feel loved and lifted their Spirits.

Well I hope i'm not dragging things out.
And I hope you saw my hug and I am so glad you shared your story and I am sorry I did not catch on to ask you like Candy did" What is wrong?" Lets see if we can chase those demons away and get you back to a peaceful state above the pain and sadness. We need to control the thoughts instead of it controlling you.

Where is the place you are safe and above and beyond those old memories. Thats where we need to be? Lets restore that of which has taken your Peace and Joy? Where it can not rob you of what is rightfully yours.

@ Candyland ,
Good Job ! Thanks for asking Sid that question. It was a no brainer yet I did not think of it with my inbetwwen quicky replys.
Although I was waiting for the volcanic eruption to find out why the Lava was so hot.

!!! oh Connie i love your stories....I can read y - and I actually 'pictured' the scene! - yes - nice anecdote Connie! & its clever the way you build pictures with words because it helps me 'see' things a bit clearer - thank you Connie - perhaps you should be a writer? lol Sid x

Candyland thank you so much for asking that question! - no - I never felt that God turned his back on me....
I am speaking totally from my heart now, its making me very tearful as I type, because I was reminded (by Charles B.) just how disallusioned I was ...Charles had brought all those memories right back at me - and they have 'slapped me in the face' again - I honestly feel just like I did back then, but unfortunately back 'then' I was too young to be allowed to have questions or doubts.
From the day I was born - I was indocrinated into Christianity - I was on the 'Cradle Roll' at the undemininational Christian Mission Hall (my familys place of worship - and attended frm birth til I was maybe 13? 14? - at the age of 13 my family went haywire! - my mother entered into her 3rd marraige, and my sister and I were abandoned - thats the brief version. My mother had 3 children - and 4 marriges - the only real 'connection' that I had was with my 'full' sister - and my 'half' brother! but both Sally and I continually lost touch with my Brother - as my Mother always took him wherever she went (left the marital home. My sister and I were (several times) left alone in houses that she walked out of and we never knew where she was! our 2nd father came home - and threw sally and I onto the street - i think we were 5 & 7 at the time. Sally was 15 months older than me.
then my sister died, tragically - and very young. I watched her die - i cant say anymore.
but - it was when i was 13 that i started 'looking' around different churches/ places of worship - long long bfore Sall dies. she was always 'bemused' by my curiosity! - we were so different - yet so alike!
Perhaps this 'shaped' my progression? am I sounding like I am jumping around the subject here candyland? because i dont mean to! right from the beginning, I remember feeling confused and a bit scared by the way the the 'lessons' were delivered - those 'Sermons' I can still feel the anxiety, when I had to perform in the Annual Sunday School Anniversay celebration - i played musical instruments - I went on the Sunday School outings..(the girls wore a little pink bow-shaped ribbon and the boys wore blue, attached with a little gold safety pin!).I sat and listened to bible studies....but it NEVER answered questions, neither did it help me in my times of need!
Ive searched for years to find my 'niche' in the myriad of relgion - and I have been in every Church that would let me in - I really have! - I spent time in Gurdwaras, Mosques, Salvation Army, Catholic, Anglican, Presbeterian, Evangelical, Southern Baptist - wow it went on for years! I think every place of worship knew my puzzled little face! lol so, then I started to study Religion - from a different angle - I went to university for 4 years studying relgion and philosophy. it was 5 days before my final degree examinations - that Sally died. I never forget! anyway I got my degree, and decided that the best path for me was buddhism, why? - because its so EASY! - so 'user friendly' - it 'ticked all my boxes'! it asks nothing of me - and I ask nothing of it. its a very very simple life that I live. nothing complicated at all!.
I am NOT going to 'burn in hell' - it cannot happen! I have never hurt a living soul in my life! - yes i have been cheeky and impertinent - but I am a nosey person! I need to know! - charles had really upset me - he is acting in just the same way as those church elders did all those years ago - no wonder I left! - i have no regrets at all. I feel SORRY for Charles B - because i think he has 'blinkers' on.
I hope I have made a bit of sense here? i am not vying for sympathy or understanding - i just wanted to perhaps help you get a better perspective of why i am asking Charles b. to substantiate his quotes etc. But - I am not surprised that he evades the request to 'speak from his heart' - have tried to years to get BEHIND the words of the Bible, Charles is not the first to disapoint me - and I doubt he will be the last! - thats all really!
thank you candyland! - Sid x

After of telling you my Story about getting everything I say I need I had gone to Rome and done my chores and then we had to deliver our Weekend Paper route that was a day late :-) But anyhow when Gary and I got to one of the places he has to get out to deliver. I was going to have Gary just throw it next to the door. Instead there was a car parked there with someone in it near the door and in the way.

So ... I said to Gary .. "I wish you didn't need to get out of the car" as soon as I said that the guy got out of the car and come to the window and held his hand out for the papers."

LOL No one has ever done that.. Gary said to me" God I just love the way you instantly get everything you ask for" Then he went on about other things too. LMAO we were in stitches.

We know it was probably coincidence but yet those coincidences happen all the time like everyday.. LOL I said to GAry" Yeah you got your little Jeannie and you did not even have to rub the bottle LOL. Nor do I even have to twitch my nose LOL " Anyhow I thought of you and thought how you would of busted a gut with us..:-)

@ Achems I looked up Electromagnetic radiation to get a little more understanding of light scientifically. Yes there is a ton to understanding .

I did see that white light shining thru a prism creates the colored lights as I was saying. So another words white light is the original source of which colors are fratual out of.

I also found something peculiar. Last week I had been drawn to try and understand why I was seeing the color blue Indigo when I closed my eyes.

For some strange reason I was seeing Indigo so strongly that I sat up and told Gary and I am still trying to figure out why? It plagued me all week. And now I just read that the color Indigo was onced used in the color spectrum and now it no longer is. Instead that name it blue along with the other blues.

I was also wondering what if the Bible had said "I am the truth and the light" What if it said " I am a the Electromagnetic Spectrum ;-) LOL then there would be no doubt that Science was religion's understanding :-)

charles I am really upset - and angry with myself because I think I have saddened you? - tell you what - I will go back into my little cave - and try and be a better person. I thought I was allowed free speech? I said what i said because of reasons - huge reasons - which you have no idea about.
I was a christiam .....for years and years and years - i told you this. so please dont be so dismissive of my questions and doubt! - you should welcome them surely?

Hmm the evolutionist would say > The human eye has evolved through "evolution" to detect visible waves.
The Christian , would say > When God opened mans Eye After sin was inacted and they saw there nakedness.
The Esoterics would say > that the third eye is the all seeing eye the Spiritulist .

Many see seeing in a different light :-)

But the word Light and seeing are used intertwiningly.

I wonder if they were translated as the same thing at one original time in religious texts?

Thanks for bringing some Scientific data to the Equation .
I need to go to Rome now but will contemplate on what you said . I think it has very much to do with the Mind and religion . To me somewhere there is a package with all those viewpoints pointing to one answer for all.

I see flags with the Light being duality = Good versus Bad and positive and Negative = Duality as earliest as I see recorded In Egyptian religion. The headress they wore with the two towers were represented as the Duality, And then there is the
= The mind and consciousness and the Magi understandings .

It all ties in... Light the mind and the minds eye, duality, Light versus darknees. Light as awareness etc.....

Im gone till this evening folks. Have a great day and have fun thinking as we go meditating on each we can share from different perspectives. For We are all one.. Love one another as yourselfs. Because we are each other.....and from one source. I hope LOL

What is light? Well, the "naked truth" is that "light" is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, which ranges from radio waves to gamma rays.
Light is simply a name for a range of electromagnetic radiation, that's detected by the human eye. Light has dual nature as either particle or wave, but never both at the same time.

The human eye has evolved through "evolution" to detect visible waves.
There is no colour per sa, of light, it is strictly the wavelength and angle of vibration called polarization as in "Maxwells" equation. But there is more, along came "Planck, Einstein, et al, with quantum theory, about light, the dual nature thing, but was still right.

Thats makes colours as why is the sky blue? why is an orange? orange, etc:
All colour, is electrical impulses in our brains, so we can see the world with our private movie theatre that is in our brains.

Light cannot be summed up in a few paragraphs, need to write a book, but maybe this will give you a little insight.

@ I don't know.....
Maybe the only thing that matters is Love and do unto others. Its not worth all this bickering amoungst us of who is right and wrong. Perhaps the above is the only truth and eventual possibly good outcome.

Faith and conviction are great tools no matter what the origin as long as they apply the practice of Love and do unto others. If they cross that barrier then there should be an uproar.

We each have to travel the Journey separately and use our own connotations. If we use the principles that apply to natural laws or Gods laws. But the over all rule of do unto others must take prescence because their are so many connotations of fractional truths that are grossly distorted and cause one another to hurt and injure for the sake of supposed rightousness...((((( Rightousness)))))) could actually really mean (Persecution for someones connotations).

Too bad we all can't find the one true source of light and stop the nonsense.If colors were measured in emotions I guess the Brilliance of white light would be Love. I wonder what color science says is the true color soiurce of light? Is it White? Is it a Blue ?

I wish I could sit down think it out and reply. I so much dislike having to blurt without really thinking . today is another crazy busy day without enough hours. I was not suppose to sleep inorder to get everything accomplished with the next 72 hrs. But have it as may we did sleep and now We are hustling. Charles when do you leave and for how long? when will you return to internet after leaving?

I hope I didnt paint myself as a Saint or Martyer. I use to think I was suppose to be as everyone should. But I have learned it is not a Godly thing, Instead it is a Evil bad thing. For God never intended me not to use my God Gifts so I could lay down my gifts and talents for a stronger wittness of my own self being in Christs light.
Instead I found out by trying to help so many I only enabled them and dragged myself into continual lack of what I needed to be strong and do my own job. It was a distraction and nothing good come of it. I was way over board. I went looking for who needed what.
and my eyes were always on healing others pains and needs . I never did mine first. If I had I would not of had eyes on the negative and drawn more to me.

If I had eyes on the good and the plentifull I would not have drawn like moths to a flame the woefull misery I had seen.`
I had made a promise . I made a vow with God when I was 10 years old. That I was going to learn of every pain in the world so I could help others,because no child should hurt this way... My whole life was built on this.

My true Life story is a over exageration of helping others. But I believe It was for the good when all is said and done. I beleive it is a good example of you get what your mind is set upon and you dont always want what you are thinking you want.

For me my understanding is for me to use as my proof and my recordings of data to support my motives and direction and may or may not help others in their journey.

I would like to add Charles that Yes I have had God and Jesus with me always. I am only looking at the whole and seeing what this God and Jesus really are. The principles work both ways but remember Lies and distorted truths. Lights are fractunal and are distorted reflections of a one true source of light.

what I mean is I see lies and truths as fractions of light. Look at a diamond in the light and see the colors how they reflect colors of light which color is the diamonds true color... Well answer is its all fractions of one true light.

I think I lived with the colors of the diamond as proof of Gods Light as fractional truths of light but now I am in search for the Light from which they came.. beyond the distorted truths of colors that Man has taught thru religions and rituals and barbaric priciples of societys outragous fashions and custums.

Really I gotta go.. I wish I could explain more.... But Charles would you try to understand where I am coming from. I am proud of you for sticking like glue to your faith. But try to see if you can see the different colors of the light . Try to see if what you see and I see are from the same light without the fractional seperations from the pure original light.

The same words you see one connotation I see the same words as another connotation. We both see and hear the same words differently. Excpet mine is from your viewpoint and now I see beyond what we were taught as conventional.

@Charles; You said "the other side of gods nature". Yes Gods nature not ours it is for god alone to judge not man. Nowhere does it say for man to judge. Please don't quote the old testament to me that book is rubbish for the most part. The rantings of a hate-filled tribe of goat herders. And finaly as to the crucifixion; Christ made no stipulation as to whome benefitted from his sacrifice.

Sid: I share my heart more openly then perhaps I ought to. "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee" and "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth shall speak." I want God's Word to be part of me as much as you wish it to not be part of you.

I've had many close friends call me wise and insightful for my age, and only in such a case as this is the Bible totally void of any respect athority.

Technically, if you know where a person's source is and they acknowledge it as the source, it isn't plagerism. That was a low-blow.

Connie: I was pondering answering your Magi question. I guess I will. Astrology (a religious belief that the stars control your destine, etc.) is forbidden in the Bible, but astrology (the study of the stars) is not. The Magi were scholars and correctly interpreted signs in the Heavens as God intended them to be read, as even the heavens declare God's glory. If you want to learn about the Star of Bethlehem, then search "Bethelhem Star" on youtube and you'll get the best scholarly explination of what happened at the time of Jesus birth I've ever heard. Brilliant scholarship and explination of a Biblical event that many have not understood (including myself). Hint: The Star wasn't a comet, nor a shooting star, nor a supernova, as many have surposed. If you want to know more and learn more, then look it up.

But, you're right. Most of the Christmas stuff and Easter stuff has Pagan counterparts and/or origins. Give God the honor that is due Him and ignor all the rest if it bothers you. The Apostle Paul said by inspiration of the Holy Spirit that all things (nutral things) are acceptable, but not all things are profitable. If you observe special days, then do it for the honor of Christ; if you choose not to, then abstain for the honor of Christ in your heart." (Highly paraphrased). :-)

@ Charles B. - lol NO! I read everybodys post Charles - but I waited to see your reply before I thinked about my post. I am very busy today, I only have a half hour to spare so I shall post off the top of my head - (which is actually what I always do!) but I am blurting this out (so to speak)
Connie gave a lovely post - it almost made me cry - I feel a lot of honesty in Connie, she is a deep thinker and a caring person, I love reading her posts because they (like mine) are spontaneous - and 'real' - coming from her heart.
lol why do you question her story about the lawnmower, wringer, and washing machine etc charles? - is it important to quote biblical scriptures.....or life experiences? - the life experiences and anecdotes - even opinions, seem to embed thenselves FAR deeper in my conciousness that any of your bible quotes! - and I think this is why you dont seem to make any 'headway' (at least not with me).
why dont you speak from your HEART Charles? (and by that I mean use your words, your wit & wisdom & your experiences? - with no 'back-up' from the Bible whatsoever? PLEASE?
Reasons voice - another post that made me shudder with realisation - I actually cried at the sincere way you wrote - it was so truthful and evoked a lot of emotion in me - it really did.
Achems razor - straight to the point! - i admire your stance! - and whilst I dont know much about you, i see you got your own water purifier (!) - and you seem to be a bit of an 'eco-warrior' - that cuts the mustard well with me!
summing-up
The best speeches/posts are those which are unbiased, factual, and honest - why quote biblical scriptures? or any body elses words??? hardly 'original! you coined the term 'plagerise' Charles!
Achems, RV or commie - have not quoted anybody - and that (in my opinion) is what makes me think that these 3 people far more concious of reality - that is so important dont you think charles???
they are not 'hiding' behind a BIG (important) book - you remind me of Machiavelli - ruling with FEAR instead of LOVE!

- what do you think charles?
will be back online in 24 hurs im pruning the wisteria today - its a honour! -& a very important job so I must concentrate on that!
Sid x

Connie: I read every word of your stories. Did you really find all those "treasures" that you needed but then did use? Anyway, kindness and goodness are often their own reward as I myself have noticed that those in "need" are often the most selfish and ungrateful among us. That's why our motive is very important. Jesus said that even a cup of cold water given in His name would not go unrewarded in Heaven. Don't let you heart grow cold and hard if you can help those in need.

As far as our own minds bringing for our own reality as co-creators with God, well, Jesus called those that love and followed Him "co-heirs" with Christ, and "friends of God" and even "Children of God" but in reality, we are also willing "servants of God." The servanthood brings about the "friend" and "co-heir" status. I recommend a little cosmic humility in the "creation of our own reality" concept. It has some limits.

Peace and Truth to you!

R.V. You said:

"Yes Charles you truly have absorbed the righteous judgmental mentality of the modern christian soldier. Your omission of Christs acts of total acceptance and forgiveness shows it. You seem the type that wants others to pay for their sins more than to be saved. Time and again the new testament teaches that judgment is the mission of god and not man."

That's not my heart at all. I Corithians chapter 13 makes it pretty clear that religious people (Christians) without love are quite vile in God's eyes. There are plenty of passages that talk about the love of God. However, you cannot take away the other part of God's nature which is "justice" and righteousness. "Without righteousness, no man shall see the Lord." Even in the Old Testament where God comes in judgment for sin, those who were kind and gentle and righteous where shown mercy--Rahab the Harlot is a good example. Ruth the Moabite is another Example. The widow who gave Elijah her last cake during the famine (she wasn't an Iraelite by the way) is another. In all those cases, non-Isrealites were shown mercy as they had a heart that was good, and those where just the "Gentiles".

The paralytic in the New Testament that was let down through the roof was told "Go your way. Your sins are forgiven you." as well as just being healed. Righteousness is important, R.V.

I'm fully aware that "love" and compassion is essential to be a true follower of Christ. A month or so ago, I spent 3 whole Sundays on the single topic of "The Love of God."

The challenge I would have for you is to move beyond the "I'm ok you're ok" mentality and realize that faith and righteousness are essential for Christianity as much as love and compassion. Jesus made that very clear also.

Yes, everyone is "equal" (Dalah Lama, Queen of England, you and me) in life and death and that includes the need of repentance and faith in Christ in order to gain eteranl life in the "life to come".

You also said: "One last point; Who did the man you claim to follow suffer and sacrifice for? All of mankind or just you and your fellow parishioners? Think of how ironic it is that your belief in a man of absolute forgiveness inspires you to be a judgmental fool."

Jesus died for all who would believe, R.V. "All of mankind" yes, but only those that accept that sacrifice have the eternal benefit from it. God (and Christ) know those who are true believers, and they are the ones that receive the full benefit of salvation through that faith. As far as being "judgmental" then certainly that's a matter of the intention of the heart as the Bible says both "Judge not that you be not judged" but then in another place says "Judge righteous judgment" and "know those that labor among you." Motive of the heart is a big deal in that aspect when it comes to judging others' motives and ideas.

Sid: Busy?

Peace to you.

Limited days left. I'll check back later, but may or may not have time to post extensively.

The washing machine... I should mention that I would always have some familys that the town and even churches would have nothing to do with or shun them and I would have them bring their years worth of laundry over by the truck loads and I would wash their clothes thinking GOd would want me to help those less fortunate.. I would almost always have to buy all the cleaning supplies and As usual I would pay dearly in other ways as usually they would need much more than food and laundry done and somehow before it was all said and done i would wind up in some kinda jam or muck helping them.

See .... I would look for trouble and sure enough get it... Only the trouble I would get into is thinking I gotta be the doer or giver to help others out of a jam or lift them to what normal standards should be and hope I helped them reach it by my acts..

Know what????? It never helped anyone they just kept taking and taking till I was busted and ill..

I could not understand the churches not helping these people then looking down on me for helping them and being broke. Sad SAd indeed.

But now I am learning, need to want to find in themselves the mind changes.

I also learned that as long as I saw the less fortunate ones as needing help thats all I drew to me.In flocks and groves.

When I see the world in a plentyfull state then my world is surrounded by people with plenty and self sufficient..

Let me try it this way.....
My roller broke on my wringer washer that I like to wash clothes in during the summer, outside where I can be close to nature and the clothesline.

So the wringer breaks. I decide to not fret and leave it to God to fix this situation. So within 3 days or less I find another wringer washer on the side of the road that exactlt matches the one I have and so now I have many spare parts.
I thank God knowing the odds of finding exactly what I need and more must be divine intervention.

I decide I want some used windows so I can build a green house to start my garden earlier each year. within A day or so, I find sources for a ton of windows on the side of the road. I bring them home and Thank God for all the windows I just said I needed.

I decide I need some more pots for my garden. within a day or two I find a tone of flower pots someone threw away. I thank God cause now I don't have to spend a dime on pots.

My lawn mower breaks so I need some parts, so Now I Thank God cause all week I found a ton of lawn mowers all for free so now I have enough parts to rebuild a couple good mowers.

I want some wood to build the frame for my green house and so that week usually things happen within two days and My old boss has a mess of cull graded lumber I can have for free. So I drag that all home.. And of coarse I thank God.

Now I end of getting a lot of part time jobs that keep me busy all spring and summer and fall.
I never build any green house and never had time for a garden But its now near winter and I need to winterize and make room in the sheds.

I have a ton of stuff I said I needed and God just gave me for free just cause I said I needed them .In the meantime I bought Also bought a good Automatic washer and have been too busy too enjoy doing laundry outside and am now spolied again to an automatic washer inside.

Now all I have is a bunch of junk that I have no place to store. Goid surely gave me all those items. Remember how I Thanked him for supplying all my needs and I never asked him for it All I had to do was acknowledge that I needed them.

But Now it costs me $ 100.00 to have someone tow away all the junk. I spent alot of time hauling and moving Junk I didnt use. I also had some of my tools stolen from the guy I hired to haul away the junk.......

DId God after all give me the Junk? Or was it the power of suggestion? Was it the " Spirtual Conscious mind"The mind known to most as the un "Conscious mind" causing me to attract what I had my thoughts and emotions on. Surely my heart was pure for what I thought I needed. I always feed many people and go without , so surely I asked for things I needed. I was Thankfull to God for giving me them. I Trusted on the Lord to provide all my needs.I didn't fret or worry cause I had not knowing he always provides.

And yet when all was said and done it was a thorn in my side to have gotten all those things I thought I needed.

My big lesson and understanding is that there is more to the laws and principles that we are taught in the Bible by denominations.

The laws work but it appears to be a self manifestation and not from an Higher spirtual Entity that created it from above.
I believe it was the laws of manifestation that each individual has as a self creator with the God withing us.

I think more and more that Jesus was trying to show us these things and that the Creator of our reality is the God in us. We are the Temple of God. Every single thing I used to know as truth in the Bible is truth except that it was meant for a different contrast from what we are taught from the religions who do not want us to know how powerful each of us can be.
The Gospel of Jesus was just this: That we do not need the rulership and dictatorship of the Preisthood to be at one with God We are already co creators with him. We are not held at bondage. We are free men.

Do you really think That Constantine and the like were going to set the religious attituide as such? Or would they manipulate the new and growing Christians to number with them if they stopped persecuting Christians and let them legally serve God and Christ their teacher as long as they set the rules.

Lokk up the traditions of the Roman religion and Govt. of the time and the laws they previously had and the Jews too and see how it was all a combo pie made of collected tid bits from here and there. Why even the romans had a tablet of ten laws. The 10 commandments were not anything strange to others having tablets of laws too.

On and on and on....

If you studied on the pagen rituals you would see almost every traditional act by Christians that is celebrated stems from a pagen ritual.

Almost every religion knows all the custums from the X-mas tree , the yultide, the holies etc..... all stems from pagens and yet they celebrate it on the pagen Hoiliday.....

Ever stop to think who the Magi were who brought gifts to Christs Birthday party..? From what I understand the Magi whom the Churches revere as so knowledgable and give credidation for Christs birth , were none other than Astrologers and Magicians . You know the ones the bIble says do not associate with or yoke yourself with.

One last point; Who did the man you claim to follow suffer and sacrifice for? All of mankind or just you and your fellow parishioners? Think of how ironic it is that your belief in a man of absolute forgiveness inspires you to be a judgmental fool.

Yes Charles you truly have absorbed the righteous judgmental mentality of the modern christian soldier. Your omission of Christs acts of total acceptance and forgiveness shows it. You seem the type that wants others to pay for their sins more than to be saved. Time and again the new testament teaches that judgment is the mission of god and not man.

Christs teachings were to be an overhaul of the dark dogma of the old testament. He directly refuted much of the blood thirsty rage and spite of the old words. And here we are 2000 years later dredging up barbaric hate from 4000 years ago to fuel our self righteousness. That is sad. If you truly want to be a "Christian" tear out the first segment of your book replace it with those "evil gnostic texts" and you will have the true Christian faith.

The organized church and the royal families could not have that because the old ways were much better suited for the domination and control of the people. One of the greatest gifts of old faith to the emperors of the world was and is it's decisiveness.

A world filled with ancient hate and bigotry is a world ripe for the picking. I respect you as a man and as a seeker of knowledge but i have no respect for your hard line belief that only you and your fellow "chosen" are worthy of paradise. You are no better in that way than Muslim terrorists, Zionist warmongers, and yes even Nazis.

All of you base your world view on believing that you are somehow better. In my world the pope, the dali lama, the queen of England, and everyone else on earth is equal. Only their actions set them apart. Every one of us falls ill suffers in our own sweat and dies the same. You are no better than anyone else regardless of beliefs. But you lower yourself in your bigotry.

...talk about being direct! - you want a straight answer Charles B? NO! - then my hoest answwer from my heart is NO - I am not convinced that God exists because I have NO proof that God exists.
BUT - if he does/did exist then I just KNOW (underlined) that I am going to be alright! because i do not do anything bad - to ANYBODY! (no Charles...not even a bug!
...talk to me Charles.....convince me that I am wrong......

That was all pretty sad circumvention of anything truly righteous in nature. It was nausiating to read.

RV: Jesus didn't wash her feet as far as I know. He washed His disciples feet as an object lesson in humility and servanthood, but told the women caught in adultary "Go and sin no more" so YES, truly only the righteous deserve eternal peace.

Sid: Do you you even believe there is a righteous almighty God? If so, then find Him in righteousness. You sound to me like you don't really believe He exists.

Jeremiah 29:13 says: "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

And then again:

Romans 8:16 states "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children."

Obviously none of you have ever truly known God or you wouldn't reason as you do. When you know God, you feel His presence and know truth when you hear it. It really is that simple.

It is possible to forsake God for foolishness, but it's nearly beyond my mind's capability to comprehend why people do so. Money, power, etc. is not a good enough reason to surrender your soul.

Connie: This is what you're doing

“My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water." (Jeremiah 2:13).

If ever you truly had known Christ (based on your comment that he was once your "closest friend"), who is the true source of fresh clean pure "living water," then why give Him up for filthy stagnant sewage? You're making an age-old mistake of leaving truth for whatever reason you've done so, thinking yourself wise for doing so.

Repent and renew your mind and let God wash away your sins as it says in Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

Well quite simply the primary objective of any faith is inspiration. One must simply look at what each faith inspires in its followers to determine it's vallidity. I found in my upbringing that the organized catholic church inspired people in negative ways. Not all of them mind you. I even saw one priest stop mid-sermon to scold a woman with a crying infant. As if the sermon was about him not the words of faith. That was my last day in a church after I scolded the priest back at the end of the mass. If one looks at all of the scriptures insted of the cannon the inspirational theme changes drastically. The cannons theme is for pennance and acceptance that we as man are fragile sinfull and corrupt. The scriptural theme is that we as man are capable to be so much better than that. That our free will in conjunction with a true love for our fellow man can elevate us to greatness. Between those two it is not hard to see which is the true message one would expect from a man who forgave all and said such things as "let he who is without sin cast the first stone.". A man who would wash the feet of a downcast woman is not the type to implement a message that only the riteous deserve eternal peace.

one of the besy books for an overall unbiased look at various eastern philosophys, is called 'The Indian Way' by John KOLLER. another book that I always regard as my spiritual guide is 'The Call of the Upanishads' by Ronit Mehta - I think you can see them on the Amazon web site. I think its good to question, I am always questioning everything, and I respect the Bible (as you do) I suppose I just look at it in the same way as a 'old fashioned' book of Morals! - its got some wonderful Parables within it - but I feel that some of them need 'updating!....everything is changing nothing is permanent.....and sometimes we get so deeply inside the forest - that we cannot see the trees! ;-))

Excellent posts @connie. Keep searching. From what you just said it looks like you are well on your way down the path I took for years to get where I am now. I admit that path took me into anger toward the church at times but it has wound back around. I can't hate the church or the faith because what was done happened well before my time. And you can't be angry at the now for what happened in the past. Christ was a great teacher. The jews admit it. The muslims considder him a prophet. The buddists think he may have been an incarnation of budda. None of those groups subscribe to the church determined dogma and yet they still deeply respect him. That is what I looked into. The "why" behind almost universal respect and admiration. When I found the answers to that I found what Christ really had to say, before the romans got their hands on it.

@ Charles
I have a feeling that your and my post are not very exsplicit and do not convey all we mean due to the hurridness to snak a few lines in between our doings.

I do not believe I said anything I wrote as my actual facts . They are what I am studying or angle of thought that relates to the newest study or thoughts to seek out answers to.But I might not of explained that.

I do not quite understand what you are saying in the first paragraph , I do understand you are in a hurry and can't type too long.

The one part I can make out is the part about that because of my hurriedness I wrote my wordas in such a way as I made you think I thought god was suppose to be a nicey nice God and so there is no punishment for sins.... I didnt mean to do that for I am more thinking like you then this.....

However, I am looking at different scenarios now.... I am looking thru a view that perhaps this is all a farce we were feared into believing.

This Blood sacrifice stuff was always part of pagen stuff.

I wanted the truth so much that I am willing to put my safty zone and beliefs to the test. So therefore I can see with different eyes to examine.

It was when I studied all the other stuff that The churches tell you not to. Is when I saw the Bible and the Churches teachings to be all twisted and stem not from Christianity but from the same old Pagen Sun God stuff.....

I cannot show you all the nonsense you have to read it for yoursaelf and then decide if it all is too much a copy..

As far as payment for sins..... Thats what the conscious does here and now.

If we are not true to ourselves and are not forgiving of others we pay for it here.

If we live on lies then we reap it now and same for truth.

It is the same thing as Blessings but an opposite. They say If you Live and walk with God then you will be blessed... That means now and not later. So if blessings can come now as reward then why not punishment?

Go ahead and do stuff now that you know is wrong... don't you end up paying here and now? We don't have to wait . For reaping what we sow.

I do not mean this in any negative way. But anything I say or learn and want to share is fruitless to you. Because you want to stick to what you know... You have to want to see different angles or else you will not see anyway.

This is also part of the fear tactics religion teaches. Moses did not want to be told about God and just sit back and listen and believe.

Instead moses wanted to know God. He went and searched for him. There is no reason not to be able to search for him and his true nature and self unless the religions want us to stay numb and not know.

To me logic says... If anything was gonna be Evil and keep people from the truth and true Nature of God it would be in just such this way... Taking someone who is enlightened and twist him into a bed of old worship and lead the multitude away.
Lies are always twisted in truth or else it would not be a believable lie. SO they took this Jesus who was making men free from their bondage and turned him into a Sun worshiper. basically....And now he is the banner of which the pagen practices and beliefs hide behind...

Connie: You have to have some "standard" by which we measure "trut' otherwise we just hav conjecture and our own personal experiences. Even if I said I had met Jesus personally face to face, I'm quite sure most here would just dismiss it. So, where's the standard? Our personal experiences? The Bible? The Gnostic texts? Your opinion and feeling of contradiction on the nature of God put forth in the whole do the Bible? That's actually quite subjective, and as much so as mine that ways there isn't a contradiction in character of God in the Bible.

Quickly, as I have to go . . . God's chief characteristic is "justice" as well as love. You cannot fit God into your definition of what you think a "loveing" God would do and ignore the concept of the "justice" of God. Justice demands payment for sin, etc. even when there is love there. That's the very reason and point that Jesus had to die on the cross--justice and payment for Sin. Therefore, now it is "just" of god to grant freely love and forgiveness to those that believe, but also just of God to not grant freedom and love and salvation to those that do not accept Christ's gift of atonement.

That's the nutshell version.

Blessings!

P.S. I'm not really thin-skinned (usually) so you don't have to worrry about being "harsh" with me. Within reason. I haven't pulled many punches myself lately! :-)

Thank you Connie - your words are clearly written from your heart and they make so much sense to me. I deeply apologise for being harsh with Charles B., I really do feel terrible that I came across as harsh - I just did not know how to put into words that which I felt - or feel. I am so sorry for questioning everything - I just cannot help it. please believe me when I say that I am not a bad person. I try so hard to do good. forgive me Charles and Connie from Sid x

@ The Bible seems more to me then ever written by PAgans and their blood thirsts for sacrificial atonements and repeat stories of pagan cults and war and rituals of service that are Gothic Governed by a ruler oooowho rules with a fear rod.

Not Of a Higher Enlightened Consciousness who teaches of Love . I am seeing strongly the contrasts and divisions in the bible of someone who was used as a pawn to control the masses according to the Pagan Gpvernmental control.

@@@@@ Sid, Your tone sounds to me of being harsh and impatient with Charles.
Try to Remember His faith and conviction are strong in the way he always knew.
Probably to see anything else he has to arrange his conscious self ( mind)that its ok and not Betrayal to see from another view.
I am still having some trouble there myself...

Just wanted you all to know I am listening but falling asleep before I can answer back. I have a busy week again. My winter supply of squash is not holding up so I have to cook and freeze it along with getting caught up from where I was working on the Grants.

I am sorta glad I have not responded for I get to look at the whole of what you are all saying and I say it all sounds good and is thought provoking.

This film cuts right to the core and makes us face the facts upon which we base our beliefs. It is a good thing.

Charles B. I am alot like you in that I do not want to let go of what I have believed yet I made a deal with my conscious that for the sake of finding truth and tear down those flags that would arise continually that I would examine all that I could fnd, No matter where the flags took me.
I hope what I am to say does not cause you to revolt but I too see that you are using scripture to back up your understandings and personal mental library of info.

It is the bible itself we are disecting so therefore we need you to come in from another angle. An angle that is above the content of the scripture.

I am not against what you are using or saying.I don't think any of us really are. But can you come in from another view and that backs the bibles context where as the Film Naked truth shows the invalidity of its context.

I want very much to see the Jesus portrayed as the bible demonstrates to be real. But I do not see that evidence only contraire.

Yes I too hold onto my personal relationship with Jesus as my proof, Yet I also know that This personal Jesus I know is also so much a part of my being but yet he has another name too and that is my very own Consciouness.

What we have been following could also be just another road to a conscious self and all the rules and laws that govern a Christian way of thinking and living and laws that govern are also the ways to a purer higher self Consciousness.
Quantum Physics I guess you could call it.
For Eastern religions I guess it is Higher enlightenment.

I Ask with even more questioning then ever. Was this Jesus we know really just another higher enlightend man one who was strong in enlightenment and sharing what he knew and used by the Romans and mocked like he was just another fable before him. Just another Anti - Pagan being Mocked of True Enlightenment and written in as a Savior of the world... Was this Mocking they attest, even a larger picture then we know.

WAS there never A God/Man Jesus ? But was this Jesus An Enlightened soul That the Roamns and Jews could mock and add to their continual pagan stories. Was This the case against all the Christ like stories before him?

Was the Ruling government Bodies Always knocking down the self enlightened ones?

Thank you for all the comments made to me by the way. I am working on trying to answer them. It is hard when I let so many get by me... But I am listening and reading them..

So there you have it! i am unable to quote Bible - I do not use it, but I think Charles has a duty to (at least) answer your questions? - and I mean from his HEART not from his scriptures...which seem to equal - the Bible!
thank you reasons voice from sid

@Charles; You do know that none of the four chosen gospels include anything about any of those angels right? And that mention of angels even in old testament is minimal. Even the so called devil is not directly mentioned only in the context of "and temptation found him there" and such. It was only later that this "temptation" was assigned some sort of spiritual/corporeal form as well as a mane. That was in conjuction with the inclusion of the greeks into Christianity as a new form of Hades.

yes I have looked back - and the ladys name was Lynne Fux - she is a 'BuJew' - who practises 'NMRK' - could you substantaite your belief Lynne? i am still having great difficulty in putting your beliefs into perspective!
thank you from Sid

hello again Charles! I am reading all your posts, and also those of Achems Razor (razor sharp methinks) and Reasons voice,
Charles you really should answer their questions! but not from bible scriptures - but from within your own mind! I could easily 'quote' or use somebody elses 'phrases' but that would be displaying 'ego'at somebody elses expense - i have already said to that 'Bujew' from Israel that I cannot condone nicheren Shoshu Buddhism - she replied that 'NMRK@ was at fault - and yet she never bothered to explain to everybody what 'NMRK' was!!
well, for the unenlightened it just means Nam Myoko Renge Kwo - which is the essecnce of the Lotus Sutra - I am disappointed with her reluctance to SHARE her mind with us - and to help me understand why i find the 'NMRK' to be so selective. I am uncomplicated - I really am!
but i am also disappointed with you - hiding behind your scriptures!
Forgive my impertinance - its just how I see it. Reasons voice and Achems razor appear to be speaking from their heart - that is so important to the hinesty of belief.
thank you for listening Charles - from Sid x

Mr. Razor: The way I phrased my comment "If there is a God then Satan must be real also" was very purposeful. God is first and foremost, of course, but Satan is mentioned in the Bible, so therefore I believe in his existence as a real entity also.

The way I understand Satan is that God did not create Satan for the purpose of evil or damnation (some would disagree based on interpretation of acient texts), but Jesus certainly made it clear that he is an enemy, not a servant of God.

Anyway, Lucifer wad created perfect in all his ways, including the ability to "sin". He was an archangel, like Michael or Gabriel, which is a very high rank. Unlike us human people who are able to repent, the fallen angelic beings have no form of redemption from their sin. Christ died so that the offspring of Adam and Eve might have a chance to repent, but not so the fallen angelic beings (should they even want to). "Satan" is the term we give to the entity that Lucifer became in his rebellion.

As far as Satan knowing God's plan, his understaning is limited, but God's plan is in the Book! When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used Scripture in the temptation. In fact, Satan when tempting Eve, even mentioned what God had said about "you may eat of every tree of the garden", but misconstrued what was said. Someone like Reb comes to mind where he twists every Scripture to even sometimes mean the opposite of what is meant. Satan is not an ignorant fairy tale, Achem's. He's very formitable, especially if you do not know how he deceives. Without God's help, you and everyone else in this world that reject Christ is believing at least one of his lies--he's the master deceiver of which one day we all will know that all too very clearly.

Anyway, don't worry. Times will get much worse for the likes of me as a believer in Christ before they get bad for the rest of the world. Christians are almost universally hated now world-wide. It's just a matter time in our lifetimes (I believe) before they start chopping off our heads . . . . . in Canada and Europe and the U.S.A. and not just where they are not in Muslim and Communist countries by the thousands.

@Charles; I have to disagree with your assessment of my interpretation of Jesus. I think that if one reads all of the books not just the four included gospels one will see a broader picture of basic christianity. Christianity has been mutated time and again as it was adopted by different peoples. The first and strongest perversion came with the Romanizing of the faith. Suddenly you start to see Angels and Demons with super powers and Jesus is more akin to say hercules than a wandereing jewish prophet. Your dismissal of the gnostic gospels was inacurate many of the gnostic texts specifically adressed the crucifiction and resurection. However many of them focused more on the mundane human side of Christ. Like the story of Jesus pushing his friend from a roof and abusing his power by resurecting him. Just the kind of thing a 12 year old with supernatural abilities might do.
Again and Again the bible is thinned and rewritten by powerfull nations to cater it to their needs. When the bible reaches the North and the pagans we suddenly get saints. Saints provide a roll filling transition for the multi demi-god worshipers to associate with this new faith. I don't really believe in a heaven hell afterlife. I think that the heaven and hell refered to is the outcome within life. If people behave poorly in society it becomes suffering. if they behave well it becomes paradice. that simple.

Whatever floats your boat, you said if god was real, than satan was also real, that doesn't make sense to me, Charles. Are you saying your god may not be real unless your satan is also real? And how could he possibly know of some of your "gods" plan? is there some inter-office intrigue maybe, politics maybe hmmm?

If your god made everything why would he even make your satan in the first place? and give him all this power? I thought he was the boss?

Mr. Razor: We have different standards for what we "trust" in. I don't want to be so open minded that my brains fall out!

Razor, you don't believe in God so you don't think that He exists to watch over His Word through the process of selection (canonization, etc.) for future generations. Jesus Himself said via John on the Island of Patmos in the book of Revelation that the Gnostics were teaching the "depths of Satan". I'm not surprised the Gnostic Gospels do not even have the Crucifixion story as the inspiration behind them is demonic, just as the inspiration for the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are of God. At that time, the Gnostics had a mystic society that promised that one could know the "depths of God" but Jesus clearly changes that saying to reveal the origin of the authors/advocator's inspiration and motivation as being from Satan, and not God. Until the time of the fulfillment of all things, there will always be some "wolves" among the true sheep. You just have to know the difference when you hear them.

Similarly, there may be other writings that have historical use and some may be of a neutral nature, but many cannot be trusted. The heart of the Gospel is preserved in what we have now as the Bible. I'm confident that God watched out over His Word and we have want is needed and have excluded that which was fake, or worse yet, an out-right attempt by demonic forces to deceive.

Avoiding the piles of little round goat droppings in the cherry orchard (seeing full well that that it's a pile of droppings and not cherries) is not "cherry picking" Mr. Razor--it's wisdom in discerning good from evil and right from wrong and righteousness from wickedness.

Razor, if God is real, then Satan is also real, and Satan is five times as intelligent as any of us and his very purpose is to kill, destroy and deceive. He's known for a long time parts of God's "plan". It neither surprises me nor dismays me when there are "similarities" to the Gospel before and after the real deal of Jesus Christ and His life and redemption on the cross. Without God's help "even the very elect would be deceived" as the Bible says, by the enemy of our souls, which is Satan.

Achems, we should trust God and His Word unconditionally, and then we carefully weigh all else by that standard. And yes, it is about faith sometimes. All ancient "gospels" and texts are NOT of equal value.
Peace to you.

Sid: No, I haven't forgotten about you, and oh, yes! My kids are much better. They're recuperating well now. I'm more inclined to take them to the doctor when are sick and I suspect I know what it is, but my wife is a pray-er, and I respect that. I've been watching Sid Roth (It's Supernatural) and the latest episode talked about supernatural prayer language which was of particular interest to my wife as they told the story of God giving Sid the Filipino language to witness in and my wife is a Filipina. I was most interested in the episode about Psalm 91 where there is a promise of protection and "covenant" between God and the believer. That episode was faith-inspiring for me. I recently met Brad Mcclendon here in South Korea personally, and so I've had some faith-building lessons lately. Basically you need to have the faith before the need for it comes your way, such as the hopeless diagnosis from the doctor, or otherwise. Brad had to walk his talk when he was in a service one time and they brought in a dead child. He spent some time with God and said, "Lord, will he get back up?" and the Lord said, "Yes. Pray for resurrection." Much to everyone's joy, God resurrected the child, but you need to walk your talk before the time comes for a miracle, or it just won't happen, even if it was God's desire for it to happen.

I'm very academically minded sometimes, and I have to balance faith and logic, study and "just knowing". But, my hero is the Apostle Paul who was a brilliant man intellectually but also a man of profound faith. Apart from Christ Himself, Paul is my "hero" of faith. But, I also love the person of John and David from the Bible, but I love to study the miracles and lives of modern men too like Smith Wigglesworth that saw like 23 resurrections from the dead through prayer. When someone mocked and said "Smith, what do you do if you pray for them and they stay dead?" Smith said, "I step over them and pray for the next one." :-)
I'm trapped in Korea with limited material to study here except on the Internet. I need a masters in education for my future goals, but I'd love to just study theology and archeology and science and church history full time.
History runs in cycles, and I just know that I know that God's planning the next and greatest revival of faith and miracles the world has ever seen. It's already underway. I read today the passage that said "You cannot put new wine into old wineskins, or they will burst and the wine is spilled and the wineskins are also ruined." It means that when God has a new move, or does a new thing, then new ways of doing things also accompany the new move of God. If we want to be part of the new move of God then we must be flexible and not lose our ability to adjust, or we will be bypassed. That's why churches and moves of God in the past grow old and useless, because they no longer keep their flexibility when God is ready to do a new thing. I'm excited. These are fantastic days we live in! I'm going to work on this for a sermon this Sunday. I want to be ready for what God is doing now, and not just study about what He's done in the past.

Anyway, my kids are good. Thanks for asking.

Connie: I think your comment about not being quite ready to give up Jesus as being your closest old friend as a fairy tale, or something like that troubled me the most. Jesus is a real entity. He's not just academic. Talk to Him about this situation and your search for truth. Talk to HIM (and then take time to listen in return), and don't just cloud your mind with anything that comes along.

Peace to you.

Time is limited so I may or may not have much time to post in the next few days.

Vlatko: Many thanks for this wonderful website. I love the docs and I love the threads. It makes me happy.

P.S. Connie just write you your e-mail and then spell check and then cut and paste. That's what I do when I have the time. I should do that ever time as I'm not the best speller actually. Sad but true.

I have had many many 'attempts' at finding my path - picking my way through the jungle! - when I was younger, I doubt I had time, patience or energy to look withing myself for answers. My family were demanding, my marriage was in trouble and my life was in chaos. looking back, I doubt I would have ever found Buddhism - I guess I was not ready.
There is a lot to be said for the belief (in Hinduism) that our lives are 'divided' into 3 'Ashramas' this is the way I 'justify' how people inevitably change throughout their lives. it also can be used to explain why Muslims go on 'the Hajj' I am in my 3rd Ashrama now - and it is at this point that I am old enough to ask the questions and ponder the answers - in order to reflect and discuss & debate with those younger than me! its that simple. my mind is uncluttered, (usually!)

@ Charles b
good morning Charles B - I have been thinking about your children Charles & I believe Connie was concerned too - are they better?
you have only written 3 lines @ me, I am deducing that you have not got anything to say to me? I hope you are not giving up! - could this be a small but significan sigh that you are 'running out' of things to say in response to my views? i do hope not!
Charles - I dont STRIVE for righteousness Charles ...I try to LIVE my life in harmony not stife. If striving for righteouness means killing gods creatures, which is what you said that you do! - then my passive resistance - is a 'kinder' path than yours!
I dont want to 'goad' you Charles - and I do not intend to sound 'smug' - I have tried to write this with no ulterior motive - I have no ego either . I am not relying on any written book! - i am not quoting frm anything written before. I am simply trying to keep on the middle path - my life is very uncomplicated. thats what brings peace to me and everything around me - even the bugs are happy!

It is said that spell checker on our computer works for usage when using this forum.. I do not know how to use my spell checker without loosing my writings in this comment block.
So I am going to do some trial tests and see if I can figure out how to do just that.
Bear with me please.

Peter PIpper piccced a pecc of ppickled ppepepppers

Nope ! Can't find spell checker anywhere. Perhaps I need to add it to my tool bar? I wonder how that is done?.. Hmm I'll

There you go again, "trust first, understand later"?? trust what? a belief system, words that are written in a book without any refutable evidence of any kind. How are you supposed to take that to the bank?
All you religee's have is a mass hallucination Charles, with your belief systems.

You no doubt are referring to the KJ Bible, how about all the other gospels that never made it because of the ecumenical council held in Nicea in 325 AD. where it was determined by cononical decree that the NT would be forever known by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Gnostic gospels also, are they not relevant? where no crucifixion even occurred. No risen from the dead. All the hidden stuff, now that would make a good story!

I wish I had no other obliglation as so many people are so confused about such simple things here. In brief, as I have class in 10 minutes:

Sid: Your philosophy sounds good in theory, but in truth we need to strive for righteousness, truth, that which is truly good and do so with our whole hearts, and souls and minds. Passive faith is not faith at all.

Connie: Two Bible passages come to mind reading your remarks. One says that some are always learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth, and the second is that spiritual things are spiritually discerned and understood. Just like Eve was able to be fuddled in her thinking by the cleverness of Satan in the form of the serpent, arguments and "possibilities" that don't outrightly deney (or sometime they do outrightly deney) God's truth and ways can be twisted to deceive our understanding of God's nature and character. You're looking for truth in piles of diabolical deceit. Books have been writen on hearing God's voice, but you have to start with a standard, which is the Word of God. It IS Satan's job to lie, kill, decieve, and destroy the things of God and he does it very well. Jesus said that we need to come to Him with the faith of little children. Trust first; understand later.

Reasons Voice: You're missing the point of Jesus life. He was 100% man but also 100% divine. He wasn't just a man as any other man. Without what he did as the son of man and the son of God there wouldn't be salvation for anyone past, present or future. The Cross was for a reason, and spiritual things are discerned (understood) by inspiration of God's Spirit to our minds. You can't find that which is so easy to understand about Jesus purpose because you have no discernment as to why He came in the first place. The Bible says that here is a way that seems right to man (our reasoning), but the end is death. That's pretty simple and blunt that how we think sometimes is simple wrong with no if's and's or but's about it.

@Sid; Progress is inevitable. It is neither entirely good nor entirely bad. Like I said in terms of morality the same applies to progress. Advancements in any field are only as good or bad as the intent of the man/woman using or developing them. A knife in the hands of a chef is a far different thing than one in the hands of a murderer. I think that the greatest dilema being faced today is that people have forgotten or are ignoring accountability and personal responsability. Here where I live it is as if we are becoming a society of children (ill manered children). Society is a delicate ballance where the individual must be responsible for themselves while at the same time existing in harmony with others. Thus the developement of religious doctrine and later Law.
@Connie; My personal take on Christianity is that it has been poluted over years. Actually since it is the entire premise of the messiah story that Jesus live as a man it destroys the value my making him god. If it is a story about sacrifice where is that sacrifice if Jesus was not attached to life. If he has none of the weeknesses of man none of the wants of man how is it that he is suffering or that he is sacrificing? If you told me that I could absolve all of the worlds sins, save all of the worlds souls, and since I will live forever and not looses anything in the process I would sign right up. That isn't sacrifice thats acting out a role in a drama. I think that all of the humaness and vulnerability of Christ was destroyed by the Romans because to them Gods were Gods and they converted Christ to fit that mold. In that process Christianity lost the greatest messages of all. That an ordinary man no greater than any other could, through his own will and nature, sacrifice all he holds dear for the good of the world. That we are all equal to eachother and that we are no less the sons and daughters of god than he was. Thus he called people his brothers and sisters.

Connie you make me laugh! you have a childlike innocence and such energy! I think that you are seeking the truth...the same way as me - and almost everyone I know. sometimes we just 'look too hard' Connie! I think its much more simple than the studying of (for example) Magi, Kabbalists, Moses, Israelites, Judiasm, Rameses. Tuttmoses, Akenaten etc etc....you are noble is searching so hard for truth! - but I am not sure that you will ever find it - has anyone found it for sure?
At the risk of angering you - I say that you are trying too hard - why dont you just 'free up your mind'? and accept the constant arguments over religion - (i tend to feel as if my eyes glaze over when i am confronted with hard facts and questions!) is this bad? Connie I fear I may be ignorant of so much but I also think my path is far less complicated than that to wich you are seeking (and referring) - but you sound as if you are frustrated and confused? - so am I!
Life is as simple as we make it - I am at my happiest when I am here in Lam-Rim, when I have to leave I will find it very hard to get into this meditative state of mind - it will take a lot of concentration and I will have to find somewhere peaceful amongst the chaos of this world! - I would love to be in isloation sometimes - but maybe I am foling myself! that is the only dilemma I face, I am fortunate.
Maybe some people will think I am not doing enough to stop all the wars in the world? and the Political fervour that we face everyday? - I am doing everything I can - by doint NOTHING - if we all minded our own business and did not contribute to the 'hysteria' would it be better? or worse? i shall ponder this is meditation today - thank you Connie, Sid

lol - I am replying to your question without any refernce to facts and figures - I believe the next Dalai lama is already here! naturally it is a boy - thats just the way it has always been. I believe he is somewhere in a Monastory being taught how to 'Debate' and 'Meditate' and has been preactising the 'Noble 8-fold path' (and the 4 noble truths) since he was born. ....every Dlai Lama is chosen from withing the Theravadan Buddhists. (of which Women are not allowed) Charles - at the risk of sounding 'complacent' and ignorant, I really dont concern myself with the 'hows' or 'whys' of The Dalai lama - I just accept it - and free my mind to concentrate on thinking about the ways of the world, and trying to keep up! The Dalai Laman is NOT a re-incarnation of Siddartha Guatama - he is only a Human being - just like you and I. but I daresay that he is much more highly educated in Buddhism than I will ever be. In my meditation centre (Lam-Rim) we have a very very mixed band of Buddhists! its a very congenial place to be - full of acceptance and we are always trying to master the art of keeping an open mind in everything! - we eat vegetarian, have dormitories - where anyone can stay - costs about 15 dollars a day!...we have a huge sunny meditation room - and a place of worship - which is painted in Blue & yellow! the garden has a beautiful Wisteria plant - and seems to always be full of Birds and Butterflies - they seem to come from everywhere! - there seems to be a harmony between all living things here! - i love it but I shall have to go soon as there are not enough beds for everyone!
I respect every religion. though if I may dare to say - I just hope wnd wish that People would THINK more - instead of blindly following.
thank you Charles! sid

@ Well , I really liked this Doc. It had most all the elements I had been watching on net rolled up in one.
There is yet more out there I hope it makes its way here.

I have finally exausted my research and have 90% given the Bible up as Fairy tales from Ancient past but I am a di HArd fan of Jesus and still do not want to give up my best friend I ever had just yet without exausting all possibilities.

I next want to make sure that maybe the Gnostics might hold the true nature of God and Jesus.

Just because the Roamas did not have it right and borrowed from ancient past and mixed it with The Pagan cults so Constantine could add numbers to his war Campaign , I still see possibilitys that the real Jesus story could of been covered up and twisted so as to make Jesus his 17 th Jesus figure of Mythology.

Perhaps there was a whole different way of life Jesus was portraying and the romans made Jesus story a lie. Perhaps there really was a Jesus that the Merovginians were protecting in France ?????? Who Knows but I want to follow the Gnostics to the end and see what develops.

I also want to see if I can find any more on the very beginning.... If the gods ( falling Angels) aliens? whatever made earth a copy a mirror image of the heavens and if they were rebelling from a GOOD GOD Then whats his story....

Where do the MAgi and Magicians fit into the KAbbalists ? They were Jews I think...

Another lead I need to finish following is the Jews and Egyptians seperation and connections of time periods when
Abraham ..... supposed Gods first Chosen then when Moses who was raised as Egyptian.

Was MOses just another copy story for the Isrealites.? Did that story copy Akenaten .Abraham was suppose to be the first who found one God not many.

Akenaten was the first Egyptian to have said there was only one God.

Was Moses Akenaten?

Heres a twist the actual biblical time period is off .. they say Ramses was the Pharoh in the time of Moses but that time period is off by the Catholic dating that all religions followed blindly using as time table.

Tuttmoses I believe is the Egyptian Equivalent for Moses.

The story of the basket and found in a reef fits both Stories.
The records were destroyed supposedly for Moses in Egypt so here we have a twisted time event.. we can assume dating would be off anyway.

Akenatens story is too much like MOses.

Anyways the point is I still want to follow suits here .. I still need to seek out the Storys from Zecharia Sitchens and the actual cuniforms ( Clay Tablets found ) Of Enki and linlin and enlil etc.....

SO Much yet to learn ............

I know this much.. I was cleaning out my books tonight and come across some School text books on History that I had saved and was learning from when I first found interest in hisTory a few short years ago. They are about America The Home of the free and they talked about Our Civil rights and Liberties ... Gary and I about sat down and cried.. For it was just like the movie Planet of the Apes.. We felt like we had found a time capsule and read about a land that once was so different. It felt as queer as though we time traveled.

This is still so heart shattering.,, Nothing is the same... Our God Nor Our country all was A lie? I hope not... I truly hope not.

Sid: You missed my question about the rebirth of the Dalia Lama. I dont' believe in reincarnation certainly, but it's an interesting dilema as Tibet is controled by the Communists. Will the "line" of Dalia Lamas just come to and end when this one dies? What's the latest word or opinion on the subject from someone within the "know" more than I am. I read just today that he may "retire" from politics and that he said the next Dalia Lama might even be a woman.

Anyway, I'm only mildly interested; it's not essential for me to have to know the latest news in that respect.

My post for you in the other thread didn't pass moderation yet. It might be axed, and if such is the case then perhaps it needed to be as I was rather forthright but not purposely rude in it.

@ reasons Voice
see, the 'problem' is the ever changing World in which we live - its progressing so fast its hard to keep up! the 'rules' have to be constantly updated and renewed to keep in touch with modern living,
and is progress good?
thats another big question i shall sleep on tonight - Sid

My word I have been pondering all evening over what you wrote! i thinked and thinked and i must say it really makes sense to me now, that not everybody has the same inate morals or values as the next person - is that right? so therefore the 'law of sorts' that you mention is a necessary sort of 'moral guideline' for humanity? have i got it right? it makes sense to me, thank you reasons voice - another small adjustment has been done to my brain - just a little 'tweak' mind you! I am laughing now!
thank you for that! sid.

@ Sid; It is all very complicated. Yes man has an innate attraction toward order. Take physical attractiveness. Symmetry is the underlying guideline in what we as a species find attractive in a mate. Same sized eyes equidistant from the bridge of the nose, same sized ears etc. When we see a person who has a deformity of symmetry we are bothered subconsciously by it. Look to the most lauded artworks and you will see that they are all laid out in a symmetrical balance. Eastern faith follows this in such examples of Feng shui and Meditation rooms and gardens. Order brings calm. It has been studied by neurologists. By exposing individuals to images of both chaos and order they noted the brain activity. Ordered pictures not only calm the mental processes but also the respiration and heart rate. While chaotic images cause stress to the body and mind.
While in ancient times wise men may not have been as knowing of science they were acutely aware of the workings of their own bodies. It was through that oneness with their physical body that they determined the value of order.
As to my statement that order is needed to maintain civilization. Take adultery for example. To the outside party ,if guided simply by their own will, it seems a good prospect. They have found a person they are attracted to and wish to pursue that person to satisfy their physical drive. However from the inside you get a whole different effect. If we don't have a law of sorts saying that it is wrong what we end up with is fighting anger and sometimes even murder.
That is just one example of how, in a society ruled only by individual will, we get chaos and the eventual breaking down of the society.
I think that was one of the guiding realizations to the early mystics. Who in essence were a central figure to the society and often time the leader.

good morning everyone! - I am very happy today as I read everybodys opinions, I want so much to get totally involved!...and yet I am afraid of the strength of your belief (not all of you) but like Charles B - who has (in my opinion) a belief that is ruled by, and running parallel with, the Bible.
post number 51 - Reasons Voice - absolutely wonderfully written with a frim grip on reality but with a concious line of thinking in the paranormal sense also.
Religion, you say, is not about dogma - but messages. Yes I am always questioning...I dont think its at all complicated! its simply the philosophical ways that the World exists - and this changes daily - everything changes and so the philosopies are always fresh and slowly I find that they blend to fit the way we live today.
Whish reminds me of your wit and wisom blog of yesterday 'Reasons Voice' - when you reminded me that i (inadverently) cause the death of germs etc - well, this is true! - I am guilty! - I have killed and mutilated millions of potatoes during my life also .....and be-headed thousands of lettuces. I cannot defend myself.
If I were to become a Fruitarian (sp) - I would just eat fruit and pulses..but its never been asked of me - thats what I like about Buddhism - NOTHING is ever asked of me! the part of your post where you mentioned that 'if everyone was allowed to roam freely then chaos would ensue' - is something I wondered about - I ask you how do you know that? I am considering your words but I also have to consider that mankind has inate qualities enabling hin to structurise his surroundings with chaos?
I also agree with you that the Holy Books are guides to wisdon - and very good guides too! - but unfortunately - their quality of content has been taken too literally by those of us with no desire to think for ourselves?
@ connie and Achems Razor - I will be back - I have to do my morning chores now! - im keeping my mind very very clear for meditation - and also for my next visit here! otherwise i will be as confused as I was yesterday. I am very simple really. thank you Sid

@ Charles
Thats why I missed this Doc too ! I saw the Ape and never looked at the film. I also thought they were pushing Darwin again.

I also don't buy the evolution monkey business either.
If anything I would say some kinda Experiment on DNA or mistakes from Nephiliums and man or even just some different Adams from once upon a time but No way on on Human monkey business.
I think I would even accept Aliens first LOL

I suppose. Why do they have an ape-man for the picture if it's all about religion? I just really get so tired of evolution everywhere. I'd love to be a multi billionaire so I could hire my own Christian scientists and archeologists that know what they're talking about and make about 20 or 30 documentaries with Creationist leanings even if it's just about slugs having sex (which is actually exceedingly interesting actually). Do you think I could "buy off" David Attenborough and have him narrate them, or would he choke on the words, "And the slug was created to be both male and female in a marvel of God's great and mysterious tale of reproduction. Look at the fabulous complexity that could only come from the mind of a Higher Understanding." Ahhh, one can daydream, at least, can't I?

But alas, whomever has all the big bucks if they be Christians have deemed such documentaries "unworthy" of production. I know a lot of money goes towards "missions" and such, however! Gees! Where's their priorities?!? ---- The eternal souls of people or satisfying my desire to watch some nice documentaries or nature films without all the evo-trash being forced down my throat all the time.

Anyway, I'm really tired of all the money-man artwork. If you tell a lie long enough, you can tend to forget it's based mostly on conjecture and a whole lot of persistent evolutionary artists' desire to find that still unfound "missing link". I suppose I could ignore the picture and watch the documentary, but I'm already irritated enough not to want to. LOL Ok. If this is the "chosen" thread, then so be it, for a few more days at least, and then I'm off to the Philippines for a long time without the slightest thought of Topdocs until I get my own computer. Perhaps.

Going to have to watch the doc. But based on comments and title page I can say a few things first. Yes @Achems I am glad that you are seeing the connection between eastern philosophy and Quantum. To me religion is not about the dogma it is about the messages within and the mysteries it ponders. It is true that many tribal religions and some of the early civilization faiths (the Greek pantheon) had specific deities to explain natural phenomena that we understand scientifically today. But what I look at is far beyond that. To the mention of numerous planes of existence in many religions. That pairs up with string theory Achem. No? Imagine people 2-3000 years ago pondering the equivalent of string theory. There are, in my opinion, two primary aspects of religion. One is the philosophical questioning of reality. The other is formative societal parameters. I know that Achem will scoff a bit at me for this. I think that in some ways the "rules" and "moral codes" of most faiths were a mystical attempt to ensure sanity in people. When man came together into tribes and towns and cities and society was born it became essential to construct some form of common agreement. Like killing is bad stealing is bad etc. That is essential to the success of the society. If everyone in a tribe were allowed to freely determine for themselves what was right and wrong, especially in early days, chaos would ensue. In that sense I feel that holey books are compilations of wisdom. Often the centerpiece of a tribe was the medicine man or holey man and due to that the early laws if you will were written in a mystical slant.

I would rather comment on 'Life of Buddah." "Naked Truth" sounds like a porno, and if I use the school computer, I don't want that word saved for others to see and 'ASSUME' something bad. Besides, I really dislike evolution pollution solution theory.

This is quite a long Documentary to watch (1hr 50min) and I found my concentration wandering - as I was bombarded with information, facts & data from several religions and spanning well over 2500 years. Yes, I agree that some of the information varies from what I have learned in the past, but - does it matter? - the basic principals were 'in situ' - spelling and interpetation differences are inevitable - in Eastern and Western Religions/philosophies. I was actually rather impressed with (what I saw to be) a valiant attempt by the presenters to make us THINK for ourselves - and if that was the only message they got across - thats a huge step forward. It does not matter how or when or if.....but it does matter that we are conciously thinking about the philosophy, psychology, ethics and logic of all things relevant - thus enabling us to form an opinion that is open to debate.....to keep an open mind will allow us to tackle the questions raised in this documentary.

To live in eternity with God is to live with Truth, Love, Light, Hope, and Purpose. The burning in fire or Hell is due to the relentless pursuit of self-serving, ego of Man bent on having power, dominion, and control. To the Atheist who "believe" that there is no true Diety or Creator, by virtue of your own "faith" you proclaim yourselves to be god. If you say there is no "God" you are proclaiming absolute knowledge of truth. Well, well then, who is the true "religious" fanatic? The religion of Man is the greatest farce, Darwinism is mankinds ultimate downfall. Evolution elevates mankind from primative lifeform to progressive, complex beings that are continually evolving to ultimate Dieties. WOW!!! Now that's a "Leap-of-Faith!!!".

The film itself does play to the end (at least on my computer). It gets quite dry when listing parallels between major religions but is worth persevering with. For a shorter summary of most of the info here watch part 1 of Zeitgeist - The Movie.

It's very handy for leaders to tell us not to question established norms in society while they live in total hypocrisy to the beliefs they encourage (war, greed, lust for power, etc.).

Having been brought up in a faith, I drew much comfort from those beliefs in early life. It has been a long slow process for me to realise that perhaps information such as this may be more factual than belief in miracles, etc. but now the logic seems obvious.

As the film says, true spirituality is what matters - respect for human life and respect for nature. If you choose to fit a belief around this, it seems important to remain true to genuine spirituality as opposed to being manipulated by leaders with their own agendas out of fear.

The point near the end about language is very poignant too - most of humanity has been in a childlike all-believing stage for many millennia. It is perhaps now at an adolescent stage (where purile humour/entertainment and scatology are accepted norms). One only hopes that we will reach an informed adult stage with this core spirituality in tact before we blow ourselves up. As it took 13 billion years to get to this point, it would be a bit of a waste!

I am an atheist, but you can't buy this stuff at face value. Simple bad example: "archa-noa" and "ark of Noah", and his implication that the Noah story simply arose from an Egyptian tradition - is based on the similarity of the spoken sound of the two phrases.... one of which happens to be MODERN ENGLISH. errrr.......

You are all write, you just can't believe anything you read or see on t.v. ANYTHING including religions all of them. Just live your life love and respect everything and everyone that all its simple don't make it harder then it is. xoox

Then come along the bloody yanks and just ruin it. Calling it Christianity and doing away with all the cool rituals and wearing those silly hats. Westerners ruin evrything! We had a good thing going here. And of course once they got Rome ahh, thier goes the neighborhood.

I am a theologian and can attest to the validity of many of the parralells drawn here between ancient religions and the newer monotheistic traditions. I am not however very familiar with Buddhism as it is more of a way of life than a real religion in the classical sence. I get in many arguements with Christians and Jews, the latter more than the former(it seems that the Jewish have a tradition of indoctrinating thier children with the underpinnings of Judaism very early in thier life) Unfortunately most of the traditions are not history. Like the Exodus, probably the most widely accepted and important Jewish tradition. One problem though, it probably never happened. We can find absolutedly no mention of any Jews being enslaved in Egypt at any time. If in fact they where as many and as important to politics and society as the Jews would have us believe- Don't you think at least one scribe would have recorded at least one transaction, event, court decision, death certificate, birth certificate, or reciept pertaining to a Jew or a Canaanite. If those horrible plagues the bible speaks of really decended on the cities would not one person have written about at least one of them or an incedent caused by them- nothing. And we are talking about people that didn't take a piss without carving it on a wall somewhere. A place that had a whole profession built around nothing but writing things down, a scribe. Its obviouse that most of the Jewish tradition is based on a desperate peoples attempt to keep thier identity in a world much larger than themselves. And it worked, look how well the stood against much larger more militant societies. Such is the power of belief that if you can make a man believe that he is the chosen, that he has a devine right to something, that he belongs to a group that has suffered and triumphed together- look out. He is now capable of anything and will die for his indentity. Funny how the very people that created the Judaic tradition are the ones that just so happen to be the chosen ones. They wrote the bible and are its main benefactors- the chosen people. Doesn't that make you think? Reminds me of the Pirates of the Carribean when they are trying to vote on a king and everyone votes for themselves- so no majority and hence no king has ever been elected. I suppose thats what it would be like with religion, "Who are the chosen ones?"-everyone steps forward. So maybe it is best that the authors went ahead and claimed the title, besides it was thier story so they can tell it like they want I suppose.

I'm pretty sure that all the information presented about Buddha is false. But then again all the other information presented seems to be true. That's kinda odd. But then again I guess Buddhism is not really a religion. Or I guess, based on "divine power". But rather more of a self help program. :D

This short narrative is very accurate.All of their comparisions have been known for scores of years.There are 9 jesus stories,all of which have the same scenario.As long as death remains a mystery,there will be religion,the greatest killer of mankind.

sorry, but you are wrong.. :p
What you are saying is true for most buddhists, but yo can't really ever say Buddhism, as in "all buddhists", because there are so many different interpretations, and so many different types of Buddhism..

BUT, I personally agree with you. I do not think that Gautama was anything more than you and me :)

No, that is not right either. One of the main pillars of Buddhism is the rejection of any god/divine figures. Any such mention are merely for metaphorical use. Buddhists believe that "salvation," as in the end of suffering, can only come through personal effort and mindfulness. There is no need or place for divine figures.

Also, Buddhists believe that there have been countless buddhas throughout history, because anyone can become enlightened. Anyone can be a Buddha. Gotama was just a guy who preached what he came to know as the truth. Gotama was just like you and me. :)

"Buddha was not a god, he was a prince". Well, that depends.. According to theravada buddhism he was no more than a prince, but according to mahayana buddhism he was some kind of a god. I think many of you guys should check your own sources.. :) The documentary however was not that convincing. (I appologise if my spelling sucks, im just a random norwegian guy)

Is's amusing watching the religious react when their beliefs are scrutinized. They always, and I mean always, react with hostility. How many comments on this doc are basically identical... haha. It's all wrong!!! They don't have the facts!!! Where's their proof!!! Haha. Can you imagine religious people demanding proof... of anything. So much of their lives are based on belief in an unprovable and unfalsifable "faith." Grow up people. There is no Santa Claus.

I can provide the proofs and documents for proving them wrong. They tried hard to compare things, but that is absolutely a big failure. I suggest, being such big historians and scholars, they should not go according to one book. read each and every book of that particular religion and then make a documentary. Please do not give such wrong insights.

Krishna was not crucified, he was not born to a virgin mother, he did not cure a leper, all the facts they discussed about Krishna and Buddha are wrong. And I have the proof.

I have been researching religion for over 17 years and I can tell that all the information depicted in this doc is actually more accurate than you may allow yourself to believe. Krishna was originally translated in early English spelled as it is used in this doc. You think it is misspelled but that just shows your ignorance on the subject.

The Quran was written after the Old Testement of the Bible and is eclyptic to it and therefore all you are reading is the same stories.

John Zeng I urge you to do more research on the translations of the Dalai Llama! Your translations are current misrepresentations of it...as usual.

The most interesting thing that i find in these comments is that not one of you who are against this actually give adequate proof that debunks. The point is that it is obvious that not one of you have done any research or investigation on the matter. However, people always want to talk first before action.

"And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah,
And the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah.
That is their saying with their mouths, resembling
The saying of those who disbelieved aforetime.
Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded from
Truth. Qura'an Chapter 9:30

"O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the(Jewish)
rabbis and the (Christian) monks who devour the wealth of
mankind in falsehood, and hinder (them) from the way of
Allah (i.e. Allah's religion of Islamic Monotheism). And
those who hoard up gold and silver (Al-Kanz: the money,
the Zakat (obligatory charity) of which has not been
paid) and spend them not in the way of Allah,
Announce them a painful torment.
Qur'an Chapter 9:34

Allah is a fairy tale for the weak-minded and Muhammad was a manipulative, child molesting POS. Anybody that could make themselves believe the endless stream of b.s. spewed out by the Qur'an is hopelessly brainwashed and stupid. It's even worse than sh** in the Bible. Just seeing this Qur'anic discharge on my computer screen makes the bile rise in my throat.

nariman J
- 01/27/2012 at 10:08

Source? I am not islamic, but have read the Qu'ran and I fail to see what you saw, homie. From a philosophical level it's the same stuff; people, and their lack of imagination or logical reasoning ruin, all kinds of great stuff.

Gedion G
- 02/16/2010 at 06:29

thanx for the comments above especially john zheng, i don't have to waste time over this doc.

Everyone that speaks in this doc is a renowned researcher, educator and intellectual. Stop telling us their facts are wrong unless you're going to tell us why. Do you honestly think some of the most respected academic minds of this generation aren't going to do their homework?

I can guarantee if you asked for sources they would be provided for you without hesitation. Retards.

Fish
1. any of various cold-blooded, aquatic vertebrates, having gills, commonly fins, and typically an elongated body covered with scales.
2. (loosely) any of various other aquatic animals.
3. the flesh of fishes used as food.
4. Fishes, Astronomy, Astrology. the constellation or sign of Pisces.
5. Informal. a person: an odd fish; a poor fish.
6. a long strip of wood, iron, etc., used to strengthen a mast, joint, etc.
7. Cards Slang. an incompetent player whose incompetence can be exploited.
8. Slang. a dollar: He sold the car for 500 fish.
9. Slang. a new prison inmate.

I refuse to finish the movie because 25 minutes into it, and i am almost sick of the inaccuracies. The Buddha. The Dalai Lama. Krishna. I'm sorry, unless they are referring to totally different ones to the ones i know, this is a load of holy shit!

I don't know what the real intention of this documentary is, while it is bluffed about many so called " truth". My favourite one is "Dalai Lama". In the film it says: "Dalai" sounds similar to Latin word-- god "Deus", and "Lama" sounds like "lamb" in English. So Dalai Lama means "Lamb of God". Where as the true meaning of "Dalai" means "Ocean" in Mongolian, and is a translation of the Tibetan name "Gyatso," while "Lama" is the Tibetan equivalent of the Sanskrit word "guru." The full title is "Ocean Teacher" meaning a teacher who is spiritually as deep as the ocean.

The 'so called' facts are from a book called World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors by Kersey Graves, which even atheist scholars deride as being hopelessly inaccurate. This was because Graves did not use primary sources, but instead got a lot of his research from an earlier source 'The Anacalypsis', by Sir Godfrey Higgins, who also did not check his 'so called facts'.

What started as something interesting, now looks hopelessly embarrassing.

Although (as a theology professor and pastor) I must agree with many of the objections to the damage religions have done, but this is all too one sided and totally biased. Religions have done a lot of good, though they do need to change as they are out of date.

I thought it was nevertheless a fascinating documentary, though would have been a lot better had the presenters had first checked their facts.

There were far too many obvious mistakes far too many to mention, but especially about the gods from other religions (Horus, Buddha and Krishna) which made it quite embarrassing as they were just repeating what earlier writers had wrongly stated.

A real shame because it obscures the fact that what they said in the beginning is actually true and religions do need to change.

It is difficult to take someone seriously as a linguistics scholar, when he keeps saying "FISHES"...

A lot of his facts seem to be based on the similiarity between ancient languages and modern english. Fx Argha-Noa and Ark of Noah... except the "Ark of Noah" is called the Tevat Noach in hebrew and doesnt sound anything like argha-noa. This is just one example of many.

The film played to the end without problems for me. This is an amazing presentation--logical and clear, revealing just how gullible we have been in following any of the present day religions. We may think the Egyptians, Romans, or Greeks were foolish in their beliefs, their myths, but guess what folks we are no wiser today than they were.
Religion = Mythology!!! Will humans ever be free of this ridiculous nonsense?

Kenneth did not show any signs of 'indoctrination,' nor did he 'call it all lies.' He (and many other knowledgeable people) said that some of the 'facts' given about Krishna and Buddha were incorrect. The doc may be 'filled' with facts, but it also has quite a number of inaccuracies claiming to be facts, which could have / should have been checked, and probably weren't because the directors were biased toward a certain theory or point of view.

The information provided in this documentary is inaccurate...
Especially the references to eastern religious facts pertaining the Buddha or Krishna...Not only does that raise questions about the credibility of the producers and research but also is a matter of insensitivity towards the people from who's land these facts emerge form...Also the fact the the sources for all the given information has not been provided raises serious questions about the arrogance of the writers and research team and the possibility that they may have just as easily fabricated much of this information(this with reference to certain information about biblical characters)...Finally the interpretations that have been taken into consideration too must be recognised as nothing but interpretations, that there are other valid rational interpretations to the animal sacrifice Eg: sheep and cattle were most convenient to domesticate....