Ugh. I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.

Rincewind53:Ugh. I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.

Yet another reason to thank my friend the computer tech for this laptop. It's got 7, and a lovely Windows 8 sticker on the bottom. Here's hoping I never see 8 in action live.

FriarReb98:Rincewind53: Ugh. I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.

Yet another reason to thank my friend the computer tech for this laptop. It's got 7, and a lovely Windows 8 sticker on the bottom. Here's hoping I never see 8 in action live.

I'm seriously considering downgrading. Yes, it'll cost me some money, but honestly I don't think that's such a big deal. I'm going to give Windows 8 about a month until I get used to it, and then I'll decide. Right now my anger has turned down to just a low simmer, so I see positive things in the future.

Rincewind53:8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.

I just hated that it opened it in full-screen mode. I know this sounds crazy, but sometimes I like to have two PDFs open at the same time and view them side-by-side.

For me, I'd have to spend so much time tweaking and hammering away at Windows 8 to make it usable for me, it's just not worth my time for a handful of minor upgrades.

But, if you think Windows 8 is stupid, just try dealing with Server 2012. It's basically the same as Windows 8, because you know... no one uses the start button and everyone has touch screens on their servers.

Rincewind53:I'm seriously considering downgrading. Yes, it'll cost me some money, but honestly I don't think that's such a big deal. I'm going to give Windows 8 about a month until I get used to it, and then I'll decide. Right now my anger has turned down to just a low simmer, so I see positive things in the future.

I dealt with it for about a week. The final straw for me was that you couldn't view/modify wireless profiles anymore.

Cubansaltyballs:I just hated that it opened it in full-screen mode. I know this sounds crazy, but sometimes I like to have two PDFs open at the same time and view them side-by-side.

For me, I'd have to spend so much time tweaking and hammering away at Windows 8 to make it usable for me, it's just not worth my time for a handful of minor upgrades.

But, if you think Windows 8 is stupid, just try dealing with Server 2012. It's basically the same as Windows 8, because you know... no one uses the start button and everyone has touch screens on their servers.

Right? I fundamentally don't understand the idea of essentially forcing people to operate in a world without a taskbar. I mean, right now I have Steam, Spotify, iTunes, Word, Notepad, Task Manager, Calculator, Chrome, and two instances of Explorer open on my screen. I can see exactly what's going on, and I can select each one of them with an incredibly small flick of the mouse.

With the Metro UI, if I'm in an App, I have no idea what other apps I have open unless I go and check for them! That's way more inefficient. It's like on my smartphone, which is inefficient because it's on a tiny screen and therefore can't use the same space.

Steve Ballmer is nuts if he thought this was a good direction for Microsoft. Metro is a pretty decent tablet OS and they should be commended for it, honestly. It made it so that you can have tablets that essentially act as traditional computers, in a way that iOS never allows for. But Windows 8 is clearly not designed for laptops or desktops, and it sure as hell isn't designed for work environments. Which is why it's such a bad business move, because Microsoft has always been a company that tried to cater to the Enterprise market and business markets in general. And it's like suddenly they threw up their hands and said "you know what? That one thing that we kick Apple's ass in and that helps fund all out other shiat? No one wants that anymore! fark it! Tablets and touch is the wave of the future! THROW ALL THE MONEY AT IT!"

Just got a new computer, it came with win 8. I was about to bite the bullet and pay to downgrade, but then someone in another thread mentioned Classic Shell. Restores you start menu, works on 8.1, and is completely free. It helps a whole hell of a lot. Give it a try before downgrading.

Pokey.Clyde:Just got a new computer, it came with win 8. I was about to bite the bullet and pay to downgrade, but then someone in another thread mentioned Classic Shell. Restores you start menu, works on 8.1, and is completely free. It helps a whole hell of a lot. Give it a try before downgrading.

I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8. I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8. I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category. EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems. 8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8. And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8. I just don't like it. And, no, I'm not going to get over it.

I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8. I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8. I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category. EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems. 8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8. And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8. I just don't like it. And, no, I'm not going to get over it.

I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8. I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8. I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category. EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems. 8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8. And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8. I just don't like it. And, no, I'm not going to get over it.

7 has an "XP" mode. No such option (i.e., "7 mode") for 8?

Nope. However, you get full downgrade rights back to 7 Pro if you have Windows 8 Pro.

xanadian:I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8. I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8. I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category. EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems. 8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8. And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8. I just don't like it. And, no, I'm not going to get over it.

I agree entirely. I just don't think there are a lot of bennies in it for Microsoft, anywhere other than the tablet market and a limited sector of the home market caused by people buying new computers during this OS cycle. I just cannot see Microsoft having any success making money off of 8 in the business sector, which is by far their largest profit driver. I think they're going to see businesses refuse to update.

Rincewind53:Cubansaltyballs: I just hated that it opened it in full-screen mode. I know this sounds crazy, but sometimes I like to have two PDFs open at the same time and view them side-by-side.

For me, I'd have to spend so much time tweaking and hammering away at Windows 8 to make it usable for me, it's just not worth my time for a handful of minor upgrades.

But, if you think Windows 8 is stupid, just try dealing with Server 2012. It's basically the same as Windows 8, because you know... no one uses the start button and everyone has touch screens on their servers.

Right? I fundamentally don't understand the idea of essentially forcing people to operate in a world without a taskbar. I mean, right now I have Steam, Spotify, iTunes, Word, Notepad, Task Manager, Calculator, Chrome, and two instances of Explorer open on my screen. I can see exactly what's going on, and I can select each one of them with an incredibly small flick of the mouse.

With the Metro UI, if I'm in an App, I have no idea what other apps I have open unless I go and check for them! That's way more inefficient. It's like on my smartphone, which is inefficient because it's on a tiny screen and therefore can't use the same space.

Steve Ballmer is nuts if he thought this was a good direction for Microsoft. Metro is a pretty decent tablet OS and they should be commended for it, honestly. It made it so that you can have tablets that essentially act as traditional computers, in a way that iOS never allows for. But Windows 8 is clearly not designed for laptops or desktops, and it sure as hell isn't designed for work environments. Which is why it's such a bad business move, because Microsoft has always been a company that tried to cater to the Enterprise market and business markets in general. And it's like suddenly they threw up their hands and said "you know what? That one thing that we kick Apple's ass in and that helps fund all out other shiat? No one wants that anymore! fark it! Tablets and touch is the wa ...

The Metro UI sections aren't designed for desktops or laptops, I agree. Thankfully, you rarely run into them on a desktop or laptop once you've set things up how you like. The only time I ever see Metro is when I need to launch a program that I haven't pinned to the taskbar, which is pretty rare. Everything else I do entirely in desktop mode, and Win8 is fine with that.

There's a lot of hate for Metro when it's easy to avoid Metro. The Start Screen vs Start Menu isn't a big deal to me, they're equally functional. You don't ever have to use Metro apps on the desktop.

Rincewind53:I'm seriously considering downgrading. Yes, it'll cost me some money, but honestly I don't think that's such a big deal. I'm going to give Windows 8 about a month until I get used to it, and then I'll decide. Right now my anger has turned down to just a low simmer, so I see positive things in the future.

Don't downgrade. I run 8.1 on my desktop, 7 in my work virtual machine. I spend the majority of my time in Win7. 8 is better in almost every sense. I've not bothered with a start menu replacement - I just took a couple minutes to arrange it in a way that makes sense for me. It got a lot better when I realized you can just start typing while in the start menu to bring up any damned program you please.

xanadian:8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

Really? A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?

Babwa Wawa:xanadian: 8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

Really? A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?

On 8? Or Server 2012? I'll admit, I haven't been exposed to Server 2012. And, yes, I know about the reduced boot time. And 8 has a smaller footprint on your hard drive, too, IIRC. I'm just talking about the usability curve, if you're used to 7...where the desktop hasn't changed all that much since 95. And saying 'sucks' is probably too harsh of a word. I don't *hate* 8. I just don't prefer it.

I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8. I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8. I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category. EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems. 8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8. And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8. I just don't like it. And, no, I'm not going to get over it.

7 has an "XP" mode. No such option (i.e., "7 mode") for 8?

"XP Mode" in 7 is more of a virtual machine kind of thingee. It sets up a sandbox in which Windows XP runs. I'm sure you could load other OSes in there, but IIRC, they have to be Windows-based. Unlike something like VMWare or VirtualBox, where it doesn't matter.

/sadly, limited exposure to virtualization here//picking it up as I go along

Rincewind53:I'm seriously considering downgrading. Yes, it'll cost me some money, but honestly I don't think that's such a big deal. I'm going to give Windows 8 about a month until I get used to it, and then I'll decide. Right now my anger has turned down to just a low simmer, so I see positive things in the future.

Already did. Not just because Windows 8 idiotic UI but it reintroduced bugs that were fixed in 7.

doyner:Rincewind53: I think they're going to see businesses refuse to update.

Good.

Businesses will get on board. Windows 8 is better than 7 in terms of security, and that alone is a big bonus. Eventually MS will stop offering the option to use 7 on new machines, and when that happens and businesses upgrade their computers, they'll use 8. They aren't going to spend 2x as much on hardware to use Apple, and Linux won't win out from an enterprise software support or user-friendliness POV.

That being said, more businesses are moving towards thin clients these days anyway, which work fine for basic office work.

TuteTibiImperes:Businesses will get on board. Windows 8 is better than 7 in terms of security, and that alone is a big bonus. Eventually MS will stop offering the option to use 7 on new machines, and when that happens and businesses upgrade their computers, they'll use 8. They aren't going to spend 2x as much on hardware to use Apple, and Linux won't win out from an enterprise software support or user-friendliness POV.

No way businesses will get on board. Windows 8 is too radical of a change and offers zero security advantages over 7. I'm just assuming right now that you are a paid shill from Microsoft.

gingerjet:TuteTibiImperes: Businesses will get on board. Windows 8 is better than 7 in terms of security, and that alone is a big bonus. Eventually MS will stop offering the option to use 7 on new machines, and when that happens and businesses upgrade their computers, they'll use 8. They aren't going to spend 2x as much on hardware to use Apple, and Linux won't win out from an enterprise software support or user-friendliness POV.

No way businesses will get on board. Windows 8 is too radical of a change and offers zero security advantages over 7. I'm just assuming right now that you are a paid shill from Microsoft.

First of all, it's not very different from 7 in the desktop mode. For business use where they'll be rolling out dozens or hundreds of machines all with identically imaged hard drives with the necessary office software already installed and the desktop set up for their business needs, it won't be an issue. The shortcuts to Office, IE, and whatever else will be preloaded on the taskbar, and in most cases business systems run software that prevents the user from messing with settings or have IT policies that prohibit individual users from changing thing around anyway. When it boils down to it most business users will barely notice the change.

As far as security goes, improvements to Windows Defender, Secure Boot, Smart Screen, and future versions of IE that will only run on 8 and above will win the day. Windows 8 also comes with more tools to allow IT departments to access and manage individual machines remotely.

Windows 8 is an attempt at a skin tight, asexual garmet for both men and women made of solid steel. For some hardware, it's good here but pinches there. For other hadware, there is fine but here is being crushed. It's only useable if you break out the hammer and tongs and really dish that sommabich in some very sensitive areas that should have been thought of and perfected first.

I've gotten used to 8.1. With Classic Shell it isn't that annoying to use once you get used to it and find out where they hid things. Out of the box it is a pain in the ass. When you have to google how to shut the damn thing down something is wrong.

I apparently weird though in that I like server 2012, especially R2. The dashboard is pretty handy, they fixed the event viewer so it doesn't take 5 minutes to load the error list, and it seems to be a lot faster than 2008 R2. It is kind of odd when it asks you to shut down your pc though.

The task manager is a lot better in 8, where it merged perfmon and task manager so you can see which app is eating up all of your IO.

It would be nice to be able to write and spread Metro apps without them having to go through the app store.

Since this is a windows thread: bought a new laptop a while back, and I spent quite literally 4-5 hours uninstalling shiat to make it run less like frozen liquid shiat.

It still doesn't run worth a damn. The hardware in it isn't -great- by any means, but I can't help but think that windows 8 and Lenovo bloatware just wreck it.

So my question is: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...

B) Are there any linux distros that aren't shiat, have drivers, and are as easy to use as Windows XP or 7 were? I don't really enjoy using computers, so I don't want to deal with...anything. I just want an OS that runs stable, relatively quick, and lets me browse and/or watch netflix (Note: this laptop is strictly for living room 'looking shiat up' use, with the rare travel use).

C) Anyone had good exp with a chromebook? Do they run any programs at all? I've got a couple thin game clients I run regularly that I would miss.

Yeah, you get full blown Hyper-V on Windows 8. You can even do NPIV, which is nuts. I always wanted to run Server on my laptop so I had a quickie mobile lab, but then I had to run without a virus scanner unless I wanted to crack open the installer with ORCA.

The TFA's point about the clickable start menu is inaccurate. It's better because "hovering" doesn't work well in RDP clients, and the shortcut keys don't work in all clients either. So bringing up the start menu in RDP sessions required contortions in Windows 8, and don't in Windows 8.1

gingerjet:With an SSD - Windows 7 boots in 7 seconds. Windows 8 in 12 seconds. You aren't very good at this are you?

Hunh? Maybe on the initial install, but probably not after stuff's been installed on it, and certainly not after the things been under use for a while. In my experience Windows 8 was every bit as fast the day I installed it 18 months previous. And objectively Win8 and 8.1 is less resource intensive than Windows 7. Win7 was barely usable on Atom processors, where Win8 runs pretty damned well on it.

I find the whole thing about start menus kind of fascinating. I never had a whole lot of fondness of the old style. I'd pin stuff that I use regularly to it, and while I rarely went beyond the first menu level, it was always a bit slow doing so. I find navigation a lot quicker with the new menu. Plus, the old menu is straight up nonsensical for touch interfaces.

Frankly, it reminds me of the people who griped over WYSIWYG word processing, the Office ribbon, and the automatic transmission. With all three, expert users were somewhat slowed down by the new features, they generally got over it quickly. Not to mention that all three are necessary in order to take full advantage of the available features in their respective platforms.

gingerjet:Babwa Wawa: Really? A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?

With an SSD - Windows 7 boots in 7 seconds. Windows 8 in 12 seconds. You aren't very good at this are you?

How often are modern computers rebooted anyway? Sleep and hibernate are very reliable on 7 if you don't have problematic hardware. Saving 4 seconds once a month when I reboot for Windows updates is not a big deal compared to the productivity loss of having to relearn the UI.

The good news is that the rumors are that Microsoft is back tracking and is going to kill Win RT and replace it with what will basically be the Windows Phone version of "Ice Cream Sandwich" that is tweaked to work on both tablets and phones, with Atom-based Windows tablets taking over the RT segment. Hopefully that means that somewhere along the line, a "Win 7" mode will be added for companies that want 8 but don't want to spend money retraining all their employees on the Start Screen. There's some nice things about the Start Screen, but for a lot of users it kills their productivity because of the learning curve. Also, having to juggle two very different UIs doing work just screws with people's productivity. Win 8 is basically two different OSes glued together and it doesn't commit to either one.

kroonermanblack:A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...

You can generally call the vendor's support number and they will send you a Windows install disk. At least this is what I did with Dellsbefore I got an MSDN subscription.

kroonermanblack:Since this is a windows thread: bought a new laptop a while back, and I spent quite literally 4-5 hours uninstalling shiat to make it run less like frozen liquid shiat.It still doesn't run worth a damn. The hardware in it isn't -great- by any means, but I can't help but think that windows 8 and Lenovo bloatware just wreck it.

Babwa Wawa:hardinparamedic: To be quite honest, if you have a windows genuine sticker on your laptop, you can download the ISO corresponding to that and, using that CD Key, be perfectly legal.

Interesting. I've never tried that. Does it activate OK using Microsoft's servers?

Not quite the case. A lot of times the installs used for OEM laptops are special OEM versions, so you would need a specific image to use the key on your laptop. This was a real pain when I was working the student help desk through college, because we'd have the college's Win XP disc, but the keys on the student laptops were specific to Dell , HP, Compaq, Gateway, etc, so we'd always have to ask the students to bring their discs for their computer if they had them.

kroonermanblack:Since this is a windows thread: bought a new laptop a while back, and I spent quite literally 4-5 hours uninstalling shiat to make it run less like frozen liquid shiat.

It still doesn't run worth a damn. The hardware in it isn't -great- by any means, but I can't help but think that windows 8 and Lenovo bloatware just wreck it.

So my question is: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...

B) Are there any linux distros that aren't shiat, have drivers, and are as easy to use as Windows XP or 7 were? I don't really enjoy using computers, so I don't want to deal with...anything. I just want an OS that runs stable, relatively quick, and lets me browse and/or watch netflix (Note: this laptop is strictly for living room 'looking shiat up' use, with the rare travel use).

C) Anyone had good exp with a chromebook? Do they run any programs at all? I've got a couple thin game clients I run regularly that I would miss.

Debian Wheezy works well. Unless you deviate from stable I doubt you'll have any issues. Ubuntu if you have more common/popular hardware, would go with Ubuntu. Actually, would have a go with Ubuntu first, then Debian Mint then Wheezy. Sure there's some in between to try. Even with as much screwing around as I have on my Dell Studio 1569, I haven't had any issues with Wheezy. Trading off for more stable vs more latest greatest.

Why is it that Microsoft alternates between good OS's and bad OS's? Since Windows 95, only every other new incarnation is good. Windows 98, Windows 2000/Me, Windows Vista, and now Windows 8 are all crap operating systems. Who do they need to fire to break the cycle?

THEY'RE NOT F*CKING APPS, THEY ARE PROGRAMS, AND AN OS SHOULD NOT JUST BE A WALLED GARDEN APP-DELIVERY SYSTEM.

/rant over

THIS^^^

Angry Birds and Spotify are "apps", Word, Autocad, Adobe Photoshop and 3d Studio Max are programs.When I'm on my workstation (that I built at home) I use programs. When I'm on my smartphone or tablet, I use apps. Microsoft seems to be too stupid to figure this out.

I setup a Winblows 8 laptop for a colleague of my wife's last week. Damned thing drove me up the wall until I got 8.1 loaded and then bought the StartIsBack app. In the end, there was barely any need ever to see a tiled app.

Here's the thing - tiled apps behave in a completely different way from old-school (proper) apps, and you end up having to know how to navigate both kinds. Given that the laptop owner barely knew how to use Winblows 7-style interfaces, I'd have been dead in the water trying to teach her both kinds.

Come on, Micro$oft, give it up. Keep the tiles crap for tablets, and stick to the main game on laptops and desktops. Oh, and stop the flat, monochrome icon shiat and the all-caps menus too, for fark's sake.