ballhair wrote:Relictele, will you be Ben's Presenter when he is enshrined in the Pro football hall of fame? He is going to be in the HOF right?

Yes he will be and yes I would be proud to present a fellow MU alum.

HaHa, well that explains it, a fellow MU alum. There is usually a personal reason why someone completely ignores the facts and fervently defends a person no matter what. That is ok. I get it. Just my 2 cents about BR7 and what was said in this thread.1) Many people plan the birth of their child to coincide with their work. Examples, Teachers. Many use their fingers and toes to calculate and cipher when the baby will come. Most teachers plan this for the summer when their off. They do this not to disrupt their class (job). You would think the same thing would apply to a QB making over a 100 mill a year working 7-8 months out of the year to have the same consideration for their job? No? Now if the pregnancy wasn't planned, that is a whole different story.2) In those Rape allegations, Ben paid off people not to peruse the issue. Do you really think that a drunken Ben knew what no means?3) In SB1, Ben had a 22 rating, enough said. In SB2, Harrison turned that game around. Although Ben threw a nice pass at the end to win it, Holmes made just as a nice if not better catch to win. SB3, couldn't get it done when it counted. Ben had a lot of good performances here, but don't point to his below average SB performances.4) Ben has 24 fourth quarter comebacks. How many fourth quarter chokes does he have? They don't keep that stat.5) Don't you just love when Ben freezes in that pocket, (like a deer in the headlights) right before he takes a sack, instead of throwing the ball away? Priceless.6) After watching Ben for 10 years I believe he is as good as he ever is going to be. I don't think he is the smartest QB in the world. I'm glad we got him when we did though. I thought Ben was a top five QB in this league at one time but boy has his skills eroded. I see all these young Qb's in the league now (RG3, Luck,Wilson,newton,SFqb, dalton, ponder to name a few who are winning games with less talent than Ben supposedly has around him. You have the number one defense in the league and an 8-8 record (hopefully). WHY? NO OFFENSE. WHO leads the offense? All I'm saying is Ben is far from the superstar that a lot of homer fans make him out to be. Other than that I'm sure he is a nice young man.

ballhair wrote:3) In SB1, Ben had a 22 rating, enough said. In SB2, Harrison turned that game around. Although Ben threw a nice pass at the end to win it, Holmes made just as a nice if not better catch to win. SB3, couldn't get it done when it counted. Ben had a lot of good performances here, but don't point to his below average SB performances.4) Ben has 24 fourth quarter comebacks. How many fourth quarter chokes does he have? They don't keep that stat.5) Don't you just love when Ben freezes in that pocket, (like a deer in the headlights) right before he takes a sack, instead of throwing the ball away? Priceless.6) After watching Ben for 10 years I believe he is as good as he ever is going to be. I don't think he is the smartest QB in the world. I'm glad we got him when we did though. I thought Ben was a top five QB in this league at one time but boy has his skills eroded. I see all these young Qb's in the league now (RG3, Luck,Wilson,newton,SFqb, dalton, ponder to name a few who are winning games with less talent than Ben supposedly has around him. You have the number one defense in the league and an 8-8 record (hopefully). WHY? NO OFFENSE. WHO leads the offense? All I'm saying is Ben is far from the superstar that a lot of homer fans make him out to be. Other than that I'm sure he is a nice young man.

3 & 4) It's actually strange how ben looked clutch in the fourth quarter while shrinking in the big games.5) the same people that say that he takes too many sacks would quickly say that he is playing with fear after the FIRST ball he throws away. It is a dumb move that he makes sometimes. But sometimes he gets a great play out of nothing. Anyway the guy is ready to sacrifice his body for the cause. While I understand the anger I appreciate the effort6) Ben will not improve. He never seemed like a "student" of the game. Like a Manning, a Brady or even a Wilson. He goes out there and he improvises. That's Ben. We can take him or leave him. He got us two SB. Fair Enough. Considering that an average QB life is 14 years ( making it 2004 - 2018 ). One SB every 7 years is not bad. While I understand that there are others who have won more with less, I love our result. I just think that due to his style of play he will not be with us in three years. Let's draft somebody with a second or a third round. Think it is time to start preparing. I think that ben was affected by something this year. Time will tell if it was his son or some unreported injury. Let's just hope for the best

ballhair wrote:3) In SB1, Ben had a 22 rating, enough said. In SB2, Harrison turned that game around. Although Ben threw a nice pass at the end to win it, Holmes made just as a nice if not better catch to win. SB3, couldn't get it done when it counted. Ben had a lot of good performances here, but don't point to his below average SB performances.4) Ben has 24 fourth quarter comebacks. How many fourth quarter chokes does he have? They don't keep that stat.5) Don't you just love when Ben freezes in that pocket, (like a deer in the headlights) right before he takes a sack, instead of throwing the ball away? Priceless.6) After watching Ben for 10 years I believe he is as good as he ever is going to be. I don't think he is the smartest QB in the world. I'm glad we got him when we did though. I thought Ben was a top five QB in this league at one time but boy has his skills eroded. I see all these young Qb's in the league now (RG3, Luck,Wilson,newton,SFqb, dalton, ponder to name a few who are winning games with less talent than Ben supposedly has around him. You have the number one defense in the league and an 8-8 record (hopefully). WHY? NO OFFENSE. WHO leads the offense? All I'm saying is Ben is far from the superstar that a lot of homer fans make him out to be. Other than that I'm sure he is a nice young man.

3 & 4) It's actually strange how ben looked clutch in the fourth quarter while shrinking in the big games.5) the same people that say that he takes too many sacks would quickly say that he is playing with fear after the FIRST ball he throws away. It is a dumb move that he makes sometimes. But sometimes he gets a great play out of nothing. Anyway the guy is ready to sacrifice his body for the cause. While I understand the anger I appreciate the effort6) Ben will not improve. He never seemed like a "student" of the game. Like a Manning, a Brady or even a Wilson. He goes out there and he improvises. That's Ben. We can take him or leave him. He got us two SB. Fair Enough. Considering that an average QB life is 14 years ( making it 2004 - 2018 ). One SB every 7 years is not bad. While I understand that there are others who have won more with less, I love our result. I just think that due to his style of play he will not be with us in three years. Let's draft somebody with a second or a third round. Think it is time to start preparing. I think that ben was affected by something this year. Time will tell if it was his son or some unreported injury. Let's just hope for the best

Number 5). Ben hardly scrambles anymore, he just goes down . Do you remember the Browns game at home last year, the one he got hurt in and pretty much ended any shot at a Super Bowl.? He had was 15 yards behind the line of scrimmage right next to the sidelines before he let the Stain lineman grab him and body slam him. From where he took the snap to where he ended up, he probably ran 30-35 yards. The dumbass didn't have anyone open and still didn't throw it away. This one play says a lot about Ben to me, like he isn't that smart.

ballhair wrote:There is usually a personal reason why someone completely ignores the facts and fervently defends a person no matter what.

You're going to fall back on the lazy message board routine of a difference of opinion equating to one party "completely ignoring the facts" while supplying your own views (and those unassailable of course)? You can do better than that sort of tired, fallacious rhetorical trick.

1) Many people plan the birth of their child to coincide with their work. Examples, Teachers. Many use their fingers and toes to calculate and cipher when the baby will come. Most teachers plan this for the summer when their off. They do this not to disrupt their class (job). You would think the same thing would apply to a QB making over a 100 mill a year working 7-8 months out of the year to have the same consideration for their job? No? Now if the pregnancy wasn't planned, that is a whole different story.

Fallacy of Appeal To Majority: everyone else does it therefore so should we. You have breezed past the original point - perhaps intentionally. To repeat: football is not life and vice versa. I'm really not bothered about when teachers or firemen or dogcatchers or quarterbacks or professional golfers have their children. But let's accept your premise for a moment: Phil Mickelson faced this very problem in 1999 and was praised in all quarters for declaring that he would abandon the US Open if childbirth intervened, despite contending for the championship. The reality is that many are looking for something, anything to complain about and criticize. I don't participate in economic voyeurism. Other people's salaries are none of my business, especially if my only connection to them is watching a sporting event. I certainly wouldn't presume to categorically pass judgement on someone else's actions.

2) In those Rape allegations, Ben paid off people not to peruse the issue. Do you really think that a drunken Ben knew what no means?

Oh they perused it all right. Prosecutors wrote briefs and the world got to read and watch and opine. But I think you meant 'pursue.' I have no way of knowing one way or the other what Ben was thinking then or now. I also can't predict what my neighbor is having for breakfast tomorrow. I thought psychic ability was rare and unproven but we seem to have attracted a critical mass of infallible mind readers here.

If posters are going to accuse other posters of 'completely ignoring facts' then why won't they countenance the lack of legal charges being brought? Does anyone remember Duke Lacrosse, Crystal Mangum and Mike Nifong? A prosecutor with political aspirations will gladly run roughshod over the law, especially if a high-profile case will improve his name recognition and chances at the polls. I don't know if such a thing occurred to the Georgia prosecutor but it would only have increased the pressure to bring charges especially in our highly-charged era of sexual politics. As it was, he took the coward's way out by airing his opinion outside a courtroom and in the process trashed any notion of due process since the accused had no opportunity to defend himself.

3) In SB1, Ben had a 22 rating, enough said. In SB2, Harrison turned that game around. Although Ben threw a nice pass at the end to win it, Holmes made just as a nice if not better catch to win. SB3, couldn't get it done when it counted. Ben had a lot of good performances here, but don't point to his below average SB performances.

Well, you and I better rent a truck and drive up to Canton where we can break in and haul away the Hall of Fame busts of Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach et al and banish their memories due to lackluster form in some of their championships. I AM pointing to his postseason performances because a) a winning season is a prerequisite to the postseason, b) the Super Bowls would not have been reached without his contributions along with many others (team sport and all that). They have the trophies. He played the games, including the playoffs. He won the games. End of.

4) Ben has 24 fourth quarter comebacks. How many fourth quarter chokes does he have? They don't keep that stat.

Then why bring it up? Ask 80% of the league if they'd like this 'choker.' Forest, trees, etc.

5) Don't you just love when Ben freezes in that pocket, (like a deer in the headlights) right before he takes a sack, instead of throwing the ball away? Priceless.

Absolutely. His contract should be invalidated tonight, win or lose.

6) After watching Ben for 10 years I believe he is as good as he ever is going to be. I don't think he is the smartest QB in the world. I'm glad we got him when we did though. I thought Ben was a top five QB in this league at one time but boy has his skills eroded. I see all these young Qb's in the league now (RG3, Luck,Wilson,newton,SFqb, dalton, ponder to name a few who are winning games with less talent than Ben supposedly has around him. You have the number one defense in the league and an 8-8 record (hopefully). WHY? NO OFFENSE. WHO leads the offense? All I'm saying is Ben is far from the superstar that a lot of homer fans make him out to be. Other than that I'm sure he is a nice young man.

I'm perfectly willing to entertain the notion that he has plateaued but, as always, neither his successes nor his setbacks have occurred in a vacuum. But claiming his IQ is subpar despite earning a degree from a prestigious academic institution lies somewhere between misanthropy and throwing darts. Pray tell, what universities have you attended and what degrees have you received that qualify you to judge intellect?

The defense is a separate debate but suffice it to say that rankings and ratings are statistically suspect since the sample populations for each and every team are different week-to-week. It is a classic apples and oranges scenario. Ask the owner of this site what he thinks of the 'number one defense.' Anyone who knows me will confirm I'm the polar opposite of a homer. I freely criticize any team, unit or player even as others build a bubble of hype around them. But I'm also a realist and a completist, which means I don't measure a player against hypothetical standards. Instead, the evaluation is based on peer performance and available alternatives i.e. what available player would you trade him for, money notwithstanding?

I freely declare that I have subjective reasons for defending Ben Roethlisberger but there are plenty more objective ones.

I really thought that Steeler fans were a breed apart from other NFL fans and had little time for the sort of indolent, myopic 'our QB is a bum' nonsense so beloved of superficial fans in NYC, Chicago, Philly and elsewhere. For the most part this site is an even more clear-eyed subset of fans who eschew the conventional wisdom. I'm not sure why fans want to oversimplify a game involving dozens of players in uniform, a dozen coaches and equal helpings of both on the opposing sideline but the bandwagon never seems to be short of passengers whether it's rolling uphill or down. But, as the original conversation demonstrated, the Attribution Error of 'We Won/They Lost' is such an unshakeable part of human nature that it's never far away.

Reticle, I agree that without BR7 the Steelers are truly a pile of shit team. But there are some character issues with him that are hard to defend. Well one major problem: 2 Date rape allegations. Not just one, two. Yes they were whores who got what they deserved...but Ben is very lucky that prosecutor in Georgia wasn't politically ambitious. He was an old guy who wasn't running for anything. Had that been the usual political shitbag that start out as DAs and then see themselves in the White House... well they wouldn't have resisted a publicity filled trial and probably winning in front of a jury down in Georgia... a poor misled drunken college girl abused by a big rich athlete. His actions there aside from being cretinous were plain and utterly fucking stupid. And aren't we still waiting to see what the hospitality worker in Nevada is going to get from the big dumb ass?

Former Super Bowl quarterback and current CBS NFL analyst Boomer Esiason, unprovoked, tore into Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger Friday afternoon while being interviewed by Vinnie Richichi on the Vinnie and Cook Show on 93.7 The Fan.

Esiason said things like Roethlisberger “has to be a man” and questioned the possible life-threatening picture Roethlisberger painted with his rib injury that kept him out of three games earlier in the season.

Esiason said that people around the league were rolling their eyes when Roethlisberger divulged that his aorta was danger and thus his life because of a broken rib he suffered against the Chiefs.

“I am telling you that everybody across the NFL rolled their eyes like what is he, a drama queen or something?” Esiason said. “Everybody gets hurt, everybody is out there trying to do their best. You have Troy Polamalu who is hurt, you have James Harrison coming back from a knee injury. Everybody has something to deal with. While I am sure they have a great admiration and respect for Ben on Sundays because he is a heck of a football player, all the other little things that come along with him, I am sure probably upset some of those guys and they roll their eyes.”

Esiason, who has rarely if ever been in the Steelers locker room either during the season or after games, said that Roethlisberger has to be a better leader.

“Guys like Big Ben have to be the leader,” Esiason said. “He has to be a man. He has to stand up and be a man from Monday to Sunday not just on Sunday. Monday to Sunday. That’s what Tom Brady, that’s what Peyton Manning, that’s what Aaron Rodgers, that’s what Drew Brees — those four, in my estimation, are the four best quarterbacks in football. You look at them each and every week and they give you a performance that you can win with and they set the bar of expectation. It is not somebody else.”

Esiason continued.

“Ben has got two Super Bowl rings, he can do it, he is the guy who has to do it by, first and foremost, the example that he sets in the weight room, the meeting room, on the practice field and of course on Sunday,” he said.

Very entertaining thread indeed.... good to hear passionate fans chime in about the leadership on this team.Here is my two cents.

1) I actually laughed about the statement about the unplanned pregnancy thing. The reason is I agree Big Big should've either been smarter about the timing or really just let it all fly under the radar if not. I should of never had to read anything about him missing a possible critical game down the stretch. That is just ridiculous.

2) My biggest problem with this team has been the leadership. I think the number one blame has to be the head coach. I am sorry. I know Tomlin is such a likeable coach or whatever. I really believe Wiz should have gotten the nod and was shocked he went to Arizona. That was a BIG WTF moment as a Steeler fan. I do believe Tomlin was a direct result of wanting to practice what you preach (i.e. The Rooney Rule). I have been as objective as possible, and open minded, but I honestly don't think he adds anything to this team and is now a huge liability (this season is a brutal "slap in our face" example).

3) More along the lines of leadership is Haley. I don't think he adds any depth to the team and the predictable play calling is laughable. I think Ben is a very good QB but he needs coaches to let him be him. He's not going to change. A head coach and OC that will call plays to his strengths, not his weaknesses. Simple but true. That leads us to the Rooneys again. This team must be fixed from the top down.

4) Players not playing with passion or emotion. This is a HUGE problem. It is easy to pin this on the head coach but I'm not sure it's that simple. But I don't know where else to place the blame, I really don't. I watch the games now and I swear Heath Miller is the only true warrior out on that field. Troy when healthy is invaluable and right up there too. Behind those two is Big Ben. Let's put all the ranting aside, he is a very good QB and we are lucky to have this son of a bitch. He might need a big kick in the ass once in awhile (how I long for Cowher sometimes) but that bastard is our best shot for a 7th Super Bowl. We need someone to get this team fired up. Get the O Line to play the way they could play if they gelled. Someone to remind each and every one of them how much of a blessing it is to play is this league for this team. To quit celebrating first downs. Enough of that crap. I want all the D hitting out there like Clark. I love that passion. That is what this team needs.

So just to summarize. I think all of us on this thread (forum) are here because we are so passionate about this team. We agree on a lot of fixes are in order, just not sure which ones or who to start with. No sense bitching at each other nonstop as we can point outweaknesses in our arguments all day long. If we could somehow put this passion intokicking someone in the ass to get things done that would be something. I personally don'tknow anyone within the organization but would love to hear others chime in with some ideas.Now it's time to me to make my "teams I hate in the playoffs" list I make every year. If thetop 3 in that list don't win the Super Bowl, then everything is ok in the world again. Of coursethe Cheatriots are number one every year. Happy New Years to you guys!

"That was big for us. I said earlier this week that we wanted to come out and finish the year with a win and have a good feeling going into the offseason. That is what we did. I'm proud of the way the guys finished."

-- Ben Roethlsiberger

Alright! Big Benny can go off into the off season knowing everything is A-Ok. Hit some golf balls, Drink a few beers!

steelkings wrote:Ben Roethlisberger has many strengths and weaknesses. We marvel at his talents when he successfully scrambles around, dodging blitzers while buying time for one of his guys to get open. I still remember the 2005 AFC championship game in Denver when on 3rd down he scrambled to his left, and with a guy hanging on one leg, and while falling backwards he hits a streaking Hines Ward for a 17 yard TD pass in the back of the end zone. He threw that pass over two defensive backs in order to get it to Ward. Let us not also forget the almost perfect strike to Holmes to win a Super Bowl. I had the pleasure of following Roethlisberger as he took a Miami of Ohio team that resembled a large high school to one that knocked off two Big 10 teams and won the conference. I knew he was a winner right there. Its fun to watch Andrew Luck and RG3, not to mention Russell Wilson have so much success in their rookie seasons. However I will not forget the rookie season of Big Ben Roethlisberger.There is that other side of Roethlisberger that we need to acknowledge though. The one who's decision making skills have been questionable at best. On the field he has countless times held on to the ball far too long and taken big hits or taken sacks that have taken points away from the offense. His style of play begs defenses to pin their ears back and get after him. Year after year he takes big hits that knock him out for several games. This really takes its toll on the football team. Football is all about streaks and rhythm. There is the off the field issues that we became all to accustom too. From the head first no helmet crash, to the drunken frat party, to the 2 rape allegations. To the poorly planned, or unplanned pregnancy of his new wife. Before you give me grief over that last statement I'm going dig all the way in by saying that my QB should be able to count to 10 Months. That works if you plan that pregnancy. If you simply screw you wife till she is pregnant then perhaps that's poor family leadership. Or at very least poor family planning. I mean, isnt he a little busy between August and January?This all boils back to Roethlisberger's rookie season. He had some serious players around him. Some guys who were the spokesmen of the team. A lot of guys who the media primarily focused on. Every time the media focuses on Roethlisberger he melts down. Leadership is what a guy brings in big games. Leadership is how teams get through the tough parts of every season. You know, when you have to play a crappy San Diego team after a big big win the week before. Tom Brady would not have allowed his team to be poorly prepared. The Steelers down the stretch needed Ben Roethlisberger to put the team on his back and carry them through the mean part of the season. He could not even lift his own led lighting. Simply put, he is a player on a football team and not a leader. The Steelers badly need a vocal leader type player on this team. Three or 4 are more like it. Tomlin cant be that guy. He stands on the sidelines during battle. They need a Hines Ward type guy who knocks guys out on blocks. Or a Bettis who runs over guys and plays with emotion. A Joey Porter who gets in the opponents head during warm ups. Look at the fall off of the Baltimore Ravens when they lost Ray Lewis. People say that Farrior could no longer cover the zones and he had lost a step. Maybe true, but that guy led in the locker room. Where does that come from now. It doesn't. Its missing. And if the Steelers dont find it. 2013 will be more of the same.

Surely the leadership was questionable with it happens with each coach.. He can only guide but players need to implement..There was some serious big wins which make him special coach