Wednesday, June 14, 2006

Kosovo Reformist Party chairman meets Serb leader

Text of report by Radio-Television Kosovo TV on 13 June

[Announcer] ORA [Kosovo Reformist Party] Chairman Veton Surroi met today in northern Mitrovica Kosova Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic they discussed decentralization process. During the meeting Ivanovic presented to Surroi the newest Serb plan compiled by the Serb List for Kosova on decentralization. This plan foresees the forming of around 10 municipalities and as such it has been opposed by Minister of Local Government Lutfi Haziri.

[Kosova Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic in Serbian with Albanian voice-over] The next step is to have talks with the Contact Group on Friday where we are going to present our plan. Afterwards, it would be the right thing to meet with Kosova [Kosovo] Negotiation Team and discuss this issue. We want functional local government that meets the needs of citizens.

[Reporter] Kosova Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic believes that his plan on decentralization is more functional and it would be a compromise solution between Prishtina and Belgrade delegations on decentralization process.

Since you're such a great source finder, why don't you find me a source where it categorizes the victims exactly by ethnicity, age ans sex. Also I would like to see a source about the EXACT number of albanians killed. Make sure it is a valid international source.

Nice try Cvijus.How are you supposed to get a clear number of people killed when entire families were murdered. In some cases even entrire neighbourhoods. To make numbers even more hard to count the dead were then moved to Bajtanica and floating trucks in Danube-full of bodies-you remember that? It appears that serbs really knew what they were doing-(experience counts), just in case someone like you comes around asking for proof of numbers. So instead of asking these questions in this blog, why dont you ask some of your former and current military/political leaders. They might have the most accurate numbers.

Here is your international source-(it is from CNN so it might be Albanian influenced as you usually claim) :

UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- War crimes investigators have exhumed the bodies of 2,108 ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, a fraction of the thousands estimated killed during a brutal crackdown on the province by Yugoslav and Serb security forces, a U.N. prosecutor said Wednesday.

Carla Del Ponte, the chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia, briefed the Security Council in New York with the tribunal's preliminary findings.

"This figure does not necessarily reflect the total number of actual victims, because we have discovered evidence of tampering with graves," Del Ponte said. "There were also a significant number of sites where the precise number of bodies cannot be counted. In these places steps were taken to hide the evidence. Many bodies have been burned."

NATO halted the 18-month crackdown -- which forced hundreds of thousands of Albanians to flee the province -- with a 78-day bombing campaign that ended with the beginning of the Serb troop withdrawal on June 10. NATO peacekeeping troops, with war crimes investigators alongside, entered Kosovo the following day.

The United Nations now maintains civilian control over the province.

In a speech to the U.N. Security Council, Del Ponte said she had received reports of 529 grave sites and more than 11,000 bodies. Forensic experts had examined approximately one-third of these locations so far, she said.

The tribunal has issued one public indictment -- against Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic and four others -- for crimes committed in Kosovo.

Great, so we have 2108 bodies and a list from the red cross which has around 3200 missing (34% of which are Serbian), you can google it if you don't believe me. That brings us to around 4400 dead albanians. Do you notice the gap between 4400 and 10000?

So Del Ponte has more information about more bodies? But that doesn't automatically mean that all of them albanian.

CivijusYou are disspointing me, I was hoping your arguments will have some substance.OK one last time:

34% of 3200 is about 1000 missing serbs. So if you substract 1000 from 11,000 (ICTY number) you get 10,000 dead albanians. So numbers are accurate. Whether you accept them, that is a different topic.

See the really sad part of this is that you and other serbs in this blog try constatly to disprove everything that has to do with the crime commited by your government in your name. Until you see things otherwise from what you have been propagated to-you have no chance of evolving to the next level. And that level includes apologizing and recognizing the crime-not denying it.

>>>Genocide is defined as seeking to eliminate an entire group of people. But the number of dead found in Kosovo after the war was said to be only 2,108. That was the figure given by Carla del Ponte, the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, at a December 1999 press conference. But it wasn't clear they were all Kosovo Albanians. Indeed, many may have been Serbs. That's a terrible loss of life, but it's no genocide.

That figure also didn't include the number of Serbs killed in Serbia by the NATO mission commanded by Clark and ordered by President Clinton. The mission was both illegal and unconstitutional, since Clinton never received the authorization of Congress to conduct the war.<<<

Also since you are quoting definitions can you give me the definition of removing about 1 million people from their homes in a few months and destroying their documents so they cant claim anything as theirs. Your choices are:

"This figure does not necessarily reflect the total number of actual victims, because we have discovered evidence of tampering with graves," Del Ponte said.

Her speach at the time and the figures given were of what the troops discovered in their initial entry of the region. ALSO REMEMBER THE INVESTIGATION IS STILL ONGOING! Meaning that there are graves and sites which are not accounted for! I'm sure there are more grave sites in Serbia proper! And ppl on both sides are not accounted for. So lets wait till they find out what the final results and conclusions will be. Before ppl start accusing ppl that their figures are wrong.

Reality is that Serbs killed more albanians and expelled almost 3/4 million ppl and this is fact. Any serbs want to contest this last statement or do you need valid sources from around the world to validate my statement????????

Peace to all and may God Bless the souls of all that parished in a senseless war.

P.S. Cv... you never clarified my question to you after I responded to your request for my opinion.

It's a known fact that the kla ordered albos to leave their homes to give the appearance that the Serbian forces were responsible. You got to give that war criminal ceku credit, he has a future in Hollywood.

Let's do the figures properly once and for all because these revisionist arguments keep popping up.

1. the figure of 2,108 bodies was announced in December 1999, when only one third of major sites of "mass graves" had been dug up. The dig had been deferred for winter.

2. one year later, after next summer's dig, del Ponte announced that the total dug up had reached 4000 (I can find the reference if anyine finds it necessary). By then all the "major" sites had been dug, so it was called off.

3. Meanwhile, 836 bodies had been found in various places ushc as .. next to police compounds .. in Serbia itself. However, after 836, Djindjic got frightened and called off the search for more (the numbers were rising too rapidly. who knows how many more?)

4. Cvijus just quoted us the Red Cross figure for missing, so I won't argue (and it sounds right), so two thirds of 3200 = 2100

So far, that's 4000 + 836 + 2100 = nearly 7000

However,

5. What about SAlbanians who were not in these 529 "mass graves" or in Serbia? What rule says all dead had to be in mass graves? How many individual graves are there? How many were killed and left and then buried properly when Albanians returned? How may should we add? 1000? 2000? And not to mention how do we know there aren't other weird hiding places in Serbia (hey, if they can't find Mladic, I bet they can't find emabrassing bodies)

Sounds like about 10,000 is not abad guess. But what if it is 7-8000? Does that make it OK? Is the gap so big? No it isn't, just the constant resort to this ridiculous figure of 2108 makes the gap look big.

Mind you, these killings, like the mass expuslions, mostly occurred after NATO started bombing. Milosevic/Seselj always had the desire, but not the ability. Still don't get why the Albanians reckon that cynical use of mass killing power, that wreaked devatation upon both peoples, did you any good, but that's another story. Serbs have got to stop making excuses for ewhat their leadership did, and stop pretending it was only a few scratches.

thats exactly what happens when you argue with serbs. It took StORM in Croatia to convince serbs of their imbecility and futility of their demands and it will take same effort for them to see the light in Kosova.

At 11:57 AM, mitrovica pika pika said... "thats exactly what happens when you argue with serbs. It took StORM in Croatia to convince serbs of their imbecility and futility of their demands and it will take same effort for them to see the light in Kosova."

If that was supposed to follow up and agree with my preceding comment that:"Serbs have got to stop making excuses for what their leadership did, and stop pretending it was only a few scratches",

then actually I'd prefer you kept those kind of racist and vile comments to yourself, or attached to someone else's post, thank you Mitrovica. No, I do not advocate a "storm" for Serbs in Croatia or Kosova, any more than I support the "storm" that Serbia initially imposed on Croats in 1991, on Bosnian Muslims for years on end, and Albanians in 1998-99. No, that is not related to the thrust of what I was saying at all.

Meanwhile,At 12:47 PM, Cvijus011 said... "DimTuc ,and from these 7.000 how many of them are Serbs?"

1. your source, that one third of the 3200 missing are Serbs. Therefore, the 2100 I included in the 7000 figure are obviously Albanians

2. the 836 Albanian bodies dug up inside Serbia before the investigation was cut short. Obviously these are Albanians.

3. The 4000 found in the 529 designated "mass graves". There is no doubt that many Serb soldiers and civilains also died in 1999, particulalry from NATO bombs. Now, if NATO bombed some Serb soldiers, do you think that bombing would have automatically deposited them into a mass grave alongside various Albanians already there? Don't you think their colleagues would have attempted to retrieve the bodies, take them back, or give them proper individual graves, and if they couldn't, wouldn't the bodies have been left there? I see no reason to imagine there owuld be Serb miliatry deaths in these particular 529 mass graves full of butchered Albanians. I imagine Serb civilans hit by bombs would also have been buroed properly by family members, after all, the Serb military was in total control of the pace throughout the 78 days. By the way, Albanian civilians were also killed by NATO bombs, and they are obviously not included in the 7000 figure, because the bombs would not have deposited them into an instantaneous mass grave either. And as I said, the 529 mass graves would not necessarily included all Albanians killed by the Serb military and paramilitaries, as many would have been left out, or given proper burials. Same goes I imagine for Serb civillians killed by Albanian guerrillas.

So now do you accept an absolute minimum figure of 7000, probably a coiple of thousand more?

ANYC, this "my" source isn't credible for you enough? Maybe YOU should "enlighten" me WHY? It seems to me that more and more people in the world are waking up from (biased) propaganda of CNN and BBC (which you mention here as "credible" sources...)

ANYC said:

>>>Also since you are quoting definitions can you give me the definition of removing about 1 million people from their homes in a few months and destroying their documents so they cant claim anything as theirs.<<<

A million people? Where and when did it happen?I remember I saw some Greek TV reports about this "removal of million people". One group of those people showed their passports, and - guess what? - they were ALL Albanian! So, what is this telling you?I'll tell you what - UCK with their Europian and American friends dragged people from Albania, so they can make bigger number of refugees!In this case,it's a big question WHO destroyed their documents - because, without documents nobody can prove they were Albanian citizens (and NOT Yugoslav),so, now, they CAN CLAIM ANYTHING AS THEIRS!!!

At 11:57 AM, mitrovica pika pika said..."thats exactly what happens when you argue with serbs. It took StORM in Croatia to convince serbs of their imbecility and futility of their demands and it will take same effort for them to see the light in Kosova."

If that was supposed to follow up and agree with my preceding comment that:"Serbs have got to stop making excuses for what their leadership did, and stop pretending it was only a few scratches",

then actually I'd prefer you kept those kind of racist and vile comments to yourself, or attached to someone else's post, thank you Mitrovica.

No I didnt attach anything to your comment, actually it was the comment by bg anon that I responded. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I dont appreciate selfcentered people be they real people namely albanian, american , british or some other garbage that has a name for its own pathetic kind.

sewerb spewed: "In this case,it's a big question WHO destroyed their documents - because, without documents nobody can prove they were Albanian citizens "

With this logic, god must have seriously fucked up when he created the serbs.

"I'll tell you what - UCK with their Europian and American friends dragged people from Albania, so they can make bigger number of refugees!"

Funny you mentioned this-as I remeber clearly your ambassador to UN saying the exact same thing back in 1999 -on CNN. It just goes to show you have far you have come in the past 7 years. There is absolutely no change in your state of mind as a nation and in your propaganda machine. You are in denial to the crimes perpetrated by your fellow citizens. But remeber histroy will repeat itself for those who refuse to acknwoledge it. How true is this for Serbia as a nation....