Fink's zones SUCK!!! (Read 404 times)

Runslowalksalot

posted: 7/29/2014 at 8:36 PM

I've been base training for a marathon for a while now and just started a 16 week program. One of the programs I was goin g to follow was Fink's. Be well rebound and credentialed, but his zones are was at off base. His programs are geared for miles vs intensity, it be has most of his miles in zone 1-2, but his zone 2 is 75-85% of max. That.s tempo territory!

His marathon pace runs ha e a warm-up in zone 2 but I'm at 30 seconds better than marathon race pace before I hit zone 2!!!! This morning I did 3X1 mile repeats at 5k race pace, as per another program, but was still in his zone 2 (and 3 towards the end of the last repeat)

It can't be just me that thinks that 75-85% of max heart rate is too high for long runs.

Never heard of Fink either, so googled. He's into triathlons, which explains some things.

You may find his zones are similar to Joe Friel's (at least mine work out the same).

Generally 85-87 or 89% is tempo, by some definitions.

75-85% is generally some level of aerobic. I break it down into a couple zones.

75% HRmax is easy in most people's thinking, so it's possible to do long runs at that effort, assuming they're not many hours or don't have extended downhills where you might be trying to keep the same effort.

Are you sure you have an accurate estimate of your HRmax and did *not* use an age-based formula?

"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

I've been around this sport for oh, 25 years. I've never heard of Fink, so I question the "well-credentialed" part. Look up Daniels, Lydiard, Hansons, Pfitzinger.

Especially Daniels and Lydiard...in my not so humble opinion. You won't go wrong with either....1,000s of runners haven't gone wrong with either. A couple of other tried and true...depending upon what your goals are, would be Hal Higdon and Jeff Galloway.

Marathon pace for some people is a "tempo" pace. For others (most?), they won't be able to sustain a tempo effort for 26 miles. It pretty much depends on how long you are going to be out there. More likely they are intended for a specific sort of athlete with a specific type of background that's different from yours.

These zones suck because they are totally arbitrary. Various percentages of max can mean different things to different athletes. At least Friel's approach to HR training has you base your zones off of a reasonably accurate approximation of lactate threshold. (A more general problem with zone training is that all athletes experience cardiac drift unless they're running very easy in cool conditions.) It sounds to me like your lactate threshold is at a fairly low percentage of your VO2max. That's actually good news, because it means that you have a lot of room to improve.

For what it's worth, 85% of max heart rate for me is slightly below my average HR over the course of a marathon, so not really "tempo" as Daniels uses the term. 75% of max heart rate has me going at a solid clip, but probably right on the threshold between the level where all speeds are equally easy and the level where it starts to require a tiny bit of effort. It would probably not be a long run pace for me. I'd either consciously put a speed limit on myself if my long run were not intended as a key workout that week, or if the long run were a key workout, then I'd be going harder.

I'd actually recommend Brad Hudson's book. He doesn't get as much respect as some of the others because he's largely repackaging Renato Canova, but Canova happens to be the best marathon coach in the world, and his own writings are incomprehensible without putting in a good deal of effort. Hudson's book, however, is easy to understand.

What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles, Miles of Trials. How could they be expected to understand that? -John Parker

Holy typo batman!!! I just read my own post. My manthumbs show their stuff! Even I didn't understand it.

My extended base training probably had an effect on my LT, but I was able to maintain 85% max (170 bmp) for the first 3 miles of a recent 10 k in warm humid hilly conditions, and it only went up from there to my max of 199 bmp (I'm 43) at the finish. Funny, but 6months of low heart rate training has made it difficult to get my heart rate up. I just did a 3X1 mile repeat at a recent 5k race pace and was fine. I felt it but it wasn't extrAordinarily hard. But I was still in zone 2 (untill the last hill towards the end anyways) according to Fink when I should have been in zone 3-4.

I'm going with a program of lower miles and higher intensity by the furman institute for the high intensity stuff, but keeping my heart rate low for my long runs.

LSD baby!!!

Mr R

posted: 7/31/2014 at 5:18 AM

This is the problem I was talking about. It's one thing to do tempos or long runs by zone, but doing intervals by zone is just silly. When doing mile repeats at 5k pace, almost nobody will have a zone. You start with your HR reasonably low from your recovery, and it will climb throughout the repetition. It absolutely won't even stabilize because you're running at a pace that's beyond lactate threshold. (FWIW, the notion that HR stays steady at or below LT is simply untrue for most runners, even well trained ones.)

Also, 3xmile at 5k pace shouldn't be an especially tough workout. 4xmile is more typical, and 5xmile is brutal.

What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles, Miles of Trials. How could they be expected to understand that? -John Parker

Holy typo batman!!! I just read my own post. My manthumbs show their stuff! Even I didn't understand it.

My extended base training probably had an effect on my LT, but I was able to maintain 85% max (170 bmp) for the first 3 miles of a recent 10 k in warm humid hilly conditions, and it only went up from there to my max of 199 bmp (I'm 43) at the finish. Funny, but 6months of low heart rate training has made it difficult to get my heart rate up. I just did a 3X1 mile repeat at a recent 5k race pace and was fine. I felt it but it wasn't extrAordinarily hard. But I was still in zone 2 (untill the last hill towards the end anyways) according to Fink when I should have been in zone 3-4.

I'm going with a program of lower miles and higher intensity by the furman institute for the high intensity stuff, but keeping my heart rate low for my long runs.

LSD baby!!!

Furman, LHR training, Fink - Make up your mind and follow it man. Mixing them up only gives you a headache and could also result in fat thumbs.

I've been base training for a marathon for a while now and just started a 16 week program. One of the programs I was goin g to follow was Fink's. Be well rebound and credentialed, but his zones are was at off base. His programs are geared for miles vs intensity, it be has most of his miles in zone 1-2, but his zone 2 is 75-85% of max. That.s tempo territory!

His marathon pace runs ha e a warm-up in zone 2 but I'm at 30 seconds better than marathon race pace before I hit zone 2!!!! This morning I did 3X1 mile repeats at 5k race pace, as per another program, but was still in his zone 2 (and 3 towards the end of the last repeat)

It can't be just me that thinks that 75-85% of max heart rate is too high for long runs.

The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff