everything is shot digitally nowadays...the whole crew sees the image on the screen almost instantaneously...
it's a whole new world really...

the photog can certainly make or break a shoot...
but a good experienced stylist can art direct even a mediocre photog into taking decent shots...

in general...
this is not my opinion- this is fact...
think about the vogue movie- the september issue...
they talked about the fact that EVERY story that grace coddington works on is good...
they might kill some images for various reasons- but not because it isn't good...
other stylists can work with the same photog and not get the shots at all...
*we saw that happen in that movie as well...
what i wish they had shown, but didn't, is what is really going on at the shoots and how exactly does that happen...
but they would never divulge that, i guess...unfortunately...

really- it's all about the team...
it's why you see the same photog and editors/stylists working together all the time...
hair and make up too...although they are a bit more interchangeable...
but models come and go depending on the story...
*although, special ones will also work regularly with certain teams if they have meeting of the creative minds...

maybe you guys haven't paid attention...
but this is what is going on out there...
go on, check it out for yourselves...
it's not a big mystery...

Maybe that's the problem. Certainly, there are some editors who have a great eye, such as Grace Coddington, she and some others seem to not be photographers mostly because they don't get of on the type of technology geek stuff that all photographers must love. But it seems to me photographers generally have a better eye for what works as an image.

Yeah, I confess, I don't work with this so perhaps I should stfu but the fact remains that I have collected fashion magazines for a while, and for whatever reason they are just nowhere near as good now as they were before the mid 90s. And it seems that perhaps the technology obsession combined with the editor as being in charge could explain why the standard has gone down. From the perspective of fashion photography as art, that is.

Besides, the model is extremely important. As important as editors or photographers. Sure, you can get decent shots with the proper body, but you can't get great shots unless the model is great. Unfortunately, the qualities that makes a model great - youth, a certain state of mind - are all fleeting qualities that you can't rely on for any length of time (a matter of 2-10 years) and that takes down the importance of the model. After all, why should you pay respect to someone who is only going to be there for a short time?

Im sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree. The amount of money A list models make a year compared to an A list photographer or A list stylist can NOT be compared to the amount they make. Yes, they get payed little in the begining but NO ONE makes more money than them after they've arrived (except, of course, the fashion houses but then thats a whole different territory)

I never said that they should get equal pay. I just meant that they should all be paid well, and definitely more than $150 for a photoshoot IMO. That's because most models don't make it to the A-list and most models don't get that big payoff past the poorly paid beginning. I definitely think they should be paid better. Whether or not they should be paid the same amount as a photographer is a different story.

I never said that they should get equal pay. I just meant that they should all be paid well, and definitely more than $150 for a photoshoot IMO. That's because most models don't make it to the A-list and most models don't get that big payoff past the poorly paid beginning. I definitely think they should be paid better. Whether or not they should be paid the same amount as a photographer is a different story.

But why JUST the models? The rest of the crew's salary hardly will go up .. waht makes em SO special that they SHOULD get special treatment and get payed BETTER than the rest of the staff? Thats poppycock!

But why JUST the models? The rest of the crew's salary hardly will go up .. waht makes em SO special that they SHOULD get special treatment and get payed BETTER than the rest of the staff? Thats poppycock!

Dont they? I am under the impression that the photographer charges an arm and a leg for the photoshoots

^We can't only look at the top of everything because salaries like that don't represent the profession as a whole. Like I've already said, the vast majority of models don't make it very high at all. Some top models are paid a disproportionate amount, so maybe the solution is not paying them so much instead of paying models on the lower end less to compensate.
And another thing is that a lot of models have other sources of income as well. Some like Gisele and Carmen do a bunch of things outside of modeling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ultramarine

But why JUST the models? The rest of the crew's salary hardly will go up .. waht makes em SO special that they SHOULD get special treatment and get payed BETTER than the rest of the staff? Thats poppycock!

Well, I did say that it shouldn't be just the models. If models get decent wages, so should everyone else. That was the whole point of my original post.

But why JUST the models? The rest of the crew's salary hardly will go up .. waht makes em SO special that they SHOULD get special treatment and get payed BETTER than the rest of the staff? Thats poppycock!

simply because in the whole staff, the model is the only one for who the editorials are really crucial for her career if she is managed to go in the high fashion direction.

So somehow, if u "need" something more than the other people in the staff, the logic makes that u must accept to do it for less money.
let's be clear, at a moment of their carreer, a model would be even ready TO PAY to be in a top edito, no make up artist or photographer are ever in that position...

a top photographer is rather well paid for campaign, and "top bucks" for models dont really concern most campaign.
I know girls who shooted DG campaign with mario testino, models was booked for just around 3000$m testino i dnt know, but certainly much more
I saw prada campaign statement for about 5000$, there too photographer gets more...

Errrm ... how much does a model get for a CAMPAIGN? How much did Natalia got payed when she got the Gucci exclusive just starting? We all know thats how models do the most of his money .. and you didnt reply to my comment about not getting how you claim editorials are more important to MODELS than fashion EDITORS ... :/

It seems models make reasonably well for campaigns, but I do think they need to get more for editorial/magazine work. Likewise for fashion shows, since I don't think getting a t-shirt is sufficient.

However, I think bigger problem is the criminal underpayment for male models. While it may be argued that female models don't get fully compensated for their contributions, at least they make some money. From what it sounds like to me, male models get peanuts compared to female models, which is totally wrong. It would seem to me it would violate some anti-discrimination laws.

Summarizing, models are part of the cost that this companies "magazines" want to reduce too, and they do it, BUT NOT BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT MODELS ARE ENOUGH PAID WITH THE EXPOSURE THAT AN EDITORIAL BRINGS, they just do it in their try of eliminating every cost as possible.

In my younger days, any time that I ever had to organise a shoot, the models were earning more per hour than I was, because all costs had to be kept down. Of course, such wise investment certainly retained talented staff for that company...

Errrm ... how much does a model get for a CAMPAIGN? How much did Natalia got payed when she got the Gucci exclusive just starting? We all know thats how models do the most of his money ..:/

such deal are irrevelant in this topic as it concerns maybe 10 -15 contracts per year in the whole business, so it just concerns a very few girls.
u can not talk in general about "campaign" in talking about such deals, as it does not even 1% of the numbers of "campaign" available on the market.

for the fashion editor parts, i just thought it was also completly irrelevent, fashion editor it is basically their main jobs, so does it have sense to wonder if their main job is crucial for them?
it is not crucial in same way at all...

It seems models make reasonably well for campaigns, but I do think they need to get more for editorial/magazine work. Likewise for fashion shows, since I don't think getting a t-shirt is sufficient.

. From what it sounds like to me, male models get peanuts compared to female models, which is totally wrong. It would seem to me it would violate some anti-discrimination laws.

The whole male modeling make less money than the girls for simple business reason.
the whole male fashion industry, clothing, advertising, price of ads for male clothes is just miles away from the women industry so obviously the difference is also in the model tariff.

it is the same in tennis for example women makes much less than menm just because they generate less money in the tennis industry, tickets are cheaper to watch the girls, TV pay less to broadcast girls competition and so on....

About fashion shows, dont also think that all shows just bring T-shirt to models, some shows are well paid and a girl can bill a lot of money if she is successful in that field.

^I don't know about all majors, but I believe women get the same prize money as men at the US Open. That's despite all those differences you mentioned (but in reverse) and despite the fact that men have to win three games while women only have to win two. Saying more on this subject would be off topic so I won't.

I don't disagree that market doesn't dictate some of the difference in pay between male and female models, but I don't believe it's to the extent that it's been. I believe David Ghandy has spoken out against it.