I'm really curious about the entire transitional process. What exactly does it entail? Is there a set time frame until you can fully be what you were meant to be? If so are they different for each group ( mtf and ftm ).

P.s sorry for being clueless, this topic has me curious and I really like to get insight on how tg's liver and go through the process of transitioning. Any links for information would be appreciated! Have a blessed day!

Which is why MY solution-- speaking only for myself-- has been to rearrange my orientation. It was not easy to do, don't think for one moment that I think it's feasible for most trans folk, or even most any folk. Being innately bisexual, of course, that helped.

But dammmit, i do not want to hijack this thread!

Seriously Stella you are very welcome to post your issues here because they are often parallel to mine. It's a discussion thread so go for it and I'd like it to be a thread where anyone feels comfortable asking questions about trans*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verycurious18

I'm sorry if anyone has asked this an I hope it's ok If I do.
I'm really curious about the entire transitional process. What exactly does it entail? Is there a set time frame until you can fully be what you were meant to be? If so are they different for each group ( mtf and ftm ).

The time frame will vary for different situations/individuals and how far medically someone intends to transition. It is only sensible for the process to take a couple of years because it is such a huge change to make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verycurious18

P.s sorry for being clueless, this topic has me curious and I really like to get insight on how tg's liver and go through the process of transitioning. Any links for information would be appreciated! Have a blessed day!

There's a lot of footage between those three women so maybe pick one and follow her story through. If you have any other questions then I'd be pleased to try and help or find you other resources - there is a lot out there so it may take a bit of time to really build up a picture of the trans* world. It's not that it is especially complicated but we're all individuals and have our own way of doing things.

You know I was thinking about you over the weekend Haurni ( steady - don't get too excited ) specifically because you were trying to figure out what label of convenience best fits your personality, but also that you were feeling guilty about being attracted to trans women as a fetish.

Perhaps we ought to be clearer about our understanding of fetish, because what springs to my mind is something like a horror movie character, holding the phone to his ear with one hand, breathing heavy and tugging his dick with a wielding glove on the other. Or is it someone who watches nothing but shemale porn online and masturbates to exclusively shemale mental images? Do you project yourself as the man having sex with a trans woman or the trans woman herself or a bit of each?

When I was putting together my jigsaw of emotions and thoughts I did consider if I was gay, but to describe myself simply in terms of which sex I was mainly attracted to is missing the point is a big way because there is so much more to life than sex Do you focus too much on the sexual side of your mind, with all its discordant pushes and pulls?

You know I was thinking about you over the weekend Haurni ( steady - don't get too excited )

Awww

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickygirl

Perhaps we ought to be clearer about our understanding of fetish, because what springs to my mind is something like a horror movie character, holding the phone to his ear with one hand, breathing heavy and tugging his dick with a wielding glove on the other. Or is it someone who watches nothing but shemale porn online and masturbates to exclusively shemale mental images? Do you project yourself as the man having sex with a trans woman or the trans woman herself or a bit of each?

I do enjoy shemale porn, and I think being introduced to it is what stirred up the thoughts I'd previously had about my own gender. The basic principles of conditioning suggest to me that if you keep masturbating to something, it will become more and more reinforcing for you, but that's certainly not the only thing that turns me on (if it did, I'd be worried!). In fact, I'm mostly into lesbian porn (I have a similar interest in/admiration for lesbians and, as I mentioned before, the majority of my cybering is lesbian, though recently with an increasing shemale component). Has my mild questioning of my own gender been reinforced by these types of porn, or am I so attracted to them because they express in some ways an interest in being a woman (or at least less male)? That's what I don't know.

Interestingly, I would rank my favourite internal masturbatory scenario preferences somewhat differently from the type of porn I like to watch - they vary from time to time, but being female and having straight sex is probably one of the top ones. Second would be having straight sex as a male. Third would be me as a male being on the receiving end of intercourse with a shemale and a close fourth would be a lesbian scenario. Gay male sex is fifth on my list. So I'm fairly flexible with my preferred genders and orientations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickygirl

When I was putting together my jigsaw of emotions and thoughts I did consider if I was gay, but to describe myself simply in terms of which sex I was mainly attracted to is missing the point is a big way because there is so much more to life than sex Do you focus too much on the sexual side of your mind, with all its discordant pushes and pulls?

A lot, yes. This is part of the reason I found the autogynephilia description interesting - it focused more on sexual arousal to the thought of being female than on some 'innate' understanding of oneself as being different from one's assigned sex (again, not saying that typpology describes all or even many transwomen) and, to me, brings up the issue of 'self-conditioning' I noted above. Part of my interest in being female is, as Stella mentioned in her case, related to the choice of potential sex partners - as a woman I could have lesbian sex or straight sex with a guy (not that I mind gay sex with guys, but it's not the same thing). That's not the only thing, though - I honestly think I would prefer to have a female body, given the choice, though I do like my dick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickygirl

Stella - I bet you have some thoughts on this

Always happy to hear from you, Stella.

---

Has anybody done a study of trans porn actresses and if they differ from other transwomen in terms of their motivations? Do they represent an extreme version of gay-for-pay (i.e. trans for pay)? Or are they simply using the sex industry as a means to enable their own transitions (as a sex worker might engage in prostitution to finance college, for example)? What percentage go on to have gender confirmation surgery, as compared to other transwomen?

I can actually understand the attraction of being female in all respects save for the penis, so perhaps they simply represent a group for whom full transition is not their end goal. Perhaps I actually want to be a 'shemale'?

Being we've gotten off track I felt I needed to speak to you Haurni about your belief or wanting to believe Blanchard's autogynephilia hypothesis.

Here is an abstract of Julia Serano debunking of Blachard hypothesis and I call it a hypothesis because it never reached the proof needed to be a scientific theory such as the theory of evolution.

Quote:

Autogynephilia is a paraphilic model of transsexuality that claims that a “misdirected heterosexual sex drive” is the underlying cause of the gender dysphoria experienced by MTF transgender individuals who are not exclusively attracted to men. Most previous critiques of this model have centered on the fact that it is scientifically unsubstantiated, mistakes correlation for causation, conflates sexual orientation with gender expression, gender identity and sex embodiment, and fails to take into account the vast diversity that exists in MTF sexualities, trajectories and histories. In this presentation, however, I will focus on what is perhaps the most startling oversight in autogynephilia theory: its failure to take into account how the routine sexualization of femaleness and femininity in our society might impact the way in which transgender individuals come to make sense of their own crossgender identities and experiences. An acknowledgement of this phenomenon provides a nonpathological alternative model that readily explains previously observed differences between both “homosexual/nonhomosexual” and MTF/FTM trajectories. Furthermore, the societal sexualization of femaleness and femininity can also account for why MTF spectrum individuals are regularly sexualized in our culture (especially in the media), and why psychologists have routinely sexualized MTF spectrum individuals (while largely ignoring those on the FTM spectrum) with regards to taxonomy, theories of etiology, descriptions of case histories, and diagnoses.

I have both of Julia Serano's books and have had the pleasure of seeing her speak in person as well. She has a number of things to say about Blanchard, none of them complimentary.

It's not a case of me believing it, or wanting to believe it. I merely asked what people thought of the concept as perhaps descriptive of a subset of transwomen - my interest was that I felt it described some of my feelings and my situation to some degree. I certainly don't think that 'misdirected heterosexual sex drive' is the 'cause' of it, any more than I think his 'homosexual transsexuals' want to have male bodies so that they can have gay sex 'appropriately'. Stella's comments, and mine, suggest that some people share similarities with certain aspects of his typologies, but I certainly don't believe that all trans* do.

I have both of Julia Serano's books and have had the pleasure of seeing her speak in person as well. She has a number of things to say about Blanchard, none of them complimentary.

It's not a case of me believing it, or wanting to believe it. I merely asked what people thought of the concept as perhaps descriptive of a subset of transwomen - my interest was that I felt it described some of my feelings and my situation to some degree. I certainly don't think that 'misdirected heterosexual sex drive' is the 'cause' of it, any more than I think his 'homosexual transsexuals' want to have male bodies so that they can have gay sex 'appropriately'. Stella's comments, and mine, suggest that some people share similarities with certain aspects of his typologies, but I certainly don't believe that all trans* do.

I'm not saying anything about who you are haurni, I'm just saying you can't use Blanchard's hypothesis in any way, it's bad science. An hypothesis has to be tested to rigorous standard with a control, it has to be replicable, none of that happened with any of Blanchard's work.

You're who you are and I do understand wanting to know why but nothing Blanchard produced works, you'll need to look elsewhere.

Speaking of Stella I wish she'd update her thread.

__________________

"If male homosexuals are called 'gay,' then female homosexuals should be called 'ecstatic!'" - Shelly Roberts

PROUDLY QUEER! HAPPILY LESBIAN!

“Some women can't say the word lesbian...even when their mouth is full of one.” - Kate Clinton

Thanks Dys for posting the mp3. Although I've read two of Serano's books and found little to disagree with, I hadn't realised that Blanchard's work was taken seriously or carried much weight.
This is second time today I've found myself speaking back at my monitor: the first being Piers Morgans interview of Janet Mock over on the TG Inspiration thread and now listening to Julia's presentation of her paper. Is it possible to overuse the expression "Waaaat?!"

You don't have to look far on Lit or even Tumblr to find people's posts that would support Blanchard autogynephilia, but Lit by its nature is a sex site so that's hardly surprising. I'm not convinced though that they would cut much ice with the infamous gatekeepers to transgender medical therapy.
Is a purely sexual motivation a valid reason for transitioning? The individual would have to prove they are able to live as a woman for at least a year, usually two, before any medical treatment were started. If the initial motivation for wishing to transition were sexual but then later broadened to include every aspect of living as a women, then they could permanently transition successfully and live happy lives. How they conduct their sex lives is really no one's business but their own - therapists and medics included.

In practical terms that medical treatment and surgery may or may not be paid for by the state/insurers and applications will be filtered by the gatekeepers, who are more likely to cast doubt on sexually motivated applications. That's why work such as Blanchard's has a damaging effect on decision makers at government level who control those budgets and are frequently happy to describe all trans* as sexually motivated. When the porn industry and the media keep reinforcing that impression, it's no wonder that trans women get screamed at for being in the wrong restroom and refused financial assistance for medical expenses.

To my way of thinking you are transgender from the inside out, not the other way and no amount of porn viewing can brainwash a person so deeply to change their sense of who they are.

I had a PM from someone over a subject that has come up before and I made an attempt at giving an informed answer. I know re-posting PMs is against Lit rules but I asked and received permission to re-post it here

Hey Stickygirl.

I am an older guy who a few years back decided to come out as bi. I have had a great time. One of my dreams was to have breast. I recently started talking to a friend who has encouraged me to pursue the idea. Not saying I will do it yet, but I want to explore the idea. I have found no one to talk to and I remember how helpful everyone was here when I decided to the bi life style.
My friend said there are some herbal pills I can take that will help me develop some breasts and not affect my sex drive. Is this true?
Anyway, hoping maybe you can point me somewhere to investigate this idea. I had talked to another person like me that got some nice breast and they even offered to meet me and see how they were, but it is about 10 hours from here.
When I asked for a little help, I got no response. She quit talking to me. I hope I did not offend and that was not my intention, but I would really like to investigate the idea.
I have had dreams since my youth of having breasts and I have finally reached a point where I feel like I would like to do it.
Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

Hi there
Wow - well this a lot to get through, but I can see your questions are sincere and not fetish, so here goes

Can we look at the breast thing first? The drugs that produce breast growth in people with XY chromosomes ( ie men ) work by flooding the body with female estrogen and there's a second drug often used to block production of male testosterone. Because both of these are being imposed onto a male system there is a medical price to pay and a serious one - namely damage to the liver but other organs get zapped as well. If there are herbal potions that actually work, they are going to do exactly the same job, not matter how safe they advertise themselves to be. The other thing from a medical POV is that breast growth in transexuals MtF is not guaranteed and few develop bigger than a B-cup without surgical augmentation because one can never escape the endocrine framework from which you are made.

You could self-prescribe those drugs but tell me this: would you prefer to be a healthy 57 yr old with a burning desire to have breasts or a guy with a debilitating chronic illness and breasts? I'm not saying that would happen to you but the risk is real and without proper medical supervision and regular blood tests it is a dangerous gamble. The other downsides are that estrogen will start to rewire your brain and the way you think and react: expect to revisit all your teenage anxieties and moods, expect erectile dysfunction.

I'm wondering why you are so focused on breasts and not other aspects of your feminine side? Sure, breasts are great but there's far more to expressing your feminine side than a couple of lumps of spongy flesh. I'd need to know a bit more about you than a desire to have breasts, because people are far more complicated than that.

I'd be happy to PM some more about this if you felt it helped, but please remember I'm not a professional and this is only my view on things. I often end up disagreeing with other transgender people and I'm often corrected by wiser, older people, so don't just go with what I'm saying. There are plenty of places on the web where you can read more to help you answer your questions.

Lastly, you are not alone - I know there are other people out there who have the same feelings you do. If it's OK with you, I'd like to post this answer on my Ask a TG MtF thread - completely anonymously of course.

But actually, it doesn't sound as if he identifies as female in any way-- he specifically wants breasts on his male body.

I'm starting to wonder if things like this are necessarily fetishes every time. "autogynephilia," which I *think* is more complex than your average sexual fetish, might cover cases like this.

There's a temptation, or at least a failure of language and how it's perceived, for a fetish to be described in a dismissive way, as though it were a trifling thing - which it isn't. Confusion about fetishes cause people a great deal of distress and can eat you up emotionally until you can resolve it in your mind. I know all about that.

I'm learning to better understand fetish and I hope my correspondent here didn't feel I was being dismissive. It's difficult to provide good advice on the back of one email but I hope I haven't made matters worse here.

As it turned out, I think this person needed to be able to eliminate what had been an unknown before and I hope I helped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

... I haven't been contributing because the effort of intellectualising my identity and desires-- separating them-- requires that little bit more brain than I have right now...

Your absence have been noticed and missed! I pretty sure I know what you mean there <<hugs>>

But actually, it doesn't sound as if he identifies as female in any way-- he specifically wants breasts on his male body.

I'm starting to wonder if things like this are necessarily fetishes every time. "autogynephilia," which I *think* is more complex than your average sexual fetish, might cover cases like this.

... I haven't been contributing because the effort of intellectualising my identity and desires-- separating them-- requires that little bit more brain than I have right now...

I do have a problem with classing a lot of things people call fetishes as a fetish. I have no idea why he'd want breasts, especially since there are time I wish I didn't have mine, but I'm not sure his desire should be thought of as a fetish.

I remember one time you said you wished you could have a penis so you'd be unisex and I didn't think of that as a fetish. I don't have a desire for a penis but the concept of having both is kind of interesting, kinda neat actually, it surely would make all our lives less complicated.

__________________

"If male homosexuals are called 'gay,' then female homosexuals should be called 'ecstatic!'" - Shelly Roberts

PROUDLY QUEER! HAPPILY LESBIAN!

“Some women can't say the word lesbian...even when their mouth is full of one.” - Kate Clinton

I had to check my big dictionary for fetish - sometimes ya just have to.

It's quite a hoot..
So in Oxford, where they make English, they say this: 'A form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc'
they then provide some contemporary examples'a man with a fetish for surgical masks'
'a foot fetish'
'some may have fetishes, like dressing up in women’s clothes.'
'Victorian men developed fetishes focusing on feet, shoes, and boots' You can almost hear Jeremy Paxman saying it

But there's more sober enlightenment:'An excessive and irrational devotion or commitment to a particular thing:
'men will never understand a woman’s fetish for shoes and handbags'
'the western fetish for all things North African''

It's priceless. Where the fuck do they find these examples?
This all goes to prove if you want play a Godwin card by brandishing a dictionary, you'll be sharing it with an incontinent old man sitting in room full of cobwebs, surrounded by rare stamps of the Empire and a bottle of fine sherry.

So, wiping away a tear *deep breath* if your desire for a penis is mere whimsy, then it isn't fetish. Even if a cis-gender man thinks 'having breasts would be great to enhance my lovemaking as a man (but is it's not poss, then never mind)' isn't fetish either. Nor would it be fetish if you thought having both sex organs would improve your life generally and not just in bed.

My own idea of fetish would be an obsessive sexual interest in blah blah or if your sexual satisfaction was empty without blah blah.

I did ask the Oxford Don about autogynephilia, but he removed his half-rim glasses and said 'No results found for “Autogynephilia”.

I don't have a desire for a penis but the concept of having both is kind of interesting, kinda neat actually, it surely would make all our lives less complicated.

I'd beg to differ.
If RL was Lit-world then I might keep my penis, given the trauma of surgery and the necessary 'proto' vagina aftercare that is required.... umm... although who needs a flappy piece of flesh down there? OK, so it's occasionally v useful for taking a pee but, when the phallic symbol appears on every graffitied wall on the planet, reminding us of its male presence... nah - chop the frigging thing off.

But as a concept: humans having both sex organs, then yea, it probably would have stopped most wars and wee'd have unisex toilets that would save a fortune in building costs.

There was a kid at work that wanted to make the change from being in a males body to the female he believed he truly was. Very nice person. He moved out of the country to Quebec some time before I retired. I always liked him. We could talk for hours. My wife met him once before she died. She liked him a lot! She called a sweet thing. He came to her funeral and cried. I never saw him again after he moved away. I wonder about him/her every now and then... I would try to locate him, but I know he moved away from here for a reason. Shame.

There was a kid at work that wanted to make the change from being in a males body to the female he believed he truly was. Very nice person. He moved out of the country to Quebec some time before I retired. I always liked him. We could talk for hours. My wife met him once before she died. She liked him a lot! She called a sweet thing. He came to her funeral and cried. I never saw him again after he moved away. I wonder about him/her every now and then... I would try to locate him, but I know he moved away from here for a reason. Shame.

You would have to try to locate her, for a start. If you go looking for "him" you'll never find your old friend.

Stickygirl, I love your post about the dictionary.

__________________"Oh woe, these be perilous times! Children no longer obey their elders, and everybody is writing a book!"--Pliny the Elder, AD76

'A form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc''An excessive and irrational devotion or commitment to a particular thing

Even if a cis-gender man thinks 'having breasts would be great to enhance my lovemaking as a man (but is it's not poss, then never mind)' isn't fetish either. Nor would it be fetish if you thought having both sex organs would improve your life generally and not just in bed.

Here I must respectfully disagree with you. In both of your examples, if one were to dwell on the possibilities to the extent that they were more than passing whimsies then they would qualify as fetishes in the sense of the second of the two definitions you mention, even if the sexual aspect was minimal or even absent, since the definition of fetish derives from its original sense of an idol (though not exactly), as in:

1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.

then the non-sexual sense:

2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.

makes... well, sense... in that it is something that one 'idolizes', i.e. pays a great deal of attention to or spends a lot of time thinking about or contemplating ('object regarded with awe' > 'any object... eliciting... respect, or devotion'). In a broad sense, it can be anything that one greatly desires and, consequently, dwells upon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickygirl

But as a concept: humans having both sex organs, then yea, it probably would have stopped most wars and wee'd have unisex toilets that would save a fortune in building costs.

It would also bring new meaning to the phrase 'Go fuck yourself' and, if masturbation is seen as bad, I have no doubt that someone who did so would be looked down upon as depraved.