Any 2308 or 2809 in Best Buy? I'm on the verge of returning my 354 and it would be a lot easier if I could just exchange it for another AVR...

2309CI = Sku #8853957 with an $849.98 price and a 9/4/08 availability. But BB staff has problems when checking stock using their system.
I expect the 2809CI about the same time. Also Magnolia HIFI now has both models in stock locally that Best Buy owns.

So what gives? What the hell does "power amp stage values" mean? If it's actually .08% I'm going to be really bummed. Seems like that is actually a step down from the 2808 then.

I asked about this earlier but some sheets say 0.05% some say 0.08%. Possible typo as the 5 and 8 look similar. Also looking at the 23xx series it went .05% then .08% then .05% in last three models.

To quote about.com. "In reality, total harmonic distortion is hardly perceptible to the human ear. Every component adds some level of distortion, but most distortion is insignificant and small differences in specifications between components mean nothing. Some components have distortion so low it cannot be accurately measured. Listening to a component and evaluating its sound characteristics is the most important way to judge a product."

As I mentioned I have an Oppo 983 which I also want to use for sacd and dvd audio playback. I noticed something on the specs regarding sacd support which was not checked. Does that mean I wouldn't be able to listen to my sacd's with this receiver or does that refer to something else?
Thanks in advance!

As I mentioned I have an Oppo 983 which I also want to use for sacd and dvd audio playback. I noticed something on the specs regarding sacd support which was not checked. Does that mean I wouldn't be able to listen to my sacd's with this receiver or does that refer to something else?
Thanks in advance!

According to the manual (p.11) SACD is supported on HDMI inputs. Also the DAC chip in the unit does DSD, so you should be all set.

You can not hear the difference between .08 and .05 THD so does it really matter?

You are probably correct that you can't tell the difference but I'm looking at it strictly from a comparison standpoint. If the 2809 is 115W at .08%, that means it's actual lower when rated at .05%. It's probably somewhere closer to 100W @ .05%. The 2808 was rated 110W @ .05%. So hell yes this matters to me, especially for this kind of money in a receiver.

You're basically paying for a few extra features but losing power for an extra $200-$300 then.

Onkyo is pulling the same thing w/ the 805 to 806. Both rated at 130 watts but went from .05% in 805, to .08% in 806, which is just a numbers game and actually means the 806 actually has less power if you compare them both with the .05% numbers.

You are probably correct that you can't tell the difference but I'm looking at it strictly from a comparison standpoint. If the 2809 is 115W at .08%, that means it's actual lower when rated at .05%. It's probably somewhere closer to 100W @ .05%. The 2808 was rated 110W @ .05%. So hell yes this matters to me, especially for this kind of money in a receiver.

You're basically paying for a few extra features but losing power for an extra $200-$300 then.

Onkyo is pulling the same thing w/ the 805 to 806. Both rated at 130 watts but went from .05% in 805, to .08% in 806, which is just a numbers game and actually means the 806 actually has less power if you compare them both with the .05% numbers.

can someone explain this to me? your comparison makes no sense. you can't hear the difference. and you aren't getting "less power".

consider this...

if i ask you to give me 2 numbers less than 10 (audible level), and you tell me "6" and "4" (distortion level), BOTH are less than 10... you can't argue that somehow "6" is "better", because they are indistinguishable in both being less than 10...

edit: all of this ignores the fact that in "real world listening", if you are attempting to max out your avr's power, you aren't getting 115 (or 110) wpc anyway (except in 2-channel)... so the spec, besides being irrelevant (since you can't hear it), is worthless anyway...

You are probably correct that you can't tell the difference but I'm looking at it strictly from a comparison standpoint. If the 2809 is 115W at .08%, that means it's actual lower when rated at .05%. It's probably somewhere closer to 100W @ .05%. The 2808 was rated 110W @ .05%. So hell yes this matters to me, especially for this kind of money in a receiver.

You're basically paying for a few extra features but losing power for an extra $200-$300 then.

Onkyo is pulling the same thing w/ the 805 to 806. Both rated at 130 watts but went from .05% in 805, to .08% in 806, which is just a numbers game and actually means the 806 actually has less power if you compare them both with the .05% numbers.

The power is not less between the 2809 and 2808 models as shown by the power amp spec's for dynamic power w/two channels into 8 and 4 ohm loads (130 vs 120 watts, and 180 vs 170 watts), and also note the 145 watts into 6 ohm load at .7 % THD for the 2809 versus 140 watts into 6 ohm load at .7 % THD with 2808.

can someone explain this to me? your comparison makes no sense. you can't hear the difference. and you aren't getting "less power".

consider this...

if i ask you to give me 2 numbers less than 10 (audible level), and you tell me "6" and "4" (distortion level), BOTH are less than 10... you can't argue that somehow "6" is "better", because they are indistinguishable in both being less than 10...

edit: all of this ignores the fact that in "real world listening", if you are attempting to max out your avr's power, you aren't getting 115 (or 110) wpc anyway (except in 2-channel)... so the spec, besides being irrelevant (since you can't hear it), is worthless anyway...

I wasn't trying to argue that the distortion levels matter. I am more concerned if the overall power has dropped in the 2809. And again maybe you can't tell but if I'm spending $1200 I want to know what exactly I'm buying compared to other models, brands etc. (apples to apples.)

Anyways, thanks JohnAV for pointing those #'s out. So it would seem that the power has stayed about the same, or in the case of dynamic power actually increased slightly. That's exactly what I was trying to get down to here.

You are probably correct that you can't tell the difference but I'm looking at it strictly from a comparison standpoint. If the 2809 is 115W at .08%, that means it's actual lower when rated at .05%. It's probably somewhere closer to 100W @ .05%. The 2808 was rated 110W @ .05%. So hell yes this matters to me, especially for this kind of money in a receiver.

You're basically paying for a few extra features but losing power for an extra $200-$300 then.

Onkyo is pulling the same thing w/ the 805 to 806. Both rated at 130 watts but went from .05% in 805, to .08% in 806, which is just a numbers game and actually means the 806 actually has less power if you compare them both with the .05% numbers.

lol, 100, 110, 90, 120 and so on...do you know the true audible difference in this different Watts/ch ratings?

Its only a 3 dB difference between 64 and 128 Watts so 90 to 120 is not even audible.

you are splitting hairs and also do you realize that in a true third party tests seldom to the documented specs match the test

People have to get over the whole Watts issue because it is simply meaningless. If you care about Watts buy and 250W/ch amp that truely has better Dynamic range, better THD.

I personally would never use an AVR amp, I always use my AVRs simply as pre/pros because the amps in them are not good enough for me and my system.

Officially from Denon Response (Ean Levy) - 08/22/2008 02:18 PM
That is an error on the website. It is 0.08%.
This is very sad to hear!

ugh....please people lets worry about something meaningful. ALL of the manufactures specs are not ACCURATE there is always something not tested correctly, etc so we are splitting hairs over something we can not even hear the difference in....yeah, same point as my last post but lets worry about stuff that will actually make a difference in your rooms.

Would be nice to know the correct spec, especially for a 1100 dollar receiver!

But at those levels you cannot hear the difference and isn't that what is important. That's like wanting to know the over all area of the vent holes in the top and sides of the receiver and then buying the one with .00003 more open space because it should be cooler.

I never argue with fools cause from a distance you canÂt tell who is who....

Thanks, but what about when going to commercials or explosion sceens in movies. I am constantly grabbing the remote before I hear TURN IT DOWN. :-)

I've been catching up on Generation Kill episodes this week and can attest that the Dynamic Volume feature on my 1909 yielded an appreciable effect on "wife aggro". I call the three settings (Midnight, Evening, Day) "Don't wake the baby","Don't wake the neighbors",and "Don't piss off your wife in the other room."

Combined with MultiEQ and Dynamic EQ, my 1909 runs circles around the Onkyo 605 it replaced.

Originally posted by uplift1:
I've been catching up on Generation Kill episodes this week and can attest that the Dynamic Volume feature on my 1909 yielded an appreciable effect on "wife aggro". I call the three settings (Midnight, Evening, Day) "Don't wake the baby","Don't wake the neighbors",and "Don't piss off your wife in the other room."

Combined with MultiEQ and Dynamic EQ, my 1909 runs circles around the Onkyo 605 it replaced.

Thanks for the info. I too am think of replacing my 605 with either a 2809, 3808, or 876. I want something with dynamic volume and a little more power for my 7.1 setup.

Interesting thing to note with the 2809. When the source is selected as Tuner the FM channel gets displayed on the TV and also will display the volume. This may be common knowledge but since this is my first Denon receiver I thought it was cool and wanted to share it with those that may not be aware.

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