Maybe she's going for "chack"? As in Michael Chack, the 1993 US Men's bronze medalist. But I'm not entirely sure how pinky made the leap from a skater not being shown on TV when they probably should have to missing out on other things, like podiums.

This is what I don't get. People are mad that Ashley won with 2 falls in the LP instead of Gracie winning with a fall and a pop in the SP.

Yet, the men's winner performed perfectly, and people are complaining that Jeremy should have won because no way will Max get the 3rd spot back.

A lot of contradiction going on.

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I'm not mad anymore, just annoyed with both results but especially Gracie's. The judges gave her a HUGE score to try to get her on the team even with the others yet to skate. It was pre-ordained that Gold was going to Worlds no matter what the others did imo and nothing is going to change my mind on that one.

Wagner scored 3 more points in PCS at Nationals than at GPF for a similar performance, with her falls at GPF being a little more disruptive. I don't think the inflation for Wagner at Nationals was unreasonable, keeping in mind her record in the past 12 months.

Comparing Wagner and Gold head to head for the competition, both made 2 costly mistakes on jumps, with Gold making them at the supposedly costlier segment of the competition. While Gold had higher base values, Wagner was much more mature. If people think Wagner's presentation was contrived, it should also be noted that Gold was absolutely blank throughout. Overall, I agree with Wagner's win and her relative PCS advantage over Gold.

Given Gao's season, I am surprised USFS decided to promote Zawadzki over her. Gao totally deserved that bronze IMO. I would have had Hicks at 4th and Cesario 5th.

Siraj is a stiff version of Poykio. She had too many shaky moments but I would still have her 6th over Zawadzki. Zawadzki isn't that good or accomplished a skater who can make mistakes and still place high.

IMO placements for Nagasu and Zhang are about fair.

As to the podcast, I respect the opinion of the hosts / guests but I think the real issue isn't so much that the system sucks, but that there isn't enough explanation / information for what is going on. For one thing, the TV / jumbotron screen totally could have shown a break down of the 5 PCS and a short clip of < / << jumps that were called. This way anyone in the audience can enjoy a seemingly clean short program by Zhang but also witness the rotation issues on the big screen and thus understand why she got dinged. On TV, it really is the commentators not doing their job. They need to explain when someone has a lead over another person or when a jump is susceptible to calls. In this regard I think the British / Canadian commentators do a much better job.

Overall, a rotten Nationals, but glad to see Cesario do well here finally and get to go to Jr Worlds before she ages out! Hope she gets GPs next season (and get a 3/3)!

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Agreed except for the placements of Nagasu and Zhang. They were probably scored as they should-but Wagner and Gold weren't which is what makes it very unfair.

Maybe she's going for "chack"? As in Michael Chack, the 1993 US Men's bronze medalist. But I'm not entirely sure how pinky made the leap from a skater not being shown on TV when they probably should have to missing out on other things, like podiums.

You know, I asked myself that same question and I still don't have an answer. That's one of the reasons I'm so conflicted about the results. I don't really think Ashley deserved it based on the FS, but then again I wouldn't necessarily say Gracie was the clear winner either based on the on weak areas of her skating and poor SP. So who does that leave? Agnes? Courtney? Christina? I have no idea. I think Ashley was rewarded for her solid 12 months of skating and, given what's on the line, I agree with that. But that FS score was huge...but then again so was Gracie's...UGH!

I may go back and play judge -- re-watch the ladies' programs and score them to see where I'd place everyone. I did that for the novice level competition (I was bored at work) and it was fun. Plus the majority of my scores were in line with what the judges gave.

The funny thing about the novice level versus the senior level is the point spread in PCS among the judges. At the novice level, all of the judges' scores were within a point of each other. If you look at the protocols from the senior ladies event, you have judges handing out a much wider range of scores with huge gaps between some. Gracie's FS PCS ranged from 6.00-7.25 from one judge, while another judge gave her 8.00-9.00. That's a huge gap! Courtney's ranged from 5.75 to 8.75...again, another big gap. Are the judges even watching the same performances? It's just an illustration of how subjective and sometimes bias the scoring can be at these competitions.

This judging system is so redonkulous I don't even know how to handle it anymore...

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Thanks again kwanatic. Yeah, a lot to be said, obviously ... lots of rethunking, redonking, and debunking.

Anyways, you've provided some good insights and food for chewing on, or gagging on. You're right that it's hard to pick a clear winner. While watching, I thought Ashley would not win after the second fall (but, I mean Ryan Bradley, after botching landings on his two quad jumps in his 2011 Nats fp, still won partly due to his great sp and the fact he was favored that year). BTW, I was happy Ryan won (but sad for Jeremy who should have made the team that year, IMHO). And I'm happy that Ashley won in Omaha, but it's bittersweet -- I'm sure for her too. The dumping of Mirai contrasted with Ashley's fp marks was not helpful. I think that's partly why the expression on Ashley's face backstage -- she seemed to me not "smirking" as some have suggested, but sympathizing and also realizing that Mirai's lowball marks did not make justification for her own first place position any easier. Of course, Ashley has better programs and her overall skating in both programs was better than Mirai's. Not to mention Ashley's accomplishments and international standing both this season and last.

Overall re the ladies results, I think the judges boxed themselves into a corner. They were generally conservative in their marks for the short programs but kinda went a bit haywire in the fps (especially for the singles events). They clearly wanted to ensure that Gold made the team after she redeemed herself in the fp. Obviously, Ashley was the expected and favored winner, and they did not wish to handicap her status. Many fans seem to feel that USFS should let the chips fall where they may re the competition, and then choose who goes to Worlds and 4CC based on overall season or career results and current World standing. Of course USFS does now say that only the gold medalists at Nats are guaranteed spots on the World team, but they also seem unwilling to fiddle with the tradition of top medal winners receiving automatic berths to the World championships.

In the midst of all the brouhaha, I'd also like to point out that the USFS is not the only federation where Nationals scoring has been questionable. Obviously, ISU judging too has been notoriously booed, debunked and deconstructed (not to mention certain other high profile and unforgettable fs judging scandals ). So, although glaringly discomfiting, what happened at 2013 U.S. Nationals is nothing new. Although it is something that should be considered cautionary and not helpful for increasing the sport's fan base.

The suggestions some have made for better explanation of IJS scoring for television viewers, is excellent advice. Ultimately, I'm not sure what the best resolution is, beyond everyone skating lights out. Even then, what the judges decide would likely still be cause for grumbling, because politics and subjectivity are always factors in the scoring. Certainly, it would have made the judges' jobs easier had their favored skaters not messed up in either sp or fp, or both (a la Agnes).

I think Wagner vs Gold is a draw, and that Gao deserved to be in 3rd or at the least in 4th. And, based on her errors in both programs Agnes should have been in 4th or 5th. And based on her very good season and her excellent sp, and toughing it out in the fp, I feel Mirai deserved to be no lower than 5th. Courtney "Runaway Train" Hicks should have choo-chooed into 6th place, if that. And Samantha Cesario, in 7th over Yasmin Siraj, in 8th.

Another thought: It was cute hearing one of Gracie's coaches saying to her triumphantly after her fp: "You're Gracie Gold, you're Gracie Gold!" I think Gracie should feel quite happy with what she's accomplished and with the golden possibilities that sparkle ahead, but she also needs to keep her head steady and on straight. Because, Gracie's up against Ashley "Nike Girl" Wagner, Mao "Street Cred" Asada, "Queen" Yu Na Kim, Kaetlyn "Amazin'" Osmond, Carolina "Defending World Champion" Kostner, Akiko "Fiesty" Suzuki, Christina "How Now Harvard Girl" Gao, and scads of Russian Baby Ballerinas threatening to come into their own as Prima Ballerina Assolutas!

I don't think Nagasu was dumped so much as the judges didn't have much choice.

By the time she took the ice there was virtually no space between Wagner and Gold, so either she would skate super strongly and win it all, or she would drop to third or below. With all the visible cheats, a poor program and lifeless skating, plus an unreliable Nationals record and not outstanding GP season, the PCS were more than fair.

If Nagasu had skated like she did at 2010 Olympics or 2011 4CCs, I am sure the judges would be happy to reward her and give Gold a 4CCs spot instead. Darn the flu!

I agree. The judges rewarded her for skating well in the FS, this situation was a bit similar to 2011 Worlds in that the points among the top 10 or so were very close. Pretty much the entire penultimate group, save Cain, skated lights out. Then so did Gao and Siraj, Courtney and Agnes made less errors than Mirai, and Ashley with the SP lead barely edged out Gold as it was, so Mirai dropping to 7th wasn't that big of a shock. She didn't seem really upset by her scores either, 173 is solid, it wasn't until she saw she was 7th that she wound up upset.

Thanks again kwanatic. Yeah, a lot to be said, obviously ... lots of rethunking, redonking, and debunking.

Anyways, you've provided some good insights and food for chewing on, or gagging on. You're right that it's hard to pick a clear winner. While watching, I thought Ashley would not win after the second fall (but, I mean Ryan Bradley, after botching landings on his two quad jumps in his 2011 Nats fp, still won partly due to his great sp and the fact he was favored that year). BTW, I was happy Ryan won (but sad for Jeremy who should have made the team that year, IMHO). And I'm happy that Ashley won in Omaha, but it's bittersweet -- I'm sure for her too. The dumping of Mirai contrasted with Ashley's fp marks was not helpful. I think that's partly why the expression on Ashley's face backstage -- she seemed to me not "smirking" as some have suggested, but sympathizing and also realizing that Mirai's lowball marks did not make justification for her own first place position any easier. Of course, Ashley has better programs and her overall skating in both programs was better than Mirai's. Not to mention Ashley's accomplishments and international standing both this season and last.

Overall re the ladies results, I think the judges boxed themselves into a corner. They were generally conservative in their marks for the short programs but kinda went a bit haywire in the fps (especially for the singles events). They clearly wanted to ensure that Gold made the team after she redeemed herself in the fp. Obviously, Ashley was the expected and favored winner, and they did not wish to handicap her status. Many fans seem to feel that USFS should let the chips fall where they may re the competition, and then choose who goes to Worlds and 4CC based on overall season or career results and current World standing. Of course USFS does now say that only the gold medalists at Nats are guaranteed spots on the World team, but they also seem unwilling to fiddle with the tradition of top medal winners receiving automatic berths to the World championships.

In the midst of all the brouhaha, I'd also like to point out that the USFS is not the only federation where Nationals scoring has been questionable. Obviously, ISU judging too has been notoriously booed, debunked and deconstructed (not to mention certain other high profile and unforgettable fs judging scandals ). So, although glaringly discomfiting, what happened at 2013 U.S. Nationals is nothing new. Although it is something that should be considered cautionary and not helpful for increasing the sport's fan base.

The suggestions some have made for better explanation of IJS scoring for television viewers, is excellent advice. Ultimately, I'm not sure what the best resolution is, beyond everyone skating lights out. Even then, what the judges decide would likely still be cause for grumbling, because politics and subjectivity are always factors in the scoring. Certainly, it would have made the judges' jobs easier had their favored skaters not messed up in either sp or fp, or both (a la Agnes).

I think Wagner vs Gold is a draw, and that Gao deserved to be in 3rd or at the least in 4th. And, based on her errors in both programs Agnes should have been in 4th or 5th. And based on her very good season and her excellent sp, and toughing it out in the fp, I feel Mirai deserved to be no lower than 5th. Courtney "Runaway Train" Hicks should have choo-chooed into 6th place, if that. And Samantha Cesario, in 7th over Yasmin Siraj, in 8th.

Another thought: It was cute hearing one of Gracie's coaches saying to her triumphantly after her fp: "You're Gracie Gold, you're Gracie Gold!" I think Gracie should feel quite happy with what she's accomplished and with the golden possibilities that sparkle ahead, but she also needs to keep her head steady and on straight. Because, Gracie's up against Ashley "Nike Girl" Wagner, Mao "Street Cred" Asada, "Queen" Yu Na Kim, Kaetlyn "Amazin'" Osmond, Carolina "Defending World Champion" Kostner, Shizuka "Fiesty" Arakawa, Christina "How Now Harvard Girl" Gao, and scads of Russian Baby Ballerinas threatening to come into their own as Prima Ballerina Assolutas!

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Excellent analysis!

Hey everybody, bet you can't answer this question.

The following are quotes from another forum.

"She was never good enough even in her prime. She has never placed top 2 at Nationals even skating her best when the U.S were even weaker than today, and it seems the U.S is perennialy down to 2 spots. This year she wouldnt have placed much or any differently even skating her best, certainly not on the podium. So no hope for her."

"Her story is a bit baffling. I know she has flutzing and UR issues, but the majority of her skating isn't bad."

Just to add to what Marco said, Mirai did have the 4th highest PCS. It was her TES that dragged her down.

I would disagree, though, with your assessment of her GP season. I thought it was very good and reliable. Nothing brilliant, but a solid, respectable effort showing consistent improvement. Of all the US girls with 2 events, she did better over those two events than anyone except Ashley, I believe.

I'm not mad anymore, just annoyed with both results but especially Gracie's. The judges gave her a HUGE score to try to get her on the team even with the others had yet to skate. I was pre-ordained Gold was going to Worlds no matter what the others did imo and nothing is going to change my mind on that one.

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For someone not mad, you sure have posted this enough times. As has already been stated she was given 3.5 points in PCS than her earlier GP, and she skated far better here. Her 7 triples were of high quality, and she got +GOE for them...Ashley, Agnes, Christina and Mirai did not complete triples of comparable number, difficulty or quality. She was careful to get the best possible levels on her spins and footwork too. Yes, she was generously scored in the SP, but had she not skated 'lights out' in the LP (or if Agnes has not botched up yet another LP), Gracie wouldn't be going to Worlds.

I don't think Nagasu was dumped so much as the judges didn't have much choice.

By the time she took the ice there was virtually no space between Wagner and Gold, so either she would skate super strongly and win it all, or she would drop to third or below. With all the visible cheats, a poor program and lifeless skating, plus an unreliable Nationals record and not outstanding GP season, the PCS were more than fair.

If Nagasu had skated like she did at 2010 Olympics or 2011 4CCs, I am sure the judges would be happy to reward her and give Gold a 4CCs spot instead. Darn the flu!

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I agree that Nagasu's jumps were judged fairly, but I think it's unfortunate that a lot of other skaters got overlooked. I thought almost every jump Siraj did was under-rotated by some degree, yet she got no downgrades. I think Cesario's first flip was also >> worthy. Then there's Hicks and I'm proud of her for fixing her flutz, but she shouldn't get anything higher than mid 5's for PCS. I think Nagasu should have placed at least one place, if not two places, higher than she did.

I agree. The judges rewarded her for skating well in the FS, this situation was a bit similar to 2011 Worlds in that the points among the top 10 or so were very close. Pretty much the entire penultimate group, save Cain, skated lights out. Then so did Gao and Siraj, Courtney and Agnes made less errors than Mirai, and Ashley with the SP lead barely edged out Gold as it was, so Mirai dropping to 7th wasn't that big of a shock. She didn't seem really upset by her scores either, 173 is solid, it wasn't until she saw she was 7th that she wound up upset.

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Yes. And by the time she finished she knew she didn't skate well - she just didn't know so many other girls did better, hence the break down when her placement was shown.

Just to add to what Marco said, Mirai did have the 4th highest PCS. It was her TES that dragged her down.

I would disagree, though, with your assessment of her GP season. I thought it was very good and reliable. Nothing brilliant, but a solid, respectable effort showing consistent improvement. Of all the US girls with 2 events, she did better over those two events than anyone except Ashley, I believe.

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When she won 2008 Nationals, she was expected to win GPs in 2009 and contend alongside Yuna and Mao in 2010. To date, I don't believe she has won a single GP and in fact it took her many years to even medal at her first GP.

For this GP season, Wagner won both of her events, other than that none of the US girls medaled at both their events - Gao and Gold did manage a silver medal (and Gao made GPF). Nagasu and Zawadzki won a bronze only, but Zawadzki also won a fall international, with Gold winning the silver. Nagasu won the bronze from Finlandia. While all respectable, Nagasu's season so far would pale in comparison to some of these girls.

I agree that Nagasu's jumps were judged fairly, but I think it's unfortunate that a lot of other skaters got overlooked. I thought almost every jump Siraj did was under-rotated by some degree, yet she got no downgrades. I think Cesario's first flip was also >> worthy. Then there's Hicks and I'm proud of her for fixing her flutz, but she shouldn't get anything higher than mid 5's for PCS. I think Nagasu should have placed at least one place, if not two places, higher than she did.

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Many of Nagasu's jumps were cheated even to the naked eye. It's difficult to give her benefit of the doubt when almost all jumps need to be reviewed for rotation.

Hicks' foot is hideous, but she has good power and flow plus some complex moves in her programs.

For someone not mad, you sure have posted this enough times. As has already been stated she was given 3.5 points in PCS than her earlier GP, and she skated far better here. Her 7 triples were of high quality, and she got +GOE for them...Ashley, Agnes, Christina and Mirai did not complete triples of comparable number, difficulty or quality. She was careful to get the best possible levels on her spins and footwork too. Yes, she was generously scored in the SP, but had she not skated 'lights out' in the LP (or if Agnes has not botched up yet another LP), Gracie wouldn't be going to Worlds.

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Many of us have posted several times on the same subject. I'm sure you've done so too. If you're going to be rolling eyes at me rather than have a discussion like an adult I have nothing further to say to you.

With all of the attention on the senior ladies judging debacle, seems that Polina Edmunds got lost in the shuffle! (By the way, did Phil Hersh have any articles on her after her win at Nationals?) This girl has triple-triples and artistry and is only 14 years old! Why isn't USFS promoting the heck out of her, as they do with some skaters? What will they do with her next year if she skates the lights out of everyone at Nationals?! Can't understand why people on these boards and USFS are only looking to Ashley and Gracie for Sochi? Maybe new, fresh skaters should be promoted?

Hicks has huge jumps and decent presentation. She's very similar to Gracie, and to me their artistry is about on the same level. Gracie just gets bigger PCS marks because of her hype and also she's cover girl pretty with longer limbs and a more ideal body type compared to Courtney. I feel bad saying that, but on some level I think it's true. USFS is probably just happy they found a skater who can do a 3lz-3t and has huge powerful jumps like Tonya Harding, but happens to be exceptionally pretty with a body type longer and leaner than one would expect from a power jumper. I also think the same thing helped Yuna Kim...usually, female skaters who jump so well and so big are usually associated with being "butch" or "mannish", so when some teen can jump like that and still look feminine and attractive, it's like, OMG best skater ever.