399 Responses to Have you come across any interesting wildlife news? February 29, 2012

Some outfitters from the Dark Side never learn. Longtime serial offendor B. Joe Coy of Cody Wy was successfully prosecuted for 5 recent hunting violation involving illegal guiding , illegal outfitting , wasting meat , etc. Coy was guiding a bighorn sheep hunter illegally , but the Wisconsin hunter had one of the five or so special discretionary ” Governor’s Tags” handed out yearly as fundraising incentives for the blue chip sportsman’s organizations.

Surprisingly, Coy retained his outfitter’s license from recent year’s transgressions, but had honest-to-god been 86’d from the Shoshone National Forest , losing his permit and campsite. He was still allowed to guide hunts on BLM lands. There are no legal bighorn ramss to speak of on Wyoming BLM lands during the autumn sheep season , only over the winter if at all. That did not deter him. He went right back to hunting where he wasn’t supposed to, but got nailed for it.

Immer
Didn’t look like a charge, looked like the bear was scared of something around the bend. A charge is about intimidation that was a bear caught between humans and something it didn’t like even more than humans.

It sure looked as though he was spooked by something he saw (maybe a bigger bear?).

I kept waiting for the charge of the tourists. It did not look like threatening behavior. But still enough to give anyone close an adreneline rush, and a strong resolve to overcome an urge to leave quickly.

Immer
You can bet on that I would guess that’s what they were there for just a little more than expected.
Living with large predators one learns the only predator to run from is man, also the only one you can out run, so just enjoy the rush. It almost always things end well.

Finally looked at it on a full screen. I think you are correct, something spooked it, and you could see the bear continually looking back. Still, as much as it’s adrenaline was flowing, I bet there was an equal amount flowing among the folks visiting.

and it looks as though, (reminiscent of “w”‘s exit from his residency in our house), he plans to ramrod every ugly, ill-intended policy through before the door hits him in the a$$ as he gets booted from office in a couple months. May the boot slip from the people’s foot and remain permanently embedded up his… So he can “feel the people’s pain”.

I’m hoping after the recall that something could be to reverse some of his criminal acts. BTW,He also wants to loosen mining restrictions! This man is like a terrible cancer! I am even more depressed now – even more than when Reagan got elected!!!

I live here too. The recall cannot get here soon enough.It’s not just Walker though. Suder, the Fitzgeralds, Grothman, etc. are just as dangerous. What is even more disturbing is how many Democrats are behind this awful wolf bill. Walker and his goons have declared war on the environment, wildlife, women, minorities, union members, and now single parents. Check out what Sen. Grothman said about single parents:

Wow, And I thought Otter’s misguided finders on fish & wildlife issues in Idaho were bad. Despite the gut wrenching illness that article conjures up, to those who appreciate the Leopold legacy, it was a well writen piece.

I think the Right Wing influence, behind a lot of the Republican wave, should be called the “Wrong Wing.”

It better reflects their mission and corruption of true conservation values.
Conservatives? Just what are they conserving, aside from domination and tyranny?

(I almost feel sorry for historic Republicans – the real ones, before the party flew off into outer space).

Here news about the Northern Spotted Owl. Barred owls have spread from the East hopping through suburban eco zones. They are now pushing out their Western cousins. But as with most efforts to surpress invasive species the task might be unachievable.

And more worrisome news about the Southern Sea Otter. Until recently the state prevented range expansion to the South by capturing and transporting animals back to the central coast. Range expansion should help some of the problems listed in the article. Hope it’s not too late.

That report from Canada a few weeks back showed us what is coming. They want all environmental groups to be labeled as “terrorists” and to put us on the same level as Al Qaeda. That is why we need to police our ranks and not give them an excuse. They are quick to label all wildlife advocates/environmentalists as being cut from the same cloth, but bristle when the same is done to hunters or their ilk. Basically the corporations and anti-wildlife interests want to criminalize environmentalism.

The Wisconsin Senate Natural Resources Committee just passed the wolf killing bill on a 5-2 vote. This thing is being rammed through at record speed, and will likely become law soon. I fear for the wolves in Wisconsin.

1.)Night hunting was one area that a proposed amendment attempted to eliminate, but it failed on a vote of 9-5.

Just plain stupid. Besides wolves I wonder how many innocent dogs might end up in someones cross hairs.

2. On a separate vote, the Wisconsin DNR would not pay depredation fees to hunters who lose a dog while those dogs are either being trained to hunt, or being used in an active hunt for wolves. That amendment failed 10-4.

I’m not sure I understand how this one is to be interpreted. Dog owners will or will not be compensated?

The bear hounders will still be compensated from the license fees for the wolf, while being able to hound wolves 24 hours a day for 4 1/2 months. This is just one of the insane parts of this bill. Where is the outrage about this? This is easily as extreme as anything Idaho and Wyoming are trying to do.

On top of that I was told from an impeccable source that the HSUS people on the ground were told by the folks in charge not to fight this bill, because they want to suck up to Wisconsin so that they pass an exotic animal ban. That basically gave them a green light to be as extreme as possible with this bill. The HSUS position may change when the bill passes, but I am very disappointed that they chose this route. This bill will have grave consequences nationwide for wolves especially if the Feds let them get away with it.

Paul, today March 6th, the state senate passed it 24-9 and is expected to pass the assembly and it will be law. It’s basically the deer and bear hunters who raised the most concern. 20 dogs were killed last year(mostly bear dogs). Of course it’s the deer hunters who are screaming the most because the harvest was down 20% – is it less deer or because they have changed their habits? Last fall I was in the Nicolet Forest and saw tons of deer – makes me wonder. Also, can all this be blamed on wolves, how ’bout CWD and habitat destruction?
Just a quick note, on a drive back to our remote campsite we were driving down a dirt road and within 2 minutes I saw 10 deer, a wolf and a small black bear. Today I told my boys – be glad you saw the wolf because you may never see one again!

I was at the Capitol on Monday attempting to fight this thing. I watched the vote today on WI Eye and they did not even debate the bill. Not one word from anyone other than the vote. This is absolutely shameful. I saw at the Capitol how the Wisconsin Bear Hunters Association has the lawmakers wrapped around their fingers.

It is really nice to hear from a fellow Wisconsinite who doesn’t buy into the bear hounders crap. Bear/wolf hounder trespassing is going to get far worse in the Northwoods, especially now that they can do it at night. There is also a bill to remove the requirement of hunters to wear back tags so catching trespassers will be even more difficult. It is shameful to see how far our state has fallen from our progressive roots.

Dave, Barred Owls have been in Washington since 1973 and Oregon since 1978. I can`t find any information on why their population has increased in recent times. Of course the timber industry claim is, if you don`t kill Barred Owls why keep protecting all that timber for Spotted Owls?

The barred owl expansion westward was enabled by our alteration of habitat which removed natural barriers to range expansion. Their numbers have steadily increased and their affect on spotteds has been made clearer by extensive research on the spotted.

I have been living the insanity in Wisconsin first hand and just when you think that it cannot get anymore extreme it does. What is even more disturbing is that the polls are still showing an about 50/50 split on the Walker recall. I just cannot believe what happened in my state. I never saw this coming, certainly not here of all places. As I said in an earlier post its like I fell asleep in Wisconsin and woke up in Texas or Alabama. Each day it is one extreme right wing bill after another. Kill the unions, tell discrimination victims that they cannot get punitive damages, loony anti-abortion bills, kill wolves, kill cranes, fill in the wetlands, allow mining next to water sources. They even had proposals to do away with clean drinking water rules. All of this in the birthplace of progressivism. If the recalls of Walker and his ilk fail, I don’t know what will happen here, but I know that I no longer want to be a part of it.

It is sad. I lived in Wisconsin for a number of years, a few decades ago, and was thrilled at the progressive nature of the place. But I also saw the arrival of the refugees in Muriel Boat Lift thing which brought about a third of the released criminals going to Ft. McCoy and slowly released into the public realm. (I carried shipment of tear gas to the Fort, several times, and was under a super secure agreement about what I saw and knew about what was happening there at the time.) Subsequently the nightlife in Madison became akin to something out of a John Wayne western movie when these unfortunate Cubans started knifing and shooting up the clientele in the clubs. Not pretty and the change was rapid. I moved away shortly afterward.

I think that any of the polls showing public sentiment are skewed by the kochheads, corporate media, and not a true assessment of the reality. As long as they can’t co-opt the actual elections, I think you folks can get your individual lives back in some semblance of order that previously prevailed. If they can screw the recall, there will be hell to pay. General strike anyone?

Problem: ALEC and it’s foot soldiers out there screwing up the legislative process. It’s succeeding in some places but I think that we the people will fight back will full force. The problem there would be crap like the legislation proposed in GA that makes protests and anything that looks like it might be a protest as a federal offense.

(Did someone mention that particular conspiracy theory about concentration camps in the desert?) I think that there are factors at work, hidden from the populace, that are extremely dangerous, a war monguering faction fueled by the MIC that we need to beware of at every level. I can’t think of one major corporation that would not subscribe to such an assault on humanity given the rewards they perceive.

I think that’s the big picture, take-home message of all this clearly orchestrated assault on our democracy. Conspiracy theory or not. (What happens when the conspiracy theories come true?) And is that what we are seeing take place in our nation at present?

It appears as if those sage solons known as the Ravalli County Commissioners are about to put on their 7 League Boots to leap completely over state and federal wildlife management regulations and adopt a wolf bounty. $ 100 for adult wolves ; $ 20 for pups, to be paid for by a new fee on livestock. Allt his because they fear taking only 75 percent of the wolf hunt quota ( 165 wolves shot statewide , but only 6 of 18 in Ravalli county ) simply wasn’t enough …that the quota should be met by any means necessary.

Starting to look a lot like the time to petition to re-list them in the NRM with extension of the critical habitat area to include all the rest of MT,WY,ID, and all of OR, WA and northern CA,UT,NV and CO (or perhaps everything west of the Mississippi River). And I would further argue that since they have been “de-listed” and now require “re-listing”, the “nonessential, experimental” designation is now null and void as well as any incarnation of the 10(j)Rule.

Similar to the current “flush limpjaw” flap about women, these folks have revealed their true intentions and glee in taking part in the brutal elimination of this species for the sake of being brutally, gruesomely heinous to this particular species, (the rewards of which are political gain amongst an unpopular bully faction… and money, of course).

I wanted to ask you if you have seen the movie Gasland? Looking at the reviews, most people give very favorable opinions. There are a few that said it was amateur with no real science… That said, I recall reading (Discover or some magazine like that) about drinking water problems in Wyoming and other Western States where natural gas exploration has occurred.

I have only seen clips from the film. I know the film-maker was escorted out of a Congressional hearing on it (may have involved the EPA at that event) but the (R)s were shamed by a video of his removal and subsequent news interviews.

I know there has been a big fight over the Pinedale water area where locals have been using bottled water for some time. Since the state authorities are pretty much in the pockets of the kockindutries’ oligarchy, the locals suffer from not having access to clean, safe water and have to pay more for the water they use. It’s quite a racket…

I was in Pavillion a few months ago and met some of the “stars” of “Gasland” – nice people who own some land and hoped to retire there or at least sell the property and retire elsewhere. Instead they have poisoned water – did not just smell like gasoline, more like diesel, in fact, smelled like the insides of an auto or truck mechanics shop – lots of petro, oil, but also loads of volatile solvents – only this was from their kitchen taps inside their houses.

Several use bottled water for drinking, but still take showers, perhaps wash clothes in this crap – exposing themselves to all kinds of chemicals, day in, day out.

Several have some pretty serious health problems including one woman that has come down with neurological symptoms and severe pain – perhaps autoimmune problems associated with chemical sensitivities developed from the exposures.

Anyway, they have gotten rid of their stock, some pets like dogs have died prematurely, one guy (featured in Gasland) had attempted to drill a new, deeper drinking water well, but instead hit natural gas where it did not belong (fracking?), blew up the drilling rig, and was venting natural gas for days before he was forced to sign his life and property away (liability?) to EnCana before they were willing to cap this raging gas well next to his house and shop. He did it since they were the only option with the technical know-how to stop it. funny thing, the Shoshone-Arapahoe from the nearby reservation threatened to send this guy a bill for wasting their natural gas – they wanted lots of $$$ for the millions of cubic yards of natural gas that went into the Pavillion atmosphere – nice greenhouse gas effects, too.

Some folks in Pavillion area have okay water still and are angry because of depressed property prices and sales; and still others get big checks for EnCana because of facilities like compressor stations, with relatively larger footprints (unlike a single well) on their property. Of course, these folks refute the folks fighting fracking in Pavillion, WY and the EPA, and support the State, the tribes, and EnCana.

I’ve got Gasland and make copies available to people who really need to see it.

A LOT of Josh’s fottage ended up on the cutting room floor. For instance , he shot a huge amount of material north of Cody up near Clark WY where a Windsor Energy gas well blew out and wrecked the water for miles around. That was six years ago…not much has been resolved.

There is an awful lot more to be video’ed for documentaries on fracking.

Josh Fox is working on a sequel to Gasland. That’s why he wasn’t allowed in the hearings.

I’ve rarely seen as much industry brought to bear on an environmental issue as with Fracking. The deflection and disinformation by industry is off the charts. The propaganda machine is at full RPM and the lobbyists dry cleaning bills are escalating, too…those silk suits are really getting a workout. The nation’s misguided lust and focussed greed for domestic natural gas have resulted in its purveyors reaching new heights of economic/political corruption. The 21st century Robber Barons aren’t like their 19th century grandpas who used blunt instruments and personal treacheries to achieve their avacriciousal means…they are hiring some high dollar talent and resorting to some slick inside operations to get rid of ” obstacles” to their realization of obscene profits at any cost . Fracking will become utterly scandalous if the Hydrocarbon Hegemony loses control of it or can’t quash the clamor around it. Hint: check out the emerging fracking debacles just now arising in Alberta, Canada , also perped by EnCana, which is headquartered in Calgary. EnCana and Halliburton et al are doing what US Steel , Standard Oil and the railroads were doing 140 years ago…hellbent capitalism without respect for natural resources

This web site is like a search engine only it’s about who’s connected to whom… like the you-know-who-brothers and the pipeline and tarsands folks. Just find them on the listings (there’s lots of them to choose from in the category list on the right side of the page) and let the “map” show you who’s connected to whom and through what means they are connected. It’s revealing at the very least.

“But Rep. Tom Hackbarth, R-Cedar, who is carrying the bill in the House, said he’s not thrilled with the language.”

“I don’t like making people criminals,” he said. “It’s the DNR’s bill, and I’m not going to gut it. I’ve already made some changes they don’t like.”

He doesn’t like making criminals, criminals. they also want to lower the fine for wolf poaching from $2000 to $500. What have I said about the hunting community policing their own? It is proposals like these that make me very skeptical.

The windbag representative is transparently playing both sides of the issue, saying he opposes that part of the bill but still carrying the overall bill.

As for hunters policing themselves, the article clearly states the DNR’s bill will dramatically increase the punishment for illegaly baiting deer and that it is supported by the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association, a consistent advocate for punishing deer poachers more severely.

The fine for poaching wolves was bound to come down after their de-listing, but it is unsettling to see any poaching fee reduced.

“State and federal bioloigsts at the National Park Service, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife, NOAA’s Northwest Fisheries Science Center in Seattle, and the tribe’s habitat biologist have advised the tribe against planting Chambers Creek steelhead in the Elwha River.”

This is not the first year I have seen both tracks and actual animals this early, we had bears out and about last year also this early, and I still had about 5 feet of snow on the ground last year at this time. I also observed two blacks in January this year, that never seemed to have gone into hibernation and that was not the first time I have seen this over the last 20 years.

There is very little snow on the ground right now, I have about 6 inches after this last weekend. Last year, they were hitting garbage cans and bird feeders, this year, they are grazing, at least what I have observed. This year and years past, they have hit the beet pulp in the horse ranchers barns, you can never tell.

Don’t know about your area SB but for the last 10 years or so it seems winters just aren’t packing much of a punch anymore. (Last year being an exception)

This winter, first I can recall, there were no 15-20 below zero nights and no lingering days in the single digits.

Had a little front come thru last night with high winds. It dumped 3-4 inches but all in all, the last couple of days? Feels like spring to me The melt is on and the Red Wings are back. Bluebirds should be arriving in another week or so.

Actually I remember the year after 96-97 being about the same as it is this year, big snow in 96-97, then mild winters for a couple of year, then of course last year was a heavy snow year, with many cold days, this year petty mild, have been able to keep the drive way open with the snow blower, have not had to use the plow once this year.

I got about two feet of snow over the past ten days and another 10-12″ today, and a lot melted yesterday. Still, the songbirds here, I saw meadow larks out in the Madison Valley the other day. And I saw a hatch of something take place near the river where there was still a couple feet of snow on the ground.

Interesting. The BOR reports most parts of WA east side of the Cascades are at 101% snowpack, with reservoirs at 134% capacity (for this time of year), and an overall good water years is predicted. Cold temps, with threats of snow in the Puget Sound convergence zone this week, and we have had frost the last couple of nights, which probably won’t help out some of the early bloom flowers that get tricked around here sometimes.

Just got back from a trip to Boise to see Ken Cole, among other things.

We had breakfast in a great restaurant. Behind the eating area they had some art work, including a wooden statue of Governor Butch Otter. It was a masterpiece . . . about 5 feet tall, reflecting his stature. Wooden Butch was standing on a dead wolf (but it seemed to be grinning). He had has rifle at his side and was holding a meticulously caved bottle of Jack Daniels.

My first take on this hyper-imagery is that this shows the hunting and governing “ethic” of the dominant “class” of Idaho. And many in that state wonder why they have the state reputation they do…

Cowboy with a gun and a jug of cheap sourmash in obvious glee at having killed a should-be-still-listed-on-the-ESA species. It’s a gleeful celebration of the hatred these clowns have for the natural world that they haven’t beaten into submissive control yet.

statistical evidence that pepper spray really works (and guns not so much)http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53651498-78/bear-smith-bears-gun.html.csp
“”In previous statistical studies, Smith has demonstrated that pepper-spray is effective in deterring aggressive bears. “Out of 176 incidents, there were only three injuries, just scratches,” Smith said of his pepper spray findings. And no bears died.””

I didn’t see your post on this study about guns v. bear (pepper) spray this morning…(I posted it too, a little further down).

———–

What I found interesting was the low level of physical harm that came to the vast majority of those who who did not shoot a fire arm-though there was one present in every case in this study-for whatever reason and/or used pepper spray.

Longtime bear biologist Tom Smith and colleagues analyzed 269 incidents of close-quarter bear-human conflict in Alaska between 1883 and 2009 in which a firearm was involved. They found the gun made no statistical difference in the outcome of these encounters, which resulted in 151 human injuries and 172 bear fatalities…”

“We’re encouraged by the fact that we reached the quota in three wolf management units (WMUs), came to within two harvests in six other WMUs, and reached more than half the quota in all but two WMUs,” said Ken McDonald, chief of FWP’s wildlife bureau in Helena.

However, the state agency also realizes that some people believe too many wolves are present on the landscape and they’re having a negative impact on big game animals like elk and deer.

At the Wednesday work session, which starts at 1 p.m. at the FWP headquarters, the commission will hear about additional tools to increase the wolf harvest in 2012. Options include allowing hunters to take more than one wolf or to purchase more than one hunting license; allowing the use of electronic calls; reconsidering statewide quotas; and possibly increasing the length of the season.

The FWP commissioners will consider the options for the 2012-13 wolf season at their May meeting and make a final decision in July.”

Keith Kubista, president of the Montana Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, however, praised the commissioners’ efforts and said his organization fully supports the policy.

FWP denying an extension of the wolf hunt in the West Fork of the Bitterroot is a clear example of why something of this nature needs to be done on the local level, Kubista said. And he hopes FWP listens up and puts Montana on par with Idaho’s wolf hunts.

“They are in rapid progressions restoring and recovering their hunting opportunities, their wildlife and their rural economies such as ours that are reliant on the hunting industry as a whole,” Kubista said.

A lone voice of reason:

Marc Cooke of the National Wolfwatcher Coalition blasted the policy. The policy points to wolves as carriers of disease, saying they “may act as a vector for parasites responsible for hydatid cyst diseases.” Cooke countered by saying that by killing more wolves perform sanitation for diseases.

“Eventually you’re pushing the carriers of diseases to skunks and raccoons. Are we going to kill them next?” Cooke said.

“The hysteria has to quiet down a little bit,” he said. “I’m disappointed special interest is trumping the best available science.”

Longtime bear biologist Tom Smith and colleagues analyzed 269 incidents of close-quarter bear-human conflict in Alaska between 1883 and 2009 in which a firearm was involved. They found the gun made no statistical difference in the outcome of these encounters, which resulted in 151 human injuries and 172 bear fatalities”

“Out of 176 incidents, there were only three injuries, just scratches,” Smith said of his pepper spray findings. And no bears died.

Charlie Russell painted about 6 paintings of bear attacks with the person either on foot or horse back. Would one of Russell’s paintings have the same value if the person being attacked had a can of bear spray and a high tech jacket with a Patagonia label spraying the bear. I doubt it.

My favorite Russell painting is the packer crossing a river, probably the Sun River, with two pack horses and sow and her two cubs are charging from the rear. The packer is dawning his Winchester from the scabbard as the pack horses are panicking and his horse starting to fuss.

I know that Russell died in the 1920’s (1926), my father is one of the few people or maybe the last person alive that went to his funneral, he was 2 years old. Charlie painted my grandparents a medium sized Indian on a horse for there wedding present.

oh by the way…in the closing hurrahs of the Wyoming Legislature today , the dubious Wyoming wolf management bill sailed thru both state houses faster than the proverbial county fair greased pig. The sound of the thudding rubber stamps reverberated statewide…

Guv Mead has ordained a public signing spectacle for 4 PM Wednesday March 7 , a day that shall live in infamy…

Does anyone out there have any information about the UN and our national parks. For the last few years I have been trying to figure out what is really going on. I have searched hundreds of articles on the subject of the UN actually owning some of the parks like Yellowstone, Grand Canyon,etc. I understand about them becoming World Heritage sites or whatever and pardon the “foxism” but some people say Clinton gave up ownership to the UN as a way to pay off interest on the national debt, etc. Sounds a little hokey to me. I’m hoping maybe Ralph or Ken or anyone else might be able to shed some more light on this subject. I saw a video by Alex Jones and he’s convinced this is true. I am skeptical yet concerned. I know the Rockefellers had a lot to do with the Grand Teton and Yellowstone areas and heard about some of the things the Rothchilds and alike are doing – as some relate this to the “new world order” and that kind of stuff and it makes me wonder! Any input would be appreciated – I hope I don’t sound too misinformed, so help me out if you can.

Jim, several National Parks are “World Heritage Sites” including Yellowstone, Yosemite, Grand Canyon and Everglades. As such they have been declared not only national treasures, but treasures of the world. They are, therefore, subject to the following statement from the UNESCO website:
“States Parties have an obligation to regularly prepare reports about the state of conservation and the various protection measures put in place at their sites. These reports allow the World Heritage Committee to assess the conditions at the sites and, eventually, to decide on the necessity of adopting specific measures to resolve recurrent problems. One of such measures could be the inscription of a property on the List of World Heritage in Danger.”
Some individuals, shall we say “wing nuts”?, believe that this in some way means that we have turned ownership of these parks over to the UN. Apparently some of these individuals have no problem selling off public lands to the highest bidder, but find it extremely offensive that we might seek management advice from the international community. All good ideas are not born inside our borders.
There are hundreds of these “World Heritage” sites around the globe. To my knowledge none of them has been taken over by black helicopters.
Rest assured that you and I (and the other citizens and taxpayers of the US) still own Yellowstone!

The Bay Area PBS flagship station KQED has an interview with retired NRM Wolf Coordinator Ed Bangs. Nothing new in the transcript; just good to see the issue from a California perspective vis-a-vis the wandering wolf OR7 that briefly sojourned in northern California looking for a mate.

It’s definitely a heads up kind of thing. Planes are already being re-routed away from the poles due to considerable comm. interference. Could get messy. I’ve been told that it might be healthy for computers if they weren’t on, not sure about that but the web sure is getting real slow this afternoon and some more rural friends lost cell phone service days ago… we think it might be connected.

“Thanks to Idaho’s hunters and trappers, we’ve made good progress in getting the wolf population under control and into better balance with prey species, such as elk, but we’ve still got a ways to go,” said Jim Unsworth, Fish and Game’s deputy director.

Otter complained to Congress about the wolves last week, testifying in Washington, D.C., that wolf reintroduction had been forced on the state and the federal government should be “exploring a long-term funding mechanism to mitigate this federal action.”

He argued that the feds should be paying for wolf and elk management costs in Idaho, and that “livestock producers should be reimbursed for confirmed and probable livestock losses.”

Otter’s office said the state was instead told to expect a gradual cut in federal wolf management dollars over the next four years from $704,000 down to zero.

This pound of poop is exactly the dog-whistle clarion call I heard out of the mouth of senator wide-stance, numerous times, along with the prophecy of some little girl being eaten by a wolf while waiting for the school bus in the dark. And in the same breath whine about how the feds owe the state restitution for the elk that the wolves eat and referring to the elk as “domestic wildlife”. And all the wolf haters who got up to speek ther mahnds regurgitated the term “domestic wildlife” (and a vast array of definitions to this term were sort of articulated) while whining about the imposition of wolves into their antiseptic lives in the wild parts of Idaho among the cows.

There’s been no progress in quelling this ignorance-born hatred, we’ve tried for years…

To go along with this video piece, the Columbia Basin Project, which diverts water at Grand Coulee Dam (up to 2% of annual river flow)for the massive irrigation effort in the interior basinof Eastern WA has also resulted in water bodies that have provided habitat for fish and waterfowl for the past 75 years. Lots of warm and some cold water fishies inhabing man made sloughs,ponds, canals and seasonal irrigation ditches. That area would otherwise be a pretty parched and desolate landscape.

I saw something about this a few weeks ago when McDonalds said they were removing it from their beef. I am so glad that I adopted vegetarianism. It makes you wonder what other crap is put in the food we consume. That is just flat out nasty!

Clicked on Home to see other articles and got a couple bells ringing and then my virus program announced a threat had been detected – the box claimed it was a Trojin Horse virus. Anyone else experience that while on the site?

I have experienced Trojan horse attacks a few times while reading articles on the MJ web site, and a few other alternative news sources. Current TV and related sites are also vectors for this kind of stuff. Looks like a sort of “jamming” strategy to thwart inquiring minds from obtaining knowledge deemed not fit to print by the main-stream-corporate-media. Knowledge is a dangerous thing, according to the oligarchy.

Often times what your virus program thinks is a trojan or virus is not, there are allot of false positives in the internet world, most of the time, they are simply cookies, such as tracking cookies that follow you around to see how they can advertise to you.

“I have experienced Trojan horse attacks a few times while reading articles on the MJ web site”

Sadly, my virus protection program, while notifying me of the threat, did nothing to prevent it from coming in and having “its way” with my computer.

So $110 bucks later (labor to clean out what was on there and the cost of a hopefully better virus protection program) I’m back online but no longer willing to just “click” on links, here or anywhere else

Looks like these a-holes (or at least one) may receive a little poetic justice, after getting caught by their own traps. Let them(co-conspirators) angish, as do critters when confined by human contrivances.

When you read about how a guy like Rossi came into a position of influence, it’s demoralizing to think that Sarah Palin was able to get as much national support as she did. I can hardly even believe it.

Folks have long suspected that Peay’s organization, SFW, was a stalking horse for the rich Texas hunter, the Arab oil sheik, or the fat radio purveyor of right wing prattle. Now he finally says it. Peay believes hunting and fishing (though he rarely speaks of fish) is for the 1%.

I generally look at the Monster Mulies web site once a week and only pay attention to articles with controversies or the Montana section. In the last couple of weeks there has been hundreds of postings regarding SFW. Ninety five percent of the posts are against SFW and disparaging Don Peavy. Don Peavy and his SFW have no place in western fish and wildlife management. Thankfully they have had minimal influence in Montana. Don Peavy and a handful of guides and outfitters want to control western hunting.

“Peay described that egalitarian doctrine, found in Alaska’s state constitution and laws throughout the West, as “socialism.” It offers no economic incentive for landowners to kill predators, improve big game habitat and even provide food and water for target species”

Kill predators? Improve big game habitat? Provide for target species?

Guessing Peary might of been schooled hard as a kid and grew up with this “doctrine” :

Bet he won’t give up his socialist social security checks… or stop driving on the socialist-built roads or trust a pilot of whatever aircraft he’s riding in that they and the socialist FAA know what they are doing and do it in a safe, systematic manner to socially ensure his safety… Some people.

I know it’s mostly based on politics (this article especially) but the political functions of our time is the main topic permeating all discourse, especially with regard to the wildlife and wild lands that concern us here.

“She added that the veterinarian believed injuries were three to five days old, placing the attacks within a March 3-5 time span”

3-5 days old? Yep! Sure sounds like the rancher was taking extra steps to keep an eye on his cattle. Got a pack of opportunistic wolves in the area, cows calving and you’re only checking every 3-5 days?

Now, let’s consider if this rancher lived say, ten or even twenty miles from where his cattle were (the article says he was relying on help from neighbors). You want him to come out every day to check?

Then, we know alot of wolf activity happens at night or early morning. So, he is supposed to adjust his day so that he can tend to his cows to shoo wolves away or hire somebody to do it for him? This was private land. And, as they say, time is money in any business (travel, an extra 20 to 40 miles on the truck on a gravel road maybe, with gas pushing $4/gallon, etc.)

These are all costs the rancher might not have had to contend with before wolves. I think he has a right to be a little pissed.

1) If the wolves hadn’t been removed in the first place, this guy probably wouldn’t be ranching in that area. But because it was “cleansed” he expects that it should always be that way just because he’s there, thus the taxpayers ~ by way of the WS hitsquad ~ should take care of his cattle for him by removing the wildlife from his damned cows. Maybe he should do his job or find something else to do with his life.

2) If the rancher wants to have his cattle that far from his home, he needs to HIRE someone to be out there with them… like the old fashioned cowboys supposedly did. (Range Riders anyone?)

3) If the rancher was really interested in protecting his cattle he’d be a little more attentive to how well they are actually protected… see #2 above. (Makes me wonder what other losses he may have suffered in the recent past that he’d just as soon blame on those dastardly wolves.)

I’m not saying the wolves didn’t do it but there is that nasty little element in the hatred playbook that describes how to set wolves up for such determinations by way of “waiting” until things are ripe and a good story can be fabricated… this happens more than you’d like to think. And they will use any excuse to make sure the wolves get the blame for everything, as is so often the case with these folks.

I am not sure who holds the high ground on the “pretzel logic. Your version: if wolves were never erdicated this guy’s problem wouldn’t exist. Yeah, you’re right. But that is not the way of the real world, and hasn’t been in this area for about 150 years. These folks are out there trying to make a living, and to be sure, not everybody in eastern OR is as well off as an ID land baron living off the public teat with a hand full of heavily subsidizes grazing leases.

Range riders, guard dogs, etc. cost $$$. It was only a couple hundred miles from here in the early Oregon Territory the first provisional government was started on the Champogue or French Prairie. The settlers got together and decided they needed somebody to help with dealing with wolves eating their livestock.

I guess these livestock that got chewed up pretty good, but were not dead (three heifers get chewed on, including the heifer they had to put down w/ unborn calf, and yet another calf was missing) are just the by-product of the wolves “testing” the herd, and culling out the diseased ones (laughing here).

Rather than “pretzel logic,” I think of this situation more like Gordian Knot, a metaphor for something that is complicated and has no real easy solutions.

Rather than “pretzel logic,” I think of this situation more like Gordian Knot, a metaphor for something that is complicated and has no real easy solutions.

Wrong, again. The Gordian Knot was only a complexity to those who tried to wrangle with a piece of rope that was so entangled and such a mess that most gave up until Alexander the Great came along and solved the problem by cutting the knot ~ how’s that for an easy solution? ~ rather than worrying about how to undo something that seems undoable due to piecemeal strategies that were, by design of the knot, unable to resolve the problem of untying the knot.

This, however does make for a good metaphor with regard to the collaborate or not scenario. When collaboration fails due to continuous injections of red herrings by one side in order to circumvent having to actually obey the law because they don’t like it, the best manner to end the conflict is to cut the Gordian Knot by moving beyond the impasse and taking it to the most (supposedly) unbiased arbiter, the legal system… that’s why we have it.

In this rancher’s case the “Knot” would represent his stale animal husbandry practices, cutting through it would be for him to do his damned job. And before you start ranting about the costs, I want you to give me one example where any private small business (other than the oligarchs who rule most things these days and trust-funders) that doesn’t experience costs of doing business in order to make the business work.

Here’s an example:

Say I own a saloon and some individual comes in and shoots up the place and kills 2 out of 10 employees; do I fall on my knees and wail about how much it’s gonna cost me to hire more employees, or to add a better security system to protect my employees? Will the constabulary come and kill all the people in the surrounding twenty miles that might look like they might have a gun or done the deed in hopes that they got the shooter and promise to do it again next time that happens without advising me to get a better security system?

Sorry, yours is the Red Herring argument based on pretzel logic.

(…and if you aren’t sure about a story and all its pertinent details, maybe you should either school yourself about it, especially if you intend its use to be that of a parable, or come up with another one that you actually know. Obviously you didn’t get the point on the Gordian Knot.)

Yeah, you’re right. But that is not the way of the real world, and hasn’t been in this area for about 150 years.

Yeah, and in that 150 years, a whole bunch of things have changed and that old, worn out paradigm of “ranchers’ rule” is thread bare while the arguments have rinds so thick that there’s just no pulp left. All that pissing and moaning from the rancher barons is another waste of good air that could be put to better use by endangered species.

It’s 2012!!! Wake up and smell your a$$ on fire, get with the times.

“…because the world will turn if you’re ready or not…” K. T. Tungstall

I have tried playing chess with you on a three dimensional board, but you have gone into yet a fourth dimension, for which I am afraid I have yet to learn how the pieces move. In other words we are in the same neighborhood, just different planets. LOL

And as for Alexander the Great’s solution to the Gordian knot, it is good to be the King, yes? One reason I am reluctant to use metaphors or analogies on this forum -they seem to break down for some here when they are taken beyond their intended purpose. Lesson learned.

…And, Salle, I should have mentioned (again at the risk of the metaphor being misconstrued) that Captain Kirk of the Starship Enterprise failed the Kobayashi Maru rescue scenario at Star Fleet Acadamy three times. It was an impossible rescue scenario which no cadet/crew could solve. In this way, very much like a Gordian Knot.

Kirk solved the problem, by surreptitiously reprogramming the simulation computers, much as Alexander solved the knot by cutting it.

Kirk cheated, he rewrote the program in order to win. Alexander, on the other hand, did not cheat. The legend said that “Whomever unties this knot will rule the world”… or something pretty close. Not exactly the high-tech age. So how would he have cheated if cheating were actually a possibility when try to untie a complex knot made of rope? The was no edict to literally pick the knot apart, it said to untie it. So, did he cheat by cutting it with his sword? Was that the same as rewriting the program (which would essentially be the same as untying the knot then retying it in a simpler configuration in order to then untie it again and say that he did it)? I think not… :p

That was not me, but I do remember the comment and found it distasteful at the time.
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Alexander and Kirk: Like I said some people, don’t understand metaphors. I don’t see how could conclude cutting the knot is not changing the rules which is the same as cheating. But, both do serve as examples of thinking outside the box, and one for which Kirk recieved recognition, and Alexander and the knot also serves that methaphoric purpose.

BUT, as you point out, Kirk FAILED three times before he decided to just cheat by rewriting the program (absolute malice of forethought to cheat).

Alexander did no such thing, must’ve been smarter than Kirk (whom I always thought of as a charlatan more than anything else, who got through life by the skin of his teeth so to speak). Alexander, once again, was not changing the rules, nor did he spend any time failing at his first attempt, without cheating. He didn’t change the rules, didn’t act outside the rules nor did he tie a different – simpler – knot to untie in front of others. Kirk cheated, Alexander was thinking outside the box.

Like Nicolo Machiavelli, Alexander has been slandered here in order to prove a point developed through pretzel logic, and I wonder how many sites you had to browse through to come up with that questionable justfication for your philosophical argument, which doesn’t make much sense. As for the reintroduction argument you pose, I can’t make any sense of what your saying… it’s just like your bluster about Ms. Stone and your disdain for her. You sound like you are making a favorable case for the reintroduction but your complaints show that your are using that as a smokescreen to qualify your complaints.

Nuff said on that discussion, the argument is settled and any more of your complaints about things that couldn’t be known back 17-25 years ago are really lost to your knowledge base so I think it’s time to hang it on the post or hang up and dial again when you have a better attitude.

Wow, You are very welcome! I’m really glad you are enjoying it soo much! I’m trying to remember when they hatched last year. The data on the page is a year old. I’m thinking it was the last week in March, first week in April. Once they hatch, it gets real interesting!

Harley, this is the best present! I love eagles, never got close enough to actually see them breathing, wow.

So on the difference in the beaks, since I got a good look at both during one of the morning exchanges, I think it’s the nostrils… the male seems to have a sort of blob-looking thing and the female has none. That’s the only thing I could see that was significant.

Rats, I have stuff to do today and I will have to turn off the computer… I could watch this 24/7. I want that camera person’s job! I’d move to Iowa for that.

I once lived in a cabin out in the Clearwater that was placed between two creeks that converged just below in the woods. I had a balcony twenty ft up and could see everything in the woods, the deer and moose that slept just yards from the door in the riparian shrubs, watch one have her fawn. I saw so much from that perch, I never wanted to go anywhere. Oh to live in the woods without having t go anywhere and deal with people… (Don’t hate people but I am frustrated with the majority and would rather be out with the animals. If one eats me, I hope it will provide them with nutrients they need, and that nobody else finds out so they won’t be killed for it.)

Seriously WM, I can’t imagine being even 2 miles away from your cows when they calving. And it sounds like some of these were heifers -first timers. Even older cows can have all kinds of problems giving birth. (The annual dead cow/calf pile on a neighbor’s ranch is proof enough of that)

By my modest estimate, he lost somewhere in the neighborhood of $3 grand – breed heifer, dead. One cow that won’t make it. One calf missing. Damn right, as Salle said, he should of hired someone to be around if his cows were that far away instead of relying on neighbors, who probably had their own livestock to worry about.

++Damn right, as Salle said, he should of hired someone to be around if his cows were that far away…++

Waddaya suppose that would have cost him, not just during calving but for 24 hour herd observation/protection through the the critical winter months and the start of summer, when hungry and curious wolves might slide in for a quick and easy slow elk (slow moving pregnant heifer or new born veal) meal or two?

What is that now, about 22 confirmed Imnaha pack livestock kills and another 10 or 11 suspected kills in 2 1/2 years? Forty grand in dead stock for a dozen wolves? The economics are becoming crystal clear for this particular pack. That is precisely why they need to go away entirely.

I think even Ralph, on an earlier post, suggested this might be the best thing for wolf recovery, in the longer term.

You don’t build collaboration or consensus, or even tolerance of wolvesand their advocates with litigation the likes of which are holding up the kill order on this pack.

In plain English; When the only set of values one can perceive are in monetary terms, and then cling to that with a death-grip like hold – which is the real hold up in the progress of this scenario, or at least your argument of the moment – then there is a guaranteed manifestation of the self-fulfilling-prophesy that this can never be resolved.

It is folks with such opinions who perpetuate the conflict, not the litigation. Let me explain the the rationale here; litigation is the tool/remedy that is provided in the Endangered Species Act of 1973 and subsequent amendments. (Rather than resorting to personal attacks and cronyism and exclusionary tactics.) That’s why it gets used. The fact that opponents of the presence of wolves keep making stuff up in order to obstruct the process (See 112th Congress of the United States) in order to circumvent the law so that they can go have their little shoot ’em up freeferall gangbang hatefest and not get busted or have someone tell them that they are probably wrong about the reality of the situation… is what is creating the need to seek legal remedy because… unlike the shoot ’em up gang, the wolf advocates ~ for the most part that I know ~ aren’t willing to break the laws in order to have their way like their opponents, rather they seek clarification of the law through the court system as directed in the Endangered Species Act of 1973 and subsequent amendents.

The wolves were put here through the events that take place when the democratic process is adhered to, fair and square; by the rules. If you can’t accept that then I’m sorry for you and your anger issues. (What was that you told me a while back??? Oh yeah, grow a pair.)

The wolf reintroduction was one of the most democratically and fairly conducted motions in a very long time in our history, like it or not. I don’t care what your sorry opinion is on that because, if you weren’t there or watching with an unjaded eye, you must have missed it… I, however, did not.

++The wolf reintroduction was one of the most democratically and fairly conducted motions in a very long time in our history, like it or not. I don’t care what your sorry opinion is on that because, if you weren’t there or watching…++

Let’s be clear here, I have never said I was against the NRM reintroduction (actually I was for it). I have, however, been critical of the inadequacies of the reintroduction plan as set forth in the deficient 1994 EIS, with its incomplete assessment of the breadth and depth of impacts, including institutional deficiencies, lack of discussion of genetic connectivity and mor clarity on numbers of wolves, including their management before and after delisting, as well as impacts to ungulate populations and the ESA mandated cooperation with states in managing their respective wildlife obligations.
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And, Salle, notwithstanding your assertions, the Gordian knot metaphor is often cited for the proposition that Alexander the Great, did indeed cheat when he cut the knot (allegedly to avoid embarrassment the even he could not decipher the knot). All you need do is Google the two search terms: Gordian knot + cheating.

In more modern days it would be a bit like attempting to solve the Rubic Cube (articulated 3D puzzle block with multi color movable squares, the objective of which is to get all one color on each of the six sides of the block). Alexander would just smash the block, and align the colors after doing so. No other puzzler would be able to attempt to solve because the puzzle was destroyed (same thing as cutting the knot, Salle, and yes he cheated). LOL.

Interesting that there is little if any mention of wolves in that article. Which begs the question – predation by predators (WS response/ livestock loss subsidies) has been an ongoing situation for decades but the whining didn’t start until a few protected wolves started showing up.

According to a APHIS 2008 report:

WS has over 10,000 agreements with private & public entities to assist w/ wildlife conflicts in Oregon.

Its the “pave paradise” mentality backing right up to or into, fragile parts of wilderness areas that need to be addressed or the conflict will continue.

I think if a cougar decides it wants something it usually picks something in a species and size that will guarantee it dies – pretty quickly, and mostly it is just one cougar and one kill (although Elk275 brought to our attention some cat decided to kill five or six llamas in a couple nights recently).

Mark Gamblin,
I just saw pictures of a wolf that had been collared between Bogus Basin and Harris Creek Summit on February the 12th that weighed 165lbs.
My question is, is the database on vital statistics that is kept on collaring operations available to the public?

Here is an interesting bit of Wyoming Wolf news from the hinterlands. Wildlife Services is out trapping and collaring as many ” Judas” wolves for Fish & Wildlife Service as they can at the moment , in the region around Cody WY. Not only that , they are driving ATV’s off road where the public is forbidden to do so , and have Forest Service permission to do this. ( Dunno about BLM but I presume same )

This is from an eyewitness report, a retired ecologist friend of mine who is out tromping all the time , following wolves . An unimpeachable source .He has encountered Wildlife Service’s trappers on a few occasions recently.

The bit about the ATV’s really bothers me…. I hate those things when they go off road, and it’s now ” Mud Season ” in addition to Elk Antler Scabbing season.

They do exactly the same thing around the western border of the park when the MTDOL are chasing bison around in order to haze them. This government harassment of wildlife has to end, yesterday. This crap is so 19th century… no consideration of what is needed in the 21st century.

Somehow, the image of him checking himself out in the mirror while making this statement comes to mind. Especially when you consider his justification for making this statement… Although, it’s obvious that what he really meant was that Obama is in the stupid category.

This guy, and all his cronies, are a massive waste of good air that could be put to better use by endangered species.

They have a real nice close up of her now. I think it’s her. I read how you can tell the difference by the beak but I’m still not so good at that part. I think they guys who man the camera during the day have too much fun. Sometimes they get real close, sometimes they pan the country side. Yeah, weather here today kinda sucks too, rainy, wet and grey.

You have shown me my new addiction! And the songbirds, I had forgotten how that sounds…

I do think that is the female. they just changed places about half an hour ago. The mate is in the branches about thirty feet away. They’re both trying to dry off after that all night soaker they had there. I watched during the worst of it.

The weather looks about the same as it does here, near the divide.

I used to live out in that neck of the woods and drove my semi around there too. Rarely ever saw many eagles back then (mid 70′ – mid 80’s). Had to go to NE to see them then.

Not too surprised . . . . . I frequently get strong feeling they are quite intelligent. One of the more interesting demonstrations was how one went about trying to topple a remote 12’x 14′ wall tent frame plus porch that we had recently built up on posts out of reach of bears (with a removable staircase) and only use 10 days a year, via helicopter access. We built it very strong with bolted cross-bracing and metal strapping heavily nailed up both sides of the 6 posts and onto the beams, knowing it would be tested by bears that would detect remaining cooking odors and be curious about what was up there. A bear systematically went about breaking out key cross-bracing before shoving the posts from under the beams, managing to separate one post from the joist despite the strapping and had made progress on the two other posts (which were joined by plywood sheeting, all on one side. The clear strategy by which the bear went about efficiently concentrating its effort suggested some comprehension of the most effective sequence to weaken and topple the structure. Basically, it was attempted the same way I would expect a human to try to bring it down, by removing bracing and then concentrating on weak points on one side. Combined with an ability to apply severe brute force, it nearly brought the whole thing down and probably would have, given another half hour, despite all the fasteners and reinforcing. I was impressed, although I have to admit I would have been more so if it had figured out how to set up the staircase . . . .

That’s an interesting story. I know bears are smart, your tale is pretty good indication of that. I think many folks are still of a mindset that wild animals are just “dumb”.
Most animal exhibit some lever of sentience, too bad people can’t show signs of intellect most of the time.

I’m distracted by that live stream of the eagles’ nest, it’s getting drenched in a pretty heavy rain, the worst of the storm is passing over right about now, she’s wet but seems to be well sheltered from most of the wind and water.

The much ballyhooed Bitterroot Elk Study is surprising scientists with its preliminary results on migration ( or lack of it ) and mortality. It’s also going to disappoint the rabid wolf haters by showing wolves are 3rd or 4th down the list of mortality causes , after Cougar, Black Bear, and Mr. Natural…

Not surprising that the wolf returned to scavenge. Dogs chew on bones despite little nutrition. The one time I walked head onto a wolf (20 feet), he was scavenging and elk that must have died or killed 2 weeks previously. There was so little left.

Ever consider the fact that but for the elk being drugged and artificially and temporarily imobilized (in both cases) they would not have been easy prey for the cougar. That, in itself, is study bias, and the data would be thrown out. And, of course, the crew would have the additional cost/flight time/risk to retrieve the collar and sedate another elk to replace it.

So you think “a just darted elk” is fair game? Might even have a sleepy cat

And, my reading comprehension is just fine.

“We were waiting for the shuttle when we heard the pilot say over the radio, ‘You guys aren’t going to believe this, but we just had a mountain lion attack one of your drugged elk,’” Lehman said. “We told them we could believe it, because last year we had a lion eat one of our drugged elk.”

well see here is the problem with not only the comprehension but also apperantly relying on a newspaper article as difinitive source material. From the story: “During the helicopter work last year, one of the cow elk hit with a dart was almost immediately attacked and killed by a mountain lion.” and then later, ‘”Last year, that elk had been under the drug for a while. It was almost asleep,” Lehman said”‘.

So which is it?

Sounds like there is more to the story,hence the reading for comprehension.
I know, the part about the “vaginal implants” got you all discombobulated.

This is a bit of a no-brainer – they had to chase off the lion for two reasons. First they made the elk vulnerable to attack and disabled its ability to cope with predators, and second some of the drugs we use to immobilize elk are quite capable of killing a mountain lion within hours after consuming (even small bits of) the elk. Both scenarios are unacceptable. Like or dislike the research techniques and tools – no investigator wants to kill either elk or lion.

well first of all TC, as I said there is apparently more to the story, and relying on a newspaper article as a definitive source is, at best ….questionable…,

Some questions occurred to me:
One that strikes me is that the cougar had no fear of the helicopter at first; why did the cougar not spook when the copter first appeared? Just staring at it before re-acquiring the elk. (according to the story),
Does that not strike you as curious?… as in maybe starving…. or with cubs to feed? pregnant?

How long had the cougar been stalking that particular elk before the copter appeared and disrupted [THAT] natural dynamic?

Had the cougar eaten in the last week..two…longer?…or does it not have an equal chance/opportunity at survival as the elk?

As far as the tranq affecting the cougar…horseshit.

the cougar would not {{{{immediately}}}} consume the entire elk, in fact it would take several days, even with cubs, and the drug starts to break down from the moment it is injected like ALL drugs do.

Second and maybe more important is that this agency knew (or are stupid) that cougar were present (duh) and did not account for that in that they should have made provisions in their SOP as in not darting an elk and the just fly off (how long, far/) and have the elk fend for itself? Broken leg or other injury comes to mind as possibilities, aside from the cougar

Wow, Jeff, hostile AND ignorant – it’s a pretty combination. Yes, the mountain lion deserves the same chance to live and die as the elk, but not with an assist from the capture team. I know a bit more than the newspaper article states because I had conversations with the pilot about some other business. Second – depending on the drugs used, and here I do not have insider knowledge – the mountain lion could be dead inside of a couple of hours, and this has unfortunately been demonstrated more than once. Both with carfentanil and with sufentanil. Both without consuming anything NEAR an entire carcass. Many drugs including opiods, dissociatives, and others have tissue residue half-lives far exceeding a couple of hours. So please, spare me your armchair wisdom. Have the good grace to remain quiet when you’re out of your league.

there was apparently no concern whatsoever about if the mountain lion would be at risk.
In fact after checking the elk, the highly professional team just up and left the lion to its meal.
Or possibly there was no concern as to the health of the mountain lion due to the sedative?

And again why would this team of caring professionals go out and drug elk and then just fly away knowing that it left the elk vulnerable to a known population of cougars or the cougar at risk to the sedated elk instead of developing a protocol to address those possibilities.

Sounds like a well thought out plan by a team of highly trained professionals to me and of course they can always depend on apologists such as you too go to bat for them.

USFWS apparently took the expedient way out ( in other words, avoided a lawsuit they would likely lose ) by allowing the Arapaho tribe in Wyoming to harvest two Bald Eagles for religious purposes. previously they OK’d only the use of eagle feathers and claws salvaged from carcasses, but this time the tribe gets to take the eagles alive.

How can a conservation organization or anyone, for that matter, be sued for something they haven’t done? Innocent until proven guilty. People are not jailed or tried, in this country, until they have actually done something. Not yet, anyway. Or am I missing something here?

“A SLAPP is a lawsuit or a threat of lawsuit to intimidate and silence criticism by overwhelming the critic with legal work and fees until the criticism is given up. Generally a SLAPP refers to a lawsuit filed in response to a person speaking out. There have been many SLAPP suits, unfortunately,”

People are jailed all the time in this country with little or no evidence of a crime being committed, in this country, the justice system treats you are if you are guilty before the trial. Innocent until proven guilty has become the exception now a days!

Wow, along the Calumet of all places. Last time I saw that area, it wasn’t pretty nor did it seem like it would support much other than muskrats and some deranged deer and raccoons. There must be fish there or in a near-by stream… which I can hardly imagine. Balds normally live near water because they mainly eat fish, from what I have observed over a few decades. Yes, they are seen sharing in wolf kills and scavenging but I think the preferred diet is mostly fish, Goldens will live in large open spaces or quite near them, it seems and they will go after small mammals in lieu of proximity to fish.

I’m stating to think that this is becoming something more that a titillation for tech heads…

At the web site link below, there are several panels to look at in a center column, watch the 2min video at the top, but do scroll down and look at the other images… they explain a lot. There’s even a little dry humor techie joke about 8 panels down. There seems to be a big and growing hole in the surface of the sun and it’s growing and it’s lining up to spew a lot of stuff directly at us and coming to alignment… now. (I get the feeling that this isn’t good.)

Mostly tribal members, whoever and wherever they are, just kill the eagles without a permit and sell talons, feathers and the like, sometimes in person or on the internet. Sometimes they get caught, but alot of times do not.

With 1.2 million acres to work with, I’m sure most don’t get caught for this type of stuff. I never realized quite how large that reservation was until I really looked it over on a map.

Made the drive from Toppenish down through the reservation to Goldendale a couple of weeks ago and was amazed at the number of horses I saw grazing slopeside near the highway. Between the wild horses and the grazing rights they lease out, that must put a lot of pressure on the amount of forage available to deer and elk.

As you probably know the reservation extends to the full east side of Mt. Adams. The feral horse population is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12,000 head on the rez. The tribe would like fewer of them for the reasons you suggest. However, because of the wild horse law the animal rights folks were able to get thru a few years back there are no slaughter facilities on or off reservation, and transportation costs are high to send them to Canada or MX for less humane processing. And, there is little off rez market for horse flesh for human consumption (dog food yes?) in the US. So, the population continues to grow, except for those maybe taken by tribal members to eat or they get pissed off and shoot a few, or as you saw in the eagle feather article, shot and used for eagle bait.

And, unless wolves, when they show up, learn to kill and eat horses, they will also be a constraint on elk and deer populations (deer or course don’t graze so they really don’t compete much with the cattle and horses). That is why I have said in the past don’t be too surprised if wolves are not greeted favorably on the Yakama rez if they start to work on the elk herds, or tribal member cattle. And if we think there is resistance now to good animal husbandry, cleaning up the bone yards, stringing fladry and hiring range riders or buying guard dogs, just try to tell a Yakama that is what he/she should do). That will be an interesting, but short, conversation.

While I was in Goldendale, I had a whiskey-soaked conversation with a long-time rancher who pays for grazing rights up in the Simcoes on the reservation during the summer. I was told that a few years ago the tribal council came within one vote of cutting off their grazing program. He didn’t have a definite answer for why they were considering such a move.

As far as wolves, I think I have a pretty good idea how a lot of residents in Klickitat County feel about them.

You are more up to date than I on where the slaughter house issue stands. I gather things have changed some in the last four months or so. If there ever is a facility built, the Yakama area would be a likely candidate. Market prices are still depressed and likely will be for awhile. In fact, it would be a great business for them, even better if they could finance with casino revenues and go in with a couple other tribes with feral horse problems, and a simulataneous need for cattle processing. USDA inspections could be interesting if anything like other incursions on tribal sovereignty requiring a state or fed agency to come into Indian country. They want to be notified in advance, like that has worked for enforcement issues in the past, like the cigarette tax stuff.

As for the grazing lease renewal uncertainty, the Yakama tribal decision-making process is as fickle as one would ever find any government or group. Reasons, who needs reasons? Kind of like their rather crude tribal court system which is under consideration to get new powers under legislation working its way through Olmypia (don’t know but it might have passed in the last couple weeks). Get a speeding ticket while driving to Goldendale, and you might wind up in tribal court in Toppenish (that would be a hoot).
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Carter Neimeyer will be at Central WA U in Ellensburg tonight for a book signing. That will no doubt be an interesting forum, but one he is used to.

Talked to the guy who organized the Ellensburg speaking engagement for Carter…….I guess it went off without a hitch. Nobody started yelling or trying to stir things up. I was suprised to hear that, actually.

Carter has walked the walk, knows the language of the farm and ranch, and was one of a dying breed of a professional public servant. He really believed in going by the rules whether he liked them or not.

He’s been called a wolf murderer and tree hugin wolf lover, almost always by who have never meet him.

I’m glad he is speaking out. Not many have his credibility. Of course, he has lost some because many of his old professional colleagues who lack his sense of ethics, or who are too afraid to exercise them, are not very friendly with him any more.

Again we have proof of wolves in the form of a dead wolf. Again we have a government that does not recognize the presence of wolves. Again we have a government telling its people that there are no wolves so any large canid you shoot is a coyote. WTF??? Any moron could see that this animal is a wolf!!! Wolves have been extinct in Newfoundland for some 100 years. Coyotes showed up in Newfoundland within the last two decades or so. To think that wolves could/would not show up would be nonsense. Hopefully there are more. Newfoundland’s moose population (moose are not native to Newfoundland) is bursting at the seams in part due to a lack of natural predators. The killing of this animal is a disgrace.

Not really wildlife news, but important nonetheless, for it is important to know why our economy and government is so filled with greed and avorice. Goldman Sachs, the overly influential investment banking firm, advisor to governements and captains of industry, through the eyes of one of its own, who has simply had enough. He cuts lose on the lack of ethics and integrity of the firm as he quits:

And, if you are a little shy on how deeply Goldman Sachs is tied to our government, since nearly every Secretary of the Treasury as done time at Goldman, the sub-prime mortgage debacle and the bailout of insurer, AIG, here is an excellent background piece from Rolling Stone:

Thanks for those links/story/ recommendations. No sooner had I checked this out than I saw a piece on today’s Today show about the very story.

Unfortunately, I hate reading this kind of crap,and have to force myself to do so, because of the importance of all “connectivity” (industrial/natural economy)in its essence to everything that happens ecologically on the planet.

To me, that is the true trickle down theory championed by Republicans,in that contrary to their claims, it reflects more on the degradation of our environment, rather than an improvement of industry and balanced conservation(both for people and nature) for anyone/anything other than the upper income levels for the elite.

Savebears you are wrong, all game killed in Africa is eaten, there might be a local exception for a species that the locals will not eat. It takes about 20 villagers to butcher an elephant. Cape buffalo are winched into the bed of the truck and taken to camp, one of camps delicacies is buffalo tail soup. Buffalo is turned into biltong and sold. Kudu is excellent eating.

What I do not like is the killing of game animals for bait, not that I am against baiting of cats, there are villages and people who need that meat.

That is not the core of the problem and sarcasm does not solve it. It would be a waste to let this meat rot. But, you are anyway not allowed to bring it back to the US nor would this be practicable. So it is good that the locals make use of what you leave behind! But, why not finally give the locals some hunting rights to care for their own instead of keeping them dependent on the gracious “gifts” and “donations” of the wealthy foreign hunters or to force them into poaching? You very well know that in too many African States the local tribes are not allowed to hunt or even to penetrate “private land”, the vast game farms!
Somebody once said: Allowing rich white men to shoot animals for
fun, while poor blacks are not allowed to kill an animal out of need, is a blatant injustice.

State Representative Chris Danou (D-Trempealeau) voted for the bill, but raised concerns about the long term strength of the wolf population. Danou says he’s hopeful the state can manage the population in a “sustainable, responsible way.”

Then, Representative Danou, why in the world did you vote yes. I think the Latin term for this rings well “idiota”!

This guy speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He is the same one who said during the Assembly Committee hearing that he hopes to pull a wolf tag so that he can take his son wolf hunting. This sets a dangerous precedent and I would not be surprised to see other wolf hating states adopt these measures.

However, state Representative Janet Bewley (D-Ashland) warns the bill is setting the state up for a blood bath by allowing dogs to be used to track wolves. She also questioned the wisdom of reimbursing hunters if their tracking animals are killed, arguing that is likely to happen very often when the two animals are forced against each other in the wild.

Another great Sisyphean moment created by “law” and special interests.

There is a group that is ran by a former DNR Secretary named George Meyer called the Wisconsin Wildlife Federation. This group and the groups under them (Wisconsin Bear Hunters Association, etc.)are responsible for this bill and all of the other nefarious anti-wildlife agendas that have been put forth by Wisconsin. Meyer and his ilk successfully pushed this wolf kill bill, expanding bear hounder “training” seasons, and gave control of the Natural Resources Board to hunting, trapping, and agricultural interests.

Because of their name, “Wisconsin Wildlife Federation,” many people think that they are looking out for wildlife. The exact opposite is true as their only goal is to expand hunter and trapper opportunity onto all lands, and bully their way onto private land. They are pushing a bill that would penalize land owners who do not allow hunting and trapping on their land by requiring them to pay $417 per 50 acre parcel compared to $83 if hunting and trapping is allowed. Meyer is quoted as saying at a “Conservation Congress” meeting in 2000 “”By carrot or stick, hunters and trappers will gain access to public lands and private lands.”

So it is not just the western states that have to deal with this type of bullying when it comes to wildlife issues.

In a nutshell, Long writes that Don Peay’s Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife have gone back on Teddy Roosevelt’s notions of universal wildlife conservation and treating wildlife as a public resource, rather than huntable game for the rich elites and their outfitters.

Haven’t received my latest issue of HCN, but thanks for that link/story. A very good one. Also, more evidence of why language can be so convoluted by policitians and some citizen groups to support (twisted and mis-represent facts) a devious agenda.

Finally, closure on the last of the Earth Liberation Front/Animal Liberation Front types that firebombed the U of WA horticulture building in 2001, destroying the work of dozens of professors and graduate students,and causing millions of dollars of damage to taxpayer buildings/projects. Seven years in federal pen and $ 6 million in restitution is not enough for this little creep. Too bad they couldn’t have just left this fugitive from justice in the Chinese prison where he was doing time for his other stupid acts. He certainly deserved it.

Bloody battle for Cameroon elephants continueshttp://wildlifenews.co.uk/2012/bloody-battle-for-cameroon-elephants-continues/
After 200 hundred elephants were slaughtered by poachers in the first few weeks of 2012 the government sent the army to tackle the issue. Sadly the military has failed and number of elephants killed has now more than doubled to over 400 since the start of the year.

Defenders with gray wolves on the Today Show just now. I was disappointed they did not take the opportunity to discuss the “management” going on in the Northern Rockies; primarily just talking about Canada. “These animals are extremely important, especially in Canada” the spokesman said. What a cop out, and missed opportunity.

If you are speaking about DOW, yes they missed an opportunity. But the real opportunity they missed was 2009 and 2010 to work with the NRM states in terms of wolf management. As instrumental as they were for the reintroduction, I feel they were equally responsible for the depth and breadth of the seasons just concluding. They could have been a power broker and just faded away.

So wolves have been seen in a area that is a subdivision, which is near elk, this has been going on since Dec here in Jackson with no problems, wolves just passing through the yards, people aware and some not happy . So what happens ? Dog is attacked ! But no info from Game and Fish, did dog attack first, if wolves are in your area snd you are aware of this, why is your dog out in the back yard ?? I blame the owners of the dog and these wolves were already targeted for death for hunting . It is not right, when are we gonna learn that if you want wildlife in your yard, that includes all of wildlife, if you don’t want this, move near a zoo.

Thank you for that link/story. I actually worked on the WW back in the early 70;s, and road closure was just as controversial then, than apparently it is again today. Even Dick Cockle wrote stories back then, including an interview with me. Glad to see he is still in tune with the area.

“The Forest Service says many Wallowa-Whitman roads are of relatively recent vintage, built in the 1970s, ’80s and ’90s to salvage trees killed by insects. “Many of those have been closed before this, but were being used, anyway,” Schwalbach said.”

Unfortunately, roads have huge impacts to wildlife, not only in terms of lost habitat, but also as to its “habitat effectiveness” – an index we used back then to calculate costs to “actual use” by fish and wildlife.

Closing roads was a tool to help mitigate for loss of integrity to utilization by wildlife that other forest uses would have to them.

What is freightening to me, is that with the advent of new machines upon the landscape in a rather epidemic assault, creates more shouting for additional access to accommodate this rising tide of mechanized use groups.

Thus, what little roadless areas that remain, become more important, not less. Just because there is more interest for more motorized access is not always best in line for habitat effectivenees for accommodating the views and wildlife they seek. There is also just as much interest for wilderness, peace and quiet. Battle of the user groups, yes. But often at the expense of the fish and wildlife they are all fighting over. As also, based on evidence of bickering that sometimes takes place on this blog site.

I don’t think a lot of folks realize how extensive some of the road networks are in some of these areas. Every time I fly through western portions of the US and the view is unobstructed by clouds, I can spot one series of roads after another in the mountains. Thats just what can be seen from 35,000 feet. Here in Washington State, I’ve read that for every mile of legal ATV trail, there are several miles of illegal trail in use.

It’s safe to say that there would be no shortage of ATV terrain open to recreationists, even if hundreds of thousands of miles of road were eventually shut off across the west.

After reading many of the replies to the article on the WWNF, it strenghtens my opinion that building more roads in any roadless area is a mistake. Once the roads are there it is very difficult to close them.

As you can see, all it takes is one or two special interest groups to play the government intrusion card, and scores of conservative mouth-pieces and local legislators answer the call. At that point, it doesn’t even matter anymore what the merits of the decision were.

++The avg. annual population growth for wolves over the entire reintroduction period is around 20% (2009 Final Rule).++

I suppose since the ID Commissioner was speaking to his home state the comment might have been for that area. And there is also the possibility he was referring to a gross, not net increases (where problem wolves or others that do not die natural deaths are subtracted). And, does the rate of increase include the interim period after the birthing season where the new crop of pups does not meet recruitment age. Net or gross increase?

I am inclined to believe he was speaking of a gross population increase, and probably for ID, which would be the commissioner’s area of regulatory concern. So, was he wrong in the end?

“…these wolves are super-breeders, each pack will have as many as three females having pups and they do this three or for times a year each.”

Must be where he came up with this. Such statements are made to invoke this line of nonsense. Like mr. santimonious believes, if you spew outrageous lies often enough, presto, they magically become the truth.

“…if you spew outrageous lies often enough, presto, they magically become the truth.”

This is actually one of the political tactics taught in Mein Kampf. I can’t say that the GOP learned their business by reading that source; but, they sure waddle like ducks, quack like ducks, and fly north and south with the seasons.

I considered this as well. He may have been factually correct, if he was discussing gross population increases; but if so the statement is [purposefully?] misleading. Thus, as I said, he should’ve chosen his words more carefully.

And I hasten to add, that those numbers include the early years of the reintroduction, when sometimes populations doubled under total protection (because wolves were moved instead of killed in response to depredations). Still think it was a fair statement, WM?

Note: What is missing in the above equation is the deduction for control actions and unverified (or uncounted/unseen – and they actually did counts up until the last couple years).

Control actions are a HUGE correction factor each year, reducing the rate of growth. There are also the illegal take, other human caused, and unknown deaths. where the wolf goes missing with no explanation. Then there is the undercounting problem, which Dr. Mech and others have said this could count for as many as 20% of net popuation as the range expands, collars are fewer and actual count technique is not as accurate.

Here is an example, using just one pack to demonstrate the GROSS population rate for that pack, which may not be representative of the NET rate of growth for the entire state of ID. It does not have to be for the Commissioner’s statement to arguably be correct.

Simple example: Pack of 6 wolves. Breeding pair has 4 pups (maybe 1 pup dies of natural causes, and no other wolf dies of natural causes). Do not deduct for any wolves killed by humans. Pack of 6 would then be 9. Gross growth rate is 50% increase.

If WS or a hunter kills 1. Net growth rate for the year would be 25%. If one more wolf dies of natural causes (Total of 3 dead: 1 pup, 1 control kill, 1 natural mortality, say an old one), net growth (4 pups – 3 dead wolves from pack), which makes the total pack size 7 wolves,. or an increase of 1 = 16.6% increase (7/6).

You get the idea. To my knowledge the state summaries show the “Net” increase, which account for births and natural deaths AND control/hunter/unexplained deaths, of all packs and dispersers, which may have histories different than the example, including whole packs wiped out or reduced by half. Their lack of contribution are wiped out by that portion of the population that has phenomenal growth increase as JB suggests, above. That is how the growth rate is calculated and shown in the reports, a NET rate for the entire counted population. It is considerably lower than the GROSS increase as explained above.

++ Still think it was a fair statement, WM?++

I think it was a bit misleading, but not factually incorrect. If the statement was made for the purpose of justifying and carrying out a policy of the body he represents, maybe it was fair to underscore the rationale, and maybe he did chose his words carefully for that context. Of course, we don’t know what he actually said, only what the reporter stated in the article (and we do know it is possible to get it wrong, or not report a complete statement).

I am also intrigued by the statement of the State of MT (in a news piece), which says even after its hunt/control actions in 2011, the MT wolf population grew by 15 percent (net). So, what kind of a gross population increase would they have had to support that statement, if true?

So what is a “natural death”? If a wolf dies from parvo virus, is that natural? If it dies because its food resources were depleted by human hunters, is that natural?
Why would we only count “natural deaths” when we know that the primary source of mortality for wolves is and always will be human beings–whether they are hunted or not? The assumption that you are making by including only “natural” deaths (whatever that is) is that all wolf mortality is additive–i.e., that wolves killed by people would not have died otherwise. A very unrealistic assumption.

Regardless, since the new report and data are out, I went back and calculated gross population growth for wolves throughout the entire period 1980-2011, the reintroduction period, and in recent years. Here are the results:

Using the annual growth rate throughout the wolf recovery period is misleading because is suggests (to the uninformed) that wolf populations will continue to grow at this rate. This assumption, as the numbers show, is faulty because wolves have already occupied the best habitat.

—
Montana’s minimum wolf population did grow 15% (566 to 653) with their modest harvest. Meanwhile Wyoming’s population is down 4% (343 to 328) with no harvest, and Idaho’s population is down 4% (777 to 746) with heavier harvest.

So, with this gross statistic, is it unreasonable (fair/factually incorrect) for the commissioner to round up and use 40%, or should he have rounded down and use 35%? With either measure, it shows the raw reproduction potential at various stages of the reintroduction/repopulation with sufficient territory, prey and without human intervention to “manage” the population. While it seems pretty clear the rate of gross/net increase has changed, it once was higher, much higher.
_______________

++The assumption that you are making by including only “natural” deaths (whatever that is) is that all wolf mortality is additive–i.e., that wolves killed by people would not have died otherwise. A very unrealistic assumption.++

This was not considered for the purpose of a simple example. I understand your point and agree. As, for what constitutes natural death, I suspect few if any wolves in the NRM die of hunger. Parvo (or even mange), good question, relative to how it would fit in a gross calculations. If attributed as human caused (a deduction to produce net), it would make the gross rate of reproduction calculation even higher, wouldn’t it?

One last aspect, we have not even addressed is, in/out-migration as a source of the net numbers. So, ID loses 6-12 or so wolves a year recently to OR (Imnaha, lone dispersers, etc.). They don’t go into the count as part of the net ID increase. They are still out there contributing to the total NRM numbers, but not ID’s state count (and of course one Imnaha member came back and was shot by a hunter, which will likely be counted against the net number in 2012, in-migration gain ofset by its death loss = 0).

“So, with this gross statistic, is it unreasonable (fair/factually incorrect) for the commissioner to round up and use 40%…”

Yes, it is unreasonable because it fails to take into account the fact that population growth was (is) higher when wolves’ historic range was unoccupied. His comments suggest that, in an average year, the wolf population grows by 40%; however, he fails to mention that such growth is conditional upon wolves having unoccupied habitat to expand into. They don’t–at least, not the same quality of habitat they had before–thus, the condition needed for such growth is not met.

Second, since he is the commissioner for the state of Idaho, and there were no wolves in Idaho until the reintroduction, the appropriate number would include wolves’ growth from 1997 forward. Here the average rate of population growth is 18.3% (though this is still somewhat misleading for the reason I just mentioned).

“If attributed as human caused (a deduction to produce net), it would make the gross rate of reproduction calculation even higher, wouldn’t it?”

I think you actually missed my point, WM. Ignoring human-caused mortality as “unnatural” is unrealistic because sans human-caused mortality some (many?) of these animals would still die. Moreover, humans are not going away, and we aren’t going to stop killing wolves, so what would be the point in estimating “gross” reproduction outside of understanding wolves basic reproductive capacity? And if that is your purpose, why wouldn’t you just measure pup production?

The simple fact of the matter is the statistic he uses is grossly misleading, especially given the audience.

—
FYI: The out migration–at least into adjacent states–actually are included in the numbers. At least in the calculations I made. In migration is a good point, but doesn’t help you make your case.

I don’t see what this has to do with collaboration? From my perspective, this is clear evidence that the wing nuts in the hunting community–like the wing nuts in the Republican party–are wielding the power. Ultimately, this sort of thing makes hunters look bad, and jeopardizes the long-standing support hunters have enjoyed nationally. Moreover, it alienates non-hunting conservation groups that should be seen as partners and makes any future partnerships less likely.

I wish a reporter was able to follow the money trail for David Allen, and how it was used to turn RMEF from a respectable conservation organization promoting protection of elk as part of the community of animals to a narrow anti-predator organization focused on elk only and then only as a target for hunters.

Guess that means more sponsored predator derbies. And, the folks at the Cabela’s store in Lehi(south of Salt Lake) will be happy as these cash flush coyoters come in to spend more $$$ on those optics and rifles that reach out and touch at 1,000 yards….” well, ya know, I thought that was a coyote, but dang, it does look a little bigger now that we are standing next to it..and look at the size of those paws.”

“Nearly 200 animals fill Wyoming’s Species of Greatest Conservation Need list, created as a guideline for state wildlife officials to know what species need more attention and which ones need more study.”

“You can’t pull on one thing in nature without pulling on 1,700 things,” said Luke Schultz, a nongame fisheries biologist with the Wyoming Game and Fish Department. “All the species we have are like rivets holding a plane together. You can lose some, but if you lose too many, eventually the plane will fall down.”

“Everyone knows the big ones: grizzly bears, wolves, bald eagles – ”
Wait a minute. Are they saying that wolves are on Wyoming’s “List of Greatest Conservation Needs?”
Shoot on sight is on odd way to treat a species of greatest conservation needs, isn’t it?

If they only have 500-600 wolves and plan to raise the “bag” limit, and continue the no-quota kill fest, I wonder how “robust” and “sustainable” the population will continue to be. So much for that “magic number” significantly above 150 as we have been told so many times. If they kill off another 400 plus wolves this next year it would seem that the “significantly above 150″ number would be 175-180? What then? Are they going to continue this war on wolves to eradication, and count on the feds being too spineless to step in?

Of course they are. History is simply repeating itself, and Idaho is leading the pack.

They will push it right down to the wire, which of course will lead to lawsuits and court battles over accurate population estimates, which will of course lead to the re-listing of the wolf.

Been there, done that, signed for receipt. Will happen again.

It’s not about science or fairly managing wildlife populations. It’s about angry dudes with little control in their lives desperately seeking control in other areas, and the wolf is the prom queen at this point in time – that thing they could never get. Oh, but now they can, and they’ll “get it” until it’s gone.

Again on the NM coyote mass killing contest:
“……. Robert Espinoza, a game commissioner from Farmington and a former executive director of the Sportsmen of Fish and Wildlife, said that hunting predators is a fast-growing hobby across the country”
After all, what´s the problem? They killed just 16 coyotes! Utah plans to kill 20000 and nobody cares! Ah, yes, this fast growing hobby needs to be honored somwhow…..http://gantdaily.com/2012/03/27/more-than-a-dozen-killed-in-divisive-new-mexico-coyote-hunt/

Sure took the Statesman long enough to print that story… the study was released last month. But then, ID seems to be a “guns first” groupthink place. I’m almost surprised they even gave it any attention and I’m pretty sure that some authoritative mouthpiece will be passing it off as one of those “leftist conspiracy theories” anytime now.

“The state of Utah is willing to stand up and say to the federal government, we’re willing to take responsibility for the state of Utah,” he said. “The West is ready. It needs it. It’s now time to change the way we’ve done things traditionally … because the way we’ve done things traditionally flat-out doesn’t work.” (emphasis added)

Indeed, their “traditional” manner of functioning has been a environmental disaster. They call for change in this traditional set of actions but in actuality, they are calling for more of the same on steroids-the only real change they know of is to increase the tradition set of actions and their intensity.

I can smell the stench of ALEC and the privatization kings… coming to your state to take over all that belongs in the realm of the public trust so they can charge everyone $$ for water and air and access to what are currently known as public lands… And we can see how well the states manage things that belong to the public…

I just caught a real quick glimpse of a tiny hole in one of the eggs before momma sat down again. I think they hatched over several days last year. Ha! I find myself chuckling at Myself for the reactions but it’s just so stinkin cool to watch!

It is amazing. I didn’t see any cracks yet, she got up a couple times in the past hour or so and they just had some dirty stuff on them. The operator zoomed in really close and they didn’t seem to be opening yet. There was a Ladderback Woodpecker (I think) near the nest a while ago and operator tracked it for a time. That was pretty cool. Wish I had that job, I’d work close to 24/7 just because it’s so interesting.

I have just had a good look at the Decorah nest and the one is all the way out, took a while, I think because of the strong winds, the parents have been trying to keep them covered. A second one is starting to break out now. They have a partially eaten fish they’re working on. I had to go out and get some stuff done so I have not been watching since about noon or so. This might keep me up late!

Thanks again for turning us on to that! I’ve never seen eagles in such an intimate setting before. Sometimes I feel a little guilty for being a voyeur.

A friend just sent me this link. We do not hear so much about how wolves are viewed in other countries (I posted an article where an Eastern European country was going to offer bounties to kill about 200 of its 600 wolves that were wandering into town and getting into trouble, during this long winter over there.

Here is the latest from southeastern France (Provence-Alpes-Côte d’Azur), an area that touches the Riviera and the Alps. Sheep herders are pissed at the presence and effects of an increasing wolf population. They allege wolves killed 300 sheep/goats, and maybe a couple horses, so 100 irate shepherds drove their sheep into town in protest.

I should’ve added, what makes the situation in the West unique, isn’t the level of antipathy, it is the extent that interest groups have influence over the legislature, executive, and wildlife commission.

It seems clear the whiners are the producers in this SE France article. The Eastern European country (the name of which escapes me) was more focused on the fact that wolves were actually coming into towns and villages, getting into garbage and killing pets (dogs, horses, goats). The national government implemented a bounty system of something like $100 per wolf killed to remove up to two hundred wolves. The article did not indentify who made the decision for the national government (maybe a legislative budget decision).

Several months ago I came across another article from Germany which was both producers and hunters who were complaining about impacts. The producers were griping about having to spend more money for proactive non-lethal measures to keep wolves away or even out of fields, expensive fencing and the like. So, the interest groups are roughly the same as here. But you are probably right about access to decision-makers in the West. More hunters and more producers (and large landowners) in the mix.

The former communist block countries provide an interesting contrast to our NA model and wildlife conservation in western Europe. Unlike NA–and especially western Europe–many formerly communist countries have robust populations of large carnivores (esp. wolves and bears). Though numbers are hard to come by, it is clear that they did a much better job preserving these species. Perhaps there is something to be learned?

– – –

The stakeholders are roughly the same everywhere. Attitudinal surveys from Scandinavia, for example, show similar results as those in the US. That is, urban residents, women, and non-hunters are more positive that rural residents, men, hunters and ranchers. Again, I think the difference is their level of influence over govt. These groups have an extremely disproportionate influence in the NRMs.

Maybe white folks have their own version of what those cultures were about and never really understood what they were seeing and hearing because they already had their own biased vision of what was going on instead of watching and listening with a relatively unbiased view. It’s still a big problem today.

You know, I feel that whatever you want to think about that is whatever you’re going to think about that. A big issue that I see is that the nonidigenous folks of the continent have tried to force their value and belief systems on the indigenous folks in every way possible and still there are some who try to keep the old values, which were far more humane and considerate than anything that has been forced upon them over the past several centuries.

And Mr Indian Authority, WM, has a jaded view of these people and wastes no time trying to discredit anything about them; as seen in his consistently negative comments as though he’s some kind of anti-native American crusader…

I post articles for the sake of offering information, if you have a negative comment about Indians, I really don’t care to hear or see it. You will believe whatever you want and that’s not my problem… it belongs entirely to you.

Colville Tribe [northwest of Spokane] to manage wolves. Integral to the effort they are doing a survey to determine what members want – Are wolves spiritually important to members/tribe? Will they interfere with subsistence hunting?

++ “That means the Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation – a sovereign nation – will develop its own plan for managing them, [tribal wildlife director]Peone said.
“We’re going to be managing them. And when I say manage, I mean we’re going to be removing some,” he said.++

A good read, you both might enjoy, if you haven’t already is: “Killing the White Man’s Indian – Reinventing Native Americans at the End of the Twentieth Century” – by Fergus M. Bordewich. (“explores Native American politics and policies today in all their contradictory, and controversial, guises.” ).

I couldn’t find the Colville article, but in the other two, it is an interesting cultural difference in how the wolf is viewed. But, like various religions of the dominionists, so too, are there various levels of “sacredness” to the indigenous.

In terms of Domestic Sovereigns, wherever Indians enjoy meaningful jurisdictions that impact reservation lands, they can hammer out their own directions in how they treat wolves or other issues. However, treaty rights, overlap into original homeland issues and agreements, which impact fish and wildlife that do not respect man made boundaries. (specially in the case of migratory ones).

So when it comes to harvest, or not, or how much, things become thornier. In respect to anadromous fish (Snake & Salmon River drainages), the split of fish is 50/50. How this relates to wolves, I’m not sure on?? WM ??

But I do know that Idaho was intent on continuing dominionists interests, (anti-wolf reintroductions) while indigenous (Nez Perce) had a different opinion, and direction, which eventually led to the state having to deal with it.

In general, people of today think Indian problems were things of yesterday, when in reality, they are still here. We still have treaty rights to respect, yet they most often get less attention than race issues between black and white America.

WM,
I could offer you quite many links and insights about how wolves are viewed in Europe. However most are not in English language. But, be assured, America, especially the west and southwest is unique. I deal with many comments attached to online articles and I do this for quite some years now. Sometimes I ask myself, if there is a manual available somewhere „Idiots guide to wolf hating“ or something like that? Does it give you the “10 most dumb anti wolf stereotypes” in every conceivable language? You´ll find these stereotypes everywhere. Every now and then, when you think dumbness has finally dried out, somebody is suddenly turning up on blogs or in press or in a meeting and again confronts you with this old and worn out bullshit: “…they eat everythin alive”, “…they eat first the elk (or European equivalent) and when elk are no longer available they eat our children” all this stuff. I´m so damn tired of it. At least, over here, I recently heard an argument that was new to me, and I´m in business quite a few years: “The weapons manufacturers will suffer and jobs will be lost (…..when the wolves have eaten all and there is nothing left to hunt!). Hey, not even your NRA did come up with this one!
But again, the level of arrogance, hate, of perversity, of weapons and kill and hunting fetishism displayed in the comments provided in US papers and blogs is unbelievable and unmatched. It is one of the reasons I no longer visit the American West. I´ve done this often and every other year, but no longer – the fun is gone!

It has been incredibly windy here the past two days. Today I think is worse than yesterday. I remember looking at the webcam and seeing the tree moving and thinking, I’m glad my feet are on the ground!

It seems to have calmed down now. I saw the parent exchange, a couple hours ago, and they were off the babies for about five minutes and the camera monitor wasn’t there to zoom in. That was kind of frustrating. the parent that had just arrived, at that point, fed at least one of the babies some bits of a dead bird that was recently caught. I’ve seen two fish come an go in the past 24 hours and a couple small birds. I wonder if the third one is coming out now. Two are definitely hatched and fluffy little things. What a chance of a lifetime to see that! And to see the parent communicating with each other and the peeps of the babies… priceless.

and, of course, they don’t care what the meaning of “healthy” is in reference to the ecosystem. All they care about is how they are not able to make so much $$ off the public’s elk and other “game” that the locals and outfitters envision as belonging only to them.

It would appear that some levels of Congressional authroity need to be put in check here. Some unidentified member of Congress is keeping this guy, not only in prison on questionable grounds, but had him moved to this super security location because he questioned the intent of a donor…? WTF? sounds a lot like the secret holds some use to delay, perpetually it seems, Bills and appointed personnel from ever getting a fair vote on the floor.

These folks need to be booted out of the halls of governing by the seat of their collective pants.

Just a friendly heads up. You might want to have your legal folks take a look at the photos on this site before allowing them to be republished by the link from your website. I don’t know much about copyright law, other than to say it can get messy on the internet.

Not quite sure how the author’s blanket statement of “Fair Use” on the photos, in fact makes them so from a legal perspective. The Fair Use doctrine is merely a defense to copyright infringement. He admits they were pirated off the trapper site. Then the site shut down or limited access for people to view them. Under ID law, the guy is engaged in a legal activity, no matter how distasteful and disgusting his photos are.

I see from the article there is a reference to Howling for Justice, who also has the story and some of photos and a link back to the site with the photos.

Acting on behalf of this trapper who might want to assert rights over his photos, some anti-wolfer with some money and an attitude could make it uncomfortable for some folks even if they don’t prevail in the end.

If this guy becomes governor in Montana, won’t be good news for Montana wolves. This guy wants to list wolves as predators and have them shot on sight year round. He wants to bring the population down to 150 animals. They will likely be put back on the endangered species list if they do bring the numbers down to 150 animals.

If Rick Hill becomes governor, it will be bad news for all wildlife and for hunters too because he will be one of the privatizers who want hunting to be an activity mostly for the top 1%. Yes, he will talk a lot about gun rights and wolves and the right to hunt and trap, but he will direct things in the direction of Don Peay of SFW and hunting as a sport for the rich and friends of the politicians by control of tags and access to the land.

This is a description of the fair use doctrine.
“While “fair use” is a somewhat nebulous term — and subject to interpretation — it refers to the things you can do with an image without permission. In general, it may be considered fair use if you are reproducing a work for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research.

Note, however, that if you reprint a work and if the copyright is called into question, the burden will fall on you to prove that you “believed and had reasonable grounds for believing that [your] use of the copyrighted work was a fair use,” according to the U.S. Copyright Office.

The U.S. Copyright Office notes that the factors that help determine whether use of a work constitutes fair use include:

The purpose of the work, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes.
The nature of the copyrighted work.
The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole.
The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.”

Its unlikely anyone would have problems arguing the fair use doctrine if they used that image to criticize that creep.

In today’s Mountain West News Daily Newsletter – “The American Society of Mammalogists said the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Wildlife Services has killed millions of mammals over the past decade, and sent a letter to the federal agency asking it to revamp its methods to use lethal methods less often, and in particular, criticized the agency’s killing of gray wolves and prairie dogs.”

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‎"At some point we must draw a line across the ground of our home and our being, drive a spear into the land and say to the bulldozers, earthmovers, government and corporations, “thus far and no further.” If we do not, we shall later feel, instead of pride, the regret of Thoreau, that good but overly-bookish man, who wrote, near the end of his life, “If I repent of anything it is likely to be my good behaviour."