There are some things you can always seem to count on in the video game industry. Activision is always working on a new Call of Duty game. Ubisoft's Beyond Good and Evil sequel is always "just around the corner." The PlayStation 3 is constantly hitting its stride. And Apple is perpetually on the verge of releasing a living room video game console that will revolutionize everything.

The latest person to buy into this never-ending speculation is none other than Valve co-founder Gabe Newell. He pontificated about an Apple console when speaking yesterday to a class at the University of Texas' LBJ School of Public Affairs. As Polygon reports, Newell told the class that Apple, and not the existing console makers, is the real threat to Valve's pending entry into the living room hardware market:

"The threat right now is that Apple has gained a huge amount of market share and has a relatively obvious pathway towards entering the living room with their platform. I think that there's a scenario where we see sort of a dumbed-down living room platform emerging—I think Apple rolls the console guys really easily. The question is can we make enough progress in the PC space to establish ourselves there and also figure out better ways of addressing mobile before Apple takes over the living room?"

It's hard to blame Newell for trying to be prepared, I suppose. Succeeding in business often means expecting the unexpected and planning for every contingency. But the thing that really gets me about this quote is the matter-of-fact way Newell considers a pending Apple console play. It doesn't matter that Apple has shown almost no official interest in gaming on the TV since 1996's ill-fated Pippin, and that Apple CEO Tim Cook said as recently as last May that he is "not interested in being in the console business in what is thought of as traditional gaming." That doesn't matter—Apple could still "roll the console guys easily" and will "take over the living room" at the drop of a hat, whenever it decides it wants to. The company has only held off doing so for this long because... um... hmm...

No so fast. Newell said shortly after those rumors circulated that Cook never actually visited Valve after all. And that rumored, gaming-powered Apple TV set was supposed to come out before the end of 2012... so maybe that information wasn't so reliable after all. But don't let that dissuade you—Apple is "still working on gaming."

These days, it's the Apple TV that is most often cited as the stealth entry point for Apple's "ultimate game console," simply by allowing the thousands of iOS games to access the TV. Never mind that controlling games designed for a touchscreen might not be the most natural thing to do on a living room HDTV (no, things like iPad or Magic Trackpad controls don't instantly solve this problem). Apple did file a patent to let other devices act as Apple TV controllers, including what looks a lot like Sony's DualShock, but the vast majority of iOS games are not currently designed with this kind of control scheme in mind. For those that are, if people really want to play them on a TV with button controls, there are third-party devices that already add this functionality. Others are jumping on rumors of a new Apple TV graphics chip as evidence that the box will soon support 3D games, but there could just as easily be innocuous supply chain explanations for such a change.

I can see why the idea of an Apple game console is so alluring. The iPhone and iPod touch came out of nowhere to form a major gaming platform that has already decimated the market for dedicated handheld game systems from Sony and Nintendo. But those iOS devices largely succeeded on their own merits first as media and communication devices before there was even an App Store for game developers to work on. They only became gaming powerhouses after there was a sufficient installed base for other purposes.

Apple has now sold more than 10 million Apple TVs, but the 5-year-old streaming box has often been referred to as a "hobby" inside Cupertino. It's certainly possible that millions more will rush out to scoop up an Apple TV if Apple ports all its iOS games over, but at this point that's putting the cart before the horse a bit. Plus, if people are hankering for games like Angry Birds on their TV, they can already play them on devices like the Roku 2.

Sure, it's impossible to prove a negative, and if Apple does decide to make a move for TV-based gaming, there will be tons of people saying they told us so. But even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Apple may eventually take a run at the game console market, but those claiming that move is perpetually "just around the corner" are like prophets constantly moving the date for Armageddon as their previously predicted doomsday passes by without incident.

Promoted Comments

The threat is very real, but Gabe isn't talking about an Apple gaming console. His concern is an Apple TV that runs apps, so the "casual" crowd can hook up a unit that plays Angry Birds and XXXX with Friends while also streaming media. This would defeat the purpose of those families buying a console, and would certainly harm broad adoption of PCs as living room machines.

1730 posts | registered Mar 14, 2002

Kyle Orland
Kyle is the Senior Gaming Editor at Ars Technica, specializing in video game hardware and software. He has journalism and computer science degrees from University of Maryland. He is based in the Washington, DC area. Emailkyle.orland@arstechnica.com//Twitter@KyleOrl

More importantly, I think it's just a matter of the AppleTV becoming a capable enough piece of hardware (gpu, bluetooth) that is open to the store -- at which point apple doesn't need to do anything except sit back and watch the market create games and controllers.

Uh, no. This is Apple, the "walled garden" company. They're not going to build a foundation and sit back while other companies innovate on top of it. They want all the credit and control, and for their proprietary designs to be the only choice for consumers. What you're suggesting totally goes against how they've treated everything related to iOS or OSX for the last decade.

Not true at all. Apple doesn't develop or publish every game on iOS, and they don't create every accessory, dock, case, widget, etc. for their hardware. There are already 3rd party controllers for the iPhone/iPad. The only things preventing the AppleTV from being a game device is the lack of app store access and the ability to pair a controller.

Add in that Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony aren't any more or less controlling about their game ecosystems. Some of these guys have even updated their consoles to stop working with unlicensed peripherals. So I don't really see Apple being so very different in that regard were they to release a console.

It would be crazy to not be on the lookout for this. Of course Apple has no interest in producing a traditional console, just like they had no interest in creating a standalone handheld gaming device... then destroyed the market for them via the iphone/ipod touch.

At some point it's inevitable that Apple TV will support apps + better integration with iOS devices as an input device. Enterprising app developers will create a vibrant casual gaming community around those basic tools and Apple will take a healthy chunk of that market as a happy byproduct of capturing (a much more lucrative) piece of the television/cable industry.

More importantly, I think it's just a matter of the AppleTV becoming a capable enough piece of hardware (gpu, bluetooth) that is open to the store -- at which point apple doesn't need to do anything except sit back and watch the market create games and controllers.

Uh, no. This is Apple, the "walled garden" company. They're not going to build a foundation and sit back while other companies innovate on top of it. They want all the credit and control, and for their proprietary designs to be the only choice for consumers. What you're suggesting totally goes against how they've treated everything related to iOS or OSX for the last decade.

Not true at all. Apple doesn't develop or publish every game on iOS, and they don't create every accessory, dock, case, widget, etc. for their hardware. There are already 3rd party controllers for the iPhone/iPad. The only things preventing the AppleTV from being a game device is the lack of app store access and the ability to pair a controller.

Add in that Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony aren't any more or less controlling about their game ecosystems. Some of these guys have even updated their consoles to stop working with unlicensed peripherals. So I don't really see Apple being so very different in that regard were they to release a console.

Unless you count the PC as a game ecosystem. If the AppleTV were just an entertainment device that happened to play games versus being a "game console made by Apple" it'd be no different than the fact that the iPhone is a communications device that happens to play games. And people are already making plenty of peripherals for the iPhone that Apple is not restricting.

Edit: on re-reading I can't tell for sure that you're disagreeing with me, but my additional point stands on it's own, as does your observation.

Secretmanofagent nailed it. Apple is already in millions of peoples living rooms with Apple TV's and those people can run any iOS game they want on their big screen by turning on mirroring on their ipads, iphones or iPod Touches. So the handheld device is the "controller" and the "CPU" for the "game console" and the "Apple TV" is an interface to the big screen. Apple is already there. Gabe is right to be anxious about this.

Considering apple's last attempt was the worst gaming console to ever exist and one of the biggest flops in all of computerdom I don't think an apple console will happen. Maybe an AppleTv with app support, but even that doesn't look too likely

The Pippin was made before Steve Jobs returned to Apple. The company has had a pretty big philosophical shift since then. It's also not like Apple pushed it directly anyway. It was a platform that like the 3DO was aimed at being licensed to 3rd parties to be distributed on their machines. If anything it was more a Bandai product failure if we're being technical. Saying that I'm not sure it's fair to say Apple flopped on the idea. At least not in the same way that say Atari did with the Jaguar or Sega did with the 32X or even Saturn. It was just a casualty of the post-Jobs purge.

Secretmanofagent nailed it. Apple is already in millions of peoples living rooms with Apple TV's and those people can run any iOS game they want on their big screen by turning on mirroring on their ipads, iphones or iPod Touches. So the handheld device is the "controller" and the "CPU" for the "game console" and the "Apple TV" is an interface to the big screen. Apple is already there. Gabe is right to be anxious about this.

Except that gaming on a touchscreen you're not looking at is awkward. They aren't quite there yet...

My gut tells me they will take over the gaming industry inadvertently.

They will be trying to take over the cable industry with the next version of the apple TV which allows 3rd party apps. I bet they will even make a new Ad type which is a video ad to go along with the iAds they currently have in the banners. This will allow them to take over a portion of ad revenue while content CREATORS such as discovery channel bypass the cable providers all together and give us a-l-a-carte content.

In the mean time, because of the advances in the opening of bluetooth there will be game controllers which popup for the appleTV and as a biproduct there will be all new games which take advantage of this, all because of 3rd party apps, not apple's direct intention. Their facebook integration can be used to bring ad content to us that we actually care about, rather than the same ad's for the same shows for everyone.

This is how they will continue to grow despite wall street's cackling the contrary.

This is how they will simultaneously take over the Cable Industry, Game Industry and the Television Ad Industry all in one fell swoop. Hows another 300 Billion sound?

If Apple wanted to have a home gaming consol, I think they would need something that would immediately grab the attention of the hardcore gamers. I remember when the X-Box came out and many people thought at the time that it would be a flop because many balked at the idea that Microsoft wanted to get into the home console business. Everyone thought it would tanlk thanks to Nintendo releasing the Gamecube that year. Then they revealed Halo. Halo was the killer app that got everyone to buy the system (Not me, though. I bought it for Jade Empire and KOTOR.).

Apple would need to do something like this if they want to make a run at console gaming. If they can develop a game that would grab EVERYONE'S attention, they would then be a force to be reconded with.

how would apple every pull this off? they have nothing to offer to the Video Game space

this is akin to saying people are gamers because they have Temple Run or Angry birds on their cell phone or tablet...its a joke.

They extend their current ecosystem. They allow TV apps.

My current HTPC can manage games with the addition of some software and a suitable controller. This concept should be easy enough for Apple to implement if they were really interested in it. Although they just don't seem interested.

I dont agree with this, Steam is a system with REAL games and ecosystem in place already, Apple has NOTHING to compete with that,

They don't need to. Apple is a hardware company. All they care about is selling AppleTVs. All they need to do is have an AppleTV with sufficient power, adequate storage, bluetooth/other wireless device standard, and an app store.

Third parties can do the rest. Third-parties can make controllers (although I imagine they'd converge on a standard that ends up looking like a dualshock or an XBox controller). Third parties can produce games. Hell, I can easily see a Steam App that sells games as in-app purchases. iOS already has baked in APIs for games to do multiplayer between devices. It would be trivial to port that over.

The thing is, having the whole thing revolve around 3rd parties would make the UI inconsistent and a bit crappy. Yet somehow, it'll still be a more user friendly experience than we get with the dedicated consoles.

If you look at the Apple products that people are actually buying versus the speculative ones that don't exist, it becomes questionable whether "entering the living room" even means anything anymore. Laptops, iPads, iPhones. You might notice a trend here.

If Apple wanted to have a home gaming consol, I think they would need something that would immediately grab the attention of the hardcore gamers. I remember when the X-Box came out and many people thought at the time that it would be a flop because many balked at the idea that Microsoft wanted to get into the home console business. Everyone thought it would tanlk thanks to Nintendo releasing the Gamecube that year. Then they revealed Halo. Halo was the killer app that got everyone to buy the system (Not me, though. I bought it for Jade Empire and KOTOR.).

Apple would need to do something like this if they want to make a run at console gaming. If they can develop a game that would grab EVERYONE'S attention, they would then be a force to be reconded with.

That's already happened, several times over. You just aren't paying attention.

Cut the Rope. Temple Run. Angry Birds. My Little Pony.

Apple has been quietly decimating the console industry; why do you think the Wii U has a 'tablet' as it's primary controller?

All Apple has to do now that there is an A5X powered Apple TV in the pipeline is add an API to iOS 7 that allows for game hosting on the Apple TV.

In other words:1) I download Warcraft* on my iPhone2) I AirPlay to my AppleTV3) Warcraft* is 'hosted' on my AppleTV4) I send an invite to every compatible iPhone and iPad connected to the wifi network5) Everyone accepts and now you have a 'big world' on the screen and every single iDevice has a 'local map' in their lap6) Chaos ensues

*Replace with the appropriate game as it becomes available. My Little Pony would work, for example, as well as a racing game, or Metal Gear Solid, or whatever. The TV would show the lead racer, for example, in the center, with stats and top down view on the peripheral, or however the developers want to use this.

I think Gabe was specifically talking about the Apple TV as an entertainment portal vs the big three consoles making strides in the same area.

He is effectively saying that the steam box will need to bring superior streaming and entertainment options if it is to supplant existing consoles and the Apple TV for that job next to the TV; not that apple will roll out a console of it's own, granted they market the iPod as a portable console and knowing Apple anything is possible.

I dont agree with this, Steam is a system with REAL games and ecosystem in place already, Apple has NOTHING to compete with that, they have an ecosystem that could roll games out IF they somehow procured studios in the way they did with ITunes.

Yes that have a an App store which sells games... real games... people buy those games and play them.

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as of right now Steam is positioned to offer the kind of one-off games that IOS has, but IOS is not prepared to offer the kind of in depth or serious gameplay that Steam has to offer.

You are making a very big mistaken in confusing an operating system with the games that run on it. iOS ]devices are currently under-powered to run the types of higher-end games which you might find on stream.

Apple could probably release an iOS device which would make for a solid console. If you look at the PSVita, which has some pretty nice-looking games... it's an ARM-based system with a SGX543MP4+ quad cores 400 MHz. The A6X in the iPhone 5 has a faster SGX554MP4 quad core @300 MHz. The 4th Gen iPad would likely be faster than the PSVita.

Now if Apple wasn't constrained by battery life (.e.g: you plug-in a console), they could easily build a console with a quad-core (or dual quad core) Cortex A15 based CPU and with 16 SGX554MP cores @ 400MHz, with 2-4GB of RAM, which would rival or maybe even surpase the Xbox 360 or PS3 in terms of graphics capabilities (or more likely it'd be something based on the up-coming series 6 PowerVR GPUs).

The only question is: does Apple will want to do that? Maybe if they decide to beef-up Apple TV and turn it into a console, but I doubt that many big game developers would get on board.

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prehaps Newell is spreading these rumors so that people will simply realize how terrible IOS would be for gaming.

It's not about the OS. Is Android any "better" for gaming? Nope. If you have system with good enough hardware and a decent version of OpenGL (or whatever API you prefer), you can make decent games.

Uh, no. This is Apple, the "walled garden" company. They're not going to build a foundation and sit back while other companies innovate on top of it. They want all the credit and control, and for their proprietary designs to be the only choice for consumers. What you're suggesting totally goes against how they've treated everything related to iOS or OSX for the last decade.

Not true at all. Apple doesn't develop or publish every game on iOS, and they don't create every accessory, dock, case, widget, etc. for their hardware. There are already 3rd party controllers for the iPhone/iPad. The only things preventing the AppleTV from being a game device is the lack of app store access and the ability to pair a controller.

Good points. Not sure what I was thinking; guess I hadn't had my afternoon coffee yet when I posted that.

I'm probably stirring the hornet nest here, but maybe the problem is core gamers? We tend to be a demanding and fairly technology-proficient lot. Maybe Apple just doesn't want to deal with us? One glance at forums for Microsoft or EA might suggest the customer service for core games could be a whole level beyond what Cupertino is used to handling. Again, just speculation.

The only reason I barely use my Apple TV is because my PS3 has all the same features + games. If Apple flips the "game-on" switch to its little box, then it's game-over for a lot of other players in this space.

If you think developers and publishers wouldn't push for AAA titles on this device, then I got a bridge to sell you.

Right, just like they pushed for AAA titles on the console of this generation with the largest install base, the Wii, manufactured by a company that is *established* in the console gaming market.

Game developers are not going to crawl over each other to get a chance to work with Apple on console gaming titles that cost millions of dollars to produce, nor is it likely the hardware Apple would use for this will even be capable of running said titles.

The only reason I barely use my Apple TV is because my PS3 has all the same features + games. If Apple flips the "game-on" switch to its little box, then it's game-over for a lot of other players in this space.

If you think developers and publishers wouldn't push for AAA titles on this device, then I got a bridge to sell you.

Right, just like they pushed for AAA titles on the console of this generation with the largest install base, the Wii, manufactured by a company that is *established* in the console gaming market.

Game developers are not going to crawl over each other to get a chance to work with Apple on console gaming titles that cost millions of dollars to produce, nor is it likely the hardware Apple would use for this will even be capable of running said titles.

It's people who buy the most stuff... be it Wii Fit or iPhones or iPads. Valve is right to be wary, because their business model isn't currently compatible with an Apple dominated entertainment center.

Maybe I am getting older but I am not sure if console gaming at all has legs. Most people seem content to play with underpowered games on tablets and iphones. I don't get it - I find the experience awful. But a moving to console gaming seems unnecessary..

I think the mistake the gaming industry makes is thinking everyone secretly wants to be a gamer but its just too hard. They do not. Apple TV games would be nothing more then a curiosity for most hard core gamers who only want to play the best..and the casual gamers (the big market) don't need it cause they sit on the couch, on the bus or train and play the awful casual games..

In short its the consoles that are getting buried.. Apple and the cable companies won. The console makers blew it.. The real hard core gamers hook up a PC to their TV for awesome gaming power.. The rest don't care enough and play iphones/ipads.

An AppleTV that plays games would be interesting. I like the idea of competition. But Apple is not typically the type to enter a fight in the middle. They start the fight. Steam, the Xbox, Playstation and Nintendo are already established with strong fanbases and excellent, mature offerings. Does anyone think Apple really wants to join that fight and risk embarrassment? It's risky for them. It's not their style.

I have used an Apple TV and I have to say that I have 0 interest in ever owning one -- even if it plays games. I have no interest in playing mobile games on my TV, but that's just me. I know there are plenty of people that would be interested in that strange concept.

Risk embarrassment in an industry that's mature? Like the cell phone manufacturing business? The music business?

If Apple wanted to have a home gaming consol, I think they would need something that would immediately grab the attention of the hardcore gamers. I remember when the X-Box came out and many people thought at the time that it would be a flop because many balked at the idea that Microsoft wanted to get into the home console business. Everyone thought it would tanlk thanks to Nintendo releasing the Gamecube that year. Then they revealed Halo. Halo was the killer app that got everyone to buy the system (Not me, though. I bought it for Jade Empire and KOTOR.).

Apple would need to do something like this if they want to make a run at console gaming. If they can develop a game that would grab EVERYONE'S attention, they would then be a force to be reconded with.

That's already happened, several times over. You just aren't paying attention.

Cut the Rope. Temple Run. Angry Birds. My Little Pony.

Apple has been quietly decimating the console industry; why do you think the Wii U has a 'tablet' as it's primary controller?

All Apple has to do now that there is an A5X powered Apple TV in the pipeline is add an API to iOS 7 that allows for game hosting on the Apple TV.

In other words:1) I download Warcraft* on my iPhone2) I AirPlay to my AppleTV3) Warcraft* is 'hosted' on my AppleTV4) I send an invite to every compatible iPhone and iPad connected to the wifi network5) Everyone accepts and now you have a 'big world' on the screen and every single iDevice has a 'local map' in their lap6) Chaos ensues

*Replace with the appropriate game as it becomes available. My Little Pony would work, for example, as well as a racing game, or Metal Gear Solid, or whatever. The TV would show the lead racer, for example, in the center, with stats and top down view on the peripheral, or however the developers want to use this.

You could do capture the flag where the 'flag' holder is on the TV.

I am actually talking about games that would make hardcore gamesrs take notice of it. Sure, everyone has heard of World of Warcraft, but how many people that already own it would want to play it on their TV?

I am talking about something unique to the system that draws anyone with doubts about that system. The Genesis had Sonic. Playstation had Final Fantasy VII. X-Box had Halo. The Wii had Twilight Princess.

I am not doubting that the the games you meantion aren't excellent (I love Angry Birds on my X-box 360), but none of them would have the power to get someone that loves console games to them. If they get something on there that can make the Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft fan want their console, they would need to try harder than Cut the Rope or Temple Run (both are good games, but neither are exactly console friendly).

The only reason I barely use my Apple TV is because my PS3 has all the same features + games. If Apple flips the "game-on" switch to its little box, then it's game-over for a lot of other players in this space.

If you think developers and publishers wouldn't push for AAA titles on this device, then I got a bridge to sell you.

Right, just like they pushed for AAA titles on the console of this generation with the largest install base, the Wii, manufactured by a company that is *established* in the console gaming market.

Game developers are not going to crawl over each other to get a chance to work with Apple on console gaming titles that cost millions of dollars to produce, nor is it likely the hardware Apple would use for this will even be capable of running said titles.

It's people who buy the most stuff... be it Wii Fit or iPhones or iPads. Valve is right to be wary, because their business model isn't currently compatible with an Apple dominated entertainment center.

Perhaps they don't "define" the gaming market, but they certainly make up a big portion of it. The highest grossing games, hell, even the highest grossing media of ANY KIND are AAA titles like Call of Duty. However, there are room for both those kinds of titles and casual gaming stuff as well. It's been proven that there is room for both to make money, and both serve different people.

In any case, I was only arguing the point OP was making that, for some reason, game developers would be chomping at the bit to work with Apple immediately when there would really be no reason to.

The only question is: does Apple will want to do that? Maybe if they decide to beef-up Apple TV and turn it into a console, but I doubt that many big game developers would get on board.

I doubt it. Beefing up an AppleTV that way would make it cost as much as a fancy console. If Apple had a choice between a mass-market device that's only good enough for multimedia and a more expensive device that can play games they'll go with the mass-market device for two reasons.

1.) "Hardcore" gamers, as a group, are hostile to Apple due to bizarre cultural biases that only make sense to them.

2.) If Apple has a much more expensive AppleTV that plays games, Samsung et. al. will make a much cheaper ripoff that doesn't and dominate that market.

Apple could do two AppleTVs, but the market they would reach with an "AppleTV Pro" would be pretty niche and probably not worth the money/effort. It wouldn't be like an iPad/iPad mini thing where most of the parts and design are the same. They'd have to have completely separate parts and supply choins and be designed completely differently. That seriously cuts into margins.

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It's not about the OS. Is Android any "better" for gaming? Nope. If you have system with good enough hardware and a decent version of OpenGL (or whatever API you prefer), you can make decent games.

The OS does matter. The changes and overall clunkiness of the X-Box Live interface for doing anything non-gaming has annoyed me to the point where I'm considering just not upgrading consoles in the next generation. I think iOS is actually ideal for a console. It's stripped down and has very low overhead. The UI is designed primarily around focusing on one task at a time (which is pretty much what you're doing when gaming.) The primary means of interaction is through Apps, which is what games are.

You lose a lot of benefits of PC gaming. You pretty much can't do mods or edit saves, for instance, but consoles don't allow that currently anyway.

More importantly, I think it's just a matter of the AppleTV becoming a capable enough piece of hardware (gpu, bluetooth) that is open to the store -- at which point apple doesn't need to do anything except sit back and watch the market create games and controllers.

Uh, no. This is Apple, the "walled garden" company. They're not going to build a foundation and sit back while other companies innovate on top of it. They want all the credit and control, and for their proprietary designs to be the only choice for consumers. What you're suggesting totally goes against how they've treated everything related to iOS or OSX for the last decade.

Not true at all. Apple doesn't develop or publish every game on iOS, and they don't create every accessory, dock, case, widget, etc. for their hardware. There are already 3rd party controllers for the iPhone/iPad. The only things preventing the AppleTV from being a game device is the lack of app store access and the ability to pair a controller.

Not only don't they develop or publish every game on iOS, they produce almost nothing. It's all third party developers. Same thing with accessories. Other than cables which they believe their customers might need, and so they assure supply by making them themselves, there are just a very small number of other things, such as covers for iPads. They only made the case for the iPhone because of the reception problem.

The only real thing holding the iPad or even the iPhone from becoming a "real" console, is the lack of API's from Apple for various controllers. The few controllers around now all use proprietary methods that very few games support. But if Apple came out with a deep set of API's for controllers, that would change everything.

A console that would run over batteries for hours at a time, with handheld controllers, would make a major impact. The iPad 3 is said to be almost as powerful as the 360 and PS2. The iPad 4 is twice as powerful as that, and next year, a new model could be twice as powerful again. Remember that Apple's chips are just dual core as opposed to the quad core ARM's from rivals. A quad "A" chip on a smaller process with the new GPU's from Imagination, would be a killer.

We know apps are coming to Apple TV. That's a given. Hell, it already has apps; they're just streaming media apps. But we know the App Store is coming to Apple TV. Apple may not have announced it, but one would have to be wearing blinders to not see it.

Once it does, Apple TV will instantly become a force to be reckoned with in the console gaming space. When will it happen? Who knows, but we know it will happen. Gabe just wants to be prepared.

Yes though, this might still be a few years off. It might even end up apple reacting to android tv-boxes/consoles...

the only missing pieces are the app store & controller... (and flash storage) we just got a first inkling with bt-keyboard support. obviously sometime we might see gamepad support, but i'd bet apple will try to push a more casual controller since that will be target market.

ultimately i'd place apples bet for the living room to become a direct threat to Nintendo, only tangibly impacting hardcore gamer consoles like steam, ps4 & xbox720. but i guess it will hurt legacy sales of ps3...

The threat is very real, but Gabe isn't talking about an Apple gaming console. His concern is an Apple TV that runs apps, so the "casual" crowd can hook up a unit that plays Angry Birds and XXXX with Friends while also streaming media. This would defeat the purpose of those families buying a console, and would certainly harm broad adoption of PCs as living room machines.

I dont agree with this, Steam is a system with REAL games and ecosystem in place already, Apple has NOTHING to compete with that, they have an ecosystem that could roll games out IF they somehow procured studios in the way they did with ITunes.

as of right now Steam is positioned to offer the kind of one-off games that IOS has, but IOS is not prepared to offer the kind of in depth or serious gameplay that Steam has to offer.

prehaps Newell is spreading these rumors so that people will simply realize how terrible IOS would be for gaming.

1: Apple already has numerous racing, sports, and other console quality action titles. Yes, they lack the depth $60 console games have, but that's not a limitation of the hardware or OS, that's just what companies have been willing to crank out at $1-5 per title. This has been consistently changing and advancing and higher quality titles are continually coming out. Yes, the bulk of titles are simple or casual games, but that does not mean other console titles do not exist or can;t be made.

2: PS3 and XBox combined have but a fraction of the market that iOS covers, but in living rooms, there's only a few dozen ATVs, and none of them have full-3D 1080P capable processors yet. An A6X (not a5X) ATV will likely be required to bring this full quality, as well as 16-32GB internal storage, BUT, if it existed, developers WILL take advantage of it. It's a massive market, and allowing phone, tablet, and TVs to all play the same titles, even varying modes between platforms for more immersive gaming, and even using the mobile devices as controllers or second screens is completely possible, it just hasn't been done yet because iOS on ATV doesn't permit 3rd party apps.

3: iOS can run any app you put in front of it. Nothing in the OS makes gaming any easier or harder than a console, it's all just software, and when it exists, people will buy it.

4: Apple doesn't compete with Steam. Steam is PC only, and the numbner of PC gamers are a tiny, tiny market compare to where iOS has been deployed. In 2-3 more generations, ARM GPUs will be pushing well in excess of full console quality resolutions and performance, and challenging even some PC graphics, and other than a lack of 64bit support (soon to no longer be an issue), there's little that's not possible in ARM to compete directly with the bulk of PC gamers. Yes, the top end enthusiasts will still have a niche, but that's maybe 1m gamers total worldwide, the real money is in MMO, RPS, and RTS, not FPS, and iOS already does that.

The only question is: does Apple will want to do that? Maybe if they decide to beef-up Apple TV and turn it into a console, but I doubt that many big game developers would get on board.

I think the whole point is that Apple wouldn't need to beef up Apple TV to make it a viable console. Because if Apple did it right, the Apple TV wouldn't really be competing with the consoles. The same way that iPhone has crushed the DS, without actually being a competitor for the DS.

You'd buy Apple TV to integrate with your iTunes media library, and because you saw it's got some cool apps, and only then would you realize it plays some fun games.

HA gabe is speaking sarcastically. apple is no real threat nor will it be a real threat to any of the future consoles cause ios lacks a huge thing. that is the ability to play 3d accelerated hardcore games @ 60fps @ 1080p on your living room tv with quality setting above the nintendo wii...

I dont agree with this, Steam is a system with REAL games and ecosystem in place already, Apple has NOTHING to compete with that,

They don't need to. Apple is a hardware company. All they care about is selling AppleTVs. All they need to do is have an AppleTV with sufficient power, adequate storage, bluetooth/other wireless device standard, and an app store.

Third parties can do the rest. Third-parties can make controllers (although I imagine they'd converge on a standard that ends up looking like a dualshock or an XBox controller). Third parties can produce games. Hell, I can easily see a Steam App that sells games as in-app purchases. iOS already has baked in APIs for games to do multiplayer between devices. It would be trivial to port that over.

The thing is, having the whole thing revolve around 3rd parties would make the UI inconsistent and a bit crappy. Yet somehow, it'll still be a more user friendly experience than we get with the dedicated consoles.

Agreed. Though Steam offers a selection of indie games, the number of studios producing titles compatible with PCs is diminishing daily. The more powerful consoles we can get for $200-400, the less appealing supporting top titles on a diminishing presence of $1000-4000 PCs is. the 4th gen consoles will push graphics performance on par with these PCs fore the first time ever in similar resolutions. If An ATV can push similar quality to the WiiU for $100, it will certainly have a niche.

The other thing is this, ATV would see incremental updates anually, but with high backward compatibility, enabling it to continually advance without users seeing high costs and maintaining their purchases. PS3 and Xbox having 7 year rotations will not be able to compete, and maybe 2-3 years after the 4th gen consoles come out, ARM will match or exceed that console generation in quality and performance. Also, a new iPad pushoing content to an older ATV wirelessly would have identical game performance to a newer ATV, or iPads and phones as screen-based controllers without having to buy proprietary parts puts a huge disadvantage on Sony, MS, and Nintendo trying to compete.

The appeal of hundreds of thousands of apps, most of which won't run on any console at all, will also be a huge appeal, as is the idea many living rooms will have iOS devices. When the device exists to support it, Devs, including EA and other big companies as well as thousands of small ones, will all jump on it, knowing there's an ionstant audience of tens of millions already compatible, and there's no major barriers to entry like the contract processes and costs involved in getting a game onto steam.

In 2-3 more generations, ARM GPUs will be pushing well in excess of full console quality resolutions and performance, and challenging even some PC graphics, and other than a lack of 64bit support (soon to no longer be an issue), there's little that's not possible in ARM to compete directly with the bulk of PC gamers. Yes, the top end enthusiasts will still have a niche, but that's maybe 1m gamers total worldwide, the real money is in MMO, RPS, and RTS, not FPS, and iOS already does that.

Seriously?a) there is no such thing as arm, console & desktop gpu's! What you mean are small, middle & big gpu's.b) as per my point (a) in any given year small gpus will never exceed 1-10% the performance of a big gpuc) 8k 3d realistic graphics is decades offd) the difference between the pc, consoles & mobile gaming has more to do with input controls (mice, gamepad, touch) and how complex actions they allow and the resulting target audience. obviously the last is the biggest, but also the least willing to pay...e) the biggest $$$ making franchises are callofduty & battlefield... both FPS. (MMO & RPG are probably as lucrative, don't forget Sports & Racing games. but RTS? no they are definitely not a money press...)

I think though that now's a pretty good time for Apple to be looking at this; with a relatively minor hardware improvement and not a massive software undertaking they could easily enable games on Apple TV and do very well from it.

I mean hardware-wise it only needs the updated processor and GPU that we're pretty sure it's going to get regardless, and some useable persistent storage. Software wise is just a switch to a more full-blooded version of iOS tailored for the TV, with a slick game store and a way to easily distribute game-controller apps to your (and your friends) iOS devices so they can just bring their iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad and join the fun.

As far as projects go it's not a huge one, but it would make the Apple TV a lot more attractive (especially if they can keep it at the current price-point). While it might not compete directly with true next gen consoles, it would really benefit from the kind of quirky, fun and casual games that already exist for iOS. Hell, some probably wouldn't be too hard to add multiplayer features to provided Apple makes it easy enough. I don't think anyone expects it to run the next Call of Duty, but we've already seen some very impressive games on iOS so why not extend that to our TV's?

I am guessing as a developer of pretty popular "hardcore" games like Half Life, Portal, Left4Dead and Counter-Strike, Valve probably has access to next gen console development kits, and has some idea of where Sony and Microsoft are headed with them

GabeN does not come right out and say it but here is what he is probably trying to tell the rest of the gaming industry - Apple is going to come in and eat our lunch if we are not careful. they have already done so to the NintendoDS and PSVita market with their iPhones/iPads/iPod Touches, and Apple is poised to do the same with the home console market if the dedicated console makers are not careful.

Nintendo just this week announced that the WiiU is not selling up to expectations. I predict the next NextBox and PS4 (or whatever they will be called) are going to be the last dedicated home consoles brought to market.

GabeN wants to position Steam (and all of his Steam Boxes) to cater to the small h"hardcore" gamers while the rest of the public moves on to devices like the AppleTV

The threat is very real, but Gabe isn't talking about an Apple gaming console. His concern is an Apple TV that runs apps, so the "casual" crowd can hook up a unit that plays Angry Birds and XXXX with Friends while also streaming media. This would defeat the purpose of those families buying a console, and would certainly harm broad adoption of PCs as living room machines.

How many people actually have an Apple TV? You overstate the threat...

The threat is very real, but Gabe isn't talking about an Apple gaming console. His concern is an Apple TV that runs apps, so the "casual" crowd can hook up a unit that plays Angry Birds and XXXX with Friends while also streaming media. This would defeat the purpose of those families buying a console, and would certainly harm broad adoption of PCs as living room machines.

How many people actually have an Apple TV? You overstate the threat...

HA gabe is speaking sarcastically. apple is no real threat nor will it be a real threat to any of the future consoles cause ios lacks a huge thing. that is the ability to play 3d accelerated hardcore games @ 60fps @ 1080p on your living room tv with quality setting above the nintendo wii...

The only reason I barely use my Apple TV is because my PS3 has all the same features + games. If Apple flips the "game-on" switch to its little box, then it's game-over for a lot of other players in this space.

If you think developers and publishers wouldn't push for AAA titles on this device, then I got a bridge to sell you.

Right, just like they pushed for AAA titles on the console of this generation with the largest install base, the Wii, manufactured by a company that is *established* in the console gaming market.

Game developers are not going to crawl over each other to get a chance to work with Apple on console gaming titles that cost millions of dollars to produce, nor is it likely the hardware Apple would use for this will even be capable of running said titles.

It's people who buy the most stuff... be it Wii Fit or iPhones or iPads. Valve is right to be wary, because their business model isn't currently compatible with an Apple dominated entertainment center.

Perhaps they don't "define" the gaming market, but they certainly make up a big portion of it.

That didn't seem to help with the last console generation, the current handheld generation, or PC gaming, did they?

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The highest grossing games, hell, even the highest grossing media of ANY KIND are AAA titles like Call of Duty. However, there are room for both those kinds of titles and casual gaming stuff as well. It's been proven that there is room for both to make money, and both serve different people.

I hate to say it, but you are "casually" ignoring the "casual" game market as if it doesn't exist ...

I read the waily waily all the time on Gamasutra. What they should do is advertise *their* games in the casual space- in game ads and whatnot. Bring new people into the bigger gaming fold. I know a woman in her 50s who went from Farmville to Fallout 3 on the XBox. True story. It can happen.