King Boonen wrote:I've argued for a long time that pretty much everyone who rides a bike should be on a steel frame and I still think that's true, even for amateur racers. I'm sure if I handed my steel bike to a faster club-mate and took their Venge or Propel they'd still beat me in a race. I'd love to see steel back in the WT too, but I don't think it's going to happen.

One of Eddy's team mates once said, "Eddy can win on my bike, I can't win on his'..

Cute story but win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Mass produced carbon is cheap to make, why they 'insist' on teams using the stuff with the BIG margins.

I agree with the steel thing, but until a lighter steel comes out, though Rodriguez made a bike called the Outlaw that weighed 13.5 pounds out of steel fully equipped of course but it's expensive at around $11,000 which is fine for wealthy people but not so much for everyone else. So to buy a steel bike today would weigh around 22-23 pounds, about the same as they did 35 years ago, and you can't even find a steel road bike at an LBS, though Bikes Direct has a decent one called the Motobecane Gran Premio Elite for just under $900 with 105 components. So today's weight weenies want a light bike with fancy buzzwords and a winning well known smiling pro racer endorsing it. And that's the issue with steel currently, to make it light like carbon you'll pay through the nose to get it, so why pay that much when you can get a CF bike for less? People don't want to hear the practical side of anything these days.

I own 6 steel bikes, but I stayed with metal when I got my last new bike 4 years ago with a titanium Lynskey Peloton (their lowest costing model at the time), but the ti frame does have a bit smoother ride than the steel bikes, except for my touring bikes, but those also have 32 mm wide tires vs 23 or 25 and thus has about 40 psi less air which gives it a bit nicer ride than the Lynskey.

A lot of people don't realize how cheap it is to make a CF frame and fork in Asia.

King Boonen wrote:I've argued for a long time that pretty much everyone who rides a bike should be on a steel frame and I still think that's true, even for amateur racers. I'm sure if I handed my steel bike to a faster club-mate and took their Venge or Propel they'd still beat me in a race. I'd love to see steel back in the WT too, but I don't think it's going to happen.

One of Eddy's team mates once said, "Eddy can win on my bike, I can't win on his'..

Cute story but win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Mass produced carbon is cheap to make, why they 'insist' on teams using the stuff with the BIG margins.

I agree with the steel thing, but until a lighter steel comes out, though Rodriguez made a bike called the Outlaw that weighed 13.5 pounds out of steel fully equipped of course but it's expensive at around $11,000 which is fine for wealthy people but not so much for everyone else. So to buy a steel bike today would weigh around 22-23 pounds, about the same as they did 35 years ago, and you can't even find a steel road bike at an LBS, though Bikes Direct has a decent one called the Motobecane Gran Premio Elite for just under $900 with 105 components. So today's weight weenies want a light bike with fancy buzzwords and a winning well known smiling pro racer endorsing it. And that's the issue with steel currently, to make it light like carbon you'll pay through the nose to get it, so why pay that much when you can get a CF bike for less? People don't want to hear the practical side of anything these days.

I own 6 steel bikes, but I stayed with metal when I got my last new bike 4 years ago with a titanium Lynskey Peloton (their lowest costing model at the time), but the ti frame does have a bit smoother ride than the steel bikes, except for my touring bikes, but those also have 32 mm wide tires vs 23 or 25 and thus has about 40 psi less air which gives it a bit nicer ride than the Lynskey.

A lot of people don't realize how cheap it is to make a CF frame and fork in Asia.

Not true..I had a Waterford R-33 with Record that weighed 16 pounds with aluminum cockpit and rims..add some carbon and easily below the UCI limit.

Several years ago my wife rode a LeMond steel frame bike (I forget the model). When I sold it for her I was surprised to find that it weighed 18-pounds complete with pedals, bottle cage, and triple crankset.

King Boonen wrote:I've argued for a long time that pretty much everyone who rides a bike should be on a steel frame and I still think that's true, even for amateur racers. I'm sure if I handed my steel bike to a faster club-mate and took their Venge or Propel they'd still beat me in a race. I'd love to see steel back in the WT too, but I don't think it's going to happen.

One of Eddy's team mates once said, "Eddy can win on my bike, I can't win on his'..

Cute story but win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Mass produced carbon is cheap to make, why they 'insist' on teams using the stuff with the BIG margins.

I agree with the steel thing, but until a lighter steel comes out, though Rodriguez made a bike called the Outlaw that weighed 13.5 pounds out of steel fully equipped of course but it's expensive at around $11,000 which is fine for wealthy people but not so much for everyone else. So to buy a steel bike today would weigh around 22-23 pounds, about the same as they did 35 years ago, and you can't even find a steel road bike at an LBS, though Bikes Direct has a decent one called the Motobecane Gran Premio Elite for just under $900 with 105 components. So today's weight weenies want a light bike with fancy buzzwords and a winning well known smiling pro racer endorsing it. And that's the issue with steel currently, to make it light like carbon you'll pay through the nose to get it, so why pay that much when you can get a CF bike for less? People don't want to hear the practical side of anything these days.

I own 6 steel bikes, but I stayed with metal when I got my last new bike 4 years ago with a titanium Lynskey Peloton (their lowest costing model at the time), but the ti frame does have a bit smoother ride than the steel bikes, except for my touring bikes, but those also have 32 mm wide tires vs 23 or 25 and thus has about 40 psi less air which gives it a bit nicer ride than the Lynskey.

A lot of people don't realize how cheap it is to make a CF frame and fork in Asia.

Not true..I had a Waterford R-33 with Record that weighed 16 pounds with aluminum cockpit and rims..add some carbon and easily below the UCI limit.

froze wrote:..A lot of people don't realize how cheap it is to make a CF frame and fork in Asia..

Sure, if you were born yesterday or living under a rock for the last 20 years.

Steel road bikes are very difficult to find at LBS, none of the 4 shops in my city carry a steel road bike, they do carry steel comfort bikes if you want to call those road bike...I don't. I've been to other stores in other cities and no steel bikes. When I said you can't find a steel bike in an LBS I should have been more exact, but in general you cannot find them any more, aluminum and Carbon Fiber is all you will mostly find, sure you could go into a shop that sells Colnago or some other brand that makes a steel bike and they might have one in stock, usually you'll have to order it because they don't want a steel bike that cost as much as lighter AL and CF bikes taking up inventory space on the showroom floor that may not sell, unless they're in a weird market where steel road bikes are all the rage. And there are a few shops that sell Waterford's and the such but they specialize in the more unique boutique type of cycling, along the lines of Rivendell philosophy, but I was speaking in general terms in regards to most LBS's. The only way I can get a steel road bike at an LBS where I live is by special order from the one brand they carry that has a steel model.

You must live in a pretty small market, froze, with only 4 shops around you because in the last 7 years I've lived in three cities and can't throw a rock without hitting multiple dealers that carry all kinds of steel bikes. All price ranges and and types covered from a multitude of brands. Low to high, road, mtb, cx, tour, commute. I'm in the industry for 20+ years and travel a lot, and your experience is not by any means indicative of the norm.

Along with being one of the best anywhere in the world, Darrell is a local to boot

The large markets I've been too was back 15 years and more ago and you could still readily find steel bikes, but even in Indianapolis the 2 places I've gone to had no steel bikes, nor did bike shops I visited in recently in Santa Barbara CA, Kerrville Tx, Daytona (Port Orange) Florida, . Please keep in mind I mean steel road bikes, not comfort bikes, trikes, fixies, cruisers, touring, or MTB's. I know that Raleigh makes a steel road bike but the local shop doesn't carry the steel one, Kona makes one too but the shop that carried Kona never had the steel one in stock and now they're out of business where I live. Yes I know steel bikes are out there, but the shops I've been to just didn't stock them, but you could order one; and I'm sure if a store did carry a steel road bike they would only have one so the selection would be very limited. It's not like 20 years ago I could walk into any bike shop and they would have at least a dozen different brands and models of steel bikes mixed in with a dozen or so AL and a dozen or so CF bikes, now it's predominately CF and AL.

Steel bikes today is kind of like going into a bike shop and grab a nice mid end (they don't make a high end any more) 27" tire! Sure you might find one but it will probably be a cheap and crappy Cheng Shin, or Kenda, or some such copy of them, you have to go on the internet to get an nice mid end 27" tire. I have two bike stores that carry Conti tires but none carry a 27" tire in that brand even though Conti makes 5 of them in that size...I have to order it, but I can get the cheap and crappy Kenda 27" tire in one of the stores.

Along with being one of the best anywhere in the world, Darrell is a local to boot

The large markets I've been too was back 15 years and more ago and you could still readily find steel bikes, but even in Indianapolis the 2 places I've gone to had no steel bikes, nor did bike shops I visited in recently in Santa Barbara CA, Kerrville Tx, Daytona (Port Orange) Florida, . Please keep in mind I mean steel road bikes, not comfort bikes, trikes, fixies, cruisers, touring, or MTB's. I know that Raleigh makes a steel road bike but the local shop doesn't carry the steel one, Kona makes one too but the shop that carried Kona never had the steel one in stock and now they're out of business where I live. Yes I know steel bikes are out there, but the shops I've been to just didn't stock them, but you could order one; and I'm sure if a store did carry a steel road bike they would only have one so the selection would be very limited. It's not like 20 years ago I could walk into any bike shop and they would have at least a dozen different brands and models of steel bikes mixed in with a dozen or so AL and a dozen or so CF bikes, now it's predominately CF and AL.

Steel bikes today is kind of like going into a bike shop and grab a nice mid end (they don't make a high end any more) 27" tire! Sure you might find one but it will probably be a cheap and crappy Cheng Shin, or Kenda, or some such copy of them, you have to go on the internet to get an nice mid end 27" tire. I have two bike stores that carry Conti tires but none carry a 27" tire in that brand even though Conti makes 5 of them in that size...I have to order it, but I can get the cheap and crappy Kenda 27" tire in one of the stores.

Is this going the way of the the nostalgic 'I wish shops were like how it was in the 90's?' Well sure, back then most of the pro peloton was still riding steel and you could go to a shop and buy one with the money you made working a p/t landscaping job. Stating the obvious. But to generalize that you can't find high end steel bikes anywhere now because your 4 shop town doesn't have any and this list isn't exactly what I would consider very bikey at all. Kerrville, TX? Port Orange Florida? Ha-ha! Are you serious?? Indianapolis is, you just didn't look hard enough.

Along with being one of the best anywhere in the world, Darrell is a local to boot

The large markets I've been too was back 15 years and more ago and you could still readily find steel bikes, but even in Indianapolis the 2 places I've gone to had no steel bikes, nor did bike shops I visited in recently in Santa Barbara CA, Kerrville Tx, Daytona (Port Orange) Florida, . Please keep in mind I mean steel road bikes, not comfort bikes, trikes, fixies, cruisers, touring, or MTB's. I know that Raleigh makes a steel road bike but the local shop doesn't carry the steel one, Kona makes one too but the shop that carried Kona never had the steel one in stock and now they're out of business where I live. Yes I know steel bikes are out there, but the shops I've been to just didn't stock them, but you could order one; and I'm sure if a store did carry a steel road bike they would only have one so the selection would be very limited. It's not like 20 years ago I could walk into any bike shop and they would have at least a dozen different brands and models of steel bikes mixed in with a dozen or so AL and a dozen or so CF bikes, now it's predominately CF and AL.

Steel bikes today is kind of like going into a bike shop and grab a nice mid end (they don't make a high end any more) 27" tire! Sure you might find one but it will probably be a cheap and crappy Cheng Shin, or Kenda, or some such copy of them, you have to go on the internet to get an nice mid end 27" tire. I have two bike stores that carry Conti tires but none carry a 27" tire in that brand even though Conti makes 5 of them in that size...I have to order it, but I can get the cheap and crappy Kenda 27" tire in one of the stores.

Is this going the way of the the nostalgic 'I wish shops were like how it was in the 90's?' Well sure, back then most of the pro peloton was still riding steel and you could go to a shop and buy one with the money you made working a p/t landscaping job. Stating the obvious. But to generalize that you can't find high end steel bikes anywhere now because your 4 shop town doesn't have any and this list isn't exactly what I would consider very bikey at all. Kerrville, TX? Port Orange Florida? Ha-ha! Are you serious?? Indianapolis is, you just didn't look hard enough.

You assume a lot don't you? I never said I wish for shops to be like the 90's again. The point of my discussion is that steel is not anywhere near as available as they use to be, plain and simple, don't try to read anything more into then that. As far as not looking hard enough...I didn't go in looking for a steel bike, if I was I would have looked harder.

There's more high end steel road to choose from today than ever before. Just because you can't go into every shop in Anytown USA to buy one doesn't validate the assertion that they're "not as available as they used to be."

Giuseppe Magnetico wrote:There's more high end steel road to choose from today than ever before. Just because you can't go into every shop in Anytown USA to buy one doesn't validate the assertion that they're "not as available as they used to be."

"not as available as they use to be", how long ago are you going back to when you say "use to be"? 5 years ago? sure that's true, 20 years ago? not true whatsoever.

For some reason you want to keep going around and around with this and keep beating a dead horse, you know as much as I do that the occasional shop that carries any steel bikes will have maybe one or two steel bikes on display at the most, but steel bike will not comprise of even 10% of the floor space reserved for bikes, unless you go to a store that sells Rivendell or Waterford only products, or only vintage bikes.

Giuseppe Magnetico wrote:There's more high end steel road to choose from today than ever before. Just because you can't go into every shop in Anytown USA to buy one doesn't validate the assertion that they're "not as available as they used to be."

"not as available as they use to be", how long ago are you going back to when you say "use to be"? 5 years ago? sure that's true, 20 years ago? not true whatsoever.

That's your quote there, froze.

For some reason you want to keep going around and around with this and keep beating a dead horse, you know as much as I do that the occasional shop that carries any steel bikes will have maybe one or two steel bikes on display at the most, but steel bike will not comprise of even 10% of the floor space reserved for bikes, unless you go to a store that sells Rivendell or Waterford only products, or only vintage bikes.

Because you can't make broad sweeping generalizations and assume they apply to everybody. I can go to a few different shops in my neighborhood, not city, neighborhood, and pick up a very raceable steel road bike. Not just this city, but the other two I've lived in for over the last few years. So you're not speaking for me, not in the least bit. How about I move to some hick town with only one bar and complain about the beer selection and that there's nowhere else to go drink. You're essentially doing the same thing here.

Giuseppe Magnetico wrote:There's more high end steel road to choose from today than ever before. Just because you can't go into every shop in Anytown USA to buy one doesn't validate the assertion that they're "not as available as they used to be."

"not as available as they use to be", how long ago are you going back to when you say "use to be"? 5 years ago? sure that's true, 20 years ago? not true whatsoever.

That's your quote there, froze.

For some reason you want to keep going around and around with this and keep beating a dead horse, you know as much as I do that the occasional shop that carries any steel bikes will have maybe one or two steel bikes on display at the most, but steel bike will not comprise of even 10% of the floor space reserved for bikes, unless you go to a store that sells Rivendell or Waterford only products, or only vintage bikes.

Because you can't make broad sweeping generalizations and assume they apply to everybody. I can go to a few different shops in my neighborhood, not city, neighborhood, and pick up a very raceable steel road bike. Not just this city, but the other two I've lived in for over the last few years. So you're not speaking for me, not in the least bit. How about I move to some hick town with only one bar and complain about the beer selection and that there's nowhere else to go drink. You're essentially doing the same thing here.

Great, now tell me what steel racing bike that some amatuer racer would want to use in a club race that is on display, in stock, and for sale at your LBS right now.