JK: When people ask me why I like your book, Enlightenment for
Beginners so much, I tell them it is because of its simplicity
and directness. But in some way, it is hard for me to sum up the
message of your book. Could you do that for my readers? In other
words: how would you summarize the essence of your message?

CH: This book is a thirty minute reminder that you already are
'who' [and what] you have been looking for. However, you've
cleverly disguised this profound Truth behind an elaborately
seductive game that you're playing called 'Life.' This boook uses
very simple words and cartoon drawings to demonstrate, in a
playful manner, some of the cosmic [and comic] implications of
playing this Game and just how [and why] your Self-deception
continues to weave such a magic spell.

JK: What kind of Game are you referring to? How is it created?

CH: The momentum for this cosmic Game is created whenever you
pretend that what isn't, somehow, is far superior to what is.
Although this belief keeps you focused on a never-ending journey
towards happiness and enlightenment, it also guarantees that you
will never reach a point of permanent satisfaction and peace.
Why? Because this whole notion of being on a
'journey-to-fulfilment' is actually the secret method that the
desperate ego uses in order to survive in the face of personal
annihilation of Consciousness. In other words, as long as the ego
stays more focused on making the 'journey,' it can continue to
avoid disappearing entirely in the blinding realization of the
true identity of the mystic 'traveller.'

~ ~ ~

Wayne Liquorman

JK: Those who are reading about Zen and Advaita Vedanta often
conclude that there is no right and wrong. That all the values
are 'just in our minds.' Is that also like that for you?

WL: No! Oh no, not at all.

JK: When you watch the nine o'clock news, are you less tempted to
say that certain things are bad?

WL: No! The organism that is watching the television programme
has values, has preferences.

JK: It's not all a grey...

WL: ... Those who say that 'all is consciousness and it doesn't
matter,' that's bullshit. That is the state of the seeker who has
an advanced knowledge of the subject. He negates all the
qualities of things and mixes them together and says, 'It's all
consciousness.' When the final understanding happens, all of that
stuff falls away. And there simply is a direct response by the
organism. And the organism has preferences, and says, 'I like
that, and I don't like that.'

JK: Was it the same for Ramesh, when you were with him?

WL: Yes. For example, when Ramesh watched someone talking on the
Indian television -- for example some politician on the news --
he said, 'that guy is a fool, he's such a fool!'

JK: Ramesh still had preferences and didn't try to hide that.

WL: Of course. There's no bland ... there is still passion for
life. There is a response in the body. What is absent is any
sense -- any sense whatsoever -- that what is happening should be
other than it is.

JK: That's the point.

WL: Yes. That's the way it is. For example, I don't like it, but
that's the way it is. That's the basic quality; it is the way it
is.

~ ~ ~

Francis Lucille

JK: So, for you this solidness of the body has disappeared?
Suppose you have very severe dental pain, isn't that area of
pain, the source of the sensation, extremely real? Isn't there a
moment where you would be identified with that pain?

FL: That is true. Yes. But at the same time, there is an absence
of personal reaction to it. A lack of mental reaction, if you
like. I can imagine that at a certain point of life I could be in
a situation of terrible pain. There can be an exceptional level
of pain where we are involved personally, yes. But these
experiences never last.

JK: And does it really matter? I mean, even being identified, is
it a problem?

FL: You're right, it's not a problem.

JK: It is equally Consciousness, isn't it?

FL: Even when we fall back into an old pattern of emotional
responding, it is...

JK: ...like a cloud passing by.

FL: Yes. You see, there is a lot of difference between a sky
which is completely grey with no blue holes in it, which is the
state of the ignorant, and the sky which is uniformly blue, which
is the state of the sage. But when there is one little cloud
passing by, it doesn't matter. It is only because we are so
'fundamentalist' that we would not accept such a could. Of
course, the sky is absolutely blue because Consciousness is
absolute, but it is the ego who wants the mind to be absolute.

JK: Which is impossible.

FL: Which is impossible. But as a result of this understanding,
as a result of the clarification of the mind and the purification
of the body, there is this continuous appearance of the perfume
of our true nature.