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Re: Gene Michael Yankeeography

I don't know, I think Gene Michael is more deserving to have a plaque on Monument Wall for his contributions to the Yankees than Billy Martin having his number retired.

I agree that Stick made more contributions to the Yankees overall than Martin.

Hey, until the Knicks and Celtics game tightened up, I watched a lot of the episode and am happy for 'Stick'. I met him once at a golf tournament and while he'd have no recollection of me, he was a really nice and down to earth guy.

It did just kind of crack me up when the solemn music started and I heard "Yankeeography, Gene Michael".

Though, I suppose if any front office guy deserves a Yankeeography, it's he.

Re: Gene Michael Yankeeography

Originally Posted by mr.roy

Certainly, Billy as a player and then manager, had more contributions than Gene as a player, and I don't think he was ever a manager.

Michael was a loyal organizational man for a long time, doing whatever job George asked of him - M, scout, and yes, manager. During the period when the Yankees made 17 managerial changes in 13 years, Michael took the job twice.

In strike-split 1981, Michael's Yankees won the first half of the season, ensuring a playoff spot. When they started the second half slowly, Michael got tired of Steinbrenner's harassment, and he said so:

Michael spoke of continuing abuse from Steinbrenner at an impromptu news conference before the game. Michael, referring to several pages of notes as he talked, said that he had decided to speak out to ''save face'' and ''so people know how I'm having to operate here.''

Michael said that Steinbrenner told him this afternoon by telephone that he could be dismissed before the evening was over. ''I don't know how serious he is but I don't like it,'' Michael said. ''It's not fair that he criticizes me and threatens to fire me all the time. I'd rather he do it than talk about it. I told him exactly that today - don't wait.''

...Last year, Michael said, Dick Howser was not subjected to the same kind of pressure because Steinbrenner often made his comments to Michael, the general manager, who elected not to pass them along. Howser was dismissed after last season despite managing the Yankees to 103 victories and the Eastern Division title in his first year in the post.

Michael said that Steinbrenner not only telephones after losses to criticize managerial decisions, but has also humiliated him in front of his coaches.

According to sources in the Yankee organization, the owner was angered by what he considered Michael's disloyalty and audacity. Steinbrenner waited for the manager to offer an apology, and finally asked for one when the two spoke by telephone two days ago.

On Friday night, when Michael refused to admit he had done anything wrong, Steinbrenner called Lemon and offered him the job...

Steinbrenner called his decision the ''most agonizing'' he had made as Yankee owner. ''This guy is like family,'' he said of Michael, who had been associated with the club as a player, coach, minor league manager and general manager. He was Steinbrenner's choice to succeed Dick Howser, who was dismissed last fall as manager.

''I feel like a father scorned,'' Steinbrenner said by telephone this morning from an undisclosed location. ''I feel like I have a son who has done something wrong and isn't mature enough to admit it. This is the worst thing to happen to me since I got the Yankees.''

In 1982, Steinbrenner revamped the team, and did a terrible job of it. But he announced his total support for Lemon, all year, no matter what. That promise didn't survive a 6-8 start. Michael took over on April 27, then he in turn got fired on August 3.

Steinbrenner really was a complete a$$hole in that period, and Stick's main contribution as a manager was to stand up to him. As a player he conributed nothing. As GM from 1991-1995, though, I think it's fair to say he made a huge contribution, probably more than Martin ever made.

I think Martin's contributions are easily overstated. Fine World Series player, but the rest of the time he was just a basic utility player. Oh, and he was a great drinking-and-fighting buddy. He was an extremely effective manager wherever he went, but only for short stretches. By his last few times with the Yankees he was shot, a mean, twitch, paranoid parody of himself. I wish they had not retired his number.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.

Re: Gene Michael Yankeeography

Originally Posted by JL25and3

Michael was a loyal organizational man for a long time, doing whatever job George asked of him - M, scout, and yes, manager. During the period when the Yankees made 17 managerial changes in 13 years, Michael took the job twice.

In strike-split 1981, Michael's Yankees won the first half of the season, ensuring a playoff spot. When they started the second half slowly, Michael got tired of Steinbrenner's harassment, and he said so:
The Yankees went on a 7-2 streak, but Steinbrenner fired Michael anyway:

In 1982, Steinbrenner revamped the team, and did a terrible job of it. But he announced his total support for Lemon, all year, no matter what. That promise didn't survive a 6-8 start. Michael took over on April 27, then he in turn got fired on August 3.

Steinbrenner really was a complete a$$hole in that period, and Stick's main contribution as a manager was to stand up to him. As a player he conributed nothing. As GM from 1991-1995, though, I think it's fair to say he made a huge contribution, probably more than Martin ever made.

I think Martin's contributions are easily overstated. Fine World Series player, but the rest of the time he was just a basic utility player. Oh, and he was a great drinking-and-fighting buddy. He was an extremely effective manager wherever he went, but only for short stretches. By his last few times with the Yankees he was shot, a mean, twitch, paranoid parody of himself. I wish they had not retired his number.

Personally, I think Martin is vastly overrated, at least insofar as what he did as Yankee manager, and insofar as having a plaque.

He's sort of credited with turning the Yankees around in 1976 and yet that was a really good team (albeit lacking a true cleanup hitter). He wins in 1977 with a team that was pretty well loaded and then can't even hold it together to get through 1978 with a team that had added Gossage.

He goes onto the A's and was credited with the 'Billyball' stuff, and yet he had Rickey freaking Henderson on that team and played in a cavernous stadium (who wouldn't run a lot with them?) and destroyed three of his pitchers.

Martin was basically like a steroid injection. Got fast and sometimes unnatural results but long term everything breaks down.

I think it was in 1987, he sent Pagliarulo up to hit right handed as a means of showing up the front office. That was really it for me with Billy Martin.

Gossage said in his book that Martin told him to intentionally bean Billy Sample in the head in a spring training game (and used a racial slur as part of the directive). Gossage was like, "I can't do that, Billy. I'm not hitting the guy in the head. I could kill him."

Martin took that as disloyal and nearly destroyed Gossage's first year with the Yankees in the process.

Re: Gene Michael Yankeeography

Certainly, Billy as a player and then manager, had more contributions than Gene as a player, and I don't think he was ever a manager.

Martin's "contributions as a player" as compared to Michael's are nothing but a fate of timing.

Martin was a player during a Yankee period of dynasty.

Michaels had the misfortune to join the Yankees during their down years.

As for their post-playing careers, IMO Stick had a much greater impact on baseball in general than Billy Martin. His tenure as the GM of the Yankees in the early 1990s set in place the pieces that resulted in the 1996-2000 four out of five WS championships.

IMO, there is no comparison between the two. Michael far more deserves recognition as a Yankee than does Martin.

Re: Gene Michael Yankeeography

All that's very interesting to me. Actually it's fascinating.
I'm sure you read or saw "The Bronx is Burning".
Billy had to put up with horrendous treatment from Steinbrenner. Michael wouldn't do it. I'm glad he made that clear.

Billy for whatever reason toughed it out. I'm not taking Michael's contributions to the Yankees lightly. I'm not going to kick Billy to the curb, but your right about his # being retired. It's a bit over the top.

76-78 3 straight pennants and back to back WSC.....winning 100 games both championship years even though he burned out in 1978. He was back in parts of 1979, 85 and 88,
Tenacious and crazy.
Both played seven years with the Yankees and surprisingly to me, is that they had similar stats as I thought Martin to be a better hitter than Michael. He was, but not by much.

Billy's contribution were driven by the media hype while the Stick's were behind the seen.
Thanks for the clarification. Gene Micheal needs to write a book, if he already hasn't.

Re: Gene Michael Yankeeography

Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421

Personally, I think Martin is vastly overrated, at least insofar as what he did as Yankee manager, and insofar as having a plaque.

He's sort of credited with turning the Yankees around in 1976 and yet that was a really good team (albeit lacking a true cleanup hitter). He wins in 1977 with a team that was pretty well loaded and then can't even hold it together to get through 1978 with a team that had added Gossage.

He goes onto the A's and was credited with the 'Billyball' stuff, and yet he had Rickey freaking Henderson on that team and played in a cavernous stadium (who wouldn't run a lot with them?) and destroyed three of his pitchers.

Martin was basically like a steroid injection. Got fast and sometimes unnatural results but long term everything breaks down.

I think it was in 1987, he sent Pagliarulo up to hit right handed as a means of showing up the front office. That was really it for me with Billy Martin.

Gossage said in his book that Martin told him to intentionally bean Billy Sample in the head in a spring training game (and used a racial slur as part of the directive). Gossage was like, "I can't do that, Billy. I'm not hitting the guy in the head. I could kill him."

Martin took that as disloyal and nearly destroyed Gossage's first year with the Yankees in the process.

I'm going to give Martin a little more credit than you do for what he was able to do, overrated as it might have been. The steroids analogy is an excellent one: if you wanted your team's record to improve enormously and immediately, for a year or two, without regard to long-term consequences, Martin was your man.

Yes, the 1976 Yankees were a good team, and maybe anyone would have won with them, but we'll never know. We just know that Martin did; it worked. As for 1978, I don't think it's quite fair to assign the first-half swoon to Martin and the comeback to Lemon. They had won five in a row when Martin got himself fired, and they went 7-7 right after that. The most significant change was probably the return of Catfish Hunter, who looked washed up in the first half, then came back with a spectacular stretch run after his shoulder was manipulated.

In Oakland, yeah, he had Rickey Henderson. But he also knew what to do with Rickey Henderson, where a manager like Girardi or Torre might be reluctant to play him, much less give him the freedom to play his own game.

As for pitchers...the A's staff was the most spectacular, but Martin left a trail of shredded young arms wherever he managed. He always rode a few pitchers mercilessly, with great immediate results. The older, battle-tested pitchers survived it - Jim Kaat, Jim Perry, Mickey Lolich, Fergie Jenkins. But Dave Bosman, Joe Coleman, Ed Figueroa, and the whole A's staff (Langford, Norris, Keough, McCatty) were a different story. Guidry's career consisted of spectacular performances under Martin, mediocre ones under everyone else; the question is whether Martin brought out the best in him or left his arm wrung out for the other managers.

Martin was a mean, spiteful, vicious, alcoholic little bastard, and his racism was just part of that. If he used a racial slur, well, it was probably the only word he knew to use.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.