Answering a reasonable atheist on deep philosophical questions

Published: 30 September 2012 (GMT+10)

To demonstrate that not all of our opponents are hostile and unreasonable, we publish a two-part feedback by Tim W. of the USA. He first responded to
Answering the ‘new atheists’ (interview with Doug Wilson). In this, he sought to defend the proposition that atheism can provide
meaning and purpose. Tim W.’s email is printed in its entirety, then followed by point-by-point responses by Dr Jonathan Sarfati. Then in
Part 2, he argues against CMI’s view that morality must be based on theistic religion. Once again, Tim W.’s email is posted alone first, then
with responses.

Wikipedia.org

Socrates

This is an interesting article. I think you are on the right track when you suggest that modern atheists are worried at the resurgence of conservative Christianity in the United States.
Frankly, it concerns me that so many politicians have anti-abortion views with which I strongly disagree. Part of my moral beliefs value limited rights of women to choose the fate of
their unfertilized eggs, embryos and their own bodies. Similarly, I understand that Christians have legitimate reason to be concerned that unbelievers will influence a policy or social
climate that permits the destruction of actual or potential human organisms. The stakes are high so it should be no surprise that the voices of atheism rise to compete with the voices
of religion.

I also agree with the author, and with Hume, that one cannot infer what ought to be, in a normative sense, from what is, was or will be the case. In this way, it is reasonable to say that
naturalism or ‘scientism’ cannot suggest a specific theory or morality. However, that does not mean that morality is not compatible with materialism, naturalism or atheism.
It only means that morality must come from philosophy (ethics) rather than from theology. There is no reason why an atheist cannot have a more sophisticated ‘sense’ or
theory of morality than someone who bases their beliefs of right and wrong conduct(or thoughts) on the teachings of a formal religion. My own beliefs are more consistent with a general
sense of basic ‘fairness,’ than obedience to the demands of a deity.

Lastly, I don’t understand the basis of a statement such as “The atheist cannot put forward, within his own framework, a justification for why reasoning is trustworthy, or
even worthwhile,” or “the atheist can’t account for reason if there is no God.” These are philosophical questions that do not seem to be contingent on the
existence of a God. Is reasoning trustworthy? Meaningful? Those are matters of epistemology, not theology. Moreover, I think it is far from obvious that neither life, nor anything
else for that matter, can have meaning unless one believes in God. God may give your life meaning, but that does not mean that nothing can provide meaning for an atheist’s life.
I can imagine an atheist saying her daughter, for example, gives her life meaning. Would you call her a liar?

Response

TW: I think you are on the right track when you suggest that modern atheists are worried at the resurgence of conservative Christianity in the United
States.

JS: What is really striking is how many modern atheists have become such delicate little flowers. They are hurt and offended by plastic baby Jesuses at Nativity
scenes and are in danger of having a stroke if they hear a student-led prayer at a football game. (But of course, anyone objecting to obscenity or porn should just look the other way
or change channels.) Even leading atheistRichard Dawkins is not such a wimp; he joins in Christmas
celebrations. What a contrast the modern activists are with the far more robust atheists of yesteryear who vigorously debated the formidable
G.K. Chesterton, and remained good friends even after finishing second.

TW: Frankly, it concerns me that so many politicians have anti-abortion views with which I strongly disagree.

TW: Part of my moral beliefs value limited rights of women to choose the fate of their unfertilized eggs, embryos and their own bodies.

JS: Well, there’s the problem: the unborn is not part of a woman’s body. A
reductio ad absurdum I’ve explained is: this would entail that a mother carrying a son must
have a penis.

TW: Similarly, I understand that Christians have legitimate reason to be concerned that unbelievers will influence a policy or social climate that permits the
destruction of actual or potential human organisms.

JS: Yes, that’s exactly the issue. Without the protection of life, no other right, real or assumed, has any meaning. ‘Rights’ to private property,
housing, employment, medical care, or anything else, mean nothing if one is not alive to exercise them.

TW: The stakes are high so it should be no surprise that the voices of atheism rise to compete with the voices of religion.

JS: The problem arises when voices of atheism try to silence the voices of Christianity. This includes university ‘speech codes’, ‘hate speech’,
the persecution of Christians in atheistic communist regimes, and the attacks of the homosexual lobby on the Church and family. See Gay
marriage, politicians, and the rights of Christians.

TW: I also agree with the author, and with Hume, that one cannot infer what ought to be, in a normative sense, from what is, was or will be the case.

JS: A key point.

TW: In this way, it is reasonable to say that naturalism or ‘scientism’ cannot suggest a specific theory or morality. However, that does not mean that morality
is not compatible with materialism, naturalism or atheism. It only means that morality must come from philosophy (ethics) rather than from theology.

JS: It certainly can’t come from the axiom ‘God does not exist.’

TW: There is no reason why an atheist cannot have a more sophisticated ‘sense’ or theory of morality than someone who bases their beliefs of right and wrong
conduct(or thoughts) on the teachings of a formal religion. My own beliefs are more consistent with a general sense of basic ‘fairness’, than obedience to the demands of a
deity.

But where does the notion of ‘fairness’ come from in an evolutionary world? Surely it’s just a delusion caused by certain neurochemical activity that happened to
be useful for our ancestors to survive. Just like rape was useful to spread our genes, as two evolutionists seriously argued in a book.

JS: But where does the notion of ‘fairness’ come from in an evolutionary world? Surely it’s just a delusion caused by certain neurochemical
activity that happened to be useful for our ancestors to survive. Just like rape was useful to spread our genes, as two evolutionists seriously argued in a book (look how
one squirmed to justify why rape should be considered ‘wrong’). Similarly, the article
Bomb-building vs the biblical foundation documents how leading atheistic philosopher/logician Bertrand Russell
could not explain why right vs. wrong was any different from choosing one’s favourite colours.

TW: Lastly, I don’t understand the basis of a statement such as “The atheist cannot put forward, within his own framework, a justification for why reasoning
is trustworthy, or even worthwhile,” or “the atheist can’t account for reason if there is no God.” These are philosophical questions that do not seem to be
contingent on the existence of a God.

JS: But they are. Natural selection explains only survival value, not truth and logic. In Canada, one atheistic philosophy professor argued that these things
would have selective value. I responded that this is not necessarily so under his belief system. After all, he must regard theistic religion as one thing that evolved for survival value,
yet he would regard this as false and illogical. Thus survival, under his perspective, can be enhanced by the false as well as the true.

TW: Is reasoning trustworthy? Meaningful? Those are matters of epistemology, not theology. Moreover, I think it is far from obvious that neither life, nor anything else
for that matter, can have meaning unless one believes in God. God may give your life meaning, but that does not mean that nothing can provide meaning for an atheist’s
life.

Today we are effectively told, in the evolutionary story, that life is a fluke, a cosmic accident. In this case our existence lacks any purpose, so life is a farce. And where are we going,
in this view? Fertilizer! In short, life is: Fluke … farce … fertilizer.

Evolutionist Richard Dawkins said that we live in a universe that has “no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference”. The evolutionists’
universe has no purpose because it is an accident; a cosmic accident. With evolution so widely taught in schools and universities, is it any wonder that so many lack any purpose or
meaning to their lives?

As Susan Blackmore, psychologist and disciple of Richard Dawkins said, “If you really think about evolution and why we human beings are here, you have to come to the conclusion
that we are here for absolutely no reason at all.”

TW: I can imagine an atheist saying her daughter, for example, gives her life meaning.

JS: But hardly ultimate meaning, since both mother’s and daughter’s entire lives are just a blink of an eye in the uniformitarian cosmic scheme.
Bertrand Russell said in his anti-Christian book Religion and Science:

Man, as a curious accident in a backwater, is intelligible: his mixture of virtues and vices is such as might be expected to result from fortuitous origin.

Intermezzo

Let me first say that I am impressed by the scholarship and sophistication evident in the articles and comments of Dr Sarfati. I think if more creationists displayed anything remotely
comparable to this level of sophistication, Dawkins would be more willing to engage creationists in formal debates. I also praise your objective to educate those who would defend your
view against common arguments of atheists. It’s a waste of everyone’s time when people advance weak or false ‘arguments’ in support of their positions, or use
distracting rhetoric, fallacies or other offenses to critical thinking and discourse. I also appreciate the links provided in your response to my comments. They allow me to save space
here by discussing some issues in a more appropriate context. In my following post, I would like to focus on the common claim that morality must be based on religion.

Part 2: morality and atheism

Wikimedia Commons

Immanuel Kant

It is a common claim that morality, and the idea of ‘goodness’, only makes sense in the context of religion. I would argue that this is (1) not a premise that is so self-evident
that it can be treated as an axiom in itself, and (2) not logically supportable, and simply incorrect without defining morality in narrowly religious terms, in which case you are simply
making a circular argument, or postulating Christianity as an axiom. That is hardly an effective way to argue against claims made by atheists or other unbelievers.

To refute these claims, I need only point out that there are in fact other ways of defining ‘good’ consequences, motivations or conduct, in a normative moral theory. One cannot
define morality in terms that everyone can agree, but I would say most satisfactory moral theories aim to protect or promote the interests of members of the moral community, based on
consequences and/or non-arbitrary, rule-like principles such that to do otherwise would be to behave improperly in some meaningful way. Certainly one way is to treat Christianity as an
axiom, and define goodness in terms of God’s nature or commands, but the fact is that there are many other options. For example, even Kant, who did believe in God, based his morality
on moral ‘imperatives’ based on reason. Indeed, few philosophers worth reading would argue that goodness is dependent on religion. In ‘Religion and the Queerness of
Morality’, George Mavrodes takes a stab at this in his response to Russell’s ‘A Free Man’s Worship’. In my opinion, his argument fails miserably.

Another way to argue against the claim that ‘goodness’ is based on God, is to consider the challenge based on Plato’s Euthyphro’s Dilemma. I do not want to get
into the details of that, but the reader can find a good discussion of it
here: You could argue that this is a false dilemma because there is a
third possibility, but even if such a third possibility is acceptable, it merely defends Christianity from this substantial criticism. It does nothing to support the false claim that the
standards of ‘goodness’ can only be defined, or understood, in terms of religion.

Response to part 2

It is a common claim that morality, and the idea of ‘goodness’, only makes sense in the context of religion. I would argue that this is (1) not a premise that is so
self-evident that it can be treated as an axiom in itself, and (2) not logically supportable, and simply incorrect without defining morality in narrowly religious terms, in which case you
are simply making a circular argument, or postulating Christianity as an axiom.

The biblical Judeo-Christian position goes further because it defines some acts as intrinsically immoral. Also, because it doesn’t just consider this life but the life to come,
it regards it as worse to inflict harm than to suffer harm.

That is hardly an effective way to argue against claims made by atheists or other unbelievers.

To refute these claims, I need only point out that there are in fact other ways of defining ‘good’ consequences, motivations or conduct, in a normative moral
theory.

It’s a fairly standard view in Christian ethics to look at these aspects. The error of many other positions is that they unduly restrict their ethical analysis to only one of these.
E.g. utilitarianism considers only the consequences. Many flawed political policies err by considering only lofty goals and intentions, not the incentives and results that
inevitably follow from people following these incentives. Economist and political theorist Dr Thomas Sowell argues this well,1
explaining elsewhere:

Wikimedia/Bungle

Auschwitz—site of the German concentration camps

“I’d like to get them to think in terms of incentives and empirical evidence, and not in terms of goals and hopes. Over the years, I’ve reached the point where I can hardly
bear to read the preamble of proposed legislation. I don’t care what you think this thing is going to do. What I care about is: What are you rewarding, and what are you punishing?
Because you’re going to get more of what you’re rewarding and less of what you’re punishing.” 2

The biblical Judeo-Christian position goes further because it defines some acts as intrinsically immoral. Also, because it doesn’t just consider this life but the life to come,
it regards it as worse to inflict harm than to suffer harm. This is not talking about legitimate self-defence or the right of a civil ruler or soldier to use force, even
lethal (Romans 13). Rather, it’s a case like: a sadistic Nazi SS
Commandant during WW2 puts a pistol into the hand of a Jewish prisoner in the death camps, and tells him to shoot another Jewish prisoner or be shot himself. In this case, the
Judeo-Christian ethic would tell the first Jew not to commit murder, even if it means that he is himself murdered by the Nazi.

One cannot define morality in terms that everyone can agree, but I would say most satisfactory moral theories aim to protect or promote the interests of
members of the moral community, based on consequences and/or non-arbitrary, rule-like principles such that to do otherwise would be to behave improperly in some meaningful way.

The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard
more nearly than the other.—C.S. Lewis

All the same, Hitler argued that his horrendous eugenics and genocide program would benefit the German ‘master race’. I.e. gross immorality can be defended by defining
certain people out of the ‘moral community’. This was a problem at the Nuremberg trials—many of the Nazi defendants argued that they were following the laws of their
country. The prosecutors argued that they were breaking a higher law, but whence this law? C.S. Lewis pointed out:

The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more
nearly than the other.3

Certainly one way is to treat Christianity as an axiom, and define goodness in terms of God’s nature or commands, but the fact is that there are many other options. For example,
even Kant, who did believe in God, based his morality on moral ‘imperatives’ based on reason.

wikipedia.org: Photo by Arthur Strong

C.S. Lewis

Right, Kant’s famous ‘categorical imperative’, which for the benefit of our readers is on the lines of:

Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

Actually Kant was a strong proponent of the moral argument for God, declaring:

Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, … the starry heavens above me and the moral law within
me.4

He argued that an objective and absolute moral law required an objective and absolute moral Lawgiver. He argued also that humans ought to achieve the highest good possible
(Summum bonum), where virtue is rewarded justly. And because he famously argued ‘Ought implied can’, the Summum bonum must also be possible:

For if the moral law commands that we ought to be better human beings now, it inescapably follows that we must be capable of being better human
beings.5

And since virtue was not always rewarded in this life, there must be an afterlife where this does happen. And this requires a God to create this afterlife.

There is a lot of truth to Kant’s reasoning. The extremely wise King Solomon, near the end of a very unwise life, had observed how all the pleasures of life were ultimately
meaningless because people die. Even good people meet the same fate as bad ones
(Ecclesiastes 9). So he concluded
(Ecclesiastes 12:13–14):

Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, … the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me.—Immanuel Kant

“Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including
every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”

“Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in that of another, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means.”

As we have often argued, this makes sense under a biblical framework of man being made in the image of God. But why should man be regarded as an end in itself if the human body is
just a survival machine whose end is to propagate genes (as per Dawkins)? I.e., why not rape, since as two evolutionists argued, this helps men to spread genes.

Indeed, few philosophers worth reading would argue that goodness is dependent on religion. In ‘Religion and the Queerness of Morality’, George Mavrodes takes a stab at
this in his response to Russell’s ‘A Free Man’s Worship’. In my opinion, his argument fails miserably.

Mavrodes is one of the leading thinkers in this area, certainly—pity about his theistic evolutionism; he appears not to deal with the great problems with this belief.

God indeed commands things which are good, but the reason they are good is because they reflect God’s own nature. So the goodness does not come ultimately from God’s
commandments, but from His nature, which then results in good commandments.

Another way to argue against the claim that ‘goodness’ is based on God, is to consider the challenge based on Plato’s Euthyphro’s Dilemma. I do not want to
get into the details of that, but the reader can find a good discussion of it
here.

You could argue that this is a false dilemma because there is a third possibility, but even if such a third possibility is acceptable, it merely defends Christianity from this
substantial criticism. It does nothing to support the false claim that the standards of ‘goodness’ can only be defined, or understood, in terms of religion.

Well, as I said in the above article:

God indeed commands things which are good, but the reason they are good is because they reflect God’s own nature. So the goodness does not come ultimately from
God’s commandments, but from His nature, which then results in good commandments.

The ‘new atheists’ claim that Christianity doesn’t have answers to evolution. This site begs to differ, with over 8,000 fully searchable articles—many of them science-based. Help us keep refuting the skeptics. Support this site

This line interests me “… most satisfactory moral theories aim to protect or promote the interests of members of the moral community, …” With this, it comes into my mind the word “law”. Here is a question, what makes you think that there will be no one who will want to become the “law” at any costs, with any methods?. Considering the word “community”, it comes into my mind the word “democracy”. I notice that with this system, sometimes something that is considered fair (by majority/winning vote), is not necessarily fair for the minority. Sometimes, it is even the opposite. So, what would prevent this minority from wanting to “become the law” by using any methods?. I do not think that there is a good reason for self sacrifice without God. After all, without God, there is no life after death, why not “legalise” any methods for our own pleasures and advantages? we will die any way whether we follow the “law” or not. Why should we self sacrifice for someone else’s pleasure, and not our own? Just want to put a few things for thought and not making a full page article, so, I will stop here. Thank you.

Jonathan Sarfati responds

Indeed, the American founders realized the dangers of pure democracy, since this could lead to tyranny of the majority without checks and balances. Indeed, in many middle-eastern countries, ‘democracy’ means ten Muslims and one Christian voting on who is to be murdered or whose religious building is to be destroyed.

RS: whilst I cannot 100% speak for him (as clearly I am not him) his general reason is that there is no point in debating with the religious persons on topics of science such as evolution as he does not want to put religion on the same level as science which is quite noble.

“I’ve been recently appointed to a committee to assess professorial nominations in the design field. The prerequisites include 100 published papers on design, and at least one proven design innovation that’s been picked up and utilized successfully in the real world for at least a few years. Dawkins hasn’t ever published a single peer-reviewed paper on design, and in fact has never even so much as designed a door handle—and if he did, I wouldn’t want to trust it.”

RS: Science is a process of evidence whilst religion (including christianity, islam, hinduism, judaism, paganism etc...) is a process of faith and the two are complete opposites.

Man’s conduct (morality being the measure of good conduct) is relative. It is based on a selected standard which is often a product of experience. Whether that conduct be good or bad, it is based on a selected ‘norm’, a standard. The choice of that standard belongs to man but the standard does NOT; it is external otherwise it would not be a standard. If you want to find a pure morality (pure good) you would have to have an image of something that represents that pure good. In my estimation, only One fits that bill and that is Jesus Christ.

Bruce B.,United Kingdom, 2 October 2012

This has been a fascinating and very informative discussion and I would like to thank Tim W. for the courtesy and respect with which he writes. It’s unusual and a pleasant change!

May I make two points, both of which were picked up by Jonathan. One is that Richard Dawkins actually avoids debating with intellectual equals such as Jonathan S.—and there are many of them, too many to mention here. He doesn’t lack competent opposition so much as he avoids it.

The second point is really the elephant in the room. If there is no one unassailable standard by which morality can be measured, i.e. God, then there can never be an over-arching morality to which all subscribe. Tim W. and his friends may be very happily ensconced in their own moral structure which they’ve erected but it may be of little defence against another group of a different moral persuasion who are also violently opposed to anyone who disagrees with them.

Sorry Tim, your arguments sound good but they really lack substance. I hope that Jonathan’s answers have helped you to see things differently.

Michael S.,United Kingdom, 1 October 2012

Personally I find the whole construction of the argument from morality, to be a house of cards, mind-phlegm, mental gymnastics. As Dr Sarfati et al. have established ad nauseum and to their credit, the argument from relative morality collapses because of its very premises.

It’s just a diversion. The fact is that anyone can be moral, whether they are an atheist or not but that does not have anything to do with indwelling sin.

See what they were doing? They were saying moral proclamations (words) made them moral, and that my words made me immoral but their actions were actually sinful. They lied, insulted and bullied, while being ‘moral’. Meanwhile, I told the truth, treated them with respect and done no harm yet I was deemed and judged to be, ‘immoral’.

…

It was deemed by Pliny the Younger, that torturing and murdering Christians was, ‘moral’. I read the correspondence between Pliny and his ‘boss’, they were both very noble, moral atheists, who sinned terribly! Why don’t atheists act like this today? Because the grew up in a different time, that is the only reason.

Susan W.,United States, 1 October 2012

I love your rebuttal. I have long wondered if there are any humble atheists. It always amazes me that atheists think they can rationalize and understand everything. How do they not see that they are worshiping themselves? How can they be so arrogant to think that their particluar brain, their body, their life experiences are so incredibly superior that they are capable of understanding and explaining everything? Can an atheist explain real love, not just physical desire and egotistical pleasure, but patience, kindness, and meekness as described in 1 Corinthians 13? I pray for this atheist’s mind to be open and receptive to the fine message you presented. I pray they find the peace that is beyond human understanding which comes through accepting Jesus as their savior. Thank you so much for all you do at CMI, you are in my prayers with much thanksgiving!

Josef L.,United States, 30 September 2012

I totally agree with Dr Sarfati in that Richard Dawkins picks opponents he thinks he can just steamroll right over in a debate; in other words, the more intelligent the Christian/creationist, the less likely Dawkins would be to debate him.

There is a pretty popular video on Youtube where Dawkins is asked why he won’t do a one-on-one debate with William Lane Craig. And Dawkins’ response was that he won’t debate Christian apologists or creationists, but instead has an open invitation to debate Bishops and other types of lay-level church leaders. Basically Dawkins is admitting that he doesn’t dare debate people who can put forth a solid argument.

Jonathan M.,Canada, 30 September 2012

«So the goodness does not come ultimately from God’s commandments, but from His nature, which then results in good commandments.»—Excellent

This answers a major dilemma for many people. Too often Christians simply say that we must just believe that God is, by definition, good. Nothing he does could ever be wrong because he is God. This stinks in the nose of normal decency. We could all imagine gods in ancient mythology that we can all be glad don’t exist—their version of ‘good’ is anything but. If God were like these gods, it would seem that we would be morally justified in rebelling against them, even if all we had to base our rebellion on was a loose, subjective sense of right and wrong. So atheists do have a point in saying that a degree of right and wrong must somehow be self-evident—derived from the very nature of existence and our experience of how we like being treated. However, without a revealed moral law, we would forever grope in the dark in our search of true righteousness, vaguely feeling it, but never knowing it as it truly is. The Christian has a better answer. We know that God is righteous, not because he is God, but because He showed us that He is, through Jesus Christ. Therefore commandments and revelations from God can be trusted as truly Good—the same type of goodness we saw in Jesus.

R. R.,United States, 30 September 2012

Very nice discussion. Perhaps more atheists will at least learn something from Tim W.’s behavior here. That way, logical and reasoned discussions can actually get somewhere.

Jack C.,Australia, 29 September 2012

Very good article. It certainly demonstrates the fact that without a law giver (i.e., God) all matters of morality, ethics, good and evil become a matter of opinion. Even if a philosophy as proposed by an atheist is to replace God, whose philosophy are we to adopt? There are any number of philosophies to choose from. We can’t have one philosophy above all the rest since there is no one of authority that can make such a judgement if God doesn't exist. In a strange sort of way, philosophical atheists (redundant term?) actually demonstrate better than other types of atheists how it’s much more plausible to believe in a God of ultimate authority.