Geronimo you are correct when you say score one more run than your opponent. Quite a revelation.

However, offensively, at the moment, the Indians don't have the talent to do that consistently over a 162 game schedule. Otherwise, they would have contended last year in their division instead of 15 games out and a record less than 500. Or did you forget that?

Why did the Indians target a run producer over the winter. They missed out on Beltran, Lee, and tried to trade for Nick Swisher. Defend their actions? They signed Sizemore and Damon in attempt to catch lighting in a bottle. Desperation has set in. I suppose you actually believe Duncan can be the answer for us?

Tell you what, you take the team that scores 730 runs this season, I'll take the one that scores 835+. The team scoring more runs will WIN more games. Would you like to make a wager?

Reality is that the Rays made the play-offs with scoring 707 runs. Getting to the play-offs is all that can happen by scoring a lot of runs or getting good pitching and scoring just enough runs to win 90+ games (that should get us there). After that, the play=off winners are really a team that demonstrates the best mental toughness (i.e. the Cardinals last year - they weren't the best team but they won the games that counted). Scoring a lot of runs does help. This team does need improved hitting (everyone wants that).

at what point do we send ubaldo to az like we did with fausto and see if we can re-build his delivery? He's our worst starter, i'd rather have zmac up here giving us a chance to win at least every 5th day.

go_tribe wrote:at what point do we send ubaldo to az like we did with fausto and see if we can re-build his delivery? He's our worst starter, i'd rather have zmac up here giving us a chance to win at least every 5th day.

Ubaldo is out of options unlike Carmona (according to the chart on this site at least, which i believe is right), so you can't send him to AZ. Heading into today, he was actually our 2nd best starter (by ERA at least).

go_tribe wrote:at what point do we send ubaldo to az like we did with fausto and see if we can re-build his delivery? He's our worst starter, i'd rather have zmac up here giving us a chance to win at least every 5th day.

Can't send him to Arizona or the minors....he is out of options, but that is insignificant as he has more than 3 years of ST so would have to go on waivers before being sent to the minors. Carmona had an option left and less than 3 years service time when he was optioned out in 2009....so why it is completely different scenario.

go_tribe wrote:at what point do we send ubaldo to az like we did with fausto and see if we can re-build his delivery? He's our worst starter, i'd rather have zmac up here giving us a chance to win at least every 5th day.

Can't send him to Arizona or the minors....he is out of options, but that is insignificant as he has more than 3 years of ST so would have to go on waivers before being sent to the minors. Carmona had an option left and less than 3 years service time when he was optioned out in 2009....so why it is completely different scenario.

Thanks for the insight, hopefully he turns it around as the season progresses then

A baseball season is a marathon. We are seeing Ubaldo transistion from being a flame thrower to learning how to pitch.His stuff is above average, he's improving and gaining confidence. Moving forward is what it is all about.

...However, offensively, at the moment, the Indians don't have the talent to do that consistently over a 162 game schedule. Otherwise, they would have contended last year in their division instead of 15 games out and a record less than 500. Or did you forget that?...

The talent that is on this team is more than enough to compete with anyone.. The talent that WAS on the field from mid July onward through September wasn't the same group. Take away your lead off, # 3, # 4, & # 5, hitters, respectively, and the same kind of production just doesn't happen.. or did YOU forget that?

...However, offensively, at the moment, the Indians don't have the talent to do that consistently over a 162 game schedule. Otherwise, they would have contended last year in their division instead of 15 games out and a record less than 500. Or did you forget that?...

The talent that is on this team is more than enough to compete with anyone.. The talent that WAS on the field from mid July onward through September wasn't the same group. Take away your lead off, # 3, # 4, & # 5, hitters, respectively, and the same kind of production just doesn't happen.. or did YOU forget that?

It is enough to compete but I think you are too optimistic with the phrase "more than enough". Our 1B is offensively challenged, we have a weakness in LF, no RH hitter that will make an opposing manager alter his game plan. We can compete but imo, we are still the underdog to win our division.

ironmike wrote:More progress for Ubaldo. Yes, his BB - K ratio is out of whack, but he along with his team beat the Tigers. He did his job, again.

Like everyone else that posts on this board or watches the games.. seeing Ubaldo go deep into games, 6 innings or more, reduce the number of pitches thrown per inning pitched (too many starts where he approaches 100 pitches by the fifth inning), keep his team in the mix for the win (all but the Boston game this season), and reduce his walk totals.

If he does this, he'll be okay.. more okay than the combined 0-7 record with a 'high fours' ERA of Alex White and Drew Pomeranz for the Rockies. The comment that the Indians traded away their two most promising pitching prospects (actually it was three when you include Joe Gardner) for Ubaldo hasn't included White & Pom's current stats..which would be considered abysmal by any measure...

Chances are Pomeranz and White / Gardner will be productive ML players, but not in the window the Indians have been targeting with their current team.

Ubaldo was a big move, would like to see more of the same by Antonetti.

Winning is the only thing that will put fans in the seats, doesn't matter what their age is, race or color or who our minor league prospects are.

Baseball teams at the MLB level are only defined by one thing, how many games they win each season. Playoffs at all costs year in and year out, eventually a team will get lucky, have the breaks go their way and win it all. We need to get in the playoffs each year at any cost and a championship will happen.

So far, this is the concept being adopted by Chris Antonetti and it is refreshing. We should not be afraid to move young players provided they are used as tools to win. Expecting another blockbuster by the deadline to improve the roster.

ironmike wrote:Chances are Pomeranz and White / Gardner will be productive ML players, but not in the window the Indians have been targeting with their current team.

Ubaldo was a big move, would like to see more of the same by Antonetti.

Winning is the only thing that will put fans in the seats, doesn't matter what their age is, race or color or who our minor league prospects are.

Baseball teams at the MLB level are only defined by one thing, how many games they win each season. Playoffs at all costs year in and year out, eventually a team will get lucky, have the breaks go their way and win it all. We need to get in the playoffs each year at any cost and a championship will happen.

So far, this is the concept being adopted by Chris Antonetti and it is refreshing. We should not be afraid to move young players provided they are used as tools to win. Expecting another blockbuster by the deadline to improve the roster.

Productive is a good thing.

Impactful is what the Indians are in dire need of. Ubaldo was (past tense) impactful during the 2009/10 seasons. He's not been able to repeat that kind of performance since. Perhaps it's mechanics..perhaps not. Perhaps Rads and Ubaldo will work out the problems with him returning to being that F.O.R. ACE of the Staff during the course of the season?. It's unlikely, but, it's baseball, so anything is possible. What the Indians had in Pomeranz and White and Gardner, we'll never know. Their performance to date has shown nothing that would be considered impactful. Pomeranz has performed poorly at the ML level for the Rockies, but, has been devastating at the MiLB level. He's still pretty young at this point.. and may just need a bit more time.. Alex White got his first "W" of the season for the Rockies last night in a six inning four runs allowed effort. The Rockies out slugged the Marlins for the win. Perhaps it's something White can build on.. Joe Gardner is getting his brains "beat in" pitching for the Rockies Tulsa Drillers AA club in the Texas League. In 8 starts covering 38 IP (4 3/4 IP/start), he's given up 24 earned runs, 50 hits, 4 homers while the opposition is batting .305 against him. OUCH..

Regarding your hope for a trade... Will a trade be made between now and the trading deadline?. It's possible. Historically, trade deadline deals are looked at, discussed, rumored, floated, etc... after the June Entry Draft. The draft is less than two weeks away, so, push is coming to shove on that front.

The only rumor that's been floated concerned Kevin Youkilis of the Red Sox. The reason for the discussion appears to be more involved with the Red Sox "glut" of corner infielders than a desire by the Indians and Red Sox to make a trade to fix what's broken. It's not unusual for the Red Sox to want to throw out the old when their new shiny toy, Will Middlebrooks, is the darling of the town.. Fickle and Foolish, but, that's Red Sox Nation for you..

The guy who pitched against us yesterday for the White Sox was awful too ... ditto Peavey.

Fix the offense, plus Masterson went through it, Verlander too a few years ago, Lowe on Saturday, Jimenez will figure it out if he's not having arm issue. He has terrific movement on all of his pitches. As I've posted before the Indians need to be very, very careful about giving up on any one at this time.

I keep remembering watching Louie Tiant pitch for the Red Sox and Yankees after he won 20 games for the Indians one year and lost 21 for them the next. Lots of other examples too. If Ubaldo is healthy stay with him, that is what smart baseball people do.

What is so troubling about ubaldo is that he failed to stop a losing streak and looked really bad doing it. This happened last year especially against detroit. Ubaldo is a confidence killer for this team because he is supposed to be the stopper. The guy that we traded for last year was supposed to stabilize the rotation and give us 2 really good pitchers at the top of our rotation. He has had the opposite effect.

This has a domino effect on the rest of the team because the offense feels pressured to produce every time because they know any lead isn't going to hold up.

This trade has turned out as bad as can be. Ubaldo is at best a #5 pitcher right now. Its pathetic when we get excited that he only gave up 3 runs in 6 innings. that is what this trade has netted us. Once again, shapiro and antonetti's talent evaluation was wrong.

When you trade your top 2 pitching prospects , you better be getting a roy halladay or cliff lee type pitcher, not another fausto carmona

Lots of hype in those two prospects. We have two pitchers in our rotation who are contributing that were not even on the radar in Tomlin and Gomez. Manny Acta and Tim Belcher liked these guys, I'd be aware of what their opinions are. They are the only ones that really count.

Careful what you read about prospects. Pomeranz may or may not ever materialize, ditto White.

Indians need to win at the ML level, draft well and things will work out. What we are painfully feeling now is 10 years of poor drafting under the Shapiro regime. There is a great story there is someone would has the balls to write it objectively.

What really sucks is that they put up with mirabelli's drafting for so long. Brad Grant has been better but not great either.

We have invested a lot of money in prospects that were over slot and not any have paid off. guys like lavisky, fedroff, tj house, bryce stowell (still has a chance), tony wolters, lavon washington (can't stay healthy),

chisenhall- there has to be many questions about him. I am starting to see him like a cord phelps type than an impact 3B.

Jason Kipnis- was a hit- and really is the only draft pick that has a chance to be special.

Pomeranz/white- whether those guys pan out or not, we had assets to get a really good player and the FO blew it. If they were scared off by white's injury or pomeranz not being ready yet- ubaldo has failed to do what he was brought over here to do. He was supposed to help them win now. He was not supposed to be a project.

I am so frustrated by the outcome of this trade, because i root harder for this team more than the browns or cavs, and this trade i think is going to decimate the organization and set them back at least 3 years. I want them to win and compete for the playoffs, but i think we are getting a big enough sample size to know that ubaldo is not the difference maker that we hoped for.

indians1 wrote:What really sucks is that they put up with mirabelli's drafting for so long. Brad Grant has been better but not great either.

We have invested a lot of money in prospects that were over slot and not any have paid off. guys like lavisky, fedroff, tj house, bryce stowell (still has a chance), tony wolters, lavon washington (can't stay healthy),

chisenhall- there has to be many questions about him. I am starting to see him like a cord phelps type than an impact 3B.

Jason Kipnis- was a hit- and really is the only draft pick that has a chance to be special.

Pomeranz/white- whether those guys pan out or not, we had assets to get a really good player and the FO blew it. If they were scared off by white's injury or pomeranz not being ready yet- ubaldo has failed to do what he was brought over here to do. He was supposed to help them win now. He was not supposed to be a project.

I am so frustrated by the outcome of this trade, because i root harder for this team more than the browns or cavs, and this trade i think is going to decimate the organization and set them back at least 3 years. I want them to win and compete for the playoffs, but i think we are getting a big enough sample size to know that ubaldo is not the difference maker that we hoped for.

Wow.. what a whiner...

The list of players that haven't panned out; lavisky, fedroff, tj house, bryce stowell, tony wolters, lavon washington have an average of less than two years service in the Indians organization.. Indians#1whiner, Give it a break..

Chisenhall is a 23 year old with 220 ML at bats.. he's not Cord Phelps or whatever inane reference you are alluding to..

The organization isn't being decimated.

The organization isn't set back three years or more..

Being in first place.. alone or tied now for 34 consecutive days.. That's SIGNIFICANT...

Indians have no choice but to continue to have Jimenez start. Can't send him to the minors (unless DFAing him and he clears waivers). I guess they could send him to the bullpen, but I have to believe that would be a PR disaster as it is already one after not living up to a trade that is not even 10 months old. The guy has been one of the top 3-5 worst pitchers in baseball this season. Sure, the stuff is there....but nothing else is there to make it work consistently. Guy is an absolute train wreck. I applaud Antonetti for having the balls to make the deal, but he just blew our limited high value assets on damaged goods.

indians1 wrote:What really sucks is that they put up with mirabelli's drafting for so long. Brad Grant has been better but not great either.

We have invested a lot of money in prospects that were over slot and not any have paid off. guys like lavisky, fedroff, tj house, bryce stowell (still has a chance), tony wolters, lavon washington (can't stay healthy),

chisenhall- there has to be many questions about him. I am starting to see him like a cord phelps type than an impact 3B.

Jason Kipnis- was a hit- and really is the only draft pick that has a chance to be special.

Pomeranz/white- whether those guys pan out or not, we had assets to get a really good player and the FO blew it. If they were scared off by white's injury or pomeranz not being ready yet- ubaldo has failed to do what he was brought over here to do. He was supposed to help them win now. He was not supposed to be a project.

I am so frustrated by the outcome of this trade, because i root harder for this team more than the browns or cavs, and this trade i think is going to decimate the organization and set them back at least 3 years. I want them to win and compete for the playoffs, but i think we are getting a big enough sample size to know that ubaldo is not the difference maker that we hoped for.

Wow.. what a whiner...

The list of players that haven't panned out; lavisky, fedroff, tj house, bryce stowell, tony wolters, lavon washington have an average of less than two years service in the Indians organization.. Indians#1whiner, Give it a break..

Chisenhall is a 23 year old with 220 ML at bats.. he's not Cord Phelps or whatever inane reference you are alluding to..

The organization isn't being decimated.

The organization isn't set back three years or more..

Being in first place.. alone or tied now for 34 consecutive days.. That's SIGNIFICANT...

TonyIPI wrote: Guy is an absolute train wreck. I applaud Antonetti for having the balls to make the deal, but he just blew our limited high value assets on damaged goods.

Getting Carrasco and Knapp (both with existing arm injuries) for Cliff Lee is a better example of trading high value assets on damaged goods. At least Ubaldo isn't out with TJ surgery or going to college and hoping his arm miraculously gets better.

But yeah, Ubaldo is a train wreck. The Indians are now saying his mechanics have gotten messed up SINCE they traded for him. I think they were already messed up, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is whether is mechanics are FUBAR.

One more start like the last one and I say they put him in long relief (he can take Accardo's spot) and bring McAlister back. And whenever Raffie is ready he can take Sipp's spot. Somebody needs to figure out what happened to him while we're at it.

This trade has signifcantly effected our ability to compete for a championship or even make the playoffs.

If ubaldo doesn't pitch well, then we have no chance at the playoffs. If people like geronimo are content with being a .500 team or slightly better than so be it.

The job of the indians FO was not to just field a competitive team. It was to make the playoffs. This trade was made with the mindset that we had a 2-3 year window with a current crop of players and that we had to do this deal.

Last year, ubaldo failed miserably in stabilizing the rotation and was a big factor in us falling apart in august and september.

I would like to know how this team can win the division and compete for the playoffs if ubaldo isn't the ubaldo of 2010. That is what antonetti and shapiro thought they were trading for.

This trade was a blunder of epic proportions. We didn't have that many assets in our organization and we traded our top 2 or 2 of our top 3 prospects for a dud. It had ramifications last year and it will this year if he doesn't turn it around.

I am enjoying the ride of us being in first place but i understand that we can't win the division without ubaldo being a dominant starter. Even masterson is having up and down starts.

All the teams that win have a starter that they can point to and say i can count on him when we need him. The dolans are not to blame for the better part of 12 years of mediocrity. The FO has screwed up with its drafting with mirabelli and finally when the drafting has improved, we trade away 2 assets that could have netted us a star and we struck out.

It isn't that ubaldo is even average. Like tony said, he is one of the worst starters in all of baseball. to try and underscore that is ridiculous.

I was against the trade when it was made. Simply stated, last year his velocity was down and he wasn't effective. Saying that, through 10 starts this year he's 5-4 (the stat that really surprises is that w/our BP he's only had 1 non-decision) and has pitched somewhat well in the 5 wins (while pitching awful in his 4 losses). Through 30 starts he is on pace to finish 15-12. While not good (and frankly not what we paid for) but good for a #3 starter. Yes this trade as it stands is a wasted use of resources but this team can compete with the U pitching above .500 but it means that we have to get better production from other parts of the staff. Our saving grace is our BP which is as good as it gets in the AL (a good BP can steal 5-10 games a year).

indians1 wrote:If ubaldo doesn't pitch well, then we have no chance at the playoffs.

Or Masterson...

masterson is another reason to question this front office. This organization made an assumption that masterson had made the jump from being a reliever to a bona fide starting pitcher. They made the wrong conclusion that they could win with masterson and ubaldo.

that is why i said the trade was a debacle and is going to decimate this organization. If those guys are not legit top of the rotation pitchers, then we will not compete for the playoffs.

people can say we are whiners, but they can't dispute the fact that the indians FO has messed up our pitching rotation for at least the next 2-3 years. Like tony said, ubaldo has been one of the worst starting pitchers in all of baseball and the sad thing is that we gave the rockies our 2 best pitching prospects.

Antonetti at least was gutsy to make a deal but it was the wrong deal and we are going to pay for it for many years. Small market teams have to draft and develop their stars. (something this FO regime has proven to be incapable of)

IMO Tony lives in the moment and doesn't see the big picture. No personal attack, I like Tony and what he and his family stand for. When I was his age, I was probably even more enthusiastic and fanatical.

However, right now both Masterson and Jimenez are going through rough spells. As long as there are no injuries involved, they will eventually get it back together. Kind of like Josh Beckett in a start against us a month ago. The Boston fans and media crucified the guy. Doug Fister is 0-3, other starters are struggling. Roy Halladay is struggling. Cliff Lee struggle mightly one year as an Indian. It happens. It might be in the Indians best interest / option to have Tim Belcher back involved and assist in some coaching capacity on a weekly basis. As long as Ubaldo has the right attitude and is willing to work, the Indians have no choice to stay with him. It's not like he is missing by a foot or more with his pitches.

You just don't go getting rid of pitchers with the stuff like Jimenez has. I suggest Tony get in the batters box and try to hit Ubaldo then make his comments and then swing against the likes of other ML pitchers. Now that won't happen, but it should. Sports writing is an amazing profession, we have people who never played the game telling us what they've never experienced. Because there is so much competition now for advertising dollars in the media we have writers who come off as coaches and experts instead of reporters. Not good.

The real underlying story here could be why we drafted Pomeranz ahead of Chris Sale in the 2010 and ... why our drafts have underachieved for the past 10 years, yet we celebrate and listen to the BS put forth by Ross Atkins and others who continue to get a pay check. Look deep and duck when most of these "experts" speak because there just guessing, but don't want you to know that. Now the Indians lack of producing position players now there's a story for Indians Minor League Magazine, but you will never hear it. A team like the Indians needs to be able to compete and pay the best scouts in the industry more than their competitors like they did with Mickey White and others in the early 90's

Goedert? He's hitting .233 at Columbus, last week he was heralded as a every day player in LF.

Hafner? Wow! Eight times in his career he has been on the DL. Maybe if we each made $13M per year we'd be tempted to stop working hard too. This guy has not only done real damage to our line up but has also suffocated the organization from bringing in other players with his multi-year salary. He can't play the field and can't stay healthy. His contract was a HUGE mistake.

Time to add to the pile. Can't count on Hafner or Sizemore, time to move on.

ironmike wrote:IMO Tony lives in the moment and doesn't see the big picture. No personal attack, I like Tony and what he and his family stand for. When I was his age, I was probably even more enthusiastic and fanatical.

Are you serious? Covering the minor leagues is all about the big picture. It's the entire organization, and it involves looking to the future and who might emerge as productive major leaguers down the road. Fans who "live in the moment" are only concerned about how we fix the left field problem by tomorrow.

However, right now both Masterson and Jimenez are going through rough spells. As long as there are no injuries involved, they will eventually get it back together. Kind of like Josh Beckett in a start against us a month ago. The Boston fans and media crucified the guy. Doug Fister is 0-3, other starters are struggling. Roy Halladay is struggling. Cliff Lee struggle mightly one year as an Indian. It happens. It might be in the Indians best interest / option to have Tim Belcher back involved and assist in some coaching capacity on a weekly basis. As long as Ubaldo has the right attitude and is willing to work, the Indians have no choice to stay with him. It's not like he is missing by a foot or more with his pitches.

Which is exactly what Tony said in his last post - the Indians have no choice but to stay with Ubaldo. You're the one predicting that it's inevitable he will start pitching better. I don't think anything is inevitable in baseball, but I hope you're right.

You just don't go getting rid of pitchers with the stuff like Jimenez has. I suggest Tony get in the batters box and try to hit Ubaldo then make his comments and then swing against the likes of other ML pitchers. Now that won't happen, but it should. Sports writing is an amazing profession, we have people who never played the game telling us what they've never experienced. Because there is so much competition now for advertising dollars in the media we have writers who come off as coaches and experts instead of reporters. Not good.

Tony could get in the batter's box against Dan Wheeler and not be able to get a loud foul - what the hell does that prove? You don't have to actually try to hit major league pitching to see when a pitcher is pitching well and when he is not. Ubaldo is having a terrible season and there's no denying that.

I never pitched to Lou Marson but I can assure you he's not a very good hitter.

The real underlying story here could be why we drafted Pomeranz ahead of Chris Sale in the 2010 and ... why our drafts have underachieved for the past 10 years, yet we celebrate and listen to the BS put forth by Ross Atkins and others who continue to get a pay check. Look deep and duck when most of these "experts" speak because there just guessing, but don't want you to know that. Now the Indians lack of producing position players now there's a story for Indians Minor League Magazine, but you will never hear it. A team like the Indians needs to be able to compete and pay the best scouts in the industry more than their competitors like they did with Mickey White and others in the early 90's

The Indians' drafts had a period of abysmal underachievement which has been well documented by Tony. Changes were made and the people making the picks now seem to be doing a much better job. It just takes a while for the players to work their way up through the system.

Goedert? He's hitting .233 at Columbus, last week he was heralded as a every day player in LF.

Geodert has been an infielder his whole career. Nobody heralded him as an every day LF in Cleveland. At least I don't remember it if they did. His best chance in Cleveland, in my opinion, is to replace Pronk as the DH next year, but he has to hit big time in AAA first. He's right-handed and hits for power, so he's interesting, but at age 27 his ship has probably sailed. Jose Lopez is ahead of him and probably LaPorta as well.

Hafner? Wow! Eight times in his career he has been on the DL. Maybe if we each made $13M per year we'd be tempted to stop working hard too. This guy has not only done real damage to our line up but has also suffocated the organization from bringing in other players with his multi-year salary. He can't play the field and can't stay healthy. His contract was a HUGE mistake.

This is where I tend to agree. Hafner was signed in mid-season after hitting 42 HR's the year before. But his HR rate the following year was half that, and suddenly he was willing to sign a deal after failing to reach an agreement in the off-season. I suspect Hafner knew his shoulder wasn't OK and told his agent to get a deal done before it became obvious. But that's just a suspicion on my part.

However, saying Hafner has been injured so often because he doesn't work hard is absurd. The guy is a true professional and takes cares of himself and always stays in shape. His injuries have nothing to do with him slacking off on his conditioning and losing motivation after signing his last contract. In fact, he changed his diet to lose some weight in an effort to reduce his chances for injury. The fact that you could blame Hafner's injuries on a poor work ethic after getting his money destroys any credibility you might have had, IMO. That and saying you can't be critical of Ubaldo if you never swung a bat against him.

Time to add to the pile. Can't count on Hafner or Sizemore, time to move on.

Hafner will be back in 4-6 weeks after minor knee surgery. There's no reason why he can't have a strong second half. I agree we can't count on Sizemore.

Prosecutor wrote:The real underlying story here could be why we drafted Pomeranz ahead of Chris Sale in the 2010 and ... why our drafts have underachieved for the past 10 years, yet we celebrate and listen to the BS put forth by Ross Atkins and others who continue to get a pay check. Look deep and duck when most of these "experts" speak because there just guessing, but don't want you to know that. Now the Indians lack of producing position players now there's a story for Indians Minor League Magazine, but you will never hear it. A team like the Indians needs to be able to compete and pay the best scouts in the industry more than their competitors like they did with Mickey White and others in the early 90's

The Indians' drafts had a period of abysmal underachievement which has been well documented by Tony. Changes were made and the people making the picks now seem to be doing a much better job. It just takes a while for the players to work their way up through the system.

Pomeranz was drafted because the team believed he had a higher ceiling than Sale (while Sale was considered closer to the majors) but Pom needed additional development (and still does). The team drafts what it believes is the BPA but there was a change in "what that means" in recent drafts (Sowers = closest to majors and BPA at the time of the draft but Lindor had highest ceiling at that time or projected BPA). The old way got us guys like Sowers, Mills, Aubreay, Crowe and Huff and the newer way got us players like Lindor, Chisenhall, and Howard (similar to older drafts like Manny, Jaret Wright, and Jim Thome).

Prosecutor wrote:Hafner? Wow! Eight times in his career he has been on the DL. Maybe if we each made $13M per year we'd be tempted to stop working hard too. This guy has not only done real damage to our line up but has also suffocated the organization from bringing in other players with his multi-year salary. He can't play the field and can't stay healthy. His contract was a HUGE mistake.

This is where I tend to agree. Hafner was signed in mid-season after hitting 42 HR's the year before. But his HR rate the following year was half that, and suddenly he was willing to sign a deal after failing to reach an agreement in the off-season. I suspect Hafner knew his shoulder wasn't OK and told his agent to get a deal done before it became obvious. But that's just a suspicion on my part.

However, saying Hafner has been injured so often because he doesn't work hard is absurd. The guy is a true professional and takes cares of himself and always stays in shape. His injuries have nothing to do with him slacking off on his conditioning and losing motivation after signing his last contract. In fact, he changed his diet to lose some weight in an effort to reduce his chances for injury. The fact that you could blame Hafner's injuries on a poor work ethic after getting his money destroys any credibility you might have had, IMO. That and saying you can't be critical of Ubaldo if you never swung a bat against him.

Having been a sports fan for 30+ many years, I've come to the conclusion that shoulder injuries never really heal. This is one reason why I would not have signed Peyton Manning by the Broncos (not the disk but the nerve damage he has in his shoulder) or drafted Weeden by the Browns. I am still pissed that the Indians didn't do a physical on Knapp when they got him or went back to Philly for some additional compensation (Philly clearly mis-diagnosed his injury - not saying they mis-lead the team).

indians1 wrote:If ubaldo doesn't pitch well, then we have no chance at the playoffs.

Or Masterson...

masterson is another reason to question this front office. This organization made an assumption that masterson had made the jump from being a reliever to a bona fide starting pitcher. They made the wrong conclusion that they could win with masterson and ubaldo.

Couldn't disagree more here. Masterson was a great move by the front office and still is. Tribe is a game and a half out of 1st place with Masterson and Ubaldo...how are they not winning?

Word is the Tribe is going to push Ubaldo's next start back to Tuesday in Detroit from this Saturday at home against the Twins to work on his mechanics.

I totally get that his mechanics are out of whack and all...but I am not a big fan of this move. We are moving up Tomlin from Sunday to Saturday (fine with that) and also moving Masterson from Tuesday up to Sunday....because his mechanics are fine now right?

The one thing Ubaldo has done well since coming to Cleveland is pitch well at home. Why push back a home start to a road start? Not to mention he's gonna go from pitching at home against the Twins (arguably the worst team in baseball) to facing the Tigers in their park....hmm...

I know the sample is still small, but in 10 home starts as an Indian Ubaldo has still never gone fewer than 6 innings and 80% of his starts have been quality starts. Averaging 6.7 innings per start at home too with a 3.09 ERA, .188 BAA, 7.25 K/9, 3.76 BB/9 (respectable 1.93 K/BB rate). He's 3-0 in his last 3 starts at home against the Rangers (great offense), Mariners, and Tigers (some big boppers).

All for bumping a start back, but with the off-day monday, why not wait til next week to do it? He'd still be on the road but in an NL park (no DH). I get that with 2 off days here it gives him an extra day, but still think this is a terrible move. Bump him back 1 day and he'd have only had 1 start on the next road trip before getting Pittsburgh (God-awful offense) at home in 2 weeks (thanks to back-to-back Monday off days). 3 of Ubaldo's next 4 starts could have been at home...now 4 of his next 5 are likely to be on the road (one of which will be in Yankee Stadium)..

Again, know these numbers come from a small sample but with the schedule at home Ubaldo could have had, I'd have waited til later in the month/All-Star break to try this. Tribe has to get him fixed though, I know this...worry if they don't here that we could be looking at some really ugly road starts this month from Ubaldo...

I hear what you're saying but they need to get Ubaldo fixed as quickly as possible, assuming it can be done. This is much more important than improving our chances of winning one game.

Last year Derrick Lowe's mechanics were messed up but he couldn't fix them during the season because he needed to start every 5th day, so it limited his throwing between games. It looks like they're trying to figure out a way to free up some bullpen sessions so Ubaldo can fix some things without having to wait until the end of the season. Even if it reduces our chances of winning one game it will be more than worth it if he can get himself straightened out. That pitcher we saw against the White Sox isn't going to do us any good the rest of the year whether he pitches at home or away.

Prosecutor wrote:Last year Derrick Lowe's mechanics were messed up but he couldn't fix them during the season because he needed to start every 5th day, so it limited his throwing between games. It looks like they're trying to figure out a way to free up some bullpen sessions so Ubaldo can fix some things without having to wait until the end of the season. Even if it reduces our chances of winning one game it will be more than worth it if he can get himself straightened out. That pitcher we saw against the White Sox isn't going to do us any good the rest of the year whether he pitches at home or away.

I don't think Lowe's problem last year was with his mechanics....it was more an emotional issue (having watched several of his starts). His problems started with the DUI arrest (was not convicted) and just got worse as the season went on. He would cruise for 3-4 innings then break down (in a very bad way). It looked like he just lost concentration.

ironmike wrote:IMO Tony lives in the moment and doesn't see the big picture. No personal attack, I like Tony and what he and his family stand for. When I was his age, I was probably even more enthusiastic and fanatical.

However, right now both Masterson and Jimenez are going through rough spells. As long as there are no injuries involved, they will eventually get it back together. Kind of like Josh Beckett in a start against us a month ago. The Boston fans and media crucified the guy. Doug Fister is 0-3, other starters are struggling. Roy Halladay is struggling. Cliff Lee struggle mightly one year as an Indian. It happens. It might be in the Indians best interest / option to have Tim Belcher back involved and assist in some coaching capacity on a weekly basis. As long as Ubaldo has the right attitude and is willing to work, the Indians have no choice to stay with him. It's not like he is missing by a foot or more with his pitches.

You just don't go getting rid of pitchers with the stuff like Jimenez has. I suggest Tony get in the batters box and try to hit Ubaldo then make his comments and then swing against the likes of other ML pitchers. Now that won't happen, but it should. Sports writing is an amazing profession, we have people who never played the game telling us what they've never experienced. Because there is so much competition now for advertising dollars in the media we have writers who come off as coaches and experts instead of reporters. Not good.

Wow Mike, you couldn't be more far off. If there is anyone around who does NOT live in the moment, it is me. I'm one of the most patient baseball guys around. When a lot of people were not happy about the Ubaldo trade last year, I tried to make sense of it and felt it was the right move. When he pitched poorly for the Indians in August/September, I felt he needed an offseason to get things in order and get his mechanics straight and that the time away would help. When he came to spring training and was no different and the same inconsistent mess he was at the end of last season, I still held out hope when the lights turned on at the start of the season he would get it going. But here we stand 10 starts into this season and he has been bad. VERY bad. One of the worst pitchers in baseball.

And that's not just a living in the moment thing. That's looking at his body of work this season....what he did in spring training....what he did in the offseason....what he did with the Indians last year....what he did with the Rockies before that....what he did with the Rockies the second half of 2010. In other words, there is a significant trend of poor pitching now for almost two years. Not one start...not a month....not even half a year....but almost 2 years.

Hey, if you want to bury your head in the sand, cover your ears and ignore everything, and just believe everything will be just fine, then so be it. But your simple statement that "it will be alright" does not fly with me. Look, they have been working on his mechanics now non-stop since the offseason. Nothing is getting better. He has one good game and follows it with two crappy ones. There is no consistency with anything he does. I can't tell you how many people in the game I have approached on the subject over the past few weeks and so many say they believe his mechanical flaws are unfixable and that he is just what he is....a guy with great stuff but who lacks a good feel for pitching and has all kinds of problems mechanically.

At this point he is what he is.....a back of the rotation starter at best. He's Fausto Carmona. A guy that drives you nuts because he is so damn talented, but lacks the committment and ability upstairs to make the necessary adjustments or just plain lacks the ability to make the adjustments. I'm sure to you that Carmona will be just fine too? No worries, right?

Also, a word of advice, instead of coming off like an elitist jerk, maybe you should try and make a sensible argument in response to those that oppose you. All you have done with Ubaldo is say "he will be fine" and then spend the rest of the time telling everyone how much smarter than everyone you are. Give us some reasons why Ubaldo will be fine....what mechanical flaws he has and how they are correctable....what areas he is showing progress in...etc. I'm down with that.

No Tony, I don't bury my head in the sand just have seen over the years more examples of this then you have. IF the guy doesn't have arm injuries and as long as he's working at it, he will find his command again. His stuff is electric, alll of his pitches dart and dip, great movement and he changes speeds very well. Great 12-6 breaking ball.

He has lost his keys in his delivery that allow him to locate consistently. Fanatical fans expect players to be perfect, do perfect 10's for a long period of time. And, my guess is you're pissed they traded prospects because it seems you value you them more than wins for the ML team which is wrong. IMO you don't see the big picture. These so called prospects are assets and very few of them ever pan out, very few. They are way over hyped because they are graded for the most part against inferior competition and astute projections are necessary, it is a guessing game at best because one can't measure heart, guts or determination. Then the player has to be given a fair chance to play on a regular basis, not like what is being done to Jason Donald. The Jimenez situation requires looking at the big picture. Prospects are just one part of building a winning baseball team, not the main ingredient.

All we hear about is velocity regarding Jimenez. It used to be 98 MPH now only 92-94 MPH, so what? As long as his pitches move and he can keep the ball down in the zone that is what counts. Hell, throwing as hard as he does now is still considered a power arm? Right? He has plenty of velocity on his pitches and movement to be a big winner again.

Control, getting ahead in the count is the key for Jimenez. He's not missing by much, we are talking inches here, not feet. His wide-up is very much Tiantesque which can cause the release point to be out of sync and get under the baseball. Pitchers do get out of their rythmn, lose their release points, very similar to the golf swing. Right now Jimenez can't repeat his tempo, his release point varies, it can be corrected. Professional golfers lose their tempo and ability to hit consistent shots in the middle of the club face often all the time. They go to the range and work with Hank Haney, Ledbetter, McLean just like Jimenez is now doing with Radman at the moment. Once he finds his keys to locate consistently, Jimenez has the stuff to win ten in a row and shut down ANY team in MLB.

Now where are you going to find a pitcher like that?

Another pitcher who went through these kind of struggles was Rick Sutcliffe. Started great with the Dodgers, faded, traded to to Cleveland, did okay, hit a rough spell, we traded him and he went on to win 16 straight for the Cubs and won the Cy Young. In some regard you can look at the career of Dennis Eckersley too. Early success, lost it, thrown to the scrap pile and found it again. A lot of this I'm sure is mental, things start to go bad, panic sets in and then maturity is earned and kicks in. Players, especially pitchers must always be reinventing themselves.

Tough times don't last, but TOUGH people do. Ubaldo is not a mess, is just out of sync.

The solution?

PATIENCE, understanding the big picture.

Ditto for Masterson.

Suggestion earn a time to speak with Radzinsky or Tim Belcher and ask them pointed questions. Then we might not be having this conversation. Reporters report, coaches coach. Let's hear what they have to say about all this.

Last edited by ironmike on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

-Tony, by conspicuous omission, didn't take up the challenge of getting in the batters box.. what?.. are ya chicken?.. (lol)

-Ubaldo's start, originally slated for today or tomorrow, has been pushed back to Tuesday. There may have been some 'concern' about the low back cramps or strain or pick a soft tissue injury that doesn't permit him to pitch.. This may give Ubaldo a bit of 'time' to fix everything.. yeah... right..

-If anyone is "missing by a foot", his name is Masterson, not Ubaldo.. Ubaldo has driven more baseballs into the dirt in front of, next to, and all around the plate as his nasty 'stuff' (splitter) dives into the dirt.. Masterson starts his slider on the plate or just on the outside part of the plate to RH hitters..resulting in Carlos or Lou or Luke needing to dive into the LH batters box to get leather on it.. If Masterson could start that same pitch from the third base side of the rubber behind the RH batter's hip.. no one would ever be able to hit the ball as it crossed over the outside corner of the plate.. It looks like it's moving 2 feet or more..

Patience? We should just be patient and everything will be fine? It's been nearly two years since he's been an above average pitcher, and he's just getting worse. His ERA at the moment ranks 50th among A.L. starting pitchers.

My take is he's one of those high performance, high maintenance Indy cars that can go 200 mph when tuned up and all parts are perfectly in sync, but the design is so complicated that the car rarely is in sync and is a total frustration for the mechanics.

I think Ubaldo had one glorious half-season where everything clicked, but then he lost it and has not been able to find it. Show me an example where a dominating pitcher lost his command for two years and then got it back.

This season Ubaldo is walking 6.75 hitters per 9 innings. In the first half of 2010 it was 3.3. Even last year it was 3.7. His pitches are practically unhittable when he gets them over. This year he just can't get them over consistently.

The one ray of hope for me is that he's still tough to hit when he's in the strike zone. Even his last start against the White Sox where he gave up seven ER's in four innings they weren't hitting him hard. I counted four bloop hits in four innings. Only a couple of balls were hit hard.

I just think his delivery is so "Tiantesque" that he can't consistently control his pitches. Luis Tiant was short whereas Ubaldo is pretty tall. I believe it's harder for a taller pitcher to coordinate all those moving parts. Masterson has the same problem.

I think you can make the comparison between Ubaldo's 2012 and Dontrelle Willis' 2008 with the Tigers at this point. His numbers have gone that far off the cliff. His FIP, FIPx and k/9 rates are so far out of line with his career norms right now. At this point in 2008, the Tigers pulled the plug on Dontrelle and furthered his downward spiral. The Indians don't, as of now, really have that same option. But if he continues to pitch like this... how likely does it become that the Indians even pick up the option on him this off-season?

He's a below replacement level pitcher right now. Given all the arms they have at AAA, and with Carlos Carrasco returning... it might be a good idea just to let Ubaldo go after this season. It would seem an awful waste after the trade, but you have to think of that as a sunk cost now. In a more fair situation where contracts and options weren't considerations, I think there would be a decent chance that McAllister would be ahead of Jimenez in the rotational pecking order right now. If things don't change, the Indians would be doing a disservice to their team by picking up the option. In fact, picking up Travis Hafner's option would be a way better idea.

No way picking up Hafner's option is a good idea, or even a consideration. They may buy him out and try to re-sign him at a much lower cost, but I can't see them picking up the option.

They got burned by giving Grady $5 million this year and I don't see them repeating that mistake again. The only way it could have happened is if Hafner made it through the entire season uninjured and had a productive season.