Post by garo on Sept 16, 2016 15:38:26 GMT

Well, she wasn't there when I took out saren. Then ash found out I was working with Cerberus, and told me to kindly screw off. But after all that arrogance of Miranda, and my old feelings for ash, she was my girl of choice. If I ever manage to do a third play through though, I have every intention of sticking with Miranda through thick and thin. I might not even go for my old specter title, in that run through.

Ash wasn't there when you fought the Collectors. Ash refused to help you against the Collectors. Ash didn't believe in you, or believe you about them. Ash cut you out due to an inability to listen or let you explain yourself. Ash didn't do anything to help or prepare the galaxy for the Reapers arrival. Ash was an alliance stooge.

Don't be Ash.

Miranda changed her opinion of you due to your actions and became a stronger person. Miranda helped you build a team up and showed she was worthy of her arrogance, as well as having her own insecurities and dislike of pressure. Miranda didn't help you fight Saren because she didn't yet know you in any meaningful way. Miranda and Cerberus stood behind Shepard when no one else would.

Be Miranda.

Ash didn't refuse to help against the collectors, she refused to work with Cerberus because she had strong morals and Cerberus did things like turning people into husks on purpose.

Miranda did grow as a person but still killed her father when she got a chance, no matter how holy paragon influence your Shepard had on her.

Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 16, 2016 16:56:27 GMT

Ash wasn't there when you fought the Collectors. Ash refused to help you against the Collectors. Ash didn't believe in you, or believe you about them. Ash cut you out due to an inability to listen or let you explain yourself. Ash didn't do anything to help or prepare the galaxy for the Reapers arrival. Ash was an alliance stooge.

Don't be Ash.

Miranda changed her opinion of you due to your actions and became a stronger person. Miranda helped you build a team up and showed she was worthy of her arrogance, as well as having her own insecurities and dislike of pressure. Miranda didn't help you fight Saren because she didn't yet know you in any meaningful way. Miranda and Cerberus stood behind Shepard when no one else would.

Be Miranda.

Ash didn't refuse to help against the collectors, she refused to work with Cerberus because she had strong morals and Cerberus did things like turning people into husks on purpose.

Miranda did grow as a person but still killed her father when she got a chance, no matter how holy paragon influence your Shepard had on her.

Ash did indeed refuse to help against the Collectors; in her hang-ups against Cerberus, she didn't realize the true threat. She let her feelings and morals get in the way of reality. And she blamed Shepard for something he had no control over (though my Shepard admires Cerberus and is a proud member throughout ME2). She alone of every squadmember from ME1 refused to help out of ideological incompatibility, which is senseless against the Reaper threat. She showed she didn't have what it takes then and there.

Miranda arguably had lateral character development, without needing to grow professionally. Your point of contention is moot: you're implying Miranda is bad because she (rightfully) killed her father (in what could arguably called self-defense given that he was already trying to kill Miranda, was holding Oriana hostage, and pointing a gun at both Shepard and Miranda). As well, no one would punish the extrajudicial killing of Henry Lawson given what was going on at Sanctuary (despite the utility and benefit his research gleaned.)

Ashley meanwhile doesn't have this excuse in ME1 if she kills Wrex; sure, she may have been 'defending' Shepard from Wrex, but there was still the point of reason in which you could talk Wrex down, and Ash acts unilaterally in the instance if you don't.

I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute it to Voltaire - Voltaire

Post by garo on Sept 16, 2016 17:44:29 GMT

Ash didn't refuse to help against the collectors, she refused to work with Cerberus because she had strong morals and Cerberus did things like turning people into husks on purpose.

Miranda did grow as a person but still killed her father when she got a chance, no matter how holy paragon influence your Shepard had on her.

Ash did indeed refuse to help against the Collectors; in her hang-ups against Cerberus, she didn't realize the true threat. She let her feelings and morals get in the way of reality. And she blamed Shepard for something he had no control over (though my Shepard admires Cerberus and is a proud member throughout ME2). She alone of every squadmember from ME1 refused to help out of ideological incompatibility, which is senseless against the Reaper threat. She showed she didn't have what it takes then and there.

Miranda arguably had lateral character development, without needing to grow professionally. Your point of contention is moot: you're implying Miranda is bad because she (rightfully) killed her father (in what could arguably called self-defense given that he was already trying to kill Miranda, was holding Oriana hostage, and pointing a gun at both Shepard and Miranda). As well, no one would punish the extrajudicial killing of Henry Lawson given what was going on at Sanctuary (despite the utility and benefit his research gleaned.)

Ashley meanwhile doesn't have this excuse in ME1 if she kills Wrex; sure, she may have been 'defending' Shepard from Wrex, but there was still the point of reason in which you could talk Wrex down, and Ash acts unilaterally in the instance if you don't.

What you find bad about Ash in ME2, I admire.

As for Miranda I'm implying that taking him hostage would be much more beneficial and also would make much more sense if you paragoned her whole ME2. Not to say I can't understand her decision but I don't have to think it was *right*.

Wrex pointed a gun at Shepard and she shoots only after Wrex refuses to calm down.

Post by Ieldra on Sept 16, 2016 19:21:57 GMT

Ash didn't refuse to help against the collectors, she refused to work with Cerberus because she had strong morals and Cerberus did things like turning people into husks on purpose.

(1) Survival is more important than morality - even if you contest this on an individual level, would you let all of humanity die for a principle? Thus, the statement that in the face of the Reaper threat, her refusal is not admirable.(2) In ME2 nobody knew what Cerberus did, and the relevant sidequests in ME1 looked more like accidents. In many people's games, you hadn't even been to Pragia yet when you met Ashley on Horizon.

"A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free." -- Arthur SchopenhauerIgnorance is bold, and knowledge is reserved -- ThucydidesI'd rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned -- Richard Feynman

Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 16, 2016 19:54:35 GMT

Ash didn't refuse to help against the collectors, she refused to work with Cerberus because she had strong morals and Cerberus did things like turning people into husks on purpose.

(1) Survival is more important than morality - even if you contest this on an individual level, would you let all of humanity die for a principle? Thus, the statement that in the face of the Reaper threat, her refusal is not admirable.(2) In ME2 nobody knew what Cerberus did, and the relevant sidequests in ME1 looked more like accidents. In many people's games, you hadn't even been to Pragia yet when you met Ashley on Horizon.

Pragia was more or less a cell gone rogue, and even then, it produced results in Jack; whether this was beneficial for Cerberus is questionable, but it was beneficial to humanity... thus tacitly proving Cerberus right.

I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute it to Voltaire - Voltaire

Post by garo on Sept 16, 2016 20:56:13 GMT

Ash didn't refuse to help against the collectors, she refused to work with Cerberus because she had strong morals and Cerberus did things like turning people into husks on purpose.

(1) Survival is more important than morality - even if you contest this on an individual level, would you let all of humanity die for a principle? Thus, the statement that in the face of the Reaper threat, her refusal is not admirable.(2) In ME2 nobody knew what Cerberus did, and the relevant sidequests in ME1 looked more like accidents. In many people's games, you hadn't even been to Pragia yet when you met Ashley on Horizon.

(1) That's your opinion, I respect her decision. She prefered Alliance for several reasons.

(2) Cerberus is called "terrorist organisation". It probably happened because it kind of is.

Post by garo on Sept 16, 2016 20:58:06 GMT

(1) Survival is more important than morality - even if you contest this on an individual level, would you let all of humanity die for a principle? Thus, the statement that in the face of the Reaper threat, her refusal is not admirable.(2) In ME2 nobody knew what Cerberus did, and the relevant sidequests in ME1 looked more like accidents. In many people's games, you hadn't even been to Pragia yet when you met Ashley on Horizon.

Pragia was more or less a cell gone rogue, and even then, it produced results in Jack; whether this was beneficial for Cerberus is questionable, but it was beneficial to humanity... thus tacitly proving Cerberus right.

Post by Ieldra on Sept 16, 2016 20:58:38 GMT

The very nature of cancer makes it a disease that you can't exactly "cure".

This is incorrect. You can use genetic engineering to program immune cells to selectively destroy tumor cells. For certain cancer types, this has cured 50% of all cases in clinical studies. Cancer is a disease of the multicellular system, and tumor cells can be distinguished from healthy cells by specific structures on the cell surface, and these cells can be consequently attacked. www.technologyreview.com/s/600763/10-breakthrough-technologies-2016-immune-engineering/

"A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free." -- Arthur SchopenhauerIgnorance is bold, and knowledge is reserved -- ThucydidesI'd rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned -- Richard Feynman

Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 16, 2016 23:35:23 GMT

Pragia was more or less a cell gone rogue, and even then, it produced results in Jack; whether this was beneficial for Cerberus is questionable, but it was beneficial to humanity... thus tacitly proving Cerberus right.

Wow, Jack would hate you.

That's her problem. And Miranda was right about her, of course. Her skills are a boon, but she's a mistake.

I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute it to Voltaire - Voltaire

Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 16, 2016 23:38:53 GMT

(1) Survival is more important than morality - even if you contest this on an individual level, would you let all of humanity die for a principle? Thus, the statement that in the face of the Reaper threat, her refusal is not admirable.(2) In ME2 nobody knew what Cerberus did, and the relevant sidequests in ME1 looked more like accidents. In many people's games, you hadn't even been to Pragia yet when you met Ashley on Horizon.

(1) That's your opinion, I respect her decision. She prefered Alliance for several reasons.

(2) Cerberus is called "terrorist organisation". It probably happened because it kind of is.

1) None of them good, which is why I don't respect her or her decision. The alliance itself can hardly be called a saint themselves, but I'd still take the group that does questionable and extreme methods to do something than the 'moral and ethical' passive group that doesn't do anything.

2) That's not terrorism bud. I've made a career out of COIN and CT in the military, and I can tell you up-front that Cerberus is incorrectly labeled. They do harsh things to bring us a better future. But it's the price of what we do; the rest of the humanity is unable/unwilling to do the normal things to advance us. So Cerberus has to do the harsh things to compensate.

I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute it to Voltaire - Voltaire

Post by The Elder King on Sept 17, 2016 12:16:04 GMT

I agree on Hawkeye of the Alliance not being a saint. It actually has quite a series off questionable activities in their past. I think up until ME3 both Cerberus and the Alliance were viable alternatives for Shepard, and I'd have preferred a picking choice in ME3. And I say this with an overall similar opinion of Cerberus and the Alliance until ME3.

Post by Sifr on Sept 17, 2016 12:37:01 GMT

2) That's not terrorism bud. I've made a career out of COIN and CT in the military, and I can tell you up-front that Cerberus is incorrectly labeled. They do harsh things to bring us a better future. But it's the price of what we do; the rest of the humanity is unable/unwilling to do the normal things to advance us. So Cerberus has to do the harsh things to compensate.

The novel Ascension features Cerberus attacking the Migrant Fleet and threatening to blow up the Quarian ship Idenna, an event clearly referred to in ME2 during the mission on Freedom's Progress, when Shepard asks Tali why the Quarians seem to have a problem with Cerberus.

Shepard: Your people really don't like Cerberus, what did I miss?Praaza: They killed our people, infiltrated our flotilla and tried to blow up one of our ships.Miranda: That's not how I'd have explained it, exactly. It was nothing personal.Jacob: We can argue over who killed who later.

I'd say lacing your starship with explosives and threatening to ram it into another vessel if you don't get you way, falls under the definition of terrorism. It's basically no different than a human wearing a suicide vest and threatening to blow themselves up and the person next to them, unless their demands are met.

Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 17, 2016 15:21:46 GMT

2) That's not terrorism bud. I've made a career out of COIN and CT in the military, and I can tell you up-front that Cerberus is incorrectly labeled. They do harsh things to bring us a better future. But it's the price of what we do; the rest of the humanity is unable/unwilling to do the normal things to advance us. So Cerberus has to do the harsh things to compensate.

The novel Ascension features Cerberus attacking the Migrant Fleet and threatening to blow up the Quarian ship Idenna, an event clearly referred to in ME2 during the mission on Freedom's Progress, when Shepard asks Tali why the Quarians seem to have a problem with Cerberus.

Shepard: Your people really don't like Cerberus, what did I miss?Praaza: They killed our people, infiltrated our flotilla and tried to blow up one of our ships.Miranda: That's not how I'd have explained it, exactly. It was nothing personal.Jacob: We can argue over who killed who later.

I'd say lacing your starship with explosives and threatening to ram it into another vessel if you don't get you way, falls under the definition of terrorism. It's basically no different than a human wearing a suicide vest and threatening to blow themselves up and the person next to them, unless their demands are met.

I'll take Miranda and Jacob's explanation or promise of such later; it never comes up again. All we get is the Quarians perspective (not Cerberus), and given the Quarians missteps in the Geth crisis, I think I'll question their assertion.

Personally, I think the Quarians are a force that need to be contained or eliminated. Very insular, too well-armed, and willing to stir up trouble. I'm sure Cerberus has an explanation for their motives and actions.

I'm not going to cast stones on them for that alone. As I said, I've worked against real terrorists; Cerberus by no means falls under that spectrum at all.

I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute it to Voltaire - Voltaire

Post by garo on Sept 17, 2016 16:37:12 GMT

The novel Ascension features Cerberus attacking the Migrant Fleet and threatening to blow up the Quarian ship Idenna, an event clearly referred to in ME2 during the mission on Freedom's Progress, when Shepard asks Tali why the Quarians seem to have a problem with Cerberus.

Shepard: Your people really don't like Cerberus, what did I miss?Praaza: They killed our people, infiltrated our flotilla and tried to blow up one of our ships.Miranda: That's not how I'd have explained it, exactly. It was nothing personal.Jacob: We can argue over who killed who later.

I'd say lacing your starship with explosives and threatening to ram it into another vessel if you don't get you way, falls under the definition of terrorism. It's basically no different than a human wearing a suicide vest and threatening to blow themselves up and the person next to them, unless their demands are met.

I'll take Miranda and Jacob's explanation or promise of such later; it never comes up again. All we get is the Quarians perspective (not Cerberus), and given the Quarians missteps in the Geth crisis, I think I'll question their assertion.

Personally, I think the Quarians are a force that need to be contained or eliminated. Very insular, too well-armed, and willing to stir up trouble. I'm sure Cerberus has an explanation for their motives and actions.

I'm not going to cast stones on them for that alone. As I said, I've worked against real terrorists; Cerberus by no means falls under that spectrum at all.

Oh Cerberus had an explanations for that move. They were after autistic biotic girl that they secretly drugged until she escaped. She was meant to be next Jack.

Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 17, 2016 16:41:30 GMT

I'll take Miranda and Jacob's explanation or promise of such later; it never comes up again. All we get is the Quarians perspective (not Cerberus), and given the Quarians missteps in the Geth crisis, I think I'll question their assertion.

Personally, I think the Quarians are a force that need to be contained or eliminated. Very insular, too well-armed, and willing to stir up trouble. I'm sure Cerberus has an explanation for their motives and actions.

I'm not going to cast stones on them for that alone. As I said, I've worked against real terrorists; Cerberus by no means falls under that spectrum at all.

Oh Cerberus had an explanations for that move. They were after autistic biotic girl that they secretly drugged until she escaped. She was meant to be next Jack.

And stolen from their facility where she could do more harm to others in public. Still, she was a liability. Better to just kill her and be done with her.

I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute it to Voltaire - Voltaire

Post by Sifr on Sept 17, 2016 16:51:55 GMT

I'll take Miranda and Jacob's explanation or promise of such later; it never comes up again. All we get is the Quarians perspective (not Cerberus), and given the Quarians missteps in the Geth crisis, I think I'll question their assertion.

Personally, I think the Quarians are a force that need to be contained or eliminated. Very insular, too well-armed, and willing to stir up trouble. I'm sure Cerberus has an explanation for their motives and actions.

I'm not going to cast stones on them for that alone. As I said, I've worked against real terrorists; Cerberus by no means falls under that spectrum at all.

Cerberus teams stormed the Idenna with the intention of kidnapping Gillian Grayson, a biotic prodigy from Grissom Academy who was seeking refuge on the flotilla when it was discovered that Cerberus planned to turn her into a weapon (similar to Jack).

The incident was witnessed not only by the Quarians. Kahlee Sanders with the Alliance was present, as was Paul Grayson, Gillian's father who was a member of Cerberus, but defected once he realised that the Illusive Man wasn't planning to turn her into a "saviour" of humanity as he'd been lead to believe, but merely a tool to advance humanity's interests.

While the Quarians might be insular because they've been outcasts among galactic society for the better part of 300 years, precisely how have they managed to "stir up trouble" by wandering around the galaxy in their exile? We know that they tend to travel on the edges of space, seeking out inhabited and unaligned systems to mine for necessary resources and fuel, precisely to avoid upsetting any species whom might claim those areas of space or try to accuse them of strip mining their worlds.

Frankly, the only people stirring up trouble are Cerberus, who constantly involve themselves in unethical and morally bankrupt experiments that have a high tendency to go horribly wrong and end up leading to the death of almost everyone involved.

ME1 and ME2 examples of questionable Cerberus activity include, attempting to control the Rachni, trying to control the Geth and the later attempt with Project Overlord, attempting to control Husks, Wilson murdering almost the entire Lazarus cell by turning the mechs against them, Cerberus luring a team to a Thresher Maw nest on Akuze and possibly in the first game, the implication that TIM lured the Collectors to Horizon by leaking that Ash/Kaidan would be there, the Pragia cell torturing children to create a super-biotic until Jack broke out and wiped out the facility, sending a team to retrieve a Reaper IFF without telling them about the risk of Indoctrination.

Expanded universe material also includes Cerberus deliberately having one of the agents agree to exchange an entire human colony to the Collectors for Reaper/Collector technology. These events are referred to in ME3 by Vega, who was the protagonist of Paragon Lost, the animated film in which they took place.

Cerberus are at best described as a paramilitary human extremist group, but we've seen clear indications that they are fully prepared to conduct terrorist activities if it furthers their political and ideological agenda. For instance, we've seen them use murder or assassination of their enemies, coercion and blackmail, numerous counts of experimentation on human and alien species, torture, kidnapping and the use of child soldiers.

All of which would be enough to charge them with countless war crimes in a human court on Earth, let alone whatever interstellar laws they've broken from the treaties that humanity has most definitely had to have signed upon joining the Citadel and admission to the Council.

Post by garo on Sept 17, 2016 17:08:00 GMT

Actually no, she was secretly drugged in Grissom Academy. By Cerberus. Rather morally wrong.

But it produced results. Morality is nothing next to that. Still, she started to lose it. Better to put her down and find a more suitable candidate that's more malleable.

What results? 90% od Cerberus actions resulted in complete failure. I think there is this one dialogue about this in Citadel DLC. Seems like Shepard was their only success. For the most part inhumane ways mostly likely are going to backfire. And even if they don't this doesn't make it right.

Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 17, 2016 17:17:48 GMT

I'll take Miranda and Jacob's explanation or promise of such later; it never comes up again. All we get is the Quarians perspective (not Cerberus), and given the Quarians missteps in the Geth crisis, I think I'll question their assertion.

Personally, I think the Quarians are a force that need to be contained or eliminated. Very insular, too well-armed, and willing to stir up trouble. I'm sure Cerberus has an explanation for their motives and actions.

I'm not going to cast stones on them for that alone. As I said, I've worked against real terrorists; Cerberus by no means falls under that spectrum at all.

Cerberus teams stormed the Idenna with the intention of kidnapping Gillian Grayson, a biotic prodigy from Grissom Academy who was seeking refuge on the flotilla when it was discovered that Cerberus planned to turn her into a weapon (similar to Jack).

The incident was witnessed not only by the Quarians. Kahlee Sanders with the Alliance was present, as was Paul Grayson, Gillian's father who was a member of Cerberus, but defected once he realised that the Illusive Man wasn't planning to turn her into a "saviour" of humanity as he'd been lead to believe, but merely a tool to advance humanity's interests.

While the Quarians might be insular because they've been outcasts among galactic society for the better part of 300 years, precisely how have they managed to "stir up trouble" by wandering around the galaxy in their exile? We know that they tend to travel on the edges of space, seeking out inhabited and unaligned systems to mine for necessary resources and fuel, precisely to avoid upsetting any species whom might claim those areas of space or try to accuse them of strip mining their worlds.

Frankly, the only people stirring up trouble are Cerberus, who constantly involve themselves in unethical and morally bankrupt experiments that have a high tendency to go horribly wrong and end up leading to the death of almost everyone involved.

ME1 and ME2 examples of questionable Cerberus activity include, attempting to control the Rachni, trying to control the Geth and the later attempt with Project Overlord, attempting to control Husks, Wilson murdering almost the entire Lazarus cell by turning the mechs against them, Cerberus luring a team to a Thresher Maw nest on Akuze and possibly in the first game, the implication that TIM lured the Collectors to Horizon by leaking that Ash/Kaidan would be there, the Pragia cell torturing children to create a super-biotic until Jack broke out and wiped out the facility, sending a team to retrieve a Reaper IFF without telling them about the risk of Indoctrination.

Expanded universe material also includes Cerberus deliberately having one of the agents agree to exchange an entire human colony to the Collectors for Reaper/Collector technology. These events are referred to in ME3 by Vega, who was the protagonist of Paragon Lost, the animated film in which they took place.

Cerberus are at best described as a paramilitary human extremist group, but we've seen clear indications that they are fully prepared to conduct terrorist activities if it furthers their political and ideological agenda. For instance, we've seen them use murder or assassination of their enemies, coercion and blackmail, numerous counts of experimentation on human and alien species, torture, kidnapping and the use of child soldiers.

All of which would be enough to charge them with countless war crimes in a human court on Earth, let alone whatever interstellar laws they've broken from the treaties that humanity has most definitely had to have signed upon joining the Citadel and admission to the Council.

And Cerberus was right to pursue her, given the advantage that her power could give to humanity in the field of biotic engineering.

She is a tool; Grayson was an idiot who believed in the savior idiocy, and Sanders is too limited mentally to understand the implications of how to advance our biotic knowledge. In the end, it didn't mean much for her; she died when my Shepard knowingly let Cerberus have Grissom Academy to produce greater numbers of biotic shock troopers. They'll be the vanguard of his pro-human army augmented by the Reapers post-war to bring the galaxy under the dominance of humanity, as is our due.

According to Admiral Hackett, Admiral Gerrel has been causing trouble along the borders of Turian space for years. As well, the fact that they exist with such a large fleet is troublesome. Indeed, I would hope to knock them off balance to finish what the Geth started. They're too much of a threat to leave alive, and their insularity leaves little room for the possibility of their compliance.

The way I see it, the ethics and morality of their experiences is tertiary to the benefits gleaned from their research. Look at what they did at Sanctuary, with the Collector Base. We learned how to control the Reapers, and that it was possible without having to rely on the ambiguous Leviathan race. And despite the negative outcome for the lives of researchers, let's look at their successes; Pragia created the strongest human biotic, which was their goal. Overlord created a means to control the Geth. Sanctuary proved that the Reapers could be controlled. The husks created on the various colony worlds undoubtedly proved useful in figuring out ways for understanding the nature of indoctrination and the husk generation process. And on Akuze, the information gleaned from the Thresher Maws probably had a useful benefit. The people who died? Nameless colonists and civilians who had nothing to offer worth keeping. Their deaths made them more useful than their lives.

The Rachni were an admitted mistake, but were an inspired decision. The Geth, as mentioned could indeed be controlled, and this was proven and allowed to continue. The husks, as mentioned, were also shown to be viable. Wilson had gone rogue at that point for Lazarus. Said Thresher Maw attack likely showed Cerberus how Threshers attack and hunt, possibly allowing them to develop both tactical counter-measures as well as how they could be deployed against hostile species. And TIM did lure the Collectors to Horizon; and his gamble paid off didn't it? It stopped a Collector invasion, and gave them key information on how the Collectors operate as well as proving that the countermeasures against them paid off. As far as Teltin was concerned, Jack was a success, even if the cell did go rogue (as is mentioned). And she was later put to good use against both the Collectors, and for Cerberus in ME3. And said team succeeded did they not? They laid the groundwork for Shepard to accomplish his mission. I see it as a victory.

Said cost was probably worth it, though it's possible said agent also could have been acting rogue. Regardless, the loss of a colony is insignificant next to the information about the Reapers and Collectors that would be gained.

Said laws won't matter for much longer when the Reaper-augmented human empire begins its expansion and vindicates Cerberus for their actions. Only the strong can be worthy of that. Humans are strong. Not all of us, but those that aren't, those limited by pathetic ethics and morality will be purged or enslaved. They serve now only to further the gains of their betters. And suffice to say, there won't be many aliens left (if any) who do not submit to the might of humanity.

I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute it to Voltaire - Voltaire

Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 17, 2016 17:20:26 GMT

But it produced results. Morality is nothing next to that. Still, she started to lose it. Better to put her down and find a more suitable candidate that's more malleable.

What results? 90% od Cerberus actions resulted in complete failure. I think there is this one dialogue about this in Citadel DLC. Seems like Shepard was their only success. For the most part inhumane ways mostly likely are going to backfire. And even if they don't this doesn't make it right.

It proved the concept of how biotics could be augmented to be more powerful than they were.

And yes, if they work, they're right. Might makes right, not feelings. Shepard would be wrong to characterize Cerberus as a failure: indeed, post-war, with the augmented Reaper forces, he'll enforce pax hominum among the galaxy for all time, with Cerberus as the model.

I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute it to Voltaire - Voltaire

Post by Sifr on Sept 17, 2016 17:27:11 GMT

But it produced results. Morality is nothing next to that. Still, she started to lose it. Better to put her down and find a more suitable candidate that's more malleable.

What results? 90% od Cerberus actions resulted in complete failure. I think there is this one dialogue about this in Citadel DLC. Seems like Shepard was their only success. For the most part inhumane ways mostly likely are going to backfire. And even if they don't this doesn't make it right.

Joker: You know, I miss the days when Cerberus was just hilariously incompetent. You know, when you two ran things.Jacob: Excuse me?Miranda: The only thing I was in charge of was the Lazarus Project, which, you will note, was very successful.Joker: "Hey Commander, this is Cerberus. We were studying some rachni, and they got loose and killed all our guys. Can you take care of that? It's once system over from where we hooked up some guy up to the geth... who then got loose and killed all our guys"Shepard: They did rack up quite a body count. And at least back then, it was usually their own bodies.Jacob: We know some cells were bad, but the Alliance and Council weren't doing anything and we were doing good work.Kasumi: And crunches. Lots of crunches.Shepard: Hey! Not okay Kasumi!Miranda: But we did bring Commander Shepard back.Shepard: And after taking down the Collectors, I cut ties with Cerberus, got loose... and started killing all their guys.Joker: For which we thank you.EDI: Jeff, you do remember that I am also a Cerberus project?Joker: Aw, crap.

Yeah, Cerberus projects, even the successful ones have this major tendency to go rogue and fight back against Cerberus. It's almost as if Cerberus have absolutely no idea what they're doing when they're screwing around with their mad science projects... whoever would have thought?