I'd like to see a situation where the Prince enveloped in light as predicted by Velen, leads the army against the Legion and Sargeras return but is swallowed by darkness. As the battle starts to go against them an unlikely "ally" arrives to help. The Pantheon returns to Azeroth to strike down or capture their former peer. However, before that plays out, Sargeras releases the remaining Old Gods. This causes wide spread panic and destruction across Azeroth, places the already strained resources of Azeroth into a position where they need to choose which side to back, and choose wisely as we learn the Titans of the Pantheon are not as lordly as they were believed to be.

first of all the vast majority of burning crusades villains made no sense AT ALL. illidan also had no plans to remake the well thats all fan speculation on how to try to explain just wtf the naga were even doing taking swamp water.

While it started as a fan theory, it has never been contradicted and as Kael used the acquired magic from netherstorm (and Anveena) to re-ignite the sunwell, I believe that it was tacitly confirmed. Even then, the in-game logic was that actual water was quite scarce on Outland, only really found in zang, terrokar, and Nagrand, so it was believed that if they could control the water supply, they could control the populace... wait a second, isn't that the plot of a bond movie.

Originally Posted by Immitis

illidan, kael'thas. both were antiheroes in warcraft 3 both were sympathetic and neither had ANY indication that they would be turned evil

Wrong, they are not anti-heroes, they are tragic characters, while an anti-hero is willing to cross lines heroes don't, a tragic character crosses over so far they become villains. To use comic books as a reference - think Wolverine (anti-hero) vs Magneto (tragic character)

Originally Posted by Immitis

illidan ONLY SHOWED UP TWICE IN HIS OWN EXPANSION and the first time it wasnt even him just his voice. they NEVER gave a suitable excuse for why illidan attacked shattrath they never explained why he suddenly started mistreated the draenei (oh yeah ill get to this little retcon later) under akama. none of it made any sense.

It wasn't his expansion... its called the Burning Crusade, we went there to stop the Burning Legion - stop being snowblinded by Illidan's "rock star" lore figure status. Illidan btw, also wanted to fight the Legion, but he was so unstable that "the enemy of my enemy" logic could not even be employed. On the flip side though, you can say that the lack of interaction with Illidan is why they changed their stance on interaction with the main bosses of an expansion. I would say that the criticism is also valid for how little we interacted against the Legion proper... Oh, we kill tons of demons, and sure, Kael and his BE's are working with the legion, but its just a huge jump from tons of red shirt demons--> Karazhan-->SWP.

Also, you make a huge logical misstep in stating Illidan ordered the attack on Shattrath. Vorenthal said the order came from Illidan, sure, but who did he get that order from... thats right Kael. Now, do we assume an order that made no sense actually came from Illidan due to his insanity... or do we believe the order actually came from KJ... who has a long standing historical feud with the Draenei... yeah, that order didn't come from Illidan.

As for mistreating the broken draenei. You seem to believe that he ever treated them well because you have this view of Illidan as a guy that is inherently good just is grossly misunderstood. There is absolutely nothing to state that from his defeat in Icecrown to the 5 years later that we get to Shadowmoon, that he was originally a good and benevolent leader, and then he switched. I think this is another storytelling trope of having traded one evil dictator (Magtheridon) for a worse evil dictator - in fact Akama states this in his narration of the black temple trailer.

Originally Posted by Immitis

kael'thas again made no sense why would someone so loyal to his own people side with the legion? a people who created the council of tirisfal you know the group dedicated to destroying the legion whenever they showed up. plus they never released the novel that shouldve explained it even though they said it was already written.

I think the issue here is one of perspective. As the player and lore reader, you have a lot more information at your disposal than Kael'thas does. Kael is trapped in Outland. He does not know what has become of his people still on Azeroth. He does not know that Anveena has begun the restoration of Quel'Thalas, he does not know that Sylvanus is helping Lorthemar rebuild Silvermoon and Blood Elf Culture, he does not know that the blood elves have joined the horde and therefore secured new allies that are not the bigoted humans. What he does know is that he has to keep his people in outland alive, and that Illidan is insane. I just don't understand why it's so hard for you to see that Kael joining the legion was his genuine belief that it was the best shot for his people - that joining the team he believed was going to win was what he thought ensured his people's survival.

Originally Posted by Immitis

now heres one of the biggest f ups in lore that subsequently caused the horror of me'dan.

Medan.... I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Well at least we agree on something.

Originally Posted by Immitis

thats right the draenei. they took a perfectly okay race the draenei and turned them into the malformed broken and connected them to the eredar just so they could have a "demony" race on the alliance. they retconned sargeras backstory, changed the eredars role in the legion to the nathrezim, poofed the draenei out of the air and retconned orc lore to make them fit. they also then retconned garona to be half orc half draenei instead of half orc half human.

So, I was a comic reader for many, many years, as such, I am just used to how retcons work. They all fall back to the trope of "everything you know is wrong." And sure while we know in reality it was an accident - in the context of the game world - Azerothians believed the man'ari eradar were all evil and corrupted Sargeras - they were wrong. The actual story came out with the tale of the Draenei once they arrived on Azeroth and you just have to accept that in continuous story-telling a retcon sometimes is needed. I actually think the Garona retcon made more sense though, as aside from her origin, there was never any grounds for Draenor humans.

Originally Posted by Immitis

also the demons did not flee to karazhan that never happened the reason there were any demons in kara is because they arrived their through the rip in space time and we managed to kill their leader before he summoned anymore.

I will have to re-check this, but I thought they were forces from Outland that took up residence in Karazhan as they were drawn to the rip in space/time, not that they had actually come through that rip. The reason for a legion outpost to be set up where there is a rip in space/time seem pretty obvious to me though. I would gladly accept more information on this though.

Originally Posted by Immitis

you know what wouldve made bc awesome? if kael'thas was the racial leader for the blood elves, turalyon and alleria had showed up, illidan was the main leader of the forces against the legion and an ALLY, they had given us demon hunter as the first new class. also if they had maybe used a bit more art assets.

And there we go... the real issue you have with TBC's narrative: you believe you could have done it better, you believe that you have a better grasp on who these characters were than the people who actually created them. You don't. You are the audience, it is Blizzards story to tell, and what the fictional characters "would" do is what the actual writers have them do. I don't agree that Peter Parker would make a deal with the devil that magically un-does his marriage to save his aunt, but hey, thats what happened. So, whether or not you agree with how the characters acted, that was the story as it was told - and just as your OPINION is that you didn't like it and would have made Illidan some bad ass leader of the forces against the legion, my OPINION is that I enjoyed the story as told.

Granted, I wish the presentation of that story was as nice as how there are using the game engine to tell Pandaria's story ; )

Or maybe it was Sargeras that was defeated, maybe the legion was claiming he was the "final titan" and so they must rebuild him. Maybe they are pushing into Azeroth once more to try and resurrect him with the wells of energy.

Just because you are a writer doesn't make your view of writing good. There are many terrible writers / books out there. (not saying you are terrible, just making a point)

TBC was the most connected, well written lore they had. It stemmed from their popular RTS games. Lore in mope is now made up on the spot...

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 04:19 PM ----------

He is only alive in the caverns of time instance: "Well of Eternity" where you, you know, go BACK IN TIME to help him...

You do realize that most of the lore in WoW was made upor actually fleshed out from more than a name in a map or a fleeting reference in the RTS games? Same with TBC. Besides major characters and a few locations, most of that was made up just for TBC. Same for every expansion so far. TBH, I was not expecting much other than gorgeous settings and smooth game play, but this has been hands down the best written lore and the most in-depth and exciting so far.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 09:36 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Jaylock

No duh Sherlock, we killed him in the Black Temple. He was referring to him still being alive after we had killed him... to which i responded.

Also, as a side note:

(thought bubble) "Jaylock wonders to himself how many of these posters actually played TBC while it was RELEVANT content..." "I wonder how many of these posters actually completed all of TBC raid content while it was RELEVANT content..."

We also killed Kael in TK. Actually cut off his head and yet he turned back up.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 09:39 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Jaylock

Its completely relevant to a lore discussion, because people who zip through content just to get into the next expansions content hardly are immersed in the lore of the expansion they zipped through. You did not do every single quest, read all the books, quest texts, and experience the lore in the raids like they were meant to be experienced.

If you were not a part of history, it seems less relevant and unimportant, which is what people who never played TBC while it was relevant content seem to always do / say about it.

Maybe Wrathion is trying to re-create the power that Khaz'goroth gave to Neltharion.

So he would be the only true "Aspect".

Walking with a friend in the dark is better than walking alone in the light.So I chose the path of the Ebon Blade, and not a day passes where i've regretted it.I am eternal, I am unyielding, I am UNDYING.I am Zethras, and my blood will be the end of you.

As I wrote above the Old gods do have similar goals than Sargeras. Of course Sargeras wants to destroy Azeroth but the Old gods want that too so that they are released. Sargeras would not stand any chance against the unleashed Old gods.

Yes he would, the Old Gods can't do anything to him. He would obliterate them. The quote you're referencing isn't solid canon like you seem to think, it's speculation from Krasus in the war of the ancients novel. The Old Gods wouldn't stand any chance against Sargeras imo.. they don't even have any physical powers apart from being large, they going to sit on him?

if that had been the original story i probably wouldve been okay with it too, hell they probably couldve done it in a way that didnt retcon the original lore but they didnt they retconned the lore from warcraft 3 and changed the entire origin story for sargeras

Kinda fits the bill that the RTS lore wasn't all neat and great like some would like to point out. The reason the Draenei story was changes was because Metzen forgot about the few sentences he wrote about them for the RTS many years before. I do agree I liked the old one and I like the new one as well, but it is a big retcon.

Nah they are definitely not overconfident there. I mean some quests in Northrend showed us that Yogg-saron is almost as big as the entire continent northrend. Let´s image N´zoth, Yogg-saron, C´thun and the other unmentioned Old gods (presumably a total of 5).

They would be so big and mighty that Sargeras would flee or beg for mercy. Many titans were needed to fight the Old gods and they were no way less powerful than Sargeras (of course he was the titan champion).

After all Sargeras is "just" a single Titan and would not stand a chance against the freed Old gods ... never ever.

How do you know how big Sargeras is? Only believeable source we have is that Archimonde and Mannoroth are like a flee to him in both size and power. His strenght alone nearly match the power of portal closing. He posses cosmic knowledge too so don't you think that he knows about existence of Old gods too? Old gods are not exclusive to Azeroth after all. Sargeras's job was to cleanse all planets out there in the great dark beyond. It's highly possible that he encountered Old gods on other planets before. If Sargeras wasn't so confident, he wouldn't have set his foot on Azeroth.

It was also stated in lore that Old Gods's armies were so vast and endless but combined might of them and elemental lords couldn't stop the mighty titans. So, I am pretty sure Old gods were not outnumbered here. It was the titans who were outnumbered. Titan didn't even need Sargeras to imprision 4 old gods and killed 1.