To me, the Tomato Nation quote isn't really about reaching a bar- it's about equality of the sexes in the sense that people would be free to pursue their chosen paths without being held back by their gender. Whether that means a woman who wants to excel in a male-dominated career field OR a man who wants to de-emphasize breadwinning in favor of doing more of the hands-on parenting that is usually the domain of mothers. People would be free to pursue what they want to pursue, not what they are expected to want to pursue.

And that's just in Western culture. There's a lot more ground to be won in many undeveloped or developing nations where women are still very much second-class citizens or even property.

Originally Posted by Tiltyred

I was teasing. Sorry -- I should have smilied, but I couldn't find the one I was looking for.

I live and work in an affluent and well-educated part of the world, so, no, I don't see a lot of women with those problems, but I am very aware that they exist.

But as far as what feminism has allowed me to do that I would not have been able to do if I were not a feminist:
1. Risk my financial well-being because of depending on a man to support me.
2. Have children because I see no function for myself other than to have children.
3. Neglect my education because of being raised to think that education of women is useless (since they will just get knocked up anyway).
4. Fear to tread my own path because I am so conditioned by stereotypes about what women should be that I can't see who I might be.
5. Feel I am incomplete and inferior because I am not in a relationship and actually prefer to live alone.
6. Feel common spirit with women all over the globe just because they are women, no matter what their circumstance.

Off the top of my head...

ETA: What do I do to promote my vision? Contribute to NOW and Planned Parenthood, and live my own life as fully realized as possible without apology for it not fitting in with what a woman's life should be according to many.

Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay

I don't think the label is important. It's the mindset. If you think you're a second-class citizen, you behave like one. You are self-limiting, in addition to being subject to the artificial limits and barriers imposed by society. You perpetuate the problem.

I agree. It is about the mindset, as Tilty's and Ivy's examples of what feminism means to their own personal lives echo that concept of a shift in mindset from societal expectations, to one of self-expectations.

For me, it manifests in questioning my own motives, wants, actions, inactions, reactions and, expectations of actions, using the lens of gender role, and thus aiming to apply critical thinking to the "why" of it all.

Originally Posted by Mystic Tater

Are women equal? No.

Should women be treated as equals through some sort of egalitarian delusion? Yes.

Well if it makes you feel happy, this did stimulate a thought process on how I relate to my girl, and how I agree with Marcel's distinctions between equality and fraternity, and how our relationship is based on the latter(as all true relationships should actually). Equality is egocentric while fraternity is hetero-centric. In that context, mutual love and respect are such that issues of equality become rather irrelevant and even comical actually.

To anyone who agrees with any of these statement, please share your reasoning for why.

For those that agree with those above statements because men and women are physically, and biologically unequal/different from one another.......please connect the dots to how such biological differences must then rationally translate to this notion of "should obey".

Thank you.

[anyone confused by this post, it came up in Vent chat, between myself, Patches and Peguy, but others are welcome to take a stab at it]

Here the real ones are - Equality simply means that one thing is equal to another. This is in terms of measurement. 5=5, 2=2, etc. However, because men are not women, they are not equal. The faulty presumption lies in the belief that if one thing is not equal to another, it is somehow inferior or superior. 5 is not superior to 4, and 4 is not inferior to 5. Something about our tendency to preserve our egos coerces us into believing that we are better or worse than others, which leads us into thinking that we ought to change ourselves or each other.

This is the pitfall of both feminist and anti-feminist movements - that women ought to be something other than what they are. Neither movement is completely without merit; and I have met women who felt that they were confined by feminist ideas and others who were liberated. This is both the result of engendered ideas and personal preference for them.

I can only sympathize. If I were to encourage women to do anything, I would encourage them to pursue their personal goals and for others not to hold them back unless they were planning to divide and conquer.