According to the v1.0 U.S. Army Vehicle Guide, there are approximately 15,400 U.S. troops based in Korea as of June, 2000.

AFAIK, canon makes no mention of the fate of these troops. If I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know.

Let's assume that I'm correct. From the existing descriptions of the fighting in Korea through the summer of 2000, it sounds like the PKA would have ceased to exist as a large, conventional military force. Considering the size of the fully-mobilized ROK military (even after sustaining massive casualties), and the relative paucity of Soviet forces in Korea, c. 2000 (4,000 troops and 19 MBTs listed in the v1.0, Soviet Vehicle Guide), it stands to reason that the ROK probably doesn't need (or want) all 15,400 of those American troops sticking around, consuming badly-needed supplies and such. The ROK would likely welcome, if not actively pursue, at least a partial evacuation of U.S. forces from the peninsula.

Assuming that is the case, where would those troops go? Is it possible that their arrival on the U.S. west coast in early 2001 might explain the seemingly inexplicable demobilization of the troops arriving returning from Europe care of Operation Omega? Perhaps troops returning home from Korea are committed to expelling the Mexican forces from California and the American Southwest.

Or, do the American troops remain in Korea past early 2001? If so, what are they up to (besides fighting the remains of the KPA and their Soviet allies)?

Red Maple (Challenge #36) suggests that PCs may be 8th Army, allied Chinese, South Korean, or Australian veterans of the Korean campaign that attempted to sail back to the US and shipwrecked in Vancouver. That's the only possibly relevant mention of Korea in Challenge, and it takes place some time between August 2000 and January 2001.

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Writer at The Vespers War - World War I equipment for v2.2

According to the v1.0 U.S. Army Vehicle Guide, there are approximately 15,400 U.S. troops based in Korea as of June, 2000.

AFAIK, canon makes no mention of the fate of these troops. If I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know.

Let's assume that I'm correct. From the existing descriptions of the fighting in Korea through the summer of 2000, it sounds like the PKA would have ceased to exist as a large, conventional military force. Considering the size of the fully-mobilized ROK military (even after sustaining massive casualties), and the relative paucity of Soviet forces in Korea, c. 2000 (4,000 troops and 19 MBTs listed in the v1.0, Soviet Vehicle Guide), it stands to reason that the ROK probably doesn't need (or want) all 15,400 of those American troops sticking around, consuming badly-needed supplies and such. The ROK would likely welcome, if not actively pursue, at least a partial evacuation of U.S. forces from the peninsula.

Assuming that is the case, where would those troops go? Is it possible that their arrival on the U.S. west coast in early 2001 might explain the seemingly inexplicable demobilization of the troops arriving returning from Europe care of Operation Omega? Perhaps troops returning home from Korea are committed to expelling the Mexican forces from California and the American Southwest.

Or, do the American troops remain in Korea past early 2001? If so, what are they up to (besides fighting the remains of the KPA and their Soviet allies)?

Discuss.

I imagine, as in Europe, some would stay and some would go. Did I hear you say you were doing the long awaited Korean/south east Asia source book!?

Red Maple (Challenge #36) suggests that PCs may be 8th Army, allied Chinese, South Korean, or Australian veterans of the Korean campaign that attempted to sail back to the US and shipwrecked in Vancouver. That's the only possibly relevant mention of Korea in Challenge, and it takes place some time between August 2000 and January 2001.

Thanks for the clue, Dark. I checked it out and sure, enough, you're right. It's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it reference. I'm impressed that you remembered it.

The puns on the other hand...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draq

I imagine, as in Europe, some would stay and some would go. Did I hear you say you were doing the long awaited Korean/south east Asia source book!?

The text as a whole for who might be the PC's (sorry for how its formatted - copied it right out of the preview)

Europe: The characters were evacuated
from Europe or found a way home on
their own. Upon arriving in North
America they moved steadily west, eventually
landing on Vancouver lsland
where they were recruited by the DRI.

Middle East: The characters decided
they wanted to go home, and after
searching around, found a vessel that fit
the bill. Their boat was wrecked or ran
aground off the west coast of Vancouver
lsland and the characters were subsequently
picked up by the DRI.

Korea: The characters were members
of the 8th US Army (or of allied Chinese,
South Korean, or Australian units), and
after leaving Korea by boat, were shipwrecked
on Vancouver island where
they were recruited by the DRI.

North America: The characters were never sent out of
North America. They may have served in the Pacific Northwest
theater of the war. After the collapse of the warring armies,
the characters found their way to Vancouver lsland where they were recruited

It also offers a tip that if you start a campaign there (i.e. begin your game there with completely new characters) then they would be from the 3rd Canadian Scottish Regiment which broke up just east of Vancouver, British Columbia in mid-2000

FYI Raellus - while its not canon I know there were discussions Chico and others had (which may or may not have involved Frank Frey - I remember them but have no idea what thread they were in - anyone else remember that?) where the 3rd Army used fuel and ships they had to evacuate the 8th Army to Iran and use those troops and vehicles in order to win the war in Iran with the Soviets (at the least the Marine troops but not sure about the rest)

I could easily see a Korean Omega being very similar to the European Omega - i.e. most of them come home (to the West Coast)or possibly even being used in Texas (Satellite Down says the Canal is still open which means that the US still has troops there and is in control of it) but the remainder go to Iran

The perfect ones to go to Iran would be the Marines - 3000 troops and 20 tanks- that would give the Marines in Iran (7000 men and 11 tanks) a very effective force to be able to kick the Soviets out - basically would form a Marine Army out of I Amphib Corps and II Amphib Corps - or you could combine all the Marine units in Korea into one Marine division and thus have three effective units of 3000 or more

They would probably drop the 25th off in Hawaii - 600 troops - but bring the rest back which is a good sized force

i.e.

2nd Infantry - 2000 troops, 4 M1
7th Light - 500 troops (and better yet they are CA troops from Fort Ord) - possibly even put remnants of the 91st and 221st as well as militia into it to bring it up to a 1000 or so since they would be native Californian troops
26th Infantry - 5000 troops, 3 LAV-75 (or M8 AGS if you do second edition)
41st Infantry - 2000 troops
45th Infantry - 2000 troops
163rd Armored Cav - 300 troops, 4 LAV-75 (or again M8 AGS)

so thats 11,800 troops, 4 M1 and 7 light tanks - more than enough to either take back a good sized piece of Texas or CA

I see one potential challenge with a US evacuation from Korea / Japan.

Unlike its European counterpart, ships would be sailing relatively close to Soviet waters, so I think its planners would have to be reasonably confident that there was no risk of attack from any remaining elements of the Soviet Pacific Fleet. A single submarine could potentially take out a large chunk of any evacuation fleet.

(We can debate backwards and forwards on this board about how many ships various Navies might have operational by that stage in the War, but that's not my point - my point is that unless those charged with actually planning such a mission in the T2K timeline were confident that the risk of Soviet naval action against the fleet was minimal (or they felt they had adequate defences against any such action) there would be an element of risk attached)

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A collection of articles written for the Twilight 2000 Role Playing Game

I see one potential challenge with a US evacuation from Korea / Japan.

Unlike its European counterpart, ships would be sailing relatively close to Soviet waters, so I think its planners would have to be reasonably confident that there was no risk of attack from any remaining elements of the Soviet Pacific Fleet. A single submarine could potentially take out a large chunk of any evacuation fleet.

(We can debate backwards and forwards on this board about how many ships various Navies might have operational by that stage in the War, but that's not my point - my point is that unless those charged with actually planning such a mission in the T2K timeline were confident that the risk of Soviet naval action against the fleet was minimal (or they felt they had adequate defences against any such action) there would be an element of risk attached)

I agree with you completely. The ability of the Soviet Pacific Fleet, whatever's left of it by late 2000, to interfere with the evacuation is an important consideration.

My initial thoughts are as follows. There is mention made in canon (the v1.0 U.S. Army Vehicle Guide) of Soviet commerce raiders inflicting casualties on seaborne reinforcements in early 1998. Here's my version,

American forces in Korea received very few reinforcements after 1997. The last major formation to arrive on the peninsula was the 6th Marine Division, deployed by sea on 2/19/98, which arrived badly depleted by attacks by Soviet commerce raiders suffered while en route. The shaken survivors were organized around the Division's 16th Marine Regiment and the unit finally entered combat on 3/7.

To me, "commerce raiders" suggests attack subs and possibly surface combatants or disguised, armed merchantmen operating alone or in small groups, not a sizeable fleet. So, that's one clue that Soviet Pacific Fleet naval strength has been significantly diminished by early '98. However, said commerce raiders nearly destroyed the 6th MarDiv, so it stands to reason that they could also maul an evac fleet.

Next, IIRC, canon mentions the port facilities at Vladivostok being hit by at least one nuke. So, the nearest major Soviet naval base/port would be on the Kamchatka Peninsula, over 1,000 miles from Busan.

Therefore, any evacuation fleet probably wouldn't have to contend with particularly strong Soviet naval forces, but roaming attack subs would still be a major threat, unless the evac fleet traveled in convoy with strong ASW escorts.

I don't know what the likelihood of Soviet attack subs roaming the Yellow Sea, East China Sea, or southern reaches of the Sea of Japan in late 2000. There might be one or two operating in the region at that time, but with the U.S., ROK, and Japanese navies operating in the same waters, there's also a pretty good chance that there's not.

A large convoy is a possibility, but I don't know if I want to go with a Pacific mirror of operation OMEGA. Perhaps the U.S. takes a shotgun approach, sending scattered singletons off in the hope that at least some of them find their way home. That seems callous and wasteful, but I really can't see much sense, strategically-speaking, in keeping 15,000+ American troops on glorified garrison duty in South Korea.

Quite a nice little strike force with plenty of air support as you can see.

Now how much hasn't been destroyed or is down for major mechanical failures is open to question, but enough to be a threat to a trans-Pacific movement is certainly possible.

And most likely by 2001 on the bottom of the ocean for sure - otherwise the Soviet destroyer group that took on the Virginia would have had more along with them

and Satellite Down made it very clear that the Soviet Pacific Navy was basically gone by 2001 - see the description of the ramshackle Soviet DD they put back in service in 1998 that the Virginia took out AFTER she was a beached wreck

Have a feeling any evacuation from Korea wont be facing Soviet ships if thats an accurate description of what they had left in the Pacific

Strategically, the transfer of at least some of the American troops in Korea to the Middle East makes some sense, but I have my doubts.

First of all, it would be an incredibly hard sell.

"Hey, I know you've been stuck here in Korea for 3-4 years, without a sniff of home, but now, instead of sending you back to the States, we're shipping you to Iran to fight the Soviets there."

"Uh, no."

I really think that desertion would be a big problem after such an announcement. I think a lot of American troops would rather stay behind in Korea and/or find their own way back to the U.S.A.

And wouldn't those troops be needed just as badly, if not more so, in CONUS? The RDF doesn't make it sound like the American forces stationed in the Middle East need reinforcements that badly.

All things considered, I think a return to the U.S.A. makes more sense on nearly every level, and it aligns better with canon than a transfer to Iran.

I dont think you would see much in the way of desertions - i.e. deserting means you are stuck in Korea versus being in the Middle East - meaning you at least would be in an area that had oil and thus a possibility of getting home via said oil

Secondly - when Omega happened they recruited from guys who had been fighting in Europe and were heading home - you would figure everyone would have signed up to go home - but instead 6000 American troops went to the RDF per canon instead - meaning that out of the 43,000 troops remaining in Europe in November of 2000 (per the start of Going Home) about 3000 stayed, 6000 went to the RDF and 34,000 went home

meaning per canon about 18 percent of the European veterans of four years of absolute hellish combat instead volunteered to go to the RDF to fight

given that amount having the Marines go to the RDF, the Hawaii troops go home to Hawaii and the rest go to CA makes a lot of sense - especially since the Marines would be going to join brother Marines still in combat in Iran

And most likely by 2001 on the bottom of the ocean for sure - otherwise the Soviet destroyer group that took on the Virginia would have had more along with them

and Satellite Down made it very clear that the Soviet Pacific Navy was basically gone by 2001 - see the description of the ramshackle Soviet DD they put back in service in 1998 that the Virginia took out AFTER she was a beached wreck

Have a feeling any evacuation from Korea wont be facing Soviet ships if thats an accurate description of what they had left in the Pacific

This is precisely why I made this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

(We can debate backwards and forwards on this board about how many ships various Navies might have operational by that stage in the War, but that's not my point - my point is that unless those charged with actually planning such a mission in the T2K timeline were confident that the risk of Soviet naval action against the fleet was minimal (or they felt they had adequate defences against any such action) there would be an element of risk attached)

You know that the Soviet Navy is in poor shape because it tells you that in a GDW module (it might be helpful for those of us who don't have that module if you could post the text you're referring to).

My point is in the T2K world staff officers in the USA and / or Korea / Japan considering a potential evacuation don't have that sort of information. They would have to deal with the intelligence that they had - and it's not as if they're going to be getting anything from satellites or Blackbird flights over Soviet naval bases. The mere rumour that there is a Soviet attack submarine active in the Pacific may be enough to make them reconsider putting 15,000 men aboard ships.

This isn't about the state of the Soviet Navy. It's about what state US planners think the Soviet Navy is in.

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A collection of articles written for the Twilight 2000 Role Playing Game

given that amount having the Marines go to the RDF, the Hawaii troops go home to Hawaii and the rest go to CA makes a lot of sense - especially since the Marines would be going to join brother Marines still in combat in Iran

It makes sense if you have ample supplies of fuel. Even going to Hawaii would be a fairly significant detour.

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A collection of articles written for the Twilight 2000 Role Playing Game

You know that the Soviet Navy is in poor shape because it tells you that in a GDW module (it might be helpful for those of us who don't have that module if you could post the text you're referring to).

My point is in the T2K world staff officers in the USA and / or Korea / Japan considering a potential evacuation don't have that sort of information. They would have to deal with the intelligence that they had - and it's not as if they're going to be getting anything from satellites or Blackbird flights over Soviet naval bases. The mere rumour that there is a Soviet attack submarine active in the Pacific may be enough to make them reconsider putting 15,000 men aboard ships.

This isn't about the state of the Soviet Navy. It's about what state US planners think the Soviet Navy is in.

wasnt referring to your post FYI - I was referring to dragoon500ly post about how big the Soviet fleet was

The module is called Satellite Down and its about the only canon reference to the Soviet fleet in the Pacific

Details how the USS Virginia and her task force (in a very unrealistic way in my opinion FYI) were engaged by a Soviet destroyer task force in March of 1999 - one that only the Virginia survived and only for long enough to beach herself on an island off the Baja Peninsula

It also is the only canon reference to the Panama Canal both still being operational and in US hands

As for the fight with the Soviet DD - she was brought out of mothballs in the last few months of 1998, described as a battered hulk of a destroyer low on fuel and looking for a quick kill and engaging the beached Virginia and getting taken out by the still active guns and missile systems on board

It also details how the Soviets by early 2001 could only send a sail powered ship to try to retrieve a very important satellite

It makes sense if you have ample supplies of fuel. Even going to Hawaii would be a fairly significant detour.

There is fuel in the Middle East - enough to be able to get the 6000 men from Europe to the Middle East at the end of 2000 and to keep a small USN task force still active.

Thus using that fuel to retrieve the Marines (or possibly more) from Korea would be definitely possible as a way to do a Korean Omega - especially since they literally are the only reinforcements that the 3rd Army could draw upon - unless they can get the three divisions CivGov sent to Yugoslavia to join up with MilGov

Assuming that the continuation of the Cold War in the T2K timeline pushed the Australian Government to roll out the Collins-class submarines faster than in real-life (and notwithstanding the significant teething troubles the early boats of the class suffered), I'd love for a few Royal Australian Navy diesel-electrics to have shepherded the US evacuation fleet out of Korean waters.

Even in real life HMAS Collins and HMAS Farncomb were both commissioned and in operation by the start of 1998. It would be nice to think that at least 4 of the Collins-class boats were fully operational in the T2K timeline before the war was in full swing. When operating as designed they're really capable vessels. One or two of them surviving to 2000 wouldn't be out of the question.

__________________ "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

Assuming that the continuation of the Cold War in the T2K timeline pushed the Australian Government to roll out the Collins-class submarines faster than in real-life (and notwithstanding the significant teething troubles the early boats of the class suffered), I'd love for a few Royal Australian Navy diesel-electrics to have shepherded the US evacuation fleet out of Korean waters.

Even in real life HMAS Collins and HMAS Farncomb were both commissioned and in operation by the start of 1998. It would be nice to think that at least 4 of the Collins-class boats were fully operational in the T2K timeline before the war was in full swing. When operating as designed they're really capable vessels. One or two of them surviving to 2000 wouldn't be out of the question.

Definitely like that idea - and at least one or two of them should have survived any conflict with Indonesia

One point we need to consider - Omega was only possible by the discovery of the tanker of oil. Admittedly the Korean evacuation is smaller but do they have the required oil?

Considering Australia has troops in Korea but is fighting a war with Indonesia, would they offer Australian citizenship and land (not a hard offer to make) in return for X years service in the Australian Army?

Thats why I am thinking a Korean Omega would be one that would be powered by oil from the Middle East

I.e. the 3rd Army (the RDF) arranges for enough oil to get the troops out of Korea and back home to the US but the price being that the Marines (at the very least) will be transported, with their tanks, to the Middle East to reinforce the RDF and give them what they need to finally beat the Soviets

That way they get their reinforcements and the rest go home

Or instead of a Korean Omega being to the US and partially the Middle East its actually the Middle East whole and entire - i.e. per what Chico was promulgating - and bring all 15,000 plus troops and their tanks to be able to give the RDF more than enough fire power to not only beat the Soviets but hold the area for as long as need be to get oil flowing back home again

then once that occurs sending back the whole RDF at a later date (3rd and 8th Army) - which would be more than enough to really take on Mexico, New America, or any remaining Soviet troops

One point we need to consider - Omega was only possible by the discovery of the tanker of oil. Admittedly the Korean evacuation is smaller but do they have the required oil?

Good point, James. As Olefin has pointed out, there's lots of oil in the Middle East but getting it from there to Korea is a lot easier said than done. If it was easy, then the European Omega wouldn't have had to really on dumb luck for its fuel.

I'm thinking that I probably won't go the OMEGA route with the U.S. forces in Korea. I want to differentiate between the campaign settings at least a bit. A Korean OMEGA is a bit too derivative. I think I'll include a mission option that hints at a possible partial evac, but leaves the details (i.e. the numbers of troops leaving and their planned destination/s) up to the GM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Langham

Considering Australia has troops in Korea but is fighting a war with Indonesia, would they offer Australian citizenship and land (not a hard offer to make) in return for X years service in the Australian Army?

James, who are "they"? The Koreans or Indonesians? I can't parse this wording.

Good point, James. As Olefin has pointed out, there's lots of oil in the Middle East but getting it from there to Korea is a lot easier said than done. If it was easy, then the European Omega wouldn't have had to really on dumb luck for its fuel.

I'm thinking that I probably won't go the OMEGA route with the U.S. forces in Korea. I want to differentiate between the campaign settings at least a bit. A Korean OMEGA is a bit too derivative. I think I'll include a mission option that hints at a possible partial evac, but leaves the details (i.e. the numbers of troops leaving and their planned destination/s) up to the GM.

James, who are "they"? The Koreans or Indonesians? I can't parse this wording.

Although the world economic collapse caused by the Twilight War brought chaos to both North and South Korea, South Korea, with the impressive industrialization it had achieved by the war's beginning, was able to recover much more quickly than its northern neighbor. Given South Korea's economic health in the first half of the 21st century, communist North Korea accepted annexation by the democratic South almost without quarrel. Through the rest of that century, the unified nation worked to spread its southern industrial power through the North. During this period, Japan invested heavily in Korea's development, working to economically dominate the nation's growing industry. But Manchuria, seeking to avoid the establishment of a Japanese stronghold on the continent, expelled the Japanese and pressured Korea into nationalizing the facilities that Japan had built. Through the 22nd and 23rd centuries, Korea worked closely with Manchuria, ever in the larger nation's shadow. In 2300, Korea is a very modern industrial nation, but it is definitely dominated politically by Manchuria. Korean citizens compare favorably with Texans in terms of quality of life, and they do not seem to view Manchuria's domination as onerous, preferring it to domination by Japan.

FYI one idea on doing an evac would take a while but could be done with Australian help

Ever heard of the sail passenger ship Wind Song - she was a sail powered passenger ship that could carry 112 passengers that was involved in Pacific cruises - obviously they would jam a lot more into her - it is one way to evac several hundred at a time out of Korea - but thats a mighty slow evac process with 15,000 troops to get home

There is another possible way to get them to Australia - Four coal-fired, steam-powered ships were used to transport bauxite from Weipa in far north Queensland to QAL on Gladstone Harbour - all built in the 1980's and retired the last of them in 2012 - the River Boyne

Could those ships be used to evac troops from Korea? Not sure what their range would be and if they could actually reach Korea, possibly coal up there and then be able to get back to Australia.

FYI one idea on doing an evac would take a while but could be done with Australian help

Ever heard of the sail passenger ship Wind Song - she was a sail powered passenger ship that could carry 112 passengers that was involved in Pacific cruises - obviously they would jam a lot more into her - it is one way to evac several hundred at a time out of Korea - but thats a mighty slow evac process with 15,000 troops to get home

There is another possible way to get them to Australia - Four coal-fired, steam-powered ships were used to transport bauxite from Weipa in far north Queensland to QAL on Gladstone Harbour - all built in the 1980's and retired the last of them in 2012 - the River Boyne

Could those ships be used to evac troops from Korea? Not sure what their range would be and if they could actually reach Korea, possibly coal up there and then be able to get back to Australia.

This is probably more cinematic than practical, but one dramatic way of doing it would be to use the various large tall ships that are active - USCGC Eagle, Elissa (a barquentine built in 1877), Gazela (a 1901 fishing bark that hauled dories to the Grand Banks), Niagara (the rebuilt USS Niagara of 1813), Avany (now Peacemaker, a 400 ton bark), Star of India (ex-Euterpe, an iron-hulled windjammer), and Rose (now Surprise, the replica frigate used in the Master & Commander film). The Charles W. Morgan (an 1841 whaler) may also be available.

The Constellation is unavailable (it was condemned as unseaworthy in 1994 and wasn't sailed again until 2004 in our timeline, and the Twilight War would likely make her less of a priority), and the Constitution is probably unavailable (she was dry-docked from 1992 to 1995 and not ready to sail until 1997).

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Australia has oil reserves. In the 1990s an infinitesimal fraction as developed as the major world oil players, but there nonetheless. Fuel oil for ships doesn't need sophisticated refining. One possibility for moving troops around might be some P&O cruise ships based in Australian ports. Unwilling or unable to get the vessels back to the UK or the US, the company couldn't do much to prevent the vessels being commandeered by the Australian government once the global naval war was in full swing. One or two may have survived to 2000. They might not have been worked particularly hard by then either.

__________________ "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli