Who's in the hunt for Cabrera?
Seems like he'll be a Cardinal. I don't think there's a whole lot of interest in him. Anaheim supposedly has dropped out of the running.

Baby Fisk

12-15-2004, 10:50 AM

Seems like he'll be a Cardinal. I don't think there's a whole lot of interest in him. Anaheim supposedly has dropped out of the running.So, which WSI member will be the first one to start a "Let's Get Cabrera!" thread?

Dadawg_77

12-15-2004, 10:58 AM

Why an overprice Cabrera let go and get what the Sox desperatly needed coming into this offseason and need it even more now, trade Garica to Boston for Youkilis, That SS they have in the system forgot his name, and one of their young stud arms in the minors.

Dolanski

12-15-2004, 11:03 AM

Who's in the hunt for Cabrera?
Not Us!

soltrain21

12-15-2004, 11:23 AM

Why an overprice Cabrera let go and get what the Sox desperatly needed coming into this offseason and need it even more now, trade Garica to Boston for Youkilis, That SS they have in the system forgot his name, and one of their young stud arms in the minors.

Trade Garcia? What?

NonetheLoaiza

12-15-2004, 11:25 AM

Why an overprice Cabrera let go and get what the Sox desperatly needed coming into this offseason and need it even more now, trade Garica to Boston for Youkilis, That SS they have in the system forgot his name, and one of their young stud arms in the minors.
how does that make the Sox a better team?

A. Cavatica

12-15-2004, 11:32 AM

Why an overprice Cabrera let go and get what the Sox desperatly needed coming into this offseason and need it even more now, trade Garica to Boston for Youkilis, That SS they have in the system forgot his name, and one of their young stud arms in the minors.
Least comprehensible post of the week. I've read it twice and I still have no idea what point you're making.

Dadawg_77

12-15-2004, 11:41 AM

Least comprehensible post of the week. I've read it twice and I still have no idea what point you're making.
Let the idea of getting Cabrera go. And pickup what the Sox need, OBP, not speedy guys who don't walk. Trade overrated Freddy for three pieces that could help the Sox next year till 2010. Youkilis, Red Sox stud SS (forgot his name) and one of their young good arms in their system.

How does this help the Sox> First the Sox free up about 8 million. Which combined with money saved by trading Lee, could be use to get Clement and Perez, and should be better then Freddy's mid 4 ERA production. The Sox also fill a major hole at 3rd replacing Crede with Youkilis and have a long term solution at SS, which the they do not currently have.

Flight #24

12-15-2004, 11:52 AM

Let the idea of getting Cabrera go. And pickup what the Sox need, OBP, not speedy guys who don't walk. Trade overrated Freddy for three pieces that could help the Sox next year till 2010. Youkilis, Red Sox stud SS (forgot his name) and one of their young good arms in their system.

How does this help the Sox> First the Sox free up about 8 million. Which combined with money saved by trading Lee, could be use to get Clement and Perez, and should be better then Freddy's mid 4 ERA production. The Sox also fill a major hole at 3rd replacing Crede with Youkilis and have a long term solution at SS, which the they do not currently have.Freddy's road WHIP was 1.09 & his ERA 3.59. A lot of his 4. ERA is driven by USCF, and IMO clement and Perez will be hard-pressed to post an ERA significantly better than mid-4s. They'll also each be about as expensive as Freddy given the way contracts are going right now.

You only do that type of deal if you're rebuilding, which I dont' think the Sox are trying to do. They're trying to create a team that can contend for the division now. Hanley Ramirez (the Boston SS) may be great in 2-3 years, but by then if you dont' make a run at the playoffs, you'll be having to say bye bye to Buehrle, Koney, Frank because attendance will plummet and payroll will drop.

EDIT: I do agree that Cabrera shouldn't be ont heir radar, except as a fallback option in the event that they can't get Clement/Perez. even then, I think I'd rather split the $$$ and shore up C, 2B, and/or 3B with the $$ rather than spending it on overrated Cabrera.

wdelaney72

12-15-2004, 12:01 PM

Agreed.

YOU DON'T TRADE AWAY AN ALL-STAR STARTING PITCHER!

Least comprehensible post of the week. I've read it twice and I still have no idea what point you're making.

Dadawg_77

12-15-2004, 12:04 PM

Freddy's road WHIP was 1.09 & his ERA 3.59. A lot of his 4. ERA is driven by USCF, and IMO clement and Perez will be hard-pressed to post an ERA significantly better than mid-4s. They'll also each be about as expensive as Freddy given the way contracts are going right now.

You only do that type of deal if you're rebuilding, which I dont' think the Sox are trying to do. They're trying to create a team that can contend for the division now. Hanley Ramirez (the Boston SS) may be great in 2-3 years, but by then if you dont' make a run at the playoffs, you'll be having to say bye bye to Buehrle, Koney, Frank because attendance will plummet and payroll will drop.

EDIT: I do agree that Cabrera shouldn't be ont heir radar, except as a fallback option in the event that they can't get Clement/Perez. even then, I think I'd rather split the $$$ and shore up C, 2B, and/or 3B with the $$ rather than spending it on overrated Cabrera.
I am not sure where I read this but Kenny "knows" who he wants on his 2007 roster and not everyone is in the organization already. If true, then it appears the Sox are really rebuilding. Think of Neyers quote in that chat. and hopefully Anderson, Sweeney and McCarthy will be ready then. Looking at the contracts situation it has some creditability.

I think Clement and Pezez will out preform Freddy next year.

FightingBillini

12-15-2004, 12:06 PM

Why an overprice Cabrera let go and get what the Sox desperatly needed coming into this offseason and need it even more now, trade Garica to Boston for Youkilis, That SS they have in the system forgot his name, and one of their young stud arms in the minors.:kukoo:
Someone needs to create a "this POST sucks tag". Wow.

Baby Fisk

12-15-2004, 12:08 PM

IIRC, Dadawg hated the trade for Garcia in the first place.

FightingBillini

12-15-2004, 12:09 PM

I think Clement and Pezez will out preform Freddy next year.
I think you are wrong. I thought you were smarter, but this appears to be another case of "whoever we have sucks. Whoever anyone else has is better". Garcia is a top pitcher. Live with it.

Flight #24

12-15-2004, 12:10 PM

I am not sure where I read this but Kenny "knows" who he wants on his 2007 roster and not everyone is in the organization already. If true, then it appears the Sox are really rebuilding. Think of Neyers quote in that chat. and hopefully Anderson, Sweeney and McCarthy will be ready then. Looking at the contracts situation it has some creditability.

I think Clement and Pezez will out preform Freddy next year.I wouldn't equate Kenny's chart showing who he projects for 2007 with reqbuilding. I'd think every team has to anticipate and prepare for some turnover, and that's likely what the chart does.

I can't recall the specific quote, but last year KW said something to the effect that one of his goals was to increase their revenue base so that they could operate more like a major market/large payroll team. IMO that drives a reasonable part of his moves. He knows that if he takes any steps back, i.e. rebuilding, he'll end up with significantly less resources, so he's trying to make sure the team's competitive and gets that one breakthrough that he can then use to up payroll significantly, which will in turn hopefully result in a cycle of increased attendance->revenues->higher payroll.

Thus he's unlikely to make any moves where we trade established players for prospects unless he absolutely has to. The Lee trade doesn't qualify because that's made to acquire established players, i.e. Clement/Perez.

Dadawg_77

12-15-2004, 02:02 PM

I think you are wrong. I thought you were smarter, but this appears to be another case of "whoever we have sucks. Whoever anyone else has is better". Garcia is a top pitcher. Live with it. No, while Clement has a higher chance of injury then Garcia, I think he will have a better year next year. Last year Clement and Perez out preformed Garcia as measured by ERA+ which is park and league adjusted, albit not by much. Freddy posted a 121 (110 w/ Sox), Clement posted 123, Perez a 127. So at worst (assuming no injuries) you will equal out pitching wise with Garcia + Clement/Perez vs Perez and Clement but with the trade the offense is improved tremendously thus the team will win more games.

Dadawg_77

12-15-2004, 02:05 PM

IIRC, Dadawg hated the trade for Garcia in the first place.
Still do and my projection of what Freddy would do with the Sox was pretty much on.

kittle42

12-15-2004, 02:14 PM

Still do and my projection of what Freddy would do with the Sox was pretty much on.
Why are people still making me wish failure for Jeremy Reed?

santo=dorf

12-15-2004, 02:22 PM

Why an overprice Cabrera let go and get what the Sox desperatly needed coming into this offseason and need it even more now, trade Garica to Boston for Youkilis, That SS they have in the system forgot his name, and one of their young stud arms in the minors.I'm going to save this post for the future when you rip on Ken Williams' decisions. This could be the stupidest trade idea I have ever seen (including MLB boards.) Garcia just signed a 3 year extension which is looking like a steal in this market, and you want to trade him for a guy that Beane has a major chubby for.

Garcia for Youkilis and other junk.
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:

Dadawg_77

12-15-2004, 02:31 PM

I'm going to save this post for the future when you rip on Ken Williams' decisions. This could be the stupidest trade idea I have ever seen (including MLB boards.) Garcia just signed a 3 year extension which is looking like a steal in this market, and you want to trade him for a guy that Beane has a major chubby for.

Garcia for Youkilis and other junk.
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:
Ok, but the trade was one part of a three point plan so please don't ignore the rest of the plan, which makes up for the loss of Gracia. Secondly, the Sox desperately need OBP guys, and Youkilis can provide that cheaply while also filling a major hole at third. Thirdly, the Sox need a long term solution at SS and the Red Sox prospect, Hanley Ramirez, could provide that.

Flight #24

12-15-2004, 02:40 PM

Ok, but the trade was one part of a three point plan so please don't ignore the rest of the plan, which makes up for the loss of Gracia. Secondly, the Sox desperately need OBP guys, and Youkilis can provide that cheaply while also filling a major hole at third. Thirdly, the Sox need a long term solution at SS and the Red Sox prospect, Hanley Ramirez, could provide that.
My problem is that the timing of the benefits from the trade are mostly deferred, whereas the majority of the team is structured to win in the next 2 years. Cross purposes don't make for a good combo there. By the time you're reaping the benefits of Ramirez, the BoSox pitching prospect, and possibly even Youkikis - you've lost Frank, Paulie, and likely Buehrle.

Better to take your shot by focusing on signing an FA pitcher. If that doesn't work, you can deal Garcia or whoever else in 1-2 years and rebuild using the prospects and the $$$ you'sll save from the departures of the guys I noted.

My problem is that the timing of the benefits from the trade are mostly deferred, whereas the majority of the team is structured to win in the next 2 years. Cross purposes don't make for a good combo there. By the time you're reaping the benefits of Ramirez, the BoSox pitching prospect, and possibly even Youkikis - you've lost Frank, Paulie, and likely Buehrle.

Better to take your shot by focusing on signing an FA pitcher. If that doesn't work, you can deal Garcia or whoever else in 1-2 years and rebuild using the prospects and the $$$ you'sll save from the departures of the guys I noted.
Youkilis should help the team right away. Ramirez and the pitching prospect would be year to three down the road when Anderson, Sweeney and McCarthy are starting to hit full stride.

IMO for this year only, Clement,Perez,Youkilis > the Garcia,Clement/Perez, Crede since Youkilis > Crede and Perez = Clement = Garcia.

Flight #24

12-15-2004, 03:04 PM

Youkilis should help the team right away. Ramirez and the pitching prospect would be year to three down the road when Anderson, Sweeney and McCarthy are starting to hit full stride.

IMO for this year only, Clement,Perez,Youkilis > the Garcia,Clement/Perez, Crede since Youkilis > Crede and Perez = Clement = Garcia.
Well, we disagree on Garcia's value, but also I think that Boston would probably rather sign Clement/Perez than trade for Garcia if they value them equivalently as you do.

kittle42

12-15-2004, 03:05 PM

Youkilis should help the team right away. Ramirez and the pitching prospect would be year to three down the road when Anderson, Sweeney and McCarthy are starting to hit full stride.

IMO for this year only, Clement,Perez,Youkilis > the Garcia,Clement/Perez, Crede since Youkilis > Crede and Perez = Clement = Garcia.
What is the point of talking about any of this? Wouldn't our time be better spent discussing things that actually might happen than dancing around in fantasy land?

Baby Fisk

12-15-2004, 03:18 PM

What is the point of talking about any of this? Wouldn't our time be better spent discussing things that actually might happen than dancing around in fantasy land?I concur. The Clubhouse is an exemplary source of reasoned, fact-based discussions at the moment.

Dadawg_77

12-15-2004, 04:47 PM

What is the point of talking about any of this? Wouldn't our time be better spent discussing things that actually might happen than dancing around in fantasy land?
With Captin Chaos at the helm I need :prozac to talk about reality.