botogamerwrote:
Jk, seriously thanks for the talk. It has been really enriching so far, I mean that. It is for the sake of a better world that we should strive to engage in these dialogues. Anyways sorry for making you read so much, I don't even want to read what I typed haha. For doing that though, you sir are awesome!

The problem is that while things ARE indeed moving forward in the US, a lot of it has more to do with political correctness and political pressure rather than christianity getting better.
Sure, people are getting more and more educated, which is good, but that's the result of education, not the religion getting better. And many are still reluctant to accepting them. So unless we can get that to work in muslim countries, which definetly will not happen any time soon, lest a MAJOR paradigm shift happens, then there's no hope for it to get better any time soon.
And again, while the political aspect may be going forward, the part of the population is vastly different in many cases.

While the evils of human nature will indeed not vanish, getting rid of religion WOULD help to make the world better, as many of the prejudices (like that of homosexuals) percists today largely because of religious ignorance towards factual science. Not to mention oppression of women, the forcing children to marry, etc.
In addition to that, religion is a powerful tool for brainwashing and mass-control, which will make people obedient and not willing to question or doubt their cause, as they believe it is written by an almighty entity that cannot be wrong. Intentional ignorance is a big consequence of religion.
Which is a lot more powerful than something as a mere political standpoint.

And while religion HAS indeed done its share of positive things throughout the history, it has outplayed its part. Now we have science. We have knowledge. We have humanism. All the positive morals that religious scriptures gave can now be told through all of these things. We simply do not need it religion anymore for these things.
Of course, religious conviction can cause people to follow a good path as strongly as some bad people do theirs, which is a very good thing.
But these people make up a very small minority compared to those that are either extremist of just average religious.

While there were obviously other factors involved, I find it rather dumb to claim that it had NOTHING to do with islam.
If it didn't, he wouldn't have been shouting "Allahu Akbar" when he did it. Nor would he repeatedly make reference to Allah and muslims.

botogamerwrote:
Jk, seriously thanks for the talk. It has been really enriching so far, I mean that. It is for the sake of a better world that we should strive to engage in these dialogues. Anyways sorry for making you read so much, I don't even want to read what I typed haha. For doing that though, you sir are awesome!

The problem is that while things ARE indeed moving forward in the US, a lot of it has more to do with political correctness and political pressure rather than christianity getting better.
Sure, people are getting more and more educated, which is good, but that's the result of education, not the religion getting better. And many are still reluctant to accepting them. So unless we can get that to work in muslim countries, which definetly will not happen any time soon, lest a MAJOR paradigm shift happens, then there's no hope for it to get better any time soon.
And again, while the political aspect may be going forward, the part of the population is vastly different in many cases.

While the evils of human nature will indeed not vanish, getting rid of religion WOULD help to make the world better, as many of the prejudices (like that of homosexuals) percists today largely because of religious ignorance towards factual science. Not to mention oppression of women, the forcing children to marry, etc.
In addition to that, religion is a powerful tool for brainwashing and mass-control, which will make people obedient and not willing to question or doubt their cause, as they believe it is written by an almighty entity that cannot be wrong. Intentional ignorance is a big consequence of religion.
Which is a lot more powerful than something as a mere political standpoint.

And while religion HAS indeed done its share of positive things throughout the history, it has outplayed its part. Now we have science. We have knowledge. We have humanism. All the positive morals that religious scriptures gave can now be told through all of these things. We simply do not need it religion anymore for these things.
Of course, religious conviction can cause people to follow a good path as strongly as some bad people do theirs, which is a very good thing.
But these people make up a very small minority compared to those that are either extremist of just average religious.

While there were obviously other factors involved, I find it rather dumb to claim that it had NOTHING to do with islam.
If it didn't, he wouldn't have been shouting "Allahu Akbar" when he did it. Nor would he repeatedly make reference to Allah and muslims.

I doubt he even knew everything about his religion, or whatever he claims to believe in.
He probably thought he was trying to send a message to the world when he simply just reminded us that there are fools in the world.

Gyavawrote:
I doubt he even knew everything about his religion, or whatever he claims to believe in.
He probably thought he was trying to send a message to the world when he simply just reminded us that there are fools in the world.

I don't see why it is so unlikely that he would actually know his religion.
I mean, it's not like Islam is a religion that condemn these types of actions...

I'm sure Muslims and Islamic people are, for the most part, perfectly peaceful people. I'm not scared to be near them. I don't know enough about their religion to form an educated opinion about it. However, I do not like the radical Muslims that bomb places or kill others. Of course, many religions have radicals like this. If the radicals would stop there probably wouldn't be a problem. But you rarely see good news on TV so when you hear about Muslims and Islamics (is that a correct word...it's underlined in red) on the news it's always the bad ones. So, some people probably think all of them are like that

I don't see the point of this image. It's in bad taste and adds nothing to the discussion. I do like and greatly respect Richard Dawkins however.

The image was merely a somewhat humorous, on the spearhead but truthful reply to the "denial" comment. It wasn't really intended to add anything particular. More to be an anecdote of sorts.
As for it being in bad taste... yeah maybe. But I think some muslims may, if they see it, reflect upon what the message of it is. And that reflection makes it worth a bit of bad taste, in my opinion.

I don't see the point of this image. It's in bad taste and adds nothing to the discussion. I do like and greatly respect Richard Dawkins however.

The image was merely a somewhat humorous, on the spearhead but truthful reply to the "denial" comment. It wasn't really intended to add anything particular. More to be an anecdote of sorts.
As for it being in bad taste... yeah maybe. But I think some muslims may, if they see it, reflect upon what the message of it is. And that reflection makes it worth a bit of bad taste, in my opinion.

Once a muslim becomes an adult , his/her decisions are her own. There is no killing or anything such, although some muslim families take their religion so seriously, if you give it up, you may as well be dead to them. (e.g uneducated afghan hill-men)

There are people following other religions out there that suffer the same fate, where their family/society takes religion so seriously, if you abandon it you might as well drop dead.

VeniVidiVici-
Once a muslim becomes an adult , his/her decisions are her own. There is no killing or anything such, although some muslim families take their religion so seriously, if you give it up, you may as well be dead to them. (e.g uneducated afghan hill-men)

There are people following other religions out there that suffer the same fate, where their family/society takes religion so seriously, if you abandon it you might as well drop dead.

Saying "it's their decision" is so easy. The reality on the other hand, is that many will be disowned by both friends and family for leaving.
Now granted, that is something that we find in all religions, but being that muslims are, for some reason, generally MORE dangerously devoted to their faith than others seem to be, it is far more commonplace.
In muslim countries, the punishment for apostasy is death. That is not a choice.

Often times, it can go further than that as well. In 2000, a study was conducted among muslims in Norway where they were asked what they would do if they found out that someone in their close family was gay.
2 out of 54 muslims said they would kill the person. Even if it was their own sibling. A third said they would either kill the person, or kill themselves.
Now granted, that was indeed 13 years ago, which IS a considerable amount of time, but it is still a scary number. Especially concidering that those were studies that weren't anonymous. If they were, the depressing numbers could've been even higher.

And judging from the situation out in the world buy n large, islam doesn't seem to have gotten much softer on gay people.
Every single country in the world where you will get executed for being gay is a muslim country.

VeniVidiVici-
Once a muslim becomes an adult , his/her decisions are her own. There is no killing or anything such, although some muslim families take their religion so seriously, if you give it up, you may as well be dead to them. (e.g uneducated afghan hill-men)

There are people following other religions out there that suffer the same fate, where their family/society takes religion so seriously, if you abandon it you might as well drop dead.

Saying "it's their decision" is so easy. The reality on the other hand, is that many will be disowned by both friends and family for leaving.
Now granted, that is something that we find in all religions, but being that muslims are, for some reason, generally MORE dangerously devoted to their faith than others seem to be, it is far more commonplace.
In muslim countries, the punishment for apostasy is death. That is not a choice.

Often times, it can go further than that as well. In 2000, a study was conducted among muslims in Norway where they were asked what they would do if they found out that someone in their close family was gay.
2 out of 54 muslims said they would kill the person. Even if it was their own sibling. A third said they would either kill the person, or kill themselves.
Now granted, that was indeed 13 years ago, which IS a considerable amount of time, but it is still a scary number. Especially concidering that those were studies that weren't anonymous. If they were, the depressing numbers could've been even higher.

And judging from the situation out in the world buy n large, islam doesn't seem to have gotten much softer on gay people.
Every single country in the world where you will get executed for being gay is a muslim country.

Same with hardcore Christians , and your point is?? And do I need to reitterate myself? No where does it say there is death for apostosy in Islam. People that do it aren't following it. In fact I heard they've been finally removing that law.

As for gayness same with Christianity, not accepted. Even judism. They just stay quiet about it.
Bottom line Muslims are people like you and me, and no ones perfect. Some methods do seem outdated, but hey what year did it come around?

VeniVidiVici-
Once a muslim becomes an adult , his/her decisions are her own. There is no killing or anything such, although some muslim families take their religion so seriously, if you give it up, you may as well be dead to them. (e.g uneducated afghan hill-men)

There are people following other religions out there that suffer the same fate, where their family/society takes religion so seriously, if you abandon it you might as well drop dead.

Saying "it's their decision" is so easy. The reality on the other hand, is that many will be disowned by both friends and family for leaving.
Now granted, that is something that we find in all religions, but being that muslims are, for some reason, generally MORE dangerously devoted to their faith than others seem to be, it is far more commonplace.
In muslim countries, the punishment for apostasy is death. That is not a choice.

Often times, it can go further than that as well. In 2000, a study was conducted among muslims in Norway where they were asked what they would do if they found out that someone in their close family was gay.
2 out of 54 muslims said they would kill the person. Even if it was their own sibling. A third said they would either kill the person, or kill themselves.
Now granted, that was indeed 13 years ago, which IS a considerable amount of time, but it is still a scary number. Especially concidering that those were studies that weren't anonymous. If they were, the depressing numbers could've been even higher.

And judging from the situation out in the world buy n large, islam doesn't seem to have gotten much softer on gay people.
Every single country in the world where you will get executed for being gay is a muslim country.

Same with hardcore Christians , and your point is?? And do I need to reitterate myself? No where does it say there is death for apostosy in Islam. People that do it aren't following it. In fact I heard they've been finally removing that law.

As for gayness same with Christianity, not accepted. Even judism. They just stay quiet about it.
Bottom line Muslims are people like you and me, and no ones perfect. Some methods do seem outdated, but hey what year did it come around?

I know it's the same with hardcore christians. I said it right there:

Now granted, that is something that we find in all religions

But like I ALSO said:

... but being that muslims are, for some reason, generally MORE dangerously devoted to their faith than others seem to be, it is far more commonplace.

As for apostasy in islam:" So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them." - Qur'an 4:89

"Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - Sahih Bukhari 4:52:260

"Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."" - Sahih Bukhari 9:83:17

etc.
And there are many more verses that undoubtedly encourage the killing of apostates, in addition to several ambigous verses that can be translated either way.
So yes. Islam DOES encourage the killing of apostates. In fact, according to its prophets, it mandates it. (Which means that the muslims that DON'T do such things, are actually following islam LESS than those that does do such things).

And even if it didn't, then that doesn't change the fact that it still happens. How a religion is supposedly "meant" to be read has no value what so ever when judging it. The only thing that matters is what one sees when one looks at its followers. What one sees when people practice it.

And what we see in the muslim world, where Islam reigns, is horrible. Absolutely despicable.
And the year it came about has nothing to do with it. When ideas and ideologies become outdated in light of new knowledge, we leave that shit behind. We don't take it with us. Such will not do anything but drag humanity as a collective down.

And yes, christianity and judaism (I don't know why you say "even judaism", as judaism is worse than christianity) are also against homosexuality. And guess what? I have nothing to spare for either of them either.
But taken the world situation into account, they are not causing NEARLY as much trouble as islam and its followers are.

And of course, muslims are people just like you and me. Which is why I always treat muslims with the same respect as I treat everyone else. After all, humans have rights and are entitled to dignity and respect.
Ideals and ideologies on the other hand, do not share that privilege.