In a shootout where you and the badguy are both moving and trying to KILL each other, shot placement is the first thing that goes out the window.

In a combat situation, the ability to accurately "place" shots is very difficult to do. Sure...anyone can shoot the center out of a B29 silhouetter and think that they are good to go, but the reality of is that when someone is shooting at you "shot placement" is way down the list of things to do. :eek:

September 14th, 2005, 03:22 PM

Tangle

Quote:

Originally Posted by acparmed

...Shot placement is SO much more important than caliber...

Ahh shoot! I wanted to say that! :wink:

The more I train at schools, probably going to Blackwater next summer instead of Gunsite, the more I'm convinced that what will get me through the fight is what I've got in the gun. Oh yeah, I practice speed reloads, but from everything I can discover, it is highly unlikely that I'll need or have opportunity to reload in a gunfight.

I think there is however, a law comes into all this: "The fewer bullets in your gun the more likely you are to run out in a gunfight." That's perhaps trivial, but one of my laws of self-defense.

An unsubstantiated hypothesis: "If you run out of ammo before the gunfight is over, the caliber of the bullets you ran out of probably won't much matter."

BHP for me (yeah I know, surprise, surprise) with 15 Rd mags.(1 in weapon and one on belt). Second mag more as backup in case primary mag malfunctions than for the additional rounds.

For the fast throw something on low risk situtations when I just want a gun, my J-Frame with 2 reloads. 2 reloads as that's what fits comfortably in the pager belt pouch I use.

Main reason I don't carry it more is that I don't like shooting it as much as the BHP, therefore I'm not as good with it as the Browning, and I have yet to find a good CCW holster that works well for me. (Using a Fobus paddle for now, works OK, but I prefer IWB, which is a little harder for a wheelgun than an auto)

September 14th, 2005, 07:24 PM

P95Carry

ka0axs - for that J frame you want a rig like I have for SP-101 - made by Kevin of K&D Holsters. It's OWB hi-ride belt slide - keeps gun in real tight. If you need a pic holler and I'll post one later.

This one caught my eye and figure I answer it. For a good many years I carried a 1911A1(military) with a Smith & Wesson Model 10 snub in an ankle holster. The last year in the military the M9 was being issued and was told I would have to use it and turn in my 45,that was my first dealings with a 9mm. When I left the military and worked as a LEO I carried a Smith & Wesson Model 58 on duty & 57 (custom snub) off duty and a Smith & Wesson Model 60 as a back up. I was fine with that set up till the bosses told me I had to be certified with an auto. Glocks were just coming out and I hated some plastic thingy on my belt, so went out looking for a new 1911 and ended up with a Delta Elite 10mm. Thats is what I used when I was a LEO and as a CCW till 2000.After being injuried and medically retired I had a slow but steady problem shooting large bores to the point it was dang painful to shoot more than 200 rounds. As a result I started looking at something smaller and tried the 40 Smith & Wesson and 9 mms.2001 I finally went out and bought a Kahr MK40 and it was great to carry but still a pain to shoot for me then went to a K40 and it was better but still wasn't impressed with how I shot the 40. I ended up in 2001 also buying a Kahr E9 and I shoot that thing all day long with no problems and I very accurate with it. SHoorting the 9 helped me get better with the K40 but I always seem to put the E9 on the belt when I getting dressed. I always believed in shot placement and it has worked for me. I have used all the calibers except the 40 Smith & Wesson in actully shootings. Between doing alot of praticing and getting myself back in shape I have gotten to the point where I can shoot my 1911s or 41s again but with the work I do now and the requirments of being 100% concealled when working the Kahr works for me. I recently picked up a ParaCarry LDA and that is one hellva sweet gun but till I get some more range time with it I won't carry it.
In my opinion if you can't shoot it accurately everytime then it don't matter what you carry because a miss is still a miss. And as far as a reload I carry one extra on me be it a wheel gun(Model 60) or a spare mag. I usally use the Kahr E9 or the Smith & Wesson Model 60 as my main carry guns and feel fine with them. If I need more firepower than that then I will start carrying a shotgun or a rifle. Just my $.02

Although I carry a rather weighty 4" 1911 Commander that I've shot a lot, I was recently impressed by a Kimber Ultra CDP one of my students purchased from me and brought to an advanced class. It was cloverleafing the center of the target at 10 yds when we did our part. At 25 oz and small, firing 230 Hydra Shoks (7+1) I think this may be one of the best power to weight and size ratios going.

Remember the saw "Beware the man with one gun. He probably knows how to use it." I think we should beware the man with a single stack mag. He'll probably make the best use of it.

Trust your training, not your tools.

September 20th, 2005, 12:22 PM

RSSZ

gunthorp, Here comes the --- caliber vs. mag capacity vs. how many extra mags/rds do you carry, thing. I am in total agreement with your above statement ref. the man with the single stack mag. (So was the gunners guru(ya'll remember him) when he first said,"spray and pray".) That also,I believe, is one of the reasons that the Beretta took the place of the Colt. The Colt didn't seem to have enough firepower according to the untrained shooter(both military and politician). Cooper was very vocal about the type and amount of training that the servicemen were recieving prior to being issued a .45. There are alot of statements that Cooper has made that I don't agree with,but his feeling about the .45 always made alot of sense to me. The double stack 12-17 shot mags have never been desired by me. I have a friend that carries over 40 rds in mags and weapon. That is not for me. 7+1 and one more 7 is all that I can imagine that I'll ever need. If I find myself in a situation that I need more than that,I should have brought my carbine to this gunfight.---------

September 20th, 2005, 12:32 PM

Tangle

Winning relies both on training and tools; they are inseparable. Would one rappel without confidence in his tools? Sky dive? No amount of training will make up for tool failure. No amount of "tool" will make up for training failure.

I'd take 15 - 18 rounds of 9mm over 8 - 9 rounds of .45 any day of the week. If I had a task a 9mm wouldn't/couldn't solve, my next choice wouldn't be a .45 with fewer rounds because it likely woudn't solve the problem either.

I just read a report of a guy who has been in LE for something like 30 years and over those years he studied bullet performance in an attempt to see which bullets work the best. All he could conclude after years of study and research, was that everytime he found a bullet that performed really well, there would be a similar incident where the same bullet failed.

Ernst Langdon related another study to me that was yet another attempt to determine the best performing bullet and caliber. The result? Inconclusive. But the study did reveal something interesting. They discovered that LEOs that survied gunfights fired an average of six shots.

September 20th, 2005, 01:06 PM

gunthorp

Dont't start with me, you know how I get:)

Firepower / weight & size is one thing. Stopping power is quite another. It's shot placement and enough penetration. The 380 in Kel-Tec's P3-AT will do the job with one shot. A Barrett won't with a flesh wound. The 9 is more than enough, the 45 is better, but more fun time on the range. When we talk micro guns, we talk more training. Haven't heard much talk about Hi Points etc, so I know we're using the good tools. Reading the posts I get the feeling I'm in the company of the company I would want to be in when the situation goes south (no offense to Col Sanders.)

After 28 shots were fired, in the debriefing, asked why that many, they responded, "That's all we had."