Print Topic - Archive

I have been on the GTD for about 10 days (100% compliant) and I found that my backpain has steadily got worse since then. I have not changed anything else, apart from switching from the 0-Nonsecretor diet to the Gatherer diet. I am very sure that I am a gatherer, had someone else to measure me with the same results.Has anyone got any suggestions? ??)

Posted by: kate4975, Saturday, January 19, 2008, 2:01am; Reply: 1

Jump over to the "Are we to expect detox reactions?" thread. Someone may have already addressed your question or may be able to.

I've heard that sometimes when one's body is getting rid of excess water and fluids that the joints begin to ache because they are not floating in excess fluids anymore...

not sure if this is true or where i heard it but everytime I've gotten clean eating going, my pain increases.

I've never been clean (without binging) very long... so I'm hoping that after a period of time, the pain goes away. This is the big experiment here... staying on the GTD long term.

Posted by: Curious, Saturday, January 19, 2008, 2:07am; Reply: 3

Kate, I don't think that my increased backpain is a detox-reaction, but I posted a question on the link you suggested yesterday.Funky, I thought that I was quite 'clean', I have been on the BTD diet since August 07 (99% compliance).It also seems to me that a 10 day detox reaction is very long, in particular since my pain has been getting progressively worse.

Kate, I don't think that my increased backpain is a detox-reaction, but I posted a question on the link you suggested yesterday.Funky, I thought that I was quite 'clean', I have been on the BTD diet since August 07 (99% compliance).It also seems to me that a 10 day detox reaction is very long, in particular since my pain has been getting progressively worse.

ouuu.. then I would be looking at the newer foods you have introduced... ??)

I'm kind of afraid of cheese because of inflammaton even though I've been dipping my toe into Machego and Percornio.

So I'm keeping a feel on those for the moment and I'll throw a fit by gosh if I have to give them up!!! But I will if they are causing me pain...

Posted by: Curious, Saturday, January 19, 2008, 2:22am; Reply: 5

I have just ordered a book called "Foods that fight pain" by Neal Barnard. Maybe he has some good ideas.I have also done a bit of research on the net and one site listed the following foods as triggering pain: Dairy (number 1), corn, bell pappers, wheat, oats and rye, eggs, oranges, grapefuit, potatoes, tomatoes, meats, nuts, coffee, shellfish and alcohol. I have been eating some dairy, more eggs than usual, grapefruit and more lamb than usual since being on the gatherer diet (since they are said to be beneficials). I have given up on blueberries and cherries (which the net-site lists as fighting pain). Maybe the GTD only works if you want to loose weight and not if you want to get rid of pain? ??)

I have been on the GTD for about 10 days (100% compliant) and I found that my backpain has steadily got worse since then. I have not changed anything else, apart from switching from the 0-Nonsecretor diet to the Gatherer diet. I am very sure that I am a gatherer, had someone else to measure me with the same results.Has anyone got any suggestions? ??)

Maybe try drinking a lot of water to dilute toxins. And maybe eat less of the newer foods until you feel better. (which is what I did). I went back to a core diet for my blood type and felt better quickly and just started the GTD all over again in slow motion. We're all new at this andeach person is different. I don't think there is a right way to do this but logic tells me that ifyou feel worse when eating too many new foods at once, then it's too much for you. I'm only adding one new food at a time and only trying one new food every few days.

Posted by: drgnwng1, Saturday, January 19, 2008, 2:52am; Reply: 7

I noticed that we got a lot of the Nighshades back into our diets when we went GTD. Many people swear that these increase joint pains. Also dairy and some citrus but not grapefruit fall into the pain category. And we all know about WHEAT!So I agree with the last post. I would back up and slowly introduce 1 new food at a time after I was pain free.

Posted by: OSuzanna, Saturday, January 19, 2008, 5:32am; Reply: 8

I agree w/drgnwng1. The nightshades - tomatoes, peppers, potatoes, eggplant, etc. can definitely contribute to or reawaken joint pains. Personal experience, besides book-learning. Go back to your btd and start over, adding new stuff slowly so you can tell which ones are bothering you. :)

Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Saturday, January 19, 2008, 6:04am; Reply: 9

Curious, I will put my two cents into the discussion. :) Pain caused from eating certain foods is one of my worst problems. On the BTD grapefruit, for instance, was allowed for A-types and it is a super food for Warriors, but the pain it causes me is unreal. I can eat a little of it but no more than a little. If I eat it three days in a row, the pain is almost immobilizing. I don't have trouble with any other allowed fruits, only grapefruit. If you are eating something, or some things, every day, I would start eliminating one at a time. It seems sometimes as if the very thing we want the most is the one causing problems! I LOVE grapefruit -- as long as I don't have to eat it now that I know what it does to me! Who knows, down the road I might be able to enjoy it again. Good luck on your search for the truth about your back pain. One other thing, on the BTD sometimes if I got a really bad back pain it was caused from needing more lysine. I would take two or three 500 mg. caps and it would go away. I have not noticed that problem since I have been on the GTD - knock on wood!

I have just ordered a book called "Foods that fight pain" by Neal Barnard. Maybe he has some good ideas.I have also done a bit of research on the net and one site listed the following foods as triggering pain: Dairy (number 1), corn, bell pappers, wheat, oats and rye, eggs, oranges, grapefuit, potatoes, tomatoes, meats, nuts, coffee, shellfish and alcohol. I have been eating some dairy, more eggs than usual, grapefruit and more lamb than usual since being on the gatherer diet (since they are said to be beneficials). I have given up on blueberries and cherries (which the net-site lists as fighting pain). Maybe the GTD only works if you want to loose weight and not if you want to get rid of pain? ??)

Many of these same foods trigger pain issues for me. I gave up the cherries on the Warriordiet for 5 days and decided that I always did fine on cherries and they weren't "pain" foodsfor me so they're back as part of my type A diet. This is what I meant about keeping a foodjournal. I find it necessary to test out each new food I'm eating to see if I feel good or worse.My criteria would be: "does it make me retain fluid?" "Does it give me a good night's sleep?""does it cause pain or stiffness?" "does it seem to be digesting well?" "does it make mefeel tired or am I suddenly yawning?""does it give me a headache or a stuffy nose?"

I agree, the GTD might have more to do with weight loss yet, if you look ateach genotype's weakness and notice the diseases related to each group, there is an inflammatory component that relates to them all. Heart disease, cancer and arthritis are all issues of gross inflammation. I see no point in forcing oneself to eat known reactive foodsonce they are identified to cause inflammatory reactions.

So far, on the Warrior diet, the only new food that is working for me is pine nuts. Applesgave me gas and bloat. Chocolate was a problem with the caffeine.

I've read that 70% of the world's population doesn't have the ability to digest dairy. I'mclearly in that group.

There are also foods that are avoids for a type A and avoids for a Warrior that I have always done well on. Lobster, shrimp, crab meat and all shellfish. I don't react negatively and these proteins digest very well in my gut. I have to rely on my own common sense regarding many foods.

Posted by: meribelle, Saturday, January 19, 2008, 7:35pm; Reply: 11

I feel like I am gaining weight on the gatherer diet. I have a nagging headache today which I guess is related to too many almonds. Anyway, I never minded the O nonnie diet, except I do have less 'fire' in my stomach these days. I will keep trying the gatherer diet. Sorry you have pain in your joints. I could not do the dairy either.

Posted by: RedLilac, Saturday, January 19, 2008, 9:09pm; Reply: 12

In addition to your dietary changes, have there been changes in the weather where you are. (think) Weather affects me worse than food. Weather triggers it, and then food aggravates it.

I agree with the conscientious to go back to the BTD, then slowly add or subtract food.

Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 19, 2008, 9:11pm; Reply: 13

I second that, with one addendum: go back to the BTD but still avoid the "toxins" from the GTD.

Posted by: Mrs T O+, Saturday, January 19, 2008, 10:57pm; Reply: 14

Remember that we have our own personal allergies/intolerances even if tbe list says its OK for your type. I am still skittish about dairy & will consider it an avoid.I feel more tired, but I also am affected by weather, especially cold or gloomy weather. Today it got around zero!Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!! I also am stressing about my aunt.Mrs "T" O+ [hopeful hunter]

Remember that we have our own personal allergies/intolerances even if tbe list says its OK for your type. I am still skittish about dairy & will consider it an avoid.I feel more tired, but I also am affected by weather, especially cold or gloomy weather. Today it got around zero!Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!! I also am stressing about my aunt.Mrs "T" O+ [hopeful hunter]

Mrs T – tomorrow morning we need good hot compliant breakfasts. That is if we even want to crawl out of bed.

I find it necessary to test out each new food I'm eating to see if I feel good or worse.My criteria would be: "does it make me retain fluid?" "Does it give me a good night's sleep?""does it cause pain or stiffness?" "does it seem to be digesting well?" "does it make mefeel tired or am I suddenly yawning?""does it give me a headache or a stuffy nose?"

Chloe, I really like your suggestion. I am going to do that!

RedLilac - your questions about the weather is interesting. We did have a lot of rain for a few days and some areas at the Gold Coast have been flooded (I was fine, because I live in a suburb which is not flood-prone and my house is elevated). But the weather has been 'normal' over the last few days. Normal means it has been 26-29 degrees Celsius, and sometimes sunny, sometimes cloudy with a bit of rain. So I don't think that the weather affected my pain.

I found an interesting book in the library yesterday by Kathryne Pirtle "Performance without Pain". Kathryne is a clarinetist of the Orion Ensemble and has been battling with pain for a long time. The book is her story about how she healed herself from it. She tells in the book that she followed the 0-Diet for a while. She says: "My new diet (the 0-Diet) gave me some relief, but it was no cure. By age 45, my right arm and shoulder were hurting all the time. No matter what I did - chiropractic, massage therapy, stretching - all of the things I knew - the discomfort was constant. During the next few months I developed an inflammation in my spine that made it very difficult and painful to use my hands and fingers" (p. 15). To heal herself she stopped eating the gluten-grains allowed on the 0-Diet and felt better. Also she decided not to eat 'normal' milk products anymore, but only raw milk products (those which are not pasteurised and homogenised). In addition she avoided fruit juices and high-sugar fruits (and of course sugar). There are a few more things she did, but the ones I mentioned were the most interesting ones for me.

I think the key for me in getting better will be not to solely rely on any diet, but to test individual foods (as Chloe has suggested) and see how they feel in my body (independent of what the BTD or GTD says). I am going to try that for the next few weeks and see how I feel. (sunny)

Posted by: jayneeo, Sunday, January 20, 2008, 6:42am; Reply: 17

I would suspect the dairy. Have you used it? I discovered problems with it right away, and won't be able to use the cow cheeses, sadly. I should not use any until I lose the weight but I may just use goat chevre which I love.on the other hand....my arthritis is hurting less (possibly due to my cutting way back on beef) and I keep the night shades to infrequent.

Posted by: 119 (Guest), Sunday, January 20, 2008, 7:44am; Reply: 18

Last summer when I stopped taking excedrin type pain reliever, ( I was addicted; was taking up to 9 tablets a day 3 at a time for years), I got severe back and joint pain that lasted about a month. My friend at the HFS told me about Phenocain, a natural pain reliver that comes from tumeric. It enhances your body's natural defence mechanisms against inflamation and pain. It really works! (woot). When ever your body is healing its self there will be aches and pains, because it is detoxing, so I wouldn't give up too quickly. Hang in there.(clap)

Posted by: 521 (Guest), Sunday, January 20, 2008, 8:51am; Reply: 19

Curious,

Are you taking any of the suggested supplements from the book? If so, are you taking within the dosage recommendations that he has listed? If not, you should. If yes, you might want to abstain from them for awhile, or even lower your dosage to the low end of the range.

I say this because I started taking the holy basil he suggests, but above the suggested range, which is 200-400 mg. I was taking 450 mg, which is what the pills I purchased came in.

In the very near future, I'll start purchasing his Hunter's formula package, which, I'm told, includes lower levels of the holy basil.

Posted by: 1323 (Guest), Sunday, January 20, 2008, 1:43pm; Reply: 20

Curious what exactly are your issues? If they are arthritis related possibly you should follow the food and supp protocols recommended in Dr. D's Arthritis book...

Also I had ask about chiro on a thread awhile back and received a good reference for a tool to use for pain... I'm going to check it further and this may help you as well:

4. With respect to the stretching, there are 2 items I recommend: One is something called "the Stick" http://www.thestick.com/ used to mobilize fascia between the muscles. The other is a strap assisted stretch that allows you to push against something while you are stretching. There are a few available, but the one I use in my practice is called a StretchRite found at the following link http://www.scrip-inc.com/itemdetail.asp?cat=&MENU=&item=849+0030

Posted by: 1323 (Guest), Sunday, January 20, 2008, 2:44pm; Reply: 21

Quoted from 119

Last summer when I stopped taking excedrin type pain reliever, ( I was addicted; was taking up to 9 tablets a day 3 at a time for years), I got severe back and joint pain that lasted about a month. My friend at the HFS told me about Phenocain, a natural pain reliver that comes from tumeric. It enhances your body's natural defence mechanisms against inflamation and pain. It really works! (woot). When ever your body is healing its self there will be aches and pains, because it is detoxing, so I wouldn't give up too quickly. Hang in there.(clap)

Hi.. I just tried to Google this Phenocain and cannot find it online... where can I research this...? It sounds great!

Kate, I don't think that my increased backpain is a detox-reaction, but I posted a question on the link you suggested yesterday.Funky, I thought that I was quite 'clean', I have been on the BTD diet since August 07 (99% compliance).It also seems to me that a 10 day detox reaction is very long, in particular since my pain has been getting progressively worse.

Check the foods you've added one by one. You could have a personal allergy to one or more of them.. I have an intolerance to soy.

Posted by: Chloe, Sunday, January 20, 2008, 5:29pm; Reply: 25

There are other things to consider. How "clean" are the foods you're eating? Grass fed beef/dairy products? I did eat dairy from grass fed cows to test out my quark so Iknow I did find the best choice possible and it's still an allergic food for me. I thinkorganic produce and pure water might not have been emphasized adequately in the GTDbook. i find both to be important for my overall health..

Regarding aches and pains...Does anyone have Dr. Theodore Barody's book, Alkaliize or Die? Arthritis, he says is a condition of acidity. I went through the food lists he presents and chose the foods that were most alkaline (foods also okay for type A and not bad for a Warrior). I focused on staying alkalized since Friday. I'm feeling more balanced today. So, the adjustments we make have to come from many schools of thought. I'm not saying that the GTD is not going to work for me long term, but I'm now thinking about the properties of the food itself and how my body is reacting. I certainly wouldn't want to walk around in painand choking on the excessive mucous that dairy products give me... AND, curiously, do we even know or understand why any specific food on the "diamond" starred column was chosen for our genotype in the first place? That would be an interesting bit of information to understand.

I keep having to remind myself that the purpose of the GTD is to be manipulating our genesso they won't turn on a disease process. And if the foods with diamonds are the ones toconcentrate on specifically, it might be easier to just test those foods out first.

Posted by: Curious, Monday, January 21, 2008, 12:15am; Reply: 26

Quoted from 1323

Curious what exactly are your issues? If they are arthritis related possibly you should follow the food and supp protocols recommended in Dr. D's Arthritis book...

Funky, I have a prolapsed disk between L4 and L5. The pain is in my right buttock and right leg. I don't have arthritis. The pain has been manageable while I was on BTD, but got really bad since I have been on GTD.I printed out the lower back techniques on "the stick" (thank you very much for the link!) and will give them a try. I do have a thing which enables me to do stretches.Jayneeo - you could be right with the dairy. I had quark (from grass-fed cows, organic) in small amounts. I am not eating it anymore.Cynthia, the phenocane sounds great. I'll see whether I can get it in my health-food store.Ron-O-Non, no, I am not taking the supplements suggested in the Genotype book. But I do take supplements which my doctor has given me: N Acetyl Carnitine, Magnesium Plus, AdrenoTone, Formula 33SE (a multivitamin) CoQ10 and EPA/DHA (fishoil).Chloe, the food I have been eating is either home-grown (in my own garden), organic (from the health-food store) or grass-fed and organic (from the butcher). The book by Thodore Barody sounds interesting, I'll see whether I can order it.

Posted by: Ribbit, Monday, January 21, 2008, 1:22am; Reply: 27

It could be that your body is so happy on the diet it's finally able to deal with some inflamation in your back.

When I first started changing my diet, strange things came back to haunt me. My ankles started aching, and one of them even swelled up. It's like it was trying to heal from all those past sprains when my body was so depleted of anything good it couldn't heal right. The most surprising thing, though, aside from my ankle swelling up, was a bee sting that started itching again. I'd had a real bad bee sting on my knuckle about a year before, and it started itching as bad as it did when I first got it. It didn't swell up, it just itched. It was the strangest thing I'd ever seen. I called the dr who put me on my diet and he said that was interesting and good, that my body could concentrate on getting out inflamation now, when before it could only concentrate on keeping me vertical.

Posted by: Curious, Monday, January 21, 2008, 8:25am; Reply: 28

That is very interesting Ribbit. If the worsening of my backpain was a healing crises, I would be very happy with it. I'll see my doctor on Thursday and ask him about it.How long did your aches and pains last before you got better? ??)

Posted by: Ribbit, Monday, January 21, 2008, 12:30pm; Reply: 29

A matter of days. Maybe a week.

Posted by: Curious, Saturday, January 26, 2008, 3:35am; Reply: 30

I saw my doctor (he is very familiar with nutrition) and asked him whether my increased backpain could the result of a detox reaction since I started the GTD. He said that this is very unlikely. He also said that I have been eating foods that cause inflammation and pain (dairy products, chocolate, eggs, grapefuit, meat) and suggested that I replace these foods with food that is 'pain-safe', eg.g brown rice, cherries, cranberries, pears, prunes, different vegetables. He also suggested that I stop drinking tea (green, black, white) because the caffeine in tea can be a pain trigger for some people.So I am doing exactly that for a few weeks and see how I feel.

Curious, it just occurs to me that the increased back pain you are having may be something new altogether that has come up. I wouldn't rule that out because it may be something you need to have checked more thoroughly. Do you exercise?

Sorry, Curious, I had not read all of your former posts when I posted about newer issues possibly causing your pain. One thing I would like to mention at this point, though, is this: I have a friend (O-Type) who absolutely COULD NOT eat grain-fed beef. I don't know whether grain and grass are the same thing -- in fact, I don't have a clue about WHAT they are feeding cattle these days because I haven't eaten it in over a decade and certainly have bought any because everyone in my family is A-Type! But, anyway, the last time she ate any grain-fed beef she had to crawl to get help because SHE COULD NOT WALK!! It was the grain that did it. If she doesn't eat grain-fed, she has no problem. I still can't help but wonder if this is a detox going on there because it would seem that some inflammation would still remain. I do wish I could get any of you with pain to try castor oil. ON THE SKIN -- RUBBED INTO THE PAINFUL PLACES!!! (smile) Dr. D. got into the discussion when I mentioned this before some time ago under a different screen name - and don't ask me what the screen name was because I can't for the life of me remember! Anyway he mentioned the Canadian clinic that has done a tremendous amount of work with castor oil in compresses, etc.. I bought a new computer since then and somehow lost the link but I'm pretty sure a search would find it. But getting back to the detox, the castor oil will put things into overdrive if there is inflammation. It doesn't help all types of pain but when it does, you will see results in as little as 20 minutes! All you do is massage it into the sore places. And a little heat helps, but it isn't absolutely necessary. You wouldn't be out more than a couple of bucks, at the most, for a small bottle. I use Swan's in the dark blue bottle and it has minimal odor. I have never ruined any clothes with it, either.

Posted by: Curious, Sunday, January 27, 2008, 1:46am; Reply: 33

Thanks Spring, the castor oil is a great suggestion. I'll see whether I can get it here.My back pain seems to be getting less since I stopped eating according to GTD and since I stopped eating meat. The meat I ususally ate was grassfed, but it could have been the meat itself because a few books and internet sites I read argue that meat tends to increase pain. I am going to try my new meatless diet for 3 weeks and see how I feel.