The ability of an adept to Target Effects.

It has been stated that Adepts do not always have the ability to specifically target their magical talents, and that they affect all possible creatures within range willy-nilly. I believe this to be incorrect.

First lets define some terms.There is not section on Talent Targeting in the players guide of this edition. The section on Talent Range is only marginally useful. : Talent Range Many talents have a variable range based on the talent rank, or a test result to determine a viable target, measure their effects, or determine the area affected

Talents are not spells, but the text on AoE from the spells section is useful. Area of Effect Some spells affect multiple targets in a given area, or affect a space rather than an individual. These spells will have an area of effect, usually measured as a radius in yards ...A spell affects all targets within its area of effect, regardless of whether they are friend or foe; it is possible for a careless magician to damage allies with an area effect damaging spell. Many spells with an area of effect allow a caster to weave additional threads to designate characters in the spell’s area of effect that will not be affected by the spell.

The assumption is being made by some, that a talent that has a listed Range, is a Area of Effect talent, and affects all creatures within that range. I believe this is not true. I believe that a talents range indicates the maximum range from which the Adept may pick his targets, but unless the talent gives some indication that the talent affects everything in the area (which I don't think any except for possibly etiquette do), then only those targets chosen by the Adept are targeted. The others are not considered Targets of the power and remain unaffected by the power.

In general, all of the talents that we are concerned with in this discussion fall into one of three categories: They target one person or object and require a test against PD, Md, or SD.. They target a specified number of targets and target the highest PD, MD, or SD in the group, or they target an unlimited number of targets, with a TN of the highest PD, MD, or SD in the group, plus one per every character past the first.

Examples of the first group would be Melee Weapons or Battle Shout. With a Melee swing or a Battle Shout, the Adept can choose which creature he will target with the effect. He can Battle Shout a creature, and the creature next to it will be totally unaffected.

An example of the 2nd group would be Fearsome Charge where the test is compared to the SD of the Adepts chosen targets (up to his rank in Fearsome Charge Targets may be chosen). My belief is that if he faces more potential targets than he has Ranks in the talent, he may freely choose which of his enemies (who can see his fearsome charge) will be affected. Note that this is more powerful than an effect that affects a single target, but there is a hard limit to how many targets it may affect - Talent Rank.

In the third group, there is not a hard limit on the number of creatures that can be affected by one test, but there is a soft limit, in that the target number is the highest defense in the group, plus one per additional character. An Adept could in theory attempt to affect a hundred or more creatures, but the target number would be higher than 100. However even if there happen to be 100 creatures present, I believe the Adept could simply use the talent upon whatever subset he thinks he can manage. The others are all unaffected. Examples of Talents in this group are Battle Bellow, Arcane Muttering. Note: Conversation seems to be a combination of groups 2 and 3. It is my strong conviction that just like you get to pick your target for the individually targeted talents, and you get to pick your targets for the talents that only target a set number of potential targets, You also get to pick whom is or is not targeted by a talent in the third group.

Arcane Muttering: "The adept confuses others by muttering dire, largely incomprehensible, warnings and making an Arcane Mutterings test against the highest Social Defense among the target group, +1 for each additional character. If successful, the target characters become confused". Note that this talent makes no mention of friends and enemies. Only of Target Groups and Target Characters, and "Others". I believe that the Adept gets to pick which characters that can hear him are the "Target Group". The Target group are not all characters who can hear him.

Specifically, I do not believe that if you use "Arcane Muttering", you are compelled to use it against everybody who can hear you, friend or foe. I do not believe that you have to use the highest SD among all those who can hear the muttering, friend and foe. I do not believe that you have to add +1 to the target number for each friend and foe that can hear you. And I do not believe that if you succeed that all friends and foes become harried. I do believe the Adept gets to pick his "Target Group" from among those who can hear him, and can and should choose only a number the thinks will give him a manageable TN.

I do believe that (for example) an Adept facing an officer, two sergeants and 20 troopers, could attempt to engage the officer and maybe (at his total discretion) the sergeants in Conversation. I do not believe he has to add +1 to his target number for any of the troopers present, he is shaping his magic to affect only the officer and the sergeants. The target number is the leaders SD plus 2. The leaders become friendly. The troopers remain unaffected. The were not a part of the Target group.

I also believe that an Adept could Battle Bellow such that only 2 friendly characters received a plus to their close combat attacks, and only one of the enemies present received a minus one to their actions. Only three characters being affected means that it is only +2 to the highest SD and everybody else is unaffected. This works pretty much by t he same magic system that has one creature battle shouted but the one next to him not.

In short and to sum up. Range is not Area of Effect. Unless there is an Area of Effect in which everything inside of it is affected, the Adept gets to pick his targets. Battle Bellow has a Range. there is no indication whatsoever that it has an AoE. If Battle Bellow does have an AoE, so does Arcane Muttering. If Battle Bellow and Arcane Muttering are AoE, then they are functionally almost useless as Target Numbers quickly become unmanageable Arcane Muttering, if you managed to get it off will debuff your allies, and Battle Bellow, is wasting TN buffing your spellcasters close combat attacks. Three is almost no circumstances under which one would attempt to use ether. . They only make sense if they, like every other spell, power, or Talent that does not specifically say it affects everything inside of an AoE, the Adept gets to pick the talents targets.

Posted this under the other topic in the rules section but will put this here to. I disagree with you 100%. Simple as that. This is how it gets called at my tables. I read all your arguments in the chat and still disagree with you. I disagree even knowing it makes my life as a player just slightly more difficult. If you have any questions about the other half of the talents I did not list that is fine. Ask away. I stand by the other two STs 100% on this.

Acrobatic Defense Step: Rank + DEX Action: Simple Strain: 1 Skill Use: Yes (Novice) The adept flips, spins, somersaults, or performs similar acrobatic maneuvers, making him harder to hit. He must be able to move and have sufficient space to ma­neuver in. The adept makes an Acrobatic Defense test against the highest Physical Defense of any opponents in close combat range (2 yards). The adept adds +2 to his Physical Defense for each success scored for the remainder of the round. If the adept is knocked down or otherwise finds his movement restricted, he loses this bonus. Acrobatic Defense cannot be used in the same round as Anticipate Blow.

Opinon: This is a AOE attack to every enemy within 2 yrds. You target the highest PD in the group around you. You do not get to pick or choose.

Air Speaking Step: Rank + PER Action: Simple Strain: 1 Skill Use: No The adept communicates without vocalizing, moving his lips and mouthing the words he wants to speak. He makes an Air Speaking test and compares it to the Mystic Defense of each target he wishes to speak with. If successful, the target hears the ad­ept speaking as if he were conversing normally, regardless of other noise in the area. If unsuccessful, the individual target does not hear the adept. There is no limit to the number of targets that can be affected at once, but all must be within Rank x10 yards, and all targets hear the same words. The adept must speak in a language he knows. If a target does not speak the language, they cannot understand what it being said.

Opinion: Targeted Talent with specifications on WHO can be targetted and how close they have to be. Descrition makes it pretty self explanatory.

Arcane Mutterings Step: Rank + CHA Action: Standard Strain: 0 Skill Use: Yes (Novice) The adept confuses others by muttering dire, largely incomprehensible, warn­ings and making an Arcane Mutterings test against the highest Social Defense among the target group, +1 for each additional character. If successful, the target characters become confused and are considered Harried for a number of rounds equal to the ad­ept’s Arcane Mutterings rank. Due to the disconcerting nature of the talent, this penal­ty also applies to the target’s Social Defense. During this time, the adept must contin­ually “mutter” or the effect ends; this requires his concentration. If the adept achieves extra successes, those affected by the talent will take no hostile actions against the adept or his obvious companions—so long as no one takes any hostile action against them. Arcane Mutterings is ineffective against targets already engaged in combat.

Opinion: Key phrase here is TARGET GROUP! If there are a group of 4 people over there and you want to affect them then it is that GROUP that you are targetting. You do not get to nit pick 3 of them and leave out 1. Difficulty is Highest SD and then +1 in the group you are targetting. They must be able to hear you for this power to work.

Battle Bellow Step: Rank + CHA Action: Simple Strain: 1 Skill Use: Yes (Journeyman) The adept issues a great bellow, inspiring his allies and intimidating his enemies. The targets must be within the adept’s Battle Bellow rank x10 yards. The adept makes a Battle Bellow test against the highest Social Defense among the target group, +1 for each additional target. If successful, enemies affected by the talent suffer a -1 penalty to their tests per success scored until the end of the following round. Friendly targets gain the number of successes as a bonus to their close-combat Attack tests. Targets which are immune to fear are immune to this talent’s effects.

Opinion: Key phrase again TARGET GROUP. This one is nice in a couple ways. Player targets group. Highest SD +1 per addition person in the group in the AOE. TARGET ENEMY GROUP or TARGET ALLIED GROUP. Target Allied group SHOULD work no matter what since it is similar to spell buff. So no success would equal 1 success.

Battle Shout Step: Rank + CHA Action: Simple Strain: 1 Skill Use: Yes (Novice) The adept issues a loud shout, intimidating a single foe. The target must be within the adept’s Battle Shout rank x5 yards. The adept makes a Bat­tle Shout test against his opponent’s Social Defense. If successful, the target incurs a -2 penalty for each success to his tests until the end of the following round. Each use against the same opponent in a giv­en encounter increases the Difficulty Number by 5. Targets which are immune to fear are immune to this talent’s effect.

Opinion: Pretty self explanatory. Says single foe and is a target one on one thing. Included because was mentioned in comparision.

Conversation Step: Rank+CHA Action: Sustained Strain: 0 Skill Use: Yes (Novice) The adept is able to make a favorable impression in social situations through tone and word choice appropriate to the situation. The adept makes a Conversation test against the highest Social Defense among the target group, +1 for each additional character. If successful, the Attitude of the target characters rises favorably toward the adept by one degree (for example, from Neutral to Friendly) for the duration of the conversation and for a number of days afterwards equal to the adept’s Conversation rank. The target’s Attitude cannot be improved further while the talent is in effect. The adept can use this talent on a maximum number of characters equal to his Con­versation rank at one time.

Opinion: Another TARGET GROUP talent. It is AOE and targets the group you are trying to impress in the social situation. If that is three nobles with their bodyguards they are ALL the target group.

EMOTION SONG

The adept sings songs that arouse an audience to a basic emotion, such as fear, love, hate, happiness, anger, or joy, directed at the subject of the song. For example, if the song is about love for a king, the audience feels the emotion expressed (love in this case) about the king named in the song. Each performance requires at least ten minutes to complete, after which the adept makes an Emotion Song test against the highest Social Defense among the audience.Each success scored affects 20 percent of the audience. The maximum number of people that can be affected by a performance is equal to the adept’s Emotion Song Rank x10; if the audience is too big to be affected completely, the adept targets a lo­calized part of it. Consecutive uses of this talent are cumulative. Once the adept has affected the current audience, he can continue his performance, engaging a bigger audience with his song. The adept can perform for no more than his Emotion Song rank in hours, after which he cannot use the talent again for one day. If the adept fails an Emotion Song test, the adept must stop performing—the crowd has grown weary of his performance, but the effects of his performance to that point, if any, are still felt by the audience. On a Rule of One for any Emotion Song test, the effect of the song changes, turning the emotion felt by affected members of the audience into the opposite emotion intended. The song’s effect lasts for a number of days equal to the adept’s Emotion Song rank, during which time those affected are more open to suggestions related to the subject and emotion expressed by the song. Those making such suggestions gain a +2 Interaction test bonus; those making suggestions counter to the emotion suffer a –2 Interaction test penalty.

Opinion: This is not a pick and choose talent either. It is an entire group of people and you roll agianst highest SD.

146 Fearsome Charge Step: Rank + CHA Action: Simple Strain: 2 Skill Use: No Illusion. The mounted adept frightens opponents when making a Charging Attack (p. 396), undergoing a radical transformation as he charges— his eyes grow larger or glow, his teeth become pointed or the canines more elongated, and his hair stands away from his head in a wild tangle. The adept makes a Fearsome Charge test and compares it to the Social De­fense of his desired targets, up to a maximum equal to his rank in Fearsome Charge. For each success, affected targets suffer a −1 penalty to all tests made against the adept for a number of rounds equal to the adept’s Fearsome Charge rank. Each round, those affected by this talent can end the effect by making a successful Willpower test against the adept’s Fearsome Charge Step. Targets which are immune to fear cannot be affected by this talent.

Opinion: Targetted with specific number of targets choosen by the rider. Pretty self explanatory.

Graceful Exit Step: Rank + CHA Action: Standard Strain: 0 Skill Use: Yes (Novice) The adept escapes from combat by distracting his opponents and making a Grace­ful Exit test against the highest Social Defense among the target group. If successful, he makes good his escape, immediately moving as far away from the combat as pos­sible. He may not take any actions other than movement or the talent’s effect ends. The adept can extend the effect to cover additional characters, up to a maximum of his Graceful Exit rank. For each character he is attempting to affect, the Difficulty Number is increased by +1. The same restrictions apply—if any character takes an action that breaks the talent’s effect, it is ended for everyone. Those characters bedazzled by the adept’s sudden departure may take no direct action against him or his affected companions for a number of rounds equal to the successes scored on the Graceful Exit test. If anyone affected by this talent returns to the combat after having made a Graceful Exit, the opponents become enraged. If pos­sible, they will try to attack the offender in preference to others, and are immune to all Interaction tests made against their Social Defense to influence them otherwise. Their anger and outrage gives them a +2 bonus to any tests they make against the offender.

Opinion: Another TARGET GROUP. Seems to work like the other ones. If the group is enemies in this room then it is against all them.

Heartening Laugh Step: Rank + CHA Action: Simple Strain: 1 Skill Use: Yes (Novice) The adept bolsters morale by directing a booming, mocking laugh at his oppo­nents and making a Heartening Laugh test against the highest Social Defense among all opponents within earshot. If successful, any characters Friendly to the adept and who hear the laugh add a +2 bonus per success to their Social Defense against effects based on fear or intimidation, as well as to any Willpower tests made to shake off those effects for a number of rounds equal to his Heartening Laugh rank.

Opinion: Does not specify range other than earshot so GM call at the time and scene but is against the highest DC among them. Does not add the +1 per each person which makes this nice buff.

Inspire Others Step: Rank + CHA Action: Standard Strain: 0 Skill Use: No The adept inspires his companions, raising spirits and boosting morale. He speaks inspirational words, then makes an Inspire Others test against the highest Social Defense among the target group, +1 for each additional character, targeting friendly characters only. If successful, all affected characters add +1 to Social Defense and gain a +2 bonus to their tests for each success. The talent effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the adept’s Inspire Others rank.

Opinon: Targets GROUP! Treat the same but as a buff I would say this goes into no success = 1 success pile.

Lasting Impression Step: Rank + CHA Action: Standard Strain: 0 Skill Use: No The adept impresses a group of characters when leaving the group. He strikes a dramatic pose or makes a short soliloquy, then makes a Lasting Impression test against the highest Social Defense among the target group, +1 for each additional character. If successful, a powerful image of the adept is imprinted in the targets’ minds. The adept adds +2 per success to Interaction tests he makes against the affected characters for a number of weeks equal to his Lasting Impression rank. If, after using this talent when leaving the group, the adept is seen by any of the target characters within one day of his departure, the effect ends for that character.

was my post deleted? iit appeared like 2-3 of us were writing at the same time. I do hope it was not being summarily dismissed.

truthfully I see both sides and I am not personally invested in the talents or skills that are used as I don't have many of them in use currently or maybe ever.

the problem I have was all talents that can affect multiple targets forced to is there is no defined area of effect. The definition of "targeted group" can be interpreted several ways. As does the +1 per additional target. There are no spells that aoe everything within range. The Closest example would be Thunderclap where the range is self and AOE is 6. But its clearly defined as AOE.

the fact that the talents have +1 for each additional target does give the perception of some control. Saying there is no control is a significant nerf on many abilities. It would be much clearer if talents were listed as spell-like. saying this is aoe with this radius or "arc" this is a single target but can add additional targets by +1 per target for the target group. The questions would be simple and I am not sure why they didn't write them with the same limitations.

talents that can affect multiple targets have always been on my mind similar to spells that can add targets by adding additional threads or successes in case of lightning bolt.

Such as treating them first as a single target then adding additional targets with the additional penalty of +1 per additional target to the target group (and dealing with the new highest XD) Nowhere do they say these abilities are AOE just that they can target a group withough defigning what that group is.

Last edited by emeketos on Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total

The +1 for additional target is only there to determine the value to roll against. It is NOT describing the fact that it is targeting single people in a group.

These simply ARE NOT spells. Stop trying to compare them to spells. They work differently. The range is what makes sense. A Bellow is a large shout at a group of people within x range. Taunt has single target but they must be able to understand you. Arcane mutterings range is within hearing distance as is Heartening laugh.

Target group in range is the target. It seems simple and cut and dry. Do not really even see the argument the other way at this point.

I was in the process my self of doing the same thing I think I may have deleted my own post by accident. Apparently, if you hit send to reply and someone replied while you were typing it requires 2 send commands. Thus I only did 1 and lost the post.

Did not take it that way at all man. I actually do not mind this conversation other than the fact that I am at work and was unable to really post anything. Only times rules things irritate me is when both sides give their opinion and obviously are not going to CHANGE their opinion but the other side wants to keep arguing. I do not like repeating myself or feeling badgered. Simple as that.

Example: Battle Bellow vs That Group (Target Group) I got to that group of we will say, 4 people. I find the highest SD and the add +1 to that for each additional member of that group. Easy Peasy.

I 100% agree with this but what if your facing 10 enemies in clumps of 4, 1 & 5 all are within range of the talent. can you target the group of 4 and ignore the solo and group of 5? or do they all have to be targeted even if one is in front of you and another is behind you. If this was an AOE ability you could easily say well the group of 4 is in front of me and in my AOE of 4 yards, in my range of my talent of x range.

I would except an answer well that group of 4 or 5 are clearly together so you can turn around and shout at them. But it gets a lot murkier as the situation gets messy.

Last edited by emeketos on Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:25 am; edited 1 time in total

When I read group I am thinking group. If there are two groups 1 & 5 you target a GROUP of them.

Other STs may think differently and I could see the call that if you started the fight against 8 people even if they split up they are still the same group. I would call it a case by case situation sometimes as well. Earthdawn rules are generally fluid for these kind of what if situations.

At least on my part, I think we are getting closer to an answer. I can accept you might not be able to pick A & C out of a group of A through E. I can except being able to target A group of enemies when there are many groups present within range.

I do not like the implications if there are 20 peon's around me and I am forced to target all of them if they are scattered all over the field randomly places around me. Which generally is what fights turn out to being when they get messy.

Well with some things like Emotion song that is EXACTLY how it works though. Also, conversation if I recall.

I would be less inclined to make it happen with Conversation since I am sure if you were at a dinner and using the skill you would probably trying to impress the hosts and not every person sitting around you. Like I said a lot of grey area and setting things that can change how it works.

Well with some things like Emotion song that is EXACTLY how it works though. Also, conversation if I recall.

you can add leadership to others to that but those abilities tend to affect hundreds of targets all at once. They also are very clear they are an AOE like ability several magnitudes above battle talents. Most of those abilities are like I effect x% of the audience per success where x% could be 2-300 people. I am not sure you should consider battle bellow in the same league. Also, their difficulty doesn't change depending on audience size which in my mind is the clearest indication of an AOE ability, they just care about the most stubborn member of that group.

I take the difficulty change as more of a mechanical balancing measure than a gauge on weather it is AOE or not. Those would be the most broken abilities in the game if that balance wasn't there. As is it is balanced well and good.

I agree there needs to be a limitation the +1 per target is a good one otherwise combat would be crazy simple. All I care about is how the group of targets can be increased or decreased with some semblance of control. Sometimes this is easy other times is going to be unclear where a group starts or ends.

I think players need to understand and trust their GMs while wanting to make things challenging in those situations are actually rooting for the players and trust that they are making a logical and informed call for the game and the situation. Almost every ruling in this org has been in the players direction and while this one may not seem that way it makes logistic and perfect sense. Bad guys have the same restrictions.

I totally and completely agree that the key phrase in all of the Talents quoted is "Target Group". The problem, as I see it, is that we don't agree upon what the term "Target Group" means.

Some people seem to assume it means that all potential targets are the Target Group. Others seem to believe that a Target Group is chosen from among groups that might be scattered about a battlefield, and all members of the chosen group are the Target Group. I believe that the Target Group are the Targets that an Adept chooses from among all the Potential Targets. Range simply gives limit to whom can or can not be Potential Targets. But the Adept picks the Targets from among the Potential Targets and the chosen Targets are the Target Group for that effect. All Potential Targets that are not chosen to be a part of the Target Group are unaffected.

So the big question is, What is the "Target Group" for talents that affect such a thing.

This question has been asked and answered previously. Here are the results from searching for "Battle Bellow" on the FASA forums (old and new) that mention this issue.

So just to let you understand that if it is not put in as an official errata to the RAW I will run it at my tables by my interpretation. This is not me trying to be a jerk it is me worrying about game balance and things making sense cinematically. You are entitled to your opinion, mine is just different. Your opinion allows you to run the situation as you see fit when players are sitting at your table and mine allows me to do the same at mine.

Chris, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that the disagreement here stems from the definition of "Target Group". Unfortunately, both threads you link to on the FASA forums have opinions only from other players, which are useful to inform the discussion but not definitive in the way that a developer comment would be. I thought Shawn's breakdown was very useful, so I took it one step further and did my own, this time focusing on the way target groups and rolls interact. There are, in effect, four different types of Talent.

Singular target. The Talent affects one target, which usually must be within a specified range. No controversy here.

Fearsome Charge is further limited to a maximum number of targets equal to rank; this limit requires it to allow the adept to specify which targets those are, which it does. Wheeling Defense does not have such a limit, and thus does not require specification; all opponents within range of the mount's Movement Rate are targets.

Group target, use the highest Defense in the group for everyone. Acrobatic Defense, Emotion Song, Graceful Exit, Heartening Laugh.

In some instances there is a range limit - Acrobatic Defense specifies that the target group is 'everyone within 2 yards', Heartening Laugh specifies that the target group is 'everyone within earshot'. Emotion Song and Leadership are designed to affect large groups - larger than would comprise a combat encounter - and put limits on the total number of targets that may be affected. Graceful Exit adds no limitations.

Heartening Laugh affects your allies, but is rolled against your opponents. It is not possible to select either specific allies or specific opponents: it affects all allies, and uses the highest Social Defense of all opponents.

Graceful Exit also affects your allies and is rolled against your opponents. In this case, you may select specific allies (raising the DN by +1 for each additional ally). You may not select specific opponents. You gracefully escape from combat, not from a combatant, and use the highest Social Defense of all opponents to determine whether or not you are successful.

Arcane Mutterings does not directly say that the target group are "the opponents", but the intention seems pretty clear from the wording. You may not direct your muttering toward some of your opponents and not others, which makes it harder to affect a given group the larger it is - something that follows logically from a cinematic/storytelling point of view. No range is specified, but the mutterings are under your breath, which implies quite a close range.

Inspire Others directly states that the target group are your allies. Cinematically, I can see how you ought to be able to inspire a single target ("[Name], you've got this!") or a group united by a single goal ("Hold the line!" refers to the characters in the line, and is not inspirational to the character at the back of the room, frantically disassembling the doomsday device), or a group united by a single characteristic ("Trolls rule! Go trolls!"), or the whole group.

Lasting Impression and Conversation both work against the whole group. You either leave a lasting impression or you don't; you either shine in the conversation or you don't. The group in this case is the social group with which you are interacting. Conversation has the additional restriction of how many people that group may contain: you cannot shine in a conversation consisting of six people if you have only two ranks of Conversation. You're simply overshadowed. What you want is to get two of those people to break off into a smaller group with you, and then shine. No, you may not talk in your group of six, but only roll Conversation against two of the participants. (Conversation has the strictest limitations of any Talent.)

Battle Bellow limits the number of targets by a specified distance, rather than leaving it to the GM to determine who is 'in earshot'. It is unique among combat-oriented Talents in that it is both a buff to your allies and a debuff to your enemies, which means both that the payoff is greater if it succeeds and that the number of targets is automatically greater.

This could have been done as a "Compare result to each" Talent, which would greatly lessen the difficulty. But Battle Bellow is way more awesome than Air Speaking or Lifesight, and making it that easy would be unbalanced. It could have had the same restriction as Fearsome Charge - choose a number of targets up to your Rank in the Talent, and compare your result to each of those. It wasn't. It is, instead a "highest Defense + 1 per additional" talent. Of that category, I think it is most comparable to Inspire Others, which is the only other of that category which can be used in combat. Inspire Others is a Standard Action, lasts for multiple rounds, and gives fairly potent bonuses; Battle Bellow is a Simple Action, but lasts only a single round and gives minor bonuses/penalties. We're comparing apples and oranges, but we're not comparing apples and suspension bridges.

I agree with Shawn that, by default, a group could be "everyone", "all allies" or "all enemies". Depending on cinematic circumstances, some refinement of this seems both logical and appropriate. If your enemies consist of some Creature As and some Creature Bs, I can see the argument that Creature A are all one group and Creature B are all another group. Based on battlefield positioning, there might be one group of enemies in one direction, and another group of enemies in another. Those seem like fair and reasonable ways to limit Battle Bellow from the very daunting "everyone on the battlefield" to something more likely to succeed.

As I suggested with Inspire Others, a unifying activity or characteristic could reasonably determine a group. "Everyone in close combat," or even "my allies in close combat" (though we're now getting into two descriptors!) could work. "Only my allies who are melee combatants," regardless of their positioning or the positioning of ranged and spellcasting characters doesn't work for me. The difference there is that it is something which is evident to an outsider: it does not require privileged knowledge of individuals.

It definitely does not seem reasonable to define a group as "these three random targets I choose, which are a group because I define them as a group." That's circular logic.

Smyandi wrote:

Target Allies group SHOULD work no matter what since it is similar to spell buff. So no success would equal 1 success.

I was thinking the same, but then I realised that the rule exists for buff spells because they are a Standard Action to cast - sometimes more than one, if you're Threadweaving. It is the primary thing you're doing that round, rather than an additional thing.

Consequently, I think the rule should apply to non-spell buffs that use a Standard Action, but not those that use only a Simple Action. Always succeeding on something you can spam every round for 1 strain means there's never any reason not to do it, rather than having to make strategic decisions of what to do with your action economy.

I would be fine with someone saying, "I want to use my Standard Action to Battle Bellow this round," thereby trading their action economy for a minimum of one success for allies, but I'm not willing to allow it for a Simple Action.

Smyandl: You should of course run the game according to your understanding. I do hope however that you are open to having your understanding informed by facts, opinions, or authority you might possibly have not fully considered before.

Shaalwyd: It is true that both links have the "You choose who you target" answer provided very quickly by a person who is not known to be a game developer, however in the case of the first answer, Mataxes about 4 days later commented upon the thread, and while he corrected a point in an answer to the 2nd question, he did not feel a need to correct the answer to the first question. In fact the "You choose who you target" answer was always provided very quickly and accepted as unneeding of further comment by everybody who posted later to ether thread. Hopefully Mataxes will comment upon yesterdays thread soon, but the last time he commented upon one he mentioned how busy he is lately.

Shaalwyd wrote:

It definitely does not seem reasonable to define a group as "these three random targets I choose, which are a group because I define them as a group." That's circular logic.

Could you please explain to me why you think that is circular logic? My understanding of the term does not fit this usage.

If I go into a store and pick three items to buy, those items are "my purchases" because those are the items I chose to buy. I would call that more a "selection" or a "consequence", or "labeling" than a "circular logic" fallacy.. By the same token, assuming you do not reject out of hand the argument that an Adept gets to pick his Talents Targets from among Potential Targets, then there is nothing wrong with saying that the Potential Targets of his Talent the Adept selects to Target are the Target Group.

This issue does require actually answering the questions "What is a Target Group?", "Who/what determines the contents of the Target Group?".

Several of us have already gone through long lists of Talents, giving examples of who can and can't be targeted, and I am sorry to say that I am about to do it again. I will do you the courtesy of addressing your points one by one and highlighting how and why I might disagree with some of the aspects. But this time my goal is also to demonstrate that with almost EVERY Talent listed, in the absence of an explicit Area of Effect listing, the Adept always gets to relatively freely choose his Targets from among the Potential Targets. (I think there is only one exception (the sleep spell) to general rule that everybody in an Area of Effect is automatically Targeted unless there is a mechanic (such as an extra thread tied to a spell) that allows the caster to remove individual targets). So what I am talking about are Talents, some of which have Range, but most of which do not have Area of Effects, but some of which specify who is affected.

I will also attempt to demonstrate that the developers cleverly use Target Group and Target Number to limit and balance the effectiveness of Talents. Allowing Adepts to choose who is and is not a member of the Target Group is an important aspect of that balancing. My goal here is to point out that targeting a single target (of the adepts choosing) defense, targeting a group of targets (of the adepts choosing) and adding +1 for each additional target, targeting a small group of adepts (of the adepts choosing) highest defense, are all part of a spectrum of increasingly powerful effects. Being able to target one creature is nice. Being able to target more than one creature, but with the target number increasing in difficulty with each additional target chosen is even nicer. Being able to target a small number of creatures with the target number not increasing with each additional target is nicest yet.

In short, having the ability to target more than one creature is supposed to be a good thing. It in no way shape or form obligates you to attempt to target all possible creatures every time you attempt to use the power. It is meant to make you choose your own target number. Do I want to try to affect one target, with a good chance of success? Affect 3 with a slightly lessor chance of success? Or a whole lot with a poor chance of success? Any of these are possible, and it is your option to make your choice and roll the dice. It is flexibility and your choice, not something imposed upon you by the rules.

1 - Singular Target. There is no controversy here, but I do want to emphasize how it works. Lets use Battle Shout as an example. Everybody within Rank x 5 Yards is a Potential Target. The Adept picks one Target and shouts in his general direction. All other Potential Targets, even those who can hear the shout, are unaffected. There is no controversy here, but there are some very important concepts at work, and this basic model will be repeating itself with more complex Targeting.

I do want to be clear here. The range is Rank x 5 yards. Not only can't the Adept target everybody within 5 yards, He has to choose one Target withing Rank x 5 yards. Everybody except the target that hears the shout is unaffected. My position on Battle Bellow is that everybody within Rank x 10 yards is a Potential Target. The Adept may choose any number of Potential Targets within Rank x 10 yards. He may choose one, He may choose all. He may choose anything in between in whatever combination he chooses. Other people within Rank x 10 yards hear the bellow, but they are unaffected.

These two powers are balanced. Battle Shout always targets only one Target, but imposes a -2 per success. Battle Bellow is more flexible. It targets as few or as many targets are the Adept chooses, but only imposes a -1 per success. The Adept needs to choose his targets careful in order to gain the maximum effect.

Note that if Battle Bellow automatically affected everybody on the battlefield, it would be unbalancenly weak. The TN would usually be to high to get a usable number of successes.

2 - Roll Once, Compare vs Each: My understanding is that while the rules do say this, effectively it is practically the same as the next category, in that to speed gameplay the number of successes is always counted from the highest defense present. I suppose there might be a tiny difference in that GMs might allow it to succeed against some of the targets even if it failed against the creature(s) with the highest defense.Fearsome Charge: Once again, the Adept chooses his Targets, with the limitation that he can choose no more than Talent Rank Targets. Everybody who can see his Charge is a Potential Target. He is free to include or exclude Potential Targets from his Target Group as he see's fit. If there are more opponents than he has Talent Ranks, he is required to exclude some. He is not required to include any Potential Target he does not want to. Since the number of successes is counted from the highest SD among his chosen Target Group, he might choose to exclude Potential Targets he suspects of having a high SD, even when dong so means he does not pick all the actual Targets that he is allowed to. He chooses whom his Target Group is, and only those are affected by the magic of the Talent. Wheeling Defense: This is one of the exceptions to my main thesis. This does not use a Target Group. Instead it seems to have something similar to an AoE. "The adept makes a Wheeling Defense test against the Physical Defense of any opponents within the range of the mount’s Movement Rate". Note that once again, since the target number does not go up depending upon the number of opponents, the only reason anybody would ever want to exclude targets if if you suspected that some creatures had a higher defense than others.

3 - Group target, use the highest Defense in the group for everyone. Acrobatic defense is like Wheeling Defense above. Emotion Song if the total Audience is too big, the Adept Targets only a portion of the audience with each 10 minute segment. So it does seem loosely target-able. I see little reason why somebody would want to affect any lessor number than the maximum that they can, but if somebody wanted to I see no reason why they could not. The important parts that I see here however is that since it is designed to be useful for affecting a large number of people, it does not have the +1 per additional target bit, and while it does have a limit upon how many people can have their attitude changed in a single 10 minute interval, it is repeatable. So it has reasonable target numbers and is useful without being overbearing. Heartening Laugh is another very cleverly balanced talent. It affects all allies, and there is no reason one would ever want an Ally excluded. It is rolled against the Highest SD of all opponents. Due to the fact that it is rolled against Opponents, but buffs your allies it makes no thematic or mechanical sense to allow the exclusion of any opponent. It is cleverly balanced for the small combats common in adventuring. But you are correct, this Talent does use the terms opponents and allies and does not ever use the term Target Group, and thus does not allow any additions or exclusions of ether allies or opponents by any method less crude than changing the volume of your laugh. Graceful Exit is another very cleverly balanced talent. As you note, the Adept can freely include or exclude Allies from the effect. This makes it possible for someone to say "wow, Bob is sure in a pickle, I better pull him out of there", and make a Graceful Exit test choosing only "Bob" as an extra companion, and they leave the fight while the rest of the party battles on. After a close reading however, I see that it refers to the opponents as a Target Group. I have to say that I see nothing to say that you could not exclude certain opponents from your Graceful Exit test. I see very few reasons why anybody would ever do so, and in fact it would usually be a pretty risky if not stupid thing to do, but I see no reason why it could not theoretically could be done. The target number is based upon your Target Groups highest social defense and is not increased by the number of opponents you face, so the only reason to ever do this is if you suspect that some opponents have a much higher SD than others. If you do exclude some opponents, you leave them free to attack you, and you can't attack them or in fact do anything to defend yourself except run. without ending the effect upon your actual Target Group. So like I said, stupid, but I think you could do it if you wanted to. The point being that yes, you could have some opponents dazzled by your graceful exit but not others if you wanted to be stupid.

4 - Group target, use highest Defense in the group +1 for each additional character. As I have said previously. My understanding, bolstered by everything that I have read, how I have always seen these talents work, my understanding of the mechanics of how the powers are balenced, and the answers to this specific question on the fasa forum, has always been that Adept using the power gets to pick his target group. He gets to freely pick his Target Group from all the Potential Targets that are within Range / Hearing / Sight. The Adept gets to make a guess at picking his Target Number. If he chooses, he can affect only one creature, making the test against it's Defense Number. He can choose a small group, adding two or three to the highest defense number in his target group. He can choose a large group adding many more. If he desires he can usually even attempt to affect a truly huge number of Targets, possibly many multiples of his Talent Rank. However succeeding would require a truly heroic roll. It gives the Adept a great deal of flexibility, but at the cost that the more targets he chooses to include, the lessor the chances of even a single success. It is not meant to hamstring the Adept into being forced to attempt unreasonably high TN against and unreasonably high number of Potential Targets.

I could go into a lot of detail about any of the Talents that I am going to briefly address below, but I have chosen "Conversation" as the one to address in detail. Any of the others could have been chosen.

Shaalwyd wrote:

Lasting Impression and Conversation both work against the whole group. You either leave a lasting impression or you don't; you either shine in the conversation or you don't. The group in this case is the social group with which you are interacting. Conversation has the additional restriction of how many people that group may contain: you cannot shine in a conversation consisting of six people if you have only two ranks of Conversation. You're simply overshadowed. What you want is to get two of those people to break off into a smaller group with you, and then shine. No, you may not talk in your group of six, but only roll Conversation against two of the participants. (Conversation has the strictest limitations of any Talent.)

I think that a lot of this is unwarranted assumption.

Allow me to set a scene:We have wrangled an invitation to a small and intimate banquette with the Governor. Just the Governor, his wife, 4 of the town dignitaries and myself and my 3 adventuring companions. 9 people not counting myself nor the servants. 6 people not counting myself nor my allies. I have a Conversation rank of 3. I could not affect the whole table if I wanted to, fortunately for me I don't need to. I have no need to affect my 3 companions, and have no interest in affecting the town dignitaries. I am only interested in improving the attitude of the Governor and his wife, before I ask him for the big favor I desire. We adventurers are scattered about the table, but I make sure I get the seat that is offered to us that is closest to my Targets, leaving my companions to sit further down the table. I listen intently and make good eye contact with the governor and his wife, sparing just enough eye contact for everybody else to avoid appearing rude. I pay attention to my manors and use the correct forks. Gathering my Magic and concentrating upon my chosen Targets, I feel inspired to tell an amusing anecdote about the time one of my companions, a T'Skrang, almost got eaten by a crocodile. It goes over well with the entire table and conversation at the far end of the table drops down a bit as they listen to my story. I listen enthusiastically as others make conversation. I look for topics that are of interest to one or more of my chosen targets, and my magic feeds me this information. I feed straight lines to both Governor and his wife. Occasionally I turn to make short conversation to the woman upon my left, but only when none of my targets desire my attention. I tell several more short anecdote's about topics one or more of my targets finds interesting. I ask leading questions about their own stories. At some point during the meal I make the Conversation Action Test and spend karma upon it. My target number is the highest SD of my 2 targets, plus 1. Nobody else at the banquette is affected. They do not think I "shined" in the conversation, because much of the time we were discussing topics that were of no particular interest to them. Much of my witty banter was not directed at them. I did not "hog" the conversation, and everybody else got a chance to talk, but I did make the most of the time I was talking. None of them think I was particularly rude, but they don't think I was the life of the party, though they might gather the Governor thinks I was. Since my Conversation rank was 3 I could have affected one more person had I so chosen, but to do so I would have had to spend slightly less time and eye contact with the other targets, so I did not bother. I could not have affected the whole table even if I wanted to attempt a TN that high.

That scenario met every listed requirement of the Talent. "The adept is able to make a favorable impression in social situations through tone and word choice appropriate to the situation. The adept makes a Conversation test against the highest Social Defense among the target group (the two people I chose), +1 for each additional character. If successful, the Attitude of the target characters (the two people I chose) rises favorably toward the adept by one degree (for example, from Neutral to Friendly) for the duration of the conversation and for a number of days afterwards equal to the adept’s Conversation rank. The target’s Attitude cannot be improved further while the talent is in effect. The adept can use this talent on a maximum number of characters equal to his Conversation rank at one time. (there were 9 other people present, but I only used this talent upon 2)"

So once again, I see nothing to indicate that everybody present or that is standing next to each other needs be affected as a "whole group". I have it on excellent authority that they don't and that the Adept is able to choose his targets, just like almost every other talent that does not have an Area of Effect specified. I see no reason for an assumption that with Conversation the Target Group must be the whole social group with which you are interacting. I see of no reason why you cannot shine in a conversation consisting of six people if you have only two ranks of Conversation. It is merely that only two people will think that you "shined" to such a degree that they like you a lot more. You are not overshadowed by their being more than 2 or 3 people present when you make conversation. There is no reason to get your Targets into a private conversation and then "shine".

Shaalwyd wrote:

Battle Bellow limits the number of targets by a specified distance, rather than leaving it to the GM to determine who is 'in earshot'. It is unique among combat-oriented Talents in that it is both a buff to your allies and a debuff to your enemies, which means both that the payoff is greater if it succeeds and that the number of targets is automatically greater.

I feel strongly that it in no way limits the number of targets by a specified distance. It limits the number of Potential Targets by a specified distance. The actual number of targets is limited by how many Targets the Adept chooses to put in his Target Group. An automatic and unavoidable increase to the Target Number equal to the number of allies you have means that much less likely to get additional successes on you enemies. Or even one success at all. Having the ability to give the buff to your allies close combat attacks as an option is a nice feature. Having it as a permanent obstacle to your ability to debuff you opponents is not.

Shaalwyd wrote:

This could have been done as a "Compare result to each" Talent, which would greatly lessen the difficulty. But Battle Bellow is way more awesome than Air Speaking or Lifesight, and making it that easy would be unbalanced. It could have had the same restriction as Fearsome Charge - choose a number of targets up to your Rank in the Talent, and compare your result to each of those. It wasn't. It is, instead a "highest Defense + 1 per additional" talent. Of that category, I think it is most comparable to Inspire Others, which is the only other of that category which can be used in combat. Inspire Others is a Standard Action, lasts for multiple rounds, and gives fairly potent bonuses; Battle Bellow is a Simple Action, but lasts only a single round and gives minor bonuses/penalties. We're comparing apples and oranges, but we're not comparing apples and suspension bridges.

I agree with everything here. "Compare result to each" without limiting the number of targets is way too unbalancing. Amazingly unbalanced. Even giving it the limitation of Rank Targets like fearsome charge has would be unbalancing since a Cavalryman rarely gets to charge each and every round. The "affects Rank Targets" test against highest SD is the most powerful power in the game. Instead they chose to limit Battle Bellow by allowing the Adept to freely pick how many targets he wants it to affect, but having it raise the TN by one for each additional Target he chooses. It is very balanced. It is more powerful than Battle Shout, which affects only a single target. In can in theory affect more people than Fearsome Charge or a Fireball spell, but only at the cost of fewer (or no) successes. Letting the Adept pick the number of targets it will affect is very balanced with all the other methods of doing Target Numbers.

Arcane Muttering and Inspire Others and everything else: For reasons above, I disagree with the assertions that you can't freely direct your mutterings or exhortations to some and not others. Leaving "its magic" aside, I see no reason why one could not use specific eye contact, body language etc. to specifically make others know that you are talking specifically to them.

So I hope that this post might have convinced some people who don't see how it can work "cinematiclly". And I hope it has convinced people to see how it is the best option mechanically. It all seems so very clear to me that the interpritation that has been given in the past is the only way it could work. Anything else too frequently makes the powers unusable due to excessively high target numbers.

So once again, while I appreciate the effort that everybody is making to go over the talents in detail and state their opinion, it does little good until we agree upon the definition of a "Target Group". How all of these powers work depends upon how you define the term "Target Group". I think we all understand how they would all work if we define it one way, and we all understand how it would work if we defined it ether of the other ways.

I hope I have laid out my arguments clearly and in not too rambling a fashion. I would hope that my appeals to relevant authority are convincing, and/or that they will very soon once again say the same thing as when the question was asked in the past.

I see no reason to assume that unlike specifically targeted talents, Talents that are targeted up to a specific target limit, and unlike almost every other effect that does not have an Area of Effect specified, Talents that are targeted at a Target Group with a TN of Plus one to each additional Target can't be individually targeted with the Adept choosing who is or is not Targeted.

Nor do I see anything that even hints that all Potential Targets must be Targets. In almost every situation where the talent does not specify some other selection method the Adept gets to choose his targets.

Chris, I'd like to start by saying that I appreciate how clearly you have laid out your arguments, and that you have been able to see to the crux of the issue rather than getting hung up on surface details. Thank you for that!

I agree that the definition of "Target Group" is what's causing the dispute here.

chrisddickey wrote:

In almost every situation where the talent does not specify some other selection method the Adept gets to choose his targets.

This is the assumption you have made that I do not see evidence for. What I was attempting to demonstrate with my breakdown is that the only times an adept gets to choose specific targets - Rules As Written - is when there is a singular target, or when the maximum number of targets is limited by some means. You have assumed that Rules As Intended is that all viable targets are Potential Targets, and that the adept can specify which individuals they wish to make their Target Group, but it is an assumption.

It is also, as I said, circular logic. "The target group is a group that consists of the targets I choose," is a self-defining statement. I'm not sure how much more clearly I can explain that than, "A is a group that consists of A." You have not in any way added to our understanding of what A is or can be by that statement, because A depends on A. Yes, it is the same thing as saying, "My purchases consist of the items I choose to buy," which is why - if we were attempting to use that information to determine anything - it would be a terrible definition. True, but fundamentally useless. Contrast that with, "My purchases consist of items not exceeding a total value of $100, because that's how much I have to spend," which is is roughly equivalent to, "My targets consist of a number of creatures up to my Rank in this Talent."

The only thing I can find in the book that talks about who counts as a target when there is more than one target is, as you quoted in your initial post, in the Spells section.

Player's Guide, p. 268 wrote:

Some spells affect multiple targets in a given area, or affect a space rather than an individual. These spells will have an area of effect, usually measured as a radius in yards.

This gives us the definition for what constitutes an area of effect. Something that affects multiple targets in a given area, or affects a space rather than an individual, has an area of effect, usually measured as a radius in yards.

Battle Bellow affects multiple targets in an area of radius x10 yards. If we use the definition under Spells to determine what an Area of Effect is - which is the only definition we are given - Battle Bellow has an area of effect.

Player's Guide, p. 269 wrote:

A spell affects all targets within its area of effect, regardless of whether they are friend or foe; it is possible for a careless magician to damage allies with an area effect damaging spell. Many spells with an area of effect allow a caster to weave additional threads to designate characters in the spell’s area of effect that will not be affected by the spell.

Therefore, Battle Bellow affects all targets within its area of effect, regardless of whether they are friend or foe.

These definitions are specifically about Spells. Do they apply to Talents?

\"Player's Guide, p. 119 wrote:

Talents draw on every aspect of the game system: tests, combat, spell magic, and so on. The brief explanations of these elements are referenced to the more complete explanations provided elsewhere in this book.

In other words, unless there is something specifically in the Talents section which changes the way it works, it works the same way as it is explained in Spells.

If you can find any reference in the book that talks about selecting targets being the default, please point me to it. I don't actually like the thought that we've been doing this wrong all along. However, Rules As Written seem fairly clear: something that affects multiple targets in an given area has an Area of Effect, and things that have an Area of Effect affect all targets in said area.

Yes, this means that you might choose not to Battle Bellow when there are a dozen enemies on the field. The DN is likely to be prohibitively high; you might choose to Battle Shout instead, choosing the high likelihood of reducing the effectiveness of a single target over the low likelihood of reducing the effectiveness of all your enemies and increasing the effectiveness of all your close-combat allies. When there are two or four enemies on the field, your decision might be different.

Allowing the Talent to selectively target only allies or only enemies makes this more manageable, as does the offer to allow an activity, characteristic, or positioning to define the target group. This is not Rules As Written, but it seems like a fair compromise. It allows a degree of flexibility - so you don't have to target everyone on the entire battlefield - without allowing you to cherrypick according to stats you only know out of character, because you do not have and have not used Creature Analysis.

There are other parts of your post that I have not addressed; please do not think that this is because I have ignored them. I agree with you on what the central question is here, and have chosen not to talk about the extraneous things because without agreement on that central question, they do not matter.

Chris. Since this entire argument is based on INTERPRETATION of literally reading the same sentences and GUESSING that it means something different pretty much sums up there are ZERO facts to be had. We are reading two the same thing and GUESSING it means two different things. Do not try and make me come off as close minded. I just disagree based on what is written in the book.

From a cinematic standpoint (Which is HIGHLY what ED is supposed to be) it also make ZERO sense to me. I am going to Bellow at that group of five people but only two of them are going to be effect. MAKES NO SENSE. NONE. The argument even with how well thought out has at this point become circular with no new "facts" being introduced and that makes this the point in which I bow out of conversations because I am not going to read the same argument or repeat it multiple times.

Fasa has deliberately been quiet on this issue not sure why. Honestly, I see both interpretations as correct.

to example 2 diffrent talents Heartening LaughStep: Rank + CHA Action: SimpleStrain: 1 Skill Use: Yes (Novice)The adept bolsters morale by directing a booming, mocking laugh at his opponents and making a Heartening Laugh test against the highest Social Defense among all opponents within earshot. If successful, any characters Friendly to the adept and who hear the laugh add a +2 bonus per success to their Social Defense against effects based on fear or intimidation, as well as to any Willpower tests made to shake off those effects for a number of rounds equal to his Heartening Laugh rank.

that's pretty clear on who it affects everyone in the talents range as an AOE ability

Battle BellowStep: Rank + CHA Action: SimpleStrain: 1 Skill Use: Yes (Journeyman)The adept issues a great bellow, inspiring his allies and intimidating his enemies. The targets must be in the adept’s Battle Bellow rank x10 yards. The adept makes a Battle Bellow test against the highest Social Defense among the target group, +1 for each additional target. If successful, enemies affected by the talent suffer a -1 penalty to their tests per success scored until the end of the following round. Friendly targets gain the number of successes as a bonus to their close-combat Attack tests. Targets which are immune to fear are immune to this talent’s effects.

So We can at least say battle bellow does not hit all targets in range as it group. TBH The +1 for each additional target can imply some choice as to what is going to be hit. I hate the idea of forcing additional +1 if there are 20 guys packed together. "Target group" is so fing unclear what that means Target is easy I am pointing at that one. If you add a target from anywhere else it could be called a group. nothing implies continuous group... that's on Chris's side... now cinematic interpretation you turn your head at a AOE circle/cone/block & line and that's your group everyone in that focus is effected. you can argue that you would be just affecting the first row or push it further in.

The GM's are all leaning to cinematic answer. Honestly right now let's call it a compromise and just figure out how many targets. that at least we can say it's not everyone on the battlefield or it would have had battle bellows "all opponents within earshot" as part of its description.

can we agree on at least the person bellowing can only affect people in a group or arc but how many targets that are hit the namegiver has some control. No scattershot of targets, everyone has to be close to each other relatively. forcing him to target everyone could make the target number unrealistic.

I see little reason to rush to a decisions until new facts come in. My google-fu has been failing me, as I can't seem to find any keywords narrow enough to find any other times mataxes has addressed the question on the forums, and it seems he might be checking the fasa forums now rather infrequently. But hopefully he will soon.

I have seen a bunch of people log in and out of FASA's channel, they have refused to answer the question. So it goes back to the GM's and us to find common ground. Until FASA replys back saying +1 are self-targeted(like spells you spent extra threads to hit extra targets. until that point lets focus on a group and move on from there.