Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day014.19
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20
Q. Well, who is the "we"?
A. Well, I frequently find out what the Jewish organizations
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are planning against me because it is announced in the
Jewish Chronicle. They say, "Meet outside Mr Irving's
flat, 81 Duke Street, 12.00 midday". That is how I know
when these demonstrations are going to happen.
Q. It is not the Royal "we", Mr Irving. "I read the Jewish
Chronicle to find out what we are doing". Who are the "we"?
A. I have no idea.
Q. "There is an article here only a couple of weeks ago
called 'Anti-Semites ask for cash in latest sophisticated
forgery'" -- not, by any chance, the united anti-Semites
then, the "we"?
A. I have got no idea what the article is about.
Q. Well, you must have done because you mentioned it.
A. Well, it certainly was not me so I cannot see what the
reference is.
Q. "This is, of course, an unusual twist as it is not usually
anti-Semites who are asking for cash in sophisticated
forgeries. A man called Mr Mike Whine, the director of
the board of deputies of British Jews", Mike W-H-I-N- E,
you spell it ----
A. You will appreciate the reason why I do not like Mike
Whine because I discovered that he is the person who has
dedicated much of his life to destroying my career and
livelihood by now, and that those documents are also in
the bundle.
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Q. I might not like the black man who is my enemy, but I am
not likely to use the fact that he is black in order to
defend myself, am I, Mr Irving?
A. I do not criticise anybody because of their colour,
Mr Rampton.
Q. Then why do you make such again with Mr Whine's name?
A. Because I am defensive about the man. The man has spent
many years trying to destroy me. He has maintained a
dossier full of the most evil and defamatory and lying
facts about me which he puts to foreign governments with
the intention of destroying my career, as we now know.
Q. You do not like Mr Whine. I understand that.
A. With good reason, and because he is Jewish does not make
him immune from my criticism.
Q. Precisely. But the fact that he is Jewish has nothing to
do with your criticism either?
A. I am perfectly entitled to make fun of his name among
other ways of getting back at him.
Q. "I am bothered by their names". That is more people than
just poor Mr Mike Wine, is it not?
A. We had this in another speech too and I have listed a
whole bunch of names, Wieseltier and so on.
Q. I am going to read on. Please be quiet. "I love them
dearly, I really do, believe me. I love them very dearly,
yet around the world they have these extraordinary names.
In Australia the man who has defamed me so consistently
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has now received from my lawyers in West Australia four
libel writs. His name is Mr Izzy Leibler".
A. Leibler, L E I B L E R. That has been misspelt.
Q. "Laughter".
A. Yes, if a man's name is Leibler and he has received from
me four libel writs, it seems singularly apposite.
Q. Mr Irving, that is a perfectly decent joke. It is a pity
it is misspelt, is it not?
A. It has been consider in your copy but I know how to spell
properly. His name is L E I B L E R and his brother, Mark
Leibler, spells it the same way, oddly enough. They are
both multi-millionaires and they have used their money to
try and destroy my career in Australia.
Q. I am sorry, L I E B L E R?
MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, it is misspelt. It is L E I. That is
the point.
MR RAMPTON: Oh I see.
A. Which is pronounced by any normal person as "libeller".
He is careful to pronounce it as "leebeller".
MR RAMPTON: Let us pass on, Mr Irving. "If I had a name like
wine, W H I N E, or Leibler, it reminds me of Brentwood
School, where I want to school. Perhaps I ought not to
read out the name of the school. There was a boy in our
class called Bottomwetten".
A. There is another one called Jack Straw.
Q. "What bravery to carry the name of Bottomwetten, not only
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just through your own life, but also through generations
before you, passing this name proudly down. Whine,
Leibler. I would be inclined to change my name by deed
poll, not once but twice, in case anyone asked what my
previous name was". I am going to pause there, Mr Irving.
A. You will recognize this as the old gramophone record, you see.
Q. Yes. The old gramophone record, indeed I do. Mr Irving,
when you were being cross-examined by me some days ago,
there was a reference to a footnote in van Pelt's report,
I think it was, it matters not, to a book edited by a lady
called Deborah Burnstone.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember that, when that was drawn to your
attention, you pronounced that name "Bronsteen"?
A. No, I do not.
Q. I will find it for you in the transcript. If I am right, why?
A. I have no idea. I have no recollection of that episode at all.
Q. Why this interest in names? What does it matter what a
person is called?
A. You are putting this to me and I am hearing it for the
first time. I am as astonished as you are. If I read it
like that, then that was the way I read the name.
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Q. No. You did not read it like that. You knew that she was
called Burnstone?
A. Why would I know that she was called Burnstone?
Q. Because it is in the footnote and it was read out to you.
A. If I misread it, misreadings do occur. You have been
misreading words----
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us wait until we have found the docment.
A. You have been repeatedly misreading words throughout the
last few days but I have not commented on that.
MR RAMPTON: "Do not worry. I will come back to it tomorrow.
You may have a chance to answer properly. Let me go on.
The problem is somebody has apparently issued a leaflet.
I am sure that none of us here is personally responsible.
The hoax, including a picture on the front cover of a
notorious saisai" -- what is that? "Anti-Semitic forgery.
The protocols of the learned elders of Zion. The covers
cartoon which protects its serpent encircling the world
used to have a traditional crude character of a hideous
Jewish face, but it now includes instead a picture of
Gerry Gable. I wonder how they spotted the difference."
A. You know the connection with Gerry Gable, of course. Or
shall I explain it to you?
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know it so you do not need to.
MR RAMPTON: I do not want to know.
A. Gerry Gable is also no friend of mine, so I am quite happy
to describe him in these terms.
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Q. I see. Another of your enemies whom you insult by, as it
were, comparing with a hideous Jewish face - is that right?
A. Whether he is Jewish or not is neither here nor there. He
is hideous, he is immoral, he has spent the last 36 years
of his life trying to destroy me and my family because he
has a criminal conviction for breaking into my house.
Q. But the insult which you have prepared -- apparently they
thought it was jolly funny because they laughed -- for
Mr Gable is that he should replace the hideous Jewish
face, is it not?.
A. Well, it certainly was not forged by me. I do know who
did that but obviously other people hold the same opinion
of Mr Gable as I do.
Q. My problems began in October of last year when I was
speaking in Los Angeles and I received a letter from the
Canadian government telling me not to come home on my
projected tour of Canada which was to cover 17 cities from
Vancouver right the way across to Ottawa. The Canadian
governments had been alerted by the Simon Wiesenthal
Institute in Los Angeles and immediately clicked their
heels together and said "Ja vohl, Herr Wiesenthal, we will
not let him in". Now tell me about this Wiesenthal
again. I asked you before and you said, "Oh no, it is not
the well known Simon Wiesenthal".
A. Well, of course, H I E R is the director of the Wiesenthal
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Centre. The Wiesenthal Centre in Los Angeles has no
connection with Simon Wiesenthal apart from the concession
they pay him every year for the use of his name.
Q. But it is a Jewish organization, is it?
A. I imagine that they restrict their intake of employees to
Jews, yes, but I have no information on that.
Q. I do not know about that, but it is some kind of Jewish
institute in Los Angeles, no doubt in some part concerned
with the history of the Holocaust?
A. Yes, I have collaborated with them in the past with
documents and things.
Q. Then comes the stuff about the Wiesenthal facial
appearance and its comparison with the Halloween mask.
A. I think I should explain. It may very well help his
Lordship. This date is wrong on this. It is not 1992, it
is definitely 1993, after I have had to go through the
harrowing episode of being deported and handcuffed on the
floor of an Air Canada plane, after I have been thrown out
of Germany. All these things have happened as the result
of the machinations of these people around the world,
after I have been banned from Australia. So I am afraid
you have the wrong year on this and suddenly everything
clicks into place. I am perfectly entitled to criticise
these people for what they have done to me.
Q. As we noticed before, when an anti-Semite is rattled or
riled, out comes the anti-Semitic language.
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A. No, critical language. This is unfortunately where you
make a mistake, Mr Rampton. When you are critical of what
the Jews do to you as Jews, it is not anti-Semitism. They
are entitled to take their action against me as Jews but,
if I criticise them, it becomes anti-Semitism. Have
I understood correctly?
Q. No, you have not. I do not think you are trying, actually.
A. I am trying very hard to understand the point that you are
trying to make.
Q. The answer to one's enemies is not that they are ugly Jews
with silly names, it is that they are acting badly, is it not?
A. They were doing all of it.
Q. But what relevance is it that they have ugly Jewish faces
and silly Jewish names?
A. Well, you are talking about the ugly Jewish face. You are
referring to the episode with the Halloween mask in which
the word "Jew" does not figure. We are talking about a
man who is well known for not being a particularly
beautiful gentleman.
Q. What relevance has it to your defence against him that he
happens not to be beautiful?
A. I am just making fun of him. If I had made fun of any
other person who was not Jewish, it would never have
occurred to them to say this is anti-Semitism or
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anti-Asian or anti-French. If I made fun of Monsieur
Mitterand, for example, or Jacques Cherac, I would not be
accused of being anti-French if I said that he had a
ridiculous face that looked like a Halloween mask. I
would be accused of being anti-Mitterand or anti-Cherac.
But, because we are talking here about Wiesenthal,
suddenly different rules apply.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, when you reach a convenient moment?
MR RAMPTON: I have not quite finished this, I am afraid.
A. He is beginning to whimper a bit and he wants to find a----
MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, that is unnecessary. We will be here a
long time if you go on.
MR RAMPTON: You are not going to provoke me at this time of
night, Mr Irving. I can do another two of these things or
I can stop and do them in the morning.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you finished on this particular document?
MR RAMPTON: I have finished on Wiesenthal.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I think, in all the circumstances, we
will adjourn until 10.30 until tomorrow morning.
(The witness withdrew)
(The court adjourned until the following day)
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