/m/rays

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Hallion called out a player on the field. That is clearly either against an agreed upon code of conduct by the umpires... or it should be.

Having said THAT, I do not agree that you should be talking about firing, or even suspension. It sould be a warning from his superior or the like if this is an isolated incident. And whether it is or it isn;t, I have no idea... but his superior certainly should.

Not insinuating that Price is a liar. Not saying he's mistaken. Saying he's a liar. With those exact words. "He's a liar." What's the point of putting that in the press unless you're promoting your new country album?

As thetailor says, if Hallion didn't say what Price claims, he's probably really pissed. If Hallion's version is true, I don't begrudge him calling Price a liar. If not, it's terrible.

Hallion called out a player on the field. That is clearly either against an agreed upon code of conduct by the umpires... or it should be.

Then the players should keep their mouths shut, and stop the prima-donna pantomines. You can't let the players bait the umps, and expect them never to respond.

#50: There are other ways of proclaiming innocence without saying someone's a liar. I mean, it pretty much invites a feud to call a guy a liar. I don't know how that is a benefit to the game where an umpire encourages a feud with a player.

As a fan of the White Sox during the Ozzie Guillen years, I watched that knucklehead impugn many an umpire's moral turpitude and professionalism. Hunter Wendlestedt, Bruce Froemming and the like got accused of all sorts of things that would make Tim Donaghy blush--not just cursing at a player. I might have suspected Ozzie was right from time to time (more often, he was FOS) but contra Hallion, they didn't attack the other guy, even if no one in MLB would have begrudged them in the slightest.

What's so hard about saying "If he thinks I said that, he's mistaken." That sure beats "He's a liar." I mean, we're not nitpicking what some random celeb says that's causing the latest controversy. An umpire is a neutral abitrator. He can't be insulting people he's supposed to be neutral about, never mind the amount of grandstanding picking a fight with a superstar suggests about the guy's Joe Westian tendencies.

Anyway, I'd hardly suggest the dude should immediately and without prejudice be fired. But I would say if I were watching David Price pitch in the future and saw that this guy was calling the game it would make me question the integrity of the game. Is that something MLB should encourage?

This whole argument about fixed strike zones is a red herring. Pitch F/X already accounts for player height per batter and any roboump system, whether based on Pitch F/X or a new tech, would do the same thing.

This. Do we really know if the sensors can monitor a 3-D zone, that changes from batter to batter, in real-time, with an acceptable error rate?

A. Human umpires aren't so good that improving from them is a high bar to cross. We don't have to achieve perfection to get a marked improvement from humans calling balls and strikes.

#53: I get that he's pissed if his story true (though I have serious doubts it is). However, it's not his job to pick fights with players if he's pissed. He did that not just in the heat of the moment on the field but in front of reporters after the game. His job is to be dispassionate. To be "pissed" is human. To pick a fight with a player twice in the same day because you're pissed is also human, but in the same way that failing to do your job properly is also a very human trait for many people.

It could be tried. Argue too long or hard that the runner should have been out at second, and the umpire can move him to third.

In certain cases this would be a much steeper penalty than an ejection. And allowing umps the discretion to make this call would inject a lot of uncertainty into games. I'd hate to be "that team that lost that important game because the umpire decided to give a base penalty and it ended up being the difference in the game."

You can't let the players bait the umps, and expect them never to respond.

This blows my mind. OF COURSE you expect that. It's literally their job description. 'You can't let criminals spit in cops' faces, and expect the cops never to flip out and beat this #### out of them.'

This blows my mind. OF COURSE you expect that. It's literally their job description. 'You can't let criminals spit in cops' faces, and expect the cops never to flip out and beat this #### out of them.'

If someone spits in a cop's (or anyone else's face) I'm 100% OK with the spitter getting the #### beat out of them.

If a player spit in an ump's face, and the ump decked him, I'd favor a long suspension for the player, and no discipline for the ump.

There is ample room between no reaction and physical violence. A player being unhappy with a call is human. Umps should expect that. Players are going to be upset when the call goes against them whether it is correct or not. Fans as well. You can't have umps taking THAT personally. If a player keeps it to protesting the call and not being personally insulting, the ump has to take it.

If a player crosses the line to make it personal, or get physical (including spitting) then, no, the ump shouldn't have to take it.

Didn't umps used to not ever speak to the press as a matter of principle? I would think it a good position.

It's interesting that (at least according to that PitchFX graphic) pitch #5 (which Price said was in the same spot as pitch #4) was farther from pitch #4 than pitch #4 was from being out of the strike zone.

There is ample room between no reaction and physical violence. A player being unhappy with a call is human. Umps should expect that. Players are going to be upset when the call goes against them whether it is correct or not. Fans as well. You can't have umps taking THAT personally. If a player keeps it to protesting the call and not being personally insulting, the ump has to take it.

If a player crosses the line to make it personal, or get physical (including spitting) then, no, the ump shouldn't have to take it.

I agree. I just don't see "Just throw the ball" as some big, out-of-line, reaction.

I think SoSH pretty much nails it with his post. In the NFL, refs respond by throwing a flag. In the NBA, refs respond by issuing a technical foul. Baseball doesn't have that mechanism.

Concur. Their only weapon (ejection) is too severe to be used all the time.

Oh, sorry, am I late for the all umpires are union scum conversation? (see #3, "Look for the union label" and #6 "Hallion deserves to get fired").

There is nothing to see here. Hallion blew the call, and took exception when Price reacted. He said something not really noteworthy (which everyone agrees was either "ball" or "f*cking ball") and it's over.

i don't care if he's union or not. I care that he has demonstrated that he can't fulfill the most important aspect of his job, which is to remain impartial.

i don't care if he's union or not. I care that he has demonstrated that he can't fulfill the most important aspect of his job, which is to remain impartial.

Innuendo aside, nobody has yet demonstrated, or even really attemped to demonstrate, that Hallion saying "just throw the ball" was some kind of biased or otherwise not impartial act. If Hallion is a professional, and he undoubtedly is, he won't hold it against Price.

If a player crosses the line to make it personal, or get physical (including spitting) then, no, the ump shouldn't have to take it.

I agree. I just don't see "Just throw the ball" as some big, out-of-line, reaction.

It's a reaction to nothing. Did Price say anything over the line or threaten Hallion physically? No? Then Hallion should say nothing to him.

I don't agree he should be fired (for that). But it was out of line and unprofessional.

Calling Price a liar in a presser was a terrible idea, though. It completely destroys any idea that the ump is impartial. Hallion (and other umps) should not comment about on field confrontations such as this except through their union or MLB.

Limited ability to discipline? Kinda. But many a time has an umpire registered his displeasure with a player by punishing his team. That's a kind of discipline. Also umps have near carte-blanche to say things to a player that would make a sailor blush. I'm sure basketball and football refs say stuff, but I rarely see a ref get in a players face, spittle flying, chests bumping slightly and going back and forth like they're about to come to blows.

And of course soccer refs take their own lives in their hands if they even think of stuff like that.

Calling Price a liar in a presser was a terrible idea, though. It completely destroys any idea that the ump is impartial. Hallion (and other umps) should not comment about on field confrontations such as this except through their union or MLB.

This is the big thing. It's one thing to lose your cool in the heat of a confrontation. It's another thing to carry that with you to the locker room when your job requires you to remain impartial. And yes, there is a world of difference between "He must have misunderstood or he thought he heard something I didn't say" and "He is a liar"

Like, really. Even if Hallion DIDN'T say what Price claims he says, that does not necessarily make Price a liar. But in Hallion's eyes--as far as we know--that guy who pitches for the Devil Rays tried to accuse him of something he didn't do ON PURPOSE AND MALICIOUSLY. And this guy, who Hallion just publicly accused of doing this thing will probably pitch in front of Hallion again.

But many a time has an umpire registered his displeasure with a player by punishing his team.

No moreso than other sports. And of course, this "many a time" is primarily based on our perception of things, not hard evidence.

I'm sure basketball and football refs say stuff, but I rarely see a ref get in a players face, spittle flying, chests bumping slightly and going back and forth like they're about to come to blows.

Do you routinely see football players get in a ref's face, spittle flying, chests bumping sligthly and going back and forth like they're about to come to blows? Generally speaking, on the diamond, these incidents start with the player, not the umpire.

Do you routinely see football players get in a ref's face, spittle flying, chests bumping sligthly and going back and forth like they're about to come to blows? Generally speaking, on the diamond, these incidents start with the player, not the umpire.

I don't think this should be tolerated by players/managers either fwiw. They should be ejected, and appropriately fined/suspended by mlb. What should not happen, is that the umpire gets back at the player/manager beyond that. Umpires can't take this personally, and put their own personal feelings above the rules.

I don't think this should be tolerated by players/managers either fwiw.

But it is. And I don't see any reason to think it's going away. Which is one reason you end up with more confrontational umpires.

And I really disagree with the idea that this act by Hallion "destroys any idea that the umpire is impartial."

Hallion was out of bounds, particularly with his post-game comments. And the league should hit him for it. But the idea that he can't be impartial in his job because he called David Price a liar is beyond a stretch, IMO (and from my professional perspective). It's undoubtedly true there are dozens of players and managers each umpire likes/dislikes for any number of reasons. That doesn't mean the umps are incapable of not being influenced by these personal feelings when it comes to calling balls/strikes, out/safe. I'm sure it happens with some, but it's by no means guaranteed.

#63 Hockey refs don't yell back. They can (and do) hand out unsportsmanlike conduct penalties when a certain line is crossed.

In theory only the captain and assistant captains can talk to the refs. Rugby refs are fairly strict on this (or can be). Hockey refs not so much, though every so often they'll call the captain over and tell him to tell one of his players to shut up.

I'd love to see a system where arguing the call is outlawed. Just like with balls and strikes, instant ejection.

The counterweight would be to make a decent % of the umps pay incentive based. Say, take 25% of their current pay and put it in a bonus pool. Every call would be reviewed by the league, and the most accurate umps over the course of the season.get a bigger bonus. The worst umps get no bonus.

If a player screams in an umpires face they should be ejected, and depending on the severity, fined and/or suspended.

Nothing in that response involves the umpire screaming back.

And that isn't even what happened here. Price DIDN'T say anything at the umpire. He showed his frustration, because that is absolutely human nature and if the umpire thinks that is out of line... then maybe he should choose a different profession.

How did some people lose sight of the idea that the umpire has to be held to a higher standard? The umpires are the only people on the field with nothing at stake - they have the least reason to flip out and, being the representatives of the league, the most reason not to.

To make it into a labor issue or call for a firing is the most ridiculous panty-waisted thing I've ever heard on BBTF.

So you honestly believe that Hallion's actions would be exactly the same if he, as an individual, were held responsible in a meaningful way for his actions? If his (and Joe West's, and C.B. Bucknor's, and...) employment status depended upon his performance and professionalism, you don't see how this would play out any differently?

I want to see if you're enough of a slappy to outright lie in an effort to toe the line.

The counterweight would be to make a decent % of the umps pay incentive based. Say, take 25% of their current pay and put it in a bonus pool. Every call would be reviewed by the league, and the most accurate umps over the course of the season.get a bigger bonus. The worst umps get no bonus.

How about do it on an annual basis, and the best 90% get a bonus called "keeping your job" and the bottom 10% get a letter called "termination"?

I'm pretty sure my system is more motivational. These guys have great, high paid jobs. Nothing is going to motivate them more than the threat of losing it.

And no umpire should ever be allowed to interfere in the outcome of a game without clear and convincing reasons, and umps should be suspended or fired for ejecting players without actual physical contact or threat. They are grown men, who gives a #### what some dumb player or manager says, it's the umps job to be the better man, and impartial. Let the league issue fines and suspensions to players/managers for inappropriate behavior.

They already have huge control over the vegas lines by how they call balls and strikes. Being able to eject players for language or even "body language" is just a wide open loop-hole that makes it far easier for the Tim Donaghys in the umpire ranks to manage the games to their backers preference.

How about do it on an annual basis, and the best 90% get a bonus called "keeping your job" and the bottom 10% get a letter called "termination"?

I'm pretty sure my system is more motivational. These guys have great, high paid jobs. Nothing is going to motivate them more than the threat of losing it.

And no umpire should ever be allowed to interfere in the outcome of a game without clear and convincing reasons, and umps should be suspended or fired for ejecting players without actual physical contact or threat. They are grown men, who gives a #### what some dumb player or manager says, it's the umps job to be the better man, and impartial. Let the league issue fines and suspensions to players/managers for inappropriate behavior.

It's people like you that make me think unions may actually be necessary after all.

How about the players and managers stop acting like huge babies? How about a little respect?

If you scream at an ump, you should be ejected. If you curse at an ump you should be suspended 5 games. If you make physical contact with an ump it should be 30. If the contact is intentional, 100 games. Put those rules in effect, and I'll favoring disciplining umps for saying stuff to players.

How did some people lose sight of the idea that the umpire has to be held to a higher standard? The umpires are the only people on the field with nothing at stake - they have the least reason to flip out and, being the representatives of the league, the most reason not to.

What did Hallion do that was so awful? Is Price such a precious little Princess that "Just throw the ball!" even "Just throw the ####### ball!" scarred his little psyche?

Did you guys who are vehemently defending Price actually read the excerpt from TFA?

Before the pool reporter went to the umpire’s room, Price said that Hallion would be a liar if he denied it.

It's Price who showed up Hallion, it's Price who brought up the concept that one of the two of them would be a liar, and it's Price who continued whining to the media before Hallion was ever approached about it.

Just because we like Price and dislike the umpires doesn't mean that everyone should be losing their heads over this and bringing out the pitchforks for Hallion. I like Price, he's awesome. But again, for the tenth time, saying "just pitch the ball" is NOT EQUAL to "instigating a conflict" or "losing his cool" as put forth in #71 and others.

The only way you can jump on Hallion here is if you believer everything Price said AND believe that Hallion should also take the high road after the reporters were sent to him, ready to declare him a liar.

And no umpire should ever be allowed to interfere in the outcome of a game without clear and convincing reasons, and umps should be suspended or fired for ejecting players without actual physical contact or threat. They are grown men, who gives a #### what some dumb player or manager says, it's the umps job to be the better man, and impartial. Let the league issue fines and suspensions to players/managers for inappropriate behavior.

At some point there is an onus on the players/managers to act like adults. Being an umpire brings with it a certain expectation of some verbal abuse but there is a line both in terms of type and amount that should not be crossed. The players don't have license to just scream obscenities at the umpires.

The umpires are the only people on the field with nothing at stake - they have the least reason to flip out and, being the representatives of the league, the most reason not to.

This I agree with. The umpires do deserves to be held to a higher standard. The umpires should be expected to remain impassive for the most part (some yelling in the heat of an argument is reasonable to expect I think) and when the game is over to be able to walk away.

This I agree with. The umpires do deserves to be held to a higher standard. The umpires should be expected to remain impassive for the most part (some yelling in the heat of an argument is reasonable to expect I think) and when the game is over to be able to walk away.

Yes, and aren't they? If a player said what Hallion said, it wouldn't even be noticed.

The main problem, on full display in this thread, is that we have accepted the idea of players and managers screaming at umpires.

A manager should be ejected the second he comes "charging" out of the dugout ... as opposed to walking out of the dugout to have a call explained. (I know, "charging" is too subjective but you get the point.)

It's true the umps' job is to be unobtrusive arbiters of the game ... and the players' job is to play the game. The ump shouldn't get rattled when a player reacts ... and the player shouldn't react when the call goes the other way.

Do you see NFL, NBA and NHL refs react this way? No. But do you see NFL, NBA and NHL players screaming in the refs' faces on a regular basis? No. Isn't it against the rules in all three sports for the coach to come onto the field of play to protest a call?

Hallion over-reacted but that's going to happen when you allow crap like what baseball players and coaches get away with. Stop the other nonsense then crack down on the umps if necessary.

Hallion calling him out at the press conference is unprofessional. MLB should have a clear policy that umps talk to the press only about rule interpretations ... and maybe even those should just be handled through the central office. (I'm not sure I've seen post-game press interviews with NFL, NBA, NHL refs either but I can't rule it out.)

Q: Why is the ump yelling ANYTHING at a player who's walking to the dugout at the end of an inning? Especially a player who has said nothing to the ump?

All too often we see umpires badly blow a call (it happens) and then double down on their mistake by drastically overreacting to players or managers questioning the obviously blown call -- even if only through body language. It's like they're consciously trying to change the subject from their momentary incompetence to whatever behavior the player or manager is exhibiting. Ken Kaiser was a world champ at this, which I assume was a prime reason he was one of the most despised umpires prior to the late '90s purge. I remember an Orioles game in Texas in the mid 80s when Kaiser just butchered a call at first base, and Eddie Murray reacted by just standing with his arms crossed, staring at him, never saying a word. Kaiser then ejected Murray just for looking at him.

The main problem, on full display in this thread, is that we have accepted the idea of players and managers screaming at umpires.

A manager should be ejected the second he comes "charging" out of the dugout ... as opposed to walking out of the dugout to have a call explained. (I know, "charging" is too subjective but you get the point.)

It's true the umps' job is to be unobtrusive arbiters of the game ... and the players' job is to play the game. The ump shouldn't get rattled when a player reacts ... and the player shouldn't react when the call goes the other way.

Do you see NFL, NBA and NHL refs react this way? No. But do you see NFL, NBA and NHL players screaming in the refs' faces on a regular basis? No. Isn't it against the rules in all three sports for the coach to come onto the field of play to protest a call?

Hallion over-reacted but that's going to happen when you allow crap like what baseball players and coaches get away with. Stop the other nonsense then crack down on the umps if necessary.

Hallion calling him out at the press conference is unprofessional. MLB should have a clear policy that umps talk to the press only about rule interpretations ... and maybe even those should just be handled through the central office. (I'm not sure I've seen post-game press interviews with NFL, NBA, NHL refs either but I can't rule it out.)

Agree with everything you said, but Price called out Hallion to the press, and they went looking for the ump. Would a no comment have been better? Sure. But Hallion didn't start the press BS.

So, Walt and Snapper, in your world it's acceptable for an ump to hurt a team's chances of winning by making an incompetent call, but it's somehow not at all acceptable for the affected team's player or manager to express that they're upset by it?

A manager should be ejected the second he comes "charging" out of the dugout ... as opposed to walking out of the dugout to have a call explained. (I know, "charging" is too subjective but you get the point.)

Awesome. So Umps paid by my betting syndicate to protect our side of game bets have yet another wonderful tool, "he looked like he wasn't walking so I ejected him as my right".

Do you see NFL, NBA and NHL refs react this way? No

LOL. Rasheed Wallace has been ejected for an expression, and also for staring.

The Trailblazers had their TV color guy ejected for commenting on what he thought was a bad a call. What he said was barely audible, he was a TV GUY TALKING TO A TV AUDIENCE, not an announcer trying to rile up fans in the arena for chrissakes.

NBA refs are just as well known for their grudges against specific players and coaches as baseball umps. Mark Cuban has been fined for releasing pretty damning statistical data on the subject.

At some point there is an onus on the players/managers to act like adults. Being an umpire brings with it a certain expectation of some verbal abuse but there is a line both in terms of type and amount that should not be crossed. The players don't have license to just scream obscenities at the umpires.

Everyone agrees with this. The problem is that it should be the MLBs job to punish players and managers in an impartial manner because umpires have clearly proven they can't be trusted to.

I have no problems with players and managers being suspended for this type of conduct. The problem is with giving umpires nearly limitless discretion to give one team an advantage over another while the game is being played. Throughout history many umpires have freely abused their power to punish players and managers they disliked, with only the dumbest and most obvious suffering any (and usually minor) consequences.

It's people like you that make me think unions may actually be necessary after all.

It's unions like the MLB Umpires that make me sympathetic to union busting.

Really, you think the MLB should have no performance standards for umpires? They should just be given a well over six figure base salary plus your little bonus carrots for the best without the worst ever facing any threat of being fired?

How about the players and managers stop acting like huge babies? How about a little respect?

If you scream at an ump, you should be ejected. If you curse at an ump you should be suspended 5 games. If you make physical contact with an ump it should be 30. If the contact is intentional, 100 games. Put those rules in effect, and I'll favoring disciplining umps for saying stuff to players.

No disagreement as long as its the MLB enforcing the rules, and no in-game ejections for screaming, only physical contact. Getting away from ump bashing, there is literally almost no man on this planet who can honestly and impartially enforce rules when a participant is screaming at them. It's very dumb to give a guy hyped up on adrenaline triggered by fight or flight instincts he has no control over, such a powerful weapon as ejection without a safety on it.

If it causes a problem for maintaining in game order, then provide the safety mechanism. Have league officials on call to OK the ejection in game or on the phone (I hear this thing called MLB.com can be used from anywhere to review what's happening in any game real time and with rewind capabilities). Or if that's too onerous, make the entire umpire crew agree on the ejection so that the guys away from the play who should be far less agitated and far more clear thinking can serve as a brake on bad ejections.

Its shocking that a league ostensibly so concerned about the risks of gamblers inducing players to throw games leaves such a huge and easily coercable risk in giving umpires unlimited authority to determine game lineups.

They can make up almost any reason to eject someone. "Pujols your out! Trout your out of here too!" "What did they say!", "I can read lips! I know what they were thinking!"

The NFL is so much better at managing this. Rarely do referees get in confrontations, yet rarely are they allowed to eject players and coaches for anything other than clearly obvious transgressions. Somehow NFL officials are able to keep order without it.

When asked if Price said anything to him, Hallion said: “He might not have said anything, but he certainly gave enough body language to insinuate that he was [ticked] off.”

What a piece of garbage. Should be fined, suspended, whatever, but he's union so he'll skate.

Unions ruin everything. Things were so much better when employers were the only ones with any sort of leverage.

I think it's extreme to say Hallion should be fired. People make mistakes every day and an employer needs to allow for that. Having said that he should be disciplined and a short suspension is appropriate. Scott's point about the ump having a "heightened obligation to turn the other cheek" is absolutely spot on.

I just don't understand why umpires would want to seek this stuff out. Getting yelled at is not fun and as an umpire it's going to happen plenty. There is no reason to engage a player/manager/coach proactively. If you can't handle a dirty look and some negative body language you're in the wrong line of work.

Yup. My only quibble is, unless this is part of ongoing transgressions, whatever happened to giving someone 'a good talking to'? Is this really a suspendable offense if the ump is called into the commissioner's (or appropriate functionary's) office and is credibly contrite, acknowledges the misbehavior, and promises to do better?

It's people like you that make me think unions may actually be necessary after all.

It's unions like the MLB Umpires that make me sympathetic to union busting.

The worst element or aspect or person of an extreme thing is not much of a reason to rethink a position. Certainly incompetence at the margins is reason to reconsider the process of getting rid of that incompetence, but to say this is cause to rethink union busting strongly suggests a failure in the first place to have seriously thought about why unions are essential.

It's people like you that make me think unions may actually be necessary after all.

It's unions like the MLB Umpires that make me sympathetic to union busting.

The worst element or aspect or person of an extreme thing (the umpires union is already an outlier) is not much of a reason to rethink a position. Certainly incompetence at the margins is reason to reconsider the process of getting rid of that incompetence, but to say this is cause to rethink union busting strongly suggests a failure in the first place to have seriously thought about why unions are essential.