1) Having a healing class that can disable enemy healing classes is lame and makes for extremely bad gameplay, especially in the current environment where both heals and healing reductions are important

2) Currently Creep raids are mostly WL and Reaver stacked. The goal for the next update, apart from balancing DPS, healing, morale and migitations between sides should be to encourage the use of all classes equally (on both sides), not to give an extremely powerful buff to the already most used class (meaning the class that fills most spots in competitive raids)

3) I think a decent Defiler revamp, along with buffs to Wargs, BAs and Spiders and nerfs to certain Freep classes (and/or trait lines) will make the Moors experience much better - WLs are currently the last Creep class to.need a buff (apart from the already mentioned equalization of base stats)

I disagree completely. Creeps need more ways to tackle freep healing.

Most raids are not WL and Reaver stacked. Reavers are rarer now than they were, I find.

WLs need a revamp as much as, if not more, than any other creep class.

WLs need a revamp as much as, if not more, than any other creep class.

WLs and Defilers should be the front-runners for any potential revamps under consideration.

much of the other stuff you two are arguing over comes down to population trends on individual servers, unless you're both on the same server...

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I agree, however not on a healing class. Give Spiders or BAs another healing debuff (Creeps have Blight and Execute who are both strong, but preventable - a 30% inc healing debuff that is semi-spammable, like the Runekeeper Essence of Winter would fix that)

I'd like to see both sides having to choose between either tackling enemy healing or getting more healing themselves, not both at the same time. That's like having the cake and eating it too

Zitat von Squelcher

Most raids are not WL and Reaver stacked. Reavers are rarer now than they were, I find.

IMO Reavers are the main DPS class, as they have the Migitations to be actually healable, opposed to Wargs which are dead all the time without a bubble and benefit from Aura of Command

Zitat von Squelcher

WLs need a revamp as much as, if not more, than any other creep class.

As soon as people stop seeing them as healers and start seeing them as a tankier Captain with less support options, WLs are (together with Reavers) the class that comes closest to their Freep counterpart

Wargs are probably the weakest Creep class right now, with BAs being second. Their damage didn't scale well and they are impossible to heal against focus fire in RvR.

Defilers are just in an awful state right now, and the comparison with Freep healers makes them look even worse

Spiders really aren't that bad, but just fall behind miles when compared to LMs who not only have more CC and debuffs, but also more DPS, healing, anti-CC and anti-debuff options

Zitat von spelunker

WLs and Defilers should be the front-runners for any potential revamps under consideration.

much of the other stuff you two are arguing over comes down to population trends on individual servers, unless you're both on the same server...

Defilers and BAs in my opinion

Defilers need a revamp similiar to the ones Freep healers received, and BAs need better rotations, a more constant stream of damage, and an interesting mechanic (I'd like to see something with Critical Responses, maybe even a Crit Chain)

Apart from that, all Creeps need scaling (but Wargs even more)
Spiders need extra burst, a skill that gives them a defeat response and a skill that removes SoP:R and disables it for 10s on that target
Wargs should get short term migitation boost and a peel (small morale bubble and a 20s reflect that reflects a 30% miss chance debuff, each hit tiers it up, up to tier 5, duration 3s x tier, that's 15s max)
WLs should get extra support options (Aura of Command also affecting ranged damage, and an inc damage buff, like Oathbreaker)
And Reavers, maybe an auto-crit impale (if that isn't OP) on a 2-3min CD

After I got R12 a few days ago I started playing some of my other creep classes for the first time in ages, and I made some observations.

I notice that BAs got far more of a buff in RoR than WLs did. So many BA skills that I knew before RoI were too weak have been buffed, such as Snare (no longer requires a trait), Penetrating arrow (no longer has an induction), Set Trap (no longer requires a trait), Steadfast Barrage (no longer requires a trait, I think) and Keen Eye (no longer reduces movement speed). BAs got a well-deserved buff in RoR. Of course, it isn't enough, but it's definitely more than WLs got.

WL in fact has gotten some nerfs. Purge had its tail immunity dropped from 10 seconds to 3 seconds, and Fracture had its cooldown increased.

I was playing on my warg also. I took note of the fact that my rank 2 warg's maul skill has a more powerful DOT effect than my Rank 12 WL's rank 11 class trait Black Speech DOT. Some of the traits on WL are so obsolete it's just ridiculous The 'empowering' trait increases your stats by an amount I'd consider appropriate for a level 50 character. WL has not gotten the attention that it needs. Defiler and WL are the only creep classes to have not gotten a significant revamp in the last couple of years and it is really starting to show.

I'd also like to point out that the WL, the creepside tanking class, has the mitigations of a hunter.

After I got R12 a few days ago I started playing some of my other creep classes for the first time in ages, and I made some observations.

I notice that BAs got far more of a buff in RoR than WLs did. So many BA skills that I knew before RoI were too weak have been buffed, such as Snare (no longer requires a trait), Penetrating arrow (no longer has an induction), Set Trap (no longer requires a trait), Steadfast Barrage (no longer requires a trait, I think) and Keen Eye (no longer reduces movement speed). BAs got a well-deserved buff in RoR. Of course, it isn't enough, but it's definitely more than WLs got.

WL in fact has gotten some nerfs. Purge had its tail immunity dropped from 10 seconds to 3 seconds, and Fracture had its cooldown increased.

I was playing on my warg also. I took note of the fact that my rank 2 warg's maul skill has a more powerful DOT effect than my Rank 12 WL's rank 11 class trait Black Speech DOT. Some of the traits on WL are so obsolete it's just ridiculous The 'empowering' trait increases your stats by an amount I'd consider appropriate for a level 50 character. WL has not gotten the attention that it needs. Defiler and WL are the only creep classes to have not gotten a significant revamp in the last couple of years and it is really starting to show.

I'd also like to point out that the WL, the creepside tanking class, has the mitigations of a hunter.

A small correction; Fracture's cooldown was actually increased with Update 9, along with most other interrupts including the Warg's Pounce.

And I would disagree with your view of how WLs did out of RoR. Banner cooldowns went down and their affects increased. Aura of Command's effects were buffed. Quitters cooldown reduced. Melee skills made Shadow, Fracture made immediate. And of course Shield Bash, the single best skill added to Creepside with the expansion. All this stuff made high rank WLs debatedly overpowered in the Post Rohan-Pre U10 environment.

While I might agree that Blackarrows did somewhat better out of the xpac, I think you're downplaying just how well the Warleader did too.

P.S. You think the Warleader's Empowering is bad? Try the Spider's Regeneration. +120 ICMR is just pathetic, and takes the grand prize for worst creep class trait in the game.

I'd also like to point out that the WL, the creepside tanking class, has the mitigations of a hunter.

This isn't really a fair comparison. I can also show you DPS Champs with less defences than my Healing RK, of course a Hunter in full Migitation build and a glass-canon WL can be compareable, that's the advantage of being a tanking class. Without using a defensive build, you still have the defences of a defences of a full Migitation build non-heavy class

Also, Creep migitations are uncapped, so comparing unbuffed Migitations has no meaning for what's going on in real RvR action. My RK has more Mits (40/40) than my Defiler (30/28), however, with Armor Pot and raid buffs my Defiler comes out as the winner with ~medium armor migitation levels

Zitat von vr00mie

WL's should be at minimum 60% mitigations without any of the mitigation/armour traits.

Then Creep Migitations would have to capped like Freep Migitations, which would result in severe imbalances in either solo or raid action, as the fact that Creeps have much higher defences in raids compared to solo counter the massive damage increasing support skills Freeps have

This essentially means a complete redesign of Ettenmoors gameplay - it simply won't happen. The current system (Creeps having lower base Migitations than Freeps in solo play, but higher Migitations when raid buffed), while not perfect, would actually do it's job if there weren't other things screwing up the balance

Zitat von vr00mie

The only way to actually make a WL sturdy is to go full out on defensive traits, and then you do so horrible DPS/Healing that there's no point leaving Grams...

That's a decision most classes have to face and those that don't, are considered OP (and rightfully so)

A small correction; Fracture's cooldown was actually increased with Update 9, along with most other interrupts including the Warg's Pounce.

And I would disagree with your view of how WLs did out of RoR. Banner cooldowns went down and their affects increased. Aura of Command's effects were buffed. Quitters cooldown reduced. Melee skills made Shadow, Fracture made immediate. And of course Shield Bash, the single best skill added to Creepside with the expansion. All this stuff made high rank WLs debatedly overpowered in the Post Rohan-Pre U10 environment.

While I might agree that Blackarrows did somewhat better out of the xpac, I think you're downplaying just how well the Warleader did too.

P.S. You think the Warleader's Empowering is bad? Try the Spider's Regeneration. +120 ICMR is just pathetic, and takes the grand prize for worst creep class trait in the game.

The banners were scaled, as they needed to be. Aura of Command's effects were not buffed. They have remained the same for years. Quitters was buffed, yes. Melee skills being made to do Shadow damage yes, but BAs got all Fire damage. Fracture was made immediate as an interrupt, which we direly needed. I know about Shield Bash, but that doesn't involve the buffing of existing skills.

Give them that, ramp up the bleed of the r11 black speech trait and triple the ICPR in empowering and I don't see any major overhauls the class requires.

I don't think it should have an induction, one of the biggest complaints about WLs down through the years has been their induction dependency.

All creep classes need major overhauls when you compare them to freep classes, but if we got proper overhauls, the freeps would cry rivers of tears in the face of opponents who could actually approach them in terms of strength.

1) Having a healing class that can disable enemy healing classes is lame and makes for extremely bad gameplay, especially in the current environment where both heals and healing reductions are important

2) Currently Creep raids are mostly WL and Reaver stacked. The goal for the next update, apart from balancing DPS, healing, morale and migitations between sides should be to encourage the use of all classes equally (on both sides), not to give an extremely powerful buff to the already most used class (meaning the class that fills most spots in competitive raids)

3) I think a decent Defiler revamp, along with buffs to Wargs, BAs and Spiders and nerfs to certain Freep classes (and/or trait lines) will make the Moors experience much better - WLs are currently the last Creep class to.need a buff (apart from the already mentioned equalization of base stats)

You make a fair point, but all creep classes do need some tiny portion of healing debuff skill, not just for raid vs raid but in solo combat vs solo combat with your opponent. especially mini's are a tough class to spar etc. Its just the way i see the ettenmoors from my own viewpoint.