Q. Okay, I'm sorry. This is, it's customary to
give a little introduction as to who you are appearing here to
testify before the court, and so I want to ask you first of all,
do you live in Dover now, Jane?

A. Well, at that time that was back in the 30's,
there really weren't school buses to take us, take children to
the school, and I was from a large family, and if there would
have been buses my parents couldn't gave afforded that. For two
weeks I walked back and forth to school about two and a half
miles every day, and I would have loved to have, to graduate, but
it was impossible.

A. Well, sir, I attended many board meetings
before I ever applied for this position, and I observed what was
being said by Mr. Snook and by Mr. Langioni and all the other
board members as far as that.

Q. You said you observed what was said. Was there
a big issue in the community at this time related to the
schools?

A. The issue was the building project was in, was
looming large, and I had great concerns and questions about how
the old board was handling this project. And so I was, I had
concerns if they were handling it in a responsible manner.

Q. Well, was there anything about your personal
background that made you think you could add value to the
process?

Q. Okay. If you're looking at the board and their
attitude towards the building project, you mentioned Mr. Snook
and Mr. Langioni. Did you see Mrs. Callahan as agreeing with them
or differing with them on the building project?

A. Well, first after 9/11 I heard President Bush
speak on the television one evening and ask that our American
children would take one dollar out of their piggy bank and send
it to the Iraqi children, the children in Iraq. So I went to each
of our schools and approached our principals and asked if they
would make this a school project, in which they agreed, and quite
a bit of money was collected and sent to our president.

A. Well, I felt after 9/11 I felt that our nation
needed to get back to the basics. When I was a kid and went to
school we had, we said prayer every morning, and I felt it
started our day off very nicely. But I realized in this day and
age prayer would be unlawful, would be against the law to be, to
be said in the schools today, but I had heard that a moment of
silence would be allowed. So I encouraged that.

Q. Okay. All right, let's look at the period from
when you first joined the board up until January of 2004. Do you
recall any discussion of the biology text or biology curriculum
during that period from when you first joined the board up until
2004?

A. I recall Ms. Spahr wanted a new biology book.
They were not satisfied with the book they had. She wanted a new
one. But at that time we, the book was, we were going to buy this
book for the school, we found out that there was a new edition, a
later edition coming out. So I think that our approval was put on
hold at that time.

Q. Okay. How about Charlotte Buckingham. She's
been mentioned here during these proceedings as speaking at a
board meeting. Do you remember Charlotte Buckingham speaking?

A. Yes, I became friends with Charlotte back when
I was trying to, when I was in the process of getting a moment of
silence into our schools. She was a secretary at one of the
churches, and that's where I first met her.

Q. You say you didn't want religion taught in the
public schools. How about creationism?

A. Well, as Ms. Bubb's reporting was about the
same as what Joe's was, so I didn't want any of the reporters
close to me. In fact, I told Joe to stay away from me, don't get
near me, you don't know how to tell the truth. You only know how
the tell the untruth.

Q. Let me ask you this. This is the July 2004
period, were there any developments in your personal life that
would affect your participation on the Dover area school district
school board?

A. I had decided to move to Florida, and I bought
my home July 21st in Florida. And I lived in Florida until August
the 2nd -- or August the 11th, pardon me, and I came home to
Pennsylvania to avoid the Hurricane Charlie.

A. When I returned to Dover October the 2nd I
called my sister-in-law to tell her I was home and to chat with
her, and she said to me there's a big controversy about Dover, a
book called Pandas and People, and she doesn't know what it's all
about, but the paper has been stating that Dover schools are
going to be teaching creationism.

Q. Well, let me ask you, prior to that time had
you ever heard of the text Of Pandas?

A. Because again the purpose for me voting for a
change is because I felt that there are to be more than one
theory that these students should be made aware of. There are so
many theories out there, but the student does not have to be
taught but that the student be made aware, and I think it makes
for a better education.

A. Sir, I've known Alan Bonsell since he was a
child, and his parents, and one evening Allen Bonsell had called
me, not concerning the school board, about something, but we did
get into the conversation of the school board, and up until that
time when the Browns approached me I could not give them an
answer. I just did not. I attended all those board meetings, but
I could not give them an answer, but it was like a light bulb
went off in my head and I said to Alan yes, I'm going to apply,
Alan.

Q. Well, let me be clear about my question. My
question was only isn't it your understanding that Mr. Buckingham
and Mr. Bonsell and Heather Geesey, who was also on the school
board, shared your view that something valuable was lost when
prayer was taken out of the school?

Q. I think you expressed yourself very vigorously
about your views of Mr. Maldonado, but let me ask you a few
questions about your approach to learning what's happening at the
school. Isn't it true that when you got on the school board you
stopped taking the local paper?

A. After a few weeks of being on the school board
I did stop getting the paper.

A. No, that's not true either, sir. The issue was
that the biology book that Ms. Spahr wanted, first Mr. Bonsell
wanted to do some research and check to see how much difference
it was in the new biology book compared to the book that they had
already had.

Q. Now, let me get a couple of things straight
with you if I could. You were not on the curriculum committee,
were you?

Q. Now, you said in a candid answer to Mr.
Gillen's question that the June meetings kind of blurred together
in your mind, but I gather you remember a couple of things. You
remember that Bert Spahr made a statement about the need for new
biology books, right?

A. Well, as far as education and wanting the new
biology book, if there was a great change in that biology book
then I felt that we should get the book. But up until that point
I wanted to wait and see what the new edition was like and what
was new.

Q. Who used the phrase intelligent design, Mrs.
Cleaver, do you recall?

A. When I first heard about this with the book Of
Pandas, when I came back in October I heard about this
intelligent design mentioned, I think that was in July the last
meeting. But I didn't know anything about intelligent design at
that point.

Q. I want to be clear about where at that point
was. Let's take it step by step. Isn't it true that in June you
didn't know anything about intelligent design?

Q. I think you said that you came back on October
2nd and your sister told you there was a controversy, or did I
get that wrong?

A. I came back October the 2nd, and it was a day
after whenever I called my sister-in-law to say hello and tell
her I was home, and in the course of our conversation she said
there's quite a big controversy in Dover about the book called
Pandas and People, whatever that's about, and that Dover is going
to be teaching creationism.

Q. What action if you recall was to be taken by
the board on the book of Pandas and People on October 4th? Do you
recall anything about that?

A. Well, as far as the action being taken the
teachers would not, were told that they were not going to teach
Pandas, anything out of the book Of Pandas and People, that the
book was only to be there that the students can use as a
reference, but the teachers would not be teaching.

Q. Isn't it true, Mrs. Cleaver, that the subject
of the curriculum change and the use of the book Of Pandas and
People didn't come up on October 4th, but came up on the October
18th meeting agenda?

A. There was other people that spoke, but I don't
recall what they said.

Q. Let me say my question again in a slightly
different way. Isn't it true that all of the people that spoke at
the October 18th meeting who had some scientific background who
were teachers at the high school spoke against the changed in the
curriculum and using Of Pandas and People?

Q. At the October 18th meeting isn't it true that
no board member explained or expressed the reason why or how the
change in the curriculum would improve education at the Dover
High School, isn't that true?

Q. Isn't it true that at the October 18th meeting
no one from the board explained or expressed how the change in
curriculum would improve education at the Dover High School,
isn't that true? It was the series of folks, wasn't it, Mrs.
Cleaver?

Q. But it's only evolution that in your mind
requires that other theories be made available. Isn't that
true?

A. I just feel that there's other theories out
there that, we have the greatest science in the word right here
in our nation, and that our students should be made aware of some
of these theories.

Q. But the other theories that you're referring to
have to do with the same subject matter as evolution, not all the
other scientific theories that are out there, isn't that
right?

A. Well, sir, as far as other theories, I think
those are the only theories that are available, the only theory
available to our students is evolution. So that's why I say other
theories are out there.

Q. Just two more quick questions. When you voted
for the curriculum on October the 18th --

Q. Sure. Jane, we talked about this yesterday and
I don't want to belabor the point. I know it's hard for you to
try to date things specifically, but I want to ask you this
question just by way of trying to mark when you first heard of
intelligent design. Do you remember Charlotte Buckingham speaking
at a board meeting?

A. Well, I ran for a number of reasons. One is for
fiscal responsibility. There was a big fight going on at the time
with the building project, and also my goal is to give back to
the community and try to make Dover the best school in the
county.

Q. Let's look at the building project. When you
ran, what were you seeking to improve with respect to the
district's approach to the building project? What did you see the
problems were?

A. One of the problems with the building project
was that the current board was trying to push through as the
people in Dover liked to call it, a Taj Mahal version of the high
school, which were they were talking about spending thirty, forty
million dollars on a high school building project, which a lot of
us in the community felt was ridiculous being in the kind of tax
revenue situation that we have in Dover.

A. Well, we have like the second lowest I believe
tax revenue of any school district in the county, and I wanted to
be sure and I think most people wanted to be sure that every
dollar that we spend actually goes, you know, to the kids'
education and not to some big building.

Q. When you ran for school board was there a
religious dimension to your platform or campaign?

A. We ran on taking of, of stopping the building
project and going back and redesigning it and making sure it was
educationally sound for the kids, as well as being affordable for
the taxpayer, and also to make sure that the kids, our students
had what they needed as far as books and technology, and like I
said before to try to improve the educational standards in the
public school of Dover.

Q. How about Angie Yeungling, you mentioned her.
Why did you run with Angie Yeungling?

A. Well, Angie Yeungling would come to board
meetings along with at the board meetings I would and was an
outspoken critic of the board with the building project and was
someone also that had the same leanings I did, that wanted a
better education for our kids but wanted to also make sure that
the tax money was spent properly.

A. Casey Brown was also a minority member on the
board at the time and basically was like Sheila Harkins, was
basically railing against the building project, and also along
the same line, I mean, everybody had this sort of same mindset
when it came to that, on what we ran on.

Q. Did you discuss any religious agenda with Casey
Brown when you decided to run with her?

Q. You've mentioned the building project, and
several witnesses have, and I'd like to get a sense here for the
record of the impact that that project has had on the Dover
community. How would you describe that impact?

Q. Well, has it been something that brought the
community together, divided it?

A. Well, there was a lot of meetings where there
was hundreds of people at, and they were all in the same
agreement as I was, and I believe after that, I mean the
community came together in the fact that they voted us into
office, we did what we said we were going to do and to revamp
that. I mean, I believe there's still probably, there's still I
believe some grudges that are with people today.

Q. Well, let's look at this period before you come
to the board. Did you personally do anything designed to mobilize
community sentiment with respect to the building project?

A. Did we do anything? One thing I remember doing
that there was a petition that was signed that went around the
Dover area to sign to tell the board to stop what they're doing
and go back and look and see what the students actually needed
and not what somebody wanted, and I believe there was almost
close to 1,800 signatures from the Dover community, which was
that was a lot of signatures that came together, and was
presented to the board.

A. I believe I presented the petitions to the
board at a board meeting. This is before I was on the board, and
I believe it was Lonnie Langioni who basically took the petitions
up, I remember standing up, turning around, and throwing the
petitions basically on the floor.

Q. Well, who was on the board at this time when
you presented the petitions?

A. Well, the plaintiff Barrie Callahan was on the
board, Lonnie Langioni, Larry Snook, Mr. Murphy, and there was
some others, too.

Q. Did you have, did the election you've
referenced in November of 2001 have an impact on the build
project?

A. Yes, it did. I mean, the building project was
stopped after that point. One of the things going back to the
petitions and everything is that I remember after the primary,
when we won the primary we asked the board to stop it because we
were going to stop the building project, but I remember that the
group of, Barrie Callahan and them that kept pushing this forward
trying to push, ram it through before we were elected in the
fall, and spent, oh my, I think they wasted half a million
dollars or more, which we then stopped, we went back starting in
2002 and revamped the whole building project.

Q. Did the election results you mentioned have an
impact on the ability of the individuals you mentioned, Snook,
Langioni, Mrs. Callahan, to influence the board's actions?

A. Well, the thing was before the election they
were part of the majority that was trying to push this through
and was basically a 6-3 board at the time. When the election took
place and I took office in `01, December of `01, it changed the
dynamics of it from a 6-3 board in favor of the old more
expensive project to a 6-3 board in going back to relook at the
project.

Q. Did the division between board members you have
described along the lines relating to the build project affect
your ability to work with Mr. Snook, Mr. Langioni, and Mrs.
Callahan? How was your relationship with Larry Snook after you
came on the board?

A. Well, I mean relationships were strained
somewhat. I mean, I tried to work with the people as best as I
could, but like I said, I think there were some hard feelings
from those three.

A. Well, they were supposed to be I believe on for
two more years, but some point at some point I believe in the
spring of, somewhere around the spring of 2002 I believe Lonnie
Langioni and Larry Snook came into the meeting, basically
criticized the board, said, "We quit, we resign," and walked out
of the meeting.

Q. Now, is the resignation of Mr. Snook and Mr.
Langioni when Jane Cleaver and Bill Buckingham were
appointed?

A. Yes. At the time when we have resignations like
that the state tells the board that they have a certain period of
time where they need to advertise for people who might want to
come on the board. Then we have a meeting where we interview
different people, and then we as a board, as always the board
decides together, we elect people to fill those positions.

Q. Well, let's look at them one by one, starting
with Mr. Buckingham. Did you have a personal friendship with Mr.
Buckingham when he applied to fill the vacancy on the board?

A. Well, in interviewing him basically he was
saying that he had the same kind of fiscal responsibility, that
that's what he was looking at. He wanted to make the school
district better. You know, he was a police officer. I mean, it
was -- I thought he would be a good fit.

Q. Did you know anything about Mr. Buckingham's
religious convictions when you put him on the board?

Q. Let's look at Jane cleaver. I mean, she's
mentioned that you knew her. Did you have a personal friendship
with her at the time?

A. I don't know if it was a personal friendship. I
knew Jane cleaver ever since I was a little boy. She's lived in
Dover for fifty or sixty years. She had a five and ten cent store
on Main Street in Dover, and I didn't really have a per se
friendship with her, but everybody, I think anybody that lived in
Dover any period of time knew Jane. She was like one of the
pillars of the community.

A. I thought she would be an outstanding addition
to the board. She knew Dover inside out. She knew the people, she
had a business, she had the, she worked with people, with
customers, with employees, had to run budgets, had to keep, I
mean, everything that would be perfect to be on a board.

Q. Let's look at the building committee as seen
through your eyes and its impact on the relationships with the
faculty or staff at Dover. Do you think that the new board's
attitude towards the building project had an affect on the
relationships between the board and the teachers?

A. Well, I think somewhat as far as the high
school teachers go because, you know, they were looking forward
to this and building up to this, and then we stopped the project
and revamped it and it took longer, and I think there might have
been some teachers that had hard feelings about that.

Q. How about the teachers union? Did you feel like
the building project affected relationships between the board and
the union?

A. Well, the building project itself or other,
just the building project itself? There probably was some things
there that would, again going back with the teachers, with the
union, there could be some hard feelings there.

Q. Was there any other issue during this period
when you were first coming on the board and thereafter that
affects the relationship between the board and the union?

Q. Now, some documents relating to board retreats
in 2002 and 2003 have been produced by the school district and
the subject of much discussion, so let's talk about those
documents. As you sit here today do you recall anything
specifically about the board retreats in 2002 and 2003?

A. Specifics? Not really anything in those board
retreats, I don't really remember specifics of any of the board
retreats I've been at.

Q. As you sit here today can you recall generally
what happened at either retreat?

A. Well, it's just sort of a get-together. It's an
informal thing where the administrators and board members get
together, you talk, you have dinners together. It's just more of
a team building thing than anything.

MR. GILLEN: Your Honor, this is a good point for
me to get together the binders that this witness is going to need
as I go forward. Might I suggest we take a break now?

THE COURT: Yes. It's a little early, but we'll let
you do that. Why don't we take our twenty-minute break, and we'll
return and pick up the direct examination. We'll be in recess
until that point.