The7thGuest wrote:Well, I haven't really heard any evidence of religion screwing up the world?

Then you need a serious reality check. There are so many things wrong with religion's grip on the world that I couldn't begin to explain, but take this example: Brainwashing your children. Indoctrinating them to a cause that makes no sense, forcing them to treat as fact conflicting views and self-contradiction, smothering creative and intelligent reasoning, punishing natural desires, and crushing any iota of free will or autonomy. How's that for f*cked up?

The7thGuest wrote:I've heard a lot of how people abuse religion, but that should be a problem with people, not religion.

Again, I can't express just how inherently evil the idea of religion is. It is just as easy, and probably a lot easier, to justify violence and hatred from the "holy scriptures" than peace and love. If you can't see that then you've obviously read very little of the Bible. If you take over someone's mind, give them a cause to blindly serve and obey, and give them a set of rules so tight they must have trouble breathing without "sinning", you're going to seriously mess that person up.

The7thGuest wrote:If any scripture ever stated that we should go to war and shout "God wills it" I missed it?

Then try actually reading the Bible. You could justify virtually any horrendous act by using it. Anyway, in case you don't believe me, here are some examples:

Exodus 15:3 wrote:The Lord is a man of war.

Deuteronomy 2:33-34 wrote:And the Lord our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the children, of every city, we left none to remain.

Matthew 10:34 wrote:Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 22:36 wrote:He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Joshua 10:40 wrote:So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded.

The7thGuest wrote:I agree that people have abused it, changed it and generally made a pretty good mess of it, but does that really mean the problem lies with religion? All women are equipped to be prostitutes, should we lock up all women?

No, but about it this way: Women's "equipment" is there for the purpose of sex. That has a potential to be abused. The Bible is a book that teaches ignorance, lies, and hatred as truth and good and enlightenment. You could say that likewise, the Bible is designed for a legitimate purpose (making people's lives better maybe?) but then that's only because you haven't read it.

When you write a book that advocates discrimination, oppression, and willing blind ignorance and lifelong thralldom, you're asking for trouble.

1. "Cain killed his brother Abel"2. "Jesus said unto them: Go out and do the same"

I'm paraphrasing but you get the point, you should also understand the major difference between the old and new testament, there's a lot of history that you need to understand before making claims about the old testament, well, in this modern day and age.

My point here is that every single thing people have against religion is not actually due to the religion, but a wicked twisted form of it. If Christianity was acted out as intended, these problems would not exist?

The7thGuest wrote:My point here is that every single thing people have against religion is not actually due to the religion, but a wicked twisted form of it. If Christianity was acted out as intended, these problems would not exist?

Of course they would! They'd be worse!

Christianity is all about blind obedience, no matter what flowery language you use to describe it. Christianity is based on the idea that the Bible contains the truth of the universe, and in order to be Christian, you must recognise the Bible as "Holy" and totally infallible. The only twisted thing about the interpretation of religion is when people pick and choose bits to suit them. Which is exactly what you're doing if you pretend the Old Testament isn't part of the Bible's "absolute truth".

Your assuming that I actually give a crap about a book, as if it was faxed to earth by God and remained untouched.

The bible is a book, it's amazingly accurate when it comes to history, which tells me that at least some truths are bestowed in it, but I would not blindly do something against my own reason simply because a book tells me that's the way to do it.

I hate religious zealots probably more than you do, I think we need to take a step back and get each other's references and definitions, I have a funny feeling we're talking past each other and we won't reach an actual conclusion unless we understand where the other person is coming from?

The7thGueast est wrote:Your assuming that I actually give a crap about a book, as if it was faxed to earth by God and remained untouched.

I am, because as far as I know, in order to be a Christian, you must at believe in the Bible.

The7thGueast est wrote:The bible is a book, it's amazingly accurate when it comes to history, which tells me that at least some truths are bestowed in it, but I would not blindly do something against my own reason simply because a book tells me that's the way to do it.

That's precisely the kind of thinking that I hate to see smothered by "faith".

The7thGueast est wrote:I hate religious zealots probably more than you do, I think we need to take a step back and get each other's references and definitions, I have a funny feeling we're talking past each other and we won't reach an actual conclusion unless we understand where the other person is coming from?

It'd be pretty impressive if you hated them more than me, but I'm glad you agree.

I think you're right, this is going nowhere. But I need to know something. I've already asked in the other thread, so we'll continue there.

Atheism/Agnosticism can be clearly defined as not believing in anything. Let us look at this from a philosophical perspective. Has there been any culture in the world that has embraced Atheism since the early ages? Religion can be used for control. However, has the coming of religion and teaching of morals really helped in the advancement of our society? Religion has caused the turning of heads, the creation of factions and friction to happen.

Why is religion even here? It has created friction, but it was technically designated to unify and provide peace and morals. To me, authority is an illusion, so is blind faith, or should i put it in a more ulterior way, blind faith is causing extremists.

IncandescentLight wrote:Atheism/Agnosticism can be clearly defined as not believing in anything.

That's a bit over-simplified for me. An atheist rejects fantastical ideas about a "higher power" that have no evidence. An agnostic is just a weaker-minded atheist, IMHO.

IncandescentLight wrote:Let us look at this from a philosophical perspective. Has there been any culture in the world that has embraced Atheism since the early ages? Religion can be used for control. However, has the coming of religion and teaching of morals really helped in the advancement of our society? Religion has caused the turning of heads, the creation of factions and friction to happen. Why is religion even here?

I could talk all day about that, but mostly I'd say it's because people are unwilling to let go of ideas which are so central to who they are: People who have been indoctrinated from birth are often incapable of accepting any ideas other than those they've been told. This could be a variety of reasons, probably they use their faith (whether they realise it or not) as an emotional crutch. To be brutally honest, most people in the world really do live shitty lives, and the desperate hope of something better once it's over can help to motivate people. This is the reason that in the past nearly everyone was religious, and only comparatively recently has atheism started to develop; only now is it so easy to deal with the woes of life, so people no longer need that crutch as much. Also, people are generally more intelligent and enlightened than ever, so no longer need stories to explain things to them.

IncandescentLight wrote:It has created friction, but it was technically designated to unify and provide peace and morals.

What do you mean, "designated"? No one can really know what the motivation behind the form of religion was, but it didn't happen overnight. It seems that early religion started as a means of explaining things people didn't understand, starting with stories and myths, then eventually a literal interpretation of fictional characters, leading to direct worship, ceremony and ritual.

IncandescentLight wrote:To me, authority is an illusion

Authority is just as much an illusion as love or hate or respect or fear. It's still something powerful, but only in your head.

IncandescentLight wrote:so is blind faith

Not really sure what you mean by "Blind faith is an illusion". To me, it's the ultimate breakdown of autonomy, intelligent thought, and self-identity. But certainly not an illusion, except to the person experiencing it.

IncandescentLight wrote:or should i put it in a more ulterior way, blind faith is causing extremists.

Of course it is. When you take away someone's capacity to think logically, their self-respect, and their freedom, they become a tool rather than a person. Religious fanatics are tools, with just a little person left.

If someone's too obsessed and brainwashed by religion to think any other way, then they are unable or unwilling to help themselves. Just like someone mentally ill, who might think they are sane; a third party is required to break the illusion and cure the individual.

Besides, are you saying I have no right to try and change anyone's thinking? Really? Because that's exactly what religion does. In fact, it strikes me as fundamentally wrong not to try and help someone thoroughly religious. If they are filled with confusion and fear and hate because of religion, whether they choose to recognize it or not, and tell their children "Kill the infidel, torture the Jew, destroy the West", then you can't seriously think they have some kind of right to do that.

Biased much?There are fanatics, I actually dislike fanatics as well, but not everyone is. The reason most people follow religion is not that they believe that they will burn in hell but because they believe in some parts of that religions doctrine. And many people are not brainwashed but just do not care to officially convert to agnosticism or their preferred religion. And religion does not instill hate, fear or confusion in people, OR tell them to kill people, it is other people who try to warp the religion to support their goals and tell others that follow them, go kill any non-___. Further more I know people who don't believe in hell but believe in God, yet they still follow many other beliefs of their religion. What do they fear?

And where do those beliefs come from? Religion. Besides, they might think that they're conforming to religion because it's their choice, they genuinely want to be a better person, they see real truth in scripture, yadda yadda yadda, but the thing that motivates nearly any religious person is fear. Fear of being wrong about the world, fear of new ideas, fear of being alone in the universe, fear of spending an eternity in perpetual torment and agony, often just because they've thought about doing something "sinful".

Fear of new ideas? The Muslim people created numerous advancements and new theories about the world during the middle ages. And Isaac Newton was a devote Christian who believe that the new ideas he formed were from God. Fear of being alone? If they want they could join a club to interact with people and feel more social and less alone.Fear of eternal torment for sinning? How many people do you know who are ever afraid of sinning? Of my friends none would say their afraid of sinning or that they need to repent after sinning. I sin and I do not plan to stop or to repent in any way anytime soon.

Are you implying that you comprehend thousands of years while no one else does? It's a long time, fine. Anyway, can you explain some of those "problems"? Anything worse than stirring up racism, homophobia, sexism and hatred? Maybe Atheists would start wars with fairytales and myth for justification in killing people? Maybe they'd claim special treatment because they have ridiculous delusions. There are thousands of ways in which religion has well and truly f*cked up nearly the entire world. You can't possibly be serious that removing religion would create more than it fixed?

I'm not implying that i can comprehend thousands of years while no one else does. i was merely saying that if you think that you can overturn thousands of years of religion, then clearly you are wrong and don't comprehend it yourself. Also, the problems aren't from religion itself, as mentioned in another reply, but instead they are caused by people twisting the holy scripture of the religion. the same thing would happen if we all converted to atheism, where people would change the ideas of the religion and bring about the same exact problems, just for a different cause. the extra problems that would be created are the uproars, revolts, rebellions, and sudden change in life if we suddenly forced everyone to convert. there would be a lot more suicides, as well, if everyone started thinking that there was no reason for their life, and more hatred if there was nothing for people to do good things for. does this adequately describe the "problems" i mentioned earlier? if it does, then do me a favor and explain how atheism would suddenly cure racism, homophobia, sexism and hatred, because honestly i do not see how that would happen.

True, lots of people are just too utterly and completely brainwashed as blind slaves to religion to change at all; they simply wouldn't function. But generally, people are more enlightened and intelligent now than they've ever been, and most of the time, with intelligence comes a rejection of fantasy as truth.

"as blind as slaves"? In what way were slaves blind? They always tried to escape the horrific conditions of slavery, they were never content and always tried to change their lot in life. It isn't that they are brainwashed it is just that they actually believe in a higher power and feel that if there isn't one that there is no point in living. Furthermore, intelligence has very little influence upon religious beliefs as many scientists believe in God,they simply reconcile their beliefs by believing things such as God created the universe and subtly nudged everything to cause planet formation, evolution, etc. Also, the advancements in technology, due to greater intellect, have lead to a increase of active cytologists, people who study and attempt to find creatures like the Loch Ness monsterho. finally, the people who are :intelligent" are only intelligent due to technology, it has nothing to do with religion. the people who follow religion generally are less ignorant of wordly matters, becuase they realize their impoertance, unlike people like you, who are ignorent of actual facts, and say things before they research and figure out the whole story, but just say things theyve heard other people claim.

claimed. I'd bet everything I've ever had or ever will that not a single person in the history of humanity has truly witnessed a "miracle from God". That is utter bullsh*t, and just one of the lies that religion uses to twist people minds. It actually sickens me that people buy that stuff.

if you actually paid attention sometimes, you'd realize that good things happen all the time that are so improbable that they must be miracles, and i personally have experienced miracles as have EVERYONE, even though people like you do not realize it because you discount the miracles as lucky occurrences, such as not getting run over by a car, even though they did not notice you, just out of chance that he turned a little to the right when he came out (which, i assure you, has happened to you, but you just never put any thought into it, but then again, you never do think).

Although I probably will never live to see it, I can only hope that some day religion will finally die, and people will wake up and stop being so f*cking stupid.

maybe the reason you wont live to see the day religion dies is because religion is not stupid, and people are not being "f*cking stupid", you are.

also your a d*ckhead for saying this about someone who was supporting you

IncandescentLight wrote:Atheism/Agnosticism can be clearly defined as not believing in anything.

That's a bit over-simplified for me. An atheist rejects fantastical ideas about a "higher power" that have no evidence. An agnostic is just a weaker-minded atheist, IMHO.

IncandescentLight wrote:Let us look at this from a philosophical perspective. Has there been any culture in the world that has embraced Atheism since the early ages? Religion can be used for control. However, has the coming of religion and teaching of morals really helped in the advancement of our society? Religion has caused the turning of heads, the creation of factions and friction to happen. Why is religion even here?

I could talk all day about that, but mostly I'd say it's because people are unwilling to let go of ideas which are so central to who they are: People who have been indoctrinated from birth are often incapable of accepting any ideas other than those they've been told. This could be a variety of reasons, probably they use their faith (whether they realise it or not) as an emotional crutch. To be brutally honest, most people in the world really do live shitty lives, and the desperate hope of something better once it's over can help to motivate people. This is the reason that in the past nearly everyone was religious, and only comparatively recently has atheism started to develop; only now is it so easy to deal with the woes of life, so people no longer need that crutch as much. Also, people are generally more intelligent and enlightened than ever, so no longer need stories to explain things to them.

IncandescentLight wrote:It has created friction, but it was technically designated to unify and provide peace and morals.

What do you mean, "designated"? No one can really know what the motivation behind the form of religion was, but it didn't happen overnight. It seems that early religion started as a means of explaining things people didn't understand, starting with stories and myths, then eventually a literal interpretation of fictional characters, leading to direct worship, ceremony and ritual.

IncandescentLight wrote:To me, authority is an illusion

Authority is just as much an illusion as love or hate or respect or fear. It's still something powerful, but only in your head.

IncandescentLight wrote:so is blind faith

Not really sure what you mean by "Blind faith is an illusion". To me, it's the ultimate breakdown of autonomy, intelligent thought, and self-identity. But certainly not an illusion, except to the person experiencing it.

IncandescentLight wrote:or should i put it in a more ulterior way, blind faith is causing extremists.

Of course it is. When you take away someone's capacity to think logically, their self-respect, and their freedom, they become a tool rather than a person. Religious fanatics are tools, with just a little person left.

I won't dignify such a blatant flame with a long answer. I've answered all of the actual "points" you made, if you bother to read what I've written properly. Now if you can give me a politer, better structured, argument, then I'll respond.

I'm interested in debating, not trading insults, although I admit my last post may have been a bit... sharp.

-- Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:08 am --

Come to think of it, aren't you the guy who made a topic proposing we slaughter babies to have more food, then didn't bother responding to any of the replies?