Cute there CP.But Jesus knew who He was; so much that one hot chick could not do it, neither could a hundred or a thousand.Satan paraded before Him the same tempts that befell the first Adam.But THIS time, the result is much different.

I agree. That is my point. Jesus did not walk through a church service type of world where all he would hear was 'praise the Lord' talk. He walked where He was going to hear and see things to tempt any real person. Jesus was tempted to by-pass the cross IMO yet He overcame even that with a 'Not My will but yours be done' attitude.

RIGHT! He was tempted with suffering death, and he overcame the world.

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My point is, being tempted is not sin, giving in to temptation is a sin. Am I missing something here? Doesn't everyone agree with this? Being tempted does not mean we are weak in any way, giving in to it does. Jesus was not weak in any area.

Being tempted of the devil to sin is not a sin. However the desire to sin is against God's law. Jesus, being the visible image of the invisible God did not have sin to produce the same lusts in us.

I agree that by being tempted of the devil is not a sin. However the proposition on this thread is that the devil is within us, and by default was also in Christ. They say that the devil is the carnal mind, and that Christ had a carnal mind. That is my disagreement. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING in the Bible says that Christ's MIND was carnal, even if his flesh was. ALL scriptural signs point to Him being Spiritually minded.

With the stone bread, Jesus rejected the temptation and the temptor thus no sin evolved even though He was tempted just like us.

I agree with you.

I agree that Jesus was presented with proposition to sin. And I also agree that he did not feel the improper desire, which is lawlessness to God of itself. The proposition was rejected outright. That is why Jesus was not tempted of his own lusts, because he didn't have any. His mind was above his body.

and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, 15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.jms1.14

Jesus not wanting to go to the cross………….His own desire yet this desire never conceived thus no sin.

Desiring not to die, and lusting after a woman are two different things. One is expressly unlawful, and the other is not. Jesus was in all points tempted like us, apart from sin, just as the Bible says.

CP, do you think Jesus's mind was the Devil, or that the Devil was in Christ?

Look at the title of this thread: You ARE Satan. Look at the reasoning: the carnal mind is Satan, and Christ had a carnal mind. What do we conclude? Jesus Christ is Satan?

I agree that by being tempted of the devil is not a sin. However the proposition on this thread is that the devil is within us, and by default was also in Christ. They say that the devil is the carnal mind, and that Christ had a carnal mind. That is my disagreement. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING in the Bible says that Christ's MIND was carnal, even if his flesh was. ALL scriptural signs point to Him being Spiritually minded.

Who is saying Christ has a carnal mind? I think He had a mind like any man, don't you? A carnal mind IMO is a corrupted mind wouldn't you agree? To get a carnal mind one would have to give in to Satan who I believe is the personification of the carnal mind.

Satan was obviously present in the mind of Jesus in the sense Jesus received anti God thoughts like entertaining the thought of not going to the cross BUT Jesus always perfectly resisted 'him' thus temptation yet no sin.

Are you saying you are disagreeing that the devil is the carnal mind or that Jesus had a carnal mind?

Desiring not to die, and lusting after a woman are two different things. One is expressly unlawful, and the other is not. Jesus was in all points tempted like us, apart from sin, just as the Bible says.

CP, do you think Jesus's mind was the Devil, or that the Devil was in Christ?

Look at the title of this thread: You ARE Satan. Look at the reasoning: the carnal mind is Satan, and Christ had a carnal mind. What do we conclude? Jesus Christ is Satan?

I see the Devil personified in the Bible yet there really is never a person called the Devil except people like Peter but I think you and I agree that Peter was not the Devil as so many think of the Devil. I see the Devil as an essence that, when obeyed, becomes part of a persons essence. Jesus never obeyed the 'Devil'.

CP, somebody's nature is the innate or essential qualities that make up a person. We must look at the scripture and decide whether we believe Christ had a carnal nature, or a Spiritual nature, and whether or not Christ's carnal nature was ABLE to struggle with a Spiritual nature. All these things occur in our minds. If Christ had a carnal nature, it had to be in his mind, because if a sinful desire enters the mind, that reveals the mind to be carnal and not Spiritual.

Notice that James does not say that Lust concieved brings forth sin IN OUR MEMBERS (limbs, body parts). Paul is very clear that the sin in our members is that which is at war with our minds, PRODUCING lust.

-- This actually makes me giggle a bit... It is the FLESHLY "members" which makes suggestion to the MIND "member", bro... My tummy is growling... suggesting to me (my mind) that it is TIME to FEED it...

by Sin in the members, producing lust, concieved produces sin. Lust in our minds SHOWS that we are already sold under sin before we knew it.

YOUR "NATURAL MIND" is a MEMBER of YOU... Not just the "meat parts"... The NATURAL HEART of man is DESPARATELY Wicked -- Jer 17:9 --

Where you might be missing the point, is that CHRIST had BOTH the mind of YHVH, for the fullness of DIVINITY dwelt IN Him, and also He confessed to having a "WILL" of His own -- Luke 22:42 -- which, in this verse notes as TWO SEPARATE entities (His "will" and GOD's "WILL") -- Not to mention He CONFESSED to being BOTH the SON of MAN (with the mind of man - which Could be tempted) and SON of GOD (with the mind of GOD - which COULD NOT be tempted)

I believe you are creating your own vision of this to accomodate your belief bro... JESUS had HUMAN FLESH... you cannot sidestep this FACT... And it is YOUR ARGUEMENT that SIN is IN the members of human flesh...

When one is converted to CHRIST... one STILL remains either submitted or unsubmitted, for TWO dwell in each ONE... I live in me, and CHRIST lives in me (not just in my flesh)... and it is my REASONABLE service to sacrifice "MY WILL" in favor of the WILL of YHVH -- Rom 12:1 -- which is what CHRIST did, and which is what we must do in following Him.

Romans 720 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is speaking of a BELIEVER (Paul) who is NOW SUBMITTED to CHRIST, and who is STILL at WAR with that which he has ALWAYS been at war... The only thing that has changed is WHICH VOICE he is listening to... CHRIST (inward man) and the SPIRITUAL "WILL" of the FATHER, ...as opposed to formerly -- The VOICE of His MEMBERS and HIS NATURAL "WILL"...

I think you misunderstand this whole scenario bro... The "I" that Paul is, is no longer the NATURAL man and "will", rather the "I" that Paul now is, is the SPIRITUAL man, which is CHRIST and the "WILL" of YHVH...

If sin persists... it is the NATURAL portion of himself, which yet exists... and IS the "DOER" of the SIN... and CONFESSION of that SIN is due OF HIM -- 1 John 1:8-9

Let's see... If Peter & Paul are arguing, and Paul picks up a gun and shoots Peter... Who (sinfully) killed Peter, Seth? ...if you can't figure it out, I'll tell you -- PAUL killed Peter! NOT his "members"...

You fail to read the whole story bro... for PAUL at the end of this dissertation, notes:

Rom 7:24 -- O wretched man, that ...I---> AM... How could He say this? He just said the SIN was no longer being DONE by Him?

I'll tell you why... Because regardless of our SPIRIT conversion... we remain IN the CARNAL... and SIN which occurs AFTER conversion, must be CONFESSED -- As John aptly notes about BELIEVERS:

1 John 1:8 -- If we SAY that WE have NO SIN -- we DECIEVE ourselves, and the TRUTH is NOT -- in us.

And John counsels these BELIEVERS, who are SUBMITTED to JESUS -- yet STILL find SIN that is THEIRS to claim:

1 John 1:9If we CONFESS ...OUR... sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

This verse notes clear ownership of SIN to belong to the believer, and NOT to blame it on the BODY (members)... as if it is the BODY's fault the SIN took place... Please! REASON must accompany our conclusions or our conclusions are WITHOUT REASON...

When you go before GOD in judgment... are you going to blame your MEMBERS for your sin, Seth? Or will you "man-up" and offer REASON, and HUMILITY, and ACCOUNTABILITY to Him for what YOU DID... (youANDyour members)

It is CLEAR that the BODY and MIND have to agree in order for SIN to occur... and IT must be CONFESSED as YOUR OWN, and not to give GOD -- "the body made me do it" defense, ...which is every bit as weak as the "devil made me do it" defense...

That is what you see Seth, because that is what you wish to see... the TRUTH is otherwise... YOU are still YOU... even though you are now ONE in agreement with the INWARD man (CHRIST), ...YOU... and your SINFUL self, shall surface from time to time, and CONFESSION is therefore in order...

when we want to do good. And if we want to do good, but do bad (by unlawfully lusting for women) then it is THE SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME that does it.

Give me a break bro... It is the Natural Mind (will) responding to the desires of the flesh, which brings forth this, not just your "members" alone.

The SIN that "dwells in men" is the combination of the NATURAL MIND and the NATURAL desires of the body, that compose the IMPRISONED WILL of man...

And the SIN that dwelleth in YOU is the Natural YOU... and your CARNAL/Natural self... which fails to YIELD... and IS the cause and accountable person for the disobedience...

If you are YIELDED to the INWARD man (the WORD) -- then SIN shall not occur... but as John notes so kindly in -- 1 John 2:1 -- this WILL occur, and GOD knows it shall, and He and His SON together have made the necessary method and availability to access the needed reconciliation...

That is exactly why Paul speaks of lust being produced by sin that is already in us, and comes alive when met with the law.

You continue to self-decieve bro... Paul and John BOTH taught that SIN which proceeds from us, are OUR SINS... We cannot put the blame on the BODY and sidestep the real culprit -- in doing so we SELF DECIEVE -- 1 John 1:8

If you can't see it, you can't see it... Just as an ET'er won't see UR...

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I certainly didn't overcomplicate bro, ...I just (in my own words) quoted the SCRIPTURAL order in which SIN comes FORTH... and you know it bro...

YOu shouldn't assume what I know or do not. Because if you are saying that I know what you say is true and am denying, you would be calling me a liar.

Calm down little brother... didn't mean to ruffle your feathers...

If you cannot recognize the order which you are presently viewing is NOT what Scripture notes... then it is the same STRONG VEILING which is cast over the eyes of Calvinists which cannot see that they are NOT the only ones which GOD shall SAVE...

We all have our individual pathways to walk, with much to learn... the important thing is to keep REASON within our hearts, as we continue to search for more... often, we all hold on to things which should be "let go"...

Since learning of the Salvation of ALL MEN... the LORD has revealed an almost COMPLETELY different observation of what the Scriptures say... I am still learning DAILY... and am GLAD to make the changes...

Sorry bro, ... but as I read "your observation" of JESUS' temptation, ...He wasn't really "tempted" at ALL, ...AS... we are... Nor to the DEGREE we are tempted...

According to you: His "temptation" was a "walk in the park"... compared to the WAR in which we participate... He had NO real TUG at His integrity, nor did He have to WIN over EVIL... for He did not TRULY and ACTUALLY face it...

His temptation was in suffering death for us to bring reconciliation to the world.

Boy me-bratha ...you jump from "temptation" and make IT the summary of His MISSION... Part of His mission was to OVERCOME temptation... SUFFERING DEATH was taking that VICTORY, as well as His sufferings, ministry and fruit of all that, to and through DEATH, ...OVERCOMING, ...DEATH with LIFE...

The only reason we participate in a war is because we have not fully entered into God's.....now see this word....REST.

Jesus did overcome, the world. Sin was already overcome for him by God's rest. That is the example we are to follow by following Christ into that promised land, not in our own feeble struggles, but by GOD's HAND in our minds to change our former affections by his own choosing.

If this is your attempt at recognizing SOVEREIGNTY, then bless you, and I agree... the WHOLE schmeer was already noted before it happened... so in terms of SOVEREIGNTY, ...it as do ALL THINGS, occured at the notation of the ALMIGHTY, ...and the "OVERCOMING" was already a matter of FACT in ETERNITY and was accomplished before it began...

But concerning the CHRONLOGY of FINITE TIME... CHRISTwas TEMPTED AS are we in ALL POINTS... yet without SIN... LUST brings forth SIN, not the other way around...

Even your arguement that SIN exists in the members, still places CHRISTIN those "members"...

You are welcome to remain where you are bro, and until God makes any change in that stance, ...are encouraged to do so... Part of FAITH is to stand up for it... but while you stand strong, ...remain a vessel into which MORE can be poured...

I speak to you in opposition having already traveled the road you travel (and I did hear you came "my way" and have changed since)...

That said, may GOD use either your words, my words, or neither... at His descretion, as others read our conversation! And may He change either of us down the pathway if indeed we need change according to His WILL and PURPOSE...

Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMWillie, actually the horse before the cart is "being carnal sold under sin." That is where it all starts. All men are carnal SOLD UNDER SIN. Jesus was without sin.

Sorry bro... but ALL MEN, includes the MAN, JESUS... He was BORN of a SINFUL mother...

You have already noted that it is your belief that SIN is in the members... CHRIST had human, fleshly members as do we... One of our "members" is the MIND!

No Willie. The mind is not a body part. The physical BRAIN is the member. The MIND can be removed from the flesh by being in the Spirit thereby adopting the mind of the Father. That is why we are told to "have the mind of Christ" Corinthians 2:16. It doesn't say to find his physical brain and put it in your head.

Being a man is not enough. Christ was a man born of a sinful mother. However, he was a man without sin.

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMNotice that James does not say that Lust concieved brings forth sin IN OUR MEMBERS (limbs, body parts). Paul is very clear that the sin in our members is that which is at war with our minds, PRODUCING lust.

-- This actually makes me giggle a bit... It is the FLESHLY "members" which makes suggestion to the MIND "member", bro... My tummy is growling... suggesting to me (my mind) that it is TIME to FEED it...

The cart is still before the horse bro...

Don't confuse the brain with the mind. The reason that sin is in our flesh, is because as Christ said "What is flesh is flesh, and what is spirit is spirit." Flesh is naturally below and beneath the spirit. It misses the mark NATURALLY. The lust that is produced BY that flesh enters into a mind that doesn't want it. The mind then SUCCUMBS, or is placed in SUBJECTION to what it did not want. That is why our minds need renewing, and why we need to "put on the mind of Christ."

Romans 7:22-23For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMAnd James is clear that the lust produced by that sin, being "carnal and sold under sin" is what, siezed upon produces sin.

No the Bible says that, bro. James is talking about LUST. Lust is lawlessness. Sin oes the sin in us brother. Paul makes the clear distinction between "I" who wants to do good: the inner man, and "the body of this death" which produces lust CONTRARY to the desires of our mind.

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMby Sin in the members, producing lust, concieved produces sin. Lust in our minds SHOWS that we are already sold under sin before we knew it.

YOUR "NATURAL MIND" is a MEMBER of YOU... Not just the "meat parts"... The NATURAL HEART of man is DESPARATELY Wicked -- Jer 17:9 -- [

I believe you are creating your own vision of this to accomodate your belief bro... JESUS had HUMAN FLESH... you cannot sidestep this FACT... And it is YOUR ARGUEMENT that SIN is IN the members of human flesh...

When one is converted to CHRIST... one STILL remains either submitted or unsubmitted, for TWO dwell in each ONE... I live in me, and CHRIST lives in me (not just in my flesh)... and it is my REASONABLE service to sacrifice "MY WILL" in favor of the WILL of YHVH -- Rom 12:1 -- which is what CHRIST did, and which is what we must do in following Him.

I never denied that Jesus had human flesh. Being that Christ had the fullness of God in him That is what made him without sin WillieH. Christ was not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Again, do not confuse the brain with the mind. The CARNAL mind is what is emnity with God not just the mind, or the brain. Christ's mind was SPIRITUAL, which is why he was not in the flesh but in the SPIRIT.

Even Christ had flesh Willie, he was a man. He was a man without sin. He was not in the flesh but in the Spirit.

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMAs Paul clearly states:

Romans 720 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is speaking of a BELIEVER (Paul) who is NOW SUBMITTED to CHRIST, and who is STILL at WAR with that which he has ALWAYS been at war... The only thing that has changed is WHICH VOICE he is listening to... CHRIST (inward man) and the SPIRITUAL "WILL" of the FATHER, ...as opposed to formerly -- The VOICE of His MEMBERS and HIS NATURAL "WILL"...

If it is speaking of a believer, it would only be a believer who is submitting himself to the Law so that sin can deceive him and grow more sinful. Nothing in the Bible says that Christ "listened to the voice of his members."

The sin is in the members. Christ was APART FROM SIN.

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Let's see... If Peter & Paul are arguing, and Paul picks up a gun and shoots Peter... Who (sinfully) killed Peter, Seth? ...if you can't figure it out, I'll tell you -- PAUL killed Peter! NOT his "members"...

You fail to read the whole story bro... for PAUL at the end of this dissertation, notes:

Rom 7:24 -- O wretched man, that ...I ---> AM... How could He say this? He just said the SIN was no longer being DONE by Him?

He says that he is a wretched man WHY? Because he wants to do good but the sin in him is causing him to do bad. That is what makes a man wretched to be SOLD ...as...a.....SLAVE.....to....sin.

You could tell me that Paul killed Peter, but you would be missing the source. I would tell YOU, then, PAUL would have been a SLAVE to SIN.

If Paul was under the law, and sin in him contradicted the law to not commit murder, and Paul wished to do good but the sin in him produced murderous lust, then the sin in him would be the killer. And our being sold in SLAVERY to sin is what would make us wretched in binding us to do evil when we want to do good.

So yes, the sin in him would be committing the murder, when he wants to do good. And THAT slavery is what would make him wretched.

SLAVERY IS BENG UNDER BONDAGE AGAINST YOUR WILL TO SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT TO DO.

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1 John 1:8 -- If we SAY that WE have NO SIN -- we DECIEVE ourselves, and the TRUTH is NOT -- in us.

And John counsels these BELIEVERS, who are SUBMITTED to JESUS -- yet STILL find SIN that is THEIRS to claim:

1 John 1:9 If we CONFESS ...OUR... sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

This verse notes clear ownership of SIN to belong to the believer, and NOT to blame it on the BODY (members)... as if it is the BODY's fault the SIN took place... Please! REASON must accompany our conclusions or our conclusions are WITHOUT REASON...

Paul is clear that we have two laws within us: the law of sin in our members, and the law of our minds. One law becomes submitted to the other according to the body of sin. The sin in our members produces lust in us, that wars with our mind. That is the separation that Paul is talking about, between when we want to do good but cannot. That we cannot do good when we want to reveals that it is "no longer I who do it, but the sin in us." THAT IS SLAVERY.

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When you go before GOD in judgment... are you going to blame your MEMBERS for your sin, Seth? Or will you "man-up" and offer REASON, and HUMILITY, and ACCOUNTABILITY to Him for what YOU DID... (you AND your members)

No, as you have often stated. Are you ready for your own words: WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE, BUT WE ARE ACCOUNTABLE. Do you recognize those words?

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It is CLEAR that the BODY and MIND have to agree in order for SIN to occur... and IT must be CONFESSED as YOUR OWN, and not to give GOD -- "the body made me do it" defense, ...which is every bit as weak as the "devil made me do it" defense...

LOL THIS IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT PAUL SAYS! WOW He says that the law of the mind is OPPOSED to the law of sin in our members. That is what makes it a struggle. Not only that he says that SIN PRODUCES LUST AGAINST OUR WILL. Dude are you really reading it?

WillieH, what in the world do you think slavery is?

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMHe just said so. Sin is the one producing the lust

That is what you see Seth, because that is what you wish to see... the TRUTH is otherwise... YOU are still YOU... even though you are now ONE in agreement with the INWARD man (CHRIST), ...YOU... and your SINFUL self, shall surface from time to time, and CONFESSION is therefore in order...

Willie, the words will never dissapear. Sin produces lust. PERIOD. Not only does sin produce lust, it does so AGAINST THE WILL OF OUR MINDS.

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The SIN that "dwells in men" is the combination of the NATURAL MIND and the NATURAL desires of the body, that compose the IMPRISONED WILL of man...

And the SIN that dwelleth in YOU is the Natural YOU... and your CARNAL/Natural self... which fails to YIELD... and IS the cause and accountable person for the disobedience...

You are not reading Romans 7 carefully enough. We are "the inner man." WE WANT TO DO GOOD. The sin in our members produces BAD. That is why Paul says IF I WANT TO DO GOOD BUT CANNOT, IT IS NO LONGER I WHO DO IT BUT THE SIN IN ME.

Do you see how Paul draws the difference between "SIN" and "I?"

This being so, does God still hold us accountable though we are not responsible? YES! He holds us accountable so that we can be delivered!

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMThat is exactly why Paul speaks of lust being produced by sin that is already in us, and comes alive when met with the law.

You continue to self-decieve bro... Paul and John BOTH taught that SIN which proceeds from us, are OUR SINS... We cannot put the blame on the BODY and sidestep the real culprit -- in doing so we SELF DECIEVE -- 1 John 1:8

Identifying the thing responsible does not absolve from accountability. We DO have sin in us. But here is the rub: WE ARE SOLD AS SLAVES.

Romans 8: We are bound over into vanity by he who bound us to hope.

We do own our sins, yet we are not responsible for HAVING SIN. We are are nevertheless held accountable so that we can be delivered from sin.

Right. And being without sin is what caused Christ to be at peace. That is what it means to be in God's rest.

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e-bratha ...you jump from "temptation" and make IT the summary of His MISSION... Part of His mission was to OVERCOME temptation... SUFFERING DEATH was taking that VICTORY, as well as His sufferings, ministry and fruit of all that, to and through DEATH, ...OVERCOMING, ...DEATH with LIFE...

And all this overcoming is done by His father within him. Christ credited himself nothing. That is why by God's rest, he was without sin.

That is why we are told to "put on. Being a man is not enough. Christ was a man born of a sinful mother. However, he was a man without sin.

No matter how you try to avoid this Seth, I can tell you right now, that you cannot over argue me in this area... So as often as we exchange, you shall get refutation from me...

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMNotice that James does not say that Lust concieved brings forth sin IN OUR MEMBERS (limbs, body parts). Paul is very clear that the sin in our members is that which is at war with our minds, PRODUCING lust.

-- This actually makes me giggle a bit... It is the FLESHLY "members" which makes suggestion to the MIND "member", bro... My tummy is growling... suggesting to me (my mind) that it is TIME to FEED it...

No the Bible says that, bro. James is talking about LUST. Lust is lawlessness. Sin does the sin in us brother. Paul makes the clear distinction between "I" who wants to do good: the inner man, and "the body of this death" which produces lust CONTRARY to the desires of our mind.

Again bro... you take a portion of Scripture and re-adjust it to your perception instead of noting what IT SAYS... you note it to "say" what YOU SAY it SAYS...

James places LUST as preceeding SIN... and that a man is TEMPTED when drawn away by His own DESIRE (lust) -- if there is no "WHEN", there is no TEMPTATION! -- so TEMPTATION cannot even take place unless DESIRE draws away... SIN is only CONCIEVED when the DESIRE is enacted either mentally or physically or both...

The TEMPTATION itself, is NOT SIN... you wish to propose SIN is already in the members, but it is not so... SIN wars in the members when TEMPTATION via LUST, has concieved it.

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMby Sin in the members, producing lust, concieved produces sin. Lust in our minds SHOWS that we are already sold under sin before we knew it.

YOUR "NATURAL MIND" is a MEMBER of YOU... Not just the "meat parts"...

The NATURAL HEART of man is DESPARATELY Wicked -- Jer 17:9

I believe you are creating your own vision of this to accomodate your belief bro... JESUS had HUMAN FLESH... you cannot sidestep this FACT... And it is YOUR ARGUEMENT that SIN is IN the members of human flesh...

When one is converted to CHRIST... one STILL remains either submitted or unsubmitted, for TWO dwell in each ONE... I live in me, and CHRIST lives in me (not just in my flesh)... and it is my REASONABLE service to sacrifice "MY WILL" in favor of the WILL of YHVH -- Rom 12:1 -- which is what CHRIST did, and which is what we must do in following Him.

Christ had the fullness of God in him. That is what made him without sin WillieH. Again, do not confuse the brain with the mind. The CARNAL mind is what is emnity with God not just the mind, or the brain. Christ's mind was SPIRITUAL, which is why he was not in the flesh but in the SPIRIT.

Again Seth... I am not confused... so please don't insinuate that I am...

CHRIST's mind as a MAN was a MAN's mind Seth... In order to be TEMPTED, it was the NATURAL mind which He inherited from His BIRTH MOTHER... which made Him the SON of MAN, with the MIND of a MAN...

I have already extensively explained this, so I wont bother repeating it.

Even Christ had flesh Willie, he was a man. He was a man without sin. He was not in the flesh but in the Spirit.

You make Him a MAN without the mind of a MAN... which is not a MAN at all. In order to be TEMPTED there had to be a separate portion IN HIM that was NOT GOD, for GOD cannot be tempted as JAMES earlier explains in verse 13... He was careful to note this, because CHRIST's TEMPTATION could not have been VALID and said to be OVERCOMING, if His mind was "hedge protected"... It was NOT... which is why the Father was WELL pleased in Him, for He submitted to YHVH instead of the yearnings of His members...

As I said in the last post bro... you don't get it? ...well, you don't get it.

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMAs Paul clearly states:

Romans 720 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is speaking of a BELIEVER (Paul) who is NOW SUBMITTED to CHRIST, and who is STILL at WAR with that which he has ALWAYS been at war... The only thing that has changed is WHICH VOICE he is listening to... CHRIST (inward man) and the SPIRITUAL "WILL" of the FATHER, ...as opposed to formerly -- The VOICE of His MEMBERS and HIS NATURAL "WILL"...

If it is speaking of a believer, it would only be a believer who is submitting himself to the Law so that sin can deceive him and grow more sinful. Nothing in the Bible says that Christ "listened to the voice of his members."

Okay, to satisfy semantic nitpicking... He did not listen to the VOICE of HIS OWN "WILL" (which so happens to be His human mind)... will that suffice for you?

If Paul was under the law, and sin in him contradicted the law to not commit murder, and Paul wished to do good but the sin in him produced murderous lust, then the sin in him would be the killer. And our being sold in SLAVERY to sin is what would make us wretched in binding us to do evil when we want to do good.

And we would then send his SIN to the electric chair Seth? Come on dude... If PAUL is sinning... it is HE which must confess that SIN... not only that, but if he truly is stating that He has no sin and that it is His BODY which is the culprit... then he is SELF DECEIVING as noted by John -- 1 John 1:8

You misunderstand Pauls words bro... Paul is not saying that he is no longer accountable for SIN in himself... The Son he has become in JESUS is not the sinner, the MAN that HE IS, is the sinner... In the SPIRIT he serves the LAW of GOD, but in the FLESH (which includes his MIND as a MAN), the LAW of SIN... which is WHY he finds that he (Paul) ..."does" what he (Paul) ..."does not wish to do"... TWO "he's" in opposition... son of man, Son of God

Quote from: willieH

1 John 1:8 -- If we SAY that WE have NO SIN -- we DECIEVE ourselves, and the TRUTH is NOT -- in us.

And John counsels these BELIEVERS, who are SUBMITTED to JESUS -- yet STILL find SIN that is THEIRS to claim:

1 John 1:9 If we CONFESS ...OUR... sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

This verse notes clear ownership of SIN to belong to the believer, and NOT to blame it on the BODY (members)... as if it is the BODY's fault the SIN took place... Please! REASON must accompany our conclusions or our conclusions are WITHOUT REASON...

Paul is clear that we have two laws within us: the law of sin in our members, and the law of our minds. One law becomes submitted to the other according to the body of sin. The sin in our members produces lust in us, that wars with our mind. That is the separation that Paul is talking about, between when we want to do good but cannot. That we cannot do good when we want to reveals that it is "no longer I who do it, but the sin in us."

Are you really convinced Seth, that YOU do not do YOUR sin any longer? And that when YOU "sin", that YOU are not accountable for it?

Will you say to God... "Hey Paul said that it was no longer him sinning, but the SIN in his members doing the sin... and it's the same in my case! ...I... didn't SIN, ...MY body... did it." Are you hearing yourself?

It is the "satan" or adversary within you which has brought forth this self-deception...

And when you come before GOD's Judgment... are you gonna present the "my body made me do it" defense? Sorry brother S... but I shall not fool myself in such ways.

It is just a lot of double talk... No offense brother Seth, ...you are welcome to believe this baloney... and try to convince yourself it is true... as for me, NO THANKS!

In order for TEMPTATION to have been OVERCOME by CHRIST... it had to be PRESENTED to CHRIST, as it has in ALL other MEN... Not only THAT, but -- we aren't even in His "league"... what is extremely difficult for us... is mere pidlets to Him...

Our members are NOT SINFUL of themselves (including the WILL/mind)... but they DO contain DESIRES... which when submitted to, can be SINFUL... and bring it forth.

Quote from: willieH

When you go before GOD in judgment... are you going to blame your MEMBERS for your sin, Seth? Or will you "man-up" and offer REASON, and HUMILITY, and ACCOUNTABILITY to Him for what YOU DID... (you AND your members)

No, as you have often stated. Are you ready for your own words: WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE, BUT WE ARE ACCOUNTABLE. Do you recognize those words?

Ahem... ah... hem... did I not just STATE ACCOUNTABILITY Seth? Where did I say we were RESPONSIBLE Seth? I said no such thing...

I DID SAY: We ARE -- ACCOUNTABLE -- which would be UNNECESSARY according to your thinking, for YOU are not "doing" your SINS... your MEMBERS are the culprits...

So is it also your "vision" that your BODY must stand before GOD, without YOU and GIVE ACCOUNT for its SINFULNESS, Seth? (cuz after all, YOU are not doing the sin, so there is nothing for YOU to give "account" for is there? )

Quote from: willieH

It is CLEAR that the BODY and MIND have to agree in order for SIN to occur... and IT must be CONFESSED as YOUR OWN, and not to give GOD -- "the body made me do it" defense, ...which is every bit as weak as the "devil made me do it" defense...

LOL THIS IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT PAUL SAYS! He says that the law of the mind is OPPOSED to the law of sin in our members. That is what makes it a struggle. Not only that he says that SIN PRODUCES LUST AGAINST OUR WILL. Dude are you really reading it?

Then SIN did not ENTER by ADAM, ...it entered BY GOD creating IT within Him according to your thinking Seth...

It was IN his (and Eve's) members to begin with, if I am to follow you into your ditch... for SIN according to your perception of Paul's words is IN the MEMBERS... No temptation is even necessary... SIN is there to begin with... What a lot of HOGWASH! (no offense bro, but it is HOGWASH)

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMHe just said so. Sin is the one producing the lust

That is what you see Seth, because that is what you wish to see... the TRUTH is otherwise... YOU are still YOU... even though you are now ONE in agreement with the INWARD man (CHRIST), ...YOU... and your SINFUL self, shall surface from time to time, and CONFESSION is therefore in order...

You are not reading Romans 7 carefully enough. We are "the inner man." WE WANT TO DO GOOD. The sin in our members produces BAD. That is why Paul says IF I WANT TO DO GOOD BUT CANNOT, IT IS NO LONGER I WHO DO IT BUT THE SIN IN ME.

Seth... the HEART (mind of MAN) of itself, is DESPARATELY WICKED and DECEITFUL above ALL! -- Jer 17:9 -- ...WE do not wish to do GOOD... we wish to SIN... The mind of man in its natural state is DEPRAVED.

The INWARD MAN is not YOU... the INWARD MAN is CHRIST... IN YOU... It is only the GOODNESS of GOD ...which is IN YOU... that leads you to REPENTENCE, Seth... You don't repent because YOU wish to do GOOD... you "repent" because CHRIST ...in you, leads you to it...

CHRIST stated that He would NEVER leave us... which means that in order for these words to be TRUE, He has ALWAYS been within us... it is the REVELATION of HIM ...in us... that occurs... otherwise the word NEVER cannot be utilized... for the word "NEVER" means NOT AT ANY TIME... and includes prior, during and after...

This being so, does God still hold us accountable though we are not responsible? YES! He holds us accountable so that we can be delivered!

I believe I DO see what Paul is saying... but I do not percieve your vision as revealed concerning his words...

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Quote from: Seth on Today at 05:03:11 PMThat is exactly why Paul speaks of lust being produced by sin that is already in us, and comes alive when met with the law.

You continue to self-decieve bro... Paul and John BOTH taught that SIN which proceeds from us, are OUR SINS... We cannot put the blame on the BODY and sidestep the real culprit -- in doing so we SELF DECIEVE -- 1 John 1:8

No Seth... the MIND IS a MEMBER of the Body... For without the MIND, the body is INANIMATE... The physical BRAIN, is where the MIND which is also a member of the BODY, resides...

Sorry WillieH the mind is not a member. The brain is. That is exactly why Paul DISTINGUISHES the sin in his members, from his MIND with which he delights in God's law. That is why he says "I know that in me (THAT IS IN MY FLESH) dwelleth no good thing."

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No matter how you try to avoid this Seth, I can tell you right now, that you cannot over argue me in this area... So as often as we exchange, you shall get refutation from me...

Very well.

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I am not the least confused bro... and as Beloved noted to you, you are not my teacher, never will be... nor do I aspire to teach you...

The brain is the physical element or house in which the MIND which is a member of a PHYSICAL experience, resides... no confusion.

The mind is scripturally distinguished from the members in the scripture bro.

By the way, I am not trying to be your teacher. Just sharing what I believe.

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James places LUST as preceeding SIN... and that a man is TEMPTED when drawn away by His own DESIRE (lust) -- if there is no "WHEN", there is no TEMPTATION! -- so TEMPTATION cannot even take place unless DESIRE draws away... SIN is only CONCIEVED when the DESIRE is enacted either mentally or physically or both...

And Paul is clear that the sin within him, in the members PRODUCES lust. Christ being WITHOUT SIN, no sin could produce lust contrary to God. He was apart from it.

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Again Seth... I am not confused... so please don't insinuate that I am...

CHRIST's mind as a MAN was a MAN's mind Seth... In order to be TEMPTED, it was the NATURAL mind which He inherited from His BIRTH MOTHER... which made Him the SON of MAN, with the MIND of a MAN...

I have already extensively explained this, so I wont bother repeating it.

Christ was apart from sin. That is how he was different from us. So, no lust contrary to his father could be produced in him to be led away with.

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You make Him a MAN without the mind of a MAN... which is not a MAN at all. In order to be TEMPTED there had to be a separate portion IN HIM that was NOT GOD, for GOD cannot be tempted as JAMES earlier explains in verse 13... He was careful to note this, because CHRIST's TEMPTATION could not have been VALID and said to be OVERCOMING, if His mind was "hedge protected"... It was NOT... which is why the Father was WELL pleased in Him, for He submitted to YHVH instead of the yearnings of His members...

As I said in the last post bro... you don't get it? ...well, you don't get it.

It's not that I don't get it. I disagree with what is plainly unscriptural bro. Christ was a man, and he was in all ways tempted like us APART FROM SIN. He was not in the flesh but in the Spirit as the Spirit of God dwelled in him without measure.

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Okay, to satisfy semantic nitpicking... He did not listen to the VOICE of HIS OWN "WILL" (which so happens to be His human mind)... will that suffice for you?

The difference between your belief and mine is that I realize that Christ did not HAVE to listen to the voice in his members because unlike us he was without sin in his members to produce it. HIS mind which also delighted after the Law of God was not ENSLAVED to sin. In fact it was apart from sin. It was total GRACE. GOD kept Christ in his rest so that he did not HAVE to struggle with lust in his mind. That is the grace of God to do what we cannot of ourselves do: change our evil desires by ourselves.

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Again... SIN is not born until the MEMBERS submit to TEMPTATION... If CHRIST were totally apart from the possibility of SIN, then He OVERCAME nothing...

Something like you observing your baby being born and then stating that you KNOW how your wife FEELS... You KNOW nothing of the SORT...

Or if you are observing another having a toothache when you have never had one, and saying you KNOW how they FEEL... You KNOW nothing of the SORT...

Sin WORKS FORTH SIN, WillieH. How do I know that? THE BIBLE SAYS SO. SIN PRODUCES UNGODLY DESIRE (which is in itself against God's law.) That is why Paul says "It is no longer I who do it, but the Sin in me."

God's sovereignty is ALL OVER that verse WillieH. That is what makes man a SLAVE. Christ was apart from sin that it should create lust in him to be drawn away by. That means the sin in his members, he was apart from it, that it did not influence him to be ABLE to create lust with him.

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SIN is NOT in the members as a MEMBER.

I never said that sin is in the members "as a member." I just quoted the Bible that says "sin is in the members."

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And we would then send his SIN to the electric chair Seth?

GOOD GRIEF WILLIEH. The answer is NO! PAUL WOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. BUT, he would not have been RESPONSIBLE for his sin. He would not be CAUSAL. The sin would be causal, NOT Paul. That is why it is called "slavery." That is why the sin within us does the sin, but we are still held accountable.

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Are you really convinced Seth, that YOU do not do YOUR sin any longer? And that when YOU "sin", that YOU are not accountable for it?

When I want to do good, and cannot, it is no longer I who do it but the sin in me. That would be slavery. But I am STILL held accountable for the sin that does what I would not want to do. The reason for that accountability is to be delivered from sin.

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And when you come before GOD's Judgment... are you gonna present the "my body made me do it" defense?

UM NO?

God will already know that it was not me, but the sin in me that does it. BUT he will make me accountable so that I can be delivered.

Wow bro. You are not paying attention.

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Our members are NOT SINFUL of themselves (including the WILL/mind)... but they DO contain DESIRES... which when submitted to, can be SINFUL... and bring it forth.

More unscriptural statments. Our members DO contain sin. NOT ONLY THAT, but they produce desires which are BY DEFINITION unlawful. The law says "Do not sin." What does sin produce? LUST....which itself is unlawful.

The law of our minds wish to do good. Sin produces lust contrary to what our minds want. That is simply what it says.

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Ahem... ah... hem... did I not just STATE ACCOUNTABILITY Seth? Where did I say we were RESPONSIBLE Seth? I said no such thing...

I DID SAY: We ARE -- ACCOUNTABLE -- which would be UNNECESSARY according to your thinking, for YOU are not "doing" your SINS... your MEMBERS are the culprits...

I SEE the difference in responsibility versus accountability. WillieH DID GOD HOLD PHARAOH ACCOUNTABLE? If God had planned for Pharoah to disobey him, then why hold him responsible. Pharoah was not RESPONSIBLE for disobeying God, for GOD himself hardened Pharoah's heart. But God DID hold him accountable unto his glory. The Potter and the clay.

The fact that Paul says "IF I WANT TO GOOD, AND I CANNOT, THEN IT IS NO LONGER I WHO DOES IT, BUT THE SIN IN ME" shows that man is not RESPONSIBLE or CAUSAL for the sin, but he is still held ACCOUNTABLE.

He said those words and YOU have to face them. Within those words PAUL shows that while we were not responsible we are still held accountable.

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Then SIN did not ENTER by ADAM, ...it entered BY GOD creating IT within Him according to your thinking Seth...

It was IN his (and Eve's) members to begin with, if I am to follow you into your ditch... for SIN according to your perception of Paul's words is IN the MEMBERS... No temptation is even necessary... SIN is there to begin with... What a lot of HOGWASH! (no offense bro, but it is HOGWASH)

UM, sin being in the members is BIBLICAL. The temptation occurs when a man is carried away BY lust and enticed. The sin in the members brings forth lust CONTRARY to the law of our mind.

That is why the sin in our members is AT WAR with the law of our minds.

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Seth... the HEART (mind of MAN) of itself, is DESPARATELY WICKED and DECEITFUL above ALL! -- Jer 17:9 -- ...WE do not wish to do GOOD... we wish to SIN... The mind of man in its natural state is DEPRAVED.

WillieH, the sin in our members is what CAUSES US to want to sin. IT PRODUCES LUST. That means that our inward sin OVERRIDES our desire to to that which is good and creates LUST, so that when we wanted to not lust, we lusted anyway. That's called slavery.

Romans 7For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not (I try not to do): for what I would (WANT), that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it IS NO MORE I THAT DO IT, but sin that dwelleth in me.For I know that in me (that is, IN MY FLESH,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

For the good that I would (WANT - like obeying the commandment not to have unlawful desire) I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, IT IS NO MORE I THAT DO IT BUT THE SIN IN ME. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, WARRING against the law of my mind, and bringing ME into CAPTIVITYto the law of sin which is in my members.

It is clear that when I do the evil that I do not want to do "It is no more I that do it, but the sin in me." Just quoting the scripture. Good grief, it says that TWICE.

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Seth... it is YOU which have introduced the word "responsible"... I have not used this term concerning SIN, nor shall I...

That's good because Bible puts the RESPONSIBILITY on sin itself creating lawlessness within us. And he puts the accountability on us that we can be delivered..

Romans 11:32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Who is responsible for the disobedience there? God. Yet he still judges people for being so. Same thing. God knows that it is the SIN in us that causes us to do and think unlawful things. But he makes us accountable so that he can have mercy by judging that sin out of us.

You see how "Whatever is not of faith is sin" right? And you see God BLINDING people to be without faith, right? So you see there that GOD is claiming the causal responsibility, yet still making man accountable.

If you can see that, why is it so hard to see that when a person want to do good, and cannot, then it is no longer them who do it, but the sin in them? And why having seen that, is it so hard to accept that God STILL holds us accountable in the same way he does in Romans 11?