If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Well, when you have one party's leadership that is being completely unreasonable about this ... 98% if the people vs 2% of the people ... it's pretty clear to me who is in the wrong. And I don't think it will be too hard for the American people to figure it out, either IF this scenario would occur and the Republicans would decide not to sign off on Middle Class tax cuts.

It would be political suicide on their part.

Tell me Chance, what do you think the Republicans should do if the Fiscal Cliff expires, and Middle Class tax cuts (only) are introduced?

I like the fact that Obama is actually negotiating with the Republicans and not himself this time. He is actually throwing out the first offer with everything he wants on the table and then will work down from that and get exactly what he thinks he can get. This is much different from him taking off the public option, etc. before even starting the negotiation with the Republicans years back.

Well, the bottom line is that the Republicans will be screwed. I think Obama should let the fiscal cliff simply expire ... which I am sure is part of the plan.

Then, when taxes go up for everyone, the Dems can initiate a bill to lower taxes for just the Middle Class. If the Republicans don't sign it, then they will be fucked in the eyes of the American people.

But this way, the Republicans would be covered since they could tell their rich donors that technically, they "did not vote to raise taxes on them".

I wouldn't be surprised if this is what happens.

Let's not forget he tried to do exactly that before and Republicans managed to obstruct it until they got their tax cuts too.

Not that I like defending Jack, but this first offer by the administration was not a good way to start off. It varied hugely from what Obama had been discussing in the campaign, so its not shocking that the Republicans balked. The inclusion of a request to give the president unilateral power to raise the debt ceiling should have told anyone this wasn't a serious offer from the start. (not even the democrats would approve that)

How else to keep the Tea Party klingons from holding the country hostage again, and ruining America's credit rating more?

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

The will of the people is completely against a 'compromise' on restoring the higher tax rates on the upper 2%.

That is what you are defending the GOP making their hard stance on despite all your blathering nonsense here about the Dems just being partisan or whatever else.

Agreed. Are we a democratic republic or not? The will of the majority of people is pretty crystal clear ... but we see where the "republic" part of our government comes into play in which those elected decide to take other positions because they are more lucrative to themselves as opposed to their constituents.

If Republican voters had any sense, they would vote these people ... such as Boehner, McConnell, and Cantor out in droves in the 2014 elections ... because it's pretty clear that the leadership is in business for themselves, not their constituents.

Agreed. Are we a democratic republic or not? The will of the majority of people is pretty crystal clear ... but we see where the "republic" part of our government comes into play in which those elected decide to take other positions because they are more lucrative to themselves as opposed to their constituents.

If Republican voters had any sense, they would vote these people ... such as Boehner, McConnell, and Cantor out in droves in the 2014 elections ... because it's pretty clear that the leadership is in business for themselves, not their constituents.

Alternatively they can just delude themselves into saying those people are defending the 'real' will of the 'real' American people and the 'real' well-being of the United States, unlike those evil partisan Democrats. Who cares what the stats and surveys say, it's not like numbers or facts meant much to them before the election.

pelosi is going to try and get 218 house members to sign a discharge petition on the senate tax bill. wont need boehner if it succeeds. obama is saying he will sign it.

It was a sad day when they changed the number of votes required for discharge from one-third to one-half. If one third of the House members think a bill should be considered, then it should be.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Of course it wasn't serious. However, it provides considerable insight into Obama's thinking.

Yes -- it shows that he wants to save the country from the House Republicans who have no interest in actually serving their country, but who've instead bowed down to an unelected ideologue who has about as much economic sense as my dog.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

I like the fact that Obama is actually negotiating with the Republicans and not himself this time. He is actually throwing out the first offer with everything he wants on the table and then will work down from that and get exactly what he thinks he can get. This is much different from him taking off the public option, etc. before even starting the negotiation with the Republicans years back.

In other words, he's learned to deal with people who are scheming and dishonest.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Agreed. Are we a democratic republic or not? The will of the majority of people is pretty crystal clear ... but we see where the "republic" part of our government comes into play in which those elected decide to take other positions because they are more lucrative to themselves as opposed to their constituents.

If Republican voters had any sense, they would vote these people ... such as Boehner, McConnell, and Cantor out in droves in the 2014 elections ... because it's pretty clear that the leadership is in business for themselves, not their constituents.

At this point, no. What's really going on is that a minority of Congress has shanghaied the process: The Tea Party ideologues have Boehner by the throat, and they're but a minority of the House. If we weren't locked in to the bipolar two party mess, they'd be a separate party because Boehner would reject them and then with the Democrats actually get things done. As it is, that minority holds him by the balls because he wants to keep being Speaker -- even though the office is essentially meaningless because he can't do anything of which the Tea Party doesn't approve. Thus that minority holds all of Congress hostage to their will -- except since not all of Congress is cowed, they hold the nation's capital to paralysis.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Agreed. Are we a democratic republic or not? The will of the majority of people is pretty crystal clear ... but we see where the "republic" part of our government comes into play in which those elected decide to take other positions because they are more lucrative to themselves as opposed to their constituents.

If Republican voters had any sense, they would vote these people ... such as Boehner, McConnell, and Cantor out in droves in the 2014 elections ... because it's pretty clear that the leadership is in business for themselves, not their constituents.

nice attempt

at taking one element (250k tax cuts) and extracting it

and saying that's what people want

people know (or they should) that that single element is bullshit as it relates to addressing real reform

I suspect we will go "over the cliff" because of the dysfunction within the Republican Party. Republicans are not in a position right now to participate in the democratic process. They will not be able to come to any kind of agreement with the administration, short of the administration agreeing to all of their demands (which would be absurd, of course). But, going over the cliff won't be a bad thing (unless you're a Republican). Democrats will get most of what they want by such an eventuality. Republicans will lose the only thing they care about - tax breaks for the phenomenally wealthy.

Boehner is not in a position where he can make demands. But, demands are all his party is capable of offering.

Well, the bottom line is that the Republicans will be screwed. I think Obama should let the fiscal cliff simply expire ... which I am sure is part of the plan.

Then, when taxes go up for everyone, the Dems can initiate a bill to lower taxes for just the Middle Class. If the Republicans don't sign it, then they will be fucked in the eyes of the American people.

But this way, the Republicans would be covered since they could tell their rich donors that technically, they "did not vote to raise taxes on them".

I wouldn't be surprised if this is what happens.

That is what I have said will happen from the start. What is even better is the new congress can blame the recalcitrance on the previous tea party dominated congress and then start working on actually passing legislation.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Very good read and yes I agree this will be catastrophic for republican willpower over the next year until it heads to election time again. Then if trounced (and they will be) the republican party will really start its trip into the wilderness.

Just one thought: How many have claimed Obama is a poor negotiator and what not?

How many more have said he is a guy who sees the long game?

If this ends the way I think it will Obama will have walked republicans into a trap of their own building. Genius.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Oh I almost forgot the talks may have some air taken out of them because of something I saw Nancy Pelois speaking about Friday. Essentially they have the support in the House to pass a tax cut for 98% of America... By Wednesday the democrats will froce that bill to the floor.

there is precedent for sauch a thing and if you read the reuters piece there is also a precedent of outrageous statements on both sides and then signing a deal just before Christmas so they don't mess up their own holiday... Expect lots of movement next week.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

1.) The blame game (and there is plenty of blame to go around):
-Pre-election, I always put this at 30% Obama (stubbornness, buying into his own nonsense a bit too much), 70% GOP obstructionism (holding the country hostage, hoping the economy continued to struggle and the public would blame Obama... it didn't work btw).
-Post-election, 99% GOP obstuctionism (you guys lost... get a clue).
2.) The current political reality:
-One party got trounced beyond even what most expected; one party did not.
-One party holds all of the cards; the other holds none.
-One party is going to be blamed regardless; one party is not.

So... sure... Obama's opening bid was ridiculous... but he holds all the cards. Just logically, it should be obvious that the party that is going to be blamed regardless has to be the one that budges first... and, if it does, I think Obama will be reasonable. But.. it's as if the GOP realizes it's fucked... but is in "deer in headlights" mode... they don't know what to do... because they lose either way... they are just stalling and praying that something magically changes... (it's not going to). So... they can either cave now and hope to gain some face as a reasonable (losing) party... or continue to drag this country down and destroy their party even more.

It is nonsense to say the Republicans lost and hold no cards. Romney lost the Presidency after being totally demonized. But Republicans retain the House, where the Constitution says all revenue bills must start.
Since Obama campaigned almost entirely upon personal attacks on Romney, Bain Capital, rich guy, dog on the car roof, etc, etc, you must now realize that the election is not an endorsement of either Obama or the Democrats. You can't have both ways guys.

Would democrats give a republican President the right to raise the national debt on his own?

Let me ask you this Jack... how does the congress control the debt ceiling? Is it by bankrupting america and downgrading our credit while simultaneously throwing billions of american worth down the drain and causing interest rates to rise on what we borrow? Is that the sensible path or by controlling the purse strings and only authorizing spending on what is required and then acquiring revenue to cover those expenditures? If they wanna control the debt then they need to not spend the money in the first place.

The debt ceiling MUST always be rasied if we have previously voted to spend the money. Not doing so is simply a hostage tactic of an out of power party that does nothing but damage the country. Same as the filibuster.

Originally Posted by Benvolio

It is nonsense to say the Republicans lost and hold no cards. Romney lost the Presidency after being totally demonized. But Republicans retain the House, where the Constitution says all revenue bills must start.
Since Obama campaigned almost entirely upon personal attacks on Romney, Bain Capital, rich guy, dog on the car roof, etc, etc, you must now realize that the election is not an endorsement of either Obama or the Democrats. You can't have both ways guys.

See this is a ridiculous statement. WHAT happens on Jan 1st dude? The debate is over. The republicans just need to decide if the american people or Grover Norquist is more important.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

It is nonsense to say the Republicans lost and hold no cards. Romney lost the Presidency after being totally demonized. But Republicans retain the House, where the Constitution says all revenue bills must start.
Since Obama campaigned almost entirely upon personal attacks on Romney, Bain Capital, rich guy, dog on the car roof, etc, etc, you must now realize that the election is not an endorsement of either Obama or the Democrats. You can't have both ways guys.

Romney was demonized somehow above and beyond what the right said and continues to say (including in this forum) about Obama for the last four years?

If being demonized is a handicap in an election, both sides suffered it so I don't see why this explains how he lost.

Let me ask you this Jack... how does the congress control the debt ceiling? Is it by bankrupting america and downgrading our credit while simultaneously throwing billions of american worth down the drain and causing interest rates to rise on what we borrow? Is that the sensible path or by controlling the purse strings and only authorizing spending on what is required and then acquiring revenue to cover those expenditures? If they wanna control the debt then they need to not spend the money in the first place.

The debt ceiling MUST always be rasied if we have previously voted to spend the money. Not doing so is simply a hostage tactic of an out of power party that does nothing but damage the country. Same as the filibuster.

See this is a ridiculous statement. WHAT happens on Jan 1st dude? The debate is over. The republicans just need to decide if the american people or Grover Norquist is more important.

You raise taxes or cut spending to bring the country back into the black. Something both parties has not done recently.

As I said before -- Congress should not give up the right. Obama is crazy even asking them to do it.

You raise taxes or cut spending to bring the country back into the black. Something both parties has not done recently.

As I said before -- Congress should not give up the right. Obama is crazy even asking them to do it.

As mentioned, I agree that the president's starting point is silly. That being said, again, THE GOP HAS NO PLAYING CARDS. As such, it is their responsibility to counter offer with something more reasonable. Unfortunately, the GOP has backed itself into a real conundrum:
-Compromise on a deal that might actually help the country (heaven forbid) and risk seeing Obama's policies become a success, which may help Dems politically.
-Or, continue to hold the country hostage and be thoroughly blamed for all ill-effects to be had on the economy.

I personally think the first option is better; it at least allows them to look like adults and like they are at least feigning an interest in the good of the nation. The second option is not only bad for the country, but also is an express pass into GOP irrelevancy.

You raise taxes or cut spending to bring the country back into the black. Something both parties has not done recently.

As I said before -- Congress should not give up the right. Obama is crazy even asking them to do it.

But you fail to realize they still hold the purse.... the way it is written is the president request an amount. the congress proposes an amount and he can then veto that amount if it doesnt meet our debt obligation. They can then overtunr the veto. They still have the power.

The problem is they hold the purse strings... we all agree that correct?

SO if congress voted already to spend the money they cannot then decide to become deadbeats. That is irresponsible.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

I agree, however, that is exactly one of the demands Obama is making right now. He wants the power to raise the debt ceiling and not involve Congress.

It's absurd to look at it as a negotiating point.

Read my post above... what has been suggested DOES NOT IN ANYWAY dissolve the responsibility of the congress to approve the debt ceiling... except they do so by approving spending.

What is absurd is to have a congress that already has agreed to spend X amount and then having a party that is out of power and not governing deciding the one way they can throw a temper tantrum is to prevent the other party from legislating anything else while they argue over spending money they already agreed to spend.

Jack what would happen to you if you bought a new car and then went back to the bank and said... after further consideration it cost too much so your not paying the full amount? There is no difference here....

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Oh I almost forgot the talks may have some air taken out of them because of something I saw Nancy Pelois speaking about Friday. Essentially they have the support in the House to pass a tax cut for 98% of America... By Wednesday the democrats will froce that bill to the floor.

there is precedent for sauch a thing and if you read the reuters piece there is also a precedent of outrageous statements on both sides and then signing a deal just before Christmas so they don't mess up their own holiday... Expect lots of movement next week.

It used to take a petition by 1/3 of the House to get a bill on the floor despite committee or Speaker. The number's now half, but with the frustration by many real Republicans with the Tea Partists I can see Pelosi managing that.

So does Boehner allow the vote, and look like he caved, or stand fast, and risk looking ineffective?

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Would democrats give a republican President the right to raise the national debt on his own?

You mean "authority" -- presidents don't have rights, as presidents; they only have them as private citizens.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

I agree, however, that is exactly one of the demands Obama is making right now. He wants the power to raise the debt ceiling and not involve Congress.

It's absurd to look at it as a negotiating point.

It's absurd to look at it as anything else.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Updated 3:25 p.m. ET -- Republicans offered up their own proposal to avert the impending “fiscal cliff” on Monday amid Democratic demands that the GOP match the Obama administration’s plan with one of their own.

In a letter to President Barack Obama, House Republican leaders outlined the contours of a deal they said would achieve a net savings of $2.2 trillion. The plan, which is based on fiscal commission Democratic co-chairman Erskine Bowles’s proposal to the super committee, would achieve these savings through revenue from tax reforms, health savings and discretionary spending cuts.

BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "