Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Horror Sober

So wait. Let me get this straight. You can't buy it that Superman would be regularly challenged by a mere human who happens to be a billionaire, a corporate giant, and a genius intellect named Lex Luthor, but you totally support the idea that Superman is regularly challenged by a mere human who happens to be a billionaire, a corporate giant, and a genius intellect named Bruce Wayne?

The only thing evidenced here is your continued willful ignorance toward Superman and your hypocrisy toward him and the characters that surround him.

I don't have problem with Batman and the characters that surround him because his regular enemy has always been the Joker. Batman and the Joker are both humans so they're evenly matched.

..........People raised hell and complained that Spiderman 3 had too many villians. This reboot has just as many, yet everyone is okay with that.......Gimme a break.

The problem people had with Spidey 3 was not so much with how many villains it had, but more like how Venom was "rushed" and poorly done. In the end it only had 2 villains because Harry Osborn sided with Spider-Man anyway.
The lesson learned from Spidey 3 is to never rush Venom. Venom is a very dedicated character and it takes time to build up. Now it's looking that way with the new Spider-Man. They're planning to give Venom his own movie. That's very good.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

With Friday’s announcement by Warner Bros. that Jesse Eisenberg will play Lex Luthor in the upcoming sequel to 2013′s Superman reboot blockbuster Man of Steel, with Jeremy Irons announced as Batman’s faithful butler Alfred, the Internet was abuzz with fan and media reaction. However, mostly overlooked in the studio’s official statement were a few interesting details that speak volumes about how the superhero sequel is evolving and what it could mean for the future of DC comic book adaptations in the future.

Warner’s statement quotes director Zack Snyder at length, and refers to the movie as “Snyder’s film.” It notes Henry Cavill reprises his role as Superman; Ben Affleck stars as Batman (so you can ignore online rumors about Affleck departing); Gal Gadot will be the first big-screen Wonder Woman; and Amy Adams, Laurence Fishburne, and Diane Lane will return in their supporting roles from Man of Steel. But then things get more interesting.

The official announcement includes this paragraph (italics added for emphasis):

The new film is currently being written by Chris Terrio, from a screenplay by David S. Goyer. Charles Roven and Deborah Snyder are producing, with Benjamin Melniker, Michael E. Uslan, Wesley Coller, David S. Goyer and Geoff Johns serving as executive producers.

It’s surprising that there’s been no significant reaction to these statements. First of all, notice that the names Christopher Nolan and Emma Thomas are absent from the list of executive producers. Second, screenwriter David Goyer’s name appears twice, the first time being at the end of a sentence referring to the project as “the new film” that is “being written by Chris Terrio.” Goyer’s name is also listed among the executive producers of the project.

It seems Warner recognizes the slight underperformance of Man of Steel can’t be blamed on Snyder, who probably elevated the material and helped it perform better. The problems were structural and in the approach, and I think this became even more clear to them after Ben Affleck came aboard the project. Affleck was clearly impressed with the general road map for how to proceed and with Snyder’s and Goyer’s plans overall, but there are signs — and much buzz from some sources — suggesting Affleck was concerned about some particulars of how the sequel was taking shape. The clearest sign was the arrival of screenwriter Chris Terrio on the scene, originally said to be coming in to do some rewrites and a polish but now officially named as the main writer on the project.

While I don’t expect Affleck to become “godfather” for DC projects or think he’ll take on a continuous role shepherding the DC universe, I do believe he is already taking an active role in the creative side and will continue to do so in the future. He’s an Oscar-winning screenwriter and producer, award-nominated director and actor, and there’s no doubt that the more input he has in these films the better they will be. That’s of course why Warner sought Affleck out to direct their previous attempt at bringing Justice League to the screen, and why they came back to him to convince him to participate in this newest superhero endeavor.

Chris Terrio won the Oscar for his script for Argo, and that plus the fact Affleck thinks so well of him means we should all be very happy to hear he’s involved in the project. I don’t know if Terrio will be tapped to write future DC movies, but at the moment I strongly suspect he will be — in particular, perhaps Justice League when the time comes for it to move into the story and scripting stages (either on his own, or maybe after Goyer develops a story). If Affleck also makes one or more solo Batman movies, then I’d not be surprised if Affleck works with Terrio on the screenplay for that project. This is speculation, but based on what we’ve heard officially and what I’ve heard behind the scenes, there’s a good chance Terrio will be involved in one or more of those projects when they take shape.

What we have here is a Batman vs. Superman movie written by an Oscar-winning screenwriter, starring an Oscar-winning filmmaker and screenwriter, with a growing cast of other Oscar-nominated and winning performers, from a visionary director. Snyder has had more control from the start, including development of the story and characters (something I’ve advocated since he was first announced as director of Man of Steel). Affleck will bring his enormous filmmaking talents to bear on shaping characters and probably story as well (something I’ve wanted for Batman, since I began endorsing Affleck last year to take over the Batman franchise). And Terrio will use Goyer’s original script as a template on which to write his own screenplay. Warner will want to keep most of the focus on this group on creative talents, to help give the film its own new identity and send the clear message that they’re very serious about doing whatever is necessary for this project to work and to be it as good as it can be.

With potentially billions of box office dollars on the line here, and with a budget surely in excess of $200 million, Warner looked at what worked and didn’t work with Man of Steel, and decided that some rebranding was in order, including a need to send a message that the future of DC movies wasn’t going to be rooted to the past, and was instead restructuring and moving ahead with a new public image. Friday’s statement sends that message, signaling the “changing of the guard” and getting ahead of previous weeks of rumors and negative stories arising after the announcement the release date had been pushed back from summer 2015 to summer 2016. If the delay and subsequent silence gave the impression of a troubled production, the newest announcement sent the message loud and clear of a production with a firm sense of direction. The delay no longer suggests problems, but rather competence — regardless of whether things were or were not previously off track or suffering from friction or problems.

We saw the first stages of rebranding with Friday’s announcement. No doubt, we’ll see more in the months to come as production gets underway in Detroit and as the details of future projects take shape.

You miss the point. Saying Lex is a poor challenge for Superman in one breath while saying Batman is a challenge for him in another makes you a hypocrite. The big difference between Luthor and Batman is ethics and ego, and that's about it. Even then, there isn't a wide chasm between their egos because Batman himself has been shown to have a large ego of his own. It's just not as big as Luthor's.

And making Luthor Superman's regular enemy is a perfect match, because Luthor presents conflicts that Superman can't just punch away. That's one of the criticisms I see of Superman all the time, that he just beats conflict into submission with his fists, and yet when he's presented with challenges where he can't rely solely on his physical powers, people bitch that there's not enough fighting going on.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Superman hate is full of hypocrisy. Too much fighting, not enough fighting. Too dark, not dark enough. Too morally "perfect", too morally ambiguous. The biggest problem with Superman is that a ton of people have been fooled into believing that there's something wrong with him that needs fixing.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Horror Sober

You miss the point. Saying Lex is a poor challenge for Superman in one breath while saying Batman is a challenge for him in another makes you a hypocrite. The big difference between Luthor and Batman is ethics and ego, and that's about it. Even then, there isn't a wide chasm between their egos because Batman himself has been shown to have a large ego of his own. It's just not as big as Luthor's.

And making Luthor Superman's regular enemy is a perfect match, because Luthor presents conflicts that Superman can't just punch away. That's one of the criticisms I see of Superman all the time, that he just beats conflict into submission with his fists, and yet when he's presented with challenges where he can't rely solely on his physical powers, people bitch that there's not enough fighting going on.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Superman hate is full of hypocrisy. Too much fighting, not enough fighting. Too dark, not dark enough. Too morally "perfect", too morally ambiguous. The biggest problem with Superman is that a ton of people have been fooled into believing that there's something wrong with him that needs fixing.

This is hilarious!
What is there with Luthor that Supes can't punch away??

Ok lets talk sales here. Luthor is a name that cannot sell on it's own without being attached to Superman's name. You cannot give Luthor his own solo movie without Superman in it because nobody would watch it! Luthor cannot have his own tv series without Superman in it either. Because again, nobody would buy it. At one point DC did try to give Luthor his own comic book spin but it was a one-shot and pretty short lived because it didn't work out.

In other words, this is a very dispensable character. Nobody cares. Superman can punch Luther into a million pieces and people wouldn't care the slightest. People wanna see Doomsday or some bad mofo that equally match Supes!

Now Batman, Batman is a challenge that Superman cannot punch away. The Bat has a very big fanbase and the name even outsells the Superman brand. Batman doesn't need Superman to make his movies, toys, comics, tv shows, or video games sell! The character has become an Icon.
And lets not forget why people are so excited about the Man of Steel sequel. It's because everyone knows BATMAN will be in it! Again, thanks to the Batman brand.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Razor

This is hilarious!
What is there with Luthor that Supes can't punch away??

Ok lets talk sales here. Luthor is a name that cannot sell on it's own without being attached to Superman's name. You cannot give Luthor his own solo movie without Superman in it because nobody would watch it! Luthor cannot have his own tv series without Superman in it either. Because again, nobody would buy it. At one point DC did try to give Luthor his own comic book spin but it was a one-shot and pretty short lived because it didn't work out.

In other words, this is a very dispensable character. Nobody cares. Superman can punch Luther into a million pieces and people wouldn't care the slightest. People wanna see Doomsday or some bad mofo that equally match Supes!

Now Batman, Batman is a challenge that Superman cannot punch away. The Bat has a very big fanbase and the name even outsells the Superman brand. Batman doesn't need Superman to make his movies, toys, comics, tv shows, or video games sell! The character has become an Icon.
And lets not forget why people are so excited about the Man of Steel sequel. It's because everyone knows BATMAN will be in it! Again, thanks to the Batman brand.

See the difference now?

1) Superman cannot punch Luthor at all. He is a public figure usually in good standing, and he's a human being. He can't punch him into a million pieces because, as it turns out, people would care a lot if a super-powerful alien beat a presumably innocent man to death. For a little while, Luthor was the President of the United States. Do you honestly think he could just waltz into the White House and kill him, and that would solve all his problems? Do you apply any thinking at all to this, or do you just foam at the mouth whenever you see anything to do with Superman?

2) Why the hell are you talking about brands and TV shows and crap like that? That's...not even relevant a little bit. You're applying real world context to the characters within the context of their world and their story. Do you have any idea how stupid you're coming across right now? How hard it is for you to push such a clear and ignorant bias of yours?

3) If you honestly think Lex Luthor poses no threat to Superman, or to the rest of the world, you know absolutely nothing about the character. If you honestly think he will be the only villain in the film, you're an even bigger moron than I thought.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Horror Sober

1) Superman cannot punch Luthor at all. He is a public figure usually in good standing, and he's a human being. He can't punch him into a million pieces because, as it turns out, people would care a lot if a super-powerful alien beat a presumably innocent man to death. For a little while, Luthor was the President of the United States. Do you honestly think he could just waltz into the White House and kill him, and that would solve all his problems? Do you apply any thinking at all to this, or do you just foam at the mouth whenever you see anything to do with Superman?

2) Why the hell are you talking about brands and TV shows and crap like that? That's...not even relevant a little bit. You're applying real world context to the characters within the context of their world and their story. Do you have any idea how stupid you're coming across right now? How hard it is for you to push such a clear and ignorant bias of yours?

3) If you honestly think Lex Luthor poses no threat to Superman, or to the rest of the world, you know absolutely nothing about the character. If you honestly think he will be the only villain in the film, you're an even bigger moron than I thought.

Say WHAT??????

Just because Luther's a Public Figure/ President gives him immunity??

It took a mere human weakling to kill JFK. And Superman can't lay a finger on Lex Luther?? Just because he's a public figure?? This is the type of stupid **** in Superman comic books and I'm glad I don't read it!

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

In a late Friday night deal, Lionsgate emerged victorious over several other bidders to pick up The Breach, a package that has David Goyer attached to direct.

The package came together late last year when Goyer optioned the book and developed it independently with di Bonaventura but it only last week went to the studios. It drew interest from Warner Bros., Fox, Relativity and Millennium, but one reason Lionsgate nabbed it was by showing strong intent on fast-tracking the project.

Goyer, known for penning Warners’ recent DC-based tentpoles (Man of Steel was the latest) but who has been jonzeing to direct a movie since his 2009 thriller The Unborn, is writing the script for Constantine, the DC hero being developed as a TV pilot for NBC. He is repped by WME and Bloom Hergott.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Superman/Batman will as it looks right now get a battle with Captain America at the box office on May 6th 2015, cause that's the day Captain America 3 is scheduled to premiere. May 6th is a Wednesday, so one thing's for sure. The following weekend will be a box office smash all over the world cause people are gonna go see both movies! The thing that they would steal audience from each other I don't believe for one bit, cause it's not like ordinary people only have $20 per month to go to the movies with and have to choose which movie they wanna see that month. People will go and see both of them. If not on the same weekend, then they'll see the other one on the following week.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by MrX

This vid is hilarious. I lost count of how many times he tried to portray human beings as inferior beings (Batman being a mere human) and that so-called Aliens or Cosmic entities were Superior (Superman and etc. being Supreme beings).

While I believe (scientifically) that there are Aliens in outer space, because the Universe is just so VAST that it’s hard to think there aren’t any other life forms out there somewhere, I do not however believe they are like Superman or that they’re in any way superior to us. The fact that they haven’t come to earth all this time tells us that they have not reached a level of technological advancement for them to be able to build space ships capable of travelling to us (here on earth). Likewise we have not reached that level of technological advancement either for us to be able to travel across solar systems to reach their planets. So I would say we’re pretty much on the same level as they are, with the likelihood of them being even less advanced than we are at this point.

Throughout history people create Gods in their Religions and these so-called Supreme Aliens in their Books and Movies. These are products of insecurity, ignorance, and inferiority complex. Why can’t Humans be Gods? Why can’t Humans be the Supreme Beings in the Universe?

You know I really liked the movie ENDER’S GAME. Because it shows us how things could go both ways. It shows us that humans could become capable of invading Alien planets and annihilating Alien populations.

We should live outside of the dark ages and accept the fact that Superman is the biggest lie in comic book history. I vote human. I vote Batman \m/

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

We should live outside of the dark ages and accept the fact that the biggest lie in comic book history is that Superman would ever lose a fight to Batman.

Fixed it for you. Not only do I love how you never even tried to refute a single point that video made, but I love how strongly you're coming off as Lex Luthor right about now.

Just get over it, dude. You don't have to like Superman but stop pretending yours is the one true way of the world. You have shown that you have a tremendous lack of understanding of just who and what Superman is and what he means to people. Your knowledge of Superman, at a percentage, is closer to 0% than anyone I've ever argued about Superman with.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Fixed it for you. Not only do I love how you never even tried to refute a single point that video made, but I love how strongly you're coming off as Lex Luthor right about now.

Just get over it, dude. You don't have to like Superman but stop pretending yours is the one true way of the world. You have shown that you have a tremendous lack of understanding of just who and what Superman is and what he means to people. Your knowledge of Superman, at a percentage, is closer to 0% than anyone I've ever argued about Superman with.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Razor

I loved Superman. In fact I was a Superman fan. Seriously.

But that was in the 1st grade.

Considering all the stuff I'm sure you're still a fan of now, I wouldn't use the "juvenile" card. I remember being a Transformers fan in the 1st grade but you don't see me saying that just to try and win an argument I already lost a while ago.

You have demonstrated that you know almost nothing about Superman, and understand nothing about Superman. I honestly believe that if I'm ever going to meet someone who knows less about Superman than you, it would have to be someone who has never heard of Superman. Like a newborn infant, or someone from a native South American jungle tribe. You trying to win any debate about Superman is as ridiculous as a toddler, still in diapers and barely speaking English, attempting to make a legitimate run for President of a country that doesn't exist anymore.

In short, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and thus based on the principle that an opinion is only as valid as it is informed, your opinion about Superman is completely worthless.

Now, you can do the responsible thing and euthanize your next Superman-related thought, sparing all of us smart people the waste of time it takes to read it, or you can keep going and continue to impress absolutely no one.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Here, let me put it more simple... watching Superman is like playing a game with cheats turned on. Theres unlimited power, invulnerability, flight, even resurrection from death for fĂ—Ă—Ă— sake!

Now you ask any video game player what he or she thinks about playing a game with cheats turned on. He would tell you that it takes any sort of challenge away which defeats the whole purpose of playing the game in the first place. Same thing with Superman movies. Now all you people with S on your chest keep wondering why Superman materials are making poorer sales compared to Batman. You know the answer. If you're so smart you'd concede.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Here, let me put it more simple... watching Superman is like playing a game with cheats turned on. Theres unlimited power, invulnerability, flight, even resurrection from death for fĂ—Ă—Ă— sake!

Now you ask any video game player what he or she thinks about playing a game with cheats turned on. He would tell you that it takes any sort of challenge away which defeats the whole purpose of playing the game in the first place. Same thing with Superman movies. Now all you people with S on your chest keep wondering why Superman materials are making poorer sales compared to Batman. You know the answer. If you're so smart you'd concede.

Oh, the overpowered argument. I've refuted this one before. See, once again, you are demonstrating a tremendous lack of knowledge and understanding in regards to the subject matter. Not only is your knowledge and understanding of Superman near 0%, but you actually seem to have a poor understanding of how the superhero genre works in general.

See, every single superhero, Superman included, has villains they fight and challenges they face. These villains and challenges are tailored to the hero's strengths and weaknesses. Does the hero usually always come out on top? Yeah. That's true of Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, all of them. Sometimes their victories are bittersweet, sometimes they're just sweet. In the end, however, the problems that they encounter are always such that they will need to struggle to overcome them.

Superman is no different. Let me give you a recent example. In the pages of recent issues of Action Comics, written by Greg Pak, Superman has been faced with a new enemy called the Ghost Soldier, as seen here. This guy is basically a soldier who has been assigned to assassinate Superman by a mysterious organization called Tower Command. He can render himself completely intangible, allowing him not only to phase through solid matter but to also sneak up on Superman. Stop and think about that for a second. With this ability, the Ghost Soldier was able to shove his knife into him while in an intangible state, and then render himself tangible again resulting in Superman suffering a deep stab wound. Again, stop and think about that.

Now, the storyline in which the Ghost Soldier appears is not so simple as an assassination mission. Earlier in the story, Lana Lang was taking part in some excavation or mine or something in Venezuela and they unearthed a huge blue monster. Superman arrived to help get the workers out of there and tried to stop it, but he realized the creature's roars and cries were actually a form of language, and that the creature was intelligent. Missiles suddenly bombard the creature, and in pain it continues its rampage. That's when the Ghost Soldier shows up and stabs Superman. Thinking fast, Superman slows the Ghost Soldier down with heat vision and freezing breath and picks up the monster, pretending to throw it into the sun when in fact he has taken it home to the Fortress of Solitude to study it, convinced that it may actually be friendly under less frightening circumstances. At the Fortress, the monster shapeshifts into a blue-skinned humanoid child.

This sets in motion a series of events in which Superman and Lana travel to a subterranean society, encounter a species of adorable little creatures that painfully transform into nightmarish monsters when exposed to sunlight, and deal with Tower Command and the Ghost Soldier who are intent on not only killing Superman but on eradicating the creatures he has discovered. Superman is faced with the challenge of saving the creatures, who attack others out of fear and confusion and pain, and from stopping a group of unmarked military planes carrying a heavy payload from killing everyone and everything in the area.

Superman is faced with the challenge of protecting a race of creatures that are attacking when frightened and hurt, protecting his blue monster kid friend Baka, stopping the Ghost Soldier from killing them despite the danger posed to himself, and saving everyone, including a bunch of human onlookers, from Tower Command's forces.

It's a bittersweet victory. And that's just one example off the top of my head.

LIKE I SAID BEFORE, Superman is faced with challenges and enemies that are tailored to his strengths and weaknesses. The problems he is faced with are written in such a way that they do challenge him, despite all the powers and abilities he has.

But you wouldn't know that. Because you don't know shit about Superman. Not to mention you can't pull the "he's overpowered" argument with one breath and the "Batman would beat him" argument with another. Huge contradiction there.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Razor

Ah yes. Such as Lex Luthor, right?

Pfft!

(Adds fuel to fire) ;D

You should read more. I consider your disinterest in genuinely refuting my points a forfeit. So please, do everyone here a favor and STFU. You have made it crystal clear that you have no idea what you're talking about, and that you do not want to know what you're talking about, so your best course of action is simply to STFU. You know nothing about Superman, you understand nothing about Superman, your opinion is worthless, and your contribution to any Superman-related discussion is worthless.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Horror Sober

You should read more. I consider your disinterest in genuinely refuting my points a forfeit. So please, do everyone here a favor and STFU. You have made it crystal clear that you have no idea what you're talking about, and that you do not want to know what you're talking about, so your best course of action is simply to STFU. You know nothing about Superman, you understand nothing about Superman, your opinion is worthless, and your contribution to any Superman-related discussion is worthless.

Easy there Krypto. The fun is just about getting started.

I have refuted your points several times already. They're just scattered in my various posts. So you should read. But if you have to know my TOP 10 list of reasons why I think Batman beats Superman... here I'll let you have them. You asked for it now you're getting it.

(Outside the context of their fictional world):

10. Batman first appeared in 1939, while Superman in 1938. This means that Superman had a one year jumpstart advantage over Batman. And yet...

9. Batman is more popular than Superman today.

8. And because Batman is more popular than Superman, he is generating the bigger sales for DC.

(Inside the context of their fictional world):

7. Batman has the better design of the two. And is...

6. A Billionaire.

5. Batman's other more "powerful" comic book incarnations (eg. Green Lantern Bruce Wayne, the Vampire Batman, FrankenBat) can give Superman a run for his money!
Thanks to the writers who have been kind to Superman, they've only pitted him against a "human" Batman in their comic book duels!

4. Batman has a whole wealth of different colored Krypronites he secretly keeps. Including the very rare Gold Kryptonite which can permanently remove the powers of Kryptonians it comes into contact with! (Ref. Superman/Batman: The Search for Kryptonites)

3. One of Batman's modern love interests is Wonder Woman (Ref. Blackest Night: Wonder Woman #2). Not that Batman wants to ask for an outside help when battling Superman, but WW would come to help voluntarily if the odds are not looking good for Batman. And we know WW is not an easy opponent.

2. Batman is an ideal. It is larger than a character. Superman has only Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, and occasionally Supergirl. Weak.
Batman has Nightwing, Red Robin, Alfred, Batgirl, Catwoman, The Birds of Prey, Huntress, The Outsiders, Hawkfire, Bluebird, Batman Incorporated, The Sons of Batman -- all working alongside him in rotation and fighting for what the BAT stands for.

1. You admitted yourself that Lex Luthor poses problems Superman cannot solve. Well Bruce Wayne is basically a "Luthor" but with ninja training and a bat custume. You can't say Luthor is difficult for Superman and then say Batman is easy work for Superman because that's contradictory.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Allow me to examine your points and I will counterpoint where I can. But lets keep the Debate Clean.

Originally Posted by Razor

10. Batman first appeared in 1939, while Superman in 1938. This means that Superman had a one year jumpstart advantage over Batman. And yet...

Yes, and without Superman there wouldn't be a Batman. Superman is the First Superhero and got everything started for future superheros.

Originally Posted by Razor

9. Batman is more popular than Superman today.

He's certainly the most commercialized DC Character. As far as years of Popularity I'd have to say Superman has the Most years. Batman didn't become Super popular until the Tim Burton Batman movie in 1989.

Originally Posted by Razor

8. And because Batman is more popular than Superman, he is generating the bigger sales for DC.

No argument there.

Originally Posted by Razor

7. Batman has the better design of the two. And is...

I don't think that the designs are better, one costume is meant for the day, while the other the night. At least they didn't give Superman Nipples like in the Batman and Robin movie.

Originally Posted by Razor

6. A Billionaire.

That's not necessarily make him better. It just means he's got the money to build his gadgets.

Originally Posted by Razor

5. Batman's other more "powerful" comic book incarnations (eg. Green Lantern Bruce Wayne, the Vampire Batman, FrankenBat) can give Superman a run for his money!

I don't think so. None of those incarnations could come close to Superman's power level. Maybe Green lantern Batman but that's a BIG maybe as he's taken out Green Lanterns.

Originally Posted by Razor

Thanks to the writers who have been kind to Superman, they've only pitted him against a "human" Batman in their comic book duels!

Well, Batman is Human. Last I checked.

Originally Posted by Razor

4. Batman has a whole wealth of different colored Krypronites he secretly keeps. Including the very rare Gold Kryptonite which can permanently remove the powers of Kryptonians it comes into contact with! (Ref. Superman/Batman: The Search for Kryptonite)

Superman would probably be aware of this and attack from a distance, which he can.

Originally Posted by Razor

3. One of Batman's modern love interests is Wonder Woman (Ref. Blackest Night: Wonder Woman #2). Not that Batman wants to ask for an outside help when battling Superman, but WW would come to help voluntarily if the odds are not looking good for Batman. And we know WW is not an easy opponent.

2. Batman is an ideal. It is larger than a character. Superman has only Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, and occasionally Supergirl. Weak.
Batman has Nightwing, Red Robin, Alfred, Batgirl, Catwoman, The Birds of Prey, Huntress, The Outsiders, Hawkfire, Bluebird, Batman Incorporated, The Sons of Batman -- all working alongside him in rotation and fighting for what the BAT stands for.

And Superman isn't an Ideal? I beg to differ. Superman has a lot more allies than just Jimmy, Lois, and supergirl. There's also Superboy, Steel (DC's Answer to Iron Man), The Eradicator, and probably a few more that I can't recall right now.

Originally Posted by Razor

1. You admitted yourself that Lex Luthor poses problems Superman cannot solve. Well Bruce Wayne is basically a "Luthor" but with ninja training and a bat custume. You can't say Luthor is difficult for Superman and then say Batman is easy work for Superman because that's contradictory.

Actually, no. Luthor is not a Bruce Wayne. One is Power Hungry while the other is not. As far as intelligence goes, They are at the same level. Both would give Superman a hard time, but if Superman didn't have any morels against killing, there would be no contest.

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them."
-John Wayne (The Shootist)

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

10. Batman first appeared in 1939, while Superman in 1938. This means that Superman had a one year jumpstart advantage over Batman. And yet...

That's not even a reason for anything. That's just an observation.

9. Batman is more popular than Superman today.

And Twilight got more reviews on Amazon than Let The Right One In so what's your point? Popularity is not quality.

8. And because Batman is more popular than Superman, he is generating the bigger sales for DC.

How is this a point? Aren't you already implying that with your previous point? It's very telling that you need to inflate your list like this.

7. Batman has the better design of the two. And is...

And most of Batman's design comes from Superman's design. Batman is, for all intents and purposes, Superman + Dracula. Not only that, but that point is not in the context of their fictional world anyway. Use your brain.

6. A Billionaire.

And as we all know, corporate billionaires are a cherished and celebrated group of people in modern American society. If anything that point argues against your case because it shows that despite being human, Batman is more unrelatable because he carries on an old tradition of wealthy aristocratic heroes, as opposed to Superman who has, since his inception, represented the common man and fought for the oppressed.

5. Batman's other more "powerful" comic book incarnations (eg. Green Lantern Bruce Wayne, the Vampire Batman, FrankenBat) can give Superman a run for his money!

Except Superman has defeated Green Lanterns before, demonstrating an ability to break their constructs. FrankenBat wouldn't be much of a challenge considering Superman has been able handle the likes of Solomon Grundy easily enough, not to mention Doomsday. As for Vampire Batman, you seem to forget that Superman gets his powers from solar radiation. One punch and Vampire Batman is toast.

Thanks to the writers who have been kind to Superman, they've only pitted him against a "human" Batman in their comic book duels!

That's because Batman is human. Though actually, Superman was able to take down a Batman who had been possessed by the Kryptonite Man, rendering his entire body into one big living Kryptonite organism. So there's that.

4. Batman has a whole wealth of different colored Krypronites he secretly keeps. Including the very rare Gold Kryptonite which can permanently remove the powers of Kryptonians it comes into contact with! (Ref. Superman/Batman: The Search for Kryptonites)

You do realize that series was very loose in terms of continuity, right? Not to mention, again, Superman was able to defeat a Batman who was made of Green K. Superman has been exposed to all kinds of Kryptonite and still made it out on top. Because he's Superman. He's the hero of the story. You still don't get how superhero stories work do you? Not to mention, as MrX pointed out, Superman can attack from a distance with ease.

3. One of Batman's modern love interests is Wonder Woman (Ref. Blackest Night: Wonder Woman #2). Not that Batman wants to ask for an outside help when battling Superman, but WW would come to help voluntarily if the odds are not looking good for Batman. And we know WW is not an easy opponent.

That's funny, because Wonder Woman and Superman are officially a couple right now. Also, Wonder Woman did show up to help once when Superman nearly killed Batman while under a form of mind control. And in the end, Wonder Woman didn't save him by beating Superman in a fight. She had to snap the neck of the guy who was controlling him. Wonder Woman #219 and The OMAC Project #4.

2. Batman is an ideal. It is larger than a character. Superman has only Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, and occasionally Supergirl. Weak.
Batman has Nightwing, Red Robin, Alfred, Batgirl, Catwoman, The Birds of Prey, Huntress, The Outsiders, Hawkfire, Bluebird, Batman Incorporated, The Sons of Batman -- all working alongside him in rotation and fighting for what the BAT stands for.

Batman is an ideal, sure. So is Superman. Their sense of morality is very similar actually. As for the rest of this point, all you're saying is that Batman has a team. Big whoop. Again, this is arguably a point against your case. Superman would never endanger the life of a child by drafting them into an impossible war on crime. Batman has done it how many times now, despite the deaths of at least three Robins on my count, the most recent of which being his own son?

1. You admitted yourself that Lex Luthor poses problems Superman cannot solve. Well Bruce Wayne is basically a "Luthor" but with ninja training and a bat custume. You can't say Luthor is difficult for Superman and then say Batman is easy work for Superman because that's contradictory.

Luthor is difficult for Superman because Luthor crosses moral and ethical lines that Batman does not cross. Luthor is responsible for the deaths of many people and frequently puts innocent lives at risk. Batman doesn't, except for all the children he's gotten killed over the years as I mentioned before.

For instance, in All-Star Superman, Lex Luthor sent a genetically-modified suicide bomber on a mission to sabotage the first manned mission to the sun. Batman wouldn't do that. Of course Superman showed up to rescue them, but being in such close proximity to the sun resulted in two side effects. One, Superman was far more powerful than ever before, and two, it was starting to kill him. At least it seemed that way. I won't spoil what happens at the end, but again, these are things Batman would never do. And quite frankly, Luthor is much smarter than Batman.

And while Luthor does indeed pose huge challenges to Superman, let's not forget that Superman does inevitably overcome the obstacles and defeat Luthor in the end. Because, again, these are superhero stories, and Superman is the superhero, thus that is what is bound to happen. It may be sweet, or bittersweet, and sometimes even just bitter, but Superman will always triumph over Luthor because "duh".

And as I'm sure I've said before, Batman has never truly defeated Superman in an in-continuity fight. Or you could just, I dunno, watch that video again and this time pay attention.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

At least Batman didn't murder any real world kids.

Now Superman -- you have no idea how many kids jumped to their deaths from rooftops because they thought they could 'fly' like their hero! That's what Superman books do to kids. You don't believe me? Google it.

Now people -- real world people, dream of becoming billionaires, like Bruce Wayne. Not blue spandex and red underwears!

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Razor

At least Batman didn't murder any real world kids.

Now Superman -- you have no idea how many kids jumped to their deaths from rooftops because they thought they could 'fly' like their hero! That's what Superman books do to kids. You don't believe me? Google it.

Now people -- real world people, dream of becoming billionaires, like Bruce Wayne. Not blue spandex and red underwears!

Superman is a fictional character. Blaming Superman for their deaths is no better than blaming violent video games for school shootings. If a child does something irrational, then other factors, such as the child's state of mind and the ability or lack thereof of the parents to do their jobs as parents and actually provide guidance, support, and effective discipline when necessary, are a much more likely cause for that irrational behavior.

Of course, if people are not properly conditioned out of their irrationality, they can behave irrationally as adults. Like the guy who shot a bunch of people at a screening of The Dark Knight Rises. Are you going to suggest like everyone else that the Joker made him shoot those people? Or are you going to stop grasping for straws and nonsensical arguments?

Also, I'd like you to provide ten documented cases in which that actually happened, regarding children jumping off of roofs to their deaths having been inspired by Superman. I don't mean hearsay or urban myth. I want names, news reports, factual information. You suggest there's quite a few cases of it, so it shouldn't be hard.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Horror Sober

Also, I'd like you to provide ten documented cases in which that actually happened, regarding children jumping off of roofs to their deaths having been inspired by Superman. I don't mean hearsay or urban myth. I want names, news reports, factual information. You suggest there's quite a few cases of it, so it shouldn't be hard.

Of course I would not be able to give you all the victims’ names as some of the news have the names blocked out (perhaps due to their family’s wish for privacy).

And yes these things happen all over the world. Also, other news reports of such cases are in print media (newspapers, magazine, etc) so I cannot show you links to those articles. But I assure you I have read many cases over the years while growing up (usually in the newspapers). And when I spent a few years in the Middle East there was also a case of an Arab boy jumping off a tall establishment trying to imitate Superman. So this is a global problem, thanks to Superman.

And yes these things happen all over the world. Also, other news reports of such cases are in print media (newspapers, magazine, etc) so I cannot show you links to those articles. But I assure you I have read many cases over the years while growing up (usually in the newspapers). And when I spent a few years in the Middle East there was also a case of an Arab boy jumping off a tall establishment trying to imitate Superman. So this is a global problem, thanks to Superman.

1) That's two. Eight more, please.
2) Neither article gives proof of any kind that Superman was actually linked to those cases. It is merely conjecture on the author's part.
3) If Batman is so much more popular as you say he is, then how do you know they weren't trying to imitate him? After all he's been known to jump off of rooftops just as much, and several times throughout Batman's popular cinematic endeavors he has used his cape to glide around.
4) Please don't cherry-pick the parts of my posts you like and ignore the rest. I already destroyed the validity of this argument.

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman Movie)

Originally Posted by Horror Sober

Neither article gives proof of any kind that Superman was actually linked to those cases. It is merely conjecture on the author's part.

If Batman is so much more popular as you say he is, then how do you know they weren't trying to imitate him? After all he's been known to jump off of rooftops just as much, and several times throughout Batman's popular cinematic endeavors he has used his cape to glide around.