With all the different vaccination and worming protocols, people supplementing cattle with feed and minerals have we have taken the hardiness out of the cattle breeds? We have definitely made it easy for cattle to be able to survive and reproduce even if their not hardy. Sometimes I feel we're our own worst enemy.

Sometimes it seems like the more folks do for their cows, the more problems they have. And it doesn't matter what breed of cow they happen to be. A cow is a long way from being a dog, and we don't give our dogs anywhere near the shots we give our cows.

True Grit Farms wrote:Sometimes it seems like the more folks do for their cows, the more problems they have. And it doesn't matter what breed of cow they happen to be. A cow is a long way from being a dog, and we don't give our dogs anywhere near the shots we give our cows.

I am proactive managing my herd - in fact - probably in the top 10 percentile. What I don't see that you suggest is that it causes "more problems". Vince, my cows are about as problem free as is humanly or should I say cowly possible.

True Grit Farms wrote:Sometimes it seems like the more folks do for their cows, the more problems they have. And it doesn't matter what breed of cow they happen to be. A cow is a long way from being a dog, and we don't give our dogs anywhere near the shots we give our cows.

I agree to some point, but maybe they just realize they have a problem because of intensive management and the guy who just lets them be, doesn't have problems because he can't see them... As far as your point about dogs, I know some registered dog breeders that do way more testing and vaccinating than I could possibly manage to give my cattle. My heelers on the other hand, eat cow shyt and dead things, and get wormed with Valbazen and poured with Ultra boss (they get a rabies vaccination only because the county says they must!).

True Grit Farms wrote:Sometimes it seems like the more folks do for their cows, the more problems they have. And it doesn't matter what breed of cow they happen to be. A cow is a long way from being a dog, and we don't give our dogs anywhere near the shots we give our cows.

I agree to some point, but maybe they just realize they have a problem because of intensive management and the guy who just lets them be, doesn't have problems because he can't see them... As far as your point about dogs, I know some registered dog breeders that do way more testing and vaccinating than I could possibly manage to give my cattle. My heelers on the other hand, eat cow shyt and dead things, and get wormed with Valbazen and poured with Ultra boss (they get a rabies vaccination only because the county says they must!).

I was thinking the same thing on dogs. My dogs get an 8 way vaccine plus rabies. In fact, the kennels here require proof of vaccination before they will board your dog. They also have to be wormed and tick and flea treated. Personally, I also treat for heart worm. Dogs are just as pampered as cows if not more.

The management and handling I'm sure has attributed to the loss of hardiness. But I blame more on the infusion of outside blood. You can still find Herefords that are as hardy as ever. But they tend to be just like the Angus and mainly in the older bloodlines that I consider more pure. You can see it in a herd if you do some observation. Another thing that I feel attributes to it is the rapid turn over of generations. I will be sorting cows to sell this weekend. All 14 y/o or older and all but 6 have a calf on them and I weaned theirs about 5 weeks ago. I was talking to one of the PB breeders that turns over generations fast and he was trying to explain to me why it wasn't good management to keep cows that long. They run with the others and receive no special treatment. If they start having trouble making it we sell them. I have a few Brangus cows in the group that look 9 y/o that will likely stay another year. IMO when you are turning over generations fast you lose hardiness, longtivity and fertility. I keep all the good heifers out of the older cows as I feel they will likely have the mentioned traits. So IMO there is many factors that attribute to this than just the one mentioned.

Dogs are bred to have problems,.. you look at the noses on these new dogs? What about the hips on Shepherds? And 90% of it is because of the show scene.. Probably a little of the same with cows.. what cow would ever have a full coat of hair in the summer?

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence-Christopher Hitchens

We subject them to very intensive and stressfull artificial conditions when they enter feedlots so I guess a bit of assistance with vaccinations is needed. Also in the north of your continent many are in lots over winter. It is a bit like kids in childcare, disease is rife.

Another aspect I have often thought about, with artificial breeding, are we breeding cattle that will be reluctant to breed naturally?????

I would say the opposite in some cases. Our cattle winter graze and bale graze here in Minnesota. As you know it can get down to -40 F and snow can get deep. They calve out in the fields and I have never had a problem with scours. My father-in-law would calve his beef cows in a pen in a barn. Many would keep cows in a dry lot all winter and haul every bit of feed to them. I do believe a new generation is questioning why do this. I do feel that economics among other thing is pushing for reduced costs and in fact in many cases a hardier animal. Also on a side note I observed that some of the "new" breeds came from Europe where they were treated more like dairy cows. As they were bred in this country the generations became hardier as they were treated as beef animals. Just my opinion, farmguy.

There's a lot of time and money spent on pastures, water, and minerals to keep our cattle healthy. So that me got thinking about people, those that eat right and live right don't hardly get sick. So why can't a cow be the same under ideal conditions? We all know thin cows are the first to get sick and die in harsh conditions, don't usually breed back on time, or raise the nicest calf even if they've been properly vaccinated. I think proper nutrition is more important than vaccines if you want to have healthy cattle.

True Grit Farms wrote:There's a lot of time and money spent on pastures, water, and minerals to keep our cattle healthy. So that me got thinking about people, those that eat right and live right don't hardly get sick. So why can't a cow be the same under ideal conditions? We all know thin cows are the first to get sick and die in harsh conditions, don't usually breed back on time, or raise the nicest calf even if they've been properly vaccinated. I think proper nutrition is more important than vaccines if you want to have healthy cattle.

That is not a profound concept on nutrition. Not trying to be insulting but most know nutrition is the foundation of the pyramid.