Discussing: where did they put their change? OR did they have pockets?

where did they put their change? OR did they have pockets?

Yes, a strange question here, but I seem to have the impression that our friends who walked around in cloaks, leggings, and tunics did not necessarily have the convenience of pockets. I probably have this impression from various fanfic that I've read, so I thought it best to put the question out there before I commit to my own fanfic.

Where would a person stow away a bit of lembas or other thing that they wanted on them, readily available, but not in a pack?

thanks!

docmon

Re: where did they put their change? OR did they have pockets?

When I was recently visiting Gwynnyd, she showed me some SCA garb of hers, including a pouch that fastened to a belt. That seems like the best approach to me. I've also seem similar pouches that had a shoulder strap, like a small messenger bag/laptop computer case. That might work as well.

I did some searching on this to get you some pictures, and the best link I've found is

Now, these are all for men. The ladies' costumes I've seen all either were unbelted or had looser belts that wouldn't support a pouch. The best I can figure is that there would be a smaller, more delicate pouch, perhaps made of cloth rather than leather, that looped around the wrist.

One last point - it's very possible your lord wouldn't carry around his own money. If we're talking, say, Boromir in Minas Tirith, he probably has accounts everywhere that would bill him periodically. And servants to pick up whatever he needed, come to that - without being told by him ost of the time if they were competent.

Re: where did they put their change? OR did they have pockets?

Sorry that I'm too tired to interpret any of this, or even organize it, but here are all the quotes I could find from FoTR, Hobbit, or UT, searching for "wallet", "purse", "bag", or "pocket".

Hope this helps!

- Barbara, who just collapsed into a heap after being on her feet all afternoon and evening....

Then from a wallet under his tunic [Aldarion] took a jewel red like fire, upon a band of gold, and he pressed it into her hand.

Unfinished Tales, Part 2, Ch 2, Aldarion and Erendis

Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle-earth.

Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 1, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

Though it was a long journey, each of the Dúnedain carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days - not indeed the miruvor 30 or the lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten. No belt or wallet was among the gear discarded by Isildur.

Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 1, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields: The Sources of the Legend of Isildur's Death

On the march each man carried with him two days' provisions (other than the "need-wallet" mentioned in the text...; the rest, and other baggage, was carried by small sturdy horses....

At last behind a hidden door [in Orthanc] ... a steel closet was revealed. Maybe it had been intended to receive the Ring; but it was almost bare. In a casket on a high shelf two things were laid. One was a small case of gold, attached to a fine chain; it was empty, and bore no letter or token, but beyond all doubt it had once borne the Ring about Isildur's neck.

Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 1, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields: The Sources of the Legend of Isildur's Death

Putting his hand inside the breast of his jacket [Pippin] pulled out a little soft wallet on a string. 'I keep a treasure or two near my skin, as precious as Rings to me. Here's one: my old wooden pipe.

The Two Towers, LoTR Book 3, Ch 9, Flotsam and Jetsam

[Merry] produced a small leather bag full of tobacco.

The Two Towers, LoTR Book 3, Ch 9, Flotsam and Jetsam

Slinging the small bag which was all his luggage across his shoulders, the wizard leapt upon the horse's back

The Two Towers, LoTR Book 3, Ch 11, The Palantír

'But see here, Master Sandyman, I've a score to pay in this village, and don't you make it any longer with your jeering, or you'll foot a bill too big for your purse.'

The Return of the King, LoTR Book 6, Ch 8, The Scouring of the Shire

[Merry] might have been just another bag that Dernhelm was carrying.

The Return of the King, LoTR Book 5, Ch 5, The Ride of the Rohirrim

'Indeed they did not take everything. I've found my food-bag among some rags on the floor. They've rummaged it, of course. But I guess they disliked the very look and smell of the lembas, worse than Gollum did.

The Return of the King, LoTR Book 6, Ch 1, The Tower of Cirith Ungol

To Sam [Bilbo] gave a little bag of gold. 'Almost the last drop of the Smaug vintage,' he said. 'May come in useful, if you think of getting married, Sam.' Sam blushed.

The Return of the King, LoTR Book 6, Ch 5, Many Partings

Then Bilbo plucked up courage and put his little hand in William's enormous pocket. There was a purse in it, as big as a bag to Bilbo.

The Hobbit, Ch 2, Roast Mutton

'It's addressed plain enough,' said Mr. Butterbur, producing a letter from his pocket, and reading out the address slowly and proudly (he valued his reputation as a lettered man)....

The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 1, Ch 10, Strider

Nár stooped to take the head, but the voice of Azog said:

'Drop it! Be off! Here's your fee, beggar-beard.' A small bag struck him. It held a few coins of little worth.

...

When at last the battle was won the Dwarves that were left gathered in Azanulbizar. They took the head of Azog and thrust into its mouth the purse of small money, and then they set it on a stake.

The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Durin's Folk

Re: where did they put their change? OR did they have pockets?

I learned, to my surprise, that pockets such as we know them did not come around until quite a bit later. 1700's? Later? Earlier? I can't remember exactly and I can't find my reference to it. Before that pockets were not attached to the garment itself, but were cloth wallets on a string that could be tied around the waist beneath the wearer's clothes and were accessed through a slit in the outer garments.

I always wondered how Lucy Lockett could have lost her pocket without also wandering around rather under-clothed.. but, well, now it seems much more plausible.

As far as pockets in Middle earth go, I always assumed that they were along the lines of mantle clocks and pocket handkerchiefs: peculiar to Edwardian-based Hobbit culture but not necessarily part of the wider world.

Re: where did they put their change? OR did they have pockets?

I always wondered how Lucy Lockett could have lost her pocket without also wandering around rather under-clothed.. but, well, now it seems much more plausible.

I also believe that Lucy's 'pocket' was not actually integral to her clothing. I seem to remember in my nursery-rhyme book the illustration showed Kitty Fisher holding up a small sack-like purse. This would also explain how who ever emptied it- for reasons unknown- could have tied a ribbon round it.

I suspect hobbits quite possibly did have integral pockets, though, that the ring was so often stuffed into- just because they have so many other things that one would assume were a long way off for the cultures of men.

And now for something you may not wish to know- when hose were made with a separate codpiece (that was to say, the hose had simply a hole at the crotch and the wearer's modesty was preserved by a pouch of a separate piece of fabric- often contasting, too), the fabric of said codpiece was sometimes doubled to make it into a purse on the outside. You may not wish to know that, though, next time a man from the medieval period gives you a hadful of slightly warm change.

Re: where did they put their change? OR did they have pockets?

the fabric of said codpiece was sometimes doubled to make it into a purse on the outside

Ach, aye! The traditional kilt coming to mid-thigh, the sporran (a leather pouch hanging directly in front of the groin) not only carried various bits and bobs, but was said to (barely) preserve modesty.