Hopefully this isn’t too close to the main article Keith wrote but I think it’s a big enough subplot and it would become congested amongst the debate over the WMSC’s decision.

Ever since the Schumacher years, Ferrari have tainted themselves with the way they run their campaign for the world championship. They’ve had a clear #1 policy, switched their drivers around numerous times, sometimes even for the benefit of just one point and never been apologetic for treating the fans like muppets, without whom there’d be precious little of those millions and millions of dollars they get from the sport.

When Schumacher left, it seemed that it was his contagion and not Ferrari’s. Aside from fixing Massa’s pit-stop strategy (to a slower one) at Interlagos in 2007 they’ve had no direct interference with the race result (and even then, Massa would have been happy to slow down if it had been necessary). That and China 2008 were mostly understood and accepted by F1 fans.

And then, no matter what you think of Hockenheim 2010, it went back to its old ways of interfering with a result. There may have been far more point to it than in Austria 2002, but the principle was the same: for the sake of a few points they fixed a race which was going to have a heartening end (Barrichello beating Schumacher fair and square and Massa’s recovery from his crash). And who’s fault, according to Ferrari? Ours. We’re too stupid to appreciate what really matters. We’re too stupid, in fact, to even tell that they “didn’t” interfere this time.

So basically, my question is: how long and what would Ferrari have to do before it can legitimately present itself as a sporting team befitting its history and legacy? And is the presence of Alonso part of the problem, or the problem itself?

Personally I think it won’t happen until there’s a fundamental change in policy, including the personnel at the helm, and certainly not whilst Alonso’s around.

“So basically, my question is: how long and what would Ferrari have to do before it can legitimately present itself as a sporting team befitting its history and legacy? And is the presence of Alonso part of the problem, or the problem itself?”

It’s an image now stuck with Ferrari no matter what and may only be forgotten in 100 year if another team adopts the policy.

Schumi helped to bring Ferrari their most successful period but it wasn’t exactly seen as Ferrari’s most sporting time. It seemed Rubens could fight with Michael but just that Michael was quicker and that was deemed acceptable which didn’t have a good feel about it but it wasn’t horrendous but then it became clear that Rubens couldn’t ever really challenge at all and we got Austria.

This will have brought back memories but if Massa is allowed to fight in the future and doesn’t get this call early again then it won’t be as big as disaster as it seems.

The very fact there’s a thread about this from a respectable user shows the image of Ferrari as a sporting side has been severely damaged through the years.

Yes, Alonso doesn’t help matters when it comes to image. He’s forever tainted by Mclaren and then (even though he was found innocent of any wrong doing and in the dark) he seemingly had a teammate who was a clear number 2 all of the time but then willing to crash to help him win. Alonso also has this past example against him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH9nMtJmx6Q

Alonso doesn’t have the best image in the world so cynics would say he’s a perfect fit for Ferrari, Dick Dastardly in the desperate squad. I don’t mean offence or to have a go at anyone there at all I was just saying that at the end that’s the worst image whereas at best, he’s misunderstood and been in the wrong place at the wrong time and Ferrari had no choice but to favour Michael because he was worlds ahead of Rubens (I’m somewhere in the middle).

This situation also seems worse in some ways because people had a renewed hope in the nicer Ferrari. Stefano brought a new warmth it seemed and then they have lovely chaps like Rob and Felipe. It was refreshing and made them seem well…nice. Then Stefano blew it and didn’t have the guts to give Felipe the message himself which seemed so much more cruel as at least Todt took control before. That badly hurt the image too when it was Rob who had to deliver the message and he is one of the most popular people in F1 which is quite astonishing given he doesn’t drive the cars.

I do think the desperation to win went too far at Germany and I’ve never been comfortable with #1 and #2 drivers at all but the fact that not many were surprised at Germany, there have been so many cases of this and ‘Ferrari International Assistance’ was regularly uttered after the ruling shows Ferrari have little sporting credibility at times.

Oh and Luca and the Horse Whisperer don’t help things although I do find them downright hilarious.

I think Hockenheim was ugly but it was born out of desperation to get back in the title race more than out of the same kind of no.1 treatment Schumacher had. Schumacher had priority in testing, T-car set up and every aspect of the team was geared to his success.

Although its clear that Alonso will be treated as lead driver for the remainder of the season, as Kimi was afer Monza 2007 or Massa after Spa 2008 (in both cases their team mate was still mathematically in the title race) in the early part of the season there was no special treatment for Alonso, he was/is just faster.

I think the comparison with Austria 2002 isn’t really fair, since in 2002 Rubens was Schumacher’s only challenger in a year when Ferrari were completely dominant, where as this year Ferrari were outsiders for the title and Massa was out of the hunt meaning there were under a lot of pressure to maximise the points for their one WDC hope. Also in Austria Rubens had been faster and beaten Schumacher fair and square where as although Massa drove well in front of Alonso he was outqualified by 0.5s, slower in practice and slower in the race and only got in front because Vettel blocked Alonso off the start.

I can see why people dislike Ferrari, I loathed Ferrari during the Schumacher years and thought they often went beyond what was acceptable but Austria 2002 was so unpalatble because of the way it was done and the way it was so uneccessary. The principle of team orders wasn’t the problem I think its unfair to compare the two incidents as like for like.

I think Ferrari have become much more open since the end of 2006 and that makes them still much more likable. The problem is though is often people are taking their preconceptions of Ferrari and Alonso (the team/driver combo everyone loves to hate) and making Hockenheim out to be worse than it was. The are a lot of people who can’t wait to drag write a load of “same old Ferrari always cheating” articles

I think that the personnel at Ferrari have ensured you can only love the team, or loathe them. Personally I choose to sit on the fence (yes, that is very hypocritical) and of course this scandal hasn’t helped their PR, but I believe the problem lies deeper than that.

I highly doubt any Ferrari fan was so repulsed by the Hockenheim race that they discontinued their support for them, rather, they would have done so long before this particular instance. What I am trying to say is that Ferrari’s team orders aren’t the reason they are perhaps the most analysed and controversial team. Anything they do seems to become a scandal where it wouldn’t for any other team. (By the way; I am by no means a Ferrari fan!)

“So basically, my question is: how long and what would Ferrari have to do before it can legitimately present itself as a sporting team befitting its history and legacy?”

Well, first we have to talk about the history of Ferrari itself. I’m young, but basing my opinion on the documentaries about the ‘old days’ of F1, you can’t say that Ferrari have ever based their image on simpathy. Ferrari is not Minardi.

The Old Man himself wasn’t particularly pleasant (although very warm-hearted), he was a tough man with the main idea of running a successful team. If you win, your brand is stronger and you sell more cars, and I don’t think Ferrari customers care much about sportmanship.

That’s the reason why he always wanted a #1 and a #2 driver, to enhance the chances of victory for the TEAM. A lot of people say that there is also the WCC for the teams, but generally it’s considered nothing more than a consolation prize.

I know I put it very rough and it may seem i’m a supporter of team orders. On the contrary, i’d like to see more in-team battles because they spice up the championship, but my name isn’t Domenicali and i don’t have to manage a team worth some hundreds of millions of euros, and i know that the 90% of Ferrari supporters prefer a WDC victory than an interesting fight.

“And is the presence of Alonso part of the problem, or the problem itself?”

Alonso isn’t the most pleasant person in the paddock, for sure, but not the direct problem. Ferrari already wanted a #1 driver after the disappointing Raikkonen (i believe they never thought Massa could be a real WDC contender before 08) and Santander wanted a first class team where their protége could have the maximum chance of victory, maybe also written on the contract.

This situation also seems worse in some ways because people had a renewed hope in the nicer Ferrari. Stefano brought a new warmth it seemed and then they have lovely chaps like Rob and Felipe. It was refreshing and made them seem well…nice. Then Stefano blew it and didn’t have the guts to give Felipe the message himself which seemed so much more cruel as at least Todt took control before. That badly hurt the image too when it was Rob who had to deliver the message and he is one of the most popular people in F1 which is quite astonishing given he doesn’t drive the cars.

If the adjective may be applied, that’s a lovely paragraph. I too thought Ferrari had changed, especially last year when there seemed to be genuine niceness between all the teams. The end of that hasn’t been Ferrari’s fault at all, but Ferrari’s about-turn and the way they did it was heartbreaking to say the least. After seeing Massa conduct himself so well on the podium at Interlagos in 2008 and then come back from that horror accident, to then see him treated as no more important than a cog in the engine was horrible.

Ichyes, in your first post you mention ‘since the Schumacher years’ implying that the team have been underhand or un-sporting. Schumacher left 5 years ago and I struggle to think of impropriety since (apart from Germany where they were nothing more than obvious). Other teams have been involved in: 1) the worst cheating scandal in F1 with a driver deliberately crashing. 2) a team involved in 3 consecutive years of breaking the rules. 3) The president of the FIA having a clear and public vendetta against a team boss while accusing others of being idiots. This season we have had a team boss accuse another team since the first race of having an illegal car even though it has proven not to be.

During the Schumacher era Ferrari did no more than invest 100% in one driver

(something Ron Dennis regrets to this day regarding the titles he could have won) . Ferrari never instructed at any point he should crash while racing against Hill or Villeneuve, that was down to the individual driver in the same way Mercedes did not instruct him to push Barrichello into the wall, that is and has always been his style as was many drivers in the past but because only fans of a certain age remember there actions.

How would most fans now look on teams breaking into other garages to steal parts to make the race or drivers called into the pits to give up their car for another driver? When T cars were still used and both cars were damaged in a 1st lap crash who do you think got into it?

I am a Ferrari fan and have been since 1970. One of the main reasons for this is that they have been the principal team that says what it feels (whether that is right or wrong) and refuses to be manipulated by others teams of FIA officials who have or are only concerned with self promotion. Even when they were without a title for 21 years they maintained this stance and I appreciate them for it.

I think the way they can do it is ugly, an there’s no way of getting round the fact that Hockenheim was ugly, especially considering Massa’s circumstances but Ferrari exist to win, it is the raison d’etre, they haven’t been like this for all of the championships existance, for instance the front engine cars, the long periods where they just fought themselves, but since Todt the mindset has been we exist to win now by any means necessary. An it gets ugly. I think Renault are very simular, though obviously less prestigous.

I think the mindset of the British teams, particularly Williams and McLaren was always go faster, fight everyone, an they’ve lost lots of championships becuase of it.

Now I personally have a problem with team orders, they go against the grain an they make me unhappy, I hope upon hope that the rule is improved not vanished, I think it’s got a lot to do with the quality of the competition this year, an the lack of no2 up till that point.

Ichyes, in your first post you mention ‘since the Schumacher years’ implying that the team have been underhand or un-sporting.

I meant that’s when the most notorious stuff started happening. Before that Ferrari were no better or worse than any other team. The Schumacher years took it to a new level, after which it looked like it was all behind them, but now we’ve seen something that harks back to the old days. Hence the question of whether it’s Alonso’s doing or not.

The rest of your post is quite diversionary. I’m not here to talk about what other teams have done, or that Ferrari aren’t as bad because other teams have done other things. Steph has already said it disappoints her as a Ferrari fan; you don’t seem to have addressed the issue of the impact of what your favoured team lying to the sporting authorities. Too uncomfortable, or does it just not bother you? Fair enough either way.

This weekend has made me thank god for the millionth time that I don’t support any F1 team, just the drivers.

An interesting discussion, and I’m glad it really hasn’t heated up too much!

I tend to agree with Rampante on a lot of his points.

I am not, and have never been a team supporter and am quite neutral to most of them. I am a driver supporter and have my favourites amongst different teams.

I always enjoy talking to my boss’s father as he is a big Ferrari supporter (he is Italian in his late 60’s, been watching the race since he was a child), and it’s interesting to get a perspective from someone who is such a strong team supporter. I was talking to him the day before the announcement and his view was that Ferrari were idiots for making it so obvious. The team order didn’t bother him at all, and that teams have been giving drivers orders forever and that Ferrari just made the mistake of making it obvious.

Then again I know his love of the team blinds him a bit and I guess, like football supporters, they just want their team to win no matter what. For example, when Raikkonen won the WDC he loved him, yet when he was in his final year he hated him, and the incident with him eating an icecream in shorts in pitlane infuriated him (I remember having a coffee with him the morning after, quite funny for me… “He just gave up! The race could have still continued!” etc etc).

I guess the point I’m trying to make is that people will always be blinded a bit by their support for their team.

For me personally, my view has not changed for Ferrari. Team orders do not usually bother me when it’s nearing the end of the season and there is one driver with an advantage. I was a big Raikkonen fan and watching him let Massa pass in 2008 didn’t bother me at all, it was almost obvious it would happen anyway. And they aren’t the only team to do it.

I do hate it when it is mid season and there is no real difference between drivers’ points.

But back to Rampante’s comments about the individual driver being responsible, I agree.

And I too agree with Icthyes suggesting it could be Alonso.

I started by saying that I am a driver supporter, and at the bottom of my list, perhaps even a bit lower then the end of the page and down, underneath the earth somewhere, is Alonso.

(And funnily enough my boss’s father said he’ll only really like Alonso if he can help win Ferrari a Championship ;) )

Itchyes, my reply was with reference to the continual underhand tactics you claim Ferrari have used and the association that Alonso has with a win at all cost (cheating) attitude.

At most points in history the very best drivers have driven for Ferrari. They have always hired the best (with one obvious exception) and generally the best have always wanted to drive for them. Alonso has had a poor relationship with UK fans which most Europeans don’t quite understand. It will never be understood why a team would employ him and then the team boss say half way through a season that the team is racing against him. Mclaren hired him because he was the best driver at the time and for that same reason he is with Ferrari. He is guilty of nothing more than being single minded and totally focused on the title. You can as many fans have speculated on his involvement in certain events but surely even in F1 someone is innocent when proved to be so by the authorities.

In the comments I posted after Germany I made it clear that I did not like what the team did but I do understand why, in the same way I could not see much more of a punishment than the one they were given. I cannot understand this idea that the big bad red team are constantly involved in acts of impropriety while all others are squeaky clean and you along with many others must see that.

I like to think after all the years I’ve been a fan and with 10 years involved within the sport I have a reasonable grasp of what goes on within it.

I don’t think anyone really does think their team is squeaky clean – most of them just divert the subject, be it McLaren or whomever. Fans of Red Bull as opposed to Vettel-only fans were highly embarrassed by what happened in Turkey and Britain. McLaren and Hamilton got a slating for what they did, in the latter case even by many of their fans (you’d be surpirsed how many “love McLaren, hate Lewis” fans there are). Renault fans were appalled when the Singapore scandal came out.

Something I don’t think you do see is that the reason Ferrari is singled out is because of the frequency of what they did, the disregard and unapologetic nature in doing so, not to mention the association with Schumacher’s personal actions, which they never appeared to be all that bothered about. In Spygate, McLaren were fined what even a casual fan perceived to be a massive amount, more than “doing the time” for “doing the crime”. It has also stood, so far, as an isolated incident and rightly or wrongly most fans won’t equate to cheating technically to ramming people off the road or telling drivers to gift fairly-won races. With Hamilton, he was roasted alive in the press and then manned up and apologised. Renault sacked the perpetrators of the Singapore plot and too apologised. Ferrari have never apologised for what they’ve done, Alonso in particular still acts as if his gifted wins are untainted by their circumstances.

That’s why Ferrari is seen as worse than the others. You may see their attitude as something admirable, but very many do not. Dare I ask, if Ferrari started being more humble and lost a championship because they didn’t switch their cars around earlier on in the year, and McLaren made Hamilton their #1 a soon as Button was more than 30 points behind him, ordering to drop down from 4th to 9th just so Hamilton could get a few extra points, would you still feel the same way about the teams as you do now?

What you’re saying is Alonso is guilty by association because he was a member of two teams caught cheating. I hope for the sake of the general public’s sake you are not a layer or magistrate.

Ferrari have always played the team game and the team victory is more important. We have 6 races left this year and very soon both Mclaren and Red Bull will have to concentrate on a driver if they want to win. If Hamilton is 30 points ahead of Button with 3 races to go Button can easily say he has a chance still to win, you me and the team may feel differently but technically he still has the chance to pull it off and that is why team orders exist and why Ferrari were not further punished. Mclaren and RBR will back their preferred driver. Do you really think Mclaren were happy when Ferrari won with Kimi because they could not put their own house in order?

I have never been a blind Ferrari fan who has or tried to justify their actions over the years. As passionate as I am about the team I liken most of their support to that of Manchester United (apologies to all true fans) . As I said earlier those of us who kept the faith waiting 21 years for a title and during a time when Ferrari himself wanted to pull out and sell up are the true fans and not just the glory hunters who climbed aboard.

This is an excellent subject and interesting to see different attitudes towards the sport within a European context.