AttributesAttribute Scores: Roll 4d6 7 times dropping lowest die roll each time, drop lowest score and arrange as desired.Class Primes: There are no class required primes.Attribute Score Increase: Beginning at 6th level and every 6th level, the player character can increase any attribute of their choice by 1 point. Cannot increase attributes beyond normal racial ranges. Attributes beyond 19: To determine what bonuses and benefits are gained for Attributes above 19, use Table 1.5 God-like Attributes on page 12 of the CKG.Perception: A perception check is called for during circumstances when the characters may notice something out of the ordinary. It does not replace any kind of search check covered by another race or class ability.Check: 1d20+Perception Score vs 15 Perception Score:a. The average (round down) of the bonuses from "mental" attributes.b. If a character has any "mental" attribute as prime they gain a +1 to the check.c. Races that gain a bonus to Listen checks gain that same bonus to perception checks (elf +2, gnome +3, etc)d. Ranger, rogue, assassin, barbarian, illusionist, druid, skald, and bard classes gain a +1 to their check.

ClassesStarting Hit Points: All first level characters start with maximum hit points.Extra Attacks: The martial classes gain additional melee/ranged attacks each round as they advance in level. -fighters gain extra attacks at levels 6 & 13 (3 attacks max barring cleave)-rangers, barbarians, berserkers, paladins, cavaliers, and skalds gain an extra attack at level 8 (2 attacks max)Minor Magic: Spellcasters do not need to prepare 0 level spells, but may still only cast the number of 0 level spells per day as indicated on the appropriate Spells per Day chart from the PHB.Maximum Spell Level: Spellcasters may only learn/cast spell levels up to ½ (rounded down) of their appropriate spellcasting attribute score ( Int/Wis ex. Arodir is a wizard and has a 17 Int, so can only learn up to 8th level spells).

Fighter: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Weapon Specialization: At first level, the fighter selects one weapon group to become an expert with. The fighter gains a +1 to hit and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 every 6 levels thereafter (+2 at 7th, +3 at 13th, etc) to a total bonus of +5. At 7th level, the fighter can select a second group of weapons to specialize in for a +1 to hit and damage. This second group’s bonus to hit and damage increases by +1 every 6 levels thereafter to a maximum of +3 at 19th level. At 13th level, the fighter can select a 3rd weapon group at +1 to hit and damage. This group's bonus never increases.The following weapon groups may be selected:Axes: battle axe, bearded axe, hand/throwing axe, piercing axe, 2-handed axe, hatchet Bows: longbow, short bow, comp longbow, comp short bowClubs: club, light mace, heavy mace, morningstar, godentag Crossbows: light crossbow, heavy crossbow, hand crossbow Flails: sap, light flail, heavy flailHammers: light hammer, war hammer, maul Heavy Polearms: bardiche, glaive, glaive guisarme, guisarme, halberd, lucerne hammer, pike, ranseur Lances: light lance, heavy lanceLarge Blades: 2-handed sword, bastard sword, falchion, great scimitar, flamberge Light Polearms: bec de corbin, bill or billhook, fauchard, fauchard fork, military fork, partisan, voulgeLong Blades: broad sword, long sword, scimitar, nine ring broad sword Picks: light pick, heavy pick, crowbillPunching Weapons: brass knuckles, cestus, katar Reaping Weapons: scythe, sickle, hafted hook Short Blades: short sword, rapier, tulwar, hook sword, flatchetSmall Blades: knife, cleaver, dagger, dirk, main gauche, poniardSpears: spear, long spear, wolf spear, staff, trident, man catcher, sleeve tanglerThrowing Weapons: harpoon, javelin, aclis, dart, slings, bolasWhips: cat-o-nine-tails, whipCleave: If the fighter slays his opponent, he may make an immediate attack against another opponent that is within 5 ft of his original target.Combat Dominance: The fighter gets multiple attacks per round whenever he is taking on 3 or more opponents at one time, regardless of HD. 1 attack per opponent, this replaces any other attacks, however it does stack with Cleave.

Ranger: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Ditch Medicine: The ranger is able to use his knowledge of herbs and plants to make effective poultices. The ranger is able to heal 1d6+Wis mod hit points of damage once per day per person (a recipient can only benefit from one use per day). At 6th level and every 6th level, the number of dice healed increases by 1 (2d6 at 6th, 3d6 at 12th, etc).Spells: Beginning at 6th level, the ranger gains access to druidic magic. The ranger can cast druid spells as if he were a druid 5 levels lower. Rangers can only cast up to 4th level spells. (Ex. Rigon is an 11th level ranger. He casts druid spells as if he were a 6th level druid.)

Barbarian: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Whirlwind Attack: The barbarian can use his whirlwind attack a number of times equal to 1 + Con bonus per combat encounter (minimum of 1 time).Ditch Medicine: The barbarian is able to use his knowledge of herbs and plants to make effective poultices. The barbarian is able to heal 1d6+Wis mod hit points of damage once per day per person (a recipient can only benefit from one use per day). At 6th level and every 6th level, the number of dice healed increases by 1 (2d6 at 6th, 3d6 at 12th, etc).

Cavalier (Knight): As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Alignment: Since the cavalier must follow a strict code of conduct, all cavaliers must be of Lawful alignment.Inspire: This ability can be used once plus the cavalier’s Cha bonus per day (minimum of once per day). Embolden: This ability can be used once plus the cavalier’s Cha bonus per day (minimum of once per day). Demoralize: This ability can be used once plus the cavalier’s Cha bonus per day (minimum of once per day).

Paladin: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Smite Evil: A paladin gains use of this ability at 1st level instead of 9th and may use it 1/day + Cha modifer.Horsemanship: A paladin gains the Horsemanship ability of the cavalier without the Charge attack, but only when mounted on the paladin's Divine Mount.Spells: Beginning at 6th level, the paladin gains access to clerical magic. The paladin can cast cleric spells as if he were a cleric 5 levels lower. Paladins can only cast up to 4th level spells. (Ex. Keenwa is an 11th level paladin. He casts cleric spells as if he were a 6th level cleric.)

Berserker (1st-3rd Print Barbarian): As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Alignment: The berserker taps into his raw, primal nature to fuel his primal abilities; therefore he can only be of Chaotic alignment.Primal Fury: The fatigue from primal fury last 4 hours minus one hour per Con bonus.

Skald: As the PHB Bard, with the following changes/additions:Sleight of Hand: The skald has the ability to use quick and nimble hand movements to hide or misdirect small items. This works just like the thief ability Pick Pockets.Listen: Add the thief ability of Listen to the skald's ability list.

Thief (Rogue): As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Armor Allowed: Add studded leather to the list of allowed armors for the thief.

Assassin: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Armor Allowed: Add studded leather and chain shirt to the list of allowed armors for the assassin.

Bard: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Hit Die: Lower the bard’s hit die to that of the cleric.Base to Hit: Decrease the bard’s BtH to that of the cleric.Sleight of Hand: The bard has the ability to use quick and nimble hand movements to hide or misdirect small items. This works just like the thief ability Pick Pockets.Listen: Add the thief ability of Listen to the bard’s ability list.Jack of All Trades: The bard learns a little bit of everything in his travels. At 1st level the bard selects one + Int modifier of class abilities from the list below and adds it to his list of class abilities. List of Class Abilities: Delay/Neutralize Poisons, Ditch Medicine, Track, Survival, Climb, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Traps, Disguise, Poisons, Nature Lore, or Inspire.Spells: As a dabbler in all things, a bard picks up a little knowledge of magic. Beginning at 2nd level, the bard selects which type of magic (wizardry, sorcery, clerical, or druidic) he can cast. The bard casts spells as a caster of half his level (round down). (Ex. Davon is a 6th level bard. At second level, he chose to cast wizard spells. He can cast spells as a 3rd level wizard.)

Wizard: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Additional Weapons: The wizard adds slings and light crossbows to their list of allowed weapons.Read Magic: The wizard may cast Read Magic for free a number of times per day equal to his Int bonus without using up a spell slot.

Sorcerer (Illusionist): As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Additional Weapons: The sorcerer adds slings and light crossbows to their list of allowed weapons.Read Magic: The sorcerer may cast Read Magic for free a number of times per day equal to his Int bonus without using up a spell slot.

Cleric: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Additional Weapons: The cleric adds slings and light crossbows to their list of allowed weapons.Cure/Harm Spells: Clerics add their Wis bonus to all Cure/Harm spells.Spontaneous casting: The cleric is able to swap out a prepared 1st thru 4th level spell and cure/harm 1d8 hit points per level swapped (ex. A prepared 2nd level spell can be swapped out to cure 2d8 hit points of damage).

Druid: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Ditch Medicine: The druid is able to use his knowledge of herbs and plants to make effective poultices. The druid is able to heal 1d6+Wis mod hit points of damage once per day per person (a recipient can only benefit from one use per day). At 6th level and every 6th level, the number of dice healed increases by 1 (2d6 at 6th, 3d6 at 12th, etc).

Monk: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:Alignment: Since the monk is dedicated to harnessing the power of his mind and body, he can only be of Lawful alignment.Wise Defense: The monk adds his Wis bonus to his AC.

Multi-classing:1. any two classes (baring alignment restrictions)2. all XP must be divided evenly between classes3. 1st level, add HPs from both classes, divide by 2, add Con mod; when a level is gained roll appropriate HD add Con mod and divide by 24. gain best To Hit bonus of both classes5. use least restrictive weapons list of both classes6. use most restrictive armor list of both classes7. gain abilities of both classes; cannot combine abilities8. use the average level of classes (round up).

Dual-classing:1. must start with one class2. after gaining at least 2 levels in starting class, may switch to any class (baring alignment restrictions); character may not return to previous class3. when gaining a new class, new hit points are not gained until the new class has surpassed the old class in levels; can gain only a total of 10 HD4. gain best To Hit bonus of both classes5. use least restrictive weapons list of both classes6. use most restrictive armor list of both classes7. gain abilities of both classes; cannot combine abilities 8. use the combined class levels to determine the bonus to saves

Arcane Casting in ArmorMulti/Dual-classed arcane caster can cast spells while wearing armor that is appropriate to their non-arcane casting class.1. The character makes an Int check versus the AC bonus of the armor worn + the spell level of the spell being cast. Magical armor reduces this check on a 1 to 1 basis. (If the PC is wearing chain mail +1, the AC bonus is reduce by +1)2. Multi/Dual Classed characters add in ½ (rounded down) of their non-arcane casting class and all of their arcane casting class to the check.

RacesElf: Add the following ability to the elf’s racial traits:Magical Nature: Since elves are strongly connected to magic, a multi/dual classed elf adds a +2 to their Arcane Casting in Armor check.

Gnome: Add the following to the gnome’s racial abilities: Magical Nature: Since gnomes are strongly connected to sorcery magic, a multi/dual classed gnome sorcerer gains a +1 to their Arcane Casting in Armor check.

Half-elf: A half-elf character has the following traits:Common Half-elf Abilities: As listed in the PHB.Human Lineage Abilities: As listed in the PHB.Attribute Check Modification: As listed in the PHB, but increase the bonus to +3.Twilight Vision: As listed in the elf entry of the PHB.Magical Nature: Since half-elves have their elven parent’s connection to magic, a multi/dual classed half-elf adds a +1 to their Arcane Casting in Armor check.

Halfling: Add the following ability to the halfling’s racial traits:Sharp Eyed: Due to good hand/eye coordination, Halflings add a +1 to all thrown weapon or sling attack rolls.

Half-orc: Add the following ability to the half-orc’s racial traits:Attribute Check Modification: As listed in the half-elf entry of the PHB, but increase the bonus to +3.

EquipmentStarting Gold: All characters start play with ¾ of maximum gold for their class. Multiclass character use ¾ of the average maximum gold for their classes.Shields: Bucklers and small shields impart a +1 to AC. Medium and large shields impart a +2 to AC.Expert Weapons: price x 10 for +1 to hit; price x 25 for +1 to hit & damageExpert Armor: price + 50% for +1 to ACAdamantine & Mithral: These non-magical, rare metals can be shaped into weapons and armor that have unique properties. If crafted by an expert smith, the bonuses given by the material and the expert crafting stack. However, if the item is enchanted, the non-magical bonuses are superseded by the magical bonus.Adamantine: Armor and weapons made of Adamntine weigh 80% of normal weapons and armor and grants a +2 non-magical bonus to AC and attack/damage rolls. Mithral: Armor and weapons made of Mithral weigh 50% of normal weapons and armor and grants a +1 non-magical bonus to AC and attack/damage rolls. Also, armor made of mithral are treated as if its base AC value were 1 less for Arcane Casting in Armor checks. (ex. Mithral mail shirt would be considered AC +3 instead of +4 for ACiA checks)

MagicSpell dismissal: Spellcasters can dismiss their own spells.Spell Resistance: To overcome SR, a caster rolls a d20 and adds their relevant Attribute bonus (Int for arcane, Wis for divine).Spell Disruption: A spell can be disrupted if the caster is being grappled, takes damage, or has their concentration affected in any way. However, if he caster can make an Attribute Check (as deemed appropriate by the CK), the caster can still cast the spell.

Magic ItemsMagical arms and armors: weigh 50% of their non-magical counterparts.Magic Item Stacking: Magic items that have similar properties do not stack. (ie. ring of protection and magical armor)Magic Item Functions: Unless otherwise specified, a magic item’s spell-like abilities (range, duration, area, saves, etc) function at the level of the user.Holy Avengers: the SR given for Holy Avengers is a static SR 10 (not 5+level).Elven Chain: Elven Chain has no innate magical bonus to its AC (base AC of +5). However, it is considered the same as padded armor for weight, encumbrance, and casting in armor checks. It can be enchanted like other armors.Magic Stones: the spellcaster can only have 1 group of magic stones (3 stones) in effect per level of the caster at a time. (ex. 3 stones at 1st level until used up. 6 stones at 2nd level until used up, 12 stones at 4th level until used up, etc)

CombatMovement: You can move your maximum movement and still act.Natural 20: Max damage + 1d6 additional damage.Natural 1: Make a Dex save or lose next turn. Dual Wielding: If a character is Dex Prime, they get a bonus to dual wielding. They gain a +2 to both attacks. This offsets the -3/-6 of normal dual wielding. A high Dex bonus can never give a positive bonus to an attack roll, it just offsets the negative. (Rigon has Dex prime and a Dex of 20. He dual wields. His attacks rolls are made at +0/+0 (-2 offset by +4 Dex bonus and -4 offset by +4 Dex bonus). He does still get to add any Str bonus to the attack roll.Character Death: Characters can lose HP up to negative of their Con score before death.Daily Healing: Heal back 1/level + Con bonus HPs per day w/appropriate rest.Luck Points: All characters have fate points1. At the start of each session, roll 1d8 and add your level plus your highest Attribute modifer to determine Luck Points for the session. 2. LPs are added (as a bonus) to any one roll. 3. May use any number of LPs during the session.4. LPs cannot be used on a Nat 1.5. LPs expire at the end of each session.

I think you may want to create new XP charts for those you give spell casting to.

The new 30 minutes/level to pray or memorize spells is going to lead to adventuring every other day and eventually every third day, etc... if you run a game to really high levels. For example, if a 9th level cleric needs to pray for their full complement of spells they will need to spend 17 hours praying to get all of them. So add the 8 hours of sleep needed, that is 25 hours. Obviously if they only need a few back, its not so bad. As you have seen, regularly, in our game, the spell casters are often completely out of spells, or nearly so, when the group decides to rest. Add 3 hours to that total if they have an 18 WIS.

So I am personally fine with it being 10 minutes per spell level.

_________________Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

I think you may want to create new XP charts for those you give spell casting to.

I don't think they need it. I never thought that the xp charts needed to be higher when I was playing 1st/2nd ed AD&D. And the classes I added casting to where the ones that had it in those editions. The only one that I might consider increasing would be the bard. (EDIT: I just compared the bard to a wizard. For a wizard to get to cast as a 2nd level caster only needs 2501 xp. A bard to be able to cast as a 2nd level caster (of any type) needs 7501. I think I can live with it.)

Quote:

The new 30 minutes/level to pray or memorize spells is going to lead to adventuring every other day and eventually every third day, etc... if you run a game to really high levels. For example, if a 9th level cleric needs to pray for their full complement of spells they will need to spend 17 hours praying to get all of them. So add the 8 hours of sleep needed, that is 25 hours. Obviously if they only need a few back, its not so bad. As you have seen, regularly, in our game, the spell casters are often completely out of spells, or nearly so, when the group decides to rest. Add 3 hours to that total if they have an 18 WIS.

Tree, I think you misread that. It says that a character needs 30 minutes to study/pray for all the spells of a given level. So using your example, to recover all spells that a high level caster could cast (up to 9th level spells) would be an additional 4 1/2 hours not 17.

Ah. No, I did not misread it, it clearly says "plus 30 minutes per spell level of study/prayer time to prepare spells for the day.", but I now know what you mean, and that is much better.

_________________Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Overall I like your house rules, especially what you've done for the ranger and paladin, and the fighter's extra attacks (though imo, I think that maybe rangers and paladins should also gain some extra attacks as well, though at a level or two higher than the fighter but I can see a valid argument against it).

Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:55 am

Kayolan

Lore Drake

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:00 amPosts: 1716

Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Also, a question: Do fate points replenish or are they one time usage only?

Overall I like your house rules, especially what you've done for the ranger and paladin, and the fighter's extra attacks (though imo, I think that maybe rangers and paladins should also gain some extra attacks as well, though at a level or two higher than the fighter but I can see a valid argument against it).

They do. All warrior types gain extra attacks at a slower rate than the fighter and only to a max of 2 attacks per round. It is the first thing listed under the class section.

Overall I like your house rules, especially what you've done for the ranger and paladin, and the fighter's extra attacks (though imo, I think that maybe rangers and paladins should also gain some extra attacks as well, though at a level or two higher than the fighter but I can see a valid argument against it).

They do. All warrior types gain extra attacks at a slower rate than the fighter and only to a max of 2 attacks per round. It is the first thing listed under the class section.

Howevever, this is the beauty of TLG's C&C. You can house rule this game and never break it. You gotta love this game! It so cool to be able to house rule all you want without the worries of breaking the game.

Howevever, this is the beauty of TLG's C&C. You can house rule this game and never break it. You gotta love this game! It so cool to be able to house rule all you want without the worries of breaking the game.

What is so 3E ish? Everything there I see being inspired by 1E or 2E D&D.

_________________Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:26 pm

Lord Dynel

Maukling

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 amPosts: 5842

Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Treebore wrote:

Snoring Rock wrote:

Yikes....it is so, so, well, so 3.5-ish!

Howevever, this is the beauty of TLG's C&C. You can house rule this game and never break it. You gotta love this game! It so cool to be able to house rule all you want without the worries of breaking the game.

What is so 3E ish? Everything there I see being inspired by 1E or 2E D&D.

Adding attribute points every X level, spontaneous healing spells...there are a few 3rdisms. Not many, though.

But, believe it or not, there was some good things to come out of 3.x.

Howevever, this is the beauty of TLG's C&C. You can house rule this game and never break it. You gotta love this game! It so cool to be able to house rule all you want without the worries of breaking the game.

What is so 3E ish? Everything there I see being inspired by 1E or 2E D&D.

Adding attribute points every X level, spontaneous healing spells...there are a few 3rdisms. Not many, though.

But, believe it or not, there was some good things to come out of 3.x.

Pretty good rules, overall, Rigon!

Swapping out healing is the only thing from 3E. Increasing attributes was being done (optionally) well before 3E. All 3E did was make attribute increases an automatic part of leveling.

_________________Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:54 pm

Lord Dynel

Maukling

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 amPosts: 5842

Re: Rigon's "new" house rules

Treebore wrote:

All 3E did was make attribute increases an automatic part of leveling.

Which is exactly what Rigon did. Not that's a bad thing, but it is an element from 3rd.

Hmm, other than a few things, most of these ideas come from AD&D 2e. Which was my favorite version of AD&D. True, I did take some things from 3e (attribute increases, spell swapping, a few others), but most of it is inspired by 2e.

Quote:

Howevever, this is the beauty of TLG's C&C. You can house rule this game and never break it. You gotta love this game! It so cool to be able to house rule all you want without the worries of breaking the game.

Rigon, I aint knocking it. I think it is a well thought-out, well delivered and organized set of house rules. I have a few myself in the area of how weapons work.

I was not looking specifically at exactly 3.5 rules. Let me reword it; they power-up like 3.5 did, and heck for that matter, like 2e did. That is all. Not bad, just making an observation. Not offence intended.

Rigon, I aint knocking it. I think it is a well thought-out, well delivered and organized set of house rules. I have a few myself in the area of how weapons work.

Thanks.

Quote:

I was not looking specifically at exactly 3.5 rules. Let me reword it; they power-up like 3.5 did, and heck for that matter, like 2e did. That is all. Not bad, just making an observation. Not offense intended.

No offense taken. I was just surprised that it came across as so 3e-ish. As I said above, most of the changes were inspired by 2e.

Well, 2E is also guilty of "power up" with all the crap in the optional rule books, etc... I've seen many accuse 1E of that just because of Unearthed Arcana, and in some cases, especially with things such as the "magic item of anything", I agreed.

I have been accused of the same thing with my house rules, and I totally agree. That is because I look at things with an eye towards making the Fighter as devastating on the battle field as mages are. Or at least kind of close. Hence my rules like how I do Combat Dominance.

_________________Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

I never really saw 2e as that powerful. We mainly played by the baseline. We had a lot of the Players Complete books, but I can only remember one guy ever using a kit and that was a caviler from the Fighters book. But, having played in two different campaigns run by Tree, I don't think his house rules import that much power, just options.

I never really saw 2e as that powerful. We mainly played by the baseline. We had a lot of the Players Complete books, but I can only remember one guy ever using a kit and that was a caviler from the Fighters book. But, having played in two different campaigns run by Tree, I don't think his house rules import that much power, just options.

R-

Yeah, I ran 2E for over 10 years, and used very little out of the Options books, and nothing along the lines of Kits. Thats because you know how I allow you to earn things in my C&C game? I started with that idea back in my 2E days, before the kit books even came out. So I stuck with earning it rather than having it given via kits.

_________________Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

So, I've been thinking about perception. Which led me to look up the convos from two summers ago. I liked the discussions that we had and have been giving this some more thought. Here is my thread and here is LD's.

I was thinking of maybe doing sort of like a grapple or overbear check with a standard set difficulty adjusted by the highest "mental" attribute plus a bonus for having one of them Prime. So, it would look something like this:

Hmmm... So your saying roll a 1d20 and add anywhere from 2 to 5 (assuming no gets above a +3 attribute modifier, at least at the start of the game), and no adding level? Beat a 15?

I am actually leaning more and more of going back to how I did it in 2E. Plus it makes use of my D30's. I did the average of INT and WIS and roll under it on the D30. For Rangers I gave a +1 for every 3 levels they gained to be added to their average.

I could adapt it to a D20 by subtracting 6 from the average. I really liked how it worked. The number of successes just always felt right.

If I am understanding your idea correctly, your odds of success are actually pretty close to how my D30 idea worked. Your method, as I describe it anyways, is actually harder to succeed on. Depending on actual Attribute scores, since that is what my idea works on.

How would you handle a Ranger, or any other class where Perception is defined/implied as one of their class abilities?

_________________Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

I really haven't given it must thought any way. I just started to kick it around today. I'm open to any kind of discussion or thoughts on it. I am still leaning more toward my original thought in my thread from before, ie. d20+level+the average of PC's mental attribute bonuses+any racial modifiers vs 12/18 depending on the situation/circumstances. I could just change the 12/18 to the straight 15 and be done with it. The few times I got to use this in my games, I liked the feel of it.

I thought about it a little bit more from that discussion that Mr. Rigon linked, but I never posted my follow-up thoughts there. So here are my thoughts, in a nutshell, concerning those additional thoughts:

Being perceptive can be divided up into three areas, which are covered by the three mental attributes:

Intelligence - when surveying a scene, finding important things, things of value, or items of note.Wisdom - to notice something out of place, a hidden item or danger, or something not normally apparent.Charisma - to ascertain clues in a social situation, usually dealing with living creatures (primarily humanoids) that deal with body language and demeanor.

Depending on the situation, a different check is called for. If it's prime, then roll vs. a base 12. In not, roll vs. base 18.

Then I totally missed the forest for the trees...these are just normal attribute checks!

So, then I went back to the drawing board and back to our original ideas (for the linked thread). I like them both, Rigon, yours and mine. I'm convinced that I don't like just a straight Wisdom check, because (imho) I don't feel being perceptive is solely wisdom based.

I thought about it a little bit more from that discussion that Mr. Rigon linked, but I never posted my follow-up thoughts there. So here are my thoughts, in a nutshell, concerning those additional thoughts:

Being perceptive can be divided up into three areas, which are covered by the three mental attributes:

Intelligence - when surveying a scene, finding important things, things of value, or items of note.Wisdom - to notice something out of place, a hidden item or danger, or something not normally apparent.Charisma - to ascertain clues in a social situation, usually dealing with living creatures (primarily humanoids) that deal with body language and demeanor.

Depending on the situation, a different check is called for. If it's prime, then roll vs. a base 12. In not, roll vs. base 18.

Then I totally missed the forest for the trees...these are just normal attribute checks!

So, then I went back to the drawing board and back to our original ideas (for the linked thread). I like them both, Rigon, yours and mine. I'm convinced that I don't like just a straight Wisdom check, because (imho) I don't feel being perceptive is solely wisdom based.

Your break down of how each "mental" attribute is used to perceive is how I think about them. And like you, I dislike Wis being the sole factor of perception. I think that since I view the attributes this way is why I like using the average of the bonuses. And I also like having a "standard" starting point so everyone is equal (15 instead of 12/18). I don't think that being perceptive should necessarily be based on level as it's more of an intuitive thing, at least how I see it.So following my train of thought, I now have something that looks like this:

perception check: 1d20+Perception Score vs 15.

Perception Score:The average (round down) of the bonuses from "mental" attributes.If a character has any "mental" attribute as prime they gain a +2 to the check.Races that gain a bonus to Listen checks gain that same bonus to perception checks (elf +2, gnome +3, etc)Ranger, rogue, assassin, barbarian, illusionist, druid, and bard classes gain a +2 to their check.

So as an example, I'll use my character from Tree's game and compare him with a character I played in one of Nate's games:Daithan is a 9th level elven ranger with an average "mental" attribute bonus of 1 (Int 1, Wis 2, Cha 1). He is Wis prime. Daithan's Perception Score would be 7 (average of 1 + wis prime 2 + elf 2 + ranger 2). He only needs a 8 or higher on a d20 to succeed at his perception rolls (65% of the time).

Raevil is an 8th level human cleric with average attributes of 1 (Int 1, Wis 2, Cha 1). He is Wis prime.His Perception Score would be 3 (average of 1 + wis prime 2). He needs to roll a 12 or higher to succeed (45% of the time).

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