Although an extended deal between Renault and Red Bull for 2019 and 2020 was never formally announced, Motorsport.com understands that it was agreed, but that it now in the process of being cancelled by the French manufacturer as part of the fallout of Toro Rosso's divorce from Renault for 2018.

And here I was thinking RB were sitting pretty in the Penthouse with Macca, TR deal and now it seams they've potentially landed in the sh1thouse.

When you think about it, can't really blame Renault.Red Bull hoping they can use the junior team to test the Honda engine till it becomes competitive, then immediately dump Renault for Honda.Renault have their works team, and know McLaren will treat them better than Red Bull, purely cos their engine is better bet than Honda.

There is discussion as to whether Red Bull will stay in F1 after 2020. If Red Bull go would Torro Rosso go too? The current Red Bull drivers will be scrabbling to pinch Bottas' place when his contract expires.

Much depends on whether Porsche become a supplier but even so getting a working PU up and running quickly is far from obvious given the Honda debacle.

And here I was thinking RB were sitting pretty in the Penthouse with Macca, TR deal and now it seams they've potentially landed in the sh1thouse.

When you think about it, can't really blame Renault.Red Bull hoping they can use the junior team to test the Honda engine till it becomes competitive, then immediately dump Renault for Honda.Renault have their works team, and know McLaren will treat them better than Red Bull, purely cos their engine is better bet than Honda.

By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

There is discussion as to whether Red Bull will stay in F1 after 2020. If Red Bull go would Torro Rosso go too? The current Red Bull drivers will be scrabbling to pinch Bottas' place when his contract expires.

Much depends on whether Porsche become a supplier but even so getting a working PU up and running quickly is far from obvious given the Honda debacle.

The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

Nah we need a rule structure that doesn't give the manufacturers so much power and gives independent teams a realistic chance of being successful. And then we need more independent teams!

By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

Nah we need a rule structure that doesn't give the manufacturers so much power and gives independent teams a realistic chance of being successful. And then we need more independent teams!

How, though? I think every sport has left the grass roots the more that money has become involved, and its near impossible for F1 to be something to everyone.

F1 needs to be the most advanced, quickest (around a lap) cars in the world. What chance does an independent team have, under any ruleset, up against a team spending £400million?

The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars. Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.

By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

Nah we need a rule structure that doesn't give the manufacturers so much power and gives independent teams a realistic chance of being successful. And then we need more independent teams!

How, though? I think every sport has left the grass roots the more that money has become involved, and its near impossible for F1 to be something to everyone.

F1 needs to be the most advanced, quickest (around a lap) cars in the world. What chance does an independent team have, under any ruleset, up against a team spending £400million?

F1 did just fine after the mass exodus of manufacturers in 2008/09. But it needed people like Ross Brawn and Peter Sauber - people that were there for the love of racing rather than a corporate PR exercise - to gather whatever was left and go racing

F1 would be better off without teams spending £400million. There would be just as much, if not more, entertainment from a field of Force India, Williams and Haas-level teams battling for the titles

If only they would all have Renault Engines - then we could see Alonso, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Hulkenberg and Sainz battling it out. it would make for more interest than Hamilton V's Bottas (or maybe Vettel).

Do we know what the 2021 engines are meant to be like?So Ferrari, Merc, Renault, Honda, and hopefully a couple more, know what to do well in advance so we don't end up with the farce of this turbo era again?

By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

Nah we need a rule structure that doesn't give the manufacturers so much power and gives independent teams a realistic chance of being successful. And then we need more independent teams!

How, though? I think every sport has left the grass roots the more that money has become involved, and its near impossible for F1 to be something to everyone.

F1 needs to be the most advanced, quickest (around a lap) cars in the world. What chance does an independent team have, under any ruleset, up against a team spending £400million?

F1 did just fine after the mass exodus of manufacturers in 2008/09. But it needed people like Ross Brawn and Peter Sauber - people that were there for the love of racing rather than a corporate PR exercise - to gather whatever was left and go racing

F1 would be better off without teams spending £400million. There would be just as much, if not more, entertainment from a field of Force India, Williams and Haas-level teams battling for the titles

I don't particularly disagree from a racing standpoint. But the reason F1 is F1 is the "pinnacle of motorsport" tag, where are they without that? Bear in mind those teams would still be spending £100m+ a year to challenge for a title, so not like they're suddenly going to get beat by an independent.

There is discussion as to whether Red Bull will stay in F1 after 2020. If Red Bull go would Torro Rosso go too? The current Red Bull drivers will be scrabbling to pinch Bottas' place when his contract expires.

Much depends on whether Porsche become a supplier but even so getting a working PU up and running quickly is far from obvious given the Honda debacle.

Porsche are not just going to be an engine supplier they are going to buy Red Bull out, similarly we might see Honda buy out STR?

There is discussion as to whether Red Bull will stay in F1 after 2020. If Red Bull go would Torro Rosso go too? The current Red Bull drivers will be scrabbling to pinch Bottas' place when his contract expires.

Much depends on whether Porsche become a supplier but even so getting a working PU up and running quickly is far from obvious given the Honda debacle.

The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars. Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.

Infiniti was placed on the cars several years ago to promote the brand while they & Vettel were winning everything because it is owned by Renault, so I don't think they mind.

My take on Renault choosing to terminate the contract sooner rather than later is that by having the Junior Team run the troublesome Honda Engines, they can trickle down tidbits of info from the Renault unit which could help Honda get things right and if they do a good enough job they'll be able to best Renault. Perhaps a bit of a reach, but if it were me, I'd be weary of that.

As for Porsche buying them, I'm not so sure they'd want to pay out the wazoo for a team when they could easily build their own, utilizing their entire Audi WEC outfit and facilities. Besides, I think VW takes great pride in running its race programs on home soil and buying up Red Bull would mean they'd either have to stay put in the UK or pay to move them to Germany and I think they'll just start fresh.

The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars. Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.

Infiniti was placed on the cars several years ago to promote the brand while they & Vettel were winning everything because it is owned by Renault, so I don't think they mind.

My take on Renault choosing to terminate the contract sooner rather than later is that by having the Junior Team run the troublesome Honda Engines, they can trickle down tidbits of info from the Renault unit which could help Honda get things right and if they do a good enough job they'll be able to best Renault. Perhaps a bit of a reach, but if it were me, I'd be weary of that.

As for Porsche buying them, I'm not so sure they'd want to pay out the wazoo for a team when they could easily build their own, utilizing their entire Audi WEC outfit and facilities. Besides, I think VW takes great pride in running its race programs on home soil and buying up Red Bull would mean they'd either have to stay put in the UK or pay to move them to Germany and I think they'll just start fresh.

You would be amazed at how closely guarded engines are to customer teams, they are removed immediately after the race and taken back then given back at the next race and I believe installed by the suppliers employees for the customers The supplier have about 10 employees permanently embedded into the customers team who deal with nearly all things engine related. The customer obviously knows the numbers for the engine but they are as in the dark as you or to what is going on inside.

The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

Red Bull were selling up anyway regardless of losing Renault engines.

That's far from confirmed. However, if Honda can't catch Renault (let alone Ferrari and Mercedes) between now and 2019 then a less competitive engine than what they currently have is hardly going to increase the likelihood that they stick around.

The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars. Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.

Infiniti was placed on the cars several years ago to promote the brand while they & Vettel were winning everything because it is owned by Renault, so I don't think they mind.

My take on Renault choosing to terminate the contract sooner rather than later is that by having the Junior Team run the troublesome Honda Engines, they can trickle down tidbits of info from the Renault unit which could help Honda get things right and if they do a good enough job they'll be able to best Renault. Perhaps a bit of a reach, but if it were me, I'd be weary of that.

As for Porsche buying them, I'm not so sure they'd want to pay out the wazoo for a team when they could easily build their own, utilizing their entire Audi WEC outfit and facilities. Besides, I think VW takes great pride in running its race programs on home soil and buying up Red Bull would mean they'd either have to stay put in the UK or pay to move them to Germany and I think they'll just start fresh.

What I read, dont recall where, was that red bull taper the name out over (say) 3 years, but let the ownership happen up front. So in effect, now owners get a free year, half paid in year 2 and stump up in final year. That has to be attractive to a potential buyer.

As far as Sainz deal is concerned, the talk is that Sainz has exit clause if he is not promoted to the A team next year and he will be a free agent if he wants early.

Renault might have actually signed Sainz for good. But if not already done, it might hit some trouble now.

Cant really blame Renault if the TR news is accurate. They might just want to concentrate on 1 works team and another tier 1 team that lets them put actual Renault badge in the team name as well as all feedback they need.

This situation appears to be RedBull's own creation at the moment. We still dont know as many details as we need to really understand what is going on. Wait and watch.

As far as Sainz deal is concerned, the talk is that Sainz has exit clause if he is not promoted to the A team next year and he will be a free agent if he wants early.

Renault might have actually signed Sainz for good. But if not already done, it might hit some trouble now.

Cant really blame Renault if the TR news is accurate. They might just want to concentrate on 1 works team and another tier 1 team that lets them put actual Renault badge in the team name as well as all feedback they need.

This situation appears to be RedBull's own creation at the moment. We still dont know as many details as we need to really understand what is going on. Wait and watch.

IF Alonso decides to leave Mclaren, I wonder if they would move him there? Mclaren seem to like their own choice of drivers though, and Alonso will be needed for the sponsorship he should bring.

Does anyone know, or have a link etc, what is the difference between (the Illien modified) TAG and the factory Renault?

I would assume mapping and cooling could be Red Bulls own responsibility, but I also seem to remember something about a redesigned head? Red Bull have their own facilities, have they developed a different engine from the same base, or would they have to be the same as the one accepted by FIA from Renault? It is a different name after all.