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Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

Poison Revisions

So poisons have...issues. Everyone knows that. At least when PCs use them anyway. Low, non-scaling DCs, sometimes negligible effects, and the least cost-effective items in the whole game. That's why I'm going to mess with stuff right now and make them better!

First of all, seven epic* feats that will make poison better.

*Epic as in Maka Albarn infected by the madness, not epic as in 21st level and higher

Toxic Expertise
With a well-aimed strike, you are able to deliver a toxic blow to a weak spot, and by the time the creature's immune system reaches the wound, it's too late.Prerequisites: Int 13, Poison Use class featureBenefit: When making an attack roll with a poisoned weapon or ammunition, you may take a penalty on your attack roll, up to your Base Attack Bonus (maximum penalty of -5). If you use this feat, and your attack hits and deals damage, the DC of the poison you deliver increases by an amount equal to the penalty you took (to a maximum of +5) and the damage the poison deals to a creature's ability scores (if any) increases by an amount equal to the penalty you took (to a maximum of +5).

Toxic Power Attack
With a heavyset blow or a particularly difficult shot, you are able to inflict a gaping wound in your opponent that spreads the toxin inside them like wildfire, causing much more effect than normal.Prerequisites: Str 13, Poison Use class featureBenefit: When making an attack roll with a poisoned weapon or ammunition, you may take a penalty to your attack roll, up to your BAB. If you do, and your attack hits and deals damage, the ability damage your poison deals to the creature (if any) increases by +1 per point of BAB penalty you took.

Toxic Conservation
Your experience with poisons has taught you how to use your limited resources wisely.Prerequisites: Int 13, Poison Use class featureBenefit: When you apply a dose of poison to your weapon, that weapon stays intoxicated for the next ten successful attacks it is used to make, up to a limit of 24 hours. (24 hours after the toxin is applied to the weapon, all remaining uses of it are consumed) Alternatively, if you apply a dose of poison to ammunition, you may now apply it to 50 pieces of ammunition, rather than one.

Maximize PoisonPrerequisites: Int 15, Poison Use class feature, Toxic ConservationBenefit: When you make a melee attack roll with a poisoned weapon that has at least four uses of poison left on it, you may declare you are using this feat. If your attack hits and deals damage, the variable ability damage that your poison deals (if any) is treated as if you rolled the maximum result (1d6 Str damage would become 6 Str damage, for example). The benefits of this feat apply to both the initial and secondary damage.

This feat consumes 3 extra uses of the poison. If you miss with the attack you declared, those three uses are lost. (If you hit, you consume four uses of poison total)

Empower PoisonPrerequisites: Int 15, Poison Use class feature, Toxic ConservationBenefit: When you make a melee attack roll with a poisoned weapon that has at least three uses of poison left on it, you may declare you are using this feat. If your attack hits and deals damage, you may deal 50% extra variable ability damage (if your poison does any). For example, 1d6 Strength damage would become 1d6 + 1/2 1d6 Strength damage. If you use this feat in conjunction with the Maximize Poison feat, you do not maximize the extra damage from this feat. (1d6 Str damage would become 6+ 1/2 1d6 Str damage). The benefits of this feat apply to both the initial and secondary damage.

This feat consumes 2 extra uses of the poison. If you miss with the attack you declared, those two uses are lost. (If you hit, you consume three uses of poison total).

Heighten PoisonPrerequisites: Int 15, Poison Use class feature, Toxic ConservationBenefit: When you make a melee attack roll with a poisoned weapon that has at least two uses of poison left on it, you may declare you are using this feat. If your attack hits and deals damage, the DC for the saving throw to resist your poison increases by an amount of your choice (up to the number of poison uses you had left on the weapon -1). For example, if you had 10 uses of Barbarian's Curse left when you hit with the poisoned weapon, you could increase the DC up to 34. The benefits of this feat apply to both the initial and secondary save DCs.

This feat consumes 1 extra use of the poison per +1 to the DC. You must decide how many uses to risk before you make your attack roll. If you miss, those uses are lost. (If you hit, you consume those uses of poison, plus the one needed to actually deliver the poison)

Quicken PoisonPrerequisites: Int 17, Poison Use class feature, Toxic ConservationBenefit: When making a melee attack roll with a poisoned weapon that has at least five uses of poison left on it, you may declare you are using this feat. If you hit and deal damage, the creature must save against or take the secondary effect of the poison immediately (along with the initial effect, each gets its own saving throw).

This feat consumes four extra uses of the poison. If your attack misses, those uses are wasted. (If your attack hits, you lose five uses of the poison total).Normal: A creature must save against or suffer the secondary effects of a poison 1 minute after it receives the effects of the first.

You take a minute to speak power into a weapon as you apply the poison to it. Immediately upon finishing the casting, the weapon takes on an unhealthy colored tinge. From then on, that weapon is treated as always having that poison applied to it. This poison cannot be effected by any feats or other abilities to enhance the poison's save DC after the spell is cast; any such effects must be applied during the poison application of the casting, and each DC increasing effect adds 2 rounds to the casting time. This spell may never be stacked with another spell effecting the same poison. This spell may only be cast on a weapon once, and does not stack with any other poisons applied to the weapon. If you wish to apply a new poison to the weapon, the original casting of this spell must first be dispelled.

Material Component: The poison to be applied to the weapon.
EXP Cost: 50 times the total DC of the poison.

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Cloth Smell Like Chloroform to You?

*Epic as in Maka Albarn infected by the madness, not epic as in 21st level and higher

Hehe, I'm actually kinda surprised we don't see more anime references around the site.

Is there any way we could have at least one poison that just deals straight-up HP damage? I know it's a horrible argument, but but that's what most real posions do; kill some one (relatively) slowly over time.

It wouldn't be the go-to choice obviously for a pitched battle where you keep fighting until everything is dead, but it seems like it would be a nice tool for PCs to use or have used on them, if your team is planning an assassination, is using hit-and-run tactics, suicide attacks, or just trying to be sublte.

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Cloth Smell Like Chloroform to You?

1) Feats are like precious jewels, rare things to be cherished & traded away only for the most worthy of prizes. Spending feats on poison-related boosts is... inefficient, to put it mildly.

2) Those new poisons very radically in power, from the nigh-useless to the insanely-powerful. Sickening & Weakening Toxin are simply not worth their price, like most published poisons. On the other hand, Rogue-B-Gone (whose name is hard to say without cringing) might as well be called Dragon-B-Gone, because its ability to end encounters is scary; Wizard's Bane is just as brutal (seriously, what mage is gonna make a DC30 Fortitude save? that's just cruel). I'd suggest evening out the power levels, or simply pricing them more appropriately.

3) For a look at how the Hourglass of Zihaja handles a poison revision, check it out here.

4) I just noticed that we also have a new poison named Wizard's Bane that targets Intelligence. Huh, small world...

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Cloth Smell Like Chloroform to You?

Originally Posted by Zeta Kai

1)
2) Those new poisons very radically in power, from the nigh-useless to the insanely-powerful. Sickening & Weakening Toxin are simply not worth their price, like most published poisons. On the other hand, Rogue-B-Gone (whose name is hard to say without cringing) might as well be called Dragon-B-Gone, because its ability to end encounters is scary; Wizard's Bane is just as brutal (seriously, what mage is gonna make a DC30 Fortitude save? that's just cruel). I'd suggest evening out the power levels, or simply pricing them more appropriately.

Alright, so how would you suggest I price them then?

Edit: Also, your remark about Dragons is incorrect. I don't know what age category of dragons you've been using, but from Young Adult and on pretty much every dragon in the SRD has a 50% or higher chance of making a DC 24 Fortitude save, without any gear or spellcasting help. And they all have 10 Dexterity, so unless they fail the save and you roll max damage (a 10% chance) they won't be paralyzed. (Waiting for the 2nd dose to kick in in 10 rounds does not constitute "ending an encounter")

Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2012-01-13 at 03:17 PM.

Awesome hell knight avatar by gr8artist!

Originally Posted by TheEmperor

I take back my gratefulness for NeoSeraphi being DM here.
I swear he's Asmodeus's avatar on this earth.

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

Is that were that reference was originally from? Soul eater?
I thought it was... Hmmm... hold on... either Red Dwarf or... hmm, can't think of it. It wasn't Get Smart or The Good Guys, but it was a show or movie like something between them. Or maybe... No, it wasn't House, but the main character was something like that.

Oh, well, doesn't matter.

Toxic Drain is pretty nasty; 1d12 or 2d8 might be more appropriate for that DC.

Got any ideas for poisons with good effects? I mean, it will have a nasty effect, but either it's initial or secondary damage does something beneficial, not that these effects aren't effective.

So, one might heal some hitpoint damage (great for when you're buddy is at -4 and falling), but deals a nasty hit to con as secondary damage, or something else (something worse?). Another might knock you unconscious (but stable) instantly (or some other effect), but it's secondary effect is bringing you back around, and giving you some boost (Like +4 con or str for 2d4 hours, or a Rage effect, or something).

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

Originally Posted by flabort

Is that were that reference was originally from? Soul eater?
I thought it was... Hmmm... hold on... either Red Dwarf or... hmm, can't think of it. It wasn't Get Smart or The Good Guys, but it was a show or movie like something between them. Or maybe... No, it wasn't House, but the main character was something like that.

He's actually talking about the "Maka Albarn madness epic" thing, not the title. The title is from Family Guy.

Toxic Drain is pretty nasty; 1d12 or 2d8 might be more appropriate for that DC.

Sure, I can drop it down to 2d8.

Got any ideas for poisons with good effects? I mean, it will have a nasty effect, but either it's initial or secondary damage does something beneficial, not that these effects aren't effective.

So, one might heal some hitpoint damage (great for when you're buddy is at -4 and falling), but deals a nasty hit to con as secondary damage, or something else (something worse?). Another might knock you unconscious (but stable) instantly (or some other effect), but it's secondary effect is bringing you back around, and giving you some boost (Like +4 con or str for 2d4 hours, or a Rage effect, or something).

These are great, though.

Interesting, like festering anger and vile rigidity, but as poisons, huh? I'll have to come back to that tomorrow.

Awesome hell knight avatar by gr8artist!

Originally Posted by TheEmperor

I take back my gratefulness for NeoSeraphi being DM here.
I swear he's Asmodeus's avatar on this earth.

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

So, how can you explain these feats being used? I mean, if you were to describe them being used by a character in the game. Is it using a weapon in a certain way or hitting someone in a certain spot?

I assume you're referring to the Meta-Poison feats. To describe it simply, your character is making an extended attack that allows more of the toxin to be used than a normal attack, such as dragging your blade along the creature's skin, or twisting your mace so that more of the poison coating it is delivered. (for piercing weapons, it would be sticking the weapon in deeper)

Awesome hell knight avatar by gr8artist!

Originally Posted by TheEmperor

I take back my gratefulness for NeoSeraphi being DM here.
I swear he's Asmodeus's avatar on this earth.

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

You mention weak non-scaling DCs is a problem with poisons, but have you considered scaling the DCs like most other abilities work, rather than making base dcs higher (like that 30 DC).

Like maybe have a base value between 11 and 20 for the poison, but add the crafter's int mod to the DC.

That wasn't part of the request. The request was "make some better poisons, and perhaps some feats or class features for a class that would help overcome immunities and etc". I wasn't asked to change how poisons themselves work, so I was careful not to do so.

Awesome hell knight avatar by gr8artist!

Originally Posted by TheEmperor

I take back my gratefulness for NeoSeraphi being DM here.
I swear he's Asmodeus's avatar on this earth.

You take a minute to speak power into a weapon as you apply the poison to it. Immediately upon finishing the casting, the weapon takes on an unhealthy colored tinge. From then on, that weapon is treated as always having that poison applied to it. This poison cannot be effected by any spells, feats or other abilities to enhance the poison's save DC after the spell is cast; any such effects must be applied during the poison application of the casting, and each DC increasing effect adds 2 rounds to the casting time. This spell may only be cast on a weapon once, and does not stack with any other poisons applied to the weapon. If you wish to apply a new poison to the weapon, the original casting of this spell must first be dispelled.

Material Component: The poison to be applied to the weapon and 1000XP.

The value of this varies wildly depending on how strong the strongest poison you can provide is... maybe make the XP value twice the GP value of the poison?

*I do TRY to do this whenever I remember a relevant homebrew that interests me (no, I am not going to try to cross-link all the monk fixes). Most of the time this means linking my own work (since I can easily find the links to that). In this case it is about a 50/50 split of my own work and that of others. I am mostly doing this for posterity and certainly do not intend to distract from conversation regarding the PrC in the original post of this thread.

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

Originally Posted by DracoDei

The value of this varies wildly depending on how strong the strongest poison you can provide is... maybe make the XP value twice the GP value of the poison?

That's actually a good idea, although with the cost of most the poisons in the official rulebooks, maybe only EXP equal to the original cost? That would balance well with the prices NeoSeraphi posted on the poisons here. What are your thoughts on that?

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

Regarding the spell:
The base casting time is long enough that the casting time increases are not going to make much of a difference in most cases. The fact it can be dispelled is a negative... XP cost is higher than for most Permanency stuff (which is the big thing that Dispelling has a long term impact on the character with). It would be pretty broken (especially with the reduced XP cost you propose) in combination with my Enhance Poison spell. Perhaps if the cost of the material component for my spell was added to the cost of the poison when calculating the XP cost of your spell...

I would like to note that I haven't looked over the poisons or feats in this thread much. I will say that the DCs seem high enough that I would THINK that most characters who could make them a reasonable amount of the time would also have access to sources of immunity to poison. Which is to say that unless one of the feats does something about that, then I would say that they are dependent for their utility on characters (PC or NPC) with more class levels than HD on some other source of bypassing at least some of the sources of immunity. At least one of the PrCs I linked to, plus my spell are good examples of such.

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

Changed the EXP cost to 50 times the save DC of the poison, and added a line banning it from stacking with other spells effecting the same poison. How's that look to people?

I THINK the EXP change is a step backwards. The DC is only one of many factors that contribute to a poison's effectiveness. The cost sums up many factors. I could be wrong if the utility of that spell is mostly tied to the DC, but I don't see any reason to think it is.

As for non-stacking... it is a not an elegant solution, but it is effective.

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

I chose DC instead of cost because poison prices change from game to game. I typically make poisons extremely rare in my games, and thus much more valuable. And in the end, the DC is the most important part of the poison. High DC equates to high effectiveness/success rate, and thus higher EXP cost. It also avoids things like having to spend 18,000 EXP on one spell, as would be required for at least one of NeoSeraphi's fine poisons up there. Heck, I can't think of any non-epic spell that burns more than 2000EXP off the top of my head, and only a couple of Epic ones that break the 10000 mark. Even at high levels 1500 or more EXP is a fairly big loss for one spell.

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

I chose DC instead of cost because poison prices change from game to game. I typically make poisons extremely rare in my games, and thus much more valuable.

Which would make this spell much more powerful, since, among other things, it turns 1 dose into a very large number of doses. Not seeing any reason not to keep the cost proportional to the price.

Also, I don't care how important the DC is compared to other factors, the GP cost sums up more factors, and the other factors ARE of some importance. 1d6 Con damage is less powerful than 1d10 Con drain, no two ways about it. Of course, you could have a setting where you price the poisons based on their rarity (as figured out from world-building) rather than effectiveness, but I certainly don't know of any such pricing scheme (Hourglass could be such a scheme, but I haven't read that part).

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

IMO Toxic Expertise should not increase the damage, or else it would be overlap and/or outshine Toxic Power Attack.
Moreover, you should consider weather Toxic Power Attack should be applied to ammunition: you break the parallelism with Power Attack, is it intended?

This said, here my lil contribution.

Toxic PenetrationPrerequisite: Craft (poison) 15 ranksBenefit: Whenever applying or using a poison, you may spend a full round action to enhance the toxin so it is still effective against opponents normally immune to it.
To do so, make a Craft (poison) check against the DC listed below. Failure means that the poison is applied but it will not affect the target creature. If you fail by 5 or more, you are not aware of the failure.
Success means that the poison does half his normal damage to the target (minimum damage 1). If the poison doesn't do damage, the target has a bonus of +4 to the saving throw.Special: You have to be aware of the target's immunity and its source. Knowing the immunity allows you to "go random" and try to counter one type of immunity you state in advance. Poisons that damage an attribute cannot function even with a success if the target creature has no score in that particular attribute

Re: Request: Hey, Does this Rag Smell Like Chloroform to You?

I like these a lot. I've always found that poison is a great concept that just becomes lackluster, too complicated, or too troublesome to deal with. There's a player in my current campaign playing a rogue/shinobi that wants to work with poisons, but I told him to read up on it first to understand why I was hesitant. I might tell him to read this and use it if he wants.

"By 'for fun' do you mean 'to kill us?'" - Me, about the DM rolling a d20 several times for no known reason.