Csonicgo said:
Any material that attemps to refute the overwhelming success of vaccination usually resorts to cherry-picking and anti-science nonsense, or an anecdotal datum that can't even be verified.

Ironically, an employee of an actual pharmaceutical firm would avoid such statements and, on the opposite, after advice from the company's legal team, would leave a lot of ambiguity and leeway in his statements.

Why? Because as with any drug, even the oldest and most well-researched ones, there's ALWAYS a percentage of patients reporting side effects, more or less severe. I don't know how many vaccines fall into the "sometimes deadly" category (yup, I've seen that on lists of KNOWN side effects supplied WITH THE DRUG ITSELF) but stuff like bloody vomit or diahrrea, high fever, favoring certain types of cancer etc. are not child's play either.

The catch is that with vaccines, one is taking a small [citation needed] risk in exchange for a much greater medical "value" (immunity), not entirely unlike an X-ray: you accept a certain dose of ionizing radiation (which is ALWAYS harmful, and effects are cumulative), in exchange for the added diagnostic value. As with many things, it's yet another tradeoff, a tradeoff some people chose not to make.

Side effects are well documented, otherwise such a substance wouldn't end up distributed. If you are prone to developing some more notable side effect, there are factors that help discovering so. Every pill/drug has possible side effects, you are acknowledged about them when buying them if you ask and even side effects of combining pill you're buying with entirely different pill, because metabolism of each substance is documented down to the most simplistic detail on a chemistry basis. Also, something like diarrhoea is expectable when you're trying to cure a disease with notable fatality rate. Also, when pacient reports side effect, in how many of such cases actual side effect of substance really took place instead of an effect of disease they are trying to cure? Really uncountable amount, I suppose

There are some astronomically improbable side effects of substances, one in millions, for example complete skin necrosis. A year or so back there was a case when a substance for daily hygiene caused fatal allergic reaction. However, these cases are extraordinary and lifesaving substances won't be removed from market after potentially saving hundreds of thousands people. It takes more for substance to be removed, considering that it had to go through years (10 or so, not sure atm) of testing on animals and human volunteers. At most it will make clueless activists busy for a while.

So yeah, if you're worried your gene pool won a lottery of lotteries or can't cope with relatively harmless side effects in comparision to potentially deadly and painful diseases, don't get vaccination.

Maes said:
What tax dollars? AFAIK there's not mandatory health insurance in the USA (edit: Aussie? Dunno how's the situation there), so if the poor sod was uninsured, at most he'll create a road cleanup bill, not a life-long hospital bill. Even in countries with mandatory insurance, life-long vegetative states are usually not covered.

When they researched helmet laws, they found that bikers don't usually die from accidents. Instead, they become vegetables and therefore a lifelong burden on society. It's true that some insurance provider would likely drop them - in which case, Medicaid is the only option left.

...but NOT being vaccinated is NOT one of them, at least not versus VACCINATED people,

For various reasons, e.g. allergies, some people can't get vaccines. They shouldn't be put at risk.

Maes said:
Not convincing. Very weak and roundabout points, full of "ifs" and "maybes", and perhaps only relevant on a scale exceeding a single human's lifetime, which is why I don't "get" them at all.

i can't believe how dismissive you're being while presenting just a bunch of bullshit yourself. IT'S MY FRIEDOOM. no it's not, you're a potential threat to me, so screw you. those african immigrants will give you all kinds of diseases when they stab you with unclean knives and violate your butt, then your special genes will mutate them into superaids and you kill all of us. also the government will pay the bill if you get sick and can't pay anymore, so you're wasting people's money. i don't know how yanks do this.

anyways, isn't immunization against many types of diseases mandatory in greece? or in greek army at the least? like in civilized europe? oh and let's not forget - it's often the stupid retarded parents who decide for their children not to get the shot. stupid, stupid, stupid. darwin award idiocy covered by a mantle of freedom and personal responsibility garbage. and it's almost always laymen spouting it (can't say there aren't retarded doctors as well).

dew said:
it's often the stupid retarded parents who decide for their children not to get the shot. stupid, stupid, stupid. darwin award idiocy covered by a mantle of freedom and personal responsibility garbage. and it's almost always laymen spouting it (can't say there aren't retarded doctors as well).

My kid has autism! It couldn't possibly be becasue of my perfect genes!

If there is one backlash to the expanding circle of autism diagnosis has caused, it's this anti-vax bullshit.

When my father was a child, there were all kinds of socially and mentally hindered children. But back in his day, they just called them retards.

every year we vaccinate millions upon millions of old people who are mostly vegetable and pump them full of antibiotics so granny can shit the bed til christmas. you want human incubators, you've got them. every year we scour and boil and chemically assault germs and, hurr hurr, the bacteria is becoming immune to everything we can throw at it.

vaccination is not the magic bullet. stronger human immune systems are better, and the way to develop those immune systems is to stop pussing out and reaching for the antibiotics every time your guts go wrong. the human race will thank you for it eventually.

Look, when you're born, you're just a helpless meat sack that has basically no immune system. The necessary vaccination of newborn is a prevention from the worst sicknesses which were fatal in past and could be potentially now as well (pertussis, diptheria, tuberculosis, etc.). Your main source of immunity comes from mother's milk and own body which behaves according to enviroment. There were theories in past that babies are supposed to be living only in sterile, bacteria-free enviroments. That was the cause of being constantly sick during adultery and the rest of worthless lives because immune system didn't evolve enough to withstand sicknesses. Now it's advised to keep babies in dirtier enviroments so immune system has microorganisms to kill and therefore evolve. However, it shouldn't be way too sickness-ridden enviroment or you could cause a state to children known as exitus.

darknation said:
vaccination is not the magic bullet. stronger human immune systems are better, and the way to develop those immune systems is to stop pussing out and reaching for the antibiotics every time your guts go wrong. the human race will thank you for it eventually.

Viruses and bacteria are two very different things. Just becasue you refrain from antibiotics, that doesn't build your immune system to better fend off viruses. The problem with viruses we vaccinate for, is that they are either fast acting - they damage the body at a ludicrous speed - or our immunities are incapable of finding them without synthetic identification (vaccine).

You're sounding kind eugenic-y.

darknation said:
then why all the bawwing about teh children?

The fatality rate for children a century ago will tell you why we bring up "teh children." Nature is very cruel to children, but I don't know your complete stance on the issue, so maybe you want kids to die from natural exposure to help create a stronger human race.

Technician said:
The fatality rate for children a century ago will tell you why we bring up "teh children." Nature is very cruel to children, but I don't know your complete stance on the issue, so maybe you want kids to die from natural exposure to help create a stronger human race.

not only that - if dn hates children, he should be extremely pro-vaccine. the most common trick to get your children to survive diseases a century ago was to spawn a truckload of them and pray for some of them lucking out. that's a lot of extra children to hate!

dew said:
IT'S MY FRIEDOOM. no it's not, you're a potential threat to me, so screw you. those african immigrants will give you all kinds of diseases when they stab you with unclean knives and violate your butt, then your special genes will mutate them into superaids and you kill all of us. also the government will pay the bill if you get sick and can't pay anymore, so you're wasting people's money. i don't know how yanks do this.

It's safe to assume that the main immediate victims of those epidemic were mainly those not vaccinated against them, yes? It falls neatly into my "they can't harm anyone but themselves" case. And I mean that every non-vaccinee harmed JUST HIMSELF. Their majority of their fellow victims were also non-vaccinees, who also harmed JUST THEMSELVES. There's no epidemic, just N isolated cases, so to speak ;-)

What I really don't like about this "non-vaccinees infect EVERYONE!" fallacy/theory, is that only some specific vaccinees (those informed of the vaccine but actively refusing it) are treated as is they were some kind of super-anointers, responsible for THE ENTIRE epidemic, while the many more uninformed and unvaccined victims somehow are judged less harshly. The "damned (you) if you don't, damned (you) if THEY don't" fallacy.

Maes said:
It's safe to assume that the main immediate victims of those epidemic were mainly those not vaccinated against them, yes? It falls neatly into my "they can't harm anyone but themselves" case. And I mean that every non-vaccinee harmed JUST HIMSELF. Their majority of their fellow victims were also non-vaccinees, who also harmed JUST THEMSELVES. There's no epidemic, just N isolated cases, so to speak ;-)

Okay, so you have been told repeatedly about how people who stubbornly refuse to be immunized become breeding ground from which a vaccine-resistant strain will eventually emerge, but you still insist that it doesn't matter because it's not immediate.

This approach to planning must explain several of Greece's political and financial troubles.

Maes said:
What I really don't like about this "non-vaccinees infect EVERYONE!" fallacy/theory, is that only some specific vaccinees (those informed of the vaccine but actively refusing it) are treated as is they were some kind of super-anointers, responsible for THE ENTIRE epidemic, while the many more uninformed and unvaccined victims somehow are judged less harshly. The "damned (you) if you don't, damned (you) if THEY don't" fallacy.

People who do dumb things despite having been warned not to, and who are encouraging other people to do the same dumb things, are judged more harshly than those who do the same dumb things because they don't know better.

Gez said:
Okay, so you have been told repeatedly about how people who stubbornly refuse to be immunized become breeding ground from which a vaccine-resistant strain will eventually emerge, but you still insist that it doesn't matter because it's not immediate.

And then Maes was a breeding ground. ;-)

Offtopic: Is "Maes" supposed to be pronounced as "Mah Ass"? ... Just wondering, really.

Gez said:
Okay, so you have been told repeatedly about how people who stubbornly refuse to be immunized become breeding ground from which a vaccine-resistant strain will eventually emerge

I have, and I still consider it a very weak argument: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and to bring evidence for that you'd need some proof of a SuperStrain (TM) developed as a consequence. Is there some peer-reviewed research on that or is it only a hypothesis? Sorry, but it sounds like a variation of the Butterfly effect.

Gez said:
, but you still insist that it doesn't matter because it's not immediate.

The fuck I care if 10 generations down the road they encounter SuperStrain as a result of some random ass individual's choice today. They'll probably have all gone into space or something :-p

Gez said:
This approach to planning must explain several of Greece's political and financial troubles.

To be fair, the "planning" that was followed was certainly no subtle butterfly whose effects none could foresee: it was more like a super-garbage truck roaring down the hill. But as long as everybody got a ride, it was A-OK *rolleyes*

Gez said:
People who do dumb things despite having been warned not to, and who are encouraging other people to do the same dumb things, are judged more harshly than those who do the same dumb things because they don't know better.

So all those parents worrying about others' non-vaccinated kids at school really consider ALL of these alleged future "Super Strain (TM)" effects and thus chastize those that willingly suppress vaccination for their children? Interesting, so all of a sudden, concerned parents become bio-futurologists? I was not aware of that (in my best Wayne's World imitation). Geeeeeee, I must have really have underestimated them! [/sarcasm]

j4rio said:
Offtopic: Is "Maes" supposed to be pronounced as "Mah Ass"? ... Just wondering, really.

It can be pronounced in any way it helps you deal better with your own inadequacies and frustrations.

Maes said:
I have, and I still consider it a very weak argument: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and to bring evidence for that you'd need some proof of a SuperStrain (TM) developed as a consequence. Is there some peer-reviewed research on that or is it only a hypothesis? Sorry, but it sounds like a variation of the Butterfly effect.

I don't have the time to reply to everything you posted, but here's a few things to look at.

While those articles were a good read, none of them actually mentioned vaccines anywhere: they were about resistance to antiviral drugs (which is not the same thing as a vaccine) and about how a super bacterial infection developed/spread in a hospital due to (presumably) antibiotics resistance (again, antibiotics are not vaccines).

And neither case is reconducible to a "human super-breeder" scenario as a first probable cause.

As for favorable breeding grounds for viruses and diseases....how about this one?

Edit: heh, speaking of "breeders", how could I ever forget Bareback Exchange. Talk about "breeding" new strains ;-)

[edit: I had inlined some pics of disgusting POZ confessions here, but I figured out I'd better keep it SFW...if you really want to read them, follow the link (goes to Something Awful)]

...and you still worry about some kid not getting its shots? Get outta here.

every year we vaccinate millions upon millions of old people who are mostly vegetable and pump them full of antibiotics so granny can shit the bed til christmas. you want human incubators, you've got them. every year we scour and boil and chemically assault germs and, hurr hurr, the bacteria is becoming immune to everything we can throw at it.

vaccination is not the magic bullet. stronger human immune systems are better, and the way to develop those immune systems is to stop pussing out and reaching for the antibiotics every time your guts go wrong. the human race will thank you for it eventually.

Maes said:
What tax dollars? AFAIK there's not mandatory health insurance in the USA (edit: Aussie? Dunno how's the situation there), so if the poor sod was uninsured, at most he'll create a road cleanup bill, not a life-long hospital bill.

Depends on the circumstances of their accident. If he's struck by a motorist, the unfortunate driver's insurer will probably pick up the tab. If he hits a wombat that's crossing the road at night his immediate family will most likely be expected to care for him, with the state stepping in as a last resort. (I'm assuming rider=cyclist. In Australia you've no choice but to wear a helmet when riding a motorbike.)

QED. Therefore, Alice did what she thought was best and survived. Bob did what he thought was best, "played", and lost. End of story. This does not affect Alice in any way.

What about Alice's unborn child? She was relying on Bob remaining gainfully employed so they could afford to send the kid (who'll never know his/her father) to a decent private school.

every year we vaccinate millions upon millions of old people who are mostly vegetable and pump them full of antibiotics so granny can shit the bed til christmas. you want human incubators, you've got them. every year we scour and boil and chemically assault germs and, hurr hurr, the bacteria is becoming immune to everything we can throw at it.

vaccination is not the magic bullet. stronger human immune systems are better, and the way to develop those immune systems is to stop pussing out and reaching for the antibiotics every time your guts go wrong. the human race will thank you for it eventually.

Antibiotics are not vaccines. Vaccines are preventative measures so you WONT have to pump people full of antibiotics so granny can shit the bed til christmas.

If you work in healthcare you should know this. Getting dysentery or measles/tetanus/rubella on The Oregon Trail wasn't just a fun gameplay mechanic. That shit actually happened. Hundreds upon hundreds died that way. A way we can now prevent.

While vaccination is legit, they are being heavily advertised by the same oligolopy that want to ban guns/the internet/the free market/supports NDAA, etc, and heavily demonized by alex jones et al. With an economic system that basically artificially selects more and more evil people over time who can use their wealth and tax and money printing etc. as leverage for things like science-for-hire and having access to classified technology that's 40 years advanced to what they allow everyone else to have... where was I going with this run on sentence... um, the question remains whether the vaccines are truly vaccines, or whether they are trojan horses disguised as vaccines "for the children" like usual, probably with false flag illnesses deliberately spread as an excuse for mandatory vaccines similar to using patsies to stage shootings as an excuse to ban guns; problem, reaction, solution; full spectrum dominance. The age of hacking computers is over, enter the new age of hacking biology. Nanobots/ genetic hacks. Face it, humans are obsolete except for as sexual slaves to the elites until they learn how to manipulate the pleasure centers of their brain directly, that's what the singularity will be a supernova of evil narcissism. So I'm just saying the vaccines probably have latent programs that will wait for viral saturation or a specific date to trigger code that will turn the populace into sexual slaves for the elites.
And notice how this medical tyranny piggybacks on educational tyranny. If you go to a compulsory school, you have to have vaccines. Its not a law but just kind of an.. enforced rule we made up. And you have to go to school so... But if the weapon of law doesn't work, there's always hijacking whatever broken shadows of the ecosystem are left, such as using mosquitos to force everyone to take alleged vaccines, a strategy championed by bill gates.
Or if vaccines actually are still vaccines, then all this advertising for them has the purpose of making the populace accustomed/desensitized to having things forced into their body, a deliberate slippery slope to pave way for an evil future. Pretty soon the elites will rape whoever they want and say oh my penis was just giving you your dose of mandatory vaccines, next! And the populace will be so decimated by a monopoly of jersey show-like media that they won't be able to know any better. Probably language itself will be reserved to the elites.

gggmork said:
While vaccination is legit, they are being heavily advertised by the same oligolopy that want to ban guns/the internet/the free market/supports NDAA, etc, and heavily demonized by alex jones et al. With an economic system that basically artificially selects more and more evil people over time who can use their wealth and tax and money printing etc. as leverage for things like science-for-hire and having access to classified technology that's 40 years advanced to what they allow everyone else to have... where was I going with this run on sentence... um, the question remains whether the vaccines are truly vaccines, or whether they are trojan horses disguised as vaccines "for the children" like usual, probably with false flag illnesses deliberately spread as an excuse for mandatory vaccines similar to using patsies to stage shootings as an excuse to ban guns; problem, reaction, solution; full spectrum dominance. The age of hacking computers is over, enter the new age of hacking biology. Nanobots/ genetic hacks. Face it, humans are obsolete except for as sexual slaves to the elites until they learn how to manipulate the pleasure centers of their brain directly, that's what the singularity will be a supernova of evil narcissism. So I'm just saying the vaccines probably have latent programs that will wait for viral saturation or a specific date to trigger code that will turn the populace into sexual slaves for the elites.
And notice how this medical tyranny piggybacks on educational tyranny. If you go to a compulsory school, you have to have vaccines. Its not a law but just kind of an.. enforced rule we made up. And you have to go to school so... But if the weapon of law doesn't work, there's always hijacking whatever broken shadows of the ecosystem are left, such as using mosquitos to force everyone to take alleged vaccines, a strategy championed by bill gates.
Or if vaccines actually are still vaccines, then all this advertising for them has the purpose of making the populace accustomed/desensitized to having things forced into their body, a deliberate slippery slope to pave way for an evil future. Pretty soon the elites will rape whoever they want and say oh my penis was just giving you your dose of mandatory vaccines, next! And the populace will be so decimated by a monopoly of jersey show-like media that they won't be able to know any better. Probably language itself will be reserved to the elites.

I love this post. The sad part is that someone out there believes this.