You know, his defense attorneys weren't arguing that he didn't do it, just that the way they were killing him sucked and was painful. If he actually did what they said, he raped and murdered a young, pregnant woman. I have a fairly painless way to get rid of these people if that's the only thing that is bothering them.

devildog123:You know, his defense attorneys weren't arguing that he didn't do it, just that the way they were killing him sucked and was painful. If he actually did what they said, he raped and murdered a young, pregnant woman. I have a fairly painless way to get rid of these people if that's the only thing that is bothering them.

I don't even particularly care if the way they killed him sucked and was painful, so long as it wasn't some egregiously drawn out torture session.

A few minutes of painful existence before you actually die? No different than many heart attack victims. Doesn't seem particularly cruel or unusual.

Theaetetus:dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

The whole thing is hearsay anyways.

Yep, and while it may fall under an exception, because in effect it was a "death bed" statement, it's still the statement of a person who had so little consideration of his fellow man that he raped and murdered a pregnant woman.

But even if every thing he said was completely true, I still think it would be protected, as it is "speech" intended to effect change to a matter of public policy.

dittybopper:Theaetetus: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

The whole thing is hearsay anyways.

Yep, and while it may fall under an exception, because in effect it was a "death bed" statement, it's still the statement of a person who had so little consideration of his fellow man that he raped and murdered a pregnant woman.

It was the day before, according to the article, so it wasn't imminent death.

Also, from TFA:The Office of the Public Defender said Robert Lowe, one of the attorneys representing inmate Dennis McGuire, was back at work Monday after an internal review failed to substantiate the allegation.

So, Subby's headline is late.

But even if every thing he said was completely true, I still think it would be protected, as it is "speech" intended to effect change to a matter of public policy.First Amendment protects exaggeration. Fark is proof of that.

Sure, but it may be an ethics violation. He wouldn't be subject to criminal prosecution, but dismissal or sanctions? The bar for the Bar is lower.

"He wants me to put on this big show in front of my kids, all right when I'm dying!" McGuire is reported as having told one guard. "I ain't gonna do this. It's about me and my kids, not him and his cause!"

RedPhoenix122:Theaetetus: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

The whole thing is hearsay anyways.

Plus, even if this whole thing was true, we don't know how much was intentional theatrics and how much was actual writhing in pain.

That's what the pro-death penalty people would have us believe, yes. However, we do know this: either it was actual writhing in pain, or the tranquilizer failed such that he could do "intentional theatrics".In other words, on the surface, it looks like this rebuts the people opposed to the death penalty... but in actuality, it only harms the argument that the drugs were effective at sedating him.

Theaetetus:That's what the pro-death penalty people would have us believe, yes. However, we do know this: either it was actual writhing in pain, or the tranquilizer failed such that he could do "intentional theatrics".In other words, on the surface, it looks like this rebuts the people opposed to the death penalty... but in actuality, it only harms the argument that the drugs were effective at sedating him.

I'm anti-death penalty across the board, but let me tell you something: I don't really care if it hurts. 10 minutes or so of pain, yeah whatever, not a huge deal. The waiting, the endless appeals, the dates coming and sometimes going, that's FAR more torturous than a few minutes of discomfort and pain. That and a whole host of other reasons I oppose it. If we MUST have the death penalty, I think it should have an even higher burden of proof, only the clearly guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt should be taken to the gallows and hanged immediately after that guilt is determined.

dittybopper:Theaetetus: dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

The whole thing is hearsay anyways.

Yep, and while it may fall under an exception, because in effect it was a "death bed" statement, it's still the statement of a person who had so little consideration of his fellow man that he raped and murdered a pregnant woman.

But even if every thing he said was completely true, I still think it would be protected, as it is "speech" intended to effect change to a matter of public policy.

First Amendment protects exaggeration. Fark is proof of that.

So if it was the inmate making that decision on his own, that would be an open and shut case.Does the fact that it was the attorney's idea rather than the inmates make a difference, legally? Could be used as abusing a position of power over him. Though I don't know if there's technically anything wrong with that or not.

Let's go full tinfoil hat and assume the lawyer intentionally threw the case so he could get this guy onto death row to make his political statement.

dittybopper:Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

It's not if he voluntarily told people. The attorney has to protect the privilege, but the client is under no such orders. Sort of like my therapist/doctors can't go talking about me, but I can repeat the whole session/appointment word for word to my friend if I am so inclined. They have to keep my privacy, but if I make it common knowledge or tell people what happened repeatedly, it changes things a bit.

What really comes into play here, I think, is it's hearsay, since there is no way a dead man can confirm or deny that he actually said it.

"He wants me to put on this big show in front of my kids, all right when I'm dying!" McGuire is reported as having told one guard. "I ain't gonna do this. It's about me and my kids, not him and his cause!"

It's not hearsay when three guards corroborate their lies...oops, their statements.

this is so ridiculous. I wouldn't care what anyone told me before hand. when they finally strap me down, I'm sure as hell not going to worry about putting on a show for anyone.I think at that moment it really is "all about you"

nekom:Theaetetus:That's what the pro-death penalty people would have us believe, yes. However, we do know this: either it was actual writhing in pain, or the tranquilizer failed such that he could do "intentional theatrics".In other words, on the surface, it looks like this rebuts the people opposed to the death penalty... but in actuality, it only harms the argument that the drugs were effective at sedating him.

I'm anti-death penalty across the board, but let me tell you something: I don't really care if it hurts. 10 minutes or so of pain, yeah whatever, not a huge deal. The waiting, the endless appeals, the dates coming and sometimes going, that's FAR more torturous than a few minutes of discomfort and pain. That and a whole host of other reasons I oppose it. If we MUST have the death penalty, I think it should have an even higher burden of proof, only the clearly guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt should be taken to the gallows and hanged immediately after that guilt is determined.

Yeah, that's reasonable, and we'll let the trial court say whether you're "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" or "guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt." I'm sure though that it really would be a higher burden of proof, even though the former would result in an immediate appeal and possible reversal, and the latter has no appeal and immediate death. Why, probably no more than 99% of defendants would be found "guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt".

I keep asking this and not getting an answer. When you take your pet to the vet it takes about 15 seconds and they die with a smile and don't seem uncomfortable at all. It took this dude 20 minutes+ to suffocate. What are they teaching at vet school that these folks are ignoring?

serpent_sky:dittybopper: Protected by attorney-client privilege, and in any case, "making a show of your death" as a way to protest capital punishment is protected political speech.

It's not if he voluntarily told people. The attorney has to protect the privilege, but the client is under no such orders. Sort of like my therapist/doctors can't go talking about me, but I can repeat the whole session/appointment word for word to my friend if I am so inclined. They have to keep my privacy, but if I make it common knowledge or tell people what happened repeatedly, it changes things a bit.

What really comes into play here, I think, is it's hearsay, since there is no way a dead man can confirm or deny that he actually said it.

Just because it is hearsay doesn't mean you can't use it in court. I can think of multiple ways to get the statements in despite hearsay rules.

Lawyers are the scum of the Earth, so I'll assume it's true because when it comes down to it, the word of any prison guard means more to me than any attorney's, moreover, I'm not taking the word of a condemned man.

He may have been warped enough to go through with it yet still feign distress over the request enhanced by the very real stress of getting killed soon.

We'll never know for sure, unless they put someone else to death and the same "symptoms" manifest.

Again, few lawyers would be above that kind of thing as life and decency are meaningless to them, unless they're attached to a smile and many thousands of dollars.

I find it odd that, where ethical suicide is allowed, they give the patient an overdose of barbiturates and they simply nod off, with their families around them. But, when the same is done to these scumbags, it's inhumane torture. Garbage like this needs to go, I don't care if it's a bullet to the back of the head.

Theaetetus:Sure, but it may be an ethics violation. He wouldn't be subject to criminal prosecution, but dismissal or sanctions? The bar for the Bar is lower.

Hah. Go on, pull the other one.

I actually had a reason to complain about a lawyer I had hired, because of his either indifference or incompetence (the distaffbopper and I were never able to actually figure out which it was). We actually had to fire the lawyer in question and continue the case pro se, otherwise we'd have had to start from Square One, and it was over a very, very minor thing the lawyer needed to perform (produce a document he had).

I looked into filing a complaint with the state bar, and found that the process was stacked against the complainant and for the lawyer. Well, no surprise there: It's an association of lawyers, after all.

The lawyer in question was eventually suspended twice (he's currently under suspension for a year), but it took years and years of multiple complaints, including those involving large sums of money, and he still hasn't been disbarred.

dittybopper:Theaetetus: Sure, but it may be an ethics violation. He wouldn't be subject to criminal prosecution, but dismissal or sanctions? The bar for the Bar is lower.

Hah. Go on, pull the other one.

I actually had a reason to complain about a lawyer I had hired, because of his either indifference or incompetence (the distaffbopper and I were never able to actually figure out which it was). We actually had to fire the lawyer in question and continue the case pro se, otherwise we'd have had to start from Square One, and it was over a very, very minor thing the lawyer needed to perform (produce a document he had).

I looked into filing a complaint with the state bar, and found that the process was stacked against the complainant and for the lawyer. Well, no surprise there: It's an association of lawyers, after all.

The lawyer in question was eventually suspended twice (he's currently under suspension for a year), but it took years and years of multiple complaints, including those involving large sums of money, and he still hasn't been disbarred.

NickelP:I keep asking this and not getting an answer. When you take your pet to the vet it takes about 15 seconds and they die with a smile and don't seem uncomfortable at all. It took this dude 20 minutes+ to suffocate. What are they teaching at vet school that these folks are ignoring?

The use of drugs that the manufacturers refuse to sell to prisons, because they don't want them associated with killing people.

Which is not unreasonable. However, you could also do it with a gas chamber and nitrogen. Dude peacefully goes to sleep, dies without twitching within 5 minutes.

What were the dearly departed's last words? Any smidgen of remorse? Did he acknowledge his victims or did he, like so many before him, partner with no less than Jesus himself in forgiving us all?

Allso, does the prison monitor the inmate's vital stats during the execution? I always see the length of time it took from the start (injection of the drugs) till the inmate dies, and observations of the inmate's movements, but do they also monitor things like heart rate, etc., which might give an indication of whether he was actually physically suffering or if his visible movements were more exaggerated than what their monitoring showed?

bigbobowski:this is so ridiculous. I wouldn't care what anyone told me before hand. when they finally strap me down, I'm sure as hell not going to worry about putting on a show for anyone.I think at that moment it really is "all about you"

when I am literally on my deathbed, the last thing on my mind would be to make my lawyer look good.