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Re: Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

Originally Posted by trfjr

but if you look at the article it is more then just the Asian countries that are kicking our ass Poland is kicking our ass

As I originally wrote, I don't know how accurate these "international" tests are, when it comes to comparisons. Kind of like when the World Health Organization attempted to gather mortality rates for countries from around the world. Turns out the data was so flawed the results were meaningless.

In this "test" case, Shanghai is such an outlier, the auther called their results meaningless.

Of this I am fairly certain, regardless of the country, the problem, and the solution, is found at home.

I looked really quickly but it looks like non-US nations have about half the suicide rate that the USA does... another factor. I had three students commit suicide in four year. Four went to prison for felonies. Two were put into coma's after being beaten at parties. One school I taught at was a war zone. SWAT was there a few times. Drug arrests. Violent gang incidents weekly. How the hell is anybody supposed to learn?

Re: Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

Originally Posted by ocean515

Very accurate assessement.

My son spent a year in South Korea teaching English in a private "after school" academy. The entire focus of the family, and for that matter South Korean society, is on education in preparation for the College entrance exams giving at the end of High School. Kids go to school 6 days a week, and according to my son, they typically attend class from 8am to around 8pm, with breaks for lunch and dinner. This is for kids 8 years old and beyond.

On the down side, these kids have very little imagination, again according to my son. Apparently the focus on precise answers year after year, removes much thought in the abstract.

I can certainly see the harm with the good there. That kills the spirit of education, which is to foster a hunger for discovery and achievement beyond the classroom. Those Korean schools sound too clinical, too procedural.

Then again, they live under the constant threat of North Korea, China, etc., in all arenas. They live a very different reality.

Re: Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

I don't think that there is anything wrong with liberal progressive policies... which ones hurt individuals anyway? But yes, the break up of the traditional family unit has hurt society. The biggest thing to hurt children is discipline. Parents are told not to spank but don't know how to do the time out method properly because it is a skill, not something that you can just do. Gangs. Thugs. Hip hop culture. Kids suing parents. It is just a mess and comparing our education system to others is unfair. Our top kids are still top or more so, on the world stage.

New Zealand has a better ranked system than the USA. Society is pretty even in that most are European descendants. The Maori would be like our Mexicans, except a lot less of them. When Kiwis go to the USA for exchange they realize that they are, in general, behind. When American students go to New Zealand they realize that they are 1-2 years ahead of Kiwis even though the US system is supposedly behind. Why? Because gangs, non-English speakers, etc. are what is ruining the education system in the US... not the teachers. Not the curriculum.

When I taught in California I had two ELL Classes. English Language Learners. Nothing was learned in that class all year. I was teaching how to say door, or teacher. basic words. Students in that class didn't speak English and I spoke limited Spanish but I had an Israeli, a Pakastani (that sure made lessons fun!) a bunch of south of the border kids speaking various dialects of broken Spanish, three Vietnamese and a kid from Poland. They all took the same tests that the rest of the kids took but they all failed miserably and that brings down the over all score for the school, district, state and nation. Multiply this to every school and you see a massive problem. Then throw in gangs, ADD, social media bullying, etc and the political correctness bull **** (that is liberalism) that says all kids can be university students and all the other crap and we have problems that no teacher can ever hope to solve.

You hit on a key point. With a much less diverse population in multiple categories, education becomes much easier to plan and execute for a school system and its faculty.

Multiculturalism is a very hot topic in Europe because the desired effect has not been realized. Quite the opposite, in fact. France is losing its identity entirely, as is England and other places.

My two oldest went through the public system and have done very well. However, my youngest is going the private route because the game is changing too fast.

Re: Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

I looked really quickly but it looks like non-US nations have about half the suicide rate that the USA does... another factor. I had three students commit suicide in four year. Four went to prison for felonies. Two were put into coma's after being beaten at parties. One school I taught at was a war zone. SWAT was there a few times. Drug arrests. Violent gang incidents weekly. How the hell is anybody supposed to learn?

We're at an interesting impasse then...

Your source states (if I read you right) that the US has a higher suicide rate but my source (the OECD) has figures saying the exact opposite. South Korea, Japan, Finland - all nations who have scored most highly in the PISA tests all have horrendous youth suicide rates.
The one that surprises me most if Finland because the Scandinavian approach to school is the exact opposite to all other "sausage factory" approaches and kids have an extended childhood and start education at 8.

Anyhow - are our statistics the same or is this the old adage about "lies, damned lies and statistics?"

Re: Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

Originally Posted by ocean515

My son shares your sentiment. After a year teaching in a private school in Changwon, South Korea, he was ready to get back to Southern California.

Let me see if I can put this in a few words. My son once asked his class to write down what they did with their friends in their free time. After several minutes of explanation, and lots of questions, the response was something like, "what's free time?". It wasn't a complaint, it was complete confusion over the concept of "free time".

I'm not sure what the balance is. I don't think it's the extreme as seen in many parts of industrialized Asia.

And here we are, on the other end of the scale, trying to reduce the dropout rates in our schools! If it wasn't so sad, it would be comical, because our kids sure know what free time is! I doubt the South Koreans give their children the Summer off from school! :.

Re: Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos

We're at an interesting impasse then...

Your source states (if I read you right) that the US has a higher suicide rate but my source (the OECD) has figures saying the exact opposite. South Korea, Japan, Finland - all nations who have scored most highly in the PISA tests all have horrendous youth suicide rates.
The one that surprises me most if Finland because the Scandinavian approach to school is the exact opposite to all other "sausage factory" approaches and kids have an extended childhood and start education at 8.

Anyhow - are our statistics the same or is this the old adage about "lies, damned lies and statistics?"

The teenage suicide rate here is much higher. It's relatively epidemic in America, and it stands to reason when your whole sense of values and discipline comes from social media, Hollywood, and the hip hop world.

Re: Teens in Asia dominate global test; US stagnant

Originally Posted by Erod

The teenage suicide rate here is much higher. It's relatively epidemic in America, and it stands to reason when your whole sense of values and discipline comes from social media, Hollywood, and the hip hop world.

The OECD must be lying then because a second OECD chart (apart from the one in my link) states that the United States teen suicide rate is only just above the OECD average. They even state the the US ten suicide rate is falling.

The OECD themselves take data from the World Health Organisation database which sources data from national governments statistics agencies.

Increasing suicide rates have been noticeable for Chile, Ireland, Japan and Mexico, although Ireland and Mexico have shown more stable rates from 2000 onwards. Except for Mexico, these countries
began the period with rates below the OECD average and ended up with rates above the OECD average in
2008. On the contrary, declining suicide rates have been noticeable for Estonia, Finland and United
States. All these countries began the period with rates much above the OECD average and are much
closer to the OECD average in 2008.