French president threatens to block EU trade negotiations with the US amid bugging scandal

Originally posted by JayinAR
But I am a bit shocked that very few people are even discussing it at all

The chilling effect.

The simple existence of such spying is enough to make people silent, that's why this is so dangerous and almost inevitably leads to complete
totalitarianism, if people do not act against it.

The threat that simply discussing it could put you on a list is enough to silence the general public, so imagine the damage it does to journalism, or
the fear it places on those in positions to actually do something about it.

The very existence of this massive spying system against the public is totalitarian in and of itself, it scares people into silence and makes people
fear for their safety or concerned about harassment.

Forget whether they are actually threatening, harassing or framing people for a minute, and consider the damage that just having that capability does
to people. The simple fact that this all exists is enough to bring about the totalitarian nightmare everyone has been fearing for a few years now.
It's already started.

Any form of spying in "friendly" countries is unacceptable. No matter what side. You should stop trying to justify it by saying, "oh but everyone does
it!!" as that is a tactic used by idiot children.

Like it or not, that's the fact and it happens today and tomorrow. Everyone spies on each other and nothing will ever prevent that. No law, no
citizen, nothing. If it's right or not that's a different question and another one is how detailed and extensive BUT Espionage has been part of a long
tradition of gathering intelligence and some countries took it to extremes like the Stasi or the Nazi SS where nobody was trustworthy.

France, Germany, UK, European Union - all of them have their own networks and nobody can't tell me that they are not doing it - sometimes they even go
farther then the US, e.g. look at Germany and their whole V-man infiltration of right-radical minded groups - turned out that most "leaders" in these
groups where actually spies.

Yeah I call it BS if these countries complaint about us - I would rather ask the question, how much of our equipment and intelligence did they use
against their own people!

You know, I was just thinking about the whole spying on the EU thing and something dawned on me. Spying on the EU itself was unlikely for war reasons
as they are our allies but more likely for economic reasons. What entity has one of the strongest presences in Obama's cabinet and also was
involved in the governmental derivative based scandals that caused some countries to basically financially implode (ie. Greece)? Goldman-Sachs.

There's a mighty chasm that separates 'suspicion' from 'knowledge.' Thanks to the multitudinous revelations imparted to us by NSA whistle-blower
Edward Snowden, serious doubts and uncertainties have been confirmed by many; not just here in the USA, but by a large number of nations throughout
the world who were already suspect about the U.S. governments surreptitious surveillance activities. We now know that we were correct in our
suspicions of sweeping illegitimate activity! Snowden provided proof to what had heretofore been subject to 'plausible deniability' on the part of US
officials - not merely in the intelligence community, but across the board.

This American beast is addicted to information, and like any other addict it just keeps on, voraciously consuming; becoming fattened and corpulent
until it eventually devours itself.

There is a massive difference between spying on military movements by an enemy, and spying on democracies around the world. There is also a big
difference in that the NSA is more powerful than the American government.

i think you like so many others making such a big fuss over this aren't getting it, spying has never been such a straightforward thing as just
watching military movements, it has always been about knowing your enemies or potential enemies, in every way, to plan for every eventuality that
might or might not happen, to be prepared for any ally to turn on you, nations like people can betray a friend or pretend to be a friend for many
reasons. why act in ignorance when dealing with foreign powers? only fools accept agreements with someone they don't know because no matter how
friendly one might appear on the surface, their real intentions could very well be your demise, so you should know your friends and enemies alike, you
never know, your greatest enemy might be your only real friend.

There is much more at play here. I think that is something YOU don't understand.

If this were something as simple as keeping tabs on your potential enemies, everyone involved would simply say, "no biggie. We do it too."

The fact that this is being made into such a big deal should establish that there is more going on.

Again, the amount of data being collected gives the NSA leverage over anyone they decide to use it against. Lawyers, judges, policy makers, etc.

These people know this and this is why they are pissed. It compromises the sovereignty of nations. All nations. All people. The NSA has established
itself as the most powerful organization on the planet through blatantly illegal means.
This isn't something people are going to just dismiss no matter how much you would like them too.

If you didnt know you were being spied on to start with, couldn't the NSA just say they had and actually not? Because thats whats going to
happen.

I bet there even a clause in the "secret" agreements that says if the network of spy information becomes public knowledge, they all say how
outrageous it is and the NSA will cease its spying activity's. While not doing anything at all to stop, but now its in the public domain, the next
time (and there will be a next time) it comes up less people will care.

No, there is absolutely no difference between spying on allies and spying on enemies. If you think there is then perhaps you could explain why?
(without being a hypocrite).

Allow me.

As the song says, It's A Matter Of Trust. The U.S. obviously trusts no one. Not trusting your enemies is understandable, but if you don't trust your
allies, then they're not your allies but, rather, potential enemies. I don't know about you, but I don't treat friends with suspicion to the point
where I''\m going to tap their phones, computer or house. You don't do that to your friends. It's an invasion of privacy and you only invade
someone's privacy when you don't care about them or care about what they think of you.

On the world stage the same principles apply, only on a more business level, and the U.S. and France have been conducting business for a very long
time. Long enough to where there should be a level of mutual trust between the two. I think there has been on France's part, but obviously not the
U.S.

If I've been in the shipping business for 20 years and I've been dealing with a company who receives goods from me for all that time, we're going
to know each other and trust each other because we'd have been through a lot together. The U.S. is acting like the EU has just came on the scene and
still has to prove their trustworthy status to them. If you don't trust someone after 250 years, you never will. And if this administration is going
to come in and act like the last 250 years never happened with one ally, then it's only a matter of time before they don't have any allies at all.

And for all of you saying that every country who has the capability of doing this, actually does it, then stop wondering why Governments around the
world don't get along to where productive things can happen on a global level. You can't move ahead when you're constantly watching your back.

I hope that answers your question Flavian.

And just for the record, for the past 7 years that I've been here I've said some pretty disparaging things about the Government of the country I
live in. The U.S. I don't necessarily enjoy it but, being the person I am, I'm gonna call it as I see it. Show me something positive that the
Government does and I'll be more than happy to point it out. I'd like nothing more than to be proud of the people who represent my country on a
global level, but as it stands, they're buffoons.

I have read every post on this thread, have read other threads regarding the Snowden leaks and US spying but have not posted because my knowledge is
limited and I don't want to sound like I don't know what I am talking about. Conversation may be limited here but I am pretty sure alot of members
have been reading the posts.

What is happening to America scares me. Our superpower status has given our agencies so much power that we have become drunk with it. What is the
fallout on this? What are the other countries going to do with this information? Is France simply chastising us or are they going to do something
about it?

My big question is: Why are we spying more on Germany than any other country?

I am actually finding this whole thing rather funny (the reaction of politicians). They all appear to be acting with complete shock and surprise,
which is rather amusing when you consider they are supposed to understand the world of "real politik".

Why would any politician be surprised that spying goes on at every level and aimed at allies as well as enemies? I honestly believe that those
surprised by this are clearly not fit for office as they simply do not have a clue.

I agree with you here.
Every country in the world does the same thing.
Its really think that this snowden traitor is trying to cause more unrest then there already is.
sneaky rat it is

They aren't really surprised, shocked or outraged. Well outside of the public face of it anyway. Every world power spies, snoops and taps every other
world power ally or not. When one gets caught doing it, the others all have to act shocked and upset by it. That is part of their job to keep the
public happy. The one certainty you can count on, is we are not a united world your friends today can be your enemy tomorrow you had best always be
looking for the knife behind you in the night.

And for those that want to sanction us, please pretty please do put up embargoes on every port and refuse to trade with us on every level. What you do
not realize is that you need us more than we will or ever have needed you. We have a resource rich country with the most industrious minds and
necessity is mother of invention do the math.

No, there is absolutely no difference between spying on allies and spying on enemies. If you think there is then perhaps you could explain
why?

1. America is not in a state of war.
2. Europe is not considered an enemy of America, they are supposed to be allies.
3. The economic nature of this espionage directly threatens billions of people across the continent.

Spying on an foreign power (such as China or Russia) is valid when it comes to military dominance, and economic impact when at war. People expect
their security services to be carrying out this work.

Using such tactics against allies, for economic dominance in peacetime, is an act of aggression.

I don't know what you're talking about...America has been in state of war for decades, what history are YOU referring to?

In other news, it looks like our government has utterly irked South America:
www.cnn.com...

Bolivian Vice President Alvaro Garcia Linera described Morales as a "hostage of imperialism." "The president has been kidnapped by imperialism,
and he is being held in Europe," he said in a televised address late Tuesday night. The vice president called for workers worldwide to protest "this
act of imperial arrogance." The situation drew a swift rebuke from Ecuador's foreign minister, who told reporters he planned to call a regional
meeting of the Union of South American Nations, known as UNASUR, to discuss it. "We consider this a huge offense, and I will call for a UNASUR
special summit with foreign secretaries to discuss this issue," Ecuadorian Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino said. Cuba's Foreign Ministry also
condemned the incident. "This constitutes an unacceptable, unfounded and arbitrary act which offends all of Latin America and the Caribbean," the
ministry said in a statement.

So EU-US trade agreements may be stymied and now UNASUR is going to gather. Really not good considering how much of what we eat and wear come from
outside of the US.

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