I despise "Christian" missionaries....who travel to lands that are already Christian (namely Orthodox) to bring the Good News to them.

If you truly wish to be a missionary and to save lost souls, to bring them the Good News, to educate them about Christ, then go to the lands that are NOT Christian.

I know MANY Lutheran churches, Mormons, etc. first hand, that travel to Russia and Ukraine to save their lost souls. Their souls are not lost.

Go and save the souls of the Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. They truly do need to hear the Good News.

Peter J., there's a huge difference here.

I recently attended a conference on Orthodox missions and evangelism, and an Anglican attendee asked a similar question to one of the presenting priests. He asked, why do so many Orthodox converts in the United States seem to have previously been active members of other denominations? Why aren't the Orthodox doing more to reach out to the unchurched?

The priest responded that just like in New Testament times, when it was easiest to reach out to Jews who were expecting a Messiah, people with Christian backgrounds are more receptive to the message of the ancient Church. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be reaching out to everyone, but most converts will naturally come from Christian backgrounds.

I don't think Protestant missionaries are neglecting non-Christian countries, but maybe it's more difficult to show because these countries are less receptive to the Christian message. Also, if a Baptist really thought the Orthodox had it right, wouldn't he be Orthodox and not Baptist? I don't know why it would be wrong for missionaries to share with others what they consider to be a purer, more correct form of Christianity, even if the nation is already Christianized... Whether they're wrong or not, how can their sincerity be condemned?

I think you'll find that Orthodox in Protestant countries for the most part do very little active proselytizing. 8/10s of the time a Protestant convert sought out the Orthodox Church due to research into history, the Church Fathers, etc. The other 2/10s of the time the Protestant convert knows an Orthodox who used to be Protestant who encourages him to come (there are also a perhaps 1% who were unchurched Protestants who happened to meet an Orthodox Christian who invited them to attend or wandered into an Orthodox Church and got hooked). The Orthodox in our countries usually came as a result of the problems in Orthodox countries, fleeing persecution or war (save some in America who got here quite honorably by evangelizing the native Americans).

Some Protestant missionaries (S. Baptists, Pentecostals, etc), on the other hand, will specifically target Orthodox and Roman Catholic countries specifically to convert Orthodox and Roman Catholics. That is why there is sometimes animosity expressed here toward Protestants (keeping in mind, for Peter J, another thread where I explained that due to sheer numbers of Evangelicals they are sometimes seen as representing the whole of Protestantism).

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Peter, I understand that you feel hurt by this, but I think that one needs to be practical in thinking about this.

I've seen the damage American Evangelicals have done within my own family (in New Zealand and I have heard complaints of the same happening in Australia) and I can understand why an Orthodox believer wouldn't want them in an Orthodox country; the blind leading the blind into the individualism of some nebulous "invisible church" instead of sound Christian dogma; making issues where there are none. (Not that you don't find some Orthodox doing that, but at least we are glued together by dogma on who Christ is.)

My own nephew had been freewheeling with American Evangelicals for so long that he recently passed from this life rejecting the Trinity, rejecting that Christ is God. As long as he held onto his one heretical doctrine that set the small group (cult) he belonged to apart from other Christians; as long as he preached that and convinced each new convert that the historic Church was wrong, he would be open to anything that came out of an American publishing house. Anything that wasn't what ancient Christians believed.

I think you make some good points, Riddikulus, about the practical side of things; however, there's another practical consideration that you don't mention: How does We should pray for Protestants to be kept away sound to Protestants?

I don't mean just "Does it hurt their feelings?" but what message might they take out of it? I would say it lends itself to the misconceptions- that Orthodox and Catholics are much closer than they really are. - that Orthodox and Catholics are "conspiring to oppress Protestants by keeping them out of as many countries as possible" (or some wording of that sort -- I've never been Protestant). - that Orthodox and Catholics aren't Christians but some man-made religion.

I'm not saying, by any means, that We should pray for Protestants to be kept away would, all by itself, cause those misconceptions. But I think it would contribute, for Protestants already prone to think that way.

And no, there's no hypocrisy there when you apply it to America- we wanted separation of Church and State, we have it. Secular nation= not a Protestant land.

This may not go over too well on an Orthodox forum, but I'll say it anyhow ...

I honestly don't think that's any reason for Protestants not to pray for Orthodox/Catholics to be kept away. Indeed, I'm sure many of them would say "We need to pray for it all the harder, since we get no help from the government!"

Some Protestant missionaries (S. Baptists, Pentecostals, etc), on the other hand, will specifically target Orthodox and Roman Catholic countries specifically to convert Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

I have two friends who are doing this; they think it's their duty to Christ to witness to the poor, stupid Colombians who don't know anything about Jesus because they are forced to worship Mary (of course I don't think people in Colombia are stupid, but that is pretty much how they look at it; oh, "once they become Baptist, they will get it lalalalalala")

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My anime double posts here.

^^^ It's been so long since I've been here I literally have no idea what that is even referring to o_O

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

So, do they think the Orthodox souls are MORE lost and in need of salvation than the Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims?

No. It's just safer in already Christian lands.

It's easier to "convert" someone who already believes in Christ and to pitch to them an "easier" version of Christianity that doesn't make you fast, or attend Liturgy, and....oh yes....the Sacraments, well....they aren't really necessary....and when they go to church they can sing and clap or sit and talk, attend great Christian concerts, etc.

When they give them free food when the person is starving....it's easy to convert them.

Bunch of hooey!

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

So, do they think the Orthodox souls are MORE lost and in need of salvation than the Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims?

No. It's just safer in already Christian lands.

It's easier to "convert" someone who already believes in Christ and to pitch to them an "easier" version of Christianity

I've had this discussion with quite a few non-denom and Baptigelical friends of mine who go on mission trips to Romania, Russia, Albania etc. I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's safer and easier to go to already Christian countries so that you can feel good about yourself and how many souls you have won for Christ, rather than concentrating all their considerable time, energy and resources on non-Christians.

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

So, do they think the Orthodox souls are MORE lost and in need of salvation than the Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims?

No. It's just safer in already Christian lands.

It's easier to "convert" someone who already believes in Christ and to pitch to them an "easier" version of Christianity

I've had this discussion with quite a few non-denom and Baptigelical friends of mine who go on mission trips to Romania, Russia, Albania etc. I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's safer and easier to go to already Christian countries so that you can feel good about yourself and how many souls you have won for Christ, rather than concentrating all their considerable time, energy and resources on non-Christians.

The group I was associated with saw Catholics the same as Hindus. All lost, all the same.

PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

For the record, my roots are NOT from an Orthodox country, but rather a multi-cultural one where Orthodox are as minuscule a minority as they are here in the USA and with the Greek Catholics not far behind them demographically - the Republic of Slovakia. Modern day south east Poland and western Ukraine are also historically multi-cultural and similar in many ways.

So, for the benefit of those of you who seem upset because I didn't include Catholics - yes, I plead guilty, I didn't include them because the regions to which I was emotionally involved are largely Catholic. Duh. I also explained that historically these areas had many Lutherans and some Hussite Presbyterians.

I pray, and will continue to pray, that the ministrations of these American evangelicals fall upon deaf ears in these lands, that the faithful who live there will not succumb to the siren songs of these false teachers and that the faithful work hard within their own lands to bring back to the bosom of the Church those who have fallen away in the modern era. For that prayer no apology is needed and none is offered.

I have Protestant relatives as well and our family has never harbored any ill will towards them. Over the years we have prayed with them, attended their weddings, funerals and celebrations and they have done the same with us. Have we wished and prayed that my uncle and his family would return to the faith of his fathers? Of course,hence I fail to see the difference with what I said in the first instance.

being protestant my whole life, ive never heard anyone pray that. but maybe some do pray for Catholics (by that they mean Roman Catholics) because they dont think they are real Christians. most protestants i know dont even know what Orthodoxy is, so i doubt they would feel the need to pray for them.

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

And no, there's no hypocrisy there when you apply it to America- we wanted separation of Church and State, we have it. Secular nation= not a Protestant land.

This may not go over too well on an Orthodox forum, but I'll say it anyhow ...

I honestly don't think that's any reason for Protestants not to pray for Orthodox/Catholics to be kept away. Indeed, I'm sure many of them would say "We need to pray for it all the harder, since we get no help from the government!"

Given the rate of Orthodox and Catholic expansion here in America, they aren't getting any help from prayer, either. Like I said, Hyper-evangelicals can believe what they want about us and pray for whatever they think is right, it's no skin off my nose.

And think about this, for a second- many Orthodox Christians pray daily for the eradication of all other sects (the sects themselves, not the people in the sects)- from the prayers of the Church from Jordanville and St Tikhon's prayer books and the OSB (with commentary in parenthesis): "Heal the schisms of the churches (there go the RCs and the higher church Protestants)... speedily undo and root out the growth of heresies (that takes care of Calvinists, Oneness Pentecostals, iconoclasts, Mormons, and JWs), and bring them to naught by the power of Your Holy Spirit." Even by doing something so innocuous as praying for the "Unity of all churches" as Orthodox Christians we can only be praying for the absorption of all other sects into the Orthodox Church (not to say that they cannot keep certain expressions, in so far as those expressions are true). I don't think that this should be offensive to anyone, though I know that in this age of relativity and supposed ecumenism this is considered highly offensive- how dare anyone think they have a monopoly on the Truth!

But, if the truth claims of the Orthodox Church are an actual fact, we can do no less than pray that the Orthodox lands stay safe from incursion of a lesser truth, the same way we pray for good weather and protection from famine.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Peter, I understand that you feel hurt by this, but I think that one needs to be practical in thinking about this.

I've seen the damage American Evangelicals have done within my own family (in New Zealand and I have heard complaints of the same happening in Australia) and I can understand why an Orthodox believer wouldn't want them in an Orthodox country; the blind leading the blind into the individualism of some nebulous "invisible church" instead of sound Christian dogma; making issues where there are none. (Not that you don't find some Orthodox doing that, but at least we are glued together by dogma on who Christ is.)

My own nephew had been freewheeling with American Evangelicals for so long that he recently passed from this life rejecting the Trinity, rejecting that Christ is God. As long as he held onto his one heretical doctrine that set the small group (cult) he belonged to apart from other Christians; as long as he preached that and convinced each new convert that the historic Church was wrong, he would be open to anything that came out of an American publishing house. Anything that wasn't what ancient Christians believed.

I think you make some good points, Riddikulus, about the practical side of things; however, there's another practical consideration that you don't mention: How does We should pray for Protestants to be kept away sound to Protestants?

As podkarpatska has already said, the Protestants he is referring to are the same as most of us abhor; not as people, but for the false doctrines they spread. Mainstream Protestants complain about American Evangelicals every bit as bitterly as I do. The spectrum is broad, I know. From outright dangerous cultic groups like the Mormons and JWs, SDAs and various Baptists, Messianics and other fundamentalists from groups too numerous to recount.

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I don't mean just "Does it hurt their feelings?" but what message might they take out of it? I would say it lends itself to the misconceptions- that Orthodox and Catholics are much closer than they really are. - that Orthodox and Catholics are "conspiring to oppress Protestants by keeping them out of as many countries as possible" (or some wording of that sort -- I've never been Protestant). - that Orthodox and Catholics aren't Christians but some man-made religion.

point 1: I'm not sure that really matters. Any interested Protestant is going to find out the difference. Otherwise, people live with misconceptions that we can do nothing about. Being concerned for the faithful who might come into contact with these evangelicals transcends the concern that Protestants might confuse us with Catholics.

point 2: After seeing the damage they do, how they rip families apart, deny the doctrine of salvation to anyone they befuddle with their smoke and mirrors tactics, a conspiracy to keep American Evangelicals at home would be a fine thing as far as I'm concerned.

point 3: Sorry, I don't see the correlation.

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I'm not saying, by any means, that We should pray for Protestants to be kept away would, all by itself, cause those misconceptions. But I think it would contribute, for Protestants already prone to think that way.

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Given the rate of Orthodox and Catholic expansion here in America, they aren't getting any help from prayer, either. Like I said, Hyper-evangelicals can believe what they want about us and pray for whatever they think is right, it's no skin off my nose.

And think about this, for a second- many Orthodox Christians pray daily for the eradication of all other sects (the sects themselves, not the people in the sects)- from the prayers of the Church from Jordanville and St Tikhon's prayer books and the OSB (with commentary in parenthesis): "Heal the schisms of the churches (there go the RCs and the higher church Protestants)... speedily undo and root out the growth of heresies (that takes care of Calvinists, Oneness Pentecostals, iconoclasts, Mormons, and JWs), and bring them to naught by the power of Your Holy Spirit." Even by doing something so innocuous as praying for the "Unity of all churches" as Orthodox Christians we can only be praying for the absorption of all other sects into the Orthodox Church (not to say that they cannot keep certain expressions, in so far as those expressions are true). I don't think that this should be offensive to anyone, though I know that in this age of relativity and supposed ecumenism this is considered highly offensive- how dare anyone think they have a monopoly on the Truth!

But, if the truth claims of the Orthodox Church are an actual fact, we can do no less than pray that the Orthodox lands stay safe from incursion of a lesser truth, the same way we pray for good weather and protection from famine.

Yes, I believe I have heard that prayer before.

I have a question for you in return: Can you think of a prayer book that says "Let us pray for Protestants to be kept at a distance" (with the understanding of course that this isn't to be taken literally)? That's the prayer book I would like to see.

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this, your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

Since challenging podkarpatska's prayer request a couple days ago, I've received quite a few posts in reply. Some of them defended the prayer request, others described what's wrong with some or all Protestants (which I don't disagree with by the way), still others said that I was being provocative or picking a fight by challenging podkarpatska's request, or “too bad if the truth hurts”, among other thing (cf. my previous post to Schultz).

After many such posts, I was informed that when Orthodox pray for Protestants to be "kept at a distance" it doesn't refer to physical distance, and it was further hinted (I believe) that it is in fact equivalent to praying that the ministrations of American evangelicals fall upon deaf ears in those lands.

This has me at a great disadvantage, not only because I just recently learned something that most/all of you Orthodox posters knew from the start, but also because I really don't know whether Protestants who pray “for Orthodox to be kept at a distance from the US” are actually praying for the ministrations of Orthodox in the US to fall upon deaf ears, so I'm going to have to disqualify myself from that corner of the discussion.

But leaving that aside, I want to thank everyone who has posted on this thread, and also others like Fr. Ambrose and Wyatt, with whom I have conversed in the last month or so (which has been great by the way). Don't forget about me, I'll be back again before you know it.

I honestly have never heard any Orthodox pray that Protestants be kept at a distance.

We do pray for the unity of the Church, for the safety and salvation of her people, etc. Perhaps in those prayers the result is in keeping other "forces" at bay....but, I've never heard anyone specifically pray the above line.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I have a question for you in return: Can you think of a prayer book that says "Let us pray for Protestants to be kept at a distance" (with the understanding of course that this isn't to be taken literally)? That's the prayer book I would like to see.

That all depends- I don't know podkarpatska in real life, so I don't know the odds of him developing a cult of veneration after his death and being proclaimed a saint. In the event that were to happen, there's a good chance that the above prayer would be included in the Jordanville Prayer Book edition of 2449

I'm sorry if I don't seem to take this conversation entirely seriously- but I don't. By all means, quite literally, let us pray that Protestants be kept at a distance from Orthodox lands. There is no spiritual good a Baptist (and yes, a Lutheran or Anglican, no matter how high church) can do by attempting to convert an Orthodox Christian away from the faith, only a woeful amount of spiritual harm. They might have good intentions, but we all know which high-way is paved with those.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

By all means, quite literally, let us pray that Protestants be kept at a distance from Orthodox lands.

Two things interesting about this. This thread has made it clear that it isn't alright for me to take that literally, yet it seems to be alright for you to take it literally. :scratch chin:

Well, it could be that I'm taking liberties not intended by the original author of this prayer. I don't know if the original author would say that is "alright", as I didn't ask.

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Also interesting that, despite the obvious different regarding literalness, you and podkarpatska both have it as "Protestants" not "Protestants and Catholics".

Again, I can't speak for podkarpatska- but for my part, as a former Protestant who managed to cover every base of Protestant expression (save modalist and Calvinist) before his conversion, if I overlook Catholics (in the sense I believe you intend it) it is because (a) I would at least qualify it as "Roman Catholic" as I believe in the Catholic Church and that Orthodoxy is the Catholic Church; and (b) I tend to overlook RCs in these discussions anyway as I have never been RC and see no reason to go picking a fight- I can speak on the errors of Protestantism because I know them intimately, Roman Catholicism is something I have an academic knowledge of (and am often told a quite mistaken knowledge, as well, though on what points depends on with which Roman Catholic I am conversing). And, as podkarpatska pointed out, Roman (and Eastern, where "Eastern" means a word we can't say here) Catholicism has long been a part of the tradition in many Eastern European lands (which the original context of the prayer refers to) so praying that Roman Catholics be kept far away is like praying for the rain to fall upward- perhaps not impossible from an Almighty viewpoint, but not something that naturally occurs to our finite minds. Finally, the main scope of the conversation even from your end has centered on Protestants, questions about how we feel about the hyper-Evangelical "all Maryology and iconography is a product of the Roman apostasy which you Orthodox have yet to flee from!" perspective and such, thus naturally keeping Protestants at the forefront of the thoughts of everyone conversing here.

If it makes you feel better, in the interests of anti-ecumenism, I am more than willing to add Roman Catholic to the prayer- but then I'm also the type to pray for rain to fall upward.

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(If you're wondering if this is what I meant by "I'll be back again before you know it", it isn't. It's more like going out the door and then realizing you forgot your hat.)

Ah- does this mean you're leaving for an extended period again (In which case- aww, you just got back!), or that you are done for the night (or week)? Either way, have a good night.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

I think praying for anyone to be kept away sets the wrong heart attitude. I am in no position to say "You should do x, y, or z" but if I were praying for such things, I'd feel convicted to pray that they would see the light of the true Church, not stay away.

Hey, I went to proseletyze Orthodox in Orthodox lands, and now I'll be one soon. It can happen

PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

I think praying for anyone to be kept away sets the wrong heart attitude. I am in no position to say "You should do x, y, or z" but if I were praying for such things, I'd feel convicted to pray that they would see the light of the true Church, not stay away.

Hey, I went to proseletyze Orthodox in Orthodox lands, and now I'll be one soon. It can happen

PP

I doubt very much that anyone actually prays such a pray, but I know that I wish that American Evangelicals had kept their airy-fairy, warped beliefs on their home turf. When I was Anglican, many moons ago, it seemed like no one had heard of the nonsense that has come out of the US. Other family members were more fundamentalist. Unfortunately they soon drank the koolaid and in the process began to convince others.

While it's possible that the occasional Evangelical might be converted to Orthodoxy or something more historic, it is unfortunate that most of the time the converts seem go the other way. Nominal Orthodox, Catholics or mainstream Protestants convinced by the aggressive marketing strategies of the Evangelicals.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 06:36:24 PM by Riddikulus »

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

I think praying for anyone to be kept away sets the wrong heart attitude. I am in no position to say "You should do x, y, or z" but if I were praying for such things, I'd feel convicted to pray that they would see the light of the true Church, not stay away.

Hey, I went to proseletyze Orthodox in Orthodox lands, and now I'll be one soon. It can happen

PP

I doubt very much that anyone actually prays such a pray, but I know that I wish that American Evangelicals had kept their airy-fairy, warped beliefs on their home turf. When I was Anglican, many moons ago, it seemed like no one had heard of the nonsense that has come out of the US. Other family members were more fundamentalist. Unfortunately they soon drank the koolaid and in the process began to convince others.

While it's possible that the occasional Evangelical might be converted to Orthodoxy or something more historic, it is unfortunate that most of the time the converts seem go the other way. Nominal Orthodox, Catholics or mainstream Protestants convinced by the aggressive marketing strategies of the Evangelicals.

Its easy to be a protestant. Just pray the magic prayer then believe! You dont have to fast, confess, pray, or do anything to help other people. Just be comfortable and come to the free rock concert every Sunday!

Why would you not want to convert to that???

« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 11:03:47 AM by Timon »

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

I think praying for anyone to be kept away sets the wrong heart attitude. I am in no position to say "You should do x, y, or z" but if I were praying for such things, I'd feel convicted to pray that they would see the light of the true Church, not stay away.

Hey, I went to proseletyze Orthodox in Orthodox lands, and now I'll be one soon. It can happen

PP

I doubt very much that anyone actually prays such a pray, but I know that I wish that American Evangelicals had kept their airy-fairy, warped beliefs on their home turf. When I was Anglican, many moons ago, it seemed like no one had heard of the nonsense that has come out of the US. Other family members were more fundamentalist. Unfortunately they soon drank the koolaid and in the process began to convince others.

While it's possible that the occasional Evangelical might be converted to Orthodoxy or something more historic, it is unfortunate that most of the time the converts seem go the other way. Nominal Orthodox, Catholics or mainstream Protestants convinced by the aggressive marketing strategies of the Evangelicals.

Its easy to be a protestant. Just pray the magic prayer then believe! You dont have to fast, confess, pray, or do anything to help other people. Just be comfortable and come to the free rock concert every Sunday!

Why would you not want to convert to that???

Unfotunately, I actually heard a minister say something very similar to that.

PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

I think praying for anyone to be kept away sets the wrong heart attitude. I am in no position to say "You should do x, y, or z" but if I were praying for such things, I'd feel convicted to pray that they would see the light of the true Church, not stay away.

Hey, I went to proseletyze Orthodox in Orthodox lands, and now I'll be one soon. It can happen

PP

I doubt very much that anyone actually prays such a pray, but I know that I wish that American Evangelicals had kept their airy-fairy, warped beliefs on their home turf. When I was Anglican, many moons ago, it seemed like no one had heard of the nonsense that has come out of the US. Other family members were more fundamentalist. Unfortunately they soon drank the koolaid and in the process began to convince others.

While it's possible that the occasional Evangelical might be converted to Orthodoxy or something more historic, it is unfortunate that most of the time the converts seem go the other way. Nominal Orthodox, Catholics or mainstream Protestants convinced by the aggressive marketing strategies of the Evangelicals.

Its easy to be a protestant. Just pray the magic prayer then believe! You dont have to fast, confess, pray, or do anything to help other people. Just be comfortable and come to the free rock concert every Sunday!

Why would you not want to convert to that???

Unfotunately, I actually heard a minister say something very similar to that.

PP

I hear some variation of that several times a week. It may be a little bit harsh of me, but im certainly one jaded SOB when it comes to that stuff. Lord have mercy.

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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

Its easy to be a protestant. Just pray the magic prayer then believe! You dont have to fast, confess, pray, or do anything to help other people. Just be comfortable and come to the free rock concert every Sunday!

Why would you not want to convert to that???

Exactly. It's all about ME.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 11:46:37 AM by Eastern Mind »

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My anime double posts here.

^^^ It's been so long since I've been here I literally have no idea what that is even referring to o_O

Its easy to be a protestant. Just pray the magic prayer then believe! You dont have to fast, confess, pray, or do anything to help other people. Just be comfortable and come to the free rock concert every Sunday!

Why would you not want to convert to that???

Exactly. It's all about ME.

I think this is too harsh. Many Protestants simply don't know there is an alternative and many others are in historic churches that have liturgical form and prayer. Heck, the Protestants I know pray much more than I do. My own family members have devotional rules and prayer time with their kids that make me feel like a slacker. And to even hint that Protestants don't help people, is plain wrong.

Sure, I still don't want them influencing Orthodox countries with their incorrect doctrines, but let's not fail to recognise their committment.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 04:30:51 PM by Riddikulus »

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this, your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

Its easy to be a protestant. Just pray the magic prayer then believe! You dont have to fast, confess, pray, or do anything to help other people. Just be comfortable and come to the free rock concert every Sunday!

Why would you not want to convert to that???

Exactly. It's all about ME.

I think this is too harsh. Many Protestants simply don't know there is an alternative and many others are in historic churches that have liturgical form and prayer. Heck, the Protestants I know pray much more than I do. My own family members have devotional rules and prayer time with their kids that make me feel like a slacker. And to even hint that Protestants don't help people, is plain wrong.

Sure, I still don't want them influencing Orthodox countries with their incorrect doctrines, but let's not fail to recognise their committment.

Yes let us also not forget the commitment of the Bolsheviks, the French Jacobites, and Muslims. No they arent quite as bad as those as it comes to murderous, tyrannical regimes, but they are still selling a perverted, banal, heretical, version of "Christianity". A crime unto its own...

As we know protestants are living by Bible and faith and totally reject holy traditions and customs.I think that in some cases they have a right opinion. It is not right to lay on traditions and customs only or put it to high goals. But also Protestants have their own traditions and live by it.True Christian must be Orthodox undoubtedly, true Christian must have an Orthodox faith, customs and tradition and life by it, but not like heathen.Christian must learn persistence in spiritual life, must be simple like doves and wise like snakes.

Maybe the arrival of these Protestant missionaries in Orthodox countries is not so bad because it will separate the faithful from the weak. Those who are weak will be moved and go along with the Protestants while those who are faithful will remain strong and strengthened in their faith. It is like natural selection but for religion. I also think that it is fair to mention how there is also a really large growing number of Orthodox Christians in North America; in a sense, Orthodoxy has become the new hipster Christian religion.

Logged

Until I see the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, I will not believe.

Mainstream Protestants complain about American Evangelicals every bit as bitterly as I do.

Is there really a difference? Mainstream American Protestants are Evangelicals for the most part; it has become the new movement within all of the American Protestant Churches. The only mainstream American Protestant Church I would exclude from this would be the Lutherans, but even they are not considered mainstream and Evangelicals have problems with them.

Logged

Until I see the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, I will not believe.

Mainstream Protestants complain about American Evangelicals every bit as bitterly as I do.

Is there really a difference? Mainstream American Protestants are Evangelicals for the most part; it has become the new movement within all of the American Protestant Churches. The only mainstream American Protestant Church I would exclude from this would be the Lutherans, but even they are not considered mainstream and Evangelicals have problems with them.

Granted I've never been Protestant, but I believe that the terms Mainline Protestant and Evangelical Protestant are generally understood as being mutually exclusive.

Mainstream Protestants complain about American Evangelicals every bit as bitterly as I do.

Is there really a difference?

Significantly different!

There is a difference, because "mainstream protestants" are now outnumbered. The American Evangelical is really a juggernaut in many ways in the US.

PP

You know PP I never really considered that but true in so many areas. Perhaps in other cases it might be more of a squeakiest wheal gets the most grease type scenario? Which does bring about a side note of the thread; Evangelicals hardly restrict themselves to proselytizing Orthodox and Catholics. What good Bible belt town or City here in the U.S. does some Protestants not attempt to proselytize other Protestants?

The significant difference to which I was referring between some ‘mainstream’ Protestants (whatever that means anymore) and Evangelicals is of course theological.

Logged

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

You know PP I never really considered that but true in so many areas. Perhaps in other cases it might be more of a squeakiest wheal gets the most grease type scenario?

Very possible, yeah

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Which does bring about a side note of the thread; Evangelicals hardly restrict themselves to proselytizing Orthodox and Catholics

Since many Evangelicals say Orthodox and RC's are not Christians, they dont think of it as proseletyzing.

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What good Bible belt town or City here in the U.S. does some Protestants not attempt to proselytize other Protestants?

Heh, aint that the truth. Basically, the way I was brought up, and forgive my succint explanation, "No sinner's prayer, no Christian". basically, if the magic prayer is not salvation, and its a one shot, fire and forget deal, you're not Christian.

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The significant difference to which I was referring between some ‘mainstream’ Protestants (whatever that means anymore) and Evangelicals is of course theological

Very significant.

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Let us take comfort then, at least, that at some point we will be defined by perfection rather than each other. As for myself, when that day comes regardless of the outcome, I will at least be in God’s hands of judgment and I can’t imagine wanting anything else. Lord have mercy on my sinful heart.

I have read several posts and replies from you two over the short time I have been on here. Regardless of any differences we have I see the compassion and Love of mankind in both you. Glory be to God!

Logged

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

Mainstream Protestants complain about American Evangelicals every bit as bitterly as I do.

Is there really a difference? Mainstream American Protestants are Evangelicals for the most part; it has become the new movement within all of the American Protestant Churches. The only mainstream American Protestant Church I would exclude from this would be the Lutherans, but even they are not considered mainstream and Evangelicals have problems with them.