I was just reading viewtopic.php?f=10&t=40463 and it looks like Mr Benn (?) is the one who can give this map the Draft Stamp to move on to the main foundry.

To spell out the initalizations:OMSI - Oregon Museum of Science and IndustryUofP - University of PortlandPCC - Portland Community CollegeOHSU - Oregon Health Sciences UniversityPSU - Portland State University

Re: Forest ParkThematically, it is very appropriate to have a bike in Forest Park, as mountain biking is a very popular activity in that park. Perhaps making Forest Park the equivalent of 2 regular park territories (and removing the requirement of holding it to obtain a bonus) would lessen the importance of that one territory?

Re: the MAX lineWhat if the stops were made to look like rain shelters? However, currently the triangular spikes coming from each stop indicate which territories they attack. There is a simplicity of functionality to that design.

Thanks. (I guess). I was kind of going for a "tourism brochure" look - one of those fold-out maps that both simplifies and extols the many virtues of the city you are meant to visit.

MrBenn wrote:1. It took me while to figure out that they must be territories on the MAX lines? That really isn't too obvious - especially as none of them are named!

I actually modeled the MAX lines similar to how they were done on the NYC map. The primary difference being that each of those stops is contained within a single territory, whereas mine straddle two or more. I think my only other option is to give them each a number?

MrBenn wrote:2. There are a lot of 'busy' looking maps in the works right now, and this is one of them. The green park symbols vary in shape and size, and I'm not sure whether that is supposed to be a park in Old Town? It took me a long time to find Forest Park as it doesn;t have one of the green squares on it

Yes - that is a park in Old Town. I was hoping the coloration would tie it in with the other parks. Re: Forest Park - The previous version of the map did have a green square in it, but another poster said that it was more confusing that way. The idea is that the territory of Forest Park is a park (it actually takes up that much space on a real map too!). I'll keep brainstorming this one until I find a happy medium.

MrBenn wrote:3. Once I found it, I realised that Forest Park is essential for any of the park bonuses, which makes that terirtory more valuable than anywhere else - particularly as it also has a bicycle on it.... I'd be inclined to move some of the symbols around so that each square has only one symbol...

There are a few other maps that have similar gameplay (where one territory makes several others valuable) - for example the "Warden" in Prison Riot or the "Throne" in Siege, the "Leader" in Drug War. However - I am not opposed to changing this. I'll give it some more thought.

MrBenn wrote:5. What does OMSI stand for? What are the different Universities?

OMSI = Oregon Museum of Science & Industry. Early on, I had several Portlanders tell me it was sacrilegious to not include it on the map, but I'm not particularly attached to it being a bonus. I may end up just sticking it in the water and removing it from the bonuses.

Fifth Draft update: Forest Park is no longer required for a park bonus - now all parks are equal. Moved some bonuses around for a more even spread. Added #s to all MAX stops (except Transit Center). Altered some bonus amounts for consistency. Also added some texture to Forest Park and a map header and toned down Downtown's road grid for look and style improvement.

I actually modeled the MAX lines similar to how they were done on the NYC map. The primary difference being that each of those stops is contained within a single territory, whereas mine straddle two or more. I think my only other option is to give them each a number?

having the lines attached to two territories will make naming them harder - the way that NYC clarifies them is by using the 'Station' prefix in the XML, something that is harder to achieve here

MrBenn wrote:2. There are a lot of 'busy' looking maps in the works right now, and this is one of them. The green park symbols vary in shape and size, and I'm not sure whether that is supposed to be a park in Old Town? It took me a long time to find Forest Park as it doesn;t have one of the green squares on it

Yes - that is a park in Old Town. I was hoping the coloration would tie it in with the other parks. Re: Forest Park - The previous version of the map did have a green square in it, but another poster said that it was more confusing that way. The idea is that the territory of Forest Park is a park (it actually takes up that much space on a real map too!). I'll keep brainstorming this one until I find a happy medium.

The square around the Forwest Park name helps, as does making the Old Town park more boxy.

MrBenn wrote:3. Once I found it, I realised that Forest Park is essential for any of the park bonuses, which makes that terirtory more valuable than anywhere else - particularly as it also has a bicycle on it.... I'd be inclined to move some of the symbols around so that each square has only one symbol...

There are a few other maps that have similar gameplay (where one territory makes several others valuable) - for example the "Warden" in Prison Riot or the "Throne" in Siege, the "Leader" in Drug War. However - I am not opposed to changing this. I'll give it some more thought.

How many territories are there here? [goes to look]... 42... so it's in the mid-range sized maps... the examples you gave make much better strategic use of the 'special' territory in terms of placement and/or accessibility... I'm still uncertain here

Anyway, you're heading in the right direction - before things move up a gear, it would be nice to see wider support for this from the community at large

[Advanced Draft]

PB: 2661 | He's blue...If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that

MrBenn wrote:Anyway, you're heading in the right direction - before things move up a gear, it would be nice to see wider support for this from the community at large [Advanced Draft]

Yay! I guess that means I need to start promoting it?

MrBenn wrote:having the lines attached to two territories will make naming them harder - the way that NYC clarifies them is by using the 'Station' prefix in the XML, something that is harder to achieve here

I agree. I think the simple numbering system works. Maybe I should make those larger?

MrBenn wrote:the examples you gave make much better strategic use of the 'special' territory in terms of placement and/or accessibility... I'm still uncertain here

Now that I am treating Forest Park like all other parks is this still an issue? It is a much less important space now.

I like this a lot...very nice lost...can't wait to have a PDX map to choose...perhaps a new favorite for tourneys and such. Plus, we need some more West Coast representation on here. Nice job...I wouldn't change anything.

Hello, All and, especially, Oregonians! (nice to realize there are more of you in CC than i thought)

Very Very Nice Job, Lostatlimbo! It is Great to see how far you went with PDX map. I like a lot what you chose to be symbols of the City on the map. Zoo, Parks, Garden, Universities and Biking Areas are definitely very important and significant parts of the City. OMSI is also definitely great place to go once you are in the City(as traveler).

I really like how the map is. But there are few points i would like share:1. Arenas. Lostatlimbo, you mentioned earlier that you had been thinking whether to include TrailBlazers arena or not. So here is what i think, -when speaking of PDX, we just cant miss Rose Garden and PGE Park. I mean, you can see Rose Garden(RG) almost from the every part of the Downtown(unless there is a Skyscraper on your way;)) and it is always so great to look at it. Yeah, perhaps for someone(older generations) the design of is a bit too modern, but noone can stay indifferent. RG and Bridges(see below) are the Symbols of the City in architectural sense, because of its unique design, at least i think so. PGE Park. It is more than a park, no matter whether you Beaver's or for Duck's fan.(well, mb a bit it does). But each time passing it i have a feeling i can't explain. It is like PGE Park is alive no matter whether it is hot game there and all the seats are taken or whether it is 12pm when it is quiet and noone is inside. It is like it has a sole. And a heart. Yes, i am aware about some copyright issues we can face here. Well, ok we cant use photos and images. Can we use their names? I hope so. Or mb we can use some kind of drownings of our own? They should not be exact copies with some photoshop filters of course. Or mb we can simply use a Basketball Ball and a Baseball Ball? Just think of it, these two would be neat points on the Map for sure.

2. Bridges. It is not a secret that Portland's another famous nickname is Bridgetown. Indeed, there are plenty of them here and wow they are really marvelous. I really love them. I can stare and stare and stare. Especially, Hawthorne and Morrison ones. I am much more fascinated by Bridges than Sport Arenas so i better go straight to my point). First of all, i really understand it is hard to work with bridges(whether you are making map in CC or working on a real one in real life) in general. But it would be great, just to see them marked different on the map and a legend with their names. Well, mb that's too much and just not the way you see this map. But, please, consider using Bridges as alternative to MAX's stops if you would face difficulties when working on Bonus system for the metro line. Bridges. There are plenty of them(well, 6 on this map) and it wont be hard to make a Bonus system for them. Like 1 army for holding 3 Bridges etc. Just keep it in mind, Bridgetown Dweller!

3. Colors. They are good and i like them. Anyhow, i think you should make a bigger difference between North and Southeast. Even though they dont have mutual borders. Southeast should be "pinker".And then Northeast. Don't you think it should be real Orange instead of Dark Orange. Or whatever color you wanna see it. I mean, this is City of Roses, of flowers. And flowers are bright and colorful and beautiful. I mean, i would understand that kind of color in Seattle or another city or town( take Astoria for example ) where it often rains. Well, you got the point, don't you?

Looking Forward Very Much on this One and will be Glad to Participate or Help!

I've had a lot of requests for including Rose Garden, but I still believe the "cons" of adding these outweigh the "pros".

a) As Mr. Benn noted, the map is already very busy. I could squeeze the Rose Garden into Irvington, but trying to fit PGE into Goose Hollow would require a major re-design.b) In my opinion, adding them to the map does not improve gameplay. There are already many bonuses options and I couldn't fit them into existing bonus structure. It would be a new bonus for two territories?

When I look at comparable city maps none of them show arenas. The Yankees stadium is arguably the most historic park in the US and yet the NYC map does not display it. Same goes for the Habs' ice rink in Montreal. There is no Candlestick Park in San Francisco (even though the region is shown) & no Mariners, Seahawks or Key Arena in Puget Sound. If adding PGE and Rose Garden improved gameplay, I would be all for it, but I have not seen a case made for that aspect.

It is not a secret that Portland's another famous nickname is Bridgetown. Indeed, there are plenty of them here and wow they are really marvelous. I really love them. I can stare and stare and stare.

On this, I completely agree! I love our bridges. St. John's is my personal favorite.

...it would be great, just to see them marked different on the map and a legend with their names. But, please, consider using Bridges as alternative to MAX's stops if you would face difficulties when working on Bonus system for the metro line.

.

I'll think this one over. While it would be fairly simple to set up a bridge bonus system, I still worry that it would further clutter the map. I don't think I'd be willing to abandon the MAX element, but at the very least, I promise I will put some more effort into the visual look of the bridges and pay some homage to our alternative nickname!

3. Colors. They are good and i like them. Anyhow, i think you should make a bigger difference between North and Southeast. Even though they dont have mutual borders. Southeast should be "pinker".

I can do that.

And then Northeast. Don't you think it should be real Orange instead of Dark Orange.

I tried to keep the colors in a similar hue. I will play around with the colors, but I think combining several bright colors would be too overpowering to look at for long periods. I may be wrong though, so I'll give it a shot!

I mean, i would understand that kind of color in Seattle or another city or town( take Astoria for example ) where it often rains.

Don't forget - it is quite rainy in Portland too! (especially during this season)

Last edited by lostatlimbo on Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

...it would be great, just to see them marked different on the map and a legend with their names. But, please, consider using Bridges as alternative to MAX's stops if you would face difficulties when working on Bonus system for the metro line. Bridges.

I earnestly tried to think of a way to pay some homage to Portland's bridges here, but changing the look makes it more difficult for non-Portland players to identify them as consistent gameplay icons. I also can't find room on the map for a bridge legend without making everything else significantly smaller. I'm still open to other ideas on this.

I'd love to make a map that extols all of the Rose City's many virtues, but cannot alienate other players around the world who are more interested in a fun, usable map than details about our bridge system or our arenas. I guess they will just have to come visit the city to really enjoy & understand the Bridgetown nickname.

lostatlimbo wrote:I'd love to make a map that extols all of the Rose City's many virtues, but cannot alienate other players around the world who are more interested in a fun, usable map than details about our bridge system or our arenas. I guess they will just have to come visit the city to really enjoy & understand the Bridgetown nickname.

good start, though u must be careful with ur bonuses. looking at a 2-player game, it's certain that at least one player (if we include the neutral "player") will have at least 2 universities at the start, so the bonus ought to be +1 for holding 3 universities, not +1 for 2. similarly for the bike lanes: in a 2-player game, someone is certain to have at least 2 bike lanes and very likely to have 3 at the start, so the small bonus ought to be +1 for holding 4 bike lanes, not +1 for 2. by a similar argument (though this one isn't so obvious), the 4 public parks bonus ought to be for holding 5. conversely, each of the bonuses for holding all of something (such as all 4 symbols) can be increased, since this is difficult to do.

try to put in some impassables such as trees, walls or highways since, at the moment, nearly every territory is a border territory. the biggest impassable, the river, can be given a greater effect by removing one or two bridges. the least well-known max stations can also be removed to create impassables.

I'll try to post another draft with your suggestions this weekend. thanks.

re: the Max stations - since those are all territories - they are much less passable than bridges, since you would have to attack 'through' the Max station, rather than 'over' it. I will still look at dropping a couple, but I'm also told the current 42 territory count is ideal for even drops.

I must admit, this map continues to surprise me. It has a fun look to it. Some bits need some work - the weird blob between Oregon Zoo and Goose Hollow foe example - but it's coming along. The biggest element that isn't working for me visually at all is the photo behind the title... this is a map of vivid, primary colors, and strong graphic elements, but the top of the map looks like it belongs on a different map entirely.

Other bits look great - I especially like how you've approached the rail lines with bold strokes and sharp corners - though I notice that some corners are awkwardly rounded, like the blue corner below PSU. What I think makes the rail lines work is that they are unabashedly flat and bold, as are the colors of the regions which I also like. Ditto the bikes, the botom legend, and the shoe (which makes me chuckle - I wonder what Phil would say??) Meanwhile the bridges are not flat and not bold - you've muted the color palette for the bridges and made them 3-D and shaded, making it look like some kid left some lego pieces on top of your map.

In terms of gameplay there are a few things to sort out still. For starters, we have always tried to avoid four-way borders. The four-way intersection will confuse players who will wonder if Alameda and Irvington connect... i wonder that myself.

And forgive me for not following the discussion on this, but to me the bikes attacking each other makes no sense. Why a bike would allow you to jump directly from St. Johns to Reed leaves me perplexed. It's not logical, and I don't really think it makes the play of the map any better. in fact, I'd say it makes things worse because now the regions are impossible to hold - in the NE every territory is a border, and in the SE only two territs are safe. Wow, now that i look at it, downtown and NW are all border terits as well, and N has only one safe territory. Potentially frustrating map to play, because with unholdable regions with big bonuses, as it will come down to who gets the best drop to start.

And some of the graphic elements lead to gameplay confusion. Station 7 seems to be able to attack a causeway of some sort... is that a link to Swan Island? NW ind?