For starters, the WC3 hero is Intelligence based. Good observation. However, did you know that the Shaman hero from WC3 is also intelligence based? The Paladin hero is strength based. The Brewmaster is strength based, and so forth. In short, that really doesn't matter. The Tinker can be AGI/AGI/INT, or AGI/INT/INT.

As for the ranged weapons, we only need one DPS spec to handle that. Make that the AGI spec. Tank has to be melee, and Warlocks proved that INT tanks can work. Heals has to be INT for balance purposes. Also if healing is the "alchemist spec", it would be using mainly abilities and not auto-attacks.

In short, a Tinker class doesn't need to be entirely ranged. Tanking has to be melee, and healing has to be INT. Its not an issue.

---------- Post added 2013-05-09 at 09:47 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Gothicshark

/snip

The very fact that you divided pet DPS from standard DPS is laughable. Warlocks and Frost mages are the same as Death Knights now? Really?

Ogre (hopefully), no armor no weapons nothing, melee/range class.
Melee for abilities like , Head bash/the bitchslap/ bellyflop / headbutt...all the dirty kind of things used in a fight and ranged for things like; Belch/vomit/fart/throw snot/spit (maybe some of them can be used as aoe abilities if you use your imagination). Just give the abilities more subtle names so it doesnt offend the usual plebs then off we go
Bring some fun back to warcraft
This i why i should work for blizz.

Since we both know your vaunted Demon Hunter can't heal, its understandable why you would rig your chart.

Actually when discussing DPS you must consider if the DPS is divided by a pet. All Hunter Specs are split dps with the Pet, one of the biggest complaints with hunters is based on players not wanting a pet dps split. So yes Warlocks, Ice Mages, Hunters and Unholy Death Knights all Split DPS with pets. As for healing, when counting Tank Specs and Healing Specs.

Tank
Plate 3 Specs
Mail no specs
Leather 2 specs
Cloth almost 1 spec

So thats 5 specs of Tanking with a 1/2 spec of warlock being a decent off tank.

What is missing is a fully functional Ranged DPS class with no pets, which wears Mail armor, which can melee tank. Since Melee DPS is the most common Spec type in the game using a caster spec would be more balanced for the third flavor.

From this point its a case of finding how to fit a class design into the needs, and making it work with the lore. Just because the popularity of Demon Hunters both WC3 and D3, is why it seems to be the path of least resistance. Do you think they can get 1.8 million players back with a Tinker class? Since Gnomes and Goblins are the least popular races in the game. Or will they go with an Iconic class used by a popular race. ie Night Elves and Blood Elves.

You seem to forget Blizzard is making a product which needs to be sold to gamers.

Of all the suggestions only Demon Hunters and Necromancer would be popular enough to revitalize the game.

The hell with the tinker class sounds lame to me tbh....... Demon hunter now thats what people are waiting for they wil wear agility mail have 2 dps roles 1 is melee 1 is ranged with guns the third spec wil be tanking maybe intellect mail healing fill in as you wish but the former 2 are cool.

The hell with the tinker class sounds lame to me tbh....... Demon hunter now thats what people are waiting for they wil wear agility mail have 2 dps roles 1 is melee 1 is ranged with guns the third spec wil be tanking maybe intellect mail healing fill in as you wish but the former 2 are cool.

Diablo 3 Demon Hunters and WC Demon Hunters are entirely different, despite the same name. This is what people can't seem to grasp.

A Demon Hunter in the Warcraft universe is a light armored melee fighter using deception and demonic energy to dispatch foes. Iconic skills are Evasion (heightened senses allow them to "slow" time around them and dodge abilities,) Mana Burn which allowed them to destroy the magic in an enemy, and their ultimate of Metamorphosis where they temporarily become demons themselves and activate Immolation which ignited the air around them. They didn't use ranged weapons.

The Diablo 3 Demon Hunter is close to that of the Warcraft Dark Ranger in both abilities and aesthetics. The primary difference being the Dark Ranger has some skill in necromancy.

You can't just cross the two together and go on your merry way. It wouldn't make any sense at all and would water down the lore and concept of the Demon Hunter. Demon Hunters are an awesome idea for a new class, however Blizzard has already in the past given their iconic skills to other classes. Demonology Warlocks currently possess the ultimate and most iconic abilities of the Demon Hunter; Metamorphosis and Immolation. Meanwhile, Rogues possess Evasion and Priests were given Mana Burn (now removed entirely from the game.) I think we'll see Demon Hunters have more of an impact on the story in the future, but it's unlikely for them to me made into a playable class because of that. The class would lose a lot of its uniqueness in playstyle due to current class design and would feel more like an amalgamation and less of a new unique awesome class.

This is why I believe it's more likely to be a Tinker or Dark Ranger. Both could use ranged weapons. Both could Intellect Mail and/or Agility Mail. Dark Rangers could even use Agility Daggers. This would fix a lot of the loot itemization issues Ghostcrawler rants about wanting to fix every time it's brought up. Tinkers have some basis in the Warcraft universe, while Dark Rangers already exist in decent numbers on the side of the Horde (Troll Shadow Hunters and Forsaken Dark Rangers have some overlap.) Both are classes that could be built entirely from the ground up and have no creative limitations like the Demon Hunter would. Blizzard admitted during the Death Knight and Monk creation that when they build a new class, one of the things they look for is something they can build that's unique, awesome, and has no creative limits or overlap. Demon Hunters simply don't fit this bill from a design view.

Tinkers: Machinists using a plethora of different technologies to take down foes. Could even have alchemy related skills like poison sprays and such. Could be made as a tank, melee DPS, ranged DPS, or healer.

Dark Ranger: Marksman using shadow magic, necromancy, and even skilled melee combatants when needed. Could be given necromancy/soul magic and disease/shadow empowered ammunition for ranged combat and shadow manipulation for melee based combat. Could emcompass a variety of different and unique damage dealing playstyles.

Both of those options give Blizzard a way to fix itemization concerns while both having much more in terms of creative power and leeway for the developers.

Actually when discussing DPS you must consider if the DPS is divided by a pet.

Actually you don't, since those various specs that have a pet vary wildly from each other. You just can't lump them altogether because they have a minion. Warlocks are still a caster class for example, and Unholy DKs are still Melee DPS.

What is missing is a fully functional Ranged DPS class with no pets, which wears Mail armor, which can melee tank. Since Melee DPS is the most common Spec type in the game using a caster spec would be more balanced for the third flavor.

So why would you advocate for a Demon Hunter? Demon Hunters aren't ranged DPS, and they definitely aren't casters. In fact, a Demon Hunter would more than likely be melee DPS more than anything else.

From this point its a case of finding how to fit a class design into the needs, and making it work with the lore. Just because the popularity of Demon Hunters both WC3 and D3, is why it seems to be the path of least resistance. Do you think they can get 1.8 million players back with a Tinker class? Since Gnomes and Goblins are the least popular races in the game. Or will they go with an Iconic class used by a popular race. ie Night Elves and Blood Elves.

You seem to forget Blizzard is making a product which needs to be sold to gamers.

Of all the suggestions only Demon Hunters and Necromancer would be popular enough to revitalize the game.

A class isn't going to revitalize the game. Especially a bizarre amalgamation of a Demon Hunter that casts magic spells like a warlock, and then magically has a spec that turns them into a Rogue with a crossbow. The game is almost a decade old, its bound to begin a slow steady decline. The fact that its still going strong after 8 years while newer games collapse after less than 8 months is a testament to Blizzard not putting crap into the game just because its popular.

Diablo 3 Demon Hunters and WC Demon Hunters are entirely different, despite the same time. This is what people can't seem to grasp.

A Demon Hunter in the Warcraft universe is a light armored melee fighter using deception and demonic energy to dispatch foes. Iconic skills are Evasion (heightened senses allow them to "slow" time around them and dodge abilities,) Mana Burn which allowed them to destroy the magic in an enemy, and their ultimate of Metamorphosis where they temporarily become demons themselves and activate Immolation which ignited the air around them. They didn't use ranged weapons.

The Diablo 3 Demon Hunter is close to that of the Warcraft Dark Ranger in both abilities and aesthetics. The primary difference being the Dark Ranger has some skill in necromancy.

You can't just cross the two together and go on your merry way. It wouldn't make any sense at all and would water down the lore and concept of the Demon Hunter. Demon Hunters are an awesome idea for a new class, however Blizzard has already in the past given their iconic skills to other classes. Demonology Warlocks currently possess the ultimate and most iconic abilities of the Demon Hunter; Metamorphosis and Immolation. Meanwhile, Rogues possess Evasion and Priests were given Mana Burn (now removed entirely from the game.) I think we'll see Demon Hunters have more of an impact on the story in the future, but it's unlikely for them to me made into a playable class because of that. The class would lose a lot of its uniqueness in playstyle due to current class design and would feel more like an amalgamation and less of a new unique awesome class.

This is why I believe it's more likely to be a Tinker or Dark Ranger. Both could use ranged weapons. Both could Intellect Mail and/or Agility Mail. Dark Rangers could even use Agility Daggers. This would fix a lot of the loot itemization issues Ghostcrawler rants about wanting to fix every time it's brought up. Tinkers have some basis in the Warcraft universe, while Dark Rangers already exist in decent numbers on the side of the Horde (Troll Shadow Hunters and Forsaken Dark Rangers have some overlap.) Both are classes that could be built entirely from the ground up and have no creative limitations like the Demon Hunter would. Blizzard admitted during the Death Knight and Monk creation that when they build a new class, one of the things they look for is something they can build that's unique, awesome, and has no creative limits or overlap. Demon Hunters simply don't fit this bill from a design view.

Actually it is for Blizzard to define they could have called the Archer Diablo 3 a Ranger, the lore of all Fantasy calls that class a Ranger. instead they choose to name it Demon Hunter, which is a name not normally used to describe a class in Fantasy and is only shared with one other class, the one from Warcraft 3.

Although in Fiction a Hunter can be a 'Vampire Hunter', 'Demon Hunter', 'Troll Hunter' or insert any monster with Hunter, these are usually Ranger type Characters. See 'Van Helsing' for a good example. I am sure the Diablo 3 class was based on this concept of a Monster Hunter. But since they are the only company with a popular RPG Character Class named Demon Hunter and they used it for two seemingly different classes. It is up to them how the work the class out.

But I should point out that even though Illidan started out as a Mage who knew a bit of Druid lore, he became essentially the first mortal Warlock and called himself a Demon Hunter. The Term was less about his Past class but his current roll, using the power of the enemy to fight the enemy. This means a Demon Hunter is only required to have demonic taint like a warlock. In the lore of the game Demon Hunters have a few rituals the drinking in of Demon Blood the burning out of the eyes, and a few tests of resolve and will. These are the required parts of a Warcraft Demon Hunter, the look is generally dual wielding, green glowing eyes behind a blindfold. That is all that has to be consistent with the original.

My proof is the Monk class, they took 1 spec from Lore, one Spec from Diablo 2 and made up the healer from scratch. Blizzard can do what they want with the material they have.

Actually you don't, since those various specs that have a pet vary wildly from each other. You just can't lump them altogether because they have a minion. Warlocks are still a caster class for example, and Unholy DKs are still Melee DPS.

So why would you advocate for a Demon Hunter? Demon Hunters aren't ranged DPS, and they definitely aren't casters. In fact, a Demon Hunter would more than likely be melee DPS more than anything else.

A class isn't going to revitalize the game. Especially a bizarre amalgamation of a Demon Hunter that casts magic spells like a warlock, and then magically has a spec that turns them into a Rogue with a crossbow. The game is almost a decade old, its bound to begin a slow steady decline. The fact that its still going strong after 8 years while newer games collapse after less than 8 months is a testament to Blizzard not putting crap into the game just because its popular.

I see you don't play a pet class, As an Unholy DK, and a Demonology Warlock. I can tell you these classes play entirely different from Fire mages and Fury Warriors, which I also play. As a Pet Class you have to be aware of what your pet is doing, you have to manage to positions and your dps at the same time, the game play of an Unholy DK and a Demon Warlock is nearly identical. In fact with the updates with Warlocks, I usually play right in the sphere of melee range anyway. The point is Pet classes play very differently to Non-pet classes, and must be considered separately when classifying roles of a class/Spec.

---------- Post added 2013-05-09 at 04:25 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Teriz

Blizzard is not going to create a bow/crossbow class called a Demon Hunter. It would cause too much class confusion with Hunters.

Its the same reason you will never see "Battle Mages", or "Arch Druids" in the game as classes.

Blizzard did just that by naming the Ranger a Demon Hunter in Diablo 3. You hate the idea because it is clear what Blizzard plans to do, it will brake the lore. But they have shown in the past that they will break the lore. The choice by Blizzard to name the Ranger in Diablo 3 a Demon Hunter was significant and game changing, since they made the only ever Demon Hunter RPG class in the history of RPGs.

Not really Gothic and this is from a Beast Master main spec Hunter. Pets in this game are basically dots with a health bar that have a proc every now and then no different than others. The only difference between a pet classes's dots and that of other classes is visuals.

My pet serves the same purpose as that of a Mage's bomb. I put it on the target. It does damage. Occasionally I get to press Focus Fire! That's the extent of my gameplay interaction. Use /petattack macros and suddenly they literally become a glorified dot.

As stated before, Demon Hunters are nothing more than a fan dream. Due to current design of Warlocks, the odds of a Demon Hunter are slim to none. It would have to be a melee DPS just to hold true to class lore when we just had two. It would be another leather wearer when we just had Monks and the loot type is bloated. Warlocks already own its iconic skill. That's three strikes against it. There's simply no way to recreate the Demon Hunter in WoW without destroying the idea what it's supposed to be. It wouldn't even be a Demon Hunter except in the name alone.

Demon Hunters will be seen more later on, but not as a playable class. There's just not enough there to make it distinctive and unique. Unless you're going to advocate an entire rebuild of Demonology (again) and have Metamorphosis removed just so Demon Hunters can have 1 feasible spec....

Not really Gothic and this is from a Beast Master main spec Hunter. Pets in this game are basically dots with a health bar that have a proc every now and then no different than others. The only difference between a pet classes's dots and that of other classes is visuals.

My pet serves the same purpose as that of a Mage's bomb. I put it on the target. It does damage. Occasionally I get to press Focus Fire! That's the extent of my gameplay interaction. Use /petattack macros and suddenly they literally become a glorified dot.

As stated before, Demon Hunters are nothing more than a fan dream. Due to current design of Warlocks, the odds of a Demon Hunter are slim to none. It would have to be a melee DPS just to hold true to class lore when we just had two. It would be another leather wearer when we just had Monks. Warlocks already own its iconic skill.

Demon Hunters will be seen more later on, but not as a playable class. There's just not enough there to make it distinctive and unique. Unless you're going to advocate an entire rebuild of Demonology (again) and have Metamorphosis removed just so Demon Hunters can have 1 feasible spec....

So I take it that you don't care if the pet dies in Combat and drops your DPS by 30-50%. Since it's just a Dot which applies an important part of your DPS, You don't tweak it's abilities, and you don't carefully consider which pet is right for your game play. Either you s*** as a hunter or you are full of it.

If the pet dies in combat, I messed up, especially with HotP. The amount of times my pet has died in a raid this expansion has been a whole ONE and that was Heroic Horridon before I realized my pet could be fixated on by the Drakkari adds, which I then fixed by weaving in Mend Pet every 10 seconds.

If the pet dies in combat, I messed up, especially with HotP. The amount of times my pet has died in a raid this expansion has been a whole 1 and that was Heroic Horridon before I realized my pet could be fixated on by the adds, which I then fixed by weaving in Mend Pet.

So you do use mend pet, which means you don't treat it as a dot to place and forget. As I said, I also Play Fire Mages, and Fury Warriors and having a changes the game play significantly. Honestly one reason I dislike Hunters is they don't have an instant pet rez. meaning if for any reason the pet dies you loose that percentage of DPS until the end of battle. I also have a Hunter but I stopped playing the Hunter in BC.

So you do use mend pet, which means you don't treat it as a dot to place and forget. As I said, I also Play Fire Mages, and Fury Warriors and having a changes the game play significantly. Honestly one reason I dislike Hunters is they don't have an instant pet rez. meaning if for any reason the pet dies you loose that percentage of DPS until the end of battle. I also have a Hunter but I stopped playing the Hunter in BC.

Hunters have Heart of the Phoenix which provides an instant rez if they die, and next patch has a 3 second pet rez. It's also the only fight this entire expansion that can actually kill your pet and could even be considered a bug since they don't fixate on Warlocks or Death Knight pets.

Pets basically don't die in PvE situations anymore unless you start misdirecting things. This was taken care of with the Avoidance mechanic added to them.

I should point out, I'm not arguing because I love Demon Hunters, I'm pointing it out because it is obvious what Blizzard is planning to do, I would love to play a Tinker Class My Main is a Gnome, I'm pissed that Gnomes can have hunters when all the guns are designed and built by Gnomes, who then sell them to everyone else.

I am also aware Blizzard considers Gnomes a Joke race, and Goblins don't get much more love than Gnomes. Neither Race is popular with the Player base even though the Racials are some of the strongest in game.

So a class which is focused on the not popular races is just not in the cards, so that leaves a short list of past classes, Demon Hunter, Ranger, Necromancer. Because of Diablo 3 they can merge Ranger and Demon Hunter, it sucks for lore, but they have proved lore will not stop them from an idea if they can sell more copies of the game. This leaves necromancer as the Odd hero Class out, technically there is room for it, especially if they merge it with the Diablo 2 Necromancer.

Also I should point out look at the Diablo 2 classes and the WOW classes in Vanilla, Almost Every Diablo Class became a Spec in WOW. Even Monks were Merged between the Brewmaster and the D2 monk. So yah saying Blizzard won't doesn't stop them.

The reason I'm more inclined to believe we'll get Dark Rangers over Demon Hunters or even Tinkers is that it's less of a stretch of lore, they don't have to change any concepts at all, and still accomplish the same end result of a new unique class. You still get someone to use ranged weapons, still someone on mail (even Int Mail,) and they have a lot of routes to diversify the specs in a way that makes sense. Tinkers have a chance but even they're more unlikely of an addition than a class like a Dark Ranger that has basis in the game through Sylvanas's active Dark Ranger training and even the Shadow Hunters of the Trolls.

A Demon Hunter in WoW would have to be a light armored melee fighter which we already have many of and would create addiitonal item bloat. The second you start handing Demon Hunters ranged weapons and mail armor, you've basically already gone half way into making a Dark Ranger. A tinker has a chance but the specs would lack diversity unless you're doing the standard tank/DPS/healer hybrid which doesn't add a whole lot. They added Monks and Death Knights as tank/melee/healer and tank/melee and the numbers of tanks and healers still haven't gone up (Ghostcrawler's own words.) Dark Rangers cross ranged (and even melee if needed) combat with the skills of a necromancer. That's three damage specs right there that could be created and have zero conflictions with existing class itemization, and being a damage oriented class would be very appealing to a wider audience of WoW.

Last edited by Bullettime; 2013-05-10 at 12:02 AM.
Reason: made the point more clear at the end

I should expand on what I said in case people haven't spent a year or more playing D2.

Monks in WOW took core abilities from Several Classes in D2, and took the name and game play style from D3.

Amazons, Barbarians, and Druids. Had many core abilities tanken by Monks in both WOW and D3. I was just being lazy and not going into a long description because I figure people are smart enough to see this for themselves.

Also D3 was in development since 2005 so Blizzard had plenty of time to trade ideas between WOW and D3. Just look at the leveling trees.

Also Monks were a Diablo 1: Hellfire class. so technically the Amazons, Barbarians, and Druids took the place of the Monk.

It is silly to break out pet DPS specs as something significantly different.

It's also silly to separate "ranged" and "caster".

DPS splits into two overarching categories, melee and ranged, based solely on how close to the enemy they have to be. Hunters, mages, boomkins, etc. all stand back and bombard their target. Everything else is flavor.

It is silly to break out pet DPS specs as something significantly different.

It's also silly to separate "ranged" and "caster".

DPS splits into two overarching categories, melee and ranged, based solely on how close to the enemy they have to be. Hunters, mages, boomkins, etc. all stand back and bombard their target. Everything else is flavor.

I agree with the above interpretation. Whether the resource mechanic is mana or focus or runes or whatever new snazzy name someone comes up with for a new class is irrelevant, and whether the class has permanent pets or timed minions or no minions at all etc is of no consequence. Only the range to the target is relevant regarding actual playstyle, so the division is melee dps, ranged dps, tanks and healers. Blizzard did some small experimentation with the 'melee healer' idea but considering how little it caught fire I doubt we'll ever see 'ranged tanks' or other crazy ideas and instead any new class is just more of what we already have but in a new shiny package.

I'd rather just see the existing classes made more specialised. 3 new disciplines or specialisations for each of the 3 existing specialisations for a total of 9 sub classes per class for a total of 99 different types of playable characters in the game. Roleplaying games are full of these so it won't be hard to make them at all (abjurers, conjurers, necromancers, invokers, diviners, necromancers, buccaneers, swashbucklers, smugglers, assassins, spies, etc etc). Just invent a few new and interesting abilities to each of them coupled with some visual player model changes that accompany the discipline choice. On top of that the only thing needed is a new continent with plenty of zones and updated player models and graphics and the next expansion is a huge hit once again. Perhaps bigger than ever. A new class attracts only those eager on re-rolling, but a proper rehaul of the existing ones will have a much larger impact.