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After some additional testing, it's clear now that the latest firmware updates didn't solve my dropout problems. In reality, I'm now noticing them in more channels than before. I'm noticing them not only with PBS but also with FOX local OTA. I'm also noticing them with most Dish HD movie channels. Again, dropouts are not common but happen with noticeable frequency. They are random and not repeatable by rewinding. They happen over analog and optical connections. I've never noticed them with live shows, so I believe they're DVR related. Some shows are more prone to produce dropouts than others.

Dood, I feel your pain and cannot make any excuses for how long it has taken E* to resolve this issue....way too long IMHO. I've essentially learned to live with it by recording shows on the affected channels via OTA. Not a fix, but a good workaround if you have an decent OTA antenna.

What strikes me most about your note is the mention of audio issues on ABC. Here in St. Louis, the problem (as reported by a few, including me) seems pretty much limited to the local CBS and NBC affiliates (1080i channels) since introduction of Rel L6.16. I'll also bet you see it occur more often when the video source is film rather than tape or live. If ABC is giving you fits, I must wonder if something else is possibly going on with your receiver. ABC and Fox cleared up completely with L6.16 but then CBS and NBC caught the "disease".

Dood, I feel your pain and cannot make any excuses for how long it has taken E* to resolve this issue....way too long IMHO. I've essentially learned to live with it by recording shows on the affected channels via OTA. Not a fix, but a good workaround if you have an decent OTA antenna.

What strikes me most about your note is the mention of audio issues on ABC. Here in St. Louis, the problem (as reported by a few, including me) seems pretty much limited to the local CBS and NBC affiliates (1080i channels) since introduction of Rel L6.16. I'll also bet you see it occur more often when the video source is film rather than tape or live. If ABC is giving you fits, I must wonder if something else is possibly going on with your receiver. ABC and Fox cleared up completely with L6.16 but then CBS and NBC caught the "disease".

I do stand corrected, as the majority of the problems are on CBS-HD and to a lesser degree NBC-HD.

I live far enough from STL that OTA channels are not an option without an outdoor antenna. The problem is so bad that I will go back to DirecTv when my contract is up.

The thing about the audio drops problem I don't understand is how it can be a box-level software patch problem when the issue only seems to be in certain DMAs (St. Louis, especially)? If it were truly a software problem as Dish techs say, wouldn't it be affecting a wider range of users?

It seems to be there is a problem with the St. Louis uplink.

I would think, too that if Dish is truly just "passing on the signal" then it should be relatively blind to resolution or framerate-specific content, right? I just don't understand why crawls or local commercial insertions or 24 vs 30fps should make any difference in what Dish is delivering to my receiver in my specific DMA.

Like I said, if it were a wider decoding or software problem, wouldn't the problem be more widespread and show up on more channels than just the HD locals?

Sheesh. Just when you think you start to understand this technology...

Well, I don't live in St. Louis. I live in Northern Minnesota, and I have the problem with many HD channels, OTA or Dish provided. The problem *does not* come from the source and is not a signal quality problem. Live audio is not affected and SD programming is not affected. Only HD recorded audio is affected, and it's random and never repeats on the same spot when I rewind, although it may reappear on another spot. I have to rule out everything else except for a software or hardware DVR-related problem.

Why do you have to rule everything else except the DVR Dr. Cool. The audio problems that are currently being discussed are mainly centered around locals and right now it appears to me that St. Louis DMA is ground zero.

If you are seeing it across all HD channels I would suspect something very unique to your configuration because that is not what the threads here are indicating. If audio issues move into the nationals channels this has a much higher exposure across the user base here so I would expect a lot more reports which I have not seen.

How often are you running into these audio issues? (How many times a day do you hear them). Is there a particular national channel you hear them on?

I definitely agree with the following.

1) Audio issues are not repeatable when you jump back so that tends to lend itself to the fact it is not stream related.
2) Seeing audio issues both local and national so that tells me that it is not a local DMA issue.

But I personally would not conclude that the issue lies in the receiver from there. for the following other pieces of info.

1) It is occurring with both MPEG2 and MPEG4 streams.
2) There are not others in large quantities reporting the same experiences.

Not sure what you are running into Dr. Cool, but I definitely think it is different from what the St. Louis group is experiencing and I personally I would not declare the issue software related.

Wonder if there is anyone else in Minnesota that can report their experiences....

Lets see if we can confirm the audio issue. Is their a particular program you record where it happens 100% of the time?

<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

The thing about the audio drops problem I don't understand is how it can be a box-level software patch problem when the issue only seems to be in certain DMAs (St. Louis, especially)? If it were truly a software problem as Dish techs say, wouldn't it be affecting a wider range of users?

It seems to be there is a problem with the St. Louis uplink.

I would think, too that if Dish is truly just "passing on the signal" then it should be relatively blind to resolution or framerate-specific content, right? I just don't understand why crawls or local commercial insertions or 24 vs 30fps should make any difference in what Dish is delivering to my receiver in my specific DMA.

Like I said, if it were a wider decoding or software problem, wouldn't the problem be more widespread and show up on more channels than just the HD locals?

Sheesh. Just when you think you start to understand this technology...

Remember... We had an audio fix in the receiver that did help a number of DMAs... Not everyone was effect by the issue so it definitely does happen.

My guess is there is all sorts of different technologies on the producing and sending side of the equation with all sorts of different configurations.

The St. Louis one is sending something in the stream that the receiver is not handling properly. You can fix it at the producing end or the receiving end. Guess based on the reports the determined the fix should be on the receiving end.

A good analogy would be the PC industry. You may have one set of software (OS) but all sorts of external influence (Drivers etc) and those influence play a part in the end user experience. Some users have no issues while others feel pain.

I hope St. Louis soon will be not feel the pain any more.

<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

I was told on this forum months ago a fix was right around the corner and to be patient. So here we are many months deep into the SAME problem and ..... Nothing has been done.

Actually there was a fix and it did fix a number of users that was experiencing Audio issues. St. Louis's issue obviously was not the one that they fixed and if you go and read the previous release threads (Audio ones included) you will see a number of posts indicating that the Audio issues being reported my be one defect or multiple ones. Hard to tell at this point because the experiences being reported was ranging from "All good" to "Really bad".

As for being told... I am sure you were told that there was a fix but I don't think anyone indicated that that a fix would address all audio issues people are reporting.

I know that people in St. Louis is feeling pain and I understand that. As for the length of time.. Well given the reports and the history around the issue it is obviously a tough nut to crack. There has been at least one fix pushed to address it and it caught a large percentage of the issues ("Looking at it from a National perspective"), but did not catch all. Someone posted that they were told their is another fix that requires a lot of testing because of the scope of the fix. Is this guaranteed to fix all issues? Nope.. I am sure the people working on it feel it will but since all root causes are not known for the people reporting the issue their is no way to guarantee the fix will address them all (Just like the first one).

All we can do as users here is to be detailed in reporting our findings and experiences and if you get tapped on your shoulder to take a download to check if the fix truly did address the issue to step up if you feel comfortable and help be part of the process.

Should you have to deal with this.. Nope.. but these systems are complex and as such defects do spring up from time to time. The little bit of good news is based on reports from users here is that they are aware of it and do appear to be actively trying to solve the issue rather then declaring it hardware or claiming an external defect out of their control.

<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

This issue (in St. Louis) was introduced by a software upgrade. Rel 4.49 did not have this problem. While it could be coincidental, common sense would dictate that the "bug" is somehow related to the new software.

As "fixes" progressed, the problem clearly migrated (again, in St. Louis) from the two 720p HD locals to the two 1080i HD locals where it remains with the current release.

IMHO, a software change introduced this issue and another software change moved the issue to other channels. This should be ample proof that software will eventually resolve the issue in St. Louis.

Actually there was a fix and it did fix a number of users that was experiencing Audio issues. St. Louis's issue obviously was not the one that they fixed and if you go and read the previous release threads (Audio ones included) you will see a number of posts indicating that the Audio issues being reported my be one defect or multiple ones. Hard to tell at this point because the experiences being reported was ranging from "All good" to "Really bad".

As for being told... I am sure you were told that there was a fix but I don't think anyone indicated that that a fix would address all audio issues people are reporting.

I know that people in St. Louis is feeling pain and I understand that. As for the length of time.. Well given the reports and the history around the issue it is obviously a tough nut to crack. There has been at least one fix pushed to address it and it caught a large percentage of the issues ("Looking at it from a National perspective"), but did not catch all. Someone posted that they were told their is another fix that requires a lot of testing because of the scope of the fix. Is this guaranteed to fix all issues? Nope.. I am sure the people working on it feel it will but since all root causes are not known for the people reporting the issue their is no way to guarantee the fix will address them all (Just like the first one).

All we can do as users here is to be detailed in reporting our findings and experiences and if you get tapped on your shoulder to take a download to check if the fix truly did address the issue to step up if you feel comfortable and help be part of the process.

Should you have to deal with this.. Nope.. but these systems are complex and as such defects do spring up from time to time. The little bit of good news is based on reports from users here is that they are aware of it and do appear to be actively trying to solve the issue rather then declaring it hardware or claiming an external defect out of their control.

I do appreciate your levity, but don't you think that Dish Network should at the very least "own- up" to the issue? Not only have I not received any kind of note via snail mail, when I call and talk to a CSR, they tell me they have never heard of such a problem and tell me to "reboot" the system. I mean isn't that their standard answer for most problems?

Again, why doesn't Dish Network offer some kind of rebate because they are NOT delivering what I am paying for?

Rebooting is step one in most software related issues whether it be a PC or a DVR. Easiest and the least costly.

Based on what I know of Dish CSR system posted here, CSRs are not well versed in all the receivers from a defect perspective. They appear to be able to look things up, but based on my experience of looking up defects as a engineer depending on the reports it is not a easy task to associated something a person is telling you to a particular defect being reported. It would be nice to have more transparency in terms of software fixes, enhancements, and outstanding defects but it just is something that is not common in this sector and though I personally would like to see it I also understand the downside of doing such a policy and understand why a company might not want to do it.

As for Dish proactively informing people of this. Good question, but from my experience I am not aware of any company in this industry that provides any type of proactive notification system regarding software defects. My advice would be to email the CEO office and in a polite stern email, describe the experience you are having, indicate it appears from your research that the problem is software related, and what you feel is fair. My opinion is they should credit back the cost of locals given you locals are not providing what they should be.

<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

Other than adding L6.17 to the name, this thread should still be viable. L6.17 did not address an audio dropout issue as far as I know.

For the record, on my ViP722 with L6.17 I still have audio dropouts on NBC and CBS locals off the satellite in the Bay Area; just annoying, but still there. It occurs on all four locals on my ViP612 which has not had a software update.

"In a hundred years there'll be a whole new set of people."
"Always poke the bears. They sleep too much for their own good."

Yes, audio dropouts continue to happen even after a power plug reboot. I just had six of them while watching "Judgment at Nuremberg" recorded from HDNet Movies. Those are the same random dropouts that I've been having since FW 4 or 5, brief and not repeatable by rewinding. It means that nothing appears to have changed since the first FW upgrade that created the problem.

Other than adding L6.17 to the name, this thread should still be viable. L6.17 did not address an audio dropout issue as far as I know.

For the record, on my ViP722 with L6.17 I still have audio dropouts on NBC and CBS locals off the satellite in the Bay Area; just annoying, but still there. It occurs on all four locals on my ViP612 which has not had a software update.

A huge DITTO for St. Louis as well. Sooner or later this will be fixed, but an update or attempt at a fix sure would be nice.

This issue (in St. Louis) was introduced by a software upgrade. Rel 4.49 did not have this problem. While it could be coincidental, common sense would dictate that the "bug" is somehow related to the new software....

That's an interesting point, and I hadn't looked at it that way, that software introduced the problem so hopefully software can fix it. I hope this is, indeed, the case.

I'm still struggling to understand what it could be that is different about the St. Louis local situation that is causing so much trouble. Moreover I'd be interested to know if there are any folks in St. Louis NOT experiencing the issue with their HD (sat) locals.

I wouldn't say that the dropout problem ever "migrated." Before L616 (or was it 615?), I had dropouts on ALL local HD satellite stations, not just 720p FOX and ABC. The release did fix audio problems on ABC&FOX.

Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to be able to close the book on this little chapter of Dish annoyances. But for now, this thread definitely needs to stay open. If there's concern about an older firmware version being mentioned in a current thread, I wonder if we should spin off St. Louis HD local issues to its own discussion, so other issues affecting other stations can be address separately, since they seem to be separate issues?

You see, some have suggested that the problem could be due to a hardware defect or overheating of my ViP622.
I'll repeat: this is clearly not the case. As we all know very well, the problem started with a firmware upgrade. My ViP622 was perfect for almost a year before the dropouts started. And above all the dropouts happen only with *some channels* or *some shows*, and only in HD. Examples: *I've never had dropouts* with many HD shows such as "The Sopranos" on A&E. Never. Not even one. Watched almost the entire "The Sopranos" series on HD (it's Dolby Digital 2.0), through many different FW versions, and never had even one dropout.
On the other hand, I have dropouts *every time* with PBS OTA shows such as "NOVA" (Dolby Digital 2.0) and with many HDNet movies (mostly Dolby Digital 5.1) and also with shows such as "Enterprise" (this one started having dropouts after one of the latest FW upgrades, it's Dolby Digital 5.1).
Some have also suggested the problem is not widespread. I doubt it's true for a simple reason: people like my wife don't notice it. She's not an audiophile and therefore she doesn't tune in when the sound goes out for less than a second, like I do.

Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to be able to close the book on this little chapter of Dish annoyances. But for now, this thread definitely needs to stay open. If there's concern about an older firmware version being mentioned in a current thread, I wonder if we should spin off St. Louis HD local issues to its own discussion, so other issues affecting other stations can be address separately, since they seem to be separate issues?

Nope.. what I will do is add the L6.17 to the thread in addition to L6.16 to indicate folks are still dealing with some issues.

Based on some other posts.. We still may be dealing with multiple issues here.

<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

You see, some have suggested that the problem could be due to a hardware defect or overheating of my ViP622.I'll repeat: this is clearly not the case. As we all know very well, the problem started with a firmware upgrade. My ViP622 was perfect for almost a year before the dropouts started. And above all the dropouts happen only with *some channels* or *some shows*, and only in HD. Examples: *I've never had dropouts* with many HD shows such as "The Sopranos" on A&E. Never. Not even one. Watched almost the entire "The Sopranos" series on HD (it's Dolby Digital 2.0), through many different FW versions, and never had even one dropout.On the other hand, I have dropouts *every time* with PBS OTA shows such as "NOVA" (Dolby Digital 2.0) and with many HDNet movies (mostly Dolby Digital 5.1) and also with shows such as "Enterprise" (this one started having dropouts after one of the latest FW upgrades, it's Dolby Digital 5.1).Some have also suggested the problem is not widespread. I doubt it's true for a simple reason: people like my wife don't notice it. She's not an audiophile and therefore she doesn't tune in when the sound goes out for less than a second, like I do.

Your logic goes both ways Dr Cool.. If it was truly widespread and happening with a high rate of occurrence I am sure we will see more reports of issues given what you are describing is happening on HD nationals. It is possible that people are not watching what you are, but I have to expect that if it was happening in those shows I would expect others.

Sure it could be possible that hearing the audio issues could be related to the type of equipment installed (How good it does with audio) and how well people are tuned to the audio for sure. It also could be a perception that we each have on the frequency of audio issues. For some an occasional audio dropout goes on notice but to others it feels like a one of a thousand.

Also got the placebo effect going on. Read a bunch of thread about audio issues and then you start thinking you are hearing slight audio dropouts.

Not saying you fall into any of these categories Dr. Cool. Just some other possibilities that can be happening at any level from not happening to being part of peoples experiences that are being reported here.

That is what is so hard about these reports. People are definitely reporting differing experiences and the vary a lot which makes it really hard to pinpoint the exposure of the issues being reported. The only pattern I have been able to draw myself is that St. Louis is showing a pattern for the majority. All the other reports seem to be random in nature and could be anyone one of the above possibilities in addition to others not mentioned.

Tough nut to crack and a tough nut to even determine pain levels and exposure to the customer base.

<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

Read my lips: I know what I'm hearing. I have an electronic engineering degree, have done electronic gear repairing as a part-time job while young, and have been an audiophile for more than 30 years now. My audio gear is perfect, any minor problem would never go unnoticed. My amplifier is not the problem, since dropouts also happen with the direct analog connection to the TV set, all other gear turned off except for the ViP622 and the TV.
There's clearly only one screwed up piece of gear here, and it's called ViP622.
There's one way your argument can be correct: my ViP622 has a very subtle hardware defect that makes it "able" to discriminate between "The Sopranos" and "Star Trek Enterprise", for example. It's not PCM versus Dolby Digital (both are Dolby Digital) and it's not 5.1 versus 2.0 (dropouts happen with both).
In my experience, this kind of hardware failure would be *extremely unlikely*. Much more likely that Dish engineers screwed up with one of the soft upgrades (soft became unable to deal with some data in the streams; hardware cannot do all the fast processing at times), and now they cannot find their way back. Oh, this I know, since I've worked as a software engineer too, so I know how sausages are made...

Not doubting what you are experiencing Dr. Cool. Where my doubts lie are in the fact that the lots of the people have them but they are just not hearing them. I know people that post here are definitely more sensitive to audio and video issues and would pick up on them if they were experiencing them and that does not appear to be the case at this moment.

Definitely a possibility that the reason some are experiencing this issue while others is not on nationals could be tied to the viewers usage patterns. I definitely don't watch the shows you indicated.

Couple of follow up questions. Is it limited to the programs you mentioned or are you seeing this across all content you are watching. Of the content you are watching what is the frequency you are seeing it (2 times an hour? 20 times an hour?). Does it happen 100% of the times. Is there one particular show it happens a lot on. I would like to see if it happens in my configuration.

There could also be a difference between 622 and 722. I have a 722 so I that could be a factor here.

<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

Just to add some fuel to the fire... I have been recording all the CBS programs OTA via the 622 in order to have CC now that the 622 has 6.17 and there have been no audio problems. Last week I recorded ER OTA in that time slot and Eleventh Hour via satellite. When we watched Eleventh Hour last night there were a number of audio dropouts. I tried to set up CSY:NY tonight to record HD and SD via satellite and HD OTA as well. The 622 won't let me do that. I can get OTA and either HD or SD. It did, however let me do that for the local news at noon which is currently recording.

Duh! I couldn't set the second sat timer on CSI:NY because Lost is running until 9:05. I set a manual for 9:10 so I'll have SD, HD and OTA for the same program to check for audio dropouts. And there were none on the HD local news on the CBS affiliate at noon today.