Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

NEW YORK – His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios of America met yesterday with the Consistory of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the Ecumenical Patriarchate at the Archdiocese Headquarters in New York City. The Consistory requested the meeting from the Archbishop who is the Locum Tenens for the Diocese since the passing of the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos earlier this year. The members are Protopresbyter Frank P. Miloro, Chancellor; Protopresbyter Michael S. Rosco, Vice Chancellor; Protopresbyter Ronald A. Hazuda; Protopresbyter Michael Polanichka; Protopresbyter Lawrence R. Barriger; Protopresbyter Mark Leasure, and Protopresbyter Kenneth Bachofsky. Protopresbyter Mark Arey of the Department of Inter-Orthodox Relations, was also present in the meeting. Following the meeting, the Consistory attended a luncheon hosted by the Archbishop...

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

This meeting is the second of its kind since the repose of the late Metropolitan. Among the items for discussion were the following: the search for a new presiding bishop for the Diocese, administrative issues affecting various parishes, and representation of the Diocese at the celebrations at the Ecumenical Patriarchate in honor of His All Holiness’s Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s 20th Anniversary of election and enthronement as Ecumenical Patriarch. Archbishop Demetrios offered thanks the Consistory for their offering of stable, decisive stewardship during this season of “widowhood” of the Diocese. The Archbishop also offered a substantial contribution to the two Carpatho-Russian parishes affected by the recent floods in New Jersey. For their part, the clergy of the Consistory expressed their gratitude to the Archbishop for his leadership, generosity and pastoral care for the Diocese.

In other words, no news.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

This meeting is the second of its kind since the repose of the late Metropolitan. Among the items for discussion were the following: the search for a new presiding bishop for the Diocese, administrative issues affecting various parishes, and representation of the Diocese at the celebrations at the Ecumenical Patriarchate in honor of His All Holiness’s Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s 20th Anniversary of election and enthronement as Ecumenical Patriarch. Archbishop Demetrios offered thanks the Consistory for their offering of stable, decisive stewardship during this season of “widowhood” of the Diocese. The Archbishop also offered a substantial contribution to the two Carpatho-Russian parishes affected by the recent floods in New Jersey. For their part, the clergy of the Consistory expressed their gratitude to the Archbishop for his leadership, generosity and pastoral care for the Diocese.

This meeting is the second of its kind since the repose of the late Metropolitan. Among the items for discussion were the following: the search for a new presiding bishop for the Diocese, administrative issues affecting various parishes, and representation of the Diocese at the celebrations at the Ecumenical Patriarchate in honor of His All Holiness’s Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s 20th Anniversary of election and enthronement as Ecumenical Patriarch. Archbishop Demetrios offered thanks the Consistory for their offering of stable, decisive stewardship during this season of “widowhood” of the Diocese. The Archbishop also offered a substantial contribution to the two Carpatho-Russian parishes affected by the recent floods in New Jersey. For their part, the clergy of the Consistory expressed their gratitude to the Archbishop for his leadership, generosity and pastoral care for the Diocese.

This meeting is the second of its kind since the repose of the late Metropolitan. Among the items for discussion were the following: the search for a new presiding bishop for the Diocese, administrative issues affecting various parishes, and representation of the Diocese at the celebrations at the Ecumenical Patriarchate in honor of His All Holiness’s Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s 20th Anniversary of election and enthronement as Ecumenical Patriarch. Archbishop Demetrios offered thanks the Consistory for their offering of stable, decisive stewardship during this season of “widowhood” of the Diocese. The Archbishop also offered a substantial contribution to the two Carpatho-Russian parishes affected by the recent floods in New Jersey. For their part, the clergy of the Consistory expressed their gratitude to the Archbishop for his leadership, generosity and pastoral care for the Diocese.

In other words, no news.

Nothing heard on my front.....

There are several widowed and one or two celibate priests in ACROD. Word on the street is that those are not interested for any number of reasons. (age, family etc...)

What about that OCA baishop from ACROD? Can he not change dioceses, in order to become bishop of ACROD?

That about getting someone from the old country? (Slovakia)

Given the present snags that the Phanar has tripped on by being too clever by half with the implementation of Chambesy here, and the desperation over salvaging the canon 28 myth, neither translated a bishop from the OCA, nor getting someone from the Old Country (Slovakia OR ZAKARPATTIA OBLAST, UK), neither is an option (on the last part, besides the insistence of the Phanar that it is the only "Mother Church," there is the problem of what its Ukrainian flock would think of it. Those non-existent Ruthenians will NOT take a Ukrainian bishop).

I also suspect that the jelling of The Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America (the fact that Met. Sotirios refuses to participate and his Metropolitanate (although its bishops are on the list of canonical bishops) is not listed on the official website, although the UOCC is, as a jurisdiction, and a non-existent "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America is listed, and the official request IIRC went out to join Mexico and Central America to the South American Episcopal Assembly, etc. shows that that jelling hasn't solidified) is doing its part to delay things: had SCOBA still been up and running, which gave the Phanar another vote with ACROD-the executive committee for the ACOBNCA, which would also give I notice is not listed, and there is still the wrangling over the OCA on that.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Isa, that is the most convoluted post you've ever made. I can't make sense of it. Try again as if to be read by a person with little patience and with meager mental abilities, such as I.

Isa, my brother,

I have to agree with Aristokles. As conversant as I am with the ecclesial politics involved, you pretty much lost me except for your point that a Ukrainian bishop from the Old Country would be an unacceptable choice. (Have to say, my friend, that 'non-existent Ruthenians' - whatever point it is intended to convey - comes across as an unwarranted insult to the Carpatho-Rusyn faithful of ACROD.)

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 02:22:17 AM by Irish Melkite »

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"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

nor getting someone from the Old Country (Slovakia OR ZAKARPATTIA OBLAST, UK), neither is an option

The abbreviation for Ukraine is UA. UK means United Kingdom.Anyway, I mentioned only Slovakia, because a bishop from the MP serving under the EP is something I would not even consider nowadays...But the ties between ACROD and the Czechoslovak Church are cordial, so I could imagine someone coming from there.

Isa, that is the most convoluted post you've ever made. I can't make sense of it. Try again as if to be read by a person with little patience and with meager mental abilities, such as I.

Isa, my brother,

I have to agree with Aristokles. As conversant as I am with the ecclesial politics involved, you pretty much lost me except for your point that a Ukrainian bishop from the Old Country would be an unacceptable choice. (Have to say, my friend, that 'non-existent Ruthenians' - whatever point it is intended to convey - comes across as an unwarranted insult to the Carpatho-Rusyn faithful of ACROD.)

Many years,

Neil

The 'non-existent Ruthenians' comment was not intended by Isa as a slight on Ruthenians, rather it was a jab at those who claim that Ruthenians are not a distinct people in and of themselves.

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“Find the door of your heart, and you will discover it is the door to the kingdom of God.” - St. John Chrysostom

Isa, that is the most convoluted post you've ever made. I can't make sense of it. Try again as if to be read by a person with little patience and with meager mental abilities, such as I.

Isa, my brother,

I have to agree with Aristokles. As conversant as I am with the ecclesial politics involved, you pretty much lost me except for your point that a Ukrainian bishop from the Old Country would be an unacceptable choice. (Have to say, my friend, that 'non-existent Ruthenians' - whatever point it is intended to convey - comes across as an unwarranted insult to the Carpatho-Rusyn faithful of ACROD.)

Many years,

Neil

The 'non-existent Ruthenians' comment was not intended by Isa as a slight on Ruthenians, rather it was a jab at those who claim that Ruthenians are not a distinct people in and of themselves.

That's how I took it, he has always been respectful and understanding of the Rusyn point of view in these matters.

Isa, that is the most convoluted post you've ever made. I can't make sense of it. Try again as if to be read by a person with little patience and with meager mental abilities, such as I.

Isa, my brother,

I have to agree with Aristokles. As conversant as I am with the ecclesial politics involved, you pretty much lost me except for your point that a Ukrainian bishop from the Old Country would be an unacceptable choice. (Have to say, my friend, that 'non-existent Ruthenians' - whatever point it is intended to convey - comes across as an unwarranted insult to the Carpatho-Rusyn faithful of ACROD.)

LOL. Sorry, I should have put that in quotation marks, as it was sarcasm: I've been defending the existence of Ruthenians on a number of threads lately against those who deny it. Which is why I think that a Ukrainian bishop would be unacceptable (a ("Great") Russian bishop would be unwise, and given the history of why ACROD isn't in the OCA (bishops confusing Russophilia with the desire to be Russified), perhaps also unacceptable). Unacceptable to the Ruthenian faithful, who do exist, and of whom I see no difference in opinion with the public opinion in Zakarpattia.

Major Archbishop Sviatoslav speaks of Bp. Milan of Mukacheve as if he is a member of the UGCC synod. He's there as an observer, a point that many Ruthenians do not see emphasized enough. Given the near absolute adherence to the PoM in Zakarpattia >95% in the furthest West region of West Ukraine, I don't see any difference on the other side of Uzhhorod. So a bishop from there might please the Ruthenians here, though given the present state of affairs between the PoM and the EP, I don't see that happening. Particularly as it might raise the issue that if the bishop is from the PoM, why isn't ACROD under it in North America as its Mother Church, and not the EP? (which would also stir up the canonical question of the UOCUSA and UOCC, its Mother Church and the PoM and EP).

Given that most Ukrainians of whatever stripe look at the Ruthenians the way the Ukrainians claim the Russians look on the Ukrainians, a Ukrainian bishop from the rest of the Ukraine would bring that problem in, along with the issues of the PoM/EP.

Receiving someone from the UOC-KP or UAOCC etc., do I need to spell out the problems with that?but just to be clear

Quote

Kiev, UkraineThe Synod of dissident Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate, led by the former Russian Orthodox Metropolitan of Kiev, Filaret, has published a letter to Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and Patriarch Kyrill of Moscow concerning the work of the Inter-Orthodox Preparatory Commission that dealt with the issues of autocephaly and autonomy. The letter has an interesting reference to the OCA. The Ukrainian Synod points out:

“In fact, the participants of the session in Chambésy, among the other, took the trouble of determining the future destiny of the Orthodox Churches of Ukraine, Macedonia and Montenegro, Orthodox Church in America, as well as the destiny of the Orthodox Church in Japan, Moldavia, and Estonia. But no representatives of these Churches were involved either officially or unofficially in elaboration of the decisions which are of importance for their further being. It is obvious that such way of discussion of important issues of ecclesiastical life does not comply either with the spirit of the God’s justice and of the Gospel’s brotherly love (?f. John 7:51), or with the practice of the Ecumenical and pious Local Councils, where at even indubitable heretics had a chance to express their stance.” (emphasis in the original)

The Councils of the Kyiv Patriarchate have repeatedly turned to the Church of Constantinople, which is historically the Mother for the Ukrainian Church, with a request to consider the question of recognition of autocephaly of the Ukrainian Church. But these requests have been also left without due consideration and response by the present.

On top of all these problems is that the successor of Bp. Nicholas would have had a seat on SCOBA, which is only in the process of obsolescence it seems and where Met. Jonah of the OCA has a seat, and supposedly would have a seat on the Executive Committee of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America, which seems not to have been ironed out, as said committee is nowhere to be found on the ACOBNCA official website.

Despite protestations of Fr. Arey to the contrary, we do know that there is a controversy about the executive committee lacking the first/primatial hierarch of the OCA, which has been downplayed, e.g. by the Secratary of the ACOBNCA

Quote

Matthew: We’ve heard various things, reports, about the Executive Committee of the assembly, but my understanding is that the voting is actually done by the whole assembly. Is that right? The assembly itself is where the power lies essentially.

Bishop Basil: The word “Executive Committee” was not even mentioned. You didn’t hear those words at all during the whole Episcopal Assembly. What constitutes the members of the Executive Committee—there’s a lot of speculation and a lot of talk going on about it, but those words were not even mentioned at the Episcopal Assembly because it is so secondary. Its importance is so secondary, or even tertiary to the work of the assembly and its committees. Unlike what we Americans generally think of as an Executive Committee being just the officers, the chair, the vice-chairs, the secretary, and treasurer, that’s not what the Chambesy document defines as the Executive Committee. It’s that: it’s the officers, but then the heads of the Mother Churches representatives in this country. So that those who are not officers—for instance, Metropolitan Christopher is the senior hierarch of the Serbian Orthodox Church, he’s not an officer of the Episcopal Assembly, but as the senior hierarch of the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate, he would be a member of the Executive Committee. But it’s really just for consultation, no decisions will be made by the executive committee, everything has to be referred back to the Episcopal Assembly. That’s why I believe it wasn’t even discussed at this meeting at all.

I don’t want to say it’s not important because it did come from Chambesy so I assume it has some function...

Which brings up the issue that ACROD and the other EP jurisdictions, including UOCUSA, had a seat on SCOBA, do they have one on the Executive Committee? And if they do, why doesn't Met. Jonah? The enthronement of the successor to Bp. Nicholas will force an answer to this question, as he has to take up all the new duties, and will be seen doing so. It that means taking his place on the executive committe, it will be noticed (whereas Bp. Nicholas, predating the Executive Committee, was not). So to if one of Met. Jonah's suffragans is translated to ACROD and takes a seat on the executive committee.

Then there is the problem that Met. Sotirios of Toronto wants no part of ACOBNCA, and is taking Canada out of it (at least trying, so far he has just boycotted it), but ACROD has parishes in Canada as well as the US. Not many, but since Bishop Iliya of Philomelion has two Albanian parishes to earn him a seat on SCOBA, how many do you need? That issue hasn't been resolved. If the relations between ACROD and UOC-C are anything like the UGCC and the Vatican's Ruthenians, given the larger share of the Ukrainians of the Canadian Orthodox pie and the fraternal relations with the UOCUSA, that is another piece of the puzzle no one wants to put together.

As for Slovakia, it has a sympathy with the OCA: the EP denied its autocephaly for decades, interfered in its affairs, had to depend on support from the PoM, etc. Being also a minority faith in its country, the Church of CzLS (which recognizes the OCA) has a lot of ties to the OCA which a bishop from Slovakia might strengthen, which many would not like to see. Further it would strengthen the ties of ACROD to a "Mother Church" not the Phanar, something the Phanar doesn't want (one reason it won't recognize a UOC seperate from the PoM in Ukraine, to which UOCC and UOCUSA would attache themselves over Constantinople).

I don't know if the delay is intentional, with an eye to ACROD going down with the rest of PA and "solving" the problem that way (a final solution a bishop will stop), but circumstances do not favor speeding up a successor being in enthroned for many interests not the Carpatho-Russians.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Isa, that is the most convoluted post you've ever made. I can't make sense of it. Try again as if to be read by a person with little patience and with meager mental abilities, such as I.

Isa, my brother,

I have to agree with Aristokles. As conversant as I am with the ecclesial politics involved, you pretty much lost me except for your point that a Ukrainian bishop from the Old Country would be an unacceptable choice. (Have to say, my friend, that 'non-existent Ruthenians' - whatever point it is intended to convey - comes across as an unwarranted insult to the Carpatho-Rusyn faithful of ACROD.)

LOL. Sorry, I should have put that in quotation marks, as it was sarcasm: I've been defending the existence of Ruthenians on a number of threads lately against those who deny it. Which is why I think that a Ukrainian bishop would be unacceptable (a ("Great") Russian bishop would be unwise, and given the history of why ACROD isn't in the OCA (bishops confusing Russophilia with the desire to be Russified), perhaps also unacceptable). Unacceptable to the Ruthenian faithful, who do exist, and of whom I see no difference in opinion with the public opinion in Zakarpattia.

Major Archbishop Sviatoslav speaks of Bp. Milan of Mukacheve as if he is a member of the UGCC synod. He's there as an observer, a point that many Ruthenians do not see emphasized enough.

Much clearer, my friend

I probably should have picked up on the sarcasm - because, as others have observed, I've also never seen you badmouth or dismiss the Rusyns out-of-hand, as others often do. It would help if I hadn't read it at the crack of dawn or thereabouts.

Although it's a side note, you are right on track in noting the parallel involved in the situation vis-a-vis the UGCC Synod and the relationship of Bishop Milan to it. I've pointed his observer status to my UGCC brethren any number of times over the years. It's pretty clear that, the UGCC would like absorb his jurisdiction - which they can't do w/o Rome's blessing (I suppose one of those rare occasions on which one can be truly grateful for Rome's place in the game). Otoh, his presence as an observer is not something that I imagine he'd like to give up. It does have its benefits, if nothing else than to have a venue in which to converse with one's peers about common issues that beset all the Churches.

HB Melkite Patriarch Maximos V, of blessed memory, once told me that the rest of the Catholic and Orthodox worlds could not seem to understand or accept the fraternal and collegial relationships that exist among the 5 Antiochian Patriarchs. 'We are the brothers of one another. We must be. Where we live, to whom else do we have to turn? Who better understands the issues that our bishops, our priests, our faithful, face every day?'

Many years,

Neil

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Isa, that is the most convoluted post you've ever made. I can't make sense of it. Try again as if to be read by a person with little patience and with meager mental abilities, such as I.

Isa, my brother,

I have to agree with Aristokles. As conversant as I am with the ecclesial politics involved, you pretty much lost me except for your point that a Ukrainian bishop from the Old Country would be an unacceptable choice. (Have to say, my friend, that 'non-existent Ruthenians' - whatever point it is intended to convey - comes across as an unwarranted insult to the Carpatho-Rusyn faithful of ACROD.)

LOL. Sorry, I should have put that in quotation marks, as it was sarcasm: I've been defending the existence of Ruthenians on a number of threads lately against those who deny it. Which is why I think that a Ukrainian bishop would be unacceptable (a ("Great") Russian bishop would be unwise, and given the history of why ACROD isn't in the OCA (bishops confusing Russophilia with the desire to be Russified), perhaps also unacceptable). Unacceptable to the Ruthenian faithful, who do exist, and of whom I see no difference in opinion with the public opinion in Zakarpattia.

Major Archbishop Sviatoslav speaks of Bp. Milan of Mukacheve as if he is a member of the UGCC synod. He's there as an observer, a point that many Ruthenians do not see emphasized enough.

Much clearer, my friend

I probably should have picked up on the sarcasm - because, as others have observed, I've also never seen you badmouth or dismiss the Rusyns out-of-hand, as others often do. It would help if I hadn't read it at the crack of dawn or thereabouts.

Although it's a side note, you are right on track in noting the parallel involved in the situation vis-a-vis the UGCC Synod and the relationship of Bishop Milan to it. I've pointed his observer status to my UGCC brethren any number of times over the years. It's pretty clear that, the UGCC would like absorb his jurisdiction - which they can't do w/o Rome's blessing (I suppose one of those rare occasions on which one can be truly grateful for Rome's place in the game). Otoh, his presence as an observer is not something that I imagine he'd like to give up. It does have its benefits, if nothing else than to have a venue in which to converse with one's peers about common issues that beset all the Churches.

Nothing wrong about being neighborly, but good fences make good neighbors: sitting on their porch doesn't mean you want them to forclose on your house.

HB Melkite Patriarch Maximos V, of blessed memory, once told me that the rest of the Catholic and Orthodox worlds could not seem to understand or accept the fraternal and collegial relationships that exist among the 5 Antiochian Patriarchs. 'We are the brothers of one another. We must be. Where we live, to whom else do we have to turn? Who better understands the issues that our bishops, our priests, our faithful, face every day?

Part of it is we don't see any reason to get involved in Old Rome and New Rome's (and sometimes the Third Rome's) squabbles of whose on first. It also helps that the submission of the Melkite patriarch wasn't imposed: less bitter weeds sown yields no bitter fruit to eat.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Given the near absolute adherence to the PoM in Zakarpattia >95% in the furthest West region of West Ukraine, I don't see any difference on the other side of Uzhhorod.

I don't understand these statistics Ialmisry:Do you mean that 95% of the whole population belongs to the UOC-MP?or that 95% of the orthodox believers in Zakarpatia belong to the UOC-MP?

What is the basis of your statistics?

95% of the Orthodox population, which is at least half of the population.

And statistic, from any quarter, I've ever seen. The link above, for instance.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

All this time without a name or a plan surfacing, is amazing to me. Hasn't anyone heard what is the plan of the ACROD leadership for the naming of a new hierarch for their diocese? This is supposedly the most visited Orthodox Christian internet forum and there is no one who knows what is going on in terms of a permanent replacement for Metropolitan Nicholas of Blessed Memory?

Given the near absolute adherence to the PoM in Zakarpattia >95% in the furthest West region of West Ukraine, I don't see any difference on the other side of Uzhhorod.

I don't understand these statistics Ialmisry:Do you mean that 95% of the whole population belongs to the UOC-MP?or that 95% of the orthodox believers in Zakarpatia belong to the UOC-MP?

What is the basis of your statistics?

95% of the Orthodox population, which is at least half of the population.

And statistic, from any quarter, I've ever seen. The link above, for instance.

I doubt that statistic is accurate. The UAOC Church for example has a lot of parishes in the area.

I just came across this, corroborating bit of evidence that the area is unlike the rest of West UkraineI'm not talking about the relative merits or demerits of the two candidates, just to indicate on a sociological level that Zakarpattia sees that matter very differently from its nearest neighbors, and resembles more Eastern Ukraine, the stronghold of the UOC.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

All this time without a name or a plan surfacing, is amazing to me. Hasn't anyone heard what is the plan of the ACROD leadership for the naming of a new hierarch for their diocese? This is supposedly the most visited Orthodox Christian internet forum and there is no one who knows what is going on in terms of a permanent replacement for Metropolitan Nicholas of Blessed Memory?

A sobor is set for June, 2012. Presumably candidates will be presented at that time.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

All this time without a name or a plan surfacing, is amazing to me. Hasn't anyone heard what is the plan of the ACROD leadership for the naming of a new hierarch for their diocese? This is supposedly the most visited Orthodox Christian internet forum and there is no one who knows what is going on in terms of a permanent replacement for Metropolitan Nicholas of Blessed Memory?

A sobor is set for June, 2012. Presumably candidates will be presented at that time.

That is the triennial , regularly scheduled Diocesan Council/Sobor, as required by the Diocesan constitution. God willing, the issue of the vacant episcopacy will be resolved well before that date.

Given the near absolute adherence to the PoM in Zakarpattia >95% in the furthest West region of West Ukraine, I don't see any difference on the other side of Uzhhorod.

I don't understand these statistics Ialmisry:Do you mean that 95% of the whole population belongs to the UOC-MP?or that 95% of the orthodox believers in Zakarpatia belong to the UOC-MP?

What is the basis of your statistics?

95% of the Orthodox population, which is at least half of the population.

And statistic, from any quarter, I've ever seen. The link above, for instance.

I doubt that statistic is accurate. The UAOC Church for example has a lot of parishes in the area.

I just came across this, corroborating bit of evidence that the area is unlike the rest of West UkraineI'm not talking about the relative merits or demerits of the two candidates, just to indicate on a sociological level that Zakarpattia sees that matter very differently from its nearest neighbors, and resembles more Eastern Ukraine, the stronghold of the UOC.

With an understanding of history and sociology, both of which Isa is versed in, it is simply a demographic fact that in spite of the protestations of Ukrainian nationalists, the ethnic and religious composition of the region is far more diverse that is that of most western and central Ukraine. Under the Hapsburghs, Uzhorod/Ungvar was one of the great 'multi-cultural' centers of east central Europe. It always strikes me as funny, yes funny, that the same nationalists who proclaim the inviolability of the Ukrainian borders as cynically devised by the despised Russian communists have absolutely no problem with the western powers' sell-out of Transcarpathia and the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia.

All this time without a name or a plan surfacing, is amazing to me. Hasn't anyone heard what is the plan of the ACROD leadership for the naming of a new hierarch for their diocese? This is supposedly the most visited Orthodox Christian internet forum and there is no one who knows what is going on in terms of a permanent replacement for Metropolitan Nicholas of Blessed Memory?

A sobor is set for June, 2012. Presumably candidates will be presented at that time.

That is the triennial , regularly scheduled Diocesan Council/Sobor, as required by the Diocesan constitution. God willing, the issue of the vacant episcopacy will be resolved well before that date.

One would hope so!However my conjecture is founded on other data from a consistory member as related to me by a priest. Me? I'm just a rumor passer.

Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

ACROD is too disorganized as an entity to end this in the near future. One of 3 things will happen:

1) A Ukrainian will become bishop2) A Greek will become bishop3) Someone will become a "temporary" bishop.

-Nick

Pot: The kettle is black! Oh my!.......

And BTW, there is a 'temporary' bishop, i.e., the Locum Tenens, Archbishop Demetrios. I, and many others, refrain from letting our personal feelings or experiences with other jurisdictions and clergy color our remarks or observations. I have much I could say, but I was taught not to do so and I will not other than my opening observation.

ACROD is too disorganized as an entity to end this in the near future. One of 3 things will happen:

1) A Ukrainian will become bishop2) A Greek will become bishop3) Someone will become a "temporary" bishop.

-Nick

Pot: The kettle is black! Oh my!.......

And BTW, there is a 'temporary' bishop, i.e., the Locum Tenens, Archbishop Demetrios. I, and many others, refrain from letting our personal feelings or experiences with other jurisdictions and clergy color our remarks or observations. I have much I could say, but I was taught not to do so and I will not other than my opening observation.

I meant Temporary bishop as in ruling hierarch of the diocese until they find someone permanent, not as in a Locum Tenens arrangement. There was no malice intended in my post. I was merely sharing the truth of the situation. ACROD as a whole is not well organized and therefore will have problems finding a hierarch. If you think that I am being disingenuous you are free to prove to me the organization of ACROD. Of course it's tough to do when the position has been vacant this long with basically no action being taken. Hardly an example of good organization.

ACROD is too disorganized as an entity to end this in the near future. One of 3 things will happen:

1) A Ukrainian will become bishop2) A Greek will become bishop3) Someone will become a "temporary" bishop.

-Nick

Pot: The kettle is black! Oh my!.......

And BTW, there is a 'temporary' bishop, i.e., the Locum Tenens, Archbishop Demetrios. I, and many others, refrain from letting our personal feelings or experiences with other jurisdictions and clergy color our remarks or observations. I have much I could say, but I was taught not to do so and I will not other than my opening observation.

I meant Temporary bishop as in ruling hierarch of the diocese until they find someone permanent, not as in a Locum Tenens arrangement. There was no malice intended in my post. I was merely sharing the truth of the situation. ACROD as a whole is not well organized and therefore will have problems finding a hierarch. If you think that I am being disingenuous you are free to prove to me the organization of ACROD. Of course it's tough to do when the position has been vacant this long with basically no action being taken. Hardly an example of good organization.

-Nick

I appreciate that you meant no malice.

I merely was alluding to the reality that in many ways the ACROD vacancy dilemma mirrors that of our divided Orthodox house in the Americas as a whole. The difficulties of finding capable and wise Bishops from 'within' one jurisdiction or another are well known to us all. For that matter even finding them within our own continent becomes problematic for many!

For the record though, for an organization with is 'not well organized', the history of then ACROD bears a different witness. From its founding in 1938 through the current 'inter-regnum', succession was never a problem. A successor was found for the late Metropolitan Orestes Chornock in 1966 some years prior to his becoming incapable of discharging the duties of his office in the late 1960's. That Bishop (+John) died suddenly in dramatic fashion as a young man at the end of a banquet in his early 50's. In spite of that, the ACROD immediately had two viable candidates to replace him and that transition occurred within a few months of his sudden death. (It should be noted that one of those candidates was at the time a Bishop in a sister-jurisdiction and the other, a young man at the time, is now an OCA bishop.)

Perhaps the dearth of young men becoming either monastic priests or celibate pastors over the past generation has contributed to the problems of 'bishop-search' across the Orthodox Americas!

Getting back to your three main points, as to a 'Ukrainian' becoming bishop, I suppose that is possible, particularly if one gets into the entire Rusyn/Ukrainian ethnology. (One could argue, for example, that several of the UOC bishops in the US and Canada are at least in part, Rusyn.....One could make the same argument about the last three men to be chosen Bishop in the OCA for that matter.....not to mention the late Archbishop Job, of thrice blessed memory...) As to a Greek, I think such a proposal would not be accepted by the still independent minded body of parishes, although it would be far less of a problem than it would have been a generation ago. As to a 'temporary bishop', I am not sure what you mean by that other than the appointment of a different LT.

ACROD is too disorganized as an entity to end this in the near future. One of 3 things will happen:

1) A Ukrainian will become bishop2) A Greek will become bishop3) Someone will become a "temporary" bishop.

-Nick

Pot: The kettle is black! Oh my!.......

And BTW, there is a 'temporary' bishop, i.e., the Locum Tenens, Archbishop Demetrios. I, and many others, refrain from letting our personal feelings or experiences with other jurisdictions and clergy color our remarks or observations. I have much I could say, but I was taught not to do so and I will not other than my opening observation.

I meant Temporary bishop as in ruling hierarch of the diocese until they find someone permanent, not as in a Locum Tenens arrangement. There was no malice intended in my post. I was merely sharing the truth of the situation. ACROD as a whole is not well organized and therefore will have problems finding a hierarch. If you think that I am being disingenuous you are free to prove to me the organization of ACROD. Of course it's tough to do when the position has been vacant this long with basically no action being taken. Hardly an example of good organization.

-Nick

I appreciate that you meant no malice.

I merely was alluding to the reality that in many ways the ACROD vacancy dilemma mirrors that of our divided Orthodox house in the Americas as a whole. The difficulties of finding capable and wise Bishops from 'within' one jurisdiction or another are well known to us all. For that matter even finding them within our own continent becomes problematic for many!

For the record though, for an organization with is 'not well organized', the history of then ACROD bears a different witness. From its founding in 1938 through the current 'inter-regnum', succession was never a problem. A successor was found for the late Metropolitan Orestes Chornock in 1966 some years prior to his becoming incapable of discharging the duties of his office in the late 1960's. That Bishop (+John) died suddenly in dramatic fashion as a young man at the end of a banquet in his early 50's. In spite of that, the ACROD immediately had two viable candidates to replace him and that transition occurred within a few months of his sudden death. (It should be noted that one of those candidates was at the time a Bishop in a sister-jurisdiction and the other, a young man at the time, is now an OCA bishop.)

Perhaps the dearth of young men becoming either monastic priests or celibate pastors over the past generation has contributed to the problems of 'bishop-search' across the Orthodox Americas!

Getting back to your three main points, as to a 'Ukrainian' becoming bishop, I suppose that is possible, particularly if one gets into the entire Rusyn/Ukrainian ethnology. (One could argue, for example, that several of the UOC bishops in the US and Canada are at least in part, Rusyn.....One could make the same argument about the last three men to be chosen Bishop in the OCA for that matter.....not to mention the late Archbishop Job, of thrice blessed memory...) As to a Greek, I think such a proposal would not be accepted by the still independent minded body of parishes, although it would be far less of a problem than it would have been a generation ago. As to a 'temporary bishop', I am not sure what you mean by that other than the appointment of a different LT.

I appreciate your response. In terms of a temporary bishop, something like a holding place until a permanent bishop can be found. For example, on the priest level, Fr. Michael Psenechnuk was assigned as the pastor of St. Michael's in Niles, IL. between the passing of Fr. Charles Panchisin and Fr. Mark Leasure (currently of Taylor). Fr. Michael had all the duties of being the pastor and was officially referred to as the pastor of the church, but there was explicit understanding that he was not going to be there long term. In the end I believe he was there a little over a year before Fr. Mark was appointed. I guess that's the best example I can give of what I was trying to imply.

ACROD is too disorganized as an entity to end this in the near future. One of 3 things will happen:

1) A Ukrainian will become bishop2) A Greek will become bishop3) Someone will become a "temporary" bishop.

-Nick

Pot: The kettle is black! Oh my!.......

And BTW, there is a 'temporary' bishop, i.e., the Locum Tenens, Archbishop Demetrios. I, and many others, refrain from letting our personal feelings or experiences with other jurisdictions and clergy color our remarks or observations. I have much I could say, but I was taught not to do so and I will not other than my opening observation.

I meant Temporary bishop as in ruling hierarch of the diocese until they find someone permanent, not as in a Locum Tenens arrangement. There was no malice intended in my post. I was merely sharing the truth of the situation. ACROD as a whole is not well organized and therefore will have problems finding a hierarch. If you think that I am being disingenuous you are free to prove to me the organization of ACROD. Of course it's tough to do when the position has been vacant this long with basically no action being taken. Hardly an example of good organization.

-Nick

I appreciate that you meant no malice.

I merely was alluding to the reality that in many ways the ACROD vacancy dilemma mirrors that of our divided Orthodox house in the Americas as a whole. The difficulties of finding capable and wise Bishops from 'within' one jurisdiction or another are well known to us all. For that matter even finding them within our own continent becomes problematic for many!

For the record though, for an organization with is 'not well organized', the history of then ACROD bears a different witness. From its founding in 1938 through the current 'inter-regnum', succession was never a problem. A successor was found for the late Metropolitan Orestes Chornock in 1966 some years prior to his becoming incapable of discharging the duties of his office in the late 1960's. That Bishop (+John) died suddenly in dramatic fashion as a young man at the end of a banquet in his early 50's. In spite of that, the ACROD immediately had two viable candidates to replace him and that transition occurred within a few months of his sudden death. (It should be noted that one of those candidates was at the time a Bishop in a sister-jurisdiction and the other, a young man at the time, is now an OCA bishop.)

Perhaps the dearth of young men becoming either monastic priests or celibate pastors over the past generation has contributed to the problems of 'bishop-search' across the Orthodox Americas!

Getting back to your three main points, as to a 'Ukrainian' becoming bishop, I suppose that is possible, particularly if one gets into the entire Rusyn/Ukrainian ethnology. (One could argue, for example, that several of the UOC bishops in the US and Canada are at least in part, Rusyn.....One could make the same argument about the last three men to be chosen Bishop in the OCA for that matter.....not to mention the late Archbishop Job, of thrice blessed memory...) As to a Greek, I think such a proposal would not be accepted by the still independent minded body of parishes, although it would be far less of a problem than it would have been a generation ago. As to a 'temporary bishop', I am not sure what you mean by that other than the appointment of a different LT.

I appreciate your response. In terms of a temporary bishop, something like a holding place until a permanent bishop can be found. For example, on the priest level, Fr. Michael Psenechnuk was assigned as the pastor of St. Michael's in Niles, IL. between the passing of Fr. Charles Panchisin and Fr. Mark Leasure (currently of Taylor). Fr. Michael had all the duties of being the pastor and was officially referred to as the pastor of the church, but there was explicit understanding that he was not going to be there long term. In the end I believe he was there a little over a year before Fr. Mark was appointed. I guess that's the best example I can give of what I was trying to imply.

-Nick

Do I sense that you suspect such an arrangement for one of the existing UOC-USA or perhaps UOC-Canada bishops being 'directed' by the EP is being contemplated? Interesting.....(as Spock would note....)

I did want to add that as to a priest from GOA being considered, any such hypothetical candidate would have to NOT be a Hellenist at heart and would have to possess some sense of Slavic propriety in order to succeed. I am not sure such a person exists!

ACROD is too disorganized as an entity to end this in the near future. One of 3 things will happen:

1) A Ukrainian will become bishop2) A Greek will become bishop3) Someone will become a "temporary" bishop.

-Nick

Pot: The kettle is black! Oh my!.......

And BTW, there is a 'temporary' bishop, i.e., the Locum Tenens, Archbishop Demetrios. I, and many others, refrain from letting our personal feelings or experiences with other jurisdictions and clergy color our remarks or observations. I have much I could say, but I was taught not to do so and I will not other than my opening observation.

I meant Temporary bishop as in ruling hierarch of the diocese until they find someone permanent, not as in a Locum Tenens arrangement. There was no malice intended in my post. I was merely sharing the truth of the situation. ACROD as a whole is not well organized and therefore will have problems finding a hierarch. If you think that I am being disingenuous you are free to prove to me the organization of ACROD. Of course it's tough to do when the position has been vacant this long with basically no action being taken. Hardly an example of good organization.

-Nick

I appreciate that you meant no malice.

I merely was alluding to the reality that in many ways the ACROD vacancy dilemma mirrors that of our divided Orthodox house in the Americas as a whole. The difficulties of finding capable and wise Bishops from 'within' one jurisdiction or another are well known to us all. For that matter even finding them within our own continent becomes problematic for many!

For the record though, for an organization with is 'not well organized', the history of then ACROD bears a different witness. From its founding in 1938 through the current 'inter-regnum', succession was never a problem. A successor was found for the late Metropolitan Orestes Chornock in 1966 some years prior to his becoming incapable of discharging the duties of his office in the late 1960's. That Bishop (+John) died suddenly in dramatic fashion as a young man at the end of a banquet in his early 50's. In spite of that, the ACROD immediately had two viable candidates to replace him and that transition occurred within a few months of his sudden death. (It should be noted that one of those candidates was at the time a Bishop in a sister-jurisdiction and the other, a young man at the time, is now an OCA bishop.)

Perhaps the dearth of young men becoming either monastic priests or celibate pastors over the past generation has contributed to the problems of 'bishop-search' across the Orthodox Americas!

Getting back to your three main points, as to a 'Ukrainian' becoming bishop, I suppose that is possible, particularly if one gets into the entire Rusyn/Ukrainian ethnology. (One could argue, for example, that several of the UOC bishops in the US and Canada are at least in part, Rusyn.....One could make the same argument about the last three men to be chosen Bishop in the OCA for that matter.....not to mention the late Archbishop Job, of thrice blessed memory...) As to a Greek, I think such a proposal would not be accepted by the still independent minded body of parishes, although it would be far less of a problem than it would have been a generation ago. As to a 'temporary bishop', I am not sure what you mean by that other than the appointment of a different LT.

I appreciate your response. In terms of a temporary bishop, something like a holding place until a permanent bishop can be found. For example, on the priest level, Fr. Michael Psenechnuk was assigned as the pastor of St. Michael's in Niles, IL. between the passing of Fr. Charles Panchisin and Fr. Mark Leasure (currently of Taylor). Fr. Michael had all the duties of being the pastor and was officially referred to as the pastor of the church, but there was explicit understanding that he was not going to be there long term. In the end I believe he was there a little over a year before Fr. Mark was appointed. I guess that's the best example I can give of what I was trying to imply.

-Nick

Do I sense that you suspect such an arrangement for one of the existing UOC-USA or perhaps UOC-Canada bishops being 'directed' by the EP is being contemplated? Interesting.....(as Spock would note....)

I did want to add that as to a priest from GOA being considered, any such hypothetical candidate would have to NOT be a Hellenist at heart and would have to possess some sense of Slavic propriety in order to succeed. I am not sure such a person exists!

Someone made a bad joke the other day that I was the perfect candidate for ACROD because of my ethnic background and the historical significance of my family in the founding of ACORD and the fact that I am not married. I was not amused.

Someone made a bad joke the other day that I was the perfect candidate for ACROD because of my ethnic background and the historical significance of my family in the founding of ACORD and the fact that I am not married. I was not amused.

Actually the same bad joke was going around 'warning' single men over thirty five not to answer the phone.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

All I want to know is what a Major Archbishop is. And, is there a "minor" archbishop?

Major Archbishop is a title used in the Eastern Catholic Churches when the Pope does not want to call a Primate of one of the Eastern Catholic Churches a Patriarch.

how does that work in their hierarchical system? does that major archbishop have the same jurisdictional authority as a patriarch? why not just give the title of patriarch out? political reasons?

The historical reason is that the major archbishop heads a schism from an Orthodox local Church which wasn't autocephalous or a patriarchate at the time of the schism. The present standoff between Moscow, the Vatican and L'viv (which has moved itself to Kiev and decarled itself a patriarchate) shows how much the Vatican doesn't like to completely burn its bridges.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

does that major archbishop have the same jurisdictional authority as a patriarch?

Yes.

Except that the major archbishop's election first has to be approved by the Vatican, rather than just notify the Vatican of the result as with their patriarchs. Also, if he is named a cardinal, his is a cardinal priest, while a patriarch is a cardinal bishop.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I didn't have any luck for the Mukachevo-Uzhhorod Eparchy either, but the overview of the Khust-Vynohradiv Eparchy (http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/76183.html) in eastern Transcarpathia lists 213 parishes and 16 monasteries.

Logged

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Do I sense that you suspect such an arrangement for one of the existing UOC-USA or perhaps UOC-Canada bishops being 'directed' by the EP is being contemplated? Interesting.....(as Spock would note....)

I did want to add that as to a priest from GOA being considered, any such hypothetical candidate would have to NOT be a Hellenist at heart and would have to possess some sense of Slavic propriety in order to succeed. I am not sure such a person exists!

« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 04:45:23 PM by podkarpatska »

ACROD would be welcome to take Bishop Andrij of Toronto. He has been moved around so much and he doesn't fit in.