As I mentioned in another thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430006-Looking-for-a-Dwarven-Stalwart-Defender-build), I've been leveling a pure dwarven fighter as a classic Dwarven Defender: i.e., dwarven axe + shield, heavy armor, lots of HPs, the whole shebang. Figures I would try to play a S&B tank right after Turbine turned monk "tanks" back into the "I WIN!" button again. :rolleyes: The goal is not so much "Can I make a S&B tank as good as a pajama build?" (SPOILER: no, I can't); but rather "What's the best 'classic' S&B fighter build I can come up with?" This thread will contain the build I've been using, plus maybe a couple of possible variants, and hopefully the pros & cons of multiclassing instead.

Basically, I'm trying to play the class the way I think Turbine intends for it to be played; before going into why that's a bad idea in the current game. :p

I wanted to take advantage of dwarf racial bonuses: in particular Dwarf Fortress (+dmg while S&B), tactics DCs, and saves vs spells. The idea was to have a mix of DPS, tactics, survivability, and threat amp.

So, onto the build!

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 23

Epic Destiny: for DPS, the primary ED will be Legendary Dreadnought - Master Blitz, Headman's Chop, Devastating Critical, and Anvil of Thunder are all good. For Twists, I'd want Legendary Shield Mastery ASAP; not sure what to do for the rest.

Drawbacks: the biggest ones are the same as pure fighters have always had, namely zero self-sufficiency and low Reflex & Will saves. Defensive stance provides +3 to saves and dwarven spell defense adds another +4 as configured; but I'll still be relying on gear and friendly healers to keep me alive. :o

unbongwah

11-08-2013, 10:46 AM

For comparison, here's a build which mostly ditches the tactics side of things (tho it keeps CE+Imp Trip) as well as Mobility & IC:Blunt to focus more on DPS/doublestrike:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 23

The drawback to this approach (apart from lower DCs & the loss of two tactics feats) is there's barely any APs left for the dwarf tree; ideally I'd want to max out Dwarf Fortress as well for +7% dmg. If anyone can tell me how to add another 15 APs to my char, I'll get right on that...

Multiclassing: the obvious splash to take is pally 2; it costs you a feat and the SD capstone (which is not so great, TBH), but you gain a potentially huge bonus to saves. In epic levels, if you Twist in Bane of Undeath to grant Turn Undead, you can add Divine Might; but that costs 11 APs to max out in KotC tree. If you want to do that, I'd start STR 16 CHA 12 and change alignment to Lawful Good.

So maybe something like this:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 23

I also added Force of Personality: I like the idea of being able to ignore WIS and still have decent Will saves, even though it's arguably the least important save; most Will-based spells can be blocked w/gear or buffs (e.g., Freedom of Movement protects against Hold). One advantage to dropping SD capstone is I freed enough APs to max out Dwarf Fortress & saves bonuses. This configuration is w/out Divine Might, though; I'll need to free 11 APs to add it in if/when BoU is Twisted in.

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 23

The +5 STR tome is necessary to hit STR 23 for Overwhelming Crit; without it, the STR needs on this build are more modest (base 17 for ITHF/GTHF), but you also take a DPS hit.

unbongwah

11-08-2013, 10:47 AM

Reserved for future use (x2)

MagicBlade

11-08-2013, 11:59 AM

Interesting builds, although might I ask exactly how well the first 1 is? As a pure fighter, for tanking both dungeon quests and raids (with the right gear)..

EDIT: Also, why the Imp Crit Bludgeoning? Is there any other feat that'd work better?

unbongwah

11-08-2013, 02:08 PM

IC:Blunt is a placeholder for Shield Deflection, which doesn't appear to be in the current builder.

I haven't done any "real" tanking with this build yet; she's currently only lvl 14 and running in a static duo with a RL friend, who's playing a cleric.

Teh_Troll

11-08-2013, 02:27 PM

This is a darned good attempt at shining a tuhrd.

MagicBlade

11-08-2013, 02:37 PM

IC:Blunt is a placeholder for Shield Deflection, which doesn't appear to be in the current builder.

I haven't done any "real" tanking with this build yet; she's currently only lvl 14 and running in a static duo with a RL friend, who's playing a cleric.

Well, it's the only build I've seen that's actually in detail after the enhancement update, so I'll go with it.. and if I decide I don't like it, well... I have a LR+20 I can use and change classes... or attempt and stick it out until 20 then TR for something better...

Unbongwah - it's not part of the same topic, but might you know what good classes go with Drow?

unbongwah

11-08-2013, 03:01 PM

This is a darned good attempt at shining a tuhrd.
Errr, thanks, I guess? File that one under "damning with faint praise"...

Unbongwah - it's not part of the same topic, but might you know what good classes go with Drow?
Wizard or sorcerer are obvious choices, esp. if you don't have Warforged unlocked; +4 INT or CHA is good for either, naturally, and now that skill pts matter to casters, +2 INT on a sorc ain't so bad. +INT/DEX is also good for an INT-based Assassin, though obviously the -2 CON makes a squishy class even squishier. I still think drow are a good choice for a first-life TWF pally, esp. if you don't have 32-pt builds unlocked yet; now whether pallies are a good class in the first place is another matter entirely.

But my favorite drow build is probably still my first one: a DEX-based TWF rogue / bard. She's gimpy as hell, although U19 made DEX builds slightly less gimpy; but she's one of my oldest chars, so I still have a soft spot for her. :)

Ralmeth

11-08-2013, 03:31 PM

Your build looks interesting, but the one thing you seem to really be missing is some self healing. A 2 Paladin splash seems to primarily get you a bonus to saves, unless you want to spend the points on Divine Might. What if you went with a 1 Cleric / 1 Rogue splash? Rogue would be to get you UMD for easy heal scrolling, and Cleric to get you access to cure spells while leveling up, an extra 75% healing to your heal scrolls, 3 APs for divine might which you power with your spell points and pots, and the ability to pick up empower healing for cacoon in epic levels? Just a thought.

MagicBlade

11-08-2013, 03:52 PM

Errr, thanks, I guess? File that one under "damning with faint praise"...

Wizard or sorcerer are obvious choices, esp. if you don't have Warforged unlocked; +4 INT or CHA is good for either, naturally, and now that skill pts matter to casters, +2 INT on a sorc ain't so bad. +INT/DEX is also good for an INT-based Assassin, though obviously the -2 CON makes a squishy class even squishier. I still think drow are a good choice for a first-life TWF pally, esp. if you don't have 32-pt builds unlocked yet; now whether pallies are a good class in the first place is another matter entirely.

But my favorite drow build is probably still my first one: a DEX-based TWF rogue / bard. She's gimpy as hell, although U19 made DEX builds slightly less gimpy; but she's one of my oldest chars, so I still have a soft spot for her. :)

Reason why I was asking that is because well for 1, Drow's racial enhancements lean more towards a twf rapier/ssword paladin or rogue.. or a ninja spy monk...

Currently I have a lvl 15 Palemaster, but I never play on her, atleast never did back before I quit... while I love spellcasters, the wizards of DDO aren't that great for me... seriously.. why even bother giving the arcane enhancements, whenever if you go with it for nukes, your outa sp in 2 seconds..mages aren't like that.. while they burn through sp...i've never seen a spellcaster burn through it more than wizards... even Palemasters burn through it..

Anyways, was asking because I'm trying to find a good alternate class I might can LR her into, to finish out the last 5 lvls and then TR.. prefer a ranged dps though, and so far, I've yet to see any really good ranged dps builds involving the drow...

Vellrad

11-08-2013, 03:56 PM

Have you considered the immortal OC feat?

Also, if you have much too much feats, take sap and tell us how well it works ;)

Your build looks interesting, but the one thing you seem to really be missing is some self healing. A 2 Paladin splash seems to primarily get you a bonus to saves, unless you want to spend the points on Divine Might. What if you went with a 1 Cleric / 1 Rogue splash? Rogue would be to get you UMD for easy heal scrolling, and Cleric to get you access to cure spells while leveling up, an extra 75% healing to your heal scrolls, 3 APs for divine might which you power with your spell points and pots, and the ability to pick up empower healing for cacoon in epic levels? Just a thought.

Hey, this is basically my pure Fighter just Dwarven instead of Human :D

The unfortunate thing about going pure Fighter is that there just aren't enough AP's to get the Kensai capstone, Block & Cut and Racial enhancements. You have to drop one to get the others :(

Personally, I decided to go without racial (except for 3 points for the action boost + 10% heal amp) and get the +46% doublestrike. If I were you that's what I would do as well. It's not that Dwarven Fortress isn't great, it's that the enhancements required to reach it are detrimental or pretty bad.
- Child of the Mountain: Some extra hp (awesome) More fort (good) Losing more reflex (terrible)
- Stand like Stone: 20 seconds of solid tankiness at the cost movement speed then a 3 minute CD :(

I like the Dwarf racial tree but unless you're going for AC I don't think it's worth giving up 20ish% doublestrike and all the other bonuses that either Kensai or StD provide.

On the plus side, you'll be tough as nails :D When I last did the math I got (fully geared): 1000ish hp (you'll have more), 72% total physical damage reduction and around 1300 dps (You'll have a little less - Which is a little low but nothing to scoff at).

Plus thanks to Wall of Wood you can have 30% healing amp whenever you need it. :)

unbongwah

11-08-2013, 09:30 PM

Your build looks interesting, but the one thing you seem to really be missing is some self healing.
The goal was to see what I could do with a pure S&B ftr under U19; I have plenty of other builds for abusing MCing mechanics. ;) The pally-splashed version is a bit of a cheat in that respect, but I thought I should throw it out there for anyone who wants something which addresses low saves. Long-term I'd like to put together some post-U19 pure-build threads I can point newbies to; I'm not ambitious enough to completely redo tihocan's thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/232660-Revisiting-paths-Builds-for-new-players), but I figure someone should get the ball rolling. :)

Plus thanks to Wall of Wood you can have 30% healing amp whenever you need it. :)
PDK gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Purple_Dragon_Gauntlets) also provide 30% heal amp (http://ddowiki.com/page/Healing_Amplification#Item_bonus); you could use the WoW w/20% heal amp and find something w/10% amp to round it out. Random lootgen bracers w/Convalescent used to be fairly common, I thought, but I haven't seen them drop in a while.

Arkadios

11-08-2013, 09:57 PM

... Random lootgen bracers w/Convalescent used to be fairly common, I thought, but I haven't seen them drop in a while.

They were removed from the loot tables, I assume with u19.

lugoman

11-08-2013, 11:27 PM

Dwarf Fortress is good, but way to expensive considering you have to get Child of the Mountain and Stand Like Stone, which arent very good imo.

unbongwah

11-09-2013, 07:56 AM

Dwarf Fortress is good, but way to expensive considering you have to get Child of the Mountain and Stand Like Stone, which arent very good imo.
That was my initial thought, too, but it's just about the only S&B-specific racial DPS bonus out there, so I figured I would give it a shot. And 8 APs for +5% dmg isn't so bad; I can goose it to +7%, but not sure if I will.

This is largely an experiment to see if Turbine really "broke" S&B fighters, or it's still possible to make one viable, once you set aside the minmaxing perspective. I still have my LR +20, so worst-case scenario I give up and LR into a battlecleric or something... :rolleyes:

unbongwah

11-09-2013, 07:57 AM

They were removed from the loot tables, I assume with u19.
Had a feeling that was the case. :( Wish I'd stocked up on them over the summer!

With those Saves, won't he just be held and enfeebled all the time by casters ?

BoBoDaClown

12-15-2013, 01:11 PM

With those Saves, won't he just be held and enfeebled all the time by casters ?

a) Those aren't his endpoint saves.
b) Held isn't a problem in later levels because of FOM, and isn't too much of a problem in earlier levels because of AC/PRR etc
c) I don't think Ray of Enfeeblement gives a save?

That said - I would be interested in the saves on this build - obviously really important in EE.

Do you think you can get meaningful Reflex saves? You get +3 from Dwarven Runes?

FestusHood

12-15-2013, 01:38 PM

Probably a newb question, but:

If you are fighting with Dwarven Axes and S&B, why do you take all the Two Handed Fighting Feats ?

Dwarven axes and Bastard swords give glancing blow damage when used alone or with a shield. NOT when fighting with two weapons though.

unbongwah

12-15-2013, 03:57 PM

If you are fighting with Dwarven Axes and S&B, why do you take all the Two Handed Fighting Feats ?

Dwarven axes and Bastard swords give glancing blow damage when used alone or with a shield. NOT when fighting with two weapons though.
What Festus said. :) It'll also boost greataxe dmg, if/when I use them.

With those Saves, won't he just be held and enfeebled all the time by casters ?
Prot. from Evil protects against Command; FoM protects against Web & Hold spells. Ray of Enfeeblement & Otto's Irresistable are issues, though, because they have no DC check, only Spell Pen checks. My first draft of this build had Warding DM which added Spell Resistance as an SLA; I dropped it due to lack of APs, but it's not hard to squeeze it back in (see this build variant (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432376-Celcia-%E2%80%93-The-quot-Impossible%E2%80%9D-Dream?p=5199594&viewfull=1#post5199594)).

Otherwise, though, the trick to dealing with casters is taking them out before they take you out, which is part of why I focused on tactics DCs. Nothing ruins a mage's day quite like being stunned or flat on the ground while an angry midget beats on them. ;)

That said - I would be interested in the saves on this build - obviously really important in EE.

Do you think you can get meaningful Reflex saves? You get +3 from Dwarven Runes?
Dwarven Runes is +3 to saves from spells (total of +5 inc. base racial bonus); however Child of the Mountain is up to +3 Fort -3 Reflex, so Reflex saves are definitely very much a concern. Truth be told, I expect a pally splash like my 2nd post is far better than staying pure, for exactly that reason. My Kundarak Wall has lower AC & PRR and probably lower DPS (Dwarf Fortress only works w/full plate), but much better survivability in all other respects: i.e., Evasion, higher saves, Unyielding Sovereignty for emergencies, Emp Heal + Rejuv Cocoon someday, etc.

However as I said before, this build is largely a test / experiment to see how far I can push a pure ftr these days, not a sincere effort to make an EE-worthy tank. If nothing else, I don't have the time & patience for serious gear farming. :o

Anyway, I just hit lvl 20 last night; farmed up my PDK set to start. As I said, I've just been duoing with a friend (light DiDi-specced cleric); haven't done any serious gearing up or even run any raids yet. We Elite-streaked to lvl 12 or so, then Hard-streaked the rest of the way; nothing to brag about, but not too bad for a pair of first-lives without any twink gear to start or access to ship buffs.

My biggest complaint about Last Stand (SD capstone) is the +100% max HPs aren't autogranted to you. So it's like you equipped a False Life +1,000 item; you've got this big empty HP bar to start. And what healer (apart from a hireling) is gonna want to fill that bar with one or more Heals, only to see them disappear again when LS wears off? Still, at least it's on a separate timer from other action boosts and stacks with any of them, AFAICT.

pappo

12-16-2013, 09:48 AM

Dwarven axes and Bastard swords give glancing blow damage when used alone or with a shield. NOT when fighting with two weapons though.

I didn't ask about Two weapon , I asked about Two Handed feats on a S&B build.

pappo

12-16-2013, 09:53 AM

What Festus said. :) It'll also boost greataxe dmg, if/when I use them.

Ok, thanks unbongwa. That is what I was asking.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I leveled this toon to 19 last night. I am having fun with it but my AC is only 57 with Combat Expertise turned on. I have a level 11 Human Paladin with a 76 AC in Defender.
I guess I thought a Defender would be up in the 70/80's by now so he could Intimidate and Turtle in Raids and Epics.

Are there anymore AC increases coming and what will I expect to see for max AC ?

Thanks for the build.

unbongwah

12-16-2013, 10:26 AM

I didn't bother investing in AC, largely because it feels like a losing proposition at higher levels. Instead, I focus on a mix of DPS, tactics DCs, threat amp, PRR, and a bit of Dodge & saves bonuses for good measure.

pappo

12-16-2013, 12:10 PM

I didn't bother investing in AC, largely because it feels like a losing proposition at higher levels. Instead, I focus on a mix of DPS, tactics DCs, threat amp, PRR, and a bit of Dodge & saves bonuses for good measure.

So you think this toon will survive a tank with Harry ?

Propane

12-16-2013, 05:41 PM

I have been running a similar tactical Tanks build - 1st life level 27 now - it is a lot of fun - does well in EH - I haven't tried EE much (yet).

I whent for the Epic White Dragaon Scale later on - there are nice bracers in the Wheloon quests as well. (Guardian's Bracers & Prisoner's Manacles )

I have the fully upgraded spare hand belt - I may add the Cloak o Bear later (extra DC and stacking threat with

Crann

12-17-2013, 07:20 PM

I didn't ask about Two weapon , I asked about Two Handed feats on a S&B build.
Bastard Sword/Dorf axes only proc glancing blows with the THF feats.

xberto

01-08-2014, 04:05 PM

I'm thinking about going pure Con based Dwarven fighter. I've been huge fan of tactics but decide to drop completely because of DCs, I've got +5 Str tome so I worked in OC. Dumped Wis and Cha and put some extra points in INT so I can get good skill levels of intimidate, heal, UMD, and jump.

I kept pure fighter for the doublestrike. Hopefully Spell resist, DR, and other enhancements can offset the poor saves.

I also omitted Weapon Focus and Specialize. I'm just not sure i need to go that far into Kensei line for 2 feat

The Weapon Finesse feat at lvl 16 is just a place mat for Shield Deflect (not in the planner)

Which do you commit. a White or Black Dragon helm, to this kind of build?

Think this turd is shiny enough?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 19
+5 Tome of Constitution used at level 19

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 23

You can swap Imp Trip & Imp Sunder for Spring Atk & Whirlwind, if you prefer.

xberto

01-08-2014, 06:21 PM

You only get the doublestrike capstone if you spend 41 APs in Kensei; ah yes of course. I knew that :). I think your 18/2 is better than pure fighter now and switching out the Trip/sunder for Spring/WW would work well for the playsyle im looking for. All good advise thx. My position however is I'm kind of in "future proofing" mode right now, as I'm getting real sick of TRing. I have 7 characters with at least 1 past life and as the game gets closer to "end game" it becomes increasingly difficult to keep them all viable and fun to play. If I'm going to build a "tank", ready for what the future might bring, I think pure dwarven fighter is probably the way to go. If i need to optimize, I can likely do it with just an epic TR. Hopefully I wont TR him until some Dwarven Iconic is released.

unbongwah

01-09-2014, 09:43 AM

As mentioned before, the main problem with pure ftrs is the same as it's always been: namely lack of self-healing / self-sufficiency and low Reflex & Will saves. There are ways around both problems thru gear & EDs; but a pally splash helps a lot with the saves (and possibly the self-healing). So far I'm underwhelmed by the SD capstone (although I haven't spent much time w/it yet) and shooting for the Kensei capstone stretches your APs pretty thin.

the_one_dwarfforged

01-14-2014, 10:26 AM

tl;dr

first off i have to say from what i saw there was a lot of praise for just posting a pure dwarf fighter snb build which has to be one of the oldest and most basic ever, just think its funny.

i have a character like this which im not playing much but my thoughts for doing it were because its old school and it would just be for raid tanking, which generally means at least one healer in the group. on that note i saw you had listed the permahaste feat, i think it is 100% a complete waste because 1) there are haste pots and clickies, 2) if your intended use of the character is like mine there will probably be a caster around to haste you, and 3) i would wear black dscale because white dscale is pointless because you will already be using a shield, and the black will help your dps a bunch. so personally id rather go with the 10 prr feat or if that doesnt float your boat (which seems to be the case for most people, love prr myself) then the speech feat for better intim at least. if you couldnt drink a haste pot i could see a case being made for the feat, but you can, so no. also i havent gotten quite this far on my dwarf but i am thinking that more of a snb kensei will be the way to go because all the toon (mine anyway) will be for holding aggro in tank n spank situations and more dps helps and after a certain point in stalwart you can buff your hate gen anymore so whats the point? as long as you are mitigating enough damage and have enough heal amp that the healer doesnt throw a tantrum and demand your loot because he is the best one ever because he is the healer and healers are winners, i say mission accomplished. i think people forget this is at least based on a *role* playing game which would imply teamwork = victory. i think there should be a new genre called single player where you byoh everywhere all the time and dont play with other people and ddo could sort of be the forerunner of that.

also some time after i made the character i decided while dwarf fighter was cool it was a bad idea and i shouldve gone with human pally for just a basic tank, better saves, nightmare, more cha = more intim, more hate gen because of the clicky and because i would have gone human and pally could get a lot more heal amp more easily. and more prr. and not short.

Panzermeyer

02-11-2014, 03:59 PM

PDK gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Purple_Dragon_Gauntlets) also provide 30% heal amp (http://ddowiki.com/page/Healing_Amplification#Item_bonus); you could use the WoW w/20% heal amp and find something w/10% amp to round it out. Random lootgen bracers w/Convalescent used to be fairly common, I thought, but I haven't seen them drop in a while.

How does healing amp stack?

Would all 3 of these stack on each other? or does it just go for the greatest one?

unbongwah

02-11-2014, 05:42 PM

How does healing amp stack?
If you click the wiki link I helpfully provided and which you quoted, you'll see: "Items with the same level do not stack. Items with various levels of healing amplification stack. The bonuses are multiplied, for a total of 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 = 1.716. (71.6% total amplification)"

Nodoze

03-31-2014, 02:50 PM

How do you like this build vs your Kundarak Wall?

Also curious if you are considering trying a Con version as it would be cool to actually see one capped.

unbongwah

03-31-2014, 03:57 PM

I recently level-capped my Dwarven Defender on Sarlona; and thanks to the High Lords of Malkier's teaching raids (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438773-High-Lords-will-host-Reaver-and-FOT-teaching-raid-on-Saturday-March-22-at-8pm-EST!), I've even gotten to try tanking my first couple of raid bosses.

As I suspected, the main drawbacks to this build are low Reflex saves and lack of self-healing. Rejuv Cocoon provides some heals; Light the Dark and soon Renewal will help while I'm in US. I'm also struggling a bit with my tactics DCs; clearly adding Div Might would help. So I am contemplating an LR to tweak things, while still staying mostly-ftr. My current inclination is ftr 16 / pal 2 / FvS 2:

Pal 2 gets me Divine Grace (+CHA to saves), Smite Evil (to power Intolerant Blows in US), and LoHs (to power LtD); Sacred D. gets me +3 MDB (which also raises my Dodge cap) and +3 LoHs for 7 APs.
FvS gets me Div Might, Smite Foe / Weakness, Wall of Steel (+10 PRR), Magical Training / Echoes of Power (which I can boost further with Endless Faith), and access to Emp Heal feat. I could pick up DM w/pally 2, ofc, but this way I don't have to use a Twist for Bane of Undeath; plus it costs fewer APs from WP than KotC.

I gain quite a bit, but I have to give up two feats, the SD capstone (which has saved my bacon more than once), and Defensive Sweep (which is pretty blah, but sometimes you need all the +threat you can get and it should qualify for Combat Brute while in LD).

EDIT: I've got a lvl 20 Kundarak Wall variant (first life, STR-based) on Argon, but I haven't played her in a while. She had better saves & Evasion, which gave her a distinct advantage in survivability. Couldn't really compare her DPS, since I'd only just started on her epic gear when I left her.

Cardtrick

03-31-2014, 04:19 PM

My current inclination is ftr 16 / pal 2 / FvS 2:

Pal 2 gets me Divine Grace (+CHA to saves), Smite Evil (to power Intolerant Blows in US), and LoHs (to power LtD); Sacred D. gets me +3 MDB (which also raises my Dodge cap) and +3 LoHs for 7 APs.
FvS gets me Div Might, Smite Foe / Weakness, Wall of Steel (+10 PRR), Magical Training / Echoes of Power (which I can boost further with Endless Faith), and access to Emp Heal feat. I could pick up DM w/pally 2, ofc, but this way I don't have to use a Twist for Bane of Undeath; plus it costs fewer APs from WP than KotC.

Are the APs too tight to drop it to Fighter 14 / pal 2 / FvS 4 and take Ameliorating Strike?

You would lose one more feat, which I guess might be the bigger cost, but it seems like a shame to spend enough APs in Warpriest to get Divine Might, the PRR, Smite Weakness, etc., without picking up one more self healing option. Especially on a build that's already going to be investing in healing amp and devotion, and which will already be using Smite.

I've just been on a big Ameliorating Strike kick lately . . . I was underwhelmed with it in the low heroic levels, but it scales really nicely with levels and gear.

Nodoze

03-31-2014, 04:47 PM

The Ameliorating Strike idea is intriguing.

Guess I am more interested in seeing a Dwarven Con to damage toon in action with better saves and Evasion with a Shield just because it seems interesting and would love to see how some people actually leveraged it.

Not taking anything away from a traditional Dwarven Defender. Hopefully one day you can cap both and contrast compare them.

unbongwah

03-31-2014, 05:45 PM

Are the APs too tight to drop it to Fighter 14 / pal 2 / FvS 4 and take Ameliorating Strike?
Well, apart from the fact I don't have an LR +6 handy, it costs 12 APs to go from tier 2 WP -> AS. So what do I drop from my wishlist?

36 APs into Stalwart D. for Block & Cut and max defensive stance
18-20 APs into dwarf tree for Dwarf Fortress & other bonuses
4-21 APs into Kensei for at least Haste Boost, ideally all the way to Power Surge
7 APs into Sacred D. for +3 MDB & +3 LoHs (US-only)

That's up to 84 APs on my wishlist and that's before I get around to spending 10 APs on WP just to get the stuff I listed earlier. :( I could make it work if I did, say, 36 APs into SD, 22 APs into WP, 4 APs into Kensei, and 18 APs into dwarf for Fortress. But at that point I may need to give up tactics DCs, since without the extra +7 from Kensei, I'm not sure Div Might makes up the difference.

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 19

Errr, thanks, I guess? File that one under "damning with faint praise"...

Wizard or sorcerer are obvious choices, esp. if you don't have Warforged unlocked; +4 INT or CHA is good for either, naturally, and now that skill pts matter to casters, +2 INT on a sorc ain't so bad. +INT/DEX is also good for an INT-based Assassin, though obviously the -2 CON makes a squishy class even squishier. I still think drow are a good choice for a first-life TWF pally, esp. if you don't have 32-pt builds unlocked yet; now whether pallies are a good class in the first place is another matter entirely.

But my favorite drow build is probably still my first one: a DEX-based TWF rogue / bard. She's gimpy as hell, although U19 made DEX builds slightly less gimpy; but she's one of my oldest chars, so I still have a soft spot for her. :)Was just re-reviewing aspects of this thread and curious if you redid your Dex-based TWF drow bard as a SWF swashbuckler?

Also putting in my request now for a heavy Divine based Dwarven Defender varient to see how they compare to more Fighter heavy ones after AC and Paladin changes go live (obviously I am also hoping that the AC & Paladin changes end up being for the better)...

Personally I plan on keeping an eye on your Dwarven Defender variants and hoping they all get some buffs as I really want to play a Constitution based AC tank. Personally I would love to see a variant with a heavy divine component (either deep Paladin &/or just enough Cleric or FvS to get more self healing).

unbongwah

07-31-2014, 03:54 PM

Was just re-reviewing aspects of this thread and curious if you redid your Dex-based TWF drow bard as a SWF swashbuckler?
My drow rog / bard is on Argon; I've mostly been playing on Sarlona this year, so she's been on the back bench for the last 6-12 months. I've had a few ideas about what to LR her into, though she's bard 16 / rog 3 / ftr 1, IIRC, which limits my options. Probably what I'll do is come up with a DEX-based SDK Swashbuckler to test my gimpy ideas, just as soon as I find a HE Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skullsmasher_%28Level_14%29) on the AH cheap. ;)

Also putting in my request now for a heavy Divine based Dwarven Defender varient to see how they compare to more Fighter heavy ones after AC and Paladin changes go live (obviously I am also hoping that the AC & Paladin changes end up being for the better)...
I've already reverse-engineered someone else's dwarf FvS 12 / ftr 6 / pal 2 build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446074-S-amp-B-End-Game-EE-Solos-no-blitz-no-ranged-no-evasion?p=5389398&viewfull=1#post5389398), which is probably what I would do too if I went that route. The only time I use my Dwarven Defender as a raid tank is in guild runs where I can count on having a dedicated healer, fortunately. But for something I used in PUGs or for soloing, having plenty of self-heals is definitely a must, IMHO.

I recently ERed my Dwarven Defender in preparation to HTR. For fun I decided to take SWF feats instead of THF; I also rearrange feats to focus on Kensei (Keen Edge + capstone), but still kept my hand in DD w/shield feats. With just an eJustice (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Templar%27s_Justice), I'm definitely noticing a substantial increase in DPS (despite the reduced glancing blows) thanks to the higher atk speed, double the crits, and +200% STR bonus to dmg. [+15% doublestrike from Kensei capstone vs +25% from Block & Cut 1/2 the time is more of a wash.] And that's with a buffed STR of "only" 50 (+20); I'm sure it's even more extreme on something with higher stats. The biggest drawback is Cleave animations are slower when SWF than S&B; but since the dmg per hit is significantly higher and the cooldowns are the same, it's not really a major loss.

Nodoze

07-31-2014, 06:34 PM

My drow rog / bard is on Argon; I've mostly been playing on Sarlona this year, so she's been on the back bench for the last 6-12 months. I've had a few ideas about what to LR her into, though she's bard 16 / rog 3 / ftr 1, IIRC, which limits my options. Probably what I'll do is come up with a DEX-based SDK Swashbuckler to test my gimpy ideas, just as soon as I find a HE Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skullsmasher_%28Level_14%29) on the AH cheap. ;)

I've already reverse-engineered someone else's dwarf FvS 12 / ftr 6 / pal 2 build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446074-S-amp-B-End-Game-EE-Solos-no-blitz-no-ranged-no-evasion?p=5389398&viewfull=1#post5389398), which is probably what I would do too if I went that route. The only time I use my Dwarven Defender as a raid tank is in guild runs where I can count on having a dedicated healer, fortunately. But for something I used in PUGs or for soloing, having plenty of self-heals is definitely a must, IMHO.

I recently ERed my Dwarven Defender in preparation to HTR. For fun I decided to take SWF feats instead of THF; I also rearrange feats to focus on Kensei (Keen Edge + capstone), but still kept my hand in DD w/shield feats. With just an eJustice (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Templar%27s_Justice), I'm definitely noticing a substantial increase in DPS (despite the reduced glancing blows) thanks to the higher atk speed, double the crits, and +200% STR bonus to dmg. [+15% doublestrike from Kensei capstone vs +25% from Block & Cut 1/2 the time is more of a wash.] And that's with a buffed STR of "only" 50 (+20); I'm sure it's even more extreme on something with higher stats. The biggest drawback is Cleave animations are slower when SWF than S&B; but since the dmg per hit is significantly higher and the cooldowns are the same, it's not really a major loss.After trying a few things over a couple of lives that build you reverse-engineered is along the lines I was thinking would be optimal with the current state of the game except that if I go Dwarf, even though the AP are kinda steep, I want to somehow fit in the Dwarven Constitution to damage just to try it (and hopefully they make Divine Might work for non Strength builds at some point)...

I already did to cap a 13Cleric/6Paladin/1Fighter & 14Cleric/6Paladin and really liked that the AP invested in the Paladin Sacred Defender and the Cleric/FvS Divine trees all gave Positive Spell Power as the resulting self & party healing was really good. I did all of this before Divine Crusader was released so everything was done in either US or LD depending on whether I was going for more Tank or more DPS on that given quest... I am glad I tried it and though the survivability was great the DPS was lacking...

I am hoping that the revised Paladin Enhancements have a higher DPS S&B option for Paladins, hopefully with lots of Double-Strike, more like Stalwart Defender than Sacred Defender. If they do that my preference will be to go high enough Divine to get the full Heal spell (probably go FvS instead of Cleric this time but both have their merits) and go Paladin with the rest (splashing Fighter if feats are tight)... That being said if they don't release some better Paladin trees/mechanics then likely have to go Stalwart for Block & Cut and go more fighter and maybe just splash 2 Paladin for DG (assuming it is still worth it after the nerf)... Ideally I want to keep at least 2 Paladin in there for nostalga/theme reasons as I would like to make this DDO character based off of one of my Dwarven Paladins from the 70s & 80s...

Thanks for all you do and for giving me another thread to subscribe to. Keeping up with all my subscribed threads usually takes up my DDO Forum time such that I often miss new threads unless someone links to them in one of the existing threads that I follow...

Nodoze

07-31-2014, 08:16 PM

I just finished reviewing the Armor up Dev diary 3 thread...

May have to give up on such a deep Divine splash and try a Dwarven Defender with 14Paladin+ either Fighter5/6 or more Paladin or possibly FvS 3+ for Shield of Condemnation & cheaper Divine Might...

It will be interesting to see how all of this shakes out and what actually goes live...

Edit: Was re-reviewing this thread to see the FvS variants noticed I wrote in this post "14Paladin+ Paladin..." and I meant 14Paladin + the options listed above...

unbongwah

08-01-2014, 10:07 AM

The proposed changes to Holy Sword are actually reviving my interest in pure pallies, if only so I have more than two lvl 4 spell slots (Zeal, Holy Sword, CSW, DW). But that can wait until they actually go live.

Nodoze

08-01-2014, 12:34 PM

Yeah it will be interesting to see when it goes live.

Part of the decision will be how enticing the Paladin T5's & capstone are compared to what you can gain from 1-6 levels of splash(es).

Before on my Paladins I only cared about going into quests with Zeal and CSW as I was fine with a DeathBlock item & pre-casting HolySwords and resting & going into quests (or even better with you could grab a HolySword from your TR cache if you were in a hurry).

If they leave the spells being granted per level they way they are currently then level 14 will be a huge level for Holy Sword but it will be hard not to want at least 15th level to pick up zeal as a second 4th level spell.

Looks like the 14Paladin/5Rogue/1Monk or 15Paladin/5Rogue may be some nice combos if the feats & AP aren't too tight...

Hopefully there will be something enticing at T5 for the Paladin Trees &/or at the Core4/5 capstone that makes being pure not relatively gimp. May still do it for flavor anyway but it would be nice to be competitive.

It will also be interesting to see how the changes to armor and shields factor in because it would be nice have decent S&B DPS with good mitigation.

Choices, choices, choices...

yanaga132

08-06-2014, 05:32 PM

A bit late, but were your DC's adequate enough for you in epic content? As I've got a Dwarven defender in the works, and I'm unsure whether to go for that, or a more damage based build.

yanaga132

08-06-2014, 11:36 PM

A bit late, but were your DC's adequate enough for you in epic content? As I've got a Dwarven defender in the works, and I'm unsure whether to go for that, or a more damage based build.

Also, while I'm on the topic, I'm curious if you ended up liking the pure fighter build w/ it's capstone more than a pally splash? I did notice that you found yourself liking the SD capstone more than you had thought you would.

I'm thinking of trying out both myself, as well as a variant on the favored soul build once I get the class.

Nodoze

08-07-2014, 06:31 AM

Also, while I'm on the topic, I'm curious if you ended up liking the pure fighter build w/ it's capstone more than a pally splash? I did notice that you found yourself liking the SD capstone more than you had thought you would.

I'm thinking of trying out both myself, as well as a variant on the favored soul build once I get the class.Which FvS variant(s) are you wanting to try?

I am particularly interested in ideas around fleshing out the reverse-engineered dwarf FvS 12 / ftr 6 / pal 2 build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446074-S-amp-B-End-Game-EE-Solos-no-blitz-no-ranged-no-evasion?p=5389398&viewfull=1#post5389398) leveraging the Dwarven Defender S&B and Tanking thoughts in this thread as it adds in a reliable/repeatable full real self-heal though personally I would want to see how a Con based one compares to the Strength based one... My hope is to get some of the self-sufficiency of my previous Human/PDK 13Cleric/6Paladin/1Fighter & 14Cleric/6Paladin experiments but with an even higher safety margin due to more hit points and moar DPS.

unbongwah

08-07-2014, 09:16 AM

A bit late, but were your DC's adequate enough for you in epic content? As I've got a Dwarven defender in the works, and I'm unsure whether to go for that, or a more damage based build.
With an adamantine bear cloak (Combat Mastery +6) and Legendary Tactics (+6 DCs) Twisted in, I was fine in EN/EH content. I also had various +10 tactics weapons I could use as need be, like a duergar waraxe of Stunning +10. I didn't run a lot of EEs on this build, but I'm sure I would've needed more help for them. Any tactics builds w/out Div Might & high CHA is at a serious disadvantage, unfortunately.

Also, while I'm on the topic, I'm curious if you ended up liking the pure fighter build w/ it's capstone more than a pally splash? I did notice that you found yourself liking the SD capstone more than you had thought you would.
In terms of survivability, Div Grace is practically a must-have for a "real" tank, IMHO; there's simply no other way to hit viable Reflex saves, unless maybe you give up all your Twists for Reflex bonuses. :( I'm hoping the proposed armor changes make hvy armor builds more viable, but that doesn't really address the need for good saves.

I enjoyed my pure ftr build; at the risk of boasting, I think I made it as good as possible given the self-imposed constraints. But the shortcomings of pure ftrs I cited in my OP are all still present; mostly I was just lucky to have a dedicated healer strapped to my back for most guild raids. :o

troublegurl

10-09-2014, 11:00 AM

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 23

Just returning after a year away and alot of changes to get used to? Is this build still viable with all the updates since originally posted?

Thank you

unbongwah

10-09-2014, 01:03 PM

Just returning after a year away and alot of changes to get used to? Is this build still viable with all the updates since originally posted?
Pallies have really stolen the limelight from ftrs this update, but a pure ftr should still be a solid choice, with all the same pros & cons it's always had, except MRR helps alleviate the drawback of having poor Reflex saves.

I haven't yet figured out how to update this build, but I would definitely focus on Vanguard first, then Stalwart, then Kensei+dwarf with any leftover APs. One possibility is 41 APs into Vanguard for capstone, 33 APs into SD for Block & Cut (one of the nicest DPS boosts for S&B and Shield Charge in T5 Vanguard is currently bugged), with the remaining APs sprinkled between Kensei & dwarf. Also the change to Overwhelming Crit pre-reqs means you go from needing base STR 23 to only needing STR 17 for ITHF/GTHF; that opens up TYWA as an option again, although it's expensive.