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Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

When you start to think about all the things Granger is the "best at" on this team on offense, it gets a little daunting.

He is the best long ranger shooter, he is the best mid ranger shooter, he maybe the best finisher in traffic, he is the best guy at switching between half court and up tempo, he is the best guy off the basketball (both looking to score and looking to help people out), he might be the best person on the team at setting picks and screens.

It didn't become as clear til you see the dumpster fire Pacers offense without him, but yeah....

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

Granger is THAT GOOD, when you look at the rest of our offensive players. Granger was tactically a very important piece of the Pacer puzzle. Now we should be better than we are even without Danny, but that doesn't change how important he was. It just illustrates how bad everyone else has been.

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

By the way I think is amazing that Peck keeps repeating that he pretty much wants Paul George to be traded because "his value would never be this high", funny that I've been saying the same thing about Danny and I'm some kind of hater, even right now people are saying it and the Danny fan club are freaking out about trading him "because they need his leadership"....

Yeah let's trade a player that is only 22 years old and keep and broken down player because he has the "clutch gene" great idea....

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

So Roy and West have regressed so much that they're worse than their rookie years?

Even I was so fed up last night that I turned off the game, but clearly the Pacers aren't actually THIS bad.

Roy is in his typical 3 months cocoon he is the only one that I expect to come out of it, West looks tired to me, maybe age is affecting him already? he is 32 going 33 so I don't expect him to play well all the time.

Green is Green, Ian is Ian, Augustine could get a little better, Paul George could probably improve a bit more, Tyler is Tyler, Hill is Hill, at the end of the day I just don't see it, where the improvement is going to come from? Yes they are probably not going to be this bad but that doesn't mean that they are not going to be a bad team.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

Roy is in his typical 3 months cocoon he is the only one that I expect to come out of it, West looks tired to me, maybe age is affecting him already? he is 32 going 33 so I don't expect him to play well all the time.

Green is Green, Ian is Ian, Augustine could get a little better, Paul George could probably improve a bit more, Tyler is Tyler, Hill is Hill, at the end of the day I just don't see it, where the improvement is going to come from?

Maybe the two guys you just mentioned that you expect will start playing better? Roy and West have been atrocious, but this isn't their normal.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

Maybe the two guys you just mentioned that you expect will start playing better? Roy and West have been atrocious, but this isn't their normal.

So is that really going to improve the Pacers so much that they are not going to look this bad? yeah I don't see it, maybe they move from out of the playoffs to 8th seed I think.

David West average is already high at 15 and 8, I think is a reach if we expect him to average more than that, Roy is the only out the two were I can see and improvement from 8 points to his normal 12ppg and from 8rpg to his normal 8.8, Roy's shooting percentage should also go up, ok let's say that all this happens, so is that enough to remove them from the "they are not this bad category"? my answer is no.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

No, Peck said PG's value would never be higher but never said to trade him. The one does not necessarily mean the other.

I didn't know we had to check for players values once in a while, of course he means that he is open to trade him.

In your case you not only said Granger's trade value wouldn't be higher but every player that came along you suggested trading Danny for him. That was explicit.

No one got on your case for saying Granger's trade value wouldn't increase. They got on your case for wanting to trade him for every Tom, Dick, or Monta in the league.

I wanted to trade Danny for some value because I knew that his knees were not going to last this long, the guy has been having knee issues since college, I guess who was right after all? I bet we could have a better record with somebody capable of playing instead but nope let's don't do that.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

I notice you didn't point out that West is a career 49% shooter, and right now he's shooting about 41%. Roy is also shooting the lowest percentage of his career.

When you're entire team's identity is based around playing inside-out, and your inside players absolutely suck, it drags the entire system down.

West looks old to me I don't think he is going to get any better, I expect him to stay where he is right now, maybe his % goes up a bit but I still don't see it as a reason to say that the Pacers are somehow back into elite teams.

And also teams already know how to shut both guys down, they know how to push Roy out of position and they know how to remove the West ISO's.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

Can't say much more to someone that goes from saying that they expect Roy and West to play better just a few posts ago, to now saying that West won't play better, and that teams have figured out the secret recipe to completely shutting both of them down.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

I never expected such a performance out of this team. After how much passion and pride was displayed just a season ago. Granger or not, there is no excuse for this.

A team coach by Frank Vogel and a Pacers team with these players. I really can't believe it appears they've accepted this. Guys who shared great chemistry last season almost look like they don't know what they're supposed to do out there. Pretty much throwing the ball to the other team. No one is in position to do anything offensively.

If this team were to at least give a damn, we would've won the majority of the games so far.

Each player better search DEEP and find themselves quickly because it's become such a disgrace. No team that wants to contend and can plays like this.

I'm really hoping we can get this turned around and not lose too much ground because it's still very early in the season, but honestly I'm not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

Can't say much more to someone that goes from saying that they expect Roy and West to play better just a few posts ago, to now saying that West won't play better, and that teams have figured out the secret recipe to completely shutting both of them down.

I said that Roy is supposed to get better(if he comes out of his cocoon) from 8 and 8 to his normal 12 and 8 and regarding West I'm actually saying that he is producing at his highest at this point in his career I don't see an increase there.

And you like to hear it or not yes teams are learning to shut them down and to be fair I don't think is that complicated, the offense is just crap.

Note: Saying that somebody is probably playing better doesn't mean that that player goes from good to superstar or anything like that.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

Right now here's what I see our biggest problem as. We have one guy in the starting lineup that can actually play the up tempo/half tempo mix we kind of played last year, Hill. PG and Lance or PG and Green are really better suited to up tempo, and Roy and West are really better suited to half court. Danny was another guy who can play both ways, but when it is just Hill the difference is startling.

In half court, our perimeter guys really struggle, PG can't beat his man off the dribble, Lance can, but often times settles for a bad mid range jumper instead of finishing the attack.

West and Hibbert flat out get completely gassed when we try to push the pace at all it seems like.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

What I'm wondering is why do we not have a counter for teams that shut down our inside players?! This is what coaching is, making adjustments when other coaches take away your first option. For whatever reason, our two starting bigs can't convert layups. Okay cool. LET'S DO SOMETHING ELSE! FT line extended curls for our wings, dribble hand-offs, SOMETHING. Quit spending 16 seconds trying to wait for Roy to NOT get position/miss a layup when he does get position.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

I said that Roy is supposed to get better(if he comes out of his cocoon) from 8 and 8 to his normal 12 and 8 and regarding West I'm actually saying that he is producing at his highest at this point in his career I don't see an increase there.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

Right now here's what I see our biggest problem as. We have one guy in the starting lineup that can actually play the up tempo/half tempo mix we kind of played last year, Hill. PG and Lance or PG and Green are really better suited to up tempo, and Roy and West are really better suited to half court. Danny was another guy who can play both ways, but when it is just Hill the difference is startling.

In half court, our perimeter guys really struggle, PG can't beat his man off the dribble, Lance can, but often times settles for a bad mid range jumper instead of finishing the attack.

West and Hibbert flat out get completely gassed when we try to push the pace at all it seems like.

I think a big part of our lack of dribble penetration is the fact that Roy and/or West are pretty much around the basket at all times. When having two post players within the offense, it's hard to have proper spacing on the floor for dribble drives. It was able to work last year because Roy and West were hitting higher % of their FGA AND we had Danny in the corner or on the wing occupying a defender.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

I think a big part of our lack of dribble penetration is the fact that Roy and/or West are pretty much around the basket at all times. When having two post players within the offense, it's hard to have proper spacing on the floor for dribble drives. It was able to work last year because Roy and West were hitting higher % of their FGA AND we had Danny in the corner or on the wing occupying a defender.

Not only that but teams are just collapasing the inside daring the Pacers to beat them from outside, and they can't do it. If Danny was playing, and teams tried focusing squarely on clogging the middle, he'd drop 30 on them. That's what is missing, and that's why Danny is so important to the whole offensive flow.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

Not only that but teams are just collapasing the inside daring the Pacers to beat them from outside, and they can't do it. If Danny was playing, and teams tried focusing squarely on clogging the middle, he'd drop 30 on them. That's what is missing, and that's why Danny is so important to the whole offensive flow.

Yep, no one on the perimeter commands the respect Danny did. Everyone knows that PG got most of his points last year off fast breaks. No one fears him in the half court.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

If this team were to at least give a damn, we would've won the majority of the games so far.

I'm never sure where things like this come from. If they DIDN'T give a damn we wouldn't be talking about their body language showing they are down and defeated, we'd be complaining about them laughing and joking while they get their rear ends kicked.

They clearly give a damn.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

I'm never sure where things like this come from. If they DIDN'T give a damn we wouldn't be talking about their body language showing they are down and defeated, we'd be complaining about them laughing and joking while they get their rear ends kicked.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

I'm never sure where things like this come from. If they DIDN'T give a damn we wouldn't be talking about their body language showing they are down and defeated, we'd be complaining about them laughing and joking while they get their rear ends kicked.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

Not only that but teams are just collapasing the inside daring the Pacers to beat them from outside, and they can't do it. If Danny was playing, and teams tried focusing squarely on clogging the middle, he'd drop 30 on them. That's what is missing, and that's why Danny is so important to the whole offensive flow.

Who puts fear in the opposing team? George Hill certainly doesn't.

George Hill isn't going to consistently drop 30. 12-18? Yes. Danny will drop 30 and talk trash while he does it lol. You're right, that's what's missing from this team. And that's why Danny's value is so high--to THIS team. His game is suited perfectly for the inside/out game that Vogel wants to play, and then his intensity/"swag" gets other guys going.

The lack of confidence/intensity has been missing all season. I think that Danny brought a lot of that out of our team.