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Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

he is really a good passer - I mean really good,

I disagree on this, I just haven't seen it from him. He lacks one arm strength to make a lot of passes where 2 hand passes are too slow or awkward (crossing your body for example). He also doesn't have the handles to position the ball for trickier passes. You aren't going to see the behind the back type of moves, or even a killer cross-over to pull your defender out of your passing lane.

He is the epitome of simplistic fundamentals paired with hustle that finds it's way into a modest bench role and the hearts of millions of fans.

I think O'Brien says it very well here, on what Diener brings to the Pacers.

"We like his tempo and spacing, and he gets guys moving and he distributes the basketball," O'Brien said about Diener

I think what JOB likes is the pace Diener plays at. He tries to move with the ball at a high rate and is pretty good about staying aware of his off-the-ball movement.

I think Ike is about as flawed as Harrison. Yes he has some things that when you see them you think "stud post guy", but like Hulk he also has massive gaps in his game that are easily (and often) exploited by other teams.

He can't pass, doesn't have the height to see over traps/doubles, doesn't have height to deny a lot of post scoring, and isn't fast like some smaller post men.

He gets great position, he has a decent mid-game and he has a fair set of post scoring moves. It's not enough to be a 25 mpg guy IMO, not for most teams at least.

I love Danny and Shawne but it really feels like they will have to give them up in order to fix other problems.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

Those are Ike's +/- numbers for the first three games. I like Ike and think he's quite talented, but if he was carrying us at any point during those games, he obviously wasn't doing that great of a job of it.

I agree, and before people slam the stat keep in mind what it means and how that matches what you saw him doing.

While he was on the floor the Pacers were losing leads or falling behind. No matter what he was doing in that time, how was that resulting in "carrying the team" if they were losing with him out there?

I don't care if he went 12-12 with 15 rebounds in 2 freaking minutes, if you somehow lost that 2 minute stretch by 10 then he wasn't saving the day.

Just do me this one favor with the +/- stat, ask yourself how it is possible for the team to fall behind/lose a period of game by so much when that player is kicking butt? That's what the +/- shows, it shows that while SOME stats on a guy look good there might be other aspects that are hidden from normal stats but are affecting the game just as much.

Guy goes 1-2 but the other team goes 2-2 the other way and lead by 2. Why did that happen? It wasn't his 50% shooting. By that stat he's great.

Hey, maybe it's the other 4 guys, or some guy he's not guarding on the other team that's going off, or even a guy he is guarding that's just having one of those nights. Regardless none of that sums up to "carrying the team". At best you get something more like "it would have been even worse without him". That does happen, just like some guys get a +/- bump thanks to guys they are playing with.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

Here's a plan: Hire a shooting coach, or get JJ Redick, because he's apparently the best shooter in NBA history, and have him focus on Jamaal Tinsley, Troy Murphy and Marquis Daniels - you know, the guys who can't make jump shots.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

Here's a plan: Hire a shooting coach, or get JJ Redick, because he's apparently the best shooter in NBA history, and have him focus on Jamaal Tinsley, Troy Murphy and Marquis Daniels - you know, the guys who can't make jump shots.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

UB's suggestions may be good ones, but they're all short-term. The problem with short term solutions is that they tend to neglect the long term aspects.

The long term aspects of this team are not that bad actually. The bloated contracts that will expire 2-3 years from now actually force mid-high draft choices for the next 2-3 years. Trading JO for picks, and maybe a decent piece can be a positive as well.

IMO there's only 1 real NBA starter on the Pacers and that's Danny Granger. He's the only guy I'd give a contract extension. All the others have ample replacement.

Long term, this team needs an all-star caliber guard (point, combo, shooting, whatever). Then it will need a dominant big man. Sorry JO, that's maybe what you were, but surely not any more.

An all-star guard, with a dominant big, surrounded by good shooters and some physical bangers, with veteran leadership off the bench. That's the recipe, and the only semi-piece in place is Danny Granger as the complement shooter role.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

I disagree on this, I just haven't seen it from him. He lacks one arm strength to make a lot of passes where 2 hand passes are too slow or awkward (crossing your body for example). He also doesn't have the handles to position the ball for trickier passes. You aren't going to see the behind the back type of moves, or even a killer cross-over to pull your defender out of your passing lane.

He is the epitome of simplistic fundamentals paired with hustle that finds it's way into a modest bench role and the hearts of millions of fans.

I think what JOB likes is the pace Diener plays at. He tries to move with the ball at a high rate and is pretty good about staying aware of his off-the-ball movement.

I would like to say that Diener showed better passing and better moves in the last 2 games than I credited him for here. He is still a backup caliber player that can be good for 10-20 minutes depending on the flow, but then I wasn't really denying that anyway.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

The long term aspects of this team are not that bad actually. The bloated contracts that will expire 2-3 years from now actually force mid-high draft choices for the next 2-3 years. Trading JO for picks, and maybe a decent piece can be a positive as well.

So that's losing this year, losing the next 2 as well, then JO expires. Unfortunately you have to resign Danny, Ike and maybe Quis. Oh, and either resign JO for much less or find another PF. All for about 25-30m, not counting any high ranking draft pick deals that come before then (usually around 2-3m I think), or Foster for that matter.

Then after yet another year of probable losing with a team trying to find it's way and clear space you finally lose the Dun, Troy and Tins deals. Now you can actually do something with that money and maybe get into the FA market. Of course don't forget that Shawne might need resigned and then the year after this a guy perhaps like Eric Gordon, if the Pacers get lucky/unlucky (however you view all that losing). And you might still want Dun at that point.

5 years of losing just to get good picks, some of which might be Bender, and none of which are promised to gel. I give you Kidd, Mashburn and Jim Jackson as example "A".

I mean this seriously, what team in the NBA doesn't have an outlook just as positive as that? Even the Knicks will lose their contracts by then.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

So that's losing this year, losing the next 2 as well, then JO expires. Unfortunately you have to resign Danny, Ike and maybe Quis. Oh, and either resign JO for much less or find another PF. All for about 25-30m, not counting any high ranking draft pick deals that come before then (usually around 2-3m I think), or Foster for that matter.

Then after yet another year of probable losing with a team trying to find it's way and clear space you finally lose the Dun, Troy and Tins deals. Now you can actually do something with that money and maybe get into the FA market. Of course don't forget that Shawne might need resigned and then the year after this a guy perhaps like Eric Gordon, if the Pacers get lucky/unlucky (however you view all that losing). And you might still want Dun at that point.

5 years of losing just to get good picks, some of which might be Bender, and none of which are promised to gel. I give you Kidd, Mashburn and Jim Jackson as example "A".

I mean this seriously, what team in the NBA doesn't have an outlook just as positive as that? Even the Knicks will lose their contracts by then.

I don't know if I've ever agreed with you more than what you are saying right here and right now.

BTW, great great great examples of Kidd, Mashburn and Jackson. Perfect.

I'm with you on this, there is no one sure fire way to be a contender. If there was then everybody would do it.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

The closest thing to a sure fire method is make moves based on making the chemistry (on two fronts: Basketball and Personnel) good or keeping it there while molding the team around talented building blocks.

I think we're starting to get 1/3 of it right, but 2/3 are still ahead. We're getting the Personnel chemistry back, but now we need talented building blocks and we need a team that works better as a team. Actually fixing the talent might fix both at the same time if it's the right guy or guys.

Now, how do you do it? Well when you're low in talent you have to add some through the draft first, then you start to trade second IMO.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

At this point we have two options.

1. We can continue on as we are and go into rebuilding mode.

2. We can go after a true impact go-to player and do what it takes to get that player.

I'm hoping Bird is looking at option 2. Because having a bunch of role players hasn't won us any championships in our entire history. There's no reason to think it's going to happen now. Has this franchise lost sight of it's goal?

The goal isn't to cruise along and pick up garbage contracts, deal with off court incidents, and miss the post season. The goal isn't to come up with team slogans [because this aint High School].

Championships is what it's about. Not getting to the playoffs. Not just being competitive. Not just doing what the fans want. Championship is the goal. I think over the last couple of years this team has really been selling itself short. Being too conservative with the moves it makes. Larry Bird has Jermaine O'Neal declining but still tradable, has an experienced front office veteran in Donnie Walsh to go to for advice, yet in the off-season all he could come up with is Travis Diener and Kareem Rush?

I want to see some bold moves, but bold moves that make sense. Let's go ahead and do what we have to do with Tinsley, and maybe even Jermaine, and lets get players here that are going to get us to our goal.

If I'm Larry Bird, nobody is untouchable. Everybody has a price, and I'd be willing to pay a price to get a player that's going to fit better than what we've got now. If I'm Larry, I'm looking at what needs to be done right this second. We need a true aggressive leader type of player in here that can get his own shot, can make his own shot, can defend some, can get to the line, and can stay out of trouble. We have enough guys that somebody would want in exchange for this type of player, so Larry needs get on it.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

We need a true aggressive leader type of player in here that can get his own shot, can make his own shot, can defend some, can get to the line, and can stay out of trouble. We have enough guys that somebody would want in exchange for this type of player, so Larry needs get on it.

So in other words, you want an all-star or superstar. That's the type of thing every team in the league is looking to add, often times even ones that already have a player like that.

That's like saying you want to trade all your bad contracts for cap relief and draft picks. Again, what team ISN'T looking for that?

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

If I'm Larry Bird, nobody is untouchable. Everybody has a price, and I'd be willing to pay a price to get a player that's going to fit better than what we've got now. If I'm Larry, I'm looking at what needs to be done right this second. We need a true aggressive leader type of player in here that can get his own shot, can make his own shot, can defend some, can get to the line, and can stay out of trouble. We have enough guys that somebody would want in exchange for this type of player, so Larry needs get on it.

Hmm where would we find such a player....(see my crudely strung together avatar)

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

So in other words, you want an all-star or superstar. That's the type of thing every team in the league is looking to add, often times even ones that already have a player like that.

That's like saying you want to trade all your bad contracts for cap relief and draft picks. Again, what team ISN'T looking for that?

To answer both questions, the Spurs.

Anyway, yes I'm aware that most teams are looking for what we're looking for. But unlike most teams, we continuously fail at landing those players. We're always mentioned in rumors, but most of the time a rumor is all that is. I'm tired of seeing us be conservative and picky. We don't want this guy because he stole a computer when he was 18. We don't want that guy because he was injured once. We don't want that guy because he threw a chair once. We don't want that guy because he yelled at his coach once...

A lot of us talk about what the hell we don't want as if we have a team full of saints. As if we have a team full of guys that sleep with the bible and knit during the nights instead of hitting the clubs. Reality is that every one of our players go out. Every one of our player put themselves in positions that could be considered questionable. Hell, my buddy 2 nights ago called me from the Triangle Lounge in San Francisco telling me he saw Troy Murphy leaving there at 2:15am dressed like some punk guy.

I just want us to take a damn chance. I want some players with some edge to them. I want the toughness back. I want players here with some testicular fortitude. I'm tired of having a bunch of guys that are looking for somebody else to make the next move. It would be different if we were like the Warriors (my 2nd favorite team and I'm a former season ticket holder of theirs during their worst years), where everybody was agressive. We have a coach that wants everybody to be aggressive, but that isn't the strength of most of our guys. Then we have the aggressive ones that shouldn't be so aggressive [cough cough Tinsley].

So if what I'm asking for is basically saying that we need an All-Star or Superstar, then hell yes that's what we need because what we have aint workin. We have enough pieces to get one, we need to make it happen.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

The closest thing to a sure fire method is make moves based on making the chemistry (on two fronts: Basketball and Personnel) good or keeping it there while molding the team around talented building blocks.

I think we're starting to get 1/3 of it right, but 2/3 are still ahead. We're getting the Personnel chemistry back, but now we need talented building blocks and we need a team that works better as a team. Actually fixing the talent might fix both at the same time if it's the right guy or guys.

Now, how do you do it? Well when you're low in talent you have to add some through the draft first, then you start to trade second IMO.

I agree on the idea, but I'm not sure the personnel is as fixed as you think. Some of it has to do with newness and being away from the losing. Honestly to me it seems like the sniping on court between players is growing and perhaps worse than last year.

Again, I hated the GS trade because it moved Jackson for the wrong reason, and in the case of both Al and Jack it didn't address the on-court chemistry issues one bit, let alone the financial situation. And even the off-court stuff, despite all the talk, isn't a sure-fire thing as I just mentioned. They addressed the FAN-player chemistry, the one thing that really doesn't matter.

It's a trick, you think "move the guy they don't like and they'll return", but then the fans don't make good on that. So why make a deal to appease them? The answer is you don't.

If they wanted to deal Jack, if they needed to deal Al, then they needed to consider the current or future coach, as well as the current and future chances of winning. There is no way TPTB could really think the GS deal would take them from 42 wins to 52 wins or something, so why take on the extra cash to stay about the same?

Back to the chemistry thing, it's not just nice guys get along. There are passive and aggressive types that feed each other, guys a player can complain to, guys that can get a teammate to man up, all sorts of stuff. It could be that Dun starts taking offense to "street ball" Tins getting on him for his choices since Dun "knows the game" as a coach's kid. It could be that JO intimidates Danny, or that Danny and Shawne resent each other for filling the same role.

Who the F knows. All I know is that so far I'm not sold that the current version of TPTB know any better than we do. That worries me.

My thing with Rick was this: he was a PROVEN winner. He'd done it with so many different flavors of rosters that you know it's legit. Stackhouse, sure. Rip and Billups, okay. Kenny Anderson, yes. Tins, yes. Ron and JO and Al, yes. Without Reggie, yes. Post brawl without Ron or Jack, yes.

So when things go south maybe you question other aspects, maybe you wonder why this coach has suddenly, shockingly lost touch rather than dumping him and taking this odd direction of non-change.

Look, I said they HAD to stand pat, not that I wanted them too. They have painted themselves in a corner. I wouldn't dump another coach to solve the problem, I'd start putting down paint remover instead and realize you aren't getting out of this quickly. You'll have to free up some salary to make the losing more tolerable and you'll have to pick a player or two to build around.

I like JO quite a bit, but he's not that. I'm not even saying he has to go, maybe there just isn't anything that improves the situation with him moving. But you don't acquire players to compliment him at this point. Same with Tins. You either buy into Dun, Danny and/or Shawne or you buy into this year's draft pick.

Then both TPTB and JOB develop a plan that gives this the best odds of working, rather than trying to force something to happen (ahem, running, being defense first, being a post-up team, going for rebounds, anything). Let the talent determine the team's identity because you just don't get unlimited choices. Not every team gets to have Nash.

And BTW, being so deep into the season it's time to perhaps own up to their weak playoff chances and start adjusting for what they think they can do in this draft now.

It's true that the best laid plans go afoul, but the worst laid plans go EVEN MORE afoul. Go ahead and plan on getting that SG, PG, heck Love for PF, I don't care. Then deal guys you have now to get bench pieces that will be primed to compliment that next year or open up cap or trade options for next year to do that.

It doesn't have to be picks or expiring even. Just don't trade for 2 SGs if you really think you might see one you like near your draft position. Right now it doesn't feel like any plan near this level of vision is in place. It feels like they are busy working on bailing out this boat instead.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

Every one of our player put themselves in positions that could be considered questionable. Hell, my buddy 2 nights ago called me from the Triangle Lounge in San Francisco telling me he saw Troy Murphy leaving there at 2:15am dressed like some punk guy.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

*They should stand pat.
*Quit trading for the sake of trading.
*Retain all draft picks for the near future.
*Draft upperclassmen with experience and an inkling of character.
*Do not hand out any more extensions until absolutely sure about the player.
*Allow the fans to get acclimated to the freakin' roster for a change.
*Return to a grassroots PR approach and get as many former Pacers as possible on board. Get Slick Leonard, Mel Daniels, Quinn Buckner & Darnell Hillman out and about. Have current players host things, do autograph sessions etc more often and actually let people know they're happening.
*Televise the games.

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

Well if Tinsley keeps acting up and JOs knee does its thing...and the uncanny ability of us to lose talent to injury kicks up again this year I would say to you "whats luck got to do, got to do with it?" Indeed, "whats luck, with tanking set in motion?"

Re: Where do we go from here - yes a real plan

Well if Tinsley keeps acting up and JOs knee does its thing...and the uncanny ability of us to lose talent to injury kicks up again this year I would say to you "whats luck got to do, got to do with it?" Indeed, "whats luck, with tanking set in motion?"