[Discussion] Mass Shootings - Yeah, we need a thread just for this...

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This year is the deadliest year ever in terms of mass shootings. In a political climate of polarization, it becomes harder to suss out legitimate information from the misinformation propagated by those with political agendas. Complicating this more is the continual resistance of 2nd amendment advocates to allow for political talk surrounding these massacres. This will involve political discussion to see if there are ways we can all agree might be good ways to prevent mass shootings.

This discussion should involve the details of any current, or future mass shooting, and how they compare to past mass shootings. How are they the same? How are they different? Do gun laws have an impact? Does the race of the shooter affect how we treat them? What makes one a hate crime and one an act or terrorism? Are these shootings the price of freedom?

I considered making a thread for the Texas shooting, but decided that it would be gross to have multiple threads popping up on the same topic, since mass shootings seem to be here to stay. So feel free o bring up past events as well as current events.

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Castiel: I suggest we imbibe copious amounts of alcohol and just wait for the inevitable blast wave.

1) I don't get the "don't watch the video" outcry I'm seeing literally everywhere. I can understand and respect any individual who doesn't believe that they can handle seeing that carnage. But for those who can stomach it I think there is value in viewing that footage for 2 reasons.

First, I think that reading about this type of tragedy online, or watching it talked about on news channels puts you at some degree of remove from the events. It's sanitized at that point and while everyone intellectually recognizes this as a problem, there are many people out there who are content to "thoughts and prayers" it. Actually viewing the visceral and horribly tragic event unsanitized may provide a more emotional connection to these events and perhaps get more traction to take meaningful steps to prevent them rather than just screaming about it or trying to prayer it away.

While I recognize that statistically I probably shouldn't spend much time worrying about this... I do actually worry about getting caught up in one of these situations. On multiple occasions I've caught myself wondering how I would react if a gunman started attacking while I was at the gym, in a movie theater, in a fast food restaurant, etc... I think seeing footage of this nature and really understanding how these attacks articulate, it just might do something to prepare people if they were ever caught in an event like this.

2) Gun control in the US is absolutely an issue, but it's interesting that this particular event occurred in a country without a systemic gun issue and I'm not hearing anything about gun control from the usual segments of society who chime up when this happens in the US. Instead they seem to be blaming social media for this one... it's leaving a bad taste in my mouth. This is multi-variate, systemic, social societal problem and it's not as easy as "gun control" or "de-platform" hate groups.

For your first point, it's traumatic to watch people actually be killed, and willingly traumatizing yourself strikes most people as a bad idea. You can't unsee things like that. Also, the perpetrators wanted people to watch it, so not watching is a small way people can deny them on an individual level.

For your second, you won't hear Americans talking about passing gun control laws over this because it didn't take place in America. Social media is being blamed because the perpetrators explicitly referenced social media figures and platforms as being influences.

I haven’t decided whether I agree yet, but Marlon James made a similar point on social media:

You know what? I want people to see that footage. I want people to see the malignant cancer that is white supremacy in action. I want them to see the only outcome of the mainstreaming of right wing thought (yes I dropped the “far”) and I want them to see the actual carnage these men and women wreak, the people they rip to pieces, instead of treating a massacre like some political concept to have an opinion on. I want them to see this man walk up to a wounded woman and finish her off. I want people to see what this white terrorist did to little children. Spare me the f*ckery about victims needing dignity. Victims need to not be dead.

“The Ghouls can find you anywhere, oh no. But not without an invitation.” -King Toad

For your first point, it's traumatic to watch people actually be killed, and willingly traumatizing yourself strikes most people as a bad idea. You can't unsee things like that. Also, the perpetrators wanted people to watch it, so not watching is a small way people can deny them on an individual level.

We also live in a world of embedded autoplay videos, so willingness may have little to do with it.

I guess it depends somewhat on how you watch it, but if you watching the video helps some algorithm to deem it popular and to spread it some more, then, ugh, that is hard to accept.
I can't imagine it being particularly good for anyones mental health to watch that crap. Let alone when it undoubtedly spreads to kids.

cls33 wrote:

2) Gun control in the US is absolutely an issue, but it's interesting that this particular event occurred in a country without a systemic gun issue and I'm not hearing anything about gun control from the usual segments of society who chime up when this happens in the US. Instead they seem to be blaming social media for this one... it's leaving a bad taste in my mouth. This is multi-variate, systemic, social societal problem and it's not as easy as "gun control" or "de-platform" hate groups.

Nothing is ever as easy as one thing. And of course violence with weapons can happen in countries that has gun control. The right wing argument, that bad people who really want to get guns will always be able to get them, is technically correct. But there is quite the difference between having 10 mass shootings a year, or having 1 mass shooting every 10 year. Accessibility surely matters.

Most Australians just want the videos shut down because it gives the terrorist a platform to be seen and heard and glorified by those who sympathise. Screw that. Shut it down because those kinds of people ought to be denied any ventilation of their views. It's not even a case of freedom of expression, down here we've moved beyond that point and we mostly understand you shouldn't let the weeds grow in the public domain. Australians don't need to be trained how to react in active shooter environments unless they're travelling somewhere these incidents are prevalent, it's on par with hysteria over flying vs driving in terms of probability of occurrence. I'd be more worried about getting hit by someone playing with their mobile while driving than scanning for exits and suspicious persons carrying a bag of weaponry. Nobody here is going to set up armed guards at places of worship to mitigate this risk, we need de-escalation and understanding, not escalation and hysteria. I'm mindful my comments may not hold for the rest of the world.

I haven’t decided whether I agree yet, but Marlon James made a similar point on social media:

You know what? I want people to see that footage. I want people to see the malignant cancer that is white supremacy in action. I want them to see the only outcome of the mainstreaming of right wing thought (yes I dropped the “far”) and I want them to see the actual carnage these men and women wreak, the people they rip to pieces, instead of treating a massacre like some political concept to have an opinion on. I want them to see this man walk up to a wounded woman and finish her off. I want people to see what this white terrorist did to little children. Spare me the f*ckery about victims needing dignity. Victims need to not be dead.

Some people need to see it so they can see first-hand the consequences of the ideas they're spreading, but the "outcry"not to watch it isn't aimed at those people, it's aimed at rubberneckers who might try to see it out of morbid curiosity or because it's newsworthy. It's also aimed at the kind of person who think it's just like any other viral meme like goatse or tubgirl and want to trick people into watching it.

Of course they are going to try to deflect, they’re directly responsible for creating this guy. The manifesto explicitly names Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens, among others, for inspiring him towards his terrorist rampage.

“The Ghouls can find you anywhere, oh no. But not without an invitation.” -King Toad

Latest news reports state there was a good guy with a gun (not in those words) arrested near the scene but he was trying to assist the police and was released. Honestly this is what happens if you expect the public to act as a police force; it just gets the LEOs nervous. The PM announced tighter gun controls. It remains to be revealed what firearms were used and how they got into the killer's hands.

Of course they are going to try to deflect, they’re directly responsible for creating this guy. The manifesto explicitly names Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens, among others, for inspiring him towards his terrorist rampage.

I don't think he actually likes Owens or PewDiePie (who he named-checked before he started shooting), but he's a product of Insanely Online culture, and the ascendant brand of reactionary politics that has helped make those people popular.

8chan shares responsibility. Weeds grow in untended gardens, and the gardener is responsible for their continued presence. The diet of sh*t the user population there feeds each other exists because the urine owner (thanks autocorrect) of the site is more interested in "freedom of speech" than taking a stand and shutting it down. The things said there should find no place to be said anywhere without swift rebuttal. He is complicit, as is every jackass which fueled this terrorist.

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"My love is for Lou." -- LiquidMantis
"LouZiffer is a gentleman, a rogue, and a fantastic lover." -- Vector
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Yeah, 8chan shares a huge part of the responsibility. I read through some the thread the terrorist posted. Pretty horrifying stuff - I think the only negative/disapproving thing I saw were a couple of posts concerned that it would be the end of the site. Otherwise everything I saw was supportive or neutral at best.

And this should also provide a very clear clarification to anyone confused why there was outrage at THQ Nordic's recent 8chan stunt.

Of course they are going to try to deflect, they’re directly responsible for creating this guy. The manifesto explicitly names Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens, among others, for inspiring him towards his terrorist rampage.

I don't think he actually likes Owens or PewDiePie (who he named-checked before he started shooting), but he's a product of Insanely Online culture, and the ascendant brand of reactionary politics that has helped make those people popular.

There is literally no line between sincerity and ironic trolling for channers. They just throw everything at the wall and whether it’s a professed belief or an ironic joke depends entirely upon the reaction it receives. I really have no doubt that he was a fan of Pewdiepie et al and was certain that he would be the final spark for a “silent majority” revolution just like half the other white supremacist terrorists since 2016.

“The Ghouls can find you anywhere, oh no. But not without an invitation.” -King Toad

The shooting: At least three people were killed and nine more were injured in a shooting on a tram in Utrecht, Netherlands.
The manhunt: Officials say they are looking for a 37-year-old Turkish-born man named Gokmen Tanis.

I've been there a few of times, such a peaceful city.
Holland as a country has the most warm and welcoming people. So sad.

More seriously, I totally feel you. I'm American and also get tired of so many things being about us when they're not.

We had to do something about our import/export imbalance! I'm not a huge fan of this American product, but I also don't really want to see it exported, either.

Seriously, though, a social media-fueled mass shooting is such an American phenomenon that it feels odd that this happened outside of the US. I bet there are a significant number of people looking up where in the US is a city called New Zealand.