I ask because what seems to be taking place in this thread, is people keep pointing back to works of the law when those of us who believe in works have stated repeatedly that we are talking about spiritual works, works of faith, works of Jesus etc. It as though some can't seem to differentiate between the two.

Jesus said greater WORKS shall ye do because I go to the Father.

Pretty plain imo that WORKS are to be done by us through Christ, yet many here seem to be saying we don't have to do WORKs.

So a simple way to end this debate is to ask all here this question

Do you believe we are to do the greater WORKS Jesus mentioned?

If you answer YES to this question, I don't see how you then can make an argument against what Paul, Bob and I have been saying. For if you make an argument against what we are saying then you are not differentiating between the two laws.

Scott

Those who are His are Annoited unto works, His works through US made manifest, for the fullfilment of His purpose, it seems babes are very much stuck in the Earth purposing themselves with the Literal..ie fundaments...I see a Cycle and progression

.

Not sure of what you mean bro, but I beleive that which is done in the spirit will be manifest in the earth.

Thank you. I have friends that exhibit these traits but according to many would not be considered christians. The latter part of verse 23 is the key that gets ignored.

Paul, did those friends atrribute those good things to Christ or did they attribute them not to Christ. Because if they attributed them to Christ then they indeed were Good things but if they didn't then they robbed Christ of His Glory and thus they were not Good things. Christ is the Copyright holder of all GOOD deeds that men can perform.

What this equation above means that when we have Faith and Good works we access Grace. And when we are in Grace and continue to have Faith + works we will Grow in Grace. And if we endure and continue in this process till the end, then we shall receive salvation.

What this equation above means that when we have Faith and Good works we access Grace. And when we are in Grace and continue to have Faith + works we will Grow in Grace. And if we endure and continue in this process till the end, then we shall receive salvation.

Paul

This is why the one that has much has more given to him.

You could call it the cycle of salvation--a whirlwind--the staircase to heaven.

Logged

trettep

Yes, Molly and I think if everyone thinks that way they will start to understand many things more that they read in scripture. We as man are always wicked creatures. This is why when Christ is alive in us - we are no more because we will no longer seek to perform the pleasure of our flesh that we did in the past but instead the lusts of our flesh will be overcome by the New man in us which is Christ. This is HOW we are saved (it is Christ putting down our lusts in our own flesh by His very nature in us). This can ONLY be accomplish by Faith. This is all logical and rational when we understand that Jesus Christ is the copyright owner of all good works. That is why this question of works is so critical to undertand.

I ask because what seems to be taking place in this thread, is people keep pointing back to works of the law when those of us who believe in works have stated repeatedly that we are talking about spiritual works, works of faith, works of Jesus etc. It as though some can't seem to differentiate between the two.

Jesus said greater WORKS shall ye do because I go to the Father.

Pretty plain imo that WORKS are to be done by us through Christ, yet many here seem to be saying we don't have to do WORKs.

So a simple way to end this debate is to ask all here this question

Do you believe we are to do the greater WORKS Jesus mentioned?

If you answer YES to this question, I don't see how you then can make an argument against what Paul, Bob and I have been saying. For if you make an argument against what we are saying then you are not differentiating between the two laws.

Scott

Those who are His are Annoited unto works, His works through US made manifest, for the fullfilment of His purpose, it seems babes are very much stuck in the Earth purposing themselves with the Literal..ie fundaments...I see a Cycle and progression

.

Not sure of what you mean bro, but I beleive that which is done in the spirit will be manifest in the earth.

yes bro thats what I reffering to ,through Us into the Earth, I just related Babes to thier starting place, young in the faith moving towards Sonship,..

Logged

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Yes, Molly and I think if everyone thinks that way they will start to understand many things more that they read in scripture. We as man are always wicked creatures. This is why when Christ is alive in us - we are no more because we will no longer seek to perform the pleasure of our flesh that we did in the past but instead the lusts of our flesh will be overcome by the New man in us which is Christ. This is HOW we are saved (it is Christ putting down our lusts in our own flesh by His very nature in us). This can ONLY be accomplish by Faith. This is all logical and rational when we understand that Jesus Christ is the copyright owner of all good works. That is why this question of works is so critical to undertand.

What this equation above means that when we have Faith and Good works we access Grace. And when we are in Grace and continue to have Faith + works we will Grow in Grace. And if we endure and continue in this process till the end, then we shall receive salvation.

Paul

This is why the one that has much has more given to him.

You could call it the cycle of salvation--a whirlwind--the staircase to heaven.

Molly, is what I'm saying starting to make sense. I'm trying to find the best ways to present this. I went the equation route because you had a good idea in putting it in that form.

What this equation above means that when we have Faith and Good works we access Grace. And when we are in Grace and continue to have Faith + works we will Grow in Grace. And if we endure and continue in this process till the end, then we shall receive salvation.

Paul

This is why the one that has much has more given to him.

You could call it the cycle of salvation--a whirlwind--the staircase to heaven.

Molly, is what I'm saying starting to make sense. I'm trying to find the best ways to present this. I went the equation route because you had a good idea in putting it in that form.

Paul

Yes, it's making sense to me. But, then, I like equations.

It's not something that I have thought about before, and it's a little surprising. But, I agree with you.

trettep

It's not something that I have thought about before, and it's a little surprising. But, I agree with you.

In a sense, I think you could say salvation is a dynamic process.

Great Molly, I may be bearing fruit! Of course all glory goes to the vine (Jesus Christ). You are right also - it is a dynamic process. Please read the parable of the pounds (talents) which you can find at Luke 19:12. When you read that you will realize that we must INCREASE.

It's not something that I have thought about before, and it's a little surprising. But, I agree with you.

In a sense, I think you could say salvation is a dynamic process.

Great Molly, I may be bearing fruit! Of course all glory goes to the vine (Jesus Christ). You are right also - it is a dynamic process. Please read the parable of the pounds (talents) which you can find at Luke 19:12. When you read that you will realize that we must INCREASE.

trettep

Yes that is technically true but our flesh still exists and may take occasion to become prideful if we say that to much so let's continue to give Christ that glory in us.

We haven't talked specifically much about the Holy Spirit and the role of that Spirit in this. I hope to start another thread soon about that. I want to talk about how a Word is the wind that transforms us.

Come on Molly..read Nats context post ..Tis the Spirit which RISES those words to Life ,many still see death and darkness, doom and Gloom...HE REVEALS these things ,and its always to His Glory, it ALWAYS goes back to HIM

Logged

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Thank you. I have friends that exhibit these traits but according to many would not be considered christians. The latter part of verse 23 is the key that gets ignored.

Paul, did those friends atrribute those good things to Christ or did they attribute them not to Christ. Because if they attributed them to Christ then they indeed were Good things but if they didn't then they robbed Christ of His Glory and thus they were not Good things. Christ is the Copyright holder of all GOOD deeds that men can perform.

Paul

So Paul . .according to you and this theory here . . .Mother Theresa that impacted the world with her outreach . . you're saying if she doesn't acknowledge God, or Christ as her savior . .all of those wonderful things she did were actually bad things???

Secondly . . . the recipe of righteousness . . .it doesn't start with faith for me at all guys . . .it starts with grace. Remember . . .man wasn't even around when the decision was made to create him . . .Grace ignites faith . . faith births response to that grace. I still don't think that the response of others should be what we are looking at in others. Not everyone's nature is the same, so even though two people may recieve the same exact salvation, their personalities will dictate what kind of response they will have to that salvation.

The purpose of knowing the fruit of another is not to judge whether or not there salvation is real . . .but that their message is pure . . .that whole thing is about discerning false prophets . ..not brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Come on Molly..read Nats context post ..Tis the Spirit which RISES those words to Life ,many still see death and darkness, doom and Gloom...HE REVEALS these things ,and its always to His Glory, it ALWAYS goes back to HIM

Are you saying that we cannot understand that, even on an intellectual level, without the Holy Spirit?

I'm not disputing that, I'm just trying to figure out what is going on.

Jesus said to the Pharisees--you slam the door to the kingdom in their faces--as though the Pharisees were doing it on purpose.

So Paul . .according to you and this theory here . . .Mother Theresa that impacted the world with her outreach . . you're saying if she doesn't acknowledge God, or Christ as her savior . .all of those wonderful things she did were actually bad things???

Mother Theresa is an interesting case. Personally, I find her a little creepy, even before she revealed that she hadn't felt the presence of Jesus in 40 years or whatever it was.

I am just grateful that I was not at her mercy in one of her hostels--where people lay on the floor dying.