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Can Mormons have “true” spiritual confirmation or perform “true” miracles?

Here is a peculiar problem with the “Mormons aren’t Christians”, “Mormons don’t have the same Jesus” , “Mormons don’t have the same God” stance that many Evangelicals take.

In order to remain consistent, If you believe in actual miracles from God, and you maintain such an exclusive stance, you MUST denounce ALL supernatural experiences experienced by Mormons (as well as Hindus, and Muslims) as false. They have to explain them away psychologically or, if they admit the claimed experience to be legitimately supernatural, those holding the “other Jesus” position are forced to use the “angel of light” card and call it satanic trickery. The existence of one true miracle or prophecy that occurred by invoking the “false” Mormon Jesus would essentially disprove the theory that Mormons are praying to a God other than the true God of the Bible. One true instance of the actual Spirit of God showing up during a Book of Mormon reading session or missionary discussion and indirectly leading someone away from protestantism to Mormonism and the theory collapses.

It seems like Evangelicals are in an awfully tight corner here. Especially since the nature of the most widespread spiritual experiences amongst Evangelicals are practically indistinguishable from those that occur among the Mormons.

Part of the reason I am a Mormon, despite my strong skepticism, weak faith, and heretical bent is that Mormonism allows for “true” miracles to be performed outside the church and true revelation to come outside the context of biblical religion.

Eric, Are you telling me that I should convert from Mormonism to your suicide cult?

Tim,

Well, looking at the post again, I agree that the “Mormons have another Jesus” theory does not require denying that Mormons have true spiritual experiences from God, but doesn’t it cast heavy doubt on it.

I think the less extreme, but more convincing point is that if the Mormon private spirituality is extremely similar to the Evangelicals private spirituality, doesn’t that say something about how God deals with both groups?

Being one of the few evangelicals who will admit to believing in some degree of individual soteriological inclusivism, I have no problem with the notion of LDS folks experiencing miracles. People lying about miracles and people experiencing them from other sources are valid possibilities, but I’ve had good LDS friends relate to me their experiences with miracles, and I really can’t in good conscience write their experiences off as from Satan or lies.

However, even if the majority of the evangelical world is guilty of having cornered themselves so that they have to make up excuses to write off LDS spiritual experiences, it’s not a one-way street. Mormons have boxed themselves in in other ways, for example, denying that all non-LDS Christians have the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Go ahead, tell me that I can sometimes feel the influence of the Spirit or “Light of Christ” but not the constant companionship of the Holy Spirit. I love it when Mormons tell me that.

im mormon and all who think mormons are false please pray to your god and ask beacese i dont like going to skill and being told to kill myself orelts someone elts would… if you pray truly you will get an answer of hope and truth

Whitmer picks up the account, “Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copyright, returning without any money. Joseph was at my father’s house when they returned. I was there also, and am an eye witness to these facts. Jacob Whitmer and John Whitmer were also present when Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery returned from Canada. Well, we were all in great trouble; and we asked Joseph how it was that he had received a revelation from the Lord for some brethren to go to Toronto and sell the copyright, and the brethren had utterly failed in their undertaking. Joseph did not know how it was, so he enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil.” So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copyright was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man.” – AN ADDRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, David Whitmer, 1887.

Joseph Smith was also interested in the second coming of Jesus Christ. So much so, that he tried to peg Christ’s return to a particular year – 1891. Smith said, “It is the will of the Lord that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was night – even fifty-six years, should wind up the scene.” (The History of the Church, vol II, page 182). Zion here refers to Jackson County, Missouri – not to Israel. Given the context in which this was said, the fifty-six year time frame would place the return of Jesus on or before February 14, 1891. Many Mormon periodicals demonstrated that zealous Mormons were anxiously awaiting the fulfillment of that prophecy. February 14, 1891 came and went with no second coming. It was truly a disappointing Valentine’s Day for many faithful Mormons. Strike three on Smith.

The test for a prophet is found in Deuteronomy 18:20-22. This scripture teaches that a prophet must be tested by checking his prophecies. Also. Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”This is not telling us to examine a prophet’s good works. Many false prophets have led moral lives. The fruit of a fig tree is its figs. The fruit of a prophet is his prophecies. One false prophecy (even if some true prophecies are given) and that person is a false prophet. It does not matter how sincere he or his followers are. It does not matter how often his followers pray or what feelings they seem to receive in answer to their prayers. He is a false prophet

If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. —Deuteronomy 18:19-20

Does this sound familiar? I would call this a true prophesy:
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son…

… nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 1 Timothy 1:4.

There has only been 1 religion in the history of mankind to be obsessed with geneology!!

Think about it, your eternal life is on the line and the real church Jesus started is still around, larger than ever!!

I have seen real miracles in Jesus’ name, as stated earlier, God can answer any prayer he wants. It does not justify Joe Smith.

Mormons run into no small difficulty in reconciling the great apostasy theory with Christ’s promise in Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

How could it be that Christ, who should have known better, would promise that his Church wouldn’t be overcome if he knew full well a great apostasy would make short shrift of it in a matter of decades? Was Christ lying? Obviously not. Was he mistaken? No. Did he miscalculate things? No, again. Christ’s divinity precluded such things

Does this sound familiar? I would call this a true prophesy:
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son…

… nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 1 Timothy 1:4.

There has only been 1 religion in the history of mankind to be obsessed with geneology!!

Think about it, your eternal life is on the line and the real church Jesus started is still around, larger than ever!!

I have seen real miracles in Jesus’ name, as stated earlier, God can answer any prayer he wants. It does not justify Joe Smith.

Mormons run into no small difficulty in reconciling the great apostasy theory with Christ’s promise in Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

How could it be that Christ, who should have known better, would promise that his Church wouldn’t be overcome if he knew full well a great apostasy would make short shrift of it in a matter of decades? Was Christ lying? Obviously not. Was he mistaken? No. Did he miscalculate things? No, again. Christ’s divinity precluded such things

Regardless of what you say or do – or any other like unto you, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will continue to grow and progress and will never be taken from the earth. That is a prophecy of Joseph Smith, which is continually being proven true day in and day out. “The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.” JS

It’s interesting because people that have a strong witness and are baptized and then after they have that witness seem to have to have everything cut and dried that they read or hear about. And if it isn’t definite if there is a question that can’t be answered, it seems to work on them in a way, so that it unravels what led them to their conversion. One this is for sure, you can’t reason away the testimoney you receive from the Holy Ghost, it will always be imbedded in you. There are many holes and many things scientifically that can’t be explained and yet we know that we can never explain everything. The book itself even with a genius is still an unexplained book as to where did it come from, and so if by faith we find ourselves wanting to believe it, the faith we need comes to us in a private way that is our own, our very own, and through that Holy Spirit, we can help convert others with the help of that book, and it’s not the book that converts it’s the Holy Spirit.

I found the blog above interesting and that some people do believe in miracles or supernatural things happening.
I have found that these things happen to the faithful, one does not have to be perfect. It seems that God protects them when they need help. There are also instances of people being thwarted when bad people do things to someone good. This is an observation in all religions, though I have heard of Mormons being called witches.
I think really the Mormons try their best to be perfect and many fall well short of that, but a lot are very good. Their souls get whipped up, they do the sacrifice and the prayer and try their best to show their love for God. They are told that they are Gods children and special in some way, that there are special promises and that they are specially chosen. They think that they belong to the one true church and one true religion, which is a psychological strengthener. They do have a very strong spiritual force or energy surrounding them. They believe if they pray that things will happen and strange things do happen every day. Looking at a different religion entirely, the Muslims are told similar things and have strict devotional rules though I do not know whether they also experience these every day miracles. Things that could not happen by chance.
It is also possible that Joseph Smith contacted some superior beings from another world and it is these people that are causing all the miracles to happen! These could even be the same beings that built the pyramids. Maybe they have invisible space ships above us as I write this. I believe that this is all possible. I do not actually believe that the book of Mormon is true and there are many things that Joseph Smith wrote about that seem odd. Perhaps he succumbed to the preacher adulation and just wanted to marry all the young women who spoke to him. Maybe these beings from another world did appear to him in the form of Jesus Christ and his Father. Though I always though that God himself coming down in that form was a bit over the top for anyone to believe. Maybe he was one of many Gods in the way that Hindus believe in Avatars. Hindus walk and talk praising God and feel that they are in constant conversation with him. They confess miracles to him and this is amazing they do not even go to church, but are a temple building people. Perhaps Joseph Smith had contacted the Hindu Gods through his Urim and Thummim. Maybe he had read about the Hindus valley civilization, an ancient area on the Hindus where everyone was perfect. There are even two races in India, the Dravidians (black) and the Aryans’(white), though the Hindus do not tolerate any religious difference between skin colour, they are equally good. He did perhaps do a lot of reading before he wrote his book. I think that the Mormons have very shaky foundations, but that those who truly believe have a blessing. I like to belong to the actual one true church that Jesus Christ started before he ascended to heaven.

I do not actually believe that the book of Mormon is true and there are many things that Joseph Smith wrote about that seem odd.

immediately follows this sentence:

It is also possible that Joseph Smith contacted some superior beings from another world and it is these people that are causing all the miracles to happen! These could even be the same beings that built the pyramids. Maybe they have invisible space ships above us as I write this. I believe that this is all possible.

I do not mean to upset the deeply religious and loving members of the LDS church. I think that their priesthood, devotion and organisation are good in general. They are people who are unaware of themselves and mostly unaware of their own religion. I do not think they are actually Christians although they think they are, but without all the extra religious books, their temples that they have, the cult like practices, they would be quite a good Christian religion. Perhaps for that to work one may have to start a new church. The LDS church is basically a religious cult. They are warned not to question anything or to read anything that is not authorised by their church as it helps to keep a closed mind. They are warned not to leave the church as they will go to hell and other things that block off their minds and frighten them into not leaving. They are given answers to all the questions that one might ask. They are cautioned against mixing with those of other faiths. They are told that studying is bad and that academics will not understand the Book of Mormon and associated books; that it is better understood by the less educated; that God prefers to give his information to the not so intelligent and educated as they accept the information more easily. Etc, etc, etc…. A lot of the earlier church writings, beliefs and practices are slowly and quietly being dropped because they are obviously wrong.

Please do not read the following if you have a sensitive disposition. I am writing in regard to the supernatural experiences. I have looked into the history of the LDS church. It does appear that Joseph Smith was a diviner and used a couple of stones in his hat which he called his “urim and thummin” to see things. I do not know whether this history is true, but it appears to be so. He was dissatisfied with the other churches and wanted to make his own church. He took bits of the practices of the other New England churches and other organisations and practices. A lot of his writings and ideas are said to be borrowed from other writers. He organised his church in the same style to the Catholics and has a “living prophet” at its head. He took the word of wisdom from the other churches. He used to be a Free Mason and has incorporated this into his religion. Their temples are Masonic and they follow similar rituals and wear Masonic clothing. The temples have the sun, moon and stars as their symbols. These are symbols used in witchcraft and other pagan religions. Some, but not all Masons are known to practice witchcraft or Satanism. The rights and rituals are all similar. I think the Satanist wear a rams head or goats head and make blood sacrifices on the alter. The Mormons stand in a witches circle (girl, boy, girl, boy) around or near the alter and just say prayers, though it is possible that they can turn this to other things. There may be Mormon priesthood who do carry out satanic rituals or witchcraft. He was also into clairvoyance and attended séances. This may be why the spirit world features strongly in his religion. He said that the “angel” Moroni appeared to him. Moroni is interesting. The clairvoyants and mediums often use Red Indian messengers to talk to the dead. I do not know what these people were like when they were alive, but their spirits seem to be particularly free. Joseph Smith claims that Moroni was a Red Indian/Native American. Maybe this spirit did appear to him, show him golden plates and help him to translate them. However I think that the book of Mormon was obviously written by a person who had a childlike view of the world, though he did a lot of research. The raiding of the pyramids by the archaeologist was in the news at that time and there was other research about the ancient people of the Americas. He spoke about mystical objects which is nice and I think that he should have written Harry Potter. He would have made a lot more money. He also condoned murder in order to steal a book. There was also talk about men going to the moon and people from other planets even in those days. He obviously did not like dark skinned people and said that God had given them dark skins as a curse. How awful! This was at the time of the slave trade. White folk liked to feel better about it by saying that black people were less than human and they did not have souls, or that they were animals and God had given them these people to rule over them and to be their servants. One must not forget that the Israelites were once slaves and were treated in much the same way for many years. They even tried to find justification in the Bible such as that black skin is the mark of Cain. No, there is no such nonsense in the Bible. People have dark skin because they lived near the equator for millennia and developed dark skin to protect them from the sun, other wise they would have had skin cancer and sun burn and would not have survived in their harsh terrain. The dark skin would also have helped the ancient hunter gatherers to hide themselves in the shadows to keep them safe from wild beasts and to hunt for food. Then there were the people that were pushed up into the northern areas where it was cold and had little sunlight during the winter months. They developed skins that let the light through so that they did not develop vitamin D deficiency which withers the bones. They need to go hunting in the snow to survive the harsh winters, having white skin would have helped and they grew a lot of hair to keep themselves warm. They were hairy white savages. Their skins turn brown in the summer to deal with the sunny summery conditions in the North, but the sun is not hot enough there to cause too much damage. I find that Mormons find it very difficult to deal with people with dark skin. They don’t know what to think because Joseph Smith has said that dark skinned people are Lamonites and have been cursed or have bad souls and they secretly think “I am better than you, but I must not show it” or “ I am talking to someone who has been cursed by God” when talking to dark skinned people. I have heard of a lot of the dark skinned people being teased very unkindly by white Mormons. These are perhaps the satanic verses of the Book of Mormon. They are there to bring discord and disharmony among people. It is worshipped by Nazis, Klu klux klan and other such evil organisations. It does not matter if they are not Mormon or recognised as Mormons. I have asked many Mormons what the book of Mormon tells them above what is already said in the Bible. The only thing that stands out is the issue about skin colour. One day the Book of Mormon may be used by such people, they are some of the most evil people on the face of the earth, to justify subjugation of the darker races and carry out the sort of atrocities that took place during Hitler’s reign and during the slave trade. Many are so grateful that George Washington was not a Mormon. I have noticed that Mormons need to look to other people for guidance as to the difference between right and wrong.

I have digressed from what I had wanted to say about the spiritualists and witches. They use “familiar spirits” It seems that the Mormons also use familiar spirits – witches will tell you that when a spell is being cast, the subject will feel a tingling sensation or a warmth. So if the Mormon missionaries come and talk to you about a warmth in the chest or a tingling you will know what it is. Any sensations or feelings like this do not testify to the truth of anything.
The book of Mormon is a hoax. It is very difficult to tell sometimes whether a work is a hoax or not, though the book of Mormon has a lot of clues. The experts believed that the Hitler diaries were true until the writers confessed. People even believed that the photos by two little girls with fairies was true, even though they looked like cardboard cut outs, until they confessed. I also think that the use of the name Moroni by Joseph Smith was part of his sense of humour, “Moron”-i

These are some references in the Bible about the things that Joseph Smith was interested in:
Deu-18:10. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

On the positive side the church is run by a lot of people who earnestly want to be good Christians. I do not believe that Mormons can call themselves Christians. I have often heard it being said that they have a different Christ or Jesus, to those who just believe in the Bible. Maybe this is true and there is something in their way.

The Mormons stand in a witches circle (girl, boy, girl, boy) around or near the alter and just say prayers, though it is possible that they can turn this to other things. There may be Mormon priesthood who do carry out satanic rituals or witchcraft.

Can a fake Jesus wash away the very real torment that comes from sin? Can he counterfeit progressive sanctification? Can he transform hearts and minds for the glory of God Almighty? Can he make new creatures in Christ?

If a fake Jesus can do all that – who’s to say that anyone is worshiping the legit Savior?

I have asked many Mormons what the book of Mormon tells them above what is already said in the Bible. The only thing that stands out is the issue about skin colour. One day the Book of Mormon may be used by such people, they are some of the most evil people on the face of the earth, to justify subjugation of the darker races and carry out the sort of atrocities that took place during Hitler’s reign and during the slave trade. Many are so grateful that George Washington was not a Mormon. I have noticed that Mormons need to look to other people for guidance as to the difference between right and wrong.

If a fake Jesus can do all that – who’s to say that anyone is worshiping the legit Savior?

I think this is a good point. But its hard to say which way it cuts.

I think the Evangelical position is that if you make it to heaven, you got the right one. If you don’t, all of the outward confirmation that you were on the right track on earth wasn’t good enough. If you are not following the Bible, they feel pretty confident you are on the wrong track regardless of the “might changes” that have been worked in you on earth by whoever you worship.

Of course the problem I have with the whole business is that if that God allows for all kinds of ways to confirm that you are on the right track, even when you are on the way to hell, then it seems like a queer way for a just and fair God to behave.

I am also grateful that George Washington didn’t believe in subjugation of dark skinned people.

Right? What if he had been a slaveowner? Where would we have been then?

Who knows, maybe something horrible like the Constitution making slavery legal and black people being counted as 3/5 of a person for Congressional districting, national tension over slavery, and eventually a Civil War.

It seems that the Mormons also use familiar spirits – witches will tell you that when a spell is being cast, the subject will feel a tingling sensation or a warmth. So if the Mormon missionaries come and talk to you about a warmth in the chest or a tingling you will know what it is. Any sensations or feelings like this do not testify to the truth of anything.

Once you start to recognize reptilian ‘traits’ you’ll notice it in everyday people as well…we’re a world that has become invaded by the Reptilian Race…While everyone awaits for an ‘outward invasion’ the silent invasion has already begun….they assimilate in our society by taking over ‘regular humans’ bodies and become church leaders, politicians, celebrities, whatever they want…most just assimilate in our society unnoticed by others as your neighbors, friends, etc…these are part of the “tares”

Angelos, Angelos, Angelos You really are like a babe on your mother’s lap when it comes to these subjects.

No temple is needed for something as simple and mundane as necromancy. Mormons perform three or four acts of necromancy before breakfast in the morning. . . truly child’s play.

Temples are primarily used for summoning dark natural forces to bring about apocalyptic doom on the world and provide opportunities for favorable PR for the Church by organizing relief efforts.
What? You doubt Mormons have the power to summon eartquakes, fire, meteors, and the like? Please consider that (1) that no Mormon missionaries were killed or harmed by the tsunami in Japan and (2) There was no damage to the Tokyo temple and (3) No Members are reported killed or missing.

Angelos, would you like to go a guest post on the true doctrines of Mormonism on our other blog, called Burning At The Stake? People there are less likely to have their feelings hurt. You would not have to pull any punches.