BYU Rape Myths

There has been push back among conservatives within the church (most notably the church’s PR team in their defensive reply to Salt Lake Tribune coverage of the Title IX violations at BYU) about the term rape culture as applied to the issues at BYU. These concerns stem from a misunderstanding of the term rape culture as well as (ironically) the prevalence of rape culture.

Rape culture is a term coined in the 1970s to explain the prevailing ideas in American society at large that enable rapists. Those who are pushing back against the term seem to think that the Tribune is using hyperbole or sensationalism in singling out BYU as creating a “rape culture” for women. This is a strawman argument, and those unfamiliar with the term rape culture should put on the safeties for five minutes and google the term rape culture before they come out firing. Discussing rape culture elevates awareness by educating people on the ways in which our society at large, as well as subcultures like BYU, enable rapists through rape myths, denial or minimization of rape, discouraging reporting and victim blaming. From an article at Everyday Feminism online magazine:

We know that at its core, our society is not something that outwardly promotes rape, as the phrase could imply. That is, we don’t, after all, “commonly engage” in sexual violence “together as a society.”

To understand rape culture better, first we need to understand that it’s not necessarily a society or group of people that outwardly promotes rape (although it could be).

When we talk about rape culture, we’re discussing something more implicit than that. We’re talking about cultural practices (that, yes, we commonly engage in together as a society) that excuse or otherwise tolerate sexual violence.

While 70-80% of campus rapes involve alcohol, this is simply because alcohol is a ready tool accessible to rapists on most campuses. What are unique tools available to rapists who target BYU students?

Honor Code investigations. The Honor Code requires that students report on other students who violate the code. This makes it incredibly easy for a rapist to retaliate as has occurred in the case of Madi Barney whose rapist’s friend reported her for violating the Honor Code at the time of her rape. Rapists only need to threaten to turn their victims in to the Honor Code office for rule violations to ensure their silence.

Feelings of shame and guilt. Because of our focus on chastity, it is easy for rapists to play on the feelings of being dirty or defiled that their act can create in victims. This enables rapists to discourage reporting. Rapists use victim blaming to encourage their victims to take responsibility so that they, the rapists, won’t get caught.

Respect for and female dependence on “priesthood.” I used to work with a horrible man who trolled LDS dating sites because, as he put it, once you told an LDS girl you were a worthy priesthood holder, you could pretty much talk her into anything since Mormon girls are told to honor priesthood authority. While I certainly hoped his view of Mormon culture was off base, I found it very unsettling that he held this view and used it to find easily duped younger sexual partners, luring them with the promise of a temple marriage. Guess what? He wasn’t even LDS.

Sexual naivete. Part of why my co-worker was successful was that the Mormon girls he sought were sexually inexperienced, a fact that he could exploit by getting them to do things they didn’t necessarily understand. Then he could tell them they were already compromised and unclean so they might as well do more because they would have to repent anyway. So he boasted.

Lack of female input in rule-making. Rules are often written from a male perspective, limiting women’s choices to make life easier for men. Dress code rules for women imply that it’s the responsibility of women to control male sexual response. The focus on women as future wives and mothers (roles in relation to men and family) amplify the pressure associated with sexual purity for women in a way that doesn’t apply to men.

Lack of male empathy. Since women are disproportionately victims of rape (nearly 4x as many women as men are raped), and since women are unlikely to disclose their rapes to male friends in the gender segregated cultures that exist within BYU and the church at large, it’s likely that women are far more familiar with the prevalence of rape than men are. And yet, men are the ones to whom women must go to seek pastoral counsel, even if they don’t understand what happened to them or that they were blameless. It’s easier for men to relate to the fear of false accusation than the fear of violent sexual assault, especially since they hope that rape is preventable if women only follow the rules. It’s no wonder that in a patriarchy like the church, there is a greater fear of false accusations than there is of sexual assault. [2] While following the rules of safe driving may result in fewer accidents, it doesn’t prevent all of them. Trauma can happen to good people, including those who follow the rules. Victims can’t prevent all crimes.

One hallmark of rape culture is the existence of rape myths. See how many of these are familiar from the back and forth commentary regarding the Title IX stories. These are just a few common rape myths. Some have a unique BYU twist:

Rape is just sex out of control. Rape is a violent crime in which sex is the weapon. Dominating and overpowering another person is what excites the rapist, not the act of sex alone.

If you don’t fight, it’s not rape. A rape is a rape, no matter how the victim responds. People respond differently for various reasons. Some people fight; some freeze up; some try to talk their way out of danger. Just as there is no single normal response to being mugged, there is no single normal response to being raped. When the Miracle of Forgiveness says that you should fight to the death rather than be raped, this makes every rape survivor suspect. If a victim lives to file a report, they didn’t do all in their power to avoid the rape. Ergo, if you survived, you weren’t raped. That’s a teaching I never want my daughter to hear.

If there’s no weapon, it’s not rape. Sex is the weapon. The perpetrator usually possesses greater strength or uses other tools to incapacitate or manipulate the victim into a vulnerable position. The majority of rapists are known to their victims.

Victims should act in a certain way. The search for the perfect victim is the easiest way to dismiss rape accusations and to discourage reporting. Requirements of rape victims include narrowly acceptable ranges for behavior and dress for the victim to avoid being blamed in the investigative process.

Women often make false accusations of rape to avoid getting in trouble for chastity violations. According to the FBI, only 2% of rape allegations are untrue. Given the difficulty of reporting and proving rape, and the prevalence of victim blaming, there aren’t many incentives for false allegations. A person would have to be a very vindictive sexual partner to falsely accuse someone of rape. Since chastity violations are self-reported, using an accusation of rape to get out of trouble is like burning down your house to get out of doing homework. This myth is particularly galling when you phrase it another way, a way that reveals the misogyny behind the sentiment: “She wanted it.” This is a myth rapists desperately want others to believe.

Amnesty for Honor Code violations would make false accusations of rape a “get out of jail free card” for BYU students, particularly women. OK, so this theory depends on an assumption that people who are in trouble for any type of violation at all, drinking, being in the room of someone of the opposite sex, being in someone’s apartment after hours, would use an accusation of rape against another person in order to dodge accountability. This is not the same thing as regret for consensual sex (the myth above). This is assuming that someone who did something that didn’t harm another person would then do something that does harm another person to avoid getting in trouble for the harmless violation. Is it possible? If so, we are creating some pretty horrible human beings with our culture of Honor Code policing.[1] But why report on any specific individual in that case? Why wouldn’t this mythical Honor Code evader simply make up a stranger rather than naming an assailant? Worst case in the amnesty situation is that someone gets away with a victimless Honor Code violation like curfew breaking or drinking. On the other hand, if there is a named assailant, there’s more going on than simple honor code evasion. Deal with the rape accusation as a rape investigation without the muddy waters of an Honor Code investigation. If the alleged assailant is exonerated, at least the academic threat posed by the Honor Code won’t jeopardize the integrity of the investigation.

You should forgive your rapist. When bishops and others focus on the need for the victim to forgive their attacker, they may be enabling future rape. Several victims at BYU reported being told that prosecuting their rapist would ruin his life and that it isn’t being forgiving. This downplays the importance for the victim to reclaim his or her power, an important part of the healing process. It also enables future rape by preventing prosecution. Forgiving shouldn’t mean enabling or excusing, not if we are serious about protecting people from rape. Rapists don’t go all Jean Valjean and treat this gift of forgiveness like the Bishop’s candlesticks. They punch the air and go on to rape again.

Following the honor code prevents rape. While it certainly eliminates many of the aspects of rape culture that are common on other campuses, rapists will find other tools in the existing culture, like those above, and use those to manipulate victims.

Victims put themselves in bad situations which is why they were raped. Rapists know very well how to manipulate victims using trust to get them into a vulnerable position in which they can be overpowered. The Honor Code is like a playbook for a rapist: trick her into breaking curfew, find a reason why she has to be in your room or hers (a sick roommate or wanting to talk alone about something important), etc.

If a girl lets a boy go too far, he can’t stop himself. This is insulting to men and a dangerous victim-blaming belief. Both men and women are individually responsible for their actions. No means no. See the tea analogy.

Rape is rare. In my experience, rape among Mormon women is no more rare than it is among women in general. I had many roommates at BYU and mission companions who were survivors of rape or incest, although I was not. (I did have a few near misses, but not at BYU). Although 1 in 4 or 5 women are raped, that doesn’t mean that 1 in 5 men are rapists. In fact, rapes and attempted rapes are committed by a relatively small percentage of men, ballparked at around 6%. That’s one reason it’s so important to take rape seriously and to prosecute rapists. There are fewer of them than there are victims.

BYU is responding by appointing a committee to address these issues. The individuals selected for this committee are cause for optimism. Rape culture can only be eliminated when we realize that it’s not a tacit approval of rape, but an underlying assumption that rape isn’t happening or not very often anyway, or that victims are to blame, or that rapes are preventable if you only follow the rules. Rape culture is the false sense of security that leads to more rapes happening.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well. . . 2 Nephi 28:21

Part of eliminating rape culture is eliminating the myths that allow us to ignore reality. While it may be gratifying to imagine we are safe, it’s far more healthy to deal with the root causes our culture that enable rapists to manipulate victims and get away with it.

I’d go back to the list of tools rapists can and do use and eliminate those.

We really need to stop encouraging tattling for non-academic violations and victimless Honor Code violations, full stop. Call me cynical, but I don’t see Gladys Kravitz as a candidate for future godhood. People should self-report by seeking counseling as needed.

We need to hear more talks about dropping the veneer of perfection as well as the notion that sexual transgressions make a person damaged goods for life. Elizabeth Smart has been a great spokesperson for this. I hope we are listening. We absolutely need to stop having our YW recite the scripture in Moroni 9:9 that implies that their virtue can be taken from them and is not in their power to retain.

Perhaps encouraging more YW to go on missions will establish better equality between men and women and less vulnerability to those who would use their priesthood to dominate or control women. We need to instill spiritual confidence and independent thinking in our women if we want them to be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with the men.

I certainly wouldn’t recommend that the church take up the mantle of teaching sex education, but I have been frequently shocked by the sexual naivete among young women I have known in the church.

Committees in church leadership need to have more diverse female representation, and there should not be a committee that sets rules for women that doesn’t include their input.

There needs to be an alternative for women to speak with a woman leader privately rather than always with a male leader. Women should be able to provide pastoral care to other women when requested. Forcing victims of sexual assault to seek assistance from a male leader is a real game of roulette.

This is not a comprehensive list of suggestions. If you were asked to weigh in for the newly formed committee, what would you suggest?

[1] My own experience was that young men used Honor Code reporting as a hostile environment weapon against women they found attractive.

[2] Somehow, we’ve deemed it reasonable for 3 men to show up at a woman’s home (to prevent false accusations), without regard to how strange it feels to the woman in question.

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Published by hawkgrrrl

Hawkgrrrl has been blogging since March 2008, publishing hundreds of opinion pieces. She is a wife and mother of three, a business executive, a returned missionary, and is active in her LDS ward. She likes oil painting, reading, theater, and international travel.
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I didn’t go to BYU, and it’s not looking likely that my daughters will go there. (Acceptance is currently at 47% and falling.) But this is not just a BYU problem, it’s a church problem. As long as the newsroom can claim with a straight face that we are the ‘gold standard’ on preventing sexual abuse, as long as it is not only expected but required for girls and women to answer questions posed by men about their underwear and sexual purity, as long as young women pledge to uphold the value of ‘virtue’ meaning chastity and are required to cover their shoulders before they even wear garments… I could go on… but it’s very clear to me that We Have A Problem.

I generally disagree. I have a sister who went to BYU and asked her opinion on it. She told me that the rules are there so that good righteous people can have an education at a college and not have to worry about the part scene and problems at typical universities. As long as both men and women follow the rules they have added protections and are safe. The rules are even made the way they are so that one cant accidently fall victim to rape. Its simple- if you dont want raped at BYU, follow the rules. The rules are there for a reason. That reason is to protect the chastity of the righteous. The rules do no good if one decides to break them and leave themselves in a compromising position. If one decides to break the rules how can they possibly retrieve the very protections that following the rules would have given them?

The topic isnt really about rape culture it seems but is using rape culture as a means to further a feminist agenda.

On bishops pushing hard for victims to forgive their rapists, I might be tempted to respond something like “Sure bishop. Just send your daughter on a date with Mr. X Saturday night and then on Sunday I’ll forgive him. Uh, bishop, are you ok? You suddently turned pale…”

love the article except the hearsay against the Title IX director. for me, it weakens the article to say “personally quoted” but not to really have personal quotes. are there any actual quotes or just second hand reports? If not, I think the rest of the article can stand on its own. Otherwise excellent, and a helpful way to show that the culture is often an unintentional result of current ideology and policy, as so many who are upset by the term don’t seem to realize.

This is such a good post. This information and analysis is so true and valuable. I truly wish that someone, anyone, with any influence or input in this situation could see it and take it seriously. Every Mormon should want rapers at BYU to be reported and thrown out!

I do think you are correct that following the rule REDUCE some of the risks, but they don’t REMOVE the risk.

What is the difference between being sexually assaulted on a date in a guys car vs. stepping into his room “for just a second”?

I just look and think if my daughter was assaulted when she went into someone’s room to just pickup a book, and then felt she could never tell anybody (even me as a parent) because she is going to have her college career ruined. That does not seem right. And what makes it worse is it leaves the pervert to continue to do this over and over.

I am more worried about the above scenario than one of my sons at BYU being falsely accused of rape.

While I do think some of the author’s points are a bit extreme – especially in regards to a few of the tools available to rapists, to shrug this problem off and dismiss it as an unavoidable consequence of not following the rules is wrong. I hope that your opinion is not a common one. Obviously this is a problem that needs to be addressed immediately. Hopefully this committee that is being appointed can come up with meaningful and necessary changes to reduce instances of rape and increase reporting so that these men that take advantage of women can be prosecuted and sent to jail where they belong. Students need to be a part of this committee as well because of their unique vantage point of the situation.

I am appalled that anyone, bishop or otherwise, would discourage prosecution because it doesn’t show forgiveness. That is absolutely wrong. Rapists should go to jail – period, regardless of the life-long consequences that he will face. The more people realize they absolutely will not get away with it and will have to live with the consequences the more they will think twice about it.

When there is a problem, especially one that involves victims, it needs to be addressed immediately. Downplay it and telling these kids to just follow the rules is wrong and irresponsible. In Jacob we are taught that God values the chastity of women. We need to protect women’s virtue and if it is taken from them we need to gather around them, show them love and support, and let them know they have not lost any worth and help them get through this, and go after the one that is responsible so they never do it again.

There definitely needs to be more training available to bishops so they can be more sensitive to the needs of people that are going through these painful experiences, and know how to address them correctly and in a more Christ-like way.

Rob, I think you misunderstand the definition of “victim.” A victim is someone who is innocent, who *has* been following all the rules, who then has something done to them by someone who hasn’t been following them. Sure, if every student followed all the rules there wouldn’t be any rape. However, a particular student who follows the rules themselves will in no way be protected by them as long as there are other students who don’t. In this instance, the students who aren’t following the rules are called rapists.

Think about it this way: A couple months ago I was in a car accident. I was following all the rules of the road. I did nothing wrong. By your logic, I should have been safe, and there should have been no reason why I was in an accident. Unfortunately, someone else ran a stop sign and plowed into me, totalling my car. No one in their right mind would blame me for that other person running a stop sign, or say that if only I had been following the rules better that I wouldn’t have been hit, because that makes no sense. Why, then, do we feel a need to do that with rape victims?

Outstanding post, Hawkgrrrl. Thanks for pulling together so many issues so clearly. Particularly the list of tools rapists might use at BYU is an excellent (depressing) one.

One minor suggestion in response to your question: You said the Church shouldn’t be in sex education, and I agree. However, as long as they (we) are going to talk about sex, for heaven’s sake let’s drop all our careful euphemisms that are so cloaked that half the time nobody knows what anyone else is saying. Let’s call body parts by their right names and call sex acts by their right names and just be open about what we’re saying.

I’m sure it’s comforting to you to think that but it is bullshit. BULL. SHIT. Even someone with as think a head as you have should be able to see that. Do you similarly blame victims of all other crimes at BYU for not following the rules? Because if one person follows the rules, it’s guaranteed that everyone else will? This point of view is just despicable.

Tragically, there are some “skeletons in the closet” when it comes to sexual violence against women. One of Brigham Young’s grandsons was found guilty of murdering a prostitute in his father’s apartment.

Not only are bishops pushing victims to forgive and not report rapists, but in Utah juries are failing to convict because they feel the admitted rapists are repentant. We have a very long way to go to protect victims in our culture.

This article is very poorly conceived. It’s premise is itself a strawman – ironically mentioned in the second paragraph. BYU is not a rape-prone campus in any reasonable sense of the phrase – and certainly not in comparison to other universities. Anyone claiming the opposite is either purposely misstating things “for a higher cause” (that’s dishonesty according to the intent of D&C 10), or is simply delusional. The term “rape culture” can be what you want it to be, but to accuse the Church or BYU (or men in general) of being insensitive to it is deeply dishonest. I have seen several misleading-to-wildly-overstated posts by this person (hawkgrrrl). I suggest you ignore her. She is not an honest observer of things the way they really are. Sorry hawkgrrrl, you need to change your ways and attitude. Very disappointing. I could do a long analysis of the flaws in this article, but leave that to honest readers to determine for themselves.

Paul, hawkgrrrl’s pretty good about lining up her ducks. I disagree with her on a number of issues, and she irritates me with her spin, but you can’t just dismiss her. She’s pretty logical and sources her arguments. Plus, it’s pretty arrogant to walk into someone’s house and tell everybody at her dinner party not to listen to her. This is her place.

I agree w Ziff, we don’t need to get into sex ed – but if we’re going to cover virginity before marriage we need to make sure we do it well. Talk about consent as a way to empower women to be educated to better manage those waters, and to know that not all sexual activity (wo consent) null and voids “chaste before marriage.” We have a perfect story in our own culture that would be easy to use (hint elizabeth smart).

The term “rape culture” (not scare quotes, but quotes used properly) carries an emotional charge that is intentional in order to attract attention to the issue, but it’s also a pretty unwieldy weapon. I don’t think those using it realize they’re chasing thieves from a china shop by wildly swinging a mace. For example, I happen to think it’s important to teach YW to be aware of the messages they send with their dress and encourage them to dress modestly. I’ve been informed that means I’m complicit in rape culture. Not much nuance there. Just swinging the mace. I think it’s more useful to talk about the the way modesty is taught or emphasized and the unintended effects it can have. Just one example.

Shame can be used to manipulate people. Rapists use it to their advantage. Shame only exists if one feels one has not lived up to standards or according to code. Therefore we should eliminate all standards or codes? Swing the mace.

If rape culture includes any characteristic of a culture that enables rapists, it seems that alcohol ought to be the number one thing on the list, at least when it comes to universities. Why isn’t it? Because drinking is a valued part of the culture on most campuses and essential to their sociality. Suggesting that alcohol is part of the rape culture is blaming the victim, because the victims should be able to enjoy that part of the culture without being victimized. It’s their choice. Yet probably nothing is more enabling to rapists there.

But BYU has an honor code that forbids alcohol, which in and of itself reduces rape culture. The concern is that the honor code itself is being used to enable rapists, itself being swung like an unwieldy weapon. That needs to be fixed.

One thing about false accusations — you’ve got to consider that they’re so rare because there is such a strong disincentive to report rape. When those barriers come down, when the environment does become much more victim friendly, you’ve got to consider those false accusations are going to become much more likely.

This whole issue has arisen because rules were intentionally broken by both male and female parties involved. Rape is not an issue at BYU where the female follows the rules. No, the problem is because rules get broken and then the victim feels guilty and afraid to report due to discipline for breaking the rules. Yes, they are still a victim and it is wrong, very wrong and needs reporting but the fact still remains that it probably never happens if she follows the rules.

It’s absolutely possible to follow the Honor Code 100% and still be a victim of rape. For example, a young lady can be perfectly sober and modestly dressed, alone in a car with a boy she is dating, at 2 in the afternoon. If she is then raped, how has she violated the HC?

Pete,
The fact is that this is an issue right now due to the fact that rules are broken by both sides and there is a reporting issue due to violating the honor code that led to the rape. Im not ignorant nor offensive.

What is the issue really we are trying to solve? We should be first and foremost concerned to further prevent future rapes from happening. How do we do that? We have to have a new approach at educating students about the rules and why they are there. We also should do a better job at making sure the rules are enforced and that people are watching out for their peers in following the rules. That right there will or should eliminate most of the problem. Students should be aware that because of our culture and society that they are more vulnerable to be victimized. The rules at BYU are very strict to ensure that students whi “choose the right” have an added protection from being victimized.

The other issue is the process involved for reporting accusations. I feel BYU is on the right track to help encourage true victims to come forth. However, the problem still remains that if an honor code violation has been made by the victim there remains the real possibility that they would no longer be able to attend the school or be under some type of discipline. The problem here is that the victim would feel less inclined to report because of the ramifications. I dont see any real way around this problem other than finding a way to go after the predators and possible future screenings to make it harder for predators to infiltrate the school. As for the victim, they need to come forth and educating them prior to it happening about how to come forth if it does happen may be the key. Yes, they do need to be aware that honor code violations have consequences but they should have the assurance that the school is most concerned about stopping rape.

Excuse me? Do NOT invalidate the sexual violence I experienced while a BYU student. I was in the middle of my shift at work — where I was breaking no Honor Code rules — when I was assaulted. Rape IS a problem here.

In spite of what Rob seems to think, this was the best written article on this subject I have seen. Very informative. BYU and the church would do well by taking it to heart. I loved the comment on Galdys kravitz by the way. That was classic!

BYU gal,
Im not invalidating anything. Rape is a problem. The issue here is if the honor code is the fault. I believe the honor code does more to prevent rape than at other campuses that dont have such rules in place.

Martin: “I happen to think it’s important to teach YW to be aware of the messages they send with their dress and encourage them to dress modestly. I’ve been informed that means I’m complicit in rape culture.” Yes, you are complicit in rape culture. Put another way, modesty guidelines framed as how women “communicate” to men objectifies women. When I as a teenage girl (lets go back a few decades) with no intention of seducing anyone wish to wear a tank top on a hot day, and I’m told I need to think of the messages I’m sending to dangerous men who want to harm me, that’s introducing a threat into something that is innocent. That’s making me responsible for the responses of random strangers. That’s implying that I’m partly to blame if something happens to me because I could have prevented it. Many many women have been raped wearing baggy, even unflattering clothing. Rapists aren’t incited to violence by what women wear.

I agree that the term “rape culture” is a shocking term, but that’s why it’s an awareness tool; it’s a reaction against the dismissive attitudes toward sexual violence. Bear in mind, it was coined in the 1970s, well before Law & Order SVU made us all more aware of how victims are blamed. The term is doubtless a strong reaction to the non-reaction within society toward rape.

“BYU has an honor code that forbids alcohol, which in and of itself reduces rape culture.” It redirects rape culture. It removes one very easy, readily available tool for rapists that exists on other campuses. We should all be grateful for that. But whether there are actually fewer rapes at BYU is hard to say given the “chilling effect” on reporting. I knew many women at BYU and on my mission who were raped.

We focus on families, and yet there is incest in some Mormon families. I had a BYU roommate who was told that she was vindictive if she didn’t forgive her father for raping her from age 12 onward. She was told not to report it, that he was a good priesthood holder and a good provider, that it was her word against his, that she was ruining his life. Her mom even sided with him. She told me once that she didn’t care if anyone raped her because it didn’t matter any more. She said anybody could do whatever they wanted to her. She didn’t matter. She received the message loud and clear. This is rape culture.

It’s very telling that our Mormon culture is driven so much by a fear of false accusations. Women fear being killed. Men fear false accusations. Which fear is taken most seriously? Who’s really important in our culture?

Rob O: “I dont see any real way around this problem other than finding a way to go after the predators and possible future screenings to make it harder for predators to infiltrate the school.” Many predators don’t actually attend BYU. Sometimes they pretend to. In the example of the man I worked with 15 years ago, he wasn’t LDS but said he was to gain the trust of LDS women. BYU is an open campus. Honor Code investigations can only punish students. As with any campus, my own opinion is that all rape investigations need to be handled by the police and never brought to the campus instead. However, in the case of Madi, she went to the police, and a member of the sheriff’s department retaliated against her for accusing his friend by telling the Honor Code office she had broken the rules.

Many women who’ve come forward did not violate ANY Honor Code rules and yet, an Honor Code investigation was opened and they were interrogated about possible violations. Why? Perhaps one reason is that the Title IX office wanted fewer accusations (the touted “chilling effect” on reporting). It’s less work and makes the school look better by hiding the problems. Another reason could be that up to a couple weeks ago when this information hit the news outlets, the Honor Code office and Title IX office were one and the same.

The problem with Rape Myths is that we want to believe them because they make us feel safe and in control. That doesn’t mean they are true.

Joni, footnote 2 is referenced in the “lack of male empathy” paragraph.

Kat, several victims reported private conversations with Westerberg. The CNN article linked in the OP mentioned it. A Salt Lake trib article also mentioned it (www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?fullpage=1).
The only quote corroborated by multiple people were the statements at the rape awareness conference where she said the “chilling effect” line and not apologizing for the honor code.

BYU’s handling of this issue will be very revealing. So many of us who’ve wondered whether to believe our leaders’ talk will finally know if it’s true. Time to walk the walk. And if that means having to report more rapes that Big Ten party schools, so be it.

Rob, Hawkgrrrl is pretty clear about highlighting aspects of Mormon culture that rapists use as tools. Being aware of those vulnerabilities is important, which is why she had a list of suggestions we could implement consistent with our beliefs to better patch the holes.

I’ve got faith that Kevin Worthen is sincerely approaching the issue (as I expect he had only improved since I knew him) but that does not mean that there is not an issue or that there is not room for improvement.

Following all the rules makes it less likely someone will be raped but it by no means makes it impossible. The only way to do that is to never go on a date or even better, never leave the house. I know someone who was raped going for a walk in the daytime. That’s a least likely scenario but it does happen. But a lot of rapes have occurred on normal dates even without drugs or alcohol being involved.

hawkgrrrl – “Yes, you are complicit in rape culture. Put another way, modesty guidelines framed as how women “communicate” to men objectifies women.”

Sorry, hawk, I’ve read many long and involved arguments trying to make that point (including by you) and it’s still hogwash. Besides, I don’t think modesty and rape have much to do with each other, unless it’s used as an excuse to blame the victim, but that still doesn’t invalidate the need to teach modesty.

But the article is about rape, and I agree that rape is a big problem and that if BYU is automatically starting honor code investigations of rape victims, that’s repugnant and must change. I also believe Mormon culture has issues that allow rape to be swept under the rug, and that needs to change. But if in your campaign to root out the bad you’re willing to destroy the good (or at least what I see is good), you should expect pushback.

I too know Mormon girls who have been raped. But let me point out that I’ve only been a close observer of two sexual harassment claims, both of which were false accusations (one was literally blackmail). In our area, we’ve had three reports of attempted abductions of middle/high school girls walking to/from school. Two turned out to be false reports by girls trying to avoid getting into trouble. I know one man guilty of sexual assault (not rape) who could probably have gotten off (it was his word against hers and she wasn’t considered respectable), but he wanted to repent so he confessed. Immediately the victim’s friends jumped in and claimed they’d also been assaulted, charges he denied. He wanted to plead guilty to the first charge and fight the subsequent ones, but his lawyer said no way. He’d lose. His lawyer advised him the other women were only after civil damages and had no interest in criminal punishment, and unless he wanted to spend the rest of his life in jail, he’d better plead so these other women could get their money.

I believe false charges of rape are a much smaller problem that actual rape, but that’s because it sucks so bad for rape victims right now. When that changes, false charges will increase, and whatever changes are made need to account for that.

I decided to read the single report quoted for the statistics of this article and found the link is to the Wikipedia page for /Rape Culture/ and not the report, nor is there a link from the /Rape Culture/ page to the report, only to the institution web page. You might want to update that so people can follow the stats.

Now the Stats. I can’t find anything in the report that resembles the numbers you are using. Maybe I could be wrong, but the report, which I did find, says that overall respondents were around 11% of the 150000 reported sexual assault. And as you noted, the large majority involved alcohol – 70% – 80%. You claim that is because a Rapist knows that’s the easiest way to Rape. I doubt this claim entirely – When alcohol is involved it generally means that BOTH parties are acting irresponsibly, under the influence of alcohol sexual contact becomes nearly impossible to figure out. That’s different from a grooming, or whatever, but I just can’t believe in any kind of spin that says Men are just waiting around for the right opportunity to Rape someone.

False charges, Actual Rape, vs drunken bad decisions – I’m sorry, I just can’t get on board with the 70%-80% of these actions involving alcohol is a Rapist Raping rather than two people making choices they wouldn’t sober.

I read the heavily biased conjecture link and I disagree with it. It basically trashes Mormon culture and blames our religion for the problem.
I want to address this whole modesty issue because people are getting it wrong.
Modesty is stressed to both men and women in our religion. We both have the same standard of dress for the same exact reasons. The reason why women are in the spotlight on this modesty issue is because the world is gravitated towards the sexualization of women and our western culture has wickedly decided to make women sex objects. The church, to combat this fact has a dress standard for both men and women so that we are not part of the world or how the world seeks to view us. This policy has nothing to do with dressing to control mens sex appetites as some have attempted to claim. Its about dressing in a manner that is pleasing to the spirit.

The author has addressed your concerns already. I refer you back to the document above that I hope you read.

Your comment about feminism also shows lack of knowledge. Best be getting informed about what feminism is really all about. My greatest feminist teacher was a male researcher who has researched many of men’s societal issues.

I object to any use of “rape culture” to apply to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to Brigham Young University, or to the men of the Church generally. It is unkind and untrue, and uncharitable. Indeed, it is a lie.

There is nothing in the teachings or practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that encourages or condones rape. There simply is no “rape culture” in the Church or in church schools.

Rob Osborn, have you read the For Strength of Youth? The modesty standards are not the same standard for both men and women. And I don’t think it’s the standards that are being questioned so much, but how they are being taught. It’s not the standards at fault, it’s the humans who think that they understand WHY we teach modesty, so they add their opinions. I have heard far too many modesty lessons that subject girls to feeling like they’re at fault for the boy’s feelings. It never mentions that in For Strength of Youth or the scriptures, however. Sometimes humans really screw up good things.

Thank you, hawkgrrrl, for this excellent blog post. I am hopeful for some real changes at BYU. Rape culture is certainly not unique to LDS culture, and it is undoubtedly worse in other places. That doesn’t mean we can’t do a better job. Certainly ecclesiastical leaders need better training on these issues. I shudder to think that some of the commenters here might serve as bishops and be counseling victims of sexual assault.

To quote from President Holland on the problems with how we address immorality (which both fights against and has shades of rape culture):

What kind of man is he, what priesthood or power or strength or self-control does this man have that lets him develop in society, grow to the age of mature accountability, perhaps even pursue a university education and prepare to affect the future of colleagues and kingdoms and the course of the world, but yet does not have the mental capacity or the moral will to say, “I will not do that thing”? No, this sorry drugstore psychology would have us say, “He just can’t help himself. His glands have complete control over his life–his mind, his will, his entire future.”

To say that a young woman has to bear her responsibility and that of the young man’s too is the least fair assertion I can imagine. In most instances if there is sexual transgression, I lay the burden squarely on the shoulders of the young man–for our purposes probably a priesthood bearer–and that’s where I believe God intended responsibility to be. In saying that I do not excuse young women who exercise no restraint and have not the character or conviction to demand intimacy only in its rightful role. I have had enough experience in Church callings to know that women as well as men can be predatory. But I refuse to buy some young man’s feigned innocence who wants to sin and call it psychology.

Indeed, most tragically, it is the young woman who is most often the victim, it is the young woman who most often suffers the greater pain, it is the young woman who most often feels used and abused and terribly unclean. And for that imposed uncleanliness a man will pay, as surely as the sun sets and rivers run to the sea.

Note the prophet Jacob’s straightforward language on this account in the Book of Mormon. After a bold confrontation on the subject of sexual transgression among the Nephites, he quotes Jehovah:

For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land. . . .

And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people . . . shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction. [Jacob 2:31-33]

1 in 4 woman are not raped on college campuses. This absurdity dates back to a 1975 Susan Brownmiller study conducted in an extraordinarily flawed manner. The study counted situations that do not even remotely approach the definition of rape as being “rape” in her study. The “victims” of the study themselves did not see themselves as victims of any kind of sexual crime. Were this true, this would mean that on American college campuses where we’ve had 30+ years of progressive administrators and professors, the rape rate is comparable to what we see in the war-torn regions of Africa. This number has also been stated to be 1 in 5, and maybe next year they will jump to 1 in 6!

If you want to bolster your argument, then first of all you need to understand that writing articles using afactual information will score you no points with the audience and will instead earn you their scorn and additional scrutiny.

The next paragraph talks about false rape accusations. The writer posits “According to the FBI, only 2% of rape allegations are untrue.” The actual figures vary between 2 and 8 percent depending on the agency performing the study, but one thing is certain. Women do lie about getting raped in order to escape accountability. Additionally, there is a large gap between victim blaming and due process. Anyone with any clue of the criminal justice system will know that the standard for conviction is “beyond a reasonable doubt”. In other words, people SHOULDN’T believe rape victims. The same standard is true of any crime committed against someone. Juries should start with 100% uncertainty and go up from there based on evidence. What this means is that a reasonable person should not have doubts about the guilt of the accused. Due process means respecting this standard. Moreover, there has been a recent trend in high profile rape cases that turned out to be totally false. Duke lacrosse, Emma Skulkowitz, and the UVA scandal all come to mind. The writer for the Rolling Stone article, Sabrina Erdely, went “rape shopping”, intentionally looking for the most outlandish and egregious rape case she could find. There wasn’t enough rape to fit her narrative, so she had to go looking for it.

The assumption that chastity violations are always self-reported is also false. Between roommates and guilty partners confessing to someone else, it would be foolish to stake an argument on this claim.

The writer then continues, “Requirements of rape victims include narrowly acceptable ranges for behavior and dress for the victim to avoid being blamed in the investigative process.”

There is a very narrow definition of rape. We have a legal system that spells out what rape is and what the punishment is in the same statute. Ambiguity is not something that our legal system holds in high regard. More to the point, I challenge you to find me a case where the guilt of the accused was determined based on what the victim was wearing. Legal convictions do not hinge on what the victim was wearing, so please do not trivialize the justice system that way. The victim could be walking down the street in the sexiest clothing imaginable and were they to be raped, the perpetrator would still go to prison. Stop repeating this as if it were a substantial argument.

When police give tips to women on how to avoid a situation, they are not blaming anyone for the rape. This idea needs to stop. Were someone to walk down the street with 100 dollar bills taped to their clothing in a rough part of town, they would still not be responsible for their robbery. Whoever stole from them would be put in prison when caught. What police want is for women to look out for themselves, because they don’t want bad things to happen to good people. Yes, there are rapists out there, and people need to protect themselves.

Do some more fact-checking, stop drinking the SJW/feminist kool-aid, and think about your arguments (you’re probably just parroting them anyway) before accepting them as fact.

Okay, let’s say the 1 in 4 figure is a gross exaggeration. Maybe the actual sexual assault rape on a modern college campus is 1 in 10 (less than half of the quoted 1 in 4). Then, let’s give BYU the benefit of the doubt, say they are twice as virtuous as a secular college, and the sexual assault rate there is a staggeringly low 1 in 20.

Rob, how do you think “hookers” deserve to be treated? Do they deserve respect? Should they be raped? Killed? Exactly what is the treatment you believe women who “dress like a hooker” should expect? Being paid for sex? Not being allowed to say no?

Believe it or not, there are many of us who believe that even prostitutes deserve to be protected from rape and deserve to be treated with respect.

Some thoughts: I was attacked by a drunk man, I was not drinking. I was in a swimming suit. (I just went swimming) It was the middle of the day. I got away, but it could have been different. Right after it happened someone told me that I needed to write a letter to my attacker declaring my forgiveness. (no chance)

I was not “modest” but I was certainly appropriately dressed, and it was a “modest” sim suit. alcohol was involved, but I did not drink.

I consider myself a 100% innocent victim. Pretending that following the rules is a fail safe grates on me a lot. I am about as un-deviant as it is possible to be.I have questioned my own innocence before because of the things people say. that alone is evidence that there is a problem in the way people talk about it.

rapists think they are justified often. If you justify it, and don’t believe the girls, you are perpetuating it.

and one final question. Is staying out late (for any reason at all) or drinking really on par with rape, to the point that it nullifies the rape? is that really what you believe? which is the greater sin? and which should we prosecute?

I didnt say they should be raped. Goodness! How are hookers viewed? As sex objects where you pay money and get sex. If we teach our children to dress like hookers we shouldnt be surprised to acknowkedge that many will see them as people who are sex objects who get paid to have sex with. Thats my point.

I just wanted to share a comment from Ardis on a similar post at BCC because it was so good!

“A few years ago Latter-day Saints — including me — fought against the term culture of violence to describe Utah society in and around 1857. Mormonism didn’t teach violence! Violent men were breaking gospel law, not living it! Gradually we came to understand that while, yes, murder, even of perceived enemies making threats, was contrary to Church teachings, frontier Mormonism did create an environment where a number of bloody, horrible murders occurred. Brigham Young did not say, “Hey, John D., take some friends and kill these travelers; Mountain Meadows would be a good place” … but he, and other leaders in Salt Lake and all along the trail, spoke publicly, repeatedly, approvingly in 1856-57 about cutting throats and forfeiting lives. He wrote letters that winter which preceded the travelers, telling Southern Utah men that if travelers caused problems, “leave no witnesses as tale-bearers.” When leaders learned what had been done, and by whom, no action of any kind was taken for a long time.

Brigham Young — whom I love and will defend as far as humanly possible — did not order these violent acts, but he, with others, created the atmosphere that let men believe they were doing what was acceptable, even expected. That’s a culture of violence.

If you object to the term rape culture, make the analogy. Whatever elements exist in our society that could in any way lead a man to think that any type of nonconsensual sexual behavior is expected, or wanted, or okay, or something he ought to get away with, or not that big a deal, or that shields or excuses a perpetrator from responsibility, or that faults a victim for not preventing the act, is rape culture, even when it isn’t taught by the Church or BYU, even when it goes as much against gospel teaching as murder does, even when a victim’s prior behavior is as unpraiseworthy as the behavior of the Fancher party’s was reported to be. You don’t have to advocate bad behavior directly to contribute to the atmosphere that leads to it.”

There is nothing in the teachings or practices of the Church if Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints “that could in any way lead a man to think that any type of nonconsensual sexual behavior is expected, or wanted, or okay, or something he ought to get away with, or not that big a deal, or that shields or excuses a perpetrator from responsibility, or that faults a victim for not preventing the act.” Use of the term “rape culture” with respect to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is unkind, untrue, and uncharitable — it is a lie.

I am in total agreement with April Young Bennett. That’s not something I can say every day. It is scary that despite such a well outlined document, there are people like Rob Osborne who don’t get it. It is not a ‘feminist agenda’ it is a FAMILY agenda.

Ji…the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and BYU are NOT the same thing. You can even read that between the lines of the church’s PR teams response. You must see the difference between the teachings of the Gospel and man-made organizations such as honor code offices, Title IX offices, and Police Departments.

As a doctor, I could be subject to high professional punishment if I gave confidential incriminating medical evidence about one of my patients to an honor code office. I would expect professionals working in the Police Departments or Title IX offices to demonstrate the same standards. I read with no small amount of horror that a policeman gave information about a woman’s sexual assault to BYU in violation of that trust. That is not consistent with the teachings of the gospel.

JJ, I challenge you to read the stories found in the following and then tell me again that there is nothing in the culture or practices of the LDS church that would discourage rape, domestic violence, or child abuse reporting. (I would include a link to stories from women at BYU who have been discouraged from reporting, but that apparently doesn’t move you.)

To get you started, I’ll share my own experience (one I have shared elsewhere).

All of my sexual abusers/rapists were Mormon. I was sexually abused by my LDS Grandpa starting at age 4. He had previously sexually abused my mother and aunt up until my mom turned 16 and told her bishop about it. The bishop did not report it but if he had, dozens of women would have been spared similar abuse at my grandpa’s hand. (Literally every female member of my extended family has been sexually abused by my Grandfather. Many cousins have attempted suicide, once succeed just last month.)

I was sexually abused again by a Mormon babysitter. I was 7, he was 15, and it happened as my parents attended all their weekly meetings (back when church wasn’t just on Sunday). Despite all of his threats, I got up the courage to tell my parents. My parents and our bishop decided that the Christlike thing was to just forgive the abuser and let him off the hook. I got the message loud and clear that my abuser’s feelings mattered much more than my own when I saw him passing sacrament. When I was 16 I got a call from the police who said that his sister had finally turned him in. Apparently he had sexually abused 13 other girls over the ensuing nine years since my abuse. All of this could have been avoided if the adults in my life had made the right decision to hold the kid accountable.

At 16 I was raped. By then I was thoroughly convinced that this stuff kept happening to me because I was intrinsically bad, I must have been asking for it in some way. But even when I begged and pleaded for my rapist to stop, to just let me go, he raped me anyway. When I told my bishop what had happened, he lectured me about how men can’t control themselves and how it was the woman’s job to be the guardians of virtue. He gave me a copy of Miracle of Forgiveness (which helpfully reminded me that it was better to be dead than raped), and told me to apologize to my rapist for ‘putting him in a bad situation’. That was the night I almost killed myself. (My rapist got to serve a mission.)

At 19 I married a return missionary, someone who had been a star in his mission field, district and zone leader, etc. He had been good to me for the two years we dated but as soon as we were married the abuse started. He became an alcoholic, porn addict and I believe that he felt so bad about himself that he took it out on me. I told my dad what was happening and he said that I needed to respect our sealing and stay with him no matter what. Three years in and my ex was getting violent with our new infant. When I told him I was leaving him, he violently raped me, reminding me that if I got pregnant again I wouldn’t be able to leave him. Though he continued to threaten my life should I leave, I did what it took to get away from him. Imagine my devastation when a smiling stake president told me that he had counseled countless couples, and he always told them to stay together no matter what. The only divorce he had every approved of was one where the husband chased the wife and kids around the house with an ax. I remember going home that night absolutely devastated and falling to my knees. I plead with God to set me free from my nightmare, but I resolved to stay if that’s what God wanted from me. Thankfully, a month later my stake president finally gave me ‘God’s’ permission to get a divorce. That is a month of my life that I had to endure further abuse because I had been raised since birth to always obey my priesthood leaders.

At twenty five, I was in graduate school and made friends with an exchange student from Portugal. He showed interest in the church and eventually flew up to Utah to be baptized by my dad. After he got the priesthood, he came back and it was shortly after that that he raped me. He left for New York the next day and a week or two later I got a call from a woman in NY who had also just been raped by him (he had told her about me as the one who had helped convert him, she was shocked to find out he had raped me, too.) She was a new convert, like our rapist, and had met him in Single’s ward. I was so upset that this man was using the church as a vehicle to find women to rape and I called my parents in tears. My dad said to me. “It sounds like the two of you are ganging up on the poor guy.” He then proceeded to tell me that I shouldn’t tell anyone about my rape because he personally gave the guy the priesthood and I would be risking his fledgling membership. He seemed very concerned that I forgive and not risk alienating my rapist from the church. He also kept hinting that maybe it was consensual and I was just imagining that I was raped. I get off the phone in tears. I had previously resolved to report my rapist, even though I had seen first-hand how much victim blaming rape victims who report have to endure, but now my very own father didn’t believe me– so what made me think anyone else would? I decided I didn’t have it in me to fight any more (I already had PTSD and was only two years out of a very traumatizing escape from my ex-husband) so my rapist went back to Portugal a free man.

Just before my parents left on their mission two years ago, I learned that my dad (who is a lawyer) was defending a guy from his ward for free; a guy who had sexually molested his two young daughters. My dad went off on how unfair it was that this poor man made ‘one mistake’ and so had to have supervised visits with his daughters from now on. My dad was taking the mother to court in order that this molester father could have all of his parental rights restored. Only now do I fully comprehend that my father’s need to defend rapists and abusers is pathological; growing up, my father was, in my eyes, the benchmark of reason and righteousness, I always thought I was the messed up one.

I have always tried to forgive immediately. I tried to do what Elder Scott (1992) counseled in his very damaging talk to abuse victims and bury the past. If the church never blames victims, it is funny that Scott would say the following: “At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help assess your responsibility so that, if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruit.”

I ask that you honestly and reflectively consider these stories and ask yourself if there is anything in LDS culture that would lead to emphasis being put on forgiving the abuser/rapist rather than legally holding them accountable. Please don’t imagine that just because you didn’t experience it, it didn’t happen. When you deny that there is anything in our culture that would lead to under-reporting of these crimes, you are essentially calling all of us who have experienced it first hand ‘liars’, and you are doing this based on no other evidence but your own limited world view.

cultural practices that excuse or otherwise tolerate sexual violence…a culture that perceives the needs of BYU to know of a sexual assault over the duty of a sworn officer to uphold a duty of confidentiality and due process IS, in this case, and example of rape culture in BYU. Otherwise, BYU would have not accepted or acted on the information until at least until it had been obtained in a channel that did not violate the victim’s rights.

What dont I get? I read the presentation and it really appears to me that she listed several feminist agenda ideals as solution to the problem which blamed men for the problem. But that conjecture doesnt solve the problems.

If we want to stop rape its about identifying the problems and coming up with real solutions and not set up a feminist agenda which only drives a deeper wedge into the problem and further divides lines.

The honor code does not protect rapists, it helps to prevent them. The problems stem in large part from students who break the honor code and shouldnt be part of the school system. This includes both males and females. Its obvious that moral standards by students have dropped and continue to do so. In order to protect the innocent more education, bettrr screening, better follow up and investigation needs to be implemented. This also entails thst a stricter code of moral conduct is adhered to by faculty and students and more gigilence is made to keep predators from engaging the community.

I truly feel saddened for your case. I believe your case is real but also very rare. The LDS church structure isnt set up in a way that harbors rapists and child molesters. The leadership take all sexual abuse cases very serious and have a zero tolerance for abusers. Cases like yours make it appear like every leader in the church is aware of rampant abuse and turn and look the other way. That is not the church I know. Every case of abuse in my neck of the woods that I uave been aware of was immediately addressed by local church leaders and law enforcement and they are no longer members and were locked up.

But, I am sure, ad in your case that it still happens that folks just turn and look the other way. But, that us not a Mormon culture trait.

what you don’t get is that no matter how many “rules” women follow we still get raped. and then people tell us to “forgive” having standards is fine, I agree they keep us safe, but if you do something mildly stupid like drinking, or staying out late, and some pervert rapes you, you can get kicked out of school because the Mormon culture is so unreasonable about such things, that people who have no business doing it, rat you out.

This kind of crap guarantees rape to be under reported, and makes a lot of innocent girls who did very little or nothing at all wrong, hurt, confused, and victimized all over again.

Following the rules never can and never will get rid of rape, and if guys keep getting away with it because they are “priesthood holders” who no one should question, the same jerk will keep doing it.

Women can be a part of rape culture also. For example, a large number of defense attorneys want older women on rape juries, especially if the victim did not show signs of a violent struggle. Why? The latter see themselves as the virtuous woman, such as President Kimball wrote of, a woman who would fight to her death to protect her purity. So the unharmed “victim” obviously . . .

yes, they can, and in the case of child sexual abuse, the child’s mother often is a huge part of the problem. I personally know of lots of people who’s mothers refused to help them. just typing this I thought of three who I know personally. and those are the ones who told me about it.

This is how even in the church we are part of a larger cultural problem.

Rape culture at BYU is partially due to the Honor Code???
I am not buying this. The Honor Code and general BYU rules certainly reduce the incidence of rape. In this specific instance, following the honor code would almost certainly have prevented the rape.

As noted above, the 1 in 4 women raped in college is a extremely inflated statistic. Joni is being very generous and putting the rate at 1 in 20 at BYU. Joni, you are still way high. I think it is more likely 1 in 100 or lower. 1 in 20 adds up to 200 byu coeds raped each year. That rate would be cause for massive protest at wild party schools even if many were happening off campus in Detroit, Chicago, LA, etc. This also means that 190+ women are keeping quiet about being raped each year. I am not buying this at all.

This is an excellent post. I would say there is very little wrong with what the Church teaches.

The problem is that there are predators out there, both at BYU and around BYU that need to be found out, arrested if they have committed a crime or just run out of town because they prey on naive young women, many who are away from home for the first time. BYU knows about these guys and appears to have done little to nothing about them.

The school has obligations it is failing to live up to. There is simply no excuse for it.

I’m disappointed in the inaccurate journalism in the depiction of Sarah Westerberg in this article–I looked up all the sources that hawkgrrl linked to and read them thoroughly. Hawkgrril said that “multiple victims” reported that Westerberg said most rapes are false accusations, but in the CNN article she links to (http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/29/health/brigham-young-university-rape/), just one victim reported it. And Westerberg actually denies the claim. BYU’s representative Jenkins responded to the claim: “I have shared this comment with Sarah Westerberg, and she has confirmed that there is no truth to this statement, nor has she ever said it to a student.”

I’m not saying that Westerberg didn’t say something horrible, but I am saying that this article’s description of her is inaccurate/unfair. I know it’s easy to get really passionate about this issue and make some sweeping accusations without seeing counterarguments; I actually agree with much of this article and just think that the sloppy journalism could lose some credibility points with people who need to hear the argument.

Shan, I’ve modified that section of the OP and added more sources. While I appreciate your added information that Carrie Jenkins says Westerberg denies saying it, I’m skeptical of her denial and consider the rape victims more credible than Ms. Jenkins who also claimed that they don’t sell caffeinated beverages on campus because “there’s no demand for it.” Riiight.

Given that Ms. Westerberg referred all rape victims for Honor Code investigations as a matter of due process, again according to what victims state they were told when they asked why there was an investigation opened even when they had not been accused of a violation, her denial doesn’t match her actions. Her actions, to me, speak volumes.

sexual assault does not equal rape. That is what the stats are talking about. Sometimes girls get away, sometimes there is just a sleazy guy that gropes girls who get to close, those things can escalate into rape. these things are crimes, and there are laws against that.
I believe the stats really are that high for sexual assault, and even higher for sexual harassment. I know a lot of girls who that has happened to. This is why it should not surprise you that we are talking about it. Denial is a waste of time. the church is not immune to these problems. just because you don’t experience it does not mean it is not there. I doesn’t take a feminist to see how much advantage men have when it comes to sex.

Shan, this article from the Trib (www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?fullpage=1) has 2 girls reporting conversations with Westerberg. The first is the same from CNN, which you noted that Jenkins denied. The second girl (called “Emily” in the article) said:

“[Westerberg] said … that’s part of the policy: Any time a sexual assault is reported, they have to send it to the Honor Code Office,” Emily recalled. “She said that her hands were tied by the policy. … I asked her, ‘I don’t understand what you’re saying.’ She said, ‘We have an Honor Code policy at BYU and we don’t apologize for that.’

“That killed me, because I’ve never broken the Honor Code, ever, and here it was being used to say it was my fault, what had happened to me,” Emily said.

Emily said Westerberg told her the Title IX and Honor Code investigations were “hand in hand, so whatever one decided the other agreed with.”

Westerberg told her, Emily said, she would receive help only if the Title IX investigator could substantiate her off-campus rape allegation — and that would depend on the defendant.

“If he said I had anything to do with what happened, there was no way to prove that a rape had happened, regardless of what the court said, and I was not entitled to any services provided to rape victims,” Emily said. “And they [wouldn’t] give me an opportunity to rebut what he said. They said if he said it didn’t happen, that would be it.”
***********************************
The statement that the Honor Code reviews go hand in hand with the Title IX investigation directly contradicts statements in the CNN article by spokeswoman Carrie Jenkins:

University spokeswoman Carri Jenkins adamantly defends the school’s policy and treatment of alleged victims such as Brooke, saying, “A student would never, never, never have an Honor Code review for reporting sexual assaults, for being a victim of sexual assault.” While Jenkins wouldn’t comment on any specific case, she said it would have to be an “egregious violation” that would prompt an Honor Code investigation stemming from details revealed in a sexual violence report.
*********************************
In the case of Madeline MacDonald (she’s the one who had the statements denied by Jenkins in the CNN article), she got access to her Honor Code file and saw that the date the file was opened was the same date that the Title IX investigation was opened. BYU said it reflects an overlap in software used by the two offices and doesn’t indicate the investigations were necessarily opened on the same day. (http://www.sltrib.com/home/3808891-155/byu-student-who-reported-sex-assault?fullpage=1) The alleged rapist was not a BYU student, yet MacDonald was still investigated by the Honor Code office extensively. That seems to indicate that she *was* reported to the Honor Code office merely for reporting the assault. She was eventually cleared, btw.

Emily – you are correct. But what I hear some people saying, “don’t mess with the traffic laws.” Where I think the analogy does not mesh, and the core issue, is that if you get rear-ended (the victim) you don’t have a law suit brought against you for what YOU must have been doing wrong. The police officer does not grill the person rear ended asking if the were going EXACTLY over or under the speed limit, if they were centered in their lane, if all their break lights were tested within the last week.

It is the automatic assumption that the victim has a significant fault in causing the accident.

Actually, Dr. Julie Valentine of BYU just published groundbreaking research for rape statistics in Utah. Sadly, the 1-in-4 statistic is true — not a conjecture, not a scare tactic, but a peer-reviewed statistic.

Bonnie, you get an Amen! from me. Thank you! I almost bit Rob Osborns shocking naïveté off with haste in a reply, but you did a much better job. You’re right. And Rob Osborn may possibly never have a date… or a spouse.

How about it only matters of its true? If she says she was raped, it’s true. Simply- her statement should matter! A criminal is of course going to try and hide what he did so he doesn’t get in trouble. Why are people not seeing this? If she reports the crime- it took her boatloads of courage!!!! Comsider how difficult it is to get a crime like this prosecuted, and give her SUPPORT! Her motive is to PROTECT everyone else in future from the same rapist. When is anyone going to begin applauding the victims for their courage to report???

CHLM makes a very strong point! Rob Osborn, just capitulate to reason. A rational reasonable man is more attractive than an irrational man who can’t understand logic.
Rob’s arguments do not even stand the test of academic rigor. He clearly did not read the article to which he commented either.

We’ll convict a person as a criminal on one person’s denouncenent? Bring out the guillotine — sounds like Robespierre is back!

No — as for all crimes, we need witnesses and/or evidence and a jury of the accused’s (not the accuser’s) peers. Due process and all that. We’re all better off for caring about process and the rule of law.

By the way, I could be in favor of the guillotine for real rapists, with witnesses and/or evidence — but not for date rape, where the accuser decides some time afterwards whether she was raped to the surprise of the accused.

Just have a comment about the terms being thrown around here. Someone I know said the reason women aren’t believed is because the accused have to be presumed innocent until *proven* guilty beyond reasonable doubt…

I asked Michael Austin, BCC blogger and University Adminstrator over IX at his school, about this and this was his response:

“people say that a lot in Title IX investigations–mainly because we live in a society that confuses “watching Law & Order” with “knowing things.” But the implementing Dear Colleague Letter from the Office of Civil Rights makes it very clear, in three different passages, that schools are to use the “preponderance of evidence” standard of proof rather than the “innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” standard that criminal trials use. Under the preponderance of evidence standard, both sides have an equal burden or proof, and the hearing board decides which one is more probable than not probable.

The difference between the criminal standard of proof and the internal investigative standard of proof is one of the main reasons that the OCR gave colleges the responsibility to investigate claims of sexual assault.”

The reason they are using Title IX at Universities to help clean up the problem of rape is that so many of the behaviors and cases are happening during this time of their lives and the university does hold responsibility for the culture and enforcement of policies in their community. As Kristine Haglund’s article pointed out that Hawk linked above, Religious Universities have an entirely different set of issues to work out than most universities – especially ones with honor codes and alcohol rules. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t issues.

Here are some of my favorites:
“Its simple- if you dont want raped at BYU, follow the rules.”

Hey Rob, how about this one: It’s simple – if you don’t want to be a horrible, sinning rapist who takes away other people’s agency at BYU, follow the rules.

“but the fact still remains that it probably never happens if she follows the rules.”
What about the fact still remains that it probably never happens if he follows the rules and doesn’t rape? But he probably won’t get prosecuted anyway, will he? Tsk, tsk, Rob. So much focus on the victim, not the rapist. It’s her fault after all, isn’t it¯(ツ)/¯

“I believe your case is real but also very rare.”
How would you know Rob? You’re being an armchair Sherlock Holmes here. Something tells me you aren’t exactly invested in really knowing the truth even if it was staring you in the face. But thanks for being a random dude telling all of us ladies how it really is out there.

And this one from a previous post:
“I dont wish to be understood.”
Ok. It’s obvious that you don’t wish to understand either. So what exactly are you doing here then?

Rob needs a time out. He is a negative influence on other men. He is also aggravating all women. No one wants to have a man like that helping to raise their daughter.
What if his daughter were a rape victim? Would he blame her or run after the perp with a lawyer and get a warrant for his arrest?

I wanted to share a little math breakdown that might help illustrate why women & men see this problem very differently.

WOMEN: For every 1000 women, 260 of them have been sexually assaulted. 60 of them report it. 200 women never report the crime, mostly due to societal disincentives. 1-5 of those reports are false allegations. False allegations very seldom result in convictions because so few convictions happen anyway–only 3% of rapes result in convictions. Out of 260 acts of sexual assault, only 7-8 are associated with a conviction (some have the same assailant). Around 250 women of 1000, 1 in 4, will know that the person who assaulted them got away with it.

If you are a woman, whether you have been a victim of sexual assault or not, you probably know many women who have been and who weren’t believed or didn’t report it. You are also very aware of the disincentives to report inherent in messages you’ve heard your whole life.

MEN: According to one study of male students at a Boston commuter college, 6% of men commit sexual assault. Out of 1000 men, that’s 60 men who anonymously admitted they had assaulted women. 63% of them had done it more than once, an average of 6 times. 7% of men are victims of sexual assault (many by other men), and they are also unlikely to report it. So out of 1000 men, 70 have been assaulted, 60 have assaulted others, and only 2 are convicted. 1-4 are falsely accused. 58 are free to go about their business and of that 58, 37 will do it again and again–an average of 6 times.

If you are a man, you probably don’t know anyone who has been convicted of sexual assault, and the people you know who have committed it probably aren’t telling you about it. Most women you know probably won’t tell you they were assaulted. The fear of being falsely accused probably seems more likely than it is.

Good grief folks. Perhaps you all fail to also note that I have said that we need go after rapists. Its funny you cherry pick only the statements you dont like as if that is all I said.

In the cobtext of the issue, I have been saying that rules are there for our protection. Everyones up in arms over the rules at BYU being the cause. I have only been defending why they have rules.

If you all think they need to do awsy with the rules then what? You guys think Im picking on victims. Let me be clear- I am not. I am only defending the real issue of why this is an issue. It is because people break the rules and are afraid to speak. If we are trying to prevent future rapes then we need better efucation, better obedience to rules, and a better screening process and policing to rid perpetrators. Its not rocket science.

Virginia,
I have a daughter whom I am teaching. We set rules and we ecpect them to be maintained. I had custody of a wild teenager years ago and we had rules. When she obeyed them she wad protected better. When she disobeyed that protection disappeared. We once set up a sting to bust her because she had broken the rules abd an online sexual predator was texting her. Dont think I havent been there. Rules are important and provide great protection as far as we can control. Its thus paramount that if specific rules are in place that they are kept. What more am I to do but make rules and try to teach why I make those rules?

Rob: Nobody says the rules at BYU are the cause of rape (I assume you mean the Honor Code rules). Rapists are the cause of rape. They use the rules to manipulate victims and then discourage reporting so they don’t get caught and BYU plays along by opening an Honor Code investigation if someone is raped.

Saying “it’s not rocket science” and that if people just follow the rules they won’t get raped is victim blaming. It has been clearly demonstrated that women who didn’t break the rules were raped anyway, and that BYU investigated them for Honor Code violations even when there was no reason to think they have broken the rules. That discourages reporting. Then BYU said they offer no apologies for the chilling effect their procedures have on reporting rape. That’s paramount to saying “We don’t want you to report rapes.”

Rob, although there are several things that you have said that I very much do not agree with, I do agree on a better screening process. Unfortunately, this would not do a whole lot of good, as people lie to get into a good school. Ideally, everyone would tell the truth and we could weed out the perverts and liars; however, short of breaking out a lie detector, I’m not entirely sure how one would go about making this work.

Unfortunately, I do not agree with you saying that these cases are rare. From before my baptism in the church at age 8, until well into my YW years, my older brother sexually molested many times. My parents and bishop were never informed, due to my feeling at the time as though my opinions and thoughts had no meaning. He then went on to BYU, served a fulltime mission, and graduated BYU with honors. He has since become inactive and indifferent to the church. I do not fault the church, but I do question how he was able to pass the intensive interviews in order to serve a mission. Obviously, he lied through his teeth several times and was never further questioned. How then, am I to trust priesthood authorities when we are told that bishops and stake presidents have the ability to discern truth? (Also, I accept that these figures are human and make mistakes, and probably saw nothing in my brother’s behavior to suggest that he was capable of sexual assault.) I have had to work hard to gain back any trust that I had in the system.

When I was 18, I went over to a convert friend’s home under the pretense of a graduation party. I was wearing a T-shirt and shorts and rode my bike. Come to find out, there was no party, he assaulted and raped me. Again, I never told anyone until well after the fact. Even when I told my bishop (who cared very much for this young man) he informed me that I had no grounds for a case, it would be very difficult to prove, and I should focus my energy instead on forgiving my attacker and perhaps it was partially my own fault for going over in the first place. Essentially, he was telling me to repent and forgive this person that had stolen something from me that I could (A) never get back and (B) that I had actually been told was so sacred that I needed to wait till marriage but now was being dismissed as no big deal. When I later personally chose to have sexual relations of my own accord, I was placed under the scrutiny of a disciplinary council and disfellowshipped for 8 months. Tell me then, how am I to trust that the opposite gender is equally blamed and given the same treatment?

The gospel is not flawed. The Church is, simply because it is governed by human hand.

While I do agree that predators use various means to rape including using the honor code rules in their favor, the rules were in fact broken.speaking about preventing future rapes from happening, it seems apparent that we need to better educate students as to the warning signs thst lead to an increased chance they may become victim to a sex crime. This is where a stricter adherrence to the rules apply. BYU, is not going to get rid of the honor code nor some of its investigations into honor code violations.

I think its wise that they assembled a panel to investigate and modify their system. I think in the end they are going to clamp down on the rules, especially with males to work at better eradicating predators. They also will probably try to develop a better process for educating students about being victimized and what to do if one is victimized. I think we will also see a tighter screening process and stricter rules or more enforced rules.

Whoville,
In the context of “rare”, I was referring to her specific case. Im not sure what frequency of cases like yours are but I am pretty sure its not a common thing in the church. I also font know what stats exist for cases like your accross the board in and out of all cultures, religions, societies, etc. I sm guessing though its frquency is tended more to the human worldly factor and not neccessarily a LDS problem.

So, when you say her specific case, you are referring to those that are exactly 100% like hers? I’m sorry, I felt that any sexual assault or rape stories where the female was largely ignored fell under the same category. Of course her exact specific story is going to be rare because its HER story. Its the only one like it because every story is unique. But if that’s what you’re basing your dismissal on, then, sure. Her specific exact case is rare, as is mine, and every other female on here stating that she has had issues in the church ignoring rape and sexual assault.

Again, the Church is not perfect! The gospel is, and that is what we strive to teach. The Church, however, is flawed and imperfect because it is run by flawed and imperfect men and women, no matter how spiritual they might be.

Rob O: You stated “I am pretty sure its not a common thing in the church.” That’s funny because as I read whoville’s story I thought “Wow, I know a lot of women who had something very similar happen to them.” I would be hard pressed to call it rare. Based on random women I have known in the church at BYU and on my mission, it’s far more common than I would have liked to think.

The church is not flawed in this matter, its people that are flawed.
As a Scoutmaster, I am reminded of the very strict rules about two deep leadership, no one on one contact, etc, etc and yet problems still exist in the BSA. Its not the BSA thats flawed, its the people. There really isnt a high frequency of sex abuse in the BSA but to hear some people, one would think the BSA is a hideout for every sex molestor and pedophile. Its just not the case. So too with the church, to hear some people say it, one would think every priesthood holder is a sex abuser. Its just not the case. Does it happen? Yes, but it happens everywhere also. My bet is that the frequency of sexual abuse is less in our religion than most others.

Hawkgrrl,
My statement of “rare” was in the context of her particular story where many many rapes occurred over her life and every leader did nothing about it. That was the “rare” context I was referring to.

Rob, I just stated that exact same thing. The only difference is the terms. You equate the Church with the gospel, whereas I see it as a separate entity. I see the Church as an organization, and the gospel as my religion. This is why the Church comes out with official statements and such and has stances on world and domestic politics. You and I are simply using different terms to denote the same statement. Imperfect humans run the Church. Therefore the Church is imperfect. A perfect God is who blesses the Church with perfect doctrine. Therefore the gospel is perfect. I did not say that every priesthood holder is a sexual abuser or predator, nor do I think that. However, your philosophy seems to be similar to a man I met while working who could not fathom why I carry pepper spray everywhere I go, even here in the “happy little valley” of Utah. I have an aunt who is head of social workers in this region of Utah, and there are so many stories that you don’t hear about that prove that not all is well in Zion. Sexual assault and rape are so much more prevalent in the LDS church than you seem comfortable admitting. I have no idea about other religions, because I have never been to another church. I would not be so foolish, however, to assume that the LDS church has less or more instances than them without factual evidence to back me up. On the flip side, I think ANY percentage is too high.

Whoville,
I fully agree that any % at all is too high. I also agree that the people who make up our church can be flawed and as such make the church appear to be flawed. Im a stikler for rules and administration processes and principles. I fully agree that BYU needs to do something with the process for encouraging reporting sex crimes. Theres a fine line there though between the schools right to conduct honor code violations and title IX protections. I feel strongly that the solution in large part rests upon working with students to not have rule violations to begin with. I know that when rules are kept it greatly increases the safety of all. It has the greatest impact for ensuring safety. No other principle will eliminate sex crimes as effectively as keeping within the bounds of rules. They are there for that very reason. If it just so happens that a high frequency of people break the rules then no principle could possibly protect them. Rules protect good people who make good decisions. Rules do not protect the rule benders. I find it of high interest that victims are afraid to report in fear they may lose their admittance to the school but yet do so in full knowledge that by doing so it puts others at risk too by not stopping the perpetraitor. Even if they had not been victimized, they still would lie about their honor code adherrance to remain at the school. This tells me that not much priority is placed on keeping the rules prior to becoming a victim by people who end up later as victims. This thus is an education and screening issue and needs addressed.

I recognize the need for rules. If everyone followed all the rules, all the time, there would be no need to have rules, but then there would be no structure and chaos would reign and we would still have to create rules. I think we can safely assume that people are going to break rules. That is inevitable, whether it be the victim or the predator or both. My concern is that these young women are being ignored due to a teeny mistake on her part (for example, briefly stepping into the opposite gender’s room to borrow some notes or a book) that escalated into full-fledged rape. So even if she goes and tells someone, she very easily could be turned aside and reprimanded for not obeying the rules. She might even be blamed for what happened because she did something that, with or without the Honor Code, is inherently harmless. But its her fault because she broke a rule for what should have been a split second. And now she feels guilty not just for breaking the rule, but this perpetuates the belief and feeling inside of her that its her fault she was raped. So now, she’s faced with a decision: Do I report this to the police and have to go through an investigation and potentially lose my opportunity to get an education because I had a momentary lapse of judgment? Or do I simply live with this because I don’t want to lose my education and scholarships and such? Tell me, Rob. What would you do? Don’t tell me from an objective standpoint. Imagine you are this girl and you have to fight this turmoil inside of you until it eats you alive. This girl is scared and angry and confused and sad and has no clue what to do.

He has not been polite; He has been irrational at best, as his arguments are flawed inherently.

For reasons listed below, I agree with you and I disagree with Rob. The young men who raped women at BYU, they are breaking most of the honor code by doing so. Also they are commiting a vicious crime which is cllearly a sin.

What she wore or drank or what hour she was up – none of those are vicious crimes, nor are they sins. At worst, these are transgressions of man made rules. At the core of this issue: they should never be any excuse for anyone to commit a crime.

Remediation of rules breaking is generally effectively dealt with by education and some remediation such as privileges suspended for a time, or extra homework assigned. Discipline means to teach. So teach with actions aimed at helping the student understand the benefits of keeping our agreements in educational settings where such agreements contribute to an environment of trust. Some rules broken should result in expulsion, such as cheating. Frankly if students don’t like the honor code, they can go to college somewhere else. It is evident that if they insist on living without an honor code at a private school, this is not the real problem.

There are other schools. I wish them success and happiness there. They will enjoy college somewhere else. I dont know why they even applied to BYU. It’s a private organization; no one is forced to attend.

I would say this about the importance of rules regarding honesty in academic work for example, or in rules regarding care of the school environment, respect for other students desire for a quiet nights rest ( if they threw a loud party late at night- that may be an honor code violation subject to fair discipline comensurate with the violation).

However none of those issues are sin issues, (except in the broader sense of the vice of dishonesty). I can understand a dishonest student being suspended or expelled.
However, rape is a vicious violent crime no matter how it is committed. It is about the intent to harm, to deny another a chance at consent, to take power away from another.
Students who rape should be expelled. They broke the law of the land ( constitutional laws). They sinned. The victim did not. Their victims should be supported and helped, not punished.

If the victim engaged in breaking a man made rule, then later on the victim should be taught to understand that attendance at the university is dependent upon agreement to a code of proprietary rules at that school. They can attend college freely elsewhere or honor the code and stay – going forward.
I would accept that the victim of rape has already suffered more than enough, that punishing her for smaller rules infractions is adding insult to injury.

If she wants to stay at school, it is likely she will I understand this and agree. Why not, after a school is supportive kind and caring after she is brutalized by another student? If BYU grants amnesty for smaller infractions before the rape the. she may feel a renewed desire to honor the codes of the school and enjoy the privileges of attendance, if her attacker is expelled. Victims are capable of self correction over honor code standards like curfew or dress code. Young adults are capable of learning and growing and moving forward from social experiences like a run in with an honor code over dress or curfew or coffee for crying out loud.
Address those issues in CONTEXT of their actual value. BYU should not lump these fickle infractions together with heinous crimes violating others’ human rights.
My point is, no one needs to learn and grow from a rape. No one should be raped. All rapes are caused by rapists- not anything the victim did.

Lastly, Whoville, may I just say, I am so so profoundly sorry to hear you had to survive such a lifetime of betrayal, neglect and unconscionable abuse. Your bishop was very very wrong. He clearly did not even take time to ask God for help to know how to help you. If he had, he would have done better than that. He also broke cardinal rules of the church- Bishops are instructed to call a hotline for help- to support the victims safety, and he can certainly report the alleged accused to civil authorities. He had no right to say to you what he did.

Virginia, I appreciate your words and agree with what you say. I actually attended BYU-I for a very short time when I was expelled for breaking curfew multiple times. Clearly, I was not prepared or desirous to follow the rules and do what needed to be done to maintain my place there. Now, 4 years later I am preparing to attend UVU in the fall of 2017. I have chosen a school without an honor code because if something happens to me, there will be no scapegoat for the one who thinks its ok to attack me.

“I find it of high interest that victims are afraid to report in fear they may lose their admittance to the school but yet do so in full knowledge that by doing so it puts others at risk too by not stopping the perpetrator.”

Dear rape victims,
Apparently you are not only culpable of your own rape because you may or may not have broken an Honor Code rule, but now you’re guilty of letting your perpetrator get away with it. Shame on you!
Sincerely,
Rob Olson

“The church is not flawed in this matter, its people that are flawed.”
“the people who make up our church can be flawed and as such make the church appear to be flawed.”

Rob, the church is flawed. It’s the Gospel that is perfect. God allows his church to be flawed, and that’s ok. But let’s stop pretending that the church doesn’t make any mistakes because it does and it has. There is beauty in that design. And mercy. And love on God’s part. But there is also room for error and we need to acknowledge when the church is in the wrong.

“They dont have a problem at BYU with rape by those who follow rules. The problem has arisen by students who break the rules.”

“Rape is not an issue at BYU where the female follows the rules.”

Rob, so much talk about rules. If only everyone followed the rules 100% of the time. Those darn rule breakers. They need punishment for even the teeniest rule broken, who cares if they have been physically and emotionally violated? Right?

Let’s pretend that you’re a BYU student. You are in a hurry and forgot to shave that morning. As you are walking to class, you are hit by a car who ignores the fact that you’re in a crosswalk. You end up in the hospital clinging to life, with injuries that will affect you the rest of your life. Someone at the hospital passes along your medical report to BYU Honor Code office, and it’s noted that you have facial stubble. Does BYU have the right and moral obligation to follow up with an honor code investigation due to your facial stubble? After all, you did not strictly follow all the rules. Those rules are there to protect you. If you had followed the rules, you probably wouldn’t have been struck by the car.

Maybee – Thank you for beating me to the punch and pointing out the Pharisaical behavior being exhibited. I was just trying to compose my thoughts on the subject. I was also think that Rob is also experiencing a “beam and mote” kind of moment as well.

There has been a lot said back and forth and a lot of defending of “The Rules” but nothing has been mentioned about the actual teachings of Christ or “Let’s be like the Saviour–What would he do in this situation.” I do know how he felt about the Pharisees and their wanting to follow “The Law”.

Rob – you mentioned early on how you called your sister (because she had went to BYU) and she said there was no problem. That made me think about a conversation that was had in a group I am a part of. A young lady received a call from her father–a newly called bishop–right after the BYU story broke to ask her if she had experienced any think like this when she was at BYU. She hastily said no and end the phone call.

But that is not the whole story. She, in fact, had been raped at BYU and had not reported it for the very reasons that have been explained here. When encouraged to tell her father, she explained to us that he would not have been understanding or accepting. That she would have then experienced the “what rules did you break, what were you wearing, what did you do wrong” questioning because that was the kind of man he was. She did not want to re-victimize herself. We gave her hugs and mourned with her.

Just because no female in your life is telling you that this has happened to them does not mean that they have experienced it. From what I have seen of you from your comments on this post and on others, I wouldn’t tell you either. You seem to be very rigid in your thinking and have no interest in learning.

Because to learn more about something and to have a greater understanding of what someone is going through, you first have to shut up and stop talking. You have to LISTEN to what the other person is saying. There is none so blind as those who will not see.

You seem to be missing the forest for the trees. You were called a narcissist on another post by the OP and I tend to agree with them.

Just because you think that following “the rules” will keep someone safe, doesn’t mean it will. It doesn’t and it hasn’t. You are being presented with many accounts (what has been shared on this post is only the tip of the iceberg) but you still want to just scream louder and louder, “But THE RULES.”

Also, anyone who thinks that “priesthood holders” wouldn’t rape anyone and that it must not happen as much in “The Church” is just plain naïve.

Whoville,
Women should feel comfortable coming forward to report infractions on their part and crimes that happen as a result. The problem we may be seeing is that we are dealing with a different and new type of predatory practice at BYU. This is an education issue. BYU simply is not going to get rid of the honor code because it protects the righteous. BYU isnt intended to be a party school, nor is it intended for people who are habitual rule breakers.
So, the real question deals with how do we better educate students to help prevent future crimes while still maintaing a strict moral standard. And- when crimes do happen how do we properly encourage the victims to speak and report while still investigating the causes which may include investigating honor code violations.

We simply cant just opt to have a full amnesty clause for victims because it creates a worse problem by teaching students that they can break rules without any reprisal. These are things students thibk about before they act. Amnesty is a slippery slope into allowing it equally to all which gives the green light to disobedience in general.

BYU has a right to know what the conditions were that led to the crime. If it is a series of rule violations then they can better prepare and educate so that future crimes do not happen. If the crime happened even when all the rules are kept then they can apply the same teaching and efucation to prevent it too.

It still comes down to the rules. They need to be in place to protect the righteous. No rules can protect the disobedience. If were having a general disobedience issue at BYU then perhaps the admission screening process needs to be changed. It appears that in general, this whole spotlight on BYU is about victims who break the rules and then bad things happen.

Just wanted to clarify a rape myth that was already addressed in this article that if girls follow the rules they won’t get raped: the very first article that the Salt Tribune released about this issue had one of the main featured stories about a girl who got raped who was NOT breaking any of the Honor Code rules. Educate yourself before commenting.

aaarrrghhh…….To bad we cannot edit post. On my earlier post (120) I left out one word that makes all the difference. The sentence should read:

Just because no female in your life is telling you that this has happened to them does not mean that they have NOT experienced it.

BTW, Rob, thanks for making me laugh with #121. You proved my point about not listing. Beat that drum. “The rules, The Rules, THE RULES.”

No one has ever said we should not have rules. Just being pharisaical about the following has helped to create rape culture at BYU and has enable those who are sexual predators to flourish.

We do need to spend more time educating our youth on things like consent, how to spot sexual predators, how to defend yourself. We need to spend more time training bishops and other leaders on how to handle dealing with this issue with more compassion. We need to be teaching our members how to have more Christ-like compassion when we learn of someone being a victim.

But we do not need more obsessive, pharisaical following of “The Rules”.

Rules are man made written by people to serve temporary purposes of group living issues in mortality.
Rules are not the same as covenants with God. Not even close. And neither are rules and rule infractions anywhere equal to the vices of sins such as avarice and sanctimonious self righteousness. Please everyone responding: if we collectively review Jacobs chapter two, we might make real progress .
There is no amount of rule ignoring or scoffing rules on a victims part that ever ever ever under any circumstances justifies our denial of care compassion and immediate offering of health care services to a victim of any crime.

Rape is a serious sin and a serious crime. The vice of believing a devilish lie that you are best served individually by taking someone else’s autonomy away, by invading someone personal space without consent, by raping them. There is no real joy to be gained. That is pure wickedness. Wickedness never was happiness.

Rape is a serious sin and a serious crime. It is the vice of believing a devilish lie that you are best served individually by taking someone else’s autonomy away, by invading someone else’s personal space without consent, by raping them. There is no real joy to be gained. That is pure wickedness. Wickedness never was happiness.

Thank you for making a fair analogy. I would like to submit one as well. I think you made a very valid point with the unshaven student in a hurry / car hit & run story. You inspired me. How do you feel about this one?

I once ignorantly told a man if my car was robbed or stolen and I had not locked the doors where I left it parked I would tell myself it was my fault because I knew I should lock the doors to protect my car from getting stolen, and to protect the contents.

He told me wisely that I was wrong.
I listened to him and he humbled me. His point changed my life for better. He was an officer of the law and he was well educated and trained in criminal justice, and had a theological degree as well. I respect his wisdom even without all that credibility.
Please listen to him.

He said that I should be able to leave my car unlocked even perhaps with concert tickets on the dashboard and jewelry or money on the seat; I should be able to walk away without locking it and expect to return to find it exactly as I left it.
Why? Because neither my car nor anything in my car belong to anyone else! Everyone waking by KNOWS it’s not their prospects to do anything with.

He said that if someone walked by and decided to take advantage of an easy opportunity to steal my car or rob me of anything in it , or if perhaps that person drive it just for a ‘joyride’ and dented it or maybe even wrecked the car irreparably none of that criminal’s behavior would be my fault.
Do we all agree?
I agreed with him of course .
That makes sense doesn’t it ?
He could’ve noted that the next step would be for me to call the police if this happened to me and my car. Next would be for them to put out an all points bulletin for my car and arrest the person they caught in it for Grandtheft auto . If the thief fled my car and abandoned it somewhere his DNA might be found in my car and that might lead the police to find them all the same. The thief, he would be charged with grand theft auto. A jury would likely find him guilty. Of course he would likely serve time in prison.

Now none of this would be a surprise to anyone- least of all to the thief !

Meanwhile I would not have a car for a while! Now perhaps my student community would be kind enough to say I’m really sorry for your loss. I’m really sorry for the scary moment when you couldn’t find your car where you parked it. Another student might volunteer to give me a ride to work or classes until I could replace my car. Maybe the University has a victims compensation fund and might even offer me a free bus pass.
Generally people would be empathetic about the grief over having lost a vehicle so important to my ability to get to school on time or to work on time or to get safely home on time .
Has anyone ever not been empathetic & compassionate and for the victim of grand theft auto ?
Seriously ?

Now why should it be any different if someone robbed you of your autonomy of your physical personhood? What if someone robbed you of the dignity of choosing how you wish in fact to express yourself physically and with whom you wish in fact to be affectionate .

That is a fundamental inalienable human right: to choose with whom we share our intimate affections, to choose WHEN and under what circumstances.
At BYU and everywhere we have a free speech right to say, ” I encourage unmarried couples to choose wisely when where and how they are affectionate and to reserve sexual intimacy for marriage” Yes, BYU has its prerogative to say, this is a standard our students must agree to in order to attend.
They can and will continue to do so. I applaud the effort.

However, this standard never ever negates our moral obligation to the victims of a crime to comfort and protect them from the criminal who violated their rights. This standard never implies we gain anything and resolve anything wih this issue by punishing victims in any way.

Rape is a sin and a crime; it is a theft crime; it is a sexual crime; and the victim is never to blame. Therefore it is not incumbent upon the victim to make sure that she is not raped. No it is in fact incumbent upon the perpetrator to choose to honor his baptismal covenants. The perpetrators of rape should have choose to treat others with respect and dignity. The perp should have honored the obligations he made to the university by respecting all the women ( & men) on campus and choosing not to have sex with any of them to whom they are not married .

Someone who overpowers you weather by physical force or mental manipulation or threats of harm to something you love or cherish later , without your consent, is still committing a crime at least equal to grand theft auto.
I rest my case. Feedback welcome.

Thanks hawkgrrrl and Mary Ann for the additional references. I think I was missing the background information about the contradictions between Jenkins and Westerberg’s words and actions. I mean, I actually know someone who had a similar conversation with Westerberg in which Westerberg said, “We have to report all rape accusations to the Honor Code office.” So I guess that’s at least 3 victims, including the ones in the articles you cite, that report hearing this. BUT I just wanted to make sure I get the facts straight (i.e. does Westerberg say this to 100% of people who come and try to report, or is she saying it just 25% of the time?) You know, stuff like that.

But looking to what she did in the past is probably less important than what she should do in the future, because the thing that really matters is that some percentage of victims are getting scared away from reporting. I hope BYU can figure out a way to make everyone feel secure in reporting. That’s my question for all of you now: what kinds of procedures or policies would make people feel confident in reporting?

Virgina – Thank you very much. I appreciate your analogy about the theft of a car. Unfortunately, some of the commenters have been so obsessed about an infraction of an Honor Code rule, they cannot seem to understand what is the greater “crime”, or rather, what is the crime and what is an infraction of a minor rule.

They might understand how someone would feel about a car being stolen and how outraged someone would feel. That it is a violation when someone is touch your possession–but that is just a thing not your body.

But they don’t seem to have a clue (or care) about how someone feels by being violated by rape. Have they every stopped to consider what rape does to a woman’s soul, how devastating it is, especially in a culture that puts such a high price on virginity. No, all they care about is some arbitrary rule that might have been broken.

They are also so very concerned about some poor young man you might be falsely accused of rape (gasp). Where is the concern that the young man broke the rules. Even if it was concentual, he broke the rules. It doesn’t matter that his life is being turned upside down by a false accusation, he should be punished. Kicked out of school. Excomminicated or dis-fellowship. He broke the rules!! Oh, wait. I don’t here them calling for any of that. Only outrage that a MAN was falsely accused. Poor young man, he’s suffered enough.

But the women—well, they better follow the RULES or else. The are PROTECTED if they FOLLOW THE RULES. If they are raped, we better investigate them because they MUST NOT HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THE RULES.

All Robbie wants to do is force everyone to be righteous. We cannot let anyone have their agency and learn from their own life experiences. WE MUST FORCE THEM TO FOLLOW ALL THE RULES OR ELSE HOW WILL THEY LEARN TO BE OBEDIENT. Seems like I’ve heard that plan before. Mormons have been accused of infantilizing their members and this is a great example of that. How can someone learn to make their own choices if we force them to follow a large set of rules and micro-manage them so that they have no choices, except to follow the rules.

I’m asking an honest question. I agree that she SHOULD be able to do those things, and that the police SHOULD respond afterwards, and that neighbors SHOULD be helpful with recovery — but I’m trying to be practical, too. That’s why I asked a question.

Yes, she SHOULD be able to do all those things, and the police SHOULD respond and the neighbors SHOULD be helpful.

We can be prudent and practical and practice basic safety, but we are NOT at fault if for some reason we do not. And we should NOT be punished if we fail to practice basic safety rules–whether it comes to car theft OR rape.

Bless your heart, surely you can see that asking your questions the way you did was an attempt for you to say–see, you do lock your car when you can, you do teach your children to practice safety techniques. A “gotcha” question, if you will.

But it’s still the same. We can obey the commandments and follow the rules. But even if we don’t, the fault still lies with the criminal. Full Stop. End of Discussion.

Virginia,
If you parked 10 cars around the city and half of them were locked and there was no visible valuables laying around and the other 5 cars were unlocked, keys in the ignition with valuables in plain site I can guarentee that almost entirely the thefts are going to occur in the latter case. Lets apply this to BYU.
Lets say that BYU made a major shift and decided to ditch all rules, the honor code, etc. Would sex crimes go up or go down? Obviously they would go up. Predators would no longer have to persuade girls to break the rules, they could just take them back to their place, have some alcoholic drinks and then easily take advantage of them. If no one is around, and both consented to drink and lose their minds, it becomes very hard to prosecute rape.
Thus, why we have rules and safety procedures to prevent instances where people can be in compromising positions where they may lose better judgment. One of the paramount issues people are choosing to disregard here is that this entire issue of why BYU is in the national spotlight is due to people making choices that go against the policies and rules of BYU that would otherwise protect them. As analogy back to your car-
Suppose the police chief of a private community came out and told people to no longer carry valuables in their car because of the theft issue and to always lock their car in a well lit area and that due to the circumstances with the crime problem cars seen parked with valuables in plain sight or unlocked would be automatically towed and the owner would be suspended their license for 6 months. Lets then say a person, in their rush, decided to disregard the rules, parked the car unlocked with purse in plain site and theft occurs. Are they more unwilling in this hypothetical scenerio to come forth and report the crime? Yes. Lets ask here what could have prevented the theft in the first place? Obeying the rules. If the car is locked, no valuables inside its automatically a major deterrent for the criminal to begin with. Apply this analogy to BYU. If people are admitted to BYU, they are duty bound to obey the rules and honor code. BYU, on their part are duty bound to uphold safety and morality to provide a safe and excellent school for students to get a great education. If a person is raped through no fault of their own because they followed the rules and honor code they should have no reasons to fully come forth and report it. But, if they disobeyed rules, they should know that the moment they crossed that line, before any crime had occurred, they were no longer eligable to be an honor student at that school and were now in a position where their actions no longer allows them to be a student in good standing. The problem here is that students knowingly break rules but do so in full knowledge that they are going to lie if needs be to stay in good standing.

I believe honestly that BYU must have a higher standard of rules and strict adherrence to those rules. BYU are probably already looking at all the rape cases and looking for honor code violations so that they can further tighten up rules and ways of greater enforcement of the rules to further protect innocent peopke from becoming future victims. If it means stricter curfew rules, greater sex segregation, etc, then so be it because we are seeing that people continue to break the rules and compromise their safety.

I am reminded of the strictness of missionary rules. Why are they so extremely strict? To protect themselves from being put into compromising situations where they may be either tempted or fall prey to being victimized. Now, we all agree that the strictness of missionary rules provide excellent results in preventing sex crimes from happening to them or by them. BYU has an extreme slackness in these areas in relative comparison. They also have a greater slackness in screening righteous candidates. But, nevertheless, as we move towards a greater strictness for behavior, we will see less crimes overall.

It should be noted that the victims she interviews hits many of these points we are discussing:
– they followed the rules
– they were too trusting of male authority. One of them was raped by a man who was wearing his garments, for crying out loud!
– they were less experienced / somewhat sexually naive
– they didn’t necessarily understand what happened to them. They were roofied and incapacitated, then one girl was held against her will.
– they were threatened with expulsion if found to be pregnant. How on earth is that fair or even moral to do do that to a victim of crime?

Elizabeth Smart is a great model of how to listen and let people tell their own story without jumping in.

And to Rob, finally: these comments are public record; forever on the Internet.
I’m not worried about what I wrote.
You may someday seriously regret having let the rest of the world see so much of your stiffneckedness to the point of your defending the irrational. You have been writing as if you comprehended little and barely glanced over most of the other comments here. That much is clear.

How very much you insisted on giving away by your own writing shocks me, considering how illreceived your statements have been by this small group of readers in two days.

Someday many more people will have seen these comments.
Now is a timely opportunity to retract your unfounded statements.

I do leave my car unlocked often. I figure, I don’t have anything in there that is of more value to me than is the freedom I value of practicing the courage to trust my fellow neighbors again . I live in New York in a tourist popular community.
I also tell myself that if somebody does need to take something from my car they probably needed it so much more than I did and I can replace material things. After all, they have much bigger problems if they steal from me than I do if they are so desperate they can’t even ask for help when they need it.

I was actually robbed in Salt Lake City while parked along the sidewalk between the conference center and the Salt Lake Temple while on vacation. In 2014 my car window was broken and valuable contents were stolen . My family and I were supposed to be headed to a visit with friends after touring the conference center. We called the police and said what happened; the police told us they could do nothing about it . In fact, no policeman ever came to take pictures or have us sign a written statement. It was as if they did not want a tourist family to report a crime that would add to the crime statistics for their city . We had to eat the cost of the damage from the loss ourselves .

We felt very disappointed and sad that our children had to experience this lack of civility from a thief and also an insult to injury : the lack of acknowledgment from Salt Lake City police .

We felt ever more grateful that after living in New York for 13 years our car had never been broken into although we often left it unlocked.
Our rental car was actually locked in Salt Lake City and the thief simply broke the window to get what he wanted .

This was a valuable lesson to our five sons who saw that when someone is intent on committing a crime efforts of protection by the victim are sometimes meaningless .

And to answer you specifically about your question regarding what I teach my children:
I have three grown up sons who are all in college & two younger sons in grade school. My children are law-abiding citizens; they care about other people and they don’t place a high value on material things.
Instead they place a much higher value on relationships of integrity. They strive to treat others the way they want to be treated.

Now this is the greatest reward I could hope for for my efforts in teaching them.

They are trusting individuals. This comforts my soul much more than if I had an inflated sense of false security because my kids were overly safety conscious & had instead all grown up to be mistrusting of society in general.

I like that they can trust; I like that they are smart enough to give people a chance to be trusted first, and then adjust their level of trust based on the level of trustworthiness proven by acquaintances. My sons know how to be trustworthy people. Notably that opens many more doors for them in terms of opportunities to be further trusted than there would be if they were overly cautious people.

They have built long term meaningful relationships with both male and female friends. The parents of these friends love and trust my sons. What more could I ask for? Icing on the cake: the oldest all became emergency medical technicians, made and followed through with volunteer commitments to serve the most vulnerable in their community. They remained trustworthy even in many dangerous situations. This is the hallmark of civil society.
May all our children find peace in their efforts to contribute positively to the safety of our communities. This is my prayer.

Thank you, Virginia. I love your insights and am so glad you commented.

I think the time is to ignore the Robster. Good Grief!!!!! The last comment was a dozy. I was shocked, truly shocked at some of the statements. He has some real issues and it’s not going to further the conversation in a meaningful way.

But if you read some of the other post, you will notice that has cut a wide swath in offending people. He even got one of the regular bloggers riled up the other day. This is what Mormon Heretic (MH) wrote: Truly you are an offensive person, and I’m sorry you felt the need to comment on any of my posts.

That right there sums it all up. He’s tone deaf and can only beat the one drum (MORE RULES, MORE RULES, MORE RULES). He really doesn’t have a good understanding of the Gospel or the teachings of Jesus Christ. Good Hell, he thinks BYU is too lax in its rules. I laughed so hard at that I almost fell out of my chair. Poor thing, he doesn’t realize what a joke he is. Thinks he’s righteous when he’s really self-righteous. Sad.