New Arena deal agreed to by city and Katz group:mod warning #616

Typical misleading post which does little to answer the legitimate concern. MSI is largely spoken and budgeted for with the City already locked into several projects. The city has also overdrew its annaul MSI portion already essentially to fastrack recently completed and ongoing projects. What this means is that future MSI amounts would be slightly reduced unless theres an increase in the economy. But theres more chance of a downturn in the economy.

Clearly the MSI amounts aren't likely to increase significantly or at all (May go down) and the MSI budget is presently spoken for. So where exactly is the MSI going to come from to front an arena build? At best this is a retroactive allocation. Which basically means the city is fronting the entire expenditure and that the city has to earmark its FUTURE MSI allocation mostly to the arena instead of other suitable community projects for which the program was designed. Basically robbing communities to build a downtown arena.

Wow...that's a really long way of saying that i should have included "IMO"...

Thanks Replacement!

How in any way was my post misleading anyways? He asked what may take care of it and i answered with my opinion. How about the lottery aspect of my post that you conveniently ignored? Was that misleading too?

One could easily say that your post was misleading for not addressing the entirety of my post. See what i did there?

Wow...that's a really long way of saying that i should have included "IMO"...

Thanks Replacement!

Not sure what you're saying with this but its a pet peeve of mine when people keep quoting the MSI fund like it magically solves the missing 100M provincial contribution problem.

A deeper look at how Edmonton has used, is using, and is projected to use the MSI funding means that some bigtime shuffling has to take place.

But any way you slice it taking money out of the MSI fund to allocate it to the arena is going to take away from community initiatives.

Lottery? Keno? That was the WC proposal. Frankly I'd be disappointed if the Cons ran with it. Just another debilitating form of gambling that robs money from families that could otherwise use it. Hey why not suck money out of another addiction. Democratic Government shouldn't be benevolent..

Typical misleading post which does little to answer the legitimate concern. MSI is largely spoken and budgeted for with the City already locked into several projects. The city has also overdrew its annaul MSI portion already essentially to fastrack recently completed and ongoing projects. What this means is that future MSI amounts would be slightly reduced unless theres an increase in the economy. But theres more chance of a downturn in the economy.

Clearly the MSI amounts aren't likely to increase significantly or at all (May go down) and the MSI budget is presently spoken for. So where exactly is the MSI going to come from to front an arena build? At best this is a retroactive allocation. Which basically means the city is fronting the entire expenditure and that the city has to earmark its FUTURE MSI allocation mostly to the arena instead of other suitable community projects for which the program was designed. Basically robbing communities to build a downtown arena.

First of all, it would seem you are unaware of the formula of how MSI allocation is determined. It simply isn't a random number inserted into a provincial budget, and the formula is guaranteed until 2015, coincidentally when provincial money for the project is said to be required:

Quote:

Each year, municipalities are advised of their annual MSI grant allocation following approval of the provincial budget. Amounts are determined based on municipal populations, education property tax requisitions and kilometres of local roads and include base funding for all municipalities and Sustainable Investment funding for municipalities with limited local tax bases.

That gives the city approx. $160+ million per year, and it is most definitely NOT all earmarked for capital projects up to completion of the arena project in 2015-16.

The idea that leveraging the MSI is somehow "robbing communities to build a downtown arena" is ripped right out of the pages of "How to Scare the Masses and Keep My Northland Perks" by Tony Caterina.

First of all, it would seem you are unaware of the formula of how MSI allocation is determined. It simply isn't a random number inserted into a provincial budget, and the formula is guaranteed until 2015, coincidentally when provincial money for the project is said to be required:

I'm perfectly aware of the formula, what projects are ongoing, and what community projects and community endeavors are typically funded. I'm also aware Edmonton fast tracked in the fund as they chose to use more of their allocation in recent funding years. Meaning less MSI for upcoming years.

You may do well to read this blog: With the blogger actually being an ardent Pro arena, pro downtown supporter who is questioning this MSI use.

I'm perfectly aware of the formula, what projects are ongoing, and what community projects and community endeavors are typically funded. I'm also aware Edmonton is presently overdrafted in the fund as they chose to use more of their allocation in recent funding years.

What amount would you think is available that is not presently projected, planned.

I'm perfectly aware of the formula, what projects are ongoing, and what community projects and community endeavors are typically funded. I'm also aware Edmonton is presently overdrafted in the fund as they chose to use more of their allocation in recent funding years.

What amount would you think is available that is not presently projected, planned.

WEll lets see, community rec centers, libraries, fitness centers vs Pro Hockey arena for richstars.
I wonder where I'd rather see the money go. Helping all families establish healthy physical lives and pursuits or funding a Pro Arena where only the wealthy can attend.

You see this here is misleading Replacement. How many days of the year are the Oilers actually going to be using the new arena, and how many days out of the year will it be used for concerts and other events? I can guarantee you that the Oilers will be using it far less than it will be used for other events. It's an arena first, and a hockey arena second - yes the Oilers are the primary (permanent) tenants, but to so disingenuously disregard what the arena will be used for 75% of the time (just a figure off the top of the head mind you - "IMO" you might say), is well...misleading.

Anybody looking at those options and noting that option B, and C, the dogfood versions, are somehow costing more should perhaps pause for thought and wonder how the whole magical pricetag for arena was arrived at in the first place.

Those price guesstimates are the biggest load of crap I've seen yet in this unending saga which is saying something.

City administration also presented Council with 2 alternative designs: one with a pedestrian link over 104 Avenue instead of the Wintergarden, and the second with no pedestrian link or Wintergarden. Neither of these options included a private sector partner or confirmed tenant.

I initially had the same reaction as you, but a little reading into the matter brings some light. It appears that the latter two were suggestions brought forward by the city. The cost to the city would be greater for the last two options it appears, because they would be funding the arena themselves (ie. Katz as tenant, but not major contributor to the project).
As I understand it, option one would still cost more over-all, but the burden to the city would be less because of "private sector partners" (Katz and WAM).
At least that's my take.

You see this here is misleading Replacement. How many days of the year are the Oilers actually going to be using the new arena, and how many days out of the year will it be used for concerts and other events? I can guarantee you that the Oilers will be using it far less than it will be used for other events. It's an arena first, and a hockey arena second - yes the Oilers are the primary (permanent) tenants, but to so disingenuously disregard what the arena will be used for 75% of the time (just a figure off the top of the head mind you - "IMO" you might say), is well...misleading.

Whos the anchor tenant? Lets see, Oilers. With expected playoffs could be something like 60dates/year. You're trying to state this is only 25% of the pie?

Now consider that Rexall will still be operating and likely the lower overhead, lower ticket price, similar attendance type facility. Presumably a healthy amount of acts are still going to be going to Rexall, one of the more successful arenas in the world and operated by Northlands who would have done business with the respective promoters for decades.

Meanwhile Katz has no such concert industry ties, the one he tied his wagon to went under, and who's he gonna call for concert connections. Northlands?

Lets just say the new arena does manage to land another 50 concerts/year. Ticket prices won't dip under 100bucks for Oiler games and I doubt they dip much for concerts.

IF... the Rush or Oil Kings play at the new barn that will be the only affordable entertainment happening there.

I've said along time, and people seem not to believe me, but with all surcharges and ticket tax prices at the new rink will be prohibitively expensive for most families.

I don't have a horse in this race as I won't going anyway. Most pop entertainment these days being just garbage. Doesn't much matter what event, most of it being a mindless exorbitant cash grab of no real value. Although that fleecing never seems to get old.

Whos the anchor tenant? Lets see, Oilers. With expected playoffs could be something like 60dates/year.

Now consider that Rexall will still be operating and likely the lower overhead, lower ticket price, similar attendance type facility. Presumably a healthy amount of acts are still going to be going to Rexall, one of the more successful arenas in the world and operated by Northlands who would have done business with the respective promoters for decades.

Meanwhile Katz has no such concert industry ties, the one he tied his wagon to went under, and who's he gonna call for concert connections. Northlands?

Lets just say the new arena does manage to land another 50 concerts/year. Ticket prices won't dip under 100bucks for Oiler games and I doubt they dip much for concerts.

IF... the Rush or Oil Kings play at the new barn that will be the only affordable entertainment happening there.

I've said along time, and people seem not to believe me, but with all surcharges and ticket tax prices at the new rink will be prohibitively expensive for most families.

I don't have a horse in this race as I won't going anyway. Most pop entertainment these days being just garbage.

Ok, so Oprah comes to town or maybe ACDC and they will want to play in Norhtlands rather than the new arena.....because Northlands has a good thing going. Ummm i don't think so Replacement. They'll go to the new arena because they have a choice. The sound will be better, the facility better overall, and it will seat more. ACDC will still sell out two days in a row anyways. The only reason Northlands has been so successful is because it's the only choice for some acts between Calgary and Edmonton (the Saddledome not being equipped to handle such shows). The Northlands rink has it's days numbered - book it, unless they downsize the seating to around 10,000 and focus on that sized market. Can anyone guess where the money will come for those renos? It won't be from Northlands, i'll tell you that.

You're showing a terrible lack of common sense here in beating a Northlands drum. Not to mention your age with your pop music comment.

I'm perfectly aware of the formula, what projects are ongoing, and what community projects and community endeavors are typically funded. I'm also aware Edmonton fast tracked in the fund as they chose to use more of their allocation in recent funding years. Meaning less MSI for upcoming years.

You may do well to read this blog: With the blogger actually being an ardent Pro arena, pro downtown supporter who is questioning this MSI use.

I wonder where I'd rather see the money go. Helping all families establish healthy physical lives and pursuits or funding a Pro Arena where only the wealthy can attend.

Libraries and rec centers? Ever go the library anymore? You'd be the only one in there. The city already has plenty of recreational facilities, outdoor rinks on every corner, new playgrounds in damn near every schoolground... Let's not pretend Edmonton is Detroit.

Only the wealthy can afford to buy season tickets perhaps, but you don't need to be loaded to go to a few games a year. Not to mention concerts and other events.

Ok, so Oprah comes to town or maybe ACDC and they will want to play in Norhtlands rather than the new arena.....because Northlands has a good thing going. Ummm i don't think so Replacement. They'll go to the new arena because they have a choice. The sound will be better, the facility better overall, and it will seat more. ACDC will still sell out two days in a row anyways. The only reason Northlands has been so successful is because it's the only choice for some acts between Calgary and Edmonton (the Saddledome not being equipped to handle such shows). The Northlands rink has it's days numbered - book it, unless they downsize the seating to around 10,000 and focus on that sized market. Can anyone guess where the money will come for those renos? It won't be from Northlands, i'll tell you that.

You're showing a terrible lack of common sense here in beating a Northlands drum. Not to mention your age with your pop music comment.

AC/DC plays mostly in stadiums. They have for decades. Not sure how you missed that.

Look, even if were taking the Katz Group bleating at heart they believe that Northlands WILL continue to be market competition and enough so that in their projections it has them worried. Thus their want for additional funding, subsidy etc that they tried to get. So you could either rest on the notion the Katz group are complete liars or be comfortable going to bed with them on this deal and presuming that everything will happen along just as promised. Although I'm not sure why anybody would believe that.

How will the arena benefit families on fixed incomes? Let me know about that.

This is specifically for a very defined portion of the population. Those that think they can afford 100's of bucks for a night of entertainment.

read the blog

It says EXACTLY the same thing.

Mastermaq by the way is the most widely quoted, read, civic minded blogger in Edmonton.

Must be bs though. Do yourself a favor a read it before more gesticulating..

I did read it. I read it when it came out and read it again before I posted. I also read his newest blog on the subject, and after intensive scouring, I can't find any statement that a new arena will have an adverse, and in some cases tragic, effect on the health and well being of the average Edmontonian. Feel free to point out where he says that for us all to see.

Tell me, Replacement, exactly HOW does building an arena downtown adversely affect families with fixed incomes. What SPECIFIC projects are to be scrapped because the richstars need a new place to play hockey. Which EXACT community rec centers and libraries are going to be forced to shut their doors because of this project.

Not sure what you're saying with this but its a pet peeve of mine when people keep quoting the MSI fund like it magically solves the missing 100M provincial contribution problem.

A deeper look at how Edmonton has used, is using, and is projected to use the MSI funding means that some bigtime shuffling has to take place.

But any way you slice it taking money out of the MSI fund to allocate it to the arena is going to take away from community initiatives.

Lottery? Keno? That was the WC proposal. Frankly I'd be disappointed if the Cons ran with it. Just another debilitating form of gambling that robs money from families that could otherwise use it. Hey why not suck money out of another addiction. Democratic Government shouldn't be benevolent..

Please, I am so sick of the morality police saying that the government is robbing people with gambling. Guess what? It's one of the oldest forms of entertainment in the world. If I want to spend my spare money in a Casino or on a lottery then what the hell do you care?

So now you're quotting a blogger as being truth? It's not ok for others to do so however? Oh Replacement....

Are you serious with this. Mastermaq is a highly respected blogger and source that has deep involvement with EEDC, City Council, is widely quoted on C2E, by journalists,is widely cited by Edmonton business community, leaders, etc. and has lead many downtown events.

This is not some random blogger. This is the biggest Edmonton proponent bar none. A guy that could run for City Hall on his basis of work and win on reputation.

I did read it. I read it when it came out and read it again before I posted. I also read his newest blog on the subject, and after intensive scouring, I can't find any statement that a new arena will have an adverse, and in some cases tragic, effect on the health and well being of the average Edmontonian. Feel free to point out where he says that for us all to see.

Tell me, Replacement, exactly HOW does building an arena downtown adversely affect families with fixed incomes. What SPECIFIC projects are to be scrapped because the richstars need a new place to play hockey. Which EXACT community rec centers and libraries are going to be forced to shut their doors because of this project.

And you have the gall to accuse me of gesticulating...

Apparently all of this escaped you from the blog. Seems pretty clear to me.

Quote:

Should we use MSI funding for the arena?

According to the City, the average age of Edmonton’s infrastructure assets is 30 years. At the end of 2011, more than 150 neighbourhoods required renewal. An average annual reinvestment of $400 million over the next three years, plus an average annual reinvestment of $450 million over the 2015-2021 period, is the minimum amount of funding required to renew Edmonton’s existing infrastructure to achieve a reasonable state of repair. This is a big challenge, and MSI funding provides only a piece of the pie.

As shown above, our MSI spend has been more or less equally split between new projects and upgrades or rehabilitation of existing assets. A total of $87.5 million was spent on seven new recreation facilities (either brand new, or additions to existing) from 2007 through 2011. Would we have rather spent all of that on the arena? A number of new projects would need to be postponed if funding was allocated instead to the arena. A total of $384.8 million was approved by Council for recreation and cultural projects in the 2012-2014 Capital Budget.
In a poll earlier this year, two-thirds of Edmontonians opposed provincial funding going toward the new arena. An equal number supported fast-tracking the southeast LRT line to Mill Woods. It would seem that the use of MSI funding thus far more or less aligns with the desires of Edmontonians, with the largest share going toward transit projects (though not all of that was LRT-related).

This decision would ultimately need to be made by City Council, and as we approach an election next year, I’m not sure many councillors would be willing to take money away from important neighbourhood renewal projects or new facilities like libraries and parks for the arena.

I figured if I bolded it you might see the forest..

Now relax and breathe. We're talking an arena, no need to get all bend out of shape.

ps you know I have gall, you got bladder, together on occasion it leads to **** and vinegar.

Apparently all of this escaped you from the blog. Seems pretty clear to me.

I figured if I bolded it you might see the forest..

Now relax and breathe. We're talking an arena, no need to get all bend out of shape.

No offense, but what about all the people that don't use libraries or parks but want to go to Oiler games? I am sure there are a lot of hockey fans that feel that way. I'm sure there are also a lot of hockey fans that hate the idea of the city spending money on museums instead of an arena. Those people have the same right to entertainment as anyone else.

Libraries and rec centers? Ever go the library anymore? You'd be the only one in there. The city already has plenty of recreational facilities, outdoor rinks on every corner, new playgrounds in damn near every schoolground... Let's not pretend Edmonton is Detroit.

Only the wealthy can afford to buy season tickets perhaps, but you don't need to be loaded to go to a few games a year. Not to mention concerts and other events.

Every library in the city is crowded. Where you been?

Minimum ticket price in the new arena for hockey will easily be 100bucks/ticket with all charges. Easy. If anybody wants to bet on that.

you think a normal family of 4 is going to plunk down 400buck minimum just to get in? Another 100bucks on concessions?

Remember as well people are engaged in "boomspeak' at the moment. Theres nobody here in the 90's that would be suggesting that people would be spending this kind of money on entertainment back then. Premium Oiler tickets were going for 20bucks pretty much any night right outside of Northlands. Scalpers could barely give them away.

Minimum ticket price in the new arena for hockey will easily be 100bucks/ticket with all charges. Easy. If anybody wants to bet on that.

you think a normal family of 4 is going to plunk down 400buck minimum just to get in? Another 100bucks on concessions?

Remember as well people are engaged in "boomspeak' at the moment. Theres nobody here in the 90's that would be suggesting that people would be spending this kind of money on entertainment back then. Premium Oiler tickets were going for 20bucks pretty much any night right outside of Northlands. Scalpers could barely give them away.

Guess what discretionary spending gets cut first during a downturn?

High priced entertainment.

Guess where were headed?

Again, why does the big family of four matter so much? Just because you people want to have tons of **** trophies running around, doesn't mean every form of entertainment in the city needs to be geared towards you. The single person, and 2 person family have just as much a right to entertainment then a big family. And you know what, if they made the decision to save money instead of procreate and they want to spend their expendable income on $300 worth of hockey tickets, what's the problem?

Minimum ticket price in the new arena for hockey will easily be 100bucks/ticket with all charges. Easy. If anybody wants to bet on that.

you think a normal family of 4 is going to plunk down 400buck minimum just to get in? Another 100bucks on concessions?

Remember as well people are engaged in "boomspeak' at the moment. Theres nobody here in the 90's that would be suggesting that people would be spending this kind of money on entertainment back then. Premium Oiler tickets were going for 20bucks pretty much any night right outside of Northlands. Scalpers could barely give them away.

Guess what discretionary spending gets cut first during a downturn?

High priced entertainment.

Guess where were headed?

Guess what, this is what happens when you live in a City. You don't want your money going into entertainment venues, then move to one of the several towns that surround the city.