There most certainly is when you think that a lack of romantic love in a female character's ending, no matter how otherwise triumphant and successful that character's ending otherwise is, would be a "letdown," in your words.

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I believe both Sansa's and Sandor's arcs would be best completed by finding happiness in that sense because of the particular story they have each been given (which I've already explained in previous comments).

LOL, of course you do, because you ship it, but "They should get together because I think it would be best" is not an argument.

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My point, though, is that the circumstances you've described as "building her up" are not.

Sure they are. Sansa is cool, clever, confident, and in control, and has successfully rid herself of Ramsay and Littlefinger.

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When I said "building up" I meant it more as building back up some of the hope and faith that Sansa was so full of at the beginning and that has been taken away from her. Sansa as she stands right now does not believe that things like love or loyalty exist.

Nope. If that were true, Arya and Jon would be dead. Sansa believes in love and loyalty where her family is concerned. Sansa can still smile and joke, as she does with Arya in 7x07. She still has hope and faith. She just reserves it for people who deserve it, like Jon (who cares about Sansa, even if he doesn't always listen to her), Arya (who for all her issues ultimately loves Sansa and will put her first), and Bran (who lost any tact along with his personality but who will help Sansa out as needed). She has the same attitude as the Tyrells, who trusted each other but no one else; there's nothing wrong with that.

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THAT, for me, is the let down - that they would punish her entirely for being idealistic to the point of entirely isolating her from those romantic concepts.

It's not about "punishment," it's about the character learning valuable lessons that they can apply to their own benefit, even if that involves suffering and having to make hard choices. Arya, Jon and Bran's perspectives and skillsets have all come at terrible cost as well.

Sansa is no more being "punished" by having terrible experiences with guys and realizing she can get what she wants without them than Tyrion would be being "punished" by having terrible experiences with women and deciding he's better off focusing on other things. It's about characters learning hard lessons from their experiences and growing as characters as a result.

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To me, the let down would be for Sansa (and Arya) to end their stories having only been exposed to the terrible side of romance and sexuality without any hope for experiencing the good side of it.

Why? Sansa has come to wish that she could be left to run Winterfell in peace without a man (even a kind, decent, well-meaning man like Jon) mucking things up for her, and Arya never wanted anything to do with romance or sexuality in any event. Forcing your own perspective as to what constitutes "true" happiness or fulfillment onto two characters who don't share it seems like a very limited way of viewing them.

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Why? Sansa has come to wish that she could be left to run Winterfell in peace without a man (even a kind, decent, well-meaning man like Jon) mucking things up for her,

When did that happen? Canon quotes, not your own interpretation?

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Arya never wanted anything to do with romance or sexuality in any event. Forcing your own perspective as to what constitutes "true" happiness or fulfillment onto two characters who don't share it seems like a very limited way of viewing them.

What will become of House Stark? No heirs, no legacy, no future. Just wondering what's your theory.

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The fact that 95% of the discussions I see now are about shipping and arguments about ships gives further prove of how downhill the writing on this show has gotten and how little substance the show has. yuck.

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The fact that 95% of the discussions I see now are about shipping and arguments about ships gives further prove of how downhill the writing on this show has gotten and how little substance the show has. yuck.

Ships are always there. They go hand in hand with the presence of characters.

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So... is there such a thing as love? If there is, why so much cost? What's the point? Is love something to be hidden away, a mark of shame, something that we should not feel?

Do GRRM and D&D hate love?

I think this is a great point. It would feel fundamentally weird and set an odd thematic point about love if there is no loving relationship that works out in the end. This is a generational tale about the lives of these chracters and for none of the main characters to end up in a loving relationship that lasts just seems odd. Now everyone does not need to find love. But at least one set of main characters should.

Also, not sure if Sam and Gilly is enough since they are still minor characters based on screen time etc.

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I think this is a great point. It would feel fundamentally weird and set an odd thematic point about love if there is no loving relationship that works out in the end. This is a generational tale about the lives of these chracters and for none of the main characters to end up in a loving relationship that lasts just seems odd. Now everyone does not need to find love. But at least one set of main characters should.

Also, not sure if Sam and Gilly is enough since they are still minor characters based on screen time etc.

I just set up a thread asking that question in the General ASOIAF sub-forum.

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Ships are always there. They go hand in hand with the presence of characters.

i'm aware of that and i usually don't have a problem with it. but i feel like ever since season 6 its become the most heavily discussed subject in the fandom. with jon/sansa vs jonerys, tormund/brienne, jaime/brienne and the countless other sansa ships. its ship talk, talk about whether jon and or dany will survive, sansa vs arya bullshit and sansa being QITN and cersei's prophecy that dominates discussion now. but it didn't always used to be like this. there used to be more variety in regards to discussion. i blame GRRM not writing and the show turning into a dumpster fire for this.

i basically hate all ships now but gendry/arya.

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I think this is a great point. It would feel fundamentally weird and set an odd thematic point about love if there is no loving relationship that works out in the end. This is a generational tale about the lives of these chracters and for none of the main characters to end up in a loving relationship that lasts just seems odd. Now everyone does not need to find love. But at least one set of main characters should.

Also, not sure if Sam and Gilly is enough since they are still minor characters based on screen time etc.

i think jon and dany will both survive the series and cement their place as the big epic romance of the story. sure its forced, rushed and terribly written on the show with kit and emilia having no chemistry but that didn't stop Edward/Bella in twilight of being this "epic romance" so why not jonerys?

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I think this is a great point. It would feel fundamentally weird and set an odd thematic point about love if there is no loving relationship that works out in the end. This is a generational tale about the lives of these chracters and for none of the main characters to end up in a loving relationship that lasts just seems odd. Now everyone does not need to find love. But at least one set of main characters should.

Also, not sure if Sam and Gilly is enough since they are still minor characters based on screen time etc.

Yes. This. Westeros isn't some kind of Orwellian dystopia. Love does exist and to think that they will give everyone a tragic/bittersweet ending (ie. end up alone or dead) seems pretty simplistic to me.

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The fact that 95% of the discussions I see now are about shipping and arguments about ships gives further prove of how downhill the writing on this show has gotten and how little substance the show has. yuck.

I'm with you. I give a shit who Sansa or Brienne or Tyrion get busy with or love. I care if/how the Others are defeated, what the political/social/economic order of Westeros following all these wars looks like, and if the characters who survive the war live long and successful lives or not.

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I'm with you. I give a shit who Sansa or Brienne or Tyrion get busy with or love. I care if/how the Others are defeated, what the political/social/economic order of Westeros following all these wars looks like, and if the characters who survive the war live long and successful lives or not.

Usually - and particularly in a feudal society such as Westeros - that entails marriage, children, and securing the next generation of one's House. Hence, the debates about who ends up with whom. As the story draws to an end, it's natural for that concern to come to the fore since we're all thinking of what happens after the curtains fall. Naturally, most people would like for the characters they like to end up with people who would make them happy after the curtains fall, hence the debating and "shipping".

Edited September 21 by Song of the Sea

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i think jon and dany will both survive the series and cement their place as the big epic romance of the story. sure its forced, rushed and terribly written on the show with kit and emilia having no chemistry but that didn't stop Edward/Bella in twilight of being this "epic romance" so why not jonerys?

I am in the camp that thought it was very well done.

But I agree. There is a good chance Jonerys makes it through to the end.

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But I agree. There is a good chance Jonerys makes it through to the end.

i mean to each their own. i wanted to love jon/dany but it just did nothing for me and didn't make me feel anything. it was a boring and trite as robb/talisa to me but at least robb/talisa had chemistry. but yeah nice for you and other jonerys fans that they're gonna survive till the end i guess lol.

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@Song of the Sea I hear you but not every character needs to be paired up with another character we've already met and success and happiness doesn't hinge on getting married or having a family. What I mean by wondering if they were successful and live long lives, I mean "did Tyrion become an admired figure who, in a position of authority, helped break the wheel and institute laws helping the common good, or did Tyrion go back to being a despised and underappreciated drunk who was murdered by thieves while in a brothel shortly after the war was over?" "Did Grey Worm transition from being a soldier to being a farmer/city watchmen/merchant/anything, or did he struggle to adapt to a new world order of peace and prosperity?" "Did Jorah ever mend his relationship with the Mormonts of Bear Island? Did he find fulfillment in whatever he did knowing that Daenerys chose Jon?"... it is questions like that which I most care about.

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So you don't see any irony in saying that you hate all the shippers and then saying that you don't care about any ships except your own preferred ship?

i don't hate all shippers. i just resent that the show has gotten so bad and that GRRM hasn't released TWOW that the majority of discussion now is in regards to ships. i'm sorry i just could have never guessed back when i got into this series that tormund leering at brienne a couple of times would have the fans lose their collective minds or that their would be this great incest ship war over jon snowflake and whether he's better with his aunty or his sister/cousin (one is a bad crackship and the other is boring D&D fanfic like no thanks to both imo lol)

Arya/Gendry isn't even a "preferred" ship but one that hasn't just been ruined for me because the show hasn't done anything with it yet lol.

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Sansa is cool, clever, confident, and in control, and has successfully rid herself of Ramsay and Littlefinger

Sansa used to be a stupid cow up to season 6. She mellowed a bit in season 7, but to describe her as cool and clever, is simply nonsense. Now as adult she is not as dumb anymore and gets her stuff together a little bit.

She did not rid herself of Ramsay. She barely escaped endangering her life and Ramsay was beaten by the army, not her in the least. Baelish worked his connections, not Sansa. They were all suprised, Baelish turned up just in time with the army.

Without Bran's visions and Arya's knowledge Sansa would have most probably not get rid of Littlefinger. At least Sansa was smart enough to listen to her to siblings. She mellowed a bit, yes. But she is far aways from being really cool and in control. Contradicting Jon in front of all people was neither smart nor sensible. A smart woman would have played her cards in other ways.

9 hours ago, jcmontea said:

It would feel fundamentally weird and set an odd thematic point about love if there is no loving relationship that works out in the end.

Well, maybe close to reality, though?

These Hollywood-ish scenarios of "the married and lived happily ever after" is stupid nonsense. The main problems start after marriage.

I guess we will see one or another couple coming together in love. Whether this will last, we will never know. World changes, always. One scene can be "love forever", the next can be betrayel, sickness, envy, jealosy or whatever. Forget Hollywood. See the reality!

Season 8 will end, but the Westeros world will continue. With new game of thrones. No kingdom lasts eternally.