If you are new to the forums, you must register a free account before you can post. The forums have a separate registration from the rest of www.chronofhorse.com, so your log in information for one will not automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

OP, you've gotten some high-quality advice about how to achieve your goals as a rider. People have responded thoughtfully after taking the time to read your questions and go back and read your blog, which provides a fairly detailed description of your experiences.

Most of this advice has come from people who have taken one or more horses to your goal of second level of beyond. This is really, really good feedback, for free, from people who are trying to help you move from what you've had-- many heartbreaks without progress in years, at great expense to yourself-- to something truly rewarding. That is the exact opposite of an attack. It's help.

Everyone who advised you take lessons also takes lessons. Olympic riders take lessons. Everyone who advised you to go for a made horse has ridden a made horse when their situation demanded it. This is not an attack-- people are shining a light on the only path toward advanced horsemanship.

I suggest you read through your blog and look at how frustrated you've been. Then ask yourself whether you're ready to dedicate yourself to the consistent, high-quality instruction that will prevent you from having these kinds of frustrations again. Ask yourself whether you'd rather spend time developing your skills than buying and returning saddles for horses who aren't right for you (lesson horses come complete with tack), and whether you'd like to become the kind of rider who can select from a wider variety of horses because you have the expertise.

In other words, ask yourself if you're more committed to hearing what you want to hear or to learning.

Best of luck.

I am taking lessons once a week from a highly regarded trainer in our area. She has been a pillar of the dressage community for a long time. I am not changing trainers at this time as I do not need to. My current trainer is perfectly suited for my level right now. We have discussed if/when I become solid at Training about moving to a different trainer in the area. However, for now I can get the exact same instruction from her that I would get from other trainers for half the price. The only difference between her and some other trainers in her area is that she does not supply lesson horses, and I am finding that the amount of trainers that do actually supply lesson horses is becoming fewer and fewer.

I read through everything that everybody said and I just felt like a good chunk of it was commenting on the rider I was eight months ago. I have since moved on from my fear of mounting, and I never had a fear of cantering. When I first started riding my lease gelding he size was a bit intimidating, but I got over it with the help of my friend and my trainer.

No, I am not a brave rider, but I am certainly not shaking in my boots and needing somebody to hold my hand every time I go out to the barn. I still go out 4 to 5 times a week and ride w/t/c, quite often by myself.

I know I'm repeating myself, but you need to be realistic about where the problem lies.

There are a lot of experienced horsepeople on this board.

And when you post things like "the mare has flying lead changes" and you're showing her w/t ...
your blog says horse is so lame one week he is miserable even standing up and you're doing flying lead changes (!) on him the next week ...
you have canter fears and want to go up the levels and hilltopping ...

Don't be surprised when those experienced horsepeople realize you have no idea what you're talking about and call you on it.

She was w/t/c in the video, no she didn't do any flying lead change in the video, yes she does them under saddle with her owner. She and I have more than enough things to work on at the walk and the trot before we start working on the canter together.

Even if neither horse appeals, why not get in touch with this group & just talk horses with them.

Have you looked at this horse? likely over your budget but you may be able to sort something - I'd request video

A budget of 3K should buy you a decent dressage prospect but focus on conformation & movement, request conformation photos & suitable movement video from every horse before you drive anywhere - sit down with your trainer, she will be able to tell you what you want to see on video, it's likely you'll need to request additional video from sellers ... then plan a road trip day & visit several horses.

As for "knowing" a horse, if horse is not currently doing what you want to do with the horse, if horse has not been challenged physically & mentally (as 1st Level dressage would either video mare), then horse is still very much an unknown.
If you like draft crosses, then also familiarize yourself with PSSM in horses.

I am with Alto - have you SEEN the suspension in that horse? Just what I'd want if I were in the position to purchase. That said, I didn't search hard enough to see what the seller was asking. But MY GOODNESS. Watch the freestyle video. Lovely gaits.

Even when I had my braver-than-brave Appendix (who had similar lofty gaits), I was not the bravest of riders. I fox hunted one, maybe two times. I found it terrifying to be on (a former QH racehorse) uneven ground, going hell-bent for leather through trees, hole-ridden terrain. Never mind the fences!

I also love the sweetness of the Pink Horse. She's adorable. I am old enough (late 30s) that temperament takes precedence. I have enough going on in my non-equine life that I want to look forward to going to the barn. I don't need the aggravation of a snippy mount.

I sincerely hope you find what you want. I want Magi Magic! If you have ambitions to 2nd or higher, I suggest you pursue this route. If not, the Pink Horse is a wonderful choice. As with any animal, it's always a roll of the dice on health issues.

Regarding the draft x mare. I bred Shire/TB's for years myself and the personally matched up the breeding of both parents for an offspring that could do dressage to maybe 3rd level. That was the goal...for those who wanted to enjoy dressage, couldn't afford expensive WB's. That program met its goal...they all did very well. But they were built very uphill, the dams wer TBs, so they were lighter. They were very carefully purpose-bred.

This mare was not. But many are not. True, some can do well but that is not the norm if they were not carefully purpose bred.

I know draftx conformation (ad nauseum)and what may cause a struggle (or not). So I'll pipe in here and hopefully it will help, but may not be what you want to hear. Who wants to hear anything when we find a horse we love...

In my experience, this mare, because of her conformation and way of going would really, really struggle...if ever get to 2nd level and do well, maybe even first and be competitive -- which is what I assume you want to do in showing her.

What you see in going free in the school is not necessarily what you will get u/s.

That said, if you like her and want to to other fun stuff with her like hunt or trail ride,by here and have a blast. Surely the price is right.

If getting to 2nd level and doing well at it...well, I think you will become frustrated, if showing is your thing. She is not forward thinking, "hitchy" in the hocks, and does not naturally move back to front.

I think you need 2 horses...one to trail ride and have fun with, and one that is built both physically and mentally to show well in dressage to 2nd level , or keep looking for one that can do both comfortably.

Even if neither horse appeals, why not get in touch with this group & just talk horses with them.

Have you looked at this horse? likely over your budget but you may be able to sort something - I'd request video

A budget of 3K should buy you a decent dressage prospect but focus on conformation & movement, request conformation photos & suitable movement video from every horse before you drive anywhere - sit down with your trainer, she will be able to tell you what you want to see on video, it's likely you'll need to request additional video from sellers ... then plan a road trip day & visit several horses.

As for "knowing" a horse, if horse is not currently doing what you want to do with the horse, if horse has not been challenged physically & mentally (as 1st Level dressage would either video mare), then horse is still very much an unknown.
If you like draft crosses, then also familiarize yourself with PSSM in horses.

Is the video of Magi Magic? I shudder to think how much they might want for him if it is.

Unfortunately I am learning the hard way about PSSM, I highly suspect that my lease gelding has it. All of the basic symptoms match what he is doing right now. I am anxiously counting down the days until his owner gets back so hopefully I can convince her to get a vet out and do the test.

I think you need 2 horses...one to trail ride and have fun with, and one that is built both physically and mentally to show well in dressage to 2nd level , or keep looking for one that can do both comfortably.

I wish I could afford two horses. I have for a long time now wanted to get a gaited horse for trails and a non-gaited horse for showing. I actually went and looked at a few in the spring, but when it came down to it I didn't want to give up on the dressage thing in favor of the trail riding thing.

It seems like a horse that is calm enough for me, can be ridden on trails nicely, but also turn around and show with does not exist. The horse is either good for show or good for trails.

Don't laugh to loud, but my best bud that was given to me as an unbroke and roudy 3 yr old was a TWH, who I taught NOT to gait at the sitting trot...and become a dressage horse. But could use that wonderful "egg-beater", not bounce running walk out on the trails.

I lost him several years ago at age 23.

Now, I wouldn't recommend a gaited horse for dressage, but the moral of the story is...they are out there. A 2 in 1. Keep hunting. Best of luck to you.

Is the video of Magi Magic? I shudder to think how much they might want for him if it is.

Unfortunately I am learning the hard way about PSSM, I highly suspect that my lease gelding has it. All of the basic symptoms match what he is doing right now. I am anxiously counting down the days until his owner gets back so hopefully I can convince her to get a vet out and do the test.

No, sorry, the video was just an example of a 2nd level horse (that MM happened to post coincidentally) - I wanted you to watch this & then (perhaps) realize what an effort this sort of movement would be for the video mare: even with training & correct riding, she would have to work very hard even for 1st Level & I tend to question how fair that is to the horse ...

If you are happy with just her & happy to take her as far as she can easily (still working hard) go, that is a different scenario than saying I have 2nd Level goals & want/need a horse that can get there with me (also learning at the same time).

If things worked out with that very nice TB, then after riding him for some years, you would have the skill set to take a horse such as that mare & more easily (for both horse & rider) develop her (an I still would not expect her to show past 1st Level).

As for a trail riding dressage horse, that is a skill set that most horses CAN learn, but it may need to be developed as carefully as any other u/s responses.

I wish I could afford two horses. I have for a long time now wanted to get a gaited horse for trails and a non-gaited horse for showing. I actually went and looked at a few in the spring, but when it came down to it I didn't want to give up on the dressage thing in favor of the trail riding thing.

It seems like a horse that is calm enough for me, can be ridden on trails nicely, but also turn around and show with does not exist. The horse is either good for show or good for trails.

I don't think it's as dire as all that. The mare has four legs that work. You can show her to your heart's delight. IMO if I was faced with an either or; either a sure second level or a fun all rounder I'd take the all rounder in a heartbeat.

I don't think it's as dire as all that. The mare has four legs that work. You can show her to your heart's delight. IMO if I was faced with an either or; either a sure second level or a fun all rounder I'd take the all rounder in a heartbeat.

Paula

Why this notion that a dressage horse can't gallop on the beach, go out on the trails, jump stadium, go cross country, be a FUN horse!

It doesn't have to be an either/or. Both of my horses go out on the trails like champs (though I will say that my FEI horse loses his little mind sometimes, but it's good for him to get outside even if he doesn't like it).

But horses aren't ATVs. You have to work on training the horses up the levels in the sandbox. You have to work on taking your horse outside the arena and seeing new things.

As far as the mare in the OP, she's pretty cute. But, at 6, she's going to fill out more. She's going to start looking pretty darn stout at 8 or 9, which is going to make that saddle-fitting thing even more of a nightmare. I didn't see enough of a canter to make any judgments there. Canter gets increasingly important up the levels, so make sure that any prospect you buy (if you want a successful 2nd+ horse) has a quality 3-beat canter that has some elasticity and sitting to it.

Alto, that's not what we meant to say. It's just that this poster wants a quiet trail horse that also will move up the levels. By virtue of their training dressage horses are forward and very athletic.

Alto, that's not what we meant to say. It's just that this poster wants a quiet trail horse that also will move up the levels. By virtue of their training dressage horses are forward and very athletic.

How's that?
Paula

Better
but truly you can train for the trail just as carefully as you train for the arena

If you choose a dressage prospect that comes out of a pasture ranging herd, obviously this is much easier than a stall/paddock raised baby.

My budget is up to $3000, which in this area apparently doesn't buy a lot when it comes to dressage-types. I would need at least $6000 to start being a contender. Between $0-$3000 there are a million QHs and Paints winning on the local circuits or even breed show circuits, but when it comes to dressage types, nada.

Gosh, I haven't read the entire thread but many of you are being terribly harsh with the poor OP - holy gods, give the poor thing a break!

I completely understand your conflict, but for what it's worth think that you should hold out for something a bit better suited to your goals. The budget may not support a fancy warmblood, but for sure there are loads of Quarter Horses and Paints out there who will be easier for you to bring along. Not to mention Thoroughbreds - aren't you considering those? I currently have an OTTB gelding I paid $700 for that is infinitely more suitable than the 2 mares you have posted. If you take your time I promise that you will find an inexpensive one you feel just as much of a connection with, and which won't make you feel as though you are compromising on your riding goals. You can certainly learn a great deal from a lovable downhill draft cross, but why not invest that same amount of time and $$ into something that might surprise you and go well beyond second level? You may also wish to consider the future value of the horse once you get it to second level - you will be able to sell a well-built one with the capacity to keep climbing for much more than the heavy downhill topped-out horse. Think of it as a potential strategy for getting some of your lesson money back when you decide you want something better or different!

Have you mentioned where you are geographically so that you can harness the horse-finding powers of COTH? Please just ignore all the idjits that are dog-piling on you for rope halters and such.

It seems like a horse that is calm enough for me, can be ridden on trails nicely, but also turn around and show with does not exist. The horse is either good for show or good for trails.

Don't give up on that goal; those horses are definitely out there and they are not necessarily $$$. My first horse, a grade horse, mostly QH, was $1K. He was a true "all-rounder" and would hack out, jump, and competed through 1st level. He also could do tempe changes and canter pirouettes. My Trakehener ($6K) could hack on the trails with a rank beginner (my husband), was trained through second level and hunted in a bitless bridle. Yes, that's out of your budget but for the breed was quite reasonable. My OTTB ($300) hacks on the buckle, foxhunts first flight and easily has the movement to go beyond second (I don't show any more, but I do school him in dressage).

My Trakehner came out of the womb with that type of personality but my OTTB learned his new jobs with patience and training. He was a successful racehorse so he needed some "retuning" before he accepted that he didn't have to be first all the time!

Some horses are fine on the trails right from the beginning; others need to be introduced to them. I don't know if you've had the chance to ride this mare out on the trails but you should definitely put her through that test if you are considering her.

Plenty of horses can be dressage horses and quiet trail horses. Our barn has one horse that is showing 3rd and trail rides and used to jump her.
Another horse in the barn jumps 2'9 with the owner, paperchases and trail rides cross county and jumps everything. He does 2nd level with his lease rider.

Most of my trainers show hunter horses could go out and put down a solid training level test tomorrow but could trail ride on the buckle. My trainer has an eventing backround so uses a fair amount of good dressage as part of everyday riding. Many of those same horses with some additional training would be able to get to 2nd and not be embarrassed.

The horses are out there. Take your time. Take lessons. If you can afford it take lessons twice a week and be patient. The right horse will come along. One that can trail ride, do low level dressage, pace event/paper chase and maybe hilltop.

Of all your goals I think the hilltopping will be the toughest. Some horses just can't deal with the excitement of a group galloping off and the hounds and and and.......
In the last couple of years I started foxhunting. I go non jumping mostly with a farmer's pack. They are a smaller group and real patient with green horses and green riders. I think I am a more confident rider than you are. Yet I frequently while hunting have the feeling of my heart in my throat. I still find it fun but when the group gets rolling and Fin gets a bit up I question my riding ability and do some praying.

I occasionally foxhunt down in VA with a COTH member that has guest/livery horses. My recommendation is to take a road trip and go on a nice 3rd field foxhunting experience with her or find somebody local that has quality guest horses. Try out foxhunting and see if it is something you like and are comfortable with. Why look for a horse that could hilltop if you get out there and find out it really isn't your cup of tea. Going out on a solid guest horse for the first couple of times to get your feet wet and learn the rules is a good thing. Being new to hunting and having a horse new to hunting all at the same time is overwhelming. Trust me, been there, done that, have the TShirt.

Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

Finally got a chance to watch this guy's video. He seems like a pretty quiet dude but doesn't really make me want to jump up and drive 2.5 hours away to see him unless somebody else sees something I don't.

She trail rides great, have trail ridden her a couple of times and she has this calming effect on all the horses (and humans) it seems like, even my friend's gaited gelding that has more go than whoa becomes docile when she is added to the group. It is pretty funny.

This horse is for sale by a friend of my trainer. However, from what I have gathered from talking to people that know the owner and the horse she has had even less work done than Sydney and is three times the price. http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/grd/3995925821.html