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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

When we look at the instinctual 'fear' responses, that means we ignore everything that we've been taught in terms of being civilized.

"Civilization is an artificial construct!" So is your house, but I don't see you trying to tear it down claiming that it was simply pieced together from pieces of dead wood and ground rock. An argument about the foundations of society is welcome elsewhere. This is fucking rape.

And while some of you are saying "oh, she shouldn't have been there" "Oh, well, it's her friend's fault for not staying" "She drank too much so it's her fault", there was a very important Dan Savage article that I think is worthy of quoting in this thread:

Quote:

I'm a 17-year-old girl and, in most aspects, I'm confident with myself, my identity, and my body. Earlier this year, I met a girl. She had some serious drama at home and needed to get out of her house, so I let her stay at mine. Things went a LOT further than I was ready for. I had just had my first kiss the month before and I didn't feel like our relationship was ready for sex, but I went along with it because she never gave me a chance to slow things down or say no.

My feelings for her are gone; she is attractive, but we don't connect. But she has feelings for me. How can I get her to understand, or at least respect, how I feel if she doesn't understand why this was a big deal for me?

Growing Older Youth

There's a movement in sex-ed circles to replace the old opt-out consent mantra, "No means no," with a new, improved opt-in consent mantra, "Yes means yes." YMY says it's not good enough to wait for the other person to stop the action with a "no," which many people—particularly young people, particularly young girl people—have a hard time doing. You have to get a "yes."

But the kind of person who doesn't give you a chance to say "no," GOY, is unlikely to solicit a "yes." Which is why we all need to advocate for ourselves in the moment.

And you failed to do that, GOY—you failed to advocate for yourself in the moment.

I don't say that to make you feel bad or to shift the blame onto your shoulders, GOY, I say it because we've all been there. Most confident, sexually active adults can point to an early experience that went too far, too fast, a sexual encounter that left us feeling the way you did after you had sex with this girl. And it's possible to walk away from an experience like that—one that left you feeling shitty and powerless—feeling empowered to advocate for yourself in uncomfortable sexual situations in the future, GOY, provided you learn the right lesson.

Here's the wrong lesson: "I'm a total fuckup who can't speak up for myself when I'm having sex, so I'd better not have sex again. Ever." That's bullshit, GOY, and what's worse, that kind of thinking can make a person more vulnerable the next time she winds up in bed with an insensitive jerk. Here's the right lesson: "I don't have to wait for someone to give me a 'chance' to say no. I can and will say no whenever I want to. I'm not going to let this happen to me again because I never want to feel this way again. Ever."

As for the girl, GOY, tell her straight up that you don't have feelings for her. And tell her why: Things went too far, too fast, and the sex ruined it for you. Don't sugarcoat things to avoid hurting her feelings, GOY, because she's got a lesson to learn, too. Hers goes like this: "I didn't ask the person I was with—someone I really liked—if she was cool with what we were doing, and I totally fucked myself out of what could've been a really great relationship. I'm not going to do that to anyone again. Ever."

We all know that some people play it coy, and that some people lead others on. Great, wonderful, awesome. But when you ARE LITERALLY INCAPABLE OF SAYING YES because of intoxication, then that does not mean you are able to give consent.

"Oh, she didn't say it was rape until later". Uh, you got in a fight the night before when you were drunk and you didn't say it wasn't your fault until the next day. Obviously it was your fault.

Sigh. I see so much back and forth. Lets try to be objective and see if we can agree on some things.

>>Rape is bad. Always. No matter what.

But why is there so much controversy here? Because there is a very fine line between sex and rape. That line is sometimes razor thin, and often depends on YOUR OWN PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE. Sex doesn't always involve a "Yes I want you inside me right now" conversation. 80% of our interactions is spoken through our body language. Everyday, people use body language to gauge other people's feelings. Ever try turning on your significant other, and them saying "No, I don't feel like it!" , yet you keep pushing them, and you guys end up having wild, amazing ticklish playful sex? That's not rape. Yet she said no?

A lot of things have to do with body language. A girl who is drinking with a guy (or a group of guys) is showing through her body language that she wants to be there.

A girl that continues to drink until she gets drunk is telling them that she is comfortable being around them while intoxicated.

A girl that continues to drink until she she passes out is telling them that she trusts them enough to be completely uninhibited - should she???

>>Rape is bad. Always. No matter what.

But lets put this in an alternative scenario. Say you drove your car into the DTES. Say you just went to the bank and you took out 50k in cash. Say you rolled down your windows and left the cash in plain view and left it overnight. You come back in the morning and the money disappeared.

Should someone have stole your money? No. It was your money. It was sitting in your property. You took it out of your bank account. But why would you roll your windows down and let it sit in plain view when you know that it's probably going to get stolen? Maybe you would feel comfortable enough like that in your own neighborhood. Maybe you feel safe doing that when your car is parked in your garage. But why would you do that in a high risk enviroment?

That's the attitude that women must have when they go out.

Women are physically weaker.

Women are vulnerable.

Women will get taken advantage and if they are defenseless.

More reasons for them to take precautions. More reason that they should be more careful. More reason they should learn to protect themselves.

When are women going to learn that?

If you get drunk to the point where you don't remember anything anymore boys will try to have sex with you because they think you are lowering your inhibitions so that you will have sex with them without feeling guilty. That is prevalent in the whole clubbing and drinking scene because that's what women do in reality. Of course that's not the case in every scenario - but our society loves alcohol so much that they have often associated getting drunk together + private setting + sexual tension = sex.

Just like nobody advocates for theft, nobody advocates rape. But in all these situations where we have been hearing recently, these young women (like many women everywhere) put themselves into very compromising positions. Parked their cars in bad neighborhoods with cash in plain view.

This is not like the other type of gang rape that happened in India that everyone can agree on with clear cut aggressors.

Nobody's saying "It's your fault that you got your shit stolen". They are saying "Please do more to try to protect yourself and your property, it's a bad neighborhood".

A lot of this goes back to alcohol, the social lubricant of our society. I find it kind of fucked up that nobody even brings this up - these kids are getting passed out drunk at fifteen years old.

But the thing is, these boys and girls are getting together to get fucking shit faced together. And that seems to be okay in our society because hey, it's just alcohol right? That's the thing though. They are getting fucked up on alcohol, and it's all okay. The boys feel like they lubricated the situation enough to progress forward. In their mind THAT'S why the girls are getting drunk with them. In their mind, you are getting uninhibited with them because you want to.

I think biologically - all of us are just animals. Women get drunk because they want to have fun and lesser their inhibition while getting attention, and guys drink because they want the boosted confidence and because they want to fuck girls with lowered inhibitions.

Sometimes guys push a little too hard. Sometimes girls say no too often and lose the attention and want it back by dressing slutty or drinking themselves to lower inhibitions. It's a constant tug-o-war.

If that's not what you want, please stop putting yourself in these terrible situations. Some girls will say "But I just want to go out and have a good time!" But the truth is, that's not what most guys want. They just want to get you drunk so they can fuck you.

Now maybe at that moment she wanted to impress her friends. Maybe she wanted to impress the boys. Who's right, and who's wrong? Who get's to judge in this situation?

Women, I hope you can learn to take care of yourself. Because in this evil, evil world, horny boys certainly aren't going to. When you put yourself into these high risk type of settings, it sometimes becomes hard to be on your side.

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Geez god forbid you have a daughter that gets drunk and loses her mind at a party where bunch of guys have there way but to only end up on a show like Maury Povich (if they can find all parties) testing who the real baby daddy is. She asked for it... great society.

yeah i don't know why the fuck some of these young teens sneak out of their Parent's house late at night thinking it's going to be a Fun experience Drinking Smirnoff 50% Alcohol & Everything is Going to A-OKAY thru the whole Night......Let alone with Scum Bag Steve.

I am amazed there are people in this thread who slam the victim more then the people who committed the crime. Drinking alcohol is not an invitation to be raped. No one deserves to be raped. There is no justification, period. If you think otherwise, your moral compass is pointed the wrong direction.

Geez god forbid you have a daughter that gets drunk and loses her mind at a party where bunch of guys have there way but to only end up on a show like Maury Povich (if they can find all parties) testing who the real baby daddy is. She asked for it... great society.

I don't know what you are trying to say. There's only so much parent's can do. And all parents of teenage kids will know, the more you control them the more they will rebel. That's exactly why I am scared to have a daughter, and all of my friends know this lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRYALT3R3D

I am amazed there are people in this thread who slam the victim more then the people who committed the crime. Drinking alcohol is not an invitation to be raped. No one deserves to be raped. There is no justification, period. If you think otherwise, your moral compass is pointed the wrong direction.

See - This is why I spent so much time emphasizing in my post. Nobody fucking advocates rape, and definitely nobody is "slamming rape victim". There's nothing wrong with our "moral compass".

I have a problem with people just blindly standing on either side without looking at things objectively sometimes. I thought our society relies on evidence and trial, instead of just pure speculation.

Rapists are despicable. The thing is these girls make it difficult for us to know who the rapists actually are.

The problem with these young teenage girls is they put themselves and their state of minds in some very grey areas. They hang out with douchebag idiot teenagers and they get intoxicated until they pass out. Assuming you weren't there, do you know what the atmosphere was like leading up to sex? Was there sexual tension? Was there touching? What if while they were fucking she started gyrating because her body felt good but she didn't even know cause she's half passed out? Is that rape? I don't fucking know. But if being a rapist means that when the girl wakes up after having way too much to drink and the threshold is "I was too drunk to remember" and "I regret what happened last night" then there are a lot of rapists out there.

I advocate consensual fun sex. Everyone should consent. But the problem is: Did she consent while she was drunk? And forgot about it? We will never know.

Here you have a classic He said She said. I'm not talking about this case. I'm talking about all the cases out there.

I'm not discouraging people that get raped to not report their crimes. I'm asking women to take care of themselves so that it won't turn into he said she said.

It's like if you got into a stupid accident with ICBC. Person A says one thing. Person B says another. Who the fuck are you supposed to believe? You wouldn't believe one person just because they drive a specific car. Why would you believe someone because of a specific gender?

A serious accusation like this needs to be taken objectively with evidence into consideration. If all was "she said she didn't consent" but got "too drunk to remember anything" then our whole legal system would be fucked.

I am amazed there are people in this thread who slam the victim more then the people who committed the crime. Drinking alcohol is not an invitation to be raped. No one deserves to be raped. There is no justification, period. If you think otherwise, your moral compass is pointed the wrong direction.

Read the damn thread.

NO one is saying women deserves to be raped. They dont. Its WRONG. Already established that. The back and forth argument is regarding whether or not she or anyone else for that matter, increases their chances of having bad things happen to them if they "place" them self in questionable circumstances.

In my opinion, its like a lottery, just like anything else in life (accidents etc.) If you go to questionable places, do questionable things, your chances are higher, and bound to happen. Its plain logic. Not sure what there is to understand here.

I support the theory of Ulic and others. We as human beings are inherent to doing bad things. Its easier, we are born with it, and we can see it in children right when they are toddlers. No one teaches them, they are just born naturally selfish. They want want want, and don't want to share. Parents have to teach children GOOD things, raise them WELL, all the way into adulthood. Theres a reason for it. Its called a sinful nature. Ill just leave that there without getting too religious.

For the people who disagree with Ulic and others, please, just answer his SIMPLE questions:

Why do you lock your doors to your house and cars?
Why do Fathers worry/protective about their daughters?

Why do I lock my doors at night? Because as civilized as we are, people fall through the cracks. But let's be realistic--almost everyone living in a detached house has their doors secured by a single deadbolt lock. And a huge proportion of these have doors with windows that are within reach of the lock (either in the doors or beside). So I could go up to the house and with about 15 seconds' more work, break in to your house.

Why lock my doors? Because the insurance company says if I do then I'm okay. Hooray! Sadly, such a similarity doesn't exist with daughters.

Why do Fathers worry about or are they protective of their daughters? Because parents are protective of their children. I'm not a girl, but my parents took serious issue when I would come home late or not tell them what was going on. And this was back in the days before cellphones; now that it's possible for parents to have constant communication, it's even more worrying when your kids CAN but DON'T communicate with you.

The issue I take with the fear-psychology people is the idea that any behaviour can be excused simply by saying "well, we're programmed for it, so...too bad". That implies that anyone can do anything and just say "whoops, base instincts. Gotta let me go, right?". Bullshit. The sad truth of it is that laws treat everyone as equals even though not everyone is; some people are better educated and come from more fortunate backgrounds, others less so. People are given vastly different opportunities and chances and places in life yet are judged in the same manner in the court of law. If the courts turn to the lowest common denominator, then nobody wins. Does this mean that Pickton should be excused because everyone who owns a pig farm can easily dispose of bodies, which means that of course he'd go out raping women? What about abusive husbands? Of course he's going to punch his pregnant wife in the face--she didn't get his beer fast enough.

Crime cannot be blamed on the victims. Some crimes can be used as methods to help others realize how not to become victims themselves, but if we say that a crime is the fault of the victim... What a sorry state things have come to then.

While I may seem to be this massive left-wing nutjob on the edge of being a feminazi here, I've actually been criticized multiple times for being a misogyist. You see, on my phone I have a not-inconsiderable collection of scantily clad girls who frequently go through rotation as my phone's wallpaper. This is important background for the story.

You see, there's a friend of mine I used to work with--she's a really good foil for me in person. While I'm a heathen, she's a hard-core Christ-y. She's straight up and direct and blunt, and I try to be more diplomatic. We make a good team. However, she is more than decently endowed. Now, for me I see this as a good thing; I would often comment on it as a way of complimenting her. She, however, didn't see it this way. And I didn't get that. She made a fuss when I'd comment on it, and I had thought that it was her way of acting as though she didn't want the compliment (and/or fishing for more). So I kept it up.

Then one day, as usual, I did a teensy bit of teasing her on it. And then, to my shock and surprise, she came back with a very personal fact that I had told her; not a secret exactly, but something that I had told her in confidence and had asked her to keep private. And she snapped it back at me. At work. In public. Where everyone was listening.

At that point, I had a choice in reactions. Typically what would happen is someone would go "What the fuck bitch, I told you that in confidence, how could you shout that out?" But of course, I'm hardly typical.

So what did I do? I shut the fuck up. I stopped dead. And I thought to myself, "Holy shit. She just said that to me--she must know that this thing that I don't tell everyone bothers me. Is this how I've been making her feel? Is what I've been saying the same emotional register as what she just said to me?"

And from that point on, I stopped. I dropped it. Because what's right there and obvious and easily talked about by some is something that is a slap in the face and a kick to the balls to others. One person can't judge another person's emotional intensity, in the same way that one person can't judge another's pain tolerance. When I was a kid I had gallstones--supposedly one of the most painful things one can experience, and according to one of my mother's friends even worse than childbirth. I had gallstone pain from around 5AM. But I got up, went to school, and got sent home (not of my own volition, the teacher kicked me out because he said I didn't look well enough to be there). My mom took me to the hospital at 3 and I had surgery that night. I had that stabbing pain for probably about...15 hours? Very not fun. And yeah, I cried. Twice. But the doctor told my uncle (who I trust to tell me the truth more than my parents) that he was amazed I was keeping it together. Most people couldn't.

So when people say "whatever, just brush it off" "it's no big deal". that's right. It's not. For you.

But you're not her. Or him. Or them. And we can't decide what is or isn't painful for them. Only they can.

Why do I lock my doors at night? Because as civilized as we are, people fall through the cracks. But let's be realistic--almost everyone living in a detached house has their doors secured by a single deadbolt lock. And a huge proportion of these have doors with windows that are within reach of the lock (either in the doors or beside). So I could go up to the house and with about 15 seconds' more work, break in to your house.

Why lock my doors? Because the insurance company says if I do then I'm okay. Hooray! Sadly, such a similarity doesn't exist with daughters.

Why do Fathers worry about or are they protective of their daughters? Because parents are protective of their children. I'm not a girl, but my parents took serious issue when I would come home late or not tell them what was going on. And this was back in the days before cellphones; now that it's possible for parents to have constant communication, it's even more worrying when your kids CAN but DON'T communicate with you.

The issue I take with the fear-psychology people is the idea that any behaviour can be excused simply by saying "well, we're programmed for it, so...too bad". That implies that anyone can do anything and just say "whoops, base instincts. Gotta let me go, right?". Bullshit. The sad truth of it is that laws treat everyone as equals even though not everyone is; some people are better educated and come from more fortunate backgrounds, others less so. People are given vastly different opportunities and chances and places in life yet are judged in the same manner in the court of law. If the courts turn to the lowest common denominator, then nobody wins. Does this mean that Pickton should be excused because everyone who owns a pig farm can easily dispose of bodies, which means that of course he'd go out raping women? What about abusive husbands? Of course he's going to punch his pregnant wife in the face--she didn't get his beer fast enough.

Crime cannot be blamed on the victims. Some crimes can be used as methods to help others realize how not to become victims themselves, but if we say that a crime is the fault of the victim... What a sorry state things have come to then.

^ oh man, that is an awesome post! Would thank 1000 times if possible.

While I may seem to be this massive left-wing nutjob on the edge of being a feminazi here, I've actually been criticized multiple times for being a misogyist. You see, on my phone I have a not-inconsiderable collection of scantily clad girls who frequently go through rotation as my phone's wallpaper. This is important background for the story.

You see, there's a friend of mine I used to work with--she's a really good foil for me in person. While I'm a heathen, she's a hard-core Christ-y. She's straight up and direct and blunt, and I try to be more diplomatic. We make a good team. However, she is more than decently endowed. Now, for me I see this as a good thing; I would often comment on it as a way of complimenting her. She, however, didn't see it this way. And I didn't get that. She made a fuss when I'd comment on it, and I had thought that it was her way of acting as though she didn't want the compliment (and/or fishing for more). So I kept it up.

Then one day, as usual, I did a teensy bit of teasing her on it. And then, to my shock and surprise, she came back with a very personal fact that I had told her; not a secret exactly, but something that I had told her in confidence and had asked her to keep private. And she snapped it back at me. At work. In public. Where everyone was listening.

At that point, I had a choice in reactions. Typically what would happen is someone would go "What the fuck bitch, I told you that in confidence, how could you shout that out?" But of course, I'm hardly typical.

So what did I do? I shut the fuck up. I stopped dead. And I thought to myself, "Holy shit. She just said that to me--she must know that this thing that I don't tell everyone bothers me. Is this how I've been making her feel? Is what I've been saying the same emotional register as what she just said to me?"

And from that point on, I stopped. I dropped it. Because what's right there and obvious and easily talked about by some is something that is a slap in the face and a kick to the balls to others. One person can't judge another person's emotional intensity, in the same way that one person can't judge another's pain tolerance. When I was a kid I had gallstones--supposedly one of the most painful things one can experience, and according to one of my mother's friends even worse than childbirth. I had gallstone pain from around 5AM. But I got up, went to school, and got sent home (not of my own volition, the teacher kicked me out because he said I didn't look well enough to be there). My mom took me to the hospital at 3 and I had surgery that night. I had that stabbing pain for probably about...15 hours? Very not fun. And yeah, I cried. Twice. But the doctor told my uncle (who I trust to tell me the truth more than my parents) that he was amazed I was keeping it together. Most people couldn't.

So when people say "whatever, just brush it off" "it's no big deal". that's right. It's not. For you.

But you're not her. Or him. Or them. And we can't decide what is or isn't painful for them. Only they can.

This really resonated with me. I'm terrible at reading cues and I have paid dearly for it in the past. I hope you're doing better in life Graeme.

Using different analogies in an attempt to unload some of the blame onto a victim, in my opinion, is not right.

We wouldn't say a victim of a drunk driver needs to take a little responsibility because he or she just happened to be out driving at 1am on a Saturday night (assumed to be a time where more drunk drivers were on the road).

We also wouldn't say a person walking across a cross walk at night needed to take some accountability because a speeding and\or distracted driver ran them over.

To break down these situations of rape and attempt to ascribe any form of blame on the victim lessens at act itself. When we lessen the act of rape, it becomes more "acceptable" in certain situations:

"hey man, she was wearing a really short skirt....AND she was alone....AND she was drunk! In a way, she was TOTALLY asking for it!! I just did what I thought she wanted. Not my fault she was too drunk to say 'no'. I'm a man! Its in my DNA to do it!"

she's a small hen and jumped into a tiger's den. the tigers mauled her.

i'm saying im gonna bet the tigers are gonna maul her 9/10 times.
i'd bet all my money on the tigers every single time.

you'd call someone an idiot for travelling to afghanistan for fun in 2002 and getting themselves blown up. you would totally blame the guy for being in the wrong place and making the wrong choices and not thinking shit through and taking the precautions to protect himself.

this is the same thing.

the only thing i don't think should have happened is the pictures being taken and distributed. but that's the nature of the tiger, so im not surprised either.

i just think if they kept what happened in the tigers den, in the den. and not spread the pics, everything would be ok.

it has nothing to do with "rape".

it could be a picture of her in some very very embarrassing non sexual way. and she probably still woulda killed herself.

i don't know how i can make any more obvious analogies.
you decide to walk on the train tracks with headphones on, you're gonna get crushed.

__________________nipples neways...wat is with those fuck'n asians! i mean you would think they've never seen a dentist in their life. are dentists really that rare over there in ricey ricey and? looks like they're star trek ferrengi rejects! fuck'n have broken glass for teeth! goddaymn! and the smell....did a rat crawl in there and shit itself then marinate in its own shit as it decayed?ewwwwwwwwww! i swear...if one of those ferrengi asian girls gave head...when u pull the dick out it looks like it went thru a meat grinder! prolly shaved off a few slices of meat! *shudder*Greebo i t-boned some guy and killed their baby, it was funnysilvia i have a couple asian guy friends that do very well with the ladies. but guess what, they go to the gym, they dont have long hair, they dont wear orange pants, and they dont play counterstrike. its not the ethnicity that the girls dont like, its the style and personality.450HP Supra I am about to use your eye sockets as a shoe rack for my nuts. ...something about chinks, j-bodys, I can't quite remember as I was drunk and looking for a girl to punch in the clit. Think of it as a digital urinal, and you are the mint, except, instead of actually smelling mint, you smell like mothballs, rotten kimchee and virginity. I'm about to start drinking heavily now and you better be gone before I get back or I swear to god I will break the internet over my knee and use the pieces to beat you in the deformed skull with, cock muffler.Iceman-19 If your gf cooks and cleans, good, tell the guy to take a fucking hike. If she doesnt, fuck, that joker can have her. Lifes too short to cook your own meals and do your own laundry, thats what women are for! http://ho316.tumblr.com

Using different analogies in an attempt to unload some of the blame onto a victim, in my opinion, is not right.

We wouldn't say a victim of a drunk driver needs to take a little responsibility because he or she just happened to be out driving at 1am on a Saturday night (assumed to be a time where more drunk drivers were on the road).

We also wouldn't say a person walking across a cross walk at night needed to take some accountability because a speeding and\or distracted driver ran them over.

To break down these situations of rape and attempt to ascribe any form of blame on the victim lessens at act itself. When we lessen the act of rape, it becomes more "acceptable" in certain situations:

"hey man, she was wearing a really short skirt....AND she was alone....AND she was drunk! In a way, she was TOTALLY asking for it!! I just did what I thought she wanted. Not my fault she was too drunk to say 'no'. I'm a man! Its in my DNA to do it!"

that's a bit off... because the victims in the accidents you pointed out were following the rules of safety and keeping it in the norm

what you describe next, of a girl in a short skirt and being alone, that's more like someone jogging at night in black clothes on the road and getting hit by a drunk driver and Im sure you're reaction to that would be "wow that's so sad; what a fucking idiot" (as we've seen countless times by people in RS in other topics)

another note your comments in here have been from the point of view that judgement has already been passed down and the girl was raped and the boys were guilty of gang rape

can you see the gigantic leap you did from reality to your views? charges haven't even been laid let alone a trial and conviction and you've immediately accepted the mothers' allegations as if they've been proven and are now facts
do you understand how dangerous that is?! seriously my mind is blown from this thread at how people are so quick to convict others especially when there are only allegations by a third party available

that's a bit off... because the victims in the accidents you pointed out were following the rules of safety and keeping it in the norm

what you describe next, of a girl in a short skirt and being alone, that's more like someone jogging at night in black clothes on the road and getting hit by a drunk driver and Im sure you're reaction to that would be "wow that's so sad; what a fucking idiot" (as we've seen countless times by people in RS in other topics)

another note your comments in here have been from the point of view that judgement has already been passed down and the girl was raped and the boys were guilty of gang rape

can you see the gigantic leap you did from reality to your views? charges haven't even been laid let alone a trial and conviction and you've immediately accepted the mothers' allegations as if they've been proven and are now facts
do you understand how dangerous that is?! seriously my mind is blown from this thread at how people are so quick to convict others especially when there are only allegations by a third party available

Let me clarify, I am not talking about this specific case. Nobody knows what happened that night except for the people involved. I understand that at this point, it is all speculation and we will know now the details until the investigation is complete.

When I post here and share my opinion about rape, it is specifically about rape in general and NOT this specific case.

According to statistics, there are 4,400 teen suicides in the USA each year.

Why is the whole world fixated on this one? This and Amanda Todd? What about the fat ugly kid who got picked apart and then killed himself?

Maybe I'm the minority about what about innocent until proven guilty? Do we actually have any concrete evidence she was raped? Who knows, are you willing to put people behind bars based on 'your feeling'? We don't know the entire story? Or, if someone does, could they enlighten me?

Sorry, I just feel there is so much charged emotion with this story, and I just want to take a step back to examine the entire situation for myself.

Have a look at some of her twitter pictures, for example, she tweeted a picture of weed on the naked body of a dude. Who knows, she could have been consenting to some freaky stuff. Just putting the possibility out there.

According to statistics, there are 4,400 teen suicides in the USA each year.

Why is the whole world fixated on this one? This and Amanda Todd? What about the fat ugly kid who got picked apart and then killed himself?

Maybe I'm the minority about what about innocent until proven guilty? Do we actually have any concrete evidence she was raped? Who knows, are you willing to put people behind bars based on 'your feeling'? We don't know the entire story? Or, if someone does, could they enlighten me?

Sorry, I just feel there is so much charged emotion with this story, and I just want to take a step back to examine the entire situation for myself.

Have a look at some of her twitter pictures, for example, she tweeted a picture of weed on the naked body of a dude. Who knows, she could have been consenting to some freaky stuff. Just putting the possibility out there.

According to statistics, there are 4,400 teen suicides in the USA each year.

Why is the whole world fixated on this one? This and Amanda Todd? What about the fat ugly kid who got picked apart and then killed himself?

Maybe I'm the minority about what about innocent until proven guilty? Do we actually have any concrete evidence she was raped? Who knows, are you willing to put people behind bars based on 'your feeling'? We don't know the entire story? Or, if someone does, could they enlighten me?

Sorry, I just feel there is so much charged emotion with this story, and I just want to take a step back to examine the entire situation for myself.

Have a look at some of her twitter pictures, for example, she tweeted a picture of weed on the naked body of a dude. Who knows, she could have been consenting to some freaky stuff. Just putting the possibility out there.

According to statistics, there are 4,400 teen suicides in the USA each year.

Why is the whole world fixated on this one? This and Amanda Todd? What about the fat ugly kid who got picked apart and then killed himself?

Maybe I'm the minority about what about innocent until proven guilty? Do we actually have any concrete evidence she was raped? Who knows, are you willing to put people behind bars based on 'your feeling'? We don't know the entire story? Or, if someone does, could they enlighten me?

Sorry, I just feel there is so much charged emotion with this story, and I just want to take a step back to examine the entire situation for myself.

Have a look at some of her twitter pictures, for example, she tweeted a picture of weed on the naked body of a dude. Who knows, she could have been consenting to some freaky stuff. Just putting the possibility out there.