I well remember that number 58 was never... and was changed. I think the explanation of why it should be of that number. Also it is a set if any explanation ... That is why I am asking for an explanation on the 58.

Here is a good start:

vickingo_73 wrote: MENT 58? I WAS always know That this weak historical point, But Also His Taking Into account not high STA Is not too much harsh? : | I Could enjoy a lot of games Of That was, and I'm pretty sure I Could Have That the 90 'and in important games in the last minutes and I Was not That crap, With That MENT Value must be the worst ever in PSD, too much Seems unreal. WHat do you think?

I've never realized that number until my comment, All here knows that the worst thing/part of Ortega's gameplay is his mentality. I admire him always (until now that he's crap because his alcoholic problem and may be since 2009 he lost his credibility) and must be one of the players here more loved by the impartial man. I know that he also is recognized by Boca's fans (pretty difficult in our country, similar to Palermo's example but less), and I could (despite be young) enjoy his awesomes matches in this era, it was...just incredible the things that he did in the field...totally unpredictable. I watched River only for him, and may be Aimar, but Ortega had something special in his way of playing, I tried to copy all my life his movements, but are just impossible to reply. I say, I remember lots of games finished by him and in good form (in that era, he was alcoholic but he was younger, so didn't affect as since 2006-2007 probably), and with those numbers 80-58 (!) in STA/MENT he can't finish in a good form in Pes 2011.

with 80 in STA a player like him who moves a lot can't finisht eh matches in good form... at least in PES 2011 for PCor maybe i understand other thing to "finish well the matches", what's finish in good form the matches to you?

jurgens wrote:I don't even know what your trying to say. He plays fine even in the second half of extra time. Stamina isnt a big deal if 2011... players play great even with low stamina in the dieing mins.

I meant to say (I missed the "way" word), in a decent way.

BTW, I'll try to convince you with other point of view. Until now, all classic players created in the database (all positions) has a higher value than 65 (the worst is Romario who has a point higher his STA (81)), and in the whole PSD global all positions ladder, there's a guy with 63 in Croatia, which is the worst in mentality nowadays. Is there so huge difference between Ortega's mentality and those guys? Because with 58 is the worst of the worst in all the history.I'm not saying that he deserves a green value, but at least I don't know, 68-70 ratio, it's an exaggeration that number. What do you think?

There is no classic ladder mate, the one on the main site has only less than 400 players, and the old ones have very little as well, and are too outdated for use, don't make this a bigger deal than what it is. And I'm either missing the whole point of the debate, or you want us to raise the level of mentality of a player 10 points more, and all your arguments are he tires in game and he has the lower mentality value in the site?

Nope. For that reason I said: "All classic players created in the database", I know that are more or less 400, do you really think that Ortega FOR example is 7 points below Romario in terms of MENT? I don't know how many complete games you had the posibility to watch Ortega in River in 2000-2001, I'm talking with knowledge. I'm not trying to make this bigger deal what it's, I'm discussing a superlow and IMO absurd value as you said, explaning and giving arguments. Also I don't know which are the real arguments of this superlow value, I'd like to read it too. Also, Julgui is asking the same thing which I'm asking, nothing more. Sounds totally strange and without sense that value to Ortega in those days, His lack of good mentality always was his worse problem, but I think that when he was younger (between 2000-2001) he made more about his tireness aptitude, I say, He never was a player with great condition, always unprepared and with alcoholic problems, BTW, his loveness to River and his "proper love" (I don't know if it's exactly the way to translate "amor propio") made counteract when he was tired and run only for the team, because he always wanted to stay in River, EVEN when he was in Europe, his heart always was in River. For that reason, now he's fighted with Passarella (chairman of River) because he didn't want to Ortega's back in 2010. What do you say?

I haven't watched a lot of him, thus I haven't commented at all about the ongoing debate, unlike some, in some chases when I don't know a lot about something, I forbid myself from updating/argumenting. I just pointed out that you were making a big deal while writting this:

Because with 58 is the worst of the worst in all the history.

And as I also pointed out, your only arguments to support raising the mentality value by 10 points were "he tires in game" and "he is the worst ever in mentality", now that it seems you put some logic at your comments, you can continue arguing with jurgens.

I'd like to hear Uzairs reasoning on giving him mentality 58, most of his sets and values are great, some of the best in the classic database, I'm sure he had his reasons. I know a little of ortega and now he was a lazy fuck and never defended at all.. so I can understand why he has this value.

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

LeMisérable wrote:im not mad, why should I be mad just because of you, your nothing, 1 in 7 billion, i mean dude

Albo7 wrote:And as I also pointed out, your only arguments to support raising the mentality value by 10 points were "he tires in game" and "he is the worst ever in mentality", now that it seems you put some logic at your comments, you can continue arguing with jurgens.

Well, nice, there is some:

vickingo_73 wrote:do you really think that Ortega FOR example is 7 points below Romario in terms of MENT? Sounds totally strange and without sense that value to Ortega in those days, His lack of good mentality always was his worse problem, but I think that when he was younger (between 2000-2001) he made more about his tireness aptitude, I say, He never was a player with great condition, always unprepared and with alcoholic problems, BTW, his loveness to River and his "proper love" (I don't know if it's exactly the way to translate "amor propio") made counteract when he was tired and run only for the team, because he always wanted to stay in River, EVEN when he was in Europe, his heart always was in River.

jurgens wrote:I'd like to hear Uzairs reasoning on giving him mentality 58, most of his sets and values are great, some of the best in the classic database, I'm sure he had his reasons. I know a little of ortega and now he was a lazy fuck and never defended at all.. so I can understand why he has this value.

Ok, nice to read it, I'll hope that opinion, but I'm pretty sure that it's better than the current, and I also think that he's one of the best classic members/posters ever.

xeneize wrote:to me some stats are high to 2000/2001 erai feel his TS/ACC/AGI/DA/DS and maybe ATT for the ortega of the 1998 without doubts IMO the actual set is a mixture of the ortega of the 98 (BAL/TS/ACC/AGI/DA/DS) and the ortega of the 2001 (passes stats, shoot stats and CURL for example) is not completely for 2000/2001 ortega

is not a pure set of teh 2001 to me, is a mixture of 98 and 2001 without doubts

Today Ortega played (he's playing in Defensores de Belgrano, 3rd category of AFA), and the TV showed that match. He has nothing to do with 2000-2001 era. If in that era he is rated with 58 in MENT, the current Ortega should have something like 40, really, would be great if someone could get some matches of 2000 era and watch the current, may be now Ortega deserves 60 in MENT, but in that era for sure not. Here is the current Ariel and my opinion of his current level: Ariel ORTEGA, please try to watch his current numbers.