did you laser align the gun with the center of the target? silly question i know, but your results make me think of a comment a guy made about a rifled paintball barrel (i t might have been on here) the rifling seemed to make the ball more consistant (closer grouping) but not more accurate, the grouping was always off to a side of the target.

with a real rifle you make minor adjustments after you fired a few rounds. But in this case he only has a very limited quantity so making minor adjustments would mess with the overall data that he was trying to acheive.

Understand haters are gonna hate you regardless. Get that outta your head, where haters aren't hating on you. You got to be grateful, you need haters. What are you complaining about, what do you think a haters job is. To hate! So let them do there job!

did you laser align the gun with the center of the target? silly question i know, but your results make me think of a comment a guy made about a rifled paintball barrel (i t might have been on here) the rifling seemed to make the ball more consistant (closer grouping) but not more accurate, the grouping was always off to a side of the target.

I had no intention to hit the center of the target - that wasn't important. I just needed to keep the aim point constant - then the spread tells us about the accuracy of these rounds.

hey bryce, could you just take out the bolt on your sniper, put a round in the back, then slide your bolt in, having your bolt push the ball into the barral? wouldnt that be better than taking off the barrel?

If these rounds only show an improvement of a fraction of an inch over normal balls at 75ft, then that is virtually identical to the results you got from the backspin bolt tests IIRC..............

yes, the backspin was about an inch higher on average. I hesitate to compare this to that test until I have a larger sample size of regular paint to first strike rounds. having a sample size of only 8 means that one high flyer on the regular paint could skew the results to a much greater degree than at a higher sample size.

However, there is a big difference - and that was the apparent velocity at range. I may shoot the paint again today to get video of the time to impact - but the first strike seemed to arrive at the target much more quickly - while the backspin didn't.

I think I'll just go shoot my garage - then I can look at the audio track of the first strike and the paint - and see how much faster the first strike was going at impact.

If these rounds only show an improvement of a fraction of an inch over normal balls at 75ft, then that is virtually identical to the results you got from the backspin bolt tests IIRC..............

yes, the backspin was about an inch higher on average. I hesitate to compare this to that test until I have a larger sample size of regular paint to first strike rounds. having a sample size of only 8 means that one high flyer on the regular paint could skew the results to a much greater degree than at a higher sample size.

However, there is a big difference - and that was the apparent velocity at range. I may shoot the paint again today to get video of the time to impact - but the first strike seemed to arrive at the target much more quickly - while the backspin didn't.

I think I'll just go shoot my garage - then I can look at the audio track of the first strike and the paint - and see how much faster the first strike was going at impact.

Do you have a copy of Goldwave? If not, there is a free download of it. That should give you a highly accurate way of measuring the time between fire and strike.. I might be tempted to put the mic (camera) near the target so you can get the bang of the gun and thwack of the round on target.

And these are two completley different modes of operation here. They can't be compared by the same method of time-to target.

Edited by Jack Wood, 15 February 2009 - 11:30 AM.

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Do you have a copy of Goldwave? If not, there is a free download of it. That should give you a highly accurate way of measuring the time between fire and strike.. I might be tempted to put the mic (camera) near the target so you can get the bang of the gun and thwack of the round on target.

And these are two completley different modes of operation here. They can't be compared by the same method of time-to target.

If I do it I'll set the rig up to match the shots that I got yesterday. I suppose if I get really crazy I can even account for the speed of sound at 30 deg. F to shorten the time to target.

I've got plenty of audio editing software - I work in theatre and live event production - I spend way too much time in front of my computer with my headphones on.

and yes, trying to draw parallels between these rounds and backspin is a dangerous thing. These rounds are obviously a superior projectile to a ball - regardless of what you do to that ball as you fire it. There's a very good reason that bullets gained the shape they did - and rifled barrels took over from smooth-bore guns shooting balls. They just work better.

The real question with these rounds - as CockerPunk said in his video - isn't if they really work - it's how they'll be used and allowed in games.

I'm one of those guys that after 10+ years playing paintball has a really good sense of when they other guys can actually hit me. I had to re-adjust a bit when the flatline came out - but not too much since they're going so slow at range. I'll be the guy standing in the open just outside of reliable shooting range in a game yelling at the other team - because it's fun. Mix in two guys on that other team hauling Tiberius guns and I'll have to start to re-think that.

I dunno if they'll catch on and the FPO thing is going to be a big stumbling block - but they're certainly fun to shoot.

a little off topic but I watched the vid that CP just did on his opinion on these and he said they are plastic? how is that going to work out in the woods? gelatin breaks down over time and after a while is completely absorbed into the woods, these will be laying around in little fragments for who knows how long... I think they are going to find resistance from land owners if they cant find a solution to that.... or maybe Im way off base here

Just a non-technical comment: I would be very surprised if field owners that have FPO rules disallowed them for use. People who use these rounds aren't going to be using a lot of them due to the price and the projected profit margin loss from allowing their use would be so negligible that it wouldn't be worth pissing off players by banning their use on FPO fields.

I'm sure scenario producers that only allow event paint would not care much.

<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Mike Phillips: "Pound for pound - Bob Long Vice, one of the best guns on the market...ever! This gun is absolutely absurd."<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

and he wasn't testing the bore of the barrel or anything, just comparing accuracy.

Sorry, I confuse the two of you a lot..

But yeah, I didn't have a table nearby, but I guessed it would have been very small

last summer my internship was about super high tolerances boring and other machining. were talking hitting .000005 targets with machining operations. so i practically have all the thermal coefficients memorized.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

Gordon, what are your thoughts now on going back and looking at backspin bolts at longer ranges? Considering that at 75 foot the FS round yielded almost identical longituninal gains as the backsping bolts which you condemned as "statistically insignificant"?

Edited by Jack Wood, 16 February 2009 - 06:07 AM.

I hereby declare that I work for Planet Eclipse LtdI live in England.I work in England.I am English.Eclipse Owners Club V2

Bryce, how does your coordinate system work? I assume that 0,0 is dead center and positive X values go to the right, negative X values to the left. The same with positive Y values being up and negative values being down? Is this just an assumed coordinate system and what is the unit of measure (inches)?

I think these are important if one wanted to plot out each trajectory. Looking at these in a three dimensional view may also be important factors considering that the Tiberius paintballs may fly in a different manner than a conventional paintball.

So tempted to suspend Kitty just so I can say I have....Okay, fuck it....I just banned Kitty, that's going in the sig.

I'm one of those guys that after 10+ years playing paintball has a really good sense of when they other guys can actually hit me. I had to re-adjust a bit when the flatline came out - but not too much since they're going so slow at range. I'll be the guy standing in the open just outside of reliable shooting range in a game yelling at the other team - because it's fun. Mix in two guys on that other team hauling Tiberius guns and I'll have to start to re-think that.

My thoughts exactly. I've found one of the best ways to inspire enough confidence in bunch of new players is to be bold and stand out in the open so they can see it CAN be done.

I count one of my finest moments jumping out into the open and creating a skirmish line that squashed an enemy charge into our position at the D-Day field. They had to go straight through MY valley, and I was damned sure that I wasn't going to let that happen.

Gordon, what are your thoughts now on going back and looking at backspin bolts at longer ranges? Considering that at 75 foot the FS round yielded almost identical longituninal gains as the backsping bolts which you condemned as "statistically insignificant"?

I'd also like to see that compared to the "trajectory calculator"...the backspin doesn't tend to affect drop too much until later in flight.

i know you looked at bolts a while back but would a venturi vs other style bolts have a different effect on these? and would a rifled barrel work better for these?

The lesson here is love your gun dont give a shit about what people say about it.. if it fits you keep it if not move on. I get enough crap from kids who think autocockers are shit when most have never shot one. Every angel I ever shot was smooth but they were out of my range so i went with an autococker instead. Now I have a couple and they are my babies. Love the sport Love your gun whatever it may be and Love yourself .. maybe not in that order. CockerOwnerClub

I'm going to say that the bolt isn't going to matter - you're basically blowing into a cup - there's already a large pocket in front of the bolt when the air comes out - so I can't imagine open v venturi really mattering.

As for rifled barrels - there's really no point. I suppose a barrel with the same twist in the same direction may work - but anything else is just going to interfere with the spin that's designed to start up when the round leaves the barrel.

I'm one of those guys that after 10+ years playing paintball has a really good sense of when they other guys can actually hit me. I had to re-adjust a bit when the flatline came out - but not too much since they're going so slow at range. I'll be the guy standing in the open just outside of reliable shooting range in a game yelling at the other team - because it's fun. Mix in two guys on that other team hauling Tiberius guns and I'll have to start to re-think that.

Hehe... I do that too, except I find it fun to sing really obnoxious songs... such as the barney song... I also try to get just close enough I can catch them every now and then, then just pop in my feed tube on the phantom and return fire! I have also learned to hate evil... as it is very hard to catch intact.

But I only have 6 years of experience...

There's two kinds of people in this world when you boil it all down. You got your talkers and you got your doers. Most people are just talkers, all they do is talk. But when it is all said and done, it's the doers that change this world. And when they do that, they change us, and that's why we never forget them. So which one are you? Do you just talk about it, or do you stand up and do something about it?

.....Will they work with a rifled barrel?
.....Which direction do the fins turn in? (Right or Left)
.....What angle are the fins cut at?
.....What angle and direction are most rifled barrels grooves? (for paintball)
.....Will the rounds work better with a rifled barrel?
.....Has a rifled barrel been tested with the rounds?
.....Does a smooth bore barrel work better with the rounds?
.....What sized barrel bore work best with the rounds?

Just a few questions to add to your tests if at all possible.

One other thing that I was wondering about is how do the magazines work with these rounds and which magazines work with them as I may end up making a bolt action magazine fed cocker to work with the rounds - just for fun.

I am new to the PunkWorks section of the TechPB Forums however I am interested in contributing to this section as must as possible. If you guys need anything to which I may be able to help with just let me know (you guys = CockerPunk & BryceLarson)

i know you looked at bolts a while back but would a venturi vs other style bolts have a different effect on these? and would a rifled barrel work better for these?

there is alot of talk about rifled barrels and these, and i have been waiting until we can get the highspeed going on these because i wonder alot.

in mind mind, the fins dont cause the spin while the paintball is IN the barrel.

the fins impart there spin when the ball is flying through the ambient air.

now, i want to get the highspeed to confirm that, but that is what i think.

I predict that if the Tiberius First Strike rounds do spin in the barrel that it is because there is just enough space within the barrel to allow the movement in a spiraling motion. However, I have not seen the rounds in person yet so I do not know for sure if the rounds' fins have an angle on them or if they are straight in line with the flight path. If they are straight then I predict no spin in the barrel and if they are angled then there might be a slight spin signature within the barrel if there is enough space around the round within the barrel to allow it (I would think that it depends on how much pressure or squeeze there is on the round from the barrel.)

Otherwise there would only be spin once the round exits the barrel and again if the rounds' fins are angled there would be spin once in the air otherwise if they are straight there would be spin due to ambient temperature (such as warm air rising from the ground and cool air dropping from the air) as well as any trace of wind.

As far as magazine design goes for these rounds - there are real examples of other firearms (lethal sorts) that have magazines that the Q-loader resembles that I believe would work great for these if there were only small modifications done to them as well as to the breach of any paintball marker... just some other thoughts that came to my mind.

I'm one of those guys that after 10+ years playing paintball has a really good sense of when they other guys can actually hit me. I had to re-adjust a bit when the flatline came out - but not too much since they're going so slow at range. I'll be the guy standing in the open just outside of reliable shooting range in a game yelling at the other team - because it's fun. Mix in two guys on that other team hauling Tiberius guns and I'll have to start to re-think that.

Hehe... I do that too, except I find it fun to sing really obnoxious songs... such as the barney song... I also try to get just close enough I can catch them every now and then, then just pop in my feed tube on the phantom and return fire! I have also learned to hate evil... as it is very hard to catch intact.

But I only have 6 years of experience...

I like picking up those rounds that happen to fall at my feet, and try to return them to their owner.

Gordon, what are your thoughts now on going back and looking at backspin bolts at longer ranges? Considering that at 75 foot the FS round yielded almost identical longituninal gains as the backsping bolts which you condemned as "statistically insignificant"?

yeah we have some backspin stuff lined up at longer ranges. im not really seeing a connection between this and that though ...

The connection is that you openly dismissed backspin bolts as not making a significant difference at 75 foot to added range. Yet here we are looking at the FS round that displayed the same statistical difference of Y-axis strike-point on the target at 75 foot with a round that is claimed to shoot 50% (or something) further and we're jumping all over it.

I just think it would be doing the backspin sytems a real injustice to not have the opportunity to be tested in the same way as the FS rounds.

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