In typical American families, parents display photos of their teenagers — innocent yearbook shots and department store portraits — on the mantel of along the stairway wall.

But there’s nothing typical about the Kardashians: Matriarch “momager” Kris Jenner is drawing fire for allowing Kendall, 16, and Kylie, 14 — her daughters with second husband Bruce — to be photographed in precociously sexy attire.

Do a Google image search and you’ll find pages of bare skin, such as in Kendall’s erotically-charged swimwear spreads for the Australian brand White Sands, and Flavor, a Parisian magazine that, uh, has nothing to do with recipes.

Here’s one of the unintended consequences of our society’s encouragement of a Neverendering, NeverNever Land of adolescence: when men and women are allowed to remain teenagers in their level of maturity then they carry with them their teenage sexual attractions and attitudes. And of course markets arise to fulfill those needs. So sexual images of children become further mainstreamed.

There is only one group on this planet who should be looking at Kendall and Kylie Jenner with any manner of erotic desire: other 14 and 16 year-olds. (And they don’t need pictures to do it.) That’s puberty. A burst of hormones that provokes both physical transformations and strong emotions. The natural tendency is to see members of the opposite sex as objects to satisfy these new lusts. Of secondary importance: grasping the emotional, physical, and new-person-on-the-planet consequences of acting on those feelings.

But as we grow older and mature beyond the shock of puberty we’re supposed to transcend this animal nature. (See point #2 here in my review of Dennis Prager’s new book Still the Best Hope for more on the subject.)

A question for the men out there: at what moment in your life did you stop finding young women attractive? (And I don’t mean just jailbait. I mean 18-22-year-old — legal — but still looking young and girly.) When did the thought of youthful sex shift from a fantasy to a stomach-churning nightmare? When did the natural thought shift from “mmm… good time” to “I wonder what the daughter I have someday will look like at that age?” When did you stop being attracted to “sexy” girls and only interested in mature women?

Do women have this same dichotomy? A change in being attracted to serious men vs exciting boys?

And what role does the culture have in all this? What are the consequences for demeaning grown-up, married people sexuality while celebrating moms flashing their nipples on stage?

I suppose all of this relates in a round-about way to PJ Lifestyle’s recent debates about whether to have children:

David Swindle is the associate editor of PJ Media. He writes and edits articles and blog posts on politics, news, culture, religion, and entertainment. He edits the PJ Lifestyle section and the PJ columnists. Contact him at DaveSwindlePJM @ Gmail.com and follow him on Twitter @DaveSwindle.
He has worked full-time as a writer, editor, blogger, and New Media troublemaker since 2009, at PJ Media since 2011. He graduated with a degree in English (creative writing emphasis) and political science from Ball State University in 2006. Previously he's also worked as a freelance writer for The Indianapolis Star and the film critic for WTHR.com. He lives in Los Angeles with his wife and their Siberian Husky puppy Maura.

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43 Comments, 19 Threads

1.
Charlie Martin

When do cute and sexy young girls stop looking cute and sexy? Death. Maybe after, the reports aren’t in.

The author seems to think there is no distinction between enjoying the sight of a lovely young woman and wanting to have sex with her.

I’ll be turning 60 shortly, and I enjoy the sight of pretty women of any age. My brain was wired that way. But that does not mean I walk around panting with my tongue hanging out like a Tex Avery cartoon wolf.

When I go to the zoo, I enjoy looking at the big cats. They’re incredibly beautiful animals. But I’m perfectly happy to watch them; I do not fantasize about taking them home and having them curl up on my lap while I read. I look at young women with the same detached aethetic appreciation.

I will continue to girl-watch until my heartbeat or eyesight gives out.

1. Do you enjoy the sight of lovely young men who you have no desire to have sex with in the same way?
2. Girls are not big cats at the zoo.
3. Thoughts and fantasy have a way of leading to reality.
4. Just because something is “natural” it does mean that it’s good or that we should not try to rise above it.

“No. I’m heterosexual.”
Exactly my point. You obviously don’t look at girls the same way you look at cats. If you did then you’d be able to admire men’s beauty the same way.

“Really? Then when do I become a concert pianist?”
When you fantasize on it long enough.

“Then the next time you’re hungry I suggest you rise above it.”
I try to — by eating fruits and vegetables and other healthy foods instead of McDonald’s. I’m arguing that men should do the same thing with sex. Rise above their natures.

More like it explains how the communicators in Star Trek are the cell phones of today. And many scientists talk about how Star Trek inspired them to become scientists. And how the fantasies I had as a child of being a writer are now a reality.

In more primitive cultures around the world, 14-16 year old girls are the prime marrying age. I’m not saying that 40-year-old American men should be marrying 14-year-old American girls. I’m saying that normal human biology causes us to see these beautiful young ladies as attractive.

“In more primitive cultures around the world, 14-16 year old girls are the prime marrying age. I’m not saying that 40-year-old American men should be marrying 14-year-old American girls. I’m saying that normal human biology causes us to see these beautiful young ladies as attractive.”

We’re not more primitive cultures any more. And normal human biology is something we are called to conquer and transcend. See my review of Prager’s book that I linked.

That’s not my point. My point is that tens of thousands of years of natural selection have caused us see nubile young women and react hormonally. Certainly our higher-order thought processes should prevent us from acting upon our instincts but the instincts are there nevertheless.

American prudishness. Teenage girls in bikinis is normal in any climate that supports it so long as the culture isn’t obsessed with controlling vaginas.

And yes, that does include southern California, Florida, and parts of the Gulf Coast. In more enlightened parts of the world, it’s not even considered sexual display. It’s called “enjoying the sun”, or even “swimming”. Or – horror of horrors – “modeling”.

Weirdly (or maybe not), so-called hedonistic Australia doesn’t have anything like the teen pregnancy rate the US does. Nor does it have anything like the abortion rate. This Australian reads this stuff and thinks “No wonder the USA is halfway down the S-bend and accelerating, if this is what passes for intelligent discourse.”

Dave, old sport, I’m so pleased that you are content with your self-righteous attitude, and that you’re transcendent. Keep it to yourself. The rest of us will continue to enjoy girls in their summer dresses.
“Girls lean back everywhere, showing lace and silk stockings; wear low-cut sleeveless blouses, breathless bathing suits; men think thoughts and have emotions about these things everywhere–seldom as delicately and imaginatively as Mr. Bloom–and no one is corrupted.” Jane Heap, 1920.

Q: At what moment in your life did you stop finding young women attractive?
A: I’m 48 and it still hasn’t happened yet.

Q: (And I don’t mean just jailbait. I mean 18-22-year-old — legal — but still looking young and girly.)
A: Thank you for the clarification. It does not change my answer.

Q: When did the thought of youthful sex shift from a fantasy to a stomach-churning nightmare?
A: A “stomach-churning nightmare?” Really? I can’t imagine that. You may be able to find medical help for that…

Q: When did the natural thought shift from “mmm… good time” to “I wonder what the daughter I have someday will look like at that age?”
A: The fact that you have labeled that shift “natural” means that you are already discounting all who disagree with you “unnatural” by implication. Shame on you.

Q: When did you stop being attracted to “sexy” girls and only interested in mature women?
A: “Only?” Never. Why in the world should one ever preclude the other?

Q: When did the natural thought shift from “mmm… good time” to “I wonder what the daughter I have someday will look like at that age?”
A: I’m terribly sorry; I misread the question. You were not saying that the shift was natural (thereby implying any lack of shift would be unnatural). You were asking when our AUTOMATIC or INSTINCTIVE or INSTANT or REFLEXIVE or FIRST or NORMAL response shift from the former reaction to the other. I apologize.
The answer to the question as it was actually asked is, “Again, I’m 48 and it still hasn’t happened yet.”

Q: At what moment in your life did you stop finding young women attractive? (And I don’t mean just jailbait. I mean 18-22-year-old — legal — but still looking young and girly.)
A: It hasn’t happened yet and I’m age 51.

Q: When did the thought of youthful sex shift from a fantasy to a stomach-churning nightmare?
A: For me, it hasn’t. YMMV.

Q: When did the natural thought shift from “mmm… good time” to “I wonder what the daughter I have someday will look like at that age?”
A: “Natural”?

Q: When did you stop being attracted to “sexy” girls and only interested in mature women?
A: That hasn’t happened. Too many “mature” women have far too much baggagefor me to want to deal with. To help you out, I understand Maureen Dowd is looking for someone. Perhaps you should date her.

How blessed we all are to have mayor Bloomberg concerned about what we drink and how much. But his honor is elbowed aside in this never ending prissy game of Can You Top This by the ever vigilant Dave Swindle who is more than happy to instruct “us” as to what it is proper to think, find attractive and fantasize about–by the way Dave I’m not censoring here but ridiculing. And, Dave, thanks for the heads up on the sisters, enjoyed, but how did those delightful little head-turners come to your attention?

Mary Shelly, one might recall was eighteen when she wrote “Frankenstein.” A story of a creature unloved by its creator, of science unmoored to any ethics; it speaks insightfully to us today. Are we to believe that Mary would have been an uninteresting companion at seventeen, fifteen, fourteen; and lets forego the building of a straw man by pretending to not know the difference between the word “companion” and “paramour?”

Last weekend I shot a nineteen year old, one of the most beautiful girls I’ve ever had in front of my camera. She wasn’t well educated (yet?) and didn’t have decades of experience but she was intelligent and perceptive. Given the gap in our ages it was like talking to a highly insightful person from another country! She was a charming and remarkable companion.

Censorship is as old as mythology, Prometheus was punished for giving fire to man. Censorship is based on a higher level of virtue than we of the unwashed multitude could ever aspire to.

Dave, you are a virtuous man. May I also remind you that Robespierre said that, “Terror is the natural emanation of virtue.”

When I ceased to be a teen-age boy, I ceased thinking about teen-age girls. They’re something out there in the world but that in sexual terms I find as interesting as a block of cement. That is because there are grown women in the world and it is a natural progression to go forward and not back. This is not rocket science or the subject of a thesis but normal life.

My understanding of these two young girls is that they are selling bikinis and fashion to other girls in their age group. I don’t see a problem with that. Although America has experienced a variety of cultural slippery slopes, the natural inclination of men and women to stay within their own age groups doesn’t seem to have been compromised. Let me know when concert halls are full of 50 year old men going to see teen age female pop stars and I’ll add a comment.

Men will look because men are men. It’s Kris Jenner who’s falling down on the job of raising daughters who can be respected. You might look twice at my attractive daughters, but what will keep your attention is their intelligence, wit, humor and goodness (oh, and some of them take after their mother so you might also get bowled over by their force of will-sorry).

There has never been a time where older men weren’t attracted to young women. The fact that the author seems shocked that this is so is rather surprising. By the time a female reaches the age of 14-15, she has physically matured into an adult and entering the prime of her childbearing years, even if our society still treats her as a child.

“There has never been a time where older men weren’t attracted to young women. The fact that the author seems shocked that this is so is rather surprising.”

Attraction to young women isn’t the problem, attraction to women acting like girls is the problem. I’m not shocked by anything. Just disgusted why I have to explain why it’s revolting that a mother is training her 14 and 16 year old daughters to follow in their older sister’s footsteps as a sex object.

I am still young (in my 69th year), but old enough to have learned a bit. Women around my age have always looked good to me. Once a woman of any age has looked good to me, the memory lingers. A great advantage of maturity is the constantly increasing range of marvelous women to behold. Venus does not lose her charms, but the ability to appreciate her in all her unfolding glory is worth the wait.

Well said Sir. Your experience is largely my own.
When I was but a tyke I had more than one crush on more than one teacher. Girls much younger than me were not attractive. Girls my own age were fascinating, though mysterious due to my own naivete. The upper range of women I find attractive continued to climb as I grew up and does so still today, though I am gaining on it. The lower range of women I find attractive has also continued to climb, though not nearly so fast. Thus, the range of women I find desirable has expanded.
I assume this is the true way of life and expect it will continue on as I continue to age.

I feel that this conversation has avoided a critical issue: Technology.

Fashion technology used to mean bleaching leather with ammonia secured from one’s own urine to make lighter colored clothing or sewing shells and beads to one’s outfits so you clinked as you walked. Makeup technology meant using soot to darken around one’s eyes, mud to darken one’s hair or henna or lemon juice to lighten it. It also meant staying in shade if you didn’t have to work so your skin would not be tanned, thus demonstrating your wealth and ability not to have to work. How very far we’ve come.

Since health and youth have always meant fertility, older women have always used whatever technology was available to them to look younger. How young? As young as they can. Young girls, too, have always availed themselves of whatever technology was available so they could look older and more mature (fertile), and thus desirable. How old? As old as they can. My Mother has spoken of pinching her cheeks to make them red before she was allowed to wear makeup and of secretly shortening her skirts as much as she thought she could without her parents noticing.

Fashion and makeup professionals today have unbelievable tools available to them and making a sixteen year old look like she’s in her twenties is child’s play for them. This confuses the limbic signals I am genetically programmed for and the social signals I am culturally trained for. If the girl LOOKS legal, dammit, then I’m SUPPOSED to be attracted!

Add to that the increasing complexity of advanced society and the fact that we keep raising what we feel the “proper” age of consent should be in civilized nations, and the simple biological urges – the proper and normal and natural impulses upon which the human race has depended for all its existence – are now being decried as abominable. This is unfair to men.

Since man first began to use tools he has had to put aside instinct and use his intellect to override his animal nature. As we continue to progress, the decisions we face become more complex and more difficult. We must take responsibility for our behavior. We are not mere animals. The legal fiction of a one single proper “age of consent” is just that. We decide what it will be, and we change it from one generation to the next (upward, ever upward). We should obey it and respect and act accordingly – for many reasons – but to pretend that it should somehow come naturally and automatically – easily – is ridiculous.

“When did the thought of youthful sex shift from a fantasy to a stomach-churning nightmare?”

This idicates the author has urges concerning scantily clad 14 year old girls that he finds difficult to contain. For thoughts of sex, any kind of sex, to be stomach-churning, they would have to be things you feel are very wrong. To see a woman of any age wearing a bikini and only be able to think about having sex with her, and not be able to simply appreciate the beauty of what you’re seeing, is the workings of a primitive mind. This is what creates cultures that do things like… say, force women to wear garments that cover their entire bodies so men won’t have impure thoughts about them. I think the problem here is not that older men like looking at younger women, it’s that the author is having trouble dealing with his desire to have sex with teenaged girls.
“I have bad thoughts, that means all men have bad thoughts, that means all men are bad.”

When you’re a 14-year-old boy just going through puberty it’s normal to look at 14 and 16 year old girls and want to have sex with them. As a 28-year-old married man I no longer have those same desires.

“For thoughts of sex, any kind of sex, to be stomach-churning, they would have to be things you feel are very wrong.”

Do you understand how a 14-year-old boy fantasizing about sex with a 14 year old girl is fundamentally different from an adult man who still entertains and justifies those fantasies? That one fantasy is normal and acceptable and the other is not?