"The closing of the US Internet mailing list 'UFO Updates' seems to be yet another nail in the coffin of ufology. To be honest the thing had been struggling for years and the days when it was the home to some intelligent passionate debates had long gone.

"Its problem was that for many of the contributors ufology was a religion not a science. Any critical discussion of classic cases was howled down with cries of 'pelicanist', 'skeptibunker' and the rest. The definition of these epithets was “anyone who suggests any explanation of UFO reports that does not involve non-human or at least exotic intelligences”. It’s clear that many on the list and wider saw their role as conservators of mysteries rather than as solvers of puzzles. Not surprisingly most well-known British ufologists joined the blacklist of those who were to be shouted down by, for example, Pope Jerry Clark. Magonians were joined by Nigel Watson, David Clarke, Andy Roberts and latterly Joe McGonagle (and I suspect that Jenny Randles and Paul Devereux were in there somewhere). Their crime was arguing that UFO reports were probably not generated by alien intelligences.

"At least critics of the classic cases were allowed to put their case, those who criticised Saint Budd and Jacobs were just thrown off the list. No matter how wild and dangerous their claims became, no matter that they wrecked people’s lives; that Jacobs went in for the shrillest kind of substitute antisemitism or however much John Mack cheer-led for the old apartheid regime in South Africa (even having the gall to attack Nelson Mandela for teaching the 'natives' white folks ways) they remained inviolate.

"Of course the defectors from the abductionist cult such as Carol Rainey got the worst of it. Rainey was portrayed as the caricature shrewish and vengeful ex-wife of Budd Hopkins, rather than someone who, having participated in his research had been eventually able to see the dangerous techniques and assumptions behind it. For this she was subjected to a barrage of misogynist abuse on UpDates, which provoked a number of contributors, including Magonia Online editor John Rimmer, to sever links with the list. Of course the Hopkins fan-boys and eager believers stayed to the bitter end and eventually drove it into the ground. It will be missed but not mourned."

Can't say I disagree with most of that.Over the years there have been many weirdos, 'bleevers', and opportunists that have inserted themselves into the ufo community and turned the whole thing into a religion at times. Many serious investigators using valid skepticism and science to try and ferret out any truth have either been scared off or neutralized by the 'giggle factor'.I believe these 'wackos' as skizicks called them above have ruined the whole ufo area and made it impossible to do any real science and for anyone outside of this 'community' to take it seriously anymore.

I agree, if they were just here to figure out what makes a human "tick", they would certainly have been finished long ago. Just like a researcher may "abduct" an animal, study and tag it, then release it back in its native habitat.

But if the Aliens are in fact conducting inter-breeding experiments, (a theory poised by a number of researchers) that would certainly explain why they continue abductions and many generations of the same family-line, as has been reported (notice I did not say proved)...

Mythos, I agree with you. If aliens are still doing their thing, we don't really know what their goals may be. If witnesses are still reporting encounters, then professionals should be investigating their claims. In Bud Hopkins defense, he admitted that he wasn't an expert and wished that those who were would step up.

All of Vallee's points are arguable. They are based on broad assumptions that are beyond our ability to know.

"Of course the defectors from the abductionist cult such as Carol Rainey got the worst of it. Rainey was portrayed as the caricature shrewish and vengeful ex-wife of Budd Hopkins, rather than someone who, having participated in his research had been eventually able to see the dangerous techniques and assumptions behind it. For this she was subjected to a barrage of misogynist abuse on UpDates, which provoked a number of contributors, including Magonia Online editor John Rimmer, to sever links with the list. Of course the Hopkins fan-boys and eager believers stayed to the bitter end and eventually drove it into the ground. It will be missed but not mourned."

There is something wrong with someone undermining the work of an ex who also happened to be losing a battle with cancer. Carol Rainey may have been telling the truth, I can't say, but the nature of her relationship with Hopkins seriously taints her cause and puts her judgment into question. The thought of her gives me the creeps.

"Of course the defectors from the abductionist cult such as Carol Rainey got the worst of it. Rainey was portrayed as the caricature shrewish and vengeful ex-wife of Budd Hopkins, rather than someone who, having participated in his research had been eventually able to see the dangerous techniques and assumptions behind it.

Of course, everyone knows that ALL Ex-Wives are ALWAYS truthful and honest and should be believed 100% of the time in what they say about their ex-husbands...

Right or wrong Budd Hopkins dedicated a huge part of his life in the research of UFO's and Carols ONLY claim to fame is spending a huge part of her life trying to discredit him..

Same here. I very much agree that while many claim to seek answers, a more accurate description would be that they seek unconditional support for their preferred and yet to be substantiated beliefs. A more helpful approach might be if people took more responsibility for identifying whether they are seeking accurate information or emotional support services.

Of course, everyone knows that ALL Ex-Wives are ALWAYS truthful and honest and should be believed 100% of the time in what they say about their ex-husbands...

Right or wrong Budd Hopkins dedicated a huge part of his life in the research of UFO's and Carols ONLY claim to fame is spending a huge part of her life trying to discredit him..

Sounds like a vengeful bitch to me...

Actually, Carol Rainey has a rather impressive resume. She has many accomplishments in addition to her contributions to the UFO community.

If you, Mythos, or others would care to cite and challenge specific points in her work, such as her article The Priests of High Strangeness or videos from her YouTube channel, in intelligent and reasonable manners, I would be pleased to hear you out and respond in kind. However, I will not be drawn into counterproductive name-calling and similar tactics that serve no helpful purposes.

Actually, that was a key point in the Magonia material: opponents were reduced to conducting personal attacks as opposed to presenting competent and objective rebuttal. I quote Kevin Randle, from February, 2011, A Response to Budd Hopkins:

"I read Carol Rainey’s article and am aware of the old adage that the true test of another’s intelligence is how much he or she agrees with you. I have thought, based on my investigations, my research, and my discussions with many others, that the answers for alien abduction did not lie in the stars, but here on Earth. I found terrestrial explanations that were far more satisfying than a group of aliens abducting humans to perform genetic experiments that would have been crude a half century ago.

"And now I have read Hopkins’ response ('Deconstructing the Debunkers: A Response,') to Rainey’s article and found it to more in line with a smear and less with a discussion of the scientific merit the abduction phenomenon. He reduced the discussion to his beliefs in UFO debunking, erecting strawmen to knock down but providing little in the way of objective evidence for his point of view."

The UFO community suffers from too much name-calling in lieu of meaningful, productive discussion. Let's be part of the solution, not the problem.

The latest video, published this week, from microbiologist and popular podcast guest Dr. Tyler Kokjohn. The doctor explores the now decades old alien abduction dogma and how some researchers are responding.

The latest video, published this week, from microbiologist and popular podcast guest Dr. Tyler Kokjohn. The doctor explores the now decades old alien abduction dogma and how some researchers are responding.

Interesting video and the abduction believers are definitely going to need to put up or shut with the new advances in genome discovery.If hybrids exist we will be able to show it easily with genetic testing. Maybe the alien abduction research crowd should start looking for a new line of work.

Tuesday, January 28, 9 p.m. EST, Carol Rainey will guest on Jeff Ritzmann's Paranormal Waypoint. Check out the discussion, chat room and more at KGRA Radio.

Ms. Rainey's The Priests of High Strangeness: Co-Creation of the "Alien Abduction Phenomenon", and Dr. Tyler Kokjohn's Tainted, Toxic and Taboo: A Scientist's Assessment of Alien Abduction Research, may be viewed at:

Jeff Ritzmann, host of Paranormal Waypoint on KGRA Radio, recently undertook a three-part series of shows dedicated to addressing challenges within research of alleged alien abduction. The series, designed to identify problems, evidence of such problems and their subsequent results, began with reviewing information presented by psychologist Dr. Scott Lilienfeld.

The doctor explained the lack of reliability in the use of hypnosis as a memory retrieval tool. Also covered were the inherent challenges related to witness narratives obtained via hypnosis. Such challenges include a high degree of cultural contamination within ufology, as well as biased hypnotists who are typically overeager to obtain predetermined outcomes. Regressive hypnosis is of course the preferred investigative tool of such trend setting researchers of alien abduction as the late Budd Hopkins and retired historian Dr. David Jacobs. Problem.

Ritzmann's second episode included guest Carol Rainey, an award-winning filmmaker, author, grant writer and ex-wife of Hopkins. Rainey drew both widespread support and emotionally-based criticism from the UFO community in 2011 when she published The Priests of High Strangeness: Co-Creation of the “Alien Abduction Phenomenon”, an article documenting poor research practices by Hopkins and his misrepresentation of events.

Rainey followed up the essay by posting videos demonstrating Hopkins' exaggerations, including one clip in which the writer himself described his misleading portrayal of circumstances as stacking the deck. Additional clips on Rainey's YouTube channel include documentation of extreme inconsistencies in the Linda Cortile case and as additionally covered by veteran writer/researcher George Hansen and colleagues. Such circumstances are indeed evidence of problems.

The third and final episode of the Paranormal Waypoint series will cover results of the problems and will be broadcast Tuesday, February 4 at 9 p.m. EST. The show will focus upon circumstances surrounding the case of Emma Woods and the flawed research methodology of David Jacobs. The historian's reliance on regressive hypnosis as a primary investigative technique has been coupled with shameless promotion of completely unsubstantiated claims of human-alien breeding programs. Opportunities for researchers such as Jacobs to exploit such circumstances grew out of a ufology culture and subsequent following largely developed by Hopkins. Jacobs' now resulting iconic status has blinded many within the demographic to his researcher bias, circumstances affording him virtual immunity from critical review of his methodology, conclusions and care of research subjects.

Ritzmann extended an invitation to me, Jack Brewer, to join him and microbiologist Dr. Tyler Kokjohn on Paranormal Waypoint Tuesday evening. I look forward to supporting Ritzmann and his guests in their efforts to clarify circumstances and chains of events occurring within the alien abduction genre. Join us in the KGRA chat room and express your opinions about the material covered.

It should be noted that the Paranormal Waypoint three-part series consisted of individuals, including Ritzmann and Rainey, who do not dismiss reports of high strangeness out of hand. They are interpreted by this writer to be among a growing number of community members who recognize it is a poor choice to settle for premature conclusions in lieu of verifiable explanations, whatever those explanations may ultimately prove to be.

Recently, a notice was posted online which noted that a support group for UFO abductees was going to be created in a nearby city.

I was curious, because 20 years ago, I had been approached to create such a group. This was during the period when UFO abductees were just becoming more common and there was a great deal of attention focused on them. (It's waned a bit since the, although the abduction phenomenon still is significant in ufology, but has morphed a bit to become more of a contactee movement.)

Anyway, I responded to the post online, offering encouragement and asking about the clinical professional who would be leading or facilitating the group.

"Excellent! Which local clinical therapist will be facilitating? The abductee support group I helped with in Winnipeg back in the 1990s had a psychologist and a counselor for referrals too. I think both might be necessary, especially if some abductees are experiencing significant anxiety. We helped a number of people through their fears and concerns."

The reason I know the importance of working with a clinical professional was because several of the abductees who were members of the group turned out to have issues best dealt with by professionals, not ufologists. One woman had been raped and her memory of her "abduction experience" was a screen for the horrific trauma she had endured. Two other abductees attempted suicide because they were living in fear and paranoia since the aliens were watching them day and night. Others had showed signs of other issues that needed the assistance of professionals.

Such trauma is clearly beyond the realm of ufology, and it is clearly in the best interests of "experiencers" to help them as best as possible.

I was surprised that my query about this new group working with a clinical professional was met with hostility. The poster responded:

"[It would be bad] If everyone has to talk in front of a psychiatrist who is not an experiencer that is treating it as mental illness. He knows NOTHING about UFOs. People need a safe environment ..., not a court room or mental examination room."

I was aghast. This was hardly the reaction I had expected. It showed a lack of understanding of both how clinical professionals view people in need and also how support groups for people with various issues are actually developed. It's also not a matter of speaking in front of a psychiatrist who would be judging you on your sanity. If a person is traumatized by his or her abduction experience, it is all the more important to have someone present who can help.

I just love how everyone assumes abductees are all dumbcluckies like me who apparently do not have a clue; truth is abductees clearly come from all walks of life from police, military, science and yes even doctors’ nurses and the dreaded psychiatrist. Only problem is that such information is hidden on sites such as this due to every one being anonymous unless like Greer cashing in on the subject, there are groups for near every complaint and most get support from government i.e. NHS UK and as the abductee trauma has been around a lot longer than the internet then why has there never been any real help available, why is it ignored by the doctrine you so strongly support apart from them claiming it is mental health issues. Could it be because it is not a mental health issue that if investigated by these trained personnel expose it as a reality, yes the trauma that same as most aftermath problems that victims of crime suffer needs addressing in the manner you portray but the cause unlike murder rape etc is left a blank space when it comes to ET this indicates they are treating the cause as mental illness and not as a physical crime against the person, so no matter how much importance the need for such is shouted , until the cause is accepted as a reality and a crime it is a pointless exercise.

I don't think 'everyone' assumes that all 'abductees' are 'dumbcluckies', but certainly some involved have psychological issues that need to be addressed by clinical professionals. Whether or not these issues are a result of 'abductions' or the psychological issues lead to the abduction beliefs should be determined on an individual basis....but if the ufo abductee community automatically reject any and all help from professional sources there will continue to be conflict and lack of resolution for those who truly need help.

I don't think 'everyone' assumes that all 'abductees' are 'dumbcluckies', but certainly some involved have psychological issues that need to be addressed by clinical professionals. Whether or not these issues are a result of 'abductions' or the psychological issues lead to the abduction beliefs should be determined on an individual basis....but if the ufo abductee community automatically reject any and all help from professional sources there will continue to be conflict and lack of resolution for those who truly need help.

Right. One way or another, an appropriate response to trauma is to seek competent and qualified treatment for it. Competent and qualified.

I see from the opening post of this topic that David M Jacobs is being criticized as not being a good scientist. Does this also mean that he is not an appropriate researcher for questioning individuals to confide in if their particular anomalous tales bear only a minimal similarity to his descriptions of abductees/abduction at www.ufoabduction.com ?