Fractals 1-10: The group can enter the dungeon at the highest achievement level of any party member.
Fractals 11-20: The group can enter the dungeon at the highest achievement level of any party member but, all members must have completed the fractals at a minimum difficulty level of 10.
Fractals 21 and beyond: Anyone who completed at least difficulty level of 20..honestly, who cares?

If your guild is inhumane enough to find it an inconvenience to run level one to "wherever everyone else is at" fractals to keep a team of friends in progression range of each other, find another guild. Great thing about multi guilding is you can shop around.

Seriously, folks, this feature's implementation polices itself: set teams, of friends that will actually function as such, on both counts, will succeed... anyone else complaining outside those parameters either doesn't belong in this content (they DID put in an outer world zone that you can't be excluded from) or doesn't belong in MMOs.

It seems like this idea is lost on a lot of people.. people whom I suspect, just want to complain. You can easily build your teams of people up, get the right guys from your guild/other guilds and run the content. It actually holds your hand from the get go and increases in difficulty as you progress.. teaching you the encounters while you go along..that's awesome!

There are some people complaining about how in 2 years, nobody will be running this place, or not running it at the lower levels.. well, duh! There will be new stuff to tackle.. it's an MMO, it's like people don't understand how they work!

I this last patch shows Anet is all over the map and just throwing things out there to see what people salute. They are in panic mode since sales never reached the levels they had targeted. The free weekend is a precursor for going free to play. I think when they did not become the huge hit they had planned for, all the fuzzy feel good issues got thrown out, and the hardline bottom liners took over.
Of all the things in the manifesto, few remain un-trampled.

The Fractals are so aimed at the elite and so completely stacked against the casual scrub player it is not funny. They are wonderful for the elite, those with high success in this type of game, lots of friends and connections. The fractals cry out for organization and voice communication, things sorely lacking with new players, and casual players. Until the game provides voice natively, it is elitist.

Unfortunately the elite only make up 10% or less of any community. The other 90% may have guilds, but they are simply far less organized or capable. I have sampled a good number of guilds, and the number that are organized, and egalitarian are in the minority.

The average new player has no way, other than time involved to join a guild and spend some time in it to determine if it is going to be worthwhile. With so many no so hot guilds, this may take quite a while for the typical new player. It may be more time than many players are willing to invest.

It was unfortunate and counter productive to introduce a free weekend at the same time max difficulty content and dungeons were introduced. New players faced either mostly vacant starter areas, or if they tried the new content or dungeons quickly found that up-leveling still leaves you with your pitiful starter pea-shooter weapons.

If new players get a casual PUG past level 1 it was the exception. For many of the new players, especially the new free weekend ones, it was a miserable experience. Due to real life issues, I did not start fractals untill the second day, by that time the only way to get in was with a PUGs as both of my guilds by that time were only running level 3 and up. Quite a few of these PUGs disintegrated after 1 or two of the more frustrating dungeons like the swamp or the underwater one. I lost count, but finally hit one PUG that were all experienced players, not new free-weekend ones, and then the dungeons become fun. This however is not an enticing prospect, spend 3 hours taking chances with PUGs that don't pan out, in order to hit on one that gives you an hour or so of enjoyment. I really enjoyed the fractals with experience players, however the prospect of the hit or miss finding a decent PUG has basically kept me away.
If anything the Fractal levels is just one more way of dispersing the player-base and shrinking the number of players anyone can do content with.

Regular attrition has already started to set in with the player-base, with level 80s leaving for the usual reasons, real life, boredom, or moving on to other things. The free weekend is a sign, Anet has run the numbers, and if they don't start bringing more new players, it will soon join the ranks of all the other MMO contenders that start out with a bang but fizzle out.

While some of the new content was great fun, and a few things were technically impressive, there were also massive glitches and game breakers for new players. I think Anet is skating on pretty thin ice now.

after seeing this, i feared i was mistaken into thinking that WoW was the first mmorpg to introduce the dungeon finder so i googled it and i was indeed correct.

it appears you may be mistaken. Dungeon finder was introduced by blizzard in WoW after Wrath of the Lich King's release via subsequent content patch.

so yes, those wanting a dungeon finder have indeed been influenced by the feature via playing WoW and thus revealing to us just exactly what content they would like to see added to GW2.

its the vicious cycle, we all hate WoW, but there are those that want content from WoW in Gw2.

You seem to be speaking of "Dungeon Finder" specifically. We were speaking of grouping tools in a general sense. DF was not the first grouping tool. It was simply the first that auto-paired you into a group and directly took you to the instance.
I don't disagree that some form of LFG panel would be a great addition [and I mean one besides the never-used LFG panel that exists, because that one is far too generic to be of any use]. I despise that general chat is spammed with LFGs,

Rather than taking a cue from WoW's Dungeon Finder, I'd prefer they take a cue from something more like DDO's Social Panel, which was much more flexible allowing you to look for groups that would be available to characters other than the one that you were currently playing.
That way, if I'm playing my Engineer I could still see groups for dungeons that my Ele/Guard/whatever might want to run.
Something like that would also be useful for getting groups together for smaller things such as world events or leveling in certain areas.
Example: How many times have you seen a boss up for hours on end in certain areas because there were never enough people in the area to take it on?
Solution: LFM - Krait Blood Witch up on X server
Shouting in Map Chat doesn't help because there aren't enough people there to see it.
Posting on the hypothetical grouping tool would get a much better response. People wouldn't even have to actually join your group. They could just head out there and help.

Rather than taking a cue from WoW's Dungeon Finder, I'd prefer they take a cue from something more like DDO's Social Panel, which was much more flexible allowing you to look for groups that would be available to characters other than the one that you were currently playing.

DDO's group finder is probably the finest example of a LFG tool in any MMO. Why more people haven't tried to copy it is beyond me, most devs seem to think the WoW model is the only way to go.

I'm actually not sure why they set it to lowest common when every ten levels is a soft gear check and every twenty levels is the hard gear check unless you have clairvoyance and the ability to dodge at a moments notice. I like the fact that Agony is not just a world de-buff like the crap that plagued "high end" content in GW1 but an added effect to: you play poorly; stop being hit by attacks, stop standing in red rings, stop standing near allies when billowing fire.

If they set it such that you can access the highest level and anything in between, you're going to get checked by agony further and further down you go so at some point you, and the team you're in, won't be able to finish since you'll be (literally) dead weight. And if you are god's gift to dodging, then you deserve to be at that high level and so why not skip the hurdle. So I don't particularly see the problem, no one but the people who can do it anyway are going to get "runs" through the content.

They set it like that because their objective is to slow players' progress down. They even said so in the dev blog about ascended gear!

I agree that players who can take it should be allowed to enter any level (not just the highest level of the team, but any level, why not?), but that's just not the philosophy of GW2. You are being constrained by your character's progress, not your own skill; this is not GW1.

The whole tiering of difficulty requirement is abysmal. The fact that the dungeon crashes many people out (I crashed out of it once, and another time I was fighting a battle in a fractal and was teleported to Lion's Arch for NO REASON AT ALL) means that the gating is not even fair on a technical level. There are too many bugs, currently.

It is annoying waiting around for a fractal level 1 all of the time. I have gone through 4 fractal level 1 groups that didn't finish because somebody lagged out and then couldn't come back, or some other random bug happened. To me, they are not even worth the effort, and I have gone back to just running instances. This dungeon tiering was a HUGE mistake by ANet, it makes it so that even people who tried to run it on the FIRST WEEKEND IT WAS INTRODUCED were greeted by "LOLZ NOOB STILL AT LVL 1."

You seem to be speaking of "Dungeon Finder" specifically. We were speaking of grouping tools in a general sense. DF was not the first grouping tool. It was simply the first that auto-paired you into a group and directly took you to the instance.

Dungeon Finder is synonymous with LFG tool.

but thats beyond the point. the point is, in an earlier post, you merely quoted what i said and wrote "Incorrect" without even attempting further exaplanantion, which is rather inflamatory.

besides, what you are describing seems like its already in the game some what, just not being used for dungeons. im thinking about the sPvP game finder window. is that what you are talking about? please correct me if im wrong.

It only gates pugging and bad guilds. I do agree that it is problematic, but not that game-breaking.
It's more akin to the old GW1's pvp - make friends in-game, find a decent guild, start playing with the same people for some time (even if it's 20+ people, it's still one group of 'friends' after a while). It only encourages to form up guilds and get more people on friendlists, as eventually even if you're lv15, you'll need to wait for people to catch up... or help them do so.
It's the people's egocentric mentality that introduces the gating here, as unlike the GW1's pvp, there's literally no skill/gear threshold to get into FotM. Start helping others out and willingly playing lower difficulties - then you will have people to play higher difficulties with.

They set it like that because their objective is to slow players' progress down. They even said so in the dev blog about ascended gear!

I agree that players who can take it should be allowed to enter any level (not just the highest level of the team, but any level, why not?), but that's just not the philosophy of GW2. You are being constrained by your character's progress, not your own skill; this is not GW1.

Honestly, its a mix. Guild Wars 1 had degenerate garbage that also did not reward or even care about player skill like all the elite areas which rewarded (or should I say favored) gimmick builds rather than someone trying to play straight. You could argue that discovery the gimmick takes skill but that skirts the issue that the content was designed in brain-dead fashion to be frustrating rather than hard and rewarded mechanical subversion rather than talent. More over the gimmicks required little skill to run and were more like whole punching ordeals (heroes really worsened this as you could literally just let the ArenaNet sponsored bots run you through everything, all you had to was tab-space your way to victory). (You can pull it off if talented without using the gimmicks, but it will take you many times longer.)

On the other hand, in this case, rather that being slapped with "You take a billion damage while moving" ala DoA, but more of a "can you use your two limited resources well", that being dodging and the cooldown on the heal. Could it have been made better with a play at any level format? Yes. Is it better/worse than Guild Wars 1's methods? Its a different sort of footing. They tiered it to slow you, which I don't particularly mind, since the dungeon teaches you *new* mechanics with each difficulty iteration so I take it as no different than leveling a character. What I do mind is that you cannot drag someone up to your level since, once you've learned the mechanics, you suffice at explaining them. (Now, note, this may be something that changes and, honestly, I hope it does. But the step ladder approach I don't mind nearly as much. This may be, however, just a factor of the group of people I play with. We are happy with each level we complete as a group (and we've run the 1-10 gauntlet three times now for other friends) and taking each step up feels "cool". Id just like to be able to bring new friends or new FotMers to our level more quickly.)

So, long story short, they took one step forward (good mechanic) and one step back (blockade even when playing with people past said blockade).

At least they put the gear at level 10, before agony, and easily attainable in two nights of dungeon diving.

Lots of whining going on, lots of good ideas too, but mostly whining drowning them out.

If you're standing around for 5 min shouting LFG stop being lazy and build a group. Bounce through the over flow servers for a few min shouting LFxM Fotm lvl X. Takes 2 seconds to relog to a different overflow... Once said group is assembled everyone transfer to one overflow and commence ffs.

I've ran with nothing but pugs through these dungeons (all of which are relatively easy) and I've yet to see any gear demands/inspections. If someone wants to inspect your gear tell them to * off because they are scrubs if they think these dungeons are hard.

disclosure: only can play for long stretches during weekends,
hence, got to fractal lvl 10, might get stuck there until the weekend.

i love the designs of the new dungeons,
but the grouping setup, not at all.

it creates an unintended elitism even among guildmates.
its a problem for those with irregular schedules,
even within large guilds that are mostly in the same timezone.

its a problem when rolling the dungeon with an alt, even if you're already
high in one character, good luck finding other low fractal level people
in a few weeks/months' time.

and yes, personally had much problems during 'dead times'
finding groups on your specific lvl/ few levels lower.

the problem will only get much worse when people
will have a larger level range scale than they do now.

1-10 during the weekend, easy.
when the time comes when there are groups in the 20s, 30s, (what's the
theoretical max frac lvl anyway?) more and more segregation will
come into play, and that's a fact.

leave for a week's vacation and you'll get passed by the masses.
and if this week's experiences is any indication, there are very few
people who want to do runs at least 3 levels lower, even among large guilds.
and why do the majority don't want to? they want to go up in levels
as well, so they won't get left behind. its just simple human nature.
anet really showed how little foresight they had in this design.

suggestions: (feel free to tweak/ improve)

- get rid of the lowest common level in the group.
and have an indicator in the party enter screen in the fractal portal
on which player is what level. (had bad experiences when one would lie
about their lvl, and had to check them one by one)
- if not, implement at least a range system. like a difference of at least 5 levels.
meaning a lvl 1 player can still join a lvl 5 team, on a lvl 5 fractal run.
but even after completing it s/he will only be lvl 2 after.
- inter-server quest/dungeon search.
gw1 had a much better system in finding interested partied in doing missions.

I'm an average/high level, but well, i don't care. Sometimes i just join lower levels, after all (except a lv1) loot and the run per se can be fun.
And i meet new great players to increase my friendlist. Kinda of what i did with my arah fullset and dungeon master title. If i started to be an elitist, kicking unexperienced, now i was at head+shoulder still hoping to get enough tokens for next piece. I'm open to explain tactis (if the group barely read the chat, sometimes is the DE zerg group who don't read a damn, i'm used). Using this method i will meet talents who soon will be of my level, and i will be happy to invite them to grow to next tier. Guess i'm rare.

For example if I have never ran a fractal before, that makes me a lvl 1.

So, you are saying I should be upset because I can't join a group that is lvl 10, which gives me a chance at much better loot then the lvl 1 dungeons, that they have taken the time to go threw.

I am not trying to be mean, I am just trying to understand if that is what you are trying to say.

Prior to fractals, "anyone" could join any dungeon group. There was complete freedom. The only restriction being level requirements. With the introduction of fractals this is no longer the case. Lets say you are unable to log on for a month or two, you come back & want to play wit your friends/guild members. They are on fractal 18. Your at 3. You are a very exceptionally skilled player & could easily handle 18, but because you have not climbed the fractal ladder, the only way for your friends/guild members to play with you is to drop down to 3 or not play with you at all. Its just a silly content gating that has no place in a MMO that is supposed to be about freedom & allowing the player to play as he/she chooses. Designs like this should be left to WoW/Rift etc

dungeon finder was not introduced into mmorpgs until wrath of the lich king in wow, that was not too long ago. prior to the introduction of dungeon finder, players had to make do. GW2 is not at this stage in development, try and make do.

Prior to that however WoW did have a decent grouping tool, where you could select which dungeons you want to run and which was displaying you along with anyone else willing to run w/e dungeon. GW2's LFG tool is just terrible.

Honestly, its a mix. Guild Wars 1 had degenerate garbage that also did not reward or even care about player skill like all the elite areas which rewarded (or should I say favored) gimmick builds rather than someone trying to play straight. You could argue that discovery the gimmick takes skill but that skirts the issue that the content was designed in brain-dead fashion to be frustrating rather than hard and rewarded mechanical subversion rather than talent. More over the gimmicks required little skill to run and were more like whole punching ordeals (heroes really worsened this as you could literally just let the ArenaNet sponsored bots run you through everything, all you had to was tab-space your way to victory). (You can pull it off if talented without using the gimmicks, but it will take you many times longer.)

On the other hand, in this case, rather that being slapped with "You take a billion damage while moving" ala DoA, but more of a "can you use your two limited resources well", that being dodging and the cooldown on the heal. Could it have been made better with a play at any level format? Yes. Is it better/worse than Guild Wars 1's methods? Its a different sort of footing. They tiered it to slow you, which I don't particularly mind, since the dungeon teaches you *new* mechanics with each difficulty iteration so I take it as no different than leveling a character. What I do mind is that you cannot drag someone up to your level since, once you've learned the mechanics, you suffice at explaining them. (Now, note, this may be something that changes and, honestly, I hope it does. But the step ladder approach I don't mind nearly as much. This may be, however, just a factor of the group of people I play with. We are happy with each level we complete as a group (and we've run the 1-10 gauntlet three times now for other friends) and taking each step up feels "cool". Id just like to be able to bring new friends or new FotMers to our level more quickly.)

So, long story short, they took one step forward (good mechanic) and one step back (blockade even when playing with people past said blockade).

At least they put the gear at level 10, before agony, and easily attainable in two nights of dungeon diving.

It's rare to see a poster make such a post as this one. So full of apparent reasoning, yet so full of self-contradiction and incorrect implications.

It's true that some (not all) elite areas strongly rewarded gimmicks. It's also true that running an optional gimmick in GW1 often took more skill than the enforced ones in GW2. Also, gimmicks, though efficient, were sometimes harder to run than "non-gimmick" teams. For example DoA with 8 paragons was faster than that shitty Searing Flames tank-n-spank that most teams used (now, the trinity is a gimmick in itself, but let's pretend that it is somehow a "standard strategy" instead).
Agreed though that letting your heroes run Discordway or something was *ed up but really no different than joining a zerg in GW2.

However, you are missing an important point. Taking "a billion damage for moving" in DoA is a limitation of resources! It is a tactical decision, where you must weigh the trade-off of moving and having to heal vs. the damage you'll take if you remain standing. Your position is a resource, translatable to energy, which is translatable to time. Time is the ultimate resource in GW1, and your ability to correctly translate resource values and then apply the value judgements is player skill. The same goes for GW2, but as you say, there are fewer resources to translate between. You have the skill cooldowns and you have the invulnerability jump bar. The game is simplistic enough that you don't even need to consider other team members' cooldowns.

FotM does not teach you new mechanics all the time. After a while, the only increase in "difficulty" is an increase in agony.

ive been reading thorugh this thread and honestly? the majority of the complaints stem from the fact that people are having a hard time getting into groups. for a number of reasons.

but i think its mainly because of other players. players are preventing other players from getting into groups. the elitism, the segregation, the unhelpful etc.

and instead of the community banding together and just grouping, they blame the game design for being designed in a way that enables players to act this way.

i guess you are either the glass half full or the glass half empty sort of person.

*EDIT - the word "enables" was bolded to reflect the fact that the game does not inherently force nor promote the above stated player behavior, but it does nothing to stop it and thus, allows them to act that way. so it still cant be directly and solely blamed.

Guess, before the geargrind update, the racist community was an amazing community where throw a LFM coe all paths was a matter of few minutes and 4 was joining and ready to go, no racism, no link your gear, no kick that noob he's low, etc.

Guess, before the geargrind update, the racist community was an amazing community where throw a LFM coe all paths was a matter of few minutes and 4 was joining and ready to go, no racism, no link your gear, no kick that noob he's low, etc.

racism?

and again, all the negative you mentioned were things that other players do to other players. nothing the game promotes or forces people to act that way.

and instead of the community banding together and just grouping, they blame the game design for being designed in a way that enables players to act this way.

People follow the shinies. Why would anyone give a * about anyone else when they can discriminate and thus increase their chance of getting better gear? That's the entire problem, that discrimination is actually rewarded.

I'm an average/high level, but well, i don't care. Sometimes i just join lower levels, after all (except a lv1) loot and the run per se can be fun.
And i meet new great players to increase my friendlist. Kinda of what i did with my arah fullset and dungeon master title. If i started to be an elitist, kicking unexperienced, now i was at head+shoulder still hoping to get enough tokens for next piece. I'm open to explain tactis (if the group barely read the chat, sometimes is the DE zerg group who don't read a damn, i'm used). Using this method i will meet talents who soon will be of my level, and i will be happy to invite them to grow to next tier. Guess i'm rare.

You wrote exactly the post I was about to type out. I don't have any problem running a lower difficulty fractal - usually I give it 5 minutes or so to see if any groups are at the same point as I am, and if not I just fill whatever slot is advertising. The strangest ones to me are when friends or guilds progress and wont do low difficulty runs with their mates. When a lottery-like grind for virtual items takes precedence over having a good time with your buddies it sort of defeats the purpose of a social game. Oh well, I guess that's why I haven't felt any burnout and am still loving most of what the game has to offer week after week.