perhaps it would be helpful to define what we mean by bullshit.
If you feel that your wiccan cirle of protection really protects you
then fine. it doesn't really protect you though.
That's what i would define as bullshit.
As far as Rituals having a non-bullshit "real" emotional effect
I think they do.
Native American Rituals come to mind especially.
The vision quest for example.
And Shamanism. More to that than mere bullshit.
are those "underground" religions?
I don't know.
I've always been interested in Native American folklore
and traditions.
I'm just cool like that.

fletcher wrote:perhaps it would be helpful to define what we mean by bullshit.If you feel that your wiccan cirle of protection really protects youthen fine. it doesn't really protect you though.That's what i would define as bullshit.As far as Rituals having a non-bullshit "real" emotional effectI think they do.Native American Rituals come to mind especially.The vision quest for example.And Shamanism. More to that than mere bullshit.are those "underground" religions?I don't know.I've always been interested in Native American folkloreand traditions.I'm just cool like that.

Right. Do I think there's a way to hypnotize oneself and others? Sure. Is a ritual like that in any way a supernatural phenomenon? No. And isn't that the line between being an occult ritual vs. a neat trick? Belief in a supernatural basis?

“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell

I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is One, and that there is no unity in any manner like His, and that He alone is our God, who was, and is, and will be. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is not a body, and that He is free from all the properties of matter, and that there can be no (physical) comparison to Him whatsoever. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the first and the last. I believe with perfect faith that to the Creator, blessed be His Name, and to Him alone, it is right to pray, and that it is not right to pray to any being besides Him. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses, our teacher, peace be upon him, was true, and that he was the chief of the prophets, both of those who preceded him and of those who followed him. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that is now in our possession is the same that was given to Moses, our teacher, peace be upon him. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be exchanged, and that there will never be any other Torah from the Creator, blessed be His name. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows all the deeds of human beings, and all their thoughts, as it says: "Who fashioned the hearts of them all, Who comprehends all their actions." (Psalms 33:15) I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, rewards those that keep His commandments and punishes those that transgress them. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah; and even though he may tarry, nonetheless I wait every day for his coming. I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, blessed be His name, and His mention shall be exalted for ever and ever.

= bullshit.

“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell

Well, see, it's funny because even what I said can be called a belief-system. So there appears to be an inherent contradiction in such a statement.

My personal view is that language seems akin to a neurological grid, and if you frame statements in certain ways they might not get across much information - or only get it across to certain people, at least.

Sure, all dogmatic belief is bullshit. But I do not think that interest in the occult necessarily has to go hand in hand with dogmatic belief. In my experience, such dogmas will block all progress.

Many people on this board know of strange synchronicities that seem to be certainly impossible as coincidence. Is it any wonder that there may be certain aspects of the human mind which are hidden or ordinarily not
accessed? A whole dimension of theoretical and practical spiritual systems (be it yoga, fasting, UFO cult, magic, or simply reading books) all seem to working towards this same aim of experience with "the other" or with the raw facts of infinite space-time, which seems to behave in a very strange way indeed.

What I'm saying is basically similar to what Robert Anton Wilson was explaining in the audio to this part of his memorial show, that all different practices which put you into exalted or open mind-states will be more likely to cause experiences of synchronicity. This rings true for me, because in my own experience it is possible to access this area of the brain at an early age and without any knowledge of methods nor theory.

Most people seem to have experiences, at different points in their lives, of being "on fire" mentally and the whole world seeming suddenly new all around them. Even, say, the time you are reading a book and really getting into it, accessing and immediately integrating the information. Another time you could be reading the same book and have no feeling. For me, it is simply a matter of quality of consciousness; here I am using the word quality as in the quality of a signal strength. That is to say, the experiences you have with the world around you vary in the levels of information which you are receiving from them - a simple shift in perspective or mood can cause a book to go from tiring to illuminating.

It seems like the times in life where I have been most able to "get into" the media around me were times when I was also feeling that way about the world around me and the wonder of everything. So for me it seemed like no big stretch to think that there is a collective unconscious mind and that quantum theory postulates the possibility of instantaneous transfer between two particles no matter the distance. When the quality of my consciousness is high enough to receive a higher signal strength from the "objective universe", which it is constantly interpreting and displaying as reality, then I will receive more information from the world. This is identical to yoga states, etc. and seems to cause synchronicities to occur, for whatever reason.

Causing this to happen more frequently involves removing as many blocks from the mind as possible, hence the superstitious term "spiritual practice". I guess "spiritual" can still be accurate for me if I use this definition of spirit:
"temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated"

So really I'm just saying that I've been an atheist for pretty much my whole life, but that this statement itself is not very deep; my belief or disbelief in the objective existence of a deity or holiness of texts seems irrelevant to me in that these topics rarely enter into my thoughts or cares. The term "spiritual life" seems so outdated to me, especially as applied to things in which I have a scientific interest. I am similar to Terence McKenna in putting forth that he came to learn these things about the universe by taking the scientific route and not ignoring the phenomena he encountered in his life.

John Lilly wrote:"In the province of the mind, what one believes to be true is true or becomes true, within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the mind, there are no limits... In the province of connected minds, what the network believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the network's mind there are no limits."

This is what I meant about language being a neurological grid - it takes this long for me to properly explain myself within the confines of a statement such as "All religious belief and ritualization is bullshit."

I guess all I really needed to say is that "One man's garbage is another man's treasure"; just because it's bullshit doesn't mean I can't read the books or follow the exercises and get real use and value out of interpreting it.