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As for Zangoose, it already has Crush Claw and Revenge as you catch it, and Shadow Claw is in Celestial Tower almost immediately after, including the elemental punches and Low Kick from Driftveil. Its stats are almost identical to Cincinno's except Atk and Spd are switched, bearing in mind Cincinno's in High. It doesn't have Sweep Slap, but its Return is almost as powerful, has a better movepool and its speed is still high enough to outspeed most pokemon. Of course its not near guranteed like Cincinno, which is his downfall.
I say Upper-Middle for Zangoose [1/3]. He already has a good moveset upon capture and is convenient to raise and his only downfall is his frailty coupled with his not-quite-amazing speed.

Been waiting for someone else to back me up before voting, [2/3] Upper Middle
I actually replaced my Cincinno with a Zangoose on my playthrough. tbh ingame, anything above 85 base speed is considered "fast enough", unless you're in the battle subway where the pokes actually have good IVs and EV investment. Stuff like Chandelure at 80 base speed can outspeed most of the elite 4 unless it has really bad IVs and a horrible nature. That's why that 20 extra base attack point are far more valuable than the speed, imo.

[3/3] Zangoose for Upper-Mid. It seems like a really solid Pokemon and I think the only thing that really holds it back is its frailty.

[3/3] Maractus for Low. It's definitely useable in the middle portion of the game (and possibly even beyond) and it has a decent movepool to go mixed with.

Also going to [2/3] Sandslash for mid. It's got an early evolution and does well mid-game, dominating Elesa and I'd imagine it would perform decently against Clay as well. It's got some good physical stats but it's not that amazing on the special side but eh.

*cough*someone vote Lilligant for high please. I've posted my arguments for it on the previous page I believe*cough*

I'm still on the fence with Lilligant tbh. The fact that it requires setup to deal with some of the more common types (Poison and Steel ala Team Plasma) really cuts it down, no matter how easy the setup may be. It'd go straight to High if it had some form of coverage move, but as it stands, Mono-Grass just doesn't cut it for me. I won't cast a vote, but those are my two cents on Lilligant.

Just wondering, but have you used Lilligant in a playthrough? Grass attacks are pretty much all it needs, tbh; after a Quiver Dance (and you should have no trouble setting those up since Lilligant is already fast and has Sleep Powder and Leech Seed which help with setting up), STAB Giga Drain or STAB Own Tempo Petal Dance hit like a truck. You get it pretty early, you can evolve it at Lv 26 (after it learns Giga Drain as a Petilil, but before Lv 28 when it learns Quiver Dance as a Lilligant), so at around the fourth Gym you have a Pokemon with base 110 SpA, base 90 Speed, one of the best set-up moves in the game in Quiver Dance, and a great moveset in Leech Seed, Sleep Powder and Giga Drain (until you can get Petal Dance). Yes, it may look like mono-Grass is terrible, but speaking from experience, Lilligant is brilliant (and I do think that, while theorymonning is all well and good, personal experience with a Pokemon holds a lot of weight) and doesn't fade away whatsoever, so I'm still sticking with High.

yeah i have used it in-game (admittedly, in b/w not b2/w2) and it was alright but nothing special lol. i dont really know how you managed to make it work but for me a pokémon that has to set up to get locked into attacking with only one type while it's got no real serious defences of its own to survive with is just not ok. i'm only going upper mid on it because it's destructive when it does get going but honestly... i really cannot find reasoning to go higher than that on a pokémon which requires a setup to only hit with one type of move. plus sleep powder isn't a particularly reliable move to help you survive. it just seems very easy to kill and very limited to me. i see that it can hit hard but... no. not shifting from upper mid here.

I personally think grass typing really suffers in BW2 (plasma and you hit 4/8 gyms for 0.5) coverage moves are needed to make up for this. Lilligant has no coverage moves and although its easily the best grass pokemon from unova it really doesn't mesh well with BW2. Own tempo + petal dance + quiver dance + decent sp.att and speed - no coverage is upper middle [3/3] IMO.

Because High is also 2/3 we should let some more people say what they think before tiering lilligant.

The thing is, a resisted STAB Petal Dance still has 90 base power, which gives you solid "neutral" coverage, especially after you set up. Sure, stuff like Crobat, Skarmory, Ferrothorn still walls you but how many of those do you face ingame? (Close to 0, in case you were wondering). After one or two Quiver Dances, neutral Giga Drain does massive damage while also healing you for a consistent amount of HP. Giga Drain that you get as early as level 26, which is also the recommended level for evolving. The 4/8 gym leader statement is incorrect as half of them (Roxie, Burgh) are faced before even getting her . from level 28 onwards Liligant can setup and sweep:
- Elesa
- Clay
- Not Drayden because of Dragon Tail which naturally counters setup pokes (not because grass is resisted. Flygon's neutral and Haxorus can't take two petal dances or even one after quiver dancing. Druddigon blows.)
- Water dude whose name I can't remember
- Most of Ghetsis
- Marshall
- Grimsley
- Caitlin
And pretty much anything specially based after one or two Quiver Dances.

Also, one you get for trade always has
- Own Tempo
- Max Special Attack IV
- Timid Nature

Everyone who voted for High (which would include me but I rated it so I don't count) has actually used it and knows that it literally plows through almost everything, resisted damage or not. It's way better than it looks on paper, I was using one just for the lulz (my grass choice usually being Sawsbuck or Ferrothorn, but my team was already too physical) and I ended up surprised.

I [3/3] upper middle for Lilligant. Sure it gets perfect "neutral" coverage, BUT it still needs to set up to have any considerable threat. It still has a lot of weaknesses, and there are a lot of types that it is hit super effective by in-game. Almost any physical attack will likely KO it quickly.

In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

+ Found early
+ Has a good move in U-Turn in its arsenal.
- useless or near-useless in 5 of 8 gyms, horrible with team plasma, and horrible with the E4 (even Marshall pwns it)
- learns way too many special based attacks, which doesn't play well with its horrible SpA
- outclassed by Skarmory, Sigilyph, and almost every other Flying type, especially Braviary, which learns many more coverage moves.

In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

+ Great Movepool with the Offensive stats to back it up
- Low Defenses makes Coil a hassle to setup
- Relies on Poison Tail for STAB until Poison Jab (Lv 42)
- Spe stat leaves much to be desired
- A good chunk of it's movepool obtained very late

I'm still on the fence with Lilligant tbh. The fact that it requires setup to deal with some of the more common types (Poison and Steel ala Team Plasma) really cuts it down, no matter how easy the setup may be. It'd go straight to High if it had some form of coverage move, but as it stands, Mono-Grass just doesn't cut it for me. I won't cast a vote, but those are my two cents on Lilligant.

I'm using a Lilligant on Challenge Mode White 2 (that is, not even the trade), and it is brilliance, so I'll make the case here for it.

Setting up Quiver Dance on this thing is so easy, it's stupid. Lilligant's fast enough that you can Sleep Powder them immediately, and two or three QDs is generally all it takes to start ripping massive holes in basically everything, since after two QDs double SpA pretty much balances out half base power. Is it -ideal- against Poisons? No, it's not, but expecting it take them on reasonably is like expecting Conkeldurr to take on Psychics, or expecting Braviary to fight Rocks and Steels. Half of the Frigate is other things anyway (Krokoroks, Scraftys, Raticates, Watchogs, Liepards, to name a few), which Lilligant handles quite well anyway. It's not Lilligant's shining moment by any means, but tell that to Magnemite when it's in Driftveil City.

The point of QD is for the bosses. You don't need it for the mooks, they already die to Giga Drain/Petal Dance. Just throw Sleep Powder at something, set up on it, and go to town. Clay, for all his Excadrill, is swept. Even Skyla's Skarmory is set-up bait (well, on Normal Mode, anyway). Marlon is a joke. Colress can't do much to you, outside of Klinklang and Magnezone's Explosion, but Magneton is set-up bait and you should have Sleep Powder. Ghetsis's Cofagrigus is set-up bait (though that would mean having to fight Kyurem with Lilli). So are Shauntal's Cofagrigus and Caitlin's Musharna.

Lilligant stands tall and proud amongst the greats, even without a coverage move. Wherever there are weak special attacks being thrown around, she can Quiver Dance. Wherever Pokemon lack Insomnia, she can Quiver Dance. Wherever the AI can't phaze you, she can Quiver Dance.

Leech Seed is also cool.

Also, are the write-ups in the OP set in stone? Just skimming them, I'm seeing some questionable claims (Shadow Ball is good on Metagross, Roselia can't evolve until Opelucid), and some of the tierings look like they're more theorymon than practicemon (having used Conkeldurr, I would not rate it Top, that's fishizzle). For that matter, there doesn't appear to be any standard for what constitutes certain availability ratings; for example, Route 4 is labelled as everything from Early to Mid-Early to Midgame.

I used Lilligant in Black (bred one early because I didn't want the exp. boost) and it was fantastic. Sure, its only real attacking move is Grass-type, but that's all it needs. It's so simple to use, too - you Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance a few times, and Giga Drain everything to death (which should restore most if not all of the HP Lilligant lost setting up). Even Pokémon that resist Giga Drain become less of an issue after sleep and setup. I didn't even use Petal Dance because a boosted Giga Drain was so strong and so useful for letting Lilligant survive. If that's not enough bulk for you, it has Synthesis or Leech Seed. It's got to go in the High tier for me.

Also, I know Alomomola has already been tiered, but putting it in the same tier as dross like Liepard? You're having a laugh. Its special defence is not as detrimental as the tier entry makes out because of its massive HP stat. Sure, it kills things slowly, but at least it can actually kill things unlike so much of the bottom tier. And when "kill things" becomes "kill most physical attackers in the entire game if you're patient", then it deserves to be at least Low.

Also, a mistake with Galvantula - the accuracy boost from Compoundeyes is multiplicative, not additive, so it will sometimes miss with Thunder (91% accuracy with Compoundeyes).

And I know I've mentioned this before, but the hate for two-turn moves in-game is baffling to me. You only have to wait about five extra seconds before they hit, for goodness' sake. Is that really enough to suggest weaker alternatives like Bulldoze and Aerial Ace?

Last edited by TotalPotato; 19th November 2012 at 12:22 PM.

100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
Hold on... if this percentage was correct at the time of print, that means the actual percentage of false information is less than 100% if this signature is included. Which means that... no! I've become a slave to the system!!

The problem with Alomomola is that you don't get Toxic that early in the game and it has a pretty awful physical movepool, so until you can get Aqua Tail or Waterfall, you'll be stuck with Wake Up Slap and Aqua Jet fired off from a base 70 attack or something like that. If you want a bulky water use Jellicent, it has way more variety with Will-O-Wisp and usable Sp. Attack, better typing, better abilities, etc.

For Galvantula, maybe it's not perfectly written, but it never says "thunder has perfect accuracy".
It says:
+It's Ability means it'll never suffer from misshax (= Even after Sand Attack/Double Team/similar move, a 100% accurate move will still avoid the "miss hax")
+Thunder + Compoundeyes is a fantastic combination (91% accurate move with 30% paralysis chance, 10 PP and 120 BP IS a wonderful combination, it doesn't say it cannot miss)

Good point about Alomomola, I'd forgotten how late Toxic and Waterfall are in this game. I still think Bottom should be reserved for the absolute worst like Liepard and co., but I guess that's just my perspective.

The only things I can think of that use Protect or Detect against you in the entire game are the Patrat line, the Venipede line, the Pidove line, and Pelipper - maybe Zangoose and Absol too, I'm not sure (I don't remember ever facing a Tirtouga, Alomomola or Mienfoo that knew Protect or Detect). Most of those are early in the game, anyway. Iron Defense Boldore is annoying for Dig, for sure, but against most Pokémon, I think Fly and Dig are better than Aerial Ace and Bulldoze.

I thought the Galvantula entry implied that you never had to worry about an attack missing, and considering that you'd probably use Thunder as your main move, it seemed a bit misleading. Thunder + Compoundeyes is definitely a wonderful combination, though.

Last edited by TotalPotato; 19th November 2012 at 3:21 PM.

100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
Hold on... if this percentage was correct at the time of print, that means the actual percentage of false information is less than 100% if this signature is included. Which means that... no! I've become a slave to the system!!

Also, are the write-ups in the OP set in stone? Just skimming them, I'm seeing some questionable claims (Shadow Ball is good on Metagross, Roselia can't evolve until Opelucid), and some of the tierings look like they're more theorymon than practicemon (having used Conkeldurr, I would not rate it Top, that's fishizzle). For that matter, there doesn't appear to be any standard for what constitutes certain availability ratings; for example, Route 4 is labelled as everything from Early to Mid-Early to Midgame.

Once we have all 140ish eligible pokemon tiered, then we'll review each one and neaten it all up. I expect that'll start in about 3 weeks.

Originally Posted by TotalPotato

Also, I know Alomomola has already been tiered, but putting it in the same tier as dross like Liepard? You're having a laugh. Its special defence is not as detrimental as the tier entry makes out because of its massive HP stat. Sure, it kills things slowly, but at least it can actually kill things unlike so much of the bottom tier. And when "kill things" becomes "kill most physical attackers in the entire game if you're patient", then it deserves to be at least Low.

Well, for much of the game Alomomola cannot do a thing. At all. Until Seaside Cave its movepool is Return, Aqua Jet, Wish and Wake-Up Slap. Granted, its Wishes are massive, but its not enough to be a viable battler. When it does finally get the ability to do damage, it takes about 5 turns per pokemon to defeat them. That is horribly inefficient compared to just about any other pokmon you could choose who typically 2 and occasionally 3KO opponents with little difficulty.

Yay glad more people see that Lilligant is amazing. *waits for retiering*

@TotalPotato; personally I think moves like Fly, Dig, Bounce and Dive are fine because, since you're invulnerable for a turn, it really only takes a few extra seconds. I think the two turn moves to be avoided though are things like Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Frenzy Plant (and other variants) since you'll be hit by the opponent twice while only dealing damage to them once.

Sorry I don't really have anything to add atm but I'll edit in a tiering if I get some time.

+ Has some great Stats
+ Caught as a Volcarona at level 35.
+ Can get STAB Singal beam as soon as caught.
+ Very Strong late game.
- Weak Fire STAB until you get Flamethrower or Fire Blast.
- All good level up moves require high level.
- Relies on TM's or Move Tutors later in game for most moves.

I've never used this one in game before so if anyone else had I would like to know how well it does. I think it could get by ok with just signal beam for part of the game just because of it's great stats. It might be able to get quiver dance around the time you get to the E4 where he could do well. I also left a couple moves out that it learns at much higer levels then you would probaly ever get by the time you reach the E4.

Seviper for Low [2/3]. Slow frail and its offences fail to compensate.

Volcarona for Middle [1/3]. Its stuck with Signal Beam and Ember(and Roost I guess) until Lacunosa Town gives you Fire Blast, which is pretty terrible. No Quiver Dance until lvl 59 isn't good either, as you're likely to beat the E4 before then. It might also be worth mentioning it has a catch rate of 15, which rivals most legendaries.
But of course, once he gets all his moves he becomes one of the best pokemon in the game.

@lilligant A mono-type pokemon with only one type of move can't really be justified pasted upper-middle unless your name is darmanitan (but even then he has EQ, superpower, rock slide etc). Setting up and locked into a single move seems pretty KO-bait to me when you meet something that resists you. Lilligant isn't gunna be making much impact on Iris, drayden, colress and skyla to name a few. It will also struggle to really 'sweep' anything due to set up+poor defences on top of grass only moves. Not to mention Grass doesn't suit BW2 at all.

Sleep powder is too hit-or-miss and besides thats 2 turns (assuming quiver dance) of setting up before you even get the KO. 'AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT!'.jpg

I think the two turn moves to be avoided though are things like Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Frenzy Plant (and other variants) since you'll be hit by the opponent twice while only dealing damage to them once.

If you KO them with the move, though, you can switch out immediately after (provided that you're on Shift Mode, of course).

Thing is, most Pokemon have better things to be doing with the moveslot. The only Pokemon I'd ever really consider putting Giga Impact on would be Unfezant, because Return/Fly/Quick/Attack/Leer is just sad. Everything else either has a better STAB move or has coverage moves they could run instead.

Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw

@lilligant A mono-type pokemon with only one type of move can't really be justified pasted upper-middle unless your name is darmanitan (but even then he has EQ, superpower, rock slide etc). Setting up and locked into a single move seems pretty KO-bait to me when you meet something that resists you. Lilligant isn't gunna be making much impact on Iris, drayden, colress and skyla to name a few. It will also struggle to really 'sweep' anything due to set up+poor defences on top of grass only moves. Not to mention Grass doesn't suit BW2 at all.

The point is, you set up on things that would normally crush you (because Lilligant has the raw offensive stats to muscle through anything that doesn't resist her without needing to set-up), and then proceed to crush them into the ground using Giga Drain/Petal Dance. When your SpA and Speed stats are so goddamn high, resistances become laughable; Lilligant sweeps right through them. You named Colress as a fight Lilligant can't win, but Lilligant can if she needs to: most of his team is specially-based, lacks anything SE on her, and is slower than her, making it set-up bait even if you're stupid like me and forgot Sleep Powder. 1v1, Lilligant can set up on Skyla's Skarmory, too, and muscle through both it and her Swanna (Leech Seeding Skarm from the start gives both steady damage and decent healing). Meanwhile, Clay? Marlon? Lilligant sh*ts all over both of them. Ghetsis? Cofagrigus is set-up bait (though you will have to use Lilli to fight Kyurem initially, which is bad because Kyu probably just KOs even through QD boosts). Shauntal? Same deal. Caitlin? Musharna can't do jack to Lilligant.

Honestly, I can't help but notice that both here and on other forums, the people who have actually played with and tested Lilligant call it top-tier material, whereas the people who haven't just theorymon it to be Middish. I would highly advise at least playing with Lilli and using her instead of just basing your decision on "oh, it's pure Grass and doesn't have moves, not that great." There's so much more to it than that, and the way it just outright cheeses like six major bosses certainly puts it up there with the likes of Haxorus and Conkeldurr.

To be honest, anything can be TOP-tier material if you level up 5 levels over the trainers pokemon and any pokemon can set up '2x' sword dances and win fights. But alot of this is based on in-game uses for major battles and coverage and lillys grass typing lets it down throughout the game. How is Skarmory 'set up bait'? It has 140 defence and resists grass (your only move) by 4x. Lets be honest lilligant has major flaws but also major strengths. For me its a upper-mid poke still because he has no coverage which is a wasted slot imo.

I get your point about 'theorymon' alot of this thread annoys me when people look at stats and just immediately tier it based on that without even playing through with it *ahem* jellicent *ahem*. Can we maybe get some sort of experience needed to tier a pokemon - atleast one person has to of used the said pokemon in a run through or something similar?

I get your point about 'theorymon' alot of this thread annoys me when people look at stats and just immediately tier it based on that without even playing through with it *ahem* jellicent *ahem*. Can we maybe get some sort of experience needed to tier a pokemon - atleast one person has to of used the said pokemon in a run through or something similar?

This is ideal, but there are much more pokemon than active raters here, meaning we'll need 2-3 playthroughs each to be able to tier everything, and there are a lot of very unambiguous tierings (Magnezone, Delibird etc.) that don't need it. Plus, what kind of sad person would go through 40 hours of Liepard? *b-b-b-burn*
For more difficult tierings like Lilligant I think it'd help to cite experience, as nothing beats it imo. The only problem with it is a lot more subjective. If a player usually uses average or bad pokemon like Victreebel or Mightyena, then Lilligant will be one of the best pokemon they've ever owned. If someone normally uses pseudo-legends and legendaries, Lilligant just won't pull her weight.
It makes me wonder whether we should take this into account. But then again, we can't have tierings becoming 'this is relatively worse than everything in Low so it should be Bottom' since we also need to single out the pokemon and how it performs against the criteria in the OP.
And now my brain hurts. Damn you Lilligant.

To be honest, anything can be TOP-tier material if you level up 5 levels over the trainers pokemon

I played with PistilWhip at the same level as my other five 'mons. I was underleveled, if anything, considering that I used it on Challenge Mode.

Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw

and any pokemon can set up '2x' sword dances and win fights.

Not if it can't take hits and not if it can't outspeed. Quiver Dance lets Lilli do both.

Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw

How is Skarmory 'set up bait'? It has 140 defence and resists grass (your only move) by 4x.

Because it is bait that you set up on. Skarm's Flying move (on Normal Mode, at least) is Air Cutter, which QD defends against and runs off of Skarm's weaker offensive stat. 4 Quiver Dances is 300% SpA, and after 5/6 turns of Leech Seed damage that's enough to KO. 140 Defense is irrelevant against a Pokemon using a special move.

Should you, ideally, be throwing Lilligant at Skyla? Hopefully not. The fact that you can do so and have a reasonable chance of winning anyway, however, is just proof of Lilligant's innate awesomeness. If we're penalizing Lilligant for sucking against Skyla, why isn't Braviary so penalized for sucking against Elesa? Why is Heracross not penalized for sucking against Skyla?

Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw

Can we maybe get some sort of experience needed to tier a pokemon - atleast one person has to of used the said pokemon in a run through or something similar?

I am that experience. As is zhanton. As is TotalPotato. All of us are arguing for it.

EDIT: @ Aurawarrior8: For reference, I'm using Lilligant on a team of Ampharos/Lucario/Adamant Unfezant/Darmanitan/Modest Excadrill/Timid Lilligant (not the traded one), and I'm doing so on Challenge Mode. I'd call Lilligant the 2nd MVP after Darmanitan.

Gliscor - Upper Middle [3/3] (Aurawarrior8, Dragoniteftw, a person)

I beat Iris with an unevolved Gligar (because I had no idea there was a free Razor Fang available using Waterfall). I'd call that Upper Middle, and I'd say Gliscor would be about the same (better stats and full strength Acrobatics balancing out Eviolite).

BTW, if there are any specific Pokemon you guys want tested, I'd be happy to give them a whirl to see how they do.

Originally Posted by TotalPotato

Well, I'd also say that Rock Wrecker is really good on Crustle, since it can Shell Smash when slower, outspeed on the next turn, KO and switch out immediately. Before you beat the game, Stone Edge is not an option, so Rock Wrecker is as good as two Rock Slides anyway. It doesn't learn the move until very late, though (Level 55).

You'd lose your Shell Smash boosts, though. Given that you'd likely take a pretty good hit after Smashing, if not being -at- 1 HP after doing so, it's a bit awkward if you want Crustle to do things later in the fight, and +2 Rock Slide is probably sufficient damage anyway. Still, I guess it's worth looking into, since Crustle's coverage options are rather lackluster and Crustle doesn't have to come back into the fight.

On second thought, I'd probably add Sawsbuck and maybe Stoutland to the list of things that should be using Giga Impact as well.

The Pokemon I've used list isn't as extensive as TP's, as I don't normally do multiple runs of the same game. On Gen V, the ones I've used enough to have good experience with them (as lines) are Tepig, Lillipup, Patrat, Pansage, Sandile, Tirtouga, Sigilyph, Cobalion, Oshawott, Magnemite, Growlithe, Espeon, Timburr, Gligar, Mareep, Riolu, Pidove, Darumaka, Drilbur, Petilil, and I think that's it. I've also got experience in past generations as well.

If you KO them with the move, though, you can switch out immediately after (provided that you're on Shift Mode, of course).

Thing is, most Pokemon have better things to be doing with the moveslot. The only Pokemon I'd ever really consider putting Giga Impact on would be Unfezant, because Return/Fly/Quick/Attack/Leer is just sad. Everything else either has a better STAB move or has coverage moves they could run instead.

Well, I'd also say that Rock Wrecker is really good on Crustle, since it can Shell Smash when slower, outspeed on the next turn, KO and switch out immediately. Before you beat the game, Stone Edge is not an option, so Rock Wrecker is as good as two Rock Slides anyway. It doesn't learn the move until very late, though (Level 55).

Yeah, my piece on Alomomola was a bit too hasty. I'd forgotten just how late the tools to make it semi-useful came in Black 2 and White 2. Bottom is fine.

Hmm, I played the original Black a fair few times, so I can't remember exactly what I used with Lilligant. The Pokémon I've completed Black or Black 2 with so far are Serperior, Samurott, Emboar, Liepard, Watchog, Simipour, Musharna, Unfezant, Excadrill, Leavanny, Scolipede, Conkeldurr, Lilligant, Whimsicott, Krookodile, Darmanitan, Crustle, Cofagrigus, Gothitelle, Vanilluxe, Emolga, Galvantula, Beheeyem, Alomomola, Fraxure, Larvesta, Golurk, Pawniard, Bouffalant, Durant, Ampharos, Weezing, Sigilyph, Sawsbuck and Mienshao. I didn't use them all against the Elite Four, but I think I've used a wide enough range for my opinion to be credible.

Last edited by TotalPotato; 21st November 2012 at 3:41 AM.

100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
Hold on... if this percentage was correct at the time of print, that means the actual percentage of false information is less than 100% if this signature is included. Which means that... no! I've become a slave to the system!!

My god a lot has happened within the past few days. For reference, I've been busy preparing for finals and stuff so expect less posts / edits from me.

I've gone ahead and moved Lilligant to High Tier because it seems like the thing everyone argued for. That being said, I'd like everyone to avoid mentioning retiers if at all possible. I'd like to get a complete tiering done before doing any major editting.

Also, are the write-ups in the OP set in stone? Just skimming them, I'm seeing some questionable claims (Shadow Ball is good on Metagross, Roselia can't evolve until Opelucid), and some of the tierings look like they're more theorymon than practicemon (having used Conkeldurr, I would not rate it Top, that's fishizzle). For that matter, there doesn't appear to be any standard for what constitutes certain availability ratings; for example, Route 4 is labelled as everything from Early to Mid-Early to Midgame.

tbh the tierings atm are more placeholders than anything. The inconsistencies are mostly because there hasn't been an established criterias on lcation / moves / whatever else. Yes, this is a very sloppy system and it will eventually come to haunt me, but I honestly don't have the time to go through the 50+ tierings that have been accepted and fix every little nitbit.

Well, I'd also say that Rock Wrecker is really good on Crustle, since it can Shell Smash when slower, outspeed on the next turn, KO and switch out immediately. Before you beat the game, Stone Edge is not an option, so Rock Wrecker is as good as two Rock Slides anyway. It doesn't learn the move until very late, though (Level 55).

Not really. The general arguement against two-turn moves is that those two turns can be used better. Going back to Rock Wrecker Crustle, sure, Two Rock Slides equal to the amount of damage that a single Rock Wrecker but you have to consider that you have two turns to work with, and even at +2, Rock Wrecker isn't a guaranteed KO which will really screw with you which means you'll be taking two hits instead of the one you'd take by using Rock Slide. Crustle has all the tools it really needs in Rock Slide / Shell Smash / X-Scissor / Bulldoze or Return so there you go.

On second thought, I'd probably add Sawsbuck and maybe Stoutland to the list of things that should be using Giga Impact as well.

I suppose Sawsbuck could take advantage of Giga Impact, given how it can use Horn Leech to make up for the damage taken through it's recharge turn. Stoutland, not so much.