9 comments:

Yo Taririray, not to be disrespectful and break your rule on avoiding academics for the next semester or whatev, but can ya'll help me out? Just read your post on sexism on the Laser Time forums responding to that misogynist dude sayin' how marganilized peeps hardly exist anymore (which is suprising considering the whole New York and Arizona laws getting so much coverage) and was wondering if you could send those feminist essays my way (if they're available on the internet). That said, any other books/clips/etc. you can link me to as well is much appreciated. I can't afford college right now and am trying to self educate as best as I can.

Also, sorry if this seems way too off-topic (I tried remedying that with my first sentence's transition) but I would have posted this on the Laser Time forums, but I feel to uncomfortable posting there. Most people there are either racist, homophobic, or downright ignorant enough to keep me from seeing that place as any sort of surrogate social space I feel I can be open with.

Of course, this isn't some form of slander towards any of the Laser Time crew. I think they are some goshdarn cool doods; I just don't like most of the fan base surrounding it...

I’m sorry to read that you don’t feel comfortable discussing these issues in the LT forums. I agree with you that a lot of the threads often degenerate into herp-a-derp, brosky, dickwaddery in a lame attempt to be funny.

However, you are correct with surmising that the LT crew are a bunch of epic dudes and are very forward thinking regardless of what goes on in the forums.

The majority of feminist essays are super BORING and horribly snore inducing. Also, there are numerous conflicting arguments.

I will start first with simple things that take no time to read but are often a bit thought provoking. They’re just little things like comics or videos. Cause seriously, essays are *snore*.

I would forewarn you to first understand the difference between feminist theory and the ‘men totally suck and are spawned from Satan’s testicles’ theory. Which makes no sense because last I checked, men were spawned from women too (unless of course, women ARE Satan’s testicles…)

http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=341

This particular comic artist tends to do a few pieces on feminism. Kate Beaton is actually a funny historian so it think its just well worth checking out her comics in general – they are hilarious in their own right and you don’t need to know anything about history to get it

http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=336

I suggest Jenna Marbles

http://www.youtube.com/user/JennaMarbles .

She disguises some extremely important arguments under the guise of comedy, inane arguments and what I assume is a heavy Jersey accent. But she is really subtle and a lot of people just think she is a blonde dill or some camwhore. I can assure you that beneath that sexy blonde exterior, she is one fiercely awesome lady.

As for the heavy hitting essays. I reckon the private/public dichotomy is actually a good place to start. I am using stupid ass words and I assure you, I didn’t invent them.

I also have physical copies of old essays and I am happy to scan you some copies if you are interested.

Geez, this is hard and I’m already writing a wall of text. I think that it would be best if you asked for specific issues. Like the above, I have introduced you to the public/private dichotomy – from there you can make your own investigations.

Are there any particular things you want to know more about?

If anything please feel free to contact me if you want more specific information or if you need to be pointed in a particular direction.

I’m really sorry if none of this is helpful – its just that feminism isn’t a clear cut easy subject, let alone an actual subject at all.

Thanks however for taking the time to ask me. College has never been a pre-requisite to want to learn more and curiosity is free anyway.

Again, don’t hesitate to contact me either here or on the Laser Time forums – I know there is a function to privately message people but if you want to remain anonymous, I’m totally down with your super secret agent self too.

A final, final note (I promise) – is the suggestion that you visit the Society Pages – this particular article on there might be an interesting start, but I assure you there are loads upon loads of articles, not just on feminism but on other social issues.http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/05/magic-mike-old-sexism-in-a-new-package/

Hopefully this helps, infinite apologies also if I made your eyes bleed with useless text and nonsense.

Thanks! I was actually going to ask next if you knew any 'general' social movement websites but that last one ought to do it.

I actually tried private messaging you on the LT (I'm not a journalist) forums at first, but the function wasn't working so I tried here instead.

I understand that feminism is a polarizing topic - even among feminist - but I do have a genuine interest in what people would call 'women haters' (not my words, but the collective 'their'). I actually want to know as much as possible regarding these things. At the very least, there would be something worth getting out of it right. Don't think this results in an obligation on your part though. Like you said before, you've given me enough at length to dive into the topic independently from here. If anything, I would be happy if there were other topics I'm not aware of that you wouldn't mind bringing to light (I'm a huge pleb so there are certaintly plenty).

On one last note, don't worry about tl;dr type posts (unless you feel it takes too much of your time doing so), I've never understood the mentality of others regarding such a thing. With more content, hopefully more could be learned, yes? Well I mean not all the time... but enough for it not to be as chastised as it is.

On an ACTUAL last note; it seems odd to see you apologising on the LT forums (where you embeded that webcomic). Doesn't your identity and freedoms hinge on the fact that people understand the basic needs someone needs. I can't speak as a woman obviously, but I'd kinda be pissed if basic rights that everyone should have were questioned on my behalf (almost kinda is given my racial ethnicity, but not my gender). Or do you feel it's neccessary to take the 'catch more flies with honey' approach. I ultimately have to respect your decision either way - and you need not answer this query if need be - but was just something I was wondering.

You’re welcome! – firstly I will post my response in two posts because I am faffing about again with lots of words.

I don’t feel obligated at all! just a tad worried I may be leading you onto corridors of excessive and stuffy academia. Its nice to talk about these things anyhoo.

Also, you have used one of my ultimate favourite words; ‘pleb’. Therefore I grant you all the internet cakes that you may ever wish for. You most certainly don’t appear to be a pleb in any way, shape or form though.

I actually found it easy to understand a lot of feminist theories because I had a good grasp of how world history has shaped our society. Its thought that humanity’s movement from hunter-gatherer societies to become agrarian ones was (to the minds of some more militant feminist thinkers) the beginning of the "tyranny of patriarchy".

That is to say, once we established ourselves as sedentary farmers, society began to stratify. People were given specific roles and hierarchies were established and those who eventually gained power did so because they had the strength to gather all that power unto themselves. Women were relegated to ‘domestic’ roles and men, who were probably involved in a lot of defence of territory roles eventually assumed social positions of power through the use of violence. Or not. Who knows, but it seems to many, a likely pattern.

Women haters emerge not so much from men who have this ingrained hatred of women or this ingrained sense of masculine superiority. Its just that history has hard wired us down to the cellular level to believe that we MUST STAY IN THE ROLES WE WERE GIVEN AS FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME LEST ARMAGEDDON COME.

Which is why they feel so threatened by all this feminist nonsense. Its almost been bred into our DNA. We have had at least 10,000 years of human civilisation to evolve this kind of thinking. Its not easy for either one of us. And it is damaging to men too, all this boxing and tabbing and bagging and classifying of identities according to gender or ‘type’ isnt healthy for anyone and it leads to the stunding of our growth as a society.

I completely and utterly understand and apologise if I have made absolutely no sense at all.

TL:DR – gender identity and the problems it creates was created by historical events. There is little to no way to reverse that other than another huge paradigmatic shift or the evolution of mutants. Because no one would dare put Storm down if their valued their life.

If you want to understand misogyny I also suggest looking at studies regarding homophobia and societal reactions to homosexuality. Gay rights is feminism’s cousin in that sense. (If it even made sense at all).

Also – be slightly wary that some of the sites I have suggested to you may or may not have certain ideological slants. I don’t particularly like a the above forums' stuff but sometimes you find something that makes you think.

On the LT forums, I am keenly aware of the demographic that I am immersing myself.

As much as I would love to say that everyone is like-minded and shares the same ideas and ideals as the LT gang, this conversation is being had because clearly, that is not the case.

Experience has taught me to tread carefully in places where:

a) non-verbal and non-physical communication is used, because you cannot over or under estimate the way someone reads your post. More often than not, people post so that they get a reaction. If it is not the one they were expecting, the poster will lash out in defense. This is not always because of immaturity or wankery but because of a lack of thinking critically about social interactions, understanding context, etc;

b) as you said – ‘catching flies with honey’ is diplomacy that really, really helps in internet social communication forums. Because I essentially posted a wall of text which rebutted all of the OP’s points. In today’s TL:DR world, my post would have been largely skimmed over, and misread, and possibly, taken out of context.

Therefore, I have to play the diplomat, be slightly apologetic, these are my two cents, they’re not even my cents, I’m just repeating other, more important and authoritative figures’ words. Because if I decided to input my opposition with just my well-formed and authoritative opinion you can bet my brand new pairs of stereotype reinforcing shoes that they’d assume I was being the defensive feminazi. This leads me to;

c) the fact that you noticed my ‘apology’ – I made special emphasis in that post of the mere fact that I even needed to tread carefully because of the fact that we were talking about gender and equality issues. That in itself was me making a point. ‘See this? see how I am objecting – its because poor little ol’ me is already aware that I may be stepping on some of your big manly toes by stepping out of line and not keeping my empowerin’ opinions to myself. And I’m going to feel so down and awful for potentially starting a shitstorm even though there is no shit to storm about’. Because the fact of the matter is, as soon as anyone pipes up about something like that, someone is going to get all contrarian in someone’s ass.

Can you imagine if I had used a more direct approach? how much longer that thread would have been? and even worse, how no one would have read the information I was posting and just got mad instead of gotten educated?

Finally, after this wall of text (again) – I mostly feel that your description of flies unto honey is the main reason why I posted that way. I have been told that I intimidate because of the way I talk, which I know is true and so I need to soften the blow of my opinionated self. Its no good being a prissy and bitchy know-it-all if you cant share that knowledge for good. Or something. I know I’m smart and I know I can formulate better arguments than others sometimes but that shouldn’t make me act like some arrogant so and so, even when my basic rights are being questioned.

Also, as someone who has been discriminated against moreso for my ethnic background than for my gender, I also took it as a challenge to expand my own understanding of what this guy considered bigotry to be. The OP meant well and seeing as no one got up in my business about it, either learnt something from it or just didn’t bother. There’s loss and gain.

So, again, for the umpteenth time. I apologise for the roundabout and lengthy way I answered your questions.

Again, feel free to contact me with thoughts or whatever! (if you can stand the terrible writing!)

(In advance, please forgive the potentially unbearable "Me:, You:'s" in this post; bloggers comment system has no italics and whatnot, so I tried to deal with what I have on this end. Also, as a precautionary, I am no longer Anonymous! Revel in the transparent change that really isn't... really that significant... :( )

You: “Its thought that humanity’s movement from hunter-gatherer societies to become agrarian ones was (to the minds of some more militant feminist thinkers) the beginning of the "tyranny of patriarchy".

That is to say, once we established ourselves as sedentary farmers, society began to stratify. People were given specific roles and hierarchies were established and those who eventually gained power did so because they had the strength to gather all that power unto themselves. Women were relegated to ‘domestic’ roles and men, who were probably involved in a lot of defence of territory roles eventually assumed social positions of power through the use of violence. Or not. Who knows, but it seems to many, a likely pattern.”

Me: This is more or less what I surmised from a Mexican American Studies class I sorta… stole (basically, sitting in on various classes multiple times without being registered in them at various community/state colleges). /Part 1

You: “Women haters emerge not so much from men who have this ingrained hatred of women or this ingrained sense of masculine superiority. Its just that history has hard wired us down to the cellular level to believe that we MUST STAY IN THE ROLES WE WERE GIVEN AS FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME LEST ARMAGEDDON COME.”

Me: Hmm, I always viewed it as a natural reaction for being as grossly marginalized as women have been -- especially considering the freedoms they more recently have are less than a hundred years old. Your viewpoint actually has me thinking of this from a more interesting perspective.

You: “On the LT forums … More often than not, people post so that they get a reaction. If it is not the one they were expecting, the poster will lash out in defense. This is not always because of immaturity or wankery but because of a lack of thinking critically about social interactions, understanding context, etc;

b) as you said – ‘catching flies with honey’ is diplomacy that really, really helps in internet social communication forums. Because I essentially posted a wall of text which rebutted all of the OP’s points. In today’s TL:DR world, my post would have been largely skimmed over, and misread, and possibly, taken out of context. … ‘See this? see how I am objecting – its because poor little ol’ me is already aware that I may be stepping on some of your big manly toes by stepping out of line and not keeping my empowerin’ opinions to myself. And I’m going to feel so down and awful for potentially starting a shitstorm even though there is no shit to storm about’.”

Me: :) You’re either too nice -- or too humble -- to say that the migration of forum posters from a typical gaming site behaving in typical internet gamer behavior results in much pussyfooting around topics that should be more easier to discuss if they weren’t sheltered enough (due to the common gamer demographic) to shove off anyone that came in with a different perspective on things. Again, it’s kinda difficult for me to stomach this sort of behavior (hence, the harsh aspersions towards them).

You: “I know I’m smart and I know I can formulate better arguments than others sometimes but that shouldn’t make me act like some arrogant so and so, even when my basic rights are being questioned. … So, again, for the umpteenth time. I apologise for the roundabout and lengthy way I answered your questions.

Again, feel free to contact me with thoughts or whatever! (if you can stand the terrible writing!)”

Me: I always feel uncomfortable when people go on a self deprecating spree… which is why it’s a good thing the first part of the post represents some form of self-esteem. It may stem from attempting to be a humble person, but as often as I’ve seen various articles on the internet (sometimes even outside the internet) behave in a self deprecating manner, the more I’ve seen it as something to be slightly sad about… (just commenting on the pattern, not you in particular in this case). /the actual end

Let me officially welcome you to… um… my blog? Mr Anonymoose. Also Moose are ridiculously awesome. (Really, I have a thing for deer and moose and anything with antlers – not that kind of thing though…)

Apologies for my late entry, I am currently finalising my latest blog for posting and finishing off products that I will be selling at a convention this coming weekend. Therefore my jaunty viking craft hat is a bit droopy today (interpret that analogy as you wish).

I would love to hear what you have to say about those things too. I had to take the pre-requisite Latin American politics class in sophomore or whatever year back in the day and I wonder about more updated theories. Especially since I think Mexico has a particular skew that is different from the rest of its southern neighbours.

On your Point, “I always viewed it as a natural reaction for being as grossly marginalized as women have been -- especially considering the freedoms they more recently have are less than a hundred years old.”

I agree with your statement, women have recently achieved fair rights in a lot of things only recently. I also like the fact that you have used the word ‘marginalised’. This implies that women have been kept separate or apart. It’s a spatial concept but it also explains what you said. Women, in the past hundred years or so have finally been allowed to occupy the same social spaces as men. We are no longer held apart. Some women haters, feeling that this is either unnatural or that their ‘territory’ is being threatened, lash out.

With the subsequent blurring of these conceptual ‘borders’ that society has held itself by, we get essentially, a fight to preserve social roles and modes of thinking that have been in place for thousands of years. Hence the fight for gay rights as well.

Identity and classification of people based on gender identities are becoming fluid. Some people can’t cope with that. I have sympathy for that kind of conservative thinking simply because I can imagine it is in fact difficult to think differently otherwise. Time is the one thing on everyone’s side I guess, and we have never been in a better era to question the way we think and behave than now.

As for the way I comment in a mildly self-deprecating way. Well, I need to do it. I don’t think it is sad at all. It is super important that I NEVER TALK DOWN TO PEOPLE. Being smart does not give me the right to be arrogant. I worked hard to learn the things I know and more than anything, I want people to learn and share their thoughts with me.

Acting all academic doesn’t help and isolates people. I don’t know everything and my thoughts can be countered or rejected outright and I have to remember that.

That’s why its important to, at least in this limited non-verbal medium of typing and forum posting and blogging to be somewhat wary. Not everyone will understand me, but I can make myself amiable or fallible enough that people will still give me the time of day and post their responses or two cents, or at least bother to read my entries the whole way through.

I don’t think it’s a gender thing most of the time (at least for me), but more of a making sure I don’t act like an arrogant prat.

I hope I haven’t talked down to you or anything or acted patronising in any way as I am immensely pleased to be chatting to you. I don’t know if that is the case for everyone who does it but sometimes it’s the only way to express some form of humility in typed format.

Also – I am really crappy at Steam stuff, mainly because my computer is misbehaving but I have to say – YEY FOR ANOTHER MAPLE STORY PLAYER!!!! those terrible terrible mushrooms… I have an obscene love affair with them… I tried playing again because I have an account from around 6 years ago… restarted playing and got utterly bewildered by the changes…

Sorry to keep beating the dead horse - but if you are still interested - we recently had the Festival of Dangerous Ideas here in Sydney and one of the lead writers of feminist rhetoric, Germaine Greer came and had a go.Didn't get to go but had friends who did and gave me the low down.But a lot of the videos, as well as those about other interesting issues are on the site:

http://fodi.sydneyoperahouse.com/#videos/

Germaine's can be accessed there and here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CITBPjJCU9o&feature=player_embedded

I cant say I agree with everything or maybe I feel there are more to her arguments than she can talk about in an interview, maybe.

If you're still keen on these issues and maybe even others, because I like the other interviews from the other speakers more to be honest.

Anyhoo, have a great one! I'm off to try and finish Borderlands 1 and grind my way through WoW. See you!T