People bring DK for Grip and amasing damage, rogues for smoke bomb/stunlock, mages/locks/spriest for great AoE damage and control, boomkins for dot cleave, hunters for reliable control and good burst, etc.

If someone think HoP/HoS/HoF/Devotion is really important, they just bring Holy, there's no reason to take a Ret other than want a 80% DPS and 10% healer. Not interesting for rated PVP. There's no "It's OK, Ret is here, nobody will die - his utility will keep everyone alive" nor "Here comes the Ret (not bursted) now we gonna make some pressure" or "Ret is comming to peel you out of trouble" or "Ret's here, let's chain CC someone".

So, Ret bring a lot of good things nobody want. They're just not good enough.

On blue answers we had "Ret heals are down for about 20%, is that really the reason why nobody wants Ret anymore?"

My answer is: weak heals are about 30% of the problem. Nobody wanted Ret for Rated PVP in Cata too. Nobody have been wanting Ret for a LONG time.

And don't come talking that not enough people want to play Ret or nobody can play good enough. Thats a LAZY LIE. It's the same as Enhancement: most people already know that is a under performing class and then AVOID IT. Some people insist but then the RESULTS SHOW and then just reroll or like me, get to the foruns to complain. Or just leave the game.

Fact is there's 30 other DPS spec player for every 1 Ret.

Fact is there IS NO WAY a Ret can pug an RBG and arena teams are only with friends.

Fact is that I bet my HAND, I CUT OF MY HAND RIGHT NOW if you ever seen an "LF Ret Pala for Arena/RBG" ANYWERE for over a YEAR. While you can see it for almost every DPS spec exepct for Enh. People take almost any DK just for being DK and a Ret must be well recomended, geared, etc, etc so people take it for pity.

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So how is Ret now?

Mobility: I think it's OK and I se nobody complaining.

Single SUSTAINED DPS: I think it's OK too - just take Divine Purpose if you want more sustained. Maybe rework it to be more reliable, less random and there: sustained DPS.

Utility: LOT's of utility that still doesn't help. We have it, but it does NOT make us desirable/usefull enough.

Burst: OK here too.

AoE DPS: Some small changes can get this better. Make Hammer of the Righeous don't need a target and give a nice Seal of Righeous buff and it's fine.

CC: NOT OK. We need CC/Peel - I'll get to that.

Survivability: Not OK too. Out of bubble we're sitting ducks.

So we need:

1) Usefull/Desirable Utility (something better than Sacrifice/BoP/Freedom and off heals)

2) CC for peels at LEAST.

3) Survivability.

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1 - Utility

What we have? HoP, HoS, HoF, Devotion and some off heals. Why they're NOT ENOUGH?

- HoP makes melee stop DPS. - HoP only protect from physical.- HoP is easily dispelable.- HoS is easily dispelable.- Devotion WAY long CD.- I think off heals will be OK after the ~25% heal PVP Power fix.

Most important: all that Holy bring. Why bring a Ret if it's not exclusive and not that amasing?

2 - CC

This goes with utility. I can BoP/HoP someone and if it'll just stop physical damage and if it's melee will not be able do deal damage. But a SPriest can just get close and Area FEAR and get ~6 secs PEEL takes off the pressure and on given situation is WAAAAY better than BoP. And 30s CD not 5 min. CC IS UTILITY - CC is DEFENSIVE and CC is OFENSIVE.

Have you not realised that the more CC the more desirable a class/spec is? Rogue, Mages, Lock, Spriest. DK make up with grip/damage for RBGs and that's it. This is a Enhance/Elemental problem too.

One CC can open up the time/space for:

- Take pressure of = BoP/Sacrifice- Give time to heal

So a 1 min CC work almost as good as our 2 best utilities.

AND EVEN MORE:

- CC can give the time needed to cap a node on RBGs- CC can hold a healer to land a kill

So our Utility is only defensive, weak and shared with Holy. And CC is more reliable, lower CD, plus usefull for RBGs and great ofensive.

-> Long story short: we need more CC or we need to kinda bubble every one every minute absorving 100% damage. More or OP defensive group Utility will not be interesting or fun so -> we need another CC <-.

An into that: INSTANT. We have NO TIME TO CAST. We stop to cast: the pushback from damage double/triple the casting time. We get interrupted we're as good as dead. We are MELEE - if we stop to cast we stop hitting, we lose the range, we get instant CC'd to interrupt our cast. Since we are MELEE (REMEMBER THIS PART) we are in the MIDLE OF THE BATTLEFIELD not as Holy that can LoS and show up to cast a CC, if we start casting, everyone will see it, and everyone will be able to do something about it. Blizzard just took a CC from Ret and gave it to Holy as if Holy was weak and not desirable and Ret instant 1 min Repentance was OP.

Just make the math with the Amount/CD/Duration/Area/Breakable CCs that every class/spec have as baseline and talented and compare to Ret. If I get into this here I'll end up making a HUGE post. Don't make me. If needed, I WILL. So just acept that Ret need at LEAST one more not easily breakable instant maybe area CC, that HOLY WON'T HAVE with a decent 1 min CD. Or 2 CCs with 2 min CD, maybe one breakable and one not. The fact is that it IS NEEDED and Ret won't be desirable on ANY RATED PVP until it gets it.

Ret utility DOES NOT make up for the lack of CC/Peel.

3) Survivability

As it's designed our survivability goes with: Divine Shield, Divine Protection and heals. Bubble is overrated FIVE MINUTE CD that our survivability revolves arround. Divine protection is way weaker than every other classes version and our heals won't be OK even with the ~25% PVP Power fix.

Here is the thing:

We sacrifice DAMAGE to heal with WoGs and we sacrifice about 70k damage TV to make 45k healing full malevolent (55k after buff/fix) WoG that can be done if we get to hit someone 3 times - it takes us 4 GCDs not CC'd to TRADE 70k damage for a 50k heal. That's how Ret trade damage for survival and if we don't hit because of any CC, it afects not only our damage, but our already slow way of healing.

And Warriors heal 10k/sec just for being under 35% life - plus get some rage when CC'd with Second Wind.

Dark Regeneration heals for 120k, increases healing over 12 secs with a 2 min CD at the cost of ONE GCD. Sacrificial Pact absorvs more than a Spirit Shell with a 1 min CD - than lock can fear and res the pet.

We can self heal 60k (will be 75k) in 30 secs with 2 FoL SH (Selfless Healer) giving that we hit the 6 Judges needed in this time. If we get CC'd or can't hit we will take longer to heal that.

EF don't stack. We have a HoT to be like a Second Wind on ourselves, but if we need to WoG again with the HoT up, we waste it.

OK, SH can heal now (full Malevolent) 30k (37k after fix/buff) instant on myself, 60k (75k) on a ally, and maybe crit for 120k (150k) on a ally. The way it scales may make it OP, but my point here is that Rets can heal other OK (since it's not that fast/easy to stack SH x3 and crit) but at the cost of our survivability.

So anyone looks and a RET IS HEALING FOR 150k INSTANT! WTF OP! But outside of bubble we're dead meat.

In Cata we had it better because our WoG healed for MUCH MORE even with a 10s CD. If you make it back as it was, It'll be better: 10 sec CD to a heal that it's WORTH it. Not so many GCD spend for a weak heal.

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OK, too long already. Let's get to the ideas and WHY it's needed.

First let me explain: pic a combination of it, some are MUST and some are just ideas. This is the direction to solve the problem that makes Ret not OK for PVP. And most important: this is RET ONLY.

BLIZZARD MUST STOP BALANCING RET ARROUND HOLY.

Look at Shadow Priests for instance: They have a 45s CD Silence, a 45s CD Disarm/Horror and 2 min Dispersion that works like a Ret bubble + freedon that can be used holding orbs and flags. And don't say that Spriests can't self heal while dispersed - Ret self heal for almost nothing on 8 secs and bubble is on 5 min CD. Right now Dispersion is WAY better than Divine Shield, trust me.

The thing is that Shadow has it own thing. Own better survivability, own better CC and utility to compensate the lack of self heals/survivability that only healers have. Nerf or buff Pain Supression and healers heals and Shadow is OK. Blizzard have to look at that and fix it for Ret NOW.

1) Utility

- Ret Hand of Protection don't stop the target from DPSing- Bring back Glyph of Hand of Protection as MAGIC (MUST DO)- Ret Hand of Sacrifice must NOT BE dispelable from Ret (MUST)- Ret Hand of Sacrifice makes 50% of the damage taken be SHARED between Ret and target (so this is a defensive CD too)- Ret Devotion Aura on 2 min CD- There's some ideas for Ret only auras that gives Mastery and Haste besides Devotion, that share a 2 min CD from Guyviroth I think it's a great idea.

Look on those things for Shaman DPS too. Remember that CC brings Utility, Defense and Ofense to the game.

It stops enemies from hiting alies, yourself, from healing themselves, from healing other enemies and bring EVERYTHING to RBGs. Keep people out of the cars on Silvershard, combo CC to cap a node on Arathi/Guilneas/Eye that's more than half RBGs that win/lose are defined by CC.

Only an stupid OP amount of utility like mass bubble on a 2 min CD can make up for an area not easily breakable CC that sends everyone 20yd away out of LoS on a 30 secs CD. I think it's easier just give a CC than something like that, but it's one or them. Or else there's no reason to bring Ret.

Thanks, after starting MoP late I finally got my pvp gear lvl up to being respectable and was looking around to see if anyone else was thinking the same thing I was. You cover the main problems, I would just add that Inquisition is the dumbest skill ever. It takes too long for us to build 3 holy power, usually we have to use it on a WoG instead of Inq. And the last thing pallies need is another stupid button to press. REMOVE INQUISITION. Tonight I'll go back to playing my DK just like I have the last two patches. I can do more damage and have more survivability using half the buttons.

True is sucks to track and keep Inq up all the time. But it's part of the mechanics. It's not what is keeping Ret in a bad spot for PVP.

The main reason for the post is: Ret needs a DIFERENCIAL. A signature playstyle/skill that people WANT on PVP. Like Smoke Bomb, Death Grip, Area Fear, massive damage, high dot cleave. Needs to be strong, real and Ret exclusive. Or else, people will just have to reroll Holy.

As far as i see it, they have huge flavour/utility - Bubble, HoP on others, HoF on others or self, Emancipate on self, LoH in bgs only, the list goes on and on... You even have a stun on 30 sec cd if talented, a blind as well, and a truck load of burst if timed correctly.

>< Anyone who plays their class correctly and enjoys it will outperform a number of seemingly more OP classes.

Chengzu, those are Holy abilities too. Read the topic. My point is that this helps MUCH MORE Holy than Ret/Prot.

Blizz needs to give Ret and Prot, skills that help the SPEC. As it does for Shadow Priest as I gave the example.

Bubble don't help if Ret can't heal self to a safe spot.

HoP is useless against non physical damage - so every Mage spec, SPriests, Locks and Moonkins, still do 100% damage and any magic dispel takes away too. Not to mention that if it's used on any physical DPS (own Rets can't use it as a bubble because it won't alow to generate Holy Power and our self heal... you know).

Emancipate it's there to compensate the fact that we have no Charge/Grip/Roll - Gap Closer. Does it's job fine, consumes a GCD and sucks, but there it is: needs the skill to play, use Emancipate or any ranged or heal, or whatever.

Sum up the CCs of every class, look at the CDs, how easy it breaks, area or single, duration, DRs. Paladins, Shamans and DKs have HALF as much as other classes.

You can see that Paladins and Shamans are balanced arround the HEALER part of it. Not DPS. Ret, Prot, Elemental and Enchance are the LOW ENDS of PVP. DKs are already balanced to its utility and are ALWAYS wanted on RBGs and Arenas.

Again, look at the SPriest situation: some CDs are Disc/Holy only and SOME are Shadow ONLY. Dispersion is like a Shadow Bubble on less then half CD. Have a extra CC/Disarm/Silence. There: Shadow is NOT only a Disc DPS.

By the way, I'm top rating Ret on x2 from my server, second on x3 and x5. Been playing and reading and EVERYTHING RETRIBUTION for a year now.

It's not QQ, most of what I'm talking here is FACT and last week blizz got into "OK, Ret needs some atention, but ask for buffs won't help - it need some analisys" and then I did THIS. An analisys. This is some PERSPECTIVE to SHOW that Ret needs some changes.

Start your argument about how this is a QQ when you get a Print Screen from a "LF Ret for Arena/RBG" on trade channel or you go arround puging for RBG as Ret and someone take you. Or with NUMBERS that show on top 100 or maybe 500 that has a spread out number including Ret and not 1 Ret for every 50 Frost Mage/War Arms/Demo Lock/Spriest.

When someone show as Retribution PVP people feel pity - as much as Enchancement and even Elemental lately. This is NOT a QQ.

"OK, Ret needs some atention, but ask for buffs won't help - it need some analisys"

Yeah, its a great point, but look how they take care about our feedback.

"Retune GoAK around being a 1-2 min CD imo. Make wings the big 3 min. 5 min CDs aren't fun, and hard to balance.""We'd prefer not to see the Guardian out that much. Too much visual noise. Wings is subdued by comparison."

Visual noise, really? Make some arenas with a Demon Warlock to see what is visual noise.

Kcos: meaning that we're 10% worst than the Medium PVP DPS. We Damage way less than DK and our heals/utility does not make up for it to make it balanced. So "buff" our "heals" 10% or our "damage" 10% so it gets in place.

Not even mention, Renew, I'm trying to get some hope up here, man... I'm past the point wanting to use the staple to nail my eyes or use a drill on my brain when I read that stuff.

But about GoAK, I think it's fine really. Not becouse of visual effect, but the idea is to spread CDs, so move AW to 5 mins, GoAK to 3 mins, Holy Avenger to whatever... not good.

I think it whould be fair to make AW 2 mins though - burst from most classes are. Make DP work when GENERATING Holy Power rather than spending and make it passive to fix sustained and put something else there - make Holy Avenger to guarantee to generate about 15 times 3 HP rather than 18 secs that you can be CC'd or out of range to TV and I'd RIP THE GUTS OUT WITH MY TEETH of whoever complain about Ret damage as of Sustained/Burst. With my Worgen's teeth, of course.

As far as i see it, they have huge flavour/utility - Bubble, HoP on others, HoF on others or self, Emancipate on self, LoH in bgs only, the list goes on and on... You even have a stun on 30 sec cd if talented, a blind as well, and a truck load of burst if timed correctly.

>< Anyone who plays their class correctly and enjoys it will outperform a number of seemingly more OP classes.

dude has the stats and the gear he knows what he's talking about. the only part I disagree with is not that ret need a CC its that the other classes have way to many. priest fear 20 second cooldown pally blinding light 2 minute cooldown sounds fair to me

Why is it that everyone wants class homogeneity? So what if we're different than DKs, Shamans, Warriors, etc. Our sustained is fine, our burst is through the roof, our utility is fine (selfless healer, freedom, BoPs, etc). I've never had any issues with sustained damage, just keep Inq up.

"We need more CC".

So a 30 second CD stun for 6 seconds (if you spec into it, which you should), Blinding Light, and a slow. We don't need anymore CC, this game isn't based around 1v1, learn to handle situations with other classes such as in 3s and help support your group that way, by BoPing / Freedoming as you should and stunning.

However, i do agree with your Utility suggestions (besides the buff to BoP). Perhaps let Freedom be undispellable?