Complete BS. Jive is the euro name for Jitterbug which came before traditional swing. ECS/WCS came from necessity as the music slowed; the predecessor can not be a dumbed down version of the successor.

TD, one thing I'm trying to sort out. Articles that I've read indicate that Lindy is the progenitor of all of the swing dances, and that it arose in the mid-1930s in New York. (In fact, I've seen the name of the man who is credited with inventing it, although I don't recall it now.) Jitterbug and some other styles developed from Lindy, and then Jive arose as a fusion of American and British styles during WWII. It's my understanding that ECS and WCS are both of post-war origins. Does all this line up with your knowledge?

Complete BS. Jive is the euro name for Jitterbug which came before traditional swing. ECS/WCS came from necessity as the music slowed; the predecessor can not be a dumbed down version of the successor.

TD, one thing I'm trying to sort out. Articles that I've read indicate that Lindy is the progenitor of all of the swing dances, and that it arose in the mid-1930s in New York. (In fact, I've seen the name of the man who is credited with inventing it, although I don't recall it now.) Jitterbug and some other styles developed from Lindy, and then Jive arose as a fusion of American and British styles during WWII. It's my understanding that ECS and WCS are both of post-war origins. Does all this line up with your knowledge?

Yes, you are basically correct. The biggest thing here is that we have to keep in mind that names and styles, and when things came into prominence, blurs greatly as they are all very subjected to the areas/regions of their developments. Also, we should keep in mind that the name 'swing' is akin to the word 'doughnuts'. There is EC, WC, Lindy, Jitterbug/Jive, Savoy, CS, PS, and Push-Whip, and more, but they are all just swing, just as there is plain, glazed, jelly, cream, frosted, lemon, chocolate, holes, and more, but they are all just doughnuts.

I believe the names that you are probably looking for are Shorty George Snowden and Frankie Manning. Frankie told me that the term jitterbug came from a beetle in Georgia. Apparently, the thing finds itself on its back a lot, and to right itself, it pops up in short rapid movements until it pops onto its feet. The southerners call it a jitterbug, and gave the name to the more bouncy style of swing that differed from the big band more swingy style. Even then, he said, people quickly began to refer to everything as jitterbug. It was very interesting to have known him.

Logged

The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.

The point of Swing dance is that essentially it should 'Swing' - that is follow the music closely and using syncopation to follow the stress in the music. West Coast Swing, Lindy, and 'Glasgow Jive' or 'double step Jive' are all musically driven.

ECS and Internatiuonal Jive, which are artificial constructs, make no attempt to follow the music and no attempt to syncopate, so can't be described as 'Swing'. However, the steps and timing of ECS and International Jive are essentially the same of those of Lindy and WCS, so its usually possible to force an ECS or Ballroom Jive dancer to dance to the music and hit the breaks - if they are leadable.

The Association's refined the Lindy/Jitterbug. They took out all the laborious parts such as the 8 count steps and made it more racially permissible for "white America," and used a Foxtrot basis for the dance, so you could shift from one to the other. This left the dance much easier to teach and master, but the real gut of swing was eliminated, making it spiritless compared with its older brothers.

Wow, now this is ambitious, your telling me that you doubt firstly a man who has more experience in the ballroom and latin than you could gain in your lifetime, and secondly after this man explains that he has personally known Frankie Manning who is considered to be one of the founding fathers of the lindy hop you still blatantly state that his information is completely false. You have some nerve mister...

Zac

Logged

Dance is poetry written for the feet, read by the heart, and destined for the soul.

Ah yes, that authoritative source, Wikipedia. Some of it looks like stuff you'd write. In particular, there is a statement that ballroom dancers think that ECS derived from foxtrot. Anyone who knows anything at all about the two dances would realize how ignorant a statement that is, even if they were completely unaware of the actual history of the two dances. And that statement is not supported by the reference attached to it; the document referred to does not mention foxtrot at all. I'm going to challenge it.

The Association's refined the Lindy/Jitterbug. They took out all the laborious parts such as the 8 count steps and made it more racially permissible for "white America," and used a Foxtrot basis for the dance, so you could shift from one to the other. This left the dance much easier to teach and master, but the real gut of swing was eliminated, making it spiritless compared with its older brothers.

I don't know; this sounds to me like pure elitism. Someone's trying to prove that he's too hip for the room. Yeah, everyone knows that white Americans can't dance. Or jump.

Maybe its time for a research fellow to enter and to ask him to shed some light on the history of the (modern) jive, no bias, no hidden motive;(Oh and please don't use Wikipedia........ or Youtube to state a claim)

JIVEBy: Don Herbison-Evans M.A., D.Phil.(oxon), Dip. Dance Ed.

This dance originated with the Negroes in the South East of U.S.A., where it had an affinity with the war dances of the Seminole Indians in Florida. One reference suggests that the Negroes copied it from the Indians (Benton, 1963, 4/17). Another suggests that the Indians copied it from the Negroes, who brought the dance from Africa (Evans, 1975, 41). The latter is more likely, as the word "Jive" is probably derived from "Jev" meaning "to talk disparagingly" in the West African Wolof language (Sadie, 1980, 9/652). The word "Jive" also has a similar meaning in Negro slang : "misleading talk, exaggerations" (Wentworth, 1975, 293), although this could have been derived from a modification of the English word "jibe" (Burchfield, 1976,426). The word has several other slang meanings : "gaudy merchandise", "marijuana", and "sexual intercourse". It is unclear whether any of these meanings predated the use of the term for the dance, and hence which is a metaphor for which (Wentworth, 1975, 293).

In the 1880's, the dance was performed competitively amongst the Negroes in the South, and the prize was frequently a cake, so the dance became known as the Cake Walk (Compton, 1963, 4/17).

It often consisted of two parts performed alternately : a solemn procession of couples, and an energetic display dance, all done in finest clothes. The associated music became known as Ragtime, possibly because the participants dressed up in their best "rags" or clothes, or possibly because the music was syncopated and "ragged" (Buckman, 1978, 160). The music and dances subsequently became popular amongst the Negroes in Chicago and New York (Javana, 1984, 34).

This exuberant dancing and music amongst the Negroes contrasted with the limited and dour dancing of the upper white classes of the U.S.A. and U.K. in the wake of Prince Albert's death in 1861 (Rust, 1969, 78). With the death of Queen Victoria in 1901, English speaking society perhaps felt more free to engage in more and energetic dancing, and a series of simple dances based on those of the Negroes become popular in white society e.g.: the Yankee Tangle, the the Mooche (Buckman, 1978, 167). Many had animal names, betraying perhaps a rural and pantomimic origin : Turkey Trot, Horse Trot, Eagle Rock, Crab Step, Buzzard Lope, Fish Walk, Camel Walk, Lame Duck, Bunny Hop, Kangaroo Hop, Grizzly Bear, and the Bunny Hug. The current Jive still has a Bunny Hug as one of the standard steps. The dances were all done to 4/4 Ragtime music, with stress on beats 2 and 4, and have syncopated rhythms. They all used the same elements: couples doing a walk, rock, swoop, bounce or sway. The closed position was considered by many to be indecent, and sometimes the lady wore "bumpers" to preclude body contact (Rust, 1969,83).

An interesting change occured around 1910, when the individual dances were brought together, and the dancers encouraged to do these in an arbitrary order. It made every male dancer into an instant choreographer. The change was described as a change of interest from steps to rhythm (Rust, 1969, 84). It coincided with the publication of Irving Berlin's "Alexander's Ragtime Band" in 1910, which rapidly became a worldwide hit.

As Ragtime evolved into Swing through the 1920's, new dances became popular. The (modern) Foxtrot was invented by Harry Fox for a stage show in New York in 1913 (Compton, 1963, 4/17). The Charleston was said to have originated in the Cape Verde Islands (Raffe, 1964, 60). It evolved into a round dance done by Negro dock workers in the port of Charleston (Rust, 1969, 89), and became popular in white society after inclusion in the stage show "Running Wild" in 1923 by James P. Johnson, which toured U.S.A. (Rust, 1969, 89). It subsequently became so popular worldwide that many sedate ballrooms put up notices saying simply "PCQ" , standing for "Please Charleston Quietly" (Rust, 1969, 89).

The Black Bottom became popular after inclusion in the stage show: George White's 'Scandals of 1926' (Sadie, 1980, 2/769). Various authors have said it originated in New York, or in Nashville, or in New Orleans, but it seems more likely that it originated in the a suburb of Detroit of the same name.

In 1926, the Savoy Ballroom opened in Harlem in New York with the famous jazz band of Fletcher Henderson. The dancers there soon combined the Foxtrot, Charleston, Black Bottom, and the various animal steps to form a new dance to fit with the jazz music. This dance soon became known as the Lindy Hop (Sadie, 1980, 11/5), after Charles Lindbergh who made the first solo non-stop transatlantic flight that year, because of the amount of time the dancers appeared to spend in the air (Javana, 1984, 34). In 1934, the dance at the Savoy in Harlem was described by Cab Calloway as "like the frenzy of jittering bugs", so it soon became known as the Jitterbug (Burchfield, 1976, II/425).

The current version called the Jive has basic steps composed of a fast syncopated chasse (side, close, side) to the left followed by another to the right (right then left for the lady) followed by a slower break back and replace forward. The hips are moved half a beat after each of the steps, and the weight is kept well forward with all steps being taken on the toes. In the chasses, by keeping the leading foot high on the ball of the foot, and the trailing foot fairly flat, an optical illusion is created called the "moonwalk", which gives dancer an attractive weightless appearance.

In its beginnings, in 1927, the dance became equated with youth (Javana, 1984, 34). Older adults disapproved of it and tried to ban it from dance halls by the rationalisation that because Jive was non-progressive, it disturbed the other dancers who were progressing anti-clockwise around the dance floor (Rust, 1969, 98).

Young adults have always been inclined to feel alienated by insecurity from parental criticism, and by inadequacy from lacks in understanding and coordination. From time to time throughout history, they have obtained emotional satisfaction by identifying with peers in a cult of dancing. Of the various responses possible to alienation such as illness, crime, rebellion and cult, a dancing cult is the most benign (Rust, 1969. 170).

As always, dance is involved in the deepest emotional responses of our personalities, and hence with the foundations of society.

The history of swing dates back to the 1920's, where the black community, while dancing to contemporary Jazz music, discovered the Charleston and the Lindy Hop.

On March 26, 1926, the Savoy Ballroom opened its doors in New York. The Savoy was an immediate success with its block-long dance floor and a raised double bandstand. Nightly dancing attracted most of the best dancers in the New York area. Stimulated by the presence of great dancers and the best black bands, music at the Savoy was largely Swinging Jazz.

One evening in 1927, following Lindbergh's flight to Paris, a local dance enthusiast named "Shorty George" Snowden was watching some of the dancing couples. A newspaper reporter asked him what dance they were doing, and it just so happened that there was a newspaper with an article about Lindbergh's flight sitting on the bench next to them. The title of the article read, "Lindy Hops The Atlantic," and George just sort of read that and said, "Lindy Hop" and the name stuck.

In the mid 1930's, a bouncy six beat variant was named the Jitterbug by the band leader Cab Calloway when he introduced a tune in 1934 entitled "Jitterbug".

With the discovery of the Lindy Hop and the Jitterbug, the communities began dancing to the contemporary Jazz and Swing music as it was evolving at the time, with Benny Goodman leading the action. Dancers soon incorporated tap and jazz steps into their dancing.

In the mid 1930's, Herbert White, head bouncer in the New York City Savoy Ballroom, formed a Lindy Hop dance troupe called Whitey's Lindy Hoppers. One of the most important members of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers was Frankie Manning. The "Hoppers" were showcased in the following films: "A Day at the Races" (1937), "Hellzapoppin" (1941), "Sugar Hill Masquerade" (1942), and "Killer Diller" (1948). (Do we remember TD's remark made earlier?)

In 1938, the Harvest Moon Ball included Lindy Hop and Jitterbug competition for the first time. It was captured on film and presented for everyone to see in the Paramount, Pathe, and Universal movie newsreels between 1938 and 1951.

In early 1938, Dean Collins arrived in Hollywood. He learned to dance the Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, Lindy and Swing in New York City and spent a lot of time in Harlem and the Savoy Ballroom. Between 1941 and 1960, Collins danced in, or helped choreograph over 100 movies which provided at least a 30 second clip of some of the best California white dancers performing Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, Lindy and Swing.

In the late 1930's and through the 1940's, the terms Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, Lindy, and Swing were used interchangeably by the news media to describe the same style of dancing taking place on the streets, in the night clubs, in contests, and in the movies.

By the end of 1936, the Lindy was sweeping the United States. As might be expected, the first reaction of most dancing teachers to the Lindy was a chilly negative. In 1936 Philip Nutl, president of the American Society of Teachers of Dancing, expressed the opinion that swing would not last beyond the winter. In 1938 Donald Grant, president of the Dance Teachers' Business Association, said that swing music "is a degenerated form of jazz, whose devotees are the unfortunate victims of economic instability." In 1942 members of the New York Society of Teachers of Dancing were told that the jitterbug (a direct descendent of the Lindy Hop), could no longer be ignored. Its "cavortings" could be refined to suit a crowded dance floor.

The dance schools such as The New York Society of Teachers and Arthur Murray, did not formally begin documenting or teaching the Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, Lindy, and Swing until the early 1940's. The ballroom dance community was more interested in teaching the foreign dances such as the Argentine Tango, Spanish Paso Doblé, Brazilian Samba, Puerto Rican Merengue, Cuban Mambo and Cha Cha, English Quickstep, Austrian Waltz, with an occasional American Fox-trot and Peabody.

In the early 1940's the Arthur Murray studios looked at what was being done on the dance floors in each city and directed their teachers to teach what was being danced in their respective cities. As a result, the Arthur Murray Studios taught different styles of undocumented Swing in each city.

In the early 1940's, Lauré Haile, as a swing dancer and competitor, documented what she saw being danced by the white community. At that time, Dean Collins was leading the action with Lenny Smith and Lou Southern in the night clubs and competitions in Southern California. Lauré Haile gave it the name of "Western Swing". She began teaching for Arthur Murray in 1945. Dean Collins taught Arthur Murray teachers in Hollywood and San Francisco in the late 1940's and early 1950's.

After the late 1940's, the soldiers and sailors returned from overseas and continued to dance in and around their military bases. Jitterbug was danced to Country-Western music in Country Western bars, and popularized in the 1980's.

As the music changed between the 1920's and 1990's, (Jazz, Swing, Bop, Rock 'n' Roll, Rhythm & Blues, Disco, Country), the Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, Lindy, and Swing evolved across the U.S. with many regional styles. The late 1940's brought forth many dances that evolved from Rhythm & Blues music: the Houston Push and Dallas whip (Texas), the Imperial Swing (St. Louis), the D.C. Hand Dancing (Washington), and the Carolina Shag (Carolinas and Norfolk) were just a few.

In 1951 Lauré Haile first published her dance notes as a syllabus, which included Western Swing for the Santa Monica Arthur Murray Dance Studio. In the 50's she presented her syllabus in workshops across the U.S. for the Arthur Murray Studios. The original Lauré Haile Arthur Murray Western Swing Syllabus has been taught by Arthur Murray studios with only minor revisions for the past 44 years.

From the mid 1940's to today, the Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, Lindy, and Swing, were stripped down and distilled by the ballroom dance studio teachers in order to adapt what they were teaching to the less nimble-footed general public who paid for dance lessons. As a result, the ballroom dance studios bred and developed a ballroom East Coast Swing and ballroom West Coast Swing.

In the late 1950's, television brought "American Bandstand", "The Buddy Dean Show" and other programs to the teenage audiences. The teenagers were rocking with Elvis Presley, Little Richard, and Chuck Berry leading the fray. In 1959, some of the California dance organizations, with Skippy Blair setting the pace, changed the name of Western Swing to West Coast Swing so it would not be confused with country and western dancing.

In the 1990's, dancers over 60 years of age still moving their Lindy Hoppin', Jitterbuggin', Swingin', and Shaggin' feet.

Swing Styles

Savoy Swing: a style of Swing popular in the New York Savoy Ballroom in the 30's and 40's originally danced to Swing music. The Savoy style of swing is a very fast, jumpy, casual-looking style of dancing

Lindy style is a smoother-looking dance.

West Coast Swing: a style of Swing emphasizing nimble feet popular in California night clubs in the 30's and 40's and voted the California State Dance in 1989.

Whip: a style of Swing popular in Houston, Texas, emphasizing moves spinning the follower between dance positions with a wave rhythm break.

Push: a style of swing popular in Dallas, Texas, emphasizing moves spinning the follower between dance positions with a rock rhythm break.

Supreme Swing: a style of Swing popular in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Imperial Swing: a style of Swing popular in St. Louis, Missouri.

Carolina Shag: a style of Swing popular in the Carolinas emphasizing the leader's nimble feet.

DC Hand Dancing: a Washington, DC synthesis of Lindy and Swing.

East Coast Swing: a 6 count style of Lindy popular in the ballroom dance school organizations.

Ballroom West Coast Swing: a style of swing popular in the ballroom dance school organizations and different from the style performed in the California night clubs and Swing dance clubs.

Country-Western Swing: a style of Jitterbug popularized during the 1980's and danced to Country and Western music.

Cajun Swing: a Louisiana Bayou style of Lindy danced to Cajun music.

Pony Swing: a Country Western style of Cajun Swing.

Jive: the International Style version of the dance is called Jive, and it is danced competitively in the US and all over the world.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 01:10:48 AM by Vagabond »

Logged

Dancing with the feet is one thing, but dancing with the heart is another.

I had no idea there were that many swing/jive styles. I suppose your idea of a dance is dictated by where you see/do it. Thus, to me swing is ballroom swing but obviously every form has its own legitimacy.

At first, there was a great distaste among ballroom dance teachers for the swing, spurring the insulting term "jitterbug" for the dance (a racial slur). ECS incorporates much of the Latin technique popularized in dances such as the Cha-Cha (as preferred by the ballroom dancers) with various figures from Foxtrot while retaining the feel of swing. In ballroom competitions, the pure Latin technique preferred in the dancing of the ECS has caused many swing dancers in observation to feel that it is not a true representation of swing dancing

From around the mid 40's to present day, the Lindy Hop, Jitterbug Lindy, and Swing, were stripped down and diluted by ballroom teachers across the country in order to adapt what they were teaching to the less nimble (and musical) public who were paying for their instruction. As a result ballroom studios all over developed a basic East Coast and West Coast Swing.

If you care to research the Swing community (and there are numerous sites available on the internet) view of ECS and Ballroom Jive, you will find they are regarded as being something different and seperate from Swing.

The central difference between ECS and Ballroom and Swing is that is a constant 6 beat with no discernable anchor while true Swing has no constant pattern.

The whole point of 'Swing' dancing is to shorten or lengthen the pattern and anchors to suit the music. Pattens will be changed and improvised so the anchors are at 6, 8, 10 or even 12 beats to suit the music.

In contrast Ballroom Jive and ECS dancers will generally completely ignore the bresks and rhythms in a piece of music in order to follow the 6 beat pattern

The difficulty is (and this has been demonstrated before) that unless you are an experienced Swing dancer you will be unlikely to see what the dancers are trying to achieve, in a sense its much the same as a non-ballroom dancer being able to see the technique involved competion ballroom dancing.

There is nothing contentious about this. It's a view that is more or less universal in the Swing community, as the briefest search of any Swing sites on the internet will tell you.

Swing itself is a 'genre' or group of dances with the emphasis on musical interpretation rather than physcial technique. In outlook it shares a common viewpoint to that of Argentine Tango, which, like Swing, is a larger group of dances and not a single dance.

Ballroom Jive and ECS are as different in style from 'Swing' as Ballroom Tango is from the Argentine Tango. In reducing both dances to a rigid codified form the Balllroom community remove the essential purpose of both of Swing and Argentine Tango, whidh is to freely improvise steps which follow the music.

This example improvised, two swing dancers from different styles, paired at random and dancing to unknown music. Their skill as dancers (Ben Morris is the Bryan Watson of Swing) is in their ability to adapt and change their steps and patterns as the music is playing.

Check the moves at 2.38, and 2.55. It's unlikely Ben Morris was familiar with the music, he's a WCS dancer not a Lindy Hopper, but if you understand the musical structure its pretty easy to see the change coming - thinking what to do and getting your partner to understand is another problem, which is what makes Ben and a Swing genius.

If you care to research the Swing community (and there are numerous sites available on the internet) view of ECS and Ballroom Jive, you will find they are regarded as being something different and seperate from Swing.

I can tell you don't have to perform scientific or social/economic research as part of your daily work, hence the wiki quotes...... again this is your opinion and I respect that, but don't belittle me when it comes to "research"....... mate!So far it looks like you try to debunk every article written on this forum by ignoring others people knowledge and quoting articles that go without references..... Most of those views are based on a personal opinion, not on historical evidence. At Wikipedia they have notice at the article mentioned stating that;

This article needs additional citations for verification.Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (September 2009).

Research is done by verifying and cross referencing sources, that ultimately allows one to come to a conclusion based on evidence.... not on just quotes.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 12:13:35 AM by Vagabond »

Logged

Dancing with the feet is one thing, but dancing with the heart is another.

As an actively evolving dance form, and one that seems to have done so in multiple places at the same time, I suppose there are real differences in the perception of its history. on any such issue - where there may be multiple valid views, the key thing is, as V says, to keep an open mind and respect others likewise.