And, I do believe that allowing Catholic Priests to marry would help with the molestation problems.

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No. Pedophiles do not molest children because they are single. That is a complete misunderstanding of that pathology.

Coming from a Protestant background into the Catholic church, I see the issue of married priests from a different perspective. The pressure on spouses and children of pastors is very damaging sometimes. And the job of a pastor/priest is very consuming often leaving inadequate time to nurture a marriage and be a good parent. In that respect, celibacy frees priests to devote their whole energy to the church and does not leave a spouse or children without adequate attention/devotion from a husband/father. At the same time, it also makes it difficult for priests to have balance and space away from their work.

It's the Jewish orthodox mothers that make me when I see a 25 year old in a wig with 5 kids and another on the way, driving a minivan.

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This made me chuckle. My daughter is getting her master's in Occupational Therapy. Probably 25% of her fellow classmates are Jewish Orthodox young women, who fit that description exactly. My daughter came home, after her first day of classes and was amazed! She couldn't believe how young they were, that they were married, had more than one or two kids, and were taking on such a difficult program!

I don't show up to mass every weekend anymore because the church is stuck in a time and belief system that I can no longer be a part of. There are still parts of Catholicism that I greatly identify with, and that has prevented me from changing religions, but unless the church changes, I won't be there. When/if the church changes, I'll take my place back in the pew. I'm not expecting that to be anytime soon.

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Yup. This! From someone who went to mass every single Saturday until I was about 20 as well as Catholic school from K - 12 and then a Catholic college. There is so much I disagree with that the Catholic church teaches and believes in that I doubt I will ever go to Catholic mass again. My husband is Lutheran and his stepfather is a Lutheran pastor and we were married in their church. If we ever had kids they won't be brought up Catholic, that's for sure.

I was not specifically speaking to pedophiles. There has been molestation in the church for centuries, nuns for example.

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Again, though, rape, molestation and other forced/non-consensual sexual behaviors are not a result of being single. Married/partnered people can engage in those behaviors just as much as single ones.

The Catholic church does not have a monopoly at all on sexual misbehavior by clergy or others in position of power. The media has under reported incidents in other denominations. This blog catalogs a number of incidents and cover-ups both Catholic and Protestant. It is mind boggling. But if you read it, you might notice that marriage is not much of an inoculation against such behavior:

But in reality I would bet a lot of practicing Catholics do use birth control. It's not like the Catholic families I know have a gazillion kids. Two is the usual number, in keeping with the national average.

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True in NA and most of Europe but what about women in the 3rd World countries?

I don't show up to mass every weekend anymore because the church is stuck in a time and belief system that I can no longer be a part of. There are still parts of Catholicism that I greatly identify with, and that has prevented me from changing religions, but unless the church changes, I won't be there. When/if the church changes, I'll take my place back in the pew. I'm not expecting that to be anytime soon.

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This, agreed. But I don't think the church will ever change. Birth control change could be so effective in poorer countries. Changing position on homosexuality. Re-focusing on helping the needy vs. Joey The Rat piping up about feminism and such.

Maybe I'm just unfair because I want the church to agree with me, and that's not how it works. But I refuse to go back while the pedophile priest scandal is dismissed by the church (in fact, didn't Ratzinger claim it was persecution at one point? ), among other things I've mentioned.

That said, I'm glad Ratzinger is stepping down. I don't hold much hope for the future of the church, but there's slight potential now...

What WOULD prompt me to really leave (and probably find the most rigid Orthodox or High Anglican church I would) would be substantial liberalization. The world does not need more relaxed standards. The last thing I want are women priests (I can't even work for secular female bosses because they're too process and emotion-oriented instead of results and rationality oriented) and idiotic kum-bay-ya-ing instead of order. The job of a Church is not to pat you on the head, give you a cookie, and tell you to do whatever feels good because if it feels good, it must be right and moral. You want that, join the Satanist church (which is NOT, I might add, about "worshiping Satan", more like hedonism as a religious calling, and I actually respect them more than most liberal Protestant denominations. At least their theology is honest.)

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Never change, danceronice. Your ridiculous take on women never fails to bring me joy.

So could someone please explain the drama around this? I don't see why this is a big deal. Seems to me a rational and fair to all decision to make. Le shrug. That Mussolini granddaughter and her "He is abandoning his flock!!" is incomprehensible to me. Or is this the press sensationalizing it on a slow Monday?

No. Pedophiles do not molest children because they are single. That is a complete misunderstanding of that pathology.

Coming from a Protestant background into the Catholic church, I see the issue of married priests from a different perspective. The pressure on spouses and children of pastors is very damaging sometimes. And the job of a pastor/priest is very consuming often leaving inadequate time to nurture a marriage and be a good parent. In that respect, celibacy frees priests to devote their whole energy to the church and does not leave a spouse or children without adequate attention/devotion from a husband/father. At the same time, it also makes it difficult for priests to have balance and space away from their work.

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Oh please--that is the lamest thing I've heard in a long time. I'll be sure to let me sister and bil (the two ordained pastors) know that they've been unable to give adequate attention to each other these past 30 years of their marriage and they've allowed their kids to suffer neglect as well. Being a pastor is a job, like any other job. There are times where there are greater demands on your time, but to say that you cannot have a family/be married and be a pastor at the same time is just ignorant.

Oh please--that is the lamest thing I've heard in a long time. I'll be sure to let me sister and bil (the two ordained pastors) know that they've been unable to give adequate attention to each other these past 30 years of their marriage and they've allowed their kids to suffer neglect as well. Being a pastor is a job, like any other job. There are times where there are greater demands on your time, but to say that you cannot have a family/be married and be a pastor at the same time is just ignorant.

What WOULD prompt me to really leave (and probably find the most rigid Orthodox or High Anglican church I would) would be substantial liberalization. The world does not need more relaxed standards. The last thing I want are women priests (I can't even work for secular female bosses because they're too process and emotion-oriented instead of results and rationality oriented) and idiotic kum-bay-ya-ing instead of order. The job of a Church is not to pat you on the head, give you a cookie, and tell you to do whatever feels good because if it feels good, it must be right and moral.

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Wow, thanks for generalizing all women as emotional and idiotic. I happen to be a very results-oriented and logical type of woman, but the world also needs people who are process oriented and in tune with emotions. And everything in between. Male and female.

But in reality I would bet a lot of practicing Catholics do use birth control. It's not like the Catholic families I know have a gazillion kids. Two is the usual number, in keeping with the national average.

Wow, thanks for generalizing all women as emotional and idiotic. I happen to be a very results-oriented and logical type of woman, but the world also needs people who are process oriented and in tune with emotions. And everything in between. Male and female.

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The "masculine" way of management - ruling by fear with an iron fist - doesn't work and results in disheartened, disgruntled employees who don't take pride in their work. They only have to do just enough not to get yelled at. There's always a balance. The best bosses, IMO, are process-oriented but don't forget that they're working with people. Doesn't matter if they're men or women.

Count me in with IceAlisa as one of those who doesn't really get what the whole drama with the Pope is. There's a first time for everything! Even if it's a "first time in 600 years."

Wow, thanks for generalizing all women as emotional and idiotic. I happen to be a very results-oriented and logical type of woman, but the world also needs people who are process oriented and in tune with emotions. And everything in between. Male and female.

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Most of my bosses have been women in my life. I've had good ones and bad ones, but I imagine I'd have had good and bad male ones as well. The upside is I've had some excellent mentors in the great female bosses I've had that my friends with predominantly male bosses haven't had. It never sits well with me when someone spouts that women aren't good in leadership roles with b.s. "evidence" to back it up. The opportunities have been so few compared to what men have had over decades.

That can be answered if you look at the access to medical care in general, no just birth control.

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Not really. There's limited access to medical care, yes. But there'a also massive lobbying on the catholic church's part against birth control measures which is doing massive harm given the prevalence of HIV infections.

Catholicism's biggest strength and why it has survived for as long as it has and become as big has it has is because of its understanding of Revelation and the strong belief that Scripture and Tradition are equal. And I'm talking about Tradition I'm talking about faith and morals. The idea that the Catholic faith is a revealed faith that has been passed down through generations. And the concept that Truth doesn't change. We may grow in our understanding but the fundamentals of truth don't.

[...] Catholics just say what has the Church traditionally taught on said subject and the answer is finished. We had our Church council discussed this and the matter is settled forevermore. [...] If people want a more "modern form of Chrisitanity, there are plenty of Protestant branches too choose from.

[...]

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I would argue that one of the reasons it has 'reached' so many people and survived so long is its interdependent relationship with colonialism. Look at how many Catholics come from colonies (former and present). Many people were forcibly converted (some of my ancestors were threatened with death), and it was often dangerous to practice any religion but Catholicism. Yet people found creative ways to do so. Look at santeria, for instance, in which orishas were made present under the guise of saints. For some, this was a way to preserve religious traditions from the period before the Middle Passage. For others, the belief systems worked hand in hand, such that the saints were understood through Yoruba (and other) traditions.

Catholicism, for all its claims to a traditional lineage, has actually been transformed by those who follow the faith. The people of the colonies for instance, have not just inherited a 'pure' form of Catholicism, rather, they have actively shaped the religion and how it is practiced today. In some places, the faith is negotiated in ways that speak to a legacy of slavery and colonialism and all that entails. There are priests and nuns who do not actively reproduce the Vatican's gender and sexuality ideologies, instead passing out prophylactics (Benedict didn't like that too much), acknowledging the existence of people who fall outside a two-sex system, etc.. I identify as Catholic but do not take direction from the Vatican. I attended World Youth Day some years ago in Germany to meet up with other Catholics involved in queer rights, feminist, and anti-racist movements, and I did encounter such people. Just because the Vatican isn't backing something, doesn't mean it doesn't have an important role in the everyday lives of many Catholics.

I would argue that the Vatican's stance on sexuality and gender, for instance, is no less divisive than breaks from 'tradition'.

Not really. There's limited access to medical care, yes. But there'a also massive lobbying on the catholic church's part against birth control measures which is doing massive harm given the prevalence of HIV infections.

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But this is also the case in non-Catholic countries, in the sense that general access to health care is limited, including access to birth control. Other religions restrict birth control as well so when they are in power, things aren't much different. Certainly, the Catholic Church plays a large role in limiting access to birth control and abortion in many predominantly Catholic developing countries. IIRC, there was a case of death from ectopic pregnancy in a central American country where all abortion is banned.

Not really. There's limited access to medical care, yes. But there'a also massive lobbying on the catholic church's part against birth control measures which is doing massive harm given the prevalence of HIV infections.

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absolutely. especially when you look at the role the Catholic Church plays in foreign aid. In some cases, they provide 25% of a country's aid, and as such, have a lot of influence over policies around prophylactics. They can prevent government funding of social programs that do not meet their standards (ie. comply with the Vatican's teachings). Some groups of bishops involved with
aid have previously denied and continue to deny funding to programs that distribute condoms, birth control and/or info about abortions.

But this is also the case in non-Catholic countries, in the sense that general access to health care is limited, including access to birth control. Other religions restrict birth control as well so when they are in power, things aren't much different. Certainly, the Catholic Church plays a large role in limiting access to birth control and abortion in many predominantly Catholic developing countries. IIRC, there was a case of death from ectopic pregnancy in a central American country where all abortion is banned.

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I read that there was a death in Ireland that could have been prevented if abortion had been legal: