I'm going to disagree with Gant a little here and note that if someone needs a lot of protein to get things rolling, my opinion is they're likely not getting enough food to begin with.

What's there to disagree with? I said "a lot of people--myself included." Let's put the white papers down and talk real people. My experience comes from several gaining cycles in my lifetime, including one a year ago where I moved from 195 to 230 in a few months. I'm also including the guys I train with who are already 200+ and need to move up. When you're starting with big, strong guys and try to make them bigger or stronger, adding 10-20g protein per day won't cut it. Adding 50-70 grams a day is more helpful (that's only adding 1/2 - 2/3 pounds of meat).

I still think casein is way overrated. If you're trying to gain and you want to some timed-release crap, drink whey post workout, eat .75 lb. chicken breast 30 minutes after that, and eat a 1/2 pound burger and a couple slices of meat lover's pizza an hour or two after that.

__________________
"It should be more like birthday party than physics class." | Log | 70's Big

I've noticed for a long while or got into a pattern of that I would take my whey and/or snack post workout (perhaps a bit of fruit, fishoil) and then end up hungry 45m-1h later and eat a general meal. My friend has the same habit by coincidence and I've heard a lot of people do this as well.

Really the PWO would just get me back to the point I could start coaching my classes but I would find I would need to eat something ASAP after about an hour.

What's there to disagree with? I said "a lot of people--myself included." Let's put the white papers down and talk real people. My experience comes from several gaining cycles in my lifetime, including one a year ago where I moved from 195 to 230 in a few months. I'm also including the guys I train with who are already 200+ and need to move up. When you're starting with big, strong guys and try to make them bigger or stronger, adding 10-20g protein per day won't cut it. Adding 50-70 grams a day is more helpful (that's only adding 1/2 - 2/3 pounds of meat).

I still think casein is way overrated. If you're trying to gain and you want to some timed-release crap, drink whey post workout, eat .75 lb. chicken breast 30 minutes after that, and eat a 1/2 pound burger and a couple slices of meat lover's pizza an hour or two after that.

Fair enough, I think in hindsight I was more or less picking on semantics.

I have a tendency to get caught in the nuances of food/nutrition, primarily because I enjoy it.

__________________

Quote:

And if you don't think kettleball squat cleans are difficult, I say, step up to the med-ball

I still think casein is way overrated. If you're trying to gain and you want to some timed-release crap, drink whey post workout, eat .75 lb. chicken breast 30 minutes after that, and eat a 1/2 pound burger and a couple slices of meat lover's pizza an hour or two after that.

What's there to disagree with? I said "a lot of people--myself included." Let's put the white papers down and talk real people. My experience comes from several gaining cycles in my lifetime, including one a year ago where I moved from 195 to 230 in a few months. I'm also including the guys I train with who are already 200+ and need to move up. When you're starting with big, strong guys and try to make them bigger or stronger, adding 10-20g protein per day won't cut it. Adding 50-70 grams a day is more helpful (that's only adding 1/2 - 2/3 pounds of meat).

I still think casein is way overrated. If you're trying to gain and you want to some timed-release crap, drink whey post workout, eat .75 lb. chicken breast 30 minutes after that, and eat a 1/2 pound burger and a couple slices of meat lover's pizza an hour or two after that.

I think you're missing the point Derek and I are trying to make here. Sure adding 1/2 - 2/3 lbs of meat to a eucaloric diet will result in weight gain, to deny that would be stupid. However as protein in excess of 1.8-2g/kg/d is oxidized to provide energy all that additional meat is doing really is providing the extra calories required for growth. In other words if your diet already provided sufficent protein you'd get exactly the same results, at least in terms of weight gained, if you met your increased caloric needs with Twinkies or table sugar.

I think you're missing the point Derek and I are trying to make here. Sure adding 1/2 - 2/3 lbs of meat to a eucaloric diet will result in weight gain, to deny that would be stupid. However as protein in excess of 1.8-2g/kg/d is oxidized to provide energy all that additional meat is doing really is providing the extra calories required for growth. In other words if your diet already provided sufficent protein you'd get exactly the same results, at least in terms of weight gained, if you met your increased caloric needs with Twinkies or table sugar.

If someone ate the equivalent of 400 calories of sugar rather than 400 calories chicken....assuming that they already their protein needs for the day in your opinion...they would get the same results?

__________________
"And for crying out loud. Don't go into the pain cave. I can't stress this enough. Your Totem Animal won't be in there to help you. You'll be on your own. The Pain Cave is for cowards.
Pain is your companion, don't go hide from it."
-Kelly Starrett

I think you're missing the point Derek and I are trying to make here. Sure adding 1/2 - 2/3 lbs of meat to a eucaloric diet will result in weight gain, to deny that would be stupid. However as protein in excess of 1.8-2g/kg/d is oxidized to provide energy all that additional meat is doing really is providing the extra calories required for growth. In other words if your diet already provided sufficent protein you'd get exactly the same results, at least in terms of weight gained, if you met your increased caloric needs with Twinkies or table sugar.

I think you and I are on more common ground that I had previously realized.

Ideas on enough protein may be a little different, but I just realized that 2g/kg/d is damn near to 1g/lb/day.

I would still suggest people aim for a little more protein, cause they'll likely end up lower than their goal. Track carbs as necessary. Shoot for less fat, as passive over-consumption is a legit issue, and actual fat needs are quite low with the exception of n-3 intake. It's not hard to get a substantial amount of fat in the diet from protein sources alone.

__________________

Quote:

And if you don't think kettleball squat cleans are difficult, I say, step up to the med-ball