It's known under its official, very science-y, name Gliese 581 g and under its unofficial, very space opera-y, name Zarmina.

Even though sources of popular scientific background described this planet as a "second Earth", this description is quite misleading. This celestial body might be the most earth-like observed, but its conditions are far from those of cozy ol' Earth.

It's 20 to 50% bigger than Earth, meaning you would weigh 2 to 3 times as much as on Earth and - most importantly - it's tidally locked, meaning one side constantly points to its sun (very hot there), whereas the other points to interstellar space (very cold there). Temperatures in the terminator (the area between the day and the night side) might be tolerable for humans near the equator (but still range from 160 to -20°F in the rest of the terminator) and coupled with the huge planetary mass there might be a thick enough atmosphere to provide liquid water, highly important for life as we know it.

But yeah, better don't count on aliens there. Even if life had emerged there, given the extreme conditions it would probably be greenish sludge. Not that we could visit Zarmina and ascertain it beyond doubt, since even the fastest objects ever built by humanity (the Pioneer and Voyager probes) would take some million years to reach the Gliese 581 system.

So yeah.

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Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:26 pm

Sleet

Bringing Foxy Back

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 amPosts: 16047Location: Nephelokokkygia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

The gravity might be too strong for humans, but not necessarily all life, and there is a still a band of perpetual twilight that would be livable. Of course, odds are still greatly against life there, but the rotation and size aren't really that big against it.

Yeah. In addition, it is probably lots of lightyears away, which means we see what it looked lots of years ago.

Edit: Oh, I have overread that it is only 20 lightyears away. Sorry >.>

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Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:26 am

Sleet

Bringing Foxy Back

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 amPosts: 16047Location: Nephelokokkygia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

20 lightyears is a long way though. Humans will probably never go there. If we just want to explore, we have 7 planets (and their moons) and several other solar bodies near us that could use human visitors. If we want to colonize something, we have Mars, Venus and the moon.

But perhaps some day we can send a probe there. It'll be tough, but it's not unrealistic.

Settling on Mars or definitely Venus would be so hard, by the time it's doable it's probably also doable to go to this planet.

Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:47 am

Sleet

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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 amPosts: 16047Location: Nephelokokkygia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

With humans? I really doubt that. Colonies within the solar system are going to be much easier than traveling 20 light years. I think it's been demonstrated that with unlimited funds and enough time we could probably colonize Mars with current technology, so we just need to wait for technology to catch up. Venus would be a bit trickier, but I've heard that it's actually more livable than Mars for humans. The only issue there is that to reach the livable part, we'd need to build floating colonies that can withstand sulfuric acid storms, which is obviously trickier than building a colony on Mars, which would basically just need to be like a colony on Earth, only airtight and with easy access to centrifuges. Unless we want to get to terraforming, which is a lot trickier and further away from hard science than regular colonies. I'd still put that as easier to do than to get humans to Gliese 581g.

What is really important about this bunch of discoveries, is that only 15 YEARS have passed since we were convinced we couldn't find another planet outside our solar system, and the bonanza is growing! Finding terrestrial planet is the next most important step toward the answer to Man's oldest question since our ancestors raised their eyes up those bright dots in the sky and asked who was out there.Gliese 581g may be not paradise, but it may host life. Only the chance is a conquest in itself!

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Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:36 am

Psykeout

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:15 pmPosts: 4579Images: 1

Re: Second Earth discovered!

Sleet wrote:

20 lightyears is a long way though. Humans will probably never go there. If we just want to explore, we have 7 planets (and their moons) and several other solar bodies near us that could use human visitors. If we want to colonize something, we have Mars, Venus and the moon.

But perhaps some day we can send a probe there. It'll be tough, but it's not unrealistic.

im nearly certain i saw this a few years ago. but since obviously did't, does anybody have any idea what it is i saw?

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Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:57 am

Liam

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:25 pmPosts: 1583Location: BMW-topia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

Using current methods of propulsion a trip to Zarmina would take about 180,000 years and antimatter-based propulsion systems are impracticable, but progress in the efficiency of fusion systems might enable ramscoops to cut travel time to non-geological timeframes.

Senator_Sunburst wrote:

It's surface gravity is actually 1.1 to 1.7 of earth's, making it perfectly liveable for us.

Found an informative source, you're right. Zarmina might not only be inhabitable, but also quite hospitable.

Sleet wrote:

If we want to colonize something, we have Mars, Venus and the moon.

True, the moon and Mars are good candidates for building colonies, since both possess deposits of ice eliminating the need of importing it from Earth. They would be an assemblage of interconnected pressurized containers and we're good at building those. Even terraforming of Mars isn't that farfetched, with a surface gravity of 0.38 times of Earth's an atmosphere could be hold. Concepts of using robotic probes to divert asteroids containing ice that would burn up in Mars' atmosphere, thus enriching it with water and sending resilient algae via unmanned vehicles to jumpstart a self-perpetuating greenhouse effect are basically feasible with current or near-future technology. The big obstacles are money and interest, though.

Venus with a SG of 0.904 g is more earth-like, but the atmosphere is incredibly dense and 460°C hot, what makes building artificial structures almost impossibly hard.

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Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:33 am

Sleet

Bringing Foxy Back

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 amPosts: 16047Location: Nephelokokkygia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

Venus is actually fairly cool (by our standards) if you are high enough in the atmosphere, and because of the density of the atmosphere, something filled with the equivalent of Earth's atmosphere would float like helium does here. Hence why a floating colony is theoretically possible. The surface of Venus, on the other hand is almost impossible to send even machines to without significant terraforming. That project would be much less realistic than terraforming Mars.

With humans? I really doubt that. Colonies within the solar system are going to be much easier than traveling 20 light years. I think it's been demonstrated that with unlimited funds and enough time we could probably colonize Mars with current technology, so we just need to wait for technology to catch up. Venus would be a bit trickier, but I've heard that it's actually more livable than Mars for humans. The only issue there is that to reach the livable part, we'd need to build floating colonies that can withstand sulfuric acid storms, which is obviously trickier than building a colony on Mars, which would basically just need to be like a colony on Earth, only airtight and with easy access to centrifuges. Unless we want to get to terraforming, which is a lot trickier and further away from hard science than regular colonies. I'd still put that as easier to do than to get humans to Gliese 581g.

Ah, you see, I was thinking about terraforming.

Simple colonies like what you mean are relatively easy, but I don't really see the point of them past scientific research. To seriously consider colonizing Mars or Venus like that, why would we bother when we still have Antarctica and the ocean right here to colonize?

And if we are to consider a world where we've already colonized these places, well who knows what technology is like then?

Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:52 pm

Sleet

Bringing Foxy Back

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 amPosts: 16047Location: Nephelokokkygia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

Well in that case, Venus would be pretty tough. In that case, it really depends on how different technologies develop to see whether it'd be easier to fully live on Venus or Gliese 381g. It depends if our space travel develops faster than our terraforming.

i forget what it called but there's a new way of transportation for space travel that we're trying what happens is it starts of real slow and slowly get faster and faster and... faster

What if there is an obstacle? I know it is unlikely, because we would have to have a straight line of vision to see the planet, but if there was a thing that had moved there within twenty years, like an asteroid, then we would probably be moving so astronomically fast that we would hit it.

Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:28 am

Sleet

Bringing Foxy Back

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 amPosts: 16047Location: Nephelokokkygia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

There is very little stuff in "empty" space. The odds of hitting something of that size are pretty darn low.

A deep space ship would have high-range detectors to warn the crew in advance, so that they're able to steer the ship to an evasion trajectory. Of course, depending on how fast a ship is it needs appropriate shielding, since even interstellar dust particles hit like cannon fussilades by relativistic (near-lightspeed) velocities. Proposed methods of shielding include compacted layers of cometary ice.

Deceleration is achieved by flipping the ship over with its maneuver jets and using the main engine for counter-thrust.

_________________"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

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Re: Second Earth discovered!

Or have a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket within a rocket, etc. and hope that the innermost one doesn't blow up...

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Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:13 pm

p33wii

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:06 amPosts: 189

Re: Second Earth discovered!

Liam wrote:

A deep space ship would have high-range detectors to warn the crew in advance, so that they're able to steer the ship to an evasion trajectory. Of course, depending on how fast a ship is it needs appropriate shielding, since even interstellar dust particles hit like cannon fussilades by relativistic (near-lightspeed) velocities. Proposed methods of shielding include compacted layers of cometary ice.

Deceleration is achieved by flipping the ship over with its maneuver jets and using the main engine for counter-thrust.

Gotcha. This just reminded me of a story I read somewhere of a chip of paint in space moving quickly enough in orbit that it could crack some really hard substance, darned memory. I only glanced at it and I can't find it again, so it might have been one of my weird memories, but I do think I did read it.

Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:19 pm

Sleet

Bringing Foxy Back

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 amPosts: 16047Location: Nephelokokkygia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

The kinetic energy of an object is equal to half the mass multiplied by its velocity squared*, so no matter how small the mass is, anything can deliver enough energy if it's moving fast enough. On Earth, however, drag is so strong that a paint chip wouldn't be able to reach any significant speed, and if it were somehow forced to, it would burn up from Grape and Peanut's love the air friction. That's why it has to be in space, because there's no air there and thus no drag.

*This is all divided by the square root of one minus the ratio of the squares of the object's velocity to light's velocity if you're going near the speed of light, but when the object is nowhere near that speed (as pretty much anything on Earth is), this term is almost equal to 1 so we ignore it.

I understand that it is possible, but it could be made up, I don't know, like how would one monitor a chip of paint in orbit? And why? But also, how big would a rocket/ space ship have to be to contain everything that the humans(for colonization) would need?

Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:04 pm

Sleet

Bringing Foxy Back

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 amPosts: 16047Location: Nephelokokkygia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

The paint chip thing is just theoretical. It would never actually work.

As for the colony, it's not that hard. We don't really need that much, and space ships can get pretty big.

I think it would be totally insane to colonise an Earth-like planet so far from Earth, we should instead concentrate on colonising Mars and attempt to terriform the planet. That way we can colonise planets like Mars and Earth-like planets rather than trying to exclusively find Earth-like planets.

Add: And how often are we really going to find Earth-like planets within our reach, it would be rare. On a final note, we need to do a lot of work on developing advanced techology like; prepulsion technology, long lasting life support systems, energy capabilities and supply, robotics and construction methods in hostile (alien) environment, agriculture and food processing capabilities, sleeping methods and long lasting isolation theropy treatments, medical treatments and equipment, supply and waste management capabilities, and many more things needed to build and support an intergalactic civilisation as well as support star ships and their crews.

Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:09 pm

Spargo

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:47 pmPosts: 416Location: Underground

Re: Second Earth discovered!

The first theoretical warp drive was developed by a mexican physicist, the biggest flaw is that it needs one of the drives to make a path for the drive to actually work, I'll find the wikipedia link if anyone wanted. (Alcubierre Drive)

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Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:44 pm

exranio

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:44 amPosts: 1140

Re: Second Earth discovered!

Couldn't humans get there through a multi generational jounry.If we send some people and some animals on a big ship and sned it to the planets coordinates then the people could breed and eat the animals. The people who get on the ship will never reach the planet instead they would have children who would have children and so one. Until one of there descendants eventually arrive on the planet.I'm just wondering how to feed the animals maintaining a garden on a ship cannot be easy.And there is the water thing.

We are probably already capable of indefinitely sustaining a space colony as long as we can either find a way to gather resources or store/recycle enough for a journey. The only issue is the cost, which is not justified yet. The transportation is the hard part. We probably could get a colony there, but it'd be difficult and expensive, so it's not really a priority right now. There are smaller feats we still have to achieve.

Plus Earth will become too over populated to support itself so we would rely on resources being shipped to Earth from our colonies, that is the real reason why we would establish colonies after all.

I wonder if those colonies would attempt to gain their independence from Earth?

Anyway, why go to the "New Earth" planet when we can colonise those in our solar system; Mars for farming and to be terriformed to be brought to Earth standards (Mars would hold a vast population like Earth), Murcury and Venus for mining, Neptune for water and possibly fishing (it could happen), Saturn and Jupiter for fuel, the moon would be a massive ship construction facility.

Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:29 pm

Sleet

Bringing Foxy Back

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 amPosts: 16047Location: Nephelokokkygia

Re: Second Earth discovered!

MilesKingford wrote:

Plus Earth will become too over populated to support itself so we would rely on resources being shipped to Earth from our colonies, that is the real reason why we would establish colonies after all.

I wonder if those colonies would attempt to gain their independence from Earth?

Anyway, why go to the "New Earth" planet when we can colonise those in our solar system; Mars for farming and to be terriformed to be brought to Earth standards (Mars would hold a vast population like Earth), Murcury and Venus for mining, Neptune for water and possibly fishing (it could happen), Saturn and Jupiter for fuel, the moon would be a massive ship construction facility.

Earth is already too populated to support itself.

It would be much more efficient for each planet to be generally self-sustained. It's expensive to specialize and transport an entire planet's worth of one resource. We have to terraform those planets to get anyone to live on them in decent amounts anyway. We might as well let people have everything they need on their planet. Of course, some things like minerals will simply be impossible on some planets and will need to be transported, but more biological things like food should be grown everywhere.

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