Crypto-permie homesteaders on Nat Geo TV show "Live Free Or Die"

There's a new-to-me (just started its second season) show on the National Geographic Channel called Live Free Or Die. It has my attention because, without using the word "permaculture", it features a couple who are building a permaculture homestead on 1.5 acres in South Carolina. The episode guide that I first noticed mentioned making sycamore syrup, and in the two episodes I've viewed so far, Tony And Amelia have built a temporary rocket stove for sugaring, made their syrup, and have put the finishing touches on a small rocket mass heater in their cabin (including going under the cabin to shore it up with a telephone pole after the floor began to sag). What's more, Tony has talked about his ambition to grow a food forest. I can't believe they haven't used the word permaculture to the producers -- they must have -- but at least so far, I haven't seen it.

Fair warning, though, there are at least three other people featured on the show -- an aging Georgia trapper and swamp rat, a Colorado mountain-man primitive blacksmith who is the world's worst muleskinner, and a dude called "Thorn" who showed us how to build a coracle (skin boat) and then (presumably to please the producers) paddled it so far down a rapidly-flowing river that there's no hope he'll ever get it back upstream again without a pickup truck. They are all back-to-the-landers of one kind or another, and the show focuses on showing us them practicing skills for homesteading and/or primitive living, but the overall permie interest may be low. Like most such shows it's fairly foolish, jumps around too much, has heavy-handed narration that tries to inject drama into fundamentally undramatic living, and features people doing stuff that is obviously "showing off for the camera" more than the actual reality of their life. Some of the editing is implausible, too; there was a storyline about cold baby rabbits wrapped around the mass heater project, and they made it appear that the project went from mixing morter for the bricks in the mass bench all the way through to a fired-up warm room in a single day, even after taking time out to go salvage a telephone pole and shore up their cabin.

So I'm not really recommending the show, just calling it out because it has people doing permaculture in it, plus a lot of stuff that will be interesting to homesteaders, primitive-living enthusiasts, and back-to-the-landers.

I went and explored the website for the show, and found Tony's bio. The last sentance is, "A passionate agriculturalist, he aims to create an orchard filled with multi-use trees, like tea, hazelnut, and chestnut." (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/live-free-or-die/galleries/meet-the-primitives/at/meet-tony-2086227/) I have a feeling he told that that he was a permaculturist who was making a food forest, but for some reason National Geographic did not want those terms in their show. The question is, why? Did they not want the focus to be drawn from "rewilding" to permaculture? Did they think people wouldn't recognize the term? They're an education channel, they should be able to introduce and explain the term. So, what's stopping them?

Yeah, agriculturist is do far from what he is and what he's doing. You don't do agriculture on 1.5 acres. He seems like a smart guy, or at least like he does his research. I think it's unlikely he'd describe himself like that.

Hi, I'm looking for land in nj or nearby that's not too close to sea level. Excludes almost everything south of rt 70. 2 acres and up. If you know if anything please send me pm. Thanks

Stu Horton wrote:My daughter and I love the show. Mostly for Tony and Amelia. Thorn's pretty good too.

In an episode I watched recently (they aren't in order on my DVR and I'm not worrying about it) Thorn also made some noise about planting a "food forest". However most of the effort we saw involved him trying to cut down the tallest trees in his forest with a herring (he does everything the hardest possible way) to open up some sun for new plantings.

I, too, have come to the conclusion that the show's producers are deliberately avoiding the word "permaculture", for whatever reason.

Thorn does do things the hard way but I think that's what my daughter and I like about his segment. Seeing someone attempt to do things like that is impressive even if he fails. I would never attempt to live like he does unless I had no choice.

Tony and Amelia on the other hand are somewhat inspirational. Makes me wish for a show that was all permies.

Hi, I'm looking for land in nj or nearby that's not too close to sea level. Excludes almost everything south of rt 70. 2 acres and up. If you know if anything please send me pm. Thanks

It could be that these folks do not yet have their PDC. It could be that, like me, they have been doing permacultural/homesteading/back to the land research for years and have gleaned enough information to give it a go without the official courses. As such, National Geographic is keeping out of legal complications with Permaculture by not using the term, since only those having taken the course can use the term. Just a guess.

Roberto pokachinni wrote:It could be that these folks do not yet have their PDC. It could be that, like me, they have been doing permacultural/homesteading/back to the land research for years and have gleaned enough information to give it a go without the official courses. As such, National Geographic is keeping out of legal complications with Permaculture by not using the term, since only those having taken the course can use the term. Just a guess.

It has been my impression that persons without a PDC are not supposed to teach permaculture for money or sell permaculture design services. I would find it startling if I should learn that there exists any enforceable legal principal (or even any serious legal contention) that people may not use the word permaculture to describe what they are doing, whether or not they have taken a course and whether or not they appear on cable television.

You sound as though you know, Dan, and so I have nothing further to say in that direction. As I did say, it was just a guess. I can not see what National Geographic would have to gain by not including the word permaculture in such a program. In fact, it may very well behoove us to bring it up with National Geographic to ask why the term is not being used. Since the more people who are turned on by this crypto permie couple's way of life, the more could be given the nudge toward other permie ideas, especially if some context were given that this way of life has a substantial community willing to share ideas!

Stu Horton

Posts: 30

Location: Coastal New jersey

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posted 2 years ago

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Robert,

I don't know if that's NG's reasoning, that might be it whether your assumption is true or not, I have no "PDC" certification, but I do have a horticultural degree and I wouldn't hesitate to use the terms permaculture or agriculture to describe something I was doing. Not that I would ever do agriculture. Let's keep it semi sustainable right?

Plenty of farmers are doing agriculture and calling it that without a college degree. Many are doing horticulture as well...

That being said, maybe a show or network would be concerned about liability or something like that so your idea might not be that far off.

Hi, I'm looking for land in nj or nearby that's not too close to sea level. Excludes almost everything south of rt 70. 2 acres and up. If you know if anything please send me pm. Thanks

First place I ever heard the term "forest garden" was on this show from Tony and Amelia. That led me to do more research, find that This permaculture thing existed and that I've been doing some of the very things that it entails. Also led me here. So there is a precedent for this show to do good things for permaculture

I've heard of this but haven't watched it, as I lack the patience to watch TV and am skeptical of most major networks. They tend to make a mockery of homesteaders and survivalists, make light of real success, and capitalize on mistakes and failures to discourage the population from trying to escape their gilded cage.

Stu Horton

Posts: 30

Location: Coastal New jersey

2

posted 2 years ago

1

"They tend to make a mockery of homesteaders and survivalists, and make light of real success, and capitalize on mistakes and failures to discourage the population from trying to escape their gilded cage."

They definitely try to make the show more dramatic and gross than it needs to be but I don't think this show would discourage anyone already interested in any of the lifestyles shown. It's fairly impartial and missy of the obstacles that come up are followed by solutions. If anything, as any earlier poster mentioned, they make the solutions appear easier and faster than reality.

One character, that lives in the swamp of Georgia had his "cabin" burn down early on. He mourns the loss of it but part of his segment since has been him moving on like it's no big deal and rebuilding.

Hi, I'm looking for land in nj or nearby that's not too close to sea level. Excludes almost everything south of rt 70. 2 acres and up. If you know if anything please send me pm. Thanks

Stu Horton

Posts: 30

Location: Coastal New jersey

2

posted 2 years ago

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I was just thinking about what aetna said in their last post and I have to give the producers more credit. For example they'll show Tony saving pee in a bucket and using it as fertilizer. They could leave it at that but instead they show some statistics about how many times people flush a toilet per day and how many thousands of gallons of clean water that wastes per year per person.

Or they'll give some factoids about factory farmed meat when someone's hunting.

Their goal isn't too make these people look completely crazy or they wouldn't provide this info.

Hi, I'm looking for land in nj or nearby that's not too close to sea level. Excludes almost everything south of rt 70. 2 acres and up. If you know if anything please send me pm. Thanks

I'm lucky enough to have several times personally met Colbert, the South Georgia trapper who appears on this show. I can assure everyone that his lifestyle and skills really are pretty much as presented. I also met someone who briefly appears as a friend of Thorn's, and she is also pretty legit. So this encourages me to view the rest of the show with a good deal of respect. There are definitely parts that are speeded up.....for instance Tony and Amelia's apparently completing a cob rocket mass heater in a single day; but I think that's inevitable and excusable. The mere fact that such people are being featured for a mainstream audience is wonderful!

Alder Burns (adiantum)

Stu Horton

Posts: 30

Location: Coastal New jersey

2

posted 2 years ago

Alder burns,

Unlike some "reality" shows I've never gotten the impression that these people move into a hotel when the cameras are off.

What I love most about the show is that it's exposing my kids to a life that we're working towards.

Hi, I'm looking for land in nj or nearby that's not too close to sea level. Excludes almost everything south of rt 70. 2 acres and up. If you know if anything please send me pm. Thanks

In an episode I just watched, probably an old one, Tony went through a "the problem is the solution" drill with regard to honeysuckle. "What eats this?" "I bet rabbits would eat this!" "Our problem isn't too much honeysuckle, it's not enough rabbits!"

You can't tell me he isn't doing permaculture, or at least trying to.

I wouldn't say the producers are trying to pretty it up, though; in the episode where he's pouring his pee on his plants, they show him (from the rear) filling/overflowing a small jar in the natural way, screwing on the lid with his fingers, carrying it across his yard, and then slopping it everywhere with his bare hands. Not unsafe, but unnecessarily gross. Honestly I think he just hasn't put much thought into how to make that part of his system touchless and odorless.

My wife and I have watched the show since the first season. Out of all of the garbage TV that is out there, this show has actually held our interests. It is a small step, but this show is introducing the "main stream" to alternative ways of living. I agree with the other commentators that the show does a good job of not making the people look crazy and introduces factoids that support the lifestyle. Hopefully we will see more of this type of programming. My 2 cents

geoff lawton has stated in an interview with Paul Wheaton that there is absolutely no requirement to have done a PDC in order to teach permaculture, or use permaculture, or describe what you're doing as permaculture. So there's that.

Suburban? To me that word invokes cul-de-sacs, common fences, grassed yards, and seeing into your neighbor's windows from your own windows. None of the people in this show even have visible neighbors or mowed grass, so it's not a word I would have chosen.

Amelia is a hippie chick. Being a hippie chick means you have to make some compromises between clothing practicality and presentation. If you go all-out for practicality, you end up presenting as a farm wife, which is no bad thing in the abstract but has squareness issues for hippie chicks.

From what I saw of the cute hippie couple they're taking what looks like regrowth forest on very steep land, clearing it and adding some veggie etc beds enclosed by flimsy surrounds.

Clearing forest to grow crops on marginal land? Isn't that one of the poor sustainability practices that has contributed to the mess we're in?

By the look of the forest I'm guessing it's a reasonably high-rainfall area. Without trees to hold it together there's a reasonable chance that once they've cleared their block if they get a substantial amount of rain they'll almost definitely get sheet erosion and possibly a slip that will see their topsoil head off down the slope.

They're burning green waste that's just been clipped using an accelerant of some kind. Why not compost it? Setting a fire on top of soil does all sorts of damage to soil structure and health. And anything larger than twiggy stuff makes good kindling.

Bit of a mess IMO.

When's the best time to plant a tree? About 20 years ago. When's the next best time? Today!

Tyler Ludens

pollinator

Posts: 9744

Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8

189

posted 2 years ago

David Wood wrote: They're burning green waste that's just been clipped using an accelerant of some kind.

That doesn't sound good! That's what folks do around here - they cut down a bunch of cedar (juniper), make a big pile, and then set it on fire with gasoline!

Idle dreamer

Jason Silberschneider

Posts: 177

15

posted 2 years ago

Burning clippings... accelerant... I feel we're closing in on the reason permaculture hasn't been brought up in the show yet!

Alder Burns

pollinator

Posts: 1412

Location: northern California

51

posted 2 years ago

People do what they've got to do. Perhaps the hillside is the only land they could afford, without moving far away. The challenge of permaculture is often how to make the best of a less than ideal situation. Yes, hillsides beyond a certain degree of slope are best left in forest, but "what if"? To reply to others, I have spent many years in hot humid climates, and so has my partner, and a thin short dress would be a lot more endurable in the summer climate than heavy long work clothes and boots! I have started a new homestead in raw Georgia 'bush', most of it in a pair of cutoffs and sandals.

Alder Burns (adiantum)

David Wood

Posts: 53

Location: Sth Gippsland and Melbourne

5

posted 2 years ago

Alder Burns wrote:People do what they've got to do. Perhaps the hillside is the only land they could afford, without moving far away. The challenge of permaculture is often how to make the best of a less than ideal situation. Yes, hillsides beyond a certain degree of slope are best left in forest, but "what if"?

So their only option in life is to engage in clearly unsustainable activities? Which IMO are extremely likely to cause severe damage to their block which can take centuries to repair. As well as with a bad slip wiping out the road below them and possibly damaging the land of neighbours down the slope. I just don't see how that's justifiable. If they can't afford to buy a block that's suited to agriculture or they don't have the expertise to properly farm on slopes - good quality terracing is very high input but can with maintenance can last for millennia - perhaps they should choose other activities.

There's a relevant expression about wrapping yourself in the flag. Politicians will often justify some course of action by claiming they're more patriotic than someone with an opposing view. Just because this couple think they're doing something with a light footprint doesn't mean this is the case.

Because a lot of people watching this show may not have the experience to critically review there's a real danger that viewers will think this is sustainable behaviour.

When's the best time to plant a tree? About 20 years ago. When's the next best time? Today!

Alder Burns

pollinator

Posts: 1412

Location: northern California

51

posted 2 years ago

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Perhaps I need to put on my permaculture design hat next time I see the show and get really detailed, but as I recall there seemed to be plenty of green stuff left on that slope, and that they had rough terraces in place. Perhaps it would be a useful exercise to observe it and try to design improvements rather than just suggesting they leave? Yes, I suppose, being Americans, they probably could leave. But there are many many people in similar situations elsewhere in the world where that's not an option, where all the good land is growing export crops and the only alternative is a city sweatshop or worse!

Just putting in my two cents here, but National Geographic, even the magazine now, has been bought out by the 21st Century Fox News. Yeah. -Them-. That should be enough said in regards to the 'validity' of anything they air.

Not growing or raising anything at the moment, but I'm here doing research for the future.

Having now seen the contentious episode in question, I am not particularly troubled by it.

I burned a lot of slash when I first started working on my woods. Slash takes up a lot of space. It wasn't until I started learning about the benefits of slash piles (and put that together with the fact that I have the luxury of lots of space) that I stopped burning.

Tony explains in the episode that they bought steep land because it was cheap, and they didn't have the money to buy very much. The burning he explains is because they don't have anywhere to pile the slash. And they are intensively terracing and planting every inch of their slopes.

I believe I would find another way. But I'm not inclined to sit in judgment of people who are trying.

Tiny doesn't have the internet. Has probably been winging it for some time. Is it perfect? No, but it's probably the best example of permaculture on tv. I'm sure the pros here can find a lot that they're doing wrong...

And as to Tony and Amelia being poorly clothed for work, they get there clothes from boxes people leave on the side of the road for them. You know the saying... if I was going to comment on their clothing it would have been when they were collecting be swarms. That was hilarious.

Hi, I'm looking for land in nj or nearby that's not too close to sea level. Excludes almost everything south of rt 70. 2 acres and up. If you know if anything please send me pm. Thanks

Hello,
This is Tony from the TV show. A friend of mine told me about this conversation so I created an account.
Feel free to ask me any questions...I'll have internet access the next couple of days.

Anthony Francis

Posts: 7

4

posted 2 years ago

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This is Tony again.
This article sums up why I avoid the word permaculture.
http://academia-danubiana.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/2.12.09.01_HARPER-A-critique-of-permaculture.pdf If you want to save time just skip to page eight. I agree with everything this author has to say about permaculture.
This is my favorite excerpt from the article.
If you were in India, say, and encountered someone helping a blind beggar across the road, it would be odd to say "I see you are a Christian" as if Christianity had a monopoly on kindness. In the same way it seems odd to me if people say "Oh I see you're into Permaculture"; am I? I am inclined to answer "Yes" on the understanding that Permaculture is another name for the holistic approach. But then all hell breaks loose: people project so much baggage onto the term that using it at all leads to a godawful tangle of confusion and misunderstanding. I've learned to steer clear of it; I prefer to speak in plain English and say what I really mean

There was a time when I called myself a permaculturalist. I was young and idealistic. I am older and slightly wiser now, and I actively distance myself from ideologies...including permaculture. When people ask me what I do, I generally reply "I plant useful trees". This is concrete and tangible to anyone. Permaculture isn't something you can do, because it's an idea that exists only in the fertile imagination of homo sapiens. Planting a tree on the other hand is all doing...no need for explanation...no need for a philosophical discussion...you just plant the tree...done!
Here is a (in my opinion) funny video that hints at my dissatisfaction with permaculture.

To quote the opening line of the video "we can see permaculture as a musical symphony, a symphony to freedom". OH REALLY! Well, not only does that have nothing to do with my homestead, but it doesn't actually mean anything. This type of vague, feel good jargon is rampant in the permaculture community. Thus, my disatisfaction.
Life is short, I take concrete steps towards concrete goals and sometimes it works....that's what I am doing. It doesn't need a name.
Feel free to pick my brain if you wish.
And just a side note, I love Eleagnus! Let's talk about how cool Eleagnus is...especially the evergreen species...good winter fodder for rabbits.
And a side side note...I'm having huge successes growing Camelia sinensis!!!

Alder Burns

pollinator

Posts: 1412

Location: northern California

51

posted 2 years ago

I used to live on a raw homestead in central Georgia and had my own interactions with eleagnus and tea. I recall a very delicious deciduous eleagnus, that we could strip the berries off the branches and munch as is, and that made great wine! The evergreen eleagnus is considered an invasive there, but that just made it all the more important as a winter browse for my goats (along with privet, "ligustrum", bamboo and a few others). I had a bunch of tea, and the related tea-oil camellia grown for seed oil, started from seed and coming along nicely. Summer dry spells were more harmful to them than winter freezes.

Eleagnus love here. I have to keep defending the three in our front yard from my poor misguided mother (she calls them "ugly agnes"). Delicious berries in spring, nitrogen fixer year round, honey bees and the cute gargantuan black bumble bees cover the bushes in early winter. Great bush and one of the invisible landscaping edibles.

The government thinks you are too stupid to make your own lightbulb choices. But this tiny ad thinks you are smart: