Thursday, October 15, 2015

Published versus unpublished: the topic that will not die

Yes, you did recently answer a question titled "What does unpublished mean?" Your answer may have been too advanced for me and to my reading didn't quite answer my question (or maybe it did and I'm just too inexperienced to see the answer when placed right in front of my face).

To clarify: I've been spending time on critiquecircle.com and they mention over and over that if a manuscript is submitted only to their members, by a member, for a critique on critiquecircle.com , it is never considered "published." Therefore, it is safe for me to submit my writing for critique as under those circumstances (only reviewed by members and not available to the Internet as a whole) the manuscript will never be considered "previously published" by an agent or a publisher.
However, from what I am seeing on your blog, and other sources, it may not be that cut and dried. Some may consider manuscripts submitted to these member-only sites as published, some may not.
If it isn't as clear cut as the websites indicate, I do not want to submit to them for critique and potentially lose my "unpublished" status.
So, am I possibly putting my unpublished status in peril by submitting to websites such as critiquecircle.com or absolutewrite.com for critique?
I apologize if I am being tedious or dense. I just don't want do something that may have unexpected negative consequences down the road.

The problem with XYZ.com telling you that your work won't be considered published if posted on their site, is that the one deciding what's considered published is NOT XYZ.com It's the next site down the submission path: JETREIDFUSSYPANTS.com

If JetReidFussyPants has submission guidelines that say "if you've put this up on a website for reader input we consider it published" it doesn't matter what Critique Circle says. It doesn't matter what Absolute Write says. They don't set the rules for JRFP.com

HOWEVER!

Book publishers generally don't give a fig if something has been posted for reader comment or even if it's been published with an ISBN number. That does NOT preclude them from publishing it at all. In fact, they publish things as reprints ALL the time. The only thing they want to know is can they make more money from it?

Where you run in to this published/unpublished dichotomy is with contests and magazines. They have much more stringent rules about what they'll consider. And the rules are THEIRS. They can say "nothing that's ever seen the light of day" and that's that.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about this. It seems like a lot of people are spinning their woodland creature rodent wheels on this topic and mostly it's not going to matter at all.

I'm one of the most conservative agents on "nothing previously published" that I know of, and my benchmark is an ISBN and offered for sale.

Try not to fret about getting feedback on a work in progress. It's more important to get better at your craft right now than worry about some potential contest down the road.

>>If it isn't as clear cut as the websites indicate, I do not want to submit to them for critique and potentially lose my "unpublished" status.

Are you posting an entire 100k manuscript online? I personally wouldn't do that. But requesting feedback on your chapter 1, or a scene you're having a bit of trouble with, sounds good. We all need CPs and beta readers.

The “bottom line” that I get from Janet's response, is like a standard legal answer. It depends. And since that sounds like the opposite of “clear cut”, it sounds to me like you shouldn't do it. If you're this worried/concerned about this question, make your life a lot less stressful [because most of us have way too much stress to deal with anyway] and don't post any of your ms online. Find individual CPs and send to them by email.

Diane: You'd think. But it seems not everyone reads this blog or the archives. What gives?! :)

Let's see if we can make this simple. If we're talking about querying the "published" work, then go ahead and query. Mention the "publication" history in your housekeeping. What's the worse that could happen? A rejection. You're probably already getting those as a matter of course. And if we're talking magazine/contest submissions, read the fine print.

Yeah, though I walk through the valley of contract rights, wrongs and implications I shall fear no fine print. The Queen stands over me with the wrath of a shark's feeding frenzy. Her right is over the pot of gold wrestled from those little ______s at the end of the contract rainbow. Her left hand holds the rod she beat the ____ out of those contact demons with the last vestige of its misbegotten contract hanging on the end.

I agree with the 2Ds, enough said, unless your aim is to submit to JRFP.

E.M. I don’t think 2Ns meant she’s addicted to this blog, I believe she was referring to being addicted to being the first to comment. Then again, aren’t all the Reiders here addicted to Janet’s blog? Of course we are! I know I can’t go a day without reading Janet’s posts. I may not always comment or read the comments, especially when I’m traveling, but miss a post — no way!

"Book publishers generally don't give a fig if something has been posted for reader comment or even if it's been published with an ISBN number...The only thing they want to know is can they make more money from it?"

Whenever I see questions like these, I'm again reminded of the lovely Sarah Maas, whose Queen of Glass was once a standalone Cinderella retelling posted to FictionPress. It was reworked (and retitled to Throne of Glass), sold to Bloomsbury, and has now been expanded into a popular YA fantasy series. She had a solid following and a great story--two variables that likely piqued an agent/publisher's interest and led to it being picked up.

In fact, a lot of good fiction over on FictionPress has been removed from the site (by the authors) and published elsewhere--some by smaller publishers and some through self-publishing. I don't know if any of those other stories have reached the popularity of Maas' work, but it reiterates the often frustrating point that anything can happen in this business.

Diane, yes, I was being lazy today and decided 2Ds was quicker to type than Diane and Dena. I kinda like that...it goes well with 2Ns even though Carolynn is all by her lonesome. Not really, 2Ds and 2Ns makes 3.

I'm not familiar with CritiqueCircle, but most sites meant for critiquing--such as AW--require registration and are password-protected. That means google searches won't pull up the short story you posted for critique. So it's not posted in a way that lets random people find it and read it.

If, however, you post that short story publicly on your blog, it IS available for anyone to read. That's considered published by the short story markets, and many of them plainly state that in their submission guidelines.

I joined when I was drafting my MS. I posted the first chapter and received a quick and brutal lesson in the basics (formatting dialogue tags correctly) and the "rules" (don't start with a character waking up, avoid adverbs, etc).

I improved much more rapidly than I would have on my own. I posted another handful of chapters, but most of the critiques never elevated beyond those basics and rules.

But-and there is a but-I joined a community of writers, much like you lovely people in Janet's comment section, and that has made all the difference. I met my two fabulous CPs and a handful of helpful beta readers. I met a bunch of people who's stuff I've never read but we still support and encourage each other and just generally get it.

I'd say my MS would not be as good as it is today without those people, but the truth is my MS wouldn't even be finished without them. Every writer should have a community, as long as that community doesn't become a distraction from the actual writing.

Most magazines will not consider work submitted for critique to an online organization to be published if it is limited by password to members. Those spaces are private, not public. Generally, membership is limited to other writers who are also critiquing and submitting things for critique. These are not your audience. You will not be harming the magazine's sales by posting there.

If you come across a market (a magazine or contest) that says something like 'anything posted online is published', and if you really, really want to submit to that market, ask them specifically what they mean. Ask them if they mean password-protected critique groups. Most of these will get back to you saying, "What? Those aren't posted online. Those are private." And the ones that don't probably aren't worth your time.

The (very) few contests and magazines who would object wouldn't stop me from posting to a password-protected critique group. Most markets - and I'm sure you, too - want the works to be perfectly polished diamonds. That's rare, without input. And online groups can offer input you can't get at home (unless you live in a huge city like New York and can find just the right group for you there.)

And again - that's only short stories. Not novels. There are hundreds of short story markets out there. The few that might object to an online critique group aren't worth losing the chance at bettering your work.

Craig: I agree. Janet needs that as a plaque or wall hanging or something. But be sure to put the missing words in there. She'll be so proud!

I worry about these things, too, since I like to enter contests. If I have submitted to the Writer's Digest contest and they ignored it, can I enter it in another contest since it is unpublished? I never know.

We used to have local writers print out collections of their poems, have them bound, and ask us to sell them on consignment. This happened ALL THE TIME. People could buy the books, but I never considered them published because there was no publishing company and no ISBN. We'd have to make up an ISBN, which our computer system would happily generate, and I STILL didn't consider these books published. A real ISBN has to come from a the official ISBN producing company.

I've been part of online crit groups on Writing.com for about 9 years now and I wouldn't be where I am today without those people. I post all my chapters there for critique, but because they're password protected and only available to people with a certain level of membership, I've never worried about anyone considering my work published. I also consider having my chapters posted there a very valuable back-up should my hard drive crash or my laptop get swiped.... On the site, there is an option to have your work public, but I would never do that wth anything I wanted to submit for publication.

Diane, if Dena says no, there's always Donna. Or maybe you'll become the 3Ds. Then again, will we hear from Donna today...where is she? She must know how curious we all are! Christina seems to be the only one in the know.

My "no" was based on what OP wrote. If it's not clear cut, s/he didn't want to do it. Always always always listen to your gut. Even if 100 people say otherwise, you'll always wonder and regret. Don't do that to yourself. If after hearing multiple opinions, your gut still says don't do it, listen to your gut.

Donnaeve has had to sit on this news for awhile, but as Christina said, here it is in PM today:

DebutDonna Everhart's THE EDUCATION OF DIXIE DUPREE, focusing on the sharedsecrets existing between an eleven-year-old and her mother, and who when confronted by cruelty from those closest to her, exhibits a prevailing spirit and resilience beyond her years, to John Scognamiglioat Kensington by John Talbot at Talbot Fortune Agency(World).

This part was in Donna's email to me today letting me know the embargo was lifted:

Sooo, just when ya'll think I've been off celebrating, popping champagne corks and whatnot (it's past 8:58 a.m., I can do that now, right Craig?), dancing around the house (well yeah, okay I have been since, well a while back)

...in reality what have I been doing?

Drum roll.....

Scrubbing out the toilets. Nothing like a reality check.

Umhm. Yeah, THAT'S what I've been busy doing while ya'll have been hooting and hollering over here.

And then I FINALLY got to sit down and read the post and the comments - hubby headed out to MS today so I've been up since 4:30 - and I'm happily reading along when I start to see my name - a lot. Or alot. A bunch. And I backed up, and realized I'd somehow missed Christina's comment about her seeing it in PM.

Ha - what can I say? I'm still cross-eyed with excitement after ALL these months. The offer came April 1st - how's that for the day of a book deal? April Fools??? Ask me if I care. Nope, nope nope.

I'll share on my blog tomorrow. So much has already happened.

THANK YOU MS. JANET for sharing! And thank you Reiders, for all of your good wishes!

@Colin: Awww, Colin, thank you,, buddy. How did I not tell? I think I was in shock - still am in some ways. This was actually an easy one to keep. If losing sleep because of being giddy for months on end is easy.

@Theresa - thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed reading it!

@Dena, I talked about it briefly at the bar with QOTKU, Colin and Loretta Sue Ross, after a beer I think - ha go figure. Although QOTKU has known for some time.

Congratulations, Donna!!! Like everyone else has already said, extremely well done not only on such an INCREDIBLE achievement - but also on keeping it quiet for such a long time!!!! *virtual high-five*

... and I am led to deep philosophical contemplation: If I would drink a bottle of Newkie Brown in honor of Donna's book deal, what will I do if/when this happens to me? Hmmm... Drink TWO bottles of Newkie Brown? :)

Oh gosh Donna, I'm sorry! I certainly didn't mean to steal your thunder. I figured since I haven't been around regularly over the past few weeks that everybody probably knew and I was just getting around to finding out.

I'm *usually* the last to know. I swear. Ask my kids.

Anyway I'm very sorry about that. But I truly did jump up and down in my chair when I saw your name in the PM email. I did a double take.

Which leads me to a question for the QOTKU. Why is such lovely news embargoed? I mean, I understand waiting until the ink is dry and all, and I'm sure there is a very good reason. But six months is forever. =o

Christina - absolutely NO apologies necessary - are you kidding!?!?!? don't make me come to Alaska...and below 75 is cold for me, so that's saying something.

Seriously, I was grinning - no, not grinning - more like hooting like a damn owl (my crazy laugh when I'm really tickled) when you burst on the scene with that preemptive pause (perfect) and filled everyone in. Me? I'd been quiet about it for so long, I wasn't sure I'd be able to talk.

Donna, so, so happy for you! I swear, it’s close to 3 am here in Paris and I’m about to go to bed. We opened a bottle of champagne earlier this evening to celebrate your good news.

Hubby: “What are we celebrating?” Me: “Donna’s good news.”(Hubby with a quizzical look on his face. He doesn’t know a Donna.)Hubby: “Is she part of Janet’s click?” Me: “You got it. Her book deal was announced.”Hubby: “It’d be nicer if you had a book deal, but hey, here’s to Donna.”Me: “ Cin cin!”

The only one missing was you, but believe me, you were here in spirit. Congrats!

Donna I'm so glad you're not offended! And yes, please do come up to Alaska! That would be a blast - we'd pop open a big fat bottle of icy Alaskan vodka and toast your success! Like I said, it couldn't have happened to a nicer person. <3

Yowza! Super news, Donna. Love it, love it, love it. I drank a Bud Light in your honor earlier tonight. I just didn't known it was in your honor at the time. (Doing the opposite of the "write drunk, edit sober" advice.)

Awesome news. The blog is rockin' tonight, it's cracking me up what a virtual party feels like.

Tip o' the cap to you, Donna. Wow, that's great. I'm probably so late to the party I'll have to say this again tomorrow. Friday.

I just got my first cup of coffee, couldn't get Little Dog up to keep me company since Hubby's gone, and so I came *here* and WOW. The comments have once again given me shivers, and filled my heart.

YOu guyz (as QOTKU) would say...are better than best.

Lynn, your story about you and your hubby drinking champagne and that snippet of a conversation gave me my first laugh of the day. A gift.

And then I kept on reading and looking at time stamps, and thinking Wow, this blog does stretch around some time zones, doesn't it??? But I was in bed by 9:15 Easter Shark Time, so what I'm trying to say is:

THANK YOU John, Sam, Lynn, Jennifer, Megan, Poof!, and Janice!!!! And Christina, again! And Craig? Did I thank Craig? THANK YOU Craig! All of you, are the best, and I'm just sitting here grinning from ear to ear. I feel loved.

Am I hogging the tail end comments here? Donna, there are two versions of “cin cin.” The Italian one is similar to saying “cheers.” The Japanese version...well I’ll let you look it up. (I was going for the Italian one. Lol.)

The Fabulous Blog Readers

Search This Blog

The 411

I'm a literary agent in NYC. I specialize in crime fiction and narrative non-fiction (history and biography.) I'll be glad to receive a query letter from you; guidelines to help you decide if I'm looking for what you write are below.
There are several posts labelled "query pitfalls" and "annoy me" that may help you avoid some common mistakes when querying.