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Author
Topic: Of Man-Things And Lady-Places (Read 5439 times)

There's been some grumbling here and there about the new Women's Forum...two or three threads tying into it, actually. I've spoken up a bit about it myself because the establishment of the forum and some of the responses to it have made me wonder if there are assumptions made about differences between men and women when it comes to sensitive topics. Is it naturally assumed that men don't want or need the same type of safe spaces? Are there really times when men would also like to have the ability to bring things up just among the other boys? How much of the rumbling is genuinely based in a desire to see such an area established? I also pointed out in the "I've Been Bad" thread that that seemed like an area that might be man (specifically gay man) specific. It seemed to inhabit a realm outside of the women folk. I noted that because one of the earliest responses to it came from a female...something that couldn't happen in a reverse situation. Personally, I'm pretty much OK with discussing my issues out in the general arena. The clinical nature of this disease has meant that I have had to become accustomed to women viewing my privates, collecting urine samples and such. It kind of muted the men/women issue for me, and I made the asumption that was the case in general. I'm wanting to know: is there a genuine desire for such an area? Would it help or hurt the forums? How might you suggest it be divided if so? Men's, Women's and General or what? Some of the posts have seemed to be kinda miffy....others contained what seemed some earnest interest. I think the establishment of the Women's Forum (or any other new forum if it ends up promoting needed dialogue that otherwise wouldn't happen) is a good idea. The question is would the establishment of a Men's Forum also be good or unnecessary? I would add to that: are there any other areas that you can think of that aren't getting addressed in the proper weight? I wondered about the notion of HIV and Aging. I know there is already Living With, but I wondered if there was perhaps subject matter enough there to warrant its own place. I'm not trying to be more divisive here. I'm trying to unearth areas that might not be getting proper attention.

Women are naturally reticent to discuss certain issues in an open forum, just as many men are. Expecting that they feel entirely safe here can be presumptuous. I understand this despite the fact that I have little practical experience with women's health issues.

I have absolutely no qualms about the new forum, and doubt that it'll impact me personally. If a poster has said something that has made me wish to add an opinion and I'm barred from contributing to the thread, I can always PM her.

Brent(Who wants everyone here to feel as safe here as he does)

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Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

I would like to respectfully point out that the men do have their own site and it is called AIDSmeds. In my two year participation I have never seen the men on site reluctant to talk about anything and I mean anything. Take it or leave it the site is dominated by the men and gay men in particular. To me it's neither here nor there, good or bad, but a simple fact. As a gay man I think I can understand why the women would want their own personal space. It is telling that most if not all the concern has been raised by the men. Lis tried to speak about it and look what happened to her thread. If I was a woman (no puns) I would be reluctant to respond in kind. Unlearning learned and conditional behavior can be daunting even for the strongest.

I am amused that a "Positive Women" content has become overwhelmed by the male perspective. Step back give it a little breathing space. Who knows just by viewing and not talking the men might learn something?

Yes, most of the concern has been raised by men. Which is why I am asking the men: Do any of you feel a legitimate need to have a similar space of your own to hash things out just among the men. I find it odd that merely inquiring about this is viewed as an attack against the women having such a forum. I'm just asking: If some of you are upset, do you genuinely feel a need for one as well. And I have to respectfully disagree: the fact that the majority of people posting here are men doesn't automatically qualify this as men having AIDSmeds as thier own site. Again, I call up the "I have been bad" thread. That was a very male-centered topic, yet one of the first responses came from a woman. With all due respect to that poster, it wasn't a very constructive response- and I had to find that extra telling because I couldn't help but note that it was a situation that the women would not be in.

And yes, in these years men have talked about any and all kinds of things...they likely never had it brought into consideration that they may have a choice in that. Now it has come to light that they might. If some men feel they need or want such a space, I am suggesting that they post here or PM the moderators and let that be known.

I want this to cease being viewed as something to be dismissed outright or a question of subtraction. It's a question of addition. To me it's telling that even posing this question is met with dismissiveness or resistance. When men express that, they're getting called whiners and such. I don't see posing the question to men as having any less value than posing it to women.

Like with the notion of HIV and Aging, there may be some consolidation and restructuring of AM to make it more accomodating to all.

There are larger questions at play in Milkie's thread like the $25,000 question if there's ever a time when disclosure isn't possible/probable. As HIV+ people, we have ethical dilemmas. Some are unique to being a woman, others unique to being gay/bi men. But a cross-pollenation of opinion and insight means that such things become universal.

Will a woman ever find herself on her knees in a backroom? Doubtful. But has a woman ever attended a group-sex event? Probable.

Will I ever anguish over how to disclose to my child? Never. Will I ever have a question about how the meds effect my menstruation? Never. These things preclude me. And my perspective would be of no more insight into those questions than that of a forty-something mom braving the wilds of Nebraska did in a thread on sexclub barebacking. But why exclude her? If you feel that she's out of line, call her out either in the thread or via PM.

Again...I feel totally accommodated right here in the old Living forum.

Brent(Who hopes that everything stays pleasant)

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Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Oh, dear Hal, but you have... What do you think the presence of Guests represents?

It represents reluctancy in opening up about one's self, yet the need to connect vicariously through others.

There will always be a percentage of the populace who will not speak up for fears. Conversely, there are always the loudmouths that talk about EVERYTHING.

-joseph

I think the presence of guests represents many, many, things...none that can be summed up in one sentence. Maybe I should have said there seems to be no reluctance on the part of the men who have posted to talk about anything and everything. I'm looking at this simply through the dynamic of societal dominance of men over women...not on an individual needs basis.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

There are more women infected with hiv than there are men worldwide - and this site is global.

Ann

A stat I was completey unaware of but makes total sense when you figure in Africa and under developed countries.

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

There are larger questions at play in Milkie's thread like the $25,000 question if there's ever a time when disclosure isn't possible/probable. As HIV+ people, we have ethical dilemmas. Some are unique to being a woman, others unique to being gay/bi men. But a cross-pollenation of opinion and insight means that such things become universal.

Will a woman ever find herself on her knees in a backroom? Doubtful. But has a woman ever attended a group-sex event? Probable.

Will I ever anguish over how to disclose to my child? Never. Will I ever have a question about how the meds effect my menstruation? Never. These things preclude me. And my perspective would be of no more insight into those questions than that of a forty-something mom braving the wilds of Nebraska did in a thread on sexclub barebacking. But why exclude her? If you feel that she's out of line, call her out either in the thread or via PM.

Again...I feel totally accommodated right here in the old Living forum.

Brent(Who hopes that everything stays pleasant)

There really isn't a need to ask that of me. I stated where I personally stand in the original post here. The question is to others out there if they would feel safer or more comfortable having a similar arena that is being offered to the women. You asked above: "Why exclude her?" Well, why exclude men? As you said, there are ethical dilemmas..."Some are unique to being a woman, others unique to being gay/bi men. But a cross-pollenation of opinion and insight means that such things become universal." Why is that being viewed as only one way here?

Look: There's something that I feel is a good thing happening with Joe Killfoile and his thread about HIV and Aging. I'm posing this based on murmurs in various threads and also from PM's I've gotten expressing a genuine interest in such a thing. I put this up here to try to focus some of that because I figured if there was going to be rumbling, it might as well be put toward some constructive end. I have never said the women's thing shouldn't be here. I haven't said that I personally don't feel accomodated. I think it's pretty obvious that I feel quite at home here. Lord knows I lurk here plenty. I'm just tabling it for discussion. I think it's widely recognized that women sometimes have reservations about openly discussing certain things. I think it far less acknowledged that men do- though I think a good many of them indeed do. The cliched way of saying it would be the old "boys don't cry" expression, perhaps. Like Strayboy said, I think there is often a need to connect, but a reluctance to open up.

At this point, I think I have done my part to put this out there. If it's needed or wanted, it's time for others to get brave and say so here or to the moderators. If not, so be it.

Are you not afraid that a gay men forum would degenerate into a bath house? The moderators already have problems following all the threads and posts, it may be very difficult for them to keep this in line?

Are you not afraid that a gay men forum would degenerate into a bath house? The moderators already have problems following all the threads and posts, it may be very difficult for them to keep this in line?

From my perspective as a gay man, I am comfortable discussing issues in the general "Living With HIV" forums. That is, I am as comfortable as I can be, which is to say that I am not always comfortable doing so. But for me, having a gay men's forumwouldn't make me feel any more comfortable. I feel like I get plenty of advice andinput from the gay men here.

I do recognize that some folks feel more comfortable discussing issues with,and seeking input from, people who are like themselves. More specific forums canbe a good way to achieve this. And, fortunately, it's probably not that expensive tocreate a new forum.

That said, what concerns me is the potential for divisiveness that this could pose.Not that we haven't had our fair share lately anyway. But I would not want to seepeople "retreat to their own corners" so to speak, and only participating in certain forums. While there is definitely valuable perspective and information that comes from people who are similar to us, the same is true from people who are different than us. Diversityof people bring diversity of experience, thought and information.

It can be a difficult balance to achieve. I would not want to lose either of these perspectives. And I'm not saying that this necessarily will happen, but I have beenin groups and organizations where dissent has led to this. Not that I have problemswith dissent and healthy debate either, as long as it is done in a constructive andgenuine manner. It is a valuable source of learning for me.

Again, I have no problem with creating additional forums if that is what the AM forumscommunity wants. It can be a way to get more folks to participate (though I think thereare some folks who will always lurk, no matter what). I'd just like everyone to rememberwhat we in common, as well as what makes us unique.

None of us is as strong as all of us. To me, that is fundamentally why we come here.

I apologize if I've strayed too far from the original intent of Tim's thread. But I felt thiswas important to say.

Regards,

Henry

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

I havent read the entire thread and I dont want to diminish anyones comments because they are all important.A long time ago, here in Philly , support groups were being formed for people dealing with HIV. At the time it was mostly gay men and the men who were bi-sexual ( and/or closeted). There were not enough support group facilitators to put all the wives of the bi-sexuals in separate groups. So women were placed in groups with gay men. It was probably beneficial for both the gay men and the women. One story I know of is that the gay men taught the women how to talk about sex...since talking about sex was pretty much taboo in the straight community. Have times changed that much? Our schools still do not talk about sexual identity and sexual practices and HIV prevention. It seems to me that its a good thing for people to learn the COMMONALITIES as well as the differences of people with HIV. This will not happen if people are isolated.Modified to say: In the sense that women have specific issues concerning health, it is a good thing if a lot of information is in one place. Still, I dont know if separating the sexes is a good thing.

Many years ago when Matty the Damned was a neophyte undergraduate (and much given to redundancies) a huge debate erupted on his campus.

It concerned the Women's Room. A small room in the Union building which was a female only space.

A group of men (knuckle dragging conservatives -- see? more redundancy) approached the Student Council demanding that similar space be allocated to the Y chromosomes. I remember that meeting well. Given that Council was composed of homos, femos and a minority of nervous but well trained left-wing heterosexual males, the rock-ape proposal went down in a screaming heap.

When one sloping browed rugby boy demanded to know "why do we have to have a womens room?" one of our resident lesbians smartly replied

"Because every other room on this campus is a fucking mens' room, you arsehole."

Excellent posts, you guys! Henry, you didn't stray far from the topic at all. In my opinion, it is still (as usual) right on target. I personally am not too keen on dividing the forums up by sex...I am WAY to attached to some of the ladies on here for that. And I do think the comingling is a good thing. I've just heard some rumbling since the onset of the Women's Forum and thought I'd table it to focus the murmurs and find out what (if any) legitimate interest there was. It's notable to me that few of the more vocal rumblers haven't posted here.

I'm not looking to be the spokesman or chair for such a forum, but you can expect similar threads from me if I hear any other such murmurs from any particular group of posters here in the future.

The sexism here is both overt and subtle. How would we feel if we stood by as majority women discussed the virtues of a separate (gay) men's forum? A number of women wanted a separate forum and what business is that of ours? WITH THE SHIT I SEE WOMEN IN MY LIFE AND IN THE WORLD FACE EVERYDAY, I wonder, can't the (gay) men sympathize that physically-biologically, emotionally-psychologically and socially they NEED to do their own thing in the spirit of freedom and equality?

My only fear is that I will miss their participation. I just hope the posts of women don't diminish here.

Think of the female heroes in our lives and let's let them steer their own course.

Argh! But there again I say: Sexism, Schmexism. It isn't (for me) about begrudging the ladies anything. It's about wondering if there are indeed men who feel reticent to bring up any issues or would feel more comfortable having a similar type situation for themselves. Some rumbled, so I posted to table it and see. As far as I am concerned, the fact that women now have their own space is completely independent of this.

The only issue I was interested in opening up is this: Is there some truth in this? Are there in fact a group of men that don't feel as at ease opening up all of their concerns to the general shared space? Is this sentiment something that is in fact true of both sexes to a degree? Is this just some sort of miffy grumbling? I don't know. I wanted to find out. I posted to do so. It's troubling to me to think that it may indeed be just pointless grumbling. It's also troubling to me, however, to have this or any similar type of concern dismissed completely out of hand. If I perceive any faction saying that they might feel better served by some sort of change or restructuring, I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt first and table it to see.

EDITED: Or "D. The possibility of that option wasn't recognized before. "

I refuse to be maligned for posting this thread or posing the question. I would do so again in a heart beat. If you look above at the original post, I also asked if there were other areas anyone could think of where a new forum or restructuring might serve this site well. The one I mentioned was HIV and Aging. Lo and behold, Joe Killfoile was posting the same type of thing at almost the exact same time. That one is off and running with support behind it. If you don't think you have a need for something like this type of forum, say "No thanks" and move on. Resorting to cries of sexism or images of knuckle-dragging apeism is really just of form of invalidating others who might genuinely be interested. There is a part of me that can understand why some of these folks are reticent to step up and express interest when they know they're going to get subjected to that.

At this point, though, I am getting weary of it personally- because I don't have a vested personal interest in it. I was just throwing it out there because I think that is always the right thing to do- discuss and evaluate.

And Drew, I really and truly hope you aren't trying to call me sexist. This gay man DOES sympathize with the women's need to do their own thing. And I have EVERY bit of faith in the power of women to steer their own course. Hell, I often wonder if perhaps I have MORE faith in women's capabilities in that department.

As a practical matter, I'm wary of balkanizing web forums more than necessary, because once you start down that road sometimes it is difficult to control. That's really my only feeling. So if we decide to do this let's not get carried away beyond maybe a couple new forum sections.

I was not calling anyone sexist, however in a sexist society, we all carry that guilt. I was just trying to sensitize to this issue.

Perhaps if I re-frame my concerns in terms of feeling comfortable posting private issues, gender has NOTHING to do with the fact that I am concerned about sharing personal things on a public forum, where there is a history of member abuse, as well as complaints about the INCIVILITY of postings and threadiquette of a few or how things can build and detonate.

Thunter, I am not trying to squash debate or invalidate your thread. With all due respect, I was sharing a perspective. Please know in the interest of debate there is nothing personal or disrespectful. I hope you understand bro

My post may have been a bit loud though, but like a little poke. I am feeling feisty, I guess I better get my ass to the gym...

What might be more important to note, as we men huff and puff with our profound thoughts on the subject...is how elegantly silent the women remain.

Be it known that if their new forum was not already established, had I heard a similar rumbling from them about needing their own space, I would have posted the same thread to table that discussion as well.

OK, I know I am putting in too much face time here, but running off of Dachs post, I think it is equally important in the midst of our concerns for gay men's health issues and our comfort to ask- have we done enough over the years to think about and post about things that women would be interested in or would want to participate? Perhaps we hold some of the blame for their needing their own space if we begrudge such a change??

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I was out of the country and my schedule has been intense.

Be it known that if their new forum was not already established, had I heard a similar rumbling from them about needing their own space, I would have posted the same thread to table that discussion as well.

I know you would and I'm not putting you are your thoughts down. I'm just doing a very bad job of trying to put a societal point to this whole discussion...the same way I think Drew was...plus you made Sam cry.

I know you would and I'm not putting you are your thoughts down. I'm just doing a very bad job of trying to put a societal point to this whole discussion...the same way I think Drew was...plus you made Sam cry.

I made Sam cry? Yipes!

Truth is, kids...I am soo very ready to blow this thread right now. I've done plenty to try to get this particular subject opened and aired. If anybody really cares that much to get something aired, here it is...feel free to take the reins and go with it. My permission to take this thread wherever you might want it to go. Otherwise, let's go talk about something more interesting, ok? I've tapped out far more keys on this subject than I ever had a mind to at the start! It's taking me away from my usual dish!