Sort of a piggy back on the last suicide topic, but this one specifically for those who are incarcerated. Should suicide be an option available to those in prison? If someone's life is essentially destroyed, or they have no hope of seeing the outside of a prison, should suicide be available to them?

At 5/21/2010 9:00:24 AM, innomen wrote:Sort of a piggy back on the last suicide topic, but this one specifically for those who are incarcerated. Should suicide be an option available to those in prison? If someone's life is essentially destroyed, or they have no hope of seeing the outside of a prison, should suicide be available to them?

Not DIY sucides, that would corrupt the precious organs that need to be harvested from them.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

At 5/21/2010 9:00:24 AM, innomen wrote:Sort of a piggy back on the last suicide topic, but this one specifically for those who are incarcerated. Should suicide be an option available to those in prison? If someone's life is essentially destroyed, or they have no hope of seeing the outside of a prison, should suicide be available to them?

It already is an option - you can kill yourself if you please, just be sure to do it in a secluded spot.

Should it be a real option? Well, I don't think so. The purpose of imprisonment is to inflict a punishment on criminals. Giving them the option to kill themselves kind of defeats the purpose.

Either way, would the prisons do it? Hell no. The state and the private companies which run these prisons don't want to be responsible for giving inmates the option to kill themselves, simply because of the liabilities involved.

At 5/21/2010 9:00:24 AM, innomen wrote:Sort of a piggy back on the last suicide topic, but this one specifically for those who are incarcerated. Should suicide be an option available to those in prison? If someone's life is essentially destroyed, or they have no hope of seeing the outside of a prison, should suicide be available to them?

It already is an option - you can kill yourself if you please, just be sure to do it in a secluded spot.

Should it be a real option? Well, I don't think so. The purpose of imprisonment is to inflict a punishment on criminals. Giving them the option to kill themselves kind of defeats the purpose.

Either way, would the prisons do it? Hell no. The state and the private companies which run these prisons don't want to be responsible for giving inmates the option to kill themselves, simply because of the liabilities involved.

You mean someone could get killed?Your other point is less clear. The point is to punish them and not let them have a luxury like death? It would be a net gain for society as the price of keeping them in prison would be eliminated and they would be removed as a potential threat from society. Lastly, despite their incarceration they still have the decision over their body (or should in my opinion), unless it interferes with other's basic human rights.

Well, obviously, but someone could get killed with their sanction and under their watch, which presents some liabilities. I mean, do you really think the prison wants to have legal blame for inmates offing themselves? They already do in some cases - this will open the door more.

Your other point is less clear. The point is to punish them and not let them have a luxury like death? It would be a net gain for society as the price of keeping them in prison would be eliminated and they would be removed as a potential threat from society. Lastly, despite their incarceration they still have the decision over their body (or should in my opinion), unless it interferes with other's basic human rights.

Oh, absolutely. They have a right to do whatever they so choose with their body, within the bounds of the prison system and their incarceration. But for the prison to actively and positively hand over the right of suicide is a different matter. I'm not saying I disagree with it 100%, but I'd stop short of saying that the prison should actively give the choice. It's the same as my stance on suicide in general; you can't legalize it, and you can't criminalize it. It's both an act of violence and an act on personal rights at the same time.

Well, obviously, but someone could get killed with their sanction and under their watch, which presents some liabilities. I mean, do you really think the prison wants to have legal blame for inmates offing themselves? They already do in some cases - this will open the door more.

Your other point is less clear. The point is to punish them and not let them have a luxury like death? It would be a net gain for society as the price of keeping them in prison would be eliminated and they would be removed as a potential threat from society. Lastly, despite their incarceration they still have the decision over their body (or should in my opinion), unless it interferes with other's basic human rights.

Oh, absolutely. They have a right to do whatever they so choose with their body, within the bounds of the prison system and their incarceration. But for the prison to actively and positively hand over the right of suicide is a different matter. I'm not saying I disagree with it 100%, but I'd stop short of saying that the prison should actively give the choice. It's the same as my stance on suicide in general; you can't legalize it, and you can't criminalize it. It's both an act of violence and an act on personal rights at the same time.

Personally, i'm not necessarily advocating it, but just putting it out there for discussion. To me there would be some different ethical considerations that the state would have. However, as a devil's advocate, it needn't be promoted, but simply an option without any further consequences. Currently if someone is on a suicide watch their belt and shoe laces are removed. Maybe if someone is expected to attempt suicide little is done to stop or dissuade him or her.

The ancient world accepted suicide as an option for the disgraced, why not us?

I am pro-death penalty, apart from the problem that no human court is infalliable. People generally know the truth of their guilt or innocence. Besides, if you dont rights over your own life what do you have rights over?

My only concern is the preservation of the deceased organs for transplants.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

At 5/21/2010 9:50:05 AM, innomen wrote:Personally, i'm not necessarily advocating it, but just putting it out there for discussion. To me there would be some different ethical considerations that the state would have. However, as a devil's advocate, it needn't be promoted, but simply an option without any further consequences. Currently if someone is on a suicide watch their belt and shoe laces are removed. Maybe if someone is expected to attempt suicide little is done to stop or dissuade him or her.

And then if they succeeded to kill themselves on suicide watch with the purposely-neglected tools, then they'll get hell from family members and advocacy groups. It would question the purpose of a suicide watch in the first place - why have a suicide watch then you're allowing them the tools to kill themselves under your watch?

At 5/21/2010 9:24:53 AM, Volkov wrote:Should it be a real option? Well, I don't think so. The purpose of imprisonment is to inflict a punishment on criminals. Giving them the option to kill themselves kind of defeats the purpose.

Punishment for the sake of punishment is stupid and cruel.

Punishment for deterence...OK

"Punishment" for prevention... Ok.

Punishment for the sake of inflicting some kind of pain... cruel

"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."

At 5/21/2010 9:24:53 AM, Volkov wrote:Should it be a real option? Well, I don't think so. The purpose of imprisonment is to inflict a punishment on criminals. Giving them the option to kill themselves kind of defeats the purpose.

what's the purpose?

punishment?

"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."

At 5/21/2010 9:24:53 AM, Volkov wrote:Should it be a real option? Well, I don't think so. The purpose of imprisonment is to inflict a punishment on criminals. Giving them the option to kill themselves kind of defeats the purpose.

you're saying Suicide's a way out of punishment.

It also happens to be a sure way of preventing them from commiting crimes again...

so what's the point of punishment???

to prevent/deter people from commiting crime?... or to inflict a righteous punishment on wrongdoers.

"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."

What are they in there for? To keep them away from civil society and pay for their crimes with their freedom and their time. I never advocated physical pain as far as I'm aware, and if you simply mean "mental anguish," well, that's just silly.

What are they in there for? To keep them away from civil society and pay for their crimes with their freedom and their time. I never advocated physical pain as far as I'm aware, and if you simply mean "mental anguish," well, that's just silly.

Is that not punishment?

inflicting mental anguish for the sake of inflicting mental anguish is cruel.

"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."

At 5/21/2010 10:23:55 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:you're saying Suicide's a way out of punishment.

It also happens to be a sure way of preventing them from commiting crimes again...

It also happens to be full of liabilities and weird ethical questions and standards that there is no simple answer to. It also ends up being a very permanent thing, while there end up being quite a lot of suicides for non-permanent sentences.

If this is your line of thought, you might as well follow Mirza's line of thought and start chopping off limbs or installing capital punishment for littering. It will, after all, prevent them from doing things again...

I guess it comes down to personal opinions about the justice system. Some think its intention is punishment (to punish for crimes) and some people think it's to prevent criminals from being able to harm society further.

At 5/21/2010 10:23:55 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:you're saying Suicide's a way out of punishment.

It also happens to be a sure way of preventing them from commiting crimes again...

It also happens to be full of liabilities and weird ethical questions and standards that there is no simple answer to. It also ends up being a very permanent thing, while there end up being quite a lot of suicides for non-permanent sentences.

If this is your line of thought, you might as well follow Mirza's line of thought and start chopping off limbs or installing capital punishment for littering. It will, after all, prevent them from doing things again...

shut up dude.

Littering =/= violent bloody murder

I didn't even express an opinion on suicide in jails

I'd rather see the most, recurringly, violent individuals put down outright... not given any choice in the matter.

And I would be for chopping off fingers and the like for stuff like rape.. and heinous assault.

I wouldn't be for righteous revenge though... where you seek to make someone suffer b/c they did "wrong".

I'd be for making it so they wouldn't do wrong again.

"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."

Their victims (or the families of their victims) expect to see prisoners suffer inside jail, and the longer the suffering the better.

By killing himself a prisoner escapes this punishment.

I've never understood the point of 'Justice' in this context. Why should we punish someone for a crime if it would lead to no greater benefit? If the benefit is for a victims family to get some sick pleasure about seeing someone's life be destroyed, then all we are doing is piling hatred onto crime.

At 5/21/2010 10:30:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:I'd be for making it so they wouldn't do wrong again.

I disagree with the extremes you go to, but that's fair - I get the feeling. However, giving the legal option of suicide in prisons is giving them a choice, and opens up the system to many liabilities. Nevermind the fact that suicide is basically thought of as a mental disorder - suicide in and of itself is a permanent thing that a temporary institution like a prison cannot provide under any ethical standards known. At least not active promotion of it as an option.

Their victims (or the families of their victims) expect to see prisoners suffer inside jail, and the longer the suffering the better.

By killing himself a prisoner escapes this punishment.

I'm not really understanding this line of thought. Death is an easier sentence than imprisonment? Life in prison is a harder sentence than death? I think if a family member was brutally murdered and the family was looking for the harshest of sentences, the death penalty would be okay with them. I doubt that

Their victims (or the families of their victims)

would say death would be too soft, and i am pretty certain that the guilty would opt toward imprisonment as well.

At 5/21/2010 10:26:37 AM, Volkov wrote:If this is your line of thought, you might as well follow Mirza's line of thought and start chopping off limbs or installing capital punishment for littering. It will, after all, prevent them from doing things again...

My thought on this is far more logical than yours. It will save lives, prevent crime, be much less cruel overall, create a safer society, and prevent much grief.

But since you rather go with emotions over logic in this case, there is no need to try to convince you of the above.

Don't know about America but in the UK basic precautions are taken for prisoners judged to be likely to attempt suicide. No belts, no shoelaces, no conveniently placed pipes or light fittings as well as almost constant observation for some prisoners.

My eldest brother took an intentional overdose a few months before he became incarcerated and he had screws checking up on him at ten minute intervals all night.

One place I work is at a secure mental health hospital. A kid from there I was teaching DJing to saved up his money from his parents to buy turntables and a mixer but then had them confiscated for fear he could manafacture a weapon from them and harm himself.

I think it's often a good idea to try and prevent self harm and suicide but of course if someone is determined enough, then they will always find a way.

honestly, i would worry more about family members of the "suicides" suing the state for either allowing them to go through with it, or for the suspicion that prison guards actually killed the inmate and then attempted to make it look like a suicide. i am guessing that is what the state is worried about too (as opposed to the welfare of the criminals :P)

At 5/21/2010 10:26:37 AM, Volkov wrote:If this is your line of thought, you might as well follow Mirza's line of thought and start chopping off limbs or installing capital punishment for littering. It will, after all, prevent them from doing things again...

My thought on this is far more logical than yours. It will save lives, prevent crime, be much less cruel overall, create a safer society, and prevent much grief.

But since you rather go with emotions over logic in this case, there is no need to try to convince you of the above.

Because living in a society where the citizens are afraid to do things for fear of getting their extremities lopped off is the greatest thing ever.

When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown