Allyssa has made 1657 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

I believe the flying steeds of the Nazgul were more pteradactilic (sp?) or bat-like. They did not breathe fire or collect hoards of gold, or as far as we know, have scales. They do not appear to have been intelligent - they do not speak like Smaug, nor do they seem to have the dragon sense of vanity. But I suppose they could have been related if both were reptiles.

Smaug was a nasty piece of work, but he served his own purposes more or less. He did not serve Sauron, but was possibly allied with him.

Grondmaster has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Quote:And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil.

So only the wings sound draconian, I also believe it was a member of the pterosaur (Greek for "wing lizards") family, the flying reptiles of the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods of history.

Sam has made 15 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Isnīt it from LotR...?

I think that Smaug wasnīt the last dragon of M-E. I think that somewhere in the far north of M-E was some dragons alive....They were maybe not interested in men and other peaople...they just wanted to live in peace, when Sauron was destroyed...I donīt know I just think it so

Valedhelgwath has made 4242 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Weren't the Fell Beasts Morgoth's corruption of the Eagles, or is that where he got his dragons from?

During the Second Age many dragons lived in the Withered Heath and the Ered Mithrin, but I think most of those had died by the Third Age. Smaug was described as being the greatest dragon of his time, which implies that there were other less powerful dragons still around.When the dwarves were kicked out of Erebor in TA 2770 by Smaug, for some reason they went into excile rather than reclaiming their mines in the Ered Mithrin. To me, that says they were still afraid of dragons.

Iago has made 87 posts and is from and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Smaug was not the last dragon, though he was the last of the great ones:

Quote:It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.

(The Shadow of the Past, FoTR)

It doesn't say how many there are, it just say they don't have that good ol' fire...

Grondmaster has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Sam: Okay, I can accept that. After all, Middle Earth entails only a smallish part of the planet, and there are many places in the mountains of the north and east where they could be biding their time.

Cirdan has made 163 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Damn straight! Sam, I too am a full believer in the continued existence of dragon kind

Quote:

"...but there were Dragons in the wastes beyond..."

"...So the rumour of the wealth of Ereborspread abroad and reached the ears of the dragons, and at last Smaug the Golden, greatest of the dragons of his day, arose and without warning came against King Thror..."

So asuming that there were more than one dragon alive in Thror's time then due to there longevity, surely those others that are implied still exist somewhere.... Firedrakes, dragons and all!

But, if so why do they not come to the call of Sauron at the approach of war? hmmm!

Sam has made 15 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Would they get gold, if they helped Sauron?...I donīt think so. Sauron donīt give any "presents" except for the Nazguls... ..maybe? Normally if a dragon had a big heap of gold, it just lies on it and sometimes get out for some food....am I right? If you can understand what I mean...

42 has made 503 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Hey Sam! I think Sauron would have given the dragons gold to help him, he did send prisoners for Shelob to eat. Also what would gold be worth to him when he was going to rule the world? I like to think that the dragons weren't really evil, just overly possessive(a bit like Sauron really....)

TomBombadillo has made 2771 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Yep, I think you're right there. They're too much like Sauron, and they could already do whatever they wanted to do, so why would they care? And did Sauron actually call for them? I must have missed that too then.

Chikakat has made 735 posts and is a Hobbit from Buckland and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

maybe Sauron just figured that it wasn't worth the effort it would take to get them to help him out...Smaug was the last of the great dragons, so the others were probably just little weakling things that might not have been of much help anyhow.

Valedhelgwath has made 4242 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

The early dragons were bred by Morgoth, and no doubt trained too. By the TA, if there were any dragons left, no doubt they had all gone pretty wild. Like chikakat said, they might not have been worth summoning if they were likely to kill as many orcs as they were elves.In addition to this, the Withered Heath is a long way from Mordor. Sauron's reach was not limitless, particularly as he was concentating a lot of effort into finding his ring and also the three elven rings, plus still rebuilding Barad-dur. No doubt if the ring had not been destroyed, and the war had dragged on longer, he might well have gone looking for other powerful allies.

Cirdan has made 163 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Yeah the dragons are a long way away, but then so are the easterlings. I think he would have tempted them with gold (In the way he offered the Dwarves the remainder of the 7 rings back if they aided him) to come south. They would almost certainly have come with plunder in vast amounts (i.e Erebor and the Dwarven realm) and could have acted as guardians in the same way as Shelob (assuming that Sauron could have had no control over dragons) and also he would have saved having to send any portion of his armies north to Dale.I dont reckon Sauron gave to much of a damn how many Orcs would have got toasted if the Elves got wacked too! but I guess the point is mute cos theres no evidence to suggest he tried.........hmmm now if I was the Dark Lord....................

Tyrhael has made 1187 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Sauron called for dragons' aid?

Aught else here may be hastily written and therefore incorrectly located, but bear with me:

in a trailer for Peter Jackson's Return of the King interpretation/movie I saw (or think I did) dragons flying overhead, and fighting. My hither question is, would there be a chance of this happening in Tolkien's world? Would the dragons fight in the second Great War? (The War of the Ring, which originally was Tolkien's preference for the title of RotK; the editors overruled him to name it Return of the King.)

Additionally, just imagine that dragons DID fight in the Great War (II)? Would they most likely be on the side of Sauron, of Aragorn and the forces of good, or for their own purposes? What is the chance of this happening? Why or why not? From whence would they come?

And, lastly, were fire-dragons (urulóki) still around in the Northwestern Middle-Earthern region; so if the dragons in RotK shot flames from their gapings maws of mouths, would it be 'politically incorrect?'

P.S. Today's totally random comment is... Mount Doom was a stratovolcano, and therefore had steep sides, erupted lava and cinders, and produced ash and deadly pyroclastic flow. So... Frodo and Sam were actually in more danger than they knew. Pyroclastic flow travels at about 300 mph; it's made up of compressed tephra and would kill the two Hobbits if Gwaihir hadn't gotten them first. :P

Virumor has made 3567 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Quote: in a trailer for Peter Jackson's Return of the King interpretation/movie I saw (or think I did) dragons flying overhead, and fighting. My hither question is, would there be a chance of this happening in Tolkien's world? Would the dragons fight in the second Great War? (The War of the Ring, which originally was Tolkien's preference for the title of RotK; the editors overruled him to name it Return of the King.)

Additionally, just imagine that dragons DID fight in the Great War (II)? Would they most likely be on the side of Sauron, of Aragorn and the forces of good, or for their own purposes? What is the chance of this happening? Why or why not? From whence would they come?

There are dragons in the wastelands north of the iron mountains. Smaug is one of the dragons who came from there. Read the appendices to LOTR or UT.

Originally, Sauron intended to attack Lothlorien and Rivendell first using Smaug, instead of attacking Gondor. But Bilbo and Co stopped his brilliant plan.

About the possibility of dragons in ROTK : if this is the case, then PJ really is the lousiest fake Tolkienite ever. What a lousy adaptation.

And all Tolkien dragons are EVIL, made by Morgoth so they would most likely join Sauron, if he were able to convince them to join him. Dragons are lazy buggers, so he wouldn't succeed, probably.

So it is kinda impossible for dragons to appear in ROTK, if we look at it from a Tolkienite view, but of course PJ could put in dragons in his ROTK movie, which would follow the books really well and would be totally logic. (ironic input)

HobbitHomie05 has made 406 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

I looked up Smaug in this book about M-E and this is what it said Smaug- Dragon of the ered Mithrin, the greatest dragon of his time. In 2770, hearing of the wealth of Erebor, Smaug destroyed Dale and drove the Dwarves away from the Kingdom under the mountain. For nearly two hundred years he gloried in his treasure, until in 2941, diturbed and angered by Thorin and Company, he attacked Esgaroth and was slain by Bard the Bowman. In addition to the various honorifics bestowed on him by the frightened Bilbo, Smaug was known as Smaug the Golden. I suppose that doesn't help much!!!!

Grondmaster has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

What you took for Dragons in PJ's movies are the fell beasts of the Nazgul that from a distance look like the wonderful dragon in Dragonslayer, especially there long wings and tail. I thought PJ and WETA did a good job with these in LotR: TTT.

If I remember correctly, Tolkien's description of the fell beast (as it was threatening King Theoden and Snowmane) was more naked-bird-like with bare pinions, but no feathers.

While I agree about the nature of Orodruin scientifically when compared to our world, it had to be just about constantly erupting in order for the red fire to be seen so often and thus the explosions and pyroclastic flows were not produced very often and the darkening sky couldn't have been caused by pumice ash because no one was subjected to the depths of its groundfall.

I think Tolkien transported Mauna Loa type eruptions to Mount Doom instead of Mt. Etna or Mt. Saint Helens type eruptions. The path lead around the mountain, therefore the recent molten lava must have flowed through a tube to the southwest.

Valedhelgwath has made 4242 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Up until the mid-Third Age there were several large drakes living in the Grey Mountains (Ered Mithrin) and the Withered Heath to the North of the mountains. These drakes included Smaug and Scatha. At the time Dwarves were delving rich mines in these mountains, and they became the focus of several dragon's greed.

Scatha was eventually slain by Fram of Eotheod (who was later himself slain by Dwarves when he kept their gold). Smaug sought richer treasures to the south and sacked Erebor. The rest of course is history.

UT gives us some insight into the story behind the Hobbit, and from it you can see Gandalf actually manipulating Thorin and Co, and getting Bilbo involved as well to bring Hobbits into the action too. Reading this section, I actually saw Gandalf as quite a manipulative person, who was using Thorin and the Dwarves for his own purpose (all be it to remove Smaug from the North so that Sauron could not use him to attack the Northern realms).

HobbitHomie05 has made 406 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Thanks for helping me clear that up!!! I'm still going through the process of understanding everything in the works of J.R.R. Tolkien!!! But if Smaug wasn't the last dragon you'd think they'd have a dragon in LOTR. I can just picture Saurumon ordering a big old dragon to fin frodo an destroy him!!!! But maybe I'm wrong because I don't know if it's possibly for Saurumon to do that! But he is the most powerful wizard i belive!!

Valedhelgwath has made 4242 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Quote:I'm wrong because I don't know if it's possibly for Saurumon to do that! But he is the most powerful wizard i belive!!

While Saruman was certainly powerful, and head of the Istari, compared to Sauron he was nothing. The way Sauron managed to corrupt him through the Palantir stone shows us that.

At the beginning of LotR he manages to overcome Gandalf the Grey. Personally I believe Gandalf was more powerful at this stage than Saruman, but Saruman had the upper hand because Gandalf still believed him to be his friend. When they were sent to Middle Earth the Istari were forbidden to openly use their powers, particularly for their own ends. Saruman rebelled against this directive, whereas Gandalf didn't. Certainly as Gandalf the White, Gandalf was more powerful.

I think Galadriel would give Saruman a good run for his money too while he is in the guise of a man, but not in his true Maiar form of Curunir.

Quote:I can just picture Saurumon ordering a big old dragon to fin frodo an destroy him!!!!

I don't think Saruman would be powerful enough to control a dragon. My reason for saying this is based on the fact that Gandalf did not go and destroy Smaug himself when he considered him to be such a problem. I think dragons tend to have powerful wills and are not easily controlled by anyone. Even Glaurung, the father of dragons managed on occasions to break free of Morgoth's control and go on his own rampages. Basically, even if you are powerful enough to control a dragon, they are not the sort of creature you can send off on a mission to find an individual person. They are more attuned to marching out with an army and destroying a town or too.

HobbitHomie05 has made 406 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

He can controll those big scary orcs and humongous troll like creatures (like the ones that open the gate in LotR:TTT). But is that because he made most of them from the lava and he was kinda like their mother??? Well if saurumon can't control a dragon, could sauron possibly at the form he was in (just an eye)????

Virumor has made 3567 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Quote:He can controll those big scary orcs and humongous troll like creatures (like the ones that open the gate in LotR:TTT). But is that because he made most of them from the lava and he was kinda like their mother??? Well if saurumon can't control a dragon, could sauron possibly at the form he was in (just an eye)????

Sauron didn't create anything living, he isn't able to do that. Morgoth made all those foul creatures.

And Sauron wouldn't be able to control a dragon too, since he didn't make them - Morgoth could do it because he made them. Sauron would only be able to convince them to join him, and even then the dragons would do pretty much what they want : burn down a village here, kill some people there, etc.

Quote:While Saruman was certainly powerful, and head of the Istari, compared to Sauron he was nothing. The way Sauron managed to corrupt him through the Palantir stone shows us that.

At the beginning of LotR he manages to overcome Gandalf the Grey. Personally I believe Gandalf was more powerful at this stage than Saruman, but Saruman had the upper hand because Gandalf still believed him to be his friend. When they were sent to Middle Earth the Istari were forbidden to openly use their powers, particularly for their own ends. Saruman rebelled against this directive, whereas Gandalf didn't. Certainly as Gandalf the White, Gandalf was more powerful.

I think Galadriel would give Saruman a good run for his money too while he is in the guise of a man, but not in his true Maiar form of Curunir

Well, in the books Saruman and Gandalf didn't have a duel like in the movies, so Saruman didn't really 'defeat' Gandalf : in the books Gandalf says 'they took me away' so it's safe to assume that Saruman sent some of his Uruk-Hai to imprison Gandalf.

Anyway, i think Gandalf the Grey is less powerful than Saruman the White, but Gandalf is the most wise of the two. Saruman isn't the head of his order for nothing. But Gandalf the White is certainly the most powerful.

And i don't think Galadriel would be able to trounce Saruman : she may be the last of the Exiled in Middle-Earth and lived in the light of the Two Trees, but i think any Maia would have creamed her in no time.

There's still the huge difference between the Ainur and the children of Eru.

Valedhelgwath has made 4242 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Quote:And i don't think Galadriel would be able to trounce Saruman : she may be the last of the Exiled in Middle-Earth and lived in the light of the Two Trees, but i think any Maia would have creamed her in no time.

That's why I differentiated between Saruman in man guise, and Curunir the Maiar. The Maiar who became Istari were immediately weakened the moment they took on flesh. Saruman further weakened himself in a similar manner to how Morgoth had done, becoming more earthbound by disseminating his own power. By the end of the book he is little more than a spiteful old man, able to be slain by Grima Wormtongue. We do not see many of Galadriel's powers, but I'd not underestimate them. She did after all use them to pull down Dol Guldur.

Tyrhael has made 1187 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Whoa, we don't even have a Character thread on Morgoth?

This is what I can say:Morgoth, or the Black Enemy of the World, was a rogue Vala. He was also called Melkor, He Who Arises In Might, and Alkar, the Glorious. And he was Sauron's master. The Dark Power of the North. Ok, I don't think that really helped lol.

HobbitHomie05 has made 406 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

yah I'd have to agree with you, that was kinda just a jumble of words!!!! But, WOW, sauron has a master??????? I thought he was the most powerful thing in Middle Earth!! Is Morgoth mentioned in the movies??? because I'm only on The Knife in the Dark in the FotR. Wow I really got to brush up on my knowledge!!!! but I am only 11 years old and already has been obsessed with LotR since I saw the first movie!!

Valedhelgwath has made 4242 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Quote:who's Morgoth???

Okay my young Hobbit friend, a brief history of the world is needed here.

In the beginning there was Eru (also known as Iluvatar, or the One). He was the One true God equivalent to, well, God I suppose.

From his thought he created the Valar and Maiar, who were sort of demi-god type spirits. There were 15 Valar (who were similar to Greek/Norse type Gods) and Melkor (later called Morgoth) was the most powerful of them.

Together Eru, the Valar and Maiar made a great music, and from it the vision of the World was created from the Void. The Valar and Maiar then entered this vision and set about physically creating it. Melkor, however, rebelled against the other Valar and set about destroying everything they created. The Silmarillion covers this epic struggle.

Sauron was Morgoth's Lieutenant. He was only a Maiar, but one of the strongest of them. When Morgoth was finally defeated at the end of the First Age, and expelled to the Void, Sauron took over as the chief nasty. As by then the Valar had pretty much retired permenantly to the Undying Lands, that left Sauron as a pretty much undisputed champion bad guy.

To assist the good guys of Middle Earth, around SA1000, the Valar sent five Maiar back to Middle Earth in the form of old Men. These Istari included Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and two Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando).

Other Maiar still living in Middle Earth incuded Tom Bombadil (although nowhere does it say that Tom is a Maiar, and other people have other theories on who he may be) and his wife Goldberry. The Balrog was also a Maiar corrupted by Melkor, and Shelob was the daughter of Ungoliant a great spider-demon/maiar. To protect the trees from the axes of Dwarves, Yavanna (the Valar of the forests) summoned Maiar spirits into certain trees and they became the ents. Likewise, Manwe (Valar of the skies) summoned spirits into the forms of the Giant Eagles. Most probably Melkor did the same thing to create the Dragons and his werewolves.

Hopefully, that will give you a bit of insight into what we are talking about.

Grondmaster has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

Quote: So Morgoth was the most powerful guy until he died then Sauron took over. Did the forging of the rings happen after Morgoth was destroyed or after??

Yes, to your former question, except Morgoth didn't die, he has been imprisoned in the Void by the Valar since the end of the First Age, about 6500 years before the adventures of Bilbo and Frodo.

The rings were forged in the vicinity of the year 1600 of the Second Age, about 4900 years before Bilbo and Frodo.

The Ring was lost, soon after Isildur cut the finger from Sauron's hand at the end of the Second Age, about 3000 years before Bilbo leaves the Ring to Frodo.

Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin leave the Shire for Rivendel in 3018 of the Third Age, 17 years after Bilbo leaves the ring to Frodo.

NOTE: The number of years given above have been rounded-off to provide a general sense of the expanses of time that took place between these events. For the actual dates Tolkien provided, see Appendix B, found at the end of RotK.

HobbitHomie05 has made 406 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 31st December 1969 (07:00pm)

I'm so sorry you guys have to deal with my stupidity!!! well I'm not going to finish the trilogy and after that the silmarillion for a long while now, virumor, but when I do I'll let ya know!! j/k But for the most part I understand about Morgoth so we can continue with our conversation!!

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