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Since one's tastes are the ultimate expression of subjectivity, and discussing the degree to which one likes a particular show is all about taste, I think this should go without saying. So far, I'm not even sure if anyone in this thread has tried to present their reactions as some sort of objective fact.

I never quite got that impression, but the discussion seemed to me to be heading down that path -- where people were being defensive rather than understanding, and are more interested in expressing their opinions than in reaching a compromise. It seems that people are beginning to "talk at each other", and not listen.

In particular, I find that you're doing a sort of subtle but not terribly subtle nudge when you make comments like "an unconventional approach to visual imagery (especially one that doesn't really work)", "the melodrama part of it didn't work", and persisting in your use of the word "mediocre" in spite of the fact that you know that none of these have "gone around the table" (i.e. they've all already been challenged, assumably not to your satisfaction). The "rest assured that I'm quite familiar with ef's style" comment also seems a bit suspect, given that this too hasn't gone around the table (it's a masked appeal to authority, like saying "trust me, I know what I'm talking about". Says who?). This all makes your comment quoted above seem a bit disingenuous, as I'm not under the impression that you don't in fact realize you're continuing to be contrarian to "[stimulate] interesting conversation". While I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of your point of view, I don't find this overall approach in discussion to be terribly clever (or, in fact, terribly interesting).

In short, I'm having a hard time determining, by your words and actions, if you're really here to discuss the merits/demerits of the show, or just to tell us why you find it mediocre and have others react. That subtle difference is what "presenting subjective opinions as objective fact" is all about.

I never quite got that impression, but the discussion seemed to me to be heading down that path -- where people were being defensive rather than understanding, and are more interested in expressing their opinions than in reaching a compromise. It seems that people are beginning to "talk at each other", and not listen.

I'm sort of curious here, how does one reach a compromise of opinions? Does that mean everyone decides to come to a consensus, or to simply agree to not talk about a contentious point any more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

In particular, I find that you're doing a sort of subtle but not terribly subtle nudge when you make comments like "an unconventional approach to visual imagery (especially one that doesn't really work)", "the melodrama part of it didn't work", and persisting in your use of the word "mediocre" in spite of the fact that you know that none of these have "gone around the table" (i.e. they've all already been challenged, assumably not to your satisfaction).

Given that this thread is largely about hashing out opinions, do you really think that it's necessary to preface all of my statements with "I think...", "I feel...", "I assume...", and the like? If you insist on it, I'll do so, but I think that it's pretty clear that all of my posts are statements of opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

The "rest assured that I'm quite familiar with ef's style" comment also seems a bit suspect, given that this too hasn't gone around the table (it's a masked appeal to authority, like saying "trust me, I know what I'm talking about". Says who?).

The full statement was "If your comment is directed at me, then rest assured that I'm quite familiar with ef's style", and it was a direct response to "It seems to me people often try to take a show they don't happen to like for whatever reason and convert it into one that is something they are more familiar with". Whether this is true should be apparent given the other titles I've brought up in reference to ef. It'd only be an appeal to authority if I had phrased the statement to mean that I had superior knowledge of the subject at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

In short, I'm having a hard time determining, by your words and actions, if you're really here to discuss the merits/demerits of the show, or just to tell us why you find it mediocre and have others react. That subtle difference is what "presenting subjective opinions as objective fact" is all about.

Then how do you think I should go about discussing the merits/demerits of the show?

__________________

The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...

I'm sort of curious here, how does one reach a compromise of opinions? Does that mean everyone decides to come to a consensus, or to simply agree to not talk about a contentious point any more?

It's called the "let's agree to disagree" technique. It's a favourite course of action for some people I know in this thread, like Kaoru Chujo and relentlessflame, and a good policy IMHO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Given that this thread is largely about hashing out opinions, do you really think that it's necessary to preface all of my statements with "I think...", "I feel...", "I assume...", and the like? If you insist on it, I'll do so, but I think that it's pretty clear that all of my posts are statements of opinion.

I don't think it's necessary per se, but people have been flamed for less (I should know; I've been guilty of being a culprit ). We humans have intelligence and reason, but in discussion forums like this, emotions can be an unsure thing. It might be a good idea to stroke each others' fragile egos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Then how do you think I should go about discussing the merits/demerits of the show?

Then how do you think I should go about discussing the merits/demerits of the show?

For what it's worth, I'm extremely impressed that you asked the right questions. I'll put my reply in spoiler tags, since it's going off on somewhat of a tangent...

Spoiler:

If your goal is to get into a sincere discussion about the merits and demerits of the show's approach, I would suggest that, primarily, you need to withhold judgement. If you begin a discussion with "I didn't like this because of that", it's centered around you and your opinion and not around the show. That instantly puts people who did like the show on the defensive and you tend to get less valuable insight from the conversation. It's especially worth noting that this is not a "debate team" approach, where there's an "argument", teams representing "pro" and "con", and the goal is to convince the "undecideds". And the reason why this approach should be avoided is tied precisely to the rhetorical question you asked: "how does one reach a compromise of opinions?" The answer is, of course, you can't.

The approach in discussion should reflect the desired outcome and, to that end, the means should be inclusive and understanding -- so that everyone can see where each other is coming from without feeling under threat. (Maybe, as Ascaloth said, some of this is just about stroking egos, but more fundamentally this is just being humble. And, it goes without saying, this can only work if you don't in fact believe that you're "god's gift to anime insight" -- most people don't, but there are some... ) It's safe to assume that, first, "the show is what it is", and secondly, "the show is what it is for a reason" (or, in other words, it was made to be this way on purpose). I think these are important starting points because you're giving the creators (and those who liked things as presented) the benefit of the doubt -- again, withholding judgement.

When you begin from that starting block -- withholding judgement, understanding that others may have a valid point, respecting the work as a unique piece worthy of consideration -- then it becomes less about "expressing opinions", and more about understanding the show itself and the varied perspectives on it. You may even -- no, rather you should expect to -- leave the conversation with a broader perspective and greater understanding than when you entered it. And likewise, others will learn from you and your point of view and will understand that there's value in our differences, and in our varied points of view.

In other words, it's not about you or me, it's about the show. If you want to sincerely discuss it, you need to humble yourself and accept that your opinion is just a reflection of who you are and where you came from -- it's not right or wrong, and it isn't (well, shoudn't be...) set in stone. Then, with that willingness to learn from others, we can have a serious conversation about the show's merits and demerits and all end up ahead. It all starts with the simple decision to withhold judgement and treat everyone's opinion equally.

...Well now, that ended up being all philosophical. If you followed this far, I hope you're starting to see where I'm coming from at least. My interest truly is to have a sincere conversation about the show, because I find it very interesting and think that we could all learn something from it.

Well, I'm still not sold on any idea that this show is actually badly made. And Goshushou Ninomiya-kun? Sorry, but I had a long hard laugh at that comment, 4Tran. Granted, Ninomiya was trashy fun, but that just strikes me as pretty disingenuous. And as relelentlessflame has connotated, I think it's veering too far to go from one branch of opinion to another as if that is an accurate analogy for all involved.

Really, the last ten pages or so of this thread was a ton of little jabs at this show about the things we KNOW aren't fully fleshed out in the show (namely the characters and controversial style of plot development). I don't think there really needs to be an argument about that aspect at all. Like I said countless times, it's about which part of the show one appreciates. If you're in for the empathy towards characters/characterizations or the development of the plot, I can see how one can see it in 4Tran's way. In terms of pure, Korean Drama style melodrama (Minami-ke's NINOMIYA-KUN drama style), I still don't know of any anime drama that puts forth the amount of continuous flow of words and expressions just flowing from the angst that comes from romantic involvement (well, maybe except for Bokura ga Ita).

Again, to me, ef is easily the best drama of the year. That is all I really have to say. I can really defend it forever. I'm serious.

I like your discussion. It makes for a good read every now and then. Please continue!

Oh, and may I kindly ask the readers of this thread for hints to shows similar in making to ef, or other shows that you liked last year (for that matter)? I would be very grateful for any PM I receive!

Thats nice, at least someone is enjoying it I, on the other hand, don't. I get the feeling it is steering towards the direction of arm waving from both parties, with everyone trying to pass their judgment as somehow more objective, more sincere and as a better approach to analyzing the show while trying to subtly hint at the other party implying that their approach is lesser for some reason. This no longer seems to be about the show, but about everyone trying to subtly prove the superiority of their opinion. If there is nothing to reach in a discussion besides trying to determine which opinion is more "flawed", then i think simply agreeing to disagree is for the best. Thats just me though.

I like the discussions too! I always stop in this thread everyday to read the discussions. I find it very intelligent and informative as well. Every person has their own opinions and point of view/perspectives. And each person has something to say.....

I love EF and I like to hear from everyone their opinion about it. That's why I always find this forum interesting and informative.

The breadth of my viewership is admittedly fairly limited (you've watched and ranked ef below 10 other fall 2007 anime? I couldn't even name 5)

Yup. And about seven more beneath it; and that's not counting the one-offs like Candy Boy, Kino no Tabi and the Macross Preview. I watch way too much anime.

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Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Well, I'm still not sold on any idea that this show is actually badly made.

I'm not trying to sell you on the idea, so I suppose that's good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

And Goshushou Ninomiya-kun? Sorry, but I had a long hard laugh at that comment, 4Tran. Granted, Ninomiya was trashy fun, but that just strikes me as pretty disingenuous.

And what's so strange or disingenuous about liking Ninomiya-kun more than ef?

Spoiler for relentlessflame:

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

...Well now, that ended up being all philosophical. If you followed this far, I hope you're starting to see where I'm coming from at least. My interest truly is to have a sincere conversation about the show, because I find it very interesting and think that we could all learn something from it.

That's all well and good; and you've laid out what you'd prefer not to see, but statements like "reflect the desired outcome" and "be inclusive and understanding" are awfully vague outside of not disagreeing with other people's points (which I haven't done a lot of in this thread aside from correcting SuperKnuckles), or not holding an unpopular opinion (which I find to be an absurd concept). In any case, isn't it disingenuous to withhold the fact that one has already formed an opinion on a particular show?

As for "the show is what it is", what's that supposed to mean, aside from restricting ourselves to discussing a work the way it would happen in an English class? To explore the different actions, symbolism, themes, imagery and the like? Given that this is largely a discussion thread concerned with the posters' reactions, such an approach would seem to run counter to what the medium is suited for.

Oh, by the way, you might want to look over the context where I wrote phrases like "an unconventional approach to visual imagery (especially one that doesn't really work)". You'll notice that I had already specifically phrased them as my opinions; hence I think your complaint is unwarranted. And while you might not like my use of "mediocre"; the word precisely describes what I feel ef's quality to be.

__________________

The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...

In any case, isn't it disingenuous to withhold the fact that one has already formed an opinion on a particular show?

Spoiler:

Well, I suppose it would be, if one thinks of one's opinions as more than impressions that can be influenced by futher discussion, reflection, or thought. The whole point of "withholding judgement" is not about what you post, but about how you think. In other words, if your mind is set and you're just here to tell us what you think and get reactions, that's not a discussion about the show, it's a debate about your opinion. Those aren't the same. And since you'll never reach a compromise of opinion (and you certainly can't change someone's "first impressions"), it's endless and, in my opinion, fairly pointless. And so, with that said, I'm out.

Really, the last ten pages or so of this thread was a ton of little jabs at this show about the things we KNOW aren't fully fleshed out in the show (namely the characters and controversial style of plot development).

........

Again, to me, ef is easily the best drama of the year. That is all I really have to say. I can really defend it forever. I'm serious.

Does it really matter if he(I use the pronoun purely on a statistics/chance basis ) has brought up points about the show that he didn't like? After all, this is a discussion forum, not an appreciation forum.

It also must be said that I disagree with his point of view, but I respect his right to having a differing opinion.

I have to know as well, why do you feel the need to "defend" the anime? It's something I've encountered a lot on this forum and I genuinely don't understand it. Why does it matter if someone has a different opinion than your own? I find that providing the opposition isn't being abusive or bagging it for the sake of causing trouble there shouldn't be a problem.

__________________

'Tis all a Chequer-board of Nights and Days
Where Destiny with Men for Pieces plays:
Hither and thither moves, and mates, and slays,
And one by one back in the Closet lays.
--Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

I can perfectly understand why you think this way, and if that's the case, people really shouldn't bother trying. All I'll say is, that there have been times where I have succeeded in pursuading others to see my point of view, and there have been times where they have convinced me to accept their view as better analysed and insightful one than mine. But this is just me though, since I have experienced discussion with other people who are open enough to recognise my points as more insightful one than theirs (and vice versa). If you haven't experienced this, then yes I can see why you don't see much point in this.

Quote:

This isn't something that can be "countered".

And this is why arguments can be countered. Ever participated in a debate or saw one? For example, consider a debate where one side is arguing for 'tomorrow is better than today' and the other is arguing for 'today is better than tomorrow'. To be blunt, there is no objective answer. You can go on about how advancing technology makes our life more comfortable, or how our environment is being destroyed and our social interaction decaying from internet and what have you. The point is in trying to pursuade others with more convincing arguments and you can do this by countering the points made by a side. Environemntal degradation? C'mon sif we notice any difference. Better lifestyle? Wars are still going on, people dying of hunger here and there, rapes and murder still countless. Sure, each side probably won't back down, since well, it's their job to defend their position to their death even if they agree with the other side (a mindset of most internet posters for some sadly warped reason) but at least the listeners (and in this case, forum viewers) can listen to their arguments and see if that can shed more light to their understanding of the show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fweakin

I find that providing the opposition isn't being abusive or bagging it for the sake of causing trouble there shouldn't be a problem.

Exactly. The guy wasn't even trolling, he was backing up his argument, even giving comparisons to other works (which of course, people then used them to criticise his way of thinking which I thought was ridiculous).

If you can offer some interesting perspectives on why you think Suzumiya Haruhi is mediocre, it might spark some interesting discussion (as long as people don't misconstrue the meaning of "mediocre"), but I doubt it'll be a big deal. On the other hand, if you just claim that it's over-hyped, then I doubt it'll accomplish very much.

Though there would surely be an army of people to fight against that view and it will all end in a horrible mess like here...
Come to think, I don't even know what you guys are debating on anymore

And what's so strange or disingenuous about liking Ninomiya-kun more than ef?

That just sounds more than off place in an ef thread. No less a show that isn't exactly well made to any extent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fweakin

Does it really matter if he(I use the pronoun purely on a statistics/chance basis ) has brought up points about the show that he didn't like? After all, this is a discussion forum, not an appreciation forum.

It'd be nice if the show wasn't getting drummed on every single point. It's unnecessary that's all.

Quote:

It also must be said that I disagree with his point of view, but I respect his right to having a differing opinion.

I do too, but the points just seems overdone and redundant. Also, considering that this is an ef thread, you'd think there'd be more respect for the material than the constant bashes, but that's how I see it. Beyond that, I have a problem with the whole approach of 'I don't like this compared to that' type of argument that just goes beyond the subjectivity of the show itself. But hey, I tend to like talking about ef when I'm in an ef thread.

Like I said many times before, this show has some elements of a love it or hate it type of boldness to its approach. That's all there is to that. It's almost a matter of fact. I just don't understand how some discussions spiral into nitpicking.

Quote:

I have to know as well, why do you feel the need to "defend" the anime? It's something I've encountered a lot on this forum and I genuinely don't understand it. Why does it matter if someone has a different opinion than your own? I find that providing the opposition isn't being abusive or bagging it for the sake of causing trouble there shouldn't be a problem.

The general negative atmosphere perhaps? It's the same thing in Myself;Yourself and Gundam 00 discussions nowadays. So some peeps have problems with the shows. Boo hoo. I get it, they aren't perfect shows in my book either. But sometimes it starts becoming the beating of horses. It's not more as 'defending' it rather than trying to counteract all the negativity and constant stream of criticism as I see it. What's the wording? Constructive criticism?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Though there would surely be an army of people to fight against that view and it will all end in a horrible mess like here...
Come to think, I don't even know what you guys are debating on anymore

That's what you tend to get when you keep making constant disingenuous arguments, sidetracking and borderline sneering comments towards a show that is generally liked within a single thread, no less a community, and you expect to back that up with subjectivity. I don't know. Call the kettle black why don't you.

So yeah, some people dislike or at least 'says' they like the show but put up a laundry list of complaints while others don't really seem to mind. You can always throw a fire into a bush too. I'm starting to think it's a matter of forum etiquette here. Then again, that sort of comes with the territory of a show that borders between constant criticism and applause. As far as my criticism of the criticism goes, I don't know how much further I can comment on that. But yeah. ef is an amazing show. I can repeat that again and again in an ef thread no less. I would think that would make sense.

I mean I love criticism as apparent in this entire discussion, but I'd rather put a positive spin for a show that I actually love a lot but also because it is a rare and truly a beginning effort for an animation studio. If a movie director that only does action movies does a comedy and it ends up being a flawed but very enjoyable experience, I would take the side of positive criticism. Even if it's criticism, I wouldn't hold it against it and say it's 'mediocre', 'forgettable' or what have you. I mean, wow. That was the same point I made about Air when it first aired. Lot of the same criticism, lot of the same leaning towards what the shows did for me.

All that aside, I'd rather get to the discussion about the show itself beyond the constant criticisms. You would think all that would subside AFTER the show is done.

PS- I can't get over how much I'm loving the ED of the final episode. Sometimes I wonder if Shaft remixes their songs way too much (there is what, at least four versions of Euphoric Field already? Maybe five), but I can't say that I don't appreciate it. It'd have been more fun if they could've put in the Kei version of Euphoric Field in some episodes. They don't do this while they put in all sorts of weird/plain-out-bad OP/EDs for Negima!? Oh well.

It'd be nice if the show wasn't getting drummed on every single point. It's unnecessary that's all.

Ah, so this is an appreciation thread after all ... oh, wait. Somehow this seems to be heading in a direction i don't appreciate. I like ef quite a bit; it started on somewhat shaky grounds but in the end it made an impression on me and i appreciate the bold approach they took with the show. I like the end result quite a bit. But at the same time i can fully accept that someone didn't like the show, and due to its specific type of presentation it is not hard to see why. 4tran has made his point and has backed it up by solid explanations, and even if i don't agree to all of his points (characters not being sympathetic being the first one) i can still respect said opinion because the person has obviously put some thought behind it.

Yet i am getting the impression that negative opinion of the show is not welcomed here at all. And that is not true ...at least it shouldn't be. As sad as it is, the Haruhi example was a good one to point out the problem that tends to exist. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about a show, and if someone takes time to add substance to his thoughts there is no need to make it seem such an opinion is not wanted here.