Celia (in particular) -- there are a few other Islamic sayings that might be quoted here.

"Allah, Aqkbar" is becoming a quite popular one -- frequently used as you plunge a jet aircraft full of unbelievers into a world trade centre for example, truck bombing in Iraq, blowing yourself up in Israel or whilst slowly decapitating a prisoner you have 'captured' say a young female TV reporter or a Christian aid worker,truck driver or anyone else who serves your purpose of "honouring God"

"Convert or die" was another popular saying shortly before the wholesale slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Armenians, Indians, Jews, Christians and sundry others over the bloody history of Islam -- the comparable carnage in the name of every other diety does not diminish the culpability of the purveyors of the 'will' of the other "Gods"

Try to understand ,THERE ARE NO GODS -- you are responsible for your own wrongdoing, barbaric cruelty and slaughter -- recourse to some 'holy text' that condones or justifies reaL EVIL is merely seeking some sort of dispensation to do what you know to be wrong -- this applies to implementing the SES version equally well (Shout's point ) and 'spreading your bets' by worshipping ALL gods is no solution either - nor is it some sort of demonstration of 'tolerance' or greater wisdom.

Islam is utterly intolerant (recall the recent 'almost execution' under the 'reformed' Afghan government of a convert to Christianity ?) and Anton 'worshipping' with Muslims AND every other religion would brand him as both Kafir and "Munafiq" -- meaning essentially 'hypocrit' and one who 'outwardly believes but conceals disbelief' -- grounds for decapitation.

I stand by my facts and context -- also "Free Thinker" , the SES 'teachings' are a conglomeration of bits from many different 'faiths' and not only refect the beliefs of each but in toto comprise a religious world view including the right to impose this on others, use deception where neccesary (even quoting Plato on this ) and claim divine sanction in doing the work of the 'absolute' authority -- if that involves a bit of damage to the kiddies or a righteous slaughter or two then so be it.

That is where theistic and atheistic belief systems differ (maybe John Lennon "Imagine" ...there's no heaven, no religion too.....) would be a better musical inspiration than Tears for fears.

(Just a bit of humor from a Rhodesian I once met -- that came about when the "Kafir" bit came up -- they have a joke about a Zebra that needs to know whether he is a black Zebra with white stripes or a white zebra with black stripes ... relies on the black American pronunciation and hard to convey in print but the other saying that seems appropriate about ' ex members ' of religious cults (in this case) they say "Man, he has totally changed, he used to be a black Zebra with white stripes now he is the exact opposite;- a white zebra with black stripes"

Unless you have really woken up to the inherent deception and falsity of every religion you have changed nothing to walk out of one into another (or into many )

The conception of higher intelligence or purpose in the universe is nothing to do with religion especially ancient prescriptive ones.

Quote, "
Jihad watch board vice president Hugh Fitzgerald discusses the strangeness of the phenomenon of black Americans converting to Islam, given Islam's record on slavery black Americans should think again about converting. Islam does not permit music .... music having to do with religious worship is absolutely forbidden . When black Americans convert they are throwing out all the gospel music (and jazz) ,doubly condemned in Muslim eyes.

When black Americans {also White Australians ,(me)} dismiss Christianity for the sake of Islam because they are fooled into believing that Islam is somehow the correct vehicle of protest they manifest ignorance of the whole horrible Arab slave trade.

That trade began earlier and ended (where it did end ) later than the European slave trade . Also it was , because it involved the castration on site of so many black African children, much greater in scope.

The mortality rate was something like 90% , so that only 1 out of 10 black male children seized and castrated by the Arabs actually made it to the slave markets of Riyadh,Cairo,Baghdad,Damascus,Algiers,Istanbul and similar centres of Islam . see "The Hideous Trade" by Jan Hogedoon."

end quote .

It seems castration not only 'quietened' unruly slaves but ensured they did not pollute your racial purity -- European exported slaves were kept "whole" for breeding purposes -- close to Africa it was easier to procure more slaves than to let them breed .

"Slavery,Terrorism and Islam " by Peter Hammond www.christianlibrarybooks.co.za seems to have a lot of historical record about the 'fruits' of Islam and the contemporary threat posed by ignorance,false beliefs about Islam or mis directed "tolerance" to it's basic tenets (whose 'immutable' texts still permit and encourage murder and slavery in the name of Islam.

The acquisition of a nuclear weapon by Iran or another 'holy war' Jihad etc in the cause of religios zealotry might bring home the relevance and threat of support for these dangerous religious beliefs.

Apart from all out war the ongoing individual damage to the lives of forced adherents to these cults is the other cost of not standing up to organized ignorance

The description of a blighted family and personal life by Celia (and of course Shout and the other unwilling victims) is probably a fair account of daily family life under religious control in whole countries like Afghanistan and Iran that "embrace"(and enforce) state religion.

The SES system seems to amount to a 'private'and 'voluntary' version of this life control for the same sort of reasons and absurd aims.

Is that what we really want ? Was the Taliban regime or Sharia law somehow a 'perfect' society ?(or Hindus e et al ) Does not religion lead to such enslavement to dictatorial control and manifest evils like slavery,slaughter and loss of freedom to think,question or take responsibility ?

If you believe in some higher purpose to life how can so many wrongs possibly lead to any truth or betterment of mankind ?

My earlier post was put up at 3.20 am this morning and probably should be editted a bit -- likewise I had not looked at any of the websites just given when I posted about the truth of Arab slave trading or the real meaning of Kafir and the significance for current belief -- all matters disputed by Anton . I don't think that my facts were wrong as claimed by Anton and the more significant issue of religious culpability cannot either be flippantly dismissed or denied.

GB - no, causation is itself only a working presumption which,like gravity ,seems to work pretty well much of the time .

It COULD be that the daily beheadings by persons claiming a certain religious affiliation (Islam) and ,to a man, yelling "Allah Aqkbar" is a purely coincidental happening -- like throwing 100 heads in a row with a normal coin .

Celia et al,

I don't think any humanist, athesistic or non religious movement or nation has engaged in organized murder (war or terrorism etc ) which tends to support the correlation AND causation hypothesis . Communism has been more attacked than gone on the attack and even the proxy wars it got involved in were against theistic or tribal forces (eg in Africa, for Egypt, corrupt and catholic Vietnam etc -- look at the history of conflict in Vietnam for example ; after defeating the Japanese in Indo China the occupying British forces put armed Japanese soldiers back on the streets to "maintain order" until the return of the French colonizers to again rule their minions in their own country ( any doubters, I will post the book that covers this period with pictures as proof )

More people died on the Eastern front than the entire rest of the second world war combined (Burt Lancaster narrated an excellent doco on the war in the east that gives the real picture ) Russia was trying to defend itself from the ideologies of fundamentalist Christian aggression ,and to protect others as allies, as much as anything else -- it was not seeking to enslave the west as such but undoubtedly did a huge amount of wrong on the countries of Eastern Europe out of a desire to avoid any future wars against it .

Most of the "godless commie bastards" that were used to incite hatred during the cold war had no hate for the West at all but a not entirely unjustified distrust and fear - look at the US treatment of that huge threat Cuba.

The pages of every holy book are soaked in blood -- both in the text and from the hands of those who waved them in war -- that includes the tales of bloodshed in the Hindu holy texts -- remember Oppenheimer, "behold I am become death, Shiva, destroyer of worlds "

Go back to the opening 'lessons' ostensibly taught as the credo of the school of philosophy ( 'do unto others" etc ) and the supposed enlightened and seemingly humanist agenda and then compare it to the harrowing actual testimony of their real behaviour and outcomes.

Not a good match ? What then is the good of any religion if it basically deceives people (maybe after giving them a false sense of security first) and takes their time and money in the meantime -- it is undeniable, realistically, that the SES/SOP IS a religion and this fact is not in dispute with Anton or Celia -- the only dispute is that whether religions and subsuming your own intellect to them are, or are not, good things.

I can see no real basis to not believe that religions DO encourage their members to oppose the non members, up to the point of committing murder in the name of the religion (and usually encouraged by the assurance that they will magically appear in heaven,nirvana etc with or without 72 virgins added for good measure ) -- they are not 'live and let live" by their very nature -- it is SO important that you are converted and thereby 'saved' and if not we will have to kill you .

So, why should I acquiesce in any' procedure' that threatens the mental health of society , creates a threat to life and security and subdivides the community into warring factions ,distracts the community from improving it's physical infrastructure and communal quality of life etc etc
- the dark ages were the most religiously fervent in European history and stagnated the advance of the leading civilization for hundreds of years whilst everything went into building churches, funding monastries, dunking witches and waging crusades ;-- until heretics like Galileo came along and actually shed a little light of reason -- the enlightenment.

Why go back to the theocratic past or try to justify or glorify it now that we (should) know better . Maybe some on this forum might try reading one of our more iconoclastic journalists for a different view of political correctness on some of these issues - try www.heraldsun.com.au/andrewbolt . Incidentally the fact of shocking widespread sexual abuse within aboriginal communities is just being revealed by the chief legal officer of the Territory where most of this covered up crime is taking place -- make no mistake that the same rosy fiction of the noble (and preternaturally wise) savage has been the reason why this sort of thing has gone on without any opposition -- a 'dark age' of the mind is a certainty if the hard wong gains of the rational enlightenment are discarded in favour of mysterious and fashionable Eastern cult religion.

Note Celia's "response" has been deleted in the last few minutes -- my last lines in particular will not be understood in their absence.

There is little or nothing about the SES that is unique and the same reasons for throwing off religious dogma in general apply whether or not you have studied the minutae of each in huge detail -- by which time you might have lost any perspective anyway.

ross nolan wrote:I can see no real basis to not believe that religions DO encourage their members to oppose the non members, up to the point of committing murder in the name of the religion (and usually encouraged by the assurance that they will magically appear in heaven,nirvana etc with or without 72 virgins added for good measure ) -- they are not 'live and let live" by their very nature -- it is SO important that you are converted and thereby 'saved' and if not we will have to kill you.

I disagree. Here's a quote from Gandhi (Young India: January 19, 1928):

I came to the conclusion long ago that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu. But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian.

I would not be surprised to learn that the essence of this statement, that the purpose of religion is to make anyone a better person, is common to all religions. (Note that the converse is not implied: to become a better person does not mean you must belong to a religion.)

Ross, you may find it beneficial to learn more about the religions which you wholeheartedly characterize by your interpretations of certain elements. For instance, you seem to have little understanding of the significance of Shiva within Hinduism, nor do you seem to understand that murder is not condoned by any religion even though some may murder in its name. In addition, I believe religions are dynamic systems which are often deeply intertwined with culture, so it's difficult to condemn one without the other.

ross nolan wrote:GB - no, causation is itself only a working presumption which,like gravity ,seems to work pretty well much of the time .

Celia et al,

I don't think any humanist, athesistic or non religious movement or nation has engaged in organized murder (war or terrorism etc ) which tends to support the correlation AND causation hypothesis . (?).......

ross nolan wrote:- the dark ages were the most religiously fervent in European history and stagnated the advance of the leading civilization for hundreds of years whilst everything went into building churches, funding monastries, dunking witches and waging crusades

Quite the opposite. The monasteries were often important centers of learning during the missnamed "dark ages".

Last edited by leon on Thu May 18, 2006 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

The advance had wind enough when there were people blowing in its sails. As Leon pointed out, various monasteries are singularly responsible for preserving literature of all sorts. Ross, I get the impression you watch 5 minutes of the Discovery channel and match it to your agenda.

Why have the Ravesis deleted their posts? Celia has (so far) deleted everything back to April 13. Anton has deleted everything he ever wrote on this board.

Does anyone have insight as to why this happened, apart from the obvious? That's a real shame. Ranting and raving will only get so far - Celia and Anton genuinely tried to express themselves here without overly antagonising anyone, despite being told they were not allowed to. If they've been run off the boards by egomaniacal ideas of "worth", the instigators should be ashamed, as should the Ravesis for being so easily cowed.

Bella , Leon eta al -- Is "the obvious reason" fear of religiously inspired retribution? (it might not be as obvious as you imply ) The very name of this website "Why are they dead?" refers to 'mysterious' deaths of people who were members of a quasi religious cult -- to be intimidated into sinful silence out of fear is indeed shameful .

"Being a better Christian,Hindu etc " would be OK in itself but eventually means ' a better Christian THAN a Hindu' or better Hindu than a Muslim ... which led to the huge slaughter at Indian partition which was itself considered to be the only 'solution' to the mutual antagonism between two religions that we are being assurred are so "loving,tolerant,warm and cuddly "(sic)

Gandhi of course died at the hands of a religious zealot for purely religious 'reasons' -- had it been by a Muslim probably millions more would have been killed -- it was the experience in South Africa that made Gandhi a believer in the rights of man and non violent political means as far as I know -- had he been "traditional" Hindu he would have used violence , same goes for Nelson Mandela (Zulu military organization even impressed the British ) -- both appealed to reason and not religion .

I do not know the motivation of the Khmer Rouge - I suspect there is some sort of animism or Shinto like ancestor worship (or worship of the "ancient ways") that they admired and wanted to return to -- hence year zero.

The SES has a similar reverence for the "old" wisdom -- the older the better based on some belief in 'lost' perfection from earlier times (the Garden of Eden thing, Gilgamesh etc 'pre flood' golden age -- a lot of cults pick up on this (including JWs )

You must at least concede that they had a belief in the "decadence" of the present Western system that caused them to want to eradicate all traces of it (and kill everybody to leave only their own kind ) in order to restore the ancient "Khmer" kingdom .

Somebody else might have more knowledge of that -- to me it is enough that they were basically "backward" (looking) to match my thesis.

Communism was forward looking in contrast -- much of Stalin's killing was settling old scores (he was Georgian and felt oppressed ) -- the danger of putting any individual in power is shown by the reality of the "rule by fear" that ne instituted (reminder of being ruled by fear even in this present example -- if you give power over you to others then you have shared the guilt for what follows )

Socialism sounds great in theory but did lead to mass loss of life in both China and Russia -- was it inherent in the theory ?

North Korea is definitely ancestor worship,animism and the cult of the great leader -- the leader is 'divine' which begins to look like a religion-- Buddhism is probably the most harm-less religion by leaving out most of the hallmarks of religions -- it is the closest to humanism

Bella, I don't even have Discovery channel -- do you ridicule their documentaries ?

Your "preservation of knowledge" in monastries is only very partially true -- a lot of the transcription of Biblical texts was carried out on parchment previously preserved from earlier times and carrying really priceless treatises on geometry and mathematics from the Greeks .

(The palimpsest phenomenon -- scrape off the 'heathen ' writings and hand illuminate another bible -- no new knowledge generated at all ) incidentally the Muslims sacked and burned the library at Alexandria - the greatest act of intellectual vandalism in history .