On 12/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>I've said it before and I'll say it again. I prefer that my belayer uses>a self-locking belay device (ie GriGri) for trad, sport, aid - whatever.>The reason is I like to know that if the belayer looses control (lets go,>gets hit on the head by a rock, gets distracted, falls asleep) that the>device has a backup. The off chance that a bit of trad will blow by being>shocked loaded by a GriGri is negligible sideffect for me. I generally>climb routes with bomber gear, and double up as much as I can. It is very>very rare for me to ever blow bits of trad gear.

Yeah, I figure the human error failure rate of a GriGri is no worse than with an ATC and you get the benefit of a belayer backup (as long as you are climbing with reasonably experienced belayers.)

But climbers will keep sticking GriGris in beginners' hands, get lazy with instruction and assume all's sweet.

On 12/11/2013 Snacks wrote:>Yeah, I figure the human error failure rate of a GriGri is no worse than>with an ATC and you get the benefit of a belayer backup (as long as you>are climbing with reasonably experienced belayers.)

How do you figure that? The "automatic" nature of a GriGri is much more likely to lead to complacency. Given the number of GriGri accidents that I keep hearing about this seems accurate.

If you are worried about human error in your belay with an experienced partner then I'd get a new one. It really isn't that hard to keep a firm grip of a rope for 10-15minutes.

Agreed - learn with a figure of 8 and learn to keep you belay hand down. A grigri is great if you know what you are meant to be doing with it - they are also great for top belay / abseil / roped soloing.

I use my cinch pretty much anytime I have a single rope - sport, trad, guiding, top belays, bottom belays, whichever. I can't remember anyone blowing gear whilst I've been belaying them with it and it's definitely great from belaying your second from the anchor, just as you would use a reverso. Which is my other belay piece of choice. I don't know why anyone is buying old style atcs anymore. Sure, there are occasions when it's still better to belay off your harness in a traditional manner, but they aren't that common - the vast majority of the time I can get a high belay in, or one back from the cliff edge enough to belay straight off. No belay piece however is going to replace have a range of skills to adapt to each prospective belay.

On 12/11/2013 Capt_mulch wrote:>Agreed - learn with a figure of 8 and learn to keep you belay hand down.
I've never understood why people like that device. Even back in the seventies when people thought they were the ants-pants, I loathed them. Twist the rope horribly when abseiling and useless for belaying.

On 12/11/2013 patto wrote:>Unless I am placing RPs and microcams then I couldn't care less about a>soft catch on trad. All I ask for is a reliable catch.
You do actually want a soft catch. According to that link from Beal, if you pair the wrong rope with a Gri-gri it's quite easy to get a scenario where the impact force on the top piece is 14 Kn, which exceeds the MBS of most trad gear. Most wires are only rated to 12 Kn, BD stoppers only to 10. The medium to large Camalots to 14Kn.
The only things rated above 14 Kn are slings (22Kn) and some brands of nuts on Dyneema (17Kn).

This thread is up to nearly 20,000 views! Has to be getting up there as an all time record for Chockstone thread to close to it.

Apart from the fact that someone was really really hurt which is a real bummer, it's a great thread and a great discussion with good learnings for all of us. i.e. it's not cool to fall when climbing and even worse its not cool and totally unacceptable to not belay correctly/catch someone if they fall no matter what belay device is being used!

I personally like gri-gris for single pitch climbing trad and sport too, my only criticism is that some people don't feed the rope out quick enough if the rope is on the upper end of the thickness (11mm).

On 12/11/2013 kieranl wrote:>On 12/11/2013 patto wrote:>>Unless I am placing RPs and microcams then I couldn't care less about>a>>soft catch on trad. All I ask for is a reliable catch.>You do actually want a soft catch. According to that link from Beal, if>you pair the wrong rope with a Gri-gri it's quite easy to get a scenario>where the impact force on the top piece is 14 Kn, which exceeds the MBS>of most trad gear. Most wires are only rated to 12 Kn, BD stoppers only>to 10. The medium to large Camalots to 14Kn.>The only things rated above 14 Kn are slings (22Kn) and some brands of>nuts on Dyneema (17Kn).

Those cases Beal presents are worst case scenarios. Those are calculated values not real world values. In practice we'd see far more gear and body failure if that was the case! At 14kN, you would be receiving 8.75kN on your pelvis! In practice I've seen 2kN and 3kN rated pieces take falls. I'm sure many others here have too.

On 12/11/2013 patto wrote:>Those cases Beal presents are worst case scenarios. Those are calculated>values not real world values. In practice we'd see far more gear and body>failure if that was the case! At 14kN, you would be receiving 8.75kN on>your pelvis! In practice I've seen 2kN and 3kN rated pieces take falls.

Am I missing something : if the runner is getting a 14kN hit I would expect the climber to be getting 7kN, equal and opposite forces and all that.
I accept that the Beal figures are worst-case scenarios but still worth taking note of. A good way to avoid encountering a worst-case scenario is to try to not meet all the pre-conditions.

On 12/11/2013 kieranl wrote:>On 12/11/2013 patto wrote:>>Those cases Beal presents are worst case scenarios. Those are calculated>>values not real world values. In practice we'd see far more gear and>body>>failure if that was the case! At 14kN, you would be receiving 8.75kN>on>>your pelvis! In practice I've seen 2kN and 3kN rated pieces take falls.>>Am I missing something : if the runner is getting a 14kN hit I would expect>the climber to be getting 7kN, equal and opposite forces and all that.>I accept that the Beal figures are worst-case scenarios but still worth>taking note of. A good way to avoid encountering a worst-case scenario>is to try to not meet all the pre-conditions.

You're missing the effect of friction Kieran, the climber gets the rough end of it. I'm not sure exactly what patto was using for the coefficient of friction of loaded rope through a carabiner, but the values I've seen published range from 30-40%

3kn on the climber is 5kn on the last biner which is 2kn on the belayer. That's in a one biner system which is not representative of what happens when you're 100 feet above a belayer, having placed half a dozen pieces on a.wondering route. In reality the belayer doesn't reall matter, as long as the rope goes tight.

Fun fact....the munter has about as much slip as a gri gri, which is a lot less than an atc.

On 12/11/2013 pecheur wrote:>You're missing the effect of friction Kieran, the climber gets the rough>end of it. I'm not sure exactly what patto was using for the coefficient>of friction of loaded rope through a carabiner, but the values I've seen>published range from 30-40%
Thanks, that make sense. In any case it seems the lesson is to go for a rope with a low maximum impact force regardless of the belay device used or style of climbing.

On 10/11/2013 vwills wrote:>Well he should have checked back because he asked me to PM him about returning>our gear, which I did when he posted. Still no reply, as there hasnt been>when I have sent a message via fb, or the Katoomba police made the trip>to collect it for us 2 months ago.>>I dont expect a thankyou card- and I have been waiting patiently for gear>without hassling - but I would think he could return our gear. A few quickdraws,>long slings and locking biners aren't a massive amount of gear, but as>we took the trouble to assist him and the paramedics, cut a path to the>winch site, set up safety lines, help carry him to the winch site and then>coil his gear, carry it out in the dark, (after all other personnel winched>out) and return it, I would hope he could be kind enough to send our gear>back to us.

Hey VWillis

Facebook messenger hid your message I had to go into settings after seeing a post on FB and saw your message to which I responded with my contact details. I still have your gear quick draws and slings. There are no locking Berbers and some of my gear is also missing it sure where it went?

I'm sorry if you feel I am ungrateful I am not you have no idea what your help meant to me and I am eternally grateful. I just been reading this forum I found today I did not know how much of a conversation it has sparked. My email is daniel27hg@gmail.com

Send me an email and I'll get your gear to you. When the police came to my house they told me they were after my partners gear. Hence why they did not get it

Just an update After fighting for 2 years I was able to keep my foot. I have chronic arthritis in both ankles and walk like a penguin. I have just started climbing again this year. Have major trust issues though

Up at Kaputar for Easter, will email you with our address. Good to hear you are getting out and about and hopefully things are looking up for you. Yes the FB messenger thing catches me out, I did see a reply, but we were overseas at the time, so thanks. Like everyone says, it would be instructive to get some lessons about the belayer issues that led to the accident if the police ever concluded their investigation.
Not surprised you have trust issues.