I am a life-long Sox fan and have weathered through all of our up and down periods and winning the 2005 WS is the greatest sports event in my lifetime even trumping the 1985 Bears SuperBowl win. After 2005 we owned this town and could do no wrong and and although 2006 was dis-appointing things still looked-up. we all know for the most part winning and losing goes in cycles and at some point we would need to re-build/tool in order to be a serious contender again. I thought we had a good chance going into 2007 but the injury bug beat us and the rest of the league caught onto our MR staff. I think Kenny did a good job and does a good job but I think were really stub our toes is on how this organization communicates to the public and the perception it generates, remember perception is essentially reality in the minds of the public/fans/media. The Ozzie stuff for the most part is meaningless and has little impact but the actions of our exec team (KW and JR) always paints us in a "bad light". This whole NTC issue makes absolutely no practical or business sense and makes us look stupid no only with our fans but with our players and in baseball in general. The negative PR impact of KW's posturing leaves a bad taste in everyone minds (fans and players) in how the Sox deal with players and are to so inflexible even with special players like MB. This is not a money issue as the Sox spend the money. How can they not see this how this has a negative impact on the organization and eventually the ticket window? How can they be so stubborn and stick to a rule that in this case means nothing since MB is 2 years away from being 10/5? This is the stuff that really frustrates me about KW/JR. Sticking to stupid principles that need to evaluated on a case by case basis. As a business you need to be open to change or you die. The Sox will survive as they always have but they make it so hard on themselves. The NTC clause in this case will cost the team in players wanting to come here and loyalty of current players. I know money is a ruler of all but this whole thing is so frustrating as a fan to watch play out. In the end I will be a Sox fan no matter what but ala the 1994 strike and the White Flag trade this will be piss-off the fringe fans and paint a "negative picture" of the Sox. This fringe-fans help fill the park and provide the revenue stream to be a contender year in and year out a. The 2005 WS will have a residual effect at the gate for 3 more years if the Sox are re-building but why does it seem we are the only organization that makes constant PR blunders!!!

jabrch

07-02-2007, 11:08 AM

This whole NTC issue makes absolutely no practical or business sense

That's just not true. It makes perfect sense to not want to give up control of your roster to a player before he gets 10/5 rights. I wouldn't give mark 4/60 and full NTC with all the other needs this team has, and the organizational pitching depth we have.

In fact, I wouldn't even think about it. Get me top tier prosepcts for him, or draft picks for him, and let's use the 14mm to get guys in here who score runs.

barryball

07-02-2007, 11:12 AM

How does it the NTC "tie up the roster" if you plan to build around MB? Especially since in 2 years he is 10/5? The PR impact is more costly any which way you look at it. This is even worse than saying we can't compete in the market due to salaries. MB is leaving $20M to stay and we can't give him an NTC for two year?

kevingrt

07-02-2007, 11:14 AM

That's just not true. It makes perfect sense to not want to give up control of your roster to a player before he gets 10/5 rights. I wouldn't give mark 4/60 and full NTC with all the other needs this team has, and the organizational pitching depth we have.

In fact, I wouldn't even think about it. Get me top tier prospects for him, or draft picks for him, and let's use the 14mm to get guys in here who score runs.

What have top tier prospects ever done for this team though or draft picks? Besides the Big Hurt, Crede turned out OK for now, Ventura was good we haven't had much. Oh and Ozzie was decent, picks and prospects haven't done much of anything for this team in the past 20 years. I guess you can think it will change with the new people running the scouting department but I don't know. I am not optimistic of our minor league squads. I am much more interested in Buehrle in a Sox uniform for four years then 3 four star prospects.

Jaffar

07-02-2007, 12:15 PM

What have top tier prospects ever done for this team though or draft picks? Besides the Big Hurt, Crede turned out OK for now, Ventura was good we haven't had much. Oh and Ozzie was decent, picks and prospects haven't done much of anything for this team in the past 20 years. I guess you can think it will change with the new people running the scouting department but I don't know. I am not optimistic of our minor league squads. I am much more interested in Buehrle in a Sox uniform for four years then 3 four star prospects.

I agree with you and Kenny has already learned that MB will not even bring him 1 top prospect since teams don't give up the farm for rentals anymore.

eriqjaffe

07-02-2007, 12:16 PM

Oh and Ozzie was decentOzzie came up in the Padres' organization. The Sox acquired him in December of 1984 in the LaMarr Hoyt trade. Ozzie was the Opening Day shortstop (and leadoff hitter(!)) in 1985 - he never saw a day in the Sox farm system.

Now you know - and knowing is half the battle!

jabrch

07-02-2007, 12:22 PM

What have top tier prospects ever done for this team though or draft picks?

That's not a good reason to avoid top tier prospects.

veeter

07-02-2007, 12:23 PM

Maggs and C Lee were pretty damn good since I last checked.

eriqjaffe

07-02-2007, 12:28 PM

Maggs and C Lee were pretty damn good since I last checked.OMG U FROGOT AARON ROWWANDDD!!!!!!

veeter

07-02-2007, 12:29 PM

OMG U FROGOT AARON ROWWANDDD!!!!!!Put him on the list too.

jabrch

07-02-2007, 12:36 PM

remember perception is essentially reality in the minds of the public/fans/media.

Then the public/media/fans should spend more time perceiving OG/KW/JR as the triumverate who lead this team to a WS win in 2005 rather than the heartless, soleless, cheap bastards who sent legends like Thomas, Fisk and Buehrle packing when their skills (Fisk), health (Frank) and demands (potentially Mark) were no longer in the organization's best interest.

santo=dorf

07-02-2007, 12:38 PM

Maggs and C Lee were pretty damn good since I last checked.
They weren't drafted by the Sox.

champagne030

07-02-2007, 12:39 PM

I agree with you and Kenny has already learned that MB will not even bring him 1 top prospect since teams don't give up the farm for rentals anymore.

Some people are having trouble with the concept that other teams are not going to give up multiple major league ready prospects with high upside to watch MB walk out of their door in 3 months.

A trade of JV or possibly JC will bring more in return than MB. And then we can still retool with the money saved from that deal.

eriqjaffe

07-02-2007, 12:41 PM

They weren't drafted by the Sox.They weren't drafted by anybody, since they didn't go to high school or college in America. They were both signed by the Sox as amateur free agents.

santo=dorf

07-02-2007, 12:43 PM

They weren't drafted by anybody, since they didn't go to high school or college in America. They were both signed by the Sox as amateur free agents.
Exactly. So they have absolutely nothing to do with high draft picks and do not belong in the discussion.

eriqjaffe

07-02-2007, 01:00 PM

Exactly. So they have absolutely nothing to do with high draft picks and do not belong in the discussion.I see your point, but the fact that they weren't subject to the draft is more an accident of birth than anything else. It's still the responsibility of the scouting department to recommend acquiring them in the first place.

thomas35forever

07-02-2007, 01:02 PM

A trade of JV or possibly JC will bring more in return than MB. And then we can still retool with the money saved from that deal.
Does that mean we could possibly sign a high-profile FA in the offseason?

eriqjaffe

07-02-2007, 01:06 PM

Does that mean we could possibly sign a high-profile FA in the offseason?Yeah, maybe Buehrle.

voodoochile

07-02-2007, 01:48 PM

Exactly. So they have absolutely nothing to do with high draft picks and do not belong in the discussion.

Well, the discussion also included trading for top prospects. Danks and Garland are two fine examples of how well that can work out.

Law11

07-02-2007, 02:14 PM

That's just not true. It makes perfect sense to not want to give up control of your roster to a player before he gets 10/5 rights. I wouldn't give mark 4/60 and full NTC with all the other needs this team has, and the organizational pitching depth we have.

In fact, I wouldn't even think about it. Get me top tier prosepcts for him, or draft picks for him, and let's use the 14mm to get guys in here who score runs.

I disagree with this.
This guy is going to get a helluva lot more on the market.
To not give him what amounts to a 2 year clause is absurd.
He is as durable as they come. How can you possibly say his NTC would tie up future sculpting of this team? You start with pitching.

Whats depth do we have? Hager? Floyd, Gonzalaz, please....
Give me a proven All-star over possible starters down the road any minute of any day of the week.

Jaffar

07-02-2007, 02:18 PM

I disagree with this.
This guy is going to get a helluva lot more on the market.
To not give him what amounts to a 2 year clause is absurd.
He is as durable as they come. How can you possibly say his NTC would tie up future sculpting of this team? You start with pitching.

Whats depth do we have? Hager? Floyd, Gonzalaz, please....
Give me a proven All-star over possible starters down the road any minute of any day of the week.

I think the other part is that Garland will most likely be gone then after 2008 after how Mark would have been basically forced out even though he was willing to take less to stay. I don't think KW can get a prospect for Buehrle that will be on the MLB roster next year either.

soxrme

07-02-2007, 02:23 PM

That's not a good reason to avoid top tier prospects.
No the reason to avoid them are the guys scouting them, the same ones who have left our farm system in horrible shape and were responsible for this grear bullpen. MB is a known quality guy much like Maddox.

soxinem1

07-02-2007, 02:24 PM

Does that mean we could possibly sign a high-profile FA in the offseason?

Keep dreaming. That didn't even happen after the World Series win. That is not in the philosophy of this ownership or management group.

Witness the Dye, Thome, and Vazquez aquisitions. The players had 2-3 years on their contracts, the options are/were favorable to the Sox, and the long-term liability is not there.

So now some expect them to sign Ichiro, ARod, or someone else to 5-7 year deals?

It ain't happenin'. In fact, Aaron Rowand, now an All-Star, will probably not be signable.

areilly

07-02-2007, 02:35 PM

What have top tier prospects ever done for this team though or draft picks?

1993 for one. Homegrown draft picks and acquired prospects took the Sox to the playoffs:

Jack McDowell - Drafted by the Chicago White Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1987.shtml) in the 1st round (5th pick Due to a 72-90 1986 season) of the 1987 amateur draft.

Robin Ventura - Drafted by the Chicago White Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1988.shtml) in the 1st round (10th pick Due to a 77-85 1987 season) of the 1988 amateur draft.

Frank Thomas - Drafted by the Chicago White Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1989.shtml) in the 1st round (http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?year_ID=1989&round=1) (7th pick Due to a 71-90 1988 season) of the 1989 amateur draft.

Alex Fernandez - Drafted by the Chicago White Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1990.shtml) in the 1st round (4th pick Due to a 69-92 1989 season) of the 1990 amateur draft.

I can't wait for another 4 year stretch run like that again!

jabrch

07-02-2007, 03:15 PM

No the reason to avoid them are the guys scouting them, the same ones who have left our farm system in horrible shape and were responsible for this grear bullpen. MB is a known quality guy much like Maddox.

That's just so untrue - in every way.

No the reason to avoid them are the guys scouting them

Those guys were the same guys responsible for 2005.

left our farm system in horrible shape

That's flat out untrue

responsible for this grear bullpen

And our bullpen in 2005

MB is a known quality guy much like Maddox.

Who? And either way, WHO GIVES A CRAP? Whomever Maddox is, or how ever good a guy he is, it means nothing to me. It has ZERO impact on our ability to scout talent.

jabrch

07-02-2007, 03:18 PM

Give me a proven All-star over possible starters down the road any minute of any day of the week.

That's not the choice you have. You have a 3.80/1.25 pitcher or some very strong prospects AND $56 MILLION

lostfan

07-02-2007, 03:43 PM

That's flat out untrue

Wait... how is our farm system not in terrible shape? It's probably in the bottom third of all MLB teams.

rdivaldi

07-02-2007, 03:49 PM

Wait... how is our farm system not in terrible shape? It's probably in the bottom third of all MLB teams.

Eh? The Sox farm system is considered to be league average by most scouting services. There are quite a few pitchers doing very well at AA and a few in the lower levels.

Instead of making wild, blanket statements you might want to do some research first.

areilly

07-02-2007, 03:51 PM

JI can't wait for another 4 year stretch run like that again!

One down, three to go...does this mean we should start lining up for our 2013 playoff tickets? :redneck

lostfan

07-02-2007, 03:57 PM

Eh? The Sox farm system is considered to be league average by most scouting services. There are quite a few pitchers doing very well at AA and a few in the lower levels.

Instead of making wild, blanket statements you might want to do some research first.
We have plenty of pitchers which, depending on your opinion, may bring the Sox into "average" territory. There is Sweeney, maybe Anderson and maybe Owens. What else? What Sox position prospect will be a bona fide impact player?

God forbid I'm not willing to drink the Kool-Aid without trying to find what flavor it is first... I might get bashed on the Internet.

rdivaldi

07-02-2007, 04:05 PM

What else? What Sox position prospect will be a bona fide impact player?

If I knew the answer to that question I'd be working in the front office of a major league baseball team. I for one believe that Sweeney is going to be a superstar player someday. A lot of us keep a close eye on Chris Carter down in A ball too. The fact is it's hard to predict how a player will hit in the big leagues until he actually gets there and sometimes it takes 2 or 3 years before something clicks. Too many people expect a player to come up and hit like Albert Pujols or Big Frank, that just ain't gonna happen.

lostfan

07-02-2007, 04:14 PM

If I knew the answer to that question I'd be working in the front office of a major league baseball team. I for one believe that Sweeney is going to be a superstar player someday. A lot of us keep a close eye on Chris Carter down in A ball too. The fact is it's hard to predict how a player will hit in the big leagues until he actually gets there and sometimes it takes 2 or 3 years before something clicks. Too many people expect a player to come up and hit like Albert Pujols or Big Frank, that just ain't gonna happen.
That is my main argument against everybody who trashed Anderson at the beginning of this year and the guys who have already labeled Sweeney as a bust(?!).

But until recently I didn't see anything at AA and below to get excited about, not even rookie ball. I'm not really happy with the farm system thanks to the so-so drafts in the last few years. I'm hoping this draft class pans out better.

jabrch

07-02-2007, 04:24 PM

Wait... how is our farm system not in terrible shape? It's probably in the bottom third of all MLB teams.

Based on WHAT?

I see lots of arms looking very solid. I don't see how we could be "terrible" given what I see in terms of pitching. We don't have many strong looking position players, but we have loads of potentially solid pitchers.

jabrch

07-02-2007, 04:25 PM

thanks to the so-so drafts in the last few years.

You won't drink the cool-aid without tasting it, but you sure will follow the lemmings off the cliff without lifting your head.

santo=dorf

07-02-2007, 04:28 PM

That's not the choice you have. You have a 3.80/1.25 pitcher or some very strong prospects AND $56 MILLION
Give me the 3.80/1.25 in the AL.

You go ahead an keep writing those numbers off thinking they're not special (my God, do you always agree with management?) but that WHIP is currently 13th best amongst active pitchers. His ERA is 23rd amongst active pitchers and his ERA+ is 18th amongst active pitchers.

I hope the Sox sign Buehrle to this bargain of a deal just to see you flip flop.

They're no guarantees these top prospects will amount to anything. Just ask Seattle about the 2004 trade with Freddy.

lostfan

07-02-2007, 04:29 PM

You won't drink the cool-aid without tasting it, but you sure will follow the lemmings off the cliff without lifting your head.
Very intelligent, well thought-out, and rational response.

I'm not even going to bother writing a reply. I disagree with you, therefore I must be a moron.

lostfan

07-02-2007, 04:32 PM

Based on WHAT?

I see lots of arms looking very solid. I don't see how we could be "terrible" given what I see in terms of pitching. We don't have many strong looking position players, but we have loads of potentially solid pitchers.
See above posts.

I acknowledged we have plenty of arms. But I don't like what I see at all from the position players. Can you honestly tell me that you're confident the farm system will produce enough good MLB players to have the Sox contending by 2009 or so, the way it stands now?

lostfan

07-02-2007, 05:12 PM

By the way I shouldn't have said the farm system is in the "bottom third" because that's an exaggeration... but IMO it's still no better than average, and considering the needs the major-league squad will have soon that's not good enough.

rdivaldi

07-02-2007, 06:03 PM

By the way I shouldn't have said the farm system is in the "bottom third" because that's an exaggeration... but IMO it's still no better than average, and considering the needs the major-league squad will have soon that's not good enough.

A team can't win through the farm system as their only source of talent. You need a GM that can build through trades and intelligent FA signings as well.

rdivaldi

07-02-2007, 06:06 PM

That is my main argument against everybody who trashed Anderson at the beginning of this year and the guys who have already labeled Sweeney as a bust(?!).

But until recently I didn't see anything at AA and below to get excited about, not even rookie ball. I'm not really happy with the farm system thanks to the so-so drafts in the last few years. I'm hoping this draft class pans out better.

I don't think I've heard anyone label Sweeney as a bust, if they did they need their head examined. The drafts of the last couple years have been okay, I'm interested to see how the 2004 crop of talent pans out. I agree that we do need to draft better and I'm not sure if re-promoting demoted executives is the way to do that.

lostfan

07-02-2007, 06:19 PM

I don't think I've heard anyone label Sweeney as a bust, if they did they need their head examined. The drafts of the last couple years have been okay, I'm interested to see how the 2004 crop of talent pans out. I agree that we do need to draft better and I'm not sure if re-promoting demoted executives is the way to do that.
Well nobody's point blank calling him a bust yet, but I've seen a bunch of people point to his .200 average before he was sent back down (that was a result of a 5-game cold streak which every major leaguer has) and say "he's clearly not ready" when a week before that everyone was going "he's ready to take over as a full-time major leaguer." I wholeheartedly disagree with that line of thought and I think it's silly... Sweeney needs to be starting everyday because I do believe he'll be an All-Star before too long once he breaks out of the rookie mold.

I really didn't like our approach to drafting until recently, with the whole low risk low ceiling deal (excluding pitchers). I want to see a Sizemore-caliber player come from somewhere, be it trades, drafts, or whatever. I don't want to see anyone else crash and burn. It looks like that's changing though.

lostfan

07-02-2007, 06:21 PM

A team can't win through the farm system as their only source of talent. You need a GM that can build through trades and intelligent FA signings as well.
I believe the farm should be the primary source of talent though. See how Atlanta just stumbles across these good players year in and year out. I know I'm asking for a lot but I want to see more of that out of the Sox.

esbrechtel

07-02-2007, 06:36 PM

i am so torn on the burls issue...for starters next season we are going to need a RF, CF, Possibly LF, 2B, SS, Bullpen...
We have no clue what the heck is going to happen at 3rd...so basically...
With burls we have a good major league rotation, without him we may fill some of those other holes....
The problem is after this year we basically have a 1B, C, Closer, 3 ML proven starters and Danks....That is alot of holes, I personally feel MB would be great to have on this team because he will give you 200 solid innings every year and he is giving us a helluva discount, I do not see the sox doing very well if they dont sign a free agent in the off season, if they do not then we are definately stuck with some rebuilding years...