I have decided I really need to learn this stuff better and have encountered some confusion:

1) C Major (Ionian) I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

2) D Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

3) E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

4) F Lydian IV 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

5) G Mixolydian V 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

6) A Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

7) B Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

My question is this, you can see how in the key of C the 2nd mode is Dorian.

Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

Thats how is appears to me, so if yes...Here is my confusion.

I have also read that each subsequent mode is starting the previous scale only on the next note.

For example C major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So Dorian should = 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

If this is correct where is the flat third?

Hopefully somone can see how I am looking at this and can help.

Hey,

Yup the joy of modes - okay the scale degrees quoted are relative to the Major scale in questions so for Dorian you would take the D Major scale and apply a b3 and b7 (so F# -> F & C# -> C) that gives you Dorian. The aim of the modes is to make the major scale in question (D) conform to the tonality of the root scale (C Major), in this case C has no # or b notes so we "move" the notes that don't conform to the expected tonality.

Have a look at these two and (hopefully) this will make sense, scale degrees:

Which means that if we look at the C Ionian (Major), D Ionian (Major) and D Dorian scales on the A string at the bottom of the finger board:

NB: I'm not suggesting this is how you would play these scales; it's just one octave to bring clarity to the example!

So, this has been running through my mind a lot lately. I stumbled across this video and it really helped. Especially thinking about how each mode relates to the major scale. This guy shows how to actually implement the modes/ a mode into your actual playing. You don't, necessarily, need to learn each mode in each position.

My understanding of modes is as follows.I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.

Play an open Low E Drone.Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.) ---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.

My understanding of modes is as follows.I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.

Play an open Low E Drone.Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.) ---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.

LLEADD wrote:

My understanding of modes is as follows.I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.

Play an open Low E Drone.Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.) ---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.

Get a backing jam track in C and then play leads. Play starting on the 3rd or 5th note, or all of them over a bit of time. Get the feel for how the scale feels over the progression.

If yo want to do something different, use a song that modulates keys, and experiment with changing the mode of the second key.

To learn modes, and basically quit worrying about them, my guitar teacher gave me a disc of tracks to work with.

It really helped to play using the mode idea. The feel of the note over the chord is what you are looking for. IMO, the whole mode business only is good for you if you can use it in your own improvising. That takes jam time.

_________________So let it be writtenSo let it be doneI'm sent here by the chosen oneSo let it be writtenSo let it be doneTo kill the first born pharaoh's sonI'm Creeping Death

My understanding of modes is as follows.I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.

Play an open Low E Drone.Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.) ---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.

LLEADD wrote:

My understanding of modes is as follows.I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.

Play an open Low E Drone.Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.) ---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.

Ok this video REALLY helps thank you. But I still feel uneasy and have a few questions.

This makes perfect sense and is the same thing Blitz Described. I get it 100%

However what is confusing is the "theory" talk. The flat thirds and Sharp 4ths ect.

Telling me Dorian mode is the major scale with a flat third and 7th is fine but let me explain. Lets say that you are playing the major scale on the 5th fret exactly like in this video.

Why would you not just play the same exact notes on the same exact frets but only flatten the third note and the seventh note vs. Playing the same exact scale a step down?

That is exactly right.You now know 2 different positions of the E Dorian scale (mode, whatever.)That's all modes are.... a different position to play the same scale.Try this:Pick any scale you want, start it on the 6th string - 5th fret (we are in the key of A - major or minor depends on what scale you picked), play that one note (A) and move to the next string (5th string) where you would play the next 3 notes of the scale. Next, move to the 4th string and play the next 3 notes, etc., etc., playing 3 notes per string until you get to the 1st string (where you'd play 3 notes as well).NOW,Start at the same spot (6th st., 5th fret), but this time play two notes before moving to the 5th string where you would again play 3 notes per string until you get to the 1st string.NEXT, (you guessed it)3 notes on the 6th string, then move to the 5th, and so on. You now have 3 different, adjacent positions of the same scale.

Now do that same exercise for the 5th string... it will start on the 12th fret, 5th string (A again, right?)The 3rd position of the scale that started on the 6th string will have the same higher notes as the lower notes of the 1st position that starts on the 5th string (1 note, then moving to the next string).

You have just covered the whole neck in whatever scale you chose.

Congratulations

_________________"... I don't have any experience with tube amps so I ask why the tone was "jumping" and why it was a bit "compressed" on the low end, maybe a bit of "pumping"... little did I know that this is exactly what tube amps do... they interact with your playing."Yup...

Thanks so much for the example. It helped me. I've been playing for many years just using the pentatonic and natural harmonic scales, etc, being that I play mostly blues based rock. Anyway, I am 52 now and decided I wanted to learn more theory. Modes have always confused me, but I think I'm getting it now.

So does this work with Minor scales? If I'm playing an A minor scale, can I use a mode to make the scale more E Phrygian? I mean, I understand the modes are used to create mood are they not? I hope that question makes sense. ThanksTim

I have decided I really need to learn this stuff better and have encountered some confusion:

1) C Major (Ionian) I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

2) D Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

3) E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

4) F Lydian IV 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

5) G Mixolydian V 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

6) A Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

7) B Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

My question is this, you can see how in the key of C the 2nd mode is Dorian.

Does this diagram mean that D Dorian is the C major scale with a flat third?

Thats how is appears to me, so if yes...Here is my confusion.

I have also read that each subsequent mode is starting the previous scale only on the next note.

For example C major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So Dorian should = 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

If this is correct where is the flat third?

Hopefully somone can see how I am looking at this and can help.

Hey,

Yup the joy of modes - okay the scale degrees quoted are relative to the Major scale in questions so for Dorian you would take the D Major scale and apply a b3 and b7 (so F# -> F & C# -> C) that gives you Dorian. The aim of the modes is to make the major scale in question (D) conform to the tonality of the root scale (C Major), in this case C has no # or b notes so we "move" the notes that don't conform to the expected tonality.

Have a look at these two and (hopefully) this will make sense, scale degrees:

Which means that if we look at the C Ionian (Major), D Ionian (Major) and D Dorian scales on the A string at the bottom of the finger board:

NB: I'm not suggesting this is how you would play these scales; it's just one octave to bring clarity to the example!

Thanks so much for the example. It helped me. I've been playing for many years just using the pentatonic and natural harmonic scales, etc, being that I play mostly blues based rock. Anyway, I am 52 now and decided I wanted to learn more theory. Modes have always confused me, but I think I'm getting it now.

So does this work with Minor scales? If I'm playing an A minor scale, can I use a mode to make the scale more E Phrygian? I mean, I understand the modes are used to create mood are they not? I hope that question makes sense. ThanksTim

Hey Tim,

If I understand your question you are basically asking can we use the theory of modes to make other scales conform to a different starting position than a major scale pattern. In my example C Major / Ionian, where we then take D Major / Ionian and make it modal by making it conform to the notes of the C Major scale by making the 3rd interval flat and the 7th interval flat.

Then the short answer is yes we could, but it's not the norm, all the normal modal names we use are inferring we are relating a major scale to another, i.e. D Dorian is C Major starting on the 2nd interval of the scale, E Phrygian is C Major starting on the 3rd interval etc.

However there is nothing to stop you saying that the tonal root of the scale could not be another scale but it would need to be a scale that was not already major or minor (as we understand the interval pattern as it relates to modes e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). If you use either of those and change the scale degrees you will still be in the modes due to the relative nature of Minor scales to Major scales (the 6th degree of all major scales are the root of the relative minor and share the same notes as the major scale in question).

So if you did what (I think) you are proposing and used A Minor (the 6th Degree of C Major) to create your modes you would in fact end up with exactly the same as the example above and if you wanted to play starting in E you would use E Phrygian and it should work!

If this is not what you were asking then please feel free to expand on what you wanted to know ;-)

Thanks so much. I get it.. Love it too! ThanksI'm going to practice now! THanks again..Tim

webrthomson wrote:

ThrowBackMan wrote:

Ross, (I think?)

Thanks so much for the example. It helped me. I've been playing for many years just using the pentatonic and natural harmonic scales, etc, being that I play mostly blues based rock. Anyway, I am 52 now and decided I wanted to learn more theory. Modes have always confused me, but I think I'm getting it now.

So does this work with Minor scales? If I'm playing an A minor scale, can I use a mode to make the scale more E Phrygian? I mean, I understand the modes are used to create mood are they not? I hope that question makes sense. ThanksTim

Hey Tim,

If I understand your question you are basically asking can we use the theory of modes to make other scales conform to a different starting position than a major scale pattern. In my example C Major / Ionian, where we then take D Major / Ionian and make it modal by making it conform to the notes of the C Major scale by making the 3rd interval flat and the 7th interval flat.

Then the short answer is yes we could, but it's not the norm, all the normal modal names we use are inferring we are relating a major scale to another, i.e. D Dorian is C Major starting on the 2nd interval of the scale, E Phrygian is C Major starting on the 3rd interval etc.

However there is nothing to stop you saying that the tonal root of the scale could not be another scale but it would need to be a scale that was not already major or minor (as we understand the interval pattern as it relates to modes e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). If you use either of those and change the scale degrees you will still be in the modes due to the relative nature of Minor scales to Major scales (the 6th degree of all major scales are the root of the relative minor and share the same notes as the major scale in question).

So if you did what (I think) you are proposing and used A Minor (the 6th Degree of C Major) to create your modes you would in fact end up with exactly the same as the example above and if you wanted to play starting in E you would use E Phrygian and it should work!

If this is not what you were asking then please feel free to expand on what you wanted to know ;-)

Since you mentioned that you mostly use pentatonics here's one to make what you already know speed up learning CAGED mode patterns.

Okay if you look at the modes there are three major, three minor and one diminished - cool, lets look at the scale degrees of the Minor Pentatonic:

1 b3 4 5 b7

And now lets look at the modes

So this means that for every CAGED position you know a Minor (& Major) Pentatonic you nearly know the relevant Minor (& Major) modes - there are only 2 more scale degrees to know, like so (Blue dots are the new ones you need to add to adjust the pattern to the relevant mode):

The problem child here is Locrian as its diminished and as someone commented above it's not really usable - I would caveat that with in a CAGED pattern - if you want to use it check out three note per string patterns and then it can be really ripping!!!

My understanding of modes is as follows.I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.

Play an open Low E Drone.Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.) ---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.

LLEADD wrote:

My understanding of modes is as follows.I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.

Play an open Low E Drone.Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.) ---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.

My understanding of modes is as follows.I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.

Play an open Low E Drone.Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.) ---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.

Don't worry too much over the theory yet, start with this video and the theory will start to make sense later down the road and will also become valuable.

LLEADD wrote:

My understanding of modes is as follows.I always forget the names and the exact theory behind but it still works.

Play an open Low E Drone.Now play a D Major scale over it and try and land on the E notes.That's Dorian. That's it.

Even though it's a D Major Scale you don't have to start or end with a D note.But since it's an E Drone try also landing on the B and G notes, within your D Major scale.Play any D Major scale shape/pattern all over neck.

If you play an A Drone, then play a G Major scale over it, that's Dorian too.D Drone---play a C Major Scale. Etc.

Mixolydian---Play an E Drone, play an A Major scale over it, again land the notes you think sound best (I think's it's Mixo.) ---Play an A Drone, play a D Major Scale over it.

Rather than changing the fingering of different modes couldn't you just play the Ionian fingering and move the root to create different modes or does it not work that way? I guess the example I'm thinking of is how we can move a minor pentatonic scale down 3 positions to get the major using the exact same fingering. Does this work with the Major scale?

This confusion is why I prefer to teach modes as independent scales with unique formulas rather than relating them to their parent major scales.

Dividing the modes into major and minor tonalities and using major and minor pentatonic shapes as backbones as mentioned earlier is normally how I suggest doing it.

Don't think of D dorian as C major starting on D, think of it as a scale with the formula 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7. Which, since it's a minor mode, can more easily be thought of as D minor with a natural 6, or D minor pentatonic with a natural 2 and natural 6.

I feel it gives a better understanding of interval relationships and gives each mode its own identity so to speak without having to relate it to a major scale.

Conceptually modes are fairly straightforward but turning it all into pretty (or brootalz) music is the hard part (for me anyway). The approach that has worked best for me is the one where you start with the major/minor pentatonics and then add the other 2 notes to make each mode. And you already know one of each major/minor mode, the actual major (Ionian) and minor (Aeolian) scales. So that gives you the 'naturals' to work with.

The major pentatonic scale tones are 1-2-3-5-6 and the major modes (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian) move the 4 and 7 around. Ionian (major scale) is natural, Lydian is sharp 4th, Mixolydian is flatted 7th.

Locrian is fubar and is it's own thing.

This was all mentioned above but sometimes seeing written a slightly different way makes a difference.

Maj = 1357 its resolved colors 2 , 6 , unresolved color 4 ( tension over major ) sharp or flat the colors and that will determine what mode you are in

repeat for minor chords and dominant why all the fuus about the locrian mode a minor 7b5 is also a dom9 btw you can use any of these minor modes including the locrian as altered dominant scales just control the half steps

So, this has been running through my mind a lot lately. I stumbled across this video and it really helped. Especially thinking about how each mode relates to the major scale. This guy shows how to actually implement the modes/ a mode into your actual playing. You don't, necessarily, need to learn each mode in each position.

Locrian is overlooked, but would be where i would insert an ascending diminished run and maybe fuck around with Harmonic minor on the descend and spiced with a super locrian even if i could remember all my scales without cheating IIRC.... i suck, so there's a lot of inadvertant chromatics for added color and ambience

Maj = 1357 its resolved colors 2 , 6 , unresolved color 4 ( tension over major ) sharp or flat the colors and that will determine what mode you are in

repeat for minor chords and dominant why all the fuus about the locrian mode a minor 7b5 is also a dom9 btw you can use any of these minor modes including the locrian as altered dominant scales just control the half steps

then use the colors to set up chord and key changes

now im sure you are all saying wtf

Nope, that's a really good explanation! Overlay this explanation on a scale pattern on the neck and see it falls right in line!

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