Discuss the possibility of banning Froslass from the ORAS LU metagame.

Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Froslass as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

OK so now I've gotten that out of the way, I think that Froslass is an unhealthy presence in the LU tier. Its speed and ability to be a threat guarantees it 1-2 layers of spikes a game, and there is a fairly severe lack of ways to play around it to prevent both that happening and Froslass taking down a mon with it. It requires no effort to do so, and mispredicts on the part of Froslass lose very little.

The tier lacks faster taunters or generally faster mons, as well as scarfers to be an annoyance for it, and common defoggers and spinners all lose to it 1v1 unless you run trash like Torkoal.

Your best bet limiting Froslass in the tier is pokemon which can break its sash and use priority after, making destiny bond less of a threat. Metagross, Gallade, Abomasnow, and to some extent Sharpedo are good mons that can do this, and this makes Froslass able to only get up a layer of spikes at best. Rhyperior is an annoyance for Froslass, though Froslass can choose to just eliminate Rhyperior instead of going for spikes. Cinccino can rek Froslass, being faster and with multi-hits. If you're not running one of these all you really have is mindgames and 50/50s. Froslass forces a lot of 50/50s into play just by being present, requiring very little effort on the part of the Froslass user and pretty much constant stellar prediction required on the part of the opponent while Froslass is in play. Basically Froslass is a 0 effort mon that provides immense utility in one set and forces the opponent into making very difficult choices every turn, even in the rare situation where the Froslass user isn't getting a huge amount of value out of it. It's unhealthy and should go.

Froslass is one of the best suicide lead of LU now that Smargle is gone and it does way too good its job. Typically, spikes stacking in Hyper Offense and having a kill with Destiny bond with its excellent 110 base speed guarentees at least one spikes and one destiny bond. It provokes mind games ( when it's going to taunt, spikes, dbond) and have a good matchup against the majority of the tier.
I think Aurist post sum it quite well, there's nothing to add and I also believe Froslass needs to leave

I don't think there is much to really say on Froslass among the lower tiers, especially with the concern being LU. It has a lot of positives to it, being that it's second fastest spiker in the tier, where only Accelgor out-speeds it naturally. What gives it a large edge over other hazard users as well as hazard removal Pokemon is Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Ghost typing combined with excellent speed. Froslass really beings to force a lot of 50/50's with it's combined traits since Taunt enables it to stop other Pokemon from setting up, and the omnipresent use of Destiny Bond will make players rethink a move to avoid losing a Pokemon, and can make forced switches. It can't be spun on, and outside say a Spin set Cloyster, the others have a hard dealing with straight up as Destiny Bond is there if they get it in a kill range. Outside Skuntank, all our standard Defog users have an inherent weakness to the Ice type which Froslass is a part of and its 4th move is generally Icy Wind or Ice Beam, so it makes it harder to play against with Defog users since they can be Taunted or take severe damage staring it down, though anyone that would try to go one on one with it that way is dumb. Best way of working around it usually means you have to fodder something off to Destiny Bond or hope that your opponent is bad at reading move probability, that or in general have a surprise attack + status/priority set that you can work around with.

For the most part it's basically played as Taunt if the opponent leads as something that sets up hazards or status, Spike as needed as they normally aren't strong Pokemon in doing damage until they put you in kill range, which due to it's low bulk usually is from 2 general hits at least, and then play the Destiny Bond game with them hoping Taunt is still in effect to do so. Against offensive stuff, get your Spikes up, they'll break you down to sash, and if they are the type to lack priority (Though any priority that isn't Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Shadow Sneak, or Ice Shard won't work on it), you can just straight out Destiny Bond after to force switches, or snag a fodder kill. Or as Aurist pointed out that it can forgo setting up against things that use multi hit moves like Rhyperior or Cloyster and just go in for the kill, as it means one less threatening thing is off the field for teams.

Straight up attacking and then hitting with a priority is essentially the way to fight against a Froslass, since it's almost always gonna be a lead as there isn't any other reason to do so, nor would it have any real switch in potential to be useful past the start of the match. Gallade, Metagross, Spiritomb, Kabutops, Samurott, and Sneasel all can be used, there really isn't many good options other than these in that front. Abomasnow can only do this if it's Wood Hammer + Shard @Aurist so I wouldn't say it does this job really well. Of course fast paced Scarfers can mess with it too like Delphox, Zoroark, Meloetta, etc, though it'll still get at least a Spike up, and knowing a choiced mon like these right off the bat can be pretty helpful in how you play later on in the match.

In short, it's faster than a larger portion of the game, while only having average...below average offensive capabilities and frail defenses, that works in it's favor because Sash is usually a must since Trick Scarf can be hindered with the potential of other common Scarf users (which we actually have fairly decent ones around, just they would generally be weak to Froslass in most cases), and the Mega Evolutions especially ones like Abomasnow or Steelix that would give them free set turns to do stuff. Upon it's deathbed it can generally take something with it through Destiny Bond, and as Froslass itself isn't necessarily mandatory to a team's victory, the thing it takes with it might be, so players have to be ready to fodder something at all and deal with taking a loss on the team. Froslass can be played around, but most times it requires predicting correctly if you deal with it with Status or an Attack at low HP can lead you to losing a Pokemon with the wrong pick. I'm more in favor of it leaving ORAS LU due to the low risk, moderate to high rewards that it brings (c'mon any potential free kill usually from full HP too is awesome to have), and the potential answers not being entirely common or having to deal with it through momentum play (Volt Turn tactics).

Froslass is just that kind of Pokemon no one wants to see at team preview because you feel you can very easily start off the game 5-5 and with a Spike on your side, and this is assuming Froslass is the lead, which it may very well not be, ending up with even more layers on your side. It just forces the player to a constant 50/50 between the variety of moves it has, and as stated before the best way to deal with it is to limit to one turn of use by the use of multiple-hit moves, which Froslass can very easily Destiny Bond versus and make you lose an important asset to your team (based lord Cinccino), faster mons or Choice Scarf mons (just wait for Cursed Body to kick in though), or priority moves. These conditions "only" let Froslass do two things: get up one layer or get a kill, which can already be very detrimental to a team, although if you lose downright to this situation you may have to revise your team.

It also has a lot of moves it can use other than Destiny Bond and Spikes: Taunt shuts down any hazard setter on the opposing side, any attempt of set up or even status to prevent you from dying to Destiny Bond, again forcing a 50/50; Ice STAB which is valuable against most Defoggers, and Icy Wind particularly since it drops your Speed to make you more vulnerable to slower wallbreakers or more prone to Pursuit trapping plus set up bait. Thunder Wave is also an option especially if you plan on prolonging Froslass's longevity to cripple the opposing side throughout the match or even get amazing free turns to get up more layers haha. Trick and Pain Split are also options but are overall less optimal in my opinion.

Froslass just seems a Pokemon with low risk-moderate risk / high reward and can be used in plenty of playstyles, just find it a bit frail to work on more defensive teams. The way I see it, when you use Froslass as a Spiker + Destiny Bond you are already counting on building a squad of 5 members to function with those hazards up but without Froslass itself, so essencially starting at an advantageous 5-5 with a well structured 5 member team to abuse these easy layers and support provided by a single Pokemon. I might be overreacting or exaggerating here, but I hope my point goes across these paragrahps. Ban

Without a priority user most matches will be 5-5 after some turns and at least spikes level 1. If u dont have priority u need scarf to outspeed it and scarfers dont use taunt - so u can do nothing against spikes or dbond. But does that really deserve a ban? I think the Froslass user doesn't get that big advantage that is needed to ban it. After Froslass is gone u can use rapid spin or defog without any problem. We shouldnt ban all spikers from the lower tiers, i dont know many other good spikers. So i would say Froslass is a strong pokemon in LU but not overpowered

@La.Melle2402 you are overlooking the fact that Froslass can be used outside the lead spot. It has favorable matchup against most spinners, blocking the Spin and Spiking / Destiny Bond if they pack offensive pressure aka Kabutops, and the same goes for Defoggers, the most common ones being 4x weak to Ice. The problem with Froslass is not the Pokemon itself, it is the way that it forces you to play around it that is annoying and unhealthy in terms of building and playing, imo

The main reason why people don't mention lass outside the lead spot is because it's the optimal place to put it. You can switch in on weak walls but any status or being put into a situation where you have to Dbond or do essentially nothing but throw a level of spikes down is pretty bad and other spikers work much better on slower paced balance teams or stall.

Really though with how little prior damage many pokemon in the tier need to reach 2HKOs, Froslass' guaranteed spikes and immensely probable taking a pokemon down with it makes it far too strong to keep in the tier. There's just too much guesswork involved around taking it down, with switching needed to circumvent a well played Froslass' Dbond and most of our spin and defog users not being able to stop it themselves.

The problem with Froslass currentely is that her Lead-Spiker set it is extremely difficult to deal with, and it can often ensure one or two layer of spikes and a kill on the enemy team. She has acces to a lot of strong support moves that often bring to dangerous 50/50 situation that can heavily affect the rest of the game, also being a Ghost/Ice Pokemon with access to spikes makes her really important for most offensive teams, being able to stop spinners and to threaten defoggers (as someone said they are generally weak to ice, though 110 Speed+Taunt makes her tricky even for stuffs like Skuntank) while also fullfill the Spiker role. The best ways to play around a Froslass are to threaten her with faster mons (Jolteon/Noivern and Scarfers with volturn moves can usually deal well against Froslass), priorities (Mega Abomasnow/Kabutops/Metagross) or multi-hitting moves (Cloyster/Crustle), though the Froslass user can usually deal with these things with the right team support. Finally, Froslass has a fantastic type with a brilliant speedtier and the ability to put an enormous pressure on the enemy team if played properly, for these reasons and for all stated before in this topic Froslass will be banned from the ORAS LU tier.

The ban will not affect the ORAS LU tier of the POCL's current week, but will occur in the next ones.