I was looking for a comprehensive comparison between the Rules Compendium and Dark Dungeons. Has anyone made an attempt? Name changes, wholesale subsystem reinvention, chart polishes, implemented errata, etc.

Eric Anondson wrote:I was looking for a comprehensive comparison between the Rules Compendium and Dark Dungeons. Has anyone made an attempt? Name changes, wholesale subsystem reinvention, chart polishes, implemented errata, etc.

I rather foolishly didn't keep a list of changes as I was writing it. There's an issue with the OGL license in terms of claiming compatibility and so forth - which is why I make sure that neither the rules themselves nor the Dark Dungeons website even mention the RC (or Dungeons & Dragons) by name.

However, I think a discussion on this board where someone else has already asked the question is far enough removed from the book itself that we can informally talk about it here.

So here's the changes I can recall, and other people can add to this list as/when they find other such differences...

Dark Dungeons includes its equivalents of Weapon Mastery, Mystics, Druids, and Skills as core rules instead of optional rules.

Dark Dungeons includes rules for dying (save vs Death each round with a cumulative -1 penalty per round). The RC doesn't have this rule as core, although it has a similar (but more generous) optional rule.

Dark Dungeons extrapolates ability score bonuses all the way up to ability scores of 100. Most of this is taken from WotI, but the Dexterity modifiers for initiative for scores beyond 18 are new (I based them on the Charisma modifiers for morale, since the two were the same for scores from 3-18).

I've smoothed the to-hit progressions for each class. They still progress at the same overall rate as in the RC, but I've given them a larger number of small increases compared to the RC's small number of larger increases.

I've smoothed the saving throw progressions for each class. They still progress at the same overall rate as in the RC, but I've given them a larger number of small increases compared to the RC's small number of larger increases.

I've extrapolated the saving throws for demi-humans and mystics all the way up to level 36.

"Weapon Mastery" has been renamed to "Weapon Feats" to avoid copyright infringement.

"Infravision" has been renamed to "Heatvision" to avoid copyright infringement.

The experience tables for demi-humans have been extrapolated to 36th level (this is my own extrapolation, not the optional one from the back of the RC).

I use the spells-per-day table for magic user from the original BECMI books (rather than from the RC, which suffered from bad editing there).

Dark Dungeons elves get the same spells per day as magic users of equivalent level.

I keep the same basic skill system as the RC's optional one, but with my own skill list so that a) there are no skills that overlap class abilities, and b) all skills use the same mechanic.

Dark Dungeons has gunpowder (well, "red powder" in a nod to the Savage Coast) weapons - Pistols, Smoothbores and Cannons. It also has rules for throwing small packets of red powder as grenade-like weapons. The rules are such that these small weapons can't be extrapolated into simply rolling barrels of the stuff into the dragon's lair and blowing it up!

Dark Dungeons includes the optional unarmed striking rules (but not the optional wrestling rules) from the RC as core, and modifies their "stun" capability so that it is consistent with the rules for other weapons that can stun.

I also invented some rules to integrate the unarmed striking rules with the rules for Mystics.

Druids in Dark Dungeons can cast all Cleric spells as well as their own extra ones. They no longer lose the two to four (depending on how strictly it is interpreted) spells that deal with alignment.

The Paladin, Avenger and Knight options for high level fighters have been merged into a single "Chevalier" option involving a fighter of any alignment taking Chivalric Vows.

The Druid version of the "Dissolve" spell is now reversible like the Magic-User version.

I've included the notes (from WotI) about how spells affect Immortals in the base spell descriptions.

I've replaced the description of the "Gate" spell with one heavily based on the WotI version.

I've specified exactly which spells a Permanence spell will work with (rather than leaving the vague guideline) and added extra rules about how Permanence interacts with spells that can have their duration ended prematurely.

I've changed the "Contact Outer Plane" table to work with the Dark Dungeons cosmology rather than the RC's Mystara cosmology.

The "Aerial Servant" spell has been replaced with a "Wind Walker" spell, because the name of the monster has been changed.

Dark Dungeons includes original rules on levels of light and darkness (normal, magical, continual) and how they interact with each other.

I've added Donkeys to the monster list, since they're in the equipment list!

I've added original rules for the cost and availability of buying individual spells from spellcasters.

I've replaced the RC's generic names for boats and ships with specific ship types and descriptions.

I've added "Sails of Skysailing", which let some ships fly through the air (and through space - using rules inspired by and compatible with the Spelljammer set).

I've dropped the confusing term "Turns". When not in round-based combat time, time is simply measured in minutes.

I've replaced the RC's "Open Doors" roll with a Strength check.

I've specified exactly what happens when Disarm Traps rolls fail, and when they can be retried.

Dark Dungeons uses the RC's individual initiative option as default.

I've added a "Statement of Intent" phase before initiative. The BECMI set was apparently supposed to include this, but it was lost in editing!

Dark Dungeons has lots of clarification about the different actions that can be performed in melee, what happens if they're interrupted by an opponent's action, and which are compatible with different aspects of Weapon Mastery (deflect attempts, AC bonus, etc.)

Dark Dungeons has extra clarification about the timing of multiple actions that "always win initiative" or "always lose initiative".

I've combined the rules for damaging buildings and the rules for damaging ships into a single consistent set of rules for "attacking structures".

Dark Dungeons contains extra clarification on limits of Raise Dead and Raise Dead Fully in terms of how intact the body must be.

Dark Dungeons includes its own table for the Reincarnation spell so that it doesn't keep reincarnating non-humanoids as humanoids.

In Dark Dungeons, dying and being raised restores the experience lost from energy drains.

I've removed the ability to copy spells from the books of other magic-users, and replaced it with a version of the table for gaining Weapon Mastery - so magic-users and elves must be taught spells or must research them on their own. The enemy magic-user's spell book is no longer the most valuable item in the dungeon!

I've clarified (and simplified) what happens to overland movement rates when moving through more than one type of terrain in the same day.

I've clarified what happens when a party who was lost and moving in the wrong direction overland discovers their error.

Dark Dungeons has simplified foraging rules.

I've unified and simplified the rules for various classes building strongholds into a single set.

I've corrected the RC's errors with regard to dominion income (it gets confused between 8-mile and 24-mile hexes) by introducing the concept of a "Fief" - the unit of administration of land.

I've combined the RC's incompatible rules for civilisation level based on domain growth and the civilisation as a hex-type.

In Dark Dungeons, the Confidence Level of a dominion no longer unrealistically resets at the beginning of each year - so ongoing events can result in a slow increase or decrease over multiple years.

I've replaced the specific list of dominion events with a generic list of event types, giving examples of each.

Dark Dungeons simplifies the two-stage calculation of army strength by starting with the ranked "Troop Rating" and working from there.

The "Mystara" cosmology has been replaced with an original cosmology, meaning that Dark Dungeons has completely new rules for the Ethereal and Elemental planes (and has no Astral plane).

Dark Dungeons discards all the strictly codified quests and tasks needed to become an Immortal (from the WotI set), listing only the actual mechanical requirements and leaving such quests and tasks as campaign specific (and Immortal specific) choices.

Since the WotI set has a strict correspondence between the Permanent Power of an Immortal and its experience (1PP = 10,000xp); Dark Dungeons does away with the confusing Permanent Power/Temporary Power split and makes the cost of Immortal level abilities based on either Power Points or Experience Points instead.

The various miscellaneous Immortal powers have been codified and written up as Immortal Level Spells (and split into "Lesser" and "Greater" depending on whether they use Power Points or Experience Points to power them).

I've integrated the skill and Weapon Mastery rules into the Immortals rules.

I've created a specific Immortal Level Spell for the investiture (and excommunication) of clerics based on the "Transform" spell.

Many, many RC and WotI monsters have been renamed or altered (and a few have been dropped completely) to avoid copyright infringement - too many to list here.

Monsters that use weapons have relevant Weapon Mastery bonuses pre-added to their stat blocks.

Limits on the treasure tables are now done by monster level rather than character level - and apply to magical weapons/armour as well as gems and jewellery.

I've combined the two different RC tables for magical weapons/armour (which were taken from the old Expert and Companion sets) into a single table.

I've clarified the rules for creating artefacts, and simplified the rules for their destruction.

I've added a simple "Minimum hit points" table for characters to help those - particularly those at lower level - who keep rolling '1's.

You'll notice that the majority of those changes are actually clarifications of existing vague (or missing!) rules, or integration of different conflicting mechanics into a single system.

One of the biggest issues when writing it was that the RC rules have a surprising amount of internal conflict because of the way it was edited. There are cases where rules in one of the BECM books were superseded by rules in a later book, but the RC simply includes both mutually incompatible rules with equal footing. Similarly, the various RC optional rules each tell you how to use them with the core rules (mostly) but don't explain how they work with each other well...

There are also a big chunk of rules that are setting-specific (such as firearms, skysailing and the Dark Dungeons cosmology) since I was forced to use an original setting rather than Mystara.

There aren't that many changes that are simply house-rules introduced because I prefer them to the RC rules. The biggest one that springs to mind is the way new magic-user spells are learned from teachers rather than books.

Many, many RC and WotI monsters have been renamed or altered (and a few have been dropped completely) to avoid copyright infringement - too many to list here.

To expand on this, I can't find the spreadsheet that I used for this, but...

Of the 302 monster entries in the RC and WotI:

125 were used as-is because they are in the SRD, and are therefore OGL (although sometimes with a name-change, e.g. "Whispering Fiend" becomes "Succubus")

65 were used as-is because although they are not in the SRD, they are mundane real-world animals or people and therefore in common use (although there are surprisingly many duplicates e.g "Flying Dinosaur" and "Pterosaur" being separate entries)

16 were used as-is because although they are not in the SRD, they are real-world mythological or legendary creatures and therefore in common use (although sometimes with a name-change, e.g. "Nekrozon" becomes "Catoblepas")

28 were used as-is because although they are not in the SRD, they are logical extensions of other creatures and can therefore be argued to be common use (such as giant versions of animals).

68 were not used because they are not in the SRD and are therefore original TSR/WotC property (although in some cases I could make an original creature that has the same abilities).

I thought it would be interesting to sort these changes into categories, based on why the changes were made (although some changes may fit into more than one category)...

Optional RC rules or WotI rules "promoted" to core

Dark Dungeons includes its equivalents of Weapon Mastery, Mystics, Druids, and Skills as core rules instead of optional rules.

Dark Dungeons extrapolates ability score bonuses all the way up to ability scores of 100. Most of this is taken from WotI, but the Dexterity modifiers for initiative for scores beyond 18 are new (I based them on the Charisma modifiers for morale, since the two were the same for scores from 3-18).

"Weapon Mastery" has been renamed to "Weapon Feats" to avoid copyright infringement.

I keep the same basic skill system as the RC's optional one, but with my own skill list so that a) there are no skills that overlap class abilities, and b) all skills use the same mechanic.

Dark Dungeons includes the optional unarmed striking rules (but not the optional wrestling rules) from the RC as core, and modifies their "stun" capability so that it is consistent with the rules for other weapons that can stun.

I've included the notes (from WotI) about how spells affect Immortals in the base spell descriptions.

I've replaced the description of the "Gate" spell with one heavily based on the WotI version.

Dark Dungeons uses the RC's individual initiative option as default.

Monsters that use weapons have relevant Weapon Mastery bonuses pre-added to their stat blocks.

Extra clarification of unclear or contradictory RC Rules

I've invented some rules to integrate the unarmed striking rules with the rules for Mystics.

I've specified exactly which spells a Permanence spell will work with (rather than leaving the vague guideline) and added extra rules about how Permanence interacts with spells that can have their duration ended prematurely.

Dark Dungeons includes original rules on levels of light and darkness (normal, magical, continual) and how they interact with each other.

I've replaced the RC's generic names for boats and ships with specific ship types and descriptions.

I've specified exactly what happens when Disarm Traps rolls fail, and when they can be retried.

Dark Dungeons has lots of clarification about the different actions that can be performed in melee, what happens if they're interrupted by an opponent's action, and which are compatible with different aspects of Weapon Mastery (deflect attempts, AC bonus, etc.)

Dark Dungeons has extra clarification about the timing of multiple actions that "always win initiative" or "always lose initiative".

I've combined the rules for damaging buildings and the rules for damaging ships into a single consistent set of rules for "attacking structures".

Dark Dungeons contains extra clarification on limits of Raise Dead and Raise Dead Fully in terms of how intact the body must be.

I've clarified (and simplified) what happens to overland movement rates when moving through more than one type of terrain in the same day.

Dark Dungeons includes its own table for the Reincarnation spell so that it doesn't keep reincarnating non-humanoids as humanoids.

I've clarified what happens when a party who was lost and moving in the wrong direction overland discovers their error.

I've combined the RC's incompatible rules for civilisation level based on domain growth and the civilisation as a hex-type.

Correction of RC errors and omissions

I use the spells-per-day table for magic user from the original BECMI books (rather than from the RC, which suffered from bad editing there).

I've added Donkeys to the monster list, since they're in the equipment list!

I've added a "Statement of Intent" phase before initiative. The BECMI set was apparently supposed to include this, but it was lost in editing!

I've created a specific Immortal Level Spell for the investiture (and excommunication) of clerics based on the "Transform" spell, since the original rules said that they did it but omitted a mechanism for doing it.

In Dark Dungeons, the Confidence Level of a dominion no longer resets at the beginning of each year - so ongoing events can result in a slow increase or decrease over multiple years and all confidence levels can be reached.

I've corrected the RC's errors with regard to dominion income (it gets confused between 8-mile and 24-mile hexes) by introducing the concept of a "Fief" - the unit of administration of land.

Simplification/smoothing of unnecessarily complex RC rules

I've smoothed the to-hit progressions for each class. They still progress at the same overall rate as in the RC, but I've given them a larger number of small increases compared to the RC's small number of larger increases.

I've smoothed the saving throw progressions for each class. They still progress at the same overall rate as in the RC, but I've given them a larger number of small increases compared to the RC's small number of larger increases.

Druids in Dark Dungeons can cast all Cleric spells as well as their own extra ones. They no longer lose the two to four (depending on how strictly it is interpreted) spells that deal with alignment.

The Paladin, Avenger and Knight options for high level fighters have been merged into a single "Chevalier" option involving a fighter of any alignment taking Chivalric Vows.

The Druid version of the "Dissolve" spell is now reversible like the Magic-User version.

I've dropped the confusing term "Turns". When not in round-based combat time, time is simply measured in minutes.

I've replaced the RC's "Open Doors" roll with a Strength check.

Dark Dungeons has simplified foraging rules.

I've unified and simplified the rules for various classes building strongholds into a single set.

I've replaced the specific list of dominion events with a generic list of event types, giving examples of each.

Dark Dungeons simplifies the two-stage calculation of army strength by starting with the ranked "Troop Rating" and working from there.

Since the WotI set has a strict correspondence between the Permanent Power of an Immortal and its experience (1PP = 10,000xp); Dark Dungeons does away with the confusing Permanent Power/Temporary Power split and makes the cost of Immortal level abilities based on either Power Points or Experience Points instead.

The various miscellaneous Immortal powers have been codified and written up as Immortal Level Spells (and split into "Lesser" and "Greater" depending on whether they use Power Points or Experience Points to power them).

I've integrated the skill and Weapon Mastery rules into the Immortals rules.

Limits on the treasure tables are now done by monster level rather than character level - and apply to magical weapons/armour as well as gems and jewellery.

I've combined the two different RC tables for magical weapons/armour (which were taken from the old Expert and Companion sets) into a single table.

I've clarified the rules for creating artefacts, and simplified the rules for their destruction.

Changes made for copyright reasons

"Infravision" has been renamed to "Heatvision" to avoid copyright infringement.

I've changed the "Contact Outer Plane" table to work with the Dark Dungeons cosmology rather than the RC's Mystara cosmology.

The "Aerial Servant" spell has been replaced with a "Wind Walker" spell, because the name of the monster has been changed.

The "Mystara" cosmology has been replaced with an original cosmology, meaning that Dark Dungeons has completely new rules for the Ethereal and Elemental planes (and has no Astral plane).

Dark Dungeons discards all the strictly codified quests and tasks needed to become an Immortal (from the WotI set), listing only the actual mechanical requirements and leaving such quests and tasks as campaign specific (and Immortal specific) choices.

Many, many RC and WotI monsters have been renamed or altered (and a few have been dropped completely) to avoid copyright infringement - too many to list here.

House Rules

Dark Dungeons includes rules for dying (save vs Death each round with a cumulative -1 penalty per round). The RC doesn't have this rule as core, although it has a similar (but more generous) optional rule.

The experience tables for demi-humans have been extrapolated to 36th level (this is my own extrapolation, not the optional one from the back of the RC).

I've extrapolated the saving throws for demi-humans and mystics all the way up to level 36.

In Dark Dungeons, dying and being raised restores the experience lost from energy drains.

Dark Dungeons elves get the same spells per day as magic users of equivalent level.

Dark Dungeons has gunpowder (well, "red powder" in a nod to the Savage Coast) weapons - Pistols, Smoothbores and Cannons. It also has rules for throwing small packets of red powder as grenade-like weapons. The rules are such that these small weapons can't be extrapolated into simply rolling barrels of the stuff into the dragon's lair and blowing it up!

I've added original rules for the cost and availability of buying individual spells from spellcasters.

I've added "Sails of Skysailing", which let some ships fly through the air (and through space - using rules inspired by and compatible with the Spelljammer set).

I've removed the ability to copy spells from the books of other magic-users, and replaced it with a version of the table for gaining Weapon Mastery - so magic-users and elves must be taught spells or must research them on their own. The enemy magic-user's spell book is no longer the most valuable item in the dungeon!

I've added a simple "Minimum hit points" table for characters to help those - particularly those at lower level - who keep rolling '1's.

This is a really useful set of lists which explain some holes in my personal referencing whilst reading Dark dungeons up to now. I have all of the boxed sets, but I don't think I've ever even seen the Rules Cyclopedia (I knew of it, but wasn't aware of the differences) or the Worlds of the Immortals set.
It's impressive to see how you've brought it all together.

Looks good. Having this list has helped me alot. Although I did download the free PDF I was still iffy if I'd want to use it or not. This list has made DD a very compelling choice for me.Though I own a print copy of LL but it hasn't grabbed me. I liked what I've seen with BFRPG & S&W but DD seems like what I was looking for. I'll read the PDF asap so I'll know for sure, thanx.

Wrestling is a niche skill. In one on one combat, very useful. Facing multiple opponents, do you really want to be lying on the ground with your back exposed and your limbs tangled up with someone else's? Adding in role-playing - do you really want to wrestle an orc? How about a zombie?

outlander78 wrote:Wrestling is a niche skill. In one on one combat, very useful. Facing multiple opponents, do you really want to be lying on the ground with your back exposed and your limbs tangled up with someone else's? Adding in role-playing - do you really want to wrestle an orc? How about a zombie?

outlander78 wrote:Wrestling is a niche skill. In one on one combat, very useful. Facing multiple opponents, do you really want to be lying on the ground with your back exposed and your limbs tangled up with someone else's? Adding in role-playing - do you really want to wrestle an orc? How about a zombie?

BotWizo wrote:I take it the gemstone dragons are copyright infringement?

how did you know which monsters were on the naughty list and which were on the nice list?

Brute force and ignorance.

I went through a copy of the RC and WotI, and simply wrote a list of all the monsters in Excel.

Then I went through an online copy of the SRD and copy/pasted a list of monsters from there into Excel too.

After sorting both lists, I just went through them ticking off those that matched.

As mentioned above, that accounted for 125 of the 302 monsters in my list. I then went through the other 177 taking a judgement as to whether they were:

Existing animals (there were 65 of these) or existing real-world mythological creatures (there were 16 of these) - which I could therefore use.

Creatures that, while not existing in real world mythology, are logical extensions of other creatures that could therefore be argued as in common use (there were 28 of these) - and which I could therefore use.

Creatures that were none of the above, and were therefore TSR property (there were 68 of these) - and which I could therefore not use without changing the name and description.

The reason there were so many in the last category was because although there aren't many creatures explicitly marked as "Product Identity", there were many BECMI creatures that simply never made it into 3.x so there are no SRD equivalents of them.

Unfortunately, I don't still have the Excel spreadsheet I used for categorisation because I also used it to record my progress while writing the chapter - and I was therefore deleting entries as I went along.

Here is a funny question how different is the RC from BECMI, not in bullet points like you have done, but say percentage wise?
2-5% difference between RC and BECMI?

I'm going to bullet point them anyway because although there are few differences, each one is quite large - so it makes a percentage difficult to estimate...

The RC includes a full - but optional - class write-up for the Mystic class (discussed in the Master set) that goes to 16th level.

The RC includes optional rules to get rid of level limits and let demi-humans (and mystics) go all the way to 36th level.

The RC includes an optional skill system similar to, but not identical to, the system in GAZ1.

The RC doesn't include the I part of BECMI, only covering BECM. However, a later supplement (Wrath of the Immortals - also covered by Dark Dungeons) supplies a different set of Immortal rules.

The RC doesn't include the rules for artefacts (although these are in the Wrath of the Immortals supplement).

The RC doesn't include the jousting tournament rules from the Companion.

The RC includes four extra magic-user spells (Clothform, Woodform, Stoneform, Steelform) in order to give magic-users the same number of spells at each level.

There are quite a few editing errors in the RC, such as the accidental switching back and forth between 8-mile hexes and 24-mile hexes when discussing Dominions.

There are a few places where the BECMI sets would have a rule in a later set that replaces a rule in an earlier set, but the RC simply copies both conflicting rules over to sit side by side without resolving the conflict in either direction.

I ask this cause when looking at the DD magic weapon tables they are very different from the Companion set magic weapon creation tables.

They are.

The RC provides the magic weapon tables from the Expert set and the magic weapon tables from the Companion set side by side and basically lets you choose which to use. I didn't want to do that, so I created my own table that was in the style of the Expert set - in that it had specific weapons rather than a "build your own weapon" toolkit - but included the higher bonuses and some of the better abilities from the Companion.

Here is a funny question how different is the RC from BECMI, not in bullet points like you have done, but say percentage wise?
2-5% difference between RC and BECMI?

I'm going to bullet point them anyway because although there are few differences, each one is quite large - so it makes a percentage difficult to estimate...

The RC includes a full - but optional - class write-up for the Mystic class (discussed in the Master set) that goes to 16th level.

The RC includes optional rules to get rid of level limits and let demi-humans (and mystics) go all the way to 36th level.

The RC includes an optional skill system similar to, but not identical to, the system in GAZ1.

The RC doesn't include the I part of BECMI, only covering BECM. However, a later supplement (Wrath of the Immortals - also covered by Dark Dungeons) supplies a different set of Immortal rules.

The RC doesn't include the rules for artefacts (although these are in the Wrath of the Immortals supplement).

The RC doesn't include the jousting tournament rules from the Companion.

The RC includes four extra magic-user spells (Clothform, Woodform, Stoneform, Steelform) in order to give magic-users the same number of spells at each level.

There are quite a few editing errors in the RC, such as the accidental switching back and forth between 8-mile hexes and 24-mile hexes when discussing Dominions.

There are a few places where the BECMI sets would have a rule in a later set that replaces a rule in an earlier set, but the RC simply copies both conflicting rules over to sit side by side without resolving the conflict in either direction.

I ask this cause when looking at the DD magic weapon tables they are very different from the Companion set magic weapon creation tables.

They are.

The RC provides the magic weapon tables from the Expert set and the magic weapon tables from the Companion set side by side and basically lets you choose which to use. I didn't want to do that, so I created my own table that was in the style of the Expert set - in that it had specific weapons rather than a "build your own weapon" toolkit - but included the higher bonuses and some of the better abilities from the Companion.