Never actually tried sport multi before just trad, and it's almost always on a ledge.

What are some typical ways to setup the hanging belay while keeping things organized, rope tidy, and bolts not too crowded?

Something like at end of lead, clip into one bolt with sling, throw carabiner in other bolt attach with rope and clove. Throw up two draws and basically top rope second from your harness off the draws?

Seems like not much room for the second to clip when he arrives, though he wouldn't be there long if leading next pitch which is simplest.

Is it easiest to try and have the draws at about chest level, then flake the rope over the sling that anchors you to the bolt?

But what I would do is first clip the rope to one anchor with a clove hitch and clip a tether to the other anchor and call off belay. Next, toss a pretied sliding x with limiter knots over top of that. If there are no chains, I would put the sliding x on first, and clip my rope and tether to the locking biners. Then pull up all of the rope and lay it neatly over the rope or tether, clip the climber to a reverso and tell them they are on belay. Start belaying. When the second arrives, pass all of the draws or rack or whatever to them, take their belay device to put them on belay with it, then let them remove the reverso and start climbing.

What helps to keep it organized is to think of the anchor in layers. I always picture my personal anchors on the bottom, and make sure they don't lay on top of anything. Then comes the master point, then the rope, then the climber. I also try to stagger things from left to right, or right to left as well as bottom to top.

Never actually tried sport multi before just trad, and it's almost always on a ledge.

What are some typical ways to setup the hanging belay while keeping things organized, rope tidy, and bolts not too crowded?

Something like at end of lead, clip into one bolt with sling, throw carabiner in other bolt attach with rope and clove. Throw up two draws and basically top rope second from your harness off the draws?

Seems like not much room for the second to clip when he arrives, though he wouldn't be there long if leading next pitch which is simplest.

Is it easiest to try and have the draws at about chest level, then flake the rope over the sling that anchors you to the bolt?

1) throw up a draw, clip it and hang (optional depending on how good your stance is)

2) Take a doubled coradlet and "equalize" the two bolts leaving a burly HMS locker as your single power point.

3) Clip into this with your personal anchor sling and another locker clove hitched to the rope for redundancy. Depending on your comfort level, clip one of those directly to the cordalet for even more redundancy but fiddly belay changeovers (you will have to unweight the anchor to unclip it).

4) Adjust the cloved rope length to get in a comfortable position and take your shoes off. Edit: Anyone who has spent any amount of time doing hanging belays in a free climbing harness knows this step is crucial.

5) Clip your magic plate style device to the power point biner with another biner...make sure it is on the side where the rope will run the most free but don't stick the rope in it yet.

6) Pull up the tag line if you have one and stack it over your tether so it will run free.

7) Pull the lead rope up and lay it back and forth over your sling/cloved rope stacking it so that it will run free for the next lead belay.

7) When you get close to running out of rope put the rope in the device, give a couple of jerks and yell on belay. Your partner might not here you but will know you are at the belay because you pulled up the tag and gave the jerk.

Another small thing is to position yourself right. If the next pitch starts off to the right, position yourself on the left hand side of the anchor, and vice versa. This way your second will be in the right position to start leading immediately when reaching the anchor.

Another small thing is to position yourself right. If the next pitch starts off to the right, position yourself on the left hand side of the anchor, and vice versa. This way your second will be in the right position to start leading immediately when reaching the anchor.

Another small thing is to position yourself right. If the next pitch starts off to the right, position yourself on the left hand side of the anchor, and vice versa. This way your second will be in the right position to start leading immediately when reaching the anchor.

How might one do this on a true hanging belay?

First, the bolts need to be spaced apart. Next, you tether yourself into the far left or right bolt so that you're essentially hanging from it rather than from a power point somewhere in between. This leaves the other bolt free for the second to clip into.

I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.

I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.

what about ways to avoid being in each others way when you're both at the hanging belay, w/o one person having to uncomfortably try to stay off to one side while the other climber sets up the rap and so on?

I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.

what about ways to avoid being in each others way when you're both at the hanging belay, w/o one person having to uncomfortably try to stay off to one side while the other climber sets up the rap and so on?

That's what the first paragraph that (s)he wrote addressed.

Personally, this is what I might see myself doing in a general situation: I'd put a quickdraw on each bolt, clip the bottom left carabiner (of the four carabiners with the two draws). Here if I am very pumped I can take. Once ready, I'd clove hitch the biner that I clipped, pull up a bit more slack and tie a fig8 on a bight and clip that into the top-right biner (my connection to the anchor is now redundant). After that I'd belay the second using a re-direct off the bottom right biner.

This avoids needing special equipment (daisy chain, pas, extra 2' slings). If I wanted a powerpoint, I could just tie a fig8 on a bight between my clove hitch (bottom left biner) and fig 8 (top right biner).

Once the climber arrives at the belay, they'll be sitting on the right biner, and I'll be sitting on the left biner. Seems about the best you could do for comfort given only bolts, draws, and a rope while you're at a hanging belay. It's not equalized, but it's redundant and extension should be minimal (and the rope is obviously dynamic) should one of the bolts fail. It sure seems to me that it is not possible to hang to one side AND be equalized on a hanging belay. If you want to split up the room at a hanging belay for comfort, you have to give up equalization. At least, that's how it seems to work in my head! Please correct me if I'm wrong, somebody.

Edit: That last bit assumes no gear other than rope, draws, and bolts. Also, it use as re-direct.

The side that you choose to start clipping stuff to while building your anchor would be determined by the side the other climber will be coming from while they're seconding, and which side they'll be going to once they're leading.

So if I know that I have bolted belays, hanging or otherwise I usually will have a double length sling set up with two non lockers, one on either end, and limiting knots tied near the middle. I carry that over my shoulder with the biners clipped together.

When I get to the belay, if i'm comfortable with my stance and/or my last bolt/pro is not far below me, I grab the double length sling, clip 1 biner to each bolt, set up my sliding x, clove myself in with the climbing rope, and holler off belay.

from there, I pull any extra rope up, stack it on my tether, or coil it over my leg/foot; put my second on belay with my atc guide clipped to the same spot that my rope is clipped to the sliding X and holler on belay.

I like to hang with the bolts at eye level or higher, i think it makes it less awkward for belaying the second. Usually whoever is leading the next pitch will be belayed off of the harness of the person at the anchor and usually we are risking a factor 2 fall until the leader clips a bolt or puts in some gear. If the climbing looks insecure, or we're uncertain of how far away the first piece/bolt is, we'll clip a bolt of the anchor, mostly to make holding the potential almost factor 2 fall easier/less awkward (it's gonna suck if it happens no matter what but we do what we can when we think it's a possibility, but so far I've never had that fall happen)

I like not constructing the anchor from the rope because usually I lead in blocks so using the rope in the anchor is somewhere between incompatible and a real pain.

Hanging at the anchor is a bit awkward, but you're not there that long and I don't usually do long multipitch with people I don't know at least a little bit. also, kinda like when you're rappelling, you can paste your feet on the wall and lean away from each other.

I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.

what about ways to avoid being in each others way when you're both at the hanging belay, w/o one person having to uncomfortably try to stay off to one side while the other climber sets up the rap and so on?

I don't know of any tricks for this, besides using a short sling and a long sling in order to lean to one side. At least you can set up your rap while separated. But eventually, on of you has to go to the middle.

3. at time either ... a. clip into chains/bolt with yr daisy/pas ... b. put a draw in the bolt and clip it and ask for take if yr pumped

4. set up a sliding X with the sling and biners ... big locker on the bottom of course ... no need for limiter knots ... you are climbing on bomber bolts or should be ... i don't clip the chains

5. clove into big locker

6. bring partner up

7. if they are leading then they can just take off .... always put a draw in one of the bolts and clip it to prevent a FF2

8. if youre gonna lead again ... they just put a locker through the anchor and clove hitch to this ... you flip the rope stack over ... and they put you on belay ... put a draw through the bolt ... and start climbing

simple ... lol

you can use 2 draws if you forget the anchor material ... just fig 8 or clove the 2 draws you set up for belay ... this works if yr swapping leads ... if yr always leading though youll need to take off each knot/draw one at a time (youll be hanging from 1 unlocked point unless u use yr daisy too) as your partner sets up .... or anchor on the chains initially for yourself ... or hope the bolts are big enough for all your draws (4 alttogheter)

setting up a sliding x is much faster as your partner doesnt have to muk around setting up their own anchor with their draws ... they just clip in with their own locker and clove ... just remember that each person should have the slings and biners

I don't see the anchor setup being any different from a non-hanging belay, except that you don't have a ledge to use for self-positioning, so you have to use gravity as best as you can.

what about ways to avoid being in each others way when you're both at the hanging belay, w/o one person having to uncomfortably try to stay off to one side while the other climber sets up the rap and so on?

I don't know of any tricks for this, besides using a short sling and a long sling in order to lean to one side. At least you can set up your rap while separated. But eventually, on of you has to go to the middle.

This really sucks if both of you are riding pigs.

put a draw at one of the bolts and run the line from yr harness to yr clove through there ... yr partner does the same to the other bolt ... when yr ready to start climbing both of you take off those draws so yr anchor is equalized ... on bomber bolts though it really wont matter

3. at time either ... a. clip into chains/bolt with yr daisy/pas ... b. put a draw in the bolt and clip it and ask for take if yr pumped

4. set up a sliding X with the sling and biners ... big locker on the bottom of course ... no need for limiter knots ... you are climbing on bomber bolts or should be ... i don't clip the chains

5. clove into big locker

6. bring partner up

7. if they are leading then they can just take off .... always put a draw in one of the bolts and clip it to prevent a FF2

8. if youre gonna lead again ... they just put a locker through the anchor and clove hitch to this ... you flip the rope stack over ... and they put you on belay ... put a draw through the bolt ... and start climbing

simple ... lol

you can use 2 draws if you forget the anchor material ... just fig 8 or clove the 2 draws you set up for belay ... this works if yr swapping leads ... if yr always leading though youll need to take off each knot/draw one at a time (youll be hanging from 1 unlocked point unless u use yr daisy too) as your partner sets up .... or anchor on the chains initially for yourself ... or hope the bolts are big enough for all your draws (4 alttogheter)

setting up a sliding x is much faster as your partner doesnt have to muk around setting up their own anchor with their draws ... they just clip in with their own locker and clove ... just remember that each person should have the slings and biners

The methods mentioned previously using just the rope and draws are simpler and require less special material (120 cm sling, random lockers). It's also more redundant (a single 120 cm sling is not redundant).

Moreover, you say that there is no need for limiter knots, because the bolts are bomber. If you clip two bolts, you assume there is a chance of one of them failing (ignoring the overkill equalization factor). Yet, you say there is no need to tie limiter knots whose sole functions are to help out when a bolt fails.

The methods mentioned previously using just the rope and draws are simpler and require less special material (120 cm sling, random lockers). It's also more redundant (a single 120 cm sling is not redundant).

Moreover, you say that there is no need for limiter knots, because the bolts are bomber. If you clip two bolts, you assume there is a chance of one of them failing (ignoring the overkill equalization factor). Yet, you say there is no need to tie limiter knots whose sole functions are to help out when a bolt fails.

Why the discrepancy?

the sliding X is not redundant only if the sling itself gets cut ... a single biner is not redundant ... but we use that for a belay ... a single rope is not redundant ... nor is the belay loop on your harness

the chances of any full strength part of your climbing system failing is basically zero ... which is why we dont all climb on double ropes

the chance of a bolt being rusted or being improperly put it is much greater than zero ... limiter knots are to limit the extention ...they actually reduce the strength of the sling to below full strength ... on 2 bolts the extention of a sliding X should not pull the other bolt ... if it does i recommend not climbing at all in that area ... lol

which is why we build our anchors of 2 bolts ...

a sliding X is faster to use unless your swapping leads all the time ... and it makes the belay a lot cleaner

the sliding X is not redundant only if the sling itself gets cut ... a single biner is not redundant ... but we use that for a belay ... a single rope is not redundant ... nor is the belay loop on your harness

Nothing you listed except for "sliding x" (and, I suppose, a single rope) can be realistically cut by falling rock. At least the single rope method mentioned above offers a bit more protection or can if modified slightly.

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the chances of any full strength part of your climbing system failing is basically zero ... which is why we dont all climb on double ropes

Failing under normal conditions, sure. Falling rock? You bet your ass a rope or a sling could get cut, especially under the tension of a hanging belay.

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the chance of a bolt being rusted or being improperly put it is much greater than zero ... limiter knots are to limit the extention

I agree with you on the purpose of a limiter knot.

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...they actually reduce the strength of the sling to below full strength ...

Yet, it is still plenty strong, so it does not matter.

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on 2 bolts the extention of a sliding X should not pull the other bolt ... if it does i recommend not climbing at all in that area ... lol

Considering one of the two bolts just pulled, are you willing to bet your life (and your partner's life? or for that matter the life of anyone that takes your advice?) on your guess that, say, a factor two fall that just pulled out one bolt will not pull out the other one?

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which is why we build our anchors of 2 bolts ...

I'm not arguing against using a minimum of two bolts for an anchor. I'm just asking why you think two bolts are necessary for the anchor while at the same time claiming that limiter knots are not necessary, citing the fact that the each individual bolt should be plenty strong.

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a sliding X is faster to use unless your swapping leads all the time ... and it makes the belay a lot cleaner

I definitely disagree that it is either faster or cleaner given that someone was equally familiar with both methods.

Edit: You posted what I pasted right underneath this, and it seems to be where you are confused (at least when discussing the length of time the anchor takes). If you re-read what I and others have posted, you will see that it is not correct to say that the anchor must be taken down. With two draws there are four carabiners. This is plenty for two people to build two anchors without sharing sharing carabiners.

bearbreeder wrote:

you can use 2 draws if you forget the anchor material ... just fig 8 or clove the 2 draws you set up for belay ... this works if yr swapping leads ... if yr always leading though youll need to take off each knot/draw one at a time (youll be hanging from 1 unlocked point unless u use yr daisy too) as your partner sets up .... or anchor on the chains initially for yourself ... or hope the bolts are big enough for all your draws (4 alttogheter)

setting up a sliding x is much faster as your partner doesnt have to muk around setting up their own anchor with their draws ... they just clip in with their own locker and clove ... just remember that each person should have the slings and biners

I'm saying there are better and faster ways of accomplishing the same goal. IF someone does insist on using a sliding x for an anchor, then in my humble opinion they should use limiter knots. Limiter knots would not only limit extension, they would also make a large portion of the sling redundant.

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i think u need to take a basic anchor course .... The only real problem with a sliding x is the extention on trad gear

Given that one bolt has already pulled, how much can you trust the other one? Moreover, it is not only an extension issue, but a redundancy issue, too. Extension becomes an issue when one bolt has already pulled, and redundancy (of the sling) is an issue when someone is at the anchor belaying (e.g., rock fall).

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if theres rockfall its WAY more likely to cut a 60 m rope than a 1.2 m sling at the belay

This would only be true if the 60 meter rope were under tension, which it is not when the leader is climbing.

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not only is a proper anchor setup faster on 2 bolts where there are no chains ... It creates less of a cluster fcuk ... And is more flexible

I agree, I just think the anchors mentioned previously using just the rope are proper, and in comparison, yours is not. Your method is not faster, it is not less of a clusterfuck, it is not more flexible, and it does not meet the criteria the OP mentioned of allowing each person to being out of the other's way at the belay. It also requires gear that would not otherwise be carried.

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you can use 2 draws ... But how are you guys going to clip 2 bolts with 4 draws unless the bolt holea are alwaya big enough... Or figure out the sequence of who ties in when with 2 draws

Two draws means four carabiners. I didn't say anything about using four draws. To figure out the sequence of who ties in when...perhaps you could read my original posts.

is your tie in from the harness to the clove redundant, this is under tension ... if not then there is no point in redundancy in yr sliding x ... not on bolts ...

if yr worried about weak bolts the LAST thing you would want to do is anchor off quickdraws ... build a serene anchor, which you can with the sling and biners

using only 2 quickdraws ... if yr not swapping leads ... then at some point both climbers will be only on non locking biner unless they leash themselves in seperately in addition to the clove ... or you use lockers on the draws

is your tie in from the harness to the clove redundant, this is under tension ... if not then there is no point in redundancy in yr sliding x ... not on bolts ...

By optionally doing a bunny ear figure 8 it could mostly be accomplished. I say mostly, because there would still be a part that would not be redundant, but it would certainly be less than the 120 cm of sling. Moreover, you can move the location of non-redundant part by trying to dodge any falling rock. With a sling with no limiter knots, this pragmatically impossible at a hanging belay. Alternatively, one could tie a figure 8 on a bight and clip it to the rope going through their tie-in points (this would be more of a cluster and would require an extra draw or locking biner, but it would be completely redundant). The big idea here is just that it's LESS work, LESS cluster, and LESS extra junk to use the rope instead of a ridiculous sling with extra lockers.

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if yr worried about weak bolts the LAST thing you would want to do is anchor off quickdraws ... build a serene anchor, which you can with the sling and biners

That depends on how you attach yourself to the sling. One could opt to very roughly equalize the forces by doing a bunny ear figure 8, too. Maximizing the use of the rope will create less stress. Moreover, if the bolts are weak then you cannot build a SRENE anchor using them regardless of what anchoring method is used.

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using only 2 quickdraws ... if yr not swapping leads ... then at some point both climbers will be only on non locking biner unless they leash themselves in seperately in addition to the clove ... or you use lockers on the draws

Have you even read the method's description? This is completely wrong. Well, it's true for the 0.5 seconds between tieing the first knot and the second knot, but each person could be kept on belay that entire time. There is no need to switch around carabiners or any other such junk.