DETROIT, MI -- U.S. Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Howell) called Obamacare a "drag on the economy" and Rep. Sander Levin (D-Royal Oak) called for "major reform" of the nation's surveillance system Monday at a Detroit Economic Club gathering downtown.

The two congressmen went back and forth on the health care reform, last month's government shutdown, the vulnerability of employee pensions in Detroit's bankruptcy and international surveillance.

On Obamacare
"There have been more cancellations of health care plans than there have been enrollees," said Rogers, pointing out flaws in the implementation of the Affordable Care Act. "... It's a drag on the economy."

He said that in addition to problems with the government's flawed health enrollment website, there have been Michigan employers in his district who have opted to cancel their workers' insurance plans, shift them over to the new health exchange market and pay a fine, rather than take on the extra costs of meeting new federal standards.

"All that is real," Rogers said. "That's not hypothetical."

Levin acknowledged that the website blunder has slowed the process, but said he expects the health care law to improve the lives of millions, including more than 1 million uninsured Michigan residents.

"I think we all need to remember where we started," Levin said. "We passed something to essentially fix a system that was broken... A million going to bed without health insurance, and essentially going to emergency rooms and not having the essential preventive care that most of us benefit from... There needed to be action. It wasn't working for 55 million people."

On the shutdown

Rogers said he regrets that a government shutdown was used last month by House Republicans in an unsuccessful attempt to secure a delay of health care reform.

"I don't think that we ought to use that as a political tool," he said.

He said the threat of shutting down government agencies has been used successfully in the past, but specifically for the purpose of reducing spending.

"That's not the way it went this go-around," Rogers said. "I think we'll see a different negotiating tactic... We cannot continue to spend money the way that we spend money. I hope the next around we get some actual spending reductions."

Levin said there have been efforts to cut spending.

"If you look at the last several years, there have been twice as many -- more than that -- cuts in the budget, than there were increases in revenue," he said. "It isn't true that we weren't willing to act. We need to do it in a balanced way. It's not correct that the president hasn't been willing to negotiate. He wasn't willing ot negotiate about shutting down the government."

On Detroit

The congressmen, who both served in the past as state legislators, were asked to weigh in on the question of Detroit employee pensions being at risk in the city's bankruptcy case despite being protected by the Michigan Constitution.

"I think we have to remember that people with pensions worked for those pensions," Levin said. "As far as I know there's never been a bankruptcy that essentially eliminated the vested pensions of people in a municipality... I think the average pension in Detroit is something like $20,000 (annually)... We can't be so removed that we just look at it mathematically. These are people."

Rogers said the city's revitalization depends on the ability to make difficult cuts.

"We can't continue to count on altruistic entrepreneurialism to the save the city," he said. "... If we don't get a handle on all of this cost structure, the city will look like it does for the next 20 years. We have so much to offer here, but we can't do it if we can't get through these really hard decisions."

On surveillance

The two were asked about government surveillance in the wake of revelations that the National Security Agency tapped the phone of German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Rogers chairs the House Intelligence Committee.

"We need to collect information that helps protect the United States," he said in a brief answer.

Rogers added after the gathering that it's important to distinguish between foreign intelligence operations and domestic surveillance.

"Candidly, we watch very closely to make sure they comport with the law on listening to Americans, that without a probable-cause warrant, they can't listen to Americans," he said. "We follow that very, very closely.

Rogers, a former FBI agent, said there are more spies from Russian and other Asian countries in the U.S. now than ever before, and that the threat of cyber attacks and loose nuclear materials make foreign intelligence as important than ever.

"The Russians are very pleased with the debate on reigning in our intelligence services," Rogers said. "... Al Qaeda is pretty tickled."

Levin said public concerns over surveillance are "clear and legitimate."

"We need to have major reform of our security system," he said. "We need to do so in a careful way...

"I think for most of the public, it's a surprise, the extent to which there's the ability to, and in some cases there was the carrying out, of tapping into private conversations. So I think it wasn't only Germany or other places where there was a concern... I think we need to, on a bipartisan basis, now have a very clear discussion as to the extent to which this kind of surveillance goes."