m0ng0 wrote:they can't sign top tier talent without massively overpaying, they can possibly get guys like Jacoby Ellsbury or Tim Lincecum because they have ties to the area but even that is a stretch. Do we outbid the yankees for maybe 330 mill for Robinson Cano? Do we overpay to keep Kendry Morales? What do we do with Montero?

Spending money just because we can is not always the best idea. Look at Texas, Angels, Blue Jays, Phillies and Yankees they threw lots of money at players and they are all sitting at home now also.

This point is lost on most Mariners fans because they have been let down so many times in the past..

"IF we just pulled the trick on this one player..."

Last year it was Josh Hamilton at 18million.... which would have hamstrung this organization even moreso than its apathetic ownership already do. But to many fans they just want to see SOMETHING that signals intent.

Thats the issue... its the lack of trust. We can look at sound financial decisions (although we were ready to dump a ton on Hamilton) play out and relate that Morse and 8 was no different than Hamilton at 18...(outside the injury, they were close in terms of numbers) the issue though is that the two closet onwers running the organization are seen as not pulling the strings instead of deftly playing the market.

Thus it is to be a Mariners fan... you obviously have a handful that are screaming "spend" just to show belief, to take a chance, etc... (to the point where someone on this board accused anyone defending not spending big on players as being the lead members of the Armstrong/Lincoln fan club)

But that only works for a handful of teams in the current MLB environment. I'd rather try and be the Pirates and A's and Rays than the Angels, Rangers and Red Sox.

The pitching staff on this club is a very, very good one... much like the A's and Pirates and Rays. the young players have not all worked out (Smoak did finish with 20 HRs and a respectable .250 batting average).

So now the management has a true conundrum (or a chance to show it truly cares about this club and its fanbase)... make the right moves in the Winter and this team instantly becomes a very good team just based on its rotation and bullpen.

Will they do it? and what are those moves? its an interesting winter, and as Mongo pointed out the free agent class isnt exactly brimming with top end talent.

.250 is not a respectable average for a firsdt baseman that is suppose to be a full time starter, that is what you expect from a guy that historically has been a SS or your weakest hitter, respectable .275 to .290 for a power guy. I guess when you are screaming for decency your expectations of average dwindle.

To Be P/C or Not P/C That is the Question..........Seahawks kick Ass !!!! Check your PM's, Thank you for everything Radish RIP My Friend. Member of the 38 club.

chris98251 wrote:.250 is not a respectable average for a firsdt baseman that is suppose to be a full time starter, that is what you expect from a guy that historically has been a SS or your weakest hitter, respectable .275 to .290 for a power guy. I guess when you are screaming for decency your expectations of average dwindle.

sorry, he bat .237. its respectable for Justin Smoak was the point... but yeah, josh hamiltons 21 HRs and .250 average at 18 million (without the obligatory Smoak time in the minors) was the right move... and we all know who screamed for that.

No really good FA will consider the Ms given the situation. It is not a hitters park and that is what we need. Aaron was right when he said after the park opened balls just die. No manager a clueless front office what a mess. I would do:

Trade 2 or more of the the better prospects and position players for players under contract. No one is untouchable. No one is that good except for our 1-2 pitchers. I would even listen if it was a knock you over offer.

It's the only way I can see this happening. I don't trust Z both the players he wanted, Upton and Hamilton did nothing. His trades moved good players for squat. Frankly I would let him go too. I don't like his plan. Whatever formula is uses to evaluate players is not working. How has he earned even one more year ? This team is worse not better.

Try to poach a good GM. Give Robby Thompson a shot at manager. Better to throw crazy money at a GM that knows what he is doing then a player. Z was a good scout, that's it. No track record as GM just as an assistant in Milwaukee . Why did we thing he would be able to do it ? He has failed. Next man up works in baseball too IMO.

Happypuppy wrote:No really good FA will consider the Ms given the situation. It is not a hitters park and that is what we need. Aaron was right when he said after the park opened balls just die. No manager a clueless front office what a mess. I would do:

Trade 2 or more of the the better prospects and position players for players under contract. No one is untouchable. No one is that good except for our 1-2 pitchers. I would even listen if it was a knock you over offer.

It's the only way I can see this happening. I don't trust Z both the players he wanted, Upton and Hamilton did nothing. His trades moved good players for squat. Frankly I would let him go too. I don't like his plan. Whatever formula is uses to evaluate players is not working. How has he earned even one more year ? This team is worse not better.

Try to poach a good GM. Give Robby Thompson a shot at manager. Better to throw crazy money at a GM that knows what he is doing then a player. Z was a good scout, that's it. No track record as GM just as an assistant in Milwaukee . Why did we thing he would be able to do it ? He has failed. Next man up works in baseball too IMO.

Unless you can get Billy Beane from Oakland it doesn't really matter IMHO whom your GM and manager are when under restraints of the upper FO.

Sports Hernia wrote:Unless you can get Billy Beane from Oakland I doesn't really matter IMHO whom your GM and manager are when under restraints of the upper FO.

I agree, but it's not just the front office the owners are the ones with the $$. According the ex Times beat writer for the Ms Geoff Baker today on KJR paraphrased said the ownership has increased the valuation of the team to a billion. One of he ways is no long term contracts. Payroll has decreased every year since 2008 when the other teams in our division have been increasing. http://blogs.seattletimes.com/mariners/ ... osing-big/

I am really tired of it. They know they guaranteed X when the play in other cities based on the MLB contracts. They have to just sell the fans a pretty picture of " these kids will be great " and trot out a minor league level team and a certain number of fans by in. It's works too... The team with the lowest payroll ( Houston) also had the largest profits this year.

We the residents and the fans built them the park. They owe us a competitive team. If they won't , sell it.

I won't listen anymore to there hope and a dream propaganda, instead I will only look at what is the result not what is said. Right now as an organization my grade for them is a solid F

Last edited by Happypuppy on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I used to attend about 10 games a year... Since 2010 I've only gone to opening day due to it being a yearly tradition for us. Other than that, they get none of my money. I also used to buy a new cap every year, but haven't done that either!

What Z didn't do importantly this season was trade away Raul Ibanez. Ibanez hit 24 homers and 56 RBIs in 277 at-bats with a .267 average before All Star Break.

Kendrys Morales also should had been traded, Switch Hitter that can play 1b, and his stats are not that bad. 280 with 14 homers and 54 RBIs and guess what, he's a free agent, and we could had got something out of him, but nope.

Sports Hernia wrote:Honest question for Uncle Si: Why does the fanbase not trust Lincoln and Armstrong from your POV???

And how do those 2 guys regain the trust of a jilted fanbase besides the obvious answer which is to win more?

Its difficult. I mean we want to win. They need to show intent to winning. I understand they have a philosophy (allegedly) and then I'm not as bent by not overspending for players.

But have a philosophy. Be something the fan base can identify with. We know what JS is willing to do for the Seahawks. Even if it doesn't work we've all bought into it ( or at least recognize the efforts)

Those two are enigmas to Ms fans. By all accounts they tried to sign Fielder Hamilton and trade for Upton... Yet no one really believes it because none has any idea what their plan is.

Put a winning product out there... Or at least let us all in on what the future of the franchise is.

What Z didn't do importantly this season was trade away Raul Ibanez. Ibanez hit 24 homers and 56 RBIs in 277 at-bats with a .267 average before All Star Break.

Kendrys Morales also should had been traded, Switch Hitter that can play 1b, and his stats are not that bad. 280 with 14 homers and 54 RBIs and guess what, he's a free agent, and we could had got something out of him, but nope.

No one was giving anything of value for two vet players on one year deals. I understand the logic but I'm fairly certain the return would have been very low...

Remember the trade deadline saw very little movement this year... No one was all that interested in an ibanez when a player like morneau goes for nothing

Sports Hernia wrote:Honest question for Uncle Si: Why does the fanbase not trust Lincoln and Armstrong from your POV???

And how do those 2 guys regain the trust of a jilted fanbase besides the obvious answer which is to win more?

Its difficult. I mean we want to win. They need to show intent to winning. I understand they have a philosophy (allegedly) and then I'm not as bent by not overspending for players.

But have a philosophy. Be something the fan base can identify with. We know what JS is willing to do for the Seahawks. Even if it doesn't work we've all bought into it ( or at least recognize the efforts)

Those two are enigmas to Ms fans. By all accounts they tried to sign Fielder Hamilton and trade for Upton... Yet no one really believes it because none has any idea what their plan is.

Put a winning product out there... Or at least let us all in on what the future of the franchise is.

Fair enough. My main point is they are their own worst enemy. I just cannot wrap my head around how after failing pretty much for the last 10 seasons the same folks responsible for said failures all of the sudden are going to rite the ship.

The success of the 2 main tennants across the street really contrasts how teams that are run the right way (Hawks, Sounders) vs teams ran the wrong way (mariners).

And to mention the Hawks have to deal with a salary cap vs none in baseball, so it should have been much easier to turn the M's around vs the Hawks IMHO. As a lifelong M's fan I'm starting to feel indifferent towards the team, and judging by attendance numbers I'm not alone.

Throw in the fact that Howard is trying to block the Sonics/NHL arena pisses me off to no end and just shows how out of touch with reality he is. He needs to concentrate on putting a winning team on the field, and if he does that he doesn't have to worry about any potential competition from he NBA and NHL.

It's easy to see what they are doing. They are just talking the talk..... We are going to do this... Or that... We don't want to " overspend" ( I am not an idiot. The market decides the cost, not the Ms...sorry Ms ) ... They managed to save enough pennies to by ROOT. Why? Because it increases the valuation.

The owners just want to make as much money as they can. The Front Office gets the marching orders from them. As we have seen since 2008 started they could care less about a pennant contending team unless it can be built on the cheap. They understand that there are a lot of " True Believers " that coin lovingly little ditties like " In Jack we trust ". They will buy in year after year... Sad really.

Sports Hernia is right, Paul Allen is the polar opposite. He cares about winning and has quality teams that we love. He still make a lot of money, I am sure. He is a true icon of the PNW.

Happypuppy wrote:It's easy to see what they are doing. They are just talking the talk..... We are going to do this... Or that... We don't want to " overspend" ( I am not an idiot. The market decides the cost, not the Ms...sorry Ms ) ... They managed to save enough pennies to by ROOT. Why? Because it increases the valuation.

The owners just want to make as much money as they can. The Front Office gets the marching orders from them. As we have seen since 2008 started they could care less about a pennant contending team unless it can be built on the cheap. They understand that there are a lot of " True Believers " that coin lovingly little ditties like " In Jack we trust ". They will buy in year after year... Sad really.

Sports Hernia is right, Paul Allen is the polar opposite. He cares about winning and has quality teams that we love. He still make a lot of money, I am sure. He is a true icon of the PNW.

yeah, the attendance really shows how well we are all "buying in" each year.

Its pretty easy to show the faults in the organization. we all recognize it. youre not offering anything new or enlightening. many disagree that the club needs to throw big money at free agents versus a more efficient plan. you seem to think that makes us "true believers" or "apologists".. no.. it makes us effing fans desperate to see their team brought back to its former glory. if you were a fan of the Seahawks in the 90s through the lean years of the Holmgren era just to get to where we are now you should understand.

The point that I'm making is that we have no idea what Howard and Lincoln's plans are, which makes them awful leaders of the club. We can say that all they care about is money, and you've obviously chosen to look at their potential expenditures over the last few years as cynical at best. fine... its hard to argue (although this isnt the CIA, so I tend to lean towards they really did want to buy Fielder then Hamilton and were willing to trade for Upton).

The only way to resolve it is to win. If we went out an spent a ton Cano it would generate both eye rolls and frantic applause, because noone has any idea what the direction the team is trying to go (are we a young team built on the shoulders of burgeoning talent sprinkled with a strong vet presence? are we a young team that wants to use its talent to trade for and buy big talents? are we a young team that just sucks and will always suck?)

But again, thats my point, these two are not believable, and as you said are the polar opposites of Paul Allen, who as an owner has had many downs in his choices. lets be honest. the seahawks are great right now. But Allen has made many mistakes over the years that have frustrated the fans to no end... his one saving grace is that we all believe that he's trying to win, and thats all we care about.

Lincoln and Armstrong dont offer that. hell, would any of us even be able to pick them out in a semi crowded room?

Anyone see the transcript of Lincoln on the Mariners after the 2013 season?

How do you sell this team to fans? If two fans were standing here right now and asked, ‘Why should we spend our money to go see your product?’ What do you tell them?

"First I’d tell them that when you get to Safeco Field you are going to have a safe, friendly environment. You are going to be sitting in a first class ballpark. You are going to get great entertainment. It’s a great place to come whether it’s at the Pen or at Edgar’s or wherever. So there’s a lot of things going on at Safeco Field for the fans to enjoy besides watching major league baseball. And I would point that out to them. Many of our fans are thinking about things other than just what’s on the field, so we have to provide a really good entertainment experience across the board as well as getting that major league team to perform.

DHawk wrote:Anyone see the transcript of Lincoln on the Mariners after the 2013 season?

How do you sell this team to fans? If two fans were standing here right now and asked, ‘Why should we spend our money to go see your product?’ What do you tell them?

"First I’d tell them that when you get to Safeco Field you are going to have a safe, friendly environment. You are going to be sitting in a first class ballpark. You are going to get great entertainment. It’s a great place to come whether it’s at the Pen or at Edgar’s or wherever. So there’s a lot of things going on at Safeco Field for the fans to enjoy besides watching major league baseball. And I would point that out to them. Many of our fans are thinking about things other than just what’s on the field, so we have to provide a really good entertainment experience across the board as well as getting that major league team to perform.

My problem is this fan base seems to think forkling a 100 million out to a vet is the answer to everything, success is when you can see talent and bring it in before they hit the big time. Thats the scouts and GM. You don't buy a team typically and be successful, it may draw fans in becasue of name recognition but rarely sustains a winning organazation long before that 100 million dollar player is injured or falls off. You can piece work a few piece here and there but you have to know what your looking at as a core and how it fits your ball park and the rest of the team. Bringing in a series of slapstick hitters when there is no speed on the bases is dumb, doing it and having them hit for lousy average is a suicide receipe for a team.

I have heard people say the ball dies at Safeco etc, if so why do teams come in here and win games with the long ball so much against us, you would think if built correctly we would have a assembled team that takes advantage of the home field limitations on hitters, not struggle more ourselves.

Oh and the comment by Lincoln about ball park expereience being more important then the base ball game, sounds a lot like the City Council when the Sonics left town and they said that Poetry reading and the Ice Capades could make up for the Sonics dates in the Key.

As far asa Wedge goes, didn't he have a stroke or a Heart Attack this year or something to that effect, I could see him wanting to step away from a real stressful situation for health reasons alone.

To Be P/C or Not P/C That is the Question..........Seahawks kick Ass !!!! Check your PM's, Thank you for everything Radish RIP My Friend. Member of the 38 club.

Good riddance.Eric Wedge personally caused more games to be lost these last 3 years, with his sketchy pitching changes, and inflexible game strategies than any other single factor, including injuries & FO debacles. Its not a heart issue with him...its a brain issue.Uh, Buh-bye.

Wedge was only a small part of the problem. The cancer of the M's (the 2 who will not be talked about) still remain, and as long as they are still running things expect the same results. It really is that simple. The manager is irrelevant if the bean counters and talent evaluators fail at their jobs.

Any bit would go a long way, players don't want to play for no bodies. Dusty Baker should come in, but this team is hell bent on mediocrity. They'll likely hire one of their batting coaches or some bum from Triple A with zero experience at the major league level.

Those in charge are doing a great job of running this team, straight into the ground.

Hard to get excited, spend money on, or even root for this franchise as it currently sits.

Any bit would go a long way, players don't want to play for no bodies. Dusty Baker should come in, but this team is hell bent on mediocrity. They'll likely hire one of their batting coaches or some bum from Triple A with zero experience at the major league level.

Those in charge are doing a great job of running this team, straight into the ground.

Hard to get excited, spend money on, or even root for this franchise as it currently sits.

Howard Lincoln doesn't like to be called out, challenged, or told what he needs to do to make the ballclub better. He just wants a "yes man" that will "just be happy to be a MLB manager" that wont rock the boat, winning be damned.

Any bit would go a long way, players don't want to play for no bodies. Dusty Baker should come in, but this team is hell bent on mediocrity. They'll likely hire one of their batting coaches or some bum from Triple A with zero experience at the major league level.

Those in charge are doing a great job of running this team, straight into the ground.

Hard to get excited, spend money on, or even root for this franchise as it currently sits.

The problem with this is no manager with "clout" is going to want to come to Seattle and work for this front office.

You are absolutely entitled to state your opinion whenever you wish, and I am absolutely entitled to point out the stupidity of that opinion with the same frequency.

Good step with not retaining Wedge but they really need to ditch Jack Z. I cant remember the last time a bad manager like him was overrated so much from the fanbase. Hes made bad decision after bad decision but because he started out relatively well at the start of his time here hes looked at as a pretty good manager and not the problem. Just proves the power of a good first impression.

therealjohncarlson wrote:Good step with not retaining Wedge but they really need to ditch Jack Z. I cant remember the last time a bad manager like him was overrated so much from the fanbase. Hes made bad decision after bad decision but because he started out relatively well at the start of his time here hes looked at as a pretty good manager and not the problem. Just proves the power of a good first impression.

I'm not going to defend Wedge but he isn't the main reason the M's are craptastic. It's lack of talent on offense. Any manager would struggle with this team. This team is more interested in selling you the " great ball park experience" than putting a playoff contending team on the field.