Frantisek,
FYI, the $100 disappeared from a small separate jar put aside in a closed
plastic box on one of the shelves, not from the large jar sitting out in the
open.
The compromise between openness and practicality currently adopted elsewhere
in the space is transparent, locked boxes. This appears to work.
Regarding our discussion of the current situation, I've asked Miloh to put
aside the money we made at 5MoF tonight while we await the verdict of the
community on this matter. Hope this satisfies you for now.
/Rikke
On Apr 22, 2011 1:11 AM, <algoldor at frantisekapfelbeck.org> wrote:
> Hi Rikke,
> I take it from this point of view:
>> Open donation bin gives you a chance to give money in and also take
> them out. If you take money on regular bases you will see what is the
> current situation. More cash equals to people are acknowledging
> Tastebridge and realising the needs to support it and doing so. Low
> cash means that the activity of Tastebridge is either low or not
> directed properly or/and there is a person/s in the space which are
> being unexcelent. The second is very important to notice and it can
> oscillate. Once you see this trend it's time for discussion probably
> all the way to the big general meeting and trying to find solutions
> which deal with the cause not with the result.
>> Concerning the locked box versus the money somewhere else I think that
> we may not understand each other here. To have a large quantities of
> money accumulated on one spot is a moral challenge increasing the
> temptation with increase of the amount. Do not ask me why is that so,
> I just see clear signs of it. People would kind of pass $5 in the
> donation box but $50 would be more tempting for many. It may not apply
> to everyone but I feel that it works for majority. To be honest on a
> personal touching note when I've heard while ago that you
> (Tastebridge) have lost $100 from a budget I though ?what the fuck!?.
> How that could happen? They did not move the cash out? It is a
> donation box not a temptation trap :-)))
>> I'm active in many open communities and I'm challenged many times on
> the ground of as open as possible versus functional. Therefore the
> solution of taking money out on regular basis worked before from the
> point of view of openness and functionality. It was just an extra work
> but it also shown some important patterns which I really appreciated.
> I knew that we have been loosing some cash, but it was under 20% (most
> of the time it was zero, I've kept an eye on it). I'm ideologist but a
> practical one, meaning that I do as much as I can to push the
> idea/concept through but I've realized that I've to pay the attention
> to the social behaviour of people around me and adjust the techniques
> how to rich the goal so the journey to it is fun and works for the
> ones who are on it. My question would be ?do you think that in these
> days in Noisebridge the concept of taking the cash out on more or less
> regular basis would prevent the problems?. Because the cash box first
> cause is to give a chance people to contribute to Tastebridge not to
> sponsor someone not being affiliated with the project, if you have a
> strong feeling that the previous approach doesn't work, well that
> would be bad. A big part of our budget was covered in the past from
> the 5 min of fame, underground markets and direct donations to
> Tastebridge but all of that needs a lots of time and effort which my
> be not available now, implying that donation box is the major source
> of resources now and it's abuse is threatening the project. It is hard
> for me to say because I do not know how are we doing on regular bases.
> Concerning finances, to make a budget and keep the regular updates
> about it is vital for the projects but I've found it very time
> consuming. Personally I've to make myself to do it and it is not easy.
>> So long story short this is how I liked it and how it worked before,
> if not applicable any more I would be for an open discussion on the
> mailing list to find the solution other than a closed box. If people
> do not pay enough attention to it, than it will have to be your way
> because I can not help directly. Past - taking money out on regular
> basis would gave us a nice set of data showing lots of interesting
> things about the community, it lowered the misuse to bearable level or
> non and it was nice and open. However it is time consuming. That is my
> personal experience and preference and as I've stated several times
> very important part of the concept.
>> I'm glad to hear that you were trying to avoid closed box solution so
> long, I appreciate it as your involvement in bio hacking in general.
> We certainly have another points of view on some things but it can not
> be otherwise because I believe we have both strong visions and we go
> after it. Sometimes dramas happen but they cost time and effort and
> I've another four emails from Japan to enjoy and I'm sure that you
> have also plenty to do :-)).
>> I'm going to send this response to Sean I hope it is OK with you. I
> can edit a version for the Tastebridge mailing list (during the day),
> so it doesn't have exact ?links? to your email (you mentioned off the
> list at the beginning) but if you are OK with posting this I would do
> it once you confirm.
>> Best of luck with the projects, I hope the misunderstandings are over.
>> Sincerely,
>> Frantisek
>>>>> Quoting Rikke Rasmussen <rikke.c.rasmussen at gmail.com>:
>>> Alright, let's do this off-list, then.
>>>> I still fail to see why you think it is better for one person to have the
>> money somewhere else (whether hidden in the space or somewhere else
>> entirely), than to have a bunch of people with keys to a box in the
space,
>> possibly even a hidden key or a combination lock?
>>>> To me, it still seems a better option than removing the money, but this
is
>> probably where our basic points of view differ?
>>>> I put the mail out before I put a box in the fridge exactly to elicit
>> feedback from the community. Noisebridge it is still a doocracy, and we
are
>> all responsible for keeping it excellent - if you had been around, you
would
>> know that I have been very reluctant to even consider the option of a
locked
>> box, and have resisted taking this step for months in spite of locks
>> appearing on boxes throughout the space.
>>>> I take it personally because I feel like you're suggesting I don't get
>> Noisebridge culture/principles just because I don't do things the same
way
>> you used to.
>>>> /Rikke
>>>>>>>>>>> Greetings to all!
>>> I think that Rubin's email is kind of saying what I mean, some of his
>>> suggestions are very "fresh ones" but that is the reason why I like
>>> them. He uses open approach, with hammer in his hand sometimes but
>>> open ...
>>>>>> I send close emails to people if I think that it is better to discuss
>>> things with them first off the list, it is a usual practice done by
>>> many Noisebridge members who I value. I do not have a problem if
>>> someone posts my emails, I hope I'm clear here. To be absolutely
>>> honest I meant to send it to discuss too but I've failed, not for the
>>> first time.
>>>>>> I do express my opinion if I do not agree with something. I'm trying
>>> not to let things happen if I believe it is not a good idea. Your post
>>> saying basically "I'm closing the donation box if you want a key you
>>> can talk to me" without discussing this option on Noisebridge or
>>> Tastebridge mailing list is not as good as it could be. It is not just
>>> me who is not at SF just right now, Fabian, Benni, Josh and others are
>>> now also away and I think that they should have a chance to say what
>>> they think about it too.
>>>>>> Concerning where the money stays. I've found that to have larger
>>> quantities of money out of sight works fine because as I've said
>>> before "no temptation". Think of Noisebridge in a larger scale, most
>>> of the time no keys to donation bins and no large amounts of money in
>>> them, money sits somewhere safe. It seems to me fine and it works. If
>>> there are for the last few months locks on the jars I hope it is just
>>> temporary and I doubt there are on all donation bins in the space.
>>>>>> If my comments are not welcomed I'm sorry but I do believe this is an
>>> important matter and I really hope that another than "lock them out"
>>> option is going to be used. I should maybe not use the phrasing that I
>>> do not want to interfere, my fault, sorry. I do want to interfere.
>>>>>> I think that you take this personally. I can ensure you that if Mitch
>>> posted that he wants to lock the Tastebridge donation bin I would ask
>>> him to try another solution.
>>>>>> If I did not make you realise what I'm talking about I'm sorry. I've
>>> tried but your points of view on this matter may be too different, we
>>> should wait and see what the community thinks of it. If they are fine
>>> with closed box I'll be not particularly happy but I think that I can
>>> live with it.
>>>>>> Peace and love,
>>>>>> Frantisek
>>>>>>>>> RUBIN'S EMAIL
>>>>>> I for one see this as a message from a higher being, telling us that
>>> kombucha is a source of evil that will eventually consume Noisebridge in
>>> a fury of fermented tea and bacteria growth that has the consistency of
>>> ham.
>>>>>> OR there are a growing number of interesting people inhabiting
>>> (infesting?) the space that no one has stopped to inform them who we
>>> are, what we do, and how we operate as a group.
>>>>>> Note 1: Noisebridge operates well when it isn't taken advantage of.
>>>>>> Note 2: It's easy to take advantage of something when you don't
>>> understand (or when no one has introduced you to the concept).
>>>>>> --
>>> Rubin Abdi
>>>rubin at starset.net>>>>>>>>> Hi Frantisek,
>>>>>> Please explain something to me: In your opinion, what is the
>>> difference between having somebody take the money home (a treasurer)
>>> and having a box in the space that anyone may have a key to? It's also
>>> a little hard to take your talk of openness seriously when it's only
>>> happening in closed emails.
>>>>>> You're not just interfering, you're trying to run the show, and it's
>>> not unwelcome. Please stop.
>>>>>>>>> /Rikke
>>>>>> P.S.: Thanks for the offer, but we've already got a hook-up through Om
>>> Shan Tea House, so I think we'll be alright.
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:32 AM, <algoldor at frantisekapfelbeck.org>
wrote:
>>>>>> Look Rikke,
>>> Most support which we got from people to start the project and to
>>> keep it running was given by people who are directly against charging
>>> fees for classes because of the openness of Noisebridge and strongly
>>> arguing against any locked boxes which have appeared quite recently
>>> and were unwelcome by many. It is just as it is, good or bad doesn't
>>> matter, I take it as a fact.
>>>>>> It is hard for me to know how Tastebridge is doing because there
>>> are close to no posts on the Tastebrige webpages or on the discuss
>>> lists. I've lowered the amount of my posts partly because I wanted to
>>> create more space for others to go ahead. And yes also because it
>>> takes a hell of time to keep thing like this alive and vibrant and
>>> I've my limitations.
>>>>>> I do understand that people have different amounts of time, again
>>> that is fact. I've just been trying to remind ways which we have used
>>> before to get money and which worked. We have been loosing money on
>>> donations before as Noisebridge did. It is not a new thing. I just
>>> strongly feel that the gain from having it open over weight the amount
>>> of money loosed if managed well.
>>>>>> Concerning the openness of access that is questionable. After
>>> doing this for a while I've still always open box on my events and
>>> during my activities. I think it is not just cool, it works at least
>>> for me and I hoped it could be sustainable for Tastebridge too. I just
>>> do not think that this system is necessary.
>>>>>> I've expressed my opinion, that is all what I can do now so I do
>>> not interfere too much.
>>>>>> If you take the road of locked system, so be it but I would love
>>> to see another solution how to keep the budget in plus numbers and
>>> donation box open. If you feel that the time constrain is too big, I
>>> would understand of course. However taking money on regular basis has
>>> the advantage of not tempting too much. I think that to see $5 and $50
>>> lying on a table is for many people different grade of temptation.
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> Frantisek
>>>>>> PS Please do not feel harmed that is certainly not an intention
>>> of my comments. However I've a strong view on some things and that is
>>> one of the reason why I'm able to get support to do things from some
>>> people and quite gaining quite nothing from others.
>>>>>> PS II. It may be that I'll apply in the future the closed box
>>> system too, but I hope I'll not have to. I would have to be strongly
>>> forced to do so. It may be hard to explain but this is one of the
>>> things which is important for me and for the projects which I run.
>>>>>> PS III. I may ask Three Stone Hearths if they would be OK to make
>>> some order for us for whole sale prices. They would not be probably
>>> very happy about it mostly because it would complicate their
>>> accounting system.
>>>>>>>>> Quoting Rikke Rasmussen <rikke.c.rasmussen at gmail.com>:
>>>>>> Frantisek,
>>>>>> It's not a matter of people not donating - on the contrary,
>>> we've been doing
>>> fine just with the weekly kombucha and a little food here and
>>> there - it's a
>>> matter of us having very deliberately *not* having locked
>>> away or removed
>>> any funds, exactly because no one wants to have to make any
>>> decisions that
>>> detract from the openness of our community, and someone then
>>> having taken
>>> advantage of that openness.
>>>>>> Don't see the principal difference between a treasurer
>>> removing the money
>>> and a locked box in the fridge that anyone can get keys and
>>> access to? It
>>> wouldn't be the only donation box in the space with a lock on
>>> it, either.
>>>>>> Stocks have been managed better than you might expect - we're
>>> still running
>>> on the last of what you bought just before you left. I thank
>>> you for the
>>> advice, but while I appreciate that Tastebridge was your full-time
>>> occupation, none of us currently have that option, and I
>>> can't help but feel
>>> a little hurt by the implication that it can't function any
>>> other way. I
>>> think we've been doing really well, all things considered.
>>>>>>>>> /Rikke
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck
>>> <algoldor at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Rikke,
>>> I understand your frustration but I really strongly feel
>>> that locked
>>> donation box solution is not a good solution, the project
>>> would be harmed
>>> considerably. There is a very strong part of Noisebridge
>>> which is against
>>> locking anything within the community. In this case I
>>> think that distance
>>> doesn't matter, another solution should be applied.
>>>>>> I do not know strategies what are the current Tastebridge
>>> strategies to
>>> accumulate resources and I've not seen any numbers being
>>> published recently
>>> of how do we do but based on previous experience:
>>> - the Tuesday member dinner worked fine and donations
>>> were collected and
>>> counted directly so no problem there, just leave few
>>> dollars in the box
>>> ($1-10)
>>> - the underground markets are hard to prepare for but it
>>> is an amazing way
>>> how to get resources too and again fully controlled with
>>> no strings attached
>>> - other option which helped before is send an email to
>>> the community to ask
>>> for resources for the brewing program to continue (I can do
>>> that)
>>> - of course taking out money on regular bases should work
>>> fine if some one
>>> is around to do so. I bet someone trusty even not
>>> affiliated to Tastebridge
>>> would do it. Again leaving $1-10 in the donation box and
>>> having the donation
>>> box on as much stable position worked fine for months.
>>>>>> I'm sending this to you in person so you can think about
>>> that. If you go
>>> this way you will loose more than you gain and I'll have
>>> to comment on this
>>> because this was, is and will be one of the fundamental
>>> principles behind
>>> Tastebridge - open as much as possible. People who
>>> supported Tastebridge in
>>> the past are mostly strongly against the locking
>>> solutions. I know that very
>>> well and yes I'm one of them too and there are very
>>> strong reasons for that.
>>>>>> So please try to take care about that in a different
>>> manner I do not have a
>>> problem to write to some folks to try to get some
>>> resources. Once the
>>> ingredients are bought they last quite a while if managed
>>> well. I think the
>>> major problem is the money management, someone has to be
>>> "treasurer" for
>>> Tastebridge and really take care about it. I'm using
>>> Tastebridge as a
>>> concept where ever I go and it works but it is not easy
>>> sometimes but I
>>> deeply feel it is worth it.
>>>>>> If it happens that Tastebridge in Noisebridge will become
>>> inactive that is
>>> life. I'll and many others will be sorry but I'll
>>> continue to promote the
>>> idea somewhere else and I'll revive it once in San
>>> Francisco again it will
>>> take just a little bit longer than if it was kept running.
>>>>>> Best of luck and enjoy the "painful thorns" of the beauty
>>> of the open
>>> movement :-))
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> Frantisek
>>>>>> PS I'm going to post very short note asking you to
>>> reconsider, if you want
>>> post this email that is absolutely fine do so preferably
>>> to both lists.
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Rikke Rasmussen <rikke.c.rasmussen at gmail.com>
>>> *To:* Tastebridge <tastebridge at lists.noisebridge.net>;
>>>noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net;
>>>biobridge at lists.noisebridge.net>>> *Sent:* Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:46 AM
>>> *Subject:* [Noisebridge-discuss] The Mystery of the
>>> Disappearing Donations
>>>>>> Hey people,
>>>>>> Amanda and I have bottled yet another batch of kombucha
>>> for y'all to enjoy
>>> - they're currently sitting on the Tastebridge shelf,
>>> awaiting refrigeration
>>> tomorrow.
>>>>>> Am much dismayed to note, however, that the Tastebridge
>>> donation jar (the
>>> small screw top one we keep our funds in) currently
>>> contains only $9.00 (6
>>> of which were put in tonight, and down from ~$35.00 on
>>> Monday night) -
>>> nowhere near enough to replenish our almost depleted
>>> stock of tea and sugar
>>> (base ingredients). This basically means that we've got
>>> barely enough for
>>> another batch, and won't be able to make any more unless
>>> money magically
>>> reappears. I'll immediately take the (painful!) step of
>>> putting a locked box
>>> in the fridge for kombucha donations - anyone who feels
>>> they should have a
>>> key can ask me for one.
>>>>>> Sorry folks, but this really sucks. Please help me make
>>> sure this doesn't
>>> happen again.
>>>>>> /Rikke
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tastebridge mailing list
>>>Tastebridge at lists.noisebridge.net>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/tastebridge>>>>>>>>-------------- next part --------------
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