This is a "Heads up!" warning that Entertainment Weekly has some major plot spoilers. Unfortunately, I had no clue about this, and when I visited /Film, they put the major spoiler in the article's title!

Nice!

Thus, in inviso-text below, I'm going to quote Mark Hamill on this major plot point, and I'll make a few comments on it as well...

“[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was thechosenone, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character. And he is betrayed, with tragic consequences. Luke feels responsible for that. That’s the primary obstacle he has to rejoining the world and his place in the Jedi hierarchy, you know? It’s that guilt, that feeling that it’s his fault, that he didn’t detect the darkness in him until it was too late.”

It seems that The Solution then to the whole "Anakin was The Chosen One" is to now NOT make him The Chosen One. This flies completely in the face of Lucas' statements, and all of the products produced before Disney purchased the franchise. In the Force-spirit heavy episodes (THREE of them!) "Overlords, Altar of Mortis," and "Ghosts of Mortis," the Gray-Sided godlike Father declares Anakin to be The Chosen One (follow the links to the respective episodes found here for more info: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_wielder ). If this is canon (and it is), then surely Luke must know about this (he has ghost-Obi, ghost-Yoda and ghost-Daddy to consult in detail with), and yet he still somehow believes that Ben Solo is the prophesied savior and not his father.

Why so?

How so?

Did Luke discover information about this super-Dark-Side presence that gave him a better context as to what his father "really" achieved on the Death Star II...? If so, then Luke should've shared the information with Lucas before he wrote the films, laid out the bible for all of the Star Wars products, and oversaw the TV series.

I don't know how to react to this. My knee-jerk reaction is to get angry at the laziness of taking this approach, but at the same time, it's challenging to think of another solution to what The Force Awakens opened up.

We know that from Disney's canonical novels, comic books and video games that Darth Sidious was aware for YEARS that there was a tremendously powerful Dark Side source outside of known space. This new Disney material forces the solution, doesn't it? If there's a Dark Side presence MORE powerful than Palpatine, then, guess what? He's NOT the top villain. We were only led to believe that he was. I guess that Lucas didn't really know what he was talking about. Thus Anakin's tossing of Sidious' remains down the Death Star's gullet is merely him discarding a Dark Side lieutenant down the tubes. It's not him bringing Balance to the Force. That can only be done by taking on the REAL numero uno, which I'm forced to now presume, is Snoke. With Anakin dead, we now need the real, this time "for sure," Chosen One to take him on. To me, all of the arrows now point to Kylo Ren as being THAT redemptive hero. Maybe Rey, or maybe...

Meh.

Whatever.

Lazy. Unimaginative. Predictable. But, it's hard for me to condemn them for this mediocre approach, for they're the ones who painted themselves in to this damned-tight corner. They have to get out some way, don't they?

At this point, Snoke and his Sidious' aping scheme is just plain boring. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised by the character in TLJ.

Hamill could have meant that Ben was considered to be The Chosen One of his time. That take wouldn't step-on Anakin's (and Lucas') story.

Still, Disney is letting the ST plot be shaped as they go along. And, the Story Group can only point-out retcons, and not prevent them. So, it's possible that Disney is carelessly taking an eraser to canon.

I really wish I knew Lucas' treatment for the ST. Maybe, Hamill's push-back stems from his knowledge that Lucas had a better arc for Luke.

From E_CHU_TA!...Maybe, Hamill's push-back stems from his knowledge that Lucas had a better arc for Luke.

If so, then that would be a sensible reaction.

I really did enjoy The Force Awakens, but I now see that it has some fatal flaws that were completely avoidable.

Their starting point did not have to be so explicitly aping the first film.

Would it have been "wrong" for the starting point of the new trilogy to be set in a galaxy in Balance? Did it have to start out being so deeply Dark-sided? What would a Balanced start look like? Who said that it would have to be "peaceful" as we imagine peace?

After all, a universe in Balance is still a pretty terrible place to be! We're brainwashed not to contemplate Actual Reality because those In Charge want us to be as divorced from Natural Law as much as possible. The more they pervert the Rules, the more power they acquire, and it's far more efficient to trick their slaves into believing that they're free than to recruit and train a security force to bash heads in and store the rebels in extremely expensive buildings.

But let's pretend that there is no propaganda and no educational system to encircle our brains with their Matrix prison...

Is the universe, seen in its pristine and unfiltered state, splendid to live in?

No. Far from it. But at least it's then Honest.

No matter how "softly" and "lovingly" a creature tries to live Life, there's one unavoidable law, in order to live one must destroy. Every creature MUST consume. There are no exceptions. Every hardcore vegan wipes out an infinite list of future possibilities with every seed that's swallowed and destroyed.

However, the consumption of that seed, the absorption of its solar/plasma energy, allows the vegan to redirect its energy into a new set of infinite possibilities of their own choosing. Of course, there is still a very clear loser here; that seed-plant will never be able to direct its energy within its range of potentialities, it will never prosper and it will never produce progeny to carry on.

Nothing escapes this. Nothing.

To me, the breadth of storytelling potential is wide open here. Endlessly fascinating in its potential combinations.

But instead, we were given a Star Wars rehash, only magnified for the video game junkies. Snoke is more considerate, more intelligent, and more insidious than Sidious. His world-destroyer many multitudes of times better than the Death Star. The TIE Fighters are identical yet even better with their reversed color schemes. Rey makes Luke look like an absolute wimp. The list goes on and on...

The more I think about it, the more I wish that they would've tried something original that didn't challenge canonical foundations. Lucas himself said this.

The real problem with The Force Awakens, for me anyhow, is that it attempts to re-set events. Rather than move the galaxy, characters and situations, on in a more progressive way, it kind of attempts to press a big reset button. Now that may work for new audiences, or those not emotionally invested in the previous films, but the net result is (IMO) that it creates too many gaps in narrative logic/character development and is ultimately too derivative. So that we now have a scenario where we have a fallen hero, a new chosen one and a reluctant mentor all seems a bit too repetitive.

I agree with the above comments that a sequel trilogy starting with a galaxy broadly in balance would have afforded a plot/story with much more potential. As it stands, I of course want to see what happens with Luke, but I have very little investment/interest in the new characters and the fate of the First Order etc. I'm hoping Johnson has the opportunity to really expand the story in new directions, but I feel it's been mostly hamstrung by TFA.

There's no question that Anakin is the Chosen One. Not only was it stated by Lucas himself, but it was established in the movies that the Chosen One was someone conceived by midi-chlorians, destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. Anakin fulfilled all those requirements.

In their continuous crusade of cheap pandering and lack of creativity, they decided to redo the same stuff all over again (TFA was all about that after all). What's worse is the complete lack of respect for the characters. Luke was the person who didn't give up on trying to save his father, even while knowing how he helped destroy the Jedi and all the crimes he had commited. He was the person who was ready to die as a Jedi, to honor both the Order (and what it stood for) and who his father once was. But now he gives up on the whole thing (both Jedi Order and the galaxy) at the first "mistake". He runs away and hides from everyone. That's simply not Luke Skywalker. Like TFA, it's bad fan fiction.

Guys, I warned you all back in 2015. I told you guys that a Lucas-directed Episode 7 (and maybe 8) would be better than what we're now getting. You guys ignored me and took Disney's bait anyway even about the whole parentage thing. Now look at what has happened. You guys only have yourselves to blame for this. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. You guys have fallen over to the Dark Side.

Guys, I warned you all back in 2015. I told you guys that a Lucas-directed Episode 7 (and maybe 8) would be better than what we're now getting. You guys ignored me and took Disney's bait anyway even about the whole parentage thing. Now look at what has happened. You guys only have yourselves to blame for this. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. You guys have fallen over to the Dark Side.

Didn't you say something like if Rey isn't Luke's daughter you would leave this forum?

Guys, I warned you all back in 2015. I told you guys that a Lucas-directed Episode 7 (and maybe 8) would be better than what we're now getting. You guys ignored me and took Disney's bait anyway even about the whole parentage thing. Now look at what has happened. You guys only have yourselves to blame for this. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. You guys have fallen over to the Dark Side.

Few people here admire Lucas like I do, but if you have a point, please feel free to make it.

Guys, I warned you all back in 2015. I told you guys that a Lucas-directed Episode 7 (and maybe 8) would be better than what we're now getting. You guys ignored me and took Disney's bait anyway even about the whole parentage thing. Now look at what has happened. You guys only have yourselves to blame for this. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. You guys have fallen over to the Dark Side.

Don't blame me, I voted for Lobot.

I think all this stems from the fact that Disney just wants to make product, not tell stories. One can disagree with what Lucas did with his own movies all day long but the fact remains his ideas sprang from a desire to tell a story and push his characters forward while Disney's motivation is to merely mimic and recreate because they have a brand to preserve rather than a saga to expand. This is probably why Abrams was the only logic choice to helm their version of Star Wars.

As far as I'm concerned, the cannon that's been carefully established since 2012 is boring and tired but for better or for worse it is what Star Wars has become. As long as George's vision of Star Wars continues to exist, that's all I'll care about.

He is so specific about what Anakin did to qualify as the Chosen One that I deeply suspect that the current plotline requires a new Chosen One for a (very slightly) "different" set of reasons.

If Anakin was "just" the only Chosen One, then all Hidalgo had to casually say was "Yes, Anakin always was and certainly is, The Chosen One. He definitely fulfilled the prophecy and brought Balance to the Force." But he didn't say that, did he? He's on the verge of splitting very fine hairs.

I don't know the age of the prophecy for The Chosen One. From what I've researched, canonically the prophecy is centuries years old. This was thus an important prediction, yet, if the interviews with the key actors are accurate, less than 30 years later it was already seriously out of whack from a new (maybe?) dangerous threat. Maybe this All Important prophecy should have been, "There will be a Chosen One who will bring Balance to the Force against the Sith, and THEN in a blink of an eye, imbalance will return, and there will be ANOTHER Chosen One, who will bring REAL Balance by defeating Snoke."

Was Luke an actual Jedi at the end of The Return of The Jedi, or not? Was Balance only achieved when there were NO Sith and NO Jedi? If so, then if Luke went on to gain enough new training to finally make him a Jedi, then THAT act created the destabilizing Imbalance (but it's hard to imagine what else could *finally* make him an actual Jedi - his faith in his father was The Ultimate Jedi Test, and he PASSED it). But under Disney's stewardship (meddling?), the outer-galaxy Greater Dark Side threat was in existence years BEFORE the Emperor was slain. Thus, killing Palpatine MISSED THE MAIN DARK SIDE MARK, which, we're forced to presume, is Snoke.

Gah!

Whata needlessmessDisney!

This is what happens when you don't proceed on from where Lucas left off...!

The more that I think about this mess, the more convinced I am that Disney's excessive greed took the shortest path possible to all of the green.

I'd love to read Lucas' proposal for this trilogy. Maybe someday someone will smuggle it out.

The day they announced a sequel trilogy - whether it was George's drafts or a new vision - the project was going to suffer from the reality that the PT reframed the entire saga as the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, and the fulfillment of his destiny as the "Chosen One." That's not Disney's fault. Unless 7-9 documented our original heroes enjoying a happy and well-earned retirement from warring amongst the stars, there is no story that wouldn't effectively undo the conflict, sacrifice and victory that made up the narrative thrust of 1-6.

So now that we have a ST, and obviously it's going to involve warring factions and people with magic powers on opposite sides of light/dark battling for the fate of the galaxy, what did you think you were going to get?

Now, do I think that Kylo Ren being yet another "Chosen One" would further dilute 1-6? Yes, but it's worth noting that Pablo/Lucas have been saying that just because a character believes that someone is the "Chosen One" it doesn't necessarily mean that they actually are. Pablo specifically uses the example that just because Obi-wan believes Luke is the "Chosen One" (he says as much to Maul in Rebels) doesn't make it so. Let's be honest with ourselves here: this isn't just a Pablo Hidalgo thing. Lucas has been a revisionist throughout the entire history of Star Wars. If anything, Pablo is carrying that mantle now and nobody is a bigger homer and defender of Lucas than he.

Why would no Jedi (a group of people devoted to peacekeeping) help the Force be in balance? If anything, it helped bring the Force even more out of balance. The Sith are causing imbalance, so it makes sense that their end would help restore it.

CoGro wrote:

Pablo specifically uses the example that just because Obi-wan believes Luke is the "Chosen One" (he says as much to Maul in Rebels) doesn't make it so. Let's be honest with ourselves here: this isn't just a Pablo Hidalgo thing.

It is a Pablo Hidalgo (or new Lucasfilm) thing. Why would Obi-Wan believe Luke is the Chosen One? If anything, he ceased to believe in the prophecy, or that Anakin was not the one. The prophecy refers to someone conceived by midi-chlorians, destined to destroy the Sith and restore balance to the Force. Luke was not conceived by midi-chlorians, therefore he's not the Chosen One.

If you look at the information Obi-Wan possesses, and the experiences he has, he has every reason to believe Luke is The Chosen One.

Even if that belief exists only to ease some of his guilt. He can convince himself Anakin wasn't REALLY the Chosen One and that Luke is, because Obi-Wan believes himself to have failed Anakin. Obi-Wan also later saw Luke succeed where Anakin failed, thus further reinforcing his internal belief. A way to live with, and process that failure is to honestly believe, internally, that Anakin is not what the prophecy said him to be. To me, this makes Obi-Wan even more human and likable. As much as he is cast as the ideal, perfect Jedi, it's his imperfections that haunt him to his dying day. Another reason why I so badly want to see a stand-alone Obi-Wan film. That kind of character study would be incredibly compelling.

If you look at the information Obi-Wan possesses, and the experiences he has, he has every reason to believe Luke is The Chosen One.

No, he hasn't. Luke doesn't meet the requirements of the Chosen One, per the prophecy itself. How can he believe in the chosen one of a Jedi prophecy while ignoring the prophecy itself? It's an oxymoron.

royalguard96 wrote:

Even if that belief exists only to ease some of his guilt. He can convince himself Anakin wasn't REALLY the Chosen One and that Luke is, because Obi-Wan believes himself to have failed Anakin. Obi-Wan also later saw Luke succeed where Anakin failed, thus further reinforcing his internal belief.

He might have faith in Luke and believe he's his only hope. But that doesn't make him the chosen one.

In ROTS, Obi-wan refers to Anakin as the Chosen One in the past tense. ("You were the Chosen One!") In other words, Obi-wan feels that Anakin has forfeited his status as savior. By the OT, Obi-wan sees Luke as the successor to Anakin. ("That boy is our last hope.") So, the statements about Ben's views in "Twin Suns" seem more like a clarification than a retcon.

With the ST, there doesn't seem to be a need for another "Choose One." The Empire is gone. So, why would Luke think that Ben needs to take on the same role as his Anakin?

The day they announced a sequel trilogy - whether it was George's drafts or a new vision - the project was going to suffer from the reality that the PT reframed the entire saga as the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, and the fulfillment of his destiny as the "Chosen One." That's not Disney's fault. Unless 7-9 documented our original heroes enjoying a happy and well-earned retirement from warring amongst the stars, there is no story that wouldn't effectively undo the conflict, sacrifice and victory that made up the narrative thrust of 1-6.

So now that we have a ST, and obviously it's going to involve warring factions and people with magic powers on opposite sides of light/dark battling for the fate of the galaxy, what did you think you were going to get?

Now, do I think that Kylo Ren being yet another "Chosen One" would further dilute 1-6? Yes, but it's worth noting that Pablo/Lucas have been saying that just because a character believes that someone is the "Chosen One" it doesn't necessarily mean that they actually are. Pablo specifically uses the example that just because Obi-wan believes Luke is the "Chosen One" (he says as much to Maul in Rebels) doesn't make it so. Let's be honest with ourselves here: this isn't just a Pablo Hidalgo thing. Lucas has been a revisionist throughout the entire history of Star Wars. If anything, Pablo is carrying that mantle now and nobody is a bigger homer and defender of Lucas than he.

I don't think anyone is criticising the notion that Star Wars sequels contain spaceships and lightsabres, the dark and light side. It's that in a galaxy of limitless opportunities, they appear to be simply recreating, or being hugely derivative of, the previous films. There's always the chance that, narratively and cinematically, Johnson can rescue this... but I believe the damage was done with The Force Awakens, the most paper thin and hugely uncreative Star Wars film to date.

I highly doubt. Ep. 8 or 9 will fully address these issues. Ep. 8 won't have time, and I don't trust Trevorrow to do it justice in Ep. 9.

It's my hope the next Filoni-led animated series will focus on Luke's Jedi Academy. That's really the only chance I see for this stuff to get properly addressed. There's 32 years between ROJ and TFA. Such a big sandbox to play in.

Yes, it feels like they have painted themselves into a corner, thematically speaking, by going the route of a fallen Jedi turned by an evil emperor, saved by the good-hearted orphan. Now I caveat that with the acknowledgment that we've only seen, to date, 1 film of the sequels... and if Rey ends up becoming the big villain of the piece, if Snoke turns out to be Plageuis etc. etc. then at least that may demonstrate Lucasfilms desire to connect the themes and narrative of the saga, rather than just trying to apishly recreate the OT.

In ROTS, Obi-wan refers to Anakin as the Chosen One in the past tense. ("You were the Chosen One!") In other words, Obi-wan feels that Anakin has forfeited his status as savior. By the OT, Obi-wan sees Luke as the successor to Anakin. ("That boy is our last hope.")

That Obi-Wan lost faith in Anakin is true. That Obi-Wan has faith in Luke is also true. What's not true is that Obi-Wan believes Luke to be the Chosen One. He can't be the Chosen One and Obi-Wan knows that because he knows about the prophecy. He wasn't conceived by midi-chlorians. You can believe someone can save the galaxy while not being the Chosen One. That's what happens with Obi-Wan and Yoda during the original trilogy.

pnag11 wrote:

There are no more Sith, why does the Force need Jedi?

The Jedi don't exist because of the Sith. They exist to keep peace and justice in the galaxy, wherever they are allowed to.

And the Force only needs life, not those that end it (i.e: the bad guys).

Didn't you say something like if Rey isn't Luke's daughter you would leave this forum?

And I have yet to see that Luke isn't her father, officially. Until I see the evidence. I'm staying here. Hate me all you want, but I could care less. You're just nobody who spends a lot of time on a computer/tablet screen to me. As is everyone else here.

royalguard96 wrote:

Few people here admire Lucas like I do, but if you have a point, please feel free to make it.

I made my point in '15 and you guys were like, "OMG JJ Abrams would be better than that hack, George Lucas. OMG Larry Kasdan could do no wrong" The result? a copycat movie that has to use a giant Death Star as a crutch. Lucas avoided that brilliantly in the Prequels. I have no doubt that his treatment contained NO Death Star no matter how big or small. Now Rian Johnson has to fix the mess that Abrams left behind. And guess what? Abrams is now one of the reviled directors of all time because all he does is remake movies with plots we've seen before.

Guys, I warned you all back in 2015. I told you guys that a Lucas-directed Episode 7 (and maybe 8) would be better than what we're now getting. You guys ignored me and took Disney's bait anyway even about the whole parentage thing. Now look at what has happened. You guys only have yourselves to blame for this. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. You guys have fallen over to the Dark Side.

Don't blame me, I voted for Lobot.

I think all this stems from the fact that Disney just wants to make product, not tell stories. One can disagree with what Lucas did with his own movies all day long but the fact remains his ideas sprang from a desire to tell a story and push his characters forward while Disney's motivation is to merely mimic and recreate because they have a brand to preserve rather than a saga to expand. This is probably why Abrams was the only logic choice to helm their version of Star Wars.

As far as I'm concerned, the cannon that's been carefully established since 2012 is boring and tired but for better or for worse it is what Star Wars has become. As long as George's vision of Star Wars continues to exist, that's all I'll care about.

That and Star Tours.

And Battlefront.

And the toys, but that's it.

That's why I like Lucas because even outside Star Wars, he likes to tell stories and not have the effects be center and front. He's not one to recreate. Otherwise he would have remade ANH-ROTJ using modern effects technology. You know there are a shitload of directors including Spielberg who would LOVE to remake the original trilogy but it won't happen as long Lucas is alive. He still has the final say on the PT and OT. That's the sole reason WHY we ARE NOT getting the original theatrical versions of the OT.

Star Tours has been a Disney property for 30 years now. Now that Disney has full control of the franchise, you know they'll expand Star Tours into a full functioning park. The attraction itself? ST will be fucked with by adding Episode 7-8 stuff. Can you imagine Kids today be impressed with how they just sat through THREE, yes three Death Stars (ANH DS, ROTJ DS and Starkiller Base) in a ride. They'll get tired of that real fast.

About Battlefront. From my perspective, Battlefront was a real mess. It was clearly rushed out to meet the TFA release date. I'm cautiously hopeful for the next one.

Besides from that, The books and everything doesnt matter to me. I'll pick up an action figure from each "Episodic" movie that's about it. I would rather make my own canon using what I know from Lucas' specifics of that universe. I mean, who the fuck gives Palpatine the name of Sheev? That's something Lucas would never do.