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Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Absolutely agreed. And, as I pointed out above (where scavenger didn't respond - really what could he say?) P2P games are just as P2W as F2P games. The whole P2W slogan is just a propoganda marketing blurb anyway. I file that in with Web2.0, Dynamic Content, "Sandbox style", and the rest of the empty buzzwords.

Really, if people don't like F2P or Freemium they can vote with their wallets. I'm voting with mine in regards to subscriptions at the moment.

No, P2P is not P2W. In P2P games, you pay to play the content, in Freemium games, you buy the reward that one would obtain from playing the content. That, my friend, is P2W. I can do 1 raid 20 times in order to get a full list of rewards for my 20th completion with HOPES of getting a +4 tome as a reward, or I can cash some money in and get my tome, just like that. And a +4 does make a hell of a difference when you want to be the best or have the best builds. It can possiblly influence your feat selection, it most definitely influences one's stat distribution at creation and at level ups, it can influence enhancement choices, it can influence gear selection, etc. It's a real game changer.

Oh, and might I add that DDO uses the d20 system. AKA, every little bonus counts! Rolling a 10+6 or a 10+8 can be the difference between surviving an encounter or dying.

Do you read the posts in your own thread? I explained why P2P is P2W. You complained earlier that someone didn't read the OP.

I'm subscribed to RIFT. If I don't pay the xpac upgrade price I'm gated from content, can't progress, and am at a disadvantage even though I'm still paying the sub fee. My friends and guildies are discouraged from grouping with me by the developer. In order to play with me my friends have to restrict themselves to old content, diminished rewards, and no real progression even though I'm still paying a sub fee. If that isn't pay to win, I don't know what is.

Like I said in the earlier post, every game gives some incentive to spend money. You may be able to do 1 raid 20 times in a p2p game. In rift that will 5 months or $75 @ $15 per month. You get access to other content for paying that, but if you want to repeat the same raid in rift you must pay them a minimum of $75 @ $15 per month. During that time I might have a chance of getting the epic drop I need. If not I just get to wait and sub longer and spend more.

I don't expect you to like F2P, freemium, or B2P but I feel like my reasons for like that model are valid and it offers good entertainment at a good price.

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Do you read the posts in your own thread? I explained why P2P is P2W. You complained earlier that someone didn't read the OP.

I'm subscribed to RIFT. If I don't pay the xpac upgrade price I'm gated from content, can't progress, and am at a disadvantage even though I'm still paying the sub fee. My friends and guildies are discouraged from grouping with me by the developer. In order to play with me my friends have to restrict themselves to old content, diminished rewards, and no real progression even though I'm still paying a sub fee. If that isn't pay to win, I don't know what is.

Like I said in the earlier post, every game gives some incentive to spend money. You may be able to do 1 raid 20 times in a p2p game. In rift that will 5 months or $75 @ $15 per month. You get access to other content for paying that, but if you want to repeat the same raid in rift you must pay them a minimum of $75 @ $15 per month. During that time I might have a chance of getting the epic drop I need. If not I just get to wait and sub longer and spend more.

I don't expect you to like F2P, freemium, or B2P but I feel like my reasons for like that model are valid and it offers good entertainment at a good price.

So by your reasoning, if you decide you can't afford the sub price, then the game is P2W because someone else that can pay the sub price will be able to progress their characters. Don't you see the huge difference there is between paying to access content to potentially obtain rewards and paying to automatically obtain rewards?

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Originally posted by Loktofeit

I think you've repeated that BS line to yourself so many times that you actually believe it. Yes, in DDO there's a +4 item you can buy that's powerful. Someone else might have a slightly bigger ePeen than you in DDO. You keep regurgitating the rare exception as the norm, and i think you['re truly convinced that if you say it often enough it will magically come true.

Dude, if that +4 whatever bothers you, just buy the damn thing or play a different game. Your obsession with it is unhealthy.

EDIT: And for the love of all that is holy, don't ever play War Rock - your head will explode.

Actually, I would like to correct myself for generalizing, for I haven't played every P2P and Freemium game in the market. However, as I said before, it is not about ePeen. Perhaps you haven't played DDO, but these items have a huge impact on gameplay, therefore selling them in the cash shop is P2W.

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Originally posted by stealthbrDDO! Absolutely loved that game, but since Turbine changed the business model, I simply can't stand it. Hell, they're going to sell +4 tomes in the store! I have never seen a +4 tome drop, ever! They were one of the most sought-after and rare items, and now, well now you can just open the store and spend X amount of dollars and get one for yourself!

DDO is the one of the few games, where to me, this model makes sense. It heavily group oriented instanced design lends iteself perfectly to this business model.

Does it influence you that some other guy buys a +4 Tome? No. It is not a competitive game. Its a group game. Play the game with people who are like you. If you dont want to buy adventure packs and power items, play with others that dont do that. Then the group will be balanced. If you are a rich man and want to buy your way to uber char power and full game access or a subscription type of guy, play with like minded people, and the group is balanced.

I think the thing tormenting you here is not broken mechanics, but simple envy. What is it about knowing that some other guy has gotten access something that does in no way influence you or your gameplay, that is so horrible that you cant stand it?

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I would actually disagree about it being P2W. That term generally has a connotation that means it creates a gap of power only people who pay for the items have. That is simply not true in DDO. Sure the item is super rare but like one poster said, if its true MMO players should have loads of time to play them they can grind out dungeons until they get a drop, whereas the person who bought the tome valued his time differently and he felt that he would rather buy the tome and do other things. That gap can be closed with enough time invested and since that player isn't investing money, which is the whole reason the shop and game exists, then why shouldn't he have an easier time of acquiring it?

I'd agree that it is a disincentive to constantly revisit content and perhapd reducing longevity for the people who bought the tomes, but it isn't P2W by its standard definition. I do hear Atlantica Online has pretty much the pinnacle of P2W but I can't say for sure since I personally have never played it.

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Originally posted by hfztt

Originally posted by stealthbrDDO! Absolutely loved that game, but since Turbine changed the business model, I simply can't stand it. Hell, they're going to sell +4 tomes in the store! I have never seen a +4 tome drop, ever! They were one of the most sought-after and rare items, and now, well now you can just open the store and spend X amount of dollars and get one for yourself!

DDO is the one of the few games, where to me, this model makes sense. It heavily group oriented instanced design lends iteself perfectly to this business model.

Does it influence you that some other guy buys a +4 Tome? No. It is not a competitive game. Its a group game. Play the game with people who are like you. If you dont want to buy adventure packs and power items, play with others that dont do that. Then the group will be balanced. If you are a rich man and want to buy your way to uber char power and full game access or a subscription type of guy, play with like minded people, and the group is balanced.

I think the thing tormenting you here is not broken mechanics, but simple envy. What is it about knowing that some other guy has gotten access something that does in no way influence you or your gameplay, that is so horrible that you cant stand it?

Disagree. Even in PvE, there is still competition. There's competition to see who can get into groups, who can be of more aid to a party, who can waste less resources, who can do things faster, etc. True, playing with like-minded folk can most definitely alleviate the issue, but it does not in any way take away from the fact that you can spend real money to get gameplay-altering advantages.

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Originally posted by RandomDown

I would actually disagree about it being P2W. That term generally has a connotation that means it creates a gap of power only people who pay for the items have. That is simply not true in DDO. Sure the item is super rare but like one poster said, if its true MMO players should have loads of time to play them they can grind out dungeons until they get a drop, whereas the person who bought the tome valued his time differently and he felt that he would rather buy the tome and do other things. That gap can be closed with enough time invested and since that player isn't investing money, which is the whole reason the shop and game exists, then why shouldn't he have an easier time of acquiring it?

I'd agree that it is a disincentive to constantly revisit content and perhapd reducing longevity for the people who bought the tomes, but it isn't P2W by its standard definition. I do hear Atlantica Online has pretty much the pinnacle of P2W but I can't say for sure since I personally have never played it.

Going by the strict definition of the term, I can understand your point. However, I still don't think it's something that should be present in a cash shop.

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Freemium is an extended trial. Everybody knows that if you commit to a game that's freemium, you're going to pay. Some freemium games are more obnoxious than others, but I wouldn't call all of them pay to win. Some are just "pay to be less annoying."

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I would actually disagree about it being P2W. That term generally has a connotation that means it creates a gap of power only people who pay for the items have.

P2W actually depends on personal people belief. For many people it is in example selling any kind of even litte advantage, even if this advantage is also acquireable in game. For people that are driven to play by dressing up their characters, cosmetic items in cash shop might be perceived as p2w. For people that play to beat pve content fast or achieve rewards from challaning pve content - any kind of buffs, store-pots, etc might be perceived as p2w. For people that play mainly for pvp - any items that influence combat even in small way or rewards from pvp'ing might be perceived as p2w. CS selling recipes / mats / ready items might be pereceived as p2w by crafters. CS selling currency either directly or indirectly (plex, gems,etc) might be perceived as p2w by traders and merchants.

and so on.

Your definition is valid for you, but you have to realize that alot of people will have their own definitions of p2w and that for many people p2w does not have top mean 'uncloseable gap unless you pay money' type of CS.

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I understand that but a game company has every right to make money, and there is always going to be someone dissatisified that it is not "completely free" even though there is absolutely no feasible way to do that outside of a private server for whatever game. So really, if it is acquirable in game such as the tomes, and not something that gives a power gap that is otherwise inaccesible, they don't have much of a right to complain if they aren't willing to invest in the game at all monetarily anyways, which is something you see a lot on these forums unfortunately.

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Originally posted by RandomDownI understand that but a game company has every right to make money, and there is always going to be someone dissatisified that it is not "completely free" even though there is absolutely no feasible way to do that outside of a private server for whatever game. So really, if it is acquirable in game such as the tomes, and not something that gives a power gap that is otherwise inaccesible, they don't have much of a right to complain if they aren't willing to invest in the game at all monetarily anyways, which is something you see a lot on these forums unfortunately.

Remember it is your personal definition that "if it is acquirable in game such as the tomes, and not something that gives a power gap that is otherwise inaccesible". You could find people that would have zero problem with CS providing power gap or / and unaccessible items and calling that you don't have right to complain if it is designed that way.

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I was being generous, even in a game where you can buy a power gap I still think thats fine. They are out to make money, and the people who want that power level will pay for it and if they are so elitist to only play with others that do it, thats fine. Then the argument people use to say the free players make the game seem alive is fallacious.

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Do you read the posts in your own thread? I explained why P2P is P2W. You complained earlier that someone didn't read the OP.

I'm subscribed to RIFT. If I don't pay the xpac upgrade price I'm gated from content, can't progress, and am at a disadvantage even though I'm still paying the sub fee. My friends and guildies are discouraged from grouping with me by the developer. In order to play with me my friends have to restrict themselves to old content, diminished rewards, and no real progression even though I'm still paying a sub fee. If that isn't pay to win, I don't know what is.

Like I said in the earlier post, every game gives some incentive to spend money. You may be able to do 1 raid 20 times in a p2p game. In rift that will 5 months or $75 @ $15 per month. You get access to other content for paying that, but if you want to repeat the same raid in rift you must pay them a minimum of $75 @ $15 per month. During that time I might have a chance of getting the epic drop I need. If not I just get to wait and sub longer and spend more.

I don't expect you to like F2P, freemium, or B2P but I feel like my reasons for like that model are valid and it offers good entertainment at a good price.

So by your reasoning, if you decide you can't afford the sub price, then the game is P2W because someone else that can pay the sub price will be able to progress their characters. Don't you see the huge difference there is between paying to access content to potentially obtain rewards and paying to automatically obtain rewards?

BTW, the DDO example was directed at another poster.

Maybe you misread my post. I never said I couldn't pay the sub or wouldn't pay the sub. I said I am STILL paying a subscription but since I didn't buy the expansion I'm locked out of content, at a disadvantage, and alienated from the main community with regards to game play.

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Originally posted by fenistilSo basically what you say is that consumers should never criticize business model?

Vocal criticism doesn't mean much if it is still a profitable behavior. The gaming community at large decried the always online DRM that D3 utilized but look at how it sold. The fact of the matter is complaining is not criticism, its just complaining. When a person says they should have access to all the content completely free AND that noone should get an advantage for providing revenue to the company, its completely absurd. That is what I am referring to, and it is not an uncommon "criticism" of the model that there are power gaps and content gates for people who don't pay anything into the game at all.

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Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

Same here. My son and I have plenty of MMOs that we can play together because someone else is footing the bill. If it means they're on a flying sparkle pony while my son and I are on palominoes, we're ok with that.

No wonder all the new MMOs fail.

Well except EVE, RIFT and WoW...

Wonder if these are the same people that are okay with or/and buy day 1 DLC...I mean, if they want to downgrade the MMO genre so much to pay to win...than I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are fine with first day DLC...

well ... some new MMOs may fail, but certainly lots of F2P online games are successful. LOL, WOT are quite succesufl. PS2 looks good so far.

It is not about F2P, it is about if a game is good.

Oh, i am fine with first day DLC. It is a free world. Devs are free to sell their content/game anyway they want to, i am free to decide if i want to buy it.

What is the problem if a company want to cut up their game in little pieces, and sell them as such. You don't have to buy anything, you know.

Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

Same here. My son and I have plenty of MMOs that we can play together because someone else is footing the bill. If it means they're on a flying sparkle pony while my son and I are on palominoes, we're ok with that.

No wonder all the new MMOs fail.

Well except EVE, RIFT and WoW...

Wonder if these are the same people that are okay with or/and buy day 1 DLC...I mean, if they want to downgrade the MMO genre so much to pay to win...than I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are fine with first day DLC...

well ... some new MMOs may fail, but certainly lots of F2P online games are successful. LOL, WOT are quite succesufl. PS2 looks good so far.

It is not about F2P, it is about if a game is good.

Oh, i am fine with first day DLC. It is a free world. Devs are free to sell their content/game anyway they want to, i am free to decide if i want to buy it.

What is the problem if a company want to cut up their game in little pieces, and sell them as such. You don't have to buy anything, you know.

Therefor in reality, you don't want an MMO. You want a singleplayer game in a pseudo MMO format, and done with it in a week and moving on. Why play an MMO at all then? Find a singleplayer game, its a lot cheaper and you can be done with it in a week or less.

No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

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Who cares? You and everyone else. You know who doesn't? You and everyone else. Apparently [you and everyone else] do not like any games other than WoW or EVE. Subscriptions are waning because no one is subbing. No money to be made if you're not WoW or EVE. Freemium makes money. Get that through your thick fucking head. Your incessant whining will never change the fact. Get over it.

Therefor in reality, you don't want an MMO. You want a singleplayer game in a pseudo MMO format, and done with it in a week and moving on. Why play an MMO at all then? Find a singleplayer game, its a lot cheaper and you can be done with it in a week or less.

No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

I give you kudos...had me going for a while.

"single player game in a pseudo MMO format" .. isn't that what MMOs are today? Why play a MMO? Because they are lobby co-op games, or instanced arena games? Because they have become better games, and progress away from the old UO/EQ.

Do you think i would play MMO if all MMOs are still stuck in the UO design?

Like i say before, if someone is subsidizing my games, it is only fair he got some advantage.

"Who the heck would be fine with a developers cutting out content and releasing it as DAY 1 DC"? Everyone purchasing the game, and the DLC? So millions.

It is a free world. You don't have to buy anything you don't like. Devs have zero obligations to give out all teh content to you. And you have zero obligations to buy anything.

You sound lke they owe you .. they don't. It is their game. They can charge whatever.

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Originally posted by Etherouge

Who cares? You and everyone else. You know who doesn't? You and everyone else. Apparently [you and everyone else] do not like any games other than WoW or EVE. Subscriptions are waning because no one is subbing. No money to be made if you're not WoW or EVE. Freemium makes money. Get that through your thick fucking head. Your incessant whining will never change the fact. Get over it.