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You know, at first I wanted Shaft to end ep10 with a cliffhanger but now I realize they didn't because they wanted to avoid what happened with you.

It's actually quite hilarious that she would rage so hard as to not continue watching and come give it a painful rating lol. I wish Shaft had done that because I would have deliciously savored all the rage.

It got stuck too much in going over board with all its jokes and fanservice, and festishes that it forgot to keeps its characters grounded. The overall entertainment and comedy just suffered as a result of this uneven production.

I never really considered Bake to be high brow entertainment, Iíve always felt it was something meant to be taken as straightforward entertainment. But thatís the thing, I actually feel Nise is trying to outwit itself in providing some of that more straightforward entertainment. Itís trying to be too clever, and just comes out remarkably lame to me as a result.

The characters themselves were flanderized in an embarrassing manner so much so that they were hardly recognizable anymore. Worst of them all is Koyomi who you probably wouldn't even believe he held a respectable relationship with Hitagi in Bake, irrespective of whatever sociopathic perversions they played up for comedic effect.

There were some good, some bad in Nise, but this is clearly not a sequel that lives up to its predecessor in any way save its visuals. I hope Kizu will be better, but my enthusiasm for this franchise has definitely died down at this point. Good job Shinbo, you fucked up.

I hope Kizu will be better, but my enthusiasm for this franchise has definitely died down at this point. Good job Shinbo, you fucked up.

How did Shinbo mess up? Nise is considered the lowpoint of the series and Oishi (who directed Bake) is easily a better director than Itamura who was in charge for Nise. That's why Oishi's directing Kizumonogatari the arguable peak of the series (Hitagi fans are most likely to disagree.. lol) instead of working on Nise which is the complete opposite. Nise is fast food, if you want soul wait for Kizu, this isn't damage control, this was being said by reviewers and fans of the LNs before Bakemonogatari was even animated.

It got stuck too much in going over board with all its jokes and fanservice, and festishes that it forgot to keeps its characters grounded. The overall entertainment and comedy just suffered as a result of this uneven production.

I never really considered Bake to be high brow entertainment, Iíve always felt it was something meant to be taken as straightforward entertainment. But thatís the thing, I actually feel Nise is trying to outwit itself in providing some of that more straightforward entertainment. Itís trying to be too clever, and just comes out remarkably lame to me as a result.

The characters themselves were flanderized in an embarrassing manner so much so that they were hardly recognizable anymore. Worst of them all is Koyomi who you probably wouldn't even believe he held a respectable relationship with Hitagi in Bake, irrespective of whatever sociopathic perversions they played up for comedic effect.

There were some good, some bad in Nise, but this is clearly not a sequel that lives up to its predecessor in any way save its visuals. I hope Kizu will be better, but my enthusiasm for this franchise has definitely died down at this point. Good job Shinbo, you fucked up.

You lost me at "too clever". I'm biased for this series but even I have to admit that this isn't exactly brain food.

Also how can you blame Shinbo for this? Everything that you are critizing have to do with the plot and that's Nisio's department.

Honestly, I think you have had the wrong impression of this series since Bake. This series was never what you thought it was. It's not supposed to be clever, it's suppose to......I don't have a word for it but it's definitely not high-brow stuff.

How did Shinbo mess up? Nise is considered the lowpoint of the series and Oishi is easily a better director than Itamura. That's why he's directing Kizumonogatari the arguable peak of the series instead of working on Nise which is the complete opposite.

Nise is fast food, if you want soul wait for Kizu, this isn't damage control, this was being said by reviewers and fans of the LNs before Bakemonogatari was even animated.

It's hard for me to say just how much I want to blame Nisio here and how much I want to blame Shinbo. I'm aware this was basically Nisio's own fap material that he wasn't intending to share with anyone in the first place. OK, that's the source whatever.

But my experience with Shinbo as a director tells me this: he's as egotistical of a director as they come. You give him an excuse to unleash himself on a scene in the most pretentious and asinine manner possible, and he'll do it. Instead of trying to curtail some of Nisio's tendencies, he overemphasized these things. The pacing was off, particularly in the second arc because he decided that both that a tooth brush scene deserved an entire episode and that the first arc needed 7 episodes.

Shinbo doesn't have to be 100% faithful to the novel contrary to popular belief. He can change small details to make it flow better and to curtail its weirded aspects. But then again, I'm not the audience being catered to here obviously and other people eat up this shit, so just a difference of taste here.

It's hard for me to say just how much I want to blame Nisio here and how much I want to blame Shinbo. I'm aware this was basically Nisio's own fap material that he wasn't intending to share with anyone in the first place. OK, that's the source whatever.

But my experience with Shinbo as a director tells me this: he's as egotistical of a director as they come. You give him an excuse to unleash himself on a scene in the most pretentious and asinine manner possible, and he'll do it. Instead of trying to curtail some of Nisio's tendencies, he overemphasized these things. The pacing was off, particularly in the second arc because he decided that both that a tooth brush scene deserved an entire episode and that the first arc needed 7 episodes.

Shinbo doesn't have to be 100% faithful to the novel contrary to popular belief. He can change small details to make it flow better and to curtail its weirded aspects. But then again, I'm not the audience being catered to here obviously and other people eat up this shit, so just a difference of taste here.

I'm curious, why do you praise/blame Shinbo when it should really be Oishi or Itamura depending on which series you're talking about? As for the uneven flow... Karen Bee is considered superior to the second half, you can say the only "worthwhile" things in the second half are the toothbrush thing and Shinobu. Love it or hate it the toothbrush scene was a talking point, like it was meant to be, look @ the amount of discussion it provoked compared to everything else that followed it.

And SHAFT did make things flow better, unless you think a 150 page build up to Karen meeting Suraga and than not even seeing that meeting is better than what we got. Or Araragi endlessly narrating about how Hitagi has changed without telling us how would've been better to spend on than whatever episode of Karen Bee.

Nise 2 is shit, get over it, it's 1/12 of the series and soon to be 1/15, and I've heard nothing but good things about the 6 novels that comprise the "2nd season".

I would like to know how much of a fact this is. Nise may have been different from their expectations, and at the times between Bake, Kizu and Nise people may have voted for the worst to be Nise. Now that the series is many books longer though people may judge these books more objectively.

Then again, as an anime Nise (even as a novel, in fact) has its problems, on that I agree.

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Nise is fast food, if you want soul wait for Kizu

I'd say the anime is fast food, the soul is in the books. It's a fact, because if you cut the inner monologues (where the "soul" really resides) then many things won't make as sense as they do in the novels. I got a better impression of Nadeko Snake and Tsubasa Cat by reading the original text.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner

I'm aware this was basically Nisio's own fap material that he wasn't intending to share with anyone in the first place.

This is another misconception that became quite rooted I tried to explain it here. Basically, Nisio says in every postscript that he wrote this as a hobby and he never meant to publish it in the first place. This is just an act. As a Japanese, he had to put on a little show of humility. You won't ever understand the Japanese if you can't get things like this.

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Instead of trying to curtail some of Nisio's tendencies, he overemphasized these things.

Sorry, Shinbo has been curtailing Nisio since Bake, that's why you think Nise is off. It's like Shinbo turned Gintama into Rurouni Kenshin.

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The pacing was off, particularly in the second arc because he decided that both that a tooth brush scene deserved an entire episode

Well, it did deserve it. They were 50 pages in the book. The problem was that the rest got compressed in 3 episodes, whereas the book is as long as Karen Bee.

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Shinbo doesn't have to be 100% faithful to the novel contrary to popular belief. He can change small details to make it flow better and to curtail its weirded aspects.

Contrary to your impression, this is what he actually did. Past a certain point though, it would become like that adaptation of Mizuiro Jidai where an episode centered around the main character having her first menstruation became her having a bad dream.

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But then again, I'm not the audience being catered to here obviously and other people eat up this shit, so just a difference of taste here.

So when you are not catered to then it becomes shit? You are conceited.

It's interesting how the more I read complaints about this show, the more I realize how well done it actually is and I come to like it more and more. This is the first show that I am getting this reaction with.

There can be no excuse for rushing the Tsukihi story but other than that, I would consider Nisemonogatari near perfect.

Discarding Nise- as porn is the least naive! The only other place I read that except from haters here is Sankaku Complex

SHAFT and the rest of producers tried their best given the known financial and ultra-conservatist/modern-feminist limitations to continue the franchise loyally. This might confuse a lot of viewers (especially outside Japan), but it's the best effort that could be done

I'm curious, why do you praise/blame Shinbo when it should really be Oishi or Itamura depending on which series you're talking about? As for the uneven flow... Karen Bee is considered superior to the second half, you can say the only "worthwhile" things in the second half are the toothbrush thing and Shinobu. Love it or hate it the toothbrush scene was a talking point, like it was meant to be, look @ the amount of discussion it provoked compared to everything else that followed it.

Well lets make one thing clear here. I'm not talking as an adviser for SHAFT and what they should do to best produce the series for fans of the light novel or what have you. I can only express what I personally like and dislike. For me that tooth brush scene would have been better served as being put in the trash can.

Anyways... While Itamura was the series director, Shinbo was still the "director" and part of the series composition. He has the final say in it and is pretty much the chief for this. When a production gets out of control I pin it on who really is in charge here.

In the end it doesn't matter who I attribute blame to, all names involved get a negative mark as far as I am concerned.

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Originally Posted by Westlo

And SHAFT did make things flow better, unless you think a 150 page build up to Karen meeting Suraga and than not even seeing that meeting is better than what we got. Or Araragi endlessly narrating about how Hitagi has changed without telling us how would've been better to spend on than whatever episode of Karen Bee.

Nise 2 is shit, get over it, it's 1/12 of the series and soon to be 1/15, and I've heard nothing but good things about the 6 novels that comprise the "2nd season".

That's my problem, the second part was uber condensed, save for one little tooth brush scene which got a lot more attention than other things, while Karen Bee was bloated up. The pacing of the series was uneven, as a whole. Not talking about individual novels and their respective adaptions.

But it's fine. I didn't proclaim the death of this franchise or anything. I simply said that I thought this was average and my enthusiasm atm is gone. If the other novels really are better, then it will speak for itself when I do get to see it.

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Originally Posted by Shikijin

This is another misconception that became quite rooted I tried to explain it here. Basically, Nisio says in every postscript that he wrote this as a hobby and he never meant to publish it in the first place. This is just an act. As a Japanese, he had to put on a little show of humility. You won't ever understand the Japanese if you can't get things like this.

Point taken. I'll make sure to give a negative star to Nisio too then mmm k?

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Originally Posted by Shikijin

Sorry, Shinbo has been curtailing Nisio since Bake, that's why you think Nise is off. It's like Shinbo turned Gintama into Rurouni Kenshin.

Then he did a better job there as far as I am concerned.

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Originally Posted by Shikijin

Well, it did deserve it. They were 50 pages in the book. The problem was that the rest got compressed in 3 episodes, whereas the book is as long as Karen Bee.

That's exactly my issue. So when a scene like that gets the attention, which I just flat out disagree that it deserved so much attention, then I can only see this directing choice with disdain.

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Originally Posted by Shikijin

Contrary to your impression, this is what he actually did. Past a certain point though, it would become like that adaptation of Mizuiro Jidai where an episode centered around the main character having her first menstruation became her having a bad dream.

OK. I'll make sure to attribute more blame to Nisio, not that it matters. The source or not, I didn't like what I saw.

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Originally Posted by Shikijin

So when you are not catered to then it becomes shit? You are conceited.

Uh what? Yeah of course if the series is doing things I dislike, then I think it's bad. What am I supposed to admire it for doing something I don't like well? Great, I still dislike it though. Your point is lost on me here.

My take on the series is that it was "academically interesting" and certainly amusing and dramatic at spots but it didn't have quite the impact that Bakemonogatari had on me.

So if I gave Bake- an "A", I'm giving Nise- a "B" (or something similar along the scale somewhere).

And yeah, it should be quite possible to understand that something was done well even if you don't like the topic, that's debate 101

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But my experience with Shinbo as a director tells me this: he's as egotistical of a director as they come. You give him an excuse to unleash himself on a scene in the most pretentious and asinine manner possible, and he'll do it.

I'm really kind of with Reckoner there... Shinbo has done some brilliant stuff but he's also really been an arrogant bit of ego in terms of some of his "re-invisioning". With some material it works and with other material it fails. With Bake- and Nise- it was a bit of both.

I enjoyed Bake because I was just as intrigued by the mysterious air of the show (and the girls being haunted cursed) as I was entertained by conversations, referential humor, and bits of fan service.

Nise did not have the same balance of what I enjoyed from Bake, to me it was mostly fan service and conversation with trickles of mystery thrown in. Again, in my opinion the show should have been five, maybe six episodes at most.

Also all the little girl touching / pandering bothers the living fucking shit out of me. I hate it. A whole god damn lot. It was cute the first time but it became incessant and bothersome. No more of that please.

For me that tooth brush scene would have been better served as being put in the trash can.

Then how do you explain that Araragi and Karen are suddenly getting on so well? How do you explain the rest of incest-related gags that came after that scene? What if the following books make a reference to that scene?

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Anyways... While Itamura was the series director, Shinbo was still the "director" and part of the series composition. He has the final say in it and is pretty much the chief for this. When a production gets out of control I pin it on who really is in charge here.

I see no signs of production being out of control. It made its share of discutible choices (I hope there is an interview where they explain why they decided Tsukihi Phoenix had to have only 4 episodes), but let me get this straight: this series was never meant for the prude from the start. In fact, harem anime are not meant to be chaste. All the girls fell in love with the main character and there are a lot of suggestive situations, that's how a harem anime is. Nisio added his own spin and this is what makes this series stand out.

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Then he did a better job there as far as I am concerned.

Whether it was good or bad, the problem is that it misled you. Nisio builds gags from past gags. By heedlessly cutting stuff, the rest makes less sense. You are victim of a misunderstanding.

I think that, for the all the good things, presenting Bake as a "high-paced series" has been misleading. It's just that the first stories were short, that's all.

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That's exactly my issue. So when a scene like that gets the attention, which I just flat out disagree that it deserved so much attention, then I can only see this directing choice with disdain.

The toothbrush scene in itself was long just few minutes. It needed to be there, but frankly I don't really think it got that much attention from the anime staff. Certainly it got the attention of the audience, but as adaptation goes, that was the standard pace. The problem was only the decision of having Tsukihi Phoenix last only 4 episodes, which caused a lot of other things to be skipped, like what Araragi was thinking before kissing Tsukihi (then again, internal monologues are usually skipped anyway).

I'll say it clearly. This series is art. Post-modern art. Full of meta-jokes, witty and titillating. It has its highs and lows, and there are things Nisio can and can't do, but I'm glad I learned Japanese in order to read it. There are things you can cut to smooth the adaptation out, but please realize that what you want to do is akin to censor the series, and this is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Nise did not have the same balance of what I enjoyed from Bake

In fact I would say one of the strong points of the series is that each book got its own charm.

Then again, the adaptation in itself is a different matter. And I would say that Bake's adaptation was not really balanced, it tended more toward the serious side, though as an anime that worked well.

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to me it was mostly fan service and conversation with trickles of mystery thrown in.

The so-called fan service from the novels' point of view was just gags. You can see it as stereotypical situations main characters of anime found themselves in. The amusement comes from the way Araragi reacts to it, although this has mostly been lost in the adaptation. Anyway, the series had a strong comedic component from the beginning, and the sexual tension was there. The rest was just his chara development.

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Again, in my opinion the show should have been five, maybe six episodes at most.

No, you can't skip too many things or you won't understand anything that comes after that. In fact, with all the things they cut the stories barely made sense. And there would be no point in cutting all the comedy out of it.

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Also all the little girl touching / pandering bothers the living fucking shit out of me. I hate it. A whole god damn lot. It was cute the first time but it became incessant and bothersome. No more of that please.

In this regard, in the novels it was made clear. There are people Araragi can touch and people he can't touch. Underage girls has just become comic reliefs for his pervertedness, on the light he is officially not interested in them. He admitted the thing bothered him too

do note that in those "gags", there's often hidden meanings and words that pose forshadowing to future events that will happen.
also, those "gags" are there to show how araragi's relationship with the girls and how close he is to them. note how the previous arc girl gets screen time in the current one, its to show how the girl has improved/changed along with their feelings for araragi and vice versa on his side.

the monogatari series is pretty much only semi-serious(or semi-dark) than it seems to be advertised by others. the series is a lot more on parody and fun imo with interesting twists(like how araragi was actually the lost guy in mayoi snail, how nadeko had more than one curse in nadeko snake, how the bee was actually as fake as the instigator, etc.)
what really made the show was not the supernatural elements but more on the characters. how the characters have changed thanks to araragi. how they feel about araragi. and vice versa for araragi.

you just got yourself distracted by the "fanservice" than you would care to admit if you missed these points. I admit that I loved the "fanservice" but it was the hidden meaning behind those moments. at least none of it was like the typical "you saw my panties" where protag receives a slap. in this one, it showed how the characters are with each other and how it has changed. kinda like how in shounen, some characters fight to show how their relationship has gotten "better" after the others loss.

Wow did you miss the TWO times I had to bold something in my previous reply?

Also there's a difference between fanservice layered upon character progression and 'LETS PUT THE CAMERA'S POINT OF VIEW ON THE PAVEMENT AND HAVE HIS MIDDLE SCHOOL GRADE SISTER SQUAT DOWN TWICE IN FRONT OF IT'. The latter happened far, far more often.

I'm hardpressed to find the actual 'hidden meaning' behind that. The little girl pandering is still creepy shit regardless of what it was meant to add to the story.

was referring to reckoner.
as for that one, well it was to show how mayoi is one of the closest girls to araragi in actual friendship rather than the lovers kind. ignore their meaning of mayoi being araragi's "true love"(though in another point of view it could be correct )
and in that scene, araragi got a pie in the face IIRC. it was pretty much more on being a gag than "fanservice" as some people would understand the "creampie" joke if your knowledgeable about certain things by japan.

or if your referring to karen instead after that rockpaperscissor trick, then that was to show how hesitant and how "wrong" araragi's decision might be(he did say that maybe we shouldnt do it instead). for the fact of having your sister carry you and/or looking at your sister that way. meh, you choice on the meaning.

Only thing I felt was perhaps they should have divided the two books to equal screen time....

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the monogatari series is pretty much only semi-serious(or semi-dark) than it seems to be advertised by others. the series is a lot more on parody and fun imo with interesting twists(like how araragi was actually the lost guy in mayoi snail, how nadeko had more than one curse in nadeko snake, how the bee was actually as fake as the instigator, etc.)
what really made the show was not the supernatural elements but more on the characters. how the characters have changed thanks to araragi. how they feel about araragi. and vice versa for araragi.

It's more commentary through character interaction than anything else IMO...In a way that hypermodern surrealist art style SHAFT uses for it kinda fits perfectly...