This may be too early with this, but ech.I mentioned this a few days ago in the main Sm4sh modding thread, but for those who just lurk or don't read past thread pages, I'll give a rundown.

Ever since I've started playing Sm4sh and seeing the tier list, I've been wanting to make a balance overhaul to the majority of the cast. I would also like to eventually fix/remove/adjust various things that are jank about Sm4sh (Ex: Rage, Footstooling, Glitches, etc) when the tools are available.

My goal is to make every character viable in at least one way or another with no character being too bad to even bother with (Ex: Palutena, Zelda, etc) or too broken to even bother with (i.e. Bayonetta). Lower tier characters will be subject to various buffs, while higher tier characters will be left alone for the most part (unless an official patch overnerfed something and/or if something about them is broken).

The best I can do right now if Frame data, Attribute, and Hitbox edits, so Floating Point-related things (Ex: Witch Time, Counter damage multipliers, etc) cannot be changed at this current time until they're properly identified.

There's no reason for Sheik to have a godly neutral game, a godly recovery and an easy 50/50 kill opportunity from throws. If you're going to give her back her 50/50, nerf one of the other things I listed. IMO nerfing her Up B's distance (and perhaps removing the reappearance hitbox) would be the best change, as she'd keep her dominating presence on stage while actually having a weakness. I also don't see why you'd give her the old F-Air hitbox, as it was pretty ridiculous and the move is still one of the best aerials in the game.

As a ROB main here are some random things I'd like to see, but I might be a bit biased lol

- Back Air has less start up, less damage/knockback to make up for itit doesnt have to be as fast as it was in Brawl, but 19 frames is a bit much imo. - Same thing for Down Air. The hitbox is janky and takes forever to come out, this move is very hard to hit.- Forward Air comes out on frame 4ROB has a really tough time in the air (outside of maybe his Neutral Air which has a year of start up), giving him a fast aerial would be nice.- Lower level players complain about gyro a lot, so mayyyyybe nerf it a bit? Honestly don't know how. Maybe increase the complete charge time from 90 frames to 120 frames, or add a few start up/end lag frames but dont overdo it doe- Fix his Side B pls. People drop out of it all the time, its reflecting hitboxes are really inconsistent, the move has a billion frames of end lag.. it just isn't good.

That's about it. Only other thing I'd like to add is, consider just giving Marth his exact Brawl frame data/damage. He'd probably be balanced just fine, and super fun to play.

The reason why I reverted the 1.1.5 changes to Sheik were because I felt they were unwarranted changes, especially since Bayonetta's a thing. I could possibly revert my Forward Air revert, but I'd like to talk to people who know Shiek through and through.

Well yes, Bayonetta is a thing, but nobody wants her to be a thing (the way she is now) and you are nerfing her quite a bit, so. No reason to make Sheik S-Tier again while everyone else is A+ Tier, you know.

Well yes, Bayonetta is a thing, but nobody wants her to be a thing (the way she is now) and you are nerfing her quite a bit, so. No reason to make Sheik S-Tier again while everyone else is A+ Tier, you know.

Again, I'll talk with people who know Shiek, and I'll make an attempt weed out and clear bias (for or against).

Edit: After a minor chat with someone, I'll consider reverting my changes to Down Throw. I'll also consider nerfing her needle damage potential.

Edit 2: Yeah, I'm gonna revert my changes to her throws and Forward Air, but I'll be buffing her Back Air.

You have my interest, but the fact that you listed Palutena and Zelda as first examples of unplayability over Ganondorf and are still riding the Bayonetta Is Brawl Meta Knight train has me questioning everything I know

doesn't help that un-nerfing characters that are still tournament relevant after nerfs, like especially diddy kong, is somehow considered ideal

doesn't help that un-nerfing characters that are still tournament relevant after nerfs, like especially diddy kong, is somehow considered ideal

The revival of Hoo Hah was solely for the purpose of Memes, but I've made sure to nerf Up Air [it kills at around 150%, as opposed to mid 80% (though I may revert this if it proves to be too much of an issue]. I've also reverted my Shiek changes since the first post after some discussion with someone.

You're free to suggest your own changes though. With various characters, I'd need to weed out any bias (including my own) towards various characters to prevent overnerfing or overbuffing.