Think the Ando situation needs some perspective,Utd signed him for 18mill as a teenager and at the time he was regarded as one of the best prospects in the world.Now 5 yrs later how much progression has he made?i'd have to say very little.I wouldn't mind if he was working hard every game but half the time he just doesn't seem to care.
So don't agree saying Ando is getting a raw deal,i'd say Ando hasn't committed himself enough to realise his talent,all of us keep waiting for the world class Ando to appear but apart from the odd glimpse it's 5 yrs down the road and we're still waiting

Costas - Somethings, amiss mate. I take slims point about top defenders not becoming bad players overnight. The ability of our coaching staff to get to the root of the problem, won't come soon enough for me.

Just a tiny Costat to prove my point. From 04 to 08 we conceded more than 2 goals in 7 games. From 08 until the present day, we've conceded more than 2 goals in 14 games. I agree that it's not about any defender individually. It's about how the team defends as a unit and how close the lines are.

@Willie
CQ has been gone a long time... but last season we played some of the most boring football according to some, but we conceded very very few goals isn't it?
So I'm less inclined to think about CQ's influence on the team... more of SAF simply going "let's try something different since we're transitioning to a new team".
We've begun to see more of the team for the next 5 years actually, any rotation going on is really due to the injuries we seem to be cursed with.

Regarding Anderson, I'm still hopefully he starts putting in a bit more effort in his passing... he could then be very effective for us.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed, the (lack of) height in our central midfielders is causing us to lose the edge when it comes to contesting for high balls (e.g. from goal kicks). That's why we're getting the impression that our midfield can't seem to win balls... because goal kicks, regardless of which side it came from, after a few headers, seems like land with the opposition 7 out of 10 times. Especially in that game against City. And Otelul as well...

slim @ 23:08: "give Denton a free first class pass on this one. Dimitar could have been counted today, he’s a senior player and he didn’t show up. Not good enough, its useless stringing out one player though"

Right, THAT was the point I was making AGAIN - "Dimitar could have been counted [on] today, he's a senior player and he didn't show up".

Contrary to what some of you think, I'd actually be quite happy to be proven wrong but the evidence of Dimmy's performances since the FACup semi-final seems pretty overwhelming to me. Doing well against Aldershot doesn't quite cut it.

I usually comment about Dimmy when someone with a bad case of unrequited BerbaLove argues that we need to "respect" the guy because he's claimed to "love the club" which is, I think, a case of massively missing the point that the guy is being paid to perform on the field - and he's just not doing it when given the opportunity.

Hate to say it, but from all the observations I made from last nights game, the most glaring was Berbatov's performance. His body language was terrible. People have called him a sulk, lazy, etc for years and I've never agreed with it, and tbf I still don't, but his particular performance yesterday was indefensible imo. Even if he cost 15M, as a United striker you would expect a better performance from a player being given a chance to shine. I know our team hasn't been consistent, so its hard to single players out, but he looked knackered after 60 mins ffs. Hate to say it, but a player of Dimmy's age and experience should've been on fire after being on the bench for so long. Look at Owen's brief appearance, he was brilliant. Rio can return from injury and 9/10 hit the ground running. Thats how you grab your chances, and thats what you expect from older players. I know he had a hand in the first goal, and he was involved some what in our better moves, but that aside, he didn't play like a STRIKER desperate to score and stay in the first team. He just didn't.

If anything, Dimmy has now confirmed he is fourth choice to start. Welbeck and Hernandez are neck and neck in the battle to start with Rooney. That trio are the first choice in a 4-3-3, and that was the worst thing about last nights match for me, Berbatov not taking his chance to show us what he's got - its not like he's the youngest player in the world is it?

Very happy with our result and Benfica dropping points, but that aside, Dimmy's performance didn't fill me with hope for his future at the Club past January.

Rooney in centre mid won't be a permanent thing, its just that we had nobody else available yesterday. He did well in terms of his passing and industry...but he's too deep for me. It's not even like Scholesy...who went from being a striker to an ATTACKING midfielder (i.e someone who gets forward). Last couple games, Rooney has played like the Scholesy of 2006-2011.....sitting deep and spraying it about.

That's a waste of his energy IMO, and we missed his abilities further up the pitch. I'm inclined to think that if he'd been playing up front, we may well have killed the game off long before the 85th minute.

And also...against top class opposition, I can't see Rooney doing the business in that position anyway. Something I noticed against Everton (not so much last night coz we had most of the ball and Galati rarely came at us) was that he's a bit slack in the tackle. What I mean by that is.....he's brilliant at tracking back (which is why he's played on the wing a lot). But that involves him chasing a player and nicking the ball away from him.

When you're playing in midfield, its a totally different situation. The play is generally in FRONT of you, and players are coming AT you. Tackling technique is therefore gonna be totally different....and to be quite frank, at times on Saturday it was obvious that he was a striker playing in midfield. Some non existent challenges which allowed Everton to bypass him on a few occasions.

Balaji @ 7:04: "Being objective is not what I am here for, there are countless other critics and skeptics to take care of that. I am here to show my adulation for Berba, and I do that. If that bores you or others, then you can feel free to skip past my Berbalove posts."

OK, I can live with that honest response.

What really, really, really pisses me off are the BerbaLovers who simply can't come to terms with the evidence that the guy has only had one good half-season in almost seven half-seasons at UTD.

What I have tried to offer is a reasoned discussion about why Dimmy has fallen down the pecking order - now, he might just be #4, but only because LitttleMIkey just can't stay healthy.

I've tried to point out that for all the silky skills, the end product just isn't there when it counts.

And yet the BerbaLovers accuse me of "having an agenda". In actual fact, I was extremely happy when SAF went to the wall to sign Dimmy. He seemed like he had the ability to be TheNewCantona - and there is no disputing his ability - but he just doesn't have the heart or compete-level that's required to succeed @ UTD.

So, I don't mind your expression of unrequited BerbaLove - you have the strength-of-character to acknowledge that it's a form of craziness. I understand that. It makes sense. You're not claiming that the guy is the new Messiah - and it seems that you can live with the understanding that he's really just a naughty boy.

Sparkz @ 14:31: "That’s a waste of his energy IMO, and we missed his abilities further up the pitch. I’m inclined to think that if he’d been playing up front, we may well have killed the game off long before the 85th minute."

I see your point-of-view but I have to disagree. Having TheWayneBoy really solidified the midfield. He was almost constantly "touching" the ball and his defensive game wasn't too bad - he'd get that up-to-speed pretty quickly in my opinion.

The "midfield problem" that so many of us wring their hands about is really a "formation problem" since SAF persists in playing with two wingers which leaves the central midfield man short against team that play a narrow formation. Given the way that other teams line up, I'm not altogether sure that having BOTH Keane-o and Robbo would be the solution to the current "midfield problem".

With DannyTheLad and Chicharito there's enough talent to cover the two front positions if TheWaynBoy is re-located - and, despite my oft-voiced scepticism, Dimmy (and LittleMikey) provides veteran back-up (and so does Ashley Young who like to play as a withdrawn striker). AND we can always hope that KikoTheKid can actually realize his potential.

For me, the key point about Rooney/midfield is that the guy is a footie player, first and foremost. His UTD career has shown that he is versatile and willing to play for the team. He likes to be involved and as a box-to-box midfielder he's going to be in the middle of everything - more than when he's a striker, waiting to be served.

Denton -- I am unsure about Rooney as a midfielder. The best I can do is that I think he has the potential. He certainly has the energy :-) I thought he did OK yesterday. He looked like someone who was playing in an unfamiliar position (which is what he was), but he also looked like someone who could make a go of it if given a proper opportunity (which would require time).

But that's about the extent of my crystal ball :-) I do agree that we have enough firepower (and reserves of firepower) up-front.

Honestly, I think we all just have to get used to the idea that we are a team in transition. We have been for several years and most likely that will continue for several more. As I pointed out the other day, one third of our squad is at the age where, in the next 2-4 years, they can be expected to retire, move on or accept a greatly diminished role if they stay. The road ahead is extremely unclear -- its course is full of twists and turns, peaks and dips, and the road itself is pot-holed with uncertainty and populated by signposts that are unreliable at best, and at worst are missing or misleading.

But we know the destination, even if we don't know its direction or distance, or what obstacles lie in wait between here and there. It's Sir Alex's job to get us there -- he's the general in charge, the field marshall -- and the players are the troops. We're just the civilians -- it's our job to support, and to hope.

@Denton- When Keano and Robbo were playing...we played a similar formation to nowadays? 2 flying wingers (Kanchelskis and Giggs)....2 centre mids (Keano & Ince/Robbo)....and one striker in the hole behind another (Cantona & Hughes). I will accept your point that other teams play differently nowadays though.

As for Rooney.....47 goals in his last 69 games he's got. Plus countless assists. He's also our best striker. Playing him in a deep lying midfield role is a waste, you want him as close to the oppostion goal as possible.

I could see him as an attacking midfielder (i.e someone to sit behind him, and allow him to get forward). This way we can make use of his passing and workrate, without really losing his ability to get goals and assists. But a deep lying playmaker is not something we should be looking at......against both Everton and Galati he didn't have a SINGLE touch in the opposition penalty area, which is not how you want him operating.

In any case, this is a temporary thing. Let's say when Cleverley comes back. What do we do then? There's no way we're gonna go with Cleverley + Rooney in the middle of the park surely? I can see Rooney playing there maybe when options are limited (i.e last night)....and tbh, after Cleverley, he is the next most creative midfielder we have available.

@Paul Parker
I thought Anderson's was most glaring. I was really believing he has turned the corner, but he really wasn't putting his heart into the game when it comes to passing. Is it just really a technical weakness of his? I don't think so, because he can pass properly and well. i just hope we'll see better from him in the months ahead, because it definitely looks like SAF is out to play him into the team.
As for Berbatov, he hasn't had much games so far, and I'm sure he'll be contributing a solid game soon enough.

YorYor - I don't have the stats to hand, but Anderson has one of the best pass completion rates in the EPL this season for a CM. He didn't have a brilliant game yesterday, and when Park came on the difference was huge, but theres no way he had a worse game then Dimmy imo, and Ando's performances have been an improvement this season. What more can we ask of him at th estart of November? Imo mate, you'd be guilty of impatience if you're already expecting him to turn the corner.

How do you expect him to do that? Both Cleverly and Welbeck have played more EPL first team football than Anderson over the last 2 seasons, and it shows. Ando's had no loan spell, no pre-season except this year, and he's averaged 17 games per season while sitting behind Scholes. Now the Prince has gone, at least give Ando till the end of the season to show what he's learned. Anything else isn't fair on him.

Also, when people talk about young players sitting on the bench Anderson is an example of that. Scholes started more games than him every season they played together, and rightly so. That means the best run Anderson has had in ANY first team is five years ago when he first signed. He's hardly gonna magically become first team without doing the work. Cleverly, Welbeck and Nani have all tucked that important season as a starter under their belt, and with a hole in midfield, Anderson is finally getting his chance now.

He's been very patient with us considering he could have demanded a move for 4 straight summers. A lot of big clubs wanted him and still want him, but he chose to sit behind Scholes. I think we should return the favour and remain patient with him tbf, but thats just my opinion mate. Remember, people lost patience with Nani didn't they? Now he's up for a Ballon d'Or after helping us to a record 19th. Nani hasn't been first team till recent seasons either, so his performance will only get better. Ando needs to games he was getting in his first season, then he can build from there, and im sure he will. Thank fuck Alex has more patience than the punters aye?

No dispute about that, but last night was really frustrating from Anderson. Giving away passes in our own third is a cardinal sin for a midfielder isn't it? Carrick did that and got chastised.
I could bear with it if he couldn't make passes connect in the opposition third when trying to build play... but trying to pass the ball out of defence but giving it straight to the opposition... and a few consecutive times at that.
Having said that, I'm not being impatient with him, but he does need to make it seem like he's trying harder. Last night was the first time I got so frustrated watching Anderson, really.
Compared to Nani, Nani was always trying, even if the things he did didn't quite come off, and people criticising him for making the wrong decisions. But he was always trying to make something happen, and his potential was there for all to see.

Anyway, enough of the cons, at least everyone's seeing what a great prospect Jones is. And everyone was wondering who the heck he was when United announced the signing. Just like Smalling.
These two have got to be the best 2 young unheard-of defenders ever signed by SAF.
Now if only the da Silva brothers' fitness could be improved somewhat... their bodies seem unable to take the strain in the cold & wet Manchester weather.

YorYor, agreed mate, Ando was frustrating to watch last night, and when the experienced Park came on he put the Brazilians performance to shame really (even though Ando was only one of 11 very average performers out there)

Spot on about Jones mate, I've heard him being compared to all sorts of greats since he signed, but he is shaping up to be a diamond of a find. Even he was guilty of giving the ball away in soft situations last night, but his overall performance was excellent, and he had a deflected shot which looked bang on target. He really has settled into our Club, and he's a joy to watch because he plays with his head up. Whats really helped him was his brilliant season with Blackburn last year. He played really well against us, and regularly made their starting 11 when fit.

Playing regularly is vital, and he played 10 EPL games more than Anderson did last year, and it shows when you consider their contributions. A young age really isn't the issue with footballers, its all about first team experience, and had we signed Jones 2 seasons ago he wouldn't have arrived with the experience of playing 28 EPL games in one season. Now he's here, Jones is benefiting from building on last season with a much better squad, and long may it continue. Smallings is a bit special as well, because he hadn't played more than 12 games before joining us from Fulham, but he's arrived like a seasoned veteran, and he's been every bit as good as Jones. Those two are worth their weight in gold imo.

As for Ando, I'll reserve my final judgement till he gets a full season under his belt, and he hasn't done that since he signed. Yeah he was average last night, but he was brilliant against Arsenal, solid against Chelsea, he scored against Spurs and he broke the deadlock v Norwich. Give him till May mate, its only Nov 3rd!

"Rooney, deployed in a midfield role, said: "I played there a lot when I was younger and it's something which means you get a lot of the ball and we had to defend at times as well tonight. The manager asked me to do it and I'm happy to do it.

"I've said before I feel I'm a good enough footballer to play anywhere on the pitch.

"I'm not being big-headed, I feel I am capable of doing that and if the manager wants me to play there, I've no problem doing that."

From the horse's mouth: "I'm a good enough footballer to play anywhere on the pitch". I think he's right, too. It's really a question of where he's deployed to the optimum benefit of the team - note "optimum benefit", not maximum benefit.

The point here is that what works best for SAF when he puts together an eleven to do the best job possible. TheWayneBoy is better - "maximum benefit" - as a striker but he wasn't too shabby in midfield. As he said, "I'm a good enough footballer".

Denton Davey, I applaud all your effort and willingness to take abuse.
I hate "Bashing Man Utd Players"
I see what you see in Berba,
Thanks for Berba's great play last first half of the year, outside that? He boils my blood the way he whines, pouts throws his arms around. Slow to defend if he defends at all. Then to make there point (some not all) that Berba should start they bash the other strikers.
What out side of a side 2 team has he bought to the table? Looks good, is cool? I do not see it.
Then the gaffer say's Rooney we need you at CM for a stop gap measure. OK SAF, I can play CB as well if you need me there. Then Rooney has a MOTM performance at CM.
People wanted Berba to start he did, did he grab his chance to make SAF pick him again?
Jones yelled at him for not hustling to get a through in. Anderson as well for his lake of movement to get a pass. Then he is lazy getting back on side to mess up fast countering football.
I hope is is gone, the sooner the better.

As I said mate. I'm not saying we should bring CQ back. I was expanding on a point, made in the forum by another lad. As for Berba? He wasn't great last night. i won't single him out though. I thought there was a few, that were off pace. Rooney done a job in midfield. The best he could do in the circumstances. Long term, I'll be surprised if he stays there. He's one of the best attacking players in world football. He seemed to find his place, playing in the hole. That's where he should stay. We'll see what the manager thinks about that. ;)

Zibbie @ 19:21: The BerbaLovers are being done-in by his play (or lack, thereof).

Still, it's a team/squad game and while I think he should have been sold in the summer (for 18 million !) to PSG, I think that SAF was taking the long view - and, also, having slashed the wages-bill so drastically last summer, there was probably money in the kitty to pay for insurance. And, really, that's what Dimmy now is - an expensive insurance policy.

AND, in that regard, the events of the other night might actually (and ironically) have enhanced his value - LittleMikey stretched/sprained/tore some muscle or ligament or whatever and TheWayneBoy's cameo in midfield showed how his re-deployment can optimize the squad. SO, as a back-up, behind Chicharito and DannyTheLad, there's a role for Dimmy. The world truly is odd.

WillieRedNut @ 20:49: "De Rossi again? Have you watched him and Roma lately? Both are stinking the house out. Poor mans Keane. We need a younger, energetic CM. Tiote/Sissoko/M’Villa."

You've got me. I haven't watched any SerieA this year, and not much the year before. I've always been a fan of De Rossi's full-blooded approach - but he might also be past it. Gattuso is also someone I admired in the Italian team that won the World Cup in 2006 but he is now woeful, playing on fumes. I'd imagine that De Rossi might have a bit of a renaissance if he was removed from that mess at ASRoma; but, then again, he might also be no more than a shadow of his former self. That former self was one hell of a player.

The key in "trading players" is getting a guy when his up-side is bigger than his down-side/reputation. But, sometimes trading my problem for their problem works for both of us.

I don't disagree that Tiote looks like a powerful , energetic defensive CM but, really, SAF hasn't had much use for this sort of player. The closest he's come to that kind of guy was when he went to the wall to sign Owen Hargreaves, who was supposed to be "Gattuso" to Carrick's "Pirlo".

Well, just because he hasn't before....don't mean he won't change his stance in the future. What I know is, our midfield isn't up to the task on a consistent basis. A rethink, on what we're doing, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Cleverley can't do it all on his own. He needs help. De Rossi is a declining force. I've stated what I believe we need. I hope the manager is thinking along the same lines, but have my doubts.

denton, it's just blind faith in Berbatov I guess. Crunch time in the Christmas period will definitely see him get some game time, and perhaps I should say that I'm hopeful he'll put in a telling shift then.
Also, I don't think he has only had a good half season. He was one of the key players unlocking defences for Ronaldo to score in THAT season.
Which just brings me back to the point about there being insufficient bodies in the box with Rooney playing deep/in midfield. CR was an egoistic maniac who only wanted to score and he got himself into the box all the time, regardless of who had the ball because he didn't care whether he thought they would be able to find him. His posture then was "I'm going to be in there, find me if you can and I'll score".

Willie, I know you weren't asking for CQ to be back. I think the club would've already taken his "best practices" onboard and integrated into the training regime. It's not like with his departure, the club wouldn't use his training methods.
It'd be great to see someone like Solskjaer get another year under his belt and come in as SAF's assistant. And even remain as assistant to the next manager so that he gets the experience he needs but not the pressure and the extremely short fuses of the "modern fan".

Dont' know about Berbalovers, but I find it funny how Berbabashers turn a blind eye to the fact that no one around Berbatov was doing their job properly. Yes, he cut a frustrated figure. Mainly because no one was linking up with him properly. Notorious mentioned it as well. The best chance he had, he chased the ball down on his own. Some lazy bastard! Maybe Berbalovers are stll giving him too much credit. But Berbabashers definitely don't give him enough.

@Costas - I agree mate, everybody played poorly the other night, but my particular gripe with Berbatov is down to his personal performance in the game. Hands down he had more to prove than anybody else in that 11 because hes the least likely to start again! Owen when fit is ahead of Berbatov, and he looked on course to push Rooney for MOTM until he was injured. Owens been sitting out just like Dimmy, but his hunger and passion for the game showed and thats the type of impact I expected from Berbatov, esp as he's currently fit and fighting to get back into the team.

My own criticism of Dimmy only covers that one game btw, but while its true we didn't create much, he did see most of our best delivery, and tbh he just didn't do himself justice. We know what a talent he is, so it was disappointing to see him easily bullied off the ball more than once in the box, or running the ball into a cul-de-sac. Two incidents summed up his night for me - his rushed shot into the side netting, and him casually walking around off side when he should've been alert and running through clear on goal. Even though we were average Owen and Rooney still had an impact , and after being sat on the bench I hoped and expected Berbatov would be the most determined player out there. He didn't look it, and its a shame because I've been calling for him to play more games. But if thats what Alex has seen in training this season I can understand why he's not picked to start. The performances from Welbeck and Hernandez since September have been lightyears ahead. Based on current form Dimmy is only ahead of Macheda, and rightly so. He should start behind Rooney, Danny, Chica or Owen when those players are fit, sad but true. Hopefully he impresses on his next start, whenever that may be. Brilliant player, just hope he gets into goal scoring gear this season.

With all due respect mate, I think Owen came off way too soon for any of us to assume whether he would have pushed Rooney for man of the match.

As for the pecking order, it depends on what you look for in strikers. If it's just goals, then yes, Berbatov is 5th in line right now. However, with his touch and link up play, I personally believe that he brings more to the team in general than Owen and Hernandez. No doubt the latter two's goalscoring instincts, but given time on the ball, they haven't impressed me as much. Heck, I'd say that Owen is better than Chicharito in that department. Now I agree that against Galati we didn't see a lot of Berbatov's talent on the ball, but that had to do with the fact that the team wasn't linking up well up front. Nani, Valencia and Hernandez didn't play any better than him imo. He didn't know what to do with the ball most of the times, ended up losing it and then showing his frustration. Of course he could have helped his cause by scoring that chance. No doubt about that. Doesn't totally let him off the hook, but I do believe his dry spell in the Ch.League weighed heavily on him there.

I don't believe he will get many chances to impress from now on. Probably the Palace game and that's it. Until things take their course in January. And even in that game, I don't expect him to impress either. Because one of his mental blocks (and call it a weakness but he definitely has it) is the fact that no matter what he does, he won't reclaim his spot. His exclusion from the Ch.League squad sealed his fate in that regard.

I noticed that about Hernandez as well - he isn't always brilliant at link up play, and that was the only thing missing from his game in an otherwise brilliant first season.

But credit to him he's getting much more involved this season, and theres plenty of room to improve as he's still a young striker. You are right tho, Owen's link up play is better, in fact I'd say Mikey's passing over his career is up there with the best I've seen from Berbatov in any shirt. Also, I'd have to agree with Alex that Owen looked right up for it v Galati, and even tho he wasn't on that long his impact was clear for all to see. Hate to think how the game would've progressed if we didn't get an early goal to settle us, Galati are current Champions over a season after all. Owen showed his class to put us ahead (drawing the defenders) and he looked good to score himself imo.

Alex is constantly battling complacency but its unavoidable at the highest levels. The team as a whole played complacently I thought, and if Rooney was up front as normal im sure he would've had a quiet one as well. Thats why I mentioned Berbatov in particular - I was happy to see him start, but even tho he's not injured he didn't play like a man DESPERATE to become first team. Course it takes time to get back into the swing of things, but Dimmy didn't give 100% imo and out of all our players HE was the one who really needed to give a good account of himself. Just disappointed for him really. I expected to see him push for a start against Sunderland, and maybe he will start today anyway, but I didn't see anything that would warrant it. Wish I did mate, but thank fuck for Hernandez and Welbeck aye? Right now they're making Berbatov's form this season irrelevant tbh.