Ep.177: Jamie Lowell, MI Legalize & Nurse Heather

Ep.177: Jamie Lowell, MI Legalize & Nurse Heather

Nurse Heather returns as she’s just launched Nature Nurse which truly focuses on plant medicine including but not limited to cannabis. She even gives us a great Hippocrates quote, so stay tuned for that specifically and just enjoy Nurse Heather being Nurse Heather generally. Jamie Lowell then takes us through a history of legal cannabis in Michigan. He discusses how the upstart program got going and the various hurdles it’s faced along the way and continue to face. Jamie does move around during the interview- so please bear with him. He also discusses the concept of conspiracy and conspiracy theory, so know that going in. But then again we haven’t spoken to too many folks in Michigan. Jamie Lowell preceded by Nurse Heather.

Transcript:

Speaker 1: Jamie Lowell and Nurse Heather,

Speaker 2: nurse Heather returns as she's just launched nature nurse, which truly focuses on plant medicine, including but not limited to cannabis. She even gives us a great hippocrates quote, so stay tuned for that specifically and just enjoy nurse heather for being nurse Heather. Generally Jamie lol then takes us through a history of legal cannabis in Michigan. He discusses how the upstart program got going and the various hurdles it's faced along the way and continues to face. Jamie does move around during the interview, so please bear with him. He also discusses the concept of conspiracy conspiracy theory, so know that going in, but then again, we haven't spoken to too many folks. Can Michigan? Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the handle can economy. That's two ends of the world economy became in law, proceeded by a nurse.

Speaker 1: Oh, okay. That's fair. That's wonderful. I was born ready. I know you were at nurse. Heather, you're back. The good news is, of course the good news is that you and I have been keeping touch, uh, in between interviews, so, you know, it hasn't been like a year that we've spoken to each other. That's what friends do they stay in touch. See that, that's you said it. And I love it. And I agree. So, um, the reason that we're talking today is because this weekend it happened, the launch it, did we, we launched nature's nurse. Very big way. Alright, so nature's nurse tell us everything that we need to know. Well, first of all, it's nature nurse with no ss and

Speaker 3: that's okay because it's a common mistake, Edward News. So it's nature nurse products and services. And we did, we launched this weekend at the southern California, a conference cannabis conference and expo and you know, everything went off beautifully, better than I could've ever anticipated or expected. And the thing is, you know, nature's nurse would imply that we were nursing nature, but the truth is nature is the nurse. So this is nature nurse and we utilize all plants, not just cannabis to support and stimulate the endocannabinoid system to help humans with their balance and homeostasis and overall health.

Speaker 1: Alright, so let's dive in there. You know, at first blush I would think, okay, here's, here's a cannabis product. You're saying no, it's not a cannabis product exclusively. Tell us about it.

Speaker 3: Well, what we've done, I've spent the last two years actually researching and working to launch this brand. So it's not something we just slap, happy put together. Um, I've been researching other plants because I come from that of holistic place as a nurse as well as knowing about traditional healing from the native American and Hispanic background that I come from. So I'm, I'm aware of lots of plants in urbalism and so the last two years I've been spending my time researching these plants that I know are medicinal and valuable and seeing how they stimulate support and enrich the endocannabinoid system. So we've now formulated products that have other plans other than cannabis as well as products that have other plants, including cannabis. And this really allows us to reach a wide range of people, those who are seeking the cannabis alone, those who are looking for cbd or those who want to try something that maybe just has hemp seed oil in it, not pure cannabis or the cdd enriched.

Speaker 1: So what other plants, just to give us an idea, you know, what else are you, what else is involved here besides cannabis, you know, such things as

Speaker 3: well. You know, it's interesting to note that cannabis, we're, we're looking at strains, right? So when you look at your strange or indicates sativa, we're kind of past that in science, what do we do is we look at the plants and we know they have a cannabinoid profile. So you can have a cannabis that has 19 percent thc and that that plant can either be sativa, Endeca, depending upon drum roll please Dah Dah, Dah, Dah, terpene. And so the terpenoid profile is very, very special to the cannabis plant. But the thing about Turpines, they come in all kinds of other plants. So for instance, has a high level of Linalool, which is a terpene that helps with relaxation, sleep, anxiety. We also have plants like oranges that have a high concentration of limiting and that's a, that's a terpene that you would find like in your lemon skunks and your Jack Herrera and things like that. So taking, you know, these other plants that have these turpines and utilizing them to create products to promote health is what we've done.

Speaker 1: Jamie Lowell and Nurse Heather,

Speaker 2: nurse Heather returns as she's just launched nature nurse, which truly focuses on plant medicine, including but not limited to cannabis. She even gives us a great hippocrates quote, so stay tuned for that specifically and just enjoy nurse heather for being nurse Heather. Generally Jamie lol then takes us through a history of legal cannabis in Michigan. He discusses how the upstart program got going and the various hurdles it's faced along the way and continues to face. Jamie does move around during the interview, so please bear with him. He also discusses the concept of conspiracy conspiracy theory, so know that going in, but then again, we haven't spoken to too many folks. Can Michigan? Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the handle can economy. That's two ends of the world economy became in law, proceeded by a nurse.

Speaker 1: Oh, okay. That's fair. That's wonderful. I was born ready. I know you were at nurse. Heather, you're back. The good news is, of course the good news is that you and I have been keeping touch, uh, in between interviews, so, you know, it hasn't been like a year that we've spoken to each other. That's what friends do they stay in touch. See that, that's you said it. And I love it. And I agree. So, um, the reason that we're talking today is because this weekend it happened, the launch it, did we, we launched nature's nurse. Very big way. Alright, so nature's nurse tell us everything that we need to know. Well, first of all, it's nature nurse with no ss and

Speaker 3: that's okay because it's a common mistake, Edward News. So it's nature nurse products and services. And we did, we launched this weekend at the southern California, a conference cannabis conference and expo and you know, everything went off beautifully, better than I could've ever anticipated or expected. And the thing is, you know, nature's nurse would imply that we were nursing nature, but the truth is nature is the nurse. So this is nature nurse and we utilize all plants, not just cannabis to support and stimulate the endocannabinoid system to help humans with their balance and homeostasis and overall health.

Speaker 1: Alright, so let's dive in there. You know, at first blush I would think, okay, here's, here's a cannabis product. You're saying no, it's not a cannabis product exclusively. Tell us about it.

Speaker 3: Well, what we've done, I've spent the last two years actually researching and working to launch this brand. So it's not something we just slap, happy put together. Um, I've been researching other plants because I come from that of holistic place as a nurse as well as knowing about traditional healing from the native American and Hispanic background that I come from. So I'm, I'm aware of lots of plants in urbalism and so the last two years I've been spending my time researching these plants that I know are medicinal and valuable and seeing how they stimulate support and enrich the endocannabinoid system. So we've now formulated products that have other plans other than cannabis as well as products that have other plants, including cannabis. And this really allows us to reach a wide range of people, those who are seeking the cannabis alone, those who are looking for cbd or those who want to try something that maybe just has hemp seed oil in it, not pure cannabis or the cdd enriched.

Speaker 1: So what other plants, just to give us an idea, you know, what else are you, what else is involved here besides cannabis, you know, such things as

Speaker 3: well. You know, it's interesting to note that cannabis, we're, we're looking at strains, right? So when you look at your strange or indicates sativa, we're kind of past that in science, what do we do is we look at the plants and we know they have a cannabinoid profile. So you can have a cannabis that has 19 percent thc and that that plant can either be sativa, Endeca, depending upon drum roll please Dah Dah, Dah, Dah, terpene. And so the terpenoid profile is very, very special to the cannabis plant. But the thing about Turpines, they come in all kinds of other plants. So for instance, has a high level of Linalool, which is a terpene that helps with relaxation, sleep, anxiety. We also have plants like oranges that have a high concentration of limiting and that's a, that's a terpene that you would find like in your lemon skunks and your Jack Herrera and things like that. So taking, you know, these other plants that have these turpines and utilizing them to create products to promote health is what we've done.

Speaker 1: So it really is. It's nature, so it's a kind of a short, but it's lavender, it's oranges, it's everything that kind of plays with your endocannabinoid system. Uh, you know, well, what I have been shocked to figure out where to start to reckon with is the fact that you've been talking about this for years. I'm just kind of see a really starting to conceive of the fact that my body has an endoccanabinoid system which matches with cannabis and other things in nature, which is remote. That's astounding.

Speaker 3: We are products of nature. I mean, we were all created somehow and before we had pharmacies and doctors, we had healers and plant medicine. And I believe that over the last 70, 80 years of prohibition, I'm eliminating this one plant from our life, this plant that actually does support the balance of all of our other systems. Um, it's created what we've seen as an increase in a lot of autoimmune disorders, cancers, um, you know, these neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and, you know, hippocrates said, let thy food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food and we really need to get back to nature and feed our bodies, get out of the fast food line, you know, get, get away from all of the pharmaceuticals and the chemicals come back to nature. She's here to nurse us.

Speaker 1: Uh, that's a, that's a good tagline there. You might want to write that down. That's probably something that you already had conceived of. Um, no, that's, it all kind of adds up. It all kind of makes sense. I know that you guys have been working on this, you know, for, for a while and it is finally here as far as where it's available and you know, and all that. Um, if I'm in New York, which you know, I am, can I get a nature nurse product or not, you know, where can I get it? If so,

Speaker 3: absolutely. So that's really was our, that was our business model, was to create products that, that could be shipped all over the world as well as creating products that needed to be produced in the legal states. Legal Cannabis states according to pause. So for instance, you and New York, you could go on a nature nurse health.com and you can purchase any of our natural line products as well as any of our cbd enriched products. Now, if you were in California and you had a patient card you could go to, we have our products in the care, the apothecary dispensary here in San Diego as well as Robertson and wonderland who are pre ICO dispensaries in La. And so those are the three dispensaries where are thc products are currently at. But we'll be expanding that throughout California will then be moving, uh, to, to create thc products and Colorado and New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada all within the next six months.

Speaker 1: All within the next six months. Yes sir. Quick. Yeah. When do you sleep?

Speaker 3: What's that? What's the thing was, you know, we had this event over the weekend and I gave my all, you know, I gave my all set but I never in my life slept through an entire Monday and today is Tuesday, but it feels like my Monday because I lost a day somewhere. So I did sleep yesterday.

Speaker 1: You did do it. So it was the full nurse, heather is what people were getting basically is what you're saying over the week.

Speaker 3: That's it. If you showed up and you got a big hug from nurse Heather, you were getting my own.

Speaker 1: This is fantastic. So, uh, I mean, uh, you've got it up and running. Um, expansion is coming to these other states. Um, you know, how much are you paying attention to? Uh, whether, you know, x state goes legal as far as don't use or not. I mean, uh, or, or, you know, do you just see this as medicine and we're just gonna, you know, play, play with medical for the time being or you know, what, what's the, what's the vision there?

Speaker 3: Well, I am nurse Heather and I to have patients and this, for me, cannabis really is a revolution in healthcare and although the recreational market is coming on and it's rocking and rolling and we'll probably play there a little bit. Um, my, my goal is to promote health. So even as a healthcare provider, we encourage healthy recreational activities and I do believe that there is benefits to the recreational use of cannabis. It's a social thing. It's, um, it's beneficial for you and healthy whether you know it or not. I do believe that every use of cannabis is a medicinal use because you're feeding your endocannabinoid system whether you know it or not. Because as you said before, set. I have an endocannabinoid system and so to you, we all do. And it's really important to know that

Speaker 1: it's a, it's so cool what's happening. And, uh, you are, uh, you're an important person and you're doing important thing. So I wanted to make sure that to get caught up and let folks know where to where to go. Um, what was it? Nature, nurse

Speaker 3: nature. Nurse health.com.

Speaker 1: There we go. Okay. So we'll do that. And then we've asked you, you know, the, the final three questions, but uh, because this is a shorter conversation, I'll just ask the one a which is a new, a song for the soundtrack of nurse Heather's life, uh, at one track. One song that's got to be on there.

Speaker 3: How about two? We're going to stir it up by Bob Marley. Sure. And then night nurse, like Gregory Isaacs,

Speaker 1: I need to look that up. I do not know. Night nurse. I got to check that out.

Speaker 1: That's a night nurse and a nurse like I love the fact that I'm nature's nurse would be, uh, you know, US nursing nature. That's clearly not what's happening. Nature is nursing us. So love it,

Speaker 3: it's a synergy. We help each other out as we care for our earth and our planet. We come more, we become more aware of what we're putting in. Our bodies will want to take care of Mother Nature and mother earth to make sure she can provide for us the quality of medicine and food that we are needing to put in our bodies to be the best we can be.

Speaker 1: Nurse Heather being nurse. Heather. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: You're so welcome. I love you seth and I look forward to seeing you again.

Speaker 1: Love you too. And indeed.

Speaker 2: This episode is also supported by Belvita Bova that takes the pain out of people's passions, maintaining a human or guitar or cannabis flowers. A painful time consuming mystery over to makes it all very simple so you have more time to enjoy your passion, both for the users to way humidity control, adding and slash or removing moisture to maintain ideal relative humidity or moisture content in the flower experience. Better color, aroma, flavor and efficacy. While eliminating money lost to evaporation. Top cannabis businesses are using Volvo to cure store and merchandise flour. And you should too, go to [inaudible] dot com for more information. All right, so we've got Jamie Loeb from Michigan special thanks to mark passerines arena for putting us together. Right Jamie? Let's right. So you're doing a lot in Michigan. You've already done a lot. You have the first dispensary

Speaker 1: or a open, the first dispensary in Michigan when you were doing a bunch. I want to kind of cover everything that worked for you. That works. All right, well let's, let's get right down to it. You know, first things first, you open the first dispensary in Michigan. How does that happen? When did you realize that that was even a possibility?

Speaker 4: Well, it was. I have to admit that there's a little bit of a naivety involved. We were looking for something to do and by we, I mean the Association of people I had been working with for several years in real estate and as many people around the country experience was a, uh, a downturn in that market. And it became difficult for a lot of us to continue to make a living in that field. And we were searching for something else. And the law passed and so when we evaluated it and read it, we saw all types of room for opportunity and that was before, of course, it got, you know, the, the courts and other people in opposition got ahold of it and, and tried to shape up some more restrictive, uh, interpretations. But we said, hey, this is, this is something now that should be explored. And it appears as though it's a win win scenario. We can help people out and we can, uh, establish a, uh, something new in an emerging industry and this is all great. And we just got going on it a given that a little bit of impetus from the, from the act passing.

Speaker 5: Yeah. Well the act passed to just give us a timeframe to make sure that we understand

Speaker 4: the act passed in 2008 in November. Um, it began in 2009. A little bit of a rough start program had to be implemented and a licensing program and things like that. And that happened during the course of 2009 by about 10 in the spring came around and we were in operation. And Ypsilanti, um, at least on a limited basis by the summer of 2009. So we got it right away.

Speaker 5: Yeah. Well you had that real estate experience so that, that helps.

Speaker 4: And we were in a city by the way that, that has a lot of support for this. So the, the, the path of least resistance, I believe we chose. Well, as far as the support we get from community here. Right. What city, again, we are in Ypsilanti, which is in Washington county and it's not too far from Ann Arbor.

Speaker 5: Yeah. You said that, uh, that town. And uh, I, you know, I, I believe that this is the first time I've, I've heard of your town.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Eastern Michigan University is here. Oh, okay. But, but certainly people are more familiar with Ann Arbor, which is just a couple miles away.

Speaker 5: That's it. All right. So, uh, you, you get going, you start, uh, you know, putting the thing together. Um, how long did it take until you kick the doors open?

Speaker 4: Well, we were, uh, we were operating while we're fixing the place up and letting the city know of our intentions and offering ideas for an ordinance in this type of thing. Very well received. Again, a lot of support here. And we officially opened though on January, first of 2010 for like a, a, an official grand opening. We had a TV crew that came by here and it was almost like a commercial said, now that law was passed where you're supposed to get your medicine and these guys are opening up. And it was great. And in the beginning it was, we were the only place and we had a lot of attention and a lot of help and support from people and I'm inspired others to open and we believed that we helped to, uh, you know, kind of spark, so to speak a little bit of the commerce side of this movement. And, and we've

Speaker 6: always felt and still do that. That's an important part of this entire process is to establish the fact that commerce is part of the whole, uh, uh, ability to maintain our position so that it's relied on by a lot of people, not only for jobs and, and a revenue generation and that kind of thing, but a consistent, stable central location where those people in need of the medicine and the information can, can have access to and we thought it was a great win win scenario and of course we've run into some issues around the state, but fortunately where we are, we've maintained a pretty good presence and stability.

Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, you know, further to your point, I like to say you have to run a successful business today so that you can help patients tomorrow, that type of thing. Right now. So in 2010, you know, legal cannabis, uh, in Michigan, uh, is brand new as you, as you mentioned, what were some of the initial kind of testimonials, some of the initial feedback from patients that you are providing medicine too.

Speaker 6: Okay. So when we first got started in Michigan, the, the, the bigger concept of medical marijuana known because of other states, obviously such as California and so forth, but the, the extent of the information and the possibilities were all new to a lot of us. So when we're talking about the various strains, the different products that are made from the different delivery systems, I mean for a lot of people, something more than sitting around smoking a joint, uh, was news. And uh, that was the first thing. Like I'm really happy I have a topical I can put on this area of pain and not necessarily have a psychoactive effect and still, you know, handle the issue and I'm really happy that there's a cbd heavy strains available. I'm really, I'm really happy I have several things to choose from. So the, so the right makeup of that strain fits with my individual system and I have different things to try to figure that out. And this was the initial scenario that we've stepped into. Right? And that was beautiful because people found real relief and they're in and the quality of lives were improved. And in some cases we save lives,

Speaker 7: uh, so, you know, this is anecdotal, but you know, I can't let that pass, uh, take us through what you're talking about. There was some initial

Speaker 6: patient stories you could say, this is anecdotal, my account of this type of stuff. But there was a recent study that proves that, that dispensary save lives. So when I say that, that is definitely a fact and not necessarily what we had here were in, in, and, uh, are you asking me for the, uh, an example of a testimonial? The more specific to what I was just like, okay, no problem. We had a woman here who came in, she was familiar with cannabis, she had used it a little bit for chronic pain, but had just recently been diagnosed with cancer and she had heard about the oils and the, uh, the, the heavy concentrations being used as kind of a, uh, an experimental chemotherapy, if you will. And she asked us about that and we said yes. There, this happens. Many people have seen their a situation improve, certainly whether or not it actually kills the cancer cells, which we believe is possible, but even those that don't have that type of response have had a much more pleasant passing, if you will.

Speaker 6: Like instead of being on all types of prescription drugs and things where they're not able to communicate with loved ones and, and, uh, that type of thing. People have found cannabis to be suitable for the pain and the discomfort, but also to, to remain aware and connect with those close to them as they are passing. And, and that's pretty profound and we wanted to offer that as a possibility, but we said there are also a lot of great stories out there of people reversing the issue and it's worth a try. We then began helping to get her large concentrations of the oil. And the first test that she had after starting to take the cannabis as treatment was that there was no obvious growth of the existing tumor. So they had been growing and the doctor saying there's nothing we can do. There's going to continue to grow. And then, you know, you're going to die and I'm the first test after starting to take the cannabis, the, the tumors stopped growing subsequent tests and they, and she got them about every six weeks, so show the tumor shrinking and she eventually got rid of the cancer that almost killed her. And, uh, that we had other stories such as that, but that, that was a particularly,

Speaker 7: um, uh, intense, very dramatic one for us here. And thank you for letting me put you on the spot as far as that's concerned. You know, when, uh, when folks hear something like that, you know, little red flags go up. So we want to make sure to cover the ground. You'd mentioned a study. I'm coming out that a dispensary to saving lives. What you can you name drop that? Uh, for us?

Speaker 6: Yeah. I'll tell you a little bit about it. First of all, some of the background on that. There were some studies that were related. Uh, I was involved in one here. It was actually through Wayne State and the sociology department with a guy named Dr Dave Peters. And essentially pointed to people, uh, oftentimes find enough benefit from cannabis so they don't have to use opiates as much. A University of Michigan recently came out with a study that said essentially the same thing. There was a larger, more broad study, uh, that took place, I want to say it was even last year or the year before in which it was determined that in states that allow medical marijuana, there are 25 less overdoses and deaths due to opiates. And so what this most recent study did was look at, and this is some people from, uh, an economist from, uh, the University of Georgia actually who looked at the trends and saw the stats on what was being prescribed by doctors and opiates by and far, far away were being prescribed at a much lesser rate when people have access to cannabis and other things that cannabis helps with and other conditions.

Speaker 6: And the relative pharmaceutical medications were also prescribed at a lesser rate. The opiates were the most profound, but even the other things were prescribed at a lesser rate, seizure medication, some other things. Um, and so he concluded and it's a very interesting study that the ability for people to use cannabis and not use the opiates ultimately saves their life because the threat of a overdose and, and abuses with the other substances are very real and the heavier exposure to them is more likely to cause the numbers just don't lie as, and as a chart that accompanies that study, I don't have it like right at my fingertips and I got to give you that, but I can certainly look it up and I do a, uh, a weekly sort of a Internet radio show and we had one of the researchers on a couple of weeks ago who explained it very well. And what, what is it, what's the name of the show? It's called planet green trees. The green trees.com. The archives around there and we broadcast every Thursday night eastern time from eight to 10. Good. Hopefully we can pump your listeners right there. Where do you get it? At Planet Green Trees Dot Com. Or you can call in three, four slash seven. Three, two, six, nine, six, two, six. And just listen or participate in the show when we are broadcasting live.

Speaker 7: Excellent. Alright. So that covers that. Let's get back to, you know, um, you guys opening up and those first couple of years, maybe two, 20, 10, 2012, um, what, what were patient counts like to begin with and, and you know, what was the progression, uh, over the first couple years?

Speaker 6: Patient, patient comes to get started with, um, you're talking about participating in utilizing the dispensary situation. Indeed, right? We're very, a noticeably high because it was difficult I think for people to grow the wrong, to make a connection with the proper caregiver who is adequately providing what that person needs to, to have these central locations where a lot of shortcuts can take place in terms of information and exposure to different products was just an obvious positive tool for these people. And, and they took advantage of it, at least in our area. I mean, around the state and these places weren't always available or allowed to open or shut down immediately. People had to scramble a little bit before to drive long distances to come to us, but we were busy all the time and then several other places opened and that thinned out a little bit. And then there were some court decisions that kind of really did rattle things for awhile and then we've had some series of those that kind of a rollercoaster and practically ever since. Yeah. Let's, let's

Speaker 5: get into that. What was the, uh, the kind of first one, um, you know, have note if you're a moving right along, you've got a good patient counts, the store's busy, you know, you've got some competitors that open up a, you slowed down a little bit, but businesses still good. Um, what, what, what was the first kind of a spanner in the works?

Speaker 6: Yeah. There's a couple of things that happened. One is a civil case in mount pleasant and a case called people versus McQueen in which the prosecutor there a, didn't have a big pair of military invasion into the business and homes, but brought up a zoning issue and tried the case on that level. Most successful, uh, that ruling did shutter many places and scare a lot of patients for awhile. We, we, we navigated through that and came to some conclusions and then continue to open. We shut down, I believe for one day just to kind of evaluate and see where we really are with things and decided that we would move on. Many places, did not. The other thing was a rates in 2010 in August and we're coming up on that anniversary and some of those cases are still in the courts from that time in places where they had been allowed by the local authorities to operate.

Speaker 6: They're similar to us, to our situation and ypsilanti similar to your place in Ypsilanti, which the local said yes, you can operate here. Uh, the, in fact, the mayor is in a picture on the Detroit free press looking over a, a, a display case of several types of cannabis with a big smile on his face and, uh, accepting of them. The county executive of somewhat of a controversial political figure here in Michigan named Elbert's Patterson had on his website. This issue should be decided by each local government, local township or city, and uh, the Sheriff Polk County Sheriff or sharp turns out to be one of our biggest enemies and he decided that they should not be open and he arranged the raid into their business. Andrew Holmes really rattled things and then there's a, another location in northern Oakland County. They hit around the same time and then they were involved in going out on her own county and getting another place in the county over.

Speaker 6: So there was a lot of activity all at once which really shook things up and it said, will even come in even if it's okay with your local decision makers. Even if you have home rule, we don't care. We're coming in, coming in just because that's what we. Yup. And it turns out that a sheriff for Charlotte went on to be one of our biggest enemies and caused other problems historically for us as well. And that same mayor who was smiling in the picture and the free press is now running against sheriff who's sharp for Sheriff and Oakland County sheriff. He is the mayor. Stepped away, but he does expect you to take him to task on some of these issues along the way.

Speaker 7: Yeah. And so you, you had mentioned, uh, along the way it was more than just the one thing. What else has, uh, has this sheriff kind of gotten in the way of, or what else has he done?

Speaker 6: Sure. The major thing was at the end of 2014 and the lame duck session, there were a couple of bills before our state legislature that would have allowed for and offered clarity from a statewide perspective for how dispensary's or the distribution system would work. And it was, you know, there there's some things in there that many of us didn't like, but that's the way the legislation works. You kind of negotiate things, but it was acceptable and it would have kind of paralleled what was already working. And last minute, the sheriff's Association led by Sheriff Bouchard, made an all out assault, a did phone calls, got ahold of lawmakers in their offices. Um, now again, I'm going to make a statement here and it can be checked out. A, we believe he threatened the sponsor of one of those bills and she pulled it as a person from his county who was about ready to go back and be a county commissioner and she made the statement I have to go back home and she subsequently impress mentioned in an interview about this incident now. It was some, some things that we knew about, but that wasn't public, but then he did mention it in an article one time. And so it is, it's known, but I mean, nothing ever really came of it other than the sheriff sheriff got what he wanted, which was to shut down and he's good bills. Yeah.

Speaker 7: And you know, one hopes that, uh, you know, everybody remains healthy, but you know, some of the, one of the best ways to kind of change someone's mind, like, uh, the sheriff in question is when a family member, you know, benefits from cannabis as medicine. So, um, you know, hopefully everybody remains healthy, but at least he has that opportunity to, uh, to see that at some point, right?

Speaker 8: Yes. And of course, we have had some good success in changing minds by testimonials or somebody having to have a close one to them, benefit from it, and it changes their mind. But even with that scenario, there's this overriding effort here. It's conspiratorial, there's no question about it. Um, there are people who understand that this emerging industry is, and they would rather have it emerged in a way in which very few people potentially benefit instead of it being kind of something that, uh, could be utilized by citizens at large and, and, uh, so it doesn't matter, uh, to some of these people, what the reality is, there are other forces at play and there are certain ways that some people with who have a lot of influence would like to see this play out. And we kind of, we're kind of working against that

Speaker 5: well, to, to the end of, um, you know, kind of figuring out a who can benefit from this. We haven't spoken with many folks from Michigan, so I appreciate you, uh, taking, uh, all of these questions. But as far as the qualifying conditions, you know, um, what is the list generally what's been added or removed along the way? Sure.

Speaker 8: Nothing's been removed. Fortunately, ptsd was added. Great. Um, and uh, that is the first psychological condition that's been added to our list here in Michigan. Uh, and uh, autism was not added and that was a very controversial process and that was, people are still bitter about that. And understandably so because even after getting a recommendation from a panel of experts, the head of the Department who has final decision, head of the layer of Department of Licensing Department who has final decision, not a doctor, not an authority on the issue, but has the final decision just said no, and this is all part of this conspiracy that I, that I referred to and you know, I sound like I'm a, like I'm a nut ball or whatever, but the facts are there and it's, it's more than just a theory. I mean, there's a, there's a concerted effort at every turn to stop implementation and that's, this was one of them.

Speaker 8: Uh, and that still leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouth, but the other qualifying conditions are led by chronic pain, chronic nausea, muscle spasms, those things can relate to several other conditions and be abroad kind of a category for many things. And that is what most people sign up under. There are other specific things such as cancer and HIV. There's a, there's a condition called Nail Patella, which has really chronic pain, but a federal patient has that condition and receives cannabis from the government every month. And so it's on the list for that reason because it's already accepted

Speaker 5: one of the few, right? Yes. So, you know, we've got the qualifying conditions. I want to go back to kind of verbiage that you're choosing and I wonder why you're choosing it. You're saying, um, you know, a conspiracy or conspiratorial, it sounds, you know, from an outsider, it sounds like it's pretty straightforward. You know, there are folks that don't want it. Um, why, why do you put it under the canopy, if you will, of a conspiracy?

Speaker 8: Well, what I'm saying is that it is a conspiracy. It's just not a conspiracy theory, and when I claimed

Speaker 6: that his conspiracy, this is really happening, I don't want, you know, I mean, I'm not saying that I think this is happening or you know, this might be happening, I'm just seeing it develop and I'm making the distinction between feeling a little paranoid and actually knowing that these people are trying to stop our progress.

Speaker 7: Right. Yeah. So that gets to kind of what, what, uh, the cannabis economy in Michigan grew out of because um, although California has its own issues, um, there has been an accepted, at least in most cases, um, cannabis culture, cannabis economy that's been going for generations. Uh, Oregon isn't having trouble because there was an established cannabis economy to begin with. Colorado who almost is on the same timeframe is you and in a very different way, um, had that established cannabis economy. Um, what did you have in place, if anything, uh, prior to the law being passed in Michigan?

Speaker 6: Well, of course, I think it has almost every state could claim there is a, there still is and was a very vibrant, uh, not legally recognized market. Um, and a lot of the very experienced people from that timeframe fortunately came into the fold while many were scared to or had no motivation to, uh, fortunately there were people who were very familiar with a growing and some other important aspects of cannabis, uh, that a lot of us weren't aware of. Even if we used before the law passed again, we were pretty limited into brownies and smoking joints, you know, and not really understanding all these different applications and possibilities and stuff. So because of that, uh, you know, underlying illegal market and he experiences some people got from that, uh, we were able to get going, I think in some resemblance of, of sense and people came from other states do that to try to get involved in, uh, an emerging new law.

Speaker 6: And we have a very unique one here, uh, in which they decide to leave out the centuries at the time when they passed it because the, according to MPP marijuana policy project was really behind it. At the time. Dispatchers were getting a really negative, a kind of an image coming out of California and the stories from La. And it was more than more dispensary's than there are starbucks and people are getting shot and all this other crap. So this decided to leave it out. In hindsight, it probably would have passed because it passed so overwhelmingly here, but they decided to leave it out to give it a better chance to pass at that time. And so we, you know, that's something that we had to kind of, uh, uh, interpret for ourselves and say, well, he didn't say we couldn't have him. There's nothing that says we can all gather in a central location and carry out the spirit and intent know of this law

Speaker 7: to that end, as far as caregiving was no caregiver

Speaker 5: program in place before this law passed. You guys were starting from zero, from an illegal, you know, black and white, illegal market

Speaker 6: in other states. And we did learn a lot from, from other states. People from Colorado, California came here and uh, you know, help them a lot of regard. I think people, of course in Michigan at times don't like the idea of an outside influence coming in. But, uh, at third coast for example, we were, which is your dispensary, we were introduced to some people from Colorado that mission ties and they were instrumental in our quick evolution because we weren't aware of proper packaging and labeling and higher standards even though they weren't the law. We wanted to have high standards solving pose so that we would stand out as a reputable organization. I believe we achieved that and we also set an example and set the pace for other parents to open a video, that type of thing.

Speaker 5: You mentioned a roadblocks along the way, I guess maybe the past few years, 2013 through, uh, you know, a 20, 16 after the votes for adult use in Colorado and Washington and maybe even after adult use kinda started in, in uh, in Colorado. What, uh, how did it evolve in, in Michigan, you know, during that timeframe?

Speaker 9: Well,

Speaker 8: you know, personal adult, you still isn't here yet. No, of course. I'm just saying as far as the program,

Speaker 5: Raymond pitfalls and you know, how it was going. And

Speaker 8: here's the major thing. I think if I understand the question correctly, the focus in terms of our opposition, I believe was two

Speaker 9: create

Speaker 8: circumstances in which it's practically impossible to ever utilize the affirmative defense part of our act. Now to put that into perspective, the affirmative defense part of our act simply the fence. I mean, you get arrested first before you use it, but it's all that California was built on. California, didn't ever had a statewide registry or licensing program is Michigan does. And, and, and uh, the other thing unique about Michigan, I started saying this before when

Speaker 6: I said they didn't include the centuries in there was that they didn't include large home growth and uh, the character can have up to 72 plants. Seventy two. Yep. They grow 12 for themselves and they have to five patients in which they can grow up to 12, four. So that equals 72 in that regard. Excellent. All of the activity in California and everything that's grown out of it is based on what are affirmative defenses in our law here in Michigan. And one of the biggest things that was attacked and focused on by those in opposition was to stop the ability for us to truly the affirmative defense. And they were very successful in that. So that was what we've been dealing with, you know, kind of since then is the inability to properly defend ourselves and to bring these arguments. Now there have been some cases that have managed the supreme court.

Speaker 6: The supreme court has been relatively reasonable on the legal aspects of this issue and has straightened some things out. I mean obviously not to the point where we have clarity and everything is okay, but they've stopped some of these strategies from time to time when they, when they get the case in front of them. And so we've, we've had that, but we really need something new because this is now seven years in. We were the 12 states. So as I'm saying, there was some preparation to kind of deal with this issue and not allow it to get implemented as well as it did in other places. And so now there are moves for other legislation, you know, in the, uh, in the state legislature and there is a possible ballot initiative that would be on the ballot this year if we are successful in winning illegal challenge and that would help to clarify the, these things that are remaining issues for us now.

Speaker 7: Okay. And so that ballot initiative, uh, Ken come through without signatures or is the legal challenge based on signatures?

Speaker 6: The legal challenges based on being unconstitutionally denied ballot access. Excellent. So we have enough signatures, but they are saying that they came in a timeframe that, that makes them invalid. It's kind of a, you know, lengthy and difficult to explain, but there is a policy that is leftover from 1986 that those people who really don't want to see us progress or trying to kind of hang their hat on as the basis for why we shouldn't be allowed to be on the ballot. And so we have really good arguments against that. One is an electronic database and the age of the Internet was formed in the nineties. It supplanted that policy. It was created expressly so that a centralized electronic database that's easily acceptable would take the place of having to manually contact over 1500 clerks around the state to get the same information. And so what they are literally telling us that because it's old policy was never changed.

Speaker 6: Um, you still have to abide by it and you have to deal with all these 1500 clerks. Meanwhile they're telling the clerks that they have no legal obligation to help us, meaning that it's impossible to fulfill this process, which means that we are restricted into a smaller time frame than what the constitution allows us to collect signatures. Therefore, we are unconstitutionally denied bail and access. So I mean, if that was understood and then good, but if not, it comes down to, you know, using technicalities and try to stop us from moving forward is we've been experiencing almost ever since the law passed.

Speaker 7: No, totally and totally understood. As far as, uh, the, the ballot initiative, let's say it does happen. What, what explicitly does it state? What are we going for? I'm actually,

Speaker 6: yeah, this is great. First of all, if it passes, it would be the most broad and liberal policy or law on this issue in the world. And it's a comprehensive approach. It, uh, it covers commerce for adult use 21 and over can buy from a marijuana store at that time, uh, they would pay sales tax and up to a 10 percent excise tax. The excise tax is represented and directed toward roads, education, and back to the community that allows the business. Excellent. There is another medical aspect. We leave the existing laws alone completely. And we add though, if you are a patient, there are no taxes for you, no sales tax, no excise tax. And if you like to, you can go to a doctor, get a recommendation letter, and it can be for anything that the doctor believes you could benefit from cannabis from. So not just the restrictive lists that we talked about before. Anything.

Speaker 7: So it's medical and adult use are within the same ballot measure. Am I understanding that right?

Speaker 6: They are. And so it was industrial hemp. So this is a comprehensive approach that is inclusive to all of the elements of cannabis. So it is a single subject, it's all cannabis. Sure. They're all of the many different things that happened within it and that's what we decided to do that right off the bat to cover all that ground and not have to do subsequent legislation.

Speaker 7: Got It. And understanding it's not quite on the ballot yet. And you're, you know, uh, you know, finalizing that

Speaker 6: well, we're hoping to that the three things that could happen and get on the ballot. Twenty 16, we get on the bail at 2018 or we lose if we lose, we're still gonna keep going because we do another one, you know, that's all 26 now. We have a good group and it's been established, we've got contributors and we have a reputation with other groups that do have kind of resources necessary to get this done better. We, we raised over a million dollars, but we did it during the campaign. If you have the million to get started with, it's smooth sailing. If you've got to get it during the course of the campaign, you're kind of in the position that we're in now where we're still battling.

Speaker 7: Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, as far as a still battling, when you say we, is this. I'm a mil legalized Michigan legalize.

Speaker 6: It is. Yeah. It's a ballot group that we formed and there's a, and there's a board of 15 people, but it came of larger cannabis community here in Michigan. We had larger meetings, people, uh, with all of their ideas and their positions on certain things and a vote to who are going to be the representative board members and that's how we ended up with who we are and, and those people who represent different positions. We have people who are very concerned about pediatric patients who are concerned about medical in general, such as myself, people who want full legalization. There's three members from the board of Michigan, normal on our board and they would like to see a tax and regulation game for legalization for adults 21 and over for personal use. And so they have an interest in that. Uh, many of us have an interest in all of it.

Speaker 6: There's the industrials and industrial half expert on her panel. I mean, that's, that's why we have such a comprehensive approach here and it is a beautiful piece. I mean it's at ww dot [inaudible] dot com. The language there plus all of the motions that have been filed by Mr legalized and the state concerning this legal case. They're all there too. We're in currently in the court of claims and the judge should be making some kind of a ruling, whether it's a dismissal or a hearing date or an approval of our challenge. And I mean very soon in the next few days, Friday or Monday actually, we should be hearing something.

Speaker 5: All right. And so we are, uh, in a very late July when we record this. So, uh, hopefully we'll have some, some news on that. Um, as far as polling, you mentioned that you have some money. Not a ton. How have you done any polling? Is there any polling? What does the poem

Speaker 6: say? If so? Well, there was a question, um, that emulated kind of our approach last year. It was funded by Michigan normal, it was done through a very reputable polling company and we had about 54 percent support and that's something that trans higher all the time. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So it was last year that you did that poll? Uh, at least a few months ago. It might've been right inside this year, but I think it was sometime late last year. Got It. Okay. All right. Fifty four percent. And my legal very conservative to, of people want to point out landlines reuse older people love these things that might not be reflective of what the mainstream voting population and the younger people, if they come out to vote because it's a presidential election and that type of thing might do. So we think it's on the conservative side or at least we'd like to hope so that it is.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that it sounds like it. Uh, it probably is 54 percent, could be even better, you know, um, with those polling numbers, with the, you know, the court battles a, is there a date certain that we must have an answer, uh, before, you know, hey, if it doesn't happen by x date, it's over type of thing. Yeah, I'm laughing because there are, depending on who you talk to would be the date that you get election law

Speaker 6: convoluted and not really known that, that you really have this conversation. So for example, in the state's response to us, to our complaint, they basically didn't address most of our complaint. Like they didn't even bother discussing whether or not we're right or wrong, they just said, uh, you know, there's just not enough time to do this anyway, if we go past July 29th and uh, you know, you can't really make it on this band with anyway. So, you know, and so they made up that date based on what we really don't know. Yeah. And then the most common and in, uh, I think date that I believe is true is 60 days before the elections, that's enough time to change a absentee ballots. That's enough time to get people overseas taken care of. And that's enough time to give the legislature 40 days to decide whether or not they want to approve it without making it go to bell. Of course they're not going to, but they have that option.

Speaker 5: Doesn't that mean August eighth? Isn't that just a couple of weeks anyway?

Speaker 6: No, it'd be about September seventh or in that zone.

Speaker 5: Okay, great. All right, well we know what you'll be doing Labor Day, right?

Speaker 6: Oh yeah. Well I'm actually hoping that we have a resolution even before then, but we may not. And, and to just offer up a little bit more about this process, we started off in the court of claims. The next place will be the court of appeals where we've had horrible time with our law. These guys, you know, you've heard about legislating from the bench. These guys take it to a new level. They make stuff up out of thin air and just write it down and say, here you go, here's the law and it's just absurd, but the supreme court has been halfway decent if time gets really crunched just directly to the supreme court because for elections issues they'll have a process in which they'll hear them right away so that it does not affect the timeframe and if we have to skip what we're doing now and just go there and we will, but the way that we're doing it now, we're able to more methodically get every possible thing I record that we need to circumvent somebody coming up with something weird that could stop us or I mean as lawyers would say that we have more opportunity to, to make sure that we're on top of whatever conceivable issue could be an issue for us.

Speaker 6: And that seems to make sense. And I'm not a lawyer so I argue with that. But you know, you have that opportunity to hit the supreme court. We a two and I think those justices are relatively fair. I might not agree with every single thing, but that's okay. I've been here a relatively fair and they would do well by us in my opinion.

Speaker 5: All right, so let's, uh, you know, you said you're a real estate guy, more than a few folks have a, you know, did get into cannabis based on the downturn happening. Right. But, you know, as, um, you know, uh, the Obama administration came in, there was a understanding, uh, that, that, that administration would look at legal cannabis differently than the, uh, than the other administration. Um, but let's get into, you know, how you got into the whole real estate thing to begin with, or you're from Michigan. Yeah,

Speaker 6: I am from Michigan my whole life, but did live, uh, in mass or a Florida and Massachusetts for a short time because I went to a boarding school for high school and I did not come home a couple summers. So I consider that, you know, living there for awhile and, and, uh, and then, and I, I stayed in Texas for a little bit where my sisters had moved years before. Uh, but those, that was just a short trip. So, other than that, I've been in Michigan my whole life.

Speaker 5: Where were you? Uh, where were you born? What city? I was born in Royal Oak, Michigan. Where does that, that is Metro Detroit. And so, uh, your parents, uh, are the kind of parents that send a kid to boarding school, is that about the parent or is that the, is that about the kid?

Speaker 6: Well, it depends on how deeply, uh, you know, therapeutic. We want to get above this psychologically it was. But uh, I was not behaving that well, I don't think necessarily had the world's best guidance and I think they come together and they decide to ship me off someplace where it's somebody else's problem.

Speaker 5: What? Uh, I went to public school, um, I did not go to boarding school. I have no concept of what that is like other than what I've seen in movies like the dead Poets Society. Uh, what, what kind of education but, but what kind of, you know, true learning as a person, a. Did you take from the experience of being at boarding school? It was a good experience for me.

Speaker 6: Can't say that for everybody I was there with, but I needed more structure in my life and it was all about that and they were smaller classes, more individual attention. So academically I took right off. Um, I was basically not even paying attention to school when I left. And I ended up graduating. I think it was with a three, three point nine or something decent, you know, point seven, maybe it was close to a four point. Oh. And uh, and I made a lot of strong connections. People who are still very good friends with my today. Uh, I was taken out of a situation where I didn't really know how to handle it or behave and into one that, that, that showed me how to do that. And so for me it was good for other people I saw at this place. I wondered why the hell they were even there. And you know, everybody has their own idea when there's a problem I guess. And uh, one guy was there because he sat around and watch tv too much and, and he was not even particularly depressed and, you know, so I had had these questions like, uh, if that's the only thing that was going on in my life at the time, I never would have been shipped here, but everybody has their own, their own journey and their own process. And uh, and I think it worked out well for me.

Speaker 5: That's it. So you get out of boarding school, where'd you go to a college?

Speaker 6: Uh, I think I've gone to like fight or at school they did finally graduate from a private business school, um, called clearly. But the first place I went to school it was called Northwest Michigan College and I was already accepted to u of m, but I went there because some other my friends were going and first couple of years I understood it didn't really matter where you were. Uh, so I decided to go to this college to hang out with some friends, but I started partying again. So basically, uh, I went down and went to u of M Dearborn for a couple of years, got some more credits. That's when I split the Texas for awhile, came back and eventually just picked away part time at it and finished up. I went to, I went to eastern Michigan, Monroe Community College, Oakland Community College for different classes, but added them all up and eventually graduated.

Speaker 5: Okay. So you get out into the real world, which it sounds like for a guy like you was the right place, school wasn't the right place, it was, you know, let me get to work here.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I can do well with it, but. But you're right, it's not I out of a passion for academia.

Speaker 5: There you go. So did you go jump right into real estate? Or.

Speaker 6: I got into a landscaping, I think first and uh, worked for a company but then learned enough and got enough certifications and experience and things to start my own company for awhile. So that's what I did for a lot of my twenties and then I got into real estate more early thirties.

Speaker 5: Okay. And, uh, what, what kind of stuff were you doing in real estate? You know, you're running your own company landscape. It's kind of a arms length from a real estate anyway. And uh, you know,

Speaker 6: we have a lot of good connections to the landscaping stuff that I utilize in real estate later on. I was an appraiser mainly and I also was an investor because I had rental homes, things like that. But mainly, uh, I was an appraiser is interesting. I don't mean to circumvent your next question. The people that I worked with the most for the 11 years that I had my own business or the people I'm in business with right now doing this. Here you go. And we're in the same building that I drove to for 11 years and uh, we just transformed it over to be the existing use and uh, that has worked out well.

Speaker 5: It's amazing. So, you know, for, uh, maybe, you know, a younger person that's listening to this and uh, is, is not having luck in, in school. Um, when was it afterschool that you kind of realized exactly how your mind worked and how that made you work? In other words, when did you figure it all out?

Speaker 6: Okay. Yeah, I realized that the school part of it is only as good as. I don't even know how to say. It's like there's only a few things in which it really could apply to my life and make and make it better to me if I wanted to specialize in something really specific, like maybe engineering or something. You really need that academic background. I mean you have to know that and you have to let somebody know who's gonna hire you, that you have this quality background behind you and you're worth being hired and that type of thing. But for many other subjects, I mean it's simply just having a degree and I used it once I, I taught at a proprietary school for a year and you had to have a degree to get that job. That's the only time I can think of that in the fact that I had picked away at it so much.

Speaker 6: I just wanted to finish it off therapeutically, but I did realize that you can go out and just start doing stuff in the real world and that, that educational background, of course, I'm not going to turn it down or, or, or say that it's bad or wrong, but it never came into play. I had all the tools and all the resources I needed just to get moving. And then when I realized that I didn't have to go through some other exercise first, that's when, that's what I thought that I should, that I should start pouring myself into actually being productive. And uh, and I think that that mindset made me more open to opportunities like this.

Speaker 5: Yeah, no, absolutely. All right, good. So, so we've got background, uh, you know, we've, we led up to today you're a busy guy because it's never perfect. Um, and I think that we've got a good sense of what you'll be doing for the next few months and I wonder if you, if you, if you don't mind, we'd love to check back in with you maybe a little bit later in the summer or early fall. And see how it's all going.

Speaker 6: I think that'd be great. We should know a lot more about mia legalize and in the absence of emi legalized, what are the opposers we're going to do? Or they can now go into field. I know that they have a little pressure on them knowing that it's hanging around out there. The legislature has decided to kind of take some bills back up again to try to define this issue and the lobbyists tell us that our efforts that put a lot of pressure on them and uh, so, but if we are absolutely denied as the opposition going to feel comfortable just coming in and stepping all over us and other counties that we did not discuss, even in places that were licensed by the locals there they are getting compromised sometimes. Are they going to feel that comfortable coming into a county where there hasn't been any issues for several years and a prosecutor isn't really that motivated to want to make an issue out of it. Especially if there no violence or victims or you know, things that are immediately of public health and concern. And, uh, it'll be interesting to see all that stuff unfolds.

Speaker 5: Absolutely. All right. So, uh, we have one more thing to unfold and that is the three final questions. I'll tell you what they are and then I'll ask you them in order. Uh, they are. What has most surprised you in cannabis? What has most surprised you in life and on the soundtrack of your life? Jamie? Name one track, one song that's got to be on there. So first things first, what has most surprised you in cannabis?

Speaker 6: Uh, it's diversity. I mean, I was never against it. I used cannabis before the law passed, but to learn about it's miraculous capabilities and its history and to even today learn more about it that I used to know that it is so impressive. Uh, I've been blown away with what this plant can actually do and it becomes more obvious to me why others pharmacology cotton, oil, plastics, all of ganged up against it. Because you could think about every possible thing that this one plant can do for humanity. It's almost mind blowing.

Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a, it's going to be terrible. How much good. It's gonna do for society, right?

Speaker 6: Terrible in that. A lot of established industry is definitely a compromise though. Right? And you can understand their motivations in that one on that day.

Speaker 5: Yeah. No, but, uh, also, you know, maybe lean in, um, you know what I'm saying? Right. I mean, as far as you and me are concerned, we got to figure this out as we go. You know, if something's not working, you got to figure out the next thing. And to that end, what has most surprised you in life?

Speaker 10: Man,

Speaker 6: that's a little bit on the spot, kind of kind of an answer. It's the, the, I, you know, I guess since I've been involved in and what surprised me in life, I don't know this was the exact answer, but I'll give you what comes to mind and what's the closest sure is. I'm really surprised at the willingness of some people to be so evil and what I've been experiencing. Politics and lobbying and trying to change these laws and you have this idea at first that you're going to go up there with this great argument and you can overcome all their objections and you're, you're armed with all this data and you're just going to go up there and lay it on them and they're going to now realize that they were wrong and all this kind of stuff. And the truth logic facts don't play into decision making. And, and that Kinda did surprise me knowing that people are willing to affect other people's lives over just absolute lies and bullshit is surprising to me because I don't live that way.

Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I'm with you. Uh, but what, uh, what I've noticed more and more as there are so many disparate access points for information, the reality perception being reality is kind of a really dangerous thing as we go here. If we're not only not talking to each other, but also paying attention to different, uh, access points for information, we literally can live amongst each other without ever actually communicating. So I'm with you there. It's a, it's a slippery slope and it's a potentially very dangerous.

Speaker 6: Agree. No, I agree.

Speaker 5: Alright, so let's lighten things up then. Jamie, on the soundtrack of your life. One track one song that's got to be on there,

Speaker 6: man. Okay. Again, putting me on the spot here. A sound like I don't have any of my mind. I just have, I just, I just enjoy so many and getting different moods and would think of different songs at different times, but the WHO, uh, has been my favorite band ever since I'd been a little kid and uh, many songs just within that band I could picture, but a really in the soundtrack of Tommy intermittently see me, hear me, feel me, touch me, touch me. Even if as long as you're not uncle Ernie, that's right. Well done. Uh, you know, I have a connection to that and I think that would have, that would definitely be a predominant, a lot of classic rock bands I could point to. But the WHO's the, who's the thing for me and there's a lot of songs that Pete Townsend was written that I can kinda relate to and that would.

Speaker 5: Yeah, sure. And absolutely. If you're not familiar with the song, it starts out kind of a real slow and real honest and then it just builds and builds and builds and it's a great one. Yeah, I love it. It's part of a rock opera, so it's, you know, it's just. Yeah, it is wonderful. It's a masterpiece and that's it. So Jamie, can you hear me? All right, really appreciate your, uh, your time. Really appreciate you sharing and I'm very much looking forward to checking back in with you as we go here on Michigan. Okay. I appreciate that people know what's going on. Thank you very much. And there you have Jamie lol

Speaker 2: and of course nurse Heather. Very much appreciate anytime that we have with with nurse Heather and on this occasion of her launch, we're happy to spread the word nature nurse health.com. Very much appreciate Jamie's time. Very much. Appreciate your time. Very much. Appreciate your time. Thanks for listening.

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