Date: August 21st, 2009 11:48 PMAuthor: repapaSubject: but I bet the Y was at least tied for number 1 in selectivity,

which is the ranking of the real experts - i.e. the elite HS graduates who have their pick of the litter.

Actually, I didnt see the hard copy, so can you post the top 20 sorted by selectivity, including admit rates and sat ranges?

I am assuming Yale is 1 or 2 because thats whats its been for the last several years, while Princeton has generally lagged Y and H. Given the widening gap in admissions rates between H and Y on the one hand (approx 7.5% for class of 13), and P on the other (10.5%), P's slightly lower SAT scores and dramatically lower yield, it is clear that students understand the true rank order of the schools, notwithstanding the shameless P trolling by USNWR.

Why do the nation's college administrators rank Yale below HPSM? I hope you're not saying that high school students have more knowledge of higher education than those people actually running the colleges. There's a slight education and experience gap between the two --- do ya think?

"Shameless P trolling by USNWR" --- Isn't the owner of USNWR a Harvard grad? If anything, USNWR's ranking of Yale at #3 is generous. No other publication, to my knowledge, puts Yale higher than the 3 spot (unlike P & H which can each can easily point to other publications placing them at one or two).

Also, how do you explain Yale's own students placing Yale at a lower academic grade than P,S&M? Shouldn't they know more than everyone?

Finally, two points: 1)Princeton's SAT scores are well ahead of Yale's when you remove student athletes from the equation (Princeton has a smaller class size but yet carries the same number of athletes and programs as Yale); 2) how can you discuss yield when Yale still clings to yield boosting measures like Early Decision (something H & P have had the intestinal fortitude to give up).

Princetons regular decision yield before it abandoned early decision two years ago was 53% vs Yales 59%. Read the hundreds of self loathing comments in Princetons Above the Fold article in April bemoaning that Yale's admit rate put it in a separate cagetory from P (7.5 vs 10.5), even though P has a smaller class. Y's SAT scores on a 2400 scale are higher at both the 25% (where the athletes tend to hover) and at the 75% (where athletes are seldom found). Moreover Y publishes its median (consistently 1490-1500) whereas P doesnt, because its median is closer to its 25% than its 75% (it was reported once three years ago to be 1460 by Rapeleye). Princeton loses 65% of cross admits to Yale. And of course the top scoring high school seniors are in a better position to evaluate the quality of schools than middle aged Deans who are self interested. Year after year Y comes out better than P in that test

Your defense of Yale has gone from a US News conspiracy to now the following:

High schoolers are smarter than college Deans.

High schoolers are in a better position to evaluate higher ed than college Deans.

Are you on drugs??

How do you explain that Yale's students rank Princeton higher than Yale academically? Are they less knowledgeable than high schoolers as well?

How do you explain that Yale's college guide book gives the edge to Princeton for undergraduate study?

How do you explain that college students generally rank Princeton higher than Yale? Are they all less knowledgeable than high schoolers?

Are you aware of ONE national publication in this country (in the past 5 years) that ranks Yale ahead of Princeton academically? I can quote MANY national experts who state clearly Princeton is superior. I can think of at least ten.

PS. USNews (2010) puts the schools at the same SAT levels. When you take out the student athletes, Princeton's SAT scores are much higher than those of Yale for reasons stated above (student athlete scores are more easily diluted in Yale's larger student body).

If you are still confused by all this (and I sense you are), I suggest you read "Untangling the Ivy League" (2008 edition). It explains clearly why Princeton is one notch ahead of Yale academically. The book was designed for people with your level of confusion so it should be an easy read.

PS(2) Last time I checked, in the annual Dream School rankings, Princeton polled well ahead of Yale with both high schoolers and adults.

"When you take out the student athletes, Princeton's SAT scores are much higher than those of Yale for reasons stated above (student athlete scores are more easily diluted in Yale's larger student body)."

You cannot have your cake and it too. Athletes are part of the student body, so they count. If you want to make selective comparisons, why not just take out URMs, legacies, piano players, and kids of billionaires while you are at it?

While we are on this issue, the fact remains, Yale's overall SAT and admission stats are superior to Princeton's, and there is no issue there. You have zero proof to show the average non-athlete at P has a higher SAT than at Y. Do you know what the average athlete & non-athlete at both schools scores? Let's see some real evidence....but we know for the entire class, Y>>P, clearly. Success in grad school admissions and scholarship competitions backs this assertion up.

E.g., Yale is better in history and english, while P is better in math. However, at the undergrad level, these departmanetal rankings don't mean very much, and as you said, Yale UG is harder to get into than Princeton UG.

There are also some sciences where Yale is stronger (e.g. biological), and some where they are the same (e.g. chem). Ditto for social sciences. It is in no way clear cut. Both universities have a bevy of top departments in various different areas.

eh it is pretty clear cut. im too lazy to pull out the usnews but look at the major departments (econ, physics, math, etc.) and pton blows yale away.

edit: ok yea its not as clear cut. my sentiment comes more from a bias of departments i esteem/think matter more. i think what is notable though is that yale has some VERY weak departments (engineering, sociology, comp science, etc), whereas pton is strong across the board.

Princeton still hasn't produced a president in the last couple years. And Princeton has very few professional grad school, which makes it difficult to really enjoy it. For undergraduate, it is superb, but in pop culture it has very little weight in news because it doesnt have a med school. This is rediculous now that I think about it.

First, no lesser authority than the times of london consistently ranks Y well ahead of P (number 2 globally vs number 12). If you check the Y and P websites you will see that for the class of 12, Yales scores are 15 points higher on a 2400 scale (and are higher on both the low and high end).

Of course the elite students who gain admission to both schools (and their parents)are better judges than middle aged deans and admissions officers as to which school is better for them, and approximately 2 out of 3 pick Y, perhaps more, judging from the widening gap in admit rates, which prompted hundreds of self-loathing comments from P students in their student publication. Who is a better judge of what car is best suited for a prospective purchaser - the prospective consumer, or the marketing managers of competitive companies. The answer is obvious.

Finally, you cite no reference at all - because you can not- that Y students believe P is a better place. That is flat out wrong

Date: August 28th, 2009 1:37 PMAuthor: Nathan HaleSubject: Further to the point.

It is well known that Princeton loses most cross admits to Yale, Harvard, MIT, and Stanford. This makes sense since Y & H are traditionally more prestigious while MIT and S are stronger in the sciences. Princeton will win the cross admit battles easily with the lower ivies, but the opposite it true against YHSM.

My view on Princeton is that its student body is great. But the fresh prince of belair really took a toll on the school. Unless you know people who go there, you really don't know how amazing the school really is. Its transfer policy really makes it difficult for people to want to really fall in love with it after high school is over. It needs to be in the news more. And it needs to kick Harvards and Yales Ass in more things then Mathematics Schizophrenia.