Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"

24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)

Leafs81

Posted - 07/31/2013 : 08:21:02 If it wouldn't be for Ward, Carolina wasn't winning the Stanley Cup in 2006. He won playoff MVP.

Niemi with Chicago was pretty much like Osgood with Detroit. Just had to be good, didn't have to steal games.

I agree TODAY Niemi is better then Ward. But at the time of winning the cup, Ward (2006) was better then Niemi (2010).

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 07/31/2013 : 08:12:34

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

This might be a situation of seeing more of a goalie. I generally see both games in the east and west so I likely see more of Niemi than people in the TO area. I don't just look at stats. But looking at two players and seeing stats that are similar, one should be looking at the respective teams. I think Ottawa has a better team defence than San Jose does.

Switching gears to the Howard conversation, what shocks me more than how many people rank Howard low is how many people rank Ward so high. He is outside of the top 10 and has done nothing to tell me he deserves anything to be in the top 10.

To Slozo's comment of Niemi being the poorest Cup winning goalie in our generation. I would say Niemi is better than Ward ever has been.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

The fate of Carolina rests on Staal and Ward. When both are hot, they are hard to beat. If Ward is at his best, he deserves to be on the top 5-10. Carolina is nowhere near as strong as the teams Neimi has played for, or Howard in Detroit, so its not a fair comparison. I know last year when Ward went down Carolina couldn't win when it mattered to make the playoffs and fell out of contention. Ward makes them a bubble team in the playoff picture and without him, Carolina is a much lower ranking team.

With regards to Ottawa being a defensive team, Slozo is correct with regards to the style of play they play being similar to Toronto, but both forwards and defenseman in Ottawa are tighter defensively than Toronto, so that gives the edge to the goals per game against for Ottawa. I also believe last years stats for goals against was a product of a lack of Offense 1st players due to injury and the team left not on the IR bought into defensively responsible play first. Anderson, Bishop and Lehner's stats benefited greatly due to the team adjusting defensively when Spezza, Karlsson and Michalek went down for long stretches. If Anderson/Lehner come close to those stats this year, when the offense opens up more with a more stacked roster, I would consider those stats more because they represent more than a shortened season. For me Anderson is currently just outside the top 10.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Beans15

Posted - 07/31/2013 : 07:23:22 This might be a situation of seeing more of a goalie. I generally see both games in the east and west so I likely see more of Niemi than people in the TO area. I don't just look at stats. But looking at two players and seeing stats that are similar, one should be looking at the respective teams. I think Ottawa has a better team defence than San Jose does.

Switching gears to the Howard conversation, what shocks me more than how many people rank Howard low is how many people rank Ward so high. He is outside of the top 10 and has done nothing to tell me he deserves anything to be in the top 10.

To Slozo's comment of Niemi being the poorest Cup winning goalie in our generation. I would say Niemi is better than Ward ever has been.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

slozo

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 21:53:40

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Slozo, I like your list. Just one quick question: Why Anderson in your top 7 and not Neimi?? I see Anderson with a better save % and his GAA was better last season. But one would also argue that the Senators had one of the better defenses in the NHL??

Just curious. I might put more meat behind the Cup win and the less defensive team that Neimi plays on. He is a borderline inside the top 5 guy in my books.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Yo answer your question Beans - because then, it would have been my top 8!

I put very little on a "cup win" BY ITSELF. If the goalie won games for his team to get there, or in the finals, etc . . . that's different.

Niemi was probably the weakest goalie to be the cup winning goalie in our lifetime. And that's not just my opinion or Glenn Healey's, a lot of other experts and ex-pros agree with this contention.

One cannot just look at stats.

I see a lot of Ottawa games with the Leafs in the same division, and Anderson absolutely steals games for that team every year. Defensive team?! Hah . . . just because they don't score a lot (last year due to injuries) and have a low goals against (due to great goaltending!!) doesn't automatically make them defensive. Watch them and you'll know - they actually play a similar responsible forecheck/counter-attack style as Toronto does, only with a different make-up. It's exciting hockey, it's not the Bruins or Rangers.

But if you DO look at stats . . . didn't he blow away the competition in save percentage this past shortened season?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

nuxfan

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 21:38:12

quote:Originally posted by Leafs81

I can't talk for the others, but here's why I rate Howard in the middle of the pack.

He plays for a team that plays a puck possession type game. That reduces the time in his own zone. When the team is struggling, the team is strugling. I don't really see Howard as a goalie that carries his team through rough time. He doesn't steal games for them

I generally agree with Pasty on this - I think most people were surprised that DET went into the second round this year, and took eventual champions CHI to 7 games in the process. IMO, as a team they didn't really deserve all the success that they had, and I saw Howard carrying his team on more than one occasion. Howard does belong in the top-10.

If you look at the top ranked goalies, most of them play for defensively strong teams, and for the most part benefit from a strong team defense in front of them. It would be hard to argue that any of them steals more or less games for their respective teams.

Leafs81

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 17:26:09 I could see Howard top 10. Just not top 5.

Pasty7

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 15:16:56 Watching the post season this season Jimmy Howard came up huge for Detroit and was easily their MVP during th playoffs, And i don't buy the argument that Howards numbers are less impressive because of the Detroit redwings style of play, the Nashville Predators are one of the top defensive teams of the past 5 plus years, how else do they keep making the playoffs with sub par offensive players and numbers?

Rinne has played infront of top tier defenders too names like Suter and Weaber for all of his career,

Neimi has played for a stacked Chicago team and a top tier team in San Jose as well,

last season Howard faced : 1129 shots in 42 games

Rinne faced : 1101 shots in 43 games

Price faced : 1018 shots in 39 games

Neimi : 1220 in 43 games

So Howard sees as much work as any of these guys, And who was Howards defensive core this season? Kronwall, Erricsson, Quincy, Kindle, Smith, White? those are not superstArs by any strech, a huge reason the Wings made the post season this year is Jimmy Howard,

I'm not trying to be argumentative or insulting in anyway but it makes absolutley no sense to me how anyone can think this guy is not a top 10 goalie in the league,

I know this is a small sample size but isn't is surprising how many people ranked Luongo not only ahead of Schneider but way ahead of Schneider.

Shocking??

It is not - you're ranking goalies as of today, based on what they've done in the past. It would be impossible to rank Schneider above Luongo in those confines - Schneider has a single half-season as a starting goalie in the NHL.

However, ask the question "which goalie would you rather have as your starting goalie for the next 10 years", I think you'll see a lot more Schneider's than Luongo's.

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 13:35:57 I would also have a hard time putting Price in my top 10 because when he gets cold its damn chilly. I know when he is on its hard to find a better goalie, so I do understand why other people have this opinion of him. But he has been played out of the #1 position by another goalie not in the top 10 Halak.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 13:31:58 Its easy to see why Howard is lower on the rating scale is due to the product of his team. Detroit, although many considered to be on there down swing, has always been considered tight defensively. Howard has never seemed to have to steal a game, although I am sure he has. Some of the other ranked above him have played for lessor teams and because of that seem to be stars above him. I question the ranking of Anderson so highly, versus guys like Neimi and even Ward. Neimi has been a star for 2 teams one of which won the stanely cup, Ward has only played for a hot (Stanely cup win) or severely cold Carolina team, yet is always in the picture for the world stage. I think Andersons great and might have had a better quest for Vezina last year if he had played more, but that was the first time he was on that level. I would rank Ward and Neimi higher than him at this point, based on a longer resume of success at that level.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Leafs81

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 13:17:19 I can't talk for the others, but here's why I rate Howard in the middle of the pack.

He plays for a team that plays a puck possession type game. That reduces the time in his own zone. When the team is struggling, the team is strugling. I don't really see Howard as a goalie that carries his team through rough time. He doesn't steal games for them

I think when I look at good goalies is how they can carry their team on their shoulders and steal them games when the team struggles. I don't see that from Howard, not compare to guys like Price or Anderson.

It's a good question none the less and hard to really prove anything, but this is base on opinions for me more then stats.

but that can go both ways why is Rinne a top 3 and Howard 17th on this list? their stats are basivly the same Rinne hasn't won a stanley cup? so what has Rinne done that Howard hasn't done?

before someone jumps all over me yes Rinne is a better goalie in my opinion that Howard but how come a guy with the same stats rated so much worse by most of us? and how are guys like Price Rask Anderson etc considerd better than Howard? only rask has better stats but in a considerbly smaller sample size,?

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 12:51:55 The question is what did Howard do to be better then those guys?

Pasty7

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 12:12:33 Could someone tell me why Howard doesn't crack most people's top 10 , in 234 career NHL games he is 131-67-26 with a 2.36 G.A.A and a 918 sv% he has won 35 or more games in all three of his last seasons and 21 during the lock out shortend season,

in the playoffs he is 20 -22 with a G.A.A of 2.57 and a 918 sv %

Lets find some comparables.

Price who almost everyone rates as higher than Howard

310 GP 2.56 G.A.A .915 sv%

Anderson

318 gp 2.71 G.A.A .915 Sv %

Rinne

293 GP 2.36 G.A.A .919 sv%

Neimi

213 GP 2.34 G.A.A .917 Sv%

so by age games played and stats both Rinne and Neimi are Howards comparables so what makes howard so much worse than these guys? Both The Preds and the Sharks are as good as the Redwings over the last 3 seasons, and Howard is as important to the wings as Neimi and Rinne are to their respective teams,

And what makes Price better than Howard? besides playing for a weaker team? and Anderson?

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 12:07:44 I know this is a small sample size but isn't is surprising how many people ranked Luongo not only ahead of Schneider but way ahead of Schneider.

Shocking??

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Leafs81

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 11:49:25 I like Beans way to list the goalies.

Pasty, I would not put Howard in the top 5. Not right now, not a chance.

As for Niemi vs Anderson. Anderson seems to be putting great save % year after year, except for one in Colorado. He also gave a chance to Ottawa to win every night and is a big reason why Ottawa did good the past two seasons when everybody had them out of the playoff picture.

Niemi won a cup with a really solid Chicago team and he then played with San Jose who are also a solid team in the west. I don't see Niemi play as much as Anderson but for me I would rate Anderson higher. They are really close and they would both make my list of 6-10 goalies.

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 11:11:09 Slozo, I like your list. Just one quick question: Why Anderson in your top 7 and not Neimi?? I see Anderson with a better save % and his GAA was better last season. But one would also argue that the Senators had one of the better defenses in the NHL??

Just curious. I might put more meat behind the Cup win and the less defensive team that Neimi plays on. He is a borderline inside the top 5 guy in my books.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

slozo

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 10:41:23 I had a lot of problems with this list as well, frankly - but it IS a tough list to make, way tougher than forwards, and I think tougher than defencemen (although also not easy).

So much of what a goalie is depends on defence and system and overall team in front of them. Even the division and conference have a hand in it really. Throw in the different team market pressures (ie the hardest cities of Toronto and Montreal, vs an easy one like Columbus or the Florida teams) and you really have no good way to quantify things sometimes, until after a player's career - and then sometimes only with players who have played for varying teams, etc to get a fuller sample size.

I know! That's a huge middle group, but . . . to me, that's the reality. AND, that middle group is not far below the second tier, IMHO. Just a slight dip in consistency, that's all.

Then it's the bottom group, no sense going into that one - yuo get the picture.

My main beefs are the HUGE overvalued opinions and snubs based on a half season's work . . . the goaltending position has ebbs and flows, and those mitigating factors we talked about (team defence, system) MUST be taken into account.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Beans15

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 10:14:20 I think ranking goalies is always tough, especially when you are trying to place them in a specific order. I think one could shuffle a goalie a few positions one way or the other pretty easily. For that reason, I am taking the easy way out. I will rank the starting goalies 1-5, 5-10, 10-20, and 20-30.

Top 5 - Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne, Rask, Niemi

Now, most wouldn't argue with the first three but some would argue Rask and Niemi. Bottom line, numbers and playoff success don't lie.

Next 5 - Luongo, Anderson, Halak, Price, Howard

Elliot is not the starter in STL so he should not be on the list of the top 30. Some may question why Ward is not in this range but the answer is simple. He doesn't belong in the top 10. I get that Caroline is not a great team but the top 10 goalies in the league almost all have GAA better than 2.50 and a save % better than .920. In 9 seasons, Ward has one season of better than .920 and zero seasons of better than 2.50 GAA.

I seriously considered Crawford being higher but I didn't know who I would have kicked out of the 5-10 group and he doesn't have a huge body of work to compare to the others. Bobrovsky is here but could shoot from this range into the top 5 with another season like last year. Too many Jim Carrey "Net Detectives" and Steve Mason's have proven to be one hit wonders to trust what Bobrovsky can do long term.

Fleury should be higher and if it was a measurement of regular season only, he would be top 10. Unfortunately, he has proven for more than one offseason to be untrustworthy in the playoffs. Pavlec is also a guy who could be higher but he is very streaky.

Now, to close this list off, I would like to ensure people understand my opinion of 'starting' goalies. Firstly, a legit starting goalie is a guy that can handle a lion share of the workload for a team and consistently deliver solid performances. By that definition, there are only 27 legit starting goalies. I would not put Markstrom, Holtby, or Ramo in the definition of starters. But they are the best their teams have at this point.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Pasty7

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 08:59:12 I have some real problems with this list , Howard 17 really? he is close to my top 5, Bobrovsky? really is he even really a starter yet? Mike Smith a decent back up untill one good year in the desert and then a shakey one the year after? here is how i would rank em,

I think the top 3 are so close I wouldn't overly disagree with anyone who interchanges their positions but I don't see how anyone could keep Howard out of a top 10 position and i can't see Rask in the top 5

Posted - 07/30/2013 : 05:53:10 Looking at that list, what team would be in need of a goalie like Halak.

Florida and Calgary seems like the obvious choice. Would the Islanders try to replace an aging Nabokov? Will Colorado give up on Varlamov?

It also seems like a lot of teams are trying out a tandem.

St-Louis, Philadelphia, Toronto, Tampa Bay, New Jersey...

One more thing, what does a goalie like Craig Anderson needs to do to gain some respect?

Alex116

Posted - 07/26/2013 : 15:42:24 Just a few opinions....

Bobrovsky (5) - too small sample size. Would be borderline top 8 on my list.

Smith (6) - too high. Until i see a guy succeed elsewhere after success in the desert, i think the system makes him look better than maybe he is, much like Bryzgalov and his success there.

Price (7) - prob bump him up a couple spots. Yeah, he's had a bad stretch or two, but when he's on, he's top 3.

Ward (10) - another guy i'd prob bump a couple spots higher.

Howard (17) - much like Osgood....no respect!

Holtby (20) - Prob where i'd have him at this point and why i'm surprised he's ot the orientation camp list.

umteman

Posted - 07/26/2013 : 13:43:29 I think I would have put Lundqvist at #1. As stated he is the yardstick by which others are measured.

Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"

nuxfan

Posted - 07/26/2013 : 13:25:41 I'm not sure if I put Bob at #5. Granted, Vezina trophy winner this past season. But a shortened season, and before that, he was pretty ordinary if not sub-par. Thats a pretty lofty ranking for a goalie with 38 games as a starter.