Out of all your complaints in the thread I responded to in the general forum, the only one that I consider worth addressing at this time is the question of subs and pins. (Indeed, it is really the only one that is addressable considering Peter's current work status, as he doesn't have to do anything to change it).

Sub moves have two different aspects: The application % and the sub %. The application percent is based on wrestler conciousness just like every other move in the game, but the sub % is a fixed %. The original justification for this was that subs operate off of pressure points, and, once applied, the conciousness of the victim should have nothing to do with sub %, since it is about pain tollerance, and not damage sustained. In fact, the only reason subs do any damage at all is to reflect the energy required to resist that pain, and so that they can operate in other match environments and not be a liability.

Pins are like subs, but the pin % is dependent on the conciousness of the victim. The lower the conciousness, the easier it is to pin. This goes for normal as well as move pins.

The question I put to you, the player body, is this:

Are subs and pins moves applied too frequently, or are they successful too frequently?

Let me elaborate.

Should we keep the same sub/pin%, but decrease the odds that these moves are ever applied, or should we keep the same application frequency and decrease the chance that they are successful? We could also do both, but the danger there is it would be too easy to either not affect the game much, or affect it too much.

(I hesitate to ask this) What % decrease do you think is appropriate to whatever aspect you think needs changed?

Please try to keep this thread focused, as it only serves in your best interests.

Post by: Kray(52284)2005-02-08 23:54:48

In my opinion, the frequency of subs performed should be decreased not the percentages. I had done quite afew headlocks during my time in LAW and SPWA and I only ever got 1 submission win but when fighting a person who had alot of submissions then it was likely that I would tap out as in the duration I could be applied to 7 or 8 different submissions which is far too many and would almost definetly result in a tap out. Here is one of my older matches when I only had Head Lock and Figure Four Leg Lock.

http://vow.plit.dk/cgi-bin/vow.pl?_cmd=ShowMatch&ChallengeId=481475

I made 3 F4s and Mark attempted 2 Head Scissors, 2 Sleeper Holds 1 Bear Hug and 1 Head Lock. 9 Subs in that match and it resulted in a knockout(By a sub :) )

Another match:

http://vow.plit.dk/cgi-bin/vow.pl?_cmd=ShowMatch&ChallengeId=481590

Again I locked in 3 F4s and Inferno made 1, we both made 1 Head Lock each and Inferno made an extra Ankle Lock. It ended in a submission.

Now before people accuse me of choosing those matches for the fact that they had alot of subs, I chose them as the last two matches in my match list(Numbers 60 and 59 respectively) and I could confirm which subs I did have.

In roughly my last 70 matches I have made about 14 sub wins and recently I have been losing alot of matches.

In the aspect of pin% and frequency of pins I have no problem with it. The last time I really noticed a match having a fair few pins was against a Trad so it's totally acceptable and since pins should constitiute the highest number of wins then alot of pins in a match is totally acceptable.

Just to add a little more: This was the last match I had
http://vow.plit.dk/cgi-bin/vow.pl?_cmd=ShowMatch&ChallengeId=502900
Out of the 13 moves that Pambihira attempted, 8 of them where Subs. That's why people hate subs!

Post by: Kueller(13231)2005-02-09 02:00:20

Awesome! Another discussion about Sub% and stuff... even after 30 of those, I never get tired of them :-s

I dont think there is anything wrong with the amount of subs being used in the matches you mentioned above.
Most wrestling matches in RL have at least 5 to ten "head locks" alone, plus a few "arm bars" or similar arm locks, usually one or two leg locks or alternatively a sleeper hold...

The reason why people hate subs, is not because they are done often. The reason why they hate them is because they feel cheated whenever someone makes them tap either when they were clearly winning the match or right at the beginning of the match.

Changing the hit chance would not really make much of a difference here - the likelyhood of it happening would still be high enough. If you reduce the hit chance of sub moves by 10%, then as soon as your opponents raise their submission skill by 10 (will take them between 500 and 2000 exp, depending on style and current exp level) you will be right back where you started.

You obviously cant lower the hit chance too much - otherwise low exp chars will never hit... which would just ruin their wrestler when they have to face PG's with their 70% hit chance Piledrivers, Suplexes, etc. pp.
Also, anyone who has submoves as their finisher would be screwed - plain and simple. Your finishers would hurt you more than they actually gain you, because a lower hit chance also means they will get countered a lot more. Those people may as well detach then.

Now to the other solution: you make subs work similar to pins:

ATM, subs have the same chance of making someone tap when the guy is allmost KO as they do when he is freshly into the match.
example(fictional move and pct):

Indian Death Lock - 30% at full con, 30% at 0 con

Now, what would be the problem with just decreasing the chance to make someone tap at full con?

It would solve all the problems, without making a huge impact on the game equilibrium. Noone would be screwed. Those feeling cheated now would be happy.

example:
new Indian Deathlock - 5% at full con, 30% at 0 con

Whats wrong with that? seriously?

Post by: Doug the Designer(55)2005-02-09 02:05:31

Nothing.

Post by: gatcholio(28366)2005-02-09 02:10:16

maybe Pambhira had mostly subs he bought while you have few.

Of your 14 wins out of 70 matches, let's look at it this way.

70 matches. probably win 35 of them, on average.

35 wins

3 types of possible losses (ko, sub, pin)

35/3 = approximately 12 matches on average you should win by sub out of 70 matches.

I don't see anything wrong with it. you got 14 and most likely on average out of this, you will have 12.

I doubt many people have more matches decided by subs than pins, so I can never understand the controversy here.

When people lose to me by sub, they curse the sub system, challenge me again, and when they win by sub, they say nothing. It's a matter of selective memory. you remember your sub losses, but not the wins.

The only problem I see in the system on subs is if someone is getting whooped 100 damage to 50, and the more hurt one pulls a sub. Maybe your sub% should decrease as your con goes down within the match.

Not everyone hates subs, and by changing it too much, remember you will have just as many unhappy players on the other side too. You can never make everyone happy is a group this size. And what happens if it changes and there is a shift towards str moves? Then we will have to read about that all the time. :S

People choose not to fight PG's and SN's cuz they don't want the injuries. If you don't want to deal with as many subs, don't fight the techs n trads. :)

Post by: Fangblast(13923)2005-02-09 02:44:03

I am 110% against any changes to subs. It's like lowering the damage PGs do bcuz people moan about it.

Post by: gatcholio(28366)2005-02-09 02:46:38

I agree 120%

Post by: insane clown(11577)2005-02-09 03:29:49

well lets see something still needs to be done they are too effective i shouldnt be kicking ass then losing as often as i do so i think the chance of u tapping before u get say half of your con damage should be low. and once u have over 50% con damage it should raise,

Post by: Fangblast(13923)2005-02-09 03:51:30

(I was going add more to what I just said but i got distracted)

Any change needs to be fair to all the people with lots of subs, especially the ones without many of the other moves. I don't think that would be possible.

Post by: BubbaG(33460)2005-02-09 04:31:05

Any changes made are gonna piss someone off. That being said here's my two cents.

I don't think that the frequency of Subs should change. But like Kueller said, I think it should be set up like pins. The lower your con is the greater the chance of be subbed is.

It makes more sense to have it based on the more damage you have taken the greater chance of putting yourself in a chance of having to submit. There still should be those lucky subs, just not as many.

Post by: mistahspeddles(20309)2005-02-09 04:54:04

Lowering Submissions in application or success is totally a joke. Every time this comes up it makes me want to strangle people. I seriously don't understand people. Let's just make everything in the game worth 3 damage and you can never end the match till your vital life hits 0 and someone dies. That's about as good of idea as this.

Why lower the application percent? Do you really want to punish someone who wants to make a Submission type wrestler to the point where he will not hit a move until he is half KO'd at least? That is just insane. Why do we even have the moves then if they will not even be close to useable anywhere in the beginning of the match? It's not like you don't see headlocks, dives at the legs for leg locks or various armbars very quickly in matches anyway. So in all reality it does exist if you want VOW to be realistic. But if this isn't considered realistic, then you need to consider removing all those application percentages to high damage moves. These moves are about as common early in matches as are submissions. There was supposedly more of a progression put into the game to aid with this, but it still exists. You really need to look at a fair and balanced approach to this if you're looking at realism. Also balancing out the game comes to mind, if you change this one aspect you should also change the other.

As for progressive chances to success being changed. Again I really think this is a horrible idea. It's not like your move is changing, or your skill is changing negatively. It is all about how you hit the right points, and that is what the setup is now. That is what the game is at right now. Again it is almost making these moves useless to have. They do close to no damage for the most part, so what is the point if they do nothing through what would be the majority of most matches. The only way to be fair is to put a percentage on damage to the big damage moves for the majority of the match. If you say Submissions are more likely to happen towards the end of the match, then you need to look at the fact that moves would also be more damaging at the end of the match. It's called wear and tear.

The game is fine the way it is in this area, seriously. If it isn't broke don't fix it. I get both ends of this stick, I get KO'd enough and I lose enough (mainly tournaments) when I am ahead. It is part of the game, you deal with it. This would really bring the game down, you make a good amount of the moves useless. Don't forget this will just add to injuries. That area is getting annoying when 1-2k healing is a good day. This whole thing makes me want to get my last moves, retire and forget it, since a good majority of the moves I like would be worthless. Why would I want to start over? I can't be a Tech again, which is what my wrestler would always be classified as. Then you want to take away Submissions which is the core of what my character was about before I even set foot in this game. The first I can deal with, the second I can't.

Quit trying to ruin the game whiners.

Post by: Kray(52284)2005-02-09 10:06:48

I wasn't complaining about the amount of matches that end in submissions except in the fact that a person like me with only 2 subs(3 now) would pull off a F4 3 times(I barely do chops, kicks, etc that much) in a match when it is a difficult move and that due to the new sub I bought I had finished 14 matches out of 70, it's like finishing a large amount of matches with Northern Lights without it being a finisher, it isn't the most probably move to pull off and it won't finish so many matches.

I understand that people like Pambihira have focused on subs so they should be doing a fair few and finishing as many matches but people like me who don't focus on subs shouldn't be locking in the same few subs again and again in one match until I win when I rarely do my easy moves to the same extent.

I also have no problem with sudden finishes due to subs at either the beginning or when they are losing severely, it happens, and although I didn't really state it I have no problem with a large quantity of weak subs but when people are getting a continuous amount of F4s and SDLs thats when it starts getting annoying(even when I am the one doing it). Although I do also realise that any change to the game that would have a significant effect to a certain type of player it wrong and subs would need to be compensated for people who use them as the focus of the wrestler.

Post by: beggar(46408)2005-02-11 14:41:22

maybe we could link sub chance to difficulty of the move?
or set up an entirely different sub chance table, unrelated to damage or difficulty

after all, in "real" wrestling, the sub moves that win matches are rather limited
Crossface, Camelclutch, Sleeper, Figure Four
and occasionally, someone comes along who's gimmick it is to win matches via subs, like Davy Boy Smith useing the full nelson or Mankind useing the ... what was is called again? mandible claw?
(and I vaguely remember the Bushwackers winning matches via the ... armpit rub)

But how often do you see someone winnig a match on a wristlock/half nelson/achilles tendon hold/chickenwing?

the other day, I won a match on the third move via achilles tendon hold ... rather disappointing really

Post by: Mad Bear(46310)2005-02-17 01:22:06

Best matches are the ones where you do the first submission move and it's pathetic and they laugh in your face then give up, =)

Post by: Jaysen Chambers(46756)2005-02-21 13:43:26

uhhh the bushwackers did the battery ram.. not the armpit rub, the nasty boys did 'pit city' though which is just shoving your opponents face into his armpit.

Post by: The Legend Killer(21778)2005-02-22 01:43:06

Back on subject:

OK, my tech wrestler from LAW to low/mid PWO was buying nothing but submission and pinning moves. Sometimes, he had more submission wins than 95% of the PWOs. Currently out of 675 singles matches, 358 have been determined by subs (280 wins and 78 losses). This means that 1 in less than every 2 fights are being determined by submission.

OK, to sweep through LAW to SSWO is easy if you buy subs.... probabily true! BUT (and here is the real BUT) you can leave yourself wide open in matches against people that have a lot more (probabily mid damage) moves. If you buy all the subs and pins at the LOWEST cost, it will take you to 1450 exp (1400 exp for trads/PGs) to buy the 24 sub moves and another 450 exp (400 for techs) to buy all of the 9 pinning moves available. Add on another 50 exp for Toss out of Ring (SNs start with this), and that means that it will take to 1950 exp for an aerialist (1900 exp for all other types) to buy all of the pin/subs/KO chance moves.

Advantages:
~ You can now concentrate on buying damage moves.
~ You have a good chance of hitting a move with sub/pin/KO chance

How many people get knocked out from a slap, or frankly from most of the moves we have here? How many times do people get knocked out at all in wrestling. You guys don't realize how faulty your arguments are. You try to throw in realism but you don't realize that so much of what you want isn't even realistic. This isn't real wrestling, this is a game

Actually what you said about buying Subs and Pins is very true LK. Focusing on Subs/Pins will get you killed later with all these damage people. Then again if you focus on damage, you will get subbed a lot, which is the complaint of a lot of people. What people don't realize is that is what the game is there for. If you choose one thing you will do it well, if you don't do the other, you will likely be suffering a lot from opponents who chose the other way. That's how it works, it's your choice how you want to build your wrestler.

Nobody really has the right to say lower sub, lower pin, lower damage. You choose your wrestler and his moves, and everyone else does the same. You lose matches because of the way other people put their wrestler together and how you put yours together. Get over it. You win, you lose, it's all part of the game.

Post by: Crosson(37742)2005-02-24 09:29:12

Maybe I'm the only one who's noticed this, but it seems as of late to be more true than not.

It seems that the only time you DON'T pull off a sub win is when you have a large lead. You can still get a sub win if the match is fairly even or even if you're behind, but it never seems to happen when you have a fairly large lead (or a full blown huge lead).

so what you lose to a sub? get over it and move on it isent that hard tho that scorpion deathlock hurts like heck :) just get stronger or fight in ladder/cage matchs were you cant tap

Post by: Lincoln(27675)2005-03-06 20:16:57

Don't lower subs... I agree with Fangblast.

Post by: lazy(27024)2005-03-06 21:15:39

Its harder to escape subs if your heavily damaged and therefore there is more time in the sub move increasing the chance.......(The sub percent now can be when everyone takes %25-50 percent of their con.)

Post by: m_carta(37500)2005-03-11 17:26:46

Well, I'm getting subbed AND receiving more damage than my opponents in my latest matches, so maybe the changes have been implemented?