Firstly, Ryleen relayed the outcome of her latest meeting with General Duskclaw of the Warsong Blades. To secure an end to the blood feud declared on us by the Blades, we must appear before the Blood Pact, admit our fault, denounce Zanick for her attack on Elder Nazrug and demilitarise to demonstrate so as to no longer pose a threat.

In addition, Ryleen must renounce the title of Warlord and the Heritage of Zandalar will no longer be considered part of the Horde.

As such, members of the Heritage are requested to 1) attend the Blood pact meeting that will decide our fate (the date will be announced as soon as it is known) and 2) inform Chabat of any ideas for a new title befitting the Leader of the Heritage so that we can make a list, then all decide on the best one.

Next we discussed the ongoing problems with Kaz’jo. The spirit is still possessing him and is currently in control so everybody is advised to be cautious. It tried to leave but it seems that the only way it can do this is to find something for it to move into.

As the spirit is one of rage and violence it felt a weapon would be most fitting for it to inhabit. Ryleen has recently acquired an old weapon that may be just right though it is in need of some repair.

Following this, the condition of the forsaken, Razéal, was discussed. The forsaken has spent some time with us in recent weeks as his aid with the children put him out of favour in the House.

After the fire that burnt out the Town Hall building, Razéal is very badly injured, but still ‘alive’. Sadly, he has also been robbed of an item of jewellery. His partner, Zuzana, has been informed if the situation, though Ryleen is reluctant to allow her inside the valley as she is very loyal to the House of Sylvanas. We will be doing everything we can to try and help Razéal recover as soon as possible.

Gen’jin was to have brought us news from the Zandalari as to how we can gain their favour though he did not arrive at the valley in time for the meeting.

Hadunka, however, announced that the Revantusk tribe have declared us welcome in their village though they will not support us should we have any further issues with the Horde.

Finally, Ryleen has decided that her pregnancy is no longer to be kept secret. As she is now two months gone, it will soon start to show so we can now share the happy news with our friends that the first new member of our extended family is on the way.

Addendum: Chabat is planning a herb garden and has already brought some plants to the valley. If anybody has any suggestions for useful herbs to be included, please let her know.

_________________"If we don't know where we belong, it'll make no difference from where we started"

Ry is pregnant? And who's the daddy? A handsome troll or some ugly green orc? (Can orcs actually impregnate trolls? Elf-human, orc-human, orc-draenei and orc-ogre hybrids are confirmed in lore, but I never heard of trolls cross-breeding with any other creature)

I know I'm dead, so I don't really have a voice here . . . and, of course, I don't know what was actually said at the meetings with the Blades, but it seems more than a bit unfair to demand that the Heritage denounce Zanick for her attack on Nazrug.

A state of war, or at least blood feud, existed between the Heritage and the Warsong Blades at the time. What did the treacherous greenskins expect? Did they think that we would avoid them and only fight if attacked first? That's not the way that wars and feuds are conducted. If the orcs are unclear about how these things are done, perhaps some trolls could offer to educate them. Are they offended that we offered battle when so provoked? Or could it be that, yet again, they have other motives? Are they making these demands just to demean the trolls of the Heritage and to force Ryleen to grovel before them?

Also, I don't see why the guild should appear before the Blood Pact at all. The Pact is worthless (in my opinion). In fact, some might think that the Heritage was invited to join knowing that we were likely to break the rules and so give the others the excuse they wanted to disband our guild or render us powerless in the struggle for supremacy that is going on amongst the other guilds. Too cynical, perhaps. But that's what happened.

The Heritage has declared itself no longer a part of the Pact. That should be an end to it. The Heritage no longer owes any loyalty to the discredited Pact and the Pact members should have no authority to demand the appearance before them of any of our guild's members. Or . . . is it another opportunity to demonstrate their oppression of Ryleen and her loyal followers?

If the Heritage has been kicked out of the Horde, what more punishment can they dish out to us? If the guild refuses to denounce (fierce, beautiful, flame-haired) Zanick or stand before the Blood Pact to be denounced and sneered at by faithless greenskins and their zuska collaborators, what more can they (be allowed to) do to the guild?

In other words, should we allow them to go so far in stripping us of all dignity? Accept their self-assumed authority in kicking us out of the Horde, if we must. But enough is enough. A troll's spirit is fierce and free. Trolls are the chosen people of the Makers here on Azeroth. These green-skinned invaders from another world, only recently freed of the taint of demon blood, are mere late-comers to our world. The zuska, whose very existence defies the natural laws, and the worst of the magic-addicted elves have no more right to authority in this land either.

Vol'jin's Darkspear trolls gave loyalty to Thrall and the Horde because they showed themselves to be trustworthy and honourable allies, and we wanted to repay the debt of honour for saving us from the sea-witch and her foul murlocs. We admired the orcs and found much in common with them. But if the orcs show themselves to be faithless and corrupt then the oath of loyalty has no foundation. Not all the orcs have shown themselves to be dishonourable, thats true. But the ones exercising 'authority' over us have done.

Would the Zandalari submit to such provocation and meekly accept such extreme punishment? I think not. It seems to me most un-trollish.

***I didn't intend this post to be a rallying cry. But I worry that, by uncharacteristically accepting too much degradation and dishonour, the Heritage of Zandalar will find it impossible to climb back to anything like a position of reasonable status within the remaining lifetime of World of Warcraft. A temporary downgrading can give the guild some interesting RP opportunities. But such a severe humiliation, as well as being difficult to accept for any free-willed troll, may ultimately result in limiting RP, cause RP difficulties and exclude guild members from RP events due to these IC reasons. If it becomes too difficult to play a troll in the HoZ then the guild's active membership will surely shrink even more.

So what would you have us do then, Zanick? Make war on them and all allow our characters to be killed off like yours? Yes, disbanding the guild sure seems like the better option.

As much as it's nice to play the innocent victim of this, we did cause so much of the problems here on our own. Not all of it like the Blades wants to claim, but we are in no way innocent. The punishment that was agreed on oocly between me and the other leaders is the one presented at the last guild meeting. It is the solution that does not end with death for us, and does not force the other guilds to let us off easy.

It has been decided already. The discussion is over. This is the best way we can hope to end this.

If you want to blame someone for all this, blame me. It was a plot centered on my character, and I allowed it to get out of hand by allowing other people to take over.

And I do not find it unfair what we have to do about Zanick. What she did, and when she did it, was incredibly stupid and did in no way whatsoever make anything better, quite the opposite.

Now.. I don't know if any of this made sense, and I will go back to sleeping off my fever.

Without our capitualtion, we -will- all be killed and the guild -will- die. We quite simply have no members that are capable of fighting against the warriors of the blades. We've already had members killed (and some npcs ). Lets face it, on the night the blades came to return Zanick's body, the 6 of them that were present could have destroyed us (to clarify, we had 1 scared 16 year old mage, A mage who was pregnant and without her powers, A warrior who actually did challenge them and was nearly killed and a Hunter and preist neither of whom were equipped for battle).

As we've stated elsewhere in more detail, Ryleen was actually guilty of the crimes she was accused of (namely siding with the enemy against a fellow member of the Horde). The Heritage encouraged and then colluded with Ry to get round her punishment.

This is just the way things have developed and unless somebody does what we've suggested earlier and steps in to take over the guild leadership, there's not much we can do about it now.

This is where we are. Its up to us to build something out of it and move on. If that means we don't get many people wanting to join us...well, that won't be any different from how things have been for some time, will it?

_________________"If we don't know where we belong, it'll make no difference from where we started"

I'll only mention that this all sounds incredibly stupid. We're no longer part of the Horde alright. But why should the orcs stop then? Isn't it only one more reason to finish us off as traitors? What exactly has been solved by this decision?

I'm pretty c ertain we've said this already but as there may have been some confusion, i'll quote Katalmach's respose to our question of what the BP would see as an acceptable way for us to get out of our current situation:

Katalmach wrote:The WSB role in all this is two fold. Firstly, we are an "authority"* guild and the defense of the Horde is an important duty to us. The chain of recent events with the Heritage; Ryleen's treason (and history with Overlord Agmar), the Heritage's stronger loyalties to a foreign power and Ryleen's open lack of serious Horde loyalty, the Heritage's "criminal" involvement in conspiracy and deception and support of Ryleen's treason, Kazjo spitting on Nazrug in response to a question about Horde loyalty and an overall lack of Horde loyalty across the board has resulted in the Heritage being seen as a direct threat to that charge. Secondly, the honour of the Blades itself comes into the picture due to various insults, accusations (the truth of which is unknown to all of us except for two rogues), and the major point being the attempted assassination of Nazrug by Zanick (which, given everything, implicates the Heritage further as a dangerous subversive group, given Nazrug's role in our war effort and the Heritage's past actions at Southshore).

With the above all taken at once, this establishes that from our end something must be done to neutralize the Heritage.

The idea of the HoZ becoming an openly non-Horde guild seems the most solid. To my thinking that raises two categories of requirement.

1) A way out. The Heritage must find grounds in RP to shift its image and PR from being seen as a untrustworthy, treasonous subversive group to a fundamentally non-threatening civilian one, so that defection from the Horde is not reacted to with suspicion and violence and to spare it from WSB retaliation.

2) A way forward. Specifically, if the Heritage is to be an openly neutral group there must be reasonable changes in the way the guild functions that meshes with issue 1. and provides reasonable context for future RP (so that the Heritage isn't merely retaining all rights and protections of Horde membership without having to worry about loyalty or liability).

To discuss point no. 1, my standing idea would be a list of demands placed on the Heritage from WSB. The demands would be as follows;

- For the Heritage to formally and publicly capitulate, denouncing Zanick and accepting fault for conspiracy against law and order.

- For the Heritage to demilitarize. This would involve pledging non-interference with any Horde military interests, be it to help or hinder, and for the leaders of the Heritage to retire the use of the "Warlord" title. This demand would tie in with a similar idea for issue no. 2.

- To withdraw any standing accusations.

If these are met, the WSB would in return wave its right of retaliation for the attempt on Nazrug's life, and not press any further retribution on the Heritage's standing crimes.

To address point no. 2, as to how the Heritage may defect peacefully and still be able to have certain interaction with the Horde. We'd like to see the following;

- Members of the Heritage forfeit "Horde citizenship". In other words they would not have the same rights that full Horde members do. What I have in mind specifically is that Heritage members forfeit the right to permanent domicile in Horde settlements or their immediate proximity, and the right to bear arms in Horde settlements (which ties back to demilitarization). In return, Heritage members would not be formally exiled or excommunicated or the like, but be allowed to travel through and enter Horde areas as travelers and scholars etc. to be treated in the same way as for example citizens of the Steamwheedle Cartel would be. Essentially the Heritage becomes foreign nationals. The Heritage would be released from the oath it gave while under Sertah's leadership, and any potential sovereign claim that the Horde has over Antu'rah, because of the Heritage's efforts in colonizing it while still giving lip service to the Horde, becomes void.

- The Heritage, in its recruitment efforts and public relations, makes clear that it does not represent Vol'jin or the Darkspear tribe, and that prospective members are leaving the Horde and forfeiting citizenship in order to join the Heritage.

- The Heritage consents to the supervision of Alaster and the Ashen Order in Heritage activities in the Horde sphere of interest and in meeting the above requirements.

In drawing up the above I have tried to focus on the issues at hand and have let slip some of the more minor/petty things we could require. If the above is met the open hostilities between WSB and HoZ could be put to bed then and there. Anything much more lenient than this would, from our POV, feel like it would start to stretch credibility. I think this would give both sides the largest portion of what they require, without forcing the Heritage to permanently ostracize itself in RP or forcing the WSB to forgive and forget serious issues without reason. And I also think that refocusing the Heritage as being an openly Zandalari guild provides good progression opportunities.

*note: i think what Katal means here is that they expect everybody to follow the chain of command, not that The Blades have direct authority over the Heritage.

Now personally, i think this the best solution we can hope for. It will give us the chance to firmly build our guild indenitiy (something that has never been clearly done to this point) and develop new rp opportunities and The Orcs will be happy that we're not a threat to the security of the Horde.

If people are having trouble seeing where he's coming from, think how any military organisation would react during a time of conflict if a group of their citizens helped defend an enemy settlement against an attack by one if their allies. That group would most certainly be rounded up and, if not excecuted, imprisoned until the end of the conflict.

Now we all blithely went along with these developments. Not once did anybody question what Ry was doing (either IC -or- OOC) and Ryleen has, several times, told people that they are free to dissasociate themselves from her. I think people should be asking themselves whether they were truely acting in character or just going along for the ride because if you were, then it's time to buck up and help build a new future for the Guild. If not, and you realise that your character should really have left Ryleen in the mess she made (IC'ly ofc ) or acted to remove her from power, then do it.

_________________"If we don't know where we belong, it'll make no difference from where we started"

To my understanding, we are leaving and we will essentially be establishing our own tribe.

We certainly won't be unique in this. There's other troll guilds that have set up outside the Horde and they don't have any trouble getting members or being involved in the rest of their server's RP when they want to.

_________________"If we don't know where we belong, it'll make no difference from where we started"

Apparently, Zanick doesn't have a problem with leaving the Horde, she has problem with humiliating ourselves before doing so.

But I say... we either leave with admitting ourselves guilty and leaving in a semi-peaceful way, or leaving with the pride of the innocent victim and declaring ourselves the enemies of the Horde once and for all. Which one is better?

...denouncing Zanick and accepting fault for conspiracy against law and order.

Honestly, this has nothing to do with the current situation and is only needed for the orcs to patch up their battered ego. Again, how many orcs did we actually kill? And how many of our trolls were killed by orcs?

For the Heritage to demilitarize.

We were never a militarized group, so nothing really changes.

...for the leaders of the Heritage to retire the use of the "Warlord" title.

Same thing.

To withdraw any standing accusations.

And do we have any? I'm not really sure about the situation with Ry's children and who is to blame for their deaths(?), but other than that our conflict was with the House, not the orcs.

We are also not forced out of the Horde after accepting those demands and leaving on our own free will.

So in the end it all comes down to this: "Call Zanick a traitor, and we'll let you off this time."Is this particular issue really that important to the orcs? Or am i missing something again?

Zul'Ros wrote:So in the end it all comes down to this: "Call Zanick a traitor, and we'll let you off this time."Is this particular issue really that important to the orcs? Or am i missing something again?

Exactly. You know the honor-mania of orcs. They will not give up until their broken ego is fixed.That's why we have to withdraw all accusations, and denounce Zanick.I'm not happy about the latter either, and Snicka would do everything to clear Zanick's name, but it is Ryleen who accepted the terms (IC), and she's willing to do that. She put reason and diplomacy before pride and honour.While we "officially" denounce Zanick, we can still remember her as our hero - Antu'Rah is ours, the Horde can't tell us what we do there.

The Blades interpreted Zanick's attack on Nazrug as an assassination attempt ordered by Ryleen. We all know that wasn't the case but the Blades don't know that IC. The denouncement would be the Heritage declaring that Zanick was acting entirely on her own (which was true) and that we in no way support what she did (which may be true for some of us...but probably not all ). It's the only way for us to establish that we are not some kind of terrorist group planning to destabilise the Horde by taking out a senior military organisers

However, Snicka is right, they cannot do anything if at least some of us decide Zan was Hero who deserves to be venerated for her actions. In fact, Nazrug himself did say she was a worthy adversary and seemed to regret that she died.

The accusations Katal is talking about are the ones Ry made at her last meeting with the Pact. I can't seem to find any record of what they were other than the one we know of, namely that the Blades had the children murdered. This is a grave accusation and, as far as the Blades are concerned, completely baseless as, IC'ly: 1) only the 2 rouges involved know about it and 2) our only proof is the word of a warlock

As for the other stuff, you;re right, it's merely to make the Orcs feel better as we aren't and never have been any kind of military organisation.

_________________"If we don't know where we belong, it'll make no difference from where we started"

Ryleen, I know how much work you had in this, I think you have chosen the best solution possible from an OOC perspective. This means the guild will still be able to be involved in Horde RP without being labelled as "public enemies", but will be independent enough to not be completely submissive to other RP guilds.

From an IC perspective, the biggest objection to this solution is the "trollish pride" that Zanick mentioned. But then, people have the IC choice to either accept it, or leave the Heritage. Maybe form an "Anti-Blades" troll guild (like our short-lived Zul'jin project).

Vypra wrote:The accusations Katal is talking about are the ones Ry made at her last meeting with the Pact. I can't seem to find any record of what they were other than the one we know of, namely that the Blades had the children murdered. This is a grave accusation and, as far as the Blades are concerned, completely baseless as, IC'ly: 1) only the 2 rouges involved know about it and 2) our only proof is the word of a warlock

Well as for the accusation .. Ry said that the blades are responsible for the death of the children ... and that Katal do not have control over his troops "as they seem to do things you are not aware of" (more or less a quote) This referring to the numerous harassments in Antu'Rha agents HoZ and her.There was some more as well .... soIn short as i remeber it: Blades are responcibul for the kids death, questioning the word (read hounur) of the blade mebers, Katals capabilety as a general.There was some more as well but I do not remember well enough to tell them as I am to sure they are part of IC and not fun talk OOC.

As for the "word of the warlock" ... From the beginning Lea told that the kids were murdered in there sleep by pillows. But WE have re scripted it (at request of the rogues in question ... and I (as the warlock) accept it) to be that he could simply not summon them. The warlock keep claiming that it is because they are dead, but have admitted that there is ways that they may be alive and he could not summon them. Al of em in his opinion would be worth than death and belie it or not .. he has bin kind enough to Ryleen not to tell any of the "not dead" options to her.

As for the way things are heading now ... I can not see a better way that would allow us to continue the guild. My sense of justice is tingling hard ... as it is a very uneven punishment ... but that is only because I OOC know so much about what's happened (yet I doubt I even know half of it).But no mater how much wrong others have don ... some of the actions (IC) from HoZ have bin stupid (but very understandable from a IC pov ... with the chars we have). As for me ... well I sort of got carried away playing my character as I intended him, and I believe I was not alone there. We need to remember that RP is always a group thing (even more when we do not have a ST or GM controlling events). Thus it is up to us al (yes the other guilds to) to some time take a step back and look at it OOC and see ... is this going in a bad direction for RP?

The solution we have will work from a IC pov ... as long as HoZ can see the benefit of bowing head now ... to keep it the other options we have is "lets rip up soem of the events adn pretend it never hapened" = flaming and dramaor simply abandoning Hoz as the RP idea it is now (and in the progress most likely kill of a few chars .. and that is never fun).

As for IC ... We al need to make decisions IC what to do next. Had have a rely hard time now, and I take this as a chance to (if only in my own head) develop him through trails created by his "loa". I will try and make a written story of it The active members of Hoz might have noticed Hadunka being a bit strange lately ... detached sort of ... this is why. Hadunkas "loa" is Beth'ekk .. so if you want a preview of what he is going through ... take a look at her description.

Eek. I didn't intend my post to stir up a scorpid's nest like this. And it certainly wasn't my intention to blame Ryleen or any of the other leading members of the Heritage who have done a great job in keeping some interesting and challenging RP stories going. (Ryleen, sorry to hear that you're not feeling well.)

I really don't care if Zanick is branded a traitor. I know the truth. She spent much of her life striving to become a scout in the Horde army. She finally succeeded. Then the Warsong Blades declared that all members of the Heritage were traitors to the Horde. And because Zanick would never denounce her guild, she couldn't continue as a scout. Her life fell apart and she attacked Nazrug out of desperation and rage.

It's laughable that the Blades should characterise this as an assassination attempt. If Zanick had been trying to assassinate Nazrug she would have chosen a better place and time, and she would have attacked without warning. Instead she spent some time arguing with Nazrug on the front of a zeppelin before attacking him. But it really doesn't matter if the Blades besmirch Zanick's memory.

You're right, Ryleen. I do feel some injured pride. Not that Zanick might be denounced as a traitor or an incompetent assassin. But that what I thought was playing Zanick truthfully in-character is now causing more IC difficulties for the guild she left behind. I hadn't foreseen that. I should have found a better solution to Zanick's dilemma.

Ryleen, you mentioned a 'the Pact is out to get us' tone. I didn't mean to suggest that any players deliberately set out to attack our guild in this way. My suggestion was that, in-character, some trolls might suspect that the House of Sylvanas are manipulating the Blades to get rid of or weaken one of the House's main adversaries (i.e. us). I doubt that we could convince Katalmach of that though!

I still cannot fully understand why the Heritage, a non-military group, got involved in a pact of mutual defense of Horde lands. Because our guild is not organised along military lines our RP stories are quite different in nature. In my opinion, this means that the Heritage will never fit well into a pact of this sort.

My main concern is that the various events have been twisted into proof that the Heritage is a "dangerous subversive group". Good RP, but it causes problems. As usual, we need to find an in-game solution. As usual this means submitting to the in-game authority of another guild. Fair enough. That's realistic in the in-game situation that we have helped to develop.

But, I have to say, that throughout the three years or so that I was playing, this situation annoyed the hell out of me. It was the principal reason that I kept out of so many RP storylines. The inter-guild difficulties that dominated the Horde RP simply didn't fit into the internal dialogue that was my imagined story of Zanick's life. I tried several times to steer the guild RP towards the game storylines, such as hostilities with the Alliance and the fight against Hakkar, but I never achieved any real success. It seems that my views on RP were out of step with most other players.

In my D&D days we would have collectively agreed a campaign storyline - an overall direction into which the individual adventures would fit. Ryleen, is there any out-of-character discussion between the various guild leaders about the broad direction that the RP should go? For example, was it intended that the Heritage would develop conflicts with the other groups in the Blood Pact?

What do other players think about the overall direction of Horde RP? Snicka, how do you see this from the viewpoint of the guild's founder, now that you've not been playing for a while? Chabat, Ryleen, you've both been involved in Horde RP for a long time: How do you think the recent storylines will affect the Heritage in the long term? Where will the guild be six months or a year from now? For the players that have joined our guild in the last year or so, are you enjoying the type of RP stories that have developed? Perhaps you can find a way to increase the fun.

Personally, I think I need to be less involved in the Heritage now that I'm no longer playing. My out-of-step comments seem to do more harm than good. It's hard to let go after such a long time playing Zanick! But it's time to slip into the shadows . . .

Ive so far felt that this short time ive been in heritage that ive been involved in good but sad rp.

Wonder though what have ye done "defending enemies and attacking the horde", what is that? as its before my time.

ooc ly the terms for our capitulation, they seem a bit harsh but it works and gives heritage more of, as said before by ye, identification what kinda guild it is, think there are ppl looking for an neutral rp guild outside the horde which dont plot to destroy allies all the time.

ic i prob get some trouble with "demilitarization". well atleast as long as i still lvl up. But as an rogue i might find an way around it