wingate wrote:When I first saw Day at the Races on BBC tv the water ballet sequence was shown but I have never seen it since.Also there is a song which has cut which Groucho reprises at the finale.I wonder if the original number exists.

Many years back, I watched DAY AT THE RACES late-night on BBC, and one section (Margaret Dumont in the dentist's chair, etc) was repeated. Can't recall if any of it was skipped, but I don't think the announcer apologised at the end.

Apparently the latest restoration of Horse Feathers still has the cuts, but according to DVD Savant's friend Gary Teetzel, who attended a recent screening of the new transfers, the restored Animal Crackers has some lines restored thanks to a British dupe neg that kept the scenes intact.

When the film started and we got to "Hooray for Captain Spaulding," the audience burst into applause when Groucho's long-censored line ("I think I'll try to make her,") following Margaret Dumont's "He is the only white man / To cover every acre") was heard for the first time in decades. Other restored bits:

When Lillian Roth comes up to Chico saying she's been looking for him, Chico has a restored line about how she should have come looking for him last night.

During the letter-dictating scene, there's a bit where Groucho is dictating and says "Elise--no, scratch that" and Zeppo replies "You want me to scratch Elise?" Groucho has a reply, but I've already forgotten it. Later in the scene, Zeppo is reading back the letter and reads out "Hungadunga, Hungadunga, Hungadunga, Hungadunga and McCormack. Scratch Elise." Groucho snaps, "Now you've got McCormack scratching Elise!" and there's a little more back and forth.

In the scene where Margaret Irving tries to get the painting back from Harpo and he keeps handing her newspapers, there's a restored bit where she says to him "You know what I want!" and Harpo gives a naughty smile. When they start chasing each other around shortly thereafter, he smacks her on the behind with one of the papers.

Image quality is once again a massive improvement over what was released on DVD, with the almost non-stop scratches and dirt gone. It looks great.

As for Horse Feathers, Mr. Teetzel had this to say:

Not much to say about the last of the 4K Marx Brothers restorations, Horse Feathers. Sadly, the scene where the boys visit Thelma Todd is still peppered with censor cuts. It's another good-looking job overall. There are a handful of scenes where there is some bad jitter in the source element that has not been quite eliminated. Barring a better source element turning up, it's hard to imagine the film looking much better than this.

Robert Weide, producer of "The Marx Brothers in A Nutshell", saw the LA premiere and says the film is now about 80% pristine, with the old dupey reels and muffled audio still accounting for the rest...

Not much to say about the last of the 4K Marx Brothers restorations, Horse Feathers. Sadly, the scene where the boys visit Thelma Todd is still peppered with censor cuts. It's another good-looking job overall. There are a handful of scenes where there is some bad jitter in the source element that has not been quite eliminated. Barring a better source element turning up, it's hard to imagine the film looking much better than this.

Looks like a job for... CGI.

I ACTUALLY believe that one could use computer generated imagery to make up for missing frames in many old films. After all, Robert Wise did for his original Star Trek movie, and I've seen it—looks pretty good! Especially interesting is the scene where you SEE the crew walk out on the "honycome walkway...supplied by V'ger"... even the the actors were not recalled for the far shot... (heh)...

Now I realize we're stepping into disturbing territority when it comes to restorations. I mean, you can fix a broken pot from a Egyptian tomb, but... if you only have a little shard and you MAKE the rest of the pot, say, 90% of it, on your 21st Century potter's wheel.... how much has it been "restored" versus, rather, having been made anew, and you are no longer looking at the original artifact.

Well, in some cases, I wouldn't care. For instance, the "loading the rocket" scene in the restored hand-colored "Trip to the Moon" really looks like a black-and-white film all colored in. Take a look at what they had to work with and I don't see how they could possibly have restored the original. But... I do NOT care! I prefer that scene over the opening scene with all the flicker and jumping around that drives me crazy.

So I say... DO IT. If it can look truly realistic, some day, some one, restore Horsefeathers with... CGI characters!

Hello. Not to beat a dead horse(feathers) but for what it's worth, I can tell you with great certainty that an uncut print of the movie existed as late as 1973-74. That was my senior year in high school and also the time the Marxes were enjoying a minor resurgence on college campuses nationwide. My friends and I were heavily into anything Marx and knew all about the missing bits in Horse Feathers.When a local theater announced a triple feature of Monkey Business,Horse Feathers and Duck Soup we were first on line. When Connie Baileys apartment scene played through without a hitch we were in awe. We knew exactly what we had just seen and we talked about it for weeks, wondering why this print was never used on TV.I don't know if it was 35 or 16mm but it was complete.This was on Long Island NY.

rondohatton wrote:Hello. Not to beat a dead horse(feathers) but for what it's worth, I can tell you with great certainty that an uncut print of the movie existed as late as 1973-74. That was my senior year in high school and also the time the Marxes were enjoying a minor resurgence on college campuses nationwide. My friends and I were heavily into anything Marx and knew all about the missing bits in Horse Feathers.When a local theater announced a triple feature of Monkey Business,Horse Feathers and Duck Soup we were first on line. When Connie Baileys apartment scene played through without a hitch we were in awe. We knew exactly what we had just seen and we talked about it for weeks, wondering why this print was never used on TV.I don't know if it was 35 or 16mm but it was complete.This was on Long Island NY.

-Mike

Mike --

Look at my post of 4/10/16 on this thread -- I saw it too, also in NY, also at that exact time, and the friend I went with then brought it up recently as well (unprompted).

A well-known Marx brothers expert -- a friend of a friend -- was told of this around ten years ago and said I was a liar.

Since this site discourages obscenity, I will withhold my opinion of him.

BTW, did you see it at the Mini Cinema in Uniondale? I used to go there sometimes. (But I saw the print of "Horsefeathers" in Manhattan.)

A little more detail on that complete HORSE FEATHERS print reportedly shown in the seventies in NYC (I heard at the QUAD).....

It was allegedly Harpo's print, was seen and remembered as complete by multiple people, and reportedly was NEVER returned to the family.

It is my theory that this print survives in someone's collection, possibly acquired by whomever stole it, and that the owner is likely unaware they have complete print. Could have changed hands multiple times in the last 40+ years.

At this late date it would take any collector who has a 35mm print of HORSE FEATHERS (hopefully that reduces the potential owners) to run it and check this scene.

Not much to say about the last of the 4K Marx Brothers restorations, Horse Feathers. Sadly, the scene where the boys visit Thelma Todd is still peppered with censor cuts. It's another good-looking job overall. There are a handful of scenes where there is some bad jitter in the source element that has not been quite eliminated. Barring a better source element turning up, it's hard to imagine the film looking much better than this.

Looks like a job for... CGI.

I ACTUALLY believe that one could use computer generated imagery to make up for missing frames in many old films. After all, Robert Wise did for his original Star Trek movie, and I've seen it—looks pretty good! Especially interesting is the scene where you SEE the crew walk out on the "honycome walkway...supplied by V'ger"... even the the actors were not recalled for the far shot... (heh)...

Now I realize we're stepping into disturbing territority when it comes to restorations. I mean, you can fix a broken pot from a Egyptian tomb, but... if you only have a little shard and you MAKE the rest of the pot, say, 90% of it, on your 21st Century potter's wheel.... how much has it been "restored" versus, rather, having been made anew, and you are no longer looking at the original artifact.

Well, in some cases, I wouldn't care. For instance, the "loading the rocket" scene in the restored hand-colored "Trip to the Moon" really looks like a black-and-white film all colored in. Take a look at what they had to work with and I don't see how they could possibly have restored the original. But... I do NOT care! I prefer that scene over the opening scene with all the flicker and jumping around that drives me crazy.

So I say... DO IT. If it can look truly realistic, some day, some one, restore Horsefeathers with... CGI characters!

Ha ha! I bet some of you are spitting at your computer screen at me![/quote]

Note that Robert WIse made a big deal out of restoring STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE using only what he could have used back in 1979 if he hadn't run out of time.

vitaphone wrote:A little more detail on that complete HORSE FEATHERS print reportedly shown in the seventies in NYC (I heard at the QUAD).....

It was allegedly Harpo's print, was seen and remembered as complete by multiple people, and reportedly was NEVER returned to the family.

It is my theory that this print survives in someone's collection, possibly acquired by whomever stole it, and that the owner is likely unaware they have complete print. Could have changed hands multiple times in the last 40+ years.

At this late date it would take any collector who has a 35mm print of HORSE FEATHERS (hopefully that reduces the potential owners) to run it and check this scene.

One part of this mystery that puzzles me is a local TV station running a 35mm print and possibly a nitrate. Most local stations only had 16mm capabilities. Was the print a 16mm?

Hi Joe. The print I was referring to was 35mm and had nothing to do with a 16 mm television print. Anything on TV would have been the cut 16mm print and would still be missing the scenes discussed. have never heard of television stations (local at least) ever running 35mm, much less nitrate.

vitaphone wrote:Hi Joe. The print I was referring to was 35mm and had nothing to do with a 16 mm television print. Anything on TV would have been the cut 16mm print and would still be missing the scenes discussed. have never heard of television stations (local at least) ever running 35mm, much less nitrate.

Somehow I missed the part about it being shown in a theatre and somehow got the idea is was shown on local TV. My bad.

boblipton wrote:Blaclbird, do you mean that Mr. Wise made his ponderous Star Trek: The Motionless Picture even slower?

Bob

Not at all. Much of the film was actually tightened up. A lot of the annoying alarm sounds and computer bridge voices were eliminated from the soundtrack, and amusingly enough some of William Shatner's most overacted bits were also cut out. Now, if they really wanted to put CGI to good use, I wish they would superimpose another actor over that child-molesting maggot Stephen Collins.

boblipton wrote:Blaclbird, do you mean that Mr. Wise made his ponderous Star Trek: The Motionless Picture even slower?Bob

Much of the film was actually tightened up. A lot of the annoying alarm sounds and computer bridge voices were eliminated from the soundtrack, and amusingly enough some of William Shatner's most overacted bits were also cut out. Now, if they really wanted to put CGI to good use, I wish they would superimpose another actor over that child-molesting maggot Stephen Collins.

(Well, we didn't know about Collins at the time - do we replace wife-murderer Robert Blake in his films, too?)

Beyond that, I agree that the film is slightly better in the Director's Edition. But the Roddenberry-amended script is still weak. And the whole tone is off; I hold Roddenberry and Wise both responsible there. There are "Making Of" tales, that the cast tried to put back some of the warmth and humor of the original series on-set, but we turned down.

The whole thing shoots for the solemnity of "2001", which is just wrong for the piece.

boblipton wrote:Blaclbird, do you mean that Mr. Wise made his ponderous Star Trek: The Motionless Picture even slower?Bob

Much of the film was actually tightened up. A lot of the annoying alarm sounds and computer bridge voices were eliminated from the soundtrack, and amusingly enough some of William Shatner's most overacted bits were also cut out. Now, if they really wanted to put CGI to good use, I wish they would superimpose another actor over that child-molesting maggot Stephen Collins.

(Well, we didn't know about Collins at the time - do we replace wife-murderer Robert Blake in his films, too?)

Beyond that, I agree that the film is slightly better in the Director's Edition. But the Roddenberry-amended script is still weak. And the whole tone is off; I hold Roddenberry and Wise both responsible there. There are "Making Of" tales, that the cast tried to put back some of the warmth and humor of the original series on-set, but we turned down.

The whole thing shoots for the solemnity of "2001", which is just wrong for the piece.

-Craig

(Who was sorely letdown at the Paramount in NY, first-run.)

Roddenberry was a kook and a fraud. The movie doesn't even manage the solemnity of "2010." Of course, any version of the film is simply blown out of the water by WRATH OF KHAN anyway, but back to the Marx Brothers... I forget if I've mentioned before, just to note, the DVD release of THE BIG STORE had as an extra the soundtrack of a lost number sung by Tony Martin, for those so inclined.

My Horsefeathers recollection is less definitive than some others above, but it was the first Marx Brothers movie I ever saw in a theatre. I was 16 (so the year was 1974) and living in Oklahoma City. There was a tiny revival house called the Mini-Mall Theatre (Strip Mall Theatre would've been more apt), long since closed, way across town and they showed Horse Feathers and Monkey Business. My recently acquired driver's license allowed me to be in attendance.

That was a big night in my life, as it made a confirmed-for-life Marx Brothers fan of me.

Anyway, I couldn't swear in court that the print I saw screened at that tiny bijou was fullly intact, but the prints currently shown are so choppy I cannot imagine I wouldn't have noticed it (and been chagrined by it) that night. When I finally saw a choppy print some years later, I was very much aware of the huge drop in quality.

So when some say they saw intact prints in the '70s, I'm inclined to believe them, because I think I did too.

As for thee damage being censor-related, I've never bought that. It's too choppy and ineptly executed -- I think it was poor care and stewardship, not censorship, that led to the current state of HF. And if there is a collector out there with an intact print of it that is not being shared for restoration purposes, shame on him or her.

"A little more detail on that complete HORSE FEATHERS print reportedly shown in the seventies in NYC (I heard at the QUAD).....

It was allegedly Harpo's print, was seen and remembered as complete by multiple people, and reportedly was NEVER returned to the family."

Here's a little more detail. No, it wasn't at the Quad, it was at a defunct theater on First Avenue at 62nd or so called "The First Avenue Screening Room" (later a porn theater, still later a live improv theater, now a store of some kind). It was part of a series celebrating the publication of "The Marx Bros. Scrapbook": a different double feature every week for six weeks. They ran all the features except for ANIMAL CRACKERS, which was unavailable until the following summer. There were some rather odd pairings -- I remember ROOM SERVICE and GO WEST being shown together (odd because it's two minor movies rather than a major and a minor one). And yes, I remember hearing that they were Harpo's prints (I was an adolescent at the time, but I did hear that rumor), though that execrable cretin Marx expert did follow up on that and found that that was evidently not the case.

The other memorable print in that series (I went every week) was A NIGHT AT THE OPERA. The reason it was memorable was that it was splicy, and a few seconds of footage were missing at the end of the 'stateroom scene' -- we never saw Margaret Dumont open the door and everyone pouring out into the hallway. You never heard a whole audience groan like that in your life.

So if someone comes across an old 35 of A NIGHT AT THE OPERA with that splice, start asking questions about HORSEFEATHERS.

One lead that may or may not have been pursued was Richard J. Anobile... he might know something, I think.

Supposedly the company that put out the new restorations tried like hell to find a complete print, but came up empty-handed.