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> On 13/08/2017 9:05 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
> On 13 August 2017 at 08:48, Bruce Kellett <bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>> On 13/08/2017 12:04 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 at 4:52 pm, Bruce Kellett <
>> <bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>bhkell...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/08/2017 1:42 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> First person experience is individual and private. The third person
>>> point of view is the view of an external observer. Suppose person A is
>>> observed laughing by person B. The behaviour - the laughing - can be
>>> observed by anyone; this is the third person point of view. Person A might
>>> be experiencing happiness or amusement; this is the first person point of
>>> view and only person A himself has it. Finally, person B has visual and
>>> auditory experiences and knowledge of the outside world (there are laughing
>>> entities in it), and this is again from the first person point of view. I
>>> would say that knowledge is a type of experience, and therefore always
>>> first person and private; information is that which is third person
>>> communicable. But perhaps this last point is a matter of semantics.
>>>
>>>
>>> If your knowledge is gained from someone else, it is necessarily
>>> communicable information, and thus third person. First person is your
>>> personal experience, which is not communicable. However, knowledge gained
>>> by experience is communicable, and thus third person. Otherwise, all that
>>> you say above is mere logic chopping.
>>>
>>
>> Most first person experiences are based on third person information,
>> namely sensory data.
>>
>>
>> How is sensory data 'third person information'? That would make
>> everything 3p, and you have eliminated the first person POV. If I
>> experience the pleasure of sitting in the sun on a fine spring morning,
>> that is surely a first person experience, and entirely sensory in origin.
>>
>> Even a priori knowledge, such mathematical knowledge, starts with
>> learning about the subjectvfrom outside sources.
>>
>> Returning to the point, why were you claiming that the subject on a
>> duplication experiment cannot have first person knowledge of duplication?
>> That would mean no-one could ever have first person knowledge of anything.
>>
>>
>> If you go into the duplicating machine without being told what it is,
>> then you are duplicated and come out in Moscow, you will know that you have
>> been transported from Helsinki, but how can you know anything about any
>> duplicates? As far as you know -- not knowing the protocol -- you could
>> simply have been rendered unconscious and flown to Moscow. How does 1p
>> experience tell the difference?
>>
>> This is why I think some 3p is being mixed in with 1p experiences in this
>> duplication protocol. The subject only knows the protocol by being told
>> about it. How does he know he is not being lied to?
>>
>
> This is the case with any experience whatsoever: you come to a conclusion
> about what has happened based on your observations and deductions, but you
> could be mistaken.
>
>
> That would appear to put a large hole in Bruno's distinction between
> quanta and qualia. The sensation of the sun on my face is veridicial -- I
> might be mistaken about it being the sun, but the sensation is
> incontrovertible. But things that I am told about are in a different
> category -- I have no immediate incontrovertible experience associated with
> them. I am aware of words being spoken, but I am not immediately aware of
> their veracity.
>
You feel the Sun on your face, see the Sun in the sky and make deductions
about a hot, bright object in space. It is an analogous process when you
hear human speech and come to conclusions about the world.
> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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