The Luggage (gender) - it's made of wood so the bird analogy doesn't hold water too well, except that the females (especially the predators) are generally noticeably bigger than the male...
The 'seedlings' of necessity are generally found closer to the female tree (we have female and male holly trees so why not sapient pearwood as separate genders are generally indicative of higher development?). The Luggage is a bloke

Infanticide/Abortion - infanticide I think is effectively postponed abortion and very often psychotic in nature. Talking of nature, a form of abortion is actually a natural event in some species, including some rodents and some of the smaller antelopes, in that the females can 'suspend' their pregnancies if cirumstances are not good (if there's a drought etc) and then continue the pregnancy when circs improve. I think some of them can even 'absorb' the foetus which is then effectively destroyed, allowing the female to conceive again at a later date. The latter may perhaps be part of the same process when the pregnancy is suspended for too long perhaps.

Interesting case studies there Tina and I was reminded of a quite upsetting case back in the 1990's with a British girl who got arrested coming back to the UK when she went through security at the airport and was found to be carrying her drowned very premature baby clutched inside her coat. She was immediately jailed. About a year later the prison psychologists managed to get her released into the custody of a British psychologist and inevitably when they came back there was an interview with both of them on TV.
This was one of those situations where the girl was in complete denial about her pregnancy and didn't look it at all really. She was on a weekend trip to NYC with her boyfriend (who also had no idea about her being pregnant), felt 'unwell' had a bath and delivered the poor child there. She was terrified and thought the baby was dead - can you imagine the shock? - and so she not surprisingly panicked and left the baby in the bath where it of course drowned. They were going home the day after so she hid the dead child in their hotel room, but then decided to take it with her - this all made sense to her, which is why it was so obvious that she had not acted deliberately or 'in her right mind'.

Lots of 'what ifs' in this area, but in the UK, for most women having the option of abortion is I think a good thing overall and there is even a case for late abortion if the pregnancy is detected late (being wildly erratic in that deparment, I never knew I was pregnant because my baby had died before I had a test, which was negative, so I never knew she was there at all besides feeling 'icky', so 'not knowing' you're pregnant is certainly more than possible in the earlier stages at least) and some women just do not get the symptoms or the hormones so when the pregnancy is 'discovered' it can be a big shock. I'm not so in favour of 'elective' abortion where the mother is initially happy to be pregnant but then discovers the baby's deformed or even the 'wrong' sex in some cultures - but that's again better in some ways than going to term and then deciding whether to keep it or 'dump' it in some way, have it taken into care, adopted, whatever.

No good clearcut options with this but I agree with Tina, that being 'made' to keep someone you didn't want at all is futile in most respects and in a way almost begs for rejection of the child in some other way, future abuse or even the far worse situation where some women turn into serial baby-killers or are literally driven mad from keeping 'secrets' even from themselves. In this country, we've gone through the abort/pro-life arguments and out the other side to where where we now have 'benefit babies' as the most lucrative and 'ethical' alternative to abortion - some women decide not to use contraception, not to abort and not to give their child up for adoption, because a baby will get you quite nice assisted or free accommodation, quite generous state allowances and mostly allow you to avoid employment for several years because these girls (not being that stupid) generally decide to make a sort of career of being pregnant at every opportunity, whether or not the father(s) decides to stick around. Lucky we're a caring society...

Sorry Dotsie - this is a subject that always strikes a bitter note with me and as they say, better out than in

"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw

Jan Van Quirm wrote: I'm not so in favour of 'elective' abortion where the mother is initially happy to be pregnant but then discovers the baby's deformed

But how can you judge here? I know of a woman who gave birth to an anencephalic baby (no brain - in the days before keeping mothers informed), how could you wish that on anyone? Wouldn't it have been better to abort early in the pregnancy, rather than deliver a baby you know won't even live for a week? The decision to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason must be a terrible one, I'm glad I never had to make that choice, and I have every sympathy for those that do

Sorry too Jan, but an emotive subject for lots I think.

What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!

Jan Van Quirm wrote: I'm not so in favour of 'elective' abortion where the mother is initially happy to be pregnant but then discovers the baby's deformed

But how can you judge here? I know of a woman who gave birth to an anencephalic baby (no brain - in the days before keeping mothers informed), how could you wish that on anyone? Wouldn't it have been better to abort early in the pregnancy, rather than deliver a baby you know won't even live for a week? The decision to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason must be a terrible one, I'm glad I never had to make that choice, and I have every sympathy for those that do

Sorry too Jan, but an emotive subject for lots I think.

Certainly is which is why there has to be choices that are humane for both mother and baby . Late abortions are just incredibly distressing for all concerned and in cases like you mentioned, where there is absolutely no chance of survival or there are appalling disabilities where the quality of life is neglible then of course a termination is far, far more rational and kinder than trying to deliver a baby you know will die immediately, or might as well be dead if it can survive. That's possibly the situation I would have been a few month's down the line had my baby survived long enough to be detected, as 'spontaneous abortions' as early miscarriages are so callously termed, are exactly that - nature preventing the continuation of a foetus that will not make it.

I was more meaning late abortion is 'wrong' if there was a chance of a good amount of quality of life with a more 'manageable' physical incapacity, like Down's Syndrome for instance, or definitely for the more frivolous, cosmetic reasoning potentially being allowed these days. There's so much to take into account, even before insemination now we have IVF, where couples might select only males (or only females) which is terrible when it's basically on a whim, but that's a huge deal in some cultures. Even then there are arguments for foetal selection with one sex perhaps having a genetic advantage in aiding a sick sibling perhaps. The whole thing's fraught with too fine interpretation and odious compromises, but 'herding' prospective parents ('cos men are just as ambivalent or polarised on this subject) out of one option altogether is, I think quite wrong. I don't think I could ever have had a deliberate abortion myself, but I think/know that the option has to be there to stop even worse scenarios playing out.

Anyway - sorry for prolonging this. Am done now

And yay Bikkit! We need to find out more about your theory hon!

"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw

Pooh was wondering whether it was male or female luggage who were in the habit of running out on their offspring/seedlings and Tina ran with it and passed to me I think we sort of got there that the Luggage is a bloke (well I did anyway...)

Although it would be interesting to find out about how sapient pearwood reproduces, but I guess that's pushing it too much

"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not.” George Bernard Shaw

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Pooh was wondering whether it was male or female luggage who were in the habit of running out on their offspring/seedlings and Tina ran with it and passed to me I think we sort of got there that the Luggage is a bloke (well I did anyway...)

Although it would be interesting to find out about how sapient pearwood reproduces, but I guess that's pushing it too much

Don't blame me! It was BB Shrooms wot done it! He said the luggage was female.

"Disliking Carrot would be like kicking a puppy.""You kicked a puppy," Lobsang said accusingly.

Jan Van Quirm wrote:Pooh was wondering whether it was male or female luggage who were in the habit of running out on their offspring/seedlings and Tina ran with it and passed to me I think we sort of got there that the Luggage is a bloke (well I did anyway...)

Although it would be interesting to find out about how sapient pearwood reproduces, but I guess that's pushing it too much

Don't blame me! It was BB Shrooms wot done it! He said the luggage was female.

We Jolly Well Will Find a Reason to Blame It On YOU, Pooh, you are a naughty naughty man and now that I am past the "spanking" stage, sorry to say, We Are All Tappin' the Toes, Pursin' the Lips and Raising one Eyebrow at you!!!!! And, if it was Not for this offence, then you HAVE DONE SOMETHING WE HAVE MISSED AND DESERVE IT ANYWAY!!! :huggles and kiss to make it better...: But we will be watching you...