Wednesday, June 29, 2011

Terry Melcher (February 8, 1942 – November 19, 2004)American Musician and Record Producer. Melcher was born Terry Jorden in New York City to trombonist Al Jorden and his wife, singer/actress Doris Day. Day was only 17 years old, when she gave birth to Terry. Before Terry's birth, Day was planning to leave the abusive and violent Al Jorden. Jorden was outraged when he found out about her pregnancy, and demanded Day get an abortion. Doris refused, and in turn, Jorden physically abused Day throughout her entire pregnancy. Shortly after Terry's birth, Day filed for divorce, left Terry with her mother in Ohio, and went back to touring with big band leader Les Brown. After the divorce, Terry's father failed to visit his son on a regular basis, and had little presence in his life. Al Jorden would ultimately commit suicide years later.Doris' career led her to Hollywood where she appeared on local radio shows. After marrying and divorcing her second husband, saxophonist George Weidler, Day met and married Martin Melcher. Martin would become Doris' manager and go on to produce many of her movies. Although Terry and Martin disliked each other intensely, Martin adopted Terry, giving the boy his surname. After Martin's death in 1968, it was discovered that he had mismanaged or embezzled $20 million of Doris Day's money. In the early 1960s, Terry Melcher and Bruce Johnston formed the vocal duet Bruce & Terry. The duo had hits like "Custom Machine" and "Summer Means Fun". Melcher and Johnston also created another band together, The Rip Chords, that had a Top 10 hit "Hey, Little Cobra". Later, Bruce Johnston would join The Beach Boys. By the mid-60s, Melcher had joined the staff of Columbia Records, and went on to work with The Byrds. He produced their song, "Turn, Turn, Turn", and helped them to produce their remake of Bob Dylan's, "Mr. Tambourine Man". Due to conflicts with the band, Melcher was replaced. He later worked with Paul Revere and the Raiders, Wayne Newton, Pat Boone, Glen Campbell,and The Mamas & Papas. Melcher was instrumental in signing another near-legendary L.A. band, the Rising Sons led by Taj Mahal and Ry Cooder. Melcher also performed on the Beach Boys album Pet Sounds, as a background vocalist, and introduced Brian Wilson to Van Dyke Parks in February of 1966, beginning their partnership on the ill-fated SMiLE project. He was also a board member of the Monterey Pop Foundation and a producer of the Monterey Pop Festival in 1967. In 1968, Beach Boy Dennis Wilson introduced Melcher to ex-con and aspiring musician Charles Manson. Wilson expressed interest in Manson's music, and even recorded two of Manson's songs with The Beach Boys. Manson eventually auditioned for Melcher, but Melcher declined to sign him. He served as the executive producer on his mother's CBS series, The Doris Day Show. He later recorded two solo albums titled, Terry Melcher and Royal Flush. In 1985, Terry co-produced the cable show, Doris Day's Best Friends, and worked as the director and vice president of the Doris Day Animal Foundation. He and his mother, to whom he remained extremely close throughout his life, also co-owned the Cypress Inn, a small hotel in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California. In 1988, Melcher earned a Golden Globe nomination for co-writing the song "Kokomo" with The Beach Boys. The song was featured in the 1988 Tom Cruise film, Cocktail, and rose to number one on the pop charts that year. On November 19, 2004, Terry Melcher died at his home after a long battle with melanoma. He was 62 years old.http://www.biographicon.com/view/1k518

139 comments:

While Terry Melcher and Candace Bergen were living at Cielo Drive, she says that one morning she went in the kitchen and there was a hairy little man sitting at the kitchen table. She says she had an instant dislike to him, and quickly left the kitchen.

Also she says that in December 1968Terry abruptly informed her that they needed to move quickly from Cielo Drive to his mother's beach house. When she questioned why, he was vague and said something about finances. She thought that was strange because she didn't know of any financial problems.

After the murders and the killers were revealed, she says she yelled at him and said "THAT COULD HAVE BEEN ME!!"

Melcher was so terrified of Charlie that when he was called as a prosecution witness, he had to be medicated, and he refused to look at Charlie.

Terry & Candace later broke up, but I have never found out why. Manson??

I was never into the hard stuff like Iron Butterfly, Frank Zappa, etc. Except, I DID like Led Zeppelin. I had an older brother and sister who listened to all that hard stuff, and I guess I got sick of it. HA HA.

I saw the Beach Boys at an outdoor "general admisson" concert... (ya know... slang for... stand, where-ever you can find a spot).It was at a huge air force base around... goodness, 1990ish.

It was the hottest day of the year... and the red cross showed-up, and was handing-out sun-screen, and water.Seriously... it was like 110 degrees, or some shit.My brother and I, were literally wearing our t-shirts on our heads like turbins... just like Clem! LOLOL

Eh... the music wasn't phenomenal... they were already pretty old by then... but, it was a GREAT party!Half bare-ass girls on shoulders... and coolers everywhere... if you know what I mean.

I remember that (kinda dorky if you ask me) John Stamos came on-stage at one point, and played drums, or something.

Yes... Pet Sounds is a milestone record.Kokomo... LMAO... not so much.Although, any song that gets the girls swaying, has some merit, I guess (rolling my eyes). LOLI honestly can't remember if kokomo was released before the concert I attended.It's all kind-of a blur. LOL

I do remember vividly, stopping for lobster with my brother, on the way back... and being completely drained... and burn't to a crisp, when I got home!

"Melcher later worked with Paul Revere and the Raiders, Wayne Newton, Pat Boone, Glen Campbell, and The Mamas & Papas. Melcher was instrumental in signing another near-legendary L.A. band, the Rising Sons led by Taj Mahal and Ry Cooder. Melcher also performed on the Beach Boys album Pet Sounds, as a background vocalist, and introduced Brian Wilson to Van Dyke Parks in February of 1966, beginning their partnership on the ill-fated SMiLE project. He was also a board member of the Monterey Pop Foundation and a producer of the Monterey Pop Festival in 1967"

Boy, he was a busy guy. I LOVED the Byrds and the Mamas & Papas. :)

I wonder if Charlie really poked Mama Cass? Well, we all know Roman got the good-looking one, Michelle. And I'm not sure who was uglier, Roman or Charlie. HA HA.

The original article was a bit longer, and I removed a few parts, which I questioned the accuracy of.

One section (which I questioned being accurate)stated:

"There was still talk of a documentary being made about Manson's music, but Melcher abandoned the project after witnessing his subject becoming embroiled in a terrifying fight with a drunken stuntman at Spahn Ranch".

Can anyone confirm this paragragh as being true, false, or otherwise fabricated?

The original article was a bit longer, and I removed a few parts, which I questioned the accuracy of.

One section (which I questioned being accurate)stated:

"There was still talk of a documentary being made about Manson's music, but Melcher abandoned the project after witnessing his subject becoming embroiled in a terrifying fight with a drunken stuntman at Spahn Ranch".

Can anyone confirm this paragragh as being true, false, or otherwise fabricated?

Truth be told... I had never read that before.

Gilda Radner replies

That's the most interesting part Lynyrd. Charlie could easily go off on drunks. I think he'd flashback to his childhood where he saw momma drunk. Pity he never realized that LSD made him worse than his drunken mom.

Melcher witnessed a flashback. Melcher saw Charlie's ingrained rage towards his mother who abandoned him. Charlie HATED drunks. Seeing a drunk to Charlie was like a PTSD Viet Nam vet hearing a car backfire. Melcher led a lovely sheltered lifestyle. Charlie was too much for his upbringing.

mr.p-theres something we can agree on manson must have scared the hell out of a little rich kid like melcher does anyone know if melcher recordedthe september 11th 1967 sessons that have popped up in the last 10-15 years or were they done by the beach boys producer steven despar i think his name was. also does anyone know where i can download a complete clean version of them? i have the summer of hate cd that i think is complete but theres got to be a better sounding version out there somewhere. one more question for anyone who knows-are these the tapes that dennis wilson told bugliosi he destoyed?

I was never a big Beach Boy fan, but several years ago I saw a show of theirs on PBS, black and white live concert show someplace...and they were fantastic! Ever since then I have alot of respect for them. Brian Wilson, although an emotional basketcase, was brilliant!

That was kind of a big thing about Kokomo, it was their only hit not composed with Brian, nor did he perform on the recording so I think, and I am pretty sure it's their biggest hit ever. Melcher made some serious coin on that one, and the other guys finally had something to hold over Brian's head.

Lurch said:>>>>"As far as the Beach Boys go......they should have quit after Pet Sounds!"<<<<

There's some truth to that statement.I wasn't a big Beach Boys fan, but I always loved the "Endless Summer" double album.

It was a compilation album, of all the hits they had prior to Pet Sounds.It came-out in 74, but was basically, all their hits from 1962-65.If you had just the "Endless Summer" and "Pet Sounds" albums alone (I'd say) you were pretty well outfitted "Beach Boy-wise". LOL

Endless Summer:"A collection of hits from the pre-Pet Sounds period, Endless Summer is notable for reclaiming the band's commercial glory at home, spending 155 weeks on the Billboard album chart, and peaking at #1, selling over three million copies".

i'd always heard that smile was one of the great lost albums of all time so when i saw it pop up on a torrent site a few years back i said lets check this out. gotta say i was pretty underwhelmedmostly bits and pieces of songs some beautiful harmonies here and there. the 15 minute version of good vibrations is pretty cool and heroes and villians ain't too bad either. i heard capitol records is goingto do a smile sessions boxset this year.

I think Kokomo was also written by John Phillips of the Mamas and the Papas...looking it up, only Mike love of the Beach Boys was involved- the other person involved was Scott McKenzie (If you're going to San Francisco....)

Beach Boys never really did anything for me either...guess I really didn't listen to them a lot. And growing up, I heard about John Stamos playing with them - so they lost a lot of credibility with me. Just turned me off...maybe I should give them another try. Pet Sounds is the one everyone seems to agree is the best - guess I will start with that one

Lynn said:>>>>"I had a friend in high school whose Mom had recently divorced and reconnected with an old flame...they would go out and drink Pina Coladas in a bar with mirrored walls and sing the Bogey and Bacall song to each other" <<<<

Awww.See... that's what that song is for!!!You just described the perfect setting!!!

Lynyrd - AAARRRGGGHHHH! NOOO!!! NEVER! Lynn just mentioned pina coladas and I start humming some song I don't remember too well...if you like pina coladas and getting caught in the rain...that is all I think I know of that song

Yep, the Pina Colada song sucks. When John Stamos came on board, most of the heart and soul of the Beach Boys were already gone (all of the Wilson Brothers) so that left creepy Mike Love and company. I have heard that Al Jardine does not tour with them anymore either so it's Bruce Johnston and Mike Love

While Terry Melcher and Candace Bergen were living at Cielo Drive, she says that one morning she went in the kitchen and there was a hairy little man sitting at the kitchen table. She says she had an instant dislike to him, and quickly left the kitchen.

That would creep me out. I would be getting the Lysol out and spraying every where!

Mary said:>>>>"Katie - did you see the Casey Anthony trial today? How about that poor sap from the galley who flipped off the prosecuter and got 6 days in jail for contempt of court...gotta freakin love that judge!"<<<<

Katie hopped a plane this morning, to visit family.She won't be back online until tomorrow (friday) night.

MattP asked:>>>>"does anyone know if melcher recordedthe september 11th 1967 sessons that have popped up in the last 10-15 years or were they done by the beach boys producer steven despar i think his name was".<<<<

MP... I've been trying to answer that question myself, for some time.If anyone has the definitive answer... please come forward.MattP... I'm 85% sure, the session was recorded by Gary Stromberg.----------------------------------------------------What I do know:

(According to Sanders, bottom page 60)..."Sometime that summer of '68, Manson recorded his songs at the recording studio located in the home of Beach Boy, Brian Wilson... Dennis Wilson's brother and the producer of their albums.(Blah, blah, blah... to page 61):

"Stephem Despar was an electronics whiz who built the Beach Boys' fully equipped studio in Brian Wilson's house. He was listed as the producer the album 20/20, which the Beach Boys were recording the summer and fall of 1968.Despar was the engineer stuck with recording Manson, and was also witness to Manson's knife nuttery"...

No mention of September 1967... he's talking about 1968.--------------------------------------------------------However... earlier in the book (on page 20), we get into Stromberg and fall 1967.

There was a man at Universal Studios in Los Angeles named Gary Stromberg, who was a close friend of Manson's jail pal, Phil Kaufman. Through Kaufman, Manson met or contacted Stromberg and a routine was arranged whereby Manson would record a session or so, for Universal Records, the company evidently agreeing to pay for the recording costs".

Blah. blah, blah... (Middle of page 21):"The Family stopped for a couple days in Santa Barbara, then drove to Universal Studios in North Hollywood for a recording session. Manson recorded only one three-hour session for Universal Records, then hit the breeze, off to the Mojave Desert though Mr. Stromberg was eager to record more sessions with this barefoot little minstrel".

Technically Matt... Sanders is talking (sorta in-and-out) about November of '67, not september of '67...on those pages... so, he never actually states 9-11-67 specifically... so that's my 15% loophole. LOLBut, that's the closest documented recording session (to 9/67), I've ever personally found... in regards to answering that question.

My answer would be Gary Stromberg... especially, if you can prove that the album was recorded at Universal Studios.------------------------------------------------(Folks, this is a re-post. I had a few typos earlier, and it was driving me crazy... so, I made the corrections, LOL)

The 67 recording sesion was indeed Gary Stromberg, There have been several versions of this put out over the years. The most complete version is called "The Psychedelic Soul of Charles Manson". Not sure which version has the best sound quality though.

As far as the 68 recordings by Steve Despar, nothing has come out to date. Dennis Wilson claims the tapes were destroyed cuz the vibes connected to them were just too weird, while others have claimed the tapes have been locked in a safety deposit box all these years.

As with most things connected to this case (music,movies,pics) your guess is as good as mine as far as what's real and what's rumor.

Check out mansonmusic.blogspot.com for the most complete selection of Manson's music.

I've heard a great many of Charlie's songs and none of them seem professional. He was a talented amateur who did not play the road circuit instead choosing to play amongst the Family where he never received audience feedback. It would be the same if a guy trained in his backyard for the 100 meter sprint and just shows up at the olympics and asks to be given a lane to run in.

I read a book about the Beatles once that said they had played on stage together for 10,000 hours. Their American tours covered cities over a 25,000 mile path.

Charlie just shows up at a record studio and thinks he will be put straight on the radio. And yet there are people who think Charlie is sane.

"Contrary to popular belief,The Rip Chords did sing on this song. Producers Terry Melcher and Bruce Johnston sang the lead vocal and backup parts respectively, but Phil Stewart, Rich Rotkin, Arnie Marcus, and Ernie Bringas did contribute to the back-up vocal parts. Marcus also played Bongo parts on many Rip Chords recordings. Melcher was the son of actress Doris Day; he went on to produce albums for The Byrds and Paul Revere And The Raiders. Johnston became a member of The Beach Boys. They persuaded Columbia Records to release this as by The Rip Chords to take advantage of the act's name recognition."

But according to Ernie Bringas, "HEY LITTLE COBRAIt was also during this critical period that Melcher and a young songwriter named Carol Conners collaborated on a song called Hey Little Cobra. Recognizing the song's potential, Melcher called for a RIP CHORDS recording session. Prior to this event, Melcher did not consider himself a vocal talent (although vocally he had already experimented somewhat at Columbia ). But as it turned out, his lead vocal on Hey Little Cobra was outstanding. He not only discovered his voice, but he also discovered he had a great “sound” (the equivalent in photography of being photogenic). So Melcher the producer, writer, and arranger, had also become Melcher the singer. It would not be an exaggeration to say that Terry Melcher was to the RIP CHORDS what Brian Wilson was to the BEACH BOYS. But unlike Brian, Terry was singing for a group of which he was not a member. As a consequence, he never received his well-deserved recognition as a vocalist (at least not in the public eye). The same is true for Bruce Johnston, who does the falsetto on Hey Little Cobra. Although Terry and Bruce alone appear on this recording, it was Terry’s lead vocal that gave this song its winning impetus (peaking at #4 nationally in early 1964)."

I would believe Ernie since he was in the band - but both sources do agree that Melcher took the vocal lead on the song.

Hi guys. Starship, I read those comments from Candace in her book Knock Wood. I've read excerpts from the book. I didn't buy it, because I wasn't interested in her WHOLE life, just with Terry. Check it out.

Mary, yes I saw that waiter dweeb from T.G.I. Friday's who thought he could flip off Jeff Ashton and make funny on TV got 6 days in the Orange County jail and a fine for $625.

That judge read him the riot act. In fact he made him feel about 3 inches tall, which he is.

I'll damn sure betcha he doesn't do anything like again that anytime soon!!

I love the HELL outta that judge!!!

Think about it....if Judge Older had enforced those rules in the Manson Case....hooo wahhhhh. There'd been a whole lotta blood lettin'. HA HA.

I've been out of touch with this trial the last two days being on the road, but I think final arguments are set for Sunday starting at 6am Eastern Time.

This case has been a roller coaster ride. Casey refuses to testify. Which is probably in her best interest because the jury already hates her, and if she opens her dirty little mouth, she will insert a foot as big as King Kong's.

“I have read that,” Bartlett said. He then apologized for his actions.

Perry found him guilty of direct criminal contempt, and sentenced him to six days in Orange County Jail. The judge also imposed a fine of $400 along with court costs of approximately $223. Bartlett has six months to pay the fees."

katie8753 said...Hi guys. Starship, I read those comments from Candace in her book Knock Wood. I've read excerpts from the book. I didn't buy it, because I wasn't interested in her WHOLE life, just with Terry. Check it out.

I always thought Bridge Over Melodramatic Waters was Simon and Shuster going a bit to far with their writing as if their vocals could overcome any amount of soap. No matter how talented you are you can go overboard. Ask john Lennon if he regretted saying the beatles were bigger than jesus.

But then it was john lennon who said, "who listens to lyrics anyhow". I know I didn't. I listened to the guitars.

Poirot said:>>>>"I've heard a great many of Charlie's songs and none of them seem professional. He was a talented amateur who did not play the road circuit instead choosing to play amongst the Family where he never received audience feedback. It would be the same if a guy trained in his backyard for the 100 meter sprint and just shows up at the olympics and asks to be given a lane to run in.

read a book about the Beatles once that said they had played on stage together for 10,000 hours. Their American tours covered cities over a 25,000 mile path.

Charlie just shows up at a record studio and thinks he will be put straight on the radio. And yet there are people who think Charlie is sane".<<<<

I've given my opinion on Manson's music many times, so this will come as a boring re-hash for many, but here goes...

In the 60's, Manson had a better than average voice.His guitar playing was a bit "un-polished".He got the chord changes down with his left hand quite handily... but "guitar-wise", his right hand is kinda "weak".His rhythms are a bit un-disciplined, and his meter/tempo varies.That's OK to be all over the place, when you're a solo performer... you have that luxury.But, if you wanna perform with an 8 piece band... it's not gonna work.Your right hand has to be steady like a clock.My music teacher used to say:"Tempo is the only element, every musician in the band shares at all times".(Unless you're playing Captain Beefheart music).

Bottom line... he was talented enough to be entertaining, but, performance wasn't his strong point.My music teacher once told me (and this is true):"If you wanna make money, you can't just be pretty good, you gotta be the best".Truer words were never spoken.In music, there's a million "pretty goods".It's like sports... you gotta be exceptional.

Having said that... Manson's big gift was songwriting ideas.He was a warehouse of thoughts, ideas, experiences and emotions.Many bands write 10 great songs... and then there's crickets in the studio..The well runs dry, and they're all left in a room (great performers), with no more ideas.Sometimes a "fresh ear" (as they say in the industry), is what you need.So they pay guys to come-in, and throw song ideas at them.Sometimes the lyrics come first... sometimes the music.Many, many guys have made a very good living, just feeding song ideas to other performers.Manson could have made a name for himself that way.Creativity, brainstorming, and rattling-off ideas and lyrics... that was his forte'.As for performing in-front of 10,000 people... I just don't see it.

You gotta wonder if Manson could even focus on one task, long enough, to complete a professional, two-hour, pre-planned, show, with 5-6 other musicians.I can see him playing only half of some songs... changing the set-list mid-concert without telling the rest of the band... and wrapping things-up early.Heck... given a 50-city tour... he'd probably only make it to 50% of the shows. LOL

Also... given the chance... would he really have the focus and dedication to "collaberate" with other musicians for an entire project, or projects?Recording an album can require months.Making it, as a completely solo act, is very difficult... and you still have to work with people.

He was pretty damn good in the 60's.As for now... I think it's like Gacy's paintings.There's interest, just because Gacy painted them... but, c'mon folks, let get real. LOL

That's my take on Manson's music... for what it's worth.

BTW... what happened to 8/9 baby?Seems she disappeared, as quickly as she arrived.

My point with Charlie's attempt at a recording contract was that he had not put in the work. He was like that at everything in his life. He always took shortcuts. I think Charlie thought the Beatles just walked in off the street and stepped into their fame and success by accident. If you wanted to be a professional recording artist in the 1960s then you needed to be playing on a stage 6 nights a week perfecting your music in front of a paying audience. You needed to be on the long hard road circuit putting in your dues. No matter how good or bad Charlie's talents were he still was just an amateur who walked into a studio off a dusty, run down horse ranch in the middle of nowhere. Most professional recording artists started in their high school band. The Beatles played onstage 6 nights a week for years before they got a contract. Charlie just shows up and says here I am, put me on the radio and hand me a million dollars. Charlie didn't even know that his style was more suited to Nashville than Hollywood. Charlie was in the wrong town sitting on his butt 7 days a week. Even Brooks and Paul worked years on stage together and made several attempts at getting a record deal. They didn't take shortcuts. They'd take penny ante gigs they could get at every watering hole in the desert.

The Beatles (and other groups) were "nobodies" for years, working their butts off in different countries, never dreaming they'd hit it as big as they did. They were good musicians, but some of their success is due to the fact that they were in the right place at the right time.

Charlie just thought up a few songs, knew a few chords and thought since he knew Wilson and Melcher that he'd hit a home run. He didn't put any effort into it. He wanted it all handed to him on a silver platter and when that didn't happen, he got really pissed off.

The music business was like everything else in Charlie's life. Everybody "owed" him something because he'd been given the shaft his whole life, in his opinion.

Melcher's mother, Doris Day travelled the road for years honing her vocal style with several bands. Doris was a dedicated singer who achieved great fame yet she worked hard everyday of her life even after she hit the bigtime. Doris Day wouldn't know a shortcut if she saw one. Melcher knew this and looking at Manson I doubt he saw any sort of dedication required to be a professional recording artist. There is even a well known confrontation twixt Melcher and Charlie where Melcher told Charlie flat out that at times that Charlie could disappoint the hell out of him. Charlie was basically a habitual screwup which i think is derived from his intense antisocial disfunctional disorders.

Mr. P., you're right, Doris worked hard for her success. It wasn't dropped in her lap by any means. In fact, without Doris' money & fame, I doubt that Terry would have made it as far as he did in the music industry.

Doris Tate also went to great lengths to present a pure and wholesome image to the public in everything she ever did.

I don't know if Doris ever met Charlie or knew of him in any way, but if so, I have a feeling that she was not too happy with Terry's association with riff raff. This wasn't something that she would approve of I'm sure.

I agree, I don't think Manson had quite what it takes, to be a truly "professional" recording and touring musican... in terms of talent, and performance skills/technique.He wasn't a "session" player.Session players can sit-in with anyone on a moments notice... and (like "Otis Day"), say "hit it"! LOLNo... Manson didn't have that kind of talent.

Having said that:I think you're under-estimating the time and effort required to master an instrument.Have you ever taken music lessons?Even the skills Manson has/had on guitar, surely required thousands of hours of practice.Buy a guitar tomorrow, and start-in.It will take you years to do what Manson does on guitar.I think you're being a bit too harsh.You make it sound like Manson picked-up a guitar, and auditioned the next week.

I agree, Manson was something of a dreamer, and his skills weren't quite music-industry polished.In sports... the nearest comparison would be a "walk-on tryout".So, we're essentially on the same page.But heck... he wasn't a complete slouch.I think you're taking your point, a little too far.He had some talent, and obviously invested considerable time practicing somewhere... if not on-stage.

The recording business is very competitve.Manson was indeed a long-shot... but if guys like Wilson/Stromberg/Melcher/Kaufman didn't think he had anything at all to offer, I submit, they wouldn't have given him the time of day.He did at least get a "look", and an "audition", which is more than most musicians ever get.Keep in mind also, the Beach Boys did record one of his songs.That says something.Guns-n-Roses also recorded one of his songs... which quite frankly, I think is one of the better songs on that album.

In general, I agree with most of what you're saying Poirot.But, you state it, as if, Manson never practiced at all.That's a bit of an exaggeration.

>>>Even the skills Manson has/had on guitar, surely required thousands of hours of practice.Buy a guitar tomorrow, and start-in. It will take you years to do what Manson does on guitar.>>>

I personally don't think Manson has any talent. I find it very hard to believe that he played for thousands of hours. He seems like the kind who would just pick up the guitar and strum some chords and make up some dumb lyrics.

>>>Manson was indeed a long-shot... but if guys like Wilson/Stromberg/Melcher/Kaufman didn't think he had anything at all to offer, I submit, they wouldn't have given him the time of day.>>>

I think the only reason anybody other than Wilson took the time to look at Manson was as a favor to Wilson. And as a matter of fact, I think the only reason Wilson tried to get him any studio time was because Charlie wouldn't shut up about it and he wanted Charlie off his back. He probably thought somebody else could tell him to get lost and he wouldn't look so bad.

John Phillips thought he stunk. So did Rudy Altobelli. They didn't want to spend two seconds with him.

>>>Keep in mind also, the Beach Boys did record one of his songs.That says something.>>>

At the time the Beach Boys recorded Manson's song, they were flat out of material. They had run dry. Here was something that could fill a void until the creative flow returned.

>>>Guns-n-Roses also recorded one of his songs... which quite frankly, I think is one of the better songs on that album.>>>

Guns-N-Roses recorded that song for the shock value. "This song was written by Crazy Killer Charles Manson". They're not really what you'd call "squeamish about their image". HA HA.

>>>In general, I agree with most of what you're saying Poirot.But, you state it, as if, Manson never practiced at all.That's a bit of an exaggeration.>>>

I'm not sure if he ever "practiced" (my definition of practicing to learn to play an instrument is hours and hours of sight reading and memorization).I think he was just "jamming", which in my opinion, isn't a serious effort to master an instrument.

And, I agree... I'm sure Manson's young "harum", opened doors, and got him a bit more "consideration" than he would have gotten otherwise.Although, I'm also sure Mr. Wilson and company didn't exactly need a smelly, ex-con hippie, to ascertain girls for them either.

I'm simply saying... I'm sure Manson did practice considerably.What else did he have to do?Well... besides that! LOLPoirot would have us believe, he played the guitar for 24 hours.

neil young thought he was'nt bad if memory serves.he brought manson up to the head of reprise records mo ostin i think it was and said this guys good but hes out of control.i think there was some thread about this on this blog somewhere. i've heard that the song mansion on the hill from the ( imo great) album ragged glory was about manson.

Manson had some talent but he would not do the heavy work of playing live 6 days a week. He never went on the road. He did play a few live failed gigs with Beausoleil is all. Manson never tried to become professional. He tried to bypass the work part and go straight from rehearsals with Clem and Paul to being nominated to the R&R Hall of Fame with nothing in between. Charlie never got past the rehearsal stage. There were hundreds of talented rock bands in California in the 60's Charlie had them to compete with. Charlie stood no chance being given a record deal going against tons of travelled stage hardened bands.

Lynyrd why do you suppose Charlie never did any cover songs? Why did Charlie bypass the typical route to stardom? Why didn't Charlie form a band and hit the road? Why did he remain in the rehearsal hall? Surely Charlie knew that is how you get to stardom. All the other bands on the radio did it the hard way so why didn't Charlie? Why didn't Charlie get an agent to set up gigs and promote him? if he had everything else why did he not throw his hat into the ring with all the other singer/musicians? I don't recall Lennon and McCartney offering George Martin a bevy of nekkid young girls in exchange for a record contract.

I guess I'm agreeing more with Mr. P. because I think that if Manson really wanted to be a popular musician and have his music taken seriously, then he would have put a lot more effort into THAT, than gathering a harem of chicks, passing out drugs, directing orgies, pontificating on the upcoming appocalypse, appointing himself the new world leader, and killing folks. HA HA.

As we discussed earlier, and as you just said, Manson had a lot of spare time on his hands. He never took advantage of any rehabilitation activities offered by the prison to seriously learn to read music, learn musical theory, study composition, study different genres of musical syncopation, etc. And I mean BEFORE 1967.

I´m not so sure Manson wanted to become a Rockstar.One of the theories about the murders is that a frustated Manson unleashed Helter Skelter as a revenge on Terry Melcher because Melcher hadn´t offered him a record contract. In an interview Neil Young Cherished that theory.But I have my doubts.

I also read somewhere that Neil Young thought Manson was talented. I agree that Manson was not willing to work on his craft. Sometimes luck finds you and you can be in the right place at the right time and the pieces come together and it's magic. But more often than not, you have to work hard at something....but of course, if you love it, it really is not work.

I played in a band a long time ago....playing in a band means leaving egos in check and you really need to work at something together. I don't think Charlie could have been in a band unless he was the leader. I don't think he could leave his ego behind.

Now...music....I don't hate the Association....my fave song of there's is "I love you, Alice B. Toklas"...which is a great Peter Sellers movie.

Love Captain Beefheart as well....even bands I do not love, if they are working at their craft, I can at least appreciate what they bring to the table....

>>>One of the theories about the murders is that a frustated Manson unleashed Helter Skelter as a revenge on Terry Melcher because Melcher hadn´t offered him a record contract. In an interview Neil Young Cherished that theory.But I have my doubts.>>>

I think that's just one of the reasons that Charlie was mad. And I DO think that the reason for the TLB murders was because Charlie was pissed.

Ive read a book on Parsons and hes mentioned in every book on R&R from the 60s and early 70s but Ive never heard his music. Ill check out that song. He was only with the Byrds 6 months. Thanks Ill check that out.

>>Adam GoRightly is definitely a pseudonym. And I don't know what all he has done to earn some of the admiration around here, except write a poorly written - kitchen sink-throw everything up at the wall and see what sticks - kind of book.

Examples: He writes the girls went to the POLANSKI residence for a swim, and this is confirmed by MELCHER. WTF does that mean? Melcher would have only been there when he lived there, not the Polanskis...and when did he recently confirm this to Mr. GoRightly?>>>

Starship...right on!!! Melcher confirms that "the girls" went to "the Polanski residence" for a swim.

First of all, "the Polanksi residence" is important. I've read so many ditzy folks say that Melcher rented this house to the Polanskis.

THIS WAS A RENT HOUSE!!! Melcher didn't OWN it!!! Roman didn't OWN it! Rudy Altobelli did!!! PLEASE, PLEASE.....people out there. Let's get this one straight!!!

And how in the HELL would Melcher know who went swimming there after December 1968 when he split the scene???? He wasn't interested at ALL who went swimming there. Pffhhhhh.

>>>And then we get that Linda Kasabian had been to Cielo Drive before. How do we know? Sandy tells us. For crissakes, I don't thaink I'd believe a word of what that bat shit crazy broad has to say. Plus it only fits into her blaming LK and not CM for what happened.>>>

Right on again Starship. If Sandy was on the side of the road selling tomatoes, and claimed they were organic, I would buy ONE, and then throw it in her FACE!!!

Yes Katie, he died in a little motel room in Joshua Tree, CA - the little motel is still there with a little memorial to him in the courtyard.

Did you ever see the movie "Grand Theft Parsons?" Mostly based on fact - Phil Kaufman (Road Mangler and Charlie's buddy) stole his coffin at LAX and took it to Yucca Valley/Joshua Tree NP and set it on fire, to cremate him - the way he wanted to go...

And this is true!

Phil Kaufman was arrested for this...the coffin did not burn all the way...

mr p- you should check out the flying burrito brothers lp the gilded palace of sin i'm not big country music but gram parsonshad one helluva voice. 70s bands like the eagles owe him a big debt. sin city is one of the best countrysongs ever and his cover of wild horses ain't bad either

Where have you been girl? I thought with your last comment you were thru with blogs.

Glad to see you're not!! HA HA.

Kimchi said:

>>>Did you ever see the movie "Grand Theft Parsons?" Mostly based on fact - Phil Kaufman (Road Mangler and Charlie's buddy) stole his coffin at LAX and took it to Yucca Valley/Joshua Tree NP and set it on fire, to cremate him - the way he wanted to go...

And this is true!

Phil Kaufman was arrested for this...the coffin did not burn all the way...>>>

No Kimchi, I'm not that familiar with Parson's death.

I'll admit...the only 3 passions I've ever really had were classical music, Shakespeare and The Manson Family saga.

In that order. HA HA.

Interesting info.

So...Kaufman stole his coffin and tried to burn it....like a Viking funeral???

Mr. P: Sweetheart of the Rodeo was the only record the Byrds cut with Gram, but IMHO their best. Matt is right - check out anything the Flying Burrito Brothers did to get Gram's full impact to rock and/or roll. Very tasty. :)

You know, a good friend told me years ago...if life hands you lemons...you either have sour lemons...or make lemonade.

I've thought about that for a long time now, and I think that can be applied to Charles Manson.

Life handed him lemons.

Well.....I can think of many individuals that life handed that to.

But one name comes to mind.

Helen Keller.

She was blind, deaf & dumb. She didn't make excuses and didn't kill people.

She went onto Radcliffe College. She learned German, French, Greek and other languages.

She turned her condition around to benefit her and others. She was a true humanitarian.

I CAN see, speak and hear. I didn't learn ANY of those languages..

My point being....there are people who are faced with insurmountable obstacles, and surface like the Phoenix.

And there are others, like Charles Manson, whom so many people like to follow like a role model and a champion him, that made lemons and killed people. He only complained about the "man", the establishment, because he was jailed. He only bellyached about not having a family. So he created one.

Charles Manson, if he had any talent at all to be a musician, or to be a gallant leader to "save the world", has never applied any energy to these things.

All he's done is complain about his situation, jam about jail, talk about how the "establishment" kept him from a recording contract", mouth off about the "pigs" who were living off the land and he couldn't quite get into their lives.....

He was sick & twisted. He wanted to be a "pig". He wanted so much to be THEM.

But he couldn't. And that pissed him off.

So he killed.

Think about it....I hope you young people go on to someone who made strides in life to help people.

Charlie tried to get others to do his work for him. His mother said that about him as a child that he never did chores. He even brags that he doesnt have to do anything in prison yet he doesn't seem to realize that nobody cares if he does anything or not. Charlie thinks he's getting over on everybody by not doing any work.

MrPoirot said...Charlie tried to get others to do his work for him. His mother said that about him as a child that he never did chores. He even brags that he doesnt have to do anything in prison yet he doesn't seem to realize that nobody cares if he does anything or not. Charlie thinks he's getting over on everybody by not doing any work.

So true. From what we know of him, he's always been lazy, didn't have the discipline with the music, couldn't stand being told what to do, had a way of getting others to do work for him...the pimping, having others steal for him, sponging from others for housing, food, drugs, money, services etc. He went to Gary's, sliced his face...not his fault Bobby couldn't get any money out of him without killing him, right? He rounded up Tex and a few girls and sent them out of Spahn Ranch on the night of August 8, 1969 to do something witchy, saw Leno on the sofa, got Tex and depending who we believe they get the victims tied up...he once said in a parole hearing "i never tied anyone up", he tells the girls do what tex tells you, takes off, if we believe Linda, asks her know anyone we oughta kill? yeah, I do, they go to the guy's place, he takes off again. Then there's Clem stabbing Shorty in the heart. I wonder if he thought he was outsmarting everyone...that there'd be nothing on him while the others got their hands filthy dirty. How wrong he was, if that's what he thought.One thing that's consistent is his ability to get others to do work for him, and his laziness.

I had friends who had lived in Phil Kaufman's old house. Phil had a Gram Parsons party where he had liquor bottles printed with Gram Parsons picture on the bottle

Mr Poirot replies:

Phil seemed to feel the need to ingratiate himself to people like Gram and Keith Richards. He called himself a professional nanny to the stars. I don't think he helped Gram because he catered to Gram's dangerous cravings. Gram died quicker than most from drugs.

Ahhhhh...Katie. The calvary!! LOL. You have an aura here, Katie, and it's filled with terrific energy.

Thanks for the support for my son's ordeal too. No, nothing serious...oral surgery for orthodontic treatment. A bit unexpected though because the ortho referred us with 'this will be nothing, a quick five minute procedure'. After consult with the oral surgeon, reality was more than 45 minutes of full on IV sedation, altogether more than expected...so he had a rough two days, but there is such amazing healing ability at his young age, so now it's about keeping him in rest mode for a few more days while he'd rather be surfing. :)

Casey Anthony, you and Mary have me into it now! What's up with the weekend court? Is it because the jury is sequestered? i'm coming into it late. I do like that judge...sent that smart ass kid to jail, good for him...you're not going to disrespect my court.

Hi Marliese!! I'm glad you're son is on the mend. Surgery on your mouth can be brutal! I could tell you horror stories about getting my wisdom teeth out, but I won't get into that now. HA HA.

Well, today is final arguments for the prosecution and defense in the Anthony case.

The prosecution finished up this morning, and the defense has started final arguments, and right now they've recessed for lunch. Court will resume at 1:00pm Eastern Time.

The prosecution has done a bang up job on this case. Since the body was decomposed when it was found, the M.E. wasn't able to determine cause of death.

The prosecution has maintained that Casey Anthony was a selfish sociopath, who wanted to party, and couldn't have the "beautiful life" (she had that tattooed on her body after Caylee disappeared) with a toddler holding her back. PLUS....Casey is a pathological liar, and the prosecution states that since Caylee was 2 years old (almost 3) and she was beginning to verbalize effectively, that she was in Casey's way because she could reveal all of her lies.

Thus....she had to go. Casey did internet searches for chloroform and they think she put Caylee to sleep with it, and then duct taped her mouth and nose to kill her. Then she had her in the trunk of her car, all the while lying to her mother about where she was, day after day, for a MONTH.

I won't go into all her lies, that would take up about 20 comments. HA HA. But, today is the last day, then the jury will go into deliberations. Hopefully, they'll have a verdict by tomorrow. They can assess the penalty, but I believe the judge can override it if he wants to.

I think the jury will come back with a guilty verdict. There are just too many loose ends dangling in this case for Casey to have any credence. But I really doubt they will give her the death penalty. If they do, I'll really be shocked.

I think given her young age and the fact that she obviously has mental problems, they will probably give her life in prison.

Matt you're right. It's all conjecture about how she died, when, where and who did it.

They've proven that Casey is a manipulative liar. And she's not on trial for that.

BUT.....they have also proven that for a month after Caylee disappeared, Casey lied her ass off about her activities, where she was, made up people that she was hanging out with, and the WHOLE WHILE...never showing any evidence of any emotional distress about her daughter being gone.

I think the jury will look at that long and hard. Plus, they can see Casey every day and she is the coldest, most un-emotional person I've ever seen. She's a great actress. She only cries at odd times, but her eye makeup never smears, which any woman can tell you, that won't happen if you're really crying. LOL.

I guess we'll find out sometime soon what the jury thinks.

The defense is doing pretty good on final arguments, but they appear sloppy and unprepared, so that works against them.

No it's not proof of murder. But you have to admit, Casey Anthony acted very suspiciously after Caylee disappeared, with no apparent excuse for it.

The defense has made a pretty good case, except they're still talking in final arguments, which started before noon Eastern Time. I think they're overdoing it big time. Saying the same things over and over. The jury is going to stop listening.

I don't know if Terry Melcher was really interested in Charlie's abilities. I have my doubts. It seems in everything I've read, he just kind of "went along with the auditions", I think to satisfy Wilson.

Terry went to Spahn's Ranch to hear the "family jam". He wasn't impressed.

But...I'm sure that at some point, around December 1968, Terry Melcher decided that Manson was dangerous.

I thought charlie's guru status helped get him studio time as much or more than his singing and writing. i thought Wilson was enamored with Charlie's galactic spiel. This led dennis to use Charlie's songs. I never thought Charlie's talent alone got him into a major studio. Melcher just seemed to be placating Jacobson and Wilson's pleadings to record Charlie.

>>Mr. P. writes: I thought charlie's guru status helped get him studio time as much or more than his singing and writing. i thought Wilson was enamored with Charlie's galactic spiel. This led dennis to use Charlie's songs.>>>

Charlie was only a "guru" to his minions. I don't really think that Wilson ever thought Charlie had any talent. I think that Wilson was thinking, as long as I placate Charlie, he'll keep bringing the broads and drugs.

>>>I never thought Charlie's talent alone got him into a major studio. Melcher just seemed to be placating Jacobson and Wilson's pleadings to record Charlie.>>>

Yes, I agree. Melcher listened to Jackobson & Wilson whine about Charlie and finally relented. He agreed to listen to Charlie's ramblings, but I have a feeling that he was already of a mind to disregard it. His obligation was filled by listening...he didn't have any obligation after that.

casey anthony in my opinion is a classic sociopath. most of these people never kill, but they are narcissistic and care nothing about other people's feeling. i am not convinced she purposely murdered her daughter though.

katie8753 said...I'm going to ask some questions that I've asked several times and no one has answered.

Why did Tex take a rope and bolt cutters to Cielo Drive & not Waverly Drive???

Why did Charlie go along the 2nd time, and not the first?

Mr Poirot replies:

The wire cutters were needed because there were two houses they were attacking at Cielo. The ropewas to hang bodies from the convenient rafters at the main house. The hanging was an added touch Charlie thought up to spread fear. But the struggle to kill 5 people was harder than they thought. They even sustained injuries. Charlie went on night two to manage the murders since the killers didnt do it like Charlie wanted on night one. They knew the layout at Labiancas. Rope and wire cutters werent needed but Charlie did tie up the victims with leather string he brought.

>>>Beauders said: casey anthony in my opinion is a classic sociopath. most of these people never kill, but they are narcissistic and care nothing about other people's feeling. i am not convinced she purposely murdered her daughter though.>>>

She may have murdered her accidentally, but in any case, she's still guilty of first degree murder.

Casey Anthony is the last person to see Caylee alive. Why won't she say what happened to her? The only reason I can come up with is that she killed her and she doesn't want to admit that.

The wire cutters were needed because there were two houses they were attacking at Cielo.>>>

Okay, I guess that makes sense.

>>>The rope was to hang bodies from the convenient rafters at the main house. The hanging was an added touch Charlie thought up to spread fear. But the struggle to kill 5 people was harder than they thought. They even sustained injuries.>>>

Well now you've lost me. I don't recall anyone saying that Charlie said to hang anyone. Am I missing something?

>>>Charlie went on night two to manage the murders since the killers didnt do it like Charlie wanted on night one. They knew the layout at Labiancas. Rope and wire cutters werent needed but Charlie did tie up the victims with leather string he brought.>>>

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True