Gav - while I realize there are ideas raised in this thread that the majority oppose and its probably not worth discussing further (ex: wildcards) - or ever again for that matter - its interesting to me the Board decided to devote an entire poll and thread to the issue of the start date of one tournament 75% of TT players do not play (worth only 200 points). In my opinion at least - which trust me I'm under no delusions suggesting I think anyone takes it into account - in the grand scheme of things this is probably at the complete bottom of the totem pole of issues that we should be focusing on to continue making TT a better game

in the grand scheme of things this is probably at the complete bottom of the totem pole of issues that we should be focusing on to continue making TT a better game :shrug"

Hallelujah

12-22-2011 07:55 PM

ibreak4coffee

Re: TT changes 2012

Gav - while I realize there are ideas raised in this thread that the majority oppose and its probably not worth discussing further (ex: wildcards) - or ever again for that matter - its interesting to me the Board decided to devote an entire poll and thread to the issue of the start date of one tournament 75% of TT players do not play (worth only 200 points). In my opinion at least - which trust me I'm under no delusions suggesting I think anyone takes it into account - in the grand scheme of things this is probably at the complete bottom of the totem pole of issues that we should be focusing on to continue making TT a better game

12-22-2011 03:32 PM

Taz Warrior

Re: TT changes 2012

It’s always been open to the players to discuss anything they want. It just appears that last year, not many players wanted to discuss anything. TT has always been largely a democratic game where the participants have a big say. Last year was an exception as in previous years there was always a lot more discussion.

Below is a quick insight into how the TT changes process works.

Murilo keeps track of any topics/potential changes that are brought up or have caused discussion during the year and includes these items in the first post. These are used as a starting point to discuss any changes and players are encouraged offer opinions on these and to offer suggestions for changes that they would like in the thread (e.g., the ranking points came up when it hadn’t been mentioned previously). He then went through all the responses in the thread and split the topics into sections based upon the responses, i.e, some topics had no responses so no need to do anything, some were minor tweaks that no-body objected to, others had a split opinion and lend themselves easily to a poll.

The 2 main new topics that were brought up were Wild Cards and a change to the ranking points. These would be two major changes to the game and would require further thought and clarification. Wildcards have been discussed to death in the past and voted on with the overwhelming majority being against them. There wasn’t a huge amount of support in the thread for it and no new, concrete proposals for how it would work so we didn’t believe it would be productive to continue the debate.

A change in ranking points to reflect the ATP ranking points would be a huge change to TT so this is not something that could be decided in a week as we would need to fully understand the consequences of any change e.g., how a transition would affect the rankings and how that should be managed/introduced and the reasons for the change. IMO, if it’s just to bring us into line with ATP that is not a good enough reason as it has already been voted upon in the past that TT players did not want the ATP ranking points structure. So, we decided that as there was a bit of support for a change we should carry this over into 2012 to get more opinions from other players.

What we have noticed this year (and last) is that we have run out of time with the discussions and there has been less activity in the thread. Whether this is because less people want change now or because there are less people around during the off-season we don’t know. That is why we mentioned carrying on some discussions on major changes to 2012 to ensure that enough people are aware of any potential changes and can have the opportunity to contribute.

I do not agree with changing the ranking system. Now 4 people are in favor and 4 against.

Seems like either you didn't read what I wrote or didn't understand it or I didn't explain my point correctly.
It's not about what your vote now because there is no vote at all. It's about the criteria they use while reviewing changes. At that time more people were in favor than against, so I just wanted to know how do they decide which topics they have a vote at and which they approve and which they decline.

It was explained that the same points as ATP would not working well for TT because luck is playing much bigger role here and (more important) because unlike in ATP here you have to defeat almost the same players in most events. To win 250 series event you have to defeat similar players as in grand slam, so wining GS isn't realy 8 times more difficult as wining 250 pts event. So It wouldn't be "fair" to make such big point differences between the tournaments. And if anyone cares about new players, such big differences would make it very difficult to earn some good ranking for them.

So it would be nice to hear some opinions on this from people who still insist on changing pts system.

I am wondering how do you decide which topics should be voted on and which you approve and which you ignore? Is there a criteria for that. Like how many people were in favor of a certain topic and how many were against it or which you as board members think is sensible?
Something like the change in the ranking system had 4 in favor and 3 against, from which 2 are board members. This idea would require 2 years to be changed, so if you say you would open topics early in 2012 to discuss it and I don't know how again would you decide if you approve it or not, based on your criteria, which I also don't know. Then if happened and it's approved to implement the new change you would need then 2013 as a transitional year and then in 2014 the new system would be approved. By that time maybe some of you would leave the board already. So that's basically killing the idea. I am not saying implement it now, but let people vote and see if the majority wants it and everyone should then accept what the majority wants. It not like I will gain anything by having this system. I just suggested it as it makes more sense for me than the one we have right now.

I am also wondering why don't you discuss these topics (ATP ranking system adoption, wild cards, entries/commitments improvements and tie-break changes) now in the off-season? Why do you need to wait to 2012?

I am just asking these two question and hoping for an answer and please don't take it personal. I am just asking to make things clear for me.
Thanks

I do not agree with changing the ranking system. Now 4 people are in favor and 4 against.

I am wondering how do you decide which topics should be voted on and which you approve and which you ignore? Is there a criteria for that. Like how many people were in favor of a certain topic and how many were against it or which you as board members think is sensible?

I asked the same thing in Post 62 and am waiting answer on that one too.

Edit - I've just had a look at the exact same thread you had for this last year and I see there were just 22 posts in the whole thread and it was basically just a board talking shop with hardly anyone else contributing to the thread. This year you’ve got 84 posts which is to be highly commended and must surely tell you that you’ve done something right in asking for other opinions and engagement from other people, now you’re getting people giving ideas – you need to make the next bold step forward and let people see that their new ideas and suggestions are actually being considered.
As far as I can see there’s not been one single new idea or suggestion that has been taken up on or given a vote on which is such a wasted opportunity, you're getting a lot more engagement, please please make some valid use of it and don't throw it all to waste.

I am also wondering why don't you discuss these topics (ATP ranking system adoption, wild cards, entries/commitments improvements and tie-break changes) now in the off-season? Why do you need to wait to 2012?

Because that is a huge changes and needs some time for preparation

12-22-2011 09:51 AM

abollo

Re: TT changes 2012

I am wondering how do you decide which topics should be voted on and which you approve and which you ignore? Is there a criteria for that. Like how many people were in favor of a certain topic and how many were against it or which you as board members think is sensible?
Something like the change in the ranking system had 4 in favor and 3 against, from which 2 are board members. This idea would require 2 years to be changed, so if you say you would open topics early in 2012 to discuss it and I don't know how again would you decide if you approve it or not, based on your criteria, which I also don't know. Then if happened and it's approved to implement the new change you would need then 2013 as a transitional year and then in 2014 the new system would be approved. By that time maybe some of you would leave the board already. So that's basically killing the idea. I am not saying implement it now, but let people vote and see if the majority wants it and everyone should then accept what the majority wants. It not like I will gain anything by having this system. I just suggested it as it makes more sense for me than the one we have right now.

I am also wondering why don't you discuss these topics (ATP ranking system adoption, wild cards, entries/commitments improvements and tie-break changes) now in the off-season? Why do you need to wait to 2012?

I am just asking these two question and hoping for an answer and please don't take it personal. I am just asking to make things clear for me.
Thanks

- Two-round day: 1st & 2nd rounds played on the same day (mostly for the first day of increased qualifying events): a player/team who has a bye to the second round but doesn't send picks will be replaced by the 1st round loser with the highest score.

- Top 30 players & SE's: top 30 players won't be eligible to get SE's into challengers.

- Alternate placements: alternates & lucky losers won't be able to get byes to the second round. The current alternate/LL placement rule will remain the same. After the alternate/LL placements, if there are any alternates or lucky losers placed against a player/team who doesn't send picks, the draw will be adjusted in order to give the byes to the best ranked players who enter the draw directly. The alternates and lucky losers will play their first round matches against the opponents of the players who are given the byes.

Polls:

- Winston-Salem's main draw starting day? Sunday x Monday.

- WTF Challengers & WTF - should players be allowed to play both competitions in case they're played in different weeks? Yes x No.

- Late entries: should they be eligible to get SEs? Yes x No.

Remaining topics:

Suggestions like the ATP ranking system adoption, wild cards, entries/commitments improvements and tie-break changes will continue to be discussed during the 2012 season for a possible implementation in 2013. These topics could require big changes to the game which would have to be planned in advance. We'll open specific threads about these topics early in 2012.

The generally accepted way of doing it is that the matches that the manager feels will provide the biggest split of picks will have the highest priority (SR1, 2, etc) but ultimately it's up to the manager to decide the order of the OOP.

I have taken the liberty of bolding part of Gav's post.
Some players also suggessted that gambling odds rather than differences in ranking should form the criterion.

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