I am tired of hearing all the SMOKE and MIRRORS talk from the tankless salesman and am presentlylooking to install one in my own home

then do a little experiment

-----------------------------------------------------------------------I Just went to a training seminar last night on the

takagi tankless water heaters.......

that was fun....... it felt like being at a three stooges film-fest...

(but their was free food)

I was not aware that when you vented one out the side of the house just like a power ventthat they used a Stainless Steel single wall vent pipe..... and it died outside just like a power vent with a metal Tee with screens on both ends .......

Now the odd thing that the salesman tried to gloss over was the fact that the actual temperature ofthe tee and out going gases can hit about 300 degrees.... folks...you can fry bacon on that!!

they let you take this out the roof of your house in single wall SS pipe too!!

I think that this temp could set the Attic on fire some dayor the , bushes or leaves on fireon the side of the house....

I feel you should use double or triple wall flu pipe if you want to avoid future problems

probably most local codes would force tou to beef up that vent pipe...

Have you ever burnt yourself on a motor cycle muffleror a lawnmower muffler???

We asked what happened if a kid, wife or dog touchedthis hot as hell vent pipe ????

BRANDING someone on this tee is very possible with theside house outlet at about knee height..........

I was told that is what you got insurance for.....

skin graphs for the dog, wife, and neighbor kids should all be covered by your insurance company......

no problem

so I was not too impressed....LOL
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So I think I will install one in my own homeand do an on-going experiment on it.....

Waiting to see if I can get a heavy duty Takagifrom my supplier then slap it on the wall for RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT

I am looking for a couple of small in line gas meters right now..

then I am gonna hook it up right next to my 75 gallon BRAD-FORD WHITE...install a bypass on the plumbing system

install the small gas meters to both of the heaters

and do an experiment to see which one works best and actually is more economical over a certain time period....???

I already have a one inch line with a 3/4 outlet less than 5 feet away...

I have a full 12 inch tile chimmney going out the roof......the vent is easy as pie and will not factor into the R+D

I presently have a NORTIZ unit new in the box but I dont know how good that brand is...

model #VP-4-36str would anyone know how good this one is???

http://www.noritz.com/n069mdv.html its considered middle of the road.... supposed to supply 6.9 gal per minute
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Lets see....here is my criteria

incomming water right now is about 45......

I got two kids and a very -----HIGH MAINTAINCE WIFE-----

we have three bathrooms --one bath-tub rarely gets used,

one is a bath---6ft X36 whirlpool tub- it gets used a lot.

two kitchen sinks , one dishwasher,

one laundry and laundry tub

technically its a 2 1/2 bathoom house......

again the wife is -----HIGH MAINTIANCE------

and she is not going to put up with a lot of sh/t.so how do you factor the wife into the experiment.?????

I have a $300 Raytek infared thermometer I use to find radiant pipes in concrete slabs. GREAT tool for many uses. I'd like you to measure the heat on the single wall at your house or at another installation. You can buy one of these starting at $59

I have a $300 Raytek infared thermometer I use to find radiant pipes in concrete slabs. GREAT tool for many uses. I'd like you to measure the heat on the single wall at your house or at another installation. You can buy one of these starting at $59

Click to expand...

I have one of those, bought it from one of the E bay stores for $49, and yes you can find the hydronic pipes in the floor... I wanted to use it to find out which tubes in my solar collectors were plugged up... duh, it reads the temperature off the glass cover.

Mark, I read the instruction manual you put on the link, saw the illustration of the woman with the huge glowing burnt hand; tell you what, I wouldn't get one. Too hot, and too many restrictions. Too accessible for a disaster with burns.

My boiler is over 98% efficient in its condensing low-fire mode. It uses pvc pipe, and you can easily touch the pipes, which are barely warm, and I've got as much hot water as I need...even with my incoming water at nearly freezing this time of the year.

I still think a tankless is more trouble than it's worth for many of our northern climes where the incoming water is very cold.

I have installed both Noritz and Bosch brand tankless. The Noritz used stainless vent pipe. The Bosch was vented with B-vent. Both were sidewall. The noritz was hung in the kitchen and terminated about 12 foot above ground level. The Bosch was in a basement and terminated about a foot above the ground. I was able to keep my hand on both of the vent pipes while they were under full demand, I would guess the temp was about 100 degrees. I didn't check how hot it was outside. I got a nice little cherry on my forehead from a furnace flue pipe two weeks ago, but that was just galvanised.

I installed one of these about 4 years ago before I left the UK and it worked a treat.

Hot water supply was at the tap in about 6 seconds or so nearest to the boiler and about 15 seconds furthest from the boiler.

I never had any issues with the heat exhausting as it has a system that captures much of the heat and recycles it. I have stood with my hand next to the vent and felt hot air but not anywhere near able to burn you. The vent was about 24 inches max from the boiler.

Really efficient and small and perfect for places where having a water tank is no option or a costly/difficult one. They run very quietly (well the two I owned did) and are easy to maintain.

Can't tell you what the US brands are like but I used Potterton and I think Glow Worm; the Potterton was the last one installed.

Mark,
I installed a Noritz tankless today. The unit cranks out 120 degree water from the factory. The exhaust snaps together, I used one 90, 2 twelve inch straight pipes and a termination birdscreen. I drilled thru the sill plate with a 4-5/8" bit and then silicon caulked around the pipe. When it's on, you can keep your hand on the pipe, the exhaust is hot, but not too hot. Get on the gravy train!

Mark, you're gonna need something thats at least 7gpm...anything less and the flow could be a dribble when two showers are going and the dishwasher kicks on (they have built in flow restriction to regulate temps depending on useage)
I've done some calling on past customers...verdicts in...the gas bill does go down, also my gas co offers a $300 rebate for tankless over 82% efficient.

I am getting almost as many requests for tankless as regular heaters now. (the price often scares 'em & add the fact that theres more labor for the 3/4" gas feed & vent)
The SS vent is expensive, and if you can't find a convenient spot thats 4' from any opening outside the desired location for the tankless...you'll do well to "desire" another location inside along the foundation.

Also...tankless come with a double wall thimble for the heat going through the foundation...keep the height a minimum 18" above grade and leaves wouldn't be a problem.

Tankless heaters are not condensing, so the vents run hotter...If you really want to sell a customer on efficiency...run an indirect off a condensing boiler...my gas co offers rebates on both of those as well.(up to $1100 for that particular combo)

does anyone have a clue as to what a 40- 50 or 75 gallon gas water heater average costs to operate is per month????

Thats completely open ended...totally depends on useage.
could be $15 a month....could be $1500 with a high maintanence wife.
I just ask my customers to pull out last summers gas bill if they have a boiler...otherwise the most recent bill for comparison.

Well I had my 40 gallon gas hot water heater crap out last month.
I went with a tank-less electric I found on ****.After agonizing over a high efficient control type gas tank type(The report of the controller bombing out after a year scared me away) or tankless gas(The cost made me fall over).
I bought a Titan tankless electric(About 250 with overnight shipping).The company is based in Florida and they are actually built here.
I opened the box to find this little unit (I was like oops that was a waste money it so small no way it works)So off to Lowes to get a 60 amp 220 breaker, 20 ft #6 wire, conduit ,disconnect box and a stick of 1/2 copper.
Roughly another $200.
The little small unit was a snap to install.(Even though I disagree with the compression connections)
Surprisingly it produce a decent volume of very hot water.(it does have a temp knob mine is set 3/4 to the hot no young children here).
I did have 2 issues the first was no constant temp.
Called the guy I got it from and he asked well or city water.
Than explained the .5# negative pressure would turn the unit off and recommend a check valve.(Since I installed it two weeks ago no hot cold issue any more)
The other is that I only have a 100 amp service.
And if you do the math.
Water heater drawing 60 amp+ well 25 amps=85 I have not popped a main but it does dim the lights.
So 200 amp service to be installed soon