So how and why did Donald Trump come to pick Paul Manafort to be his campaign manager? Who put that name in the Donald's head? We know Trump and his family have their own connections with Russia. So even if he came up with it through just knowing the players that alone would be creepy enough.

But what if... it was something else. What if, and I'm not saying I believe this, but what if (did I say that enough already?) Manafort and the Russians were much closer than we already know they were? What if they basically placed him there in the campaign, at Trump's behest even? Or at whose exact fucking behest we just don't know at this point.

The New York Times has an article about how Manafort got hired by the campaign. He knew Trump's friend Tom Barrack and told Barrack he wanted to work for the campaign. Barrack helped to get him hired. But it wasn't a stretch hire - he applied for the position of Republican Party Convention Manager, a position he held in 1996 with Dole and 1988 with Bush. He was also involved in the Republican convention at lower positions for both Reagan and Ford. The Times shows the two-page memo that Manafort sent to the campaign applying for the position.

Well, okay, those are the sort of paper trail details but they don't necessarily refute any of my pre-midmorning nap conspiracy theories. Buzz at the time Manafort was picked was all hey, this guy is an ancient player from Republican politics of yore. Why hire someone who has been out of the majors (in the US) for so long. He certainly kept himself plenty busy working in Eastern Europe. We know he was dirty all along. Caught up with the wrong elements in the wrong places. And then, it seems, he wanted to come back to work here with candidate Trump. And now hum haw he's indicted by Robert Mueller for conspiracy against the United States, being an unregistered agent of a foreign principal, and seven counts of failure to file reports of foreign bank and financial accounts. Maybe powerful elements orchestrated his becoming a part of the Trump campaign. Every time I've ever heard of a string being pulled to get someone a job, it always started with the person pulling the strings saying, okay, fill out an application, send your resume, go through all the normal procedures of seeking and being hired for a job and ... we'll take it from there.

Last edited by jammerbirdi on 10/31/17 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

Slate has an article titled "Trump Should Be Scared". That seemed way premature since Manafort was not indicted on campaign-related activities.

Well, again, that's not what matters to Mueller. Matters to CNN of course.

CNN is like most of the posters here. Sure that Trump is guilty of something with Russia, and anxiously waiting for Mueller to charge him. I personally would put more money on a charge against Trump being for The Trump Organization dealings, since it appears that Mueller can make charges outside the scope of the investigation with regard to Russia.

Speaking for myself, I don't think Trump will be charged or convicted of anything, unless he does something to actively obstruct justice.

What I think most people are concerned with is "high crimes and misdemeanors", which is something different than violating the criminal code. Basically, if Trump is shown to be complicit in the whole collusion bit, he will likely face impeachment.

Slate has an article titled "Trump Should Be Scared". That seemed way premature since Manafort was not indicted on campaign-related activities.

Well, again, that's not what matters to Mueller. Matters to CNN of course.

CNN is like most of the posters here. Sure that Trump is guilty of something with Russia, and anxiously waiting for Mueller to charge him. I personally would put more money on a charge against Trump being for The Trump Organization dealings, since it appears that Mueller can make charges outside the scope of the investigation with regard to Russia.

Speaking for myself, I don't think Trump will be charged or convicted of anything, unless he does something to actively obstruct justice.

What I think most people are concerned with is "high crimes and misdemeanors", which is something different than violating the criminal code. Basically, if Trump is shown to be complicit in the whole collusion bit, he will likely face impeachment.

Note that Manafort picked Pence to be Trump's running mate and was the one who convinced Trump to choose him

_________________Is the relinquishment of the trial by jury and the liberty of the press necessary for your liberty? Will the abandonment of your most sacred rights tend to the security of your liberty? Liberty, the greatest of all earthly blessings—give us that precious jewel, and you may take every thing else!… Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel.

I saw an article on Manafort recently where they say that Ferdinand Marcos gave Manafort $10 million for the Reagan campaign. The Reagan campaign said they never received it. My first thought was - wow, Manafort pocketed $10 million that wasn't his. Then I remembered reading in the same article that it was illegal for US campaigns to accept foreign donations. So the Reagan campaign could have taken the money and be unable to admit it.

Buzz at the time Manafort was picked was all [i]hey, this guy is an ancient player from Republican politics of yore.

Yeah, I remember your man Joe Scarborough saying something like "I've been active in Republican politics for 30 years and I've never heard of Paul Manafort!!". And Manafort certainly could have been encouraged to apply for the Convention Manager position by someone else.

The fact that Manafort knows Tom Barrack raises an eyebrow with me, with regard to Barrack. Barrack is ethnically an Arab and operates in the Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabia. I don't recall Manfort doing stuff in the Middle East. Would like to know how they met and whether they ever did any joint dealings together, or are they really just friends.

Buzz at the time Manafort was picked was all [i]hey, this guy is an ancient player from Republican politics of yore.

Yeah, I remember your man Joe Scarborough saying something like "I've been active in Republican politics for 30 years and I've never heard of Paul Manafort!!". And Manafort certainly could have been encouraged to apply for the Convention Manager position by someone else.

The fact that Manafort knows Tom Barrack raises an eyebrow with me, with regard to Barrack. Barrack is ethnically an Arab and operates in the Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabia. I don't recall Manfort doing stuff in the Middle East. Would like to know how they met and whether they ever did any joint dealings together, or are they really just friends.

both Conway & Manafort have long ties to Robert & Rebekah Mercer (Cambridge Analytics) & its believed in some circles that it was Mercer (& his money) who told 45 that if he wanted the Mercer monies, he'd have to put Conway & Manafort in the admin.

President Trump's reckless tweeting about Special Counsel Robert Mueller's initial charging decisions is making the situation even worse for Trump, including by increasing his own personal liability.

Quote:

Papadopoulos’s admissions offer another, new piece of evidence of collusion.

Quote:

The president was apparently as surprised as everyone else by the George Papadopoulos guilty plea. Unsealing the plea was a smart advance move by Mueller to rebut the “no collusion” characterization of his investigation that might otherwise have taken hold by just charging Manafort and Gates.

Quote:

Trump is rightly freaking out, and so Tuesday he pivoted to minimizing Papadopoulos and calling him a liar.

Quote:

Take it from me as someone who for a quarter of a century worked against and with prosecutors and FBI agents (including Mueller himself): they are fiercely protective of their cooperators. By attacking Papadopoulos as a liar, Trump hardly signals his good faith to Mueller. After all, Mueller is offering Papadopoulos's testimony as true. So Trump is not just assaulting the special counsel’s cooperator; Trump is contradicting Mueller, and maybe even hinting that Mueller is intentionally offering the testimony of a liar.

President Trump is reportedly blaming White House adviser Jared Kushner for his role in decisions that led to the appointment of special counsel Robert Mueller, according to a new report by Vanity Fair.

In a call Tuesday to former White House chief strategist Stephen Bannon, Trump put blame on Kushner for the part he took in choices to fire former national security adviser Michael Flynn and former FBI director James Comey, Vanity Fair reported.

Buzz at the time Manafort was picked was all [i]hey, this guy is an ancient player from Republican politics of yore.

Yeah, I remember your man Joe Scarborough saying something like "I've been active in Republican politics for 30 years and I've never heard of Paul Manafort!!". And Manafort certainly could have been encouraged to apply for the Convention Manager position by someone else.

The fact that Manafort knows Tom Barrack raises an eyebrow with me, with regard to Barrack. Barrack is ethnically an Arab and operates in the Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabia. I don't recall Manfort doing stuff in the Middle East. Would like to know how they met and whether they ever did any joint dealings together, or are they really just friends.

both Conway & Manafort have long ties to Robert & Rebekah Mercer (Cambridge Analytics) & its believed in some circles that it was Mercer (& his money) who told 45 that if he wanted the Mercer monies, he'd have to put Conway & Manafort in the admin.

Are you sure you aren't confusing Manafort with Steven Bannon? I think the last thing Manafort did in US politics pre-Trump was being the 1996 Convention Manager for Bob Dole. Conway and Bannon joined the Trump campaign as Manafort was exiting.

Trump is reportedly blaming White House adviser Jared Kushner for his role in decisions that led to the appointment of special counsel Robert Mueller, according to a new report by Vanity Fair.

Somebody on some cable news show I was watching in the last few days claimed with great certainty that Trump has been asking his daughter and son-in-law to go back to New York (withdrawing from an Trump administration activity).

Let me give you all a dream scenario for these indictments. Mueller charges Jared and Ivanka. The boys. And then, he tags Pence. One way or another, Pence is toast. Either he’s legally culpable somehow or he will just be found guilty in the court of public opinion for denying that anyone had been speaking to Russians when we now know that he knew very well otherwise. But knock them all off, especially Pence, before taking down the Donald. Because this country winding up with Mike Pence as president would be an epic failure of the whole damn point.

Let me give you all a dream scenario for these indictments. Mueller charges Jared and Ivanka. The boys. And then, he tags Pence. One way or another, Pence is toast. Either he’s legally culpable somehow or he will just be found guilty in the court of public opinion for denying that anyone had been speaking to Russians when we now know that he knew very well otherwise. But knock them all off, especially Pence, before taking down the Donald. Because this country winding up with Mike Pence as president would be an epic failure of the whole damn point.

Of course that leaves us with...Paul Ryan

While Trump and Pence are beyond terrible, they have at least proven to be ineffectual so far. But put Ryan in office with his boner for all things Ayn Rand and fucking over the poor, and the outcome could be disastrous for this country on a whole different level.

You know, some of you are willing to believe anything because you want it to be true. Not because it IS true. Like Trump and the nonexistent Russia connection that has already been thoroughly disproven. We are coming up on a year now of the complete denial of reality on behalf of a rapidly shrinking numbers of "believers." Those believers know who they are. But by all means, don't let me stop those of you who are wrapped up in conspiracy theories stop you from listening to whoever it is putting these misguided thoughts into your heads. This entire thread is going to be GREAT for some laughs in a few weeks (or months) from now.

Some other people might still go down in this investigation. But what happens if they end up not being the people you WANT? The world has moved on from this fake dossier on Trump. Ask yourselves, when are you going to wake up and realize you've been the useful idiots rather than the enlightened ones you think you all are?

I mean, don't take my word for it. By all means, continue hoping for something to come out of this that results in imprisonment or even impeachment. I'm just saying, some of us are going to think it's really funny when it doesn't pan out that way.

justintyme wrote:

Seeing as though someone has already pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about not colluding with the Russians, and is now working with the investigation, saying that it has been "disproven" is categorically false.

But I am fine with you believing whatever it is you want to believe. Once Mueller has finished his investigation we can discuss how wrong you were.

If you want to listen to a great take on what is happening, listen to Fox News' own Shep Smith. He nailed it yesterday without putting on a tinfoil hat one way or another.

Would you like to discuss how wrong I was now, or would you like to wait another month so this can implode just a little bit more?

You know, some of you are willing to believe anything because you want it to be true. Not because it IS true. Like Trump and the nonexistent Russia connection that has already been thoroughly disproven. We are coming up on a year now of the complete denial of reality on behalf of a rapidly shrinking numbers of "believers." Those believers know who they are. But by all means, don't let me stop those of you who are wrapped up in conspiracy theories stop you from listening to whoever it is putting these misguided thoughts into your heads. This entire thread is going to be GREAT for some laughs in a few weeks (or months) from now.

Some other people might still go down in this investigation. But what happens if they end up not being the people you WANT? The world has moved on from this fake dossier on Trump. Ask yourselves, when are you going to wake up and realize you've been the useful idiots rather than the enlightened ones you think you all are?

I mean, don't take my word for it. By all means, continue hoping for something to come out of this that results in imprisonment or even impeachment. I'm just saying, some of us are going to think it's really funny when it doesn't pan out that way.

justintyme wrote:

Seeing as though someone has already pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about not colluding with the Russians, and is now working with the investigation, saying that it has been "disproven" is categorically false.

But I am fine with you believing whatever it is you want to believe. Once Mueller has finished his investigation we can discuss how wrong you were.

If you want to listen to a great take on what is happening, listen to Fox News' own Shep Smith. He nailed it yesterday without putting on a tinfoil hat one way or another.

Would you like to discuss how wrong I was now, or would you like to wait another month so this can implode just a little bit more?

Wait until Meuller is finished before claiming that he found nothing. Meuller is a career bureaucrat and will take much longer than most people could imagine to end his investigation.

President Trump's reckless tweeting about Special Counsel Robert Mueller's initial charging decisions is making the situation even worse for Trump, including by increasing his own personal liability.

Quote:

Papadopoulos’s admissions offer another, new piece of evidence of collusion.

Quote:

The president was apparently as surprised as everyone else by the George Papadopoulos guilty plea. Unsealing the plea was a smart advance move by Mueller to rebut the “no collusion” characterization of his investigation that might otherwise have taken hold by just charging Manafort and Gates.

Quote:

Trump is rightly freaking out, and so Tuesday he pivoted to minimizing Papadopoulos and calling him a liar.

Quote:

Take it from me as someone who for a quarter of a century worked against and with prosecutors and FBI agents (including Mueller himself): they are fiercely protective of their cooperators. By attacking Papadopoulos as a liar, Trump hardly signals his good faith to Mueller. After all, Mueller is offering Papadopoulos's testimony as true. So Trump is not just assaulting the special counsel’s cooperator; Trump is contradicting Mueller, and maybe even hinting that Mueller is intentionally offering the testimony of a liar.

Too slowly. Trump has become cover for every bad thing that is happening in the world including the many sins of the media and the Democrats.

Listen. I don't know how this is going to sound to some of you. But hear this. Yesterday, on CNN, the most trusted name in news, it was literally all Omarosa, all day. And night. So there's the Trump administration, and hopefully they're going to be gone soon. But we've had CNN and all the others for decades. I remember not so long ago CNN covered NOTHING .... NOT ONE THING... but a missing airplane FOR AT LEAST A SOLID MONTH.

THERE IS NO HOPE! And it's got nothing the fuck to do with Donald Trump! Except it's all part of this massive clusterfucking of our democracy of which the news media plays a central role which enabled Trump to rise in popularity and to win the presidency.

I personally can't wait for the historic show that Trump's removal will be. Just months ago I was warning that we shouldn't want that by a long shot. But we are well down that road now, and it IS already, as I thought, so bad that the only hope is that it ends quickly and then we can just enjoy the spectacle for a minute before the whole thing gets so sickening we'll all be watching fucking curling on ESPN to detox.

Then, after it's all over, a plane will go missing. And then you're going to know or be reminded how fucked up it really is even without Donald Trump running the country.

The White House repeated Saturday that President Donald Trump has no intentions of firing Department of Justice special counsel Robert Mueller amid fresh speculation from a congresswoman that he would be doing so.

The White House repeated Saturday that President Donald Trump has no intentions of firing Department of Justice special counsel Robert Mueller amid fresh speculation from a congresswoman that he would be doing so.

Just more of the non-stop political leaking to and baiting of the anti-Trump whore media by cynically desperate anti-Trumpers in Congress and the deep state swamp.

First, they can't stand the election results so they make up the phony Russia collusion story out of whole cloth, with no evidence whatsoever, ever.

After a year of investigation of that nothingburger, they turn the story to the firing of Comey being an obstruction of the nothingburger investigation. But the investigation goes on under McCabe, Wray and special counsel Mueller, producing six more months of nothingburgers.

So now the story is a potential firing of Mueller to stop the 18 month nothingburger Russia-gate. (Meanwhile, it's actually the Clinton campaign/DNC/Fusion GPS who actually "colluded" with Russians to affect the election.)

Well, of course the left wing wants to keep talking about Russian nothingburger investigations. If they couldn't, they might have to actually think about, and talk about, and articulate, and explain, and try to cooperatively legislate . . . (Gasp! How rare!) . . . some actual domestic or foreign policy initiatives that would benefit the American public.

Well, of course the left wing wants to keep talking about Russian nothingburger investigations. If they couldn't, they might have to actually think about, and talk about, and articulate, and explain, and try to cooperatively legislate . . . (Gasp! How rare!) . . . some actual domestic or foreign policy initiatives that would benefit the American public.

in case you missed it, the repugs are in control. if things aren't getting done, its on them. they put up nominees (or not, qualified or not), they set the committee schedules for meetings/hearings, etc. so if you're frustrated that things aren't getting done, contact Ryan or McConnell.

The White House repeated Saturday that President Donald Trump has no intentions of firing Department of Justice special counsel Robert Mueller amid fresh speculation from a congresswoman that he would be doing so.

Just more of the non-stop political leaking to and baiting of the anti-Trump whore media by cynically desperate anti-Trumpers in Congress and the deep state swamp.

First, they can't stand the election results so they make up the phony Russia collusion story out of whole cloth, with no evidence whatsoever, ever.

After a year of investigation of that nothingburger, they turn the story to the firing of Comey being an obstruction of the nothingburger investigation. But the investigation goes on under McCabe, Wray and special counsel Mueller, producing six more months of nothingburgers.

So now the story is a potential firing of Mueller to stop the 18 month nothingburger Russia-gate. (Meanwhile, it's actually the Clinton campaign/DNC/Fusion GPS who actually "colluded" with Russians to affect the election.)

Well, of course the left wing wants to keep talking about Russian nothingburger investigations. If they couldn't, they might have to actually think about, and talk about, and articulate, and explain, and try to cooperatively legislate . . . (Gasp! How rare!) . . . some actual domestic or foreign policy initiatives that would benefit the American public.

The White House repeated Saturday that President Donald Trump has no intentions of firing Department of Justice special counsel Robert Mueller amid fresh speculation from a congresswoman that he would be doing so.

Just more of the non-stop political leaking to and baiting of the anti-Trump whore media by cynically desperate anti-Trumpers in Congress and the deep state swamp.

First, they can't stand the election results so they make up the phony Russia collusion story out of whole cloth, with no evidence whatsoever, ever.

After a year of investigation of that nothingburger, they turn the story to the firing of Comey being an obstruction of the nothingburger investigation. But the investigation goes on under McCabe, Wray and special counsel Mueller, producing six more months of nothingburgers.

So now the story is a potential firing of Mueller to stop the 18 month nothingburger Russia-gate. (Meanwhile, it's actually the Clinton campaign/DNC/Fusion GPS who actually "colluded" with Russians to affect the election.)

Well, of course the left wing wants to keep talking about Russian nothingburger investigations. If they couldn't, they might have to actually think about, and talk about, and articulate, and explain, and try to cooperatively legislate . . . (Gasp! How rare!) . . . some actual domestic or foreign policy initiatives that would benefit the American public.

Too slowly. Trump has become cover for every bad thing that is happening in the world including the many sins of the media and the Democrats.

Listen. I don't know how this is going to sound to some of you. But hear this. Yesterday, on CNN, the most trusted name in news, it was literally all Omarosa, all day. And night. So there's the Trump administration, and hopefully they're going to be gone soon. But we've had CNN and all the others for decades. I remember not so long ago CNN covered NOTHING .... NOT ONE THING... but a missing airplane FOR AT LEAST A SOLID MONTH.

THERE IS NO HOPE! And it's got nothing the fuck to do with Donald Trump! Except it's all part of this massive clusterfucking of our democracy of which the news media plays a central role which enabled Trump to rise in popularity and to win the presidency.

I personally can't wait for the historic show that Trump's removal will be. Just months ago I was warning that we shouldn't want that by a long shot. But we are well down that road now, and it IS already, as I thought, so bad that the only hope is that it ends quickly and then we can just enjoy the spectacle for a minute before the whole thing gets so sickening we'll all be watching fucking curling on ESPN to detox.

Then, after it's all over, a plane will go missing. And then you're going to know or be reminded how fucked up it really is even without Donald Trump running the country.

Agree, Trump is a result of this crap, not the beginning. People get information from the media, and you can't trust the media.

Got a giggle out of CNN being the most trusted news station..

_________________TALENT

What it takes to play a gay pirate, a gay candymaker, and a gay mad hatter, and still land a role as John Dilinger.

(Meanwhile, it's actually the Clinton campaign/DNC/Fusion GPS who actually "colluded" with Russians to affect the election.)

Out of curiosity, is it your position that the Clinton campaign colluded with Russia to help Trump get elected?

Sneaky girl.

What are now undisputed public facts (not just my position) are that:

-- The Clinton campaign and the DNC, beginning in April 2016, jointly paid up to $12 million to Fusion GPS to have Michael Steele create the "Trump Dossier" as political opposition research.

-- The most salacious (and debunked) allegations in that document are attributed to Russian sources, often within the document itself.

-- Fusion GPS then gave the Trump Dossier to the FBI and leaked it to media sources, one of which published it in full.

In short, and skipping over three layers of cutouts, the Clinton campaign admittedly obtained dirty and phony information from Russian sources (likely for money paid by Steele) about Trump and some other people associated tangentially with his campaign (Michael Cohen, Carter Page).

Was this "collusion" with the Russians to defeat Trump with personal dirt? There is no crime of collusion, but it likely fits the lay term that's been tossed around in the press for 18 months.

The more serious criminal and national security issue is whether the FBI or Mueller used the Trump Dossier as the basis to get FISA warrants against members of Trump's transition team such as Flynn. That's what the FBI and DOJ are currently stonewalling Congress on.

My current position is that I don't think Russia helped anyone get elected or affected the election in any discernible way. It's my legal view, based on currently known facts, that neither Mueller nor anyone else could prove in a court of law, under the beyond a reasonable doubt standard, that Russia in fact committed a campaign-related crime such as hacking. And if Mueller can't prove that, he can't prove any criminal conspiracy between Russia and either campaign.

My current position is that I don't think Russia helped anyone get elected or affected the election in any discernible way. It's my legal view, based on currently known facts, that neither Mueller nor anyone else could prove in a court of law, under the beyond a reasonable doubt standard, that Russia in fact committed a campaign-related crime such as hacking. And if Mueller can't prove that, he can't prove any criminal conspiracy between Russia and either campaign.

The word "criminal" keeps being thrown around. While Mueller is obviously looking for criminal acts, that is not his whole job. He is basically in charge of figuring out what exactly happened and when, and then reporting to congress with it. Which means he is also looking at abuses of power or "collusion" that might not be criminal but would still perchance be grounds for impeachment (which of course would be congress' call after he reports).

Also, not everything he finds needs to be provable "beyond a reasonable doubt" since a lot of his job is not about obtaining criminal convictions. When it comes to impeachment, since it is not about sending someone to prison, the standard is that of the civil courts "preponderance of the evidence".

“There’s been no collusion. But I think he’s going to be fair,” Mr. Trump said of Mr. Mueller.

_________________Is the relinquishment of the trial by jury and the liberty of the press necessary for your liberty? Will the abandonment of your most sacred rights tend to the security of your liberty? Liberty, the greatest of all earthly blessings—give us that precious jewel, and you may take every thing else!… Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel.