"Well the police who train at my dojo tell me, as have every police officer I have ever asked, that somewhere between 70 –80% of the conflicts that they are called to are ones where people are pushing and grapping each other."

The case for police is different. If an altercation occurs a policeman is far less likely to get a full blown attack launched at him than a regular guy. If the policeman does get subjected to this kind of attack, they certainly don't rub or touch pressure points. Gross motor skills take over.

"It allows you to control the situation without major escalation."

I disagreeIf you are involved in an altercation and try to rub a guys pressure points (sorry about that ) you are liable to be eating his fist before you realise the scenario has escalated."

Isnt part of training supposed to be learning how to control your opponent? I read this claim alot from non PP people. You can hit or rub a PP if you control your opponent, which isnt that hard to do.

"I realize hitting and using blunt force is easier and requires less training, but it is not always the answer to every situation."

Who says it's easier and requires less training.

"It is the lowest common demonstrator, because it is the base it requires the least amount of skill and training."

No it doesn't.

"Now you can add skill to blunt force – I teach and stress in every class “foundation skills” – the correct use of biomechanics, breathing, stance etc.. These “foundation skills” apply to all aspects to martial arts from blunt force trauma to finger locks and Kyusho. No technique will be really effective without strong foundation skills to support it."

Great, now we're getting somewhere.

"The whole point behind pressure points is they are the equalizer, and if used correctly can to very effective."

Without the skills of a good delivery system your knowledge of pressure points is of no use. You may know where they are, but without the appropriate skills you will never hit them strongly or accurately enough to have any effect.

"a very petite female student who had been training with us for 3 months was at the university pub and when one of these macho guys grabbed her. She affected the release – it does work if you train."

"If she had no fighting training prior to her time with you then the fact that she got out of the situation unscathed is pure luck. If you're now telling people that with pressure point training and nothing else you can defend yourself you are doing more harm than good. A beginner who is told this may be stupid enough to think he can handle himself and stick his/her nose into a situation he cannot control. There are far too many Walter Mitty type MA's out there already. They generally end up getting badly hurt."

Cant the same be said for any Martial Artist? Even a white belt learning the basic "Block, Punch, Kick" Karate will get hurt if they stick his/her nose into a situation he cannot control. Are you really claiming that there arent students who feel that they can beat up anyone after just a few months of training? This isnt solely PP students

"I believe you are misleading children and their parents, women and small men if you think correctly executed blunt force is the answer. Go train in a gym to get fit or train to defend yourself with pressure point applications ."

If you look at Martial Arts in general arent all systems designed to be a small person vs a bigger person art? Do you honestly believe that every Oriental Master was bigger and stronger than their Western oppponents? Look at the founder of Isshinryu or Aikido neither one of them is big. They had to use techniques other than blunt force trama.

As I said before, without the basic delivery system the pressure points won't work. To tell women/children that these are the great equalizer is to put them in a more dangerous situation than if they knew nothing. To fight effectively you need to be fit, you need a good delivery system, you need to be good at your system, you need to have trained in other systems. If you then add to that knowledge and ability base by learning pressure points, fine.

Here I agree with you. You need a good foundation to add PP theory to. I also think that you should be trained in PP theory right from day one. Why "block" when you can attack a PP point on your opponents arm? I think it is just rethinking some of the basic techniques that are being taught

2 things: First, this is an old thread which was heated enough at the time; it doesn't need resurrecting. Second, most Martial Artists do not have a problem with PP in general - that is, that some places hurt more than others. John's point was simply that he did not like the idea of training people to 'rub' or 'touch' supposed PP, rather than teaching people to punch or kick.

The only place that anyone disagrees in this thread is in the original problem: the idea of 'death touches' or knock-out touches which do not rely on blunt force trauma at all. In this case, I recommend that posters review the scientific literature on the subject and then start a new post to discuss it, rather than bringing up a two-year old thread.

Quote:Reading Patrick Mc Carthy's translation of the bushibi, I see an explanation of the much vaunted "death touch". This paticular explanation goes on to say that death occurs after the strike causes severe internal hemorraging or a blood clot.

This makes sense, but it implies that i) dim mak can only be done after a hard strike, ii) implies nothing about weakening blows or fire points, iii) implies that (most) death touch points are blood gates, not nerve points in the sense of paralysing, neurological shutdown or pain points.

Thoughts?

Much better to learn to throw a solid knockout punch than to worry about creating blood clots, in my opinion.