But I’m sure you are familiar with the excitement that comes along when you have a new GF.

In other words, I’ve been somewhat distracted from the computer lately, and in the last couple of weeks in particular, mostly because…well…I’m sure you understand! But just like in Hockey - where injuries are absolutely NO excuse for losing in the Stanley Cup Finals – neither is my half-assed explanation.

Anyway, the 96 hr cold-rise crust was an okay one. Nothing really to write home about (didn’t even take any pics). I think the window for this particular crust lies somewhere between 40 – 60 hrs max. I think it’s alright as a left-over crust but you might want to find out for yourself and repeat the same experiment and see which results you achieve.

But I second Peter’s opinion in regards to bake time, temp and hydration. I wish I was able to fire up the LBE and check for myself but it’s still very windy in the Bay Area, especially at night and that’s a freakin’ bummer!

But from a common sense point of view, I think a higher hydration is a must if you use temps in excess of perhaps 700° F for a NY-style pizza; and even in a home setting where you’re forced to longer bake times. And if sugar is used, reduce the amount to prevent excess coloration.

Marcello’s and Totonno’s are two different crusts, even though I never had the pleasure to try the Totonno’s pies. But from what I have read, seen and heard, Totonno’s has a fine balance between the crust being light and having a certain chewiness and crunch to it. I honestly believe that they use some sort of an altered bread recipe for their dough, maybe. Take a closer look at those vids and you’ll see what I mean…the outside rim has an even coloration.

Marcello’s is a different animal.

Their crust is first of all baked in a completely different oven, at a much lower temp and different surface compared to the Totonno’s coal-fired oven. Do both ovens require a different dough formula? I like to believe so. But I don’t think the hydration would change that much, given the high heat of the Totonno’s oven albeit a shorter bake time and the Marcello’s longer bake time at a lower temp. I’d say Peter was very accurate with his guess in one of his replies here in this thread, by suggesting to me to raise the hydration by a notch.

Combining both of those crusts into one is what I’d like to call a “Par excellence” once that feat is achieved. Until then I’ll keep experimenting with the formula.

P.S.: I apologize for any typos upfront................mmmppphhhhh!

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Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein

There is no doubt about the high hydration doughs being used where better skills are needed but does that neccessarly translate into a superior product? I've always had this tendency to shoot for higher hydration, dunno why really but after trying a low hydration dough and then watching this video and seeing how the dough of an NY elite pizzeria feels, looked either low hydration or too cold. It also produces a dense crust. I'm just thinking I should try the low hydration as an option and stop thinking of it as an inferior product.

I will be making 2 identical pies in everything except for hydration. Will report.

Saad,

Different people will have different ideas on whether better dough handling skills and higher hydration doughs lead to a superior product. With my home oven, I am limited temperature-wise so I don't go overboard on the hydration. Often when I make very high hydration doughs it is to see how they behave in my oven and whether I can get a pizza good enough to make again. I also learn more about the performance and other characteristics of the doughs. I have also discovered that the most robust and best handling doughs, whatever their hydration, don't always translate into the best crusts. Some of the best crusts I have made were from doughs that I thought were challenged as I worked them to form skins.

I have also learned that I cannot tell the hydration of a dough just from videos, such as the one you referenced. I agree that the dough that Lawrence and Mario use in the video appears to be on the low side from a hydration standpoint, especially where Lawrence holds the skin without its stretching as he instructs Mario (at about the 1:56 mark), but it is still possible that the dough is of high hydration but with little fermentation time (room temperature or cold) and/or little bench warm-up time. Even in your case when you make the two doughs with the hydration being the only difference, the final dough and baking results may be different simply because the higher hydration dough (e.g., 65%) will ferment faster than the lower hydration dough (e.g., 60%). That means that the enzymes that attack gluten will also work faster at degrading the gluten structure of the higher hydration dough. The two doughs are also likely to feel different when you use them and produce different results in the oven beyond the effects of the hydration alone (mainly the textural effects). If you use identical containers to store the doughs during fermentation, you are also likely to see the higher hydration dough spread more and faster than the other dough.

I noticed in the video that Lawrence slaps, presses and pounds the pre-flattened dough on the counter with his hands for about 11 seconds (from 1:41 to 1:52), to further flatten the skin. That might account for at least some of the "dense" crust characteristic that you noted. I will leave to you to decide whether you want to simulate this technique with your two dough balls.

The people who tried the two pies I made were all very impressed with the crust, and especially Marta, a lady from the Naples region and her friend Tony, also from Italy. She said the crust, after literally pulling it apart, labeled it as "superb" and some of the best she's had outside of Italy. She said the pizza reminded her of a cross between the Roman and Neapolitan types, which I, in turn, took as a big compliment. There were people from 12 different nations present, France, Italy, Germany, Bulgaria, Mexico, Peru, US, Jamaica, etc. and they all loved the two pies. One woman kept saying "It's a moneymaker, it's a moneymaker".

Anyway, the first pizza was an all veggie, topped with Kalamata olives, artichokes, fresh garlic, red bellers, mushrooms and marinated feta cheese and the second one was an all meat (ham, pepperoni, Italian sausage) with a layer of mushrooms and some fresh garlic tossed onto it for good measure.

Unfortunately, I did not get to take any pics of the two pizzas whatsoever because they were gone so fast, but I did manage to have some dough left over and took a couple of cross section pics of the crust, albeit a day later and with an extended fermentation time of 24 hrs. Nonetheless, the crust was very similar to the ones from the party.

As for the cheese, I used a combo of TJ's whole milk mozzarella, low-moisture mozzarella and fresh mozzarella, laced with a little bit of kosher salt after shredded to prevent excess sticking. Bake times for both were 8 mins with an additional minute under the broiler.

Mike, good lookin' stuff! Looks like some corn on the last slice, very ''Mexicana''.

I made a great pepperoni NY pie too recently, also a similar situation to yours in the time it lasted. The crust was tender and fantastic! What oven spring! What char! I could not believe how good it looked and tasted, everyone raved for hours. I was able to get this shot off in time so you can hopefully get an idea.

^ Mike, that looks great! You're such a pro in your craft, thus I understand your lack of comment on my pizza above. It's like Mozart telling Salieri "yeah, good song ya wrote there". So I get it completely.

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"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

^ Mike, that looks great! You're such a pro in your craft, thus I understand your lack of comment on my pizza above. It's like Mozart telling Salieri "yeah, good song ya wrote there". So I get it completely.

Okay hold on sec...

Is your pizza underneath that slice of salami?

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Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein

That leftover slice looks really like a pepper salami to me but if you say it's a pepperoni than it's a pepperoni. And if it's the only leftover from your pie, than I'll say what Salieri told Mozart during a performance of "The Magic Flute"...

..."Bravo! Bello! And bellissimo!

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Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein

See I listen to you as I trust your judgment, only to find you are messin' with my head! I suppose this amuses you, leading me to inevitable disastrous results to provide the hilarity you seek at my expense, well enough is enough! As you can surely guess this pizza was terrible!

I have been using the formula from Reply #10 of this thread for a few weeks now. First, I want to say, its been working out great. My only question is, when you take the dough out of the mixer, in what form is it? After a few minutes of mixing, I go from a nice ball to a gelatenous mess. This does not seem to effect the final quality of the dough, but I was just wondering what yours looked like out of the mixer bowl?

I never encountered anything like that, to be honest. But it's a wet dough, though.

I have been following this:

"Pour water in mixing bowl. Dissolve salt & sugar in water. Sift in 50% of the flour mix and all the yeast. And mix with paddle until a smooth batter has formed. Rest for 30 mins. Sift in rest of the flour and add the oil. Switch to dough hook and combine everything, 5 mins/Speed 1. Rest for 10 mins. Knead for 10 mins on Speed 2, rest for another 5 mins. Knead again for 10 mins on Speed 2. The dough temp was 80° F. Ball it; let rest for 10 min. Put in fridge for 1 hour. Take out and immediately divide into three 400 gr. balls and let proof (2.5hrs/covered) or put one or two balls back in fridge for next day use."

I have no trouble forming it into balls, its just that it needs to be essentially poured out of the mixing bowl. My other formulas, of similar hydration, do not do this, I'm just a bit confused.

A friend of mine brought back some "Giusto's White Flour - unbleached - Hi-Protein with Gluten" (pic attached) and I am wondering if this is the same as the "Ultimate Performer" stuff? In case it matters, he bought it at Andy's, a roadside Grocer in Sonoma County (Wine Country).

I checked with Giusto's website but couldn't find anything definite on it. Maybe Andy's just labels it in a different way. Either way, I made some dough tonight and tried out the new flour. So far, I'm impressed. But I have said that before only to have to reverse my judgment...so let's just see what's gonna happen this time.

Well, I'm doing a 48hr cold-rise (bulk) right now. I'm curious how the dough's gonna hold up and how its characteristics will be.

I know I'm late with the follow-up post regarding the performance of the Giusto's flour...but you guys know how it is,...we need more time! A 24hr day isn't enough any longer.

In my case it's time and the following...

My new girlfriend keeps me busy, and I'm completely stoked about her, if I may say so myself , the family has to have its share and then there's is work.

I spare you the details, though.

Anyway, with the Giusto's flour I thought I'd go back to a simpler approach,...where less is occasionally more. I made enough dough for four 12" pizzas, decided to go without "6 in 1" as a base for the sauce and just use three core ingredients, besides the tomatoes which were San Marzanos. Freshly minced garlic, dry oregano and kosher salt...that's it.

The Giusto's flour was very impressive to work with. Very easy to stretch and it took the hydration of 64% easily. However, it is not a flour that browns nicely despite the sugar I added. The finished crust, though, is a total different story.

It was a 48hr cold rise (bulk) and then divided into four individual balls at 287grs. each.

The amount of toppings was also adjusted to a ‘lighter load’ and the pizza you see below is topped with fresh and whole milk mozzarella, portobellini mushrooms, fresh garlic & basil, artichokes and mild Italian sausage. Sounds like a lot but it actually wasn’t. Bake time was around 7-8 mins but no broiler this time.

Overall, it was a very light pizza. The crust was thin, light and airy. The outside crust had a nice crunch to it, and in combination with the soft chewiness of the inside, provided a great balance. I topped it with a simple sauce and cheese combo. In regards to the cheese, I’ll try a Provolone/fresh Mozzarella combination next. I just didn’t like the coloration and was hoping for a little more ‘charness’ – if that’s even a word – on the cornicione.

Unfortunately I didn’t get to take pics of the bottom of the crust since it was a promised pizza for one of my neighbors, but it had some slightly charred spots

Am I missing something, Essen? I just read through the entire 37 pages of the LBE thread, and how you were a big part of making that successful, but here I see you have been using the oven for the Lehmann dough. Do the two not mix? I have been cooking my Lehmann dough on a charcoal grill, but was ready to take the plunge and build the LBE, now I'm confused... Thanks.

I have tried the Lehmann dough in the LBE and wasn't too happy about the way it turned out. So I focused more on a dough that comes close to the NY-style pizza, baked in a regular home oven. Another reason that I haven't used the LBE lately was the windy weather up here in the Bay Area. Especially at night, where I live, the fog rolls in with lots of wind and chilly temps so firing up the LBE wasn't really an option, until now...Indian Summer is coming with warmer temps and calmer winds.

But if you don't have those conditions where you live, built the thing!

Correction:

Quote

It was a 48hr cold rise (bulk) and then divided into three individual balls at 387grs. each.

In my previous post I stated the above, which is wrong. My bad, I got my notes mixed up. I meant to say to divide it into four individual balls at 287 gr. each.

Sorry for the confusion. I have since corrected it.

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Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein

I just tried to make a NY style in the oven, but when i went to slide it from screen to stone, it slid a bit too far and ended up all over the back and bottom of the oven...now to get the smell out of the house before the wife gets home...i'm sure glad it didn't catch on fire.

I just tried to make a NY style in the oven, but when i went to slide it from screen to stone, it slid a bit too far and ended up all over the back and bottom of the oven...now to get the smell out of the house before the wife gets home...i'm sure glad it didn't catch on fire.

Sigh, guess i'll have Subway tonight.

I don't think the Lehman NY dough is really made for high-temp ovens. My LBE goes up to 900° F and beyond and the pies just burnt in the beginning. I had to adjust the formula and use different flour, such as the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it can't be done, but you'd have to make some changes if you want to use it in the LBE.

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Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein