Yes, but what Musher is questioning is what is 'humane' ? It is not something that can be written as a prescription. Every situation is unique and needs to be handled as such. For example ... would it be inhumane to inflict pain on a dog to save his life?? In an emergency situation ... no other choice? Indirectly, an e collar could do just that. I have learned in life to never be blinkered', especially with dogs and horses.

I wouldn't dream of deliberately inflicting pain or discomfort on either dogs or kids.

No need to because they respond so well to other methods of teaching

But you said you believe in inflicting as little discomfort as humanely possible. Therefore you accept that you do inflict discomfort occasionally, sometimes or frequently? I have inflicted pain many many times on countless dogs - administering ear drops, wormers, cleaning out ears, squeezing anal glands, removing thorns from paws. I am sure you have done all these things too Chris.

If dogs are sensitively trained, they will work their hearts out for you. Why would anyone want to replace this willingness with compliance through fear?

Yes I agree ... with most dogs. But northern breeds ARE more challenging and demanding. Frequently they have very little desire to please you whatsoever!! That said, of course there is absolutely nothing to gain to train through fear. However, my own PERSONAL experience with an e collar is that correctly used in the right way for the right reason not only was it a resounding success, I never saw any sign of fear whatsoever. Achieving a result through inflicting fear will NEVER work with highly intelligent northern breeds, more even than non-northern's.

Northern breeds are highly driven but they feel pain and discomfort like any other breed of dog. Most dogs will not show pain or discomfort until they truly cannot hide it any longer because it's a sign of weakness and it's inherent in their make-up that to show signs of weakness is highly dangerous.

Similarly with fear.

Pain will work eventually, but what a diabolical way to treat trusting animals who share their lives with us

Northern breeds are highly driven but they feel pain and discomfort like any other breed of dog. Most dogs will not show pain or discomfort until they truly cannot hide it any longer because it's a sign of weakness and it's inherent in their make-up that to show signs of weakness is highly dangerous.

Similarly with fear.

Pain will work eventually, but what a diabolical way to treat trusting animals who share their lives with us

possibly ... I am not very good at explaining what I think very clearly or concisely! Northern breeds - and in particular wolf crosses - are indeed very highly driven. They have a very high prey drive and as you rightly say are reluctant to show any sign of weakness - I disagree with you that this applies to most dogs. All the non-northern dogs I have ever owned have been wimps - and these include some tough breeds like labradors, german pointers and i would include chihuahuas in this as well!! Feisty little buggers they are and as tough as nuts if allowed to be proper dogs instead of pampered pooches dressed up in handbags!

I truly cannot think of anything that my wolfie boys were scared of or fearful of. Not fireworks, not thunder, lightening, charging herds of cattle, horses, nothing. And certainly not a bit of static from their collar. Both Tai and Ben, the 2 wolf crosses we used an e collar on, only required 1 zap to prevent them from dangerous and undesirable behaviour - in Tai's case killing hens (which had escaped and would hide under the hedge) and in Ben's case from a poor recall. I really do object to being told I am cruel, and diabolical!! What we achieved with Ben would have been not only impossible but very, very dangerous had we treated him harshly or diabolically. A dog whom we adored and miss dreadfully - I take great exception to being accused of being cruel when you have never met Ben or Tai for that matter. I believe being a good responsible dog owner means never using the never word - never say never, you never know what you may be faced with.

We could have had Ben put down - that of course would have been so much kinder than causing him a second of discomfort.