1 <DAY FIVE Tuesday, 18th January 2000 2(10.30 a.m.) 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving, I have been provided with a 4document that you, I understand, want to make some mention 5of. 6MR IRVING: Yes, if I may address the court on this. The only 7important one I want to draw your attention to is page 10. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before you do, can I just mention two things 9which will take a few minutes? Do sit down. The first is 10the transcription which, once they have been edited, are 11extremely useful and I think it is extraordinary that it 12can be done so well. 13MR RAMPTON: So do I. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: But it did strike me, reading yesterday's 15transcript, that the first 20 minutes of yesterday was 16what you might call administrative discussion, and I think 17it is a waste of energy to have that transcribed. 18MR RAMPTON: Yes. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Unless either of you disagree, I was going to 20suggest that in future when we have that kind of 21discussion we can just, as it were, stand down the lady 22who is doing the transcribing, and save her energy. 23MR IRVING: Except, my Lord, for any conclusions that are 24reached. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course, and any what you might call 26substantive discussion about the issues.

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1MR RAMPTON: Can I also suggest this? If at any stage your 2Lordship makes rulings which you may have to -- I hope not 3but it does happen -- they be transcribed separately as a 4separate document. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, if and when we come to that, that is a 6very good idea. 7MR RAMPTON: It worked very well last time that this lady was 8in charge of one of my cases. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I also, before Mr Irving deals with this 10document, ask you, Mr Rampton, to help me as to where we 11are at the moment. 12MR RAMPTON: Where are we going? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Can I just tell you what my concern 14is. It is that I should know at every stage, if possible, 15to what issue the evidence is directed. Your 16cross-examination started out with the topic of the 17killing of the Jews from Berlin. 18MR RAMPTON: Yes. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: But it has now moved on to the shootings on 20the Eastern Front. 21MR RAMPTON: Yes. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just trying to tie it in with your 23summary of case. I want to make sure I have understood 24correctly, because the section on shootings on the Eastern 25Front is in the part of your summary of case which deals 26with Auschwitz, whereas, as I understand it, the evidence

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1that you are eliciting from Mr Irving at the moment is 2really directed mainly to the issue of Hitler's knowledge. 3MR RAMPTON: The trouble is, of course, that it has both sides 4to it, as does gassing. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because your case is, just so that 6I understand, that the mass shootings, were a prelude to 7an alternative way of killing Jews, namely gassing. 8MR RAMPTON: Largely speaking but by no means entirely, gassing 9took over from shooting. Both are features of what is 10called the Holocaust and both happened on such a scale, 11logistically speaking and military speaking, that they 12must have come from headquarters, so the whole thing locks 13together. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: That has helped me understand how the case is 15put. 16MR RAMPTON: Apart from one or two fiddly things which always 17happen arising from yesterday, I am going to deal with the 18table talks such as remain, not many. Then I am going to 19go on to what happened next, as it were, 42 onwards to 20about September 42. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: It will, I think, sometimes help me if one 22can see the big picture, perhaps by way of a few prefatory 23questions, and then go to the individual documents. 24MR RAMPTON: One of the fiddly but necessary features in all of 25this is that one repeatedly has to make reference to what 26Mr Irving himself has said about these things ----

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, of course. 2MR RAMPTON: --- which clouds the picture, but is unavoidable. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. I quite understand that. Yes, 4thank you. Mr Irving, do you want to say anything about 5that exchange? It was really to clarify my own 6understanding of where exactly we are going to and getting 7to with the evidence. 8MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord. What we in Riding call a topic 9paragraph would be useful. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: It would certainly help me and it might even 11be that it will help you. It might be that it is right 12that you should have the opportunity to comment on the 13general proposition as well as the particular proposition. 14MR IRVING: Very well. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: You want to say something about this 16document? 17MR IRVING: My Lord, I referred yesterday to the fact that 18I relied on the Weidenfeld translation of Hitler's table 19talk. It is completely proper that I should produce that 20translation to you, which is page 2. You will see it from 21the rostrum at the Reichstag, and so on. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 23MR IRVING: I do not attach anything in particular but, for 24reasons of procedure, I should have shown that to you, 25having averred that I had used that translation. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see. Thank you very much.