And no there is no hidden agenda from me. Please do not insinuate that there is. I find it offensive.

You may not have a hidden agenda - but many people do.

Electric shock also fails in many cases causing extreme suffering. The video can show selection bias - not showing what happens when animals don't get shocked properly. Its not like there is a tag on each animal quoting from their afterlife saying:
"i lost consciousness quickly after my carotid was sliced and has 1/10 pain"
"My neck was not cut properly, I bled and did not lose consciousness until 10 mins later and had 11/10 pain"
"The electrocution didn't work for me, my nerves felt like fire, eventually some more electrocution made be tingle to sleep - I felt 11/10 pain"
"As soon as that electric thing hit me I was a gone - I felt 1/10 pain"
"Well the shock wasn't all that bad for me, but the abattoir conditions and transportation was 11/10 pain"

Some people might indeed have hidden agendas, but I think countries such as Denmark and Norway genuinely have the animals interests at heart.

The evidence seems to be water bath stunning for chickens IS WORSE than Halal/Kosher meat.

So what is it going to be ? Only buy kosher chickens but perhaps not sure about the cow ? Video each cow before its slaughter and decide is the cow YOUR eating has a messy halal execution or multiple arrhythmia's and epileptic seizures pre- slaughter ? I have seen other video's of Kosher slaughter with animals losing consciousness in a few seconds - I've also seen some of the disturbing ones - on both sides. I think only vegetarians win the debate.

I exclude fish here because it is not clear that the term "suffering" applies in the same way as mammals and birds - but this is controversial.
This anti-angling website builds a case that they do have some similar brain structures:http://www.fishpain.com/fish-and-pain-br...ctures.htm

Unfortunately I cannot watch the video because I get a message saying that an error occurred, please try again later. So I will have to take it on faith that stunning with 'electrical water-bath systems' is not effective in minimising suffering.

But this effectively is a false dichotomy. There are other methods. The video I posted started by saying the following:

Quote:The traditional British slaughter method.
The animal has a bolt fired into it's (sic) head
rendering it instantaneously unconscious.
It barely knows there is anything wrong.

At 0:19 you see the bolt being delivered. At 0:22 you see a motionless cow come into view on the floor.

It is not beyond our technology to destroy the brain of a cow cheaply and effectively in less than a second. It is not beyond a modern society's means to make sure that this is enforced.

If muslims and jews want to have livestock hung upside down with its throat cut to drain the blood, then there is no reason not to if the cow is already dead. But religious dogma not only insists that livestock should be killed by having its throat slit, but goes so far as to insist that stunning does not happen before the halal slaughter, even though this is shown to be more humane and makes no difference to the end product. Start by putting "bolt halal" into google scholar if you want to read the papers yourself.

This is unnecesary extra suffering caused on a massive scale to sentient creatures solely because some people think that their ancient religious belief should take precedence over scientific rigorous observational based evidence. More so than if the halal and kosher slaughtered meat was only going to be consumed by practioners of those respective faiths because it opens up a loophole allowing companies to cut costs. Even a law saying that all halal and kosher slaughtered meat must be labelled as such would be better than nothing because then people could vote with their purchasing decisions.

(15-03-2014 12:37 PM)Mathilda Wrote: Unfortunately I cannot watch the video because I get a message saying that an error occurred, please try again later. So I will have to take it on faith that stunning with 'electrical water-bath systems' is not effective in minimising suffering.

But this effectively is a false dichotomy. There are other methods. The video I posted started by saying the following:

Quote:The traditional British slaughter method.
The animal has a bolt fired into it's (sic) head
rendering it instantaneously unconscious.
It barely knows there is anything wrong.

At 0:19 you see the bolt being delivered. At 0:22 you see a motionless cow come into view on the floor.

It is not beyond our technology to destroy the brain of a cow cheaply and effectively in less than a second. It is not beyond a modern society's means to make sure that this is enforced.

If muslims and jews want to have livestock hung upside down with its throat cut to drain the blood, then there is no reason not to if the cow is already dead. But religious dogma not only insists that livestock should be killed by having its throat slit, but goes so far as to insist that stunning does not happen before the halal slaughter, even though this is shown to be more humane and makes no difference to the end product. Start by putting "bolt halal" into google scholar if you want to read the papers yourself.

This is unnecesary extra suffering caused on a massive scale to sentient creatures solely because some people think that their ancient religious belief should take precedence over scientific rigorous observational based evidence. More so than if the halal and kosher slaughtered meat was only going to be consumed by practioners of those respective faiths because it opens up a loophole allowing companies to cut costs. Even a law saying that all halal and kosher slaughtered meat must be labelled as such would be better than nothing because then people could vote with their purchasing decisions.

If you watched the video it shows the so called "bolt stunning" to be far from instantaneous - and the video is based on British slaughter of lambs. Some of the lambs are still convulsing well after being "stunned". Of course I don't know what the lambs actually experience whilst convulsing - perhaps it is unconscious reflex, perhaps it is profound pain.

There are other methods in development and potential I heard on a BBC radio 4 debate - something like depressurization chambers or "controlled atmospheric killing"- but at the end of the day any industrialized meat production has cruelty - some animals will not be shocked properly (as the video shows) and some animals may remain conscious after neck is cut (as anti-Halal/kosher video shows).

Beware of selection bias in the video's and hidden agenda's of the reporters - it is easy to pick and choose (confirmation/selection bias) a bolt stunning which goes wrong or a halal/kosher cutting which doesn't kill instantaneously or to mix and match depending on your view. (show a 'perfect stunning' followed by the 'worst' Halal cases')
Again - if concerned be a vegetarian, the animals don't come with a tag giving an individual rating on how much pain they suffered from transportation to slaughter.
As it goes I am more convinced that water electrocution of chickens has more cruelty and is worse for the consumer than kosher/halal. (chickens vomit & defecate in the water as they are stunned - quite nasty to say the least !!!!)
Many references for this.

(15-03-2014 12:37 PM)Mathilda Wrote: Unfortunately I cannot watch the video because I get a message saying that an error occurred, please try again later. So I will have to take it on faith that stunning with 'electrical water-bath systems' is not effective in minimising suffering.

But this effectively is a false dichotomy. There are other methods. The video I posted started by saying the following:

At 0:19 you see the bolt being delivered. At 0:22 you see a motionless cow come into view on the floor.

It is not beyond our technology to destroy the brain of a cow cheaply and effectively in less than a second. It is not beyond a modern society's means to make sure that this is enforced.

If muslims and jews want to have livestock hung upside down with its throat cut to drain the blood, then there is no reason not to if the cow is already dead. But religious dogma not only insists that livestock should be killed by having its throat slit, but goes so far as to insist that stunning does not happen before the halal slaughter, even though this is shown to be more humane and makes no difference to the end product. Start by putting "bolt halal" into google scholar if you want to read the papers yourself.

This is unnecesary extra suffering caused on a massive scale to sentient creatures solely because some people think that their ancient religious belief should take precedence over scientific rigorous observational based evidence. More so than if the halal and kosher slaughtered meat was only going to be consumed by practioners of those respective faiths because it opens up a loophole allowing companies to cut costs. Even a law saying that all halal and kosher slaughtered meat must be labelled as such would be better than nothing because then people could vote with their purchasing decisions.

If you watched the video it shows the so called "bolt stunning" to be far from instantaneous - and the video is based on British slaughter of lambs. Some of the lambs are still convulsing well after being "stunned". Of course I don't know what the lambs actually experience whilst convulsing - perhaps it is unconscious reflex, perhaps it is profound pain.

There are other methods in development and potential I heard on a BBC radio 4 debate - something like depressurization chambers or "controlled atmospheric killing"- but at the end of the day any industrialized meat production has cruelty - some animals will not be shocked properly (as the video shows) and some animals may remain conscious after neck is cut (as anti-Halal/kosher video shows).

Beware of selection bias in the video's and hidden agenda's of the reporters - it is easy to pick and choose (confirmation/selection bias) a bolt stunning which goes wrong or a halal/kosher cutting which doesn't kill instantaneously or to mix and match depending on your view. (show a 'perfect stunning' followed by the 'worst' Halal cases')
Again - if concerned be a vegetarian, the animals don't come with a tag giving an individual rating on how much pain they suffered from transportation to slaughter.
As it goes I am more convinced that water electrocution of chickens has more cruelty and is worse for the consumer than kosher/halal. (chickens vomit & defecate in the water as they are stunned - quite nasty to say the least !!!!)
Many references for this.

Have you been to a slaughterhouse? I have and with the bolt method unless it is missed it is a one and done instant kill. If it misses it can get messy but it is still faster and more humane than Halal or Kosher technique. Just because you want to see prejudice in something does not mean it is there.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

(15-03-2014 12:37 PM)Mathilda Wrote: Unfortunately I cannot watch the video because I get a message saying that an error occurred, please try again later. So I will have to take it on faith that stunning with 'electrical water-bath systems' is not effective in minimising suffering.

But this effectively is a false dichotomy. There are other methods. The video I posted started by saying the following:

At 0:19 you see the bolt being delivered. At 0:22 you see a motionless cow come into view on the floor.

It is not beyond our technology to destroy the brain of a cow cheaply and effectively in less than a second. It is not beyond a modern society's means to make sure that this is enforced.

If muslims and jews want to have livestock hung upside down with its throat cut to drain the blood, then there is no reason not to if the cow is already dead. But religious dogma not only insists that livestock should be killed by having its throat slit, but goes so far as to insist that stunning does not happen before the halal slaughter, even though this is shown to be more humane and makes no difference to the end product. Start by putting "bolt halal" into google scholar if you want to read the papers yourself.

This is unnecesary extra suffering caused on a massive scale to sentient creatures solely because some people think that their ancient religious belief should take precedence over scientific rigorous observational based evidence. More so than if the halal and kosher slaughtered meat was only going to be consumed by practioners of those respective faiths because it opens up a loophole allowing companies to cut costs. Even a law saying that all halal and kosher slaughtered meat must be labelled as such would be better than nothing because then people could vote with their purchasing decisions.

If you watched the video it shows the so called "bolt stunning" to be far from instantaneous - and the video is based on British slaughter of lambs. Some of the lambs are still convulsing well after being "stunned". Of course I don't know what the lambs actually experience whilst convulsing - perhaps it is unconscious reflex, perhaps it is profound pain.

There are other methods in development and potential I heard on a BBC radio 4 debate - something like depressurization chambers or "controlled atmospheric killing"- but at the end of the day any industrialized meat production has cruelty - some animals will not be shocked properly (as the video shows) and some animals may remain conscious after neck is cut (as anti-Halal/kosher video shows).

Beware of selection bias in the video's and hidden agenda's of the reporters - it is easy to pick and choose (confirmation/selection bias) a bolt stunning which goes wrong or a halal/kosher cutting which doesn't kill instantaneously or to mix and match depending on your view. (show a 'perfect stunning' followed by the 'worst' Halal cases')
Again - if concerned be a vegetarian, the animals don't come with a tag giving an individual rating on how much pain they suffered from transportation to slaughter.
As it goes I am more convinced that water electrocution of chickens has more cruelty and is worse for the consumer than kosher/halal. (chickens vomit & defecate in the water as they are stunned - quite nasty to say the least !!!!)
Many references for this.

You can't judge how humane an execution method is based on "convulsions" from electric shocks, or the animal defecating itself.

Humans do the same thing postmortem. Our bowels release, and our nervous systems will continue to register a shock after loss of consciousness.

Chickens are known to continue running around with their head cut off, hence the phrase.

The only reason Halal and Kosher traditions exist, is that they efficiently exsanguinate an animal before butchery. The heart continues to pump, blood drains faster, meat is less likely to spoil without blood.

As noted, these are Bronze Age
Traditions that could be effectively replaced, while retaining the traditional ritual element, and there's no good reason for them not to be.

But I agree on the water electrocution point.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

(15-03-2014 03:39 PM)Baruch Wrote: If you watched the video it shows the so called "bolt stunning" to be far from instantaneous - and the video is based on British slaughter of lambs. Some of the lambs are still convulsing well after being "stunned". Of course I don't know what the lambs actually experience whilst convulsing - perhaps it is unconscious reflex, perhaps it is profound pain.

There are other methods in development and potential I heard on a BBC radio 4 debate - something like depressurization chambers or "controlled atmospheric killing"- but at the end of the day any industrialized meat production has cruelty - some animals will not be shocked properly (as the video shows) and some animals may remain conscious after neck is cut (as anti-Halal/kosher video shows).

Beware of selection bias in the video's and hidden agenda's of the reporters - it is easy to pick and choose (confirmation/selection bias) a bolt stunning which goes wrong or a halal/kosher cutting which doesn't kill instantaneously or to mix and match depending on your view. (show a 'perfect stunning' followed by the 'worst' Halal cases')
Again - if concerned be a vegetarian, the animals don't come with a tag giving an individual rating on how much pain they suffered from transportation to slaughter.
As it goes I am more convinced that water electrocution of chickens has more cruelty and is worse for the consumer than kosher/halal. (chickens vomit & defecate in the water as they are stunned - quite nasty to say the least !!!!)
Many references for this.

You can't judge how humane an execution method is based on "convulsions" from electric shocks, or the animal defecating itself.

Humans do the same thing postmortem. Our bowels release, and our nervous systems will continue to register a shock after loss of consciousness.

Chickens are known to continue running around with their head cut off, hence the phrase.

The only reason Halal and Kosher traditions exist, is that they efficiently exsanguinate an animal before butchery. The heart continues to pump, blood drains faster, meat is less likely to spoil without blood.

As noted, these are Bronze Age
Traditions that could be effectively replaced, while retaining the traditional ritual element, and there's no good reason for them not to be.

But I agree on the water electrocution point.

Likewise it is not clear if you can judge the halal/kosher execution method via similar means.
The lack of blood pressure from the blood loss would cause loss of consciousness within seconds but muscles can still reflexively contract. We know this when we faint but the body can spasm for minutes later in medicine.
The stunning may just hide the reflexive motion of the muscles making it look "quieter".
If someone is injected suxamethonium (depolarizing neuro-muscular blocker causing paralysis) or some other nerve block and then tortured - they will show no struggle - the muscles will be relaxed, but the person is still tortured and feels pain.
Likewise stunning can give the appearance of a "quieter end" just because the muscles are unable to function reflexively.

We know human decapitated heads have been claimed to move, twitch, blink and show emotional expressions seconds after decapitation - how conscious are they ? (we dont know)

If it is ambiguous and equivocal as to the best method for reliably slaughtering animals in a way that minimises suffering, then decision as to which method is used should be based on impartial, reproducible, falsifiable and objective scientific research. Decisions should not be based on religious dogma derived from an age before the enlightenment and the discovery of the scientific method.

Many countries have already been through this process and have set laws that seek to reliably minimise suffering based on such evidence. Advocates of Halal and kosher slaughter seek an exemption from this process.