Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.

The silence on this board regarding the uprising in Iran and Bahrain is deafening. Egypt toppled a pro-American dictator and the "masses" got a hard on, Iranians are trying to topple a darling of the masses since he is anti-West, so Iranians won't find support amongst Muslims.

Bahrain is yet another, Shias trying to topple a Sunni regime.......good luck, don't count on support from the masses !

Although the citizens are fighting a common and worthy cause of freedom and representation in each case, their supporters are not freedom lovers necessarily.

Pro-American dictators are much worse than any other kind of dictators. Besides, protests against anti american dictators might be organized by... you know who.. right? Also, we have you to worry about anti american dictators. The rest of us will worry about the other kind.

FB, please do not get carried away by your pompous and self-righeous love of freedom. We know how deep that feeling runs. Peoples uprising in all the middle eastern countries must be applauded and supported. Iran is as much a brutal theocracy as Saudi Arabia and other US's "sons of bitches" are. Until the Iranian revolution, the Shah was also a darling SOB. It's just too bad that the mullahs refused to play along. Are you so blind or delusional that you think US really cares about freedom and democracy? All it cares about is "stability" so that it can make the world safe US for investment and profit. The only business of America is business. You would be a fool to mouth the standard imperialist rhetoric of freedom, democracy and human rights.

If the people of Iran need freedoms and basics rights then so do the people of Saudi Arabia and other Arab despots which US supports. At least Iran has one redeeming feature, it is not an imperialist ass licker. So, all thinking people - not just the muslims - must have a nuanced postion regarding Iran: They must support the Iranian people in their struggle for basic freedoms, but at the same time must support the Iranian government against its anti-imperialist stand. Iranian mullahs are evil and so are the US imnperialists.

FB, beyond giving you a dose of your own medicine, the truth is that Gaddafi's actions cannot be condemned enough. How much of that outrage appears on this board is immaterial. As I mentioned earlier on this thread all movements towards basic freedoms and rights must be supported.

Regarding Libya the situation is really grave. What was achieved through relatively peaceful uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt may well be undone by the brutal violence unleashed by an unhinged and delusional dictator of Libya. Gaddafi is a maverick, and full of contradictions. He was not so much anti-West as pro-liberation. He supported freedom movements around the world but suppressed it at home. One must also grant that he did not squander the oil wealth like the Gulf shiekhs. He has brought a fair degree of development and socialised welfare to his people. Nevertheless, he holds absolute power and denies his people basic rights and freedoms. And now with the violent suppression of people's uprising he has gone beyond the bounds of "benevolent" dictator. And in doing so he has unwittingly made an opening for foreign (read US imperial) intervention. They are already hinting at no-fly zone and Nato intervention. The more violent Gaddafi becomes the more opportunity he creates for imperial forces to first enter Libya and then destabilise the region so that US can be established its control. What the US lost in Egypt may well be gained in Libya. The Pentagon is already getting a hard-on at the prospect war in the name of democracy and human rights - which are nothing but code words for profit. War is good for business. Who knows this better than US imperialists.

Humsafar wrote:What was achieved through relatively peaceful uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt may well be undone by the brutal violence unleashed by an unhinged and delusional dictator of Libya

True, it appears that pro-West dictators showed restraint while freedom loving " mavericks" such as Gaddafi and Ahmedinejad have unleashed terror on their own populations.

Humsafar wrote:One must also grant that he did not squander the oil wealth like the Gulf shiekhs

You mean other than the billions confiscated from his private accounts worldwide and millions given to Beyonce, Usher and others for private concerts ?

He has brought a fair degree of development and socialised welfare to his people

So does the Mafia, your point is ?

I for one would welcome a no fly zone and foreign intervention to end the brutality. War is good for business and sometimes saves people in the process, and this may be a text book example unlike Iraq.

I didn't know expression of my outrage on every atrocity that happens around the world was so important to you. In your universe if I or this board do not express outrage than either we are complicit in it or condone it. Oh you self-appointed guardian of moral outrage!!!! How can one begin to talk with someone who thinks the problem with iraq is that the shock and awe intervention did not go according to plan.

fart finally shows his true colors. Behind all those pretentions of spreading freedom and democracy and saving lives, he is nothing but a filthy war monger. He could've easily said - War saves people and is sometimes good for business. But war is always good for business and only sometimes does it save lives in the process. These fa_t bit_hes have turned death and mayhem into a business. And then they blame those who wish to fight back!! The best way towards peace is through the graveyard of war mongers.

Sorry about that. No wonder simple minded people hate America and its policies. It's because they haven't understood nuances and sophistications behind their actions. Now I know why Amercia fears the rule of the people in middle east and wants brutal dictators to rule instead!! It is because people haven't understood them!! How can people understand that "War is good for business" has nuances and is a sophisticated statement? They can't. So we sell it to them by saying that we are there to spread freedom and democracy. Nicely done fart!!

Frankly, I missed the nuance on how war can save people. To me it is a contradiction in terms. War has always destroyed more people than it intended to save. Look at any war in history and see if it really solved anything. Empires have always fought wars for profit, power and prestige. The US empire is no different - the terms like "saving people", human rights, democracy etc. are just pretexts.

You will not get a pro War argument from me, but in your infinite wisdom have you researched the statistics of inaction ? I doubt it because they don't exist. Sudanese and Rwandan genocides would only matter if the "imperialists" waged wars to stop them, just as Libyan or Iranian civilians will only matter if and when the "empires" attack them.

Ooooo my eyes are filled with tears. Poor "imperialists"!! No one understands them. So what if they end up killing more than they save. They only went in to take the oil that the people stole from them and hid it under their sand. Let us now talk about saving Libya and Iran like we did Iraq and Afghanistan. But no one will understand us. Booo hooo hooo. We only want to spread freedom and democracy.

I am against war but war is good for business and it sometimes saves lives. Hmmm Remind me again - why am I against war? "good for business" and "saves lives" hmmm sounds like a pro war argument doesn't it? Ohhh I forgot about the nuances and sophistications behind that argument.

Goldman, JP Morgan And Citi Ten days ago, when we first looked at the Libyan investment authority (its sovereign wealth fund), we asked “Which US Banks Are Managing Billions For The $32 Billion Libyan Sovereign Wealth Fund?” Based on Wikileaks data, it was disclosed that various US banks manage billions for the country which has just seen $30 billion of its assets largely frozen (although this is merely half of its total deposits). Obviously, we had “some” banks in mind, most of the variety whose directors believe they are above the law and can share inside information with criminal intent with utter disdain for the law. Now, courtesy of Marcus Baram of the Huffington Post we find that the usual suspects are, naturally, all here: among the key banks that serve as advisors and asset managers are Goldman Sachs (and not just anyone, but Jim “Revolutions are Bullish” O’Neill’s GSAM, Citi and JP Morgan.

Banks are not the only entities: Washington DC darling private equity firm, and alleged CIA front organization, Carlyle is also among the collaborators.

Seriously fa_t? Don't you know that the first action taken by your masters against rogues dictators and regimes is freezing their assets? The first thing that comes to their minds is ..guess what??? Who does he bank with!!! Well, in this case, he banks with your corrupt masters on wall street.

Fatwa Banker wrote:Sudanese and Rwandan genocides would only matter if the "imperialists" waged wars to stop them....

Good you mentioned these two countries! Care to wonder why imperialists did not contemplate "humanitarian" intervention in Rawanda and Darfur? Let me help you. Because there was no profit to be made from these basket cases. If only they had oil or were of some geopolitical value imperialists would be all over the place "saving people" and thumping human rights.

Iranians and Libyan matter, and we hope and pray they will be able to sort out their affairs by themselves. But the moment imperialists enter the scene we can be sure that they will be no more than collateral damage with their countries in ruin and their people bombed to dark ages.

anjami, al-kidda thing may not be so completely off the wall. CIA is believed to be funding an islamist resistance in the eastern provinces for quite some time. Of course, this not to discredit the popular uprising against our lovely dictator.