Dear users, I know I've commented a lot. It's because I really care about all of this, I don't want to hate on people.

But then I got a private message from our pal DOOMSLAYY, following is what he wrote me.
I'm posting not to get either of us kicked off, but to hopefully kick some manners and sense into
the less civil among us. There seems to be a lot of blame towards people who posted in the
Crunchyroll poll to do Bleach- see my comments below to explain.
I have edited away the obscenities to be civil.

> Thanks for your vote to ruin BD what was free is now going to cost; If you had any brains you could
have been down loading bleach from DB all this time. I can still get it free but I will miss the DB subs.
Thanks you [DELETED].

Really nice thing to do. Send random profane hate mail to people on here. I get it, you're angry. I am too,
for the same reasons. A lot of us are. But this stuff isn't needed here.

I want to be very clear- I sent him a very, very angry response. So here, I'm no better. I claim no moral
high ground.

I'm posting this because I'm sure others may have gotten similar treatment- I want it to stop. I don't
want people kicked off here for 1 stupid burst in anger. What's done is done. His comment, though,
was directed towards my poll comment. I posted a nice message on the poll because Dattebayo
asked their longtime followers to do so- see here: http://www.dattebayo.com/pr/134

I followed their stuff from the very beginning. I still do. But THEY asked to support involving them
in Bleach subbing here- so I obliged, because it was a reasonable request.

Everyone, if you love anime, get over the petty hate, be civil, and read the news. We all deserve
better.

And Doomslay, I apologize for using so many foul words in my response to you. I hope the shock
of it knocked some sense into you as to how it feels to be talked to that way. Let's not do it again
to each other, or anyone else. Again, please read here: http://www.dattebayo.com/pr/134

Dear users, I know I've commented a lot. It's because I really care about all of this, I don't want to hate on people.

But then I got a private message from our pal DOOMSLAYY, following is what he wrote me.
I'm posting not to get either of us kicked off, but to hopefully kick some manners and sense into
the less civil among us. There seems to be a lot of blame towards people who posted in the
Crunchyroll poll to do Bleach- see my comments below to explain.
I have edited away the obscenities to be civil.

> Thanks for your vote to ruin BD what was free is now going to cost; If you had any brains you could
have been down loading bleach from DB all this time. I can still get it free but I will miss the DB subs.
Thanks you [DELETED].

Really nice thing to do. Send random profane hate mail to people on here. I get it, you're angry. I am too,
for the same reasons. A lot of us are. But this stuff isn't needed here.

I got the exact same message from him.

That message showed me that DOOMSLAYY is more worried about stealing it than who did better subbing. Can't people just be happy that it is still being subbed by anyone at all? Plus, Dattebayo could probably easily get a job if they would apply for a translating position at Viz, who by the way is subbing. It's not Crunchyroll subbing like so many seem to think.

Also, for those who can't get it in your region, find a decent proxy. There is a program I recommend called Freegate, it works quite well and I have watch Crunchyroll premium releases with it before when I ran into a block at school. Or find a new sub group.

Wow. The guy is mass-mailing hate mail. Now I'm actually glad I used more
obscenities than Richard Pryor in my response to him, if he's sending the same
thing to other people. He wants to talk like a foul-mouthed 10 year old, he'll
be treated like one.

Yeah, it's Viz- they deserve props for doing what they have for so long, and I'm not
ungrateful in the least, but they could really use some talent from DB. Serious.
I wish I could write those people recommendation letters for talent alone.

By the way Pooh- I think your avatar is hilarious! What is he? I love that his face
is so angry it's collapsing

zaldarwrote:
If the people who made it (the ORIGINAL people who made it the people in japan) want to give it away that is their right but the creators of bleach do not and should not have to.

Ok, that's defendable.

zaldarwrote:
The idea that all information should be free, is crazy, immoral, and wrong.

NOT defendable. What the hell do you think of libraries then? Immoral?
There is nothing immoral about free information in any form- you sound like
some kind of religious demagogue.

I've mentioned the whole "information wants to be free" thing to many people,
and some get it, some don't. You don't.

The state of media distribution in the digital age is debatable- I say copying
data is not stealing data in the legal sense- it is something altogether new and
novel to our age. Copying sculptures in art class is not crazy or wrong, and
certainly not immoral, unless you feel up a copy of Venus DiMilo's breasts.
Then again, that's a culturally specific immorality.

Copying something is NOT stealing it- you are not depriving someone of their
original item. Deal with it. Copyright laws are a recent idea, only 150 or so
years old in modern forms. Stuff that's fallen out of copyright people avidly and
freely copy- hell, I just read a book today from 1923 on Breguet that someone
cared to copy for everyone and put online- that book would cost me 1000$ at
an antiquarian bookshop. The creator is long dead, and the book was never
reprinted. No one cared enough to reprint it- it's niche. Copyright law doesn't
cover it anymore, so I could read it free. Even download it.

And don't even get me started on orphaned works, things that the copyright
owners can't be found for- they stay in legal limbo, unusable under legal
copyright forever. What of those? What of all the people who try to use
old 1920s music in music videos or movies- wonder why you don't hear much?
Most of 1920's music is copyright orphaned- professionally unusable even
though it's in the LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, preserved!

So copying media is SAVING media- saving it from obscurity, for posterity, and
the benefit of all. It's not theft in a direct legal sense- copyright law exists but is
messed up, and ignores often fair-use access for personal use.

I disagree and the law disagrees and even if you don't that doesn't give you a right to copy RECENT media and give it away. Libraries RENT media and some of us to think they hurt more than help. Used book stores would be a much better way of going. Some things are considered public domain. Anime is not one of them. Yes only recently have we begun to actually protect new work and give people ample compensation for it, but that only means only recently have we done things correctly. Wether you like it or not anime is made to make money. Stop the money being made from it and you stop the anime. As for downloading music no I actually don't, nor do I watch things that have been copyrighted on you-tube.

It is not "getting" that stealing is right, it is agreeing or not. I do not. Legally, and morally your position is wrong. You want something you pay for it. You don't pay for it, you don't get it. True for housing, true for food, true for health care and certainly true for entertainment.

Sorry but I think it's complete crap that we "non-payers" can't properly keep up on a show we enjoy watching without paying for something that was easily accessible and free before. DB was doing an awesome job and you didn't have to pay for that "premium". Yay, capitalism & licensing strikes again. *storms off*

I agree with this statement. While I do like supporting artists directly, for real
(and not like the RIAA claims to do for artists, the lying bastards), people at
Crunchyroll need to work on the whole REGION LOCKING thing.

I used to try to watch Crunchyroll in Japan- no go! And that 9 months I was
searching for a job after my JET contract ended, and then the recession hit-
Dattebayo were the only way I could watch anime in Japan subbed. I had
nothing else to do- the job market in my area was GONE in 2 weeks. What
the hell can you do when you're broke in a foreign country? Watch more
celebrities eating expensive stuff I couldn't afford? Hell no. Dattebayo
saved my mind from that TV hell. If I saw another commercial for mail-order
whalemeat and old women's stockings, I was going to kill someone.

Crunchyroll was blocking viewing of the very anime in the country where I was!

To those of you who scream "proxy, proxy"- gee, you really think those of us who
were living there or are still living there didn't think of that? Have you TRIED
visiting CR under a proxy? I could never get it to work consistently- they are good
at blocking proxy connections!

International copyright laws are F*&KING STUPID. Copyright law itself is a dubious
joke- thank 90 year Micky Mouse terms and Disney for that. Copyright law on the
internet, something with NO PHYSICAL BOUNDRY, is just as absurd. Read
Slashdot.org sometime for a good education.

Basically, DVD region locking, and now this damn region locking on the Internet,
which HAS no region, is the height of total bulls**t.

Fansubbing will always be there because of the stupid region locking on media
controlled by people with a dinosaur mindset towards copyright.

No the internet has a region the region you are accessing it from. If you want to watch it in Japan you watch it paying Japanese prices or on Japanese TV. You said earlier you understand Japanese, or you get a different job or move to another country. There is no excuse for stealing something. Ever.

No copyright laws are not dubious. People have a right to their creation FOR EVER. You make it, it is yours, a company makes it, it is the companies. Yes crunchyroll is good at blocking proxies. If they were not they wouldn't exist and they wouldn't be able to support the artists. You can like what you say about the RIAA but they have a right to make the contracts with the artists they are able to get. If the artists don't like them they can go elsewhere and many have with varying levels of success. Like anyone else in ANY business the RIAA and the record companies they represent are in business to make money which is not immoral. It is quite funny arguing with socialists and communists on the internet especially when their system has been shown historically to fail miserably.

zaldarwrote:
No copyright laws are not dubious. People have a right to their creation FOR EVER.

While it may be that way if (primarily) Disney has their way, it is not what the law provides. To quote from the U.S. Constitution:

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries

With the copyright extensions since 1978, however, it is beginning to appear that "for limited times" has been interpreted to mean "anything less than infinity".

Current lengths of copyright vary, depending on various conditions, but in simple terms are for the authors life + 70 years for individual works, or for an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication, or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first.

To put it another way, an anime copyrighted by a company this year would (assuming no further copyright extensions), not expire until 2105. Certainly not forever, but also quite ridiculous.

Zaldar dear the internet is regionless, I can go to the site I RP on anywhere in the world. "Regions" used by Crunchyroll and other places are simply a form of control, there is no "Your Internet ends or changes here." Get it right

Now..
Where exactly does it say Crunchyroll is completely supporting the artists hmm? I don't believe it does, I'm guessing the artists get the least out of all this. The majority of profits generally go to the license holders, and what do license holders love to do? Milk people for money! I believe if the artists were really interested in everything that you spewed, that they would hire some proper subbers like DB and then put episodes out in a different manner. Then again, the artists likely don't even have a say.

Nice one with the Socialism and Communism remark, only a person with a weak argument would need to bring those in. Instead of bringing you down, you jumped off the cliff on your own. *Thumbs Up!*

Zaldar dear the internet is regionless, I can go to the site I RP on anywhere in the world. "Regions" used by Crunchyroll and other places are simply a form of control, there is no "Your Internet ends or changes here." Get it right

*

I have to go with Zaldar on this since your IP changes depending on where your at, which is essentially your region. And yes, regions are, like you said, a way of control. With DVDs, it's a way to keep people from importing something no one has a license to distribute in another region. Though, I understand why people are upset, but it's not CR's fault. They can't get the rights to show in all countries without paying even more, so they have to choose those which are more profitable. Without profit, they can't stay online.

Companies try their hardest to please fans, but they can't make everyone happy.

Azmonawrote:
, that they would hire some proper subbers like DB and then put episodes out in a different manner.

As for this, I will say it once again. CR isn't subbing Bleach, Viz is. And the subbing issues come from the fact that they are subbing multiple shows at a time and have to make it as accessible as possible. If they slow down and go with a few at a time, people complain that they aren't releasing anything. DB may have been better to some degree, But put those same people in a business setting with more than 1 thing to sub a week and watch what happens. They won't be as wonderful as so many say they are then.

Regarding the accessibility I talked about, they can't always pander to the needs of the more hardcore fans. Those small changes can make a big differences to who buys it and doesn't. Wouldn't targeting the bigger group (everyday people) instead of the smaller group (purist) make more sense? I think it does, so I am fine with the few changes. I want them to stay open since it allows me to collect the anime I like on DVD in a language I can understand. It is all about money, but money makes the world go round after all.

Zaldar dear the internet is regionless, I can go to the site I RP on anywhere in the world.

I doubt your claim. Mainland China often has firewalls. Iran has blocks everywhere. Most people don't realize many EU countries have filters and blocks. Australia also blocks and filters.

I also truly doubt you have tested the validity of your own claim to any reasonable extent. Maybe you live in a free country and visit similarly free countries, and assume it's that way worldwide. It's not.

"Regions" used by Crunchyroll and other places are simply a form of control, there is no "Your Internet ends or changes here." Get it right

That's also false and, I don't mean to insult, laughable. Anyone who has used a massive torrent knows this. You seem to have your ideal of what you want the Internet to be confused with what the Internet is. Much of it is blocked off, redirected, redacted, and filtered. A lot of IP space, intentional or not, is inaccessible. Heck, the very fundamental of network policy and the underlying networking layers shoots holes in your argument.

Even most web pages are dynamic, based on user IP, as well as referral site, cookies, Flash cookies, time of day, etc. They change based on the user, even some of it is unintentional like based on what server served the data (round robin technique--server variations often have slight coding differences or timestamps resulting in slightly different pages).

Also, this whole CR vs. DB debates is point blank proof that the internet does change. If it didn't, you wouldn't be pissed, now would you. Furthermore, the Internet viewed and accessed changes a lot, with access granted, based on buying power, privilege, and status, much not monetarily based. Hackers run certain circles. Chat sites are often blocked or encrypted to gain entry. You don't have the right to access my banking info. Everyone's internet changes or ends "here" in some way, just you don't want to see or acknowledge it in its truest sense.

Also, the use of regions is practically no different than broadcast or network limitations. Which, again, is why we have this debate in the first place. Broadcasts only carry a certain distance. Japanese cableTV only goes to certain geographical locations. Whether a limitation of the technology or technology limited, it's ends up practically having the same issues--certain regions get access, others don't.

Finally, wrt this region aspect, CR didn't bring this to the table. It's always been there. You just see it glaring in front of you because CR brought broad legal access to the content; however, that does not make it CR's fault. If you have a problem with it, write to the companies of the media that's limiting viewership, and the governments supporting the laws that back it....and I somehow doubt you (or anyone else here blaming CR wholesale) have done this--it's easier to complain ineffectively on an Internet board about how things are wrong, and to blame a site like CR for playing by the book, than to actually have the guts to pick the fight with the real muscle. CR is the one that would have to deal with the DMCA request, the lawyers, the servers being confiscated if it came to that. You don't.

Now..
Where exactly does it say Crunchyroll is completely supporting the artists hmm? I don't believe it does, I'm guessing the artists get the least out of all this. The majority of profits generally go to the license holders, and what do license holders love to do? Milk people for money!

You are aware of the increase in the quality of the anime these past 10 years right?

You don't understand economics (who does). But one thing that is pretty consistent with economies is that more money spills over. You can complain all you want about money not being handed over, and in certain situations, that may be the case. But usually what happens is that better and more anime is produced.

Sure, the split of the money may not be to your liking, but the more money the distributor/copyright holder/artist/network/broadcaster makes, the more they are likely to invest in the next series, or to continue the series. I seem to remember reading somewhere that a lot of anime series budgets were increased circa 2005 because of the anime craze that was going on in the US. They were considering the income from a wider distribution. Nowadays, any of the top viewed anime is written and designed with some consideration of the US and worldwide market, including the budget and region differences. That's not opinion. That's fact, stated by anime creators themselves in interviews.

I believe if the artists were really interested in everything that you spewed, that they would hire some proper subbers like DB and then put episodes out in a different manner. Then again, the artists likely don't even have a say.

The creator/artist had a choice--it's their creation. What they do after that, that's theirs too, and it may not have been always the best decision. Still, that's the artists choice. They chose to go for a paycheck than take the risk themselves and put something online without a guaranteed income. Ultimately, you may feel bad for them, feel they deserve more, but that's their decision, not yours, and frankly that's the way the world works. The more risk, the greater the potential for failure or success. There was nothing stopping them from putting this online for free from the start and bypass the corporations and distributorships.

And frankly speaking, if this is your ideal, how many independent anime shows are you and the others watching? I mean, heck, we're talking about Bleach here, one of the big guns in viewership in the Japanese anime market. You're watching it because it's popular, because some big corporation invested in it, hired a team, converted it to anime form, and pumped it out over the airwaves. Bleach itself is counter to the ideal you want and support.

To go further, arguing that you or anyone else should somehow make that decision for the artist/creator is, to me, worse than the company offering meager payment. That's essentially what downloaders are doing right now to the creators and artists--they're not even giving them a chance. If you think CR"s methodology is bad, be careful, since yours is worse given there is not even a mechanism for financial reward being sent back via most torrenting and ripping/downloading sites. Not even a tiny percentage of those 'I want Bleach free' downloaders probably have even investigated what the addresses are to the names of the artists, much less sent them a check or even a letter of support. Could you even find such a page if you wanted to? You know, information wants to be free and all that--if you live by your own ideal, that information should already be out there now and compiled. I doubt it is. I doubt even the fansubs include a little note on how to support the artists. Yet the same downloaders have the gall to attack a legitimate distributor. I find that strange.

Nice one with the Socialism and Communism remark, only a person with a weak argument would need to bring those in. Instead of bringing you down, you jumped off the cliff on your own. *Thumbs Up!*

Again, not to be insulting, but given this is the counter you chose to offer up to what you self-described as a weak argument, what's that say about you in turn?

btw, the whole information wants to be free--it isn't an ideal. It's more a law. It simply is a descriptive statement of what happens. It's based on the pressure put on information based on the "value" of the information--the more desire for it, the more likely it gets revealed. It doesnt't mean everything is free or everything should be free. Unfortunately, it's been adopted by people who want to back some ideal of theirs (no regions, no copyright, open banking, anti-financial, anti-privacy). It's not about that--it's simply a factual statement of how things work, what happens. There is no additional value beyond that even if you want to believe otherwise.

I have to go with Zaldar on this since your IP changes depending on where your at, which is essentially your region. And yes, regions are, like you said, a way of control. With DVDs, it's a way to keep people from importing something no one has a license to distribute in another region. Though, I understand why people are upset, but it's not CR's fault. They can't get the rights to show in all countries without paying even more, so they have to choose those which are more profitable. Without profit, they can't stay online.

-Yes IPs change but the internet does not just fall off etc.. It exists any place that has a connection and isn't limited by govt, company etc. An IP is simply the "bus pass" a govt. or area gives a person to log on it's still 100% a form of control.. I'll agree with you on the profits. Everything is market driven, but there are many workarounds for this.

As for this, I will say it once again. CR isn't subbing Bleach, Viz is. And the subbing issues come from the fact that they are subbing multiple shows at a time and have to make it as accessible as possible. If they slow down and go with a few at a time, people complain that they aren't releasing anything. DB may have been better to some degree, But put those same people in a business setting with more than 1 thing to sub a week and watch what happens. They won't be as wonderful as so many say they are then.

-I never said CR was subbing it, minor details missed can be important.. Quality>Quantity basic principle of Quality Assurance, sadly money gets in the way & most places don't properly hold it up. Have you ever been to the DB site? They've usually done 2-3 shows at time with excellent quality which says it's not impossible for Viz to do the same.

I doubt your claim. Mainland China often has firewalls. Iran has blocks everywhere. Most people don't realize many EU countries have filters and blocks. Australia also blocks and filters.

I also truly doubt you have tested the validity of your own claim to any reasonable extent. Maybe you live in a free country and visit similarly free countries, and assume it's that way worldwide. It's not.

-You can doubt my claim all you want in your own little world. As I started above, those firewalls & blocks are their govt.'s way of control. -Tested? It's tested every time I go and RP. I play with people in the UK, US, Romania and many other places in the world without any problems. Look at all the WoW players around the world. Really now?
-I'm not going to even bother with your second paragraph, clearly you missed the point on it.

You are aware of the increase in the quality of the anime these past 10 years right?

You don't understand economics (who does). But one thing that is pretty consistent with economies is that more money spills over. You can complain all you want about money not being handed over, and in certain situations, that may be the case. But usually what happens is that better and more anime is produced.

Sure, the split of the money may not be to your liking, but the more money the distributor/copyright holder/artist/network/broadcaster makes, the more they are likely to invest in the next series, or to continue the series. I seem to remember reading somewhere that a lot of anime series budgets were increased circa 2005 because of the anime craze that was going on in the US. They were considering the income from a wider distribution. Nowadays, any of the top viewed anime is written and designed with some consideration of the US and worldwide market, including the budget and region differences. That's not opinion. That's fact, stated by anime creators themselves in interviews.

-Yes and No. In some areas quality has increased, in others it's decreased. A good example of that decrease is, not all anime is meant for children, but many companies pick one up, dumb it down, and aim it at a younger audience.
-Plenty of people understand economics we wouldn't be where we are at today without them.
-Or to line their own pocket, it would be nice if many companies fully invested in their projects but the majority do not.
-If it was a fact then they would release an anime all over the world in some glorious manner that everyone can access unobstructed untainted high quality that everyone can understand & enjoy. Is that happening? No I don't believe it is....nice dream though. Really.

Again, not to be insulting, but given this is the counter you chose to offer up to what you self-described as a weak argument, what's that say about you in turn?

btw, the whole information wants to be free--it isn't an ideal. It's more a law. It simply is a descriptive statement of what happens. It's based on the pressure put on information based on the "value" of the information--the more desire for it, the more likely it gets revealed. It doesnt't mean everything is free or everything should be free. Unfortunately, it's been adopted by people who want to back some ideal of theirs (no regions, no copyright, open banking, anti-financial, anti-privacy). It's not about that--it's simply a factual statement of how things work, what happens. There is no additional value beyond that even if you want to believe otherwise.

-It says absolutely nothing which was the point. I didn't need to put myself on a pedestal and declare that others are below me. The whole "I'm better than you" arguement is pretty old, you'd think people would have learned by now.
-I'll agree to disagree, could we live without regions? Ya sure. Deal with open banking? Maybe? Copyright, no. That I agree with to an extent. Anti-privacy is just dumb. Anti-finance? No, it just needs a major overhaul with some responsible non-greedy people.