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Oh, and besides being sloppy with idiotic penalties, other signs of lack of team discipline:

- Our star OLB shows up sloppy, fat, pudgy which leads to him playing like crap and getting hurt. That's not a lack of discipline? And what's Tomlin do about it? Not a damn thing.

- Our star receiver hold out for all of camp and preseason and then shows up to promptly drop passes, shows no interest in putting forth any effort and has a bad attitude all season. What's the coach do? Not a damn thing.

- Our star QB just carelessly wings passes all over the place, tossing game-losing pics more than once. When the season was to be made or broken, with the play off on the line, he loses BOTH games (Dallas and Cinci) with game-losing interceptions to end the game. No excuse for the utter sloppy and bonehead play; a bright and shinning example of lacking discipline.

- Our star running back is sloppy in carrying the ball and then pouts when he is told he would not be dressing and proceeds to not show up for work on game day (even though he wasn't playing).

- Some of our O linemen were just vastly overweight. No discipline.

- Our #2 WR couldn't bother to bend over and fall on a ball in the endzone, just giving up 5 points as if it was meaningless.

If you would go through a list of some of the good things that happened this year, you could probably have a longer list. There is always going to be something wrong on a team. But I don't think the Steelers are substantially way undisciplined. A father who has a strict household and a lot of kids cannot control everything they do. Are you suggesting that a coach of a team with grown men who have their own homes can control everything facet of their lives and behavior and if not, it's all his fault?

All you can do is compare our team penalties, infractions, execution, and off field problems to the rest of the league.. If it's in the lower half or bottom 3Rd then I think it's a problem. I don't care how much they make, how old they are, what they own, etc... Are they more disciplined than the other players in their profession?

If you would go through a list of some of the good things that happened this year, you could probably have a longer list. There is always going to be something wrong on a team. But I don't think the Steelers are substantially way undisciplined. A father who has a strict household and a lot of kids cannot control everything they do. Are you suggesting that a coach of a team with grown men who have their own homes can control everything facet of their lives and behavior and if not, it's all his fault?

First of all, way more good things than bad in 2012? I'd strongly disagree. It was an 8-8 season, where we needed just 1 more game to go to the play offs and we couldn't find that ONE WIN vs. TN, SD, Oak or Cle? Not to mention when we REALLY needed a game vs. Dallas and Cinci. No, sorry, not more good things than bad. And, with a -14 turnover ratio, I'd say it's safe to say, this team DOES HAVE discipline problems and that all starts and ends with the head coach, who, himself, had discipline problems with his ever-expanding girth.

I wonder how the authors opinion will change now that Raineys girl friend came out and said that she wasn't slapped and that the witnesses were full of crap. I'm sure she's saying that bc she sees millions slipping away, but whose word has more weight. Hers or the people who said it happened?

...it takes balls for any media person in Pgh to tell the truth about the Steelers; they routinely threaten to take away perks from reporters who touch on areas that the Rooneys prefer go ignored. I know this for a FACT. This guy may have just had his tail gate tent tickets (free food and beer), premium parking pass, luxury box tickets etc. revoked. There isn't really a free press in Pgh when it comes to the Steelers.

I was about to ask if you're Mark Madden, but then I remembered that he actually appreciates Ben Roethlisberger.

I wonder how the authors opinion will change now that Raineys girl friend came out and said that she wasn't slapped and that the witnesses were full of crap. I'm sure she's saying that bc she sees millions slipping away, but whose word has more weight. Hers or the people who said it happened?

People who can't control their emotions are constantly screwing up their lives. I wouldn't be shocked if this girlfriend didn't react over-the-top to begin with and now regrets that she just cost boy friend mad $ as it stands now. But I suspect some one will sign him for next year. I am not sure Pgh didn't react in a knew jerk fashion themselves. They may regret their rush to judgment themselves.

I appreciate Bonehead Ben when he's not groping women, whining like a baby or throwing pic sixes ruining the season.

First of all, nobody knows if Ben has been groping women, he doesn't whine ... he answers questions that are asked of him, and while he has thrown his share of pic sixes he has also led our team on some awesome last minute drives to win games.

While Oveido and I are diametrically opposed on the defense we are in complete agreement that if we get a cohesive offensive line that can play together for any length of time we will have a very good team. Until that time we will be an inconsistent mess.

Oh, and besides being sloppy with idiotic penalties, other signs of lack of team discipline:

- Our star OLB shows up sloppy, fat, pudgy which leads to him playing like crap and getting hurt. That's not a lack of discipline? And what's Tomlin do about it? Not a damn thing.

- Our star receiver hold out for all of camp and preseason and then shows up to promptly drop passes, shows no interest in putting forth any effort and has a bad attitude all season. What's the coach do? Not a damn thing.

- Our star QB just carelessly wings passes all over the place, tossing game-losing pics more than once. When the season was to be made or broken, with the play off on the line, he loses BOTH games (Dallas and Cinci) with game-losing interceptions to end the game. No excuse for the utter sloppy and bonehead play; a bright and shinning example of lacking discipline.

- Our star running back is sloppy in carrying the ball and then pouts when he is told he would not be dressing and proceeds to not show up for work on game day (even though he wasn't playing).

- Some of our O linemen were just vastly overweight. No discipline.

- Our #2 WR couldn't bother to bend over and fall on a ball in the endzone, just giving up 5 points as if it was meaningless.

These are all excellent points and I wholeheartedly agree. Discipline is instilled by the coach, who takes his cues from the front office. It's the coach's job to create a team culture and the Steelers culture is currently one of laziness and entitlement. It doesn't mean it can't be changed, but this current team plays without urgency and without attention to the little things. As you pointed out, there doesn't seem to be any fear from the players that they'll lose their starting job or get cut. As has been said by many others on this board, Tomlin appears hip and cool and his players love (based on what I've read) playing for him, but that approach isn't getting it done.

Our team is FILLED with guys who get hurt and while injuries are part of the game, I didn't see another team this year who had more guys get hurt than the Steelers. Discipline is knowing that you need to be in 100% shape when camp starts because if you aren't, you won't see the field. Discipline is knowing that if you turn the ball over with regularity, you're going to sit on the bench. Discipline is knowing at all times what the game situation is and what the right play is. Discipline is not committing dumb penalties like holds and pushes in the back on punt returns, like false starts, like personal fouls. The Steelers season was littered with false starts, holds and personal fouls. I don't care what may or may not happen behind closed doors - Tomlin lets these guys get away with a ton of crap on the field that shouldn't fly.

So many of my non-Steeler fan friends love Tomlin as a coach. I don't like him. The Ravens are now going to their third AFC championship game in five years and Joe Flacco(!) has been to the playoffs in each of his first five years. I think Harbaugh is a better coach than Tomlin. I hate the Ravens, but I think Harbaugh has out-worked Tomlin over the last five years. Yes, Tomlin's been to the Super Bowl twice in the last five years, but I think both of those appearances were largely achieved in spite of Tomlin, not because of him. Our guys are lazy, unmotivated and don't seem to have a problem with having the AFC North being taken over by the Ravens and the oncoming Bengals. Tomlin talks in cliches and says nothing. Players take their clues from their head coach and based on the results, I don't think Tomlin is doing nearly enough to get this team to where it should be. Nothing is guaranteed, but we're not getting the max from the talent we have and our players are playing dumb. That's all on the Tomlin. I'd like to get a new coach - someone who will instill fear in these guys and let them know the old ways and stupid playing won't fly. Won't happen, but it needs to. Six years is enough - we're going in the wrong direction.