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thankfully the great explorers,inventors and scientists of the world never turned back half way through their journey because they bottled it!

can you imaging Everest never being conquered because it was a bit steep half way up? or American never being discovered because the sea got a bit choppy?
what about the dday landings?..."LET'S RETREAT MEN THEY'RE SHOOTING AT US":FP:

thankfully the great explorers,inventors and scientists of the world never turned back half way through their journey because they bottled it!

can you imaging Everest never being conquered because it was a bit steep half way up? or American never being discovered because the sea got a bit choppy?
what about the dday landings?..."LET'S RETREAT MEN THEY'RE SHOOTING AT US":FP:

Possibly the worst analogy I've read

When these men climbed Everest, they weren't informed they had to leap down the other side and smash into the bottom as that was the only route left.

The multitude of trade off's for Brexit unfortunately don't fit your simple analogy and have to be dealt with.

When these men climbed Everest, they weren't informed they had to leap down the other side and smash into the bottom as that was the only route left.

The multitude of trade off's for Brexit unfortunately don't fit your simple analogy and have to be dealt with.

we don't have to leap off anything. we have to make business deals. people made deals before money was invented. people will always make deals if it benefits both parties. the only people worrying are those who are already making a packet out of being in the eu and are happy to see the rest struggle.

Agree it was a flawed referendum - just look at the last 4 months -
The aim or goal was not clear
The journey was not clear
The campaigns had no element of truth attached on either side
Responsibility was fudged, all those that lead in the campaign, have disappeared in real time.....

To be given a choice is not flawed at all. It's a step forward. If we'd have voted to remain then we stay and make the best of it. If we vote to leave then we leave and make the best of it.

There was no right or wrong choice because nobody really had a chance of understanding what was best. To be given a choice and mark some progress for the democratic process and then to be denied the majority choice we made is the worst possible outcome.

It reduces our power/influence for future choices and we can continue to career down the paths predetermined for us.

The choice was clear in or out. Once you make a choice you take the path.

I know you like analogies so I'll provide one. A young lad aged 10 decides he wants to be a footballer. He decides that and decides he's making that commitment. He will do anything to make it work. He's got more chance of succeeding than boy who isn't sure. He hangs around for 3 years looking for motivating, signs, worrying is he's making the right choice.

Sometimes you need clear direction in life. That's my decision and I'll commit to making it work. I would have supported that approach had the majority been in or out.

To be given a choice is not flawed at all. It's a step forward. If we'd have voted to remain then we stay and make the best of it. If we vote to leave then we leave and make the best of it.

There was no right or wrong choice because nobody really had a chance of understanding what was best. To be given a choice and mark some progress for the democratic process and then to be denied the majority choice we made is the worst possible outcome.

It reduces our power/influence for future choices and we can continue to career down the paths predetermined for us.

The choice was clear in or out. Once you make a choice you take the path.

I know you like analogies so I'll provide one. A young lad aged 10 decides he wants to be a footballer. He decides that and decides he's making that commitment. He will do anything to make it work. He's got more chance of succeeding than boy who isn't sure. He hangs around for 3 years looking for motivating, signs, worrying is he's making the right choice.

Sometimes you need clear direction in life. That's my decision and I'll commit to making it work. I would have supported that approach had the majority been in or out.

we had the choice between staying in a leaky boat and sinking or plugging the hole with our finger and paddling to safety with our free hand

we had the choice between staying in a leaky boat and sinking or plugging the hole with our finger and paddling to safety with our free hand

I've no idea which way to vote was best. I have said many times i don't think anybody posting here could possibly know which way is best. I still think the day we decide and we don't get listened to is more worrying than in or out.

To be given a choice is not flawed at all. It's a step forward. If we'd have voted to remain then we stay and make the best of it. If we vote to leave then we leave and make the best of it.

There was no right or wrong choice because nobody really had a chance of understanding what was best. To be given a choice and mark some progress for the democratic process and then to be denied the majority choice we made is the worst possible outcome.

It reduces our power/influence for future choices and we can continue to career down the paths predetermined for us.

The choice was clear in or out. Once you make a choice you take the path.

I know you like analogies so I'll provide one. A young lad aged 10 decides he wants to be a footballer. He decides that and decides he's making that commitment. He will do anything to make it work. He's got more chance of succeeding than boy who isn't sure. He hangs around for 3 years looking for motivating, signs, worrying is he's making the right choice.

Sometimes you need clear direction in life. That's my decision and I'll commit to making it work. I would have supported that approach had the majority been in or out.

The fallout of the referendum has shown the flaws - and still you deny what is going on -

I still believe out is right, it will be the right choice in the end... but getting there with corrupt politicians is gonna be a bumpy journey.....

Agree it was a flawed referendum - just look at the last 4 months -
The aim or goal was not clear
The journey was not clear
The campaigns had no element of truth attached on either side
Responsibility was fudged, all those that lead in the campaign, have disappeared in real time.....

It was as flawed as PM questions; every election; every manifesto; every political spin; every fortune teller etc etc - from both sides of the debates.

That said, we have an election commission, purdah, funding limits, a generally educated populace, free speech and free press and free access to internet/twitter etc etc. Funding and purdah rules were broken by remain too. Everything was out there and discussed to the point it was boring. People too have a responsibility to filter information and then live by their decision or abstain too. Voting doesn't have re-runs for good reason.

Most of the misleading claims from both sides were debated and countered on numerous shows and I don't understand anyone acting all surprised. People generally expected that money to go to the NHS before we even left the EU as much as they expected WW3 the day after the referendum.

The biggest issue is not the campaigns etc, but the conduct of the government in not planning for a brexit vote.

The journey itself could not be predicted either way, it many ways people are just think ing the grass is greener if we stay in the EU.

we don't have to leap off anything. we have to make business deals. people made deals before money was invented. people will always make deals if it benefits both parties. the only people worrying are those who are already making a packet out of being in the eu and are happy to see the rest struggle.

No there are lots of people worrying and this narrative that only the elite are worried is a nonsense, plain ordinary people like me are clearly worried but it seems there is a bizarre stoic determination to only listen to a certain set of people and plough on regardless of consequences....so its 'the people' minus a massive amount of people...just doesn't work.

And yes of course its business and a deal, just all we have is our collective **** in our hands and nothing of any value so best we sort the basics of any deal before we screw ourselves.

Having said that, one man who deserves credit is Boris Johnson, he has managed to do what no other has, unify all the countries of the EU, their shared hatred of him and is remarkable ability to antagonise the lot has meant our 'business deals' with the EU are already on the floor.

If its business as you say, we have to get it right, not sit here in the dark like uninformed plebs praying some more elite UK officials manage something in the right way (when every sign is they aren't)

Originally Posted by Coach791

I've no idea which way to vote was best. I have said many times i don't think anybody posting here could possibly know which way is best. I still think the day we decide and we don't get listened to is more worrying than in or out.

Which again is a quite simplistic view

If the vote was so tight and so flawed which you have said it was, then nobody was being listened to anyway and everybody was voting on an entirely flawed premise.

if its so foggy and lacking in clarity, then it was no choice at all.

All comes back to that

The very least that should be considered and people should have a say on is the principles of any exit, i.e. a single market, movement of EU nationals. Seems silly to keep saying 'we' when the the 'we' is by a whisker (and would likely look different now for those not shouting leave anymore).

Seems odd to not want more clarity for ourselves the future of the UK and our children, but just plunge ahead 'cos the people have to be listened to regardless of how muddy even 'the people' are now

It was as flawed as PM questions; every election; every manifesto; every political spin; every fortune teller etc etc - from both sides of the debates.

That said, we have an election commission, purdah, funding limits, a generally educated populace, free speech and free press and free access to internet/twitter etc etc. Funding and purdah rules were broken by remain too. Everything was out there and discussed to the point it was boring. People too have a responsibility to filter information and then live by their decision or abstain too. Voting doesn't have re-runs for good reason.

Most of the misleading claims from both sides were debated and countered on numerous shows and I don't understand anyone acting all surprised. People generally expected that money to go to the NHS before we even left the EU as much as they expected WW3 the day after the referendum.

The biggest issue is not the campaigns etc, but the conduct of the government in not planning for a brexit vote.

The journey itself could not be predicted either way, it many ways people are just think ing the grass is greener if we stay in the EU.

I think there's knowledge in the fact they didn't have a plan. They expected us to vote remain and even if we voted leave they couldn't care less. If you genuinely give the public two choices and make no plans for one of those choices it signals their intent.

Brexit and Trump have almost felt like rebellion against being told what to do. The populations appear sick of politicians talking in riddles, side stepping everything, spinning everything and are looking for a different path.

Not that I think Farage or Trump offer that but there's clear discontent at political establishment.

I think there's knowledge in the fact they didn't have a plan. They expected us to vote remain and even if we voted leave they couldn't care less. If you genuinely give the public two choices and make no plans for one of those choices it signals their intent.

Brexit and Trump have almost felt like rebellion against being told what to do. The populations appear sick of politicians talking in riddles, side stepping everything, spinning everything and are looking for a different path.

Not that I think Farage or Trump offer that but there's clear discontent at political establishment.

At least we didn't let Farage run the country...!

(unless we dont leave and UKIP get leave votes and next general election - so stay might mean Farage as PM - I sense many switching to leave again)

No there are lots of people worrying and this narrative that only the elite are worried is a nonsense, plain ordinary people like me are clearly worried but it seems there is a bizarre stoic determination to only listen to a certain set of people and plough on regardless of consequences....so its 'the people' minus a massive amount of people...just doesn't work.

And yes of course its business and a deal, just all we have is our collective **** in our hands and nothing of any value so best we sort the basics of any deal before we screw ourselves.

Having said that, one man who deserves credit is Boris Johnson, he has managed to do what no other has, unify all the countries of the EU, their shared hatred of him and is remarkable ability to antagonise the lot has meant our 'business deals' with the EU are already on the floor.

If its business as you say, we have to get it right, not sit here in the dark like uninformed plebs praying some more elite UK officials manage something in the right way (when every sign is they aren't)

Which again is a quite simplistic view

If the vote was so tight and so flawed which you have said it was, then nobody was being listened to anyway and everybody was voting on an entirely flawed premise.

if its so foggy and lacking in clarity, then it was no choice at all.

All comes back to that

The very least that should be considered and people should have a say on is the principles of any exit, i.e. a single market, movement of EU nationals. Seems silly to keep saying 'we' when the the 'we' is by a whisker (and would likely look different now for those not shouting leave anymore).

Seems odd to not want more clarity for ourselves the future of the UK and our children, but just plunge ahead 'cos the people have to be listened to regardless of how muddy even 'the people' are now

It is a simple view because the problem is simple. Politicians don't do the will of the people and they don't listen. It was unclear, it was foggy, nobody knew for certain so I couldn't care less if the nation agreed to toss a coin.

When you don't know the answer then you go with majority (even if slight one as that's more democratic) there's no point circling back around to the fog and lack of clarity to talk more and remain as cloudy as ever.

They gave us a choice. If they do that then take that choice away and circle back and twist and wriggle out of it then leave and remain should unite against that. Brexit or no Brexit you're life will change little.

It seems odd to me that you think you will get more clarity. You won't.

It was as flawed as PM questions; every election; every manifesto; every political spin; every fortune teller etc etc - from both sides of the debates.

That said, we have an election commission, purdah, funding limits, a generally educated populace, free speech and free press and free access to internet/twitter etc etc. Funding and purdah rules were broken by remain too. Everything was out there and discussed to the point it was boring. People too have a responsibility to filter information and then live by their decision or abstain too. Voting doesn't have re-runs for good reason.

Most of the misleading claims from both sides were debated and countered on numerous shows and I don't understand anyone acting all surprised. People generally expected that money to go to the NHS before we even left the EU as much as they expected WW3 the day after the referendum.

The biggest issue is not the campaigns etc, but the conduct of the government in not planning for a brexit vote.

The journey itself could not be predicted either way, it many ways people are just think ing the grass is greener if we stay in the EU.

I know - I am not surprised at the last 4 months - I expected the down turn - I expected the hate mail stuff - I am not even surprised by the litigation, a process all to common these days, when people are looking to blame someone......

I am not surprised by others parts of the EU having doubts over the EU....

What does surprise me - is neither the EU or Britain and our government want to take control and responsibility - both are happy to smudge the black and white and stumble along in the grey areas of the process....

No plan, no dates, what does it mean to the million EU people in Britain, what about the Brits in EU..... Absolutely clueless

If this was a war, decisions would of been made by now, coz otherwise the war would of been lost....
But no one seems concerned at the money wasted by their ineptness.....

It is a simple view because the problem is simple. Politicians don't do the will of the people and they don't listen. It was unclear, it was foggy, nobody knew for certain so I couldn't care less if the nation agreed to toss a coin.

When you don't know the answer then you go with majority (even if slight one as that's more democratic) there's no point circling back around to the fog and lack of clarity to talk more and remain as cloudy as ever.

They gave us a choice. If they do that then take that choice away and circle back and twist and wriggle out of it then leave and remain should unite against that. Brexit or no Brexit you're life will change little.

It seems odd to me that you think you will get more clarity. You won't.

I believe Brexit would/could change lives considerably and again I don't believe there was a REAL CHOICE with information to back it up at all, so yes that needs to be revisited.

Now you can either sit there insisting revisiting it would make no difference, or think there can't be any more harm done so why not give it a whirl, surely if quacking ducks and children and the future is so important, there is literally no harm in revisiting the emphasis on our departure from the EU.

If they don't provide clarity, fair enough, but assuming they won't and limply accepting this whole thing is not my style.

I don't know we'll get more clarity, but I'd like to find out, as opposed to a weak limp shrug of acceptance

I believe Brexit would change lives considerably and again I don't believe there was a REAL CHOICE at all, so yes that needs to be revisited.

Now you can either sit there insisting revisiting it would make no difference, or think there can't be any more harm done so why not give it a whirl, surely if quacking ducks and children and the future is so important, there is literally no harm in revisiting the emphasis on our departure from the EU.

If they don't provide clarity, fair enough, but assuming they won't and limply accepting this whole thing is not my style.

I don't know we'll get more clarity, but I'd like to find out, as opposed to a weak limp shrug of acceptance

You don't believe there was a REAL CHOICE. In or out wasn't a real choice so what you propose is we return to the point there was no REAL CHOICE.

I don't get what you're saying it makes no sense. We got a choice in or out they made there cases and majority went out. Now you want to give them a second opportunity to do it all again in the hope you get more clarity this time?

It's delusional to think you'll get clarity you'll get exactly the same one side saying leave is a disaster and the other side saying remain is a disaster. When even have votes? Why have elections? Why not just re run everything?

You want clarity but you will never get it. You actually want the UK to vote remain despite you having no clarity. You want certainty and that's just not possible because like I said nobody knows what's best.

You don't believe there was a REAL CHOICE. In or out wasn't a real choice so what you propose is we return to the point there was no REAL CHOICE.

I don't get what you're saying it makes no sense. We got a choice in or out they made there cases and majority went out. Now you want to give them a second opportunity to do it all again in the hope you get more clarity this time?

It's delusional to think you'll get clarity you'll get exactly the same one side saying leave is a disaster and the other side saying remain is a disaster. When even have votes? Why have elections? Why not just re run everything?

You want clarity but you will never get it. You actually want the UK to vote remain despite you having no clarity. You want certainty and that's just not possible because like I said nobody knows what's best.

Nope, the terms of out need to be clear, leave voters are all very confused as to why they wanted to leave with different reasons for voting, some of which clearly are not remotely doable so that needs to be revisited, its quite simple, the terms of leaving are to be known and addressed and if its not what people voted on, its clearly flawed.

You also seem to ignore the issue that some leave voters do not feel the same as they once did and feel cheated, not all of them are shrug shoulders acceptance (whilst pretending its an intellectual stance) or shouting push ahead on pride alone.

Its not difficult, the choice was flawed, only a complete idiot would dispute that and you are clearly not an idiot

As for what's best, being as there is literally nothing to suggest leaving is a good idea (other than pride and 'the people have spoken' claims) then revisiting the key terms such as the single market principle is perfectly doable and acceptable....and increasingly likely.

I find it bizarre you find the prospect of leaving but having the terms of that departure clearly explained and voters listened to, so perplexing.

On one hand you want democracy and 'the people heard,' but on this issue, the people are only to be heard on one occasion and never again. Bizarre

Oh and I want to remain for very clear reasons thank you, have stated them relentlessly, for the HE sector its clearly important with education, research (including medical in which we have proudly lead on collaborations across Europe), associated funding that goes with research, a number of sectors will clearly struggle post an actual exit, we have little to trade either so the single market is important, free movement (I don;t feel immigration is so much of a problem at all so would never vote on the premise of getting migrants out) and symbolically despite the way the EU has gone, for me its hugely important our major nation is a part of such a symbolic group, considering how it was formed post WWII.

If all or some of this could be catered for in leaving, I'd be fine, but clearly they can;t cater for anything never mind something, so why push on blindly.

Nope, the terms of out need to be clear, leave voters are all very confused as to why they wanted to leave with different reasons for voting, some of which clearly are not remotely doable so that needs to be revisited, its quite simple, the terms of leaving are to be known and addressed and if its not what people voted on, its clearly flawed.

You also seem to ignore the issue that some leave voters do not feel the same as they once did and feel cheated, not all of them are shrug shoulders acceptance (whilst pretending its an intellectual stance) or shouting push ahead on pride alone.

Its not difficult, the choice was flawed, only a complete idiot would dispute that and you are clearly not an idiot

As for what's best, being as there is literally nothing to suggest leaving is a good idea (other than pride and 'the people have spoken' claims) then revisiting the key terms such as the single market principle is perfectly doable and acceptable....and increasingly likely.

I find it bizarre you find the prospect of leaving but having the terms of that departure clearly explained and voters listened to, so perplexing.

On one hand you want democracy and 'the people heard,' but on this issue, the people are only to be heard on one occasion and never again. Bizarre

Oh and I want to remain for very clear reasons thank you, have stated them relentlessly, for the HE sector its clearly important with education, research (including medical in which we have proudly lead on collaborations across Europe), associated funding that goes with research, the single market, free movement (I don;t feel immigration is so much of a problem at all so would never vote on the premise of getting migrants out) and symbolically despite the way the EU has gone, for me its hugely important our major nation is a part of such a symbolic group, considering how it was formed post WWII

Why do you need to know the terms? Firstly you will told a load of nonsense. Just like in every vote, every election you'll be fed a load of lies and exaggerations. Secondly you have absolutely no say in the terms. You had one vote now you're out that's how our system works unfortunately.

Your demanding they lie to you, you want to see them lie to you and you have absolutely no power to do anything about their lies and instead want to spend months listening to experts lying on both sides.

You are absolutely insignificant to a Conservative government. There's zero chance you will ever see their plans, they may show a few things they've spun but you are living in another reality if you think you will ever be given their plans.

The way the EU has gone is exactly the way it was supposed to go. The U.S took advantage of it's position as global leader supreme after World War II and created what it needed.

It set out doing almost everything it wanted to (or those who controlled U.S government wanted) and it set up the IMF, The World Bank, NATO and the only one that failed was The World Trade Organisation which back at the first attempt was the International Trade Organisation.

Those with power now controlled the world banking and monetary system, the majority of the world's military and it tried to control the world's trade. The EU was born out of nothing other than a desire to control and suppress Europe from ever challenging the world order.

That's why Europe has limited military, that's why it has a messed up currency, a fraudulent monetary system. the Union was designed to suppress Europe. Just like WTO is designed to suppress trade, just like the banks are designed to create debt and control finance. It was a global design.

The European Union is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Firstly suppress and control and then over time take away military and then control trade in Europe and slowly over time cause conditions that force Europe into an economic union controlled by a central European bank and a central government.

The plan was always one born out of power and control and Europe was to be enslaved. The vision you have of the EU is fictional. It's doing EXACTLY what it was designed to 60-70 years ago or however long it was.

Why do you need to know the terms? Firstly you will told a load of nonsense. Just like in every vote, every election you'll be fed a load of lies and exaggerations. Secondly you have absolutely no say in the terms. You had one vote now you're out that's how our system works unfortunately.

Your demanding they lie to you, you want to see them lie to you and you have absolutely no power to do anything about their lies and instead want to spend months listening to experts lying on both sides.

You are absolutely insignificant to a Conservative government. There's zero chance you will ever see their plans, they may show a few things they've spun but you are living in another reality if you think you will ever be given their plans.

The way the EU has gone is exactly the way it was supposed to go. The U.S took advantage of it's position as global leader supreme after World War II and created what it needed.

It set out doing almost everything it wanted to (or those who controlled U.S government wanted) and it set up the IMF, The World Bank, NATO and the only one that failed was The World Trade Organisation which back at the first attempt was the International Trade Organisation.

Those with power now controlled the world banking and monetary system, the majority of the world's military and it tried to control the world's trade. The EU was born out of nothing other than a desire to control and suppress Europe from ever challenging the world order.

That's why Europe has limited military, that's why it has a messed up currency, a fraudulent monetary system. the Union was designed to suppress Europe. Just like WTO is designed to suppress trade, just like the banks are designed to create debt and control finance. It was a global design.

The European Union is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Firstly suppress and control and then over time take away military and then control trade in Europe and slowly over time cause conditions that force Europe into an economic union controlled by a central European bank and a central government.

The plan was always one born out of power and control and Europe was to be enslaved. The vision you have of the EU is fictional. It's doing EXACTLY what it was designed to 60-70 years ago or however long it was.

Didn't you say that you didn't vote because you didn't have a clear view on what was the better option?
Why are you lecturing Welshy about this? At least he actually knew what to vote and why, you are pretty much repeating the same mantra time and time again, while admitting you didn't actually know too much about this matter to make an informed decision.

Didn't you say that you didn't vote because you didn't have a clear view on what was the better option?
Why are you lecturing Welshy about this? At least he actually knew what to vote and why, you are pretty much repeating the same mantra time and time again, while admitting you didn't actually know too much about this matter to make an informed decision.

He likes his fence - its safe there, he can then tell everyone it wasn't his fault....

I know - I am not surprised at the last 4 months - I expected the down turn - I expected the hate mail stuff - I am not even surprised by the litigation, a process all to common these days, when people are looking to blame someone......

I am not surprised by others parts of the EU having doubts over the EU....

What does surprise me - is neither the EU or Britain and our government want to take control and responsibility - both are happy to smudge the black and white and stumble along in the grey areas of the process....

No plan, no dates, what does it mean to the million EU people in Britain, what about the Brits in EU..... Absolutely clueless

If this was a war, decisions would of been made by now, coz otherwise the war would of been lost....
But no one seems concerned at the money wasted by their ineptness.....

Nobody knows which way a second ref would go either. Much of the doom will be countered as would quotes since then by the EU. And really, the EU has been holding back a number of crisis which they will not be able to continue to do with the time a second EU ref would take and that adds ammunition to leave.

Ironically the EU ref was timed for maximum positive impact for a remain vote. Now we will have electioneering across Europe; resurgence of migration crisis with Turkey; who knows what will happen in Italy next week.

I think the ambiguity might work in our favour long-term, but a bigger out vote might not.

Nobody knows which way a second ref would go either. Much of the doom will be countered as would quotes since then by the EU. And really, the EU has been holding back a number of crisis which they will not be able to continue to do with the time a second EU ref would take and that adds ammunition to leave.

Ironically the EU ref was timed for maximum positive impact for a remain vote. Now we will have electioneering across Europe; resurgence of migration crisis with Turkey; who knows what will happen in Italy next week.

I think the ambiguity might work in our favour long-term, but a bigger out vote might not.

Shouldn't be a 2nd referendum - this isn't best out of 3 or 5 or until remain get their way.....

He likes his fence - its safe there, he can then tell everyone it wasn't his fault....

I probably have more conflicts with Coach than even you, but to be fair he is consistent in his view. And i defend anyone's right not to vote - its better than being taken advantage of. (Unless of course they complain about the result despite not voting which does raise my eyebrows.)