I'm not anti-Israel by any means, and I see that they are quite the western nation, therefore, they should be held at as much scrutiny as any other westernized nation. I would not want to live in Iran, or Gaza, however...Israel has been meddling in human rights abuses for a while, and no matter what political agenda you have, or what side you are on, that is wrong. I'd feel the same way to my own country. Regardless of if someone wants to kill me because I'm gay, doesn't mean I won't want to protect their life as much as the next persons.

I don't think Liberals feel negatively towards Israel, they just hold it to a higher standard, especially since Irsrael has the funding (our funding) to be surgical and precise about what they do. I'm critical of the other side as well.

I also love the Iranian people even though I do not support their ideas. I wish nothing but peace, prosperity, and the hope that they soon find themselves in the same situation and lifestyle as me, and much happiness.

You can't cure everyone's ignorance, but you can always give aid to any ignorant fool. You can't stop an intelligent and wealthy fool from making bad decisions, but you can let them know when they have.

Also, I think the right paints liberals in a bad light in this situation. That Israel is our only ally in the region, which is completely and utterly false. I know of plenty of Arab countries who are our allies in the region, but who Israel is an enemy.

And lets not forget the Biblical implications involved in maintaining a relationship with Israel, mostly by the right. The religious right, which forms the base of the Republican party, believes that if Israel is not protected and is taken, then God will also take their nations. (I'm not sure how they come up with that, but it's written somewhere in the Bible).

So to the right, Israel is sort of a jewel on a pedlestool, but to the average liberal, it's just another country who receives billions and billions of US funding who keeps picking fights with nasty neighbors.

I agree with their right to exist, I do not agree with agressive expansion and settlements into Gaza.

But the land has been fought over since time immemorial, thus it will probably continue.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):I've been scratching my head over this one for a while. So many people on the left have a deep anger against Israel.

It's not really anger as it is just disagreeing with their policies against the Palestinians. Many of us on left realize that Israel has been treating the Palestinians in the Gaza strip, really bad for a while now. So even though they are the country in the region that promotes "left" thinking, they also go against it by denying Palestinians any form of human rights

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):I don't think Liberals feel negatively towards Israel, they just hold it to a higher standard, especially since Irsrael has the funding (our funding) to be surgical and precise about what they do. I'm critical of the other side as well.

Exactly. As i've said in the past, I hold them to a higher expectation. I don't want to get up one morning and see that the Israeli air force bombed the shit out of an apartment building in the Gaza strip because a Palestinian threw a bottle at an Israeli Army convoy. To me that's excessive force, and this is the problem that most people have with Israel, they seem to go above and beyond the response that's actually needed.

Another thing we "libs" hate is that our gov't supports any action taken by Israel and it's military, no matter how bold those actions are. If we hold Israel to a higher standard, then when they do something wrong, then we should point that out as well. We hold cops to a higher standard, if a cop doesn't do his job right, his captain will let him know about it. We should do the same with Israel.

Perhaps a better question would be why so many people in the US do support Israel unconditionally. It seems to run along two related paths: religion and general dislike of Muslims. Many of the right wing religious nut jobs in the US count themselves among the supporters of Israel, and it is worth noting that most of the loudest pro-Israeli voices in the US are evangelical Christians and not Jews. Despite this, not supporting Israel unconditionally seems to equal anti-Semitism.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

I can't imagine anyone who is GLBT wanting to live in another country in the region.

I can't imagine a female who cares about equality wanting to live in another country in the region.

I can't imagine that Jews who have lived in other countries in the region enjoyed the same rights there as non-Jews who currently live in Israel.

Is all of that supposed to justify just looking past the crap Israel pulls? Does being pro-West and liberal thinking give them license to practice aparteid? Or continuing the status quo by never showing any lasting commitment to peace? Quite frankly, it is somewhat surprising that Israel is given a pass on so much in America.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):.Israel has been meddling in human rights abuses for a while, and no matter what political agenda you have, or what side you are on, that is wrong.

Exactly. If Israel is so western and progressive, why do they continue doing the things that they do?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):I agree with their right to exist, I do not agree with agressive expansion and settlements into Gaza.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):Perhaps a better question would be why so many people in the US do support Israel unconditionally. It seems to run along two related paths: religion and general dislike of Muslims. Many of the right wing religious nut jobs in the US count themselves among the supporters of Israel, and it is worth noting that most of the loudest pro-Israeli voices in the US are evangelical Christians and not Jews. Despite this, not supporting Israel unconditionally seems to equal anti-Semitism.

Right on the money. I think a better question would be why do so many on the right think of the Israeli government as absolutely infallible.

But regardless, lots of people on either side like to believe the Arab-Israeli conflict is such a black and white issue from their perspective, when it really can't be further from the truth. Many of the American Jews I know have lots of issues with actions of the Israeli government. And I must say, with the settlement expansion, handling of the Gaza blockade, shunning of US peace talk efforts,etc, I find it difficult to believe they themselves want peace and coexistence.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):So why is it that the left often have a love-affair with the other countries?

I think most are more hesitant to give Israel the free pass in their actions than others. I really haven't seen much of this 'love affair' with other countries.

What's also rampant is being labeled in 'anti-Semite' if you say anything critical about an Israeli government decision. It's ridiculous. I try to treat them and analyze their actions like any other country.

I hope that DocLightning will post in this thread, because I can't think of anyone i've agreed with more on this and can articulate it much better than I.

Perhaps you should ask, why are so many on the right anti-Jewish.
Talk to any Bible-thumper about their feelings about Jews and their hatred is far worse than any criticism towards Israel from the left.

The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

Their dubious human rights record might suggest otherwise. People on the left certainly don't like seeing one group consistently persecuting another and keeping a sizable population down politically, socially, and economically.

In many ways, you can compare modern day Israel to America during the Jim Crow Law (racially segregated) era. The Jewish majority - like the American white majority - enjoys all kinds of constitutional freedoms as well as political and economic control over virtually everything in the nation. The Arabs - like the African Americans - suffer constant hardships and have very few constitutional/legal rights compared to the majority.

Sure, in some respects Israel is highly progressive in ways those on the left would like: gay rights, equality of the sexes, environmental responsibility, etc. But their maltreatment of the Arab population and blatant disregard for international agreements and protocol does not earn them brownie points from the left.

Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4):What's also rampant is being labeled in 'anti-Semite' if you say anything critical about the an Israeli government decision. It's ridiculous. I try to treat them and analyze their actions like any other country.

Well sometimes one begins to wonder. I mean take Helen Thomas for example, she wanted Israel to go back home yet was all for giving all the illegal immigrants in the US instant citizenship. Why?

Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!

Israel offers very little to the US in the amount of return we give it. We cannot launch any strategic military operations out of Israel because of the Arab/Israeli conflict. One rocket leaves Israel and it's all to hell, and everyone knows that. So they do nothing for us strategically. Our bases are ALL on Arab Soil.

Israel has a large technology trade, but other than that, they are not much financial interest to the US.

They don't have that many natural resources worth buying.

And finally, they are like the spoiled rich kid on the block that we have to take up for.

I'm not anti-Israel in that rant, I'm just asking, given all of those things, WHY does the US support Israel to no ends? And when an administration calls them out on aggression and violations, the right goes nuts?

Here is the Christian Bit About Protection of Israel:

The whole ideal of the "rapture", is to fulfill the prophecy that (off the top of my head, so forgive me if I get it wrong) all of Israel will be surrounded by their enemies -- this means NO allies left, including the United States -- and they will wage war to destroy the country. After that, God uses divine intervention (I think) to save Israel from their enemies, then the "end of the world" begins. And those nations who did not aid Israel, will perish among enemy nations, along with their people.

The right-wing is highly Christian and even more so, Evangelical. They believe this to be truth, and the inspired word of God. Christians will go to any lengths to support Israel. I'm always talking about how people think everything that is "divinely inspired" is always good. Blind support of Israel is one of those things that is divinely inspired to many.

To put it as simply as I can, zrs70, I don't think it's a matter of politics at all. It has to do with racial and religious intolerance.

My personal position is that I guess I'm politically left of centre; and I'm a Christian (originally a Catholic, now non-practising). Again trying to 'keep it short,' I see Israel as just another nation which practises extreme racial and religious prejudice.

In itself, 'Israel' is, in my opinion, the creation of a (truly 'godless') alliance between extremists of the Jewish and Christian religions; mainly those living in the United States in the 1930s and 1940s. They cynically used the Holocaust, plus the postwar political ascendancy of the United States, plus Truman's desperation at the time of the 1948 Presidential election, to grab Palestine by force and turn it into a place where racial and religious discrimination plays an even bigger part than it did in Nazi Germany.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

I honestly don't know what you mean by that? If I had to point to a single reason why I'm 'left of centre' I would HAVE to say it's because I believe in 'equal opportunity for all;' which, I guess, includes freedom of religion. Please don't even SUGGEST that the current State of Israel operates on anything LIKE those principles?

[Edited 2010-07-09 23:52:44]

"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):There is a lot of trade between the US and Israel, Israel has some major IT R&D centres, plus the IDF is helping the US with some military programs.

They aren't exactly China, India, Canada, The EU, or many Oil Rich Arab nations who let us use their airfields. In comparison, Israel is fairly insignificant to the US on a political/financial.military level than almost every other strong ally we have, yet we claim that Israel is one of our best allies, and refer to our relationship with Israel as some how "Special." Even the current POTUS calls it a "Special Relationship."

Really, the fact that the Holocaust is used as a sort of overriding justification for everything Israel does is a slap in the face to those who died.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11): Even the current POTUS calls it a "Special Relationship."

I think that the US should adopt a zero tolerance policy against Israeli human rights abuses and help establish a Palestinian state with a real government, but should likewise adopt a zero tolerance policy to attacks on Israel.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):I've been scratching my head over this one for a while. So many people on the left have a deep anger against Israel.

The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

There is a lot about Israel that is positive and a lot that is negative. It is true that GLBT rights in Israel are almost a non-issue. But they live a two-faced life of having severe issues with racial/ethnic prejudice and apartheid. We did not tolerate this behavior from S. Africa.

My frustration is less with Israel than with a world that has given Israel such latitude.

As a Jew and a relative of a Survivor, it also deeply angers me that Israel's behavior toward the Palestinians in so many ways mirrors that of the Nazis toward the Jews. That the Israeli government uses those same Nazis as a justification for their actions only adds insult to injury.

In many ways, Israel is a fantastic country and culture, brimming with energy and promise. Jews may be famous and infamous, but we have a history of doing big things and achieving huge accomplishments. For the tiny little sliver it is, Israel is responsible for some huge things (one of the best militaries in the world, ICQ, amazing art and music, a population with almost 100% English literacy, first-class healthcare for all). But in other ways, Israel's behavior toward Palestine (and their seeming wonder as to why they're having such trouble with them for not lying down and taking it) makes it all seem rotten to the core.

-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."-Carl Sagan

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

Tell that to the ultra orthodox Jews who are the really militant ones when it comes to making peace.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):I agree with their right to exist, I do not agree with agressive expansion and settlements into Gaza.

????

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):But the land has been fought over since time immemorial, thus it will probably continue.

So long as Hamas as well as others stick to "destruction of Israel" line then you're right, there won't be any peace.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2): Many of us on left realize that Israel has been treating the Palestinians in the Gaza strip, really bad for a while now.

Do you also think lobbing rockets on an almost daily basis into Israel is treating someone badly?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):Or continuing the status quo by never showing any lasting commitment to peace?

Israel has been willing to give up land, abandon settlements, offer financial aid, as well as sign an agreement giving the Palestinians their own land to rule over. Hamas has yet to say they acknowledge Israel's right to even exist. Fair and balanced?

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4):What's also rampant is being labeled in 'anti-Semite' if you say anything critical about an Israeli government decision. It's ridiculous. I try to treat them and analyze their actions like any other country.

Sort of like being called a "racist" if you disagree with our President.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):Talk to any Bible-thumper about their feelings about Jews and their hatred is far worse than any criticism towards Israel from the left.

Out comes the warm and fuzzy blanket.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6):In many ways, you can compare modern day Israel to America during the Jim Crow Law (racially segregated) era.

???? Blacks in this country wanted to see its destruction and drive the white man out?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 8):The whole ideal of the "rapture", is to fulfill the prophecy that (off the top of my head, so forgive me if I get it wrong) all of Israel will be surrounded by their enemies -- this means NO allies left, including the United States -- and they will wage war to destroy the country. After that, God uses divine intervention (I think) to save Israel from their enemies, then the "end of the world" begins. And those nations who did not aid Israel, will perish among enemy nations, along with their people.

Yikes!!!!! The idea of the Rapture is that those that have lived a good clean Godly life will be spared the end days and the persecution of the Anti-Christ. You're kind of mixing and mashing the storyline. Before the Rapture, so the story goes, Israel will be attacked. The story does not specifically say by "every" country on the face of the earth. It also says that God will protect Israel and all those attacking will be destroyed. Shortly after that the Rapture occurs and the end days begin.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 8):The right-wing is highly Christian and even more so, Evangelical.

Yet another fuzzy blanket appears. Most Christians are not Evangelicals. Evangelicals get most of the exposure because they have a tendency towards being loud.

Then again the political situation was completely different. The blacks in SA weren't tossing rockets at white settlements nor threatening to kill every single white person in the country.

Israel is not perfect. But they have had to fight 3 major wars in the past 61 years just to maintain their survival. This after the original UN agreement split the land pretty equally between the Palestinians and the Jews. Israel, as I noted above has made offers of land, aid, and comfort to the Palestinians all the while suffering rocket attacks and suicide bombers as well as having their Olympic athletes kidnapped and planes hijacked. If Mexico were lobbing rockets over the border into CA how long do you think the residents of San Diego, El Paso, or Brownsville would put up with that? Yet Israel is supposed to just ignore that kind of behavior?

I personally resent the sentiment that criticizing Israeli policies makes one Anti-Israel. As a German I feel we have a moral obligation to the state of Israel, perhaps bigger than any other nation on this planet. And I feel that the settlement policies are not just unfair towards the Palestinians, but also putting Israel at grave danger.

Israel can be two out of these three things: Jewish, democratic, consist of the whole of "Greater Israel/Palestine" (the whole land mass including Gaza, today's legal Israel, the West Bank).

If it consists of the whole of Greater Israel, the majority of people will soon not be jewish. Then you're faced with the choice of being democratic, i.e. giving everybody an equal vote, which will result in an Arab government, or preserving jewish Israel, i.e. not giving the Palestinians a vote and oppressing them à la Apartheid South Africa.

I believe the only way of ensuring Israel's long-term future is a fair two-state solution which includes a sustainable Palestinian nation. I also believe that the current Palestinian leadership in the West Bank with PM Fayyad is as good as it's ever going to be: If he fails with his peaceful and economy-minded policies the extremist forces will use it as proof that peaceful policies towards Israel are doomed and that an armed struggle is their only choice. That's why in my opinion the Israeli government as well as all the other stakeholders should do everything they can to support Fayyad instead of sabotaging his efforts with new settlements.

I also don't think that you have to get rid of all extremists, something no country has ever managed to do. You need to make sure that there's no popular support for extremists, and the easiest way to do that is offering the people a viable alternative.

The underlying basis for why I think so many on the left seem to "hate" Israel--I use hate in quotations because it isn't that they hate Israel, its that they aren't willing to give Israel the benefit of the doubt and don't trust it--is the lens in which they view the Israel-Palestinian conflict. There's a significant portion of American liberals who see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as being a relic of the era of colonialism, where the European whites move into another country, steal land and abuse the native non-white population, and exploit the natural resources...etc. The whole oppressor versus the oppressed debate--and the left sees the Israelis as oppressors. From that lens/perspective, you then look for other things or examples to support that point of view, or appear similar to other colonial/racial conflicts of the past.

I also think a lot of people on the left subscribe to the simplistic (and false) belief that if the U.S. abandoned our support of Israel, the Arab and Islamic realms would suddenly love us and see us as their friend; that the basis for a lot of the fundamentalist Islamic hatred of the U.S. stems from our support of Israel, and so the threat/hatred from the fudamentalist muslims would also decrease as well.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):I think the right paints liberals in a bad light in this situation. That Israel is our only ally in the region, which is completely and utterly false.

The right doesn't promote Israel as our only ally in the region (which, I agree, is false)--it promotes it as the only ally in the region that shares a similar set of political and economic beliefs as the U.S.--and as "democracy's beachhead in the middle east."

That's a big difference from the promoting it as our only ally--Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia (just to name a few) are also U.S. allies, but they aren't exactly thriving liberal democracies.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):The religious right, which forms the base of the Republican party, believes that if Israel is not protected and is taken, then God will also take their nations

You are right in that those on the religious right have an irrational belief regarding Israel, but the irrational belief you speak of isn't the one they have. The religious right and the christian evangelicals are indeed vociferous supporters of Israel--in some cases, more die-hard than American jewish organizations. Jewish groups put up with them because they need the added influence, and so will work with them--but its kind of like two parties that mistrust one another temporarily putting aside that mistrust to work for a common of goal of sorts.

The irrational belief held by evangelicals and the religious right is that in order for the messiah to return, all Jews must return to Israel, and then the rapture will take place, armageddon will occur, all the "evil" will be exterminated, etc.

Of course, the mistrust in the relationship is that the evangelical christians want to convert their jewish partners (and think of them as belonging to an inferior religion, but one that is "less inferior" to Islam) --understandably, Jews don't like that so much.

It may seem that way, but it doesn't. Its only anti-Semitic if you are holding Israel to a different set of standards than other countries--and that's the official line towed by one of the leading Jewish civil rights organizations in the U.S., the ADL.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6):In many ways, you can compare modern day Israel to America during the Jim Crow Law (racially segregated) era. The Jewish majority - like the American white majority - enjoys all kinds of constitutional freedoms as well as political and economic control over virtually everything in the nation.

Gaza and the West Bank aren't a part of Israel--so by definition, it cannot be compared to apartheid and the Jim Crow laws.

Now, I admit that the Orthodox and the ultra-Orthodox punch above their weight in terms of influence and leverage compared to their relative population size, but there is no basis for the apartheid/Jim Crow comparison.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):I agree with their right to exist, I do not agree with agressive expansion and settlements into Gaza

What Gaza settlements? Israel has pulled out of Gaza, and has no plans to expand there.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4):I think a better question would be why do so many on the right think of the Israeli government as absolutely infallible.

It's not that many on the right think that the Israeli government is infallible, it is that they are more likely to give Israel the benefit of the doubt--in the same way that many on the left are unlikely to give Israel the benefit of the doubt.

It is generally only those on the religious right who believe that the Israeli government is infallible--and their motives are far from pure (in the sense that pure means national interest).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):Talk to any Bible-thumper about their feelings about Jews and their hatred is far worse than any criticism towards Israel from the left

Agree and disagree--You are certainly correct that the extremist right is indeed viscerally anti-Semitic, but then again, so are those on the extremist left. In terms of trying to "diagram" anti-Semitic beliefs on the US political spectrum, it is basically a circle--the groups on the respective extremes share similar beliefs regarding Jews.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 8):Israel has a large technology trade, but other than that, they are not much financial interest to the US.

Israel is a huge entrepreneurial center, as well as being a leader in agricultural research in desert environments--partnerships between Israeli universities and american universities.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):the fact that the Holocaust is used as a sort of overriding justification for everything Israel does is a slap in the face to those who died

It isn't--the Holocaust is only brought up when people discuss dismantling or destroying the state of Israel, or as a reason for why the Jews need a homeland.

Quoting us330 (Reply 17):or as a reason for why the Jews need a homeland.

Just as a matter of interest, why indeed does anyone think that the Jews need a 'homeland'?

After all, they're a religion, not a nationality?

Niether Muslims nor Buddhists nor Hindus nor Christians appear to feel that they need a 'homeland.' And, speaking for myself, if someone ever proposed a Christian/Catholic 'homeland' anywhere in the world, it would be the very last place I'd choose to live in (unless, maybe, they chose Australia, because the Australians would cut them down to size within five minutes ).

So what is the practical logic behind this whole 'Jewish homeland' business?

[Edited 2010-07-10 08:22:52]

"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

Having been "outed" as a left-wing extremist, my biggest problem with Isreal is the United States continuing to give money and arms to them when it has been proven they can fend for themselves. They try to make things so much better for their own Israeli base while seeming to ignore and push away into ghettos the minorities. I also have a problem with them being touted as a Jewish state when the land is sacred to Christians and Muslims as well.

Quoting dxing (Reply 14):Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
Many of us on left realize that Israel has been treating the Palestinians in the Gaza strip, really bad for a while now.

Do you also think lobbing rockets on an almost daily basis into Israel is treating someone badly?

After the rockets are lobbed into Israel from Gaza/West Bank, the media always follows that with "The attack was in retaliation for Isreal doing XYZ."

Big huge blanket. There is a section of Southwest Portland where Catholic Latinos, Jews, and Muslims all live together. There are both a mosque and a synagogue and churches nearby. There is no decapitations. No bombs. No rockets being lobbed. No fist fights. The cops rarely patrol the area. How many Muslims from Morrocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Indonesia work hard to fly planes into buildings? Much like the Evangelical "Christians" of the United States, these Muslims that want "death to America" are small in number.

Quoting dxing (Reply 14):Do you also think lobbing rockets on an almost daily basis into Israel is treating someone badly?

As I continue to say. I don't hate Israel, I just think their "wounded animal" Facade is long gone. I'm not saying they shouldn't protect themselves when they're attacked, I actually supported them against Hamas in the 2005 summer war. I just think that if they want the undivided support of America, they need to also respect other people's human rights. How are you helping things by stopping toilet paper and baby food from getting into the Gaza strip? It's beyond extreme, and frankly, I don't care for it and neither does the vast majority on the political left. On the other hand, the political right continues to make numerous excuses for Israel, as we with dxing. Excuses that support Israel in a lot of their strong arm tactics.

I can't believe there are posters who are equating modern Israel to Nazi Germany. I want to be clear. Those posters are saying that the Jewish treatment of non-Jews is worse than the Nazi Solution to the Jews?

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

If you're Jewish, sure. If you're Palestinian in the occupied territories, I don't think security checkpoints and blockades are exactly in line with what you call "left thinking".

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):I can't imagine a female who cares about equality wanting to live in another country in the region.

Perhaps being merely the most palatable country "in the region" is not good enough for women or those on the left to autoamtically support?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):Perhaps a better question would be why so many people in the US do support Israel unconditionally.

AIPAC.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4): I think a better question would be why do so many on the right think of the Israeli government as absolutely infallible.

They don't think the Israeli regime is infallible anymore than they thought Batista, the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Ferdinand Marcos, Noriega, the Saudis, Hosni Mubarak, Pervez Musharraf or numerous other regimes useful for pragmatic reasons, but largely at odds with Western views on liberty, were infallible. Israel is politically powerful stateside and regionally powerful in the Middle East. Take those two points away and Israel is no more interesting to the Right than a dozen poor and terrorized countries in Africa they ignore.

By my rough estimate around 150000 Americans were killed on the streets by other Americans, presumably Christian, since 2002. Zero Muslims have flown planes into buildings since 2002 and only a hanful have ever done that in history. Do you also hate these far more deadly Christians who kill in far greater numbers every week?

I don't have a problem with Israel, the country. I have a problem with Israel's government. I have said that I support Israel's right to exist, but that doesn't mean that Palestine should not exist. And quite frankly, I have yet to see steps taken to stabilize a region that has long been volatile and seen many battles.

Should Palestine take steps? Yes. Renounce terrorism (this would apply to Hamas) as a condition for peace.
Should Israel take steps? Yes. Stop any further West Bank settlements and return the lands captured in the 1967 war, lands that originally were not meant for them. If they claim to have an advanced military I see no threat from possible strikes from Syria and Lebanon.

I think the real anti-Israel sentiment stems from the fact that Israel wants peace and prosperity without giving anything in return. It wants rockets from Palestine to cease, but has yet to give them their land as was agreed by the UN at the time. It wants to be secured from its Arab neighbors, yet won't take any steps for peace with them. Now we see that it wants to maintain a stable tie with Turkey and yet won't acknowledge that it messed up. Nothing is free and unless Israel prefers isolation (which I think it does), then it should take steps to ensure stability and prove it is not an enemy. Maintaining the status quo, though beneficial, will not last forever and I don't think 50 years will go by without an American president changing stance and demanding more from Israel.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 21):I want to be clear. Those posters are saying that the Jewish treatment of non-Jews is worse than the Nazi Solution to the Jews?

Not necessarily worse, mate.

But most definitely 'similar.' 'Out of the same box,' one might say.......

What else is Gaza, other than the biggest 'concentration camp' the world has ever seen, up to this point?

Besides - as I and others have said - the motivation of the Nazis was political. The motivation of the Israeli Jews (I don't include Jews in general, in my experience the Jewish religion is as tolerant as many, and more tolerant than most) appears to be religious, not political.

To my mind, that makes it even worse........

[Edited 2010-07-10 11:10:05]

"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):I've been scratching my head over this one for a while. So many people on the left have a deep anger against Israel.

Anti-semetism has been a linchpin of progressives and socialists for over a hundred years. Jews have a centuries-old reputation for being shrewd businessmen and thus wealthy. Since the middle ages, when Jews acted as bankers lending money to feudal lords for their wars and castles, Jews have been accepted as useful to have around, but resented for their wealth and the fact that we were beholden to them for loan payments. Until the Christian churches relaxed their rules against charging interest, the Jews were the bankers for the world. Every once and a while an indebted lord or prince would demonize the Jews (as christkillers, etc) and chase them out of the area, or simply massacre them, mainly in order to get out of his debt payments.

When socialism was developed in the 19th century, and progressivism developed a few decades later, the wealthy were the targets. What better symbol of the wealthy than Jews, who had a history of wealth not only from banking but from a culture that valued education and skilled work rather than poorly-paid manual labor. You will find that in the past 200 years, all governments and movements that sought to increase the power of government, Marx, Lenin, Hitler, and even in the states there is an overt or covert resentment of Jews, a lingering resentment for their perceived wealth and business acumen.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):Anti-semetism has been a linchpin of progressives and socialists for over a hundred years. Jews have a centuries-old reputation for being shrewd businessmen and thus wealthy. Since the middle ages, when Jews acted as bankers lending money to feudal lords for their wars and castles, Jews have been accepted as useful to have around, but resented for their wealth and the fact that we were beholden to them for loan payments. Until the Christian churches relaxed their rules against charging interest, the Jews were the bankers for the world. Every once and a while an indebted lord or prince would demonize the Jews (as christkillers, etc) and chase them out of the area, or simply massacre them, mainly in order to get out of his debt payments.

Funny. why were then so many early socialists Jews (Trotzki, Rosa Luxemburg, Marx etc.). Why was the Kibbuz system originally set up by Jewish socialists, some of them so secular that they even bred pigs?
And why were, in medieval central Europe (as opposed to areas in Eastern Europe, where Jews were farmers and tradesmen), Jews restricted to businesses like money lending or trade, instead of trades like carpentry or blacksmithing? Very simple:
the church back then did not allow Christians to loan money for interst. At the same time did the guilds only allow membership to Christians. Jews had to carry out jobs, which were not guild-controlled. So some bbecame traders, others moneylenders. Now everybody needs a loan at some time or another, from a smalltime tradesman up to the emperor. But many debtors don´t like to pay back their debts, so a small pogrom from time to time did wonders to restore the finances.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):Since the middle ages, when Jews acted as bankers lending money to feudal lords for their wars and castles, Jews have been accepted as useful to have around, but resented for their wealth and the fact that we were beholden to them for loan payments.

Just as a matter of interest, Dreadnought, that angle goes back to Magna Carta in AD1215. And is based on a misunderstanding.

It's not commonly recognised that 'usury' - the lending of money in return for interest - was prohibited by both the Christian and the Muslimn religions for many centuries. And is STILL prohibited in most Muslim states. At the time of the drafting of Magna Carta, the Jews successfully argued that the charging of interest was NOT prohibited by THEIR religion; and, as a result, they were excluded from the otherwise general prohibition:-

9. Neither we nor our officials will seize any land or rent in payment of a debt, so long as the debtor has movable goods sufficient to discharge the debt. A debtor's sureties shall not be distrained upon so long as the debtor himself can discharge his debt. If, for lack of means, the debtor is unable to discharge his debt, his sureties shall be answerable for it. If they so desire, they may have the debtor's lands and rents until they have received satisfaction for the debt that they paid for him, unless the debtor can show that he has settled his obligations to them.

"10. If anyone who has borrowed a sum of money from Jews dies before the debt has been repaid, his heir shall pay no interest on the debt for so long as he remains under age, irrespective of whom he holds his lands. If such a debt falls into the hands of the Crown, it will take nothing except the principal sum specified in the bond.

"11. If a man dies owing money to Jews, his wife may have her dower and pay nothing towards the debt from it. If he leaves children that are under age, their needs may also be provided for on a scale appropriate to the size of his holding of lands. The debt is to be paid out of the residue, reserving the service due to his feudal lords. Debts owed to persons other than Jews are to be dealt with similarly."

Until the international community stops taking sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict there will not be a solution. Internally, Israel and Palestine both need to sort out their own huge divisions (Fatah and Hamas and the growing tension between Secular and Orthodox Jews in Israel) to be able to work out a solution.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):You will find that in the past 200 years, all governments and movements that sought to increase the power of government, Marx, Lenin, Hitler, and even in the states there is an overt or covert resentment of Jews, a lingering resentment for their perceived wealth and business acumen.

Yes, but only because it serves an opportunistic political purpose to do so.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):Anti-semetism has been a linchpin of progressives and socialists for over a hundred years. Jews have a centuries-old reputation for being shrewd businessmen and thus wealthy

This statement is also a bit of a misnomer as Jews had been among the most vociferous participants of progressive movements and European socialism for much of the 20th century. You forget that our ancestors are also highly prominent in law and academia, two disciplines displaying measurable tendencies toward leftist views for most of the last 75 years.

If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 15): Then why the same "people on the left" so often cut a blank check to leftist dictatorships like Cuba, Venezuela or even worse?

The word and practice of Hypocricy comes to mind. Can you practice hypocricy? I guess so. Many people and countries, including Israel do. Europeans seem to be experts, as does the US. Name one country who are not hypocritical at one time, or all the time. One of course cannot forget the Muslim countries, no, no ,no. Democratic, not so much, not Democratic, more than most by far. It is the way of the world. Religions, the worst in some cases. Who makes up all these countries and religions? why people do.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):Really, the fact that the Holocaust is used as a sort of overriding justification for everything Israel does is a slap in the face to those who died.

Completely agree.

I wonder what the outcome would have been had Turks attacked and boarded Israeli relief ships in international waters, sure as shit flies of a shovel Israel would have most shouted long and loud about anti semitic behavior and maybe even launched a strike against Turkey.

Quoting dxing (Reply 14):Then again the political situation was completely different. The blacks in SA weren't tossing rockets at white settlements nor threatening to kill every single white person in the country.

You might want to talk to some white South Africans before you make a statement like that.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):You might want to talk to some white South Africans before you make a statement like that.

I thought it was fairly common knowledge in Commonwealth countries that Americans generally have a poor understanding of what transpired in 1970s and 1980s South Africa. Our media was never very focused on what went on there, so you have to excuse our ignorance.

If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

Quoting us330 (Reply 17):Gaza and the West Bank aren't a part of Israel

So why does Israel keep expanding settlements in the West Bank?

I'm very supportive of Israel's right to exist, but I'd like them to show more of an interest in peace than they currently are showing. Not involving themselves in land grabs would be a very good start.

Quoting dxing (Reply 14):Israel has been willing to give up land, abandon settlements, offer financial aid, as well as sign an agreement giving the Palestinians their own land to rule over. Hamas has yet to say they acknowledge Israel's right to even exist.

Until something happens and they take it all back and go back to square one. Israel goes back to being a high tech western nation and the Palestinians go back to being blockaded, restricted, and without a state of their own. Israel has Hamas to thank for why they don't get called on their behavior. The status quo is in Israel's favor and their BATNA is much better than the Palestinian's. In short, they don't need peace as much as peace needs them, and when you are talking about some of the right wing hardliners in Israel, peace probably works against their interests.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 21):Those posters are saying that the Jewish treatment of non-Jews is worse than the Nazi Solution to the Jews?

No, but it is sadly ironic how the Israelis treat the Palestinians and use the Holocaust as part of their justification.

Netanyahu said Israel is prepared to take risks for peace as long as it doesn’t have to face a threat such as the 2007 seizure of the Gaza Strip by Hamas.

The Islamic movement rejects Israel’s right to exist and fired about 3,200 rockets and mortars into Israel in 2008, according to the Israeli army. Israel cited the attacks as the reason for its military offensive in Gaza in December 2008, which left more than 1,000 Palestinians and 13 Israelis dead.

Hamas, classified as a terrorist group by the U.S. and Israel, continued to fire rockets after the operation. The number of projectiles fired from Gaza totaled 708 last year and about 160 so far this year, the army said June 8.

So again I ask, how long would we be willing to tolerate Mexico lobbing rockets across the border into Chula Vista (although that would probably result in an improvement), El Paso, or Brownsville and how interested would we be in a peace agreement as long as they continued to do that?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 20):As I continue to say. I don't hate Israel, I just think their "wounded animal" Facade is long gone.

Cornered animal is more the term and it is true. They have their backs to the sea.

I don't think they should ever get the "undivided" support of the United States. They are just as capable of making mistakes as any other country. In case you don't remember we caught them spying on us a few years back.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 20):How are you helping things by stopping toilet paper and baby food from getting into the Gaza strip?

They demand to examine every box headed into Gaza and the West Bank for weapons or explosives. Given the amount of rockets that have been fired out of those locations I don't see that as an unreasonable request. Once the freight has been examined it is released for shipment.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 20):On the other hand, the political right continues to make numerous excuses for Israel, as we with dxing. Excuses that support Israel in a lot of their strong arm tactics.

I don't see how demanding security against attack is an "excuse". Sounds like you are playing a two tier game, one set of rules for the Palestinians (fire all the rockets you want) and another for Israel (you can't do anything to defend yourself and really ought to surrender all the land you've gained through blood).

Quoting signol (Reply 30):The Pan African Congress, a radical branch that split off from the ANC, used the slogan "One
settler, one bullet" to encourage uprising against the government of the time.

Agreed, but their demands were to rule the country, not to eliminate the country and all the white people in it.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he’s willing to negotiate the future of West Bank settlements “right away” if Palestinians agree to meet face- to-face for Middle East peace talks.

During an interview yesterday on CNN’s “Larry King Live,” Netanyahu said the settlements would be among the first topics if Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas dropped his demand for a freeze on construction of West Bank settlements as a condition for beginning direct talks.

“One of the things we’ll discuss right away is this issue of settlements,” Netanyahu said. “Let’s just get down and talk.”

If the Palestinians think that Israel will give up any part of Jerusalem though, they must be smoking some good crack.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):Until something happens and they take it all back and go back to square one.

Why wouldn't they? OBL offered to make peace with us several years ago, did we pull out of Afghanistan?

Quoting dxing (Reply 14):Then again the political situation was completely different. The blacks in SA weren't tossing rockets at white settlements nor threatening to kill every single white person in the country.

You're right. They had to lie down and take it. The Palestinians aren't.

-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."-Carl Sagan

Quoting dxing (Reply 38):They've said they will discuss the building if the Palestinians sit down and talk.

Ah, yes, taking a page out of the playbook of the mob. "Hey, why don't you give us a little something, and then we'll talk about whether we should stop doing to you what we've got no right to be doing to you in the first place?"

It's offers like that that stand as prime examples of how Israel is not that interested in any meaningful resolution to the West Bank situation, and I can't blame Abbas for not taking it. Israel needs to stop building settlements. End of story.

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):It's offers like that that stand as prime examples of how Israel is not that interested in any meaningful resolution to the West Bank situation, and I can't blame Abbas for not taking it. Israel needs to stop building settlements. End of story.

How do you take someone seriously that refuses to renounce terrorism against your country nor even admit your legal right to exist? What point is there in giving anyone not willing to concede even that much the time of day much less anything else?

Quoting dxing (Reply 42):How do you take someone seriously that refuses to renounce terrorism against your country nor even admit your legal right to exist?

There are political dimensions to PA and/or Hamas leaders being unable to take the positions you are demanding. Those dimensions will not be reduced until Palestinians feel less encroached on the land they already occupy. That is why the halting of settlements is such a necessary olive branch. The fact is that the settlement game has gone back and forth for years and there has been no consistent Israeli policy on the issue owing to a parade of Prime Ministers representing different coalitions with different interests - so if you put the shoe on the other foot - how are level-headed Palestinians to take someone seriously who cannot make a guarantee that their land will not once again be siezed and built-upon to satisfy rabid Zionists who come from Russia, the US or wherever and think it's their birthright to live in homes with IDF protection? That has to stop.

If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):There are political dimensions to PA and/or Hamas leaders being unable to take the positions you are demanding.

Just as the same political dimensions apply to the government of Israel unless you want a winner take all war.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):Those dimensions will not be reduced until Palestinians feel less encroached on the land they already occupy.

Other than dropping bombs and shooting them, what pressure does the Israeli government have to bring to bear on them? Remember, the land you are arguing over was won with blood by the Isralies after they were attacked. Israel gave that land up in the Oslo accords. Would we give California back to Mexico if they started lobbing bombs and motars over the border?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):so if you put the shoe on the other foot - how are level-headed Palestinians to take someone seriously who cannot make a guarantee that their land will not once again be siezed and built-upon to satisfy rabid Zionists who come from Russia, the US or wherever and think it's their birthright to live in homes with IDF protection? That has to stop.

The west bank and Gaza were completely under Israeli rule until the Oslo accords. Since then they have been governed by the Palestinians. The Israelis have only intervened when their legitimate security concerns are threatened by rocket and mortar launchings. The government has the absolute responsibility to protect its citizens. How seriously do you take someone who refuses to even acknowledge your right to exist? Who's starting point is that you must leave either by your own will or forcably? Look at the Oslo accords. The right wing in Israel didn't like them but agreed to abide by them. The PLO agreed to Israel's right to exist and renounced terrorism against Israel, they were almost immediately shown the door and replaced by Hamas who does not agree with either sentiment. Until Hamas changes its tune why should they be trusted? They continue to publicly say that Israel does not have right to exist.

Quoting dxing (Reply 42):How do you take someone seriously that refuses to renounce terrorism against your country nor even admit your legal right to exist? What point is there in giving anyone not willing to concede even that much the time of day much less anything else?

There's the fact that the West Bank is not part of Israel. I'm not expecting Israel to give up anything, I'm expecting them to stop taking things. There's a difference.

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):There's the fact that the West Bank is not part of Israel.

According to whom? The 1993 Oslo accords, which are still the working frame work for both sides states that until a final agreement is reached the territory is governed by a freely elected Palastinian authority but makes no mention of a permanent transfer before the final agreements are signed, which they haven't been. The land is still technically Israel.

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):It's offers like that that stand as prime examples of how Israel is not that interested in any meaningful resolution to the West Bank situation

Why should they be? They have a pretty nice life as a high tech western nation with friends who might rebuke them from time to time but simply will not take any action to force them to change their ways.

Quoting dxing (Reply 44):Just as the same political dimensions apply to the government of Israel unless you want a winner take all war.

Unfortunately that's where the Islamist radicals in Hamas and Zionist diehards in the Israeli right-wing have a goal in common.

Quoting dxing (Reply 44):Would we give California back to Mexico if they started lobbing bombs and motars over the border?

Quite a different history there, no? The Mexicans stole land and resources from the tribes native to California, and then we took same from them...pretty even if you ask me since the only losers in the end are now becoming billionaires making casinos throughout Redwood country and the Sacramento valley.

Quoting dxing (Reply 44):Look at the Oslo accords. The right wing in Israel didn't like them but agreed to abide by them

If they were ever able to secure more power in the Knesset that would certainly change. There are already actors in the government who have called for a reversal. This is why it is imperative for incumbent Israeli governments to lead on peace and prevent those elements from securing a nasty future for decades to come.

Quoting dxing (Reply 44):The PLO agreed to Israel's right to exist and renounced terrorism against Israel, they were almost immediately shown the door and replaced by Hamas who does not agree with either sentiment. Until Hamas changes its tune why should they be trusted?

Hard to trust them for sure but you still have to get to a table and talk given the alternatives. Money still talks more than anything and if you show the people who voted for Hamas that they can't take care of them as well as you can they'll do things differently next time they go to the polls.

If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

Not really, before the Palestinians were there Israel existed. If nothing else the story have come full circle.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 48):If they were ever able to secure more power in the Knesset that would certainly change.

What if....... we could play that game all day.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 48):There are already actors in the government who have called for a reversal.

I don't blame them a bit. As Krauthammer put it, every time Israel gives an inch another mile is expected but no demands are placed on Hamas, not even the expectation that they will renounce terrorism and recognize Israels right to exist before they sit down to talk.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 48):Hard to trust them for sure but you still have to get to a table and talk given the alternatives.

Again, what is there to talk about when the Hamas starting point is that you must leave or die.