Not sure what you want blizzard to do? You can't fix the player population's problem. The problem is the player, not the encounter design. People are clearing it on normal, people are clearing it on heroic, people are clearing it on flex. LFR has the LEAST amount of mechanics. LEAST. You can't tell these people they are bad, because they are so bad they can't grasp the concept of bad.

So far I have done most of my LFRs without any guildies. All of them went rather smooth tho not without wipe. Just maybe I actually tried put some effort to explain the tactics myself. Everyone listened and if something went wrong we were able to resolve the issue before next pull.

So either I am extremly lucky or some of you simply don't want to put the effort to make the group work. I believe that 99% of groups are capable of killing any boss in SoO LFR with no big deal if only someone takes some time to explain stuff. You know, heroic guilds also wipe on stuff that they see for the first time (even after knowing the mechanics from journal) unless they overgear particular boss. The key to good LFR is patience - especially at the point when the content is fresh. I've never been in an LFR that I couldn't influence somehow to make it work better. So maybe it's not the problem with content or other people but you...

Sure, hopeless groups do happen but personally I have never econutered more than 1 group like that per whole content since the LFR is out. It's the type of group where majority of people just won't listen and won't do their job. But that really is kinda rare. Vast majority of people actually wants a smooth run and will try to work for that if they are given some aid.

I didn't read this full thread (it got a lot of ppl talking fast), however, I did want to point out a contradiction in the original post. If another poster mentioned this already, my apologies in advanced.

If the OP want a fresh run every time, and the OP complains that a tank isn't joining their run that's already started, then how is the OP complaining about a system that puts you into an already started run, if the OP wants the system to help the LFR group out by getting tanks in their already started run?

Does the OP want the system to give fresh runs every time, or do they want a system that pulls ppl into an already started run? You can't have both...

For dps the que is insanely long even on Wednesday (1 hour +). Should a tank or healer leave the time needed for replacements is such that by then probably the raid group will have already been disbanded. The second wing is an unbelievable time sink. Especially on Dark Shamans and Nazgrim the constant wiping make it feel like heroic progression.

If the idea behind the implementation of the quick gearing up through timeless isle was to help new players or alts jump into the new content faster then while it was successful it caused other kind of issues.Countless are the players who just open their 496 pieces, and without gems, without enchants and equiped with blue weapons join to cause unavoidable wipes.

The fact that Blizzard has yet to react means that they intent to keep things as they are as we will have to stay with this patch till the next expansion arrives.

The only solution for players like me, who dont want or donthave the time for normal raiding is FLex, but i will first have to find a group with rational requirements.

There are any number of things that Blizzard could do to improve the situation. For example, it could fix the ilvl computation to exclude gear not for the spec (or class armor type). LFR could require gear to be gemmed and enchanted. LFR could require all glyph slots be filled, and check the glyphs are not ridiculous for the given role. Finally, LFR could have automated mechanisms for identifying and calling out griefing, ninja pulls, and terrible underperformance.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

There are any number of things that Blizzard could do to improve the situation. For example, it could fix the ilvl computation to exclude gear not for the spec (or class armor type). LFR could require gear to be gemmed and enchanted. LFR could require all glyph slots be filled, and check the glyphs are not ridiculous for the given role. Finally, LFR could have automated mechanisms for identifying and calling out griefing, ninja pulls, and terrible underperformance.

The only thing I want is for the ilevel requirement for SoO to be a little higher, there are too many people returningto the game in there with 496 token gear that is unforged, unjemmed and unenchanted. I've also seen 2 seperate DK's in there doing 24k damage because half their gear is ilevel 463 which means they were too damn lazy to spend 1 hour opening chests for tokens.

Those 496 tokens are great for alts but god damn are they contributing to the shit storms in LFR.

There are any number of things that Blizzard could do to improve the situation. For example, it could fix the ilvl computation to exclude gear not for the spec (or class armor type). LFR could require gear to be gemmed and enchanted. LFR could require all glyph slots be filled, and check the glyphs are not ridiculous for the given role. Finally, LFR could have automated mechanisms for identifying and calling out griefing, ninja pulls, and terrible underperformance.

A system like that would take a lot of work and for it I would argue enchanted gear is a bonus but not something to bar you from (enchanted items are min/max and lets be honest LFR does not require that).

Glyph slots I would put under the same vein as enchants so not a requirement.

Gear - your gear must be 90% for the intended spec and be of the same armour type to get in. so say 2 items from an offspec would be allowed (pvp/dps gear for healers and tanks, and healer/tank gear for dps) any more than that and LFR system would deem it a risk.

Ninja pulls griefing and under performance should be managed by players alone. Although blizzard did say proving grounds could be a way of getting LFR raiders to pass a check to enter raiding. (use a proving grounds rating of bronze/silver with ilevel rating to enter a raid)

LFR could require gear to be gemmed and enchanted. LFR could require all glyph slots be filled, and check the glyphs are not ridiculous for the given role. Finally, LFR could have automated mechanisms for identifying and calling out griefing, ninja pulls, and terrible underperformance.

Which is all well and good, but how?

How do you know if someone is gemmed badly? and more to the point, do they know they're gemmed badly?

Lets put idiots being idiots to one side for the moment; how to you teach someone what's best and what isn't when they've never needed to know before now? How do you design a system which gets that across, rather than just punishes someone, for something they might not realise they're doing wrong.

The same goes for poor performance, what makes you think they've got meters? What makes you think they know they're being bad?

Outside of the meters (which are optional...) if I levelled a monk tomorrow and started killing things / completing quests, what measure is there to tell me that I'm doing badly? Of course there are places you can read this stuff, but again, why would I know I needed to read up if I don't know I'm doing badly?

Are there any other examples of games outside of MMO's where you have to read up on a 3rd party site what you need to do in order to play the game "right"?

It just goes back to something I think blizzard should have added a while ago, training, which is even more important now that casual is the way they're going. Simply throwing new spells at someone every few levels doesn't teach them how to use them and there's simply no hints in the game of the order / priority that these things should be used.

Again this is the royal 'you' rather than the finger pointing 'you' What you said makes total sense and I'd love for something like it to exist but it needs to not just be a stick to beat people.

Last edited by Mooboy; 2013-10-02 at 02:49 PM.

"The fact that you don't get it or like it is fine. The fact that you wanna ruin it for everyone else - that's why you're a cocksucker." - Bill Hicks

Originally Posted by Darsithis

The playerbase has been desiring this for years and when it's finally here, everyone wants to grab a pitchfork. Ridiculous. This community is disgustingly toxic.

Please send all PM's with a read receipt, that way both you and I will know I'm not reading them....

just did wing 2 with an amazing group, we had 5 dps above 150k, rest were 70k-110k, so amazing group there, but we still wiped once on Nazgrim because people just tunnel vision! people are so obsessed with being the top on the meter they start to ignore tactics just so they can be top.

i rarely see issues with low dps in LFR, its usually from people not listening to tactics, or healers signing up in dps gear for quicker queues.

Originally Posted by endus

A thread about how hard it is being a white dude is not really a reasonable topic.

Originally Posted by Gabriel

You are assuming Cybran actually reads the articles he links.
I suspect he is actually some Soviet algorithm gone rogue, transmitting from some forgotten bunker, responding to keywords by googling them and adding "+bad" to the search query, and then just copy/pasting anything it comes across.

How do you know if someone is gemmed badly? and more to the point, do they know they're gemmed badly?

Lets put idiots being idiots to one side for the moment; how to you teach someone what's best and what isn't when they've never needed to know before now? How do you design a system which gets that across, rather than just punishes someone, for something they might not realise they're doing wrong.

The same goes for poor performance, what makes you think they've got meters? What makes you think they know they're being bad?

Outside of the meters (which are optional...) if I levelled a monk tomorrow and started killing things / completing quests, what measure is there to tell me that I'm doing badly? Of course there are places you can read this stuff, but again, why would I know I needed to read up if I don't know I'm doing badly?

Are there any other examples of games outside of MMO's where you have to read up on a 3rd party site what you need to do in order to play the game "right"?

It just goes back to something I think blizzard should have added a while ago, training, which is even more important now that casual is the way they're going. Simply throwing new spells at someone every few levels doesn't teach them how to use them and there's simply no hints in the game of the order / priority that these things should be used.

Again this is the royal 'you' rather than the finger pointing 'you' What you said makes total sense and I'd love for something like it to exist but it needs to not just be a stick to beat people.

Thats the issue and I think proving grounds "could" be a possible solution. The LFR system could require say a bronze level in DPS/Healing/Tanking with ilvl. If you select an LFR dungeon have the required ilevel but not the achievement for bronze it would instead bring up teleport you to the proving grounds and ask you to complete the trial on bronze to enable you to enter the raid.

It might be seen as a road block but could be a gentle way of showing new players how that class should normally act in the environment.

just did wing 2 with an amazing group, we had 5 dps above 150k, rest were 70k-110k, so amazing group there, but we still wiped once on Nazgrim because people just tunnel vision! people are so obsessed with being the top on the meter they start to ignore tactics just so they can be top.

i rarely see issues with low dps in LFR, its usually from people not listening to tactics, or healers signing up in dps gear for quicker queues.

How does a healer queueing up in DPS gear make the queue faster? I understand how dps queueing up as a healer and then not healing quickens up the queue at the expense of everyone else but healers in dps gear?

There are any number of things that Blizzard could do to improve the situation. For example, it could fix the ilvl computation to exclude gear not for the spec (or class armor type). LFR could require gear to be gemmed and enchanted. LFR could require all glyph slots be filled, and check the glyphs are not ridiculous for the given role. Finally, LFR could have automated mechanisms for identifying and calling out griefing, ninja pulls, and terrible underperformance.

I cannot help but feel it would be better if the 90 levels that players have to go through before entering LFR taught them what gems, glyphs and enchants to use and how to perform their rotation properly instead of relying on the player visiting third party sites. There is little point adding a test to the game when it does very little to educate players how to pass it.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking

How does a healer queueing up in DPS gear make the queue faster? I understand how dps queueing up as a healer and then not healing quickens up the queue at the expense of everyone else but healers in dps gear?

Uhm, the healers are not actually healers but as you suggested DPS that are queuing as healers.

Tbh, it's ridiculous how some people tend to exaggerate when it comes down to LFR.
After reading some threads one could think that stepping in there is the worst nightmare imaginable...in reality, however, most runs (at least on reset day) are very, very smooth.

I really wonder if the people complaining about it most even go in there.

1.) Has anyone else seen an INCREASE in chance of joining an lfr ALREADY IN PROGRESS? I don't WANT THAT. I want a FRESH RUN.

My main point.

2.) I am sitting in an LFR, an LFR that was already in progress btw, and we get to the trash for the Korkron Shaman boss. Two of the tanks leave. I am now waiting with 20+ other people for new tanks. 10 Mins pass - nothing.

20 mins pass - nothing.

People start to leave.

I am now sitting in an LFR with 3 people, still in queue, 30 min later.

If this is how LFR is after Flex is introduced, I want it removed from the game. It's a waste of resources.

So you always want to get into fresh runs yet you complain that there are no people joining the runs that have fallen apart. Does not compute

Just get rid of it. Flex is enough since it's meant for people who can't commit to scheduled raids.

IMO they should probably get rid of LFR, I honestly can't imagine someone actually enjoys LFR in it's current state, when there's hardly any mechanics, but people still wipe because they don't want to take 2 minutes to read the fight, when there's a dungeon journal tab that's one click away. Blizz needs to do some sort of openraid format for flex IMO. Either that, or literally make every LFR fight a one minute tank and spank, which I don't think they are going to do lol.

This means tanking has taken a nosedive now. You'd also be flamed at for daring to queue in to LFR as part of a guild group, and if you sounded like a raider, you'd also be flamed.

I have never been flamed for sounding like a raider. I'm usually appreciated for coming in at #1 or #2 on HPS as well as dispels (when those are appropriate). Tanks are often flamed for not knowing what they're doing, but that's because raiding (including LFR) places the majority of the burden on them. They're automatically given raid leadership, and they often have to contend with mechanics that wipe the entire raid.

IMO they should probably get rid of LFR, I honestly can't imagine someone actually enjoys LFR in it's current state, when there's hardly any mechanics, but people still wipe because they don't want to take 2 minutes to read the fight, when there's a dungeon journal tab that's one click away. Blizz needs to do some sort of openraid format for flex IMO. Either that, or literally make every LFR fight a one minute tank and spank, which I don't think they are going to do lol.

I hear ya man but lfr is here to stay as long as the numbers are there to justify the dev time. If there is a decent amount of the playerbase still doing lfr blizz would not have the balls to just take it away otherwise they would risk a huge backlash.

Flex will not make this a quick death, it will be slow....prob very slow if at all, we wont know unless blizz releases numbers.

Last night I ran through all the ToT raids on my Tank. No issues there whatsoever.

Then, me and a friend decided to bang our heads against the wall (my monk and his paladin, both DPS) in the SoO LFR's. Immerseus 1 shot, Protectors 1 shot, Norushen was a 3 shot as we had to explain to people that killing the adds was a good thing to do, Sha was 1 shot. Then we went into the 2nd wing. Galakras was 3 attempts as the first 2 were Tank issues (one of them not going up in the tower and the second going in the Tower before the Demo was destroyed). We kicked that Tank and the next attempt he died. Juggernaut was 1 shot, Shaman were 2 shot, Nazgrim was 2 shot. It was a pretty good run overall. Much different than the previous week.

I have noticed ToT LFR's can be very volatile compared to SoO. A whole lot of unnecessary negativity. I just try and ignore it and do what I have to do.