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Did I just see someone post that bill couldn't have won titles without the celtics? Lol. That's like saying jordan wouldn't have won any without the bulls.

Bill was the best player in the league day one after the draft.

It's obvious. A "GOAT" that was an average offensive player in his time, and the best defender isn't enough to take the Pistons or Knicks of that time to a 'ship for years and years - if ever.

MJ couldn't win until he got the Coach and side kick, look at those two rosters and coaches and there is no ring.

Put West, Oscar, Wilt, Pettit on the C's as a rookie the same year as Bill. C's don't lose in 58 to the Hawks without Petit leading the way. As long as Wilt remained interested the C's wouldn't lose either. Probably a West led C's would have lost lost to Philly in '67, but probably not an Oscar team.

sorry - like all great teams, it takes a bunch of guys at different jobs to do it. Bill to his credit didn't get distracted like Wilt who was easily Bill's physical superior. Bill worked very hard and was clutch. But his foul shooting still stunk. His offensive abilities against inferior competition is perplexing.

Take away the high pace C's of 1957-1965, the Coach, the GM, the Owner, and the remainder of the NBA teams - lacking history, lacking leadership - none could mount a serious threat except the Lakers towards the end (from a much weaker conference). Wilt's teams got injuries/cold feet in 3 of Bill's last 4 years - and Wilt added his own key chokes. The lack of the other teams was as big as the greatness of the C's. Like another poster here to personify all this into Bill Russell is an insult to the rest of organization, and Bill himself would refuse to accept such a conclusion since he was there. I was there as a fan his last 5 years. Later a college player and AAU Coach and fan/historian for over 50 years, the first 15 or so as a Bill Russell is the GOAT'er. He's not, Hakeem is the All around GOAT Center, and it isn't even that close. Some had more impact on one side of the ball, none played against better competition, and none functioned in all areas better then Hakeem - just too bad we never got to see Hakeem in an up-tempo system - except his own forays in the Finals vs the C's.

I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!

i think the greatestness of Bill Russell is vastly overestimated... I would rate guys like he, mikan, and cousy probably in the 40's or 50's range. but in reality, they should be ranked differently in like a pre-modern era class of their own.

I think if you take Tyson Chandler (hell, Kwame Brown) and put him on any team in Bill Russell's era, they become the team to be and are the 2nd best big, behind Wilt (due to his O) and I would ventune to guess Chandler would average 20/25/8 blocks.

i think the greatestness of Bill Russell is vastly overestimated... I would rate guys like he, mikan, and cousy probably in the 40's or 50's range. but in reality, they should be ranked differently in like a pre-modern era class of their own.

I think if you take Tyson Chandler (hell, Kwame Brown) and put him on any team in Bill Russell's era, they become the team to be and are the 2nd best big, behind Wilt (due to his O) and I would ventune to guess Chandler would average 20/25/8 blocks.

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Well you have to look at guys in their time. Russell was clearly one of the 5 best players of his era. The best defender, easily the worst offense, good passer after Cousey retired.

I think Bill could play today, but, as a backup defensive scrub - partially due to the woeful state of bigs these days.

Cousey couldn't even make a D1 team, maybe not even most D2's.

Bill also had the best coach, and a great set of teammates. He worked hard and didn't give in to temptations, or racism. He was a great player and a great man. But those few that still argue GOAT are wrong.

AFAIK I'm the only verifiable person here that saw him play (starting in Fall '65). I had his poster. My Coaches and my Uncle all worshipped the guy. I did too until I saw Hakeem.

I am not a con artist! I am a businessman! I have a big brain and I'm good at making deals! People are just jealous of my BIG BRAIN! BAD!