Anime Decade: From Japan Cool to Cooling Off

asterphage Wrote:
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> Also, I feel like the system for you right now is
> the DS. Besides a fair amount of stylish,
> abstracted games, it's had a bunch of series for
> years now with interesting concepts, strong
> gameplay, and pretty good anime-style character
> designs.

Certainly off-topic here, but I agree on this. I find I dislike the looks and concept of about 90% of the games out there, but have no trouble finding enjoyable games for the DS.

He seems pretty bitter about a few personal things (the market's and fans' reception of Ergo Proxy and Eureka 7, particularly), but he makes a lot of great points about the anime industry in general and the tendencies that may be crippling it.

EDIT: the most interesting thing to me is:
"He seems to be making a sustained attack on... stories where personal problems are equated with problems of the entire world, without the intervention of society or the state."
This really hits on the head a problem with anime stories that is absolutely pervasive in almost any action-focused anime.

More fun news from the trenches of the anime industry. According to the LA Times, "Experts warn that Japan's estimated $2.5-billion anime industry is not sustainable without continued government help."

But seriously. If don't like what's out now, then look for older stuff to watch. I'm watching TF Masterforce for example. There's like 3-4 decades worth of stuff to look through. Complaining about the way things are now isn't going to change it.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".

I find it hilarious how personally some people take this stupid fucking discussion. As far as I can tell, Matt is just trying to say that the industry is collapsing for a variety of socio-economic reasons, and that's a damn shame. But hey...interpret that how ever you wish.

What is also amusing is how Vince seems to be completely missing the point that watching older shows will not, in *ANY* sense, prevent the further future collapse of the anime industry, which in turn will also prevent any potentially worthwhile shows from being made, something that probably yet unfortunatedly (for him) includes Vince's so-beloved moe shows.

Studio Gonzo for example, thought they were invincible and made LOTS of shows in a short time (at one point made like EIGHT shows a year). However, almost all of the shows were bombs (some had more popularity in the west). Strike Witches while being their most successful show, was too little too late and now the company is all but dead now and the second season to Strike Witches went to AIC.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".

Well, Ask John has an agenda, so I can't take it very seriously, and he really didn't do himself any favor by bringing Pres. Obama into the discussion on "truth".

But I'm starting to think the real problem in anime is on the production end, the reason people got into the biz. Attend"

'70s, shows done by people who animation was just a job. Maybe they were into it at some level but overall, it was just making the donuts, dig? Donuts with passion and justice to be sure, but, donuts.

'80s is when fanboys started to get into the system, and they started to work their favorite 'things' into the shows, in the script, in the storyboard, hidden in a trio of in-betweens and even in a key cel, fully animated. In the '70s we get a pantie shot of Jun from Gatchaman because the animator was bored and figured it would be fun, in the '80s the pantie shot became more frequent and obvious.

(and to note, Jun doesn't really have panties per se, they're more like the bottoms of a cheerleader outfit. Which, of course, can be sexualized in its own right.)

'90s, the fanboys were getting into positions of power, and what used to be 'fan service' bits became the reason for entire shows existing. And it started to not be fun anymore.

(and yet, somehow, the old guard kept on trucking and we got Giant Robo and Tekkaman Blade and The Cockpit)

the 2k time it went overboard as the third generation, fanboys raised on anime produced by fanboys, came into the system and look what's happening now. Fan Service has been replaced by Fetish. And the snake started eating its own tail.

"fans continue to demand cheaper anime and increasingly hesitate to financially support the medium they supposedly love, and fail to encourage the industry to continue developing artistic, expressive, creative, and unique anime by ignoring the artistic and unconventional shows that do appear."

SteveH Wrote:
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> '80s is when fanboys started to get into the
> system, and they started to work their favorite
> 'things' into the shows, in the script, in the
> storyboard, hidden in a trio of in-betweens and
> even in a key cel, fully animated.

This isn't *just* fanboys, it's animators in general. You'll find plenty of examples from Disney, MGM or WB where key animators or inbetweeners got in some gag or naughty bits to break the boredom of repetitive drawing for 12hours or so.

Kwesi K. Wrote:
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> SteveH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > '80s is when fanboys started to get into the
> > system, and they started to work their favorite
> > 'things' into the shows, in the script, in the
> > storyboard, hidden in a trio of in-betweens and
> > even in a key cel, fully animated.
>
> This isn't *just* fanboys, it's animators in
> general. You'll find plenty of examples from
> Disney, MGM or WB where key animators or
> inbetweeners got in some gag or naughty bits to
> break the boredom of repetitive drawing for
> 12hours or so.

I'm sorry, once again I failed to explain in aching detail what I was saying, assuming context and innate knowledge would make my point obvious.

I was referring to fanboys BECOMING animators, see. And I know it happened here in the US as well as Japan. But you're talking fanservice by bored staff (as in Japan in the '70s) when I was referring to the fanboys amping it up, such as that guy who just LOVES his wobbly smoke trails in a missile launch. Itano? Entire scenes in a show would be constructed JUST to allow him to get that effect in there.

Yutaka Yamamoto is quite the hypocrite because the anime he directs are MOE. The guy directed Kannagi Crazy Shrine Maidens and supervised my favorite OVA of last year, Black Rock Shooter (which is what he was talking about when he partnered with Good Smile Company). He's basically been butthurt ever since Kyoto Aniamtion fired him after doing the first for episodes of Lucky Starand since then, Kyoani's been probably the best studio out today since everything they make is a hit and don't suffer the short comings and setbacks other studios have been having.

I know that the industry has been having problems but moe has been the scapegoat. It's been moe anime that's been keeping the industry alive, not hurting hit.

And the most ironic thing is him holing the Fractle poster, which the Japanese companies pulled from Funimation streaming since they think that's how episode rips on the internet are coming from.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".

Combined 500,000 unit sales of nine volumes of a series breaks down to 65,000 units per disc, but that's only an average -- the last volume only sold 26,000 copies. These aren't numbers to sneeze at, but neither do they prove mainstream success.

You want mainstream? The first Final Fantasy: Advent Children movie sold more than 100,000 Blu-Rays in the first day it came out and 400,000 copies in the first week. It's since broken a million in Japan alone, and two million worldwide. When a moe title starts selling in those volumes I'll start calling it mainstream.

But that said, good for the K-On people for moving copies -- I know it's hard for you to understand, but I WANT anime companies to survive, even if they're making things I don't have any interest in. But it's going to take more than this to save the industry.

Well the thing with K-On is, there's been a lot of merchandise selling. Plus, there's been people who are crazy enough to buy the instruments associated with the characters.

Can't forgot that K-On is getting a theatrical movie in the December.

They've TRIED to make anime that braches into western mainstream. They've been doing Marvel properties with studio Madhouse. All have been huge bombs so far because the anime audience and the superhero audience are rarely the same.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".

MattAlt Wrote:
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> >You still want to call moe a niche market?
>
> I do.
>
> Combined 500,000 unit sales of nine volumes of a
> series breaks down to 65,000 units per disc, but
> that's only an average -- the last volume only
> sold 26,000 copies. These aren't numbers to sneeze
> at, but neither do they prove mainstream success.
>
>
> You want mainstream? The first Final Fantasy:
> Advent Children movie sold more than 100,000
> Blu-Rays in the first day it came out and 400,000
> copies in the first week. It's since broken a
> million in Japan alone, and two million worldwide.
> When a moe title starts selling in those volumes
> I'll start calling it mainstream.
>
> But that said, good for the K-On people for moving
> copies -- I know it's hard for you to understand,
> but I WANT anime companies to survive, even if
> they're making things I don't have any interest
> in. But it's going to take more than this to save
> the industry.

All moe anime are indistinguishable and interchangeable. The sale of any moe dvd can be combined with the sale of all other moe dvds therefore more than a million moe dvds have probably been sold. The thought is repugnant to me and it hurts my fingers to type it.

>All moe anime are indistinguishable and interchangeable. The sale of any moe dvd >can be combined with the sale of all other moe dvds therefore more than a million >moe dvds have probably been sold. The thought is repugnant to me and it hurts my >fingers to type it.

What are you basing this opinion on? Have you watched any of K-On? Of Bakemonogatari?

There's reason's why those have sold beyond the expected sales while many others haven't. There's things individually distinctive to those shows that make them stand out. They'e actually well crafted and well cared for productions, but you and many here won't notice that due to the general bias against moe.

There's a show out now called Madoka Magica by studio SHAFT. It LOOKS like a regular cute moe magical girl show but it's actually very dark and nihilistic.

Of course there's this:

see attached pic.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".

Vincent Z. Wrote:
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> What are you basing this opinion on?

All moe anime ever.

> Have you watched any of K-On? Of Bakemonogatari?

No, and don't bother naming any other moe shows because I've never seen those either.

> There's reason's why those have sold beyond the
> expected sales while many others haven't. There's
> things individually distinctive to those shows
> that make them stand out. They'e actually well
> crafted and well cared for productions,

I'm sure there's also plenty of comics and stories from furry-fetishists that are individually distinctive that make them stand out and are well crafted and cared for productions, but I'd never know because I wouldn't look at the filthy mofos.

> but you and many here won't notice that due to the general
> bias against moe.

I don't think bias is the right word. I think we'll never appreciate moe due to our general acumen.

> Of course there's this:
>
> see attached pic.

Look up "anathema" in the dictionary. Any dictionary. This is the picture that is used to illustrate the meaning of the word.

>No, and don't bother naming any other moe shows because I've never seen those either.

Wait, so you say "all moe anime ever" and yet also say in the same breath "because I've never seen those" and claim not to be biased?

But that's ok because you know what, I'll never watch Votoms, any Mamoru Oshi movie made I haven't fallen asleep to yet, or LOGH because I don't want to ever associate with those snobby pretentious mecha fans.

>Look up "anathema" in the dictionary. Any dictionary. This is the picture that is >used to illustrate the meaning of the word.

Using fancy words doesn't make you actually smarter.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".

Vincent Z. Wrote:
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> Wait, so you say "all moe anime ever" and yet also
> say in the same breath "because I've never seen
> those" and claim not to be biased?
>
> But that's ok because you know what, I'll never
> watch Votoms, any Mamoru Oshi movie made I haven't
> fallen asleep to yet, or LOGH because I don't want
> to ever associate with those snobby pretentious
> mecha fans.

I don't go to moe message boards and promote or defend "hard sci-fi" mecha anime (not that I take those particularly seriously nor feel any need to promote or defend them, for what its worth). On the other hand, you come here and promote and defend moe anime.

> >Look up "anathema" in the dictionary. Any
> dictionary. This is the picture that is >used to
> illustrate the meaning of the word.
>
> Using fancy words doesn't make you actually
> smarter.

You come to the next East Coast Chogokin Summit and bring KON or Saruhi Huzumiya or whatever the fuck you want...and I promise I will sit down and watch it with you. I will give whatever you show me a fair shot.

Sanjeev Wrote:
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> Ooh, ooh...can I play?
>
>
> Vincent Z. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...but you
> > and many here won't notice that due to the
> general
> > bias against moe.
>
> It's like you almost get it. But apparently, not
> quite...
>
> I don't go to country music forums and try to
> argue the merits of Myles Davis.
>
> I don't go to rally car forums and try to get them
> to go hybrid.
>
> I don't go to designer vinyl forums and try to get
> them to stop buying the latest hyped-up toy just
> because it's "hot".
>
> ...Oh wait--yes, I do.
>
> ...
>
> Anyway, I'll tell you what, Vincent. Here's the
> official Sanjeev throw-down:
>
> You come to the next East Coast Chogokin Summit
> and bring KON or Saruhi Huzumiya or whatever the
> fuck you want...and I promise I will sit down and
> watch it with you. I will give whatever you show
> me a fair shot.
>
> Deal?

If you do that, please by all means you must watch it all comfy with your ET bootleg stuffed animal . I will supply the snuggie and the ET.

>You come to the next East Coast Chogokin Summit and bring KON or Saruhi Huzumiya or >whatever the fuck you want...and I promise I will sit down and watch it with you. I >will give whatever you show me a fair shot.

I would, but I don't have a means of travel right now.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".

Vincent Z. Wrote:
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> >You come to the next East Coast Chogokin Summit
> and bring KON or Saruhi Huzumiya or >whatever the
> fuck you want...and I promise I will sit down and
> watch it with you. I >will give whatever you show
> me a fair shot.
>
> I would, but I don't have a means of travel right
> now.

Fortunately, the Summit is usually in August. You have time to make arrangements ;)