I hated this line: "Fleiss, Gordon and Incao all are known for their unconventional approaches to medicine. Gordon and Incao are staunch opponents of mandatory vaccination of children; Fleiss is a vocal critic of male circumcision." That really makes it sound like Fleiss is a wacko for not agreeing with routine infant circumcision. That's all we need, someone from the press to encourage Joe Blow American even more to have his little boy surgically altered at birth.

As for the article, I don't think anyone should be held responsible. Yes, a child died, but I think that people's rights to make their own decisions regarding their health care is very important. I don't want someone telling me what I must or must not do about mine or my family's health. I know that sounds trite, and I don't mean for it to sound that way. I just want myself and my husband to make our decisions. Life isn't a one size fits all, which is probably how the government would have it.

The little girl was perfectly healthy, and then she just died. That's very sad. I'm just wondering, what is the quality of life for HIV/AIDS patients who are taking all their medications? Is it better than patients who aren't medicating? Or is it just longer? I think often we mistake length of life for quality of life.

These are just my thoughts now. Maybe I will change my mind later. I like to stay fluid and open-minded about things.

~Nay

channelofpeace

10-01-2005 02:04 PM

I'm just wondering, what is the quality of life for HIV/AIDS patients who are taking all their medications? Is it better than patients who aren't medicating? Or is it just longer? I think often we mistake length of life for quality of life.

I agree, Nay...

I witnessed my mother's death from cancer four years ago. When she was diagnosed, she did the whole chemo/radiation bit but when i became apparent that she was dying, we had in-home hospice care. What a blessing! Her death was awful because i hated to lose her, but it was so beautiful and peaceful. Just because medical technology can do things, that doesn't mean it always should.

It is so irritating that they brought up Fleiss and his views on circ. What does circ have to do with this?

AntoninBeGonin

10-01-2005 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkydoula

[It is so irritating that they brought up Fleiss and his views on circ. What does circ have to do with this?

Absolutely nothing! : I want to write a letter of complaint to the paper.

I'm pretty sure what they used regarding circumcision is a logical fallacy, I just can't think of which one. Can someone help me out here? What fallacy is it when you lump something completely unrelated (anti-circumcision) with something really bad (child's death) in order to make the unrelated thing sound bad?

~Nay

Frankly Speaking

10-01-2005 05:11 PM

The writer is "building her case." She throws everything she can find on the table it villify the subject of her angst. Since circumcision is a controversial topic, she knows it will affect the thinking of some readers. It's the sign of someone who is a poor writer and suffers from some ethical problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nay

I'm just wondering, what is the quality of life for HIV/AIDS patients who are taking all their medications? Is it better than patients who aren't medicating? Or is it just longer? I think often we mistake length of life for quality of life.

From my understanding, (correct me if I'm wrong!) the quality of life can be very normal for a long time. This has changed some since the early years of the epidemic.

One of the bad things about the disease is that the victims can go years before any symptoms show up and with medication those symptoms can be supressed for a very long time. But once the symptoms can't be suppressed any longer, the end comes fairly rapidly.

I have a long time friend whose brother picked up HIV/AIDS at a Bankok brothel in the very early days of the epidemic. (early 1980's) His symptoms didn't show up for almost 4 years. He lived a good quality life for another 3 years with the symptoms increasing but it wasn't until the last 3 or 4 months that they were severe when he had to give up independent life and move back in with his parents.

I believe that with medications, the typical victim can live years or even decades of relatively normal life. The problem is that the medications are horrendously expensive and a lot of the victims just don't have the money to buy them. I have seen figures around $60,000.00 per year. Even with insurance, they quickly use up their benefits and are left to their own devices. Not many people make that kind of money.

hm, i am being lazy. prejudicial language? (she certainly was.) anonymous authority? she seems to believe somebody is out there with higher knowledge than the world's medical organizations. post hoc causal fallacy? that would seem to fall in there somewhere about the diagnosis & result.

that whole article was one long logical fallacy from start to finish.

Minky

10-02-2005 11:32 PM

Its a shame these two doctors got caught up in this case tho because it is going to make their other causes, co sleeping, intactivism, and forgoing vax, look much more fringe and unconventional than they are. I am waiting for the backlash from my family on the co sleping becos I recommended Fleiss's book to a few other moms wo read it and decided AGAINST co sleeping with their infant's.

Stevie

10-02-2005 11:36 PM

Just wanted to add that I have a friend who was diagnosed with HIV almost 14 years ago now. He has never taken a Rx drug, never. He HAS supported his health with natural supplements and vitamins, massage therapy and acupressure and puncture. He has also had symptoms of his disease crop up periodically; increased efforts with the naturals take care of them.
Everyone who he knows who was diagnosed at near the same time and took "medications" is now dead.

crazy_eights

10-02-2005 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevie

Just wanted to add that I have a friend who was diagnosed with HIV almost 14 years ago now. He has never taken a Rx drug, never. He HAS supported his health with natural supplements and vitamins, massage therapy and acupressure and puncture. He has also had symptoms of his disease crop up periodically; increased efforts with the naturals take care of them.
Everyone who he knows who was diagnosed at near the same time and took "medications" is now dead.

This is probably one of those cases where your friend gambled and won. In the early days of antiretroviral treatment, the belief was to get you on the drugs ASAP when you tested HIV pos. Now, they have realized that this practice causes increased drug resistance and the recommendation is not to use the drugs until you start to have symptoms of lowered immunity.

The difference between your friend and the mom in question is that she does not accept that there is such a thing as HIV or AIDS, and therefore never believed that there was a need for treatment. How can you need medication for something that doesn't exsist?

lise brit

10-03-2005 05:33 PM

"I'm pretty sure what they used regarding circumcision is a logical fallacy, I just can't think of which one. Can someone help me out here? What fallacy is it when you lump something completely unrelated (anti-circumcision) with something really bad (child's death) in order to make the unrelated thing sound bad?"

I believe it's called a false analogy, or did someone already say that?

Lise

Dave2GA

10-05-2005 09:09 PM

Here's my letter to the Editor of the LA Times:

Dear Editor:

It was regrettable that your writers referred to the distinguished Dr. Paul Fleiss as being known for “unconventional approaches to medicine” because he is “a vocal critic of male circumcision.” (“A Mother’s Denial, a Daughter’s Death,” September 24, 2005). Opposition to routine infant male circumcision is hardly “unconventional.” Indeed, the United States is the only country in the world where a majority of infant boys are circumcised for so-called “medical” reasons. Worldwide medical convention is to leave the infant penis alone in its intact state. Only in countries where the dominant religion requires circumcision or where prehistoric custom is still followed will one find male circumcision on a scale comparable to that in the U.S. Dr. Fleiss’ reasoned opposition to infant circumcision is actually quite conventional, as many Californians, all Europeans, and most Asians will attest. You owe him an apology.

Sincerely,

David J. Llewellyn

Attorney at Law

Atlanta, Georgia

Paddington

10-05-2005 10:36 PM

though they mentioned the circ, at least they didn't make the derogatory comments that the other writer on this topic did.