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There is only one point to remember about WN - it's apparently a recurring event. So in all technicality (and a fair bit of Murphy's law applied )... Kyuubey always has something to hope for. It's not like he'll be leaving the planet anytime soon, anyway.

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Urobuchi supervised this. He specifically said the only route that didn't fit in the context of the anime was the bonus route. That's mean that the "tea party" ending from Homura's route is a canon possibility in the context of the anime.

Oh, Urobuchi-sama, thanks a lot for at least still acknowledging a possibility of Sayaka staying safe and sound! After reading a couple of spoilers in this thread I was beginning to doubt it...

Triple_R already said most of what I was thinking. Ultimately, both anime and manga makes a point that Walpurgis is THE turning point. After Walpurgis, the rest is, life, so to speak, and at that point Madoka would be prepared to face life without using magic, like most people would do.

It's obvious Urobuchi thought things that way from the very beginning. The fact that in the anime Homura tells Kyoko that she was planing to leave town if she defeated Walpurgis makes that very clear!!!!

Exactly. I honestly find it a bit disrespectful towards Homura and her character to think that clearing the WN hurdle is no big deal. I mean, to say that is to basically say that Homura is an idiot (since she clearly went to great lengths to prepare a massive arsenal to use against WN).

It is a big deal. The anime strongly implies that if WN is defeated without Madoka becoming a Puella Magi then Madoka is likely to never become a Puella Magi.

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Originally Posted by Detective-san

I wasn't talking about the game, because obviously I can't read any of it.

The reason I think it's the only viable option, at least among the ones we've been shown, is because the anime ending means that whatever Kyubey does doesn't matter anymore. Now without the anime ending, witches still exist--what stops Kyubey from creating another chain of events even worse than what happens with the cast? This is a non-issue with the anime ending, of course--as there are no witches whatsoever to worry about.

You make it sound like Kyubey directly controls witches, as if he was some mad scientist and these witches were robots directly under his control.

Witches are fallen magical girls. Kyubey has no direct control over them. If he did, Mami never would have died (that hindered Kyubey's aims much more than it helped them).

So Kyubey can't "create chains of events". He can try to have events unfold in a way that is beneficial to him, but he can't make something out of nothing. He doesn't seem to have any army or powerful subordinates at his command.

He can merely make the most of the cards that are dealt him. And he typically does that very well, to his credit. But we shouldn't confuse him for some Evil Overlord type that has seemingly limitless resources at his command.

Spoiler for Lengthy replies to AuraTwilight. Put in Spoiler Space to save space:

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Uh, Kyubey is effectively omnipresent, since he possesses multiple bodies all ovet the planet. He has no reason not to constantly harasss Madoka.

Sue he does. How do people typically react to constant harassment?

Madoka may be a very patient individual, but even her patience isn't limitless. She'll get fed up with Kyubey at some point, and once that point is reached, her chances of ever contracting with him lowers.

And like I said, all that time wasted on trying to complete a very hard sell may well cost Kyubey countless other magical girls.

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That being said, while I did give EXTREME examples, the point I'm making remains valid.

Because your examples are extreme, your point is a bit overstated.

Again, it is not inconceivable that Madoka could reach adulthood without ever facing a personal tragedy that would make her want to contract with Kyubey.

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Just because Walpurgisnacht is defeated doesn't really mean jack.

It means plenty. It means that a direct and severe threat to her entire city has been thwarted. That sort of thing doesn't happen all that often (otherwise Homura and the previous timeline versions of Madoka would not have made such a big deal about it).

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That's really not conclusive.

What reason would Kyubey have to lie about this?

Also, in the montage of "magical humans" saved by Madoka (in Episode 12) there's not one male or adult amongst them, at least that I can recall.

Like it or not, the Incubators targeting teenage girls (possibly to the exclusion of all other humans) is an established part of Madoka Magica lore, and everything points to this being something that the Incubators truly carry out as their standard MO, and not merely something that Kyubey says that they do.

Now, I actually like to think that Kyubey could conceivably contract with any human, but I also like to think that there's a good in-canon reason for him to specifically target teenage girls. Putting aside the gender side of things, one possibility is that magical potential is at its highest in humans during their adolescence. That is something I'd be willing to believe. In fact, barring an explanation like that, there's no good reason for the Incubators to not try to contract with adults, so an explanation like this is needed to close "the plot hole" you refer to.

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Just because he only targets teenage girls on screen doesn't mean that's all he ever targets in the fictional universe of Puella Magi.

I wasn't really saying it was the only viable outcome, I'm just disagreeing with the assumption that the Tea Party Ending means everything is gonna be totally dandy for the rest of their lives. That being said, one could argue that it's the only morally viable conclusion we're presented with, since Madoka is forsaking countless despairing, tortured souls for her own transient, mortal, ultimately short and fragile happiness as a human being.

She's "forsaking" them in the sense that they now die or become witches instead of simply disappearing. Madoka's wish improved matters, but I wouldn't blow it out of proportion. It's not like Madoka brought normal life back to Puella Magi. She basically spared them the indignity of becoming witches, thus making their heroic works as a Puella Magi have more inherent worth (and less taint) to them.

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Also, What-Ifs are fun, even if they're canonically impossible.

I disagree, honestly. What-Ifs are only fun when they're canonically possible. Otherwise, they're little more than bad fanficton.

Marvel Comics' "What if...?" comics were very fun because they were viable outcomes depending on believable differences in how key events played out. I'd like to view this PSP game and its various endings the same way (not saying that I will, mind you; some I might find hard to swallow - the Tea Party isn't one of them, though).

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Walpurgisnacht is only significant because she's the obstacle Homura can't overturn no matter how much she tries.

No, Walpurgisnacht is significant because Madoka wants to protect her city and the people that are important to her, as was made abundantly clear in the first timeline. So if Homura wants to prevent Madoka from becoming a Puella Magi, seeing to WN's defeat without involving Madoka is essential.

Now, whereas somebody might be willing to make a great personal sacrifice in order to stop the destruction of their city, that same somebody might not be willing to make such a personal sacrifice for a smaller scale cause.

And you know what - Episode 4 makes this pretty clear. Madoka could have wished Mami back from the dead. But she couldn't bring herself to (which would fit with her expressing great guilt later on in the episode, just before Sayaka saved her). So Madoka isn't willing to be self-sacrificing for just any cause, imo.

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She's just built so much importance, hope, and desperation on this one obstacle that she's really, really hoping, to the point of confirmation bias, that everything will be fine if she can pull this off.

And maybe everything will be fine. It's not inconceivable that it would be.

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Also, what happens if Walpurgis is defeated, and then a week later, a construction beam falls on Madoka's face?

What if Madoka enters adulthood without ever encountering personal tragedy again? It could happen.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'm just saying that there's no guarantee that things are going to be fine like this for any extended period of time.

And there's no guarantee that they won't.

Why you're seemingly so strongly against Madoka enjoying a normal, happy human life is beyond me. This is what Homura fought and strove for. I think there's some value in seeing an end where Homura achieves her dream.

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Seriously, there is nothing in that ending that actually indicates that things are gonna be fine forever,

But maybe they will be. There's no reason whatsoever why people who get that ending shouldn't view it that way if they wish to.

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...Hell, for all we know, even if Madoka dies of old age, Homura will reset, presuming she's alive.

Ok, that really is a bit of a stretch. Homura is not so naive as to think you can protect people from old age.

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The point is I don't buy for a second that this ending is as innocuous as it appears.

And I think that this ending is perfectly fine the way it is, and is a legitimate happy ending that people who earned it should feel content to take joy in, accepting it at face value if they so wish.

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Originally Posted by Snork

There is only one point to remember about WN - it's apparently a recurring event.

We don't know how often it recurs though. I would find it hard to believe that it's yearly. If it is yearly, one would expect everybody to know about it by now, and to prepare yearly for it.

So I'm inclined to think that WN shows up, at most, once every fifty years. Any more often than that, and I think that the world would have caught on by now (since WN is viewable to the naked eye outside of a Witch's Barrier).

You make it sound like Kyubey directly controls witches, as if he was some mad scientist and these witches were robots directly under his control.

Witches are fallen magical girls. Kyubey has no direct control over them. If he did, Mami never would have died (that hindered Kyubey's aims much more than it helped them).

So Kyubey can't "create chains of events". He can try to have events unfold in a way that is beneficial to him, but he can't make something out of nothing. He doesn't seem to have any army or powerful subordinates at his command.

He can merely make the most of the cards that are dealt him. And he typically does that very well, to his credit. But we shouldn't confuse him for some Evil Overlord type that has seemingly limitless resources at his command.

I never said he was Charles vi Britannia. What I meant was, with the tea-party ending there will definitely be another Walpurgisnacht--more magical girls will be created and eventually become witches as a result of despair taking over them.

Now what I'm saying is all of that is impossible with the anime ending, heck, Homura probably even lost her ability to reset for all I know. Think of it this way: the tea-party ending is more like replacing all the corrupt government officials with honest ones, while the anime ending throws away the entire system making it impossible for corrupt officials to even exist in the first place.

I never said he was Charles vi Britannia. What I meant was, with the tea-party ending there will definitely be another Walpurgisnacht--more magical girls will be created and eventually become witches as a result of despair taking over them.

You're right. That's one of the downside's to the Tea Party ending.

How I perceive the Tea Party ending is "Homura's best possible ending".

Exactly. I honestly find it a bit disrespectful towards Homura and her character to think that clearing the WN hurdle is no big deal. I mean, to say that is to basically say that Homura is an idiot (since she clearly went to great lengths to prepare a massive arsenal to use against WN).

TBH, I have long suspected that WN is simply invulnerable to all but magical attacks. No matter how massive an arsenal, Homura would always need at least one other Puella Magi with offensive spells to stand a chance.

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It is a big deal. The anime strongly implies that if WN is defeated without Madoka becoming a Puella Magi then Madoka is likely to never become a Puella Magi.

Of course, that applies mostly to the anime timeline with enough data exposure. And it occurs to me that, since Madoka/QB talk in ep 11, it might not even be a given. It is the full scope of things that helped Madoka realize what she wants from Kyuubey, and since that moment, WN arriving and Homura being in danger were only catalysts. Even if Homura had won, how long would Madoka have lived with the knowledge that "always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you... only to be turned into a lethal monster for all her pain, hopes and trouble"? So much the more that her friend's fate gave her a front seat view on what most of these girls go through.
So "Tea Party" is, like Triple_R said, the outcome Homura was aiming for. Naturally it's in her route. But that would leave the system intact, and it's pretty much the system Madoka was protesting against by the end of the anime. Even though without WN and similar threats she'd have more time to think and hesitate, her not contracting for the sake of changing the system may be far from definite.
Thanks, guys, it's your discussion that led me to these thoughts.

As to canon... There's no problem with any ending in the game since it's a whole lot of "what if"s and is meant to be like that. Arguing is pointless, since Madoka's wish erased witches in every timeline, making all the game routes into pure theory. In the end, there is one canonical world where Madoka is less than a ghost and magical girls hunt demons. However, we do have an official confirmation that all but one route were possible alternate outcomes in terms of the show's logic. Although to conclude again, episode 11 is likely a point of no return. Or more like episode 9 if we dig deeper - see my thoughts on Homura's chances of soloing WN, and even in the case of victory, we need to assume she had a huge stock of grief seeds, for we all remember in what state she finished the battle in TL3 even with Madoka's help.

just found something interesting, Walpurgis does have a grief seed, when playing around with the psp's game file, i found the sprite of Walpurgis's grief seed in archive.cpk\Scene_Griefseed\gs.pac\GRIEF_GS_ICON_W ALP.GIM, here is it

other grief seed here if anyone interested

Kyoko

Mami

Sayaka

Albertine

Charlotte

Elly (Kirsten)

Elsa Maria

Gertrud

Gisela

Izabel

Patricia

look like Kriemhild Gretchen is the only one who don't have a grief seed design yet.

Yeah that's right XD. Try to defeat Ultimate Gretchen in the flash. I couldn't even beat her!!

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Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
Friendship, be made! Magical power, gather! Starlight Breaker.... this world!

She's "forsaking" them in the sense that they now die or become witches instead of simply disappearing. Madoka's wish improved matters, but I wouldn't blow it out of proportion. It's not like Madoka brought normal life back to Puella Magi. She basically spared them the indignity of becoming witches, thus making their heroic works as a Puella Magi have more inherent worth (and less taint) to them.

She also leads them to a heavenly paradise, according to official word on the matter.

Also, cool, Walpurgis actually HAS a goddamn Grief Seed. I've been suspectign for a while that she might not have one.
The rest I'm not responding to because you're being repetitive and contrarian.

^ actually, I don't feel like underestimating the importance of Madoka's wish changing the fate of others. She doesn't undo the system because first, God knows how it would affect the history (remember Ume-sensei's yonkoma on the matter ), and second, she respects the wishes all magical girls put their lives on the line for. And sparing the indignity doesn't quite describe the opposite: in addition to losing every trace of conscience and humanity and becoming a living web of insanity and despair, a witch can potentially take all the good things the puella magi did and throw them out the window by causing as much grief and demise as the girl once averted. She can even ruin the wish itself in worse cases. Imagine Octavia were left alone; will you guarantee that Kamijou would never be among those falling prey to her someday? There's no sense in saving the day from Godzilla if you become one and ruin the city yourself (figurative as the example is, that's pretty much what the timeline from Madoka's dream was about). Puellae magi give up a lot in exchange for their wish, but with the new system, they can at least live their lives with a meaning.

TBH, I have long suspected that WN is simply invulnerable to all but magical attacks. No matter how massive an arsenal, Homura would always need at least one other Puella Magi with offensive spells to stand a chance.

That's an interesting thought, but I honestly hope it's not true, because it would make Homura look kinda foolish, imo. I prefer to see Homura as a very smart and cunning person. Almost like a Magical Girl Batman, basically.

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Of course, that applies mostly to the anime timeline with enough data exposure. And it occurs to me that, since Madoka/QB talk in ep 11, it might not even be a given. It is the full scope of things that helped Madoka realize what she wants from Kyuubey, and since that moment, WN arriving and Homura being in danger were only catalysts. Even if Homura had won, how long would Madoka have lived with the knowledge that "always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you... only to be turned into a lethal monster for all her pain, hopes and trouble"? So much the more that her friend's fate gave her a front seat view on what most of these girls go through.

I haven't played this PSP game, but I would think that in "The Tea Party" end, Madoka might never find out about "Puella Magi inevitably become witches if they don't die first". I mean, Sayaka is there in that Tea Party end, so Madoka didn't learn about this from Octavia.

So if Madoka never learns about this...

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Although to conclude again, episode 11 is likely a point of no return. Or more like episode 9 if we dig deeper - see my thoughts on Homura's chances of soloing WN, and even in the case of victory, we need to assume she had a huge stock of grief seeds, for we all remember in what state she finished the battle in TL3 even with Madoka's help.

Your rationale here seems reasonable to me. You're right that these may well be points of no return.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

She also leads them to a heavenly paradise, according to official word on the matter.

This is an interpretation of Episode 12 that I've always been fond of, but I never knew it was confirmed. Where was it confirmed? I'd genuinely like to read/see that.

This is an interpretation of Episode 12 that I've always been fond of, but I never knew it was confirmed. Where was it confirmed? I'd genuinely like to read/see that.

Well, the writer for the manga adaptation of Madoka Magica believes in it, and the writer of Oriko concurs; On top of that, the whole thing with Sayaka in the final episode kind of heavily insinuates it.

Well, the writer for the manga adaptation of Madoka Magica believes in it, and the writer of Oriko concurs; On top of that, the whole thing with Sayaka in the final episode kind of heavily insinuates it.