Game of Thrones: Post-Mortem of “Blood of My Blood”

In last night’s episode of Game of Thrones, we saw the return of several characters, and Arya reach a turning point in her stay in Braavos. It was full of revelations that had show-watchers and book-readers alike wide-eyed. Let’s dissect the episode a bit more with today’s batch of new interviews, giving us a closer look at “Blood of My Blood” and all that title implies.

The show is so sprawling and there are so many threads, but – at it’s heart – it’s largely about this good family that was torn apart. So seeing some of them connect again (Jon and Sansa; Benjen and Bran) was very satisfying to write and to shoot. And it was great to have [actor] Joe Mawle back with us – it must have been a trip for him to step back into the character after so long – but he’s also decidedly not the Benjen of season 1. So that was fun to explore.

Cogman also discusses Sam’s big scene with his estranged family in Horn Hill.

That was a lot of fun because Sam might not have a lot of screen time this season, but he’s got this big meaty chunk trying to pass off Little Sam as his own bastard son. And as much as Sam has gone through, I love exploring those family dynamics. His mother and sister and brother are all fundamentally decent people but his father is just a cold hearted bastard when it comes to his distant son. There’s a painful part of the scene where his father just unloads on him and tells him every hateful thing he ever thought about him and Sam can’t defend himself. We found that fascinating – Sam has killed a man, he’s killed a White Walker, he’s emerged as such a great hero, but he still can’t stand up do his dad.

The play scene in Braavos displayed a lot of self-awareness about how Game of Thrones is perceived and it seems like the writer had fun with that. Cogman tells EW:

I come from theater and being able to comment on the show and the reactions to the show through the players were so much fun. The show is often accused of being gratuitous in all kinds of way – the violence and the bigness of the characters. It’s a huge operatic story. We’re able to lovingly spoof ourselves but also play with ideas about how audiences view the show, good and bad, and how a perspective of a story changes.

EW also checks in with Tobias Menzies who has been AWOL from Game of Thrones since the Red Wedding in season 3. Menzies says it was a “nice surprise” to hear from the show and admits, “I’m not sure [the producers] knew themselves” whether or not Edmure Tully would ever return.

I think they’ve sort of found their way and chose what bits of the book they are doing. They just got in contact a little bit before we shot to see whether I was available, whether they could fit me in. It was a question of fitting in amongst my other commitments. But I’m a big fan of the show and was keen to make it work if I could.

Teasing his upcoming storyline, Menzies says, “[Edmure] becomes a pawn in a large political fight. He ends up having to make a very difficult decision over whether to betray his family.”

Maisie Williams talks to MakingGameofThronesthis week about Arya’s change of heart in “Blood of My Blood.”

She sees how Bianca reacts to Lady Crane’s talent. Arya’s seen a lot of backstabbing and snakey-ness, and now it’s happening right in front of her, and she has the power to do something about it. Lady Crane is such a warm soul, which Arya hasn’t come across in a really long time. When Arya sees someone so selfish like Bianca, it’s something that really doesn’t sit well with her. I think that’s the moment when she thinks: I’m not going to do this. I’m going to take it upon myself to put things right.

As for the risk Arya is putting herself in by making that decision, Williams says:

I think Arya’s almost forgotten about the House of Black and White in that moment. She gets involved with people very easily. She gets so drawn into personalities. That’s just something that’s in her blood. You know, the Starks trust far too many people. Jaqen makes it very clear that, if she messes up, that’s it. I think Arya never lets herself dwell on anything, so she doesn’t take it as seriously as she should.

David Benioff and D.B. Weiss look back at “Blood of My Blood” in the new edition of Inside the Episode, including the mysterious return of Benjen Stark, how Bran is now the Three-Eyed Raven, the play and Arya’s decision to leave, and Daenerys’ final scene, a mirror to Khal Drogo’s season 1 Dothraki speech.

John Bradley and Hannah Murray discuss Sam and Gilly’s visit to Horn Hill, how Randyll compares to dealing with Craster and White Walkers, and Sam’s mindset in dealing with his father.

Taking a look at the sept confrontation, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau discusses dealing with a fanatic like the High Sparrow, and Jonathan Pryce shares his insight into the crafty sparrow.

It felt uncompleate in every storyline and the lack of the “North – south of the wall” did not help either.

Randyll Tarly was good but the whole sequence from start to finish storywise was a waste of time. Sam could have gotten himself a little peace of valyrian steel somwhere in Oldtown no need for adull wisit to his family lasting for 10 minutes.

Hell… even Benjen´s return was kinda underwhelming. Watching that and Danys speech it was like i was watching “next season on GOT …” I dont want to watch that i want Stark vs Bolton NOW!

Freys was too short, Kings landing while it was a major development for the show it just is not intresting to me because i really stoped caring for these characters.

Arya got slapped around for 4 episode only to in like 5 sec go screw this im going back … :-/ That could have been done in 1 episode.

@pizdainpula…….thought exactly that even before Black Jack….er…..Edmure showed up. The title “Blood of my Blood” prompted me to think “and bone of my bone”. Gah…….Outlander on Saturday night, Game of Thrones on Sunday night……I’m in heaven!!!?

Missing Jon, Sansa and the North that much? 😀 It would be interesting to see how many Houses they can gather to their cause and really curious about Lyanna Mormont. Feisty little girl.

I really like season 6 more than season 5, it’s steadily good because some episode in season 5 were a bit off for me. This is season is awesome so far. We’re not even in the episode 8 or 9 which are usually the most fun with the biggest set pieces. Probably siege of Riverrun, Winterfell, Harpy, Yunkish vs Unsullied, Dothraki, Daeny. It’s really getting better and better.

Now don’t get me wrong,I do enjoy villains.But my problem at this point is who are the good guys?Jon?Ok,but that’s not enough.So many conflicts and only one guy to root for?There’s good and bad in everyone,of course.As it should be.But at the moment I’m writing most factions in the show are more inclined to the “dark side”.There where theories at some point that the WW might not be all bad and could team up with Jon for example but after Hardhome and The Door we know that’s not the case.So who are the good guys?Not complaining,I do enjoy these characters,just asking for your opinion.

It felt uncompleate in every storyline and the lack of the “North – south of the wall” did not help either.

Randyll Tarly was good but the whole sequence from start to finish storywise was a waste of time. Sam could have gotten himself a little peace of valyrian steel somwhere in Oldtown no need foradull wisit to his family lasting for 10 minutes.

Hell… even Benjen´s return was kinda underwhelming. Watching that and Danys speech it was like i was watching “next season on GOT …” I dont want to watch that i want Stark vs Bolton NOW!

Freys was too short, Kings landing while it was a major development for the show it just is not intresting to me because i really stoped caring for these characters.

Arya got slapped around for 4 episode only to in like 5 sec go screw this im going back… :-/ That could have been done in 1 episode.

This was a really bad, bad episode.

p.s.
And yea Dany is the crazy villain of the show we know that now.

I think it was actually ok. Its funny there are some over critical book fans who thought this was one of the best episode. I think it was good, but we had better episodes so far.

Well, I don’t understand why people are still thinking Dany is mad or a “crazy villain”. Perhaps, there is something interesting in the fact that she doesn’t want to become like her father but she has Targaryen blood. As Daario said, she is a real conqueror : she proved that she can’t rule a city as big as Meereen without the help of a man like Tyrion but she knows how to use her dragons, how to rally peoples. If Dany was a villain, or simply mad, she wouldn’t have freed the Unsullied or slaves from their masters. It is a contrast that I really appreciate.

OK, here is my take on the Dany’s scene. I think that it was irritating and out of place, because it was meant to be this way. Her speech kind of mirrors the speech of Mace Tyrell and that is the reason why it had to be in this particular episode. It may be foreshadowing that Dany’s arrival to KL will be as anti-climatic as that of the Tyrells’ army and that she may be outmaneuvered too. I do agree that KL will be burnt but that’s not the main problem. When Jon is revealed as a true-born Targaryan (and I think he is), Dany’s claim to the throne will no longer be legit and she will lose the purpose of her life.

I also think that Dany is being set on the arch of being tempted by power but that doesn’t mean that she will become a villain. IMO the course of events will save her from being corrupted too much but we will be forced to worry to keep our boredom at bay. Let’s face it: it would be boring to have her without any internal conflict etc.

However, my biggest concern is that Jon and/or his team may side with Littlefinger and that Littlefinger may try to play a kingmaker for Jon when his parentage is revealed. I do admit that Littlefinger may be very handy and that it would be a nice twist with his old rival Varys backing Dany but still I hope that Littlefinger will go in the final episode of this season.

Ser Gerold Dayne:
Now don’t get me wrong,I do enjoy villains.But my problem at this point is who are the good guys?Jon?Ok,but that’s not enough.So many conflicts and only one guy to root for?There’s good and bad in everyone,of course.As it should be.But at the moment I’m writing most factions in the show are more inclined to the “dark side”.There where theories at some point that the WW might not be all bad and could team up with Jon for example but after Hardhome and The Door we know that’s not the case.So who are the good guys?Not complaining,I do enjoy these characters,just asking for your opinion.

These last episodes pretty clearly set up a final showdown between the Night King and Bran, making Bran the ultimate hero of the story. But aside from him and Jon, there are still good people left. There’s Sam and Gilly, Benjen, Meera, Davos, Blackfish, and I still believe in the Brotherhood with Banners, though they seem corruptible, both by religion and thirst for revenge. Arya seems to have proven herself good for now by refusing to murder an innocent for money. The Faceless Men did their best to seduce her to evil and she resisted, possibly at the cost of her own life.

Ser Gerold Dayne:
Now don’t get me wrong,I do enjoy villains.But my problem at this point is who are the good guys?Jon?Ok,but that’s not enough.So many conflicts and only one guy to root for?There’s good and bad in everyone,of course.As it should be.But at the moment I’m writing most factions in the show are more inclined to the “dark side”.There where theories at some point that the WW might not be all bad and could team up with Jon for example but after Hardhome and The Door we know that’s not the case.So who are the good guys?Not complaining,I do enjoy these characters,just asking for your opinion.

The big three (Tyrion, Jon and Dany) are definitely good guys, no matter how much some like to put the latter in a crazy box. Tyrion and Dany have a dark side (which imo make them far more interesting than the ever honorable Jon) but their primal intentions are good.

But yeah, at this point of the story when bad guys are still winning, your question is very valid.

“The play scene in Braavos displayed a lot of self-awareness about how Game of Thrones is perceived and it seems like the writer had fun with that. Cogman tells EW:

‘I come from theater and being able to comment on the show and the reactions to the show through the players were so much fun. The show is often accused of being gratuitous in all kinds of way – the violence and the bigness of the characters. It’s a huge operatic story. We’re able to lovingly spoof ourselves but also play with ideas about how audiences view the show, good and bad, and how a perspective of a story changes.'”

I loved this! It was fun to see the writers addressing some of the criticisms of the show through the backstage interactions between the players.

When Arya gave Lady Crane notes on her speech, I perceived this as Arya conveying how she had felt so much anger when Catelyn and Robb were taken from her just before she thought she would see them again. Heartbreaking. Maisie is doing a fabulous job this season.

EW: I know you can’t talk future episodes, but do you have any tease for next week’s episode, “The Broken Man”?
B.C: All I can say about next week’s episode is there was a week of shooting a particular sequence/storyline that was my favorite week on set in six seasons of Game of Thrones.

Though Tommen may not fully understand what he’s doing, I think commentators are missing how stabilizing his and Margaery’s decision is, and how legitimizing it is for the crown.

However little Tommen had to do with planning the High Sparrow’s move, he seems to have recognized the power of more deeply combining the crown and the faith militant while talking to Margaery and the High Sparrow. Indeed, both Tommen and Margaery likely recognize the inherent power in the High Sparrow’s message and position, namely because he represents the will of the entire population around them (and because on a personal level, he seems to expose what’s least likeable within themselves).

Effectively, Tommen just assured that there will never again be the kind of popular uprising that nearly killed Joffrey, Cersei, Tyrion, Sansa, etc. He and Margaery won the hearts of the people.

Now was this mostly the brainchild of Margaery, working with the High Sparrow? Yes, it seems. However, Tommen is smart enough (as Tywin noticed) to realize the power of this move, even if “love” is one of his primary motivations. In effect, Tommen and Margaery just saved the city from civil war by combining the crown and faith militant in an unprecedented way, which seriously legitimized the crown in a way that we haven’t seen in the show yet. In short, he succeeded in making his reign the most popular reign in a very long time. And the historical parallels in this event, which combines God and Caesar in a significant way, is clear (Constantine immediately comes to mind, though there are numerous other examples, including current ones in places like Turkey, etc…).

In our narrow focus on who manipulated who, and who wants power for themselves, we’re missing the broader political masterstroke that just occurred. The crown now has the support of, at the very least, most of the people in King’s Landing.

The question is: will this move lead to an eventual loss of Lannister and Tyrell support, and could that come back to haunt Joffrey, Margaery and the High Sparrow? Possibly. But right now, Joffrey, Margaery and the High Sparrow are undoubtedly the most powerful people in the Seven Kingdoms.

Personally, I have had no significant interest in Tommen as a character. But to argue that his decision was purely stupid (or the result of just plain gullibility) misses the broader political point of what just happened.

EW: I know you can’t talk future episodes, but do you have any tease for next week’s episode, “The Broken Man”?
B.C: All I can say about next week’s episode is there was a week of shooting a particular sequence/storyline that was my favorite week on set in six seasons of Game of Thrones.

What scene could this one be? Any thoughts? Get HYPED

He’s either talking about “The North Remembers” (i.e. the North is reminded in the HBO description) OR

The Hound returning OR

Surprise LSH

Certainly this is the last gasp for LSH fans, it’s gotta happen in the next two episodes or it won’t happen at all, since the show is basically doing the show version of A Feast for Crows in the Riverlands in the next two episodes…

She has been phenomenal. I’ve believed every line…every gesture…every emotion that has come out of her this season. From her depression at being stuck in a cave, to her excitement about eating eggs and blood sausages, to her exasperation and defeat in trying to drag Bran…she has been so damn good. I’m very impressed.

Ok,I was talking more about this moment.Of course many characters have the potential to do good in the future,as some of them have done before.But Dany as a good guy after this episode?Not at all.She just asked her nomad tribes to go with her in Westeros,destroy everything,rape and kill everyone.If these are good intentions I guess the Night’s King is also a good guy.Again,that doesn’t mean this is gonna last,Dany has potential to do good,but at this point she is a villain in the story based on her intensions.What the future will bring we shall see.

Drogon has doubled in size, “Baby” Sam is almost “Toddler” Sam, but Cersei’s hair hasn’t grown a centimetre since the first episode. Discuss.

Actually, except for the last 5 minutes, I found the show quite satisfying. Perhaps it is because I have read the books, but Bryan Cogman’s writing always carries with it a true understanding of the characters and respect for Martin’s story.

And for those of you who were disappointed that there wasn’t a gruesome death, may Septa Unella follow you down the streets of your city with bell in hand. (She’d best do this quickly, however).

Another interesting thing to mull over – it’s how Lady Crane gets Arya to empathize with Cersei freaking Lannister. That is a sign that she’s growing beyond “Arya Stark” into a place where she might well become a Faceless Man. As the Waif and the Kindly Man show, there is room for disagreement and opinion between them all. How much have they disagreed on Arya? So perhaps the true test for the Kindly Man is whether Arya will go forward with an unjust kill or not? She was distracted from the moneycounter by Meryn Trant, so there was no real decision there. She stopped the death of Lady Crane based on her viewpoint of that entire situation. Perhaps killing the Waif will be her last test to enter the House of Black and White as a full fledged member who is entitled to her own opinion on matters, an opinion informed not by being Arya Stark, but by being a careful and empathetic observer of her surroundings.

Also the conversation she had with Lady Crane about how Lady Crane joined the theater. She snuck in and stayed. You could see she had regrets but not enough to truly regret the choice. But it played to me as a good viewpoint for Arya and the Faceless Men as well. Arya found it was cool to kill her enemies and joined up with a killing troupe! But you can get swept away by the passion and have it change your life forever. An informed decision to join the Faceless Men is far better than the way Arya has been trying to join up to now.

Funny for me today was that I’ve seen many posts of “filler”,”boring”,”nothing happened”,”no deaths” from the people that last weeks where angry saying “someone dies every episode”,it’s just for “shock value”,”there is no build up” etc.Exact same posters.So of course I can’t answer seriously to this people.

When the book!sparrows first appeared I was favorably disposed as they regarded the beheading of Ned and the red Wedding as sacrilege. Plus book! Cersei deserved to be taken down a few pegs. The nobility had for the most part little or no concern for how the war affected the common people except to the extent it invited the commons to revolt. Who does now? Margeary admitted her actions were as much to aggrandize her as to help the poor and I think this was accurate not just something she said for the HS benefit. It’s too easy to get caught up in the machinations of the nobility and not consider their effect. I hope the broken man will drive this home. So yes an alliance with the faith makes sense. Unfortunately with the HS it would not be an alliance of equals.

Nonore:
Well, I don’t understand why people are still thinking Dany is mad or a “crazy villain”. Perhaps, there is something interesting in the fact that she doesn’t want to become like her father but she has Targaryen blood. As Daario said, she is a real conqueror : she proved that she can’t rule a city as big as Meereen without the help of a man like Tyrion but she knows how to use her dragons, how to rally peoples. If Dany was a villain, or simply mad, she wouldn’t have freed the Unsullied or slaves from their masters. It is a contrast that I really appreciate.

Inga:
OK, here is my take on the Dany’s scene. I think that it was irritating and out of place, because it was meant to be this way. Her speech kind of mirrors the speech of Mace Tyrell and that is the reason why it had to be in this particular episode. It may be foreshadowing that Dany’s arrival to KL will be as anti-climatic as that of the Tyrells’ army and that she may be outmaneuvered too. I do agree that KL will be burnt but that’s not the main problem. When Jon is revealed as a true-born Targaryan (and I think he is), Dany’s claim to the throne will no longer be legit and she will lose the purpose of her life.

I also think that Dany is being set on the arch of being tempted by power but that doesn’t mean that she will become a villain. IMO the course of events will save her from being corrupted too much but we will be forced to worry to keep our boredom at bay. Let’s face it: it would be boring to have her without any internal conflict etc.

However, my biggest concern is that Jon and/or his team may side with Littlefinger and that Littlefinger may try to play a kingmaker for Jon when his parentage is revealed. I do admit that Littlefinger may be very handy and that it would be a nice twist with his old rival Varys backing Dany but still I hope that Littlefinger will go in the final episode of this season.

For me, Arya showed not a whit of empathy for Cercei. She projected her own, sudden losses of her father, mother, and Robb onto that character. Revenge for the death of her family and friends has been Arya’s arc since “Baelor.” That’s why there was such conviction in her voice when she told Lady Crane how her speech should have been written. Cersei will remain on Arya’s list.

Return of the Hound? I have no doubts that he will return next week, I am hype! So many characters returning! I hope to see Ian McShane as well, which is most likely. And maybe a reunion between Jaime and Brienne, and a Podrick and Bronn reunion as well!!! This episode got me hype af!!!

There’s one thing I’ve been noodling over in my mind since last night and I can’t come up with a plausible theory. Arya’s time in the HOBAW is over. She spent 2 seasons there. She’s a trained assassin. Ok, but WHY? Obviously she is my favorite character so I want a good payoff to this story. They could have shown her learning to warg, but they didn’t. Will she be able to “steal a face” when she gets back to Westeros in order to get close to/kill someone on her list?

I’ve always thought Arya to be “end game” material. Of the five season finale last scenes we’ve seen so far, 2 were Dany/dragons-centric, 1 was showing the WW army heading south, 1 showed Jon’s death and the other showed Arya on the boat to Braavos. That seemed indicative to me that her going to Braavos was a big part of the overarching story. But it seems like everyone else of the “original 5” has some sort of power or knowledge that is going to be a help to Westeros at large in the “wars to come.” It almost makes me wonder if Arya doesn’t make it to the end of the story.

I will speak for the rational LSH fans and say that yes, if she’s not introduced in the next 4 episodes, the dream is dead. I do not believe they will be introducing any new or “undead” characters beyond this season. That’s why this season has so many returns because it’s the last opportunity to do so. With potentially as little as 13 episodes remaining, about 12 hours of actual film time, there is no time to dilly dally with anything new. If she does appear, I do think it will still be tied to the BWB but unlike the books, I think The Blackfish will know about her and they will be fighting together to kill Freys and Lannisters.

Jon being the son of Rhaegar, the oldest son of Aerys, trumps Dany being Aerys’ daughter. Primogeniture, you know.
But Dany has her dragons, and I think Jon’s faith lies in the North and his parentage is more about his own identity, so I don’t really see a huge conflict between the two about who has the best claim.

Paul: Wouldn’t Snow be her nephew? Therefore not altering her claim at all.

If Jon is Daeny’s legitimate nephew, then he is the heir to the throne under the rules of primogeniture. If Jon is her illegitimate nephew, then he has zero claim at all: bastards are not part of successions. The only person with the power to legitimize Jon would be Daeny: and one could see her doing that only if she saw it as an excuse to get out of being monarch. However, she seems to be a person with a sense of obligation and duty, so unless things change, that probably would not happen.

Sundae: Jon being the son of Rhaegar, the oldest son of Aerys, trumps Dany being Aerys’ daughter. Primogeniture, you know.

Again, only if Jon is deemed legitimate. Bastards have no place in successions. After all, if a woman has sex with one man outside of marriage, then it “has” to be assumed that she has had sex with many men outside of marriage, and there therefore is little reason to think that we know who the father is. (There is nothing divine about human morality, to paraphrase Einstein!)

No no no. I really dont think she was sympathising with Cersei the Evil – what I read from that was that she was beginning to think of Lady Crane – her acting, how she was abt to kill her etc – hence the convo with her later; & the shot on the Sansa!Play actress (whatshername?) who was standing in the shadows repeating the lines – confirming Arya’s suspicion of her being the one who wanted Lady Crane dead.

The legal argument is a bit much for the show, but this is how each side could argue against the other:

Jon: Would argue that he’s the second legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen, who was first born and heir to Aerys II. Whether you follow absolute, male-preference, or the semi-Salic primogeniture used by House Targaryen post Dance, he comes out ahead.

Daenerys: Would argue that Jon is illegitimate either because Rhaegar could not legally take a second wife or (if she wished to maintain Targaryen polygamy) argue there’s no proof that Rhaegar married Lyanna. She could also argue that Rhaegar’s children were removed from the line of succession when Aerys named Viserys his heir post-Trident instead of baby Aegon. Daenerys was later named Viserys’ heir (she began the series as Princess of Dragonstone).
Also, she’s the Targaryen with dragons.

Ser Pounce FTW: Exactly!! She’s not mad. Yet. But who knows how things will progress.

Daeny is one of the primary protagonists. You cannot really do dynamic character development of a person going insane. The only way it would work is if Jon undergoes some parallel onset of insanity: and then it works only if both Jon and Daeny are aware of their onset of dementia, and part of the story becomes how they respond to dealing with that.

Exactly, and I would be extremely surprised if the revelation about his true parents all of a sudden would change that. For me, it would be so much better if it’s an internal thing, Jon struggling to define who he is when he finds out he isn’t Ned Stark’s bastard.
(Though I hope he’d come to the conclusion that Ned is still his father, just not his biological one.)

Do you really put Jaime in that list!?? He’s still as selfish – only him & Cersei are really what he cares for.

The only 2 redeeming things he has is:

His treatment of Brienne – who had saved his life & took him home; decent thing which all decent ppl in that world would have done.

“Good guy” is not just a decent guy, but a guy on a mission to rid the proper villains or at least protect others from them. Jaime really couldnt care less for those oppressed by his father, Joffrey or Cersei

Telling Brienne to find the Stark girls – which was Catelyn’s condition of release which again most knights etc in his position would have done. He is a fairly honourable warrior – that’s given – but that’s not what makes him good.

Both are hardly enough to make him in the “good guys” list after his thorough doucheness to start off – MAIN thing being he has no mission or life goals extending beyond his own few ppl- imo Margaery is much closer to the “good” side of the spectrum than Jaime.

Jaime would be less close to the “bad” side of the spectrum than before – but listing him as good I find hugely disagreeable.

Sundae: (Though I hope he’d come to the conclusion that Ned is still his father, just not his biological one.)

I think that the bigger issue will be that Jon will realize just how much Ned had to sacrifice to protect him (Jon). Ned had to lie, dissemble and prevaricate, all of which went against his code of honor, in order to protect one small boy and his mother’s memory: and to make it worse, many of the untruths, half-truths and misleading truths made Ned look like a philanderer or worse.

I will be shocked if, come punch time, Jon is not given the choice of one set of dishonorable acts or another set of dishonorable acts, and then the lesson of Ned’s choice will be hugely informative for him. And not least because, in Jon’s mind, Ned Stark will always by “father,” not whomever provided the sperm.

Wimsey: Daeny is one of the primary protagonists.You cannot really do dynamic character development of a person going insane. The only way it would work is if Jon undergoes some parallel onset of insanity: and then it works only if both Jon and Daeny are aware of their onset of dementia, and part of the story becomes how they respond to dealing with that.

I really dont think she’d go full crazy villain – but one emphasised part of her personality totally absent from Jon’s is greed for power – and I’m sure that would eventually pit her against Jon.
Jon is humble & a giver – Daenerys is arrogant & a taker – these are facts emphasised every season.

Now, she wants all Westeros – while North would much surer prefer independence under Jon after he rids the North of Bolton/Frey/Lannister influence – I assume that’d be the premise of a Jon-Daeny conflict – though I imagine the likes of Bran & Tyrion would pressure for peace.

King Crow: I really dont think she’d go full crazy villain – but one emphasised part of her personality totally absent from Jon’s is greed for power

Greed for power never has been an emphasized part of Daeny’s personality. Yes, she feels an obligation to reclaim her family’s “rightful” place: and Jon would if he was a legitimate son of Ned Stark, too. That is what good people of noble (and legitimate) birth do in Westeros.

We cannot look at Daeny’s quest to become Queen of Westeros as some modern politician’s quest to become president or prime minister of a major country. This is not about what Daeny wants: it is about what her culture considers to be “honorable” and “moral.” If Daeny walked away from this quest, then even her enemies would consider her behavior disgraceful. It is the same as the disrespect Jaime gets for killing Aeyrs from the people who were trying to do the same thing themselves.

What Daeny represents is Social Justice Woman. She does have to learn to compromise, and that it is better to (say) get freedom in 7 years with no bloodshed than freedom now with lots of bloodshed. GRRM asked: “What is Aragorn’s tax plan?” And what he means by this is: “how did Aragorn learn to rule?” We are seeing Daeny learn because in Martinverse (unlike Tolkien’s very very Tory universe) wisdom is learned, not innate. The fact that Daeny is making mistakes now is part of the learning curve: judge her by her strategy, not her tactics.

Regarding the Northerners, there is no indication that they will want out of Westeros once the Lannisters are removed from power. After all, it was to the Targaryens that they swore loyalty, not the Baratheons, right? At any rate, they certainly are not going to want to be ruled by Jon at this point: he’s a bastard, a traitor and a deserter. (In comparison, the Boltons are only bastards and traitors! 😀 )

I wasn’t questioning Daeny’s motives or anything – rather, how I felt her story will be aligning itself to conflict with the greater (imo) protagonists of “Martinverse” – Starks (Jon atm). That’d make her slightly edge towards being somewhat of an antagonist (not quite villain) for Jon.

(((Re North – their most recent fealties were to Starks. In opposition to Targs initially under Ned (officially with Baratheon), and then in opposition to Lannisters (officially against Baratheons). The next major successful combined allegiance is again about to happen to Jon. All those currently hostile to Starks currently (Boltons, Karstarks etc) are about to be wiped out/defeated so it’s the rest who I’m referring to.))

I guess it’s my milder version of the theories insisting Daeny will become, as Aerys was, an outright crazy villain. So, instead, I believe she’ll be a bit of an antagonist for a while – really teasing fans for some part of the last 2 seasons as both protagonists face off briefly.

I hope this sorta arc would happen too because, with Ramsay, Cersei & SoH soon going (assumed), who can be the next alpha villain of the show terrorising our fav protagonist – noone really developed enough to be, except NK – but just him would make the overall story one-dimensional. So having a little bit of a Stark-Targ tussle before the end I feel could be intriguing and expected of GoT.

Yeah, who knows! I hope she doesn’t but there is always that possibility that she will in the future!
I can’t wait for the next episode as we will see Sansa, Jon and Davos rallying the Northern lords. I want to see how Sansa will convince them to their side, how Jon will be viewed by the lords and how the North will be reminded!! I’m so hyped for the Northern storyline!

Personally, I have had no significant interest in Tommen as a character. But to argue that his decision was purely stupid (or the result of just plain gullibility) misses the broader political point of what just happened.

Agreed. Tommen’s mistake (and likely downfall) will not come from his misunderstanding of the power of uniting the crown and faith. It will come from misunderstanding his mother’s reaction to it! She, and to a lesser extent his father-uncle and the older Tyrells, do not want their power diluted.

Jon being the son of Rhaegar, the oldest son of Aerys, trumps Dany being Aerys’ daughter. Primogeniture, you know.

But Rhaegar was still married to Ellia at the time – Ellia post-deceases Rhaegar. So Jon would still be a bastard – only a Targaryen bastard rather than a Stark bastard. He could be legitimized, I suppose, but…

GRRM asked: “What is Aragorn’s tax plan?” And what he means by this is: “how did Aragorn learn to rule?” We are seeing Daeny learn because in Martinverse (unlike Tolkien’s very very Tory universe) wisdom is learned, not innate.

It’s a fair point – we are seeing how Dany learns to rule (with lots of mistakes) in a way we never saw Aragorn do in Lord of the Rings. The fact that Aragorn happened to be far older than Dany is does not really explain everything; and even his backstory, if you dig into it (he spent most of his adult years leading the remnant of Dunedain in the North, and also a great captain for the lords of Rohan and Gondor) does not quite supply how he’d manage the vast Reunited Realm of Gondor. But as Martin has noted, that wasn’t the story Tolkien was trying to tell. The story of LOTR was a quest of one hobbit, and Aragorn and his rise to power was strictly secondary to that story. (And while it’s true that rulership is an innate quality to some degree in Tolkien’s world in a way it is not in GRRM’s, it’s also not a foolproof one, as we also learn that not all of Aragorn’s predecessors were successful rulers.)

Whereas politics are front and center to GRRM’s tale, and there are multiple POV characters in away there are not with LOTR. This is the story he wants to tell.

I’ve watched the episode now at least five full times and several more times of certain scenes. Having done that I think it’s an excellent episode. No, it isn’t top five level overall by itself, but within the group of this season it does aid me in agreeing with D&D that as a whole this could be the best season yet. I truly don’t know what people are watching that didn’t enjoy this episode or even called it boring. What? Even the storylines that have been a drag this season were shorter or more interesting – namely, Kings Landing and High Sparrow segments. I won’t entertain comments that say an episode isn’t good simply because their favorite character wasn’t included. There were only a couple scenes that were a bit meh for me (on subsequent views) and unfortunately they were back-to-back; the Frey scene followed by the Jaime & Cersei conversation and grope. That led directly into the Benjen reveal though.

I’ve just noticed something from Bran’s vision, there is wildfire being set off in what looks like subterranean King’s Landing. As we know the mad King didn’t manage to unleash his wildfire on the people, is this a scene which is yet to come?

I think too many people are wrapped up in this antigonist protagonist mindset. I feel like the people who are non compromising will be wiped out in the regions south of the neck. Cercei for example and the High Sparrow. There will be colaterral damage but mainly them. So the more I think about it, when Dany arrives, there will be no opposition down south and I’m inclined to think KL will be ruined like in her visions.

I think the BF will hold RR and more than likely Arya will kill Walder Frey, while Brienne is forced to kill a smug Jaime by a certain vengeful woman or the BF. Breaking the Lannisters army.

In the north the battle lines are clear and Jonsa side will win that one.

So therefore when Dany arrives, she and everyone else will have no time to be worrying about who rules what but how do we not get wiped out by the WW. And it will be clear to everyone that this is the real battle. I’m inclined to think it will be this way especially with them saying it maybe only 13 more episodes

Dazor Ahai:
I’ve just noticed something from Bran’s vision, there is wildfire being set off in what looks like subterranean King’s Landing. As we know the mad King didn’t manage to unleash his wildfire on the people, is this a scene which is yet to come?

One kind of wonders if that doesn’t happen yet this season. I suppose they could think ahead and film such a scene for towards the end of the series, but doesn’t it feel more likely that it’s for the end of this season perhaps?

The thing that people don’t know, is that there have been more than one Targaryan kings who were highly faithful to the 7. The most noteable being Balor Targaryan (Sept of Balor). There have been numerous wars between the faith and the crown with kings who were antagonist to the faith and vica versa. I’m not surprised that they converted Tommen, that usually happen to weak Kings. Easily manipulated. Bad news for Cercei.

George it’s gotta happen in the next two episodes or it won’t happen at all, since the show is basically doing the show version of A Feast for Crows in the Riverlands in the next two episodes…

What do you mean by “it won’t happen at all”, you monstrous blasphemer?!?!? It’s no question of “if”, only of “when” 😉

But judge by yourself:

Did we see the Red Wedding & Catelyn’s death in Bran’s vision? Check.
Did Walder Frey remind us of the Red Wedding & Catelyn’s death? Check.
Has the Brotherhood without Banners been mentioned by Walder Frey? Check.
Are Brienne and Jaime on their way to the Riverlands? Check.
Did Arya tell Lady Crane what a mother whose son was murdered would do? Check.

Dazor Ahai:
I’ve just noticed something from Bran’s vision, there is wildfire being set off in what looks like subterranean King’s Landing. As we know the mad King didn’t manage to unleash his wildfire on the people, is this a scene which is yet to come?

You bet on that! Danerys is not the only Potential Mad Queen Who Likes To Burn People – remember the Rains of Castamere in the last meeting between Jaime, Cersie, Kevan and Olenna?

Yeah. Remember that scene between her and Tywin when Tywin was trying to send her back to Casterly rock? She was talking about each faction would pull at Tommen until they tore him apart….and she said, I would burn our house to the ground before I let that happen. I think his response was how would you do that? The precise situation she was talking about is at hand

You bet on that! Danerys is not the only Potential Mad Queen Who Likes To Burn People – remember the Rains of Castamere in the last meeting between Jaime, Cersie, Kevan and Olenna?

Honestly, I don’t know that Cersei serves any point in the rest of the story and I would not be surprised if she ends up taking herself out, along with everyone else in KL. The only thing giving me pause there is the Valonqar but maybe that’s the reason it wasn’t brought up in the show – because it’s not going to matter.

My gut instinct tells me everyone in KL is going to die at the end of this season. Which is why Varys won’t come back and his aDwD plot final chapter goes to Qyburn and his little birds. We’ve got Tyrion, Varys and Jamie safe, away from KL. I am betting Olenna hightails it out of there next episode. It would be hilarious to me if the second to last scene of the season is Dany triumphantly boarding the Ironborn’s ships with her Khalasar, Unsullied and everyone else, FINALLY heading to Westeros to take the Iron Throne and then the last scene is Cersei burning the whole thing to the ground. 😛

She also told tommen she would burn cities to the ground for him
And she said that about myrcella when she received the threat from dorne

I believe so. Maybe I’m imagining things ?

I believe she’s said it at least four times over the course of the series. Essentially whenever she gets pissed and goes on her little rants about making people pay for doing something or possibility of doing something against her family. It’s kind of been her go-to line.

Dany honestly is a very flawed character. Khal Moro was right. Its her fault she lost her baby and possibly that Drogo died. Her trusting the witch wasnt smart. If not for magic, her being inpervious to fire, and having dragons, she wouldnt be where she is.

I don’t think she understands this. Shes not as smart as she might think she is.

Wimsey: Daeny is one of the primary protagonists.You cannot really do dynamic character development of a person going insane. The only way it would work is if Jon undergoes some parallel onset of insanity: and then it works only if both Jon and Daeny are aware of their onset of dementia, and part of the story becomes how they respond to dealing with that.

It is interesting to say what happens to one must happen to the other and, yes, we’ve had a strong parallel up until now. But the foreshadowing does seem to pushing Dany toward embracing her father while Jon appears to be embracing father Stark more. Having said that though, I never imagined Dany’s story being her coping with the onset of insanity but rather her never believing she is losing her mind and continuing to believe she’s doing what is right. Doing what they think is right is definitely a theme that is shared by both Jon and Dany.

However, you have made me wonder if the foreshadowing of Dany becoming the next mad ruler might be more GRRM trolling. We’ll see.

I wonder how this pans out for Cersei. I feel like she is choosing violence and won’t be punished, but what sort of punishment would she be condemned to? Life in a convent? We’ve never seen that, despite how typical it was for royal women to retire to or just live in convents. I mean it’s Westeros but still.

I also think it’s limiting to suggest that her story must continue to parallel Jons or vice versa. Maybe it will go that way, but maybe they diverge. They aren’t 100% parallel. What has Jon conquered? Dany didn’t die. Etc.

It’s amusing the way people are bending over backwards to claim that Dany is an EXACT parallel to Jon, that she is a total protagonist, and many refuse to see anything negative in her trajectory.

Here’s the bottom line – Dany might be TPTWP but she’s NOT the song of Ice and fire. That is to say, she’s not the balance to Jon, who is both, she’s the balance to the WWs. And yes, that’s why Bran sees her and her dragons so heavily in his visions. But I still think she/the Targs are the other side to the Others and all have to be wiped out eventually.

How can you ignore that the director is basically telling you you’re meant to be a little horrified? It’s not quite Hitler at Nuremberg, but jeez if you can’t see that bringing up Hitler as a comparison is BAD in terms of how someone is whipping up the masses in favor of violence, you’re just not getting it.

No one is saying Dany is evil. But it is NOT a coincidence that the Dany scene, which so many people say doesn’t even FIT, is the bookend for an episode with the Mad King.

Everyone is assuming Dany lands when the Wall falls. I don’t think so. I think Dany WILL come as a conqueror to Westeros. I think she WILL conquer, but it will be short lived, and the long term fate of KL is what she saw.

You might say “oh, she’s not telling her bloodriders to rape and pillage.” She’s bringing an army of DOTHRAKI AND UNSULLIED to conquer Westeros?!?! OF COURSE the people she conquers and not all going to line up and be thrilled. She will kill people, ordinary people, in taking Westeros. She WILL meet resistance, she’s not just going to waltz on over.

The last Targ that people remember is the Mad King. Then she comes back with dragons and savages to reconquer (from the outside perspective) the throne. Are people going to think she’s some benevolent savior?

The point is that rulers might be loved but conquerors are feared. Dany has now been labelled a conqueror. She WILL have a huge part to play in defeating the WWs, but I don’t think it’s so simple. There will be people that even we like as characters that she will harm.

Also, I’m not sure Bran is seeing the future per say. After all, the future can be changed. I think he’s seeing how the wildfire MIGHT work. I think he might actually use Jaime to stop Cersei? Or she’ll burn the sept but not be able to get all KL because Jaime will stop her in time and they’ll find and need the rest of that wildfire for the WW

Hey now. I came up with a perfectly rational and plausible reason for introducing LSH to the story: to cap off Arya’s assassin arc once and for all, with the most difficult decision she ever had to make about giving someone the Gift of Mercy. Neat little package of bittersweetness all tied up in a bow right there. And who better than LSH to show her in no uncertain terms what happens to people who become defined solely by their desire for revenge?

So go ahead and laugh. If my hypothesis turns out right, it’ll be my turn to smirk. : P

Look, the issue is not whether she is mad, but whether she is now motivated out of an all consuming and, frankly, undeserved lust for power. Because I think she now is.

“I will take what is mine with Fire and Blood”.

Really? What if NONE of it is “yours”? We all know she is not Aerys’ true heir. She is a usurper and will be revealed to be one by episode 10 this year. That’s pretty much a guarantee by this point.

But… put that aside. Even if she does have a legitimate claim to the throne, she plans to take the Seven Kingdoms with 150,000 Dothraki rapists.

The Officers of the Night’s Watch killed Jon for allowing 2,000 Wildling warriors south of the Wall. Now Daenerys plans to bring 150,000 of them across the Narrow Sea. She knows what they will do. She knows exactly what they will do.

How is that not an act of evil? Tens of thousands of her people will be slaughtered and raped by these Dothraki and she knows it. She is atop Drogon, who seem to now be the Stallion that Mounts the World and yet she does not care? She revels in it?

Ask yourself a question: Tyrion and Varys know nothing of these plans or her conquest of the Dothraki. Does anybody here think that Tyrion and Varys will support this plan? Does anybody here think that Tyrion will not act to betray Dany to ensure this does not come to pass?

Daenerys might be needed to avert the conquest of the Army of the Dead; but the moment the threat of Night’s King recedes, or if there is a viable fallback plan even if the NK remains? If she has not relinquished the plan to bring all these Dothraki across the Narrow Sea, I think it will be a RACE to see which of Tyrion of Varys betrays her first.

Daenerys will never sit the Iron Throne. She is now the villain of this series.

You are looking at things too specifically. Parallels reflect general similarities in how the characters evolve, no specific deeds. Daeny fought to liberate slaves and have them treated as equals: and this comes after she is sold into marriage to “savages,” which has the effect of making her see a broader spectrum of people as equals. Jon fought to have the Wildlings viewed as humans and to save them from the White Walkers. This comes after he is ordered to join “savages,” which has the effect of making him see a broader spectrum of people as equals.

Moreover, both attempt to find compromises after the Old Guards object to these actions. However, in return for these actions, the “Old Guard” attempts to assassinate both of them. And both are basically reborn from death: Jon literally thanks to Melisandre, and Daeny figuratively.

Think of this as vectors. A vector going from (x,y) -> (3x,3y) and another vector going from (-x,5y) -> (2x,8y) overlap at no particular points: but they are parallel. All of the things above are vectors in the same general directions, but starting and stopping at somewhat different coordinates. The story is in vectors, not the coordinates.

The more I look back on this week’s episode, the more I think that Arya’s interactions with the theatre troupe are the most delicious scenes I’ve seen on GoT in ages. She really could find happiness as an actress, I think, if she can ever get back to a semi-normal life again. She conveys such longing for their creative and fun way of earning their bread, for their cameraderie, the bonded “pack” that a life in the theatre can provide.

Of course, in the episode there was a lot of focus on the jealousy and competitiveness and ego that can go down backstage as well; but Arya cuts right through the crap by pointing out to Lady Crane that she can jolly well write her own lines if the domineering manager of the company is giving her less-than-fabulous dialogue. And just like that, you can see the light go on over the lead actress’ head.

The women in the GoT cast were certainly right early in the season when they said that the spotlight is going to be on women characters becoming more empowered this season; but I’m 100 times more impressed with that low-key ‘Sisterhood is Powerful’ moment between Arya and Lady Crane than I was by the all-girl coup d’etat in Dorne or any fire & blood speechifying from Dany or Sansa trying to out-Baelish Baelish.

Nadia: It’s amusing the way people are bending over backwards to claim that Dany is an EXACT parallel to Jon, that she is a total protagonist, and many refuse to see anything negative in her trajectory.

One is or is not a protagonist: it is not a “fuzzy” state! as for “negative,” I’m not sure what you mean by this: GoT is a character drama, and that means that you get characters, warts-and-all. Daeny has warts: in particular, she is inexperienced. But she is not somehow “getting worse.”

Nadia: OF COURSE the people she conquers and not all going to line up and be thrilled. She will kill people, ordinary people, in taking Westeros. She WILL meet resistance, she’s not just going to waltz on over.

The last Targ that people remember is the Mad King. Then she comes back with dragons and savages to reconquer (from the outside perspective) the throne. Are people going to think she’s some benevolent savior?

At this point, yes. For one thing, there is not going to be much left to resist her. Dorne is going to be on her side. There is a very good chance that the Tyrells will rejoin her thanks to Cersei. The Iron Born will probably be with her. The Stormlanders supporting Stannis are out of the picture at this point. The Northerners are out of the picture.

So, basically, Daeny is not going to be fighting Westeros: she is going to be fighting the remnants of the Lannisters. Tommen probably will be dead by then, already.

You note that people remember the Mad King. Well, yes: remember that the Mad King actually did not do all that much save act crazy, until the onset of Robert’s Rebellion. And the Lannisters have been the best thing for creating fond memories of the Targaryens that Daeny could have wished: the Lannisters have managed to piss off almost everyone, and the kingdom has suffered from several years of civil strife because of them. (In the books,

the peasants and merchants already are recalling the Targaryens fondly after the effects of the Lannister regime; we should not be surprised if lesser nobility are, too.)

Ser Gerold Dayne: Now don’t get me wrong,I do enjoy villains.But my problem at this point is who are the good guys?Jon?Ok,but that’s not enough.

In my view, there are MANY! 🙂
Of those who are alive: Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion (the latter two have their dark sides and are more interesting as a result). Bran, Meera. Sam, Gilly, Edd. Brienne, Pod. Davos. Theon (now reformed). Arya (she was no longer a “good guy” in my book before Blood of my Blood, but she reclaimed her soul again, and I hope is back on track after the detour starting from her Season 4 ending scene). Missandei, Grey Worm. Perhaps Daario! since I have yet to see any villainish behavior from him. So a lot of people who hopefully, will rise up and do what’s needed. Still on the fence about Varys.

And the director knows the truth of what is trying to be conveyed, whether people saw it that way or not doesn’t matter at end of the day, it is what it is.

Yeah, sure, she has dragons and an army ten times the size of anyone else’s. She’s scary. But it’s amusing, in a story where the people currently occupying the throne murder peasants for making jokes about them, are known for killing every last member of an ancient house because the dad wouldn’t pay his taxes, who popular speculation seems convinced are about to burn alive hundreds of thousands of completely innocent people, allied with a house that just invaded the city to kill church leaders because they think they’re above the law, where the people currently in charge of the north are known for skinning people alive and nailing them to crosses, who feed babies to hungry dogs and hunt women for fun when they get bored of raping them, where the people currently in charge of the Riverlands are best known for breaking guest right and slaughtering their own allies, where the people in charge of Dorne just murdered an innocent girl and assassinated their prince and his son because they were too peaceful, where a literal weapon engineered to destroy humanity is currently sweeping through the winterlands and indiscriminately killing every single living thing in its path, that sure, Daenerys is the villain of the story now.

Since we know the show will end with the next (extended) season I rally don’t see much of Daeny’s return and her rallying followers from the various houses – there really isn’t going to be time to do it properly. Plus, it would be a rehash of this season with Sansa doing the exact same thing with the northern houses. Also, Daeny has been told that her people are waiting for her and would welcome her return, but I wonder how much of this is going to be true in the show. None of the Targ nostalgia is in the show as it is with some in the books.

The Faith has been a major player lately, and we know they don’t like magic, or magical beasts, or people who have too much power. This episode shows how much ‘the people’ (at least in KL) are true believers and follow the faith, to which the Maester’s lead. We can infer that other parts of Westeros have similar veins of faithful followers of the Faith. I thought that some of these things might be brought up and/or answers when Sam reached the Citadel, sort of an opposing view to the Red God Priestesses who seem to welcome her return. This is the direction I see it going in the books, opposing religions with opposing Targs (even if one may be fake :)) but there just is no time to explore this and it would all be mute when the WW arrive.

But when Sam took his father’s sword, and left with Gilly and baby Sam I worry that his plans to go to the Citadel have been changed and he will just return to the wall/north. He needs to stay a step ahead of his father and he can’t do that and stay in a well known place, plus it took 7-8 episodes for him to travel home? He will need at least a fraction of that time to make it back to Jon and the fight ahead. Sam visiting the Citadel is one of the ‘book’ plots I’m really interested in, so I was looking forward to those scenes but maybe now we won’t get them?

I think the likely scenario is that she will be convinced to land in the North, maybe even around or near the Iron Islands. Given the Red Priestess presence in Meereen and their ability to ‘know things’, and if indeed Yara and Theon are the ones to help her travel. The WW situation should be in full war mode by then, perhaps even already spilling into the south, and she will join in the true fight her dragons were born for. Not to help her gain the Iron Throne but to defeat the WW. She will probably arrive when she is most needed.

It’s her fault, of course but she feels guilty about that, she knows she was totally wrong. This is why, when she had to kill Khal Drogo, she cried not because she was about to kill him, but because she knew it was her fault. With the masters, she also understood she doesn’t have to kill them and it was a huge mistake. Nevertheless, it seems that she is not ready to accept what happened to Khal Drogo, she tries to hide her weaknesses in front of Jorah, Daario, the others Khal … etc.

She is not as smart as a Tyrion, for example, but she is not an idiot. She succeeded to assemble different peoples and armies by liberating them and using her dragons. Tyrion has words, Dany is a charismatic leader.

Hi long time lurker here,love this website for it is a safe haven for people who just want to discuss ASOIAF and GoT without other posters attacking them all the time. I tend not to post for people like Mihnea, Queen of Thrones, Wimsey,Kay and a few others are much better in conveying into words what i think about various subjects and due to me being dyslectic .
What made me post is Bender quote about Dany and power, now I do believe that what he was trying to say was simply that she was surrounded by blind followers who will do whatever she commands them to. Now true believers can be observed in two settings, especially during the past century, in authoritarian states (and perhaps in some absolute monarchies?) and in various religious settings. So no matter which example Bender used it would have spurred the same reaction.
Now he does also specifically mention that we should be horrified, of course we should for the power she currently bears is tremendous but that doesn’t mean she will use it in an abysmal way, certainly not conducting industrial and systematic genocides for she is not that kind of person. Now if Dany was a sociopath who hold some rather unsettling beliefs and she suddenly came into any sort of power then yes I would be unsettled, but she is not. We’ve already seen her rule and conquer and she certainly wasn’t on that level, true she did made some dubious decisions but even them if examined under the settings under which they were made , they cannot be attributed to madness or to someone who is the embodiment of pure evil .
To make long story short I just think that he is just saying that she has just gained a massive army who is captivated by her and will do whatever she commands without any question or doubt, even if she commands them to perform an action which can be described as suicidal. For in retrospect that was the mentality of those who attended the Nuremberg rallies ,especially during the later stages of WW2. In my opinion she is more like Alexander the Great,who also at some point tried to adopt a semi-divine persona, but unlike him she didn’t have elite tutors to hone her leadership skills, she has to do it the hard way.
PS1 I am unsullied but a rather frequent visitor of the ASOIA wiki so my view is based solely on show material .

Okay
To the people saying that when Daeny says “I will take what is mine” — and then questioning what is hers anyway?…

What about the North/Winterfell? Do you people think that the north is for Rickon, for Sansa, and Bran? I mean, the boltons took the North in a successful manner and it is theirs now. So why is the North theirs, but the Iron Throne isn’t Daeny’s?

Because Roose Bolton stabbed Robb Stark in the back. He was his bannerman and sworn to serve the Starks. The Mad King was defeated after an open declaration of war by Robert Baratheon. The two situations are different, imo.
Ultimately her right to rule the seven kingdoms won’t matter I guess, since she will win it back by force. Nobody in Westeros will be able to stop her, since nobody has as big an army as she has.

I wonder how much of the anti-Daenarys narrative stems from the actress, Emilia Clarke-who IMO is of limited talent, some might even say horrible. Her acting magnifies Daenarys’ worst traits-the entitlement seeping through every dialogue and overly smug expressions all the effing time. That and the repeated nature of all her scenes.

Invoking a sense of sympathy in the viewer is the easiest way to make a character be liked. The moment you portray her as some sort of God incarnate, you run risk of viewers closing up feelings of empathy to said character. And with Daenarys, literally shoved down our throats that she ought to be praised and worshipped, its making people completely turn against her.

Yeah, but it’s still a betrayal by a person sworn to the Starks. Robert Baratheon never betrayed Aerys Targeryen. It was fair conquest. That’s why the audience is more willing to recognise the Stark’s right to the North. Besides, the Stark’s have ruled the North for over 8000 years, where as the Targeryens have ruled for only 300 years. All this matters in public perception, I guess.
Thirdly you could argue that Robb Stark had declared the North to be an independent kingdom before his death. So there would be Northmen who would not even accept the Lannisters’ decree as they do not accept their rule over the North.

Lol so she doesn’t have any claim to the throne but jon does…when it comes to madness of aerys dany is her father’s daughter but to the throne she is not ..OK we can just forget the fact where aerys made viserys his heir and how dany became his heir..

1..its not even funny anymore when people keep saying dothraki will be raping and enslaving wveeyine in westeros..

We have a character who has been opposing rape and enslaving from the start of the series and she was facing the threat of rape and enslaved only two episodes before and suddenly she is going to allow this …

If the dothraki view dany as god and TSWMTW and cross the poison water when she asks them to do .,they will do whatever she asks and never do what she is opposing ..

2.you mean the same varys who arranged the marriage with drogo in the first place so viserys and drogo can March to westeros after dany is dead among the khalasar ..

Let’s see what you have listed ..
1- dialogue which shows entitlement
2- smug expressions all the time
3- repetitve nature of scenes..

All of the above is the fault of how she is written and the material they give her ..so iam blaming more on writers than Emilia .

But I do agree with your second paragraph..
Its been form the start of qarth where they have made her as Viiserys when she is complete opposite of him..

They have removed all her normal scenes where she shows emotions and compassion and self doubts ..and only written her as the one who playing regal Queen and giving big speeches ..

I hate to be the guy who brings this up ..but does anyone see a pattern in Cogman’s episode ..

Oathkeeper., kill the boy and now this ..
Not only his writing of the dany scenes but the way he wrote tyrion questioning jorah about dany claim..
Those does not exist in universe but in thw fan forums.

The Stark kids were torn away from their ancestral home. They weren’t sent off as a baby with mom for their own safety and settled into a new house for 17 years and then just decide when they grew up to go back and fight the current ruler for it just because. Bran and Rickon were powerless when Theon took over and they’ve been essentially homeless ever since (I don’t know about Rickon I heard a theory he had to live with a group of wildlings). As for Arya when their host chopped dad’s head off and mom was nowhere to be found she became an orphan that wanted to get home but well you know the rest. Granted, when I think about it, Sansa no longer had a claim once she left and married a Lannister (she would have been married to the king if she had her way and at that point her home would be Kings Landing period. And it wassince she decided to stay there (rejecting the offer of two men to get her out.) But since she had gone back to Winterfell and married into the family that now rules, it is once again her home, and if hubby get killed somehow hmm then it revert back to Stark, but wait she’s a Bolton now…so if she’s true to Stark name she will hold it until the real heir, if he’s still alive and makes his way back,, claims his rightful place.

I loved this episode. Benjen Stark returned and has answered the question of “who is Coldhands?!”.. i had read somewhere that George RR Martin eliminated the theory that Benjen is Coldhands, so i wonder if this will be different in the books.

I also think the significance of the baby WW in Brans vision is a warning that there is a bigger army of WW than what we have seen. Originally there were six WW which i now believe has reduced to three. But how many baby boys did Craster have/give to the WW and where are they now? They were taking the boys to build an army; there could be dozens or more.

I also love Arya story line and i have also seen a lot of comments suggesting that it was all a waste of time. Not only has she trained to be a badass assassin but she has also learnt how to change identity, what’s to say that she can’t do the same without Jaqen. She ran away from herself because she was tired of all the pain that came with being a Stark, but she has never been able to let go of herself. I think after watching the play she has realised that she doesn’t want to be that person, a murderer. I think she wants to do what she always wanted and kill the people who have wronged her, not innocent people otherwise she is not better than the people that killed her family. Before she set off to the HOBAW she wanted to sail north to her brother Jon, and is probably where she will head to now but i think she might cross a few names off her list on her way. What would be awesome is if she kills Walder Freys wife, takes her face, murders him and then serve him in a pie at their next big event 🙂

Yes starks held north 8000 years and targs ruled the SEVEN kingdoms ( including north ) for 300 years ..which is as equal to holding a kingdom for 8000 years ..
Starks like targs were once new to the land and expanded their region through wars ..
And before someone says they has dragons …starks had wolves and there have wargs too ..

Regarding its a fair conquest …no its a fair rebellion not conquest ..

That does not mean dany should not fight for what is taken from her family ..as a last of her family she needs to do her duty for the once great family ..
Last I checked this story is about families , duties and wars as much its about tits and dragons

If dany didnt have any claim ..then we wouldnt have been seeing Robert and small council afraid of dany or other Lords like dorne greyjoys and varys with his YG all wanting dany ..or people saying that they were happy once when aerys ruled or people drinking to her name as rightful queen ..this all indicate that she is still viewed as rightful queen by many if not all and shows they do acknowledge hwe claim .

Lol how very wrong …iam now intrigued when you read about dany in the forums ans sites .do you tend to read the only negative comments about dany .. I ask this because you mostly say you reas somewhere this and that ..and those will always be something negative..

Ok if you dont do that …i will tell dany’s early life to you ..

So after everyone of hee family is killed even little children like aegon and rhaenys …dany loses her mother when she comes to the world ..ans left only with hee brothee viserys and ser willem

She was forced run away right after the birth because stannis was approaching to take them to Robert ( who wanted all the targs dead )..

See Willem took care of viserys and dany in bravos ( the famous house with red door which dany yearns most ) and once he died ..the servants of house kicked out dany and viserys ..

And since then they were running from cities to cities afraid of Roberts assassins and even the rich and powerful stopped helping them because of their fear of robert..

Viserys was forced to sell his mother’s crown to feed him and dany..they had to beg and live ..
This all drove viserys to madness in the end and dany was abused by the only family she had left ..

The scene you see in series opener at illyrio’s house is where they are leaving for three months because varys and illyrio had a plan to marry her to dothraki so they can make viserys attack westeros with dothraki ..

So if you think that living in a house protected by Willem for four years is way too much time one to be happy then yes sure she did have a very happy life .

I laughed watching the Dany ending and speech. Was that serious or a parody mock sketch of the show? I sincerely think that was the worst scene of the entire series. It was cheesy, and stupid. We just saw all empowered I’m Dany and I will conquer everyone two episodes ago. Great, so she has control of the dragons now. I’m assuming this was the point of the scene. Who cares? Tune in next week for more Dany desert travels, and more I am Dany hear me roar speeches. Thrilling stuff.

If not for magic.,if not for impervious to fire and if not for her dragons ..

Why the need to take away all the thing from what she has ..

Where will be other characters of they didnt have one of the powerful families ,swords ,wolves ,magic blood .,powerful warg .,a giant .,a red witch .,etc etc..
Is she any more different than what other characters get ..

And you are completely wrong if you think she didn’t realise these things ..
When quentyn came to her …she knew he didn’t come for her but for her dragons
Same with xaro and others ..Dragons are where dany’s power come from but they alone doesn’t make dany who she is ..

Arya was able to empathize enough with Cersei that she could correct the poor choice by the playwright. She connected it with her own anger at the death of Ned. To me, that shows she’s rising above “Arya Stark” and being able to see the gameboard and how others would as well. She’s getting to the point that she can act rather than react. And that’s where sparing Lady Crane came from. That’s what Lady Crane was able to teach her.

Cersei is still on Arya Stark’s list. But a girl is a bit more than Arya Stark now.

As long as the realm is at peace with a decent, responsible king/queen for someone to just take over by brute force isn’t right and the common folk in Westeros must know this yet have no choice but to kneel cause what you gonna do?

She has the claim ..that’s been told many times in the books by the people and lords of westeros..

People will talk about technicalties of how starks lost and targs lost ..notice how this technicalities don’t apply to dany and just blame she burns and crucifies ..

But if you just compare what the stark children had gone through dany had gone through much and more ..at least starks children had a family and home for a decade whereas dany does not know what it is to be to have a family and a place to call home.

That’s why iam against all this dany vs starks because if anyone must understand what dnay has gone through it must be the stark kids and dany to know what stark kids went through ..

This is bit different from the quick backstory I have read. Apparently I will have to stop getting bits and pieces on-line and try to keep opinion based on just the show for now. I can’t wait to read the series. I know that when I do I’ll fall in love with more characters than I have on GOT cause there will be so much more depth to them. Obviously I know the show can’t possibly give them that depth or else it would have to be 3 hours long episodes and go into dialogue that is not conducive to TV viewing 🙂

And this again goes back to my complain about dany not giving much to do or explored..

You see this things could have established in a couple dialogues

There is a particular Dialogue in the book where dany tells jorah something like how she was a little thing and how she was alone for a long tome and how viserys would treat her ans how she was powerrless and helpless..
Ans thats waht makes her free slaves because she feels she as the queen with power mist protect those who cant peotect themselves ..

And its frustrating we are not getting scenes like this to show dany as sympatheic ans emotional..instead we only get badass and regal .

All of the above is the fault of how she is written and the material they give her ..so i am blaming more on writers than Emilia .

True, writers carry a fault too but I can’t help but feel the Deanerys hatred would be a bit less had it been someone more talented than Emilia Clarke doing the role. I saw her getting praise for that scene with Jorah last week but I found it was nothing different from her usual ‘Mighty Queen face’ and monotonous voicing. Its like Clarke is incapable of having a normal conversation with any character, every one of her dialogues has to be with ‘Queen face’ on and that’s what is grating.

I mean, she’s not even the Queen yet, merely a pretender which makes it even more ridiculous hearing the absolute authority in her voice. Contrast it to how Lena Headey portrays Cersei or Natalie Dormer portrays Margaery-actual Queens- there’s so much variation in their acting and voice-work.

Quite ironic that its supposed to be the other way, as far as asoiaf goes. There’s no character who is worse than Cersei in possesing the contemptuous and full of themselves attitude but Lena Headey’s brilliant acting never gives off that vibe in the show.

Well I think they need to show us Dany start able to control her dragons and ride them, more than once.Plus these people haven’t seen her dragon – she is the dragon queen for fucks sake

Isnt one of the main things about the show the three dragon heads and three dragon riders?

Secondly they haven’t shown us Dany talking to her Khalassar since they followed her in episode 4. And there was a parallel between her speech and Drogo’s speech to his people. These people don’t like the sea and waters and she had just been talking to daario about heading to Westeros and the fact that she needs ships

Maybe her yelling and all that was cheesy to some – fine – don’t care – but the speech itself and Drogon being involved were necessary in my opinion

Yeah i get what you are saying but again the last episode they made her act like queen again ..
But I disagree with your comments on Emilia …she is not great as Lena for sure but she is good ..just take a look at her scenes with mossodor or with her dragons ..in a lot of scenes she is expressive with her eyes ..you can see the pain in her eyes when she learns about jorah’s betrayal and greyscale..

That’s my complaint she doesn’t get to have normal conversation ..even the last episode they made her give a command not a conversation..

You say she is not even queen yet but look at what scenes she gets …she gets to only hold court and listen to people in season 4 and seaon 5 ..but look at what material cersei or Margery gets ..while dany is all about ruling and hearing people ans nobles …cersei and maegery does have more drama on who gets control over the king and fighting for the power..

At the end of the day I think if only they have managed to make her look more human with many emotions and self doubts and less big speeches and episode ender scenes ..i would assume the backlash would be less than what we get ..

Having said that Mind you 90℅ of normal Watchers love her ..almost all the reaction videos i had seen loved the scene at the end and cheered

Yes, Dany does have a claim. It was her ancestors who conquered Westeros and built the IT. So from Dany’s perspective, she is only claiming what is hers. But if you look at it from an audience perspective, you cannot just say that the Baratheons are at fault or that Dany is at fault. Both sides are right from their own PoV and there is no clear answer. Which is not the case with the Starks as here clearly the Boltons are in the wrong.
I think there are you tube videos on Robert’s rebellion. You should check those out. The back story is very interesting.

Regarding Sam:
Does Sam know Valyrian steel killed a White? Thought there was a scene, if not I’m sure Jon told him. Assuming so, maybe he is taking the sword to the Citadel to do research and figure out what makes it so special. If the Citadel is as big an institution as I imagine I would think they have the ability to protect people or use their political pull to get what they want. Look at Universities in towns in the US, they often time have local political pull and operate withing their own bounds.
Sam can not outrun his father and sending him to the wall just to get another Valyrian steel sword up there seems too trivial. I think he seeks protection at the Citadel and destroys his fathers sword to learn how to make them. Would be great if Sam finds the “cure” while destroying something so deer to his father heart. Its for the greater good but his father is not one to see it that way.

But where they faulted was killing all the rhaegar children and Elia …people may say its tywin who did the act. ..but Robert never cared about them dying like Ned did..

And the reason Robert took the throne because he had targ grandmother ..and that’s why he was so afraod of damy marrying drogo and wanted to kill her …as long as she lives she is a threat to his claim.

If the Targaryens have a claim to the Iron Throne, the last surviving TRUE BORN son of the eldest son of the Mad King, Prince Rhaeghar, has the lawful claim, not Daenerys. She is merely the Aunt of the King, and his presumptive heir until he has children of his own. Dany is a Princess, she is not a Queen. Should she attempt to seize the Iron Throne for herself, she will be a Usurper.

There is no arguing your way out of that. As we will soon find out, the Kingsguard were are the Tower of Joy guarding the last true born son of Rhaegar. They were there, guarding the King, at the command of Rhaegar.

In the alternative, if the Targs were lawfully overthrown, then Dany is still a Usurper.

There is no way out of this argument. If Jon is Rhaegar’s trueborn son, Dany has no right to anything. She’ll be taking what ISN’T hers “with Fire and Blood”. And oh yes, 150,000 rapists unleashed upon her own people to serve her vanity and lust for power.

My prediction: before this series is over, either Tyrion (or possibly even Jorah) is going to kill Dany for the greater good.

As long as the realm is at peace with a decent, responsible king/queen for someone to just take over by brute force isn’t right and the common folk in Westeros must know this yet have no choice but to kneel cause what you gonna do?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Just sayin Which thinking about it might be the HS charge – to be one of the good men doing something. The word ‘good’ of course up to the beholder.

Not really a Dany hater or lover – and I think that our conversation shows just how good she had been as an actor, for we all are seeing facets of her character that we believe in. Will be interesting to see what ends up developing. When I watched it the other night, all I kept seeing was more and more years traveling. Westeros has always been the goal for us, for her. Wondering if that will happen and how within the time we have

Also wondering if someone can convince her that her role is not on the ironthrone, but as a savior to the entire realm, and joins in with the fighters against the white walkers.

umm? Rhaeghar is dead. She doesn’t know about Jon. So yes, it is her rightful claim.

And as we know it, Jon’s a bastard. So no.

But is he? We all think he is but we don’t actually know for sure. Polygamy is pretty common place in this world. Past Targaryens, the Ironborn with their rock wife and salt wives, Craster had many wives, Khals have numerous wives…..so if he loved Lyanna, Rhaegar may well have married her.
If so, Jon is not a bastard at all.

Inga: However, my biggest concern is that Jon and/or his team may side with Littlefinger and that Littlefinger may try to play a kingmaker for Jon when his parentage is revealed. I do admit that Littlefinger may be very handy and that it would be a nice twist with his old rival Varys backing Dany but still I hope that Littlefinger will go in the final episode of this season.

NO. Littlefinger is one of those good guys. An honest businessman, who never did anything wrong (his role in Ned’s execution was equal to Sansa’s, and he was honest about it. He’s also much less “IQ deficient” than she (the “st–d” word seems not allowed here)).

RosanaZugey: Why does no one ever interview Meera’s actor? She is KILLING IT this season. Would love to get her take.

Has GRRM made any comments recently on his thoughts on Season 6 or how good (or bad) the show runners are adapting the TV show to WoW? I appreciate there will be differences and read in this group that he divulged some info to B&W including the fate of Hodor which we all saw last week.

Just seems strange that George seems to be keeping a very low profile recently and to the best of my knowledge hasn’t passed any comments since Season 6 aired?

Perhaps he has? Saw he was at the Balticon conference a few days ago and read another chapter from WoW, but nothing else regarding S6 in his ‘Not a Blog’ ?

Paul: Wouldn’t Snow be her nephew? Therefore not altering her claim at all.

Yes but in Westeros succession is through the male line, except for in Dorne. So Jon would have a greater claim (IFF he was legitimate) as the Mad King’s oldest son’s last surviving son. If he’s not legitimate then I suppose it’d be a War of the Roses-ish situation where people would have justifications for picking either side as both claims are not ironclad.

NO. Littlefinger is one of those good guys. An honest businessman, who never did anything wrong (his role in Ned’s execution was equal to Sansa’s, and he was honest about it. He’s also much less “IQ deficient” than she (the “st–d” word seems not allowed here)).

Ah no. He was the one who started this whole thing by getting Lysa to poison her husband and send that letter to Catelyn. I wouldn’t trust him to tell me if the sky were blue. And how is his scheeming (sp) equal to what Sansa did – tell Cersei that she didn’t want to leave?

Do you think the details matter to this people who are just showing their stupidity in their blind hatred towards dany…

Even if it is revealed that jon is legitiamte …what has he done for the targaryen family ..
Dany has been working for thw targaryen restoration ans doing her duty to her family ..

Even if he ends up legitimate there will always be those who question his legitimacy but the one whose legitimacy can’t be questioned as a true targ is dany ( what’s with her dragons and aegon the conqueror with tits)

The fact that people can’t understand or see how individual perception works and don’t acknowledge dany has a strong claim which is supported acknowledged by both the books and show and characters in universe only shows their bias and hatred

Maybe this people must go to people in westeros who drink in the name of daenerys as the rightful queen and campaign for Jon snow

I can’t be the one one who got a little chill hearing “Jaquen H’gar” declaring Arya’s failed mission as: “A shame, she had many gifts.” A sneaky reference to her as yet undone Kill List?
Do Kindly Jaquen & Punitive Waif represent 2 warring philosophical factions of the FM? Like Arya saving made the entire order indebted to her in some way??
All I know for certain is that it’s a Very Bad Idea to piss off an entire cult of assassins who can change appearance at will.

Halfman: But is he? We all think he is but we don’t actually know for sure. Polygamy is pretty common place in this world. Past Targaryens, the Ironborn with their rock wife and salt wives, Craster had many wives, Khals have numerous wives…..so if he loved Lyanna, Rhaegar may well have married her.
If so, Jon is not a bastard at all.

We already know that he is not a bastard.

The Kingsguard would not have stayed to protect the life of a bastard. Rhaegar was dead. Aerys was dead. But the Kingsguard were still there at the Tower of Joy. Not with 4 yr old Viserys, not with the about-to-be-born Daenerys.

With Jon. If Jon was a bastard, they would have been with Viserys. But they were not. That is NOT an accident.

There is no mystery as to why. GRRM tells us in A Game of Thrones that the Targaryens could marry more than once. That fact sits there like Chekhov’s Gun after GRRM makes it clear in the first novel.

Put it all together and there is no mystery to it at all: Jon is no bastard — he is the King.

The News Reader from Rome would make an excellent Wyman Manderly.
Yes, Dany does have a claim. It was her ancestors who conquered Westeros and built the IT. So from Dany’s perspective, she is only claiming what is hers. But if you look at it from an audience perspective, you cannot just say that the Baratheons are at fault or that Dany is at fault. Both sides are right from their own PoV and there is no clear answer. Which is not the case with the Starks as here clearly the Boltons are in the wrong.
I think there are you tube videos on Robert’s rebellion. You should check those out. The back story is very interesting.

Steel_Wind: Even if she does have a legitimate claim to the throne, she plans to take the Seven Kingdoms with 150,000 Dothraki rapists.

Preach! Nice to read. Thx. Can’t wait to see the Ironborn, Dothraki and UnSullied animal house frat party in Meereen! Should be a grand affair indeed.

Seriously, bringing the Dothraki to Westeros is insane, regardless of the intercultural dynamic or expected seafaring regurgitations. Per Vic’s experience on the page, she’ll lose 50% or more of her navy via the sea storms or onboard squabbles. I’m placing bets that Dany will discard her navy and reach Westeros via her air force and won’t look back.

Like Stannis (in a way), Dany will egotistically want to assume rule of Westeros but her ultimate task will be to defend Westeros from the greater doom, since dragon stuff (fire, steel, obsidian) are damn good weapons when facing the undead and WWs. Bran and Jon probably won’t be able to handle it themselves.

I think Dany is taking on aspects of her mad father, the original Aegon and her brother, Viserys and adapting with good advice from her inner circle (and news from abroad). She’ll also learn from the misadventures of the Blackfyre pretender (book-only) as she moves west. Hopefully, her Fire and Blood mindset expands from its initial focus to something more than an extremely zany repeat of Aegon’s initial conquering.

Now that Jaime has been expelled from the Kingsguard as was Ser Barristan, will Jaime emulate Barristan and seek out Dany or some other opponent to the monarchy? The wheel turns and another respected knight throws his armor to the floor.

When the small council learned that Barristan was with Dany, it remarked who knew Barristan would take his rejection so keenly. Even with that example, the crown fired Jaime anyway. Expecting consequences.

Well, since you put it that way, I can’t help but think that there is a twist in there somewhere down the line, possibly related to WW/CotF/FirstMen/Dragon knowledge contained deep within the weirnet and in Oldtown. How key is Sam’s mission to Bran’s pending standoff?

Yes, yes he is. It’s the only thing that makes sense. I’m guessing the deal with Lyanna was making Ned promise that Rhaegar’s son would be made known and inherit the throne as is his right. But there was no way to do it aside from turning on the man who is like a brother to him, starting another war and possibly getting Jon killed. It’s something to think about, the dual loyalties that must have torn Ned apart inside.

But there’s no way he could honor her wishes without starting his own rebellion. He fought on the side of his nephew’s “usurper” and won. It makes me wonder how did Lyanna think Ned would accomplish this? I guess she wasn’t thinking about all that. A dying woman just wanting to have the peace of knowing her child would have what it deserved. Maybe she just want him to wait until Jon was older and take it from there?

Yes- and more than that, she’s empathising with Cersei for the first time. Her character has been so dead set on revenge from the beginning that it is going to be interesting if she turns out to be someone who could eventually broker peace…

The Kingsguard would not have stayed to protect the life of a bastard. Rhaegar was dead. Aerys was dead. But the Kingsguard were still there at the Tower of Joy. Not with 4 yr old Viserys, not with the about-to-be-born Daenerys.

With Jon. If Jon was a bastard, they would have been with Viserys. But they were not. That is NOT an accident.

There is no mystery as to why. GRRM tells us in A Game of Thrones that the Targaryens could marry more than once. That fact sits there like Chekhov’s Gun after GRRM makes it clear in the first novel.

Put it all together and there is no mystery to it at all: Jon is no bastard — he is the King.

Ah thank you for that. It hadn’t occurred to me to think of it that way. That makes sense to me.
I’ve always felt that it is very likely that it will be revealed eventually that Jon is not a bastard although how evidence of his parentage, let alone any legitimacy, can be relayed so as to be believed by the people of Westeros themselves, I don’t know.
Would even Jon accept he was not Ned’s son, but Rhaegar’s, let alone anyone else?

Unless there’s something written down and buried in the Winterfell crypt with Lyanna or someone living, with the knowledge who would be believed.

Hodors Bastard: there is a twist in there somewhere down the line, possibly related to WW/CotF/FirstMen/Dragon knowledge…

Glad to see you cite FirstMen. Most theories proposed here omit the FM. FirstMen qualities have to factor into the causes, solutions to current problem and fairness to all species of survivors.

The blood of the FM runs strong in the Stark family, the author writes. Something about FirstMen attributes (warging, relating to indigenous peoples such as Dire species, …) is contained in Stark family members and is needed to resolve ASoIaF. As the show is girding its loins to wage final confrontations, it is gathering Starks at the forefront.

I’m talking about the intensity of the fury about being rejected from the KG.Barristan was so steamed about the insult to his honor that he joined the opponents.

Jaime?Inconvenience?What’s one more insult to the Kingslayer?We don’t know yet.

Also, what about the rest of the Kingsguard? I mean Jamie was supposed to be the leader of the Kingsguard, but none of them told Jamie that they were all being fitted with new armor and joining the HS? They all went behind his back, or were ordered not to tell Jamie?, or else Jamie didn’t bother to converse with them or get them help him? Guess he already lost touch with the other KGs, not one felt some obligation to him, at least to warn him? Perhaps they saw Jamie as team Cersei and not team Tommen? Jamie spent almost no time guarding Tommen, or accompanying him to those meetings with the HS. Jamie really dropped the ball with the KG to me, seems like he was never their real leader.