Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:53 pmPosts: 690Location: Between East and West

I don't condone any one making racists remarks, where it be to black, brown, red, yellow, or whites people. What burns me, is the way the blacks and their promotion of music towards the whites of the world. Like calling a women a "white konkie bitch" or smilier racist names. You never (or at least I haven't) hear the white people of this country jump on a band wagon against any black person for doing a racist remark. We (I think) have better sense to start such a tirade.

The "N" word has a connotation that only when white people are the slaves will they finally understand. Oh yes, our turn is coming! Once the "W" word is connoted as demeaning as well, perhaps we'd understand a coloured persons side of things.

Plus, you can't reverse discriminate. The dominant race is not in a position to point fingers, unless it's at those who don't try to end injustices like this in the world!

This dehumanizing of fellow humans must stop, and like all things, it has to start at the top, where we develop this hatred and bigotry. Don't fall for this elitist trap!

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

Check crime .. see what crimes are reported, as in more or less. When this was brought to my attention, I wasn't paying any attention, so didn't know. I was quite surprised in the long run. You might ask .. Does the news report crime fairly? Oh well .. enough said. Check it out for yourself.

_________________You will know you have spoken the truth when you are angrily denounced; and you will know you have spoken both truly and well when you are visited by the thought police.

There's a human tendency, regardless of color, where it's ok for people to degrade themselves, but if someone else degrades them, it's wrong.

For example, someone can stroll through a grocery store for an hour to fill their basket with items. But if they have to wait in line an extra minute because the person in front of them is having an issue, they're rolling their eyes with indignation. Same person.

The first record label rapper 50 Cent approached rejected his content as too obscene. The next label signed him, and made tens of millions of dollars.

It's a tragedy when 30,000 autoworkers are laid off. Yet the product they produce, and that we consume, will be our downfall -- an even larger tragedy, yet the one less recognized. (Michael Moore, The Corporation.)

Out of all the media pollution out there, the Imus/Rutgers case has emerged as a defining moment, a catalyst that may indeed pave the way for an extremely positive revolution in our future; but only if we have an honest conversation now to advance that revolution, with the intention behind the conversation being the recognition and protection of the substantial basis upon which we all can agree: that we must do better, personally and politically, if we are ever to reclaim what was stolen from us before we were born: our opportunity to be free.

There's a human tendency, regardless of color, where it's ok for people to degrade themselves, but if someone else degrades them, it's wrong.

Excellent commentary, GR! This kind of behavior goes on all the time in my area. A friend who was a first grade teacher had a parent tell her during a PTA Open House that she was against corporal punishment in school. Before the teacher could respond, the parent went on to say, "I'll beat the hell out of my kid, but nobody else can touch him, no matter what he's doing."

_________________

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help. That other party, they work for people who don't need help. That's all there is to it."~Harry S. Truman

On another note, TwilightWatcher, founder of the Town Hall forum, and I are in a debate on this issue. I know how time-consuming it can be to post on more than one forum, but for anyone who may be following this issue closely, perhaps too closely , here's the link.

I guess the debate is that with Imus going down, others should go down, which is probably true. But the issue I take with that is it misses the larger point, which the coach of Rutgers made, and which I tried to make above.

Just curious…it’s no secret that Imus was a staunch supporter of the Democrats, their candidates, and their causes. So why would anyone suggest that supporters of the Republicans would be disappointed at Imus being fired? In addition...do you guys really support the decision to fire him, 100%? There were racial, political, and cultural double standards on display for eveyone to see BUT the media just ignored them as they let Imus get eaten alive.

I can understand why they couldn’t resist giving so much air time to the Imus lynching... but why relatively so much less airtime to the Duke Lacrosse story? I have an idea...anyone else?

There's a human tendency, regardless of color, where it's ok for people to degrade themselves, but if someone else degrades them, it's wrong.

For example, someone can stroll through a grocery store for an hour to fill their basket with items. But if they have to wait in line an extra minute because the person in front of them is having an issue, they're rolling their eyes with indignation. Same person.

The first record label rapper 50 Cent approached rejected his content as too obscene. The next label signed him, and made tens of millions of dollars.

It's a tragedy when 30,000 autoworkers are laid off. Yet the product they produce, and that we consume, will be our downfall -- an even larger tragedy, yet the one less recognized. (Michael Moore, The Corporation.)

Out of all the media pollution out there, the Imus/Rutgers case has emerged as a defining moment, a catalyst that may indeed pave the way for an extremely positive revolution in our future; but only if we have an honest conversation now to advance that revolution, with the intention behind the conversation being the recognition and protection of the substantial basis upon which we all can agree: that we must do better, personally and politically, if we are ever to reclaim what was stolen from us before we were born: our opportunity to be free.

Where were NBC - CBS - ABC -CNN -FOX- prior to the 2000 Presidential elections? Where was the integrity and truthful coverage voters needed to cast an intelligent vote for the election of the best possible candidate for the highest office in our country??? Take a good look at what was put in office and you will have your answer. ( I said put in office - not meaning voted in because I don't believe there are more completely stupid people than half intelligent people.)

In my opinion - if Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are examples of Christianity, then I believe their followers are in deep trouble. My Lord says there will be many false prophets and many souls led astray.

There are niggardly people in all (red - yellow - black and white) races. No exceptions.

I don't care what color your skin is - show me respect and I will reciprocate in kind. Step on my toes, don't be surprised if I kick your donkey.

I never owned a slave and none of the present day citizens are slaves. (Sorry, I'm lying - all of us today are slaves - we are told to work for a living - told how much we can earn - how much we can spend - how much we must give to our elite government, so they can live in luxuary - how we have to support ourselves - the rich - the poor - and every citizen in every country in the world.)

Again, I must apologize for my ignorance - this is Democracy - right?

Red, Yellow, Black or white has the opportunity to become anything they are willing to work for. They are the Captains of their destiny. Looking around and seeing so many suceeding at the expense of our labor is sometimes a bitter pill to swallow but again thats Democracy.

If changes need to be made - how can it be accomplished? Is one race attacking another a solution or part of the problem? Everyone needs to stop asking for a free ride. Kick your donkey into forward gear and go to work for what you want. You have only yourself to blame for your success or failure.

Why wasen't Alex Haley's, Roots censored? I am not a white cracker and I do not smell like a wet chicken. I do stink if I don't bathe.

What would happen if white people asked for donations to operate an all white college? Shudder - shudder.

But blacks ask all the time, for money to fund their black college. Where's the outcry

Do whites not feel outrage or are we afraid we may hurt some feelings?

I am for free speech and freedom of the press. I am sorry there are exceptions to every rule. Thank goodness we don't all think alike, act alike or dress alike. If that were the case, it sure would be a boring existance.

When you speak, it will be my choice to listen or not. Just don't try to tell me I must listen, because I am an over the hill stubborne old coot who speaks her mind also.

Sorry so long - But I feel better pointing out a few opionions of my own, right or wrong.

Imus proved that there is a dark underside to us that carries these problems from our earlier evolutions, that we can't let go of. It's like saying-"Well that's just the way it is and it's just the way I am." Limiting possibilities is a major problem in our development.

The past is just a nostalgic reminder of how easily we were deceived. We look back on these times as honest and truthful because we didn't have all the information to challenge what they programmed us with. Information was fed to the people and never researched for factuality. Thank the universe for the Web and the instant information we have based in facts and statistics. "Opinion" means you don't want to do the required work to develop a critical viewpoint- widen your lens so to speak.

Try this site to find some real info. They even have a forum where you could take your opinions and discuss them, if you feel certain about what you say. Personally I'm tired of our ancestors telling us what we have to believe based on opinions. War is an opinion, and I'm tired of that too. Just saying it's fact, negates the possibility that we could rise above it. We have to eliminate impossibilities we've been fed to believe.

2. Being Black, Living in The Red (external link) Abstract: Being Black, Living in the Red demonstrates that many differences between blacks and whites stem not from race but from economic inequalities that have accumulated over the course of American history. Property ownership--as measured by net worth--reflects this legacy of economic oppression. The racial discrepancy in wealth holdings leads to advantages for whites in the form of better schools, more desirable residences, higher wages, and more opportunities to save, invest, and thereby further their economic advantages.Resource Type: Book

3. Black Wealth/White Wealth: A New perspective on racial inequality (external link) Abstract: The award-winning Black Wealth/White Wealth offers a powerful portrait of racial inequality based on an analysis of private wealth. Melvin Oliver and Thomas Shapiro analyze wealth--total assets and debts rather than income alone--to uncover deep and persistent racial inequality in America, and they show how public policies fail to redress the problem. Compelling and informative, Black Wealth/White Wealth is pioneering research. It is a powerful counterpoint to arguments against affirmative action and a direct challenge to our present social welfare policies. Resource Type: Book

5. Cheaters Monopoly (internal link) Abstract: A satirical article that discusses how the game of Monopoly could be recreated with new rules based on oppression of people of color and Native Americans by white people.Resource Type: Article

7. Data on Income Growth from Government Tax Return Records (internal link) -Abstract: This document contains a dozen different charts that look at income growth in the US over the past century, as well as current income levels and percentiles. It also looks at who (the wealthy) have benefited the most from recent tax cuts.Resource Type: Chart

8. Doubly Divided: The Racial Wealth Gap (external link) Abstract: African Americans and other minorities hold far less wealth than whites. But why should the wealth gap be so large, greater even than the racial income gap? It turns out that government has played a central role. Throughout U.S. history, countless specific laws, policies, rules, and court decisions have made it more difficult for nonwhites to build wealth, and transferred wealth they did own to whites.Resource Type: Article

10. How Class Works: An Interactive Exploration (external link) Abstract: From the NY Times' "Class Matters" section, this interactive, multimedia website is divided into four very user-friendly topics: Components of Class, How Class Breaks Down, Income Mobility, and A Nationwide Poll.Resource Type: Website

18. The Color of Wealth: The Story Behind the Racial Wealth Divide (external link) Abstract: Why does the median family of color have less than a dime for every white dollar? The Color of Wealth exposes how people of color have been barred from government wealth-building programs benefiting white Americans. This uniquely multicultural economic history covers the asset-building stories of Native Americans, Latinos, African Americans, Asian Americans, and European Americans.Resource Type: Book

19. The Growing Divide: Inequality and the Roots of Economic Insecurity (external link) Abstract: This curriculum is useful to help students understand the growing gaps between people in the US along income lines, examining both the causes and consquences of this problem.Resource Type: Curriculum

23. Ultimate Field Guide to the U.S. Economy: A Compact and Irreverent Guide to Economic Life in America (external link) Resource Type: Book

24. United for a Fair Economy (external link) Abstract: UFE raises awareness that concentrated wealth and power undermine the economy, corrupt democracy, deepen the racial divide, and tear communities apart. The website contains reports, fact sheets, cartoons, games, and a library on information on economic and racial inequities in our society.Resource Type: Website

25. Washing Away the Veil: Katrina and the Racial Wealth Divide (external link) Abstract: Explores the racial wealth divide that is so prevalant in our country, which isn't new, but was at least brought back into public discourse by Hurricane Katrina.Resource Type: Article

Here's some facts from the Katrina article-

Quote:

Long before Katrina, racial wealth/income inequality undermined the quality of lives of African-Americans in Louisiana. For like the rest of the country, Louisiana is plagued by the deepening racial economic divide. In Louisiana, the average income for African-Americans is $21,461, while that of whites is $40,049. While African-Americans comprise 31.5% of the population in Louisiana, 69% of the children in poverty are African-Americans. Additionally, compared to white women, African-American women are twice as likely not to have health care. It is no surprise, then, that the majority of those left behind to face Hurricane Katrina were African-Americans, Mexicans, Hondurans, and other people of color. The class position of these people is intertwined with race. In Louisiana, the state with the second highest rates on inequality in the country, it is clear that race (and class) matters.

But if you think that racial economic inequality is peculiar to the south, think again. It is the norm nationwide. By the standard (and limited) measure of income, racial inequality is readily apparent. The typical African-American family makes 59 cents for every dollar earned by the typical white household. The wealth divide is even greater. In 2001, the median household net worth of the typical white family was $121,000, while for the typical African-American family it is $19,000. This means that Blacks have less than 16 cents for every dollar of assets held by a typical white household. In other words, there is a $102, 000 dollars net worth penalty for being Black.

Hurricane Katrina made the burden of this penalty immediately accessible. The veil was washed away. The folks of color in New Orleans, Biloxi, Mobile, etc. who had no savings accounts, no insured homes, no other sources of income besides a low paying job, and no health or retirement security suffered from the combined forces of malignant government neglect, systematic corporate plunder, and deeply rooted racial wealth and income inequality. By revealing all of these factors, Hurricane Katrina is forcing the society to grapple with the cost of being poor, a person of color, and/or an immigrant. Critically, Hurricane Katrina rendered particularly visible—the cost of being asset poor and Black.

Yet, the mantra—race does not matter—is repeated. Many whites are rejecting race as a factor in inequality and in the government’s response to Hurricane Katrina. According to the most recent Pew poll, while 71% of African-Americans think that racial inequality is still an issue, only 32% of whites share those sentiments. And while 66% of African-Americans believed that government response would have been faster if the victims had been white, only 17% of whites agreed. Why is this? One part of the explanation is the widespread belief in the mythology of a colorblind society. Another part of the explanation is the growing economic insecurity faced by most whites. Stuck in the logic of “zero-sum game” thinking (and racist thinking as well), many whites believe that any benefits to other people come at their expense. The unstated belief is that whites are the most important race, and they are entitled to get theirs before people of other races get any. Therefore, they remain resistant to measures to remedy racial wealth inequality.

But it need not be a zero-sum game. Most whites are not doing well in this economy. Household income has been decreasing since 2001. Wages have been stagnating. Jobs are harder to find, often pay low wages, and tend to provide minimal benefits. In this “jobless recovery,” Black unemployment rose from 7% in 2001 to 9.6% in August 2005, but white unemployment also rose, from 2.75% to 4.2%. As if economic insecurity was not already too great, the Bush Administration is attempting to privatize social security and increase pension insecurity. They also want to end the estate tax for the benefits of the super-rich at the expense of hard working people. Consequently, whites, like everyone else, are feeling the squeeze of anti-people and pro-corporation economic policies.

Finding scapegoats is not the answer. People of color are not the beneficiaries of the growing wealth/income inequality. Along with many white people who have limited incomes and wealth, they are being pushed into greater economic insecurity. In fact, people of other races are even further disadvantaged, since they continue to face barriers to wealth accumulation that compound historical disadvantages, which render them most vulnerable in times of crises. This is one of the crucial lessons that we should take from Hurricane Katrina.

There's a lot more to this issue than just name calling. Imus showed that theres an underlying acceptance of right to be mildly racist and bigoted and that is still acceptable. The message gets out and social animators, like him,, and so are usefuland used regularily to stir up foment within the masses. Worked in Germany and it's working in Iraq as well too!

Somehow we let people legitimize this dehumanizing as normal without questioning people for why they do it. It's up to whites to correct whites since they don't seem to want to stop it. Blame shiftig is no excuse, and unlike the Indians you can't just kill everyone off and claim their land. You invited them into your country, or took their land from them and expect them to sit back and take it? I'd like to see what any white person would be like if the roles were reversed.

Again, this comes from the top down. When I was young and growing up, I knew nothing about race difference or religious difference. I was introduced to it. It was not inherited. It came down from parents or authority figures and was transmitted by peers. It's called a "social construct". Religion, patriarchy, politics, power- all social constructs that evolve and perfect themselves until they make perfect idealized sense. Racism and bigotry have this purpose as well.

Human nature is a funny thing- how it operates-andwhere it comes from- it allows us to divide based on difference of appearance and beliefs. Since most things that are subtle and intended come from a place of wealth, I must assume you enjoy protecting the wealth and privilege that whites obviously enjoy. Perhaps you are just another unwitting patsy of their intentions, believing that since it makes sense it must be accurate, but I noticed you apologized for your words on several occasions, yet have no problem feeling someone is getting a free ride. Again, this is a common lament for those who don't want solutions- especially if it means someone gets something for free that they think they have to pay to their disadvantage, while they have all the cards in the deck. Cheaters Monopoly perhaps?.

I hope that this information might help you to understand that this problem is much more serious and common- to varying degrees. As historical accounts prove, it is a common trait we have used to divide and not bring us together. That it is the rich mans game and has no place in our world any longer is obvious. Any christian can surely see that.

_________________Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

My niece and I are no longer on speaking terms. She, always with her hand out to grab anything she could reach as long as she didn't have to pay for it, started sending me emails dissing blacks. I told her to cease and desist, but she insisted she knew it all.

I finally told her if she couldn't be the Christian she claimed to be, to not contact me at all.

Never heard from her again.

People love to hate, and who do they target? Not people with more than they have, it is people who have less--often nothing.

According to a Pentagon spokesman, the new undersecretary of defense for intelligence, James Clapper, found "disappointing results" during a review of the TALON database.

Clapper "has assessed the results of the TALON program and does not believe they merit continuing the program as currently constituted, particularly in light of its image in Congress and the media," Ryder said.

The Pentagon acknowledged last year that part of the information collected in the database "either should have been purged, or was data that was not appropriate for reporting in that system."

The TALON program began in 2003 to track suspects with possible links to terrorists as part of the post-9/11 "war on terror."

But information leaked to news reporters revealed that the Pentagon was collecting information on peace activists and monitoring antiwar protests across the country.

We do have to be careful whom we suspect--just as the Pentagon 'supects' peace activists as being terrorists. We, the people, must learn to be open in our judgement of others.

Will prejudice help us as individuals anymore than the TALON program helps fight terrorism? Spying on and harassing people who's sole drive is for peace certainly does not make America a better country. It just makes us a more aggressive one.

Determining the value of another human by prejudical means does not make our own lives better, it only makes others lives even more difficult.

I, like you, wish there were equal opportunities for all, but I don't believe that will happen until humans really believe they can make opportunities happen. For a major change to take place, it must start in the home. Since we all come from different homes where different moral lessons are taught by the parents, we can't expect too much.

I agree, we have more in common than differences. When parents instill pride and confindence in our young and encourage them to be constructively independent and work for what they want and stop trying to recapture our youth through them, then change may come about.

I raised five children - same morals - values and same rules (except when circumstance called for different measures). I've had some embarrassing moments for my child and many proud moments. Yet, I supplied society with five different personalties. Hard to believe - but true.

Yes, indeed there is a dark underside in all of us. It's up to each individual, in the way it is expressed and exposed. A true sign or lack of maturity in all of us.

If we allow ourselves to be deceived by anyone, then we have a problem. If we are not capable of digesting and dissecting any form of research, except the parts that run concurrent with our way of thinking - then the true value of any and all research is of no value and a waste of time. Moral: A lack of ability to think for ourselves and a complete lack of common sense.

I will not defend nor condem society, Imus or anyone else who feels they must insult or demean anyone. I do believe there are a lot of playground bullies who get their jollies and feel big if they can hurt anyone's feelings. I do believe in freedom of speech for each and all. If anyone chooses to make an donkey of themselves, the problem is theirs. I do not want the Government telling me what I can or cannot say, think or feel. Even if I disagree, I will not stand in judgement or try to convince them my way is best. I will not try to inflick harm in any way. Pity them - yes - for ignorance.

Your research posts of the vast distribution of wealth are good and many are very worthwhile and proves your points. I am very opinionated in my personal views. Research is fine, but in the final analysis the information is basically inundated with a lot of the authors opinions. Never at any time is a whole and complete unbiased story revealed. They want you taking their sides in the issue.

The way and means the wealthiest people attained their wealth could very well change the structure of the research. The pity is the ones who make all the money never live long enough to compensate for all the harm and misery they may have caused in their greedy claim to fortunes. (If they care to make amends that is) The way their heirs were raised depends on how the inheritance is used or abused. Look around, there are several ignorant wealthy bums. If they get everything we have will that really be enough for them? Think about it.

If we are able to teach our children to be true to themselves, respect everyone and everyone property, set goals and work in a respectible fashion to reach their goals, then our future leaders (our children) will be the winners and so will we.

Bottom line: How much money and material goods do we really need? Is even a penny earned at the expense in a harmful way of anyone worth the price?

Here is one major example of many important black individuals who accomplished outstanding feats when it was virtually impossible for a black to be given any recognition for anything.

George Washington Carver b:(approx)1860 in Diamond Grove, Missouri d:Jan. 5,1943 - attended- Iowa State University, earned a Bachelor's degree in 1894 - a Master's degree in 1896. He created 325 products from the legume that has and is still benefitting all of mankind. He worked w/ peanuts, sweetpotatoes, soybeans and pecans among other plants. He was an accomplished artist - displaying his paintings at the 1893 Chicago World's Fair.

Just how was this mans success possible? I wonder if it was his slave parents who instilled the desire for him to succeed that motivated him? We will never know where his inspiration came from because whole stories are never told or recorded for prosperity. Everyone should be proud of their history and a lot of others should be ashamed to be screaming discrimination. Why - for what purpose??

The Indians are the only people in America today that have been totally discriminated against. The white man took everything from them - EVERYTHING. They had no homeland to return to. All this was theirs to begin with. The big oil conglomerates are still skinning them because the reservations they were herded to is very rich in oil. How would you feel if a big oil company filled a big taker truck with your oil and sent you a check for two cents? Just where is all this American oil going? Into Texas, perhaps to the Bush refineries and out to BP?!! Is that one reason the Bush's and Tony Blair are so chummy with each other? Have you ever done any research on this? Very interesting. I guess we all have ax's to grind. No one person is more important or for that matter no one race is more important than anyone or any race above another.

This is a very long post and I will shut up for now, but I will be back with my opinions concerning discrimination, which every working female has and are still being discriminated against. We do know and feel the pain of
discrimination. It's part of our existance but we handle it very well and have learned to cope with it.