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SOE is working on "EQ Next", Blizzard working on "Titan" and then you have Funcom and Trion doing some great work I think we will have plenty off MMO to come.

I don't call a singleplayer game with a monthly fee and a carbon copy WoW clone being "great work". And all the games you mentioned cater to ONE type of gamer, the themepark, singleplayer centric, casual gamer. Nothing for core MMORPG gamers or sandbox fans, really?

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Originally posted by OzivoisSOE is working on "EQ Next", Blizzard working on "Titan" and then you have Funcom and Trion doing some great work I think we will have plenty off MMO to come.

I don't call a singleplayer game with a monthly fee and a carbon copy WoW clone being "great work". And all the games you mentioned cater to ONE type of gamer, the themepark, singleplayer centric, casual gamer. Nothing for core MMORPG gamers or sandbox fans, really?

Is "core" the same thing as, "small, vocal group of players who haven't bought any new MMORPG in about 6 years"? I think to be a core MMORPG player, you have to actually be playing MMORPG and even paying for at least one.

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SOE is working on "EQ Next", Blizzard working on "Titan" and then you have Funcom and Trion doing some great work I think we will have plenty off MMO to come.

I don't call a singleplayer game with a monthly fee and a carbon copy WoW clone being "great work". And all the games you mentioned cater to ONE type of gamer, the themepark, singleplayer centric, casual gamer. Nothing for core MMORPG gamers or sandbox fans, really?

Oh Please, you guys have plenty. Look at all the FFA Forum PvP you have at your disposal with no cost. Internet Forums are your MMO. Think of it like a massive browser text based game.

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Originally posted by smh_alotLol, someone used the 'true Scotsman' fallacy. Heh, had to happen some time, I guess.

'Yeah, but those millions of MMORPG gamers that have been playing MMO's for the past years and that are having fun while I haven't been playing or having fun, aren't CORE MMO gamers'

They estupidos and some kind of commie sympathizers, too..supporting these lame product, they are the enemy!

Sounds kind of like what you'd hear on the floor of the opposing party's political convention...the arguments are similiar too.

Meanwhile, back to that game I'm enjoying.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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My though and opinion which probably does not matter but I say it anyway.

I don’t think he is far off the mark. Most big companies are looking to make fast turnover now that the big winner has not been dethroned. They are starting to see the light and not spend a four to five year development cost to make a 1 to 2 month profit then have to turn around to support it at a loss. They are seeing a new untapped frontier that has a much higher turn around with a much lower investment and team size.

Even the indie developers are starting to see the light. Many of the old MMO sites and MMO game engine developer sites are dead. MMO based boards are closing. Just look at developers corner here on this site. It use to be rather active. Many of the guys and gals that use to post there are gone. They don’t even post in general anymore. Not very many new gaming sites are sprouting up and older developer sites have a venomous hatred toward MMO design game discussion.

It has been a clear message by the game community that high end graphics, bug free programming and lots and more of lots of content are MUST on release so many won’t chance investment in anyone outside of KNOWN circle of developers, who are beginning to cringe at the words Massively Multiplayer Online.

Sadly, the few indies left are making small worlds with little content to maybe inspire a following but yet they are missing the mark and making games that copy in one form or another what already exist and have much greater content anyway so the chance of success is very very slim.

Bottom line is that one has to be a bit eccentric to even consider a MMO now days when iPhone and iPad games can be made fast and actually make money.

Maybe the future will bring in a new genre of games but they probably be from the eastern parts of the world where MMOS are thriving.

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SOE is working on "EQ Next", Blizzard working on "Titan" and then you have Funcom and Trion doing some great work I think we will have plenty off MMO to come.

I don't call a singleplayer game with a monthly fee and a carbon copy WoW clone being "great work". And all the games you mentioned cater to ONE type of gamer, the themepark, singleplayer centric, casual gamer. Nothing for core MMORPG gamers or sandbox fans, really?

What do you mean by "core MMORPG gamers"? Plus you have no idea what EQN or Titan will be like, I agree on the other two however.

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Originally posted by OzivoisSOE is working on "EQ Next", Blizzard working on "Titan" and then you have Funcom and Trion doing some great work I think we will have plenty off MMO to come.

I don't call a singleplayer game with a monthly fee and a carbon copy WoW clone being "great work". And all the games you mentioned cater to ONE type of gamer, the themepark, singleplayer centric, casual gamer. Nothing for core MMORPG gamers or sandbox fans, really?

Is "core" the same thing as, "small, vocal group of players who haven't bought any new MMORPG in about 6 years"? I think to be a core MMORPG player, you have to actually be playing MMORPG and even paying for at least one.

^This made me laugh hard :). I think the biggest issue is that there is no commitment anymore from players to stick with game when it has some flaws. Players are impatient. Long time ago... players were commited to one game no matter if it had bugs. Now they jump like butterflies. That does not make it promissing for a future of the gentre.

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Meh, it is what it is. I'm over the pipe dream of an MMO built on persistence, community, living worlds and interesting things to do other than KILLKILLKILL. I'll play GW2 until I'm tired of WvW and give up on the genre for another 3-4 years until WoD and ArcheAge are on the shelves and give those a try. No sense on dwelling on the things I can't control.

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People kept to titles "back then" because there were few choices. Now those games are "old" or have changed and the new ones don't have a design conducive with what we had seen "back then". Likely though this was due to the players making up for the lack of technology the new games have and now the slider is on the other side social wise.

At least that's the way I see it. Solution? Give us gamers that don't want everything scripted and fully crafted by hand a big open world with a lot of tools to play with. You can go back to burning down carbon copy themeparks one after another. Lol, I kid but I do think a change is on the wind. For the better of everyone.

Oh and WoW is the exeption, not the rule. Take that one game out of the picture and standard themeparks look pretty dismal.

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Originally posted by PresbytierI have never met a community of gamers more morbidly obsessed with an unfounded belief in their own demise than MMORPG players. I mean seriously I don't get the general doom and gloom MMORPG players posses; sometimes that alon makes me want to quit playing MMORPGs.

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Are you sure? I mean, the forum's overall theme seems to consist entirely of dwelling on the past.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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Originally posted by lizardbones

Is "core" the same thing as, "small, vocal group of players who haven't bought any new MMORPG in about 6 years"? I think to be a core MMORPG player, you have to actually be playing MMORPG and even paying for at least one.

I haven't bought any new MMORPG in about 6 years. Can't quite recall what the last one was: AoC or LoTRO. Anyway, I no longer consider myself an active MMORPG player, but I do retain a passing interest in the genre. I don't believe that I represent a particularly vocal and negative sub-group. It's quite clear to me that those who moan most loudly about the latest AAA flop are those who have actually bought/subscribed to the game and who - by your definition - can consider themselves to be "core" players.

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Originally posted by OzivoisSOE is working on "EQ Next", Blizzard working on "Titan" and then you have Funcom and Trion doing some great work I think we will have plenty off MMO to come.

I don't call a singleplayer game with a monthly fee and a carbon copy WoW clone being "great work". And all the games you mentioned cater to ONE type of gamer, the themepark, singleplayer centric, casual gamer. Nothing for core MMORPG gamers or sandbox fans, really?

Is "core" the same thing as, "small, vocal group of players who haven't bought any new MMORPG in about 6 years"? I think to be a core MMORPG player, you have to actually be playing MMORPG and even paying for at least one.

Core is the same as, the couple million original MMORPG gamers that allowed this genre to even exist. You know, the games that the genre was named after? Not the shared online RPGs like SWTOR, but actual MMORPGs.

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Ah yes, the interesting 'only the MMO's I like to play are actual MMO's' approach. Haven't seen that one before. I mean, heaven forbid that there might exist MMO's that someone doesn't like the style of design of, but that are still MMO's. That's such a weird, far out concept! >.>

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Originally posted by DavisFlight

Project Gorgon is on kickstarter now and the guy running it is being VERY transparent about his game ideas. It seems it'll be a good old fashioned dungeon explorer type game with legit death penalties.

I want to second this recommendation. Project Gorgon is the most interesting MMO in development right now and it is pure Indie. What other MMO offers the promise of having to deal with both the good and bad of lycanthropy? In PG it takes two real-time months (two full moons) to become fully infected with lycanthropy. On that second full moon your turn into a wolf and you're stuck in wolf-form for three days (until the gibbous moon). Up-side you can learn wolf combat skills, downside no chatting, no NPC interaction, and no item utilization. The main problem with PG? The art and animation are sub sub-par so it is on kickstarter right now for art & animation.

Other major pluses: Shared world - no instanced dungeons a mix of classless skills and class-like permanent choices (e.g. such as the werewolf option).

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The reason for recent WoW-type clones is simple: they make money... or at least had been, now not quite so much.

The amazing thing is that people want a risky game design (non-WoW), want it massive, with shiny graphics, lots to do.. and expect it to be Free to Play.

The math just doesn't add up. You can't make the awesome game everyone wants and then give it away or let people play for free.

Many people seem to forget that Guild Wars 2 opened up pre-SALE almost 6 months before release. They had people purchasing the actual real game 6 months before you could play it live (you got into the beta) and they got the cash up front. How much of the money for the finished product went towards making the game while it was still being made? We'll probably never know.

It's not sustainable in the future, you can't do massive games for free. Something has to change.. games are going to be smaller or less quality or more niche related.

I don't think we'll ever see another massive success MMO. The amount of money needed won't be risked by a publisher and developers aren't going to work for less money or free (in most cases).

My conclusion is that the only real change will come from Indie developers who are willing to risk money themselves to organically grow a player base on a good idea. They'll have to start small and fight for each customer (like EVE did).

It also partially comes back to the jaded MMO community (rightfully so) who hear the same promises for every game and nobody ever delivers them. With the amount of doubt in most of the playerbase of any actual change happening, someone is going to have to prove things CAN change.

As soon as the first million subscriber sandbox/sandpark game launches you'll see more major publishers willing to open their wallets for a piece of that pie.

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I think MMORPGs in general, even including the Asian ports to western market, are either in a period of population contraction AND / OR in a period where excess competition has lowered profitability of individual games.

Hardware has made a huge jump in 10 years. With that jump came in increase in production costs because "big" games went from 3 gigs of artwork to 30. Also stressing production costs is that content went from "go out in the woods and grind boars" to "quest driven storyline with voiced and animated cut-scenes". The combination of more artwork and more content just puts all the more pressure to monetize a release in an already competitive environment.

Is the twilight coming? Frankly I think it is already here. At very least there seems to be a plateau.

Will it be bad for MMORPGs? Maybe not. There's still plenty of opportunity for games that can draw a playerbase and monetize effectively. I think GW2 is close to this with the B2P strategy.

I do expect there will be more casualties among subscription games. SWTOR, TSW and TERA are ones that I think will be forced to adapt. Others just seem to linger on, DAOC comes to mind as an example, but I'm sure there are many.