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Topic: MMM-Approved Cities (Read 12126 times)

I'm a new reader to this blog, and it has really opened my eyes to what I want out of my life and what I value. More specifically, I've been really thinking about moving within the next couple of years to a different city where I can live a more Mustachian-friendly lifestyle.

Some background: I'm 23 and live in DC, and have lived in this area my whole life. There's lots to love about DC - tons of events, smart and diverse population, not over-crowded, etc. However, I've started thinking that the cost of living might be unsustainable for the long-term (for instance - currently paying $1475/month for a studio apartment. It's insane). Additionally, I've slowly grown tired of the completely job-centric mindset of this city. People are so focused on what you do for a living, networking, and who you know. I'd love to move somewhere with a more relaxed attitude and where most people don't think being a workaholic is a good thing.

So I'm wondering if any of you awesome people have suggestions for other cities to consider. Some things I'm looking for:

Low COL compared to DC (aka not SF or NYC)

Lots to do - concerts, author talks, free events, etc.

Urban or a small city - not remote

Liberal and educated population

Warm weather/minimal snow (or at least not colder than DC)

Accessible public transportation/not car dependent

Laidback attitude

*Note - I work in an industry that can be done pretty much anywhere, so that's not a huge concern.

I'd look at urban/university areas in the Midwest. The Midwest is generally lower COL than either of the coasts, and university cities/towns offer size, skew liberal, and often do the kinds of events you're looking for.

However, in doing so you're going to be sacrificing the public transit aspect (unless you go to Texas... any Austin people here who can speak up?)

I live in Chicago, which has everything except low COL and warm weather (but man, May-September are GLORIOUS). I know people in Little Rock and Fayetteville, AR, who are fairly liberal leaning and get around on bikes. I hear great things about Savannah, GA, and Huntsville, AL, but I have no idea about COL.

I lived in Portland, OR, for six years and loved it. I think it meets all of your criteria as well.

Low COL compared to DC (aka not SF or NYC)

- Portland's not as cheap as the midwest, but definitely less expensive than DC.

Lots to do - concerts, author talks, free events, etc.

- Sooo much to do indoors and out. Their great concerts are one of the things I miss most.

Urban or a small city - not remote

- Urban, check.

Liberal and educated population

- Very liberal population. It was a culture shock to me when we first moved there (naked bike ride, anyone?), and I considered myself pretty left of center. Educated population, and a great state university system to boot.

Warm weather/minimal snow (or at least not colder than DC)

- It does get cold during the winter, but not bone-chilling cold the way it does in DC or the midwest. I don't think I saw more than an inch of snow in the city at any given time when we lived there. Plenty of snow on Mt. Hood, though, if you like to ski.

Accessible public transportation/not car dependent

- The Max is awesome and easy to use. The hubs and I used to live in the burbs and would take the Max downtown for events to avoid driving and paying for parking. I also took the Max almost every day for work.

Laidback attitude

- There's a very "live-and-let-live" attitude in the city that I liked, but sometimes it was almost too laid back. [/list]

So I am having the same thoughts myself living in NYC and growing up in DC and have considered the following as reasonable options. I am pretty burned out with NYC so the plan is to move to Park City in a year (when my Fiancee graduates from grad school).

More generally, look into college towns. They are normally walkable, educated, with good culture and things to do.

Nashville. Check out Germantown, just north of Downtown. Bikeable to everything (East Nashville, Midtown, and Downtown. ) Nashville is more than just country music too... check out the live on the green concert series which is free.

Two inexpensive, liberal, college towns with plenty to do (I live in on and lived in the other) are Gainesville and Tallahassee, FL. Athens is another, within easy reach of Atlanta. Gainesville is close to Orlando, Jacksonville, and Tampa. Tallahassee is a bit farther from everything (4 hours to Atlanta, Orlando and Tampa, a bit less to Jax). All places with lots going on and cheap COL.

Portland OR, Austin, Denver or nearby, Phoenix if you can stand the heat isn't horrible. That's my list so far of places where I (I, not necessarily you) can be paid a bunch but spend very little.

Currently living in the bay area, which can be fantastic if you're good at not spending money, or terrible if you feel the need for kids, pets, lots of room, and having nice things like everyone near you has.

I lived in Portland, OR, for six years and loved it. I think it meets all of your criteria as well.[...] It does get cold during the winter, but not bone-chilling cold the way it does in DC or the midwest. I don't think I saw more than an inch of snow in the city at any given time when we lived there. Plenty of snow on Mt. Hood, though, if you like to ski.

I didn't really consider Portland before because of the weather, but now I'll look into it - thanks!

I lived there for a couple years and am bummed to not live in a place nearly as great anymore (I live in Atlanta now).

Louisville is compact, with interesting and very distinctive quirky neighborhoods that feel almost like different cities all compacted together. The cost of living is very low, there are little farmer's markets in most neighborhoods, and all kinds of fun free or cheap stuff to do. I had a 1 bedroom decent apartment in the best part of town (Cherokee Triangle, one block from Cherokee park which was designed by the Olmsted Brothers who designed Central Park in NYC) for $500/month including all utilities. It was walking distance from 20 restaurants 15 bars, and 2 grocery stores, a post office, etc.

Good neighborhoods: The Highlands, Clifton, Old Louisville, and Germantown.

If you're into more rural settings, Missoula Montana is pretty great and surrounded by majestic landscapes.

Two lakes right in the middle of town, a massive college, beautiful capitol that is the true center of the city culturally, and it is much cheaper than DC. It is a bit colder but might be worth it. Super liberal and plenty of trails, rivers and lakes. Bicyclist are extremely prevalent so drivers are looking for them, and there are protected bike lanes especially downtown and near the University. The farmer's market around the capitol every Saturday has to be the best in the US. Also there are free concerts on the capitol lawn, and art fairs regularly. Worth looking into.

Two lakes right in the middle of town, a massive college, beautiful capitol that is the true center of the city culturally, and it is much cheaper than DC. It is a bit colder but might be worth it. Super liberal and plenty of trails, rivers and lakes. Bicyclist are extremely prevalent so drivers are looking for them, and there are protected bike lanes especially downtown and near the University. The farmer's market around the capitol every Saturday has to be the best in the US. Also there are free concerts on the capitol lawn, and art fairs regularly. Worth looking into.

Low COL compared to DC (aka not SF or NYC): You can get a waterfront property downtown for $500-1000/month on a 15 year mortgage. Several rental apartment complexes are being built downtown or have opened recently.

Lots to do - concerts, author talks, free events, etc. Definitely. Check out the 2 universities, too. One is 4 miles away in the village of De Pere.

Urban or a small city. Yup.

Liberal and educated population. We're getting there, on both counts. You can find like-minded people easily and the others don't make life hell for us. The education sector is growing, especially in the health sciences.

One city that I've often wondered about myself that I don't see come up here on the forums very often is Columbus, Ohio. We live a few hours away but occasionally pass through using the airport and I've been very interested in checking it out more. I know a couple of people who have lived there and generally speak highly of it. A "small big city," seems like a very reasonable COL, well located to lots of parks and outdoors stuff, big university.

I thought any city was MMM-approved - it's how you live in that city that's important! A high-COL area usually has a high-COL salary for the same work.

+1. Anyway, that's my rationalization. I would probably take a sharp pay cut outside of a major and expensive city plus a good chunk of my savings rate is derived from not owning a car (I'm far less mustachian when it comes to eating out and other social events). I hear the complaint about everyone around you being job-focused, but I think it's more a reflection of your age. Everyone who moves to DC after school is trying to prove themselves and get ahead. Give it a couple years and people will chill out and loosen up, or at least that was my experience.

All that aside, I don't plan to FIRE here because I will then prefer warmth and cheap living to cultural events, social activities, transit, and job opportunities.

I have a long list of qualities I'll look for in a city when I'm choosing where to retire. So far no city meets all of my requirements, and likely no city ever will.

-Reliable, renewable, local source of potable water-Not prone to natural disasters (unfortunately this eliminates almost all of the Pacific Northwest, an otherwise great place to live)-Temperate climate, accounting for the likelihood of future global warming. So basically, as far north as possible.-Low crime rate-Rural-Cheap land within walking distance of a grocery store-Lots of sunlight (this unfortunately conflicts with the previous goal of "as far north as possible")-Fiber optic broadband that's provided by a company that respects net neutrality. At this point that basically means only Google Fiber, which limits my choices to only four cities, none of which meet all of my other requirements.-Legal marijuana (irrelevant at this point since it's still illegal federally, but a man can dream)-Low taxes, especially property tax-Legal and cheap (perhaps even subsidized) to install solar panels. Even better if the power company is legally compelled to pay me for extra electricity production.

I have a long list of qualities I'll look for in a city when I'm choosing where to retire. So far no city meets all of my requirements, and likely no city ever will.

-Reliable, renewable, local source of potable water-Not prone to natural disasters (unfortunately this eliminates almost all of the Pacific Northwest, an otherwise great place to live)-Temperate climate, accounting for the likelihood of future global warming. So basically, as far north as possible.-Low crime rate-Rural-Cheap land within walking distance of a grocery store-Lots of sunlight (this unfortunately conflicts with the previous goal of "as far north as possible")-Fiber optic broadband that's provided by a company that respects net neutrality. At this point that basically means only Google Fiber, which limits my choices to only four cities, none of which meet all of my other requirements.-Legal marijuana (irrelevant at this point since it's still illegal federally, but a man can dream)-Low taxes, especially property tax-Legal and cheap (perhaps even subsidized) to install solar panels. Even better if the power company is legally compelled to pay me for extra electricity production.

This sounds like somewhere in Montana (save for a few elements, like Google Fiber--but perhaps in the near future?). I have a handful of friends who live there and love it.

I'll just leave this list here for Des Moines. I've been here six years and it's an absolute steal compared to most metros. COL is extremely low compared to wages. Property taxes are a little higher than you'd think on residential property (have you thanked a farmer today?). Plenty to do, especially in the summer with festivals, farmers market, public concerts and a nice performing arts scene. It's got both an urban liberal scene and a center-right suburban ring, although from what I've witnessed, the farther you live from downtown the less likely you are to appreciate what's there. If you're into liberal politics, you'll see plenty of presidential candidates, likely in someone's living room, back yard, or at the state fair and actually have a conversation with them...I remember when Joe Biden was running for president in 2008, I stumbled into a stump speech he was giving to less than 10 students in a book store. Same goes for the conservatives. Weather is a little more brisk, but embrace it. Snowshoeing, cross country skiing, sledding, ice skating and hockey are all awesome and healthy winter activities. Public transit is decent downtown, but not anywhere close to a top 20 metro.

How about Mustachian Canadian cities? That also fit OP's criteria, which would be mine too, more or less. The weather would be the hardest factor- I love Montreal but the winter is not nice. I don't mind summer heat, but the cold- no.

Baltimore is right up the road from you and Richmond is just a little farther south. Both might be worth a look. Baltimore is probably a little grittier and more liberal while Richmond is more conservative...but they both have lower COLs and similar climates.

I live in Baltimore, and love it. It's not perfect, but it has a lot going for it.

I live in Long Beach, CA, and I recommend it highly. It's entirely walkable/bikeable/busable, and you can easily hop on the metro line to get into downtown Los Angeles (and beyond). There are lots of local events and things to do, a great and very diverse community.

Long Beach has a higher COL than lots of places in the midwest, but for a city in southern CA it is very affordable. My partner and I live in a really nice historic craftsman 2 bedroom apartment (about 1300sq ft) three blocks from the beach for $1600/mo. It's not cheap, but in Los Angeles (or NYC or DC or many cities) you'd be paying $3500+ for this kind of apartment. I work on the west side of LA, and it is still worth it to me to live in Long Beach for the lower COL (and better community!) despite the awful commute.

Sometimes I think about moving to the midwest, or Portland for lower COL, but I worry that I would feel like it wasn't diverse enough. My brother lives in Portland, and it's a great city, but it is VERY white. And liberal. I am a white liberal myself, but I really like having different kinds of people with different perspectives around me.

One city that I've often wondered about myself that I don't see come up here on the forums very often is Columbus, Ohio. We live a few hours away but occasionally pass through using the airport and I've been very interested in checking it out more. I know a couple of people who have lived there and generally speak highly of it. A "small big city," seems like a very reasonable COL, well located to lots of parks and outdoors stuff, big university.

Baltimore is right up the road from you and Richmond is just a little farther south. Both might be worth a look. Baltimore is probably a little grittier and more liberal while Richmond is more conservative...but they both have lower COLs and similar climates.

I live in Baltimore, and love it. It's not perfect, but it has a lot going for it.

Thanks for your suggestions! I was actually just in Richmond, and it definitely seems like a great city.

I have thought a lot about Baltimore because of the low COL, but the combo of high crime + lack of public transportation + not as educated people is what would hold me back. It's a cool city to visit, and a lot of my friends love living there, but I don't think it's for me.

Tampa's pretty decent, although public transit isn't exactly top-notch. There's an outside shot that the rail system between Tampa, Orlando, and Miami will happen, though. A private company is currently working on an Orlando to Miami route.

I'd like a city that's rural, in the moist desert, near the flat mountains, where it snows but isn't cold. Where should I go? :)

Yeah, I know a lot of my requirements are mutually exclusive. Pretty much no rural area is ever going to have fiber optic broadband. Areas farther north are less well-suited for solar power. Something's going to have to give.

I'll mention Atlanta since I have lived there and you mention weather. Decent size, several solid universities. Lots of parks, wooded areas and social areas. Huge airport hub to easily get you elsewhere.

Annf

I've lived in two college towns. Lincoln, NE and Madison, WI. Lincoln is BY FAR the more affordable place. Housing costs are significantly less than Madison. The trail system in Lincoln is more cohesive.

Madison is prettier and there are more outdoor activities. Madison might appear more liberal but we found more hypocrites (I.e. we support public education but we will send OUR kids to the 20K private schools). And the winters have been brutal. Not just cold but cloudy. The dark days got to me.

We now live in Denver and even though its more expensive housing wise, we save more money. We live right by work and hardly ever drive. The weather is amazing and the sun shines almost every day.

We like Denver best. One thing to realize about college towns is that they are harder to meet people if you didn't grow up there or go to college there. We are in out late 30's with no kids so its even harder to meet people. Downtown Denver is loaded with people not from here so it's been easy building a social network.

I'm looking for the same thing, except I'd replace "liberal" with "minorities won't be the target of hate crimes." And also zoning allowing livestock. Any tips guys?

Hmmm, Phoenix?

zoning and livestock does not equal the urban walk-to's bikeable, transit, libraries, entertainment that you mentioned, outside of places like berkley, anyway.

Phoenix sounds like a decent suggestion. My spouse and I care somewhat less about culture and urban niceties than many. But we don't want to live in a place where we would be ostracized or obviously don't fit in, either.

I'm looking for the same thing, except I'd replace "liberal" with "minorities won't be the target of hate crimes." And also zoning allowing livestock. Any tips guys?

Hmmm, Phoenix?

zoning and livestock does not equal the urban walk-to's bikeable, transit, libraries, entertainment that you mentioned, outside of places like berkley, anyway.

Phoenix sounds like a decent suggestion. My spouse and I care somewhat less about culture and urban niceties than many. But we don't want to live in a place where we would be ostracized or obviously don't fit in, either.

Don't forget -- Different cities have differerent racist attitudes. Winnipeg was just named Canada's most racist city, by one paper, and it was based on aboriginal / native canadian racism, which is unfortunately more prevalent than many Canadians will admit to. But black, hispanic, filopino, asian, etc., no so much.

Nashville, TN, and surrounding area. We have the good aspects of the city, and are surrounded by state parks and national parks, more rivers than any other state if you like fishing. Its just a beautiful place to live, and its in the top e10 on the cheapest cities to live in.

I'm looking for the same thing, except I'd replace "liberal" with "minorities won't be the target of hate crimes." And also zoning allowing livestock. Any tips guys?

Hmmm, Phoenix?

zoning and livestock does not equal the urban walk-to's bikeable, transit, libraries, entertainment that you mentioned, outside of places like berkley, anyway.

Phoenix sounds like a decent suggestion. My spouse and I care somewhat less about culture and urban niceties than many. But we don't want to live in a place where we would be ostracized or obviously don't fit in, either.

I live in Chicago, which has everything except low COL and warm weather (but man, May-September are GLORIOUS). I know people in Little Rock and Fayetteville, AR, who are fairly liberal leaning and get around on bikes. I hear great things about Savannah, GA, and Huntsville, AL, but I have no idea about COL.

Fayetteville, AR is really neat, and reminded me a bit of State College, PA, where I lived during grad school. I would describe both as remote, though, but you do get a lot of cool stuff going on because of the large universities (we drove there from Tulsa last year to see my favorite band), and both are pretty awesome if you enjoy outdoorsy activities/the woods. I really like Madison, too (but maybe too cold?).