That's three ok players, one slightly below average player, and one terrible player. Kruger, one of the ok players, has been upgraded to Dumervil. Another of the ok players will be upgraded to an elite one just by Webb coming off of IR. The third ok player plays a non-premium position that can be filled in the mid rounds. The below average player is at one of the strongest positions in the draft. Ray Lewis' 2012 production an be replaced by most anyone.

The biggest loss on that team is Boldin, imo. The defense, which wasn't exactly elite anyway, is going to be fine.

This. People are so overreactionary it's not even funny. Baltimore drafts well and replaces talent, this is the reason they have so much in house talent to re-sign right now. But all of a sudden people think he should re-sign a bunch of average to solid contributors to big time contracts in free agency, yea that's obviously a recipe for success that all the SB winning teams do right?

Cary Williams is the definition of average and they have Webb and Jimmy Smith there anyway. All they need is Safeties and a ILB, I bet they end up with 2 future starters with their first 2 picks at both those positions. And this is a defense that wasn't that good to begin with, so not seeing why over paying average players would help them out any. Dumervil across from Suggs with Ngata in the middle is something most defenses wish they could build around. As easy as it was for them to find Ellerbe they'll find someone else the same way, they drafted and/or signed all these guys anyway but everybody thinks they should drop that policy and start dishing out money.

But that's not as fun to say "hahahahaha Joe Flacco way to cost your entire team depth lolozlzz"

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

I think people were criticizing making Baltimore a top 10 team after losing 4 starters from a less than stellar D last season.
The question should be do you think the Ravens D will be as good next year??
I don't.

Probably better for Baltimore to lose these players instead of overpaying for them. Newsome will reload that defense and they should at least be middle of the pack if not better next year. They were not spectacular in 2012 that's for sure.

I think people were criticizing making Baltimore a top 10 team after losing 4 starters from a less than stellar D last season.
The question should be do you think the Ravens D will be as good next year??
I don't.

I find it hard to agree with any arguments putting Baltimore outside the top 10, mainly because there is that top tier with the 3 elite QBs and the 2 elite Ds (Broncos, 49ers, Packers, Patriots, Seahawks) then the second tier with proven playoff ability and overall balance (Ravens, Falcons, Texans) and it's basically a "pick whomever" from a group of about 8 equally flawed teams for the last couple of spots (Saints, Bears, Bengals, Colts, Giants, Redskins, Panthers, Vikings come to mind first.)

That Ravens pass rush is looking potentially terrifying; Suggs, Ngata and Dumervil is at worst the second best front-seven trio in the league. Flacco is okay. Some good receivers. Ray Rice is regular season gold.

1. 49ers - seemed primed for a huge season if Kaepernick can produce again
2. Broncos - not a threat in the playoffs but a regular season giant
3. Packers - always a threat with Rodgers around
4. Patriots - could be improved with a young defense
5. Giants - should bounce back with the SB winner off their backs
6. Seahawks - looks solid on paper but Wilson may find the league tougher
7. Bears - really like their offense for the coming season
8. Falcons - lost some talent, have to see if they have enough to repeat
9. Lions - Should be the most improved team in the NFL
10. Saints - Lost their LT and a few other talents, might be tougher to come back than people think.

I know we hate the 49ers, but we still need to at least try to be objective. The 9ers have the most stacked defensive talent in the league.

Stacked? Really?

Did you actually watch them in the latter half of the season last year and in the playoffs after Justin Smith was injured?

Their depth on the DL after Justin Smith & Ray McDonald is basically nonexistent. And Justin Smith is getting older and injuries are piling up. Without him, their front seven is merely average to above average.

Their depth at DB is sketchy at best and the starters (Culliver, Rogers, Brown, Whitner) aren't great as it is. Goldson was their best DB and he's gone. The rest are basically average DBs playing behind a great DL (when everyone's healthy).

They have the best ILBs in the league but that is the least important position on defense.

Now, that doesn't mean that they can't improve their roster through the draft, but right now, on paper it's not a great defense with alot of depth and it probably won't play on as high of a level as it has in the past two years.

Aldon Smith was hurt at the end of last season, it wasn't just Justin Smith being out that hurt his production. Their DBs as a unit are good, and their LB corps is the best in the league.

They may not have outstanding depth but when their starting 11 are on the field together healthy, IMO that's a top 5 defense.

Their DBs are mediocre at best without Goldson. This is a classic case of zone DBs playing behind a great DL (past 2 years) that hides their deficiencies in coverage.

Whitner, Culliver, Rogers, Brown - there's basically no real elite physical talent in that group at all. If the 49ers DL doesn't play on a high level this year they will be exposed just like they were in the playoffs and the latter half of the 2012 season.

Their *ILB* corps is the best in the league but I'd take many teams' 3-4 OLBs over theirs. Aldon Smith has been productive but he's not a top-5 OLB in this league and I'm still not sold on him being an impact player without Justin Smith holding Guards to let him run free up the middle on stunts.

Their DBs are mediocre at best without Goldson. This is a classic case of zone DBs playing behind a great DL (past 2 years) that hides their deficiencies in coverage.

Whitner, Culliver, Rogers, Brown - there's basically no real elite physical talent in that group at all. If the 49ers DL doesn't play on a high level this year they will be exposed just like they were in the playoffs and the latter half of the 2012 season.

So now the Niners have to have an elite physical talent at every level like a pro bowl team? How many teams in the NFL have a front 7 like them but still have elite talents in the secondary? You say that as a knock as if that is the norm or something.

Quote:

Their *ILB* corps is the best in the league but I'd take many teams' 3-4 OLBs over theirs. Aldon Smith has been productive but he's not a top-5 OLB in this league and I'm still not sold on him being an impact player without Justin Smith holding Guards to let him run free up the middle on stunts.

Who are those many teams? I'm curious to hear you list a few. Baltimore now of course but who else? And Aldon Smith isn't a top 5 OLB in the entire NFL probably because he's 23 years old and been in the league for 2 seasons. Stop using the loftiest of expectations to try and discredit how good a player is, takes away from you're argument.

That's like me saying "Kaepernick played well, but he's not a top 5 QB in this league at all". No ****. It's not the norm for any 23 year older to play 2 years and be top 5 at his position. That's just an easy way to try and talk around giving a talented player credit.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

I've put the 49ers at the top of my list but there are no guarantees in pro football. After all, everybody is assuming that Kaepernick will play as well next year as he did at the end of last year and that is an uncertainty, not a given.
On paper, they are the favourites but on paper doesn't win games, that is still to be proven.

I find it hard to agree with any arguments putting Baltimore outside the top 10, mainly because there is that top tier with the 3 elite QBs and the 2 elite Ds (Broncos, 49ers, Packers, Patriots, Seahawks) then the second tier with proven playoff ability and overall balance (Ravens, Falcons, Texans) and it's basically a "pick whomever" from a group of about 8 equally flawed teams for the last couple of spots (Saints, Bears, Bengals, Colts, Giants, Redskins, Panthers, Vikings come to mind first.)

That Ravens pass rush is looking potentially terrifying; Suggs, Ngata and Dumervil is at worst the second best front-seven trio in the league. Flacco is okay. Some good receivers. Ray Rice is regular season gold.

Anytime you lose 2 HOFers off your defense, it is going to have an impact. What was their record with and without Lewis and you may find your answer and it isn't pretty, throw in Reed's lose and it get compounded and I'm not even counting Kruger and Ellerbe.
Add in the lose of Bolden and it gets nastier and nastier. If they cannot sign a LT, it gets even worse and it is hard to believe they will remain a top 10 team.

Yeah, a terribly misplayed ball and we have a different SB champion. Not a threat? Come on.

Have you looked at Peyton's playoff record in his prime, it isn't pretty and he's older now and has lost some talent in his arm. He just isn't the same when the playoffs roll around but I can understand your anger with all the hype that follows him.

Have you looked at Peyton's playoff record in his prime, it isn't pretty and he's older now and has lost some talent in his arm. He just isn't the same when the playoffs roll around but I can understand your anger with all the hype that follows him.

I'm not angry, I'm confused. With how they were ousted last year in the playoffs, the Ravens losses on D, the high seed theyll inevitably get, and the addition of Welker. They have to atleast be a threat.

I'm not angry, I'm confused. With how they were ousted last year in the playoffs, the Ravens losses on D, the high seed theyll inevitably get, and the addition of Welker. They have to atleast be a threat.

No doubt in my mind that they will win the AFC West and be a threat but Peyton has disappointed many times during his career and he's older and less talented now. Of course, Denver has a solid defense as well so you never know, I guess.
As a team, I put them at #2 but as a SB possibility, I'd drop them to the 8 or 9 range, not out of the equation but definitely a longshot IMO, which doesn't count for a lot.

Have you looked at Peyton's playoff record in his prime, it isn't pretty and he's older now and has lost some talent in his arm. He just isn't the same when the playoffs roll around but I can understand your anger with all the hype that follows him.

Peyton Manning did enough to win that game last year in the playoffs.

Rahim Moore single-handedly gave the game to the Ravens, so no, Manning is still fully capable of winning a another Super Bowl if his defense decides to actually show up and play.

No doubt in my mind that they will win the AFC West and be a threat but Peyton has disappointed many times during his career and he's older and less talented now. Of course, Denver has a solid defense as well so you never know, I guess.
As a team, I put them at #2 but as a SB possibility, I'd drop them to the 8 or 9 range, not out of the equation but definitely a longshot IMO, which doesn't count for a lot.

Peyton is less talented now? What did you watch last season? He had one of his best years! You can't convince me that there are 7 other teams you like to win the Super Bowl. Try. Please try.

So now the Niners have to have an elite physical talent at every level like a pro bowl team? How many teams in the NFL have a front 7 like them but still have elite talents in the secondary? You say that as a knock as if that is the norm or something.

No, you don't have to have elite physical talent at every position, but let's stop pretending that the 49ers have some great secondary here.

It's average or slightly above-average AT BEST. We've all seen how great DLines and pass rushes make average secondaries look alot better than they are, and how exposed those same secondaries can look without the pass rush / DLine. See: 2011/2012 Giants as well and 2010/2011 Packers.

The reason this is so important is because I am predicting that the 49ers DLine will fall off from their performance in 2011/2012 and the defense as a whole will regress dramatically.

Quote:

Who are those many teams? I'm curious to hear you list a few. Baltimore now of course but who else? And Aldon Smith isn't a top 5 OLB in the entire NFL probably because he's 23 years old and been in the league for 2 seasons. Stop using the loftiest of expectations to try and discredit how good a player is, takes away from you're argument.

Let's see, Aldon Smith, a good OLB, and Manny Lawson, an average OLB, and then some random scrubs for depth.

I'd take, among 3-4 teams, the following OLBs over what the 49ers have:

1. Dallas Cowboys - DeMarcus Ware & Anthony Spencer are far superior to what the 49ers have at OLB
2. Baltimore Ravens - Terrell Suggs & Courtney Upshaw even BEFORE Dumvervil signing
3. Seattle Seahawks (4-3 under == 3-4) - The combination of Cris Clemons, Bruce Irvin, Michael Bennett, and Cliff Avril far surpasses in the pass rush department what the 49ers can offer
4. Kansas City Chiefs - I'd take Tamba Hali and Justin Houston over Aldon Smith and some average player like Lawson or whoever else they trot out there
5. Washington Redskins - Brian Orakpo, when healthy, is better than Aldon Smith. Add Ryan Kerrigan on the other side and I'd take that tandem over the 49ers'
6. Green Bay Packers - Clay Matthews is better than any OLB on the 49ers roster. If Nick Perry can come back in his 2nd year and play at a decent level, I'd take what Green Bay has over what SF has.

Let's see, Aldon Smith, a good OLB, and Manny Lawson, an average OLB, and then some random scrubs for depth.

I'd take, among 3-4 teams, the following OLBs over what the 49ers have:

1. Dallas Cowboys - DeMarcus Ware & Anthony Spencer are far superior to what the 49ers have at OLB
2. Baltimore Ravens - Terrell Suggs & Courtney Upshaw even BEFORE Dumvervil signing
3. Seattle Seahawks (4-3 under == 3-4) - The combination of Cris Clemons, Bruce Irvin, Michael Bennett, and Cliff Avril far surpasses in the pass rush department what the 49ers can offer
4. Kansas City Chiefs - I'd take Tamba Hali and Justin Houston over Aldon Smith and some average player like Lawson or whoever else they trot out there
5. Washington Redskins - Brian Orakpo, when healthy, is better than Aldon Smith. Add Ryan Kerrigan on the other side and I'd take that tandem over the 49ers'
6. Green Bay Packers - Clay Matthews is better than any OLB on the 49ers roster. If Nick Perry can come back in his 2nd year and play at a decent level, I'd take what Green Bay has over what SF has.

Differing opinions is fine - makes a message board fun.

Tough to take you seriously though when you say Manny Lawson is a 49er. Been a bengal for 2 years? And then recently signed with Buffalo this offseason.

No, you don't have to have elite physical talent at every position, but let's stop pretending that the 49ers have some great secondary here.

It's average or slightly above-average AT BEST. We've all seen how great DLines and pass rushes make average secondaries look alot better than they are, and how exposed those same secondaries can look without the pass rush / DLine. See: 2011/2012 Giants as well and 2010/2011 Packers.

The reason this is so important is because I am predicting that the 49ers DLine will fall off from their performance in 2011/2012 and the defense as a whole will regress dramatically.

Let's see, Aldon Smith, a good OLB, and Manny Lawson, an average OLB, and then some random scrubs for depth.

I'd take, among 3-4 teams, the following OLBs over what the 49ers have:

1. Dallas Cowboys - DeMarcus Ware & Anthony Spencer are far superior to what the 49ers have at OLB
2. Baltimore Ravens - Terrell Suggs & Courtney Upshaw even BEFORE Dumvervil signing
3. Seattle Seahawks (4-3 under == 3-4) - The combination of Cris Clemons, Bruce Irvin, Michael Bennett, and Cliff Avril far surpasses in the pass rush department what the 49ers can offer
4. Kansas City Chiefs - I'd take Tamba Hali and Justin Houston over Aldon Smith and some average player like Lawson or whoever else they trot out there
5. Washington Redskins - Brian Orakpo, when healthy, is better than Aldon Smith. Add Ryan Kerrigan on the other side and I'd take that tandem over the 49ers'
6. Green Bay Packers - Clay Matthews is better than any OLB on the 49ers roster. If Nick Perry can come back in his 2nd year and play at a decent level, I'd take what Green Bay has over what SF has.

Manny Lawson plays for the Bills now, and previously played for the Bengals. The Niners have Ahmad Brooks who is an above average OLB. Also Orakpo isn't better than Smith, and I'd argue Matthews isn't either. The 49ers defense is the best in football, with an argument to be made for Seattle as well.

1. 49ers - seemed primed for a huge season if Kaepernick can produce again
2. Broncos - not a threat in the playoffs but a regular season giant
3. Packers - always a threat with Rodgers around
4. Patriots - could be improved with a young defense
5. Giants - should bounce back with the SB winner off their backs
6. Seahawks - looks solid on paper but Wilson may find the league tougher
7. Bears - really like their offense for the coming season
8. Falcons - lost some talent, have to see if they have enough to repeat
9. Lions - Should be the most improved team in the NFL
10. Saints - Lost their LT and a few other talents, might be tougher to come back than people think.

Let's see, Aldon Smith, a good OLB, and Manny Lawson, an average OLB, and then some random scrubs for depth.

I'd take, among 3-4 teams, the following OLBs over what the 49ers have:

1. Dallas Cowboys - DeMarcus Ware & Anthony Spencer are far superior to what the 49ers have at OLB
2. Baltimore Ravens - Terrell Suggs & Courtney Upshaw even BEFORE Dumvervil signing
3. Seattle Seahawks (4-3 under == 3-4) - The combination of Cris Clemons, Bruce Irvin, Michael Bennett, and Cliff Avril far surpasses in the pass rush department what the 49ers can offer
4. Kansas City Chiefs - I'd take Tamba Hali and Justin Houston over Aldon Smith and some average player like Lawson or whoever else they trot out there
5. Washington Redskins - Brian Orakpo, when healthy, is better than Aldon Smith. Add Ryan Kerrigan on the other side and I'd take that tandem over the 49ers'
6. Green Bay Packers - Clay Matthews is better than any OLB on the 49ers roster. If Nick Perry can come back in his 2nd year and play at a decent level, I'd take what Green Bay has over what SF has.

Well for one, you have to get the players right if you want to critique how they aren't any good. For two, it's obvious to tell you're just reaching when you specifically said "I would take many teams 3-4 OLBers over theirs" and you go on to list Seattle and name a bunch of 4-3 DE's and guys who have never played 3-4 OLB. Way to make your point. Kansas City is just trolling so we'll overlook that, GB has one OLB, one, so you can't just take Mathews and invent anybody on the other side and think he's better then what we have seen from Ahmad Brooks. Most people wouldn't take Washington either but at least their respectable.

I was asking to see what you came up with, and you didn't let me down.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.