I was seeing the discourse moving in that direction some time ago. There's a familiar pattern of thought that I could see cropping up. Using Erwin Rommel as an example of heroism probably helped it along.

Americans, and to a lesser extent Brits, appear to have lost the ability to acknowledge virtue in (i.e. to respect) their enemies. To admit some good in an evil man is commonly taken among our people to be an act of making an excuse for his acts, or being an "apologist". Clearly, few in America consider the 9/11 attackers heroic or brave, though I do.

I can't find out who said it, but there was some TV personality who, in the wake of 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan, observed the bare fact that it takes more courage to crash a plane into a building than it does to launch a cruise missile from a position of perfect safety. This truth provoked howls of outrage and he was made to apologize for it, though I couldn't see what the fuss was. Those men were undeniably brave -- braver by far than the pilot of the Enola Gay who killed far more innocents and lived to tell about it. They were admirably brave men, admirably true to their cause, who sacrificed themselves to set in motion a series of events that brought upon their people the white-hot hatred of the greatest military power on Earth and culminated in the conquest of two Muslim nations. None of their enemies could have hurt their cause worse than they themselves did.

If there were a Hell, it might be punishment enough that they be permitted to see the consequences of their acts.

Nevertheless, it was a brave act, and they were brave men to do it. You're right (accidentally -- you were just trying to be a mud-slinging twat, I'm sure) that I admired it. When I saw the WTC attacks I thought it was magnificent, though I couldn't figure out what the hell they were trying to accomplish. I feel about the same way about Pearl Harbor. Among those of us who can still admire the virtues of our enemies, yes, the Bad Guy can still be a hero.

technicolor-misfit:This isn't about bosses vs. peons. This is about insecure people who buy into some some lameass B-grade action movie version of honor and courage vs. people who don't feel the need to prove something by talking shiat on the internet about what badasses they'd be if anyone tried something while they were on the scene.

No, it isn't. I don't see anyone in this thread saying that he himself would be a badass in this situation. Some of us admire the act, and some of us feel the need to point out that it was was irrational, which has fark-all to do with being brave or heroic. Heroes generally are irrational. There was nothing on the heights of Normandy that was worth the lives of those who got themselves blown to bits trying to take it.

If there is anyone who looks like they have something to prove, it is those who, like you, are eager to respond to an act of bravery by saying, "...yeah, but he shouldn't have done it." The impulse to point out a man's faults when you hear of his virtues often comes from a bad place, and it makes you look bad.

Irrational bravery often makes the world a better place, and we admire it because it is a manifest recognition that there are things more important than your own life or safety. Sometimes those things are as insubstantial as an ideal. Take your human dignity for example. Some of us would submit to rape rather than die. Others of us would sooner die or risk death fighting off an armed rapist rather than be degraded in than fashion. The latter course is clearly irrational -- it is not worth your life to keep a penis out of your butt. Nevertheless, we admire and respect them that take the irrational option, and most of us are modest enough to admit that we don't know how we would act should we be confronted with the dire choice, though we hope we would be brave enough to be irrational.

Thievery is a lesser affront to human dignity than rape, but it still rankles. To stand by passively while some thug enriches himself at the expense of the law-abiding would be a bad feeling to a lot of us, like watching civilization take a wad of spit to the face. To venture a guess at the motives in this case, I doubt it was the money that mattered, nor a desire to protect the owner from loss. It was probably a matter of being too proud to allow a degenerate robber to walk over him, even though letting it happen would have been the rational thing to do. I salute this.

ISO15693:Subby... if the man is actually shooting people, and you subdue him, that's being a hero. If you escalate a situtation like this, by attacking the guy with the weapon - that's just stupidity. You are essentially risking your life, and the life of everyone around you, to try and grab some glory. Thats the ultimate in selfish.

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Right, because in the long, glorious history of armed robberies, no scumbag has EVER taken the money and then just killed everyone in sight for the fark of it. Armed robbers are always rational and reasonable. They are never drug-addled lunatics.

All you people saying 'don't fight back, just give him the money'- where do y'all work again? I'm sure there are plenty of criminals who'd love to make an easy score tonight./stupidest thing since 'gun free home' signs

Captain Darling:CruiserTwelve: Why is the press afraid to report a suspect's race? It's the most visible aspect of a person's physical description, but they rarely include it. I'm guessing their afraid they'll look racist.

Or they don't want to deal with a deluge of racist comments that are inevitable any time a suspect's race is mentioned and it isn't white.

Doesn't work, though. The people who need to talk about it bring it up anyway.

Hector Remarkable:redmid17: Mad Mark: Hector Remarkable: If more surfers carried guns there'd be much less crime in Santa Cruz. And the more silver bullets, the less vampires. One thing I never could stand about the place.

What have you got against surfers and vampires?

He doesn't like that they don't carry guns very often.

Look, surfing vampires are a problem. And now, if we've got vampires, surfing at us, shooting at us, what chance do we have? What chance, I ask you, do we have against vampires riding the waves when they're shooting back at us? The whole place is out of control. Lots of vampires. Lots of surfers. Lots of shooting. This guy clearly only escaped because he was a surfing vampire, and he's out there now, with a shotgun, surfing around Monterrey Bay, by the moonlight, shooting off his shotgun, and drinking the blood of innocent Californian boaters. And I say that's very, very wrong.

Seems like in most cases if the person has a gun and you don't, unless they are there to KILL you, if they just want money, let them freakin' have it. Is your life (or anyone else's who might be caught in the crossfire) worth whatever they were planning on stealing?

Not sure if this guy is a hero. Especially if other people were in the room.