Author
Topic: God's Existence [#2699] (Read 1986 times)

Hello,I just watched your video and I found it very impotent in giving an authentic reason for the nonexistence of God. First, it is interesting that of all the religions that express a faith in God, you chose to attack Christianity. Why not attack the Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, New Age faiths. They all purport a belief in a Supreme Being, although the New Agers believe they are god. If you want to expose something as irrational why don't you expose the irrationality of the New Age faith which, by the way, is growing by leaps and bounds. I would think you would find that particular delusion especially repugnant. Secondly, how do you know that an amputee has never had a regenerated limb? Have you spoken with and investigated all the cases of people who have amputated limbs and whether or not God healed them? There are over 6 billion people in the world, and there have been many cases of amputation in the history of the world and are you saying that you know unequivocally that God never regenerated any of those limbs? You are, because of this lack of knowledge, coming to the whole question with an a priori mindset. In the gospels there are many references to Jesus healing the maimed, those missing limbs. The rest of your arguments are extremely specious and show that you have no knowledge or understanding of God, the Scriptures, or mankind. You attribute to God the failings of people when talking about starving children. “Much food is in the fallow ground of the poor, And for lack of justice there is waste.” If your world is so great without God then why is there brutality, slavery, sexual exploitation and sexual slavery, murder, defamation of character, injustice, war, gossip, sexual perversion, hatred, arrogance, stupidity, mass murder, oppression, exploitation, duplicity, jealousy, greed, envy, rebellion, thievery, etc. Why aren’t you and your kind making the necessary changes to deal with all of these curses of mankind. No, instead, you target people who by their faith in Jesus Christ are striving to live lives of love, mercy, grace and goodness. You are by your very existence proving that God is true but every man a liar. Your refusal to repent of your sins and believe in the vast evidences of God in His creation and documented in the Bible and especially given to us through the life of His Son Jesus Christ, verifies what God says about mankind that they are estranged from the womb and do not seek God. There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.’ Jesus Christ has appeared to His people, but not to unbelievers. As an adult, I was turned from atheism to faith in Jesus Christ when He met me over 30 years ago. He saved me and gave me His salvation, hope, love, mercy and grace. I see Him answer prayer for me all of the time. Of course, I would never expect an unbeliever to acknowledge what I know to be true. Just because you attack Jesus Christ and those who have placed their faith in Him and His death on the cross for their sins, and His resurrection from the dead, doesn’t cut you off from the ability of God to save you. I was once like you, and God in His infinite mercy and grace saved me from damnation in hell for rebelling against Him and His holiness, and instead forgave me and has given me eternal life. “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God.”Oh, by the way, you testify that your lack of belief in God hasn’t made you superior, since your divorce rate is the same as those who attend church. Therefore, lying about God’s existence wouldn’t really make me any better in that regard at all. I know that by God’s mercy and grace, my husband and I have been committed to our covenant before God for the past 35 years. I am college educated with a master’s in chemistry. Your spurious arguments are no match for the power of God in the life of a believer and fall to the ground empty and beaten. It could be that God will save even you.[name removed]

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

We will pick on any god...even though I have a liking for Thor. Te bottom line is there is no evidence for such a creature as a god. All made up by primative man to explain things they did not understand. The world is a mess vbecause it always has been. I guess it is in our nature.

Wow. That was quite a lot of preaching with practically no substance. Maybe you should join the forum and discuss your points? There are plenty of former Christians here to talk with, as well as a few believers who defend YHWH.

Keep in mind, we are here to discuss these things, not to be preached at.

Since most of us here live in christian societies, we pick on you guys the most. But not to worry. Whenever the opportunity arises to diss other religions, we do it.

It was a christian who once sprayed spittle all over me while yelling that I was going to go to hell if I didn't accept the kid as my savior, etc. Not a muslim. Not a new ager. I take crap like that personal.

Don't worry. That didn't cause my atheism. It just reinforced it.

Now, which anecdotal story should I assume is more true. Your successful marriage or the bible study group I went to 30+ years ago where I, who was single, joined five couples in the meet-up. Nine of the 10 people amongst those couples had been married at least once before. Several had been married three times.

They thought that fact humorous.

My sampling was too small to draw accurate conclusions, as is yours of your own marriage. Statistically though, christians have no advantage. You're a chemist. You should know enough about statistics to understand that your personal experience does not necessarily, or in this case, even come close, to mirroring reality.

I can't speak for the others, but personally I have been unable to solve all the problems in the world because the bad are better at being bad than the good are at being good. I'd just shoot them, but then I'd be bad too, and then someone would have to shoot me, and they would then be bad, and the last person would have to shoot him or her self. I'm hoping for a better solution.

The truth is not an automatic solution to anything. It is a great beginning, but by itself is accomplishes nothing. And the most blatantly religious people I now know were the ones spewing the most hateful rhetoric about Obama and the democrats, rather than just more respectfully disagreeing. So I see no evidence that religion in and of itself is a cure for our ills either.

My assumption, as an atheist, is that the world will be easier to fix if we can get rid of the cruft. Which includes religion.

Don't worry. If we actually get a chance to start fixing things, you can stay married, even without god.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

If your world is so great without God then why is there brutality, slavery, sexual exploitation and sexual slavery, murder, defamation of character, injustice, war, gossip, sexual perversion, hatred, arrogance, stupidity, mass murder, oppression, exploitation, duplicity, jealousy, greed, envy, rebellion, thievery, etc. Why aren’t you and your kind making the necessary changes to deal with all of these curses of mankind. [name removed]

You see, I'm confused here. Why does your omnipotent god allow this things? Is it all that "free will" test to see how we do?

For much of humanity, religion has taught those who were suffering slavery and oppression and injustice, that they should just suck it up. If they suffered with dignity for this short lifetime, they would get an eternity in heaven.

I don't believe in heaven. I believe that this life is the only life that every human being has. And it is that belief that drives me to fight against oppression and injustice. If I thought this life were just an audition for the afterlife, I wouldn't be concerned about human suffering.

I just watched your video and I found it very impotent in giving an authentic reason for the nonexistence of God.

Really? you don't say? do tell.

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First, it is interesting that of all the religions that express a faith in God, you chose to attack Christianity.

Actually it's not surprising. If the person who made the video was or lived in a dominant place that was Islamic, then it would be a video focused on Islam. The same for Hinduism, or Judaism, or any other dominant region that showcases one religion above all the rest. So, in this case: it isn't "interesting", as you say, since the dominant religion for the person who made the video lived or lives in an area dominated by Christianity. See how simple it is to comprehend such a conclusion?

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Why not attack the Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, New Age faiths. They all purport a belief in a Supreme Being, although the New Agers believe they are god. If you want to expose something as irrational why don't you expose the irrationality of the New Age faith which, by the way, is growing by leaps and bounds.

See above. Also, though Christianity may be the focus point, or main object of discussion, any religion with a god or gods or even without is also up for ridicule.

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I would think you would find that particular delusion especially repugnant. Secondly, how do you know that an amputee has never had a regenerated limb?

Evidence--there is none.

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Have you spoken with and investigated all the cases of people who have amputated limbs and whether or not God healed them? There are over 6 billion people in the world, and there have been many cases of amputation in the history of the world and are you saying that you know unequivocally that God never regenerated any of those limbs?

If there's no unbiased evidence showing any of those who have even ventured to state Biblegod or any god has done such a thing then the answer would be concluded from the lack of evidence (or none at all) that it has never happened. Oh, and keep up with society: there's now more than 7 billion people in the world. And yet still no evidence of it happening. Dumbfounding, isn't it?

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You are, because of this lack of knowledge, coming to the whole question with an a priori mindset. In the gospels there are many references to Jesus healing the maimed, those missing limbs.

After reading the above you will find that this would be "biased". Also, it can't be confirmed. Just because someone said it happened, doesn't mean it did. I mean, I could say I am GOD, and how could you show evidence otherwise? You couldn't. See the dilemma?

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The rest of your arguments are extremely specious and show that you have no knowledge or understanding of God, the Scriptures, or mankind. You attribute to God the failings of people when talking about starving children. “Much food is in the fallow ground of the poor, And for lack of justice there is waste.” If your world is so great without God then why is there brutality, slavery, sexual exploitation and sexual slavery, murder, defamation of character, injustice, war, gossip, sexual perversion, hatred, arrogance, stupidity, mass murder, oppression, exploitation, duplicity, jealousy, greed, envy, rebellion, thievery, etc.

Are you saying that with Biblegod none of this exists? Have you read your Bible? Apparently not.

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Why aren’t you and your kind making the necessary changes to deal with all of these curses of mankind. No, instead, you target people who by their faith in Jesus Christ are striving to live lives of love, mercy, grace and goodness.

So, stoning people for working on the Sabbath is loving and peaceful? Condemning people to an eternity of torture for not accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour is peaceful? You have a warped sense of "loving" and "peaceful".

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You are by your very existence proving that God is true but every man a liar. Your refusal to repent of your sins and believe in the vast evidences of God in His creation and documented in the Bible and especially given to us through the life of His Son Jesus Christ, verifies what God says about mankind that they are estranged from the womb and do not seek God.

Nonsense.

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There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.’ Jesus Christ has appeared to His people, but not to unbelievers. As an adult, I was turned from atheism to faith in Jesus Christ when He met me over 30 years ago. He saved me and gave me His salvation, hope, love, mercy and grace. I see Him answer prayer for me all of the time.

Did he answer the prayers of all the people who have been killed over the years over senseless things? Did he answer the prayers of all the good Christian women who were raped, or beaten by someone?

Why are you special in getting your prayers answered but no one else? Unless you have tangible evidence, you are speaking nonsense.

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Of course, I would never expect an unbeliever to acknowledge what I know to be true.

Of course not. Because as you say: it's what you know to be true. That doesn't apply to everyone else.

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Just because you attack Jesus Christ and those who have placed their faith in Him and His death on the cross for their sins, and His resurrection from the dead, doesn’t cut you off from the ability of God to save you. I was once like you, and God in His infinite mercy and grace saved me from damnation in hell for rebelling against Him and His holiness, and instead forgave me and has given me eternal life. “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God.”

If you were a True Believer, and read your Bible like a good Christian, then you'd know even speaking to the non-believer is not only pointless but also not allowed (2 Cor.) But you're just a fool--but you know that 'cause the Bible tells you you are.

Also, you do realize many of us are former Christians, right? I am a former Southern Baptist, myself.

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Oh, by the way, you testify that your lack of belief in God hasn’t made you superior, since your divorce rate is the same as those who attend church.

This is something that requires evidence. Unless you can back it up, don't say it. And, how can one, statistically speaking, compare 1.6 billion Christians to a significant less number of atheists? You ask us for evidence yet provide none yourself in making a claim. See how idiotic that makes you look?

Also, so what? It just means "we" are human as the next person.

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Therefore, lying about God’s existence wouldn’t really make me any better in that regard at all. I know that by God’s mercy and grace, my husband and I have been committed to our covenant before God for the past 35 years. I am college educated with a master’s in chemistry. Your spurious arguments are no match for the power of God in the life of a believer and fall to the ground empty and beaten. It could be that God will save even you.[name removed]

Smart people can be stupid, too.

-Nam

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 10:19:06 PM by Nam »

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Things I've said here:

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I only have a filter for people who do not consistently beg to be belittled, ridiculed, insulted, and demeaned.

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I may believe people, as a whole, should be treated fairly but I also believe those same people are idiots.

Listen up numbnuts. Do you think that sentence above of yours shows good cause as to why we should believe in your ridiculously needy invention, your spurious "god of love"? No you cretin, you have just re-formulated the internationally famous most troubling quandary faced by every god-of-love believer.Namely, if this perfect god of love and goodness is the one and only creator of everything, then, from where does evil come?

Evil comes from the irrational stupidity of barely civilised monkeys.

So do gods.

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

No, instead, you target people who by their faith in Jesus Christ are striving to live lives of love, mercy, grace and goodness. You are by your very existence proving that God is true but every man a liar. Your refusal to repent of your sins and believe in the vast evidences of God in His creation and documented in the Bible and especially given to us through the life of His Son Jesus Christ, verifies what God says about mankind that they are estranged from the womb and do not seek God. There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.’ Jesus Christ has appeared to His people, but not to unbelievers. As an adult, I was turned from atheism to faith in Jesus Christ when He met me over 30 years ago. He saved me and gave me His salvation, hope, love, mercy and grace. I see Him answer prayer for me all of the time. Of course, I would never expect an unbeliever to acknowledge what I know to be true. Just because you attack Jesus Christ and those who have placed their faith in Him and His death on the cross for their sins, and His resurrection from the dead, doesn’t cut you off from the ability of God to save you. I was once like you, and God in His infinite mercy and grace saved me from damnation in hell for rebelling against Him and His holiness, and instead forgave me and has given me eternal life. “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God.”

How would you "feel" about this preaching if someone was doing the same thing to you, but with another god?

No, instead, you target people who by their faith in Hercules are striving to live lives of love, mercy, grace and goodness. You are by your very existence proving that Zeus is true but every man a liar. Your refusal to repent of your sins and believe in the vast evidences of Zeus in His creation and documented in Holy Scriptural and especially given to us through the life of His Son Hercules, verifies what Zeus says about mankind that they are estranged from the womb and do not seek Zeus. There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after Zeus. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.’ Hercules has appeared to His people, but not to unbelievers. As an adult, I was turned from atheism to faith in Hercules when He met me over 30 years ago. He saved me and gave me His salvation, hope, love, mercy and grace. I see Him answer prayer for me all of the time. Of course, I would never expect an unbeliever to acknowledge what I know to be true. Just because you attack Hercules and those who have placed their faith in Him and His death on the cross for their sins, and His resurrection from the dead, doesn’t cut you off from the ability of Zeus to save you. I was once like you, and Zeus in His infinite mercy and grace saved me from damnation in hell for rebelling against Him and His holiness, and instead forgave me and has given me eternal life. “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of Zeus is greater; for this is the witness of Zeus which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of Zeus has the witness in himself; he who does not believe Zeus has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that Zeus has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that Zeus has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of Zeus does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of Zeus, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of Zeus.”

Do you see this as "touching" your heart, or just a bunch of preaching?

Also, stop capitalizing "Son" "His" and "Him". "Son" and "His"are not pronouns, and "Him" is only a pronoun when you're talking about that guy from The Powerpuff Girls.

Hello,I just watched your video and I found it very impotent in giving an authentic reason for the nonexistence of God. First, it is interesting that of all the religions that express a faith in God, you chose to attack Christianity. Why not attack the Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, New Age faiths. They all purport a belief in a Supreme Being, although the New Agers believe they are god. If you want to expose something as irrational why don't you expose the irrationality of the New Age faith which, by the way, is growing by leaps and bounds. I would think you would find that particular delusion especially repugnant. Secondly, how do you know that an amputee has never had a regenerated limb? Have you spoken with and investigated all the cases of people who have amputated limbs and whether or not God healed them? There are over 6 billion people in the world, and there have been many cases of amputation in the history of the world and are you saying that you know unequivocally that God never regenerated any of those limbs? You are, because of this lack of knowledge, coming to the whole question with an a priori mindset. In the gospels there are many references to Jesus healing the maimed, those missing limbs. The rest of your arguments are extremely specious and show that you have no knowledge or understanding of God, the Scriptures, or mankind. You attribute to God the failings of people when talking about starving children. “Much food is in the fallow ground of the poor, And for lack of justice there is waste.” If your world is so great without God then why is there brutality, slavery, sexual exploitation and sexual slavery, murder, defamation of character, injustice, war, gossip, sexual perversion, hatred, arrogance, stupidity, mass murder, oppression, exploitation, duplicity, jealousy, greed, envy, rebellion, thievery, etc. Why aren’t you and your kind making the necessary changes to deal with all of these curses of mankind. No, instead, you target people who by their faith in Jesus Christ are striving to live lives of love, mercy, grace and goodness. You are by your very existence proving that God is true but every man a liar. Your refusal to repent of your sins and believe in the vast evidences of God in His creation and documented in the Bible and especially given to us through the life of His Son Jesus Christ, verifies what God says about mankind that they are estranged from the womb and do not seek God. There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.’ Jesus Christ has appeared to His people, but not to unbelievers. As an adult, I was turned from atheism to faith in Jesus Christ when He met me over 30 years ago. He saved me and gave me His salvation, hope, love, mercy and grace. I see Him answer prayer for me all of the time. Of course, I would never expect an unbeliever to acknowledge what I know to be true. Just because you attack Jesus Christ and those who have placed their faith in Him and His death on the cross for their sins, and His resurrection from the dead, doesn’t cut you off from the ability of God to save you. I was once like you, and God in His infinite mercy and grace saved me from damnation in hell for rebelling against Him and His holiness, and instead forgave me and has given me eternal life. “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God.”Oh, by the way, you testify that your lack of belief in God hasn’t made you superior, since your divorce rate is the same as those who attend church. Therefore, lying about God’s existence wouldn’t really make me any better in that regard at all. I know that by God’s mercy and grace, my husband and I have been committed to our covenant before God for the past 35 years. I am college educated with a master’s in chemistry. Your spurious arguments are no match for the power of God in the life of a believer and fall to the ground empty and beaten. It could be that God will save even you.[name removed]

We always get the most venomous rants from women, don't we?

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I am college educated with a master’s in chemistry.

Maybe you should start working on a substance that makes New Ager's become less arrogant. Test it on yourself, first.

Since you are a scientist, do you find the lack of evidence for God in the least bit disheartening? It would seem that either God made a concerted effort to create the world in a way that makes it look like it all could have happened naturally, or he does not exist.

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"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

Uh... Read your Bible lately? There are innumerable examples of brutality, slavery, sexual exploitation and all the rest.

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I was once like you...

You, Madam, were never like Me. I write better than you, I don't call people liars for not believing in My invisible friends, and I don't debase My morality by accepting proxy human sacrifices or worshipping torturer-gods.

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It could be that God will save even you.

I think it considerably more likely (0.999... probability) that your god exists only in your imagination; that eternal life is a myth; and that no one has ever been, or can be, 'saved.' To Me, your religion-contaminated life is a tragedy of unspeakable proportions, and I can't think of a single reason that I would ever want to become like you.

Why not attack the Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, New Age faiths. They all purport a belief in a Supreme Being, although the New Agers believe they are god.

One, watch WWGHA again, it does extend to the Jewish or Moslem faiths rather easily.

Two: New Agers...at least the ones I've met, don't think they are God and they aren't likely to impact my life through legislation or violence. So as they are nothing but a nusance, I don't spend a whole lot of time talking about them, but do on occasion.

Furthermore, through all this preaching there's no answer to the question of WWGHA, you are just pulling a big old red herring.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

God says Christians are blessed by persecution – we are trying to be kind to you.

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Have you spoken with and investigated all the cases of people who have amputated limbs and whether or not God healed them?

All our members scour the internet and all news stations every day for a sign that God has healed an amputee. Others do deep research in libraries looking for evidence to pre-date the internet. We have asked Christians if they have ever heard of an amputee being healed by God… they haven’t.

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There are over 6 billion people in the world, and there have been many cases of amputation in the history of the world and are you saying that you know unequivocally that God never regenerated any of those limbs?

Absolutely! Yes That is exactly what we say!

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In the gospels there are many references to Jesus healing the maimed, those missing limbs.

God hates liars. He really does:Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You have just condemned your eternal soul to endless torture at the hands of Satan and his minions. You have lied, but worse! You have lied about God! That, son, is blasphemy!

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You attribute to God the failings of people when talking about starving children. “Much food is in the fallow ground of the poor, And for lack of justice there is waste.”

You’ve got a point there… remember Christ in the Wilderness, when the Devil offered food for the poor, and Jesus turned it down – God’s not bothered about the poor and starving is He?

Even Jesus said, “The poor are always with us.” – so we may as well give up on them. Obviously Jesus knows that nothing we can do will change that. If we did change that, we’d be proving Jesus wrong, wouldn’t we?

If your world is so great without God then why is there brutality, slavery, sexual exploitation and sexual slavery, murder, defamation of character, injustice, war, gossip, sexual perversion, hatred, arrogance, stupidity, mass murder, oppression, exploitation, duplicity, jealousy, greed, envy, rebellion, thievery, etc. Why aren’t you and your kind making the necessary changes to deal with all of these curses of mankind.

May I draw your attention to the obvious flaw in your reasoning here? This world you describe so scathingly? It's the same one you live in, with the same problems you describe. So this world without god that you describe is exactly the same as YOUR world WITH god.

I spend a great deal of my time working on ways to solve these problems. And I spend none of it pointing fingers at other people demanding that they fix it my way.

If your world is so great without God then why is there brutality, slavery, sexual exploitation and sexual slavery, murder, defamation of character, injustice, war, gossip, sexual perversion, hatred, arrogance, stupidity, mass murder, oppression, exploitation, duplicity, jealousy, greed, envy, rebellion, thievery, etc. Why aren’t you and your kind making the necessary changes to deal with all of these curses of mankind.

May I draw your attention to the obvious flaw in your reasoning here? This world you describe so scathingly? It's the same one you live in, with the same problems you describe. So this world without god that you describe is exactly the same as YOUR world WITH god.

I spend a great deal of my time working on ways to solve these problems. And I spend none of it pointing fingers at other people demanding that they fix it my way.

Excellent point. These things get so repetitive, we can't be expected to reply all of it every time!

But yeah, the FAIL in this snippet is spectacular indeed. And I have an answer:

Follower of Jesus Christ

The point of declaring the evil that we have in the world is to show that people do evil things, period. If you think it is religion that causes people to do evil things then you are woefully ignorant. Obviously, wickedness oppresses all people regardless of their origins, government, intellect, upbringing, economic status, gender, or religious affiliation. One individual intelligently declared that the only way to get rid of bad people is to kill them all and then the executioner would also be bad. I guess that was a clever way to impugn the character of God? You can rail against God and those who follow Him, but you can't do anything to make a difference in this world. It is always going to be wayward. People are always going to do evil things against others. Atheists have no answers or help! They fail to recognize the problem which is the human condition. We are all sinners who have collectively turned our backs on God and gone our own way doing whatever we please, and unfortunately it is the evil that pleases. Attacks on God, His Word and His Son are not making a better world. Atheists naively think that somehow they can be good, but what is the standard? I'm sure it is low. What about when you break your own standard? I am sure there are ample ways to rationalize your behavior and/or blame others. The fool has said in his heart there is no God. Fools don't have answers to our problems or any way to change the course of human nature. If you don't like this description, well, it is what God has said, not me, I'm just quoting Him. You will have to answer to God whether you like it or not. You will have to give an account of yourself to Him, and He isn't pleased with you or fooled by your blathering blither. He is your Creator whether you like it or not. He is your Judge, whether you like it or not. If you reject His solution to your problem, your sin, and God's wrath that now lies upon you because of that sin, and your sure judgment in hell, then you will experience eternal damnation. That is reality. I could do all of the intellectual reasoning that is so common, but that isn't what God uses to save sinners, He uses the preaching of the Gospel of His Son Jesus Christ. So, Jesus Christ died on the cross being the propitiation for your sins and He arose from the dead for your justification if you will repent and believe the Gospel. Jesus Christ, God the Son, offers you forgiveness of sins and eternal life. If you die without trusting Him it will be too late. Repent and believe the Gospel. Read the Bible and see the amazing cohesiveness throughout the Word of God, but especially read the Gospel of John to see the wonder of Jesus Christ. Then read the book of Romans to see the wonderful provision of salvation that God has given us through His Son. It may be that God in His mercy and grace will save even you.

^ First off, welcome to the forum Follower. I disagree with a big hunk of what you claim in your post, but this isn't the time for that. I hope you hang around for a while and engage in some good discussions with us.

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"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

God has taught you a lot of things, but not about paragraphs. So here's just a tiny hint. Rants are easier to read in smaller pieces. Here, I'll give you an example.

Since some of us were short to you, I don't blame you for going postal on us. I disagree with everything you say, but hey, we can't all be the smartest person on the planet.

You make a lot of assumptions, but I'm guessing belief sort of limits your ability, or more likely, your willingness, to look outside the box. We atheists tend not to be quite as terrible as you think. In fact, with one or two exceptions, we're not terrible at all. And when we rant against your god, that is in jest, since he doesn't exist. Now we rant against believers from time to time. You know, like at least once a minute. But not as individuals (not counting the Westboro crowd) but as followers. I certainly know and am friends with my share of very christian people who are good to the core. They're just way off base in the belief department and some of them can get a little charged up over the suggestion that they might be wrong.

Our differences are to be expected. You've chosen the expertise of some church or variation thereof, we've chosen the expertise of science and research and learning and openness and exploration. Oh, and modesty. We've got lots of modesty. So obviously, given the divide between the two schools (I'd say "two schools of thought" but it doesn't apply in both cases) is bound to create a bit of tension, and at times words such as yours and mine and the others will be exchanged.

Now the average theist who shows up here and starts talking like a preacher is usually shocked to find out that the magic words that so effect him or her don't seem to be able to touch us. They are often agast at our immunity to the words that believers think are the most effective. Sin, hell, evil,damnation, making striped goats by having the parents mate in front of a striped stick. All just whoosh right over our head. Because the bad and the mysterious that believers see looks very different to us.

Is there a bunch of bad crap happening in the world? You bet. Some natural, some human, some just plain freaky. But we aren't quite as perplexed as believers are about the causes. Storms are caused by weather extremes, not a gay-angered lord. Earthquakes by plate techtonics. Tornados by why in the fuck wouldn't you want to get out of Okahoma real fast. So the natural stuff is just plain natural, something that is no more confusing than which way to screw in a lightbulb. You just have to think about it for a few seconds and presto, it makes sense.

The human stuff? The bad kind. The kind that results in injured or dead or psychological scarring or new paranoias or at least distrust can be chalked up to a variety of causes. Carelessness, indifference, anger, hate, power-tripping, selfishness, greed, lust and/or a bad case of gas. Some of these causes are so common that they were even mentioned in the bible. They've been around for tens of thousands of years (by the way, if you do decide to stick around for a while, a quick summary of your version of your religion would be appreciated. Are you from a specific denomination or sect. Is the bible literal? Is the earth only 6-10,000 years old? Let us know what you believe in areas like that so we don't jump to silly conclusions based on our generic view of your faith.) Anyway, that which you label "evil" stems from a complex and evolved biological creature existing in a complex social situations and with complex pressures and complex influences and complex TV remotes. To think you can get consistency, agreement, cooperation and universally accepted rules and regulations from a large population of any human group, let alone all of us, is ridiculously naïve. And the more you try to fit all varieties of humans into one box, the less chance you have of success.

Think of all the gods you do not believe in. There are thousands. We are so close to agreeing that we're only one god away from complete consensus. But I can assure you, even if there were a god, and he were standing here on this planet, thousands of feet high and real angry, not everyone would follow his rules because we are a stubbon lot. Drop the existence of a god, add deliberate disenfranchisement, disinterest, jingoism, racism, dictators, street gangs, bad cops, people who like Honey BooBoo and/or Donald Trump, and you end up with exactly what we have.

Fixing it can't be done by pretending we have the answers. Fixing it can't be done by proclaiming some variation of one specific religion that, to date, hasn't done anyone any actual good unless you count feeling good. And even that is an illusion. So before you decide to jam your beliefs down our throat, make sure it matches with reality and has more to offer than catch phrases and collection plates. You've had 2,000 years to change the world and now that it actually is (changing, that is), you want to stop it. Just because you're not getting your way.

You may not have played cops and robbers as a kid, being as you are female. But I'm pretty sure the boys in your neighborhood ran around pointing a couple of fingers at each other and going "pew, pew, pew" as they pretended to shoot. Some pretending success, others pretending to die.

As it happens, that is christianity in a nutshell. Which is why we're not impressed.

(See, I used paragraphs. Gods gift to eyeballs! Keep that in mind should you have more to say. Ain't they beautiful?)

You will have to answer to God whether you like it or not. You will have to give an account of yourself to Him, and He isn't pleased with you or fooled by your blathering blither. He is your Creator whether you like it or not. He is your Judge, whether you like it or not.

Unsupported assertions: No evidence for entity "God."

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If you reject His solution to your problem, your sin, and God's wrath that now lies upon you because of that sin, and your sure judgment in hell, then you will experience eternal damnation. That is reality.

Follower, you have a very odd perspective on the word "reality." I normally associate the word with things that conform with phenomena in the real world, not fearmongering blather from a book full of mythological rubbish.

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So, Jesus Christ died on the cross being the propitiation for your sins...

I do not consent to anyone dying in My place for any reason.

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Jesus Christ, God the Son, offers you forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

I have no interest in eternal life. Oh, and there's one sin that supposedly cannot be forgiven:

In response to the poster known as "Follower of Jesus Christ," I hereby declare that I see no difference between the works of the alleged "Holy Spirit" and the works of the alleges "Satan." They are both mythological sock puppets used by a vicious-minded and intolerant Middle Eastern deity who values human blood and subservience above good works,

There... One official, public slander of the Holy Spirit. *That* should make Me un-saveable.

The point of declaring the evil that we have in the world is to show that people do evil things, period.

And who gets to determine what "evil" is? If evil exists, Biblegod is the definition of it. Murdering millions, perhaps more, for what? Killing the first born? For what? Telling the Hebrews it's okay to rape, murder, enslave people because they are on their land, that it gave to them. Why? These are not peaceful things, nor loving things. By definition: they are "evil". By definition: Biblegod is "evil".

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If you think it is religion that causes people to do evil things then you are woefully ignorant.

You are right. A "thing" can't make anyone do anything. So, I guess when religious people do "evil" things, it's because they want to, and they use their god, and religion as the excuse.

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Obviously, wickedness oppresses all people regardless of their origins, government, intellect, upbringing, economic status, gender, or religious affiliation. One individual intelligently declared that the only way to get rid of bad people is to kill them all and then the executioner would also be bad. I guess that was a clever way to impugn the character of God? You can rail against God and those who follow Him, but you can't do anything to make a difference in this world. It is always going to be wayward. People are always going to do evil things against others. Atheists have no answers or help!

Oh, but the religious do? The religions such as Christianity that tells you to kill someone for working on the Sabbath? Moses ordered the death of a man for picking up wood to keep warm at night. But, you must be right: atheists don't have the answers, it's not like they have scripture telling who gets to live or die for the most minuscule of things.

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They fail to recognize the problem which is the human condition. We are all sinners who have collectively turned our backs on God and gone our own way doing whatever we please, and unfortunately it is the evil that pleases. Attacks on God, His Word and His Son are not making a better world. Atheists naively think that somehow they can be good, but what is the standard? I'm sure it is low. What about when you break your own standard? I am sure there are ample ways to rationalize your behavior and/or blame others.

I don't follow a book that tells me if I don't accept Biblegod's son as my Lord and Saviour, I will burn in hell. I don't stone people to death for working on the Sabbath. Or for being a homosexual, as the Bible says to do. I don't do many of the terrible things the Bible tells people to do, by Biblegod's law, because I don't have a book telling me. OH I MUST BE IMMORAL!

Please. Rhetoric.

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The fool has said in his heart there is no God. Fools don't have answers to our problems or any way to change the course of human nature. If you don't like this description, well, it is what God has said, not me, I'm just quoting Him. You will have to answer to God whether you like it or not.

No, because it doesn't exist. Unless you can provide non-biased evidence that it does?

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You will have to give an account of yourself to Him, and He isn't pleased with you or fooled by your blathering blither. He is your Creator whether you like it or not. He is your Judge, whether you like it or not. If you reject His solution to your problem, your sin, and God's wrath that now lies upon you because of that sin, and your sure judgment in hell, then you will experience eternal damnation.

See how you prove my point? Who's "evil" again?

Do "we" threaten you? No.

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That is reality

No, that's delusion.

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I could do all of the intellectual reasoning that is so common,

Doubtful. You have yet shown any.

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...but that isn't what God uses to save sinners, He uses the preaching of the Gospel of His Son Jesus Christ. So, Jesus Christ died on the cross being the propitiation for your sins and He arose from the dead for your justification if you will repent and believe the Gospel. Jesus Christ, God the Son, offers you forgiveness of sins and eternal life. If you die without trusting Him it will be too late. Repent and believe the Gospel. Read the Bible and see the amazing cohesiveness throughout the Word of God, but especially read the Gospel of John to see the wonder of Jesus Christ. Then read the book of Romans to see the wonderful provision of salvation that God has given us through His Son. It may be that God in His mercy and grace will save even you.

The rest of this is just preaching. And nonsense.

-Nam

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Things I've said here:

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I only have a filter for people who do not consistently beg to be belittled, ridiculed, insulted, and demeaned.

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I may believe people, as a whole, should be treated fairly but I also believe those same people are idiots.

By the way, religion is one of the most reliable ways to convince people to do evil things based on good intentions. Take any religious war, for example. Or the Inquisition. Or any religious witch trial ever. All of those horrific evils were done by people believing they were acting for some greater good. There's no doubt that there would have been evil things done had nobody ever invented the concept of a god to begin with. However, religion makes it possible for a few individuals to direct many believers; given human nature and the tendency of those who should be least trusted to seek power over others, it is no surprise at all that we've ended up with some truly horrifying atrocities which used religious belief as a lure.

I also firmly disagree with your supposition that the world will always be like it is (and thus religion is the only way to 'beat' the system). I'm sure peasants from medieval Europe said exactly the same thing to each other, but so much has changed in those few hundred years that it belies that belief.

The point of declaring the evil that we have in the world is to show that people do evil things, period.

But why blame man? If your kettle electrocutes you, do you blame the kettle or the maker of the kettle?

Who created Satan? God.

Who creates evil? Let's have a look at KJV1611:

Deut. 32:39: See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.

2 Chron. 15:13: That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Jer:18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Num:31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

So now we know why people do evil things, for all things are of God.

On another topic, you say you are a Chemist...

(i) How many papers have you published that cite God as an authority?(ii) When you did your research, how often did God alter the laws of physics? How did you allow for this in your research?(iii) Do you accept that energy cannot be created of destroyed and that the universe is a closed system?(iv) God, any god, is that which we cannot explain - once we explain a mystery, there is no longer a god behind it. Over the past 200 years gods have been retreating. God is ignorance.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

The point of declaring the evil that we have in the world is to show that people do evil things, period.

Um, I do believe that this is the point almost every response made. So, what's your point? We agree that the problem is people, right?

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If you think it is religion that causes people to do evil things then you are woefully ignorant. Obviously, wickedness oppresses all people regardless of their origins, government, intellect, upbringing, economic status, gender, or religious affiliation.

You speak of evil as though it's a tangible, living thing. I don't even remotely know how to respond to that.

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You can rail against God and those who follow Him, but you can't do anything to make a difference in this world. It is always going to be wayward. People are always going to do evil things against others.

That doesn't mean we have no obligation to try to make a better world for everyone, even people we disagree with. Small victories in improving life for even a single person is worth my time. Do you agree?

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Atheists have no answers or help! They fail to recognize the problem which is the human condition.

Bullsh!t. I believe I see the problem far more clearly than you do. And I'm even willing to speak on behalf of the other members of this forum, and state that most of us do.

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We are all sinners who have collectively turned our backs on God and gone our own way doing whatever we please, and unfortunately it is the evil that pleases. Attacks on God, His Word and His Son are not making a better world.

How do you know that? I'm not a sinner that has turned my back on god, I'm a decent human being that is working hard at being the best parent, partner, friend, co-worker, employee, student, volunteer, and person that I can be. And I don't need you god or any other to do that.

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Atheists naively think that somehow they can be good, but what is the standard? I'm sure it is low.

Your ignorance is showing. You accuse atheists of being naive, and make blanket assessments of our characters as though we are a single homogenous group that marches in lockstep on every issue. You have no idea what MY standards are, and you have no idea who I am, or what I stand for, other than the one isolated fact that I don't believe in god(s). Do you truly think you can determine everything there is to know about me based on that? Read what you wrote, and pause to consider who is being naive here.

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What about when you break your own standard? I am sure there are ample ways to rationalize your behavior and/or blame others.

Again with the judgements! When I fail to live up to my expectations of myself, I'm disappointed and determined to do better next time. What does this have to do with anything? Just you taking a jab at people you don't know and impugning their character for fun? I would think that you, as an apparently practicing christian, shouldn't need an atheist to remind you of the instruction from Jesus to "judge not, lest ye be judged." They're your rules, so I, quite reasonably, expect you to follow them.

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The fool has said in his heart there is no God. Fools don't have answers to our problems or any way to change the course of human nature. If you don't like this description, well, it is what God has said, not me, I'm just quoting Him.

No worries, we won't hold you accountable for things god said. Well, unless you agree with them, and try to insist that we have to as well. Then you can absolutely expect to be held accountable for them. Quote away, this could be fun!

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You will have to answer to God whether you like it or not. You will have to give an account of yourself to Him, and He isn't pleased with you or fooled by your blathering blither. He is your Creator whether you like it or not. He is your Judge, whether you like it or not.

No I won't. No, I won't and how would you know anyway - if your god existed, what makes you so sure he wouldn't think I'm the shit? No, he's really not. And nope, not so.

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If you reject His solution to your problem, your sin, and God's wrath that now lies upon you because of that sin, and your sure judgment in hell, then you will experience eternal damnation.

What solution is he offering? That I get a full frontal lobotomy so I can believe in and worship him? No thanks. I prefer my reality real.

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That is reality.

Nope, that's an opinion. You're not going to last long here if you don't know the difference.

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I could do all of the intellectual reasoning that is so common,

Thanks for sparing us from that. Really. Your grasp of the nature of the world we live in is tenuous at best. I'm not sure that I could have gotten through your idea of an intellectually reasonable refutation. And I actually think you're lying (that's a sin, by the way) - I don't think you are capable of the intellectual reasoning of which you speak.

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but that isn't what God uses to save sinners, He uses the preaching of the Gospel of His Son Jesus Christ. So, Jesus Christ died on the cross being the propitiation for your sins and He arose from the dead for your justification if you will repent and believe the Gospel. Jesus Christ, God the Son, offers you forgiveness of sins and eternal life. If you die without trusting Him it will be too late. Repent and believe the Gospel. Read the Bible and see the amazing cohesiveness throughout the Word of God, but especially read the Gospel of John to see the wonder of Jesus Christ. Then read the book of Romans to see the wonderful provision of salvation that God has given us through His Son. It may be that God in His mercy and grace will save even you.

Prove that any of what you say here will have an impact on me after I die, and we can continue this discussion. Until you do, there's not much to talk about, is there?

Edited for grammar error

« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 01:00:28 PM by Jag »

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

Hello,I just watched your video and I found it very impotent in giving an authentic reason for the nonexistence of God. First, it is interesting that of all the religions that express a faith in God, you chose to attack Christianity. Why not attack the Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, New Age faiths.

You know, I'm not really sure, but I think it has to do with the 30 to 1 ratio of observable places of Christian worship to those of any other religion, the 70 to 1 ratio of bookstores touting the "final coming of the lord" compared to those selling Mayan cuckoo clocks ...

But more to the point, why do you think Christianity should be spared the same analysis as the other religions you stated? One of which is the father of Christianity and the other is a bastard stepchild?

They all purport a belief in a Supreme Being, although the New Agers believe they are god. If you want to expose something as irrational why don't you expose the irrationality of the New Age faith which, by the way, is growing by leaps and bounds. I would think you would find that particular delusion especially repugnant.

There is a kind of delusion that is less repugnant? Why do you have a beef with New Age philosophy? Are they encroaching on your money stream?

Secondly, how do you know that an amputee has never had a regenerated limb?

How do you know an atheist has never been POTUS? How do you know that I haven't had sex with a pink unicorn? How do you know that I am not Jesus Christ speaking to the masses about how my followers have adulterated the very words I spoke?

Have you spoken with and investigated all the cases of people who have amputated limbs and whether or not God healed them? There are over 6 billion people in the world, and there have been many cases of amputation in the history of the world and are you saying that you know unequivocally that God never regenerated any of those limbs?

Have you?

What if these people were flown to Kolob, healed and then returned to earth?

What if aliens from Andromeda used a magic wand to heal ONLY the amputees?

In the gospels there are many references to Jesus healing the maimed, those missing limbs. The rest of your arguments are extremely specious and show that you have no knowledge or understanding of God, the Scriptures, or mankind.

You attribute to God the failings of people when talking about starving children. “Much food is in the fallow ground of the poor, And for lack of justice there is waste.” If your world is so great without God then why is there brutality, slavery, sexual exploitation and sexual slavery, murder, defamation of character, injustice, war, gossip, sexual perversion, hatred, arrogance, stupidity, mass murder, oppression, exploitation, duplicity, jealousy, greed, envy, rebellion, thievery, etc.

Why aren’t you and your kind making the necessary changes to deal with all of these curses of mankind.

Because your kind specifically doesn't, never has and never will. You would rather keep all the poxes of society in place so that you can mentally and physically abuse people with your nonsensical malarky. Without the poxes, you have nothing.

No, instead, you target people who by their faith in Jesus Christ are striving to live lives of love, mercy, grace and goodness. You are by your very existence proving that God is true but every man a liar.

Thank you for the final descent into madness. Do you own more than 3 guns?

Have a Merry Father-Myself-As-My-Son Day!

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John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Oh, by the way, you testify that your lack of belief in God hasn’t made you superior, since your divorce rate is the same as those who attend church. ..... I know that by God’s mercy and grace, my husband and I have been committed to our covenant before God for the past 35 years.

How peculiar - so you think that because ONE couple has not got divorced, that makes all the statistics wrong?

Interesting. Now what would be the point of that then? If he saves me, does that not mean (by your standards) that I will have led a more fun and free life - and yet we will both ultimately be saved? Sounds like I win, if that's the case. Thanks for the tip!

But not clever enough to understand what the "Enter" key does. Tricky things, these "paragraphs".

Yes, must have been quite the compact Masters Theisis

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Excellent Not too dissimilar to me - biochemistry and genetics Has it ever bothered you that something as important, true, and useful as the periodic table or the genetic code wasn't "leaked" in any biblical prophecies?