d-mar:
I know I’ve been on a bit of a David Lee love fest lately, but last night vs. Dallas: 15 points, 20 rebounds (7 offensive) 9 assists. Wow.

I know, everyone’s been high on Amar’e the past few days, but can you imagine how amazing a Melo/Lee/Chandler frontcourt would look? Of course, Melo and Chandler wouldn’t have come to New York to play with David Lee, so there’s that.

I want to say I expect a win tonight, but I don’t. It’s a Friday night game, which they reliably phone in, against a team they never take seriously enough. Jennings lives to shit on the Knicks and is probably pissed he didn’t make the all-star team, and the rest of the team is made up of just the kind of role players who seem to always go off against us, like Mike Dunleavy Jr. and Ilyasova. Hopefully I’m proven wrong, but their backcourt seems tailor made to eat Felton’s lunch.

flossy: I know, everyone’s been high on Amar’e the past few days, but can you imagine how amazing a Melo/Lee/Chandler frontcourt would look? Of course, Melo and Chandler wouldn’t have come to New York to play with David Lee, so there’s that.

This is not to say I’m not thrilled with Amar’e’s progress btw. I love Amar’e.

Tyson Chandler would have come to play with David Lee, I think. He was going to Golden State before the Knicks came in and made an offer. Can you imagine how different the team would be if we drafted Stephen Curry and kept David Lee?

massive:
Tyson Chandler would have come to play with David Lee, I think. He was going to Golden State before the Knicks came in and made an offer. Can you imagine how different the team would be if we drafted Stephen Curry and kept David Lee?

So you think Carmelo’s trying to get traded to the Knicks if Lee is the other star on the team? Maybe I’m wrong and he really just wanted to be a Knick, but I’d imagine that Amar’e being a beast and having us in the bottom half of the playoff picture probably had an impact on his decision.

Sorry my point was that I think Melo and Amare’s presence probably influenced Tyson’s decision to come here.

I still remember when GSW drafted Curry. I really wanted to book a flight to Oakland and pay Don Nelson a visit. Before the draft I remember there being a lot of speculation about us looking at Rubio, Holiday, Flynn, and Curry. I remember reading A quote from Walsh after the draft where he said something like everybody was high on Flynn and Rubio especially, but when they had everybody in for workouts Curry just killed everybody.

flossy: I know, everyone’s been high on Amar’e the past few days, but can you imagine how amazing a Melo/Lee/Chandler frontcourt would look?Of course, Melo and Chandler wouldn’t have come to New York to play with David Lee, so there’s that.

I want to say I expect a win tonight, but I don’t.It’s a Friday night game, which they reliably phone in, against a team they never take seriously enough.Jennings lives to shit on the Knicks and is probably pissed he didn’t make the all-star team, and the rest of the team is made up of just the kind of role players who seem to always go off against us, like Mike Dunleavy Jr. and Ilyasova.Hopefully I’m proven wrong, but their backcourt seems tailor made to eat Felton’s lunch.

Man, I really hope you’re wrong about the game. My friend and I went to last year’s debacle where Jennings was strutting all over MSG and Carmelo got tossed. One of the worst games I have ever attended. The same friend and I are going back to the scene of the crime tonight, so I really do not want to see that garbage again.

lavor postell: So you think Carmelo’s trying to get traded to the Knicks if Lee is the other star on the team?Maybe I’m wrong and he really just wanted to be a Knick, but I’d imagine that Amar’e being a beast and having us in the bottom half of the playoff picture probably had an impact on his decision.

I firmly believe that Carmelo wanted to be traded to New York because it was primarily a competitive team, and secondly because it was a large market. I think he would have wanted to come here if the Knicks were a competitive team, and I believe they could have been just that with a healthy Stephen Curry and David Lee.

massive: I firmly believe that Carmelo wanted to be traded to New York because it was primarily a competitive team, and secondly because it was a large market. I think he would have wanted to come here if the Knicks were a competitive team, and I believe they could have been just that with a healthy Stephen Curry and David Lee.

But drafting Steph Curry was never an option, so if the Knicks had ended up with just Lee as an enticement for Melo, it would have meant they’d gone into the 2010 free agent bonanza hoping to land LeBron but having whiffed on *every* big free agent out there, and they’d still have been a lottery team. Can’t see Melo forcing a trade into that situation, so I think it’s fair to say no Stat, no Melo. Tyson said explicitly that he chose NYK because he wanted to play with the two of them, but we also offered him the most money, so who knows.

d-mar: Man, I really hope you’re wrong about the game. My friend and I went to last year’s debacle where Jennings was strutting all over MSG and Carmelo got tossed. One of the worst games I have ever attended. The same friend and I are going back to the scene of the crime tonight, so I really do not want to see that garbage again.

I hope I’m wrong too! This just seems like the perfect trap game storm.

We should have signed Lee to to a 5 year 40 million contract, something like that, back in 07-08.

I can see Lee’s deficiencies a little more clearly now than in his second year. But he is a gifted offensive player and not a worse defender than Amare. We could have had him at half the price. At worst he would have been a great trade chip.

I definitely think Chandler would have loved to play with Lee in New York. Think how many alley oops those two would have connected for…..

flossy: I know, everyone’s been high on Amar’e the past few days, but can you imagine how amazing a Melo/Lee/Chandler frontcourt would look? Of course, Melo and Chandler wouldn’t have come to New York to play with David Lee, so there’s that.

Melo didn’t come to NY because he wanted to play with Amare. He came to NY because it wasn’t toxic anymore…which was due to Amare (Walsh); if we kept Lee and had the same type of positive feeling back around the Knicks, he still would have wanted to come here. Then Chandler would have followed just as he did.

Eternal OptiKnist: if we kept Lee and had the same type of positive feeling back around the Knicks, he still would have wanted to come here.

I guess, but if we had kept Lee we wouldn’t have had a positive feeling. We’d be the team that sucked for 8 years, tanked for 2 years to clear cap space, and ended up with nothing more to show for it than David Lee, who was already on the team. Nobody forces a trade to get with that.

And if we hadn’t traded for Eddy Curry and if we had drafted Rondo instead of Balkman and if we hadn’t traded Zach Randolph and if we hadn’t traded Jamaal Crawford and if and if…
Bottom line — we will never know how things would have played out.

I didn’t open the comments section on this thread intending to start a discussion on whether we should have kept David Lee or not. I’m pretty happy where this team is right now. Let’s just be happy for a guy who was selected 30th in the draft, worked really hard to improve his jump shot and is now a bonafide All Star.

The only guy out of those 3 I’ll give any credit too for taking less money is Bosh. When you’re making as much as Lebron and Wade are making off the court it makes it a lot easier to sacrifice a paltry 2.5 mill a year or whatever the amount. Both Battier and Allen could have been added to the roster regardless of how much the Big Three signed for since they were both signed to cap exceptions. They essentially would have had to choose between signing Miller or keeping Haslem. Considering how average those 2 have been during the Big Three era minus Miller’s out of body Game 5 against OKC, they might have benefited from that.

flossy: I guess, but if we had kept Lee we wouldn’t have had a positive feeling. We’d be the team that sucked for 8 years, tanked for 2 years to clear cap space, and ended up with nothing more to show for it than David Lee, who was already on the team. Nobody forces a trade to get with that.

If we were successful, they’d line up. Melo isnt here to play ‘with’ anyone..he wants to be top dog on this team. If we had the same type of success we had the 1st half of 2010 with Lee (or colonel sanders, or the bic pen guy..you get the point) vs stat..he and any other free agents would be lining up. Its about winning or at the very least not being the type of embarrassment we were for 8 years..

His TS% and eFG%, Oreb% and dReb% are well below what they were in most Knicks years. He never blocks shots and doesn’t get to the line much. The only thing he is doing significantly better now is passing the ball, which makes sense since he now has good players around him. He’d be good value at $8 mill, not so much at $13 mill. I suppose if you factor in another $7 mill player, he’s better value than a healthy STAT, but whatever. I definitely can see rooting for that GS team, though. In fact, Denver, Houston and GS are all exciting young WC teams with likeable Knicks castoffs in major roles.

Will be an interesting test tonight for Amare — Bucks have all those pogo sticks in the middle – Sanders, Henson, and Dalembert. Especially Sanders, who allows a crazy 0.53 PPP on post-up possessions.

And btw, I guess those predraft doctors who raised red flags on Sullinger’s back were right – according to Woj, he’s out the rest of the year with back issues that will require surgery. Let the Celtics tanking begin!

I agree everyone understands Lebron is worth more than the max. Again, it’s interesting the estimate Lebron provided was almost the same as the one Berri provided.

As for whether he deserves credit, the only honest thing to say would be that winning a championship is worth a a huge multiple of what he gave up in lifetime earnings. He deserves credit for understanding that I suppose….

ruruland: Right, therefore, given that there are plenty of players clearly his inferior making his salary or more, you easily infer that he is worth well beyond the max salary without reading fucking Berri.

ruruland: Right, therefore, given that there are plenty of players clearly his inferior making his salary or more, you easily infer that he is worth well beyond the max salary without reading fucking Berri.

Rough day at CAA? Did you accidentally bring your boss a macchiato instead of a latte?

Reading Jordan’s yearly salaries on BBR and talk about being underpaid holy crap. Except for his final 2 seasons in Chicago he never made more than 4 mil in a season. Of course thanks to his endorsements he wasnt exactly starving for money.

Eternal OptiKnist: If we were successful, they’d line up. Melo isnt here to play ‘with’ anyone..he wants to be top dog on this team. If we had the same type of success we had the 1st half of 2010 with Lee (or colonel sanders, or the bic pen guy..you get the point) vs stat..he and any other free agents would be lining up. Its about winning or at the very least not being the type of embarrassment we were for 8 years..

Why would you expect the Knicks would have magically become a good team? They didn’t win anything with David Lee as their centerpiece. You think adding someone like Felton would have vaulted them into playoff contention? Remember, they’d have also been the laughingstock of the leaugue after having failed so hard to land any free agents. And if you think marquee players aren’t attracted to the prospect of playing alongside another big name (and whether you think Amar’e was a better player than Lee at the time, he was *definitely* a bigger star), you’re crazy.

flossy: Why would you expect the Knicks would have magically become a good team?They didn’t win anything with David Lee as their centerpiece.You think adding someone like Felton would have vaulted them into playoff contention?Remember, they’d have also been the laughingstock of the leaugue after having failed so hard to land any free agents.And if you think marquee players aren’t attracted to the prospect of playing alongside another big name (and whether you think Amar’e was a better player than Lee at the time, he was *definitely* a bigger star), you’re crazy.

This. Lee is a great supporting role player, who is capable of punishing a defense if they aren’t aware of him. He is not the kind good enough to lead a team to a playoff berth as its best player. If he is the centerpiece of your team, opponents will be content to play him straight up and allow Lee to get his, because he is not going to dominate you into submission. STAT in his prime then demanded significant attention and if he wasn’t accorded it he was fully capable of going off for 40+ and winning the game on his own.

lavor postell: This.Lee is a great supporting role player, who is capable of punishing a defense if they aren’t aware of him.He is not the kind good enough to lead a team to a playoff berth as its best player.If he is the centerpiece of your team, opponents will be content to play him straight up and allow Lee to get his, because he is not going to dominate you into submission.STAT in his prime then demanded significant attention and if he wasn’t accorded it he was fully capable of going off for 40+ and winning the game on his own.

We all know there are certain people in this thread who simply cannot wrap their minds around this distinction and like to hide behind these giant sample sizes that make it very difficult to prove on a player-by-player basis that there is a fundamental difference between a guy like Lee and a guy like Amar’e.

Naturally, there are very few players in the league like Amar’e in his prime, and while Lee was in many ways statistically similar, certainly more balanced overall as a passer, there’s clearly a substantial difference in top-end performance that opposing defenses are well aware of and do their best to control, which always results in improving the opportunities of the supporting cast.

There are probably 15-20 players around the league every year that have this kind of effect on teammates, rather, on opportunities in the offense should basic skill sets be present. Melo is one of those guys, and I think Amar’e can be one again as well.

Demarre Carroll, Antawn Jamison, Dorrell Wright, Maurice Harkless and P.J. Tucker have produced more wins than Carmelo Anthony this year.

Come on man, you know that’s not fair. Melo is ranked as a PF this year, so you really need to mention that he’s been out-produced by Jason Maxiell, Dante Cunningham, Tyler Hansborough, and Earl Clark.

What I don’t understand about devout WoW zealouts is how they can’t see, yes, with their untrustworthy human eyeballs, that there is an inherent and intrinsic value to volume shooters who can get hot and go off, simply because they create spacing on the floor that doesn’t necessarily exist without them. Monta Ellis is a pretty shitty shooter, but if you sag off him because he usually shoots 42%, you’re taking a pretty big gamble that he doesn’t catch fire and drop 35 on you because you were trying to play the percentages. Efficiency is great, but some low efficiency, high volume guys end up producing high percentage, high efficiency open looks for the other guys on the floor by simply existing as a threat to shoot at all times. So yes, they stink at hitting their own shots efficiently in many situations, but they can also, under the right circumstances, make the other guys much more efficient, and if you surround him with already efficient lower volume scorers, it makes the formula that much more potent. Look, Russell Westbrook is overrated a bit, sure, but there’s just no way Kevin Durant, Kevin Martin and James Harden absolutely kill it the way they do efficiency-wise without the threat of Westbrook hoisting it up from anywhere and going Human Torch through your entire defense. Until there is a metric that evaluates the spacing and shot quality produced by volume scorers, the WoW metrics will continue to be deeply flawed well beyond not accounting for individual defense or whatever else.

I mean, look at our own Knicks. The difference with Felton and without him is blatantly obvious, and the guy takes 17 shots a game at 40% and makes you want to poke your eyes out with a rusty cattle prod. But he’s still clearly valuable in the way he spaces the floor and threatens defenses with penetration or jump-shooting from anywhere on the floor. These are NBA players. I don’t care if it’s LeBron James or Ronnie Brewer; you simply can’t leave a guy wide open just because he’s not an efficient shooter.

When there were rumors of Carmelo Anthony coming to NY, Anthony said he liked David Lee’s and Galinari’s game. I believe he was coming here no matter what. It really made me sick hear the crap that was said about David Lee while he was here.

greatscott:
When there were rumors of Carmelo Anthony coming to NY, Anthony said he liked David Lee’s and Galinari’s game. I believe he was coming here no matter what. It really made me sick hear the crap that was said about David Lee while he was here.

Who the hell said crap about David Lee here?? We all loved him except for his atrocious defense but that was still often overlooked because of how good Lee became offensively. Still Lee’s first 2 seasons in Golden St were nowhere near as good as his seasons with the Knicks and there were alot of Golden St fans and reporters talking about what a horrible contract he has and talking about finding a way to trade him to get rid of that contract.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: I don’t understand how the whole “common sense” angle is supposed to make me reevaluate a statistical system.

Please at least admit that Brewer > Melo in wins produced is a mistake. Brewer’s done nothing except rebound the ball decently (though he’s been below average for a three) and not turn it over. He’s shot horribly despite being unguarded most of the time, refuses to even try to finish on cuts, and can’t even hit a free throw and yet he’s been more productive than a guy who has a well above average TS% and turnover rate on a staggering 34.4% usage? Why? Because Melo’s rebound rate is low for a PF? Is rebounding so vital that it’s better to have guy who would be better off standing in the backcourt on offense than a guy who is unquestionably the centerpiece of a top 3 offense?

BigBlueAL: Who the hell said crap about David Lee here??We all loved him except for his atrocious defense but that was still often overlooked because of how good Lee became offensively.Still Lee’s first 2 seasons in Golden St were nowhere near as good as his seasons with the Knicks and there were alot of Golden St fans and reporters talking about what a horrible contract he has and talking about finding a way to trade him to get rid of that contract.

Yeah, who hated on Lee?????

I wear his jersey still. And proudly. Was one of the few bright spots during a dark dark period of Knicks basketball.

Shump looks bad right now. Cant shoot, looks hesitant when driving to the hoop and defensively he seems to be confused on when to help or not. He is covering Ilyasova who is an excellent 3pt shooter and he has hit a couple of 3’s already thanks to Shump helping off of him for seemingly no reason.

BigBlueAL:
Shump looks bad right now.Cant shoot, looks hesitant when driving to the hoop and defensively he seems to be confused on when to help or not.He is covering Ilyasova who is an excellent 3pt shooter and he has hit a couple of 3?s already thanks to Shump helping off of him for seemingly no reason.

Knicks have won 3 in a row vs the Bucks?? I remember the win in Milwaukee earlier this season and the HUGE win in Milwaukee late last season. This is a tough matchup but I still think Knicks should win this game even after this poor start which as I mentioned isnt that surprising at all considering the defensive woes of the Knicks lately.

Is it time to scrap the starting line-up? Shump’s obviously not ready for big minutes yet and Kidd’s struggling with his shot (.327 from three this month). I think either JR or Stat should probably start- these slow starts are becoming a problem.

im not sure why skiles hated this team so much. i know coaching the jennings/ ellis duo could be a headache, but they have some impressive young, defensive minded players in the frontcourt. seems like skiles would have liked that

7 seconds difference in shot and game clock… why are we running time down so that melo is left to hoist or make a crazy pass with 7.5 seconds to go…JUST RUN THE OFFENSE AS NORMAL!!!! I hate it when we do this

Juany8:
When Chandler is playing this kind of defense, the Knicks can look pretty dominant

agreed. he plays such good d at times, but then looks as opponents stroll through the lanes at other times (usually in the first half). the only logical explanation is that he is under instructions from woody not to pick up too many early fouls

BigBlueAL:
Knicks have won 3 in a row vs the Bucks??I remember the win in Milwaukee earlier this season and the HUGE win in Milwaukee late last season.This is a tough matchup but I still think Knicks should win this game even after this poor start which as I mentioned isnt that surprising at all considering the defensive woes of the Knicks lately.

Great team effort defensively in the 2nd half. Shump showed he is still an amazing one-on-one defender. Just like last season though he still struggles big time when having to fight thru picks/screens. His offense in the 4th quarter was great to see, hopefully this is a confidence booster for him.

AnonymousODG: lol, how prescient of you, Jennings was awful in the 2nd half

Ellis and Jennings just started going one-on-one for virtually the entire 2nd half which is what I hoped for. Ellis was hot for a bit in the 3rd quarter but they were no longer getting open 3pters and layups like they did in the 1st half.

More evidence that Chandler and Amar’e will be fine playing together- they really dominated inside in the second half. Hopefully Amar’e can stay healthy because he’s just eating people up in the post- that last jump hook over Dalembert was a thing of beauty. Still too many minutes for Melo. Over 40 in 11 out of the last 15 games is just too much- especially when he’s had to go against some very physical defenders lately.

nicos:
More evidence that Chandler and Amar’e will be fine playing together- they really dominated inside in the second half.Hopefully Amar’e can stay healthy because he’s just eating people up in the post- that last jump hook over Dalembert was a thing of beauty.Still too many minutes for Melo.Over 40 in 11 out of the last 15 games is just too much- especially when he’s had to go against some very physical defenders lately.

I’m with Abbey and everyone. Chandler was sublime defensively. Those were contested rebounds. Back to beasting with smart help, too.

JR shot coming back some. Double digit win when the Knicks probably played half the game poorly and Melo having a bad night. That’s happened too often, but a sign of an elite team.

Best front court in the league, if the guards play smart with somewhat efficient shooting and effortful defense, the Knicks can hang with those top 4-5 teams in a playoff series.

Lee still lives rent free in your head. For someone who supposedly loved Lee you sure like to talk him down every chance you get. The first year Lee went down with the bite wound from Chandler. Before Lee went down they were 6-2 with a win over the Knicks and Lee outplayed Amare. The second year Curry went down and the team was a disaster. The Mark Berman media types and the internet fans are exactly what is wrong with basketball today.

It wasn’t you. The main stream media and other sites all hated on Lee. First it was Lee couldn’t fit into the Knicks system. Then when Lee fit it was only because of the system. I enjoyed basketball a lot more before the internet. What bothers me is the amount of negativity. The majority mostly keep quiet and the whiners have a field day. Some of the nastiest stuff was said in the comments on Hahn’s Knicks fix site.

greatscott: Lee still lives rent free in your head. For someone who supposedly loved Lee you sure like to talk him down every chance you get. The first year Lee went down with the bite wound from Chandler. Before Lee went down they were 6-2 with a win over the Knicks and Lee outplayed Amare. The second year Curry went down and the team was a disaster. The Mark Berman media types and the internet fans are exactly what is wrong with basketball today.

It wasn’t you. The main stream media and other sites all hated on Lee. First it was Lee couldn’t fit into the Knicks system. Then when Lee fit it was only because of the system. I enjoyed basketball a lot more before the internet. What bothers me is the amount of negativity. The majority mostly keep quiet and the whiners have a field day. Some of the nastiest stuff was said in the comments on Hahn’s Knicks fix site.