Wednesday, December 05, 2007

Here's a little number called Truth as performed by Dimentia 13 at the Phantasy Theater in Cleveland probably in 1992. The line-up was me on guitar and vocals, Joe Nofziger on bass and vocals, Dave Swanson of Rainy Day Saints and sometime member of Guided By Voices on drums and Carl Olsen on keyboards. I added a bunch of overdubs to this recording around 2000. Joe sings lead on this, though I usually took the vocal in Dimentia 13. That whole night he dedicated every song to Laura. I have no idea who Laura was. Maybe our friend Laura Rachel? The song is by Chris Cacavas and Junkyard Love. Joe taped it off the radio when he lived in Germany and we learned it from his crappy cassette. I finally found the original much later. Our version is better. Note the little tribute to The Pretenders at the very end. I love the lyrics to this one. Wish I wrote it...

Graham Barlow kindly pointed out that ads for Gempo Roshi's Big Scam, Big Mind® have been appearing on this site in the little ads Google puts there. At first I thought I'd complain. But actually it amuses me that a few pennies of the massive loads of dough that charlatan rakes in with his fucked up fake Zen nonsense is going to me. Thanks for the pennies Gempo, you useless piece of shit. Gimme a ride on your motorcycle sometime.

As I've said, anyone who goes for Big Mind® gets what they deserve. Think you can get instant Enlightenment for a hundred fifty smackers? Go for it. And those of you who harp on me for harping on it all the time, make sure Gempo pays you for that. OK?

Also, some dude posted: We imagine the ground of being must be far, far way, off in a distant galaxy or buried deep in some mystical place we can only reach with the proper sitting posture or via cultivating some proper state of mind under a properly transmitted zen teacher. Such beliefs are just as erroneous.

Sounds nice. But it's wishful thinking, I'm afraid. And if you think I'm saying that just to get you to come study with me, you think pretty highly of yourself. I got enough trouble as it is. Still, I'm not gonna bullshit you. Proper posture is a requirement. No two ways about it. Sorry.

125 comments:

:)We imagine the ground of being must be far, far way, off in a distant galaxy or buried deep in some mystical place we can only reach with the proper sitting posture or via cultivating some proper state of mind under a properly transmitted zen teacher. Such beliefs are just as erroneous): People like this are unbelievable! But this proves people see what they want to read.Go throw your proper state of mind crap out the door and get back to the basics and just sit man!

This might be the first guitar fanboy comment on the Hardcore Zen blog-- I'm totally charged! Mr Warner, that's some good chops on that track. Thanks for posting the mp3, dude!Except now I know there's a bass player out there who does a way better job controlling guitar tone than most of us axemen & axewomen. (When you've got distortion & reverb going, it's really hard to dial in a sound that sounds cool for the solo but also works during the verses. Maybe it's the middle way. Or maybe it's just my amp.)

Back in the day, Buddhist teachers that vehemently disagreed would settle their differences in debate. This would put the issue to rest, and everybody would learn something in true Buddhist style. There's nothing I'd like more to see a debate between you and the infamous Genpo. I'm sure I speak for lots and lots of people when I say so. Now, I'm fairly sure you'll reject the suggestion out of hand (maybe you'll say "I'd do it but that asswipe Genpo wouldn't," which is the same thing as rejecting it out of hand) -- but I am compelled to make the suggestion anyway. C'mon, Brad. Stop bitching in your blog and do something about it!

Really gotta have the right posture eh? No one can experience ground of being without it? But what did they do way way back when before it was known and taught? Did no one experience ground of being until someone accidently sat in the posture? Are you positive that no one on the entire Earth ever experienced it without sitting in the posture?

"Really gotta have the right posture eh? No one can experience ground of being without it? But what did they do way way back when before it was known and taught? Did no one experience ground of being until someone accidently sat in the posture? Are you positive that no one on the entire Earth ever experienced it without sitting in the posture?"

"Really gotta have the right posture eh? No one can experience ground of being without it? But what did they do way way back when before it was known and taught? Did no one experience ground of being until someone accidently sat in the posture? Are you positive that no one on the entire Earth ever experienced it without sitting in the posture?"

Translation: I'm too lazy to sit like that therefore there must be an easier way.

Back in first grade, when I was taught how to write, the first thing I was taught was how to hold the pencil. It wasn't natural and it didn't come easy at first. But my teacher insisted. I suppose there are other "more creative" ways to hold a pencil, but one way works best.

Go ahead and do what you want. But don't come around here and whine about it.

"Did no one experience ground of being until someone accidently sat in the posture? Are you positive that no one on the entire Earth ever experienced it without sitting in the posture?"

No doubt if Brad zipped back to Guatama's day and noticed him sitting with his palms on his knees or eyes shut or legs crossed improperly he'd insist he wasn't sitting properly and could never experience enlightenment. Funny, lots of people think zen is free of dogma. Strange that the Buddha himself didn't place such a strong emphasis on the whole posture question. Seems he would have devoted at least a sutra to it if it were so vital. Instead he wasted all his breath talking about the 4 noble truths and 8 fold path. Anyone believing that such dogmatic views of posture are at the heart of zen should perhaps read the sutra of the 6th patriarch and carefully re-read master Ma's tile polishing koan...without Master Dogen's spin on it.

The whole google subject brings to mind the whole exploitation of zen as "fashion" or I guess whatever stupid misinterpretation non-zen practicing people have. I find the mockery is sort of like a koan in itself... I think about it, and part of it makes me angry a little, and then another part of me welcomes the opposition, basically I give up and stop thinking at that point, and then I laugh about it to myself.I'll be checking out the song once I got off my work computer.Peace.

Dogma is a funny word. If you agree with somebody, it's the truth. If not, it's dogma. Zen says stuff. Obviously you don't agree with some of it, so according to you, it's dogma. What you haven't done is give some cogent argument why your opinion is correct. Exactly why is sitting with proper posture unnecessary? Exactly who has gotten enlightenment while sitting in a recliner?

Strange that the Buddha himself didn't place such a strong emphasis on the whole posture question.

Have you ever seen a statue of the Buddha? What posture was he in? Were his eyes open or closed?

re-read master Ma's tile polishing koan

Saying that enlightenment has no fixed form means something other than what you think it does.

"Everything is as it is. This can be experienced in any posture possible (maybe reversed if standing on the head).

Lotus posture is the most balanced posture possible, making the experiencing a whole lot easier. This is why the lotus posture should be applied in zazen.

-Minä"

This is the best argument for a certain posture yet. I think it is more important to use the same posture whenever you meditate in order to more readily return to the same state of (no) mind. Lotus, half lotus, indian style...whatever, just do the same one every time. I wholeheartedly disagree with anyone who says that lotus is the correct posture simply because it is "the correct posture".

Kev, I do agree, there are psychological reasons to use the same posture. I also think the posture it good. However, I don't agree that it is the only single path that could ever succeed. Your true self is always with you, always there, and I don't believe that access to what you already are could be forever blocked by something like slumping or having inflexible legs. Different schools teach differently on this subject. Perhaps, some feel that the belief should be an article of blind faith. The whole concept of enlightenment is an interesting one. Do you know someone who sat and then afterwards said they were now enlightened and were all done? I think the process is an ongoing one and happens both during sitting as well as during the rest of the day and even in sleeping.

I personally have trouble sitting in full lotus because of stiff joints and getting old (nearly 60). Lately, I had a pain in my left knee which left me unable to even sit on the floor. For a while, I sat on a stool, but in a posture that let me keep the spine straight, which is the main point.

However, what I notice is that sitting on the floor is more comfortable than sitting on a stool. Sitting half lotus is more comfortable than sitting burmese, and sitting full lotus is more comfortable than sitting half lotus. The main reason being due to the stability afforded. Half lotus keeps you with one knee not on the floor because it is borne on the foot. Burmese requires an extreme flexibility of the hip joint and doesn't allow you to have your hands upon something, and with the stool, your legs need to constantly reassess your weight.

I know this because I have practiced all of them. My -- personal -- difficulty is one linked with a lifetime of psycho-physical rigidity, in which my practice of Zen came in at a much too late age. I have been doing lots of exercise to ease my body, and I suppose it would be much worse if I didn't do them. But Don't let anyone fool you. Even if one does his best at what's possible, that never precludes the real thing, even if it is unfortunately difficult.

My Sartoruis and Vastus Medialis are both jacked up in my right leg making it near impossible for me to bend my knee enough for full-lotus. I sit 20 minutes a day and during those 20 minutes I sit half-lotus because having one knee on the ground provides much more stability than sitting cross-legged. When I sit cross-legged I can’t keep my back straight and spend the whole time fidgeting. I do yoga every morning to try and open up my hips and leg muscles on the right side so I can sit full-lotus – not because of Zen dogma or because Brad said so, but because Mina is right, that posture provides the most stable foundation for sitting Zazen. True understanding isn’t easy, if it were we’d all become Zen masters sitting on the couch watching The Simpsons.

Anon Said:"Funny, lots of people think zen is free of dogma. Strange that the Buddha himself didn't place such a strong emphasis on the whole posture question. Seems he would have devoted at least a sutra to it if it were so vital. Instead he wasted all his breath talking about the 4 noble truths and 8 fold path."

The people that Buddha (allegedly) originally taught the Four Noble Truths to and the Eightfold Path to were already very well learned in all kinds of sitting techniques, since they were supposedly ascetic for quite a few years. Who knows, though.

This is almost certainly a waste of time, but on the off chance that someone reading this crap actually has an interest in Zen: no, there is no magic posture, there is no magic teacher. Brad is a fucked up kid mired in the 1980s who has blown up his marriage and his job and clings to the one thing that he thinks is untouchable -- the RIGHT way to do Zen. He is as screwy as Genpo/Merzel. Zen is for real you all. Don't waste your precious life.

I was going to apologize for the harsh tone of my remarks. Actually, I do apologize, I didn't realize how harsh I'd been until I reread what I said. But, boy, I've never written anything as nasty as that, and I hope I never do.

I was thought sitting was overrated, but I was to scared to sit and face myself. Life aint easy for anyone, but it takes strength to sit there and see yourself, face your fear or whatever the fuck else comes up....turn off your t.v and go sit and stop been scared of the results. Your an animal just like me, but at least I can see what I am. Life Happens, whether you wish to see or not, but me I'd rather see.

Translated by Dan Welch and Kazuaki Tanahashi (reprinted from The Art of Just Sitting: Essential Writings on the Zen Practice of Shikantaza edited by John Daido Loori)

Practicing Zen is zazen. For zazen a quiet place is suitable. Lay out a thick mat. Do not let in drafts or smoke, rain or dew. Protect and maintain the place where you settle your body. There are examples from the past of sitting on a diamond seat and sitting on a flat stone covered with a thick layer of grass.

Day or night the place of sitting should not be dark; it should be kept warm in winter and cool in summer.

Set aside all involvements and let the myriad things rest. Zazen is not thinking of good, not thinking of bad. It is not conscious endeavor. It is not introspection.

Do not desire to become a buddha; let sitting or lying down drop away. Be moderate in eating and drinking. Be mindful of the passing of time, and engage yourself in zazen as though saving your head form fire. On Mount Huangmei the Fifth Ancestor practiced zazen to the exclusion of all other activities.

When sitting zazen, wear the kashaya (the Buddha’s robe) and use a round cushion. The cushion should not be placed all the way under the legs, but only under the buttocks. In this way the crossed legs rest on the mat and the backbone is supported with the round cushion. This is the method used by all buddha ancestors fro zazen.

Sit either in the half-lotus position or in the full-lotus position. For the full-lotus put the right foot on the left thigh and the left foot on the right thigh. The toes should lie along the thighs, not extending beyond. For the half-lotus position, simply put the left foot on the right thigh.

Loosen your robes and arrange them in an orderly way. Place the right hand on the left foot and the left hand on the right hand, lightly touching the ends of the thumbs together. With the hands in this position, place them next to the body so that the joined thumb-tips are at the navel.

Straighten your body and sit erect. Do not lean to the left or right; do not bend forward or backward. Your ears should be in line with your shoulders, and your nose in line with your navel.

Rest your tongue against the roof of your mouth, and breathe through your nose. Lips and teeth should be closed. Eyes should be open, neither too wide, nor too narrow. Having adjusted body and mind in this manner, take a breath and exhale fully.

Sit solidly in samadhi and think not-thinking. How do you think not-thinking? Nonthinking. This is the heart of zazen.

Zazen is not learning to do concentration. It is the dharma gate of great ease and joy. It is undefiled practice-enlightenment.

Some notes:

Zazen means seated Zen as in Zen meditation.

This document is one of two by the great thirteenth century Japanese Soto master Eihei Dogen. There have been a number of studies of these texts worth looking at. One I recommend is Carl Bielefeldt's Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation. But the real value is found in doing it.

In addition to the full-lotus and half-lotus, the quarter-lotus (also called the half-ass lotus) where the ankle rests on the calf, the so-called burmese position where the foot is simply placed in front of the calf, and seiza where one kneels, with the buttocks resting either on the heels, a sideways zafu or a special bench; all work. Also it actually doesn't matter which foot rests on which thigh or calf. I've spent the last year sitting in a chair to no obvious ill-effect beyond a bruised ego (perhaps all for the best). Whatever position, the principal remains the same, when possible, sit with the buttocks slightly higher than the knees, creating a triangulated base to support the torso. People with severe back or knee problems also “sit” quite well lying down. Also, if you've taken an introductory course to Zen meditation you probably were introduced to some form of "breath counting." Because the mind is such a monkey, many teachers, most actually, suggest beginning by attaching yr attention to yr breath. There are several ways to do this, the most succinct form is to count both inhalation and exhalation of five breath cycles: so, inhale one; exhale, two, inhale three, etc. Do again. This is in fact a complete practice, and some people continue with this for the whole of one's life. The schools in which I've practiced, however, once one has attained a little concentration, go on to the practice described here, or take on koan introspection. Or both.

Generally if one wishes to take up this practice at some point it needs to become pretty much a daily thing. The minimum time to sit before seeing some sort of results is about half an hour a day most every day. Many experienced practitioners sit double or triple that.

However, when beginning, developing regularity is vastly more important that cultivating duration. So, committing to sitting ten minutes a day three days a week, and doing it, is better than deciding to sit two hours a day, and discovering all the good reasons not to do it... Get up to the half hour and you can legitimately call yourself a Zen meditator.

Connecting with a competent teacher and perhaps hitting a retreat (usually starting with one and three day retreats before moving on to seven days) are next steps worth considering...

Last, a note on “nonthinking” the summa bonum of this practice. Also terribly misleading. Many people have wasted many years trying to stop the brain's function in a vain effort to stop thinking. There, sadly, is only one way to completely still the brain's movement. That deadend noted, this enigmatic phrase points to something well worth the struggle. I’ve found the translation “beyond thinking” helpful. Think boundless as you think. Then let go of that, as well...

"Exactly why is sitting with proper posture unnecessary? Exactly who has gotten enlightenment while sitting in a recliner?"

There is a large space between proper posture as defined by Brad or xyz and sitting in a recliner, presumably dozing. Enlightenment is not a particular state of mind, but the ground of all such states. States of mind come and go depending upon causes and conditions. Enlightenment is not a particular experience amongst other experiences.

Please do not misunderstand. Sitting meditation is the easiest approach to insight or understanding this Mind. But it's only an approach, a type of upaya itself. Making a fetish or dogma out of sitting meditation is counterproductive. Whip the ox, not the cart.

"Saying that enlightenment has no fixed form means something other than what you think it does."

jinzang, your comments are usually very insightful and balanced, so I'm surprise you'd say something like this. How could you possible know this?

"If you try to become a sitting Buddha, this is no less than killing the Buddha. If you cling to the sitting form you will not attain the essential truth."

Seems pretty clear...unless your understanding has been muddied by some authority interpreting it for you.

"Exactly why is sitting with proper posture unnecessary?"

"Dhyana experts in the capital," said Hsueh Chien (when interviewing the Patriarch), "unanimously advise people to meditate in the sitting position to attain Samadhi. They say that this is the only way to realize the Norm (Tao), and that it is impossible for anyone to obtain liberation without going through meditation exercises. May I know your way of teaching, Sir?" "The Norm is to be realized by the mind," replied the Patriarch, "and does not depend on the sitting position. The Diamond Sutra says that it is wrong for anyone to assert that the Tathagata comes or goes, sits or reclines. Why? Because the Tathagata's 'Dhyana of Purity' implies neither coming from anywhere nor going to anywhere, neither becoming nor causing to be. All Dharmas are calm and void, and such is the Tathagata's 'Seat of Purity'. Strictly speaking, there is even no such thing as 'attainment'; why then should we bother ourselves about the sitting position?""Where is Reality to be found, when all phenomena are unreal? Sentient beings are mobile; Inanimate objects are stationary. He who trains himself by exercise to be motionless (Gets no benefit) other than making himself as still as an inanimate object. Should you find true Immobility There is Immobility within activity. Immobility (like that of inanimate objects) is immobility (and not Dhyana), And in inanimate objects the seed of Buddhahood is not to be found." / Master Hui Neng

FYI, Like you, I've sat daily for decades and the last 15 years in full-lotus, so don't assume I'm advocating recliner-meditation or disparaging sitting meditation.

"Strange that the Buddha himself didn't place such a strong emphasis on the whole posture question. Seems he would have devoted at least a sutra to it if it were so vital. Instead he wasted all his breath talking about the 4 noble truths and 8 fold path. Anyone believing that such dogmatic views of posture are at the heart of zen should perhaps read the sutra of the 6th patriarch and carefully re-read master Ma's tile polishing koan...without Master Dogen's spin on it."

translation: I'm too lazy and inflexible to sit down and stare at a wall for half an hour a day.

Jinzang beat me to it with the fact that almost every bloody image show the buddha sitting in lotus. hmmm.

"Brad is a fucked up kid mired in the 1980s"

Anger issues much?

" There is no magic posture, there is no magic teacher."

I will bet so much money thatthe people who get super up tight at the mere mention of posture being important are the very same people who treat their bodies like crap, slouch and have never even got within 3 feet of a zafu. could there be a link?

this has been said before but: zazen is closer to a sport than a 'spiritual' pursuit.

If someone tells you there is a correct and an incorrect way to play golf do you get pissed at them and tell them they're fetishizing the correct technique for golf swings?

mind and body are the same thing. If you slouch and treat your body like crap that is the same as treating your mind like crap.

Have you never seen those old people who are practically on all fours because their spines are so curved from years of bad posture that they can barely see in front of them? That is exactly what will happen to every whinging dickhead who tries to pretend that posture isn't important.

I will also bet a lot of money that every single person who thinks posture isn't important suffers from some kind of back pain. I used to too. Then one day i realised I had terrible posture. so i did something about it and back pain gone.

People live in their heads to much. They should live in their bodies instead.

without the best of me shrouded in a tempest harp, all that being shot to hell and shit smiles to beg all that ever harvested the seed and belted the turmoil of lush coinencidences manages me like pontoon for the retarded .

Broiled to tune of an old leery minute basket of woven . He paid dues to all the bells that rang of the coming of sheer delight of passive on-goings and shrewd telling that a miner shed the day of sheering of a plumb for all the breweries in stockholm held manners tightly amongst the rapid boiling of sherbet cones of danger.

Anonymous posting allows some people to say whatever they want to without the fear of others connecting a name to their thoughts. They can be as ugly or beautiful or as crazy as they want to be. In many ways they are the only truly honest posters.

"slander: a type of defamation. Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the internet -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience."

The Twelve Causes of SufferingIgnoranceUnnecessary Activity based on IgnoranceMistaken perception arising from ignoranceDeceptive Objects of Consciousness (e.g. I want one of those too.)Six Points of Entry for Deception (eye, ear, nose, tongue, touch, and intuition)Unnecessary Contact with Marginal Objects (e.g. beyond the realm of food, water, shelter, clothing)Unnecessary Sensation (e.g. thrills)Hedonism and HatredClinging to material things (a BMW 325i)State of Transmigration (Wanting to 'do it all over.')Birth and Illness (our rebirth reflects cause and effect)Old Age and Death (the law of causation means that humans must grow old and die)

jinzang, your comments are usually very insightful and balanced, so I'm surprise you'd say something like this. How could you possible know this?

Sitting meditation is the easiest approach to insight or understanding this Mind. But it's only an approach, a type of upaya itself. Making a fetish or dogma out of sitting meditation is counterproductive. Whip the ox, not the cart.

When someone I don't know comments on this blog, I have to make some assumptions about who I'm talking to when I respond. My assumption was that they meant all postures are equally good for meditation. That's just not so.

It's true that once you have an unshakable understanding of the nature of mind, all situations and postures are equally good and its a fault to have a preference for any of them. And I believe that's what the koan and Platform Sutra are talking about. But short of that, the practice of sitting meditation with a good posture is vitally important.

Do you really have to make assumptions? Perhaps the most accurate at least for me and my posts would be to assume that I mean exactly what I say but probably not any extrapolations you may think up beyond that. If I say I don't think that lotus is required for enlightenment, it means only that. If I were to write every potential assumption and then try to clarify those, I would still not think of them all and my comments would be REALLY long. People's assumptions continually surprise me. I could never predict them all. In fact, I often find myself shocked by the many and varied assumptions that I could have never imagined my self and which usually do not apply, at least to me. IMO, assumptions are very dangerous and devisive things because they are often not accurate. When I see something I think is not quite right, I have a tendency to want to say something. That's all. Please do not expect a hidden agenda. Perhaps someday I will be more enlightened and be able to say this better or perhaps not say it at all, but that day is not yet. If you choose to read more into it, like someone said that I must be lazy (could be true but would not make my argument wrong) or that I mean some giant sweeping condemnation of Lotus, that did not come from me and it's not something I think at all. Sorry, I did post one thing as anonymous, (started with 'Kev, I agree..')but that is because the blogger identity system would not recognize my password. I will try again today but if it won't go through, I will again post under anonymous.-theloonybin

Yes, if I want to answer. And when I'm wrong people aren't usually shy about pointing it out. Which is not a problem. It's all part of the conversation.

If I say I don't think that lotus is required for enlightenment, it means only that.

What you said was:

Really gotta have the right posture eh? No one can experience ground of being without it? But what did they do way way back when before it was known and taught?

My understanding of right posture is broader than lotus. Lotus is one good posture, the best if you can do it, but there are others. Right posture is sitting on the floor with your back straight, and your knees on the ground. Some people can't manage this and they should do the best they can. But proper posture is an important aid to settling the mind and it's sad to not take advantage of it.

My comment yesterday was too harsh and I apologize again for it. I hope we both understand each other better now and that there are no hard feelings.

Anonymous said...without the best of me shrouded in a tempest harp, all that being shot to hell and shit smiles to beg all that ever harvested the seed and belted the turmoil of lush coinencidences manages me like pontoon for the retarded .

Broiled to tune of an old leery minute basket of woven . He paid dues to all the bells that rang of the coming of sheer delight of passive on-goings and shrewd telling that a miner shed the day of sheering of a plumb for all the breweries in stockholm held manners tightly amongst the rapid boiling of sherbet cones of danger.

When I suffered loss in life I always returned to sitting. when things were going well I didn't feel the need to sit as much but I never completly lost 'don't know mind'. Two years ago I lost my wife, brother, mother-in-law, uncle and 2 cousins. I'm Ok with that now but at the time it seemed difficult and I extend to all who have lost loved ones, jobs, relationships my sympathy and compassion. It is hard work to build new relationships and find the support I need.

AS far as posture, I injured my knee a few years ago so I sat on the edge of a chair. It worked for me. I recently began sitting in half lotus for short periods and hope to extend those periods gradually. even though it's a pain in the knee, I know it's better for me to sit lotus.

Don't know about anybody else, but I often get in trouble because of my knee-jerk reaction against rules-- especially anything that resembles a religious mandate.Look, I don't know anything about the nervous system. Hell, I can't even keep straight the difference between slander and libel. So I ain't gonna lecture. But maybe there's something to learn from the collective experience of people who have been at this for a couple thousand years. Doesn't mean they're always right, or that what worked they did in the Land Before Time is gonna work today. But people keep coming back to the importance of posture and discipline. So let's be careful before we throw it all out because we don't like rules.

"My understanding of right posture is broader than lotus. Lotus is one good posture, the best if you can do it, but there are others. Right posture is sitting on the floor with your back straight, and your knees on the ground. Some people can't manage this and they should do the best they can. But proper posture is an important aid to settling the mind and it's sad to not take advantage of it."

Now that's what I mean by your comments usually being balanced. I agree completely with what you said here. It's not dogmatic or extreme. I too have found the full-lotus to be the best posture. It does not follow that it is 'required'. From time to time I'll also sit with my palms down on my knees or even turned upwards as in the classic 'om' hindu method. When I injured my knee I sat seiza for several weeks. In my opinion, it's ridiculous to suggest such slight alterations in posture are 'incorrect' or not true zen, etc. At most, it could be said that such and such a posture is not the Dogen or 'soto' zen way.

If someone tells you there is a correct and an incorrect way to play golf do you get pissed at them and tell them they're fetishizing the correct technique for golf swings?

I completely reject the notion that real meditation or zazen is a mere technique or ability like golf or the ability to lift heavy weights. This is similar to the notion that zazen is a technique for attaining some special experience or generating feelings of bliss. There are all sorts of skillful ways of approaching meditation or for quieting the mind, but at some point they are to be transcended.

"mind and body are the same thing. If you slouch and treat your body like crap that is the same as treating your mind like crap."

Mind and body are not the same thing. They are two aspects of one underlying reality. This is exactly why Nan chuan asks if you should whip the cart (body) or the ox (mind). Your hand and head are part of the same body, yet you don't comb your fingernails.

"I completely reject the notion that real meditation or zazen is a mere technique or ability like golf or the ability to lift heavy weights. This is similar to the notion that zazen is a technique for attaining some special experience or generating feelings of bliss. There are all sorts of skillful ways of approaching meditation or for quieting the mind, but at some point they are to be transcended."

I think that what Jinzang is saying (and pardon me if it's not) is that just like any activity, there are correct forms and incorrect forms. If you lift weights incorrectly it doesn't mean you're not actually lifting weights or getting stronger, it just means you might not get as strong as you would otherwise or you might hurt yourself. I don't see how that is any different from zazen. Certain postures might better generate concentration, and so wouldn't those postures be more beneficial to your practice? I suppose the absence of a set goal complicates it, but I still don't see zazen being any different.

I think also that, to push the example even further, you can modify a practice so much that it becomes something else. So if you start sitting on a bench balancing an ice bucket on your head (har har) while humming perfect 5ths, all of that might help you concentrate better but it's sure as hell not zazen.

"that Dogen or any of the teachers of zen are being doubted as to sit or shit would've gotten a well deserved smack up side the head in the past;"

Let me get this straight. We should never doubt Dogen or any zen teacher? What if one zen teacher doubts another? When teachers disagree, who do we doubt and who believe? Master Dogen was a fierce critic of Master Ta Hui, even doubting his enlightenment at all. Ta Hui strongly criticized the zen teachers who taught silent illumination in his own day. Zen teachers today doubt one another all the time (think Brad vs. Genpo). The ancient teachers also freely criticized other teachers they disagreed with. Sorry, my 'doubting' (as in someone who used to call himself doubtboy) is what led me to zen in the first place. I try to question everything in a positive, non-cynical way. I especially question all authority (someone once said that was good too) and will continue to do so. If not, I'd likely be a Baptist who believed that the bible was the revealed word of God.

Once the native Americans ate bark from the willow tree and found it relieved their aches and pains for a time. Modern science later figured out that willow bark contains what we now call aspirin. There is much wisdom of the ages that are probably valid but still not understood or given their just due. However, some of the stuff will probably not turn out to be exactly as we think of it now and some will not be accurate at all. We still don't know a lot about what happens during meditation. We don't know much about consciousness and reality and any of that stuff. We dont REALLY REALLY know and grok the details. I think over the ages, much wisdom and much dogma have been accumulated. I don't think we should blindly trust nor should we blindly throw out. I think we have to find our own path, but I do not think there is only one path. I think people tend to assume that the path that worked for them is the best path, but I also think that the paths that are best publicized tend to be the more commonly taken paths. There is a certain danger in assuming that the majority is always most correct.

As for anonymous posting, I have been thinking about what gunderloy said about it being the most honest posting and I sort of agree. People are more likely to speak more freely when anonymous, although I think you can only be as honest with others as you are with yourself and sometimes that is not very honest. Yet when people post with their names, they may be more likely to try moderate what they say, yet they may not feel exactly like what they wrote and in a way are more consciously altering their true feelings in print. This way is more obviously peaceful in a group but on some level others may sense a dichotomy and yet others may come to a habit of automatically looking for secondary meanings in posts but not always assuming the correct ones. This could lead to a more subtle discord. So which way is better?-theloonybin

"If someone tells you there is a correct and an incorrect way to play golf do you get pissed at them and tell them they're fetishizing the correct technique for golf swings?"

In the workshop where I worked, I saw this apprentice who managed to anger the boss, an otherwise extremely gentle person, by insisting that he didn't want to learn the boss' way of regulating the actions, but wanted to discover "his" own way.

"Mind and body are not the same thing. They are two aspects of one underlying reality. This is exactly why Nan chuan asks if you should whip the cart (body) or the ox (mind). Your hand and head are part of the same body, yet you don't comb your fingernails."

when i said mind and body i meant mind and brain. mind and brain are exactly the same thing. posture affects the brain. But you're right that i don't comb my fingernails.

Yudo, I once worked for a man that had certain habitual ways of doing things. Some of them were good but some were slow and barely functional. Several times, I was pressured to do his way quickly, something not really possible, but we were under time constraints. My solution on several occasoins was to do it my way and get it done twice as fast. If he caught me doing it my way before I was done, he would get mad, but if I was already done, done way ahead of schedual doing it my way, then he was happy. Disobediance is not by itself bad, it depends on the circumstances and the outcome. I think you can neither be blindly against rules nor can you be blindly following rules if you hope to do your best in this world but I think for some people, it's easier to be told how to do it than to think for themselves and for others they want it always their way and they never want to listen to anybody ever. IME, niether works that well but most people tend toward one or the other. -theloonybin

Wow, this has to be the most hateful cat outside of monotheism. Help me guys, are there any others--aside from a couple of examples drawn from pre-modern Japan--who are this angry? I am surprised he didn't find Islam a more tempting path--now those dudes heart weaponry, haha--Has anybody heard Genpo speak disparagingly about Brad? What Buddhist would follow a hateful religious teacher? There's plenty of that in what we have in Capitalist Christianity already, sheesh... I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying that this kind of speech is wrong, or unhelpful, at least to me. I feel my heart ink darkness like an octopus when I read posts like that. Of what use is this sort of thing to the world? Love, The Blubbering Idiot

Haha yes Lennon had a point there. But my point isn't that love is the answer, my point (and, not coincidentally, the Buddha's point as well) is that ill will is certainly not the answer. Which might not be a problem for somebody who can get distance from his emotions, like Brad, but it seems he is doing a grave disservice to those who would read his work and get enveloped, wrapped up in this sad whirlpool of ill will. I'm sorry, but ill will is not legitimate, not helpful, and not the way. I remember hearing at an AA meeting long ago (I'm a therapist) that whenever somebody irritates you, "It's never about them no matter who it is." Here, too, this is not about Genpo, this is about Brad and his projections. This is not criticism (constructive or otherwise) or dialog, this is plain old fashioned ill will, and it's solidly in the world, it's not transcendent, and it's a heresy, a false philosophy, junk food for the mind. This path of ill will goes off a cliff, not to nirvana, not to peace, not to unbinding. And if you don't believe a Blubbering Idiot, ask the Nazis. :(

"He who is in the habit of looking down upon others has not got rid of the erroneous idea of a self, which indicates his lack of Kung. Because of his egotism and his habitual contempt for all others, he knows not the real Essence of Mind"--Sixth Patriarch

"First of all, authority in so-called spiritual matters is really nonspiritual. I think that must be clear and must be understood deeply. There is no authority in man's endeavour to find out if there is that ultimate truth. The authority of a priest, of all the religions based on hearsay, on propaganda, on conditioning the mind to believe in certain saviours, masters and so on. Because one has to be a light to oneself and you cannot possibly light your light from another.And we are saying that a mind, a religious mind that is trying to find out what religion is, the truth, if there is an ultimate reality, ultimate truth, must be totally free from all authority." J. Krishnamurti

"Yudo, I once worked for a man that had certain habitual ways of doing things. Some of them were good but some were slow and barely functional. (...) I think you can neither be blindly against rules nor can you be blindly following rules (...)"-I do agree. But since I had the worse training master one could ever dream of (or nightmare of) in my trade, I know for sure that having someone show you how things are done first is a good way of avoiding losing too much time. I know very personally and very exactly what being psycho-rigid means, both in others and myself. I'd never advocate that sort of attitude.

I'm glad Brad shows us some of his "ill will" and refuses to hide is anger behind a full-of-shit-buddhist-attitude. If you think, being a zen-master means to reach some nirvana-bullshit-state with no anger in wich you have to be nice and friendly to everybody, you should read some commentaries of Kodo Sawaki, first of all the ones on enlightment and on so called fake-zen-masters like that shithead Genpo and how you recognize that they are a fake. Compared to Sawaki, Brad is harmless. And Big-mind-Genpo... may lightning struck him while s(h)itting...

Hi Holger. The Buddha talked about cause and effect, not about essences. What I "think" is irrelevant. Most students find it more difficult to get their minds to settle down into good concentration when ill will is in the mind. This is why the Buddha identified it as one of the five hindrances. The Buddha didn't say it was good or bad, he said that it was unhelpful to the goal, and encouraged people to examine their own actions and see if it was not the case. It doesn't matter to me what you do--I'm not the karma-cop, and don't need to be, it happens on its own, yes?--but, of all the things in the world, the Buddha named five as hindrances which, for those who call themselves Buddhists, is unhelpful practice to ignore. In other words, ill will is indefensible. You can't defend it. It's different than anger, it's personal, and it's a hindrance. One thing is for sure: we have gone beyond Buddhism, to some sort of post-Buddhist religion where we can ignore fundamental teachings of the founder. If we have, then we are practicing some new-age religion, not Buddhism. However, one must practice according to one's own lights. If provoking the hindrances seems to make sense to you for a day or two, or a decade or two, then perhaps that is your karma working itself out. May you find true happiness. Cheers, The Blubbering Idiot.

No problem,man. But I guess I should have made my point more explicit. I think you're right about ill will according to the way you define it, but I put it in "" because I don't think that Brad is really suffering on it, but that it is real anger about the big mind stuff that made him say these things. And I'm glad he does (as well as it is a pain in my ass what he's saying about proper posture, because there's little chance that I ever going to make it).

It might make you feel better to think your own or other's anger is righteous or justified, but such a concept is not part of the Buddha's teachings. Anger is one of the 3 poisons that we are all supposed to be trying to uproot and transcend (not repress). It's fine to admit and be honest about our anger. Even zen masters are imperfect and afflicted with the 3 poisons. But such anger should be seen for what it is...a fault, a poison and hindrance, and never justified. Such justified, righteous anger forms part of the judeo-christian-islamic tradition owing to the angry nature of yahweh, but does not form part of the buddhist teachings. Whether such an attitude is 'bullshit buddhist' depends upon motivation. If you're only trying not to appear angry, that is fake, buddhist bullshit. If the motivation is a genuince attempt to transcend anger, it is not. To assume other's motivation and behaviour is always the same as our own is simply projection.

"All of you Bhikshus, if a person dismembered you piece by piece your mind should be self-contained. Do not allow yourself to become angry. Moreover, you should guard your mouth and not give rise to evil speech. If you allow yourself to have thoughts of anger, you will hinder your own Way, and lose the merit and virtue you have gained. You should know that a heart of anger is worse than a fierce fire. You should always guard against it, and not allow it to enter you, for of the thieves which rob one's merit and virtue, none surpasses anger. Anger may be excusable in lay people who indulge in desires, and in people who do not cultivate the Way, who are without the means to restrain themselves, but for people who have left the home-life, who cultivate the Way and are without desires, harboring anger is impermissable."

I've been reading Brad's stuff pretty much since it first came out. I read the first edition of Hardcore Zen, as well as the 30+ articles he wrote on his old website that have since been deleted. I've noticed that his writings have gradually become more "in your face" , including name calling. While he did do this from the get-go, it always seemed very playful and obvious that he was trying to be benevolently irreverent. But he's seemingly stepped it up a bit and I have noticed that a large portion of the people that comment on his blog posts mention how angry he sounds.

I've never seen Brad speak in person, only seen one or two 3-minute-long youtube videos. The guy doesn't seem angry to me, and it's sometimes hard to believe that the guy speaking is the same guy writing this blog. While Brad says that he thinks it's funny to write the way he does, he hasn't addressed the increasingly angry-sounding posts, despite the fact that people continously harp on him in the comment section about it.

I'm not saying I don't like Brad's point of view. I'm just saying that I have noticed a significant change in the way he writes. I'm not blaming the guy for anything, I'm not saying he should embody what I think a zen master should be or any of that stuff, so spare me the flamer posts. If Brad's going through a tough time that's totally fine and I don't blame the guy for getting pissed off. But it might be nice if he acknowledged that, or atleast explained the tone of his posts.

I think anger often masks pain and insecurity. As long as the anger is let have its way without effort to see what is underneath causing it, the real issue will not be seen clearly and will continue to bubble up and fester and cause discontent for long periods of time. Whatever trait or activity you consider, there will always be a raft of people who have more problems in that area than you do and there will always be a raft of people who have less problems in that area than you do. That doesn't change who you are yourself. -theloonybin

There are people in every field who promise an easy way to get results fast. I think many humans want to believe in such a way. They look for that way regardless of if it is offered by someone or not. So there are people who have learned to capitalize on those desires and rake in money from those people who want results. Heck, who does not want results fast! The providers may not realize, but they DO provide a valuable service. They give those people what they think they want and only when they get it might they possibly get it out of their system so to speak. Sometimes, or often, you just have to learn the hard way. Meanwhile, those who are taking advantage of people are in their own trap. Some of the most miserable people I have known are rich people and some of them have the least idea why they are so miserable and how to help themselves. Money and success can be the worst kind of traps. A jail cell made of gold is still a jail cell.

Good heaven. I point out the silliness of Brad's Magic Posture, disappear for a few days and return to see a zillion post by earnest adepts just sure that if they could just sit right then they too would be a perfect Zen Master. Pity for the poor disabled men and women who deprived of an ability to bend their legs just so, will forever be denied the wisdom of the ancients. Guys, guys, guys. Presumably something has brought you here. Yes, you want to believe there is some magic formula that will make you perfect (if not save your marriage or your job), but there is no such thing ever, ever, ever. You KNOW a magic posture is bullshit. Clutch your little dogs, quote the ancients, read and read, post and post, this is useless.

OOOH! Careful, there, Brad! You take on Gempo, you've got the whole White Plum Sangha gunning for you, with their manager Maezumi "Alky" Roshi (deceased) calling the shots! Top of the card at next year's Buddhamania, live on pay-per-view: steel-cage zendo death match! First Zen Master levitating over the cage and onto the floor takes the belt! Hippies versus punks finally battling it out once and for all! LET'S GET READY TO RUUUUUUMBLLLLLLE!

"Pity for the poor disabled men and women who deprived of an ability to bend their legs just so, will forever be denied the wisdom of the ancients."

"CripZen does more than explore what meditation can do for the disabled; it demonstrates what disability consciousness can do for meditation, and then it goes beyond that to demonstrate the limitations of both. While his CripZen dharma recalls the traditional, repetitive, oral form of Buddhist sutras, it also subverts the authority of traditional Buddhism, challenging its normalizing foundations. Milam critiques Buddhist teachings for their ableist assumptions: “Some masters tell us that we can only do meditation in the lotus position. Obviously, they haven’t gone through Rehab”

Ah, were it that easy. I can't speak for anyone else, but this Anonymous lumps Genpo's Big Mind Process with the Magic Posture, the former -- so far anyway (although Brad is trying) -- better at raking in the $$. Genpo is a logical outgrowth of Maezumi's alcohol-fueled entrepreneurship. It is all bullshit.

OMG and hay guys and again i can't believe i just figured it out like that...usually im dumm! Brad's a hater!! Brad's Zendo: Three losers and one loser-a-saurus sitting on pillows aaahahahahaha...hater!!

I wish Brad happiness and hope he can work out his anger/frustration issues.

After reading his rants against Gempo, I was curious about all the hullabaloo and checked out Gempo's stuff for myself. There are websites where one can watch his seminars for FREE (yes, no charge, lol).

I got a lot from the Big Mind process. Just me.

Since Brad has continued to make Gempo such an issue on his blog, he should have enough integrity to sit down with Gempo one-on-one privately or better yet, an open debate (with any funds raised donated to charity) and discuss his concerns about Big Mind.

I do not generally comment on such things, but I woke up thinking about it and the shift in topics on this thread has been a good example of how consciousness can often shift and wallow from moment to mo moment; Harsh speech returning with apology, confusion, dhamma(dharma if you prefer), ego, pure delusion, and even truthful insight shining through and shifting/mixing depending on which voice is posting. There has been some beautiful truth and insight expressed as well as some real problematic ways of thinking.. and everything in between. Thanks to the author and all the contributors! :)

I would like to comment on sitting and position. I can understand how one might feel that one way of sitting/meditating could be the only way since it is far superior to something else in that persons experience. But where else in this life-experience have we found anything to be only this way, or only that way, and no other option? It seems to be a self-limiting view, an "all or nothing" way of thinking that does not really fit well into other teachings I have heard and experienced to be true. For myself, Suttas support a broader/fuller path, a middle way.

Also, I think it is important that anyone have the right and self-confidence to point out apparent flaws or fraud in a system, but just like anything else, there are skillful ways of approaching disagreement and there are ways to disagree that promote schism in the sanga and does not inspire newcomers to the dhamma, diminishing confidence in the teachers and even perhaps leading to misunderstood interpretations of dhamma on the part of loyal students.

I had a feeling that because of the nature of Gempo's teachings, that there would inevitably be a few people who react with anger to it. So I did a search 'Gempo roshi fake', and found this blog, I was surprised that there were so few though. So rather than it being a case of who is right and who is wrong, it really just comes down to Brad's reaction being inevitable and predictable, and it certainly says more about Brad than Gempo. It is also inevitable that I would react, by writing this comment. I feel however it would be a mistake to dismiss Gempo based on this blog, in fact for those that see beyond the anger it appears that it has indirectly attracted people to his teachings.

Personally I don't feel it matters squat how you sit, or even what you do internally, Consciousness is inevitable because it is you and you are it.

I have been in Unity Consciousness, my ego merged with the God Consciousness and I experienced Unconditional Love, Peace, Oneness. What did I do to trigger it? Nothing, absolutely 'No-thing', no meditation or striving in any way, it just happened. The only thing that I did was to ask my higher self (Guidance, God, or whatever), to reveal to me my highest potential, and later that day it came, when I least expected it.

It appears to me that people who react with anger in this way often use the 'they are only in it for the money' argument, but this reveals how their minds work, not the person they are making the accusations about.

So Gempo's approach may indirectly trigger this state of pure Consciousness that is within all humans, by asking some aspect of Self to bring it through you rather than you striving to reach for it yourself which is not going to work in my opinion.

Is it possible that the reason for postures is that they allow the flow of enrgy through the body in a particular way? So each posture may have a practical purpose. Mudra, Asana, karma sutra - all allow for a particular experience and transmission of our divine natures. Each posture or position allows for a particular alignment to the subtle energies. And a Koan could be just that - a posture for the mind to form into.Blessings and Peace within and without.

Honestly Warner your turning into a nutcase. Bragging about your books position on Amazon and then ranting about how much money someone else is making on there "technique". Poor little Brad's google ads aren't quite raking it in. I enjoyed your first book, your second as well, but this lack of compassion and pure hate you exhibit really turns me off ever wanting to buy the third. I couldn't give two shits about Genpos books and DVD's but I'm quite sure if you were smart enough to market some Zen Technique you would be sitting next to Oprah ranting and raving like how great it is. If your aim is to sell Zen to all the angry and jaded people out there saying "You too can be Enlightened and still be an asshole!" good luck.

i don't really know why i'm replying to your blog, in fact i dont understand why i feel the need to say anything to you. I'm not an avid reader of yours, i havent even finished one of your books. I Read like 50 pages of hardcore zen before i let someone else borrow it. The thing is the last couple of months have been eye opening. i feel i understand more now becuase i realise i know nothing. Well one would say if u dont know anything why dont you go to school and learn more. I would respond that school has only taught me that learning comes from living. I figured I would learn more from talking to someone who has probably lived longer and seen the world in a possibly similar yet completly different point of view. In short I would just like to extenend the oppertunity to have a conversation. Whether you would like to or not doesn't matter to me, i figure any responce would be fine, whether it be silence, or someone with a smart ass comment.(reading flame wars are fun being part of them is even better!)

i agree that proper posture is required. i've compared not using proper posture versus using it and there is a big difference. the closer i am to physical balance, the spine in it's correct natural alignment, the closer my mind (not separate from the body) is to balance. but of course, i'm still a very "unbalanced" sort of person! LOL

this is off topic...i play bassin a hardcore band here in portlandoregon.i feel that the intensity ofthe music, especially live is a boonto my zazen practice...and yet my bandmates get totally wasted all thetime..i don't want to come off as aself-righteous prickazoid, so i keepon, silently, with a growing inner conflict about our lifestyle differencesand such...but i do give a shit aboutthem. they are my asbestos friends..hohum.