1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosover believes in Him should not perish... Jn 3:16

The word for world is 'kosmon', which means system, or the whole cosmos. That falls in line with the scriptures that talk of God reconciling EVERYTHING to Himself, things on and above the earth - His whole creation!

From wiki - "They conclude that the sense and syntax of the Greek construction here focuses on the nature of God's love, addressing its mode, intensity, and extent. Accordingly, it emphasizes the greatness of the gift God has given.

There are other scholars agreeing with this assessment. "The 'so' (houtos) is an adverb of degree which points toward the clause which follows and here serves to express the idea ofinfinity, a love that is limitless, that is fully adequate. "The Greek construction…emphasizes the intensity of the love."

Welcome, be blessed. James.

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Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. Heb. 12:2

iwantmydindin

That's awesome and it certainly sets a fresh picture of God. It seems too good to be true. Recently,my interest in Calvinism had altered my view of God. The passage in Romans 9 about vessels fitted for destruction was intense. Anyway,thanks guys.

John 3:16 does NOT have the word "whosoever" in the original language. "Who" is a question in the midst of the doubters questing word "whosoever." There is no doubt God is telling how EVERYone is saved. John 3:16 does NOT have the word "whosoever" in the original language. As God gave it in Greek it says, "EVERY." For good English we might say "EVERYone." What it means is that:(Right now,in this manner,) "Thus God is loving the (entire) world, that He (always) gives His only begotten son so EVERYone (which is who, by) believing into Him will not (ever) be perishing, but (always) be having life(to the extent it is manifested) in this period of time.

For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him." (Jn 3:16-17)

« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 07:10:41 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

The gospel is NOT the worst possible news we can imagine. ( It is clearly stated what "the gospel" is in 1 Co 15:1-4) The gospel is GOOD news. God knows "before the foundation of the earth" who is going to be tortured ceaselessly for ever (according to our popular tradition.) He told us to, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY creature" (Mk 16:15) That would make us LIARS, if we obeyed the Lord...unless it really is true, Jesus is "the Savior of all," as the Bible calls Him. If we preach good news to whom God knows the only truth for them is the worst possible imaginable we are liars, and God told us to lie!?

« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 07:16:10 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Dindin, I'm not a Calvinist, but I do believe the Bible teaches predestination. (see the little blurb in my signature).

We are chosen from the foundation of the world - the ecclesia called out now, set aside, for the purpose of shepherding the nations - as the "kings of the earth bring their treasures into" the holy city, where the gates are never closed! So the rest enter "each in his own order"- destined.

Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be. In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version. The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one. The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally. But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all, believing in him, might have ćonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have ćonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds! "Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 07:18:05 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

dd, check out the teachings and discussions on destruction. Basically, we all serve our purpose in this plan of God. He has lowered mankind into this realm to "have an experience of evil" - to teach us and form us, as He brings mankind back to Himself. Everything in each of us not of God will be destroyed. A few enter the narrow gate. Most enter through the broad road to destruction. Fire and brimstone is in essence, intense (holy) heat and light that is a cleansing agent. Our God is consuming Fire!

God turned all to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all. Pharoah played his role; his heart was hardened, he served his purpose, but "we hope on the living God, Savior of all men, especially of those believing". Again, each in his own order as Paul said.

jabcat...was it you who posted the following after "John 3:16" by A. P. Adams a while back? I saved the comment without attributing it to whoever posted it.____________________________________________________

"For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing into Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."

Another key phrase in the popular translations which is mistranslated in that verse is the phrase "mh apolhtai". It is translated as "should not perish", but it should be translated as "should not be perishing" ...

the idea is that anyone who is not believe is in the process of perishing. Once one is quickened of the spirit though they be perishing in the body, they are made alive and or quickened in the spirit. The word "apolhtai" does not implicate an end state, so much as it indicates a present state or disposition. "Apolhtai" is the process of something or someone who is perishing presently.

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

iwantmydindin

Simply illuminating information,guys. The greek grammatical explanations were awesome. I simply never thought of pharoah as having any positive future. Honestly,what you just said harmoniously blends with the scriptures. Eternal condemnation always ended my thoughts. Wow...

Accurate translation is very important, and sometimes I wonder why the mistranslations have been allowed, and so many have been led astray. But then as I just said above, God has a plan, and it's all a part of His plan. Everything moves away from Him, goes through a process, and returns - each at various times, but back to the beginning none-the-less. Some now, the rest later.

Every knee will bow, every tongue confess (joyfully proclaim) Jesus is Lord. No man can call Jesus Lord (Master) but IN (accurate translation, not BY) the Holy Spirit. Anyone who confesses Jesus is Lord and believes He's risen from the dead, will be saved! Again, all those scrips begin to fit together. As a dear brother says on here (micah) "ain't God good?"

It is impossible to love your neighbor as yourself if he is ceaselessly tortured for ever while you are in permanent bliss.

It is the basic things that go awry when people believe God is a Master Torturer. He's making us into His own image. That is what is happening to us, rather than heading to a better place in death. But, how does becoming a torturer fit with your conscience?

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

PaoloNuevo

Though his deliverance from death through His death on the cross doesn't apply to the angels, God nonetheless was PLEASED to live in Christ to reconcile every single thing in creation to Himself by means of Christ's blood on the cross. (Col. 1: 17 - 20 )

In these days and age, there may be sufferings and tribulations, but they're all in order and part of the big picture where God will finally gather together in one all things in Christ (Eph.1 : 10 ) and where every knee and every tongue and every family will worship before the Lord.

You can avail of that salvation in Jesus right now if you put your trust in Him ... However, some people are set up to receive judgment, (2 Thes. 2: 11 - 12, Young's Literal Translation) but it will nonetheless be a judgment TO victory. (Matt 12: 20 KJV)

God does afflict, He does destroy, He killeth and makes whole... but He will not subject a single soul to the ghastly torture that lovers of perdition and hellfire preachers would have it.. He's a God who's into restoration and though He brings people through fire (in this age or the next), its all towards the end of rich fulfillment.