I have no problems engaging in intelligent debate with community members, What frustrates me is that I always have to wade through you and the rest of the circle-jerkers to get anywhere.

There is a common theme among a few peoples engaged on this forum to only support one another and no one else.

You have no clue what you're talking about. I've personally infracted both ruksak and shaggy for breaking the rules when arguing against one another. Don't pretend to know the community, and judge others based on what you see on a couple threads.

Learn to accept that people have different opinions than you, and things will be a lot easier for you.

These peoples typically have an inflated post-count. I'm not pointing any elbows here, but these certain people like to present fallacious arguments, and at the very least, WEAK arguments to the "debate."

Wanting the same items to be available for ladder and non-ladder players is a "fallacious" and "weak" argument? As far as I'm concerned, people who want ladder for the sake of the competition are the ones who have to prove why they need to have exclusive items as an incentive.

I have no problems engaging in intelligent debate with community members, What frustrates me is that I always have to wade through you and the rest of the circle-jerkers to get anywhere.

There is a common theme among a few peoples engaged on this forum to only support one another and no one else.

You have no clue what you're talking about. I've personally infracted both ruksak and shaggy for breaking the rules when arguing against one another. Don't pretend to know the community, and judge others based on what you see on a couple threads.

Learn to accept that people have different opinions than you, and things will be a lot easier for you.

These peoples typically have an inflated post-count. I'm not pointing any elbows here, but these certain people like to present fallacious arguments, and at the very least, WEAK arguments to the "debate."

Wanting the same items to be available for ladder and non-ladder players is a "fallacious" and "weak" argument? As far as I'm concerned, people who want ladder for the sake of the competition are the ones who have to prove why they need to have exclusive items as an incentive.

That exact argument format is called the burden of proof. I won't get into the matter that I never once said in any of my posts that the main scope of my argument was to encourage ladder only items. Several members plunged into the discussion and required me to defend a point I never even claimed. None the less, the burden of proof should not be laid upon me to prove to you why it should be so. In doing so, I eventually did offer argumentative points for the implementation of ladder only materials, which ultimately, is obviously user preference. For someone to never even make a cogent argument, just to insist on argumentation is completely childish. To abuse "forum speak," with replies to their own posts like ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this needs to be addressed when it clearly has been, and to draws arguments from very small portions of my entire posts and dismissing the rest completely and then claim that I fail to address specific topics or to attack my opinions so directly is just an ass-hat move, yet, I am treated like an outsider because I dont sit here and post on every topic that comes up every day.

We don't have to prove anything, it was already proven by years of feedback on D2. People did not like to be forced into online/ladder play in order to get the good items. The developers already chose this design path for a damn reason.

You want them to go back? They might, but they're gonna need a very strong argument and an amazing idea on how to make that work without excluding a big portion of the playerbase, which mind you, does not freaking care about competition in a singleplayer/coop focused ARPG. Simple as that.

I have no problems engaging in intelligent debate with community members, What frustrates me is that I always have to wade through you and the rest of the circle-jerkers to get anywhere.

There is a common theme among a few peoples engaged on this forum to only support one another and no one else.

You have no clue what you're talking about. I've personally infracted both ruksak and shaggy for breaking the rules when arguing against one another. Don't pretend to know the community, and judge others based on what you see on a couple threads.

Learn to accept that people have different opinions than you, and things will be a lot easier for you.

These peoples typically have an inflated post-count. I'm not pointing any elbows here, but these certain people like to present fallacious arguments, and at the very least, WEAK arguments to the "debate."

Wanting the same items to be available for ladder and non-ladder players is a "fallacious" and "weak" argument? As far as I'm concerned, people who want ladder for the sake of the competition are the ones who have to prove why they need to have exclusive items as an incentive.

That exact argument format is called the burden of proof. I won't get into the matter that I never once said in any of my posts that the main scope of my argument was to encourage ladder only items. Several members plunged into the discussion and required me to defend a point I never even claimed. None the less, the burden of proof should not be laid upon me to prove to you why it should be so. In doing so, I eventually did offer argumentative points for the implementation of ladder only materials, which ultimately, is obviously user preference. For someone to never even make a cogent argument, just to insist on argumentation is completely childish. To abuse "forum speak," with replies to their own posts like ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this needs to be addressed when it clearly has been, and to draws arguments from very small portions of my entire posts and dismissing the rest completely and then claim that I fail to address specific topics or to attack my opinions so directly is just an ass-hat move, yet, I am treated like an outsider because I dont sit here and post on every topic that comes up every day.

That's completely false. The burden of proof is ABSOLUTELY on you. YOUR the one who brought an idea to the table, so it's up to YOU to defend it.

I can't come in here, state that ladder should automatically delete your character after 72 hours, and then say its up to you to prove why it shouldn't.

It's kind of a sign for the fact that bot parties won't come to an agreement and the discussion is dead. Both sides more or less stated their opinion and reasoning, and there's just no common ground because it's not about tweaking a number but about a yes or no thing. Only future will tell us where Blizzard stands on this matter.

I have no problems engaging in intelligent debate with community members, What frustrates me is that I always have to wade through you and the rest of the circle-jerkers to get anywhere.

There is a common theme among a few peoples engaged on this forum to only support one another and no one else.

You have no clue what you're talking about. I've personally infracted both ruksak and shaggy for breaking the rules when arguing against one another. Don't pretend to know the community, and judge others based on what you see on a couple threads.

Learn to accept that people have different opinions than you, and things will be a lot easier for you.

These peoples typically have an inflated post-count. I'm not pointing any elbows here, but these certain people like to present fallacious arguments, and at the very least, WEAK arguments to the "debate."

Wanting the same items to be available for ladder and non-ladder players is a "fallacious" and "weak" argument? As far as I'm concerned, people who want ladder for the sake of the competition are the ones who have to prove why they need to have exclusive items as an incentive.

That exact argument format is called the burden of proof. I won't get into the matter that I never once said in any of my posts that the main scope of my argument was to encourage ladder only items. Several members plunged into the discussion and required me to defend a point I never even claimed. None the less, the burden of proof should not be laid upon me to prove to you why it should be so. In doing so, I eventually did offer argumentative points for the implementation of ladder only materials, which ultimately, is obviously user preference. For someone to never even make a cogent argument, just to insist on argumentation is completely childish. To abuse "forum speak," with replies to their own posts like ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this needs to be addressed when it clearly has been, and to draws arguments from very small portions of my entire posts and dismissing the rest completely and then claim that I fail to address specific topics or to attack my opinions so directly is just an ass-hat move, yet, I am treated like an outsider because I dont sit here and post on every topic that comes up every day.

That's completely false. The burden of proof is ABSOLUTELY on you. YOUR the one who brought an idea to the table, so it's up to YOU to defend it.

I can't come in here, state that ladder should automatically delete your character after 72 hours, and then say its up to you to prove why it shouldn't.

Why do I find myself repeating the fact I'm never the person who said that ladder only items should be there. I merely said that if it happens, I can see why its beneficial, and if it doesnt happen, I will still play ladder. I was not the person who started talking about ladder only items, or was gung-ho for ladder only items. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I have no problems engaging in intelligent debate with community members, What frustrates me is that I always have to wade through you and the rest of the circle-jerkers to get anywhere.

There is a common theme among a few peoples engaged on this forum to only support one another and no one else.

You have no clue what you're talking about. I've personally infracted both ruksak and shaggy for breaking the rules when arguing against one another. Don't pretend to know the community, and judge others based on what you see on a couple threads.

Learn to accept that people have different opinions than you, and things will be a lot easier for you.

These peoples typically have an inflated post-count. I'm not pointing any elbows here, but these certain people like to present fallacious arguments, and at the very least, WEAK arguments to the "debate."

Wanting the same items to be available for ladder and non-ladder players is a "fallacious" and "weak" argument? As far as I'm concerned, people who want ladder for the sake of the competition are the ones who have to prove why they need to have exclusive items as an incentive.

That exact argument format is called the burden of proof. I won't get into the matter that I never once said in any of my posts that the main scope of my argument was to encourage ladder only items. Several members plunged into the discussion and required me to defend a point I never even claimed. None the less, the burden of proof should not be laid upon me to prove to you why it should be so. In doing so, I eventually did offer argumentative points for the implementation of ladder only materials, which ultimately, is obviously user preference. For someone to never even make a cogent argument, just to insist on argumentation is completely childish. To abuse "forum speak," with replies to their own posts like ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this needs to be addressed when it clearly has been, and to draws arguments from very small portions of my entire posts and dismissing the rest completely and then claim that I fail to address specific topics or to attack my opinions so directly is just an ass-hat move, yet, I am treated like an outsider because I dont sit here and post on every topic that comes up every day.

That's completely false. The burden of proof is ABSOLUTELY on you. YOUR the one who brought an idea to the table, so it's up to YOU to defend it.

I can't come in here, state that ladder should automatically delete your character after 72 hours, and then say its up to you to prove why it shouldn't.

Why do I find myself repeating the fact I'm never the person who said that ladder only items should be there. I merely said that if it happens, I can see why its beneficial, and if it doesnt happen, I will still play ladder. I was not the person who started talking about ladder only items, or was gung-ho for ladder only items. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I realize that. I was responding to your quote of "None the less, the burden of proof should not be laid upon me to prove to you why it should be so". Which of course is false, and thus, my response.

Please edit your quotes and remove all unnecessary parts. If there's no post in between, there's sometimes even no need for a quote at all (or an @Nick will do). Quote pyramids of death striking again...

Please edit your quotes and remove all unnecessary parts. If there's no post in between, there's sometimes even no need for a quote at all (or an @Nick will do). Quote pyramids of death striking again...

Shush, I was on my phone and I'll be damned if a 5" 1080p screen actually matters when I've got like 1/4" to work with while the keyboard is up >

It's a good point, to say that the incentive to play ladder is the ....ladder. That if folks want to experience the "Race" ....that would be their incentive.

There needs not be further incentive for this game-play mode. No more than there needs to be Hardcore-only items. I play HC, I play it self found....I only use what RNG offers me. BUT, you will never hear me "whine and cry" for HC-only items. That would be unfair to people whom do not wish to feel the stinging refrain of permanent death.

My incentive for playing HC-SF is the fun I get from the experience, no other incentive is necessary.

To that end, I will submit that if the Ladder experience isn't enough of an incentive to play Ladder, than there need be no Ladder.

Ladder system should be in
should be hardcore mode only
no special items
3 month season
end of season top 5% of each class gets some sort of vanity item that can be used for transmog
No AH
Ladder is seperated from non ladder
End of a season your character gets seated back into a normal hardcore character

Thats what i'd like to see anyways but all in all i'm up for any sort of ranked leader board style of play that fits with the game in a pve style.

I'm kinda late to the party... But i think Blizzard will implement a paragon ladder since there is no level cap now. Not that interesting in my opinion but i'm sure some people will like it. However, i don't think the concept of ladder and non ladder will even exist. It will just be a leader board showcasing the top 1,000 highest level characters i guess.

The Ladder, despite being discussed to death, is obviously still a subject that people are very interested in discussing and trying to find out a middle ground which will please everyone.

I can't close a thread that is still mostly discussing a Ladder feature. The bickering isn't nowhere like some other forums, and there hasn't been pure direct flaming. Things like those "burden of proof" posts do not take away the merit of arguments presented by both parties.

If people were only talking about Monty Python episodes something that is completely unrelated to Ladder, I could close it for going way off-topic.

I can't just close a thread because people are having a heated discussion about a certain feature. Actually, that is precisely what I shouldn't do in a situation like this.

I've been following this for a few pages/days now. Holding myself back from infracting a member when I saw a small poke in a big argumentative post. I don't wanna kill the excitement and passion of the users discussing this by going all nazi mod, infracting multiple users and locking the thread.

Just so you know that I'm monitoring this, and trying to keep the discussion alive.

Okay, I'll chime in with my opinion. I'd like to see a ladder. No level resets required.

When Reaper of Souls hit. There should be 4 realms. Non-ladder SC and non-ladder HC (Auctionhouses are the same as now). And then there is ladder SC and ladder HC. Neither of them have auctionhouses and things are bind on pickup/sessionbound (maybe unidentified items and crafting materials could be traded?).

To compete in ladder, you'd have to make a new character and selecting ladder (either HC or SC). The ladder seasons could vary between 1 week to 3 months and have special rules/events similar to Path of Exile. When the ladders reset, characters are either deleted or transfered to non-ladder. It's simple.

I don't think there should be any ladder/non-ladder specific items but I do think that you should recieve rewards on non-ladder if you place in the top 100 for example. Ladder should be fun, but not nessecary

edit: having ladder only being HC (to prevent botters from winning) might kill it for many people so here is a suggestion. Softcore ladders rewards could be cosmetic, cool looking items that don't have a stat effect on your character. HC ladder rewards could be certain really good or items with exclusive effects.