OK, first off. Let me tell you that I'm no vigilante. And as selfish as it may seem, I'm no longer the type to render aid to strangers for fear that my helping hand may only cause me undue civil troubles after the fact. I want to pose a hypothetical situation that is based "loosely" on a recent event and ask what would you do?

Lets say that one Monday afternoon you stop off at the local discount store to pickup your weekly/monthly supply of laundry detergent, dishwashing soap, and other household supplies. While putting bags away into your vehicle you see another shopper who is obviously being setup for a robbery but doesn't see it coming. We'll say that you have the skill and opportunity to prevent the robbery by calling the victim's attention to the impending attack and hopefully let them deal with it or just plainly neutralizing the attacker yourself by some non-lethal means. The question is, should you even bother? Morally, the answer is obvious. But those morals seem to have fallen out of favor these days and so I wonder.

Once upon a time, I would have said that as a citizen, you are obligated to help your fellow citizens, period. But recent experiences have shown me that no good deed goes unpunished and so I'm no longer quite as willing to help those unwilling/unable to help themselves. Reason number 456, that I should NOT consider being a police officer.

I ask this question because a friend recently prevented an assault/robbery in a parking lot but broke the thief's wrist and dislocated his shoulder in the process. When the police arrived, all the thief's intended victim could say was that my friend didn't have to be so violent. Now the judge luckily wasn't an idiot and the cvase will never see trial but, that would be victim wanted to sue my friend for mental anguish caused by the brutal display of force in front her and her kids. Nevermind that the robber was a convicted felon with a history of rape, kidnapping, burglary and robbery which means it could have been a whole lot worse had he been able to execute his plan. The whole thing left me wondering if it wouldn't have been better to just let the lady and her kids become food rather than allowing them continue to live.

Should we all just say screw it and not get involved in keeping society safe? Should we just let the bad guys do as they please until the police catch up to them and never bother with defending anyone but ourselves and our families? On the otherhand, had the woman been my mom, I would want someone to try to help her and would be infuriated to know someone had the power to prevent it but chose otherwise. So I'm left wondering, do you let Darwin's theory take over to weed out the timid/weak/unobservant or do we continue to strive for what's right regardless of the finacial/legal risks to ourselves?

_______________________________________
gcmj45acp

"In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them!" -James Yeager

XyZspineZyX

07-08-2003, 02:46 PM

OK, first off. Let me tell you that I'm no vigilante. And as selfish as it may seem, I'm no longer the type to render aid to strangers for fear that my helping hand may only cause me undue civil troubles after the fact. I want to pose a hypothetical situation that is based "loosely" on a recent event and ask what would you do?

Lets say that one Monday afternoon you stop off at the local discount store to pickup your weekly/monthly supply of laundry detergent, dishwashing soap, and other household supplies. While putting bags away into your vehicle you see another shopper who is obviously being setup for a robbery but doesn't see it coming. We'll say that you have the skill and opportunity to prevent the robbery by calling the victim's attention to the impending attack and hopefully let them deal with it or just plainly neutralizing the attacker yourself by some non-lethal means. The question is, should you even bother? Morally, the answer is obvious. But those morals seem to have fallen out of favor these days and so I wonder.

Once upon a time, I would have said that as a citizen, you are obligated to help your fellow citizens, period. But recent experiences have shown me that no good deed goes unpunished and so I'm no longer quite as willing to help those unwilling/unable to help themselves. Reason number 456, that I should NOT consider being a police officer.

I ask this question because a friend recently prevented an assault/robbery in a parking lot but broke the thief's wrist and dislocated his shoulder in the process. When the police arrived, all the thief's intended victim could say was that my friend didn't have to be so violent. Now the judge luckily wasn't an idiot and the cvase will never see trial but, that would be victim wanted to sue my friend for mental anguish caused by the brutal display of force in front her and her kids. Nevermind that the robber was a convicted felon with a history of rape, kidnapping, burglary and robbery which means it could have been a whole lot worse had he been able to execute his plan. The whole thing left me wondering if it wouldn't have been better to just let the lady and her kids become food rather than allowing them continue to live.

Should we all just say screw it and not get involved in keeping society safe? Should we just let the bad guys do as they please until the police catch up to them and never bother with defending anyone but ourselves and our families? On the otherhand, had the woman been my mom, I would want someone to try to help her and would be infuriated to know someone had the power to prevent it but chose otherwise. So I'm left wondering, do you let Darwin's theory take over to weed out the timid/weak/unobservant or do we continue to strive for what's right regardless of the finacial/legal risks to ourselves?

_______________________________________
gcmj45acp

"In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them!" -James Yeager

XyZspineZyX

07-08-2003, 02:55 PM

Your friend did the right thing in my book. Since I was not there, I will guess that the force used was nessissary. The bimbo lady needsa good slap upside the head. Mental anguish, (insert beep here), give me a break. Maybe your friend should let the attacker start to take a round out of the person first, that way when she screams for help he will look like a hero to her, instead`of a zero.

By not stepping into help, we are just reverting back to the law of the jungle, where the strong rule. The laws were set up to protect the weak, AND the stupid.

<Center>
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif This is why I use AMD /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
http://www3.telus.net/robert/idiot2.jpg

Message Edited on 07/08/0305:57AM by ScrubberManFSJ

XyZspineZyX

07-08-2003, 02:58 PM

The last time I tried to help someone out I took a baseball bat and steel-toed boots to the head. I say watch the back of you and yours but everyone else lives at their own risk. It is not your duty to help anyone else out plus it is not always obvious who the victim and who the criminal is. I once read a story about a woman motorist who feigned a breakdown only to have her accomplice jack the good-natured folks who stopped to help her out.

http://www.nrm.org/illustration/obrien/tyson.jpg

<center><marquee>******Where are the weapons of mass destruction?******Where are the weapons of mass destruction?******Where are the weapons of mass destruction?******Where are the weapons of mass destruction?******<center><marquee>

XyZspineZyX

07-08-2003, 04:08 PM

what happened MNG, why'd you get messed up like that?

_______________________________________

"Generals dont run; during peace this prompts laughter, during war this prompts panic."

XyZspineZyX

07-08-2003, 04:51 PM

Olegious wrote:
- what happened MNG, why'd you get messed up like
- that?

One of my friends came to school with a baseball to exact revenge on some guy who had robbed him a few days before. He was swinging the bat around and threatening the guy with a serious pounding. I saw the janitor peak into the cafeteria and leave again presumably to call the police. Since my friend had already had several run-ins with the law I put my hand on his shoulder and told him to calm down before he got into trouble. One of his friends (who did not know me) jumped me and we started fighting. The janitor came back with one of his friends and joined in to what at this point had become a mass brawl.

My opponent and I fell to the ground and rolled apart. At this point some other guy started kicking me in the head and my so-called friend turned on me with the bat. He gave me a good working over before somebody grabbed him. I got up with Mr. Boot now turning to using his big ringed fists to tattoo my face. I took two swings at him but unfortunately my arms didn't work very well - they were all bruised from the bat. He turned and fled as did my so-called friend and the rest of his merry band.

I turned around and saw a huge pool of blood on the floor. I remember dimly wondering if it was mine. Turns out it wasn't - the guy my friend was threatening had had his nose smashed in.

http://www.nrm.org/illustration/obrien/tyson.jpg

<center><marquee>******Where are the weapons of mass destruction?******Where are the weapons of mass destruction?******Where are the weapons of mass destruction?******Where are the weapons of mass destruction?******<center><marquee>

XyZspineZyX

07-08-2003, 11:13 PM

Chip wrote:

- Now the judge luckily wasn't an idiot and the cvase will
- never see trial but, that would be victim wanted to sue
- my friend for mental anguish caused by the brutal
- display of force in front her and her kids.

MMMMMNNNNNNNAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!! !!!!!!!!

I SCREAM with RAGE at this...sorry excuse for a human being. Does she deserve to be spared the horror that awaited her? Yes. Because she has children and because no woman deserves to be subject to violent sexual abuse, I am grateful that Chip's friend stepped in and nipped it in the bud. But what stupid, messed up, moneygrabbing, crab-faced, no-good, motherplucking, ungrateful, cross-eyed, frigid, bow-legged, chimpanzee would try to SUE her saviour.

I spit on this woman. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

http://www.jc3.homestead.com/files/sig_slackbladder.jpg

XyZspineZyX

07-09-2003, 12:12 AM

Werd, Slackie

Dumb bimbos /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://www.leetweb.com/publicsigs/deathsig.jpg

XyZspineZyX

07-09-2003, 03:18 AM

I better hope I don't get into that situation, because the way I feel it, NEVER hurt someone, KILL them. My reasoning is that I don't want this guy coming back later and biting me in the ***. If I just hurt someone and get them put in jail, they might get out of jail looking for revenge. Of course, they don't all go out for revenge, but you never know, maybe I will end up stiring some psycho off, and I or worse, my family, might have to pay for that later.

And I don't WANT to kill anyone, but I know if I was in a situation where I had to fend off an attacker, I will either just scare him off and let him get away, but I would not feel this will do justice, or I'll simply kill him. I will never severely injur him and let him get arrested. So I really hope it never comes to that.

<hr>
--"General Hammond, request permission to beat the crap out of this man." -Col. Jack O'Neill -Stargate SG-1
--Capt. Carter: "You think it might be a booby trap?"
â â Teal'c: "Booby?"
--"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to catch up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"
--"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"
--"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

XyZspineZyX

07-09-2003, 04:17 AM

I agree 100% with Mustang. I believe in the eye for an eye, arm for arm thing. No, it isn't very civilized, but neither is the world we live in. I heard a [true] story of a burgler who was breaking into a woman's house, fell thru the skylight, cut his leg open on a butcher knife, sued the woman, and WON. That's horsecrap. I'd like to take a bat to the judge who called that one. That's rediculous (sp). I used to (and in some cases, still do) think that murderers should have to live their life in hell in prison instead of getting the escape of the death penalty. But anymore, I say just kill them they're a waste of oxygen and money. But in cases of brutal serial killers, if I had my way, when they get caught, they should have to endure the most horrendous torture possible for their crimes. Peel off their skin. Turn them into a cripple and then make them live their life. I don't know. But make them pay for what they've done.

As for helping people out - I unfortunetly would have to say that I woudl not. Why? Because no one has ever helped me out in a bad situation. Also, I consider the best and worst thing that could happen. Best: I feel great because I prevented a crime. Worst: I get killed or permanately injured from some freak of nature who is trying to commit the crime. bad over weighs the good, so I'd just stay put.

Just my thoughts.

EDIT: read my signature. it's true i tell you!

<hr width="50%" align="left">c.787
Murphy's Law: If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. Corollary: If there is a worse time for something to go wrong, it will happen then.
c.787@charter.net

Message Edited on 07/08/0310:19PM by c.787

XyZspineZyX

07-10-2003, 04:22 PM

If It was clear to me that someone is in trouble and I can help you can bet on it that I will jump in and help. Of course if the guy has a gun its everyman for himself....I will call the police.. after all I do have a family to take care. I think the law says that you MUST help someone in trouble if you are able, or you could be in trouble for not helping. I am not sure how the law is exactly stated though.

gcmj, what else would you really do though? Would you be able to live with yourself for leaving someone that you do not know in such a predicament because of past experiences with other people? What if that person would be different than that idiotic ***** @$$ **** that is sueing your friend? What if they would have appreciated it instead???

Not questioning you, or judging you at all. I'm just honestly asking that question too. It is a difficult choice.

But I say in the end gcmj, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you would have done something about it despite what you are saying here.

<font color="white"><table style="filter:glow[color=blue, strength=4)"><font size=1>"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
- George Orwell</table><font color="white">
<font color="red">[/b]</u>[/i]</font size>
<marquee bgcolor="#811000"><font color="red"><font size=4>Now in the news................................Ubisoft loses sales due to poor customer service.....................Ubisoft enemies grow %3 today.....................Development team credentials for game company Ubisoft under investigation.....................New patch available for download for Ubisoft's Raven Shield (patch 1.64b) now available.....................New patch released today for Raven Shield by Ubisoft is causing catastrophic computer failures.....................Monitors and computers worldwide explode in residential and business areas due to game "Raven Shield" malfunction.....................Author Tom Clancy gets arrested today as he enters game company Ubisoft offices, and strikes a developer several times.....................Man wanted for murder takes hostages in Montana home; police say that the demands are that Ubisoft stops screwing customers over. The police abruptly stopped negotiating when they found out his demands, and sent in the SWAT team in fear that the demands were impossible.....................Ex-Police Chief Charles Moose tells reporters of why he didn't write about his lousy experiences with game company Ubisoft. Moose says he will have to write another book just about that</marquee><font color="white">[/b]</u>[/i]</font size>

XyZspineZyX

07-10-2003, 05:18 PM

Even where a crime isn't involved the same dilema can occur when no EMS is available and an off duty doctor, nurse, EMT, etc. helps the person and possibly in some states risks legal action being taken against them.

XyZspineZyX

07-10-2003, 10:48 PM

Ambassador wrote:
- gcmj, what else would you really do though? Would
- you be able to live with yourself for leaving
- someone that you do not know in such a predicament
- because of past experiences with other
- people? What if that person would be different than
- that idiotic ***** @$$ **** that is sueing your
- friend? What if they would have appreciated it
- instead???
-
- Not questioning you, or judging you at all. I'm just
- honestly asking that question too. It is a difficult
- choice.
-
- But I say in the end gcmj, correct me if I'm wrong,
- but I think you would have done something about it
- despite what you are saying here.
-

I want to believe that I would help. Like I said, morally speaking, it should be obvious that you should help. But in light of my own experience as well a those of others, I'm starting to wonder if that is the wise thing to do anymore. I guess I'm just wandering if I need to re-examine my critiera for deciding whether or not to get involved. Prehaps it should boil down to whether there is a threat to the public at large versus a locallized threat to a single individual as the deciding factor.

_______________________________________
gcmj45acp

"In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them!" -James Yeager

XyZspineZyX

07-16-2003, 11:12 PM

All of this reminds me of an event that happened back when i was 11. A friend and I thought it would be fun to knock on people doors then run away. So we knocked on the door of a house that some guy lived in by himself (very strange man). I got away but my friend was caught, the man stormed out of his house and started swearing and cursing at my friend then picked him up by his shirt. I decided not to be a coward since i was involved as well, so i approached the man and calmly told him to put my friend down and that we were sorry and it would never happen again. What does he do? He drops my friend on the grass ,pushes me to the ground then kicks me in the knee and starts threatening me. Then he went back to his house. The police came and talked to him after that, i dont know what they did to him but hes moved away. sorry for the pointless post just felt like telling it hehe

I am very careful as well when it comes to helping strangers. You can always do something though, without putting yourself at high risk. Depends on the situation of course, but I always have a cell phone, so I can call the cops. And many times it can suffice to make yourself known and the bad guy will bolt in fear of being caught. But I try not to put myself in positions where I am at risk myself.

The reason I dont want to get involved is because like Demon said, I'd prefer putting the sorry bastish out of his misery rather than have him return and mess me up. Alas, Swedish courts dont look favorably on that kind of behaviour, so... Further more, in Sweden you would likely get sued by the bad guy and get fined or end up in jail for using to much force, not matter how much / little force you used.

I have some admiration for certain people though. Like a National guardsman who one night woke up from two burglars trying to breach his door with a fire axe. In his home was his wife and two young kids. So he grabbed his SMG and went out into the hallway and waited a minute or two until they got the door opened. When they stepped in, he shot the first guy in the chest point blank and then threw a hail of bullets after the second guy as he ran. Of course, he got sentenced for it. But still, I cant help but to fear if I wouldnt have been capable of a similar act had it been me and my family potentially on the line.

XyZspineZyX

07-17-2003, 04:16 PM

gcmj45acp wrote, "So I'm left wondering, do you let Darwin's theory take over...?"

To do that would be to defend the woman. Your friend is the strong, and the attcker is the weak.

XyZspineZyX

07-17-2003, 08:37 PM

But Darwin's theory has nothing to do with that. "Survival of the fittest" really has nothing to do with actual strength or the ability to win fights or kill people. All that really talks about is the ability to bare healthy offspring. Mainly, the ones with the most healthy offspring is considered the fittest.

Um, sorry to ruin the whole "coolness" of that phrase, but just a heads up guys. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<hr>
--"General Hammond, request permission to beat the crap out of this man." -Col. Jack O'Neill -Stargate SG-1
--Capt. Carter: "You think it might be a booby trap?"
â â Teal'c: "Booby?"
--"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to catch up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"
--"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"
--"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

XyZspineZyX

07-18-2003, 06:26 AM

longinius wrote:

- I have some admiration for certain people though.
- Like a National guardsman who one night woke up from
- two burglars trying to breach his door with a fire
- axe. In his home was his wife and two young kids. So
- he grabbed his SMG and went out into the hallway and
- waited a minute or two until they got the door
- opened. When they stepped in, he shot the first guy
- in the chest point blank and then threw a hail of
- bullets after the second guy as he ran. Of course,
- he got sentenced for it. But still, I cant help but
- to fear if I wouldnt have been capable of a similar
- act had it been me and my family potentially on the
- line.

I am an American, the laws are about the same here, if that situation ever happened to me, I would shoot them through the door. I have no pity for those who seek disorder and cahos (mush less crime). I would rather protect my family. Sinve when have we had to play "fair" with those who threaten our loved ones?