is our 31st ranked defense from 2011. The elephant has actually been around, arguably, since 2005/2006. I think most would agree that the problems with the defense still involve the pass rush, inability to cover, defensive play calling/scheme, and lack of player talent.

IMO, the ability to create a decent pass rush via DE/OLB is a little more important than getting a shut-down cornerback or a harrison-type S. The rationale is that if the Patriots can't get pressure on the opposing QB, opposing receivers will eventually get open; which can allow average QBs look like Drew Brees.

With the draft coming up, and free agency still available, will the Patriots see any success in tackling the White Elephant this year? Or will the Patriots be super conservative, trade down for future picks - and continue the cycle of futility?

is our 31st ranked defense from 2011. The elephant has actually been around, arguably, since 2005/2006. I think most would agree that the problems with the defense still involve the pass rush, inability to cover, defensive play calling/scheme, and lack of player talent. IMO, the ability to create a decent pass rush via DE/OLB is a little more important than getting a shut-down cornerback or a harrison-type S. The rationale is that if the Patriots can't get pressure on the opposing QB, opposing receivers will eventually get open; which can allow average QBs look like Drew Brees. With the draft coming up, and free agency still available, will the Patriots see any success in tackling the White Elephant this year? Or will the Patriots be super conservative, trade down for future picks - and continue the cycle of futility?Posted by anonymis

As I've stated numerous times in other threads, BB has been gunning for that "White Elephant" over the past four (4) years. Since 2008, he has spent eleven (11) high draft choices to fix his "D".

The problem with the "D" isn't that BB has ignored the problem...the problem lies with the poor selections the Patriots have made in the draft to fix the "D".

Here's a list of the high draft picks that the Pats have used, attempting to "fix" the defense:

According to Wikipedia: A white elephant is an idiom for a valuable but burdensome possession of which its owner cannot dispose and whose cost (particularly cost of upkeep) is out of proportion to its usefulness or worth. The term derives from the story that the kings of Siam (now Thailand) were accustomed to make a present of one of these animals to courtiers who had rendered themselves obnoxious, in order to ruin the recipient by the cost of its maintenance. In modern usage, it is an object, scheme, business venture, facility, etc., considered to be without use or value.[1]

Not a bad elephant though when it makes it to the Super Bowl and only gives up 17 points.Posted by kansaspatriot

Not saying the Patriots team won't have a good record again. They are currently built to beat most average teams. So, in your opinion, what would help the team actually win a SB again? Teams like the old colts or old chargers were built in a similar way...put up lots of points, win a lot of regular season games, lose somewhere along the playoffs because they ended up facing teams that had a decent pass rush and could cover. Sound familiar?

In Response to Re: The White Elephant In The Room : Not saying the Patriots team won't have a good record again. They are currently built to beat most average teams. So, in your opinion, what would help the team actually win a SB again? Posted by anonymis

The offense scoring more than 19 points, like they did during the season.

Actually, the elephant (doesn't have to be white) is our finesse, flawed Coltsesque offense which in turn puts any of our Ds on the field for too long or over and over in succession. Not debatable anymore, as we now know.

That's really the flaw. The flaw isn't on the defensive side of the ball.

Every team has a right to start over and lay a foundation to build from, including NE, and BB has done that here whether the irrational fans (led by Tony Mazz, ESPN or Michael Felger) want to admit that or not. Those types had their day of misery in the sun, so to speak, but those days are over, as proven by how the Pats D played in the postseason.

You don't have a bad D and attend a SB in the NFL. Sorry. Doesn't exist. There has never been a bad D to attend a SB in NFL history. It's impossible for a team's offense to overcompensate for their own bad D and get to a SB.

And we know what really happened in the playoffs, too. Brady and the offense only looked great against a weak Denver D. That was it.

NE ended up with a "#4 ranked D in 2007" (after being a #1 D for most of the year) and it was essentially the same personnel as they had in 2006. Fast forward to 2011, and NE's 31st ranked D (ranked by yards allowed in a game, which is borderline meaningless), was as effective as 2007s defense with future HOFers on the team. The lone difference was the 2007 D had the luxury of playing with massive leads while the 2011 D was on the field constantly due to a skittish offense going 3 and out over and over and over, sometimes not even scoring any points in the first half.

Do we really need to bring this stuff up again? Just admit the offense was far more of a problem than the media led the average fan to believe. Brady is nice to the media, BB is not, so they bash BB and not Brady. Very simple.

The "ranking" of the 2011 D is an aberration, most notably for the fact there was a lockout, where all offenses were ahead of all Ds. Add in a myriad of injuries or issues on D, and a discombobulated mix of personnel didn't help. So, the ranking aspect is nothing more than fodder for morons at ESPN to rant and rave about as way of trying to disparage BB as a defensive coach. This has become a fact at this point.

I am still lauging at the D more than holding its own in the most watched sporting event in the world (the Super Bowl) while our offense could barely move the ball or put points in the board other than the 3rd qtr.

What will likely happen in 2012 is, the pass rush will yet again be improved as it has been from 2009, into 2010 and then last year. That's 2 seasons of improvement. Carter should be ok to resign and BB will hopefully secure a 3rd down rusher in a Mark Anderson type, if not someone else in the draft who can cause some havoc in the mix.

You're correct in saying the D needs that kind of infusion more so than some Ty Law type CB added in, but they also need some infusion on the back end for CHung. people are severely underestimating the base of this defense. McCourty is a lot more the player he was in 2010 v.s. 2011, Dowling looked totally legit last year to me, and guy like Sterling Moore will be interesting to watch at CB now. I'm not a fan if Will Allen, but apparently BB is.

Ideally, a top notch DE and a top notch FS are needed on D. NE's D is a lot closer to being a upper end AFC D than some want to admit.

Get a legit lead RB in here and run it more so than you have on offense in recent years, and I'd bet we're seeing this team do no worse than 13-3 season in the next few years.

And we know what a #1 seed looks like in Foxborough in January with experienced defenses.

Thanks TBF12 for the laugh, But Ryan is a PIG not an elephant. Elephants are smart and work together he on the other hand is stupid, self-centered and just plain old ugly. So I guess even saying he's a pig isn't fair to that animal either.

Rex Ryan was on ESPN the other day raving about how great Mike Tannenboob is preparing for the draft. I was in tears. One of the funniest statements I've ever heard on ESPN.Posted by BassFishing

I would imagine the Jets war room is filled with pictures of players on a wall at one end and a table with darts at the other end. Maybe they are going to switch it up this year and bring in Tebow to draw draft picks out of a hat.

I go by what I see and I read that from him via his agent's comments through their beatwriters. I know some on here seem to think I know nothing about the NFL, but the fact is, the Jets are hilariously as mismanaged as any NFL team right now.

Their stupid owner wanted to do Hard Knocks again and even Rex Ryan rejected that idea. That's how far gone the Jets are right now.

In all honesty, Revis is the REAL problem for the Jets. He really is. He's arguably their best player, and a leader on D in the locker room, but his constant whining and selfish primadonna behavior is what allows the others to behave the way they do. Talk about an elephant in the Jets room.

It helps stoke the drama with Holmes, Cromartie, Bart Scott, Sanchez, etc. Every player is so immature on that team, including their leaders and their most expensive players (minus Mangold and Harris).

He tries to have it both ways by acting all annoyed with their locker room drama, but just who is helping cause it? Revis. The media refuses to call him out, too, because they've awkwardly coined him this all time great CB in his second year of his career. So, they can't call him out because it compromises the rhetoric they've thrown at the wall with him.

And can Revis tell us a team that won a SB in the cap era with a CB being paid 20 million+ per year?

Of course he can't. As long as Revis is in NY being paid that salary, they ain't winning jack squat. If he was serious about trying to win something, he wouldn't be threatening hold outs every other year.

well, if by white elephant you are referring to big things that need to be addressed, there's more than one.

d is definitely one of them... but on this d the critical issue is not what most of you think. it's not just the players, it goes deeper than that. it goes all the way to the philosophy - bend don't break. the pats is predictable in rushing no more than three DLs on 3rd and long. that is not just a payer issue.

i think this version of bdb is very passive and consistently that way, and other teams know it already. opposing o already figured out that with all the smoke and mirror, the pass rush is less aggressive than it would appear, so they can afford to be patient with regard to their WRs hitting the seams.

i am not saying they should go tot he opposite, but i think they need to be less predictable.

the philosophy adjustment will yield a big improvement, but not enough if the goal is to be a top 10 d. they will need more talented players. and every position on this team could use an upgrade.

that said, the o has its issues too. i don't buy the best scoring offense argument. best scoring stats are useless if it can't score more well against good Ds, particularly in playoffs.

there are two o issues that i think are most critical - the inability to develop a wide out threat and the inability to run the ball against good Ds. all these boil down to them being predictable on o too.

in this case the root has more to do with a lack of determination to develop o capabilities outside of of their comfort zone - tb's passing down the middle.

players on d and getting one wide out threat are the only issues that needs to be addressed in the draft. others can be addressed after.

I don't see the D as bend, but don't break. Bend but don't break is basically conceding FGs, which wasn't the case much this past year. They actually ran a 4-3 more so than at any time in BB's tenure here and ran it pretty well with Carter doing a nice job at DE.

Also, I completely disagree with the D being predictable. There is nothing predictable about a D that can run a 3-4 or 4-3 on a dime with various personnel going back and forth in and out of man or zone coverages to confuse QBs. That's really the backbone of BB's Ds and why he's such a genius and why it's hard to get all defenders on a roster playing as one within that. The problem this past year, and you have to be fair here, is that there was a rash of injuries and new bodies (again) trying to do what BB wants on the fly, all at once.

He keeps things simple and vanilla early in the year and then starts to see what he can "get away with" so to speak before the postseason.

This is what the media and some of our fans don't get. Each our offense and defense are complex systems. It's takes more time to oil the machine, so to speak. People see BB on the sidelines and automatically think he'll be fielding the '85 Bears. It doesn't work like that. It's not like he's been drafting in the top 10 like the Texans or 49ers the last 8 years in a row, either. So, he's not always drafting uber-elite personnel to work with here.

Also, it's not a 4-3 defense that just tells their DEs to rush the passer and pin their ears back like we see in Indy or a team like that.

The advantage with this kind of a D and what SHOULD be the case with the offense is the ability to play many various styles from week to week or even from half to half or qtr to qtr.

When people say "BB is great at adjustments", he's great at it because he knows he can do it. Some coaches don't have the ability, care enough or have the patience to build deep rosters with versatility like that. Personally, I think it's a big reason why we see 10+ win teams here every year before the season even plays out.

Look how bad NE's D was in 2002. It was transitioning from an old base in 2001 but BB had key components he could use with experience heading into 2003. Then he made small, but largely impactful FA moves to circle the wagons on the roster.

The difference is now, his D is much younger than say 2003, but the base players now actually have a boatload of experience early in their careers. All the Pats greats on D weren't "great" until 2003, well into their careers.

Nothing personal, but you're sort of blind if you don't think the base of this D is becoming a young, electric D for years to come now. The painful base building process is now over.

BB isn't really supposed to pull off what he just did. No GM really is in this cap era.

In the end, the elephant remains our offense and the philosophy. I can sit here right now and say we'll lose no more than 4 games in 2012, but what I care about is how our offense is run in January/February.

Actually, the elephant (doesn't have to be white) is our finesse, flawed Coltsesque offense which in turn puts any of our Ds on the field for too long or over and over in succession. Not debatable anymore, as we now know. That's really the flaw. The flaw isn't on the defensive side of the ball. Every team has a right to start over and lay a foundation to build from, including NE, and BB has done that here whether the irrational fans (led by Tony Mazz, ESPN or Michael Felger) want to admit that or not. Those types had their day of misery in the sun, so to speak, but those days are over, as proven by how the Pats D played in the postseason. You don't have a bad D and attend a SB in the NFL. Sorry. Doesn't exist. There has never been a bad D to attend a SB in NFL history. It's impossible for a team's offense to overcompensate for their own bad D and get to a SB. And we know what really happened in the playoffs, too. Brady and the offense only looked great against a weak Denver D. That was it. NE ended up with a "#4 ranked D in 2007" (after being a #1 D for most of the year) and it was essentially the same personnel as they had in 2006. Fast forward to 2011, and NE's 31st ranked D (ranked by yards allowed in a game, which is borderline meaningless), was as effective as 2007s defense with future HOFers on the team. The lone difference was the 2007 D had the luxury of playing with massive leads while the 2011 D was on the field constantly due to a skittish offense going 3 and out over and over and over, sometimes not even scoring any points in the first half. Do we really need to bring this stuff up again? Just admit the offense was far more of a problem than the media led the average fan to believe. Brady is nice to the media, BB is not, so they bash BB and not Brady. Very simple. The "ranking" of the 2011 D is an aberration, most notably for the fact there was a lockout, where all offenses were ahead of all Ds. Add in a myriad of injuries or issues on D, and a discombobulated mix of personnel didn't help. So, the ranking aspect is nothing more than fodder for morons at ESPN to rant and rave about as way of trying to disparage BB as a defensive coach. This has become a fact at this point. I am still lauging at the D more than holding its own in the most watched sporting event in the world (the Super Bowl) while our offense could barely move the ball or put points in the board other than the 3rd qtr. What will likely happen in 2012 is, the pass rush will yet again be improved as it has been from 2009, into 2010 and then last year. That's 2 seasons of improvement. Carter should be ok to resign and BB will hopefully secure a 3rd down rusher in a Mark Anderson type, if not someone else in the draft who can cause some havoc in the mix. You're correct in saying the D needs that kind of infusion more so than some Ty Law type CB added in, but they also need some infusion on the back end for CHung. people are severely underestimating the base of this defense. McCourty is a lot more the player he was in 2010 v.s. 2011, Dowling looked totally legit last year to me, and guy like Sterling Moore will be interesting to watch at CB now. I'm not a fan if Will Allen, but apparently BB is. Ideally, a top notch DE and a top notch FS are needed on D. NE's D is a lot closer to being a upper end AFC D than some want to admit. Get a legit lead RB in here and run it more so than you have on offense in recent years, and I'd bet we're seeing this team do no worse than 13-3 season in the next few years. And we know what a #1 seed looks like in Foxborough in January with experienced defenses.Posted by BassFishing

Excellent points.. Several of the ESPN "experts" like Dilfer and a few others said throughout the season that the Patriots defense was so bad that they have no chance to make the super bowl. Its true that you don't get to the super bowl with a "bad" defense, that's exactly what the Colts had in all of those years of failure. Once their D improved they made it and won a super bowl.

The D improved all season as some of us predicted and will only get better next year. Yards allowed per game is not an accurate stat to rate a defense. Points allowed is a lot more telling. The Patriots let teams move down the field piling up yardage in the 4th quarter with a big lead. Imo the offense needs to become more diverse and have fewer 3 and outs while eating less than a minute of clock, that's very l tough on a defense.

Next season is the year this latest rebuilding comes to fruition, they are going to have another run like the 2003-2004 seasons.

...Also, I completely disagree with the D being predictable. There is nothing predictable about a D that can run a 3-4 or 4-3 on a dime with various personnel going back and forth in and out of man or zone coverages to confuse QBs. That's really the backbone of BB's Ds and why he's such a genius and why it's hard to get all defenders on a roster playing as one within that. ...Posted by BassFishing

sure they can run 3-4 or 4-3 on a dime. that does help them generate a lot of third and longs. unfortunately it's in third down situations that they struggle with (28th or 29th if i am not mistaken).

3rd and long happens to be when they are most predictable. it does not matter that they show a million looks pre snap. post snap it does not matter that they show a million coverages. ultimately the pats rush three guys in those situations. a lot of teams understand that now and all the pre snap smoke and mirrors are treated as noise that they have learned to filter out. they focus on figuring who the three rushers are and focus pass protection on those. that buys the qb enough time to find the open receiver.

that's been a pretty effective strategy against the pats, that even some pretty average QBs looked like MVP candidates against them.

It's a problem. With those first two picks they can take care of a couple of issues. Harrison Smith is shooting up the charts these days. I wonder if it's due to need of the position. The Pats aren't the only team in search of a safety. Along with Smith the Pats will have a good look at Worthy, Still, Reyes at DT. Branch, Jones and Curry at DE/LB. McClellin, Brown and Hightower at LB. That's a lot. Not to mention Janoris Jenkins who depending on investigations and interviews will drop further or not.

Lots to get excited about here. Maybe the Pats can knock this thing down to a baby white elephant.

In Response to Re: The White Elephant In The Room : sure they can run 3-4 or 4-3 on a dime. that does help them generate a lot of third and longs. unfortunately it's in third down situations that they struggle with (28th or 29th if i am not mistaken). 3rd and long happens to be when they are most predictable. it does not matter that they show a million looks pre snap. post snap it does not matter that they show a million coverages. ultimately the pats rush three guys in those situations. a lot of teams understand that now and all the pre snap smoke and mirrors are treated as noise that they have learned to filter out. they focus on figuring who the three rushers are and focus pass protection on those. that buys the qb enough time to find the open receiver. that's been a pretty effective strategy against the pats, that even some pretty average QBs looked like MVP candidates against them.Posted by seattlepat70

Sure, and that was the case in 2007 and in particular 2008 or 2009, too. I think BB has built the hard part, IMO. The hard part is gathering a bunch of younger core players together at once as your base. The oldest base player here is Wilfork. Not bad. Look at other supposed elite AFC teams on D and then look at NE.

Only Cincy, Houston and a KC have nice young Ds. Their slightly ahead of the Pats, but I am telling you, NE is right there ascending with a legit, young D.

I happen to like guys like Mayo, Spikes, Chung, McCourty, Dowling (brief look we had), Arrington, Moore, etc. They battle. I like Flecther, Ninkovich, etc. I think he has nice pieces as a base. He needs infusion and youth at DE and OLB. Safety as well. Kyle Love is a solid player. Pryor looked very good before his injury.

But, getting a slew of younger players in here to know what to do as a unit, maybe even as far as two full units deep is a big deal. You either buy it via FA or get lucky in FA with smart, system types or you lay the fondation the way BB just did.

For every Wheatley, Butler or Crable miss, he has Arrington, Moore and a Ninkovich. I thought NE's D was old and slow in 2008, but had experience. That meant the old and slow factor outweighed the value of experience.

2009...transition year.

2010. VERY young and thin. Learning year. BUt, they have the speed and athleticism they were missing.

Mock it all day long, but if BB nails his DE or OLB picks in the draft and maybe nails his Safety pick or moves, he's not as far off as everyone is claiming and that 3rd down D issue won't be as noticeable in upcoming seasons. And who knows, maybe Cunningham is used some in a 3-4 set like he showed some signs of being healthy and adding dept there as well. Trevor Scott is an interesting signing and Fanene is a solid move to boot.

I think some people are just having a hard time being patient with how BB chose to build/re-build. I prefer it this way. I would have been cringing at BB's approach if he pulled a Skins or a Jets approach. It doesn't work.

It's been frustrating at times, but it would have been worse if he shot his wad and ended up making major mistakes in the process. He hasn't. He's overpaid for no one, so even an injured Leigh Bodden thing isn't dehabilitating to the cap.

With regards to 3rd downs, it's been better in recent years. Carter was a great signing, as was Anderson. We missed Carter in the SB, no doubt.

In 2008, JT O'Sullivan looked like an All Pro when our Bruchis, Seymours and Vrabels weren't getting to him in SF that year.

In Response to Re: The White Elephant In The Room : Excellent points.. Several of the ESPN "experts" like Dilfer and a few others said throughout the season that the Patriots defense was so bad that they have no chance to make the super bowl. Its true that you don't get to the super bowl with a "bad" defense, that's exactly what the Colts had in all of those years of failure. Once their D improved they made it and won a super bowl. The D improved all season as some of us predicted and will only get better next year. Yards allowed per game is not an accurate stat to rate a defense. Points allowed is a lot more telling. The Patriots let teams move down the field piling up yardage in the 4th quarter with a big lead. Imo the offense needs to become more diverse and have fewer 3 and outs while eating less than a minute of clock, that's very l tough on a defense. Next season is the year this latest rebuilding comes to fruition, they are going to have another run like the 2003-2004 seasons. Posted by sporter81

Absolutely.

The offense helps the D and vice versa. Some of the board realizes this, some are very new to football and its concepts. lol

... He needs infusion and youth at DE and OLB. Safety as well. Kyle Love is a solid player. Pryor looked very good before his injury.

DE, OLB and S...totally agree. that said, i want them to draft people who will give it a good fight at the starting spot - not more depth fillers. to me i want them to keep working at raising the bar at the starting spot.

love, i agree as well. i fully appreciate how he played in the playoffs

pryor, i'd have to see again. i just did not see him stand out. it does not mean he was not solid. i may just have not been paying attention.

It's been frustrating at times, but it would have been worse if he shot his wad and ended up making major mistakes in the process. He hasn't. He's overpaid for no one, so even an injured Leigh Bodden thing isn't dehabilitating to the cap.