Nja

While (me) growing up my Swedish neighbour's young teenage son disappeared for a couple of months and the parents hardly batted an eyelid. Then I was consumed with envy but these days I wonder why. BTW They didn't half make a mean chocolate torte. The Swedes have developed a hatred of conflict. Swedish society is such that nothing should be in excess and the Swedes go out of their way to ensure that everything is done on consensual lines. The works coffee break is a hallowed institution and Swedes drink more coffee per head than any other nation. At an individual level superiors rarely instruct subordinates directly but rather invite them to do things and it is almost impossible to be sacke dfor incompetence. Direct, challenging or negative speech is frowned upon. The Swedes have developed many polite ways of indicating disagreement including "this may be difficult" or "Nja" - combining the Swedish words for yes (ja) and no (nej) - when they really mean "no" and "Tja", which means something like "it doesn't look like I'll be able to do that". There's nothing worse in Swedish culture than thinking you are better than anyone else. The Swedes have always been freedom-loving egalitarians since Viking times. The King was referred to as "First AMong Equals" and Viking women had a higher social status than anywhere else. But in contrast to the Vikings modern Swedes are some of the least war-like people in Europe . The last time Swedes went to war was in 1814. Since then Swedes has espoused the doctrine of "nonalignment in peace aiming at neutrality in war". Solidarity with The Third World has been the central theme of it's foreign policy. At the and of the 19th century Sweden was the poorest country in Europe , a peasant society with no big cities. By the 1970s it had risen to the fourth richest country in the world. There's another thread running on Ayn Rand's philosophy. I was just wondering why the Swedish Model combining growth with social progress seems to have failed it's future generations. [ December 23, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

HS Thomas
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posted Dec 23, 2003 02:50:00

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Speaking of future generations, Linus Torvalds is a Swede speaking Finn. If Linus is Finnish, why is his birth language Swedish? Finland has a significant (about 6%) Swedish-speaking minority population. They call themselves ``finlandssvensk'' or ``finlandssvenskar'' and consider themselves Finns; many of their families have lived in Finland for centuries. Swedish is one of Finland's two official languages. What is Linus's middle name? Many people seem to think think Linus's middle name is "God". A few claim it ought to be Eric. But in fact his middle name is `Benedict'. He doesn't use it much. And Sweden is not alone in being left with a pre-dominant feeling of failing future generations and trying to maintain a culture of separateness from the rest of Europe.

"In September 2001 the Copenhagen Police reported that in 68.3 percent of the reported instances of rape, the suspects had a foreign ethnic background.The same general pattern is found in the other Scandinavian countries..."

I wonder if its because of immigration or due the lack of immigrants integrating well into the society. It would be interesting to see similar data from the USA, UK or Canada where immigrants are a part of the society. However, I agree (illegal) immigrants from inferior (economically that is) states to prosperous western states are generally responsible for a wide range of crimes � I was once ripped off by Romanians in Ireland. (Another Romanian friend of mine confirmed that they are Romanian, don�t know if they were legally admitted to Ireland or not) . However, it would really hurt to see if someone generalizes all Romanians as con-artists and treats my hardworking Romanian friend differently. Similarly, when (if) I visit Nordic states, spending my hard-earned money, to see that part of my globe, if they treat me differently for being 'foreign', that would hurt too. Just some thoughts!

HS Thomas: But in contrast to the Vikings modern Swedes are some of the least war-like people in Europe . The last time Swedes went to war was in 1814. Since then Swedes has espoused the doctrine of "nonalignment in peace aiming at neutrality in war". Solidarity with The Third World has been the central theme of it's foreign policy.

Odd, that the foreign policy of peace-lovers would be based on solidarity with the Third World, given that the Third World includes the world's most war-loving countries. :roll:

Herb Slocomb: Agreed, there is a serious problem with racism in Sweden and other Nordic countries : "In September 2001 the Copenhagen Police reported that in 68.3 percent of the reported instances of rape, the suspects had a foreign ethnic background. The same general pattern is found in the other Scandinavian countries..."

If the majority of victims raped by Swedes were third-world immigrants, that would indeed suggest a serious problem with racism. All the moreso if the Swedish police refer to the _victims_ as "suspects." Or is it the swarthy immigrants who are raping Swedish women? Could Swedes indeed be so politically correct that they consider it racist to complain when a foreigner rapes them?

Ashok Mash: However, it would really hurt to see if someone generalizes all Romanians as con-artists and treats my hardworking Romanian friend differently.

Are you suggesting that Gypsies are all con-artists? [ December 23, 2003: Message edited by: WorldCitizen ]

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Frank Silbermann
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posted Dec 23, 2003 11:29:00

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WorldCitizen: Are you suggesting that Gypsies are all con-artists?

That was the joke!

HS Thomas
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posted Dec 23, 2003 16:58:00

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Still trying to get at the root of the Swede problem, Swedish culture is a mix of emancipation and paternalism. The state keeps a watchful eye on the limits of Swede libertarianism. The first country to introduce unisex public saunas and 90% of the population have beep before marriage. Politicians have failed to discourage boozing by heavy alcohol taxation - the Swedes consume more alcohol than any nation except the Finns. In Sweden it is illegal to smack children. The Swedes won't have it any other way and insist their Model is the best. Sweden's success over the past 30 years has been attributed to it's natural wealth in forests, iron ore, hydro power , it's flair for new inventions - the steam turbine, the safety match, the roller bearing, the Tetra Pak. And also by keeping out of WWII it was in a position to supply a devastated Europe with much of it's industrial needs. It as the EU lowest infant mortality rate and longest male-life expectancy. Swedish overall tax-burden is 54% of the Gross Domestic Product whereas Britain's is 34%. These taxes ensure a minimum standard of living and narrows the gap btween different income groups. Women in particular benefit. A couple can take a year off between them for every child they have . During that time , whoever is on leave receives 80% of their salary and have their job kept open. The State of Nja is now 17th in the wealth stakes world-wide. After a brief fling with conservative economics (privatisation and cut-backs) led to a record 15% unemployment which propelled the Social Democrats back into power. Who continued the same program as applied by the conservatives. But the strains are beginning to show giving rise in social tension as you guys aptly described above.So is this the end of Social Democracy ? The lack of smacking may be an indication why the young teenager went AWOL and the parent were not concerned. I am sure there is a strong link there.

frank davis
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posted Dec 23, 2003 17:15:00

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Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:

Or is it the swarthy immigrants who are raping Swedish women?

This is hapenning all across Europe and its one of the reasons right wing politicians are gaining in the polls. Immigrants, who may only be 5% of the population, are committing 40-60% of the crimes. With those types of stats you have to wonder who amongst the immigrants is not a criminal.

Could Swedes indeed be so politically correct that they consider it racist to complain when a foreigner rapes them?

Norway is also experiencing these same issues, and a few years ago a commission was studying the problems of these rapes. Their recommendation : Norwegian women should be careful how they dress around muslim men and similar such tripe, in other words, Norwegian society should transform itself so as not to provoke rapes

HS Thomas
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posted Dec 23, 2003 18:19:00

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Crime Statistics as construct : The Case of Swedish Rape Statistics The article shows that while Sweden has 3 times the average in Europe of police registered rape cases. Some cases did not constitute crimes , and others did not have proof that there was criminal mis-conduct. Sweden employs a system of expansive counts when statistical collecting and collation procedures whereas other countries are more restrictive.for e.g according to the article breaking and entry, burglary , rape and homicide may count as 4 crimes in Sweden. The article doesn't highlight rapes by immigrants. These Nordic countries are far more emancipated than the average European country. Toning it down (as one would language) may be a good idea in the interests of the good of society.

Wait a minute, are they saying 68.3% of rapes are done/suspected by foreigners? What the hell? So basically, if I go there, I have 68.3% chances to rape or suspect of raping someone? Err... excuse my french, but what the fuck is going on here!!! [ December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Adrian Yan ]

You have to remember that almost all of the perpetrators are muslim men. There are two possible reasons for this 1. Muslim women are normally kept under lock and key therefore creating a high level of sexual frustration amongst muslim men. 2. Muslim law states that a man can be found guilty of rape only if there are 4 "men" who will serve as witnesses to the crime. These two factors contribute significantly.. However other countries such as France and Italy are complaining of high crimes against women by immigrant Africans. I dont know the religion of these people..

Wait a minute, are they saying 68.3% of rapes are done/suspected by foreigners? What the hell? So basically, if I go there, I have 68.3% chances to rape or suspect of raping someone? Uh, no, it doesn't mean anything like that. The 68.3% is the proportion of rapes, not of foreigners. Foreign rapists can be a high percent of rapists while sill being a low percentage of foreigners. To take an extreme and completely made-up example, if a country had 1000000 people total, and 1000 of them were foreigners, and there were 2 foreign rapist and 1 native born rapists, then foreign rapists would be 66.7% fo all rapists, while being only 0.2% of all foreigners in the country. Don't mix these two numbers up; they're very different things. Note that I'm not saying there isn't a problem here that deserves attention. But it's nowhere near as extreme as you seem to think.

"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister

Adrian Yan
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posted Dec 23, 2003 23:28:00

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Thanks, Jim. But I think this is totally insane. I lived in NYC, most of us are foreigners (those whose family don't go back several generations, I suppose). I'm a supporter of immigration, but if major crimes, especially a heineous crime as rape are done/suspect by foreigners, I would hate foreigners too. In my book, rape is worst than murder, no wonder there is a strong anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe. Even as an open-minded person, I would oppose it too. This is a serious social issue, and I did alot of research in past couple of hours, and I can't seem to find anything that helps resolving the situation besides the extreme right that support shutting down borders. I guess racial profiling over there will be worst than U.S.

1. Muslim women are normally kept under lock and key therefore creating a high level of sexual frustration amongst muslim men. Rape is an act of VIOLENCE!!! (Note 'Violence' being the key word here.) There are plenty of frustrated men, the whole world over. I bet most men in the 18-24 age group are just constantly frustrated, even if they have girlfriends and wives. But most men don't take to violence to settle their sexual frustration. Paul, jew-on-jew hartred in Germany, all the raping Muslims in Sweden, the unnatural gay marriage seekers, the white-supremist equal rights fighters - what is it with you? What is it that we all don't see??? What are you advocating to us?? What is next? :roll: Help enlighten us to the obvious conspiricies we so ignorantly 'just don't get'. You look for trouble in the fringes of society and try map those issues into the roots of mainstream problems. DOES ANYONE ON THIS FORUM, BUY INTO THIS CANDY-COATED BIGOTRY? Paul, what are you so afraid of, that causes you to pick off selective groups and demonize them? What do you lack inside that prevents you from comfortably being your 'own person'? Put another way, what keeps you from comfortably exisiting, mutually exclusive, from other human beings? Only people with sh** on their shoes, need a doormat...

"No one appreciates the very special genius of your conversation as the dog does."

frank davis
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posted Dec 24, 2003 06:42:00

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Originally posted by John Dunn:

Paul, what are you so afraid of, that causes you to pick off selective groups and demonize them?

Maybe it has something to do with reality; unless of course you believe the crime statistics from France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Denmark have all been fabricated to a VERY large degree. In France especially, there has been an ongoing wave of anti-Semetic terror not seen since the Nazis held power in the 1940's, and there is a 'selective group' as you would say behind it. Certain immigrant groups come from cultures were rape is a more common social phenonmena (read previously cited URLs). Note also that, other cultures have significantly lower incidences of rapes (one researcher noted that no one from China or Vietnam had ever been accused of rape in one of the Nordic countries). Perhaps all cultures are not equal. Perhaps some are more evolved, more civilized, and more humane than others. Although, I of course, would never, ever, say, or even think such a thing because I would be "demonized" as "bigot" and I am very scared of that. [ December 24, 2003: Message edited by: herb slocomb ]

John Dunn
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posted Dec 24, 2003 07:28:00

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Maybe it has something to do with reality; What has to do with reality? Paul, continually preaches his doctrine of hatred and that is reality? Why? unless of course you believe the crime statistics from France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Denmark have all been fabricated to a VERY large degree. So does this point to the fact that the Islamic culture is VERY sexually frustrated and therefore out assualting the French, German, Italian, Swiss, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, & Dutch women by means of sex?

In France especially, there has been an ongoing wave of anti-Semetic terror not seen since the Nazis held power in the 1940's, and there is a 'selective group' as you would say behind it. Are you referring to the French government by any chance? Are you implying that my questioning Paul means one can NEVER, EVER, EVER question anyone about anything? That is simply ludicrous!! Amnesty International also goes after 'selective groups', someone should be so kind to let them know they are bigots too. :roll:

Paul McKenna
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posted Dec 24, 2003 10:44:00

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Originally posted by John Dunn: There are plenty of frustrated men, the whole world over. I bet most men in the 18-24 age group are just constantly frustrated, even if they have girlfriends and wives. But most men don't take to violence to settle their sexual frustration.

But can you imagine the level of frustration that would exist in a culture where you can't even see the woman's face?? And you are right most men dont take to violence to settle their sexual frustration but many of the few that do are from one particular group and I just identified it plainly. I can give you a better example to illustrate this.. many dont take to violence to express their anger at America but many of the few that do are muslim.

Paul, jew-on-jew hartred in Germany, all the raping Muslims in Sweden, the unnatural gay marriage seekers, the white-supremist equal rights fighters - what is it with you? What is it that we all don't see??? What are you advocating to us?? What is next? :roll: Help enlighten us to the obvious conspiricies we so ignorantly 'just don't get'. You look for trouble in the fringes of society and try map those issues into the roots of mainstream problems. DOES ANYONE ON THIS FORUM, BUY INTO THIS CANDY-COATED BIGOTRY? Paul, what are you so afraid of, that causes you to pick off selective groups and demonize them? What do you lack inside that prevents you from comfortably being your 'own person'? Put another way, what keeps you from comfortably exisiting, mutually exclusive, from other human beings? Only people with sh** on their shoes, need a doormat

Let me ask you this question.. why is it that you have a problem with truth?? Anyone can handle a "Candy coated" lie.. but its the truth that most people have a problem handling. I'm stating it as plainly as I see it. There is a term for what you want me to do and that is called "Political Correctness". 1.What is wrong with me in asking for equal rights for White people in America? In my view they are being blatantly discriminated against.. and remember I am not a white person myself. 2.I never talk about hatred of jews or anything of that sort. I just came across an interesting article and wished to share the same. If you read something into that well that's not my problem. 3. I'm against Gay marriages and I believe 55% of America is also against it. So are you saying that 55% of America has bought my "bigotry"?? What can I say..? 4. "Raping muslims" in Sweden.. I challenge you to show me facts otherwise. I've stated an analysis purely based on facts. I also suggest you read up on Sharia Law to understand the complexities surrounding muslim culture. You might be appalled at some of the clauses. Do you know that if a woman brings up a rape charge and cannot prove the charged person to be guilty she may be in return sentenced because she committed an act of adultery. Many of the muslims in European countries are coming from Islamic states where sharia law is in practise. Therefore they "might" have a tendency to assume the same superiority they had in the past. John, I am not preaching hatred. I dont hate anyone or any culutre. I have amazing muslim friends, ones whom I cant do without. I have a lot of black friends and I have 2 jewish cousins. So your accusations dont hold water right away. I am simply calling the facts as I see them. There is a term to describe me and that is called "Conservative". I dont candy coat the truth to make them acceptable to others. I call it as I see it... [ December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Paul McKenna ]

HS Thomas
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posted Dec 24, 2003 10:49:00

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In creating this Utopian Nja society the Swedes might have left themselves vulnerable in many ways. 50% of Swedes depend directly on the state, either employed directly or depending on it for welfare benefits. - a vested interest which is growing larger and more confrontationl as the population ages. Many younger Swedes feel unmotivated there is an increase in teenage alcoholism, violence and drug abuse. Sweden has the highest number of homicides per head than any other EU country. This year's referendum campaign was marked by a violence of language and feeeling, and the murder of the Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh.

JD: DOES ANYONE ON THIS FORUM, BUY INTO THIS CANDY-COATED BIGOTRY? I do not think so. Also, I do not think it's a good idea to put "bigot" label on our fellow drivellers. Already certain lines of thinking are excluded from common discourse by "Political Correctness", why do we need this morale censorship here? Where else can we sincerely discuss our politically incorrect ideas? -------------------- "Hug, this is all the home I have but you are welcome to it" --Michael Ernest

2. Muslim law states that a man can be found guilty of rape only if there are 4 "men" who will serve as witnesses to the crime.

you want to say in muslim society if some bad guy is raping a women, people just keep seeing it (rather than helping the victim) so that they can act like a witness and punish the guilty.

Prakash Dwivedi (SCJP2, SCWCD, SCBCD)
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Paul McKenna
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posted Dec 24, 2003 13:02:00

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Here is another link on Rape statistics from all around Europe and US. However I do not make any claims on the veracity of this website.Rape Statistics Prakash, I did not write these laws. I am merely stating what I have understood/read about them. You can google for these sharia laws.. you'll find them quite easily.

Jim Yingst
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posted Dec 24, 2003 13:28:00

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you want to say in muslim society if some bad guy is raping a women, people just keep seeing it (rather than helping the victim) so that they can act like a witness and punish the guilty. Are you saying Paul said this? He didn't. Is this womething you are saying, Prakash?

DOES ANYONE ON THIS FORUM, BUY INTO THIS CANDY-COATED BIGOTRY? It has already been pointed out in a previous forum topic that Paul is a racist as his title "ugly redneck" seems to indicate. John, I suggest ignoring Paul's ignorant rants.

HS Thomas
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posted Dec 24, 2003 15:41:00

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The statistics could well include incidences of male rape by Nordic Madonnalites musta happened after wholesome ABBA -early 80s. Muslim women-rapists is a thought too far-fetched in any country. I dunno which is worse -statisticians or Hollywood ?

Paul McKenna
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posted Dec 24, 2003 17:28:00

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Originally posted by Damien Howard: It has already been pointed out in a previous forum topic that Paul is a racist as his title "ugly redneck" seems to indicate. John, I suggest ignoring Paul's ignorant rants.

Well, instead of name-calling you could perhaps enlighten me on how my analysis is incorrect. Show me facts and statistics proving me wrong and I will gladly post an apology and retract my comments. If I were to use the "liberal logic" (an oxymoron at that) then I CANNOT be a racist. Simply because I am not white! But if I were to point out to racist acts commited against whites by non-whites then I am automatically racist.. (an Uncle Tom?? Or Brother Dick?) This is exactly the reason why I became a conservative because the RIGHT is right and the LEFT is blind!

Paul McKenna
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posted Dec 24, 2003 19:04:00

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I have now realized the perhaps I have been a bit racist at times. I have perhaps given out collective punishment and incorrectly so. So I apologize to all those offended and wish that I had perhaps not made those statements in the way I had made them. However the underlying sentiment has not changed it has simply found a more acceptable and truly correct manner of stating itself.. that is - I do not hate anyone because of their religion / skin color / sexual orientation etc. but I would dislike someone who is a Religious fundamentalist, Hard core left winger, Left wing extremist, racists, xenophobes, la-la liberals etc. So from hereon I will refer to these groups specifically in my posts.

Mapraputa Is
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posted Dec 24, 2003 19:35:00

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If I were to use the "liberal logic" (an oxymoron at that) Let's try to play nice, ah? If you don't understand something, it doesn't necessarily means this "something" is stupid. Is it really so hard for conservatives not to be obnoxious?

Jim Yingst
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posted Dec 24, 2003 20:40:00

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[PmK]: If I were to use the "liberal logic" (an oxymoron at that) then I CANNOT be a racist. Simply because I am not white! I had a somewhat different take on this than Map. I've encountered people who believed this, that racism by definition refers only to oppression by whites of nonwhites. I think such people are extremely confused, and I would tend to sympathize with Paul in mocking them. But I would hardly consider such people to be "the" liberal viewpoint. If Paul thinks all liberals believe this, he's at least as confused as the poor fools he's mocking, IMO....la-la liberals Is this a particular type of liberal, or just another generic insult to all liberals?

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posted Dec 24, 2003 22:04:00

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Jim: I had a somewhat different take on this than Map. Not really different, Jim. I just thought that if we agree that the idea of one race oppressing another is WRONG, than how difficult is it to substitute 'white' for 'black' or whatever, or the other way around, and get the same result? Even if you are a conservative. PM: ... then I CANNOT be a racist. Simply because I am not white! Duh! And now excuse me...!

Paul McKenna
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posted Dec 24, 2003 22:57:00

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Originally posted by Jim Yingst:...la-la liberals Is this a particular type of liberal, or just another generic insult to all liberals?

La-La liberals refer to the totally lunatic liberals.. like the Mother Jones Magazine or something like that. Oh yea! here is a good example of a la-la liberal - Sheila Jackson Lee (D) from Texas. The judges on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in California would also be perfect la-la liberals. I dont have anything normal liberals.. I have a bit of a liberal streak in myself. But everything in moderation is good.. in extremes is a dangerous thing

Prakash Dwivedi
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posted Dec 25, 2003 10:58:00

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Originally posted by Jim Yingst:you want to say in muslim society if some bad guy is raping a women, people just keep seeing it (rather than helping the victim) so that they can act like a witness and punish the guilty. Are you saying Paul said this? He didn't. Is this womething you are saying, Prakash?

I am not saying that Paul said it or made rules for muslim society. I was just questioning his interpretation, may there are some more clauses which Paul missed. I dont have much knowledge of islamic laws(as i am not a muslim). I was surprised to read that people following such laws. If any country follows such laws, will they be able to punish criminals .

I offer a free copy of my next book to anyone who can actually suggest what this topic is about.

Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.- Robert Bresson

HS Thomas
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posted Dec 25, 2003 20:06:00

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Why conservatives are crazy ?

John Dunn
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posted Dec 26, 2003 00:47:00

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JD: DOES ANYONE ON THIS FORUM, BUY INTO THIS CANDY-COATED BIGOTRY? M. Is: I do not think so. Also, I do not think it's a good idea to put "bigot" label on our fellow drivellers. Already certain lines of thinking are excluded from common discourse by "Political Correctness", ... I disagree, why can't we put a label of bigot on this? Where there's smoke there's fire. I wasn't using the term lightly... big�ot Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot Date: 1661: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices - big�ot�ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective- big�ot�ed�ly adverb

Recall that essay that Paul posted, on the topic of reverse racism, written by a leader of a white supremist site, and recognized and tracked down by many anti-hatred groups for its content, was debunked by me, over the summer. (The articles have since been deleted by the javaranch sheriffs). Paul's claim was that he wanted to speak of the issues, yet he had no comment regarding many of the counter-arguments I raised. Why not? (and recall that I had found a Supreme Court Justice and a U.S. Federal Judge, both of African American descent, on opposing sides of the argument.) My gut feeling here is that he is acting like a person noted by the above definition for 'bigot'. In the following months I notice the other topics Paul defends and I wonder what agenda he is pushing or why he does it?

So I claim that Paul is doing this: in�tel�lec�tu�al�i�za�tion PRONUNCIATION: ntl-kch--l-zshn NOUN: Psychology 1. The act or process of intellectualizing. 2. An unconscious means of protecting oneself from the emotional stress and anxiety associated with confronting painful personal fears or problems by excessive reasoning. I WANT TO KNOW WHY HE THINKS THE WAY HE DOES??? So I asked him directly. That is discussion. Let him fend for himself.

... why do we need this morale censorship here? I don't want any censorship here, in this case. That is a really extreme accusation. Where did you get that idea from?? I want Paul to defend all his ideas as a collective package, which I think they are. I should be entitled to question folks in the same manner you questioned the pro-war folks last winter.

Who actually deleted the Storm Front article that Paul posted? Why didn't you complain about censorship back then? (Note, I actually thought it was a good idea though, as it would probably make the whole site look stupid if Amnesty International and other respected anti-hate groups were asking javaranch to tone it down Also, how would some of us explain to our bosses, spouses, kids that we get java info from a site tracked down by anti-Hate sites???) I had asked Paul to discuss the same topics using anything other than what he choose. I also gave him some serious leads to get him started. He wouldn't or couldn't do it. (i.e. you can seriouly discuss black-on-black crime without using the KKK for information.) Now go back up and re-read the definition above for 'bigot'. Mapraputa, why did you insist that he step up to the plate, back then???

Paul's claim is that he is non-white so how can he be racist? Well, my gut feeling is that Paul knows first hand that it is very possible to be dark skinned and still use the N-word with malice (and mean it) towards African Americans. It happens all the time with dark skinned folks from Puerto Rico, Cuba, etc. It happens within the African American community between dark and light skinned blacks. Being dark skinned doesn't exonerate anyone from being hate-filled towards blacks in this country. On another note, when Mahatma Ghandi was asked if he was going to help the African Americans, after his success in South Africa, he said, 'NO'. It's their fight to fight." Now Paul claims to be one of them (African American) and wants to tell us all how racist 'his people' all are against whites. :roll: Wow man, thanks.

M. Is: Where else can we sincerely discuss our politically incorrect ideas? I am discussing it. I want Paul to zero in on his THEMES because I don't think they'll hold any weight. I also want to know what makes him tick? I want to get beyond the superficial level and know why he thinks what he thinks and why he wants us to see things his way. Any problems there? Damn man, the pro-war folks had to defend their ideas to a minute detail, so why does Paul get off the hook so easy? I guess what I don't get is why if Joe Pluta says the slightest thing in favor of America, he needs to get a lawyer and so few people throw the same level of defense at some of Paul's ideas? Why is that?M. Ernest: I offer a free copy of my next book to anyone who can actually suggest what this topic is about. Hmmmm... This is quite condescending actually... (email me the book info... )

John Dunn
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posted Dec 26, 2003 00:55:00

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DH: John, I suggest ignoring Paul's ignorant rants. What did Martin Luther King say? Something to the effect: "In the end, it's not the voices of our enemies that we'll remember, it's the silence of our friends..."

Mapraputa Is
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posted Dec 26, 2003 01:05:00

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JD: I should be entitled to question folks in the same manner you questioned the pro-war folks last winter. Ok then. Who actually deleted the Storm Front article that Paul posted? Why didn't you complain about censorship back then? 'Cos I probably missed it! !Damn man, the pro-war folks had to defend their ideas to a minute detail, so why does Paul get off the hook so easy? Fair enough.I guess what I don't get is why if Joe Pluta says the slightest thing in favor of America, he needs to get a lawyer What??? How? He doesn't. We love him without any lawyer.

John Dunn
slicker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1108

posted Dec 26, 2003 01:42:00

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PMcK: I have now realized the perhaps I have been a bit racist at times. I have perhaps given out collective punishment and incorrectly so. So I apologize to all those offended and wish that I had perhaps not made those statements in the way I had made them. However the underlying sentiment has not changed it has simply found a more acceptable and truly correct manner of stating itself.. that is - I do not hate anyone because of their religion / skin color / sexual orientation etc. but I would dislike someone who is a Religious fundamentalist, Hard core left winger, Left wing extremist, racists, xenophobes, la-la liberals etc. Sorry, I missed this apology on my first pass through this thread tonight... Not sure how to react to this, though. My first reaction is, "how nice", it seems like you are saying you're sorry, BUT you will just promise to be more clever in the future. ??? Kind of like:Sorry ladies, I promise not to be a misogynist, but I will now only hate prostitutes, lesbians, radical feminists and pro-Abortion extremists and drunk bitches in lawdy bars. Hmmm... said another way, I believe you lack sincerity. I also don't believe you REALLY believe some of the arguments you've raised in the past. My gut feeling, (and I'm speculating), is that you want to tangle some of us in our own arguments, or criss-cross our principles for no other reason than to have us be confused. (I can't help but wonder, 'Why'?) It is kind of devious and insidious. Many people here are open to having their arguments poked at, but excuse me for my opinion, but you seem to try to do it in a way that hurts. Do you realize that you may come across like this? Do you even care? Now if I'm wrong, do what you can to convince us otherwise. Your credibility IMHO is seriously deficient. Paul it's not enough to argue one's point. In the world of public opinion (javaranch, in this case), you also need to package it so it actually get's heard, otherwise it's nothing. One can get away with a lot if one is genuine and honestly inquisitive. You are certainly capable of being more tactful and creative in attempting to say what you want. In fact, your topics might even be discussed. But if you can't, maybe that's a good sign.