To Ianus: Civilisational entropy on the rise

Ianus you are in inverted commas. I am in bold. Just in case the post gets scrambled.

"And as the caliph personified Islam, so Mustafa had no choice but to order his fanatically Moslem Anatolian soldiers to fight their previous "shadow of Allah on earth"

This raises the question about the fanaticism of the Turks. Their fanaticism seems to have detached itself from the 'shadow of Allah on earth' who personified Islam (accepted for hundreds of years by Muslims) and transferred itself to a military commander? It seems that if some local events could achieve such a drastic transfer of loyalty from the person who personified Islam what prevents that happening in other parts of the Islamic world.

"They did it only because they believed that Allah had sent a new "ghazi" a better caliph to them."

Maybe you have something to substantiate that statement, but I would think what happened in Turkey is a demonstration of the universal fact that humans, if they can be shown something/someone better than what they have, will change loyalty - an evolutionary instinct hard-wired into us.

"The outward weakening of Islam served the strengthening of Muastafa Pasha's personal power and did no real harm to the cause of Iaslam as now it was the only religion of Turkey "

Surely even though islam probably strengthened in Turkey its power was weakened in the world. Witness the pining for the caliphate among Islamists.

"And his pan-Turkism? What was it if not a jihad without using the name? "

Would any self-respecting Muslim want to jettison jihad for pan-Turkism? As you have yourself pointed out the Arabs hated the Turks. I can't imagine Turkey leading a new Turikish caliphate.

What a typically Western distinction! You imply people are more important than ideas. It applies no doubt to our humanistic culture. But transferring it so simply onto Islam it's highly risky. In the East an individual is nothing. The collective is all and the religion(deen) is sacred and infallible and most tyrannical.

For me people are. That ideas are more important than people is essentially an Islamic idea. Islamists are always calling on Muslims to defend the idea of Islam with death and destruction because that is what many verses in the Koran tell them to do. But ideas are generated by people (not by Allah). Ideas are generated, incubated, emerge from and are nurtured by people. Old ideas can be replaced/abrogated by new ideas. It happens all the time. Islamic ideas do have an iron grip on Muslims. Many believe it is made of stainless steel but I believe it is mild steel and is beginning to rust especially with the ideas corrosive to Islam being spread by the internet and modern communications. Muslims are more important than Islam.

I wrote: They can be persuaded to interpret their religion differently.

Your reply: "Differently ? How do you mean that ? They will invent un-Islamic Islam like Islamo-democracy and Islamo-humanism or what ?"

One of the curious ideas I have noted on one blog is that some Muslims claim many of the Koran's directives were meant only for prophetic times i.e. for those directly addressed by the prophets and those not directly addressed are generally not subject to them. I do not know when this idea started. But I think it is a brilliant idea, a good beginning. If over time Muslims can accept this idea they would be free of the rock of oppressive Islamic theology pinning them down. There will have to be many a Muslim Sisyphus before the rock is worn to a pebble.

"Being Turkish without being Islamic is rather a strange combination to my mind..."

A nineteenth century European or American without being Christian would also have been a strange combination. From this post of yours not much of the Ataturk's Islamic credentials is visible. I would think if there were more Ataturks rather than Khomeinis, Turaibis, Saddams and Gaddafys in the Islamic world we would all be better off. It would put an end the dar al harb and dar al Islam schizophrenia of the Muslims.

"....It is constructed and works according to a totally different civilizational blueprint , if I may put it so."

There is not much of civilisational content in Islam as a religion. There were and are civilised Muslims in spite of Islam. The civilisational content can only increase over time. Civilisational content of the world seems to increase over time, somewhat like entropy. The order of ideologies, religions and cultures give way to the disorder of democracy (individualism over collectivism).

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Comment on this item

Name

Email Address (optional)

Title of Comments

Comments:

Email me if someone replies to my comment

Mark my comment as a response to To Ianus: Civilisational entropy on the rise by Plato

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".