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I was born Gay, and nothing in the straight world has changed that for the last 62 years!

When the Gay Baths were closed in San Francisco were closed; the straight baths on Lombard and Oak street were left open, and I was welcomed there every visit. Also, the Waterworks in Palo Alto, the Water Garden in San Jose, the Steamworks in Oakland all appreciated a rather large increase in business. What does the closing of the baths have to do with the spread of HIV? The Patio and backrooms of the bars were never closed either. Listen, I don't even know why it is important for me to respond to that post, but for the clarity of history.

Speaking of History.....The Gay Baths were closed down due to the backlash of HIV/AIDS only comming form GAYS.........our history and societies tend to close, shut-down, and demonize what they don't understand, and what scares the holy SHIT outta them, they always FEAR what they don't know, history is history, and sometimes it will repeat itself

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Bimezekwhile you are at it maybe an apology to Hotpuppy for this little gem.

No apology needed. I do what I do because I enjoy it, am required to, or find it in my best interests. When I choose to help someone I do so in the hope that if the tables were turned, someone would be decent enough to help me. While this philosophy isn't foolproof, it is an important value to me. As a society, it's important to help others and respect others. Many religions encourage these behaviors which create socially beneficial results.

Sometimes, it just feels good to do the right thing. Like the time I moved a turtle out of the road. Rest assured I would have run the turtle over if I had no choice. I would not have allowed myself or my property to be compromised for the sake of an insignificant animal. And yes, a snapping turtle in Kemah, Texas is insignificant. Just as the occassional lizard or bird I rescue from my cat is insignificant. I still rescue them because it makes me feel good.

The ability to empathize is thought to be one of the qualities unique to Humans. I think empathy is the root of why we might do something for another person when there is no clear motive or reward.

Chances are that I will never, ever see that guy again. He probably will not listen to me, even if it weren't already too late. I suspect that it is too late for him. It's not very hard to become poz at a bathhouse if you a) do drugs, b) lie a little, c) try.

That said, the bathhouse is not the demon. It's the person who chooses to have unsafe sex and desires to catch a disease. That is the problem.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people using bullets fired from guns. A gun is simply a tool.

When it comes to safe sex, the baths do a wonderful job. I don't know how you can be any clearer. There are posters that encourage safe sex, free condoms, and lube is available for sale at the desk. They put condoms in each "room." I actually think the baths are probably safer than online hookups, parks, bookstores, backrooms, or sex parties. I think we would probably have fewer HIV cases if more places were up front with messaging, testing, and condoms.

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Don't obsess over the wrong things. Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion. It's about getting out there and enjoying it. I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

That said, the bathhouse is not the demon. It's the person who chooses to have unsafe sex and desires to catch a disease. That is the problem.

When it comes to safe sex, the baths do a wonderful job. I don't know how you can be any clearer. There are posters that encourage safe sex, free condoms, and lube is available for sale at the desk. They put condoms in each "room." I actually think the baths are probably safer than online hookups, parks, bookstores, backrooms, or sex parties. I think we would probably have fewer HIV cases if more places were up front with messaging, testing, and condoms.

It is true that "out of the mouths of babes" come astonishing truths. Puppy, you will do fine in the future, you are grounded far beyond your years.

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The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,and 362 to heterosexuals.This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals, It's just that they need more supervision.Lynn Lavne

I am responding to your original post and really haven't read through all of the other posts. Please know that this is not just a gay thing that it happens in the straight world as well.

When I was dating early in my disease process I had straight men want to have sex without protection because they didn't care if they got it and some even wanted to get infected for various reasons. I would always try to educate and inform them that they just thought they wanted to be HIV+. Many would say "If I get infected, I'll just take the meds'." I hear that statement even till this day when I go out to do HIV/AIDS 101 trainings.

The one that hurt the most was not long ago when I had a 16-yr-old ask me to donate some blood to him so he could inject it and become HIV+. He said he had talked to alot of people that were HIV+ and they all seem to be happy and at peace with themselves and he wanted that as well. I told him there were other ways to feel good about one self and it sounded like he needed some help from a therapist and gave him the 800 mental health number.

The way I feel about Bug Chasers is that they need to be educated about the woes of being HIV+ and encouraged to get help emotionally. It is a time to educate and above all else not be one to help them spread this disease by granting them their wish.

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When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced; live your life in such a manner that when you die, the world will cry and you will rejoice!

I've had a couple of supposed bug chasers hit me up on Manhunt before. One of them is already positive, I believe, and is just looking for BB sex. For some reason, he thinks that 'breeding' him will appeal to some of us who are a bit more honest about our status. The other guy is probably also positive but hasn't tested... you know, the old ignorance is bliss thing. I always give them the same answer: I'll give them 'the gift' if they really want it, but I won't share it. They have to take it completely from me because I want no part of being HIV+. If they can do that (make me negative by my infecting them), then we've got a deal. Each time they just quit chatting with me, for some reason!

Mostly, the guys who don't seem to care about having receptive BB sex with a positive guy have generally been positive and uncomfortable disclosing it or have 'seen the ads in magazines' and think that all is well in AIDS land and that a cure is either about to be discovered or has already been discovered. Either way, I do what I can to help reduce the stigma of those who are afraid to disclose and educate those who are ignorant about HIV.

As for real bug chasers, there are cutters (people who cut themselves), people who burn their body with cigarettes, those who chop off body parts, some desire to be killed and eaten, etc. Why is it such a stretch to believe that there would be people who want to be infected with HIV?

when u wrote this part......."I had the feeling the whole time like I was talking to someone who was going to jump off a bridge. No matter what I said he kept saying, "Yea but I want to jump." "

i think you hit the nail on the head, first there is a very large group of gays and even larger group of young gays who are suicidal (alcohol, cigs, poppers, bug chasing) because they had one identity == st8t and going to marry and have kids and then one day wake up to a new identity and they cannot accept it so it is really a mental problem of coming out of closet and being honest etc

but also there is a pull toward death for every human, and if you think it is not true i can explain in detail, death is a reconnection with something bigger and universal and it has an attraction , esp. for those who have altered minds from drugs

also ask yourself why you care so much about helping this person, why no just walk away like the majority does in 3rd world india with the poor etc, perhaps you feel you must help and it is part of your denial of your own status, eg if i help him then i help myself somehow

in any case, death is always very very close from moment of birth

also in the sexually excited state of the mind, turned on so to speak, many things get warped and esp. when on meth,

just think how different a person looks after the sex the next morning than before

there are many complex issues here

i mean in 1984 the gays in SF were screaming and demanding the baths not be shut so that thier lifestyle would not be stopped even though thousands got infected there and public health wanted to shut them

why was there a blood donation center in the castro from 1975 to 1989 taking tainted blood from gays who were supporting themselves and their drug habits and dancing all night and sleeping with thousands and going to give blood to get money to live

greed, lack of love, bad decisions --- they rise endlessly in human mind according to buddah

compassion for the weakness of humans

is called for

but this is a big big topic

with

why does christian societies "help" gays who have hiv but not too much not enough so that they can have safe loved filled lives but just enough to keep them on edge of homelessness

big questions of human kind

why are we treating and not capturing and forcing into rehab prisions every hiv poz person who tests poz for meth??? to save themselves and society

why are there no dog catchers in cities anymore

why is sexual aggrevated assault a big crime in most states

why is someone who willfully smokes every day and kills themselves and those around them allowed but

I consider that post to represent a particularly expansive and highly individualised quasi-buddhist philosophical take on such matters. but hardly psychotic.

If we more or less agree with this post:"As for real bug chasers, there are cutters (people who cut themselves), people who burn their body with cigarettes, those who chop off body parts, some desire to be killed and eaten, etc. Why is it such a stretch to believe that there would be people who want to be infected with HIV?"

(and I agree)

and so that human nature is vast and occasionally inexplicably dark,

then why not search in expansive explanations for some semblance of pattern, if not meaning.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

I consider that post to represent a particularly expansive and highly individualised quasi-buddhist philosophical take on such matters. but hardly psychotic.

I'm not quite sure how you can support comments like this:

Quote

why was there a blood donation center in the castro from 1975 to 1989 taking tainted blood from gays who were supporting themselves and their drug habits and dancing all night and sleeping with thousands and going to give blood to get money to live

I'll bet he can't give me any credible evidence that was the case.

I'd quite like him to explain in more detail what he means by this:

Quote

why are we treating and not capturing and forcing into rehab prisions every hiv poz person who tests poz for meth??? to save themselves and society

I'd also quite like it if he could explain the dog catcher comment because I honestly don't know what he is talking about.

I really don't know what has happened to this place. It's been on a downward slope for a while now.

I don't pay much attention to weird stuff in people's posts like the blood bank claim, only was defending the general sentiment in that post, like you said.

Where was the "non-weird" part of this post?

Defend his general sentiment?? What was his general sentiment? Hmmm.. maybe when he intimates that hotpuppy wanted to help because of the denial of his own status? Maybe it was stating how traumatic it can be to suddenly wake up gay? Maybe it was asking why cities don't have dog catchers any more?

His post was a complete rambling bit of hogwash -- with a few rather insulting thoughts thrown in. It did not contribute a single bit to the original question. If Bim really did have a valid point, I would expect that he would have tried to "re-explain" since his original post has caused such consternation.

The way I feel about Bug Chasers is that they need to be educated about the woes of being HIV+ and encouraged to get help emotionally. It is a time to educate and above all else not be one to help them spread this disease by granting them their wish.

I think sums it up nicely. It's sad that we have come so far, but lost so much in terms of educational outreach and the potency of our messaging.

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Don't obsess over the wrong things. Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion. It's about getting out there and enjoying it. I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Meth addicts seem to be the gay community's latest Boo Radley's. (Puppy, you seem to border on demonising meth addicts, as well.)

I don't demonize the person as much as the problem. I have plenty of friends who are recovering or using. I'm that guy who doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't do drugs and can sit there and watch someone do all 3. I've also watched people try to get clean and fail, repeatedly.

We all have choices in life. The consequences of our choices are sometimes good, and sometimes bad. I don't see alot of good coming out of Meth use. I know a fair number of guys who got high, did stupid, and got poz.

Did meth give them HIV? Not directly. But it led to a total lack of sense that did make them poz. It's one thing to balance risk, it's another thing to defy it entirely.

Anyhow, you can't help someone get sober. They have to have a drug problem before they want help. Most don't have a drug problem. They have a job problem, a place to live problem, a boy friend problem, an hiv problem.... etc.

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Don't obsess over the wrong things. Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion. It's about getting out there and enjoying it. I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

maybe when he intimates that hotpuppy wanted to help because of the denial of his own status?

Nonsense. It's absolute stupidity to think that I have a problem with my own status.

1) I have a blog that states "musings of a poz man". If that isn't out than hell I don't know what is.2) I told him "well, if you do not know your status then we should play safe because I am poz." That doesn't sound like I have an issue with my status.

Sure, some of his points were absurd. But I think what happened is he made an initial point and got carried away on a slippery slope argument. I respect him for taking the time to contribute his opinion, even if I don't agree with all of it.

His argument was basically that I should look at why I am helping others. Yet, at the same time he cites "compassion for the weakness of others."

Again, the point is that he took the time to write his opinion. I respect that. I understood his points and found the supporting text to be questionable in content, but valid. Including the series of cascading why's. It transitions to using the rant as a supporting argument as in Why not A why not B why not C etc. The main point he responded to was the juxtaposition of someone being suicidal in trying to get HIV and insisting on catching it even when being told "no, don't do that."

The response to most of this is that:A) We must sometimes do what is unpleasant, but right. Including reaching out to people.B) We must consider others in our actions. At a most basic level, not at a transactional level.C) Somethings just are... like the fact that stray dogs roam in some places and there aren't enough dog catchers to catch them all. D) We must accept what we cannot change and work on the things that we can.E) The first step in solving problems is to identify what you lack the power to change and put it in the "so what" pile. Exercising the power of your "NO" can go a long way in helping you gain control over your situation.

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Don't obsess over the wrong things. Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion. It's about getting out there and enjoying it. I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

I don't think Bocker was accusing you of being in denial - he was commenting on what Bim said. Bim's the one who seems to think you're in denial. I don't see much point in justifying yourself to Bim - he reads into stuff what he wants to read into it, no matter what anyone else thinks or says.

And just for the record, my comments in this thread concerning Bim's notorious post are coming from Ann, the forum member, not Ann the moderator. Just sayin...

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Of course the simple answer to the question is to say no thank you and move along. I doubt preaching about the evils of HIV in a bar or in online chat rooms has much effect. I guess if you can just save one...

I do find it odd how morally outraged many become after the fact of their own infection. It's hard to preach safe sex to someone when they're looking at you thinking, "hey wait a minute, you took it up the pooper unprotected when you knew better". I know it's not the same as seeking out infection, but it is a kind of six degrees of seperation.

I do find it odd how morally outraged many become after the fact of their own infection. It's hard to preach safe sex to someone when they're looking at you thinking, "hey wait a minute, you took it up the pooper unprotected when you knew better". I know it's not the same as seeking out infection, but it is a kind of six degrees of seperation.

I think seeking out an infection is very different than someone who just has sex without a condom. It is like someone who rides in a car without a seatbelt and someone who purposely doesn't put a seatbelt on and intentionally runs their car into another car. People who are involved in "bug chasing" and "gift giving" are actively undermining what many people on this site and across the world are trying to accomplish- stopping the spread of HIV. I'm not sympathetic to people who want to intentionally spread this disease. I also don't think because I made a mistake and didn't use a condom with my partner I surrender the right to say that purposely infecting yourself with HIV and intentionally infecting others is sick and wrong. People who are "bug chasers" and "gift givers" not only screw up their own lives but play into the general public's worst fears about HIV and make life harder for the rest of us. If anything I think people with HIV are in the best position to say "I am living with the consequences of HIV and you need to stop what you are doing."

I think seeking out an infection is very different than someone who just has sex without a condom. It is like someone who rides in a car without a seatbelt and someone who purposely doesn't put a seatbelt on and intentionally runs their car into another car. People who are involved in "bug chasing" and "gift giving" are actively undermining what many people on this site and across the world are trying to accomplish- stopping the spread of HIV. I'm not sympathetic to people who want to intentionally spread this disease. I also don't think because I made a mistake and didn't use a condom with my partner I surrender the right to say that purposely infecting yourself with HIV and intentionally infecting others is sick and wrong. People who are "bug chasers" and "gift givers" not only screw up their own lives but play into the general public's worst fears about HIV and make life harder for the rest of us. If anything I think people with HIV are in the best position to say "I am living with the consequences of HIV and you need to stop what you are doing."

Maybe you missed the part where I said, "I know it's not the same as seeking out infection", but I stand by what I said. In my humble opinion we tend to moralize about how others become infected while justifying our own infection as just a mistake.

In my over twenty years of teaching HIV prevention I've learned it's better to try and distance myself from judging how others became infected. Whether by design or delusion the majority of us arrived here the same way. Ignoring the reality of infection for whatever reason.

Whether by design or delusion the majority of us arrived here the same way.

I struggle with this every time I do my outreach sessions, especially when talking to other gay men. Most are polite enough not to say it to my face but I can tell many were saying/thinking, "hey uncle, you were on a suicide mission to catch AIDS yourself and now you can fuck without a rubber while the rest of us have to get covered every single time."

I try never to judge how people get it even before my own diagnosis, and I try to tell people not to do so either because it never helps anyone. I try to tell others that people make mistakes, plain and simple, and some mistakes are irreversible and l have to live with its dire consequences every single day for the rest of my life.

But, alas, you can tell (from what they're discussing, etc) that many will immediately jump to even more moral judgments like "you guys are burdening the health care system", "you guys are giving the gay community a bad name", "you guys are spreading the disease so it's less safe for us to play around now", etc. In short, once you're the fall guy, you're on the "other side", not "their side".

IMHO the whole bug chasing thing is as much a reality as a myth. What I mean is - most people I have encountered are usually very careful/sensible when it comes to safer sex. While in my crazy barebacking days I had no problem finding willing (mostly silent, i.e. we just didn't talk about it) partners, I had encountered 10, 20 times more people telling me I was just nut to fuck with protection. I haven't met during those months a single person that could be said as a bug chaser/gift giver, which in my definition is someone explicitly verbalizing, fetishizing and eroticizing the "cult" of HIV infection.

Now all I can do is to make sure that my virus stays with me, and it seems to be good enough for my own peace of mind.

Hello, what an interesting thread. I first heard about Bug Chasers many years before I was infected. I was at a bar with someone I was dating at the time and we were playing darts. We ended up chatting with the few men that were there and had a nice conversation. During the course of the evening two of the men that we were talking with told us that they had been together for a few years, were having some financial troubles and couldn't afford health insurance. They had decided as a couple to seek out men that were HIV + so they could get infected and get help with health insurance. I was blown away. I couldn't believe that anyone would actually seek out this sort of thing. I understood the need for health insurance, but to actually pursue infecting yourself to get help with receiving health insurance seemed like an amazingly crazy thing to do. Why not just cut off both of your legs and try for disability why you are at it?

I'm not really sure of the other reasons of why people out there are trying to get infected. Maybe they want to fit in? Sounds crazy, but possible. I also have a feeling that some of these guys online are full of crap. They are just bored and want to chat with someone and know that they can have someone to chat with or swap emails with, even if it's all a lie. I think it's amazing that Hotpuppy wants to reach out to help guys that are set on getting infected, I just hope that these guys aren't just bored lonely people making up a reason to have someone reach out to them. It's also possible that these guys are already infected and just want to get laid. People will try stranger tricks than these to do so. Who really knows? I hate to say that it's a waste of time to do an outreach program for these people, but if they are full of it, then I would say yes, it is a waste of time, unless you just want to be there for lonely people that like to lie to get people to pay attention to them. Either way it sounds like a lot of drama to me.

Other than the bar story from years ago, I personally have never met someone that has asked me to infect them for what ever reason. I wouldn't say it's a myth that they exist, but I would say that they are few and far between. What might be a better outreach is simply to help the people on this site or others like it that need encouragement. I know I sure could use it from lonely-time to lonely-time.

No matter what, I hope that Hotpuppy is able to at least talk some sense into one guy that is really pursuing getting infected. Those people are out there and maybe he will be someone to stop someone else from being stupid about it all. I wouldn't wish this condition on anyone, not even my worst enemy.

All my best to all.

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It is with passion, courage of conviction, and strong sense of self that we take our next steps into the world. Remembering that first impressions are not always correct. You must always have faith in people, and most importantly, you must always have faith in yourself. ~E. Woods

I think it's amazing that Hotpuppy wants to reach out to help guys that are set on getting infected, I just hope that these guys aren't just bored lonely people making up a reason to have someone reach out to them. It's also possible that these guys are already infected and just want to get laid.

Remember, this was in person. I usually ignore the ones online. I'm pretty blunt about it. I just tell them, sorry I don't do neg guys.... low drama diet ya know. For the most part I don't. I can find plenty of hot poz guys to play with and I don't have to worry about the cum and freak-out syndrome. Now, I do sometimes play with neg guys who are willing to play safe and be more than just a piece of ass. I still would prefer to make HIV a non-issue by dating someone else who understands it, has shared problems, shared goals, and who I can connect with.

I admire those that can date sero-opposites. I didn't do it before I was poz for much the same reason I don't want to do it now.

I was just surprised to have someone answer, "What are you trying to catch HIV?" with "yes, I am. Can I have yours?" Um, {Poof} I'm outta here, you crazy psycho fool.

I think we have a moral responsibility to encourage others to do the right thing.

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Don't obsess over the wrong things. Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion. It's about getting out there and enjoying it. I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

Because I was curious how other poz guys and gals handle it. I'm not the only one that this has happened to. I prefer not to reinvent the wheel and often others have better ideas on how to deal with problems.

Having someone ask you to infect them with HIV is much like having someone ask you to shoot them. While it isn't guaranteed to lead to their death, it has a high probability of hastening it. Perhaps my perspective is different. Maybe I still feel like HIV is a burden. Hell yea it is. I don't know many of us that celebrate it. I do equate wanting to catch HIV to suicide.

When I was in the military I was an expert with the hand grenade, grenade launcher, and a sharpshooter with a rifle. All of which are implements of death. Fortunately, I have never been in a situation where I had to take a human life. However, when you train to shoot, at some point you have to realize that the plastic targets that look like people could easily be people. My point being that the only reason you point a weapon at another person is if you intend to kill them and are prepared to do so. I hope that I never have to do that.

Being asked to give someone HIV has the same feeling as having someone ask me to shoot them. It's disturbing.

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Don't obsess over the wrong things. Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion. It's about getting out there and enjoying it. I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

I think we have a moral responsibility to encourage others to do the right thing.

I've had a moral responsibility to protect my NEG partner of 15 yrs. ( I get a lotta flack for having a NEG partner, even by a lot of you in this forum, but I'm used to it, after 15 yrs.) I look at it this way, I'm the one that's POZ, he's not, so, it's my responsibility, more so, than his, I can't get anything form him, and I certainly don't want to give HIV to anyone for that matter, even if they begged me to.........at the end of the day, it's all of our responsibility to do the right thing, it's tough to talk to a lotta young guys, cause most of them just won't listen, they say things like, Oh your Old school, or your OLD, I also use to get called papa, or daddy, uncle, or whatever, and that was a long time ago, what the hell do you know, is what I get when I try to do HIV out-reach you can't help people who will not help themselves......if you can reach one person and help them, then I guess, it's not all that bad.......

« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 12:00:41 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

What country were they in? In the U.S. you don't get health insurance because you are HIV+.

They were in Tampa Florida, had friends that were not previously insured, they found out they were infected and then had full coverage. The men had approached those same people about getting infected by them and they said no to them and didn't want to hang out with them anymore. They also said that the infected guys had become boring and no longer visited the bars. It is very possible that these men were just playing with us, trying to shock us? Who knows really? I never saw them again beyond that evening.

It's honestly not a big part of this whole thread. It's just one experience that I had, just thought I would share what happened.

Hotpuppy, I just saw that you posted again, I'm not sure how to copy two posts in mine, but I understand how you feel about dating. I have changed my ways quite a bit, call me crazy, anyone here can judge me all they want, but I just don't want to date anyone that isn't positive now. I don't want to infect them. I would rather be single, put my energy in loving my family and friends and not have that part of my life fulfilled than to infect someone I care about. I am good friends with a nice young couple. I was around when they started dating. During the courtship time one of them found out he was positive. It put a hard wedge in the beginnings of their relationship. Later things smoothed out. Then almost a year later the second guy, negative, found out he was positive. They said they had been safe, but also that one time a condom did break. So now they are both positive, one on meds, one not, both happy and they were married two years ago. So there are happy endings after all. I surely understand your concern for people that are seeking this out. I surely do not understand what their motivation is to pursue it. I wish you all the best of encouragement that I can through this little message for anyone in the future that you will talk out of doing such an amazingly heinous thing.

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It is with passion, courage of conviction, and strong sense of self that we take our next steps into the world. Remembering that first impressions are not always correct. You must always have faith in people, and most importantly, you must always have faith in yourself. ~E. Woods

The response to that is simple. You got old by doing the right things from time to time. Perhaps they would like to get old too?

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Don't obsess over the wrong things. Life isn't about your numbers, it isn't about this forum, it isn't about someone's opinion. It's about getting out there and enjoying it. I am a person with HIV - not the other way around.

The response to that is simple. You got old by doing the right things from time to time. Perhaps they would like to get old too?

Why Thank You hotpuppy, most young people don't wanna deal with the big picture, yes if they survive to get old, it's easy to become Invisible when your in your 50's cause nobody looks at you anyway......LOL

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974