megahobbitwrote:
Secondly dude have you been to an anime convention im gonna say most of those people are shut-ins (by which I mean people who generally dont get alot of social interaction and not agoraphobics)

I wouldn't draw conclusions about Japanese otaku based on Western anime viewers. They're more different than they're alike.

True. Have you seen the documentary Otaku? That may shed some insight into the Japanese nerd scene.

I agree with the sentiment, but what people don't take into account is the 2D-3D principle I mentioned earlier. Trying to defend anime as if it were live action and produced in America is missing the point, and leaves a lot unnecessary openings for critics to attack (incidentally, many if not most of these critics don't even watch anime (even if they claim they do), and are pushing a hidden and dishonest agenda).

Back to the topic, there are specific elements of modern anime which are meant to appeal to otaku sexual preferences, but displays of sexuality in and of themselves aren't exclusive to media meant for otaku, the latter being a misinformed critique of anime by some in the fandom I have noticed.

Back to the topic, there are specific elements of modern anime which are meant to appeal to otaku sexual preferences, but displays of sexuality in and of themselves aren't exclusive to media meant for otaku, the latter being a misinformed critique of anime by some in the fandom I have noticed.

Of course not. But were specifically discussing the microcosm of anime here.

Back to the topic, there are specific elements of modern anime which are meant to appeal to otaku sexual preferences, but displays of sexuality in and of themselves aren't exclusive to media meant for otaku, the latter being a misinformed critique of anime by some in the fandom I have noticed.

Of course not. But were specifically discussing the microcosm of anime here.

I know. What I am saying is that when it comes to anime, displays of sexuality in and of themselves are viewed as deviant, and those who enjoy them to be deviants, but such critiques are rarely given to other media. That the general displays of sexuality in anime are what people discuss when saying anime is "misogynistic," that the critique itself isn't one that addresses the specifics of sexuality in anime as the discussion is rarely, "Here is how this specific series or character or scene can be understood as misogynistic," but rather the argument is, "Those half-naked cartoon chicks are all misogynistic."

maxgalewrote:
That the general displays of sexuality in anime are what people discuss when saying anime is "misogynistic," that the critique itself isn't one that addresses the specifics of sexuality in anime as the discussion is rarely, "Here is how this specific series or character or scene can be understood as misogynistic," but rather the argument is, "Those half-naked cartoon chicks are all misogynistic."

I think it's a useful way for people to hate on anime fans while looking like the good guys. It's something that's always happened, but now they can ride a high horse instead of looking like a jerk.

I know. What I am saying is that when it comes to anime, displays of sexuality in and of themselves are viewed as deviant, and those who enjoy them to be deviants, but such critiques are rarely given to other media. That the general displays of sexuality in anime are what people discuss when saying anime is "misogynistic," that the critique itself isn't one that addresses the specifics of sexuality in anime as the discussion is rarely, "Here is how this specific series or character or scene can be understood as misogynistic," but rather the argument is, "Those half-naked cartoon chicks are all misogynistic."

"Here is how this specific series or character or scene can be understood as misogynistic," but rather the argument is, "Those half-naked cartoon chicks are all misogynistic."

I think both arguments (well the argument form of the second statement which would be "there is a large amount of women in anime sexualized") are valid. Sort of like macroeconomics/microeconomics they deal essentially with the same thing on different scales. The main complaint of people is just the sheer volume of sexualized characters and sexist character archetypes (and you gotta admit anime reuses alot of fucking character archetypes). Personally I think in a vacuum a sexualized female anime character is not a problem. The problem is thats nearly the only role that women fill in anime.

TW for rape

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For example I view "I think that as a whole women in anime are portrayed as largely fanservice and that is a problem" and "the rape scene in Valverave is specifically sexist and fucked up" as both equally valid critiques of something

Bit of a tangent this is alot of what people dont really get about Sarkeesians work, its about looking at tropes and characters from a broad perspective rather than going in depth to each character. The point is the problem is the amount of women being portrayed this way in games.

megahobbitwrote:
The main complaint of people is just the sheer volume of sexualized characters and sexist character archetypes (and you gotta admit anime reuses alot of fucking character archetypes). Personally I think in a vacuum a sexualized female anime character is not a problem. The problem is thats nearly the only role that women fill in anime.

The only way you could reach this conclusion is if you watch anime very casually and fill in the blanks by listening to what people say about anime, who in turn have watched anime very casually and filled in the blanks by listening to what other people say about anime, and so on. This has become a widespread problem, and is also how we are constantly hearing that "moe" anime has completely supplanted all other anime even if in reality there's only 1-3 per season. People want to talk about and criticize anime a lot, they just don't want to watch it.

Anime doesn't sexualize women or men, it sexualizes anime characters, and it almost always does so in humorous and absurd ways. The characters of Monogatari have nothing to do with real people, nor do the characters of shows aimed at female viewers and fujoshi. And speaking of which, constantly framing this as an issue of "women" being sexualized conviniently ignores the very substantial and enthusiastic participation of Japanese women in producing and consuming sexual content. They aren't the dainty little prudes and passive victims that American feminists paint them as. And as usual, it's assumed that lesbians (or women who are just into 2D girls) don't exist. Their existence is sometimes inconvinient, and a bit of strategic identity erasure may be required.

So why is there really all this controversy over "sexualization" in video games and anime, but feminists rarely or never tell women to stop doing porn and modeling, tell women to cover themselves up when they go clubbing (or slut marching), and tell women to stop proudly waving around their sex toys? And why is there comparatively little criticism directed at American movies and TV shows? Because video games and anime are perceived to be made only by men and only for men, and the only women involved are virtual. Feminists are left out of the process. They aren't in control, can't gain any advantage and can't influence people. That's what this is all really about.

Bit of a tangent this is alot of what people dont really get about Sarkeesians work, its about looking at tropes and characters from a broad perspective rather than going in depth to each character. The point is the problem is the amount of women being portrayed this way in games.

Sarkeesian is a known fraud whose arguments are nonsense that can't survive without being protected by heavy censorship and media collusion.

megahobbitwrote: So many 90s anime treated there women like shit with them constantly being victimized abused and sexually assault. Real ugly stuff was happening.

dunno if around that was that time..

but well why is it bad title if someone in said title or social treat women as shit?
also I guess its more the darker animes but then agian they do bring some points of what can happend or what do really happend to someone.

one of the things I love about darker content (fiction not reality) and tries to prove alot of things or how things are around there.
from the ghetto to the "jungle" or to the war zones (what to protect and why?)
*psycho pass cleared*

okey that didn't go well^

also lol.. saying "real talk" and those things after seemed like you would go all white knight crazy...

megahobbitwrote:
The main complaint of people is just the sheer volume of sexualized characters and sexist character archetypes (and you gotta admit anime reuses alot of fucking character archetypes). Personally I think in a vacuum a sexualized female anime character is not a problem. The problem is thats nearly the only role that women fill in anime.

The only way you could reach this conclusion is if you watch anime very casually and fill in the blanks by listening to what people say about anime, who in turn have watched anime very casually and filled in the blanks by listening to what other people say about anime, and so on. This has become a widespread problem, and is also how we are constantly hearing that "moe" anime has completely supplanted all other anime even if in reality there's only 1-3 per season. People want to talk about and criticize anime a lot, they just don't want to watch it.

Anime doesn't sexualize women or men, it sexualizes anime characters, and it almost always does so in humorous and absurd ways. The characters of Monogatari have nothing to do with real people, nor do the characters of shows aimed at female viewers and fujoshi. And speaking of which, constantly framing this as an issue of "women" being sexualized conviniently ignores the very substantial and enthusiastic participation of Japanese women in producing and consuming sexual content. They aren't the dainty little prudes and passive victims that American feminists paint them as. And as usual, it's assumed that lesbians (or women who are just into 2D girls) don't exist. Their existence is sometimes inconvinient, and a bit of strategic identity erasure may be required.

I kind of agree with this. Japanese women definitely aren't the delicate little flowers that some Western media paint them as. You should check out pixiv and some of the raunchier art on there sometimes. Especially the yaoi art.

So why is there really all this controversy over "sexualization" in video games and anime, but feminists rarely or never tell women to stop doing porn and modeling, tell women to cover themselves up when they go clubbing (or slut marching), and tell women to stop proudly waving around their sex toys? And why is there comparatively little criticism directed at American movies and TV shows? Because video games and anime are perceived to be made only by men and only for men, and the only women involved are virtual. Feminists are left out of the process. They aren't in control, can't gain any advantage and can't influence people. That's what this is all really about.

Actually, feminists are always complaining about how models are skinny, how the fashion industry/media encourages one norm, etc. Also, there's been plenty of criticism at tv/movies lately because of how little women get paid for directing/writing/basic behind the scenes stuff, along with how little diversity there is.

Bit of a tangent this is alot of what people dont really get about Sarkeesians work, its about looking at tropes and characters from a broad perspective rather than going in depth to each character. The point is the problem is the amount of women being portrayed this way in games.

Sarkeesian is a known fraud whose arguments are nonsense that can't survive without being protected by heavy censorship and media collusion.

You know, I really don't play video games but out of curiousity I checked out Feminist Frequency and I couldn't even get thru it because it just felt like one longass boring lecture. I could care less about Ms Sarkeesian, but all I kept thinking was...'If your'e that offended then don't play the games....'

Sarkeesian is a known fraud whose arguments are nonsense that can't survive without being protected by heavy censorship and media collusion.

"Sarkeesian is a known fraud"

God you people are delusional. You cant just disagree she has to be "a known fraud". I dont even agree with everything she says but you cant have an actual discussion about her arguments and what she says without crap like this.

God you people are delusional. You cant just disagree she has to be "a known fraud". I dont even agree with everything she says but you cant have an actual discussion about her arguments and what she says without crap like this.