I see what you are saying in a tactical sense. But I highly doubt a person that killed someone during an arguement will be finding a defensible positionin the resteraunt to kill more people instead of just leaving........jusr saying it makes no sense. Every time we here of shootings like this the dude is leaving.

That is not saying he is not a threat, but he isn't looking for cover and concealment.

I was actually addressing the legal aspect described by the other poster. Doubts notwithstanding, how do we possibly know what comes next in a scenario like this? It isn't like we as private citizens have a wealth of applicable first-hand experience. Again, I'm not implying I would engage, but I am not assuming that he got what he came for and now the show is over. I don't believe anyone else would assume that, either, even though it seems likely given the description offered in the OP.

October 22nd, 2012, 07:58 PM

minimalbrat

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayTee

I guess I'm going against the grain with most people here. Even if my family was totally secure and the bad guy posed no threat to me personally, I don't know if I could simply remain a "good witness" and stand idly by while he executes innocent people.

If others were in danger after he shot the person I would have to do something if I could. Wouldn't matter if mine were in trouble or not. Sounds like in this situation there was little to be done. It was over very quickly.

October 22nd, 2012, 07:59 PM

JayTee

Quote:

Originally Posted by suntzu

Nobody is standing "idly by as he exucuted innocent people". The OP said he was leaving AFTER he shot someone where there was no time for anyone to react. Different scenario.

Oh yes, you are correct. In that specific scenario there was really no time to do anything but duck & cover.

I should have been more clear, my fault. I was referring to the last question the OP asked: "Do we have a duty to protect other innocents when someone is in the act of a violent crime?" I know that legally we do not. But morally? Everyone has to answer that question for themselves and believe me I will never knock anyone for what they would decide to do in an active shooter situation where innocent people are being mortally wounded. I just hope that if a (unarmed) family member of mine was in a situation like that without me, that someone (especially a CCW holder) would do something other than remain a "good witness". Thats all I meant in my previous post.

October 22nd, 2012, 08:22 PM

Bill MO

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayTee

Oh yes, you are correct. In that specific scenario there was really no time to do anything but duck & cover.

I should have been more clear, my fault. I was referring to the last question the OP asked: "Do we have a duty to protect other innocents when someone is in the act of a violent crime?" I know that legally we do not. But morally? Everyone has to answer that question for themselves and believe me I will never knock anyone for what they would decide to do in an active shooter situation where innocent people are being mortally wounded. I just hope that if a (unarmed) family member of mine was in a situation like that without me, that someone (especially a CCW holder) would do something other than remain a "good witness". Thats all I meant in my previous post.

Do you have a chance at preventing the violent crime or is it over? In the OP I took it, the act was over by the time you knew there was trouble in the air.

You can only use deadly force when the threat is present. His having just killed someone makes him a threat but he looks to be leaving. I am not LE so I really don't have any right to stop him and hold him. Yes I know there is the citizens arrest but I see stopping him causing a situation that would not happen without me becoming involved. Most likely causing me cost in the fight afterwards with the DA. While I believe in stopping the act of violent crime I do like to pick my fights. If there is no threat of and to loss of life that I can and could stop, I don't act.

Actually being there and seeing it happening could cause me to do all things in a different way. As I've stated before (from Roger Phillips) "SITUATIONS DICTATE STRATEGIES, STRATEGIES DICTATE TACTICS, AND TACTICS DICTATE TECHNIQUES"

And then there is always "Guantes" quote in my sig line

October 22nd, 2012, 08:33 PM

BurgerBoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayTee

I guess I'm going against the grain with most people here. Even if my family was totally secure and the bad guy posed no threat to me personally, I don't know if I could simply remain a "good witness" and stand idly by while he executes innocent people.

I wouldn't just stand by either.

October 22nd, 2012, 08:53 PM

Piratesailor

Quote:

Originally Posted by royal barnes

Secure your loved ones and, unless he threatens you and your family, be a good witness.

Exactly!

October 22nd, 2012, 09:23 PM

BadHabit

When you get caught flat-footed like that it can be a losing proposition for you to take the offensive. First thing is to ensure personal security of yourself and family. If the lead keeps flying then it is time to do something. In that scenario, I doubt I would have done anything.

October 22nd, 2012, 09:31 PM

Scramble4a5

Hard for me to say since I wasn't there. I guess if I felt like he was still the aggressor then I would have to shoot. But since I live in Illinois with no CC I can't (legally) be in such a situation.

October 22nd, 2012, 09:43 PM

Armey

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaraCroft10

In this particular situation, it sounds like there's not much you can do. Now, you ARE legally justified to use deadly force in a defense situation if he is infringing upon the lives of others. So if he was "executing innocent people", yeah, I might try to get a good vantage point and take him out. But it's not your DUTY. If it's too risky - you do whatever you need to to protect yourself first and foremost. But in the OP's situation, sounds like he was out the door before you could really register what happened. I would not shoot if the dude was leaving the establishment. Get in a safe area and call 911 ASAP.

Indeed as the perp is in retreat, you would not engage period.

October 22nd, 2012, 10:00 PM

StarPD45

As originally posted, the BG was leaving. The only thing I would do different would be to have my weapon "handy and out of sight" in case he decided to come back to finish the job. You also wouldn't want to be standing there holding a weapon when LE arrives.

October 23rd, 2012, 08:23 AM

CPanther95

First: If I wanted to keep my family safe, I wouldn't be with them at a Mexican restaurant unless we were leaving in separate vehicles.

Second: At the first gunshot, my weapon would be un-holstered and pointed in the general direction of the shooter before seeking cover - then I'd do the best I could to get my family and myself to cover without taking my eyes off the shooter.

That's not out of a desire to engage the shooter, it would be more because I know my fear of being exposed would be less than my fear of missing that crucial split second where the shooter decides to turn and target anyone in my family (or myself).

October 23rd, 2012, 08:56 AM

suntzu

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPanther95

First: If I wanted to keep my family safe, I wouldn't be with them at a Mexican restaurant unless we were leaving in separate vehicles.

Second: At the first gunshot, my weapon would be un-holstered and pointed in the general direction of the shooter before seeking cover - then I'd do the best I could to get my family and myself to cover without taking my eyes off the shooter.

That's not out of a desire to engage the shooter, it would be more because I know my fear of being exposed would be less than my fear of missing that crucial split second where the shooter decides to turn and target anyone in my family (or myself).

Unholstering your weapon and pointing itin the general direction of the BG might not be such a good idea. Folks might mistake you for a shooter.

October 23rd, 2012, 10:03 AM

Mike1956

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyturtle

There was a shooting at a popular Mexican restaurant in September. The shooter ran into the restaurant, got in an argument with a guy at a table, pulled his gun, shot him and ran out. My daughter had friends in the restaurant but I was not at the restaurant. The discussion came up about what a law abiding citizen with a weapon (and permit) would do at that point. No one truly knew the shooters frame of mind at the time. His gun swept across the restaurant as he was turning to leave. Do we have a duty to protect other innocents when someone is in the act of violent crime?

Assume that the shooter was in an area where a safe shot could be taken.

What do you think and why?

Someone running into a restaurant would likely trigger a normal person's SA. If it escalates into an argument in close proximity and doesn't raise that SA, something is seriously amok. If shots are fired, the shooter is active. Why does anyone need to know the active shooter's state of mind? He is there to kill people, and is doing so. He is posing a legitimate and immediate threat. In the fraction of a second OODA is in effect, what is the discernable difference between turning to leave and turning to shoot somebody else? As long as he has a gun in his hand, he remains a legitimate threat.

October 23rd, 2012, 10:26 AM

CPanther95

Quote:

Originally Posted by suntzu

Unholstering your weapon and pointing itin the general direction of the BG might not be such a good idea. Folks might mistake you for a shooter.

If I'm threatened, it wouldn't be a mistake, I would be a shooter.

I'm not a quick-draw artist, or interested in testing my draw ability vs even the average BG. I'm not going to sacrifice my readiness to account for the potential ignorance of those around me.

If that's your threshold, you shouldn't even carry a gun (not "you" personally, a general "you") because there's always the potential that some nearby idiot may misinterpret your having a gun.

October 23rd, 2012, 11:08 AM

suntzu

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPanther95

If I'm threatened, it wouldn't be a mistake, I would be a shooter.

I'm not a quick-draw artist, or interested in testing my draw ability vs even the average BG. I'm not going to sacrifice my readiness to account for the potential ignorance of those around me.

If that's your threshold, you shouldn't even carry a gun (not "you" personally, a general "you") because there's always the potential that some nearby idiot may misinterpret your having a gun.

Excuse me? Someone using their brain and having the confidence and presecend of mind to not point it into a "general direction" should not carry a gun?
Sir, did it occur to you you can un holster your weapon WITHOUT pointing it in a "general direction" that would draw attention to yourself?

You are right about one thing...some folks should re think about carrying a gun until they get more training.