Majora's Mask is more significant than most of us realize

I've been wanting to post this for quite some time, and i've the drive to do so from recent posts of other members, as well as the realization of how important Majora's Mask is. It took me a while to realize just how significant that game is for what it has done, especially when you look at it in retrospect. In comparison to what today's games have done in recent years.

I tried doing the same thing with my Twilight Princess thread... but, as i've mentioned elsewhere, people really didn't seem to understand and get the message. Twilight Princess moved the series forward in both very noticeable ways, and not-so-noticeable ways. In small fragments that could only be noticed by a very in-depth observer.

Majora's Mask, on the other hand, does it quite clearly. Very, very clearly, actually. And it's about time everyone realizes it, and pays that game the respect it deserves.

I didn't like Majora's Mask as much as OoT, at all... Hell, i've never even BEATEN Majora's Mask! It's on my gaming to-do list, though. For sure. But i've realized what the game has done, and it came at me like a hammer to the head. I was quite shocked at the fact that Nintendo didn't progress Zelda from there on out, based on what Majora's Mask did.

Here goes.

Majora's Mask progressed the series naturally, it furthered upon everything. Offered the player MORE GAME, in almost every way. To sum it up easily; it was one of the few N64 games that required the Expansion Pak! More characters on-screen, more polished visuals, even more in-depth environments. And a more detailed, overall game world.

I HATED IT! I absolutely ABHORRED the three day cycle! Thought it was such a hindrance, and didn't like it from a gameplay standpoint, not ONE bit. I've realized, however, how significant it was from a technological and development standpoint, especially given the time!

All of you Elder Scrolls nutswingers... don't get offended! DON'T GET OFFENDED!

...Majora's Mask, was actually the FIRST to do what Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion did. Bethesda merely pulled a Bill Gates, and beat Nintendo to the job at furthering this wondrous gaming development. Bethesda's Radiant AI system is DEFINITELY, without a DOUBT, a progression of Majora's Mask three-day cycle.

Who knows. Maybe Nintendo themselves didn't even realize how big of an achievement the three-day cycle was. But it's pretty clear now.

As you all know, depending on the day, and more precisely - the TIME of day in Majora's Mask's day cycles, characters will be doing different things. In a more detailed way than what we've seen in OoT. They are performing different tasks, carrying out different actions. Quests are done in correlation to the time of day, pertaining to individual characters.

I'm an Elder Scrolls fan, too. I poured a quarter of my LIFE into Oblivion. But this isn't the time for fanboyism. Majora's Mask, did it first.

Nintendo must further upon this!

They must take this to the next level, and show everyone that THEY DID THIS. I'm hoping that Zelda Wii U exhibits this. As well as many of the things Majora's Mask developed a foundation for. Majora's Mask was a major installment in the Zelda series, while at the same time being a DIRECT sequel to Ocarina of Time. That in itself, was huge. It was proof that Nintendo could take a narrative, and make it more direct, seemingly smaller in terms of significance, but the end product actually exudes SO MUCH EMOTION. So much SERIOUSNESS.

The POLAR OPPOSITE of what we got in, say... Skyward Sword. Which was MEDIOCRITY.

Case and point. As masskillzO25 pointed out recently:

"There are reasons that MM is one of the greatest games of all time, reasons that some people over look or do not realize. From the Deku Butler's son and what happened to him (without being told) to the emotional and tragic story of Anju and Kafei, MM allows the gamer to involve themselves in the lives of these characters. It did this, as well as just all of the side quests in general, the best in ANY game series. Not just Zelda."

It's time to bring out that emotion again, and keep it serious, keep the mediocrity of the presentation OUT!

Majora's Mask gave us MORE GAME, in almost EVERY way. It Gave us more detailed environments. Pushed practically EVERYTHING to the next level. Said NO to the Master Sword. It is the rightful bearer of a cyclical day system that incorporates dynamic AI. It was a direct sequel that took the series in a bold new direction, and exuded SO MUCH powerful emotion that i can still feel to this day whenever i play the Song of Healing in my mind.

Do it again, Nintendo.

DO, IT, AGAIN! Let everyone know that Zelda not only instilled the foundations for open-world video games, but that Majora's Mask did so much more.

Carry on the natural progression that Majora's Mask started so extremely well!

CLIFF NOTES: OP LIKES OBLIVION BUT ZELDA DID IT FIRST SO ZELDA NEEDS TO BE MORE LIKE OBLIVION

in truth majora's mask is not all that 'significant'.. as much as i love the game.. miyamoto had other plans for the franchise since the gamecube was on the horizon but aonuma wanted to do some kind of a sequel on the 64.. so as an after thought miyamoto said if he could do it within a year that he would ok it.. so aonuma had to frantically piece together a 'sequel'..

what aonuma accomplished in a year is the real testament.. zelda would never be this unique again because of aonuma's desperate grasp at creativity.. save for maybe the oracle games.. but otherwise MM shows us that the zelda formula IS in fact malleable.. and that in the right hands the formula can do a wealth of awesome things..

personally i dont know why people keep making this comparison of zelda to elder scrolls.. to me.. if anything.. elder scrolls is a suped up D&D game with character creation.. and zelda is just the child's eye version of that D&D world..

elder scrolls is a 'big boy' game.. zelda is not.. elder scrolls was doing things in gaming LONG before zelda was even in 3D.. daggerfall's open world game play dropped in 96.. OoT's 'open-world' in 98.. if anything zelda is trying to be more like elder scrolls..

which isnt a bad thing.. like say.. bethesda has been making 'big boy' games for many a year now.. and zelda is just coming up on these ideas.. i mean shit-link's got stamina now.. so fuck it!! we've already seen from MM's fantastic world and gamepay that zelda as a franchise can do many things if done right.. so the possibility of a fleshier.. meatier.. bigger.. more badass zelda is certainly a possibility..

i wasnt talking about the day and night cycling.. i meant in terms of size and scope.. MM was only given a year of development.. imagine what they could have done on SS's budget and development period..

i wasnt talking about the day and night cycling.. i meant in terms of size and scope.. MM was only given a year of development.. imagine what they could have done on SS's budget and development period..

and you are new to me and therefore new cause i say so.. ..

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Well, that's alright. Size isn't much of an accomplishment. It's more of a will, of the developers. I'm just mainly talking about the NPCs, and their behaviour/actions. How they change.

It's time to carry on what Majora's Mask started.

People are apparently tired of the Master Sword, too.

Well... my answer to that: Majora's Mask.

Does the main weapon HAVE to be the Master Sword? Nope.

Majora's Mask, if it had a personality equivalent... it would totally be the rebel.

I see you are placing a strangely heavy emphasis on Elder Scrolls being the "big boy" world of video games, and Zelda is somehow in desperate need of living up to it. In many ways, when speaking about gameplay systems and scope, you are definitely going to find a lot of people agreeing with you here. But it's really detrimental to also expect Zelda should emulate Elder Scrolls (if that's what you are saying). I mean Zelda is going through growing pains mostly because it keeps recycling the same gameplay systems, but these systems aren't really being fleshed out and expanded to a degree that long time fans might want. I think if it learns anything from Elder Scrolls, it should be in a more general sense, and they should avoid cherry picking concepts and systems and just inserting them in Zelda, that leads to rote and uninspired design, and over time would not only fail to address the current problems with the series, but it might make them worse if handled so bluntly.

Edit: I realize the entire text of this might not be directly relevant to a specific person, so I changed it to be aimed at everyone else as well

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I must say, I love passion for MM, but I don't think it's really accurate or fair to represent this board as a place where MM doesn't get recognition, there are a lot of huge fans of it here (myself included) that are very vocal about it when given the chance. Hell I can remember years back some big discussions we all had regarding how the world of MM relates to OoT and what some of the deeper mythology of the land of Termina could be. Much like Elder Scrolls, what MM accomplished was creating a world that felt lived in. Modern Elder Scrolls games have the advantage of literally being big but they function on a system that I don't think is compatible with the core Zelda philosophy, and probably shouldn't be, which is more generic content design so that it can be reproduced in many different ways. What's interesting is that this is the kind of angle Miyamoto sort of wanted with the original Zelda - randomized content using the same character and tilesets to create the illusion of a huge diverse world.

MM was an answer to how to make Zelda feel huge, without resorting to things like say, a giant ocean or an empty sky. Not that people didn't love sailing in WW(and some hated it), but that was a physical solution to a problem that could be solved with art, characters, beautiful maps, and a feeling of history on the landscape. I'm sure someone could argue with me that WW accomplished that as well, but I think MM is indeed the pinnacle of Zelda games that tried to creature culture in each part of the map, and tried hard to make you care about the people you were saving. Each dungeon was a mini-story, and the games emphasis on the Bombers Notebook, and the NPCs are what made it so vibrant feeling at the time.

I love a good chance to rant about MM and its positives, and what modern Zelda's can still learn from it regarding scope, forced limitation, and creativity of world design.

Side Note: Someone from 2008 is not new, that's 5 years of activity. Just because you go all the way back to 2002 doesn't mean much. People shouldn't troll users like that, it's not really funny or endearing, it's just mean and condescending, intended or not.

im actually not placing any emphasis on what zelda should be like at all.. zelda is zelda.. im saying that zelda has a lot of its own potential.. ..having large open worlds to explore 'like' elder scrolls is not outside of zelda's ability.. with all the games and all the lore and all the things zelda has done over the years it has the ability to be better the ES.. i just dont know why nintendo doesnt run with it..

im actually not placing any emphasis on what zelda should be like at all.. zelda is zelda.. im saying that zelda has a lot of its own potential.. ..having large open worlds to explore 'like' elder scrolls is not outside of zelda's ability.. with all the games and all the lore and all the things zelda has done over the years it has the ability to be better the ES.. i just dont know why nintendo doesnt run with it..

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Well back up a second. Having a larger and more expansive world is totally possible, but Elder Scrolls scope works because of the simplicity of puzzle solving in that game. It's all about procedural generated content, if Zelda went that route it would mean a lot less specific themed dungeons, and a lot more generic, but still potentially fun ones. It would be primarily combat, and repeated puzzles, because there is no programming way to create a series of randomly generated complex and unique puzzles without making them all conform to basic rules like the puzzles of Oblivion or Skyrim (switches and levers mostly, and the wheel puzzles of Skyrim).

On the opposite argument to this, you might say "they manually created all those dungeons!" well I don't know if they did or not but even if they did, it's because of how simple the design is, it makes it effectively easy to do because there's no character or uniqueness to it in general. All caves look alike. Zelda does this too actually with its "holes in the ground" and we would basically be seeing a shitload more of that unless they figure out a way to change the Zelda formula without removing some of these key elements.

Look at any game with a giant world, and that is how they work. GTA, Shadow of the Colossus, Elder Scrolls. They have lots of cool things to do and see, but in general it's still all cut from the same cloth (shadow works because it's just a big beautiful art show with some boss battles), whereas Zelda's strength (MM specifically) is creating multiple very unique looking places. We shouldn't want to sacrifice this just for scope, and we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking Skyrim level size is really feasible without removing that Zelda design element.

Edit: This is my opinion, but it's born from a practical application of game development resources, and game design choices regarding time versus money. I think a bigger more lore rich Zelda world is possible, but there will be a price if it gets to a certain size just for the sake of feeling large.

The pointless comparison to Oblivion which amounted to a false hipster-like claim. Saying MM was the first to do the day/night system and tie it to side stuff via time of day when an example of it being used in such a way existed in titles of another Nintendo juggernaut series (Pokemon Silver/Gold) before MM. Saying MM took the series to a bold new direction when the next two handhelds and console game differed drastically from MM.

I'm all for giving Majora's Mask the love it deserves but this wasn't the best way to do it. Praise Majora's Mask for what it did right and what it did to strengthen the series. List contributions the game gave which are still being used. That sort of thing. Don't build up a comparison to Oblivion which ends with a false statement

im not saying we should sacrifice zelda's uniqueness for scope.. im saying its uniqueness can be expounded upon in ways that wouldnt even require a nod to any other franchise.. like GTA.. or elderscrolls..

if they took MM and gave it the development treatment that SS got or TP or even WW.. the game would have been so much more.. but a year in development.. though still a complete success.. was still a year.. i can only imagine what corners aonuma had to cut or what never even made it off the drawing board..

i want shiggy and team to get the ability to do anything and everything they want with a zelda game with no hardware or budget restricitions.. i want GTA budget and development period.. i want the biggest baddest zelda that there could possibly be period.. cost be damned!!

The pointless comparison to Oblivion which amounted to a false hipster-like claim. Saying MM was the first to do the day/night system and tie it to side stuff via time of day when an example of it being used in such a way existed in titles of another Nintendo juggernaut series (Pokemon Silver/Gold) before MM. Saying MM took the series to a bold new direction when the next two handhelds and console game differed drastically from MM.

I'm all for giving Majora's Mask the love it deserves but this wasn't the best way to do it.

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Well, i guess you're still on your own on that laugh.

I just wish i could laugh with you. But, i can't.

I didn't say MM did the day/night cycle first... that much is pretty freakin' obvious. Given the fact that OoT, the previous game, did so already.

I'm talking purely about NPC behaviour/actions. Which other Nintendo game even came close to MM? Video, or it didn't happen.

I'm not here to banter and debate over who truly did what first. I'm just saying that Zelda should follow through with what was already done. Because it hasn't.

False, hipster-like claim?

Then i guess you being so forward about taking something positive, and trying to make it seem negative, makes you a hater.

That was... a hater/troll-like claim.

We're not here to debate who did what first. Although i still stand with MM being the first to take NPC behaviour to a new level.

Praise Majora's Mask for what it did right and what it did to strengthen the series. List contributions the game gave which are still being used. That sort of thing. Don't build up a comparison to Oblivion which ends with a false statement

You should spend some time considering the ramifications of "no budget". It would not be as beneficial as you think. People thrive when challenged, not when given unlimited time. As consumers we should still consider what it means to make these products. Majora's Mask was likely not expensive, but also didn't take much time or money from Nintendo because they got to re-use assets.

Also if you want examples of "huge amounts of time and money" not always equaling a good job, just look at L.A. Noir. That game didn't really live up to its development cycle at all.

That being said, more time and money is still needed for a larger game, but you should take the time to research game development and understand what you are asking for. It will make you appreciate what you get a lot more, and understand what makes some things easy, and other things not so easy.

Majora's Mask plus more time and money could easily have killed the charm and inundated the game with things it didn't need, and you forget that the entire premise of the game was because they had limited time and resources. It wouldn't have existed without that premise.

I trust that Nintendo wouldn't just run away troll faced stupid with their own franchise.. they've just never done it before.. and I feel it is the time.. right now Nintendo as a whole is the equivalent of a magickarp useing splash..

they need a big push.. and I don't really see them doing it any other way except for an overpriced Zelda and/or Mario..

I trust that Nintendo wouldn't just run away troll faced stupid with their own franchise.. they've just never done it before.. and I feel it is the time.. right now Nintendo as a whole is the equivalent of a magickarp useing splash..

they need a big push.. and I don't really see them doing it any other way except for an overpriced Zelda and/or Mario..

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They don't really need a big push though. Long term it is in their interest to reinvent themselves when necessary, but there is no imminent threat of downfall so rash decisions would be unwise. This being said, the next Zelda is going to be a clear sign of whether the franchise is headed for big things, or will drown in its own recycled content. But again, we aren't there yet, not until sales are so bad Nintendo has to enact mass layoffs and cancel hardware launches.

Please don't bother making this into a "Nintendo is in trouble if they don't do this" argument because those don't hold water. We all are smart enough to know that Nintendo is still very far from the danger zone. We are seeing some cultural shifts in gaming, but nobody is dead yet, and only a sith deals in absolutes.

umm.. i never said that a magickarp wasnt useful.. understand the analogy..

but to say that nintendo doesnt need to adjust itself drastically to the obvious 'cultural shifts' in gaming is just as ridiculous an argument..

the culture shifted many years ago and nintendo has only recently given a real answer to it with the wii U.. a system with a lot of 'up in the air' and half realized functionality.. in the wake of systems that are promising things i cant even half way believe..

im just saying.. that you can huff and puff about whatever.. but the reality of it is.. ..a push wouldnt hurt.. and a really GOOD push would be zelda on 'roids!!

Jill I said a cultural shift IS necessary, not isn't. Also I am discussing with you the intricacies of game development, don't use language like huff and puff to just make me look stupid, its degrading, rude, and undermines the conversation

Jill if you gain nothing else from this, at least realize that not everyone is trying to argue with you. Your last post was aimed squarely at disagreeing with me, whereas my last post was aimed at diving deeper into your line of thought and what that means for game development. It's a boring discussion if all you want to do is assert that Nintendo "must be better". We all agree that Nintendo should strive to be better, it's a boring premise. We want to talk about the why's and the how's in terms more specific than "be bigger in scope and push hard".

Please contribute to the discussion, don't spend time arguing when you don't have to.

If you reread what I've said so far you'll see that you and I share many opinions, but your last post makes it seem like you'd rather see everyone else as being opposed to you so you can disagree, rather than find common ground and talk about it.

Edit: I take personal offense when someone tries to convince me that I read something wrong that can't be misinterpreted. You said Nintendo as a whole is like a splashing magikarp. I've played Pokemon too, I know that translates directly to "Nintendo is useless, like a splashing magikarp". There is no other analogy interpretation there, you called them a floundering fish, do you know of another way to read that? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm literally asking how I misunderstood you.

I meant a drastic shift.. not just the slow plodding we've been getting..

.. you forgot to mention that we were doing it on an anonymous internet gaming forum.. so if you take this stuff seriously.. then you'll just have to get used to me bro.. I say what I mean and I mean what I say.. and if I can say it concisely with a phrase like huff and puff then ill do it.. if you think its rude feel free to not like it.. a fuck will not be given.. but I'm not gonna mince my words for you..

I don't live and die for this, but anyone that has visited this forum for 10 years now probably has a slight vested interest in its content and community's well being.
Nothing you would change your life for, but offering decency, clarity, and kindness are important things. If you think that being a message board means you don't need to give a shit about how you communicate, are you really communicating at all? When you approach things that way you are basically treating the message board as a facebook status update for yourself where you periodically give opinions and tell people to fuck off if they don't like it.

It's not that I think it's rude, it is rude. But that's not the point.

And you know what the point is, because you are being a troll, and it isn't endearing or funny. Stop trolling and start communicating. If you weren't trying to troll, you wouldn't have made the magikarp comment, and you wouldn't have tried to twist your own words about it to pretend you meant something else. It's not that you "say things the way you say them", you are deliberately trolling to get a rise out of people, and you've accomplished that with me. But I just wanted to point out that's what you are doing.

You are free to continue to be a jerk about how you speak to others, but I'm never going to understand why you, after being here so long, would resort to that type of behavior.

Edit: The magikarp thing is not the main point here, so please don't get stuck on that. It's just an example.

Correction, magikarp is still a bad example if going by industry leaders.

I tried doing the same thing with my Twilight Princess thread... but, as i've mentioned elsewhere, people really didn't seem to understand and get the message. Twilight Princess moved the series forward in both very noticeable ways, and not-so-noticeable ways. In small fragments that could only be noticed by a very in-depth observer.

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As far as this thread goes, I have no idea what is going on, but I approve the above statement. For as much Majora's Mask got do in a year, even if they recycled NPCs, Twilight Princess must have been one of the most labor, time, and detail intensive in the series. Too bad it isn't as well received.

I remember when MM first came out it seemed to be not as cool as OoT at all among people I knew, but it's neat that it's since been recognized for some of the unique things it accomplished. I hated it at first too, especially the 3 day cycle/saving system, but now it's my favorite along with WW. OoT seems kinda boring to me now in comparison.

MM is a perfect example of creative limitation; It's like Green Eggs and Ham by Dr. Seuss, who wrote it on a bet to make an entire book in under 50 words. I think it would be neat for Nintendo to do this again. We might get something really unique and maybe a lot sooner than the usual half a decade or whatever wait it is between Zelda games.

And although they didn't do it entirely "first" like Falcor pointed out, it still remains one of the most engaging games in terms of its NPCs. When I think about MM, which I haven't played in a long time, that's one of the first things I remember - being in the room with the mayor while the camera bounces back and forth between each character, deliberating on whether they should go along with the carnival or evacuate the town. The game felt so alive in this way.

And yeah, you never get that feeling from Oblivion or Skyrim. The initial "Oh my gosh I can go do whatever I want" can quickly be replaced by "Oh, it's another guard that sounds like Ahnold" and "Oh look, more brown dungeons".

I just want to start off by addressing Jill. I'm not sure if this is even worthy of bringing up, but I must validate what Stache said about this message board being a community. We are people who communicate with each other through this forum, so even if something petty like this is brought up, it should be pointed out that it's wrong. It's rare to see a user whose been around for so long act this stubborn, but every one makes mistakes.

Now, Striker; MM is indeed a remarkable game with a profound impact on this series. It is significant to the franchise because of its story and because of its many side quests. It evoked many feelings of despair and melancholy multiple times through out the game. I'm not sure if any other Zelda game did a job half as well as MM, evoking such emotions, as MM has done in one side quest.

The game made the gamer connect with the atmosphere. The gamer read between the lines multiple times. You were involved with the game and the story, compelled to help people in their time of need, during a time of terminal and terror. The game was unmatched, I'll give you that.

To say this game is most significant would be, IMO, incorrect. I just don't see it. It's a game that simply tells the story of the Hero of Time after the main story. Ironically, that story was told in OOT, which I personally feel is the most significant game to the series. I won't get into why.

MM is without a doubt one of the greatest games/Zelda games of all time, and forever will be. No questions asked. The only reason I feel it does not qualify to have the most impact is because it isn't the story pertaining to the actual legend. But this is not even an issue I have with this game, in fact, I don't have any! I love the game for what it is, and it is indeed a side quest. The greatest side quest of all time, but just a side quest.

Comparing a franchise like Zelda to Oblivion, or any other RPG for the matter isn't as ludicrous as it sounds. Afterall, a game in the Zelda series carried RPG elements heavily in it. I feel the line should be taken as far as the eye can see in a vast over world. I do not believe Zelda should acquire RPG elements in the game play and story progression; however the way RPG's emulate their over world is something that I feel needs to be done in a game like Zelda. The multiple villages and vast land scapes will only add to the seemingly limited exploration factor. It needs to be revived, and my gut tells me Zelda Wii U is on the right path.

Now that I've had a chance to read the entirety of this thread I see now where my fault lies..

@stache19.. you edit a lot.. and write prolifically.. so I didn't get to read a lot of the stuff that you wrote.. this is not an excuse.. but i post a lot from the job or from my phone.. so I don't go back and read everything the board does.. it is not kind enough to alert you on edits.. ..

but.. i got confused.. got you with some fire arrows prematurely.. now that I'm at the job again.. I see my oops..

Now that I've had a chance to read the entirety of this thread I see now where my fault lies..

@stache19.. you edit a lot.. and write prolifically.. so I didn't get to read a lot of the stuff that you wrote.. this is not an excuse.. but i post a lot from the job or from my phone.. so I don't go back and read everything the board does.. it is not kind enough to alert you on edits.. ..

but.. i got confused.. got you with some fire arrows prematurely.. now that I'm at the job again.. I see my oops..

I never post via cell phone lol I usually just read something and tag for later. But it's cool, Im sure Stache will understand. It's nice to see you around here, as well as other familiar faces. Glad I returned... gotta miss a little drama these boards served back in the day lol.

Now that I've had a chance to read the entirety of this thread I see now where my fault lies..

@stache19.. you edit a lot.. and write prolifically.. so I didn't get to read a lot of the stuff that you wrote.. this is not an excuse.. but i post a lot from the job or from my phone.. so I don't go back and read everything the board does.. it is not kind enough to alert you on edits.. ..

but.. i got confused.. got you with some fire arrows prematurely.. now that I'm at the job again.. I see my oops..

Yep. MM and TP both. Limited due to time, and in the case of TP, because of the Gamecube.

And to finally clear things up... i'm not exactly saying that Majora's Mask did things FIRST. It emphasized these things. It was a shining example of how things SHOULD BE TAKEN TO THE NEXT LEVEL, for the sake of giving a game, giving GAMERS more GAME. That's all. It's quite ridiculous when people misunderstand you to the point where they troll/hate.

My comparison to Elder Scrolls was purely between Majora's Mask's day cycling correlated to its NPCs. In response to Bethesda's Radiant AI system. That's all.

I was basically pulling a Braveheart... and saying that Zelda must remind everyone that it can grab the attention of other gamers. It must stray away from mediocrity, and bring back seriousness. Emotion. Powerful charisma. A level of completeness not found in many games.

I'm not here to compare Elder Scrolls to Zelda, and spark a debate. I love both games for what they are.

But i've really noticed a decline for Zelda in the last several years, particularly in its level of presentation.

And basically... everything i've said before.

"When I think about MM, which I haven't played in a long time, that's one of the first things I remember - being in the room with the mayor while the camera bounces back and forth between each character, deliberating on whether they should go along with the carnival or evacuate the town. The game felt so alive in this way."

Exactly what i'm trying to say...

It needs to be livened up. And i HAVE tried to say this before, with my Twilight Princess thread. The Castle Town was the liveliest we've ever seen. And the NPCs were SLIIIGHTLY more complex. Rather.. their actions were. Guards patroling the streets. Music being played in the town square. Details like that.

When a game has chained itself down in terms of progression, details like that aren't hard to notice.

I agree with you 100%. I'm saying that MMs certain aspects (pretty much ALL of which you mentioned) are a right way of moving forward. And NO Zelda afterwards has done so to improve upon what Majora's Mask started. That's all.

Ocarina of Time DEFINED 3D Zelda, and its basic gameplay formula. I still put Ocarina above MM. Hell, as i've said, i haven't even beaten MM completely. If there's any special connection i have with a game, it's Ocarina of Time.

I'm just saying; Majora's Mask did these very, very special things for Zelda's progression. Twilight Princess also tried, but in bits and pieces in regards to NPCs. And in a more noticeable way in terms of game world!

Majora's Mask really nailed it, when it comes to NPC interaction. How sidequests were done. How game design and mechanics can become more complex. And ultimately, how developers can give us gamers MORE GAME.

Oh yeah. Also, we're mutual when it comes to said gut feeling of Zelda Wii U. I have a feeling they're going to blow our minds...

At first I HATED this game for a number of reasons and had a hard time trying to stay motivated to keep playing. I also hated the 3-day cycle. I found it tedious and distracting. Plus it didn't make any logical sense how you would lose some things but not others. You lose all your bombs, arrows and rupees, but keep your masks and the banker still remembers you. WTF? I'm not usually that dense, but for some reason the owl save system confused the hell out of me. The way the owl explained it was just... ugh. I never bothered trying to figure it out since I was playing with an emulator anyway and relied on the emulator save states.

Another thing I found frustrating was trying to find my way around Clock Town. As a noob, I just kept wandering around in circles without any sense of direction. Buying a map certainly helped. For awhile I was running in circles, not knowing what to do. The side quests seemed tedious, the storyline was weird & confusing, nothing made sense, the masks seemed like an annoying gimmick. I didn't care for the dark visual style (Deku Link looks so sad). I even hated the Clock Town theme music (and still don't really care for it).

In the beginning, I hated MM from top to bottom. Many times I thought about putting MM on the shelf and forgetting about it, but I persevered. I kept at it and it eventually won me over and I grew to love it. Between OoT and MM, it's hard to say which one I like more. Ocarina of Time was everything a Zelda game should be. It gave me a warm, safe, fuzzy feeling, like returning home. Majora's Mask felt like leaving one's comfort zone and discovering a brand new world. I guess I like them both equally. They're both great games in their own right.

Btw, I posted my thoughts about MM pretty extensively on this thread: (in fact, you might say I monopolized the thread )

Is there any particular part you're stuck on? Stone Temple Tower gave me a headache because of the way you have to keep flipping it upside-down, and all the backtracking, plus the aggravation of trying to catch all those stupid stray fairies. I later realized you could skip the fairy quest because your reward is the Great Fairy Sword, which doesn't really come in handy. Though I must admit, the designers did a good job of making it challenging. It was kind of brilliant.

The final battle with Majora's Mask itself is significantly easier if you have the Fierce Diety mask. You need to collect all 24 masks in order to get it. I was surprised at how easy the final battle was. I was like "This is it? It looked so much harder on YouTube!"

Yep. MM and TP both. Limited due to time, and in the case of TP, because of the Gamecube.

And to finally clear things up... i'm not exactly saying that Majora's Mask did things FIRST. It emphasized these things. It was a shining example of how things SHOULD BE TAKEN TO THE NEXT LEVEL, for the sake of giving a game, giving GAMERS more GAME. That's all. It's quite ridiculous when people misunderstand you to the point where they troll/hate.

My comparison to Elder Scrolls was purely between Majora's Mask's day cycling correlated to its NPCs. In response to Bethesda's Radiant AI system. That's all.

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Yep, I get what you've been saying.

Another thing I liked about MM's NPCs was the feeling it captured like you were really in the middle of a conversation. It reminded me of when you're a kid, and you're listening to a bunch of adults talking about something. I think this was enhanced by the camera bouncing to each character like I mentioned before, and even through the design of the rooms in the buildings. The characters were perfectly blocked in their locations as they spoke, kind of like you'd see on a TV show with actors. The way you'd only hear them if you encountered so and so at a particular time really mimicked what it's like in real life if you happen upon people discussing something. All in really cozy, detailed little rooms. It felt so real. When you're just talking to one person at a time to only acquire information for yourself, it's boring. This made it feel other people have stuff going on in their lives.

Bethesda attempts this sense of realism in their own way, but really their system is all about random, and any conversations you encounter are between stiff, lifeless characters with really hammy dialogue. It's ridiculous in an unintentional sort of way. Still fun, but you just don't care about any of them. Why they included marriage is beyond me; how am I supposed to have feelings for some guy that keeps repeating "NEED SOMETHING"? And "HELLO DEAR, BACK FROM MORE ADVENTURING, I BET!". And ooh, he randomly uses the cooking pot. Oh, now he's using a broom!

So yeah, I prefer Zelda's more scripted, planned out and polished NPCs over Bethesda's glitch ridden, dull, spazzy NPCs. But that's what you get when you're making massive worlds as opposed to quaint little towns. Both can definitely learn from the other, though: I'd love to see Zelda incorporate more intelligent AI with NPCs like you say, and Bethesda to create more unique characters that have interesting lives. My husband was so boring.

It needs to be livened up. And i HAVE tried to say this before, with my Twilight Princess thread. The Castle Town was the liveliest we've ever seen. And the NPCs were SLIIIGHTLY more complex. Rather.. their actions were. Guards patroling the streets. Music being played in the town square. Details like that.

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I forgot about that in TP...I thought that was neat. There's a perfect example like you say of a tiny detail that really does add to the experience. More little things like this are just what the next Zelda needs.

I was actually aware of how innovative Ocarina of Time's sequel was. You're right, Majora's Mask, unlike it's predecessor, had much less of an emphasis on the actual story at hand. It, perhaps like Link's Awakening, focused more on NPC interaction and the types of tasks you could preform. On top of all of this, all of these events took advantage of the 3-day cycle.

On a side note, I disagree with you with what you say about the 3-day cycle. As I stated above, it added another dimension to the gameplay and was just as significant, if not more so, than the time traveling in Ocarina of Time. The cycle has a learning curve and because of that I don't recommend Majora's Mask to newcomers to the Zelda series, but it's an engaging gameplay and plot device throughout the game.

I was actually aware of how innovative Ocarina of Time's sequel was. You're right, Majora's Mask, unlike it's predecessor, had much less of an emphasis on the actual story at hand. It, perhaps like Link's Awakening, focused more on NPC interaction and the types of tasks you could preform. On top of all of this, all of these events took advantage of the 3-day cycle.

On a side note, I disagree with you with what you say about the 3-day cycle. As I stated above, it added another dimension to the gameplay and was just as significant, if not more so, than the time traveling in Ocarina of Time. The cycle has a learning curve and because of that I don't recommend Majora's Mask to newcomers to the Zelda series, but it's an engaging gameplay and plot device throughout the game.