Comments on: A New Face in an Old Fighthttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/
Blogging From the Five BoroughsThu, 06 Oct 2011 16:51:56 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=4.0.1http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/section/NytSectionHeader.gifNYThttp://www.nytimes.com
By: Queenshttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-863645
Sun, 06 Feb 2011 14:02:05 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-863645@c: I agree with everything you said. The VAMs only focus on literacy and math teachers, so if merit pay or layoff decisions are based on these flawed data, there is no way to determine who the most effective art teacher, science teacher, music teacher, gym teacher, speech therapist (who are considered pedagogues), and social studies teachers are. “Effectivess” will simply translate into “who’s the cheapest to retain?” There is no way to compare even two teachers in the same license area because the characteristics of their classes and how they interact with them will always be unique. I’m so so so so tired of the teacher-bashers.
]]>By: Queenshttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-863641
Sun, 06 Feb 2011 13:56:09 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-863641@Sandra #19: Before I begin, I want you to understand that I’m not attacking you or your comment. I’m just curious – how many years do you have in? Are you one of the new special education teachers? Having been in the trenches, and having taught at levels ranging from preschool to graduate school (with the exception of elementary grades), I now have enough experience to know that less-experienced teachers usually put in more hours in the beginning simply because they lack the experence to know how to streamline their activities. You say you’re not generalizing about older, more experienced teachers, but the only things you write about are seeing them with their feet up reading a newspaper. Because teachers are so diverse and because there’s no surefire way to determine who “deserves” to be in the profession more than anyone else, seniority is the simplest and most effective way of protecting the profession. Protect the profession and you protect the kids. The soundbyte notion that older teachers don’t care about their students is a load of nonsense. Perhaps if you and your young colleagues last long enough to actually have seniority and tenure, and decide to stay with the profession, you will begin to understand why these protections are necessary. I know a teacher who worked for over 50 years before deciding to retire last June — she never tired of planning lessons, engaging the students, and volunteering (ie, for no extra pay) for programs around the school. She was the highest-paid teacher I knew – but after 50 years in the system and two masters degrees, she deserved it. Do you think that after all those years of effective service she should not have her Tier I pension? Doesn’t she deserve to be comfortable in her old age? I worked in the system long enough to be vested in my pension and I make no apologies for it – I worked hard, I served my students, and I expect to reap the benefits of my very very small pension when I retire. Klein is a multimillionaire and is now pulling an additional $34,000 from the public pension system. Who knows what Nadelstern got? So, Sandra, wait a few more years before you fully form your opinions of the Old Ones. Because you yourself will be an Old One some day.
]]>By: Jahnayhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858633
Thu, 27 Jan 2011 00:47:55 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858633Definitely a solution to future teachers staying in the profession long enough to collect a pension. Fire all teachers – not before they have the experience to be really good teachers – but fire them before they put in the years required to be vested in a pension.
]]>By: chttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858613
Thu, 27 Jan 2011 00:11:22 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858613There is no way to determine what teacher is better then the other. Every situation is different.
Children are not robots.

Some teachers have more behavior problems then others, some kids can be in the mist of a crises and act out in school, middle school kids are off the hook in every way shape and form (that’s why no one wants to teach them), academic abilities and levels are always a wide range in every class.

It’s impossible to recreate the same grouping and the exact situation for every teacher. We work with humans.

That’s why your supposed to leave these decisions to the prinicpal because she understands the school environment.

Teachers report and document to their prinicpal about students. We also log parent contact, write anecdotals and maintain classroom logs for reporting purposes. This is very important and we have to do this every evening.

There is no formula that can compare different situations or environments. Each year my class is entirely different and student personalities and charecteristics are too. The teacher down the hall and myself have entirely different student groups. It will always be like this.

]]>By: Sandrahttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858595
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 23:49:34 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858595In the public special education school in which I work, it is the least experienced teachers who expend the most time and effort on planning lessons, collaborating with colleagues, managing behavior, individualizing instruction, and keeping up on current educational strategies and reforms. They arrive the earliest and leave the latest, often spending 11 or 12 hour days at school and then going home to do more work on the couch. And thanks to all of this, despite the steep learning curve for new teachers, they are significantly more effective than the more experienced teachers on our staff. This is demonstrated in periodic assessments, data collection, administrator and colleague observations, and that general sense that parents and colleagues feel when they walk into their classroom. Although it is not always true of more experienced educators, some I know sit at a desk and read a newspaper during class, or have non-work related conversations with their assistants in front of students, or simply do not apply any of the methods they’ve been presented in professional development despite nodding and smiling and saying they understand and agree that those methods will be useful. And when I know that my less experienced colleagues are getting paid $30,000 or $40,000 less than the teachers who have been around longer despite the fact that they work significantly longer hours and produce better results, I am resentful. I don’t have a master plan for how to judge teacher efficacy but I do agree that the seniority and tenure rules should be changed so that the teachers who work the hardest and are the most effective are rewarded.
]]>By: rhubarbpiehttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858555
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:17:34 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858555One question I’d like someone to ask Ms. Black is how she concluded that her position — changing the seniority system — is right. Perhaps it was the long experience she’s had in education?

It reminds me of a meeting I once attended with the new (and unqualified) head of a major public entity in the region. He stated his top three priorities; when he was asked why one of them had made it into the list (since it wasn’t really a priority for anyone but the Bloomberg administration), he said he assumed it had been vetted by his predecessor, to which everyone in the room replied: “Well, actually, it never was.”

He was surprised, but he had been told to say it was a priority and didn’t have enough smarts to challenge it. (The project continues, by the way.)

]]>By: Samhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858503
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:53:05 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858503This is a difficult issue. Yes more experienced teachers are more expensive, as they should be, most professionals are paid more as they gain more experience.
But not all tenured teachers are good teachers, so why should bad tenured teachers be retained while good new teachers are dismised due to budget cuts?

If there is no way to judge a teacher, which I don’t agree with, than the union should agree to some lottery system where each bracket has to lay off a certain number regardless of good, bad or otherwise. The city will lay off 20 0-3 years teachers, 20 5-7 years, 20 7-10, 20 10-14, 20 14-20, and so on all the way to the top.

As for evaluation of teachers, yes it is difficult because different teachers teach different children in different subjects, etc. But teachers within one school could be evaluated against each other, no claim that they are teaching different childre, all the math teachers could be compared against each other as to the same socio-economic class of schools.

No it would not be fool proof, but at least there would be some process and some accountability. I’m all for unions but I’m not all for unions protecting their bad members to the detriment of their good members. And I would assume that the good members, the ones who are going above and beyond, thinking outside of the box, reaching difficult students, staying late, providing tutoring, etc. wouldn’t want the bad members retained any more than the rest of us.

]]>By: Celso Garciahttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858393
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 18:47:20 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858393The DOE teachers has a retention problem not a recruitment problem. They feel as if they bring more and more educators out of the city to stay for two years or less one day they will be able to convince enough of them to stay. Guess what because of all the teacher abuse many schools have dropped their education majors because of lack of demand. So now teachers do not get paid much yet have to give up their job security, pensions and health benefits. Teachers pay from their paychecks large deductions for all these benefits. Most people I know thought teaching was easy until they stepped into a classroom with35 children and had to keep them motivated for 90 minutes. With no help and inexperienced administrators. We say why can we not be like china educationally? In China teaching is a respected profession and society backs you and suppourts you 100%. They be lieve in building up teachers not knocking them down every che they get.
]]>By: dominickspezhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858183
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 14:53:58 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858183Why is it the Mayor feels it necessary to speak for the new Chancellor and not let her take the stage. As he said what she says in public is different then what is said in private anyway. Just a thought – my father always said only deal with people that say what they mean and do what they say–old school kind of a guy that believed your word is a sacred bond—hmm
]]>By: Ruthhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858137
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 13:16:51 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858137My husband, an arts educator, frequently spends time in charter schools. Often while he is in a classroom, the teachers, who are invariably very young, are texting or talking on their cell phones, rather than interacting with the class. He even had one teacher who would nap while he was in the classroom. He says that he sees very little engagement with the children unless someone is misbehaving. This is in contrast with some of the public schools where he takes his programs, where the most experienced teachers are very engaged with the enrichment activities he’s introducing to the children.
]]>By: Margaret M. Nolanhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858119
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:05:13 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858119Sounds like the Mayor and the Chancellor have already identified their idea of the “best” teachers: the cheapos. Never mind the huge turnover of non-tenured teachers each year, the dollar rules.
Given all the variables in the teacher/student equation, it is simplistic to use test scores, or youth, or any single panacea to determine teacher layoffs.
Over the years, one measurement, little used,has proved to be reliable: principals who spend the recommended 10% of their time in classroom settings can usually identify accurately the better teachers.
Try that as a mandate, Ms Black!
]]>By: Mikie Bhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858103
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:08:24 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858103Experienced teachers are more expensive than new teachers. That and only that is the reason why Bloomberg wants to get rid off them. Its time for this “little” man to retired to his mansion in Bahamas.
]]>By: pdubhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858027
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 04:24:05 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858027It boggles the mind that, in a city in which we pay for two school chancellors because one of them is unqualified to serve, it is the unqualified one who makes the case about which teachers are qualified to teach based on criteria that have nothing to do with teaching qualifications. It’s called plutocracy in action.
]]>By: Jessehttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-858003
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 03:03:58 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-858003God save our children from Mayor Bloomberg and his puppets.
]]>By: uncle samhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-857989
Wed, 26 Jan 2011 02:20:27 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/a-new-face-in-an-old-fight/#comment-857989This time, Mr. Mulgrew said, “The mayor doesn’t want to work with anyone except for his millionaire friends.”

This is sooooo true. Someone must stop this dangerous little man Bloomberg!