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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by Welknair

I agree very much here. There's something I talk about, called the "Hello World" test. It's usually applied to various coding languages and is the measure of how long it takes someone to learn how to make a simple program that outputs "Hello World!" once. If you need to read through entire manuals which are hundreds of pages long to do such a simple function, it fails the test. Similarly, I believe that people picking up a game for the first time should be able to dive right into it, without having to first read and reread the entire darn thing. Deathwatch, I'm looking at you.

I haven't seen Deathwatch myself, but I am well acquainted with the Hello World! test. One of the things I am most looking forward to is your Progressive Start idea - normally our games start with me moving from player to player for a few hours, helping them fill out their character sheets... a change from that will be nice.

That reminds me! Why do games so often have their mechanics bound up in fluff, like you said? Even the core mechanics, often. These things should be in a clear, concise format for easy learning. I have the majority of my game written on sheets of notebook paper at this point, and the main mechanics occupy less than two such pages. Why should i need to read a hundred pages to learn what I could have in two? Of course content, context, and examples are important. But still, I think that game makers could afford to be a little more clear with the way things work.

Honestly, I personally think it's because the designers are trying to not bore the players with raw information. Sure, it's handy when it's boiled down and concise, but some people can't absorb formulas unless they're expanded a bit and easier to read. The problem is striking a balance so that you don't alienate either side of the spectrum, which a lot of books seem to do. Before throwing out my Exalted manual, I had handwritten notes below some of the lengthier abilities marked as TL;DR, followed by the numerical effect...

With the group you've collected on here, I highly doubt the rules will need to be diluted for their enjoyment, but it might be something to consider later on. If you do decide to do so, I have one request: either a DM Screen printout or a glossary for quick reference.

Amazing Abjuration Avatar made by Serpentine.

Originally Posted by Gramarie IRC

<Fako> Most of my contributions to the system have been in the form of taking a baseball bat to other homebrewer's works.
<~sirpercival> haha
<Fako> You laugh because it's true :P
<~sirpercival> yes. yes i do.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Deathwatch is the TT RPG of Warhammer 40k. It is complicated. I don't have too much experience with it, so I'm no expert, but I'd say that it is among the more complicated of games I've seen.

If you've taken a look at my Essays post (Link can be found in my extended signature, but I haven't updated it in ages), you know how many games I've looked at. I've become exceedingly adept at picking up a new game and flipping through to find the important bits. Deathwatch was one of the few instances where my first attempt at this fell short. I'm sure I could get it if I spent the time, but it just didn't appeal to me too much.

I agree about the balance between mechanics and fluff. You don't want it to be too dry, but at the same time you need to actually have the crunch in there. I think that a glossary or "Rules Reference" section would be a very good idea. And I'd looove it if I could get to the point of offering GM screens for sale that has said references.

For the record, GMs in my game are called "Muses", though I make sure to note that "Muse" is just a fancy name for GM, specifc to Fourthland. And the recommended party size is... Wait for it... Four. Though given the relatively easy mechanics, I'd imagine having groups closer to 6 players should still operate pretty well. But 4 is a safe minimum.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

While I understand that you're probably referencing the mystical ideas of a "muse", I'll personally use it under the pretense that the job of the Muse is to aMuse the group...

Amazing Abjuration Avatar made by Serpentine.

Originally Posted by Gramarie IRC

<Fako> Most of my contributions to the system have been in the form of taking a baseball bat to other homebrewer's works.
<~sirpercival> haha
<Fako> You laugh because it's true :P
<~sirpercival> yes. yes i do.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

...actually, no, I was specifically referencing an English word that is to my knowledge so unique in gaming systems that it could be considered as part of what will becoming the established product identity for FourthLand. I have no special knowledge that it will be. It could simply become, "only a term." That's fine if so. But...I'm the cautious type.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by Story Time

...actually, no, I was specifically referencing an English word that is to my knowledge so unique in gaming systems that it could be considered as part of what will becoming the established product identity for FourthLand. I have no special knowledge that it will be. It could simply become, "only a term." That's fine if so. But...I'm the cautious type.

Welknair is a very generous and perhaps unassuming person.

That he is. I was actually referencing Welknair's post, but I admit, mine was rather ambiguous. Personally, I like the idea of calling the person running the show a "Muse" as opposed to a Game/Dungeon Master or Story Teller, which are the common ones... seems more organic, and it has four letters to help it fit in with the game's theme. As far as how "important" the term shall be to the identity of the game... only one man knows.

Amazing Abjuration Avatar made by Serpentine.

Originally Posted by Gramarie IRC

<Fako> Most of my contributions to the system have been in the form of taking a baseball bat to other homebrewer's works.
<~sirpercival> haha
<Fako> You laugh because it's true :P
<~sirpercival> yes. yes i do.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

My impression is that it is a general enough word (Greek mythology) that I wouldn't be able to register it even if I wanted to. Though I honestly hadn't thought of the possibility of people trying to take the term.. I'll make sure to be a bit more cautious in the future.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by Welknair

Additionally, I am very much aware of the importance of those first few pages. The intro is extremely important in grabbing the attentions of would-be players and GMs. I'm doing my best to make the intro as engaging and up-front as possible.

That reminds me! Why do games so often have their mechanics bound up in fluff, like you said? Even the core mechanics, often. These things should be in a clear, concise format for easy learning. I have the majority of my game written on sheets of notebook paper at this point, and the main mechanics occupy less than two such pages. Why should i need to read a hundred pages to learn what I could have in two? Of course content, context, and examples are important. But still, I think that game makers could afford to be a little more clear with the way things work.

Honestly, this world is pretty much built for power gamers. That guy who wants to see just how far he can push the rules. The one who decided to build the lightning mace build, or see if he could break 40,000 HP damage in a single turn. It's for the abstractors, the attempters, the people who really ask, "Why do we have gravity this way, anyway? Who cares about Einstein!"

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by SamBurke

Honestly, this world is pretty much built for power gamers. That guy who wants to see just how far he can push the rules. The one who decided to build the lightning mace build, or see if he could break 40,000 HP damage in a single turn. It's for the abstractors, the attempters, the people who really ask, "Why do we have gravity this way, anyway? Who cares about Einstein!"

I have no idea how that helps, though.

Derp.

Yeah.. My target audience is pretty much you guys, my crazy-player, and about anyone that makes game-exploiting redstone contraptions on Minecraft. I have long since realized, and embraced this fact. The way it's set up, though, said game-breaking tends to be a TEAM ACTIVITY instead of a solo thing. So yeah, you can break the world. But at least the players are doing it together!

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

This of course makes me wonder what would happen were non-powergamers to play this system, people with little to no tabletop experience. Heck, they'd probably come up with things the powergamers wouldn't think of, simply from a different perspective.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by radmelon

This of course makes me wonder what would happen were non-powergamers to play this system, people with little to no tabletop experience. Heck, they'd probably come up with things the powergamers wouldn't think of, simply from a different perspective.

That IS a very good question.

Given how entirely peculiar this game is, I think it'll be veeeery interesting to see how different people react to it. It says something about you if the first thing you do in a new and pristine world of wonder is... Make a doomsday-machine. *Coughcough* I have a couple of friends that are willing to test that have far less experience in the genre, and are a little less maniacal. I'm curious to see how that goes.

Now I'm wondering how would approach this world if I were a player... *Ponderponder* That'd make a great doomday machine...

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by Welknair

That IS a very good question.

Given how entirely peculiar this game is, I think it'll be veeeery interesting to see how different people react to it. It says something about you if the first thing you do in a new and pristine world of wonder is... Make a doomsday-machine. *Coughcough* I have a couple of friends that are willing to test that have far less experience in the genre, and are a little less maniacal. I'm curious to see how that goes.

Now I'm wondering how would approach this world if I were a player... *Ponderponder* That'd make a great doomday machine...

I think the problem will be counter-responses.

Because every yin has a yang. Someone will always have a disable-inator sitting around, waiting to restructure any device.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Because every yin has a yang. Someone will always have a disable-inator sitting around, waiting to restructure any device.

WHICH does sound pretty handy.

That's another interesting point... How would one defend against these various abuses? What kind of weird protections could you come up with to prevent people rocketing through no-gravity zones at you? The defenses and responses will likely be just as outlandish as the original methods. If not moreso.

Originally Posted by Centric

We can only begin to imagine what someone's RPG career would be like whose experience in them began with mastery of Fourthland.

What kind of thinkers could a school system turn out if Social Studies were replaced with Fourthland Hall/Hour?

This would be horrifying and glorious. And welcome! It's always to see a new follower of the thread!

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Innertia-less fields, of course. Most people don't bother keeping their hands on the propulsion controls, and an area of space where that glide just stops... They wouldn't get whiplash, but we would need some way to get rid of the extra energy... I suggest transmuting it into heat.

In other words, they rocket at you and incinerate themselves. Alternatively, a thin film of reversed inertia would cause them to crash into themselves, which would hurt. A lot.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by Amechra

Innertia-less fields, of course. Most people don't bother keeping their hands on the propulsion controls, and an area of space where that glide just stops... They wouldn't get whiplash, but we would need some way to get rid of the extra energy... I suggest transmuting it into heat.

In other words, they rocket at you and incinerate themselves. Alternatively, a thin film of reversed inertia would cause them to crash into themselves, which would hurt. A lot.

Confetti infused with "sharpness". They fly right in and get torn to shreds.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by Amechra

Innertia-less fields, of course. Most people don't bother keeping their hands on the propulsion controls, and an area of space where that glide just stops... They wouldn't get whiplash, but we would need some way to get rid of the extra energy... I suggest transmuting it into heat.

In other words, they rocket at you and incinerate themselves. Alternatively, a thin film of reversed inertia would cause them to crash into themselves, which would hurt. A lot.

A layer of anti-inertia.. Wouldn't that be entirely unpassable? If you're lucky and only moving slowly, you'll get gently bounced away. *Makes mental note to include an Alchemy to produce anti-inertial fields*

...

*And portals*

Originally Posted by jojolagger

Confetti infused with "sharpness". They fly right in and get torn to shreds.

I'm considering another crazy addition, but I'm hesitant. Namely, I'm afraid this is too wacky even for MY standards: A fourth spacial dimension. Every time I've brought the idea up with one of my friends, they tell me the same thing, "Time is the fourth dimension". That's why I specificied SPACIAL dimension!

I've just finished wrapping my head fully around the idea myself. I'm pretty sure you guys would take to it as easy as you have everything else, but I fear it may be a bit too much for the vast population less insane than us.

Secure structures become a little more complicated, due to them now being four-dimensional. If you build a structure only in the first three, someone could go forwards on the fourth plane, move in the three dimensions to where the interior of the structure is, then move backwards through the fourth plane into the structure on its native plane. To protect against this, you'd need to recreate the structure on adjacent planes, but without doors or such. Unless you wanted them, that is. It also means just as we can have buildings with small floor dimensions but can still be quite large by being tall, in the same way we could have what appears to be a shack, but is in fact a massive four-dimensional longhouse.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by Welknair

I'm considering another crazy addition, but I'm hesitant. Namely, I'm afraid this is too wacky even for MY standards: A fourth spacial dimension. Every time I've brought the idea up with one of my friends, they tell me the same thing, "Time is the fourth dimension". That's why I specificied SPACIAL dimension!

I've just finished wrapping my head fully around the idea myself. I'm pretty sure you guys would take to it as easy as you have everything else, but I fear it may be a bit too much for the vast population less insane than us.

Secure structures become a little more complicated, due to them now being four-dimensional. If you build a structure only in the first three, someone could go forwards on the fourth plane, move in the three dimensions to where the interior of the structure is, then move backwards through the fourth plane into the structure on its native plane. To protect against this, you'd need to recreate the structure on adjacent planes, but without doors or such. Unless you wanted them, that is. It also means just as we can have buildings with small floor dimensions but can still be quite large by being tall, in the same way we could have what appears to be a shack, but is in fact a massive four-dimensional longhouse.

...Thoughts?

I actually did some work on a D&D character that did something similar using bent extradimensional spaces. Mapping it is hell. Honestly, mapping building with multiple floors is bad due to needing a 2D map for each floor, but this means you need a separate building map for each 4th dimensional unit.

I'm sure it would be interesting, and we could handle it, but it might cause some problems for less expert players.

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Originally Posted by jojolagger

I actually did some work on a D&D character that did something similar using bent extradimensional spaces. Mapping it is hell. Honestly, mapping building with multiple floors is bad due to needing a 2D map for each floor, but this means you need a separate building map for each 4th dimensional unit.

I'm sure it would be interesting, and we could handle it, but it might cause some problems for less expert players.

My thoughts exactly. It's worth noting that players would only be able to move through one space on the fourth dimension at a time, and doing so takes considerable resources, so we wouldn't constantly be dealing with four-dimensional hijinks. It would likely still be very difficult to adjudicate. For the sake of simplicity and resources, many structures would only exist on one fourth-dimension-coordinate, allowing the potential of four dimensional theft. Which frankly, I find very cool. Secure castles and walls would be among the only plalces where they'd go the extra mile to secure it on multiple dimensions.

Any GM making a four-dimensional labyrinth deserves whatever comes of that. *Shudder*

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

Portals...

YES!! However, assuming you will keep dimensions the same, for the sake of players being able to visually comprehend the game, what are you going to do about the portal paradoxes? What happens when you drop a portal into another? What happens when you place an object in-between two portals and close them around it? What happens if you put an iron rod in a portal so that both sides of it are touching, then solder it together and move one of the portals? You need a rule of Paradox, not only for spacial mind puzzles, but also through time.

And Finally, a theory of Gravity that I came up with (Not written by me, obviously, I don't have enough education on these topics to write such an amazing article, but I had the idea before this was posted. All credit goes to the author):http://www.sciencefile.org/system/ho...y-of-spacetime

Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land

I've spent a lot of time figuring out what the Fourth Dimension would look like, or, at least, getting my mind wrapped around the idea.

Thing is, it'll be really, really complicated. Sure, it's pretty cool, and will fit well with the thoughts behind the game.

Perhaps it can be an optional plugin? Used by a villain? Extremely rare?

I realize how complicated the concept is: If it takes people like us this amount of time to grasp it, it'll be nigh-on impossible for "Normal" people to fully understand it. Because of this, I've decided a few things: I will likely include it in the game, but in a little appendix at the back, possibly with other crazy-butt ideas that are too complicated to include in the main portion. These will be optional elements, for groups that are entirely insane and seeking even more brain-bending weirdness. More narrowly, on the topic of four-dimensional space, movement through the fourth dimension will be exceedingly difficult and resource-consuming, such that it isn't a daily occurence. I may further increase this difficulty, and limit the fourth dimension to a particular number of layers (Given that space is discrete in my game anyways). This could help minimize confusion while still having the option open.