wow, i just learn multiple new things.Amy is played by the same person as Blossom( I knew I recognized her!, I used to watch that)Mayim has a PhD in real lifeMayim is pokesperson for the Holistic Moms Network (i was already well aware of the org)Mayim is anti-vax & a home birth promoterand that she is vegan

damn I was out of the loop, considering I love love love the big bang theory (I even have the Big Bang board game at home) i cant believe I didnt know any of that

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

Finally, I really don't like the assumption that has crept into the vaccination argument that people have a duty to create some sort of herd immunity on behalf of other people. I think it sets a bad precedent in general to say that I'm obligated to put something in my body in order to protect someone else's health.

<-This

As for the analogy that followed in response re HIV and informed consent it was a completely flawed analogy. I am not obligated to put something in my body to keep other people safe. That has nothing to do with informed consent re sexual contact, which I think is important. There is a huge difference between sexual contact and walking around in public spaces breathing the same air. Walking around in public spaces is something I have every right to do, if I get vaccinations or not.

It's interesting that people argued so strongly when I said that vaccinations have limited effectiveness, and then people argue that I should get vaccinated for the sake of others who the vaccine may not have worked for. Double think much? Is it effective or not? Yes very. Well, for some people sometimes?? I'm not convinced. As for the arguement of people not being able to afford vaccinations so presumably if I'm healthy and can afford them I should get them to benefit those people that does not apply here... vaccines are covered where I live. I will do more research. I do believe I have access to medical journals at the library. If I do decide to continue to refuse vaccinations that is my right. It is my body. This topic is already hot enough but I can't help but think of a comparison between this and abortion rights. I suspect many people who want everyone vaccinated also believe in abortion rights. The right to make choices for ones own body is sacred people. I'm so done with this thread. I will do my further research in journals.

The comments you refer to were made nearly a year ago and have been thoroughly addressed already. I don't think anyone has challenged your right to walk around in public spaces or not get vaccinated.

The comparison to abortion rights is absurd because having an abortion doesn't carry a risk of killing people. Refusing to get vaccinated has a very real potential for other people to become fatally ill or permanently disabled. I would suggest that you read what fezza experiences because of getting chicken pox.

If you don't want to participate in this thread anymore, then don't! There's no need to be dramatic about it.

_________________"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

I do think it's important to point out that choice works both ways; if you believe it is your choice to not vaccinate, you also need to allow daycares and schools the choice to require children to be vaccinated if they're going to be a part of said school/daycare. Likewise, parents can make the choice to not let their children play with others who haven't been vaccinated.

In practice though, most states have a religious exemption, so if you say your religion forbids you to get vaccinated, you can get your kid into daycare without vaccinating them (A Waldorf school in Seattle has a 47% exemption rate). It can be really difficult, but in practice, children that are immuno-compromised often can't go to daycare. And again, practically, its pretty hard to keep your kids from playing with others that haven't been vaccinated.

At the end of the day, we made the choice to vaccinate our child because doing the research (from real scientists not people like Dr Young), the risk to Leela from a vaccine is minimal, and the harm if she happened to be exposed to polio or measles or even chickenpox far outweighs that risk. And I respect any other parent's right to make a different choice for their child. I do feel a bit sad for the very small number of children who have died from preventable illnesses (like Hib) because their parents refused to get them vaccinated, but I still respect the parenting choice.

For me there isn't a tone of self-righteousness to this discussion, but there is a feeling of frustration from interactions with people who are anti-vax and act as though you must be stupid not to believe them that there is some giant med/pharma conspiracy to cover up some terrible damages done to our children by vaccines, and yet don't have any real evidence (from credible sources) for their claims. Its really hard to have a rational discussion with someone coming from fear and rumors rather than logic and science.

I would love to see real data or any scientific evidence for any of the anti-vax group's claims from credible sources. I am not looking to be right, I am looking to make the best decision for my kid. If someone could show me that there is a real danger from the vaccines, that outweighs the danger of the disease, I would be right along with you declining it for my kid.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

I don't think that it's responsible to avoid discussions of the real harm that a decision based upon fear and misinformation could cause to other people including the elderly and infants too young to be immunized.

Measles kills 382 people every day, most of them under the age of 5. Vaccination is the only way to prevent measles and the measles vaccine, according to WHO, costs about 22¢ per dose. 47% of those deaths occur in India which has a 74% vaccination rate.

Unlike most of the anti-vax information, the damage these diseases do is real.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

"Anti-vax" and "home birth promoter" are not comparable points. Not vaccinating your kids is not an evidence-based decision, and I agree that it's harmful. Home birth, however, is safe for low-risk women and their babies. Since it's unethical and wouldn't be possible to do a blinded RCT studying place of birth, the data is not perfect, but there is a strong body of evidence that shows that PLANNED home births (as opposed to precipitous births or "I didn't now I was pregnant" situations) with a trained midwife have the same outcomes as hospital births for similarly low-risk mothers and babies. I don't know where you got the graph you put here earlier, but the data probably came from the 2010 Wax study, which was seriously flawed. Even MDs can publish horrible research. It was a meta-analysis that included data on home births that were not planned and not attended by skilled providers (even though he used the phrase "planned home births" in the title of the study, you have to actually read complete articles and not just their titles). Here is more information on the flaws of the Wax study if you're interested:

It was originally published in ACOG's journal, and there were later articles published in Nature and the Lancet questioning the conclusion of the Wax study. Despite all of the criticism, ACOG's official position statement on home birth still cites the Wax study by claiming that neonatal death rates are 2-3 times higher with home births.

Anyway, my point is that people who choose home birth are not necessarily the same crowd as those who don't vaccinate their kids, so please don't throw around that comparison.

I had a home birth and have followed the standard vax schedule so far (with no plans to deviate from it), but several of the people on my birth assistant group's email list were looking for pediatricians willing to take unvaccinated children and the general attitude seemed to be one of dismay that pediatricians would not take unvaccinated children on as patients. One set of behavior does not imply the other, but I think there is a fair amount of overlap.

Tofulish wrote:

Yes, but they're (for the most part) not babies in the US, so the impact of their deaths is easier to disregard and the threat is less significant for babies in the US.

I think this (and the general discussion of polio in India, I don't mean to single you out here) is kind of unfair. I've vaccinated Vi (I think against polio - I'd have to check the records) but it isn't out of regard for the children of India, because she's not in India, she's in southeastern Connecticut. Realistically, bugging my Congresspeople to support aid programs bringing vaccines to developing countries would probably do a whole lot more to help prevent infant mortality than my daughter's following the CDC vax schedule has. Similarly, I don't intend to vaccinate her against yellow fever at the moment, but that doesn't mean I easily disregard the deaths of children in Africa..

Though, of course, modern global travel does pose new problems. That's a tricky one to tackle, and certainly to balance human rights and public health. I do not envy people with that job.

Finally, I know it's a sort of heresy here to say this, but I have yet to read anything that has convinced me that the recent resurgence of eg measles or pertussis has been caused by philosophically anti-vax people deliberately not vaccinating children. It is strange to me that people insisting that the anti-vax crowd is ignoring science (and they often are, no argument there) have not provided any convincing scientific (or mathematical modeling) evidence that this is causing outbreaks in the US. We can and should argue against quacks spreading bad info, but I think it's way more important to address uneven healthcare access and poverty that, according to studies I think I posted way back when on this thread, are driving down vaccination rates.

I had a home birth and have followed the standard vax schedule so far (with no plans to deviate from it), but several of the people on my birth assistant group's email list were looking for pediatricians willing to take unvaccinated children and the general attitude seemed to be one of dismay that pediatricians would not take unvaccinated children on as patients. One set of behavior does not imply the other, but I think there is a fair amount of overlap.

Ok, but as someone who I assume chose a home birth because you found that the research shows it was safe for you, don't you take issue with being lumped together? I'm looking for a pediatric practice for my baby right now and one actually declined to take us because we're having a home birth. They never asked about our plans for vaccinating but I got the impression they were assuming we were "those people." I basically see the pediatrician as just a place to pop in and get shots, so it's not like I'm being picky here. The only question I really have for them is how they feel about home birth, because I'm paranoid that we'll show up with our baby and they'll call social services because our baby wasn't born at a hospital. I realize that's pretty paranoid, but you never know.

It does suck that all home birthers are painted as being a part of the anti-vax scene (I got that a lot when we transferred to the hospital from one particular nurse - thinking I was uneducated and against everything that the hospital stood for). Yeah, I get grumpy when the two issues are lumped together so often - but there is a big overlap between the two that is undeniable. I love our midwives, but they are vehemently against vaccinations. Sure, it bugs me a lot, but I'm really not using them for parenting advice. Their forte is with birth. A lot of their clients are also anti-vax, but they came to that conclusion on their own.I can see how someone could make the connection very easily that if you birth at home, you must think that everyone in hospitals and pharmacies are crooks. (you could also go further with home/unschooling.) But it's simply not true as a blanket statement, and all you can do is show by example. Hopefully with your actions, you can change that doctor's thoughts on the matter (though if they're just straight denying you just because you birthed at home, I don't think I'd want to work with that doctor...)I just wouldn't bring up the homebirth thing with future offices.

I had a home birth and have followed the standard vax schedule so far (with no plans to deviate from it), but several of the people on my birth assistant group's email list were looking for pediatricians willing to take unvaccinated children and the general attitude seemed to be one of dismay that pediatricians would not take unvaccinated children on as patients. One set of behavior does not imply the other, but I think there is a fair amount of overlap.

Ok, but as someone who I assume chose a home birth because you found that the research shows it was safe for you, don't you take issue with being lumped together? I'm looking for a pediatric practice for my baby right now and one actually declined to take us because we're having a home birth. They never asked about our plans for vaccinating but I got the impression they were assuming we were "those people." I basically see the pediatrician as just a place to pop in and get shots, so it's not like I'm being picky here. The only question I really have for them is how they feel about home birth, because I'm paranoid that we'll show up with our baby and they'll call social services because our baby wasn't born at a hospital. I realize that's pretty paranoid, but you never know.

Heh I actually have a friend who did have social services called on her because she gave birth at home, but fortunately social services basically laughed at the hospital.

After my own experiences with pediatricians I would be more careful in the future about selecting one (which I need to do again soon anyway)...but I don't think anti-vax people had anything to do with it. The military hospital does not believe in informed consent much so we would have invariably butted heads over something, and in the end we chose a ped who had been a patient of my midwifery practice and had home birth(s) herself. (oddly enough, the two LCs at the military hospital, the two really helpful people we encountered during the whole jaundice debacle, had also been clients of my midwifery practice. It speaks volumes to me whenever I talk to people who work in traditional hospitals in OB-care related fields who then choose a different option for themselves, though I don't mean to turn this into a home hospital birth debate)

But despite having good AND bad experiences I don't think I was ever lumped in with people who avoided vaccinating. We never brought up alternative vax schedules and neither did our pediatricians.

Yes, but they're (for the most part) not babies in the US, so the impact of their deaths is easier to disregard and the threat is less significant for babies in the US.

I think this (and the general discussion of polio in India, I don't mean to single you out here) is kind of unfair. I've vaccinated Vi (I think against polio - I'd have to check the records) but it isn't out of regard for the children of India, because she's not in India, she's in southeastern Connecticut. Realistically, bugging my Congresspeople to support aid programs bringing vaccines to developing countries would probably do a whole lot more to help prevent infant mortality than my daughter's following the CDC vax schedule has. Similarly, I don't intend to vaccinate her against yellow fever at the moment, but that doesn't mean I easily disregard the deaths of children in Africa..

I don't think Tofulish meant that we, in the United States, should be more conscientious to vaccinate in order to lessen epidemics in India. How I read the above was this: in the US, many people against vaccines use an argument like "well, if I do get the flu, it won't kill me (so it's not that bad)." This argument comes from a place of feeling safe, because we haven't seen a polio epidemic in this country for about fifty years, and because we have isolated outbreaks of measles/other diseases, and because outbreaks that do reach epidemic status in this country tend to be controlled before they spread beyond a city or two. We don't regularly see epidemics that span the country (I think swine flu is the only disease in recent history that was labelled epidemic on a national scale?). People in this country forget that things like flu can kill and used to do so in sweeping numbers--they forget this because they don't see death on a large scale. Bringing up the point that "x number of babies die in these countries" is really just to remind ourselves that there is tangible proof these diseases kill, and that the longstanding presence of vaccines in the US has allowed us to forget the potential death tolls. Tofulish's point was that many people who argue that "such and such won't kill me" can do so, because they're coming from a place of safety, where vaccines are pretty widespread, and they don't think beyond their bubbles.

annak wrote:

Finally, I know it's a sort of heresy here to say this, but I have yet to read anything that has convinced me that the recent resurgence of eg measles or pertussis has been caused by philosophically anti-vax people deliberately not vaccinating children. It is strange to me that people insisting that the anti-vax crowd is ignoring science (and they often are, no argument there) have not provided any convincing scientific (or mathematical modeling) evidence that this is causing outbreaks in the US. We can and should argue against quacks spreading bad info, but I think it's way more important to address uneven healthcare access and poverty that, according to studies I think I posted way back when on this thread, are driving down vaccination rates.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread is arguing that the anti-vax crowd is the cause of reemerging epidemics--but it would be pretty unlikely that vaccinated people would contract a disease severely enough to spread it into an epidemic. The source of the epidemic doesn't have to be someone who's against vaccines, but those who are against need reminding that vaccinations protect individuals once an epidemic has started.

_________________"So often I wish Adam were a real boy." - interrobang?!"If he was you'd hear him farting at the back of your yoga class." - 8ball

I wasn't really trying to say they were, I was saying that she is A AND B, separated with "and". But in general there is a good deal of overlap between the communities. I also dont think the level of risk is the same.

In this case they are connected however. The Holistic Moms Network did not arrive at their position on homebirth and vaccination from two different lines of reasoning, rather they are both a result of their "holistic" ideology. I fully recognize that the two issues are separate and not depended on one another, but there are others for who the two issues are central to their ideology.

Quote:

Not vaccinating your kids is not an evidence-based decision, and I agree that it's harmful. Home birth, however, is safe for low-risk women and their babies. Since it's unethical and wouldn't be possible to do a blinded RCT studying place of birth, the data is not perfect, but there is a strong body of evidence that shows that PLANNED home births (as opposed to precipitous births or "I didn't now I was pregnant" situations) with a trained midwife have the same outcomes as hospital births for similarly low-risk mothers and babies.

unfortunately many in the home birth moment I speak of dont limit their advocacy to low-risk pregnancies and often rely on fearmongering and distortions designed to scare people away from hospital births (along with many forms of modern medicine). The continued promotion of lay midwives among some orgs and activists is also troubling.Im not against homebirth in all circumstances, but I do find much of the advocacy coming from the homebirth movement in the US to be objectionable.

Quote:

I don't know where you got the graph you put here earlier, but the data probably came from the 2010 Wax study, which was seriously flawed...

Anyway, my point is that people who choose home birth are not necessarily the same crowd as those who don't vaccinate their kids, so please don't throw around that comparison.

again i wasnt comparing the two, I was stating that Bialik holds both ideologies (and im this case it is for a seemingly connected reason)

Quote:

don't you take issue with being lumped together?

[/quote]

again not lumping together, but in this case Bialik does believe in both, the statement is accurate and was referring to Bialik herself not all homebirthers or all antivaxxers. Perhaps you should be more upset at Bialik and the Holistic Moms Network for promoting the issues as if they were connected

Yes, but they're (for the most part) not babies in the US, so the impact of their deaths is easier to disregard and the threat is less significant for babies in the US.

I think this (and the general discussion of polio in India, I don't mean to single you out here) is kind of unfair. I've vaccinated Vi (I think against polio - I'd have to check the records) but it isn't out of regard for the children of India, because she's not in India, she's in southeastern Connecticut. Realistically, bugging my Congresspeople to support aid programs bringing vaccines to developing countries would probably do a whole lot more to help prevent infant mortality than my daughter's following the CDC vax schedule has. Similarly, I don't intend to vaccinate her against yellow fever at the moment, but that doesn't mean I easily disregard the deaths of children in Africa.

I don't think Tofulish meant that we, in the United States, should be more conscientious to vaccinate in order to lessen epidemics in India. How I read the above was this: in the US, many people against vaccines use an argument like "well, if I do get the flu, it won't kill me (so it's not that bad)." This argument comes from a place of feeling safe, because we haven't seen a polio epidemic in this country for about fifty years, and because we have isolated outbreaks of measles/other diseases, and because outbreaks that do reach epidemic status in this country tend to be controlled before they spread beyond a city or two. We don't regularly see epidemics that span the country (I think swine flu is the only disease in recent history that was labelled epidemic on a national scale?). People in this country forget that things like flu can kill and used to do so in sweeping numbers--they forget this because they don't see death on a large scale. Bringing up the point that "x number of babies die in these countries" is really just to remind ourselves that there is tangible proof these diseases kill, and that the longstanding presence of vaccines in the US has allowed us to forget the potential death tolls. Tofulish's point was that many people who argue that "such and such won't kill me" can do so, because they're coming from a place of safety, where vaccines are pretty widespread.

Yes, exactly this (thanks tingles for putting it so well). I didn't mean "disregard" as a pejorative, but rather as Tinglepants says, that when doing a risk analysis, the number of deaths in Africa or India is going to be less relevant to a decision to vaccinate or not vaccinate than deaths in the surrounding community. So as a risk factor they are discounted or disregarded.

We all love and care about our kids, and no one wants to put any kid at risk for dying from a preventable disease. The anti-vaxers just believe that vaccines have bad things in them that put kids at risk for other ailments, and in doing their risk analysis find that those risks outweigh their kids' risk of getting an illness that they don't believe their child is likely to be at risk for in their communities.

And re the connection between choosing not to unvaccinate and epidemics. Yes, the pertussis outbreaks aren't due to anti-vaxers, its because we are discovering that the vaccine does not confer lifelong immunity. That said, there have been small outbreaks (like the Hib one in Minnesota in 2009) where 5 children that were not vaccinated ended up getting Hib and one child died. The parents of that child had made the conscious decision not to vaccinate and their child died from a preventable illness. And more recently, there have been measles outbreaks in this country caused by travelers from countries where measles is more prevalent spreading to unvaccinated children. In countries where the vaccine is widely used, outbreaks are quickly curtailed and don't become epidemics. That said, I completely agree with you that is important to address uneven healthcare access and poverty that drive down the vaccination rate. As I posted above, the cost of Leela's vaccines without insurance would be $200 to $300 a pop, and I definitely can see how that would pose a barrier to access.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Last edited by Tofulish on Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Are there areas that don't provide free vaccines? The county health department does for children. Flu shots are $20 for adults, but they have a sliding scale for that too. I got the TB test I needed for work free there.

Vaccines are also available free for all kids in the free lunch program in my county.

Not as convenient as just doing routine visit with a regular pediatrician, but access to vaccines doesn't seem a huge issue. I mean, students have to get them to enrol unless they have the exemption paperwork. Is this not typical?

_________________"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk

I found it interesting that the article states that the CDC is blaming the rise of pertussis cases more on declining protection in vaccinated people rather than vaccine refusal for babies. They just briefly mention it, so I'm off to try to dig something else up on that, but don't forget to get your adult vaccinations!We don't hear that reminder very often it seems (besides flu shots). I got my TDaP shot while we were in the NICU, and it was the first time I had ever heard of getting vaccinations as an adult. I really thought once you were 18 and headed off to college, you were done.

I found it interesting that the article states that the CDC is blaming the rise of pertussis cases more on declining protection in vaccinated people rather than vaccine refusal for babies. They just briefly mention it, so I'm off to try to dig something else up on that, but don't forget to get your adult vaccinations!We don't hear that reminder very often it seems (besides flu shots). I got my TDaP shot while we were in the NICU, and it was the first time I had ever heard of getting vaccinations as an adult. I really thought once you were 18 and headed off to college, you were done.

Pertussis is very dangerous for babies and less so for older children/adults. For my microbiology class, I did a small research project/presentation on pertussis. I remember reading that the leading cause of pertussis in babies is unvaccinated family members. Also, the vaccines have changed over the years as well as the recommendations. And with Pertussis, you really don't know you have it until you have most likely passed the "infect others" stage.

There are also other vaccinations you do get as an adult as I remember getting a few but really, the only reason I'm up on my adult vaccinations is because I've traveled outside of the US. If I hadn't looked into recommended vaccinations, I'm not sure I would've had boosters for my existing vaccinations as well as new vaccines per the countries I visited.

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Isn't pertussis bundled with tetanus? I think a lot of adults get boosters for tetanus when they get a cut or similar injury that sends them to the doctor.

Yeah, but I think that might be a newer development. I had a tetanus booster 5ish years ago just because I was overdue and my doc recommended it. Maybe two years later she said she knew I wasn't due for tetanus but it was now bundled with pertussis and she thought all adults who hadn't been boosted for pertussis should be getting it as a public health measure. Not entirely sure if it was just not bundled with tetanus the last time I'd gotten that, or if she just didn't think pertussis was an issue at that time so she ordered a tetanus-only booster. At any rate, in the pretty recent past, anyway, there were definitely adults getting tetanus shots that didn't include pertussis.

I got the TDAP booster during my second pregnancy... It wasn't offered to me during my first, but pertussis has been on the rise in our area in the intervening years so they've been pushing the booster harder.

Though of course this was a decade ago, when I was in school (in PA), we didn't get free vaccines as a part of being in the free lunch program.

Vaccines are not just about you not getting sick, they're about protecting the people who cannot get them.

Truth! When I was two, the measles vaccine gave me the measles, so my mom was advised to not give me any more vaccinations (and no doctor afterward ever objected to this), I had most of my shots by that point anyway. Whenever it was a year that I needed shots for school, I went and got blood tests that said I did not have whatever I was supposed to be vaccinated and gave those to the school nurse. It was no big deal because pretty much every one I knew had their shots. Today, I would have a bigger chance of getting sick as more people choose not to vaccinate at all.

I have had one flu shot in my entire life (we had to stand in a huge line out at the fair grounds for hours, apparently it was some big scare, big enough that my mom decided I needed that shot).

I'm not scared of vaccines in general, but for myself i'm a little weary. Brian gets flu shots from the VA, and I like that because it protects both of us since if i'm going to get the flu from someone, it'll probably be him. And he is indestructible.

_________________"The Tree is His Penis"

The tree is his penis // it's very exciting // when held up to his mouth // the lights are all lighting // his eyes start a-bulging // in unbridled glee // the tree is his penis // its beauty, effulgent -amandabear

Are you sure that you actually got measles from the vaccine, mrsbadmouth? I know that there have been rare cases of polio from the live polio vaccine (which is no longer in use in the US), but I didn't think that that there were any other documented cases of modern vaccines causing the disease they are meant to protect against. I've read that the MMR vaccine can cause a rash and fever that might look like measles though (listed here as one of the side effects: http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections ... sles.html#).

I have no idea, I was only two and have no memory of it. That's what my mom told me and like I said, doctors never blinked twice over it.

_________________"The Tree is His Penis"

The tree is his penis // it's very exciting // when held up to his mouth // the lights are all lighting // his eyes start a-bulging // in unbridled glee // the tree is his penis // its beauty, effulgent -amandabear

Yeah, only pointing it out because I'd hate for someone to read that and decide it was clear evidence that the mmr vaccine could cause measles. I apparently had a terrible reaction to the DTP vaccine, so the doctor recommended that only get the Td vaccine afterwards. So, yeah, I know first hand that there are special cases where doctors tell you to not vaccinate. Interestingly though, I've recently had doctors and nurses give me crepe about this. I guess they don't beleive me that I really had a bad reaction?

Oh no, i'm definitely not saying don't vaccinate. I'm saying DO vaccinate because some people honestly shouldn't have vaccines for a specific reason. I've never met anyone else who had a bad reaction to vaccines so clearly we are few and far between, the risk is very small.

_________________"The Tree is His Penis"

The tree is his penis // it's very exciting // when held up to his mouth // the lights are all lighting // his eyes start a-bulging // in unbridled glee // the tree is his penis // its beauty, effulgent -amandabear