Both are great cars.
I love the sound of the m3, I however could never justify the price of one for its performance.
The 335 suits my needs, its fast, handles, looks great and is part of a huge tuning "group"(almost every 335 I see on the road is an enthusiast and asks me about my mods, its fun to be part of this"club"), if I were to spend that much money, I would get a z06.

paragon[ par-uh-gon, -guh n ]
noun
1.*a model or pattern of excellence or of a particular excellence: a paragon of virtue.

Its won 5 years in a row judged by people way more important than you.

Since I've used the word in connection with both the car and the engine, I obviously agree with those people. And by the way, the definition I prefer is "n. A model of excellence or perfection of a kind; a peerless example"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giggs

Obviously no one cares about your 14 and 20 3,600 lb argument. Let it go

BMW cares, or they wouldn't be replacing it. Tell them to let it go.

I just love these guys who have their egos so wrapped up in what they drive that they can't stand it to be criticized in any way at all. Even the obvious weak point of fuel economy.

When I first got the 335i, I thought performance and handling were great. But as you get used to the car, you realize the shortcomings (handling mostly) and the potential (performance). That's where the modding started and things got ugly

Not going into full details, but let's say that $30k in mods later, I have a car which makes me not long for an M3 Did I expect to dump that much in the car when I got it? No way!! But both the mod bug and the tracking bug bit me badly! And to make a 335i perform and be reliable on a racetrack takes alot of work. But to some extent the same applies to the M3. And modding an M3 is even more expensive.

My verdict is that if you're looking into a complete sports car package from the factory, the M3 may be a better choice.
If you're not afraid to go down the slippery modding slope, the 335i has a LOT of potential while still maintaining it's advantages: way better mpg (gas prices in Europe are high and driving to the gas station weekly would piss me off), heaps of torque at low/mid rpm (great for daily driving), lower insurance and running costs.

When I first got the 335i, I thought performance and handling were great. But as you get used to the car, you realize the shortcomings (handling mostly) and the potential (performance). That's where the modding started and things got ugly

Not going into full details, but let's say that $30k in mods later, I have a car which makes me not long for an M3 Did I expect to dump that much in the car when I got it? No way!! But both the mod bug and the tracking bug bit me badly! And to make a 335i perform and be reliable on a racetrack takes alot of work. But to some extent the same applies to the M3. And modding an M3 is even more expensive.

My verdict is that if you're looking into a complete sports car package from the factory, the M3 may be a better choice.
If you're not afraid to go down the slippery modding slope, the 335i has a LOT of potential while still maintaining it's advantages: way better mpg (gas prices in Europe are high and driving to the gas station weekly would piss me off), heaps of torque at low/mid rpm (great for daily driving), lower insurance and running costs.

I agree that it would cost a lot more money to make a 335 competent on the track and reliability is always going to be on the back of your mind with the high pressure fuel pump even though they seem to have much less reliability issues running on the gas you have over there. The M3 is track ready out of the box other than perhaps getting better brake pads so absolutely no additional expense is required. I see that you've slapped M3 suspension parts and a limited slip diff on your 335 but that still won't give you the versatility of EDC and the performance oriented MDM not to mention the M-DCT. In the end, pouring that 30k into your 335i would probably not get you around the Nurburgring faster than my time of 8:07 in light traffic on a tourist day with a completely stock M3. The lower running cost and insurance does not apply here.

In conclusion, if you are going to take the car to the track, get a M3 period. I'm glad you made your 335i work for you but if you could do it all over again knowing how much money you would eventually pour into it, would you have reconsidered getting a M3 instead? I'm a 335i to M3 convert and I would have gone with the M3 from the beginning knowing what I know now.

I agree that it would cost a lot more money to make a 335 competent on the track and reliability is always going to be on the back of your mind with the high pressure fuel pump even though they seem to have much less reliability issues running on the gas you have over there. The M3 is track ready out of the box other than perhaps getting better brake pads so absolutely no additional expense is required. I see that you've slapped M3 suspension parts and a limited slip diff on your 335 but that still won't give you the versatility of EDC and the performance oriented MDM not to mention the M-DCT. In the end, pouring that 30k into your 335i would probably not get you around the Nurburgring faster than my time of 8:07 in light traffic on a tourist day with a completely stock M3. The lower running cost and insurance does not apply here.

In conclusion, if you are going to take the car to the track, get a M3 period. I'm glad you made your 335i work for you but if you could do it all over again knowing how much money you would eventually pour into it, would you have reconsidered getting a M3 instead? I'm a 335i to M3 convert and I would have gone with the M3 from the beginning knowing what I know now.

Well I'll head to the Ring this Sunday if the weather is ok, but the nut behind the steering wheel needs alot more laps before I could touch that time On a sidenote I'm not too fund of driving that fast in Touristenfahrten. I'd keep that to private trackdays for safety reasons. Overtaking on the Ring with unepxerienced drivers around can get scary.

As for the cars, if I were to do it all over again, I would probably have gotten a dedicated trackcar

It may sound silly, but the high fuel consumption is what kept me from getting the M3 in the first place. Although the extra fuel expenses aren't in fact that much compared to what I finally put in the car, it's merely the fact that you'll be at the gas station weekly, if not twice a week; then seeing all that fuel money go out of the pocket (psychologically much worse than spending a few grand at one time for a nice mod ).

It's through though that the combined expenses of the M3 suspension parts, LSD, the extra cooling stuff... would have gotten me a nice supercharger for the M3

And that is all that matters. Have fun at the Ring, you can't imagine how jealous I am. The closest thing I have here is Virginia International Raceway and it is a joke compared to The Green Hell!!!! Probably just offended some VIR folks but that is my honest opinion. I vow to get stationed in Germany again some day and the M3 and I will terrorize and cause mayhem on the Ring again!!!

Well I'll head to the Ring this Sunday if the weather is ok, but the nut behind the steering wheel needs alot more laps before I could touch that time On a sidenote I'm not too fund of driving that fast in Touristenfahrten. I'd keep that to private trackdays for safety reasons. Overtaking on the Ring with unepxerienced drivers around can get scary.

Oh and if you want to avoid tourists, go on a weekday. At least back when I was there, they usually opened the track after 5pm for a few hours each day in the summer time. The only problem sometimes is that they would be doing repairs to the track and so you have a speed limit on parts of it. Man, if I lived in Luxemborg, I would be there every weekend! The wife might have issues with that though....

Oh and if you want to avoid tourists, go on a weekday. At least back when I was there, they usually opened the track after 5pm for a few hours each day in the summer time. The only problem sometimes is that they would be doing repairs to the track and so you have a speed limit on parts of it. Man, if I lived in Luxemborg, I would be there every weekend! The wife might have issues with that though....

Hehe I'm lucky that the GF is eager to race around the Ring as a passenger

Let's hope it stays that way after a few laps on sunday Will be our first time there together. I've covered a few lap last year but the Ring is still intimidating as hell!

Since I've used the word in connection with both the car and the engine, I obviously agree with those people. And by the way, the definition I prefer is "n. A model of excellence or perfection of a kind; a peerless example"

BMW cares, or they wouldn't be replacing it. Tell them to let it go.
I just love these guys who have their egos so wrapped up in what they drive that they can't stand it to be criticized in any way at all. Even the obvious weak point of fuel economy.

Bruce

PS - Now you can go look up the word "peerless".

I wonder why they replace the V8 for a 6cyl since, like you said earlier, they could've easily made that engine more fuel efficient by working a bit more on it instead of dropping the ball like you said they did!

When I first got the 335i, I thought performance and handling were great. But as you get used to the car, you realize the shortcomings (handling mostly) and the potential (performance). That's where the modding started and things got ugly

Not going into full details, but let's say that $30k in mods later, I have a car which makes me not long for an M3 Did I expect to dump that much in the car when I got it? No way!! But both the mod bug and the tracking bug bit me badly! And to make a 335i perform and be reliable on a racetrack takes alot of work. But to some extent the same applies to the M3. And modding an M3 is even more expensive.

My verdict is that if you're looking into a complete sports car package from the factory, the M3 may be a better choice. If you're not afraid to go down the slippery modding slope, the 335i has a LOT of potential while still maintaining it's advantages: way better mpg (gas prices in Europe are high and driving to the gas station weekly would piss me off), heaps of torque at low/mid rpm (great for daily driving), lower insurance and running costs.

Who would take that slippery slope knowing a catless/tuned M3 would be as fast but cheaper to buy and to maintain then a highly modified 335?! Also the M3 would have a far better resale value, more fun factor, more factor, more confort and a LOT more reliability! All that for a bit of savings on gaz and more torque a low RPMs, not worth it at all.

I drive my stock M3 daily and in normal driving I really don't need more torque and when I do a spirited drive, I'm not missing torque needer cause I got 8400RPM, what I would like is an other 50hp, something I could get for 1500$ with just test pipes and a tune. I would'nt trade my EDC for anything in the world, that's what makes the M3 the best all-around car! IMO the feeling of the M3 when you drive it is exepcionnal and that's its greatest quality, that's what kepted the M3 on top of its competitors(RS4/RS5,C63,IS-F) for so long and that's something you don't get when you buy a 335 no mater how much money you put in it! Just my opinion!

If you're an enthusiast, the M3 is the car you want. If priorities are fuel efficiency and torque, the 335i has it beat. Stock for stock, the M3 will put a bigger smile on your face...Well, it has for me and I've moved through the 3series ranks. I wouldn't mind more torque and better fuel economy but as soon as I get behind the wheel, somehow all that noise becomes a moot point.

I wonder why they replace the V8 for a 6cyl since, like you said earlier, they could've easily made that engine more fuel efficient by working a bit more on it instead of dropping the ball like you said they did!

I personally have no cogent advice for BMW as to engine modifications for better fuel mileage, but have suggested overdrive gearing for better highway mileage. If pressed, I would tend to think that engine mods sufficient to significantly improve mileage would mess up that more or less peerless torque curve, which would be criminal, in my opinion.

Dropping the final drive ratio to somewhere between current and 335 gearing would improve overall mileage, but would affect off the line performance to some extent. Not a bunch, though, since the current car is essentially traction limited in first gear.

The single best bang for the buck (or bang for the mileage) thing BMW could have done differently for the M3 is direct injection. BMW M seems almost capable of fortune telling. They knew they did not HAVE to include DI to have such an award winning engine. Other than the extra cost, complexity, engineering effort and departure from the base M5 engine, DI would present no downside.

Heck, it would have provided more torque and power as well. But of course, that was not required to make the car the best in class either.

I did not sway from buying the car due to mpg but I sure would have liked a lower consumption car.

Well, DI seems to come with some unpleasant side effects for long term reliability, such as carbon build -up. I think i read that Benz is introducing a hybrid DI-port injection system to eliminate the carbon buildup problem.

What exactly is the RS5 engine getting out of the DI? Real world results seem to indicate not a whole lot, if anything at all.

Guys, just enjoy the car for what it is. I just bought track tires and wheels, so I guess I'm going to burn as much fuel as I can...

Well, DI seems to come with some unpleasant side effects for long term reliability, such as carbon build -up. I think i read that Benz is introducing a hybrid DI-port injection system to eliminate the carbon buildup problem.

I've heard the horror stories from a few models. However, the number of cars and models using this is HUGE. For example every V6 Ford Ecoboost has DI. I suspect it was somewhat of an isolated incident(s).

I am a new e92 owner so I am not as brainwashed by the BMW brand as some of you. My personal opinion has been that 3 series are nothing special. I have never been impressed when seeing one and have always looked at them as entry level BMWs, much like the Mercedes C class. Some of the 3 series I see on the road, with cheaper wheels, etc. look terrible. They are over priced and for less money you can buy a better equipped car with more power, like a G37x.

The M3 however is different. Much different. It has class, exterior styling, respectable speed, and is one of the best special edition vehicles ever made IMO. Yes, it shares the same chassis as the other 3 series cars, including the 335i you all keep comparing the M3 to for some reason. But that's where the similarity ends. I could name a ton of other cars that blow the 335 away. I'd rather drive the new mustang than a 335i 6mt with mods. I would never buy a $40k to $60k car, under warranty, and modifiy it. Seems kind of ghetto to me. If you own one that is out of warranty or are so rich it doesn't matter then more power to ya. But saying a modded 335i is fast... Who cares? You can buy a Honda Civic and do the same thing, but you are still driving a Honda Civic. I feel what makes the M3 special is that it was engineered to be fast. ///M designed it that way. Not some kid who ordered parts on eBay.

I hope I don't come off wrong with my comments. It's hard sometimes to get your point across in writing. I am not trying to rip on BMW or say that 335i's are POS. I test drove one and it is a decent car, well built, etc. But it is not special like the M3.

Just to be clear, I love my e92. It is my first BMW and I have much more respect for the brand since purchasing it. Seriously, it is an amazing car. I owned a Cayman S prior to this but live in Chicago so I could only drive it when the weather was nice. I had a C300 as my commuter/winter car. The Cayman is an awesome car, I could go on and on about how well engineered that car is. I have always been a Porsche enthusiast and have great respect for the brand. Which is kind of why I am so drawn to the ///M cars. I have a high respect for the performance driven/race inspired cars coming out of Germany and the history that comes with them.

Well, you apparently like the M3 brand image quite a bit. When I've driven in Chicago it was frustrating the vast majority of the time...traffic and congestion limits the enjoyment of driving even my old '95 Maxima!

I've heard the horror stories from a few models. However, the number of cars and models using this is HUGE. For example every V6 Ford Ecoboost has DI. I suspect it was somewhat of an isolated incident(s).

Every manufacturer's implementation of DI is different. Carbon build up is a big problem for some cars and some manufacturers. This is also dependent on which country the gas is from and how it is made. US gasoline has a high amount of sulfur that isn't present in the gasoline from some other countries so DI has no problem in those places. The key is to come up with a reliable DI technology that works in all car markets. I believe the M3 doesn't have DI because they wanted to have maximum compatibility and reliability in all markets the car sells in.

The single best bang for the buck (or bang for the mileage) thing BMW could have done differently for the M3 is direct injection. BMW M seems almost capable of fortune telling. They knew they did not HAVE to include DI to have such an award winning engine. Other than the extra cost, complexity, engineering effort and departure from the base M5 engine, DI would present no downside.

Heck, it would have provided more torque and power as well. But of course, that was not required to make the car the best in class either.

I did not sway from buying the car due to mpg but I sure would have liked a lower consumption car.

As you say, we discussed/speculated a lot about this way back when. Some said that the technology hadn't quite caught up with high-rpm demands, while others thought that the cost would've been prohibitive, given that the car was already a pretty fair leap up from E46 turf, dollar-wise.

Nowadays, DI costs have obviously come down quite a lot with further development and proliferation.

I personally believe that DI (along with the longer gearing that the extra torque would've permitted) might have made quite a significant difference in both performance and mileage, as it obviously has elsewhere.

I had this same dilemma 2 years ago and i decided that the 15k difference in price was too much. I bought an '07 E90 6MT 335i fully loaded. I loved the car but over time the small things just started getting to me. The engine was too quiet so i swapped out the exhaust for a Borla turbo back setup and that improved things for a while. Then the run flats drove me mad so i swapped them for some new wheels and tires (19x9 and 19x11 with Bridgestone RE-11 235/275 widths) this made the grip and ride much better.

The car needed better shocks and an LSD badly.. Over certain bumps the ride was jarring and i thought there was nothing that can be done until i drove the M3 on the same bumps (more on that later). The lack of LSD really took the fun out of getting on the gas. Basically with 1 tire getting traction even with super sticky RE-11 275 width tires i was ALWAYS seeing the traction control light. With traction disabled i didnt have the confidence in the turns.

It seemed to me that to make things right with the car i would be spending upwards of 7k into a car that was not going to appreciate in value due to the mods. I decided to cut my losses and upgrade to an M3.

I bought an '08 E90 M3 2 months ago and owned both for a month until i sold the 335i. I was able to drive both back to back over the same roads on multiple occasions.

Here are my thoughts on the differences:

The throttle response on the M3 is insane! Slight throttle inputs or jamming the throttle to the floor all provide instant acceleration. Try doing that in a 335i.....and there is one big difference. If you quickly go WOT to no throttle back and forth a few times in a second in a 335i... NOTHING WILL HAPPEN! If you had a passenger they wouldn't even look at you. If you did this in an M3 in ANY gear even with its inferior torque figures, depending on the RPM it will either make your head wobble back and fourth or smack it against the head rest hard. I have a friend with a 2011 5.0 Mustang and he told me his car has more throttle lag compared to the M3. Also this car doesnt need an exhaust, its loud enough and sounds great stock.

Suspension, the EDC is awesome, its more taut than a 335i yet going over some big bumps that would almost feel like i was hitting the bump stops are no drama in the M3. Similarly some bumps i had to let of the gas in the 335 to avoid loosing traction whereas M3 goes over them with no issues.

Surprisingly the sport seats in the 335i fit me just as well as the M3 seats the added shoulder padding makes no difference for me.

Seeing the power dome each time you get in the car is awesome.The car looks much better in general and i always look back at it and smile, although i think i do this with all my cars.

Some negatives, in the 335i on my average commute i got 20-20.5mpg, on the same exact commute driving the same exact way in the M3 i get ~17mpg +/-2mpg depending on how much i beat on it.

Parts cost considerably more for the M3.. I did a full brake change Pads/Rotors on the 335 total parts cost was ~$550. Same parts for an M3 cost $1400. But you got to pay to play.

Bottom line, i dont regret selling my 335i at all! Only wish i could have kept the wheels i got for it but the offsets dont match what the M3 needs.

Who would take that slippery slope knowing a catless/tuned M3 would be as fast but cheaper to buy and to maintain then a highly modified 335?! Also the M3 would have a far better resale value, more fun factor, more factor, more confort and a LOT more reliability! All that for a bit of savings on gaz and more torque a low RPMs, not worth it at all.

I drive my stock M3 daily and in normal driving I really don't need more torque and when I do a spirited drive, I'm not missing torque needer cause I got 8400RPM, what I would like is an other 50hp, something I could get for 1500$ with just test pipes and a tune. I would'nt trade my EDC for anything in the world, that's what makes the M3 the best all-around car! IMO the feeling of the M3 when you drive it is exepcionnal and that's its greatest quality, that's what kepted the M3 on top of its competitors(RS4/RS5,C63,IS-F) for so long and that's something you don't get when you buy a 335 no mater how much money you put in it! Just my opinion!

In the end, to me , the 335 is not a bad car , it's a bad buy!

You are responding to a unique case where maybe 5 people on this earth have spend $30K in mods on a car costing a little more than $40K.

Most 335's are like mine...a couple grand in mods (tune, meth, dps and LSD). I did this run two days ago coming home from work. Not even that good as I didn't even brake boost...started in 2nd gear. The 0-60 was uphill too...on a level surface I typically log mid-3's...sometimes better. Check out the 0-100 time as well. No bolt-on M3 can do this with 19" street tires. Takes a supercharged one plus sticky tires to get these times.

And you aren't getting 50 Hp with "test pipes and a tune" on your M3. You are dreaming if you think you will.

Face it, most modded 335s will smoke you in a straight line. Track? Well of course the M3 has the advantage. But the 335 as a bad buy? Please.

Everyone always talks about "performance" (for which the M3 certainly is no slouch) and nobody ever talks about "quality". You pay more for one than the other. That's why an M car is set at it's pricepoint.