I read 2 articles on Cardinal Law and was wondering if I could get thoughts from the Catholics here on what Cardinal Law is doing in each of these and the fact that he is still a bishop of his diocese.

Sadly most of them don't care about the fact that Law is playing (?) Muslim lately. Most RCCs have long fallen into the trap of inter-faith BS, and those that speak against it are "schismatics" now. How sad.

If I were a bishop and had protected one pedophile it would have been a dreadful mistake and I would figure I had lost my marbles or at least had fallen so far into sin that I should no longer be a bishop.

Given what Law has already done nothing surprises me. He seems to have been a luster after power and followed his lust without conscience. These public actions seem to be the acts of a sociopathic personality. Why the Pope has not removed him is beyond me.

I would like to see an Iman return the favor in like kind. Dont hold you breath because the Muslims consider that an apostacy, and rightly so.It seems nothing is to far out of bounds for the RCC these days. They have lost their sense of what they are doing. I guess in a way the Cardinal is just following what the Pope did not too long ago by kissing the Quran. As a former Roman Catholic I would have considered what the Cardinal did as a serious (Mortal) sin. Knowingly, willingly, and with forethought entering a house of worship that was in direct opposition to his faith and partaking of a service alien to his own.JoeS

I never liked Law, but I would think these 2 articles would have Catholics up in arms. God Bless!

About what catholics think, most here would agree with that, the "spirit" of Vatican II is very much part of modern catholics.

I wouldn't be surprised with what Law did, remember that the Pope himself kissed the Koran, which calls us pigs, and denies the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.A Turkish girl (but Greek Orthodox in faith) told me that this would not scandalize Orthodox because the Patrarch of Constantinople often has prayer meatings with Muslims and has had similar gestures with them.

I do see muslims with respect and I think muslims and christians must be united for some causes, such as our desire of seeing the Holy Land of Christ free of the zionist jews.

But I think that under the present circumstances, where christians are victims of horrible crimes in Nigeria, Sudan and Indonesia, acts such as that of Cardinal Law, the prayer meetings of HH Bartolomew and the kissing of the Koran by the Pope are a betrayal betrayal against our Brothers.

But I think that under the present circumstances, where christians are victims of horrible crimes in Nigeria, Sudan and Indonesia, acts such as that of Cardinal Law, the prayer meetings of HH Bartolomew and the kissing of the Koran by the Pope are a betrayal betrayal against our Brothers.

But I think that under the present circumstances, where christians are victims of horrible crimes in Nigeria, Sudan and Indonesia, acts such as that of Cardinal Law, the prayer meetings of HH Bartolomew and the kissing of the Koran by the Pope are a betrayal betrayal against our Brothers.

I am at a ???lost, but could someone explain the problem with " Zionist Jews " in the Holy Land and the connection to Muslims ?

Sure, Israel is a racist apartheid like colonial settler regime much as the former South Africa. The connection to Muslims is that the Zionist Jews (mostly of European descent) oppress the native Palestinians, the majority of who are Muslim. Remie’s comment implies that in this context Christians and Muslims have a joint interest in seeing the end of the Zionist state.

Sure, Israel is a racist apartheid like colonial settler regime much as the former South Africa. The connection to Muslims is that the Zionist Jews (mostly of European descent) oppress the native Palestinians, the majority of who are Muslim. Remie’s comment implies that in this context Christians and Muslims have a joint interest in seeing the end of the Zionist state.

Okay time for some facts. The majority of Jewish Israelis are of Sephardic descent. After the foundation of Israel, approximately 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab nations. Contrast that to the 600,000 "Palestinians" expelled from Israel. The majority of these Jews immigrated to Israel. (Query...where were they supposed to go?) Now as for the minority population of European Jews, most were from Eastern Europe. Approximately 300,000 came from displaced persons' camps after the war. (Query...where were they supposed to go? Back to Poland which is essentially one huge Jewish graveyard? BTW, America didn't open up its doors to Jewish refugees until the late 1940's so we weren't an option.)

Now for the term "Palestinian", there has never been an independent "Palestinian" state. What is now Israel always had both Jewish and Arab settlements. "Palestinian" is a term that was invented in the past century. The people who today call themselves "Palestinians" are of the same ethnicity as the Jordanians. Of course they're not allowed to immigrate to Jordan. Jordan and all of the other Arab nations want the "Palestinians" to remain in the camps where they are pawns.

Now a brief history lesson on the foundation of Israel. In 1947, the UN approved a partition plan which would have created two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted the partition plan but the Arabs did not. Five Arab armies invaded the state of Israel. During the war, thousands of Jewish refugees fled Arab nations and thousands of Arab refugees fled Israel for Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. The Jewish refugees were accepted as citizens of Israel while the Arab refugees were refused entry to Arab nations and were sent to refugee camps.

Let's contrast Israel to the apartheid system. First Israel has Arab citizens. Under Apartheid, blacks were not allowed to vote. That's a fundamental difference. Second, the Israelies did not establish the "Palestinian" refugee camps and did not force Arabs to leave Israel. Under apartheid, blacks were not allowed to live outside of the townships.

As for "oppressing" the Palestinians, in accord with the Oslo agreements, Israel has given 98% of administrative authority over to Arafat's. Israel has even allowed the Palestinian Authority to arm 40,000 "police."

Now for the racism charge, anyone who has a Jewish grandparent or is a Jew through conversion can become an Israeli citizen. Anyone regardless of race can convert to Judaism.

Christians have an interest in seeing to it that the Jews survive. Christians should also realize that there would be no Israel if it weren't for the holocaust which happened in the middle of Christian Europe. Maybe if Christians had prevented the wholesale murder of 80% of the Jewish population of Europe, Israel would not have been founded.

I ask all of you who hate Israel and the "zionist Jews" to please tell me where the Holocaust survivors sitting in displaced persons' camps in Germany were supposed to go? Israel was the only country that opened its doors to them. Also please tell me where the almost one million Sephardic Jews were supposed to go when they were expelled from Arab countries? Once again, no one was opening the doors for the Jews. Please answer these questions before you spout off about ridding the Holy Land of "zionist Jews."

I am at a lost, but could someone explain the problem with " Zionist Jews " in the Holy Land and the connection to Muslims ?

Zionism is unfortunately a racist phenomenon, probably the last conspicuous form of institutionalized, overt racism in the "civilized", western world (which is how Israel is portrayed in the American media - as "little American style democracy in the Middle East", and uniquely so). The strange thing is, it started off as a obviously secular phenomenon, with religious, "orthodox" jewry being not simply wary of it, but even hostile towards it. That situation has changed, but there are still some conspicuous examples of anti-Zionist religious Jews (like the Satmar Hasidim, who can often be seen protesting Israel in rallies in America alongside Arabs).

The Muslim connection, is that the major part of the Arab population displaced by the Zionists, are Muslims (though there is an often forgotten, significant Christian Arab minority involved here as well, and it too has been victimized by the Zionists.)

Cardinal Law's prayer with the Moslems is, as far as I am concerned, nothing less than an apostate act.

It would seem that way. Though I think it betrays not an apostasy to Islam, as much as an overt apostasy to some kind of new-world-order, pan-religious, anti-Christ religion. Simply put, Law isn't principled enough or clear thinking enough to actually make a serious conversion to the "deen" of "al-Islam".

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He won't be tossed out on his ear, though. He's being a good little Catholic ecumenist, and the Vatican loves that.

If you look at the list of men that the Vatican has actually harassed and "excommunicated" since Vatican II, it reads like a "whose who" of old school, principled (even if still heterodox) Roman Catholicism...

These are the only censures that not only have stuck, but are stated unequivically. For example, even Hans Kung (who has written any number of blasphemies) has not been excommunicated; rather he simply had his theological credentials suspended (which simply means that he is not forbidden to teach or write; simply he doesn't do so as an "accredited", Roman licenced theologian...in other words, a symbolic gesture which amounts to nothing.)

While groups like the SSPX obviously hold to an idea of Christianity which is in many respects offensive to Orthodox sensibilities, one thing I have noticed amongst true Orthodox (not our own modernists, which we sadly have) is that they are at least respected for being principled (and for what aspects of ancient Roman Christianity that they do preserve). It reminds me of an anecdote someone once shared about their meeting with an Anglican priest...

"I liked the Romans better when they didn't like us."

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Just another push toward Orthodoxy for me...

Unlike some peopple, I won't pooh-pooh you seeking Orthodoxy due to dissillusionment with another religion. BUT I strongly suggest you start trying to understand and appreciate the "positive" argument for Orthodoxy; that is to say, understand what Orthodox Christianity fundamentally "is", and why it is seperate from heterodox creeds (and thus realize perhaps why those religions, like Catholicism, have now gone totally off the deep end.)

"Zionism is unfortunately a racist phenomenon, probably the last conspicuous form of institutionalized, overt racism in the "civilized", western world (which is how Israel is portrayed in the American media - as "little American style democracy in the Middle East", and uniquely so). The strange thing is, it started off as a obviously secular phenomenon, with religious, "orthodox" jewry being not simply wary of it, but even hostile towards it. That situation has changed, but there are still some conspicuous examples of anti-Zionist religious Jews (like the Satmar Hasidim, who can often be seen protesting Israel in rallies in America alongside Arabs)."

Some secular assimilated Jews in Europe became zionists in the late 19th century because they finally realized that they would never be accepted in Europe as Jews. It's not so much racism as a reaction to racism. Herzl, for example, became a zionist after he covered the Dreyfus trial as a journalist. Zionism was a 'reality check' if anything. Let's not forget that zionism came to be at the same time as the birth of modern day anti-semitism which was much more racist than religiously based. There was literally hundreds of anti-semetic newspapers in Europe at the time screaming for the expulsion of the Jews from Europe. So some Jews realized that they would never have any freedom unless they lived only amongst other Jews. Frankly, I think had you or I been in their position we would have arrived at the same conclusion.

BTW, most Satmar Hasidim do not publically protest the state of Israel. It's only a very small minority who are essentially pariahs in the Hasidic community.

I'm a bit shaken by the anti-Jewish sentiment I'm reading in some of the posts. Surely Christian Arabs are as many in danger from Muslims as they are from Jews. One might have wished that Jews could have continued to blend in with the bedouins who occupied the area of the British Mandate but wake up friends, the Brits were on their way out whether or not Jews immigrated. Moreover, as Jennifer has said, there was no place for the Jews to go. Do you really wish that they had all been exterminated?

I'm a bit shaken by the anti-Jewish sentiment I'm reading in some of the posts. Surely Christian Arabs are as many in danger from Muslims as they are from Jews. One might have wished that Jews could have continued to blend in with the bedouins who occupied the area of the British Mandate but wake up friends, the Brits were on their way out whether or not Jews immigrated. Moreover, as Jennifer has said, there was no place for the Jews to go. Do you really wish that they had all been exterminated?

Dan Lauffer

Well it's nice to see that someone else is offended by comments like "our desire of seeing the Holy Land of Christ free of the zionist jews." I let it go for a day before posting in hopes that someone would be offended and say something.

I doubt that they really wanted to Jews to be exterminated. It's just the existence of the Jews is an unpleasant reality. It's much easier to pretend that it's all black and white...the "bad" Jews and the "good" Palestinians. And they probably don't know the history. Most critics of Israel have no idea that the majority of Israelis were expelled from Arab nations because that story is never told on ABC news. And most don't know that there would be no "Palestinian" problem if the "Palestinians" were allowed to immigrate to Arab nations. But the Arab nations don't want them. Arab leaders want the "Palestinians" locked up in refugee camps. So much for their concern for the "Palestinians."

BTW, Christian Arabs were much better off under Israeli rule than under the Palestinian Authority. I read that many Christians whose families have lived in Bethlehem for centuries are leaving because the Palestinian Authority is so corrupt and fanatical anti-Christian sentiment is growing amongst "Palestinian" Muslims. Interesing isn't that Bethlehem Christian for centuries (even under the Jews) but now that Arafat is in charge it's becoming Muslim.

So once again, does anyone have an answer as where the two million European Jews who survived the Holocaust were supposed to go in 1947? And where were the 800,000 Arab Jews kicked out of Arab countries supposed to go?

Now a brief history lesson on the foundation of Israel. In 1947, the UN approved a partition plan which would have created two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted the partition plan but the Arabs did not.

Good for the Arabs. The U.N. nor anyone else had any right to be partitioning Arab lands and expelling Arabs from their houses in the first place. It was not their land to partition, it was not thier right to give a ‘plan’ for the Arabs to accept on their homeland.

Christians have an interest in seeing to it that the Jews survive. Christians should also realize that there would be no Israel if it weren't for the holocaust which happened in the middle of Christian Europe. Maybe if Christians had prevented the wholesale murder of 80% of the Jewish population of Europe, Israel would not have been founded.

None of that is of any doing or concern for the Arab victims of Zionist racist colonial terror. Christian Europe pays for the crimes of Christian Europe. Arabs didn’t put Jews in gas tanks, ovens, and labor camps; Germans did. Germans pay for the crimes of Germany, not Palestinians.

This is a ridiculous and peculiar American phenomenon. The rest of the world and the rest of Christendom take the other side in this Israel settler business. Our Pope H.H. Shenouda III in Egypt has encouraged us to support the Palestinian liberation struggle. The Patriarchs in Antioch and most of World Orthodoxy have made statements supportive of the Palestinians or have at least condemned Israel. Only American Protestants and American ex-Protestants have some hang up about Israel. But it is racist to even debate the question if the Palestinians are oppressed or not. This is not a game, this is the future and self-determination of the native people of the Holy Land. If there is anything to debate it is how best to support the Palestinian people in their yearning for freedom.

Dan says:

I'm a bit shaken by the anti-Jewish sentiment I'm reading in some of the posts.

lol. We are not falling in for that bait. Most of our San Francisco anti-Zionists activists and radio talk show hosts, like Dennis Bernstein, are Jews. They receive hate mail from Zionists with “Hitler apparently killed the wrong Jews” being a usual assault. In any case I was a bit shaken by your anti-Islamic/anti-Arab sentiment that you displayed the other day.

Let's contrast Israel to the apartheid system.

So lets. Let a victim of Apartheid speak on this:

“These tactics are not the only parallels to the struggle against apartheid. Yesterday's South African township dwellers can tell you about today's life in the Occupied Territories. To travel only blocks in his own homeland, a grandfather waits on the whim of a teenage soldier. More than an emergency is needed to get to a hospital; less than a crime earns a trip to jail. The lucky ones have a permit to leave their squalor to work in Israel's cities, but their luck runs out when security closes all checkpoints, paralyzing an entire people. The indignities, dependence and anger are all too familiar.

Many South Africans are beginning to recognize the parallels to what we went through. Ronnie Kasrils and Max Ozinsky, two Jewish heroes of the anti-apartheid struggle, recently published a letter titled "Not in My Name." Signed by several hundred other prominent Jewish South Africans, the letter drew an explicit analogy between apartheid andcurrent Israeli policies. Mark Mathabane and Nelson Mandela have also pointed out the relevance of the South African experience.”

An interesting insiders account of American conversions to Orthodoxy being confronted with the ugly truth of Zionism. This is from Father Gillquist’s book Becoming Orthodox:

As emotions mellowed over the coffee, desert, and now cigars [to celebrate their conversion], Fr. Gordon Walker made a request. “Your Eminence,” he began, “many of us come from backgrounds that have been pro-Israel. Here we are coming into a Church that has been brought to America by Arab Christians. Take a minute as these depraved men are finishing their cigars, and tell us how you view the regathering of the nation of Israel.”

It was tragic his answer wasn’t taped. For thirty minutes, starting with Abraham in the Old Testament, Metropolitan Philip gave us the most profoundly moving Bible lesson on Israel and the Arab nations I have ever heard. He was careful to clarify the difference between Zionism as a political movement, often exclusivistic and apartheid, and Judaism as a respected nation and faith. I can not think of an evangelical Christian who would not have waited in line and paid at the door to get in. I came away with a greater desire for peace and justice in the Middle East—both for Israel and the Palestinians—then I had ever known before.

Good for the Arabs. The U.N. nor anyone else had any right to be partitioning Arab lands and expelling Arabs from their houses in the first place. It was not their land to partition, it was not thier right to give a ‘plan’ for the Arabs to accept on their homeland.

You didn't answer the question. BTW, did the Arabs have the right to expell 800,000 Jews? The Partition gave land to the Jews where the Jews already lived. Jews have lived in the Holy Land for thousands of years. Arabs lost land when they lost their war against Israel. That's what happens when you go to war and lose.

None of that is of any doing or concern for the Arab victims of Zionist racist colonial terror. Christian Europe pays for the crimes of Christian Europe. Arabs didn’t put Jews in gas tanks, ovens, and labor camps; Germans did. Germans pay for the crimes of Germany, not Palestinians.

This is a ridiculous and peculiar American phenomenon. The rest of the world and the rest of Christendom take the other side in this Israel settler business. Our Pope H.H. Shenouda III in Egypt has encouraged us to support the Palestinian liberation struggle. The Patriarchs in Antioch and most of World Orthodoxy have made statements supportive of the Palestinians or have at least condemned Israel. Only American Protestants and American ex-Protestants have some hang up about Israel. But it is racist to even debate the question if the Palestinians are oppressed or not. This is not a game, this is the future and self-determination of the native people of the Holy Land. If there is anything to debate it is how best to support the Palestinian people in their yearning for freedom.

I've never been a Protestant yet I still have a "hang up about Israel." Unfortunately "World Orthodoxy" doesn't much a good track record where the Jews are concerned so I'm not surprised that they condemn Israel.

Actually I'll be a lot more concerned about the "Palestinians" "yearning for freedom" when Arabs start caring about it. Are you Egyptian? Why doesn't Egypt allow Palestinians to emigrate?

“These tactics are not the only parallels to the struggle against apartheid. Yesterday's South African township dwellers can tell you about today's life in the Occupied Territories. To travel only blocks in his own homeland, a grandfather waits on the whim of a teenage soldier. More than an emergency is needed to get to a hospital; less than a crime earns a trip to jail. The lucky ones have a permit to leave their squalor to work in Israel's cities, but their luck runs out when security closes all checkpoints, paralyzing an entire people. The indignities, dependence and anger are all too familiar.

Many South Africans are beginning to recognize the parallels to what we went through. Ronnie Kasrils and Max Ozinsky, two Jewish heroes of the anti-apartheid struggle, recently published a letter titled "Not in My Name." Signed by several hundred other prominent Jewish South Africans, the letter drew an explicit analogy between apartheid andcurrent Israeli policies. Mark Mathabane and Nelson Mandela have also pointed out the relevance of the South African experience.”

An interesting insiders account of American conversions to Orthodoxy being confronted with the ugly truth of Zionism. This is from Father Gillquist’s book Becoming Orthodox:

As emotions mellowed over the coffee, desert, and now cigars [to celebrate their conversion], Fr. Gordon Walker made a request. “Your Eminence,” he began, “many of us come from backgrounds that have been pro-Israel. Here we are coming into a Church that has been brought to America by Arab Christians. Take a minute as these depraved men are finishing their cigars, and tell us how you view the regathering of the nation of Israel.”

It was tragic his answer wasn’t taped. For thirty minutes, starting with Abraham in the Old Testament, Metropolitan Philip gave us the most profoundly moving Bible lesson on Israel and the Arab nations I have ever heard. He was careful to clarify the difference between Zionism as a political movement, often exclusivistic and apartheid, and Judaism as a respected nation and faith. I can not think of an evangelical Christian who would not have waited in line and paid at the door to get in. I came away with a greater desire for peace and justice in the Middle East—both for Israel and the Palestinians—then I had ever known before.

So does Fr. Gilchrist have a suggestion as to where the millions of displaced Jews were supposed to go after WWII? BTW, the average Israeli is Arab so why don't they have the right to live in Israel? They're not allowed to live the Arab nations where their people have lived for centuries. They're as Arab as the Palestinians.

Arabs lost land when they lost their war against Israel. That's what happens when you go to war and lose.

I know how the game of conquer, ethnic cleanse and genocide works. No need to remind me of its rules.

"World Orthodoxy" doesn't much a good track record where the Jews are concerned so I'm not surprised that they condemn Israel.

I meant Arab and African world Orthodoxy while of course the support from the others is also welcome. Arab and African Orthodoxy did nothing to the Jews, and the Arab Orthodox and Catholics are just as much victim of Zionist racist terror as Arab Muslims.

BTW, the Jews are the native people of the Holy Land.

Not the war criminals from Europe who rule Israel.

Israel did not establish the refugee camps. The refugee camps only exist because Arab nations refuse to allow the "Palestinians" to emigrate.

I will let that racist backhanded support for ethnic cleansing post speak for itself; please don’t erase it. (and I don’t know who died and gave you the right to define other people and put the name they choose for themselves in quotes; did your grand-daddy refuse to stop saying ‘Negro’ when Black people decided to call themselves African Americans? Palestinians decide if they are Palestinians or not; not you). If there is anywhere the Palestinians are going to emigrate it is back to their houses and lands stolen by Zionist thieves starting from 1948 and continuing until today.

Are you Egyptian? Why doesn't Egypt allow Palestinians to emigrate?

lol. As if “we all look alike” wasn’t enough, now we all ’sound alike.” Does Aklie Semaet sound Egyptian? How so? No I am not an Egyptian but Egyptians are cool and I love them. Anyway, it is attitudes like yours that led to so many hate crimes and murders being committed against “Osama Bin Laden look-alikes” such as Indian Sikhs, Coptic Christians and Pakistani grocery workers. All murdered because people didn’t understand diversity and had a cliche for ethnic cleansing.

--------------------------------Suggestion from an Israeli officer according to the Israeli daily Ma'ariv:

"If our job is to seize a densely packed refugee campor take over the Nablus casbah, and if this job isgiven to an (Israeli) officer to carry out withoutcasualties on both sides, he must before all elseanalyse and bring together the lessons of pastbattles, even - shocking though this might appear - toanalyse how the German army operated in the Warsaw ghetto."-----------------------------------"the Israeli Land Authority, which is the executive organ of the Jewish National Fund, forbids the sale of land under its control (92% of Israel's land belong to the Jewish National Fund) to non-Jews."

Your name calling and empty insinuations aside your comments about Father Gillquist are irrelavent to the discussion. He, at least, supports peace and justice for both Jews and Arabs. You seem not to give a rip what happens to the Jews as long as they cease to exist.

Serge's solution to the problem may be the best. Let us leave both sides alone to work out their differences. I suggest that if we'd stay out of it they would. The Jews have shown that they are well able to defend themselves.

BTW everyone should read Bat Ye'ors studies of Islam and the Christian world to see just how nice and loving Arabs can be.

I don't know how this will all work out, but I do know that condemning Israel across the board is something I will never accept.

Dan Lauffer

Aklie,

Are you really as foolish as you seem? You continually refuse to address the issues. Now you are calling the few Jews who escaped the extermination camps of Europe "war criminals". I suppose in your twisted mind they are criminals because they survived.

He,[Father Gillquist] at least, supports peace and justice for both Jews and Arabs. You seem not to give a rip what happens to the Jews as long as they cease to exist.

Dan,

I support the peace that is a natural by-product of liberation and self-determination.

Ethiopia is the home of the Ark of the Covenant and our Monarch (now in exile) is a descendant of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. We are the only Christians who stand up for the Judaic heritage and background of Christianity and maintain its traditions as part of our practice.

Nevertheless, I refuse to fall into the trap to post my “I am not anti-Jewish” credentials just because I am opposed to Israel and someone throws the ‘you must hate Jews’ bait at me. Like I said, in this area most of the anti-Zionist activist are Jewish.

World Jewry will see its freedom as it defeats anti-Semitism where it exists in the world. Just as racism doesn’t end by running from it but by fighting it. No one (not even the African Americans who founded the racist state of Liberia running from the horror of American slavery) has the right to base their “freedom” on the oppression of others in their own native land. Martyrs like Abram Leon and the heroes of the Jewish underground resistance against the Nazis who refused to give in to Zionism and continued to fight for freedom where they were are an inspiration to all.

For the record I am against ALL of the racism and ethnic cleansing. I am against what is done to Jews in Muslim lands as well as what is done against Christians. I am against Arab and Muslim oppression of Armenians, Copts, Assyrians, Kurds, and all others.

However, what Arabs do in Morocco to Jews has nothing to do with Palestinians. People who try to draw the connection are just attempting to make a character assassination of Arabs so they build more support for Israel. Israel is a racist apartheid settler colonial state and should not be supported whatsoever by Apostolic Christians.

Serge's solution to the problem may be the best. Let us leave both sides alone to work out their differences.

If that refers to the libertarian principle of a cease to the billions of dollars in military aid to Israel yes I do support that.

-------

Are you really as foolish as you seem? You continually refuse to address the issues. Now you are calling the few Jews who escaped the extermination camps of Europe "war criminals". I suppose in your twisted mind they are criminals because they survived.

War criminals refers to people like Arial Sharron who has been called a war criminal for a massacre he was involved with against Palestinians some years ago.

I was wondering, when confronted with individuals you wouldn't dare call "anti-Semites" or "anti-Jewish" (deeply religious Orthodox Jews who are opposed to the "State of Israel"), how do you dismiss them?

Arabs lost land when they lost their war against Israel. That's what happens when you go to war and lose.

I know how the game of conquer, ethnic cleanse and genocide works. No need to remind me of its rules.

"World Orthodoxy" doesn't much a good track record where the Jews are concerned so I'm not surprised that they condemn Israel.

I meant Arab and African world Orthodoxy while of course the support from the others is also welcome. Arab and African Orthodoxy did nothing to the Jews, and the Arab Orthodox and Catholics are just as much victim of Zionist racist terror as Arab Muslims.

BTW, the Jews are the native people of the Holy Land.

Not the war criminals from Europe who rule Israel.

Israel did not establish the refugee camps. The refugee camps only exist because Arab nations refuse to allow the "Palestinians" to emigrate.

I will let that racist backhanded support for ethnic cleansing post speak for itself; please don’t erase it. (and I don’t know who died and gave you the right to define other people and put the name they choose for themselves in quotes; did your grand-daddy refuse to stop saying ‘Negro’ when Black people decided to call themselves African Americans? Palestinians decide if they are Palestinians or not; not you). If there is anywhere the Palestinians are going to emigrate it is back to their houses and lands stolen by Zionist thieves starting from 1948 and continuing until today.

Are you Egyptian? Why doesn't Egypt allow Palestinians to emigrate?

lol. As if “we all look alike” wasn’t enough, now we all ’sound alike.” Does Aklie Semaet sound Egyptian? How so? No I am not an Egyptian but Egyptians are cool and I love them. Anyway, it is attitudes like yours that led to so many hate crimes and murders being committed against “Osama Bin Laden look-alikes” such as Indian Sikhs, Coptic Christians and Pakistani grocery workers. All murdered because people didn’t understand diversity and had a cliche for ethnic cleansing.

--------------------------------Suggestion from an Israeli officer according to the Israeli daily Ma'ariv:

"If our job is to seize a densely packed refugee campor take over the Nablus casbah, and if this job isgiven to an (Israeli) officer to carry out withoutcasualties on both sides, he must before all elseanalyse and bring together the lessons of pastbattles, even - shocking though this might appear - toanalyse how the German army operated in the Warsaw ghetto."-----------------------------------"the Israeli Land Authority, which is the executive organ of the Jewish National Fund, forbids the sale of land under its control (92% of Israel's land belong to the Jewish National Fund) to non-Jews."

The partition would have established both an Arab and a Jewish state. And remember that there many Jews living in Israel before the state of Israel was established. Some had lived in the Holy Land for hundreds of years. Newer immigrants came from Europe because they had no other place to go. The UN had no other alternative to the partition. The Jews of Europe had to go somewhere and many Jews already lived in Israel. The British were pulling out. The best way to handle the situation was to divide it up. In 1948, there were about 650,000 Jews living in what is now Israel. 75% of the land allocated to the Jews was desert. It did not include Jerusalem. The Jews accepted the partition plan but the Arabs rejected it and attached Israel creating the modern day crisis.

BTW, over 70% of the Arabs who fled never saw an Israeli soldier. And most of them were from Jordan. Unfortunately for them the Arab League forbad any Arab country from accepting these "refugees".

Do you now live in the US? I don't think that's your native land and let's not forget that was stolen from the Native Americans. I think you should go home and I'll be packing my bags to head back to Europe where my ancestors came from. But big dilemma for me because I have a Cherokee great-grandmother so maybe I'll get to stay. That's the way of the world. You can say that it's support for ethnic cleansing in your desperate search for black and white. The Arabs made a bad choice when they attacked Israel in 1948. Had they not done so, there would be a "Palestinian" state today. After WWII, ethnic Germans who had lived in Hungary and Poland for centuries were expelled. I suppose that we should crying over their lost homes and businesses. But we don't do that because they lost the war. That's what happens when you lose. Just like the American Indians.

I was wondering, when confronted with individuals you wouldn't dare call "anti-Semites" or "anti-Jewish" (deeply religious Orthodox Jews who are opposed to the "State of Israel"), how do you dismiss them?

Hasidic Jews as scandalized by their behavior. Some of them even marched with Israel's enemies on the Sabbath. BTW, Neturei Karta is a fringe group that is not supported by any of the Hasidic groups including the Satmar. I know you want to believe that the "good" religious Jews are opposed to Israel because they don't support secular Judaism but I'm afraid it's not true. The strongest supporters of Israel in the US are the Modern Orthodox. The Hasidim while not recognizing the state of Israel support its policies. At the rallies for Israel held in DC and NYC last year there were many 'black hats'.

Wow, rationalizing the oppression of everyone now including the Native Americans. I am not even wasting any more of my time; you are a fanatical Zionist. You are for the oppression of my Palestinian brothers and sisters. You favorably refer to an article that says "...their depiction in the local and international media in religious garb and prayer shawls marching arm-in-arm with Palestinian Jew-haters”

“Jew-haters“ !! A people that you have robbed of their homes, lands, liberty and tried to destroy and who are fighting for their survival and freedom. They are reduced to ‘Jew-haters.’

There is no leeway with you. Nothing to debate. I will see you on the other side of the trenches. Good-bye.

We alll know that the jewish people were indeed the original people of Palestine-Israel, together with other groups, but they left that Land thousands of years ago, and they just came back after the 50's.

I put an example: Would it be licit if someone goes to a house and says that he will be the owner of that house and that the familly which lives there must leave, only because he had lived in that house many years ago?

And there's also one thing. The gypsies have had a similar situation, they left their homeland (which remains unknown) and now live in several countries, they also suffered horrible persecutions by the nazis, and did they receive a state? No they didn't, because they were al poor people, they had no banks, no accounts in Switzerland, and a good reputation in buissness.

I'd like to know where you got those figures about the Sepharadi being the majority in Israel, if I'm not mistaken, German and Yiddish are the second language there, and not Laddin (Old Spanish). I have to say that I have no personal animosity toward the jewish people, who have suffered so much, and I know that most of them do not support what their state is doing. I doubt the Sepharadi would support the attitude of the government in Israel, after they were expelled from Spain, they were received in many Arab nations, and they are proud of their three origins, Jewish, Spanish and Arabic.

Sorry if I deviated the original purposes of this topic, but I needed to put some comments.

Going back to the topic. I share your views about how disturbing is to see these attitudes amoong some Catholic hierarhcs:

Last week, Archbishop Milingo, who had apostated in favor of an unchristian sect, got married, and did public repudiation of Catholicism, celebrated a Solemn Mass in Rome, as if nothing had happened. On the other side, Archbishop Lefebvre, was excommunicated in 48 hours (because of an act of schism!)

In my opinion, in spite of the twisted view that some traditional catholics have about the Orthodox Churches, they're much closer to Orthodox, than modern Catholics. The reforms of Vatican II and the serious departure from the christian doctrine after that Council, will become the most important obstacle to the restoration of full communion between Orthodox and Catholics, as Greek Orthodox Bishop of Mexico, Paul de Ballester, stated.

We alll know that the jewish people were indeed the original people of Palestine-Israel, together with other groups, but they left that Land thousands of years ago, and they just came back after the 50's.

I put an example: Would it be licit if someone goes to a house and says that he will be the owner of that house and that the familly which lives there must leave, only because he had lived in that house many years ago?

And there's also one thing. The gypsies have had a similar situation, they left their homeland (which remains unknown) and now live in several countries, they also suffered horrible persecutions by the nazis, and did they receive a state? No they didn't, because they were al poor people, they had no banks, no accounts in Switzerland, and a good reputation in buissness.

I'd like to know where you got those figures about the Sepharadi being the majority in Israel, if I'm not mistaken, German and Yiddish are the second language there, and not Laddin (Old Spanish). I have to say that I have no personal animosity toward the jewish people, who have suffered so much, and I know that most of them do not support what their state is doing. I doubt the Sepharadi would support the attitude of the government in Israel, after they were expelled from Spain, they were received in many Arab nations, and they are proud of their three origins, Jewish, Spanish and Arabic.

Sorry if I deviated the original purposes of this topic, but I needed to put some comments.

There is so much misinformation here that I don't know where to start. First, most Jews support the actions of the state of Israel. Read any Jewish newspaper and you'll see it for yourself. Check out the moderated Jewish usenet group. Shas, the most right-wing of all of the political parties, is Sephardic.

The Jews had suffered much persecution in the Christian and the Muslim world. You assume that this means that they won't engage in persecution themselves but Jews know that the world doesn't care about them. They know that if they don't take care of themselves no one else will. It's survival for them.

Now as for your claim that the Jews only came back after the 1950's, that's not true either. There have always been Jews in the Holy Land. In fact, Jews were the majority religious group in Jerusalem in the 19th century.

Yiddish is hardly spoken in Israel. In fact, Yiddish is only spoken by the ultra-Orthodox. You're more likely to hear Yiddish on the streets in Brooklyn than in Israel. (BTW, it's Ladino not Laddin.) Sephardic Jews who settled in the mideasts spoke Arabic not Ladino. Ladino is essentially a dead language because 90% of Ladino speaking Jews were killed in the Holocaust. They lived in Greece, Bosnia, Serbia, etc.

BTW, those Swiss bank accounts you refer to were stolen by the Swiss. Most Holocaust survivors lost everything. Maybe they should go back to Poland or Ukraine and reclaim the houses and farms that were stolen from them when they were marched off to the camps. Do you know how much American and European wealth came from plundered Jewish fortunes? There are literally hundreds of former Jewish villages in eastern Europe that have no record that Jews ever lived there. The homes the Jews owned are now owned by Poles or Ukrainians. So maybe today there's a home in Haifa that was once owned by a Palestinian but is now owned by a Jew who came from Poland whose home in Poland is now owned by a Pole. And the Pole who lives in that house might have lost the house that they owned in Ukraine when they were expelled by Stalin because they were ethnically Polish. And maybe the house the Pole owned in Ukraine is now owned by a Ukrainian. See it's really messy and if you're going to demand justice for the Palestinians then you better get ready to demand justice for a lot of other groups too.

Wow, rationalizing the oppression of everyone now including the Native Americans. I am not even wasting any more of my time; you are a fanatical Zionist. You are for the oppression of my Palestinian brothers and sisters. You favorably refer to an article that says "...their depiction in the local and international media in religious garb and prayer shawls marching arm-in-arm with Palestinian Jew-haters”

“Jew-haters“ !! A people that you have robbed of their homes, lands, liberty and tried to destroy and who are fighting for their survival and freedom. They are reduced to ‘Jew-haters.’

There is no leeway with you. Nothing to debate. I will see you on the other side of the trenches. Good-bye.

I'm a zionist and I love the Jews. I'm an American and as such I believe that I owe a debt to the Jews because my country turned its back on the Jews of Europe. As a Catholic, I recognize that too many of my co-religionists have been "Jew-haters" throughout the centuries. I know that their hatred of the Jews laid the foundation for the murder of the Jews. So I will do whatever it takes to see to it that the Jews survive.

Have you no sympathy for the Jews who lost their homes and who fought for their survival? The zionists believed that a Jewish state was necessary if the Jews were to survive.

BTW, I linked the site. I didn't 'favorably' or 'unfavorably' refer to it. Although it's a message from all of the major Hasidic groups and I love the Hasidim.

I'm a Christian and as such I accept that oppression is a part of human existence. I don't believe in utopia. I don't think that mankind can get its act together. I know that the history of the world is survival of the strongest. My ancestors (yours too) conquered weaker people. Do you really think that any one land really belongs to one ethnic group? Maybe I should give my house back to the Native Americans but then that tribe destroyed another tribe that lived there before them and so on and so on.

Don't waste your time with such fanaticism. I have read your other posts in other areas and I know that you do demand justice for other groups as well as the Palestinians. It is worthless to even have a debate with someone who overtly supports the oppression of a nation. Would you argue with a Boer or an Afrikaaner about the merits of apartheid in South Africa? So why debate a Zionist. Debating them only gives them more credibility than they deserve. It is best to just support the Palestinian liberation movement.

Have you no sympathy for the Jews who lost their homes and who fought for their survival?

Did you even read what I wrote about the Jewish resistance movement against the Nazis or are you just babbling on without reading all the posts?

I'm a Christian and as such I accept that oppression is a part of human existence.

Then that’s is a worthless Christianity. I am a Christian and I don’t accept any oppression of anyone and will never live with it as a part of human existence. Oppression wasn’t always there so it does not need to remain.

My ancestors (yours too) conquered weaker people

Speak for yourself, you don’t know anything about my ancestors and no they did not conquer weaker people. If that sooths your ‘guilt’ psychology because you can only come to terms with the crimes of YOUR ancestors by implicating everyone else’s ancestors as well then that is your problem.

Maybe I should give my house back to the Native Americans but then that tribe destroyed another tribe that lived there before them and so on and so on.

Oh save the bull; the same bull that can be heard from the mouth of every conquering oppressor in the world. “Before we arrived your people fought each other” etc. Don’t just say things to say them. Yes, those Jews do deserve their houses and lands and bank accounts back.

<<I see them just as most Orthodox Jews see them, as <<lunatics. See the attached link <<http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/ncarticle/432/

Thank you for making your views clear, Jennifer. So let's recap. In your opinion: Non-Jewish anti-Zionist = anti-Semite Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist = lunatic Well, at least you don't mince words. The only thing I hope you will clarify is: does being opposed to a Palestinian state necessarily make one an anti-Arab racist? Is a Palestinian who supports the State of Israel necessarily a lunatic? Or do these things only work in one direction? In any case, thank you for providing the link. As the article indicates, there are many anti-Zionist Jews who do not ally themselves with the Palestinians (though I am still unsure how being so allied would necessarily make one a "lunatic," but let that pass). As you evidently prefer more "moderate" anti-Zionists such as the members of Satmar, you will no doubt appreciate the comments of one of their Rav, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum:

"...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel...and it most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of Israel...it is a mitzvah (good deed) obligatory for each individual and group to protest and to proclaim with whichever means possible and to do everything within ones capability for the honor of the Lord which has been desecrated by the Zionists and one must protest at every occasion and at all times and at every place..."

<<I know you want to believe that the "good" religious <<Jews are opposed to Israel because they don't <<support secular Judaism but I'm afraid it's not true. <<The strongest supporters of Israel in the US are the <<Modern Orthodox.

I don't "want" to believe anything other than the truth, and the truth is that Zionism is a wholly secular ideology with no support in rabbinic Jewish tradition before the 19th century. This will not change no matter how loudly and how often some "Modern Orthodox" Jews say otherwise. As for any group of people being "good," I tend to agree with my Solzhenitsyn that the "line between good and evil passes not through states, nor between political parties either - but right through every human heart."

<<So I take it you're moving then?

I won't play this game, Jennifer. The Americas are a lot further along in the process of conquest and subjugation than is Palestine/Israel, and what is feasible in one case may not be so in the other. In any case, I never said that all Jews should leave Palestine, or that the State of Israel should be entirely dismantled (though some Jews have). I have also never besought another nation to spend a great deal of tax-money defending my nation's sad treatment of its indigenous population, or my nations supposed "right to exist." I get particularly annoyed when I see Christians and Jews defending Israel as if modern Jews had some kind of God-given right to establish a government there. Traditional Orthodox Jews and traditional Orthodox Christians, I think, can agree that this is not so, though for different reasons. Modernists in both groups, of course, are free to disagree.

<<BTW, are you concerned about the 800,000 Arab <<Jews expelled from Muslim countries?

I am of course concerned by injustice perpetrated against anyone, anywhere, but honestly I don't hold Muslim countries to the same standard as those countries which are supposed to be "western democracies." I also don't advocate foreign aid to those countries any more than I do for Israel.

<<I tell you what...when they're allowed to go home to <<Egypt or Yemen, then the Palestinians can come <<home too.

Have you no sympathy for the Jews who lost their homes and who fought for their survival?

Did you even read what I wrote about the Jewish resistance movement against the Nazis or are you just babbling on without reading all the posts?

I'm a Christian and as such I accept that oppression is a part of human existence.

Then that’s is a worthless Christianity. I am a Christian and I don’t accept any oppression of anyone and will never live with it as a part of human existence. Oppression wasn’t always there so it does not need to remain.

My ancestors (yours too) conquered weaker people

Speak for yourself, you don’t know anything about my ancestors and no they did not conquer weaker people. If that sooths your ‘guilt’ psychology because you can only come to terms with the crimes of YOUR ancestors by implicating everyone else’s ancestors as well then that is your problem.

Maybe I should give my house back to the Native Americans but then that tribe destroyed another tribe that lived there before them and so on and so on.

Oh save the bull; the same bull that can be heard from the mouth of every conquering oppressor in the world. “Before we arrived your people fought each other” etc. Don’t just say things to say them. Yes, those Jews do deserve their houses and lands and bank accounts back.

I suspect that you're either very young or incredibly naive. If you live in the United States and participate in our society in any way then you live with the consequences of oppression. Where did the clothes that you wore today come from? Where did the money that paid your salary come from? America's natural resources were stolen from the Indians. A large part of our wealth came from the exploitation of African slaves. But yet you living in the modern world don't put up with oppression? If you it makes you feel better to live in that kind of a fantasy world then by all means continue on believing that you're not a part of the problem. And BTW every ethnic group that survives today 'ethnically cleansed' another ethnic group.

And when did oppression not exist? And when were we as Christians commended to fight against it at all costs? That's reducing Christianity to the social gospel. Jesus never advocated any revolution. He didn't stand up the Roman oppressors.

BTW, it's really easy for you to say that the Jews "deserve" what was stolen from them without actually doing anything about it.

<<Thank you for making your views clear, Jennifer. So let's recap. In your opinion: Non-Jewish anti-Zionist = anti-Semite Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist = lunatic Well, at least you don't mince words. The only thing I hope you will clarify is: does being opposed to a Palestinian state necessarily make one an anti-Arab racist? Is a Palestinian who supports the State of Israel necessarily a lunatic? Or do these things only work in one direction? In any case, thank you for providing the link. As the article indicates, there are many anti-Zionist Jews who do not ally themselves with the Palestinians (though I am still unsure how being so allied would necessarily make one a "lunatic," but let that pass). As you evidently prefer more "moderate" anti-Zionists such as the members of Satmar, you will no doubt appreciate the comments of one of their Rav, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum:

"...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel...and it most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of Israel...it is a mitzvah (good deed) obligatory for each individual and group to protest and to proclaim with whichever means possible and to do everything within ones capability for the honor of the Lord which has been desecrated by the Zionists and one must protest at every occasion and at all times and at every place..."

<<I know you want to believe that the "good" religious <<Jews are opposed to Israel because they don't <<support secular Judaism but I'm afraid it's not true. <<The strongest supporters of Israel in the US are the <<Modern Orthodox.

I don't "want" to believe anything other than the truth, and the truth is that Zionism is a wholly secular ideology with no support in rabbinic Jewish tradition before the 19th century. This will not change no matter how loudly and how often some "Modern Orthodox" Jews say otherwise. As for any group of people being "good," I tend to agree with my Solzhenitsyn that the "line between good and evil passes not through states, nor between political parties either - but right through every human heart."

<<So I take it you're moving then?

I won't play this game, Jennifer. The Americas are a lot further along in the process of conquest and subjugation than is Palestine/Israel, and what is feasible in one case may not be so in the other. In any case, I never said that all Jews should leave Palestine, or that the State of Israel should be entirely dismantled (though some Jews have). I have also never besought another nation to spend a great deal of tax-money defending my nation's sad treatment of its indigenous population, or my nations supposed "right to exist." I get particularly annoyed when I see Christians and Jews defending Israel as if modern Jews had some kind of God-given right to establish a government there. Traditional Orthodox Jews and traditional Orthodox Christians, I think, can agree that this is not so, though for different reasons. Modernists in both groups, of course, are free to disagree.

<<BTW, are you concerned about the 800,000 Arab <<Jews expelled from Muslim countries?

I am of course concerned by injustice perpetrated against anyone, anywhere, but honestly I don't hold Muslim countries to the same standard as those countries which are supposed to be "western democracies." I also don't advocate foreign aid to those countries any more than I do for Israel.

<<I tell you what...when they're allowed to go home to <<Egypt or Yemen, then the Palestinians can come <<home too.

How very gracious of you.

I'm not a Hasidic Jew so I trust what other Hasidic Jews say about their fringe groups. BTW, I never said that non-zionists were anti-semetic. Unfortunately many people who condemn Israel are anti-semites but not all. Many are just ignorant but they don't hate the Jews. Although there is often an underlying dislike of Jews amongst non-Evangelical Christians.

And yes, I understand that zionism is secular but Israel is a nation full of Jews and Jews are commanded to love and support one another. The Modern Orthodox (do even know anything about the variations of Jewish Orthodoxy?) see the founding of Israel as part of divine providence that will bring about the Messiah. Ultra-Orthodox tend to believe that the Israel must be founded by the Messiah. But both groups support Israel because they love their fellow Jews.

I support the state of Israel not because I think they have a god-given right to exist but because I love the Jewish people. I love Jewish culture and traditions. I know the unfortunate facts of Jewish history. I know that if they don't have a place to hide then many of them will suffer persecutions and might be killed.

And BTW every ethnic group that survives today 'ethnically cleansed' another ethnic group.

OK, now your babbling and babbling nonsense.

And when were we as Christians commended to fight against it at all costs? That's reducing Christianity to the social gospel. Jesus never advocated any revolution.

Still babbling I see; no one said anything about ‘commanded’ or ‘all costs.’ No one, as far as I know, on this whole forum supports social gospel. And certainly no one claimed Jesus advocated any revolution. We are Orthodox Christians in case you haven’t noticed where you are posting. Are you capable of debate without resorting to straw man tactics?

BTW, it's really easy for you to say that the Jews "deserve" what was stolen from them without actually doing anything about it.

I hope you are not talking to me because you know absolutely zero about what I am doing about anything.