In order to compensate for the 10 787s leased by KLM, AF decided to bump up the number of A350 options so Boeing wouldn't be seen as "winning" this order - not my saying, it is in the French ( En augmentant le nombre d'Airbus commandés, Air France-KLM évite que Boeing puisse apparaître comme le gagnant de la commande.)

The CEO is on record saying the following about the political pressure to favor Airbus: "We listened to it, heard what was said, but I feel it really didn't influence our decision"

Quoting n1786b (Thread starter):The CEO is on record saying the following about the political pressure to favor Airbus: "We listened to it, heard what was said, but I feel it really didn't influence our decision"

With such a vast 777 fleet, I dont think anyone can accuse AF of not buying the aircraft that best suits their needs.

Quoting U2380 (Reply 6):How dare they! In a time when they should be supporting European workers, AF is stabbing us in the back...

I don't recall that being a talking point re: the AA order. It is, however, a major factor in the EU, and AF/KLM admitted as such. Every time AF chooses non-Airbus products, they lose political goodwill. And political goodwill is a valuable commodity. This is the main reason that all major flag carriers in the EU choose A320s. They planes are too similar to the 737NG to make it worth fighting over politically. KL was the only legacy holdout (maybe as political payback for Fokker being allowed to die by EU decision makers in favor of Airbus), but expect them to take the NEO as well now that AF is involved.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7):This is the main reason that all major flag carriers in the EU choose A320s. They planes are too similar to the 737NG to make it worth fighting over politically. KL was the only legacy holdout (maybe as political payback for Fokker being allowed to die by EU decision makers in favor of Airbus), but expect them to take the NEO as well now that AF is involved.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7): don't recall that being a talking point re: the AA order. It is, however, a major factor in the EU, and AF/KLM admitted as such. Every time AF chooses non-Airbus products, they lose political goodwill. And political goodwill is a valuable commodity. This is the main reason that all major flag carriers in the EU choose A320s. They planes are too similar to the 737NG to make it worth fighting over politically. KL was the only legacy holdout (maybe as political payback for Fokker being allowed to die by EU decision makers in favor of Airbus), but expect them to take the NEO as well now that AF is involved.

Though partly right,

I assume this happens in North America too. Beside AA, Virgin, Hawaiin, US Airways, Air Canada and JetBlue, no airlines order Airbus products (Delta got them from NW but I do not expect them to order Airbus planes). So United, Delta, Southwest, Allegiant, Alaska are the only Airbus operators. Airbus wide body operators in North America? Delta (they got them from NW), US, Hawaian and Air Canada. That's it..... How many long haul planes made by Boeing are flown by European airlines?? Many more than Airbus widebodies fly in North America. Subjectif!

The whole economy in the Netherlands relies on the US. If there will happen something annoying to the American economy the Dutch stock exchange plunges deeper than any other stock exchange. KLM will do like any other Dutch business: go the US first (because of the billateral agreements). Other countries rely more at neighbouring countries. Did you know that all the money that is earned within the Eurozone 80% is earned by 'domestic' trade? Like in the US, isn't it?

The A320 might be a good option if you operate with a hub and spoke system. They have a palletised underbelly which is very useful when you have transfering passengers. It also has more comfort than the B737NG and about the same legs as the B737NG. I think you must agree, don't you?

I would note, I'm not excited about the current A350-1000. Not at all; if I were more excited about the latest version of the A350-1000, I would rule out GE. I am excited about the A359 and there should be enough of a market here for GE. Until I see an official engine order, I will suspect GE is doing a 'dark horse' here.

Quoting U2380 (Reply 10):There was defiantly a lot of: 'AA are traitors and are putting American workers out of jobs' or words to that effect.

Define "a lot". Two or three members don't make "a lot".

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 14):I assume this happens in North America too. Beside AA, Virgin, Hawaiin, US Airways, Air Canada and JetBlue, no airlines order Airbus products (Delta got them from NW but I do not expect them to order Airbus planes).

Spirit? Frontier? As for United, they have plenty of Airbus planes in their fleet so to say "never" or "doesn't" would seem somewhat gratuitous. Ditto Delta.

Not sure what this part was supposed to mean, as United and Delta are Airbus operators but the others aren't.

Maybe it'd be good to list the carriers that aren't Airbus operators in North America. While not definitive nor all-inclusive:

Alaska, Southwest, Allegiant, WestJet....probably a few of the Mexican carriers and some smaller US operators. The rest seem to order Airbus [too]. Discounting Delta would seem premature, whether you'd like to ignore NW or not. I fully expect them to order from both manufacturers moving forward.

My best friend ( ) Ikramerica may not have been at all polite, as is his prerogative, when he called the A350-800 " a dog". It is a concern that many are opting away from it. And no order from AF. Pity.

Equally worrying is the A350-1000. No new sales yet, nothing from AF. Though whether they need to replace their 77Ws just yet could be a factor.

As is typical with our French friends, they are patriotic when it suits. Glad it suited for them to get a few Airbus widebodies. Not a bad day. Could have been worse.

Curious why... do you think it's poorly conceived (not enough benefit compared to the 77W or future 777 derivatives), or do you think it's going to be difficult or impossible to execute as planned?

Quoting U2380 (Reply 19):Back on topic. Where does this leave the AF long haul fleet once all their new orders are delivered?

AF: 788, 359, 77W, 388KL: 788, 333, 789 (?), 77W

Not sure how long the 332s will stick around at either airline; they could well also remain in the fleet.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 22):My best friend ( ) Ikramerica may not have been at all polite, as is his prerogative, when he called the A350-800 " a dog"

It is a dog, and I don't think I'm being that rude by saying it. It's heavier than the 789, with significantly less cargo capacity, less passenger capacity (assuming 9Y), and only a bit more range. Its only advantage over the 789 is in ULH ops, or for an operator that has a large number of 359s and needs only a few smaller widebodies.

But the 35J seems to me like it should be much better. I'm sort of mystified by the low sales.

25 EPA001
: I believe they will come in time as soon as the specs are finally firmed up. With an EIS in 2017 and the first two production years sold out, there i

26 PlymSpotter
: If true, this will mean the last MD-11s are not retired until the 2017/2018 mark. However I was more under the impression that the A330-300s would be

27 scbriml
: I disagree. There were plenty (including Boeing themselves) who expected the 787 to take the lion's share of this order. No word from either OEM, so

28 cosmofly
: It is becoming boring that airliners are always splitting the order. So there is no more direct competitions and airliners always find the best model

29 flymia
: There was not much. It was more Boeing sucked at their job and blew it big time. It was embarassing to US Aviation that Boeing messed this up so much

30 lightsaber
: I think it is the horse by commitee. It doesn't serve any one airline particularly well. The 'break' in engine commonality isn't horrid (a la 77W), b

31 notaxonrotax
: Really, a dog?? You are a registered fan-boy, but you don't have to show it in every post. KLM had their mind set on the 787 before your so-called "d

32 QFA787380
: Is it known when the non-leased 787s will EIS? I'm surprised they didn't get 359 slots before 2018, as I would have thought AF would have been able to

33 Stitch
: Perhaps not a "dog", but some A350-800 customers have cancelled (Bangkok Air this week), others have converted some or all of their A350-800 orders t

34 gigneil
: Are you being sarcastic? Most of the major North American operators fly Airbus types. NS

35 Viscount724
: US Airways operates more Airbus aircraft than any other airline in the world.

36 EPA001
: Especially since KLM already signed up for the later cancelled RBS lease deal on B787's. I guess after that Boeing had more to loose here then Airbus

37 col
: Well done to Airbus and Boeing, these frames will make up for the cancellations this year. Will be interesting to see what Airbus do with the 358, cou

38 RayChuang
: I don't think AF will order the A350-1000, mostly because of their substantial 777-300ER fleet. The A350-900's will primarily be used on AF's routes t

39 fxramper
: This isn't a surprise and it makes me think they did this to lure VS into Skyteam.

40 dfambro
: A different way to look at this is EU vs NA sales questions is to see how many widebodies Airbus has sold to customers on each continent, which Airbu