And one more thing, why in the world do you guys think Hoffman is a HOFer? Please, he's not even remotely close. Saying he is a HOFer does a great disservice to guys like Frank Thomas who is probably a borderline case.

Hoffman's career was just entirely too short. He didn't have his first 30 + save season until he was 27. We can say, now, that his primary career ended at 34. He is now on his long trek to retirement. Same goes for Rivera.

Rivera doesn't even have 300 saves yet. I'm not saying either one will never be in the HOF, but AS OF NOW, neither should be in.

With their limited role in baseball, they should also have a limited place in the HOF.

I wanna see sustained Gagne-like dominance over the course of several years for a reliver to be a HOF.

Josh.......Please look at this list of HOF 2B and tell me who was a power hitter. I'm not saying that Biggio is or isn't a HOF'er but you need to take the position into consideration. I would think that catcher, second base, and shortstop would be like that. The really big power hitters at those positions didn't come into play until recent times (for the most part). Here's the list:

Lofunzo wrote:Josh.......Please look at this list of HOF 2B and tell me who was a power hitter. I'm not saying that Biggio is or isn't a HOF'er but you need to take the position into consideration. I would think that catcher, second base, and shortstop would be like that. The really big power hitters at those positions didn't come into play until recent times (for the most part). Here's the list:

Hard to believe Biggio won't be in. He's a second baseman, leadoff hitter, all-around good guy and played for the same team his entire career. Voters love guys like that, and even discounting James' "little stats" I think a convincing case can be made for Biggio's induction to the hall.

However there is no way Mark Grace makes the hall, or deserves to. He was a good player for a long time, but the one thing everyone always mentions about him, that he had the most hits in the 90's, is totally meaningless. You will never hear anyone say "Player X had the most hits from 1989-1999", because it sounds silly, yet that is essentially the same thing as what Mark Grace did. He was just lucky that his best years concided with the beginning and ending of a decade, as opposed to starting in the middle of a decade and ending in another. Take into account that he is a 1st baseman and there are, gosh, at least 4-5 1st basemen I'd rather have on my team during the 90's, and it's hard to see him as a HOF-er.

The first thing everyone has on this list is at least 1 MVP (save LaJoie).

Second, everyone has a lifetime AVG of over .300 except for Morgan. Then again, Morgan won 2 World Series and was MVP twice.

Third, nearly everyone is at or above 3000 hits.

Fourth, Only two 2B have been elected to the HOF since 1937 (excluding Jackie Robinson, all respect given). They are Rod Carew and Joe Morgan. As aforementioned, Morgan has 2 MVPs, 2 World Series rings, and better numbers than Biggio. Carew won an MVP and has a AVG of .328.

Biggio has no MVPs. In fact he's never finished in the top 3 in voting in his career. He's never won a World Series. His lifetime AVG is only .287 and he only has 210 career HR. In today's "juicied" environment those aren't HOF numbers.