kikass2014 wrote: I've seen this talk before and Feige merely confirms that they are going to go ahead with a Black Widow movie.

HOWEVER it wont be slated til Phase 4 and this is AFTER Capt. Marvel, who is slated to appear as part of PHASE 3

So Carol will still officially be the FIRST Marvel female-led superhero film

Peace.

/K

Thank you... my appreciation for Marvel just went up.

Shadar

The Russo brothers hinted this weekend that Captain Marvel might appear first in Avengers Infinity War (just as Spider-Man Appeared first in Civil War). (It also sound liked they didn't mean to do so and might have been an accidental slip.)

Though that might be a bit weird as her solo movie comes about between the two Infinity War movies. So unless it's a direct tie-in to those movies, it'll be told out of sequence. Or they can swap their release dates, and move up the 2nd infinity war movie.

Honestly part of the issue is that Scarlet Johanssen from what i heard has a kinda frosty relationship with Disney. They rewrote Avengers 2 around her availibity(in fairness she was pregnant), which pissed people off. That Combined with the fact that Kevin Faige has famously said some stuff about Female Superheros means that i am not super waiting for this..

You could probabbly make this movie for fairly little money-less then say Avengers or Thor. But i am gettin the sence that Disneys current Buisness model doesn't do ta for movies-pretty much everythin on there lineup is 200 million dollar have to be blockusters.

But that said, LUCY was probally one of the most profitable movies in the last 10 years on a per dollar basis, but that...

While I'm sure some of that may be at play, I'm not convinced that is the reason (what Castor said) that we have not had a BW movie yet.

It feels like the plan Marvel has mapped out leading to Infinity War has been carefully plotted. Each movie introduces either a character (Capt. America, Thor, Iron Man) or an aspect of what makes up the Marvel Universe (The Avengers = Earth-bound; Guardians of the Galaxy = Cosmic-bound; and the soon-to-be-released Dr. Strange = Mystical-bound).

Black Widow, while she does have her fans, probably doesn't need to be explored in-depth in her own movie. She's not super-powered like Capt. Marvel for example, and imo not nearly as interesting. I think she works great as a supporting character (she has been in nearly ALL the Marvel films I think) , and there has been quite a bit of her backstory (not hers specifically) outlined in Agent Carter (season 1). I'm not sure a Black Widow movie is necessary per se.

Also if we look at the tone of the films released, each tries to embody a specific area/genre. Thor is medieval/high-fantasy; Guardians is pure space-opera; Iron Man is straight action/sci-fi, Ant-man is comedy/heist and Cap. America is espionage/political thriller. Tonally I can imagine Black Widow being similar to Capt. America (especially Winter Soldier and Civil War) i.e: a espionage/political thriller. And Black Panther has already been stated to be a geo-political thriller (if I remember right). And, going out on a limb here, I gonna guess that Capt. Marvel could be a military/action-film (ala Top Gun). Though I could be WAAAYYYY wrong on that.

So the question is, where would Black Widow fit in on the current slate/arc leading up to Infinity War? Same case could be made for Hawkeye. Fundamentally they are both spies.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, or whether it would work or not. Just looking at reasons as to why we haven't had a Black Widow movie yet, which aren't along the lines of "Marvel doesn't like Scarlet/female-superheroes".

Honestly part of the issue is that Scarlet Johanssen from what i heard has a kinda frosty relationship with Disney. They rewrote Avengers 2 around her availibity(in fairness she was pregnant), which pissed people off. That Combined with the fact that Kevin Faige has famously said some stuff about Female Superheros means that i am not super waiting for this..

You could probabbly make this movie for fairly little money-less then say Avengers or Thor. But i am gettin the sence that Disneys current Buisness model doesn't do ta for movies-pretty much everythin on there lineup is 200 million dollar have to be blockusters.

But that said, LUCY was probally one of the most profitable movies in the last 10 years on a per dollar basis, but that...

I can't speak to the Disney/Johanssen relationship, or Disney's slate for movies.

I do think you are mischaracterizing Feige. You can go back a fairly long way, with people taking Marvel to task for no female led movies and you get quotes about "we plan on it, we're just busy". And I'd argue that there really wasn't room for a Widow movie in Phase 1 or 2, and the little free room in Phase 3 is taken up by Black Panther and Captain Marvel, both of which I'd prefer over a widow movie. (And the inhumans, but it just got bumped, and frankly, it's a chess piece move like Guardians and Dr Strange are, and marvel needs a movie to occupy it's spot.)

Here's a quote from Feige from Two years ago (before the current slate was announced and before the release of Age of Ultron):

"Frankly if we do a Black Widow movie after Age of Ultron, when she’s been central in three or four movies I don’t think we’d get the quote unquote credit for it. People would say ‘She’s already a big giant superhero!’ But if we had a great idea, we’d do it... I like the idea if we’re going to do a [female lead] do a new one. Do a wholly new character, do an origin story... We’ve talked a lot about [Captain Marvel]. I think that would be very cool. "

Here he is talking about Marvel being busy -- he got a lot of flak for it, but he's actually saying they really want to do it and it makes sense. He even mentions not using bad movies to say that female led movies don't make money.

“I think it comes down to timing, which is what I’ve sort of always said, and it comes down to us being able to tell the right story. I very much believe in doing it. I very much believe that it’s unfair to say, ‘People don’t want to see movies with female heroes,’ then list five movies that were not very good, therefore, people didn’t go to the movies because they weren’t good movies, versus [because] they were female leads. And they don’t mention ‘Hunger Games,’ ‘Frozen,’ ‘Divergent.’ You can go back to ‘Kill Bill’ or ‘Aliens.’ These are all female-led movies. It can certainly be done. I hope we do it sooner rather than later.”

You can find lots of those statements and a few of ones that upset The Mary Sue crowd ,.. but those are usually wrapped around statements where he's acknowledging that a female led movie needs made ... but not just to be a female led movie, to be a good story.

And there were many reasons for this ... but Is suspect that Perlmutter's views on female led movies was one of the reasons he got yanked. One only has to look at Frozen, The Force Awakens and Rouge One to see that Disney didn't agree with him on this topic. By no means am I saying it was the ONLY reason, i'm just saying that I'm pretty sure it was one of the many reasons.

Feige does seem to have grown into the idea of a female led super hero movie ... but he's not a recent convert to the idea. And he's fairly consistently said the movies need to tell a good story FIRST (no matter which character the movie is about).

Now, he's not perfect and I do recall a few statements that really did upset people -- but they balance out with him saying things like above. I don't think we'll really know until we see Captain Marvel on screen.

I'll believe it when I see it when it comes to Marvel and a stand-alone superheroine movie. I honestly think they are waiting for the Wonder Woman movie to get released, see how it does, and then adjust their plans accordingly. Sure, Captain Marvel is on their schedule now but if WW falls flat then I could easily see them cancelling CM by saying something like "Female superheros don't sell" or some such nonsense...

I honestly think they are waiting for the Wonder Woman movie to get released, see how it does, and then adjust their plans accordingly.

Do you genuinely think that? If so, fair enough. I'm gonna go with no, they are not waiting on that. In fact, I will go so far as to say Marvel doesn't care at all what DC does. Marvel is simply crushing it at the box office (see Civil War's opening weekend, and first week total - nearly $700 million). And they have done this even with total unknown properties like Guardians of the Galaxy (who could even imagine this would be a huge success?).

Sure, Captain Marvel is on their schedule now but if WW falls flat then I could easily see them cancelling CM by saying something like "Female superheros don't sell" or some such nonsense...

Again, I'm gonna go with no on this too. Capt. Marvel was announced (along with the WHOLE Phase 3 road map) in Oct 2014. And like I posited above, Phase 3 has been carefully planned and Capt. Marvel is a part of those plans. Now one could say that the movie has already been moved once, but I would argue that this was due to incredible circumstances - Spiderman was joining the MCU. So something had to give and everything got jigged a little.

One could also say that the Inhumans movie has fallen off the schedule and that was on the Phase 3 timetable, why can't Capt. Marvel? Personally I would counter this argument with two points - 1) Inhumans is a MUCH less known property then Capt. Marvel (especially the Carol Danvers incarnation); and 2) the Inhumans are being dealt with in the series Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. This arguably allows the Inhuman story to grow over a longer period of time, and is less risky being on a smaller scale. Who knows, maybe Marvel, by that time, may have struck a deal to get Fantastic Four back, thus rendering the need for a "family"-based franchise moot. /shrug

Thus, with all that said, with Spiderman joining the MCU, along with the success of Ant-Man prompting the sequel Ant-Man and the Wasp, something had to give in the timeline (one can only release a certain amount of movies a year after all).

Now with all those points, can one really see Marvel CANCELLING Capt. Marvel based on how well Wonder Woman does? Especially in light of the fact that a lead actress and director are VERY close to being announced (a stage Inhumans never came close too if I remember right).

Peace.

/K

P.S. Like someone mentioned, the Russo's (the chief architects of the MCU, along with Feige and Nate Moore I think) were planning on introducing her in Infinity War Part 1, but felt it better to hold off and debut her in her own movie. That should say something about the chances of Capt. Marvel.

I honestly think they are waiting for the Wonder Woman movie to get released, see how it does, and then adjust their plans accordingly.

Do you genuinely think that? If so, fair enough. I'm gonna go with no, they are not waiting on that. In fact, I will go so far as to say Marvel doesn't care at all what DC does. Marvel is simply crushing it at the box office (see Civil War's opening weekend, and first week total - nearly $700 million). And they have done this even with total unknown properties like Guardians of the Galaxy (who could even imagine this would be a huge success?).

Sure, Captain Marvel is on their schedule now but if WW falls flat then I could easily see them cancelling CM by saying something like "Female superheros don't sell" or some such nonsense...

Again, I'm gonna go with no on this too. Capt. Marvel was announced (along with the WHOLE Phase 3 road map) in Oct 2014. And like I posited above, Phase 3 has been carefully planned and Capt. Marvel is a part of those plans. Now one could say that the movie has already been moved once, but I would argue that this was due to incredible circumstances - Spiderman was joining the MCU. So something had to give and everything got jigged a little.

One could also say that the Inhumans movie has fallen off the schedule and that was on the Phase 3 timetable, why can't Capt. Marvel? Personally I would counter this argument with two points - 1) Inhumans is a MUCH less known property then Capt. Marvel (especially the Carol Danvers incarnation); and 2) the Inhumans are being dealt with in the series Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. This arguably allows the Inhuman story to grow over a longer period of time, and is less risky being on a smaller scale. Who knows, maybe Marvel, by that time, may have struck a deal to get Fantastic Four back, thus rendering the need for a "family"-based franchise moot. /shrug

Thus, with all that said, with Spiderman joining the MCU, along with the success of Ant-Man prompting the sequel Ant-Man and the Wasp, something had to give in the timeline (one can only release a certain amount of movies a year after all).

Now with all those points, can one really see Marvel CANCELLING Capt. Marvel based on how well Wonder Woman does? Especially in light of the fact that a lead actress and director are VERY close to being announced (a stage Inhumans never came close too if I remember right).

Peace.

/K

P.S. Like someone mentioned, the Russo's (the chief architects of the MCU, along with Feige and Nate Moore I think) were planning on introducing her in Infinity War Part 1, but felt it better to hold off and debut her in her own movie. That should say something about the chances of Capt. Marvel.

Yes, I do think Marvel is curious about how WW is going to perform. Don't you think they might be a bit gun shy about introducing a superheroine in her own movie? I mean, why haven't they already? What possible reason could they give for not introducing Captain Marvel by now? She is the most powerful woman in the Marvel universe and freakin' Ant Man and Dr. Strange get their movies before her? Huh?

Like I said, I will wait and see. I sincerely hope both BW and CM get their own movies but Marvel's track record has not been great so far when it comes to stand-alone superheroines (i.e. there isn't one).

Not at all I feel I posted genuine points which can be corroborated with a little thinking and research It is you that keeps insinuating that I have some "bias". I have stated many, MANY times, that I like comics period. I HATE bad movies. Not my fault Marvel seems to be making better films then DC (oh and this is not just my opinion, but supported by box office AND critics).

Yes, I do think Marvel is curious about how WW is going to perform. Don't you think they might be a bit gun shy about introducing a superheroine in her own movie? I mean, why haven't they already?

Like I said, things at Marvel seem to be carefully planned. As I said, (see my earlier post) there is careful consideration to who is released, based on what kind of film they are making, and what they want to introduce in the MCU. Where would Capt. Marvel have featured thus far? Is she a bigger draw then Capt. America, Iron Man, or Thor? (Yes film is a business as well as an art)

What possible reason could they give for not introducing Captain Marvel by now? She is the most powerful woman in the Marvel universe and freakin' Ant Man and Dr. Strange get their movies before her? Huh?

See my post above regarding what films and my argument as to why those films were released.

Like I said, I will wait and see. I sincerely hope both BW and CM get their own movies but Marvel's track record has not been great so far when it comes to stand-alone superheroines (i.e. there isn't one).

Not at all I feel I posted genuine points which can be corroborated with a little thinking and research It is you that keeps insinuating that I have some "bias". I have stated many, MANY times, that I like comics period. I HATE bad movies. Not my fault Marvel seems to be making better films then DC (oh and this is not just my opinion, but supported by box office AND critics).

Yeah, your not biased at all with statements like that. No sirreeee. No bias there.

Like I said, things at Marvel seem to be carefully planned. As I said, (see my earlier post) there is careful consideration to who is released, based on what kind of film they are making, and what they want to introduce in the MCU. Where would Capt. Marvel have featured thus far? Is she a bigger draw then Capt. America, Iron Man, or Thor? (Yes film is a business as well as an art)

If you will read below, I didn't say a word about Capt. America, Iron Man, or Thor. I specifically asked why Ant Man and Dr. Strange got movies before her? The clue is in your statement above when you say "...what they want to introduce in the MCU." I guess a bunch of white guys sitting in a room have no desire to make movie about a woman superhero. Like I said before, I'll believe it when it actually happens, which I really hope it does.

What possible reason could they give for not introducing Captain Marvel by now? She is the most powerful woman in the Marvel universe and freakin' Ant Man and Dr. Strange get their movies before her? Huh?

Neither has DC. Wonder Woman is not released yet.

It's further along than the Captain Marvel or Black Widow movie. Even you have to admit that, don't you?

Ok here we go again (not that I have anything against a good dialogue )

Yeah, your not biased at all with statements like that. No sirreeee. No bias there.

This is NOT bias as this is not just my opinion, but FACT. I am sorry that YOU personally, judging by what you imply, think that DC makes better films then Marvel, but the general consensus is that they don't. FACT. So how can there be bias in my statement that you quoted?

I specifically asked why Ant Man and Dr. Strange got movies before her? The clue is in your statement above when you say "...what they want to introduce in the MCU." I guess a bunch of white guys sitting in a room have no desire to make movie about a woman superhero.

No, this is not a SJW issue. There is no conspiracy to keep women down, or that they are not equal, etc, etc. The simple FACT is choices have to made. And the people making these choices decided that a) they wanted to make a light-hearted heist movie; and b) introduce the mystical side of the MCU. Thus, we got Ant-Man and Doctor Strange. Sorry if that isn't the choice you would have made, maybe Capt. Marvel would have been the FIRST movie you would have made if you were in charge. But you are not. However, to imply that because "a bunch of white guys sitting in a room have no desire to make movie about a woman superhero." is the reason that Ant-Man and Dr. Strange got made before Capt. Marvel is a little ridiculous.

It's further along than the Captain Marvel or Black Widow movie. Even you have to admit that, don't you?

In my most recent She Hulk chapter theres a scene where she talks with Bruce Banner and he suggests "isn't there a Single Father you have to protect, and addorable little moppit for you to slowly melt your cold exterior"....which is kinda what i expect to see from the plot of this one. But that can be intresting.

Black Widdow in her Five feature appearences is a character who is both very highly defined and kinda vauge. We don't have to know she is a manipulative super spy with a cold exterior and cynical philosphy-we have more or less sceen it for the last 6 years-But its also a character who has never really gotten a true emotional arc. Avengers 2 was the closet and that felt incredibly rushed, So they could do incredible things if theydo it.

So its a female James Bond Movie-i would love to see that. In my list of things i would like to see thats up there. Were getting female superhero movies-at least 2, i could stand to see that. I mean there are plenty of movies not everything has to be Superbrick Girlpower.

I do think marvel has gotten very good at doing the Black Widdow style action sequence-in someways its one of the better things they do in most of there movies. There is something to how Johansonen Plays Vulnerability as an act that can be discarded when it isn't useful, that is kinda neat.

And Marvel at its best has a lighteness and playfullness. Part of the above joke from she hulk is that MCU is a place where you can make fun a little bit of the cliches involved even if they do indulge in them to a degee. And that is something i frequently enjoy.

Easy. Ant-man was slated at the beginning. Marvel wanted a wildcard and a movie that they could learn what they were doing w/o fear. IF it failed, it didn't ruin an important character for the MCU. (It was bumped to Phase 2 by scheduling problems with Edgar Wright).

Dr. Strange is a strategic move that opens up the mystical universe of marvel, just like GoG opened up the Cosmic Marvel for stories. Captain Marvel doesn't do that. Dr. Strange also (hopefully) will have a different feel to it than the other super-hero movies.

Marvel has been on a kick for the last 15 years to make Captain Marvel a vital part of the MCU -- and it has been on purpose. They even changed her name to help that goal along. She's now important enough that getting her movie made does't seem like a SJW thing, but a "tell a good story about an important character thing". But Strange has been there from the beginning and has always been a major character.

SO yeah, he deserves a movie first and that's not counting the strategy part of the discussion. (I think even Civil War mentions this in passing as Wanda wonders about where she could go for training ... in the comics she trains with Agatha Harkness, a witch. )

I just hope I get Dikto-like magic on screen.

I honestly don't know what movie I'd have dropped to make Captain Marvel earlier other than Ant-Man (and thus Ant-Man and the Wasp), and i've already said why I think it got on the slate.

In some ways Captain Marvel relies upon GoG, she relies upon Kree for her origin, so it helps to have them already in the MCU. The could have made the movie before GoG ... but she'd not have done as good a job opening up the Cosmic Marvel.

Wait a minute, am I still on Superwomenmania.com? Let me scroll to the top of the page and check...

Yes, that is what the title bar says. Then how come I am reading comments from people defending Marvel's reluctance to do a solo superheroine movie? I thought we were all about promoting superheroines here. Guess not for some of us.

The simple fact is that Marvel could have done a solo superheroine movie by now if they wanted to. There were rumors as far back as the original Avengers movie that she would be in there. If you remember the fighter pilot that took off from the Helicarrier with the Nuke? I remember hearing that Joss Whedon wanted to make the pilot Carol Danvers but was nixed by the studio. Then the original script for Age of Ultron had Carol Danvers in there also but was nixed when they got the rights to share Spider-Man with Sony and her solo got bumped.

jdrock24 wrote: Wait a minute, am I still on Superwomenmania.com? Let me scroll to the top of the page and check...

Yes, that is what the title bar says. Then how come I am reading comments from people defending Marvel's reluctance to do a solo superheroine movie? I thought we were all about promoting superheroines here. Guess not for some of us.

The simple fact is that Marvel could have done a solo superheroine movie by now if they wanted to. There were rumors as far back as the original Avengers movie that she would be in there. If you remember the fighter pilot that took off from the Helicarrier with the Nuke? I remember hearing that Joss Whedon wanted to make the pilot Carol Danvers but was nixed by the studio. Then the original script for Age of Ultron had Carol Danvers in there also but was nixed when they got the rights to share Spider-Man with Sony and her solo got bumped.

I think that the issue is more upstream: historically the Marvel Comics lacked a good female solo character, not for lack of trying. Most of their leading historical leading ladies (Storm, Sue, Jean, She-Hulk) are more well known as part of a team, rather than their solo effort. Hencefort, I think, the studios are reluctant to commit to characters that didn't work well historically, but the success of Guardians of the Galaxy opened up many new options and, I hope, a second chance for many character. As for Carol being in any of the Avengers movie I can see the logic behind nixing both appearences: in the first having her dropping the nuke might have tainted an eventual second appearence (not for me, but this is executive thinking), for the second I guess that the problem was that didn't have a casting choice yet, making difficult to put her on screen, given that they're trying to stay as consistent as possible.
Given that I'm all for a good superheroine movie, but the operative word being good. I'd much prefer ten great movies with a host of supergirls in supporting roles, than a single half-assed effort that would harm the genre to no end.

(formerly Anon, still Librarian)

"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" ("Gentleman" John Marcone)

Wait a minute, am I still on Superwomenmania.com? Let me scroll to the top of the page and check... Yes, that is what the title bar says.

Actually, the web site is Superwomenmania.com. The thread title and topic is Black Widow.

Then how come I am reading comments from people defending Marvel's reluctance to do a solo superheroine movie?

No, see you are falling into the same pattern you have done previously. You are not seeing the point, only what you WANT the point to be.

The thread was about Black Widow and her solo movie. But because you are “Mr. DC” you raise the “Wonder Woman” banner and imply that somehow Marvel isn’t brave enough to release a female superhero movie UNTIL DC release Wonder Woman. No one mentioned DC or Wonder Woman until you did.

It was since pointed out to you that there are many reasons as to why Black Widow (and by extension Capt. Marvel) have not been released, but of course, none of those are the reasons. It is bad sexist Marvel and those evil white males with their oppressive agenda.

The simple fact is that Marvel could have done a solo superheroine movie by now if they wanted to.

WRONG! This is not a simple fact. As outlined in the many points listed in this thread, there is rhyme and reason as to WHAT films get released and WHY from Marvel.

That isn’t DC and Crap-Snyder who shoehorn all and everything into a bloated piece of garbage and release it.

But of course those points, and the logic of them, are ignored by you.

There were rumors as far back as the original Avengers movie that she would be in there. If you remember the fighter pilot that took off from the Helicarrier with the Nuke? I remember hearing that Joss Whedon wanted to make the pilot Carol Danvers but was nixed by the studio.

So what? Scripts change all the time. And tbh, what the hell would that have accomplished? A fighter pilot walks to a plane and says “I’m Carol Danvers”? That’s it? That’s the introduction you want for Capt. Marvel??

Then the original script for Age of Ultron had Carol Danvers in there also but was nixed when they got the rights to share Spider-Man with Sony and her solo got bumped.

Again, so what? Scripts change all the time. Maybe the studio felt it wasn’t the right place or way to introduce the character. With all the criticism that AoU got for being overstuffed, you really think they should have shoehorned ANOTHER character into the mix?

I thought we were all about promoting superheroines here. Guess not for some of us.

You really think Marvel gives a fig about what we say on this site about female superheroes in the multi-BILLION dollar arena they work in???

Yes we promote works of fiction by our members, share and support producers of works that cater to our fetish/fantasy. And in that capacity sir, I am a hearty supporter and promoter, purchasing many (if not all in some cases) of their works.

So to imply otherwise is quite simply insulting.

JD you are the very definition of a fan boy. You simply cannot accept that the horse you back is second-best.

From your virulent defence of Batman Vs. Superman, to your suggestion that MARVEL is waiting for WONDER WOMAN to be released so that they can make Capt. Marvel, demonstrates you have no understanding or acceptance of any reason except your own.

In your world, of course Marvel is waiting for DC’s Wonder Woman to be released, because we all know DC make stellar comic-book movies (this is backed up by nothing by the way, just your say so).

In your world, of course MARVEL is waiting to see if WONDER WOMAN is a success before they make Capt. Marvel. And if it bombs, of course Marvel aren’t going to make Capt. Marvel and say “Look! Female superheroes don’t work” (despite Marvel having BILLIONS in the bank, multiple $1 BILLION+ movies, BAGS of good-will among the general audience, and looking to tap into the female market ((the one market they haven’t yet)), they are going to let WONDER WOMAN dictate whether they proceed on taking a nominal risk).

How stupid of me to point out that there are MANY other reasons why they have not made Capt. Marvel yet.

Tell me, when Batman VS Superman TANKED SPECTACULARLY, do you think Marvel, for a second, thought “Er guys, you know what. This film that we have Civil War, it’s gonna bomb. People don’t like friends fighting. Should we release it now?”

Of course they didn’t. They released it, simply smashed it at the box office, and are laughing all the way to the bank. Why? Because they CARE about what they make and thus make GOOD movies.