I went to Weather Underground (wunderground.com) and my browser asked if Iwanted to share my location with the website. I said yes and it located mein San Francisco, though I am using a 12 year old desktop computer with nogeolocation hardware on it.

What's even odder was that on a mapping website the map located me to withintwo blocks of where I live. There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer,either. It's Ethernet only. And yet my Comcast IP usually indicates SantaClara when I look it up, or if it does say SF, then it locates to the FolsomStreet intertie. How to the map and the Wunderground websites know?

I'm assuming that some cookies have been dropped somewhere, but when Iturned off and deleted cookies on all my browsers the neighborhood mappingwas still able to locate me within 2 blocks of my address. And what's more,if random webpages can find me or nearly find me, there must be some kind ofco-operation in the web world to make this happen, and yet web developerscan't even agree on which version of HTML to use!

I'm stymied. Ideas anyone?

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Post by David KayeI went to Weather Underground (wunderground.com) and my browser asked if Iwanted to share my location with the website. I said yes and it located mein San Francisco, though I am using a 12 year old desktop computer with nogeolocation hardware on it.

HTML5 does geolocation.<http://www.webcodegeeks.com/html5/html5-geolocation-example-weather-widget-demo/>Your 12 year old computah is probably running XP, which does supportbrowsers that support HTML5.

Post by David KayeWhat's even odder was that on a mapping website the map located me to withintwo blocks of where I live.

The NSA knows where you're hiding. Google does it by IP address (andwi-fi SSID if available). I couldn't find much on accuracy andmethodology, but reading between the lines, my guess(tm) is that theyping your IP address from various servers and triangulate using thedelays.

This is what's perplexing. Does Google have some kind of relationship withComcast, allowing them to get my address, or at least my neighborhood fromIP assignments? Also, in the time I've lived here I've changed modems acouple times and Comcast's DHCP has assigned other IPs when I've changed.Also, one day when we had a 3-hour power failure going back online gave us adifferent IP.

Yeah, I can understand getting location from SSID and MAC addresses, but I'mgetting this location info without using wi-fi.

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This is what's perplexing. Does Google have some kind of relationship withComcast, allowing them to get my address, or at least my neighborhood fromIP assignments? Also, in the time I've lived here I've changed modems acouple times and Comcast's DHCP has assigned other IPs when I've changed.Also, one day when we had a 3-hour power failure going back online gave us adifferent IP.

Google doesn't need to involve Comcast. Getting your IP address isfairly trivial if you have a program on your machine that talks to aGoogle server. The obvious one is the Google Account, which I use toaccess Gmail email, Google Apps, Google Drive, etc. Also, the browsercould be looking at a page that uses Google Analytics or somethingthat requires a Google based lookup (such as displaying anadvertisement), and you've accessed a Google server. I suspect it'snow considered standard practice for every connection to Google tograb as much information about you that CGI, Javascript, and Java canprovide, all of which deliver your IP address. Basically, it'sdifficult to use any computer that doesn't touch a Google server atsome point.

What your browser discloses:<http://mybrowserinfo.com/detail.asp>Your IP address is at the top of the list.

Firefox lets you turn geolocation off for their browser:In the URL bar, type about:configType geo.enabledDouble click on the geo.enabled preferenceLocation-Aware Browsing is now disabled

Note that it uses Javascript. I'm not sure if turning off Javascriptwill cause it to fumble.<https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/>

You can see if enable/disable works for Firefox at:<https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/examples/map-geolocation>If you DON'T see a map, geolocation is turned off for that particularsite.

While it doesn't show if your browser hits Google ads or features, youcan see if your browser has looked at a Google site with:<https://history.google.com/history/>or just click the "clock" icon at the top of the page for history.

Google's privacy policy specifically allows them to collect your IPaddress for location information:<http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/>Location informationWhen you use Google services, we may collect and processinformation about your actual location. We use varioustechnologies to determine location, including IP address, GPS,and other sensors that may, for example, provide Googlewith information on nearby devices, Wi-Fi access points andcell towers.

Post by David KayeYeah, I can understand getting location from SSID and MAC addresses, but I'mgetting this location info without using wi-fi.

Once Google has your IP address, the rest is triangulation by pinglatency. Since they're measuring latency to your router, not yourclient computah, it doesn't change much, unless you move the router.So, it's not tracking your location. It's tracking the location ofyour router. As an experiment, you might want to try moving yourComcast router to someone elses location that has cable. Two routerson the same coax segment are not a problem and won't corrupt anything.Then, see if your location has moved (or how long it takes to move).

Assuming they do use some form of ping to refine the location data, Idon't see how they do it if ICMP ping is turned off in the router. Myguess(tm) is that it's done backwards, where the geolocation API pingsvarious Google servers, and uses that information for triangulation.

Post by Jeff LiebermannGoogle doesn't need to involve Comcast. Getting your IP address isfairly trivial if you have a program on your machine that talks to aGoogle server. The obvious one is the Google Account, which I use toaccess Gmail email, Google Apps, Google Drive, etc. Also, the browsercould be looking at a page that uses Google Analytics or somethingthat requires a Google based lookup (such as displaying anadvertisement), and you've accessed a Google server. I suspect it'snow considered standard practice for every connection to Google tograb as much information about you that CGI, Javascript, and Java canprovide, all of which deliver your IP address. Basically, it'sdifficult to use any computer that doesn't touch a Google server atsome point.

Don't ya just love the Goggle monster? They want to knowall about you, yet when the chairman has data about him madepublic he gets grumpy.

Post by Jeff LiebermannGoogle doesn't need to involve Comcast. Getting your IP address isfairly trivial if you have a program on your machine that talks to aGoogle server. The obvious one is the Google Account, which I use toaccess Gmail email, Google Apps, Google Drive, etc.

I have a Google account but the info in it is bogus because I don't trustGoogle. I don't use the account for anything but to access a couplefeatures; I certainly don't use it for email.

---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.http://www.avast.com

Post by Jeff LiebermannGoogle doesn't need to involve Comcast. Getting your IP address isfairly trivial if you have a program on your machine that talks to aGoogle server. The obvious one is the Google Account, which I use toaccess Gmail email, Google Apps, Google Drive, etc.

I have a Google account but the info in it is bogus because I don't trustGoogle. I don't use the account for anything but to access a couplefeatures; I certainly don't use it for email.---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.http://www.avast.com

Being an Android developer Google knows all about me anyway so it doesn't matter. And I was at Google back in February.

This is what's perplexing. Does Google have some kind of relationship withComcast, allowing them to get my address, or at least my neighborhood fromIP assignments? Also, in the time I've lived here I've changed modems acouple times and Comcast's DHCP has assigned other IPs when I've changed.Also, one day when we had a 3-hour power failure going back online gave us adifferent IP.

Google doesn't need to involve Comcast. Getting your IP address isfairly trivial if you have a program on your machine that talks to aGoogle server. The obvious one is the Google Account, which I use toaccess Gmail email, Google Apps, Google Drive, etc. Also, the browsercould be looking at a page that uses Google Analytics or somethingthat requires a Google based lookup (such as displaying anadvertisement), and you've accessed a Google server. I suspect it'snow considered standard practice for every connection to Google tograb as much information about you that CGI, Javascript, and Java canprovide, all of which deliver your IP address. Basically, it'sdifficult to use any computer that doesn't touch a Google server atsome point.<http://mybrowserinfo.com/detail.asp>Your IP address is at the top of the list.In the URL bar, type about:configType geo.enabledDouble click on the geo.enabled preferenceLocation-Aware Browsing is now disabledNote that it uses Javascript. I'm not sure if turning off Javascriptwill cause it to fumble.<https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/><https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/examples/map-geolocation>If you DON'T see a map, geolocation is turned off for that particularsite.While it doesn't show if your browser hits Google ads or features, you<https://history.google.com/history/>or just click the "clock" icon at the top of the page for history.Google's privacy policy specifically allows them to collect your IP<http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/>Location informationWhen you use Google services, we may collect and processinformation about your actual location. We use varioustechnologies to determine location, including IP address, GPS,and other sensors that may, for example, provide Googlewith information on nearby devices, Wi-Fi access points andcell towers.

Post by David KayeYeah, I can understand getting location from SSID and MAC addresses, but I'mgetting this location info without using wi-fi.

Once Google has your IP address, the rest is triangulation by pinglatency. Since they're measuring latency to your router, not yourclient computah, it doesn't change much, unless you move the router.So, it's not tracking your location. It's tracking the location ofyour router. As an experiment, you might want to try moving yourComcast router to someone elses location that has cable. Two routerson the same coax segment are not a problem and won't corrupt anything.Then, see if your location has moved (or how long it takes to move).

There is no such thing as triangulation by ping latency across routers.It only works for line-of sight communications, like WiFi and cellular.

Google is geo-tagging WiFi access points using Android cell phones.It's in the TOS when you use Google Location Services.

Post by Jeff LiebermannAssuming they do use some form of ping to refine the location data, Idon't see how they do it if ICMP ping is turned off in the router. Myguess(tm) is that it's done backwards, where the geolocation API pingsvarious Google servers, and uses that information for triangulation.

--I will not see posts from astraweb, theremailer, dizum, or googlebecause they host Usenet flooders.

Post by Kevin McMurtrieThere is no such thing as triangulation by ping latency across routers.It only works for line-of sight communications, like WiFi and cellular.

You may be right that Google isn't using ping triangulation. I reallydon't know and will admit that I'm guessing.

Their Geolocation thing puts my Ben Lomond house in Soquel, and myoffice in Santa Cruz in Pentaluma. If I query the other Geolocationservices, I get Scotts Valley, Boulder Creek, Campbell, PortolaValley, and Santa Cruz (which is correct). So much for accuracy. Tosee the mess, try my static IP of 50.79.215.121 in:<http://www.iplocation.net>

In the distant past, I worked on a project to refine Geolocation usingICMP ping. It failed because most routers now block ICMP echo toeliminate IP reflection DoS attacks, because installing a client sideprogram to provide the necessary pings was deemed unacceptable, andthat arping was deemed politically incorrect. Hint:<http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/P/ping_triangulation.html>

As for only working in a straight line, that's true except that aroute can be a series of straight lines, forming a curve. If you knowthe geogrphic locations of the key ISP's, and you know the averagelatency between them using traceroute, I can produce a tolerablyaccurate location for any connection. Sure, there are plenty of errorsources, but overall, it's not too horrible.

Post by Kevin McMurtrieGoogle is geo-tagging WiFi access points using Android cell phones.It's in the TOS when you use Google Location Services.

Sure, but David Kaye's original question noted that Wi-Fi was notinvolved."There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer, either. It'sEthernet only."

Post by Jeff LiebermannIf I query the other Geolocationservices, I get Scotts Valley, Boulder Creek, Campbell, PortolaValley, and Santa Cruz (which is correct). So much for accuracy. To<http://www.iplocation.net>

Heh...my address puts me in the city of Folsom.

---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.http://www.avast.com

If you think that they're tracking the MAC address of the router, thatwould be difficult. Remote MAC addresses are not revealed by any ofthe Javascript, CGI, HTML5, etc tools that I could find. Many userstransfer their PC's MAC address to the router WAN port in order todeal with ancient authentication schemes. The originating MAC addressis stripped off by bridges, switches and router and cannot be sniffedon the opposite side. The only way I would guess Google might obtainthe local MAC address is by having the browser supply it to Googleafter perhaps running arp -a or something similar.

shudder. Who is pinging? No driveby wifi can ping my addresses.Ping latency from me to any number of servers is not helpful, except maybeto detect my quadrant of the state, if that.

My mistake. I was guessing how Google might have refined David Kaye'slocation without using wi-fi and speculated that it could be done withping. I did some work with that 20 years ago, and know that it can bedone. However, I didn't make it clear that this was my guess, notsome kind of inside information. Sorry(tm).

I have proven that, when I moved. I left the cable modem behind, but tookmy router, which was in the wrong place until I used Google Maps on myphone.

Nice test. Thanks.

Post by d***@90.usenet.us.comNote: The geolocation doesn't work when I am connected to my VPN.I added a route to cdn.mozilla.net outside of my VPN, and it worked inChrome, but still not in Firefox.

For geolocation to work inside any browser, you need to first giveGoogle permission to use your location information. It's usually adialog that appears when you first connect to a site that requestsyour location. If you said "allow" in Chrome, but "don't allow" inFirefox, that would explain the difference.<https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/geolocation/>See: "How do I undo a permission granted to a site"?I have mine set to "Use Default" except I can't find where to set thedefault in Firefox.

Also, I have a suspicion that add-ons like this:<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/geolocater/>might be responsible for some of the erronious geolocation returns.

I misspoke that no one cares about the IP address. If nothing else isavailable, they use that, and they want fast returns.But, I think most people get supsiciously better location results thanip2location.com delivers from your IP address. My home router is located20 miles away by IP address.

Post by Jeff LiebermannIf you think that they're tracking the MAC address of the router, thatwould be difficult. Remote MAC addresses are not revealed by any of

The MAC address of the WAP is certainly what they use. You used to be ableto look that up in a google database to show the location of a router.http://samy.pl/androidmap/ worked well for me, once upon a time.What do you supply to Google that lets them associate you to a knownrouter?

Post by Jeff LiebermannFor geolocation to work inside any browser, you need to first giveGoogle permission to use your location information. It's usually a

The difference for me yesterday, was VPN verses not VPN. If I provided asecondary route to Mozilla, off my VPN, the geolocation worked. It alsoworked if I was not connected to the VPN.

Today's observation: I clicked the location button in Google Maps. Itblinked for a while, and opened to the location of my cable-co egress tothe internet, presumably IP location. I had revoked, or maybe never given,permission to Google Maps for location info in Chrome on this computer.When I gave permission, the icon went blue, and changed to my correctlocation.

Post by d***@90.usenet.us.comBut, I think most people get supsiciously better location results thanip2location.com delivers from your IP address. My home router is located20 miles away by IP address.

In my palatial office in Santa Cruz on Comcast, it claims I'm inBoulder Creek, that I'm on a T1, and my domain is NFL.COM. Data in,garbage out.

Post by d***@90.usenet.us.comThe MAC address of the WAP is certainly what they use. You used to be ableto look that up in a google database to show the location of a router.

Yes, that's true. However, the original problems was that David Kayedid not have an active wireless router at his location."What's even odder was that on a mapping website the map locatedme to within two blocks of where I live. There is no wi-fi hookedto this computer, either. It's Ethernet only..."It's easy for Google to do it via Wi-Fi because attempting to connectto a wireless router not only delivers the MAC address, but also putsGoogle on the LAN side of the router, not the WAN where there's afirewall to keep Google honest. So, yes they can do it via Wi-Fi, butthe question is how do they do it from the internet side?

With Wi-Fi, that's easy. MAC address and IP. No need to connect orassociate with the wireless router. The MAC address is neverencrypted or buried in Wi-Fi and is needed for the initial associationexchange. Just try to associate with the AP and the first thing itdelivers is the MAC address.

However, the WAN side is much more difficult. I'm not sure what issupplied by the Google geolocation API.

Post by Jeff LiebermannYes, that's true. However, the original problems was that David Kayedid not have an active wireless router at his location."What's even odder was that on a mapping website the map locatedme to within two blocks of where I live. There is no wi-fi hookedto this computer, either. It's Ethernet only..."

I don't parse that the same way."There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer"Might have been expanded to"There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer, but the router to which I amhardwired is a wifi router that I use every day with my tablet forreviewing Google Maps."His router data might already be in the Google Database.

A friend of mine was not aware that his 2-wire DSL modem, connected to onecomputer in the house, had WiFi enabled, or that it even had WiFi.I walked over, looked at the bottom of his router for "the key", andconnected my laptop.

Post by Jeff LiebermannYes, that's true. However, the original problems was that David Kayedid not have an active wireless router at his location."What's even odder was that on a mapping website the map locatedme to within two blocks of where I live. There is no wi-fi hookedto this computer, either. It's Ethernet only..."

I don't parse that the same way."There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer"Might have been expanded to"There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer, but the router to which I amhardwired is a wifi router that I use every day with my tablet forreviewing Google Maps."His router data might already be in the Google Database.

Good point. The computah could get the MAC address and WAN side IPaddress of the (wireless) router. It could NOT get the SSID of therouter. The Google geolocation API could send this information toGoogle, which would then lookup the MAC address in it's Wi-Fidatabase, and extract the SSID and wireless MAC address[1], which itcould then use to locate the computah based on previous drive-bylocation information. I have no idea if Google actually does this,but it's possible.

One of the Google geolocation API pages mumbled something aboutexpiring the collected data after about 30 days, but I can't seem tofind the URL right now.

Post by d***@90.usenet.us.comA friend of mine was not aware that his 2-wire DSL modem, connected to onecomputer in the house, had WiFi enabled, or that it even had WiFi.I walked over, looked at the bottom of his router for "the key", andconnected my laptop.

Yep. I see that all the time. At least 2-wire was into installingfairly unique SSID's and pre-assigning pass phrases. Some vendorsshipped their wireless routers with a wide open wireless connectionand no password. Fortunately, I don't see that too much these daze.

[1] The MAC address for the wireless port is different from the WANport, and different from each of the LAN ports. The typical homewireless router has 6 MAC addresses. If the wireless router is dualband (2.4/5GHz), it will have two wireless MAC addresses.

Post by Jeff Liebermann[1] The MAC address for the wireless port is different from the WANport, and different from each of the LAN ports. The typical homewireless router has 6 MAC addresses. If the wireless router is dualband (2.4/5GHz), it will have two wireless MAC addresses.

A bit of clarification. An ethernet switch or wireless device doesNOT have a MAC address until something is connected to it. It thenpicks up the MAC address of the connected device and uses that forswitching. In the case of a typical home router, the LAN side willstart with at least one MAC address, which is associated with therouter LAN IP address, and with the wireless. For example, my DD-WRTbased router shows:Router Name DD-WRTRouter Model Buffalo WHR-HP-G54LAN MAC 00:16:01:97:FD:A6WAN MAC 00:16:01:97:FD:A7Wireless MAC 00:16:01:97:FD:A8WAN IP 63.249.85.127LAN IP 192.168.1.1

Post by Jeff Liebermann[1] The MAC address for the wireless port is different from the WANport, and different from each of the LAN ports. The typical homewireless router has 6 MAC addresses. If the wireless router is dualband (2.4/5GHz), it will have two wireless MAC addresses.

A bit of clarification. An ethernet switch or wireless device doesNOT have a MAC address until something is connected to it.

And here I thought every time a Wi-Fi device was shipped, it hasa unique MAC address. Same with ethernet devices.

I would expect a wireless router with a WAN port, four LAN portsand WiFi to have three (perhaps more) MAC addresses assigned tothe LAN, WAN and WiFi interfaces. Of course you may not seeall (or any) of them in any given setup, due to spoofing etc.

Post by Jeff Liebermann[1] The MAC address for the wireless port is different from the WANport, and different from each of the LAN ports. The typical homewireless router has 6 MAC addresses. If the wireless router is dualband (2.4/5GHz), it will have two wireless MAC addresses.

A bit of clarification. An ethernet switch or wireless device doesNOT have a MAC address until something is connected to it.

And here I thought every time a Wi-Fi device was shipped, it hasa unique MAC address. Same with ethernet devices.

As I understand it, a managed ethernet switch might have a MAC address(and IP address) for configuation and monitoring. However, each porton the ethernet switch does NOT have its own MAC address, but insteaduses the MAC address of whatever happens to be connected.<http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/switches/datacenter/nexus5000/sw/configuration/guide/cli/CLIConfigurationGuide/MACAddress.pdf>To switch frames between LAN ports efficiently, the switchmaintains an address table. When the switch receives a frame,it associates the media access control (MAC) address of thesending network device with the LAN port on which it was received.

The easiest way to see that is on the label of the switch[1]. Thedumb switches do not have any MAC addresses listed on the serialnumber label. Managed switches have one MAC address. Wireless accesspoints have at least two (LAN and wireless). Wireless routers haveone for the ethernet switch (used for setting up the IP address forconfiguration), one each for the wireless radios, and one for each WANport.

Post by Steve PopeI would expect a wireless router with a WAN port, four LAN portsand WiFi to have three (perhaps more) MAC addresses assigned tothe LAN, WAN and WiFi interfaces. Of course you may not seeall (or any) of them in any given setup, due to spoofing etc.

Yep. That's the way it works. I haven't checked, but I think addingmultiple SSID's on a wireless router also creates additional MACaddresses[2].

[1] One needs the MAC address in order to initially configure amanaged switch due to the lack of a DHCP or BOOTP server. Typically,one simply assigns a static IP address with something like:arp -s 192.168.1.55 00-11-22-33-44-55and then uses the IP address to connect to the switch.

Post by Steve PopeAnd here I thought every time a Wi-Fi device was shipped, it hasa unique MAC address. Same with ethernet devices.

As I understand it, a managed ethernet switch might have a MAC address(and IP address) for configuation and monitoring. However, each porton the ethernet switch does NOT have its own MAC address, but insteaduses the MAC address of whatever happens to be connected.<http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/switches/datacenter/nexus5000/sw/configuration/guide/cli/CLIConfigurationGuide/MACAddress.pdf>To switch frames between LAN ports efficiently, the switchmaintains an address table. When the switch receives a frame,it associates the media access control (MAC) address of thesending network device with the LAN port on which it was received.The easiest way to see that is on the label of the switch[1]. Thedumb switches do not have any MAC addresses listed on the serialnumber label. Managed switches have one MAC address. Wireless accesspoints have at least two (LAN and wireless). Wireless routers haveone for the ethernet switch (used for setting up the IP address forconfiguration), one each for the wireless radios, and one for each WANport.

I think we're in agreement that the wireless router should havethree assigned (i.e. hardware) MAC addresses. I do not think adual-band radio needs to have two actually.

Post by Steve PopeI would expect a wireless router with a WAN port, four LAN portsand WiFi to have three (perhaps more) MAC addresses assigned tothe LAN, WAN and WiFi interfaces. Of course you may not seeall (or any) of them in any given setup, due to spoofing etc.

Yep. That's the way it works. I haven't checked, but I think addingmultiple SSID's on a wireless router also creates additional MACaddresses[2].[1] One needs the MAC address in order to initially configure amanaged switch due to the lack of a DHCP or BOOTP server. Typically,arp -s 192.168.1.55 00-11-22-33-44-55and then uses the IP address to connect to the switch.[2] Reminder: All wi-fi operates on layer 2, the MAC layer. Theonly involvement of IP addresses (layer 3) in wi-fi is forconfiguration and management.

I think where we may disagree is the extent to which various 802 deviceswithin these equipments have a hardware MAC address.

For example, suppose a desktop is connected by ethernet cable to theLAN port on a router. The ethernet adapter in the desktop hasa MAC layer with a MAC address, and its peer on the other end isthe MAC layer of an ethernet adapter in the router, also with aMAC address. The ethernet frames sent over that particular ethernetcable contain these MAC addresses. I think if you tapped intothe cable with a network analyzer you would see these "hardware"(factory-assigned) addresses on all frames. And, they would not changeafter booting/configuration, but to the outside world, it is asif they had changed. There is no need to spoof the MAC addresseson that cable.

Post by Steve PopeAnd here I thought every time a Wi-Fi device was shipped, it hasa unique MAC address. Same with ethernet devices.

As I understand it, a managed ethernet switch might have a MAC address(and IP address) for configuation and monitoring. However, each porton the ethernet switch does NOT have its own MAC address, but insteaduses the MAC address of whatever happens to be connected.<http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/switches/datacenter/nexus5000/sw/configuration/guide/cli/CLIConfigurationGuide/MACAddress.pdf>To switch frames between LAN ports efficiently, the switchmaintains an address table. When the switch receives a frame,it associates the media access control (MAC) address of thesending network device with the LAN port on which it was received.The easiest way to see that is on the label of the switch[1]. Thedumb switches do not have any MAC addresses listed on the serialnumber label. Managed switches have one MAC address. Wireless accesspoints have at least two (LAN and wireless). Wireless routers haveone for the ethernet switch (used for setting up the IP address forconfiguration), one each for the wireless radios, and one for each WANport.

I think we're in agreement that the wireless router should havethree assigned (i.e. hardware) MAC addresses. I do not think adual-band radio needs to have two actually.

Post by Steve PopeI would expect a wireless router with a WAN port, four LAN portsand WiFi to have three (perhaps more) MAC addresses assigned tothe LAN, WAN and WiFi interfaces. Of course you may not seeall (or any) of them in any given setup, due to spoofing etc.

Yep. That's the way it works. I haven't checked, but I think addingmultiple SSID's on a wireless router also creates additional MACaddresses[2].[1] One needs the MAC address in order to initially configure amanaged switch due to the lack of a DHCP or BOOTP server. Typically,arp -s 192.168.1.55 00-11-22-33-44-55and then uses the IP address to connect to the switch.[2] Reminder: All wi-fi operates on layer 2, the MAC layer. Theonly involvement of IP addresses (layer 3) in wi-fi is forconfiguration and management.

I think where we may disagree is the extent to which various 802 deviceswithin these equipments have a hardware MAC address.For example, suppose a desktop is connected by ethernet cable to theLAN port on a router. The ethernet adapter in the desktop hasa MAC layer with a MAC address, and its peer on the other end isthe MAC layer of an ethernet adapter in the router, also with aMAC address. The ethernet frames sent over that particular ethernetcable contain these MAC addresses. I think if you tapped intothe cable with a network analyzer you would see these "hardware"(factory-assigned) addresses on all frames. And, they would not changeafter booting/configuration, but to the outside world, it is asif they had changed. There is no need to spoof the MAC addresseson that cable.However, I could be wrong about this.Steve

MAC addresses are required for layer 2 endpoints. A router would haveone as well as the ethernet (or Wifi) adapter in your computer. Aswitch (or hub) doesn't need a MAC unless it also an endpoint (usuallyfor management purposes). A switch that would be doing media conversion(eg ethernet cable to fiber) probably would have a MAC.

MAC addresses could be a BIA (burned in address) aka UAA (UniversalAdminister Address). The other possibility is a LAA (locallyadministered address) that is set by software.

Post by Steve PopeFor example, suppose a desktop is connected by ethernet cable to theLAN port on a router. The ethernet adapter in the desktop hasa MAC layer with a MAC address, and its peer on the other end isthe MAC layer of an ethernet adapter in the router, also with aMAC address. The ethernet frames sent over that particular ethernetcable contain these MAC addresses. I think if you tapped intothe cable with a network analyzer you would see these "hardware"(factory-assigned) addresses on all frames. And, they would not changeafter booting/configuration, but to the outside world, it is asif they had changed. There is no need to spoof the MAC addresseson that cable.However, I could be wrong about this.

MAC addresses are required for layer 2 endpoints. A router would haveone as well as the ethernet (or Wifi) adapter in your computer.

Okay

Post by RoyA switch (or hub) doesn't need a MAC unless it also an endpoint (usuallyfor management purposes). A switch that would be doing media conversion(eg ethernet cable to fiber) probably would have a MAC.MAC addresses could be a BIA (burned in address) aka UAA (UniversalAdminister Address). The other possibility is a LAA (locallyadministered address) that is set by software.LAA rangesx2-xx-xx-xx-xx-xxx6-xx-xx-xx-xx-xxxA-xx-xx-xx-xx-xxxE-xx-xx-xx-xx-xx

Thanks. So my example above is perhaps wrong -- perhaps afterconfiguration, the Ethernet frames emerging from the desktophave a destination MAC address that is an LAA, rather than the BIAof an Ethernet adapter in the router.

Post by Steve PopeI think we're in agreement that the wireless router should havethree assigned (i.e. hardware) MAC addresses. I do not think adual-band radio needs to have two actually.

Dual band radio requires a MAC address for each band or bridgingbetween the two radios would not work. That was a problem in some ofthe early dual band wireless access points. You could connect to theinternet using either band, but you couldn't bridge from one band tothe other. I just looked at a few dual band wireless routers in mypile and all of them have individual MAC addresses for each band.

Post by Steve PopeI think where we may disagree is the extent to which various 802 deviceswithin these equipments have a hardware MAC address.

Methinks Roy explained it quite well.

However, life is more complexicated than that. An extreme example arethe various Xirrus access points, which can have up to 16 physical and16 emulated radios.<http://www.xirrus.com/product-comparison/>Each radio, physical or virtual, gets its very own MAC address. Youcould put all the radios under the same SSID, as is commonly done in"campus" networks, where there is only one visible SSID, but many MACaddresses, one for each access point radio. I worked with a prototypeAP that had a 900 MHz, 2.4GHz, and 5GHz radios in one box, each radiowith a different MAC address.

Much of the wi-fi analyzer software shows this. This week, my favoredprogram is WiFi Analyzer for Android:<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.farproc.wifi.analyzer>My Google Nexus 7 Tablet is dual band and shows different MACaddresses for each radio on each band. If I look at the hotel near myoffice, it shows about 8 access points under the same SSID withdifferent SSID's for each band. Same at other "campus" installations.I can do screen grabs of some of this, but not today.

Post by Steve PopeI think we're in agreement that the wireless router should havethree assigned (i.e. hardware) MAC addresses. I do not think adual-band radio needs to have two actually.

Dual band radio requires a MAC address for each band or bridgingbetween the two radios would not work.

I agree. But, most dual-band WiFi implementations do notcontain two radios, they contain only one dual- (or multi-) bandradio, along with one baseband processor, and one lower MAC; and havea single BIA MAC address (using Roy's terminology).

There may be situations where such a single-radio dual-band WiFidevice could be made to made to look like it is bridging between two bands(or for that matter, between two different channels in the same band).

Post by Jeff LiebermannMethinks Roy explained it quite well.I worked with a prototypeAP that had a 900 MHz, 2.4GHz, and 5GHz radios in one box, each radiowith a different MAC address.

Sounds pricey ... but one assumes, targeted for bridging applications.

I can almost guarantee you that when 802.11ah (900 MHz WiFi) devicesbecome widely available, none of them will have a separate 900 MHzradio, they will all be dual- or most likely tri-band radios.

What you might at that point see is AP's that contain threetri-band WiFi chips, each configured to operate in only one band.(Just a prediction, based on what I'm seeing being designed.)

Post by Steve PopeI think we're in agreement that the wireless router should havethree assigned (i.e. hardware) MAC addresses. I do not think adual-band radio needs to have two actually.

Dual band radio requires a MAC address for each band or bridgingbetween the two radios would not work.

I agree. But, most dual-band WiFi implementations do notcontain two radios, they contain only one dual- (or multi-) bandradio, along with one baseband processor, and one lower MAC; and havea single BIA MAC address (using Roy's terminology).There may be situations where such a single-radio dual-band WiFidevice could be made to made to look like it is bridging between two bands(or for that matter, between two different channels in the same band).

Well, yes if it's a client. In the current way of doing things, youcan only connect to a single access point with a client radio. Yes, Iknow there are new and wonderful protocols and hacks that allow morethan one connection, but I'm talking about the typical client radio,such as a laptop, tablet, or smartphone. So, for one of these clientradios, you only need one MAC address because one never has both bandsconnected to something at the same time. Dual band wireless sniffingdoesn't count because the client radio never associates with any ofthe AP's (or clients) that it's sniffing.

Well, let's see if that's true. My Google Nexus 7 (2013) does dualband and uses a Qualcomm/Atheros WCN3660 chip:<https://chipworks.secure.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=QUA-WCN3660>For a nominal $5,000, I get to find out what's inside without an NDA:<http://www.chipworks.com/TOC/Qualcomm_WCN3660_Wireless_Combo_Chip_FAR-1208-803_TOC.pdf>The press release doesn't help much:<https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2011/05/31/qualcomm-atheros-announces-highly-integrated-connectivity-solution-superior>Ah... it has a LTE/ISM coexistence which implies that only one radiois on at a time. Ok, it's one radio with BT/LTE/WiFi on only one at atime.

I'm having a hell of a time finding an app that will deliver mytablet's MAC address. So far:Settings -> WiFi -> Advancedshows the same MAC address for whether I connect to my router on 2.4or 5GHz. So, for the client, it's probably a single MAC address forthe device.

However, looking at all the dual band wireless routers on the shelf,all of them have a different MAC address for each radio and most seemto have different chips for 2.4 and 5GHz. For example, I've beenpushing Linksys EA2700 routers (because I got a bunch of them cheap).<http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/31738-cisco-linksys-ea2700-gigabit-dual-band-wireless-n600-router-reviewed>It uses a Broadcom BCM47186 for 2.4Ghz and a BCM43236 for 5GHz. Seephoto and notice that the 2x antennas each go to a separate shieldedsection on the PCB.

If I do find a wireless router with only one Wi-Fi chip, I would alsoexpect to find that it won't do 2.4/5 Ghz simultaneously and if it didhappen to support 2.4 <-> 5Ghz bridging, it would be dreadfully slowdue to multiplexing.

Post by Jeff LiebermannI worked with a prototypeAP that had a 900 MHz, 2.4GHz, and 5GHz radios in one box, each radiowith a different MAC address.

Sounds pricey ... but one assumes, targeted for bridging applications.

Yep. It died after the first prototype. This was long before802.11ah. Ubiquiti was selling their flavor of 900 Mhz 802.11 stylechips, which was suppose to be an option. It had 4 mini-PCI slotsthat could handle various combinations of radios. My job was keepingthe radios from desensitizing and interfering with each other. I'mrather glad it died because I the coupling was so horrible, that Idon't think I could have made it work without expensive shielding.

Post by Steve PopeI can almost guarantee you that when 802.11ah (900 MHz WiFi) devicesbecome widely available, none of them will have a separate 900 MHzradio, they will all be dual- or most likely tri-band radios.

I would agree for the client side (tablets, smartphones, and laptops).I'll disagree for the wireless router side, which methinks needsseparate radios or the performance will be disgusting and bridgingbetween wireless ports will be slow or impossible.

Post by Steve PopeWhat you might at that point see is AP's that contain threetri-band WiFi chips, each configured to operate in only one band.(Just a prediction, based on what I'm seeing being designed.)

I think Xirrus does exactly that. You plug in a "radio" module, andprogram it to do whatever you want. I'm not sure if the antenna needsto be swapped.

Drivel: Typical Friday. UPS and Fedex arrive with the parts I'vebeen waiting for all week just before I try to leave. So, I get towork all night. Argh.

Post by Jeff Liebermann[1] The MAC address for the wireless port is different from the WANport, and different from each of the LAN ports. The typical homewireless router has 6 MAC addresses. If the wireless router is dualband (2.4/5GHz), it will have two wireless MAC addresses.

On my Asus NT-56U, the LAN MAC is the same as the 5GHz address, and the 2.4GHz address differs by one digit, which is repeated as the WAN MAC.

From the admin page for "Network Map":LAN MAC address 10:C3:7B:22:BC:71Wireless 2.4GHz MAC address 10:C3:7B:22:BC:70Wireless 5GHz MAC address 10:C3:7B:22:BC:71It offers the ability to "MAC Clone", but the box with the WAN MAC addressis currently empty.Viewed from the Cable Modem Addresses page:Known CPE MAC Address 10:C3:7B:22:BC:70 is the same as the 2.4 GHz MAC.

This agrees with "iwlist scanning" and "arp -a" on a Linux box.Hey! iwlist says the 2.4GHz is :70, but arp -a says :71iwconfig says 2.4GHz, :70. The label on the box says :70upnp says :71.the ipv6 address of the router has "BC71" in it.

I've always figured that Google would add/subtract 1 to find suitable MACsin the same router in its database. That might come up wrong, but youalready have ip2location for a reasonablness test. And the 12 otherrouters in the area that are in the database.

Post by d***@90.usenet.us.comI don't parse that the same way."There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer"Might have been expanded to"There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer, but the router to which I amhardwired is a wifi router that I use every day with my tablet forreviewing Google Maps."His router data might already be in the Google Database.

A couple things here. We used to have the wi-fi turned on, but that wasused to link an old Dell desktop to the router rather than run wires. I douse a tablet from time to time, but I don't use it on our own router; I useit on a neighbor's Comcast wi-fi. Also, my tablet either doesn't have GPSor it's broken because I keep getting messages on things like boating appsthat tell me I'll have to set my location manually because they can't detectmy location.

---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.http://www.avast.com

upnp calls reveal the "serial number" of routers, which looks just like theMAC address, but geolocation works with no upnp.As you mentioned, someone might clone their PC MAC onto the router, so yourlaptop MAC might be stored as the MAC of the router in the geolocationdatabase.

So, what might the by-guess-and-by-golly method be?Try upnp, get a known Router Mac in the geo-database: done.Check the external IP, locate that in a genaric ip2location, <sigh>, keeplooking for a better location.Look for the external IP in the database, maybe a good hit, maybe not,since a Google Maps phone probably did a nice job of providing mac, ip, andlocation. If the address hasn't been reassigend, that might be stable, butuntrusted.

There was a time when cellular modems returned awkward results, but thosewere stripped from the database for known MACs.

upnp calls reveal the "serial number" of routers, which looks just like theMAC address, but geolocation works with no upnp.As you mentioned, someone might clone their PC MAC onto the router, so yourlaptop MAC might be stored as the MAC of the router in the geolocationdatabase.So, what might the by-guess-and-by-golly method be?Try upnp, get a known Router Mac in the geo-database: done.Check the external IP, locate that in a genaric ip2location, <sigh>, keeplooking for a better location.Look for the external IP in the database, maybe a good hit, maybe not,since a Google Maps phone probably did a nice job of providing mac, ip, andlocation. If the address hasn't been reassigend, that might be stable, butuntrusted.There was a time when cellular modems returned awkward results, but thosewere stripped from the database for known MACs.

802 has been considering protocols that allow (or perhaps, even require)MAC layer devices to appear to have randomized MAC addresses. Kindof the opposite of the original intent of a MAC address.

This is still in the early stages, and of course will not applyto cellular.

upnp calls reveal the "serial number" of routers, which looks just like theMAC address, but geolocation works with no upnp.As you mentioned, someone might clone their PC MAC onto the router, so yourlaptop MAC might be stored as the MAC of the router in the geolocationdatabase.So, what might the by-guess-and-by-golly method be?Try upnp, get a known Router Mac in the geo-database: done.Check the external IP, locate that in a genaric ip2location, <sigh>, keeplooking for a better location.Look for the external IP in the database, maybe a good hit, maybe not,since a Google Maps phone probably did a nice job of providing mac, ip, andlocation. If the address hasn't been reassigend, that might be stable, butuntrusted.There was a time when cellular modems returned awkward results, but thosewere stripped from the database for known MACs.

802 has been considering protocols that allow (or perhaps, even require)MAC layer devices to appear to have randomized MAC addresses. Kindof the opposite of the original intent of a MAC address.This is still in the early stages, and of course will not applyto cellular.Steve

Also IPv6 is a factor. Under Stateless Address Assignment IPv6addresses will be built from a combination of the Layer 3 subnet prefixand the MAC address of the client.

Post by Steve Pope802 has been considering protocols that allow (or perhaps, even require)MAC layer devices to appear to have randomized MAC addresses. Kindof the opposite of the original intent of a MAC address.

Also IPv6 is a factor. Under Stateless Address Assignment IPv6addresses will be built from a combination of the Layer 3 subnet prefixand the MAC address of the client.

Interesting. I assume IETF is doing the Stateless Address Assignment.They usually coordinate well with 802, so probably everything is okay.

If you think that they're tracking the MAC address of the router, thatwould be difficult. Remote MAC addresses are not revealed by any ofthe Javascript, CGI, HTML5, etc tools that I could find. Many userstransfer their PC's MAC address to the router WAN port in order todeal with ancient authentication schemes. The originating MAC addressis stripped off by bridges, switches and router and cannot be sniffedon the opposite side. The only way I would guess Google might obtainthe local MAC address is by having the browser supply it to Googleafter perhaps running arp -a or something similar.

shudder. Who is pinging? No driveby wifi can ping my addresses.Ping latency from me to any number of servers is not helpful, except maybeto detect my quadrant of the state, if that.

My mistake. I was guessing how Google might have refined David Kaye'slocation without using wi-fi and speculated that it could be done withping. I did some work with that 20 years ago, and know that it can bedone. However, I didn't make it clear that this was my guess, notsome kind of inside information. Sorry(tm).

I have proven that, when I moved. I left the cable modem behind, but tookmy router, which was in the wrong place until I used Google Maps on myphone.

Nice test. Thanks.

Post by d***@90.usenet.us.comNote: The geolocation doesn't work when I am connected to my VPN.I added a route to cdn.mozilla.net outside of my VPN, and it worked inChrome, but still not in Firefox.

For geolocation to work inside any browser, you need to first giveGoogle permission to use your location information. It's usually adialog that appears when you first connect to a site that requestsyour location. If you said "allow" in Chrome, but "don't allow" inFirefox, that would explain the difference.

Not correct.

You need to give permission for the transfer of Google Location data viathe browser to another site. Any site may look up your locationdirectly via IP address. Once permission is given, the mapping canremain on the server forever.

Post by Jeff Liebermann<https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/geolocation/>See: "How do I undo a permission granted to a site"?I have mine set to "Use Default" except I can't find where to set thedefault in Firefox.<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/geolocater/>might be responsible for some of the erronious geolocation returns.

--I will not see posts from astraweb, theremailer, dizum, or googlebecause they host Usenet flooders.

If you think that they're tracking the MAC address of the router, thatwould be difficult. Remote MAC addresses are not revealed by any ofthe Javascript, CGI, HTML5, etc tools that I could find. Many userstransfer their PC's MAC address to the router WAN port in order todeal with ancient authentication schemes. The originating MAC addressis stripped off by bridges, switches and router and cannot be sniffedon the opposite side. The only way I would guess Google might obtainthe local MAC address is by having the browser supply it to Googleafter perhaps running arp -a or something similar.

shudder. Who is pinging? No driveby wifi can ping my addresses.Ping latency from me to any number of servers is not helpful, except maybeto detect my quadrant of the state, if that.

My mistake. I was guessing how Google might have refined David Kaye'slocation without using wi-fi and speculated that it could be done withping. I did some work with that 20 years ago, and know that it can bedone. However, I didn't make it clear that this was my guess, notsome kind of inside information. Sorry(tm).

I have proven that, when I moved. I left the cable modem behind, but tookmy router, which was in the wrong place until I used Google Maps on myphone.

Nice test. Thanks.

Post by d***@90.usenet.us.comNote: The geolocation doesn't work when I am connected to my VPN.I added a route to cdn.mozilla.net outside of my VPN, and it worked inChrome, but still not in Firefox.

For geolocation to work inside any browser, you need to first giveGoogle permission to use your location information. It's usually adialog that appears when you first connect to a site that requestsyour location. If you said "allow" in Chrome, but "don't allow" inFirefox, that would explain the difference.

Not correct.You need to give permission for the transfer of Google Location data viathe browser to another site. Any site may look up your locationdirectly via IP address. Once permission is given, the mapping canremain on the server forever.

Post by Jeff Liebermann<https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/geolocation/>See: "How do I undo a permission granted to a site"?I have mine set to "Use Default" except I can't find where to set thedefault in Firefox.<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/geolocater/>might be responsible for some of the erronious geolocation returns.

--I will not see posts from astraweb, theremailer, dizum, or googlebecause they host Usenet flooders.

When they rely on IP address it will show Santa Clara which is a good 35 miles from where I am.

For my Android apps I sync with the satellites first and if they won't sync up within 1.5 minutes then I take the network location which will work okay for my users. If that doesn't work then it takes "last known good location." My users can decide whether they want to use GPS or not and it's not on by default.

If you are referring to ip2location, sure, but Google might also have an IPaddress of the router in it's high granularity database. The ip2locationaddresses are input by the operator, if I recall correctly. I think therewas something like E911 in the works 10 years ago, but I don't recall thedetails.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netFor my Android apps I sync with the satellites first and if they won'tsync up within 1.5 minutes then I take the network location which will workokay for my users. If that doesn't work then it takes "last known goodlocation." My users can decide whether they want to use GPS or not andit's not on by default.

How do you "sync with the satellites first"? Do you turn off WiFi?For Android apps, the fastest satellite lock is to let it use WiFi andGoogle for coarse positioning first, so it knows which satellites should bevisible.

If you are referring to ip2location, sure, but Google might also have an IPaddress of the router in it's high granularity database. The ip2locationaddresses are input by the operator, if I recall correctly. I think therewas something like E911 in the works 10 years ago, but I don't recall thedetails.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netFor my Android apps I sync with the satellites first and if they won'tsync up within 1.5 minutes then I take the network location which will workokay for my users. If that doesn't work then it takes "last known goodlocation." My users can decide whether they want to use GPS or not andit's not on by default.

How do you "sync with the satellites first"? Do you turn off WiFi?For Android apps, the fastest satellite lock is to let it use WiFi andGoogle for coarse positioning first, so it knows which satellites should bevisible.--Clarence A Dold - Santa Rosa, CA, USA GPS: 38.47,-122.65

The GPS API lets you prioritize. My use is for people on the go who need the present location not some wifi they're connected to. You can look up examples in the Android SDK. But yes, the kids at Google tend to think the whole world is connected via wifi all the time. That's a very narrow and inexperienced view.

... the kids at Google tend to think the whole world is connected via wifiall the time. That's a very narrow and inexperienced view.

Yep, and it causes some oddities. I just bought a new bottom of theline smartphone (Motorola Moto G first generation) which in Android4.4.4 has a setting:Settings -> Wifi -> AdvancedScanning Always AvailableLet Google's Location service and other apps scan fornetworks, even when Wi-Fi is off.

When it does scan and find another network, it doesn't come back tothe original SSID. The problem manifests itself when I'm connected tomy nice strong wireless router in my palatial office. The phone goesinto standby after a few minutes. While in standby, Google decidesit's time to phone home and send Google my location. Even though itcould easily reconnect to my SSID, it decides to scan for accesspoints instead. For some unknown reason, xfinitywifi is always thefirst choice, even if the signal is weak, and the previously connectedSSID is present and has a strong signal. I have "Keep Wi-Fi on duringsleep = always" selected, which is not the problem. My phone connectsto xfinitywifi, but does not successfully transfer my location becauseComcast demands a login and password and the Wi-Fi manager does notstore browser based login/password pairs. Sometime later, I punch abutton to kick my phone out of standby, and find myself connected toxfinitywifi, instead of my office router. It's quite consistent andhappens every time. The only way I can make it work is to disablescanning for location service.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netThe GPS API lets you prioritize. My use is for people on the go who need the present location not some wifi they're connected to. You can look up examples in the Android SDK. But yes, the kids at Google tend to think the whole world is connected via wifi all the time. That's a very narrow and inexperienced view.

Letting the Wifi assist WiFi should be faster getting the satellite lock,but you will get your gps location. Do you think that's not true?That would be a defect in your GPS App.

There is a set of Wifi locations cached in your Android device that may ormay not be helpful when you try to get satellite lock, and are offline.

I find this google API to be well aware of what is connected and not.

I find Google Maps to be a little slow on the uptake...It sometimes fails to map because I happened to drive by someone's homw ithan Xfinitywifi for me to poach. Moments later, out of range of that WiFi,it will route. That is on the internet lookup side, though, not GPS.

I find other programs brain dead in the connected/not connected area. If Ilaunch them from my driveway and drive away, they just don't work... theydon't give up on the WiFi connection and use cellular. Or if there iscellular in a sporadic area, the app never comes up.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netThe GPS API lets you prioritize. My use is for people on the go who need the present location not some wifi they're connected to. You can look up examples in the Android SDK. But yes, the kids at Google tend to think the whole world is connected via wifi all the time. That's a very narrow and inexperienced view.

Letting the Wifi assist WiFi should be faster getting the satellite lock,but you will get your gps location. Do you think that's not true?That would be a defect in your GPS App.There is a set of Wifi locations cached in your Android device that may ormay not be helpful when you try to get satellite lock, and are offline.I find this google API to be well aware of what is connected and not.I find Google Maps to be a little slow on the uptake...It sometimes fails to map because I happened to drive by someone's homw ithan Xfinitywifi for me to poach. Moments later, out of range of that WiFi,it will route. That is on the internet lookup side, though, not GPS.I find other programs brain dead in the connected/not connected area. If Ilaunch them from my driveway and drive away, they just don't work... theydon't give up on the WiFi connection and use cellular. Or if there iscellular in a sporadic area, the app never comes up.--Clarence A Dold - Santa Rosa, CA, USA GPS: 38.47,-122.65

I'm not saying that it always takes a minute and a half. Often around here it doesn't at all, just a few seconds. In other parts of the world it may take longer. Sometimes if you're indoors it can take a while otherwise outside faster.

A friend who worked for a company in the 1980s which developed GPS receivers marvel at being able to do it on a smartphone because back then it took a rack of equipment.

The MAC on the WAN side of a local router would have very limitedvisibility. The WiFi user can't see it, it is only visible to the nexthop, the cable modem.

If your phone is connected via WiFi, you have a router MAC visible to youthat you politely pass along to Google along with MACs of other WAPs in theneighborhood. Any wifi-but-not-gps enabled user can utilize that list of WAPsfor gelocation from Google.

My router provides the same MAC address to WiFi as it does to LAN Ethernet,according to arp -a, so that lookup would be identical, in the Google Database.

Post by David KayeI went to Weather Underground (wunderground.com) and my browser asked if Iwanted to share my location with the website. I said yes and it located mein San Francisco, though I am using a 12 year old desktop computer with nogeolocation hardware on it.

HTML5 does geolocation.<http://www.webcodegeeks.com/html5/html5-geolocation-example-weather-widget-demo/>Your 12 year old computah is probably running XP, which does supportbrowsers that support HTML5.

Out of curiosity, I brought up http://www.wunderground.com

First using the tor browser. The website had no ideawhere I was and gave me a generic world page.

Then I used Safari. It thought I was in Washington Statewhich seems to be the hub for my ISP, I get that as my locationusually.

So, my guess is that the geo-location is working off amap of IPs.

I have a static IP.

--Banks are an almost irresistible attraction for that element ofour society which seeks unearned money. - J. Edgar Hoover

Post by David KayeI went to Weather Underground (wunderground.com) and my browser asked if Iwanted to share my location with the website. I said yes and it located mein San Francisco, though I am using a 12 year old desktop computer with nogeolocation hardware on it.What's even odder was that on a mapping website the map located me to withintwo blocks of where I live. There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer,either. It's Ethernet only. And yet my Comcast IP usually indicates SantaClara when I look it up, or if it does say SF, then it locates to the FolsomStreet intertie. How to the map and the Wunderground websites know?I'm assuming that some cookies have been dropped somewhere, but when Iturned off and deleted cookies on all my browsers the neighborhood mappingwas still able to locate me within 2 blocks of my address. And what's more,if random webpages can find me or nearly find me, there must be some kind ofco-operation in the web world to make this happen, and yet web developerscan't even agree on which version of HTML to use!I'm stymied. Ideas anyone?---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.http://www.avast.com

Google continuously tracks the position of every phone and every WiFiaccess point nearby when the phone is using Google Location Services.Google Street View cars may also be monitoring WiFi signals. Your IPaddress may have been connected to a WiFi access point at some time,which would allow it to be seen by hundreds of phones that are beingtracked.

Post by David KayeI went to Weather Underground (wunderground.com) and my browser asked if Iwanted to share my location with the website. I said yes and it located mein San Francisco, though I am using a 12 year old desktop computer with nogeolocation hardware on it.What's even odder was that on a mapping website the map located me to withintwo blocks of where I live. There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer,either. It's Ethernet only. And yet my Comcast IP usually indicates SantaClara when I look it up, or if it does say SF, then it locates to the FolsomStreet intertie. How to the map and the Wunderground websites know?I'm assuming that some cookies have been dropped somewhere, but when Iturned off and deleted cookies on all my browsers the neighborhood mappingwas still able to locate me within 2 blocks of my address. And what's more,if random webpages can find me or nearly find me, there must be some kind ofco-operation in the web world to make this happen, and yet web developerscan't even agree on which version of HTML to use!I'm stymied. Ideas anyone?

If you use your phone from the same location, they may well havedisambiguated you, so it is using a cell tower as the location.

I know that Google, and perhaps Facebook, and others, have disambiguatedme across several devices (despite consistent cookie-cleaning, notloging on simulatenously to more than one service, etc.) The generalrule is, they are smarter than you and one slip-up and theycan disambiguate.

There's one (only somewhat creepy, but weird enough) result of this isfor me, is that back in the 2008 financial crisis, while reading GoogleNews, I must have innocently typed in a search string "Merkel Bonds Spain",relevant at the time. Ever since, on any device, in any location,whether logged into Google or not, if I go to Google News it fetches anentire category labeled "Merkel Bonds Spain", at the top hierarchy level,level with "World News", "Sports", "Science News", etc.

In a way, I'm flattered that they grooved my search string so much.Like, we're not going to be rid of Merkel/Bonds/Spain anytime verysoon so after 7 years it is relevant. I fantasize that the DarkOverlords have deemed my "Merkel Bonds Spain" search-argument ofsufficient importance they might even serve it up to other phenotypeswho may resemble me in their algorithms.

But what happened to all of the hundreds of other Google News search stringsin the intervening time? No fucking clue. It's just this one.It must be the lottery winner.

Post by Steve PopeThere's one (only somewhat creepy, but weird enough) result of this isfor me, is that back in the 2008 financial crisis, while reading GoogleNews, I must have innocently typed in a search string "Merkel Bonds Spain",relevant at the time. Ever since, on any device, in any location,whether logged into Google or not, if I go to Google News it fetches anentire category labeled "Merkel Bonds Spain", at the top hierarchy level,level with "World News", "Sports", "Science News", etc.In a way, I'm flattered that they grooved my search string so much.Like, we're not going to be rid of Merkel/Bonds/Spain anytime verysoon so after 7 years it is relevant. I fantasize that the DarkOverlords have deemed my "Merkel Bonds Spain" search-argument ofsufficient importance they might even serve it up to other phenotypeswho may resemble me in their algorithms.But what happened to all of the hundreds of other Google News search stringsin the intervening time? No fucking clue. It's just this one.It must be the lottery winner.

Post by David KayeI went to Weather Underground (wunderground.com) and my browser asked if Iwanted to share my location with the website. I said yes and it located mein San Francisco, though I am using a 12 year old desktop computer with nogeolocation hardware on it.What's even odder was that on a mapping website the map located me to withintwo blocks of where I live. There is no wi-fi hooked to this computer,either. It's Ethernet only. And yet my Comcast IP usually indicates SantaClara when I look it up, or if it does say SF, then it locates to the FolsomStreet intertie. How to the map and the Wunderground websites know?I'm assuming that some cookies have been dropped somewhere, but when Iturned off and deleted cookies on all my browsers the neighborhood mappingwas still able to locate me within 2 blocks of my address. And what's more,if random webpages can find me or nearly find me, there must be some kind ofco-operation in the web world to make this happen, and yet web developerscan't even agree on which version of HTML to use!I'm stymied. Ideas anyone?---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.http://www.avast.com

I let Google find my location as well as other services because I got tired of seeing the weather in Santa Clara. In some cases it's just that you probably put your zip code in for something. If I do a Google search for some service or store it's better to have what's around me than 40 miles away.

But I guess if you are planning some subversive actives you might want to remain hidden.

Actually, I always put in a bogus zip code, near to me but not mine. It'snot that I'm trying to hide anything; it's just that I don't like Google oranybody else taking info from me when they should be PAYING me for my info.If I'm such a valuable commodity that they want every bit of info about methat they can glean, then they should at least be paying for it!

---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.http://www.avast.com

Actually, I always put in a bogus zip code, near to me but not mine. It'snot that I'm trying to hide anything; it's just that I don't like Google oranybody else taking info from me when they should be PAYING me for my info.If I'm such a valuable commodity that they want every bit of info about methat they can glean, then they should at least be paying for it!

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netI let Google find my location as well as other services becauseI got tired of seeing the weather in Santa Clara. In somecases it's just that you probably put your zip code in forsomething. If I do a Google search for some service or storeit's better to have what's around me than 40 miles away.But I guess if you are planning some subversive actives youmight want to remain hidden.

"If you have done nothing wrong, comrade, you have nothing tofear." - Lavrenti Beria, Stalin's head of the NKVD, the secret police.

There are so many people who could tell you they thoughtthey had nothing to fear. Many of them are dead.

--In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.- George Orwell

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netI let Google find my location as well as other services becauseI got tired of seeing the weather in Santa Clara. In somecases it's just that you probably put your zip code in forsomething. If I do a Google search for some service or storeit's better to have what's around me than 40 miles away.But I guess if you are planning some subversive actives youmight want to remain hidden.

"If you have done nothing wrong, comrade, you have nothing tofear." - Lavrenti Beria, Stalin's head of the NKVD, the secret police.There are so many people who could tell you they thoughtthey had nothing to fear. Many of them are dead.--In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.- George Orwell

If you want to make money selling Android apps you'll need to provide such info. Yes, allegedly Google was backed by a CIA run investment firm when it started up. But I'm not quite ready to pack it in and get a cabin in the woods.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netI let Google find my location as well as other services becauseI got tired of seeing the weather in Santa Clara. In somecases it's just that you probably put your zip code in forsomething. If I do a Google search for some service or storeit's better to have what's around me than 40 miles away.But I guess if you are planning some subversive actives youmight want to remain hidden.

"If you have done nothing wrong, comrade, you have nothing tofear." - Lavrenti Beria, Stalin's head of the NKVD, the secret police.There are so many people who could tell you they thoughtthey had nothing to fear. Many of them are dead.--In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.- George Orwell

If you want to make money selling Android apps you'll need to provide suchinfo. Yes, allegedly Google was backed by a CIA run investment firm whenit started up. But I'm not quite ready to pack it in and get a cabin inthe woods.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netYes, allegedly Google was backed by a CIA run investment firm when itstarted up.But I'm not quite ready to pack it in and get a cabin in the woods.

Oh? I had no idea between a Google and CIA connection, though I do rememberSergei laughing when Americans talked about privacy. "Privacy? We don'thave privacy. That's a quaint notion..." Sergei Brin is Russian, ofcourse. I wouldn't put it past Google to have all kinds of governmentconnections.

As to the cabin in the woods, if you're in the market I know of a great oneon northeastern California for $185k, with a mortgage of just $625 a month.13 acres, a home and two outbuildings, a creek running through it. Greatplace.

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Post by n***@sbcglobal.netYes, allegedly Google was backed by a CIA run investment firm when itstarted up.But I'm not quite ready to pack it in and get a cabin in the woods.

Oh? I had no idea between a Google and CIA connection, though I do rememberSergei laughing when Americans talked about privacy. "Privacy? We don'thave privacy. That's a quaint notion..." Sergei Brin is Russian, ofcourse. I wouldn't put it past Google to have all kinds of governmentconnections.

Talking of priivacy and controlling data has anyone elsenoted something strange about the recent death of the husband ofthe facebook CEO's husband?

Privacy? We know he died on Friday, suddenly. We know thewho, Fave Goldberg, husband of Sheryl Sandberg, but theyhave managed to keep private the Where (We know not the US), andhe How.

It would seem privacy is available for those who makemoney from the lack of privacy of others. The irony amuses me.

--Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem,first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded byarseholes - William Gibson

Post by Julian MacasseyTalking of priivacy and controlling data has anyone elsenoted something strange about the recent death of the husband ofthe facebook CEO's husband?Privacy? We know he died on Friday, suddenly. We know thewho, Fave Goldberg, husband of Sheryl Sandberg, but theyhave managed to keep private the Where (We know not the US), andhe How.It would seem privacy is available for those who makemoney from the lack of privacy of others. The irony amuses me.

There is now an account of his death on (at least) the Wall Street Journal.Briefly, he died from a head injury apparently accidently inflictedwhile using the exercise room at a Four Seasons hotel in Mexico.

Based on that account, the police were probably keeping detailssecret until foul play and/or negligence could be ruled out.

Post by Julian MacasseyTalking of priivacy and controlling data has anyone elsenoted something strange about the recent death of the husband ofthe facebook CEO's husband?Privacy? We know he died on Friday, suddenly. We know thewho, Fave Goldberg, husband of Sheryl Sandberg, but theyhave managed to keep private the Where (We know not the US), andhe How.It would seem privacy is available for those who makemoney from the lack of privacy of others. The irony amuses me.

There is now an account of his death on (at least) the Wall Street Journal.Briefly, he died from a head injury apparently accidently inflictedwhile using the exercise room at a Four Seasons hotel in Mexico.Based on that account, the police were probably keeping detailssecret until foul play and/or negligence could be ruled out.

Then explian how come the detail what country thishappened in was kept secret? Or that it was in a hotel? Or thathe was DOA at hospital?

When other people die, these are the minimum details.

I didn't go to an get an American Journalism degree, butwhen I was a reporter, the minimum was Who, What, Why, Where,When, How. That was the minimum, not "pick two".

Maybe Sheryl was busy leaning in.

--In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.- George Orwell

Post by David KayeI went to Weather Underground (wunderground.com) and my browser asked if Iwanted to share my location with the website. I said yes and it located mein San Francisco, though I am using a 12 year old desktop computer with nogeolocation hardware on it.

Your desktop computer might not have geolocation, or wifi, but does therouter that you are connected to have WiFi?

If not, have you ever connected a laptop to your router, while it also hadwifi?

Google Geolocation isn't magic, it is just so persistent and prevalent thatit looks that way. ;-)

Remember a few years ago when iTunes backup let your locations spill out tothe world (I think that's what the headlines blared)?

It's all the same.

If you use mapping software on a device that has WiFi, all of the WiFilocations that are close enough for you to see, whether you ever connect tothem or not, have now been geolocated.

Right after the Apple debacle, I looked at the travels of an iPad in thefamily. On our travels to Disneyland, it did find us in the DisneylandHotel, and in 100+ other locations nearby. It also spotted us in severalcommunities as much as 20 miles off to the side of I-5, at about the righttime for us to have been traveling on I-5 through that area.

In a gated community near us, it had extensive maps of our travels. I knowthose weren't Google StreetView associated, because it is a gatedcommunity, and the streetviewmobile never went in there.

It is not your IP address that locates you, it is the MAC address of yourrouter. You used to be able to look up the location of a MAC address, butthat feature has been turned off.

With a new router, Google Maps can't locate me... for a few days. But, ifI use an Android device to check Maps, poof, magic, my desktop can nowGeolocate. I forget the timing, but I recall that it was lacking for a fewdays, but was available within hours of my using Google Maps on a phone.

If you have Xfinity cable service, you are likey being geomapped even ifyou turn your WiFi off, on their WiFi capable routers.

I can see various folks connecting to my "XfinityWifi" SSID. I presumethey are just driving by, and not sitting in my driveway. My own Androidphone gets upset whenever I drive by the local Kaiser hospital, and neglectto log on to their WiFi.

Post by d***@90.usenet.us.comIn a gated community near us, it had extensive maps of our travels. I knowthose weren't Google StreetView associated, because it is a gatedcommunity, and the streetviewmobile never went in there.

I'm assuming that the Comcast Xfinity modem "upgrade" includes geolocation.I think this is why they keep bugging me to "upgrade".

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Post by David KayeI'm assuming that the Comcast Xfinity modem "upgrade" includes geolocation.I think this is why they keep bugging me to "upgrade".

The Xfinity modem doesn't need a geolocation feature. The XfinityWiFi thatis on by default will get picked up and properly located by every Androidand iOS device that has a map running when they drive by.

I could see them in a direct URL, not the normal Arris Modem GUI.

Do you have "XfinityWiFi" as an available WAP that seems about as strong asyour own Comcast router?

No, because I haven't "upgraded" to the new modem. By the way, here theirwifi is simply called "xfinity" or "cablewifi". I haven't gotten a clearanswer from them on whether other users' use of our modem would countagainst our usage, so that's another reason why I haven't "upgraded". But Iactually did "upgrade" some months back but the new modem didn't work. Iturned it back in and they've been trying to charge me for both the currentone and the new one.

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Post by David KayeNo, because I haven't "upgraded" to the new modem. By the way, here theirwifi is simply called "xfinity" or "cablewifi". I haven't gotten a clear

"CableWifi" is a consortium, not just Xfinity, kind of like CellularRoaming. The commercial locations that are available as "xfinitywifi" arealso available as "cablewifi"

http://www.cablewifi.com/https://wifi.comcast.com/faqs.phpWhat is CableWiFi and is it related to XFINITY WiFi?

Post by David Kayeanswer from them on whether other users' use of our modem would countagainst our usage, so that's another reason why I haven't "upgraded".

The XfinityWifi is a separate channel in the cable modem, so it does notcount against your usage, and it does not burden your bandwidth.If you have four bonded channels providining 50Mbps, there are otherchannels used for the XfinityWifi.Xfinitywifi users are from a different IP address block, so that badbehavior is traced to your ISP, and not your usage.

Post by David Kayeturned it back in and they've been trying to charge me for both the current

My only problem turning in my modem is that Google Maps insists that somecheck cashing place is a Comcast store. My "correction" that the site wasclosed was rejected, probably because the listed phone number is stillanswered by an autobot.