www.live-shot.com

Ladies &amp; Gentlemen. Fellow hunters.
For several days now i have been going to post about this subject. I saw this live shot on a documentary on German TV. this morning i get emails from work colleagues about the subject, It has also bieng grasped by the anti hunting anti field sports lobby here as ammunition to throw at us hunters and field sportsmen.
This sick activity of shooting a live animal at the click of a mouse on a PC should be stopped. I urge all you hunters in and around the area where this operation takes place, and in fact USA and even world wide to do all we can to not only get this un ethical and sick activity stopped and to distance our selves from these sick individuals who offer this and who take part, This activity has absolutely no place and no reason to exist.
I have long been a complainer about the german system of having to do training and a training course followed by an exam in order to become a hunter, but when i see things like this, then i can only say that there are reasons that hunters should be schooled and taught and qualified.
You guys who have posted on here asking about the use of SMK and Amax bullets on game. I would like to remind you that there is a reason game bullets exist and there is a reason why match bullets exist. By using match bullets on game you are only giving the anit's ammunition to use against us.
If it is the case that Hornday Amaxbullets perform well on thin skinned game then i would encourage Hornady to carry out tests and then when found to be satisfactory, label thier Amax as a thin skinned game bullet / match bullet,, even call it the Gmax perhaps.
Pete

If a hunter has a bad car accident and is now unable to go out to hunt but is able to do it from a computer is it wrong? Is it better to put a "match" bullet in the right spot and kill the deer quickly or use a "hunting " bullet and make a poor shot or not be able to take the shot because you know the bullet probably won't hit the spot. Bullet placement is way more important than using a bullet labled for hunting. Some use carb cleaner to clean their barrels. Is that wrong? I personally think that a SMK bullet is a better deer bullet than the Barnes X "hunting" bullet. I have used both and the SMK worked better for me. The next guy likes the X bullet better. So what. The Amax and SMK bullets were designed to be accurate but if they work on game than why not use them. We need to stick together in this sport.

Hary, there is a difference between a disabled hunter and a lard assed lazy slob with a blood lust. And to answer your question, is it wrong to kill an animal at the click of a mouse.. do i have to answer that?
I hunt with a passion, and if i didn't have the use of my legs i would crawl after game, i would have some buddies put me in a tree stand. and if i wasn't actualy able to hold a rifle and pull a trigger, then i would graciously give up my hobby, think about the good times ive had and the magnificent game animals ive taken and be happy for what once was. Killing an animal vai computer from your living room has nothing to do with hunting, it is just killing. Hunting has to do with just that, hunting.. it is the thrill of the stalk, the experience of bieng out doors, of seeing nature when no one else is around. The shot or kill, that is of secondary importance.
With ref to match bullets on deer, it may be that the amax works on thin skinned game, but there are many match bullets that dont. We here on long range hunting are representing a large body of hunters around the world, how many lurkers are here compared to posters, we are obligated to try and encourage the right practices whilst persuing our beloved hobby. If you thing that a match bullet is going to give you the edge over a hunting bullet at the vast majority of hunting ranges then you are very mistaken, and if you cant place a game bullet in the vitals and kill the animal quickly, then you shouldn't be pulling the trigger. Using match bullets on deer is a lazy mans practice, lazy because you can't be bothered to find a hunting bullet that will shoot well, its an anal practice, because you are so wound up about tiny groups with match bullets that you lose sight of the ultimate goal.
There are so many good hunting bullets available today that there is no excuse for using a match bullet on game. If you found that the Barnes X didn't work as well as the SMK for you, then i suggest you read up on what the Barnes X is designed for. There are bullets for all applications. it is up to us, the hunters to be knowledgable and interested enough to find out exactly what is available. The quest for knowledge should be un ending. It winds me up every time i see some one write about it on here. The game deserves better.
Pete

The match bullet argument has happened here many times and I will not get into it with you. You are one of the few here that are against them. You don't have to use them. I think that you are one of those people who feel their opinion is the only right one. Not everyone has the same view of hunting as you do. You need to open your mind a little. I don't agree with everyone but I am willing to listen and see others point of view. I see where you are coming from and agree with you on the lazy person killing something just to kill is wrong. I don't care what Barnes designed the X bullet for. There are some here that use the X bullet for all game including deer. That’s great. It works for them and that’s what matters. If someone wanted to they could disagree with any type of hunting. That’s just not good for the hunting crowd.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys who have posted on here asking about the use of SMK and Amax bullets on game. I would like to remind you that there is a reason game bullets exist and there is a reason why match bullets exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get such a kick out of these discussions...

Yep, there's a "reason" why bullet companies make all these designs. It's called MARKETING. And that's about all there is to it. It benefits the bullet makers ($$$) for us to keep buying the next new design, to over-specialize and burn tons of components tuning up 20 loads for every different purpose. I have one load for the Wolf - it's the most accurate and powerful thing I can imagine for anything in the United States short of a grizzly bear (and truth be told...well, nevermind...).

Do we honestly think my 210 JLK running 3300 fps is gonna bounce off an elk's side? Are we that inexperienced?

Do we think my 105 AMax at 3250 fps put just behind the shoulder of a deer is merely going to cause it gastric distress? Are we that inexperienced?

Come on - when you get a hot lead injection in the boiler room of the type described above - it's over, folks, and quick.

Am I suggesting taking head shots on Cape Buffalo or elephant with these loads?

Nope. That'd be silly - almost as silly as wondering whether a Matchking, a JLK or an AMax will kill a deer...

Well i wouldn't call me inexperienced, ive been hunting 30 years and hunt at least 3 days a week for over 10 months per year, i probably hunt more than any one on this board who doesn't do it for a living.
I'm not suggesting have 20 different loadings for each type of game.
I'm just telling you that if you insist on using match bullets on deer sooner or later you are gonna screw up.
If the Amax is capable as a deer bullet then some one should tell Hornady and they can cash in on the marketing. the SMK is not a game bullet.
Ive got particular loads for different classes of game.
Ive one that i'd use for varmints.
One that i use for small deer
one i use for larger deer,
one i use for pigs and tougher game. and one i'd use for dangerouse game.
and one i'd use for very dangerouse game.
to be honest i could probably group the varmints and small deer into one and use 1 bullet and probably group the larger deer and pigs into one and use 1. so i could then cover 100% of all my hunting wishes with 4 bullet types instead of 6.
all my hunting loads with hunting bullets will group under 1/2moa.some do hell of a lot better than that, I don't have to worry about a bullet coming apart before it reaches the vitals of going straight through doing little dammage. I chose my loads for the application i expect to encounter. Ive been down the road of bullet failures and ive learned my lesson. The game deserves better.
and with ref to me thinking i am always right,, not so. but i have enough experience not to advocate the use of match bullets on game in a place where in experienced folk might take it way out of context and where anti's might use it as ammunition against us.
Pete

Pete, I must tell you that you did exactly what the anti-hunter &amp; anti-gun groups do - you had a point and you mixed it up with propaganda and now the point you have is not even discussed. Whether or not it has merit!

I think that killing an animal over the internet is not hunting. Not even close. Its slaughter. Handicaped hunters have opportunity available to them and do not have to resort to the internet hunt. I think we as hunters have an obligation to keep our sport and those who participate in it on the right page or the anti's will eat us up.

With regards to matchkings or other match bullets on game, why comment in your post?
You are only going to start a heated thread and that is all that anyone will talk about. The match vs. hunting bullet debate is a dead horse on this site....no matter what side you are on. Your discussion of the internet hunt will never get off the ground.

I think you should remove the match bullet section of your post and start fresh with the topic of the internet hunt. I'm not saying your position with regards to bullets is right or wrong but rather that it is going to take away from your main point - internet hunting.

I also want add that Len has a "no ethics discussion" policy on this site because he wants to discuss topics related to LRH and we all have our own personal code of ethics.

I thought the topic of internet hunting was so far over the line that I do not consider it hunting and with that mindset I commented. I also think that these practices will cover us all with paint from the brush of the anti's.

Len, again I considered this general ethics and not personal ethics so I commented. Also, I'm wearing OD green socks so I figured it was ok. If I am wrong I apolgize....I'll put on different socks!

John M.. i didn't intend to mix anything, i just wanted to get all i had on my chest off it in one go. I wasn't aware of a no ethics policy on discussions on here. Ethics is as big a part of hunting as any bullet, barrel, action or scope.
To the contrary of what you might think, i am interested in the use of the Amax on game and i will be discussing the issue with Steve Hornady within a couple of weeks.
I also see a place for the Amax within military circles and LE if it is such a good game stopper, not sure about the ins and outs of the Hague convention regarding plastic tipped bullets.
Pete

[ QUOTE ]
Hary, there is a difference between a disabled hunter and a lard assed lazy slob with a blood lust.

I'm a lard assed lazy slob and I dont think it's right either. It's just for those who have too much money and never intend to eat anything that they kill. It's the age of the video game coming into reality.
Now the bullet debate----wound one and chase it (if your not too lazy) for 11.5 miles and you will change your tune. Sometimes the best placed shots don't have the effect they should. I know a guy who white tail hunts with a 17 Rem. "drop em dead in their tracks". But that caught up with him. Your Gameking and Matchking bullets aren't going to land too far apart from one another----so shoot the deer with a Gameking and save the Matchking for the range.

Cowboy, the problem is you ain't always presented with a shot that will let you get a match bullet into the vitals.
It would realy interest me to know how many deer per year the guys shooting them with match bullets are actualy shooting, I suspect it isn't very many. Varmint bullets on deer is just as irresponsible.
So i'll go first.
Ive shot 68 wild boar, 12 foxes, 47 roe deer, 14 fallow deer, 4 red deer, 1 seal, 2 pine martins, maybe 20 hares, 2 ferral cats, maybe 60 or so magpies, crows and jays all with game bullets during the hunting season that ended 1 hour ago. Thats 146 head of what could be called big game. and 84 varmints.shot at distances of between 2 meters out to 600m Of those 146 how many did i have to chase far, 1, that was a boar on a driven hunt that i unfortunatly gave to much lead and shot its face off, the though of it still haunts me. when it comes to taking game with rifle bullets then i think i have a valid opinion, and does it or does it not still say on a pack of SMK's, that they are not designed for use on game. If you shoot only 10 deer a year, then you maybe will be lucky and not have a major screw up with the use of match bullets, but i sure as hell hunt to much to risk it. I probably shoot more head of game per year than many professional hunters. Now i ain't braggin, i feel priviliged to be in a situation where i have so much hunting available to me, but would i risk using any bullet that stood even a 10% chance of not doing what i wanted it to do, NO.
Pete

Varmint Hunter, thankyou for that my friend. I will check it out with Mr Hornady and in the event of his recomendation i shall be trying them out on Roe deer.
Harv, i never said i hadn't had game bullet problems, i have,, ive had problems with bullets that where too hard for the game i used em on ( fails safes for instance) ive had corelokts come apart in my moderator, but most of the bullet problems we encounter come from poor bullet choice in relation to the game hunted.
on the numbers of game shot, i'm talking that many per season every season and not in a life time.
Pete

About us

My family and I welcome you. I started LRH back in 2001 to provide a friendly place where like-minded individuals could share information and ideas to help take their long range shooting and hunting to the next level.