>>> I also make sure when they arrive at a belay (invariably I am leading, so this is easy to do), that their primary anchor is the climbing rope (already tied to them), clove hitched to the belay/'powerpoint'/anchor.

M9- this surprised me a bit. So if you're on a multipitch affair, you will anchor yourself to the belay with a clove hitch of the climbing rope AND a daisy? Is this a safety concern (e.g., redundancy) or convenience (adjusting position relative the anchor)? Honestly I'm curious- I don't know why you would use both.

and just to troll a bit more, care to comment on one of the other "deal-breakers" from R&I?: "Has a climbing grade of any kind in their e-mail address" ... hehe

On 15/04/2014 Drake wrote:>>>> I also make sure when they arrive at a belay (invariably I am leading,>so this is easy to do), that their primary anchor is the climbing rope>(already tied to them), clove hitched to the belay/'powerpoint'/anchor.>>M9- this surprised me a bit. So if you're on a multipitch affair, you>will anchor yourself to the belay with a clove hitch of the climbing rope>AND a daisy? Is this a safety concern (e.g., redundancy) or convenience>(adjusting position relative the anchor)? Honestly I'm curious- I don't>know why you would use both.>
Yes, both*. It isn't necessary, but I find it helps when climbing with novices. Apart from the additional 'convenience' items listed in the post I made above...
Maybe it is just old fart paranoia, but I figure they will have to stuff up twice to go the distance, and the psychological reassurance is good for them and me!

(*It is not a hard and fast 'rule' that I always strictly adhere too, as it depends on the specific belay/setup, who is involved, experience factor of same etc etc.)

>and just to troll a bit more, care to comment on one of the other "deal-breakers">from R&I?: "Has a climbing grade of any kind in their e-mail address" ...>hehe
I don't find my User-ID a deal breaker. If you do, then I can live with that...☺
Heh, heh, heh.

>M9- this surprised me a bit. So if you're on a multipitch affair, you>will anchor yourself to the belay with a clove hitch of the climbing rope>AND a daisy? Is this a safety concern (e.g., redundancy) or convenience>(adjusting position relative the anchor)? Honestly I'm curious- I don't>know why you would use both.>
See instructions linked to above -
WARNING: Do not rely on only one anchor or connect to your anchors with only one piece of gear such as one Daisy Chain or one carabiner. Use multiple anchors and redundant connection equipment whenever possible.

You wouldn't want to go against manufacturers safety instructions now would you . . .??

>>>WARNING: Do not rely on only one anchor or connect to your anchors with only one piece of gear such as one Daisy Chain or one carabiner. Use multiple anchors and redundant connection equipment whenever possible.

>>>You wouldn't want to go against manufacturers safety instructions now would you . . .??

Eh, I frequently rely on a single point of protection to keep me alive, and I'm okay with that (e.g., I tie-in with one good knot, rather than several suspect knots).

>>> Yes, both*. It isn't necessary, but I find it helps when climbing with novices. Apart from the additional 'convenience' items listed in the post I made above...>>>Maybe it is just old fart paranoia, but I figure they will have to stuff up twice to go the distance, and the psychological reassurance is good for them and me!

There are people who can use them wisey and safely, but daisies are generally used by bumblies who haven't thought about all the issues. The PAS avoids those issues but it is another bit of gear. Once you acheive my magnificent mass every gram counts, so I avoid taking gear that can't be used for multiple purposes.

On 15/04/2014 harold wrote:>Interesting M9. But for most of those things - rethread lower off, abseil,>clipping cameras, passing gear a sling seems to do the job.

You are right, however it begs the question/s who are we talking about? & What have they got with them?

If sport climbers, then they are unlikely to be carrying a sling of any great length, unless it is to use as a lower-off thread?

My background is trad, preferably multipitch, so that is what I had in mind when I replied, and although I often carry long slings, I find the ability to tailor the 'tightness length' at a belay, with a daisy, a convenience that attracts me. Anything else that I can use it for is a bonus.

Re daisy vs PAS.
I won't be getting a PAS any time soon, as I find the daisy more versatile. I also use it for securing excess gear on the backpack to and from the climbing location, and find the small pocket adjustment ability, handy for that.

Re>on the negative side for the PAS/daisy, its static so even if you slip or slump on to the anchor it puts more force on your gear (not ideal).

Daisies come in nylon version (not so static), and spectra version (very static by comparison to nylon), but you are right harold about not being ideal to load up your gear (either way!).
;-)

On 15/04/2014 mikllaw wrote:>every gram counts

I like to think of carrying extra gear as training to keep my fitness.
;-)

On 15/04/2014 harold wrote:>and on the negative side for the PAS/daisy, its static

Not really correct, it depends what it's made of. Dyneema has very little stretch and can cause extraordinary forces with a relatively short fall.
There are PAS systems around made from dyneema as well as nylon. The daisies I own (and don't use) are nylon webbing.

In terms of clipping in, I often anchor with a sling/cordalette then tie off the rope as a backup. Two systems.

We need a "Dumb Ways To Die" cartoon for climbers. (non-Victorians will wonder what I'm referring to). Maybe a project for Dave J's spare time?

On 16/04/2014 phillipivan wrote:>I am always amazed at how much time people are prepared to spend discussing>relatively inane soft goods like dasies, and PASes. It almost as tedious>anchor construction debates.

"...I like to use three PAS chains at all times, because most climbing anchors have 2 bolts, and I always use the third to back it all up. In climbing, you always want a back up system in case one (or two) fail."

On 16/04/2014 phillipivan wrote:>I am always amazed at how much time people are prepared to spend discussing>relatively inane soft goods like dasies, and PASes. It almost as tedious>anchor construction debates.