<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, it is incredibly ludicrous to compare the NDS scene with the PC
Games scene, let alone XBOX360, PS2 and the DC. They are each their own
independent and unique scene, each with their own restrictions and goals. The
simple fact is, the NDS scene is not the PC Games scene, no matter how much
you may want it to be.

Protected PC games may need to be cracked, solely to get them working on a
computer. Computer's have no external medium as to which homebrew, loaders,
hacks, etc. are required to make a game work whereas the NDS does. The NDS
requires a flashcart in order to play homebrew, load ROM's and do many other
things. As you said "These Chinese manufacturers have only one model, to have
the most compatibility as they ARE RUNNING A BUSINESS." - this is indeed true
and they provide the end-user with a great service. As part of the role for a
flashcart manufacturer, it is their duty to enable compatibility on ROM's, by
doing so, they compete within their business model and this only benefits
the end-user as they are able to play any ROM they desire.

Sure, the reliance of a flashcard manufacturer to create compatibility is not
what the scene may want in an ideal world. Twenty years ago, it was all about
release groups making that compatibility via cracks (and by extension
cracktros), but back then, it was still all about running things on computers,
which is what the PC scene evolved from. The console scene, along with the
handheld scene eventually grew apart and became its own entities, its own
scene. Cracking will always remain a part of the scene, there is no denying
the history of the scene, however, everything has to evolve eventually.

With over 5 years of the NDS scene already, the paradigm has been rigidly
established. Cracking has become a thing of the past and has not become
necessary as most flashcarts can play protected games without having to do
anything, and if there is a game that is unplayable, it is quickly rectified
by the flashcart manufacturers so that they put to good use their own
business model. Unlike the PC scene, the NDS end-user still has to rely on
these flashcarts, as without them, they would not have a viable way of
playing ROM's (excluding emulators). The PC scene is self-sufficient,
therefore it requires its own cracks in order to remove any protection and
maintain compatibility across a multitude of computer formats.

The NDS Scene's paradigm has come to accept that flashcarts are a necessary
facet of the scene and by extension the work behind each flashcart to bring
the best compatibility for the end-user. Releasing pre-cracked games is great
for the short-term, it may allow a game to work on many different flashcarts,
but in the long-term, the flashcarts will have been updated and compatibility
will have to be changed in order to suite every cracked game, rather than just
suite the general repetitive protection methods that have been used over and
over. An example of this is the DSTWO flashcart, it detects protection methods
and bypasses them if it is recognised, thus the game will not need a crack or
even a firmware update to create compatibility. This all goes without
mentioning the compatibility problems that have been caused by intros and
cracks themselves eg. saving issues, unplayability, blank screens, etc.

The bickering of late has arisen from a single group, of whom had disappeared
for a few years, only to return trying to enforce a way that once was. The
simple fact is, things have changed since you were gone, they have all
improved for the better. Just because you prefer your old methods and
traditions, does not mean you are entitled to force the paradigm to revert
back 10 years. As we said, the NDS Scene has firmly established itself and has
moved on without you. Charles Darwin once said "Survival is ultimately
dependent on the ability to change and evolve", simply put "Adapt or die".

There is a reason why one ruleset won over the other, one is simply reinforcing
the established paradigm of today's NDS scene, and the other wants to turn
back time and pretend the NDS is equivalent to the PC.

The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE even allowed the bickering
group a chance at adapting to survive and here is how:
* By allowing you to continue releasing hacked/cracked/introed releases
* Allowing cracks to be made for game releases, however only as patches
(which only benefits the end-user and brings the best of both worlds)
Although, in order to fully adhere to the rules, all you had to do was make
two simple changes:
1. Include the region in the dirname (more on this later)
2. Use RAR format for packing games (more on this later also)

You argue that "Considering NDS alone is 5 years old and has been doing .zip
from GBA days, how can you nuke for .rar overnight as well as region tagging?",
by the end of the GBA's lifespan, it was beginning to show its age on the
scene. The entire .zip and .diz format was becoming defunct, the scene itself
had evolved and the .rar and .sfv format took reign solely for the reason that
it provided greater compatibility, ease of use, more information and provided
a method of file integrity verification. The GBA was still influenced by its
predecessor when it came around, the .zip format was prominent and everybody
was happy enough to use it. However, .zip itself is also a relic of a time
gone by; its use originating from the BBS days. The RAR format simply has many
more benefits for the scene, and by enforcing it as a rule, it will ensure
releases are packed in a manner that strives for quality. Also the simple fact
of the potential size of NDS games further makes the .zip format look vastly
outdated. A 500MB .zip file would be prone to more errors and would not be as
highly regarded by sites when compared to its equivalent RAR size (at least
with RAR it can be raced much faster and have on the fly integrity checks).

Lastly, the RAR format has not been introduced to the NDS scene overnight, it
took one brave group (XPA) to see the benefits it provides and help positively
evolve the scene. It took several months for groups to acknowledge the RAR
format, accept it and use it. It has since proven to be a great format for
packing releases and has shown itself to be vastly superior to the defunct
.zip format.

"On a region free system, region tagging is NOT required for the first english
release. This has been done on XBOX360: Final.Fantasy.XIII.X360-Allstars, PS2:
Black.PS2DVD-Allstars, DC: Sonic_Adventure_DC-KALISTO, etc."
The NDS is marketed as a region free system, which it is. However, the games
still have regions despite that advertisement. It is important to note the
region within the dirname as this clears any and all confusion on the matter.
Your rule "region tagging is NOT required for the first english release"
derives from the history of the scene again and has been in common practice
for at least 20 years (although never stated anywhere, it was implied). Once
again, the NDS scene has established itself to require region tagging, this
form of tagging has been used for decades and for a system such as the NDS,
and to an extent the GBA and GBC, tagging is crucial. It is not like the PC
scene where one version of a game will suffice, NDS games are developed and
published with specific regions, although the regions have no importance on
the functionality of a game (excluding the DSi), it does exist and would be
foolish to not acknowledge it. By not including a region tag, you cause
confusion and show your ignorance to the rest of the world (English speaking
or not). The scene is global, and region tagging shows the rest of the world
from where a game is from, therefore it provides more information on a release.
So in an abstract way, it shows the scene some respect.

Those games from other systems you mentioned, they all vary in their form of
being free of region locking. The XBOX360 has what could be classed as "REAL"
region-free games, Final.Fantasy.XIII.X360-Allstars being one of them. It is
the same game, same disc, same version as you would buy in any English
speaking country around the world, therefore it is not region locked.

Black.PS2DVD-Allstars: Allstars always were living in their own world, they
never used a region tag and it caused lots of problems for other groups at
the time. Not to mention the PS2 does have region issues, therefore it is
important to note whether a game is PAL or NTSC. This allows the end-user to
know whether they can play it fine on their television sets or not or whether
they would need to play with settings on their televisions to get a decent
picture. At the time, televisions weren't as advanced as they are today, and
if something couldn't play in its correct region, you would get cropping and
frame rates issues.

Sonic_Adventure_DC-KALISTO: The Dreamcast is far too old of a system to be
bringing in comparisons for a modern system. The DC scene also has a world of
difference to what the scene is today, whether you want to accept it or not.
Back to the point, the Dreamcast had similar issues as the PS2 (ignoring the
chronology here), PAL/NTSC, frame rates, cropping, it was all here. KALISTO
did a great job at removing region protections and other things. Slightly
digressing, in today's modern scene, a release like this one would not be
tolerated; where the game has been hacked to a point where it loses quality
(stero to mono sound and lowered bitrates primarily).

Now to the fun part, as you picked apart the groups of
The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE. Here we present you an
analysis of the groups that signed The.NintendoDS.Release.Standards.2010-NDS:
DFG, PYRiDiA, SQUiRE, SUXXORS, SweeTnDs, VENOM, XPA
DFG: Inactive
PYRiDiA: Did not sign (we asked him and a log of this has been saved)*
SQUiRE: Inactive*
XPA: Known p2p group (we have proof, or just take a look at the numerous
scene-notices regarding this group already.)

*Both of these groups had long since died, however, in one way or another
(how, we will not go into detail here) they had merged with VENOM, who are
also known as SUXXORS. So that makes FOUR groups being one in the same, out of
a possible SEVEN groups. If you plan on re-releasing some ruleset with all of
the recent joke groups you have created, you're not fooling anybody either.

So how can four groups, two of which are groups who are incredibly minor
groups that are relatively inactive (DFG and SweeTnDs) effectively create
a ruleset that represents the NDS Scene? Simply put, they can't. Especially
not when they choose to abandon the rest of the scene and pretend like the
scene is in the year 2000 all over again.

You also accuse a lot of the groups that signed
The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE as being known p2p groups.
However your accusations fall on deaf ears without any proof. And we know
how good you are at being unable to find proof, even when it is given to you
(see the recent Bokujou_Monogatari_Futago_no_Mura fiasco).

Just because a group is inactive in releasing, does not mean they are not
around (this applies to your groups as well, although we all know SQUiRE has
long left being active on the scene). We have logs of every group that
signed agreeing to the rules, even TRM and WetNWild who you accuse had never
signed it, why don't you try asking the group leaders instead of relying on
long departed former members to act on their behalf?

As both rulesets were rushed to release in order to counter one another,
The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE was distributed and signed
by many more groups, therefore a larger cross-section and variety of the
scene. Thus, it actually represents the NDS scene. BAHAMUT stated in
Spongebob_Truth_Or_Square_USA_NDS-BAHAMUT that they DID sign it, however at
the time were not aware of what other groups signed. This is not entirely
true as the final version of the ruleset was distributed to everybody and
they were given 24 hours to voice any concerns. Everybody was ecstatic to
see so many groups named, but no issue had arisen regarding the background
of said groups. EXiMiUS did agree, although their concerns were lost in
translation (but we still love you!).

The example you gave of unworking games is rather ironic. If you had bothered
to read the nfo for Digimon_Story_Lost_Evolution_JPN_NDS-BAHAMUT, you would
clearly see that it states "It works fine on DSTWO." The DSTWO has already
been discussed earlier. The release in question may not work on other,
inferior carts, but that is no fault of the scene. If it were released
pre-cracked, how are flashcart manufacturers meant to update the compatibility
and workability of their product in regards to game protection?

How is anybody supposed to take The.NintendoDS.Release.Standards.2010-NDS
seriously when the group that created it, don't adhere to their own rules?
Examples:
* "The release must work." This is subjective to individual flashcarts and
firmware versions. It is ridiculous to enforce such a rule. For examples
of this, just read any gaming forum relating to the ROM's (which we know
you enjoy trolling) and you'll see a huge mixed bag of people who have
it working and those who don't.
* "The .NFO must include which cart(s) and relevant firmware the patch was
tested on." and "Cracks should be tested, and it should be stated within
the .NFO which cart(s) the crack was tested on." Many of your releases do
not adhere to this rule, it is also a rule in the other ruleset, yet when
nuked on it, you still refuse to accept it.

We will not bother going into detail on the ruleset, as it is invalid and
void anyway (meaning it is treated as if it had never existed or happened).
This is for all the reasons stated above as well as a multitude of other
reasons including:
* Bad layout (multiple rules within one rule number)
* Contradicting rules (details related to working releases)
* No date and time of enactment
* Insufficient amount of groups signed (see earlier paragraph for discussion)
* Does not represent paradigm of NDS scene.

"The first working release wins the race, that's how it
is for 0day, PC and other sections, so I beg of you, NDS Scene, please evolve
just as PC has with clone and cracked releases can co-exist."
Once again, the NDS scene is not the PC games scene or any other scene. It is
its own scene and follows its own evolutionary path. The branch that the other
ruleset tries to enforce is a branch that has already grown long ago and has
since died, it is no longer part of the tree of life. The branch that the
The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE grows on flourishes and
allows for both diverging factions to co-exist and live upon a branch of peace.
It accepts everything the previous branch built (clean releases/cracks/etc.),
and only denies the evolutionary dead ends (.zip format/misleading tagging/
universal compatibility issues/unnecessary removal of game data/etc.).

There is no reason why ONE group can't make two simple changes so that they can
finally live in peace in today's scene which has evolved towards prosperity and
success. Without accepting the rules, their battle will only continue on a
downward spiral leading only to further ridicule. Act wisely, adapt and live
peacefully. Thank you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Might as well also have the thing that kicked it all off (although I believe Houkago_Shounen_JPN_NDS-iND is the present "earliest known AP" rom).

Quoted from QUOTE:

Over the last few months, there have been numerous nuke wars and various
releases of the same game by different groups. This all started by the
first game that had antipiracy protection:

Final_Fantasy_Crystal_Chronicles_Rings_Of_Fate_USA_NDS-HugeCock

Since Final Fantasy, there are various types of protections varying from
custom to different versions of dsprotect. These protections can be best
compared to the PC scene. For Nintendo NDS, there are different cart
manufacterers that allow a user to play a dumped game image ie "rom."

These manufacterers are mostly chinese based and have no or unofficial support.
These Chinese manufacterers have only one model, to have the most compatibility
as they ARE RUNNING A BUSINESS. They are in turn, making a profit. Some people
have suggested that by removing protections, these cart manufacterers are unable
to improve their hardware to combat the new protections that are always being
updated. Let's put this theory to test shall we?
With Pokemon_SoulSilver_USA_NDS-XPA / Pokemon_HeartGold_USA_NDS-XPA
and Prince_of_Persia_The_Forgotten_Sands_EUR_INTERNAL_NDS_DSi-DSperate,
it was fixed after a long period of time on akaio but took other teams a while
to steal a fix and most couldn't run these games still. This begs a question,
since when is the "real" scene EVER had to rely on p2p and forum cracks. In
any other section this is not allowed, WHY should it be allowed in NDS. The
scene IS about cracking and releasing working games. That is exactly what we
expect from the PC scene. Our favorite FPS and other PC games being cracked
by our favorite groups where there is respect and honor amongst the scene and
competition (something that seems to be lacking in NDS).

In PC scene there are 1:1 releases that are "clone" but then cracked again
later. An example is: Pro.Cycling.Manager.2009.CloneDVD-AVENGED
and Pro.Cycling.Manager.2009-SKIDROW. Neither should dupe each other. They
are both good. IF there is an antipiracy protection, it should be tagged as
such and cracked should be allowed and not be considered a dupe. IF you can not
crack, why don't you work with a group that could crack it or tag it as
PROTECTED or CLONE or something? A great example is the recent NDS pre where
two rival groups came together: Dragon_Quest_IX_NDS-XENOM. Good for XPA and
Venom to put their differences aside to get a great game cracked.

A few months ago, there was talk about the idea of doing rulesets with one idea
in mind: How to handle the cracks and protections. Unfortunately, due to
political reasons, the section did NOT want to work with rival groups but
instead ended up with two different rulesets:

where basically two different sets of groups wrote and signed their own rules.
The problem is on The.Official.NintendoDS.Ruleset.2010.NDS-CONSOLE MULTIPLE
groups have stated that they didn't even sign it such as EXiMUS as found in
Sherlock_Holmes_DS_and_the_Mystery_of_Osborne_House_EUR_MULTi6_NDS-EXiMiUS nfo
This first of all questions the validity of the ruleset but the biggest
question are the actual groups that have "signed" it

2CH: Known p2p group
6rz: Known p2p group
BAHAMUT: Spongebob_Truth_Or_Square_USA_NDS-BAHAMUT stated they didnt
agree to sign with all the p2p groups
DeNovo: Inactive
EXiMiUS: never signed
Loli: Known p2p group
MainichiHentaiShimbun: known p2p group
NukeThis: Known p2l group
OneUp: Known p2l group
SCZ: Known p2p group / inactive
TRM: never signed / inactive
WetNWild: never signed / inactive
WRG: inactive, now a new tag

Not to pick on one ruleset vs. the other but this right here already makes
this ruleset INVALID. Even though there are nukers that still base their
nukes on this rulesets such as "packing being rar at 5 meg pieces" and "region
tagging." Considering NDS alone is 5 years old and has been doing .zip from
GBA days, how can you nuke for .rar overnight as well as region tagging?
On a region free system, region tagging is NOT required for the first english
release. This has been done on XBOX360: Final.Fantasy.XIII.X360-Allstars, PS2:
Black.PS2DVD-Allstars, DC: Sonic_Adventure_DC-KALISTO, etc. Considering none
of the groups listed actually crack protections and try having rules for cracks
it begs the question? Do you want to wait for p2p to do the cracks?

When groups are trying to make the scene less p2p and for once, ignoring p2p
releases and doing legit scene releases, why should you release protected
releases and act like its not your problem and make it so you depend on p2p
such as known p2p / forum user rudolph to crack your releases for you? Is this
not counterintuitive? The scene tradition is about being 'first working wins'
but instead its as if we welcome p2p and we support p2p and chinese companies
that are making a business off flash carts. If there are releases that are
useless till a crack is made, why isn't it nuked? if the release is NOT
working to these users such as Digimon_Story_Lost_Evolution_JPN_NDS-BAHAMUT
where there are no good p2p cracks, what are we doing this for? Sure maybe a
game works on one flash cart, but what happens when a new protection comes or
updated protection and makes that one particular cart useless? The scene was
about cracking protections and other things, not a kiddie racing game where a
monkey can dump a game. The first working release wins the race, that's how it
is for 0day, PC and other sections, so I beg of you, NDS Scene, please evolve
just as PC has with clone and cracked releases can co-exist.

lol, the NDS scene is a joke. Literally. The only, and I mean only group I even respect as a release group is BAHAMUT. Every other group is just so childish. It seems most "sceners" in the NDS scene have no idea what the scene is even about. BAHAMUT pretty much ruled the NDS scene once they came in.

EDIT: I take that back, ACCUCiSiON(sp?), has caught my interest recently too.

But I agree teams should just release the dumps clean and let the flashcart teams fix the AP. If the release group can fix a dump to work on more carts, make a separate patch and they can add whatever intro they want, but make it where you have to patch a clean dump with their fix, not force a "fixed" dump on you without a clean one to back it up. That way, once your flashcart's team fixes it, you can switch to the clean dump.

Personally, I'm content to wait until my flashcart's team fixes AP in dumps to play my free slurpy downloads.

But I agree teams should just release the dumps clean and let the flashcart teams fix the AP. If the release group can fix a dump to work on more carts, make a separate patch and they can add whatever intro they want, but make it where you have to patch a clean dump with their fix, not force a "fixed" dump on you without a clean one to back it up. That way, once your flashcart's team fixes it, you can switch to the clean dump.

Personally, I'm content to wait until my flashcart's team fixes AP in dumps to play my free slurpy downloads.

Click to expand...

This is exactly how I feel about this. Personally I don`t care who dumps anything, if it gets eventually dumped but the game should be available as a clean dump first and as Rayder said they could either provide a separate patch for the game immediately with the clean dump (which might as well add the intro...) or provide a patched rom (which should not be numbered) next to the clean rom...

Other then that I don`t care for these things (didn`t even read the text tbh...), if I´m actually able to play the games