For some unknown reason you guys seem to like Pathfinder. Apparently you guys don't seem to mind the fact that it's a clunky, broken son of 3.5. But hey, you guys know what I think of it, and you still seem to like it, at least partly because you know it.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Give the people what they want, I suppose, but it's tough for me to compromise my outlook. So here's some options on how this goes down.

1: Switch to Fate. This is my preferred option, and one you guys have already rejected, but allow me to make yet another appeal. Fate is a fantastic and beautiful system. It's elegant in it's simplicity. It offers endless options, but remains balanced. Almost any character you could imagine can be made with Fate, yet it resists the "God-modding" that Talon so despises. Personally I love simple systems because I view too many rules as getting in the way of great role-playing. I know that rules must exist to regulate things and to avoid the "god-modding" that Talon talks about. He's right, but IMO the best rule systems allow the most freedom possible while eliminating that element. I feel like Fate does that, and it's hands-down my favorite system. But apparently you guys don't want to learn some really simple rules.

2: GURPS Lite or GURPS Ultra-Lite. You all know that I hate GURPS. It's too rules-heavy for me. But GURPS Lite and Ultra-Lite exist. News to me. I've given them a quick glance and would prefer them to Pathfinder. They don't have many of the issues that I feel Pathfinder has. As much as I dislike GURPS, if you guys wanted to switch to GURPS Lite or Ultra-Lite, I'd make that switch in less than a heartbeat. Hell, I'm suggesting it.

3. Stick with Pathfinder…E6. Change nothing, keep your pathfinder characters, but just know that we're in E6 now. If you guys want to continue with Pathfinder, I'll go along with you, but we'll be using E6 rules. If you're not familiar with E6 rules, here's the breakdown: Nothing changes from the regular rules until you reach level 7. E6 stands for Epic 6, which basically means that epic levels start at level 6. If we continue playing Pathfinder, we'll be using E6, which means you'll never get to level 7, when you get to when you would otherwise reach level 7, you'll instead just get a feat. It's a 3.5 thing meant to more closely mirror the progression of the heros of song and story. In 3.5 or Pathfinder, a character at level 20 could pretty easily take on an an entire army if said army was made up people of level 1 or 2, which they should be. This is rather silly, and while fictional characters often help win battles and come out of them just fine, there are few who can simply defeat an entire enemy army. Further, from a mechanical perspective E6 goes a long way towards solving the problem of linear martial classes and exponential casters (the idea is that in 3.5 and Pathfinder martial classes generally improve in a linear manner and caster classes improve in an exponential one, and level 6 seems generally to be where the martial and caster power curves meet, and beyond that the latter can overtake the former, often greatly).

To sum it up: I would like to switch systems to Fate (as you probably know) and I would be willing to switch systems to GURPS Lite or GURPS Ultra-Lite if people wanted to, but if you guys want to stay with Pathfinder, then we'll be using E6 rules, which were originally meant for 3.5 but can be adapted to Pathfinder very easily, and those rules won't effect anyone until level 7 would have been reached.

Comparing liking pathfinder to a mental disorder caused by severe traumatic hostage situations that can in no way be equated to playing a game and having a positive experience, and in doing so making light of said mental disorder… Classy Willl, real fucking classy. You should probably think about exactly how problematic a statement is before you pull it off of 4chan and spout it at people. Seriously, I might have considered respecting you at some point.

I suggested e6 when the prospect of changing to pathfinder was first mentioned. If we are doing this have you considered capstones? Or are you opting out of those.

I have read enough of fate to know that I don't like it, so I'll say this right now. I will not play in a fate game. I don't like rules light systems because if I were going to do something that light on rules I could just play text based shit on forums. Which I don't want to do.

Also you Misrepresented my position on caster, not surprising since you were not paying attention to anything I said. My position on casters is that they are "no where near as unbalanced as you claim" not that they were simply balanced.

"Typical pathfinder player logic" Yes, you know why? The only people I have talked to that make the kind of claims you do are people who have either played little, played 3.5+pathfinder or not played pathfinder at all. That logic is typical of a pathfinder player because it is valid.

I'm legitimately growing impatient with you on this. No, no I'm just out of patience. You clearly have no desire to open your mind to the possibility that the "someone else's opinion" you have may not be 100% accurate to the truth or how you actually feel if you give the fucking system a chance. So if you are going to keep whining about it and making side shots at it I'm either going to spend my saturday doing something other then listen to you be a bitch or I'm going to take over as DM. If the group is willing obviously.

My suggestion for the problems Will is having with running a campaign is beating the hell out of him and no longer allowing him to DM anything, ever. I knew it was the intellectually superior path to blow off the Mouse Guard campaign and all of this is pretty much supporting this stance.

If Brian isn't going to run a campaign of some sort the only purpose to going their is just to hang out and consume all the alcohol… All of it.

Dude if you want to passive agressively whine-bully people into playing the system you want us to play then count me out.
If you actually want to try different systems making an obnoxious post on the website with opinions from 4chan (lrn 2 decent sources) is not the way to endear anyone to it.

I second the latter part of Justin's suggestion. Will, maybe you just aren't up to DMing for this group.

Also evidently you lied to them. You never suggested playing 3.5. The closest thing to that you did was was off hand saying you could just add martial adepts to pathfinder and remove martial classes. Which is fucking retarded because it would destroy the balance pathfinder has.

And another fucking thing. How the fuck are you "working your ass off to keep things balanced" by trying to give monks more power they don't need, banning spells you don't need to because they were balanced by 5 fucking thousand hours of test play and lastly trying to add broken ass classes from one of the most breakable books in 3.5 to pathfinder?! You have LITERALLY had to do Nothing to balance the game! You just keep proving that you don't know what you are talking about and acting as though you do.