To be fair to Lenovo, reviewing the IdeaPad Yoga shouldn't really be all about Windows 8. After all, this touchscreen Ultrabook – that bends over backwards to become a fully fledged tablet – is a well crafted piece of hardware with engineering merits of its own. So what, if it runs Windows 8? So do a lot of PCs these days. The …

Re: Interesting but...

Can we please get over it, they're just large icons. It's XP all over again, whinging on and on about how it's fischer price and not "proper" in some way. Why do people need to let everyone know that they don't like Win8 again and again and again and again.

Re: Interesting but...

@Eadon: YAWN

Please change the record, it's very, very tedious. I'm actually starting to wonder if you're really a bot - it's day in day out, all times of day and night the same formulaic "everything MS does is rubbish" comments that suggest you are.

Re: Interesting but...

>I see an issue with that, as the keys may just inhale dust, fluff and other matter when placed on anything other than a very clean, flat surace.

Maybe, but I can image that turning the keyboard upside down will help dislodge debris, compared to a conventional sky-facing keyboard. Add to that the vibration from the speakers (which play through the keyboard, according to the review), which may help expel dust.

(Shudders at memories of turning keyboards upside down when working in a hot-desking call centre)

(Mine's the laptop with the as-of-yet untested spill-proof laptop keyboard. Sod's Law dictates that if I didn't have a spill proof keyboard, I would have spilt coffee on it by now)

Re: Interesting but...

Re: Interesting but...

@JDX - "If touch-screen PCs take off then OSX and Linux distros will suddenly be rushing to do something similar to create a touch-friendly UI."

Haven't we seen Microsoft try this twice before with XP and Windows 7 on touch-screen PCs? One of the Universities I did my Cisco course at bought a whole load of machines for a IT suite that had an intergrated touch-screen layers built into the monitor. Trying to use a desktop OS with a 27" monitor... useless. As Jobs rightly said, "who would want to use a touch-screen interface on a conventional monitor?" You definately get tired arms if you continuously did that.

I'm quite surprised Microsoft or any other OS making haven't clocked onto making flat touch-screen enabled keyboards that can change keyboard layout depending on application etc and offer features that can interact with the main OS on the screen infront of you instead.

M$ have tried to be clever and become an opportunist to embed both desktop and tablet ideologies into one OS. Personally, they've been stupid about it. Apple and Linux Distro's will never to react in such a way because Windows 8 will die harder than M$ it tried to get it off the ground.

@ the-it-slayer

While the Jobs argument is valid enough on vertical screens, the problem there is completely unrelated to the software, but rather in the hardware vendor implementations - so while on an iMac, touch would be bad, on a Macbook, it would be slightly better and a tablet better still.

This, of course, is not Microsoft's problem, more the hardware vendors not being terribly imaginative. Of late, there have been some attempts to innovate here, such as the Yoga, and (for those who don't want to waddle with Penguins or eat the Apple), Microsoft, with 8, finally have a tablet interface that is pretty friendly. To balance that last comment though, I do agree with a comment made earlier - this doesn't mean that Microsoft should be applauded for making the user suffer when using a keyboard and mouse. A simple option 'Touch or Mouse' would have been marvellous - perhaps with driver support so if you convert a laptop to tablet it switches. Perhaps Win8 SP1...?

@GitMeMyShootinIrons RE: "A simple option 'Touch or Mouse' would have been marvellous -

.....................perhaps with driver support so if you convert a laptop to tablet it switches. Perhaps Win8 SP1...?"

There I agree 110% despite the fact that I am nowhere near as hostile to Win8 as many here are. That type of change and at the very least a decent tutorial with the os is the absolute minimum as far as I am concerned. In addition of course the capacity to boot directly to desktop and to use "apps" in window form in desktop such they can be used like any other program when one is in "keyboard and mouse" mode.

Re: Interesting but...

Don't forget the innovative, amazingly overpriced and underselling GriD Convertible, with Windows for Pen. I have a GriD/Tandy/AST prototype (I worked on these) somewhere, bought as scrap when the factory was closed down. I even have the pen. Wonder if it still works... Hmm. Might need to repair the battery pack.

Re: @ the-it-slayer

@GitMeMyShootinIrons - "A simple option 'Touch or Mouse' would have been marvellous - perhaps with driver support so if you convert a laptop to tablet it switches. Perhaps Win8 SP1...?"

Would be nice to see an OS be complete for whatever interface you throw at it. I personally think any attempt at including such a mode switcher in SP1 would be too late. Microsoft are throwing everything they've got at us at the moment. Hints of imaginative practises in their adverts to ramming the Surface as a "cool and trendy" device that shows us no practical use for the tablet. Microsoft is totally confused. That's my worry as the direction will be all over the place unless someone high up there takes charge and sorts it out.

Apple have tried to do some sort of cross-over with the App Store in a desktop environment (it works) and adding elements of App Launching via a collabrative grid with larger icons (not so sure as we still have the main row at the bottom that acts as a shortcut to apps). I can only imagine they looked to merge OS X and iOS together at some stage. At the moment, that's not possible with the different chipsets (ARM and Intel) to work around. Only if Apple are brave enough to ditch Intel at their low-end desktops/laptops (Mac Mini and MacBook Air) might we see a slow merge.

Linux... I dare to think if any distro creator will be brave enough. I'd like to see an open source demo of a UI that works with both.

Re: Win-8 is Hideous

Re: Win-8 is Hideous

Re: Win-8 is Hideous

>Secondly why use a virus-susceptible, resource-hungry OS that is four years behind the curve?

Because, as has been stated before, it runs the software that we need it to. No Windows user will claim that Windows is perfect- far from it - but Linux, despite its virtues, isn't without a few headaches of its own. True, some of those headaches are imposed upon it externally (e.g. driver support), but some are its own (e.g. naming conventions)

I genuinely hope that that Linux does get to the point that most people can choose to use it*, but in the mean time don't suggest that cures all ills. If you want Windows users to take your advice, don't tell them that Windows is not fit for purpose, because they know that to be demonstrably untrue, and thus it damages your credibility.

*(though ultimately, if every OS was solid, reliable and ran everything they wanted it to, then the user wouldn't care which OS they used, and therefore the only meaningful choice would be between GUIs)

Re: Win-8 is Hideous

>Pure FUD. Linux is a kernel. Android has a Linux kernel. Android is Linux branded "Android" and owns over 75% >of the mobile market.

>So I reckon that Linux has already got to the point that most people can choose to use it, don't you?

For gawds sake Eadon, you know bloody well I was talking about desktop/laptop OSs (this is the thread about a laptop, I hope you noticed), and don't dodge the point by playing with semantics; nobody can use a a pure kernel, so excuse me if I don't write "Linux-based operating system" or "Linux kernal plus drivers plus GUI" or whatever. I've treated you with respect and given you the benefit of the doubt, but you're just behaving like a prick now.

>Also, on the desktop I would consider it not controversial to wager that Linux Mint is a damned sight easier to >use than Win 8.

Actually, it is easier to just add some 3rd party software (as mentioned in the article) to Win8 to restore familiar functionality than it would be for a user to learn new conventions as they would with a Linux distro. (I've installed Mint on a Thinkpad- and it took a lot of faffing to get the audio working.)

Shit, you tell people that Linux is super easy, but then in the same breath berate them over the use of 'OS' instead of 'kernel'. How is that going to encourage the naively curious to try Linux? It ain't. You're coming across as an agent provocateur.

Re: Win-8 is Hideous. Really?

Re: Win-8 is Hideous

Had a similar experience. Burmese NGO got 20 virus-infected W7 laptops that were unusable. I ran Mint 13 MATE off a USB stick to demonstrate Linux. Sold! Installed it on the director's machine in 20 min. LibreOffice does everything he needs, networking out of the box, printing perfect. He went on the install on other staff kit as dual-boot, just in case. Staff, after two weeks, boot straight into Mint. It's really so easy.

Lenovo offers a choice of Intel Core i3, i5 and i7 CPUs with the IdeaPad Yoga 13 and I’ve the 1.9GHz Core i7-3517U model with 4GB RAM here. Its smaller 11in Windows RT companion, the Yoga 11 is an ARM-based alternative and can perform the same bendy tricks but has limited software options.

There was an interesting many-paged article on Arstechnica about the Metro framework being an attempt to atone for past sins... MS hope that it will become the way to write software for Windows machines, GUI aside.

As for ARM vs x86, there was a good article on Tomshardware... basically, ARM is efficient at doing nothing, but consumption ramps up quickly when under load. Intel have a more efficient memory controller (and currently, fab process) and ARM isn't yet fully up and running with 64bit.

Interesting times, but leave your conspiracy-theories and name calling at home, would ya? You won't convince anyone to your views with an attitude like that.

Re: @Dave 126

@Eadon - I work in backup, I analyse customers' sites and recommend software and hardware to do their data protection. I've not seen a single ARM server deployed in any company ever. Now, I admit that I only work in large enterprises, but as I've seen how many FTSE100/Fortune 500 companies do their backups I would have thought that I would have come across at least one by now, were it being seriously used anywhere.

Don't get me wrong - I like ARM, I run RISC OS and Linux on my R-PI and have fond memories of using Archies when my school got a couple, I've just never heard of it being used in a datacentre.

Re: Question:

I think it comes down to availability of Bluetooth and easy of use.

The times may be changing, but many consumer laptops traditionally lack Bluetooth chips. Their USB dongle solution goes into any USB port and it "just works". No pairing process required. Bluetooth requires enabling discovery and going through the pairing process which differs by Bluetooth stack installed on the computer.

The other benefit for Logitech is that they don't have to pay for a Bluetooth license. The more they use their own proprietary wireless technology, the more those development costs are spread out so it becomes cheaper per device.

Re: Question:

Logitech make bluetooth mice and keyboards but their proprietary stuff is better.

The devices are paired with the dongle, several devices can be paired with one dongle and vice versa. Once you've paired the devices (and if you buy a kit it's done for you) they behave like a wired keyboard and mouse.

Want to move from one computer to another, just unplug the dongle and stick it in the other computer. Doesn't matter what that device is as long as it has support for USB mouse/keyboard it will just work.

Bluetooth pairing depends on the quality of the bluetooth software on the computer. You have to place the device in a discoverable mode then get the computer to search then supply a pin and if you're lucky then it works but the next day it might be working or you might be back to square one.

Also my logitech mouse lasts 18 months on a single AA battery, they keyboard can go for 3 years. Bluetooth devices need charging once a week or new batteries once a month.

The concept of bluetooth is great but I've always found it to be a major let down where HID is concerned.

Re: Question:

@Fuzz and JSS

Thanks guys!

I was just curious about a possible way to free up a USB port... my current machine has plenty, but the trend seems to reduce the number! I guess a good number of laptop owners make do with the touchpad, though I couldn't do without a free-scrolling wheel and a middle button I can use as a modifier to mouse movement.

I was thinking about the idea of Logitech paying OEMs to incorporate their dongles into laptops - giving the user an incentive to buy Logitech HID instead of MS or Razor- but I don't think the sums would support doing so.

Re: Question:

I have been using a Logitech BT M555b mouse for 3½ years now with my ancient HP laptop and it works perfect, especially the fast scrolling function is great. I use two AA rechargeables and replace them every 4 weeks with about 12 hours of work/day. I definitely plan to migrate it to my Yoga