Forum: Reference Library - entries, requests, etc.

Discussing: Races and peoples

Races and peoples

Foolishly sticking my head above the parapet....
I know there was a long discussion about races and peoples for (I think) the purpose of classifying characters in their bios, but I think I have a slightly different question or two. (And if this has been dealt with elsewhere, let me know and I'll gladly shut up and go away. The more I started looking into this, the more I realised some of the information I wanted is in the Resources section, just more hidden than I perhaps expected.)
I'm about to try and get a challenge going focusing around some of the more "primitive" races in M-e: the Lossoth and both types of Drúedain (first age and third age) for instance. I wanted to check some facts, but couldn't find entries on any of them. (Yes, I know, that means I should create some, doesn't it?)
Anyway, what I realised was that I didn't know where in Resources to find "peoples" or "races". I eventually worked out they were under Character Bios. Which kind of makes sense but wasn't immediately obvious to me.
So I have two questions.
1) I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but should we have a separate "Peoples and Races" section to cover information on these topics? I'm happy for them too stay in Character Bios, but if that's the case I think we need some way of making it clearer that IS where you find them.
2) Does anyone want to help me compile a list of entries still needed? (And I would love to know if some of these have been covered already and I'm just missing finding the information!) And yes, I will take on producing some of these entries. The peoples or races I'm mentioning in my challenge are:
Lossoth
Drúedain (first age)
Drúedain (third age)
I'm also mentioning various kinds of orcs (Uruks, Uruk-Hai, Mordor orcs....) so perhaps the Orcs bio needs extending?
I've also noted some of the major divisions between the Elves, which I found were in the general Elves bio. When I thought to look there. If more details were compiled, would it be a good idea to have separate bios for each division?
3) Ok, turns out I actually have three questions because I'm wondering if some of this would be better covered in research articles rather than bios. Although we already have bio entries for, say, Bardings and Beornings, don't we?
Cheers, Liz
PS while I have your attention, the counts for research articles seem to be off for some reason - for instance, I looked at Elves: Realms which says it has four articles, but only two were displayed when I clicked on it. Similarly for Humans: Realms - it says 8 articles but only 6 came up.

Re: Races and peoples

Hi Liz! Oh, this is exciting, because I've been thinking about adding info for Easterlings and I've got a few notes stashed away for Orcs, and have seen a couple things about Dwarves, and really wanted to see the subspecies of Elves featured more prominently... oh, and the groups of Hobbits, too (which may already be in their Bio, I haven't checked). (And BTW we don't even have a main entry for Men.)
Foolishly sticking my head above the parapet....
Oh, dear Liz! Trust me, we're all friends here, and we are unarmed, I promise! *Pushes the assault-crossbow into the closet with her foot...*
1) I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but should we have a separate "Peoples and Races" section to cover information on these topics?
I think that adding a new major section is a lot of work, which I would support doing if the rest of our team (especially Ang!) wants to, but I would be just as comfortable using the Bios section.
If we continue using the Bios section, I'd like to see separate entries for each subrace, to really make it more obvious that we have that information. For example: "Elves - Sindar" or "Men - Easterlings" or "Dwarves - Longbeards" or "Orcs - Uruk-hai" or "Hobbits - Stoors". (We could also use "Elves: Sindar", but I'm not sure if the colon would confuse the search function, which is not very reliable.)
In addition (okay, brainstorming mode here), we could have overview entries like "Races of Men" or "Races of Elves", etc. (or maybe just "Races"?), which would link to each of the relevant entries in-text (and also to the other major Races entries in the sideline links).
2) Does anyone want to help me compile a list of entries still needed?
Oh, yeah. Need you ask? And I'll volunteer to do some of the entries (eg Easterlings) also (as long as there's no deadline...) But I'll be really busy (read: brain-dead) for the next several days, so can't work on compiling a list seriously until later this week or next week...
3) Ok, turns out I actually have three questions because I'm wondering if some of this would be better covered in research articles rather than bios.
I don't think research articles are as obvious and easy to find as Bios...
Although we already have bio entries for, say, Bardings and Beornings, don't we?
We do? *Barbara whistles innocently...*
the counts for research articles seem to be off for some reason
I suspect that this might be the same problem as the search one: if you type "Lineage" in the Resources search box, the "Notes on the Lineage of the House of Eorl" article does NOT show up, but if you type "Calendars", the "Calendars of Middle-earth" article DOES show up. I suspect there is a difference between how different types of research articles (old vs new?) are linked into the database.

Re: Races and peoples

Oh, this is exciting, because I've been thinking about adding info for Easterlings and I've got a few notes stashed away for Orcs, and have seen a couple things about Dwarves, and really wanted to see the subspecies of Elves featured more prominently... oh, and the groups of Hobbits, too (which may already be in their Bio, I haven't checked). (And BTW we don't even have a main entry for Men.)
Aha, a co-conspirator! It always helps to have someone to egg you along, doesn''t it?
Just FYI (if you don't already know), Marta is working on a mammoth "everything we know about Hobbits" research article, so we should piggy back off that if we can for the Hobbit entries.
Foolishly sticking my head above the parapet....
Well, I had my head under the parapet and Lyllyn still stuck me with a stinker of a reseach article resource!nuzgul....
I think that adding a new major section is a lot of work, which I would support doing if the rest of our team (especially Ang!) wants to, but I would be just as comfortable using the Bios section.
Well, as I've been giving Ang quite enough other puzzles to solve recently with the new Workshop section, I'm quite happy for "races" to stay in Character Bios - but maybe it should be renamed "Character Bios and Races" or "Characters and Races" or something like that, just to indicate more clearly that generic race information is available there?
If we continue using the Bios section, I'd like to see separate entries for each subrace, to really make it more obvious that we have that information. For example: "Elves - Sindar" or "Men - Easterlings" or "Dwarves - Longbeards" or "Orcs - Uruk-hai" or "Hobbits - Stoors". (We could also use "Elves: Sindar", but I'm not sure if the colon would confuse the search function, which is not very reliable.)
Yes, exactly my thinking for what was needed! Some of the information is aleady there, but I didn't find it easy to locate it.
In addition (okay, brainstorming mode here), we could have overview entries like "Races of Men" or "Races of Elves", etc. (or maybe just "Races"?), which would link to each of the relevant entries in-text (and also to the other major Races entries in the sideline links).
If bios are already set up to do those kinds of links, that seems like a good idea.
2) Does anyone want to help me compile a list of entries still needed?
Oh, yeah. Need you ask? And I'll volunteer to do some of the entries (eg Easterlings) also (as long as there's no deadline...) But I'll be really busy (read: brain-dead) for the next several days, so can't work on compiling a list seriously until later this week or next week...
Well,you know, I was kind of expecting you to answer (I am enomorusly admiring of the sterling efforts you especially, but everyone else too, have put in expanding the content in resources so that I am now very surprised when I don't find what I'm looking for).
And no, I don't expect anything much to be done over the next few days - I just wanted to get it flagged as an(other) area that could probably do with more development.
3) Ok, turns out I actually have three questions because I'm wondering if some of this would be better covered in research articles rather than bios.
I don't think research articles are as obvious and easy to find as Bios...
Agreed - but I think we can link any relevant research articles that have already been written or are written in the future to the appropriate Bio, can't we? (I haven't really played around on the database side of Resources much, other than to use it to look stuff up, so I'm not clear what's possible or the best way when connecting different records.)
the counts for research articles seem to be off for some reason
I suspect that this might be the same problem as the search one
Ah, OK. The search features and so on are wonderful, but I do know they have some odd quirks.
Cheers, Liz
(Off to contemplate looking up some quotes)

Re: Races and peoples

Barbara and Lyllyn
Looking for a bit of guidance if you have the time to spare!
I'm just starting to compile my bio for the Lossoth and have put up a simple bio. Would you mind checking that what I'm doing is heading in the right direction and that I'm using the correct formatting and so on?
Also, should I be putting in hyperlinks to other entries (Arvedui, Witch-King, Angmar, Forochel etc)?
And I'm unsure about how extensively I should be quoting. I've given a brief summation of Arvedui's dealings with the Lossoth, but there's half a dozen paragraphs about it in Appendix A - should I quote all of that? (I was looking at Barbara's entry on the Beornings as my guide, but that mostly involves quotes pulled from many different places.)
I'm aware some of the same issues exist with the Drúedain (especially the first age Drúedain - I don't want to just quote the whole of the UT essay!) so it would be good to have a clear idea on what I should be doing.
Thanks, Liz

Re: Races and peoples

Hi Liz!
I'm just starting to compile my bio for the Lossoth and have put up a simple bio. Would you mind checking that what I'm doing is heading in the right direction and that I'm using the correct formatting and so on?
It looks good! Definitely in the right direction! And it's really great to have the info in the library!
Also, should I be putting in hyperlinks to other entries (Arvedui, Witch-King, Angmar, Forochel etc)?
Only if you want to! I am the only one (who is crazy enough) to do that so far, and it has become easier because I've compiled a spreadsheet of all the links I've ever looked up (about 1700). I would be more than happy to share my spreadsheet with you, if you would be interested in it (what I do: look up an entry in the spreadsheet, then, if it is not there, look it up in the database, then add the URL (address) to the spreadsheet if it exists...) It takes a little more work, but I believe that it's worth it.
And I'm unsure about how extensively I should be quoting. I've given a brief summation of Arvedui's dealings with the Lossoth, but there's half a dozen paragraphs about it in Appendix A - should I quote all of that?
When I did my first really major entry, I summarized some stuff -- and got some of it wrong (fortunately, Nessime caught my errors). Ever since, I have used quotations rather than summaries as a matter of personal preference. I do edit longer quotes if there is material that is not directly related to the topic, using ellipses (...) and very short editorial comments or replacements in [] (e.g. I'll put in a name if there's a pronoun that is otherwise not identified within the quoted text). As I get more experience, I get more vicious about editing out material that is off-topic or unnecessarily repetitive verbal flourishes (even if I like it esthetically...).
So, I prefer quotes (even long ones) to summaries, but that is strictly a personal preference. The only thing that I really would like to encourage strongly is that there be at least one quotation in every entry.
BTW, your history summary looked accurate to me (and you selected the perfect quote to describe the Lossoth), so please don't interpret my statement of preference as a reflection on your summary.
(I was looking at Barbara's entry on the Beornings as my guide, but that mostly involves quotes pulled from many different places.)
Wow, that was (I think) my very first entry... If I were to do it today, I would add hyperlinks (still may do that someday)...
and I would surround the sentence starting with "However, Aragorn's description..." with [] because it is editorial in nature, and I would put a ":" at the end of the first (introductory) sentence...
However, I still do organize long entries into sections... for Men/Elves/Dwarves/etc., these would be whichever were relevant from: Description, Skills, History, Language, Etymology and Notes.
I'm aware some of the same issues exist with the Drúedain (especially the first age Drúedain - I don't want to just quote the whole of the UT essay!)
It's been a long while since I read that essay, but I believe that you could pick out relevant paragraphs based upon the above categories, and leave out much of the rest... for example, (off the top of my head) you might choose to include the sentence/paragraph (or two) that says that they have special powers (i.e. Skills), but leave out the long story illustrating said powers. Does that make sense?
- Barbara
P.S. Saw a couple of typos in the quotation, but I'm too lazy to describe them here (& they're not relevant to the overall format of the entry), so I'll just correct them. If you're working from an electronic copy, you should check that paragraph and correct the errors. And if you're NOT doing so, let us know...

Re: Races and peoples

You know, this also brings up again the topic of SubTypes of Man. The only current subtype I see that is relevant (edit: ) to the Lossoth is Men of Shadow, and I have strong objections to using such a tainted description (canonical though it may be) for races of Men.
Oh, well, there's so much other stuff going on in HASA that I don't think we need to discuss that right now. It is actually fortunate that you were not forced to specify a Subtype.
- Barbara
P.S. I also have a spreadsheet of Citations, since I hate creating them so much. Now, I just copy and paste them (did I mention that I'm lazy?) Let me know if you'd like a copy.

Re: Races and peoples

Sorry I never responded to this...
Aha, a co-conspirator! It always helps to have someone to egg you along, doesn''t it?
Harrrumph! I never need any protection when waltzing through the Challenge/Nuzgûl discussions -- my fiction Muse is terminally inert -- but whenever I tiptoe through Resources... aarggh! there are *so many* things I want to do!
Just FYI (if you don't already know), Marta is working on a mammoth "everything we know about Hobbits" research article, so we should piggy back off that if we can for the Hobbit entries.
Definitely! (Aaarggh! I promised to send her a quote about how the giant spiders view Hobbits, and forgot...)
Well, I had my head under the parapet and Lyllyn still stuck me with a stinker of a reseach article resource!nuzgul....
Oh, goodie! What's the topic? (Translation: better you than me...)I'm quite happy for "races" to stay in Character Bios - but maybe it should be renamed "Character Bios and Races" or "Characters and Races" or something like that, just to indicate more clearly that generic race information is available there?
Yup. I lean a little bit towards "Character Bios and Races" because they will always be "Bios" in my own mind.
... we could have overview entries like "Races of Men" or "Races of Elves", etc. ... which would link to each of the relevant entries in-text (and also to the other major Races entries in the sideline links).
If bios are already set up to do those kinds of links, that seems like a good idea.
The in-text hyperlinks would have to be inserted manually, but the sideline-links mechanism is built in. In addition, we'd have to be sure to add a link to the primary entry whenever we added a new subrace (e.g. adding a link to The Lossoth from the hypothetical Men - Races entry).
I think we can link any relevant research articles that have already been written or are written in the future to the appropriate Bio, can't we?
Yes, the sideline-links mechanism supports that already, and in-text hyperlinks will work, also. (Edit: ) We should make sure that Marta's resource article on Hobbits is linked in when it is finished. (For that matter, if we create a Races - Men entry, I should link in my Notes on the Lineage of the House of Eorl research article -- almost forgot about that...)
- Barbara

Re: Races and peoples

Hi Barbara
Thanks for the lovely long reply! I definitely feel a lot clearer about how to go forward. I agree that quotes are better than summaries, since there's less chance of error, and it helps other people find the context for a bit of information.
Hyperlinks
Oh, if you're going to do a thing, you might as well do it properly! If you could send me the spreadsheet of links, that would be great - I can send a list of any new links that aren't on there back to you at regular intervals, so you can keep the master copy?
I've realised I can solve some of my quoting issues by sidelinking and hyperlinking my summary of events to the relevant events - most of the Lossoth stuff is quoted in the "Arvedui dies" timeline entry.
Citatations
Also, the citations list would be immesely useful. The damn things are so fiddly, but I want to be sure they're right and consistent.
However, I still do organize long entries into sections... for Men/Elves/Dwarves/etc., these would be whichever were relevant from: Description, Skills, History, Language, Etymology and Notes.
Aha, the list of standardised headings is great. Is Notes for anything that doesn't fall under any other heading, or do you have a specific use for it? And that helps enormously with thinking about entries for both kinds of Drúedain.
Saw a couple of typos in the quotation, but I'm too lazy to describe them here (& they're not relevant to the overall format of the entry), so I'll just correct them. If you're working from an electronic copy, you should check that paragraph and correct the errors. And if you're NOT doing so, let us know...
Yes, I have electronic copies and, yes, I know they're not completely accurate - but right now my brain is so fried I couldn't proofread a child's picture book. (It's one of the reasons I'm trying to do resources entries rather than writing fic at the moment. It's easier to pick up and put down.) So I would really appreciate it if you would be willing to proof my entries! You know, this also brings up again the topic of SubTypes of Man. The only current subtype I see that is relevant (edit: ) to the Lossoth is Men of Shadow, and I have strong objections to using such a tainted description (canonical though it may be) for races of Men.
Agreed! I looked at the subtypes and didn't like any of them, and was glad to see I didn't have to choose one! Faramir in his long historical ramble at Frodo makes the distinction between High/Men of the West, Middle Peoples/Men of the Twilight and the Wild/Men of Darkness - which is a little more like referring to Moriquendi, rather than implying they are Sauron's minions, isn't it? Anyway, as you say, something for another day.
Thanks for all the help.
Cheers, Liz

Re: Races and peoples

Hi Barbara
I added everything I could find on the Lossoth to the bio, plus a couple of hyperinks and sidelinks. Please let me know if I've got anything wrong or you'd prefer things done differently (especially for the sake of consistency).
Cheers, Liz
(Edited to add a link to make life easier for you! Thanks for all your help.)

Re: Races and peoples

I'm so far behind on things that I'm afraid I haven't kept up with this. I love what you're doing, I trust you all, and I promise to start participating again ASAP. (Anyone want to take over Site Manager? Free to a good home...)
Barbara, when I can, I think I'd find it soothing to work on converting some of the songs to block quotes.
Lyllyn

Re: Races and peoples

Don't worry, Lyllyn, I don't think Barbara and I have got up to too much mischief yet.
Barbara, I've just had a request for Petty-dwarves or Noegyth Nibin or Nibin-noeg or Nibin-Nogrim. I'm happy to do this one, as it's mostly tied up with my favourite part of the Silm.
I think the major issue is what name we list them under!
(And evil, tricksy, wicked Marta for asking me to do this. Looks like this is going to involve many other related entries in places....)
Cheers, Liz

Re: Races and peoples

Thanks for the lovely long reply!
You're welcome! My brain has been feeling so fried lately, it's really nice to be asked about something where I can conjure up opinions that can vaguely pass for sensible and coherent! Well, semi-coherent, anyway...
If you could send me the spreadsheet of links, that would be great - I can send a list of any new links that aren't on there back to you at regular intervals, so you can keep the master copy?
Done. And I would be very pleased if you would send me the new ones you added, whenever it is convenient. (Just sent you the entries for the newly-added Dwarves from the Quest of Erebor...)
I've realised I can solve some of my quoting issues by sidelinking and hyperlinking my summary of events to the relevant events - most of the Lossoth stuff is quoted in the "Arvedui dies" timeline entry.
Nice to leverage already-done work, isn't it? Is Notes for anything that doesn't fall under any other heading, or do you have a specific use for it?
I use Notes to expand upon text that appears elsewhere in the entry -- whenever footnotes are appropriate *for the entry* (as opposed to footnotes from the quoted source materials, that usually fit in the main body of the entry). Did that make any sense? There is an example in the entry for Beorn which might help. Let me know if that doesn't answer your question...
So I would really appreciate it if you would be willing to proof my entries!
I would be happy to. That's one of the few skills that comes easy for me, even with a terminally fried brain...
Liz, I'm really happy that you're finding Resources something that you can deal with (in small doses!) at this time. It's always nice to have someplace that gives you a sense of accomplishment, even when life conspires against you!
- Barbara

Re: Races and peoples

I added everything I could find on the Lossoth to the bio, plus a couple of hyperinks and sidelinks.
It looks great, Liz! You don't know how pleased I am to see another Resource volunteer be crazy enough willing to add in-text hyperlinks!
There are a couple of formatting things that I do slightly differently now (my "style" keeps evolving), mostly because I have astigmatism so it is easier to read text with a little more white space between things. Because of that, I have been leaning toward skipping a line between a quote and its citation, and also between a subtitle and the following text.
Also, I went through a period of capitalizing sentences (that weren't originally capitalized) like you do: "[T]hey", but am now leaning more toward doing this: "[They]", strictly for esthetic reasons. Again, my imperfect eyesight (simpler is easier to read than more complex) is probably influencing my preference...
Very nice job, Liz!
- Barbara
P.S. Forgot to mention: when you paste an address from the spreadsheet, a linefeed is automatically inserted after it; I always do a paste (ctl-v), then an immediate backspace...

Re: Races and peoples

(Anyone want to take over Site Manager? Free to a good home...)
*Staring warily and backing off* Um, it really doesn't appear to be housebroken... and why is it wearing that big muzzle? Surely it doesn't bite? Sorry, I'm allergic to flying fur... not to mention big, long, bloody fangs...
Barbara, when I can, I think I'd find it soothing to work on converting some of the songs to block quotes.
Be my guest! I've gotten through 'M' on the Things list... pick a letter (or several) after 'M' and I'll leave that range to you.
What I'm really doing (besides the blockquotes on songs) is removing all the HTML breaks (< br />, without the space) from the Things entries, and replacing then with a blank line (between paragraphs) or a space (within paragraphs). Unfortunately *cough* someone *cough* (who is responsible for about 40% of the Things) put in both HTML breaks and blank lines... which means all the intended line breaks were doubled when Ang fixed the bug...
Let me know what range you'd like to start on!
- Barbara

Re: Races and peoples

Don't worry, Lyllyn, I don't think Barbara and I have got up to too much mischief yet.
The operative word being "yet"... Barbara, I've just had a request for Petty-dwarves or Noegyth Nibin or Nibin-noeg or Nibin-Nogrim.
Cool! I think we can add subraces as we get info for them -- i.e. no need to add, say, Longbeards just because we add petty-dwarves.
I think the major issue is what name we list them under!
I think that eventually we would like them listed as "Dwarves - Petty-dwarves".
But we currently have "Dúnedain", "Rohirrim", "Beornings", "Bardings", etc, which we probably would want to eventually convert to "Men - X" format.
So, until we get further along, I would be comfortable with either "Petty-dwarves" or "Dwarves - Petty-dwarves".
(And evil, tricksy, wicked Marta for asking me to do this. Looks like this is going to involve many other related entries in places....)
Hee, hee, hee! Hmmm, let me see... I wanted to create an entry for the Ride of Eorl, so I backed up and created an overview of the Invasion of Calenardhon by Balchoth and Orcs, but one of the related events was Cirion and Eorl Define the Boundaries of Calenardhon (Rohan) but there were a whole bunch of rivers mentioned that, of course, just had to be added to the database...
- Barbara

Re: Races and peoples

Aha, the list of standardised headings is great. ... And that helps enormously with thinking about entries for both kinds of Drúedain.
Is there more than one type of Drúedain? (Besides the real people and the Púkel-men [statues], that is...)
- Barbara
[Edit: ] Oh, now I understand -- looking back on your first entry in this thread, I see that you list First Age Drúedain separately from Third Age Drúedain.
My personal opinion is that a race that is fairly isolated remains the same throughout the ages, so we should just have a single entry for Drúedain.
(Obviously, there are cases where races mix, such as the Corsairs of Umbar or Bree-men, which have to be considered... but I don't think that's the case with the Drúedain.)
[Edit 2, after some thought: ] In fact, for the Bio entries describing a Race (as opposed to the current subtype drop-down box for individual bios), I don't think we should make any distinction based upon Age for any race. For example, if we added an entry for "Men - Bree-men", we could explain in the text (using quotations, of course) that they started out Edainish in the First Age and ended up sorta mixed up with Dunlendingish by the Third Age...

Re: Races and peoples

Hi Barbara
Sweeping up a couple of posts here....
If you could send me the spreadsheet of links
Done. And I would be very pleased if you would send me the new ones you added, whenever it is convenient. (Just sent you the entries for the newly-added Dwarves from the Quest of Erebor...)
Received and will do!
I use Notes to expand upon text that appears elsewhere in the entry -- whenever footnotes are appropriate *for the entry*
Aha, gotcha - nice and clear from the Beorn entry as to what I should be doing. My, that is a comprehensive entry!.
There are a couple of formatting things that I do slightly differently now
OK, I have edited the Lossoth entry in line with the current guidelines - I agree both of those aid readability. If you could take another look, it would be much appreciated - and thanks again for the proofreading.
I also made it a "Full Bio" since I think it's as comprehensive as it can get.
Very nice job, Liz!
Thanks!
And from way back
Yup. I lean a little bit towards "Character Bios and Races" because they will always be "Bios" in my own mind.
I've no preference either way, I was just wondering if the longer version would fit in the menu in the sidebar!
Cheers, Liz
PS - and the research article which Lyllyn stuck me with (although she did say she'd co-author it with me)? Something on "How to write erotica".

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

I think we can add subraces as we get info for them -- i.e. no need to add, say, Longbeards just because we add petty-dwarves.
Yes - I think the best approach is to create the individual entries and then work out how to link them all.
I think that eventually we would like them listed as "Dwarves - Petty-dwarves"
But we currently have "Dúnedain", "Rohirrim", "Beornings", "Bardings", etc, which we probably would want to eventually convert to "Men - X" format.
So, until we get further along, I would be comfortable with either "Petty-dwarves" or "Dwarves - Petty-dwarves".
I think I'd like to start off with them as "Petty-dwarves" as it's consistent with what we're doing for other races at the moment, and we can change them all later.
Is there more than one type of Drúedain? (Besides the real people and the Púkel-men [statues], that is...)
[Edit: ] Oh, now I understand -- looking back on your first entry in this thread, I see that you list First Age Drúedain separately from Third Age Drúedain.
My personal opinion is that a race that is fairly isolated remains the same throughout the ages, so we should just have a single entry for Drúedain.
Agreed. I was thinking about this some more as well, and wondering iof the "Dead men of Dunharrow" are Drúedain as well, or another race who simply used the places created by the creators of the Púkel-men. I need to do some more digging and check that one out, because I honestly can't remember.
Anyway, I think I need to pull all the relevant information together on all of these races, work out what's going on in the relationships between them, and the decide how to structure it. But I think it could be quite a lengthy entry!
[Edit 2, after some thought: ] In fact, for the Bio entries describing a Race (as opposed to the current subtype drop-down box for individual bios), I don't think we should make any distinction based upon Age for any race. For example, if we added an entry for "Men - Bree-men", we could explain in the text (using quotations, of course) that they started out Edainish in the First Age and ended up sorta mixed up with Dunlendingish by the Third Age...
Yes, that definitely seems to be what's needed for the various aspects of the Drúedain.
So I'm going to tackle Petty-dwarves first, as that seems a lot more manageable!
Cheers, Liz

Re: Races and peoples

Hi Liz,
OK, I have edited the Lossoth entry in line with the current guidelines - I agree both of those aid readability. If you could take another look, it would be much appreciated - and thanks again for the proofreading.
Looks great!
PS - and the research article which Lyllyn stuck me with (although she did say she'd co-author it with me)? Something on "How to write erotica".
But, but, but, but... that sounds HARD! And you can't just look up what Tolkien wrote about the topic! How dare Lyllyn make you do real WORK?
- Barbara

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

So I'm going to tackle Petty-dwarves first, as that seems a lot more manageable!
More manageable? Ha, little did I know! OK, more manageable than Drúedain....
Anyway, here is a first pass at several entries relating to the Petty-dwarves. This is mostly based on what's in the Silm. There's more in UT to be added, and I need to do a trawl through HoMe. I also probably need to add in more hyperlinks in the text (although I did do a lot of sidelinks).
Amon RûdhBar-en-DanwedhDor-CúartholseregonPetty-dwarves
Feedback and comments welcome! (Especially on places and things, as it's the first time I've done those.)
Also, Barbara how do you stop yourself thinking, "Oh, I need an entry for that, and an entry for that, and wouldn't it be good to have an entry for that...."? Or don't you?
Cheers, Liz
PS - and I guess I need to post the places in Lyllyn's places lists?

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

Yes - I think the best approach is to create the individual entries and then work out how to link them all.
Agreed. Fortunately, entry names are very easy to change, so we can do our work short-term while still keeping our longer-term goals in mind.
Agreed. I was thinking about this some more as well, and wondering iof the "Dead men of Dunharrow" are Drúedain as well, or another race who simply used the places created by the creators of the Púkel-men. I need to do some more digging and check that one out, because I honestly can't remember.
No, they are not - they are related to the (forgot exactly what they are called) Men of the White Mountains and (later) the Dunlendings:
Wholly alien [to the Common Speech] was the speech of the Wild Men of Drúadan Forest. Alien, too, or only remotely akin, was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue. Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their old speech and manners: a secret folk, unfriendly to the Dúnedain, hating the Rohirrim.
The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix F, The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age: Of Men
But the Drúedain were related to some folk on the coast of Eriador [correction: ] Gondor:
The name Drúwaith Iaur (Old Púkel-land) appears on Miss Pauline Baynes' decorated map of Middle-earth (see p. 274), placed well to the north of the mountains of the promontory of Andrast. My father stated however that the name was inserted by him and was correctly placed. - A marginal jotting states that after the Battle of the Fords of Isen it was found that many Drúedain did indeed survive in the Drúwaith Iaur, for they came forth from the caves where they dwelt to attack remnants of Saruman's forces that had been driven away southwards. - In a passage cited on p. 386 there is a reference to tribes of "Wild Men," fishers and fowlers, on the coasts of Enedwaith, who were akin in race and speech to Drúedain of Anórien.
Unfinished Tales, Part 4, Ch 1, The Drúedain: Notes, Note 13
I hereby bequeath these quotes (that I had laying around taunting me) to you! Anyway, I think I need to pull all the relevant information together on all of these races, work out what's going on in the relationships between them, and the decide how to structure it. But I think it could be quite a lengthy entry!
I hope your planning to separate each race into its own entry?
Oh, that reminds me... you started this thread to think about what the separate subraces are. Let me pull together some other notes I had and get back to you.
So I'm going to tackle Petty-dwarves first, as that seems a lot more manageable!
Hee, hee, hee! Easy stuff first -- it's always nice when the info is not scattered in tiny bits all over Tolkien's works...
- Barbara

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

Anyway, here is a first pass at several entries relating to the Petty-dwarves.
Great! I'll try to look at them later tonight or tomorrow.
Also, Barbara how do you stop yourself thinking, "Oh, I need an entry for that, and an entry for that, and wouldn't it be good to have an entry for that...."? Or don't you?
Unfortunately, I don't. Whenever I'm looking for something, and run across a quote that pertains to something else, I create a Tidbits file and tuck it away... Well, I've got a LOT of Tidbits tucked away, all glaring at me reproachfully. (I sent a couple of them your way in the above post... )
Once or twice, I've looked at all the Tidbits files and determined to clean them out (by entering them). The only problem is, I end up with more new ones -- Tidbits breed like nuzgûl!
PS - and I guess I need to post the places in Lyllyn's places lists?
I'm keeping the master spreadsheet, so I'll add them and update the appropriate Places threads. All you need to do is to let me know when you've added new Places, and I'll do the rest within a day or two. (The date of update on the Places threads doesn't change because I Edit rather than Reply, but I put a date of update at the top of each Places list...)
- Barbara

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

Hi Barbara
wondering if the "Dead men of Dunharrow" are Drúedain as well
No, they are not - they are related to the (forgot exactly what they are called) Men of the White Mountains and (later) the Dunlendings
I thought it didn't sound quite right! Thanks for the quotes.
And don't worry, I won't enter anything based on a half -remembered notion! If I haven't got a quote to back it up, it's not going in.
So, do you think we need an entry for the Men of the White Mountains and/or the men of Gondor south of the mountains, then? Since a large part of the "Gondorians" come from this stock:
“But the stewards were wiser and more fortunate. Wiser, for they recruited the strength of our people from the sturdy folk of the sea-coast, and from the hardy mountaineers of Ered Nimrais."
The Two Towers, LoTR Book 4, Ch 5, The Window on the WestI hope your planning to separate each race into its own entry?
Absolutely - I just need to work out what does actually go where and how to cross-link related information. If it's OK with you, I'll probably run my proposed entries past you first before I actually put them up on the site, to make sure I have got it sorted out.
So how about I take on Drúedain, the men of the White Mountains and Dunlendings (acknowledging relationships with the Rohirrim, Bree-landers and so on, of course)? In other words, all the "minor races" of Men living west of Anduin and south of the line of the Isen in the Third Age.
Oh, that reminds me... you started this thread to think about what the separate subraces are. Let me pull together some other notes I had and get back to you.
Excellent.
Anyway, here is a first pass at several entries relating to the Petty-dwarves.
Great! I'll try to look at them later tonight or tomorrow.
Thanks - whenever you have time would be much appreciated. (Oh and I don't think I mentioned I have a very strong urge to do a bio of Mîm the Petty-dwarf as well. *sigh*)
Also, Barbara how do you stop yourself thinking, "Oh, I need an entry for that, and an entry for that, and wouldn't it be good to have an entry for that...."? Or don't you?
Unfortunately, I don't. Whenever I'm looking for something, and run across a quote that pertains to something else, I create a Tidbits file and tuck it away... Well, I've got a LOT of Tidbits tucked away, all glaring at me reproachfully. (I sent a couple of them your way in the above post... )
Well, at least it's not just me! Happy recipient of any other Tidbits you want to send my way which are relevant to the entries I'm working on.
I'm keeping the master spreadsheet, so I'll add them and update the appropriate Places threads. All you need to do is to let me know when you've added new Places, and I'll do the rest within a day or two.
Will do. Thanks! I shall also have some more links and citations to send you.
Cheers, Liz
(PS distracting myself with this also seems to have unblocked my fic muse, so I am a happy panda. )

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

I thought it didn't sound quite right! Thanks for the quotes.
You're welcome!
And don't worry, I won't enter anything based on a half -remembered notion! If I haven't got a quote to back it up, it's not going in.
Oh, I definitely wasn't worried about that... I recognize a fellow Resource quotation addict when I see one. ... I just need to work out what does actually go where and how to cross-link related information.
A useful trick: if you want to have in-text hyperlinks from entry A to entry B, and also from B to A, then just add dummy entries to the database for A and B, and put "under construction" or some such note in the main part of the entry. Then you can copy the URLs into the text of each entry as you compose it.
(You are composing in separate text files, then copying and pasting into the database, right? That way, you can keep the text file, make changes to it and just copy the text to the entry when you get new info -- and you don't lose any of the hyperlinks that you laboriously inserted.)
If it's OK with you, I'll probably run my proposed entries past you first before I actually put them up on the site, to make sure I have got it sorted out.
Of course! Actually, I was working on Races of Men last night and I have some ideas, which I'll post soon. I think they are very similar to what you have mentioned so far.
So how about I take on Drúedain, the men of the White Mountains and Dunlendings (acknowledging relationships with the Rohirrim, Bree-landers and so on, of course)? In other words, all the "minor races" of Men living west of Anduin and south of the line of the Isen in the Third Age
Most excellent! In fact, in digging through my Tidbits files, I have a lot of quotes relevant to minor races of Men! They're mostly raw quotes, so don't have links or editing, but I'll compile them and email them to you. Will send you my tidbits for White Mtn/Dead dudes & Breelanders today.
But hold off on Dunlendings for a day or two -- I have a *lot* of quotes for them (mostly for the History section) that are scattered among a lot of different files. I'll try to compile them in some sort of historical order and send them to you in a day or two.
Er, can I interest you in my tidbits for the Hill-men [of Angmar]? I suspect (but don't know for sure) that they were an offshoot of the White Mountain folks/Dunlendings that spread north, & then became corrupted by the Witch-king. They might just be a small section of the White Mountains entry? Pretty please?
Well, at least it's not just me! Happy recipient of any other Tidbits you want to send my way which are relevant to the entries I'm working on.
I noticed that you qualified that statement carefully... *Very, very, very big evil grin*
I shall also have some more links and citations to send you.
Good! I just added a few citations myself... BTW, you do not have to send me links for your new entries that you ask me to look at -- I just add them to the spreadsheet as a matter of course (and Places to the Places lists). But any missing ones that you have looked up would be great.
(PS distracting myself with this also seems to have unblocked my fic muse, so I am a happy panda. )
Cool!
- Barbara

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

Hi Barbara
Thanks for the tips as to how to keep control of this stuff and make it easier!
What I'm doing, btw, is copying and pasting all the sections that may contain relevant information for an entry into a Word file, and then editing them to actually create the entry. Much deleting of irrelevant material and shuffling things around. (This is also why I keep ending up with a bunch of additional entries for related places and things.)
Thanks also (I think!) for the offer to send me quotes. That should be a great start and give me some ideas for what words to use to search through the texts to look for other information. But I've still got plenty of work to do on Petty-dwarves, so there's no rush.
Er, can I interest you in my tidbits for the Hill-men [of Angmar]?
Oh, go on then! I'll do all "minor races" of Men west of the Misty Mountains and in Gondor, since they all seem related. (Hmm, I could have sworn I saw an entry for Bree-landers already, but apparently not ). And you can have the Vale of Anduin/Rohirrim and points east, since they seem related.
Just as long as you don't make me do anything with Elves!
I noticed that you qualified that statement carefully... *Very, very, very big evil grin*
Oh yes. Very, very carefully. When you hang out with champion nuzgul flingers like Marta, you learn not to make unconditional promises....
Cheers, Liz

Races of Men (Proposed)

[Edit:] Please refer to the Races of Men thread for the most-recently updated list!Does anyone want to help me compile a list of entries still needed?
Hi Liz,
I've been thinking about which Races of Men that I'd like to see separate entries for, and this is what I've come up with. (I've put them into categories just because it's easier for me to think of them that way.) If you think these are reasonable, then we can work out which entries already exist (some of which might need more info), and which ones we want to tackle. (Looks like you've been most interested in White Mtn folk and Other Races, and I'm most interested in Northmen and Easterlings.)
A question mark means that maybe this group can be folded into the group above... especially if we don't have much info about them. For example, I could edit my Beornings entry to include both Beornings and Woodmen.
Please, everyone, let me know what you think... [Edit: ] Especially, is there any group that I've missed?
[Edit: ] Are the Slaves of the Sea of Núrnen a race, or a hodgepodge of captured Men and their descendants?
- Barbara
----- ET's Proposed Races of Men -----
(for the Race entries in the Bios section)
Revised: 16Nov04
--- Dúnedain & Related Races ---
Edain
- House of Bëor
- Haladin of Brethil
- House of Hador of Dor-lómin
Númenóreans (inc. Black Númenóreans)
Dúnedain
- Dúnedain of the North
- Gondorians
--- Rohirrim & Related Races ---
Rohirrim
Northmen/Kings of Rhovanion
Éothéod?
Beornings
Woodmen?
Bardings
Men of Laketown?
--- Dunlendings & Related Races ---
Dunlendings
Hill-men?
Breelanders
Men of the White Mountains (inc. Lebennin, Ethir Anduin?)
Dead of Dunharrow?
--- Haradrim & Related Races ---
Haradrim/Southrons/Swertings
Corsairs of Umbar?
--- Easterlings & Related Races ---
Easterlings
Wainriders?
Balchoth?
--- Other Races ---
Drúedain
Lossoth
Variags (from Khand)

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

Thanks for the tips as to how to keep control of this stuff and make it easier!
You're welcome ~ I've been doing this since the beginning of this year, so I've developed some useful organizing habits.
What I'm doing, btw, is copying and pasting all the sections that may contain relevant information for an entry into a Word file, and then editing them to actually create the entry. Much deleting of irrelevant material and shuffling things around. (This is also why I keep ending up with a bunch of additional entries for related places and things.)
I've had to develop a system to address this, since I've done so many entries that I have hundreds of files:
- As I gather raw quotes on a topic (e.g. Beorn), I squirrel them away (with citations, otherwise I'll never remember where they came from) into a 'Tidbits - Beorn' file. These raw quotes are often entire paragraphs, even if I think I'll only need the sentence in the middle [edit: ] so I don't lose the context.
- When the Resources Muse finally kicks me into doing an entry for Beorn, I rename the file to 'WIP Tidbits - Beorn', and start to add hyperlinks from the spreadsheet to the parts of the quotes that I think I will use for the entry. Note: I do not edit the quotes yet, not in this file.
- Then I create a new file called 'WIP - Beorn', and copy the quotes that I've decided to use for the actual entry into it, arranging them into a clear order (by sections, say). It is in this file where I actually edit the quotes, cutting them down to just the stuff that is relevant to that particular entry. Then I adjust the hyperlinks, and maybe remove some that are repetitious (because the quotes in the WIP file are not in the same order as the ones in the Tidbits file) or move others that are about to be edited out. This is the text that I copy and paste into the database, review, and then fiddle around with until I'm happy with the entry.
- Once I'm sure that I'm through messing with the entry, I rename the 'WIP Tidbits - Beorn' file to 'Used Tidbits - Beorn', and rename the 'WIP - Beorn' file to 'Done - Beorn'.
That way, I get a nicely-editted entry but still have a file with the raw quotes, which might become useful if I decide later to do a related entry (Beornings!). [Edit: ] And because I've kept the raw quotes intact (and with hyperlinks!), I can edit the quote differently to emphasize a different aspect of a similar entry.
Thanks also (I think!) for the offer to send me quotes.
You're welcome. Always a pleasure... I'll do all "minor races" of Men west of the Misty Mountains and in Gondor, since they all seem related. (Hmm, I could have sworn I saw an entry for Bree-landers already, but apparently not
Thank you! (I haven't checked the db to see what's there or not already...)
Just as long as you don't make me do anything with Elves!
Oh, you're going to make me do all the work with the Elves???? Oh, very well... if I must... When you hang out with champion nuzgul flingers like Marta, you learn not to make unconditional promises....
As I have learned, the only way to fight others siccing nuzgûls on you is to make yourself self-siccing.
- Barbara

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Hi Barbara
This certainly looks a great list to start with. I have a few comments and additions.
I suspect the slaves of the Sea of Núrnen would be a mix of captured men of many races - first generation or their descendents. There are slaves in the Corsair ships as well, who I think are of predominantly Gondorian origin.
There are also maybe "fisher-folk of the Ethir" - who seem to be something of their own stick-together clan, but I think are basically from "Men of the White Mountains" stock.
In the First Age, there are non-Edain Men: Bor and his sons, and Ulfang and his sons are the ones I remember - there may be more. Not sure where you want to put them.
And, technically, Drúedain should be Edain.
Where are you counting the men of Lake-town? In with the Bardings? (I think all surviving Bardings were living in Lake-town at the time of The Hobbit but not all Lake-town Men were Bardings.) Also, what about the people (Men?) who live in Dorwinion, wherever that actually is?
That's all I can think of for the moment! Does anyone else have any input?
Cheers, Liz

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

More good advice. Excellent. But why do I feel I've just put a foot into quicksand....
Oh, you're going to make me do all the work with the Elves???? Oh, very well... if I must...
You're welcome to them. Too much Sindarin. Too many names beginning with F. Too confusing all round....
Cheers

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Hi Liz!
This certainly looks a great list to start with. I have a few comments and additions.
Good to both!
I suspect the slaves of the Sea of Núrnen would be a mix of captured men of many races - first generation or their descendents. There are slaves in the Corsair ships as well, who I think are of predominantly Gondorian origin.
Good, I agree. I don't think that slave populations belong on a list of racial types.
There are also maybe "fisher-folk of the Ethir" - who seem to be something of their own stick-together clan, but I think are basically from "Men of the White Mountains" stock.
Probably! The Men of the White Mountains seem to have been a very hardy aboriginal stock that survived little-changed in many pockets, Lebennin being one, and probably Ethir Anduin as another. I added Ethir Anduin to the MotWM list alongside Lebennin.
In the First Age, there are non-Edain Men: Bor and his sons, and Ulfang and his sons are the ones I remember - there may be more. Not sure where you want to put them.
That's easy: Bór and Ulfang are both Easterling chieftains. And Ulfang is a servant of Morgoth, but Bór is not (which is one reason that -- back in February, was it? -- I objected so strongly to referring to whole races in the Subtype drop-down as Men of Shadow, despite Faramir's golden-tongued generalizations )
And, technically, Drúedain should be Edain.
I disagree. Yes, the Elves did call them Edain as a form of respect, but they are clearly a different race, and I am trying to make distinctions based upon race (as much as we can tell given imperfect information!). Here's why (emphasis mine):
It is stated in isolated notes that their own name for themselves was Drughu (in which the gh represents a spirantal sound). This name adopted into Sindarin in Beleriand became Drû (plurals Drúin and Drúath), but when the Eldar discovered that the Drû-folk were steadfast enemies of Morgoth, and especially of the Orcs, the 'title' adan was added, and they were called Drúedain (singular Drúadan), to mark both their humanity and friendship with the Eldar, and their racial difference from the people of the Three Houses of the Edain. ...
Unfinished Tales, Part 4, Ch 1, The Drúedain: Notes, Note 6
Where are you counting the men of Lake-town?
I will add them into the list under Northmen. If I can find any decent racial information, I could add it into the entry for Bardings (just as I might do the same for Beornings and Woodmen). (IIRC, King Bard or his successors reigned over the entire area, including Laketown, after he established himself, so I think it's safe to consider them kindred.)
Also, what about the people (Men?) who live in Dorwinion, wherever that actually is?
LOL! If we don't actually know where they live, or even that they are Men, then I am a bit reluctant to add them as a separate racial subtype of Men... I think we just don't have enough info to include them.
That's all I can think of for the moment!
Thank you, that helps a lot!
Does anyone else have any input?
Yes, please! The more, the merrier!
- Barbara
P.S. I know that the Dúnedain-related races are distantly related to the Northmen-related races, so they are all basically the same race of Men, but since the Dúnedain-related races are so important in LoTR and we have so much info about them, I thought it would be better to separate out the Northmen. Besides, the Rohirrim & Éothéod are the only Men worth writing about.

Re: Drúedain and Petty-dwarves

More good advice. Excellent. But why do I feel I've just put a foot into quicksand....
But, Liz, I'm trying to help you avoid the quicksand! Really!
Too many names beginning with F. Too confusing all round....
I couldn't agree more. Why do you think I started my Genealogies? All those F-names, and then the C-names *throws hand up in despair*...
- Barbara

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Hi Barbara
Happy to agree with you, except for
Bór and Ulfang are both Easterling chieftains.
Are "Easterlings" in the First Age (who are also - and initially - called "the Swarthy Men") the same as "Easterlings" in the Third Age? (Given pretty much most of M-e is "East " at that point?) I'm not saying they're not, just I'd like to see the relevant quote tying the two groups together before I concur we classify them in that way.
Cheers, Liz

Re: Petty-dwarves - Mîm’s roots (the plant kind!)

Hi Barbara
Slightly off-topic, but I came across all this lovely information about the mystery roots in Mîm’s sack when trawling through the Petty-dwarf text in UT. I can't bear not to put this into the database - but I don't know what to call the entry! Any ideas? (At an absolute pinch, I could put it under "Skills" in Petty-dwarves, but I'd rather it was a separate entry if we can think of a name.
Anyway, off to update my Petty-dwarf related entries.
Cheers, Liz
***
[Said] another, who had taken the sack. "There is nothing here but roots and small stones."
Unfinished Tales, Part 1, Ch 2, Narn I Hîn Húrin: Of Mîm the Dwarf
[Túrin] marked, and others also, that Mîm set more value on his load than it seemed worth to the eye.
Unfinished Tales, Part 1, Ch 2, Narn I Hîn Húrin: Of Mîm the Dwarf
[Mîm ]brought out a sack. "Rubbish," he said. "Not worth the stealing. Only wild roots."
But when they were cooked these roots proved good to eat, somewhat like bread; and the outlaws were glad of them, for they had long lacked bread save when they could steal it. "Wild Elves know them not; Grey-elves have not found them; the proud ones from over the Sea are too proud to delve," said Mîm.
"What is their name?" said Túrin. Mîm looked at him sidelong. "They have no name, save in the Dwarf-tongue, which we do not teach," he said. "And we not teach Men to find them, for Men are greedy and thriftless, and would not spare till all the plants had perished; whereas now they pass them by as they go blundering in the wild. No more will you learn of me; but you may have enough of my bounty, as long as you speak fair and do not spy or steal." Then again he laughed in his throat. "They are of great worth." he said. "More than gold in the hungry winter, for they may be hoarded like the nuts of a squirrel, and already we were building our store from the first that are ripe.”
Unfinished Tales, Part 1, Ch 2, Narn I Hîn Húrin: Of Mîm the Dwarf
[Ulrad, one of Túrin’s men, said:] “Nonetheless the old rogue had other things in his sack, of like shape but harder and heavier. Maybe there are other things beside earth-bread in the wild which Elves have not found and Men must not know!"
Unfinished Tales, Part 1, Ch 2, Narn I Hîn Húrin: Of Mîm the Dwarf
The mystery of the other things in Mîm's sack is not explained. The only other statement on the subject is in a hastily scribbled note, which suggests that there were ingots of gold disguised as roots, and refers to Mîm seeking "for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'". These were no doubt those referred to in the text as "great stones, leaning or tumbled together", at the place where Mîm was captured. But there is nowhere any indication of what part this treasure was to play in the story of Bar-en-Danwedh.
Note 19 Unfinished Tales, Part 1, Ch 2, Narn I Hîn Húrin: Notes

Re: Petty-dwarves - Mîm’s roots (the plant kind!)

I came across all this lovely information about the mystery roots in Mîm’s sack
Hmmmm, these roots are interesting! I kind of like the name 'earth-bread', and you can always claim that it's canonical
- Barbara

Re: Petty-dwarves - Mîm’s roots (the plant kind!)

Hi Barbara
Hmmmm, these roots are interesting!
Aren't they just? Speculating here, but do you reckon they might really be wild potatoes?
I kind of like the name 'earth-bread', and you can always claim that it's canonical
Yes, earth-bread is good, given they don't have a "proper" name! I'll enter them under that.
Way too many interesting diversions in Petty-dwarves.... *sigh*
Cheers, Liz

Re: Petty-dwarves - Mîm’s roots (the plant kind!)

Speculating here, but do you reckon they might really be wild potatoes?
Potato or maybe yam... not sure whether both of those are New World in origin... not that it matters: this *is* fiction (I keep having to tell myself!)
But yes, that's how I pictured them in my mind. Basically, ugly!
Way too many interesting diversions in Petty-dwarves.... *sigh*
**Hmmm, should I tell her that there are way too many interesting diversions in every corner of Tolkien's writings? Naaahhhh...**
- Barbara
(Still looking up stuff about First Age Easterlings... Aaargh! The stuff about Men in the Silm is *so* depressing!)
[Edit: ] P.S. Even if you have a separate Things entry for earth-bread, it's probably still worth a short quote in the Skills section of the Petty Dwarves' entry; after all, survival is a very useful skill -- and if the Elves didn't know about them, that's rather cool! Good place for a hyperlink, methinks...

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Hope you don't mind me budging in. Just thought I should quickly pop up to direct you to an old thread: Races and Types- Changes coming, where we had some geeky discussions on races. It'll probably of some help to you.
~Loqi

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Hope you don't mind me budging in.
Mind? Definitely not! Come on in, pull up a chair, join in with your opinions -- you know you want to!
(Hmmm, maybe I've been reading the Prospective Challenges thread a bit too much?)
Races and Types- Changes coming, where we had some geeky discussions on races. It'll probably of some help to you.
LOL! Does this discussion look familiar, perchance?
That's where I started! And I've had several months to improve refine my opinions. This list is for a slightly different purpose: to determine which Race entries we want in the Bios.
Not for the individual characters' race in the dropdown boxes. Not yet.
- Barbara

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Mind? Definitely not! Come on in, pull up a chair, join in with your opinions -- you know you want to!
Will do, as soon as I have time. In the mean time, I'll be following this thread.
LOL! Does this discussion look familiar, perchance?
Indeed it does. This list is for a slightly different purpose: to determine which Race entries we want in the Bios.
Not for the individual characters' race in the dropdown boxes.
Oh I know, but there were some discussions that would be useful for this thread too.
~Loqi
P.S. I might be able to help with those pesky Elves... emphasis on might

Re: Petty-dwarves - Mîm’s roots (the plant kind!)

Barbara wrote:
Potato or maybe yam... not sure whether both of those are New World in origin... not that it matters: this *is* fiction (I keep having to tell myself!)
*cough* Tolkien put potatoes in. So I personally don't think we don't need to be obsessively purist about Old World and New World plants and animals....
**Hmmm, should I tell her that there are way too many interesting diversions in every corner of Tolkien's writings? Naaahhhh...**
It's more the story!nuzgul diversions I'm worried about.... As I already have too many nuzgul about one raven-haired angsty Captain, I really don't need to collect any about the other one. (Still looking up stuff about First Age Easterlings... Aaargh! The stuff about Men in the Silm is *so* depressing!)
Yes [Edit: ] P.S. Even if you have a separate Things entry for earth-bread, it's probably still worth a short quote in the Skills section of the Petty Dwarves' entry; after all, survival is a very useful skill -- and if the Elves didn't know about them, that's rather cool! Good place for a hyperlink, methinks...
Done. I've added an editorial note with a link to the earth-bread entry.
Loqi wrote:
Hope you don't mind me budging in. Just thought I should quickly pop up to direct you to an old thread: Races and Types- Changes coming, where we had some geeky discussions on races. It'll probably of some help to you.
Not at all - I did read that thread before I started this one, but it's been a couple of weeks, so I'll go and refresh my memory.
Barbara wrote:
Not for the individual characters' race in the dropdown boxes. Not yet.
Hmm, sounds like we are starting to ge into making mischief Lyllyn should worry about...
Loqi wrote:
P.S. I might be able to help with those pesky Elves... emphasis on might
Just as long as I don't have to go near them. Men and dwarves I'm happy to trundle along researching, but please don't make me do anything with elves.
Cheers, Liz

Re: Petty-dwarves

Well, I might just have managed finally to crawl out from underneath the Petty-dwarf resource!nuzgul, having just put up my bio of Mîm. All feedback welcome!
Still need to do some digging around in HoMe, I think (I'd like to find something more about the Petty-dwarves' language and origins if I can), but I'll hold off climbing that particular mountain just yet.
(Barbara, I have a load of links and citations to send you, but I'll wait until we've resolved the Gorthol question I raised in the other thread.)
And I have another question: is there any way of co-ordinating researchers to ensure we're not independently researching the same entries?
I see Kitt of Lindon has done lots of lovely entries related to The Hobbit. (Hi Kitt ) And I know I have a tendency to start in one place with one big entry (like Petty-dwarves) and then feel the need to pull together lots of little entries for related places and things (eight or nine, in this case) - and I'll admit I do feel that's a rather "randomly methodical" approach.
So, er, do we co-ordinate in any way? Or just wave at each other in these threads saying what broad area we're working on?
Cheers, Liz

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Oh I know, but there were some discussions that would be useful for this thread too.
Absolutely!
P.S. I might be able to help with those pesky Elves... emphasis on might
Oooh, lovely! Is there any particular race (or two?) of Elves that you'd like us to save for you? I figured that at some point, I'd do whichever ones were still left after others had their first pick... but Men are going to keep me busy for a bit.
- Barbara

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Oooh, lovely! Is there any particular race (or two?) of Elves that you'd like us to save for you?
I don't really mind which race you give me. To tell the truth, I only have one volume of HoME (and I havn't even read it), plus I've lent my copy of the Silmarillion, so I won't have all the information I need right now to do a complete Elves research. It's why I emphasis on 'might' (not just because research!nuzguls can become extremely clingly... *shudders*)
I can start compiling on which races of Elves that needs to be done though, unless we already have a list.
~Loqi
*feeling rather useless*

Re: Petty-dwarves

Well, I might just have managed finally to crawl out from underneath the Petty-dwarf resource!nuzgul, having just put up my bio of Mîm. All feedback welcome!
Great! I haven't forgotten to look over your other entries as well... I'm just trying to figure out your question about the Easterlings first (and, in the process, creating a Tidbits file for Easterlings, since "someone" mentioned in another discussion that I might be doing an Easterlings entry...)
Still need to do some digging around in HoMe, I think (I'd like to find something more about the Petty-dwarves' language and origins if I can)
**Hmmm, should I tell her that you never really "finish" an entry? Naaaaaahh.**
Barbara, I have a load of links and citations to send you, but I'll wait until we've resolved the Gorthol question I raised in the other thread.
Good.
And I have another question: is there any way of co-ordinating researchers to ensure we're not independently researching the same entries?
Have you ever heard the expression: "herding cats"? No? Oh, well... (I can afford to be flippant, 'cause I'm not an admin... )
As far as I know, no one has complained about duplicate effort since I've been here... I have been basically doing my own thing, following my own eclectic interests... However, if one of us posts a comment on, say, the Resource Admin Discussions thread that we're working on a certain area, I'm sure that would be a sufficient heads-up to anyone else who either has some tidbits to share or is working on something similar and wants to coordinate...
So, er, do we co-ordinate in any way? Or just wave at each other in these threads saying what broad area we're working on?
Waving seems the most reasonable to me in general (just make sure you dodge any flying nuzgûl). We can certainly do some informal coordinating on a specific area - like we're doing on this thread - but (danger: unofficial personal opinion follows) I don't see that any of us has to clear a topic with anyone else before barging ahead.
- Barbara, barging, waving, and dodging simultaneously...
P.S. I started to send this to you hours ago, but got distracted... sorry!

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

I can start compiling on which races of Elves that needs to be done though, unless we already have a list.
Terrific! I would start with the existing Elf Types list that Lyllyn gave us in the "Races and Types - Changes Coming" thread, and just copy that list to this thread.
Then, we could modify that initial list if we wanted to, by brainstorming the "missing" ones.
(For example, there are various "flavors" of Silvan Elves that I can never keep straight [Green Elves being one]. I suspect that the flavors are all so closely related -- and there is so little information about each -- that they would only deserve a mention in the "Silvan Elves" entry, just like the similar "flavors" of "Men of the White Mountains".)
Then, if you would look at the Elves info that is already in our database, and see if there is any Race/Type info there now. Once we have the list of Elf Races that we want entries for, and know which ones are missing, we can start to work on filling in the missing info.
How does that plan sound to you?
- Barbara, who thinks the mind of a willing Resources volunteer is a terrible thing to waste

Re: Petty-dwarves - Mîm’s roots (the plant kind!)

*cough* Tolkien put potatoes in. So I personally don't think we don't need to be obsessively purist about Old World and New World plants and animals....
LOL! I'm not quite so canon-crazy that I would object to 'taters -- and you were speculating, after all! What I meant was that I was trying (and clearly failing) to brainstorm the question: is there a more globally-recognized (ugly edible) tuber to compare the earth-bread with today? And the correct answer is: no.
Have some mushrooms, fried tom-ah-toes and nice crispy bacon on me!
Hmm, sounds like we are starting to ge into making mischief Lyllyn should worry about...
Shhhh! Don't tell her!
- Barbara

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Hi everyone! I have edited my original entry to add the suggestions that Liz made, and also moved Variags (from Khand) to the "Other Races" category, since I can't find anything suggesting that they are related to the Easterlings by race (despite coming from a relatively nearby region). (Okay, I basically can't find any useful info about Variags at all...)
But, I also changed the names of two categories, to identify each with the most widely-recognized race within that category:
"Northmen & Related Races" became Rohirrim & Related Races, and
"White Mountains Men & Related Races" became Dunlendings & Related Races.
- Barbara
P.S. And I also reordered the categories, to put them in approximate order of familiarity by most LoTR fans.

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Barbara - the list looks good to me and I like the name changes (and having read the other thread about classifiying races, my vote would have gone for "Men - Other Non-Edain" rather than "Men of Shadow", too. )
Loqi - there's a list of Elven types within the main Elves bio which I think is a bit more comprehensive than in the . "Races and types - changes coming" thread.
As we're nearing the point where we may want to consider starting a new thread, so this one doesn't get overlong, how about we have two new threads, one for Races of Men and one for Races of Elves, with the lists for each as the first post and updates on what has already been completed (well, as much as anything ever is!) or who has volunteered to do it if it still needs doing? You never know, we might attract a few other mad fools to help us.
Also, what's the difference between a simple bio and a full bio (ie is there a point at which a simple bio becomes a full one)?
Cheers, Liz
PS to Barbara: did you ever get anywhere with the "Bór and Ulfang are both Easterling chieftains" issue or are you still looking?

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Barbara - the list looks good to me
Great!
how about we have two new threads, one for Races of Men and one for Races of Elves, with the lists for each as the first post and updates on what has already been completed (well, as much as anything ever is!) or who has volunteered to do it if it still needs doing? You never know, we might attract a few other mad fools to help us.
Excellent idea... I'll use my list to start a new Races of Men thread.
Also, what's the difference between a simple bio and a full bio (ie is there a point at which a simple bio becomes a full one)?
I'm not sure. Somebody (Lyllyn or Nessime?) changed all my Simple Bios for Beornings and Bardings to Full Bios. Maybe if you have just a quote or two - the bare minimum to establish the character - it's a 'Simple Bio'. If you've squeezed in every last quote that you could find in the Hob/LoTR/Silm canon, then it's a 'Full Bio'. I have a feeling anything you've done is a Full Bio. (But there's another, invisible category: If you've squeezed every last quote you could find not only from the above books, but also from UT and HoME and Letters and the Atlas and the Annotated Hobbit, then it's a 'Scary Bio'.)
PS to Barbara: did you ever get anywhere with the "Bór and Ulfang are both Easterling chieftains" issue or are you still looking?
Still working on it. There's a half-remembered quote that I can't find...
- Barbara

Re: Races and peoples

(Anyone want to take over Site Manager? Free to a good home...)
*Staring warily and backing off* Um, it really doesn't appear to be housebroken... and why is it wearing that big muzzle? Surely it doesn't bite? Sorry, I'm allergic to flying fur... not to mention big, long, bloody fangs...
It just playful, really...
(Anyone want to take over Site Manager? Free to a good home...)
*Staring warily and backing off* Um, it really doesn't appear to be housebroken... and why is it wearing that big muzzle? Surely it doesn't bite? Sorry, I'm allergic to flying fur... not to mention big, long, bloody fangs...
I've started with the letter N on revising the songs - very soothing. It will be slow, but I'll keep at it.
Lyllyn

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Barbara wrote: Terrific! I would start with the existing Elf Types list that Lyllyn gave us in the "Races and Types - Changes Coming" thread, and just copy that list to this thread.
Done just that, and made a few changes of my own.
Liz wrote: Loqi - there's a list of Elven types within the main Elves bio which I think is a bit more comprehensive than in the . "Races and types - changes coming" thread.
Thanks Liz! It helped me a lot.
And here's the list, tell me what you think:
Elf
- Vanyar
- Noldor
- Teleri
- Teleri of Aman
- Sindar
- Falathrim
- Nandor
- Silvan
- Laiquendi
Some questions that popped into my head: Is there a specific name for the Teleri of Aman, one we can use to distinguish them from the other Teleri groups?
Also, I'm wondering if we can put an equal sign between the Silvan and the Nandor. The definition of Silvan are Elves who live East of the Misty Mountains. The only Nandor elves who crossed the Mountains are the Laiquendi.
Barbara wrote: I also changed the names of two categories, to identify each with the most widely-recognized race within that category
The list looks great. One question though: Under Rohirrim & Related Races why does the Eotheod have a question mark beside it if the Northmen/Kings of Rhovanion doesn't have one?
Liz wrote: Also, what's the difference between a simple bio and a full bio (ie is there a point at which a simple bio becomes a full one)?
It used to be that once the bio has an article attached to it, it becomes a full bio. Now that some of the bio entries themselves seem like a tiny article, I think maybe we can use our own discretion.
~Loqi

Re: Races and peoples

It just playful, really...
Yeah, Lyllyn, sure! (It's not looking over your shoulder, making you say that, is it?)
I've started with the letter N on revising the songs - very soothing. It will be slow, but I'll keep at it.
Great! Should I assume that you'll concentrate on all the Things that are songs or verse, and I'll concentrate on the rest of the Things? (I've been slowing down a bit lately -- Liz keeps making me look up stuff...)
- Barbara

Races of Elves

And here's the list, tell me what you think:
Looks good! A couple of thoughts:
- I think there's another group: the Refuseniks, er, um, Avari.
- You might want to consider organizing the list into Tolkien's 3 main hosts: Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri (with all the offshoots of the Teleri, e.g. Sindar, underneath), and then the fourth group: the Refuseniks, er, Avari. Some questions that popped into my head: Is there a specific name for the Teleri of Aman, one we can use to distinguish them from the other Teleri groups?
Um, dunno off the top of my head... Seems like there oughta be. [Edit: ] Maybe Teleri of Alqualondë?
Also, I'm wondering if we can put an equal sign between the Silvan and the Nandor. The definition of Silvan are Elves who live East of the Misty Mountains. The only Nandor elves who crossed the Mountains are the Laiquendi.
So, Nandor is the umbrella term? What I did with, say, the Dead Men of Dunharrow is to list them with a question mark beneath the Men of the White Mountains. The question mark means: if we don't choose to give these guys a Bio of their own, they should still be specifically mentioned in the White Mtns Bio. So, you could list the Nandor, and underneath list Silvan and Laiquendi (Green-elves, right?) with question marks... meaning that they might all be folded into the Nandor Bio entry.
The list looks great. One question though: Under Rohirrim & Related Races why does the Eotheod have a question mark beside it if the Northmen/Kings of Rhovanion doesn't have one?
Thanks! The question mark after Éothéod just means that I have a whole bunch of quotes for Northmen/Éothéod, but I'm not sure there's really enough to justify a separate Bio entry. But I really *want* to do an Éothéod (People) entry, because I already have an Éothéod (Land) entry. How's that for obsessive logical reasoning?
- Barbara

Re: Races of Elves

- I think there's another group: the Refuseniks, er, um, Avari.
- You might want to consider organizing the list into Tolkien's 3 main hosts: Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri (with all the offshoots of the Teleri, e.g. Sindar, underneath), and then the fourth group: the Refuseniks, er, Avari.
Ack! You're right! I forgot Avari! I knew something was off.... It was in my original list, lost it in the process of copy/paste. Thanks for catching that!
So, you could list the Nandor, and underneath list Silvan and Laiquendi (Green-elves, right?) with question marks... meaning that they might all be folded into the Nandor Bio entry.
Sounds good.
Is there a specific name for the Teleri of Aman, one we can use to distinguish them from the other Teleri groups?
Maybe Teleri of Alqualondë?
Well, it is sort of the same thing as Teleri of Aman, but I'll add that in as an optional name.
Here's the new list:
Races of Elves:
VanyarNoldorTeleri
Teleri of Aman (or of Aqualondë)
Sindar
- Falathrim?
Nandor
- Silvan?
- Laiquendi? [Edit: Green-elves]
Avari
~Loqi

Re: Races of Elves

Thanks for catching that!
You're welcome... I'm so steeped in Races of Men at the moment that it's really surprising that I noticed.
Here's the new list:
Your list looks great! Do you mind starting the Races of Elves thread, like Liz suggested?
Teleri of Aman (or of Aqualondë)
Ooooh, wait! I found this in the Silm index:
Falmari The Sea-elves; name of the Teleri who departed from Middle-earth and went into the West.
Okay, I bet there are very few Tolkien fans who would remember that term (it's only used once in the Silm), but maybe you could at least mention it as a synonym, something like:
Falmari/Teleri of Aman/Teleri of Alqualondë
And you could do the same with Laiquendi:
- Laiquendi/Green-elves?
- Barbara
[Edit: ] P.S. you might want to include the synonym Grey-elves, too: Sindar/Grey-elves.

Re: Races of Elves

Hi Loqi
The list looks good to me. I do have a couple of very picky points, but these may be dealt with as part of the entries anyway?
Are you going to distinguish between the Noldor who left Aman and the ones who stayed (I'm not sure they have any kind of distinguishing name, though):
"But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor. There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. "
The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 9, Of the Flight of the Noldor
Also, are there a few Teleri who went to Aman and then returned? Umm, OK, this might only be Celeborn and only in one of the "traditions"....
Otherwise, good work!
Cheers, Liz
Edit: PS Thanks for clarification on the difference between a simple and full bio. (And thanks to Barbara for defining a "scary bio" )

Re: Races and peoples

Should I assume that you'll concentrate on all the Things that are songs or verse, and I'll concentrate on the rest of the Things?
I'll definitely finish songs, if slowly. You're much more familiar with the what should be standard now; would you check my format revisions?
When I'm done, I'll start on other Things - I'll check with you then.
(I've been slowing down a bit lately -- Liz keeps making me look up stuff...)
heh-heh-heh.
While we're at it, you realize that eventually, when admin tutorials go live, all of your excellent organization, links spreadsheet, etc. should be posted there?
Lyllyn

Re: Races of Elves

Do you mind starting the Races of Elves thread, like Liz suggested?
Sure. Would you mind if I sort of copy how you organized things in the Races of Men section?
Ooooh, wait! I found this in the Silm index:
Falmari The Sea-elves; name of the Teleri who departed from Middle-earth and went into the West.
Hey, thanks! And you're right, I've hardly ever seen this term ever used.
maybe you could at least mention it as a synonym, something like:
Falmari/Teleri of Aman/Teleri of Alqualondë
Done. And so are the synonyms for the Green- and the Grey-elves.
Once again, thanks for all your suggestions.
~Loqi

Re: Races of Elves

Are you going to distinguish between the Noldor who left Aman and the ones who stayed (I'm not sure they have any kind of distinguishing name, though)
Hmm... Probably not. Don't think they have any kind of distinguishing name either. And even if some of the Noldor were born later in Middle-earth, they still don't seem to have any differentiation between those who were born in Aman and those who weren't.
It will have to be mentioned in the entry anyway, the exile of the Noldor was so important.
Also, are there a few Teleri who went to Aman and then returned? Umm, OK, this might only be Celeborn and only in one of the "traditions"....
Hee! It also depends on which version of Celeborn and Galadriel's history you're looking at.
Otherwise, good work!
Thanks! And thanks to your suggestions too.
Thanks for clarification on the difference between a simple and full bio. (And thanks to Barbara for defining a "scary bio" )
You're welcome... and those entries are scary, you end up wondering how much time they've spent to gather all that information.
~Loqi

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

That's easy: Bór and Ulfang are both Easterling chieftains.Are "Easterlings" in the First Age (who are also - and initially - called "the Swarthy Men") the same as "Easterlings" in the Third Age? (Given pretty much most of M-e is "East " at that point?) I'm not saying they're not, just I'd like to see the relevant quote tying the two groups together before I concur we classify them in that way.
*Wondering why I was ever so foolish as to preface an opinion with "That's easy"...*
Okay, Liz, I've pulled a lot of quotes together and have a definitive answer for you:
I can't prove that the First Age Easterlings are related to the Third Age Easterlings. But I also can't prove that they are not, and the indirect evidence is leaning more to "are" than "are not".
Here are the quotes and arguments that I've compiled. Sorry, but I haven't polished them, so if anything doesn't make sense, let me know (emphases mine):
It is told that at this time the Swarthy Men came first into Beleriand. Some were already secretly under the dominion of Morgoth, and came at his call.... These Men were short and broad, long and strong in the arm; their skins were swart or sallow, and their hair was dark as were their eyes. Their houses were many.... But Maedhros ... made alliance with these new-come Men, and gave his friendship to the greatest of their chieftains, Bór and Ulfang. ...
There was small love between the Edain and the Easterlings....The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 18, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of FingolfinThose days were evil; for the Easterlings that came into Hithlum despised the remnant of the people of Hador, and they oppressed them, and took their lands and their goods, and enslaved their children. The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 21, Of Túrin Turambar
Who could these First Age Easterlings [aka Swarthy Men] be?
not Drúedain [aka Wild Men] (friends of the Haladin, otherwise kept to themselves)
not White Mtns men/Dunlendings [aka Wild Men] (too far south in the First Age)
not Northmen (relatives of Edain, not under Morgoth's influence)
probably not Haradrim [aka Swarthy Men] (we don't hear of them until Second Age... and they're "cruel and tall" in RoTK.)
not Lossoth (too far north)
not Variags (don't hear about them until Third Age)
Could they be Easterlings [aka Wild Men, Wainriders, & Balchoth in the Third Age]?
IMO, there is more evidence for than against them being Easterlings, but it is all indirect.
1. Christopher Tolkien compiled the Silm well after LoTR had been published; I believe that, if the Easterlings in the Silm were different peoples from the ones mentioned in LoTR, he would have mentioned it (say, in the Silm Index).
2. In the early-to-mid Second Age, Sauron called on "savage tribes of the East" that had earlier been "corrupted by Morgoth". These are Easterlings [compare LoTR App A: "The Wainriders were a people, or a confederacy of many peoples, that came from the East"]; and while the quote doesn't establish that they had been in Beleriand, it does indicate that these Easterlings had been corrupted by Morgoth in the First Age, and now serve Sauron on the Second Age:
Very great changes came to pass as the Second Age proceeded. The first ships of the Numenoreans appeared off the coasts of Middle-earth about Second Age 600.... At the same time, however, Sauron came out of hiding.... For long he paid little heed to Dwarves or Men and endeavoured to win the friendship and trust of the Eldar. But slowly he reverted again to the allegiance of Morgoth and began to seek power by force, marshalling again and directing the Orks and other evil things of the First Age, and secretly building ... Mordor. The Second Age had reached only the middle of its course (c. Second Age 1695) when he invaded Eriador and destroyed Eregion, a small realm established by the Eldar migrating from the ruin of Beleriand that had formed an alliance also with the Longbeards of Moria. This marked the end of the Alliance of the Longbeards with Men of the North. For though Moria remained impregnable for many centuries, the Orks ... invaded the mountains again. Gundabad was retaken, the Ered Mithrin infested and the communication between Moria and the Iron Hills for a time cut off. The Men of the Alliance were involved in war not only with Orks but with alien Men of evil sort. For Sauron had acquired dominion over many savage tribes in the East (of old corrupted by Morgoth), and he now urged them to seek land and booty in the West. When [Sauron was defeated by the Numenoreans,] the Men of the old Alliance were diminished and scattered, and those that lingered on in their old regions were impoverished, and lived mostly in caves or in the borders of the Forest.The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 2, Ch 10, Of Dwarves and Men
3. By the Third Age, we know that the waves of invaders into Rhovanion and northern Gondor (Rohan) are Easterlings, and it is said that they are descendants of the Second Age peoples who had served Sauron:
The vague tradition preserved by the Hobbits of the Shire was that they had dwelt once in lands by a Great River, but long ago had left them ... when they no longer felt at ease in their homes because of the multiplication of the Big Folk and of a shadow of fear that had fallen on the Forest. This evidently reflects the troubles of Gondor in the earlier part of the Third Age. The increase in Men was not the normal increase of those with whom they had lived in friendship, but the steady increase of invaders from the East, further south held in check by Gondor, but in the North beyond the bounds of the Kingdom harassing the older 'Atanic' inhabitants, and even in places occupying the Forest and coming through it into the Anduin valley. [Also,] the Hobbits had sensed ... the awakening of Sauron and his occupation of Dol Guldur.(60) The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 2, Ch 10, Of Dwarves and Men60. The invasions were no doubt also in great part due to Sauron; for the 'Easterlings' were mostly Men of cruel and evil kind, descendants of those who had served and worshipped Sauron before his overthrow at the end of the Second Age.The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 2, Ch 10, Of Dwarves and Men: Notes, Note 60
So, to summarize:
In the First Age:
The people called Easterlings invaded Beleriand, hated Edain (whom they enslaved), and (many) were corrupted by Morgoth
In the Second Age:
"Tribes from the East" (but not called Easterlings) invaded Rhovanion & maybe Eriador, hated Atanic men, were corrupted by Sauron, and had been corrupted by Morgoth in the First Age
In the Third Age:
"A people, or a confederacy of many peoples, who came from the East" and were called Easterlings (or Wainriders or Balchoth) invaded Rhovanion & northern Gondor (Rohan), hated Gondorians & Northmen (whom they enslaved), were corrupted by Sauron, and were descendants of those who had worshipped Sauron on the Second Age.
These similarities are indeed tenuous, but I believe there is a strong enough link between them that I am persuaded that the people called Easterlings in the First Age were intended by Tolkien to be related to those called Easterlings in the Third Age.
If you have any questions or if you want to have a quote duel, let me know!
- Barbara

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Hi Barbara
If you have any questions or if you want to have a quote duel, let me know!
I wouldn't dare!
Seriously, Barbara, that's great research and I think the second age quote from HoMe provides the "connection". It seems to me that the Bor/Ulfang Easterlings and Third Age Easterlings are related in much the same way that the House of Hador is related to the Rohirrim - maybe no direct blood line, but certainly a common ancestral pool from which some peoples went west in the first age and others stayed in the east.
Well done!
And you'd have needed to look all that up anyway, wouldn't you? *bats eyelids innocently*
Cheers, Liz

Re: Races of Men (Proposed)

Seriously, Barbara, that's great research and I think the second age quote from HoMe provides the "connection".
Thanks, Liz! I was pleased when I saw that (and surprised to find it in a Dwarf-focused chapter -- did you know that the language of the Easterlings bore some resemblance to Khuzdul?)
It seems to me that the Bor/Ulfang Easterlings and Third Age Easterlings are related in much the same way that the House of Hador is related to the Rohirrim - maybe no direct blood line, but certainly a common ancestral pool from which some peoples went west in the first age and others stayed in the east.
Exactly! (And very nicely stated, too -- I might want to steal "common ancestral pool" sometime...)
And you'd have needed to look all that up anyway, wouldn't you? *bats eyelids innocently*
Yes, but I might not have done it quite so soon without your nudging -- in two separate forums, no less! *grumble*
- Barbara

Re: Races and peoples

Hi Lyllyn,
Sorry I took so long to get back to you...
I'll definitely finish songs, if slowly. You're much more familiar with the what should be standard now; would you check my format revisions?
The couple of Songs that I looked at look just fine. Thank you!
While we're at it, you realize that eventually, when admin tutorials go live, all of your excellent organization, links spreadsheet, etc. should be posted there?
Hmmmm, let me think... *When Sauron was taken as "prisoner" to Númenor, he was able to corrupt the entire power structure to his twisted way of thinking without supposedly being in power himself...* Oh, well okay, Lyllyn, *sigh* if I must...
- Barbara

Re: Races of Elves

Sorry I took so long to answer this...
Sure. Would you mind if I sort of copy how you organized things in the Races of Men section?
I'm glad you didn't wait for my "yes" to do it! Hey, thanks! And you're right, I've hardly ever seen this term ever used.
Yeah, talking about obscure...
Once again, thanks for all your suggestions.
You're welcome!
- Barbara