Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

After playing every incarnation of a prot pally, starting from Vanilla...it felt wrong to be using DPS gear as a tank. I rather like the push towards a more avoidance based tank again, as it should have been from the get-go. You are a tank...you should be blocking/avoiding blows while doing DPS that is less than the main dps of the group.

Avoidance gearing should be as active as the mechanic is; that is to say, completely 100% passive and built into strength.

Avoidance is alot more unattractive because of the super heavy DR on Dodge/Parry, with Dodge suffering more from DR. If anyone remembers Illidan, having active mitigation was essential for dealing with Shear.

Regarding the ideal dodge/parry ratio discussion: There is definitely an "ideal" ratio where you balance the two diminishing returns curve, and that ratio changes as you increase the amount of avoidance you're balancing. The parry contribution from strength (but not from base strength) is also included in the diminishing returns calculation, as is the miniscule amount of dodge we get from agility (it's 1% per 10k Agility before DR, and again, base agility isn't subject to DR).

The entire conversation about balancing parry and dodge is also utterly pointless, though. The only reason we cared at all in Cataclysm was that we had nothing else to do. Once you reached block cap, the only thing you could do with reforging was shuffle dodge and parry around since hit and expertise weren't a large concern. The practical benefit of maintaining the "ideal" dodge/parry ratio is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things, because you're looking at increasing your overall avoidance by hundredths of a percent.

Nowadays though, we have other options. We're far more likely to reforge into haste where we can, so it's not worth trying to balance dodge/parry anymore because it generally means losing out on haste. And in the few cases where it doesn't, the impact is so small as to be negligible.

^ Basically what I said on the previous page: worrying about D/P balancing at this stage is such a non-issue that it's not even relevant. Unless you're trying to review it in terms of stochastic reduction over hugely long iterations, just reforge as normal. Thanks for clearing up the STR contributions DR for me though.

And huzzah @ that GC tweet, should be no worries now!

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

The entire conversation about balancing parry and dodge is also utterly pointless, though. The only reason we cared at all in Cataclysm was that we had nothing else to do. Once you reached block cap, the only thing you could do with reforging was shuffle dodge and parry around since hit and expertise weren't a large concern. The practical benefit of maintaining the "ideal" dodge/parry ratio is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things, because you're looking at increasing your overall avoidance by hundredths of a percent.

It's pointless at the moment for sure, I was more thinking on add fights in SoO where our stat prio might be

Hit > Exp > Haste > Avoidance > Mast

Where Hit, Exp, and Haste are all capped at that point reforging Mast into Dodge will be slightly better than into Parry, admittedly still fairly minor tho.

Was just that I've seen several people saying how Dodge is worth even less than Parry when infact it's the other way round for most well geared Paladins.

"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

Kinda wish it stayed the way it was to be honest. Can't wait to see this Haste fad you guys are so big on going away. It's a terrible idea and it's getting wayyyy out of hand, not just for Paladins but tanks in general. So many tanks I see now wearing DPS gear, DPS trinkets, DPS enchants...it's gone on long enough. Hope Blizzard fixes it soon.

Kinda wish it stayed the way it was to be honest. Can't wait to see this Haste fad you guys are so big on going away. It's a terrible idea and it's getting wayyyy out of hand, not just for Paladins but tanks in general. So many tanks I see now wearing DPS gear, DPS trinkets, DPS enchants...it's gone on long enough. Hope Blizzard fixes it soon.

Yeah how dare they make tanking interactive and give us access to interesting stats.
Let's go back to random passive mitigation and 969, because those were they days.

Kinda wish it stayed the way it was to be honest. Can't wait to see this Haste fad you guys are so big on going away. It's a terrible idea and it's getting wayyyy out of hand, not just for Paladins but tanks in general. So many tanks I see now wearing DPS gear, DPS trinkets, DPS enchants...it's gone on long enough. Hope Blizzard fixes it soon.

Yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Originally Posted by Nillo

Yeah how dare they make tanking interactive and give us access to interesting stats.
Let's go back to random passive mitigation and 969, because those were they days.

P.S. f*** off.

3 excellent points.

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

Should considering rewording your quote of PaladinBash Nairobi. I got infracted for that exact same quote once.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Kinda wish it stayed the way it was to be honest. Can't wait to see this Haste fad you guys are so big on going away. It's a terrible idea and it's getting wayyyy out of hand, not just for Paladins but tanks in general. So many tanks I see now wearing DPS gear, DPS trinkets, DPS enchants...it's gone on long enough. Hope Blizzard fixes it soon.

Man, you're not gonna be happy.

Originally Posted by Lore

We know you guys like active mitigation. We like it too. We totally agree -- it feels a lot better (and a lot more fun) than passive mitigation.

However, in the short term, dodge and parry still exist. We want them to serve at least some value to tanks. They don't have to be your best stats, we just want them to feel like they're at least accomplishing something.

Looking to the future, we want to keep the idea of "tank" stats around, but they may end up playing less of a role than they do today. Between Dodge and Parry, it's entirely possible that we'll cut one or another and embrace the idea of active mitigation even further.