Questioning is a term that can refer to a person who is questioning their gender, sexual identity or sexual orientation.[1] People who are questioning may be unsure of their sexuality, or still exploring their options.

(from a link on the same WIKI page)

I suppose I'll do but I have to warn I question everybody else's gender, sexual identity and orientation as well and I also find the concepts of "gender", "sexual identity" and even "sexuality" itself rather questionable as concepts so I may not be of much use._________________Kassen

I kind of agree with Kassen. What we do in the bedroom won't effect how much I'm willing to learn from or teach you about Synth DIY. I would however like to know what your favourite resistor is. _________________What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.

That's not entirely what I was hinting at, I meant to say I find such categorisation silly and counter-productive altogether, until fairly recently we were fine without them, the whole idea of "sexual preference" was never meant for people to identify themselves with, the idea was to label *others*, that's why "homosexual" was in use for years before somebody saw the need to invent "hetrosexual".

I think it would be quite sad if somebody were to identify himself as a "filter-builder" to make sure nobody would ever get the idea he might some day like to build a oscillator.

To me it gets most exciting if we have some preliminary idea of a design that might be a filter or a oscillator or a little of both. If we have to label such a thing before we bring it into our bedroom-studio we'll never get anywhere.

I have no idea why people like this sexual labelling so much, as I mentioned it's a fairly new thing but to make matters even worse quite soon after people invented the idea it turned out to be near complete nonsense. "Modern psychology" (if such a thing exists) looks at sexual orientation as a 2d spectrum, along the horizontal axis it plots the degree to which a individual is attracted to men or women, on the vertical the magnitude of the attraction (there are more complicated models as well, of course). These "platonic ideals" of pure hetro or homosexuality turn out to be quite rare as is falling smack in the middle.

If there was somebody who claimed to be a "filter builder" or who took being a "Mac user" so far that he refused to use ATM machines as those didn't run MacOS we'd suspect them of some sort of neurosis yet somehow being "a hetrosexual" is peachy keen.

To bring this back to the topic; To me one of the prime attractions to DIY is making stuff that's unlike what's already on the market. I find this works a lot better with less labelling._________________Kassen

Well, I don't care if people want to use descriptive labels such as these or not. I assume it could be quite valuable in communication. It could save a lot of time and avoid unpleasant situations.

I know there are people here with similar orientations. Everyone is welcome.

Kassen, words like "silly", "counter-productive", and "quite sad" are labels too, and in this case they are pejorative and probably don't make everyone feel welcome. Knowing you I'm 100% sure that this is exactly the opposite of your intension.

Kassen wrote:

"Modern psychology" (if such a thing exists) looks at sexual orientation as a 2d spectrum, along the horizontal axis it plots the degree to which a individual is attracted to men or women, on the vertical the magnitude of the attraction (there are more complicated models as well, of course). These "platonic ideals" of pure hetro or homosexuality turn out to be quite rare as is falling smack in the middle.

Knowing more than one "modern psychologist" and having discussed this with them, I don't believe the 2D model you describe is given much merit in the field. Maybe "popular" or "tabloid" would be a better adjective. But, your point is well taken and seems to support the value of terms as LGBTQ. Terms such as hetero and homo, straight and gay, aren't good enough for people who understand this anymore._________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

Well, I don't care if people want to use descriptive labels such as these or not. I assume it could be quite valuable in communication. It could save a lot of time and avoid unpleasant situations.

Maybe, but they can just as easily cause trouble and cost time, perhaps more easily.

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I know there are people here with similar orientations. Everyone is welcome.

Aside from the "everyone is welcome" I don't get this. What, specifically, do you mean by "orientation" here? How are some orientations similar to others? Are there dis-similar orientations? Before you accuse me of labelling people (which I didn't though I did admittedly judge people for labelling themselves) I'd like a answer to those questions.

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Kassen, words like "silly", "counter-productive", and "quite sad" are labels too, and in this case they are pejorative and probably don't make everyone feel welcome. Knowing you I'm 100% sure that this is exactly the opposite of your intension.

Well, call me imperfect but I think it's sad if people define themselves by labels, I also think it's sad if people excuse questions which they believe to be elementary by labelling themselves as "n00b". To me this is the exact same.

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Knowing more than one "modern psychologist" and having discussed this with them, I don't believe the 2D model you describe is given much merit in the field. Maybe "popular" or "tabloid" would be a better adjective.

Oddly Wikipedia makes no mention of the tabloidish nature of this concept. Kinsey has been criticized, and rightly so, but as far as I read this has mainly been in regard to his choice in test-subjects. Actually I think most if not all more modern models of this build on his work.

I wonder what models your acquaintances prefer, why and what research backs it. If Kinsey's cale is "tabloid" I'm sure this is going to be quite a revelation. I find it quite distressing that I haven't yet seen such a thing in my years of "questioning".

I'd like some links on this.

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But, your point is well taken and seems to support the value of terms as LGBTQ. Terms such as hetero and homo, straight and gay, aren't good enough for people who understand this anymore.

Right. And at that point I combined "not good enough" with what I experience as "counter productive" and arrive at "silly". Perhaps a bit informal but that's how I experience it._________________Kassen

I don't get this. What, specifically, do you mean by "orientation" here? How are some orientations similar to others? Are there dis-similar orientations? Before you accuse me of labelling people (which I didn't though I did admittedly judge people for labelling themselves) I'd like a answer to those questions.

The word orientation here is use WRT how one relates to one's own sexuality. I thought sexual orientation was a common term. Even according to Kinsey, using the link you provided, the 2D view is acknoledged as a useful simplification:

Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories... The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects.
While emphasising the continuity of the gradations between exclusively heterosexual and exclusively homosexual histories, it has seemed desirable to develop some sort of classification which could be based on the relative amounts of heterosexual and homosexual experience or response in each history... An individual may be assigned a position on this scale, for each period in his life.... A seven-point scale comes nearer to showing the many gradations that actually exist." (Kinsey, et al. (1948). pp. 639, 656)

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Well, call me imperfect but I think it's sad if people define themselves by labels, I also think it's sad if people excuse questions which they believe to be elementary by labelling themselves as "n00b". To me this is the exact same.

OK, you are imperfect. Join the club.

I assume n00b means novice. I think it is very appropriate for someone who poses a question on a forum were there are apparently lots of experts discussing things to say, "I'm a novice and I have a question". The sensitive expert would see that this person is seeking a simple explaination that can be understood without a lot of background or experience. Maybe the person would be someone for an expert to take under his wing and mentor. I think it is not sad, but quite beautiful. But when you say, "I think it's sad" then you, being an expert, discourage not only the statement, "I'm a n00b", but also people that feel they are n00bs.

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Oddly Wikipedia makes no mention of the tabloidish nature of this concept. Kinsey has been criticized, and rightly so, but as far as I read this has mainly been in regard to his choice in test-subjects. Actually I think most if not all more modern models of this build on his work.

Yes, Kinsey was pioneer work in the field like Freud was, but while phychologists still honor and respect these trail blasers, they have learned a lot in the intervening years. The views of the early scientists aren't held as sacred and certainly aren't definative.

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I'd like some links on this.

I have no links but a PhD psychologist said to me, "everyone is different and everyone is very complex". This implies a multi-dimensional viewpoint.

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I combined "not good enough" with what I experience as "counter productive" and arrive at "silly". Perhaps a bit informal but that's how I experience it.

You can experience it any way you want, but when someone comes on a forum where they don't know you, and they use a discriptive label to describe themselves in an introductory post, and you say that's silly to use such terms, then the implication is that you are calling them silly.

I could see how someone might think it has something to do with the subject matter of the label they used too. Do you go into this silly discussion when someone says, "Hi I'm a German musician", or "Hi, I'm not a musician but I have come here to meet people with similar interests", or "Hi, I'm blind and I wonder are there any other blind musicians here?.

In a diversity forum, we might try to be more accepting and supportive._________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

The word orientation here is use WRT how one relates to one's own sexuality. I thought sexual orientation was a common term. Even according to Kinsey, using the link you provided,

Yes. Very good. Now we can get to the core of what bothered me;

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I know there are people here with similar orientations.

It's still not entirely clear to me what you mean there. What orientations do you mean and how are they similar and are there any dis-similar ones, as you see it?

I would really like to know this.

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I assume n00b means novice. I think it is very appropriate for someone who poses a question on a forum were there are apparently lots of experts discussing things to say, "I'm a novice and I have a question". The sensitive expert would see that this person is seeking a simple explaination that can be understood without a lot of background or experience.

Yes, n00b means "novice" but in a insulting way, it comes from online game slang. I have no problem at all with people calling themselves "novice" but I do think it's a shame if they use "n00b". There is no shame at all in being a novice, hence no need for the degrading term.

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Maybe the person would be someone for an expert to take under his wing and mentor. I think it is not sad, but quite beautiful. But when you say, "I think it's sad" then you, being an expert, discourage not only the statement, "I'm a n00b", but also people that feel they are n00bs.

No, I don't and I have no idea what you are basing this on. In fact I try to encourage questions, novice or otherwise and when somebody implies something might be a "stupid question" I will nearly always point out I don't think those exist. Actually, I find that novice users/programmers/whatever ask some of the most profound and in-depth questions one is likely to see as they are often trying to get to grips with the nature of the system itself.

I believe that in many ways novice tend to have the most inquirering and and interesting as well as exciting attitudes towards systems. If you don't believe me have a look at the ChucK forum here or at the ChucK list archives, see what percentage of "novice" questions get answered by me and *how* they get answered.

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Yes, Kinsey was pioneer work in the field like Freud was, but while phychologists still honor and respect these trail blasers, they have learned a lot in the intervening years. The views of the early scientists aren't held as sacred and certainly aren't definative.

I wasn't implying Kinsey's views were definitive and in fact in my original post I didn't mention him at all. Much of the research that builds on his work also uses similar diagrams.

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I have no links but a PhD psychologist said to me, "everyone is different and everyone is very complex". This implies a multi-dimensional viewpoint.

Yes, that does imply a multi-dimensional viewpoint but it hardly makes 2d representations "tabloid" material as you suggested. I don't believe the field is quite ready to throw out much of it's research because one PhD said "everybody is very complex".

Of course everybody is very complex but that's not what I meant. I meant to say I don't believe in labels like "straight" or "gay" speciffically because I see these as a continuous and complicated spectrum, not just because "everybody is very complex", you could have a world full of every complex people that still fit in neat boxes with regard to sexual preference.

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I could see how someone might think it has something to do with the subject matter of the label they used too. Do you go into this silly discussion when someone says, "Hi I'm a German musician", or "Hi, I'm not a musician but I have come here to meet people with similar interests", or "Hi, I'm blind and I wonder are there any other blind musicians here?.

In a diversity forum, we might try to be more accepting and supportive.

Well, you are not supporting me here. There was a request for certain people to reply, I reply that I believe I may fit this category and write about how my views on sexuality link to my views on DIY, especially with regard to how things are categorised. I also point out how things are even more diverse then one might think.

What you seem to be saying here is that if I believe (as I do) that these labels are counter-productive in that they obfuscate the underlying matter then I'm "not-supportive", I can't see any rhyme nor reason to this. I am indeed not accepting in some sense but the thing I'm not accepting is the overall cultural phenomenon of how the language as it's popularly used creates divisions that don't in fact exit as such.

It is in fact a integral part of my own experience of my own sexuality to question such categories. Admittedly this does not directly involve sexuality but it will as soon as one's sexuality also involves other people and communication and culture enter the equation. If that means I'm diverse in the wrong way then I think I'll go start a discussion on how people experience their sexuality in relation to how they compose in the composition section.

Oh, and I also believe the whole concept of "Germany" should be questioned as well, as I see it it's a completely arbitrary plot of land. This is likely a quite offensive idea to German nationalists who won't feel supported by this in the slightest. That's because I'm not supportive of nationalism, I fear, not that accepting either (before we go there, I didn't imply people who call themselves "a musician from Germany" are nationalist).

To make matters yet worse I also have a penchant for jumping into discussions about/with blind electronic musicians as I'm very interested in eliminating graphical feedback from computer music to place more focus on the sound, despite not being blind myself.

Now I'll go get some food, I haven't yet decided whether to go for fries or something "diverse"._________________Kassen

- words like "gay" might be a ridiculous abstraction to some, but believe me, they have very real consequences in people's lives. when people aren't allowed to see a dying loved one in the hospital because they aren't legally allowed to marry that person and therefore aren't officially "family" (even if they've been together for 30 years), it's real. when people get disowned and kicked out by their families at age 15 because they told their father they were gay, finding food/shelter is a real problem. anyway, i'm not trying to create a sob story or say that y'all weren't aware of this before, but i just wanted to add that view to the discussion. believe me, i totally agree with the ridiculousness of the whole categorization thing, but how else am i going to start the conversation here if i don't use certain words? that question isn't meant to have a nasty tone.. i'm actually wondering how i could do it.

- i would like to discuss how people's gender or sexuality affects how they do projects. for me, the fact that i don't benefit from the current hetero-system (you will live/act/think/feel in this certain way, you will get married to a man and have a family that operates according to this particular dynamic, and your role in that will be x), it makes me more likely to break some of the "rules" of this system, because following them doesn't culminate in much of a reward for me. in fact, the consequences of following these rules could be very negative in my case. so since the rules of this system don't usually tell women, "allot time for yourself. tinker around with electronic items," i don't have any hesitation about doing exactly that. whereas with straight women, a kind of carrot is held out in front of them, saying that if they act/live in a particular way, they will receive certain benefits (acceptance into a community, societal privileges, financial stability, whatever). a lot of women also have family obligations that males don't share as frequently, so we have less time for certain things. money is another possible part of it.

the diy forums seem to be largely male, and while i could be totally wrong, they strike me as being pretty hetero. so let's talk about it. by the way, i don't think the fact that it might be male/straight dominated is bad, and we could discuss it and possibly learn a lot.

- re: visuals
i think adding visuals can actually make people focus on sound more. i guess it really depends on the person. what's interesting is that i tend to experience sound in a very visual way, but it doesn't feel at all the same as when i'm looking at electronically-generated visuals that coincide with music.

- re: the noob thing
for me the term "noob" no longer carries that negative connotation. from my point of view, that left it years ago. i mentioned that i'm a beginner so that people realize that when they start talking to me about technical crap, it's pretty likely that i'll have little/no idea what they're talking about, so they'll either have to do a lot of explaining or have some patience while i figure out what they mean. i think this thread shows that both of you would be ok to ask questions to, so i'll do that now.

even though i've built some things, i still have no idea what actually happens to electricity as it goes through a circuit. where exactly does it go as it travels through the circuit? and what is happening to it along the way? i realize it depends on the circuit, but i would like to take one circuit and actually be able to know what is happening to the electrons while the circuit is turned on. i have no idea why people put capacitors in a certain spot, or how they know to do that. where can i find these things out?

i realize that is totally off topic, but i'm dying to know and though i've looked through other threads that ask this question, i didn't feel they really answered it.

even though i've built some things, i still have no idea what actually happens to electricity as it goes through a circuit. where exactly does it go as it travels through the circuit? and what is happening to it along the way? i realize it depends on the circuit, but i would like to take one circuit and actually be able to know what is happening to the electrons while the circuit is turned on. i have no idea why people put capacitors in a certain spot, or how they know to do that. where can i find these things out?

i realize that is totally off topic, but i'm dying to know and though i've looked through other threads that ask this question, i didn't feel they really answered it.

Great OT question! I've studied a little bit of electronics, but there is still too great a feeling of black magic to it.

I knew, but I'm not calling myself "Queer" as I personally don't like the word at all. I liked "Questioning" much better as it seemed easier to tie to the inevitable politics as well to DIY (unfortunately that pick kinda snowballed). Then again, once you get into bended and painted (and so on) toys "Queer" might be very appropriate.

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- words like "gay" might be a ridiculous abstraction to some, but believe me, they have very real consequences in people's lives.

Yeah, I know. Fortunately I live in the Netherlands where everybody has equal rights in this regard but that doesn't stop some very unfortunate situations if families internally won't respect somebody's nature.

Paradoxically one close female friend of mine (who is mostly but not only into other girls) has to present her own orientation as lesbian to her parents to avoid continual talk about the hope that she'll still find a guy to marry. Very sad as she herself hates that word.

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believe me, i totally agree with the ridiculousness of the whole categorization thing, but how else am i going to start the conversation here if i don't use certain words? that question isn't meant to have a nasty tone.. i'm actually wondering how i could do it.

Yeah, I understand. Still, your question as it was phrased only excluded "hetronormative" males. I see where you are coming from but that's also a bit odd, if we wanted to (which I don't) we could call that judgemental as well.

I have no research to back this up but I would wager, BTW, that in today's consumption-centric society people into DIY will tend to be more open-minded then most. I think Uncle Krunkus has a good point that with regard to DIY it really doesn't matter who would like to do what to whom, at least not on a technological level.

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- i would like to discuss how people's gender or sexuality affects how they do projects.

Me too, I actually find this a lot more interesting then sorting what labels are judgemental and the semantics of "supporting". Frankly I think this has is a huge topic and that it's quite odd that we haven't gone into this in much depth before. I would think that a person's overall attitude towards life caries over into both areas (as well as politics, etc) so we are bound to find interesting links.

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for me, the fact that i don't benefit from the current hetero-system (you will live/act/think/feel in this certain way, you will get married to a man and have a family that operates according to this particular dynamic, and your role in that will be x), it makes me more likely to break some of the "rules" of this system, because following them doesn't culminate in much of a reward for me. in fact, the consequences of following these rules could be very negative in my case. so since the rules of this system don't usually tell women, "allot time for yourself. tinker around with electronic items," i don't have any hesitation about doing exactly that. whereas with straight women, a kind of carrot is held out in front of them, saying that if they act/live in a particular way, they will receive certain benefits (acceptance into a community, societal privileges, financial stability, whatever). a lot of women also have family obligations that males don't share as frequently, so we have less time for certain things. money is another possible part of it.

Yes, you are right. I would, however, say that that phenomenon isn't limited to just gender or sexuality. Adopting a unusual religion or proclaiming oneself "artist" will have many similar consequences. How bad those consequences are will also depend heavily on where you are, I have no idea where you live (but I'm starting to suspect the US) but I would say that there are plenty of opportunities left for acceptance into a community or financial stability. We aren't living in the middle-ages anymore, "community" isn't limited to village squares and many governments have programs to actively try to persuade young women to get into technology.

I would also say that if you are a man and you decide to "allot time for yourself. tinker around with electronic items" you *also* run the risk of social stigmatisation for being a "nerd" which inherently means you must be emotionally distant.

I also have to say that depending on the community being in a straight marriage may actually work against your acceptance, equally silly but true.

What I'm trying to say here is that the end results will depend a lot on the context (which with any luck you get to choose) as well as the way you present matters and deal with them.

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the diy forums seem to be largely male, and while i could be totally wrong, they strike me as being pretty hetero. so let's talk about it. by the way, i don't think the fact that it might be male/straight dominated is bad, and we could discuss it and possibly learn a lot.

I have no idea to what degree DIY boards are straight, this might be mostly a matter of assumption. Frankly I would guess that DIY boards have a relatively low percentage of hetro-normative people compared to the world at larger since not having children (for whatever reason) will free up lots and lots of time for other pursuits.

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- re: visuals
i think adding visuals can actually make people focus on sound more. i guess it really depends on the person. what's interesting is that i tend to experience sound in a very visual way, but it doesn't feel at all the same as when i'm looking at electronically-generated visuals that coincide with music.

Yes, sorry, I meant non-visual interfaces to electronic music software, especially stuff that goes beyond hooking up a MIDI keyboard to a VST and shitting down the monitor. I find I pay more attention to playing when I don't get distracted by the screen so I designed my sequencer around that. I also think interface sonification for musical instruments is a field that deserves more attention.

As for visualisations, I have been playing round with this; http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/ to generate moving images that react to music and found that strangely I experienced the music in a very different way, my more active postion seemed to encourage more active listening.

even though i've built some things, i still have no idea what actually happens to electricity as it goes through a circuit. where exactly does it go as it travels through the circuit? and what is happening to it along the way? i realize it depends on the circuit, but i would like to take one circuit and actually be able to know what is happening to the electrons while the circuit is turned on. i have no idea why people put capacitors in a certain spot, or how they know to do that. where can i find these things out?

i realize that is totally off topic, but i'm dying to know and though i've looked through other threads that ask this question, i didn't feel they really answered it.

Sorry, not my field, I just stay away from the power lines and hope no smoke comes out :¬)_________________Kassen

It's still not entirely clear to me what you mean there. What orientations do you mean and how are they similar and are there any dis-similar ones, as you see it?

I would really like to know this.

This is getting tedious to me. I mean the same thing when you use the exact same word here:

Kassen wrote:

Paradoxically one close female friend of mine (who is mostly but not only into other girls) has to present her own orientation as lesbian to her parents to avoid continual talk about the hope that she'll still find a guy to marry. Very sad as she herself hates that word.

It's a very old (and possibly over simplified) analogy to talk about electron flow as being like water flowing through pipes. I do believe, however, that it helps to understand some of the basic principles.
Voltage is the "potential" for current flow, or the pressure at a certain point in the pipe. It has a direct impact on the amout of current/water flowing through the pipe/wire. The other thing which impacts the flow of electrons is resistance. This could be seen as the diameter of the pipes. If you have a certain diameter of pipe, a fixed pressure level will result in a certain amount of water flowing through the pipe. If you reduce the diameter of the pipe, (increase the resistance) the amount of current/water flowing will drop. If you increase the pressure/voltage the current will increase again. These three variables are the cornerstones of Ohm's Law.

I(Current) = V(Voltage) / R(Resistance)

and by transposition
V=I*R and
R=V/I

Remember it as a little pyramid with V at the top and I and R underneath.

..V..
I...R

Put your finger over the one you want and the other two show you how to find it. Does that make sense?

We'll get onto some other components and how they operate next time. _________________What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.

We aren't going anywhere this way. Now that we have established what "orientation" means in this context can you kindly go into what exactly this sentence means;

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I know there are people here with similar orientations.

I realise what "orientations" are and I know what "similarity" is, I'd just like to know in what way these orientations are similar. It would also be much more convenient if you'd say what orientations you mean exactly. I can't believe you mean that everybody presumably has a orientation in some sense.

You see, I'm getting the impression that you are describing all non-monogamous-non-straight orientations as "similar" in this much fabled process of "supporting" them._________________Kassen

even though i've built some things, i still have no idea what actually happens to electricity as it goes through a circuit. where exactly does it go as it travels through the circuit,? and what is happening to it along the way? i realize it depends on the circuit, but i would like to take one circuit and actually be able to know what is happening to the electrons while the circuit is turned on. i have no idea why people put capacitors in a certain spot, or how they know to do that. where can i find these things out?

i realize that is totally off topic, but i'm dying to know and though i've looked through other threads that ask this question, i didn't feel they really answered it.

This is a great thing to discuss, but probably best in the DIY sub-forum as a separate topic. I've studied this a lot and have a masters degree in EE to the extent that I used to design ICs. People understand electronics at many different levels and you don't need to understand the physics to understand circuits. But, like you say, you need some level of understanding to get a feel for it.

Of ALL the books I've read about electronics, The Elements of Radio, provides the best description of what is going on in circuits. You really get a feel for electrons and what the various circuit elements (resistors, capacitors, coils, etc) are doing. This book is easily the best written such book I've ever read. It's a perfect resource for you. Amazon Link: Elements of radio,

This book was a JOY for me. When I was studying electronics in school, I was amazed how many other students had read an LOVED this book. For many of us it was what motivated us to become electrical engineers. It's not just about circuits, its about history. It's not just about radio, because until after WW2, the word for electronics was radio. And the math is very simple._________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

I realise what "orientations" are and I know what "similarity" is, I'd just like to know in what way these orientations are similar. It would also be much more convenient if you'd say what orientations you mean exactly. I can't believe you mean that everybody presumably has a orientation in some sense.

You see, I'm getting the impression that you are describing all non-monogamous-non-straight orientations as "similar" in this much fabled process of "supporting" them.

Yes, I perceive non-straight sexual orientations are similar in that they are non-straight. Similar does not mean congruent. They are not the same._________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

thanks for answering my questions! i know they were off-topic, but i will check out the book you suggested. seems like there are a couple of different versions of it. the one you linked only has abraham marcus listed as the author, while others have william marcus and someone-or-other levy. the reason i'd like to understand more of the physics behind it is that i'm a teacher, and children tend to ask questions that might sound simple to some, but that are very penetrating. so they'll ask what something looks like (for example, what do electrons look like as they flow along), where it goes, why, etc.

part of the reason i started this thread is that all my attempts to cross-reference electronic music and gayness have resulted in eighty billion websites about horrible gay club music (there's some good music in gay clubs, but this wasn't that kind). those of you who've been to gay clubs on several or more occasions will know what i mean:

These threads give me a giggle sometimes. Kassen, I share your same view of the world, much like Zen doctrine, cutting to the bone of things straight away. I think I understand your confusion of what being lgbtq has anything to do with breadboarding circuits. And why some terms are brought about to separate rather than connect. Yes, everything is connected, but I agree everything doesn't have to always effect everything else. It's a duality we all have to live with, and overcome.

Still, if you look through purple glasses, everything looks purple. Or to some, if you're being looked at through purple glasses, you might look purple (to someone else). And other times, if you're looked at through purple glasses, you *feel* purple. Quantum physics is trying to deal with this now...the fact that observing something has an *effect* on it.

Ok, that seemed off topic, but this *is * in Discussion. Not somewhere else in the forum.

part of the reason i started this thread is that all my attempts to cross-reference electronic music and gayness have resulted in eighty billion websites about horrible gay club music (there's some good music in gay clubs, but this wasn't that kind). those of you who've been to gay clubs on several or more occasions will know what i mean:

oh, THAT music. Actually, there's a fair bit of that down in the DJ Mixes section, should you need any friendly warning. I think they sneak a lot of that stuff into Ibiza too.

Being entirely subjective, what do YOU think good gay club music should sound like?_________________Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.Home,My Studio,and another view

Good thing too! I mean, I don't really need kids so I'm only in it for the giggles. Dunno about you but I certainly hope your giggles outnumber your kids as well! :¬)

Once it comes down to it it's all really quite funny (at least as long as nobody is getting disowned...), I mean you can like boys or girls or both, full or part time, on their own or together but that's just for starters. I don't think it's possible to mention something that's so outrageous that there's not somebody who gets very turned on about it, there are whole websites devoted to Parka fetishism, to name just one thing I can kinda understand but still found a bit surprising when I ran into it. In a way that's very comforting to me. It's also amusing that whatever it is that you or me might be up to on a given night there are likely lots of people who think it's disgusting.

I would be willing to bet that everybody on this whole site is into something that somebody else on this site finds odd/disgusting or hard to understand.

Partially because of that I think a *separate* "diversity" section doesn't make that much sense and implies there is some sort of "standard" or "normal" that I think is entirely imaginary. I'm getting the impression some people take this whole US suburb idea as normal, to others this will of course look like downright far-fetched (the same hold of course for my own perspective which has obviously been influenced a lot by the Dutch situation). I mean, where exactly is normality once we have a groups of people who consider patch-cables, joypads, soldering irons and JITC compilers important to their musical practice?

Compared to building a theremin I honestly think that making out with other girls is positively traditional.

In closing, now sitting behind tonight's brown beer it suddenly strikes me that the demand to be "supportive" about other people's sexuality is a topic that's wide open for a whole range of dubious jokes. I will try to resist these ;¬)

Liquid; I like that boom boom boom stuff, at least more so then hearing "it's raining men" yet again. I like ambiguity in music and at least lyrically this is hard to come by in "straight music"._________________Kassen

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