This is interesting. I am lutheran and i have saints in my direct lineage closest is Birgitta of Valstena, through her daughter Märta Ulvsdatter
Ulvåsaätten . She did not appealed many people at her time, some called her crazy, manipulative etc. What i find interesting at those times that
sainthood was in sale, many of the " saint " titles were bought ones. When i look at the history and lives of these saints, rarely any of them are
rendered good, unselfish like mother Theresa.

IMHO catholism is idol worshipping. In other hand what is all about these miracles what happens in catholism a lot. Who knows..

originally posted by: Xeven
I am just curious how worship of Mary is not a false Idol? I am not trying to pick a fight. I am exploring my spirituality and trying to
understand?

I know this is a common Protestant criticism of Catholicism, and I have never understood THAT. It's like every time a Catholic mentions a saint, the
Protestants claim "False Idol! False Idol!" St. Jude: False Idol! St. Patrick: False Idol! Good Lord, give it a rest.

That's generally how Protestants think about the Catholic faith.

I'm not saying they're right. I'm not even saying I care -- for the record, I find all religion silly.

No kidding. When you listen to this stuff it's like talking to a hypnotized Hare Krishna convert. They've drunk the Kool Aid.

It wouldn't be an issue if they just admitted they were demigods
Catholic girl was over, asked what she was doing, praying to a saint for good luck. I said so are like saints gods too. No I was told. Well you are
praying to a not god for magical powers, so like a demigod?

Demigod is not quite correct, because everything a saint does is with the permission of God.

When a saint is prayed to, we are basically asking them to go to God and all on our behalf. It's not a lot different than asking a friend to pray for
you, except Saints are right there, in heaven, with the ability to go to the big guy himself and in person to ask for us.

Mary and the holy trinity Isis = mary, Amun the father, Osiris the crucified one and the holy ghost, Horus = the Son, other old deities include
Mithra and so on ,so they are not really false in the way you would think , they are simply warmed over and repackaged deities from older cultures and
civilizations, not just Mary but Jesus himself, someone mentioned Protestants, yes Protestants a reformist sect tired to eliminate those older
influence, but in reality it can't for the above reasons,

These are Steeples still to be found on both Protestant and Catholic houses of worship, and what is a steeple?? nothing but a miniature obelisk, at
the Vatican is the massive very Egyptian obelisk which is the Osiris's male member.
A supposedly secular form of it stands proudly as the Washington monument.

Just for the record, different religions and denominations view the Virgin Mary/Mariam/Miriam quite differently. As a Muslim, I'll tell our basic
perspective of her, though different denominations may add more to what I'll say.

How is Mary not a false idol?

We believe she was an amazing believer who gave birth to the Prophet Issa/Essa/"Jesus" (and it was a virgin birth, at that). But we do NOT view her as
an idol or false idol.

We believe that only God is to be worshiped, so worshiping anything or anyone other than God is "false". But that's not her fault so she wouldn't
deserve any blame for that; the blame would go to those who are worshiping her and promoting the worship of her.

Also, if God knows everything and is the creator, why did he create sin?

We basically believe that life in this realm is just a series of tests to see which souls are worthy of Heaven/Jannah. So humans and jinn are given
"free will" and the ability to choose our own spiritual paths, for better or for worse. And though we believe that God and His Angels do intervene in
our existences, we're also allowed the freedom to "pass" or "fail" the tests we're given (hence "sin").

(note: In Islam, this "free will" is more like "the ability to reject God" than "the ability to make your own choices". As in, we believe that animals
can make their own decisions, but they have no ability to reject God.)

Depends on which denomination you ask. (Speaking only of believers in Christianity in what follows, obviously. I respect the views of those who do not
believe, or believe totally different things as well.)

Catholic response would be: They do not worship Mary, but venerate her and ask for her intercessions and prayers on their behalf, as they do all
saints (which Catholic doctrine holds the whole of the church is in communion with, through the unity of the Holy Spirit, in the mystical body of
Christ.) As the bearer of God in Christ, and as Christ called her mother to the disciples and likewise the disciples children to her as he approached
his death, she occupies a special place of closeness to Christ. Revelation depicts her as crowned in heaven with 12 stars representing the apostles
and the tribes of Israel, and as the long missing ark of the old covenant is revealed in Revelation as being in heaven, they believe she too - as, in
a sense, the new ark of the new covenant (as the God bearer, as the ark was a dwelling place of God) - dwells in heaven with Him. Finally, Catholics
regard Genesis 3:15 as prophetic of the offspring of Adam and Eve one day leading to the lineage into which Christ would be born, and that the woman
which crushes the head of the serpent is both the Church (as the bride of Christ,) and Mary. E.g. that Satan bruises their heel because of sin and
death and the death of Christ, but they achieve final victory of him. Catholics would also say veneration of Mary, as well as other saints, dates back
to the early church.

Protestant response would be: Veneration of Mary (or any saint) has no scriptural basis, and skirts too near to worship to be acceptable or pleasing
to God. Much of the catholic translation and transliteration of the bible is inaccurate or rendered in contemporary terminology today, tainting the
character and spirit of the words (and the Word.) Hence the early protestant new translations of scripture that remain popular today outside
Catholicism (e.g. the KJV only movement.) Catholic use of religious iconography, statues, gold, etc. also run counter to scriptural commandments and
teachings. The traditions of the catholic and eastern churches are largely man-made, rather than derived directly from the Word of God, and therefore
both sinful and not licit.

Catholic retort would be: Those traditions are what Catholics call "the deposit of the faith," and Catholics believe they are divinely inspired by the
Spirit, in part because Christ said the "gates of hell will not prevail against" the church He established via the apostles, and in part because they
believe that apostolic authority has been passed in an unbroken line via rites and holy orders (that in some ways resemble the different priestly
orders the Jewish people of the time adhered to, but with obvious distinctions in Christianity.)

Protestant retort would be: Catholicism lost its way and does not represent the purity of the early church, and thus that apostolic authority is
neither valid, nor required. (Or, depending on denomination, that same apostolic authority was conveyed upon early protestants and is actually still
present within some non-Catholic denominations. In fact, the Catholic church does actually recognize some non-Catholic denominations as being in
"imperfect communion" with them.)

My response to all would be: No one is perfect. Love one another as yourselves, treat one another and brothers and sisters, and pray for one
another.

originally posted by: Xeven
I am just curious how worship of Mary is not a false Idol?

A 'false idol' as opposed to a 'true idol'?
that sounds like a mess to me, lets just talk about an 'idol' for a moment.
The monotheistic horror of any 'Gods' but theirs, turned all other (faces of) Gods into demons and 'idols'.
It's what they do.
If you are willing to accept that God is One, that means that God is ALL INCLUSIVE!
That means that any and everything in the One Universe is 'God'!
That means that when the Christian worships toward his crucifix with the image of the man nailed to it, or if the Hindu worships the rock with the
eyes painted on it, or the Druid worships Nature, etc...
ALL are worshipping the same... One... God!
We are all unique Perspectives, so we all see the One Reality uniquely, every moment!
So, the idol of Mary (and 'thoughts' are idols) is merely one more face of God!
ALL 'faces/arms/heads... are God's faces, arms...
Not anything exists that is not God!

"The complete Universe (Reality/Truth/God/'Self!'/Tao/Brahman... or any feature herein...) can be completely defined/described as the synchronous
sum-total of all Perspectives!" - Book of Fudd
ALL INCLUSIVE!!!

"The acceptance and understanding of other Perspectives furthers our acquaintance with Reality!"

Also, if God knows everything and is the creator, why did he create sin?

We Know everything! God's Knowledge is no different than Our Knowledge!
Not anything is 'created', what exists is 'perceived'.
We/God did not create anything.
Judgmental (what we call sin) thoughts remain God's thoughts.
All 'thoughts' are God's/Ours!
'Sin' is a feature of the duality of 'thought'.
All 'judgment' is 'Self' judgment! *__-

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