Again I am talking in circles posting the same thing over and over because people are too lazy to read the entirety of my posts.

Or they disagree with all of your posts, including the parts where you say that 6652 might not always be the a good idea. Not because of the message, but because of the phrasing:

Originally Posted by Whydrood

I am merely stating that if the circumstances are such where you cannot get down to 3043, and you don't have enough haste to reach 13k, 6652 is an acceptable stopgap if you can reach it without sacrificing mastery to the point it becomes a loss until you can find the pieces needed to either get back down closer 3043 or get to 13163.

The thing is that this is not helpful advice. There are cases when 6652 is preferable, sure. The above makes it seem like it is better any time you're stuck with a haste value between 3043 and 13163. As has been shown, that's not true: if you are at 4k haste, staying at 4k haste is better than going for 6652. Aside from on heroic Norushen (which is arguably the easiest heroic mode anyway), you'll probably find that staying at 5k is also preferable to going for 6652. It is worth going for if you happen to land just below it even when reforging out of haste but can't gem to reach 13k, which probably doesn't apply to a whole lot of people. Those people are arguably few enough and the difference small enough that 6652 really isn't worth ever mentioning.

The above makes it seem like it is better any time you're stuck with a haste value between 3043 and 13163.

Yeah when you take a post out of context - it does make it seem like that. However if you don't cut anything out this is what it actually says:

Originally Posted by Whydrood

I am not stating to blindly get the 6652 HBP without making sure it is better to stay where you are with haste. I am merely stating that if the circumstances are such where you cannot get down to 3043, and you don't have enough haste to reach 13k, 6652 is an acceptable stopgap if you can reach it without sacrificing mastery to the point it becomes a loss until you can find the pieces needed to either get back down closer 3043 or get to 13163.

Again, you can try and twist words and quote out of context all you want to try and make yourself look like you actually have a point. It doesn't matter because like I said to insanedruid, if this is how you are going to carry on - I'll just stop acknowledging your posts. The rhetoric in these forums seems to be that 6652 is never acceptable - All I have stated is that there are cases where it is acceptable and not a healing loss in every case, and this HBP shouldn't be overlooked. Unless I am misreading, both you and insanedruid agree. Why this conversation still continues I have no clue.

yo guys do you think 13k spirit is ok for thok hc 10m?(that's what I get in order to reach 13k haste)
PS:14 if I get a spirit flask

13k spirit is the exact amount I have been doing this boss with. I've been using that as my soft cap for all of SoO (always with 13k haste).

I've healed heroic Thok with both 4pT15 and 4pT16 (Tier 15 is very strong here and I only switched to T16 after we first killed him), and I found the fight surprisingly easy on mana for the high amount of HPS you need to do. It's no problem to be at 10% mana after healing 30 stacks in P1, since the transition phase is a lot of time for mana regen.

I usually run 13k spirit with one regen trinket (DSD normal) and heal with a disc priest and a shaman, meaning I get hymn and tide (mana might be tighter without those). There is also enough time to use a concentration pot. Since you should not need to push the 3rd P1 for very high stacks, you should be fine as long as you can get back to 100% mana for the second P1 using everything you've got. And don't ever use a spirit flask.

yo guys do you think 13k spirit is ok for thok hc 10m?(that's what I get in order to reach 13k haste)
PS:14 if I get a spirit flask

13k spirit is a pretty normal amount. You rarely actually need more than that, though it may take some getting used to at first. Either way, you probably don't want to use a spirit flask. Giving up int for spirit at a 1:1 ratio is a very poor deal. You'd be better off switching to some mana regeneration trinket.

keeping 1 application up should let you drop some spirit in favor of other stats, if you don't need the heal (I'm not up to date at all with 25 tank healing, but it's probably overhealing), maybe keep it up stacked on fights where there's a dot based debuff, but it shouldn't hit your healing too hard since you'll be using less time to refresh it, and I mean you could probably throw it during dead time when there's less damage and just make a reminder that it's off somewhere, but yah I'd say don't feel pressured to keep 3 stacks up all the time based on your logs in 25s, unless you find a fight where people are going oom and need to cut overhealing and increase mana efficiency, but yah I'd definitely call it a lower priority in your list of stuff to manage

I mean a lot of your fights, when you do use it, it overheals a ton (other than those with dots on the tanks, and with constant ticking damage), but even then it's likely to just be part of a healing snipe on the tank (on most your fights it's about 50-60% overheal, and it's probably just pushing other stuff into slightly more overhealing when it does)

it was about 50-60% overheal on pretty much all fights logged (even norushen, with constant ticking damage, I'm surprised about that) other than IJ (20%), and dark shenanigans (80%, are you in the Kardris group? because if you're in the haromm group, I'm surprised) and of course malkorok, but a lot of these aren't long enough samples due to their low uptimes to really judge well

so basically you'd probably be able to drop a little spirit if you at least throw it one every 15s, but you're probably fine just tossing a single one most of the time and not worrying about the stacking on it and doing so again later on, I guess you'd have more mana to be prepared for other stuff (people being bad) if you always made it a higher priority, but I'm not too far into heroics this tier, so I can't really talk about that, but yah the heal itself seems irrelevant and negligible

this brings us to the omen of clarity procs
as a 10man healer that keeps lifebloom up w/ 13k haste, I usually get about 3 procs per minute or so of this, as where you're getting like 1 or 2 per fight, look at how many times yo gained clear casting per fight in buffs gained on WoL, I have no clue how you heal like that, I usually get about 10-20 clearcasts for a 6 minute fight, which is a lot of free regrowths, meanwhile you're getting it like 1-3 times per fight, you're in your boomy set right now so I don't know how much spirit you roll, but I could definitely see you being able to drop some spirit and still play mostly the same way you do right now (even if it's just throwing lifebloom when there's relatively little damage going out, and I mean just like a single one w/o stacking it) but with more free regrowth casts

assuming these would each replace 1.1 rejuv casts, 15 procs, over 6minutes would save you (I think it's like 9.6k mana per rejuv) per cast -3k per lifebloom and one lifebloom ticks 16 times for 3k mana so so you get about a 64% chance to get it each lifebloom cast, so if I round that to spending 9k on 3 lifeblooms for 2 procs, you'd be saving about 9k mana, per 45s of lifebloom uptime, which is about 800 spirit-ish worth of mana

also the cleave heal and dps from LB can be more significant with NV at 3 stacks, but that's very minor

also, how the crap did you finish immerseus off in 5minutes? shit

- - - Updated - - -

to simplify all that, the healing is negligible fairly often, but if you basically count lifebloom as free and gain a non-stacking 700-1,000 spirit whenever you cast it, ignoring the fact that regrowth heals a bit harder than rejuv

About the gear, i was farming and forgot to logout with the correct set, but i run with =~14600 spirit, sometimes i think my regen is low :|, maybe i spam too much.

Ill keep my eyes on lifebloom now, and try to use the OoC procs correctly (i really have trouble with this, lose about 60% of the procs).

Dark shamans fight: I hate this fight so much, need to pay more attention to things going on, was my first time with haromm group my performance was very bad overall.

Immerseus in 5 minutes? its this low or fast? idk rofl, i just run, and do my heals stuffs and puff boss dead hehe

Anyway, really thanks for the help , gonna focus on this things next raid

Also: About the 4pt16, im running without, i have gloves from spoils and helm from sha of pride both HC WF, what piece is better to grab, tier helm HC or tier gloves HC? Or I can ignore the bonus and keeping running without it

Guys, do you feel really mandatory keep a 100% uptime on lifebloom in 25 man?

It's not mandatory, but it's highly recommended. Lifebloom provides a decent amount of healing per cast time and costs almost no mana, while providing you with clearcasting procs. The spell gets more efficient and effective the better you are at keeping it up, as it only takes one cast to refresh the whole stack. The clearcast procs also make it easier to keep Harmony up without having to spam Swiftmend on cooldown. That way you can save it for your next Wild Growth.

Originally Posted by lenwedruid

As my logs shows, my lifebloom uptime is really poor, but i want to always improve, is there anything else i can do/can improve?

You could use Barkskin and Ironbark more. Both are free and off the GCD, so there's really no point in not casting them whenever there's unavoidable damage. Other than that and the low Lifebloom uptime, it looks good as far as I can tell.

My druid is just my most recent alt, haven't really cared much about reforging or optimizing him at all yet. I'm currently 545 ilvl and able to hit the 13k breakpoint if I gem mainly for haste. I'd still have about 14k spirit so I guess that's fine. Going to reforge/finish alchemy/fix shoulder enchant and gems/get whatever glyphs I need and such the next time I log. As the alt is so new I don't really have any valor for upgrades, will upgrade weapon as soon as I can though. Would you guys recommend 13k haste or stick to the 6k breakpoint instead?

Edit: How exactly does the amplifier trinket works? If I have 1000 haste from gear and the trinket equipped, will it then show as 1060 haste (if 6%, can't recall) when looking at my stats?

Edit: How exactly does the amplifier trinket works? If I have 1000 haste from gear and the trinket equipped, will it then show as 1060 haste (if 6%, can't recall) when looking at my stats?

Yes. It works only on actual haste rating from gear. So if you have 1000 haste rating, 1000*1.06 = 1060. However the 6% displayed by the trinket is a rounded number. The actual value is what is multiplied (theres a chart online you can look up for the exact percentage)

For example, if you have a normal Pride trinket, upgraded x2 to ilvl 561, it may display 8%, but the actual percentage is 7.5427%
So in the case of 1000 rating, you get 1000*1.075427 = 1075.43 (which the game then rounds to 1075 or 1076 rating)

To figure out how much you need to reach the breakpoint, you do the reverse. Say i want 13163. 13163/1.075427 = 12239.80. That means to reach the breakpoint you want 12240 haste rating from gear, without the trinket on (once you put it on, it'll bring you to 13164 and reach your breakpoint)

Would you guys recommend 13k haste or stick to the 6k breakpoint instead?

3k or 13k. Pick one. At some point in gearing you'll no longer be able to stay near 3k no matter how you try, and then you might as well go for 13k. Never bother with anything in between if you can avoid it. It's a rather silly situation where haste is either something you reforge out of in every slot or into in every slot, but that's just life as a HoT class right now.

It's been decided over and over again that if you can comfortably reach the 13k bp you should do it. It is a healing increase over the 3k bp. The only issues I have are that she's over the haste cap by a decent margin and she's using Nazgrim's trinket, which is generally considered the worst of the healing trinkets on nearly every fight.

If you go askmrrobot.com and put in your character, set your haste to 13163 and adjust your spirit (I put in an even 14000 spirit) and hit optimize, you can see that by changing a few gems and forges, you can hit 13167 haste rather than her current 13311. It's a very small change but you're looking to get exactly haste cap and as much mastery as you possibly can without sacrificing your spirit level. Doing it this way gives her almost 800 more mastery which isn't anything to sneeze at.

Edit: Why is she using the healing touch glyph? She doesn't have SotF so she can't be wanting more swiftmends that badly. The only fight I take that on is spoils and shamans because I don't have 6 targets for my wild growth glyph to hit. She should replace the healing touch glyph with the glyph of regrowth, and I would also recommend taking the glyph of wild growth instead of rebirth. The 100% rez is nice but if you die when you rez at 60% something else went wrong...like rezzing right before a calamity on protectors. This can be avoided by simple communication.

Last edited by Jordaen; 2013-12-26 at 02:01 AM.

Originally Posted by Socialhealer

judging 25man raiding by LFR standards saying it requires no coordination, is like saying 5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

Most of the time I use the prison trinket and the other one form the siegecrafter (non heroic version). Only if I'm realy realy fine with my manaregen in a fight I use the Nazgrim trinket (yeah it is bad.. but the trinket from thok is even worse in my opinion. Except for the Thok fight..).

Thanks for pointing out the wasted points of haste for the 13k breakpoint. Just got my new necklace with haste today and started forging toward the new breakpoint.. I'll fix it tomorrow!

I often change my glyphs for the fights - so my current glyphs were only for raiding the non heroic SoO today. Thanks for your advice! ...And I realy love the Rebirth glyph.

Most of the time I use the prison trinket and the other one form the siegecrafter (non heroic version). Only if I'm realy realy fine with my manaregen in a fight I use the Nazgrim trinket (yeah it is bad.. but the trinket from thok is even worse in my opinion. Except for the Thok fight..).

Thanks for pointing out the wasted points of haste for the 13k breakpoint. Just got my new necklace with haste today and started forging toward the new breakpoint.. I'll fix it tomorrow!

I often change my glyphs for the fights - so my current glyphs were only for raiding the non heroic SoO today. Thanks for your advice! ...And I realy love the Rebirth glyph.

Ah, that makes sense with Nazgrim's, and that's fine as long as your regen isn't lacking. The rebirth glyph is fine, but I really would replace the healing touch one with regrowth. You'll get a lot more mileage out of it. The thok trinket is actually the one you want to use in place of the DSD from Siegecrafter, but only if they're all the same ilvl and only fights like Norushen and Thok (stacked(ish) constant aoe healing). If your nazgrim's is heroic and Thok's isn't, you are right to use Nazgrim's.

Originally Posted by Socialhealer

judging 25man raiding by LFR standards saying it requires no coordination, is like saying 5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

...she's using Nazgrim's trinket, which is generally considered the worst of the healing trinkets on nearly every fight.

It's not behind by all that much, though, considering it has a much more reliable proc. It procs several times per second as a druid, so it's more or less comparable to an intellect boost, just one that's not quite as impressive as it could have been. Thok procs much less frequently and is a bit more prone to overhealing, making it a bit less reliable.