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Re: Unions Kill Hostess

This is what the Wall Street Journal on-line had to say:

The company's burdensome debt traces back to Hostess's first trip through bankruptcy in 2004. Missteps by a private-equity firm, hedge funds and managers since burdened the company, despite its more than $2 billion in annual sales.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

There had been a previous bankruptcy in which the union gave major concessions apparently, only to see the company be run poorly by vulture capitalists and hedge funds. The workers probably just got tired of giving concessions that went directly into the pockets of Wall Street parasites instead of making the business a going concern.

Eventually the same thing will happen to GM. The union parasites will devour the new company ... it's only a matter of time.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by cityboy-stl

I'm saying both are bad. Leadership starts at the top. No? That's what you always say anyway. If executives had given themselves 50% pay cuts instead of mega percent increases it would set a good faith example and provided incentive for cooperation and compromise. I'll bet they could have renegotiated union contracts and stayed in business. But no. The 1% gives themselves big salary increases and expects nothing but sacrifice and capitulation from the 99%. I don't for a second believe this whole thing wasn't planned to turn out this way and the 1% of the company will end up richer than ever while the 99% are unemployed. These are Mitt Romney - Bain Capital tactics and one of the main reasons why he lost.

I agree totally

BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Labor has the ability to shut down a business when the business is not engaging in fair practices and fair labor.

labor is one element of a Capitalist economy that requires a union, just to easily deal with fair pay and industry salary standards with input from all parties. Many MANY union negotiations occur that are quite mutually enjoyable and equitable for all sides involved.

labor DOES have the power to strike, and affect the business they have issues with. How can I say this clearly...

If companies are not occasionally shut down by unhappy employees, then employers of the nation's labor force will not respect their human resources. There has to be a real threat with real consequences if Corporate vultures are put before the needs of the laborers.

The economy needs less underemployed people, we all hear from the GOP, but when an org stands up to make sure that people are not being underpaid or underemployed, the union is castigated.

Foolish.

We're gonna sit down and have ourselves a drink! And after we're done - after *I'm* done, you can run upstairs and take whichever one of them little pills makes you feel the best~Dolores Claiborne

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by loki81

I hope their righteous indignation is keeping their families fed.

Hostess was fucked either way, in the long term... had the Baker's Union agreed to the concessions though (like the Teamster's Union did), they may have had a few extra months to look for a new job while collecting their salary.

the Teamsters were urging the Bakers to put the contract agreement up for an anonymous vote... without public peer pressure, my guess is that it would have passed.

your point is duly noted and said many x before

yet the talking points memo continues to be flat out union = good

couple more mos. of pay = good if you ask me

unions working against their own good and the good of their brothers is not a good thing

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

After reading more into this, this situation was a complete wash and I don't think it was possible for the company to float. I won't say all hedge fund managers or venture capitalists are evil but when there isn't an open dialogue between management and their employees, the company is almost guaranteed to head to financial ruin.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by maxpowr9

After reading more into this, this situation was a complete wash and I don't think it was possible for the company to float. I won't say all hedge fund managers or venture capitalists are evil but when there isn't an open dialogue between management and their employees, the company is almost guaranteed to head to financial ruin.

Absolutely, and it shouldn't be any other way.

And lets face it, they will sell the rights to someone for making twinkies, as the company is dissolved, so there will be a twinkie reboot by a company that is more solvent.

We're gonna sit down and have ourselves a drink! And after we're done - after *I'm* done, you can run upstairs and take whichever one of them little pills makes you feel the best~Dolores Claiborne

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

You don't run a company by cutting and cutting the salaries of your employees, demanding that they compensate for your incompetence by sacrificing themselves, even as you increase your own salary.

Hostess is being liquidated because it is more valuable to the incompetent owners in liquidation than it is as an operating company. That is, as some have pointed out, the Bain Capital method of "capitalism." The workers are being vilified because they refused to enslave themselves so that bad managers might get even richer.

Hostess's workers are not some evil force victimizing the poor, noble, angelic owners who only want to give them jobs. They are fed up with being exploited and being lied to. They want to be treated fairly.

But, somehow, Hostess's management thinks it is the workers' fault that it is unable to pay them their salaries.

Amen and thank you! This is about a company not willing or able to do the necessary research and development to remain viable. Corporations aren't people but they do have life cycles that will end unless steps are taken to reinvent themselves. This wasn't about union concessions. The answer to production is products that are wanted.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Meanwhile in other news 18,000 ex-union workers applied at Walmart where there are no unions.......

It may have been an absolute shit business - no doubt. However I bet if anyone were to have the ability to ask the 18000 if they would rather receive a 8% less paycheck then they would agree wholeheartedly. Ask them in about a couple months and everyone of them will agree.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Oh I have no doubt they will pass the unemployment benefits... republicans are looking to weak to block anything... however I have also had the pleasure of talking with the unemployed and NONE of them would prefer that check over work.... some even say they would work for less than what the check provides.....

Unemployment is debilitating.

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by JayHawk

Oh I have no doubt they will pass the unemployment benefits... republicans are looking to weak to block anything... however I have also had the pleasure of talking with the unemployed and NONE of them would prefer that check over work.... some even say they would work for less than what the check provides.....

Unemployment is debilitating.

Lets see who buys the factory in the liquidation process. I have a feeling, something new will start there. In the meantime, the laborers will have to live with the stand they took on the principle of the issue.

We're gonna sit down and have ourselves a drink! And after we're done - after *I'm* done, you can run upstairs and take whichever one of them little pills makes you feel the best~Dolores Claiborne

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

If the unions really killed Twinkies and Wonder Bread, good on them.

I don't think that's what happened. Typical capitalist spin.

Less seriously, how am I going to explain the origin of the word 'twink(ie)' (young gay man) when no one knows what a Twinkies™ is anymore?!?!? A sad day for the etymology freaks...but a small price to pay.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by Just_Believe18

Rather than blaming the unions, you should look into the bad mismanagement of the company that coupled with declining sales that forced this stalemate in negotiations. The company expected its workers to take more paycuts to cover their bonuses and bad management. Then the finances collapsed and everyone went down with the ship. It's sad that thousands of these workers are going to be unemployed, but to blame the workers themselves is disingenuous.

The company is going to make big out of this financial collapse. They now get to sell their trademarks, recipes, patents, machinery and infrastructure to the "highest bidders." They're going to make millions off of a dying product line, and the workers you're blaming are going to be unemployed.

I'm not certain I'm blaming the workers -- it's more the leaders they chose.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

the Teamsters were urging the Bakers to put the contract agreement up for an anonymous vote... without public peer pressure, my guess is that it would have passed.

Which is why the Teamsters had some caustic comments about the Bakers' union.

Perhaps the two unions should have stood together about the wages -- and demanded that executive compensation be reduced to no more than ten times the median worker pay.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by BostonPirate

Labor has the ability to shut down a business when the business is not engaging in fair practices and fair labor.

labor is one element of a Capitalist economy that requires a union, just to easily deal with fair pay and industry salary standards with input from all parties. Many MANY union negotiations occur that are quite mutually enjoyable and equitable for all sides involved.

labor DOES have the power to strike, and affect the business they have issues with. How can I say this clearly...

If companies are not occasionally shut down by unhappy employees, then employers of the nation's labor force will not respect their human resources. There has to be a real threat with real consequences if Corporate vultures are put before the needs of the laborers.

The economy needs less underemployed people, we all hear from the GOP, but when an org stands up to make sure that people are not being underpaid or underemployed, the union is castigated.

Foolish.

So killing Hostess may have been a good thing. But did it serve the purpose you outline?

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by chance1

ever have one of these ? OMG so good

Sinfully decadent.

<yum>

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by JayHawk

Oh I have no doubt they will pass the unemployment benefits... republicans are looking to weak to block anything... however I have also had the pleasure of talking with the unemployed and NONE of them would prefer that check over work.... some even say they would work for less than what the check provides.....

Unemployment is debilitating.

I've known just one who did. He hated his job, but it left him so dead tired he didn't have the energy to really look for a new one. After just a couple of months on unemployment, allowing him to spend six hours a day looking for new work, he found what to him is such a dream job that he goes home happy every day and gets up excited to go to work.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by Críostóir

If the unions really killed Twinkies and Wonder Bread, good on them.

I don't think that's what happened. Typical capitalist spin.

Less seriously, how am I going to explain the origin of the word 'twink(ie)' (young gay man) when no one knows what a Twinkies™ is anymore?!?!? A sad day for the etymology freaks...but a small price to pay.

It appears that management and vulture capitalists had pretty well beaten the company into crippled state, but the unions pulled the trigger at the end.

"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Meh... they were already in bankruptcy....

Still if they had been honest with the grave situation.... I for one would rather have a job getting eight percent less money while I look for another rather than wait thirty days then start getting unemployment at a fraction of the pay I was receiving....

Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

All that $1 stuff seems to have happened when the lifeboats were already being launched. The workers didn't kill this company, bad management did.

No way around that, profitable, well run companies don't have to ask workers to take pay cuts or punish bad mangers.

Don't like it capitalists? This is capitalism in action.

The company went under, because the management sucked ass.

Sorry all you processed pastry fans - I never could stand the things, or the ding-dongs, and those chocodiles look pretty nasty too.

Ugh, soggy preservative ridden, melt your teeth sugar saturated cake, stuffed with plastic, yet more sugar saturated "cream," I never did get that, even as a kid. If it was just the cake, maybe, but that "cream" stuff is just really vile.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by Kulindahr

An iconic company we all know and some love is shutting down, permanently, this being its final bankruptcy of three in eight years. The final straw? Unions that refused to compromise, even though the company warned them it was teetering on the edge of no return.

There are unions, and there are unions -- and plainly this one was too greedy, and now suffers the logical consequences of grasping at too much: instead of continuing working, albeit at lower wages, they are out of jobs, income reduced to zero.

And in all likelihood, their stubborness will cost the taxpayers as pensions will have to be covered.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

As with any complicated issue, there are two sides to every story. It appeared as though that mismanagement was the true cause of the downfall of Hostess ... and management wanted the workers to sacrifice even more and live on un-liveable wages as a result of their mis-management of the company.

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by MystikWizard

As with any complicated issue, there are two sides to every story. It appeared as though that mismanagement was the true cause of the downfall of Hostess ... and management wanted the workers to sacrifice even more and live on un-liveable wages as a result of their mis-management of the company.

I sympathize with the workers, though. It is what it is.

And to me that's what truly sucks about the so called "class warfare" ..."47% mentality" of our country.

I'm IN "management" but I'm a "middle manager."

I have employees that are making just above "minimum wage," and because I work with them everyday, get to know them personally, trust them, and count on them to do what I pay them to do, they're looking over my shoulder at my "management."

Sometimes I fell like the "shop foreman."

I'm going to get f u c kayed either way.

Those above me, who've worked their way up through the ranks seem to have forgotten what it's like to "be on the front lines."

Those beneath me on the "corporate ladder" only seem to be thinking about what they have to do keep their utilities paid, and food on the table.

So I agree, it's not as black and white, as some would paint it.

We're talking about REAL people here. Some are going to get off better than others, but either way another American Company has just bit the dust, and the only one's who are going to profit from this are the hedge fund managers, the lawyers, the Bain Capital types, real estate agents on their commission for helping to liquidate the physical assets, and it's done.

And here in Dallas, within a week or two, those people (with years of experience, and seniority with Hostess Brands; the same people who were my vendors just a few days ago) will be approaching me for a job paying just above minimum wage.

HOO RAH!

But it's all "organized labor's" fault.

Look what that got them.

Last edited by Centexfarmer; November 17th, 2012 at 07:44 PM.

Favorite comment quote read on Youtube: "My Laptop fell off the back of the boat, and now I have a Dell Rolling in the Deep."

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by loki81

the management is definitely responsible for the ultimate downfall.

but I'd say the Baker's Union is probably why these guys won't have another few months worth of steady income while looking for a new job and won't see a buyout option that could involve keeping the existing factories running.

my guess is that these guys stay unemployed and the brand name, recipes, and trademarks are sold to a company with production lines in Mexico.

It happened to Mrs. Bairds here in Dallas, and to of all companies a corporation in Mexico called BIMBOS.

Republican and Democrats keep talking about "bringing manufacturing BACK to America," but what's never discussed are which American companies own them.

In the "Global Economy" money knows no boundaries; party, state, or national lines.

That is going to be the battle of the 21st Century IMHO.

When the "workers of the world unite."

So far, here in America, "Unionized Labor" has failed the American Worker, and our elected Representatives (regardless of party) have failed Americans.

While doing their best to convince "middle managers" like me and others, that we're just "one wrung away" from being above it all.

Last edited by Centexfarmer; November 17th, 2012 at 07:59 PM.

Favorite comment quote read on Youtube: "My Laptop fell off the back of the boat, and now I have a Dell Rolling in the Deep."

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by GiancarloC

That's exactly it, centex. People need to not jump to conclusions and blame labor unions. It seems to be a common theme in the US... to blame labor unions for their unrealistic demands. It was the management that took out a series of bad loans they couldn't pay back. Even if sales were down only 2%, the management saddled the company with debt. So much for blaming those pesky unions... again, that clearly shows management is almost entirely at fault for the downfall of the company.

There's a flip-side to that too.

"Corporations" like the one that I work far don't measure "profit and loss" by investment or inventory, but through "margin."

If the employees or the "customers" are literally taking advantage of our presence in any given community, that eats into the "margin" of even staying in business there.

On a "Corporate Level" the more successful "stores" help to cover the losses of the others.

For example; When I worked in Management for Walmart SuperCenters, KRAFT FOODS would "cut" Walmart Corporate in Bentonville, Arkansas a great deal on creamed cheese.

The "margin of profit" on each brick of Philadelphia Creamed Cheese was averaged upon the "margin" of profit (versus spoilage, theft, and each case making it to check out).

MOST, (upwards of 78% of Walmart SuperCenters) showed a "profit margin" around 20% of each "brick" sold.

Each store averaged 8 to 10 cases, at 12 bricks per PER CASE PER DAY, that's a nice margin.

HOSTESS BRANDS did NOT innovate with the times, and their declining market share of the margin.

Frito Lay is a great example.

Do you think that if all that they sold were Fritos and Lays Potato Chips that they'd still be in business?

If anything I hear their Box Truck drivers bitching that they're not putting enough of those products out their for purchase anymore.

But HOSTESS BRANDS, and the "right wing" pundits want to blame "labor" for their failures, and that there are so many who want buy into that argument when there are so few Americans who even know WHERE and HOW their snacks arrive in their hands everyday is...frankly...depressing.

Favorite comment quote read on Youtube: "My Laptop fell off the back of the boat, and now I have a Dell Rolling in the Deep."

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

I cannot "read" Centexfarmer's messages because "of" the abundant and mis-used quotation "marks" he includes in his posts. Doesn't he know that they are used to cast doubt about the words quoted, as in:

Re: Unions Kill Hostess

Originally Posted by dat outside dick

I cannot "read" Centexfarmer's messages because "of" the abundant and mis-used quotation "marks" he includes in his posts. Doesn't he know that they are used to cast doubt about the words quoted, as in:

A group of Tea Party "patriots" wants to arrest Latinos on sight.

I hope that "he" can break himself of "this" fatuous habit.

It would seem that your claim that you "cannot" read Centexfarmer's posts is fatuous as evidenced by your having done so in order to comment on them.