Every class was going so smoothly that I thought Shasta was a natural. That is, until Saturdays class, which was our last class.
She wimpered for me right from the start and as the minutes seemed like an eternity, she was calling, MOM! MOM! Yes, she says mom. The longer I stayed out, the louder the MOM's got.
Would have been cute and the others in the hall were giggling not because we were failing severely, but because they never heard her say mom before.
I didn't realize she had to stay with the trainer (a male) for the 3 minutes. If it was a woman or even a male she knew well, she would have been ok. I don't get out much and she's never been left with someone she doesn't really know.
The test is this Saturday. I've been knocking at a few doors asking a few people for what must seem to them a rediculas request, but asking if they have male friends I can practice with for this week. I'm THAT desparate!
The trainer said she is totally bonded to me, which is a good thing, but to a fault. I have been caging her more frequently and ignoring her a lot this week. He told me to try to distant myself from her.
The test said we were to leave them with someone we trusted for 3 minutes without there being excessive stress. I took that to mean I could leave her with one of my friends at the class that Shasta knows. The trainers only contact with Shasta was when he shook my hand and patted her on the head the one time. Granted, all the other dogs did fine with him, so I'm not making excuses for her.
Does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can try to teach her this by Saturday?

Take it slower first just hand over the lead and stay there while the person holds your dog. Don't make a big deal of it.

Start increasing your distance from the dog a bit, but so that she can still see you

Next leave her for only a few seconds and have the trainer or your helper give her nice stinky treats.

Increase the time as she gets more comfortable.

You may or may not have it done by Saturday.... most likely not. Don't rush it. or you will create more stress

Good Luck

Hope that helps

Patch O' Pits Pursuit-O-Perfection

Run Hard at the Rainbow Bridge My Angel Sock-M! I Love You Baby Girl! Now that your Mom Starlit is up there too, please help her learn the ropes, love and keep her company until I can see you both again. Starlit I love you!http://i14.tinypic.com/2a8q345.jpg

I so wanted and still want this so badly, not because we can't try again, but more to show the government our dogs shouldn't be banned. This was sooo important, and I guess it was what made me take this course at this time or I would have waited until at least I could afford it.
The pressure is on me for this reason, or maybe I'm putting this pressure on myself. I'm not sure.
I know they can feel our negativity and trying to stay positive, but there has been so many changes that both Shasta and I have been going through and doing.
From sleeping beside me all her life to a crate. She loves it, but off furnature when I allowed her at anytime. Not eatting until I finally do and finish. My 22 year old cat just passing away. Me pushing her away. It's all so overwhelming to me, yet I try to give off positive happy vibes.
Yes, I now understand the importance of all this, but you change our life style so drastically rather than weaning her by steps.
The course has helped in so much. Me understanding what she needs and how I'm Alpha, but I miss 'loving' her and having our special times like we did. Yes, I can handle the restrictions like no having her sleep with me and the food bit and even the constant training that is becoming habit now, but this part of her being too bonded with me, some people would give their eye teeth to have the closeness we have.
I think the important thing the trainer is forgetting in our case, is I have severe disabilities, phobias and health problems. Shasta and my cat Petu is smetimes the only ones I see all week until my girlfriend comes to get us for training.
Her manners have increased 100% in the house when company comes as she was just as excited to see friends as I was, but outside, she was a different dog that was so mannerly, you wouldn't think her the same dog.
If I do fail this test...and I'm only saying if, because there's still a chance of finding guys to help me, but do I redo the whole course over again or can I just pay so much anf get retested again once she has leanet how to stay with a male?
Perhaps knowing that might take some pressure off of me.
I was already thinking of the next course to get her in after this and I suppose that would be advanced intermediate according to my trainer.
I'm on disability, so I'm not financially well off by any means and like this course, I used my grocery money and Christmas money I received as gifts to get her in the course. That's how important she is to me and the training to make sure she makes no mistakes so nothing can happen to her with this ban. One false move (teeny accident) and her life is on the line. I couldn't bare that. Just thinking about it has tears running down my face, so it's very hard to relax and me with chronic anxiety too.
It's because of her that I can even leave the house now and talk to people. My health problems didn't effect her negatively then, as she only brought joy to me. Now I feeling I'm like punishing her by ignoring her for the week. I'm not happy, that's for sure, but keep telling myself, if it will help her pass, I'll do anything he tells me.
Here I am our first delemia an I'm in a panic. Everything else was a piece of cake and nothing fizzed on her. She's used to crowds and loud noises as we even watch fireworks displays together and walk through over crowded streets for her to pull the sled or agon to bring home my groceries.
Because she can't stay with a strange male seems so small in compared to what she can do and do well. Unfortunately, that doesn't pass the test. *sigh*

The course has helped in so much. Me understanding what she needs and how I'm Alpha, but I miss 'loving' her and having our special times like we did. Yes, I can handle the restrictions like no having her sleep with me and the food bit and even the constant training that is becoming habit now, but this part of her being too bonded with me, some people would give their eye teeth to have the closeness we have.

huh?

why can't she sleep with you or be fed before you eat? I'm missing something....

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

The course has helped in so much. Me understanding what she needs and how I'm Alpha, but I miss 'loving' her and having our special times like we did. Yes, I can handle the restrictions like no having her sleep with me and the food bit and even the constant training that is becoming habit now, but this part of her being too bonded with me, some people would give their eye teeth to have the closeness we have.

huh?

why can't she sleep with you or be fed before you eat? I'm missing something....

All mine sleep in my bed and they still know I am Alpha.

Of course you absolutely have the chance of passing and it is up to you , but I would personally wait. If you are stressed about the test. I'd give her more training time and skip this test and do the next one. If you feel stressed so will she and that doesn't help the situation. It is not a bad thing to wait for another day.

How often do they offer the test in your area?

Patch O' Pits Pursuit-O-Perfection

Run Hard at the Rainbow Bridge My Angel Sock-M! I Love You Baby Girl! Now that your Mom Starlit is up there too, please help her learn the ropes, love and keep her company until I can see you both again. Starlit I love you!http://i14.tinypic.com/2a8q345.jpg

The reason he is teaching us hard core Alpha is because our bullies lives are on the line here and there is no room for mistake by owner or dog. A nip constitutes a vicious attack.
An 8 year old family dog, a pittie that never bit in her whole life was being teased by a man. He wanted that dog to bite him because he was a jerk. The owner wasn't there but her sister was and she couldn't get the guy to leave the dog alone. She finally gave a growl and still he wouldn't stop. She finally gave him a scratch with her tooth. NOW he was happy. He called the authorities, showed the broken skin with the slight bit of blood and a distroy order was issued on her from the courts.
Am I stressed? I don't know any bullie owner in Ontario that isn't stressed out at the possibilities that it could be our dog.
The reason the testing is being done, not even in my city but we drive an hour to get there, is because we not only want to make sure we know how to react in any given situation (such as the wrestling them down to the ground) incase of an aggressive situation, is for the education and training of bullie owners because of the ban.
It's not a simple situation about being able to take it over again. The trainer is out of Toronto and meeting us 1/2 way as he also has classes in Toronto too. He wants us to pass and to receive certificates to photocopy to send to the government to prove the bullie breeds are passing this course and proving the government wrong.
Today, I tried something different. All day we worked on this until my body is totally killing me, but I saw improvement and if we can keep on like this evry day, we just might have it by Saturday. *fingers crossed*
We walked to my daughters today, but rather than bringing her in, I put her in the fenced in back yard. She started crying immediately.
I waited a little bit, ignored her in the yard and had her lay and stay, but once I was out of her sight she cried again.
My daughter had a bone she was waiting to give me for her, so instead, I took it out and gave it to her and came in the house. She was out there for an hour and not a peep.
That made me think, if I could get her mind off of me while alone, we just might be able to do this. I went out and praised her up one side and down the other like no tomorrow that she did so good.
Coming home we are naturally doing all our training and I decided I needed to go in the grocery store. This is usually crying city for her, but I just wanted to see. I tied her up and went inside, only I didn't shop. I stayed where she couldn't see or hear me out of sight and probably looked very suspicious to the customers wondering what I was doing. I stayed a loooong 10 minutes, that felt like hours, but she just sat and was looking around. Didn't get up to move and most of all, no wimper or crying.
I went back outside and snuggled her up all over again to let her know she did real good. Her muzzle was thumping me and it hurt from her excitement, but I knew she was realizing what it was I was trying to teach her.
Again I told her to sit and stay, and this time I actually did go and buy the few things I needed. Came out and it was the first time she wasn't swarmed by a crowd of laughing people that normally surround her when I come out by her frantic Mom crying.
This hasn't taught her to stay with a guy, but staying alone (sorry guys) is kind of the same in a way and I don't mean any disrespect to the men here.
I can keep on working on this, plus now I have a question. If I were to bring her a small treat to chomp on (can't cry if the mouth is busy as like how the bone worked earlier), is that allowed?
I feel sooo much more positive after today that I think with hard work on our part, we will have this mastered by Saturday even if it kills me.

Conners wrote:The reason he is teaching us hard core Alpha is because our bullies lives are on the line here and there is no room for mistake by owner or dog.

I understand why obediance training is extremely important. Our pit bull club holds training for the CGC and TDI.

But I still don't see where treating a dog that isn't Alpha like that helps.

Today, I tried something different. All day we worked on this until my body is totally killing me, but I saw improvement and if we can keep on like this evry day, we just might have it by Saturday. *fingers crossed*We walked to my daughters today, but rather than bringing her in, I put her in the fenced in back yard. She started crying immediately.I waited a little bit, ignored her in the yard and had her lay and stay, but once I was out of her sight she cried again.

Crying is not a reason to fail the test. If it's excessive maybe but not a little wimper.

Coming home we are naturally doing all our training and I decided I needed to go in the grocery store. This is usually crying city for her, but I just wanted to see. I tied her up and went inside, only I didn't shop. I stayed where she couldn't see or hear me out of sight and probably looked very suspicious to the customers wondering what I was doing. I stayed a loooong 10 minutes, that felt like hours, but she just sat and was looking around. Didn't get up to move and most of all, no wimper or crying.

Again I told her to sit and stay, and this time I actually did go and buy the few things I needed. Came out and it was the first time she wasn't swarmed by a crowd of laughing people that normally surround her when I come out by her frantic Mom crying.

IMO tying any dog up outside a store but especially a pit bull is not something that should be done.

I can keep on working on this, plus now I have a question. If I were to bring her a small treat to chomp on (can't cry if the mouth is busy as like how the bone worked earlier), is that allowed?

Conners wrote:The reason he is teaching us hard core Alpha is because our bullies lives are on the line here and there is no room for mistake by owner or dog.

I understand why obediance training is extremely important. Our pit bull club holds training for the CGC and TDI.

But I still don't see where treating a dog that isn't Alpha like that helps.

Ontario, Canada is home to the province wide Pit bull ban. Pitties are being put down for their breed. Michael Bryant wants our dogs GONE! The law is so vague that one false move on our part or theirs WILL cost them their lives.Say if I was walking Shasta and some (any) breed came to attack her, or even a gang cornered me and attacked me. She's defenseless with the muzzle. That in itself would totally freak her out because she wouldn't even be able to defend herself or me.I asked the attorney general that very question and received a 2 page snail mail back from him. The first page and a half lectured me of the law and all the procedured that Pit bull owners must abide to. We KNOW that already and are being responsible.FINALLY, he got to my question (sort of). If I am being attacked or my dog while out for a walk providing my Pit bull is properly muzzled and on the required leash size, I have the right to call the police.That does not help me if they kick my dog half to death and stick a knife in my back does it. I can't say, 'give me your cell phone so I can call 911 on you.'He also said, that if I did have to fight back, I have to be within the law, although he didn't know what that law might be in my city. Fine, but the law breakers that attack us aren't following the law are they?I'm disabled with health problems and weigh 85 pounds...or close to. So I never go out except during the day when there are plenty of people around anymore. But if something like that did happen and Shasta somehow managed to get her muzzle off to defend me, they (AC) would put her down because of her breed and because she is Grandfathered.The hard core training is to prevent her from doing anything on her own. It teaches her, I am Alpha and I will be the one defending no matter what situation arises. It teaches her restraint should a situation that calls for drastic measures does arrise.

Today, I tried something different. All day we worked on this until my body is totally killing me, but I saw improvement and if we can keep on like this evry day, we just might have it by Saturday. *fingers crossed*We walked to my daughters today, but rather than bringing her in, I put her in the fenced in back yard. She started crying immediately.I waited a little bit, ignored her in the yard and had her lay and stay, but once I was out of her sight she cried again.

Crying is not a reason to fail the test. If it's excessive maybe but not a little wimper.

Believe me. It was non-stop and only became louder. It was quite excessive.

Coming home we are naturally doing all our training and I decided I needed to go in the grocery store. This is usually crying city for her, but I just wanted to see. I tied her up and went inside, only I didn't shop. I stayed where she couldn't see or hear me out of sight and probably looked very suspicious to the customers wondering what I was doing. I stayed a loooong 10 minutes, that felt like hours, but she just sat and was looking around. Didn't get up to move and most of all, no wimper or crying.

Again I told her to sit and stay, and this time I actually did go and buy the few things I needed. Came out and it was the first time she wasn't swarmed by a crowd of laughing people that normally surround her when I come out by her frantic Mom crying.

IMO tying any dog up outside a store but especially a pit bull is not something that should be done.

And I TOTALLY agree with you, but I use her as my service dog. Since because of her breed, I can not get her certified, I can not take her in with me. I can't carry groceries home myself and need her to use her strength to pull the wagon or sled. I'm not alowed to drive anymore because of the cognative and memory problems I have to deal with at times. I have phobias of public transportation and although Shasta has gotten me out in public and over my fear of people, I have a lot of issues that still restricts me.When I go to the store, I go in as quickly as possible and only get the things I really need unless I can finally get a friend to drive me, then I will take my time and get all that I really need. But rides are scarse, so Shasta and I have to do things that I don't like to do and yes, it definitely scares me. I TRY to go to most stores with large windows and often have the cashiers watching her for me knowing my situation.

I can keep on working on this, plus now I have a question. If I were to bring her a small treat to chomp on (can't cry if the mouth is busy as like how the bone worked earlier), is that allowed?

No.

I think you'll pass the test just fine.

I didn't think so, but no harm done by asking. And by what happened today, I think we have a very good shot. She's excellent with all the other steps and with us working on this one diligently and her finially starting to understanding she needs to wait patiently for me without the fuss, I'm feeling much more relaxed and confident.
Today I saw my happy girl back again and it cheered my heart to see her that way. But then again, she saw her happy mama back again too.

Things are really bad up there in Ontario, I knew it was bad but it sinks in much more when you post things like this:

Conners wrote: A nip constitutes a vicious attack. An 8 year old family dog, a pittie that never bit in her whole life was being teased by a man. He wanted that dog to bite him because he was a jerk. The owner wasn't there but her sister was and she couldn't get the guy to leave the dog alone. She finally gave a growl and still he wouldn't stop. She finally gave him a scratch with her tooth. NOW he was happy. He called the authorities, showed the broken skin with the slight bit of blood and a distroy order was issued on her from the courts.

And about if your dog defends you from harm, she would pay with her life... Oh, that is so F-ed up. And those who have made this terrible law do not even know how it is to be interpreted nor how it can be enforced...

I'll be thinking of you both on Saturday and I bet you and Shasta will pass. Fingers crossed and good luck!
.

But the bright side is when we win with the amendments and what we are asking for, our dogs will once more be able to be happy, socialized dogs playing with others and not needing the aweful muzzles all the time.
We'll be going after the PEOPLE that need to be dealt with harshly and save dogs from their wicked ways.
The way I see it, if BSL can grow like a cancer, then when people see our way WORKS, I think other provinces and countries will catch on. It just could break the mold of BSL!!!

And the way Shasta and I have been working diligently and positively, I think we have a good chance. Both Shasta and I have been in such a good frame of mind and that has made a world of difference.

I'll be letting you know how it went and hopefully, I can post WE DID IT!!!!

From what you have written here I'm wondering if this trainer you hired is too over the top. You sound unhappy and stressed. How is that helping you or the dog?

The hardcore alpha stuff he is having you do is usually only needed for a truely dominant alpha dog, which there are very few of.

Both of my dogs sleep with me as well.

Great post. Lots of trainers are over-the-top, and I agree this one may well be, too.

I don't go for all this "you walk through doors first"---"you eat first," etc. Yes, dogs can be similar to wolves, but they're not wolves. They've been domesticated and they've learned to live with people. I'm pretty sure every owner that has good control and a good relationship with their dog isn't spending their day walking through doors first and eating first, .

When people go to training class, they should use the info. that suits their needs and disregard what doesn't sit right with them. Not every person needs or wants their dog to be totally submissive and detatched.

I understand your point about good obedience, but this trainer sounds SOOO over the top and overwhelming for you and your dog. You can have EXCELLENT obedience without (figuratively) beating your dog over the head with it.

There is no reason to go so ultra hard core with a dog that didn't have issues in the first place. Once you pass this test tomorrow I would personally ditch this trainer. If you work on OB for 10 minutes a day every day you should be ok.

Your dog doesn't seem to need the stay off the furniture stuff, but you can regulate it. Ruby and Connor are allowed up only after they sit and wait to be invited up. they get off the minute we say off iwth no fussing or grumbling. That is plenty of 'We are in charge' and all they need.

The eating stuff makes no sense at all to me, unless you eat in the same place in your house every meal and don't vary the times you eat. Feeding a dog on a schedule helps the dog keep a schedule. I know Ruby's potty schedule almost exactly when she is fed regularly. When the times get varied so does her potty schedule. With your other health problems you may find her being on a good routine is better and easier for you.

I understand your leave the dog outside issues, but I am very uncomfortable with them. Please make sure you have a very very very secure muzzle for her so that no one can mess with her.

As for the guy who was being a jerk to that dog, that woman should have called 911 and animal control the minute it started. And I would sue him for every penny he is worth.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

Our trainer trains very humanely. There is no yelling or hitting or anything to frighten your dog. We started with the reward system and slowly weaning it down to several commands before the treats. With everything they do good, we say 'good sit', 'good stay', etc. Another words, we praise their good efforts, some of which we used to take fogranted, but he has reinforced in us they deserve that praise.
He has taught us to only use a command once. If we say 'sit' and the dog doesn't sit, we gently push on the behind to remind them, but they don't get the 'good sit', nor the treat.
I've seen such an unbelieveable improvement in Shasta as so have the other students. I've NEVER been able to walk her without a Gentle Leader or Halti before and now it's only leash to collar with no pulling. Because of my disabilities, I anticipated this was going to be a painful event as a small tug could feel to me like my arms are being pulled off. It's a real treat for me not to have to put all that extra head gear on, except for her muzzle.
Yes, she has one of the best muzzles you can get. It's a full wire cage that not only straps around her neck, but an extra leather strap that comes up from the muzzle between her eyes and down to the back of the neck strap.
Matter of fact, AC saw the picture I had of her with it on and asked if they could keep the picture to show owners the proper type of muzzle for their dogs. It's humane, comfortable and secure. She can eat (small snacks), drink, pant and even yawn, but she can't get it off herself.
As far as our trainer, he has told us it is our choice to follow his suggestions or not. I do allow her on the couch, but only when I allow her now. She needs to be invited rather than before where she was allowed the full run of the house. I have even invited her on my bed to cuddle for an hour prior to me getting up, but it's invite only.
I bought her a crate (cage) and bought a nice thick dog bed cushion and doggy blankets and she LOVES it. I NEVER use it as punishment and actually, I can't remember when I had to punish her at all for the longest time.
If she doesn't pay attention, I make a funny noise (don't know how to put into a word as it's a sound) and she straightens up and pays attention.
My only concern was step 11 in the CGN course as she never had to stay alone with a man before and did a full 3 minutes of excessive whining and calling MOM! Naturally I paniced (one of my conditions) and thought for sure we would fail miserabley because of this one lesson and only with a week to correct somehow.
I don't have the funds or the opportunity to do the test over, so that was another panic.
Only two days ago in Toronto was another incident where a woman was walking her bullie, leashed and muzzled when they came across a man walking his little zhits-soo (sp?), the dog yanked so hard at the leash to lunge at this poor little dog that it broke away from the owner and in a frenzy somehow got his muzzle off and killed the dog. It was a plastic full cage, but without the extra security strap. I've seen dogs scrape the muzzles on the ground in order to pull them off themselves. That's why the security strap is so important.
It's pending whether the owner will be charged as she did properly have the dog leashed and muzzled, but the fate of the dog is the same as with every sad story we read about in the papers. It's put down.
I believe had that owner have taken training, she wouldn't have had that problem of her dog over powering her.
It's reason like this that we are being taught along with the CGN, preventative measures because Ontario is not a safe place to live if you are a Pit bull. Pit bulls are never given the benefit of the doubt. The law is so vague that now we even have to muzzle our dogs in vehicles. I phoned HS and they didn't know, so I called AC that said it wasn't specified in the act that it was allowed and therefore against the law. I called our local police department and was told 'not that they ever heard of but would check.' The officer came back to me and said, 'No, it's not against the law.'
Here's where the situation gets tricky, say you were involved in an accident and they needed to get you out, naturally your dog would get out too and THAT IS AGAINST THE LAW as it isn't muzzled or leashed and AC would then have the police press charges and your dog is put down, along with you may be facing fines up to $10,000. and/or up to 6 months in jail.
If the dog is any other breed besides a Pit bull, it would be forced to wear a muzzle, but for the Pitties, it's death.
So if our trainer is teaching us some over the top things, it's because we want our dogs alive and be prepared for anything that may or may not occur.
Maybe you have to live in a banned area to understand the full extent of how all this has changed our lives. You can't even bring your dogs into Ontario to visit or they would be taken from you. There are special circumstances (such as registered dog shows and flyball tournaments) that with the proper forms you would be allowed.
If you had never registered your dog prior to the ban in flyball, you can not do so now. You are not allowed to socilize your dog properly anymore unless you can get together in a private backyard with the owners consent and let them play together unleashed and unmuzzled providing it is surrounded by a 6 foot high fence.
That is reality in Ontario folks. The law has us and our dogs on a very short leash with barely any rights and the laws are so vague I'm sure they make them up as they go along.
So, is off the top training necessary? In Ontario, DEFINITELY!
As far as why the woman didn't call the authorities, I can't speak for her, but if I was her, I definitely would have. We can not under any circumstances, take chances where are dogs lives could be at risk and I will do anything in my power to learn how to prevent any situation no matter how stressful it can be, because I would be very distraught if it happened to Shasta and I didn't know how to handle it. She's my life!

Hey Connie, its Lisa (Angels mom). Shasta is doing GREAT! Don't worry about the test, we are going to pass with flying colors, and Bryant is gonna feel like an arse when we all send him our certificates!!!

GreddyGirl wrote:Hey Connie, its Lisa (Angels mom). Shasta is doing GREAT! Don't worry about the test, we are going to pass with flying colors, and Bryant is gonna feel like an arse when we all send him our certificates!!!

We ARE going to pass aren't we Lady!!! I knew you get just as nervous as me and we just need to calm ourselves so Angel and Shasta don't feel it.
I'm talking Shasta out to practice with a MAN tonight. If she does well with him, I won't have a worry in the world!
I love the idea of urking Bryant. How DARE he ban our dogs!!! We'll show him what our bullies are made of!!!