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dsmalle writes "Apple has adapted its warranty to cover 2 years, under pressure of the European Union and after European consumer organizations sued Apple. From the article: 'The warranty conditions have been changed and these changes can be found on the website of Apple. Products that are purchased on the website of the manufacturer or in stores are now under warranty for two years, as it is required by the EU warranty guidelines. However, the warranty for Apple products that have been purchased elsewhere will not change and they will only be given a limited one-year warranty.'"

This is really amusing to me, that the EU has laws that mandate minimum warranty policies for devices sold.

Some of the only comparable laws I can think of in the US have to do with automobile emissions systems. If your car starts spewing too much pollution before 90,000 miles, the manufacturer is on the hook regardless of what warranty they sold with the car.

So I guess this raises the question of why Europeans bought Apple products despite those products breaking the law? Did they have faith in that their government would enforce the law, or did they simply not care that the law was being broken?

Well clearly they just didn't know. Since all the electronics they buy have 2 years warranty (by law) it isn't like they are going to go check that. They wouldn't find out until the thing broke and they needed warranty service. The fact that this even became a big enough deal to make it to the EU legal system means that many Apple products DID fail in less than 2 years (whether it was just battery not holding a charge or something worse) and enough people complained to bring it to the EUs attention.

The summary and story is somewhat misleading. Under EU law, Apple has supported 2 years but it wasn't clear to a consumer in the EU. The warranty policy on Apple website listed 1 year.**
**Local warranty laws apply. Your country may support a longer warranty.

Worse yet, they were selling extended warranties which adds more years but not clearly stating that consumers already got 2 years. There wasn't consensus about the length from some anecdotal testimony so Apple may have to review this with all of their employees. This stems from the earlier Italian ruling. Italy did not rule that Apple was breaking laws by not offering a 2yr warranty but rather it was somewhat confusing to the customer and that an asterisk on the warranty agreement wasn't good enough. Needlessly upselling also was noted.

In the EU, you can't change the laws by writing terms on your website, or providing some arbitrary "agreement" with the product. All it takes is for someone to challenge it, and Apple will get a slap on the wrist and get told that the law applies.

And now that someone did challenge this 1 year warranty "agreement", Apple has got their slap on the wrist and changed their heinous ways.

IF Apple had REALLY refused to honor the 2 year minimum warranty (devices are supposed to work for their expected life) then IF the customer knew his rights, he would simply have demanded his rights and Apple would have lost the case on every level.

The PSP had a very bad screen and Sony tried to make claims that cheap devices could have a number of defective sub-pixels. In Holland, the consumer program Kassa ("Cash register but also what we say when Americans say "Caching") arranged that Sony had to replace

> Apple can try what it wants but if anyone makes a simple complaint, Apple is going to lose. Even this new thing is meaningless. In Europe, you got two years warranty at least. Take Apple to court, you will win since the law leaves no room for interpretation.

Some people prefer not having to take a seller to court in order to have the law honored. Most people do not have the time nor the inclination to bring a random seller to court. So this matters because it settles the record straight for all consumer

well, apple is still liable to the extend the law requires(well, the retailer is, but apple was acting as the retailer in this).

bigger shit is stuff like installing them with moisture sensors that are trigged before the device is sold to consumer, selling devices that they claim are meant to not work under 0c and so forth(though I think about that there's some consumer protection decision that if it's a fucking mobile PHONE there's the assumption that you can use it outdoors during winter too).

That doesn't stop us non-Apple users from bringing suit against Apple for violations of the law. It's still a crime against ALL consumers, and since I didn't sign away shit, I am quite free to sue on the side of the people.

In Europe you cant waive basic rights. if your country law say you can do lawsuits, no matter what the ToS try to sell you, isnt valid. This warranty case is just that, the ToS says something that isnt valid as the above law already gave you that rights

You know, I've lived in both the UK and US, and I've immersed myself in both cultures, and I still don't understand why Americans on Slashdot (only on Slashdot) appear to think it's a big deal that the EU has laws like this.

This is standard consumer protection stuff. Does the US have a directly equivalent law? No idea, but it doesn't lack laws that are in the same ballpark. Indeed, some, such as the requirement that all electronics be vetted by the FCC and contain shielding to prevent their circuits from accidentally broadcasting something that might cause a little interference on a TV or radio in the same room, seem a tad less understandable than creating a basic standard of merchantability - you have to stand behind your product for two years. Hardly unreasonable.

This is standard consumer protection stuff. Does the US have a directly equivalent law? No idea, but it doesn't lack laws that are in the same ballpark. Indeed, some, such as the requirement that all electronics be vetted by the FCC and contain shielding to prevent their circuits from accidentally broadcasting something that might cause a little interference on a TV or radio in the same room, seem a tad less understandable than creating a basic standard of merchantability - you have to stand behind your product for two years. Hardly unreasonable.

What gives?

Errr, Europe has the same non-interference/resistance to interference laws that the US have.

The Raspberry Pi was bitten by the european equivalent just last week. It lacked the CE mark it requires for devices that can emit em radiation or be affected by it. I'm actually wondering if the Pi will run afoul of the FCC regs next.

For many other sates, but at least for california, those no sue clauses are unenforceable and void precisely because they are not legal.

Nope. The supreme court ruled last year in AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion that the Federal Arbitration Act preempts any state laws to that effect and thus they can force you into their choice of arbitration providers.

In other words, you still have a choice because you can buy yourself a farm in Amish country. That's about what it will take to completely avoid dealing with corporations that engage in the kind of rights-stripping nonsense we're talking about here.

The Apple i-device users are famous for buying another every year, so who benefits by a two year guarantee for a one year product, its like demanding a 10 year guarantee for a gallon of milk from the grocery store...

Some people change cars every four years. That means we don't need to make cars that last any longer.

See how half-assed that logic is?

Even if you do buy a new iDevice every year, why should the old one stop working?

Apple's "AppleCare+" warranty extension is actually pretty good. It even covers user idiocy. I dropped the hundred bucks on it, and they happily replaced the phone I dropped into a foot of water. Shockingly the thing actually worked for a day afterward, I should have done a better job of drying it. I think a corrosion short killed it, not an actual water short.

I find this aspect of Apple pretty hilarious actually. For a brand that is supposed to be "superior quality", they sure don't stand behind it. If they were worthy of the propaganda, this would not be an issue at all. 4 year warranties would be standard.

Some states, as you can guess, are hyper-regulated centrally controlled markets and are poor, and some are pretty much free-market and are relatively richer.

Erk? Really? I've live in Alabama (very free market, very poor), Louisiana (mostly free market, pretty poor), Florida (middle of road free market, fairly rich), and Massachusetts (pretty regulated, pretty rich). I don't think the correlation you're trying to make exists. I'm not saying that more regulation necessarily leads to a richer state, but certainly the opposite is not true either. Texas and Florida do pretty well with very free markets, Mass, California, and NY all do pretty well with very regul

Is it possible to downgrade your warranty in the EU? I think the 2 year mandatory warranty is only useful to make companies with less than stellar brand recognition invest in the quality of their products. For well-established companies, their image is too important to not strive for high quality.

In general, I agree - but I've always either regretted not buying AppleCare or been glad to have it. I don't find Apple's products to be any shoddier or less reliable than other electronics in the same price range, but even if they were the AppleCare service has always been fantastic for me.

But selling a redundant warranty is slimy as hell. That's like Best Buy crap.

For most products I would agree with you, but after three in-home repairs my TV was declared a lemon and replaced with a newer model free of charge. If I had not purchased that warranty I would be starring at a $2000 pile of junk.

But that's not how they market AppleCare. [apple.com] They primarily market it as an extended warranty and extended support. Even the revised ad I linked to is slimy, with it still saying 1 year but then having a footnote.

I generally really like Apple, but these last two marketing stories have me a bit miffed. First it was the misleading 4G service with the iPad and now it is this warranty business. My only consolation is that I don't live in the EU, where all this misleading stuff is happening... so sure, Apple market

Apple employs more than enough lawyers to help them determine whether offering their products for sale in a particular market would produce a fair result or not, so yes, the EU should force Apple to provide whatever it requires other manufacturers to provide to their customers.

Apple employs more than enough lawyers to help them determine whether offering their products for sale in a particular market would produce a fair result or not, so yes, the EU should force Apple to provide whatever it requires other manufacturers to provide to their customers.

Which is exactly zero. The EU doesn't force manufacturers to give any warranty at all. So Apple's ONE year warranty (read that, you idiot submitter? ONE year, not two!) is completely voluntarily (of course once you buy the product that warranty is part of the deal).

The EU does however the seller of a product to fix problems under certain conditions. So if you buy an iMac at PC World, the EU gives you rights against PC World, not against Apple. If you buy a Canon printer at an Apple Store, the EU gives yo

The EU is not forcing to offer Applecare for free. It is forcing Apple to indicate clearly that Apple products sold in the EU are under the 2-year statuary warranty (for defects present in the product before delivery) mandated by law.

Yes, but it is up to Apple to prove that the products were abused, with problems from normal use being something their products should not have. Deliberately jumping up and down on you iPhone counts as voiding the statutory warranty, but simply calling people normally does not. (Yes, there is space in there for court decisions, but the courts are mostly pretty reasonable in this area.)

Which isn't to say that they've got to fix the device on the spot, or offer a temporary replacement while the device is bein

Some years back I read that manufactures tend to ship their best runs to the eu because of our warranty requirement. I can't think of a single electronic gizmo I've bought the last 10 years that didn't make it way beyond the 2 years.

.... Just silly... Apple wasn't "forced by EU", was forced by the EU directives that were transposed to law in all EU countries. The headline should be: "Apple forced to abide the law in EU countries".... since it wasn't until now. It's not something that just happened to "fall" on our laps here in EU countries just now... it's decade and an half old law.

What's the point of a warranty that lasts two years which covers defects that were present on delivery?

"Defects present on delivery" IS what the law requires. However, the intended interpretation of this is that a product is defect if it cannot sustain two years of regular wear and tear without breaking. As such, bad soldering causing your screen to stop functioning after 19 months is considered a defect present at moment of purchase.

And honestly, if there is a defect from the manufacturer, they could give you a lifetime warranty and it wont make a difference, it will be found in the first 30 days 99% of the time, after that, it probably isn't a manufacturer defect. These aren't cars. There are no 'moving parts' outside of a few fans and a hard drive.

Several generations of white Macbooks released in 2006-2007 were prone to cracks in the casing, definitely a design/manufacturing defect. Apple would attempt repairs even outside the standard 1-year (in the US) warranty. It was even possible, after several repair attempts, that they replace it with the latest-generation Macbook [cultofmac.com].

I myself got a free Macbook battery replacement 4 years after purchase. Granted it was bulging (a rarer but also-known defect) and they probably exchanged it free for safety/liabilit

There is a reasonable expectation that a hard drive will last longer than 18 months, when used according to its spec (eg the temperature is kept within the specified limits, and the device is not subjected to shocks exceeding those stated on the spec sheet, and not subjected to water etc)...

Indeed it is not uncommon for hard drives to last for years, even when subjected to harsh conditions. I had some scsi drives that ran for over 10 years in a server that was badly overheating, and still worked when they w

That *is* what the law requires. A warranty is to cover defects of workmanship or materials of the product as shipped. That means that if the product goes wrong within the warranty period, and it hasn't been mistreated or suffered accidental damage then it's deemed to have not been of sufficient quality when manufactured and repaired or replaced.

Extended warranties sometimes go beyond that, such as Apple's own 1st year warranty or Applecare extended warranty. But they are not required by law.

Apple was forced by EU to be more forthcoming about warranty policies.

Apple provided warranty, as a MANUFACTURER, is limited to 1 year and Apple pushed it warranty extension for 2 to 3 years (2 years for iOS devices, 3 years for Macs). It covers a range of issues that can appear after the sell.

EU wasn't really happy with this because EU law mandates a 2 years warranty by the SELLER, for issue existing before the sell. EU thought that Apple was forcing clients to get a warranty extension even if they were entitled to a 2 year coverage (similar but not exactly identical).

Now Apple clearly states this distinction.

So if you bought your Apple product in another shop, after 1 year, you need to get in contact with that shop, that will contact Apple to identify the issue and see if this is linked to a preexisting problem or link to your usage. In the later case, your "seller provided" warranty won't help you.

Having a 1 year warranty on a phone made sense back when mobile contracts typically lasted 1 year...But now that mobile contracts are typically 2 years, it should be a legal requirement that any warranty last for at least as long as the contract terms if not longer.

Apple's warranty continues to stand at 1 year. If anything short of intentional damage happens in that one year, you get full Apple tech support.

EU Consumer Law meanwhile covers a 2 year period, and as the weaker program takes effect during the second year of ownership. Pay attention here, this is important: if the buyer can prove the product was defective when it was sold, then and only then can they take the product to the seller (who is not necessarily Apple) for coverage. This is not the same as a 2 year warranty as you do not get any direct support from Apple - no phone support, no Apple Store, no authorized service providers; you get what the seller can provide, unless that seller is Apple. And even then Apple will not give the buyer the same treatment as a full warranty, and the burden of proof is on the buyer to prove that the product was defective at the time of sale.

For a real warranty over 1 year you still need to purchase an AppleCare plan. That gets you full and direct Apple support, and more importantly there is no burden of proof on the buyer to prove that the product was defective at the time of sale.

For a real warranty over 1 year you still need to purchase an AppleCare plan. That gets you full and direct Apple support, and more importantly there is no burden of proof on the buyer to prove that the product was defective at the time of sale.

The burden of proof is on the seller for the first 6 months, and on the buyer afterwards. Still "burden of proof" doesn't mean it's required to provide evidence of a production defect. Most judges will take the absence of evidence of abuse on the device as proof enough that the issue is due to a production defect. After all either it's not working correctly due to a production defect, or is not working correctly due to damage and damage is easy to demonstrate.

everything i buy here in europe here has this two-year seller's warranty. and always had. apple didn't sell things with one year warranty because they couldn't do it - even if it was stated otherwise on their warranty card - it was alway protected under the two year seller's warranty.
and this warranty has always been different from the manufacturers warranty.

Since there seems to be much confusion, I'd like to add a few points to this article. There are two notions of warranty in Europe.

1.) A mandatory warranty that all _sellers_ of goods have to give by law, which is valid for two years. This covers only problems that existed prior to the purchase. So for example, if some part breaks simple to being worn out, the _seller_ has no obligation to cover it. If a problem occurs within the first six month after purchase, it is assumed by law that the problem existed prior to the purchase. The burden of proof that the problem did not exist prior to the purchase is up to the _seller_. In practice, such proof is difficult, and thus _seller_ will usually handle the problem. After six month up to two years, the burden of proof is up to the buyer. Since again, this is almost impossible to do without an expensive expertise, this effectively limits this warranty up to six month. Note that this is an issue between the _seller_ and the _buyer_, even though if a defect occurs and the seller is not the manufacturer, say the seller is amazon, the seller when faced with a defective product will claim the same warranty to the manufacturer. Some might have other agreements with the manufacturer.

2.) Almost all manufacturers give on top a voluntary warranty to the customer of two years. This warranty is completely voluntary, and the customer has no real legal means to enforce it.

What happened here is that Apple is one of the very few manufacturers who only give voluntary warranty of one year. They (essentially the apple store) tried to sell additional warranties for up to three years (Apple Care), but without making it clear, that the buyer can anyway claim warranty against the seller of goods for up to two years (even though, this is hardly enforceable after six month, unless it is a problem so widespread that it would, say, lead to a class-action lawsuit in the US). The judges asked Apple to make this more explicit. Instead, Apple finally went ahead and introduced voluntary warranty conditions that are similar to any other manufacturer in Europe.

Not only an idiot, but a bloody f***ing stupid idiot of the highest magnitude.

Apple hasn't given in to any pressure, and Apple hasn't made any changes whatsoever. What Apple has done is presenting on a website what rights Apple customers have towards the seller of a product (whoever is the seller, and whoever makes the product), what rights Apple as the manufacturer voluntarily gives to buyers of Apple products (One year. ONE year. Not TWO years you bloody idiot submitter), and what rights Apple gives yo

i am not saying they made a bad product, but they charge way too much for their products, i dont buy electronics to make a fashion statement, i buy an electronic product because it has a functionality that suits a purpose, and i find better value in alternatives to apple's products

"Apple made to comply with existing laws that are quite reasonable, everyone else complies with and which aid the consumer."

So I don't really see what the fuss is about. If you're building expensive devices and putting them into people's hands, expecting them to last two years isn't a hardship, unless your business is BUILT upon their obsolescence. In which case, this is a win for the consumer is stopping you doing things like that.

"Apple FORCED to make devices that last more than a year on average". Gosh. The horror.

And every other electronics manufacturer trading in the EU has to do the same and has done for a while now. Hell, I can get CARS with a five year warranty, and there's no end of things that could go wrong on them and it costs the manufacturer 10 times as much if they do go wrong or they have a design flaw.

"Apple THREATENED WITH LAWSUIT if they don't give consumers a good deal"

All Apple has done is clarify consumer's rights wrt to defects that exist at time of purchase. Apple is not saying they'll fix any problems that arise as they would with Applecare, they're saying if a defect is present when you buy an item that the seller is responsible for fixing it. Unlike Apple's warranty, you don't get worldwide coverage no matter where you bought it, nor is Apple obligated to fix it if you take it to an Apple store but bought it elsewhere.

Warranties on *all* electrical goods in Europe are two years by law. Apple isn't being singled out here.

Here in Spain (YMMV): After a short "DOA" period from the day you bought it (maybe a couple of weeks), pretty much all warranties are dealt with directly by the manufacturer. When things go wrong you call the number on the warranty card in the box.

The last couple of things that failed on me (Samsung monitor, Benq DVD burner) I called them and they sent a guy right to my door with a replacement.

This isn't the first time I hear that claim on/. but I don't think it's true. The consumer agency in my country [kuluttajavirasto.fi] states the following on their website:

Service life

Consumers have the right to expect that an appliance will last in normal use for its realistic service life. It is possible that during the service life the appliance will require maintenance and even repairs for which the consumer is liable to pay. However, the seller has considerable liability during the early part of the service life and in t

It is a retailer warranty. It only applies as Apple sells something directly to consumers.In other cases, other retailers have to get Apple to fix the stuff, but Apple isn't directly liable.

No, it's a manufacturer warranty, but generally handled by the retailer, who acts as a go-between for the customer and manufacturer.I.e. if your iGizmo breaks down, you take it to the retailer, who sends it to Apple, who fixes it under warranty. This is in the interest of the consumer, who has a single point of contact. The manufacturer (or, rather, brand name holder) is still the liable part.

This in contrast to US conditions, where the customer usually has to contact the manufacturer directly.

In addition to the mandatory warranty, the purchaser also has reclamation rights not limited to a fixed term, but the reasonably expected lifetime of a product. For consumer electronics, this is generally interpreted to be in the ballpark of the warranty or shorter, but if you buy, say, house siding that cracks after ten years, or a water heater that that breaks down after four years, you probably have a good case for getting it fixed by the manufacturer.A big difference between that and regular warranty is that for regular warranty, the manufacturer is liable by default and has to show that the customer misused the product to get out of it, while for the reclamation rights, the customer has the burden of evidence.Still, it is useful, and while I lived in Europe, I exercised this right a couple of times (broken washer/dryer, guitar neck that warped).

No, it's a manufacturer warranty, but generally handled by the retailer, who acts as a go-between for the customer and manufacturer.

Not really. I as the consumer enter a contract with the retailer. I pay them money and they provide me with a product, they are responsible for delivering a decent product and therefore have to give a warranty. Where they got the product from and how they provide the warranty is none of my concern, I didn't enter a contract with the manufacturer, as far as I know they don't exist.

Actually you both are right, to a certain degree. You have a contractual relationship with the retailer, the retailer is obliged to give you a warranty. But then the retailer is in a contractual relationship with the manufacturer (sometimes by multiple levels of indirection) and part of the deal is that they service this warranty. But that is up to the retailer and the manufacturer to agree upon. They can, for example agree to lower the price and drop the repair service; they often do that on small things,

i think you just proved his point 100%. the retailer acts as a go-between. the manufacturer doesn't exist TO YOU. but they do exist. and they are the one that provides the warranty

While they may well be involved in the implementation of the service that makes the warranty work, the retailer provides the warranty (except in the UK if you've paid by credit card, in which case it is the credit card company that does it formally). It's their responsibility in law to get things fixed for you, and that can't be passed on to anyone else. Of course, the retailer may well just pass the faulty item along to the maker for fixing, but if the maker stalls them or messes about then it's the retailer who has to make you good. They sometimes need reminding of this, but it rarely reaches court these days as the laws in the area are very strict and have to be to avoid trouble from slimy retailers and manufacturers; this area is very well tested in other areas of consumer products, and electronics firms are by-and-large relatively honest. (That's a reflection on how bad some other market sectors have been in the past, really.)

>In other cases, other retailers have to get Apple to fix the stuff, but Apple isn't directly liable.

Apple still have to give that EU retailer the same 2 years warranty, that law isnt just for the final consumer, its for every electric appliance sold as new. (used equipment have different warranty times)

retailer has everything to do with being responsible to the consumers they retail to. some chains in eu are trying to sell'n'dump-responsibilities but it's not really legit over here(one example is that doesn't matter what smartphone you buy in finland, there's 90% possibility that all warranty issues are handled by one company... it sucks, as the consumer shouldn't have to send his device to a 3rd party company to have it fixed when the retailer is actually responsible for the product they sold).

please ignore my post. I misread the article and thought that apple would only offer the 2 year warranty when bought directrly from the apple website or apple stores. I read "elsewhere" as non-apple stores in the EU

To be fair, with electronics (particularly those with no moving parts), if it doesn't fail within six months of normal use it's much less likely to be a manufacturer defect. It's one of the primary ideas behind giving computers a "burn-in" period before going into production. From personal experience, failures after the first few months are at least partially due to user error - particularly with mobile devices. Not saying it's always the case, just a healthy majority of them.

The more expensive Apple products become, the fewer people who can afford them will be. This isn't price fixing, it's enabling consumers to compare Apples to Apples and oranges to oranges. And, by the way, a warranty is a warranty and a price is a price. Apples and oranges.

Only if you're the sort of idiot that thinks you should throw something away because something new has come out, or thinks that they shouldn't resell devices they aren't using (resale value depends on the quality of the initial build, don't forget) or, worse, thinks that 1 year is a long time for a commercial product costing more than my car to last.

The "annual upgrade cycle" is the realm of the idiot. It means that no device you buy has EVER had more than a year or so of testing, or expected to last more

Much higher prices...Goods that last are not compatible with modern capitalism, once everyone who's going to buy a product has bought one, it will never break resulting in no further sales and the vendor going bankrupt.

If you force vendors to produce reliable products, then they will find some other method to force you to keep paying them, wether its forced obsolescence (ie the product still works, but is no longer compatible with anything else) or a rental model where you never own the product and just hav

For most hand tools a lifetime warranty is pretty easy because if the tools are used as intended it is almost impossible to break them. If you only use a screw driver as intended, you can't break it. If you use it as a pry bar, a chisel, etc. Then you can break it but no warranty. Look at a steel combo wrench and figure out how to break that turning a nut by hand.

What makes high end tools more valuable is not that they will last longer, but that they are manufactured to tighter tolerances.

My experience with hand tools is that they will get stolen or lost LONG before they will break. The lifetime warranty is great (in theory), but when somebody walks off with your wrench you still have to go out and buy a new one. There will always be a business for high quality hand tools.

Sounds like they attempted to defraud you...They should have immediately offered to fix it for free, not try to trick you into buying an extended warranty that you didn't need. Even if they tried to send you an extended warranty, they should not have claimed that this was required in order for them to repair the current defect.