-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

Rather off-topic : An interesting snippet from the commentaries there :

Einherjar_LC writes:

Originally posted by meesha035

Originally posted by knapu

Im just disapointed in the beta testers wtf did they do i would like to know ,pvp sucks unbalanced abd totally usless graphic bugs , skill lags etz i mean wtf .. this game could be rly good perhaps it will in future but by then noone will play it .

Same story as with most of other new mmos that came out latley

Unfortunately, 99% of 'beta testers' don't test / report anything. They're in it to get a head start when the game releases or to just play the game for free for a while.

Actually just saw these two posts and had to reply.

I beta tested SWTOR. Please don't be disappointed in us.

We reported bugs, numerous suggestions were made to improve gameplay and it was all ignored by Bioware/EA.

Once they announced the Dec 20 launch date, their only focus was to get the game in a functional enough condition to launch.

And I think that this comment adresses the "early MMOs vs. nowadays MMOs" thing best :

Valkaern writes:

Originally posted by tshack88

Would you rather take a long ass train ride through the desert, where you might see 1 or 2 amazing sights?

Or would you rather take a ride half that distance, but through a place where you see something that floors you at least twice as much?

The content they make in today's game is quality, not just bullshit filler like in the old days. If you really prefer the original EQ questing to a game like SWTOR you're batshit insane, I'm sorry.

And I also guaranfuckingtee you will not be writing an article about this when GW2 comes out even if you level at the exact same rate as today's game. Why? Because it's f2p.

I think the point you may be missing is that for many people there was no long train ride through a desert, everything you did was part of an ongoing experience; good, bad, frustrating, satisfying, fun, funny or fantastic. There was actually a wide range of experiences to be had, a broad spectrum rather than the one dimensional, shallow experience of easy win, fast to level, zero risk linear themeparks.

Travelling through Nektulos forest at night for example, wasn't just runnning with zero risk to the next bland and generic quest hub, it could go any number of ways and that's why you'd find people at zone in waiting to make the run with others for safety. It was actually a lot of fun. And that's not even including any of the GM run events, which actually used to be a real thing.

I know it's hard to imagine in the safety net linear path MMO emulator world of today (WoW and it's plethora of clones) but these zones were large, very dark, very dangerous and you had something at risk.

That right there alone has more of the makings of an adventure than sending me out to safely click something giant and glowing 20 feet from the menial task distrubtor in quest hub #32, and in those cases, something that actually caused the community to interact in a positive way (you know, in a way other than coming up with 'clever' remarks involving Chuck Norris, insults or jumping on the chest someone else is clearly fighting towards).

You mention EQ questing, the irony is EQ was very, very light on guided content. However the quests they *did* have generally involved some reliance on brain power, effort, usually friends, and in the cases of epic weapons over the years, working with many other members of the community to solve quests over a period of months - *that* was something worth doing, that was an accomplishment to be proud of.

That's another irony, those were more true to the term 'quest' than these ridiculous five minute chores involving clicking 10 cows justified by some low brow pop culture reference that some call content.

The level of commitment & communal interaction required to see anything worth doing through to completion was something I certainly appreciated. There was actually room to set yourself apart as well - not everyone was wearing the exact same bland gear from the exact same raid token merchants (yawn). The worlds were large and varied, as were the rewards.

And for the record, nothing in any WoW clone themepark has ever 'floored' me, it all felt like they'd taken previous games, had a pre-school teacher child proof everything and remove all the sharp edges leaving no basis for comparison. Everything was just fast and easy and after a time, tedious as there were no peaks and troughs, no variance in experiences to establish reference.

It's unfortunate that it sounds preachy to you, but you'll just have to accept the fact that clearly not everyone's in as much of a rush as you are to get on with it and be done with it.

As for Guild Wars 2, it doesn't sound like they're relying on the WoW/Swtor quest hub grind as the primary means of content delivery, so I'm sure (or at least hope) they'll have a rate of advancement suitable for their world and its events. Even if it does end up being another shallow and bland fast paced sprint to max level, at least they're trying something different. I'm pleased about that, whether the game ends up appealing to me or not, it's very satisfying to see people in the industry finally saying 'You know what? This whole linear quest hub grind thing is really getting old, let's try something different'.

And it's about time.
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1/27/12 9:52:44 PM

ONe rather satirical comment :

bossalinie writes:

It's like…they want a AAA old school game, but don't want the crowd that comes with the AAA label.
New Post Quote
1/28/12 3:54:32 AM

-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

The author seems to think that leveling in SWTOR goes too quickly compared to other games, which is not really an experience that I've had. I'm not sure that it's really any faster then vanilla WOW was.

The author also seems to think that it's a bad thing that it's inefficient to do every single quest in the game as you level up. I disagree here as well. By having some quests that you don't do, it adds greatly to the replay factor.

Overall though I can understand that he likes the level up phase of the game and wishes it would last longer.

What I find most interesting, imho, is this little snippet from below :

SWTOR was designed to be fast leveling ON PURPOSE. Leveling was made fast to get Players to the content that Bioware believes is MOST important… lvl 50 PvP (#1) and Raiding (#2).

rojo6934 writes:

Originally posted by Gardavsshade

Originally posted by rojo6934

great read!!

I really wish that somebody from BW/EA read this article and learn something…. By letting us reach level cap in a week or less they are indeed screwing all the lvl 1-49 content they worked so hard to provide us and spent so many millions of dollars on it. It is a total waste of content.

I think if they give us a slower level progression we all benefit from it. We get to enjoy the whole storyline / all quests / content at a parallel level as the areas we are in while the devs have even more time to work on new content for future updates. End game rushers are less than the rest of the playerbase so i have no idea why the devs (in general) cater more to those guys instead of the ones that provide theme more profit…. since thats what they are all after.

I have been playing SWTOR and what has become very obvious to me is this:

SWTOR was designed to be fast leveling ON PURPOSE. Leveling was made fast to get Players to the content that Bioware believes is MOST important… lvl 50 PvP (#1) and Raiding (#2).

The voice acting and the grand storyline missions are just to help make the trip to level 50 much more entertaining as far as I can tell.

It also seems to me that Bioware thinks that the PvE world exists only for the sake of the story and the missions. I honestly don't think they ever considered that some of us would actually want to spend most of our time in the PvE world itself (e.g. areas of exhaustion in the middle of world maps where there is no geographic roadblocks).

Indeed, and in my personal opinion thats their mistake. If they believe lvl 50 pvp and raiding is the most important aspect of Swtor then they should have spent more millions in that aspect instead of the journey from lvl 1-cap. I love their story and im trying to go as slow as i can (even rolling every class as alts) to get to know all storylines and their way towards lvl cap because im not fond of lvl 50 pvp and raiding every day rinse and repeat after i reach lvl cap.
New Post Quote
1/28/12 9:05:42 AM

Gardavsshade writes:

Originally posted by Digna

With gaming as with all aspects of life (real,lived life) people more and more want NOW and instant gratification. If its easy (generally not necessarily hand me the golden ring) they feel good. If it become a ''grind" as it used to be in the olden days it becomes less likely people will continue to play. NOW. NOW. NOW. Part of this is the new lifestyle, fast, high-speed, on the go busy world. Back in the day only 'geeks' played. Now the average household has a gamer squirreled away somewhere. Even old grannies are doing it…immediate rewards = continuing subscribers, which is the lifeblood of games.

Sometimes though, things can be over done and I think SWToR may be guilty of this. I don't regret my paying sub. I am however disappointed that I paid for multiple months. (I tend to throw $$ at games and get disappointed so another $50 or so wont matter much in the long run but still I wish I hadn't)

I suppose I had hoped SWToR would be the return of that 'cherry high' that I have found lacking in many MMOs over the last few years. I like it but I don't know if it will be the game to hold me (on a daily basis say) for the next year+. Each day I think this is less and less likely.

You just highlighted what I personally think is the number one problem in the MMO Genre right now…

As originally conceived (generally speaking) MMOs were not about NOW, NOW, NOW instat gratification, they were about a "journey and an adventure" and Time itself was an important component of the design equation.

I think of how MMOs were as akin to Odysseus and His Odyssey…. and grand adventure, a thrilling adventure… ALSO quite a few parts of that adventure royally sucked… but that was part of what made the final ending so great. You can't get that kind of an experience in a NOW,NOW instant gratification novel.

We have millions of People trying to take the MMOs and turn them from "Homer's Odyssey" into Pulp Fiction paperbacks. That is the biggest issue that needs fixing of all.
New Post Quote
1/28/12 7:46:29 AM

One'S personal experience with wow :

THEchad88 writes:

I like this article on a multiple of levels. Both on the author (as I've always felt MMO's these days were on a faster curve) and all the posters. Some very insightful responses to this.

I got burned out on WoW during burning crusade when I hit the area after nagrand. I was getting antsy because most of my guild was already at the level cap and I was trying like hell to enjoy each and every quest for what they were. Unfortunately it can be a burden to be reading every single quest. Not to mention my friend who I would group with often would just grab all the quests without actually reading about it. And I was sorta playing catch up.

This is sorta the affect I see coming from fast levelers who quickly grind it out. Others who aren't that level feel left out to a degree because they are lower level and skim over stuff to get xp faster and get to the same content the end gamers are already at. I know I did, or at least tried to while attempting to retain the integrity of my enjoyment of the content. Not only that but I found much content ruined by players who had already done the content and just gave out the answers to people who just had to have it immediately without thought of effort to obtain it themselves.

While slowing leveling down will help slow up people getting to the end content I don't necessarily think it will stop those folks from trying to ramp it up as fast as they can.

I am a believer in enjoying the content i'm playing. Taking my time, enjoying the world that has been created, feeling like i'm living in the world that has been created, and enjoying little details that the so called locusts skim over.

Maybe if an MMO would reward players who take the slow down and enjoy things method there would be more that do. Of course the rewards would have to be quite substantial than just a piece of gear. There is too much reward of simple, money, and items these days in MMO's.

Like how about rewards of the kind that unlock areas you couldn't get to otherwise. Whole towns, entire questlines. These have been done before but largely go by the wayside and i think need a HUGE comeback.

Also there needs to be something said for the value of the content you are playing. Wow always was good about producing content but like in SWTOR the have increased the enjoyment of the content by engaging us as players in the quest we're working on. Both with voice acting and selective responses. Why stop there? What about important boss battles where the music becomes as meaningful to the fight as the fight itself? FFXI dragon fights anyone? Set the mood with the environment / graphics / sound. Pace the leveling and length of time in a zone. Quests should build like the plot of a good movie spiraling upwards to the climax. But make the climax worth it! Make it stand out! Rock our socks off! It's not JUST about level pacing or voice acting. Voice acting done well just hightens the experience a degree. But if you add in the voice acting, music, sound, pacing, gameplay they all add to the experience. And something I hope more games try to incorporate all these things together. It's not an easy feat.

-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

Originally Posted by fadedc
Overall though I can understand that he likes the level up phase of the game and wishes it would last longer.

The article's author name is a female name.
At least here.

-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

Started in beginning of October and dinged 60 around christmas 2005. Our LAN group played it pretty extensively so there wasn't that much idle time either. Never played Everquest so it probably felt fast-paced for those players, but I felt the leveling tempo was optimal to me.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
The article's author name is a female name.
At least here.

In the English language, the word he is generally the default gender neutral pronoun. But looking up the author, your definitely correct that she is female.

Reading the comments I think the author definitely overly glorifies older games like EQ. Yeah it took a long time to level up, but part of that was because it took hours to do anything….you couldn't just log on and play for an hour because it took an hour to reach a place to gain xp, and then another hour to find a party. Also the freeform non quest driven play style that the author talks about was pretty much just sitting in the same corner of the world for 4 hours killing the same monster over and over as soon as it respawned. Plus most of the quests that did exist were still things like "bring back 5 skeleton teeth".

-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

Originally Posted by fadedc
In the English language, the word he is generally the default gender neutral pronoun.

I still stick with : "Isabelle" is a female name. At least here.

-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

Originally Posted by azarhal
but they wouldn't be able to stomach them now if they were released.

[snip]

if people love this type of game so much why don't they have more players? (less than 100k each)

Simple answer : Because "modern" gamer generations can't stomach this kind of gameplay. "Instant gratification" is King nowadays. Some commentaries even call ADHS to be the problem.

Modern games are done so hat gamers get gratifications as soon as possible. No hard labour work anymore, and I fear if they transport this into real life … Then the Crime will flourish ! - Because - what's the fastest way to earn money ? Crime !

Hard, long labour work is something for whussies !

-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

I've never even considered playing games like EQ and UO, simply because I prefer developer created content to "social content" - the community was everything in older MMOs, the game itself actually had no real content if you wanted to play for an hour or two on your own.

When I level alts in WoW or TOR, I do it the same way I would a single player game, but while chatting and teaming up with friends. I wouldn't even bother if it didn't have a single player-ish story to go along with it.

A big part of the reason why people have fond memories for the older games is because of the heavier social element. In EQ you literally sat around for 4 hours killing the same monster over and over. There virtually no story or adventuring or quests or clearing of dungeons. Just just sitting in one place for 4 hours, out of which aproximately 3 and a half hours were spent just waiting for the respawn. Because there was absolutely nothing else to do during this time, many people developed friendships, formed bonds, and roleplayed their own stories. They understandably have very fond memories of these times.

In more modern MMOS there is actually a game you play that keeps you occupied. You don't just sit around doing nothing for 99% of the time. So people form fewer friendships and spend less time roleplaying elaborate backstories for their characters.

Personally I'd much rather play a game with stuff to do. I think most people are like this. But people have different tastes and some miss the days when there was nothing to do but roleplay and talk to your friends..

Yes as I said, Isabelle is a female name, but that kind of misses the point of my response to you. But it's probably better that we don't get this conversation derailed into a discussion of the rules of the English language.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
I still stick with : "Isabelle" is a female name. At least here.

Originally Posted by fadedc
A big part of the reason why people have fond memories for the older games is because of the heavier social element. In EQ you literally sat around for 4 hours killing the same monster over and over. There virtually no story or adventuring or quests or clearing of dungeons. Just just sitting in one place for 4 hours, out of which aproximately 3 and a half hours were spent just waiting for the respawn. Because there was absolutely nothing else to do during this time, many people developed friendships, formed bonds, and roleplayed their own stories. They understandably have very fond memories of these times.

In more modern MMOS there is actually a game you play that keeps you occupied. You don't just sit around doing nothing for 99% of the time. So people form fewer friendships and spend less time roleplaying elaborate backstories for their characters.

Personally I'd much rather play a game with stuff to do. I think most people are like this. But people have different tastes and some miss the days when there was nothing to do but roleplay and talk to your friends..

This is an *excellent* point. I played EQ and it was horribly monotonous. The reason I have such great memories (besides it being my virgin MMO which also plays into things) is there was nothing to do but chat with others. There was a lot of down time (and travel) in this game. Not to mention the way other players could truly help out.

Corpse runs - I got, and gave, tons of help when it came to corpse retrivial. There was ample oppurtunity to help folks with travel, quests (which were mega obscure sometimes), and just a lot more room for interaction and communication.

Many games now are much faster paced. In fact I have to do 90% of my chatting while just sitting out in a city or maybe doing some crafting. It is very hard to carry on a full conversation (in chat at least - I suppose voice chat is much easier although I am not a big fan of VC) when things happen so much more quickly. There just seems to be less time to get to know people and the whole process is much more utilitarian.

That being said I am also a casual player so I don't have any huge issues with speed. A friend made level 50 in just over a week in SWTOR. My highest level right now is 20 and I have been playing since it came out. In RIFT I had guild mates make max level before the first month was over while it took me 6 months. Course in EQ it took me over a year.

But I tend to agree with the general idea that current MMO's seem to push more getting to "end-game" content … which is a little bizarre considering all the effort they put into the content you experience during your journey there. Not to mention most new MMO's seldom have great end-game content at release.

I am in the minority though. When I reach max level that is when I get bored as I like the journey the most. I don't like raiding or grinding or the gear emphasis. I like to explore, chat, level, do some solo and some easy/casual grouping, and the end-game just doesn't have that feel.

PS - The title is accurate though. In most any new MMO these days many new players (not all of course) are like a swarm of locusts. They rush through content to get to the end-game … and then often complain about it. But is that the fault of the players? The developers? Just a side effect of the current generation?

-- Character is centrality, the impossibility of being displaced or overset. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

SWTOR was designed to be fast leveling ON PURPOSE. Leveling was made fast to get Players to the content that Bioware believes is MOST important… lvl 50 PvP (#1) and Raiding (#2).

Is this true? It completely kills any inkling of desire I had to try the game.

EQ was also my first MMO and, while I realize there is some nostalgia going around, I think it was indeed more social. And more difficult. Nowadays, there is so very little camaraderie felt between group members (if a group is even required… but that is another matter). You join a group and 30 minutes later leave without a hello or goodbye. It's all so sterile.

People are generally so focused on self-gratification, that they dismiss most of everything else. In EQ, yes you camped a spot for hours… but you did so while having fun with others.

Well IF it's true Drithius it indeed doesn't sound like good idea to me as well. PvP and raids might keep a part (even a larger part) of players happy but what about PvEers? That was a problem with Age of Conan too but you had 80 rather than 50 levels.

I have no idea if this is true - but it sounded logical to me, that's why I had quoted it here.

By the way, what does the term "corpse run" actually mean ? I haveN' understood it yet.

And about this social aspect : Several commentators there said that user-generated content helps getting this game become more social, so to say. Several people point out to SWG because of that.

-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

I don't think it's true. It sounds like some random guy on a comments board making baseless speculation. Certainly it's not based on anything official.

In truth almost everything about SWTOR that seperates it from other MMOs is something that happens during the level up proccess. They place a huge amount of emphasis on voice acting and individual class story lines and the vast majority of this occurs before level 50. As a result I'd say all evidence is on the opposite of Bioware trying to speed people along to lvl 50.

Plus it does still take a fairly long time to get to level 50. Most people I know (myself included) who have been playing since the game came out have not gotten there yet. There isn't really that much emphasis on raiding or high level pvp yet either.

As for EQ, yeah as I said it was more social there was nothing else to do while sitting around then talk to your fellow players. Some people really enjoyed this, many others hated it. It all depended on how much you enjoy talking to random gamers on the internet and whether you considered this fun enough to sit around for 4 hours doing nothing. Personally if I want to chat with people I'd rather do it somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Drithius
This above quote struck me the most:

Is this true? It completely kills any inkling of desire I had to try the game.

EQ was also my first MMO and, while I realize there is some nostalgia going around, I think it was indeed more social. And more difficult. Nowadays, there is so very little camaraderie felt between group members (if a group is even required… but that is another matter). You join a group and 30 minutes later leave without a hello or goodbye. It's all so sterile.

People are generally so focused on self-gratification, that they dismiss most of everything else. In EQ, yes you camped a spot for hours… but you did so while having fun with others.