I hope you realize that you you are arguing with a guy (Nathan) who builds subs that leave anything Deftech has ever produced in the dust. Deftech subs are middle-of-the-road at best. They never meet their ridiculous, exaggerated, over the top specifications. Nathan is the guy than many hard-core enthusiasts turn to when they get bored with certain so-so performing subs such as Deftechs. If you want to keep that argument going, you're just going to wind up looking silly.

Hey mmike...

As the former owner of 8 high"er"-end subs ($1500+) I can assure you that the Def Tech Trinity (streets about $2100) is an all-out performer and prolly in the top 2-3 overall that I've heard or owned. Yeah, I think that much of it and still remember it well...tremendous output and extension in my room. And never struck me
as bloated or uncontrolled.

And regarding their (DT) specs...it's been beaten to death a million times on avs: all they really do not provide are -3 and/or -6db output figures.

I've always said that anyone who believes their ~one cubic foot boxes deliver 20hz performance are getting precisely what they deserve. Sure it's not ideal specification on DT's part but at this level of the game consumers need to do some of the lifting themselves.

And actually, understanding their brick and mortar nature and ability to be had substantially less than their MSRP, I think most of the DT offerings higher up the food chain offer pretty decent value (not value KINGS, mind you)- especially compared to their b&m bretheren.

It has to be undersrood that many simply won't/can't order a big matte black box off an ID site and call it a day. Personally my first inclination (like many others) is I don't really think it's that big of a deal, but I'm enlightened enough now to know better.

Not meant to be a pom-pom fest for DT, just saying they have their demographic and it really isn't those looking to squeeze every db of output they can out of $800.

Again though I can understand how strong the thought can be when it comes to thinking: "you could do so much better for $1000 (fill in the blank)". It's a hard mind set to shake, but we just have to remember some have dramatically different priorities: budgets, dimensions...and- gulp- WAFs.

Respectfully,

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

As the former owner of 8 high"er"-end subs ($1500+) I can assure you that the Def Tech Trinity (streets about $2100) is an all-out performer and prolly in the top 2-3 overall that I've heard or owned. Yeah, I think that much of it and still remember it well...tremendous output and extension in my room. And never struck me
as bloated or uncontrolled.

And regarding their (DT) specs...it's been beaten to death a million times on avs: all they really do not provide are -3 and/or -6db output figures.

I've always said that anyone who believes their ~one cubic foot boxes deliver 20hz performance are getting precisely what they deserve. Sure it's not ideal specification on DT's part but at this level of the game consumers need to do some of the lifting themselves.

And actually, understanding their brick and mortar nature and ability to be had substantially less than their MSRP, I think most of the DT offerings higher up the food chain offer pretty decent value (not value KINGS, mind you)- especially compared to their b&m bretheren.

It has to be undersrood that many simply won't/can't order a big matte black box off an ID site and call it a day. Personally my first inclination (like many others) is I don't really think it's that big of a deal, but I'm enlightened enough now to know better.

Not meant to be a pom-pom fest for DT, just saying they have their demographic and it really isn't those looking to squeeze every db of output they can out of $800.

Again though I can understand how strong the thought can be when it comes to thinking: "you could do so much better for $1000 (fill in the blank)". It's a hard mind set to shake, but we just have to remember some have dramatically different priorities: budgets, dimensions...and- gulp- WAFs.

Respectfully,

James

James, I realize that the Trinity is a good performer, but it is their top-of-the-line, flagship sub and I wouldn't consider it to represent their body of work in the sub world. For every Trinity they sell, they probably sell at least 20 or 30X more of the lesser supercubes and whatnot which I would consider to be mediocre subs. Are there worse subs out there? Sure, but there are also several better ones. To me, that plants them soundly in the middle-of-the-road territory.

As far as their reputation for embellished specmanship goes, I know it's been done to death, but that doesn't make it go away and it doesn't stop the practice from being unethical. We enlightened AVS readers are well aware of their practice, but the average schmuck is still snookered by into thinking that a 1 ft. cube is going to give them 16hz performance. I don't share your belief that it is ok for a company to pull the wool over the eyes of the less informed. That most likely represents the bulk of the buyers out there. I can't help but lose respect for a company that sells products that way.

Only? Only the most basic spec for a sub. If you can't be bothered to provide something that basic, it doesn't give much confidence in their product.

I will give you (again) that it's a notable omission, but they sell their goods in stores where people have opportunity to listen/audition themselves and make a decision- against competing product, even. Between that considerable reality and the considerable testing conducted by major mags/online testing (where more definitive specs can be had through a 3 sec "google") only a consumer who makes a conscience decision to avoid a modicum of due diligence wouldbe led terribly astray.

Nevertheless, I concede that a -3db number would be appropriate, but you can be all-but guaranteed that a good number would still question that and or the methodology by which it was realized. DT is the Duke of the industry: fantastically loathed by huge numbers for reasons that stretch way beyond -3db subwoofer figures.

Basically I would agree that their "speccing" could be better...but that doesn't change the product they sell.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

James, I realize that the Trinity is a good performer, but it is their top-of-the-line, flagship sub and I wouldn't consider it to represent their body of work in the sub world. For every Trinity they sell, they probably sell at least 20 or 30X more of the lesser supercubes and whatnot which I would consider to be mediocre subs. Are there worse subs out there? Sure, but there are also several better ones. To me, that plants them soundly in the middle-of-the-road territory.

As far as their reputation for embellished specmanship goes, I know it's been done to death, but that doesn't make it go away and it doesn't stop the practice from being unethical. We enlightened AVS readers are well aware of their practice, but the average schmuck is still snookered by into thinking that a 1 ft. cube is going to give them 16hz performance. I don't share your belief that it is ok for a company to pull the wool over the eyes of the less informed. That most likely represents the bulk of the buyers out there. I can't help but lose respect for a company that sells products that way.

Just my opinion...

Mike:

I suspect there's prolly a solid middle ground between where either of us stand.

I would consider the fact that the "average smuck" has absolutely no idea what "16hz performance" is to begin with and if he or she does I would give them credit in advance that there's a good chance they know they won't be getting it (substantially, anyway) out of a sub the size of a bread box.

I can't speak for every piece of lit they have produced, but most times, I read "down to" regarding their response figures, so if there IS response down to 27hz (be it -10 or -15dbs) it's not blatantly false and again- for anyone who understands the spec to begin with- they already know better and will simply chuckle and disregard it anyway. For those that do not, they almost will simply audition/compare it and make a decision from there without considering for a second which one has more proposed "hurts".

To me, it's really more about how definitive compares to comparably priced subs with a decent aesthetic that can be readily auditioned (and returned) at/to a local b&m...and in that regard I think they hold their own.

I do not argue that a -3db inclusion wouldn't be beneficial and more transparent (for lack of a better word). Perhaps one day it'll happen just to save them from email and forum hell, but seeing they've been pretty much unmoved up till now, I seriously doubt it.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

James, I realize that the Trinity is a good performer, but it is their top-of-the-line, flagship sub and I wouldn't consider it to represent their body of work in the sub world. For every Trinity they sell, they probably sell at least 20 or 30X more of the lesser supercubes and whatnot which I would consider to be mediocre subs. Are there worse subs out there? Sure, but there are also several better ones. To me, that plants them soundly in the middle-of-the-road territory.

As far as their reputation for embellished specmanship goes, I know it's been done to death, but that doesn't make it go away and it doesn't stop the practice from being unethical. We enlightened AVS readers are well aware of their practice, but the average schmuck is still snookered by into thinking that a 1 ft. cube is going to give them 16hz performance. I don't share your belief that it is ok for a company to pull the wool over the eyes of the less informed. That most likely represents the bulk of the buyers out there. I can't help but lose respect for a company that sells products that way.

Just my opinion...

Hi James, and everyone else who reads this.

Im a copywriter and I thought I would spill a little about writing ethics. As you know, there are none. When I was in school (university), we had the huge assignment on ethics in journalism and technical communications, however all of the supporting documentation that I studied said that you can write whatever you want as long as there are disclaimers somewhere and the writing leaves something open to interpretation. In the case of 16Hz performance, if there is a measurable amount of output at 16hz, it could be argued that the statement is true, no matter how miniscual the measurement or misleading the statement. Is it bull poop? Yes. Can we stop it? Nope. That's why we should all measure our gear and promote manufacturers that are honest/complete in their measurements.

I'm not slamming anyone, just saying that we have the opportunity to expose misleading marketing.

I'm not sure measuring your gear is such a good idea. Knowing how bad your gear is, only leads to a new round of upgrades.
I did what you suggested in your above and recently finished testing and dialing in our eighteen year olds subs. And do they suck wind.

LOL!!!! I know what you mean. I went to a studio in Edmonton AB and was present for the measurement of some B&W equipment..... not very good and no where near what the manufacturer said they were... this was about 14 years ago now, and I can't remember what the measurements were. Since then I only buy what I can return if Im not happy. And that's where FA has just been steadily good. Their measurements are conservative, the return policies and customer satisfaction policies are second to none, and Nathan is even helping out with an upgrade. Hoorah!