Well, that was an eye opener!

Well, I just watched "Unchained - New World Disorder 6", and I can honestly say that aside from being simultaneously lame, melodramatic, and trashy, it made an impact. For the first time in 20 years of being a Mountain Biker & MTB access activist, I completely understand the reaction folks like the Sierra Club are having, wanting to ban bikes everywhere they can.

I don't even see what that has to do with mountain biking. Yeah, it happens on two wheels and off road. But I wouldn't call them cyclists. Seems like it's just a bunch of bmx kids doing tricks off jumps. Which might be neat I guess, if it were kept on a track. Trashing the pristine face of a mountain a million years in the making so you can do your little 2 second stunt and then mug like a idiot at the camera while talking about how this crap "helped the sport"... its atrocious. That was definitely a perspective changing hour.

I've spent 2/3 of my life in this sport. If this is the driection this sport is going to go, if these asshats are just going to continue this crap until they run all the progress we've made into the ground, then the sooner it's over with the better.

Well, I just watched "Unchained - New World Disorder 6", and I can honestly say that aside from being simultaneously lame, melodramatic, and trashy, it made an impact. For the first time in 20 years of being a Mountain Biker & MTB access activist, I completely understand the reaction folks like the Sierra Club are having, wanting to ban bikes everywhere they can.

I don't even see what that has to do with mountain biking. Yeah, it happens on two wheels and off road.

While I can't disagree with some of your points (trashy and melodramatic especially), these are pretty broad generalizations based on watching 45 minutes of a movie. What you should realize is that most mt. biking movies, in general, have those quick (MTV style) edits with hucks, dirt jumps or urban sessions. Why is that? Because it's the easiest and cheapest for filmmakers to capture and their editing creativity is practically non-existent……

Personally, I’d love to see more flowy, rippin’ singletrack stuff on movies, but it’s hard to capture the speed and exhilaration of riding really good singletrack…..you know the kind where you’re hooting and hollering the whole way down. The kind where you’ve got a sh!t eating grin on your face for hours. I’ve taken hours of helmet cam footage flowing in some killer destinations and it always amazes me how good they are in person and how totally unspectacular they translate to video. I think the Collective has done this best, but all of the filmmakers could do much better here, imo.

To the topic of “the future of our sport”. To be honest, I think our sport is currently evolving. I’ve noticed that even “old-school” xc riders now stop to session a technical area on the trail nowadays - whether it's a tough climb, a burly rock garden, a chute, a drop or a ladder bridge. It seems that with bike technology advances, there have been big leaps in riders’ abilities over the past 3-5 years. I know that was the case for me and our crew. I ride with 15+ guys that range from late 20’s to mid 50’s and everyone is technically stronger these days and some of that may be due to the equipment…... As a result, we mix in more challenging rides along with our weekly xc rides.

I feel that a better way to look at DH and FR scene is that you've got a (mostly) young, energetic and passionate group of people getting into our sport who can help it if given the right set of tools and knowledge. Frankly, I’m amazed at how far the progression of tricks has come in the past several years from these young rippers. While folks like myself got into our sport by first riding XC (still do) and are aware of the history, many people are getting into our sport riding FR and DH and many of them need to be educated on the history of access issues and the impact they can make – both positively and negatively. Instead of calling this crap, places in the PNW have embraced this direction and work with the local builders (adults and kids) to make stuff that is safe and fun to ride, less risky, well signed, etc. The local clubs are also actively working to get these folks involved in advocacy and creating new areas for them to ride. If you’ve got folks stoked to ride, why not get their input on trails and get them out there digging?!?!

Some folks may love to do 40 mile epics in the backcountry, some may want to hit the bike park all day, some like to do urban sessions after work and some want to dirt jump. Some, like myself, like to do all of the above and I feel like when we realize that all other user groups categorize us all as “bikers” whether we’re on a 22 lb. hardtail or a 45 lb. DH bike, the sooner we’ll be able to have a more commanding presence with our land managers and legislators. Until then, we’re just a bunch of finger-pointing nit wits.

The Collective was the first Mt Biking movie I saw, and I can say Ive been disappointed
with every one Ive seen since then. Maybe they should make fewer movies and put out a better quality movie. OF course the must be an audience for these low grade movies or they wouldnt keep making them. I dont know that it hurting the sport, but its not helping.

agreed

Originally Posted by smw

The Collective was the first Mt Biking movie I saw, and I can say Ive been disappointed
with every one Ive seen since then. Maybe they should make fewer movies and put out a better quality movie. OF course the must be an audience for these low grade movies or they wouldnt keep making them. I dont know that it hurting the sport, but its not helping.

Sean

The Collective was the first full length bike vid I watched, and it is still the best.

Yeah, I have issues with people building stunts and stunt trails where they shouldn't. I haven't actually watched New World Disorder 6, so I can't say that they were doing things where they shouldn't. However, my biggest concern has been the kids who watch the vids and think it's cool to go out and build a stunt, without permission, in the middle of a trail. (Um, I've actually been a little bit guilty of this sort of thing myself, so I understand the impulse to "create" a stunt when you see some prime stunt material by the side of the trail.)

I'm 17 and I'm one of those young guns with the DH and FR sceen. I also ride XC so I love the trails. I see where you're comin' from about the jumps in trails. I do like boost for jumps, but not on a good single track. And I do most of my FR in my yard where there is ledges and stuff, but a lot of kids don't have that so they trying to find a place to do that stuff. Even though they are builbing in good trails, they're just trying to have fun like the rest of us. The reason they're building on pemade trails is that they don't really know what they're doing when it comes to making and clearing a trail.

I'm 19 and a pure trail/XC rider- I got into MTB thorugh bushwalking. You do have to admit that though that FR & DH'ers cause a fair amount of erosion- the abundance of skidding done by the pro's can be viewd by riders on such mtb videos and movies. Also, many of the MTB movies don't even go near the issue about the environment, sustainable riding and trail building. So unfortunately many of the new young riders don't quite get this. Where I've moved to for uni, all of the other riders around my age group are heavily into FR/DH and quite frankly couldn't give a 'badword' about the sustainability of the sport- all they seem to care about is "pin it!" I find myself riding with 30+ yo riders (not that it's bad, it's a really nice change from my usual friends at uni).

I love to watch FR and DH... in fact I've tried doing some DH runs- but it just doesn't interest me (well it actually scares me stiff). I believe that this area of our sport has its place- it's what may just make it 'popular' again (4X on tv), which would be nice because the closest I get to the 'glory days' is the section at the the back of Mountain Bike Action. But I also believe that its dragging the rest of our sport down too- aforementioned points about trail care. I think that if you are into these disciplines and meet younger riders- talking about trail care/responsible riding should be next to talking about which chain guide to run.

Well, I just watched "Unchained - New World Disorder 6", and I can honestly say that aside from being simultaneously lame, melodramatic, and trashy, it made an impact. For the first time in 20 years of being a Mountain Biker & MTB access activist, I completely understand the reaction folks like the Sierra Club are having, wanting to ban bikes everywhere they can.

I don't even see what that has to do with mountain biking. Yeah, it happens on two wheels and off road. But I wouldn't call them cyclists. Seems like it's just a bunch of bmx kids doing tricks off jumps. Which might be neat I guess, if it were kept on a track. Trashing the pristine face of a mountain a million years in the making so you can do your little 2 second stunt and then mug like a idiot at the camera while talking about how this crap "helped the sport"... its atrocious. That was definitely a perspective changing hour.

I've spent 2/3 of my life in this sport. If this is the driection this sport is going to go, if these asshats are just going to continue this crap until they run all the progress we've made into the ground, then the sooner it's over with the better.

I've only seen the different videos on as background at a few local shops. Never had any interest in purchasing one either, but that is not the point I want to make.

Some of the best 'movies' have been the helmet cams that local riders are making of their own rides. These show the flow, the effort, the challenge that some XC rides have. I might like these because I understand, or it might be because the riders look like they're having a blast!

One of the riders from around here went out to Moab, and he's an agressive XC type rider, it makes me want to ride (and even avoid in one case) the trails out there. The sense of flow, the sense of challenge are in his video. It's not the slick professionally done video like the ones I could buy, but it's one that makes me go ride.

Just need a place to host all of these videos and I think we'd have a solution to the problem of bad videos.

Well, I just watched "Unchained - New World Disorder 6", and I can honestly say that aside from being simultaneously lame, melodramatic, and trashy, it made an impact. For the first time in 20 years of being a Mountain Biker & MTB access activist, I completely understand the reaction folks like the Sierra Club are having, wanting to ban bikes everywhere they can.

This is an interesting topic. I watched "The Collective" about a week ago, and there were parts that I felt the same about it. After I thought about it I realized this was probably the best movie that I had seen on DVD. I'm not sure what that says about the industry as a whole.

Anyways I wanted to say that the helmet cam videos I've seen over the years blow these movies out of the water. Pete's, Winston's, and Wherewolf's helmet cams are great. Although the most impressive collection of helmet cam footage I have seen was at the IMBA trailwork school last year, when Nat Lopes showed footage from all of the trails that they had worked on the last year.

[ Some of the best 'movies' have been the helmet cams that local riders are making of their own rides. These show the flow, the effort, the challenge that some XC rides have. I might like these because I understand, or it might be because the riders look like they're having a blast!
Just need a place to host all of these videos and I think we'd have a solution to the problem of bad videos.

JmZ[/QUOTE]

Best idea Ive heard yet. I find the local/ helmet cam videos more entertaining too. Seems a hosting site would be great, we could watch rides from all over the world and decide where we want to take vacation.

I've watched many of the MTB movies... chain reaction, NWD, earthed2, Kranked, the collective etc.. I agree that some of the stuff is just blatant misuse of good riding areas. But we can't say that this style of riding is not part of the sport. Lets face it, it is. The Collective has some of the best footage I've seen in any of the movies. I believe it gives more life to the sport than other movies have. The trail building and such was amazing, along with the riding.

On the other hand, i've watched many of the "mountain bike bill" and "petefagerlin" movies and they are so close to what I like it's crazy. The singletrack footage is amazing.

Everyone has their own interests in our sport.. We all just need to accept it. I watch the MTB movies for entertainment. I would never buy a downhill bike, but it's fun to watch sometimes.

Helmet cams

I would agree that the helmet cams posted here are more enjoyable to watch. I've seen a few of those FR videos and the stunts they do are of course insane. I think the mountain bike parks are the way of the future for this type of riding. i can compare it to the skate boarding craze of the 80-'s. I was into that and the video ,along with a bunch of new skateparks really took off. That's just what the FR reminds me of. Building stunts on already developed trails is certainly not cool. What whistler and B.C. got going on is pretty impresive though. Just my 2 pesos!

Never's a really long time. For instance, a good buddy that's been riding XC for over 15 years and recently turned 46, just bought a DH bike this winter. Another that's been xc riding for 20+ years and raced BMX in the early 80's just picked up a used FR bike on ebay.

Granted, we live in an area where these bikes are utilized regularly with areas to ride them, but I'd say don't knock it, 'til you've tried it! I've known more than a few XC guys that walked away from Whistler with the bug and a whole new set of skills. On that note and for what it's worth, I've picked up many skills while riding my FR bike that have carried over to big gains on my XC rig and vice versa.

Never's a really long time. For instance, a good buddy that's been riding XC for over 15 years and recently turned 46, just bought a DH bike this winter. Another that's been xc riding for 20+ years and raced BMX in the early 80's just picked up a used FR bike on ebay.

Granted, we live in an area where these bikes are utilized regularly with areas to ride them, but I'd say don't knock it, 'til you've tried it! I've known more than a few XC guys that walked away from Whistler with the bug and a whole new set of skills. On that note and for what it's worth, I've picked up many skills while riding my FR bike that have carried over to big gains on my XC rig and vice versa.

Cheers,
EBX

I agree...all of the FR biking i do has inproved my XC riding HUGE..esp on the downhills and I actually love the climbs a bit more...it's nice to earn them once in a while.I know that the kids that are kicking a$$ out there might not have the same respect for the trails that they should but if you watch them you should at least be able to acknowledge what they can do.I love the way the sport is progressing..I wish i had gotten in to it many years ago...but at 34 I find that I love FR,XC and Urban.I just watched a really good movie..lots of it was in Whistler....and it was great.But of course i have no idea what it was (such a girl,lol) but the riding was amazing.And then.of couse, I cant wait to ride Whistler again.Kona

EBX
Couldn't agree with you more. The stye of riding, stunts, trails, and bikes have changed so much within the past five years it's incrediable! What hasn't changed/improved is the mentality of some of these riders/filmers have towards the trails they ride - some just don't give a **** and think they can do whatever they want, where they want. One example - a bike movie was filmed here in Kamloops, on trails that were already in trouble of closing. Did they care and move the location? no way ! They built the stunts anyway and left a hell-of-a-mess for the City to clean up after the filming was done - thanks guys you just put us back in the doghouse with the public!!
If the Ski Hills, such as Whistler an others, didn't embrace our wounderful sport when they did , I think the "sport" of Mountain Biking (X-C, DH, FR) would have been pounded back to the Stone Ages never to be seen again.

New Collective trailer.

On the points about the Collective, folks can see how much goes into a particular shot if done right. Check out the teaser below to see the amount of cable cam work they're doing here. I know, for instance, that a shot where Wade Simmons does a big road gap on their first movie took a full day to set up for. Most film makers don't have the time, budget or creativity to do something like that in their films.

While I can't disagree with some of your points (trashy and melodramatic especially), these are pretty broad generalizations based on watching 45 minutes of a movie. What you should realize is that most mt. biking movies, in general, have those quick (MTV style) edits with hucks, dirt jumps or urban sessions. Why is that? Because it's the easiest and cheapest for filmmakers to capture and their editing creativity is practically non-existent……

yeah, it's sort of like saying a Warren Miller ski flick that's 90% heli skiing sick lines in the chugach is indicative of the general state of skiing...

It's Porn

Originally Posted by formica

yeah, it's sort of like saying a Warren Miller ski flick that's 90% heli skiing sick lines in the chugach is indicative of the general state of skiing...

The common thread that I see between a state of the art ski film and a like bike film is that it is sending a strong message to the people that watch it that being out of bounds is all right. Think of the danger of avalanche in 90% of those shots, it is real. While it will not harm the environment much in the Chugach in the winter it could mean death, biking all over the place does leave damage, many times irreperable and death to the environment as it were.

While they may disclaim that it is all done by pro riders on closed courses it still sends out the vibe that it is "what to do". So if someone is hurt trying to immitate their on screen heroes or the land is scarred who is going to take the blame? Certainly not the producers. Which is not very right. Another example are the car ads on tv where they are ripping it up to show how much power you have with your new toy.

A bit of a confession here though. My son works for a film company and has had footage in the last 3 NWD flims. I love my son, but I haven't watched any of it and he is always getting me to look at his ski footage.

A point is being missed here: many areas used for filming are multi-use, and the film makers have gotten permission from the appropriate entities to do what they do. What might appear to be careless destruction of pristine dirt might, in fact, be nothing of the sort. Take the Redbull course in S. Utah, for instance. Before the event, it was a garbage dump (literally). Riders restored it.

Sure, there are exceptions, where bad decisions are made by clueless people. By and large, however, rules are followed. Making the blanket statement that all gravity riders are nothing but a scourge to the environment and a liability to the sport is about as intelligent and informed as saying all XC riders are nothing but anal, lycra-clad weenies more interested in shaving 1.25 seconds off a climb than simply enjoying the ride.

The NWD series is not about race footage or rides in the woods. People buy the videos to see riders push the envelope of what's possible on two wheels. As formica said, it's not illustrative of what general mountain bike riding is all about.

Before you spout off and attack a segment of the riding population, stop and think first. Are your comments based on a diverse sampling population, or are they made using only a few data points near the edge of the curve?

I would suggest using the remaining 1/3 of your days not being so critical of a certain population and, rather, figuring out how you can use your access activism experience to better educate and integrate all riders. Why do you think horse riders are so influential in trail usage policy, when their animals - by and large - do far more damage to pristine wilderness than bikes ever will? They stand as one, and speak with a united voice. Western, english, hunters, whatever...it doesn't matter. If we continue to insist on fracturing the community into XC, trail riders, freeriders, DH'ers, etc then you are right: we're done. We might as well get it over with as fast as possible and accept that we're eventually going to be tossed off of every piece of dirt on public lands.

Making the blanket statement that all gravity riders are nothing but a scourge to the environment and a liability to the sport is about as intelligent and informed as saying all XC riders are nothing but anal, lycra-clad weenies more interested in shaving 1.25 seconds off a climb than simply enjoying the ride.

Your words, not mine. The film in question just happened to be, well yes, about Freeriding. (a very popular segment of our sport right now) I was using that as a example to make a point that not all riders ( note the word "riders" - not FR's or DH'rs) follow and respect the rules of the trail. If this wasn't the case - why are we having so many trail issues?

If it was a DH'r blowing past some hikers on a training run, or a FR putting some nails into a tree for a stunt , or a X-C rider leaving his tube on the trail - all it takes is one careless person to ruin it for others (X-C, DH, and FR)

I think I see why you are getting upset. I used the word "stunt" in my previous post, you automatically assumed I was signaling out 1 or 2 user groups, ( perhaps one you do) well that's not true. Stunts can apply to FR's, DH'rs and yes even the X-C guys.
Or maybe it was my comment about ski hill's saving mtb'ing? I wasn't implying FR or DH have effected mtb in a negative way and needed to be moved up to the mtn where no one can see them - mountain biking was in trouble way before FR was ever born ie: Mt Tam
What I meant by that was, with ski resorts now embracing bikes, riders (yes even the x-c) can go up to the mtn and enjoy themselves in a controlled, legal enviornment and not have to worry about any user conflicts. Simple - everyone's happy (maybe except for the fact that you now need to pay to ride your bike)
Well I spent a greater 1/3 of my hour typing this so it's time for me to go

I've just watched Cease and Desist and felt it made an impact also. 20 years as an mtber and trail pioneer and I'm bummed my skills and trail building have not kept pace with whats in that movie. I see creativity and soul, I like what is said, and the example it sets.

I identify with what this particular movie represents and it inspires me. People respond to different stimulus. The Collective was great too, only seen the trailer for NWD. But your point is valid.

Just wanted to put in a plug for Cease and Desist cause I can't quit thinking about it...
must go build...

Well perhaps I should rephrase this.. I would never buy a freeride bike for this area. I might get something in the "All-Mountain" category but nothing that weight 45lbs. Of course some of those allmountain bikes are pretty damn heavy. .. If this area had more places to ride I might be more apt to try it out.

Let me start by saying...

I ride XC, but love technical stuff and would ride DH, FR bikes on bigger technical stuff given the chance. Still I guess Im old school because I came to this sport when all MTBs were rigids. I have seen it go front suspension, then dual suspension and then rapidly to the 8-10 inch, monster-travel, bikes that everyone loves to ride now.

I mention this because having been in the sport as long as I have been, I know all about the access issues and have had plenty of time to learn trail etiquette and most importantly IMHO "leave no trace" (tire tracks are fine) What I perceive to be the problem is not the direction the sport is taking, or the types of bikes or specialized groups (I think all that is fine) but rather that many (not all) of the new riders coming into the sport for its extreme/choppy MTV video clip side of things dont learn these things. Unfortunately most of the videos contribute to this, I think that this is a big problem. For example several times I have met younger kids (teens) that had big-hit bikes on multi-use trails and thought it was OK to jump off everything and bomb down every downhill sesction at 35+ MPH. Sadly, they didnt know any better, they didnt know they had to yield to other users (the one kid did not even know to carry an xtra tube even though he was launching off 5-6 drops - yes he pinch flatted ) I have seen this quite a bit...and with all that they know being these movies - its hard to say "hey dude, thats just not cool here" and get understanding.

So the question is, who is to blame? Producers/bike makers/shops selling DH/FR bikes? I think its kind of everyones fault. I think everyone is playing ostrich here, with their collective head in the sand hoping that everything will be fine. Unfortunately that is just not the case. If more and more of these kinds of bikes are sold and less and less of the biking population is being taught the rules of what is and is not ok, well, then we ALL will suffer more trail closures and more ill-will from the hiker/horsey/nature groups that dont like us. That is the reality we are facing....the problem is the people with money at stake: producers/manufacturers/sellers are not going to jeopardize their new meal ticket.

I dont want anyone, especially those of you that are DH/FR/extreme riders, to think this is a personal attack on you. I can appreciate the riding you do, just as I appreciate the rigid SS'ers that pound out 30-40 miles in a day. In fact, I like all bikes and I am amazed at the skills some people possess. However, all of those new to the sport NEED to be good ambassadors for biking. Everybody needs to show more respect to other users and watch what they are doing - ie, ride the appropriate way in the appropriate areas. Since the industry is not going to change we all have to make a point to better instruct newbs of what is acceptable and what is not. We need to be cognizant of the fact that the only "us versus them" are bikers vs those (non-bikers) that want to exclude us from certain lands to ride on NOT XC vs FR vs DH vs SS vs 29 or whatever else. The new bikes and the diversity is good for the sport, the fractionalization between members of the tribe (old skool term) is not. All of us bikers need to do more trail work, educate others more, and be more respectful of others and the environment. Whatever we may think of ourselves, we have to realize that no matter if we like it or not, we are all lumped together (regardless of discipline) as mountain bikers by everyone else.

I ride XC, but love technical stuff and would ride DH, FR bikes on bigger technical stuff given the chance. Still I guess Im old school because I came to this sport when all MTBs were rigids. I have seen it go front suspension, then dual suspension and then rapidly to the 8-10 inch, monster-travel, bikes that everyone loves to ride now.

I mention this because having been in the sport as long as I have been, I know all about the access issues and have had plenty of time to learn trail etiquette and most importantly IMHO "leave no trace" (tire tracks are fine) What I perceive to be the problem is not the direction the sport is taking, or the types of bikes or specialized groups (I think all that is fine) but rather that many (not all) of the new riders coming into the sport for its extreme/choppy MTV video clip side of things dont learn these things. Unfortunately most of the videos contribute to this, I think that this is a big problem. For example several times I have met younger kids (teens) that had big-hit bikes on multi-use trails and thought it was OK to jump off everything and bomb down every downhill sesction at 35+ MPH. Sadly, they didnt know any better, they didnt know they had to yield to other users (the one kid did not even know to carry an xtra tube even though he was launching off 5-6 drops - yes he pinch flatted ) I have seen this quite a bit...and with all that they know being these movies - its hard to say "hey dude, thats just not cool here" and get understanding.

So the question is, who is to blame? Producers/bike makers/shops selling DH/FR bikes? I think its kind of everyones fault. I think everyone is playing ostrich here, with their collective head in the sand hoping that everything will be fine. Unfortunately that is just not the case. If more and more of these kinds of bikes are sold and less and less of the biking population is being taught the rules of what is and is not ok, well, then we ALL will suffer more trail closures and more ill-will from the hiker/horsey/nature groups that dont like us. That is the reality we are facing....the problem is the people with money at stake: producers/manufacturers/sellers are not going to jeopardize their new meal ticket.

I dont want anyone, especially those of you that are DH/FR/extreme riders, to think this is a personal attack on you. I can appreciate the riding you do, just as I appreciate the rigid SS'ers that pound out 30-40 miles in a day. In fact, I like all bikes and I am amazed at the skills some people possess. However, all of those new to the sport NEED to be good ambassadors for biking. Everybody needs to show more respect to other users and watch what they are doing - ie, ride the appropriate way in the appropriate areas. Since the industry is not going to change we all have to make a point to better instruct newbs of what is acceptable and what is not. We need to be cognizant of the fact that the only "us versus them" are bikers vs those (non-bikers) that want to exclude us from certain lands to ride on NOT XC vs FR vs DH vs SS vs 29 or whatever else. The new bikes and the diversity is good for the sport, the fractionalization between members of the tribe (old skool term) is not. All of us bikers need to do more trail work, educate others more, and be more respectful of others and the environment. Whatever we may think of ourselves, we have to realize that no matter if we like it or not, we are all lumped together (regardless of discipline) as mountain bikers by everyone else.

I agree fully with what you said. Most kids that I talk to on the local trails seem willing to listen and help the sport as long as you don't get too confrontational. There will always be instances where people are jerks and don't want to listen but you have to do your best to educate people.

I recently had a run in with a FR rider that was doing the trails at our local system backwards b/c it had more interesting drops that way. And when I confronted him about it he told me to "f**k off" that I was on a "***** ass xc bike and I can't tell him ****." Well that really irked the hell out of me b/c all I wanted to tell him that if he insists on riding the trail system backwards at least have a 2nd to look as a lookout so to avoid injury, especially on some of the blind hills. So I went to the parks office and had him removed but that being said I have had other encounters where people were willing to listen and learn.

For the most part people will listen and the ones that don't wouldn't do it anyway regardless of sport. I really don't like blaming TV or Vids for kids being jerks I blame Parents for not teaching them respect for things in the 1st place. I think that there are alot of people in the free ride community that are smart and teach good ettiquette to riders and as long as there numbers grow I am fine with vids that show disrespect.

Well, thanks to everyone who posted. There are quite a few very passionate posts on here, and that's always nice to see. Several interesting points as well. I thought I'd give this thread some room to breathe before I replied to any of it, but I may have waited too long.

I was pretty emotionally charged when I wrote that original post, and it came off a bit more harsh & hotheaded than I typically like to get. It was also more tangential, and the widely varying responses reflect that. Apologies if this post is badly worded, I'm typing fast, as there seems to be a lot to say and little time to do it in.

Here's what happened:

I work for a small high-end custom component manufacturer. We're planning on taking some of our components to mass production and going big next year. It came time to down trying to decide which niches we want to focus on, and when we came to "Freeride" we realized it's been a year or 3 since we've paid much attention to it. We thought we'd start by grabbing a few of the newer vids & then go spend some time out in it. However, we came away from watching those videos with mixed reactions.

On one hand: The FR is youthful, fast, exciting, & flashy. Looks great in print, on tv, everything. Pure sensationalism, totally MBA. The people are learning new and exciting skills, having lots of fun and the bikes are hot on the heels of riders abilities, in a constant state of innovation. These bikes also suffer a lot of abuse and enjoy relatively short lifespans. This all makes FR an incredibly attractive market. Easy to sell.

On the other hand: The videos we watched are, accurately or not, a representation of our sport on film. Several of us came away with the feeling of the video more as incriminating evidence. True, Formica, most people do not ride off fragile formations in pristine wilderness areas. But the ones that do are becoming the focus and drive of the sport. And as many of you have keenly identified, we're perceived as one group by non-mountain bikers. Non-MTBers sometimes see us when we pass them out in the woods, where we have a few seconds to be impress them with our manners, but the rest of the time they're out, they have hours to observe, up close, our effects on the widerness. The only other thing they have to go on is video footage of us in action. And when that video has been compiled to make us look like a bunch of shredders tearing up mountain sides, we start losing in a large, large way.

In case it needs pointing out, shredders tearing up mountain sides IS destructive, also legitimately referred to as "bad".

But back to our own human-scale struggle of us vs them. Our acess opponents don't care one iota about how our personal riding skills are improving. They don't care about "pushing our sport forward". They care about the land getting trashed. They also compete with us for access. When the vast majority of what they see of us is destructive, they have a compelling case against us, complete with video evidence. They also have a TON of money to make their case in Washington. But we're making it so easy for them with actions and videos like what we're seeing in FR/DH.

Yes, equestrian, hiking, and other environmental groups have their respective unified voices, when it's time for a unified voice, which is when presenting their case. They also have as many valid divisions and concerns within their ranks as we do, and discuss them openly. This is how they arrive at thier strongest arguments. The "We have to be united" mantra has a time & place. The rest of the time, it's akin to saying "if you have a different opinion, shut the hell up", and is not constructive. If the group you're in starts doing something you see as wrong, do you shut up and let them hang themselves, or do you make your concerns heard?

The concern wasn't with the riding done at ski resorts. Ski resorts built those courses, and they maintain them, and you pay them to do it each time you ride there. It's a closed, functioning system. Getting an approved app from the gov for a day of shooting a bicycle movie on protected lands doesn't mean, "we have permission, so we're exempt from responsibility". If you're going to be doing big stunt riding where, when you land, you're going to tear up the face, then do that kind of riding in a private place where that face is going to be maintained, as in, mtb parks. Tearing up natural faces is trashing something you didn't build is getting something for nothing, and like anywhere else in life, has its reciprocal. The "Leave No Trace" philosophy is the only reason that post 1985, we're allowed to ride on any public lands at all. It's looking like theres a new generation of mountain bikers completely unaware of this, who are bound to learn it one way or another.

Often enough, we hear Freeride "pushing the envelope" as being "Progressive". If it turns out that this progression ends with another wave of land closures like we've been seeing over the last few years, is it still progress? In the respect that time progresses, and therefore anything that progresses in it does too in some direction, sure. But if mountain biking is about having a good time and some excersize, will the direction be in our favor? I don't see it with this movement.

On the points about the Collective, folks can see how much goes into a particular shot if done right. Check out the teaser below to see the amount of cable cam work they're doing here. I know, for instance, that a shot where Wade Simmons does a big road gap on their first movie took a full day to set up for. Most film makers don't have the time, budget or creativity to do something like that in their films.

I saw the trailer and was very impressed by the riding. More importantly, though: I noticed a jump built near Fischer Towers, in Utah on what is most likely BLM land (the scene where the guy jumps across a gully with the tower in the background). Yeah the riding is impressive and all that, but this attitude that it's OK to build stunts and trails anywhere so someone can do something to basically satisfy their own desires is very short-sighted and even selfish. A lot of this new riding style seems to be about the ego and the environment suffers. I've seen it first-hand- when people get pumped up on something; they start thinking less about the ramifications of their actions. Unfortunately, a lot of stuff that's considered "cool" tears the land up.

Some great singletrack movies.....

This kind of riding is more along the lines of what I enjoy. Granted, I do enjoy turning off on a little-used path/game-trail and bombing down it full tilt, but what is depicted in the NWD movies is not what I envision when I think of MTB'ing as a whole.

There's a local group of trail-builder/freeriders here that have done some work & built a couple things in the local nature park.... and for the most part they're pretty invisible unless you actually catch them out there riding or refining their little trail system.
Unfortunately, one of their wooden launch ramps was burnt & demolished last summer, along with their wall-ride and seesaw.

Pretty sad that the people who burnt that stuff and thought it was for the better, did more harm to the forest than the freeriders.

Well, thanks to everyone who posted. There are quite a few very passionate posts on here, and that's always nice to see. Several interesting points as well. I thought I'd give this thread some room to breathe before I replied to any of it, but I may have waited too long.

I was pretty emotionally charged when I wrote that original post, and it came off a bit more harsh & hotheaded than I typically like to get. It was also more tangential, and the widely varying responses reflect that. Apologies if this post is badly worded, I'm typing fast, as there seems to be a lot to say and little time to do it in.

Here's what happened:

I work for a small high-end custom component manufacturer. We're planning on taking some of our components to mass production and going big next year. It came time to down trying to decide which niches we want to focus on, and when we came to "Freeride" we realized it's been a year or 3 since we've paid much attention to it. We thought we'd start by grabbing a few of the newer vids & then go spend some time out in it. However, we came away from watching those videos with mixed reactions.

On one hand: The FR is youthful, fast, exciting, & flashy. Looks great in print, on tv, everything. Pure sensationalism, totally MBA. The people are learning new and exciting skills, having lots of fun and the bikes are hot on the heels of riders abilities, in a constant state of innovation. These bikes also suffer a lot of abuse and enjoy relatively short lifespans. This all makes FR an incredibly attractive market. Easy to sell.

On the other hand: The videos we watched are, accurately or not, a representation of our sport on film. Several of us came away with the feeling of the video more as incriminating evidence. True, Formica, most people do not ride off fragile formations in pristine wilderness areas. But the ones that do are becoming the focus and drive of the sport. And as many of you have keenly identified, we're perceived as one group by non-mountain bikers. Non-MTBers sometimes see us when we pass them out in the woods, where we have a few seconds to be impress them with our manners, but the rest of the time they're out, they have hours to observe, up close, our effects on the widerness. The only other thing they have to go on is video footage of us in action. And when that video has been compiled to make us look like a bunch of shredders tearing up mountain sides, we start losing in a large, large way.

In case it needs pointing out, shredders tearing up mountain sides IS destructive, also legitimately referred to as "bad".

But back to our own human-scale struggle of us vs them. Our acess opponents don't care one iota about how our personal riding skills are improving. They don't care about "pushing our sport forward". They care about the land getting trashed. They also compete with us for access. When the vast majority of what they see of us is destructive, they have a compelling case against us, complete with video evidence. They also have a TON of money to make their case in Washington. But we're making it so easy for them with actions and videos like what we're seeing in FR/DH.

Yes, equestrian, hiking, and other environmental groups have their respective unified voices, when it's time for a unified voice, which is when presenting their case. They also have as many valid divisions and concerns within their ranks as we do, and discuss them openly. This is how they arrive at thier strongest arguments. The "We have to be united" mantra has a time & place. The rest of the time, it's akin to saying "if you have a different opinion, shut the hell up", and is not constructive. If the group you're in starts doing something you see as wrong, do you shut up and let them hang themselves, or do you make your concerns heard?

The concern wasn't with the riding done at ski resorts. Ski resorts built those courses, and they maintain them, and you pay them to do it each time you ride there. It's a closed, functioning system. Getting an approved app from the gov for a day of shooting a bicycle movie on protected lands doesn't mean, "we have permission, so we're exempt from responsibility". If you're going to be doing big stunt riding where, when you land, you're going to tear up the face, then do that kind of riding in a private place where that face is going to be maintained, as in, mtb parks. Tearing up natural faces is trashing something you didn't build is getting something for nothing, and like anywhere else in life, has its reciprocal. The "Leave No Trace" philosophy is the only reason that post 1985, we're allowed to ride on any public lands at all. It's looking like theres a new generation of mountain bikers completely unaware of this, who are bound to learn it one way or another.

Often enough, we hear Freeride "pushing the envelope" as being "Progressive". If it turns out that this progression ends with another wave of land closures like we've been seeing over the last few years, is it still progress? In the respect that time progresses, and therefore anything that progresses in it does too in some direction, sure. But if mountain biking is about having a good time and some excersize, will the direction be in our favor? I don't see it with this movement.

Wow, I totally agree. If this is an example of your companies philosophy please PM me with your companies name, I'd check you out for sure. Integrity? Foresight? Damn nice to hear it.

Ummmm, is some of this hate because you dont have any skills doing anything other than mellow singletrack? Progresion is what this sport is about, sorry if it involves "trashing" a million year old mountain cause they clear a line. In saying that, you yourself are "trashing" the earth riding trails on a mountain bike. Get over it.

Ummmm, is some of this hate because you dont have any skills doing anything other than mellow singletrack? Progresion is what this sport is about, sorry if it involves "trashing" a million year old mountain cause they clear a line. In saying that, you yourself are "trashing" the earth riding trails on a mountain bike. Get over it.

Im sure your too old to do it anyway.

Red Bull and Scabrider,

Bravo fellas.....you guys rock. Thanks so much for your eloquent responses. You've done much to progress our sport with your solid efforts and descriptions of what makes you passionate about riding your bikes.

By your response, I'm pretty sure that I'm at least 2x your age.... I've been riding FR'ing for 5 years seriously (Shore and Whistler) and XC riding probably as long as you've been alive and I know what happens to areas that get shut down to biking. It's a huge loss to the entire biking community and we all pay the price. If you don't think that folks building illegal trails and jumps don't impact the overall mt. biking community, you've got a rude awakening ahead of you. I guarantee that.

I'm here attempting to present the positive points of FR (there are numerous.imo) and have to deal with dumb f*cks like you guys? Give me a f'ing break!!

Next. Talking about guys that are "too old" to throw down. WTF? I've got buddy's who not only build the baddest trails you'll never see (except in photo shoots and videos), but they put me to shame on the trail. It would be pretty embarassing for you to be riding with my crew and have guys my age (and older) mop the floor with you while you're tooling around on a $5k bike that daddy bought you.

Sorry to take you two to task about this, but these forums can persuade others to think one way or the other about a particular discipline of our sport and your comments scream "idiot" when it comes to FR / DH. In particular, I get pissed because I FR at least half of my days on the bike and I'm trying to persuade the other half that we're not all a bunch of dolts. That involves maintaining existing trails, building new trail, stopping to chat with other users on the trail and working with land managers to know that we are a group to be reckoned with.

What's the saying? "Young, dumb and full of c*m." Yep, that pretty much describes you guys.

Here's my suggestion. Get involved in your local clubs. Donate money to them and help them maintain trails in your area - even if they're XC trails. Donate to IMBA and also help them when they're in your area. When you've done that, come back and talk to us.

Assuming you are talking to me, Yes I'm dead serious. The basic fact is that it doesn't matter who is "better" especialy if we ruin the playground in the process. If you know much about the environment in and around Moab, you realize how fragile it really is. The stunt I'm specifically refering too is on BLM land in the Professor Valley east of Moab. The soil there is basicly turns into powder that blows away in the wind when trampled. Building a jump, and an approach, not to mention a landing zone out in the middle of that so someone can show how well they handle a bike (and yes, he DOES handle the %&^* bike well) is criminal. I'm not against FR/DH, but I am against illegal trailbuilding, especialy in a place like this and everyone else should also be against it. What do you think the BLM is gonna think about mountainbikers when they start finding these things?

Well, I just watched "Unchained - New World Disorder 6", and I can honestly say that aside from being simultaneously lame, melodramatic, and trashy, it made an impact. For the first time in 20 years of being a Mountain Biker & MTB access activist, I completely understand the reaction folks like the Sierra Club are having, wanting to ban bikes everywhere they can.

I don't even see what that has to do with mountain biking. Yeah, it happens on two wheels and off road. But I wouldn't call them cyclists. Seems like it's just a bunch of bmx kids doing tricks off jumps. Which might be neat I guess, if it were kept on a track. Trashing the pristine face of a mountain a million years in the making so you can do your little 2 second stunt and then mug like a idiot at the camera while talking about how this crap "helped the sport"... its atrocious. That was definitely a perspective changing hour.

I've spent 2/3 of my life in this sport. If this is the driection this sport is going to go, if these asshats are just going to continue this crap until they run all the progress we've made into the ground, then the sooner it's over with the better.

I’m 33 and I started riding and racing XC about 10 years ago. Now I’m racing down hill and my xc bike has slowly evolved into a FR bike. I’ve spent my own share of time building and maintaining trails so I have a lot of dedication to the sport too. So since I’m in the Asshat category (according to you) let me explain something to you. It’s not us Asshats that are the problem. Its the people like you who whine all the time because you don’t like to share your trail What’s even funnier is using the argument of erosion all the time. Let me fill you in on a little secrete. Since the beginning of mankind there have been trails. And since there have been trails, people, animals, weather and machines have continuously eroded trails and we are not having an epidemic millions of years later where all the trails in the world have magically eroded away.

Let me fill you in on another little secrete which you haven’t noticed. ALL sports evolve. Race cars go faster then they did 20 years ago, MX riders go faster and higher and hell, even golfers can even get more height and distance because of better technology. Its called progression. So because you don’t understand, you come on this board and ramble crap about us being Asshats when in reality you’re the one that need to be more open minded.

We have trails now and if every square inch of land doesn’t have buildings a million years form now, it’s a safe bet we will have trails then too except the Asshats on bikes will be ripping it up 200+ miles an hour and some grumpy guy will be posting messages on whatever device that has replaced the internet by that time and he will be complaining about the Asshats going too fast and eroding the trails.

Well, I just watched "Unchained - New World Disorder 6", and I can honestly say that aside from being simultaneously lame, melodramatic, and trashy, it made an impact. For the first time in 20 years of being a Mountain Biker & MTB access activist, I completely understand the reaction folks like the Sierra Club are having, wanting to ban bikes everywhere they can.

I don't even see what that has to do with mountain biking. Yeah, it happens on two wheels and off road. But I wouldn't call them cyclists. Seems like it's just a bunch of bmx kids doing tricks off jumps. Which might be neat I guess, if it were kept on a track. Trashing the pristine face of a mountain a million years in the making so you can do your little 2 second stunt and then mug like a idiot at the camera while talking about how this crap "helped the sport"... its atrocious. That was definitely a perspective changing hour.

I've spent 2/3 of my life in this sport. If this is the driection this sport is going to go, if these asshats are just going to continue this crap until they run all the progress we've made into the ground, then the sooner it's over with the better.

Are you retarded? Do you seriosly think that two bike tires are going to destroy the bazzilion lbs of dirt and millions of years of erosion on this planet earth. Wake up fool.

I have been riding Mtb bikes for the last 17 years and motos for the past 30 years and have seen both evolve over that period of time.And one thing i see in common is the ability of a small minority to stuff it up for everybody else and move on to stuff up there next sport.

Hey, your one of those guys that just dont get it...

Originally Posted by milhouse

I’m 33 and I started riding and racing XC about 10 years ago. Now I’m racing down hill and my xc bike has slowly evolved into a FR bike. I’ve spent my own share of time building and maintaining trails so I have a lot of dedication to the sport too. So since I’m in the Asshat category (according to you) let me explain something to you. It’s not us Asshats that are the problem. Its the people like you who whine all the time because you don’t like to share your trail

Try reading all the posts in the thread before getting offended. The asshats term was directed at those setting up stunts and riding off-trail, which no matter what you think, is wrong. In any park, trail system or anyplace mountain bikers are allowed to ride riding off trail is not acceptable, period. Doing it so you can hit some sweet jump/drop does not make it so. If you do so, well, then you are an asshat. As for sharing trails, again, multi-use trails are not for shuttle runs and impromptu races on full-on downhill bikes. What do you not understand about this? Bikers are required to yield to all other users on the trail, at all times. If you have been riding for 10 years, you should know this. The whole point of this thread is that these new bikes need dedicated places to run at, that was the point which you managed to miss. Not knowing this is the case after 10 years in the sport shows gross ignorance on your part.

Originally Posted by milhouse

What’s even funnier is using the argument of erosion all the time. Let me fill you in on a little secrete. Since the beginning of mankind there have been trails. And since there have been trails, people, animals, weather and machines have continuously eroded trails and we are not having an epidemic millions of years later where all the trails in the world have magically eroded away.

You are exactly right, there are many trails that have been around for 100s and 1000s of years. The reason that erosion is mitigated is because the trails exist - it is confined to the narrow path that people and animals stick to. The trail is not the problem, continually widening it, or making numerous new ones in the same place is the problem.

Originally Posted by milhouse

Let me fill you in on another little secrete which you haven’t noticed. ALL sports evolve. Race cars go faster then they did 20 years ago, MX riders go faster and higher and hell, even golfers can even get more height and distance because of better technology. Its called progression.

We have noticed that, the question is whether all progress is a good thing. Sometimes, humans are capable of technical progress at a much faster rate than our understanding of its consequences. The point was that many, not all of the new people coming into the sport were first being exposed to only one facet - the extreme sports side of it and were not learning the proper etiquette. Yes everything progresses, automobiles can go 10-20 times faster than they could in 1906 does that mean that we are allowed or should be allowed to drive 120-150 miles an hour wherever and whenever we want. Just becuase you can go faster/higher/bigger does not mean that it is appropriate to do so. Again there are some places where it is ok to go full throttle and huck off anything however, in most places this is not the case.

Originally Posted by milhouse

So because you don’t understand, you come on this board and ramble crap about us being Asshats when in reality you’re the one that need to be more open minded.

At least he is trying to understand, you on the other hand dont agree with him and so therefore you must be right and he must be the problem. This is a very narrow-minded viewpoint.

Originally Posted by milhouse

We have trails now and if every square inch of land doesn’t have buildings a million years form now, it’s a safe bet we will have trails then too except the Asshats on bikes will be ripping it up 200+ miles an hour and some grumpy guy will be posting messages on whatever device that has replaced the internet by that time and he will be complaining about the Asshats going too fast and eroding the trails.

Again for someone with so much time in the sport you seem not to have much experience with the rounds of land closures and access issues that mountain bikers are dealing with. It is exactly thoughts like this last one that make it easy for Sierra Club members to want to fight to keep bikers out of wilderness areas. Us grumpy old guys are and will be be lumped together with Asshats like you on bikes ripping it up 200+ miles an hour - and you will be the one that really pisses them off. You will be the one that makes them think that all bikers are not out in the woods to enjoy them but rather for speed thrills and the extreme nature of the experience. And they will keep pressing to throw us off more trails. We will be lucky to have any open space at all in a few hundred years much less a million and this kind of attitude pretty much gaurantees that all the wilderness folks will have plenty of ammunition to keep us the one that will be left.

Khemical you are the poster boy for this thread....

Are you retarded? Do you seriosly think that two bike tires are going to destroy the bazzilion lbs of dirt and millions of years of erosion on this planet earth. Wake up fool.

Please go back and play with the other kiddies on the DH/FR forum. You with your misspellings and kewl vocabulary are a perfect example of what we have been discussing here. Your favorite trail is one you built - is it an illegal one? Have you ever built illegal stunts on an existing trail so you could boost higher or get more air? Do you think its acceptable to ride against the direction of the trail traffic cause the drops are better that way? Have you ever blown by other trail users without slowing down or giving way. Have you ever startled a horse on trail?

I would be willing to bet that the answer to at least one of my questions would be yes. That would prove exactly the kind of thing that I was talking about. Even though I would never do those things I am considered your best bud by the mad hiker/equestrian groups when it comes time to discuss who should be allowed on a new trail or kicked off an existing one. Your immature gnar-gnar behaviour that you think is soo cool is exactly the problem. Your fun and enjoyment cannot come at the expense of others. Again if you are not riding your downhill bike in an approved area you are in the wrong. Riding off-trail is NOT acceptable, ever. Its as simple as that.

BigDamo is
You are spot on with what you said, it is typically the actions of a small subgroup that ruin something for everyone. What I have always been amazed by is the attitude of that small group, it was never their fault, they are just being persecuted, everyone else is stupid, etc.

Moral of the story is, your not going to stop us, and whining about it on the internet will not solve whatever problem you think we have caused.

No thats not quite right, the moral here is that even though, you know its wrong you cant admit to it. Instead of adding something useful your response is that we cant stop you from acting irresponsibly and then the requisite added insult. How typical. Again, these last few posts are exactly what I was referring to in my first post. Thanks Red Bull and Khemical for coming here and demonstrating exactly the kind of attitude I was referring to. No matter that what you do will affect other users, you cant be held responsible for your own actions.

Tried to change some attitudes or generate some useful discussion but its quickly degenerating into name calling. I was trying to stay objective but its not coming out that way.

Okay, I havent read all of this, but "cross country" bikers can be, are as, or can be less mature than downhill/freeride bikers. People are people, and it doesnt matter what they do as a sport. All it is is a stereotype against the people that like to go down the mountain. Point is, you need to accept new things like this instead of defending what you do all of the time. There was once a time where no skier liked snowboarders and thought they were rude, destroyed everything, and got in the way. See how things have changed? Sorry if us "downhillers" or "freeriders" seem rude right now, but it seems like all your doing is making fun of our way of riding, so of course there may be some immature comments back. Biking is certainly progressing, and sorry if that can't be accepted. Sorry if we seem like different people because we do something different. I recommend not being so stereotypical first, that will help. I have absolutely nothing against any type of biker. I, myself, am not a lazy person either, even if i do downhill/freeride. I happen to cross country ski for my school...stereotypical?

Okay, I havent read all of this, but "cross country" bikers can be, are as, or can be less mature than downhill/freeride bikers. People are people, and it doesnt matter what they do as a sport. All it is is a stereotype against the people that like to go down the mountain. Point is, you need to accept new things like this instead of defending what you do all of the time. There was once a time where no skier liked snowboarders and thought they were rude, destroyed everything, and got in the way. See how things have changed? Sorry if us "downhillers" or "freeriders" seem rude right now, but it seems like all your doing is making fun of our way of riding, so of course there may be some immature comments back. Biking is certainly progressing, and sorry if that can't be accepted. Sorry if we seem like different people because we do something different. I recommend not being so stereotypical first, that will help. I have absolutely nothing against any type of biker. I, myself, am not a lazy person either, even if i do downhill/freeride. I happen to cross country ski for my school...stereotypical?

You are missing what the overall point is here. Skiing and Snowboarding you cannot really compare b/c they have never closed a slope b/c there were too many Snowboarders. Most of us don't care what bike you ride or how you decide to ride it as long as you follow the rules set forth by the Land Managers and the IMBA. Many of us have worked long and hard over many many years to see more and more trails be opened up to us. If you want to talk about being stereotyped take a look at what enviromentalists Classify us as. We to them are using a Mechanical conveyance and therefore need to be grouped with all other mechanical forms of transportation. (ie 4x4s, motorcycles, ATVs etc) and we share little if anything with them. But groups like the IMBA work together with the Sierra club ( an off road 4x4 club) b/c of this grouping, in order to lobby the goverment on our behalf. We are not turning this into an US vs Them fight. Most MTBers would like to have our numbers grow because when our numbers grow our voice grows and that can help us. What is the underlying theme here is respect. Respect for the trails that we ride, respect for the people we ride them with, respect for the people who have spent their lives fighting for trails and understand how the rest of society views us.

Mountain bikers are a small niche in our large society there are many people who would love to see the whole lot of us banned from public lands. Our image to them plays a large role in this and this is how this thread started. It is not a Hate all FR/DH riders it's not an XC vs FR/DH it's a thread about how people will view the Mountain bike community and how this will/can affect us as a whole.

To all the Freeriders/Downhillers- the people here are not saying that you specifically are a bad person or that you specifically are the problem. The main concern is that because of the actions of certain mountain bikers trail access is being threatened. These trail closures can effect those that ride mountain bikes, however are in no way related to the style of riding that may be the underlying cause for that trail closure. More specifically, if you were to were completely unbekown to the MTB world and picked up a DVD, you'd think that MTB was all about jumping off ledges, hitting 60 foot road gaps etc...

What the problem is, is that if you are a land manager/conservation group/walker... this type of riding scares them because those people on those bikes are a) going very fast, b) can be seen skidding a lot, c) are riding on man made objects/obstacles and d) are riding in places that is not a designated trail. Therefore, XC/trail riders sometimes feel as they've been given the short end of the stick- because simply put, XC/trail riding is nothing like that.

In terms of erosion from skidding and the such- I've seen XC/trail riders doing it. But what I do is politely let them know that what they're doing is not good for the environment or trail access.

A key factor to the issue regarding FR and DH is that the mentality that is put out accross thorugh many of these DVD's and other FR/DH orientated clips from the internet is that respecting other trail users, the environment and caring about trails access is simply either non existant or in fact portrayed as being 'weak'.

There is nothing wrong with this area of the sport- as mentioned before, I really like to watch it and I have the upmost respect to those riders and their skill level. However, in order all of us to ride the way we like and more importantly WHERE we like (ie keeping/opening trails), collectively we as MOUNTAIN BIKERS need to abide by the rules set out by the IMBA and land managers. It has been proven that this is the most sustainable method of keeping our sport alive (without trails we're just roadies with suspension/fat tyres).

Not to say that if the moment is so dire, that the only way to get noticed is to ride illegally- but those moments are rare and generally only annoy even more those that we are trying to convince to let us ride.

The point is: we collectively need to work towards the sustainability of our sport. Why? We all want to ride.

Try reading all the posts in the thread before getting offended. The asshats term was directed at those setting up stunts and riding off-trail, which no matter what you think, is wrong. In any park, trail system or anyplace mountain bikers are allowed to ride riding off trail is not acceptable, period. Doing it so you can hit some sweet jump/drop does not make it so. If you do so, well, then you are an asshat. As for sharing trails, again, multi-use trails are not for shuttle runs and impromptu races on full-on downhill bikes. What do you not understand about this? Bikers are required to yield to all other users on the trail, at all times. If you have been riding for 10 years, you should know this. The whole point of this thread is that these new bikes need dedicated places to run at, that was the point which you managed to miss. Not knowing this is the case after 10 years in the sport shows gross ignorance on your part.

Apparently you’re the one who didn’t read the post before you got bent out of shape. Read the first post which is the one I replied to. Where in that fist post did it mention "those setting up stunts and riding off-trail" as being an asshat? It was more directed at all us Fr'ers and Dh'ers. Where is the law that says trails are not for shuttle runs? And where in the post that I replied to did it say the point of the post was "that these new bikes need dedicated places to run at"? So read before you get you panties in a twist.

Originally Posted by CDtofer

You are exactly right, there are many trails that have been around for 100s and 1000s of years. The reason that erosion is mitigated is because the trails exist - it is confined to the narrow path that people and animals stick to. The trail is not the problem, continually widening it, or making numerous new ones in the same place is the problem.

I never said that making trails wider was cool but if you were to try and say us Asshats are the problem then I would laugh in your face. I can ride down any trail here in Northern NJ and see al kinds of paths where people couldn’t ride over a obstacle like a downed tree and they made there own path around it. I can say with pretty much certainty that not to many Asshats are riding around obstacles or tearing them down. So every time I hit the trails I see evidence of XC guys altering the trails but I never once noticed a trail that was altered negatively from people going fast and large.

Originally Posted by CDtofer

We have noticed that, the question is whether all progress is a good thing. Sometimes, humans are capable of technical progress at a much faster rate than our understanding of its consequences. The point was that many, not all of the new people coming into the sport were first being exposed to only one facet - the extreme sports side of it and were not learning the proper etiquette. Yes everything progresses, automobiles can go 10-20 times faster than they could in 1906 does that mean that we are allowed or should be allowed to drive 120-150 miles an hour wherever and whenever we want. Just becuase you can go faster/higher/bigger does not mean that it is appropriate to do so. Again there are some places where it is ok to go full throttle and huck off anything however, in most places this is not the case.

"proper etiquette" now theres one I might be able to side with you on if it meant just using common sense but for some reason Im thinking your idea of proper etiquette is riding elsewhere so I will just leave it at that. Cars do go 10, 20 or even 30 times faster then they did in 1906 and bikers are probably going 2 or 3 times as fast as they did back then so we have some catching up to do.

Originally Posted by CDtofer

At least he is trying to understand, you on the other hand dont agree with him and so therefore you must be right and he must be the problem. This is a very narrow-minded viewpoint.

I guess we'll just chalk this one up to you not reading befor posting again. So CDtofer, you have a homework assignment for tonight. I want you to read the top post and pull out all the parts where he was trying to understand. Was it this part "I completely understand the reaction folks like the Sierra Club are having, wanting to ban bikes everywhere they can." or this part "I don't even see what that has to do with mountain biking" or this part "if these asshats are just going to continue this crap until they run all the progress we've made into the ground". Dont worry, I wont grade you on spelling.

Originally Posted by CDtofer

Again for someone with so much time in the sport you seem not to have much experience with the rounds of land closures and access issues that mountain bikers are dealing with. It is exactly thoughts like this last one that make it easy for Sierra Club members to want to fight to keep bikers out of wilderness areas. Us grumpy old guys are and will be be lumped together with Asshats like you on bikes ripping it up 200+ miles an hour - and you will be the one that really pisses them off. You will be the one that makes them think that all bikers are not out in the woods to enjoy them but rather for speed thrills and the extreme nature of the experience. And they will keep pressing to throw us off more trails. We will be lucky to have any open space at all in a few hundred years much less a million and this kind of attitude pretty much gaurantees that all the wilderness folks will have plenty of ammunition to keep us the one that will be left.

I do see the issues with land closures MT bikers are dealing with. I could get into a whole long story about this but it all boils down to one group not wanting to share with another group. I don’t piss people off on trails and like I mentioned before, my roots are in XC so I have no hostility towards XC'ers, but I do to closed minded individuals that spew garble like this. The way I see it, I don’t have any right to tell you what to do on your time off enjoying the outdoors any more then you do. Im out there because I love riding, enjoy wilderness and having fun.

Now please, if your going to make me waist more time replying to your post, please be sure to read and complexly comprehend what you read before you post. Thank you, -A.H.

To all the Freeriders/Downhillers- the people here are not saying that you specifically are a bad person or that you specifically are the problem

I disagree with you about the fact that people here are not pointing fingers at FR'ers and Dh'ers but I completely respect the rest of your post and you bring up some great points. This is how we should all be talking together. After all we all share the same passion for biking and we all spend a lot of time together on the trails and on the same MTBR site, but for some reason we all fight like we are 2 years old on the playground.

I disagree with you about the fact that people here are not pointing fingers at FR'ers and Dh'ers but I completely respect the rest of your post and you bring up some great points. This is how we should all be talking together. After all we all share the same passion for biking and we all spend a lot of time together on the trails and on the same MTBR site, but for some reason we all fight like we are 2 years old on the playground.

I agree I don't agree with Name calling or finger pointing.

I just think that some people don't realize how powerful the enviromentalist lobbyers are. I have seen them take away many many areas do to what they consider neccessary and not just MTB trails either. For example:

6years ago an enviromentalist group in south Florida who had been lobbying the state goverment for permanent "no wake zones" on Florida water ways to protect manatees. Now there were laws in place that there was to be no speeding in waterways while the manatees were here, November - March. Well to the enviromentalists this was not good enough they wanted it their way or no way. Well the long and the short of it is that they sued the state of Florida and WON! Now there is no where in this states intercoastal waterway to Jet Ski, wake board, Ski etc etc etc. Even During the time of year when there are no manatees!

There is another story on how they shut down a local MX course for b/c they thought it MAY hurt nesting birds. No proof but a hunch on their part.

And they are doing this everywhere there are tons of trails every year that are closed to all but hikers. And unless we stand together we will lose most if not all of them. Between Enviromentalists and Litigous individuals who decide to sue bike clubs b/c they got hurt on trails we are fighting people on every front. What is not understood or possibly clearly stated that when in court these people use Videos of sports to prove their point. They don't use the nice Race vids or the Helmet cam vids. They find the worst possible video imaginable and say this is what ALLblank do. I have fought and fought people beyond what would considered reasonable. I have more examples than I would like to count. I even have a personal one were My Father who is a developer in South Florida bought Property in NC to retire on. The nature conservancy got wind of it and sued to stop him saying that he was going to overdevelop the land. There was no proof of this and he never wanted to develop anything he wanted to retire. But this is how these people think with no logic, no Rhyme or reason. My Father has lived there for 8years now in his cabin that he built for himself to retire in and still laughs at the conservancy b/c they come around asking for donations for their cause.

My point is that we need to work together to educate and fight for what we want. We need to not have a F**K OFF attitude and we need to be one. A couple bad apples can spoil the bunch and we need to work against this. We will have enough problems without any infighting.

I don't even see what that has to do with mountain biking. Yeah, it happens on two wheels and off road. But I wouldn't call them cyclists. Seems like it's just a bunch of bmx kids doing tricks off jumps..

Let me help you out, its on a bike usually on a mountain, thats why it is referred to as mountian biking. We are cyclists because we are on bicycles. We're not all kids (ex. Schley, Simmons). Most, actually I can almost guarantee 99% of prefessional freeriders have more skill at any type of biking than you do. Riding a 15ft high 4 inch wide skinny then dropping 15ft takes bike control, coordination, and skill. Feel free to post your opinions, but realize pretty much everyone is going to disagree with you except sticklers who need everything to be the way it always has been.

Bravo fellas.....you guys rock. Thanks so much for your eloquent responses. You've done much to progress our sport with your solid efforts and descriptions of what makes you passionate about riding your bikes.

By your response, I'm pretty sure that I'm at least 2x your age.... I've been riding FR'ing for 5 years seriously (Shore and Whistler) and XC riding probably as long as you've been alive and I know what happens to areas that get shut down to biking. It's a huge loss to the entire biking community and we all pay the price. If you don't think that folks building illegal trails and jumps don't impact the overall mt. biking community, you've got a rude awakening ahead of you. I guarantee that.

I'm here attempting to present the positive points of FR (there are numerous.imo) and have to deal with dumb f*cks like you guys? Give me a f'ing break!!

Next. Talking about guys that are "too old" to throw down. WTF? I've got buddy's who not only build the baddest trails you'll never see (except in photo shoots and videos), but they put me to shame on the trail. It would be pretty embarassing for you to be riding with my crew and have guys my age (and older) mop the floor with you while you're tooling around on a $5k bike that daddy bought you.

Sorry to take you two to task about this, but these forums can persuade others to think one way or the other about a particular discipline of our sport and your comments scream "idiot" when it comes to FR / DH. In particular, I get pissed because I FR at least half of my days on the bike and I'm trying to persuade the other half that we're not all a bunch of dolts. That involves maintaining existing trails, building new trail, stopping to chat with other users on the trail and working with land managers to know that we are a group to be reckoned with.

What's the saying? "Young, dumb and full of c*m." Yep, that pretty much describes you guys.

Here's my suggestion. Get involved in your local clubs. Donate money to them and help them maintain trails in your area - even if they're XC trails. Donate to IMBA and also help them when they're in your area. When you've done that, come back and talk to us.

End of story.
EBX

It does come down to personality. We've had some local riders who like to freeride, but they have gotten involved. And I hope we're trying to build stuff they want too.

A bit of background. We're in Northern Indiana - there is limited terrain, at best - to free ride on.

If there was a stunt or new trail cut without permission at one of the parks our club watches over, I could/would be personally involved in taking it down. It could be a great stunt, but we have to preserve our access, which means we have to preserve our image with the local parks departments. I don't mind trying to plan and build some good lines and runs on an advanced section of trail. Putting that same run into a beginner area, a high traffic area, or an area we're supposed to keep out of...I'll have issue.

I don't mind some really technical or advanced riding areas. I just want them were they make sense. I'd rather use natural obstacles instead of built stunts, and doubly or triply so if it's in a park setting. Putting something up like Rays in a private setting - feel free to build to your carpenter's heart's content. Putting something up at Whistler, Snowshoe or the like is great too... building it on trails in a city park in South Bend... not a great thing. Cities and parks freak out about liability, and (as seen here) riders can freak out about perception. There are people and groups who would love nothing more than to make us all roadies, or worse yet... walk. If we ride we have to be aware of how we're perceived. It only takes one incident to break the camel's back. Can you still ride freeride or downhill at Mammoth? Why? Illegal trails and liability were the reasons I heard.

I'm all for anyone who rides two wheels. I don't care if you're a roadie, a XC racer, or a Free Rider. IMBA's trying to get around the issue and build places that are sustainable, limit liability, are a lot of fun, and best part legal. I'll agree work with your local group, I'd be surprised that there are people who are happy to try and accommodate some advanced trails.

The videos that are out there, as I said above - I have not sat down and watched one, except if it was in the background of the bike shop. It's a movie, and how many of 'em are tied to reality? How to keep a jury from perceiving me as the rider in one of these movies... hopefully the jury has half a brain. How to make better movies... we write posts like these to get the producers aware, we don't buy the movies, we write in. What are the producers are interested in? Selling movies and ?

Apparently you’re the one who didn’t read the post before you got bent out of shape. Read the first post which is the one I replied to. Where in that fist post did it mention "those setting up stunts and riding off-trail" as being an asshat? It was more directed at all us Fr'ers and Dh'ers. Where is the law that says trails are not for shuttle runs? And where in the post that I replied to did it say the point of the post was "that these new bikes need dedicated places to run at"? So read before you get you panties in a twist

Millhouse,
If you read my first post here I specifically mentioned not having a problem with DH/FR and in fact said diversity is good for the sport. You were the one that got all indignant over the asshat term, you were the one that got upset that everyone was against all FR/DH riders and thus you. First, he is talking about those riders in the video. Second, he says it looks like nothing more than tricks to him, which might be cool if it were kept on a track, in other words on trail. Nowere in that quote does he use the term all FR/DH riders - he was specifically pointing out the actions of the riders in the video. If you want to get all worked up about it thats fine but you are reading something that is not there, you didnt like the asshat term and decided the OP meant you.

The OP wrote"

Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis

Seems like it's just a bunch of bmx kids doing tricks off jumps. Which might be neat I guess, if it were kept on a track. Trashing the pristine face of a mountain a million years in the making so you can do your little 2 second stunt and then mug like a idiot at the camera while talking about how this crap "helped the sport"... its atrocious

Originally Posted by milhouse

I never said that making trails wider was cool but if you were to try and say us Asshats are the problem then I would laugh in your face. I can ride down any trail here in Northern NJ and see al kinds of paths where people couldn’t ride over a obstacle like a downed tree and they made there own path around it. I can say with pretty much certainty that not to many Asshats are riding around obstacles or tearing them down. So every time I hit the trails I see evidence of XC guys altering the trails but I never once noticed a trail that was altered negatively from people going fast and large.

I agree that most often it is less experienced riders widening trails at multi-use sites. Maybe I was not clear, I was not referring to widening a trail as it happens where there is a puddle. I was speaking more of the little xtra trails that sprout off around any ledge or dropoff. Still, widening the trail by riding off-trail for new lines, ie something a little steeper, or to get to their nice little freshly built illegal stunts does happen with FR/DH riders. Again Im not saying all, but yes FR/DH riders do it also. I would totally agree that its bad no matter who does it.

Originally Posted by milhouse

"proper etiquette" now theres one I might be able to side with you on if it meant just using common sense but for some reason Im thinking your idea of proper etiquette is riding elsewhere so I will just leave it at that.

Again - here I was referring to multi-use trails. Do you feel it is ok to ride your downhill bike on one??? Crowded trails are not a great places to hold impromptu races whether by the XC crowd or the FR/DH crowd. The difference is that many of the people just getting into mountain biking have a big-travel bike that allows them to ride past their limits. Many do not know they are supposed to yield to all other trail users and the bigger bikes make it easy to go faster which only exacerbate the the problem. I was simply stating use the right bike for the right place. Yielding to other users is not just common-sense, it is required.

Originally Posted by milhouse

I do see the issues with land closures MT bikers are dealing with. I could get into a whole long story about this but it all boils down to one group not wanting to share with another group. I don’t piss people off on trails and like I mentioned before, my roots are in XC so I have no hostility towards XC'ers, but I do to closed minded individuals that spew garble like this. The way I see it, I don’t have any right to tell you what to do on your time off enjoying the outdoors any more then you do. Im out there because I love riding, enjoy wilderness and having fun.

I dont understand what you mean by one group not wanting to share. The point of this post was not about XC vs FR/DH but all bikers together vs non-bikers. Nobody told you how you could have fun, nobody said your way of riding was not acceptable. The negative comments were ALL directed to those that were off-trail or in illegal areas. Again, you felt persecuted here for some reason. My comment about you not getting it stemmed from some of your comments such about ripping it up at 200+ miles an hour. Now, if as you say you are not pissing anybody off (and you are not off-trail) than I have nothing against you or how you ride. If you are ripping it up in a park like Diablo, Whistler or on private land or even on a multi-use trail with no-one around then yes, you are entitled to have fun however you see fit.

Again I was calling for all mountainbikers, whether FR/DH or SS or XC to be better ambassadors of the sport - nowhere in my post did I mention limiting any one faction, I dont know where you got that from. You still never addressed riding off-trail and whether you thought that was OK...it still seems like you are skirting around this issue.

Well, I just watched "Unchained - New World Disorder 6", and I can honestly say that aside from being simultaneously lame, melodramatic, and trashy, it made an impact. For the first time in 20 years of being a Mountain Biker & MTB access activist, I completely understand the reaction folks like the Sierra Club are having, wanting to ban bikes everywhere they can.

I don't even see what that has to do with mountain biking. Yeah, it happens on two wheels and off road. But I wouldn't call them cyclists. Seems like it's just a bunch of bmx kids doing tricks off jumps. Which might be neat I guess, if it were kept on a track. Trashing the pristine face of a mountain a million years in the making so you can do your little 2 second stunt and then mug like a idiot at the camera while talking about how this crap "helped the sport"... its atrocious. That was definitely a perspective changing hour.

I've spent 2/3 of my life in this sport. If this is the driection this sport is going to go, if these asshats are just going to continue this crap until they run all the progress we've made into the ground, then the sooner it's over with the better.

Do you have sh1t for brains? Every single "bmx kid" in that video has more talent than all pro XC riders in the world. What is the talent in sitting in the saddle for hrs with a sub 26lbs bike. I dont get it. All of those riders featured in that video have commited their lives to the sport and have paid with it for broken bones and serious injuries. The sport or DH and FR mtb is not just about getting down the mountain as fast as possible, or dropping off of cliffs. It's about having fun with your friends and riding hard not stupid. These riders are role models to some of us, and to have you talk about them like they are the last trash, who the **** do you think you are? Of course you are granted your own oppinion, but in thise case you are just terribly wrong. Of course their 2 second stunt helps the sport. Everytime a ******** like you sees it, they get pissed off, and we feed off the anger of stupid pricks like you.

"QUOTE"Every single "bmx kid" in that video has more talent than all pro XC riders in the world. What is the talent in sitting in the saddle for hrs with a sub 26lbs bike. I dont get it. All of those riders featured in that video have commited their lives to the sport and have paid with it for broken bones and serious injuries."QUOTE"
Really?? I have to disagree.I am both a FRer and a XC rider and I can tell you it takes time,training and, yes, talent,even broken bones and serious injury to XC ride.There are a qutie a few DH/FR's I ride with that wil never do XC rides due to the climbs..they are tough and it can make or break a ride. It had taken me years to be able to do a fast technical climb..so maybe you don't get it? And that is half the problem here is 2 or more different styles of riding that just dont GET each other.I can see the good and the bad from both sides and I am glad for that .....but turing it in to a who's better debate wont help anything....loosing access to the trails should be the one thing we can all agree we dont want to have happen. I just think it's a waste of energy when debates like this get so out of hand and responses can't be thought out a bit more instead of such narrow minded answers that just seem to be there to piss the other person off. K

Do you have sh1t for brains? Every single "bmx kid" in that video has more talent than all pro XC riders in the world. What is the talent in sitting in the saddle for hrs with a sub 26lbs bike. I dont get it. All of those riders featured in that video have commited their lives to the sport and have paid with it for broken bones and serious injuries. The sport or DH and FR mtb is not just about getting down the mountain as fast as possible, or dropping off of cliffs. It's about having fun with your friends and riding hard not stupid. These riders are role models to some of us, and to have you talk about them like they are the last trash, who the **** do you think you are? Of course you are granted your own oppinion, but in thise case you are just terribly wrong. Of course their 2 second stunt helps the sport. Everytime a ******** like you sees it, they get pissed off, and we feed off the anger of stupid pricks like you.