I seriously don't like the way Moody flip-flops between "I'm a regular jailkeeper so an investigation wouldn't have worked" and "with the wording of my PM it's possible an investigation would go through" and back...

Looks like scum that is unsure about how to proceed, but in where it's clear lynching Dim would be to his advantage. If we have more than 1 scum, I think it's the pair Moody+Jim.

I am going to vote for jimbobmacdoodle, because I believe he does not have a town win condition, unless everyone wants to force an extension so we can wait for Madge. She said she would be back on Thursday.

This is mainly because as mod, I've always been a proponent of "Deadline=Extension", because if there's a tie the players need more time to discuss it, and from all the solutions of ties this is my favorite, so I like making use of it.

But I'm always the guy complaining about long deadlines and days dragging on forever, so it's ironic I want to have extensions when they're available...

In this case I want to hear what Madge has to say about this.

And, um, mpolo? He has been playing really safe this day, and sparsely. We have bessie's word that he's still town, but if he was recruited I don't know how can bessie know he's still town.

I suppose I should be thankful for the extension, given that a) I mistakenly thought it was on Thursday, and b) bessie seemed to be prepared to lynch me.

I honestly am not sure I've got much more to add that hasn't already been said. Maybe we can get a headscarf on tomorrow by working out most likely teammates for scum!dimochka or scum!me? To that end, as I don't have the ability to reread due to time and phone posting, here are some questions for people:

@Bessie - echoing what Vytron said a bit, I still don't know why you are so sure of mpolo. Beyond his chat and in thread behaviour, do you have any reason to believe him safe (e.g. something you know about the setup you haven't revealed)? Also, what do you think re. moody's latest belief re. cop results on jailed players?

@Vytron - if you had to kill someone tonight, and it couldn't be me or Dimochka, who would it be and why?

@moody7277 - same question as to Vytron, but for your jail action.

@Madge - what are your opinions on who is scum? Do you agree with moody re. not using his jailing ability tonight?

For the record, my suggestion would probably be either Bessie or mpolo to protect them (probably Bessie, since she has not claimed an active power).

@mpolo - do you agree with Bessie? If she is wrong about me, what do you think is the next most likely case?

I should have a short amount of time tomorrow to answer any questions directed at me.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Vytron - if you had to kill someone tonight, and it couldn't be me or Dimochka, who would it be and why?

Guess what? I'm not going to answer this question.

If we're against a mafia (and we still don't know if that's the case) there's a point at which their optimal play is to kill me. If I announce that I'm going to kill some player, and that player is from the mafia, maybe they can do something to stop the kill, and kill me. So it's better that my target remains secret.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:why did I kill SDK? Or do you believe I lied about that?

Because you thought SDK was from some other scum-faction?

And, anyway, you could have been pro-town independent when you targeted SDK. It's not like we don't trust you about that. What happens is that we find odd the sudden change to town. It's more likely you remained independent and were given some second goal to achieve, or something.

Plus, you should have died yesterday and I still don't know why were you jailed (even though it was explained).

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I honestly don't know how you are absolutely certain re. mpolo not being a recruit, unless of course you have other information you haven't revealed,

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Bessie - echoing what Vytron said a bit, I still don't know why you are so sure of mpolo. Beyond his chat and in thread behaviour, do you have any reason to believe him safe (e.g. something you know about the setup you haven't revealed)? Also, what do you think re. moody's latest belief re. cop results on jailed players?

First of all, I don’t like the way you’ve been fishing for my role. Does it matter? Is there any setup where mpolo and I can both be scum? We would have to both start D1 as scum and recruit dimochka, or dimochka would have to recruit me N1 and mpolo N2. That’s three or four mafia (and two independents) on D1. OK, possible, but not likely.

For your second question, I don’t know that DJ used the strict mafiascum definition of jailkeeper or cop. I don’t see any reason for moody to lie unless he is your scum partner. So possibly one of you recruited the other. I don’t see dimochka as scum on D2 because of his defense of me, but I do have some suspicion of him for pushing to break the tie on D3, when mpolo and I both said we would probably vote for jimbob.

Does anyone think we have two scum groups? I’ve been considering the idea of two scum groups, but I don’t think it works out for game balance, unless recruit and mafia kill are limited (odd/even nights, single shot, etc). And I don’t think Seward and Jayne work together for flavor.

Hmm, I just looked up Hunter on Mafiascum, and it redirected to Lyncher, and it’s not quite what jimbob claimed. So jimbob, it doesn’t look like you claimed a standard role, so why should the jailkeeper be standard? I will need to think about this Lyncher role a little.

Sorry, that wasn't intended to be role fishing, though I can see how it might have looked like it. I am 99% certain you are not scum, because I consider it a really odd/unbalanced setup if you are. However, in the different plausible setups, I could see mpolo being a possible recruit, with only your word that he isn't. For what it's worth, I suspect you have a passive or possibly one off ability.

I agree that my role is non-standard (and that therefore moody's might be as well), though it bears a passing resemblance to the lyncher role, if my target is killed by someone else. Maybe DJ decided to make a more interesting independent role? I don't think different systems agree on a standard definition of "Hunter" anyway, since I played a real life werewolf game once as a hunter, where I got to kill one person when I died (I think that might also be known as "Vengeful Townie" or similar). Anyway, might a "Hunter" be different to a "Huntsman"?

Wow, Thanksgiving really got in the way there. I will try to get something more this evening or tomorrow morning. My tendency is to want to lynch jimbob. But did moody flip-flop again as to whether dimochka could have got a result through the jailing? (I think he's gone back and forth a couple of times, and I don't have time to look for that.)

As things stand, at this point in the game, I do not believe I can be recruited (explanation will have to wait, though), so my watcher power is probably more useful than jailing me, but I don't really have a say in what moody does.

@vytron's snarky post - I said in my first pot this game day i protected dimochka so there, learn to read.

the point about moody being scum roleblocker rather than jailer is interesting because now suddenly he's pretty muh a roleblocker - but the thing I don't get about that is if he is scum roleblocker why have there been so few kills? My personal theory was I lived through N1 because I was jailed and thus protected from the kill, not sure if scum would deign to withhold a kill to secfure someone's claim like that, would they?

I think there's a lot of beenfit to lynching Dim - I am more incfllined to believe moody's claim, which makes dim's result look suspicious, and if we jail jim tonight and lynch him tomorrow if dim comes up town, then we're good..... but that would meam we're in a game iwth no cop wihih is weird, which maks me inclined to beliee dim on that basis.

I think we need a jail tonight.

I think given everything I'd rather test dim's cop result by lynching jim than by lynching dim.

Madge wrote:the point about moody being scum roleblocker rather than jailer is interesting because now suddenly he's pretty muh a roleblocker - but the thing I don't get about that is if he is scum roleblocker why have there been so few kills? My personal theory was I lived through N1 because I was jailed and thus protected from the kill, not sure if scum would deign to withhold a kill to secfure someone's claim like that, would they?

It's possible the game didn't have a proper mafia team to begin with, so after getting rid of the cult recruiter (Dracula) and the SK, I'm the only player remaining with kill powers.

Maybe we can solve the game with patience, as long as Jim is scum we should be fine. Otherwise Dim can be naive or insane and it's kind of useless (in this scenario it's possible bessie and mpolo are mafia buddies that exist.)

We certainly know that moody visited Madge on N1. However, he did not protect her from anything, because he was the only one who visited him. (Watch result)

However, moody's abilities seem to have been vindicated on N2, when his claimed jailing seems to have blocked Vytron's kill. We have no evidence as to whether it was also a protection, though.

Flavor logic supports the idea of a jailer. (Though, flavor also makes this jailing fairly useless, as Dracula turned into mist and entered Renfield's cell, killing him, despite his being "jailed". That said, the mafia version is probably a real jailer.)

Dimochka claims a result despite having been jailed. This is troubling. In general, I would say that moody has looked scummier than dimochka, except in this point. However, the result was claimed after moody revealed his jail target, which also has a certain weirdness. Presumably dimochka knew this, so it raises more questions.

I still fear that jimbob has an anti-town goal, though it is not out of the question that he might have changed to pro-town as he claimed to have done.

I have to disagree with that vote mpolo! I must say that I didn't know that jailers typically block cop results, so it's possible that scum!dimochka didn't realise this either and fake claimed, based on the belief that a successful lynch of me could all but win scum the game. Moody has made it clear that he doesn't plan on jailing anyone tonight. This means that with recruiting scum we could easily be at m/lylo, depending on whether scum keep powers. Lynching me could easily lose us the game. If you still think I have an anti-town agenda, it's much less likely to be an immediate threat from any angle I can think of, so let's get the dimochka flip first and go from there. If he flips scum as I expect, we'll be in a much better position to judge possible threats.

To add, for those concerned I am a recruiter, and as said earlier, moody is the only person it makes sense to be a possible teammate, so Vytron is able to kill me and prevent a win for scum tonight. You'll then have my flip. If the game continues, you should then try to figure out who I might have recruited. There are too many bad possibilities the other way round as I see it.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I have to disagree with that vote mpolo! I must say that I didn't know that jailers typically block cop results, so it's possible that scum!dimochka didn't realise this either and fake claimed, based on the belief that a successful lynch of me could all but win scum the game. Moody has made it clear that he doesn't plan on jailing anyone tonight. This means that with recruiting scum we could easily be at m/lylo, depending on whether scum keep powers. Lynching me could easily lose us the game. If you still think I have an anti-town agenda, it's much less likely to be an immediate threat from any angle I can think of, so let's get the dimochka flip first and go from there. If he flips scum as I expect, we'll be in a much better position to judge possible threats.

Now you're going for theories that don't make sense. To disprove the "forgot and fake claimed" theory above:Top of my post from early D3:

dimochka wrote:Vote Jimbob

I copped Jimbob, and he is both undead and scum. The reason I wanted to figure out what moody did BEFORE I claimed was to see if Jimbob would have been able to recruit. Based on everything we see so far, he was not. So I think there is a good chance that the game will be over upon hammer.

Bottom of the same post:

dimochka wrote:EBWOP: I am somewhat surprised that my cop still went through even with the jailing. Moody - from the description on your char, would it makes sense?

So I did not forget anything. I am still surprised that my result went through. But to say that I forgot is quite a stretch.

Also Jim - I'm going to take everything you just said about whom to lynch first and propose the exact opposite, because from my point of view it makes just as much sense. And regarding you possibly being a recruiter - we don't know that you have a scummate. I already said I think it's more likely that if you are scum then you are the last one.

As I said before (I think I did?), the right play for town currently in my opinion is lynch jimbob, jail me, vig moody, and lynch me if we haven't won (which I seriously doubt). Assuming that for whatever reason mpolo (and possibly bessie) cannot be recruited, I'm thinking that madge should protect vytron. If town hasn't lied to confuse scum, that will give 3 townies to figure out the rest of the game. And I don't expect us to need to get nearly this far.

I will try to be on again before deadline but not 100% sure I'll make it.

If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".

@Jim: yeah, no. It's more likely that Moody and you are scumbuddies and that that's why he protected you.

dimochka wrote:As I said before (I think I did?), the right play for town currently in my opinion is lynch jimbob, jail me, vig moody, and lynch me if we haven't won (which I seriously doubt)

You keep bringing this up. As I said, scum!moody will not let me kill him, and we don't want town!moody to die anyway, so we need another plan.

Also, it doesn't make sense to jail you, because what we want is another result from you. I'm still not sure what to do if Jim flips town, though, that'd confirm a redirector, unless you are scum (I really believe you're town because, despite all the game weirdness, the most bizarre thing of it all would be a copless game).

Finally, I don't like all the scare tactics of "we could be at LYLO/MYLO if recrtuts(sp)!" I refuse to believe that after lynching correctly every time, and even killing correctly, we're in any danger. That sounds like desperate attempts to lead us astray.

Following Lucy and Lord Godalming's tragic deaths, the group was conflicted. They had to be close. They just had to! Two vampires dead! How many more could there be?

Discussion almost immediately turned to two main suspects. The shadows known as Jimbobmacdoodle and Dimochka. Jimbob claimed that in reality they were a woman, one Jayne Wetherby. She had come to kill Dracula, but now that he was dead she was simply harmless, and definitely a member of the living. Dimochka claimed himself to be a Detective from Scotland Yard named Cotford (neither attempts to ascertain or proffers were ever made regarding his first name), who, upon discovering Dracula, had followed the group here in order to stop him.

But the group was distrusting of these two. They didn't know any Jayne Wetherby. They didn't know any Cotford. Were these people who they said they were? If so, were they telling the truth?

Cotford claimed that he had done an investigation, and that it was on the misty form known as Jimbob. His conclusion: he didn't know if they were who they claimed to be in terms of identity, but they were certainly, without a doubt, a vampire. But some, Jimbob, notably, cast aspersions on his claim. They weren't entirely sure if this claimed investigator panned out. Some things seemed suspicious.

But ultimately, suspicion of this strange claimed woman trumped any towards the police. And so, turning on one they'd suspected for a while now, the group decided it was Jimbob who they did not trust.

Jimbob backed away.

"Wait," he said. "Not me. I am innocent. I am a member of the living! Can't you see! He's so obviously lying! I was trapped in a room the other night! How could he have possibly gotten a result on me? Leave me be!"

"You're a vampire!" Cotford accused, pointing a finger as the group encircled the target, holding Eucharists, garlic, and stakes.

"You lie!" retorted Jimbob once more.

"If so," said another, raising a stake. "Unfortunately there is but only one way to find that out".

"Never!" replied the figure Jimbob. "I will not submit! And you will not leave here alive!"

And suddenly, like that, the mist began to clear. And as it cleared the shadow that was Jimbob slowly came into focus.

It was a horrible site. The figure before you, first of all, was definitely not a woman. He was tall and thin, and rigid, with his arms as straight as sticks at his side. They were long, curved, and viciously claw-like. Adorned in a moldy black coat, he was bald, and his skin was a clammy, blotchy white. His ears were pointed, like a bat, and his eyes were sunken and stared out at the group in the most disturbing manner. And from his mouth protruded the most horrible, crooked, long pointed fangs. He was truly a monster. Without doubt, a vampire.

"Yes," Orlok hissed. It was a low, creepy sort of hiss. But then it got louder. "Yes! I am Orlok! The true master of the undead! The true lord of the Nosferatu!"

He pointed at Vytron. "You," he hissed.

"Me?" Vytron responded, his voice now very clearly inflected with the Texan accent of the group's good Texan friend, Quincey Morris.

"Yes, you," he laughed a dry, hoarse laughter. "You think you killed Dracula! You think you had the power to kill an undead! Fool! I killed Dracula! It was I! There can only be one lord of the Nosferatu! That pretender had no right to the claim. It is rightfully mine".

"Well look at where you stand now," Jonathan Harker retorted. "Yes," Mina, his wife, added, stepping forward. "Your compatriots are gone! We have taken them down! Look around you! Your power in life is gone! All that you have to rule is mold, dust, and decay!"

"Not for long," Orlok replied. He eyed Mina, and began to move closer toward her. "As Dracula claimed the girl Lucy, so shall I claim new blood. None can stand in the way of those who have vanquished death itself! All who resist me shall soon by my servants! And it starts here!"

Orlok lunged, his clawlike hand outstretched for Mina's throat, his mouth open in a terrifying screen, a gaping black hole flanked with horrible fangs. But Jonathan, thinking fast, pushed his wife out of the way and stood between her and the beast. The beast would not do to his wife what happened to Mina!

Orlok turned on Jonathan Harker, fully intent to strike him down. But then he let out a cry of agony. Seward had taken the opportunity to thrust a stake at him from behind. It pierced his chest, the tip emerging from his front. With the momentary halt, Jonathan took the opportunity to pierce him again, through the front. Mina brushed past her husband, thrusting a clove of garlic into the open mouth. Orlok began to choke, blisters appeared on his pale lips. Van Helsing came forward and pressed a Eucharist to his forehead. Smoke erupted from the skin and it began to burn as Orlok shook violently. Finally, Quincey Morris, his bowie knife bared, went in for the final touch, severing the head from this corpselike monster.

Almost as if Orlok's presence had delayed the dawn, at this very moment a beam of sun emerged from behind a distant mountain, finding its way through one of the castle's many windows, illuminating Orlok and the group in the fine golden light of the early dawn. Orlok's body continued to smoke before, suddenly, it simply degraded into a cloud of dust, lingering in the air.

"It is done," Van Helsing remarked with somberness. "The Undead are finally gone at last".

Jimbobmacdoodle is Dead. He was Count Orlok, leader of the Undead. As leader of the Undead, Orlok had the power, once per night, to bite any player and convert them to being a member of the Undead.However, Orlok was not always the Master of the Undead; Dracula was first. Orlok was an Usurper. His goal was to find Dracula, and to kill him. If Dracula died he would take his place as leader of the Undead.(mod note: Vytron did kill SDK too. We considered his and Jimbob's targeting SDK to be simultaneous).

Suddenly, though, the floor began to shake. Dust began to pour down from the rafters, and bricks in the wall began to be dislodged.

"What's happening?" someone asked?

"I think it is the power of the vampire," Van Helsing answered. "Only it was keeping this castle up, I think. Now that it is gone, this old ruin is beginning to collapse. We are needing to get out of here! Right now!

With that said, and the fog gone, the remaining Living scurried towards the front door of the castle. It was a huge door, stuck by time, and no man could open it. However, with the strength of five men (and Mina) slowly, slowly, they made progress, as the mortar around them crumbled and the stones of the ancient fortification came crashing down, missing them by inches.

But soon enough, the door was opened wide enough that they were able to fit through, and quickly they made their escape.

The members of the Living ran far from the castle before they permitted themselves to turn back. When they did, they saw it. The old ruin, bathed in the golden glow of the early dawn. As they watched the turrets and the towers collapsed in on each other. Soon there was nothing left but a pile of old stone sitting atop a high ledge. The area which had so long played den to the nastiest and most unholy creature which the world had ever seen was, finally, no more.

"Well," Van Helsing concluded. "I think it is safe to say that we have done our part. They may not believe us, but I think it is needless to say that we will never forget what we've done here.

Well done town! I wish I'd survived longer, and based on spoilers I might have had a chance, but jimbob needed a target for everyone's suspicions and he found me slightly dangerous since I'd proposed the possibility of characters outside the main Dracula canon. It was still a great setup, and thanks Djehutynakht and Suzaku for running the game.

Anyway, great flavor, great setup and great game DJ! I think we did a perfect game as town. I believed for a long while that Jim was town and indeed truthful, but in the end his biggest mistake might have been to claim truthfully to have killed Dracula.

I love being vigilante, specially when I target scum every time. I can't believe the game could have been over N2 if Moody didn't save Jim!

Madge wrote:Great game, great fun! So the undead has no killing power then? So completely shocked I truthfully claimed doctor d1 and not only didn't get recruited but survived to the end of the game...

You were the obvious target, but there was so much speculation about cults (and so much focus on you anyway) that I opted not to recruit you. I expected to live a couple more Days though...

Regarding the jail keeper:I'm kind of surprised this caused so much kerfuffle.Canonically a jail keep action roleblocks the target and simultaneously protects them. It doesn't stop other (non-harmful) actions targeting the jailed player. The mafiawiki page even lists a version that blocks targeting as a variation.