So, I have recently had problems with drugs and depression but have been coming out of it and am finding peace in our Orthodox faith. I've been trying my best to give up any evil influences in my life. Now, I'm a musician. I've been playing guitar for about 5-6 years. Recently, I screwed over my best friend because I'd ditch band practice to go smoke pot or do whatever and so he kicked me out. I was only in temporarily because I was needed to play bass for one show. However, he came to my house yesterday with the drummer after not seeing me for about a month and we hugged it out and everything, but now he really wants me back in the band since I'm getting clean and because he can't find anyone that mends with the band as good as I do. However, my priest, an Archimandrite who I have been getting spiritual advice from for over a year and whom I met over Facebook, is telling me that it is a bad idea to rejoin the band because rock music is not godly and is evil. When I told my friend this, and I did so respectively, he kept telling me how it would be a good outlet because the band is about doing things differently than most people. The band isn't about drugs, sex, etc. It's about putting our emotions into music and using music as an extension of our beings to create something positive.

I'm torn as to what to do. My friend really needs me and is looking out for my best interest, and yet my priest tells me that there is only one way to approach this in a godly manner (though, he did say to follow my heart). I need advice from you guys.

Thank you,

-TC

« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 04:30:23 PM by TristanCross »

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"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "— St. John Chrysostom

It's a matter of spiritual discernment. Rock music is not necessarily evil in itself, but it will include a sentimental baggage (aggression, rebellion), and other carnal emotions that fall short of the goal of Orthodoxy, which is to free man from all sentimentality, purify him from any remnant or suggestion of imperfection, and make him a spiritual person.

What in the world am I talking about? Well, music has to reflect our state of the soul and our highest aspirations. The music of The Church is (pure) Byzantine music. If you want to get a taste of what true, beautiful, contrite, spiritual music sounds like that would be Byzantine music that God has developed through the deified Saints and the Angels. It may sound boring at first, but it really is beautiful, transcendent and also peaceful, balanced.

If you want to read about Orthodoxy and art, I suggest the author Photios Kontoglou:

I would say that we have to be careful on how much of something we consume. I love Rock music, although I don't usually like heavy metal. But I try not to listen to it too much, because at times it can have an effect on your mood.

The same could be applied to other types of music as well. More recently I've been listening to Dubstep, and most recently to "Traditional Pop", Swing, Jazz & generally anything prior to the 1950s, especially Sinatra, Martin, Crosby & others.

If you're depressed, don't listen to something depressing or angry. You can try some of the Depression Era music which was often used to lift people up. Apparently it's been making a comeback in some parts of the world because of economic troubles, and people have "rediscovered" it.

One of the best things to listen to though is of course, any type of Orthodox Chant and hymns.

Of course, if you want to play music and be in a band, you could change it up a bit. Many of the best rock musicians out there can play different types of rock music, and some do branch into other genres as well.

Nope. The music of the Church is whatever music the Church employs... including Georgian, Znamenny, modern Russian polyphony, etc.

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Quote

When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.

- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Nope. The music of the Church is whatever music the Church employs... including Georgian, Znamenny, modern Russian polyphony, etc.

What Saints composed those and adopted them officially as music of the Church?

I don't know. It doesn't matter. Plenty of saints have sung in these modes, that's for sure.

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Quote

When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.

- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

I don't know. It doesn't matter. Plenty of saints have sung in these modes, that's for sure.

What do you mean you don't know, it doesn't matter? That's silly and rude.

Byzantine is the only music of The Church and it has eight modes. It sounds a bit different according to where it is sung, Romania, Greece, but polyphony and folk elements are to be avoided as they are secular in origin, not divinely inspired. As far as authentic Byz music has ever got is using two voices in a very particular way.

I don't know. It doesn't matter. Plenty of saints have sung in these modes, that's for sure.

What do you mean you don't know, it doesn't matter? That's silly and rude.

It doesn't matter whether known saints composed in these modes or not. By your reasoning, we should purge the countless hymns and settings which were composed anonymously.

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Byzantine is the only music of The Church

Obviously you are wrong, and repeating the same thing will not make you any less wrong.

Quote

and it has eight modes.

Eight modes derived from secular ancient Greek music theory.

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Quote

When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.

- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

I don't know. It doesn't matter. Plenty of saints have sung in these modes, that's for sure.

What do you mean you don't know, it doesn't matter? That's silly and rude.

Byzantine is the only music of The Church and it has eight modes. It sounds a bit different according to where it is sung, Romania, Greece, but polyphony and folk elements are to be avoided as they are secular in origin, not divinely inspired. As far as authentic Byz music has ever got is using two voices in a very particular way.

How about the famous hymn Agni Parthene? It isn't "Byzantine" (it is Byzantine in style & inspiration, but isn't proper Byzantine as typically done) as you say, yet it was composed by a saint (St. Nektarios of Aegina).

You are so wrong in your assumption. There isn't an official chant of the church, just as there isn't a "holy language" of the church. If you learn the history of your church you'd learn this.

Byzantine was just the style used in Hagia Sophia and eventually spread to other parts of the empire. However it was never "the" chant, nor was it the official style. In fact, the style of Byzantine we have today is a much evolved and changed form of the original.

We have hundreds of hymns and melodies composed by people we don't know the names of. St. Romanos and others are just a few we know the names of, and they didn't even compose the majority of our hymns.

I don't know. It doesn't matter. Plenty of saints have sung in these modes, that's for sure.

What do you mean you don't know, it doesn't matter? That's silly and rude.

Byzantine is the only music of The Church and it has eight modes. It sounds a bit different according to where it is sung, Romania, Greece, but polyphony and folk elements are to be avoided as they are secular in origin, not divinely inspired. As far as authentic Byz music has ever got is using two voices in a very particular way.

How about the famous hymn Agni Parthene? It isn't "Byzantine" (it is Byzantine in style & inspiration, but isn't proper Byzantine as typically done) as you say, yet it was composed by a saint (St. Nektarios of Aegina).

You are so wrong in your assumption. There isn't an official chant of the church, just as there isn't a "holy language" of the church. If you learn the history of your church you'd learn this.

Byzantine was just the style used in Hagia Sophia and eventually spread to other parts of the empire. However it was never "the" chant, nor was it the official style. In fact, the style of Byzantine we have today is a much evolved and changed form of the original.

We have hundreds of hymns and melodies composed by people we don't know the names of. St. Romanos and others are just a few we know the names of, and they didn't even compose the majority of our hymns.

So, why do they use and develop only Byzantine music on Mount Athos, regardless of ethnicity? What we are saying here is that there aren't any rules, anything goes really.

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "— St. John Chrysostom

I don't know. It doesn't matter. Plenty of saints have sung in these modes, that's for sure.

What do you mean you don't know, it doesn't matter? That's silly and rude.

Byzantine is the only music of The Church and it has eight modes. It sounds a bit different according to where it is sung, Romania, Greece, but polyphony and folk elements are to be avoided as they are secular in origin, not divinely inspired. As far as authentic Byz music has ever got is using two voices in a very particular way.

How about the famous hymn Agni Parthene? It isn't "Byzantine" (it is Byzantine in style & inspiration, but isn't proper Byzantine as typically done) as you say, yet it was composed by a saint (St. Nektarios of Aegina).

You are so wrong in your assumption. There isn't an official chant of the church, just as there isn't a "holy language" of the church. If you learn the history of your church you'd learn this.

Byzantine was just the style used in Hagia Sophia and eventually spread to other parts of the empire. However it was never "the" chant, nor was it the official style. In fact, the style of Byzantine we have today is a much evolved and changed form of the original.

We have hundreds of hymns and melodies composed by people we don't know the names of. St. Romanos and others are just a few we know the names of, and they didn't even compose the majority of our hymns.

So, why do they use and develop only Byzantine music on Mount Athos, regardless of ethnicity? What we are saying here is that there aren't any rules, anything goes really.

Mount Athos is in Greece. Does Mount Athos represent all of Orthodoxy, or set the rule for all Orthodox Churches? I think not. Mount Athos uses Byzantine Time, does that mean we should also, or that Byzantine Time is more holy than regular time?

You are falling into the "slippery slope" fallacy here. Just because we are saying Byzantine isn't the only "holy chant" doesn't automatically mean we can start using instruments and "contemporary" worship in our services.

In Greece, liturgy is in ancient Greek. Does that mean we should all have our services in ancient Greek? Or that ancient Greek is more holy than modern Greek? Certainly not! We aren't Roman Catholics, we don't believe in sacred languages. Wherever Orthodoxy is taken, there the services are always translated into the vernacular language (which ancient Greek originally was). In the same realm, wherever Orthodoxy is taken, the people there eventually form their own style of chanting, which may or may not be similar to Byzantine Chant. Again, in the same realm, wherever Orthodoxy is taken, the people eventually form their own unique & traditional architectural style. It may or may not reflect 14th & 15th Century Byzantine architecture, but it is nonetheless holy.

Our Church isn't the Byzantine Empire frozen in the 1400s. It is a living and growing tradition.

As I'm in the profession of architecture, I can draw an analogy here. Traditional and vernacular architecture (i would argue) is the best and most beautiful form of architecture. However, we aren't frozen or bound to the classical tradition of ancient Greece, or ancient Rome. We have the ability and the duty to expand the classical & traditional language. However, that doesn't mean we have permission to do as the modernist architects did 100 years ago and completely throw out tradition and start an architectural free-for-all. Whether its Classical Greek, Classical Roman, Romanesque, Byzantine, Neo-Byzantine, Neo-Classical, Baroque, or Vernacular it's all beautiful and the language can and has expanded without being completely thrown open.

I'm sure there are 500 other Orthodox Archimandrites who are fine with rock music.

Plus...

Are we talking an Archimandrite,

Or an Archimandrite?

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Mount Athos is in Greece. Does Mount Athos represent all of Orthodoxy, or set the rule for all Orthodox Churches? I think not. Mount Athos uses Byzantine Time, does that mean we should also, or that Byzantine Time is more holy than regular time?

You are falling into the "slippery slope" fallacy here. Just because we are saying Byzantine isn't the only "holy chant" doesn't automatically mean we can start using instruments and "contemporary" worship in our services.

In Greece, liturgy is in ancient Greek. Does that mean we should all have our services in ancient Greek? Or that ancient Greek is more holy than modern Greek? Certainly not! We aren't Roman Catholics, we don't believe in sacred languages. Wherever Orthodoxy is taken, there the services are always translated into the vernacular language (which ancient Greek originally was). In the same realm, wherever Orthodoxy is taken, the people there eventually form their own style of chanting, which may or may not be similar to Byzantine Chant. Again, in the same realm, wherever Orthodoxy is taken, the people eventually form their own unique & traditional architectural style. It may or may not reflect 14th & 15th Century Byzantine architecture, but it is nonetheless holy.

Our Church isn't the Byzantine Empire frozen in the 1400s. It is a living and growing tradition.

As I'm in the profession of architecture, I can draw an analogy here. Traditional and vernacular architecture (i would argue) is the best and most beautiful form of architecture. However, we aren't frozen or bound to the classical tradition of ancient Greece, or ancient Rome. We have the ability and the duty to expand the classical & traditional language. However, that doesn't mean we have permission to do as the modernist architects did 100 years ago and completely throw out tradition and start an architectural free-for-all. Whether its Classical Greek, Classical Roman, Romanesque, Byzantine, Neo-Byzantine, Neo-Classical, Baroque, or Vernacular it's all beautiful and the language can and has expanded without being completely thrown open.

Without getting into a complex discussion about music, I can guarantee that Byzantine music is Holy and God inspired, and it is perfect for our Salvation and Edification. Really, I am not going to going to make an absolute out of Byzantine music, as an all-encompassing phenomenon, but I will say that in particular, in itself, Byzantine music is a divine product. If you know of any other music that equals it, it's up to you, not going to disagree, though never heard of, nor seen practised myself in any place of worship that is serious about what they are doing. (not implying that those who don't use it, aren't serious, just never saw, nor heard of it myself) So, to me, you'd be on your own, and I could never agree with you, be it only because I don't know. Yet, what I do know, is enough for the purpose of Salvation.

Mount Athos uses Byzantine music because The Greek Church believes Byzantine music is Holy music, not because Greek Byzantine music in particular is Holy. Byzantine music is universal.

They are not derived at all. In fact, the modes are so different both in scale construction and ethos (most importantly, which is derived from the music of the synagogue) that Byzantine music is something altogether different. The only reason it can be said that it was derived from Greek scales is that God wanted to not seem that He is alienating people from their technical skills and because there is some sort of correlation, in appearance, not in principle, which He had planned, but not at all intended to mean that the music in itself has anything to do with Ancient Greek music, in principle. The whole point of Byzantine music is to be a revelation of God, The Kingdom of Heaven, in perfect accord with the Spirit of The Gospel, and the whole of our Faith.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I like some Byzantine music (it's generally a bit stuffy for my tastes, but I've heard some beautiful hymns), but my church doesn't use it, because we have our own tradition. Will my church go to hell?

It's more like heaven will be torment to you, because there is nothing but Byzantine music there. When people talk about the "River of Fire" it's really a metaphor for an endless ison in tone 1.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 12:29:41 PM by Iconodule »

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Quote

When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.

- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

I like some Byzantine music (it's generally a bit stuffy for my tastes, but I've heard some beautiful hymns), but my church doesn't use it, because we have our own tradition. Will my church go to hell?

God loves Russian "westernized" style chanting too, judging by the countless saints who have only known it.

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Quote

When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.

- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

So, I have recently had problems with drugs and depression but have been coming out of it and am finding peace in our Orthodox faith. I've been trying my best to give up any evil influences in my life. Now, I'm a musician. I've been playing guitar for about 5-6 years. Recently, I screwed over my best friend because I'd ditch band practice to go smoke pot or do whatever and so he kicked me out. I was only in temporarily because I was needed to play bass for one show. However, he came to my house yesterday with the drummer after not seeing me for about a month and we hugged it out and everything, but now he really wants me back in the band since I'm getting clean and because he can't find anyone that mends with the band as good as I do. However, my priest, an Archimandrite who I have been getting spiritual advice from for over a year and whom I met over Facebook, is telling me that it is a bad idea to rejoin the band because rock music is not godly and is evil. When I told my friend this, and I did so respectively, he kept telling me how it would be a good outlet because the band is about doing things differently than most people. The band isn't about drugs, sex, etc. It's about putting our emotions into music and using music as an extension of our beings to create something positive.

I'm torn as to what to do. My friend really needs me and is looking out for my best interest, and yet my priest tells me that there is only one way to approach this in a godly manner (though, he did say to follow my heart). I need advice from you guys.

Thank you,

-TC

I wouldn't dare disrespect your Priest, but my own Confessor and our clergy are familiar with my experience as a rather heavy playing musician (though I also play in jazz bands, reggae bands, blues bands, jam bands..). That being said, perhaps you can ask your spiritual father to elaborate exactly what he means about the music thing? Is it just a matter of taste? I don't recall Orthodox issuing an Anathema's against metal music if it is not drug/sex/evil oriented in general. Just being loud or distasteful is not exactly contrary to Orthodox

So again, discuss it with your spiritual father and express your feelings and the sincerity of your intentions. The content of music is very important, the Orthodox have the concept of energization, and negative things are energized by negative forces, but if the music you play is no overtly negative then perhaps your father will renegotiate? Ask him to express his more specific spiritual concerns, and perhaps nudge his ribs a bit about how just being loud or fast as music is not inherently energized by Satan, it is the content of the lyrics and the intentions of the musicians which determines that. I can say there are several of us metal-heads floating around the Orthodox Church, and there are even a few bands!

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 01:18:40 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

The priest is technically not my spiritual father. He has helped me over a long period of time, but I live in NY and he lives in Florida. My spiritual father is the priest of my church, whom I have not discussed these things with yet (I haven't been to church since the beginnin of the year).

I have decided to rejoin the band but I told my buddy I won't be able to do it if it has a negative influence on me. So far things are good. We have two shows coming up (one of them is a cover show in which we are playing a set as Nirvana lol)

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"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "— St. John Chrysostom

The priest is technically not my spiritual father. He has helped me over a long period of time, but I live in NY and he lives in Florida. My spiritual father is the priest of my church, whom I have not discussed these things with yet (I haven't been to church since the beginnin of the year).

I have decided to rejoin the band but I told my buddy I won't be able to do it if it has a negative influence on me. So far things are good. We have two shows coming up (one of them is a cover show in which we are playing a set as Nirvana lol)

Then I suggest you take the one fathers advice in good spirits but with a grain of salt and take this question more specifically to your spiritual father. Here is another rhetorical question which I don't want you answer here, why haven't you been to your Church or to see your spiritual father in 9 months? That is a long time to miss, and a lot of ground to have to cover. After all, we develop a long term relationship with our confessors, they understand our spiritual progress and know the depths of our weaknesses, these are given invaluable insight by the Holy Spirit and how we as individuals can follow our own nuanced version of the Canons and Laws according to our own needs and where we are at on the path along the Way. If you are covering Nirvana but NOT doing heroin should be fine, so long as your own spiritual father approves

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 02:41:04 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Come on Michal, that is not the attitude we should have with our Orthodox brothers. I would expect that response from a secularist when I say the Orthodox Church is the one true Church, not from Orthodox on this forum.

Why we speak with such bitterness here on what we claim is an Orthodox forum... I don't understand it.

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"Verily they that seek Thee, Lord, and keep the canons of Thy Holy Church shall never want any good thing.” St. John the Merciful

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."Letter to Diognetus 11.4

I like some Byzantine music (it's generally a bit stuffy for my tastes, but I've heard some beautiful hymns), but my church doesn't use it, because we have our own tradition. Will my church go to hell?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.