Welcome to HVAC-Talk.com, a non-DIY site and the ultimate Source for HVAC Information & Knowledge Sharing for the industry professional! Here you can join over 150,000 HVAC Professionals & enthusiasts from around the world discussing all things related to HVAC/R. You are currently viewing as a NON-REGISTERED guest which gives you limited access to view discussions

To gain full access to our forums you must register; for a free account. As a registered Guest you will be able to:

Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts.

I think the EPA is a little upset, that the manufacturers found a loophole with the whole DRY CHARGED R-22 equipment.

MeThinks the loophole was meant to create commerce--- that is keep the chain of manufacturing and installing units going--- in a soft economy.

The EPA regulates the allowable amount of R-22 that can be manufactured in a year and its production is set to cease in 2030. In 2020, however, production will be reduced to a trickle.... 00.50% (if i remember correctly) of 2010 R22 production numbers. I also believe that by 2015, production will be reduced to 10% of 2010 production numbers.

As a result of the DRY CHARGED loophole, the EPA is moving up its R-22 production draw down and that was a big reason for the jump in R-22 price at the beginning of this year. The EPA decided that it would significantly cut the amount of R-22 that could be produced, to combat the loophole.

Tony

I wonder if R-22 will be cheap again (well, maybe not $129.95, which is what I bought it for at Christmas 2011); later in the fall or after the holidays? If it is... I plan to put in a pallet. When R-22 goes away, folks with 22 will have a stash of 'gold' so to say...

I wonder if R-22 will be cheap again (well, maybe not $129.95, which is what I bought it for at Christmas 2011); later in the fall or after the holidays? If it is... I plan to put in a pallet. When R-22 goes away, folks with 22 will have a stash of 'gold' so to say...

I suppose it all boils down to supply and demand.

A known fact is that the EPA is ratcheting down the amount that can be manufactured, faster than originally anticipated so that does significantly limit the supply.

From there, it should depend on how soon people convert from R-22, which will be ultimately dictated by money. The cost to maintain a current R-22 system, versus the cost to convert.

I don't think that the loophole was intentional. I just think that lawmakers aren't that knowledgeable when it comes to ACR. I suppose what I am getting at, is this. How could you write a law, to limit the sale of R-22 equipment?

What makes a certain piece of equipment, R-22 equipment? There are certain traits that you must have for an R-22 system but that is also very similar to other refrigerants as well.

With the right to free of speech in the bill of rights, I do not see how the govt can restrict the sale of DRY R-22 equipment.

Yes that dry equipment works with R-22 but it also works with other refrigerants as well. A company is also free to put almost anything they want as well, on their packaging label.

The only way to eliminate R-22 is to eliminate it's production and that is what the EPA has now realized... IE, why they are clamping down on production, even faster than originally intended.

Current R-22 equipment will last a long while and I think that we would have to see $800.00 to $1,000.00 a 30lb jug, before it forces people to prematurely convert to another refrigerant.

I also feel that that day will come because the EPA has significantly ratcheted up their plans to cut production. I estimate that it will take 2 to 4 years to fully convert so we should see sky high R-22 pricing for some time.

Once everyone converts, no one will want it anymore and the price will plummet.

A known fact is that the EPA is ratcheting down the amount that can be manufactured, faster than originally anticipated so that does significantly limit the supply.

From there, it should depend on how soon people convert from R-22, which will be ultimately dictated by money. The cost to maintain a current R-22 system, versus the cost to convert.

I don't think that the loophole was intentional. I just think that lawmakers aren't that knowledgeable when it comes to ACR. I suppose what I am getting at, is this. How could you write a law, to limit the sale of R-22 equipment?

What makes a certain piece of equipment, R-22 equipment? There are certain traits that you must have for an R-22 system but that is also very similar to other refrigerants as well.

With the right to free of speech in the bill of rights, I do not see how the govt can restrict the sale of DRY R-22 equipment.

Yes that dry equipment works with R-22 but it also works with other refrigerants as well. A company is also free to put almost anything they want as well, on their packaging label.

The only way to eliminate R-22 is to eliminate it's production and that is what the EPA has now realized... IE, why they are clamping down on production, even faster than originally intended.

Current R-22 equipment will last a long while and I think that we would have to see $800.00 to $1,000.00 a 30lb jug, before it forces people to prematurely convert to another refrigerant.

I also feel that that day will come because the EPA has significantly ratcheted up their plans to cut production. I estimate that it will take 2 to 4 years to fully convert so we should see sky high R-22 pricing for some time.

Once everyone converts, no one will want it anymore and the price will plummet.

Just my two cents.
Tony

The part about commerce... I think if the lawyer types at the EPA had wanted to... they could have figured out some tricky legal language (quick law) to stop DRY units.

I chose to not do much in DRY units, simply because 10 years down the road I will have to either sell juice without much profit or sell it for a HUGE amount. Better to not back my customers into that corner. Besides; an AC/coil using 410 is cheaper (even if one does not figure in the juice) than a DRY unit and a coil. And we know a 10 SEER coil on a 13 SEER AC is not gonna work well, even with a TXV.

I do think I will put in a stock of 22 when supply/demand drops the price in the dead of winter (or the Christmas holidays). No telling what will happen in years to come. Just wish I had bought more at $129.95 last winter.

I think the EPA is a little upset, that the manufacturers found a loophole with the whole DRY CHARGED R-22 equipment.
..............

I really don't think it was the EPA but Carrier who was upset about the dry charged units. Carrier was the one who petitioned the EPA to stop the sale of dry units. I blame the drop in production & skyrocketing price of R22 on them.
They probably were not selling as much 410A new systems as they anticipated & blamed a lot of lost sales on dry units. The transition to 410A probably would have been much more painless for the HO if they hadn't got involved.

Gary
-----------http://www.oceanhvac.com
An engineer designs what he would never work on.
A technician works on what he would never design.

The part about commerce... I think if the lawyer types at the EPA had wanted to... they could have figured out some tricky legal language (quick law) to stop DRY units.

I chose to not do much in DRY units, simply because 10 years down the road I will have to either sell juice without much profit or sell it for a HUGE amount. Better to not back my customers into that corner. Besides; an AC/coil using 410 is cheaper (even if one does not figure in the juice) than a DRY unit and a coil. And we know a 10 SEER coil on a 13 SEER AC is not gonna work well, even with a TXV.

I do think I will put in a stock of 22 when supply/demand drops the price in the dead of winter (or the Christmas holidays). No telling what will happen in years to come. Just wish I had bought more at $129.95 last winter.

Yea, same here on the recent price increase. I wish that I would have purchased more too.

Other than banning the manufacture of R-22, I am still not convinced that a law could be crafted, to ban the sale of the equipment. Especially when dry R-22 units, can be legitimately used with other refrigerants.

When credit rating agencies can claim that Goldman Sachs had a AAA credit rating, weeks before they go under, and successfully claim freedom of speech. I do not see how they can clamp down on what words are printed on a manufacturers packaging or promotion material.

If a law was crafted and the US Govt started being nazis about it, cracking down on DRY R-22 equipment, all the manufactures would have to do is replace R-22 with R-407c... *wink* *wink* on the label.

This is exactly why you can buy a semi automatic assault rifle and the book on how to make it fully automatic at the same time, in the United States.

Yea, same here on the recent price increase. I wish that I would have purchased more too.

Other than banning the manufacture of R-22, I am still not convinced that a law could be crafted, to ban the sale of the equipment. Especially when dry R-22 units, can be legitimately used with other refrigerants.

When credit rating agencies can claim that Goldman Sachs had a AAA credit rating, weeks before they go under, and successfully claim freedom of speech. I do not see how they can clamp down on what words are printed on their packaging.

If a law was crafted and the US Govt started being nazis about it, cracking down on DRY R-22 equipment, all the manufactures would have to do is replace R-22 with R-407c... *wink* *wink* on the label.

That is however, just my two cents.
Tony

Funny you mentioned R-407C; the DRY units from Rheem/Ruud (and Weatherking, SureComfort, Thermal Zone, and I suspect other names... the CUBES) have a label saying they work with R-22 and R-407C... noticed that in April.

As to Goldman Sachs... they are SOOO deep in bed with the govt... nothing would surprise me...

Laws... well Congress as well as the office of POTUS seem to pass all kinds of laws which are blatant violations of the founding documents (Declaration, Constitution, Bill/Rights, Amendments)... however unless they are challenged in the courts... they stand. And lately the courts seem to be more political than Constitutional anyway.

Not fussing... however how about lets go to ARP if we want to talk about the courts and govt...

I wonder if R-22 will be cheap again (well, maybe not $129.95, which is what I bought it for at Christmas 2011); later in the fall or after the holidays? If it is... I plan to put in a pallet. When R-22 goes away, folks with 22 will have a stash of 'gold' so to say...

Ask the folks that got stuck with a bunch of 12 and 502 how that worked out for them...

Not saying not to buy it, but don't go overboard or you'll be stuck sitting on a stash of gold that you can't get rid of...

Yes, I shudder when I see R-22 jugs being tossed at 60 to 70 psi but I am a bit of a cheapskate. I save them and recover them later.

Tony

You're required by law to recover the cylinder anyways, so might as well. Use a 3 way manifold and hook up 3 used cylinders at once. Open all 3 at once, then purge a bit at the low loss fitting by the recovery machine.

You're required by law to recover the cylinder anyways, so might as well. Use a 3 way manifold and hook up 3 used cylinders at once. Open all 3 at once, then purge a bit at the low loss fitting by the recovery machine.

Ask the folks that got stuck with a bunch of 12 and 502 how that worked out for them...

Not saying not to buy it, but don't go overboard or you'll be stuck sitting on a stash of gold that you can't get rid of...

Good thought there... I suspect the difference is all the DRY units and all the older units. You might be right though... merits a lot of thought.

Question for folks who have been in the resi business a LONG time: How much of the business was R-12? Was it the MAIN thing for decades? If not... I wonder if the amount of resi units out there would warrant a stash of R-22?

You're required by law to recover the cylinder anyways, so might as well. Use a 3 way manifold and hook up 3 used cylinders at once. Open all 3 at once, then purge a bit at the low loss fitting by the recovery machine.

Start it up and come back later

That is exactly what I do. I also try to make sure that the used cylinders are at least at room temperature.

Good thought there... I suspect the difference is all the DRY units and all the older units. You might be right though... merits a lot of thought.

Question for folks who have been in the resi business a LONG time: How much of the business was R-12? Was it the MAIN thing for decades? If not... I wonder if the amount of resi units out there would warrant a stash of R-22?

That is what I was thinking as well. I think that R-22 will be around for a while as it would take a significant cost increase to persuade the average home owner to upgrade.

That is what I was thinking as well. I think that R-22 will be around for a while as it would take a significant cost increase to persuade the average home owner to upgrade.

Around here: Most equipment folks had R-22 equipment available well into the AC season of 2010 (when it was no longer made). So given the average life of 12-15 years (less for DRY units I suspect), I think we could safely say R-22 AC units (and HP's) will be around in serious numbers until at least 2020.

I guess I need to figure out how much I would use between now and 2020... say, 6-7 years to be conservative.

The other thing I am thinking: The FED (folks that control the money supply) have been increasing money at the rate of 20+% for over a year now... sooner or later price inflation will set in along with EPA 'poo'. Either/both will cause the price to go up more.

I get R-12 (yes, those cute little 1# cans) a the local auto supply for around $10/ea. None of my vehicles use 12 anymore (years ago)... but sometimes I need one or two.