Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

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Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

his head was thrown back in a direction somewhat perpendicular to the grassy knoll.

kind of gross to visualize, but an exit wound causes a recoil back in the direction the shot came from, as material around the exit wound is expelled. Sorta like a "gun kick" effect.

Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-10-2013 at 10:01 PM.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

kind of gross to visualize, but an exit wound causes a recoil back in the direction the shot came from, as material around the exit wound is expelled. Sorta like a "gun kick" effect.

Ah, the old "jet effect" argument. First it wouldn't cause the violent back and to the left reaction from JFK. Second, have you ever fired a large caliber weapon in a large closed bottle of water? You have the exit hole you describe but I have never had that bottle of water leap back toward the shooter.... I have seen some knocked the other direction..... I'm afraid "jet effect" is another attempt to explain away something and some people bought into it until they tried it out. I used to be a hunter too and I never had a deer or any other animal leap toward me when I shot it. They either dropped or reacted aways from me.....

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

OlBlu honest question here.

Who do you think did this? Also do you think LHO was totally out of the loop or was he in on it just not the gunman?

I ask because in my evolution of ideas towards this I am now open to a conspiracy. BTW I'm being honest here, not a trick.

I have come to believe that there was a plot. I don't know how many gunmen I believe yet but even if it was just one with superstar shooting (tough to believe I'll agree with you here) I still believe that there were other people in on the plan.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

50 years later and there still isn't a conspiracy theory that is supported by concrete evidence. Not one credible suspect outside of Oswald. If this was a government coverup, then it would have logically required a decent amount of people to keep the secret over a 50 year span, yet no one has ever croaked. No one has ever spilled the beans on their deathbed. No one has ever tried to cash in for a massive profit at the end of their life. Keep in mind that some people have literally devoted their lives to trying to prove a conspiracy. Either it's literally the best kept secret in history, or it really was just a simple case of a lone whack job getting lucky. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

50 years later and there still isn't a conspiracy theory that is supported by concrete evidence. Not one credible suspect outside of Oswald. If this was a government coverup, then it would have logically required a decent amount of people to keep the secret over a 50 year span, yet no one has ever croaked. No one has ever spilled the beans on their deathbed. No one has ever tried to cash in for a massive profit at the end of their life. Either it's literally the best kept secret in history, or it really was just a simple case of a lone whack job getting lucky. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

There is no doubt there is a coverup though. There are government documents that have been released that were heavily redacted and then there are several (hundreds) known documents that the CIA still refuses to release. It's just that nobody knows what is exactly being covered up and/or why.

Several people have claimed to have info or tried to cash in at the ends of their lives. You don't hear it as much now since so much time has passed and many of them have passed. And many times the claims were contradictory so that creates another layer of skepticism and fog. It very well could be some have lied for fortune or fame, some have lied as part of a disinformation campaign, some have told the truth but only from their limited perspective, some have told the truth but other's lies and disinformation have made them seem not credible, and some have told the truth but never knew the entire story so have variables wrong that made them seem wrong overall.

The government went out of its way to create a narrative for this event and then buried lots of information that it still refuses to release.

These days that narrative tends to be the overriding story but many of the compelling reasons that have led to so many conspiracy theories have been forgotten. Oswald's life was a fairly interesting ride from Marine to moving to the USSR to live to returning with a Russian wife, Cuban/Castro sympathizer... Strange contacts.

And isn't there a laundry list of strange deaths that do surround the witnesses and potential connections to the event?

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Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

50 years later and there still isn't a conspiracy theory that is supported by concrete evidence. Not one credible suspect outside of Oswald. If this was a government coverup, then it would have logically required a decent amount of people to keep the secret over a 50 year span, yet no one has ever croaked. No one has ever spilled the beans on their deathbed. No one has ever tried to cash in for a massive profit at the end of their life. Keep in mind that some people have literally devoted their lives to trying to prove a conspiracy. Either it's literally the best kept secret in history, or it really was just a simple case of a lone whack job getting lucky. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

That is not true. A high level CIA man made a death bed confession to what happened and who was involved......

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

Who do you think did this? Also do you think LHO was totally out of the loop or was he in on it just not the gunman?

I ask because in my evolution of ideas towards this I am now open to a conspiracy. BTW I'm being honest here, not a trick.

I have come to believe that there was a plot. I don't know how many gunmen I believe yet but even if it was just one with superstar shooting (tough to believe I'll agree with you here) I still believe that there were other people in on the plan.

I believe the CIA was involved or at least a rogue element of it was. E. Howard Hunt made a death bed confession of sorts naming the people involved. We know LHO had a CIA handler (George De Mohrenschildt) who conviently committed suicide just before he was to be interrogated about the assassination. David Atlee Phillips was also associated with Oswald. The acoustic evidence is clear that three shots came from the Texas School Book Depository building but the kill shot came from the grassy knoll. If there were four shots, there was a conspiracy. The government has been covering-up this case for almost 50 years now. Why would you have to do a cover-up to convict a guilty man in the public's eyes? You would have to do one very good one to do that to an innocent man.

LHO was historically a lousy shot who barely qualified if he did qualify with a firearm (no one failed in those days). The Carcano is a piece of crap weapon and the one owned by LHO was in particularly bad shape. He apprently missed a stationary General Walker from less than 100 feet. The Russians made fun of him because he couldn't hit a rabbit with a shotgun. LHO's weapon was rusty and ill kept. The scope was so far off that a gunsmith had to install shims under it before it could be zeroed in. The bolt action worked so hard that no expert was ever able to come close to duplicating the shooting with LHO's weapon. Some did do it with Carcanos that had been reconditioned to make the bolt work easier. All Carcanos jam and if you exclude the attempts made when the weapon jammed, only a couple were able to duplicate the shots. Kennedy's head jerked violently back and to the left. That is not a reaction you get from a shot from the right rear. My father was a sniper in WWII and when he saw the Zapruder film in slow motion the first time, he immediately said that the killshot had come from in front of Kennedy and to his right (the grassy knoll). My father killed men in WWII and he told me that not one of them ever jerked back toward the high powered rifle he used. I am also a hunter and no deer has ever leapt back at me when I shot it. I have seen numerous films of people being executed. None of them every jerked toward the weapon that shot them. They either went straight down in a heap or fell away from it. However, those poles that people used to tie men to to execute them, if you believe the Warren Report were there to keep the executed prisoner from leaping all over his killer.

The government wanted a lone assassin because they were afraid WWIII would start if Russia or Cuba was shown to be behind it. LBJ and J. Edgar Hoover never believed in a lone assassin and neither does the rest of the world.

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

A post from another site (about the Sandy Hook hoax video), but sums up my opinion on conspiracys pretty well. I have no problem with questioning the govt, but often those who questions the govt refuse to question the questions. I do not belive we are always told the truth, but I also dont belive we (as humans) are capable of massive coverups that are never leaked, not even 50 years later.

Anyways, the post

Sorry you're upset by it.
The very notion that people would believe this offends my sensibilities as an American deeply. Seeing how the idiots have so many ears ready and willing to believe them makes me angry.

This is the greratest nation on earth, and we're convinced that we're one step away from Nazi Germany.. no better yet,, we ARE Nazi germany, and the pubhlic is too stupid to know it.

People who generate these ideas (not you in particular,, you're just opening the discussion here) are in my mind trying their absolute best to create chaos, and subvert this nation.. whether it's for their own craziness, or for profit, or for political reasons.. it's disgusting.

Beneath contempt. Undeserving of respect.

As Kilmer said,, they have the right to say what they want. And i have the right to reject it completely for any reason I want.
If that's ignorant to you, please understand that entertaining this **** is ignorant to me.
It ignores everything about this nation and the people who inhabit it.. and assigns us to an evil that is disgusting.

But as usual in conspiracies, the simplest question to ask (which is never asked) is HOW MANY PEOPLE would be needed to make it work?

"Three people can keep a secret.. if two of them are DEAD." - Benjamin Franklin

How does it work with HUNDREDS of people involved?
As long as that question exists, all other "theories" need to be viewed through it.
Conspiracy nuts never consider anything logical in their "logic".

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

I believe the CIA was involved or at least a rogue element of it was. E. Howard Hunt made a death bed confession of sorts naming the people involved. We know LHO had a CIA handler (George De Mohrenschildt) who conviently committed suicide just before he was to be interrogated about the assassination. David Atlee Phillips was also associated with Oswald. The acoustic evidence is clear that three shots came from the Texas School Book Depository building but the kill shot came from the grassy knoll. If there were four shots, there was a conspiracy. The government has been covering-up this case for almost 50 years now. Why would you have to do a cover-up to convict a guilty man in the public's eyes? You would have to do one very good one to do that to an innocent man.

LHO was historically a lousy shot who barely qualified if he did qualify with a firearm (no one failed in those days). The Carcano is a piece of crap weapon and the one owned by LHO was in particularly bad shape. He apprently missed a stationary General Walker from less than 100 feet. The Russians made fun of him because he couldn't hit a rabbit with a shotgun. LHO's weapon was rusty and ill kept. The scope was so far off that a gunsmith had to install shims under it before it could be zeroed in. The bolt action worked so hard that no expert was ever able to come close to duplicating the shooting with LHO's weapon. Some did do it with Carcanos that had been reconditioned to make the bolt work easier. All Carcanos jam and if you exclude the attempts made when the weapon jammed, only a couple were able to duplicate the shots. Kennedy's head jerked violently back and to the left. That is not a reaction you get from a shot from the right rear. My father was a sniper in WWII and when he saw the Zapruder film in slow motion the first time, he immediately said that the killshot had come from in front of Kennedy and to his right (the grassy knoll). My father killed men in WWII and he told me that not one of them ever jerked back toward the high powered rifle he used. I am also a hunter and no deer has ever leapt back at me when I shot it. I have seen numerous films of people being executed. None of them every jerked toward the weapon that shot them. They either went straight down in a heap or fell away from it. However, those poles that people used to tie men to to execute them, if you believe the Warren Report were there to keep the executed prisoner from leaping all over his killer.

The government wanted a lone assassin because they were afraid WWIII would start if Russia or Cuba was shown to be behind it. LBJ and J. Edgar Hoover never believed in a lone assassin and neither does the rest of the world.

So I understand you think the Government was at least involved in the cover up and perhaps you think that elements of the CIA had a hand in it. Is that your actual theory or is that just what you haven't ruled out?

I ask because while I think the government may have had elements involved I am now wondering, in fact am leaning towards, a theory that involves Santo Trafficante Jr. & Sam Giancana with believe it or not an outside tie to Frank Sinatra. No I don't believe that Sinatra was involved in the assassination plot but I do believe that it is possible that he inadvertantly got the ball rolling (through his ties with Joe Kennedy).

However if you want to go with the CIA angle (and while it sounds crazy I'm not far off of believing that part now) Trafficante was the man who lost lots of men in that bay of pigs fiasco so he did have connection to the CIA in that capacity.

Do you put any stock into these two at all? Also both had connections to LHO through New Orleans Costa Nostra.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

So I understand you think the Government was at least involved in the cover up and perhaps you think that elements of the CIA had a hand in it. Is that your actual theory or is that just what you haven't ruled out?

I ask because while I think the government may have had elements involved I am now wondering, in fact am leaning towards, a theory that involves Santo Trafficante Jr. & Sam Giancana with believe it or not an outside tie to Frank Sinatra. No I don't believe that Sinatra was involved in the assassination plot but I do believe that it is possible that he inadvertantly got the ball rolling (through his ties with Joe Kennedy).

However if you want to go with the CIA angle (and while it sounds crazy I'm not far off of believing that part now) Trafficante was the man who lost lots of men in that bay of pigs fiasco so he did have connection to the CIA in that capacity.

Do you put any stock into these two at all? Also both had connections to LHO through New Orleans Costa Nostra.

I do not believe Sinatra was involved, he was a personal friend of JFK and was devastated by the assassination. The CIA and Mafia issues could go together. Trafficante tried to kill Castro for the CIA more than once. I could see the two being together in the deal. The CIA went to a lot of work to cover-up as much as they could. They could have provided the Mafia with their Patsy..... One set of records that is marked top secret and has not been released is Oswald's tax records. I wonder why that is?

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

I do not believe Sinatra was involved, he was a personal friend of JFK and was devastated by the assassination. The CIA and Mafia issues could go together. Trafficante tried to kill Castro for the CIA more than once. I could see the two being together in the deal. The CIA went to a lot of work to cover-up as much as they could. They could have provided the Mafia with their Patsy..... One set of records that is marked top secret and has not been released is Oswald's tax records. I wonder why that is?

I don't think Old Blue Eyes was involved directly either. However what I meant was that inadvertanly he actually introduced JFK to Sam Giancana and had them sleeping with the same woman (Judy Campbell) all set up by Frank. My new found belief is that things started to go downhill between the Chicago Mob & JFK after RFK started going after organized crime. I think Giancana felt particularly betrayed because at Sinatra's behest (on behalf of old Joe Kennedy) they allegedly interfered greatly with the Virginia Democratic primary swinging the votes to JFK.

I think that is where the ball started rolling with the mob. Now how Trafficante Jr. got involved is another whole long story.

Again I had heard these theory's all my life & basically wrote them off as people who just couldn't accept reality. That is until I started looking at the circumstances of the deaths of several of the people that were going to testify about the assination.

Now I'm not convinced that this was a lone gunman. I'm not saying LHO didn't do it but I now am more open to believing that he was part of something bigger.

That's the real problem though with the entire Kennedy killing, you can go so many different ways and some of them go so far out there that I think most of us resort to default setting of saying "this is to crazy so therefore it had to be LHO".

Now I'm not sure.

But my new found belief is that the mob was deeply involved if not solely responsible. I know a lot of the big conspiracy guys don't want to believe that the mob could do that and that the government had to be involved in the cleanup. I'm not even saying that is out of the realm of possiblities because the more I looked the more involved the CIA was with the Florida/Lousiana mafia.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

I don't think Old Blue Eyes was involved directly either. However what I meant was that inadvertanly he actually introduced JFK to Sam Giancana and had them sleeping with the same woman (Judy Campbell) all set up by Frank. My new found belief is that things started to go downhill between the Chicago Mob & JFK after RFK started going after organized crime. I think Giancana felt particularly betrayed because at Sinatra's behest (on behalf of old Joe Kennedy) they allegedly interfered greatly with the Virginia Democratic primary swinging the votes to JFK.

I think that is where the ball started rolling with the mob. Now how Trafficante Jr. got involved is another whole long story.

Again I had heard these theory's all my life & basically wrote them off as people who just couldn't accept reality. That is until I started looking at the circumstances of the deaths of several of the people that were going to testify about the assination.

Now I'm not convinced that this was a lone gunman. I'm not saying LHO didn't do it but I now am more open to believing that he was part of something bigger.

That's the real problem though with the entire Kennedy killing, you can go so many different ways and some of them go so far out there that I think most of us resort to default setting of saying "this is to crazy so therefore it had to be LHO".

Now I'm not sure.

But my new found belief is that the mob was deeply involved if not solely responsible. I know a lot of the big conspiracy guys don't want to believe that the mob could do that and that the government had to be involved in the cleanup. I'm not even saying that is out of the realm of possiblities because the more I looked the more involved the CIA was with the Florida/Lousiana mafia.

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

50 years later and there still isn't a conspiracy theory that is supported by concrete evidence. Not one credible suspect outside of Oswald. If this was a government coverup, then it would have logically required a decent amount of people to keep the secret over a 50 year span, yet no one has ever croaked. No one has ever spilled the beans on their deathbed. No one has ever tried to cash in for a massive profit at the end of their life. Keep in mind that some people have literally devoted their lives to trying to prove a conspiracy. Either it's literally the best kept secret in history, or it really was just a simple case of a lone whack job getting lucky. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

In 1975 Frank Church and his Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities discovered that Judith Campbell had been involved with both Giancana and John F. Kennedy. It emerged that during the 1960 presidential election Campbell took messages from Giancana to Kennedy. Campbell later claimed these messages concerned the plans to murder Fidel Castro. Kennedy also began an affair with Campbell and used her as a courier to carry sealed envelopes to Giancana. He told her they contained "intelligence material" concerning the plot to kill Castro.

Giancana was now ordered to appear before Church's committee. However, before he could appear, on 19th June, 1975, Sam Giancana was murdered in his own home. He had a massive wound in the back of the head. He had also been shot six times in a circle around the mouth.

According to Peter Dale Scott, in 1976, James ***** Angleton "told an investigator that he knew which mob figures, from the New York and Chicago mafia families, had killed Sam Giancana. He also blamed the Church Committee for causing the death of Giancana and Rosselli, by demanding testimony concerning topics on which the mafia code of silence could not be broken."