I might owe women an apology. I’ve spent the majority of my writing career operating under the assumption that women have a larger population of ‘good’ men to choose from than bad. I recognize the term good is subjective but here’s the thing about that subjectivity: if the persons dating the population of people we are discussing believe they don’t have a lot of good to choose from within that population, whether they are right or wrong doesn’t matter if they believe it’s true based on their experiences. You can call it a self-fulfilling prophecy, but today I’ve chosen to analyze another aspect.

What if they’re right?

Background: One thing I’ve noticed about anything related to relationships is whenever you make a list of positive attributes reportedly found in a desirable mate, people automatically assume or proclaim they possess all those positive attributes. It doesn’t matter if they’re single ranging to married. This, however, by the law of averages alone, among any number of other variables, is impossible. People believe they possess the positive attributes without requiring any confirmation about whether they really do.

For example, does merely believing you’re a good singer make you a good singer? In my opinion, the true measurement is what other people think. Believing internally with all your heart that you can sing means you have high self-esteem and belief in your abilities. However, if the majority disagrees, your belief in your singing abilities will not be enough for you to succeed. I used “singing” to be objective, but you can basically apply this to any attribute someone believes they possess, but the majority of people disagree with their own self-assessment.

While it’s happened a number of times before, here and abroad, I observed this most recently on two posts one by Slim Jackson, Do Men Ever Step Up Without Women’s Expectations and another by Dr. J on Michelle Obama. As I read the comments, confused by some points more than others, I began to notice a couple themes that I hadn’t considered before. First, despite all the changes between the dynamics of men and women that occurred since the beginning of time, most women still expect/prefer men to lead in the courtship process. This lead to yet another realization…

Speaking for self, I believe the majority of women I have to choose from are ‘good’ women. This means, if I approach 10 women, I believe about 7 – 8 of these women have the potential to be girlfriend material, at minimum. Please note, girlfriend material does not equate to wife material but it is obviously a key component in the progression. I always assumed this ratio was fairly relative to women’s dating experience. I don’t know why I assumed this when the protests of women never validated my opinion but regardless, the other day I asked women the inverse: If 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material?

I received responses from women (judging by their Avis anyway) of varying racial background and one thing was consistent; it was rarely above 50%. A few were as low as 2 out of 10 or 1 out of 10. That means in these women’s lifetime, less than 50% and in some cases as low as 10% of men were even viable candidates to date. If true, this is why I owe women an apology. That was never my assumption and why I believed some women were simply entertaining poor choices in the men they date. I still believe this is the culprit in some instances, but maybe it’s because they don’t have enough ‘good’ ones to choose from in the first place?

I thought about this more but I couldn’t understand why the ratio is so low for so many women. Keeping my introduction in mind, let’s assume these women, based on their experiences, are correct that more nonviable men approach them than viable. The following are a few reasons I came up with.

The dynamics of dating. I approach women, albeit very lazily, but I do approach them. I theorize that I inadvertently skew my odds of success by approaching women I’m already attracted to. Conversely, (most) women wait to be approached, which means they have to weed through men they are not even attracted to in the first place. This initial lack of attractiveness may be overcome, but it still affects their pool of viable candidates since all men are free to approach them not just the men they are interested in.

Maybe women are pickier than men? I’m picky but not really. My minimal requirements is a list maybe three things long on a good day, and it’s a weighted list at that. If you’re highly attractive, you’ve already got a head start. I’m not saying men shouldn’t expect more, but I have noticed a pattern of men expecting less from women than women expect from men. For example, I know far more women that prefer to date a college educated man than men that prefer a college educated woman. Every (nonnegotiable) standard someone has reduces, sometimes exponentially, their dating options. Therefore, since women tend to have more, maybe their dating pool is smaller?

There are more viable women than viable men, period. I’m too lazy to research statistics today, but it is my understanding there are more women than men on Earth and in most major cities. Accounting for jail and death, which disproportionately affects men in general and black men specifically (which most of our readership dates), this ratio is even further skewed.

However, none of these points are important to how I’m going to end this post. I had a debate with my friend-girl one day about her odds of success versus mine. At the time, I assumed we had the same odds of initially meeting a good man/woman. What I told her favored me – and she did not like, at all – is that even if we both met a good man/woman at the exact same time, the odds were in my favor that my good woman would be far more likely than her good man to be willing to be in a committed relationship. Beyond all the skewed theories I outlined above, even good men, relative to good women, are less likely to commit on the same time line. It should be no mystery to anyone that men marry later. Further, if I want things to progress: initial approach > exclusive commitment > marriage, I’m the driving force since I am the one asking each time; granted she doesn’t have to say yes.

Questions for the readers: 1) Do you believe there are less good men (viable dating partners) to choose from in the dating population? If yes, how do you/did you overcome the odds? 2) Why do you believe there are less good men for women to choose from than good women for men to choose from? 3) Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material? Fellas, if you approached 10 women, how many of them would be, at minimum, girlfriend material?

WisdomIsMiseryWisdomIsMisery aka WIM uses his formal training as an internal auditor to provide objective, yet opinionated, qualitative and quantitative analysis on life, love, and everything in between. As a Scorpio, many women wish death on WIM and some have attempted to hasten its arrival. WIM is not a model, a model citizen, or a role model. See more of WIM on Twitter @WisdomIsMisery.

No i don’t think that there is a shortage of good guys. Your first point pretty much sums it up for me. The dynamics of dating pretty much allows men to skew things in their favor. I think women can skew things in their favor by initiating contact. Not leadingthe relationship, just start with a hello. Most interested guys will take things from there.

Ultimately women and men need to realize that they can go head switch they style up. If 1/10 men who approach you are a waste of time, why not approach 10 using your own spidey senses and see how that works.

Since men are going to switch this around and say the cure is for women to approach so they can be EVEN LESS proactive than the already pretty lazy 3 FOOT RULE alluded to in the post, I'd like to pose a question to the ladies:

How many out of 10 men you've approached based on the advice from men have turned into viable bfs/husbands?

I'm just curious. I have no interest in approaching men and when I did, it went dismally. 🙂

Carl

Maybe your approach was the problem KitKatCuty84. I, for one, tend to be skeptical about women who are overly 'aggressive' when they strike up a conversation with me. I don't mind a woman who takes the initial step but I appreciate doing the driving once the ice has been broken. Hope that makes sense.

Ace Liburd

You sound like my guy frineds who can't pick up women even the ones they approach thy're always something wrong with the chick never them. and it always alittle bit of both.

Since i'm up, and the struggle hasn't broken out yet, i'll give it a whirl…

2. without a doubt there are less 'good men' for women to choose, than there are 'good women' for men to choose (i say 'good' like that, because one person's meat is another man's poison). the biggest thing is that the pool is smaller to begin with. i actually have the census stats (take it for what it's worth) that show that there are more black males than females from every age from birth till about…22. Ages 15-19 is the last age range that there are more black males than females. after that, the gap becomes more and more evident. so first off, we as black males need to stay alive, lol. Secondly, and more pervasively, the amount of stories i've heard on the (for lack of a better word) hijinks that other males have pulled off, and i can see why more women are muchi
3. personally i rarely approach anymore, i sorta gave up, lol. but any woman i approach, is girlfriend material, because that's where my mindstate is right now.

My question wouldn't be her standards, since she would have no idea if they met her standards if she didn't first approach them. My question is: How can you tell who's worthy of approaching before you approach?

Uncle Hugh, BP

KitKatCuty84: "How can you tell who's worthy of approaching before you approach?"

You don't. Men take a chance. Based on physical appearances (facial, body type, attire, what she is doing ie: reading or some other activity) we are attracted, and make base assumptions. We approach. Based on responses, we can make assumptions about intelligence, demeanor, etc. We ask for a date. We see if they are socially compatible. And let it naturally progress from there.

Do I take from your tone that you wish this wasn't the case and think things would be better if women approached, or does this method work for you?

Uncle Hugh, BP

Tone? Maybe my dry personality isn't coming across the keyboard, but there is no tone at all. Just answering your questions as you presented them.

I have no problem whatsoever approaching women. When I suggest women speak to men, I'm not saying women should ask men out, just merely say hello or strike up a conversation if you are interested.

I actually would look slightly askance at the woman that asks me out. But sometimes you have to speak so we know you exist. Then conclude, oh, see seems nice, she can hold a decent conversation, she seems like good people. She has potential, I'll ask her out to get to know her better. Damn, those t!tties are straining the buttons on her blouse! Ok, try not to stare!

"I enjoyed this conversation, would you like to meet me at Bella's coffee shop for lunch later this week?"

Its true. In all the guys that I've dated, I made the initial move with only one of them and he was by quite a margin much better than all the other guys I had dated or who approached me, even though the guys I dated were good guys too. So maybe the solution is for women to start making that first move. Change your own odds. To answer your question, out of 10, maybe one. If I do the approaching, since I get to choose who to approach, around half.

1) Do you believe there are less good men (viable dating partners) to choose from in the dating population? If yes, how do you/did you overcome the odds?

Yes, although I'm sure that it doesn't help that I'm not always seeking out new mingling opportunities. I haven't yet overcome those odds. I get asked by men, aunties, and uncles alike all the time about why I'm single, because there appears to be an assumption that a decent looking woman should have absolutely no difficulty finding someone to be in a relationship with. I have options, to be sure…they simply happen to be 100% unviable.

2) Why do you believe there are less good men for women to choose from than good women for men to choose from?

The reasons vary. For black women who have a preference for black men and a lack of attraction to other races, the numbers are simply not in their favour. Even for those who are looking to broaden their horizons, they are not as sought-after as black men are by other groups. Also, I've noticed a significant number of black men who are "not ready for a relationship" for one reason or another. You have suggested that it's because they have a healthy respect/fear of them, and I suppose that's fair. However, some are fine with doing 85%+ of what happens in a relationship. Sometimes, it's a simple matter of making a decision and doing away with excuses. For women who have educational requirements, women's enrolment in post-secondary institutions is exceeding men's. Again, law of numbers. And on it goes. Standards and preferences are a pesky force to be reckoned with.

3) Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material?

Based on my experience to-date? In the 1-2 range. I'm polite to the men who approach me when I'm out and about, but most of them are not people I would seriously consider dating. Other men who catch my eye are content to observe me from afar. I suppose you can count it as my loss for not approaching them, but there are some gender roles that I have no beef with. If it's clear that he's attracted to me, I want a man who will go right ahead and make that meeting happen.

i think its a few things going on. first i don't think the ratio of men:women is even. I think its probably like 1.5:1. And once a women turns 18, her effective dating pool gets smaller and smaller. Independent of stuff like college education, financial status, children. Once a man turns 18, his effective dating pool gets larger and larger, and that is also independent of the above factors.

I also think that the dating pool isn't uniformly spread. I've noticed among my girlfriends… some are juggling 4 or 5 suitors at one time. Others can barely get one guy to even look their way. So you know how ppl are upset that 90% of the wealth is tied up in the top 10% of the population (or something like that). I think it might be like that women. Its probs not to that extent, but I don't think men are dividing their attentions equally among women. A good number of women are getting left out in the cold.

And then there all the other factors that you mentioned. Which I agree with.
My recent post Life is funny.

I also think that the dating pool isn't uniformly spread. I've noticed among my girlfriends… some are juggling 4 or 5 suitors at one time. Others can barely get one guy to even look their way. So you know how ppl are upset that 90% of the wealth is tied up in the top 10% of the population (or something like that). I think it might be like that women. Its probs not to that extent, but I don't think men are dividing their attentions equally among women. A good number of women are getting left out in the cold.

This is a very interesting analogy and one I hadn't considered before. I'll have to chew on this a bit, but thanks. *scribbles in idea pad*

" Its probs not to that extent, but I don't think men are dividing their attentions equally among women. A good number of women are getting left out in the cold. "

Good analogy and this makes sense to a certain degree. To a smaller extent, for example, when women go out together in groups there is inevitably (in some groups) 1 or 2 women that will get most of the attention/get approached all night. I've even hear multiple stories from different women on how they'll let a guy approach and talk and then pull over her (often less than aesthically pleasing) home girl and introduce them and leave. Classic switch-a-roo. And listen, I understand not every guy looks like a Michael Ealy or Idris, but those snaggle-toothed guys will approach more women more often than their woman counterparts will get approached by men it would appear.

cynicaloptmst81

"I also think that the dating pool isn't uniformly spread. I've noticed among my girlfriends… some are juggling 4 or 5 suitors at one time. Others can barely get one guy to even look their way."

This is SOO true. And this isn't limited to facially challenged friends. "The lookers" can get passed up too. Maybe the 'not as pretty' friend has the more complimenting outfit for her figure…or a more attractive personality. It def happens. *shrugs*

Sometimes the higher-level girl in the looks department has a reputation that implies she won't be as easy prey for an evening of post-bar fun. That's a factor in being approached too.

chunk

"…some are juggling 4 or 5 suitors at one time. Others can barely get one guy to even look their way."

Yep. Care to go ahead and point out the immediate differences between those who are juggling and those who barely get attention?

starita34

Very interesting question to pose Chunk…

In my group, the main girl with several men is playing the men for money…she's playing their game because she was hurt deep and has decided that love is not a risk she's willing to take anymore. So she exchanges her (bangin) body for their finances, and all sides call it a win…til one of the dudes falls for her, then his heart gets broken. And of course she has breakdowns sometimes too….she's still human, it's pretty rare though, she's truly closed her heart off..

The other girl that seems to stay jugglin' does so because she can't get the man that she wants to commit to her, so she allows the side players to entertain her when he's unavailable to her. She wants love, she's just not willing to be alone or leave the man she wants in the process of finding it.

Point One: Yes, based on the idea of who is approaching who…it gives men the edge of approaching "good" females. A woman can have a bum hit on her in the street and she would count that in the ten as someone not good enough for her. As compared to men…I don't think much of us will be hitting on the homeless woman in the street. Leading to less chances of undateable women.

Point Two: Yes…men are more flexible with their standards. Men are more willing to "date down" than women are. We can easily tell this by who we see men going for…Sometimes majority based on looks and the other qualities are then negotiable (key word is sometimes and its also based on the guy). At the same time…most women want a guy to be the main provider…which calls for a man not only being at their level, but at an even higher level (even if they're non-deserving).

Point Three: One thing I will say…there are more women out there + more men in jail + less men with degrees (which seems to be what a lot of women are asking for) + DL brothas. In a way, it creates a playing field where viable men are less frequent than viable women. BUT…at the same time…men are the way they are because of women. Why do men go out to get money? Women love money. Why do men learn to cook? To be self sufficient and because women love men that can cook. Why are so many men a**holes? Because majority of women will either say: 1, Nice guys are boring. 2, I like someone that can keep me in check. 3, I like bad boys. 4, *insert some variation of a guy being too soft or not manly enough*. And then guys just take that a**hole-ness to another level lol.

But are there a ton of great guys out there? Hell yes. I consider myself one, I think my male friends are good guys, and I refuse to think I'm something special when there are millions of other guys out there that could be just like me or even better. Are good guys the majority of the dating pool for women? No. I will admit to that. But at the same time…good women aren't the majority of the dating pool.

Cynthia

1) Do you believe there are less good men (viable dating partners) to choose from in the dating population?

No. I think there are lots of "good" men and "good" women in the dating pool. The trick is finding the right one for you. Oh, and knowing when you have a "good" one that's a keeper.

If yes, how do you/did you overcome the odds? n/a.

2) Why do you believe there are less good men for women to choose from than good women for men to choose from?

For some odd reason, despite the stats, news reports, and other miscellaneous outlets in my experience I have not had an issue with finding "good" men to date.

3) Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material?
To be honest, it would depend on what I am looking for at the time he approached. It seems I am a bit backwards as I meet "boyfriend material" when I am not looking for a relationship. *shoulder shrug*

Also, I will say that I have "approached" a guy. I say "approached" meaning I said hello or initiated conversation. I don't think it's a big deal who speaks first so long as someone speaks. 🙂

Yasmin

The main issue is that most women want their equal and men don't always have that as a criteria. When I say women want their equal, I also mean someone of a similar socio-economic background and education. Women are obtaining degrees in much greater numbers than men, so the chances of them finding their equal are being reduced. Either men have to step up in education, or women need to adjust their standards to those of men, where they just have to settle for someone they are attracted to or get along with but who may not have a comparable career or education. Women may have to accept becoming the breadwinners.

NKween

what makes a man or woman "good?"

Naija

As far as this post is concerned, the fact that he/she is a "viable dating partner;" ergo specific to your personal dating standards.

Teyana

Im with Naija on this one most of what she said is insync with my views. I also think geographical location has something to do with it because that ultimately affects the demographics in the area and ultimately your dating opportunities.

I cant really speak from my personal experience, as i had my last relationship while i was still in university (2 years ago) so my view point is neither recent nor objective. I am optimistic that the guys from varsity have evolved into men who would be atleast boyfriend worthy.

Out of 10 guys that approach me, perhaps 1 would be friend-boy quality; goes back to a previous article about dating in big cities and the fact that at this junction of my life my career is my primary concern.

I enjoy this blog because it kinda keeps me clued in with whats going out there!!

“There must be more good women than men percentage wise, so herchance of finding a husband just minimized” -Vintage Yeezy

I been aware of this fact, and economics 101 says that as a slightly above aint ish man i should determine my market value accordingly. Even now i know a legit 6 women i can probably wife up tomorrow, none of them are even talking to someone serious #coldworld. I think its a maturity thing, as young hoodrats might get their grown woman on at about 26, while men might not until their 30s (if at all). If 10 women were to randomly approach me i’d say 5 were legit wifey material, 3 would’ve been if not for baggage, 2 complete fails.

Dont sleep cuz i be getting approached by THEE WORST women and alot of them be older too, got m feeling all insecure about how old i look n whatnot -__-

James

Here’s the flaw. Yes there are good men for good women. All one woman wants is one good man. Not a team of em. Also let’s face it we are a way more petty “lifestyle” driven generation.

What use to be seen as “rising through the ranks” is now called balling or just flat out the more lame sounding “lifestyle”. Like Ye said we can’t go to the store without a fresh pair of [insert overrated “thing” accumulated via lifestyle. We won’t even look at one another if they represent any signs of real life.

We are in a decade long recession. Unemployment for black men even college educated is way high. Even with a college degree most of will change jobs several times.

In all of this many good men like myself get lost in the shuffle.

I’m a good man but flawed. I won’t always give you the reassurance relationships have somehow are supposed to give. And in this “have it now/no patience” era, I believe many good men aren’t given the time needed to see who they are.

Face it I am not given the same leash as the brother who makes 50k, drives a nice car, goes out on the reg and seems to be the life of the party oh and is debt free because he didnt make the braindead

James

Here’s the flaw. Yes there are good men for good women. All one woman wants is one good man. Not a team of em. Also let’s face it we are a way more petty “lifestyle” driven generation.

What use to be seen as “rising through the ranks” is now called balling or just flat out the more lame sounding “lifestyle”. Like Ye said we can’t go to the store without a fresh pair of [insert overrated “thing” accumulated via lifestyle. We won’t even look at one another if they represent any signs of real life. Couples use to build together. Now we must upgrade or enhance the other. Whatever.

We are in a decade long recession. Unemployment for black men, even college educated is way high. Even with a college degree & good job most of us will change (time consuming and demanding) jobs several times.

In all of this many good men like myself get lost in the shuffle.

I’m a good man but I’m flawed. I won’t always give you the reassurance relationships have somehow are supposed to give. And in this “have it now/no patience” era, I believe many good men aren’t given the time needed to see who they are. We are the disposable generation. Just look at the divorce rates and marriage lengths.

Face it I am not given the same leash as the brother who makes 50k, drives a nice car, goes out on the reg and seems to be the life of the party oh and is debt free because he didnt make the braindead decsion to actually go to a four year university to chase his passionate idea of becoming a film maker. (my boy, supervisor in Brooklyn’s Woodhull Hospital makes 50k, drives the nice whip et al).

I have the degree but what it cost me to get it is why many black men don’t go or don’t finish. Yet most women want me to be as smart as she and out earn her too?

Ok well when do women start to really go hard on this? When I was in school I never heard of it, the moment we graduate is an automatic pre req.

Most of my boys with kids and relationships eschewed college for the ability to make money from 18-25 while I toiled for peanuts in my work study gigs. Sometimes it seems women want the working dude to become the educated brother yet do it debt free.

I still feel if one good man is all she wants he’s out there…in droves no but with patience they can find one another and build. But if she looking for “the all star” team, yea after about 5 guys things may get thin.

James

–>>>My first reply should be ignored but ah when the post comment button and a character button on your phone are too close and it’s via a phone in which I reply half finished statements are gonna happen;)

"I won't always give you the reassurance relationships have somehow are supposed to give. And in this "have it now/no patience" era, I believe many good men aren't given the time needed to see who they are."

Questions:
1.) What do you mean you won't give her the reassurance people expect with relationships? What reassurance is that and why won't you give it to her?

2.) How much time? How much time is "enough" for a woman to give a man to become a man she should date/marry?

Its "Hypergamy". A lot of women "not all" (because i have met many that aren't) are looking for that guy that "has it all" in their eyes". .
Heres an example. Lets say im only attracted based on my standards to 3% of the population. i dont even notice the other 97% despite there being plenty of good women in that 97%, albeit missing certain qualities here and there. But since im so focused on that small percent the chances are slim to none of me scoring a mate from that "worthy" market. There is pleny of good mates FOR both sides. The question is when do we re-evaluate our standards to focus on must needs instead of wants+needs.Got to wake up sooner or later.

Not to mention we as a civiliation tend to OVER VALUE ourselves on both sides. We are all good…to ourselves. Most importantly we are all capable of great things if encouraged. Invest in potential and SUPPORT them. People associate support with "take care of" which is only one definition. -"To aid the cause, policy, or interests of" is what im talking about.

rhenewal

To date a man, I have to see in him the potential to be together longterm. This means that I must be attracted to him, he has to speak the Queen's English, he has to be able to hold a conversation for more than 5 minutes without accusing me of "acting/sounding white", he has to have a job, and he has to be SINGLE.

Now, the above may not seem like too much of a list, but believe it or not, more than half the time the last requirement is the hardest to fill. E.g. Just this weekend I was out with one of my close friends who spent the entire night with this one dude buying her drinks, cuddling up to her at the bar, introducing her to friends of his, etc. He asked when he could see her again. She said it depended on his answers to her basic questions. First one: are you single? Answer: hesitation, started to speak, stopped, silence. Question asked again, and more firmly: are you single? Answer: I guess I can't lie. I'm married. She walked away, he followed, attempted to talk her into going out with him anyway.

Granted, this was not my experience, but it's far from typical. This particular man at least admitted to being married. Half the time, they don't. So, we're not only up against the difficulties of finding a "good" guy in general. We're up trying to find an un-attached good guy. You might argue that a "good" guy wouldn't be blatantly hitting on women in a bar while his wife is elsewhere, but good in this post seemed to be defined as simply a guy I would consider dating.

If 10 random men approached me, I'd probably find 2-3 of them dateable. And I don't consider myself picky. I don't have an education requirement (although I do have preferences) as long as dude's diction/elocution is good. I don't have a salary requirement (as long as you live within your means). I don't automatically dead a man if he has a child (more than one is a definite pause, though). I understand (although I don't like) the lack of a car thing with dudes who live within the NYC limits. However, at 28, cute, good-job-having, childless, funny, smart, supportive, loyal, and Lord knows how many other great qualities (toot toot goes my horn :)) I remain single.

starita34

Yeah this is going to be a problem every time: "he has to be SINGLE." Almost no man is all caps single, like, ever…

The stories I could tell y'all about some lowercase single dudes I went out with. LOL. Chuckling to myself just THINKING about that foolishness. You live and you learn…

Tea

I have a question…do women really still NOT approach men? I mean, I don’t because I’m shy (lol), but all my guy friends say women are super aggressive (maybe its DC?). So that makes me wonder if approaching men is the issue in terms of odds of meeting datable men.

Another question is about this “dating down” thing. I don’t necesssarily buy into it because I see a number of women dating men with less ‘this’ and less ‘that’ (be it education/money/drive) and I see a number of men dating women with more of this/that…at least I definitely see more men attempting to “date up” (she got more money, more fame, more education, or whatever other ‘good on paper’ attributes).

richbrand

Yeah, that's definitely DC. Other areas of the country, in my experiences, a LOT of women that are within my peripheral circle (HBCU, Greek, advanced degrees) absolutely refuse to "date down". Some are even willing to date "outside the circle", or even hope and pray that their ideal black man gets a divorce and open up a spot for them to ensure they will not "date down", let alone "marry down". A lot of them are like Taraji P.'s character in "Think Like a Man" (ironically Taraji went to Howard), yet these women believe so much in their own brand (even in their mid 30's) that they will wait to get what they want.
Speaking for myself, I have no problem "dating up" as I am secure in the lane God has me in. If it becomes a problem in the relationship, given my aforementioned statement, it won't be my fault.

SMilez_920

Well if you and your parents worked hard to get you through a very prestigious university, then you busted your butt to be the best or close to the best at what you do in your field, why should you have to date down. When men reach a certain level of accomplishment their options as far as women go expand. I’ve noticed with my white female counterparts this whole idea of having to date down isn’t pushed as hard as it is to black women. Now to me Tarajii wasn’t dating down in the movie (other than social status) other than that she found a man with all of the qualities she wanted. I also think Tarajii was just too pig headed to see a man with actually potential and take into account that she had a man that really cared about her.

Uncle Hugh, BP

"Well if you and your parents worked hard to get you through a very prestigious university, then you busted your butt to be the best or close to the best at what you do in your field, why should you have to date down."

Is it dating down? If a man doesn't have a degree, but is a licensed plumber foreman that does side jobs, owns several properties and makes over $100K a year, is that dating down because he didn't go to (insert university of choice) and doesn't go to work wearing a suit and tie?

The answer is "No" a college degree does not equate financial success even moreso now in these hard economic times, give me a dude with a good skill who has the know how and mindset to turn a pumpkin into a carriage and I'm good.

Larry

"The butcher-pimp raises a good question here. "

Obviously, I'm gonna have to trademark this 'butcher-pimp' thing I started, lol.

SMilez_920

No but the majority of plumbers might not fall into that category. I’m all for men who work blue collar jobs and make a lot of money doing it, I even said it on here there are lots of men working good city jobs making great money. I’m just saying when a man goes to college and receives several degrees and success his options open up. If a man right now said “I only want to date a women with a college degree and a mid level corporate job" it would be no fuss.

Uncle Hugh, BP

I guess I'm not necessarily saying you are against it. I'm asking a general question, because a lot of women feel that way and think blue-collar workers are beneath them.

I work for a municipality and in addition to engineering, I oversee construction projects of bridges, riverwalks and parking structures. I happen to have the prevailing wage sheet right here (pointing to open Adobe spreadsheet), and it states plumbers on city or state jobs must be paid at a minimum $36.96/hr. I'm just saying if women (in general) look down on someone making $75K a year, I think they need to revise what they call "dating down" and stop being aloof.

SMilez_920

Those women are more attracted to the allure of a title. It's like someone saying you’re an administrative assistant vs. secretary. Think about it like this a woman goes to her annual Christmas party, brings her man. She works for a big company, is in mid-level management. Now they get in a conversation with some of her coworkers, boss etc.. and the discussion of what his job is comes up. To some women they feel a man saying he’s a plumber doesn’t have that same ump or shine as “I’m a manager at ____<- insert fortune 500 company here”. It’s all about the façade of social class status. I even heard some women say “I want to be able to have an intelligent/worldly conversation with my man so he needs a degree”, when we all know there are many uniformed people attending college every day.
I’ve also seen women miss out on good men because of things like a height requirement, even if they find the man attractive.

I don't believe in dating down. I don't believe I'm better than anyone else because of any of my achievements. I also don't think those achievements have anything to do with whether that person would make a good lover/friend/partner/husband/father, etc. I've often had THE WORST luck with men who were "supposedly" on my level.

WisdomIsMisery

I can't speak for DC. I've never lived there. I lived in TX until age 25 and now reside in CO. In my lifetime, I've been approached by maybe 10 women and that's a high estimate. Also, that number has increased as I've gotten older. By the time I graduated college, maybe 3 women had approached me. *shrugs* Maybe women are getting more comfortable approaching; however, it is by no means even close to the norm in my experience.

That does it. I'm moving. Eff it.
3/4 of my Besties have moved to CO. ALL of them, having gone YEARS without LTR's were either in a serious relationship or married within the SAME YEAR they moved. This very well may be your perspective because there just might be a gang of really "good" dudes over there.

Yeah, there are definitely still women out there who don't (and WON'T) approach men, myself included. 🙂

bellatrice1

I don't buy into the whole "dating down" thing either. I mean what is that?? Granted, I've never dated anyone without a college degree, but that's not because I turned them down based on that information. That's just who approaches me.

However, me and my friend were having a discussion the other day about how golddiggers are winning. Not saying that a woman who won't date down is a goldigger, but a lot of men want the woman they can't have, or as I've heard some men put it, "a woman that's too good for them."

I'm from the DC burbs…I don't approach, neither do any of my friends. It's just not my style.

teannhny

Thanks for responding yall! I didn't have internet access during the day yesterday till last night and couldn't get in on the conversation in a timely manner.

MadScientist7

i think by the sheer fact that there are less men than women in this world then there has to be less good men available. the question then arises is what is a good man for you? depending on how a woman answers that question she may find that there are a surplus of good men available to her.

to answer your question if i approached 10 random women maybe 5-6 would be girlfriend material. a lot of women think they're girlfriend/wife material and truth be told all of them can't be. that's just impossible. we need to debunk the myth that all women are relationship ready from birth and men have this uphill battle to fight in order to be ready to be in a relationship. its really case-by-case.

Streetz

I aslo think that we have to differentiate the difference between "dating" and "girlfriend material"

Like Wis said, the reason men might have better options is because initially, we don't have that much criteria. Im convinced the majority of men are looking at women from a sexual perspective first. Thats why we dont have the same laundry list of deal breakers that women do. ONce we get past that and get to know a woman better, then we are pulling out our questionnaires to see whats good.

Men also have the f*ck it factor – we are willing to say f*ck it and deal with certain unpleasing qualities in women if the whole > the sum of their parts. Women won't do the same (not that theres anything wrong with that)
My recent post [FITNESS] – 3 Weekly Goals 4-30-11 #3WG

Classy6ft5

"I'm convinced the majority of men are looking at women from a sexual perspective first….."
"Once we get past that a get to know a woman better, then we are pulling out our questionnaires to see what's good."

So what you're saying is, a woman has to be good in bed FIRST (but not TOO good OR on the 1st date to looking like a hoe), and THEN she has to measure up "on paper"?

You got 6thumbs up sooooo…this is true?

Also, what does vagina taste like because I might just have to disappoint my mother an switch teams. I thought I'd make it in this dating game……seems the rules change and get harder everyday.

Honest questions. -_-

Streetz

Hey Classy,

What Im saying is that men see women first for their physical characteristics. If that is appealing to them, then they make sure the major points are covered

1) is she crazy? Will she left eye Lopez (RIP) the crib? Will she stalk me?

2) is her personality agreeable? Does she sound like a dumb box of rocks or is she as interesting as drying paint? is she cool?

3) General BG – Who do I know that knows her? School? Job? Is she lookin for a come-up? etc.

These are major points we can ascertain from a few convos or initial meeting. From there its a go. Over time is where men decide whether it can go past physical or just "attraction" to something realer. I would argue thqat 90% of relationships on a mans side originated from "shes attractive I want her" to "shes GF material"

well vagina tastes sort of like… wait, you were being facetious.
My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

Bree

FTFO and LMBAO @ Mad Scientist….omg

Tea

1) Do you believe there are less good men (viable dating partners) to choose from in the dating population? If yes, how do you/did you overcome the odds?

If “good” = open to being in a relationship, then yes, there are less. If “good” = relationship ready, then its closer to being even. I think a lot more women are relationship thirsty, and that doesn’t make a good dating partner imho. Guys have their own special thirst too…its like they want to catch you/ be seen with you but its for their ego or image <—idk…haven't thought it out.

I don't try to overcome odds. If there is something special about someone I meet I try to let them know in some kind of way. When someone feels that way about me, I trust they will do the. Same. (and that I can filter through the thirst/alt motives). Everything else is me just living life, meeting who I meet, and having fun in the process.

2) Why do you believe there are less good men for women to choose from than good women for men to choose from?

I think for most its what you said (or ur friend said) abt good partially meaning being open to/ready for a relationship.

3) Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material?

Out of the guys that approach, maybe 3. A lot of guys that approach just do that all the time. They aren't looking for anything special. Lol. That cuts out half at least. The rest may be bf material in general, but you may not like or be attracted (those are the ones that'd have to work to change your mind). Then you have the 1 or 2 you actually like but timing, distance,…

Interesting conversation…less good men–may be very well be some logical reasoning in the equation, yet I can't help to see all the comments about the random 10–1 or 2?? Harsh. I am not the one to judge, because the perspective is completely relative. But it makes me question the stereotype of women wanting/expecting more from men than we have ourselves…Personally, I don't 100% buy the hype simply because it's all a matter of choice. We can be extremely critical of each other limiting our dating pool. We have this habit of an increasingly demanding list—which in itself is not bad, but the problem comes when we allow minor things to cloud our vision of what could potentially be a good thing. 1o random dudes, I would say 6 would be worth a try. Not that I devalue myself by any means, I just choose not to judge early prefer to let it play out and see what it is.

MsLoni

I don't necessarily think there are less "good" men from which women can select. I think there are less men who want the same kind of committed that the majority of women want. I believe the majority of women want a strong, exclusive relationship w/a man she adores and he adores her back. But it seems that a lot of men don't want this until later in their life. I hate the term "settle down" because it implies that one a person decides to commit to one person that they are some how settling. It seems that a lot of men feel that they have to all their fun as a bachelor. Once they are old, tired and spent they will fully commit to someone. Women seem to view a commitment/marriage like the beginning of a whole new world where they will have a partner to enjoy life with and build together. Men and women just view marriage very different. So it's not so much that there aren't good men. I think it's a shortage of men who don't absolutely dread the idea or marriage or long term committment and think it's something embark on once they've squoze every ounce of fun outta their bachelorhood that they can.

Uncle Hugh, BP

1) Do you believe there are less good men (viable dating partners) to choose from in the dating population? If yes, how do you/did you overcome the odds?

Statistically speaking, yes, because there are fewer men, combined with the fact that women are unlikely to date down. I overcame the odds of there being less good men by being a heterosexual male.

2) Why do you believe there are less good men for women to choose from than good women for men to choose from?

There are fewer men overall, so yes. The problem, as many addressed, is women cut down their potential suitors by attaining advanced degrees, then view dating those without those degrees and career achievements as dating down. Additionally, just as men are less likely to settle when they don't feel they've achieved a high enough level of personal success, women are less likely to date a guy on route to personal success. They want the man that has already reached that level.

SMilez_920

"women are less likely to date a guy on route to personal success. They want the man that has already reached that level. "

Yes and no. I think this comes with age. I think the older a women gets the less time she feels she has to date a man trying to figure out his dream, or just beginning the route to success especially if she's been striving for excellence from early in her career. I’m 21 now so dating someone on the route to success is pretty normal because I’m in the same predicament. Now if I’m 30 and still single; while I don’t have a problem with daring a man trying to achieve a goal he will have to prove to me that he is serious about it and has a REAL plan to achieve it (no pipe dreams over here ).

GirlSixx

"Yes and no. I think this comes with age. I think the older a women gets the less time she feels she has to date a man trying to figure out his dream"

Exactly.. A woman's age plays a huge deciding factor.

Uncle Hugh, BP

3) Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material?

Less than 50% and as low as ten? If this is true, then why are women so averse to approaching men?

The other issue is nonviable men are far more likely to approach women. I can relate to this in the gym, where dynamics are slightly different. Any man with appreciable muscle mass knows that in the gym, women are more flirtatious and have no problem touching your arms or chest. Typically, these women tend to be…let's just say nonviable. The viable women do have more tact, as they usually feign ignorance and ask how to do an exercise versus feeling on your arm (the female equivalent of, "hey ma! let me holla at you!). The viability of the women that approach me in the gym is probably 20%, so the ladies may be telling the truth about their prospects.

Fellas, if you approached 10 women, how many of them would be, at minimum, girlfriend material?

When I was looking for a girlfriend, 100%. When I was not, probably 50-70%.

Naija

You got it, UHBP; you got it. I was standing in line for the bus the other day and some guy next to me thought "You skinny eh!" (repeated at a louder volume when he noticed that I had headphones on and was paying him no mind) was a way to get my attention and interest. It would've been fair to assume that he simply thought I needed a burger or five if he didn't have on what he must have thought was a sexy "I'm tryna tap that, whatchu sayin'?" look. Crusty old ass pot bellied man.

It really boils down to the type of people you're around. If you're a college-educated professional, you probably hang out with a lot of college-educated professionals (and Greeks). And the higher your education, the smaller your circle gets just by nature of what you do. So if more women are getting degrees and joining the paper chase, it makes sense that there would be a lot more women in these circles.

I think about when someone asks me if i know any "good" single guys that would be interested in meeting someone, and the good dudes I know are already in relationships, engaged, married, or just steadily playing the field…so my answer ends up being no. Not because the dudes are lame, but just because I can confidently recommend anybody from my circle(s) that's single and looking to commit. So maybe the answer is that there are less good men available as opposed to less good men period.
My recent post She Wanted My Tea. I Wanted My Lunch.

Larry

+1

jwoodny

I agree w/ this. For example, if you're a single, educated, averagely attractive woman living in Memphis, your opinion about the dating pool of eligible good black men is gonna be exponentially different than women who live in say Atlanta or Charlotte. I attach that to simply be reflective of the tangibility of higher education. Within city limits, there's far more public colleges in Atlanta and Charlotte than there are in Memphis. So if a degree is a must-have for you, you're hard-pressed to find that in a city that's slowly developing.

I agree with where one lives having a lot to do with who the number of "eligible" black men (and even women for that matter). Where I'm from, (Ratcheville, IL, USA) there are the slimmest of pickins. Women are hard-pressed to find a man with a job and no felonies, let alone a degree. Quite disheartening when you think about… but you can always move someplace else I guess.

"I think about when someone asks me if i know any "good" single guys that would be interested in meeting someone, and the good dudes I know are already in relationships, engaged, married, or just steadily playing the field…so my answer ends up being no."

And that's what it is Slim. In this conversatin the term "viable" seems much more appropriate, because we're not saying that if you're "already in relationships, engaged, married, or just steadily playing the field" that you're "bad" – but you're not a viable option for dating a relationship minded girl, and that's what we're really looking for i.e. "good".

So out of 10 of the dudes you hang out with, how many would you set your sister/good friendgirl up with? (I'm guessing a low number, that correlates pretty well with the number of viable advances out of 10 that women recieve). And conversely, if you as a single man looking for a relationship asked me to set you up with a friend of mine, I'd have more options for you…

starita34

I absolutely agree that there are more viable canidates for men than for women (especially when expectations are factored in).

(Lots of) Women are content with just one…it's just finding that one that can blow.

You make a good point on the 10 dudes I associate with. The number is probably the same…if not lower than the "viable" approach average we're seeing in the comments on today's post.
My recent post She Wanted My Tea. I Wanted My Lunch.

Bree

Exactly Slim….big ups for being honest to all the ladies who ask you if you have any good, decent, single friends. I hope they appreciate you for that……..Finally a man who knows what that really means!
I hate when you ask folks that and they hook you up wit somebody married, (but seperated), involved, in a situation, in a complicated situation, an azzhole, or a playa from the himalaya's.

starita34

lol and Romey Rome WOULD be the first dude to holla at you when you walked into a room too, lol 0/1 off the bat 🙂

Lets not forget more men die every year in the more dangerous, physically demanding necessary jobs.

Rich

I'd like clear definitions on :

1. "Good"
2. "Boyfriend material"
3. Viable

Ok, Go…..

Naija

The definition would presumably be different from one person to the next.

krystllyght

Okay ya'll gonna have to forgive me for my ignorance but when do you decide that they are not boyfriend/girlfriend material? Seemed like everybody was talking about the APPROACH but how do you know if they are or are not boyfriend/girlfriend material if you don't get to know them first? Aside from the dudes who are already taken and the ones who don't come correct in the first place (i.e. the "I would f*ck the sh*t out of you" guys), how do you know unless you chance it?

Well, in my case, I honestly do not get approached by men that much at all. I get catcalls, but it never goes anywhere from there. Then there's what type of dude DOES approach me- I get mostly "reachers". Homeless. Morbidly obese. CornerMen. Zoot Suits. Recovering Addicts. Older than old. Recently released. The occasional normal dude. All the men I have gone out with in the past year except for ONE I've met via mutual friends on social networking sites. **shrug**

starita34

THIS.

The last two men that asked me out had between them 11 children.
Like I told them, children are a blessing, but I want a family of my own too and they have MUCH too large of a head start for me.

To make it to husband material, I'll admit, I'm picky, no doubt. But it's so easy to dismiss most of the men that approach me, they just make it so easy. From the disrespectful approaches to the lack of common sense to the lack of teeth or abundance of offspring…it may sound bad to say 1 or 2 out of 10 is viable, but it's not an exaggeraion at all.

And all that is part of the total "approach" Krys – it's not that we eliminate them on sight, but within the first few minutes of conversation (or lack of conversation) during the approach…like I don't need a date to know that we aren't compatible if your opening line is "so you trying to eff?"…

krystllyght

Okay I see. I thought the "approach" was just when a dude comes up and asks what your interests are, who you be with, things to make you smile, what numbers to dial, you gon' be here for a while? lol
I thought what you were talking about was just like the initial things you talk about in the beginning of a relationship. Dudes just walk up and volunteer the information that they have ten kids? I wouldn't really know how it's done these days. One dude did just walked up to me and offer up the fact that he's jobless but he's a student and blah blah. I was stunned and wasn't sure how long he expected me to stand there and listen to his little monologue. Finally, he asked for my number and I was like nah, I'm married. He got mad and was like you should've been done said that. I'm like I didn't have a chance. You should've asked that in the first place. From the way ya'll talking today though, maybe they don't really care.

WisdomIsMisery

Okay I see. I thought the "approach" was just when a dude comes up and asks what your interests are, who you be with, things to make you smile, what numbers to dial, you gon' be here for a while?

Yo someone escort krystllSmalls from the paint, please.

As a side note, I have noticed a pattern of women volunteering the number of kids they have upon first interaction. IDK why. Maybe they think I'll run in the opposite direction or maybe they just want to let me know their situation from jump…. I do prefer women without kids but it's not a deal breaker…unless you have 3+ from 5 different baby daddies…

starita34

What usually happens is they ask ME how many kids I have and when I answer none and they do a lil dance and literally fist bump me, my eyebrow o' concern raises and I ask the question in return.

I don't guard my phone number with the voracity that some women do, I feel like getting to know one another is greatly hindered if they can't contact me ever again, lol – but in general, before the math is exchanged, I know some basic things about the man…often they ask where I work, how many children I have (not IF I have children, lol) and what I like to do for fun and I parrot those questions back at them. That's plenty of time for them to eff up, lol

Bree

"What usually happens is they ask ME how many kids I have and when I answer none and they do a lil dance and literally fist bump me, my eyebrow o' concern raises and I ask the question in return." LMBAO @ this Star…..I can totally relate. I also get pure D shock and disbelief and then….."so what's wrong wit you? Why you don't have no kids?" I say, "cause I've never been married and choose not to start off being a single parent if I can help it." Then, "Oh Ok, thats whats up"

krystllyght

Okay I can get with that. It's been a while for me so the conversation is over just as quickly as it begins. I get approached though and if I weren't married, some of the guys would have a chance, maybe 7 of 10, but I guess I don't really know. The approach is just the first hurdle, it's the stuff that comes after it that would build the relationship.

Larry

"Seemed like everybody was talking about the APPROACH but how do you know if they are or are not boyfriend/girlfriend material if you don't get to know them first?"

*Walks by large white elephant and sits in chair and chills. Waits for response*

krystllyght

"What da hell ya jus' call me?"

starita34

lololol

krystllyght

You know I had to jump on my chance to quote Odessa.

Dr. J

I agree with "men are less picky" but I think this is the utmost wack juice on the part of women. Listen, I don't expect many people to agree with me. If you ask the married women and the women who are in relationships, they will tell you there are good men out there you just have to find them. Life is not a breadline. You actually have to go out there and do your thing. A wack dude in a roomful of hoes will think there are no women to have sex with because he just can't do it. It's the same for women. The women who are out here representing the top tier of their gender are not finding this to be hard. And just to follow up on that point, i'm not talking about degrees and wealth. I'm talking about those women who look in the mirror and know for a fact that they are the creme of the crop and they would make a good ass woman for a man. They walk around knowing that they can pull any man they want. And as the article said, it's not about how many good men are out there… you only want one. When someone uses that excuse that there aren't any good men or not as many good men, I hear that to mean, she doesn't think she has the quan to get the man she wants and needs more chances.

Agreed. I meet great men every single day. I'm just not compatible with most of them, but that doesn't mean they are not amazing dudes. Mind you, I said I MEET them, that does not mean they APPROACH me- because they really DON'T. Whole other story.
FYI- when I'm speaking compatibility, it's only 2 things- attraction, and equal minds. Everything else is a bonus. First, I have to be attracted to you at some level. It varies per individual, so I can't say I have a height/shade/etc preference. Second-and this is the hardest- we have to be of an equal mind. As you can tell, I have a pretty unique sense of humour. I can't spend my entire day explaining my jokes to you. In the like minded vein you have to want out of me what I can give to you. I get really turned off by guys that just expect me to fall back into a "pretty role" in the passenger seat of their random "luxury" vehicle (or, just the train).

Bitchujusmad.com

I vehemently agree with this. I was about to reply to the post that if a group of 10 men approach me, and only one is date-able that's all it would take for me to get a date, so that works.
My recent post Black Women Have the Ugliest Engagement Rings

jwoodny

"When someone uses that excuse that there aren't any good men or not as many good men, I hear that to mean, she doesn't think she has the quan to get the man she wants and needs more chances."

^^^ Never really considered that concept, but I suppose it's pretty accurate in many instances of "why he chose her and not me"

This. Why contemplate on such things when you know what you have to offer is very much in demand? One of my mentors is in her 50's and she pulls only quality men of all age. Why? She doesn't sit back and overthink the hell out of things. Why theorize, project or follow trends when you can very much design yourself to be an outlier? I believe I will have what I want and it's just that simple. I strongly believe also the notion, people may not always remember what you say or what you do, but always how you made them feel. Focus on what you have to offer a person.

This is an excellent point J and one that I think often goes overlooked – perhaps because it's not representative of the "fairy tale" ending most men and women desire.

"If you ask the married women and the women who are in relationships, they will tell you there are good men out there you just have to find them. Life is not a breadline. You actually have to go out there and do your thing. and The women who are out here representing the top tier of their gender are not finding this to be hard."

I feel a number of women argue on behalf of all women when we are not talking about all women. I/we simply use the term "women" to describe the gender and because qualifying the term with "most" and "some" every single time is pointless. No man or woman can speak for all men and women. That should be relatively intuitive but the point seems lost on people who debate in terms of 100% because they can identify an exception (.000001%) this one time at band camp.

That said, my post(s) – and likely the staff as a group but I don't want to speak for them – is referring to the rule not the exceptions. If you, as a woman (or man), are perfectly content with your status, achievements and successes in dating and beyond then more power to you. I thank you for reading but you are not who I am talking to.

Take this post for example: If you are perfectly happy with the men/women you've met or the man/woman you are with, then honestly, you don't need to change anything and this post is not for you. However, if you are a woman/man who is dis-satisfied with your relationship status, achievements, and successes in dating and beyond, it seems illogical to keep doing the exact same thing you have always done while expecting different results.

Let me state this plainly: If you are happy with the type of men you attract and that approach you, GREAT! However, if you are not, it seems to me that you might want to make a change of some kind because you are not happy with your results and I doubt applying the same formula to the same problem will ever return a different result…namely, because that doesn't make any damn sense.

So whatever that change entails, such as joining a dating site, approaching men, going to different venues outside of your status quo, etc is fine. What a resolution clearly does not entail is sitting on your ass expecting life to change on your behalf. That's the equivalent of being unemployed – assuming you do not want to be unemployed – and sitting in your house waiting for someone to knock on your front door and offer you your dream job. Sure, it's possible, but it is not very probable.

I don’t agree with this. Surprise! Well I kinda do, but let me talk about where my perspective differes. The ladies I know that are dissatisfied are always changing something up. However, my insider perspective has me convinced they need to stop trying and chill. They need to figure themselves out because oftentimes its not about attracting someone…its about krrping a person interested and/or keeping that person vs running them away. Lol. This is what they don’t do successfully. Imho for a million reasons but partially because they got issues that they need to take time and self-reflection to address.

I agree with you otherwise. Just being difficult. Lol.

Teflon Mom

I agree but I would modify this sentence: "If you ask the married women and the women who are in relationships, they will tell you there are good men out there you just have to find them." I'm anti-approach, so I would say that as women we have to put ourselves in a space/place to be found. I see a lot of women who think that all/most men are wack because they keep entertaining ain't ish men.

Dr. J

I didn't really mean for women to approach men. I'm actually against that strategy altogether. I agree with the putting yourself in the way of traffic strategy more.

Teflon Mom

Wait a second….aren't YOU the one who wrote a post about this? Something about hanging out at MBA school or something? Well dam now I have to credit you for the idea, lol. Go head and link to it. It was good stuff.

Dr. J

I know what post you're talking about, but I can't remember the title offhand. But yeah, I did write a post about places to find good men. I'll see if I can't find it by Friday.

WisdomIsMisery

I agree with the putting yourself in the way of traffic strategy more.

I can co-sign this. It's another means of accomplishing the same goal without putting yourself all the way out there, since so many women are against approaching. Perhaps I underestimated the difficulty of a woman saying, "Hello" to a man (see below).

Busy day, so I'll try to circle back around lunch and at the end of the day to comment more. Below are my (long winded) additional thoughts on the questions and items I didnt/couldnt cover in the post due to length (pause)…

1) Do you believe there are less good men (viable dating partners) to choose from in the dating population? If yes, how do you/did you overcome the odds? I'm starting to believe this is the case based on women's feedback. They have no reason to lie. The follow-up question doesn't apply because, in theory, as a man there are no odds for me to overcome. As far as women go, I can only offer opinions and advice.

If this is the case and most people recognize the situation, then the "simple" answer seems to be approach men you're interested in to better your odds. However, a number of women are simply against approaching men in any capacity, period. I have a number of theories on that but I think the main culprit is women don't want to put themselves in a position to be denied. Of course, many will say it's the man's role to lead and maybe it is – but that's really nothing more than an accepted gender role, which is fine, I guess. Note: Please don't quote the bible in response here. I'm fairly certain the bible (or God) has nothing against you approaching a man you are interested in and saying "Hello," at minimum. Greeting a man of interest does not usurp his role as a "leader." If you disagree, we can agree to disagree – but you are wrong. 🙂

Regardless, this accepted secondary role runs contrary to many of the other accomplishments of the educated and upwardly mobile women that not only read this site, as someone mentioned, but exist in America considering this is the most educated and well paid population of women, ever (a pattern that will continue). Despite all these successes, when it comes to relationships, many of us (men and women) hold on to the comfortable gender structures of the past. It's interesting but I'm not a sociologist so I'll drop it.

2) Why do you believe there are less good men for women to choose from than good women for men to choose from? In addition to the relative population attributes I outlined in the post, I actually think the primary factor, which is why I ended the post on this point, is that women evaluate men differently than men evaluate women. As I said above, despite all the progression on both sides, most women still want men to "lead." Beyond personality, a number tie this to education and income, which is fine. But, maybe by the law of unintended consequence, I guess a number of women aren't accounting for the fact that they want equal rights to education and income. Thus, if women are more educated and make more money, eventually they will close the gap with men. If you want an equal, fine, but if you want someone "above" you that means if you have a bachelors, he needs a masters? If you now make $50k he has to make $100k? …doesn't make a lot of sense. Really all it shows is women are improving and men are remaining the same.

Overall, it's interesting the weight (some) women place on higher education when higher education in and of itself does not equate to higher income, so I personally don't understand the correlation. I actually understand women more when they have an income requirement relative to a degree requirement. Further, the idea that because you obtain a degree, dating men who do not have a degree is "dating down" doesn't make sense. Conversely, men with degrees have dated women without degrees for centuries – and I imagine they will continue to do so.

I'm not trying to downplay the role of a college education. I'm just not sure I understand the specific correlation between having a college education and dating down, especially when the average college student will graduate with $25,000 in debt. I have my opinions on college but I'll save that rant for another day lol

Fellas, if you approached 10 women, how many of them would be, at minimum, girlfriend material? Answered this question in the post.

I am going to weigh in on one point here… (my disclaimer: I'm aware that I am Canadian and therefore my opinion only matters in half measures, but…) I don't believe that women want an educated man based solely on their ability to "out-earn" them, so to speak. For me, anyway, the education (isn't actually a requirement) however – the common background it provides is the requirement. Women are a more "intellectual" species, we (theoretically) want to connect with our partner on a cerebral plane, this can be accomplished through a common level of education. If we're quoting imaginary stats today, then, if it's hard to find a suitable man (1 in 10) then what are the odds of finding a high school (only) educated man who can discuss the wonders of the world with me of the 10 in every 100 that approaches?
Just a thought.

Tea

I concur. People really try to downplay this and simplify it into a “he gotta have xyz degree” when its really, he gotta be able to keep ME intellectually stimulated (past 5 mins), which I have found to be a challenging enough task for folks with college and grad degrees.

Bitchujusmad.com

I have a question really, pertaining to #2…I know the media and us as a people love harping on black women not dating outside of their race, and I hate to be cliche, but many black men being deemed "eligible to date" survey a room, and if they were likely to approach 10 women, how many of them would be black? And its more likely that it will be a mixture of women, in any given place, whereas a black woman would likely ONLY be approached by black men, or a very small number of men outside of her race, with the majority being black. Socially, black women are used to being approached. You said in this post, that women typically want men to take the lead in dating…I don't know many women taking the reigns and approaching a man she finds attractive/appealing. Would women have better luck if they were doing the approaching as opposed to waiting to be approached? Would they be able to find more eligible men if/when they did approach men, they weren't all black?

1) Do you believe there are less good men (viable dating partners) to choose from in the dating population? If yes, how do you/did you overcome the odds?

I believe there are plenty of decent men around, that, if they wanted to, could be possible boyfriends/husbands. Given, however, that 89.92% of men in my age bracket aren't at all interested in those things, and given that I have no interest in dating a man not interested in those things, yes, there are FEWER viable men for me to date. I believe you don't overcome those odds, you just deal with them and hope to eventually meet and older man who's realized he wants to settle down, or a younger man who's on your same settling-down trajectory.

2) Why do you believe there are less good men for women to choose from than good women for men to choose from?

Lots of reasons. Prison, violence, disease that disproportionately affects men, the common thought that settling down early means missing out on something, the belief that someone better will always come along, no matter how good the girl you gave up, the belief that settling down is SETTLING, the belief that marriage is a negative, etc.

3) Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material?

I'd say 0-1 of those men would be interested in being boyfriends, and therefore 0-1 of those men would be even boyfriend material.

If it makes you feel any better I'm in your age range born in 1980 living in manhattan with my own apt and working a wall street job already have a BA applying to B-schools now, and I just had a woman I had been seeing since dec 11' tell me we should see each other anymore because I want a relationship and she doesn't. Better yet I played the husband role painted her new apt paid her phone bill and then this. So nice guys do finish last and when men get taken advantage of its us playing the fool we don't get to blame its just our own fault .

Sorry i am venting on your post but Thought you might want to know it goes both ways.

I also have a word press blog under my name ace liburd read it if you enjoyed this

Just to hit a point on a very basic level, I DO NOT APPROACH MEN! Sure, I'll give all the eye contact and green light their little hearts can stand, but by no means will I approach them no matter how many blog writers tell me I should initiate.

Based on my experiences, a lot of men work on technicalities which make (some of them) dishonest people. Say for instance if a guy approaches a woman, and she is in a relationship or dating a few different men, she's willing to put that out there. Men on the other hand will use a wide range of technicalities.

and so forth. A lot of women get played when they approach. Men are so thrown off by a woman approaching them that they let their intrigue of seeing where it could lead get in the way of disclosing truths about his dating life. Meanwhile, I hold onto the theory that if a man approaches me, he's single and making a conscious effort to get to know me, or up to no good and trying to add me to his "collection". Yes, I'm aware the odds are the same if **I** were approaching HIM… but at the end the day, if he does end up being a loser with a wife, 2.5 children, a dog and a picket fence… I won't feel like I was the one who went after a married man. If he's doing the approaching, he's coming in with full knowledge of his situation and CHOSE to be deceptive.

" Men are so thrown off by a woman approaching them that they let their intrigue of seeing where it could lead get in the way of disclosing truths about his dating life. "

THIS.

SMilez_920

It's about how you approach. I don’t think men want you to go up to them ask for their phone number and set up a time and place to meet for a date. As far as men withholding information, that’s neither here nor there. If a man is a liar he's a liar regardless of if you approach him or if he approaches you. While I do believe some men work on jaded technicalities, I think some men just know how to keep their options open until they really find someone worth putting their all into.

Ok, I'll bite. How do you approach so it doesn't come off as you seeming overly aggressive, only interested in sex and trying to "cut to the chase", etc.? Also, how do you approach men so you know that THEY'RE interested? If men have the three foot rule, you're in their three feet and they didn't approach, that means they're not into you. How are you helping things by forcing the issue?

Babes

I cosign with this…

In my mind (when a women is sure to put herself within 3 ft), a man will go after what he wants. When he doesn't go after it, maayybee…. <—- (or is that not sound logic?)

starita34

Exactly, like men tell us all the time: if he wanted you, he'd be with you.

Men can grow on women, women don't tend to grow on men. That's the basis behind men doing the approaching in my mind.

Also, men aren't (usually) going to say no to the possibility of some free chex either, so if they think there's a chance to hit, odds are they'll play along til they get some or get bored. Most women, if they don't see you as a viable candidate, won't entertain your advances.

How do you approach so it doesn't come off as you seeming overly aggressive, only interested in sex and trying to "cut to the chase", etc.? Also, how do you approach men so you know that THEY'RE interested? Easy, you take a chance. There is no real way to "know." What you're describing is the reality men live in day in and day out. It's very rare for a man to know a woman's level of interest in him, unless said woman literally waved him over with her index finger while tonguing down a cherry from her Cosmo.

This is how I decide if I'm going to approach a woman: 1) Question: Does she look good to meand doesn't look like she'll be a complete bitch? Answer: Yes = I approach. It's really that simple. As I said in my own comment to this post, I think women just don't want to put themselves in a position to be turned down. I think that's all it boils down to.

As far as a holistic view on this entire subject of men not stepping up or whatever else, speaking for self (and probably most men), as I said on Twitter last week, there is only one type of woman I don't approach – and by extension, won't end up in a relationship with. A woman I'm not interested in. Further, there is only one type of women I've ever approached – and by extension, ever been in a relationship with a woman I was interested in.

Thus, if I am interested in you, it doesn't matter if I approach you or you approach me. That has less than -1 barring on my level of interest or non-interest. I can assure you if an Alicia Keys/Gabrille Union/Christina Hendricks/Sofia Vergara prototype walked up to me, I am not going to be worried about if she is "seemingly overly aggressive, only interested in sex, or trying to "cut to the chase," etc."' I will engage her in a conversation like a normal human being and then I will proceed accordingly.

I really don't care about the plight of men knowing whether women are interested in them before approaching, because I feel like their are equivalent struggles for women in the dating game. I also feel like most women make it abundantly clear if they're interested in a man, so, I'm not really sure where the difficulty in deciphering this fact comes in.

But I also notice you skipped over the last part of the question which was:

If you approach attractive women in your three foot radius, I'm IN your three foot radius and you haven't approached, how am I helping matters? Didn't you make your attraction level clear by NOT approaching? Now I'm approaching and what happens then?

WisdomIsMisery

To be clear, my discussing the "plight" of men is not meant to downplay the "struggles" of women. It's not an inverse relationship. It's also not a comparison. We can do that all day and in my opinion it's pointless. That's not the way I discuss issues. "I also feel like most women make it abundantly clear if they're interested in a man, so, I'm not really sure where the difficulty in deciphering this fact comes in." I respect your opinion on this but as a man who has approached women for the greater part of his life, I disagree. Anywho…

If you approach attractive women in your three foot radius, I'm IN your three foot radius and you haven't approached, how am I helping matters? Didn't you make your attraction level clear by NOT approaching? Now I'm approaching and what happens then? We honestly seem to be approaching the circular portion of the debate, so I might have to tap out soon but perhaps I'm not being clear on my end. 1) You've already admitted you prefer not to approach men, so I assume we're speaking in hypotheticals here. 2) If you read above, I also said I approach based on if I think you're approachable. If you're sitting there with an ice-grill, you might be the nicest woman on Earth but to be honest, to me, you come off as someone who is, well, not so nice looking. It's possible, yes, I'm not attracted to you but like most things in life, the only want to know for sure is to find out, which goes back to my point – hence the circular portion of the debate – that women seem to simply prefer not to place themselves in a position where they may be turned down. Yes, this is a risk and it is your right and choice not to be in said position. As I said in response to Dr. J, if you are perfectly fine with how dating works for you, then you have no reason to change (and neither do men, hence my 3 foot rule). However, if you are unsatisfied with the 'dating game' then applying the same formula to the same problem while expecting a different result doesn't make a lot of sense. That's why I'm making these various suggestions – and that is all they are at the end of the day: suggestions, based on my opinion, for fixing what some (not you) have identified as a problem.

monique

This kinda confused me abit. From my reading of Dr. Jay's comment, I gleaned that athough the numbers may not be in my favor when it comes to finding love that should still not be a deterrent. You, however, seem to emphasize in this post that the numbers determine the probability of finding love. You even boastful stated that the odds were pretty much in your favor when it came to your female counterparts. However to defend your position to J, you then change your position to people having to work on themselves, i.e.change locale, attitude and etc. So is it a numbers problem or not or do you hate to see a light shed brighter than yours in your very on post. No disrespect but I watch the way people tip toe in the comment section when it come to your post to adjust to your level of sensitivity. I know you are going to blow me out by either insulting my intellect or offer some convoluted explaination to explain the first convoluted explaination or that I just misunderstood your position. Like I said no disrespect. Yeah the odds maybe in your favor when it comes to getting the "one," but that's only half the battle. What about being able to keep the "one" ?

jwoodny

I'll go out on a idyllic limb and say that guys only ride w/ the technicalities because in their mind it's not a lie. If you ask a guy who's juggling 3 or 4 women, "do you have a girlfriend?", he'll say no because he doesn't (again in his mind). But if you become a social media lurk and find out that despite what he said, this 1 particular chick keeps popping up in his tagged photos/recent images tab, then to you that implies he's w/ someone. I guess that's where the differences between what's dating and what's a relationship come in.

I know outright liars exist (per the Single Sam series), but I don't think it's as common as women try to make it out to be. I see them as extreme outliers
My recent post So how did the Giants do in the draft?

starita34

if only they were… *frowns*

Naija

Right? From the kid next door who finally lets it slip that he has a gf ("It doesn't matter if you know now anyway since you're not going to date me") to the guy trying to get to know me and planning a trip down approximately one month from his wedding (which he failed spectacularly to inform me about) day, to the…should I go on?

Just as WIM makes it clear that he's been dating women his entire life and may have more insight into that life than we do, I think men should probably lend a bit of credence to the claims women make about the lies that we get exposed to. There was a time long ago when I would never have imagined that I had to ask anyone about being single if he were approaching me. Ha. Now I have to consider whether or not I believe him if he tells me he is.

Babes

Exactly!! I had this happen to me recently and I'm like wait whaaaa? Why are you trying to take me out when you have a girlfriend and an 8-month-old at home?? No thank you! Now that's the first thing I wanna know before you even tell me what your name is.

Naija

Yeah man, it's rough out there. I still don't think I should have to specifically ask if someone is available if they are stepping up to me, but whatevs.

Teyana

Im from South Africa and thats where im currently based. Its always interesting for me to read this blog and find out that women in America (the Western world) are willing to date down! In most African countries; that is unheard of and still taboo.A woman with degree and a professional qualification, is seen as desperate if she is not dating someone who is her academic equal or superior. Parents WILL get involved!!
It has to do with the difference in economies, blue collar jobs dont pay as much in Southern Africa (Ive grew up and lived in 4 of the 15 and most of my friends are from this region- so its pretty homogenous) as they probably would in the States. On the other hand, what you would term our Ivy League universities are not as expensive as what you pay. The most expensive university i know in South Africa would charge at most USD 8-9000.00 a year for local students, which pales in comparison to Harvard,etc. Although not everyone has the means, its accessible if you really have to desire to have tertiary education.

I will be starting my masters programme in the USA next year so it will be interesting to see, firsthand, what the dynamics there are like.

Uncle Hugh, BP

Teyana: "I will be starting my masters programme in the USA next year so it will be interesting to see, firsthand, what the dynamics there are like."

Brace yourself.

Teyana

I just want to make it clear to readers that my comment is extremely narrow and was to fit within the context of this conversation. Africa; Southern Africa; South Africa; Gauteng; Johannesburg; Sandton is has such unique variables- no one voice can speak on it and encapsulate any topic; especially not education.

To put my comment within a slightly more fitting context- but not still very subjective and extremely narrow; the figure of 8-9000 USD is tuition fees for a year, for a bachelors/undergraduate degree at one of the most expensive universities. Secondly, it is very difficult to go to varsity and leave debt free, the loan repayments are very minimal but many people i know have managed to flee from Governments radar.

Back to the topic of dating; again i dont know what all African women do, but within my social circle which is professional/ university graduates- women are becoming braver and approaching men. My own view is still traditional and i would rather have a man come to me!

WisdomIsMisery

Welcome to the SBM comments! (at least you're new to me). 1) Thanks for the comment! 2) Thanks for this perspective, it's welcome. 3) I'd def be interested in seeing how the dynamics translate when you're in the states and pursuing your masters. Hope to see you around or you could toss me an email @ same name @gmail.com. I think that may make an interesting series / juxtaposition.

And, of course, good luck!

Naija

We in the African diaspora still deal with parents, extended family, and family friends who will make their voices heard if we decide to seriously consider people who have not achieved a bachelor's degree at the minimum (for those of us who are academia-minded). The mentality is still well and alive, and backed up with sociological studies of the potential struggles of partnerships in which the woman is more educated and advancing in the white collar world.

Question to all the men who supposedly don't approach women because they're so hot and awesome that women approach them in droves: What do you do when you actually like a woman? Still no approach? I'm just curious…

peter parker

Actually I go after what I want so I approach, but do it in a way that represents the type of man I am. A confidant brother, a little cockiness, and honest approach. No games, lines, or corny verses.

Dr. J

Can I just say that men who don't approach women don't necessarily think they're so hot and awesome?

Not speaking for myself, but if you are a single guy in DC or Atlanta, do the math for yourself:

Women outnumber men 6-to-1.
Take men who don't like women and general lame/herb/noodle type dudes who women don't even want anyway… that number is like 24-to-1.

When it's 24 women to every 1 good dude in your environment it's like fishing in a school. Women have to be more competitive and so the men just sit back and let them come after them. What i'm noticing from dudes nowadays is they focus on being a good man or appearing to be a good man because if so women will try and get down. But they don't think they're hot and awesome, just in higher demand. (<— that's what they think, not me.)

Defining it in the broadest way possible there are a great many good men out here. Without even getting to any sort of standards however, how many good men actually want to be in a relationship? Want and relationship are the key words in that sentence. I do not mean those as synonyms for "willing" and "dating". If most of the people that fit into the bracket that you're attracted to don't want to the two most fundamental things, then whether or not they're good men is of little relevance.

Simply put, there are far more women that want to be in relationships with men versus the opposite. I mean I can think of two male commenters who have said that they want a relationship in the handful of months I've been reading this site.

Good point and I personally agree with you. Although, judging by some of the comments on Slim's post (linked in today's post), I think some women equate a "good" man with a man who wants to be in a relationship. I don't know what that says for what a "bad man" is and I'm not going to guess…

I tend to believe, foolishly I’m told, that if you’re the woman for him, he will want a relationship with you. If he doesn’t, its cause he’s just not THAT into you. So the whole idea of a man not wanting a relationship is a myth. It’s personal. Hard to accept, but i think it comes down to that.

bellatrice1

"Do you believe there are less good men (viable dating partners) to choose from in the dating population?
I wouldn't say there are less "good" men to date."

There's less good men to marry. It's easy for me to get a date. I could have a date every day for the rest of the year if I wanted to. It's finding a "good" man that's ready and willing to commit that's difficult.

Good is relative. Right now, "good" for me includes ready to settle down and marry. If he's not, then that already excludes him from my list. Therefore, as a result of me adding this requirement to my list, of course my dating pool has gotten considerably smaller. However, I'm ok with that because I'm not dating just to be dating, and I won't waste time on someone who is.

bellatrice1 you hit the proverbial "nail on the head." Simply put all you said is spot on.
And this is something men don't really comment on and/or address too much. But this
right here is the main issue.

Paul B

One thing I’ve noticed is a lack of a consistent standard of what a good viable dating partner in the first place (also that there are differing standards at various points in life). If at certain points in life, Mr. Wrong is the ideal because he puts it down right, (mainly because he devotes his time solely to that development), then that removes certain options out from play. And because people don’t make choices with outcomes in mind, when the outcomes arrive, they are caught off guard. And sometimes, consequences from a bad decision at one point in life won’t be felt until later on, even when you’re not at that place anymore. The dating game is full of those kinds of consequences.

Jay

For me, it boils down to your last paragraph. After entertaining the three or four good men out of the ten who approach me, then doing the preliminary screenings and narrowing it down to one or two, the commitment factor becomes the issue. When I say commitment, I mean just he and me, exclusively within a reasonable timeframe (before I feel the need to ask, "Where is this going?" Because in most cases, if I have to ask, I won’t. I’ll just fade away…)

Since living in Atlanta I've dated quite the variety: professional athlete, musician, student, father, divorced, cable guy, non-black, long distance, native, transplant… Several, I have even approached. There are plenty of good men out there. Good men who want to commit? Now, that's a horse of a different tail feather.

JJ

Men don’t really approach me they just stare. Does anyone know what that could mean?

Dr. J

You might be really attractive. Men get intimidated by women like that.

As far as this education standard/requirement :There are not that many people getting " college educated" like it appears. And thats with every race. its at 30% in the US for bachelor degrees right now. That leaves 70% without one. In the entire nation….. People are severly limiting there own options of whats considered "good" if education in the form of an advanced credential is a focal point to obtaining a person of percieved "quality". Lets not forget the useless Degrees.

lifecoachtisha

Dating is just so over-rated these days, especially for a woman like myself in her early thirties. I meet GREAT men all the time!!! However, as great as they are…they're still not great for me. The dating game is a catastrophe, now I choose to just "hang out" with different acquaintances.

I have zero tolerance for the text/instead of call business (I will not reply after the first-time), making me a last minute date option (sorry I'm busy), late night phone calls (straight to voicemail). It seems the MEN I encounter just are ill-mannered and exude flat out rude behavior [because most often than not its tolerated by soooooo many women]. Personally speaking, if I were looking for a commitment, the pool of candidates would be quite slim. Since being a mom, working professional, social butterfly, and go-getter (w/ a business venture) is all apart of my resume… life is keeping me well occupied and I'm fulfilled right now so I don't even mind.

WisdomIsMisery

I have zero tolerance for the text/instead of call business (I will not reply after the first-time) If I may inquire – this comes up a lot – do you inform them that you prefer phone calls over text or do you assume by this age (whatever age that may be) they should simply know better? – anyone should feel free to respond to this question.

SMilez_920

I would think men in their late 20's early 30's would kind of know that just texting a women you are really trying to get to know wouldn’t be the best route. I’m only saying this because most men that age range in their early dating life didn’t have text so a phone call was the only way he could talk to the woman he's interested in. Now the younger guys I can understand their whole texting instead of calling but I will kindly mention to a guy that is trying to pursue me that I like talking on the phone I feel text are only for quick questions or situations where a phone call is not suitable.

You can't make assumptions. If someone is used to sending text messages and has never been told otherwise, why would they do anything else. There are women out there who don't like the phone either, but because they're spending time with the dude in person, this is a non-issue.

Unless you're under 16 and not in the work force, most people are aware that important transactions are not taken care of via text. Text is, actually, the least common denominator of communication. Some women, then find it insulting that some men would use this type of communication (on a device that ALSO makes calls) to ask them out on a date. It can come off as the man saying she's not even worth a call.

Dr. J

That texting rule is hurting women right now. I told one of the women i'm advising right now, "Don't get mad that he texts you instead of calling, use that to your advantage. Now he can't ever say he's too busy to talk. You can't spend 30 seconds to send a text message?"

Text messaging actually is called SMS… Short Message Service. All those people who say they don't have time to date or they are really busy at work or with family… that's BS, you can send a text message.

I agree with you Dr. Jay . Men/women have no excuse to not communicate with someone they’re supposedly interested in due to being busy for the most part. There’s text, phone calls, bbm, Facebook, twitter, Email. So if he’s not hitting you up he’s not too busy he’s not that into you.

I suppose this is a good argument if it's either text or nothing, but if you just barely have time to text, when are you gonna squeeze a date in?

I remember I met this dentist at a party once. We had a great time and planned to go out. But on the date he kept talking about how busy he was and how it was getting late and blah blah blah. I finished the date and still was hopeful because I'd been dating flighty musicians and thought a dentist would be a nice, stable guy.

Nope. Dude would text me like every day, just to talk. He'd NEVER call. Dude lived ONE subway stop away but a month after our first date and we still hadn't reunited. Not even plans. I thought "he's just not that into me", but he'd just keep on texting.

Finally I had to make it plain: "Yo, WTF are we doing? Why am I spending time texting a phantom I saw once at a party and once on a date a month ago? You get days off and spend them to YOURSELF? What are you, Obama's dentist? Just admit you have a live-in gf and know that I'm no one's girl on the side." (And all this happened via TEXT!)

Wouldn't you know dude still tried to go on and on about how I wasn't being understanding of his busy schedule, and yet never point blank answered whether he was single. My father got mad at me for even BOTHERING texting that dude. Months later, dude tried AGAIN, saying can we give it another try. Heck nah.

And THAT is one of the several reasons women have to be leery of text-only men.

sidorajewels

i totally agree with you, you said a mouthful 🙂

SMilez_920

To me there are good men out there who are open to exploring a relationship. You just have to stop looking in the same direction to find one. As a woman I want a man that can provide for me reasonably and legally even if I can provide for myself. I know a man with a good blue collar job can do that as well as be a good man to me over all. I think some women adjust the standards in the wrong categories. For example she might not look at the manager of the City bus company who is nice, attentive, funny and attractive because he didn’t go to college, yet she will give the 6’3, handsome, chocolate rising CEO who only texts, pays her minimal attention at times, and doesn’t really cater to her emotional needs a chance because he fits those superficial other standards.

Dr. J

Another note from my weekend, I said this in a conversation…

"Don't get mad at the fact that men/women always spend more time chasing the wrong girl. Think about it, our whole lives we been trained to be that way. We spend more time on the basketball court or trying to become a rapper than we do in our books. We spend more time dreaming about the high life than we do in our reality."

I think it's human nature. The only thing you want to do as a man/woman is not spend too much time chasing your dream that you ruin your chance at reality. This happens to women more than men. I've seen chicks who are like, "I'm ready to settle down and find a good man." But like the men is looking at them like, "Yeah but you just spent the last 6 years of your life acting like a groupie or golddigger." And it slips up on women too… they don't think nothing of it, but men do. I had to let a girl know that our dating situation would never proceed past the level of sex off the strength of the only thing I remember about her was that… 1) She was bad, 2) She was the type of girl who was always in VIP, and 3) She thought she was dating some promoter dude but she really wasn't. I was just like, I know you ready for a change now, but you shouldn't have been ruining your image like that for years. That's your image, so when I have you on my arm, people will be like, "Isn't that that girl who used to…"

And somebody about to say, "That's wrong Jay, everybody deserve second chances." And i'll address that with this right here…

1) You're right, everyone does deserve second chances. The problem is, it's women out here who don't need a second chance, they never put themselves in a position to need that.
2) To me it's like forgiving a sin. Like if you ask for forgiveness of a sin and then keep on doing it, I don't think you're worthy of forgiving. And for like every woman out there, they knew that most men judge women on their image and they wanted to have fun anyway. So it's like, I can't really be all that sorry for you if I know that I tell every young girl I know, "Don't be in them clubs and ish from 22-28, no man will marry your ass."

I'm not saying this only applies to women. It happens to men too. That's why you have to be careful not to get labeled a manwhore or complete zero who has nothing going for himself. If you spend 5-6 years of your life never have the same girl on your arm twice, you're going to have to work damn hard to get a woman to trust that she won't be next. If you spend 5-6 years being broke… well you probably still broke.

lifecoachtisha

[And you may, lol] WIM…I learned a long time ago never to assume. I have no problems with being communicative upfront and telling a man my preference is a telephone call. In the same regards Im very sensitive to the fact that text messages are (some) mens comfort zone, most likely if they really like a female they fear saying the wrong thing or being viewed as overly anxious. With that in mind text message is the limiting means to minimize messing it up before it even starts. So I am definitely understanding of this, however, what you set the tone for from the beginning is the treatment you will receive for the duration. #JMHO

@Dr. J – I respect you for 17th & K Street {Quan Quan and more Quan!!!} but Im going to need you to fall back with that advice mister 🙂

Dr. J

I just feel like the times are changing. It's like the temperature dropped and women are still standing around in bikinis cause they like beach weather. I think all women should dictate their rules about courting, i'm just trying to offer the other side. Turn a negative into a positive.

lifecoachtisha

I feel you Doc, Im all about positives. Still, here in NYC we give these fella's an inch and they take a mile. #JustBecause

WisdomIsMisery

however, what you set the tone for from the beginning is the treatment you will receive for the duration. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Ok. I just wondered if you clearly communicated your expectations. I notice a number of women do not. They assume the man should "just know." I have no idea why they assume this.

lifecoachtisha

WIM: I wanted to leave this alone so baaaaaaaaaad, but I needed to get this off my chest *SIDEEYEZ*

3) Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material? [A method of appraoched makes the world of difference] You know, there was a time when just any ole' raggedy dude wouldn't approach me. Now it seems that all types of riff raffs want to prove their heart don't pump kool-aid and just come out of the woodwork thinking its okay to "hollaaaaaaa". I long for the days when people (men and women) stayed in their lane. Nowadays with all the "faux lifestyles" its getting pretty tiresome trying to decode all the codes and roadblocks false advertisers set up.

Lastly, I dont believe for a second that these women assume that men should just know better. As I see it, those women are afraid to tell a man flat out what her expectations are because she fears being seen as the one who rocks the boat. And since have a male to deal with is better than having no male to deal with, the cycle continues. But for a woman who has op-shaaaaay's (options) this will never be a P-R-O-B-L-E-M

BTW: smh @South Beach

Teflon Mom

To answer the questions:
1) Yes, I believe there are fewer "good men" to choose from than there are "good women". 2) Na-na's stock has fallen. Men used to have to accomplish something to get in a woman's pants. Now all he has to do is holla. It's too easy. I'm all for a good maintenance man, but seriously, stop trying to turn hoes into husbands. 3) If 10 men approached me, I would say 2 would be bf material, 3 would be boy-toy material, the other 5 would be "Talk to me again and I'm getting a restraining order" material.

Naija

Now that I've finally worked my way through all the comments, I would like to also point out that a good number of men (and this appears not to apply to a lot of you, but it doesn't change that reality) make certain assumptions of women who approach them. We don't necessarily have to ask for numbers, but there's that idea that she knows what she wants, and because a lot of men approach with sexual relations in mind (not exclusively), they assume that this means sex will be had shortly. When this winds up not being the case, the women are then accused of leading the men on and being confused as to what they want. Some women prefer to skip all that drama and let men approach, so that they can then dictate the pace without being accused of wrongdoing. I fall somewhere on that line.

Dr. J

This ain't a slight at you Naija, but these types of comments bother me. How are you going to tell me what i'm thinking when a woman approaches me? I feel like this would be better if phrased as a question. What do men think when women approach them? To be honest with you, most men have never been able to put their finger on why women sleep with them. We have strategies and all types of offenses/formations and stuff but we can't say for a fact, "If a chick approach you, that mean she DTF." When women approach me, I think these things in this order:

1) What's wrong with her?
2) How often does she do this?
3) This is awkward.
4) No seriously, what's wrong with her?

If a chick approaches me, I don't think she's out for sex. If I get a chick number and text her the same night, "What you doing after?" And she replies, "Nothing, what's up?" THEN I think she's out for sex.

Naija

No slight taken. I'm not speaking about theories crafted from a woman's mind, I'm talking about conclusions based on the aftermath. I've listened in on guys and women alike complaining about it from their different perspectives. I wasn't trying to imply that it was true of most men. However, it is something that is common enough to be a source of concern. Oh, and those thoughts are not singular to you, so they offer women even less motivation to make an approach.

Speaking personally, and depending on my mood, I have absolutely no problem striking up a conversation with a man in my immediate vicinity. However, walking up to one for the purposes of making a non-career related connection is not something that's in my portfolio.

Naija

Oh, and btw… if I were to send a "nothing, what's up?" text after an encounter like that, it could simply mean that I'm interested in finding out if there's something interesting taking place in the near future. A date could happen at any time really, provided that both people are willing and available. Or it could be for a group hangout. After all, interest is what got us to that point. Sex….? Not so much. So you see how signal lines can easily be fudged.

WisdomIsMisery

Somewhat agree with J here. I all the way agree that women can't tell me what they're thinking (and vise versa). I'd have to see the poll and then the methodology on that poll to co-sign on any statistics related to that.

Where I disagree with is what J thinks when women approach. Now I seem to be an exception but maybe it's because I'm pretty liberal with most of my views, especially on women. If a woman approached me, I would think nothing. It's just like when a man approaches you, unless you make 50-11 assumptions. When (although rare) a woman approaches me, I see what she's talking about THEN I make a judgment. If she's respectful and goes about it correctly, I'll likely forget how we got to talking 5 minutes into the conversation. This is weird to me…

Just to be clear, when I say "approach," all I'm saying is that you walk up to a man of Interest and say Hello or start a general conversation. If he doesn't take over from there, you are free to walk away. I feel like some women's reaction (not you Naija) is as if I'm saying yall should walk up to a man, unzip his pants and bop him off in the club. lol It's really not that serious.

PS. I think it's telling that women so many women are so worried about "what does he think?" This may be another area, as a man, I'm overlooking. When I approach a woman, I could care less what she thinks. I'm approaching because I'm interested in her. I have no idea if she's interested in me…yet…that's why I approached in order for her to confirm or deny. *shrugs*

WisdomIsMisery

Whoa. First line SHOULD read, "women can't tell men what men are thinking." Jesus…almost got myself crucified, no pun.

Naija

You're definitely not of a common mould, which is something that I like about you. With most people, however, some measure of sizing up and theory-generating occurs before and/or during the first couple of seconds. I have actually had lengthy conversations with men whom I felt early on weren't viable options, before we went our separate ways. This is possible because I don't have a "must be bf material" requirement for people to speak with me. What the conversation generally confirms, though, is that we are not quite compatible.

Speaking personally, part of the reason why I consider what men think is because impression management is significant to me. It's why I carry myself a certain way, and why I don't generally open the door for people to make wildly off-base assumptions about me. I'm fairly nonchalant in many regards, but one thing that can annoy me is if someone gets the wrong impression and acts accordingly. Or if you have certain expectations of me and then have a fit when I calmly let you know that you've got things twisted. As I mentioned, a lot of guys interpret women's approach according to how they approach women, and in so-doing, assume that all parties are on the same page from the get-go. Because more women are relationship-oriented in their approach and more men are inclined towards casual relations with potential to lead elsewhere, this is often not the case. And in terms of bargaining position, women are met with "Well, you came after me." From my observations, women appear to relinquish some directional power when they take the lead on the approach.

You know how you sometimes say that men are oblivious? Another thing is that a woman can approach, strike up a conversation, and if she doesn't ask for a number, the guy can just chuck it up to her being friendly and not necessarily seeking anything further. lol There are a few different angles, but I guess the long and short of it is that the current state of affairs will not be changing anytime soon. I will say, though, that I know how to make my way somewhere without being obvious. I can create an opening for an interaction, and am able to do so when motivated, and when the setting appears right.

Bree

Cosign Naija and very well said. I think men forget how oblivious and completely clueless they can be as to if a woman is flirting with them and/or really really likes them, (unless this is just a front). Some guys don't take the bait when a woman openly flirts with them and they end up missing the boat and then say the woman never said she wanted his number, or she never said she wanted to go out with him.

I think it's telling that women so many women are so worried about "what does he think?"

It's cause women are judged so so often by women and men alike for every little thing. How many sentences have you heard that start with "she a hoe if……" or "she thirsty if…." It's like Dr. J just said he'd think a girl was DTF is she texted him back that night or whatever…. and I'm not knocking him in any way for assuming that. Maybe it's an accurate assumption? I really don't know. but if you really think about it…. that's a arbitrary ass assumption. So many little rules like that, it's hard to keep up with it all. A lot of women feel like they have to watch out for sending the wrong message, I guess.

I would assume it's the same with guys and not "looking like a creeper/sketchball."

Zeek

A lot of women that I know or gone out to places with casually…..they pretty much have a 'starting lineup' of guys. *Shrugs* So I really dont know how true the statement, '….all women pretty much just want 1 good one' is. Its a nice thing to say or write. I mean it looks real pretty on paper. But last I checked, actions always told the story so who knows. It just is what it is I guess. It seems like its just a bi-product of the 'good girl' choosing the 'bad boy' for so many years, which leaves the 'good guy' with 'bad girls' to choose from. Or get chosen by, is a better way to put it, because last time I checked, the guy has to do the asking so really the woman is doin the choosing with her yes or no response.

1) Do you believe there are less good men (viable dating partners) to choose from in the dating population? No I do not. I think it depends on what is deemed a "good man." I've had the pleasure of knowing many wonderful men over the years, starting as far back as highschool. I do agree with the stats that there is less of a male population than female population overall, particularly in the black community.
If yes, how do you/did you overcome the odds? n/a
2) Why do you believe there are less good men for women to choose from than good women for men to choose from? I don't. I think if a man wants a really good woman he can meet and get one. If a woman wants a really good man she also can meet and get one.
3) Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material? It would depend on where I am…..location, location location.
If 10 random dudes approach me in the hood of West Philly, probably like 2 and a possible.
In DC near the white-house or at a Congressional Black Caucus function at least half and 2 possibles.

JupiterCalhoun

I've switched up my approach, regarding women, and have become very selective in who I give my time to. By the rationale of this post, I could say that there is a shortage of eligible women out there. Of course, I know this is untrue. While there are plenty of great women in the world, there are very few that will meet the majority of the criteria I set up.

So the problem, if you can call it a problem, is not a shortage of one gender, changes in gender roles, or anything else. The cause lies solely with the person deciding upon who they feel meets their standards. If you decide all you want is to date an educated man or woman with a good personality, you're dating pool opens up. If your ideal mate has to be no shorter than 6'3" or no taller than 5'3", has good hair, skin the color of cafe au lait, commands $75K+ per year, and has a DD cup or 10 inches, then your options narrow…considerably.

Bree

good points Jupiter.

Kimmie

Perhaps there may be less men for women to choose from but that doesn't mean that you cannot find them. Despite the opposition I think that there are ways women can empower themselves to find the man that they want. Settle on 5 non-negotiables and be open. For example race, religion, height, salary, and education are common requests but you haven't even considered character and the five non-negtioables have been exhausted. For women that do not approach men but want an alternative, think of all the locations where you interact with men on a daily basis. I believe that the many people find their spouse at work or school so if this isn't an option get hobbies. I started rock climbing and have met many high quality guys. The great thing is we already have something common and its a great excuse to start conversation. There is a very high male:female ratio so its an introverts dream. I also think that if you are not considered attractive (be real with yourself) you will not really benefit at lounges/bars/clubs where first impressions are the most important thing and you will have to compete if many attractive women. Just my $0.02

Bree

I wanna simplify this whole thing by getting to the root of the issue at hand.
There are "good" men and there are "good" women.
Reality #1 – most folks are Not looking for just good, but great and/or damn near perfect men and women.
Reality #2 – with regards to dating and relationships a woman's ultimate goal is to date and enter into a relationship to get MARRIED. Not too many women get with a man wanting him to be her boyfriend for years and years. Women who say they don't need a man, and who put everything into their careers typically adopt that attitude because: 1 – they cannot find a suitable partner on their level that they are compatible with and willing to marry. 2 – men they do deem as suitable partners and willing to marry do not want to marry them.

Bree

Their choices end up being – be in a "long-term" relationship with a man for years and years and play house with a man and be a "play wife" and be content with just that and forget about ever having a dream wedding and becoming a legal wife, deal with a lying, cheating, bsing man and ignore the lying, cheating, and bsing, and be content with having a "piece of a man" as opposed to no man at all, or be single and focus on their careers and be rich bitches.
Reality #3 – Most men Do Not date and enter into relationships with the ultimate goal and/or intentions of Getting Married and wifing the girls/women they date and have a relationship with.

Bree

Reality #4 – Even men who are "baby boys" (as I lovingly call them) and love being in relationships because they don't want to be alone, and love being in love, and love all the perks and advantages of having a girl, and love being taken care of still will Not necessarily wife a woman who is performing wifely duties. He will reap the benefits of the wifely duties for as long as he can, take as long as the woman gives and take everything she gives, while giving back the bare minimum, and when he is
given and ultimatum many men will leave probably thinking, "f this, I ain't tryna wife you."

Bree

Reality #5 – Even men who are "marriage-minded" and say they are ready to settle down with a good woman have a vastly different time-table on when to "put a ring on it" than most women. Because marriage means different things to men than it does women, and most men feel like women benefit from marriage a hell of a lot more than they do, and they always hear about and experience marriage negatively they will wait for a very very very long time before "puttin a ring on it." Many times they wait longer than the woman has the patience for.
Reality #6 – piggy-backing off of Reality #5 many women do not have the patience to wait for men to "get their sh** together" and " "put a ring on it." Where a woman may feel the man should be at the very least preparing to propose in a yr or 2, 5 yrs plus goes by before the man actually does.

Bree

Example – most all men think Beyonce is pretty damn foine; not to mention she can sing and dance and is making mucho denero. She is the type of woman who actually can "upgrade" the avg dude in all the ways she sang about in that song "upgrade you." Even the other Destiny's Child girls agreed that out of all of them Beyonce was thee most "stand by your man, cater to your man, down azz chick, moreso than them. I've heard many a man say they would wife B quicker than a NY minute just based off of her looks and talent alone.

Bree

However, I think it took Jay-Z almost 10 years to "put a ring on it." I may be wrong about this because I didn't google it but I know they dated for over 5 years before he proposed. And yall may say well thats different cause he is "Jay-Z." But my point is many men are no different than him in the amnt of time that it can take them to marry a woman they could be madly in love with, and feel like she is the best thing that ever happened to them. I think men have such a deep-seated and immense fear of what happens after marriage due to the horror stories that they hear and the negative picture painted for them, that no matter how great the woman, they fear Marriage. (In fact, this would be a good post – can men can get past their fears of marriage so there will be less single women)? (If so how would they get past those fears)?

Bree

Reality #7 – To sum up everything I've said in my previous comments, many men who have the qualities that most women would deem "good men," ie men who are: handsome, attractive, sexy, have swag, charming, educated, good job, making good money (close to six figures), out-going, fun-loving, romantic, kind, caring, considerate, etc etc etc Do Not necessarily want a long term, committed relationship, much less marriage.

Bree

The ones who do want a long-term committed relationship Do Not necessarily want to get married, the ones who do want to get married "eventually" are Not trying to get married anytime soon and not trying to have kids anytime soon.
It actually makes perfect sense too that handsome, successful, college educated, well off good black men particularly don't want to rush into a committment or marriage. They aren't stupid, they know what they got and they know their worth. They also know mad women of all ages nowadays are hungry like wolves for a good black man, and not just black women. So they use all their assests to their advantage and play the game, that they invented, well. They are hard pressed to get married because they can get everything they want and need from women Without, putting a ring on it. reference post "Have women removed a mans desire to get married."
I'm still at work about to head out to Zumba. I do not have the time to reference previous post that may apply to my comments and my apologies for my comments being so chopped & screwed. Stupid work computer is like this. So please charge it to my job and not.
That is all, (for now).

"Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material?"

Based on experience…probably 1or 2. Like a lot of people have been saying, the "good" men are in high demand and don't need or tend to approach. It's not that they're not approaching at all, it's just that goons or creeps are 100% going to approach, so they start to get overrepresented.

The other thing though, is that with those odds, at least for me, the odds are slimmer that you'll have a connection or chemistry or whatever with each boyfriend-material-guy you meet. I've met and know a lot of
dudes who are "good men" and boyfriend material, but there just isn't anything more…

Melissa

Well, I think most people have pretty summed up my general response to the questions. So I'll just state a few supplementary (personal) points….1) How do you overcome the odds? – Through non-sexual multiple dating.

2.Why do you believe there are less good men for women to choose from than good women for men to choose from? To be honest, from my learning, the GOOD guys are not available anymore, simple! all the good guys i personally know are happily committed, whilst one or two others are in the "searching" process.

3) Ladies, if 10 random men approached you, how many of them would be, at minimum, boyfriend material? None. I find that the decent guys (who appeal to my taste never approach). I get approached by weighty, very mature (and possibly already married with kids) men; 35> years old, inarticulate/ghetto, pushovers/desperate etc etc etc type of guys.

Voila!

Marriedtojuwana

OMG. A man that gets it.

There is a shortage of men period. Add in the men that play the field until they are 35, and the majority of dudes out here are just looking for some chex in the meantime. It seems as if dudes are not in any rush to settle down or get married, so they "do them" until…..?? Do men just wake up after their 35th b-day and start looking for wifey? Can someone please answer this for me? LOL. What are the women that want to settle down now supposed to do? I would like to settle down with someone my age but mention the word commitment and ninjas run faster than w33d heads do from dirt trees..

I've had exes tell me they would wife me up, I would be a good mother…etc…but its just not the right time.(HAHA LOL I'm such a dumba$$ to believe that)They just love women too much and they aren't settling down any time soon. It sucks….Are women supposed to wait it out? Marry the ugly dudes? If you can't beat em join em? lol Chex a dude till he settles down? Find a dude 10 years older?(YUCK)

It seems like all the marriageable dudes chase ho3s until they are 35…While the women who would hold a dude down get shitt3d on cause these ho3s play wifey and don't even have a title…

Not Your Friend

Black women definitely have less good men to choose from if they are solely dating Black men.

Rich

Here's the problem: If black women are sitting around waiting for the Reverend Dr. Idris Elba, with his street cred, law degree, machismo and sensitivity all in tow, to come down straight from heaven, sent by Jesus Himself, and sweep them off of their feet, then yes, there will be a shortage of "good" black men, and there always will be. Case closed.

Plan~B

Good black men are in existence…perhaps the women interviewed for this study are not good black women? You ARE generally what you attract.

Personally I do not believe there is a shortage of good black men IF you are a good black woman. Men know when a female is a dime (not just by looks either) and guess what?…they lock them down and in most cases get themselves "right" for that particular female. You have to become what you want in most all things in this life. Women don't really understand how much power they have. They have the ability to obtain good men – if they are good women. If every man on earth had to be a "stand up guy" in order to get somewhere (sexually or otherwise) with women the perspective would be very different. Men do a lot for the attention of women. Ideally if the requirements change, so does the market – and therefore the results.

To get the KING you need to be a QUEEN. Bottom line.

Zeek

I basically need to relocate or somethin because in my part of NY state, the women here have too much pimpin to do to NOT just want 1

Zeek

Or rather too much pimpin to do to just want 1. They want 10+. Smhlol. Thats the way it goes down around my way

Naija

Right? I love the perception that all of us have extraordinarily high and unreasonable standards.

tehswa

You cant say there are no good men, then refuse to give a good one the time of day saying he should have approached you. Good men have options, now get over yourself and make it known when you like someone. Personally, I get approached by "undatable" woman all the time. Too many kids, way too overwieght, or just too much baggage in general i.e. her ex in jail for murder. But, the good women, the quality ones seem to either dont want to be bothered or play eternal hard to get which gets old in a setting full of other beautiful women.

I pulled one difference albeit slight between men and women from Wisdom's post. It's slight in the wording/terminology, but like the grand canyon in reality…

Men date women and men seek a wife. These are separate functions.
Women seek to date men that have husband potential.

Of course, I'm saying most, many, some men/women – no absolutes implied here. But, I see it being just that simple. The great divide is fundamental and is found at the very beginning before anyone decides to approach anyone. Everything else comes afterwards with its own set of statistics and probabilities based on personal perception and experience.

If you are dating to date then the pool is more abundant. If you are seeking a husband/wife the pool is less abundant and for good reason. A lifetime is a longtime.
My recent post What is the deal?

dave

Eternal hard to get. Great point about women. As I understand it, they say that they feel more treasured and cherished when men have to work harder to "obtain" them. Is there any BETTER way to devalue men?

I agree with this actually… I am a woman, and to make it even more interesting, I am a Christian with a solid set of moral values. I want a guy who also has a solid set of moral values… That said, I’ve had a horrible time with trying to find someone with even slightly similar values to date. Even at church. I’m not stuck up, I’m not a crazy or a zealot, I just want a man with a little substance who will stand up and be his own man of integrity when the going gets rough.

To put me in context, I just turned 27, so about the time I turned 22 I started noticing that guys were doing less asking out in general. About the time I turned 25 the word date was being out out of its misery like some strain of Ebola virus, and just yesterday, I read a post that said “she had to be VERY special for me to do all that wine and dine shit.”

I’ve always loved it when the man initiates. It shows me strength, a bit of risk and adventure, it’s honestly the #1 sexiest thing a man can do. I also love it when the man uses the word “date.” It makes me feel special, and intriguing, like this man is going out of his way to spend time with me. At the risk of sounding foolish, a date sort of makes me feel a bit like a modern day Cinderella– whether it’s an expensive dinner or a coffee date. “Date” doesn’t mean marriage. It’s a date. I’ve literally had guys freak out that I even dared to use the word. To me it’s almost heartbreaking that men hardly initiate. A woman wants to feel like she’s worth taking a risk on. Like he’d go out of his way for her. If she has to constantly initiate, it feels like she’s going to be the only one putting forth any effort in a relationship. Which is why I personally hate initiating with a man. After a few weeks, I don’t mind initiating contact, but I want to see whether he thinks I’m worth his effort.

Now to my real-world observations… My personal ratio of potential day able suitors in a group of 10 would be 0 to 1. I don’t say that lightly. For years I was totally optimistic about how many good men there were. I started with the assumption of more good men than bad. I gave the benefit of the doubt. Then I realized that the majority of modern 20-30 something’s fall into one of 2 categories: #1. Playing the field with no commitment; #2. One girlfriend + a secret harem…. In the minority there’s a very small number of taken men, who usually have a steady girlfriend or wife, and they genuinely seem like good guys. They’re very rare, and when you finally meet one its usually because he just got out of a long-term relationship.

The vast, vast majority of men I’ve met are players. They fight for your attention, being it on hot and fast, and after the first kiss everything gets worse. If you make the mistake of sleeping with one, as to my regret I did, then they dump you and move on, or they keep you on the back burner of their harem till you blow up at them. They say things like, “Im never going to fall in love again, I need time to work on myself, I’m not looking for anything serious right now…”

What’s worse is that their practices and attitudes trickle down to the good guys, and they start becoming less good. These men start to think its acceptable to lead a woman on for months to cope with their loneliness. They start to see a woman as less than valuable. They make promises and continually break them. They think she should come onto him sexually by at least date # 3 or they assume she’s not even a real woman.

Just yesterday, I read a post by a very proud man with alot of followers that proclaimed that if a woman refuses to give a man head, he should dump her flat out, and also that he rarely takes a woman out to dinner. Also, the implication being that he is not with this woman for very long. The most interesting part is that there were tons of men and women that applauded His point of view. in fact, no one objected. There is a growing attitude that a woman should be willing to perform some pretty serious stuff on a man she doesn’t know, who probably won’t ever love her or treat her like half a human being, or she can expect to be tossed out like garbage, with no hope of experiencing intimacy with a man who will love her and value her.

I think it would be interesting if men had the foresight to act based on how they would want their own future daughter to be treated. Would he want her bouncing from man to man? Would he want her to feel worthless and dirty and like something less than a treasure? Probably not.

I have hope that someway somehow a few men would realize that men were created to be powerful, wise leaders, warriors, mentors, passionate lovers, fathers, rescuers, adventurers, and legacy-makers. We all make mistakes and have vices, but we should be defined by the heights of our ideals not the depths of our vices.

I believe in men and their capacity to be great. But I have yet to see more than a few men see their greatness beyond the number of shots they can take or the number of women they can bed. I want to see a world where there are more good men. There are just so few now.