Apostasy Alert: Joel Osteen And Oprah Preach New Age Magic

Following in the footsteps of Bishop T.D. Jakes, Prosperity Gospel preacher Joel Osteen, Pastor of Lakewood Church, the biggest congregation in America, has now joined Oprah Winfrey’s life classes to teach New Age heresy to the masses. Once again, a Christian pastor has come on Winfrey’s series and preached a message that had no mention of the Biblical gospel, forgiveness of sins or Jesus Christ.

As we noted in our Apostasy Alert article on T.D. Jakes, Oprah Winfrey has been one of the biggest promoters of the New Age movement in the world. Through her talk show, television network and multi media empire Winfrey, who claims to be a Christian, has launched books such as The Secret into all-time best sellers. The Secret, a book that teaches the ancient witchcraft technique, The Law of Attraction is not in line remotely with Biblical Christianity. Rather than looking to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God, The Secret teaches that a person has the power to attract success, wealth, romance and all sorts of earthly benefits through their own words and rituals.

Here is Oprah promoting the book on her show:

The book popularized “The Law of Attraction”, an occult technique that involves visualizing a certain goal, constantly focusing and doing certain practices as if it has already happened and then “attracting” it by your constant thoughts and focus. Its author, Rhonda Byrne writes: “All good things are your birthright! You are the creator of you, and the law of attraction is your magnificent tool to create whatever you want in you life. Welcome to the magic of life, and the magnificence of You!” (p. 41)

Of course the Bible says of Jesus Christ: “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3). Jesus Christ is the Creator. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. A person is blessed through faith in Christ who is the heir of the Universe. And Jesus teaches that constant focus on material gain should not be a Christian’s life:

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. – Matthew 6:31-33.

Joel Osteen is taking much of his material from this book.

“When you focus your thoughts on something you want, and you hold that focus, you are in that moment summoning what you want with the mightiest power in the Universe. The law of attraction doesn’t compute “don’t” or “not” or “no,” or any other words of negation, this is what the law of attraction is receiving.” – The Secret, p. 9.

By the book’s premise, all power comes through the individual. A person can have whatever they want just calling upon “the mightiest power of the Universe.” Anything can be obtained. The Bible does not teach this. In fact it teaches that we cannot obtain anything of true meaning and significance without God:

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. – James 4:8-10.

Notice the difference: the Bible acknowledges that God is the means to eternal satisfaction and true peace. And it also teaches that it is sin that is our main obstacle to God. It takes a desire for forgiveness and faith in God to forgive sin through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that is the message of Christianity.

The Secret reveals its true message later on in the book:

“You are God in a physical body. You are Spirit in the flesh. You are Eternal Life expressing itself as you.” (The Secret, p. 164)

This underscores the message of The Secret and the New Age: that a person can become God. This is of course complete contradictory to the Bible and is following the deception of Satan.

In our first article on Joel Osteen’s witchcraft, we detailed that the Law of Attraction is precisely what Joel Osteen preaches to his congregation and television audience on a regular basis. This is nothing more than witchcraft being given a “Christian”veneer. The Bible of course prophesied that as the end times approached there would be an apostasy – a falling away in the church, where pastors and their congregations would abandon Biblical Christianity in favor of their own man-centered, mystical doctrines. 2 Timothy Chapter 4 issues a directive to pastors to stand for the Biblical, Gospel-centered preaching in this age of Apostasy:

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. – 2 Timothy 4:1-4.

Pastors are to preach “the word” – meaning preach The Bible and not their own ideas or methods, whether it is “in style” or “out of style” or “old-school” to just use solid, biblical preaching. The result of not doing this is that those coming to church will desire pastors who will tell them what they want to hear, rather than preaching what the Word of God has to say to all people. Examining Osteen in the life class, there are numerous examples of sound doctrine being rejected and fable being given instead.The Power of “I Am”

The power is not in the words. It is with God.

Osteen in this portion of the class is using principles from his new book “I Declare.” What is being preached here is that a person has the power to affect change within themselves and attract success by using the phrase “I am..”

None of this is in the Bible. Notice there is no mention of God, Jesus Christ or the Gospel in anything that is being preached. Just like T.D. Jakes before him, Osteen is preaching a Christ-less Gospel that is completely centered on worldly, material gain. According to Osteen speaking negative statements “sets the tone for your life” and attracts bad situations to your life and therefore we should not even make negative statements like “I am depressed” or “I am sad.” This once again, is the Law of Attraction at work.

Here is a quote from a New Age book based on The Secret that explains the same principle Osteen is preaching:

“In this chapter we turn our attention to using our I AM power to make our hopes and dreams become part of our reality. Starting with a brief discussion of the 2006 book and movie, The Secret, we’ll examine the question of our roles as co-creators of our experience of reality… When you say I AM the rest of that sentence cannot but help become your reality. That is because one of the manifestations of God is God as Law, the Divine Law of Cause and Effect, which Buddhism calls karma.” – (The Power of I Am: Claiming Your Inherent Power To Consciously Create A Life of Purpose, Meaning and Joy, Dan Shafer).

Like The Secret, this book comes back to the conclusion that it is the individual person who can “be as God” and create their reality simply by reciting words that follow the phrase “I AM.”

If a person is facing life problems, Osteen’s solution is to just make positive statements. By simply repeating the phrase “I am confident” the insecure person will be “healed.” Lacking in creativity? Simply say “I am creative.” Beloved, this is not Biblical Christianity. Reciting words in a ritualistic fashion is not what God instructs. The Bible tells Christians to bring all of our pain, hurt and suffering to God in prayer:

O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his name together. I sought the Lord, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed. This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles. – Psalm 34:3-6.

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. The righteous cry, and the Lord heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles. The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all. – Psalm 34:15-19.

I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears. – Psalm 18:3-6.

And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. – Psalm 50:15.

The God of the Bible is merciful, compassionate and yearns to hear the cries of His children. Rather than ignoring our pain, the Bible instructs to share the problems and struggles of life with The Lord who hears and answers prayer. Compare this to Osteen who says the solution is all in the words you speak and their power. So by Osteen’s doctrine, the Bible passages above are all going to lead to more problems in your life since they are so “negative” and will “attract” more negativity. This is not Biblical teaching. It is New Age witchcraft. Here are excerpts from articles teaching witchcraft that make it clear that the Law of Attraction is an occult practice:

“By formulating a witchcraft ritual you are creating and therefore taking responsibility for the circumstances of your life. This is the main message that the Law of Attraction has been broadcasting. The Law of Attraction is something that has been very familiar with witches for thousands of years as a very elementary teaching in witchcraft. Now it’s time to take it to the next level.” (source).

“I also teach Law of Attraction on its own for people who just want to learn that. However I believe the the two subjects really do belong together. Whenever you are casting a Wiccan spell you are using the Law of Attraction and whenever a Law of Attraction practitioner says an affirmation, he or she is really doing magick.” (source).

The Word of God strongly forbids any use of the occult or dabbling in witchcraft:

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God. – Deuteronomy 18:10-13.

Why would a Christian pastor bring New Age teachings to the church? What spirit is leading a Pastor who is not using the Bible as a guide but instead leaning on the same methods used by witches for centuries? Do not be deceived.

The Bible warns Christians to beware of those who do not teach the Bible.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. – 2 Peter 2:1-3.

With a multimillion dollar media empire, Osteen has achieved unparalleled success teaching false doctrines. In the clip above he even says that determining your future is all a function of “the words you say today.” Compare Osteen’s teaching with The Secret:

If the words “I can’t afford it” have passed your lips, your power to change that is now. Change it with “I can afford that! I can buy that!” Say it over and over. Become like a parrot. For the next thirty days, make it your intention that you are going to look at everything you like and say to yourself, “I can afford that, I can buy that.” – (The Secret, p. 102).

Osteen is clearly teaching New Age mysticism over the Bible. There is nothing wrong with a Christian making negative statements. Prayer is to be honest and if a person is feeling pain, insecure, weak or tired of it all, God in Heaven wants to hear all those words. We are to lean on God to save us, not ourselves or magical words. And for the person who is unsaved, salvation starts at the point that a person can say: “I am a sinner. I am guilty before God. I am in violation of God’s commandments.” Without those “negative” words, a person cannot receive free forgiveness that comes through faith in Jesus Christ. When a person cries out to God, rather than “attract” negative situations, they draw closer to the Almighty Creator and His love for them.

Here is a clip of a woman who is clearly struggling with her faith. She says that she is “a child of God” but does not speak to God.

As with many of the students in Oprah’s class, they are truly seeking spiritual answers. This is fertile ground for a true Christian pastor to share the Gospel message of Jesus Christ. Yet once again, Osteen gives his “advice” without a mention of the Savior. He does not encourage the women to pray more, read the Bible or attend a church. He does not even make sure that she is truly born again. He merely tells her to “stay in faith” and does more “I am” affirmations with her. Again, what he is teaching is that the power to change is within the person and not from God. This is the message of witchcraft and the New Age. Here is an excerpt from a New Age Yoga event that emphasized the Law of Attraction:

“The Law of Attraction states. . . ‘That which is like itself is drawn’. In other words, like attracts like. Your thoughts, your words, your feelings, your actions all put forth a specific energy vibration and thus attract to you that of like energy. . . whether it be positive or negative… When you see something you would like to experience and you say, “yes, I would like to have that,” through your attention to it you invite it into your life experience. Likewise, when you see something that you do not want to experience and you say, “No, I do not want that,” you still invite it into your life. Where thoughts go, energy flows!” (source).

The Law of Attraction, which is precisely what Osteen is preaching is witchcraft. Here is another quote from a witchcraft blog that is in line with Osteen’s teaching:

“I truly understand the universal law of attraction / like attracts like. After all, that was pretty much the very first lesson in Witch School. The law of the Universe is that like attracts like. Whether that me positive or negative. Do, act, think, speak, write, positive & more positive energy will return to you. You get back, what you put out into the universe.” (source).

Thanks to Oprah Winfrey among others, New Age spirituality has seen an explosion in popularity in the past decade. Pastors should be protecting the flock and warning Christians about these false doctrines, not preaching them.

There is a way to healing in this world. There is joy that can be obtained before Heaven. But it starts with being born again through faith in Jesus Christ:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; – 2 Corinthians 5:17-18.

Once a person is born again, their eternal destiny is secure. The new Christian receives a new spirit (hence the phrase “born again”) that seeks to please God and live for Him. It is in this new birth that there can be a real joy. Because a Christian can look past their earthly condition and rejoice knowing that Heaven and eternal life await. Jesus Christ confirmed this when He said:

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. – John 14:27.

The true peace comes when a person knows they are not facing eternal damnation. This is what Jesus Christ wants to share with the world. And it is a pastor’s job to spread this message so that people will believe. And instead of preaching the word, Osteen is promoting fables. How is this woman saying “I am worthy” going to save her soul? How is saying “I am valuable” going to bring her true peace? It won’t.

At the close of the class, Osteen, while promoting his book, again offers the advice that the power in life lies in the words someone says:

He tells the audience that if they are thinking any negative thoughts to “zip it up” and just not say them. And then he and Oprah close with more “I am” affirmations, encouraging the audience to repeat them every day, mantra-like, as the key to living a fulfilled life. Jesus Christ, in teaching how to pray, forbade Osteen’s methods: “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.” (Matthew 6:7-8).

In Osteen’s positive declarations, there is no mention of sin, forgiveness, eternal damnation or faith and eternal life. And absolutely no mention of the name Jesus Christ. It is just more declarations of your own greatness. In other words, the individual is the answer to their own problems. The solution and divinity all reside within.

Here, one of the many websites on wicca and witchcraft teaching these principles, mimics Osteen’s “preaching”:

“You can create your own affirmations for pretty much everything. Say you want a new job. You could use an affirmation like “I am getting a new job that I love.” Wanting to find a new partner in life? How about using “I will find my true love.” I started out using basic ones. I still use some of my original ones. “Calm” is one I use when I feel overwhelmed. Just one word that I repeat to myself. The biggest thing I do though is try to monitor the chatter in my mind. If a negative thought creeps in I try to dismiss it and replace it with a positive one. At first it can be time consuming, in time though you will wind up doing it naturally.

You are beautiful. You are amazing! You are perfect! You are you. and you are loved.” (source).

Jesus Christ, preaching during his Earthly ministry, gave a parable that summed up and exposed the heresy and blatant error of Osteen’s teachings:

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I AM not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. – Luke 18:9-14. [Emphasis added]

The Pharisee made an “I am” affirmation to boast of how great he was and his testimony was rejected by Jesus. But the publican was humble and spoke negatively – willing to speak the truth, that he was a sinner. He confessed that like all people, he had fallen short of the glory of God and deserved God’s wrath. And he cried out for God’s mercy. And for this, he was exalted.

Declaring “bold affirmations” will not get you to Heaven.

As the church moves deeper into the apostasy it is more important than ever for Christians to stand on sound doctrine. There are many souls at stake. Heretical, New Age mystics like Joel Osteen are filling pews every week and have audiences of millions through television and the internet. But he is not preaching the real Gospel. He is preaching a false doctrine that will tickle the ear, but ultimately lead to damnation. Do not be deceived. Pray for these apostate pastors to turn back to God, repent and preach the Bible. And pray for their congregations to use Biblical discernment to see the truth of the Bible over “positive affirmations”, the Law of attraction and other fables. Romans 1:16 says: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;”

There is a power in words. But it is in the words of God when they are spoken to point people to Jesus Christ. For Christians, use this power and share the good news of forgiveness of sins and eternal life in Jesus Christ. If you are not a believer, take the time to learn the Gospel and cry out to God for forgiveness for the sins you know you have committed. Pray and say the “negative affirmation” that you are indeed a sinner but believe that there is forgiveness for those who put their faith in Jesus Christ. And The Lord will exalt you in eternity.

Andrea..If you have received Christ then why would you consider yourself a sinner.This is a new age lie which is designed to make christians ok with sinning but not one scripture from Matthew to revelation calls christians sinners.As a matter of fact the bible tells us in 1st john chapter 3 that he who sins is of the devil” and does not know God.Paul said in romans ch 6:2″how are we who are dead to sin live any longer in sin”..Psalm ch 1 says “blessed is the man who stands not in the ways of sinners”..The bible never ever states that we should consider ourselves sinners.Many people mis-undrestand 1st john ch 1 “if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves…”The problem is that people fail to see that he is speaking in past tense as seen in verse 10 “if we say we have not sinned”He did not say “if we say we do not sin”..he said”if we say we have not sinned..thats past tense..The same writer states clearly in the 3rd chapter that sin is of the devil and those who sin do not know God…why would you want to be counted among sinners…

Hi Dane, I don’t think the question should be,,,,, is Andrea counting herself among sinners is not the right question to be asking. It seems your counting yourself among the sinless. Is that true? Are you saying your not a sinner? Please name others, besides Christ Himself, that are on the sinless list like you?

And then because Joyce Meyers, Jesse Duplantis and other Word of Faith teachers have claimed to be sinless (a claim they both made and backed out of later after scrutiny) – we can talk about complete sanctification and sinless perfection and if it is even possible for Christians to become sinless. Charles Finny said he knew one man that might have been fully sanctified – how many have you meet?

You don’t seem to have a firm grasp of the English Language.If you “read” and “comprehend” what was written You wouldn’t be putting a moot question forward on a serious subject. To simplify; All faithful Christians “have sinned” and now have Faith in Jesus, the Disciples of Satan “are sinners” and turn their backs on God’s word and /or have no faith in Jesus. Know Jesus,Know Peace,No Jesus,No Peace

Luk 18:9-14 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. he Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

In response to Dane. Hi everyone! I disagree with you that Christians don’t sin. When the Word states we don’t sin it is meaning that we don’t practice sin. There is total difference between committing a sin and staying in that sin and making a practice of it. When we do fall short and sin we need to repent of that sin (in the name of Jesus) and go forward cleansed of our sin again. It is true that God sees each of us, that have accepted Jesus as our Savior, as perfect through the blood of Jesus Christ His Son!

1 John Chapter one and first two verses of Chapter two helps us to understand. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This teaching of John is to Christians. John is encouraging these Christians to not sin. However, if they do (praise God) we have a advocate (lawyer) Jesus Jesus stood in for us and took our sins on the cross. However, do not get the idea that it is ok to sin knowing that God is there to forgive through Jesus. We are looking for bad trouble when we do that. John is speaking to us that we do all we can to be sinless, but if we do fall short, praise God, Jesus took on our sins and we can repent and go forward again. What a merciful and loving God we serve! Thanks and Gods’ Blessings to all! Dr. Gary

Very biblical reply Dr. Gary…..great answer as well Damon……Can you imagine preachers like this…..standing before a HOLY God??? WOW……I would hate to be in there shoes……because their punishment is going to be HUGE…….God is Just……righteous in His judgments…..Praise be to God!

Andrew, Abey, Julie, Damon and others…all of you are judging others…did God not say “judge Yee not, less Yee be judged…the Bible does say that we, as Christians, can be healthy, happy and yes, even have prosperity!!! Have you guys asked in “God’s name” for such? The kinds of things that I have read from you people are mostly HIPPOCRTICICAL ??? Such comments that I have seen here, using your words mixed with God’s words are the kinds of “supposed Christian” information that pushes people away from church, faith, God and belief that God does exit! You sound jealous, another saying in the scriptures along with envy…how can anyone gain anything positive from such messages…speak of kindness, love for everyone, yes even those that you believe are not “telling it right!” God does not need your help…don’t believe me? Watch the kind of comments that I will get back!

@ Dr.Gary,: I agree 100%…..Amen. On another note, Joel does mention God at 1:01 in the video, but I do believe that is the only time. Joel is a “feel good” preacher. I used to like to watch him until I put the comments I’ve been hearing about him to the test. I really enjoy Dr. Charles Stanley the most. He speaks the truth and from the Bible always! He is very down to earth.

He might mention God, but his teachings are still New Age and its bad enough he seems buddy buddy with Oprah the queen of New Age. He never mentions that we need a Savior and that is part of the job of a Pastor, even Billy Graham has more guts to do that. Which side are you on?

I John 8 : If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves & the truth is not in us” . That is critical enough, for they ,Jesus, Apostles & the Prophets preached against sin & were Martyred for it even so the two prophesied witnesses in the latter days are martyred for the same reasons The Joel Osteens & friends it seems will have nothing of this, except making chocolates to the desire of itching ears, to the Prophecy.

Hi Todd, no one here (I don’t think) has made an issue out of Joel not mentioning God. I think it is one of the biggest issues with him but the topic of this post is Joel teaching occult doctrine.

It’s hard to believe but Joel sometimes does mention God to edit Jesus out. Case in point, in his book I DECLARE Joel says that when Lakewood bought the Compaq Center to turn it into the new Lakewood Church the engineers told him it would cost many millions more to renovate the place than had been previously estimated. Joel said he had bad thoughts but chose to to “prophecy his future” by voicing his thoughts and instead relied on God who is called Jehovah Jirah which means God will provide. But that name of God comes from Genesis 22 where God provided a ram for Abraham in place of Issac to sacrifice. Jehovah Jirah does not mean that God will provide millions for a church renovation. It meant that God will provide a lamb to be slain for the sins of the world. But instead of taking a great opportunity in his book to tell people about their sins and need of a savior (which tragically he never does), Joel instead tries to make that name of God mean that He will provide anything we have enough faith to speak and believe positively for. There are many more examples in Joel books that could be made where Joel does about the same thing. Here is a radio program where they give a review of Joel latest book I declare. They do a good job and it will be worth you time to listen to it.

I have not read his book nor follow him on TV but what Joel seems to be promoting is the power of positive thinking. It has biblical roots. For one Jesus said: As a man thinks in his heart so is he. There are many others. Apart from God this is just modern new age thinking. But Gods principles can work with unbelievers too. A positive man will surely succeed more often that one who is constantly negative. But this thinking does not lead to eternal life. One must trust in Christ and his shed blood for the remission of our sins. To deny we sin is foolish. Even those who try and try to be positive will eventually fail and often. Oprah herself admits this. Positive thinking does not cure us of our inherited sin or our sinful nature. BUT Joel Osteen does believe in the cross and repentance and I do not believe he is heretical.

I agree, John. Having a positive attitude, looking at life through grace and knowing if God is for you, then who can be against, is Biblical. It is also the way God created us, as these are psychological issues, as well. Does God want us depressed, beating ourselves up, all the time? I would say no. Jesus came to give life and have it more abundantly. Not only in heaven but here on earth. YES, we must realize we are sinners and fall short of the glory of God. No, we are not God. Joel does not teach that. I would also say, that the Bible is clear that people, including pastors, have different gifts. Joel is a pastor who has the gift of encouragement. He is not an evangelist.

For such always choose the easy & popular way, but redemption comes not that way but by the hard way shown by Christ on the cross, even unto His words “If you do not pick up your crosses & follow me , you are unworthy of me” meaning having no part with him without denying oneself, is but no part in the redemption(unto the Prophecy of the brazen serpent in the wilderness- to ones own flesh by its desires- for even David a man after God’s own heart fell by the flesh). Well Joel, Hinn, the whole lot stay at more than a miles length when it comes to preaching such integral but unpopular words, is but to say unfaithful to the whole word of God, to see no difference between these & the politicians both embedded in popularity, contrary to Christ & his Apostles crucified/killed hated due unpopularity.

I think the spirit of religion has made people believe not only are they worthless but because of their worthlessness, God will not accept them. God does make it clear that it is through Jesus they are forgiven and free from shame and guilt so that is a must but Jesus also gave Himself to people before they gave themselves to Him. However, there was always an element of a searching heart for the real thing and a willingness to give up the idols that cause the sin. I agree people need to believe in themselves to even pray so encouragement is good but I also agree that we need to not offer salvation without repentance. Let’s pray for Joel in his gift of encouragement that he will lead many to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and not just warn people against him but actually cover him in prayer. Thank you for the awareness of the danger this can be and for the honor we need to give Joel and even Oprah for the gifts they carry while still standing firm about where they get off track. We all do without the prayers and encouragement of the saints. I appreciate both the warnings and the understanding. Thank you for this awareness. Wendy

When Adam sinned, God remembered that Adam was made from dust., his worthlessness, but then by His Mercy he let man live by the generations instituting the corrections which man terms as punishments ’cause it involves pain . By the advent of Christ this pain is not removed , for he who himself suffered pain asks us to pick up our crosses to follow him daily, which is but the daily sacrifices, in order to Equate, there is no Shivas “Magic” through “Mesmerising or Hypnotism in any of these with Him, for Occult & Sorcery are of the Adversary. To this when sin & its cause , unto the daily sacrifices are not preached, it is but taking away his word & is called Apostasy, & this Apostasy , today is being called “Gifts”. For in the Prophecy of the two witnesses of God who are killed for their preaching, just as Jesus & his disciples were , is it any wonder that the ones initiating to pick the first stones against them, cause they preach “Negative”, would be these very “Positive preachers” & their people, which is but their own hidden truth.

point taken. again, thank you for warning the church. just remember that behind the sin there is a person and be as careful to pray for them in their deception as you are to warn others about them. we don’t want to burn any bridges when the Holy Spirit reveals their sin. Also good to remember we all sin and fall short of the Glory of the Lord and misrepresent Him ourselves. I appreciate your heart to warn the people. thank you. Wendy

In Ps. 23:7- “6Do not eat the bread of a selfish man, Or desire his delicacies;7For as he thinks within himself, so he is. He says to you, “Eat and drink!” But his heart is not with you. 8You will vomit up the morsel you have eaten, And waste your compliments.… Yes we are to be positive in our thinking according to speaking the scriptures. But we are not to be “positive thinkers” in the since that we walk around thinking “good thoughts.” I take an example of a bodybuilder. He trains months to prepare for a contest, positive in diet and exercise. He does the correct poses at the contest then when it is over he goes back to his normal training life. Only for that one instance does he look perfect. It is difficult to be positive at all times, as we deal with our sin nature. Galatians 5 speaks of the spirit contending with the flesh. Our flesh is alive and well within us. We are to crucify the flesh daily. But we still sin regardless. We are not defeated but victors in Christ. But we still sin in some form or the other, we just don’t practice sin. We are to walk in the spirit and not after the flesh. This daily walk, or practice. Again one has to study the word, keep in constant communication with the Father, fellowship with other believers. Positive thinking is a by-product, not the whole of what we as believers do. One cannot work up positive thoughts constantly.

Jesus never said “As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he”. Rather, this is a verse in Proverbs 23:7 that has been taken completely out of context because in the chapter, David was writing about eating with a miser (or someone with an evil eye). He was warning against eating with such a person despite their invitation due to the fact that as that person treats/measures/judges himself, so will he treat/measure/judge you even if he pretends to want to do otherwise.

@David. Sorry but I have to totally disagree with you on this. There are numerous scriptural references that talk about thinking positively and keeping your thoughts on good things (Philippians 4:8 for example). Jesus even mentioned in Mark 11:23 about the principle of thinking, believing and receiving. Even though Proverbs 23:7 has a reference there to eating with an ungodly person, the principle mentioned there (of the thinking process) is still valid and applicable to other areas.

Amen! 1 Peter 5:8-9 starts out by saying be Well balanced amplified (translation), I find that very interesting! It goes on to say that basically if your not your much easier for the devil to devour…….wow that’s powerful! Not everything that Joel Olsteen is preaching is wrong, but a lot of it is, and a lot of it is scary, just like not everything written in this article is wrong, but some is. The bible says many are the afflictions of the righteous but the Lord will deliver him out of them all, there will be afflictions. Afflictions produce faith! As far as declaring, You shall also decide and decree a thing, and it shall be established for you (Job 22:28 AMP) but teaching people they can have whatever they declare is not the gospel either! Be well balanced. The problem and scary thing today is most Christians now a days are not well balanced.

The fact is that Christians are given a new nature when they are born again but Christians still have their old nature and STILL sin they just sin less than the world. To say that we never sin is wrong and makes God a liar.

Carly,I give you this-Whoever is born of God does not commit sin for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God.1st Jn 3;9……this is one of many which speak to the point that we are not sinners if we are truly born of God…So I challenge you to provide scripture that says that we are sinners just like the world,but we just sin less..

For a fallen man to be born off the Spirit is something like this—“Miracles need not necessarily lead to salvation but his words “The many that I love I Rebuke & Chastise” this for a sure leads to the salvation to His words “Only them drawn to me by My Father will I receive” Like in a dream by the Spirit where a time bomb is strapped on the shoulders of a person which but to reflect the words “My Yoke is easy & my Burden is light” nevertheless highly effective . In short through his works we become born in Him by the Spirit to say “them born of the Spirit cannot sin”. .

@Dane – Romans 3:21-26 talls us and affirms that the only pure, sinless person to have ever walked the earth is Yehushuah – son of the father – and that we can only be reconciled to the father through the atonement of the shed blood of his only son. “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”

Without this the merciful grace of the gift of this reconciliation, man has no path to the father because we are ALL sinners. We are not worthy to even be in His presence. Even as we strive to live a righteous life, our sinfulness was ascribed the moment man fell from Eden – and yet, because He loves, because He is merciful, because He gives us grace, and because He is willing to sacrifice His perfection and (all He asks is us to accept His grace and proclaim that He is our saviour), our sins are forgiven. It doesn’t mean that we are not sinners, or that we are free to live in sin (only to wash it away nightly) – just that we have that mercy.

Dane, your wrong to say Andrea have no sin. 1John 2:8 if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Also Rom.3:25 says that Messiah died for our previous sins. The point is through faith in Messiah we should turn away from our old lawless lifestyle and obey the law of Yahuah as He writes it on our hearts by His Spirit.

Everyone sins, being in the flesh is sinful. In the Bible in Genesis 6:6 it is revealed that even God had sinned,”And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”

This sounds like he made a mistake and to make a mistake is to sin

But through Jesus Christ he made away for his creation to be restored unto him! Colossians 1:20 King James Bible And, having made peace through the blood of his cross(Jesus Christ), by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Sin is doing something deliberately against God, you made the choice and you knew it was wrong. That type of sin can only be forgiven with a sincere heart and true effort to stop doing that sin. You also need to repent because your saved doesn’t give you automatic repentance button.

You need to get down on your needs at your bedside and ask Jesus to forgive you and let him know how sorry you are. After that is done then whatever sin problem you have do what you can to understand why your desiring to do that. Sometimes, it could be a subconscious compulsion that we are not aware of. The only unforgivable sin is the Rejection of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord of your Life.

When an army troop is deployed out onto a war zone they do not go without understanding what it is that they need to do. They examine, the why’s, the what’s, how comes, what next opportunities so that they are prepared for battle.

Use this same strategy with your battle against sin……Hope this helps you and stop being so hard on yourself

Thanks for your comments. But I must write to say how much I absolutely disagree with your opening statement. You wrote:

“Everyone sins, being in the flesh is sinful. In the Bible in Genesis 6:6 it is revealed that even God had sinned,”And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”

God does not sin. The word repent or nacham in Hebrew means to be sorry or regret. It does not mean to sin or “make a mistake.”

You also completely misunderstand God if you think The Lord was somehow “caught off guard” by the sin of Genesis 6. God of course knew that humanity would fall into sin. Which is why the plan of salvation was created even before Adam was:

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. – 1 Peter 1:18-21.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. – Revelation 13:8.

Jesus Christ was slain “from the foundation of the world.” The crucifixion was ordained from before Creation. Why? Because God knew His children would be disobedient but because He “so loved” us, He sent Christ to die for us. (John 3:16).

The Lord Jesus Christ, who Is God, is without sin:

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. – Hebrews 4:5.

To accuse God of sin is to completely contradict the Bible and teach heresy. I strongly urge you to study the Biblical Gospel, find a good Bible-believing church and understand how God is revealed in Scripture. Because what you are saying is very, very far from truth. -B&E

Put take it easy on people. Some people make mistakes. I totally agree with you but a harsh rebuke will only stir up anger. Please take it easy on people who error and have space to even learn more. This is a gospel of peace not war.

This is for the child of God: And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:4-10 KJVhttp://bible.com/1/1jn.1.4-10.KJV

I’m not sure exactly what I’m getting out of this but a friend emailed me this link And what I comprehend is negativity in this article I only see where in this post it says he does not teach the word of god and more or less witchcraft But what I see with my eyes is a person that is indeed saying to get closer to god and be thankful when you wake up and go to a good bible based church (was his words) I may misunderstand what this is projecting but from what I see is it is negative and saying he is not doing right and doing his own teachings When I teach people about my job I do not go by any written instructions I use my own life experiences to teach other how to do the job I have done for 35 years I actually don’t see anything wrong with the way Joel speaks but I did watch a few of his videos due to this email Perhaps this email was to get me to watch his videos and make my own decision about if he is not doing the right thing I perceive him to be doing right I don’t see him asking for money I don’t see anything negative in what he is showing us

Sorry if I differ in my views but my heart tells me it is not wrong what he is doing Perhaps other people see it as wrong but I see only well I am a very street wise person and know a con man when I see one Even if they never say a word I can feel if they are a bad person and I feel no bad vibes from Joel On the other hand I have felt evil enter the room when they walked in the door and it was very chilling

Thank you very much for your comments. While I disagree, I would like to really focus on one point. You wrote: “Sorry if I differ in my views but my heart tells me it is not wrong what he is doing”. This is a big problem from a Biblical standpoint. God is clear on the state of the human heart. The Bible says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9). Relying on our heart or gut feelings to guide us is incredibly dangerous because our hearts are wicked. Why? Because we are all sinners with a sin nature. What should guide us is God’s Word – the Bible. And this article was just an attempt to demonstrate that what Joel Osteen is teaching is not at all in line with the Scriptures. He rarely quotes Scripture and when he does, it is out of context.

You said you can teach someone your job based on life experience. I do not doubt that. But the calling of a pastor is different. And again, we can know this from the Bible. The Bible commands pastors to “Preach the word (meaning the Bible); be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.” (2 Timothy 4:2). This is how a pastor is supposed to preach and teach. And Joel does not do this. Instead he is opting for methods that are found nowhere in the Bible but instead are taken almost verbatim from witchcraft books. Christianity is a supernatural process. It is God’s Spirit opening our eyes to understand His truth and believe in the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. All of this is happening at a spiritual level. So we cannot see it like teaching someone a job. It’s pointing people to the supernatural Messiah who used supernatural means to save the lost and will use supernatural means to redeem and cleanse us until death.

So again, I thank you for your comments. But I strongly urge you to not take my word for it. Go to the Bible. See if the claims made in the article and in this comment are true. Let God be the judge and not your heart or the vibes you are getting. Your heart, like mine, is deceitful. We must put our trust in God, who cannot lie. And God has revealed His will for us through the Bible. I sincerely hope and pray that you search the Scriptures prayerfully and test the spirits coming from Joel based on what the Bible says and not just a feeling. God bless.

Wow! 🙂 Thx Beginning and End! Seriously, you are so spot-on. Three tenets greatly nurtured by our modern times are 1) “Who are we to judge others?”, and 2) “trust and follow your heart”, and 3) ” we are all God’s children”, but those, as you know, are dangerous. Of course, they are sentiments welcomed by non-believers, because they think it lets them “off the hook” about fully accepting or rejecting the gift of Grace from our Creator through Christ Jesus.

There are various ways to say those three things, but generally they are meant to profess patience and fairness and gentleness and sensitivity to the human heart (assumed to be somehow in tune with what is “right”, etc.) and it also assumes (wrongly) that human-kind has progressed now to a greater enlightenment and we can make our own judgments based on feelings and intellect and maybe not take biblical teachings TOO literally if it doesn’t match our enlightened selves. Well.. that’s all actually very “new age”, of course.

Anyway, thank you for including your remarks. It makes me interested in visiting your site soon. 🙂 iLion

Harold, You are exactly correct! It is not ok to belittle true Christian ministers. The Bible goes on and on about watching a person’s conduct. Joel lives an exemplary life. That is only possible by the Holy Spirit. He preaches the Jesus of the entire Bible. I would be scared to open my mouth and spew the hateful words that some on this thread are doing. Wow. Pinkhouse

I used to enjoy Joel. I even have / had his books and DVD’s. THEN, I watched him on satans disciple “oprah” and the Larry King show, deny THE FACT THAT 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Joel told Larry that he wasn’t willing to say that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. He is a fraud, He’s not even a real Reverend, pastor, minister, he’s never been to any seminary of any kind.

Yes, you have humbled yourself before God & have come to the recognition that you are a sinner. Romans 3:23, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. I am so thankful for the truth. Love you, Jesus.

It is really very simple. The message of Jesus Christ is all we are to provide to those hurting, He is our all in all. Yes, Christians sin, however, the more they abide in God’s love through Jesus Christ, Our Savior and Lord, sinning becomes very uncomfortable. The Bible says that sin will no longer have dominion over us. We have been given a way to cease sinning because of the Cross. Anyone who says that true Christians don’t sin is a liar. The only answer to all of our sorrows, pain and suffering is Jesus Christ, the one and only Savior. God, in His infinite Mercy, sent us Grace in the form of His beloved Son, Jesus Christ who became the ultimate sacrifice for sin, sickness and disease (and any other lack we have in our life). Read the OT about the sacrificial system it will be an eye opener. My heart breaks for hurting and suffering people who seek answers from all the wrong people. But the Holy Spirit in His infinite wisdom will place them at the right place at the right time if they are truly seeking. As for all these works that are seen, they are dead works unless Holy Spirit led. Obviously, the Holy Spirit would not sanction ministry that would profess Wikkan philosophies. The sad part is that the enemy of our souls, Satan is very deceptive and cunning and will mask New Age theories and practices under the cloak of Christianity. We must pray for those who are preaching another Gospel. Remember, the Gospel means good news and if what you are hearing is NOT Bible based good news than it is not the Gospel. Humble yourself and seek the Lord for yourself, He is faithful to reveal Himself to those who truly seek Him. God Bless you!

It is but to know that James’s “Faith without works is dead” being most relevant in these latter days of the Prophesied Great Apostasy come from the west intrigued in through Pagan or what the Bible calls “Vain Philosophies” off that ‘ole Golden Calf , which to the said Christian Apostasy finds its basis to that “Faith Only” ( when in the truth it is Grace through Faith where is its works in the Spirit) introduced in through Protestantism- a simple twist indeed, which has come to turn the Bible away from its core essence[misinterpreting the context of Paul’s words) so as negate the teaching of the Two Commandments , the very basis in order to pick up ones own cross so as as equate with him in turn to die in him & subsequently be raised in him unto God as he was/is. There are no short cuts to this . For He said ‘If you love me you will keep my commandments”; & that exactly is what the saints did/do, for when we speak about faith, is the same Faith that was delivered unto them/through them.

“And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.” Romans 11:6 We either approach the Lord through Grace or Works it cannot be both ways. The scripture you speak of regarding Grace through Faith is we receive Grace (and all that Jesus/Grace offers us) through Jesus’ Faith and our little Faith. It is not we who live but Christ who lives in us. When we continue to put SELF into the Redemption we miss out on all the benefits Christ died to bestow on us. Not because God is not pleased with us (for if we are born again we will go to Heaven when we die) but because we refuse to accept the Love of God through Jesus Christ and put our own temporal restrictions on what WE need to do to gain salvation. It is about HIM AND WHAT HE DID AT THE CROSS. Any restrictions we put on the Atonement is simply man made and will cause the Word to be of no effect. The Greek translation of the New Testament breathes new life into scriptures that we have been taking for granted for years. Hence members of the Body of Christ, who continue to listen to the Law and Grace mixture message, will remain in the impotent state in which it is. Many are sick, addicted, entrenched in all kinds of sin with no where to go because they have not heard the truth. The truth is in the message of the Grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ and His Cross and not in our works. Matthew 17:20 Jesus was talking to His disciples. They were relying on THEIR faith to heal the child and not HIS. He readily explains that they only needed faith (to trust in Him) as small as a mustard seed and the child would have been healed. In spite of the disciples unbelief, Jesus healed the child as He is the Merciful Jesus who God has sent to us for Redemption. I understand your quest to expose Apostasy, however you are looking in the wrong direction, your search should be in ministries who negate the gospel of Jesus Christ and lead people to trust in their own works. As I said in a previous post, Grace is unnatural and most people cannot understand any of it without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit through anointed preaching. BTW I also am not a fan of the Osteen ministry, he does not reveal the love of God through Jesus Christ Our Lord. The Love of God through Jesus Christ should be preached each and every time a minister of the Gospel steps foot on a pulpit, as did the Apostle Paul. Then, and only then, will you see the rich fruit that is only produced by the Grace of God–people set free from addiction; marriages being healed and made whole; the sick and infirm healed; liberation from condemnation and depression. I have personally experienced liberation, healing and freedom from depression as well as seeing it all, as a result of Jesus being unveiled in the Word (OT and NT) as the saints come to the full knowledge of the Love God has for us through the sacrifice of His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, Our Lord! Yes we must be careful about under whom we sit, but not for the reasons you are giving. If what is being taught and preached causes condemnation, and bondage you are listening to the mixture message–Grace intermingled with the Law. When the pure Gospel of Grace is preached and taught the people will be liberated to be all they can be in Christ. It is not about US, IT IS ABOUT HIM! Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to the Cross (Jesus’s Finished Work) I cling. Bless you.

Eph2:8-9: ” It is by Grace you have been saved, through Faith & this not from yourselves, It is a gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.” A simple understanding of this as follows: Now Abraham by FAITH offered to sacrifice his Son Issac, (The work involved) as commanded, So God in Lieu of Issac offered his only Son Jesus which act is GRACE, is but to know that the sacrifice of Issac would not bring about the redemption & the subsequent salvation, but Jesus .. In other words the faith of Abraham to the OBEDIENCE, was a reason for God to continue the Covenant with him, which Covenant manifested as the Christ. So Abraham by FAITH accessed the GRACE by which we are saved., for in his faith were the works even unto the words of James “Faith without works is dead”. At the same time Abraham had no reason to boast for it is not Issac but Jesus the Gift from God entirely. In other words there is no works of us to the Grace , but there is works of us to the Faith, which works is “OBEDIENCE” unto Him, the opposite of which is rebellion , for rebellions is as the sin of WITHCHCRAFT. Half preachings called as positive preachings which but amounts to ear pleasings is nothing but pleasing the sin within, is what is widely seen. For the word of God is supposed to be as a sword & it is to hurt , for man in sin(for those who say they have no sin deceive themselves). So following the two commandments, to pick up one’s cross indeed hurts. For when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his Son , it surely was not apleasing but hurting, to the work. Sin cannot withstand sufferings.

God knows the end from the beginning, For the justification of Abraham by faith was in the eyes of God from the very beginning, however Abraham became aware of it only when he was tested, which involved works. So the children of Abraham are them in Christ ,the children of faith, which faith is only known through its works (in the spirit & truth of it.) It is but to know that man cannot think in terms of God but God can think in terms of man, which he proved in the flesh.

Exodus 3:14. I AM is the sacred name of YHWH, the name He said He is to to be called for all time, His title for all ages.

The “Jews” has sought to silence that, and they have convinced many to follow there lead. It is a fascinating study. They turned something that YHWH said to do into a sin through their traditions, which is one of the reasons they were so angry when Yahushua said it. John 8:58.

So every time someone invokes “I am” in the way mentioned above they are, in essence, breaking the first three commandments, which of course Satan just loves. Worth thinking about.

Thank you B&E, beautiful article. I just have one question/concern. Is this the same as in, example : a fellow Christian friend is coughing and sneezing and I say, gosh it sounds like you’re catching a cold. My friend says DONT SPEAK THAT OVER ME, I rebuke .that in the name of Jesus. I hope this doesn’t sound confusing but I notice that more and more people say stuff like that then I feel guilty for replying with my conclusion. And now I find myself saying this same very principle to my kids. Like oh, ” don’t say that, it might happen, or don’t say

bad stuff about you’re self”. Im just a little confused because pastors say don’t call those things as they are but as they should be… is this wrong? ?

gmjsimmons – “Thanks Greg. Before I was a Christian, I had been involved in the occult. After conversion I participated in the Charismatic movement and noted that some of their ideas were more magic than Christian. Some Charismatics believed that properly applied faith was supposed to get you things that you wanted. That idea always seemed﻿ more like my old occult belief than the new way of thinking I found in the Bible and Christ.”

I was in a Charismatic Church that was becoming Word of Faith for about 8 months back in 85. And I run a groupblog of mostly ex-Word of Faithers that post on the WoF. And I have studied, written and posted on the WoF for about 3 1/2 years now. So you might enjoy my additional comments on my posting of Koukl’s video here.

I also just spent about 5 hours responding to Todd’s comments below. My response turned out to be way too long for this comment section so I had to post my response there. But I share why I am so so passionate about this issue there – it’s really trajic. Here is a link to that lengthy response.

PROVERBS 18:21 – Are There Really Life and Death In The Power Of Words? (dedicated to Kenneth Shoebrook)

On the first post above there is over a dozen other links to writings on this topic and about 5 of them are written by Ex-WoFers. None of those are researched and written as well as the one on this page by B&E, but they are still good and give some Ex-WoF insight and some quotes from Occult, New Age, and Witchcraft sites and books. There is even one by an Ex-WoFer that was also formally a Witch. That one might really interest you so I’ll post it here as well.

Ex-Word of Faith Testimony: Ex-WoFer is also a Former Witch who says The Word of Faith is Witchcraft

We also have over 50 testimonies – most from Ex-Wofers, others from some who have been drastically effected by WoF teaching – on our Testimony page here. I often get told those testimonies are the most helpful part of our groupblog to those still in, or strongly influenced, by the WoF.

OK I see. Thank you so much for pointing in the right direction. Seems so elementary and I so how confused it. LOL I like the fact that the man in the video didn’t preach this at me but taught the message.

Like Damon, I have been in church circles in the past where that exact phrase was used (“Don’t speak that over me..” “Speak prosperity into your life!”, etc.). It is just a spin of the same idea Osteen is preaching. We do not attract health, illness or suffering by just speaking about it. Ilness and suffering are a consequence of the cursed world we live in. And as Christians we are to seek God in prayer for the solution to it.

So we do not have to fear telling someone they seem sick if they are sneezing and hacking up a storm. They probably are sick and should get some soup, juices and cold medicine!

When we are scared, hurt, bitter or worried, we can take all these things to The Lord. We can speak them aloud and pronounce it. We can share our pain with those who care about us. That is a part of being a friend, sister or brother. So do not hesitate in this because of a fear that you will “attract” more calamity. And never have that fear with saying negative things to God.

” Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.” – 1 Peter 5:7.

Thank you B&E! I truly treasure your thoughts, opinions, comments, articles, and guidance. You have such a way of showing people the correct way of seeing a matter without being overbearing, but with love and compassion. I can only pray that God blesses me with your kind ofGodly wisdom and discernment. Thanx again! And I love your comment section. I’ll stop now but you’re website is awesome.

Words have the ability to encourage, hurt, impact, curse, or began destruction. See Eph 4:29, Matt. 12:36-37, & Prov. 18:20-21. Throughout the Bible we are instructed to be careful w/ what we say, how we say it, to tame our tongue, & informed of the power & dangers of spoken words. See Lk 6:45, Jm 1:26, Jm. 3:2-21 & Prov. 15:28. Confessing the Word of God over your life is essential for every believer of Christ. If the doctor gives you a bad report, you should not declare what the doctor said as truth, it’s a fact. By confessing & believing what the Word of God says about you & your health & not what the doctor says dont mean one’s in denial regarding his/her circumstances. Rather trusting in what the Word of God says through faith. Why wld you say “I have cancer” or “I’m dying from cancer”, then I healed by Jesus’ strips this act wld be counterproductive. Prov. 16:23-24, Prov. 13:2-3, Prov. 12:18, & Prov. 15:4.

“New Age” religion like many other religions & systems take principles & teachings from the Bible then put their spin on it. This is why it is easy for may Christians (not only believers) to get confused, lead astray, or influenced by false teachings. To eliminate/reduce confusion, I encourage all born-again believers to (1) have/maintain an intimate relationship w/ God through Christ, (2) be impacted by Christ’s resurrection, (3) experience Him daily, (4) read and study the Bible daily – the Holy Spirit will give you revelation, knowledge & understanding, (5) Imitate/reflect Christ; desire to be Christ-like til we are conformed in His image & (6) stop idolizing preachers, persons in authority, celebrities & etc.

Hello there Tiffani, to respond to your response is hard but I will try. I used to debate heavily with “Church of Christ” members over the issue of “Is Baptism required to be saved”. Those that proficiently advanced that Baptism is required had about 15-20 verses that when taken out of context, the rest of the bible ignored and their spin put on those 15-20 verses – seemed very compellingly to teach that Baptism is required “for the remission of sin”. But when you get to examining their proof text it becomes clear that those who advocate that position would do well to learn a few new technical words, if they don’t already know them. Those would be Iesegesis, Exogesis and Contextomy. Here is some defintions that light help .

Iesegesis and Exegesis – “Eisegesis (from Greek εἰς “into” as opposed to exegesis from ἐξηγεῖσθαι “to lead out”) is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that it introduces one’s own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases into and onto the text. The act is often used to “prove” a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation bias in accordance with his or her pre-held agenda. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discover-able meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective. An individual who practices eisegesis is known as an eisegete, as someone who practices exegesis is known as an exegete. The term “eisegete” is often used in a mildly derogatory fashion. Although the term exegesis is commonly heard in association with Biblical interpretations, the term is broadly used across literary disciplines.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis

Contextomy – “The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as “contextomy” or “quote mining”, is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning”.

The reason these words help people see the obvious – that is if you start with a presupposition, go and take passages, verses, phrases and words out of direct and total context; you can the Bible or any book say just about anything you want it to say. But the main rule of language interpretation is – because text without context is pretext- to Iesegete (bring out) the original authors intent and meaning out of the whole and rightly divided text. So is case of those that use 15-20 verses to say that Christians must be baptized to be saved – none of those verses actually say that – and there are over 32,000 verses in the whole of the bible with hundreds of them speaking directly on salvation. But to fit the preconception that baptism is required for salvation those have to be ignored to appear to support baptismal regeneration.

So when looking at all the prooftext you have posted one thing must be asked when considering them. Was the author saying words have power if the sense that they are influential (as you indicate in your first sentences verb usage) or are they magical in the sense that they have creative power? Because after all “God spoke everything into being so maybe we can speak things into being too”. Or is that a false presupposition.

Are these two sentences exegeted out of scripture or iesegeted onto scripture?

“Confessing the Word of God over your life is essential for every believer of Christ”

AND

“New Age religion like many other religions & systems take principles & teachings from the Bible then put their spin on it.”

OR………

are those actually presuppositions that Word of Faith teachers have enforced onto the text, out of context, and you have picked the interpretation of those verses up for them because your myopically focused on these WoF presuppositions. So are you really inferring that belief in the word of God and His promises to us are not good enough and that those promises have to be activated with our confession. Or can we count on those promised because God is God and He is faithful and just to remain faithful even when we are not?

You basically say the same things as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and Paul Crouch here. Can you give me Bible for this,, or are we safe to say that the principle here is not biblical but a WoF preconception?

You imply that my interpretation is flawed bc I erred in my interpretation & quoted scripture out of context/distorted it to impose my interpretation. The same cld be argued abt you. When I read the Word I take into consideration the following: (1) who is the author(s), (2) the audience, (3) aim, & (4) context in which it is written. I also ask Jesus to give me wisdom, revelation, knowledge, &understanding. I’m not one to use the Bible to justify my beliefs or actions but for correction, instruction, & growth. I don’t add & subtract nor pick & choose what to receive or apply from the Word . We have to believe God for who He is & take His Word as it is. Confessions are an act of faith that demonstrates we believe God’s promises will manifest & this world doesn’t dictate or limit us nor what God can do.

Prayer is one of the ways we release the will of God upon the earth. Knowing the Word comes by studying it. Daniel was effective at praying bc he knew the Word of God concerning His ppl. (Dan. 9:2-3) We shld pray w/ understanding (1 Cor 14:15). The words we speak are spirit & life (Jn 6:63). Isaiah 55:8 tells us to articulate the thoughts of God by praying & confessing His Word. God’s Word released through our tongue will cause His power to manifest in our lives. Words are used to convey our thoughts & our actions are a result of our thoughts. Faith requires action – it cld be said faith one form of action. Yes, “Confessing the Word of God over your life is essential for every believer of Christ.” Christianity is called the great confession. Salvation comes from confessing with the mouth. The mouth is connected to the heart. The Word of God released from our mouth will be planted in our heart. Faith is released by action (i.e. speaking the Word, obedience, praying, trusting in God despite our circumstances, being still, & etc.) Jesus taught us that our faith is released through our words (Mk 11:23). Faith-filled words can move mountains. Our faith is key to seeing miracles & breakthrough on a consistent basis.

Lets see if this will go to if I post it here since I cannot respond directly to her last comment. _________

Hi and Thanks for the response Tiffani. I’m sorry if I implied anything with saying it firmly. I did mean to imply that your taking verses out of context as your WoF teachers have taught you to do. I meant to be really forthright about it. But to also emphasize non-WoF teaching against WoF teaching rather than non-WoFer against WoFer. Yes the same thing could be said about me in one sense, in that I hold to the non-WoF position and you to the WoF position. Like I said “So when looking at all the prooftext you have posted one thing must be asked when considering them. Was the author saying words have power if the sense that they are influential (as you indicate in your first sentences verb usage) or are they magical in the sense that they have creative power? Because after all “God spoke everything into being so maybe we can speak things into being too”. Or is that a false presupposition.”

You never answered that question relative to any verses you have reference, nor have you given us scriptural backing for……..

“Confessing the Word of God over your life is essential for every believer of Christ”

AND

“New Age religion like many other religions & systems take principles & teachings from the Bible then put their spin on it.”

……. like I requested. So I think it is safe to say the WoF paradigm is not backed by scripture but by imposing WoF (really occultic) preconceptions onto the bible. You may not be adding but all WoF teachers certainly do. The whole WoF distinctive of Power of Words/ Confession teaching is that faith is redefined as a force or spiritual law – as opposed to simple trust – thus adding to scripture. Every major name WoF teachers you can bring up – including Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen – can be easily proven to teaching that very thing.

In one sence you, Hinn, Copeland and Crouch are right. Satan and his minions do try to copy God. But there are limts to that. And with the WoF it is not a matter of Satan copying what God does but getting Gods children to copy what he – Satan – tries to copy from God. See God is God and only His words (or confession if you must) have power because He is the Lord God, The Creator of heaven and earth and all things. He needs no faith, no force and no spiritual law to tap into to create. The idea that there is power in things like spiritual laws and forces IS the very very essence of the occult. To get his people to try to copy God Satan throws at his children these laws and redefinition of faith at them and tells them they don’t need God because they are little gods (Most WoF teachers teaching this common WoF presupposition too).

Because I was once Charismatic and almost became a WoFer except I had already had to study the occult because my Uncle is a Mormon bishop and Mormonisms founder Joseph Smith was a freemason – so I already had a big big Clue in advance that the WoF stuff is really occultism and witchcraft veiled in Christian terms.

But we can go back and forth all day. How about we look at the Scriptures you have posted. Like with the 15-20 verses that Church of Christ’ers use to say you have to be baptized to be saved, I have looked intently at the 20 -30 scriptures WoF teachers use out of context to teach their aberrant and heretical non-Christian occult based doctrine that has a distinct historical line of being brought into Christianity through EW Kenyon and popularized Kennth Haggin.

In your first paragraph here you list 7-8 scriptures. Lets deal with those first, if you’re up to it. Please expound on the verses you used here and tell us why they mean what the WoF teaching says they mean.

“Words have the ability to encourage, hurt, impact, curse, or began destruction. See Eph 4:29, Matt. 12:36-37, & Prov. 18:20-21. Throughout the Bible we are instructed to be careful w/ what we say, how we say it, to tame our tongue, & informed of the power & dangers of spoken words. See Lk 6:45, Jm 1:26, Jm. 3:2-21 & Prov. 15:28.”

Confuse not manifestation with channeling, just as regeneration is confused with reincarnation Like when God talks He creates His words into the mind & to this there is no medium, where as man as also the devil requires a medium, to the words “The Prince of the power of Air—-” Unto people like Moses specifically God put His word into his mouth & hence were Living words to the specific tasks, in contrast to saying “Using the word of god which is nothing but trying to Channel the word from god through misinterpretations, last but not the least, If anyone were to stand in front of Him in His Glory, such thoughts would not even cross ones mind. For even the god of this world standing before Him does not speak unless spoken to.. Finally confuse Him not as a man sitting crossed legged in the OM’s & Avum’s to chanting “Love & Fresh air”. to all those stalwarts saying god told me this & god told me that.

Joel Osteen is the Pastor of Lakewood Church, the biggest congregation in America for a reason. His preaching of the Bible is simple and gets right to the heart of his christian followers all over the world . Joel Olsteen always mentions God & Jesus in all that he preaches, just read his books. I have :)))))) He says that all these positive affirmations take effect when you live in faith……. faith in God and Jesus. Words are very powerful and when spoken, they go out into the spiritual world of which Jesus is the master, Jesus is our saviour, redeemer and miracle worker. Joel Olsteen is not a false prophet as is suggested above.

The name Jesus can be said in the Spirit as well as in the flesh, but when said in the Flesh is to the corruptions of the mind, when Jesus becomes another Jesus & the Gospel becomes another Gospel, which is but saying the truth is to the world ,conforms to the ways of the world when actually Jesus said just the opposite “My kingdom is not of this world, so is the peace”. To the likes of Joel’s, preaching the prosperity & the well being, fine as it seems, to large gatherings except to the millions of poor & suffering, who have no cause to live in this world, but still do for the one reason which is the Hope, these people cannot equate with these prosperity & feel good preachings & feel alienated, taking away their only thread to life The Hope, a great crime these preachers in the gatherings of the itching ears do. But to Know God who is said to be long suffering Himself equates with these poor & sufferings ones, through the sufferings, & this is what the Son of God himself did to his way., quiet contrary to these half preaching “Elitists”, confirming with the Bible Prophecies to the false preachers., for they disregard that the purpose off this life even in all the poverty & suffering, is to the salvation.

B&E, That is the crux of the matter in regards to the speaking of words; to not be in fear about it. Some people do speak curses onto other people bc they have a wrong spirit and when they casually comment that they think you are sick, they are spewing evil forces. We still don’t have to fear and we can disagree with someone’s assessment of our health. Really, is it anyone’s business to say, hey I think you are getting sick! That is just weird, anyway. If I would rather say that I am fighting an illness than to say I have an illness, why do you care? It isn’t a false doctrine to want to not speak words to reinforce illness. By Jesus’ stripes I was healed. That is a spiritual truth that is a higher law than natural truth. I choose to have faith that Jesus’ work is greater than what I see with my eyes. That is not delusional or denying reality. It is agreeing with the Bible. You can talk about your problems with God or a friend… no problem. You can also choose to focus on Jesus and His works for us. We can do both. The motivation behind our words is crucial. I don’t see anything wrong with pointing out that some faith teaching has caused people to have faith in their words and not in Jesus; evidenced by having fear about saying the wrong thing… I just don’t think that bc someone teaches to speak positively, that they necessarily have a wrong spirit. The Bible teaches to speak good things. pinkhouse

Reply to Jameccia: When the lady said that she rebuked what you said, she sounded fanatical and yet she is correct in her practice of how she talks. Proverbs 18:21 states: Life and Death is in the POWER of the tongue and those who love it will eat it’s fruit. Most of know when we have cancer or even a bad cold, but those of us that understand that Prov 18:21 means what it says, are cautious to how we speak.

We don’t want people to speak negative things about us because of that scripture. Maybe this will help you to understand how to be honest and yet be positive in your speaking. If I were to have a disease I would only tell those that I could trust to pray for me in a positive way, first of all. The ones that I did tell about it, I would probably state something like this: “The doctor says that have a disease, but I declare that the healing that I received through the stripes of Jesus (Isaiah 53:5 and 1 Peter 2:24) is manifested.” We need to always quote scripture for whatever circumstance we are in. If we are in a lack of money we could quote Luke 6:38 “Because I’ve given, it will be given back to me pressed, shaken together and running over, men will give into my bosom.” God has the power to bring us help however He choose, but He chooses to bring it by man most of the time. It sets an example of how Jesus served and that is what He wants us to do; help each other. Just remember to not speak negative and to speak positive and always in the name of Jesus.

Our power to speak what we want comes from Holy Spirit that God the Father sent to us through Jesus Christ His Son and our Savior! That’s the problem with what Pastor Joel Olsteen and Ophra are teaching. They are teaching to speak by our power and leaving out in the name of Jesus. Jesus is our power. Phil. 4:13 We can do all things through Jesus who strengthens us. Col. 3:17 All that you do in deed or word, do it in the name of Jesus and give thanks to the Father through Jesus Christ! Speaking positive is something me and my wife are still working on. We correct each other in a loving way. And restate what we just said in a positive way.

Research has shown that when we tell a child “Don’t play in the street;” that the child’s mind registers “Play in the street.” And state “stay off the stairs” not “Don’t play on the stairs.” I learned this later in life. I think I now understand why my son kept doing what I told him not to do, because I should have been telling him what to do. Stating the positive is easy it’s just a new life style we need to practice and get used to doing. You’ll find it worth changing! Remember: Life and Death is in the power of the tongue; that’s not what I said, that’s scripture. I hope this has been of help and remember that God loves us more than we can understand, even in our imperfection! God Bless! Dr. Gary

Hi Dr. Gary, I appreciate your tone with Jameecia and the love shown within your post but I have to heartily disagree with you. I hope I can show the same love while doing so. I may respond to the rest of your post later but first I would like to try to get you to examine all of Proverbs 18.

There are two ways verse 21 can be interpreted and applied, that being 1. literal and 2.non-literal/metaphorical.

Traditionally the verse has been interpreted and applied non-literally. And I think for good reason. But the WoF paradigm tends toward a literal translation which would be that there is literally life and death in the power of the tongue so we have to be careful what we speak because what we say will come to pass. So if you say your head hurts so bad you think you might die you’re in jeopardy of killing yourself with your own words, so be careful of because you will possess what you confess. It’s like believing that words spoken in faith in Jesus name are magical. But the historical non-literal/metaphorical interpretation and application is that the phrase “Life and death are in the tounge” is a hyperbolic figure of speech that merely means that words are influential so that they can be used for good or bad as in you can hurt people and tear them down with words (bring death) or you can build them up and bring life to them.

So the question that must be asked in interpreting this verse is are words,,, magical or merely influential? I can count about 15 indicators from the context of proverbs 18 that verse 21 means that words are merely influential and are not magical. But yet I see nothing from the context that words are magical. But yet the context repeatedly shows words are influential.

I know Word of Faith teachers use other passages to bolster their interpretation of Proverbs 18:21, but for now can you show me any indicators or anything from the context that Words are magical and that there is literally power of life and death in the tongue?

Here is the whole passage for you to point those indicators out to Jameecia and the rest of us. Thanks and God Bless brother.

Pro 18:1 Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom. Pro 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself. Pro 18:3 When the wicked cometh, then cometh also contempt, and with ignominy reproach. Pro 18:4 The words of a man’s mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Pro 18:5 It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment. Pro 18:6 A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes. Pro 18:7 A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul. Pro 18:8 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly. Pro 18:9 He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster. Pro 18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe. Pro 18:11 The rich man’s wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit. Pro 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility. Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. Pro 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear? Pro 18:15 The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge. Pro 18:16 A man’s gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men. Pro 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him. Pro 18:18 The lot causeth contentions to cease, and parteth between the mighty. Pro 18:19 A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle. Pro 18:20 A man’s belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled. Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. Pro 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD. Pro 18:23 The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly. Pro 18:24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.

Thanks for your kind comments. It’s great to be able to disagree and do it with the love of God toward each other. Yes, I watched the video and you asked me to comment on it.

In my earlier comments, I explained that our words have no power if from us (that is when spoken in a spiritual way). It should be obvious to us that people that speak positive function better even if they are lost in sin, but they are still doomed to hell if they don’t receive Jesus as their Savior! Who of you enjoys being around someone that is always speaking negative? We shouldn’t have a problem with teaching about speaking positive, but when it is brought into the spiritual realm, we should explain that the power we have in our speaking comes from Holy Spirit that is sent to us from Father God! John 20:22 Jesus breathed on the disciples and they received Holy Spirit. Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8 Jesus tells them to go a wait in Jerusalem for the “power” of Holy Spirit, which came to them in Acts 2:4. Same Holy Spirit, but the “power” of Holy Spirit came in Acts 2:4 and God wants us all to function in that power! That’s the power we need when speaking what we want in the name of Jesus!

Mr. Kouki states that words are powerless. He uses the sons of Sceva to show how they spoke to the demon and the demon asked them who they were; if I recall they said that they knew Jesus and Paul, but who are you? As the story goes the demon attacked the seven brothers and they ran away naked and wounded. Please, understand their words had no effect or power because they were speaking on their own. Let us look at the other side of this coin. Jesus set the example for us over and over when He commanded demons to come out and they did. His disciples commanded demons to come out and they did. Jesus spoke to the wind, while His disciples were in fear on the boat and the storm ceased. He didn’t think for the storm to stop, He commanded it to stop! And He rebuked them for not having the faith to do it! Peter and another disciple were on their way to the temple and told a cripple “silver and gold I have none, but get up and walk in the name of Jesus!” And he took the man by the hand and the man jumped up leaping. Again, Peter spoke a loud what he wanted and it happened. He was working under the power of Holy Spirit that came in Acts 2:4 and he knew that God would heal the man!

Mark 11:22-24 Tells us to speak, believe and not doubt and we can have what we say. We have other scriptures stating to ask and you will receive. By the way, two meanings for the word “ask” in Greek are to “demand” or “require.” 1 John 5:14 (paraphrasing) we can ask what we want and we will get it if it is the will of God. Don’t most of us, when praying, say Amen at the end? Amen means “so be it.” We’ve commanded it to be done in the name of Jesus; not by our power but the power of Holy Spirit who God sent to us through His Son Jesus! Again, speaking a loud what we want!

My wife and I have performed deliverance on others (cast out demons) just as Jesus and His disciples did. We didn’t think about it or ponder it, we commanded them to come out in the name of Jesus. This is performed by others many times and is common practice among those who believe that it can be done.

My wife and I worked in the “Healing Rooms” that originated in Spokane, Wa. God hasn’t put these healing rooms all over the world to be a mockery to Him; people are healed. God works however He wishes. God is looking for someone who will do what He asks of them and He will give us the faith if we choose to use it. Some were healed immediately and others over a period of time. We didn’t think about their being healed or beg God for their healing. We did as Jesus said in Mark 11:22-24. We spoke for them to be healed in the name of Jesus. Remember, Jesus set the example for us when He was here on earth, will send us the power of Holy Spirit if we will only accept Him! Then we can function as Holy Spirit leads us. And if we are in His will, the demons will come out and sick and diseased will be healed when we speak it in the name of Jesus! Again, if the person isn’t healed immediately, don’t be concerned, you’ve done as the Word commands you to do; the rest is up to God. Again, everyone at the “Healing Rooms” aren’t healed immediately and when Jesus healed they weren’t always healed immediately; check out the scriptures where Jesus healed.

What I discuss, with all of you reading this, is not only scriptures that I feel that I can prove what I believe, but it is a lifestyle. Look at what Jesus told His disciples (and we now) in Mark 16:15-18 “Go make disciples of all nations, etc. The first thing He told them they would be doing is casting out demons, speaking in other tongues, that serpents would not hurt us, drank anything deadly and it will not harm you and lay hands on the sick and they will recover. The reason few are doing those things is because we refuse to allow Holy Spirit to work through us to get the job performed. And this doesn’t mean to start handling rattle snakes and drinking poison! However, there have been people that have drank poison not knowing what it was, that was given to them intending for them to die by someone else and God allowed no harm to come to them. We we are spiritually where we need to be in our relationship with Jesus the Christ, the devil cannot touch us. The devil can only do to us what God allows; read the book of Job.

There is much more that I could share about miracles that God is still performing, but don’t want to get too lengthy. It’s so exciting what we see happening when we accept the “power” of Holy Spirit. It’s soooooooo much more rewarding than what I experienced previously. I was saved and if I had died I would have gone to heaven, but I’d never want to go back to functioning without the “power” of Holy Spirit.

One last comment: If what we call “Prosperity Preachers” are teaching the word about tithing and the giving of offerings, they are teaching what is scripture. Read Malachi chapters 3-8. And Jesus confirms tithing (giving to church where you attend) in new testament. Tithing is easy to understand how much to give as it is 10%. How do we know what offerings to give if we don’t have a relationship with God to hear from Him in how much He wants us to give? And tithing is on all of our first increase whether it be what we’re earning or what is given to us. Giving where God promises us to be blessed is from what we give other than tithing. Tithing is God’s automatically and we do it to be obedient, being the main reason. Of course, all that we have is God”s. What we give when He tells us to give money to someone, for example, is what He returns blessings on us. That is what the “Prosperity Preachers” should be preaching. Sending our tithes to other than the church God has placed us, is not scriptural. I’d be sure God is speaking to me before I send money to other than my own church! If you knew how some of the TV evangelists are spending their money (might be your money), you’d probably realize it isn’t God telling you to send it!

Gods Blessings to all of you! God loves you and so do I? Yes, we can even love those we don’t even know and haven’t seen! But only because Jesus first loved us! I pray for those that I don’t know exist as well as others; know that I’m praying for you. Jesus is waiting for each of you to just receive Him as you Savior. Study your Bible, pray and spend time just being quiet and listening for God to impart into you. He will guide us in every step or our lives daily, if we will only obey Him. You’ll never regret it!!! And always remember what Paul tells us about LOVE in chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians.

Hi Again Dr, Gary. I should have been more clear that I was more interested in you validating for us your and the word of faith teachers interpretation of Proverbs 18:21 as spoken words have power than I was to hear what you thought about the video. Can you show us where the validation for that interpretation for that verse (power of life and death is in the tongue) is according to the verses context? Thanks 🙂

Dear Damon, Rom_10:10 ForG1063 with the heartG2588 man believethG4100 untoG1519 righteousness;G1343 andG1161 with the mouthG4750 confession is madeG3670 untoG1519 salvation.G4991 When I confess Jesus as Lord before another human being I am born again by the Spirit of the Living God; the Holy Spirit quickens my spirit to life. Are you born again Damon? Why would you deny the power of the Holy Spirit? Jesus says he gave authority to the believer to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of our testimony. The Word of God is our sword of the Spirit. We use it by speaking. Obviously, that is scriptural to say that death and life are literally in the power of the tongue. Also, signs and wonders follow the preaching of the Word. If you aren’t seeing miracles and signs and wonders, maybe it is bc you aren’t preaching a true gospel. I pray God shows you a sign and a wonder and you truly find the Holy Spirit. He didn’t stop working. He works through our words of faith in Him as led by Him, hopefully. Words are powerful, like it or not. That is how God made them. For good or evil they are spirit and they are powerful. That is why we will be held accountable for every idle (useless/evil/careless) word. God is in Heaven and we are humans on the earth; our words should be few. peace man

“—but rather rejoice that your names be written in the Lamb’s book of life” is to say be not deluded, for miracles , signs & wonders the devil also does, is but to eventually know that what was thought as the power of the Holy Spirit was not the Holy Spirit, cause the emphasis is not on Love even unto His Commandments but to Power, to the likes of Simon Magus in Gnosticism, moreover it is not the mind but the Spirit that confesses one’s faith in God, for the Spirit knows neither Lie nor Deceit. Not so “Pinky” as it sounds made out by Apostates to the likes of Joel Osteens who indeed do their work, in the days of Apostasy, so that the Prophecy be fulfilled “Gathering unto themselves, Preachers to their itching ears” to hear what they like to hear, just as the way of Sin, is to wait at the door step to be taken

Hi Damon, Well, I am learning about this type of communicating and it seems too many points at one time is not very effective. So, just to reply to one point at a time, I would point out that Jesus never said He wanted to bring division. That is Bible. He said He came to bring division between light and dark, goats and sheep, life and death… His being here on earth was Light to expose the darkness. That is a very different thing than causing division among believers; which He detests. I spoke very specifically and with Bible in my heart and it comes out. I don’t quote verse bc you already know it and if you haven’t gotten it from reading it you aren’t going to “get it” from me in that form. I did not say one thing un true. Just saying that He wants to divide shows a wrong heart motive. His heart is for none to perish. He never wants even one person to go to hell. His heart, His Spirit is for peace. That is why He died. He is a peacemaker. Because I focus on what you are neglecting, the Spirit, does not mean I under value His Word! The Pharisees had His Word in high esteem, but they completely missed His heart. Love in Christ, Pinky (love it)

Dear PinkHouse, instead of bloviating you could have could have really spoken only a few words if you had just answered my request to Dr. Gary to substantiate the WoF (words have creative power) interpretation of Proverbs 18:21 from the context of Proverbs 18:21. I guess if you could have, you would have.

Dear Damon, We are made in the image of God. He is creative. We are creative. He speaks and it has power. We speak and it has power. I agree with you that there are people who practice witchcraft and use words to accomplish manipulation and control over people and situations with a wrong spirit. It is nit picking and trying to base your entire doctrine on a technicality to say a word does not have magic power. The power of the spoken word is in the life’s breath of the one speaking. For good or evil our words are powerful. If I raise a child speaking negatively over them for years, those words will create that negativity in that child. It is actually very obvious that words have creative power. So your insisting that someone prove it to you kind of makes you seem dense. It is un Biblical to denounce a person’s entire ministry without proof of wrongdoing by two or three witnesses. Joel is a well known minister. You should care about his private life. We are to live holy lives and especially as ministers. The fact that he does live a holy life is evidence for his validity as a Christian preacher bc no one can live holy without the Holy Spirit.

The difference between Occult/Hypnotic power & Creative power is the difference between Bahomet(the god of freemasonry) & Jesus . Where the former is used to control & manipulate the latter is to produce fruit, they do not complement each other. Unto man the fruit is by his works as manifestation of his words through the sweat of his brow , that God gave as the first remedy against sin. Unfortunately the power which you are deluded to believe is off the former, deceived through many a preachers called in hidden occultism.

Dear Pinkhouse, you keep conflating issues to blurs the lines. You start out saying that as God does, what we say has power when we speak. But God created everything out of nothing. Can you create something from nothing? I didn’t think so.

When dealing with what does it mean that words have power (because everyone agrees that words have power) the question must be asked is, do words have literal creative power or merely the power to influence. There is no cosmic law that says speaking negative to a child “creates” that negativity in that child. I grant you it is likely. But when you speak to a child a child can often times be obstinately resilient and can chose to not let bad words of criticism harm them. But when God said Let there be,,,, there was no choice involved. Everything that is lept into being because God words has literal creative power, not just the power to influence. It kinda makes you look bad when you cannot distinguish the difference between the two types “power on words” and you use them interchangeably in a non sequitur fashion.

You also use conflation to obfuscate in another way. We are here talking about Joel Osteens teaching, not his “private life”. I could really care less about Joels private life. It is his teachings that are of concern. And you have no way of objectively knowing that Joel leads a “holy life”, anyway – and it is irrelevant whether he does or not. It’s his teaching that is in focus, not his character.

And you commented on a post thread where Dr, Gary was asked to validate the WoF interpretation of Proverbs 18:21 according to the context of the verse. It is not dence to ask you and others to validate the text according to it’s context. Text without context is pretext and you have imposed a meaning on the text that is not demanded by it’s context. You have iesegeted (read your presupposition into the text) rather than exegete it. If you or Gary could have validated the WoF interpretation from the context of the text, you would have done it long ago and would not have to conflate so much to appear to have said something.

damon: Hi Again Dr, Gary. I should have been more clear that I was more interested in you validating for us your and the word of faith teachers interpretation of Proverbs 18:21 as spoken words have power than I was to hear what you thought about the video. Can you show us where the validation for that interpretation for that verse (power of life and death is in the tongue) is according to the verses context? Thanks

Hi Damon and everyone! The following is my reply to your reply on June 23,2013 @5:57 P.M.

IS THE FOLLOWING SCRIPTURE LITERAL? Proverbs 18:21 – – Life and Death is in the power of the tongue and those who love it will eat its fruit. Let’s look at scriptures that show words have brought people to life: Luke 7:12-15 – – Jesus brings young man back to life. Vs. 14-15 “Young man I say to you arise.” So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. John 11:43-44 “Now when He (Jesus) had heard these things, He cried with a loud voice “Lazarus come forth” and he who had died came out bound hand and foot with grave clothes and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them “Loose him and let him go.” Have you ever thought what would have happened if Jesus had not called Lazarus by name and had just said “come forth?” Now about men and women other than Jesus “speaking” people from dead to life: 1 Kings 17:17-24 – – Vs. 21-22 “O Lord my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah and the soul of the child came back to him and he revived. Acts 9:40 Peter speaks “Tibitha arise” and she comes back to life. Smith Wigglesworth (1859-1947)- – Was said to have brought at least 14 people back from the dead. He stated that he brought his wife back from the dead 3 times. Heidi Baker, now ministering with her husband and others in Mozambique Africa has stated: “If you want to get a Muslim to come to Christ, just raise someone from the dead.” You ask “Why doesn’t the general public hear about these things?” Do you really think the news media wants us to hear things about how our Savior is performing miracles? When Ms. Baker went to Africa God told her to not refuse caring for one child. She proceeded to take in 200 children into her own home. The last I heard she had 10,000 children that are being cared for by Ms. Baker, husband and staff. I understand many times (I wouldn’t doubt if it’s not every day) God performs a miracle by literally multiplying food for all of them. Remember the 4,000 plus women and children and 5,000 plus women and children that Jesus prayed and food was multiplied? Jesus hasn’t changed, have we? Where is the faith of many of us? Raising people from the dead has been performed by the power of God in many places through the past years to include America. I understand that about 21 people were raised from the dead during a meeting at Lakeland, Florida a few years ago. At least one was recorded being raised from the dead in Ireland and others in different parts of the world through the meeting at Lakeland do to the meetings being transmitted by satellite. It’s been shown in these previous statement examples of “life” being spoken and people coming back to life. If we were to seriously investigate, I’m sure we would come up with many more cases (documented) of people being raised from the dead, when they are commanded to in the name of Jesus. And when investigating, I feel that we would find that these people that do the commanding back to life are ones that received “power” of Holy Spirit as those did in Acts 2:4, because that is the way God chooses to perform most of the miracles, if not all of them. CAN DEATH LITERALLY BE BROUGHT ABOUT BY WORDS SPOKEN? I feel that it has been proven that “words” spoken, in the name of Jesus, can literally bring people back to life. That being so, why would negative words not literally bring death as is written in Proverbs 18:21 “Life and Death is in the power of the tongue and those who love it will eat its fruit?” Is it likely that the “Life” part of the verse is literal and the “death” part of the verse is not literal? I think we understand that words that can cause “death” are not spoken in the name of Jesus. We need to realize that Satan is now in control of this world because God has allowed him. And he has power to cause all the destruction that God allows. Always know that God has power of the enemy; Satan and his demons can only do what God allows him to do (Please, read first few chapters of the book of “Job”), and much is performed through Satan and his demons due to the fall of Adam and Eve (after they sinned). If we were to seriously investigate, I feel that we could document many cases of deaths coming about after witches and witch doctors speaking words of death. Of course, some of us have heard of voodoo and sticking pins in the voodoo dolls and people dying. However, my goal is to give what can be documented, especially from Bible scriptures. Please, understand that the scriptures that I’m now giving are to document “words” did cause death in the Bible, by God, but not by Satan. God brought the death sentence to the Israelites because of their negative words. Numbers 14:1-2 “So all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried and the people wept that night. And the children of Israel complained against Moses and Aaron, and the whole congregation said to them “If only we had died in the land of Egypt! Or if only we had died in this wilderness. Vs. 26-29 “And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron saying “How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me?” Say to them “As I live,” says the Lord, “just as you have spoken in my hearing so I will do to you. The carcasses of you who have complained against me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. Vs. 35 “In this wilderness they shall be consumed and there they shall die! Please, read all of Chapter fourteen of the book of Numbers. From these scriptures given, it is very easy to understand that God is not pleased with us being negative. And we should all strive to speak only positive things. And some of those positive things spoken, each day, should be in thanks to God for His awesome love and mercy that He has had on us! God’s wonderful grace that He has given to us is what we don’t deserve and His mercy is holding back what we do deserve! I pray this writing has been of help to each of you! There is much we can discuss in God’s Word the Bible, but bottom line is: What is our relationship with our Savior Jesus the Christ? If we haven’t received Jesus as our Savior, we can know every word of the Bible and explain it all and be doomed to spend eternity separated from God and spend eternity with Satan and his demons. Receive Jesus as your Savior, Romans 10:9-10 and 1 John 1:9, pray, study His Word the Bible, take time to just simply be quiet and listen to God to impart into you and be obedient. God will do the rest. Matthew 11:29-30 Jesus states “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Phil. 4:13 “We can do all things through Jesus Christ who gives us the strength.” My previous reply to Brother Damon gives more scriptures about speaking a loud what we want. God’s Blessings to each of you! You are in my prayers. Dr. Gary

Sorry so long to get back to you. Somehow I missed your response above.

You have done allot to obfuscate the issue and make it complicated when it is not. Your anecdotal responses really mean nothing because I can show you testimony after testimony that the WoF power of words teaching does not work for people. But you still have not shown how you can validate your interpretation of proverbs 18:21 from the context of the whole of proverbs 18. I guess since you have not done that we can rest assured that you cannot. Please show us how you validate your and the WoF interpretation from proberbs 18 without all the extrapolation, obfuscation and anecdotes.

Hi Jameccia! I replied to your post a few days ago and Bro. Damon replied to what I said to you about Proverbs 18:21 “Death and Life are in the power of the tongue and those who love it will eat its fruit.” I think you will be interested n my reply to the video June 21, 2013 @1:04 A.M. and today, June 23, 1013 @ 6:02 P.M. about that scripture.

I am….forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ! I am saved by grace through faith IN Jesus Christ, Son of God, Returning King of Kings, Rider on the White horse!! I am….washed in the blood of Jesus, NOT my own way of thinking!

Joel Osteen, Oprah, Wayne Dyer, Deepok Chopra, Gary Zukav, and many others are on the right path!

If you would just read their books you would know. They go by the teachings of Jesus Christ, Buddah, Dali Lama, or whatever good and loving “SOURCE” you believe in. I am in total peace since I have found these people. They teach unconditional love for all people. That’s what Jesus wanted. They also teach not to judge others because we do not know what path they follow. Life is physical lessons here that our spirit must learn before returning to God or Source. They are teaching us to have faith. What is wrong with that?

Sorry for being much later in replying to your comment. I never read this site until a short time ago. I pray that you are contacted by email when new comments come up. Have you read the other comments that I’ve given recently to Bro. Damon and others?

I encourage you to seek God where to attend church and study the Bible closely and ask God to reveal to you His truth. There are more commands of God than just the ten commandments. One of them is to not forsake the assembling (Hebrews 10:25). Paul is telling us to be in church services. Eph. 4:11 tells us that “He Himself (God) made those to be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers to equip us to do the ministry and to edify us (build our faith and benefit us). That means to prepare us to go outside the church and perform the Great Commission (Mark 16:15-18).

We must understand that satan is subtle. Part of that being subtle is to put in some truth and positive things into teachings of other religions that are not of God. Jesus is the only man that can be proved to have risen from the dead. And, of course, He returned to heaven to be with the Father. Please, read John Chapter one and John 5:19 through the end of chapter to understand who Jesus is. I feel it is important for each of us to know who Jesus is before going on to the rest of the Bible. I encourage you to then start in Matthew and study the New Testament.

Just studying the scriptures in John, helps us to understand that Jesus the Christ is the only way to God the Father and that all things, from the beginning, were placed in the hands of Jesus by Father God and that Jesus does nothing without seeking Father God first.

As you read in John, you will find that the Word, Father God and Holy Spirit were in heaven until The Word became flesh in John 1:14. After Jesus came to the earth, we say Father, Son and Holy Spirit You see Word, that became Jesus, created the earth, us and all things! God creating the earth, etc. in Genesis, as Holy Spirit hovered, was the part of the three (triune or trinity) that became Jesus.

Please, just remember, anything that strays from the teaching of the gosple of Jesus is false, no matter how positive or wonderfuol it might sound. Remember, the devil is subtle and the father of all liars. Deception is his greatest and most powerful tool. Once we are deceived he has us where he wants us. However, praise God, we can change and have a powerful relationship with our Savior Jesus the Christ when we study God’s Word the Bible and be obedient to what is stated in the Bible. Remember what we are told in Eph. chapter six; the sword is our weapon and that sword is the word of God in which we do Spiritual battle against satan and his demons.

First, “Jesus is God” is not Biblical at all. Jesus is God’s son, a human messiah, our Lord and savior. Please do heavy research on this subject (oneness, trinity, Arianism, modalism, etc.) b/c these are all false teachings of men and are crippling Christian’s in ways that cannot be discerned by those who “know the truth.”

“Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.” 1 Corinthians 3:18

Who am I, other than a fellow believer like you? Our path to our Father by way of our Lord Jesus is a plentiful journey and I encourage you to beware of what you may already know. All I did was defend the trinity for all my life, and I was challenged by a dear brother to seek answers for the truth behind such claims as 1 Corinthians 8:6, and others which require “alternative explanation” and aren’t explicitly or precisely explained in scripture. Sure, I could explain John 8:58 and John 1:1-14, but when I studied the original languages and the meaning of the terminology used, those questions in my mind were answered. The answer is: the trinity can be read into scripture, but it isn’t our Father’s message. It took me into deep studies (most of which I was in denial), yet I prayed for God to reveal to me His perfect truth even if it is different from my understanding. I pray the same for you.

“Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?” Malachi 2:10

“Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself” Isaiah 44:24

“…For I am God, not a man, the holy one in your midst…” Hosea 11:9

“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” John 20:17

Other than that, this is a great article. “For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” Matthew 7:12-14. These Oprah & Osteen followers should do more comparing their lives with scripture versus seeking the pleasures of their hearts. May God bless them with contrition, and may we all repent of our sins in Jesus’ name.

They are wolf’s in sheep’s clothing. I remember a few years ago Joel Osteen was on Larry King and when asked if Jesus was the only way to heaven and he said there were many ways to heaven if I remember right. It’s beyond me how people can’t see this man is obviously a phony and an actor.

You are correct Scott, he REF– USED to say Jesus was the only way. These two are doing all this for money. When you take you eye off GOD…it never goes well!! You know you are living in the last days when you see FALSE teachings!!

There are many different ways people believe, but we all believe in the same “GOD”, we just believe in the way we feel is right….what we have been taught by our parents. God understands us all and loves us all unconditionally…..do you understand what that means??? Jesus died on the cross for us. Let’s appreciate that gift. If you have to condemn others, you are not happy with yourself. Please do what Jesus said….”LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU.’

Hali, you have done well to quote Jesus, you just stopped short. Consider these words of Jesus:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:18 ESV)

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:16

Hali, those who reject Christ, who don’t take Him at His word, are SELF-condemned. We need not fear the condemnation of man: “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!” Luke 12:5

You could certainly be correct that Pastor Joel is a phony and an actor. However, I believe that he is doing what he thinks is correct.. I think that he has been deceived by the devil. We pray that whatever is going on with him, Bishop Jakes and others, God will have mercy on them and they will repent and get back where they need to be in Christ. And I feel it is important that they repent on national TV before the world, so that those deceived by them will have an opportunity to repent and be obedient to Jesus the Christ! Also, keep Ophra and others, that we might not even know about ,will repent before the world and God and they will receive Jesus as their Savior!

They should be exposed; the Bible says your sins will find you out. However, we must not only tell the truth about them, but we are, as Christians, to pray for their return to Christ! If we don’t pray for them, we are not doing as God tells us to do in his word. I think that we, as Christians, know to pray for them, but can get caught up in how sinful they have become and focus on that and not enough on praying for them.

When I’m in doubt about someone being wrong in their teachings, I go online and ask about their beliefs about abortion.. If they don’t take a stand against abortion (murdering of babies), I know they are not where they need to be spiritually. That’s the first thing I check out about a person running for any office. It’s amazing how many, so called Christians, including Pastors, have voted for President Obama and voted for President Clinton, knowing that they are pro-abortion instead of Pro-life. God have mercy on their souls!

God’s Blessings on You and Yours! Stay in the Word, everyone! Christ is returning sooner than we might think!

Rape is a horrible thing, but know that God can heal, no matter how difficult it might seem. To get your joy and peace that God wants for you, you must turn your life entirely over to him. I’m a man and cannot understand what you are going through, but I feel that rape is probably the most damaging thing that can happen to a woman’s emotions, etc.

However, bad, I encourage to not think it’s ok to abort that baby because of rape. There is no scripture to justify aborting the baby! Murder is murder, no matter how the baby is conceived. If you feel that you can’t keep the child, please, adopt the child to a couple that will raise the child properly in the eyes of God. Understand, that no matter how horrible is rape, God has a plan for that child! Phil. 1:6 “We can have confidence that God, who created a good work in us, will be faithful to complete it!” We just need to be obedient!

And if you now are suffering emotional trauma and guilt from having an abortion, please, know that you too, can have joy and peace, but only by the Grace of God. Just receive Jesus as your Savior and stay obedient to Him. You say, but that would be a miracle. God is still performing miracles, please, believe me. He wants soooooooooo much to heal you wounds, please, let Him!

I have total confidence that when we are obedient to God, He will turn every negative in our lives to positives. My wife was abused more than once when a child and now God is using her to minister to battered women. And he has a plan for you! Jesus states that His yoke is easy and His burden is light! Please, turn all over to our Savior Jesus the Christ!

I speak total joy and peace to you in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior! And that you receive all of His God’s Blessings!

Mic 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, [Is] not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

Suggest you include the ‘Gay agendas” in your checklist to a marker, in terms of Support/Complacency & Against, for the simple reason that there was none so greatly destroyed than “Sodom” even the complacent one -Lots wife- unto the present day to the Prophecy of “Spiritual Sodom & Egypt”.

You are correct Scott, he REF– USED to say Jesus was the only way. These two are doing all this for money. When you take you eye off GOD…it never goes well!! You know you are living in the last days when you see FALSE teachings!!

Joel and Oprah have brought more good to this world than anybody else today. Why fight against good? We are all part of God, therefore we are all a part of ” I AM” Get it? I know you mean well, but study what they really mean, you will be inspired. Send love only, not negativity.

How hard is it to just tell people that Jesus loves them and wants to take on himself the burden of their sin? It is as hard as changing lifestyle from being filthy rich to average or even poor all in the name of Jesus Christ.

I grew up in the Houston area, and used to listen sometimes to Osteen’s father before he died. If I’m not mistaken, the father preached the gospel we all know. Don’t know what happened to Joel. He took his fathers church in another direction!

anyone who makes false claims cponfuses and aids disorder. while people should be aware of fals eteacherrs if you present it wmixed witth false hood it only serves to confuse. the bible clearly says . Prov 18:21 KJV) “Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.” god in the begining called things into existance whenhe created the wolorld. when jeus came he has called us to do the same. if you say unto the moutnian be thou removed and doubt not in your heart it hslal be removed. the devil only copys god and has to work within the laws of the universe that are in existance.God with using moses as a medium wrote the pentuach the 5 books of moses penta as in 5 like penta gram. oftne in ocult they use 5 pooined star does this make the pentuach evil? no. the established laws of th universe by god have it that death and life are in the power of the ttongue [law of attraction] now you like moses or Jesus or the apostels can speak and cause a thing and beritesous if you do it in hs name and for his glory or you can use tthe law of attraction for greed lust yourselfand the devil death. death or life in the power of the tongue this includes all you say every act is a magickal act say those in occult god says what you speak happens by many bibnlical verse like proverbs 18;21 and others. so if you speak ourt negitiivty you wil get it if you were to listen to a sermon like tamming the tongue by pastor matthew hagge you might see a lot of similarities between it and ‘the secret’ the differnce is in pastor hagees sermon will be full of bible verse and biblical application but the method is the same cause the laws of the universe created by god are the same. get your facts stragiht caus eit will further your cause you have a lot of good info on this sight but wrong facts will trun those whom you wish tosave away. and daeth and life are oi the tongue jesus said ‘judge not lest ye be judged’ so be careful not to judge presentt facts and be clear andcross check them. Prov 4:21 KJV) “Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.” (Prov 6:2 KJV) “Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.” (Prov 12:18 KJV) “There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.” (Prov 15:4 KJV) “A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.” (Prov 17:20 KJV) “He that hath a froward heart findeth no good: and he that hath a perverse tongue falleth into mischief Authority is released through words: (Mark 11:23 KJV) “For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.” (Mark 11:24 KJV) “Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” (John 14:13 KJV) “And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.” (John 14:14 KJV) “If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” You receive what you believe…(Prov 6:2 KJV) “Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.” The tongue… oh how powerful

HI Todd, I read your comments and felt lead to respond to you. But my response turned out way too way long to post here in this comment section. So I had to copy your first comment to my blog and respond there. I spent about 5 hours writing and proof-reading my response, so would you please go to my site and read it. If not then please read the two articles below the first link below. If you would like to respond, please do so here or on my blog. Thanks brother!!!

PROVERBS 18:21 – Are There Really Life and Death In The Power Of Words? (dedicated to Kenneth Shoebrook)

this is Todd in reply, first forgive me for typing errors of my last or even this. I am a bit dyslexic and I type bad and when I am moved the passion often increases my spelling and typing errors. I first wish to say sorry about your friend, I must say though you misunderstand me and with bad typing that is easy. I do not defend Joel Osteen, I defend the bible. you believe the whole bible or you don’t, it is all true or it is not true at all god said and let there be light God created the world with words. this is a bible belief. and the apostles and the early church performed many miracles just by saying and believing there is a marked difference between this and mystics which should be pointed out. Gods word must abide in the believer and then he may ask what he wills. and yes god has made free will the words of the Israelites prevented them from entering the promised land if you are in unbelief this will override according to Gods word, there are a lot of people who don’t believe in the bible at all and many say what you say they don’t believe cause they don’t see christens moving mountains, well I say if you deny this you deny Gods word that is what God said and the early church did many miracles . People believe this only happened then and yet gods word clearly says this is for all believers

Mark chapter 16 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Acts chapter 2 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And going back to mark 16 verse 16 says And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Unbelief is a sin it is the sin that prevented Israel from entering the promised land John chapter 14 verse 12

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John Chapter 14 : 1 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:7 Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of John 15:7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

So what does all this mean it doesn’t mean you can ask what you will and be living contrary to God your friend doing drugs living contrary to God can not ask and it be granted. But to use this tragedy to put down Gods word is not good as well. You must believe god is the same yesterday today and tomorrow and that t is impossible for God to lie so if he promised this it must be so faith comes by hearing the word of GOD when the apostles could not cast out a demon Jesus in Matthew told them it was due to there unbelief his reply how be it this kind only goeth out by prayer and by fasting. Unbelief can stop the miracles of god read your bible, Jesus marveled at the unbelief in his home town and could not perform many miracles there due to there unbelief. I believe bible I’m not defending Joel Osteen I don’t watch him I get a bad feeling about him I am defending the bible don’t let Joel or your friends death make you an unbeliever in what God clearly promised Do you believe Moses performed miracles? Or how about Elijah ? Or the apostles ? Do you believe peters shadow healed people or is that just a metaphor? Do you believe Gods promise. Most christens don’t. many christens don’t believe creation they believe a hybrid of evolution and the bible they believe those miracles never really happened or only God did miracle Moses and the apostles didn’t even though it says they did. And it says greater things we shall do and it says this promise is for all believers‘. If anyone who does things like this believes it is by there power then they are false it is by the power of god and faith in the name Jesus that all things like this are done. What I was in my first response and this one trying to convey is the difference and tell you not to say that Gods word is not true. If he says the apostles did miracles and by faith they could accomplish anything I believe God did not lie I believe what the book of revelations says about the Witnesses and the miracles they will do. I believe what the 144000 witness will do I believe God when he says in the last days the out pouring of the holy spirit will be 2 times what the early church had just like Elisha was given a double portion of what the prophet Elijah had. There have been documented cases over the centuries of great faith and miracles and if you believe Gods word then you will believe these things yes there will be false prophets and charlatans but the only unpardonable sin is blaspheming the holy spirit . This would be to deny the power of the holy sprit as the Pharisees said the miracles Jesus did were of the devil p fake, this was not just for Jesus he promised the believer and clearly in acts peter and the 120 in the upper room and Paul demonstrated such gifts and the bible promised this to all. What is wrong is no one believes it unbelief can stop miracles. Unbelief stopped Israel they saw the 10 plagues the parting of the read sea manna from heaven water from a stone yet still did not believe the power of God. Jesus in his hometown could no do many miracles due to there unbelief, this is what all non believers say the bible is not true they don’t believe I miracles they want christens to be able to prove it with miracles just like the Pharisees wanted Jesus to prove it and most christens who attend church regular don’t believe these things are possible. The bible is all true or not true. It is impossible for God to lie and he promised the gifts of the holy spirit to all believers the problem is no one believes, all I am asking you is not to say the bible is untrue , I have seen that the supernatural world is true and I have seen healing occur. Is my faith strong enough to perform on moments notice ?[ does this to you prove I am wrong like all doubters and scoffers in the last days ? ] the apostles could not cast out the evil spirit due to unbelief and they walked with Jesus seeing his miracles and he breathed on them and gave them power over unclean spirits if they had trouble of course we in this last generation who believe sciences rather than Gods will, I choose to believe Gods words and ask you to do the same

Hi Todd! You might be interested in my reply to Bro. Damon about the “Life and Death are in the power of the tongue and those who love it will eat its fruit.” Replied on June 21, 2013 @ 1:04 A.M. and June 23, 2013 @ 6:02 P.M.

ps . to all those who commented in support of oprah . thelast days apostasy is written clearly in the bible and the bible saysActs 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved mixing of other Gods and relgions is clarly agsint what the bible teaches

Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. 2 Peter 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” 2 Chronicles 15:13 But that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. Deuteronomy 13:6-11 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. … 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, Luke 8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. Hebrews 6:4-8 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. Matthew 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. … Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 2 Timothy 4:4 And will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths

hey don’t you think this article is quite a stretch. i read the book “The Secret” and laws of attraction and no where in the book does it mention any witchcraft or new age thinking. This article was a waste of space and a attack on two other Christians that think or believe differently than you ” no matter if its right or wrong” in fact they are giving you pretty good advice. spend time in prayer and meditate on the words of God first thing in the morning, no tv, no blackberry, no phone . just some worship music and some good alone time. i wouldn’t have wated my time writing about what was wrong with this article but having known people that were into the occult and studying the word of God and listening to other people witchcraft and occultic practices are on a totally different level then the book “the secret”. why don’t you write about the real devils in the suits Mike Murdoch and Benny Hinn

The greatest feat the devil ever accomplished was convincing the world he doesn’t exist… If he were trying to deceive the world, he wouldn’t necessarily come right out and say it is witchcraft. Deception comes in many forms, often in pretty packages. Unfortunately, Oprah and Joel Osteen use those pretty packages to deceive the world into thinking that Christianity is this self-serving, feel good religion that is solely focused on benefiting us for our *earthly* good, not our spiritual or eternal good.

I’ve noticed when Joel was on the View and when he was interviewed on Oprah’s Next Chapter the question of homosexuality came up and he always dances around the question he never gave a clear answer. It’s like he says what people want to hear and as a pastor you can’t do that. I don’t know maybe it’s me but I always get skeptical of a pastor when they become commercially successful it’s like they lose sight of what they’re really suppose to do. Anyway, I always feel refreshed whenever I get on this site. It’s really helping me. Thank you!!

Just as the true “Arc of the Covenant” which is to the Mercy of God to its fulfillment in the Fulness of Christ Jesus which is to the salvation of man by the faith, . likewise is the Egyptian one, not to save but to corrupt & destroy. & is described in Zechariah Ch 5 to the wickedness in an Ephah to its work carried out by two women with the wings of a Stork, in uncleaness. This wickedness in the container is the rebellion, the sin of witchcraft.- the source of Oprah Winfrey beliefs is to this in the Sorcery & it seems Joel Osteen follows in her footsteps., to become birds of a same flock to that condemned Ancient Egyptian Mystery of wickedness

OK. Why do religions always bash each other? That’s what confuses most people who are not religious, and why a lot of people stay away from it. Come on, there can’t be so many different interpretations of the bible(different bible-based religions), and only one of them is right. So religious people need to stop hating each other just because they don’t share the same beliefs. Yes, there are many televangelists who take advantage of people for money, and I don’t particularly like Oprah and the method she has used to make her billions. But, I came across the Joel Osteen books at the library when I was struggling with some major depression, and they really did help me feel better and helped me pull myself back up. Of all the televangelists out there, he’s the only one I’ve seen on TV that DOESN’T ask for money on his show. The ones that do constantly ask for money(which is nearly all of the other ones) are the ones to worry about.

i think it should be noted here and very strongly emphasized that disagreement does not equate to personal hate or bashing. Let me ask you, because you disagree with us, does that mean you hate us and are bashing us because we do not believe as you do that “there can’t be so many different interpretations of the bible (different bible-based religions), and only one of them is right”? One can disagree with another and not hate them personally but rather hate opposing philosophies and beliefs and it has nothing to do with personal hate. If not then you’re just as much a hater as anyone else for disagreeing with us. I hope you can see this.

All of these so called ministers are nothing more than motivational speakers, as is satan, seducing people into feeling more about themselves than they should. Seeking so called self esteem.

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Lets us look to the Bible to find the answers! If it does not align with th Bible than it is wrong…

“Death and life are in the power of the tongue and those who love it will eat it fruits.” Proverbs 18:21

And Jesus said that to them “Have faith in God, truly I say to you whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ And if he does not doubt it in his heart but believes that what he said will come to pass it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you whatever you ask in prayer believe that you haved received it and it will be yours.” Matthew 11:22-24

“Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, “I believe and so I spoke,” we also believe and so we speak… ” 2 Corinthians 2:14

“Whatever you ask in prayer you will receive if you have faith.” Matthew 21:22

“So shall my word that comes out of my mouth, it shall not return to me empty but it shall accomplish that which I purpose and it shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:11

HI Missy, just like with any book if you take small parts of the Bible out of context you can make it say just about anything you want it to. So let us add the context back to the verses you and Word of Faith teachers like Joel Osteen take out of context.

***“Death and life are in the power of the tongue and those who love it will eat it fruits.” Proverbs 18:21

Pslams 18: 18 The lot causeth contentions to cease, and parteth between the mighty. 19 A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle. 20 A man’s belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled. 21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. 22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord. 23 The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly. 24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.

Please ask yourself what is the meaning of verse 21 according to the context?

***And Jesus said that to them “Have faith in God, truly I say to you whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ And if he does not doubt it in his heart but believes that what he said will come to pass it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you whatever you ask in prayer believe that you haved received it and it will be yours.” Matthew 11:22-24

Missy, you can test this passage to see if your interpreting and applying it rightly by looking at the previous verse Mar 11:21 “And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.” Please go find a fig tree and curse it and see if it withers. And also cast the nearest mountain into the sea. These verses are part of a prophecy, to see what the prophecy means please see the following post.

Some Commentary[ies] on Mark 11:23-24 (An Often Mis-Interpreted Verse By Word of Faithers)

***Sorry Missy, you must have quoted 2 Cor. 2:14 wrong as it says nothing close to what you quoted and even the verse you did quote talks only about believing and speaking and says nothing about receiving what is believed and spoken.

***“Whatever you ask in prayer you will receive if you have faith.” Matthew 21:22

Let me ask you Missy, how do you balance that with (1 John 5:14-15 KJV) “And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing ***according to his will***, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him”. Please note vs. 14 says ACCORDING HIS WILL. How do you balance that so these scriptures do not contradict each other? Do we get “whatsoever we ask” or whatsoever we ask “according to his will”?

***“So shall my word that comes out of my mouth, it shall not return to me empty but it shall accomplish that which I purpose and it shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:11

Missy, when this verse says “So shall **my** word” and “that which **I** purpose”,, who is the “my” and the “I” spoken of in this verse? If you will look at the context of this verse it is the Lord himself talking. The “my” and “I’ is not you or anyone else, it is the Lord Himself.

Dear Damon and B&E, I very much appreciate your sincerity and taking the time and effort to share your beliefs to help others. That is very commendable and a worthy avocation. I would assert that it is just as much a false teaching and not Biblical to accuse someone of being a false teacher simply based on logic and scripture. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this discussion? The female ‘poster’ who thinks all the religions are ok has a more kind and reasonable manner than the saved people posting. I say that bc I sense a mixture of spirit behind the replies. Yes, the Holy Spirit endorses Jesus and His Word as the only true way, but He also decries a spirit of division and back biting and denying His awesome power in and through believers. I have prayed that the rain would go back up into the clouds (at my saved 5 yr. old sons suggestion bc our roof hadn’t been repaired yet) and it not only stopped raining, but the news that night said that we had a brief period of fine hail in an isolated section of town! Wow! God really did move by my faith filled words. I didn’t even think about what happens to rain when it goes back up. It freezes! We were on our way inside from grocery shopping and the key was not working as we were trying to get in and it was starting to rain. My son said, “Mommy ask Jesus to send an angel to help it get unstuck.” So I did and I prayed it would unstick; I spoke to it and told it to work smoothly. The key that wouldn’t even get into the rusted lock after multiple attempts, slipped in as if greased and opened immediately. These testimonies matter! It is how we overcome bc it is the truth. The Spirit matters. That man saying what he felt in his gut is very pertinent. The other man saying that Joel’s books helped him overcome depression matters! Me saying that I have had many occasions of supernatural ministry by Joel’s ministry matters! This is not the only way to perceive and judge spiritual things, but it is a factor. To completely leave out any eyewitness testimony is foolhardy, un Biblical, and unscientific. It is a sin before God to accuse Joel of any wrongdoing when it can’t be proven. Wrong things have been said about him in this article. He did not charge differing fees for that event. That needs to be corrected and an apology needs to be made. It is not ok to touch God’s anointed! Unless the HOLY SPIRIT is specifically telling you to denounce a preacher you are on very dangerous ground. You can quote scripture all you want. It is the Word of God enlivened by His Holy Spirit that is truth. The devil quotes scripture. It seems more like a spirit of division at work to discredit a variety of ministries; Joel’s, Damon’s, B&E’s…It is an awesome responsibility to set oneself up as an authority on God, in God’s eyes. This site is a tremendous and good tool for the kingdom of God. Is it perfect? No. Should it claim to be perfect? No. How about get things like basic scriptures accurate? Your post on The Beginning has a simple misquote over the pic with the article. My KJ3 supposedly literal translation says, “In beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” That would be no article ‘the’ and add the ‘s’ to heavens please. How about spend your critical thinking fine tuning your own ways and words and speak out only as truly led by the Holy Spirit. Am I nit picking? Yes, absolutely! We are to be as accurate as we possibly can. Why is it ok to be careless with scripture? It shows the possibility of carelessness in other endeavors; perhaps accusing true ministers of the gospel wrongly? This is very serious. One reason is that it makes un saved people not take what you have to say seriously. One little fly in the ointment and the whole thing stinks. The world will know us by our love for one another. We are to live in peace with one another as much as possible. We are to show brotherly love and correct elders as we would our own father and younger men as brothers; in all meekness. I know that I am not perfect, but seeking to be filled with Jesus by His Spirit and Word more and more. Where He shines through is perfect. This article promo looks like the same sensationalism that the world uses to promote it’s articles. If Joel was to be caught in sexual sin with eyewitnesses and hard evidences (like Billy Graham has…) then, by all means, shout it from the roof tops! If, however, we disagree with their doctrine or misunderstand what they are teaching or intending, we need to open lines of communication and work it out in a Godly manner. We will see eye to eye bc there is only one Truth. That Truth includes a right Spirit. I discern division at work. Anyone else?

Thanks for your response. With all due respect, I completely disagree with much of what you wrote. You make a number of points, so I will try to deal with them the best that I can. I will just quote certain parts and respond.

You said:

“I would assert that it is just as much a false teaching and not Biblical to accuse someone of being a false teacher simply based on logic and scripture. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this discussion? The female ‘poster’ who thinks all the religions are ok has a more kind and reasonable manner than the saved people posting. I say that bc I sense a mixture of spirit behind the replies. Yes, the Holy Spirit endorses Jesus and His Word as the only true way, but He also decries a spirit of division and back biting and denying His awesome power in and through believers. “

I would like to first respond by quoting the Lord Jesus Christ:

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.Matthew 10:32-37

Notice the tone of the Words of The Lord? He said He wants to set a son against a father and a daughter against a mother. These words are extremely divisive. Why? Because the Gospel is divisive. Jesus proclaimed Himself the exclusive way to salvation. All other roads, lead to hell and the Lake of Fire. This is not an easy message for people to hear. It’s a turn off and scary to many, hence so much of the hostility towards Christianity. You claimed, with no Scripture, that the Holy Spirit decries the very division Jesus said He came to Earth to bring. How do you possible reconcile your claims with what Jesus clearly said?

I would like to quote Jesus again:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many..Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. – Matthew 24:3-5, 23-25.

When Jesus says “take heed” we are being commanded to pay special attention and carry out specifically what He is saying. And The Lord was clear – MANY people will come in the name of Christ, claiming annointing, prophecy etc., and they are complete deceivers. And notice that Jesus said they will even perform signs and wonders. So proclaiming Christ and even performing wonders is NOT the proof that someone is truly of God. Then how can we know? The Bible of course tells us: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (1 John 4:1).

We are commanded to test the spirits of those who present themselves as preachers or prophets. And how do we do this? With The Word of God. We are supposed to search the Scriptures to see if what a preacher says is in accordance with the Bible. Yet you said: “I would assert that it is just as much a false teaching and not Biblical to accuse someone of being a false teacher simply based on logic and scripture..” What??? What are you basing that on? Using Scripture is the ONLY way to determine who is a false teacher. The Bereans were called “more noble” because they double checked the Scriptures. And that was after hearing the Apostle Paul preaching – an author of 13 books of the Bible. Certainly, we should be checking up on Joel Osteen, no?

Rosa says that all roads lead to Heaven. While that may seem “kind” and “loving”, I would submit that it’s unkind and unloving. If you know that the dinner someone is about to eat is poisonous and they have no idea, but you let them eat it because they will really enjoy it, is that being kind? Are you being loving because you let them enjoy their favorite meal before dying suddenly? No. Not at all. It is unkind and foolish. If we know the truth, we should share it. If someone chooses to believe something else, that is their right and prerogative, but it does not remove a Bible-believing Christian’s responsibility to preach the Gospel to all nations (again quoting Jesus Christ).

You said:

“I have prayed that the rain would go back up into the clouds (at my saved 5 yr. old sons suggestion bc our roof hadn’t been repaired yet) and it not only stopped raining, but the news that night said that we had a brief period of fine hail in an isolated section of town! Wow! God really did move by my faith filled words. I didn’t even think about what happens to rain when it goes back up. It freezes! We were on our way inside from grocery shopping and the key was not working as we were trying to get in and it was starting to rain. My son said, “Mommy ask Jesus to send an angel to help it get unstuck.” So I did and I prayed it would unstick; I spoke to it and told it to work smoothly. The key that wouldn’t even get into the rusted lock after multiple attempts, slipped in as if greased and opened immediately. These testimonies matter! It is how we overcome bc it is the truth.”

I do not doubt your stories at all. God answers prayer! All prayers. Sometimes precisely how we asked them, sometimes not in the way we imagined at all.

You said:

“The Spirit matters. That man saying what he felt in his gut is very pertinent. The other man saying that Joel’s books helped him overcome depression matters! Me saying that I have had many occasions of supernatural ministry by Joel’s ministry matters! This is not the only way to perceive and judge spiritual things, but it is a factor. To completely leave out any eyewitness testimony is foolhardy, un Biblical, and unscientific. It is a sin before God to accuse Joel of any wrongdoing when it can’t be proven. Wrong things have been said about him in this article. He did not charge differing fees for that event. That needs to be corrected and an apology needs to be made. It is not ok to touch God’s anointed! Unless the HOLY SPIRIT is specifically telling you to denounce a preacher you are on very dangerous ground. You can quote scripture all you want. It is the Word of God enlivened by His Holy Spirit that is truth. The devil quotes scripture. It seems more like a spirit of division at work to discredit a variety of ministries;”

While personal testimonies are good, they do not validate Joel’s ministry. Neither do supernatural events. The Lord already told us false christs and deceivers can perform miracles. Revelation tells us the Antichrist will perform miracles. That is not the “proof” of a Godly ministry. It’s whether or not they accurately preach the Bible. That is the standard. Everything you have said above perfectly illustrates the divide in the church today. Millions of professing Christians have abandoned trusting the Bible and upholding it as the standard in favor of their personal experience or what their heart or gut tells them. This is not Biblical. The Bible says the heart is “deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?” We are not “trust our heart” on evaluating a sermon. We are to compare it with the Bible. Osteen does not even make an attempt to rightly divide Scripture. His advice is New Age and occultic. He is teaching the Law of Attraction, which is witchcraft. I notice that you do not even attempt to analyze what Joel is saying against the numerous quotes (with links). You have also not referenced the Scriptures in the article that refute Joel repeatedly. Do you not see the danger in this? Once we abandon the Bible, we are making up our own religion based on what is “right in our eyes” and not that of God. I encourage you to seriously consider this. This problem is plaguing thousands of churches all over the world. Pastors, like Osteen are not teaching the Bible, and instead just appealing to whatever interests people. This may make you feel good, but it will not save your soul.

And on top of this all, you then compare me to the Devil, for “quoting Scripture” (and by the way, Satan misquoted Scripture out of context). I am stunned by what a low regard you have for the Bible. The Lord says that He puts His Word above His Name.

And thanks for the correction on the typo! It is much appreciated.

And as far as Joel being caught in sin and exposing him, etc., that is definitely not the goal of this ministry. Our critiques of pastors are not about their personal sin. It is about their handling or rather mishandling of God’s Holy Bible. It’s about their false doctrines. We are all sinners. That is not a surprise or a news flash. But the false doctrines that have swept in and infiltrated the church today are precisely what the Bible commands us to discern and expose.

So if you sense division, you are spot on. That is precisely what The Lord Jesus Christ intended. I just hope and pray you choose the side that puts their trust in His Word and not our thoughts, heart and ideas.

Hi Damon, Well, I am learning about this type of communicating and it seems too many points at one time is not very effective. So, just to reply to one point at a time, I would point out that Jesus never said He wanted to bring division. That is Bible. He said He came to bring division between light and dark, goats and sheep, life and death… His being here on earth was Light to expose the darkness. That is a very different thing than causing division among believers; which He detests. I spoke very specifically and with Bible in my heart and it comes out. I don’t quote verse bc you already know it and if you haven’t gotten it from reading it you aren’t going to “get it” from me in that form. I did not say one thing un true. Just saying that He wants to divide shows a wrong heart motive. His heart is for none to perish. He never wants even one person to go to hell. His heart, His Spirit is for peace. That is why He died. He is a peacemaker. Because I focus on what you are neglecting, the Spirit, does not mean I reject His Word! The Pharisees had His Word in high esteem, but they completely missed His heart. Love in Christ, Pinky (love it)

Dear B&E, So, I mistook your post as from Damon. I apologize for that, but I am very surprised and saddened to realize it was your post. I so enjoyed the thread about the giants and I didn’t see any error in your preaching/teaching. I am actually scared to continue to write on this thread precisely bc the Bible says not to even greet those who are false teachers and you’ve got some crazy stuff being written on this thread! I adore the Word of God. I hold it in the highest esteem. I have written, and I can’t find the comment here anymore, that I saw all your evidences and thought they were very flimsy. Joel preaches the Bible. I have seen him preach and I compare it to the Word. Y’all didn’t like that he didn’t say Jesus when he was on Oprah and that he wouldn’t be goaded into saying someone was going to hell on Larry King live. Then you posted a lot of info from witch weblogs that show what they believe. Yes, witches use witchcraft. Yes, Oprah is not saved and teaches witchcraft, also. Joel does not teach witchcraft. Joel did not charge differing prices for the seats at his event. That was done by another entity. You have publicly charged him with that and not corrected your statement. I don’t think it is a good idea to send many requests for donations, but that is a common business model that many businesses and ministries use and is not, in itself, unBiblical. You haven’t given me a single quote where Joel is not in agreement with the Bible. He isn’t my favorite preacher. So, I am not showing him any partiality. I only saw him several times when the Lord led me to and it was beneficial to me. I am concerned bc people on this thread and the article itself charge him with being apostate and that is very serious! Where is his false doctrine? He preaches the Word. He lives a Godly life. Perhaps, his ministry asks for donations too much, but that is a matter between him and God. The scriptures he preaches are accurate. I did not compare you to the devil. That was your own idea. I said that the devil quotes scripture bc it shows that it isn’t by the Word alone that you can tell if someone is Godly. Yes, study the scriptures. Yes, compare and debate with Christians, but if the spirit behind the quoting is not Holy, whether the words are twisted or not, it is evil. By the fruit you will know true Christians. The Bible can be made into an idol. God is Father, Son, and Spirit. You can’t have one without the other. My entire argument is where is his false doctrine? I am a child of God. The Bible tells me to say that. Of course, if you think you can say whatever you want and God has to do it, you are immature at best and apostate at worst, but Joel doesn’t say that. Of course, the lady who likes all the positive approaches to life is mistaken. There is only one Way to God. I said that she had a kinder manner and was reasonable. A lot of posters on here are rude, argumentative, (Head exploding from hypocrisy? Really? That’s Godly… not) and that isn’t of the Holy Spirit. Some other guy is saying all kinds of wild, weird sounding religious things. If you want to call out an apostate preacher, why not start with him? Of course, I know that sounding nice isn’t always truth. I do know that. I assumed that most posters on here are mature. Really, you have to explain that being nice isn’t necessarily accurate? Uh, any saved person knows that. We have to face our sin to get saved and we find it is the greatest blessing and kindness. I made very valid points. Y’all aren’t making plain common sense. Just bc his preaching is focused on the positive parts of scripture doesn’t make him false. There are people who study giants and they have intellectual spirits and are going to hell. I did not confuse you with any of them. I am saying to be fair and just. Joel doesn’t preach false doctrines. I do believe the Bible and I have a fear of the Lord to not touch His anointed so lightly. I doubt I will revisit this thread. I hope and pray all those who are confused and mislead find Christ for real. pinkhouse

Echoes of “Oneness Pentecostalism” to the likes of TD Jakes is heard – The fundamental error mistaking Hinduism for Christianity is as believing the Pseudo for Christ, even to the words of our Lord “Get thee behind me satan” to the parallelisms.

To the likes of Joel’s, in their ear pleasing words to itching ears, compromising & even unrelating to the Gospels unlike that which was preached by Jesus & the Apostles come through what is called the Apostolic Faith, against which is seen the new star made by the the god TV promoters Rory & Wendy ,controlled by Freemasonry, British indeed, is -Todd Bentley, deceiving through hindu Kundalani’s in the occult, in Christ & Christian names to the lying signs & wonders, & what better place than South Africa using the strong Indian contingent there as a launching pad to main land India, off course that is where the money lies brought through this corruption, It is but to know that Freemasonry itself is come as the Manifestation of the enmity put by God at Eden between the serpent & the Woman, controlled through Witchcraft having similar initiations that are to Ancient Egyptian beliefs, to death with the more interesting part to its gods are but the hindu ones( to that Munbo Jumbo names or as called in Freemasonry the infallible names, to the great Architect etc. are but to the same ) to know why the god TV’s & the todd Bentely’s are to the Indian pleasings with much of Joel Osteen, Joseph Prince, Creflo Dollar(with his wife dressed as an Indian princess more to demonesses described by Ancient Christiain saints) & off course the Parsons & their friends Copeland, Cindy Jacobs with her social gospels & the TBN people in it, not to forget.

Oprah has profited, as Olsteen does. Where is the “good” if they mislead, while, growing wealthier? I’m not denouncing those who have wealth, but many times, that influence is used in less than productive ways. Oprah has the means to reach many people. Yes, she gives a great deal of money to her choice in charities, but she also uses her influence, politically – ref: Propping Obama for president without, truly, looking at what he stands for. She has found disappointment in putting Obama up as a godlike leader, instead of, a servant to all US citizens.

Joel Olsteen is sparkling, but if he can’t invoke Jesus’ name on a silly tv interview when he has millions watching, then, may God bless him with a change in his approach.

I fought God for many years and now, find that only He can fill me with real peace. I believe Jesus is the way to His eternal embrace; and I pray others who need to humble, as I surely did, do so. God only wrote one Book and it’s free to read from many venues. He is always here to listen.

I don’t see any problem with people seeking to bring positivity to their lives, these are troubling times and many people need something to believe in, some way to cope with the situation not only in their home countries but worldwide. I can see why people are upset about these people, especially a pastor, speaking about things that can be contrary to the Bible. And I agree, in a sense, that a pastor’s duty is to preach the gospel and to lead people to the bible and to Jesus. But there is certainly no harm i can see in giving people confidence, motivation for a positive change and something that they can use to help them in these turbulent times.

I don’t call myself a Christian, to be honest, i don”t know what to think of the whole religion thing. I don’t see any harm in being…. cautious of where people put their faith and their hearts. I like the idea of God and Jesus, I like what they stand for, peace, kindness, just leadership, mercy, and compassion. But I don’t think i have seen enough definitive evidence for me to place too much of my hope and faith, and my heart into Christianity. I also seek something to help me deal with these tough times and I know many others around the world do as well. Maybe someone here can help me find the answers i seek and help me to share that with the people who are struggling to find peace and a happy life.

Thank you for a more clear explanation. You obviously have great faith! I’ve been answering Bro. Damon’s comments too. Maybe this will make it more clear for others to understand where you and I are coming from in our statements.

Jesus left earth and sent Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4 which brought them the power to work with as He chose to work with them. We can receive that same power in which Holy Spirit can work through us.

Again, in Mark 11:22-24 Jesus talks about us being able to move mountains. I agree with Bro. Damon in the sense that most of the time that mountain is obstacles in our lives. However, we can’t just say that it cannot be a literal mountain. Do we not believe the creator that created the earth and created us is to weak to move a mountain. God doesn’t function in this manner, most of the time, because He chooses to perform through us. For example: The story goes that a man had great faith and wanted a mountain that he owned moved. So, he prays for God to move the mountain. To me that would mean that he was declaring for the mountain to be moved in the name of Jesus. God could have moved the mountain by picking it up and relocating it. I pray that we believe that; if not how can we believe that He created the earth, etc? However, God choosing to work through man to answer our prayers, a lot of times, sent a contractor who needed much dirt. He removed the mountain. Remember, when we say we prayed for something, even if we don’t say: “I declare it done in the name of Jesus, when we end praying we say in the name of Jesus, Amen. What is the definition of Amen. It is “So be it!” In other words we are declaring our prayer to be performed and completed in the name of Jesus!

Now, why are not all prayers (declarations) not answered or at least not right at the time we speak them. 1 John 5:14 tells us (paraphrasing) we can have anything we as if IT IS GOD’S WILL! However, we aren’t told to stop speaking what we want!

Example: I know a couple that stated they didn’t believe in buying a house by credit. So, they agreed to wait until God brought them the money to pay cash. They drew the home out on paper and started speaking a loud that home into existence. These folks had much faith! They spoke that home into existence for seven years! After seven years they were driving one day and saw a home that looked just like what they had been declaring they wanted for seven years. It was “for lease.” They went into the home and it was exactly as they had planned it seven years earlier. They agreed that this was the home God had planned for them. One problem; no money to buy it. The home is here, where is the money God? You see, God was even checking their faith further! They, in faith, leased the home for one year and took the money they had saved to remodel the home. Prior to the end of the year, when the lease would be up, God brought them the money to buy the home with cash; paid in full!

What is really interesting, to me, about this story, is that the home was built seven years earlier when this couple agreed to start declaring the home was there’s and paid for! If they had given up and stopped speaking the home was theirs in six years eleven months or at any time, I don’t believe they would have gotten their home.

I pray this is a help to all readers!

God’s Blessings on You and Yours! Have a great life in Jesus! Hang in there, we’ll probably all be together for eternity sooner than we might think!

Through Jesus we can make it, no matter what we go through, our lives lies in God’s hands. Casting your cares upon him, for he cares for us……not casting our cares upon ourselves, claming we can just use positive words and forget incorporating or going through Jesus is wrong. Jesus should forever be acknowledged. God bless you all

The article makes some interesting and valid points. However, one must always be mindful that the Bible cannot always be taken literally. Much of it is symbolic, allegorical, metaphorical, etc. Also, via repeated translations, errors and deliberate alterations have been instigated. A careful reading of the Scriptures will reveal that humans are Gods in embryo. This life is a time of preparation to meet God and eventually become like Him. The power to positive change lies with God’s help and within us. It is not an either/or dilemma. Two forces are at work. I make it a conscious effort to choose the good that I hear or see and discard what conflicts with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the end, the Gospel of Christ is the standard by which we base our actions.

Man by himself is but dust which truth he found when he obeyed the serpent to its words (Ye be as god’s) disobeying God, for the truth of him is In Christ, to the life , to the words most simple “Before the foundations God chose each one in His Christ”.

I know how Olsteen obtains prosperity, it was scamming my elderly mother for over $40K in little over a year with almost daily mailings for donations and several calls a week for donation requests. In his ministry they would talk with her, pray with her and then hit her up to send another check for the ministry. Charity should have been at home at the local church and her family and not to this scam artist.

It’s funny how scripture after scripture after scripture is being quoted here. Seems everyone is flexing their bible knowledge muscles….For me personally, I could careless about scriptures being quoted…does your knowledge of the scriptures make you a better person….not more righteous than anyone else, but a better human being? There’s a reason why Jesus said to the Sadducees and Pharisees, “…You understand the letter of the law, but not the spirit of it.” The purpose of the bible is to teach us to be better humans, not better than anyone else.

The Secret = witchcraft!?!?!? Seriously? You’ve got to be kidding me….This is why archaic ideas and perceptions never stick around long…In Columbus’ day they thought the earth was flat and was propped up on the back of a turtle. Opinions are a dime a dozen, not worth much…if what Oprah and Joel are doing is wrong it will be dealt with by GOD….not a human. I think God is powerful enough to straighten out anything that doesn’t serve his purpose. Does he really need you guys throwing around your ideas, perceptions, and dispersions? Let it go people….it’s like my Dad used to say, ‘When you point a finger at someone, remember there are three pointing back at you!’

Hi ShirleyN, It’s funny how your head does not explode from hypocrisy. After you pointing a finger at others for pointing fingers at Oprah and Joel’s false and dangerous new age teaching, one would think you would fall over dead if the penalty for hypocrisy (not practicing what you preach) was instant death. You’re like those that say others should not judge others, all the while judging others for judging while they had to make a judgment to decide if judging has occurred.

And then for you to deride others for their knowledge of scripture is laughable because scripture often tells us to study the scripture and to have knowledge of it because without knowledge of scripture we become easy prey for Satan who seeks to devour whomever he may. And you conflate the Pharisee’s misuse of the law with others use of scripture. There is no Letter and Spirit of the scripture.

Every NT book except for Philemon contains warning of false teaching, teachers and prophets. And some even say that in the end times some will teach doctrines of demons. Scripture also tells us that one day God will send a strong delusion on the world, that they might believe a lie because the world loves not the truth. So for you to act like if Joel and Oprah are wrong God would stop them is really sad because you cannot see that if those here speaking against Joel and Oprah’s teaching are wrong wouldn’t God stop them to.

B&E has shown you with references from both sources that what Joel is teaching is the same thing that The Secret teaches but dressed up in Christian terminology. If you want to debate whether that is witchcraft or not we can do that and I can bring references from witchcraft resources to show you that it is the same thing.

You said “The purpose of the bible is to teach us to be better humans, not better than anyone else”.,, and that is not funny at all. Is that what you really think the bible is about? Well it’s not. The purpose of the bible is to show how God is reconciling the world to himself through his crucified and risen Son and to point people to Him as savior of the world to those who will believe in Him. Have you realized you’re a sinner lost in sin and destined to eternal separation from God if you do not take Jesus as savior? In other words the main purpose of Gods word is that sinners might be saved from the penalty of their sin which is eternal death.

And that is the biggest beef that most of us have with Joel’s word of faith teaching. According to it God and the Bible’s purpose is not to make us better people or to point us to our need for a savior but it is to acquire more stuff by thinking and speaking positively all the while telling people what they want to hear. Does Joel and Oprah tell you what your itching ears want to hear? If so maybe you should consider again what the purpose of God and His word is.

Same reason why other people in the Bible quote verses… to reason out. Didnt the Bible said that His words can become an armor to us and a double-edge sword? Didnt Jesus quoted scriptures when He was tempted after the 40 days in the wilderness. You cannot just discredit people quoting the verses.

@Shirley, when you said “if what Oprah and Joel are doing is wrong it will be dealt with by GOD….not a human.” that made me think and ask “are you really a christian?” i am not judging anyone but what you just said is like you have a dead faith. Are you not concern about those children of God might still go astray? yes God is able, but if you think that that word “able” means He can do and will do everything then i suggest you better read the book of James again. having a genuine faith is a must as James mentioned that faith without deeds is a dead faith, a fake faith, leaving everything under the sun since God can do it.

And now regarding your basis of how things works “according to your dad” (‘When you point a finger at someone, remember there are three pointing back at you!’), let me quote a verse for you,

“The Lord says: “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.” ~ Isaiah 29:13.

I am not judging you or anyone else but it seems to me this verse is just right for you: 1. Your heart is not concerned about the children of God might go astray. 2. You do not use the word of God as your armor and sword, leaving everything in God’s hand 3. You prefer the word of your earthly father or things taught by men.

I am aware that there are different people with different intentions of using the word of God or reasoning out. There are people who use it out of envy and others are out of goodwill, Philippians 1:15. Are we not supposed to reach out those people who are being pulled down?

why do i feel awkward when he said about saying “I AM”. it feels like i am making myself a God of my own. same as God did, “God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.'”~ Exodus 3:14. It gives me chills whenever I am thinking was he said about saying “I AM” and it somehow relates to Isaiah 14:14 “I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” May the Lord, the God of the Universe have mercy on me and save me and cover me from all these.

Sorry so long to get back to you. Somehow I missed your response above.

You have done allot to obfuscate the issue and make it complicated when it is not. Your anecdotal responses really mean nothing because I can show you testimony after testimony that the WoF power of words teaching does not work for people. But you still have not shown how you can validate your interpretation of proverbs 18:21 from the context of the whole of proverbs 18. I guess since you have not done that we can rest assured that you cannot. Please show us how you validate your and the WoF interpretation from proberbs 18 without all the extrapolation, obfuscation and anecdotes.

I just tried to give you scripture to back up Proverb 18:21. I don’t understand why you feel it does not apply to people. What do you think this verse is speaking about when it is talking about the tongue? I gave scripture explaining that speaking positive brings positive results and speaking negative brings about negative results. Also, how do you explain Mark 11:21-22 and 1 John 5:14 and the scriptures where Jesus says to ask (Greek: to demand or require) and we shall have what we want.

Damon, I have seen things come to pass because of what is spoken. How many people have been given $10,000 or any amount for that matter? It was prophesied by a young man that didn’t even know me or my wife, that we would receive $10,000. In a short time we received it from a woman that wasn’t even in our church, but was acquainted with us. Did I not tell in my writing about a married couple that spoke for their home for seven years and God gave it to them, exactly how they described it?

Sorry if you thought my writing confusing. I tried to give what God brought to me to give to you and others! That is always my goal when writing or teaching.

I know you tried to validate Proverbs 18:21 by extrapolating other Scriptures that you think teach the same thing you think Verse 21 does. But I did not ask for other scriptures to verify the WoF interpretation and application of the verse – I asked 3-4 times now for you to validate that interpretation from the context of the whole of Proverbs 18 and you still have not done so. And the reason for that is that the context does not demand a literal interpretation but rather demands a metaphorical non-literal interpretation. I’ll tell you specifically what I think that means later as I did in my blogpost to Todd and my first comment to you but now that I have addressed the obfuscation by extrapolation let me address your use of anecdotal evidence.

In case you don’t know, and for the readers who might not, by anecdotal evidence I mean it as defined by Webster’s Dictionary (based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers). Anecdotal evidence (that you say the WoF confession teaches works, others says it works – That I say it does not and others say it does not) is purely subjective, not objective, and is mere opinion and conjecture. Something cannot be proven to be true or false just because someone says it is true or false. Rather objective truth can be found (in the case of interpreting scripture) by observing to see what the context of that verse or passage demand for the interpretation.

And furthermore that scripture says people have been raised from the dead it does not indicate that it was because of people words, declarations or confession but that it was Gods will – and scripture shows that people raising from the dead is not normative. While scripture does show that several where raised from the dead it also shows a plethora of people who died who were not raised from the dead. And that Smith Wigglesworth says he raised 13 from the dead and his wife 3 times (anecdotal evidence) this also shows that it is not normative for even a famous charismatic teacher such as him – only 13?. And again IF those people where raised from the dead it was not Smith’s confession and words that done it but rather Gods will and His power. And Wigglesworth career predates the genesis of the WoF confession teaching that was brought into Christianity by EW Kenyon and Kenneth Hagin less that 80 years ago.

Now what do I think the context of proverbs 18 demands the interpretation of verse 21 to be? Well let us read the chapter again.

Pro 18:1 Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom. Pro 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself. Pro 18:3 When the wicked cometh, then cometh also contempt, and with ignominy reproach. Pro 18:4 The words of a man’s mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Pro 18:5 It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment. Pro 18:6 A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes. Pro 18:7 A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul. Pro 18:8 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly. Pro 18:9 He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster. Pro 18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe. Pro 18:11 The rich man’s wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit. Pro 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility. Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. Pro 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear? Pro 18:15 The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge. Pro 18:16 A man’s gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men. Pro 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him. Pro 18:18 The lot causeth contentions to cease, and parteth between the mighty. Pro 18:19 A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle. Pro 18:20 A man’s belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled. Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. Pro 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD. Pro 18:23 The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly. Pro 18:24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.

Upon reading the chapter on one pass I can observe,,, (in hermeneutics [science of interpretation] observation is as important to interpretation as interpretation is to application),,, 19 things that that can be seen to show verse 21 must be interpreted to be non-literal metaphorical language in the form of hyperbole. So as explained before there are two ways to interpret verse 21 – the orthodox non-literal interpretation that words are influential and can be used to hurt or harm people and to tear them down or to help and build people up, and the literal Word of Faith interpretation that words have creative power and what we speak comes to pass and there is literal life and death in the tongue. Time and space forbid me from listing those 19 observations but the use of “contention” 3 times is one of those observations. See if you can spot the rest and then show us any observation from the chapter that you think demand a literal interpretation of verse 21.

Then you bring up Mark 11:21-22 and 1 John 5:14. The first thing that should be observed is that neither of the verses says anything about confessions, declarations, the power of words or that what we speak will come to pass. Rather it says **whatever we ask**. Asking is not demanding something according to some spiritual law but rather to plead in supplication. Secondly when the passages where spoken and the term you is used, “You” is not Dr. Gary or Damon but rather those who Jesus was speaking directly to – His disciples. So the promise is not to me and you but to them. And most importantly Mark 11:22-24 should be interpreted in light of 1Jn 5:14 “And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing ***according to his will***, he heareth us.” Ourselves, and even the apostles, only get/got what they/we ask that is according to Gods will – not what we confess and declare according to our will and faith. One last thing is that if your gonna apply a literal translation to proverbs 18:21 then it seems right to also give a literal interpretation to Mark 11:22. But we are never gonna see anyone literally cast a mountain into the sea.

So can you now tell us what observations you see from proverbs 18 that indicate that verse 21 should be interpreted literally? Or will you admit that you cannot validate a literal interpretation on verse 21 from the whole of proverbs 18? THANKS

Before Iam a sinner but when I receive Christ and walk with Him Iam now a saint! I make some mistakes but that doesnt change my position in Christ Jesus. because God is in the process of perfecting my inner man through His Perfect Son Jesus.

Asked 5 times now to substantiate a literal interpretation of verse 21 from the whole context of Proverbs 18, Dr. Gary has not done so. He’s done allot but he has not done what was asked of him and his position since he first entered this post. The reason is that the context of verse 21 demands a non-literal interpretation. I’ll look into, and the Lord willing, I’ll make a post showing my observations as to why the verse cannot be interpreted literally.

Damon.I would caution you against making assumptions and then proceeding to rebuke based on those assumptions.I never said I did not sin-you assumed that.What I said is that I do not count my self a sinner,I do not buy into the lie that “I am a sinner saved by grace”.I was a sinner and now I am saved by grace.If I stumble-sin-every now and then I will go to God and ask His forgiveness but I will not cheapen the work of Christ by continuing to wear the badge of sinner after he has forgiven me and called me out of sin.Continuing to classify ourselves as sinners is accepting defeat and having that frame of mind serves only to make sin an acceptable and constant occurrance.The Bible tells us to pursue the excellence which is in Christ.Jesus himself in Mat 5:48 said “Be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect” but many instead say “I cant be perfect Lord,sorry but I am a sinner”.Nowhere in the scripture does it tell christians to consider themselves sinners,on the contrary we are warned against sinning and instructed to live sinless lives.Please consider the following:Romans ch 6 Reckon yourselves dead to sin/Let not sin reign in your body/Whom you yield yourselves to obey that is whom you serve,either sin leading to death,or obedience unto righteousness/1st Jn 3 “He that sins is of the devil/He that abides in Him does not sin/He that commits sin is of the devil/Psalm 1 blessed is the mann…who stands not with sinners/Isaiah 59:2 Your sins have separated you from your God/.. Christ words “Mat 6:24 no one can serve two masters…In these scriptures and many more I find no provision at all for continuing to consider ourselves sinners if we are truly children of God through Christ Jesus,it is simply counterintuitive..damon: Hi Dane, I don’t think the question should be,,,,, is Andrea counting herself among sinners is not the right question to be asking. It seems your counting yourself among the sinless. Is that true? Are you saying your not a sinner? Please name others, besides Christ Himself, that are on the sinless list like you?

And then because Joyce Meyers, Jesse Duplantis and other Word of Faith teachers have claimed to be sinless (a claim they both made and backed out of later after scrutiny) – we can talk about complete sanctification and sinless perfection and if it is even possible for Christians to become sinless. Charles Finny said he knew one man that might have been fully sanctified – how many have you meet?

Dr. Gary: In response to Dane.Hi everyone!I disagree with you that Christians don’t sin.When the Word states we don’t sin it is meaning that we don’t practice sin.There is total difference between committing a sin and staying in that sin and making a practice of it.When we do fall short and sin we need to repent of that sin (in the name of Jesus) and go forward cleansed of our sin again.It is true that God sees each of us, that have accepted Jesus as our Savior, as perfect through the blood of Jesus Christ His Son!

1 John Chapter one and first two verses of Chapter two helps us to understand.1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.This teaching of John is to Christians.John is encouraging these Christians to not sin.However, if they do (praise God) we have a advocate (lawyer) JesusJesus stood in for us and took our sins on the cross.However, do not get the idea that it is ok to sin knowing that God is there to forgive through Jesus.We are looking for bad trouble when we do that.John is speaking to us that we do all we can to be sinless, but if we do fall short, praise God, Jesus took on our sins and we can repent and go forward again.What a merciful and loving God we serve! Thanks and Gods’ Blessings to all!Dr. Gary

I just read your comment. I’m curious as to how you came to receive Jesus as your Savior? And do you attend a non-denominational church (church that functions in what we call full Gospel)? I feel that your answer will be hope to others that are lost in sin as you and I once were lost!

HI Gary, What does Pennies denominational affiliation have to do with anything concerning her statement?

The WoF issue is not a charismatic verses non-Charismatoc issue. Some of the best works against the WoF come from come from Pentecostal scholars Gordon Fee and D.R. Mcconnel. And the largest pentecostal denomination, The Assemblies of God, has writtien a position paper denouncing the WoF confession teaching as false.

Well spoken. Eve became curious to the words of the devil, in which instance worked against the faith. To the words of satan “to comparison” , “Ye be as gods”. For the truth is to be “In Christ “for before the foundations God chose each one in His Christ where the scope for comparison does not arise.. For even Jesus in terms of comparison said “The Father is greater than I”. Pride, indeed works contrary to the Faith.

Wow! You and Damon sure read a lot into what I said to Pennie! I see from your comments that neither of you have a clue as to why I asked her the questions. That’s ok, but we must be careful to explain our beliefs w/o being judgmental. I hope you weren’t being judgmental; maybe it just sounded that way. It’s different when we are writing and not looking face to face when we discuss issues.

Your Error is America’s Error which is Misinterpretation of Biblical words to yours being “Judgement” to silencing & Americans being the (Mis)interpretation of “Unto Caesar what is to Caesar & God what is to God” to removing God from the lives & its result -the country fallen into the pitfall of sin in all those sexual immorality in the delusion of calling it Liberty, the Liberty of wickedness put in an Ephah established upon her own pedestal is seen, the sorcery or witchcraft to the wickedness driving the Flying Scroll (Freemasonry to leavened laws) unto the Curse, to the Prophecy. Dr., I must say the Doctors & Phd’s of the day in many ways represent the Pharisees of old by their political correctness to read the very basis of America to Deism, which is , man was created to be put into Automatism when the truth is that Man was created to be guided & build by Him in every walk of life, for the stakes of man’s error are too high in the misjudgements.

Hi Pennie, would you be interested in writing a testimony for our testimony page. Please consider it. Here is a lady who came from the occult and became Christian. She has a kool story and a great website.

Ex-Word of Faith Testimony: Ex-WoFer is also a Former Witch who says The Word of Faith is Witchcraft

To speak a bit broader, the fruit of the present day Apostasy , Biblically Prophesied, can be traced to the “Gnostic Gospels” found in Nag Hammadi “Planted” off course, that which were rejected by the Saints of old( For the faith was once delivered unto them), Who says there is no Conspiracy for way back before Christ there was stated of the manner “There is a conspiracy seen among her Princes”. In the very beginning God did put an Enmity between the Serpent & the Woman, which is to say “The Plants” came off that manifestation for there were two other things apart from the Gnostic Gospels, also Engineered, all to the’ Abomination of Desolation” prophesied to take place & the Apostasy mentioned in this tread is but a part of it. Freemasonry by the initiations to that of Ancient Egyptian beliefs as its Character, even unto the Prophetic words “Spiritual Sodom & Egypt. To this, Is there not seen a great deal of Sodomic activity even through the laws, the laws leavened, spewing out in a hurry?

In short revelations of the Bible & its Prophecies noted through the acts of the day . For the testimony of Jesus is the very Spirit of Prophecy & the core of that Prophecy is to the Inheritance of God come by the Covenant unto its revelations unto the fulfillments, even the Acts of the Apostles by the Church in the Faith which is but to know the post Advent of Pentecost, precisely.

maccos: 1 JOHN 1:10-If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Marco.That scripture you used is referring to our nature and attitude when we come to christ.When we come to christ we have to accept the fact the we have sinned.The reason we know this is because of what the same man writes 2 chapters later “He that sins is of the devil”He that sins does not know God”He that know God DOES NOT SIN because his seed remains in him”.In light of these scriptures we must see that 1st jn 1:10 is not stating that we all are sinners because he also say a few verses later “beloved I would that you would not sin,but if anyone happens to commit a sin we have an advocate with the father,Jesus Christ”.. In my post I give many scriptures that clearly instruct us that we should not sin and that we should not consider ourselves sinners.1st John 1:10 does not teach that we are sinners as christians because he would be contradicting himself with many other scriptures as well as what he wrote 2 chapters later.

The doctrine of sinless perfection is a doctrine of demons and it always ends up back loading the gospel of grace with works. Brought into Christianity by Charles Finney and John Wesley, the doctrine of complete sanctification has morphed from (as finny put it) from a doctrine that it was possible to achieve perfect love (but he had only met one man who he thought had perfected love) – to a second work of grace that removes the Christians sin nature and will allow him to achieve sinless perfection and to be totally set apart from the world.

Be ye as perfect as you Father in heaven is perfect. Perfect here is Metanioa in the Greek and it means to be mature or complete. It does not mean sinless as proven that many sinners in the bible where said to be perfect (Noah, Lucifer) and yet sin was found in Satan and Noah got drunk as soon as he hit high-ground after the flood. Scriptures says there is no one without sin and Romans 6-7 shows us that we will always have a sin nature – until we receive a glorified body.

In Danes case it’s really an exercise in futility to speak against sinless perfection because he does not mention that he is actually sinless he just refuses to call himself a sinner and derides others for doing so. But then again he does proof-text scripture to say and mean that true Christians don’t and can’t sin. As pointed out by other when verses say that Christians cannot sin the verb always should render the text,, does not sin habitually.

I john 1:8 is certainly written by a christian to Christians and John includes him self is the present tense IF **WE** SAY **WE** HAVE NO SIN – THE TRUTH IS NOT IN **US**

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We finally agree on something. I realize that we’ve agreed on other things, too, but wasn’t discussed. I’d be interested in your thoughts on the “Acts” church and how it relates to Christ’s body (church) today..

My view of the book of Acts is much different than 20 years ago when I was a charismatic. I used to see it as foundational to normative christian living but I now see it more fits the history genre rather than didactic like Romans. I now see the book as largely transitional in nature and not a reflection of normative Christians living and practice. And the book itself shows that some of the gifts of the spirit petered out by the end of the book. As history bears out the truth that some gifts have ceased.

Dear Damon, Wow. I am deeply saddened by your walking away from the charismatic functioning of the Holy Spirit. What was it that made you disheartened with the church you were in? There are problems and wrong doctrines mixed with good teaching in most true churches of God on the earth, today. This brief video has not proved anything it stated. It made sweeping statements based on zero facts. At least, it reminds us of the great works of the Holy Spirit to save, heal, and deliver people at Azusa Street. Here is a strange thing; that you see the deaf hear, the blind see, and the dead raised, but you do not know that it is the Spirit of God working. You are in error, sir. Please, seek the Lord! Pinkhouse

There is no doubt that the video and this article proves conclusively that the founders of the Pentecostal movement believed that the gifts of the Spirit in question had already ceased in history and they where seeking to restore and revive the gifts that that time. _______________________

History of the Pentecostal Movement

When you study the history of Pentecostalism it raises some very serious questions as to what their doctrine teaches about the cessation of the Spiritual gifts. When Pentecostalism was born the standard teaching within the movement was that the gifts of the Spirit were “returning” to the church. They never claimed, at that time, that the gifts of the Spirit have always been in operation since the birth of the Church. Today, however, Pentecostals seem to claim that the gifts have never ceased and are still in operation today. They make this claim as though they have always been in operation within the church. This however, conflicts with the teaching of the early Pentecostal Movement.

This is a very serious and important issue that the reader should be aware of. The Bible does teach that the gifts of the Spirit did cease (1 Cor 13:8). What the Bible does not teach is that the gifts of the Spirit will return in a renewal of Pentecost before the imminent return of Christ. This teaching is a man-made doctrine that has no basis in Scripture. Because of this, over the years Pentecostals have distanced themselves from the reasons for which their doctrines were founded. They now try to teach their doctrine as though it has always existed in some form or another since the birth of the New Testament church. This is simply not true. This study proves that Pentecostalism is a “new” religion that was founded near the turn of the twentieth century. Before that time, there was no such teaching in existence.

It is essential the reader realize the importance of this study. The founders of Pentecostalism believed that the day of Pentecost was being “restored.” Never did they teach that the events from that day had existed since Acts chapter 2. Therefore, the leaders of the Pentecostal movement realized that until this time the gifts of the Spirit had ceased. This was the standard teaching of the church from the third century until this time. No one back then ever challenged that idea, nor had there been any evidential use of the gifts to negate it. Instead, they claimed that this was something “new” that was occurring as a sign of the imminent return of Christ

Today Pentecostals teach that the gifts have always been in existence. This is not only unscriptural; there is no historical proof for this claim either. Even their very own church history reveals that this was never the teaching of any Church before Pentecostalism came into existence.

The Beginnings of Pentecostal Thought

John Fletcher (1729-85), a Wesleyan theologian, was the first to use the term “baptism of the Holy Spirit.” This terminology, however, was not used in the same manner as it is used today. Fletcher used this terminology to explain what he believed to be the process of sanctification that led a person to be assured as to their spiritual state. He did not teach that this baptism was separate from sanctification or that it was an experiential evidence of salvation. Those thoughts did not exist until later.

Charles Parham is said to be the originator of the belief that speaking in tongues was the evidence of the Spiritual baptism. Parham, who founded a Bible School in Topeka Kansas, began teaching this before he had ever seen or experienced this phenomenon. After teaching that speaking in tongues was the evidence of Spirit baptism one of his students finally began speaking in tongues. Up until this time, there were no other churches, denominations or sects that taught speaking in tongues was the evidence of Holy Spirit baptism. The Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements says:

The AFM (Apostolic Faith Movement) grew out of the restorationist dreams of a young Kansas evangelist, Charles F. Parham. …. Toward the end of the year he turned the students’ attention to a NT experience as yet unrealized among them – toungues speech. Basing his assertion primarily on Acts 2, he affirmed that speaking in tongues was the biblical for an experience of Spirit baptism. Many of his contemporaries shared his emphasis on the baptism with the Holy Spirit; none, however, had posited a uniform biblical evidence for the experience. As a result, in January 1901 Parham’s students and other followers began to speak in tongues. The school disbanded in the wake of enthusiam to spread the message that yet another dimension of the apostolic faith had been restored.1

What the Early Pentecostals Believed About Their Experiences

As we can see, no one had spoken in tongues and thought it was the evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism before the year 1901. In fact, tongues speech among those who claimed to be Christians was a new thing and those who were speaking in tongues said that this was a renewal of Pentecost. This is evidenced in the teaching of those who began this Pentecostal movement. They were teaching that the gifts of the Spirit, as given on the day of Pentecost, were being “restored” to the church, not that they had always existed. The Dictionary goes on to say:

The Apostolic Faith Movement, according to Parham, had a twofold purpose: the restoration of “the faith once delivered to the saints”, and the promotion of Christian unity. In addition to evidential tongues (which Parham believed should be authentic human languages), the movement affirmed the necessity of crisis sanctification, proclaimed divine healing, espoused premillennialism, urged “faith” living for Christian workers, and valued the manifestation of spiritual gifts.1

Although Charles Parham was the first to state tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism, his pupil William Seymour, who led the famous Azusa Street Revival, is more renown for his impact on the Pentecostal movement. “Practically every early Pentecostal movement in the world can trace its origin directly or indirectly to Seymour’s Azusa Street Mission.” 2

If practically every Pentecostal movement stems from this one place and was led by this one man, it is important to see just what he was teaching. Seymour’s ministry the “Pacific Apostolic Faith Movement” began publishing a periodical entitled the “Apostolic Faith.” In this publication, Seymour explained about the events that were occurring at his mission and other missions around the globe. Seymour proclaimed that these events were part of the latter rain prophesied of in Joel. To him, and all of his followers, this was a restoration of the empowering of the Spirit. The gifts were given once again in preparation for the imminent return of the Lord. Here are several statements from the “Apostolic Faith” periodical that confirm this very fact.

This is the year of jubilee when God is sending the latter rain, and the refreshing times have come. DEC 06

The Lord did great things in 1906. Pentecost first fell in Los Angeles on April 9th. JAN O7

We are glad God had one humble preacher in Akron who opened wide the door to receive this “latter rain”. We are likely just getting the first sprinkling of the great shower that is to come. Praise God! JAN 07

The burden of everyone that has received their personal Pentecost is “Jesus is coming soon.” JAN 07

To the Apostolic Faith People, Saints, and Friends; the ninth of April is the birthday of Pentecost to us, for the Pentecost fell here on April 9, 1906. May all that have received this precious gift, the baptism with the Holy Ghost, honor that day as a jubilee feast, in praise and thanks to God for sending the old time Pentecost back to earth again. FEB 07

924 N. Kansas Ave., Topeka, Kans., Feb. 21.-Glory to Jesus for the real Pentecostal power that is coming back to His people. FEB 07

Other Sources Document The Beginning of This New Strange Doctrine

The Los Angeles Times also reported on the events taking place at Azusa Street. We can see from this secular paper, that the events taking place were unheard of before this time. These events were so strange and uncommon that the paper called the partakers “fanatics” and mentioned several times how these teachings were new. Below are some excerpts from the Los Angeles Times April 1906 article on the Azusa Street Happenings.

Breathing strange utterances and mouthing a creed which it would seem no sane mortal could understand, the newest religious sect has started in Los Angeles. Meetings are held in a tumble-down shack on Azusa Street, near San Pedro Street, and devotees of the weird doctrine practice the most fanatical rites, preach the wildest theories and work themselves into a state of mad excitement in their peculiar zeal. Colored people and a sprinkling of whites compose the congregation, and night is made hideous in the neighborhood by the howlings of the worshippers who spend hours swaying forth and back in a nerve-racking [sic] attitude of prayer and supplication. They claim to have “the gift of tongues;” and to be able to comprehend the babel.

Such a startling claim has never yet been made by any company of fanatics, even in Los Angeles, the home of almost numberless creeds. Sacred tenets, reverently mentioned by the orthodox believer, are dealt with in a familiar, if nor irreverent, manner by these latest religionists.

Another speaker had a vision in which he saw the people of Los Angeles flocking in a mighty stream to perdition. He prophesied awful destruction to this city unless its citizens are brought to a belief in the tenets of the new faith.

Linking Modern Pentecostalism to These Teachings

We can also look at the historical statements of modern Pentecostalism, to prove that they can and do trace their roots back to the Azusa Street Revival and the Topeka experience of 1901.

The Assemblies of God has its roots in a religious revival that began in the late 1800’s and swept into the 20th century with widespread repetition of biblical spiritual experiences…The beginning of the modern Pentecostal revival is generally traced to a prayer meeting at Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, on January 1, 1901….most researchers agree it was here that recipients of the experience, through study of the Scriptures, came to believe speaking in tongues is the biblical evidence for the baptism in the Holy Spirit…By 1914…the need arose for formal recognition of ministers as well as approval and support of missionaries, with full accounting of funds…These concerned leaders realized that to protect and preserve the results of the revival the thousands of newly Spirit-baptized believers should be united in a cooperative fellowship…The five reasons they listed for calling the meeting were: doctrinal unity, conservation of the work, foreign missions interests, chartering churches under a common name for legal purposes, and the need for a Bible training school….A cooperative fellowship emerged from the meeting and was incorporated under the name “The General Council of the Assemblies of God.” 3

The UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International) emerged out of the Pentecostal movement that began in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. It traces its organizational roots to October 1916, when a large group of ministers withdrew from the Assemblies of God over the doctrinal issues of the oneness of God and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.4

The Apostolic Faith Church is a worldwide religious organization, with international headquarters in Portland, Oregon. Our roots stem from a 1906 revival on Azusa Street in Los Angeles. 5

In its statement of faith, the Pentecostal Holiness Church distills and preserves the three great spiritual reforms of recent Christianity-Lutheran, Wesleyan, and pentecostal. Each of these revival movements brought to light and reemphasized truths concerning the Christian experience that apparently had been lost since the times of the early church.6

The Church of God is the only Pentecostal Church that I have found that proclaims it was founded before either one. Ten years before the Azusa Street Revival, a group of 8 or 9 men (one page of the Church of God website said 8 while another said 9) experienced what they now refer to as the “baptism of the Spirit” with the evidence of speaking in tongues. However, their own historians admit that there was little evidence as to what they experienced and what they believed that it was at that time.

A small band of believers formed the Christian Union on the banks of Barney Creek in Monroe County, Tennessee, on August 19, 1886. We know little about their activities, but the passion of those nine people who covenanted together probably rivaled the heat of a typical blistering summer day…Although they left few records, their efforts led to the growth of a denomination that approaches the end of the twentieth century with 4,648,000 members.7

We do know from the later writings of their leader and founder R. G. Spurling; they did begin to teach the same meaning of these gifts as the above Pentecostals. They believed that these gifts were part of what they called the “latter rain” and that God was giving these gifts “again” to the church, not that these gifts had been given since Acts 2.

Oh Brother if you now refrain You are sure to miss the “latter rain” Be sure you’ve counted all the cost And got your blessed Pentecost 8

Then when the Jewish Church was rejected and ready to vanish and pass away as a nation, the prophecy of speaking to them in other tongues was fulfilled and for all this they would not hear. Now God is speaking again in other tongues, to the nominal churches of today and they are rejecting the counsel of God against themselves, not being baptized with the Holy Ghost.9

Conclusion

It is clear from the teaching of the early Pentecostal Movement, that they believed their experiences were something new that was returning to the church (which has no basis in Scripture). It is also clear that mainstream Pentecostals admit their churches were born out of this movement. From this we can make only one observation.

History confirms that the gifts of the Spirit had ceased and did not exist in the church before the birth of Pentecostalism. Pentecostals claim that the gifts do and have existed since the birth of the church. Their own teachings do not line up with their own history. Because of this, they are not being true to their heritage and they are not being honest with us. Their founders never questioned the gifts had ceased. Why do they now claim otherwise?

The same organizations above that claim and admit their heritage stems from the above teachings make these claims as well.

The Assemblies of God Website tells us:

at Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, on January 1, 1901….most researchers agree it was here that recipients of the experience, through study of the Scriptures, came to believe speaking in tongues is the biblical evidence for the baptism in the Holy Spirit3

There is no indication in Scripture that tongues would cease at the end of the first century. Tongues are to be a part of the life of the church in every generation until Christ returns to set up His perfect kingdom. Paul’s perception was that spiritual gifts would be operational until that day (1 Corinthians 1:7, 8).10

The UPCI Website says:

The UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International) emerged out of the Pentecostal movement that began in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. It traces its organizational roots to October 1916, when a large group of ministers withdrew from the Assemblies of God over the doctrinal issues of the oneness of God and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.4

Was the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the apostles or early disciples only? Is it today available to only a select few who are “superspiritual”? The obvious answer to these questions is no. The Apostle Peter made it very plain in his message on the Day of Pentecost that the gift of the Holy Ghost is for everyone:11

The Apostolic Faith Churches Website Says:

The Apostolic Faith Church is a worldwide religious organization, with international headquarters in Portland, Oregon. Our roots stem from a 1906 revival on Azusa Street in Los Angeles. 5

When one receives the gift of the Holy Ghost, He comes to live in the sanctified heart. When this infilling occurs, it is accompanied by the same sign as the disciples had on the Day of Pentecost—the speaking with “other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts 2:4).12

Other churches make similar claims. How can we believe what they teach about the doctrine when they admit their roots were in the early Pentecostal movement that taught something totally contrary? The answer is we cannot. When we examine their teaching against Scripture it is clear that the gifts have indeed ceased. The historical record confirms that fact.

It is my hope that by examining their history the reader has been able to see that they are right to question whether these churches are exercising gifts based upon Scripture, or based upon man-made theology. For further study, please see our Scriptural examination of the Spiritual Gifts and how the Bible teaches they have ceased.

With all due respect, you perform the same lack of hermeneutic principles that you accuse others of.

Not to be clear, I do not align with Pentecostalism because most of them teach that tongues is the evidence of the Holy Spirit which is NOT in Scripture in the slightest. That teaching is based on reading INTO the text of three different verses in Acts that equate the idea that “they knew they had the Holy Spirit because they spoke in tongues” (rough paraphrase of what the three references say. Of course, this interpretation ignores the rest of the verse that says”and prophecied” or “and extolled God” or something else to that effect.

On the other hand, to interpret ! Cor 13:8 as “proving” that the Spiritual gifts DID end is the same type of reading INTO the text. The verse states they WILL end not that they DID end. To imply that this means they DID end is to read into the text.

Since I know it is coming; how do I interpret this? I interpret it as nothing more than it actually says: they will end some day. I likely figure it is at the end times when there is no need for them at all.

In regard to history… this is not true either. I do not care what the Pentecostals say about their own origins. The Catholic Church has been claiming miracles consistently throughout history. I would suggest the Pentecostal claim that gifts of the Spirit ceased is more about their refusal to acknolwedge the Catholic Church than it being founded in truth.

Are the Pentecostals REALLY off base (in general) with their views on gifts of the Spirit? By all means yes. Is there ANY Biblical evidence (even your reference to “history” is the very anecdotal evidence you cite as invalid) that the Gifts ceased? No. Your verse does not support that premise.

Damon,first l think you should re-examine metanoia.In the greek it means “to change ones mind”Its definition has nothing to do with love or purity.Secondly I derided no one.I did nothing of the sort.Its too bad that you have chosen to alienate and demonize me for my beliefs instead of conducting a continuing dialogue.I ask questions and give a great deal of thought to everything I say.Instead of conducting a dialogue with me you ignore me and speak of me in the third person and demonize me for my beliefs.I do not teach that we are perfect and sinless,I teach that we should not count ourselves as sinners and should seek to be sinless and perfect because Christ said to do so and I gave a number of scriptures which clearly support that fact.Instead you rail on me and defame me all the while not even making an attempt to discuss even one of the scriptures I have given.I will no longer respond to comments on this thread,its become too unpleasant..

When I said that Damon and I finally agree on something, I meant to imply that I agreed with him about how he believed sin is to be addressed. If you have read Damon’s comments to me, you will see that he writes the same way to me as to you. I encourage you to continue to give your comments, as there will be other subjects arise and it is good to get comments, so that we can pray that we will learn from each other.

I think bottom line on the sin issue is that we are human and can commit a sin, but always repent of that sin and go forward. When we practice sin we have a real problem. Did you read my comments on this subject earlier?

How do you feel that the “Acts” church pertains to Christ’s body (church) today? I find it interesting that God gave that church as an example and yet we have thousands of different doctrines, if you will, today. Please, hang in with us and give a comment on my question.

It’s hard to believe but Joel sometimes does mention God to edit Jesus out. Case in point, in his book I DECLARE Joel says that when Lakewood bought the Compaq Center to turn it into the new Lakewood Church the engineers told him it would cost many millions more to renovate the place than had been previously estimated. Joel said he had bad thoughts but chose to to “prophecy his future” by voicing his thoughts and instead relied on God who is called Jehovah Jirah which means God will provide. But that name of God comes from Genesis 22 where God provided a ram for Abraham in place of Issac to sacrifice. Jehovah Jirah does not mean that God will provide millions for a church renovation. It meant that God will provide a lamb to be slain for the sins of the world. But instead of taking a great opportunity in his book to tell people about their sins and need of a savior (which tragically he never does), Joel instead tries to make that name of God mean that He will provide anything we have enough faith to speak and believe positively for. There are many more examples in Joel books that could be made where Joel does about the same thing.

These so called “Positive Preachings” or called cross legged “Love & Fresh Air” teachings to the itching ears, which preachers think that but so doing they do Christ a favor, when in the truth there were hardly any ear pleasing words from Jesus & his Apostles such that even today the Jews are annoyed with Him, annoyed at their own truth within them to the simple logic when man who in sin is appeased, it is the Sin within which is been appeased , but Truth comes as a counter totally against the Sin hence it burns like a sword piercing the heart, its gases emitted, for any one who had the visitation, trembling as is said, which is to Joel’s Prophecy concerning the Post Advent of Pentecost to the Lord’s Army, the invinsible one, would clearly understand what Christ is about, so throughly would one be broken such that he would find himself in the path to eternity to the great blessing, even unto His words ‘The many that I love I rebuke & Chastise” to “My yoke is easy & my Burden Light’ is to say highly effective, for even this has been corrupted today falsifying the latter rain through sects like Joel’s Army , Toronto blessing, Kansas city Prophets etc. Prophets like Rick Joyner, the lot of TBN, God channels, even unto those Christian Zionists all of whom twist the Truth to revealing the Prophecy of the manner ” cause they received not the love of the truth & for this reason God send them a strong delusion that they may believe THE LIE”. “The Lie” -Israel in the wilderness made a golden calf & said ” the gods that brought us out of Egypt” , now the manifestation of that lie of the golden calf & to its gods is seen the symbols & icons within the Supreme court in Tel Aviv coated through Freemasonry – the gods of the golden calf except it be lead back to Egypt through the present gods of Egypt revealing their symbols in the Occult & Lo its Prophets to the delusion well into the truth of the Prophecy of “Spiritual Sodom & Egypt”

One needs to understand his ministry. Not everyone needs fire and brimstone preaching,some people already feel condemned and disgarded. Say your a woman who’s husband walked out on you who’s had an affair,your at the end of your rope,possibly suicidal?

The last person I’d want to click on is Donny Swaggart. Joel has an anointing to reach out to the broken hearted,and has ministered to thousands who lost hope. I don’t agree with all of his approaches,but give him credit,he’s just a man who fails like everyone that has cut him down on the forum.

Except that he preaches off himself & not of Christ , for Jesus & the Apostles preached the truth & the untruth for the reason that the untruth be known so that the truth may be discerned. Christ is in the fulness, so preaching Him is to be in the fulness , for half preachings are not to him but to the Pseudo, invariably denoted by the itching ears, to the Biblical words of the manner “He who says he has no sin , deceives himself’.

As I read down the list of things going on “in the church” from all these articles and stories, I can’t help but wonder that these so called churches are NOT the church at all. People, be not deceived, for the cleansing that GOD is doing and about to do on a massive scale WILL begin in the church. Rejoice in these kinds of articles. Pray that these leaders come to their senses and repent but rejoice because when the Holy Spirit is done…………what’s left will be GLORIOUS!

When a pastor starts “watering down” or using cute gimmicks to draw people into his church….it’s a good sign that they are not SOLD OUT for Jesus. Yeah, they’ll have their time in the sun and maybe even get a little bit of fame………….but it will only be for a season. The closer a strong move of GOD is about to take place, the more frequent we shall read these kinds of stories. Do NOT be troubled in your own spirit, but rather pray and intercede for those that are being led astray. Pray that GOD almighty reveal himself to these folks and put light back into their lamps for the glory of GOD. All have fallen short, but we as believers shouldn’t be the ones to finish them off with our words. Our job is to pray and let GOD work on their hearts. I see nowhere in scripture does it say to kill off someone who has gotten off track…..even way off track. Yes, we should separate ourselves but that’s where intercession for them comes in.

And that faith a Christian is called to live is called the “Apostolic Faith” the faith that was once delivered unto the Saints & through them, it continues For Eg a true preacher is one who would preach the integral part of salvation which again is to the Prophecy of “looking up the brazen serpent in the wilderness” for the serpent denotes one’s flesh to its desires come down from Eden, ( Israel for a time even worshiped the Brazen serpent till a wise KIng ground it to dust, for by so doing they where worshipping their own flesh) which is but the words of Jesus ‘Pick up your crosses & follow me DAILY”, to say “Crucify your Flesh” for none can take His cross but our own cross to Equate with Him so that by his death & resurrection we may also be resurrected in Him, even to the Prophecy of Daniel unto the stopping “the Daily Sacrifices” , for they are already doing it the so called preachers who preach not this highly inconvenient but integral truth ’cause it crosses their prosperity & social agendas even to the Prophecy “They will gather unto themselves preachers to their “Itching ears”, “They’ are the whole lot of people & the Osteen’s are their just slaves, rendering services which but becomes “Democracy” the way of Politics applied to religion coming against the warning of Jesus “Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s but give unto God what is to God” a clear refutation of his words. One cannot Expect His Spirit to live in oneself behaving in the Contrary , in short it becomes Either God or Mammon.

To Standing in the presence of the Most High God is revealed by – A visionary standing in an open ground becomes filled with the Holy Spirit , when a shadow from the Glory Cloud comes over him & a large area around him, He then kneels, his hands outstretched on either side at an angle of 45 deg. between the shoulder level & his body , palms open facing forward , head raised up reciting the Lord’s Prayer, is to note no any own prayer or own words are uttered & the hands not raises more than that given. This is called “Praying in the presence of the Most high” . Now to the usual prayers, howlings ,, holy spirit moves, Wendy & Rory tv’s , Tbn goodbyes & byebyes, music & mayhem etc is but done imagining the presence of god’. Now to the presence of the Most High apart from the OT , the NT gives atleast two references one is the incident at the Mount of Transfiguration & the other, in this case, to seeding of the Messiah is to the words of Archangel Gabriel unto Mary- Fear not Mary , for the Holy Spirit shall come upon you AND the Power of the Most high shall OverShadow you.” to say the shadow of the Glory Cloud came over her, while filled in the Holy Spirit , to seed His son in her. None can stand before the Glory even to His words unto Moses, & hence comes as the shadow . Unfortunately people like Benny Hiins apart from the Osteens, Joycemayers , Creflo $$$ , the whole lot, are ignorant ’cause they have not the revelation of the Holy Spirit regarding the relationship of the Father, with the Son & the Spirit & as holyspirit people making the spirit above all that of the Father is but to know their own spirits within them. Like Benny Hinn even though in a supposidely positive sense uttered his fear of Prophet Elijah, is but resonating Jezebel, to her fear of Elijah , she who worshipped baal.

I believe that we are sinners. That is why Jesus went to the cross for us. We must repent when we sin and try to not repeat our sins. We are not perfect. Jesus is our comforter. We need to witness and study the Bible to have the knowledge of God’s word.

I was raised christian and believe we are all sinners at birth and need Jesus to get to heaven. I see where Joel Is careful what he says cause christian’s don’t get that far in the business talking about sins/repentance, which I am now seeing and that is dangerous christianity. so weather Joel Is truly a man of God or not I get a lot from his messages that I don’t get in church. King David, Moses, Noah, would have never done what they did being small minded, my aunts/uncles raised christian were taught they were filthy rags, were nothing and needed God. Norman v. peele (a christian) publishes books on Positive imaging using your mind to move toward your goal mixed with prayer uplifting yourself to life’s challenges, whats wrong with that? besides I also listen to Tony Robins which believes in God plus he cusses but since hes not a Pastor claiming to be christian It’s irrelevante. And without religion in the mix his simalure aproach on life and believing in yourself to do the impossible is no more important than what kind of ice cream I juat ate. Ive added imaging to my life and faith and Ive changed and am so happy!

Thanks for your comments. I am glad you understand the need and importance to discuss sin and repentance. I just wanted to point out other things you mentioned. King David, Moses and Noah, achieved what they did by God. It was God who told Noah how to build the ark, brought the animals to him and shut the door. It was God who brought the flood. It was The Lord who told Moses how and when to demand the freedom of the Israelites. And God who brought the plagues that would lead to their freedom. And it was David’s own testimony that: ” David said moreover, The Lord that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine…”(1 Samuel 17:37). In all these instances it was God providing the miraculous breakthrough, not the individual or any positive thinking or reciting of special words.

Things go wrong when we think we can achieve on our own through special techniques like visualization or “positive thinking” or chanting mantras and using The Secret like Joel Osteen. This is now how God commands us to live. Christians are to seek The Lord in prayer, with an open heart, pouring out our cares, fears and desires to The Lord. Nowhere are we told to recite positive affirmations or other practices. When Jesus taught His disciples how to pray, He did not tell them to do any of the techniques of Tony Robbins or Joel Osteen. We are to simply pray and maybe God will provide what we ask for or maybe He will say no. Or not yet. There are no guarantees in this life. All our guarantees are in the afterlife. And that is where true joy comes from. I hope you consider it. God bless.

Jehovah my Shepherd; I shall not lack. He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me to waters of rest; He restores my soul; He guides me in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil; for You with me; Your rod and Your staff they comfort me. You prepare a table for me before being hostile to me; You anoint my head with oil; my cup runs over. Surely, goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of Jehovah for as long as days.

The Lord is my Shepherd. I am a child of the Most High God. He restores my soul. Mercy follows me. I dwell in the house of Jehovah…

It’s Bible y’all plain and simple. No counterfeit will ever change Him or His ways. He is the original and He ain’t changin’.

Maybe some have itching ears that want to hear lies about true preachers? I am not saying they are all perfect. I am not saying perhaps money is an issue for them, but God hasn’t shown me that with Joel, but I am still leaving that open as a possibility of mixture just as a lot here possibly have the mixture of division. If Damon writes WoF’ers one more time! lol Isn’t that lumping people into a group to say I am of this ministry or, equally wrong, not of this ministry? Only ministries that are truly cults like Mormons, JW, new age pantheism can we say I have nothing to do with them or their beliefs! A minister of the true gospel who we don’t completely agree with their methods, yet we denounce them as false, we are causing schisms in the Body. Not cool.

Dear B&E, Well, I am not going to be writing on this stream anymore. You have very demonic people writing on here who don’t even make proper sense or sentences. You have some making entire doctrines out of a question they feel should be answered while ignoring what the New Testament says about observing the behavior of church leaders, out of hand! That is very un Biblical. Jesus detests schisms in His body and those who perpetrate them. I was having fun putting my “feelers” out on the net and practicing expressing myself, but y’all are too far out there; to embrace demonic babbling and eschew mature, Biblical standards of judging behavior is evidence of a wrong spirit in operation. I believe Damon is a brother who was hurt or confused in a previous church setting and is hiding in his “no Holy Spirit” bubble. I pray he gets healed and finds peace. Others who are not even saved, I pray will find Jesus for real. Those who publish this site I pray will have their eyes opened to any possible idolatry of the word. There is coming a time when these reproofs will precede people dropping dead in their sin. I pray y’all get it straight before then. Ciao. Peace out. pinkhouse

There was this person, sort of preaching & thinking in the like manner when certain experiences were related to a Visionary saying “Jesus appeared to me twice & the said that I will not be come under His Judgement”. Now the visionary asked the person as to why Jesus had to repeat the same words twice, to which the person became baffled. Revealed the one- The First time Jesus was talking about His intention & the second time by the same words was emphasizing the same intention which was but a warning. The Fear of God got into the person & was humbled, for the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom , never from ear pleasers to itching ears,, who pride through their claims of “Are Saved”, who deceive & are deceiving even to the Prophecy of that Strong Delusion from God, so much so, Count not the chickens before they are hatched,

Hi! I wrote you a comment, however, lost it when I clicked post comment. Get online Tom Brown Ministries. He answers many questions. And I recommend “The New Spirit Filled Life Bible.” They elaborate on subjects in the written part or the Bible, at the end of the chapter and have a study part at bottom of page. When I get time, I will probably get back to this site and give to you my answer.

Thanks for your question. Let’s look at the verses and clarify them. But let’s start by looking at the full context in chapter 2:

And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. – Genesis 2:15-17.

So here we get the context. God put Adam in the garden and told him he could eat of all the trees except for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Now let’s go to Satan’s deception of Eve:

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. – Genesis 3:1-5.

So here Satan blatantly contradicts what The Lord said. God said eating from the tree will lead to sure death. Satan said you shall NOT surely die. So there is no way they can both be correct on this issue.

Let’s now look at Genesis 3:22:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. – Genesis 3:22-24.

In this passage a NEW tree is introduced: the Tree of Life. This is a second special tree that is being referenced. In verse 22, God is clear that Adam and Eve have already eaten from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and became as the Heavenly beings who fully understand good and evil because Satan was already a rebel by this time. That is the similarity between Adam and Eve and God. Not in Adam and Eve’s “divinity.” Adam and Eve were mortals. And verse 22 reinforces this because they needed the Tree of Life to sustain their lives forever. So on their own, they could not do this. They were flesh and blood, sinful human beings. Not gods, in any way shape or fashion.

It is the Tree of Life that could have kept them alive, but they were never to eat from it because they were banished from the Garden. And thus they were instantly put in need for a Savior to redeem them back to reconcilation with God. And The Lord gave them this hope in verse 15 with the promise of the “seed of the woman” who would one day crush the head of the serpent. And that seed of course is The Lord Jesus Christ, who defeated the Devil, sin and the grave on the cross at Calvary – allowing for us all to be redeemed from death and the curse of sin. I hope that clarifies things. If you have any questions please feel free to ask. God bless you.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die (this is true because God and Satan know the consequential death can be overcome by eating the tree of life as stated in verse 22):5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil (this is also true when God said after eating the tree of knowledge in verse 22, “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”).

Thanks for getting back to me. In verse 4 Satan is referring to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That was the ONLY tree that Adam and Eve were not permitted to eat from. Prior to sinning they were permitted to eat from the Tree of Life. So Satan’s statement was false. The tree of Good and Evil is not tree being referred to in verse 22.

And let’s also remember that upon sinning Adam and Eve became spiritually dead. They were corrupted beings and no longer at peace with The Lord. This is why Adam’s children were born in his image and not God’s. So they did indeed die in the most important way as soon as they sinned.

The whole point was to know what is good & what is evil without indulging in it & this is done by taking of the fruit of the Tree of Life . And the proof is in the Angels of God who separate the wheat from the chaff ,cause they know perfectly well that which is good & that which is evil , for they who have not indulged in the fruit of good & evil but are from the Tree of Life. Satan interpreted the word of God in comparative terms revealing himself, thus leavening the word, to form the very basis of Gnosticism.

The whole point is “Satan” did not lie in this story (see my May 15, 2013 11:53 AM post) and gaining knowledge is not bad neither indulging/applying the knowledge to own’s life. Even “God” has knowledge and applying the knowledge. Where can you find that eating the Tree of Life is indulging in the Tree of Knowledge? The two Trees are different from each other.

And once again, Satan did lie. Adam and Eve did indeed die. They suffered spiritual death and corruption that we all now share in our inborn sin nature. They also suffered physical death. So Satan lied to them. The knowledge they gained was that they were now sinners. And in their shame, they hid from God. There was no “ascension” to godhood. Nowhere do we see Adam and Eve any better off by any measure after listening to Satan. In fact, they were far worse off in every way possible.

I know from the start of my post that there are two different trees! The first tree was Tree of Knowledge. Once eaten by MAN, he will be like god – knowing what is good and evil but the bad consequence of eating this first tree is death but death can be solved by eating the second tree which is the Tree of Life. That’s why SATAN said “you will not surely die” because SATAN knows of the second tree as the solution to the consequential death but “GOD” used his power to prevent MAN from eating the second tree that will make MAN grow/mature/evolve into truly like “THEM/GODS” (knowledgeable and immortal). In summary of this story, Satan wanted man to be truly like THEM/GODS (knowledgeable and immortal) but “God” wants MAN to be eternally ignorant and submissive to HIM/GOD. In short, SATAN did not really lie. One thing more, I strongly believe that the the DEATH mentioned here in Genesis 3 is PHYSICAL DEATH because “SPIRITUAL DEATH” or “SECOND DEATH” will occur only if JESUS comes already. I hope to hear from you and others soon in this very intriguing issue.

“That’s why SATAN said “you will not surely die” because SATAN knows of the second tree as the solution to the consequential death”

What you are doing is called eisegesis, which is reading your own ideas into the text. You are reading Satan’s motives and knowledge when it is not stated at all in the actual text itself. By this method, you can come to any conclusion you like because there is no real link to the text at issue. With all due respect, this is not a fruitful way to read the Bible.

Satan’s first sentence is a blatant misstatement of God’s Word. He is a liar and the father of lies. We know this from the Word of The Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Was Jesus wrong? I see that you are trying to vindicate Satan in some way, but the text just does not support you. Adam and Eve received the promise of the Messiah in Genesis 3:15, not to save them from physical death, but to save them from spiritual death. We can know that spiritual death was in view because their sin was immediately at issue. They became aware that they were naked and hid from God. Adam and Eve were in open union with God in Eden. Their sin brought that to an abrupt end. Thus they were spiritually dead and that sin nature passes to every single human since. Hence us all being “dead in trespasses and sin.” That is not physical death, but spiritual.

So all this just comes down to whether you take the Bible for what it says and truly trust Jesus Christ or if you are going to go with your own ideas that you are bringing to the text?

Speaking of the two trees, to some when they smell Rose preach Christ as Krisn’a & the same when they see Pink preach Krisn’a as Christ. Just a matter of convenience with a little twist here & there, a little lie there & here , from Eden.

What’s the connection between smelling rose and preaching Christ as Krisna (whoever he is) and seeing pink and preaching Krishna as Christ to Genesis Chapter 3? Don’t be flowery! Say what you mean! I was just proving that Satan was not lying in Genesis Chapter 3 on the verses contained in that chapter. Again, I know from the start of my post that there are two different trees! The first tree was Tree of Knowledge. Once eaten by MAN, he will be like god – knowing what is good and evil but the bad consequence of eating this first tree is death but death can be solved by eating the second tree which is the Tree of Life. That’s why SATAN did not lie when SATAN said “you will not surely die” because SATAN knows of the second tree as the solution to the consequential death and there really is but “GOD” used his power to prevent MAN from eating the second tree that will make MAN grow/mature/evolve into truly like “THEM/GODS” (knowledgeable and immortal). In summary of this story, Satan wanted man to be truly like THEM/GODS (knowledgeable and immortal) but “God” wants MAN to be eternally ignorant and submissive to HIM/GOD. In short, SATAN did not really lie. One thing more, I strongly believe that the the DEATH mentioned here in Genesis 3 is PHYSICAL DEATH because “SPIRITUAL DEATH” or “SECOND DEATH” will occur only if JESUS comes already as taught.

She says she was praying and crying and singing to her savior, but then in the same breath she says she did everything on her own and brought everything to herself. I beg to differ, IF God was answering you IT IS NOT YOU THAT ARE DOING THE MIRACLES IN YOUR LIFE AND CAN NOT BE!!

harold bennette: I’m not sure exactly what I’m getting out of this but a friend emailed me this link And what I comprehend is negativity in this article I only see where in this post it says he does not teach the word of god and more or less witchcraft But what I see with my eyes is a person that is indeed saying to get closer to god and be thankful when you wake up and go to a good bible based church (was his words) I may misunderstand what this is projecting but from what I see is it is negative and saying he is not doing right and doing his own teachings When I teach people about my job I do not go by any written instructions I use my own life experiences to teach other how to do the job I have done for 35 years I actually don’t see anything wrong with the way Joel speaks but I did watch a few of his videos due to this email Perhaps this email was to get me to watch his videos and make my own decision about if he is not doing the right thing I perceive him to be doing right I don’t see him asking for money I don’t see anything negative in what he is showing us

Sorry if I differ in my views but my heart tells me it is not wrong what he is doing Perhaps other people see it as wrong but I see only well I am a very street wise person and know a con man when I see one Even if they never say a word I can feel if they are a bad person and I feel no bad vibes from Joel On the other hand I have felt evil enter the room when they walked in the door and it was very chilling

Even Satan appears as an angel of light……will not the anti-Christ deceive the entire world? What I am getting at is that I have studied Joel and his teaching and find that much of what he teaches is very deceiving. He even stated that God is whom you make him….and we can get to heaven through our good works… both of these statements are blasphemous. I am saved from a life of drugs and gangs s my knowledge of deceivers is well too. But be not deceived…….

To a little more understanding of these deceits even the hidden arms of Freemasonry (not to be deceived by the word free) brought in through Christian names but are not Christian but its Antithesis To the visionary standing before a Rock beside which stood a fierce looking messenger & the visionary on scratching the surface of the rock appeared what seemed written was/is/will be but due to the outer crust that was scratched he asked the messenger in the Spirit about the rock “Is he the one that appeared unto Moses ” referring to God , the God of the Covenant even unto the words “Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is one God”. But the answer was Negative, for the Holy Spirit cannot be lied unto since it is the Spirit of truth. This speaks volumes to the great deceit taking place as prophesied , “My people fall due to the lack of Knowledge”, void of spiritual revelations. The many alters figured in the Freemasonic supreme court denote just this, to the leavens of the law & the law leavened is cursed unto Zech 5 the flying scroll- Freemasonry & the wickedness in an Ephah that drives it even unto the days marker “The Sodomic Agendas” off those alters figured, called the ring of vishnu, the seal of Solomon in all the corruptions, for Solomon was the first great Apostate- all but the revelation of the Golden Calf & its gods, “Israel thy gods–” that great Lie revealed ,against which comes the Strong delusion from God., even the ear pleasings & rebellions inc. misrepresenting/twisting the gospels, to the ticklings, indeed.

Are they really both so deaf, blind and deluded that they don’t know there are only two final destinations: Heaven and Hell, and that they are heading for the latter since they have abandoned Jesus and embraced His enemy? When I consider the hundreds of Christians in the Middle East and around the world who are martyred daily because they will not deny Jesus, it sickens me to listen to these two….. so I don’t any longer.

Hello brothers and sisters in the Lord! I can’t find my previous comment that I wanted to amend, but here is my correction/clarification: The Catholic Church is most likely the Great Mystery Babylon of prophecy in scripture, through and through. Not just the hidden, secret, shadow church that practices Freemasonry, Lucifer worship, Pantheism,… The entire structure public and private is apostate. The mistake I made was repeating a phrase I heard a local pastor make. The person is very anointed, no question, and preaches the Word very accurately, for the most part. This was a mistake. I was agreeing with that statement by thinking of the Bible as the basic doctrine of the Catholic Church. I meant the Bible is correct, but not the bad ruling body. I thought it was akin to the Pharisees and Sadducees who had the true Word of God yet were of a wrong spirit. I guess the comparison should have been more to realize that the ruling body of the Jewish people in Jesus’ day had also co-opted the Jewish faith for their own political and financial purposes and added rules upon rules, precepts upon precepts until the Word was completely covered in lies and religious doctrine and practices. So, when the ruler of the day saw the great faith and move of the Spirit in the early Christians and how big the true body of believers was in Rome even thought faith in Jesus was illegal. He legalized the true faith by creating the “Catholic” church and incorporating all the pagan religions by Christianizing all the mystery religion’s practices. The word Catholic means “a wide variety of things; all embracing.” Wow. Just learned that! I thought it was a religious word for Christian or some such. I was never Catholic and never had a reason to look into it until now when I am studying Bible prophecy and the end times in depth. I took others’ word for it. We all want to agree and be agreeable as much as possible and individual people may find Jesus from reading the Word even if they attend a Catholic church, but it would be more of a miracle and not bc of the Church’s doctrine. they have some crazy doctrines! The communion wine and bread does not actually turn into the blood and body of Jesus. So weird. Well, that was a major error on my part to make that comment. Maybe I changed my mind and never posted it, but in the case that I did, here is my retraction. Love in Christ Pinkhouse

Using the words “Purple & Scarlet ” & the city that sits on seven Mountains, falsely termed as seven hills, are the words from Prophecy which have been used by the actual people of “Purple & Scarlet” in their propaganda against the Church come through the protestant & reformation agendas, into the thousands of denominations & are you so blind by complacent that you see not these Churches & their Episcopals fallen/falling like a pack of cards into the curse of “Sodom’. Freemasonry out of that ‘ole iniquity & the wickedness that governs it to Zech 5 is the very manifestation off the Enmity from Eden, the arch enemy of the Catholic Church & is no wonder that these turn & twist the Gospel through the likes of Scofield, Darby’s, Horts etc & through the many false prophets even through ‘Prestigious Institutions’ except hot beds of all Anti Christ activities to secretive racist , western & feminist philosophies unto their own Agendas creating incidents like false flag operations, to world Dominance & Governance destroying many & Lo act as god expect to the devils demons, though termed as gods. The devils of freemasonry are denoted by the many alters figured in the British Freemasonic(Political Babylon off the three parts of Babylon) Supreme court, to Egypt today denoted by Hinduism (Spiritual Babylon off the 3 parts of Babylon),but the Prophesied strong delusion from God, through a people unto the world. Now ‘Scarlet & Purple” represent Royalty , in this case a kingship as well as High Priest, points directly to the Anglican Church, the hot bed of the Apostasy , for its head, the Royals instead of Christ , all along using it for their utmost ends , to the world, today represented by its Queen , the head of Freemasonry. ever since. even from QE1 ” For she sits as a widow (freemasonry cells are termed as widows) thinking that she has no need —— & in a day will the Plagues come upon her” Neither is it any wonder, for last was witnessed the Lord Himself in His fullness as the Angel of the The Church of Thyatira, generally deemed as the Catholic Church, standing in battle readiness . Neither is their much cause for the Catholic to rejoice , for them who use the Church for their own ends like the Cafeteria’s & Anglican agendas , to the words of St John “Sweet in the mouth but bitter in the stomach” to know that the Lord values His saints, for upon their blood was the faith delivered. It is about time, for many are truly beginning to understand that America born out of her mother England is the revelation of the Prophesied Harlot of Mystery Babylon & that specific city is New York ( The Commercial Babylon off the three part of Babylon).

“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” – Acts 17:10-11.

The Bereans provide a standard today for how we should receive preaching. We are to have “readiness of mind” which means that we are alert and paying close attention to receive God’s Word. But they also “searches the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” So they were eager to hear preaching, but always double checked what they heard against the Word of God. To make sure the preaching was true. And mind you, their preacher was the Apostle Paul! So certainly, we all have a duty today to do the same. With any preacher or website (including this one). I strongly encourage you to go to the Bible and verify the things you read here and make sure that we are handling the Word of The Lord accurately and respectfully.

It may be overwhelming at first. Trust me, there was a time in my life when I was listening to many preachers who today I believe are without doubt wolves in sheep clothing. But it takes studying the Word and praying to God for more Biblical wisdom and discernment – so you can grow and spot false teachings easier.

So if you are confused, rejoice! That means God’s Word is starting to show you that there truly are false teachers out there. This is something The Lord Jesus Christ warned about constantly:

“And as [Jesus] sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” – Matthew 24:3-5.

Continue to pray to God to show you what is true and what is false. And Study your Bible daily. If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask. God bless you abundantly.

Joel Osteen Witchcraft and heresy?!?!?! You have got to be kidding. Sigh…OK, look, what turns me off about Joel Osteen is he is too rich for one, no “minster/preacher/priest/etc…” should be as rich as the 1%, that’s one. Two, he is overly positive he loses balance in his sermons. Life is not peaches and cream for the 95% of his audience. And there are repercussions to all action, reaction and decisions that is scientific law, not to mention, the Law of Attraction. That is why people struggle because we are imperfect beings striving or fantasizing of perfections, it gives false hope to not have some level of a pragmatic approach to Life. I firmly believe Joel Osteen means well, his message is of some form goodness that is HOPE. It is a concept that the World is losing and for that I give him a kudos. We need to be reminded of the good things that can happen for us if we just stay faithful to God and have hope. That is NOT WITCHCRAFT. The common religious masses don’t even know what true witchcraft is because its been tainted for hundreds of years and drilled into the minds of people that it is evil. Anything that liberates a person from dogma is considered evil these days, plus, Hollywood does a pretty good job of stupidly portraying the dark aspects of occultism as the only aspect of the occult. Not true. Christians destroyed most of the Ancient Religion so no one really knows for sure what Witchcraft is all about, its ignorant to think that we have all the facts when we don’t. Not to mention that Major religions have modified and converted certain aspects of paganism into their traditions but disguised it to represent something more Christianized, There is NOTHING BAD ABOUT THE SECRET, it is a psychological and spiritual methodology that can be combined with ANY RELIGION to assist people in gaining and attaining happiness, health, wealth, good relationships and peace. I believe that is what Jesus would want for us all, that is what he preached and that is what he died for. Even he was tried as a heretic… don’t forget that.

Ma’am, are you at least familiar with the Word of God, the gospel of Jesus Christ? If you are, then you would already know what the Bible teaches concerning sorcery/sorcerers, witches/witchcraft, divination/diviners, heresy/heretics. Joel Osteen and Oprah Winfrey, along with so many other “spiritualists” and “evangelists” are heretics and they preach blasphemy and heresy. It is written in the Word of God that none of these shall inherit (or enter into) the Kingdom of Heaven. Contrary to the last paragraph of your comment, the Lord Jesus Christ did not come into the world and give His precious life for us so that we can have wealth, fabulosity and good relationships. The Lord Jesus Christ came so that if we confess, repent and turn from our unrighteousness, we can have forgiveness, salvation and everlasting life through Him, and that we, together with Him, can have the promise of the inheritance of the Kingdom of God the Father. Having untold wealth and riches is not going to get a person into the Kingdom of God the Father. These so called pastors and preachers preach nothing but idolatry and idolizing money, and making monetary riches the fixation and obsession of one’s life – instead of making God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ the focus – and sitting around blindly chanting repeatedly isn’t going to bring whatever it is a person seeks into their life. Contrary to what Osteen and Winfrey preach, we DON’T have the power to affect any kind of change in our lives on our own. In the first epistle of John (Chapter 5), we are admonished to make our desires known to God the Father, and because we have faith and confidence in Him, we know that He will hear us and we, according to His will, will have the petitions that we have desired of Him. God the Father would rather we not even worry ourselves about such things, because in James 1 v.17, we are told that every good gift and every perfect gift is from above (Heaven) and comes down from the Father of lights, in whom there is no variableness or shadow of turning. That means every blessing that we receive into our lives comes from God the Father in Heaven only and not from some contrived, un-Biblical doctrine that someone handed out. Contrary to the heresy that Osteen and Winfrey preach and fixate on, God the Father told us to seek His kingdom and His righteousness, first, and when we do, we are assured that all other things will be given to us automatically. God the Father wants us to focus on Him and His righteousness, and His holiness; Osteen and Winfrey want people to fixate on everything that isn’t holy. They preach an un-Biblical doctrine that you can be your own “savior” and you have the power to bless yourself simply by visualizing and chanting, and in fact, in the heresy that they teach, I can actually see a result of people becoming depressed, ill, etc. especially if what they are seeking never materializes into their lives. I am really saddened that you linked the so called “spiritual methodology” (?) of The Secret with the Lord Jesus Christ because the Lord Jesus Christ said that whatever a person asks, in His name, God the Father will give it. Plain and simple. The Secret, on the other hand, teaches a doctrine glaringly contradictory to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The universal question that is asked “What is the purpose of man” & the answer comes from our Lord “Ye are the temple of the Living God”. Now to the words of Jesus “Unless ye eat of my flesh —-” & on hearing this many who had followed Him left Him & neither did Jesus stop them. For Lo they deny the very reason of their existence & very much largely the case today . The first cause is to know God & the only way that comes about is by The Christ through the Holy Spirit & in these days were other christs are preached like the Joel Osteen’s & their likes in the name of The Christ & where many spirits are interacted with as also in the name of the Holy Spirit. It is imperative that The Christ & the Holy Spirit are first identified , in order to God the Father. & to this there is only one way & it comes by the revelation of the Love of the Holy Spirit for the Father as also the Love of the Son for the Father, for God is Love.. The path indeed is very narrow which the Bible Prophesizes that only a few will find.

It is disturbing, sad and confusing to some to find so many leading Five fold Ministry Gifts falling for the love of money. They have strayed from the Word of God, “But seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you,” Matthew 6: 33. The Lord Jesus know what you have need of, He knows what it will take for a man or woman to stand or fall. Oftentimes, when others give into your selfish demands they do so because of being bewitched; that manipulating, controlling, and domination spirit that Opray Winfrey is not born again and those who join her are not going to speak God’s truth in love to win her over; because she is a new age goddess in her sight and has they power to win them over and out of God’s perfect will, just enough to be lukewarm. The Lord Jesus will permit you to do your will, but there are consequences that will come that are unfavorable. Revelation 3: 15-16 states, “I know thou works, that thou art neither cold nor hot, I would you to be hot or cold. So because you are lukewarm and neither cold not hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Some of our leading apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, and teachers are falling into apostasy for personal gain. They are not concerned about the soul of a person. there is judgment after death, but those who suffer with Christ will reign with Him perpetually.

Thanks for your comments. I wanted to share some passages of Scripture:

This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. – 1 Timothy 3:1-7.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. – 1 Timothy 2:12-15.

There is nothing in meyers teaching that links with osteen or any prosperity teachers..dont just soil preachers name bcus u want to win an argument. Back wat u say with scriotures and without being biased. Dont argue like scientist. Lean not on your own understanding. Let the spirit of God lead you.

Meyer talks abt the relationship with her husband in some of her books. She does not take leadership over her husband. Meyer received d calling not her husband. She was an envangelist. Why is it wrong for her to teach. The bible says your sons and daughters shall prophesy. Deborah was a woman..wasn’t she. She took no leadership over israel as I saw in an article here and likewise meyer. You have clearly used d bible against her. In d sense that she is a woman. And that is just wrong!

Preaching involves explanation whereas Prophecy does not involve explanations except saying what is given. Now the woman was found in the transgression, not the man which means satan got a certain hold on her ever since, is also to remember that the temptation was a spiritual one , so when a woman preaches , no matter how sincere she may be , satan turns it into his advantage, that is how cunning & crooked he is. For In the first place he did not dare tempt Adam, but through Eve. ’cause the commandment of God was directly given to Adam It does gives a indication of satan’s modus operandi. Now that the woman listened to the devil to the arising of the desire in her , for her sake God put in the Enmity between the serpent & the woman & further turned her desire unto her man, lest she becomes unto the serpent as his moll & be lost forever, elements of which are seen today through leaks allowed by God as a testimony unto the said.truth.

Thanks for your response. You claim that I am using the Bible against Joyce Meyer. However if you reread my comment to you, I did not interpret Scripture at all. I listed the verses below and provided no commentary. I asked how YOU interpret them. So I will ask again:

This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. – 1 Timothy 3:1-7.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. – 1 Timothy 2:12-15.

Thanks Abey. The truth is that God can use any one regardless of what you believe. You can’t decide the ways of God nor can you know it. Now I’m not saying you or B&e are wrong. Just try to understand. Man or woman are equal in His eyes. I just don’t see anything wrong for a woman to pick up her cross and follow Christ and win souls to God in so doing. You mentioned temptations..well everyone is exposed to temptations. Then again I could be wrong, but its just how I feel. God will do as he pleases..no denying that

Seems you have not understood what is been written, Go by it & not by your imaginations , the Bible does say that it was the woman that was found in the transgression & not the man, is to mean that even if the serpent had tried to tempt Adam , he would have failed, for it seems you have not understood of what it means to receive a direct commandment from God. Adam broke not the direct law but by Eve for her sake , Why do you think God put her desire unto her man, again for her sake ? Spiritual ignorance.

Spiritual ignorance wow, I did say I could be wrong…kind of harsh. I suppose you are the enlightened one. You speak so freely of wat could have been. “If adam was tempted he might not have failed” quite d imagination there. Anyways you could be right or wrong. I acknowledge my spiritual ignorance

I’m sorry abey if my response was out of line but you have to understand. I had just lost my mom, plus I was going to have to spend an extra year in d university and I couldnt tell my dad or siblings. I was lost and in deep pain. Then someone gave me a book titled “the battle belongs to the lord” by joyce meyer. Back then I had no idea who meyer was. But this book was powerful, I learned to trust God, I learned to endure, I learned so much. Joyce says in one of her books that other people can not always pray your mountains away, you have to learn to pray and learn your own bible verses. Long story short that book gave me strength. .rather the inspired words there gave me strength. Then after that book I got “the battlefield of the mind”. All her teachings based and backed up from scriptures. I have been reading most of her books till date. She’s so down to earth. Nothing links her to apostasy. Try reading her books and you will see its different. I hope you can understand why I will get so worked up when she is being condemned because she is a WOMAN and she is PREACHING. she learns things from her husband dave and shares, she even talked abt her ministering and not dave. Her husband even declares that God chose her.

The Bible does say “It was the woman that was found in the transgression & not the man ” contrary to what you stated, Is it not ? ’cause if you were so open minded as you claim you would have acknowledged it & then tried to understand the question put forward. As for Joyce, her shit may be gold , but shit is still shit(given by a vision about her), she is a woman in deep hurt who needs to overcome that , like one who happened to run after her, stated through a revelation “It is not about Jesus it is about Joyce ” to say make mountain of themselves, in the name of Scriptures. Enlightment is a term widely used in newage beliefs, Biblically it pertains to Baptism, whereas the term Knowledge Biblically refers to understanding which again comes by revelation even unto the words “My people fall because of the lack of Knowledge” As for woman preachers which the Bible forbids, no matter how beneficial it may sound (is like saying trying to save a few is to loose many) for reasons already stated, its proof is seen today to the many churches like Anglican , its Episcopals etc. most of it headed by women become complacent, falling & still falling into Agendas unto its marker “Sodom” the very Antithesis come against the basic structure of the Family & against God ’cause this structure is again based on the first Holy family of God ( if you understand what it is or what it means). This clearly shows how the devil by these has turned it into his advantage as earlier mentioned. You can either acknowledge this Biblical truth, for seeing is believing or continue to be blinded by the devil , as a rebellious one, for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

The Peshitta Bible uses the word “Baptism” as the translation from the Aramaic manuscripts instead of the word “Enlightment” used in versions like the KJV. . Thanks for helping bring about up a valid theological question to the event at Eden, as stated.

For the last time , to an unwise & hasty action- To your Quote & As the one here says -Adam transgressed the law & it does appear so according to the Biblical narration but then I repeat the question ” Why does then the Bible say “It was the woman that was found in the transgression & not the man” ???

Now you are taking this personal and deviating from the actual matter. Well from all you have said so far, are you implying joyce meyer is doing the wrong thing byvpreaching? Simple question now answer and end it… a simple yes or no would suffice.

I call myself a Christian but yet I keep sinning. I’m a hypocrite, I’ve stumbled so much. I hate that I love fornicating. I hate that due to my lusts I’ve caused others to also sin. I wish I could follow Jesus and conquer this sin. It weighs me down. I’m not serving God in Spirit and in Truth. I repent and stumble again. God deserves better than what I’m giving him

To sin is to be human and to err is to be still learning. We are all humans and we never stop learning or developing even when we think we’re not. The point of making mistakes is to learn from them and hopefully be careful about making similar mistakes in the future. Life is a learning experience, don’t be ashamed about making mistakes just try to learn from them and try your best to do better in the future. We all make mistakes and we all hope that we don’t make too many big ones yet we all do. It’s just a part of being human, learning and growing, trying new things making bad choices hanging with the wrong crowd its all just a part of life.

To the wisdom by the commandment of God in Eden “Take not the fruit of the tree of Good & Evil,” is but to know clearly as to what is good & what is evil without INDULGING in it , for by keeping the Commandment of God against the beguiling devil would have led to developing what is called “The Power of Resistance” spiritually which would have led to the Tree of Life unto its fruit & by it would clearly distinguish Good from Evil just the Angels of God are, off the tree of Life, who will come to separate the wheat from the chaff for they are clearly able to distinguish the Good from the Evil is proof itself , whereas man by his indulgence calls good as evil & evil as good unto the delusion saying, there is no absolute truth

Hugo, Have you declared that you are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus? Even when we sin we are righteous, because it is not our own righteousness but the Righteousness of God through Christ Jesus. We did nothing to gain or merit salvation, it is all about what God gave us through the Cross of Jesus.. Your sins, ALL OF THEM, PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE have already been forgiven. Jesus took them to the Cross with Him. When we abide in Him, as believers, our sins are not counted against us because Jesus already knew about them because He took them to the Cross. You sound as if you are under severe condemnation due to the fact that you are under wrong teaching. We are no longer under the curse of the Law, we are the REDEEMED and the Bible instructs us to say so. Let the Redeemed of the Lord say so! Try this, when you are in the very act of sin, say “I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus! what you are saying is the truth in spite of your sin. You will one day, without even realizing it find the sin/addiction to which you are bound releasing its hold on you. Words spoken are important, not the way they are being discussed in this blog. Sharing your pain with the Lord is not something that will cause your suffering to become worse. He is a friend that sticks closer than a brother. We must become intimate with Our Savior and not just familiar with Him. As we learn of His unfathomable Love for us and increase in the knowledge of that Love, we will be set free from every bondage that keeps us bound. Try this link for yourself, the messages are Biblical and uplifting yet right on. He has had much criticism because he preaches the truth however, the fruit of his ministry is credible. His daily devotions unveil the Love of God through Christ Jesus Our Lord. josephprince.org

Grace through Faith, which faith has works , except that the works be in the Spirit, for the Spirit is to works . So when one believes in the Lord Jesus, the one is saved, except that the belief be in the Spirit, in other words it is the Holy Spirit that witnesses/declares unto God ones belief in Christ & the Spirit is the Spirit of Truth & does not lie , whereas man is a liar. So no monkey businesses. Pick up your crosses daily & follow me so as to be my disciples, without which you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. & this happens when follows in spirit the two commandments 1) Love thy God 2) Love thy Brethren, proved by his saints as mentioned in Revelations, for by these two commandments has all of ones own cross contained in this. Moreover these two commandments fulfills all of the OT Law & Prophets , fulfill means not taken away but established in the Spirit & truth as was originally intended by God. For nothing which God brought about is taken away(the leaven of the saducees) except it be established in the Spirit & Truth of it. This sums up the whole of the Gospel truth, except that this is not preached by ear pleasers, for itching ears hate truth, but themselves. The very reason why Christians are seen falling away, again Prophesied from of ‘ole.

We did nothing to gain Salvation and we can do nothing to loose it or fall out of fellowship with God. Preaching the Law negates the Gospel. Law is about self righteousness, Grace is about the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Man is prideful and performance oriented. It is against the nature of man to accept Grace. Grace (unmerited favor) is unnatural. We have been taught from childhood that when we do good, we receive good things, when we do bad, we receive punishment and bad things. Grace is just the reverse, we receive God’s favor when we deserve punishment and death. It is not about what we do but about what Jesus did at the Cross. Yes, there are ministries who you say tickle ears, well my friend they are not the ministers who preach the message of God’s Love and Grace. I sat under that erroneous mixture teaching for over 45 years and was never free until the real message of Jesus Christ and His Love was preached to us. We must take our eyes off ourselves and keep them on Jesus, the one who died for us so we could have fellowship with Our Father in Heaven through Him. The Law keeps us focused on self and our effort, Grace keeps us focused on Jesus Christ and what He has done for us! It is difficult to receive Grace because self is not in it, its all about Jesus! The more we realize the Love the Father has for us through Jesus Christ the more sanctified we become through the cleansing and washing of the Word! I have witnessed and experienced life changing growth through the preaching of Grace, released from condemnation and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ. I understand the concern for a message such as this, however, it is something the Holy Spirit has to bear witness in your spirit, then you will be free at last.

I have sister who has been running behind Oprah and Will Smith and the lot of them. She now tells me I need to read all sorts of books, the secret, the alchemist, and I already know from my own experiences that this is nothing but witchcraft.

REVELATION 20: 4 People simply have not been reading their Bibles! (KJV) For if they had then they would know what the scriptures say! For instance,we have all been told that no one is perfect? well, what does Jesus the Christ of Nazareth say about this topic? I’ll tell you, ” Be ye therefore perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.” UNQUOTE Matthew 5:48 There is a difference between making mistakes and sinning! As the apostle Paul wrote, ” for we are complete in Christ Jesus ” REVELATION 18 – ,…” Come out of her , my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye recieve not of her plaques.” >>>>>>> WAKE UP <<<<<<<

‘Not my will but yours be done” as Jesus sought the Will of the Father for him & the answer was quiet clear- The Cross. II is but to understand that the Cross is the suffering of the Father himself that was relayed through the Son unto the Biblical words “God is long suffering” . Now this suffering of the Father itself arose out of His love to the words “For God so loved the world- that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever might believe in him (accepting that Love) shall have eternal life”. Which goes by the words “Pick up your crosses & follow me” to Equate with him unto the Father. Sin cannot withstand suffering, hence these words become a rock of offense to ear pleasers & itching ears like Joel osteen’s alien to protestantism & even rarely among the Catholics, of the day, floating the Apostasy .

All human beings are flawed(imperfect) and so are you B & E, just like Joel Osteen and me and everyone else on this website and all others. To say Joel Osteen is an apostate was your first mistake. Your second mistake was to say things like; “So we do not have to fear telling someone they seem sick if they are hacking up a storm. They probably are sick and they should get some soup, juices and cold medicine”. And thirdly for assuming that if you don’t quote scripture or refer everything back to the Word all the time(like you expect of Joel here), then you are not preaching a true Gospel is a lie. True Christians and true men of God have the Holy Spirit who marks them as Children of God and I can assure you, Joel Osteen has the Holy Spirit. Will he make mistakes? Yes, sadly on a public platform such as Oprah’s Network but does that mean he’s not preaching the true Gospel? No, that’s not true. And what about you? Will you make mistakes? Yes you will and you just did the very thing you’re condemning Pastor Joel for when you did not speak of Jesus as the healer but talked of medication. A true Christian (with the Holy Spirit) will not try to pull down another Christian or Man of God based on thoughts, theories, or even scripture alone UNLESS the HOLY SPIRIT(God) told him to. Why? Because the pharisees though they knew scripture did not know God because they based everything on scripture without the revelation of God, being Anti-Christ. That is why they could not and did not believe in Jesus. They spent all their days trying to use scripture against Jesus, THE WORD himself so they could find basis on which to accuse him and find fault with his teachings. Back to your mistakes. The second one. Jesus Christ never confessed evil or darkness in any situation of illness, demons or death. When someone was ill he said, “You are healed” or “Your faith has healed you.” And when someone was demon-possessed he never said you are demon-possessed but instead he commanded the evil spirit to come out. AND…when someone was dead he said he was “sleeping.” God never confesses situations as bad or negative because He knows the power of words. That is what I Am is all about. He IS all things good. What you confess you are, you become. What you confess is, becomes.That is where Joel Osteen is coming from-speaking positive over negative situations. Now you say people must confess that others are ill? And yet scripture speaks of the power of your tongue(confession, declaration, affirmation etc) when it says: “death and life are in the power of your tongue and those who love it will eat its fruit [Proverbs18:21]. Or did you miss that scripture?Or just the interpretation of it?You go on to say those people must drink medication for their illness. Is that also scriptural? The bible says “By his stripes we are healed”. I am trying to show you that like you, he made a mistake. But that does not make him an apostate since your mistakes do not make you one either or do they?[Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use it will be measured to you”.[Matthew 7:1-2] Encouragement is a gift. He has the gift of encouragement and he always talks about God in his sermons but today because he was speaking of his book “I Am” it’s a problem? Every disciple in the bible has made a mistake, many even. For example, the time Peter denied Jesus three times. Because the reality is no one is perfect except God. It is Christ who has made us perfect (holy and righteous) before God not because of anything we have done but because of what HE has done. So stop condemning a man of God for being a flawed human being like all of us. Sometimes, Christians apply wisdom from the Holy Spirit to answer questions. Jesus Christ is the Word but even he did not quote scripture every single tim he spoke. My question to you would be. Did God ask you to “expose” Joel Osteen or TD Jakes as being “New Age” preachers? If not…then don’t. For you will find yourself fighting against God. I pray that the Holy Spirits guides you into all truths.

Admittedly, I’ve never read a book or watchd a tv show of this man, but my wife has, and she has a pretty good eye catching false teachers and teachings. She agrees that he may not be a gifted evangelist but he seems to have the gift of encouragement with his positivity message (all things are possible to those who believe, and we are to live an abundant life in Christ….type stuff).

Anyhow, I am very aware that improperly judging people can be detrimental to my health, (Matt 5) so I will say nothing and keep reading…..both sides.

Have m none of you opened a concordance? Yahshua Messiah IS NOT THE WORD! YAHWEH IS. John 1:14, the word ‘was’ is not in the Greek texts. This is an “English addition” to justify a pagan trinity. The Greek word is “Ginomai,” and means “generated, or made.” The Word (Yahweh) MADE FLESH (sarx, a carnal individual – see Romans 8) which was Yahshua, which dwelt among us……and we beheld His (the created, sarx) glory, as that glory of the only begotten Son. Yahweh The Creator is THE WORD, not Yahshua.

Thanks for your comments. I would like to address your points with Scripture:

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – John 1:17.

This is a very clear statement from Scripture. No man has ever seen God the Father, except for The Lord Jesus Christ.

Now let’s go back to the Old Testament for references to “the Word.”

Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. 7 But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. 8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord. 9 Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. 10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant. – Jeremiah 1:4-10.

Jeremiah not only saw The Word, The Word (who is God) physically touched his mouth. So who was he speaking with? God the Father? Of course not – because we know that no man has ever seen God the Father, much less touched Him. Jeremiah was speaking with Jesus. I welcome your thoughts on these passages. God bless. -B&E

The biggest problem I see is first of all, what Joel is teaching and what the New Age is teaching are so close that the differences are barely discernable. Oprah teaches New Age/New Spirituality/occult stuff and promotes those who teach it as well. She bought a THOUSAND New Age books and passed them out to her audience.

By Joel appearing on the show, he gives the appearance that he supports and believes in her teachings. He lends credibility to Oprah and her show by appearing there, and that in turn makes it appear that Christianity is in line with New Age/New Spirituality teachings. By him teaching something so close to the New Age/New Spirituality/occult teaching, even though he clarified “it’s not magic” etc., he is STILL making it appear that he supports and condones whatever Oprah teaches on her show. And this will confuse people into thinking that GOD condones Oprah’s teachings. This in turn leads to them dabbling in, reading about, and accepting a lot of the teachings that she promotes.

We are not to have ANYTHING to do with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather to reprove them. Either Joel Osteen is extremely ignorant of what Oprah teaches and promotes on her show, and totally lacking in discernment, or he is part of the conspiracy to blend Christianity in with New Age/New Spirituality/Hinduism/Bhuddism etc.

As a Pastor, he should be guarding the flock from wolves, and also be feeding them a full diet of the Word of God. Instead he acts as a cheerleader.. he is in the wrong profession.

We need to pray for all of these people.. the people who attend the shows, and who end up reading the New Age books etc., for Oprah, for Joel, and for everyone out there caught up in these deceptions. Those who want the Truth will get the Truth in the end as we pray and do our part. We ALSO need to pray that the Lord will cause the truth to come out as to which pastors are apostacizing and which are simply ignorant and lacking in discernment. And we need to pray that those who are ignorant are enlightened as to the dangers of Oprah and the teachings she and others are promoting.

proverbs- says a lot about speaking either negitive or positive. If you look in the bible it does mention how the imagination of men, even evil men, can succeed, and how much more do you think we can do through Christ ? The bible tells me I can do All things through him who streagthens me, if I only had a great imagination. Back to words, the power of life and death is in the tongue is only one example. I have watched the promise before and while these people have merely a concept of what the bible does tell us, it does indeed leave out the obvious. We most importantly need to be saved through Christ Jesus, seek his kingdom and righteousness first, know what exactly what the bible says who we are in Christ, what he gave us, PROVERBS says forget not all his benefits,,,, what benefits? we should really know what our bible actually tells us. Joel was teaching a basic bible lesson on this interview , that many Christians are not aware of.

i think this article sucks and i pray that God has mercy on your soul you probably not a Christian you are a minister of satan and i rebuke you in the name of Jesus i pray that God opens your eyes to the mystery of the Gospel of Christ everything you said in this article is of the devil you a LIAR and i pray that God shuts this website down in the name of Jesus

What Joel Osteen and other apostate pastors preach is so scary. If a Christian believes it and pratice it, they will be left behind in the Great Tribulation to face the Wrath of Antichrist and will have to endure resisting the Mark in order to be saved. It is too hard. It is easier to believe on Christ NOW and obey sound biblical doctrine looking for Jesus Christ in the blessed hope of the Rapture. In the meantime watch and pray and do the will of God in the meantime.

I do not get the impression, nor do I think that J. Osteen KNOWS the Lord Jesus on a personal daily basis, 24/7. I think he thinks “money” constantly and runs a large church exactly like a secular corporation or business. The other night I had the TBN channel on because of a song that was playing, then soon after Osteen was on and he used the word “power” I think nearly 40 times in one minute. I had to change the channel right away. Talk about repetition! Here’s a recommendation, type Keith Green in a youtube search, you’ll find the OPPOSITE of Osteen.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (NIV)

Another question to ask is how many dishes does Osteen wash in any given week or month. Does he ever lift anything? Does he ever actually ever serve anyone?

Matt. 23:5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteriesa wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others. (NIV)

Matt. 22:11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless. 13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (NIV)

If you are personally clothed with Christ’s righteousness then you have wedding clothes. If you’re trying to get by on your own righteousness, then you DO NOT have wedding clothes.

I honestly don’t believe any of this crap am reading,, The problem is that the preachers of this times are not preaching or going into details in regard to the End Times that we read in the books of Joshua, Kings, Joel, Exodus, Malachi etc.. I believe they are avoiding this details so that people dont get scared and walk away from their charches which is soooooo wrong..

Whoever you are I think what your doing is judgemental and that is a big no no in the bible!! I listen to Joel osteen and he preaches nothing but the bible! Everything he preaches he backs up with scripture! For you to say he’s practicing witchcraft I think is unforgivable, to assassinate ones character like that! Whose the real witch here! Just saying the things your accusing this man of! What your saying about this man comes from hate! God bless you!

I started following Joel after watching his teaching on honoring each other (which I thought was great). I’ve since stopped watching him. I do not not wish to judge him, but I do believe that the “Name it Claim it” doctrine he’s now teaching is dangerous. I fear for new Christians who are following his words before being grounded in the bible. You can faithfully claim wealth, health and happiness in Jesus’ name and still end up broke, sick and full of sorrow. When this does happen many lose there faith and in the end lose their soul. Comfort is the goal of our flesh. God has but one goal for us. The salvation of our souls by transforming us into the image of His son. For some sinners like Paul this transformation can only be done through suffering. Joel is teaching that prosperity is the goal of Christianity. It is not! This is the only goal that matters: One glorious day the suffering will end, Christ will lift you out of the dirt and say, “Well done, good and faithful servant. Now enter into your rest”.

The devil backed everything up with scripture too. Jesus Christ set him straight. “Man does not live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God. You shall not test the Lord your God and, You shall worship The Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.”

Joel Osteen and Oprah have both proven that they do not know The Lord Jesus Christ, for if they did, they would be doing the will of God, which is to believe Jesus Christ concerning the penalty of sin, repentance and eternal salvation in Christ Alone.

Joel and Oprah, do not, and never have known the will of God because they do not want to ‘do’ the will of God, which is to believe the One whom God sent into the world to testify to these things.

In the end, Joel and Oprah will hear Jesus Christ say to them, “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, BUT ONLY THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.”

If we do not want to do the will of God, we will never find out whether the things Jesus Christ said, is true. It’s that simple. This is precisely how Jesus Christ sat the Pharisees on their backsides. If the Pharisees truly had knowledge and revelation of the will of God, they would have believed Jesus’ teachings came from the Father who sent Him and acknowledged Him as The Prophesied Messiah. The very fact that they didn’t believe Jesus, was evidence that the Pharisees did not have the first clue concerning the many prophecies which were being fulfilled right in front of their very eyes.

This is what makes Joel and Oprah nothing more than modern day Pharisees. They do not Know the will of God because they refuse to DO the will of God.

To me, y’all have missed the main message entirely and waste precious moments of your lives debating what the bible clearly says can’t be debated!

Psa 111:10 “THE FEAR OF THE LORD [YAHWEY] IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM: a good understanding have all they that do His commandments: His praise endureth for ever.”

Pro_8:11 “For WISDOM is better than rubies [riches; worldly endeavors]; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.”

Mat_11:19 Jesus said, “The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. BUT WISDOM [FROM YAHWEY ONLY] IS JUSTIFIED OF HER CHILDREN.”

“FEAR” above… meaning “reverence”, “respect”, “acknowledgement”, “submission…” All this is summed up by:

There IS NO Challenge to Joel Osteen’s Theology and preaching. I pray in Jesus’ Name Lord Please dull the ears of those that listen to Him and depart from his boring apostacy. Put in those people again a hunger for the Pure Word Of God to live Holy and find ALL meaning and purpose alone in Christ.

Les: Only the Word of God (God’s Promises) is allowed to confess out of our mouths occasionally with the Holy Spirit and you must have Him first in your lives ahead. Self-composed words that do not have with God Promises to Do (magic, occultism, incantation, curse) is totally forbidden by God! If you do it anyway so they curse in reality itself more in the long term because of so and reap the law, someone adds still blame on God for what you have been warned and yet given a damn, it’s much worse than normal madness to do something like﻿ Vis mindre

Only the Word of God (God’s Promises) is allowed to confess out of our mouths occasionally with the Holy Spirit and you must have Him first in your lives ahead. Self-composed words that do not have with God Promises to Do (magic, occultism, incantation, curse) is totally forbidden by God! If you do it anyway so they curse in reality itself more in the long term because of so and reap the law, someone adds still blame on God for what you have been warned and yet given a damn, it’s much worse than normal madness to do something like﻿ Vis mindre

Richness you don’t have to fear for everyone because there is only one judge and that is almighty God! It is between Joel and God! Simple! And he doesn’t say to pray for riches, he sez if you honor and come into agreement with God ,blessings will chase you down, that’s in the bible! He also preaches that you must have the same attitude whether your going through bad or good times! That is true faith! There are many things you can focus on in the bible sometimes it can be confusing, he just chooses to focus on the positives but it’s all rooted from the bible! He’s not perfect and he admits to that and he also sez he doesn’t understand it all, but who does. In the end we can find fault in ANYONE who preaches if that’s all you are which is a faultfinder! We all have our own personal relationships with Jesus so we all have to be accountable for our own actions, and not put it on Joel if something bad happens. Be Happy and praise God!

Oh and one more thing. It takes the HOLY SPIRIT to know who real men of God and false ones are. No theory, feeling, thought or opinion can accurately say who is or is not teaching the right doctrine especially if they aren’t blatantly denying Christ. And only when God tells you who is and who isn’t and actually tells you to expose them can you say such things. Jesus knew the pharisees did not love God, were from the devil their father and were anti-Christ because He is God. He did not cite a theory or website to prove that. So all of you calling Pastor Joel Osteen this or that. Where did you get all that? I’m just saying. Think on these things. I’d rather not watch a man of God if I can’t say for sure where they stand than call them names. But if the Holy Spirit approves, then i watch and listen to his sermons. It’s that simple. Pray and wait on God to show or tell you the truth than speak from your own mind.

Dear website owner, I find it interesting that you did not publish my e-letter, sent to you in early July, Based on many of the previous posts, I assumed this was an open forum for all viewpoints. Perhaps I was wrong. While I acknowledge your right to dictate what is posted on your personal site/blog, I also believe it very unhelpful to general discussion if the majority of the points of view that are posted are those which the majority of your readers/commenters would presumably agree with,(My personal opinion based in all the posts which I read) This type of censorship only does harm. I urge you to reconsider posting my letter and others like it. I have no interest in arguing or debating anyone. In fact, I broke my own rule in posting such a letter to your site. My hope was that by share my experience both within and without Christianity, someone may glean information or a new point of view which would be helpful to them.

Romans 3;23- why are we Christians even having this convo? 2 Tim 3;5 – the scripture is clear on this matter. (have nothing to do with such people)

as I read most of these comments…. most I say are mans perspective(this is the new age religion) even the elect will fall to this teaching. God has clearly warned us of these types of false teachings. yet, man has found some common ground with them. its evident to me(comments above) that religion is the main theme here not God…….

If we all took the time to pray, fast and study the word, clowns like Oprah and Olsteen would never even be in the discussion. Because, even Christians get lazy, we find ourselves falling prey to Satan’s lapdogs.

Here’s a few things to chew on straight out a book called the Bible, I know Oprah and Joel tend to use other sources but here’s my contribution regardless;

Matthew 11:28-30 King James Version (KJV)

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

***Because “I am” tired, sore, sick and maybe even fed up, I can rest assured that the one true; “I AM” (Exodus 3:14) will bring relief.

Philippians 4:6-8 King James Version (KJV)

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

***Regardless of what my needs are, and maybe I don’t even know at the time, all I have to do is bring them to God and turn them over to him. I don’t need to ever do anything else because God is trustworthy even though he knows I am not.

Psalm the entire 37th chapter

***If that don’t get ya stirred up like nobody’s business I don’t know what will, perhaps you should go back to Joel and Oprah!! I mean come on man, according to Psalm 37, I don’t even gotta lift a finger because I know God is taking care of everything.

Exodus 3:14. I AM is the sacred name of YHWH, the name He said He is to to be called for all time, His title for all ages.

The “Jews” has sought to silence that, and they have convinced many to follow there lead. It is a fascinating study. They turned something that YHWH said to do into a sin through their traditions, which is one of the reasons they were so angry when Yahushua said it. John 8:58.

So every time someone invokes “I am” in the way mentioned above they are, in essence, breaking the first three commandments, which of course Satan just loves. Worth thinking about.

The present “I AM” can be traced to a certain Radically Feminised hindu cult, come out of the ancient ‘Human sacrifice & TEMPLE PROSTITUTION ” , the OM cult, reflected by the OM magazine. OM is but the sound of Evolution , their god, the worship of the created instead of the Creator.

To the fall at Eden, God instituted the corrections & unto the woman said He rightfully “Your desire shall be to your husband(she who was made from.him) & he shall rule over you” Lest she who listened to the serpent’s Lie, desire after him & be lost forever. To this it seems the devil comes through hollywood minds as the Avatar in the “Shape of Water” grabbing the woman & snatching an Oscar.

Thanks for you time in keeping us on the ‘narrow path ‘.. I have never felt comfortable with his teachings and lost friends by stating he is not teaching the bible , he is a progressive Christian. Many Christians do not like the Bible and that scares me

I do not believe that we should seek to attain things without or outside the will of God.. however scripture does say that life and death are in the power of the tongue and those who indulge in it shall reap either life or death. Proverbs 18:21 (Matthew 12:37). Not saying that what they are preaching is complete truth but how we speak positively or negatively is a biblical principle. We can speak blessings or curses over ourselves and others.