Obama wants things to umm umm, yah change, thats it, things to change..... to what we dont have a clue.

The pdf and issues link that was posted is way too long to read. Let me summarize for you instead brett:

Obama Change = socialization of America

Europe should *love* us afterwards!

Well you can't have it both ways. Either Obama's "change" is vague and therefore appropriate for snarky drive-by posts or it's specific but not something you agree with. One contributes to discussion on an adult level and the other doesn't.

Obama wants things to umm umm, yah change, thats it, things to change..... to what we dont have a clue.

The pdf and issues link that was posted is way too long to read. Let me summarize for you instead brett:

Obama Change = socialization of America

Europe should *love* us afterwards!

Well you can't have it both ways. Either Obama's "change" is vague and therefore appropriate for snarky drive-by posts or it's specific but not something you agree with. One contributes to discussion on an adult level and the other doesn't.

Sure I can have it both ways. His promises are vague and broad with little specifics, but the concepts that drive them are outright socialism.

The pdf and issues link that was posted is way too long to read. Let me summarize for you instead brett:

Obama Change = socialization of America

Casual dismissal of complex and nuanced policy ideas with a backhanded catchphrase? That reminds me of something....

-Autistic Angel

From Obama's website:

Quote

Enact a Windfall Profits Tax to Provide a $1,000 Emergency Energy Rebate to American Families:Barack Obama will enact a windfall profits tax on excessive oil company profits to give American families an immediate $1,000 emergency energy rebate to help families pay rising bills. This relief would be a down payment on Obama's long-term plan to provide middle-class families with at least $1,000 per year in permanent tax relief.

Sounds a bit like a socalist policy to me, one that's neither complex or nuanced.

Without defining the term "economic interventionism", you're being as intellectually lazy as the people who automatically equate Bush's various domestic surveillance measures with fascism.

Nothing Obama's proposing is socialist except by the hyperbolic standards of right-wing talk radio loons who know that they can use the phrase to scare credulous followers into repeating it. (And, of course, by your logic, a windfall profits tax would make Sarah Palin a socialist as well. Quelle horreur!)

Without defining the term "economic interventionism", you're being as intellectually lazy as the people who automatically equate Bush's various domestic surveillance measures with fascism.

Nothing Obama's proposing is socialist except by the hyperbolic standards of right-wing talk radio loons who know that they can use the phrase to scare credulous followers into repeating it. (And, of course, by your logic, a windfall profits tax would make Sarah Palin a socialist as well. Quelle horreur!)

If you're questioning if I know what socalism stands for, shouldn't you know what economic interventionism is, since you seem to know everything?

You're painting with a ludicrously large brush; the phrase "economic interventionism" encompasses things that you would probably be in favor of. For example, ahem, patent and copyright law. Are those socialist? Is the minimum wage socialist? Antitrust laws? SEC regulations prohibiting insider trading? State intervention is a given in any capitalist society because capitalism rests on certain assumptions (contract enforcement!) that have to be defended/mandated by some authority.

All you've clarified so far is that Sarah Palin has, indeed, signed into law a "socialist policy," but Barack Obama has not, as he has no executive experience. Well done.

edit:

Oh, and I can't believe I forgot to bring current events into this - El Presidente just took over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac today. Oh noes, socialism!

income redistribution isnt necessarily socialist. in fact if you read many of the early economic thinkers, a general parity of income was almost a prerequisite for capitalism to deliver on its promises of successfully allocating resources and responding efficiently to consumer demand

also if the economists of the early - mid 20th century were to look at the us of the last fifty to sixty years, theyd say we were already and had for quite some time BEEN socialist - so i can see why its thrown around so much

that said the us could do far worse than the democratic socialism of say the scandinavian countries. they even operate with an enormous private sector. and one of the largest and most visible parts of our country is already socialist - the military. why are we so eager to expand on that aspect which is absolutely and undeniably socialist by any definition of the word?

People who scream about how horrible and socialist a $1000 dollar tax break for the middle class would be have never had to sit back and have to decide whether to pay a bill or eat for a day or two. It must be hard to see us working folk down here with their nose way up there....

People who scream about how horrible and socialist a $1000 dollar tax break for the middle class would be have never had to sit back and have to decide whether to pay a bill or eat for a day or two. It must be hard to see us working folk down here with their nose way up there....

I have no problem with tax cuts for EVERYONE, but it seems what Obama and the dems want to is tax the 'rich' more and more and more to pay for everything the want, including the tax cuts for the middle class. Why not actually try and cut spending to help everyone pay lower taxes. Stop this class warfare bs.

The pdf and issues link that was posted is way too long to read. Let me summarize for you instead brett:

Obama Change = socialization of America

Casual dismissal of complex and nuanced policy ideas with a backhanded catchphrase? That reminds me of something....

-Autistic Angel

From Obama's website:

Quote

Enact a Windfall Profits Tax to Provide a $1,000 Emergency Energy Rebate to American Families:Barack Obama will enact a windfall profits tax on excessive oil company profits to give American families an immediate $1,000 emergency energy rebate to help families pay rising bills. This relief would be a down payment on Obama's long-term plan to provide middle-class families with at least $1,000 per year in permanent tax relief.

Sounds a bit like a socalist policy to me, one that's neither complex or nuanced.

And if that constituted the entirety of Barack Obama's plan for change, then msduncan might have a point.

It doesn't. Let's take a look at some of the other policy positions he lumped into the category of "socialism of America."

Quote from: Barack Obama's Website

Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.

Quote from: Barack Obama's Website

Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Up Companies: Barack Obama will eliminate all capital gains taxes on start-up and small businesses to encourage innovation and job creation. Obama will also support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in America. Self-employed small business owners pay both the employee and the employer side of the payroll tax, and this measure will reduce the burdens of this double taxation.

Quote from: Barack Obama's Website

Create a Universal Mortgage Credit: Obama will create a 10 percent universal mortgage credit to provide homeowners who do not itemize tax relief. This credit will provide an average of $500 to 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year.

Are all tax cuts socialist, or only those aimed at smaller companies and the lower rungs on the economic ladder?

Quote from: Barack Obama's Website

Reinstate PAYGO Rules: Obama believes that a critical step in restoring fiscal discipline is enforcing pay-as-you-go (PAYGO) budgeting rules which require new spending commitments or tax changes to be paid for by cuts to other programs or new revenue.

Quote from: Barack Obama's Website

Cut Pork Barrel Spending: Obama introduced and passed bipartisan legislation that would require more disclosure and transparency for special-interest earmarks. Obama believes that spending that cannot withstand public scrutiny cannot be justified. Obama will slash earmarks to no greater than year 2001 levels and ensure all spending decisions are open to the public.

Quote from: Barack Obama's Website

End Wasteful Government Spending: Obama will stop funding wasteful, obsolete federal government programs that make no financial sense. Obama has called for an end to subsidies for oil and gas companies that are enjoying record profits, as well as the elimination of subsidies to the private student loan industry which has repeatedly used unethical business practices. Obama will also tackle wasteful spending in the Medicare program.

This sounds a lot like things the Republicans have been discussing for years, yet all of these problems ballooned *tremendously* under their leadership. Even as she campaigns on a platform of change and reform, Sarah Palin's own record in Wasilla was an unbroken streak of massive earmarks and even greater spending that drove her small town into heavy debt.

Is eliminating wasteful spending a socialist proposition, and if so, is that why Republicans do the exact opposite?

Quote from: Barack Obama's Website

Reform No Child Left Behind: Obama will reform NCLB, which starts by funding the law. Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests. He will improve the assessments used to track student progress to measure readiness for college and the workplace and improve student learning in a timely, individualized manner. Obama will also improve NCLB's accountability system so that we are supporting schools that need improvement, rather than punishing them.

Republicans used to campaign on ending unfunded mandates and improving our public schools, but once they stepped into power, they enacted an unfunded federal education policy that will "improve" underperforming schools by cutting their funding. Furthermore, the definition of "underperforming" changes each year, requiring schools to produce higher test results every year even as the financial burden of administrating NCLB eats into their budget for additional staff and educational programs.

Does seeking to reform a badly broken law that's slowly strangling our school systems qualify as socialism?

Barack Obama's platform of Change goes on for pages and pages. Whether you agree with his proposals or not, msduncan's decision to respond to the entire thing with, "Too long, didn't read -- Obama = Socialism" was premature at best.

Quote from: brettmcd

Stop this class warfare bs.

Once again: I've noticed that whenever a company fires its workers and moves operations overseas and uses the extra money to award its upper echelons massive bonuses, that's "capitalism," but if anybody else complains about it, it's "class warfare."