The Food Forum's Evil Twin. Trying to lose weight or get in shape? Tips, encouragement, status reports, and so forth go here.Disclaimer: Unless otherwise stated, we are not health professionals. Take advice with salt.

In terms of stationary equipment that serves a cardiovascular function, might I suggest an ergo (rowing machine)? Browsing prices quickly they're comparable, and rowing has the same benefit of biking in the low impact category, but also provides exercise to a wider range of muscles instead of just legs. Ideally you should get whatever you'll actually use, but if you're indifferent its worth a...

spin.

The time and seasons go on, but all the rhymes and reasons are wrongI know I'll discover after its all said and done I should've been a nun.

roband wrote:Maybe I could put whatever I get in the garage anyway, that would give a bit more space...

Back in the day my pop had a rowing machine, and I can attest that not only was its footprint not any larger than an exercise bike's, but it was easily light enough to pick up and stick in a closet when you were not using it. So, unlike a bike, you don't really need to permanently budget part of a room for it. Just put it down in the middle of the room (in front of a tv or whatever - or, heck, even outside) when you want to use it, then stash it and reclaim that space when you're done.

Haha. Induction was last Friday, went to the gym for first session the next day.

Warmed up with 1.5k walk, not fast but not slow. Did some sets of leg extensions, curls and presses. Did a little upper body work (I don't remember the names of the machines). Tried to go on the cross-trainer (I have a bad knee and have been told not to run on the treadmill) but couldn't get the hang of the rhythm. So gave up. Finished with 2.5k on the bike.

Then all this week I've been working on call, 9-5 in the office and 24 hour cover outside of that. The whole time I've been itching to get back into the gym.

If I may, part of the problem was your goal(s), or lack thereof. You had one that was very well defined (that 10 mile walk), but once that was over you wanted some grandoise and not-very-concise changes to occur. "Lose weight, get fittier, eat healthier" has no metric, so progression and acquisition were/are a lot less likely.

You'll also notice that after that walk your desire to change much also abruptly halted. Coincidence? I think not.

If you still want to lose weight, how much would you like to lose? By when? How much would you need to lose, per week, to attain that goal? By answering these questions you break down your long term goal into a series of very small and very measurable steps. Progress is its own reward, and will help reinforce the discipline (not motivation) you need to keep it up.

Same thing for getting fitter. What does that even mean? Cardiovascular capacity? Eventually do a 5k without stopping to walk? How far can you run without stopping to walk right now? Sprinting a 400m in less than a minute? What's your current 400m time? Maybe muscular strength? Being able to lift XX kg up and down Y times? How much are you lifting right now? What you can do from week to week to get from your current position towards your final goal?

Moreso for eating healthily. You need to define what that means. Within your caloric budget, complete with Z grams of protein/fiber? Containing your RDA of all vitamins and minerals? What are you currently eating? Within what you're currently eating, some of it's worth keeping, some of it needs to be replaced, and some of it needs to be reduced in quantity, all to make way for things that work towards this goal. Can you make one food substitution a week?

There's also the potential problem of perfectionism and information paralysis -- it's something a lot of people run into, dunno if you got stricken with it or not. Wherein they'll want to make sure everything is properly aligned before executing a change, when really they burn so much time in the process. Tackle the things you're aware of now, and as you slowly gain information on other aspects, incorporate those as you go.

It's awesome that you hopped into the gym, and as other people have suggested -- keep a log. Unless you have an end goal in mind, "improve" should suffice. It doesn't matter what you're lifting now, what matters is how much you lift next time you do the same thing. Hopefully it's more -- either higher resistance or more reps or something. But it'll help keep track of what you did lift for, and for how many reps so you can clearly go back and go "holy shit, this is awesome." 2.5k on the bike is great. How long did that take you? At what resistance?

On the same token, feel free to take some pictures of yourself. As you change from day to day you'll hardly notice, but after a few months you can look back on the old pics and again have a wonderful "holy shit" moment.

The time and seasons go on, but all the rhymes and reasons are wrongI know I'll discover after its all said and done I should've been a nun.

If I may, part of the problem was your goal(s), or lack thereof. You had one that was very well defined (that 10 mile walk), but once that was over you wanted some grandoise and not-very-concise changes to occur. "Lose weight, get fittier, eat healthier" has no metric, so progression and acquisition were/are a lot less likely.

You certainly may. And you're correct, I can see that now. To be honest, my goals were poorly defined because I knew they'd be poorly executed, I think. Things are different (although not necessarily better) this time around.

You'll also notice that after that walk your desire to change much also abruptly halted. Coincidence? I think not.

Not sure on that one, it was a long time ago. Having something to look forward to did help though.

If you still want to lose weight, how much would you like to lose? By when? How much would you need to lose, per week, to attain that goal? By answering these questions you break down your long term goal into a series of very small and very measurable steps. Progress is its own reward, and will help reinforce the discipline (not motivation) you need to keep it up.

Honestly, losing weight isn't a target because I care about what my weight is. Losing weight is a target because I want to look and feel better. I don't really care what number I end up at, but I know it needs to be smaller than the one it is at the moment!

Same thing for getting fitter. What does that even mean? Cardiovascular capacity? Eventually do a 5k without stopping to walk? How far can you run without stopping to walk right now? Sprinting a 400m in less than a minute? What's your current 400m time? Maybe muscular strength? Being able to lift XX kg up and down Y times? How much are you lifting right now? What you can do from week to week to get from your current position towards your final goal?

This is where my new target(s) come into effect. I can't aim at running a 5k, because I have a bad knee. Gym work to improve the knee is one of my aims, so running could be a thing in the future. Lifting doesn't bother me - I've never had upper body strength and I'm alright with that. On the aforementioned "looking better" side of things, toning up the upper body is more important than being able to lift XXXXX amount.

Moreso for eating healthily. You need to define what that means. Within your caloric budget, complete with Z grams of protein/fiber? Containing your RDA of all vitamins and minerals? What are you currently eating? Within what you're currently eating, some of it's worth keeping, some of it needs to be replaced, and some of it needs to be reduced in quantity, all to make way for things that work towards this goal. Can you make one food substitution a week?

This is on the backburner for now. I am eating better than I have in recent years at the moment, but not tracking it. More importantly, I'm still drinking alcohol regularly. Portion size is down, vegetable/fruit intake is up. Fizzy drinks are rare, I'm drinking water almost all the time.

It's awesome that you hopped into the gym, and as other people have suggested -- keep a log. Unless you have an end goal in mind, "improve" should suffice. It doesn't matter what you're lifting now, what matters is how much you lift next time you do the same thing. Hopefully it's more -- either higher resistance or more reps or something. But it'll help keep track of what you did lift for, and for how many reps so you can clearly go back and go "holy shit, this is awesome."

Yeah, it's improvement I'm aiming for. If weight-loss is the aim of the exercise, improving the amount of exercise is ALSO the aim of the exercise. I think that makes sense Logging isn't much of a problem right now, because the weights are low (and equal across the board) and the reps are low, but consistent. Once things start changing, I'll keep a log.

2.5k on the bike is great. How long did that take you? At what resistance?

Honestly, I don't recall. I do know how I did on Saturday just gone though, I'll post that info at the bottom of this post.

On the same token, feel free to take some pictures of yourself. As you change from day to day you'll hardly notice, but after a few months you can look back on the old pics and again have a wonderful "holy shit" moment.

I considered photos, but there's enough of me taken when I'm out drinking (why are there always women with cameras on nights out?) where I look like an overweight idiot, so I can always refer back to those.

Ok, so Saturday's gym.

A 1km walk, varied the speed and incline a lot though. It was harder than the previous 1.5km. Legwork, the same as before. Curls, extensions and presses. Upper body, more effort than last time (and I can still feel it!). Chest press, shoulder press, some where you pull the weights towards you whilst sitting. Another bit of time on the bike. Decided to choose the preset interval setting on the bike (3-1), but it was set to resistances 5 and 1. It seemed a little easy going at first, so I bumped it up to 7 and 3. Decided to just go until I could go no more. I was surprised that my right thigh gave out before I ran out of breath - 3.7km. I was pretty happy.

Ideally, things should already be changing. One should be proactive when it comes to exercise.

With regards to weights:

0) Establish routine, start lightish (ie, not max, but not so easy that you're lifting a paper doll)1) Whenever you complete all designated reps and sets, increment resistance upward -- If you benched 40 kg last time, Bench 43 kg this time. Go to 1.2a) If you can't complete all reps/sets with new resistance, don't increment upward. Stay at current resistance until you do. Go to 1.2b) If you can't complete new increment after 3 consecutive attempts (ie, if you're benching mon/wed/friday, and you fail to do all reps/sets at 43 kg each time), drop load to ~85-90%. Go to 1.

The log is less for keeping a record of what you did, and more a plan for what you will do.

The time and seasons go on, but all the rhymes and reasons are wrongI know I'll discover after its all said and done I should've been a nun.

fwiw, mostbeginnerroutines suggest 5x5, wherein the first two sets are warmups (or they just call it 3x5). 10 reps is somewhere more in the realm of hypertrophy and endurance, but if your primary goal is to lose fat (ie, at a caloric deficit) you won't be seeing much hypertrophy. If your goal is more hypertrophy, you're better off being at caloric excess. One can lose fat and build muscle at the same time, but its soooooo slooooow. He or she is usually better off being in periods of deficit followed by periods of excess rather than baseline the whole time.

At 5 rep this also means the increments are a little finer-tuned -- its a lot easier to gain 3kg on a lift where you're only doing 5 reps. This in turn will make it easier to increment upward again, and will make for a wonderful feedback loop that newbies just don't get to experience as much with 10 reps. It should be more optimum for you, but again I don't know exactly what your goals are. 5x10 may very well be perfect for you and your goals.

~

But I mean you should try heavier next time. You completed all reps and sets, so no reason to stay at current resistance. In the imperial system the lowest increment is usually 5 lbs, but I know metric for poop. +2 kg, maybe? Little 1 kg discs on both sides of the bar?

The time and seasons go on, but all the rhymes and reasons are wrongI know I'll discover after its all said and done I should've been a nun.

I'd like to emphasise a point in philsov's post which seems to hold. If you're looking to pile on muscle, choose a weight such that you can't quite finish the last few reps on the last few sets---subject to maintaining good form.

Another point is that it's easier to see progress if you are already keeping records. My wife occasionally checks her long-term progress against her fitocracy records, and is glad she stuck with it. A Google doc would achieve the same benefit.

Ah ok, 5x5 it is then! I'm off again tonight, so will try slightly higher weights.

There is the option to quickly add 2.5(kg, I think - will check for sure tonight) - else the increment is 5kg.

Muscle-gain isn't an aim at the moment, it's more about flab-loss! And alright, you've convinced me - I'll start a google doc to track it all.

philsov - your blog posts all seem to centre around free-weights, rather than the chest/shoulder press machines I'll be using (where I sit on a seat and manipulate handles which have weights attached by cables) - is the essence the same?

And to this end I again suggest monitoring intake. The basic of weight loss is indeed "eat less, move more", but working out WILL make you hungrier. Weight loss (and gain) is due to caloric intake versus maintenance. When you're more active, your maintenance therefore increases. So long as your food intake is the same as if you didn't workout, you're better off. But for a lot of people this isn't the case. The key to weight loss is still diet, though lifting and cardio most certainly help, for reasons outlined in the document I linked in my very first post in this topic.

machines versus freeweights

Eheh. Googling the above phrase can lead to some pretty heated discussion. I'm very much in the freeweight camp.

Most machines will help stabilize the load for you. For a given lift, there are "stabilizer muscles" which do just that. Using a machine to lift instead neglects these completely. This results in lower workout efficiency (less muscles worked = less calories burned), and much lower "real world" strength because a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Compare your basic leg curl machine to a glute ham raise. Both work hamstrings, but the GHR also works the hip adductors, abs, lower back, and glutes.

In the case of bench press, it's more a matter of physics. On BP machine vs freeweights, the same muscles are worked. However, with a BP machine the load is typically located behind the head, and there's an angled lever that you push on. When you're at the top of the lift, there's less load. Less load = less energy = fewer calories burned... at least assuming similar base load. With a freeweight overhead press and bench press, the load is always perpendicular and always centered. And standing OHP also works the core (abs/lower back) a fair amount.

The boon to machines is they're easy to operate (no coach needed, your low wage PT can provide instruction) and have a lower risk of initial injury (which gyms love). Machines/isolation can be good as accessories to help supplement your main lifts (ie, if your weak point on the bench is your triceps, you'd be good to do tricep isolations as well), but to build your entire regimen around them is folly.

The time and seasons go on, but all the rhymes and reasons are wrongI know I'll discover after its all said and done I should've been a nun.

I walked out of the gym last night and effectively drove straight to a pub. I didn't drink much, compared to what I normally would with a meal out, but I did order (and eat most of) a 24oz steak. It was fuckin' tasty and I justified it mentally because it was a lot of protein and that's good, right?

Comments about food in this thread are currently anecdotal, anyway.

Gym last night (I'm about to set up that G-Doc):

Warm Up. 1.5km bike - there were no treadmills free, which apparently is the risk of going to the gym at 6pm. I also had to wait for a locker, it was a one-out-one-in situation Lower body. Leg Press 2 lots of 5x5 at 40kg. Leg Curl 5x5 at 35kg. Leg extension 2 lots of 5x5 at 35kg. The higher weight with lower reps felt better. The additional sets of 5 were done because sometimes the machines I want to use were in use, so I figured I'd do something extra while I waited. Upper body. Chest Press 5x5 at 35kg. Shoulder Press 5x5 at 35kg. Chest incline 5x5 at 35kg. Again, I couldn't get on the other machines (of which there are only one) - I think one is called Upper Back and the other is [something] Rower. Cardio. Bike again. 2k I think. Worked on maintaining my speed at above 20(km/h I think) and experimented a little with the resistances.

It was a quick workout because of dinner plans and the gym being packed. Think I'll avoid going so early on weekdays in future.

Eeew. Don't know what your proximity to gym/general schedule is like, but I'm a fan of late evening (8:30-9:00 ish). It gives me a solid block of time for dinner and relaxation, and when I'm done (going there, working out, coming back, showering) it synchs perfectly with bedtime. The sleep is awesoooome.

The time and seasons go on, but all the rhymes and reasons are wrongI know I'll discover after its all said and done I should've been a nun.

Had a pint (and a half) of ale last night, followed by a pint (and a half) of blackcurrant cordial with tap water. Not very exciting, but healthier than more beer!I almost always have bananas, so I'll stick with those I think. If I'm not going to the gym until 9 though, I'd be needing a full meal at some point. Should that just wait until after?

Moar edits: I did have bread with lunch today, but not a lot. And I ate a lot of salad. It was good, I enjoyed it.

Suggestions for good foods to eat, hours before gym? Or should I time it so I eat a good 6 hours earlier?

Six hours prior is wholly unnecessary.

Oatmeal is a good candidate because the carbs are slow-digesting which'll provide a wonderful steady stream of energy during the workout. Past that, I'm very much a fan of "whatever."

Food is only "good" in context. So my criteria for "good":

- edible/delicious- when coupled with other items in the meal/snack/day, meets macronutrient requirements (carb/protein/fat)- when coupled with other items in the day, meets micronutrient requirements (vitamins/minerals)- preferably cheap. ballin' on a budget.

If you're already at 100% vitamin C for the day, an orange isn't necessarily good for you (sugar and fiber, yay!). If you're deficient in protein, a greasy hamburger might be better than a salad. If you need the fiber and vitamins, the salad may be better. Or, hell, both. So long as the dressing is minimal, veggie-based salads don't even have much calories in the first place. Under this scheme even stuff like cake and doughnuts can be brought into the fold, so long as you mind portions.

So look up recipes for stuff you might like (and actually prepare), add up the ingredients, figure out portion size to fit caloric budget, and eat whatever works. The xkcd cookbook is a great place if you're itching for new recipes, and my post in there has 5 recipes that fit my own criteria.

And, yeah. Certainly eat before. It won't really matter one way or the other as far as your body is concerned, but I'm very much of a grazer so the idea of going from lunch to 9 pm without food is an abomination.

My favorite snackables:

Cottage cheese / Greek Yogurt with diced fruitHard boiled eggsAlmonds

The time and seasons go on, but all the rhymes and reasons are wrongI know I'll discover after its all said and done I should've been a nun.

Might I suggest the lovely staple of meat+sauce plus carb? Shepards pie, spaghetti w/ meatsauce, chicken and rice, etc? The ratio of meat to nonmeat can freely be twerked to meet desired level, coupled with total portion? Side of veggies, always, when possible.

The time and seasons go on, but all the rhymes and reasons are wrongI know I'll discover after its all said and done I should've been a nun.

I sometimes skip the carbs! Last night was chicken and stir-fry veg in thai red curry sauce. I ballsed the sauce up though, so ended up not eating much of it. The chicken and veg was nice though - so that's something.

Gym again last night. Rather than constantly talking about what exercises I've been doing - I'm going to just keep track of it all in the GDoc.

It was good, struggled with my last exercise before my cardio - chest presses. I was just knackered. Did 1 set of 5 reps at 35kg, then had to drop them to 25kg to finish the other 4 sets (and it was still dead hard).

edit: random muscled-bloke saw me struggling and gave me encouraging words. Helped, but not much

10kg is the smallest increment possible? Eesh. Double check the machine for smaller weights; they're usually at the very top of the stack and unlabeled, and can be toggled to activate or not to fill in the gaps inbetween the major weights.

Re: routine -- full body 3x a week is pretty good for beginners. I'd at least nix the leg extensions (redundant with leg press) and incline bench (redundant by bench / shoulder press - you seem to have done this already). I have no clue what the "low row" and "upper back" are, but if they're anything akin to rows and/or chin/pull ups* you're about golden. This should free up some time to deal with an vanity isolation or two, like calf raises or shrugs or curls or hanging leg raises or something glute-y or something. I strongly recommend at least shrugs, because I doubt your forearms are getting any work done to them right now.

philsov wrote:Re: routine -- full body 3x a week is pretty good for beginners. I'd at least nix the leg extensions (redundant with leg press) and incline bench (redundant by bench / shoulder press - you seem to have done this already). I have no clue what the "low row" and "upper back" are, but if they're anything akin to rows and/or chin/pull ups* you're about golden. This should free up some time to deal with an vanity isolation or two, like calf raises or shrugs or curls or hanging leg raises or something glute-y or something. I strongly recommend at least shrugs, because I doubt your forearms are getting any work done to them right now.

Don't most row-type exercises work the grip and hence the forearms? (I was taught that shrugs contribute to upper trapezius dominance, which leads to poor (forward-hunched) posture unless the muscles below and around it are sufficiently strong)

I agree with philsov on nixing the leg exercises besides the press and perhaps the curls (I don't think the leg press does too much for hamstrings, maybe), and the incline bench--you have the shoulder press in addition to the chest press, so that should be sufficient. I think that hanging leg raises would be a good addition, since they do work the core and hips, which do seem a tad neglected by the other exercises. Does the leg press sufficiently hit the glutes? If not, something like bridges, lunges, or step-ups might be good.

I'm surprised that nobody has suggested squats, which hit the quads, hamstrings and glutes, as well as the midsection ('core', if you prefer). I'd insert the usual spiel about the benefits of compounds lifts and free weights relative to isolation exercises and machines, but you've probably heard it already.

Nah, 5kg is the smallest increment. I guess you thought that because I dropped from 35 to 25 so I could finish? The 35 just felt so difficult, I thought even 30 would be too hard. Dropping to 25 was my own decision (and I still nearly didn't do it).

philsov wrote:Re: routine -- full body 3x a week is pretty good for beginners. I'd at least nix the leg extensions (redundant with leg press) and incline bench (redundant by bench / shoulder press - you seem to have done this already). I have no clue what the "low row" and "upper back" are, but if they're anything akin to rows and/or chin/pull ups* you're about golden. This should free up some time to deal with an vanity isolation or two, like calf raises or shrugs or curls or hanging leg raises or something glute-y or something. I strongly recommend at least shrugs, because I doubt your forearms are getting any work done to them right now.

I push the leg stuff as much as I can, because I'm trying to fix my knee. Even if there's no other benefit to it, working it extra is a good enough reason for me.

Yep, low row looks pretty similar to that - only you're sat down, chest pressed against a rest, pulling the weights towards you. Not sure that the upper back is similar to pull ups - here's the machine http://www.technogym.com/gb/products/st ... r-back/449, it's similar to the low row, but works different muscles?

There are both of those machines, the assisted pull-ups and pulldown. I think I'd be more comfortable using the pulldown, as the other one looks complicated to set up.

raike wrote:I think that hanging leg raises would be a good addition

Never heard of these, but will look into it.

raike wrote:Does the leg press sufficiently hit the glutes? If not, something like bridges, lunges, or step-ups might be good.

Good luck!

I have no idea! I'll check next time I go. And thanks

Nath wrote:I'm surprised that nobody has suggested squats, which hit the quads, hamstrings and glutes, as well as the midsection ('core', if you prefer). I'd insert the usual spiel about the benefits of compounds lifts and free weights relative to isolation exercises and machines, but you've probably heard it already.

Yeah, the issue is that at the gym, the free-weights are in an area which is filled with people who seem to know what they're doing. It seems a bit closed-off to me, but maybe that will change. It's more likely my attitude which is wrong, than those I think wouldn't be welcoming.

EDIT: Oh, and there was no gym this weekend - got a cold-like thing going on and I'm not breathing too great normally. Figured it was best to not try and get myself out of breath intentionally.

roband wrote:Yeah, the issue is that at the gym, the free-weights are in an area which is filled with people who seem to know what they're doing. It seems a bit closed-off to me, but maybe that will change. It's more likely my attitude which is wrong, than those I think wouldn't be welcoming.

You should TRY to do what people do who know what they're doing and unless they're idiots and not worth thinking about, they won't bite.

“Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom.”

Pretty much. Good form with freeweights involves a bit of time investment, research, and practice. There is most certainly a payout, though. But I can tell you that no one will care at all how much or little you're lifting, so long as you have halfway decent form.

Flat out asking for help isn't ideal -- there's a lot of people who gained muscles via copious time and crappy form. Unless you know who to ask in the first place through your own knowledge base, asking a random bloke to help you will more than likely be a detriment if my gym is any representation.

The time and seasons go on, but all the rhymes and reasons are wrongI know I'll discover after its all said and done I should've been a nun.