I would go one step further and add a few agd dealers/custom shops address on there as well. Perhaps with some MOTM winners on the back.

Not sure what two sided full color business cards run these days, but I guess if some of the dealers wanted to help cover the costs of such a thing, sure. Business cards are pretty small, for some of us older guys, putting more than one picture on the card would require me to pull out a magnifying glass. I was thinking something pretty simple with the AO logo and web ddress. Maybe a grayscale pic of an RTPro or TAC 1. Depending on the cost of color, maybe a pic of something more interesting.

03-15-2013, 11:13 AM

skipdogg

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPBN

Not sure what two sided full color business cards run these days, but I guess if some of the dealers wanted to help cover the costs of such a thing, sure. Business cards are pretty small, for some of us older guys, putting more than one picture on the card would require me to pull out a magnifying glass. I was thinking something pretty simple with the AO logo and web ddress. Maybe a grayscale pic of an RTPro or TAC 1. Depending on the cost of color, maybe a pic of something more interesting.

Now that is a good idea. No better marketing than the player that keeps wasting you with a mechanical gun that has no real maintenance.

03-15-2013, 11:51 AM

RT Lover

this is what i think

AGD could still b in the game, we all know TK is the man, and legend! isnt that y we r all here? his product, some being 10+ years is still going, still has a strong market. If he would had jumped in the custom side... just offering some other options like bodies, frame( XMT and Luke) he would have cash rolling in. im not saying do everything that XMT and luke do but they are examples of what is out there. TK provided a platform and it grew from there and we all love to customize our mags. heck different color markers, shirts jerseys. u dont need to re amp a marker every year and make it that much cooler. if it was pushed and sponsor some teams, and get that name out there show all the new blood what is out there the name would be known and a younger player wouldnt call mt Rt a spyder( lol he tried)! everybody has there take and options where he could still b in the game. not everything has to be done by a company but he could give it some more power if it was pushed. On the other side i feel he thinks he did what he needed to do, lay it out, provide it and let it grow. a automag was my second marker, i didnt want it at first it was 600$ but my local field he said there is nothing like this rt, it is a beast and u will love it. he gassed it up and i shot it and i still have it. and i understand all this preorder crap and it sucks to try and b the middle man and have your other side fail and bring you down. it is a risk and and most stay away from it. I have always thought Tuna or luke would buy it up and keep it going. but hey we have great providers who stepped in and gave us options others dont have and its all good with that said i would buy i if he made it.

03-15-2013, 11:57 AM

swamphawk7

How about a factory fresh pump mag,eh???

:D

(Yes,I know it won't happen)

03-15-2013, 12:16 PM

OPBN

Quote:

Originally Posted by RT Lover

If he would had jumped in the custom side... just offering some other options like bodies, frame( XMT and Luke) .

As in interesting aside, when I was asking once about Dallara numbers etc. it was mentioned that one of the reasons that the Dallara bodies were soooo freaking expensive was due to the cost of the factory body slugs. From what I got out of the conversation, rather than offering the slugs at a decent price, they were sold at a premium that made it difficult for anyone to buy a bunch of them and make reasonably priced custom bodies. In a way it sounds like custom bodies were somewhat discouraged rather than encouraged.

Correct me if I undersood it incorrectly.

And it is still my opinion that aftermarket bodies should be exactly that, aftermarket. Focus on what you do and do it well rather than venturing off into custom work.

03-15-2013, 12:37 PM

GoatBoy

I'm going to try to keep this short.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobody

even by your own words, they wonder about your gun, but they haven't done anything about it. we all have people come up to us wondering if our mags are ions or something else. why is that? cause people her about those other guns, and not mags.

This is where the pain starts setting in. People ask about my mag, and if they want one like mine, I just have to tell them... they can't.

They can't go buy a new classic mag, and certainly not one in my configuration. You want a new mag, you have to go buy the RTPro, which quite frankly is priced-to-fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobody

you can have the best product in the world, but if no one knows about it, it doesn't matter how much you want to wish things to change. they won't.

The product A) Not being available at all, and/or B) Only available in a form that is completely uncompetitive, is a bigger problem than advertising. Many orders of magnitude bigger. You can give a monkey a jersey and pay him in bananas to do your advertising. The design and manufacturing ... not so much.

03-15-2013, 12:47 PM

dodge3500

If someone puts the business cards together, I'll buy in on it to give out to folks that say (what's that your shooting):-) :-) just let me know

03-15-2013, 12:52 PM

OPBN

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge3500

If someone puts the business cards together, I'll buy in on it to give out to folks that say (what's that your shooting):-) :-) just let me know

I suck at design etc, so its not something that I will undertake, but would be willing to pay for postage or whatever to take 10-15 of them to keep on me when I play.

03-15-2013, 12:55 PM

Patron God of Pirates

There are so many companies holding so many different (often sketchy) patents it's hard for any company to make anything other than a cookie cutter spooly. Forgive me if my facts are wrong or out of date but just some I can think of:

I'm not clear on the details of any of that but IIRC that is the basic reason why we rely mostly on small runs of custom made stuff.

Other than that for Mags to make a comeback we would need to see a shift away from batteries and circuit boards. In an unlimited BPS mech semi-only format Mags would own. It would take some high profile marketing. Reaching out to stores, fields, and players. An all mech/mag team winning a major event would be nice. The trick is in creating mechanical=skillful / batteries=entry level association.

For some reason that has always been the way I thought. I got rid of both of my e-mags for that reason. I would love to see a high capacity pneumatic loader. I digress.

The Mag I'd like to see back in the stores is an entry level mag with an X-Valve and cheep-o everything else. Then posters with a bunch of Mags from the MOTM winners thread. Put some printed materials in the box with lots of pictures of what a Mag can be.

03-15-2013, 01:38 PM

RT Lover

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPBN

As in interesting aside, when I was asking once about Dallara numbers etc. it was mentioned that one of the reasons that the Dallara bodies were soooo freaking expensive was due to the cost of the factory body slugs. From what I got out of the conversation, rather than offering the slugs at a decent price, they were sold at a premium that made it difficult for anyone to buy a bunch of them and make reasonably priced custom bodies. In a way it sounds like custom bodies were somewhat discouraged rather than encouraged.

Correct me if I undersood it incorrectly.

And it is still my opinion that aftermarket bodies should be exactly that, aftermarket. Focus on what you do and do it well rather than venturing off into custom work.

What Dave z told me is that they had the slugs made from pouring hot metal in a form or what ever. he said something like if they did a big run like 200-300 they could do it. we r talking a good 7 years though. but they did the ule and tack 1 bodies. i guess as long as they advertise or something they would c more $. I have wanted to make a slug square instead of round... more meat but dont tell XMT or luke she is pissed about the new parts lol

i dont think there is a after market body that sucks.... outside of ptp, thats just me

03-15-2013, 02:49 PM

AGDRetro

The Mag could greatly benefit from a reboot. The X-Valve base is just fine, but the parts around it could use an update. Some of these parts people will say aren't worth including or updating because the Mag toters will just replace them, but the question I ask is - "with what?". Your options for "upgraded" or replacement parts is not getting any bigger. The task for AGD would be to make the parts much like the valves in their guns - not worth replacing! Make a lever clamping feedneck that is low profile, STURDY (but not chunky) and easily adjustable. It is not like the market is flooded with tons of new, worthwhile Angel feednecks. You make this one part right and nobody would want to replace it! How about a new rail with the vertical ASA integrated. I don't mean held on there by a screw, but actually a part of the rail!

I would dump a huge chunk of change on AGD if they'd revisit the Classic RT with a couple twists. Give it a body that resembled the X-Mag, run the air thru the rail and update the valve to accept the ULE trigger. Update the trigger frame by enlarging the trigger guard area and give it an integrated rail for the on/off ASA. And for the love of God please license one of RPG's triggers!

As for marketing, I'm not sure how much the "pro" teams are worth, or even magazines like APG or sites like PBN. AO's members and word of mouth at the field are going to be your best bet, the business cards are a great idea. Of course all of this means nothing if AGD won't produce anything new...

Nobody wants to invest in a company that seems to be sitting still.

03-15-2013, 03:45 PM

Nobody

suffice to say, no magic business man is going to fly in and push this company forward. as much as we all like TK, he doesn't care about AGD anymore as he has said that "there is no money in paintball". how long did it take to get the new AGD? has the financials been released so we know where our money went to? even though there is want and need for new parts other than the X-valves, RT Pros(do we really need a rehash of a classic?), what would people actually want to do?

pump kits will never come. as i remember it, the AGD pump kits sat for years and was a flop. its when pump play has become more prevalent AFTER the kits where sold that there is a clamor for them. i really think its more of the fact that the price for used is still high, that people want new so that the price will come down.

Emag, agian won't happen. Emags never flew off the shelves to begin with. you will always have people talking about them you either sight the design of it not progressing(same layout-though in retrospect i feel that the Mag is the Porsche 911 of the paintball world), or that its entirely too heavy. the cost of electronics is the biggest factor against them. you either need a total redesign of the system(different noids and such) or take in an existing board to help power it.

the warp feed was a flop. not that you need people in tourneys to use it, but there is always that one guy that you see with it, but yet it never catches on. besides, with modern forcefeed, you don't need the extra weight of it.

so tell me that i'm wrong and show me where my thoughts can be changed for the better and prove me wrong. i love AGD and my Mag, but this is a dead issue. the life support is there, but it won't pay for the transplants.

03-15-2013, 06:34 PM

GoatBoy

See, the monkeys are already hard at work on the advertising problem! Bananas for everyone! :dance:

I think all these sluggo based bodies are useless. All they do is pretty up your gun at the expense of your pocketbook, and worse, they are a waste of time. Whoever is designing these things is wasting their considerable design capability on aesthetic crap when they could be designing something actually functional.

I say just go back to the steel tube. The classic body is just fine with some minor modifications.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobody

suffice to say, no magic business man is going to fly in and push this company forward. as much as we all like TK, he doesn't care about AGD anymore as he has said that "there is no money in paintball". how long did it take to get the new AGD? has the financials been released so we know where our money went to? even though there is want and need for new parts other than the X-valves, RT Pros(do we really need a rehash of a classic?), what would people actually want to do?

No magic business man is going to fly in and pay to move the forum to new hosting either.

Yet somehow it happened.

If there's no money left in paintball, then how valuable is the AGD IP? How about just the classic, which you seem to assign no value to?

03-15-2013, 07:05 PM

OPBN

Considering the introduction of the ULE not only decreased the weight, it also allowed for the use of real detents, clamping feednecks, and cocker threaded barrels I would consider it a substantial performance increase over the SS bodies that required using elbows. In regards to price, the last rendition of SS bidies that came with clamping feednecks were about $120, not much less than what ULEs cost. Having the ability to use Cocker threaded barrels alone is worth the price of a ULE.

And if you don't like aesthetically pleasing parts... Don't buy them, but saying that people are wasting their time and talents making them is a bit harsh. Actually pretty douchey really.

03-15-2013, 07:45 PM

GoatBoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPBN

Considering the introduction of the ULE not only decreased the weight, it also allowed for the use of real detents, clamping feednecks, and cocker threaded barrels I would consider it a substantial performance increase over the SS bodies that required using elbows. In regards to price, the last rendition of SS bidies that came with clamping feednecks were about $120, not much less than what ULEs cost. Having the ability to use Cocker threaded barrels alone is worth the price of a ULE.

Funny, I've got a stainless body right here that has a clamping feedneck without an extra elbow, Spyder/Ego detentes, and takes cocker threaded barrels.

Given the complexity of producing the ULE's, I have to wonder if making the stainless bodies is actually easier and cheaper, if you're smart about it. I mean it's great that they do such a nice welding job on those feed necks... but it's also unnecessary. I could be wrong here and maybe they could just revamp the ULE body and not do such complicated things, but the ol' stainless tube seems pretty easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPBN

And if you don't like aesthetically pleasing parts... Don't buy them, but saying that people are wasting their time and talents making them is a bit harsh. Actually pretty douchey really.

It's the truth. Having expensive upgrades available is nice as an option, but there are some basic things that need tending to first.

03-15-2013, 08:03 PM

RT Lover

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoatBoy

See, the monkeys are already hard at work on the advertising problem! Bananas for everyone! :dance:

I think all these sluggo based bodies are useless. All they do is pretty up your gun at the expense of your pocketbook, and worse, they are a waste of time. Whoever is designing these things is wasting their considerable design capability on aesthetic crap when they could be designing something actually functional.

dude input is great but it is far out there, isnt the best thing about a mag is the options? so u dont have anything nice? big tv, siding on your house, cd player smart phone? all really fancy items u dont need, i know(assume all others) what i put into my marker is my own business. Im a guy anything with boobs and flames i want. anyway if i want to spend it isnt my choice? what some dealers throw out there is just wicked... and it has a price, if u r good with a ss body im cool with it :rofl:

03-15-2013, 08:14 PM

OPBN

I'm sorry but if you are really arguing that AGD or others should have pursued development of the ultimate SS body rather than the ULE, there's no reasoning with you. Troll on.

03-15-2013, 08:22 PM

GoatBoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPBN

I'm sorry but if you are really arguing that AGD or others should have pursued development of the ultimate SS body rather than the ULE, there's no reasoning with you. Troll on.

No, I'm not saying that. You clearly do not understand what I am saying.

You guys all talk big about having choice. But there is no choice for a less expensive automag body.

That's great that you can buy all the stupidly expensive bodies that you want, but where does the choice exist for a reasonable, basic, inexpensive body that literally isn't from the 90's? I'm not talking about pursuing the ultimate -- I'm talking about the exact opposite. Pursuing something REASONABLE.

WHERE IS THIS CHOICE YOU SPEAK OF?

03-15-2013, 08:51 PM

OPBN

There are TONS of classic bodies out there. Why would anyone need to make more? So let's take one and add an AC adapter for $40. Say we lucked out and found a CF SS one and only paid $45 for it. We're now up to $85. We cut the feednecks down and add an ego feedneck for another $25. Now we are up to $110. For an extra $15 I could have a ULE body already AC threaded, so no adapter to get stuck, nice detent, and threaded for a clamping feedneck. And it weighs probably 1/2 of what the SS does. How does that make sense?

03-15-2013, 09:06 PM

GoatBoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPBN

There are TONS of classic bodies out there. Why would anyone need to make more? So let's take one and add an AC adapter for $40. Say we lucked out and found a CF SS one and only paid $45 for it. We're now up to $85. We cut the feednecks down and add an ego feedneck for another $25. Now we are up to $110. For an extra $15 I could have a ULE body already AC threaded, so no adapter to get stuck, nice detent, and threaded for a clamping feedneck. And it weighs probably 1/2 of what the SS does. How does that make sense?

That is *exactly* correct. It makes no sense to go that route. Piecing it together like that absolutely makes it more expensive.

So how much do you think it costs to make an Empire Trracer body?

03-15-2013, 09:22 PM

OPBN

Maybe you should take lead on this. I'm sure there's a massive market out there for inexpensive SS bodies for Automags.

03-15-2013, 11:27 PM

brokeass_baller

I get what he's saying. He isn't talking about beauty, he's talking cost only. He's saying something basic based around the classic valve could compete in todays market with similar mechs (Tippmanns) and probably lower-end electros. ULE bodies are apparently more expensive to produce than soldering a steel tube to another steel tube, then throwing in an insert with cocker threads and a normal detent.

That said, i think it's really sad we're taking about how to make a mag compete with the Tippmann price range. Automags were once held leagues above any Tippmann maker. It's sad to realize their fall.

03-15-2013, 11:48 PM

RehKal

Fall? What fall?

Mags were -never- cheap and they still aren't. Nor should they be. They aren't some off the shelf, generic knock off marker produced by the thousands. They are one-off, highly customizable pieces of art and are reflected as such by their price tag. And honestly, they are a sight cheaper than some of the $1200 electros out there that come out with a new model every year where they tweak... the milling... or the color...

Remember back in the day of the classic automag? When you bought one, it was a grip, valve and body. No barrel, everything else was added and customized.. it wasn't until later that they came with everything else. ;P

03-16-2013, 12:05 AM

Nobody

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoatBoy

See, the monkeys are already hard at work on the advertising problem! Bananas for everyone! :dance:

I think all these sluggo based bodies are useless. All they do is pretty up your gun at the expense of your pocketbook, and worse, they are a waste of time. Whoever is designing these things is wasting their considerable design capability on aesthetic crap when they could be designing something actually functional.

I say just go back to the steel tube. The classic body is just fine with some minor modifications.

so you'd rather stifle the artist aspects of machinists who made the Chord, Dallara, the X mag, the SFL, Ripper, IT and all those aftermarket bodies? sure, just performance is nice, but sometimes people want to turn heads. would you buy a Ferrari that looked like a Honda Element? so a Chrysler K car is just as good as a Jaguar E type?

the modular breech on an Xmag allows you to switch from a warp feed to a vert feed. its nice to have when you want to go from a hose to a pose. hell, a smaller vert feed with a smaller hopper brings the mobility up on the gun so that you don't have this huge long brick that you are trying to move around. you are able to bring the center of gravity of the gun towards your hand and not above it. plus, all the steel adds up. guns that weigh less make for a more mobile person. why do you think that the stainless barrel fad is gone?

but the aftermarket bodies are personality. look at even the Eclipse body kits. they gave the person the option to personalize their gun. no one want to have the same thing that the person next to them has. its functional, but i'd take a vert feed clamping feed next over a powerfeed any day. i hated the elbows but it was a necessity. it also eliminates a break point. the elbow will fail before the body or the hopper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoatBoy

No magic business man is going to fly in and pay to move the forum to new hosting either.

Yet somehow it happened.

If there's no money left in paintball, then how valuable is the AGD IP? How about just the classic, which you seem to assign no value to?

hate to tell you, my classic i bought in 1999. its my mud gun, its my anvil. put 30+ cases through it and it has yet to let me down. put some oil in it about a year ago to chase a small leak and that's it. changed everything but the rail and the valve and its a keeper. so i don't have anything against classics, except that they are dirt cheap, you can pick up an ex-rental for $100 and though its solid gun, its still weighs a ton, especially with the powerfeed bodies.

ummm, we the people paid the money to have the forum moved. TK didn't care, but listened to the people. he moved things around, but it wasn't his choice, it isn't his doing about redoing the forum, these are the people posting. also, TK himself said that there is no money in paintball. that's why he left AGD. hell, it will be worth talking to him at Tunaball and see what he says, if he does show up.

IPs couldn't tell you how much they are worth. don't care, i don't deal in them. but regardless of the item, an object is only worth what someone is willing to pay. to those on AGD, its worth a lot. to the people who post here, who do business only here. the rest of the world could care less.

03-16-2013, 12:21 AM

Cokrkilr

I'm with rehkal, back in the day I spent over $250 for my classic, by the time i was done with 2-3 different frames, hyperframe, barrels, etc... I was up in the dm13 price range by today's standards. I played in probably 20-25 local tournaments with and without the hyper, either way, it was heavy, reliable, and one of the most accurate guns out on the field.

I personally wouldn't care if agd made another mag or not. I've got mine, I still find the parts I need, and it still turns heads every time I pull it out of the bag.

Id rather have my mag that maybe (a big maybe) 10 people in the world have in the exact configuration I have, than have a flood of mags out that look the same and generic but they are "new".

And as far as fancy stuff, get a one off made. Like everyone else is saying, if it were cost effective it would have been done already and there would still be stock on someones shelves... oh wait, agd still has purple ule bodies from 2000 on the shelf, that should say something right there

03-16-2013, 08:36 AM

OPBN

Part of the problem I think is the idea that bringing back classic valves and bodies would instantly create a cheaper entry level marker. I would wager that building new classic valves wouldn't necassarily be that much cheaper. If someone wants an entry level Mag, buy used. When people want a Vette, but can't afford a new one, they buy a used older model. It's the way things work.

03-16-2013, 11:51 AM

Patron God of Pirates

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPBN

Part of the problem I think is the idea that bringing back classic valves and bodies would instantly create a cheaper entry level marker. I would wager that building new classic valves wouldn't necassarily be that much cheaper. If someone wants an entry level Mag, buy used. When people want a Vette, but can't afford a new one, they buy a used older model. It's the way things work.

I think the point of an entry level mag would be to bring new players into the fold. The Strength of the Automag used to be its durability and reliability. While that is still a strength, it's best feature imho is something that used to be it's greatest weakness; customization.

Get them with anything with an X-Valve for under 300 retail and the sky is the limit.

03-16-2013, 12:08 PM

OPBN

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgop2.0

Get them with anything with an X-Valve for under 300 retail and the sky is the limit.

Considering an X valve retails for about $250 that would be a really tough task.