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Nation watches as a divided California votes on same-sex marriageSupporters and opponents have mounted a costly campaign over Proposition 8, which would amend state Constitution to ban gay marriage.By Jessica Garrison Cara Mia DiMassa

8:41 PM PST, November 4, 2008

A measure to ban gay marriage was leading in early returns primarily from conservative counties but exit polls showed the race as too close to call.

Proposition 8 would amend the California Constitution to define marriage as only between a man and a woman. Exit poll data showed that Democrats and independents were tending to vote against Proposition 8, while Republicans were in favor of the measure.

The proposition was trailing among white voters, but was ahead among black voters. Latino voters were closely divided.

People who said they attended religious services weekly were overwhelmingly voting for the measure, while those who said that they occasionally or never went to religious services were voting no.

Voters older than 65 voted mostly for the proposition, while those in the 18-29 range voted against it.

Recent polling has shown the race to be extremely close, and that divide was reflected at polling places throughout Southern California today.

Someone here from California will need to, better than I can, look over the county by county returns as they are coming in. It's only been 2 hours since polls have closed there, and as the article mentions thus far it's the more rural, conservative counties reflected in the actual reporting tallies. Urban polls always come in slower, if it's like it is on the east coast.

*Sigh* You know what? I think I may just go on to bed now without knowing...because right now I have a whole lot of hope in my heart and I don't feel like fucking it up with bad news. I got all excited when I saw this thread post because my parade was already getting rained on at another site. Right now I am feeling good for and about my country...I'd like to keep it that way completely for at least one night. So I'll snooze with it still up in the air.

I checked out the Proposition 8 Results by County and to be honest I really don't understand it. For example, I live in Tehama County and if you put your arrow on it, it shows 0% reporting but then it says: YES 5674 votes (72.2%) NO 2,188 votes (27.8%.

But I can tell you that the major urban areas have not reported. The major metropolitan areas are along the coast. All the green is rural.As you can see, there is a lot of open country in California.

At this moment with only 30% of the precincts reporting the Yes on 8 has only a 6 point lead from 10 earlier this evening. This proposition will be an all nighter with final results not expected until 9:AM Have the best dayMichael

Prop 8 is nutz.Since when do we allow voting on civil rights issues???Whats next, women voting rights, mixed marriage rights, re enactment of slavery???This should have nothing to do with popular vote or "straights" involvement in the first place.Just insane!

I certainly hope the last remaining precincts turn the tide, but it doesn't look good now. This means that an awful lot of Californians pulled the lever for Obama and for the ban (sigh). Florida and Arizona have also adopted bans and Arkansas has voted to ban the adoption of children by gay couples. As happy as I am about the Obama victory, this night is certainly bittersweet.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 08:37:53 AM by atlq »

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ďKeep up the good work.... And God bless you.Ē -- Sarah Palin, to members of the Alaskan Independence Party, 2008

If we had had 1/10 of the funding and attention that the "national" gay organizations devoted to CA we would have defeated Amendment 2 in FL. And Amendment 2 in FL (which restricts even domestic partnerships and benefits) is much more far reaching than Prop 8 in CA.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 08:49:43 AM by bmancanfly »

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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

If it fails, I obviously understand that it overturns the previous decision...but what do the options become then? IF Obama's administration weighs in on some sort of federal legislation, that would overturn this - right? But even then, we would most likely be speaking of something along the lines of civil unions and not "marriages" per se.

I am crossing my fingers and holding my breath.

I have to admit, though: deep down inside, my absolute resentment for christian bullying morality is seething. I'm having quite dark thoughts inside toward them all - I'm just being honest. I am sick to fucking death of getting squashed down at every turn and demoralized & invalidated by these people. And yes, I recognize that it is not "every" christian that feels this way - but the group as a whole has painted us with a broad brush for so long that it is increasingly difficult for me not to do the same with them.

Pardon my rant, but if this fails I am going to be really, really boiling. Think of all the couples who have had their ceremonies over these last several months - to be nullified yet again. And yes, bman, this sentiment applies to the Amendment 2 as well. It is utterly galling.

hunter,I share your anger. This really sucks.Compounding that is that now I may lose my healthcare coverage. I get my healthcare through my boyfriends company plan. Now it may be illegal in FL to extend domestic parner benefits. I'm very worried

We can be very very greatful for an Obama victory and all that that represents. But the hostility in all these anti-gay amendments is depressing.

If I lose my coverage how am I gonna pay for my meds?

I guess the vote was so close in CA that folks out there could get another Prop on the ballot to overturn Prop 8 in the next election cycle. But here in FL the threshhold is 60% to overturn Amend. 2 so we're screwed.

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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

hunter,I share your anger. This really sucks.Compounding that is that now I may lose my healthcare coverage. I get my healthcare through my boyfriends company plan. Now it may be illegal in FL to extend domestic parner benefits. I'm very worried

We can be very very greatful for an Obama victory and all that that represents. But the hostility in all these anti-gay amendments is depressing.

If I lose my coverage how am I gonna pay for my meds?

I guess the vote was so close in CA that folks out there could get another Prop on the ballot to overturn Prop 8 in the next election cycle. But here in FL the threshhold is 60% to overturn Amend. 2 so we're screwed.

If your boyfriend's employer provides benefits by buying insurance, Florida law may control. But if your boyfriend's employer is larger they probably self insure the healthcare coverage and only use an insurance company to adminisiter the health care plan. Self insured plans are governed by ERISA (The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974) which preempts state laws that require or disallow coverage.

His local human resources rep could tell you whether or not the plan is self insured (but they won't usually be willing to commit the company to future policy directions).

I'm disappointed gay marriage took a beating this election but I'm not really surprised. I think gay activist should have gone for domestic partnerships first, allowed people to get used to the idea, and then gone after marriage. The majority of American are just not ready for gay "marriage". According to surveys, ads like this were very effective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFYP4. Obama does not support gay marriage and I don't think any progress toward "marriage" will be made anytime soon. The situation in Florida really sucks.

On the bright side, in California they just need to spend another $74 million dollars and create a Proposition to reverse Prop 8 during the next election.

I'm disappointed gay marriage took a beating this election but I'm not really surprised. I think gay activist should have gone for domestic partnerships first, allowed people to get used to the idea, and then gone after marriage. The majority of American are just not ready for gay "marriage". According to surveys, ads like this were very effective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFYP4. Obama does not support gay marriage and I don't think any progress toward "marriage" will be made anytime soon. The situation in Florida really sucks.

On the bright side, in California they just need to spend another $74 million dollars and create a Proposition to reverse Prop 8 during the next election.

Looks like California really isn't as liberal as I thought it was, but, I haven't resided in California in well over 6 1/2 years so I guess a lot has changed in that State since I lived there do I miss living in California? not the cost of living, that was the main reason I moved to New Mexico (Albuquerque) in 2001

« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 11:44:58 AM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

NBC reports 52% YES, 48% NO with 96% of the precincts reporting. The YES on 8 campaign did what the Obama campaign did, go into neighborhoods and talk to people where no one else was. As of this morning, there are 3 lawsuits being filed, Gloria Allred is representing a lesbian couple in Southern Cal. Have the best dayMichael

"Senator Obama supports civil unions, and he has consistently opposed federal and state constitutional marriage amendments because, as we have seen in some states, enshrining a definition of marriage into the constitution can allow states to roll back the civil rights and benefits that are provided in domestic partnerships and civil unions," [spokesman Ben] LaBolt said.

I don't think either side is willing to give up yet.

Unfortunately I have to go to work today which is in a very conservative neighborhood. Yesterday a Yes on 8 supporter threw there soda at my car and muttered something in Russian (?) because I had a No on 8.

California isn't liberal outside of the urban areas. Anyone should have realized this. It's the same in ANY "liberal" state of the US. Most any liberal issue isn't so much North vs. South or whatever, it's urban vs. rural more generally. Always has been... the changes one sees slowly are an increased level of urbanity.

Change comes slowly with equality issues, and battles must be lost before the war is won. Nobody ever promised this would be easy. And as we've seen illustrated amply on this very web board there is a significant amount of gay people that don't care about any of this, and don't even comprehend and/or recognize that this is an equality issue. If you can't convince you're own kind then that kind of tells you how much work is to be done.

California isn't liberal outside of the urban areas. Anyone should have realized this. It's the same in ANY "liberal" state of the US. Most any liberal issue isn't so much North vs. South or whatever, it's urban vs. rural more generally. Always has been... the changes one sees slowly are an increased level of urbanity.

Change comes slowly with equality issues, and battles must be lost before the war is won. Nobody ever promised this would be easy. And as we've seen illustrated amply on this very web board there is a significant amount of gay people that don't care about any of this, and don't even comprehend and/or recognize that this is an equality issue. If you can't convince you're own kind then that kind of tells you how much work is to be done.

And as we've seen illustrated amply on this very web board there is a significant amount of gay people that don't care about any of this, and don't even comprehend and/or recognize that this is an equality issue. If you can't convince you're own kind then that kind of tells you how much work is to be done.

How true. It's like if it doesn't effect them, then it's not important. Yet, these same folks want others (mainstream, HIV- people) to understand, support, and help those of us dealing with HIV / AIDS in terms of discrimination, cost of meds, etc. It's really kind of pathetic.

California isn't liberal outside of the urban areas. Anyone should have realized this. It's the same in ANY "liberal" state of the US. Most any liberal issue isn't so much North vs. South or whatever, it's urban vs. rural more generally. Always has been... the changes one sees slowly are an increased level of urbanity.

Change comes slowly with equality issues, and battles must be lost before the war is won. Nobody ever promised this would be easy. And as we've seen illustrated amply on this very web board there is a significant amount of gay people that don't care about any of this, and don't even comprehend and/or recognize that this is an equality issue. If you can't convince you're own kind then that kind of tells you how much work is to be done.

I lived in a Large City in Northern California, that had almost 90 to 95% Black & Latino, so, yeah I see your point but I was in (total Culture-shock) when I moved to Albuquerque, NM six 1/2 yrs ago, I still i'm my question ( to myself was this) ok I see a lot of Latino's, but, where in the hell are all the Blacks

« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 12:50:10 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

As an aside and in line with my urbanity point, Barack Obama (racial issues aside) also represents a triumph of urbanity -- he's the first big city President we've elected since JFK. And the first non-Southern Democrat to win since JFK too. While Obama isn't the white knight for gay issues, comparatively he is by leaps and bounds fundamentally, in terms of moving the country along. And he definitely comes from a "bottom up" activist/progressive ideology, and is firmly Gen-X as is his entire movement that elected him and registered tons of new voters. When have you ever heard gay people even mentioned in a Presidential acceptance speech?

As an aside and in line with my urbanity point, Barack Obama (racial issues aside) also represents a triumph of urbanity -- he's the first big city President we've elected since JFK. And the first non-Southern Democrat to win since JFK too. While Obama isn't the white knight for gay issues, comparatively he is by leaps and bounds fundamentally, in terms of moving the country along. And he definitely comes from a "bottom up" activist/progressive ideology, and is firmly Gen-X as is his entire movement that elected him and registered tons of new voters. When have you ever heard gay people even mentioned in a Presidential acceptance speech?

Another thing I noticed about Albuquerque, NM when I 1st moved here? not only did it not have many blacks, but, it didn't have any black-Gay-men, so, Yeah, I'm still in a Culture-shock

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

I'm thrilled with the Obama win (and hopefully NC will be placed in his column in a few days after absentee ballots are counted) but am saddened by this loss.

We have our work cut out for us in this country as we are sadly not included in most people's definition of equal, but like the historical event witnessed last night, I know ours will come too, and I believe it will be greatly advanced by President Obama.

And so we must say to every American: Look beyond the stereotypes that blind us. We need each other - all of us - we need each other. We donít have a person to waste, and yet for too long politicians have told the most of us that are doing all right that whatís really wrong with America is the rest of us- them.

Them, the minorities. Them, the liberals. Them, the poor. Them, the homeless. Them, the people with disabilities. Them, the gays.

Change comes slowly with equality issues, and battles must be lost before the war is won. Nobody ever promised this would be easy. And as we've seen illustrated amply on this very web board there is a significant amount of gay people that don't care about any of this, and don't even comprehend and/or recognize that this is an equality issue. If you can't convince you're own kind then that kind of tells you how much work is to be done.

Philicia, you rule! Thank you for saying this.

I must say, I've been very down about some of the ignorance and self-loathing I've witnessed in the Off Topic forum during the last few weeks.

That one is from The Democratic Convention Speech (and that is a great speech,) but I also remember him specifically acknowledging gays in his Presidential Acceptance speech in November of 1992.

The key thing here is that we can not get compliant and too comfortable in that we have a gay friendly president as that is what I think happened during the Clinton years. Obama, like Clinton, is the only logical and rational choice for gay people in this country, but it is up to us to see our rights fought for and won.

That one is from The Democratic Convention Speech (and that is a great speech,) but I also remember him specifically acknowledging gays in his Presidential Acceptance speech in November of 1992.

The key thing here is that we can not get compliant and too comfortable in that we have a gay friendly president as that is what I think happened during the Clinton years. Obama, like Clinton, is the only logical and rational choice for gay people in this country, but it is up to us to see our rights fought for and won.

I just hope Obama doesn't throw us (in-front-of-a-bus) like Clinton did and we remember just how that played-out don't we.........

« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 01:27:12 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Attorney Gloria Allred and her clients, a lesbian couple, who won right to marry in the California Supreme Court will hold a news conference to announce a new lawsuit against Prop. 8

Attorney Gloria Allred and her clients, Robin Tyler and Diane Olson, will hold a news conference today November 5, 2008 at 12:00 noon at 6300 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1500 L.A. to announce a new lawsuit against Prop. 8. Prop. 8 intended to ban same gender marriages in California.

Ms. Allred and her law firm represented the couple in their victory before the California Supreme Court. Her clients became the first to marry in Los Angeles County in June.

Ms. Allred will file the new lawsuit today with the California Supreme Court on behalf of the couple. The new lawsuit will contain a new and controversial legal argument as to why Prop. 8 is unconstitutional. Copies of the lawsuit will be provided to the press at the news conference.

I checked out the Proposition 8 Results by County and to be honest I really don't understand it. For example, I live in Tehama County and if you put your arrow on it, it shows 0% reporting but then it says: YES 5674 votes (72.2%) NO 2,188 votes (27.8%.

But I can tell you that the major urban areas have not reported. The major metropolitan areas are along the coast. All the green is rural.As you can see, there is a lot of open country in California.

robt

I always knew I don't like in the real world... I checked Sonoma County stats:453 Precincts reporting of 453YES on 8- 65,898 votes 33.9%NO on 8- 128,466 votes 66.1%

Attorney Gloria Allred and her clients, a lesbian couple, who won right to marry in the California Supreme Court will hold a news conference to announce a new lawsuit against Prop. 8

Attorney Gloria Allred and her clients, Robin Tyler and Diane Olson, will hold a news conference today November 5, 2008 at 12:00 noon at 6300 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1500 L.A. to announce a new lawsuit against Prop. 8. Prop. 8 intended to ban same gender marriages in California.

Ms. Allred and her law firm represented the couple in their victory before the California Supreme Court. Her clients became the first to marry in Los Angeles County in June.

Ms. Allred will file the new lawsuit today with the California Supreme Court on behalf of the couple. The new lawsuit will contain a new and controversial legal argument as to why Prop. 8 is unconstitutional. Copies of the lawsuit will be provided to the press at the news conference.

I hope a BILLION lawsuits are filed Prop. 8 is unconstitutional, and it should have NEVER even gotten on the ballot

« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 01:49:02 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

California isn't liberal outside of the urban areas. Anyone should have realized this. It's the same in ANY "liberal" state of the US. Most any liberal issue isn't so much North vs. South or whatever, it's urban vs. rural more generally. Always has been... the changes one sees slowly are an increased level of urbanity.

That is right on. Also the younger voters are more gay friendly than older voters. Attitudes are changing but it takes some time.

Is there a point (yet) to having gay versions of Selma to Montgomery marches until you convince more gay people that this is an important issue of equality instead of just "marriage"? Sure, it's cute to be hosed down by police on video, but things need to be more strategic.