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Re: The Last Beekeeper

Quote "It's not just poor beekeeping it's poor business that is negatively affecting those who go down in flames betting on that one color hoping for the big money." from Joel

I find this this quote by Joel offensive!

I ask the question, If every year for the past 20 years you did the same annual rotation of migratory beekeeping and had great results, then the next season 80 % of your operation failes, is this poor beekeeping? remember that the people in this documentery didn't know now what we now know, its 3 seasons ago and we all have make major changes to our businesses.

And even with all the changes.

I did not choose to loose 69% or (1,999) hive this year, it was not PPB and I was not the only one. The three individuals in the movie did not plan on the EPA approving systemic neonicitinoids with out the proper full review. ( Which is now being lead by the State of CA dept. of pesticide use), nor did any of us have any imput in the use of new fungicides ie Bravo. Which we have evidence is killing the bees.

Of coarse, I am a aware of the resent studies bacause I attended two major conferences this year, CSBA & AHPA which new research has been released proving more & more that the bee die off is being affected by things out of our current control.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

I saw the film. I've read many opinions as to why each of the beekeepers failed. Most of which are probably far from the real reason as to why their colonies collapsed.

The film probably omitted a lot of extraneous stuff that the beekeepers did for sake of keeping the length of the film down. I'll have to watch it again as my cable signal seems to like breaking up in the winter due to more moisture in the air. Go Time Warner, woohoo.

I didn't see the beekeepers feed their bees once they were placed in the orchard. Joe Traynor mentioned in one of his newsletters that the behavior he observed from the bees was that of robbing. From what I've read about robbing behavior once it starts a colony can be vicious and it can lead to the death of a target colony. When it comes down to it, in a situation like that where there's nothing till the almonds bloom. It'll be down to the strongest colony. They'll all rob each other to death and since there's no other forage till the almonds bloom, that behavior won't stop until they bloom.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

Knowing Joel as I do, I can assure you he wasn't meaning to sound judgemental or overtly critical. The film has been a great discussion generator amongst beekeepers. And nonbeekeepers that have seen it have become more aware of our perdicaments and obsticles. So, imo, the film has served us well.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

there is no real pile of new evidence that puts Bayer neonics in the crosshairs. people are taking snippets of new studies out of context to make speculative statements.

with the new studies I think the systemic insecticide issue is pretty much over and the planned delisting of the organophosphates set for 2012 rolls on.

get over it and move on is my advice. the fact is there never was any argument about the toxicity of the organophosphates on bees and the neonics are much much safer for fish, birds, humans ands yes bees. None of the major bee reasearchers on the USA will go on record supporting the wild notion that Bayer chems are to blame.

how many of the folks drinking the Bayer Kool Aid use off label treatments? Do you treat more then once a year? Treat 3 times or more a year? There is a credible and real pile of new evidence that shows some of the treatments and combinations of treatments are far far more toxic to bees then even the most speculative neonic study.

Hackenberg, Mendes and others have been on a Bayer study group that met over the last year and they designed an experiment with Hacks bees and the experiment findings presented at Orlando. 12 control colonies were nearby in an untreated location. 12 colonies were in a orange grove.

Movento the new Bayer neonic chemical was applied per label on orange bloom, no affects on brood or the hive was seen. repeated samples were taken for several more months and no difference was ever seen between the two groups. then Hack treated his bees 3X in a row with an unspecified material and the experiment officially ended. mite levels in late summer were dangerously high in the fall and there were 3 hives left of the original 24 with evidence that mites wiped out the hives along the way.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

I join with Keith Jarret in asking LSpender what he has changed. We still try to gather the most honey for the least amount of money. In fact, the frame manipulation techniques, and equipment styles, were developed by my Grandfather after WWII. Some of our equipment IS from the 40's(supers) and roofs from the 20's and 30's are being repaired(wood replaced) and sent out again.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

"there is no real pile of new evidence that puts Bayer neonics in the crosshairs. people are taking snippets of new studies out of context to make speculative statements. this site if full of that kind of BS. Quote from Bud D"

At the AHAP in Sacramento a few weeks ago , Richard from the CA dept. of pesticide use presented a study they are currently working on.

He specificly stated a study that they commissioned on Linwood trees, systemic admire used on 11 of 30 trees, no major residual problems until 5 to 6 months after aplication when every Bumblebee visiting those 11 treated trees died ( They had plastic tarps on groung) the bumblebees had levels of the admire in side @ 238 PPB, the level of residual in the ground also shot up 6 months after application going still higher.

"get over it and move on is my advice. the fact is there never was any argument about the toxicity of the organophosphates on bees and the neonics are much much safer for fish, birds, humans ands yes bees. None of the major bee reasearchers on the USA will go on record supporting the wild notion that Bayer chems are to blame. " quote Bud D

How do you know Neonicitoids are safer?

Not sure how a nerve agent put into my water source that goes into the food I eat is safer.

What do you mean by toxicity of Organophasphates, we've never mentioned those, in fact they have been sweeped off the shelfs, in fact I have a blue berry grower that has been forced to use Admire because all other pesticed that have been approved for the Grub eating his root have been taken off the shelf.

I am very open to new information on how to keep the hive alive but I am shocked by the lack of vision by the people in our industry as to how we are being affected by the changes in chemical uses in out agriculture industry.

As stated by the "Honey Advisory Board" related from the EPA. There has been a significant shift in why and how pesticides are being used in the USA. In the not too distant past, pestcides were used to suppress outbreakes of pests; today pesticides are used extensively to prevent pest outbreaks.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

Originally Posted by LSPender

As stated by the "Honey Advisory Board" related from the EPA. There has been a significant shift in why and how pesticides are being used in the USA. In the not too distant past, pestcides were used to suppress outbreakes of pests; today pesticides are used extensively to prevent pest outbreaks.

Isn't that like how a lot of beekeepers are applying treatments to their bees nowadays as well, on a routine/preventative schedule?

The little bee returns with evening's gloom,
To join her comrades in the braided hive... -Tennyson

Re: The Last Beekeeper

L.S let me first qualify this by saying I'm sorry to hear about any beekeeper who is losing in this current beekeeping atmosphere. The fact you are losing stock by no means in my mind makes you a bad beekeeper or a bad businessman. I may be in your company on any day too come. In my mind it's about how you recover. I wasn't actually thinking about the beeks in the movie I was thinking about all the stories of the more inexperianced guys who got stung. Having said that:

"I personally did not plan on lossing 69% of all live hives this year 2009, niether did anyone on this program the last beekeeper." L.S Pender

These huge losses are nothing new they've been the headlines for a couple of yeas now. If you are up on all the issues with systemics, what's going on with nosema, all the hype and facets surrounding CCD why wouldn't you plan on huge losses? We have to plan for the worst BECAUSE we know what's going on. That's just farming. I know we're making a couple extra 1500 mile round trips to check on stock this year and with a little luck and a little good mgt. hoping to continue yet another year. As a back-up we decided to sell less nucs this year because we are keeping a few aces in the whole, just in case. Stock isolated from the main, from each other and from commercial farming. We are opening up to different income opportunities and facing we make less in the short run but have a better investment in our future. Diversying gives us the best protection. I trust being a professional you did the same and didn't bet your whole stack of chips on the big money, especially knowing all the ins and outs you say I don't . I also assume that if you did bet on the big money then you're willing to accept the losses and move on, like the rest of gamblers do. You held enough stock in reserve in an isolated safe place just in case, didn't you?

Beekeeping is a different world than 20 yrs ago and we aren't adjusting quick enough. Wholesale honey @ 1.60lb, national demand, huge demand for pollination, national celebrity. CCD is only the newest challenge, many have gone before including Varroa and AFB. Good business is good business and I hope you and the many others who are on the front lines of what may effect us all survive and go on but some may have to stop looking at just the bottom line and start looking a little harder at what good beekeeping practices are in what you tell us are challenging times.

Did not mean to kick you while you were down in fact you never crossed my mind, just made an observation about how we as the industry are doing things IMO.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

For me the high point was the presentation by Medhat Nasr. I guess I wasn't the only one because he was handed an award at the Banquet for his service to the beekeepers of Alberta, CA. He previously received The Alberta Beekeepers 2009 Achievement Award in November. The title of his talk was Honey Bee Winter Kill From 2007-2009 in Alberta, Canada: Are Our Bees Healthy? Medhat showed some remarkable pie graphs that represented the percentage of hives in good condition from 2007 to 2009. This number went from 10% to 70% during those years.

Dr. Nasr emphasizes the importance of monitoring and related that very few beekeepers were monitoring their hives for varroa and nosema when he began his inquiry. He attributes the steep decline in affected bees to the timely use of formic acid and fumagillin. I would suggest the change must be credited to Medhat's sharp focus and hard work getting to the bottom of the problem.

The chief honey plant in the region is canola which, by the way, is treated with imidacloprid. They make huge crops of honey there. "Although there is an expressed concern by many beekeepers around the world about the use of systemics, the experience in Canada is that we have had 10 years of large scale use on canola with no observed ill effect. In the past there were more complaints from beekeepers about Lorsban and Sevin . For canola, the seed treatments, when applied according to label specifications do not appear to be an issue" - Heather Clay

Re: The Last Beekeeper

Bud, I know Peter personally, he was my inspector for several years and always, always had the best interest of my operation and beekeepers as a whole. Worked at Cornell with Nick Calderone before that. Gone from inspection and doing some other work at Cornell but I still keep in touch.

Thanks for posting this information and your experiance, together they really drive home an important point. I'm not in support of many of the supected insecticides but it's futile for us to chase demons that may not even exist.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

Sorry I missed you at the conferance in Orlando Bud....would like to have seen your name badge..if you work for a chemical co. I knew you would be the first to defend Bayer! Maybe It doesnt affect bees on canola.....maybe it affects them differant on certain crops but OTHER researchers are are finding that IT DOES affect bees. I takled to some other researchers privately in the hallway and they think there is some connection. Noone agrees on every subject. The way this stuff works(weakoned immune system/mental abnormailities) seem to link them to bees prolems. I do not use flavinuate or chumaphos in my bees and am getting the old combs outof the brood nest. I agree they are problems. But another big question for you...WHAT IS THE LONG TERM AFFECT ON US? how are these systemic insecticides affecting us in the long term? Cant be good for us I'm sure! We will all probably have alzheimers by 60 or cancer!

Re: The Last Beekeeper

Sutton

I can agree there are still some lingerging questions about Imid. However your parrallels on human health suggest you are not well read on this topic.

The systemics are well on their way to replace organophosphates that originated from Sarin Nerve Gas chemistry of which we had the mfg infrastructure in place after WWII. There is no controversy on organphosphates and their toxicity on bees and humans and wildlife.

For you and your family you want Bayer products used on your food. Its nicontine based man - pretty harmless stuff for the environment. You guys who have not done your reading jump right out here when you imply this stuff is some horrible poison.

About half my bees are in a sea of corn and soybeans. I and my buddies are not seeing any losses outside of some winter kill and occasional mites. Then again we don't use homebrew treatments and don't switch out comb with other beeks and don't do almonds.

Why it is the horror stories are all about the big commercial guys? You ever see any of the stationary folks like M Palmer or me complaining of getting wiped out?

Like the BS that Iraq was behind 9/11 and there are a lot of people in this country that believe that - we have a whole cadre of beeks who believe Imid was behind CCD. One small problem with that theory. Imid was around for almost 15 years before CCD was in our vocabulary.

I have no doubt that oranges are a problem with Temik and there will always be some growers who don't get IPM and use more then full dose on every spray. One researcher I spoke to pointed out the certified bee kills as a percentage of bee losses has stood at single digit percentages for decades and there is no new data that suggests this trend has changed at all. What has changed is how hard some beeks push their bees and 20 years of accumulated crap in brood comb.

The Frazier work from Penn State also is not showing Imid at any moderate levels. The work keeps finding comaphous , fluvalinate and fungicides in comb and bees.

I and my buddies have more to worry about then the baseless Bayer conspiracy and spend our time trying to get rid of the extra bees we have with our queen rearing and nuc building enterprises. Right now my wintering estimates are a 2-3% loss.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

Bud
I DONT WANT ANY, I REPEAT A..N..Y INSECTICIDE ON MY FOOD! Thats why I raise and can most of my food/meat! (no implants, growth hormones or insecticides) It sure cant be good for us! I'll agree organphosphate pesticdes are/were bad for us and bees. I havent used chumophus since the first year it came out. I havent used flavunate for 5 years, most of my bees look ok..still have some queen supersedure. but I didnt get alot requeened in the last years.
All that said a beek here in fl who does not mive out of state...only about 100 mi south to orange/pepper lost 240 out of 250 hives that were pollinating watermellons..the 250 that didnt go in are showing 240 alive. HUMMMM something strange here,,,,he is a very good beekeeper! There are other reports out there that indicate imad caused problems to brood..read the research. Its not finished yet...but I'll make a bet with you. when all is said and done we may never know 100% what caused CCD....BUT I'll bet you a steak supper that imad and other neonictinoids will be implicated in problems relating to insects and humans. Looser pays up at a national convention. Wanna take it on...you sound awful convenced ! I am also considering that if something doesnt change I wont go into orange if they seep spraying like they are now! I know there is no proof...YET but look how neonnics work adn how bees are dying....no proof but common sense? Sometimes commonsense takes you futher than bok sense. Look at old DDT commercials....they sprayed the streets with people walking down them and told them it was GOOD FOR YOU! The worst part is the CHEMICAL COMPANIES do the testing and EPA ok's it.....You dont think testing is baised? If not I have some swamp land in florida for sale at a bargain....it will be worth millions when the real estate boom comes back!

Last edited by JohnK and Sheri; 01-24-2010 at 12:28 AM.
Reason: profanity

Re: The Last Beekeeper

Originally Posted by suttonbeeman

The worst part is the CHEMICAL COMPANIES do the testing and EPA ok's it.....You dont think testing is baised?

Of course it is. The testing 90% of the time goes in favor of the funding entity. In this case the company that paid for the testing of their product. The company who does the testing wants the repeat business. Think that would happen if they came up with a negative answer?

A company wants their products out on the market and it's not in their best interest to have results that would stop the product from entering the market.

Re: The Last Beekeeper

Bud....I almost forgot...There is beekeeper tht moves from Wi to Fl. In fl he makes nucs adn raises queens to sell, so ALL of his comb is rotated out not more than 3 yrs. He is in a area that has just a little orange in Fl. He HAS NOT used fluvalinate or chomphus (legal ir illegal) for the past 6 years. He uses essentials oils(wintergreen) thymol. His bees did great until last year. He lost about 1/2 late last fall....just went downhill fast. This year he has again lost over 1/2. HOWEVER tthe bees that in Wi that were treated the SAME WAY but were in the woods look good. Bees that were in areas where crops were being grown(especially vegestables and food crops) where these insecticides were used are the ones crashing. Just luck??? I think not. There is NO definate PROOF on neonictinoids, BUT THERE is research showng links or brood problems when exposed to them, do some research, they are not as great as you may think.. but why would anyone want that on their food as you stated??? Come clean..do you or have you worked for bayer or another chemical company??
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