And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. Gen.6:7

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. Gen.6:17

For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. Gen.7:4

And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: Gen.7:21-23

And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead. Ex.12:29-30

The LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. Ex.14:17-28

And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven. Ex.17:13

If you look at the first passage in the second qouted block, he doesnt even give the poor dumb cows a break

If he were a person he would be in the deepest darkest hole of the tightest maximum security prison or waiting for lethal injection.

There is a lot of traumata in regard of God... but no need to take it with you. Its good to remember that the battle is over, when it is over and to remember that it is not over when it is not over. How ever, no battle is good, even it might be boring for the first time. Letting go is one thing, do not touch it agian another.

Practice by letting go. Don't hold on. Or if you hold on, don't hold on tight. Do you understand not holding on? This glass here: We hold on to it to pick it up and look at it. When we know all about it, we put it down. That's called not holding on — in other words, holding on but not holding on tight. You hold on to take a look and to know, and then you put it down. You're at ease. It's the same with this...

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

m0rl0ck wrote:Monotheism... i cant think of any other single philosophical error that has resulted in more human misery... but what can you do with them? Beat them with an IQ stick?

I do not believe it is correct to say that monotheists generally have a lower IQ than non-theists, atheists, polytheists et al. Indeed, I have heard that the majority of humankind adheres to monotheism, and the average IQ is, by definition, 100.

since you bring it up

With respect, I didn't.

m0rl0ck wrote:i would bet that agnostics, non theists and atheists have a higher average IQ than monotheists.

Given that IQ apparently deteriorates with age, how does this fit with the topic title?

I don't particularly want to get into a debate, but some of the most intelligent people I have met, my PhD supervisor amongst them, were monotheists. That is hardly surprising given that they are in the majority.

manas wrote:Any other godless folks out there? I mean, really-and-truly godless, blinded as if on the road to Damascus, except that the light spoke to one and said, "guess what? THERE IS NO GOD!"

Me to. I am becoming more and more skeptical. I don't believe in God and Soul. I also have difficulty believing in 5,000km fish, Devas as cause of weather , being reborn as invisible flying peace of meat that vultures peck at, geocentric universe and that Rajagaha existed for hundreds of thousands of years.

I also try my best to believe in rebirth and kamma, just in case. More evidence seems to point to that death is the end.

I do try to contemplate aspects of Dhamma as much as possible because I do suffer. There definitely are really good pointers in the suttas.

Unfortunately Buddhism is a faith. So we have to take parts which are useful to us and discard the rest.

Last edited by Alex123 on Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Mawkish1983 wrote:Given that IQ apparently deteriorates with age, how does this fit with the topic title?

Experience and knowledge grows (hopefully) with age. IQ decline might become too severe after really old age and partially can be held in check through mental exercise, right diet, etc.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Alex123 wrote:Unfortunately Buddhism is a faith. So we have to take parts which are useful to us and discard the rest.

Have you ever tried to make it contrariwise? I guess we would just feed what we already have if we take just what seems to be useful for us.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Alex123 wrote:Unfortunately Buddhism is a faith. So we have to take parts which are useful to us and discard the rest.

Have you ever tried to make it contrariwise?

What exactly do you mean?

Hanzze wrote:I guess we would just feed what we already have if we take just what seems to be useful for us.

Of course one has to use discernment. But really, I have trouble to believe in rebirth as flying piece of meat being eaten by Vultures, or that some city existed for 100,000s of years, or talking animals. I am also not big about protective chanting (where did law of Kamma go?!).

Also, do you really believe that a person could memorize word-for-word everything the Buddha or his disciples recollection of what Buddha has said.Then teach it to a group of monks. Then they would carry 10,000+ worth of pages of unchanged Buddha's teaching for centuries until it is written down in dead language that we are not even sure the Buddha has spoken. Then the dead language would be translated in English, etc. as verbatim truth in all cases?

We can't prove beyond any doubt that Buddha existed, that He knew everything, or that his message was accurately passed down to us. We have to use certain amount of discernment.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

...It's like a doctor handing a bottle of medicine to a patient with a fever. On the outside of the bottle is a label telling the different diseases the medicine can cure. As for the medicine that cures the diseases, it's inside the bottle. If the patient spends all his time reading the label — even if he reads it a hundred times, a thousand times — he'll end up dying and never get any benefit out of the medicine. He'll then go around making a big fuss, complaining that the doctor is bad, the medicine can't cure the diseases it's claimed to cure, even though he never opened the cap on the bottle to take the medicine.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

If you don't read the labels or learn what and why you need to take certain medicine, then you can take the wrong one and make your illness worse.

It is better to take your time, study your illness and then take the right medicine. Otherwise if you keep taking wrong medicine again and again... It can make your illness worse.

Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

It has to be reasoned belief. Otherwise person can indiscriminately believe in Zeus, Jesus, some sea-monster that needs worshiping, or whatever.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

So what in this (your) case is the reason(ing) your are refering to? The 5,000km fish? Dangerous, very dangerous.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Hanzze wrote:So what in this (your) case is the reason your are reffering about? The 5,000km fish? Dangerous, very dangerous.

To put aside teachings that contradict facts, other aspects of the teaching and are not useful. Not to have blind faith that every word was literally spoken by the Buddha and didn't undergo any kind of alteration within 2,500 years. Ultimately one has to use one's own discernment what is useful and what is not.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

So what discernment can your use as reasoning to reject faith in what you do not know jet?

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

It's quite important to distinguish saddha from 'faith', in order to understand that knowledge, not belief, underlies the removal of the hindrance of doubt.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Mawkish1983 wrote:Given that IQ apparently deteriorates with age, how does this fit with the topic title?

Experience and knowledge grows (hopefully) with age. IQ decline might become too severe after really old age and partially can be held in check through mental exercise, right diet, etc.

Oh, my point really was that:1) the thread title suggests that age is inversely proportional to monotheist belief,2) m0rl0ck suggested that IQ is inversely proportional to monotheist belief, and3) I suggested that age is inversely proportional to IQ.

Aside from the fact that I don't think belief cannot be objectively quantitatively measured, one (or more) of these three statements cannot be true.

Edit: One could argue that point 1 is an individual case and so generalisations cannot be drawn. That's fine, but it calls into question whether the other two generalisations can be made; hence, my objection to m0rl0ck's claim.

I wanted to thank everyone who replied for their input, before requesting that this topic be locked so it can slide peacefully into the abyss of old posts. It encapsulated a mood I had at the time, which passed, but I enjoyed the resulting conversation and did not want to terminate the topic until this had run it's course.

My current feeling is that how I phrased things was open to misinterpretation, maybe. If 'godless' means I do not believe in a divine, white-haired father figure who dispenses harsh but (according to his sense of justice) fair punishments and rewards to his 'chosen' or otherwise, then yep godless in that sense I am. But that does not mean I am not quite open to there being other realms and dimensions that we can only dream of, actully existing beyond our current senses' ability to perceive. So maybe 'godless' is too negative a term, but it worked for me at the time.

Let's remember that although Buddhism does not claim any 'one, ultimate, supreme god who should be worshipped by all', that it does admit to the existence of millions of other beings in dimensions higher than this one. Not that we should worship demigods, no; but we should also remember how they got there: by the power of good actions. So I did not mean any disrespect to those gods by this topic. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.