The back lever technique seems similar to the way Iain teaches an application of the nukite, driving the thrusting arm forward to strike the opponents chest and tripping them with the zenkutsu dachi lead foot hooked in behind the Uke's heel.....am I over thinking this or is the similarity quite striking? Especially if it's continued with the arm twist and body rotation of sandan?

The back lever technique seems similar to the way Iain teaches an application of the nukite, driving the thrusting arm forward to strike the opponents chest and tripping them with the zenkutsu dachi lead foot hooked in behind the Uke's heel.....am I over thinking this or is the similarity quite striking? Especially if it's continued with the arm twist and body rotation of sandan?

I can definitely see a similarity there :-) I now fear that someone, somewhere will start considering how the methods of the Ancient Greeks found their way to Okinawa ;-)

Faced with similar objectives and to all intents and purposes identical human bodies, very similar solutions are inevitable.

On a serious note, I am not sure I like the interpretation by the two gentlemen, "a little too long range and floaty"... to give them their dues they are trying to re-create applications from static images drawn on pots...but I would suggest that the motions, which are similar to those seen in the Bubishi, would more closely resemble how we interpret pragmatic kata applications. The Greek fighters being military men, having significantly more experience of close combat, would not be at long range when unarmed and probably aim to be fighting from the clinch.

Added to that, the consideration that it is an artists rendition of the scene, based perhaps on recollection or second hand accounts, where heroic drama may be a greater focus than exact proportion and perspective.....I think the distance of engagement might be misrepresented by an individual trying to neaten up the chaos of combat to deliver a clear image with easily defined lines and destinct body outline....

If you look at the spartan training youth training ...the link below has a readers digest of the process in this History Channel documentary on thermopylea..they were certainly no stranger to brutality.

I think your right that in life the action being represented would be much closer.

Heracles was the son of Zeus so what you’ve done there is claim divine origin for Nukite … allow me to embellish :-)

“Nukite ultimately finds it’s origin in the spears / lightning bolts of Zeus. From there it spread through the ancient world to eventually find itself in karate kata as an empty handed mortal variation. This is the reason why we so often kiai on nukite in kata (Pinan Shodan, Kushanku, etc). The ancients noticed that the lighting spears of Zeus were always accompanied by the boom of thunder. This is recreated in the kata by the practitioner's kiai. Additionally it should be understood that the first character used in writing karate (the “kara” kanji) can also be pronounced “ku” and has the meaning of “sky” or “heaven”, as well as “empty”. The original intended meaning of karate was therefore “heaven hand” to reflect the kata were inspired the deities of accident Greece.”

Now to present that random theorising as detailed historical research and claim a “break through” in the understanding of kata ;-) There’s definitely a book in that! You’ll also notice the similarity of this Pankration statue with the Gedan Barai of Naihanchi / Tekki. We are on to something! OK so it’s a little more “Dan Brown” than actual history … but why let the facts get in the way of a “good” story! It’s certainly no more outlandish than some ideas on kata application that have gained traction.

Maybe not :-)

Th0mas wrote:

On a serious note, I am not sure I like the interpretation by the two gentlemen, "a little too long range and floaty"... to give them their dues they are trying to re-create applications from static images drawn on pots...but I would suggest that the motions, which are similar to those seen in the Bubishi, would more closely resemble how we interpret pragmatic kata applications. The Greek fighters being military men, having significantly more experience of close combat, would not be at long range when unarmed and probably aim to be fighting from the clinch.

I think that’s a fair observation. However, it is also possible that their combat sports and military training would see them intuitively start at a longer range than one would typically see it civilian violence? We will never know :-) I think the term “floaty” is a good one and I get what you mean. Fascinating stuff regardless.

Why leave it there.....as clearly identified in the below image of the greek god Posiedon.......

We see the hooked arm and extention which indicates here he is performing Naihanshi Kata and has just moved on from the second empi....

One translation of Naihanshi given is that of 'Internal divided conflict' which is an unchallengable reference to the three sons of Chronos - Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. Having Killed their father and imprisoned him in Tartarus, the brothers grew apart and in response to his Brothers Martial spirit, Posiedon was required to develop his own grappling skills and ultimately formed naihanshi , naming it in memory of the strife that lead to it's creation.

The final unrebuttable proof of this fact is the naming of the namigeashi leg movement "Returning wave"...

He is also aknowledged by some to be the founder of the Okinawan Oar Form.

Which suggests that we should probably rename the technique "Raijin-tsuki". ;-)

Seriously, there are other references to nukite in Greek literature: Draeger and Smith provide one example in their classic work Asian Fighting Arts. It's always been my suspicion that some of this knowledge diffused outward from Iran and Northern India (although it certainly may have originated in even earlier cultures). As the paper notes, boxing and wrestling were pretty popular among the Minoans and the Egyptians, as well.

As a lapsed classicist, I found this thread quite fascinating. Thanks!