Energy Suspension Body Mounts

Looking for a little info from those of you who have installed the energy suspension body mounts (or even the oem ones for that matter).

I recieved mine today at the shop, and let me start by saying.....what a joke! I paid 85.00 for the set that applies to 91-96 9c1/ taxi and race cars. It came in a clear shrink-wrap bag with a direction sheet that appears to have been photocopied 500 times!

Anyways....here is my question for anyone else that has experience with these mounts. They came with nothing more then the actual bushings, and steel washers. However, there is no steel sleeve insert like the oem bushings have to center the bolt (i know the washer kinda centers the bolts, but since the bushings arent 100% solid, cant they rock back-fourth?). I called Energy Suspension, and they told me I need to reuse as much hardware as possible. When I tried to explain to the guy that the oem mounts have the steel sleve molded into the bushing....he said "i don't know what to tell you. We don't offer any hardware."

So what I am getting at is, what have you guys done (if anything) to address this problem....furthermore....is it even a problem? I cant really remember the way our oem bushings are setup, but as far as I can recall, all of the gm bushings have a steel sleve for the bolt right?

I will post up some photos of the kit contents when I get home. I thought this was some super company lol. So far I've had pretty crappy packaging and customer support.

Pooge

Posts : 1700Join date : 2009-03-24

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:05 pm

reuse sleeves and bolts. I think I had 2 that were not worth reusing, just picked up a couple new ones.

Hello, I am still trying to learn how to post, as this is my my first attempt at this kind of thing, I am not a computer guy either. I will introduce myself after I learn how to put up pictures (and I have lots of them, especially from the machine shop where I make most of these modifications). New GM body bushings are NOT bonded like control arm bushings. I think its worth the small expense to buy new OEM bushings even if you use after market "rubbers". I then disassemble and glass bead the shells, prep-sol and paint them with por 15. Check the top of the chassis where the bushings sit for rust & wear that thins/weakens the material supporting the body connection. Then liberally coat/lubricate all parts with Quicksilver Perfect seal, < http://www.marinemegastore.com/product-product-MAR_92_342271.htm >. Run a good tap thru the captured floating nut plates in the body, and coat new GM bolts (still available) with Jet-Lube Marine Kopr anti-seize compound, < http://www.reddenmarine.com/marine-supplies.cfm/lubricants-antiseize/jet-lube-09702/marine-kopr-anti-seize-1-2-lb-.html > (regular anti seize WILL dry up and/or wash out) . . . Future archaeologists from distant planets will dig up these cars billions of years after our demise, and the body mounts will look the same as today! Remember to leave ALL body bolts slightly loose (including the radiator support bushings) so that you can use the factory alignment holes to properly position the body to the chassis. They are located on top of the left side chassis between the two cowl mounts, #s 1 & 2 in front and near the rear lower cntrl arm forward-most chassis anchor point, (bushing #4). There is a corresponding hole in the bottom of the body for alignment accuracy, (line the holes up plumb). Then sock down the body bolts to factory torque specification and finally re-check to see if the body chassis alignment shifted during the tightening sequence. If your chassis is not bent & all the control arm bushings are good (co-axially) you should see all the wheels evenly centered in their wheel wells, making it safer to put bigger tires on your car . You WILL notice an incredible improvement in how the car drives and feels. BTW, If my posts are to long, somebody should tell me what is considered appropriate. Thanks everyone.

GuestGuest

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:21 pm

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

BTW, If my posts are to long, somebody should tell me what is considered appropriate. Thanks everyone.

Your post are fine. They are packed with useful information, opinions and thoughts that are both helpful and informative.

bfurches

Posts : 1061Join date : 2010-04-20Age : 30Location : Springfield, MA

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:24 pm

sdstick- pm returned

machine-de-zine- lol.....no way man. Nothing wrong with the lengths of your posts. Very informative stuff. nice to see knowledgeable people step in.

I am most likely going to use the energy suspension mounts on the 96 shell. Since by 81 caprice is going to be an x275 car, I am going to take the dimensions of the energy suspension mounts and make solid aluminum ones out of some fresh stock on the lathe.

I like you're idea of the marine grade anti-seize ....would have never thought of that one.

sdstick

Posts : 4284Join date : 2009-03-20Location : Revere, MA

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:17 pm

bfurches wrote:

I like you're idea of the marine grade anti-seize ....would have never thought of that one.

Dont worry, I dont think even an archeologist will be able to find the remains of your cars... ............. Frame/Body alignment holes are 5/8 DIA same size as 1/2" copper pipe

machine-de-zine- lol.....no way man. Nothing wrong with the lengths of your posts. Very informative stuff. nice to see knowledgeable people step in.

I am most likely going to use the energy suspension mounts on the 96 shell. Since by 81 caprice is going to be an x275 car, I am going to take the dimensions of the energy suspension mounts and make solid aluminum ones out of some fresh stock on the lathe.

I like you're idea of the marine grade anti-seize ....would have never thought of that one.

A warning about using aluminum; < http://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm > Read this & consider taking steps to avoid sacrificial corrosion. I usually make body mounts out of Delrin (nylon, preferably glass fiber filled) or of hard teflon bar stock. No corrosion issues & functionally the same result. I still coat everything with Perfect Seal. I also put a thin kevlar cloth re-inforced sheet of softer rubber 0.125" thick to be somewhat compliant at the body to bushing interface, to eliminate squeaks and water trapping gaps. Also, you will still need to make the body bolt itself "go up solid" at the specified torque thru solid steel spacers, so make sure the thickness of the bushings are only slightly thicker than the "stack height" of the total bushing pack, including the chassis material thickness, so that you wind up with a properly pre-loaded connection. This is what keeps the bolt from loosening up. If you still like aluminum, give Mark Savitske a call at < http://www.scandc.com/products.htm > and tell him Glenn with the 96 9C1 sent you. He his at the TOP of the heap in terms of engineering "what works best" for our cars. Spend some time on his site and a whole world of really good stuff shall be revealed unto you! He does not specifically list much for the b-bodies, but most of these things can be made to work on our cars, I know this to be true because it has already been successfully done on my car! I believe most of the shells (the metal part) are the same dimensions even if they are from a completely different car or mount location, just check any new ones against your best surviving shell out of your car. BTW, In my humble opinion, a good body/chassis connection is paramount to achieving a good performing car, whether you're drag racing, road racing, pro-touring, street driving or auto-crossing. This body mount process deserves very careful deliberation & execution. I personally hate to see so many people struggle with all the issues that result by their not doing this stuff really right. Thanx for the encouragement! If there is anything you folks would like to see on the building of any of my modified cars, I would be happy to show, but first I would have to be instructed (step by step) on how to post photos, BTW, I am using iMac snow leopard.

Machine-De-Zine

Posts : 512Join date : 2010-11-16Age : 60Location : Wrentham

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:40 pm

bfurches wrote:

sdstick- pm returned

machine-de-zine- lol.....no way man. Nothing wrong with the lengths of your posts. Very informative stuff. nice to see knowledgeable people step in.

I am most likely going to use the energy suspension mounts on the 96 shell. Since by 81 caprice is going to be an x275 car, I am going to take the dimensions of the energy suspension mounts and make solid aluminum ones out of some fresh stock on the lathe.

I like you're idea of the marine grade anti-seize ....would have never thought of that one.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an x275 car?

Machine-De-Zine

Posts : 512Join date : 2010-11-16Age : 60Location : Wrentham

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:27 pm

bfurches wrote:

They came with nothing more then the actual bushings, and steel washers. However, there is no steel sleeve insert like the oem bushings have to center the bolt (i know the washer kinda centers the bolts, but since the bushings arent 100% solid, cant they rock back-fourth?). I called Energy Suspension, and they told me I need to reuse as much hardware as possible. When I tried to explain to the guy that the oem mounts have the steel sleve molded into the bushing....he said "i don't know what to tell you. We don't offer any hardware."

Just a thought about products engineered in California: . . . { It IS possible that SOMEBODY at energy suspension may have, just ONCE, seen a photograph of a rusty body mount bushing insert. But obviously, the traumatic event has mercifully vanished from his sunny, delicate memory. Therefore they continue to make JUST the bushings and CAN NOT EVEN IMAGINE WHY you would not simply re-use your perfectly good steel inserts! What if they came to N.E., and saw our rusting hulks?, they would suffer a nervous breakdown immediately and then they would spend the rest of their lives wandering aimlessly around some abandoned wing of the old Wrentham State Mental Institution. }

bfurches

Posts : 1061Join date : 2010-04-20Age : 30Location : Springfield, MA

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:07 pm

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an x275 car?

x275 is a newer class of drag racing. Its a restricted tire (275 drag radial), heads up class for 1/8th mile racing on a pro tree. Most of the field is high 4's to low 5's in the 1/8 (so about high 7's to low 8's in the 1/4).

x275.net for rules and regs.

...also thanks for the info on the body bushing. Never considered the corrosion aspect because our cars dont stay together long enough lol.

So far we have been 7.60 in the 1/4 on aluminum bushings (non b-body car)

Machine-De-Zine

Posts : 512Join date : 2010-11-16Age : 60Location : Wrentham

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:35 am

bfurches wrote:

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an x275 car?

x275 is a newer class of drag racing. Its a restricted tire (275 drag radial), heads up class for 1/8th mile racing on a pro tree. Most of the field is high 4's to low 5's in the 1/8 (so about high 7's to low 8's in the 1/4).

x275.net for rules and regs.

...also thanks for the info on the body bushing. Never considered the corrosion aspect because our cars dont stay together long enough lol.

So far we have been 7.60 in the 1/4 on aluminum bushings (non b-body car)

WOW, That IS very impressive! I checked out that site and it looks like a ton of fun. I would particularly love to see a B-Body run real hard in that series. Well, this is my day job. Our car is running NHRA Stock Eliminator H/SA. Its the the red 69 Nova pictured on the site. http://bbautomachine.com/stock-superstock.html I am not personally motivated by the actual drag racing scene. But I do love the process of solving any and all engine/drivetrain challenges that help our car and our customer's cars to be the very quickest & fastest in their racing endeavors. At night I work in the city repairing transit buses for the MTA system. Do you have rear control arm triangulating braces on your B-body chassis. If not, check these out (# NOS-7029-W) http://dickmillerracing.com/cgi-bin/sc/order.cgi?rd=1&storeid=*1c368efac09b01d7002547fa3a40e784&sbid=SSMSB1290318610.11118&prevlocation=http://dickmillerracing.com/store/page10.html Turns out, I cracked my B-Body chassis in several places before making a set for my car (as well as boxing the side frame rails), and now I see the braces can be bought on line.

bfurches

Posts : 1061Join date : 2010-04-20Age : 30Location : Springfield, MA

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:40 am

...Man that's too funny...at night I work for pvta/ satco on the gillig and rts busses lol. Small world.

Machine-De-Zine

Posts : 512Join date : 2010-11-16Age : 60Location : Wrentham

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:06 pm

bfurches wrote:

...Man that's too funny...at night I work for pvta/ satco on the gillig and rts busses lol. Small world.

Man, when the RTSs were new they were great to work on and the best driving bus. First we had the independent front suspension "04"s before switching to solid front beam axles. They were actually made by GM at that time. Ever notice how the parts books are set up the same way as all GM cars? Now we have articulated Novas, New Fliers, Orion 5s & 7s w/CNG, and we are finally moving away from Detroit Diesel 6V92s, series 50s & 60s in our fleet. BTW, I remember the PVTA from my Zoo-Mass@Amherst days. Just on a note of curiosity, Do you guys also call the SR-1 air valve (that activates the spring brake upon system pressure loss), the "FLORIDA VALVE"? http://www.anythingtruck.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Category_Code=HTP-AIRB&Product_Code=061-286364X Sorry to drift so far off topic. But, it is indeed a small world! Next thing your going to tell me is that you are a Funk/R&B bass player looking to get into a band, as we are loosing our guy due to his moving to Maryland.

Cadet57

Posts : 4481Join date : 2010-03-14Age : 29Location : Chicopee, MA

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:23 pm

IMPALADAKID wrote:

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

BTW, If my posts are to long, somebody should tell me what is considered appropriate. Thanks everyone.

Your post are fine. They are packed with useful information, opinions and thoughts that are both helpful and informative.

If only everyone else could post as well

sdstick

Posts : 4284Join date : 2009-03-20Location : Revere, MA

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:47 pm

[quote="Machine-De-Zine"]

bfurches wrote:

....my Zoo-Mass@Amherst days.......

But, it is indeed a small world! Next thing your going to tell me is that you are a Funk/R&B bass player looking to get into a band, as we are loosing our guy due to his moving to Maryland.

No Funk/R&B bass here, but I was at Zoo-Mass Amherst 77 & 78 Sylvan then Orchard Hill...until we parted ways....We had keys to the Top of the Campus, abused te Blue Wall etc.,,etc.,,etc

But, it is indeed a small world! Next thing your going to tell me is that you are a Funk/R&B bass player looking to get into a band, as we are loosing our guy due to his moving to Maryland.

No Funk/R&B bass here, but I was at Zoo-Mass Amherst 77 & 78 Sylvan then Orchard Hill...until we parted ways....We had keys to the Top of the Campus, abused te Blue Wall etc.,,etc.,,etc

Heh, my buddies lived in both those buildings. Good times... Good times... The ones I can remember at least

Machine-De-Zine

Posts : 512Join date : 2010-11-16Age : 60Location : Wrentham

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:09 pm

[quote="sdstick"]

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

bfurches wrote:

....my Zoo-Mass@Amherst days.......

But, it is indeed a small world! Next thing your going to tell me is that you are a Funk/R&B bass player looking to get into a band, as we are loosing our guy due to his moving to Maryland.

No Funk/R&B bass here, but I was at Zoo-Mass Amherst 77 & 78 Sylvan then Orchard Hill...until we parted ways....We had keys to the Top of the Campus, abused te Blue Wall etc.,,etc.,,etc

Butterfield 75-76. Were you there when the girl jumped off the 26 floor library? I don't remember exactly when, but I saw it happen. She landed 60 feet from where I was was standing. BTW, Did you get snowed in there during "the great storm" in February? I had just purchased a new F-350 4X4, and that storm paid for the truck, the dump body & the 8' Fisher power angle plow! I don't think I slept for that whole week. (I know, I know, off topic again!, sorry fellas)

Last edited by Machine-De-Zine on Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

GuestGuest

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:20 pm

[quote="Machine-De-Zine"]

sdstick wrote:

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

bfurches wrote:

....my Zoo-Mass@Amherst days.......

But, it is indeed a small world! Next thing your going to tell me is that you are a Funk/R&B bass player looking to get into a band, as we are loosing our guy due to his moving to Maryland.

No Funk/R&B bass here, but I was at Zoo-Mass Amherst 77 & 78 Sylvan then Orchard Hill...until we parted ways....We had keys to the Top of the Campus, abused te Blue Wall etc.,,etc.,,etc

Butterfield 75-76. Were you there when the girl jumped off the 26 floor library? I don't remember exactly when, but I saw it happen. She landed 60 feet from where I was was standing.

I threw up in the top floor of the Jefferson building.

Machine-De-Zine

Posts : 512Join date : 2010-11-16Age : 60Location : Wrentham

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:31 pm

I dont remember where the Jefferson building was. We were kind of isolated at Butterfield because we had our own dining room in the basement. Consequently we didn't get to mingle too much with non-Butterfielders.

GuestGuest

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:57 pm

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

I dont remember where the Jefferson building was. We were kind of isolated at Butterfield because we had our own dining room in the basement. Consequently we didn't get to mingle too much with non-Butterfielders.

My bad. I meant "James".

I think I was watching something on tv that mentioned Jefferson while I was typing.

Machine-De-Zine

Posts : 512Join date : 2010-11-16Age : 60Location : Wrentham

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:34 pm

IMPALADAKID wrote:

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

I dont remember where the Jefferson building was. We were kind of isolated at Butterfield because we had our own dining room in the basement. Consequently we didn't get to mingle too much with non-Butterfielders.

My bad. I meant "James".

I think I was watching something on tv that mentioned Jefferson while I was typing.

Ok, I think that was next to Hampshire Dining Commons behind Melville in Southwest. Back in da-day, I took that very same corner in a brand new 1975 Toyota wagon way too hard and the front left wheel buckled under and we slid into one of those giant U-Mass granite curbs. Almost totaled the car. Somebody in my car claims that we drove over and slid on some vomit! . . . Joking of course!

GuestGuest

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:11 am

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

IMPALADAKID wrote:

Machine-De-Zine wrote:

I dont remember where the Jefferson building was. We were kind of isolated at Butterfield because we had our own dining room in the basement. Consequently we didn't get to mingle too much with non-Butterfielders.

My bad. I meant "James".

I think I was watching something on tv that mentioned Jefferson while I was typing.

Ok, I think that was next to Hampshire Dining Commons behind Melville in Southwest. Back in da-day, I took that very same corner in a brand new 1975 Toyota wagon way too hard and the front left wheel buckled under and we slid into one of those giant U-Mass granite curbs. Almost totaled the car. Somebody in my car claims that we drove over and slid on some vomit! . . . Joking of course!

Yes it was next to Hamshire hall. I did not live on campus, but I spent a many friday night in James or emerson. One night I even threw up in front of a old toyota.LOL. I attended there back in the early 90s after I left the navy.

Oh wait. Back to the topic. I have nothing for imput eccept to say this. The real reason ES does not include steel sleves is. When that kit was designed, the cars were some what new, and rust was not an issue. They did not design it based on a rusted car. So they probably figured, they could save everyone money by utilizing the factory inserts.

Machine-De-Zine

Posts : 512Join date : 2010-11-16Age : 60Location : Wrentham

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:55 pm

[

I really think that the making of molds for just pouring urethane "biscuits" is so simple & cheap that it was in their best interests to do ONLY that if they could get away with it. I spent a number of years in a specialized tool and die company where we made automated production machinery for various manufacturers. Creating the tooling to form those shells is MUCH more involved (read expensive). There are many different shapes & sizes for all the different applications. Even if you have new factory control arm bushings to harvest the shells from to "upgrade' to urethane, you STILL have to remove the tenaciously bonded rubber from it. A major pain in the arse. I recall all the front lower control arms on Chevelle/Monte/GTO/LeMans/etc.rearmost OVAL bushings that were such a nuisance. I still have a stash of A-Body front lowers with the coveted small round rear lower front arm bushings that some Buicks used! Personally though, I will NOT put those urethane bushings in my cars. As it was so eloquently stated above here somewhere, and I quote "SQUEAK - SQUEAK"! And the other issues of cold flow deformation, ozone & chemical degradation, the fading of those pretty colors, then crumbling apart, & most importantly in the rear control arms, especially the uppers, a lack of the necessary compliance like the factory rubber has. I can't tell you how many rear upper arms I have repaired/rebuilt or replaced due to those urethane inserts destroying the holes in the arm at the top of the axle mount. As for body mounts, its either stock or solid IMHO. For front control arms, its hard to beat the functional simplicity of of SPC arms with the nylon pivots on the bottom & HD rubber on top, and they can be found at http://www.scandc.com , (Savitske Classic & Custom) You will not find a more knowledgable or helpful guy anywhere for our car's suspension improvements. I just spoke to Mark Savitske on the phone & his server is temporarily down so if you can not get on the site now, call him @ (610) 346 8154. For rears I like the Currie Johnny-Joint with urethane packed articulating "Heim-joint" style ends that are used in Pro-Fab Baja race trucks, or the Chris Alston ChassisWorks version with nylon packing which I think are better for garaged race cars. When people tell me they can't locate the johnny joint on the Currie web-site I understand that they are not easy to find, but they are there, complete, made specifically for our B-Bodies! . . . http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/categories.aspx?id=1232 . Then, go to: (CURRIE-BUILT) > (CRATE-REARENDS) > (CURRECTRAC) > (B-BODY) > (91-96) http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/productsRE.aspx?id=3471 . . . http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/productsRE.aspx?id=3472 These ARE THE BEST! With these upper arms I recommend using the factory bushing on top of the axle housing to avoid binding, OR, in a fabricated housing, use the Johnny-Joint conversion there as well. My apologies for going on & on yet again.

sdstick

Posts : 4284Join date : 2009-03-20Location : Revere, MA

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:06 pm

A whole other thread, but dont rule out C3Fab now that they've hit the marketCheck em out

A whole other thread, but dont rule out C3Fab now that they've hit the marketCheck em out

Yes, those are very well made! The Johnny-Joint thread size is 0.750" on the C3Fab unit,(& I like that they use chrome-moly!) where as the Currie is 1.250" threaded J/Js . . http://www.shop.c3fab.com/GM-B-BODY-91-96-FULLY-BOXED-ADJUSTABLE-WITH-JOHNNY-JOINTS-GMB-9196-FBLAUJJ.htm . . I am glad to see someone out there is actually reading my tiresome blathering! Also check out UMI and SPOHN.

...Man that's too funny...at night I work for pvta/ satco on the gillig and rts busses lol. Small world.

Man, when the RTSs were new they were great to work on and the best driving bus. First we had the independent front suspension "04"s before switching to solid front beam axles. They were actually made by GM at that time. Ever notice how the parts books are set up the same way as all GM cars? Now we have articulated Novas, New Fliers, Orion 5s & 7s w/CNG, and we are finally moving away from Detroit Diesel 6V92s, series 50s & 60s in our fleet. BTW, I remember the PVTA from my Zoo-Mass@Amherst days. Just on a note of curiosity, Do you guys also call the SR-1 air valve (that activates the spring brake upon system pressure loss), the "FLORIDA VALVE"? http://www.anythingtruck.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Category_Code=HTP-AIRB&Product_Code=061-286364X Sorry to drift so far off topic. But, it is indeed a small world! Next thing your going to tell me is that you are a Funk/R&B bass player looking to get into a band, as we are loosing our guy due to his moving to Maryland.

Man I jumped back into this super late. Glad to see everyone is getting along lol.

Anyways. no...the florida valve is the first Ive heard of lol. We still call it the sr1. Seems like you guys have quite the collection of vehicles. We are jammed pack with junk gillings and rotted rts's lol. The cummins motors in these gilligs are horrible (aspecially the red models). We had one fresh from cali eat a piston (less then 3k miles).

I REALLY wish detroit was back in the game. I will take a series 50/ 60 any day over the new cummins. The holset turbos don't hold a damn over the garretts either....

...and no....I don't play funk lol. However I did play Bass for several years...and I sure miss my washburn xb120....

Now...as for the topic on hand lol....

c3 fab does make a really nice piece for the money....def. no current comparison on the market imho!

sdstick

Posts : 4284Join date : 2009-03-20Location : Revere, MA

Subject: Re: Energy Suspension Body Mounts Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:05 pm

bfurches wrote:

Now...as for the topic on hand lol....

c3 fab does make a really nice piece for the money....def. no current comparison on the market imho!