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Curious: Why are heelhooks so feared? It seems more so than a kneebar or other leg lock.

Leg locks are scary because they're hard to heal from right? Doesn't that also happen during an armlock though? Or just not as easily?

I don't even know if I'm allowed to ask here as this is the "advanced" grappling forum.

Heel hooks are discouraged because you feel pain after damage has been done, the point of submission is when you feel tension in your knee joint. This is different from an achillies lock or toe hold where you (or at least I) feel pain before any real injury has occured.

That combined with a very long rehab time for knee injuries is why they are either highly discouraged or banned out right. Example being my judo school where on fridays we use and drill leg submissions, while we drill the heel hook so that we know where the point of submission is we do not allow it in rolling.

Heel hooks are discouraged because you feel pain after damage has been done, the point of submission is when you feel tension in your knee joint. This is different from an achillies lock or toe hold where you (or at least I) feel pain before any real injury has occured.

That combined with a very long rehab time for knee injuries is why they are either highly discouraged or banned out right. Example being my judo school where on fridays we use and drill leg submissions, while we drill the heel hook so that we know where the point of submission is we do not allow it in rolling.

Unfortunately I would have to say you were right but also very wrong. Most people don't know how to throw on a heel hook. It's a similar situation with a Kimura/Lower key lock/Ude Garami: Is it a shoulder lock or an arm lock? Technically it's one or the other or both depending on your understanding of the leverage.

A heel hook is similar. I can dislocate the ankle or I can pressure the knee. Most people who learn this maneuver do truly don't understand the leverage. They end up twisting the knee instead of attacking the ankle. Then we go into several variations of inside and outside heel hook (inverted heel hook for for you rebels). One will stress the ACL while the other with stress the MCL and Meniscus.

Then you have the various versions of these locks which come in the form of obnoxious toe holds, alternate grips, and hidden pressure. So heel hooks are outlawed because of the detestation to the leg and the universal ignorance due to that fear.

Omega you are correct of course. I suppose I should have mentioned that proper knee control allows for the heel hook to attack the ankle (one of the things my teacher mentions, maybe I should listen more hahaha).

Unfortunately I would have to say you were right but also very wrong. Most people don't know how to throw on a heel hook. It's a similar situation with a Kimura/Lower key lock/Ude Garami: Is it a shoulder lock or an arm lock? Technically it's one or the other or both depending on your understanding of the leverage.

A heel hook is similar. I can dislocate the ankle or I can pressure the knee. Most people who learn this maneuver do truly don't understand the leverage. They end up twisting the knee instead of attacking the ankle. Then we go into several variations of inside and outside heel hook (inverted heel hook for for you rebels). One will stress the ACL while the other with stress the MCL and Meniscus.

Then you have the various versions of these locks which come in the form of obnoxious toe holds, alternate grips, and hidden pressure. So heel hooks are outlawed because of the detestation to the leg and the universal ignorance due to that fear.

Good breakdown, Omega.

One thing I'm a bit confused about is when I've heard about the meniscus stress/pressure on heelhooks, how does this actually occur?

I know meniscus tears happen from shearing force when weight/pressure is upon the limb like turning quickly in basketball or field sport and for whatever reason the lower leg stays still and the shear happens on the cartilidge. How does this type of force get generated in the heelhook? Or is it a different type of stress? I know Gokor mentions it every time he does a heelhook in his series, but I thought he was meaning the MCL. And then I've read a few things online about it, but still couldn't conceptualise how it occurs in actuality?

I have a partial tear to my medial meniscus in my left knee, not large enough as yet for operation and doesn't lock out or hurt most of the time (crosses balls). Don't really know when it happened in training, but think it was off some drills with whitebelts passing and they yanked on a foot/leg while I was turning out and think if I can understand how the heelhook attacks the meniscus it might help me understand how the damage occured to me outside of the pressure scenario while standing and an actual submission and avoid it as much as possible...

I could be wrong, but if a heel hook is actually attacking the heel, it primarily puts leverage/pressure on the heel and ankle and primarily torques around that joint.

If the heel hook is attacking the knee/shin, it puts leverage on the tibia/fibula and twists, which also twists the knee on a plane in which it was never ever meant to move. This is why that type of heel hook usually breaks the shinbones or tears things in the knee (or both) depending on what gives first.

If you watch the episode of "rolled up" on youtube with Sambo Steve, he goes over leg locks in a really informative way and examines the leverages etc.

One thing I'm a bit confused about is when I've heard about the meniscus stress/pressure on heelhooks, how does this actually occur?

Originally Posted by Krijgsman

I could be wrong, but if a heel hook is actually attacking the heel, it primarily puts leverage/pressure on the heel and ankle and primarily torques around that joint.

If the heel hook is attacking the knee/shin, it puts leverage on the tibia/fibula and twists, which also twists the knee on a plane in which it was never ever meant to move. This is why that type of heel hook usually breaks the shinbones or tears things in the knee (or both) depending on what gives first.

If you watch the episode of "rolled up" on youtube with Sambo Steve, he goes over leg locks in a really informative way and examines the leverages etc.

You pretty much summed it up. You are either rotating the knee laterally or medially (outside or inside) while the knee is flexed (bent). This causes the tibia (shin bone) to go beyond it's normal range of motion and the ligature of the knee joint to get overstretched and/or tear. Like previously stated, you can also adjust the leverage to rotate the ankle as opposed to the knee.

It really is complex if you want to break down the whole thing. Better to have it done to you and feel the pressure being applied and practice proper body mechanics.

You pretty much summed it up. You are either rotating the knee laterally or medially (outside or inside) while the knee is flexed (bent). This causes the tibia (shin bone) to go beyond it's normal range of motion and the ligature of the knee joint to get overstretched and/or tear. Like previously stated, you can also adjust the leverage to rotate the ankle as opposed to the knee.

It really is complex if you want to break down the whole thing. Better to have it done to you and feel the pressure being applied and practice proper body mechanics.

Mainly I think I just had issue with the semantics of 'force' as I'm thinking direct force from top to bottom under a load, and while I understand shearing force from rotational torsion I had thought it not enough by itself to cause damage to the meniscus /cartilage itself without also a top to bottom force as well:

E.G. in the Toe hold or heel hook if we are just lying stationary.

But after taking a look through those slides and thinking about it more, my original thoughts were too simple and didn't take in enough of the complexity of balancing forces through the knee even without a standing directional top down force.