Sunday brought another awards show with Star Trek Into Darkness celebs presenting, this time it was Simon Pegg and Alice Eve at the BAFTA Film Awards in London. On the red carpet Eve weighed in on the most persistent rumor about co-star Benedict Cumberbatch’s character, and Pegg said he expects JJ Abrams (who is set to direct the next Star Wars movie) to return and direct a 3rd Star Trek film. Details below plus videos and images of the pair at the BAFTAs. UPDATED: Pegg tweets clarification on JJ directing 3rd Star Trek

Alice Eve: Cumberbatch Not Play Khan

On Sunday night the British Academy of Film and Television Arts Film Awards were held in London and Star Trek’s Simon Pegg was in attendance. Pegg (a BAFTA-nominee in 2002) was there to present Best Adapted Screenplay along with Jennifer Garner. And Pegg’s Star Trek Into Darkness co-star Alice Eve was also at the BAFTAs to present the Costume and Hair and Make-up awards.

On the red carpet Eve was asked about her work in Star Trek and specifically about the reports that Benedict Cumberbatch is playing Khan (the secret identity of John Harrison) in Into Darkness. Eve flat out denied (to BAFTAonline) the reports saying "he’s not playing Khan." Watch the interview below.

And well-known geek and fan of both Star Wars and Star Trek talked about JJ Abrams directing for both franchises. Pegg noted to AbsoluteRadio "JJ is the perfect choice for [Star Wars], I just hope he doesn’t forget us Trekkies in the corner." And later in the video Pegg quickly said "He will do Star Trek 3" in reply to a question on if he believes Abrams will be back.

I see where Pegg is coming from, as a hard core Trekkie I would hate to see Abrams treat Star Trek as a jilted lover now, which I fear he might do. I personally don’t care if he directs the next one or not, as it is Star Trek I am a fan of more, not JJ Abrams, Trek was there before him and it will be there after him.

I just want Trek treated with love and respect, not like a jilted lover.

Alice Eve said “he (BC) is not playing Khan!”
and Simon Pegg said “he (JJ) will do the third (Star Trek film)”. He was quite dismissive of any notions suggesting otherwise, ie that JJ Abrams would not direct the next Star Trek film.

I guess JJ won’t just need to worry about the possibility of being kidnapped by Chris Pine. I suspect that Simon Pegg may also lend a helping hand…:)

To me it doesn’t matter if Abrams directs the thirteenth Trek film or not. I will scream if its another villain out for revenge though.

As the date approaches I am beginning to warm up my excitement a bit more. Because Abrams take is not as in depth as the prime universe I will admit I am more looking forward to season 3 of TNG on blu ray more , as that is Trek I love, but as we get closer to the release date of Into Darkness my excitement is growing.

To say there is no evidence “at all” seems a little erroneous. Latino Review is among the most reliable sites in this field and have never budged from Khan. When it comes to Star Trek, I would wager there is no closer site to the creative team than TrekMovie who have ALSO come out with correlating info.

Then there is weaker, circumstantial evidence. The latino casting process that predated Cumberbatch’s casting, the “Khan” slip from Quinto.

I’m not saying there’s a smoking gun, but there is more evidence for Khan than any other canon character, as of now.

Ridiculous? That’s a strong term. One thing is certain, two reputable journalists in this field have staked out on Khan. Now, I think we can assume they didn’t do it for sh**s and giggles, since they value their reputations and will have other things to write about once Star Trek Into Darkness is showing on TV.

Could it be they are being lead astray by their sources? Sure. But in what little we have seen of this movie thus far, a significant portion has corroborated the idea. The hands on the glass clearly evoke WOK. Even if the scene ends up having a different spin, it is no accident it is presented as it is. Not Khan specific, but deliberately pointing us at his movie. The drip of Cumberbatch’s precious few lines have all been Khan-tastic, up to a point. Vengeance. Superiority.

I concede, that we may be seeing what we want to see. Equally plausible: perhaps Bad Robot are cherry picking misleading lines knowing the baggage we bring.

Also we should consider the chamber scene in the trailer. Something that appears to be pods consistent with cryogenic sleep.

There is no one piece of evidence which Khan-firms (heh) it’s him. But if we take Bob Orci at his word that the villain is canonical, we must surely agree that Khan is the best fit for what we have thus far.

Now, what we have is a theory. A theory that happens to fit the facts (to quote a bloke I like) but on the balance of probability, we can conclude that either:

a) It’s Khan
b) It’s not Khan, and significant steps are being made via leaks and publicity materials to keep the “It’s Khan” theory alive, to obscure the true identity.

One thing I am certain of: come closing credits, no one will refer to him as ‘John Harrison’

There has never been any real evidence that Khan was going to be in this movie. What little some might suggest as being evidence is circumstantial only. Just because the Latino Review insist on repeating a rumour, a wish, does not make it a fact. The fact that the studio were casting around for Latino actors at the time is at best, circumstantial. Benecio Del Toro would have made a very fine TOS Klingon!

What we have had is rumour, rumour and more rumour, inuendo and other quite specious nonsense over the last three or so years.

Now that three of the Trek actors have, in their way, denied that Khan is being played by Benedict Cumberbatch, people now wonder if they are lying. Seriously, WTF? The reality is that even if turns out that Khan is in the movie and played by Benedict Cumberbatch (very, very doubtful), that fact does, in no way, validate any of the rumour and other specious claims made in this respect. If this were a court of law, all this hearsay would be thrown out for the nonsense that it is!!! Get it!

Leave off with Khan, Joachim and the Botany Bay stuff. Enough already.

I enjoy this villain speculation myself don’t get me wrong but then we are so occupied by who Cumberbatch is playing that we do not actually appreciate that we finally have a bad-ass villain in this movie. Sorry, Eric Bana, but yeah, Nero was lame. Not your fault, that is what origin movies are about. I mean, I just saw the trailer again in the movie house and Cumberbatch’s voice is glorious! The big game ad wherein he said ’Everything’ is spine-chilling. He is evil! Does it really matter now who he really is? We have a scary and I could not emphasize it enough, scary antagonist and the same crew we learned to love in the first. I don’t care who the villain is anymore. Just, bring it on!

Yes, JJ. If you do not direct the third movie I will p*ss on everything you love (including Star Wars). Haha! Not really. But yeah, I think he should still direct it. Or it will just be seen as complete abandonment (even if he still produces).

I am gratified to learn that there is no legal standard to satisfy on a Star Trek message board. I will, with your permission, feel so empowered to continue to speculate as long as my free time and inclination permits.

I do not think Anthony Pascale and Latino Review are in the business of making wishes in the guise of trusted sources. I assess their records and conclude that either this smoke has an accompanying fire, or smoke is being blown up their arses by Bad Robot.

In either case, I give their word credibility on the subject. I believe they report in good faith. I am hopeful that Khan is NOT the villain (I have a hankering for new-Universe Sybok) but I think it is.

Having him turn around 20 mins before the end of the film and go OH PS I WAS KHAN TA DA !! will be completely meaningless, pointless, stupid, lazy and just pandering to the masses who just want familiarity.

Having him say hes; ;Khan 20 mins before the end WON’T make the preceding 90 mins any better.

If you want to see Khan in a ST movie so badly – go rent The Wrath Of Khan.

WHY does it HAVE to be Khan ? Oooh maybe because it’s the second film in the series ?

Nero wasn’t V’ger.

By the same logic – whoever is cast as the villain in Star Trek 3 MUST be Kruge. Even if he’s not even klingon.

How does Abrams description of Harrison as

” An average person who works for Starfleet ” describe Khan IN ANY WAY ?

@56. Seriously, DM, a couple months back your were saying Gary Mitchell. If STID involves the Botany Bay and Khan to some extent, then who was more right here over the last couple of years — those of us who saw some evidence point to a Khan story, or those of you who decided a couple weeks ago that the story was somehow related to the Khan story?

The Johnny-Come-Lateley’s never get to write the history books, dude. Red Dead Ryan should be commended on identifying STID as related to Khan nearly two years ago when others laughed at him/us.

I think and this is just my theory,
Harrison and April(most likely played by P. Weller) are co-horts,
There could very easily be a reference to Khan, but consider this if there is we have no clue how important it is to the story.

Khan if involved could wind up on the cutting room floor like Victor Garber’s Klingon in the last movie.

Well I said it could be Joaquim quite early — as early as you said it was Khan. So if it turns out Harrison IS another BB member other than Khan, that would make my guess more accurate than yours from the git go.

But the thing is you have to have evidence, and it has never been unambiguous. As I said many times, evidence that *looks like* it points to Khan can point just as plausibly to other things, but I never abandoned the Botany Bay-centric story because of what Damon and Bob said, i.e., that they wanted to end ST.09 on a shot of the Botany Bay, and Bob who said they did the story they always wanted to do.

But the way you play the game is you have to hit the target. You don’t get half the points for almost hitting it. You guys were too sure of yourselves too soon. I saw the same evidence you did, but I also recognized it wasn’t enough to call it, and I think I was more right than you guys, although my intention has never been to be more or less right than anyone else, but merely to figure it out, which your kind of certainty is an obstacle to doing, which is why I rarely feel it.

You in particular, MJ, were very quick to gloat about how right you were and claim vindication.

For me? Meh.

You guys may get ridiculed, but I’m not going to be the one to do it. You made a mistake jumping to conclusions too fast, which is understandable and forgivable. That’s not what’s going to make people take shots at you however. Some folks will ridicule you now because you were so quick to gloat about being right and everyone else wrong.

Seriously, some folk here need to take a very deep breath and step back. What the )*$( does it matter if BC is playing Khan or not? It’s a story. It’s not real. And investing your identity in being right is not healthy. Worse, it makes for a very nasty environment on this discussion list, when some people go so tribal and aggressive, and shout down everyone who doesn’t agree with them. The only people who know are the people who made the film. Everything is else is nothing but speculation. Which is fine, until the bullying and shouting start.

I’m new around here. This should be a welcoming place, not a place where a few strident voices try to make themselves boss cocky.

@7. I’ve never been convinced that Khan, as a character, would make an appearance, or that Abrams was remaking TWOK. I’m tending to agree, though, that it is possible that the story could be centered around the Eugenics Wars. We don’t need Khan, per se, but others from the Eugenics era might have survived or had gone underground. Khan only cortrolled a portion of the world, so there were others in the movement. In this universe, it could be their story to be told….in which case, outside of drive, ability, and backstory thre is nothing linking it to the Space Seed and WOK stories. I could live with that….

If I admit defeat now, I’m still going to get mocked and ridiculed. Did I gloat too early? Quite possibly. But backtracking now won’t do any good. Especially as there is still a chance that Khan is the villain, at least until proven otherwise.

If I admit that I’m wrong right now, I’m still going to get the same level of mockery and ridicule after the movie comes out as I would if I don’t admit to the (potential) errors of my ways.

Hence, I shall stand by my Khan prediction until proven otherwise. Because I have to.

Yep, I may end up going down with the ship, and with little dignity, but it’s too late to turn back now. The ship is half-way across the Atlantic ocean. Yes, there is the possibility of the ship hitting the proverbial iceberg.

But, we’re too far into the game to start over, or to wipe the slate clean.

And oh, yeah, if I’m right about Khan, very few people here will give me, MJ, K-7, Basement Blogger and the other few who predicted him being the villain any credit at all.

I bet April lost his family to something and then fond ou that Star Fleet was sitting on the Botany Bay with its wealth of augments that could cure disease, etc. he gets ahold of them and uses the tech on John Harrison who joins Starfleet to infiltrate. They want to take Starfleet down to bring mankind Into a new age, yada yada yada. Kirk loses someone in the initial strike and goes after them. The rebels plan to awake the sleepers to usher in the new age. It’s a race against the clock for Kirk to stop them. In the final moments Khan awakes (via Cgi tech to look the same), before Kirk saves the day by exploding the base to kingdom come. He returns home and is promoted to admiral and we see a new Enterprise A in the final moments. Did I miss anything?

I actually think there’s a good chance it’s not Khan. Common sense says the vilian is Khan, but wouldn’t it be amazing if the whole time a good contingent of people are thinking Harrison is Khan…it turns out he isn’t Khan?

That, to me, is the bigger trick. Not keeping it secret that it’s Khan, but making it seem like it very well could be. Because, really, if BC is portraying Khan, then it’s one of the worst kept secrets in Hollywood these days.

Interesting tidbit on April from ST-Early Voyages anthology of stories:

“A unique version of April appeared in the final issues of Star Trek: Early Voyages where he appeared as a stubborn and extremely militaristic person, who ordered an attack against an unknown ship that was making provocative moves against the Enterprise, despite the fact that Number One was in command. The enemy counter-attacked, leaving Number One injured and April in command. The ending is unknown since the series ended on a cliffhanger.”

Well, if Harrison isn’t Khan or some variation on Khan, they sure made him resemble Khan in every conceivable way. I think she’s just doing her job saying he’s not Khan. Or he’s not Khan, but only in some technical or semantic sense.

Alice looks perfect in that little black dress. I’m glad she’s blunt and to the point as well. Maybe the geeks wearing blinders will finally wake up? Hmmm… Naaaah! The Khan crowd will still insist he’s Khan after they see the movie. Idiots.

We in the Khan Faction, have analyzed the evidence and have deduced that Benedict Cumberbatch is Khan. I want to make this clear, just because we think it’s Khan, doesn’t mean all of us think it’s a good idea. Anyway, for our estimation, we’ve been called idiots and others have questioned our intelligence. Oy Vey. All that for just deducing it’s Khan. You would think we were saying nice things about Rick Berman. :-) By the way, still no retraction from TrekMovie for its April story that BC is Khan.

PLAUSIBLE DENIAL

But is it possible that Ms. Eve can deny it’s Khan even if true, or are there instances where an actor denies she is playing a roll to the press? Yes to both counts. First, BC is playing John Harrison. That could be an Alias for Khan. Sorry for that. But Ms. Eve could now deny that BC is playing Khan, just like Pegg did before. But has there been an instance where an actor denied she was playing a role and it turned out that she was? Yes.

THE NAME IS MONEYPENNY, EVE MONEYPENNY

Actress Naomie Harris is the poster child for playing characters who are not what they seem. In Pirates of the Caribbean: At The Worlds End (2007) she played Tia. Tia turned out to be the sea goddess Calypso.

Harris also shot down the story that she was playing Moneypenny in the new James Bond film, “Skyfall.” Here’s her comment.

“The idea of me being Moneypenny was a good, racy rumour. But Eve is not remotely office-bound. She gets to see plenty of action. That meant a lot of gun training. ” Link.

So Harris was able to say 1) it’s a rumor that I’m Moneypenny and 2) can’t be because my character is not office bound. So I’m not Moneypenny. And guess who she plays in the movie? Moneypenny.

YEP. I’VE BEEN WRONG BEFORE

Hey, I’ll admit it. I’m human. Will make mistakes. If it happens with STID, I’ll say, “I was wrong. You guys in the Gorgon Group (whatever faction) were right. Congratulations.” But until I see the film, I think the evidence points to Khan. Come May, we’ll find out along with Kirk who is John Harrison, the superhuman who has come back to earth for revenge.

BC is a shapeshifter (like the villain rumours coincidentally) a retcon Garth of Izar, but with better SFX!! ( as Bob Orci said, it will be like his face melted when the “Transformation” takes place on-screen). Also the plot for Trans4mers BTW!

Check the TOS episode “Whom God’s Destroy”. In the trailer Kirk is not always Kirk. He is not Khan but he is trying to bring Khan back for the 3rd movie. Things will end in an unresolved ending in a dark place ala “Empire Strikes Back” like the producers said.

The sequel will then have to be released in less than four years or maybe even two. JJ will not direct but Bad Robot and Skydance will produce. The same thing happened with MI Ghopst Protocol and that turned out just great IMHO. Just get Brad “Big” Bird on board!! Now that would be one sweet rolercoaster ride, I will have to buckle up before the movie starts so as not to fall out of my seat!!

I was always in the camp that Cumberbatch is not Khan. Perhaps if Benicio del Toro had been cast it would have been a different story, but Cumberbatch is not even the right ethnic background (neither Hispanic like Montalban or Sikh like Khan). Nothing fit correctly.

For now, I accept he is John Harrison. It appears he has a long career as a Starfleet officer and to me it seems unlikely he would be operating under an alias all that time. Not to say it’s impossible, but it’s just not jumping out at me as a plot device.

My guess is that it has something to do with what another poster on another board noted from something he heard. That Augments are involved, but more in a supporting role to something this John Harrison is involved with. I think it unlikely is Harrison is trying to use supermen for his own purposes that he would awaken or try to use Khan.

Honestly, does anyone here think Khan would be taking orders from anyone else. It would be more likely that Khan would kill Harrison and take over. It’s pretty clear that Harrison is in charge of whatever he is doing.

Of course, it’s certainly possible Augments are not involved at all. In a way, it’s still all just fan speculation. There’s a lot of evidence pointing to Augments, but that could all be disinformation. Abrams and co. never did confirm Khan’s supermen or any other Augments are involved.

The beauty of this is that when Harrison finds and frees Khan at the end of the movie (because Cumberbatch is certainly not Khan – although an Augment himself) you’re not even going to see his face. So they can wait another three years to find the perfect actor to play him.

Has anyone here contemplated the notion that *part* of the much-storied delay in getting Trek 2 off the ground could have been due to a rewrite necessitated by the inability to get Del Toro to play Khan, hence forcing a possibly substantial alteration to the story that may include Khan *conceptually* if not literally?

I know, I know, probably a bunch of bunk, but I remember a great deal of info during the “dead time” about, on the one hand, a story was nearly ready, but then it wasn’t, and then we heard about Del Toro negotiations breaking down, then Abrams and crew were so busy they couldn’t do Trek for six (or three or whatever) more months…?

Sure seems simpler to me to believe they were going to do an alternate Khan story, couldn’t get the “right” actor for Khan, and then had to rewrite the story. Just a theory, that happens to fit the facts :)

“Has anyone here contemplated the notion that *part* of the much-storied delay in getting Trek 2 off the ground could have been due to a rewrite necessitated by the inability to get Del Toro to play Khan, hence forcing a possibly substantial alteration to the story that may include Khan *conceptually* if not literally? ”
_____

Since you asked, I personally have not contemplated that notion.

As you might know, I could never contemplate the very notion that Hispanic actors were ever considered to play a man from Northern India…probably a Sikh.

Understand….Not at all getting into the relative propriety of such a casting move, just saying don’t think it would be a Hollyfwood first for a story to get rewritten because an actor of “first choice” (good or bad) wasn’t available.

I am in the crowd saying her dress was not that flattering. Her bustline is squished down. But also, Pegg’s choice to wear a skinny lapel tuxedo with a wide bow tie? Yikes. Both pieces should have been somewhere in the middle, width wise. That said, I think both actors are great at what they do and I respect them.

How many times am I going to have to vacillate between Khan and John before the premiere????

It’s possible that both Pegg and Eve are employing misinformation. It’s also possible, more possible, I think, that denying that it is Khan is their own heavy handed way of maintaining secrecy. If you’re on record as saying it’s not Khan, if you let Khan slip by accident, you can always deny it.

My only question is, if it’s not Khan, then who is it, since it’s a canon character? It’s obviously not John, because there is no established John Harrison. This puts Joachim/Son of Khan/Augment back into play,of course, as the frontrunner if they’re speaking the truth.

I would much rather that if Kirk has to earn his captaincy in military conflict that it be against Joachim as I think he’d be the tougher foe as laid out in TWoK.

However, this is Hollywood and science-fiction. Has everyone forgotten no one told Shatner that Spock wasn’t going to stay dead after the filming of TWoK?

“It ain’t over, ’til it’s over.” – Yogi Beara

For instance, BC could be playing a mindwiped Khan and the scripts for all the actors involved need not reveal that he really is Khan to them. The last scene could be some actor (who has no need to know either) reciting a line “It’s a pity the revival process erases their identity.” and the camera pulls back for the Rosebud reveal as the body is closed in its drawer.

Also, I’m not sure what good gloating does with an industry where multiple endings are shot and picked by test viewing scores? Not to mention total re-editings of poor scoring films.

Film is a collaborative form of art. Sometimes, the artist attacks the marble with one idea for a statue but by the time you are half way through the marble tells you what kind of statue it’s going to be.

So if the video release extra shows Khan was never intended to be in the film but when they got to editing they felt it screamed for a Khan reveal and put one in, who has to eat their hat?

Can someone enlighten me? What’s the deal with all the chest beating about figuring out the villian? There’s the “Khan Faction.” The not-Khan faction. And all the others. I think I read someone claimed Khan “two years, three months and thirteen days ago.” Then some one else said….”No, I was the first to DEDUCE it was Khan and here’s my evidence.”

What is at stake here? Are there Vegas odds? Bragging rights? Will it impress the ladies? Your parents? What? Is there a trophy?

Why are there “fights” over this and name-calling?

I don’t understand. It seems silly (to me) to get so worked up over something so trivial.

“Understand….Not at all getting into the relative propriety of such a casting move, just saying don’t think it would be a Hollyfwood first for a story to get rewritten because an actor of “first choice” (good or bad) wasn’t available.”
_____

I understand.

But, I don’t think there were any major changes to the story after Benedict Cumberbatch was cast:

“…..O.K. we wrote this character John Harrison and this is what he said and this is what he did, but now we’ve got Benedict Cumberbatch playing him so let’s rewrite the movie with that in mind.” And that didn’t mean that John Harrison did anything differently, or it didn’t change the story in anyway, but it did change the words coming out of his mouth etc etc…..”

What is at stake here? Are there Vegas odds? Bragging rights? Will it impress the ladies? Your parents? What? Is there a trophy?

Why are there “fights” over this and name-calling?

I don’t understand. It seems silly (to me) to get so worked up over something so trivial.

****************************

Bragging rights, mostly. I don’t think it warrants name calling and fights in the least. But the spirited debate (as long as everyone remembers that NONE of us know) is welcome, I think. I say that all invovled with this film are doing a wonderful job with the villian controversy. What other movie do you remember there being a debate over who the villian is this close to the movie, WHEN THE VILLAINS NAME HAS BEEN RELEASED *LOL*

It’s brilliant advertising. Its’ fair to say that most people who watch or participate on this site are going to watch the movie at some point. But not knowing who the villian truly is, and the prospect of coming back to this forum with bragging rights will send MANY people out to the theatre on the first night. Combine that with the mobile app, which helps stir the pot with suggestive articles and allows you to buy tickets to the premiere and advanced screenings, and you have the potential for a massive rally weekend with the fanbase. I’ve seen people post on here that they already have their tickets. I don’t think I’ve ever bought advance tickets for anything in my life, but I’m considering it now.

Fair enough. Seems to me the quoted material suggests there clearly was, at a minimum, some actor-based wordsmithing, and surely there would be no public admission that the basic story had to be gutted or reworked to accommodate. Heck, that might (if it happened at all) have taken place when early word of a Khan leak made it out and there was generally such negative reaction to it.

Heh. Who knows. Guess we’ll all find out in about 3 months :)

One thing’s for sure, the selectively leaked/not-leaked/misinformation/information has done a tremendous job of ramping up the interest in the movie.

I’m with #121, but #125 also makes a good point in favor of those who are firm adherents to a particular John-Harrison-is-actually-______ camp and are trying to engage in healthy discourse. A lot of the “I’m right, you’re wrong” rhetoric gets pretty unpleasant, however, and makes scrolling through the comments in search of additional insights and ideas feel like a civil (uncivil?) war is about to break out. I doubt that the marketing/obfuscation campaign was intended to stir the pot this much, but it has certainly sparked greater interest in the film. Personally, I am hoping that BC is not Khan, but I can see how some of the clues (and leaks) have the villain potentially headed in that direction. Whether or not there is a Khan in the movie, I have faith that the writers will give us an interesting storyline – and what Star Trek fan can’t be happy that buzz for this film is making the franchise relevant again?

I know, John Harrison is really Lt. Hadley. You know, the guy that was usually the fill in navigator (or any available bridge station) who was always on screen, but only named once, and never, not once, had a line of dialogue.

He is PO’d that his prime self was the glue that held the bridge together and was never acknowledged by Captain Kirk.

That’s it! When the discourse gets heated, it’s actually unpleasant/uncomfortable to witness how some Trek fans treat each other. I always thought of this as a “brotherhood” of fans. The sniping seems so counter to idea of Star Trek. (On the other hand, I guess Dr. McCoy threw a few “pointed-eared hobgoblin” remarks at Spock when he didnt’ agree with him.)

The saddest thing about the sniping is, like all internet sniping, it’s people sitting behind keyboards who would likely never say the same things to the people they’re talking to in person. You’re not going to go up to a total stranger and say, “No, dummy, it’s not Khan. I can prove to you 117 different ways it’s Gary Mitchell, if that one brain cell you’ve got on life support could understand what I was talking about.” Keyboard muscles are tragic.

Yeah, and it doesn’t take much to for the words to start flying. i.e. Benedict’s wrinkled shirt led to speculation of robotic implants, gene splicing, etc.

I just don’t care that much to flip out about it. But I will say this:
RDR, your post @67 was very eloquent. That’s the Trekker spirit!

I think that Benedict as John Harrison (which I believe is an original character) looks very intelligent and fear inspiring. Whether he’s playing a character from canon or an original character I want to be utterly terrified of him when I see this movie!

@135: “Why would Khan come to some family and offer to help their child?”

I don’t think Cumberbatch is Khan, but in general I would guess the reason Khan (or whomever Cumberbatch is playing) would offer to help Noel Clarke’s daughter is to get something in Return that Noel Clarke could give to him/do for him.

In a galaxy where Fabrini scattered humans all over, crossbreeding with non-human humanoids is rampant, and humans colonizing non-traditional environments such as the Moon or Mars, what’s a “normal” reading?

I can understand the desire by a studio to bring back your franchise’s biggest ‘bad guy’ to create a buzz & get the more ‘general’ public to go see a villain they’ve actually heard of (exactly what happened with the Joker & Dark Knight). But if that we’re the case, wouldn’t you want as many people as possible to know about it rather than keep it a secret?

On the aforementioned ‘Dark Knight’ they went out of their way to let you know it was a ‘Joker’ film because that was a big selling point! I just don’t get the commercial reasoning for a ‘secret’ Khan as the baddie, and lets not kid ourselves, ‘the bottom line’ is their number one concern!

I suppose what I’m trying to say is, if your villain is the most ‘bankable’ one your franchise has, why try to make everyone think he’s an accountant?

re: my comment on bioreadings, Space Seed mentions in one of Kirk’s captain’s logs: “Dr. McCoy is frankly amazed at his [Khan’s] physical and recuperative power.”

When Kirk goes to check-up on the unconscious Khan, McCoy states: “Even as he is now, his heart valve action is twice the power of yours or mine. Lung efficiency, 50 percent better.” Kirk: “An improved breed of human.” McCoy: “I’d estimate he could life us both with one arm. Be interesting to see if his brain matches his body.”

I would think that this wouldn’t go unnoticed by some sort of Starfleet exam.

You said “biosigns”. Khan’s readings probably wouldn’t be outside those of an Earth colonist from a planet with twice Earth’s gravity and thinner oxygen content.

But now you mention a full medical exam. That would only be an issue if Starfleet insisted he submit to physical by a Starfleet Doctor which wasn’t the case in the Prime U or else how do you explain Norman the android infiltrating Kirk’s crew?

@133. “The saddest thing about the sniping is, like all internet sniping, it’s people sitting behind keyboards who would likely never say the same things to the people they’re talking to in person. You’re not going to go up to a total stranger and say, “No, dummy, it’s not Khan. I can prove to you 117 different ways it’s Gary Mitchell, if that one brain cell you’ve got on life support could understand what I was talking about.” Keyboard muscles are tragic.”

Actually saying this in person over a beer with fans I had just met be fun. Kind of like “clear the air” intensive Trek discussions with a group of fans int a bar. Yes, I would like this. But oversensitive folks like yourself who take things way too seriously and personally should not join this group.

Well, if I’m inconsistent with terms, I apologize – but I don’t think it matters and I think my point is clear. I’m assuming every cadet must undergo an examination before being admitted (not sure that’s cannon?) – and we do know medical records get transferred when you transfer ships. BC character would have to have had an exam at some point. Ship board illness, injury, something to show he’s not an average human.

Point being, augments, like Khan, cannonically don’t have the same readings as humans – and I think there’s little doubt he could escape all medical exams. Seska sure didn’t for long.

Somethng else to consider: Khan was shown some sort of Yogic technique when he wanted to maximize his strength and open his cell door. It’s reasonable that when conscious, he can make his body perform down to human norms through this same Yogic control..

Haha! I think the casting of an Hispanic actor (or the attempt to do so) was itself intended as a misdirection. Everyone would go “Aha! Hispanic actor, the ‘Big Bad’ is Khan!”. Then it turns out he’s…John Harrison – “OMG! We were wrong!”. Then, even further into the mystery box, Harrison is ultimately revealed to actually be Khan!! “Whoa! But I thought…!” Collective Trekkie/Trekker minds blown with this ‘Riddle wrapped inside a Mystery inside an Enigma’ thing of head scratching wonder. Mr. Abrams is declared ‘The Pope of Cinematic Science Fiction’, goes on to direct the first 2 billion dollar box office movie, a.k.a. Star Wars Episode VII, is crucified for the love happiness and hope he delivers unto us, rises on the third day then ascends to the Hollywood heavens ( the ascension shot in 3D IMAX w/THX sound of course). Amen

Dmduncan, that’s funny. But you’re scaring me. Since Abrams is running Star Wars, I’m getting a “What can we learn from Star Wars here” vibe. That’s the name of the section of the documentary for the 2009 film, called “A New Vision.”

Hopefully, there won’t be a Star Trek Holiday Special. On the other hand if it featured Katy Perry in the number she wore at the Grammys,…. but CBS would probably nix it for being too risque.

Norman hand a uniform and Kirk referred to him as “crewman Norman.” Or are you drawing a distinction at those who actually went to the academy? Hmmm…I bet that’s not the only entry into Starfleet. but I’m not sure.

On Bashir, recall the tech he had to fool was still a generation ahead of anything Khan would have to fool.

MJ, do you think STID will make that? One thing I am wonder about is the sequel not having that much appeal as the first one. I think a lot of people saw the first one because they were curious as to what the updated Star Trek would look like, would it be not as geeky or nerdy as it was perceived by the mainstream audience. Now that they have seen it did they get attached to the new Kirk and crew and want to come back and see them again in a new adventure?

#175 – There is a little bit of bisexual in all of us, no matter what our main leanings, orientation may be. It is the bisexual aspect, small though it may for most people, is what is most confusing and scary.

Heterosexuals can find some people of their own sex very attractive, even sexy. Gays/lesbians can also find some people of the opposite sex very attractive, even sexy.

Ahh…to be human – ’tis a wondrous thing!

If Dee agrees, she or I could post another picture of the lovely Pine caboose that we have. Sharing is good…:)

I suspect that in North America, “Star Trek Into Darkness” will make $350 million+ easily. There is a lot of hype in both Canada and the U.S. surrounding this film. This is where the majority of Trekkies reside, as well as in Britain and Germany. It’s easily one of the top ten most anticipated movies of 2013 in these countries.

However, in nations like Brazil, China, India, and Russia, it will be a challenge as Trek has never had much of a foothold in those countries.

Seeing as how the international market is becoming a bigger factor in box office revenue, it will be crucial for the sequel to significantly improve on the first movie’s grosses, especially in the aforementioned non-English speaking countries.

I had this song on my mind after seeing the dress ; I love those black flames.

But, given what I think I heard about the way some actors could end up wearing what they do on special occasions….Miss Eve herself might not have necessarily liked it…although she wears it well, in my opinion (I like the red carpet picture).

P.S. : About the link. I knew the song, but, I had never watched the video before.

I’ve been giving this whole Khan thing a great deal of serious thought and the one thing that people seem to be hung up on is The Botany Bay.

Given that Nero went back in time, changing the timeline, many people have put forth the notion that the timeline diverges from the point of his entry. However I wonder if there is something we have not considered…

In TOS Kirk and crew went back in time many times, thus causing changes in the future.
In Voyager Janeway and crew went back in time many times, thus causing changes in the future.

What if Nero’s incursion changed all of these future events and thus any past events? What if Kirk and crew never went back in time in the new timeline? What would that mean for the future? Would there be any augments called Khan? What if Khan does not exist? What if Augment technology comes later? When you play with time you create a whole new palette of opportunity.

Are they going to kill him? That would mean Wrath of Khan never happens and that would p&$$ most of us off.

*************************************

*Nero Voice* IT DID HAPPEN!!!! I SAW IT!!!!!

But seriously….why would people be upset that the Wrath of Khan never happened? This is an alternate timeline, a LOT of things aren’t going to happen. The only sensible complaint I see against Khan is that it’s a rehash of an old plot, when producers have the opportunity to bring new stuff in. But I don’t mind if it’s done well. Part of the appeal of the alternate universe is that there is the potential to see old stories and storylines in a new way. The most fascinating part about this movie, Khan or not, is going to be Carol Marcus. Does Kirk have a relationship with her, do they part their ways? Will there be a “David?” Or….and this is the most staggering concept….will Kirk actually marry Carol and try to make it work, so that his child wont be raised without a father like he was?

But anyway, back to Khan. If they kill him, fine. If they don’t, good….I wouldn’t mind seeing a “Wrath of Khan” in part 4 or 5 if Cumby is as good as I think he’ll be.

190. Damian – February 12, 2013
I think it will be hilarious if we find out John Harrison really is….John Harrison. It seems 99% of the people here think he’s really something else.

***********************

The only problem with that is the fact that Orci said he was canon. So he can’t just be John Harrison.

Unless, they go with making him “Harrison” from Space Seed and a few other episodes. Which would be goofy, but I could suspend my disbelief. I know it sounds goofy that I have no problem with BC playing an Indian, but don’t want him to play a Polynesian, but with Khan it could be explained away with plastic surgery, which is necessary if you have a recognizable face. Not so with Harrison.

But really, I’m willing to roll with that. It would be wonderful indeed to see some minor Specialist John Harrison almost destroy Starfleet. As far as his abilities, from the first glimpse of the trailer, it looked like he was wearing a jetpack with that large jump he took. The gun could be supported by antigrav tech (which would make sense in the 23rd century. And he could just be smart….as smart as Kirk.

Actually saying this in person over a beer with fans I had just met be fun. Kind of like “clear the air” intensive Trek discussions with a group of fans int a bar. Yes, I would like this. But oversensitive folks like yourself who take things way too seriously and personally should not join this group.

*****************************

*LOL* Sorry, MJ, I’m not going to bite at the “oversensitive” comment.

There is a difference between having a little friendly banter and hostility. And we all know the difference when it is spoken to us in real life, and when it is typed. I remember going to a crowded bar during my college’s annual rivalry game, in the rival’s city, while I and a few friends were wearing our university colors. There was banter back and forth, some of it sort of pushing the envelope, but we wouldn’t have escaped intact if we were SERIOUS about insulting their team.

Serious insults on the internet are cowardly, and for cowards. Spirited conversation is another entity altogether.

On the subject of whether or not an Augment like Khan could pass Starfleet medical exams, the yoga thing is very interesting. *LOL* The scenes with him using it in Space Seed are so silly, but I have to admit….if there’s a way to use Yoga to defeat medical exams, I think Khan could figure it out. It’s a fascinating idea, the whole inward body manipulation.

But I think there’s an easier solution, as I’ve said before. All you have to do is engineer a device that gives false readings. Or, “Kobiyashi Maru” the doctor’s office by implanting a virus to read everyone normally except Khan. How many roaming technicians have access to run diagnostics on equipment? And how many upright, morally capable Starfleet Officers would falsify their readings, so that Starfleet would have security in place against it.

You brought up Bashir and Norman. I don’t remember Norman, so I can’t speak on him, but Bashir could probably take a test and pass, because his physical augments were minimal. He didn’t have greater strength that would result in a scan detecting greater muscle density, he just had superior hand eye coordination, which probably didn’t differ much from a really good professional athelete, or surgeon. And those scans wouldn’t be anything different than every other scan on file since grade school.

I think you mentioned Seska also….or someone mentioned Seska. That’s an interesting one. I don’t remember how that went either, but you’d have to think she had some sort of technological way to mask it. Internal sensors can pick up on a person’s species, can’t they?

So what is Star Trek Into Darkness going to be?! A modern Star Trek VI? Maybe yes! And especially cause Orci was talking here at Trekmovie about the attack of JFK! And how comes this together?

While have seen in the first movie that there much more dangerous enemies for the federation in the alternate timeline than in the Prime timeline, the federation have to upgrade! And not only because of forces like Nero, also the klingons were and are a enemy to respect. And while we saw in the first issue of Countdown to Darkness, April don’t respect the Prime Directive too much and properbably he’s not the only one. He give the weapons to the people of Phaedus instead the klingons will do that and they turn them against the federation. So Cumberbatch’s character could be attack the admirals and other high ranked stuff at the federation to show that they are not safe and the UFP has to upgrade. At the same time he is maybe on going to Qu’ou’nos to bring the klingons to start a war against the federation. Some things are not completly explained here but it would be nice to discuss it with you.

And now! Who is Cumberbatch? Nice question but no idea! Weller? Maybe the head behind Cumberbatch like Chang in VI? Why can we sympathize with Cumby? He wants to save his family and beloved Earth?! But who came back for his venegeance? I don’t think it’s Khan and I would not say April although for him they the most evidences : He was thought to be dead and can come back … The Federation could have let him alone or didn’t help him and his family or they didn’t hear for him to upgrade or something like that!

198–Exactly. So what Orci said would not be a lie, even if we never saw John Harrison before.

Orci is a witty guy. I would not put it past him to use that reasoning. He only said he was a character from canon (true since he will be on screen). He never specifically said he was in Star Trek before.

So even if John Harrison was never seen before, Bob Orci was not lying.

This confirms even MORE he is playing Khan. They will do ANYTHING for us NOT to know it Khan before the movie’s release. I am sick of this bullcrap. There is more EVIDENCE then ever that it is Khan. This 007 secret bullshit is getting REALLY old.

197. Gary S. – February 12, 2013
It is possible That Orci lied about the character being Canon
I wouldnt have a problem with that.
He is just PROMOTING A MOVIE .
Part of that means protecting that movies secrets

********************

Why would Orci lie about the character being canon to protect secrets? I could see him lying about him NOT being canon to protect secrets. If it’s say, Khan, and Orci says the character isn’t canon, we all sit around and think it’s some dude named John Harrison until we see the movie and we’re like, “*GASP* It’s KHAN!!!!” But if you tell us it’s a canon character, you make all of us speculate and wonder what is going on with the character, and try to pay off as many extras and send as many spies in to figure out who the villian is.

I mean, I concede you might do that to stir hype about a character who is otherwise unremarkable, but if that’s the case, they could have done the same with Nero. And like I said, that doesn’t protect secrets as much as lying and saying he’s not canon when he is.

203. Rich Civil – February 12, 2013
I don’t understand why so many people want it to be Khan.

***************

I don’t think it’s so much a factor of people wanting it to be Khan, rather than thinking that it’s going to be Khan, based on the tidbits of information we’ve all been given. People who “want” it to be Khan probably just want to confirm their guess more than they actually want to see Khan.

Norman was the android that singlehandedly took over the Enterprise in I,MUDD by infiltrating as a crewman. It unfolded in the opening scene before the theme/credits.

Darvin, the Klingon who masqueraded as a human, romped around the apparently Federation space station K-7 without transporter biofilters or any other station scans unmasking his species until a tribble fingered him.

But I assume Norman had to use some tech to get to a position where he could crack their computers to forge his records, etc. So I think your supposition there is sound.

The important thing is that getting around scans and physicals in this future setting has been established as possible. Kirk himself established in the 2009 effort that Federation systems are hackable. It has to be easier for Khan who is after all, human, albeit super, to mask his “slightly” off norm readings?

JJ Abrams already left us Trekkies in a corner when he blew up Vulcan, turned Kirk into a refugee from 90201 and gave us an emo Romulan villain who inexplicably wants to revenge himself on the one person who tried to save his family.

I am really hoping that Cumberbatch blows us away as an original villain. If this turns out to be “Star Trek 2, part 2, Khan Still has Anger Issues” I am swearing off of the series for good.

213. Still bitter – February 12, 2013
JJ Abrams already left us Trekkies in a corner when he blew up Vulcan, turned Kirk into a refugee from 90201 and gave us an emo Romulan villain who inexplicably wants to revenge himself on the one person who tried to save his family.

************************

I think Nero is the only weak link there. I loved the fact that they blew up Vulcan, not because I wanted Vulcan blown up (in?), because I didnt – but because blowing up Vulcan means that nothing is predictable. If they’re trying to save Earth, there’s no guarantee they’re going to be able to do it. If someone looks like they’re going to die, there’s no guarantee they wont.

As far as Kirk being 90210, just because he’s young, handsome, and brash doesn’t mean anything. I think they did an excellent job portraying what Kirk would be like if raised under those circumstances.

What I find eerie and odd is living in So California where life is imitating this art. Dorner is running around and I’ve never seen anything like it. Police officers have actual fear in their eyes. He was one of their own turned against them. The papers are prematurely calling him a mass murderer, expert in the use of weapons of mass destruction.

#217 – Christopher Dorner was an Navy reservist but expert in the use of weapons of mass destruction? This is just more media hype. Do they think he’s got a “dirty bomb” or has access to something like anthrax?

The media seems to be always so noisy and hyped – it is becoming hard to take anything seriously now. Have they not heard of the story about the boy who cried wolf?

What if those units aren’t on the Botany Bay? What if they are a storage facility on Earth? Maybe some of the Augments survived the Eugenics Wars and we could see flashback scenes as to how this happened?

I am sorry Rose, but as someone who lives in L.A./So Cal.
Disinvited was right, seriously especially on thursday and Friday L.A.P.D. officers were running around up and down residental streets, armed to the hilt. and they did have a look of fear in their eyes, and they were not taking chances with ANYONE.

I am sorry but you have got to love a poster who is on the other side of the world, saying something that local residents have witnessed first hand over the last week is just media hype.

The former L.A.P.D. officer wrote a 21 page manifesto basicly declaring war on the L.A.P.D. as he felt wronged by them.

I know several fine men and women who serve in the L.A.P.D. and there has been a true sense of fear, over the last few days.

MJ, You are so right.
post 219 agrivated me as well, shes on the other side of the Pacific and she just downplays it like its nothing.
Rose would you say the same thing if you saw what those us have seen first hand over the the past week?
I think not

And the news has been very accurate in the discription of how tense and on edge the P.D. have been here in Los Angeles this past week.
Even now tonight authorities still have no clue if he is dead or still alive after the standoff in big bear today, cause its to hot to aproach the smoking ruins of the cablin he holed up in.

For all they know the fire and single gun shot was a diversion so he could escape. fingers crossed they will find the SOB’s body in there latter, but can you imagine how much more tense it will be if no remains are found or if worse yet, someone else other than him is found.

Please enlighten yourself better before making statements about events you have no actual knowledge of.

The New Zealand government web site states that the last mass murder (defined in NZ as 4 or more people at one time) was in 1997 when 6 people were killed and 8 people injured. The country has a population of approximately 4,455,000 as of today. No country is immune from such things.

What is happening in California must be terrifying for the residents, especially those who are, or have friends/relatives, in the police force. Hopefully Dorner has met his end at Big Bear, but according to what is being reported here in Aus, that is by no means certain.

I suspect Rose was not intending to belittle the terrible situation, but rather to take a swipe at the tenor of media reporting in general. She seems to have hit an unintended raw nerve instead. I cannot comment on the quality of TV news reporting in the US. I feel I can comment on that in Australia. We have recently had quite serious fire and flood events in Australia, with imminent threat to life. The reporting on these events by the commercial news media has at times appeared to verge on the hysterical, while the taxpayer-funded news media has been more moderate in its approach and mainly confined itself more to factual reporting and issuing of emergency or warning alerts as appropriate. As someone who watches the news from both commercial and taxpayer-funded TV news services, the difference in reporting tone at times like these is stark.

“The media seems to be always so noisy and hyped – it is becoming hard to take anything seriously now. Have they not heard of the story about the boy who cried wolf?”

Er…..what about that statement means that she’s implying that everyone is exaggerating what is happening in LA?

She’s right. The media DOES overhype things. I can’t remember the last time someone was shot. They’re all “gunned down” now. And news stations DO sensationalize things to keep viewer interest, and examine a single issue from various points of view, using various adjectives, with a steady stream of conversation over situations where nothing is going on at the moment. I’m guessing that CNN didn’t say, “Police have Dorner cornered in a house. More on that when the standoff ends. Now to sports….”

Of course, the Dorner situation, like some news stories, probably don’t need much sensationalism due to the magnitude of what is going on. However, her point is true – in the sensational media environment we have now, it’s hard for a person outside of the situation to really get a feel for what’s going on. You all that live in LA are giving us great reports on the tone. We can trust you, but it’s hard to trust the media sometimes.

And on another note….uhm…..what’s up with the LAPD? I remember in college doing a report on the corruption in the CRASH unit, and now you have this guy. Sure, he could be a lunatic, and two incidents don’t indicate much about a whole organization, but for the people who live in the area, do you feel there are greater problems in the LAPD, or are these just flukes?

Rose, I live in southern CA, in Riverside, and about a mile from the church where the memorial service for the officer killed last Thursday is going to start within the hour. The cracks you are causally tossing out are not reflective of the situation – the last time I recall reporting at this level locally was when Richard Rameriz was busy killing people, and prior to that, the Hillside Strangler.

There will be plenty of time to review how the police handled the situation (and believe me, there were some f**k ups) and how the media handled the situation, but given the perp went very public with a vow to wage warfare, and that he had no reservations about pulling the trigger, I don’t blame police and media for erring on the side of caution.

All your comments about media hype do is expose you as being woefully uninformed….again.

#217 – “The papers are prematurely calling him a mass murderer, expert in the use of weapons of mass destruction.
Any of that sound familiar?”

Yet again, the same North American posters have gone off at me with guns in lock and load position, without actually reading the post here referring to the So California situation. It was actually this post I was responding to. Please pay attention – it may actually save your lives one day…:((

It was this post, quoted above, that I was referring to. When I looked up the Dorner case, one of the websites I went on to get some background information, was constantly *updating*, which meant my screen went blank several times. How much more new and relevant information could they get in this time? I had to go to a UK website to actually find out what was going on. OK – I haven’t watched the news on TV for a couple of days – all doom and gloom – this case in point.

I am NOT belittling the events going on. I just don’t know what to believe sometimes, with all the hype and speculation that goes on under the guise of “journalism”. Hence my reference to the “boy who cried wolf” story.

It is the sensationalist and panic inducing crap journalism, eg. the mention of Christopher Dorner having access to wmd (“dirty bomb”?) or whatever (see post #217), when none of this has actually been confirmed or otherwise by the relevant authorities, is what I do not like, and nor should any of you. It is this sensationalism and hype that BELITTLES the actual events going on at the moment!

It is one thing for media to rumour monger, speculate etc on whether a fictional character will appear in the latest sci-fi movie being made – it is an annoyance, but it is quite another thing, for the media to constantly speculate, sensationalize, “update”, etc about a REAL LIFE event where a man has made serious threats against 50 police officers and their families, has already killed and injured people and is still at large.

From where I sit, it seems that the way much of media behave is that everything is just more copy, whether it is about an angry and deluded man threatening and killing real people or writing about the antics of a celebrity. It makes me angry and sick!

“The cracks you are causally tossing out”
The “cracks”, as in jokes? If you think I was joking – wow, why would you even think I would be joking about such an event? You, Phil (and the rest of you) surely know me better than that after all this time that I have been posting to this site. That comment was rude and offensive and frankly says, sadly, more about you than it does about me…:(

Rose, I hope you never have to worry about your kids safety over there for a week like those of us here in San Diego have over the past week. They found that crazy mother-frackers wallet and other materials 2 miles from my house — the house that I have my two babies in!

As a single mother of two, I hardly ever have time to write messages here, but I do read a lot of entries. And I have noticed that you have a major chip on your shoulder regarding the USA. You are always taking potshots at the USA, but this beyond even your worst behavior to date — even worse then when your inferred we were morally corrupt for dropping the A-bomb on Japan. We had a whole region of our country terrorized by this mentally unstable man in the past week — that should transcend boundries and garner us some sympathy, but not apparently from you.

Take your tired anti-U.S. attitude somewhere else. And as someone who has always wanted to travel to New Zealand someday, I am no longer interested becuase of you — as you are essentially representing New Zealand here, that has decided it for me — I would not spend on a dime on a country that has such ill will towards its friends in the U.S., and behaves so coldly about a dangerous killer on the loose in our neighborhoods.

Told you so again….it’s just amazing how you will not own your comments, and feign ignorance when ‘cracks’ means sarcastic, and condesending comments, and go to great lengths to explain why you are right and everyone else is consistantly wrong.

Yeah, we know you fairly well. Glad I don’t take any of this s**t personally…

I am lucky enought to live in a small city (225,000 pop., but actually feels more like a small town) where we don’t have to worry about madmen on a mass killing rampage. I feel very fortunate, indeed. I wish it were the case for everyone on this planet, but, sadly, it isn’t the case.

Therefore, I know better to NOT lecture others living in more violence-prone cities on how to deal with its problems.

Maybe the media does go overboard with headlines, but in no way whatsoever does that reduce the impact of tragedies such as these. You have to look beyond the banner headlines, and read about/listen to the facts, people’s testimony, and be able to read the emotions being experienced by those directly involved, and those who live in the affected communities.

And for people who live in L.A./Southern California, I have no doubt their fear, dread, shock, and anger are very real. I cannot possibly begin to imagine the horror they have witnessed, and must come to terms with.

I am lucky not to have experienced any sort of tragedy like this, and so is Keachick.

In the bigger picture, most developed countries are as safe as they have ever been. Even with high profile cases, crime rates are at historic lows. It’s not so much that people were afraid because of eminiment doom, but the potential for exposure to it. Over a period of a week, Chris Dorner traveled through four counties, hundreds of miles, and was potentially exposed to roughly 19 million people. He had a known arsnel, showed a willingness to pull the trigger, and gunned down innocents and officers alike.

To put it in perspective, I’ve not seen media reporting like this except in two other instances – the Richard Ramirez and Hillside Strangler killings. Levels of fear that occured three times over 49 years of life. I’ll not be afraid walking out my door tomorrow any more then I was yesterday, but it would be nice to hope and pray that no one else ever has to experience this again.

Chris Dorner….prime example of normal people going crazy over dumb things. So he lost his job, whatever, stand in line bud. I mean seriously? People like Dorner are people that have families that love them. They’re smart…upstanding people in the community.

Developed countries seem to produce these kinds of people that snap (and snap hard) over stuupid stuff. Not for like, you know, money or self defense. Some of these people have never experienced real hardship in their life!

And usually they try to take their lives so they don’t have to own up to what they did. When they catch this Chris, they aren’t going to go easy on him. People look down on cop killers. And seeing as he actually WAS a cop…let’s just say finding a job will be the least of his concerns now.

The point, I was making Rose, is you are on the other side of the pacific almost the other side of the world. And your making comments about how media is over hyping this. When you are not here to experience what is going on first hand is disqusting.

Dont speak on matters you know nothing about. The media didnt over hype it all. Your comments are disrepctful to those of us who lived through this over the last week.

Jay: I was on Skype yesterday with a friend in Burma who said CNN International was running live reports of this guy’s manhunt. Burma, dude.

If you are in New York, Berlin, Moscow, Wellington, Yangon, Lagos or Bangkok, you get this stuff. I watch MSNBC, and they focused all their time on this guy in California instead of real issues like the Pope, North Korea and the State of the Union address. It’s local for people in that part of SoCal, so run for the hills if necessary.

As a New Yorker who’s traveled a lot and seen shit, I can say that where you are on this planet has no bearing on the validity of your opinion about a current event. I worked down the street from the theater which was overtaken by Chechen terrorists in Moscow in 2002. 170 people were killed. CNN, Russian and other press services gave it identical treatment. Outrage was universal around the globe. I drove by it every day.

Where and how you grew up makes your opinion perhaps unique and special to some, and annoying to others. Welcome to life. Rose can have a valid opinion. If she charged a few grand on her card, she could fly to LA/San Diego and watch the same CNN report, and walk right to the spot where the guy ended it. Would that make her opinion more valid?

AJ
its not about whos opinon is more valid, its about her making a misinformed crack about something that has not been overhyped in the media. What you have been seeing on the news is how it has actually been here in socal for the last week.

the media in this matter has not overhyped or sensationalized it all(the legit media atleast) Rose is often like this, and her posts usually show a grudge towards those of us in the states and events in the states.

AJ
its not about whos opinon is more valid, its about her making a misinformed crack about something that has not been overhyped in the media. What you have been seeing on the news is how it has actually been here in socal for the last week.

the media in this matter has not overhyped or sensationalized it all(the legit media atleast) Rose is often like this, and her posts usually show a grudge towards those of us in the states and events in the states.

This site is for everyone around the world with an Internet connection. The US tends to lead in absurd stories about crazy shooters, loonies, and mass murders. Other countries tend to regulate guns, provide medical care, even for mental illness, for free, and have social safety nets that prevent people from falling through the cracks.

As the US is still maybe 50-100 years away from that, we become the main source of wacko TV for the world, with workers ‘going postal,’ families digging bunkers filled with loaded guns and freeze-dried food, and nutball mass shooters with a grudge against innocent 6/7 year olds.

In many ‘developed’ countries, this is absolutely unthinkable..In the US, it’s relatively commonplace. And the world is watching.

I was not belittling the enormity of the actual events. Many of the police and citizenry’s fears were totally legitimate and I was and am not making fun of this – anything but.

Once again, I reiterate, it is how SOME of the media are handling this sad event that bothers me.

I don’t have to be in a certain place in order to be sensitive, to empathize and that is also what I have also pointed out in previous posts here. However, certain posters have chosen to ignore that and have gone on to accuse me of being sarcastic, cold etc. One poster even said they had not read all the posts here and yet still made a point of being insulting and rude to me.

Another reality is that some people can be traumatized and be very fearful because of say suffering a violent assault (called an “accident” by the assailant) and yet the event may never even be reported to the Police, let alone become media material (or more like fodder, the way some of the media treat some events). Such people can be or become very sensitized, empathetic to such events as has just occurred in the last week with this Chris Dorner. Whether they live next door or 10,000kms away makes little difference to them.

The other truth is that most Californians would not have been directly effected at all by these events.

My problem is that I often need to be less sensitive to some of the things that happen in this world…:(

Well, with a sarcastic smile to Disco Spock in 253 about the Pope and all the crap associated with that, having a personal perspective like Jay means you’ll always decry any national coverage that sensationalizes potentially tragic local events. I’ve had friends in the news in the US, and, like Jay, was pissed off at how events were inflated and made into consumable fluff for the poop newspapers/news stations.

Being sensitive to events in the world depends on your wiring. If you’re sensitive, that’s a good thing. Better than being numb. Trekmovie, like Facebook, is a terrible forum for debating these issues. This is a BAFTA thread after all. If people get their Irish up, the best thing to do is to lay low and wait for the next thread.

While you are welcome to believe what you want, Orci’s answers are pretty clear: Cumberbatch is playing a character from ORIGINAL Star Trek canon (NOT the alternate reality timeline), and he is NOT a new character created by Orci. If John Harrison turns out to have nothing to do with Star Trek canon prior to STID, then Orci lied in the linked interview. Sorry.

@256. I think the point you and Rose miss is that several of us here actually live in Southern California and went through this weird and surrealy manhunt drama over the past week. So when you give the impression of either amused detachment or belittling it, it really pisses us off.

I don’t know or give a rats ass about Rose reading something about Dorner and WMD or you hearing from some guy in Burma about seeing this on CCN or BBCW or whatever. For those of us here, this was REAL and IMMEDIATE.

And I am sick and tired of Rose’s numbers game in making light of people dieing in the U.S. Her latest comments said this doesn’t effect us because of our population size in California, and her recent comments on another topic critiziced that the U.S. only lost 420,000 troops in WWI becuase it wasn’t as high a percentage of total population as the 12,000 NZ deaths. These are really cold and harsh attitudes to view human lives in — I feel sorry for her for having these viewpoints.

In the final two casualties from Dorner last night. one police officer has had two surgeries already, and will need several more, plus a lifetime of disability from his injuries. He’s the luck one — the other office died, and left behind three kids, including a 4-month old son. These are real people, and they still suffer and are real to us here in SoCal despite some news entertainment that Rose doesen’t like and despite how you and your friend would rather wish for better news coverage of problems in Burma.

@260 The officer who was buried today, the NJROTC and several of the kids from the local HS were out putting of messages of support to the family along the route of the motorcade this morning. I noticed several people lining the route hours before the motorcade came by, it’s nice to see the community rally around the family.

There is nothing wrong with being sensitive to suffering. I felt bad for the people in Japan and Christchurch…hell, for that matter, Iran, when they had their earthquakes recently. Was very proud of my son, the Navy man, who told he he’s looking forward to the day he can be on one of these humanitarian crews, because that’s what he’s trained for (yeah, that’s the same Navy Rose pisses on, the one that happens to protect NZ, too). I’ve experienced enough quakes in SoCal to imagine how those people were feeling. But sitting here in SoCal watching those events unfold on TV isn’t the same as experiencing them, and to suggest otherwise it wrong, and insulting to those who are dealing with fear and loss they had no control over.

Rose, given the random nature of what happened, and the geography it occured over, there were about 19 million people exposed to this. Your ‘truth’ means shit to the family of the officer buried today, or the one killed yesterday. Your truth didn’t stop complete strangers from reaching out to the family. I could go on, but I suspect you are incapable of understanding…..

I wish all of the sycophant types around the world would stop watching and bitchigng about US news. Guess what, Mensas, the reason you are seeing all the U.S. news is because that is what your TV providers know you will watch — it’s all about ratings. We can’t help it we are a hell of lot more interesting than the latest labor protests in Wellington or a suspicious death of a popular sherpa in Burma.

You want to watch us. You can’t help yourself. Then you feel guilty about watching us, and blame us for the problem instead of yourselves.

Well, the fact is that not one of you ever once mentioned this crisis that you were undergoing on this site. You acted as if nothing was going on at all that was unusual or frightening. Instead, you will forever debating whether Cumberbatch really was John Harrison, who should the third Star Trek etc. I know this is a Star Trek movie site, but still, if I was having this kind of thing happen in my neck of the woods, you would hear about it, but I guess that’s just me as I would not be able to contain my worry, my fear and would need to express it somehow…no doubt just to be dismissed by some as just more Keachick ramblings…:(

As I have not paid any attention to ANY news in the past few days, I was not aware of what was happening until this – here on trekmovie.com

“Disinvited – February 12, 2013
#200. skulltrail
What I find eerie and odd is living in So California where life is imitating this art. Dorner is running around and I’ve never seen anything like it. Police officers have actual fear in their eyes. He was one of their own turned against them. The papers are prematurely calling him a mass murderer, expert in the use of weapons of mass destruction.
Any of that sound familiar?”

You can believe what you like. It clearly does not make any difference what I might say anyway. I recall a line from Boston Legal where Denny Crane’s psychiatrist suggested to Denny that he should take up Yoga so that he would have the flexibility to stick his head up his own ass.

Well, MJ, Phil and in particular K-7 – Go do Yoga in order to stick your heads up your own asses, because, right now, that is where I think they belong…:(!!!

I am still seeking apologies from Phil and Admiral Archer’s Prized Beagle, but I am adding MJ and K-7 to that list as well.

Rose’s reaction to American losses of life reminds me of something I remember from an episode of “Seinfeld”. He was responding to someone saying how a ship somewhere sank, killing forty people.

I don’t remember the exact quote, but George Costanza replied with something like this:

“What?! Only forty people died?? That’s no tragedy!”

Honestly, reducing the tragedy by saying how “only this number of people died from that person’s country’s military campaign in comparison to my country during WWII percentage-wise in terms of population” is completely arrogant and insenstive, not to mention ignorant.

Whether we talk about the 12,000 NZ soldiers, or the 420,000 U.S servicemen who died in WW2 combat, those are a lot of souls who made the ultimate sacrifice in the ultimate war, thus becoming the ultimate heroes not only to their respective nations, but to the rest of the world.

Whenever ONE person dies, whether of natural causes, sickness, murder, war, etc., it is a HUGE deal to his/her family. It is a life, a very precious thing, that is snuffed out.

Red Dead Ryan – Why do you think that percentages are given next to the numbers reported dead? I did not do it.

I did not report percentages only. You are misreporting what I actually wrote in those posts. Nor did I ever deny the loss of any soldier’s life would have meant to his family, irrespective of where they were from.

Once again, I am being maligned and lied about. MJ now accuses me of name-calling, while being completely ignorant of the offense he has caused me.

Why are doing this, simply because I made a comment about some of the media? What are you so embarrassed about? What are some of you so guilty about?

@271. Yea, these commments by her, and now the knee-jerk reaction about calling each of us who were concerned over the tragedy a “Son of A Bitch”, is just unbelievable. I can’t believe someone on Trekmovie.com is posting this crap here given what has just happennd here in Southern Californa.

Anthony, if you are there, can you please put a stop to this? This is in such bad taste and is so offensive to so many of us here, and now instead of apoligizing she is becoming bellligerant and name-calling the people who were just trying to explain why this tragedy was important to them.

I wanted to be sure that we were talking about the same interview I had in mind when I made my comment (@ 198).

I see no smoking gun.

You are right though ; I am welcome to believe what I want. And, I believe that stating that “‘original’ is defined to include what material, it cannot be inferred to apply to the Alternate Reality films” is an… opinion… you are entitled to.

I also believe that until I see the movie, I won’t know for sure whether or not John Harrison is a brand new character. Therefore, unless proven otherwise wrong, which would not be an issue, so long as the movie kept its promises of being “blindingly brillant”, I stand by everything I said earlier.

In fact, I agree with Roberto Orci, in that regard:

TrekMovie: So you said that Cumberbatch plays a canon character, but now we see he is playing a guy named John Harrison, so no conflict?

Roberto Orci: Well I did say on your site that I lied once [see comment 67].

266 Rose, don’t forget about me I was the first one to call out your BS.
So tell me to do the same.

Seriously dude you are one the other side of the world, you spoke out of turn about something you were uninformed about claiming it was just media hype/

You want media hype, go to the weather channel and their naming of winter storms, THAT my dear is media hype, The way the media handled the reporting of what was going on here in SO CAL, was respectful and helped bring to an end his week of terror.

Again alls we were asking is be respectful and think before you post. you ever think the reason why people come to sites like trek movie and watch movies is to escape from real world problems and dangers.

just because none of us in so cal had mentioned it befor another fellow resident said hey this kind of parallels what its happening here, doesnt mean squat.

I totally think you owe everyone you have now also name called a personal apology, but i have a feeling your to stubborn to do that.

Mr. Orci could “clarify”, as it were, by taking the time to post a little comment that would go like this:

John Harrison is a character from original Star Trek canon ( not the alternate reality timeline), and he is not a new character created by us (me, Roberto Orci Jr.). You’ve seen him ( John ) before, you know him, so to speak.

If he does not do so before I see the movie…I’ll have to wait in order to find out what kind of…. canon…. character John Harrison is.

“It would be sort of funny if they took a background character from the original series and made him a villain in this alternate universe. We’d never look at him the same way in the original series.”
______

Ain’t that the truth…
I know an Italian guy who had a theory I found very interesting on the matter.

This discussion reminds me of a story that I heard a few years ago .
Apparently they originally were thinking about Shatner portraying the Mirror Universe Kirk on Enterprise ,
But that sstory was shelved for another idea .
Shatner was then going to play The Enterprise Chief of the Galley ,
the often refereed to but never seen “chef” a descendant of Kirk
who was called onto impersonate Kirk .
Shatner said no to that
Does anybody here have the details on this ?
Were they considering bringing back the Mirror Universe Kirk?

Harrison: I. Am. Better.
Kirk: At what?
Harrison: Well, souffles are my speciality, really. The secret is really in beating the eggs just right. Like I’m going to beat you when I escape.
Kirk: I’m more of a BBQ guy myself. Time and temperature is crucial to get the ribs nice and tender. Like yours will be, when I done beating you like a rented mule.
Harrison: I heard that on Jakass 4 they serve up a nasty donkey steak. Have you tried it?
Kirk: Sorry, I’m usually there just for the donkey show. Never tried eating one….

Ha! If you do not intend to believe Orci lied by virtue of Harrison being a brand new character introduced to canon in STID itself, why post all those links to support the position he did lie!? Haha

As far as his lying goes, Orci all but threatened to withhold any future information after a particularly nasty thread in which he felt compelled to clarify that he lied about lying (that is to say he doesn’t lie), due to the excessive rancor.

But that is kind of the core of this issue to me … Orci has invited us to play a guessing game, the clues given so far have ingeniously actually created less focus rather than more. However, if he plays too fast and loose with it then he will lose some good will, at least from me, and based on that earlier thread where he clarified what the “lie” was, a lot of others will be upset by it as well.

Will this spoil the movie for me? No. Will it tarnish Orci’s reputation for me? Yes. And let me be clear: the canon issue itself means nothing to me. But since Orci has made it a clue, then he needs to play this game fairly. If he doesn’t then, to me it’s like playing a rigged card game. Even if I don’t lose my shirt in the game, I’m not going to look too kindly on a liar and a cheat. I don’t want that for Orci, nor myself. So I chose to look at this positively.

Again, if you want to parse the meaning of “original” in context of Star Trek canon to include the Alternate Reality timeline, then you are certainly welcome. I personally don’t see the purpose then of adding the word “original”, and indeed you are the only person I have ever seen interpret this word to include the brand new canon created by Abrams. But why even play such a deceitful game?

I fully expect Harrison to be tied to the ORIGINAL canon that existed prior to 2009. Whether he turns out to be Khan, Joaquin, or April, or Mitchell, or Landru, is irrelevant as Harrison could easily be any of a number of unnamed characters depicted or referenced in Star Trek lore, if not this actual Harrison character. Indeed, if he turns out to be one of these unnamed (and unknown) characters, then he’s just as good as a brand new character, no? Merely a a tie to canon (hopefully an interesting one), with a blank slate on which to build a unique and exciting new characterization.

“Ha! If you do not intend to believe Orci lied by virtue of Harrison being a brand new character introduced to canon in STID itself, why post all those links to support the position he did lie!? Haha etc etc…”
______

Respectfully, your statement there leads me to believe that you did not read my post.

The one with all the links…

It does not matter, since, I know you sincerely believe that I am free to believe what I want.

I am calling people out for how they have behaved towards me on this topic and now I am being yelled at by Red Dead Ryan for almost everything I have written here since day one. Nice one…fellas…:(

Since most people posting are from North America, and most of them from the USA, then surely it is more relevant to relate my comments to how things are in the USA than elsewhere, like mentioning the “at will” doctrine of employment.

“Rose, given the random nature of what happened, and the geography it occured over, there were about 19 million people exposed to this.”

Most of the 19 million people were not exposed to this at all. By your reckoning, Phil, most, if not all, of NZ (population and land size being similar to that of the area Chris Dorner covered) was affected by this man’s craziness. Not so, especially given the fact the Police were out in force with their Swat teams.

In fact, from Tuesday where Chris Dorner made his last stand, in a Big Bear Lake cabin, the population is approx. 6,000 people, with up to 100,000 people visiting the resort on any weekend. Moreover the two counties directly involved have between them a population of approximately 7 million. Chris Dorner told the people whose cars he carjacked that he did not want to hurt them and that included the two hostages he held at Big Bear. He had been clear who his targets were.

Therefore Phil exaggerated the population supposedly affected by more than double – ie hyping the event. The main reason why there was such a show of force from the LAPD is because Chris Dorner was targetting their own. Manhunts go on all the time and unfortunately people do get killed and injured. It is just that this one caught the media’s attention because the perpetrator was an ex-cop and navy reservist. So Chris Dorner’s girlfriend said he had guns lying around. That is not necessarily so unusual since firearm ownership is common in the US and there was probably little reason for the authorities to be that concerned, until he killed the couple last Thursday and made threats on his website…

People right at a scene or who are nearby are obviously more deeply affected than others who may see and hear about it via media, which is how the vast majority even knew about it, yes, even for those living in So Cal.

A few years ago, a woman was attacked while getting into her car, mugged and in the altercation, the assailant ended up killing her. This happened in a mall carpark, less than 5kms from where I live and where I often go myself to do shopping. In fact, I quite often park my car where she had hers. So yes, I can understand how things can be scary. We have old-fashioned roses under our bedroom windows because just before we moved here, a serial rapist was running wild in the area and brutally sexually assaulting/raping females of all ages while they were in their beds asleep. The previous owner had an alarm system installed, with a panic alarm button placed near her bed. They planted big THORNY rosebushes so that climbing in or exiting by these windows would be a difficult and painful business. She, along with her young daughter, had every right to be scared – the guy had attacked someone living in the next street. Fortunately, the police caught the guy by the time we moved here. The point is that I do know about fear and worry for my own safety as well as that of my three children. I resent the fact that many seem to think I take stuff like this lightly because I don’t and never have.

I am not saying that what Chris Dorner (killing those four people) and threatened to do was OK – it was not, but please, get a little perspective – That’s all I am saying, all I have ever been saying.

I will say sorry to Jay since it seems that you were more personally affected and had a great deal more to genuinely fear than the rest of the crowd here.

As for a mirror, bring on the mirrors because, believe me, it is not just me who may need to take a damn good look…:( !
Many of you do not have my respect either.

So, what you’re saying is, you have the right to feel scared knowing that a serial rapist prowled your neighhorhood before you moved there, but Phil cannot be concerned about a crazed gunman because the killer was being pursued by police over an area the size of your country. You also somehow justify reducing the tragedy even more by bringing up the gun ownership issue.

@295. Interesting how you, half a world away, have this amazing insight that none of us seem to comprehend, and apparently we all need you to spell it out for us. The only reason I can think of now for you to keep prodding this narcissistic diatribe along is you must be a product of Eugenics, and it’s time to assume your rightful place as ruler of the world….So now I’ll leave this as it started, observing that this thread also seems to be life imitating art.

This was a real killing spree. It seemed that David Gray had no intended targets. He just lost it over two days and men, women and children were killed and injured. He didn’t care who got in his way. He never said that he did not intend to hurt anyone – he just went crazy and shot up where, who, what, whenever…

I don’t need to be half a world away to know hype and bs, like the stuff you are trying to pull now, Phil. So now you don’t “comprehend” and call me out because I do appear to.

As for me, I do live in the vicinity of where those crimes occurred that I mentioned, ie 5kms or less. What about most of you – if you were actually being honest?

Go find that mirror, Phil!

Don’t have a nice day, because clearly you really did not mean me to have one.

@304. Keep digging that hole, Rose. Real killing spree? As opposed to the fake one that apparently I’m hyping and slinging the BS on now?

Keep reading, dear. I’m sure a few others will chime in. And have a really, really nice evening now. Pour yourself a glass of wine and relax. All this stress trying to educate the world is bad for your heart.

@301. I don’t hink I’ve suggested or implied that I have personal knowledge of any of the individuals directly involved in the situation, and if I have left that impression I’m the first to apologize for it. Only because Rose has branded me at the media BS’er now (which is really funny), I do live in southern CA. For full transparancy…
The four county area where Dorner’s travels took him the last week has a population of about 19 million people. No, I did not retrace his steps and count all the actual people he might have come in contact with.
I do live in Riverside, where the two officers were shot. I don’t personally know either of them, though my neighbor is on the force, and we do talk from time to time.
I live about a mile from the church where the service for the officer was held yesterday. Had helicopters over my house all day. If they panned out and you saw a tall bald guy in his yard, that was me.
My wife is an RN, and works at LLUMC, where the last to officers shot were taken for treatment. No, she was not directly involved with their care.
My wife has a friend in professional circles who claims to have dated Dorner in the past. No, we never saw them together.
We have family and friends in Yucaipa, about 15 miles from Angelus Oaks, where Mr. Dorner met his firey end. They were very jumpy about this turn of events.

I doubt that MJ, or any of the other locals here were ever in any danger, it’s just the proximity to it was getting folks on edge. Add to that that the cops bungled a few things, which fed the conspiracy trolls, and it made for an interesting week. Sucks, though, that some need to re-write it just to feed their own narcissistic tendecies…..

#301 – “Keep digging that hole, Rose. Real killing spree? As opposed to the fake one that apparently I’m hyping and slinging the BS on now?”

Yes! Keep digging that hole, Phil! Did I ever say that the Chris Dorn killing spree was a fake one? You said that – NOT ME.

There were differences which should have been apparent if you had read the link. Chris Dorn had specific targets, whereas David Gray seemed not have had. Chris Dorn did not go killing women and children just because…David Gray did.

Yes, you did hype it! Admit it.

#296 – “You also somehow justify reducing the tragedy even more by bringing up the gun ownership issue.”

God…the red herrings you chuck out. I have not reduced the tragedy. I did not bring up the gun ownership issue (presumably you mean the ongoing controversy over gun ownership/control that takes place (even) within the US borders). I related the fact that Dorn’s girlfriend reported that he had guns lying around. I could also relate the same in the case of one of my cousins who also has a licence to own at least one .22 hunting rifle. Were my cousin to have two guns out on the table being cleaned, then I could say truthfully, “I saw his guns lying around”. Duh. All it told LAPD was that Chris Dorn had more than weapon in his possession.

I am assuming that it is a given that in the US, along with other countries, if you use a gun (any gun) for the purpose of killing/maiming another human being, then that would be an illegal, a crime, irrespective of whether you had legal ownership of that gun or not. Once Chris Dorn used one of those weapons to commit premeditated murder, ie shooting the couple sitting in their car, then any legality or otherwise of his gun ownership would be moot. It certainly is here.

It is really hard to converse with so many irrational and hyped up people. BTW, you accuse me of this –

“Honestly, reducing the tragedy by saying how “only this number of people died from that person’s country’s military campaign in comparison to my country during WWII percentage-wise in terms of population” is completely arrogant and insenstive, not to mention ignorant.”

What is really dismissive and reduces the impact of deaths is by ignoring the ratios and percentages, which is what you and others have done. I never said that the loss of nearly half a million US soldiers during WW2 was not terrible – it was all terrible. However, the numbers themselves only tell part of the whole story, hence the ratio/percentages have also been given in relation to these deaths.

It is you (and others) who are being arrogant and insensitive, not to mention ignorant.

I wrote that it is really hard to converse with so many irrational and hyped up people. Case in point – this:

#241 – “Take your tired anti-U.S. attitude somewhere else. And as someone who has always wanted to travel to New Zealand someday, I am no longer interested becuase of you — as you are essentially representing New Zealand here, that has decided it for me — I would not spend on a dime on a country that has such ill will towards its friends in the U.S., and behaves so coldly about a dangerous killer on the loose in our neighborhoods.

FU, and the unapologetic elitist horse your rode in on.”

I must mention, just noticed it now, that this poster was the first to use the FU word and towards me. I have tried to refrain from actually commenting on this because I would have to say that this was one ignorant stupid posting if ever. Honey – there are 4,455,000 New Zealanders now and I am but ONE, ONLY 1, Numero Uno. I simply cannot represent all of NZ, even if I wanted to. What’s more, I have never claimed. I speak for myself, one female, born and raised in NZ – that is all.

Some New Zealanders are even more fervently “anti-American” than I seem to many of you, whereas many other New Zealanders are not.

Oh and I, speaking as ONE New Zealander am not that desperate for tourists that I need to have your not-so-nice self visit my shores, someone who appears to have never cleaned her clock or mirror!

I actually share this criticism of the media’s sensational coverage of certain stories, but I think the Dorner case deserved some headlines. The man essentially declared war on a major city’s police and their families. That’s newsworthy in my view, in whatever country it may occur.

And if someone doesn’t like the coverage, either turn the channel or voice a complaint to the media company. Or both. There are other world news outlets, on TV or the web.

@294. Aurore,
“Respectfully, your [whole comment] there leads me to believe that you did not read my post.The one with all the links…”

I think I did. 278? — you posting a link to and singled out Orci indicating he lied about someing, and another link to Orci saying they lied about statements made for ST09.

Now perhaps I misunderstood why you linked to those articles, but the excerpts you highlighted seem to be used to support a thesis that Orci lied once and most likely lied again. This despite your protestation that you would not see any of his statements as a lie, assuming a newly created orignal character in the guise of Harrison, since you define “original” canon as inclusive of the Alternate Reality timeline, and Harrison became “original” canon the instant he appeared on film in the editing room..

Well this place is becoming a particularly nasty site to visit lately…it’s a shame, really. Maybe Anthony should consider closing comments here for a bit to let people cool off. This kind of behavior is not what I typically see out of Trek fans, and it’s extremely disappointing.

Wes – Its because its not maintained and monitored as much as it used to be. This place used to be a fun place to chat about Trek but when Anthony goes away this place goes to crap with posters all of a sudden showing up out of nowhere then they go away when Anthony does come back.

There he goes again. Red Dead Ryan screaming at me to – what is it
“JUST SHUT THE F*CK UP!!!”

Last time, it was because I posted a very ordinary short storyline for Bob Orci’s attention, which RDR decided he didn’t like.

This time, it is over my comments re some of the media and then what followed. Why you should feel you have had the right to comment on the events taking place in California but not me is because you, MJ and others are buddies with your little niche carved out on trekmovie and god forbid anyone come in and “spoil” your zone.

Red Dead Ryan lives in Canada. I cannot recall which part of Canada, but the distance between Ontario and California is approx. 3,187kms and between Vancouver and California approx. 3,872 kms. Therefore, you, RDR were also nowhere near where Chris Dorner was doing his nut. So why didn’t he shut the f*ck up as well?

My political “ramblings” – it does seem that most have been, in some way, related to our understanding of Star Trek as it may relate to current affairs. I rarely initiate anything. I just respond to what other people comment on.

I am *sorry* if some are unable to understand, keep up intellectually with what I may write sometimes…oh well…what can I say?

@319. No worries. It was a rather patronizing comment toward current events that set off the latest flame war, on this thread. For some folks, the topic could be sticks and they would still feel the need to stir the pot.

@320. Let it go, man. It’s moved past patronizing and at the point where it’s all about the last word now. Someone, somewhere out there has an opinion of JJ and Star Wars now….I’d entertain some thoughts on how best to disect Jar Jar for some entertainment…

“I think I did. 278? — you posting a link to and singled out Orci indicating he lied about someing, and another link to Orci saying they lied about statements made for ST09.”

__________

I posted a link where Roberto Orci said what I already knew ; I would have to see the movie to know exactly who Harrison was.
And, another link where I learned that I would have to pay very close attention to what he was saying, in future interviews.
….Which is something I would have done anyway….

Reading the questions he’s being asked is important, of course.
…..So is the way in which he answers them…for I think he has to be extremely careful not to give away too much….without “lying”.

Which is why I wanted to know which interview you were referencing when you spoke of a “confirmation”, earlier.

It obviously was a confirmation…to you.

As far as I was concerned, even when I read the interview the day it was posted, I still thought that the character could be new to the “canon”.
(Long before I noticed Mr. Orci’s post about “lying”, in the comments section.).

“…since you define ‘original’ canon as inclusive of the Alternate Reality timeline, and Harrison became ‘original’ canon the instant he appeared on film in the editing room..”

Guilty as charged, your honour.

On other threads I’ve implied that John Harrison could be tied to the original canon. After all, Mr. Abrams did say that Harrison and Kirk had a “shared history”, or someting to that effect in a recent interview.

However I also believe that he could be a totally new character whose presence in the “original timeline” could be inferred.

I often said that Harrison could be anyone. I meant it.
So, who is he?

And even now I still fail to see any EVIDENCE that Cumberbatch is in fact playing KHAN – An augment, or at least an augment-like character, yes, but Khan? I think Alice Eve told the simple truth.
Maybe there were HINTS that he might be playing Khan, yes, but in my opinion these hints were never stronger/more evident than those pointing in any other direction…

“…since you define ‘original’ canon as inclusive of the Alternate Reality timeline, and Harrison became ‘original’ canon the instant he appeared on film in the editing room..”
——————————

Upon re-reading this thread, one thing is clear ; I owe you an apology.
I wrongly accused you of having misread one of my posts.

It is I who wasn’t really paying attention.

Our discussion started with your post (in reply to mine) @ 235:

“@198. Aurore
‘What is on screen is considered canon.
Unless I am mistaken.Thus, a new character would be canon ( to me) once revealed in the sequel.’
Sadly no.
If the character is new, created by Orci then the only option is that Orci lied.
Orci specifically confirmed that the character is from ORIGINAL Star Trek canon. However ‘original’ is defined to include what material, it cannot be inferred to apply to the Alternate Reality films.”

From time to time, when reading some of your posts on this thread, I made the mistake of ignoring your use of the word “original”.

Note that my…original… post was about Harrison being canon, to me, the instant he would appear on screen. I never said anything about him being an original character.

Moreover, when @ 278, I said the following:

“…. And, I believe that stating that ‘original’ is defined to include what material, it cannot be inferred to apply to the Alternate Reality films’ is an… opinion… you are entitled to.”

I thought you meant that a new character’s presence in the alternate timeline could not be inferred in the original one.

Which is clearly not what you were saying.

However, as I stated @ 329, given the way Mr. Orci answered the questions asked in the interview you linked to, if John Harrison was a new character, I, personally, would not consider Roberto Orci’s answer to be a lie.

He said the character was canon. Nothing more.

@198 I explained why , from my perspective, it would be true, and, this was already my reasoning when I first read the interview .

Which does not mean that John Harrison is not a character from …”original canon”.

It simply means that ** I ** want to wait until May/June 2013, in order to be sure.

@330, 331.
Evidence tends to suggest that the Eugenics backstory will be drawn on heavily for this story – I doubt, though, that these writers would actually draw any specific character from the source material, but one with their abilities. No Khan, but a ‘Khan”-like character.

Regardless of the name, Harrison probably dies at the end of the movie. Trek always kills their movie villians.

331
The beauty of it being an alternate universe, is that TWOK has allready happened. Thats what I loved about Trek 09 everything that came before it still happened, since it was a result of a villian that came from the prime timline and the inclusion of spock prime.

I have never looked at Trek 09 as a remake or a reboot, or even a prequel.

To me its a sequel to the 40 plus previous years of Trek we have been entertained by, since everything that happens is the result of a villian who originated from the prime timeline and with Spock Prime and all of his experiences and events having still occured with him.

(not sure if that is worded right lol but hopefully you get the drift.)

IN other words, just because in the alternate time line, Khan (if it does turn to out to involve Khan) does end up being killed, it doesnt erase the fact that Spock Prime, experienced the 2 previous encounters he had with Khan. Doesnt erase that Spock prime was killed as a result of the actions of Khan in the Mutara Nebula. It just means that it wont occur in the alternate time line.

McCOY: Are you out of your Vulcan mind? No human can tolerate the radiation that’s in there!
Spock: Been there, done that. Where’s Scotty?
McCoy: He’s passed out in the officers lounge…
Spock: Damn it…
McCoy: Ensign Redshirt McRachet has been holding things down here.
Spock: He’ll do (opens door) In you go!
McCoy: Do you think you could have given him the radition suit first?
Spock: (through intercom, to Ensign) Remember! Lift lid, flip switch right. Remember….
McCoy: Why do I get the feeling you have done this before?
Spock: Don’t get me started, today is a good day to die hard.

And if Anthony’s sources are correct and Khan is in the movie, that also means there is a strong possibilty that the other item listed in the article. Nimoy returning as Spock prime is accurate as well. even if Nimoy has since IMPLIED otherwise.

something else i thought of is since I read the leak about how the end of Fast and Furious 6 sets up the villian of Fast 7.

in that instance the supposed star who was going to be the villian of 6, claimed he wasn’t staring in Fast 6 even though reports indicated otherwise, but now that the audience response screenings for 6 are begining its been confirmed that said star was right he doesnt star in 6 but he appears at the end to set in motion the events of 7.

For all we know Benicio really was cast as Khan, but only as a brief end of the movie post or mid credits sequence to set up the events of Star Trek XIII. sort of like how Sam Jackson if you ever try to get him to sign a poster or video of the first Iron Man movie, refuses to sign it, and says I wasnt in that movie.(as he doesnt consider that little end credits tease as him actually being in the movie) he will sign Iron Man 2 or the avengers but absoluetly will not sign any thing from the first movie.

Rose, thanks for mean-spirited negative response and complete lack of morals and contrition.

And like it or not, you are one of the only persons representing New Zealand here, and so you are giving people a very, very poor opinion of people in New Zealand. You are a great discredit to your country, and come across and mean, jealous and belligerent to those of us who just happen to live int the U.S. or Canada. It is 100% clear that you think you are better than us and superior to us.

Again, I hope you never have to go through that fear that my kids and I experienced during this scare in San Diego this past week.

Being the person that I am though, I forgive you for your lack of sensitivity and your unbridled level of pride and hubris.

@343. Patronizing, yeah. And twice on Sunday. But she does not speak for or represent the population, so it’s a bit unfair to paint them with a broad brush. I had an opportunity to go to Dubai a few years ago, and despite all the Muslim rage you see on the news, found them to hard working and friendly people who really just wanted to live their lives. I suspect that, if given the chance, that’s what most folks want….

I have been to New Zealand twice, and did not meet anyone who had this negativity and animosity for the United States that has been demonstrated here. Nor did I mean anyone who spouted off such prideful elitist arrogance.

The people I met in New Zealand were generally salt-of-the-earth wonderful people…the kind of people who would readily apologize to you if they offended you in any way.

Keachick has obviously completely “flipped,” and hates all of us, and hates the U.S. and Canada.

There’s no good reason to continue a dialogue with a person so chock full of hate for others’ here. In her twisted view of this, she will always be “right” and will always be better than the rest of us.

And I GUARANTEE YOU that she will never say she’s sorry to me and my fellow Southern Californian’s who she has personally hurt here so unfairly with here despicable comments on the Dorner events.

I have no doubt that April is in the movie and now I am pretty sure that BC is playing … Yes … An deaged April … Cause I could have find the way how he deaged himself! And what is needed?! Yes Carol Marcus! As she is developing Genesis and we learned that Prime Spock was reborn more or less through it in ST3, BC/April uses Genisis for deage him and help his ill member of family! And in the end Carol Marcus saves the Day as Chris Pine told us in an former interview! Weller is maybe as mentioned before Admiral Marcus as he is the One which operates against his daughter and helps April in some way maybe! It was also mentioned with the New Vulcan colony would be Part of the movie so I feel thats not the strangest theory! ;)

I see that Disinvited has not commented here since his post at #217, the post I commented about that had everyone go ballistic at me, as well as patronizing at times.

#351 – Thank you for your kind comments. No, everything is not alright. I do not believe that my comments have been particularly mean, however people have browbeaten me very harshly. Admiral Archer’s Prized Beagle’s two posts really “take the cake”. “Congratulations, dear”…:( (read sarcasm). See I can do that as well

Please (re) read posts on this thread, posts which I would describe as discriminatory, rude, sarcastic, slanderous and offensive – just about every post on this thread, that has to do with the Dorner affair.

Curiously, the “gang” here comprising MJ, Phil, Red Dead Ryan, AAPB, K-7 – have I missed any of you? (some might dare to even venture to say “the usual suspects”?) have not chosen to take to task other posters, eg
AJ – #249, #252 and #256 or ObsessiveStarTrekFan – #230 or LogicalLeopard – #231, who all chose to agree with me on this media hype issue.

I have to wonder why that might be. Is it because the “gang” do not know where they come from or something else?

It seems that I am being deliberately targeted.

No, I will not apologize to any of you. You have all been extremely mean, hateful, rude, sarcastic, offensive, discriminatory and are given to spreading falsehoods about me.

I do not hate all Americans or Canadians nor have I ever, ever said that. I have not “flipped out”. May I suggest that the “usual suspects” have “flipped out” in a most egregious way. You all need to apologize to me.

Some of you Southern Californians may have been very upset and frightened by events for good reason, but the truth/facts – Yes, facts as opposed to rumour – is that at least 90% of Southern Californians would not have been directly affected by Chris Dorner being on the loose and making those threats. The vast majority of So Cal’s, including many coming to this site (and maybe posting) sat there, watching the events play out via the internet, the television screens in your living rooms, the car radio or reading the newspaper whilst drinking coffee, because that is how 95% of people get their news and are *impacted* by what they are told by the media! It happens everywhere.

“News” is mostly a voyeuristic event and why you hate me, and yes you do – that much is obvious, is because I think I inadvertently called you out on this! You are angry, guilty and embarrassed and you need to take it on someone and gee, Keachick already pisses us off with her much of the time reasoned and often factual “ramblings”, so here goes – let’s fling some sh*t towards her downunder and in AAPB’s case, I’ll fling sh*t at all NZ’ers. SHAME ON YOU ALL!

If only you would go spend a few bucks on purchasing a good mirror and have a good look into it!

There – I have said it. I guess you can ban me now, Anthony, only I hope you won’t!

I wrote this second post #356 because I thought the first had not gone through or had been deleted.

People should read all the posts here before making up their minds. Most longtime posters do know me reasonably well, as well as people like MJ. MJ – you know I don’t hate whole groups of people or nations, so why do you write this stuff? I don’t like some political, religious or other ideologies, however, as for people, I don’t know them which means I can neither like them nor dislike them. All I know is that they all share fundamental things in common – they need water, food, shelter, can feel pain, grief, joy, fear – that is what being sentient/human means.

I am really hurt and disappointed at how low some of you have stooped.

Why is is everytime you put your foot in your mouth, you blame me? I mean sure, I know you are a good person. But come on, you are being so incredibly stubborn here that it is really getting under the skin of those of us who live in SoCal. Seriously, just say, “sorry for unintentionally being insensitive to the events in Socal” and let’s all of us move on. I’ve had to say sorry many times on Trekmovie.com. You seem to think you are immune to ever having to say sorry to anyone. Just say it. Lose the stubborn for 30 seconds. Sheesh!

Also, I am not seeing your first post here? All I see is your post #355 where you start, “I wrote this second post…..” Your first post is not showing.

All, I am very disappointed the Keachick hasn’t even bothered to respond to my post @357 above where I tried to meet her halfway. I specifically mentioned that I thought she was a good person, and practically begged her to show some tiny ounce of contrition here….but… NO RESPONSE..

@362. She had several opportunities to save face, early on, and chose to ignore them all. Given all she did on her next to last post was to review all her talking points, I’m under no illusion she understands how her comments were received.

MJ – You do not know anything. I am always saying sorry, even when it is really up to someone else to say something nice to me. You have no real idea who I am and what people like you have done to me…:(

Here’s another example of an actor denying that they were playing a character in a film and then we find out that they were basically lying. First, I’ve written above that Naomiie Harris denied she was Moneypenny when we find out she was in Skyfall. (@ 92)

Well, Marion Cotillard denied she was Ras Al Ghul’s daughter in The Dark Knight Rises. to the media. Link. And guess what? Yep. You guessed it. She told a fib. Oh and by the way, we knew who the villains for The Dark Knight Rises way before the movie came out. Did not spoil the film or the box office. Just saying J.J. But when Pegg or Eve denies Khan is in the film, just remember fibbing is done among actors.

I say this again. We’ll find out who is John Harrison in May along with Kirk. We can all agree on this. He’s a canon character with super strength who wants revenge on earth. Waiting for the Gorgon faction to come forth. :-) And where’s the Cyrano Jones faction? :-)

I just saw a part of a JJ MTV interview where he made mention, quickly and matter-of-factly, of Carol Marcus’ importance to the story which made me wonder (and forgive me, this probably has been discussed before), what are the chances that Carol Marcus will be pregnant with the future (pun intended) David Marcus by film’s end. And further, are we going to go forward with a James T. Kirk who is aware that he is a father? As David was a retconning of TWOK, there were no implications of Kirk-as-Father in TOS because due to the fact and nature of this retcon TOS’ Shat/Kirk was NOT a father! (Damn! Talk about convoluted and multiple dimensions!)

Now I think about it, how a Kirk who grew up without a father would react to becoming a father himself is something I’d like to see explored. What was John Harrison’s line about family? Hmm. And as a storytelling device, Jim and Carol’s potential or impending parenthood could have resonance with Noel Clark’s character’s family’s situation. (apostrophe es!) And with Spock, Sarek and the late Amanda Grayson’s as well. Oh God! I just Uhura and Spock don’t get into ‘a family way’! Unless it’s an ‘or’ situation and not an ‘and’. That would be waaaay to much!

And will Carol-with-child be a dangling thread at film’s end for Star Trek Into Light ( or whatever it’s to be titled)? Of course I don’t know but I think the over arching theme of this movie is going to ultimately prove to be Family – the coming together of, the building of, the defense of, the solidification of, the repair of…Family. Spock’s, Kirk’s, Harrison(Khan,Garth,Syb..?)’s, Noel Clark’s character’s and of course the Enterprise’s.

Like I said this has probably been mentioned and discussed before but it all just dawned on me.

Shat/Kirk was a father, the father of David Marcus. It is just that Carol Marcus did not want him to be part of her or their son’s life – TWOK – Kirk to Carol, “I did as you asked. I stayed away.” Prime Kirk hid his pain at the *loss* of his son and this was evident in the conversation Kirk and McCoy had in the lift, just after Kirk had been told that Carol Marcus wanted to speak to him. McCoy made some quip and Kirk retorted, “You, doctor, of all people, should be aware of the dangers of opening old wounds”. Later it became apparent just what those wounds were and how deep they seemed to go.

Whether the writers intended or not (frankly I doubt they gave it any thought at all), I do think this goes to explain Kirk’s “I need my pain” in Star Trek V (an important movie in terms of understanding character). In Star Trek III, Kirk loses his son again – this time for good, as David was murdered. Double loss and unlike Carol Marcus, Kirk didn’t even have memories of holding, of seeing his son grow up. I actually wonder if Kirk had his pain taken away by Sybok, he feared that he would never be able to feel anything at all again – not ever.

In the alternate universe, a different scenario may well unfold and this could be an interesting and even more beneficial for all concerned. It is really up to the writers. Perhaps, in this alternate universe, not only will Kirk be the second Enterprise captain to have a beagle mascot, but the first captain to get the opportunity to share his quarters with his lover and mother of his son and/or daughter, if only on occasion. This is DOABLE!

@367. One problem with that – because Pines Kirk bears more of a resembelence to Zapp Brannigan then he does Shatners Kirk, and this movie picks up shortly after the events of Trek 09, it’s going to be a real stretch to believe that love and command will mature him in shuch short order. Under these circumstances a Carol Marcus pregnancy is going to reek of a plot device – why should I believe she is going to make a man of him when he was busy trying to play grab-@$$ with every skirt that came within sensor range in the last movie?

I certainly do know that is true but my point is – Before TWOK when TOS was in production and up through TMP for all intents and purposes Kirk WAS NOT a father. As I said in my post the Kirk of those productions was not a father and only became a father after the fact by virtue of the retcon of Trek history that occurred with TWOK. When those stories were produced David and Carol Marcus did not exist and were not factors or influences on how the character James T. Kirk was written or performed. I only wonder about the possibility of the Kirk character being shown at his young age with the full knowledge of the existence of progeny. Particularly given his own lack of a father growing up. Again I’m aware that the retconned post-TWOK canon has Kirk aware of David from David’s beginning but until TWOK Kirk in the actuality of the writers and we the viewers was not and could not have been aware of David because David DID NOT EXIST until he was written into Trek history and canon and then retroactively inserted into Kirk’s life.

369. Phil –
” One problem with that – because Pines Kirk bears more of a resembelence to Zapp Brannigan then he does Shatners Kirk, and this movie picks up shortly after the events of Trek 09, it’s going to be a real stretch to believe that love and command will mature him in shuch short order.”

What problem Phil? I never suggested that Kirk would be matured into a Shatner-type Kirk instantly with the knowledge that he’s a parent or soon to be one. But it certainly could be an influencing factor towards that. I know for me, becoming a father at the age of twenty-one made me more Shatner-like (I kid). But parenthood (even absentee parenthood) along with command responsibilities would be maturing factors wouldn’t you think?

In the MTV interview, Mr Abrams said that Carol and Kirk would meet early on, in the movie.

I’m interested in knowing how their relationship began.

From what he ( and, especially Christopher Pine, some time ago ) said I really got the impression that although there would possibly be a “hint” of romance, as a scientist, Carol would, evidently, be extremely busy helping solve the crisis our heroes would face, in the movie :

“She plays a science officer, she’s someone who is part of the adventure…and I think Chris is right…It’s very much an action/adventure movie and once that gets going it’s a difficult thing to sort of park the story and say…you know…let’s do a romantic interlude (?). But…her role is important she wouldn’t be in the movie otherwise.”

crazydaystrom – True, we did not know that Shat/Kirk was a father in the TOS series. However, I have always thought that Kirk had quite a paternal side to him and it showed itself in the way he was with any children. Perhaps this might have been about my own fantasies/projections or perhaps something to do with how Shatner played that role. After all, William Shatner was the father of three young daughters when he was making TOS. Or maybe, my perception of the Kirk character was not just subjective and the writers of TWOK saw what I saw, hence the retconning. Young Kirk becoming a father and then being denied access and still a bit wounded years later seemed consistent with what we saw of Kirk in the TV TOS series.

As I wrote above, I did say how I would like to see a Pine/Kirk becoming a father and being there scenario. However, I am not writing any story and I agree that it would be interesting to see how this Pine/Kirk, given his background and propensities, would handle the news of a pregnancy and impending fatherhood. Given that most of us, if not all, tend to be (slightly) more subjective than objective, I do think it could be that *Carol* (she does not have to be Carol) becoming pregnant to this young Kirk and having their baby may well have a maturing and stabilizing influence. It may be that by Carol Marcus denying prime Kirk any participation in their son’s upbringing, is what made that Kirk appear/behave in an often very casual manner towards many women. Maybe Kirk needs parenthood as much as he needs the Enterprise – both providing a focus for his efforts.

I know – I suspect many of you reading this are shocked and horrified at such a notion, however, @ Bob Orci and co, do not dismiss this out of hand, PLEASE.

@371. I won’t discount the possibility – unfortunately, though, parenthood amoung the immature is just as likely to magnify the immaturity. My wife, the pediatric nurse, has shed more then a few tears over the damage inflicted on children by their immature parents. Kudo’s for stepping up at an early age. Parenting is a tough job…

My observation – and I could be wrong here – is still that past behavior is still the best predictor of future behavior. Civilian Kirk was immature, Academy Kirk was immature, and Cadet Kirk was immature. In this universe, it would be a real shocker if Carol Marcus was the only woman he got pregnant….and this Kirk would probably be just as inclined to suggest an abortion as he would to accept the role of father. This universe is condensing the career experience of Kirk into a few weeks. The next installment is in the can at this point, but I would hope they keep the focus on Captain Kirk, and leave the fratboy in the past.

Rose –
“Perhaps this might have been about my own fantasies/projections or perhaps something to do with how Shatner played that role.”

More the former than the latter I would have to think Rose. Kirk-as-lady’s man ever has been a basic and defining characteristic of the guy. How many times did Kirk interact with children? Only three come to mind immediately. But the flirting/kissing Kirk eps are the decided majority of them.

“Young Kirk becoming a father and then being denied access and still a bit wounded years later seemed consistent with what we saw of Kirk in the TV TOS series.”

More projection, I believe, but perhaps…

“Maybe Kirk needs parenthood as much as he needs the Enterprise – both providing a focus for his efforts”

Maybe. As I said, (Pine)Kirk having grown up without a Dad would, I believe, be greatly affected by (immanent) fatherhood. And as I said I suspect this movie, when all is said and done, will ultimately be about family.

@372. Different people will want to see different things – I’m in a minority because for me Kirk and Spock is the dynamic, and everyone else is a role player. It’s been pointed out before that the producers are attempting to compress into three movies what Kirks backstory took years to develop, so if this installment they need to set up the more important players, it will get done. It might not be pretty, but it gets done.

374. Phil –
“My observation – and I could be wrong here – is still that past behavior is still the best predictor of future behavior. Civilian Kirk was immature, Academy Kirk was immature, and Cadet Kirk was immature……This universe is condensing the career experience of Kirk into a few weeks. The next installment is in the can at this point, but I would hope they keep the focus on Captain Kirk, and leave the fratboy in the past.”

You seem to contradict yourself there Phil. On one hand you imply that because Kirk WAS immature he WILL BE immature. And on the other though things are moving along so seemingly quickly you hope for the more mature, less ‘fratboy’ Kirk.

Let’s face it, the ‘mature Kirk’ of the past has/had women issues. He was unable or unwilling to make long term commitments and even on into his years something of a skirt chaser. Will NuKirk prove to be any different?

@378. Nah, it’s just a recognition that we have Kirk, the fictional character, in whom each individual may see an attribute not noticed by others, and then we have Kirk, the Hollywood creation, whom we will all see in the third person. Both are similar, and we will project what we hope to see, then compare it to what we are given. I would expect this Kirk to behave in a similar pattern, yet acknowledge that others may take the character elsewhere.
Speculation on what the character is really just a point of view. I may not agree with it, that doesn’t necessarilary make it wrong….

“Kirk-as-lady’s man ever has been a basic and defining characteristic of the guy. How many times did Kirk interact with children? Only three come to mind immediately. But the flirting/kissing Kirk eps are the decided majority of them.”

Kirk was a captain on a starship which did not normally have families on board, so therefore his interaction with children would inevitably be limited. Also, how many single (young) guys have much, if anything, to do with children? At best, they may be an uncle who occasionally get to interact with nephews/nieces. Star Trek was consistent here. Kirk, along with the rest of the crew, had little or no interaction with children because of the nature of their mission and the rules that Starfleet appeared to have at this stage.

Kirk being a lady’s man does not preclude the possibility, probability, of him perhaps wanting to have children, be a dad. How you might relate to adults sexually, or what your sexual orientation is, has little or no bearing on how you might relate to a child/children. Kirk in TOS appeared to enjoy spending time with those children. In one episode, he did not even have to interact with them at all, as he assigned other crew to be their caregivers. He chose to. Perhaps this was because rarely did such an opportunity arise so he made the most of the situation. Compare his attitude as opposed to Captain Picard’s attitude.
(Both captains did their duties as in securing and ensuring the ongoing welfare of any children whilst they were aboard the Enterprise.)

Wow so much fail in this thread when it became derailed over the Dorner train wreck. I see plenty of blame to pass around to nearly most posters in this thread.

Rose from NZ: You made the classic mistake of approaching the Dorner incident with an ethnocentric attitude that is letting your own cultural values color your perceptions of another’s culture. Rose you failed to suss out the US culture is one built upon fear and paranoia. US citizens are so jacked up on fear and paranoia they are all too willing to shoot at whatever goes bump in the night without regard to confirming their target let alone what is beyond their target. I am a gun owner and love to shoot guns for sport. I am a staunch supporter of the second Amendment and even I will concede there are far too many Americans who should not own firearms for the sake of their own safety and the safety of others. I understand what you were trying to say regarding the Dorner train wreck but I’m afraid you underestimated how skittish paranoid fearful Americans would react to a train wreck like the Dorner incident based upon how NZ citizens would have reacted to a similar train wreck.

Admiral Archer’s dog: You make the classic mistake of assuming one foreigner’s opinion represents the values and opinions of everyone who hails from New Zealand. That is rediculous to the extreme. I visit Canada frequently and I’ve had to defend the US against negative opinions on more than one occasion while in Canada. Seems some Canadians believed all Americans agreed with the policies of George W. Bush which is not true and I had to point that out more than once. Despite some Canadians not seeing US nationals in the best of light I did not boycott Canada and refuse to visit Canada due to the opinions of a few.

Nearly everyone who attacked Rose of NZ: Wow some of you need to get over yourselves. This is the 21st century and anyone who spends time on the internet should know, by now, not every person who lives outside the USA believes the USA is the gold standard all countries should aspire to become. While many citizens of other countries have positive opinions of the US, some have pronounced negative opinions of the US. Those of you who attack someone who does not see the US with rose colored glasses are simply furthering the foreigner anti-American stereo type of the typical American of being some loud mouthed cowboy spouting “America is the best stars and stripes forever everyone else can suck it” attitude. Now I’m not saying anyone should not express their opinions because US society is built upon the foundation of free expression. However to attack someone simply because they don’t hold the USA in high regard makes you just as guilty as Admiral Archer’s dog within this thread.

Now my two cents about BC and who he is supposed to be. Maybe he’s an augment based upon the Khan template but with revisions to the base template thus he is Khan 2.0 both a canon character and also not Khan 1.0 (oh I hope I’m really really wrong about this).

Query: Is it realistically possible that Cumberbach is actually only the front man antagonist for now (the Harrison character that was on the bridge in Space Seed), that Del Toro really wasn’t let go over money, that it is all a ruse, then, meaning also that Cumberbach would be willing to humble himself for the good of the cause, and maybe even that most of Del Toro’s acting could have also been done in secretly? I’m wondering if anyone knows what Del Toro’s whereabouts were during the actor-filming season of the production. If anyone could deliver anything close to a Montalban-class performance for the role of Khan, it would be him, including the right look, which I believe has a significant amount to do with it. And the idea of Del Toro walking away from this over money, well, I’m suspicious.