Supply and demand dictate wages and salaries. If women were actually paid less for doing the same job, every employer would fight to hire women to gain an advantage over competitors! The media has worked hard to turn this into a controversial issue involving “sexism.”

Sharon

That’s easy. According to last week’s 5-4 vote of the U.S. Supreme Court. we women cannot be trusted to control our own health-care issues, and saving our lives in the event of serious late-term complications is unlawful. These five white Catholic males see the proper role of women as homebound servants, consorts and brood-mares, venturing into the business world only as ornaments and hostesses to aid the male’s ascendancy and esteem. That view naturally translates into lower wages, specifically designed to discourage women from entering the old-boys club of the workplace.

Les Harris

>>

One word: bias.

Reality

11 words: A study can be created to produce any result you want.

Meghan

I recently had this discussion with a colleague of mine who contends that women earn less because they don’t negotiate well and don’t ask for what they want. In some situations I might agree, but I also think that in other situations where women are the ones doing the hiring, women don’t advocate for each other and donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t offer higher salaries either.

I agree with the Good ole’ boys comment Sharon made, but I also blame the women who have been able to make higher wages don’t spread the wealth and prosperity.

Rye

In 8 years of professional work experience as an engineer, every single woman I have ever worked with or for has earned equal to or better pay than me – often times much better than me on the basis of similar levels of experience. I have worked for two public entities and three private entities – both here in Colorado and in Northern California. I don’t really understand where the alleged pay difference is coming from – at least in my profession.

engineer

I am a female engineer, age 56. When I was just out of college, I experienced very little bias. But after a few years the bias became very obvious. Women are not given the job assignments that get someone promoted. When I was a senior engineer at two large companies, the men at the same level, doing the same jobs, were paid at least $20,000 more than I was. Also, men at the same ability level received promotions, so the gap was even greater. At the age of 56, I have had five months of full time work since August 2003. Since last August I have applied for more than 250 jobs. I get great feedback but the younger males are the ones hired. Employers complain that they can’t find good employees, but women over 50 with advanced degrees in engineering, architecture, chemistry, physics and business are substitute teaching while no one will hire them. When I worked at large temecom companies, I saw the management allow multi-million dollar projects to go down the drain rather than allow women to become project leaders and fix them. It is not just bias. It is a real backlash against the idea of women having their own wealth, owning their own homes and controlling their own money.

engineer

because they accept a job without negotiating to pay them more.

Business Owner

I agree–you can produce a study to agree with whatever findings you want it to agree to. Remember the study saying that girls are being left behind at school? It was recently proven to not only be false, but a flat out lie with no real basis of fact. In my business, we hire the best person for the job, and that is never based on what’s between their legs. I’m guessing this study was done by someone with an axe to grind.

Actuary

There are other factors going into someone’s gross compensation package other than wages. Such other fringe benefits are short-term and long-term disability costs. Any actuary can tell you that a woman exiting college’s std and ltd costs are more than a man’s costs. This is primarily due to child-bearing costs, but nonetheless, until men can get pregnant, women’s costs are more. If an employer has $40,000 to spend on an employee, they can spend $37500 on a man with $2500 in medical costs, or $32500 on a woman with $7500 costs. Why should the employer be required to spend 45000 on an employee that he was only planning to spend 40000 on?

Jay

The labor market dicates salary based on job demand vs. qualified canidates. I guess it’s easier to blame gender, than to accept the principles guiding economics and labor markets…..

Ed Wood

They do not demand more. I see it all the time at jobs that get so bad all the legal men quit and all you have left are women and illegals. If women would just stand up and quit when they were getting ripped off. And no you can’t sue every time sometimes you have to be a “M-N” take your lumps and move on. No crying to daddy! But women tend to want to have their cake and eat it too! And most men will let them. So we have chaos? I do not know what to say when one sex wants everything equal but really they want everything?

Jay

Also, if you would like an example of gender discrimination, look no further than Katie Couric vs. C. Gibson/B. Williams. Both male anchors capture (much) higher ratings, however Couric is paid nearly double/triple what the men make. I guess they don’t write articles in the Post about that …………….http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53933

michael

I think the article says it all. Men are more apt to take higher paying jobs and incur more hardship. I wish the article would have broken down the research by vocation. I wonder what a male vs female tractor trailer driver earns given the same years of experience and performance records? I know men are more apt to spend longer periods of time away from home in austere conditions than women, i.e. working the North slope in Alaska or harvesting King Crab from the dangerous seas. I think the disparity is far more attributable to the nature of a profession than discrimination…I’m in the military…We all get paid the same based on rank and time in service…no disparity there…I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, I’d just like more concrete evidence. The article is very weak and lacks tangible specifics.

Archie

Simple. They spend most of the day talking their genetically mandated 20,000 words. Whereas men only speak 5,000. Therefore the men have more time for work.

djva

The model was pay for contribution. I recently hired a female from the London Business School. Right at budgeting time, which she was hired to lead, she went out on maternity leave. Left me holding the bag for three months. Another woman at the same company (Cisco) was out on maternity for months. She returned to part-time duty. When a male in a more senior role asked for the same deal the VP (male) declined it. The running joke in the office was he did not look as good in heals. Of course, this particular women dressed to kill and often times her blouse was unbuttoned far enough to see it all. HmmmÃ¢â‚¬Â¦oh yeah, and then she cut a special deal with the same VP to work from home 50% of the time, which was really 80% of a full time week. The remaining 20% was Ã¢â‚¬Å“my timeÃ¢â‚¬? meaning Ã¢â‚¬Ëœher time.Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ What a joke but reality. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t empathize at allÃ¢â‚¬Â¦

djva

and, to comment 16…who was making more per hour? The woman –

winnie

Michael hits the nail on the head. To attribute the gap to a single cause is simplistic. Sexism is a likely cause. But so is the social trend that more couples choose for the mother to interrupt her career for the sake of raising children, sometimes at a critical point in her career trajectory. But studies that don’t account for the income disparities across different fields (engineer vs. English teacher) that result from the individual’s choice of career, but instead compare the average man’s earnings to those of the average woman are worthless. Show me a study that finds that the average income within fields are consistently lower for women vs. men and I will gladly join in the outrage.

HR Professional

As several people have stated, women are less likely to negotiate and counteroffer than men. Men are more likely to counter on a job offer, and it pays off. Men are more likely to ask for more money year after year. Women are more likely to wait quitely for someone else to tell them they received a small wage; men go and ask for the wage. This impact, perhaps 5% in the first year, compounds at each salary review and each new job/negotiation. Skip to 20 years out of college, and even women who have not left the labor market to rear children will earn 20-years-worth of salary negotiations less than an equally-qualified man. No company is going to say, “Hey Jane, Joe just negotiated a 15% salary increase, so the company wants to give you a 15% increase also.” So, Jane, if you want to earn as much as an equally qualified man, be proactive. (And, don’t remove yourself from the labor force for a decade.)

Borat

Women have smaller brains.

ron

women making less is a false myth being shoved down our throats…

women are more likely to get hired over a man,

there are now, more women in college than men thanks to the gender biased teaching systems designed to destroy mans role in society

Ed Wood

There seems to be an element of truth here and a consensus is building. Humans have only lived in the Chaos of PC for about 50 years. The laws of nature may not accommodate our unnatural desire to make everything equal, as well as a few billion Muslims. That direction stinks too. There must be a balance some where? I think we are in the beginning phases of “Harrison Bergeron.” We are handicapping the gifted to make them equal? LCD the lowest Common Denominator.

—-Harrison Bergeron———-

Harrison Bergeron is a short story about the life of a family in AmericaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s future. … The short story Harrison Bergeron is told most likely by its writer. … George and his son Harrison are both very intelligent. … HarrisonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s intelligence is such a threat to society he is taken to jail and is given several enormous handicaps.
When Harrison is taken away from his parents, neither of them can get very upset with the fact that their fourteen year old is in jail. …
The climax of this story was when Harrison Bergeron escaped from jail and broke out of all his given handicaps. … Harrison began to scream Ã¢â‚¬Å“I am the Emperor! … Harrison thought she was beautiful and began to dance with her. …
Harrison and the girlÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s joy and grace from one another soon exploded and they began to levitate in the air and kiss each other.

Mike

Sharon’s silly comments (#2) indicate the usual cry-baby feminist position….always everyone else’s fault.
As a long time manager having dealt with personnel and pay issues for many years with several companies, I can tell you women who work the same as men get paid the same…those who leave the marketplace and come back earn less, as they should.
Reality’s comment (#4) says it all. Spin spin spin…..

George

All of this is nonsense. There are two main reasons why women make less money for performing the same job:
1. Men still have all the power in the world and, as long as that remains true, women will be second class citizens in the business world.
2. Men have succeeded in finding enough women to prop up their ridiculous reasons for this inequality to prevent women from making any real progress.
I remember the long decade of the 70’s when the Equal Rights Amendment was being debated in the state legislatures. It was narrowly defeated. Had it passed, we would not be having this discussion today and this issue would have been settled 30 years ago.
Too bad, folks. Women missed the boat when they had the chance to achieve true equality and now we’re opening up the debate again without a real solution. Too bad we didn’t trust the ERA in those days. We never seem to do what is right when we have the chance. Instead, we give in to ignorant fears about unisex toilets and other lies that opponents use to cloud the issues and block any real progress.

Sheri

Because society has been designed since the beginning of time to cater to and protect the male’s fragile ego. They need this special treatment because not only after all this time, blood still only flows to one um….body part at a time. There “larger” brains still only allow them to do one thing at a time and tell themselves that they’re a miracle.

Mary

For those of you not paying attention to the study, without taking into consideration the ‘time in service gap’ for women, the gap is even wider.

Is it sexism – absolutely. And sexism is rampant in this world.

Hasn’t anyone noticed that one thing the religious Christian right has in common with the religious Moslem right is ‘keeping women in their place’ despite both Christ & Mohammed honoring women?

In Asian, South & Central American, African & Eastern European conflicts/wars, one of the tactics used is to rape women (south of the border, they seem to be particularly fond or raping nuns)?

In addition, I found it intriquing that the men seemed to think that Imus’ rant against the Rutgers basketball team was merely racist. If you read the transcript, it started with him & his cohort disparaging their looks – how DARE female athletes actually look athletic, instead of looking looking & being helpless little Barbie dolls! While Imus also disparaged a black female journalist who refused to come on his show by referring to her as a ‘cleaning lady’, I have yet to hear of Imus slamming an all black male team or a black man who refused to come on his show. If he had left out the ‘nappy-headed’ part, he’d still have a job. Only Nike, which is going to bring backs the ‘if you let me play’ ads for women in sports seems to understand that – neither Sharpton nor Jesse Jackson seemed to understand that rap lyrics advocating raping & ‘capping’ women is a problem too.

Women are belittled daily, from folks commenting on Katie Couric’s wardrobe on the job (while we are never told about the men’s clothing & accessories), to detemining that men with multiple partners are ‘manly’ while women with the same number of partners are sluts, to slamming Ms. Pelosi for doing something nobody would have batted an eye at had a man done it.

I will believe we have come a long way when the face of major corporate boards, along with Congress, reflects in both gender race, the make-up of this country – but as long at the good ol’ boys club is in power, I will probably not live to see it. The saddest fact of all (which white males don’t seem to get) is that this is simply part of a rich white men’s ‘business as usual’ tactic to divide the entire spectrum of workers – if we all united, the entire work force would be better off.

As far as Ron’s comment, interesting how he chooses to ignore that girls’s admissions to colleges/universities could be even higher, if the colleges didn’t let in lesser qualified males for the sake of a diversified campus!

Mark

The fact that women have been actively seeking careers at all is historically relatively new. To acccomplish what they have since the 60s, it has taken a lot of friction and conflict, but that’s how things usuallly need to grow and evolve anyway. It’ll take some time to gain the equality in income they lack. There are literally thousands of years of male-dominated history to counter-balance (i.e., not to ‘overcome’, not ‘overthrow’, not to defeat, but to supplement in a new way).

To Ron (no 21), the statistic is true, but not for the reasons you state. But rather men are challlenged to find new roles as well, and a lot of guys are simply missing the boat. It’s not a matter of proving your masculinity on some field of battle anymore. We have to grow up, man, and stop playing with our GI Joes and guns.

As a result of the challenge facing both genders, a lot of people in our society, men and women included, who are unable or unwilling to take advantage of the new possibilities simply fall back in ignorance, resignation, and blame others. The usual suspects are the media, the colleges, the liberals, Hollywood.

And they’re right. Add individual and collective human growth to that list. All of those elements just named are driving society towards progress and growth. Yeah, there’s a lot of injuries, ugliness and mistakes along the way, but we have to evolve as a society and as a species, growing up always hurts.

But things are happening so fast now, that sitting in one place, clinging to our outdated ideas of how things should be, are hurting even more. Our anger and resentment comes from the fact that the things we all hold as beloved are being ripped out of our hands.

Then if we still can’t let go, the next wave comes, until we arrive at a situation resembling today, where humanity is completely polarized into the progressive elements, still blundering along, sometimes spectacularly, but still going forward, and the die-hard conservatives, with their guns, wars, hate, and pseudo-Christianity. And above all, their feeling of being victimized by the first group.

There is no standing still however, and the boatman is calling.

Chris

I think Ron may be onto something, by the way. When you factor in the liability cost of women getting pregnant they actually make about what men do.

But I’m not so sure that women should NOT make less than men. After all, shouldn’t society be encouraging women to stay home since we know that the kids that tend to do the best are those with involved parents–and often a stay-at home mom?

The feminists who frequent this blog will cry chauvenism, of course. And let me be clear that I do think women should have the same right to work as men and that you can be a good parent and still go to work. But I think pay-scales are good ways of regulating social behavior. Engineers are paid more because we want to encourage the technological innovation they provide for our country. Moms have an important job to do in raising their children–why shouldn’t society want to use pay to encourage that?

(And, by the way, we do with child tax-credits and the like).

Bat Man

They don’t earn more because they don’t deserve it. They should be home raising children.

og oggilby

Since 1973 when I go my first job I found that even when I was far more qualified women would get my job based on their looks. Also in every job I’ve had women lots of women were in higher positions and getting paid more. I agree with the other post the expounded on the claim that men at least start asking immediately for more money while white women wait for it to magically appear. A study has shown the ethnic women don’t have the same problem because like men they are more aggressive and ask or demand more money and often get it. No matter who you are the employer will try to pay as little as possible it has nothing to do with sex. So what women are demanding more and more is not “equality” but simply MORE and they will deny this to their grave. But the media loves this story because it sells papers even though it’s false. I’m tired of being the object of prejudice in the workplace. In today’s world look around and you will find far more women than men holding jobs.

Big E

I hope all this sexism will prevent Hillary from every living in the White House again.

Anonymous

Gosh, I wish I had seen this study before I spent $50,000 for the degree that my male bosses at a local Aerospace giant told me I MUST have to be promoted……but then again, I got laid off anyway within a year after having a baby, in spite of stellar performance reviews for the 12 years previous that I was there. At that point, the reason I didn’t earn what my male co-workers earned was because I couldn’t afford child care because I was unemployed….the degree was supposed to be the answer, but it wasn’t.
On the plus side, however, I have a well-adjusted, happy, smart teenager now who has had the luxury of having a mom who was around a lot of the time, to help with homework and go out and play and listen without the distraction of work problems, not working an 80+ hour week and out of town on business half the time. Yup, I earned a LOT less money in the last 15 years than I could have……but raising a terrific kid is priceless. Maybe that’s why we earn less–we have our priorities straight.

k

Gosh, I wish I had seen this study before I spent $50,000 for the degree that my male bosses at a local Aerospace giant told me I MUST have to be promoted……but then again, I got laid off anyway within a year after having a baby, in spite of stellar performance reviews for the 12 years previous that I was there. At that point, the reason I didn’t earn what my male co-workers earned was because I couldn’t afford child care because I was unemployed….the degree was supposed to be the answer, but it wasn’t.
On the plus side, however, I have a well-adjusted, happy, smart teenager now who has had the luxury of having a mom who was around a lot of the time, to help with homework and go out and play and listen without the distraction of work problems, not working an 80+ hour week and out of town on business half the time. Yup, I earned a LOT less money in the last 15 years than I could have……but raising a terrific kid is priceless. Maybe that’s why we earn less–we have our priorities straight.

Mike

It is a macho thing that a man MUST make more than the woman! As our society advances you still see things that are still lagging back in the caveman, I’m sorry, caveperson era!

D

I think everyone should be careful with the cries for legislative redress. Historically the outcome isn’t as expected, and leads to a different set of problems. If you take away women’s flexibility to rear children to make them equal with men, is that an outcome you wish to ponder? Is getting a bad performance review because you aren’t a team player a worry? It might be if the definition of team player is 60+ hrs a week, and no excuses for family time.

You can legislate this, but the changing the minds of management, and their perceptions of women, is a long term thing. I believe forcing the short term goal with law, will only make matters worse. My ex got 3 months of maternity leave, I had to take my remaining week of vacation just to be with her. She decided not to go back to work, but that was hardly an option for me.

Be casreful what you wish for…

janice

How can anyone twist pay scale into catholic bashing is beyond me. The problem is not related to catholic. Someone seems to have a chip on her shoulder if she can relate the two issues. The problem is that women need to be more assertive and say that they will be paid for thier worth. When people make outlandish remarks like Sharon did it just make the rest of us look like fools. Way to go Sharon.

Susan

Reading some of the bone headed, sexist comments in the previous list, I think it speaks volumes. Women in many cases are not respected for their contributions, and are labeled “problems” because they bear the children. We are a LONG way from equality, unfortunately.

Sarah

there are some good comments here . I especially appreciate Mark’s comment on long term progress (27).

While I think all the personal anecdotes here are valuable, you can’t make an overall judgment on American pay scale based on one person’s life experience.

There should be more consideration in this article regarding birth rates and maternity leave. Young women just out of college are statistically less likely to have children and leave the workplace, so the wage gap is more narrow. As they get older, the probability of pregnancy gets higher,and the wage gap widens, as women are passed over for promotions because there is liability cost associated with giving more responsibility to an employee who might leave.

What should be considered here is that not all women intend to have children, and if they do, do not intend to quit their jobs once their children are born.

Additionally, more men are choosing to stay home. According to the 2003 census bureau, 18.5% of fathers stayed home while their wives worked.

There needs to be a shift in consciousness with regard to how we consider parenting and associated job liability, from employers and from government. In Sweden, employers are required to offer equal maternity and paternity leave upon the birth of a child. I’d like to see how that would change things here.

And with regard to all the femi-nazi comments: Feminism is another word for gender equity. It has nothing to do with man-hating, or advocating that women are in any way better than men.

Old Fart

To comment #7:
Your’s is a great example of how if one WANTS to see bias they will, no matter the reality.
As an aging male engineer myself (a little under 50) I have run into the EXACT scenarios you talk about with pay disparity & am even dealing with one presently with a new employee making excessively more for the same job. Reality of the industry is they are constantly looking towards the younger generation for “new” ideas & we come from a time of TUBES – whether it’s reality or not there’s always been the pressure that our education is somehow not “modern enough” for todays technology.
That & the fact there are engineers & then there are ENGINEERS & if you haven’t established your credentials with a solid team to tell prospective employers which you are then getting hired on a cold call is VERY TOUGH.
We all face the same issues of age – it’s NOT gender.

djw1

Woman are not as reliable as men are. I was a manager for 10 years and the woman on the job seemed to call in sick a lot. Or, running late for one reason or another. Always some excuse.

CP

djw1 (comment 41), you base your opinion of an entire gender on just one woman who was unreliable? Wow. If she was late all the time why didn’t you just fire her and hire someone better? There are excellent people out there, both men and women.

Sharon

This particular study compared men and women’s compensation for the same jobs with the same levels of experience and found a difference between what men and women were paid. It wasn’t the full 20%, more like a 5% average, but the difference increased with the numbers of years of experience. So, first year graduates earned similar amounts, then older workers had pay gaps of about 10%.

Judging from the sexist comments made here, it’s no wonder that women consistently earn less than men for the same jobs with equal experience.

Dave

I wouldn’t say they make less over all. Most people look at what teachers make, and compare it to constuction or something that a man usually does. Different industry, different pay. Also employers have to put up with all the hassle that comes with women, specially if they have kids. They show up to work less, leave early/come in late more, things like that. All they have to do is say it was becuase of their kid, and the employer can’t do anything about it without being sued for it. Then the women expect everyone else to take up the slack for them, and not whine about it. Add to it that they use the insurance a lot more. So yes, they should be paid less. Even if they work in a industry with males, they often shouldn’t be. Firefighters, law enforcement, etc have had to lower standards, or make a seperate set for women to be able to pass. This puts people at risk. A risk that shouldn’t be accepted. I don’t see them getting a different test for being a lawyer, or doctor. Yet if they want to be a officer they can get by with doing almost nothing when compared to what males have to go through. So get over it, women cause more trouble then they are worth for the most part on the job. So yes, they should be paid less, if hired at all.

TMM

The Denver Post should consider removing and blocking Nature Boy’s comments at this point.

On the other hand

Hee, maybe it’s good that men make more money than women, since so many women judge men by the size of their bank account. When I was young and poor I was always glad that I’d lucked into a relationship in spite of my poverty, because every Friday night I would watch my friends lose out to the guys with the BMWs, and I would hear otherwise nice girls talking about their plan to marry a stockbroker and spend their days shopping.

Not that this makes the pay difference okay, but it does seems odd that from a social standpoint, the man is expected to make more money, but we also expect men and women to make the same amount of money. Can’t have both.

Jeff

I think that it’s a combination of institutional inertia/bias and men putting a bigger emphasis on salary than women do. Women historically worked in lower paying jobs and as they have moved into historically “male” professions, their low salaries have followed them. And there is the perception that women are willing to work for less. Men are judged primarily by how much money they make and therefore they use salary as the primary criteria for choosing a job.

Ron S

They wanted equal rights as wemon libbers, now they got equal responsibility just like a man. Now they have to earn their way just like the man!

The Boss

Sharon is right, but what she won’t admit is that the world she described is the world as it should be, as God intended it.

Men are the providers. They belong in the workplace.

Women are the nurturers. They belong at home.

Thank God for the Supreme Court. Once all abortions are outlawed, if a woman tries to get ahead of a deserving man on the career ladder, all we’ll have to do is date her, get her drunk and get her pregnant. Then she’ll have no option but to leave work and we men can assume our rightful place as worker/providers. If we keep doing it, eventually women will give up trying to be anything but the housewives they were meant to be. In the meantime, our only option is to pay them less, so that’s what we do.