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Re: Aura combat thoughts

Originally Posted by kkck

It is true that paper was that much weaker than rock due to inexperience however it was also attributed to gon not being an emitter. Gon will eventually master the technique and improve its output however it can never be as strong as his rock simply because it is not his category. In this regard, output of a hatsu is indeed affected by the nen type you have. Also, I did not get the impression that gon's paper had the same amount of power as his rock but for some reason it packed a less powerful punch. Gon did use the same amount of power as with rock to make it however what actually came out of that effort was something significantly weaker. Knuckle was able to discern merely by observing the attack that it was weaker. He did not say "it has 2000 worth of power but hits for 500" he simply said it was MUCH weaker.

Now, the reverse should also be true. If gon was an emitter he should be capable of using a very powerful paper while in turn his rock would be dramatically weaker right? He could master his reinforcement however in itself his reinforced punch would never be as strong as his paper.

Now, if ten, ren or ken in itself counts as reinforcement how would the same not apply? Now, if the same applies it provides another issue for other nen types. How would they use their own hatsus if their ken is innately weaker due to it not being part of their affinity? The energy around their body, which they need to fuel their hatsu, would be weaker than that of a reinforcement by default which simply cannot be right. This is why I just can't see ten, ren, or ken counting as reinforcement, they have to be generic skills which any type can use at 100% by default through training.

I'm not sure how you can possibly get the conclusion that paper consumes less total AP. It says flat out here Paper consumes 4000 AP for 500 damage:

The amount of AP you can consume is not tied to what school you are. If you're bad at a school, expect to get nothing useful out of your effect, but you're still charged the full amount of AP. Gon generated 500 points of damage with 4000 AP consumed for paper. It even tells you why: affinity + general inexperience with school.

If we assume all the Royals are of the same basic level, we already know Pitou's circle radius is far greater than Pufu, and Yupi sure doesn't look like he's even aware of what circle means. Looking at the distance drawn, it looks like Pitou's radius is at least 5 times bigger. However, this doesn't mean when Pufu's circle requires 1/5th the amount to maintain. If they both use circle at the same time, it has to consume whatever is considered standard for a character of their power. Killua's radius is 57cm. This doesn't mean he is only using less than 1/1000th the AP to maintain it compared to Pitou's circle that can reach up to 2KM. In the case of circle we have no idea what it's affinity needs are, but there's no way Pufu's radius is shorter than Pitou simply because he's using less AP, since he wanted to cover a larger area if it was at all possible.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Originally Posted by Tombadgerlock

Was that for me?

Anyway, if it was, Rock definitely uses 100% reinforcement. However, there is a difference in the 'quality' of reinforcement. now, it's possible that the difference in the quality of reinforcement has more to do with a stable output than a max outpout, but given that there are clear example of higher-end reinforcement ability, i doubt it.

So, i am not talking about 100000% efficiency, i am talking about 100% efficiciency with a Kou that also uses a high-quality Reinforcement.

And, yes, this High-quality reinforcement can be seen quite easily from outside, even beyond Aura Mass.

Putting aura on your fist and punch seems to be the simplest task with Reinforcement in HXH. Let's call maximum efficiency for task means you convert 1 AP of aura for 1 point of damage, delivered via your fist. You're a natural Reinforcement so no additional penalty issue to worry about.

I'm saying just because you become higher level in Reinforcement doesn't mean you can ever get past this cap of 1 AP -> 1 point of damage. You might be able to reinforce other stuff that's considered 'hard to reinforce' and still deliver the same ratio. You might be able to tack on beneficial side effects at negligible cost. But if I see you gather 5000 AP, then 5000 damage is the maximum damage you can deliver.

Adult Gon has clearly mastered all the related schools (his paper vaporzied Pitou). He can gather an unfathomable amount of AP at once, but let's say he gathered 50K AP for rock, then his damage is still limited to 50K. It can't go up to say, 500K, just because he's now a higher level at Reinforcement. If this isn't the case, there's no point to judge anything based on amount of AP gathered, because then someone can gather 200 AP (no big deal) and convert it to 2000 damage (one hit KO versus Knuckles). Yet the characters in HXH clearly look at the amount of AP gathered as an estimate for the power of the impending attack. Against a high level Reinforcement user, you might expect his 5000 AP to do carry side effects on top of damage, but his damage threshold should never exceed 5000 damage.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Originally Posted by Tombadgerlock

Was that for me?

Anyway, if it was, Rock definitely uses 100% reinforcement. However, there is a difference in the 'quality' of reinforcement. now, it's possible that the difference in the quality of reinforcement has more to do with a stable output than a max outpout, but given that there are clear example of higher-end reinforcement ability, i doubt it.

So, i am not talking about 100000% efficiency, i am talking about 100% efficiciency with a Kou that also uses a high-quality Reinforcement.

And, yes, this High-quality reinforcement can be seen quite easily from outside, even beyond Aura Mass.

That would bring us back to what is reinforcement though. Now you are separating ken from reinforcement at least given how you phrased things meaning that ken in itself is not reinforcement. Of course, this would mean we are reinforcing aura which in turn does not make much sense. You use aura to reinforce your body or objects but what is it that reinforces aura? I don't think you can have reinforced aura. To me the only logical conclusion that that "reinforcement" consists of concentrating aura on something, not just putting aura on it (shu does not concentrate aura on an object, rather you simply extend your ten over it). Take gon, his rock (which is pure and generic reinforcement) is simply his entire ken concentrated in his fist, ko which as bisk explains is a special power which is many tens of time stronger than a regular punch with nen in it.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Originally Posted by kkck

That would bring us back to what is reinforcement though. Now you are separating ken from reinforcement at least given how you phrased things meaning that ken in itself is not reinforcement. Of course, this would mean we are reinforcing aura which in turn does not make much sense. You use aura to reinforce your body or objects but what is it that reinforces aura? I don't think you can have reinforced aura. To me the only logical conclusion that that "reinforcement" consists of concentrating aura on something, not just putting aura on it (shu does not concentrate aura on an object, rather you simply extend your ten over it). Take gon, his rock (which is pure and generic reinforcement) is simply his entire ken concentrated in his fist, ko which as bisk explains is a special power which is many tens of time stronger than a regular punch with nen in it.

Reinforcement increase the physical offense and defense of a physical object.

The generic aura guard boosts both physical offense and defense, so it'd benefit from Reinforcement. A Reinforcement user's guard is more powerful compared to any other school's guard assuming all else is equal.

Circle, on the other hand, has nothing to do with physical offense and defense, and there's no evidence Reinforcement users have wider radius for the ability. Pitou is as far away from Reinforcement as you can physically be, but his circle has a wider radius than any character (minus perhaps Meryem) in HXH. It's also wider than the other two Royal guards, who presumably are of comparable level to him.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Of course reinforcements does that but that "definition" by no means gives the exact scope of it. Don't you think that killua should have been specifically told that his ren of ken would be inherently weaker than the ren or ken of an enhancer? He was never told such a thing, such a thing was never even vaguely implied.

Also, I think that second paragraph is illogical. Reinforcement does boost offense and defense however that does not mean that generic skills have to be from reinforcement. By that simple logic a conjured shield and sword would also be reinforcement since they would boost offense and defense. Lets say we have two people with the same physical capacity and nen skill. One is an enhancer and the other a conjurer. Has the manga ever said that in a direct, non hatsu, confrontation the conjurer would have an innately inferior ren or ken? It most definitely hasn't and that is a huge assumption considering ken is a must in any mid level battle and ren is something EVERY hunter must train for all their lives to become stronger.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

An observation. HXH notes that Reinforcement is the premier school for fighting in HXH. This is because hand-to-hand combat dominates the vast majority of fights in HXH and if you can Reinforce your body better than anyone else, you already start on a significant edge. This isn't some kind of universal truth. It's only true because HXH is focused on hand-to-hand combat.

If the dominant form of fighting in HXH is two guys throw aura fireballs at each other like DBZ or a Street Fighter game, Reinforcement would no longer be the premier school. You'd hear people say, "Look at that fool try to power up his own body when he should be working on throwing bigger aura fireballs!"

If the dominant form of fighting in HXH involves two guys controlling a Pokemon to beat each other up, the dominant school would be Manipulation. Now you'd hear people say "Look at that fool try to throw an aura fireball when its power is meaningless compared to controlling your Pokemon more effectively!"

I think the whole point of the election arc is to show that combat doesn't have to be hand-to-hand in nature. At least I sure don't see Pariston start punching things to death. Reinforcement would be pretty much useless in politics, for example, and it seems like Pariston's political pull is just as deadly as physical force.

Of course reinforcements does that but that "definition" by no means gives the exact scope of it. Don't you think that killua should have been specifically told that his ren of ken would be inherently weaker than the ren or ken of an enhancer? He was never told such a thing, such a thing was never even vaguely implied.

Also, I think that second paragraph is illogical. Reinforcement does boost offense and defense however that does not mean that generic skills have to be from reinforcement. By that simple logic a conjured shield and sword would also be reinforcement since they would boost offense and defense. Lets say we have two people with the same physical capacity and nen skill. One is an enhancer and the other a conjurer. Has the manga ever said that in a direct, non hatsu, confrontation the conjurer would have an innately inferior ren or ken? It most definitely hasn't and that is a huge assumption considering ken is a must in any mid level battle and ren is something EVERY hunter must train for all their lives to become stronger.

Err, the basic techniques are just that, basic. It's stuff everyone learns automatically as they get more powerful. So just because you're less effective at it doesn't mean you stop trying. Besides, due to HXH's dependence on special moves, the fact that you've an overwhelming base disadvantage is less important than you think. When's the last time you see two guys fight it out using only basic skills? Shalunark controls himself as a last ditch move. This is essentially a Manipulation using attempting to use Reinforcement (autopilot Shalunark uses only physical moves). If this move is so weak that he can't even expect to beat an equivalent Reinforcement user using no special moves, then he might as well slit his own throat and save the embarssment. You can surmise that his move is expected to at least force an equivalent user to take him seriously. Of course he can't expect to match a Reinforcement user's physical power, but it can't be so weak that a Reinforcement user can just beat his autopilot form with basic moves. Otherwise that move would be a joke.

A conjured object is no longer physical so Reinforcement will not apply to it. There is a very distinct difference between 'physical object' and 'an aura object that looks physical'. Shizuku cannot vaccum any aura object even if they appear to be normal physical object.

Let's take chains as an example. If you materialize some chains, then its power is determined by Materialize school. A Reinforcement user can pick up some real chains and swing it around for great damage, but it's hard to imagine anybody actually get defeated by such a primitive attack. A Manipulation user would be able to control the chains with great precision and other side effects, but it wouldn't be powerful. Of course, if your side effect is 'paralyze', then the chains never need to do much damage in the first place.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Fights with basic skills are quite common. Remember knuckle? His life depends on his 1 on 1 skills for the most part. If his ken was innately inferior to that of an enhancer of the same level then winning against that enhancer is virtually impossible and he was exceptionally stupid when making such a technique. In turn if ten, ren or ken are 100% effective on any kind of user then knuckle has a decent chance of pulling it off since he would actually simply have to take care of attacks which are actually reinforced. Killia uses his basic skills in every fight he is in. His electricity was not even useful until a while ago. All the royal guards used melee combat (even if puppets or weird bodies are part of the mix).

Actually I would think you can use reinforcement on an conjured object. Conjured objects are real physical objects, that much is manga fact. Of course, a conjurer would get very little benefit at very high cost from doing this though. If this was a transformed object (say that one nen bow or the numbers made by bisk) then reinforcement probably would not work on it since it would imply you can reinforce nen however with conjured objects you are talking about real physical objects. If I recall, didn't kurapica use his nen to reinforce his chain when uvo was trapped? And didn't he use reinforcement on a chain to heal himself? This works because kurapica can actually use 100% of all categories.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Let's take some Transformation users and see how they fight against Reinforcement users, or just guys who simply possess higher physical strength overall.

Hisoka's bubblegum can be defeated by anyone who is stronger than him, since it goes both ways. Is this a useless move against a physically stronger opponent? No. Kastro is a Reinforcement user, and it seems to imply his physical strength is quite bit higher than Hisoka (he chop an arm off easily). But look at where Hisoka stick the bubblegum aura at: his jaws. Just because the opponent is physically stronger doesn't mean he can pull you with his jaw muscles compared to your hand. He did the same against Gon. Hisoka sticks his bubblegum aura around places where the user is cannot apply force easily. Note that this is also why he immediately broke off the bubblegum where Razor's clone #13 caught his ball. Clone #13 clearly is physically stronger than Hisoka, so all clone #13 has to do is pull on the ball, and it'll yank Hisoka over and then he can throw the ball in his face for an easy hit.

Feitan's special ability converts stored damage to heat. We know Zanza has way higher physical defense compared to him (Feitan's Kou did no damage to Zanza), but the heat still killed her. It's clear that this heat attack bypasses physical defense. I'm guessing the balancing factor here is that since every member of the Spiders evacuated on time, including those who are injuried, it'd actually be pretty hard to use this attack to hit someone who isn't dumb and just watching you do it. Still, if he gets this move off, it can bypass the physical defense of his opponent.

Killua uses lightning. It can stun Yupi, who is a Reinforcement user more than 10 times as powerful as Killua (Yupi said it himself, and no reason to believe he's lying). Therefore lightning is not something that can be defended physically, and stun is a huge advantage. It's not like a Reinforcement user's body is indestructible. If Killua wasn't fighting two beings with incomprehensible physical durability (Yupi and Pufu), he can easily hit the weak points of an opponent, or just snap their neck, during the time they're stunned by lightning. Again, a Reinforcement user isn't going to have a stronger neck compared to a Transformer's hands. He might be able to Reinforce his neck better, but it's still a weak spot that should be easily defeated. Let's say Killua just tried to poke a Reinforcement user's eyeballs out. We can actually assume the eyeballs of a Reinforcement would be stronger than any other school, but the point is the eyeball is still so weak that it wouldn't matter you can reinforce it better than anyone else.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I don't quite see the point of your post obviously transformation users have more elaborate hatsus than enhancers-without skimping themselves on the physical part (and I doubt feitan is really a transformation user considering the armor is obviously conjured). I also have my doubts about kastro being physically stronger than hisoka.Half the stuff hisoka did (including his mutilated arms) were done to destroy the guy mentally and for the fun of it. If he had been more serious he would have not have to go that far once he figured out the clone IMO and he could have taken kastro with melee combat.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I will read the whole thread later. Damn guys you make me read more than college.

Originally Posted by kkck

The way I understood it, the secondary aptitudes are simply about which other nen type you lean towards other than the original one. Gon has reinforcement which means the nen types which suit him best to learn after that are either emission or transmutation. However, you won't have the same acquisition rate for the two of them (that is a generalization). For example, during gon's training with bisk we learned that gon is an enhancer leaning towards emission. I don't think it necessarily implies anything in particular.

I actually don't think it's about it. When He meant aptitude He did not say "school" as He was using before.
DOn't know why, but the way He explained made me think that what Gon did with Pitou is Specialization and that's his secondary school. Weir'd to explain, but I don't think it's only the one you're most suited after the first one, but a second MAIN one you get by living. At least it's what I understood.

Quote:

Also, are we sure the statue is materialized? It could as easily be emission like razon's nen puppets or the ones kurapica fought in the mansion. If it was emission then it probably also used transformation to take that shape though.

Materialization gives shape, Emission enhances distance and reach. This particularly statue doesn't seems focused on the distance but rather in the thousands hands it has. So I'm mote inclined to think that it's materialization.

Quote:

Dunno, for me 1 ap would invariably be one AP. That is the whole point of having a measuring system. Now, the issue is a thing of skill along with physical prowess. Gon's paper used the same amount of nen as his rock however since he is still not very adequate at emission he wastes a lot of power doing that. Its not that the same amount of power yields less result, its just that he is not good at making the technique efficiently in the first place.

We don't have a measuring system, Knuckles has for his ability. Let me t put it in another way...
Let's say we have two fatties. The first one eats at least 10 apples per hour. The second one eats 50 apples per hour. The hour is the same for both, but the quantity of apples eaten are different. I don't think AP is the apple, I think AP is the quantity.

The Sky is pouring
The wind is blowing
The sea looks red,
a surging sea of flames
looks like the entrance to hell
'Perfect', the captain said.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

more so, would a materialized object be able to handle the king? Materialized objects cannot exceed their real counterparts unless there are conditions to it. The prayer and the speed of it would maybe explain the speed of the statue in that regard but how do we justify it being so damn strong? It really is a "real" material that would be taking on the king and it did not quite seem like the restrictions would apply so that the statue is resistant enough for melee combat. A materialization using reinforcement on a conjured object to that extent is unlikely considering the acquisition rate. A nen made statue controlled through prayers makes much more sense. Emitters also make creatures of nen, they are just not real objects. Emission is not merely about energy beams and bullets just as reinforcement is not just about super punches (ask nobunaga or palm). Emission is about having your aura maintain power once it has been separated from the main body. IMO emission fits netero far better than materialization does considering all of this.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Originally Posted by Phantron

A

A conjured object is no longer physical so Reinforcement will not apply to it. There is a very distinct difference between 'physical object' and 'an aura object that looks physical'. Shizuku cannot vaccum any aura object even if they appear to be normal physical object.

Materialized items are so interesting because nen acutally apply for it. You can Manipulate it, you can Reinforce it, etc.

Thing is, Shizuku's inability to vaccum it is part of her ability. OTOH, Kurotopi *can* copy Materialized item- he cannot, however, copy the nen ability that those materialized items have.

Quote:

Let's take chains as an example. If you materialize some chains, then its power is determined by Materialize school. A Reinforcement user can pick up some real chains and swing it around for great damage, but it's hard to imagine anybody actually get defeated by such a primitive attack. A Manipulation user would be able to control the chains with great precision and other side effects, but it wouldn't be powerful. Of course, if your side effect is 'paralyze', then the chains never need to do much damage in the first place.

Both would be useless unless you use Shuu.

Quote:

A materialization using reinforcement on a conjured object to that extent is unlikely considering the acquisition rate.

It's even worse than that. It seems to be a materialized Statue Manipulated (if not, it wouldn't move, so no slap), Reinforced, and using emission (as it is out of Netero's body).

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I don't think reinforcement comes into the equation assuming the statue is emitted. Why would it? Netero must have a lot of nen on top of it being as polished as it is. Once the statue takes that form I don't think further reinforcement is needed. It would certainly need manipulation however that should not be a problem as emitters have an 80% acquisition for manipulation on top of netero having a very particular way of controlling the statue. Emission and manipulation fits and meets all the requirements for netero to make and control the statue. If the statue was actually reinforced we would be talking about enhancing nen with nen which is a rather awkward concept to say the least.

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Well, that statue works without touching him, so it's emission. Kurapica had the biggest issue with Judgement chain because he needs Emission to use it, and Conjurers are the worse at Emission. Manipulators can use their skills at a distance given conditions are met, but they're right besides emission and should have some skill in it. But that statue could be manipulated by praying (it moved immitating Netero, so it was manipulation and not condition).

The only option is that it was Netero's Nen emitted into the shape of a statue, not a real object. No conditions could be applyed to it for a special effect. It just emitted Netero's Nen for him, given it was a bigger body and should fare better than his old one.