Gut Reaction: Week 1 - Broncos vs Raiders

Did you think when the Broncos fell behind by a score of 23-13 early in the 4th quarter that Kyle Orton was going to lead them back?

Nah, me neither.

That's your 2011 Denver Broncos. They are a team in limbo--stuck between Orton and a guy the Broncos claim is sharing 2nd-string status with Brady Quinn (when they're not leaking how bad his mechanics are). On the horizon is the secret that John Elway keeps to himself--he's taking a quarterback with his first pick next year.

Tonight did nothing to change that. Those boos you heard weren't just Tebow cheers in disguise. They are the outcome of a fan base that knows the truth.

The truth is this: the Broncos' defense played well enough for them to win tonight. They'll continue to play well enough to win.

Can the Broncos' offense stay out of their way?

Let's get to the Positives, the Negatives, and the Who The Heck Knows?

The Positives

1. The biggest positive on the night was the electricity in the stadium. The crowd was as loud as I've heard them in years. It appeared as if the noise helped to force the Raiders into burning timeouts in the second half. Further, the crowd fed the Broncos the needed momentum to start the second half. Do not discount the power of Denver Broncos fans, whether they are sober or not!

2. I give thanks to Eric Decker. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to fill my bullet points tonight. His 90-yard punt-return touchdown was poetry--large man poetry. Have you forgotten the guy weighs 220 pounds and runs that smooth? He also made some great catches. His haul in the 4th quarter was flat awesome.

3. I liked how Mike McCoy started the game. He used four different personnel groupings on the first four plays of the game. If it weren't for some terrible execution on the edge, the Broncos probably score on their first drive. McCoy also used a lot of two-tight end sets. He was shaky during the 2nd quarter (calling a lot of outside routes when the Raiders were giving the Broncos the middle of the field), but he eventually adjusted well to what the Raiders were doing. Did you notice that the number of slants and passes over the middle increased in the 3rd quarter? There's a reason for this. McCoy did his job and made the adjustments.

4. Dennis Allen called a great game as well. Rather than go predictable, he dropped defenders into coverage. The Raiders didn't expect this, and on a few occasions showed max protection when they didn't need to. I counted.

5. David Bruton's diving play in the end zone near the end of the first half saved the Broncos four points--probably more when you consider expected points value. That single play ensured the Broncos could stick to their game plan in the second half. Later, Bruton made the critical block on Decker's touchdown return. He was also the guy responsible for the blocked punt, so perhaps it's just a wash.

6. Brodrick Bunkley and Joe Mays played the middle well for the most part tonight. The Broncos' problem was not the run in the middle part of the line; rather, they were exposed more often on the edge and through stupid penalties.

7. Brian Dawkins played with reckless abandon, and it showed. He made a lot of big hits at the line of scrimmage and saved several touchdowns with his tackles. He gave his entire body once again. He ended up with nine tackles.

8. Brandon Lloyd. Enough said.

9. Zane Beadles was the only penalty-free lineman tonight. In a game of complete crap, that's worth something.

10. The Andrew Luck / Matt Barkley / Landry Jones Countdown was 16 games and counting. Make that 15.

The Negatives

1. Kyle Orton had one of his worst first halves as a Bronco tonight. A 46.5 rating isn't pretty no matter the excuse, no matter the context. There's just no way to sugarcoat it. Outside of one scramble and a few plays to Lloyd, his throws seemed off target. Do I even need to mention the phantasm that stripped him of the ball in the 3rd quarter? Casper the Unfriendly Ghost made one hell of a play on Orton. Unfortunately and unfairly, that play probably defines Kyle Orton's time in Denver. The Broncos aren't retaining his services.

2. Penalties and mental errors kill drives. The Broncos likely score on both of their first two drives without them. Every offensive lineman on the Broncos got called for penalties in the first half outside of Zane Beadles. I'd call it a joke, but that would be an insult to Andrew Dice Clay.

3. Don't get me started on the blocked punt. One word Four words: It can't happen, dude!

4. If Josh McDaniels had managed the game the way that John Fox did tonight (two blown timeouts and subsitution errors galore), he would have taken some hits. Therefore, I'm not letting him off the hook. If the preseason and tonight's performance are any indication of his game-management skills, color me unimpressed.

5. It takes two bullet points to drive this point home. Home many times did we hear that John Fox's presence was supposed to bring more stability to the Broncos? Tonight was a whole lot of sloppy joes. The Broncos had eight penalties by half, but the Raiders had declined at least three more. John Fox should buy some hair dye. At least we wouldn't delude ourselves.

6. Stop me if you've heard this before: Knowshon Moreno has to hold on to the ball.

7. Stop me if you've heard this before: The Broncos had to do better on converting 3rd downs. It doesn't help when 21 out of your 32 2nd- and 3rd-down plays faced a distance-to-gain of 10 or more yards.

9. Stop me if you've heard this before: The Broncos need to run the ball. The Raiders played a five-man front, but is that just another excuse for poor execution?

10. The Broncos' defense crumbled on the last drive of the game, or I would have continued my stop-me-if you've-heard-this-before rant.

Who The Heck Knows?

1. Greg Papa, play-by-play announcer for the Oakland Raiders likened Al Davis to a college athletic director who used to coach the team. He may not call plays from his luxury box, but he has "a lot" of input into the roster. Al Davis doesn't call plays? Please. Next are you going to tell me Leprechauns won't kill you?

2. John Elway claims to have converted his wife, Paige, a former Raiders cheerleader, into a Broncos fan. Please. Next are you going to tell me Lesbian Vampires don't exist?

3. Kyle Orton channeled Fran Tarkenton on the Broncos' first 3rd-down conversion. If he does that more than once, I'll be scanning the heavens for meteor showers--large meteor shows.

5 Props to Matt Willis for NOT blocking in the back on Decker's punt return. Same to Chris Harris who made a great block on the same play.

6. Sure the Raiders moved the ball early, but their tendencies gave them away. They were trying to trick the Broncos using three-back sets, wishbone formations, and more motion than a strip club. That's a sure sign a team can't line it up and beat you man on man. Either that, or they lost their starting tight end and best receiver.

7. Von Miller didn't take long to introduce himself to Broncos fans. Unfortunately, he found out what happens when you are always charging up field so hard--namely, you lose your gap contain. He'll learn when to push that button, though, so I'm not too worried.

8. Brian Griese wants to know why the fans are booing in the 4th quarter. It's not all about Kyle Orton, dude. Part of it is because the Broncos were 2-of-10 on 3rd downs with 9 minutes remaining in the game. That's a Rocky Mountain Horror Picture Show.

9. That's not the rain you hear, Broncos fans. It's the sound of a million Tebow fans waiting impatiently. It makes quite a sound, don' t it?

10. The field became an ice area quickly tonight. So what? The Raiders skated around just fine. Next excuse?

As always, feel free to give us your own gut reactions in the comments below.b

Here is a positive ... the Broncos played horrible ... and lost by 3. I was amazed they still had a chance.

Posted by Tripucka on 2011-09-13 21:27:02

Thanks TJ! Love your post-game gut reactions. What a depressing game to watch. I agree with you - Elway will take a QB next year.

Posted by MW730 on 2011-09-13 17:10:53

I seem a little late to the gut reaction, but after a nights rest - didn&#8217t we just lose the home opener by 3 pts?

TJ - Come on. I can&#8217t be the only one who did think we were gonna come back from 10 down and win. We played like ass for 3 quarters and were still one 3 & out away from a shot to win it w/ 2 min left to go&#8230. Hate to see Broncos give one away with drops, bungles and penalties, but I don&#8217t get all the negativity, and no way I could hang this one on Orton or any other single player. We lost by 3 and there were at least half a dozen awful plays/players that could have changed that outcome. It was a pretty crap effort all around, but I really think we tie it up or win outright if our defense shows up for the last possession. That seems incredible given the overall performance up to that point. If anything, Orton hung in there and I for one am pretty disappointed at the fans for not doing the same.

Posted by PA_Bronco on 2011-09-13 17:09:02

Broncolorado, thanks for a great post. That&#8217s what I remember too.

Posted by oorange blood on 2011-09-13 15:39:40

DCJ&#8230Tebow wont develop behind Orton watching rubbish like that. Part of sitting behind an &#8220elite&#8221 veteran is watching nd learning good game management habits. Do you see any of these out of Orton?

just saying&#8230The loss is not totally on him&#8230lots of problems everywhere, but when your trigger man, team captain and supposed leader of the team plays that bad&#8230.well, thats a major problem.

Posted by Boydy2669 on 2011-09-13 14:59:30

@DCJ First Orton looks much better in practice than Tebow does. Second Coaches too often make decision that keep them from looking bad. If they start Tebow and he fails they look bad. If they start Orton and he fails, it&#8217s not their fault. Third there is pressure from the team itself to play Orton. Players aren&#8217t thinking long term like the fans are. (which is understandable) It&#8217s hard for them to concede that one season of a usually pretty limited career will be spent in rebuilding. Fans however have what 50 maybe 60 years of football watching so losing one season isn&#8217t as big a deal.

I&#8217m okay with starting Orton because I get all this. However if he was injured by that shot he took up the middle then we need to go with Tebow. Orton can&#8217t play well through pain. I admire his guts, but his accuracy goes to pot, and I&#8217m pretty sure that&#8217s what we were seeing at the end of the game.

Posted by Fan in Exile on 2011-09-13 14:57:53

Rough to be a fan these days.

Tougher even to have only marginally higher expectations from a 4 win season, just to sense during the 4th quarter that I need to bring my expectation level back down.

Too many things need fixing. This is not going to be an easy process. But let me say this: every team is flawed in many ways. Even the very good ones. But on good teams, great players make great plays and great coaches coach great and it spackles over the imperfections and leaves you with agood taste in your mouth.

The Broncos leave me with dragon breath. Horrible aftertaste. We don&#8217t have players who consistently make great plays or coaches who make great calls. Yet. In fact, I think Miller will get there soon.

First, there&#8217s a situation with the O-Line. Rodgers and Brees and others have eons of time to throw. Our QB does not. And there are QBs who can slide well in the pocket and create. Kyle isn&#8217t that guy. Never will be. Dilfer, in one of his clearer moments, grouped Orton and Campbell together when he spoke about guys like them needing a clean pocket to work with to be successful. He knows this from experience because he was in their boat. We&#8217ve always known that Orton does best with playaction and/or a one or two read pass play because he can be pretty accurate when things look like they do at practice. That type of QB will never elevate their team because they don&#8217t create and they don&#8217t bring anything to the table beyond running the play that the coach drew up. The team needs to elevate that type of QB. Unfortunately for Denver, the team isn&#8217t capable of making Orton better. Still. Too bad too. I was really hoping that if the running game was slightly better it might really open things up for Kyle. On that note, Dilfer adeptly stated (mid to late 4th quarter) something along the lines of &#8220This is the kind of football Kyle Orton likes to play. He&#8217s in charge, barking out orders and assignments. They&#8217re spread out and he&#8217s throwing it all over the place&#8221. Dilfer was right, that&#8217s exactly what Orton wants. Even more, Orton like to be in the shotgun. It seemed as though last night&#8217s offense devolved into our Josh McDaniels offense, didn&#8217t it? 4 or 5 wide, QB in the gun. A few quick reads and a pass play of 6 to 12 yards. If we&#8217re gonna run that offense, then let&#8217s stop hemming and hawing about Tebow being able to take snaps from center and that his dropback footwork needs work. At this point, I think that you can argue that Tebow would have been about as successful as Orton was last night. Aside from a zone-read pass play to Lloyd, a nice sideline completion to Royal, and a well thrown pass to Decker for a 1st down, I didn&#8217t see anything above average from Kyle.

Additionally, our O-Line is not creating running lanes. At one point, McGahee took a handoff to the left side last night and immediately had company in the form of white jerseys. Willis stood up and looked at his O-Linemates and just held out his hands as if to say, &#8220are you guys #@%@ing serious?&#8221 The line is not in good shape. It doesn&#8217t matter if 1998 Terrell Davis pulled up to Invesco before the game in Doc Brown&#8217s DeLorean and suited up. He wouldn&#8217t have averaged better than 3.5 yards a carry behind that line.

Denver needs to get more talent on that line. Hopefully Beadles, Walton, and Franklin develop some this year and are worth keeping as starters, but I would like to ask Mark Schlereth how many teams each of those guys, respectively, could start for in the NFL. I don&#8217t think it&#8217s a number you&#8217d like.

The defense was undoubtedly better, but tackling hasn&#8217t changed. I liked Haggan in the game. I thought Denver&#8217s defense played best when they stayed in base 4-3 and kept the backers back 4 to 6 yards. Denver&#8217s speed got them in plenty of trouble, but I agree w/ TJ that they&#8217ll figure out when to use it and when to reign it in. It&#8217ll help to get a healthy Doom back.

It&#8217s clear though that Denver needs talent at DT. We need some big, wide bodies to clog the middle. They don&#8217t have one of those guys, let alone two. Beyond the line, I thought Goodman looked bad last night but I thought Champ, Miller, Woodyard, and Hunter played well.

It&#8217s back to the drawing board for Denver today.

That loss stung, mostly because it gave me visions of the past year and a half.

Damn. Damn. Damn.

Posted by super7 on 2011-09-13 14:54:07

&#8220Gut Punch&#8221

Posted by RalphW on 2011-09-13 13:59:15

The defense overall played better, but the offense looked like the same old tired unit from last year except with LESS offensive creativity.

Orton simply cannot handle the blitz. I never blame a QB when they are being rushed by 4 DL (which occurred regularly last night) but there were a number of CB/S blitzes last night where absolutely no adjustments were made. I rememeber at one point in the first half, the Raiders blitzed the safety in the same gap 2x in a row and the Broncos had no response other than for Orton to throw it into the stands. Memo to Dilfer: it isn&#8217t always a good play by the QB to throw it away - at some point you have to make a play.

The defense was better overall I thought. The overpursuit killed them, but I think that is a reflection of poor DT play as the rest of the team is trying to cover up for the deficiency.

Posted by John Hilton on 2011-09-13 12:55:57

For everyone asking for Tebow over Orton, I have one question for you: If Tebow is so clearly superior, why In the world would the Broncos willfully start the inferior quarterback? It does happen: Shanahan went with Griese over Brister and Cutler over Plummer, and the crypt-keeper prolonged Russell&#8217s career well past sanity. But there is no one in the Broncos triumvirate who should have an investment like that in Orton. So please, give me a reasonable argument that I can understand. Otherwise I have to take it at face value that Orton is better than Tebow at this juncture.

I wish all the Tebowmaniacs would take a pill and let the Broncos give Tebow another year of development without forcing him into playing live action behind the sieve that pretends to be an offensive line.

Posted by DCJ on 2011-09-13 12:46:05

I watched the game from a bar in Vancouver and couldn&#8217t give it my full attention as I was with a client. But my impression of the offense was that there were multiple dropped catches. In the second half I saw 3 from Willis alone. I saw Royal drop a couple from memory. Am I being fair there? It sure seemed that way.

Orton was spraying his passes but his stat line was unfairly influenced by these drops.

And the O-line. What on earth happened? Nothing to run through and no time for Orton. Felt very much like 2010 again.

Posted by orangeblue_aussie on 2011-09-13 12:16:49

Two big negatives for me were Goodman and Kuper.

Goodmans tackling and positioning especially on McFaddens run after Ortons fumble. He rushed into an area where there were already defenders creating a huge space for McFadden to step into and of course he slipped when McFadden changed direction because he rushed into the area too quickly.

My issue is not with the amount of penalties Kuper gave away but why he had to give them away. He got beaten on far too many plays in one on one match ups, from your experienced interior lineman this is not good enough. He had to hold otherwise Orton&#8217s sack total would have hit double figures.

Posted by SteveUk on 2011-09-13 09:42:33

Thanks for the quick Gut Reaction TJ - I always enjoy your post game thoughts regardless of the games outcome.

This game was pure agony to watch, I honestly think that I nearly tore my Elway jersey out of frustration and hang wringing. I watched the game with a smattering of fans from other teams (Chargers, Packers, Texans, and Vikings) and I had the same feeling from all of them: &#8220It isn&#8217t Orton&#8217s fault&#8221. To a large degree, they are right, the O-line was overall unimpressive and undisciplined, especially in the penalty arena, I find that inexcusable - the excuse there is that their man beat them and they are protecting their QB/preventing a sack/tackle for a loss; regardless, this is unacceptable. So, take away the errors from the line, penalties included, and this is what remains:

1) KO needs time in the pocket, he needs enough time to 3 or 5 drop (about 1-2 seconds) and at least another 2 seconds of perfect unhindered pocket to be effective (and this is on the generous side). A defense is going to be in your face in about 2-3 seconds. Count them: one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-one-thousand. This is a reality of the NFL in its modern form.

2) This offense is going to stall in the red-zone, I realize that a big part of this burden falls on the shoulders of the QB (as it should) but when your drive consists largely of gaining yardage via defensive penalties, you cannot activate a decent running game to offset the passing threat then you aren&#8217t left with a whole lot of options or room to execute the options that you do have with a shortened field. The answer to this last year was to put Tim Tebow in for special goal-line packages and I am 100% cool with that, I don&#8217t really care what needs to be done or who needs to be in to do it as long as we are scoring in the red zone. How many fruitless trips must we take into another teams territory before something is changed? If even 1/4 of our possessions in the red zone are converted into touchdowns today then this turns into a much different game.

3) The offense let the D down, some crucial stands in our own end against a team with three quality running threats is nothing to scoff at, yes, there were missed tackles and opportunities for losses but I expected the Raiders to run the way they did. The pass defense was excellent, say what you will about the rest of the game but look at Jason Campbell&#8217s stat line, 13/22 for 105 yards and 1 TD, only 2 QB&#8217s passed for less this week (Dalton and McNabb) that tells me that the pass rush was effective to some degree and that the secondary was doing a pretty solid job (at least in that realm).

4) Special teams would get a gold star from me if it weren&#8217t for that blocked kick but that&#8217s what one missed block will do&#8230 The return by Decker was magical (great blocking all around, Decker had his head up and was eyeing the seams, his running form is clean and silky, many returners look choppy to me). Kicking was solid, obviously Prater&#8217s miss is a sore area but I&#8217m okay with missing from that distance; Colquitt had some great kicks and the punt cover team made a big play downing that ball on the 1 yard line.

5) That fumble by KO was game over for the Broncos, not faulting him though, it was a mistake but mistakes were made all over the place, Tebow zealots will piss and moan over it but that kind of thing will happen from time to time. Get over it.

6) Moreno was hot and cold to me, he shows flashes of greatness, shaking two defenders for a big gain, then turns around and shows his Mr. Hyde by dancing before hitting the line, I want to see him blast through the initial wave and then make a move, not the other way around. Not that he had a bunch of help from his O-line. I expected more from McGahee, he had a bad drop and a couple other errors that I would only expect from a younger back. I wish Orton would have dumped the ball off into the flats to either Moreno or McGahee a few more times, those guys can be dangerous when given space.

I really hate losing to the Raiders.

Posted by Coop on 2011-09-13 09:17:04

If we&#8217re in a rebuilding plan(like the front office is saying) then let&#8217s do it.Rebuilding means planning for the future.Are we planning for the future with Orton(Deberg,1983)or are we going to give the reins to Tebow(Elway,1984)?

I was there for Elways first year(and since 1965)Everyone said Elway had happy feet,couldn&#8217t set up correctly in the pocket,ran at the first sign of trouble(offensive line was terrible in 83/84) instead of looking for receivers downfield,he had no touch on the ball(threw so hard he broke receivers fingers) for screens or any short passes,threw too high,too low in the dirt,not accurate,no patience in the pocket,Deberg was better,maybe even Kubiak.He&#8217d never take us to a superbowl.

Don&#8217t believe it?Look it up because that&#8217s exactly what was being said of Elway,nationally and locally.I lived it,buying both papers daily(no internet)and all the football magazines just to read everything I could about the Broncos.

I think Elway knows exactly what he has in Tebow and Tebow will be the Broncos quarterback sooner than later.Elway was hoping that just maybe we could get through this year with Orton leading us to a playoff berth but Orton looks so much like Deberg(football wise)it&#8217s like deja-vu all over again(thanks Yogi).Doesn&#8217t this strike all of us who were there for the beginning of the Elway era as a repeat of the past?

I&#8217m not saying those of you who weren&#8217t around then don&#8217t know what they&#8217re talking about as I enjoy reading everyone&#8217s thoughts but I will say that I am positive Elway has not forgotten all the negative things that were said about him and his style of play in the beginning of his career.I also believe he sees alot of himself in Mr.Tim Tebow and is behind him 110%.

It won&#8217t be long and Tebow will be running the show,developing along with the 3 year rebuilding plan.They are giving Orton his shot but only for so long and if he doesn&#8217t take the bull by the horns then it&#8217ll be Tebows time.I figure he has 2 more games,max(the organization gave Deberg his shot but he couldn&#8217t capitalise on it.In fact he couldn&#8217t capitalise on it anywhere because he was what he was,a journeyman QB)

Did you see the gameday Orton&#8217s indecisiveness,happy feet and failing to make something out of nothing?Failing to inspire his teammates to take their game up a notch?As soon as he was touched by a defensive player he went down faster than Bryan Griese(Can you remember that?

That&#8217s where Elway(and Tebow)were/are at their best.Bronco fans became spoiled for Elway sensing trouble,extending the play and making big things happen.We all see that same ability in Tebow.Why wouldn&#8217t,as a fan,you want that adrenalin rush feeling that our QB is going to make something great happen again no matter what the situation?

It&#8217s rebuilding time fellow Bronco fans,hang tough,be supportive,give our front office a chance to implement their plan.Orange sunsets are on the horizon.

Posted by Broncolorado on 2011-09-13 08:08:01

ChrisB860,

Orton is 32-30-0. So, no, he is not a loser. Get your facts straight.

Posted by Joaquim Baeta on 2011-09-13 07:59:18

Running game was non existent. Passing game was sloppy. Receivers were inconsistent.

I am happy with the D and their progression. the final 23 points doesn&#8217t accurately portray how they actually played. Their is still work to be done to be sure, but I still think the D will finish in the top half of the league. Now we just need an offense to go along with them.

Their D-line just demolished any hope for a rushing attack. I am not smart enough to know if this is Walton and Beadles who are struggling or if it&#8217s something else but I know that any QB, whether it be Tebow, Orton, Luck, or Barkley, will struggle to make this team competent offensively without a running game. It will certainly be an interesting season. This game offensively summed up the broncos offense last year. No running game, long 3rd downs, Orton not good in clutch/red zone. The thing that made the game not a blowout like last year was some semblance of a defense.

Posted by Eddie T on 2011-09-13 07:45:45

Thanks for the quick post, TJ.

I think Chris has it right: Joe Mays played poorly&#8212and I&#8217m a Mays fan. He made a couple of nice hits but he also overran plays and struggled to fill lanes, resulting in long runs for the Raiders. I hope he improves considerably going forward.

When we were down by a field goal and driving to score, I started to get hopeful. And then&#8230the fumble. I guess Orton was, well, very Orton-like.

That said, without better O line play, I don&#8217t know how much longer Orton stays healthy. I fear whoever is playing QB and RB during the Detroit game is going to get killed.

Posted by sluggo on 2011-09-13 07:45:32

17 Raider points off turnovers out of 23 total. The first 10 were in Denver territory. The last one which came with a Denver opportunity to overcome it all and take the lead was the longest - 70 yards - and the clincher. Orton just plain dropped it.

Give credit to the Raiders front 4. They played a good game keeping our OL off balance and not in their game. Also stymied our running game. We needed to have both of these working. Even so we had 304 passing yards on a night when the ball was slippery.

Also give credit to their running game. As bm in #13 said - we need to stop a strong running game to go anywhere.

I watched the game with my Dolphin fan friend. He mentioned that had Tebow been on the field, things would have been grimer for Denver. I tend to agree with him at this point. Another year or part of a season - might be different.

However, even with the turnovers etc - our guys did not quit. I am not that disappointed. Hopefully our injuries are not serious and our guys can re-group for the Bengals.

Thanks, TJ, for a good summation.

Posted by BlackKnight on 2011-09-13 07:31:25

I wish somebody could explain to me why the Broncos&#8217 offensive philosophy the last few years has moved away from any firm reliance on the running game. Is this a timing issue with the draft, or are we trying to be like the Patriots still, or what? It seems like a strange policy, especially considering last season, but also one that has firmly been committed to. Perhaps, you will say, I&#8217m viewing the Raiders game in a vacuum - and devotion to the passing game was the only feasible try tonight, but clearly 38 yards total rushing, with KO of all people having the long rush seems too little to be happy with. And I&#8217m not one to lay it all on Orton, I think what he and the offense needed most of all this offseason was the addition of a strong running attack. But, we still have only Moreno - great guy, but almost a slot back, and Willis - better, but nevertheless an older free agent who will need to be replaced sooner rather than later. Are we just living with McDaniel&#8217s leftovers, or are the Broncos going to continue to try to center the whole offense around KO, even knowing that he is likely gone after this season? Maybe there&#8217s some expectation that O-line development will be enough to even things out a little in the coming weeks?

Posted by GEM592 on 2011-09-13 07:23:34

The thing is, this is a QB-driven league. The Trent Dilfers of the world only win the big one with all-time great defenses, and even then the chances aren&#8217t great. Kyle Orton is never going to win us a Super Bowl, no matter how the good the team around him is.

Now, I think there&#8217s something to be said about making a playoff push and gaining that valuable postseason experience, but if we have no shot at that (which it looks like we don&#8217t), then it might be time to move forward. If Tebow&#8217s not the guy, then we&#8217ll lose enough games to be in the running for a first-round QB. If he IS the guy, we&#8217ll know we can address other needs.

I don&#8217t think it&#8217s time to make that move just yet, but it&#8217s going to be that time very soon. I&#8217d give Kyle Orton the first five games (since our bye is Week 6), and if it&#8217s clear that we&#8217re not going to compete, then it HAS to be Tebow time.

Posted by Xtreme212000 on 2011-09-13 07:16:46

Probably so, Xtreme. This is a three year project, after all. If you would have asked me before the game, would you take a 23-20 loss, I might have reflected on last year and seized it. But the score wasn&#8217t really indicative of the butt whoopin their running game put on us, IMO. Until we fix that, we are not going to the playoffs.

Posted by broncosmontana on 2011-09-13 07:06:24

Orton is a losing QB. He stepped up into about 4 sacks tonight. He missed McGahee out of the backfield in the red zone and instead got sacked. The INT was a bad read and the fumble was when I knew the game was over.

Vickerson made a tremendous mental error when it seemed the Raiders were content to go into the half up 13-3.

I have to disagree on Mays playing well because he didn&#8217t in my eyes. Not just in missing the tackle by not even being blocked but just reading the play wrong on that Bush 12yard run which was the dagger but it seemed he got run over or was out of position a lot. The Bush run didn&#8217t matter anyway&#8230Orton probably would&#8217ve screwed it up if they got the ball back. I agree with Xtreme&#8230let&#8217s go with Tebow sooner rather than later and get a good idea if he can be &#8220the guy.&#8221. If he can&#8217t then Luck/Jones/Barkley await.

Posted by ChrisB860 on 2011-09-13 07:05:16

Underdog, your point about the ball slipping out of the hands thing is a good point. But the reason it really resonated with me was because pretty much all game I was noticing that there wasn&#8217t much Kyle was doing that Tebow couldn&#8217t be. Except maybe falling to the ground when some fat guy in a white jersey arm tackled him or snatched up his shoelace. Okay, maybe not those quick slants either, but I think we know that Tim could have made a lot of those short to medium plays on his own. Don&#8217t get me wrong&#8212I&#8217m weary and bored of the debate, I really am. I support Kyle because there&#8217s a horse on his helmet, and I want him to do better. But tonight, in spite of myself, I couldn&#8217t help thinking that down 10 points in the fourth quarter at home to our arch nemeses, Old Number Seven may have had to suppress his instinct to reach for that phone.

Posted by broncosmontana on 2011-09-13 07:02:37

While Orton shouldn&#8217t shoulder all the blame, he sure as shit isn&#8217t special. He doesn&#8217t win games. He&#8217s the equivalent of a B- student at a community college. When do we pull the plug on the &#8220C-mon, it wasn&#8217t all Orton&#8217s fault&#8221 era?

Posted by magster on 2011-09-13 07:02:13

I agree, montana, but I think TJ is right: John Elway will chase a QB with our first pick. Unless, or course, they throw Tebow into the fire and he plays great. Only one way to find out&#8230

Posted by Xtreme212000 on 2011-09-13 06:59:35

If we don&#8217t draft a frickin run stuffer in the next draft, I don&#8217t care who the QB is&#8230 we&#8217re going to keep losing division games.

Posted by broncosmontana on 2011-09-13 06:54:45

Also, reposting from end of previous thread: I don’t know if anyone is saying “It’s all Orton’s fault” nor is anyone here saying “Nothing is Orton’s fault.” The pick and the fumble were his fault, period. And he’s the QB so it comes with the territory that he will take the brunt of a lot of blame, fair or not. That said, I don’t think one needs to be irrational about it either. The OL was terribly erratic in the game. They did block better late in the game, when it was almost too late, but with not enough running or good run or pass blocking you’d have to ignore a good chunk of that game to place blame squarely on Orton’s shoulders. I don’t like making excuses either and offenses need to adapt but the rain clearly did the Broncos no favors tonight either. There were a lot of dropped passes, fumbles from other guys and so on. And Orton’s crucial fumble came on a great play call, too, so it was especially a bummer, but that ball slipping out of the hands thing could’ve happened to anyone during this game, including Tebow.

So Orton deserves criticism absolutely. But blame can be spread around all over with no doubt.

it sounds like Knowshon, Lloyd, Moore, and hopefully Bailey&#8217s injuries are all not serious at all. DOom&#8217s injury doesn&#8217t sound super serious either, but serious enough where he could miss the next game, which stinks.

Posted by underdog on 2011-09-13 06:54:05

If we&#8217re going to be in the running for a top QB in the 2012 draft, at what point do we see what we have in Tebow while we do it? I&#8217m not going to pile on Kyle Orton (plenty of others to handle that duty), but I think we all agree that he&#8217s not the long-term answer. And after tonight, I think we can agree that we&#8217re not winning a Super Bowl this season (already knew that, but still). So, why not throw Tebow out there and see what happens? It&#8217s probably too soon, but if things don&#8217t pick up after a few weeks, then why not?

Posted by Xtreme212000 on 2011-09-13 06:50:21

Dude 3 questions.

1) Did it seem to you that Orton was locking on to Fells amd Lloyd?

2) Were the Raiders getting most of their pressire with 4 man blitzes?

3) How the hell does man who gets paid millions to hold and throw things drop something at a crucial time?

Posted by SpaceCowboy on 2011-09-13 06:46:21

I feel awful&#8230like my friend was trying to set me up with a girl who was super hott, really nice, and hated the Raiders. He really talked her up so I was super excited to meet her. When I finally met her, she was a 21 year old overweight, single mom with twins who was raised a Charger fan.

Posted by NickCast on 2011-09-13 06:45:32

Don&#8217t know how you come up with such acute, coherent thoughts so quickly TJ!

I will repost my comments that I made at the end of the last thread, below this comment. But wanted to say that first.

Btw, on Decker&#8217s super punt return, did you hear Dilfer (who was abominable) first mention that the Broncos got away with an illegal block there? First, that&#8217s garbage, second, couldn&#8217t he at least credit Decker first before launching into that? I swear he was like an even less interesting Dan Fouts tonight.

That edge run tackling once again was a disaster for Broncos, especially late in the game when they really need stops. I&#8217m getting tired of seeing McFadden run roughshod on the Broncos every frickin&#8217 game. It&#8217s a shame because as you say above, overall Allen&#8217s playcalling on Defense was really good and they are certainly looking a lot better than last year&#8217s nightmare swiss cheese defense. But once again, inability to stop the run late killed them.

I see much to take positive away from this one, but feel very sad that those mistakes are what really did them in. I just hope the team can move on from it and play a more consistent game next week. Regardless of what some impatient fans want to dictate they do, they need to focus and continue to improve.

Posted by underdog on 2011-09-13 06:44:59

Your assessment about Elway is canny, and it makes me sad. He&#8217s going to blow several years trying to find a QB in his own image, when that is impossible.

Tebow is actually a very good likeness of Elway, when you look past the superfluous. They both have all kinds of guts and determination and are unsatisfied with loosing. C&#8217mon, John. Wise up.