Excellent looking Pizza Norma. What was the bake time and temp? You said you didn't get the crust down yet. What is it lacking? Also what brand cheese and sauce did u use?

Nate

Nate,

Thank you! My oven temperature is lower now, but I don't have my IR gun at market to be able to measure really what it is. I have the thermostat set at about 525 degrees F, or a little lower and the bake time was about 5 minutes. If you want me to, I can try to remember to take my IR gun along to market this week to really see what the deck temperature is and also time some bakes. The reasoning as to why I dialed back the temperature in my deck oven is because Joey's Pizza uses a lower bake temperature and that is the kind of crust I am trying to make.

Some of the reasons I don't think I have the crust right is because the dough balls are kind of hard to open, there is too much rim rise, or oven spring for the kind of crust I am trying to make and I would like the bottom crust to brown evenly. I know I probably won't achieve all that I would like to, because I don't have the right kind of oven, and really don't know the dough formulation, etc.

As for the cheese it is the same cheese I posted about at Reply 1720 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg255328.html#msg255328 I would really post the brand, but know most members can't purchase that cheese that comes in the almost 45 lb. blocks. I also use the same cheese on my Detroit style pizzas. The cheese is a foodservice mild cheddar. I have looked for that kind of mild cheddar for about 3 years before I finally found what I wanted. I can say that the mild cheddar is produced in Wisconsin and I would give the brand in a PM to regular members that do post about their pizzas here on the forum. As for the sauce I use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce doctored up. I can post what I add to that sauce to doctor it up. I have posted that before here on the forum.

Those pizzas look great. I'm getting hungry. Did you notice any difference in the olive oil vs. the vegetable oil?

--Tim

Tim,

Thanks! I didn't notice any difference in how the doughs opened or how the crust browned with either oil. I had wanted to taste both crusts made with both oils, but became too busy to try both. I tried the one made with olive oil.

My friend Trenton Bill called me today to tell me that he changed his recipe for his dough for his attempts on a Joey's Pizza crust. He told me he achieved a crust like Joey's Pizza in his home oven baked at 500 degrees F on quarry tiles. Bill told me the recipe he used for 3 doughs balls for 12” pizzas, but I can't convert the weights he gave me into baker's percentages to be able to try a dough ball for next Tuesday for a 17” pizza. Bill told me he used All Trumps flour. These are the weights Bill gave me.

What I found interesting is that Bill used his one dough ball in 3 hrs. to make a pizza and said the dough stretched out nicely and the crust tasted like a multiple day cold ferment. I told Bill I didn't understand how that would be possible.

This is the mixing method Trenton Bill gave me for his recipe in a Kitchen Aid mixer. Water in mixer, add sugar and yeast, then add half of the flour and mix for about 30 seconds. Next let the dough sit for 20 minutes, then put the salt on top of the flour and mix 5 more minutes.

Trenton Bill didn't steer me wrong on the Detroit style pizzas I accidentally made from his other recipe, but I sure don't know about this recipe for a crust like Joey's Pizza.

I also got a nice present from Joe Kelley of General Mills today. Joe sent me a 50 lb. bag of All Trumps flour to try out.

I did and Trenton Bill didn't give it to me, but he just called again and said that he added 1 tablespoon of flour added to the 16.2 ounces of flour in the first mix, because the dough looked too sticky. He told me he wanted to be accurate in what he told me, so that is why he called me again. He also told me he mixed on speed 2 both times. I will call Bill again and get this straightened out about the water amount.

Trenton Bill just told me he used exactly 11 ounces of water for the 3 dough balls for the 12" pizzas. Sorry for the confusion. Bill was so excited when he talked to me about the crust that he achieved that neither of us thought about the water amount.

Note: Dough is for one dough ball for a 12" pizza; thickness factor = 0.08279; no bowl residue compensation

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for doing the calculations for Trenton Bills dough. I am going to give him the link to what you posted. I think his recipe is a pretty high hydration dough and really don't think enough salt was added. The TF looks okay. Do you really think the dough would be ready in 3 hours to open a dough ball and make a pizza, unless the dough ball was left at room temperature to ferment. I really don't know what Trenton's Bill's final dough temperature was either, but will ask him if he takes a final dough temperature. I didn't think to ask Trenton Bill if he left the dough ball out at room temperature or not.

I told Trenton Bill he should use the dough calculations tools so I would have a better idea of what he is trying, but I guess he is old-fashioned and just tries doughs. Trenton Bill did say he used this dough before, but really don't know if he got the same results as he did this time. I am also not sure if he used more yeast this time or not. Bill usually uses a 2-3 day cold ferment for his doughs.

Just to let you know that I did talk to Trenton Bill this morning two times and he said he did let his dough ball sit out at room temperature (about 70-71 degrees F) to room temperature ferment. I asked him to look at the 2 other dough balls he is now cold fermenting to tell me what they looked like. He said they are rising nicely. I told Bill I don't think his recipe will work out for me because of using that amount of yeast and also the higher hydration. Bill asked me why I couldn't use that amount of yeast and the higher hydration at market. I told Bill that higher hydration doughs are harder for me to work with at market, because sometimes the dressed pizzas want to stick to the peel. I won't get into what all we discussed, but Bill and I agree to disagree on many things related to doughs, including the salt amount he used and what to use on a pizza peel as flour. Bill told me that is what he likes about me that I speak my mind and I am different than most women he has met. I asked Bill how I am going to use that amount of yeast in a dough formulation when I am now using a lot less yeast for a one day cold ferment. Bill did tell me he looked at your link to where you posted his dough formulation you converted to baker's percents and said he saw what I posted in the next reply.

I was waiting to see how Trenton Bill would respond before commenting further. Based on what Trenton Bill said, I can see how a dough with a hydration of almost 67% (plus almost 1% oil) and about 0.77% IDY would ferment quite nicely over a roughly 3 hour period at room temperature and be amenable to forming into a skin with ease. The low salt level will also allow the dough to remain fairly soft and ferment faster.

I suspect that using 1% salt might yield a finished crust that is on the bland side, especially since most people have become acclimated to high levels of salt in the food that they eat.

The easiest and quickest and best way to prove out the dough formulation is to make a single dough ball and see what you get. Since you know the thickness factor, you might use that in the expanded dough calculating tool to make a large size pizza. A 12" skin will almost always be easier to work with than say, a 16" pizza or higher.

I was waiting to see how Trenton Bill would respond before commenting further. Based on what Trenton Bill said, I can see how a dough with a hydration of almost 67% (plus almost 1% oil) and about 0.77% IDY would ferment quite nicely over a roughly 3 hour period at room temperature and be amenable to forming into a skin with ease. The low salt level will also allow the dough to remain fairly soft and ferment faster.

I suspect that using 1% salt might yield a finished crust that is on the bland side, especially since most people have become acclimated to high levels of salt in the food that they eat.

The easiest and quickest and best way to prove out the dough formulation is to make a single dough ball and see what you get. Since you know the thickness factor, you might use that in the expanded dough calculating tool to make a large size pizza. A 12" skin will almost always be easier to work with than say, a 16" pizza or higher.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that the hydration (plus the amount of oil) and the higher amount of IDY would ferment quite nicely over roughly a 3 hour period at room temperature and would also be able to form the skin with ease. Trenton Bill will be glad to hear that.

I will make a test dough using Trenton Bills recipe for this coming Tuesday since you did the calculations. Mine with be a 17” pizza though.

Bill and I are always battering back and forth in anything about pizzas, but one thing we both agree on is that we do like pizzas. Time will tell what I think of Trenton Bill's recipe.

Norma, what do you prefer to dust your peel with? I actually like wondra--there's something about it that allows the pizza to release nicely and it doesn't stick to the bottom like regular flour does. Sometimes I use a fine semolina if I'm out of the wondra. I used to use a bit of sea salt with the flour, but the OH is watching his sodium intake, so...

Norma, what do you prefer to dust your peel with? I actually like wondra--there's something about it that allows the pizza to release nicely and it doesn't stick to the bottom like regular flour does. Sometimes I use a fine semolina if I'm out of the wondra. I used to use a bit of sea salt with the flour, but the OH is watching his sodium intake, so...

Diana,

I never tried Wondra flour as a peel flour, but am glad you like it. I always use rice flour at market, unless a certain kind of pizza call for another flour. I really like rice flour as a release agent for a wooden peel. Sometimes at home I use regular flours, unless the formulation is a really high hydration dough.

I just finished devouring most of the 12in. Trenton Bill's 3hr. dough. I was very pleasantly surprised with this pizza...thank you for posting about this Norma! Of course; it doesn't bowl you over with flavor, but it was not bad at all...the crust went really well with the cheese and tomatoes. Easily better than my local slice joint...this had a nice thin crisp crunch and tender chew that lasted; unlike the slice place's that loses it's snap and turns leather like within just maybe 10-15 min. out of the oven.I had no problems stretching this out flat and spread the sauce almost to the edge. I believe the dough final weight would need to be increased a little if one wants to stretch and have a larger more pronounced cornicione. Maybe not; I'm still learning the technique.It made a great easy peazzy pizza though and makes for a nice emergency dough in my opinion. Here's the pics....oh, baked straight on a 550 stone.

I just finished devouring most of the 12in. Trenton Bill's 3hr. dough. I was very pleasantly surprised with this pizza...thank you for posting about this Norma! Of course; it doesn't bowl you over with flavor, but it was not bad at all...the crust went really well with the cheese and tomatoes. Easily better than my local slice joint...this had a nice thin crisp crunch and tender chew that lasted; unlike the slice place's that loses it's snap and turns leather like within just maybe 10-15 min. out of the oven.I had no problems stretching this out flat and spread the sauce almost to the edge. I believe the dough final weight would need to be increased a little if one wants to stretch and have a larger more pronounced cornicione. Maybe not; I'm still learning the technique.It made a great easy peazzy pizza though and makes for a nice emergency dough in my opinion. Here's the pics....oh, baked straight on a 550 stone.

Bob,

Thanks for posting about your pizza using Trenton Bill's 3 hr. dough. I am glad you liked the pizza. Do you think more salt should have been added to give more flavor to the crust? I like to hear the part about the thin crisp crunch and the tender chew that lasted. I am also glad you had no problems stretching the dough out flat. What kind of flour did you use? Your pizza looks very tasty to me and I like how your rim crust browned. I really don't think Trenton Bill and I are going for a pronounced rim, but you could up the TF if you want a more pronounced rim. Your mozzarella looks good too.

Thanks for posting about your pizza using Trenton Bill's 3 hr. dough. I am glad you liked the pizza. Do you think more salt should have been added to give more flavor to the crust? I like to hear the part about the thin crisp crunch and the tender chew that lasted. I am also glad you had no problems stretching the dough out flat. What kind of flour did you use? Your pizza looks very tasty to me and I like how your rim crust browned. I really don't think Trenton Bill and I are going for a pronounced rim, but you could up the TF if you want a more pronounced rim. Your mozzarella looks good too.

Instead of .29 t salt I used .50...half a teaspoon. I think it could probably still take a bit more if one wanted before becoming tough as this was a pretty tender dough.

I used All Trumps flour. Yes, I went pretty heavy with the cheese. It was equal parts Trader Joe's whole milk, Stella LM/PS, and Stella smoked provo.

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for telling me you did use more salt in Trenton Bill's recipe Peter figured out. I find it interesting that you think that when using Trenton Bill's recipe with All Trumps that you got a pretty tender crust. I appreciate you also posted about the cheese blend you used. Did you use Trenton Bills mixing method, or one of your own?

Thanks for telling me you did use more salt in Trenton Bill's recipe Peter figured out. I find it interesting that you think that when using Trenton Bill's recipe with All Trumps that you got a pretty tender crust. I appreciate you also posted about the cheese blend you used. Did you use Trenton Bills mixing method, or one of your own?

Norma

Norma,I forgot about Trenton Bill giving his mixing method. I mixed this the same way I always do my Chi-thin doughs...dump everything in a bowl, mix with a spoon, dump on counter and hand need. Although this dough was much more wet/sticky than Chi-thins and I don't have my technique down very good for wet doughs so this dough really only got mixed till it came together and just a couple 3 or 4 kneads on the counter. It was very cottage cheese like and this dough did not hardly rise at all after 4hrs. in a 100 degree oven.

As you can see in the pics I got great bottom browning, even some slight char. By tender I am referring to the inside of the crust...outside had thin crispness....rim was still crisp even hours later.This was a good tasting pizza and I will soon be making again...would like to try it just a bit thicker.

I never tried Wondra flour as a peel flour, but am glad you like it. I always use rice flour at market, unless a certain kind of pizza call for another flour. I really like rice flour as a release agent for a wooden peel. Sometimes at home I use regular flours, unless the formulation is a really high hydration dough.

If you search what other members use as peel flour you might see that different members have different preferences for what peel flours work for them.

Norma

Norma, I use rice flour from time to time, and I prefer it to semolina or regular flour for dusting the peel. I also like rice flour for dusting bread. Have you ever made bread with some of the flour being rice flour? It has a very nice moist crumb. Here are some pics of some bread that I made using 25% rice flour and 75%Occident.

Norma,I forgot about Trenton Bill giving his mixing method. I mixed this the same way I always do my Chi-thin doughs...dump everything in a bowl, mix with a spoon, dump on counter and hand need. Although this dough was much more wet/sticky than Chi-thins and I don't have my technique down very good for wet doughs so this dough really only got mixed till it came together and just a couple 3 or 4 kneads on the counter. It was very cottage cheese like and this dough did not hardly rise at all after 4hrs. in a 100 degree oven.

As you can see in the pics I got great bottom browning, even some slight char. By tender I am referring to the inside of the crust...outside had thin crispness....rim was still crisp even hours later.This was a good tasting pizza and I will soon be making again...would like to try it just a bit thicker.

Bob

Bob,

That's okay that you didn't use Bill's mixing methods. I just wanted to clarify what methods you used. I am glad you liked it enough to try it again. Nothing wrong with upping the TF to make it a little thicker.

Norma, I use rice flour from time to time, and I prefer it to semolina or regular flour for dusting the peel. I also like rice flour for dusting bread. Have you ever made bread with some of the flour being rice flour? It has a very nice moist crumb. Here are some pics of some bread that I made using 25% rice flour and 75%Occident.

Diana,

It is interesting to hear you also do use rice flour from time to time as a dusting flour. I never tried rice flour for dusting bread. I never made any bread with some of the flour being rice flour either. Interesting that rice flour and Occident flour give a very nice moist crumb. Your creations look delicious!

I would try to make more breads, but I play around with pizzas way too much and then I don't get to play around with breads as much as I would like to. I am the only one that would eat the bread. My daughter has been on a diet and bread and pizza are two things she can't eat.