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Author
Topic: bombs on planes? (Read 12456 times)

I won't dive into a political analysis of the middle-east situation, I do not have the competence for that. Why?Because I do not feel that the information at my disposal is reliable enough. I feel that I need more than a kneejerk reaction from politicians, the media or the usual "experts" to form an informed opinion. Time is a critical element in a world where no one seems to have any. A 90 seconds piece about the war, however well crafted, is nothing but a news pill that is far from enough to expose the complexity of a situation. The result of this is a news program which is an emotional roller coaster that induces mostly fear. And I work in TV...

I also believe in the saying that in any war the first victim is truth.

There are a few things I consider when learning about bad news as today's, and none have to do with conspiracy theories; one is that I always ask myself whom benefits from the crime? In the short term, the long term? Then I turn to things that men who lived through other conflicts have said, things that make me reflect because I think they somehow hold an element of truth. Here are a few:

When the leaders speak of peace the people know that war is comingWhen the leaders curse war,the mobilization order is already written out.

Bertolt Brecht

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Hermann Goering

The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing.

John Adams

When a long train of abuses and usurpations evinces a design to reduce the people under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

Thomas Jefferson

To me these reflexions can be applied to all sides involved, shedding a better light on a conflict we're all asked to buy in pre packaged form.

Lastly,

Non violence of the strong is infinitely braver than their violence - Gandhi

Jake the christians want me dead for being gay as well. You see them all happy because of Mathew Shepards death. Coming to NY C saying protesting the fire dept. And their opposition for equal rights for gays along with the military.I don't have much respect that needs to use lemmings to get their desired results- christians or muslims

« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 07:59:32 PM by alisenjafi »

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"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

frenchpat, read your post and I have no idea what your point is,but you described today's news as bad news. It was only bad news for the radical muslim terrorists and the states and forces that support them. Today news was excellent news for anyone interested in freedom from these monsters and freedom in general. The good guys won today, thousands of lives were saved today.

Alisenjafi this is not a religious war. This is terrorism. Terrorists are murderers and the rest of us are victims. It is so simple. You wont be killed for being gay in any christian country but you will be killed in any islamic one.

Alisen, I know of no Christinian who wants gays dead. I know of no person who wants homosexuals dead.If so they aren't Christian. Now there are Christians and non Christians who don't approve of homosexuality and homosexuals and think the whole thing is disgusting. I asked if you were better off in the US or in a muslim mid east country as a homosexual. You cant honestly say you would be better off in a muslim mid east country,can you?Speaking of protests, does anyone in the middle east work? It seems they always have a crowd of thousands for riots and protests everyday.

[Jakey, the US Armed Forces isn't a collective of the proudest and bravest in the world, it's just a massive social welfare programme. It's the device by which your government disposes of the stupid, poor and criminal minded. Cannon fodder babe. That's what they are, and I include the Marines in that. At least if Jose or Elijah has his brains spread across the thankless plains of a foreign land, he won't be waving a piece in your face at WalMart or languishing on death row.

And his parents will get a neat medal and nice new flag.

MtD[/quote]

I wasn't going to reply, because obviously you feel you are on a run, But As someone who has served in the Armed services, and did his time, I take great offense to this statement, and every American on here should also. Now, rake my ass over the coals.

I wasn't going to reply, because obviously you feel you are on a run, But As someone who has served in the Armed services, and did his time, I take great offense to this statement, and every American on here should also. Now, rake my ass over the coals.

So you're offended Ray. What of it? Being offended seems to be a favoured hobby of veterans. Why should you be any different? Australia's returned service men and women often break out the same "I served my country" spiel when they hear something they don't like as well.

One just needs to turn on the 700 club, where everything is god's revenge. When the Jews came here to escape Hitler and the christian nation of Germany and Italy's mass killing , this christian nation handed them right back to their deaths.

At the same time white church goers had no problem using African Americans as tree ornaments.I am sure there are good people who consider themselves Christians or Muslims or Hindus, but that has nothing to who they pray to.

it was the church who split South America into Portuguese and Spanish lands as they shipped slaves across the Atlantic. Also South American church goers had no problem raiding the islands of the South Pacific killing and raping and taking slaves.

It took Bono to get Christians to stop turning their backs on people with HIV and I am sure it has more with getting money and bible bashing than anything else.So who is behind anti legislation for gays to marry in America ?

"Ireland has suffered a great many tragedies in her long history. There are those we hear of every day — the "Troubles," the great Famine — Irish sorrows and issues we are all familiar with. But hidden beneath the surface, lies a tragedy just as great, just as terrible and just as unimaginable. And it is only just beginning to break through to the light of truth.It is the story of thousands of Ireland's women...judged "sinners" by the cruel Church-driven society of the 1800's through present day. Their crime? Bearing children out of wedlock...leaving abusive husbands or home situations. The punishment? A lifetime of "penitence" spent in the service of the Sisters of Charity, Mercy, Good Shepherd or other orders, performing domestic chores...harsh, thankless chores such as laundering prison uniforms, cooking, cleaning and caring for elderly nuns or their aging peers, still trapped behind the walls of Ireland's numerous convent laundries, industrial schools and the like.

They are "The Magdalenes," ironically called after Mary the Magdalene, who served her Jesus loyally and was rewarded with his forgiveness and love. No such rewards exist for these "penitents." They were told to forever hide their shame inside these walls, work under harsh, spartan conditions, driven unmercifully by the sisters and often abused by them as well. It is a story Ireland has every right to be ashamed of, which is perhaps why it has only come to light recently.

In 1993, church property held by the Sisters of Charity in Dublin which once served as a convent laundry was to be sold back to the Republic for public use. It was discovered at that time that some 133 graves existed, unmarked, in a cemetery on the convent grounds. The graves belonged to women who had worked in the service of the convent all their lives, buried without notification to possible family...unmarked, unremembered. When the discovery was made, a cry arose in the streets of Dublin...families came forth to identify and claim some of the women as their long-lost daughters, mothers, grandmothers, and sisters. Yet many remained unidentified. At the time of the 1993 discovery, a memorial was established and the remaining, unclaimed bodies were to be cremated and reinterred in the Glasnevin cemetery in Dublin. But a problem arose: an initial exhumation order was given for 133 bodies, yet at time of exhumation, another 22 bodies were discovered. No additional exhumation order was obtained or given, and the 155 bodies were cremated and moved with little fanfare.

In 2003, Irish Times journalist Joe Humphrey revealed there were no death certificates extant for many of these women (and their children, some of whom were also found buried on the High Park grounds). It is and has been illegal in many countries, including Ireland, to fail to report a death. One must wonder why—what has the Church to hide regarding these deaths? The media has been awash with the subject in Ireland. And thanks to Peter Mullan's excellent The Magdalene Sisters, the story of the women has spread worldwide.

In addition to graves gone unmarked, so too, living women go "unmarked," languishing still inside the convent walls—unclaimed by their respective families as many were given false names upon admittance, making their true identification enormously difficult. Even in death these women suffered callous, inhumane treatment and were robbed of their dignity.

This page is dedicated to the tragedy imposed upon these women by an exceedingly judgmental and harsh Church and society. My own mother spent ten years in the harsh facility at Sunday's Well, Cork.

In a Church and society that seems to hold life as sacred and cherished, I cannot help but wonder what monstrous idealism could spurn fallen women and their fallen daughters for the "crime" of becoming pregnant or of being poor, or for no reason at all? And, in its basest form, has the system perpetuated itself? As a birth mother of a relinquished daughter, now a third generation "Magdalene," I feel compelled to find out. This demeaning treatment of women — of any human — should not be tolerated nor go unpunished itself."

My mom had an aunt that was forced into catholic slave labour. You forget you are talking to someone who was raised a christian but learned to think for myself.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 09:20:10 PM by alisenjafi »

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"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

Who in the sam hell watches the 700 club. That jerk doesn't speak for me.

Matty, my sister didn't care about the medals my nephew received, nor did she care about the flag or the three spent shells stuffed in the flag. All she wanted was to have her son back. Matty, it's a social welfare program? I would like to know why my nephew was in the Marines then. He didn't need the money. He had a very good paying job.

Alisen, I know of no Christinian who wants gays dead. I know of no person who wants homosexuals dead.If so they aren't Christian. Now there are Christians and non Christians who don't approve of homosexuality and homosexuals and think the whole thing is disgusting.

Jack, didn't some of the 'Christian extremist' blame the gays and other sinners for 9/11? Don't forget, the kKK considers themselves as Christians, too. Unfortunately, the vocal minority often is louder than the silent majority.

This latest would and should not have happened if we were on track with current goals. 5 years after 9/11 and into this war with iraq, a failed policy is a failed policy. Why 'stay the course" when the administration is so off track. These Bin Laden followers should have long been dead and gone, but they are getting stronger. Try to tell a certain GW that...

I have it on good authority scottslassie that GW Bush supports Hibs FC.

R

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My partner is a flight attendant for Continental and flew back from Rome today. I'm very glad the plot was foiled. I'm not sure what I would do if he was blown up by terrorists flying over the Atlantic. It's one time when my vivid imagination is not an asset.

As far as Muslims and Christians, Bush and Blair, Iraq and Israel, democrats and republicans and all these topics that people on here get so emotional about... I'm completely apathetic. I have no control over any of that stuff and I'm not wasting neural energy thinking about it.

frenchpat, read your post and I have no idea what your point is,but you described today's news as bad news. It was only bad news for the radical muslim terrorists and the states and forces that support them. Today news was excellent news for anyone interested in freedom from these monsters and freedom in general. The good guys won today, thousands of lives were saved today.

Jack,

I guess that my point was about the nature and quality of the information that we, laypeople, have, the information upon which we form an opinion and ultimately end up using when arguing with one another.If yesterdays news is correct then thousands of lives have been saved and that is a great thing and is indeed good news.

But news are not everything and I refuse to get into a discussion when that is the only source of information.

Believing the news and lacking (momentarily?) more critical sense is what made millions of americans, europeans and others support an invasion they today wished had never happened. There was a day when when we were told that 45 minutes was all it would take for an iraki despot to wipe us off the face of this planet. What is the story now?

I believe we need to take more time to think before we start a debate that gets so heated so quickly that we risk losing friends.

Frenchpat, people supported the invasion of Iraq for many reasons,one being wmd. Almost every lead Democrat(including clinton and kerry) as well as the entire UN was saying as late as 2000 that Iraq had WMD and had to be stopped. Did they have bad info? Was the WMD shipped off to syria or iran? I have no idea. Personally, I was for the war on Iraq but against the attempts to shape its government.Iraq was artificially constructed by outside forces and should probably be allowed to split up into separate countries. We didn't fight to keep all of Russia together,why here?

If you are gonna view every terrorist plot break -up as some type of conspiracy so Bush and Blair can stay in power ,because if true the reality of situation means the war on terror is successful and strengthens Bush and Blair, you will find conspiracy behind every moment in history.

David, I do remember one of the TV God Guys saying that homosexuals were responsible for 911. I don't remember him wanting to kill all homosexuals. I am not denying the fact that there are many people who don't like gays or their lifestyle and some of those of people happen to be Christians. These people are a pain the ass. Have some gays been killed by people who say they are Christian because they were gay? yeah. If you would have come out as gay where I went to high school inthe 60s you probably wouldn't have lived through the week, but a nephew of mine who is 18 came out as gay at the same school this past year and it was no big deal. Things are changing.I also remember Clinton blaming the OKC attack on conservatives. As we know now McNichols spent two months in the Phillipines with Ramsi Yousef,the bomb maker, prior to the OKC attacks. The terror plot broken up yesterday was planning on using the type of bombs that Ramsi had designed in his plot to blow up 12 Asian Jets in the early 90s. Ramsi is also believed to be the source of the info in mid 90s that there were muslims taking flying lessons in the US. Of course the CIA was not allowed to share this info with the FBI because of the wall between cia and fbi.

Just saying the christians ain't so christian - I won't defend a group who want me dead because of sexual orientation ( but then again they want everyone dead because they want rapture and not the Blondie song) follow the thread it isn't that complicated

Who in the sam hell watches the 700 club. That jerk doesn't speak for me.

SO who is watching them and giving them money to have a tv station- just because they don't speak for you doesn't mean there aren't mindless idiots who buy into that shit

How about the the British gov't ,(Ireland, Africa, America, Asia, Australia) the American gov't ( Hawaii, Caribean,Chile)- the French gov't (North Africa)-Italy , African gov'ts China's take over of Tibet..Japan in China... lets face it we need a gay country! Where you are only attacked because of bad sense of style!Long live the Cathars

NEWS FLASH- FROM HOMELAND SECURITY_ ALL MONEY MEANT FOR NY Security WILL NOW GO TO THE PEPSI CO PLANT IN TOPEKA ! ALL MONEY FOR OTHER MAJOR CITIES ARE NOW DEVERTED INTO DEFENSE OF OTHER BEVERAGE COMPANIES IN THE MIDWESTJohnny

« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 07:26:33 AM by alisenjafi »

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"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

Frenchpat, people supported the invasion of Iraq for many reasons,one being wmd. Almost every lead Democrat(including clinton and kerry) as well as the entire UN was saying as late as 2000 that Iraq had WMD and had to be stopped. Did they have bad info? Was the WMD shipped off to syria or iran? I have no idea. Personally, I was for the war on Iraq but against the attempts to shape its government.Iraq was artificially constructed by outside forces and should probably be allowed to split up into separate countries. We didn't fight to keep all of Russia together,why here?

If you are gonna view every terrorist plot break -up as some type of conspiracy so Bush and Blair can stay in power ,because if true the reality of situation means the war on terror is successful and strengthens Bush and Blair, you will find conspiracy behind every moment in history.

Jack,

I'll return the question to you: did YOU have bad info? I would expect any RESPONSIBLE ADULT HUMAN BEING who is about to support the slaugther and foly that ANY war is, to seriously ask himself what his own motivations are and what information those are based upon.

"Iraq was artificially constructed by outside forces and should probably be allowed to split up into separate countries."

Well, this could be said for a country you know well: yours! Besides, since you say "allowed", you imply no outside intervention for the possible split-up; this is not what I see happening after more than 3 years of chaos, destruction and the needless loss of tens of thousands of human lives. Also, ever heard about "self-determination"?

Your statement about Russia (I suppose you mean the USSR) leaves me gobsmacked: did the west, primarily led by the US, not do everything in its power for over 50 years to destroy it (assuming that the USSR wanted to destroy them)? The goal was attained. Trouble is the west found itself without enemy... and that is a big problem for a bunch of countries that are rich and top the charts of the biggest arms sales (USA, France, UK, China, Brazil, Israel...oh and Russia of course).

A reminder: Peace is not the absence of war

Two things about your last statement:

1) Any time someone stops an enterprise who's goal it is to destroy human life, it is a good thing for everyone.2) Although I do believe that all politicians enjoy power I do not think that there is any clear conspiration here. For all I know even they might be very confused, not least by the unplanned consequences of their acts (reread the many changes over time of "reasons" for invading the country).

And as far as the power politicains have, I never lose sight that we allow them to have it. And if we do that it means that we have a responsibility in how they act.Check Estienne de La Boétie's essay, "Discourse on voluntary Servitude" written in 1548.

Frenchpat,seems we have a failure to communicate. The US was not formed by outside governments or agencies as Iraq was.I don't understand your comments on USSR(now Russia). We may have had bad info on Iraq, but so did everyone else. Everyone thought they had WMD till Bush said he might invade. As I said I was for invading Iraq and taking out Saddam, but against hanging around to help shape their government. Instead of invading immediately we spent almost a year cowtowing to the crooks at the UN(who were all taking payoff from Saddam in the food for oil scheme) and letting Colin Powell play diplomat. That delay enabled Saddam to hide or transfer out of country WMD(if he had it and the whole world said he had it up till 2001) and prepare a defense reminiscent of Muhammad Ali's "rope a dope".Seldom do wars go as planned but because of our lack of guts to completely destroy our enemies in Iraq we are over two years late for the necessary invasion(or carpet bombing) of Iran and Syria.

Tony blair and George bush are in such deep shit for their Iraq mess that they frankly need us to be in panic mode for their own political survival. I am not saying there is no threat, merely suggesting that they require mass hysteria to keep their approval ratings from falling down the toilet in an election year.

Think about it, you get to the airport and are told "Yes sir, we think you might have highly explosive liquids in your possession that could kill thousands of Americans and blow up an entire airplane.

So please pour the liquid out in front of these hundreds of passengers, including that small baby just three feet behind you, and into this large bucket mixed with all sorts of other unknown and possibly explosive (and reactive) liquids, including alcohol, peroxide, acids, and more. Yeah, that would be the smart way to dispose of suspected terrorist explosives."WTF?

WTF? Its because we dont have the stomach to profile. We have become more concerned about what people think about us than operating our security in an efficient and intelligent manner. If we were only searching Muslims and middle east types as we should be doing, the libs and media would have a hissy fit, so to avoid this we search grandpa and grandpa and waste billions. And the fucking tsa swiped my brand new Tag in the Ft.Myers airport. Its a real mess.

Geo is deep shit? Who cares, he isn't running again and oppositions only solution is to appease and mollycoddle.

WTF? Its because we dont have the stomach to profile. We have become more concerned about what people think about us than operating our security in an efficient and intelligent manner. If we were only searching Muslims and middle east types as we should be doing, the libs and media would have a hissy fit, so to avoid this we search grandpa and grandpa and waste billions. And the fucking tsa swiped my brand new Tag in the Ft.Myers airport. Its a real mess.

Geo is deep shit? Who cares, he isn't running again and oppositions only solution is to appease and mollycoddle.

Okay Jake, we get it. Everyone knows your position...and quite frankly it has become tedious and redundant. I for one have lost any interest in debating you, and as you can see by the lack of interest in your posts, so has everyone else. So today I issue what I call my Jake Manifesto..."In the interest of my sanity I will no longer read or respond to a Jake posting."

WTF? Its because we dont have the stomach to profile. We have become more concerned about what people think about us than operating our security in an efficient and intelligent manner. If we were only searching Muslims and middle east types as we should be doing, the libs and media would have a hissy fit, so to avoid this we search grandpa and grandpa and waste billions. And the fucking tsa swiped my brand new Tag in the Ft.Myers airport. Its a real mess.

Geo is deep shit? Who cares, he isn't running again and oppositions only solution is to appease and mollycoddle.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Frenchpat,seems we have a failure to communicate. The US was not formed by outside governments or agencies as Iraq was.I don't understand your comments on USSR(now Russia). We may have had bad info on Iraq, but so did everyone else. Everyone thought they had WMD till Bush said he might invade. As I said I was for invading Iraq and taking out Saddam, but against hanging around to help shape their government. Instead of invading immediately we spent almost a year cowtowing to the crooks at the UN(who were all taking payoff from Saddam in the food for oil scheme) and letting Colin Powell play diplomat. That delay enabled Saddam to hide or transfer out of country WMD(if he had it and the whole world said he had it up till 2001) and prepare a defense reminiscent of Muhammad Ali's "rope a dope".Seldom do wars go as planned but because of our lack of guts to completely destroy our enemies in Iraq we are over two years late for the necessary invasion(or carpet bombing) of Iran and Syria.

Jack,

the world I live in seems to be much more complex than the one you describe. My world and life are not defined by the binary influence of GOOD or EVIL. My world, however happy or sad, sounds more like a symphony than a two-tone siren.

A failure to communicate? My english is not perfect but I don't think it is the issue and I don't wish to have a reasonable debate with you anymore for this seems impossible.

Hal, now you know how I feel. But I did shoot 74 today so I am very happy and hope all the mongrels in the middle east blow each other up. Its all they are good at. My first dog was a fucking dachshund. We named him after our rich neighbors chauffeur. I hated that dog but loved the chauffeur.

Frenchpat, I am happy that you and your world are so complex. I told my wife if she ever made me go to the symphony again I would divorce her and I wont wear diapers.I was not commenting on your English with "failure to communicate", and you proved we do have a failure here. Your English seems fine to me. Its a famous line from the movie "cool hand luke". I apologize if you misunderstood me(which would just be another illustration of our failure to communicate). Do you live in France? Where?

I think my lexapro is backfiring. All this war and terror crap is really stressing me out and causing me to screw up at my job and lose much money. Time for some Nyquil on the rocks.