And as far as I know, there isn't a prohibition on romance between Starfleet officers, an instance that comes to mind is Balance of Terror, where officer Angela was engaged to her commanding officer Tomlinson. There are also numerous romantic relationships between other main characters like Jadzia and Worf, Torres and Paris, Riker and Troi, etc.

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How dare you use examples from the Prime timeline to shoot down complaints people have about the Abrams films!

Which is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. And if you ever happen to write a nuTrek novel, I won't be buying it. You're an excellent author and I enjoy your work, but only to the point where you're writing in a universe I find enjoyable.

(and for the people who will promptly yell at me for "threatening" to not buy Greg Cox's books... don't bother. It's not a threat and not a tantrum - just a comment)

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Thanks for the kind words! And don't worry. I hardly expect everyone to buy all of my books, regardless of the series or subject matter. (I've learned from hard experience that you cannot give XENA books away at a TREK convention--and vise versa.) And I don't expect DS9 fans to buy my TOS books just because my name is on it.There are lots of different flavors of Trek these days and not everybody is going to like Rocky Road.

Getting back to Spock and Uhura, I don't recall them hanging all over each other and playing kissyface on the bridge. There was one tender kiss, when Spock was "emotionally compromised," and that was it as far as PDAs are concerned. It's not like they're making out in the rec room or something.

And as far as I know, there isn't a prohibition on romance between Starfleet officers, an instance that comes to mind is Balance of Terror, where officer Angela was engaged to her commanding officer Tomlinson. There are also numerous romantic relationships between other main characters like Jadzia and Worf, Torres and Paris, Riker and Troi, etc.

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How dare you use examples from the Prime timeline to shoot down complaints people have about the Abrams films!

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Thank you, I was actually surprised at how many examples they were in the Prime timeline. The TOS "main" crew seems to be the exception, actually, but even their subordinates were not above open romance.

Getting back to Spock and Uhura, I don't recall them hanging all over each other and playing kissyface on the bridge. There was one tender kiss, when Spock was "emotionally compromised," and that was it as far as PDAs are concerned. It's not like they're making out in the rec room or something.

"Geez, get a room!"

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There was one more instance, at the Transporter room, but I thought it appropriate since it was essentially a suicide mission by Spock. They didn't show PDA as far as I remember in STiD, so it's not like it happens every other scene.

Well, King Daniel, I could produce another thousand-word essay, but frankly your meme tells the whole story (at least from my perspective) in a nutshell.

Though I will, of course (since I can't be shut up) try to summarize: Had no one ever seen Star Trek Into Darkness, but only this meme had been revealed instead, it would tell the story of:

1) a main character who requires some personal resemblance to the character of the past in order to tap into existing viewer interest and loyalty;
2) who is restricted from being exactly the same character as the past by means of a revised backstory, in order to enable some sense of artistic freedom;
3) who ends up being changed by the rewritten events of his past so drastically as to make him completely distinguished and separated from his former persona; and therefore in order to replenish a lost sense of continuity:
4) must channel or echo events that already happened in past stories prior to the rewriting of those events, in order to forestall viewer interest in the character from waning.

As a result, the new character is more bound and restrained than the old one. No wonder he's in pain.

Getting back to Spock and Uhura, I don't recall them hanging all over each other and playing kissyface on the bridge. There was one tender kiss, when Spock was "emotionally compromised," and that was it as far as PDAs are concerned. It's not like they're making out in the rec room or something.

"Geez, get a room!"

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There was one more instance, at the Transporter room, but I thought it appropriate since it was essentially a suicide mission by Spock. They didn't show PDA as far as I remember in STiD, so it's not like it happens every other scene.

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The transporter room kiss was actually the incident I was thinking of. The turbolift scene was a private moment between Spock and Uhura and so wasn't exactly a public display of affection. No one else was watching.

And, given that he's a half-human involved with a human, and raised by a human mother to boot, it seems plausible to me that this version of Spock would be willing to bend a little when it came to private displays of affection. It would not be logical to expect Uhura to act like a Vulcan at all times.

You get involved with a human, you gotta expect to meet her halfway sometimes.

Getting back to Spock and Uhura, I don't recall them hanging all over each other and playing kissyface on the bridge. There was one tender kiss, when Spock was "emotionally compromised," and that was it as far as PDAs are concerned. It's not like they're making out in the rec room or something.

"Geez, get a room!"

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There was one more instance, at the Transporter room, but I thought it appropriate since it was essentially a suicide mission by Spock. They didn't show PDA as far as I remember in STiD, so it's not like it happens every other scene.

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The transporter room kiss was actually the incident I was thinking of. The turbolift scene was a private moment between Spock and Uhura and so wasn't exactly a public display of affection. No one else was watching.

And, given that he's a half-human involved with a human, and raised by a human mother to boot, it seems plausible to me that this version of Spock would be willing to bend a little when it came to private displays of affection. It would not be logical to expect Uhura to act like a Vulcan at all times.

You get involved with a human, you gotta expect to meet her halfway sometimes.

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That also came almost immediately after Sarek admitted that he married Amanda because he loved her. Not for any diplomatic or (Vulcan) logical reason but simply because he loved her. Spock may have simply taken more than one cue from his parents.

If Kirk was in the Delta or Gamma Quadrant, dealing with the Borg or Dominion, or started going transwarp speeds it would be confusing for all.

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How so ?

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You explain that without loosing the remaining old fans and confusing the new ones.

Don't get me wrong, I like NuTrek, "In to Darkness" too, but back then, show like TOS and TNG opened viewers minds, braking racial barriers, broadening their imagination, with a moral base (and it got a bit preachy at times).

Blatant statements like, while the Prime Timeline is still making money in books and games, and after posts in this thread proved reboots don't always replace their predecessors (2003's "Hulk" was a reboot of the character which was discarded for 2008's "Incredible Hulk" which was more of a homage to the original TV series, and the same can be said about the original Spiderman trilogy (mutant slingers) and the Amazing Spiderman (web shooters), doesn't make sense.

Anyone who thinks that for the rest of eternity they're going to do nothing but Kirk reboots, and that 40 some years down the line, a Next Gen reboot, remake, or new continuity isn't even a possibility, is sad.

If you believe a Next Gen reboot is possible, they're going to pull from that so called 'dead' timeline as much as NuKirk being from Iowa and NuSpock being half Vulcan.

Nerys Myk lost me with his 'Reboots have been going on since stories first existed, back before they were called reboots'

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Whats so confusing about that? People have been rewriting stories and creating new continuities for old characters since humans began telling stories. That's only been called a "reboot" in that last few decades.

Okay... first of all, it's not just the FACT that realSpock and realUhura never went beyond mild flirtation - it's a FACT that Vulcan society in general didn't go in for public displays of affection such as those done by nuSpock and nuUhura. I find it very hard to believe that the Abramsverse Vulcans would be into it, either. Spock grew up in a "don't show your emotions in public and preferably not in private, either" culture - so why is he acting not only un-Vulcan, but also unprofessionally as a Starfleet officer? Saying "it's a reboot" just doesn't excuse it. That's not Spock. It's an actor we're expected to think is Spock and react to as though he's Spock, but that character is NOT authentically Spock.

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You mean their ONE public kiss on the transporter pad that came AFTER Spock's breakdown and admission to his father that he has emotions and cannot control them?

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By Vulcan standards (not Sarek's standards or Amanda's or Spock's, Vulcan in general) that IS a very noticeable, unacceptable breach of decorum and manners. Any regular Vulcan would be correct in wondering if nuSpock were mentally ill, for engaging in such behavior.

Although he got there a very different way, Old Spock basically went though the same thing in TMP, realizing what folly an emotionless and purely logical life truly is. We then got a Spock who smiled a teeny bit in WoK, who wasn't afraid to tell Kirk what he meant to him. A Spock who laughed at the end of STIV and told Starfleet to "Go to hell" at the end of STVI.

What you see as "characterization rape," I see as personal growth.

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RealSpock's personal growth happened over many decades (of the character's life, as well as the series). NuSpock basically went from one extreme to the other inside of 10 minutes or so (or however long it was; the in-story timespan of events on the ship wasn't anywhere near long enough for me to believe such "growth").

My point is that if (for example) I'm willing to do research to understand the current plotline and character interactions on a damn soap opera

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So don't assume everybody will do that like you or me. Fans sho started watching Trek in 2009 might not even be interested in the old timeline. Imagine their confusion when Vulcan is back.

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Nobody's forcing them to be interested in the old timeline. I run across lots of Doctor Who fans who have absolutely zero interest in anything that happened before Christopher Eccleston. They choose to ignore (and sometimes dismiss unseen) what happened previously - some 40 years' worth of wonderful stories. If they're "confused", it's their own fault if they stay that way due to refusing to get "unconfused" (by consulting other fans and resources that could explain things to them) - and this also applies to the nuTrek fans who prefer to ignore what came before.

And as far as I know, there isn't a prohibition on romance between Starfleet officers, an instance that comes to mind is Balance of Terror, where officer Angela was engaged to her commanding officer Tomlinson. There are also numerous romantic relationships between other main characters like Jadzia and Worf, Torres and Paris, Riker and Troi, etc.

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Romance isn't prohibited. But there are regulations and social conventions about how that romance is expressed. Torres and Paris were reprimanded for their blatant PDAs in Voyager. They weren't told they couldn't have a relationship. They were told to keep it off-duty and in the privacy of their quarters or the holodeck.

Which is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. And if you ever happen to write a nuTrek novel, I won't be buying it. You're an excellent author and I enjoy your work, but only to the point where you're writing in a universe I find enjoyable.

(and for the people who will promptly yell at me for "threatening" to not buy Greg Cox's books... don't bother. It's not a threat and not a tantrum - just a comment)

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Thanks for the kind words! And don't worry. I hardly expect everyone to buy all of my books, regardless of the series or subject matter. (I've learned from hard experience that you cannot give XENA books away at a TREK convention--and vise versa.) And I don't expect DS9 fans to buy my TOS books just because my name is on it.There are lots of different flavors of Trek these days and not everybody is going to like Rocky Road.

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I've only ever gone to two fan events that were limited to one show - Star Trek in 1978 (an afternoon event with George Takei, in Calgary) and Doctor Who in the late '80s, at the Spokane PBS station when Sylvester McCoy was touring across the US after having taken over the role from Colin Baker. The rest of the events I've been to have been conventions where the guests have been authors, artists, editors, university professors, people from the local planetarium, and even Phil Currie, who runs the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Paleontology in Drumheller. No actors. These conventions had a wonderfully eclectic mix of people and guests, with many common interests. You could indeed have "given away" a Xena book while also selling your ST books. There are some extremely enthusiastic Xena fans in this area, even this many years after the show ended; one friend of mine started writing a fanfic crossover of Xena & Deep Space Nine!

Okay... first of all, it's not just the FACT that realSpock and realUhura never went beyond mild flirtation - it's a FACT that Vulcan society in general didn't go in for public displays of affection such as those done by nuSpock and nuUhura. I find it very hard to believe that the Abramsverse Vulcans would be into it, either. Spock grew up in a "don't show your emotions in public and preferably not in private, either" culture - so why is he acting not only un-Vulcan, but also unprofessionally as a Starfleet officer? Saying "it's a reboot" just doesn't excuse it. That's not Spock. It's an actor we're expected to think is Spock and react to as though he's Spock, but that character is NOT authentically Spock.

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You mean their ONE public kiss on the transporter pad that came AFTER Spock's breakdown and admission to his father that he has emotions and cannot control them?

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By Vulcan standards (not Sarek's standards or Amanda's or Spock's, Vulcan in general) that IS a very noticeable, unacceptable breach of decorum and manners. Any regular Vulcan would be correct in wondering if nuSpock were mentally ill, for engaging in such behavior.

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No "normal Vulcans" were present. The Spock in this timeframe is the same one who smiled after touching a vibrating leaf and shouts "the women!!!!" when two female crewmates disappear. I don't think Spock at this point in his lives was overly bothered by Vulcan "decorum and manners". Even Spock later in his life in the PrimeUniverse was known to break decorum. Some of his best scenes are when he does. He does the strict Vulcan thing to get on humans' nerves.

I've only ever gone to two fan events that were limited to one show - Star Trek in 1978 (an afternoon event with George Takei, in Calgary) and Doctor Who in the late '80s, at the Spokane PBS station when Sylvester McCoy was touring across the US after having taken over the role from Colin Baker. The rest of the events I've been to have been conventions where the guests have been authors, artists, editors, university professors, people from the local planetarium, and even Phil Currie, who runs the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Paleontology in Drumheller. No actors. These conventions had a wonderfully eclectic mix of people and guests, with many common interests. You could indeed have "given away" a Xena book while also selling your ST books. There are some extremely enthusiastic Xena fans in this area, even this many years after the show ended; one friend of mine started writing a fanfic crossover of Xena & Deep Space Nine!

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Oh, most cons are not so specialized, I agree. I was mostly thinking of some Creation cons I attended back in the day. At Shore Leave a few weeks back, I was signing everything from Star Trek to Warehouse 13 to Iron Man and beyond.

As for Vulcan dating etiquette, it's worth remembering that Spock in not a typical Vulcan engaged in a typical Vulcan relationship. If Spock wanted to adhere to strictly Vulcan standards, he would have just entered the Vulcan Science Academy as expected, instead of joining Starfleet. He has a lot of Amanda in him, maybe even more so than in the original iteration. And I imagine that his relationship with Uhura would be even more "human" than his parents' marriage, since Sarek was a full Vulcan raised entirely by Vulcans and less likely to overcome his upbringing.

NuSpock may even feel that he is honoring the memory of his martyred mother by allowing himself to be more "human" with Uhura this time around . . ..

By Vulcan standards (not Sarek's standards or Amanda's or Spock's, Vulcan in general) that IS a very noticeable unacceptable breach of decorum and manners. Any regular Vulcan would be correct in wondering if nuSpock were mentally ill, for engaging in such behavior.

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And this would differ from all of the times Spock showed emotion in TOS ("JIM!!!!" etc) and the movies how, exactly?

RealSpock's personal growth happened over many decades (of the character's life, as well as the series). NuSpock basically went from one extreme to the other inside of 10 minutes or so (or however long it was; the in-story timespan of events on the ship wasn't anywhere near long enough for me to believe such "growth").

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Well, it was enough for me so each to their own. Remember that TOS and TMP were all essentially stand-alone stories, as is STXI. It's not like there was a long term TOS - TMP plan for Spock's emotional awakening which gradually unfolded.

King Daniel and Greg, I think I understand your points, and correct me if I'm misstating them: You're happy for a character who appears to have overcome a severe handicap, and now he can move on and be a more well-rounded person. He no longer has to be defined by a disability.

I suppose, speaking on behalf of actual people who have ever had even a slight disability and then overcame it, that does make some sense.

But let's be fair: Here's a character in whom some of us have invested nearly a half-century of interest, and one of the reasons has been being privileged to watch him overcome, by fits and starts, a personal psychological disability. He was incapable of expressing romantic love. Oh, he's certainly capable of emotion at some level, and his repression of emotion is a personal, daily choice rather than some missing circuitry. He certainly wanted to express romantic love, as he directly implied in his apology to Christine Chapel.

But even when slightly intoxicated (or the metaphysical equivalent), he was reduced to a babbling puddle of tears. When heavily intoxicated, sure, Jill Ireland became the love of his live in three seconds. Yet the side of his character that was revealed in that episode completely and successfully repressed the part of Spock that was devoted to his duty and that was honorable as a man, in the same way that his "honor-side" had successfully repressed his sexual urges. Only through being humiliated by Kirk did he recover his memory of how to repress the feeling of being humiliated, and his honorable side return.

Now, over the years, various incidents (among them, death and rebirth) gave the man opportunities to reconcile his two halves. And it was good to watch that process happen. We appreciated the "personal growth," to borrow Daniel's phrase.

For a rewritten version of the story to rewind history and say all that personal trauma and trial and reconciliation and doubt and grief were unnecessary, and the right woman's kiss cleared everything up and things are now hunky-dory, is to devalue the previous storyline. It doesn't eliminate it from our history, but it does sorta say, "Ah, well, who cares?"

Put another way: At one level, hypothetically, it might be interesting to have rebooted a character named "Ironside" as a detective who, after being shot, underwent a life-saving operation, overcame paralysis, and now stands upright and jogs every morning. We'd be happy for him if we got to see the recovery process -- if someone were to tell that story and make it interesting and personal. But to presume the story is already told is to cheat the viewer, as well as to effectively declare the recovery process itself (the "personal growth") unimportant.

Romance isn't prohibited. But there are regulations and social conventions about how that romance is expressed. Torres and Paris were reprimanded for their blatant PDAs in Voyager. They weren't told they couldn't have a relationship. They were told to keep it off-duty and in the privacy of their quarters or the holodeck.

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Court Martial said:

SHAW: Do you think it would cause a complete breakdown of discipline if a lowly lieutenant kissed a Starship Captain on the bridge of his ship?
KIRK: Let's try. (a gentle but lingering kiss) See? No change. Discipline goes on.
SHAW: And so must the Enterprise. Goodbye, Jim.

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If it's good enough for TOS, then it's good enough for the Abramsverse.

For a rewritten version of the story to rewind history and say all that personal trauma and trial and reconciliation and doubt and grief were unnecessary, and the right woman's kiss cleared everything up and things are now hunky-dory, is to devalue the previous storyline. It doesn't eliminate it from our history, but it does sorta say, "Ah, well, who cares?"

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I don't think the Abramsverse films have said that at all. This version of Spock has different doubts and concerns and maybe be just a bit unhinged after the destruction of his world and death of his mother. Plus, you have to figure in that he isn't as old as his TOS series counterpart.

There's more than enough room to get Spock to his TOS "self" or to take him in a completely new direction. I'm enjoying the ride.