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I've owned 2 Yamahas, tested some Korgs and they never had this issue. It might be my limited experience with digital pianos, but this its the first time I came across this

But with the 350, on the same layered voice setting, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, as long as the sustain is pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.

@Casio PX 350,

Sorry to hear of your issue, however, I don't particularly like having to be the bearer of additional bad news:

Sounds like you should report this sustain issue directly to Casio, as it is another instance of a problem that may have been overlooked and not addressed at R&D, before the pianos were released.

I had both a Casio PX-130 / Casio AP-620 that had a sustain pedal resonance issue where the sustain pedal (and, "sounds") would stick at various random times, and, that is one reason I switched my ownership to a Kawai EP3 / Kawai CA95, instead. This issue (to my knowledge) has still not been addressed or fixed with the three Casio's I had previously owned.

It's just my opinion, but I would stay away from (or, not purchase) a Casio until I knew for sure that these issues have been resolved. There are plenty of other choices to consider when buying a digital for under $1,000. And, you will do better to spend more than $1K to get a really nice piano.

That's kinda like when I found out I could buy slightly shrunken acoustic guitars -- though it affects the sound a little due to shorter strings.

Yes, exactly. Especially the 640mm string length is becoming increasingly popular standard. But there are even smaller sizes available.

And nobody can really measure the potential popularity of 7/8 or 15/16 piano key sizes. Because there are no such digital pianos available at affordable prices, only $20,000 keyboards for $100,000 grands, and $10,000 uprights, as far as I know.

But Kawai James keeps insisting that there would not be significant enough demand for the major digital piano manufacturers to get involved. I think he is completely wrong.80% of women and 20% of men are in the category with clearly hands too small for the current discriminatory piano key size.But even though I myself, according to Steinbuhler scale, have above average hand (over 24 cm, or over 9.5") I still desperately need that reduced size keyboard!

So I would not be surprised if today's "normal" size becomes history.

But there is a catch 22, unfortunately, that needs to be broken.

The piano manufacturers don't want to make pianos for everybody, they continue making them only for the small market of freaks with huge hands They are not interested in making money, it seems.

Kawai James, remember, you (I mean, the evil piano manufacturers) are denying the possibility of playing piano to the majority of people.Your potential market is not only among the pianists who would switch to smaller keyboards, but also the huge population until now not allowed by you to play piano.The potential market is enormous !!!

I'd hazard a guess that it's less than 1/16 of the size of the standard digital piano market.

However, by all means, please feel free to submit your suggestion for smaller keys to Kawai via the official contact methods.

Yes, it certainly has to be done.Another way, possibly, is to contact lawmakers, our representatives.

There could be a law against discrimination forcing piano makers to make pianos suitable also for the majority of people.Lack of such pianos is simply cruel.

BTW, Kawai James, are your plastic RH-II keys on ES7 hollow, empty inside?I mean, could I remove the right corners of the keys with some file? Just from the top of the key. That would allow to reach the most difficult 10ths easier but should not affect playing those keys, I think. A substitute for smaller keys.

This way, just the principle here, I think it is clear what I mean :

instead of:

I....II....II__I

make

I...II...II_/

If, for example, E key is "improved" this way, then it is easier to reach C#-F

However I would strongly recommend against doing so, because you'd ruin a perfectly good keyboard.

I am hoping not to ruin it. Just the opposite. To make it usable without pain.

I have two concerns, though:

1. That I might open up a hole in a corner of the key if it is hollow and pretty thin.

2. That some small particles might drop into the keyboard and get into the mechanism or on the sensors.To avoid that it would be best to remove the keys first before filing them, but I don't know if it is easy to do so.

Anyway, at this point I am only thinking about buying ES7 (or PX-350 - depending on which action is better) and then filing the keys.

The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.

Thanks for your suggestion, actually the first thing I did was to adjust the layer volume, but as typed above , the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices.

So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

But with the 350, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, add long as the sustain its pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.

Thank you for being able to articulate what I was unable to.

The action on this thing is incredible for its price point--it really is much better than the PX-130 and pretty much, in my opinion, anything else less than over twice its price that I've tried. However, the layer thing just kills it for me.

I understand that it's a digital piano first and that the other sounds are just icing, gravy, or whatever expression you'd like to use; however, the layering function in its current state, I'm really not sure it's even usable. Everything sounds like a muddy mess due to the 'infinite sustain' of strings and other voices. And you can adjust the 'layer balance' so that it favors the piano instead of the strings; but even with it set the whole way toward piano, you still hear the strings and their sustain is still too loud.

I really wanted to like this board. Really, really. I held off on buying anything for 3 months so that I could give this one a go, but I think I might have to buy something else now. Maybe the issue is my inexperience or that I had expectations that were too high (or maybe there's just some setting I've missed after poring over the manual three times), but I still just can't use this board as much as I really, really wanted to.

In either case, Casio should be super, super proud of what they've accomplished. The action on this thing is just fantastic. And that they can put that kind of action in a board at that price and that weight, well, they should be inspiring some real fear in their pricier competition.

There's a good example. I'd say he's re-pedaling after every 2 beats.. which is also what I'd call proper pedaling technique for the passage, regardless of whether or not there were layered strings, so again, it comes down to understanding how to use the pedal. I'm pretty sure the PX-130 strings behaved just as they do on the PX-350.

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350

this is the first digital piano I came across with this "functionality"

I only came across the behavior you prefer once, and thought it was a bad idea. ;-)

I just inspected the keys of my PX-330 - they became quite loose and move sideways a lot now. When the keyboard was new they did not move at all. But, obviously, unconsciously I was squeezing the keys together all the time with great force and they had to give. I don't know if I damaged the keyboard, but now, for example, white-white 10th became shorter by 3-4 mm: 4 gaps between keys, each about 1 mm, disappear completely when playing a tenth. Of the remaining 3 in the middle, two outer ones are also somewhat reduced.Unfortunately, the most difficult black-white tenths do not allow to squeeze the keys on the black side at all and not so much on the white side as well - exactly where the biggest squeeze is needed...

All those problems because cruel piano makers won't make keyboards for regular people. Only for selected few.A mass-market keyboard is badly needed. I think Casio could be that company. It already is making stuff for regular people, like non-Rolex watches, etc. Mike?

You know what? <snippage...> All those problems because cruel piano makers won't make keyboards for regular people. Only for selected few.

You know what? We get your beef. It's just that most of us don't agree with it. The idea that MI manufacturers are deliberately, maliciously excluding people from learning the piano is ludicrous. I started learning the piano at five and not only was it some time before I could play an octave, I couldn't reach the pedals before I was about eight. Should I have complained that my piano manufacturer hadn't thought to have an adjustable lyre?

There are many players out there who have overcome many physical disadvantages to become good or even great players...

The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.

Thanks for your suggestion, actually the first thing I did was to adjust the layer volume, but as typed above , the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices.

So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

I've owned 2 Yamahas, tested some Korgs and they never had this issue. It might be my limited experience with digital pianos, but this its the first time I came across this

But with the 350, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, add long as the sustain its pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.

The piano and strings on the PX-350, respond similarly to the example of the PX-130 in the video link above...although both the string and piano sounds are new.

When you guys are going to produce digital pianos with 7/8 and 15/16 size keys? It is mind boggling that nobody does that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. None of my wife's students are men - the only males are children, with the rest female children, teens, and women. They could likely all benefit from narrower keys.

Then again the QWERTY keyboard was designed to be as sub-optimal as possible, and despite some efforts (DVORAK) we all continue to struggle on them. And the Intel processor standard is pretty much a dog. Never underestimate the power of an established standard.

When you guys are going to produce digital pianos with 7/8 and 15/16 size keys? It is mind boggling that nobody does that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. None of my wife's students are men - the only males are children, with the rest female children, teens, and women. They could likely all benefit from narrower keys.

Then again the QWERTY keyboard was designed to be as sub-optimal as possible, and despite some efforts (DVORAK) we all continue to struggle on them. And the Intel processor standard is pretty much a dog. Never underestimate the power of an established standard.

Interesting tangent here. I for one would welcome smaller keys. I can barely stretch my thumb and pinky from C to C. Anything more is out of reach, literally.

In my lectures I have been giving at universities I say one statement that causes a shock of awareness that allows people to be able to see this issue as I do. I pick from the audience a female pianist who agrees that she has an average female hand-- not really small and not unusually large for a female.

I then take her hand and show it to the class and say, "If Vladimir Horowitz had been born with this hand, you would have never heard of him."

... the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices. So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

... however, the layering function in its current state, I'm really not sure it's even usable. Everything sounds like a muddy mess due to the 'infinite sustain' of strings and other voices. And you can adjust the 'layer balance' so that it favors the piano instead of the strings; but even with it set the whole way toward piano, you still hear the strings and their sustain is still too loud.

... maybe there's just some setting I've missed after poring over the manual three times), but I still just can't use this board as much as I really, really wanted to.

Sounds to me like the player/owner can try all sorts of settings in an attempt to alleviate the issue, although no answer is to be found.