Ok I will make it clearer. Taking drugs is self inflicted.Not everybody uses banned drugs.But at some time most will have to cross a road.How can you compare the two?

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the differance between our arguement, is that you are taking a moral highroad which is extremely subjective.

So we should allow people to do what they want in a modern society? Regardless of the effect on others?

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haha.So laws are always right, and benifical to society as a whole?40 years ago, being homosexual was illegal in alot of countries and seen as a mental afflication. So because that was the law, it was right?Neither alcohol or Tobacco are illegal, yet scientific studies will show that the health and social effects of them substances are worse then ecstasy, which is class a in the U.K, and in the worst range of hard drugs in America. Surely this shows that laws aren't always there to help us, because surely alcohol would be illegal? Oh no...hang on, that would mean the government would lose alot of money through taxation.

Nope some laws were wrong.Actualy there are things being addressed here in the UK.Smoking (bans) and excessice alcohol consumption is being penelised. Most drug dealers are banged up.

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As someone says, these drugs being illegal causes more problems then if they were regulated and legal.

Not taking anything would be a better choice. Why legalise something like steriods or class A drugs?

Quote:Shows exactly the amount of time you have spent around hard drug users. By the looks of it none. Your dreaming.

Haha.Depends, what you class as hard, but I know lots of people who take Class A drugs regularly. Yes it will effect their health. However, it is their choice. They made it rationally. They are all educated, and either work good jobs or are in higher education (i.e university undergrad/postgrads). Still, I dont understand where that comment came from.

Lovely. Its accepted that people use class A drugs? So the drug dealers? the crime attached to it?Parents losing their children to the state because of drug use? Who considers the child? The person who makes the choice about drugs?Peoples relatives ending up in a cemetry because of overdose? Sure the parents arent to happy about it do you think?Crime through drug sales?

Etc etc.

In the uk at the moment its getting interesting. Drug dealers banged up. House and assets from drug sales seized. Educated people eh? Realy educated or weak enough to use class A drugs. Realy good prospect for children growing up.But wait? I know youngsters who take the wee wee out of their idiot relatives who use drugs? So the young kids are smarter eh?Sound like you accept the people who use drugs?I tolerate them. Others dont.

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Drug rehab clinics are there to make money in most cases.Surely they wouldnt make any money if they said that drugs were good?

If all the types who are weak enough to use drugs and steriods didnt use them there wouldnt be much of need for rehabs. Legal drug addiction aside. But that is another scenario.

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At the end of the day, your entire arguement's are based on...They are illegal thus bad.

Partly true. But also because of the effect on other people who dont use them regardless of legal jargon.If we were meant to be drugged up then I am sure evolution would have seen to it.

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But then laws can be wrong, since they are made by people, and people can be wrong.

Of course. But dont you think that is why they are changed?Corruption comes in all forms.

I dont think I am being judgmental. More why would a person wants to use drugs at all? A steriod user considers his choice in using them? but not how it can effect other people ?

Back to the topic. Is he on them yes I think he is.Imagine no drugs no steriods and everything is competition?Those that train hard would still win? Or is that it? They cant train hard with out drugs? Or cant compete in sociaty with out the need of a prop?

Steroids lead to further drug use or physical / mental complications.I think they should ban them.

Actually I may be wrong on that...Simple google search tells me it has links to heart failure, and has anxietal implications.

Quote:So who makes the choice for you crossing the road?

You do.Just like you make the choice of whether to take drugs.And generlaly these are educated choices.Even if they can lead to hospitalisation or death.

Quote:Ok I will make it clearer. Taking drugs is self inflicted.Not everybody uses banned drugs.But at some time most will have to cross a road.How can you compare the two?

The reason I use the crossing the road link, is because looking at the proportional figures of: people who are involved in road accidents and die or get seriously injured, and the people who use certain hard drugs and die, show that you are more likely to die in a car crash if you drive, then die after using certain drugs.

Quote:Actualy all of those are being addressed here in the UK.Smoking bans and excessice alcohol consumption.

I dont see them banning either alcohol or tobacco.Therefore my statement is perfectly valid.

Quote:Lovely. Its accepted that people use class A drugs? So the drug dealers? the crime attached to it? In the uk at the moment its getting interesting. Drug dealers banged up. House and assets from drug sales seized.Educated people eh?

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At the end of the day the crime that goes with the black market, wouldnt be there if that market was legal.At the end of the day it is acceptable in some cultures to use drugs.The dance culture.The Rastafarian culture.

Therefore I'm sure all the moral entreuprenuers in the world are not going to change that. Therefore it is better to accept that it happens and put things in place to limit the risk.I am not argueing this because I'm some hardcore weed smoker or pillhead.I accept that these things happen, therefore we should appreciate that and limit the risks.

It's like the whole sexual abstience culture. You can tell everyone not to have sex till marriage, but that wont stop young people getting pregant, therefore you need to have things in place to stop it.

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If all the types who are weak enough to use drugs and steriods didnt use them there wouldnt be much of need for rehabs.

Your idea of weakness is not universal.My friends didnt use drugs out of any sense of peer pressure. They were open minded and enjoyed their experiances, therefore they will continue, or some will get bored and stop.The differeance between them and you, is that they dont put pressure or label people that dont use drugs, yet you will do the opposite.

Quote:If we were meant to be drugged up then I am sure evolution would have seen to it.

Lol.Surely the fact that some substances are physiologically addictive means that evolution in some sense has seen to it that some of us are drugged up.And maybe if we werent spose to be drugged up, then evolution would make us not enjoy them?

Quote:I know youngsters who take the wee wee out of their idiot relatives who use drugs?

Quote:Ok jude, first off, cut the bowing and 'we are all fellow MAists' routine. That only ever gets used by people in a passive-aggressive manner who try and appear open minded on a subject they are blatantly set in stone on.

Jude wrote:

Quote:I see what I see. I dont realy need evidence to back up what I see.

Brilliant. And I thought you were all about learning

Quote:Thanks for the advise but no thanks. Interesting about the statement of aggression part? Interesting but wrong.

Then stop being passive-aggressive, and provide genuine clinical proof that backs up your opinions (not facts)

Quote:That would be like saying personal choice of using hard drugs. You live in a society. Steriods lead to problems.

Again, ROID RAGE IS NOT A MEDICALY RECOGNISED FACT. The majority use without change of character or incident.

Quote:Problems seen fit enough to make unlicenced sale of them illegal. For reasons.

*sigh* not so big on the reading are you? the reason anabolic steroids are largely illegal is that they by and large have not been developed for, nor licensed for, human use. If you want to use that as a good reason not to use them, then thats fine, but as a reformed recreational drug user myself, this idea that steroids open the door to heroin and cocaine, simply does not hold water. There are links regarding dealing, but not in usage.

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you first cited cocaine as a mental stabiliser for steroid use. Now it is opiods. Cocaine is a competely different drug, from genus through to effect, to any opioid. Which is it? Constant symptoms have constant cures.

The street price on cocaine was/ is rock bottom. Herion is the worst drug anybody can use. So unless they are realy stupid( and the they do exist) most I am aware of use cocaine.

You have missed my point. If roid rage was a constant and definable condition, then it would be treatable with a specific type of medication. Heroin and cocaine are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in action and function. therefor only one would alleviate roid rage symptoms, whilst the other would either have zero, or a negative effect. inconsistent remedy, equals incosistent symptoms, equals inconsistent proof of condition.

Quote:If it is available fine. Roid rage exists so does the other things connected with steriods. But I will look for data.

Good luck with that, as there has yet to be a widely accepted body of data published on the subject.

Quote:Yeah? wrong. There are natural atheletes who work just as hard with out steriods.

There may be a small minority of elite athletes who have the genetics to perform unaided at the highest level. The majority do not, and make up the difference with modern chemistry. Those who test 'clean' seldom are, they just have better advice on timing of cycles and a healthy bank balance for tip offs on 'random' testing. Sad, but true.

Quote:Competition should be between human ability.

It is. its an even playing field at the top tier- they all use, so no one has an advantage. Sweet.

Quote:Not who has the better roid use and given the side effects of roids they shouldnt be used.

If someone has better roid advice, its an unfair advantage- that is your argument yes?What about someone getting better conditioning advice?Better coaching?Better nutritional programmes?Having better genetics?more money and time to train?being younger?

All these can be considered an 'unfair advantage'. The advantage is exactly what competition is about getting.

Quote:Personal choice is one thing. Using illegel drugs is another. The effects of a roid use on the public needs to be considered. One of the reasons certain states in America have taken the actions they have done.

Quote:Think of it this way. If no one used roids and he did what he did he would be a the top of his chosen field?

Yes. But you cant stop everyone taking steroids. Its impossible, so the next best thing is to approach the issue with a mature and balanced attitude to understand, control and improve the safety of those involved.

Quote:Doesnt justify there use.

Why do people have to justify themselves to you? Who do you answer to? or do you live a life beyond reproach?

Quote:So why not just ban them totaly and let people be judged as a natural athelete? Why make them legal?

Please see above. They are already banned. Banning things never works. drugs, speeding, murder, rape, theft, putting money in other peoples parking meters. All 'banned' all part of daily life. 'banned' is just a phrase- it has no bearing on the subject to which it is aimed.

Quote:Roids are false and lead to problems. If no one used them then you would still be in work advising people.So I cant see how that realy effects you.??

i have no idea what this paragraph actually means? i was a very successful trainer, but gave it up as I was getting married and wanted a lifestyle that gave me more free time, and a change of scenery. The legal status of steroids had nothing whatsoever to do with it, and I never advocated, supplied, condoned, or approved of their use in any of my clients, nor have I ever on here suggested that steroids were a sensible option for any of our members.but I refuse to demonise things that simply are not thoroughly researched, nor jump on media band wagons, nor sit in judgement of people going about their lives not bothering others.You would do well to follow my lead.

jude33 I don't think someone should be penalised for their personal choices, nobody is perfect. You're entitled to your opinion but it is wrong to try and force that upon other people or look down upon them for having a different view to yours.

They should be able to decide for themselves, this is how our society is. Laws are there for our protection; it doesn't mean they are all correct but common sense can be applied here ie murder is wrong noone is saying otherwise but some other laws are more like overly protective mothers in a sense.

EDIT: Also the picture of arnold on the first page is considered a fake widely on the internet. I'm not that good with photosoftware yet but I think arnold is still in pretty good shape and supposedly on the picture you can see where it is edited. I have no idea how credible this is though.

Actually I may be wrong on that...Simple google search tells me it has links to heart failure, and has anxietal implications.

Interesting. Care to post the website address?

Quote:So who makes the choice for you crossing the road?

You do.Just like you make the choice of whether to take drugs.And generlaly these are educated choices.Even if they can lead to hospitalisation or death.

That is a bad comparison. A person needs to cross the road. They dont normaly need to take drugs unless addicted or just want to.

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The reason I use the crossing the road link, is because looking at the proportional figures of: people who are involved in road accidents and die or get seriously injured, and the people who use certain hard drugs and die, show that you are more likely to die in a car crash if you drive, then die after using certain drugs.

I think that is a bad comparison. Driving has its risks and is required. Drugs use has its risks and isnt required. I cant see the logical comparison.

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I dont see them banning either alcohol or tobacco.Therefore my statement is perfectly valid.

Banned smoking in pubs clubs and some public places. High price on cigaretes. Being drunk is now being penalised on the street and if a publican continuse to sell alcohol to a person deemed drunk they get fined/ prosecuted.Plain clothes police are all over the place. Maybe you you arent aware of these things? Being if you are in America that is.People getting fined dont see them/ are aware of them either.I dont use drugs or drink a lot so I can normaly see them.

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At the end of the day the crime that goes with the black market, wouldnt be there if that market was legal.At the end of the day it is acceptable in some cultures to use drugs.The dance culture.The Rastafarian culture.

I couldnt care less where its acceptable, Break the law and they go to court.

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Therefore I'm sure all the moral entreuprenuers in the world are not going to change that. Therefore it is better to accept that it happens and put things in place to limit the risk.

Nope ban it and if they wont conform go to jail.

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I am not argueing this because I'm some hardcore weed smoker or pillhead.I accept that these things happen, therefore we should appreciate that and limit the risks.

Build more prisons and to jail they go. Laws are laws.This tolerant attitude is the reason for a lot of problems in this country. It is being tightened up a lot

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It's like the whole sexual abstience culture. You can tell everyone not to have sex till marriage, but that wont stop young people getting pregant, therefore you need to have things in place to stop it.

Cant see the connection. Getting pregnant above legal age isnt a crime.

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Your idea of weakness is not universal.My friends didnt use drugs out of any sense of peer pressure. They were open minded and enjoyed their experiances, therefore they will continue, or some will get bored and stop.The differeance between them and you, is that they dont put pressure or label people that dont use drugs, yet you will do the opposite.

Because they are weak. Heroin addicts very rarely come off drugs. Perhaps tell your freinds to go to the gym or run. Minus steriods. At least they will be healthier.Drug use is attached to other people suffering in one form or another. Did your friends consider the effect on their parents to drug use?

Quote:If we were meant to be drugged up then I am sure evolution would have seen to it.

Lol.Surely the fact that some substances are physiologically addictive means that evolution in some sense has seen to it that some of us are drugged up.And maybe if we werent spose to be drugged up, then evolution would make us not enjoy them?

Wrong.I get my pleasure and feel good factor from training. I dont need addictive drugs. I dont realy need to have to see the effects of drug use on other people/ friends because the user didnt consider anybody but themselves.

Quote:I know youngsters who take the wee wee out of their idiot relatives who use drugs?

Well I'm glad you advocate what other people would see as bullying.

I doubt if a 12 year old calling his mother a smack head cos he is sick of seeing her in a state is considered bullying. Pathetic I think.Maybe the mother should consider her child?

I am glad the young ones are stronger not to go the same direction. The present generation of young people I see dont seem to want drugs or if they train, steriods. Just an observation.

Quote:jude33 I don't think someone should be penalised for their personal choices, nobody is perfect. You're entitled to your opinion but it is wrong to try and force that upon other people or look down upon them for having a different view to yours.

That would depend on how you live or have to live considering what other people are doing. Drugs means crime.From stealing to demise. Guns to drug rape. Why should I put up with that? I dont. Steriod use leads to other drug use. One big circle. Crime is down drasticaly since the dealers got banged up.Including steriod dealing. Small time drug addicts dealing are put out of their houses.

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They should be able to decide for themselves, this is how our society is. Laws are there for our protection; it doesn't mean they are all correct but common sense can be applied here ie murder is wrong noone is saying otherwise but some other laws are more like overly protective mothers in a sense.

Wrong. Normal people that work want to lead a normal life.Then the laws should be applied. I think some of you guys posting on here live in a peacefull society?

Icons that use steriods fuel the sale of steriods. Steriods lead to other drug use. Drugs mess up lifes. Drug dealing / drug use means high crime.

Jude, this thread was about peoples opinion , educate or otherwise, regarding if Ronnie Coleman took anabolic steroids. Anything to do with this topic inevitably leads to wider discussion, and that is ok to a point; but when a thread gets turned into a personal political manifesto, it becomes off topic, and also against forum rules regarding the nature of content that is allowed.The fact that you chose to completely disregard my last post speaks volumes- after all you 'see what you see' dont you? and this mentality leads to seeing only what you want to see. Thread locked to prevent further off topic grandstanding.ps. for goodness sake, please learn to use the quote function properly- preview your posts. It will at least help what you have to say be readable.