Maths

Incredibly, Chris Harris was in coverage for 35 snaps against Philly in Week 4, but was never thrown at. According to PFF, that's the most coverage snaps by any player this season without having been targeted.

Incredibly, the average age of World Series viewers has increased by a whopping 4.5 years in just four years' time. It can't help that all of the games are so late at night, but obviously, this is not a good sign for the sport's popularity.

Doug is IAOFM’s resident newsman and spelling czar. Follow him on Twitter @IAOFM

I was not expecting the neediness of that big dog as her previous owners had her as an outside dog. If she was allowed in the house it was only to a dog bed near the door.

At our place she had a bed in most rooms. Drove my wife nuts one in my office, front room and my daughter spoiled her by allowing her to sleep in her bed. Both of them beings amazons in size made me wonder how either got any sleep. Spread out like they were..

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-09 02:04:54

A class response. From a true dawg.

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-08 20:48:54

very sorry to hear of the loss of your pooch. :( We lost 3 cats in the last two years (my gf and I each had two when we moved in together), then just got a kitten to hang out with our remaining older cat. I love dogs and cats equally, have gotten great pleasure out of both over the years so I would not rank one as better at least for me, but everyone has their tastes, lifestyles and needs... depends on the breed too (for either animal.) May they rest in peace.

Posted by underdog on 2013-11-08 19:27:51

Cats are easier, but frankly Dogs are better. I've only had one cat that I liked and probably only because she thought she was a dog. Did all the dog things, waiting for you at the front door when you got home, constantly be at your side, NEVER aloof.. Did not act like a guard dog barking when she heard noises but beyound that played fetch just like a dog.

I just lost my big wiemerainer she had lung cancer and had to put her down when she could not breath anymore. But to the end was always at my side if she heard the car keys she would be at the front door to go,for a ride. Best dog I've ever had. We got her from friends when they moved to NYC no place for a big dog. They got her from a rescue place so really did not know how old she really was but I'd gues 12-14. Had a pretty good last 7 years.

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-08 16:00:40

Naw, this dog loves his cats. :) (They're easier to have than dogs, much as I love my canine brethren.)

Posted by underdog on 2013-11-08 13:13:35

Who said he want to continue with the Dolphins? I said he wants back in the league. And I can't provide you with a direct quote because he's not saying anything, but that's what's being reported, and that's clearly coming from his camp.

I agree it's sad but I have seen people talk to friends like that often, always as a joke. The voicemails are so over the top awful i do wonder if they were truly meant to be tongue in cheek.

Posted by jman75 on 2013-11-07 21:24:11

YET most of his "TROOPS" support him and not martin..

I see what you mean..

For that matter most never saw any issues between teh two..

I will re-state what I said in my original post..

"Myself I think I want to hear what the NFL comes up with to see who is or IF anyone is lynched."

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-07 20:47:14

they just may not have identified themselves as such per see.. My definition of left of liberal is being a progressive, of which there are plenty ..

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-07 20:44:53

lets see underdog owning cats.. That seems to be mutually exclusive..

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-07 20:43:01

I think that MOST posters over the past couple of years have pissed and moaned about the flags thrown and the rules that have limited hitting on the field of battle..

Now YOU personally may not have used that word and for that matter you may not have complained. But I bet you know of many that implied it..

SO sorry about your life long affliction of being a liberal..

JK..

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-07 20:42:21

The big difference here, Doc, is billions of words will be written and spoken about this hostile workplace. If some Dolphin just got accused of smacking his wife around, it would barely be discussed outside of Miami.

Posted by Yahmule on 2013-11-07 20:30:52

Exactly. Thanks for reminding me about that.

His players nicknamed him the Big Tuna because he was such a hideous sight in the showers. Not too respectful. Some people could take that the wrong way.

Posted by Yahmule on 2013-11-07 20:27:42

Actually I served Honerably, going through boot camp twice once in San Deigo and again in Connecticut.

I would suspect that the vast majority of the male veterans will come out of the service not only men but as conservatives. I can say that not one that I have met that has seen hazardous duty has come out the other side a bleeding heart liberal.

In my case Being conservative does not mean you are a right winger, just that we know what the government was set up to do, not what it has evolved into.

But typical of most BHLs they tend to brand and call names. Welcome to that club.

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-07 19:57:05

Didn't Parcells repeatedly and publicly refer to Terry Glenn as "she" and other female modifiers? Maybe I'm soft, but that's at least an attempt to bully someone through calling into question his manhood...

Posted by Nick (ncm42) on 2013-11-07 19:39:15

Wow, I didn´t expect the RT End to have the best numbers on the team. Thanks for the great answer, Doc.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 19:34:24

Good question on the blocking numbers. Obviously, Manning's release is a big part of the line's success.

Gross cumulative stats like this often are often misleading because they leave out the 'Why? of the stat. Franklin's footwork has improved hugely on his pass blocking and having 330 lb of nasty next to him in Vasquez makes his pass work more effective - it's hard to get through 660 lbs of pass blocking, esp when PM is so fast.

On Vasquez: he has the best run-blocking numbers he's ever had. For what it's worth, what I see is in great part the effect of Franklin next to Vasquez on the right and Manny on the left - which of the three gets the credit isn't that important to me. What is is that the right side B and C gaps are places where Denver's gotten a lot of yards. Hillman has his two best runs through Vasquez's blocking (9.0 ypc).

The right edge has also been productive, esp when the TEs block well on the corner. The 'RT End' (which is between Franklin and the TE or pulling guard) has the best numbers on the team - with Moreno running, it was 9.4 yards per attempt, 4 plays. Vasquez and Franklin have the best of the big runs and Manny is blocking very well on run plays. For those who do the premium part of the site at PFF, this page is invaluable: https://www.profootballfocus.c...

Posted by Doc Bear on 2013-11-07 18:55:49

It´s a great read, simple to understand but incredibly insightful. It actually explains really well why some QBs never take the leap into consistent domination of the line of scrimmage, while others like Peyton Manning spend a lot of time explaining (and quizzing) to their WRs why routes are run that way in any given play.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 18:19:14

The game becomes more complex every day. The terminology alone requires a certain amount of intelligence and mental discipline to master. People like to call football players stupid, but their profession requires immense technical knowledge that must be recognized and applied instantly, usually with multiple responsibilities that can change depending upon the actions of their opponents.

Not a game for the weak minded. The stereotype of the dumb jock is a persistent one, though. Read some NFL guys on Twitter (not an actual suggestion by any means) and you'll see some poor spelling and diction and some odd world views, but it doesn't make those guys stupid.

Posted by Yahmule on 2013-11-07 18:15:56

I can dispute because it seems like a very loaded and leading statement. The boundaries in most NFL lockerrooms far exceed minimal respect for mental health. To look at the experiences of a group of players in one lockerroom and decide that means the entire league culture is complicit is incorrect. And that includes many players who happen to believe that the best policy for dealing with a bully is face to face. Obviously a person can believe in standing up to a bully without condoning the behavior.

Posted by Yahmule on 2013-11-07 18:04:06

Someone has to take the first step to fixing the issue. All that's required is enough forgiveness to try to help the guy. Doesn't mean you have to maintain that attitude if he never changes.

I never said he shouldn't be punished, which is what you imply by stating I'm saying it's closed-minded to hold him accountable. I never said that. I am saying that beyond the punishment, there should be some form of rehabilitation.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 17:53:21

The laughable notion is that they're going to purge aggressive alpha male attitudes from the sport. Good luck with that program. Some future Al Davis can't wait for that to become the trend. Does anybody think John Madden had one of the highest winning percentages in history because he was a great coach? I think it was because Davis happily welcomed players who were blackballed elsewhere.

Posted by Yahmule on 2013-11-07 17:49:19

Your words imply that forgiveness is owed to him, and that´s really harmful in its own way. Collectively, what matters is not how good (or guilty, or whatever) Incognito feels about himself, or how objectively well-off he is after all this, but ensuring that lamentable actions like his don´t happen again. How does holding him accountable for his toxic behavior equate to closed-mindedness? If he doesn´t change his actions, what good is "forgiveness" to him or anyone else?

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 17:45:39

Incognito might need quite a bit of mentoring/education before you see any atonement. My guess is he sees nothing wrong with his behavior. My question is are people willing to give the guy the chance to go through that educational process, or will they be as closed-minded as those they criticize?

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 17:25:48

One thing that should be noted is that, according to PFF, Franklin has been deficient mainly in the running game (which doesn´t jive with what uneducated people like me have been seeing, so I´d be interested in Doc Bear and Ted´s opinion on that), which means that in terms of pass protection, almost the entire unit has been stellar (even if Manning´s a major reason for that, it´s still a team accomplishment).

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 17:18:24

LOL, sorry...I didn't mean to disrupt the flow! ;)

Posted by Nick (ncm42) on 2013-11-07 17:14:42

It´s especially puzzling given how widely publicized the intelligence of NFL QBs and O linemen is (according to standardized tests, which have their own set of limitations). The articles Doug has linked to in the past days about CJ Anderson and Arian Foster, or reading about Larry Fitzgerald´s trajectory also prove that many NFL players have interests that lie outside football and stereotypical frat hobbies. The problem, in my opinion, is not that NFL players are somehow more stupid than the rest of the USA, but that their beliefs reflect those of the society at large.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 17:14:08

Before we talk about forgiveness, there should be atonement. As long as Incognito firmly believes his behavior was acceptable or even admirable, talking about forgiveness is instead enabling.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 17:02:40

Here's another thing, and this is not an attack on you but rather a sincere question. You have explicitly condoned, endorsed, and explained away all of this abhorrent behavior for several days now, but then you add by way of explanation that "the vast majority of NFL players will never be admitted to the Mensa party's [sic].' But if that explains the behavior, would not the same thing explain your endorsement of the behavior? Something to consider before you make such comments. Also, I have to disagree with your broad demeaning of the intelligence of the "vast majority" of NFL players, and I question where this hatefulness comes from. You should listen to the weekly interviews that Brandon Spano and others do with the Broncos players. You might be surprised at how intelligent and well-grounded most of them are. I have no trouble at all believing that the "vast majority" of NFL players are good people who would not find it that difficult to treat each other with dignity and respect.

Posted by AldenBrown on 2013-11-07 16:59:12

He wasn´t evoking it too seriously, but it´s galling nonetheless, especially since everybody is busy predicting that the sky will fall on the Broncos during the second half of the season (meanwhile, FO points out that KC currently has one of the weakest SoS ever at this point in the season -http://www.footballoutsiders.c... , read comments 74 and 83).

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 16:58:32

I'll find a lot of value in the coach that could take a guy like Incognito and get his behavior right. I wonder if anyone will pick him up again? Our society is quick to condemn his behavior, claiming higher morals/respect of others in the process....but forgiveness isn't often in our vocabulary, either.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 16:55:39

Very refreshing. A comment about the Broncos!

Posted by bradley on 2013-11-07 16:48:53

In the same vein as what you speak of, Doc, a lot of coaches talk about how they want to help their players become better not only on the field but also outside of it. How can you achieve that if you don´t demand exemplary conduct in the work setting? Expecting NFL players to step out of the stadium and behave in a respectful manner towards their partners, friends and children makes no sense if with their own colleagues "might is right" applies.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 16:47:15

As a progressive owner of cats I guess I'm pussified, too. Wait, that's not what he meant?

Posted by underdog on 2013-11-07 16:46:43

As a lifelong liberal, I am pretty sure that word has not been part of my vocabulary. I think I'd remember that.

Posted by Alaskan on 2013-11-07 16:39:54

The disputed behavior is not pancaking people, but the kind of acts AldenBrown is detailing below, that, sustained over a long period of time, can be devastating on a person´s emotional well-being.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 16:38:20

here I ambut I have little to addsince defending Rich seems nuts

Posted by Alaskan on 2013-11-07 16:36:59

I spent a lot of my time outside of work and study in the black belt locker rooms of dojo all over the US. I don't buy the 'it's the locker room' nonsense. When you're sharing space with men who, like the football players, can do massive damage in a brief period of time, courtesy and respect are essential. Personally, I think that's true of all of us. If the franchise isn't supporting that, they're foolish. The constant flow of domestic violence among NFL players suggests the pointlessness of supporting that 'locker room' sort of disrespect and hostility that Incognito tries to pretend is normal.

Read Vince Lombardi's comments on the importance of love among his players and the refusal to permit words like spic, nigger and wop. Is there any doubt that this was an elite member of the NFL? His demand that all under his edict treat each other with respect and decency wouldn't have bothered with someone like Incognito - he would have been tossed like last week's trash.

Posted by Doc Bear on 2013-11-07 16:36:44

The last 2 or 3 years, I've been pretty consistent in hoping and begging for the team to move on from Knowshon. The end of last season and beginning of this one had me happily eating those words. Reading the MMQB article on him has me past even that...I'm very proud to have that guy on our team. He's the perfect back for this offense, and the way he attacked "fixing things" should serve as an inspiration to his younger teammates. Bravo, Knowshon!

Posted by Nick (ncm42) on 2013-11-07 16:32:25

Wait, you mean you can't pancake someone without calling him a nigger, threatening to shit in his mouth, and making death threats against him and his family? Let's ask Ryan Clady if that's true.

Posted by AldenBrown on 2013-11-07 16:25:08

I´ll edit the part where I deformed your words.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 16:21:56

Do you try to pancake people to the ground at your place of work? Is that "legal" where you work?!?

Posted by Broncologist on 2013-11-07 16:21:09

You are correct although what followed didn't necessarily represent. Either way I apologize to you because I love the lard and was out of line to mention you!

Posted by Broncologist on 2013-11-07 16:19:49

"But there are boundaries in locker rooms, same as anywhere else, and those boundaries are culturally conditioned, same as anywhere else, and they change with time, and they can be influenced. And it would be really good, it would be a really good thing, if the NFL moved its boundaries in such a way as to show some minimal respect for mental health."

How can anyone dispute that? Excellent find, underdog.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 16:18:26

It's definitely societal, it's just amplified in Football. Football, however, typically attracts bigger guys with alpha male dominant type personalities. Those types of personalities probably stand up to the bullying or that type of behavior better, i.e., the kind of attitudes you see in football locker rooms. You could actually make the argument that in football locker rooms you have a smaller rate of people being subjected to bullying who actually succumb to those stresses and become emotionally crushed.

The issue with the Dolphins isn't the first time this issue has come up. It's probably just the first time a guy has quit a team and gone into therapy under such exposed circumstances. Most guys would hide it out of fear for being ridiculed so they quit under less auspicious circumstances and attribute it to something else. Either that, or they bitch about it and keep playing. I've remember there was an incident with the Giants I think a few years back where one guy threw a rookie into the ice water (typical rookie hazing), but the rookie didn't take to kindly to it and he spoke up about it. One of the other players had video'd it on his phone and posted it to twitter or something like that so when the media got a hold of it and the player spoke out about it, Caughlin had to put the kilbosh on those practices in his locker room. I don't remember who the rookie player was, but he didn't quit. Maybe he wasn't as liked in the locker room after that, I don't know. Maybe he's still in the league, I don't know, but that's a similar case where a guy kept getting picked on until it broke to the media and the coach put a stop to it.

Posted by Rollston Frangopoulos on 2013-11-07 16:12:33

Well, you are making a lot of assumptions based on hearsay (it's all hearsay except for Incognitos' recorded messages) and since you enjoy doing so, go right ahead. I'm saying we don't know anything for sure. You have your mind made up.I'm done with this, except for one thing:"...which constitute strong indications that the Dolphins´organization had prior knowledge of Martin´s plight (explaining his reluctance, you agreed)..."I didn't agree to that. What I said was this:"Perhaps he was just reluctant to speak up, but perhaps he is experiencing mental problems that have nothing to do with the Dolphins or football."You should get your dictionary out and read what "perhaps" means.Bye.

Posted by bradley on 2013-11-07 16:03:10

LOL, who could have predicted this post from Lonestar? Could you please identify the posts where liberals complain about how pussified the NFL has become? I must have missed those. I'm not sure I've ever heard a liberal use the word "pussified" before. Words like that are the exclusive province of your ilk.

Posted by AldenBrown on 2013-11-07 15:57:14

left of liberals?I have yet to hear anySoviets weigh in

Posted by therealhaikuboy on 2013-11-07 15:56:12

He can show up at the dolphin hq whenever he wants to.

Also can you show me a direct quite from him stating that?

Posted by BRASO on 2013-11-07 15:54:03

Well, the only reports we have so far are that Martin wants back in the league.

Posted by AldenBrown on 2013-11-07 15:51:31

Then you of anyone should remember how you were taught to support the other guys on your team. Don't you remember having to win or suffer as a team? Don't you remember how you had to help your weakest guys to succeed? Don't you remember your DI chewing anyone's ass if they tried to shit on a fellow troop?

I sure as hell do. You pull that macho ignorant shit that Incognito does on a fellow troop and get caught, our superiors would hang your ass out to dry as an example in front of everyone. And, it didn't produce pussies...it produced some of the best fighting units the world experiences.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 15:49:04

Dispiriting, isn´t it? Once again, Martin and his family are showing so much courage. I´m sure anyone would look forward to being called a weak shameful excuse of a player in public by ex and future colleagues.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 15:48:19

Great point about player suicides.

Posted by therealhaikuboy on 2013-11-07 15:47:14

You´re ignoring the fact that Martin had gone to Philbin previously to complain about the situation, that sources suggest a member of the coaching staff actually asked Incognito to "toughen up" Martin, that when Martin´s agent reported the situation to GM Jeff ireland, his suggestion was for Martin to punch Incognito, and that the Dolphins chose to suspend Incognito for "conduct detrimental to the team" before a formal investigation was mandated by the NFL, which constitute strong indications that the Dolphins´organization had prior knowledge of Martin´s plight (explaining his reluctance, you agreed) and didn´t believe the allegations would be easily dismissed as false, which was proven true immediately thereafter thanks to several pieces of evidence.

And by the way, I don´t understand how you can say the latter is not proof. Once again, we never have the full context of anything. If I have a friend whom I joke around with regularly, and one day I send them an e-mail identical to Incognito´s voicemail, prompting them to go to the police for whatever reason, no matter how many times I tell them that they don´t understand, there was a context behind it, the e-mail would still count as proof of my behavior, and death threats are illegal in and out of themselves. It wouldn´t be proof of conspiracy to commit murder, but isn´t it usual for people to feel unsettled in the face of vague threats even before having actual proof that a plan is being hatched against them? If you´re walking down the street and several people look at you and yell that they´re gonna beat you up, even if they never take a step towards you and just laugh between them, it´s troubling.

Martin had clearly been given hints that Incognito´s behavior was tolerated, and whether or not he was fine with it at one point, when it stopped being the case, he had a right as an employee to have his well-being guaranteed through official policies designed to protect him and all employees, and that holds true whether or not he had other mental troubles or the assertions of upstanding citizen Incognito Sr. are true. I´m not making up the link between the Dolphins and Martin´s emotional response, since HE filed a formal complaint against the team.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 15:45:14

Actually I did serive my country. I commented a day or two ago that if most of the posters would have had to go through boot camp most posts would be different.

The fact is I went through 2 of them to get to serve my country and proudly was discharged Honorably.

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-07 15:44:55

Sounds to me like you patriotic right-wingers could use a bit of time in the military to show you how men handle tough situations. It isn't by acting like a bunch of macho 12 year-olds.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 15:40:32

Withou reading comments, I'll weigh in.

Looks to me like Doug is rounding up the lynch mob and looking for a tree.

Myself I think I want to hear what the NFL comes up with to see who is or IF anyone is lynched.

The knee jerk reaction from the liberals and farther left is to comment on barbaric issues and how they need to be cleaned up. Yet a few weeks later discuss how pussiefied the NFL is or has become.

Folks y'all can not have bth sides of that fence, either you want aggressive kick them in the balls play or get ready for pink uniforms and flags on the ball carriers..

This is how coaches at all stratus get their players to toughen up. Is it right? Maybe not but the bet players rise to the top and make it to the bigs. The weak minded or the guys afraid to hit or be hit are going to fall thru the manhood cracks.

As far as using racial slurs as part as their vocabulary, IMO it should be banned on both sides of the color spectrum period as it demeans IMO both parties those that use it as greeting and those that it is directed to.

We all have to remember that the vast majority of NFL players will never be admitted to the Mensa party's, as most are ill at best education wise even though they made it tru at least a couple years of college..

Unless it is banned by the NFL as well as fined, there will always be an enforcers or two on every team. Richie will play again. IMO.

Posted by Lonestar47 on 2013-11-07 15:38:55

Coaching is all about wins so coaches put up with guys that are trouble if they deliver on the field. And please note I'm not defending harassment or dickish behavior with that comment. Only providing context.

Posted by Hank Mardukis on 2013-11-07 15:18:00

"Grown men. Tough men". Are you saying that being NFL players means they´re supposed to be exempt from the rule of law? Because as DCJ1 is saying, what happened actually constitutes a criminal offense. Maybe if Martin had followed Jeff Ireland´s advice, and punched Incognito, you´d be more inclined to give Martin the benefit of the doubt? Maybe committing assault would have given him enough macho credit other football players and ex-players would be extolling his virtues, instead of making his "mental weakness" the center of the controversy?

It´s funny you mention that you´d expect "an intelligent site like this one" to point the finger at the real problem, because one of the most striking things about this whole debacle is, as Shaun Powell underscores, that the backlash against Martin is partly motivated by the virulent anti-intellectualism that characterizes public discourse in the USA. The fact that Martin chose to document his abuse and defend himself through legal channels instead of settling things with violence makes him contemptible in the eyes of the idealized "tough men" you´re speaking about. That our culture chooses to lionize a "warrior mentality", to reprise the term Tomas Rios uses in his hyper-relevant article, that prioritizes brute strength and domination over fairness and respect should make us wary of minimizing behavior like Incognito´s.

How backwards and alarming is it that peaceful and smart resolutions garner doubt, derision and outright scorn, whereas "joking" death threats earn a multitude of defenders?

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 15:16:31

Some of that thanks should go to Manning, too. I heard an interview with Vasquez, and he said Manning makes the front line look good.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 15:15:16

I wasn't all that impressed with the Browns game either.

Posted by Hank Mardukis on 2013-11-07 15:12:25

Or maybe incorrectly educated? To me, the source would have to be the parents (or lack of). Yeah, the coaches/team definitely has ownership in allowing this to continue. To encourage or allow that kind of behavior is something the staff should be managing. However, the behavior is probably learned along the way, and allowed. Maybe it's become societal.

Wherever the root of it is, it should not be tolerated, and it needs to be changed by each individual.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 15:12:19

Those are some NICE numbers!

Posted by Rileyrott on 2013-11-07 15:12:16

Thank you coach Magazu. Never would have guessed Clark would rate more highly than Franklin. Wow.

Posted by Hank Mardukis on 2013-11-07 15:11:13

His writing was good....just the idea that's been generated (by the fans, players, media, NFL, etc.) equating these guys to men on the battlefield (granted, "warrior" doesn't necessarily mean that) is incorrect. I wanted to point out what's taught in our military. And, what's taught in the military makes a lot of sense. Hmmm....maybe a short stint in the military for these football players might turn the clowns among them into men....or at least weed them out from the organization.

My other point is that encouraging people to support each other in situations like this can produce results of truly tough "men", instead of thinking you have to demean someone to do so. In fact, demeaning someone can produce the opposite effect for the team...at least for the person you're supposedly trying to help.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 15:08:14

We are all guessing about Martins state of mind. He may have said crazy stuff too, he may not have. Only he can answer that, or other people around the situation. My guess and it's only a guess, is that Martin was looking for a way out of the league but still wanted his $$ . Time and details will hopefully reveal everything.

Posted by BRASO on 2013-11-07 15:07:02

I think undereducated is one of the key words here. These guys don't understand what bullying really is. They brush it off as if it's inconsequential, and to them, it is...until someone snaps. People snap in different ways. They feel sorry for themselves and avoid contact. They have nervous breakdowns and if they have the proper support get themselves into a hospital for treatment, otherwise, they get revenge or hurt themselves. There are signs that point to these things, but none of these guys are trained to recognise them and if they do, they see them as signs of weakness. Emotional toughness or frailty have nothing to do with a persons ability to play football. Look at players that were good, but committed suicide. I'm sure there are thousands of players that are mentally tough, but can't play worth a shit. Obviously there's a certain amount of camaraderie and shit talking and hazing, but there's a difference when it turns into bullying. It's no longer about a right of passage into the group, it's about domination and intimidation and fear and hate and continues on well past the point of hazing. I think a lot of these guys, Incognito one of them, don't understand the difference and think they're one and the same.

Posted by Rollston Frangopoulos on 2013-11-07 15:06:06

Material PROOF? We have statements but no real understanding of context. That ain't PROOF.I'm not "victim blaming". I'm pointing out that Martin left the team and for several days of talking with HC Philbin made no complaint against any ,member of the Dolphins. Perhaps he was just reluctant to speak up, but perhaps he is experiencing mental problems that have nothing to do with the Dolphins or football.You are assuming that something that happened in the locker room caused Martin to leave the team. You don't know that to be true."The fact their only concern lies with defending their locker room environment..." This is quite an assumption. Maybe the Dolphins players that spoke out were just stating the truth as they see it.

Posted by bradley on 2013-11-07 15:05:47

Good points, and I think we also can't put too much stock in the fact that Martin didn't say anything right away to Philbin. First, it's quite clear that a lot of this originated at the top, and Martin might have had a sense that this was the case. Also, it's quite possible that he was still weighing whether it was worth it to say anything. I think we've all been in situations where we had to weigh the pros and cons of telling something to a superior. It's not always an easy choice, and it clearly wasn't here, as we're seeing now. Indeed, everything that Martin could have feared would happen if he told is happening.

I do think he gets a bit hyperbolic to make the greater points (heck, he brings in Klingons, so you have to know it's going to be a little OTT ;) ) and is using a simplified definition of "warrior," but it does work to make the points.

Posted by underdog on 2013-11-07 14:58:54

Right, but you and your brothers obviously choose to speak to each other that way, and that's your business and your right. What evidence do we have that Martin spoke in a similar fashion to Incognito and was an equal and willing participant in this? If he were, I would be surprised if he got so upset that he left the team.

Posted by AldenBrown on 2013-11-07 14:57:43

AldenBrown already pointed out the existence of material proof, so I´m not sure why you write that "we know next to nothing about what happened". Perhaps you meant that we didn´t know the entire context (as in most situations, so I don´t know why we should give this one a pass anyway), but your prior statement, however unintentionally, ends up giving the impression that Martin´s complaints amount to no more than unproven allegations, which is, frankly, incredibly problematic given the social context, always rife with victim-blaming.

The other thing you´re missing is that whatever happened affected Martin so much he withdrew from the team, so things were not benign, even if everyone would rather pretend that was the case. Sure, sometimes you hurt someone unwillingly by doing or saying something stupid or immature at a bad time, which is when, if you genuinely care for the person, you apologize sincerely. In fact, in those cases, isn´t that what allows us to know if the other person really respects us, or is actually indifferent or even hostile to our well-being? Their willingness to apologize and seek forgiveness, leaving aside their pride for our sake? You´d think that after something that led to an emotional breakdown for Martin, if his Miami teammates had his back, they´d be doing something in the media other than defend themselves.

The fact their only concern lies with defending their locker room environment should be the only proof needed to conclude that there was indeed bullying, because this is, to a T, the pattern that repeats itself every time somebody breaks the esprit de corps by speaking up about abuse.

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 14:47:53

How is 16-0 possible when they're going to lose twice against the Broncos? I don't get it....

:-)

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 14:20:01

I agree. However bad SD´s defense has been this season, I´d expect them to beat KC, solely based on the fact they have a real offense. Not dominate, mind you, but win twice by a TD or 10 points? Very doable for them. Meanwhile Chris Burke (whose work has fallen off dramatically) is over there talking about 16-0 for KC...

Posted by Goéland on 2013-11-07 14:16:30

I couldnt imagine people seeing and hearing how me and my brothers talk to each other. The outside world would not understand the context and history.

Posted by BRASO on 2013-11-07 14:15:45

The media frenzy on this is nuts. Was watching CNN last night and they were talking about the situation. It quickly turned into a rant for anti bullying. There is much more to this story then any of us know.

Posted by BRASO on 2013-11-07 14:12:43

Was it the Bills game? Because that's the one I watched too, and came away with the same conclusion.

In order for KC to win against us (and against San Diego, IMO), Alex Smith is going to have to play WORLDS better than he has this season.

Posted by SammyDEEEEEE on 2013-11-07 14:06:24

"Can we really say someone was bullied?" Perhaps if we stopped using the word "bullied" and started using the word "harassed" we can stop down-playing the incident with phrases like "...grown men. Tough men....". Harassment can happen to anyone anywhere. When it happens in a bar or on the highway, the best answer is to leave the situation. When it happens in the workplace, there are rules and laws about it.

"... locker rooms are not your office or place of work ... [t]he rules, what is said, how it is said, is[sic] muuuuuch different." True, that the locker room is not my workplace. But it is (was?) Martin's workplace. And obviously what was occurring made it difficult if not impossible for him to continue working. And because it is a workplace, the law requires the maintenance of a harassment-free environment.

Icognito's intention is irrelevant. He might have honestly intended the voice mails and tests as jokes, but because the comments disturbed Martin they have crossed the border into harassment.

Posted by DCJ1 on 2013-11-07 14:03:21

Did you actually read the title and what I wrote today, or did you pen this comment yesterday to post today? I'm confused...

Posted by Douglas Lee on 2013-11-07 14:02:30

That Benoit article with the film analysis on RG3 is the best formatted film analysis I've seen so far! This type of analysis is very revealing to me, obviously including the reports from this website, and I think this presentation today is the state-of-the-art.

Posted by VonSwenson on 2013-11-07 13:56:13

Everyone should check out this tremendous article on the growth of Knowshon Moreno. Key Quote (from PFM Himself nonetheless): "He has been a stud for us through the first have of the season," Manning says of Moreno, "and we expect him to be even better in the second half."

I agree with most of it. And, although I agree with most of the points in that article, I don't agree with the idea that guys on the battlefield are something similar to these football players.

The idea that a soldier puts up with that stuff isn't true. In basic training, we were taught to watch each others' backs....because when the shit hits the fan, the ONLY thing you have besides yourself is the guy next to you. We weren't taught to weed people out based on our own behavior...that was up to our superiors...not us. We were taught to support those around us....or we ALL pay for their shortcomings. That'd be a great lesson for these players. So, the idea that warriors (at least the ones in the military) are taught to behave that way is bullshit, from my experience with it. Yes, we were taught to individually be tough...but not to shit on those around us. The only ones we were shitting on were the enemy.

If football players TRULY had to play "for keeps", then they'd know better. But, it's just a kid's game blown up with big kids as the players. That's why they can get away with childish behavior and still find success.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 13:43:27

Mostly we're going to hear plenty of self serving comments from bullshit artists like Jim Burt. This guy talks about how Bill Parcells never would have tolerated a disrespectful teammate. This jackass played eight seasons with Lawrence Taylor who: showed up drunk and high to the facility; slept during team meetings, threatened coaches and teammates; blew assignments continuously by freelancing whenever he pleased.

Earlier, Bill Walsh was praised for the mature atmosphere in his lockerrooms. Charles Haley got his start under Walsh. Haley was also big on threatening his teammates. Also, defecating in front of everybody during a team meeting; walking up to teammates while masturbating; pissing on cars in the team parking lot; hating Steve Young with the intensity of a thousand suns.

Do you think 22 year old versions of those guys are going to be rejected from any lockerroom in the NFL?

Please. They save their blackballs for guys like Kerry Rhodes and Chris Kluwe.

The league does not discourage violence or intimidation. They happen to be quite instrumental in winning football games. Teams might prefer to have a line full of Merlin Olsens, but most coaches will be quite satisfied to settle for some Warren Sapps instead.

I notice Jon Gruden, who weighs in on everything, is notably quiet about Richie Incognito. Probably because he let Sapp run roughshod over that lockerroom the same way saintly Tony Dungy did before him.

Also, I think it's ludicrous, or at the very least quite naive, to look at an entire lifetime (literally) of sociopathic behavior from Incognito, and think he's probably changed now, based on some comments from guys in the locker room who are part of that same culture of sticking up for the bully. Sorry, seen it too many times before, and I've seen 20 years of abhorrent behavior from Incognito to think this is all just fun and games. Sure, this is probably more complex than we realize, and we don't know all the ins and outs, but if you look at who is involved here *and* have any experience with bullying behavior and the macho culture of sports that not only condones it but pushes it, you'd at least get a sense of what's gone on here.

Posted by underdog on 2013-11-07 13:21:00

More on the Incognito/Martin + locker room bullying story, from Grantland's ___. And this piece by Brian Phillips kicks some serious ass, sorry to put it crudely but it does. http://www.grantland.com/story...

Posted by underdog on 2013-11-07 13:17:21

Forced myself to sit through a Chefs game, and I worry less about them beating the Broncos after I saw the game than before.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 13:04:53

Me too. I don' talk to people like that, but some do and they're really just kidding around. I don't think it;s adult behavior but there it is.

Posted by bradley on 2013-11-07 12:57:24

Chadiha: Overlooks the notion that if the Bronco's don't turn the ball over and force KC's offense to score their own points - perhaps with a spy on Charles - what then? If he is love with their offense he doesn't know crap. I wonder if he'll eat crow if we cream these guys...

Posted by denverkewl on 2013-11-07 12:55:59

their defense looks greatagainst most third string QB'splaying their first game

Posted by therealhaikuboy on 2013-11-07 12:52:06

I guess I've chosen my friends more wisely.

Posted by AldenBrown on 2013-11-07 12:50:46

but they still aren't verytalented on offense or moving the ball

Posted by Alaskan on 2013-11-07 12:46:35

How do you know the truth about the Las Vegas trip? Were you there? If you're relying on the Murtha column, Murtha wasn't on the team when that happened. If you want to say that there is conflicting information and we don't know what happened, that's fine. But to assert that it's "false information" and that "it didn't happen that way" is to do the exact same thing that you accuse others of doing: professing certainty over a matter of which you have no knowledge. As for Tannehill, do you think a team's QB might have a vested interest in getting his offensive linemen back? Don't you find it interesting that no one but Tannehill is claiming that Martin and Incognito were best friends? Surely that's something that would have come out at some point in the past week. Indeed, not even Incognito is claiming that, and you would think that would have been the first thing he said. And the long winded rant from Incognito's father clearly shows that the two had had problems for a long time. And while I certainly agree with you that the people of the top bear a lot of the blame for this, I think you go a little too far for when you refer to someone that calls people "half ni**ers" and threatens their families "a complete scapegoat."

Posted by AldenBrown on 2013-11-07 12:43:27

"...And Football is a sport for grown men. Tough men...."

I disagree. It's a sport for big, physically tough athletes. They certainly don't have to be "men", at least not in my definition what separates men from boys. A man should be a mature, unselfish, ethical individual. A man isn't going to slap around a woman. A man isn't going to act like he's a spoiled 12 year old. A man isn't going to use demeaning tactics to other man. Football players have to be none of that, and many aren't.

Like you don't excuse Doug for his comments, I don't excuse these guys for their behavior simply because they're in a "locker room". Players among them do NOT act in such a manner, while achieving much more profitable results from their fellow players. Peyton Manning is one great example. The locker-room theory is a bunch of BS.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 12:39:58

Some people talk like that to their friends. It's sad, but I believe true.

Posted by bradley on 2013-11-07 12:38:07

Florio has a decent piece out about the problems with the Lydon Murtha story, not the least of which is that Murtha hasn't been with the Dolphins since August 2012. Murtha is also obviously being fed information by someone, because he is purporting to write authoritatively about events that he wasn't around to witness (like the Las Vegas trip).

Wow. Despite the overwhelming evidence that suggests Incognito may not be the same idiot he has been in the past and maybe isn't to blame in this situation, Doug's comments and those on this site still find him very much at fault. Not to say he isn't an idiot, he just may not be the same idiot he has been in the past. I will explain.....

Tannehill. Does he have a beef against Martin? Very doubtful. He says Incognito treated Martin like a little brother. That means love, but also tough love. Incognito was given the code red and he was carrying it out to the best of his abilities. Unfortunately he is a bit of an idiot so he is limited in carrying that order out appropriately because those abilities are shallow. The order to toughen up Martin should have never been given to a guy like Incognito AND likely not to any of his teammates for that matter.

That said, sounds to me from the team's comments that Richie liked and cared for Martin. The voicemail, while heinous and grotesque was more idiotic. It was not a REAL threat. He was not putting down his race, like it sounded. It was certainly out of bounds and idiotic but not meant to be threatening. He laughed while leaving it.

And Football is a sport for grown men. Tough men. Can we really say someone was bullied? Clearly no one who would has played on an offense or defensive line would say that when that is EXACTLY the objective of the sport; simply to crush the man in front of you and break his spirit. Maybe harassment would be an appropriate term, but before you blast me, here is my bigger point....

Maybe people need to look closer to the real story: Jeff Ireland is a (insert bad word like Dick or C U Next Tuesday, here). He doesn't belong in his role and hasn't for a long time. Probably Philbin too but this story has been blown out of proportion with regard to blaming Incognito. How about the story that Martin had to pay $15k for the trip he didn't go on? Didn't happen that way. False reporting. Regardless this is a story about the top of the organization. That is the real issue. On top of that, sounds like Martin probably has some personal issues and for Philbin or the Dolphins brass not to listen and try to fix the problem is complete mismanagement o their end. They had an asset in Martin and screwed him up completely. They just aren't smart enough to know how to get what appears to be a very good young man with some emotional deficiencies pointed in the right direction.

Last point - Football locker rooms are not your office or place of work. It is muuuuch different. The rules, what is said, how it is said, is muuuuuch different. Please don't apply those rules to a locker room. Yes there is common decency but again, muuuuuch different in the locker room. Is common decency doing an interview naked completely exposed to make the reporter (man or woman) feel uncomfortable? Hell no, but baseball players, football players, etc all do it, it's common practice. Again, different rules.

My (very long winded point) is not to say that I side with Incognito but it's time for an intelligent site like this one to start pointing the finger at the real problem, not the dude who has been completely scapegoated in the matter.

Posted by Broncologist on 2013-11-07 12:29:55

the thing with KCthey've managed to stay healthyin a wacky year

Posted by therealhaikuboy on 2013-11-07 12:28:06

I can't decide if be is really serious or not. The fact is that KC has had a lot of things go this year that I would contribute to some of their success. The idea that thus luck is going to continue especially seeing as how they are going into the tough part of their season is absurd. Who is to say that things won't actually even out for them and they have as much bad luck the second half as they had good luck the first half?

Posted by IDBronco on 2013-11-07 12:10:33

True, but the voice mails, texts, and Twitter comments are there. So, whatever else comes out, we do know that Incognito called Martin a half-n***er, threatened to shit in his mouth, and threatened his family.

Posted by AldenBrown on 2013-11-07 12:01:23

Karma? (Or luck) This guy's a paid sports journalist?

Posted by underdog on 2013-11-07 12:01:20

Lots of teams, lots of players saying that this wouldn't happen in their team - would be interesting to hear from someone who would disagree with that.

I read the story about the NYGs and Prince (not attempting the surname on my phone).

Having worked with people who were bullied by their boss, its amazing to see the relief when someone else says "yes that was inappropriate and I felt the same". I'm sure Martin would love to hear that now.

Posted by Mike Birtwistle on 2013-11-07 11:57:35

Dolphins HC Joe Philbin said a couple of days ago that after Martin left the team, he met with Martin several times during the next several days (at Martin's home, with family present) and that Martin made no mention of harrassment by any member of the Dolphins during that time. it was almost a week later that Martin began to talk about Incognito.Fact is, we know next to nothing about what happened.

Posted by bradley on 2013-11-07 11:50:49

I'm not so sure it's allegiance with bravado as much as it's just a bunch of over-glamorized, excessively paid, oft under-educated, pandered and selfish individuals. The football side of football is great...the personal side of these guys?....eh, I can live without hearing or reading about it.

I've even heard that Martin wants back on the team. Anyone hear the same?

Fire away.

Posted by John Tomasik on 2013-11-07 11:49:18

I completely agree. I'm honestly a bit horrified when I think back to things I saw in locker rooms growing up. These sorts of things are all but encouraged from the time these guys are young.

Posted by SmileForMeNow on 2013-11-07 11:47:42

Is it really shocking that the players are siding with Incognito? That's exactly what I expected would happen. Indeed, if the players did anything other than side with Incognito and label Martin as a pussy and a traitor, I would be surprised. (Pleasantly surprised, of course, but surprised nonetheless.)