Saturday, August 9, 2008

David Wood vs. Bassam Zawadi: "Does the Evidence Show that Christianity Is True?"

Here's the other debate Bassam and I did at Madinah Educational Center. I've watched some of it. I don't think he offered any significant response to my case for Christianity. I also think that some of his responses simply created additional problems for his position (e.g. Allah deceived people into believing that Jesus had died). But, at the same time, I didn't have a chance to respond to some of his claims. (That's the main difficulty when trying to cover a broad topic in a short period of time--some things go unanswered. I'll have to respond to these issues here on my blog, and Bassam can comment.) This debate, however, is a good introduction to the major issues.

DAVID'S OPENING STATEMENT

BASSAM'S OPENING STATEMENT

REBUTTALS

SHORT REBUTTALS/CONCLUSIONS

Our next debate was "Does the Evidence Show that Islam Is True?" Click here to watch the debate.

33 comments:

Regarding the passage in Hebrews where the author quotes from Jeremiah: obviously the writer of the epistle is writing to an audience who understood Greek; hence, the author of the epistle make a quotation from the LXX, which uses a form of the verb αμελεω AMELEO, meaning "to have no care for, to neglect, be unconcerned" (BDAG)

Another great debate performance. It is amazing that even though he went second you still owned him and further demonstrated this guy is great for Christian debaters. He really shows why Islam is a sinking ship.

One thing this debate did conclusively prove is that Bassam, like Yahya (the cowardly Shia), Nadir, Osama Abdallah, Sami, you name it, is a dishonest liar that doesn't use his arguments consistently since he would get himself buried in monumental problems that he would never be able to refute.

But it was worth having this deceiver exposed and you did a wonderful job of doing it. I also commend you for being able to control yourself in the presence of such a conniver and cheat.

BTW, isn't hilarious that Bassam mentioned scholars who claimed that the statements of individuals like Tacitus, Thallus and Josephus are not conclusive and don't prove anything since they were only reporting what they were being told by Christians, or conveying what was the common belief of the Christians of that time, but still doesn't see how this destroys Islam?

Doesn't this prove that the Christians, at least the majority of them, believed that Jesus was crucified, that darkness fell on the land when he was crucified, and that he came back to life? This is the conclusion and dilemma of Bassam's argument, one which proved your case, David.

And why didn't they mention that certain Christians denied that Jesus was crucified and only believed he was a prophet? The answer is obvious.

So thank Bassam for helping your case by establishing that the historians of that time reported that the Christians of the first century believed in the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of their Lord, a belief that destroys Muhammad's credibility and his mishmash book which he passed off as revelation.

David, concerning Mo praising the Torah here is what I found on a Muslim forum. This is a response by a Muslim scholar to Bassam's lies and distortions:

Assalam Alaikum

I am sorry that I did not answer you any sooner. When I saw your question in the beginning and I found the brothers answering you, I did not answer because you posted your question originally by saying: “For Dr. Basyouni or anyone else who can help” and since someone answered you with the right answer I did not see any need for me to further comment. Anyway, what we have here is the following:

1- Is hadeeth Ibn Umar authentic and who narrated it?

You have answered the latter part already as it is narrated by Abee Dawood. It is a sound hadeeth as I mentioned in the class. Al-Albaanee said it is Hasan as one of the brothers mentioned. Ibn Hajar, in “Fath Al-Baaree”, mentioned the hadeeth without criticizing it. His method in this book is that, if he mentions any hadeeth, it is sound unless he states otherwise, as it is well-known. If someone thinks it is weak he needs to prove that and not to say: “It is very likely to be weak” using as a reason: ”The reason why I stated this is because the same event is recorded in many other authentic narrations, yet none of them mention anything about the Prophet (peace be upon him) bringing the cushion and uttering the statement regarding the Torah!” Such a person cannot be familiar with the science of hadeeth, and that is very dangerous to have such attitude. Anyhow, if someone thinks it is weak, so let it be his opinion.

2- Did Al-Bukhaaree say that the Tahreef happened to the meaning and not the text? Yes, this is well known and you can see that in Saheeh al-Bukhaaree in the Book of Tawheed 97, chapter 55 and read what Ibn Hajar comments.

3- Did Ibn Taymiyyah adopt Al-Bukhaaree’s opinion? No, but he defended him and supported his view. However, he believes that some change happened to it but that there must be one copy remaining unchanged. That is different from what Al-Bukhaaree said.

4- Where Did Ibn Taymiyyah say that and where did he used this hadeeth and other evidence to support Al-Bukhaaree’s opinion? It was mentioned by Ibn Al-Qayyim in Igathat Al-Lahfan 2:351, and I’ll quote him in Arabic in the end. And Br. Maalik mentioned other quotes as well, but the one you are looking for is what Ibn Al-Qayyim said and it is the one I used in the class. One more thing, remember what we said in the class that Ibn Al-Qayyim’s opinion is the strongest one, not the extreme positions of Ibn Hazm or Al-Bukhaaree.

So David, not only has Shamoun exposed Bassam- even though Bassam thinks he has actually responded to his night mare :-)- which you can find here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_mhd_torah.htm

So has this Muslim scholar!

As I said your debate demonstrated that Bassam is a liar. He can't help himself since this is the symptom which all Muslims who follow Mo faithfully suffer from.

BTW, the Muslim scholar's name who (indirectly) exposed Bassam as a conniver and liar for discrediting the hadith from Abu Dawud where Mo praised the Torah is Dr. Waleed Basyouni and his email is waleedaou@yahoo.com

I feel the most signficant point David makes here is that Bassam cannot offer a sufficent alternative explanation that explains the beliefs of early christians other than the hypothesis which David gave. Simply saying "God did it that way (in this case through deception)" can be used with any event.

However the problem i'm having is Christians accept the "God did it" explanation in general aslong as the Bible says he did it. Thus Bassam is only doing the same but with the Quran.

When we enter into the realm of theology what gives ones claim of "God did it that way" anymore credibility than another? After all these are faith based beliefs.

Therefore since saying "God did it" does atleast explain the data, one creates a new objection that that Allah is morally flawed. However these are two distinct issues.

Even if I agree that Allah is directly responsible for creating Christianity, there could be several causes for Allah doing this that may not nessacerily mean Allah is evil or even contradictory.

Similarly I could argue that YHVH created polytheism by pointing out according to Deut 13 he raised up and sent false prophets inorder to to test the love and committment of his people, Israel. Thus YHVH is directly responsible for the false belief system of his people and then punishes them for it when he sent to them the false prophet(s)!

Just as a concluding factor my friend sam shamoun does not make this objection either. In his debate with Shabir Ally he acknowledged (when asked about surah 4:157) that sometimes we humans do not understand the ultimate will of God but that he may have reasons for doing what he does, Sam implied he wouldn't use this as an argument agaist Islam, since similar difficulties exist in Christianity.

Do you really believe what you just said? Think about this again. Jesus spent ~30 years preaching (since he started at birth). He won a number of dedicated followers. Then Allah came in and tricked everyone (including Jesus' dedicated Muslim followers) into believing a lie. These followers then tied Jesus' death in with Isaiah 53, which said that Jesus' death was for the sins of the world. They then went to their deaths proclaiming a false message, all because God deceived them.

Now think about the implications here. God deceives even people who do their best to follow Him and to believe in His messengers. Well, is anyone safe then? If this theology is correct, perhaps God sent Muhammad to deceive the Arabs. Perhaps He sent Joseph Smith to deceive people.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how we have this problem in Christianity.

>> However the problem i'm having is Christians accept the "God did it" explanation in general aslong as the Bible says he did it. Thus Bassam is only doing the same but with the Quran.

If the NT acknowledges Moses as one of the greatest prophets of God to whom revelation was given and then goes on to say that God has deceived all the people who sincerely listened/followed Moses, that would be ridiculous. If God is a deceiver of all the people who sincerely listen to His true prophets, what is the guarantee that it is not the same deception that is going on this time too?

>> When we enter into the realm of theology what gives ones claim of "God did it that way" anymore credibility than another? After all these are faith based beliefs.

God has given revelation to Moses and the message is consistently affirmed by prophets (including Jesus) and there is a continuity. Jesus heralded the New covenant, but he did so while fully affirming and claiming fulfillment of the prophets/scriptures. But to claim that God cheated all those who sincerely listened/followed the previous prophets would be ridiculous. The continuity/conformity along with a host of other logical, historical, philosophical, moral, spiritual reasons give credibility to true prophets over false prophets. It is not just blind faith going against common-sense/evidence/morality/Gods commandments etc. Through the history of God's revelation, God has been consistently telling how to differentiate a false prophet from a true prophet (no where it says to identify a true/false prophet through blind assumptions/faith)

>> I could argue that YHVH created polytheism by pointing out according to Deut 13 he raised up and sent false prophets inorder to to test the love and committment of his people, Israel

God may use pre-existing culpable evil for a purpose like this, but God Himself does not deceive all those who sincerely listened/followed to true prophets.

I am going to have to agree with David here since it is one thing to say Allah deceived the unbelieving Jews. It is another thing altogether to say that Jesus' own followers were tricked into thinking Jesus was crucified, died and then raised back to life, and then going throughout the world preaching this lie.

Furthermore, Allah supposedly promised to back up and empower Christ's followers over against their enemies till the day of resurrection. See surahs 3:55 and 61:14. Yet as we all know the followers of Jesus who triumphed in the first century, and whose message widely spread everywhere and has become dominant over all other competing messages until now, were not Muslims who believed Jesus was merely a prophet who did not die on the cross. The ones who prevailed were apostles like Paul who taught the divinity of Christ, and his death and resurrection.

And this is where Bassam humiliated himself but couldn't see it since, as I have said, he is dealing with issues that are simply beyond his intellectual capacity to comprehend. By attacking Paul and arguing that there was some other version of Christianity that Paul alludes to that may have been valid Bassam pretty much attacked the credibility his god and proved that Wood was right concerning Allah being a deceiver as well as a failure.

Allah failed to thwart the message of Paul and could not make the teachings of Jesus' true followers triumph over Paul's perversion of Jesus' true message. What a pathetic, miserable god. Who could or would even want to believe in such a lying, conniving weakling? Sadly, people like Bassam want to believe since they do not care for truth and are only interested in defending a false prophet and a weak, pathetic god .

Now returning back to the issue of deception, it is one thing to say that God would give his unbelieving people the desires of their wicked hearts by raising up false prophets for them since they kept spurning the true prophets over and over again. It is completely different, however, to say that God deceives his sincere followers who do want to believe in him. Why would God want to deceive these people? Why would he trick them into believing that Jesus died on the cross when he didn't? What is the benefit in doing this to them, especially if he claims to be an all-loving Being who desires people to know the truth and to be saved, just like the Holy Bible teaches:

"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:1-4

As I said, David pretty much flattened Bassam in this debate as well, but the tragedy is that Bassam can't see it since he severely lacks basic comprehension and is definitely not on the same intellectual level of David.

Ben - great exposition of the fact that Muslim apologists really do get tied up in knots when they try to use revisionist early Church history to back up their claims.

It mystifies me how they can say with a straight face that the Bible is corrupt - even when the Qur'an says otherwise. The closest I have seen to an accusation of corruption is 'woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!' Notice this verse only talks about those corrupting the text to profit financially - no grand conspiracy theory here!

Secondly even if they could twist out of this one, how in the world do they account for the Qur'anic statements that you have pointed out?

"Now think about the implications here. God deceives even people who do their best to follow Him and to believe in His messengers. Well, is anyone safe then? If this theology is correct, perhaps God sent Muhammad to deceive the Arabs. Perhaps He sent Joseph Smith to deceive people.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how we have this problem in Christianity."

Sunil said:

"God may use pre-existing culpable evil for a purpose like this, but God Himself does not deceive all those who sincerely listened/followed to true prophets."

Ben said:

"Now returning back to the issue of deception, it is one thing to say that God would give his unbelieving people the desires of their wicked hearts by raising up false prophets for them since they kept spurning the true prophets over and over again. It is completely different, however, to say that God deceives his sincere followers who do want to believe in him. Why would God want to deceive these people? Why would he trick them into believing that Jesus died on the cross when he didn't? What is the benefit in doing this to them, especially if he claims to be an all-loving Being who desires people to know the truth and to be saved"

All three of you guys have more or less stated the same point in several ways. I believe this is where our disagreement is:

1) How can God use deception as a punishment (for idoltary, unbelief, sin etc)? How do two wrongs make a right? Why would God reduce himself into using such tactics that sinful men use?

2) Furthermore who says that Deut 13 is an example of what u guys argue is acceptable? Deut 13 says the Lord was TESTING them to know whether they loved him more than anything else, obviously as David pointed out God is all knowing (even later on in Deut he predicts there idoltary) thus God already knows the answer to this riddle, and yet still raises up false prophets to mislead sinners even further! (I don't know how that is defensible)

>> How can God use deception as a punishment (for idoltary, unbelief, sin etc)? How do two wrongs make a right? Why would God reduce himself into using such tactics that sinful men use?

If a person is arrogant for example and refuses to turn from evil ways and is culpable or liable for punishment in the eyes of God, God can allow the persons arrogance to lead to his down fall. There should be nothing wrong in that. (that would be a ‘lessons learned’ for others as well).

>> .. as David pointed out God is all knowing (even later on in Deut he predicts there idoltary) thus God already knows the answer to this riddle ..

Are you suggesting (by extension) that God should straight away send people to Heaven or not (without even letting people spend their life on earth) as He already knows the future of who will have the salvation/redemption to enter Heaven? God works in time and God speaks in "discovery terms" (in human terms as He reveals Himself to and through people in time/history), it does not mean that God Himself does know before hand, the outcome. It is for the strengthening and purification of the faith of God's people so they might learn and grow through the test. God tests the people so that the people will know/see what is in their own hearts (not for His own ‘discovery’).

>> yet still raises up false prophets to mislead sinners even further!

God did not create false prophets out of innocent people who are genuine followers of God and His true messengers/prophets. They were false prophets already. God did not mislead anyone into the trap of the false prophets. He just demonstrated/showed them the evil that is already there in their hearts.

So let's get Dk's point straight. Yahweh is using deception in Deut. 13 because he is testing his people in order to expose their hearts even though he has told them beforehand that this will happen, that false prophets will come to deceive them away from the truth and that they shouldn't listen to them?

I think where Dk is confused is the language of Scripture. God takes responsibility anc often speaks of being the cause of something even though he wasn't the one who did that specific thing.

Case in point. God tells Satan in Job 2:3 that the devil moved God against Job even though it was Satan who actually did so.

So why does God take responsibility? Because Satan couldn't move against Job unless God first permitted it.

If you want to get a further idea of how God works and that he himself doesn't deceive anyone simply read 2 Thessalonians 2 where Paul speaks of the man of lawlessness who comes and performs miracles in the power of Satan. It then says that God sent those who refused to embrace the truth a powerful delusion so that they would continue believing a lie.

In context, the delusion that God sends is the man of lawlessness and the miracles he performs. Now who actually performed the miracles? Satan through this man. Then why does God take credit for Satan's work of deception? Because God has to give Satan permission to do what he does, otherwise he wouldn't be able to.

Now whom is God allowing Satan to deceive? Those who love God and want the truth? No, rather those who hate God and refuse to embrace the truth.

And who says that God-haters and persistent rebels deserve to hear the truth when all they do is spurn it everytime it is offered to them?

Sorry I don't see your point, Ben said i'm comparing apples an oranges, but God actually decides who will be a sincere follower of himself via picking who he regenerates. Thus God is legally entitled to punish (thru deception or some other means) anyone who he purposely hasn't changed to make a follower of himself. How is this comparing apples and oranges?

In other words, Allah can do this(deception) at step 2 (after the believer has believed), but Jehovah does this at step 1 (before the believer has believed, but then he decides who believes aswell).

So since Jehovah (similar to Allah) is completely and ultimately repsonsible for whom is deceived and whom is believer, what is the difference? a "timeframe" as u guys suggest? I don't find that convincing.

dk - it's not so much about "time frame" as it is about choice. If someone chooses not to believe then they are allowed to descend further into that deception - this is what the Bible means when it says God "sends them a delusion".

In the Qur'an, people don't have that choice - they are deceived before they even make that decision.

Dk, what I find less convincing is your argument and desperation to make Jehovah comparable to Allah, thereby comparing apples and oranges once again.

So let me walk you through this. By mentioning regeneration you basically shot yourself in the foot since regeneration presupposes that, at least as far as the Bible is concerned, man is born depraved, his nature is tainted by sin and is born a rebel who hates God and his truth.

So, yes, according to a Biblical worldview, God is under no moral obligation to give them truth but to continue granting them the desires of their hearts by sending them false prophets to tickle their itchy ears.

HOWEVER, God hasn't simply hand them over right away but has made his existence known to them, leaving them with no excuse. But instead of responding to the revelation they refuse to accept, thereby vindicating God's judgment against them to hand them over to their evil desires. See Romans 1:18-32

Now can you show how this is comparable to Islamic theology and to Allah deceiving Jesus' followers into thinking their Lord was crucified and then empowering them to spread this message?

Let me guess. You are now going to change the topic to God's sovereignty and human free will? In case you do, that is another topic and so I advise you to start a different thread so as to not to distract from the issue at hand, which is Allah foisting Christianity on the world by his lies and deceptions.

Since i'm not changing the topic, the topic is: "under what circumstances can God deceive a person(s)" and the answer from u guys once again is he can't do it AFTER the person has become a "sincere believer" then your response is reduced to a "timeframe" answer. but further more Jehovah then actually decides who will be a sincere follower of himself. Furthermore God can have "sincere followers" who are actually not elect, and thus he can still deceive these followers (e.g. John 6 and John 8).

Plus you just conceded the fact that all men are born depraved and Jehovah is under no obligation to tell them the truth and regenerate them. Which again proves what I said that you guys are accepting step 1 and not step 2.

Ben, so please stop trying to pretend that your view of Jehovah is morally superior to Allah and then escape defending this by telling me to leave the thread.

I am not arguing the views are "identical", you can see my second post for my objections that still haven't been answered:

"1) How can God use deception as a punishment (for idoltary, unbelief, sin etc)? How do two wrongs make a right? Why would God reduce himself into using such tactics that sinful men use?"

round and round dk goes, when will he stop nobody knows. Dk, you are starting to sound like a Muslim apologist so let again walk you through this with the hopes that you will give up your desperate attempts of trying to liken Yahweh's acts to Allah.

Firs, quote where I said Yahweh deceives people. Your appeal to Deut. 13 doesn't do since a) Yahweh tells them beforehand not believe in prophets and dreamers who accurately foretell events and yet contradict his Law, and b) the reason he permits this is to demonstrate his justice in condemning those who refuse to follow his instructions but choose to turn aside to other gods.

Second, since you can see that the Scriptures teach that man is depraved and that God is therefore under no obligation to regenerate anyone, in what way is this similar to what the Quran teaches that Allah deceived the believers into believing a lie? Can you quote a Biblical text where Yahweh takes believes and hands them over to a lie, to deceit? If you can then you have a case, but until then you are blowing smoke and desperate.

Third, make sure that you actually pay attention before making your comments since I clearly said that, despite man's rebellion and hatred of God, God has still taken the initiative to make his existence known to them. Now please explain how is it wrong or deceitful for God to justly hand such rebellion sinners over to the desire of the hearts when they refuse to acknowledge the truth that he has plainly made known to them? How is it immoral for God to give them what they want, specifically false prophets or teachers who say exactly what the people want them to say, when they reject and kill the true prophets who speak out against their sin and wickedness?

And once, instead of running from my question please show me how this is comparable to what Allah did to Jesus' followers whom the Quran says were Muslims?

Finally, since you are obviously not a Christian on what moral grounds do you condemn biblical morality? What is your standard, what is your authority, which leads you to conclude that what God does in the Bible is the same as what Allah does? Don't try to appeal to the Bible since we have just shown that you are dead wromng as far as the Biblical witness is concerned since you have grossly misunderstood it and perhaps event distorted its teaching, i.e. your gross distortion of Deut. 13 is a case in point.

And please where you derive your morality from so we can examine it to see if your moral code is an absolute standard as opposed to a subjective one. Because if it is subjective then be frank and tell us so we can kindly tell you to keep your subjectivism to yourself since we could care less for your opinion.

And lest you try to commit the fallacy of tu ququoe by saying we are doing the same thing our criticism of the Quran is not based on our subjective feelings but on the Biblical teaching. We have showed that according to the Bible, a) God is not deceiving anyone, and b) God is permitting unbelievers to be deceived by other agents since this is the just response to their persistent rebellion and spurning of God's truth. If they don't want the truth then God gives them what they want, the lie by allowing false prophets like Muhammad to deceive them.

Moreover, we used the Bible against the Quran since the Muslim book also presupposes Biblical morality in that it often appeals to the witness of the Bible and claims that the Biblical God is the same God of Muhammad. We are therefore within our right to criticize its concept of God.

So Dk stop pretending that you are saying something of substance, since you are not, and stop pretending that you have shown that Yahweh isn't morally superior to Allah, since you are failing pitifully on this point.

And let me repeat this so you don't run away from answering this as well. Please provide us with the standard that you use to condemn the Biblical teaching so we can address it. Otherwise stop pretending that our criticism of the Quran can be turned against the Holy Bible, since it cannot.

I hope you will have something of substance to say since I am getting tired of your running around in a circle and repeating yourself. Repeating something more than once doesn't make it true so stop pretending it does.

"Your appeal to Deut. 13 doesn't do since a) Yahweh tells them beforehand not believe in prophets and dreamers who accurately foretell events and yet contradict his Law",and b) THE REASON HE PERMITS THIS IS to demonstrate his justice in condemning those who refuse to follow his instructions but choose to turn aside to other gods."

Ben please no eisegesis of the "permission" concept in the text, infact why don't you quote where Deut mentions that Jehovah is permitting supernatural agents to "test" these people inorder to "learn" whether Israel love Jehovah. Since clearly the test is for Jehovah to learn whether they love him, I must ask where in this text are you reading he is testing them inorder to be Just and "condemn them"? Also you are merely begging the question since you appeal to other parts of the Bible as examples of how God deceives through agents, but that assumes that God uses the same stragedy everytime. And your reasoning for interpreting these cases like this? Because otherwise we would have internal inconsistancies, which is ALSO begging the question! That is twice in one round.

So since similar to Ezekiel 14:1-10God claims direct responsibility for the deception, you are offering only one intepretation. As a sidenote why don't you show me where the author(s) of deut even acknowledge they believe in satan/demons, would love to see it.

"Can you quote a Biblical text where Yahweh takes believes and hands them over to a lie, to deceit? If you can then you have a case, but until then you are blowing smoke and desperate."

"And once, instead of running from my question please show me how this is comparable to what Allah did to Jesus' followers whom the Quran says were Muslims?"

What I said was that both Allah and Jehovah are the ultimate cause of who believes and disbelieves, and who is deceived/punished and who receives mercy/grace. Your continous response of repeating the same "timeframe" answer is meaningless, in both faiths God is the ultimate cause of these effects. I argued that Islam and Christianity had similar views (which is true) not identical views.

Now let us examine your case here for the moral superiority of Jehovah:

1) God made his existance known to Israelites(even those with false beliefs)

2) God made his truth known to Israelites (including those with false beliefs)

3) Israelites with false beliefs despite the evidence given to them still reject and/or kill prophets who give Gods message

4) Israelites with false beliefs since they don't want to believe but they only desire to hear false beliefs, God is giving them what they want.

Now according to you Ben, the Quran CONFIRMS all of these facts found in the Bible:

"Moreover, we used the Bible against the Quran since the Muslim book also presupposes Biblical morality in that it often appeals to the witness of the Bible and claims that the Biblical God is the same God of Muhammad."

Since you asked me to show you how this is similiar to Allah, not only is it similar to Allah, but this is precisely what Allah did according to the Quran since he confirms all of this.

Lastly Ben, since I have nothing of "substance" to say I take it you won't be attempting to refute anything I have said.

Not only does dk-man's circle get bigger his arguments go from bad to worse. This what happens when amateurs think they know how to exegesis, all the while doing eisegesis.

Moreover, the topic has now shifted from God's knowledge to the consistency of the Bible to the existence of demons, clear signs indicating that DK get buried by my argumentation and couldn't handle it so he decided to bring up red herrings.

But let me educate the lad. First, the reason why I know that the testing of Deuteronomy 13 is not for God to learn anything (which simply shows how ignorant you are concerning how the Bible) is because of what the book goes on to say:

"The LORD said to Moses, 'Now the day of your death is near. Call Joshua and present yourselves at the Tent of Meeting, where I will commission him.' So Moses and Joshua came and presented themselves at the Tent of Meeting. Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent. And the LORD said to Moses: 'You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, "Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?" And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods. Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me AGAINST THEM. When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their forefathers, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant. And when many disasters and difficulties come upon them, this song will testify AGAINST THEM, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath.' So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites. The LORD gave this command to Joshua son of Nun: 'Be strong and courageous, for you will bring the Israelites into the land I promised them on oath, and I myself will be with you.' After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD : 'Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness AGAINST YOU. For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify AGAINST THEM. For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made.'" Deuteronomy 31:14-29

God accurately foretells the apostasy of the people and how he will punish them for it, which proves that Yahweh wasn't testing them in order to learn anything but to prove that they are a faithless people who deserve to be judged. So much for your pathetic counter-argument.

Now that that one of your pathetic points has been refuted let me refute your second pathetic point. It is amazing that you mention Ezekiel 14 since this actually proves my point. I had said that the Bible often attributes actions of others to God since these other entities cannot carry out their specific acts unless God permits them. Ezekiel 14 is a case in point:

"Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 'Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? Therefore speak to them and tell them, "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself IN KEEPING WITH HIS GREAT IDOLATRY. I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols."' Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices! When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD. And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. They will bear THEIR GUILT—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. Then the people of Israel WILL NO LONGER STRAY FROM ME, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' " Ezekiel 14:1-11

Here it says that Yahweh deceived or enticed the prophet into deceiving or enticing the people, an obvious reference to a false prophet.

Several points to glean from this passage, all of which went over dk's head which doesn't surprise me. First, notice that the people that are being deceived are those who reject Yahweh's true prophets and worship idols.

Second, the word for deceive is pathath and appears in another text which explains how Yahweh deceived the false prophet:

"And Micaiah said, ‘Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and the LORD said, "Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?" And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, "I will entice him." And the LORD said to him, "By what means?" And he said, "I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." And he said, "You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so." Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.’" 1 Kings 22:19-23

Here we see that the one who actually deceived the lying prophets was a lying spirit whom Yahweh permitted to go forth and inspire the false prophets. This proves the point I have been making all along but which Dk has been unable to refute or understand, that Yahweh takes responsibility for the actions of others, just like he did in Job 2:3, since they cannot act unless he permits it.

This further proves that Yahweh is giving people over to the desires of their hearts such as allowing false prophets to deceive them and tell them what they want to hear since they don't want to listen to the true prophets of God.

Finally, notice how in all these examples Yahweh even tells the people that they are being deceived by false prophets and lying spirits and they still refuse to repent and believe!

Since you mentioned Shamoun then please make sure you read his article which crushes your pathetic points and see how he addresses Ezekiel 14: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/does_god_deceive.htm

And this is UNLIKE what Allah does or did to the apostles of Christ.

You then get so desperate and asked me to show you where does Deuteronomy mention demons.

In your ignorance and arrogance you must have forgotten the following text:

"They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. They sacrificed to DEMONS, which are not God— gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear." Deuteronomy 32:16-17

You see what happens when you think you know what you're talking about? You get exposed and humiliated. Not only that but start another thread so I can further educate you on what the word ha nachash or the serpent of Genesis 3 would have meant in light of the ancient near east and within its historical context, thereby proving that he was a spirit being and not simply an animal. I would further enlighten you on the meaning of the phrase sons of belial which is used in Deuteronomy 13:13 and the sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6:2-4, as well as in the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls versions of Deuteronomy 32:8-9, and demonstrate that this again shows the awareness of the author of Deuteronomy of evil rebellious spirits whose sole purpose was to lead God's people and humanity in general astray.

As a sidenote you alluded to authors of Deut. which means that you subscribe to the docmentary hyptheis, a theory which has long been destroyed, but that is typical of your ilk, to stubbornly cling to outlandish theories. Yet since you do describe to this lie then this means that you believe that Deuteronomy was collated or reached its final form sometime after the exile, a view which only would help strengthen my case that the the people who were collating or editing these texts did know of demons. But that is for another thread.

You continue to show your ignorance and dishonesty, as well as your willingness to twist a person's point by claiming that since I stated that the Quran confirms all of these facts of the Bible that this therefore proves Allah is identical with Yahweh since he is the one who did all of these things that the Bible attributes to Yahweh. Now I must say that you are a dishonest and a liar since you know full well that that is precisely our argument against the Quran, specifically that even though it confirms the Bible it goes against its teaching and contradicts it. Using your pathetic logic this means that Allah must also be a father to Israel, that Allah appeared as a man to some of the patriarchs and prophets. and that Jesus is Allah incarnate, all of which the Quran denies.

But I understand why you were so desperate to use such a pathetic argument, because you got refuted by my points and you had absolutely no response to them.

You conveniently didn't answer my questions where you derived your morality from and I am not surprised since you know what would happen if you did try to answer, specifically that you would only get further exposed for being being a pseudo-intellect trying to pass himself off as a Bible exegete.

Dk, ever considered embracing Islam since the way you argue and reason you would make a great Muslim?

Now do us all a favor and move on to something else since we are getting rather bored with your pathetic attempts of likening Yahweh to Allah, unless you can guarantee that you will be able to provide some substance to your points for once. I highly doubt that.

"Now do us all a favor and move on to something else since we are getting rather bored with your pathetic attempts of likening Yahweh to Allah, unless you can guarantee that you will be able to provide some substance to your points for once. I highly doubt that."

Since you failed to refute anything or answer anything I had said, I believe I would refer you to take your own advise. Now apart from all the ad-homs let us see if you actually addressed anything I said:

"God accurately foretells the apostasy of the people and how he will punish them for it, which proves that Yahweh wasn't testing them in order to learn anything but to prove that they are a faithless people who deserve to be judged. So much for your pathetic counter-argument."

Now I want to thankyou for refuting your own Bible since you are in direct contradiction with the reason YHVH tests his people with false prophets:

"you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you TO FIND OUT IF YOU LOVE THE LORD GOD WITH all your heart and with all your soul." Deut 13:3 NASB

As I stated you couldn't prove anything from the text so you went elsewhere, and by going elsewhere the only thing you've manage to show is God already knows the answer which falsifies this passage, or it actually proves Deut has more than one author who have directly contradicted themselves.

"Several points to glean from this passage, all of which went over dk's head which doesn't surprise me. First, notice that the people that are being deceived are those who reject Yahweh's true prophets and worship idols."

Since I never argued other wise this is nothing but a strawman.

"Second, the word for deceive is pathath and appears in another text which explains how Yahweh deceived the false prophet:...

Here we see that the one who actually deceived the lying prophets was a lying spirit whom Yahweh permitted to go forth and inspire the false prophets. This proves the point I have been making all along but which Dk has been unable to refute or understand, that Yahweh takes responsibility for the actions of others, just like he did in Job 2:3, since they cannot act unless he permits it."

The only thing you have manage to prove once again is your inability to address what I have said. I never said the Bible DOES NOT have Jehovah using agents, or that Jehovah claims direct responsibility even when others are doing the actions. What I said was you assume this is the case in Ezekiel 14 and Deut 13 AND THAT IS is begging the question. Obviously you cannot address this fact so you merely repeat yourself.

"You then get so desperate and asked me to show you where does Deuteronomy mention demons.

In your ignorance and arrogance you must have forgotten the following text:

"They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. They sacrificed to DEMONS, which are not God— gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear." Deuteronomy 32:16-17"

Ben thankyou for proving nothing. I asked you in the context of God granting permission to supernatural agents to show me the author(s) of Deut were aware of the concept of Satan and Demons and you give me a text proving that "demons" were actually referring to stone idols, lol, truely funny, Ben your anachronistic fallacies are further exposed here:

http://www.cresourcei.org/demonsot.html

"Now I must say that you are a dishonest and a liar since you know full well that that is precisely our argument against the Quran, specifically that even though it confirms the Bible it goes against its teaching and contradicts it."

Who says the Bible it contradicts it? It only contradicts certain passages that teach the eternal security of the believer. However let us see whether a believer can leave the faith:

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons," 1 Timothy 4:1 NASB

"The Spirit says clearly that in later times some believers will desert the Christian faith. They will follow spirits that deceive, and they will believe the teachings of demons." 1 Timothy 4:1 God's Word Translation

As you can see not only can a believer leave the faith but the probable cause is because of demons, which according to Ben cannot act without the permission of Jehovah:

"In context, the delusion that God sends is the man of lawlessness and the miracles he performs. Now who actually performed the miracles? Satan through this man. Then why does God take credit for Satan's work of deception? Because God has to give Satan permission to do what he does, otherwise he wouldn't be able to."

This is direct proof postive that Christian believers can fall prey to spirits seducing them into doctrines of devils who inturn are given permission by God.

"Dk, ever considered embracing Islam since the way you argue and reason you would make a great Muslim?"

Is that so Ben? Ben as I said earlier you are more closer to the Islamic belief system that I will ever be:

"both Allah and Jehovah are the ultimate cause of who believes and disbelieves, and who is deceived/punished and who receives mercy/grace. Your continous response of repeating the same "timeframe" answer is meaningless, in both faiths God is the ultimate cause of these effects. I argued that Islam and Christianity had similar views (which is true) not identical views. "

So Ben since you've been publically humiliated by me and you have no substance, and you can't do biblical exegesis and you're a desperate amateur a "pseudo-intellectual" lol, haha, all at the same time you keep needing to respond to me, maybe you can address the fact that you can't answer anything, Ben take a hike. Ben you are finished, stop trying to copy Sam Shamoun and come up with your arguments. And not suprizingly if you attempt to quote elsewhere in Timothy to disprove what I just quoted, I will crush you.

Dk, now I am more convinced you are a Muslim since you not only have demonstrated your biblical illiteracy but proven you can't stay on topic but need to switch subjects once you have been crushed.

The topic has shifted from Yahweh and deception to Yahweh's knowledge which I knew it would once I buried you.

But since I won't allow for liars like yourself to get away with it let me further nail you and expose you for the fraud you really are.

When I go to the very same book of Deuteronomy to show why you are an ignoramus concerning Deut 13 you claim that I am contradicted verse 3. No, I am contradicting your misreading and ignorance of how the Bible writers speak of God.

Since Deut. 31 clearly tells us that God knows in advance how his people will turn out this means that the same author is employing anthropomorphic language at this point (I know that this word is beyond your comprehension), much like he does all through his book:

"The Rock who fathered you, you proceeded to forget, and you began to leave God out of memory, the One bringing you forth with childbirth pains." Deuteronomy 32:18

Yahweh literally gave birth to the entire nation in labor pains just like he tested them to literally know who loved him or not. :-)

I could give more examples but this should suffice for those who are literate.

Moreover, the same chapter of Deut 13 also says:

"It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and worship other gods' (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again." Deut. 13:4-11

This again confirms my point that Yahweh's reason for allowing false prophets to mislead his covenant people is to expose their wicked hearts and demonstrate why they deserve to die. It also serves the purpose of teaching them the consequences of their rebellion.

Yet this is typical of clowns like yourself. No matter what I quote you will simply raise the canard of the Bible is not consistent or that it's authors cannot use such language. So why not simply admit that you won't accept any statement I bring since you will try to poo-poo it by your lame appeal to errancy and assumption of how the Bible writers can and cannot speak of God?

And I knew you were going to squirm from my explanation from Ezekiel 14 so I was already prepared to further humiliate you. Here goes, this time from the very previous chapter itself:

"The word of the LORD came to me: 'Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: "Hear the word of the LORD!" This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! Your prophets, O Israel, are like jackals among ruins. You have not gone up to the breaks in the wall to repair it for the house of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the LORD. Their visions are false and their divinations a lie. They say, "The LORD declares," when the LORD has not sent them; yet they expect their words to be fulfilled. Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, "The LORD declares," though I have not spoken? Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD. My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD... Now, son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people who prophesy out of their own imagination. Prophesy against them and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the women who sew magic charms on all their wrists and make veils of various lengths for their heads in order to ensnare people. Will you ensnare the lives of my people but preserve your own? You have profaned me among my people for a few handfuls of barley and scraps of bread. By lying to my people, who listen to lies, you have killed those who should not have died and have spared those who should not live." Ezekiel 13:1-9, 17-19

Since the same book in the very previous chapter says Yahweh didn't speak to these false prophets, how then can could he then say that he deceived them? Very simply, by assuming that the author of Ezekiel was familiar with OT theology he would have known that Yahweh often takes credit for acts committed by others, such as taking credit for destroying Jerusalem even though it was the King of Babylon who did it.

But let me guess, since I just slammed you again you're going to simply repeat your point (like a good Muslim) that the Bible is not consistent, or that the individual book itself is not consistent.

And let me once again refute your lies since you claim:

"Ben thankyou for proving nothing. I asked you in the context of God granting permission to supernatural agents to show me the author(s) of Deut were aware of the concept of Satan and Demons and you give me a text proving that "demons" were actually referring to stone idols, lol, truely funny, Ben your anachronistic fallacies are further exposed here:"

But that is not what you said:

"So since similar to Ezekiel 14:1-10 God claims direct responsibility for the deception, you are offering only one intepretation. As a sidenote why don't you show me where the author(s) of deut even acknowledge they believe in satan/demons, would love to see it.

You asked me to show where the author referred to demons and I demonstrated where he referred to them. So you got caught in your filthy lie.

Much like the Quran you too can't help contradict yourself and lie.

Furthermore, in your stupidity you thought your link would refute me but actually proves my point. But being illiterate you can't see how so let me walk you through it:

"In any case, a closer look at the word שׁד (seed) in Hebrew emphasizes that it refers in a negative way to Canaanite idols and deities. Actually, the term שׁד (seed, "demons") does not even originate in Hebrew. It is a loanword from Assyria, from the Assyrian word šêdu. This word in Assyrian refers to the mythological creatures that were supposed to guard the sphinx-colossus of Asshur, the primary deity of the Assyrians (in Western mythology they are called griffons). The word in Hebrew, then, originally referred to mythological creatures associated with Assyrian deities. The very purpose of using the term, and paralleling them with other terms for pagan idols and deities, seems to be to emphasize that the pagan deities are not something to fear because they are not really gods at all. In Hebrew thought, that is equivalent to saying that they do not exist, or have no power or importance of which to fear.... So, it can be concluded that the Hebrew termשׁד (seed) is a loanword from the mythology of the surrounding peoples. Originally, it referred to the mythological creatures of Canaanite and Assyrian religion that were representations of various gods. In biblical usage, it becomes synonymous with "idol," a pejorative way to refer to Canaanite deities."

Your source admits that the reference is a loanword from Assyria and that it is used in reference to the Canaanite deities, all of which proves my case but now I realize I need to further educate you since all you can do is link to articles thinking they prove your point.

And this is precisely why I mentioned understanding words such as ha nachash in light of its HISTORICAL and CULTURAL context (I capitalized these words since I know illiterates like you have a hard time reading and understanding) since this proves that the Hebrews were aware of evil spirits or demons. Had you bothered to read Deuteronomy 4:19 and 32:8-9 (LXX/DSS) you would have known that the Hebrews or at least the author believed that the nations were assigned to the sons of God, those who influenced the nations away from the worship of Yahweh. And since you appeal to links, two can play that game. Here is a scholar who actually delves into the Ancient Near Eastern texts to help examine the significance of these OT passages which refutes your source:

So my point still stands and I have further proven that you are nothing more than an illiterate trying to pass himself off as a Bible expert. And nice appeal to authority, clown, you are being a good Muslim at this point.

Moreover, as I said previously start another thread somewhere else so I can further bury you concerning what the Hebrews knew regarding evil spirits such as belial, ha nachash, sons of god etc. I would love to further educate an illiterate like you. Stop distracting from the initial focus of this post.

Again, in your stupid rage to refute me you quoted the NT to prove that even believers can be deceived by evil spirits or demons. Little do you realize how this again will come back to haunt you. Poor illiterate child.

Let us see where Paul alludes to the Deut. 32:16-17 text since this further buries you:

"Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 'Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he'" 1 Corinthians 10:14-22

Paul differentiates between the idol which is nothing, and the demons to whom the sacrifices are made.

And lest you claim Paul didn't have this passage in mind let me quote the immediate context:

"For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert. Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: 'The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.' We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come." 1 Corinthians 10:1-11

Paul is referring to the Pentateuch, more specifically to the events mentioned throughout Exodus-Deut.

So, as far as the very NT which you sourced is concerned, the demons of Deut. are evil spirits and not simply idols of the pagans.

And since you changed the subject to eternal security and mentioned 1 Timothy 4 that means that we can now use it to understand start a thread somewhere else so I can further expose your biblical illiteracy. I will be more than happy to further humiliate you by exposing how you distorted what 1 Timothy says IN CONTEXT.

Finally, you again ran (like the coward you are) from explaining where you get your morality from, by which you judge the moral code of either the Bible or the Quran. I knew you would since I could see you are simply a loudmouth illiterate who pretends he is intelligent.

Thanks for proving my point that you are simply a liar who tried to save face once you got exposed. Face it, you got owned badly.

The sad thing is your just as pathetic as Bassam. At least he is a Muslim, what is your excuse?

Ben when you get spanked into the corner all you have left is "Dk changed the topic", however I didn't change the topic at all, I mentioned issues that effect the topic we are discussing, such as your argument that Allah can even deceive a sincere believer after his conversion and I simply asked is that contradictory to the Bible? Of course that depends on whether the Bible has a consistant message regarding Eternal Security. So how is that changing the topic? What it actually says is this was your indirect way of saying you cannot answer.

Now remarkably when I talk about eternal security that is atleast relevant to the topic, but for you atleast two or three times you have tried to shift the topic from Jehovahs deception into what my beliefs about morality are, truely you are an inconsistant hypocrite, since that has nothing to do with the topic whatsoever. But then you are stupid enough to say you think I am a Muslim, so if i'm a Muslim you would already know the answer to your own question.

"Since Deut. 31 clearly tells us that God knows in advance how this people will turn out this means that the same author is employing anthropomorphic language at this point"

In other words since there is a contradiction I will now claim that this is anthropomorphic language by claiming otherwise this would be a contradiction. The only way this can work is if you assume Biblical Inerrancy. Furthermore citing an example of anthropomorphic language and pointing out the Author is aware of this literary technique does not prove that the passage in question is anthropomorphic in nature, you really do love begging the question. I don't know how many times i'm going to need to point this is out for you my Friendly Biblical Expert (irony intended).

Then after quoting the rest of Deut 13 you make a non-sequitor.

"Since the same book in the very previous chapter says Yahweh didn't speak to these false prophets, how then can could he then say that he deceived them?"

Woaah, slow down horsey. The answer is a little something called "chronological order". God did not give his true message through the false prophets is the point intended in chp 13, but did you forget that chapter 14 is actually a prediction/punishment for these very same people, including the people and the false prophets. God is telling the Son of Man what will happen to them now pay close attention to verse 7:

For every one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that separateth himself from me, and taketh his idols into his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet to inquire for himself of me; I JEHOVAH WILL ANSWER HIM BY MYSELF:"

So as you can see in chp 13 God does not speak through the prophet personally and directly, where as in chp 14 he does. Now I will go ahead and call you a biblically illiterate foolish joke who couldn't even read two chapters and yet has the audacity to spew nonsense at me.

"But let me guess, since I just slammed you again you're going to simply repeat your point (like a good Muslim) that the Bible is not consistent, or that the individual book itself is not consistent."

More strawmen! I'm expecting nothing better.

"You asked me to show where the author referred to demons and I demonstrated where he referred to them. So you got caught in your filthy lie."

Well if you want to be that hyper-literal, you didn't answer, since you left out "satan". But as you quoted me, anyone could read the context "Satan/Demon" was in the context of our discussion of supernatural agents, so that was rather stupid to try to purposely distort my words like that.

As far as me bringing up whether the author(s) of Deut being aware of the concept of Satan and Demons it is NOT a distraction, or off topic, since this is only me addressing your supposed rebuttal of Jehovah claiming direct responsibility, so of course it is of essential nature, and you could only point to two verses that haven't proven your case, but we will leave that topic for another time.

"So, as far as the very NT which you sourced is concerned, the demons of Deut. are evil spirits and not simply idols of the pagans."

Now this is purely stupid since i'm not asking what a jewish-roman living in the first century believes about a document (according to you) written atleast 1500 years before him. I can easily also point out not everyone agrees with your intepretation here and give a supportive justification for it, but once again you are trying to distract, this is just a red herring.

"Thanks for proving my point that you are simply a liar who tried to save face once you got exposed. Face it, you got owned badly."

Yep, you have made it more obvious that you got owned so let me own you some more.

First, you did change the subject and I anticipated long before you claim that I did.

Second, I mentioned your morality since you were lodging a claimant against the way Yahweh works vis-a-vis Allah's deceiving believers. But like the typical coward you are you knew you would get slammed. Yep, you got owned.

Third, thanks for doing exactly what I said concerning my appeal to the very same book in Deut. to show that you are Biblically illiterate and cannot understand, specifically, attack its consistency. Illiterates like you who have nothing of substance typically resort to such tactic`s when they get their behinds handed to them.

Like I said start a thread somewhere

And what is even more laughable is your appeal to chronology to offset what I said concerning the way in which Yahweh entices or deceives in Ezek.

Not only does this show your desperation it further proves you are Biblically illiterate. I even highlighted those parts for you but let me do it again since it takes illiterates awhile to figure things out.

"Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. Then the word of the LORD came to me: 'Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? Therefore speak to them and tell them, "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself IN KEEPING WITH HIS GREAT IDOLATRY. I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols."' Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices! When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD. And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. They will bear THEIR GUILT—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. Then the people of Israel WILL NO LONGER STRAY FROM ME, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' " Ezekiel 14:1-11

Let me repeat that specific part one more time.

I the LORD will answer him myself IN KEEPING WITH HIS GREAT IDOLATRY.

So God says right here that he will answer the people in accord with their idolatry? How does he do that? By giving them want they want, which is false prophets. But since Yahweh plainly says that he doesn't speak to these false prophets that means he must be enticing them through other means. Welcome to 1 Kings 22 which you couold not refute but your desperate stupidity simply brushed aside because you assume it isn't relevant to Ezekiel 14 since it is a different book. Sorry of we could care less for your presuppositions. You know what you can do with them.

This precisely proves my point that God hands people over to the desires of their wicked hearts because they refuse to believe in the truth, and this is therefore UNLIKE what Allah does, which was the original point of discussion that you ran from like a coward. illiterates do that quite often.

Face it, Ezekiel 13 and 14 slammed you and further showed why you should be in Mecca kissing the black stone.

And the final point for now since I am on the run. Even more laughable was your attempt to discredit the witness of Paul and the NT concerning the meaning of Deut. WHEN YOU WERE THE MORON WHO APPEALED TO THEM REGARDING HOW YAHWEH WORKS IN HANDING PEOPLE OVER TO THEIR DESIRES AND SOUGHT TO PROVE THAT HE ALSO DECEIVES HIS OWN PEOPLE. So when it is convenient you will appeal to the NT to understand and/or prove ypour assertions concerning Yahweh's character in the OT, but when those same documents slam you and prove you are illiterate kid you then appeal to your presupposition that the Bible is not consistent to and time-factor, that this was written at a different time, in order to avoid having to deal with the implications of the NT witness.

Like I said you are a great Muslim.

And star another thread somewhere else so I can further help cure your illiteracy concerning the meaning of 1 Timothy 4 IN CONTEXT.

I will address the rest of your points later so I can further own you. In the meantime just live with the fact that you got punked. You should be on that show since your illiteracy lends itself well to getting humiliated.

"First, you did change the subject and I anticipated long before you claim that I did."

Already disproven

"Second, I mentioned your morality since you were lodging a claimant against the way Yahweh works vis-a-vis Allah's deceiving believers. But like the typical coward you are you knew you would get slammed. Yep, you got owned."

Exactly you changed the subject, and now you are exposed for attacking me for supposedly doing the same. Later on once again you called me a "a Great Muslim" which further proves you are stupid enough to ask questions you already know the answer to.

Then after mentiong Deut being consistant you say:

"Like I said start a thread somewhere"

Notice you were happy to talk about Deut up until this point even whilst we were talking about the consistancy factor, and now all of a sudden "start another thread". Which we both know can never happen, because only David can start threads on his website. This is a cowardly dishonest tactic. You got owned once again similar to Timothy this is another indirect way of saying I cannot answer.

"So God says right here that he will answer the people in accord with their idolatry? How does he do that? By giving them want they want, which is false prophets. But since Yahweh plainly says that he doesn't speak to these false prophets that means he must be enticing them through other means."

Now this is truely remarkable you got slammed here, now you are repeating yourself completely unable to contend with the fact that I answered this objection already, not only did I answer it, but the text EXPLICTLY SAYS what I have been saying all along, so this time DEAL with what I say instead of repeating yourself:

"The answer is a little something called "chronological order". God did not give his true message through the false prophets is the point intended in chp 13, but did you forget that chapter 14 is actually a prediction/punishment for these very same people, including the people and the false prophets. God is telling the Son of Man what will happen to them now pay close attention to verse 7:

For every one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that separateth himself from me, and taketh his idols into his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet to inquire for himself of me; I JEHOVAH WILL ANSWER HIM BY MYSELF:"

So as you can see in chp 13 God does not speak through the prophet personally and directly, where as in chp 14 he does. Now I will go ahead and call you a biblically illiterate foolish joke who couldn't even read two chapters and yet has the audacity to spew nonsense at me."

At this point this is now over three critical factors you are refusing to address, and in a cowardly attempt to pretend to start a new thread, your dishonesty is catching up with you!

"This precisely proves my point that God hands people over to the desires of their wicked hearts because they refuse to believe in the truth, and this is therefore UNLIKE what Allah does, which was the original point of discussion that you ran from like a coward. illiterates do that quite often."

Notice the assertion this is "unlike" what Allah does. When you have NOT PROVEN this assertion. David had only shown Allah deceives sincere believers, however Ben you have not shown that Allah DOES NOT deceive those who refuse the truth. And furthermore the original point of discussion was whether since Jehovah deceives before the conversion of believers, if this was any better than Allah deceiving afterwards, to which I rejected the timeframe answer. When ultimately Jehovah is responsible for who believes and who is deceived anyhow, which I have already been over.

"And the final point for now since I am on the run."

Would have to agree here, you are on the run, now start answering!

"Even more laughable was your attempt to discredit the witness of Paul and the NT concerning the meaning of Deut. WHEN YOU WERE THE MORON WHO APPEALED TO THEM REGARDING HOW YAHWEH WORKS IN HANDING PEOPLE OVER TO THEIR DESIRES AND SOUGHT TO PROVE THAT HE ALSO DECEIVES HIS OWN PEOPLE." So when it is convenient you will appeal to the NT to understand and/or prove ypour assertions concerning Yahweh's character in the OT, but when those same documents slam you and prove you are illiterate kid you then appeal to your presupposition that the Bible is not consistent to and time-factor, that this was written at a different time, in order to avoid having to deal with the implications of the NT witness."

Now the dishonesty of this is truely remarkable. In context I was asking for the views of Deut whether Satan/Demons existed since I never disputed Pauls beliefs in the supernatural. Furthermore I never attempted to "discredit" Paul all I pointed out was his views on Deut were irrelevant IN THE CONTEXT that my QUESTION WAS ASKED IN, which was WHETHER THE AUTHOR(s) OF DEUT HAD AWARENESS OF DEVIL/DEMON DOGMA. This is about the THIRD TIME you have tried to distort my words for your own purposes.

"And star another thread somewhere else so I can further help cure your illiteracy concerning the meaning of 1 Timothy 4 IN CONTEXT."

Once again the cowardly tactic of avoiding answering because you cannot, so you pretend we can open up threads inorder to be the coward you are.

"I will address the rest of your points later so I can further own you. In the meantime just live with the fact that you got punked."

lol, and this is about the third time you have repeated this, I mean who are you really convincing Ben? You haven't "punked" or "owned" anyone, you seem to be only convincing yourself

Ben let me give you some kind advise, you came into the ring you were knocked out, the only thing your engaging in now is damage control..You have ran from nearly every relevant point to the subject, it is time to confess Ben that your efforts are futile since you have been humiliated as the clown you are.

Do I hear a bark? Yeah, it's dk or should I say the dumb kid. Nice choice for a moniker, it fits perfectly. I am copying your crap so I can write a thorough reply in order to further expose your smokescreens. I will also address 1 Timothy 4 as well to further show that you would be a great Muslim since you are just bas stupid as the var Muslims you criticize. This will also muzzle your mouth so you won't claim that I am avoiding anything, unlike you the coward who avoided many of my questions such as your morality which is apparent you have none.

Talk about knock-out, you weren't even in the fight so how could you knock anyone out? But more to come. In the meantime, keep barking. Muhammad would be proud of you.

DK,You must play the game. You must accept some a priori. You must argue from within not from without. Be Muslim or be Christian or be all. You argue from without and from within to discredit botht parties and you twist the debate. This leads to total confusion. Be neutral, be Christian, and Muslim alternatively and judge as a jury would do. You can’t debate here from atheistic point of vue. This point of vue is legitimate, for sure, but not in this discussion. Be like a juryman, hear botht opponents, hear their arguments and judge on them, not on something else, outside the court. I don’t know if I am clear.

Personnaly, I decide in favor of Christians. Here is one compelling reason : Quran says Jesus is born from a Spirit of God, is born miraculously, talk in is craddle, gave life to clay birds, healed leprous, revived deads and was elevated alive in heavens. This can’t de just a free show, this is a sign from God, this is an authentication from God. This means that Jesus is on earth for a great mission from God. Muhammad was absolutely not such a man, far from it. No such prodigies authenticate Muhammad. Between Muhammad and Jesus, what Quran says, makes me decide in favor of Jesus. This is clear. To believe or not believe does not matter. Jesus not crucified ? This point vue does not stands neither, for also compelling reasons.

Bassam, What a silly argument from your side, depending on the Null Hypothesis with no single evidence.

First opening statement was very inconsistent to reply David's statement. Just went over 10 points, which is fine, but not replying to single point of what David said, is no a good way to discuss topics.

You keep saying I dont believe, with no evidnce , PROVES how weak isalm is.

Claude i'm only reading your response about 1 year later since this link came up in a chatroom.

Claude, in this case I do come from the neutral position, which is the outsiders view point. If a God existed, for God to deceive anyone at anytime for any reason is inconsistant with that of an omnibenevolent, omnscient, transcendant being.

Some Christians belive it's only wrong for God to deceive those who are following him closely and hence the objection to Islam. They also think it's perfectly okay for God to punish rebellious sinners with what they ask for, even if that means false beliefs, aka deception. Is this anyway for a judge to act? based on the requests of the convicted rebel? a sinner? And to use deception? To trick people into thinking and believing false things? Is God not the source of ALL Truth?

Who am I to judge how a God should behave or judge a person? Well let me ask a similar question. Who is God to judge how anyone should act? If you say he is the ultimate authority and perfect judge, how do I know this? Because he has a standard? Well Hitler has a standard, anyone can make a standard, what matters is if that standard takes into account human nature and what is best for humans. You believe God is the authority and perfect judge because "God himself says so in the Bible", this is nothing but self-appointed authority. Thus i'm just as valid if not more valid judge than him. I am because I assert I am. Why is God? Ultimately Christians have to admit because he is a self-appointed authority, who thinks he knows best.

I don’t know if I understand you correctly but I will clarify my point of vue. My conviction is that Allah is the forgery of a mad man, Muhammad, who fashioned a god up to his resemblance. Allah IS Muhammad, a huge Muhammad, hidden behind the curtain, who imposes an absolute power upon the mind and the morality of Muslims, frighten, subdue, and manipulate them. 1400 years after Muhammad’s death, Muslims are still freighten and manipulated by him. Islam is evil. Allah is mad god. Allah makes people believe that what is evil is good and what is good is evil.

Christianism is also only a faith BUT not an evil faith. You know, I am not really a believer but I praise very much all the great myths of Christianism : original sin, Incarnation, Redemption, Resurrection, Trinity, Holy Spirit etc. I praise the image of a loving God who hold out his hand to men, of a God who dwells in the heart of his creatures , who send them a Holy Spirit to inspire them. A praise a God who can be known more and more profondly. I praise the mystic body where everyone is one in God. I praise the belief that what gives the possibility to human beeings to love each others is the love of God for them. Etc. There is a great spirituality in Christianism. Islam is absolutely deprived of all spirituality and Muslims don’t understand even what it means. Allah is a cruel and arbitrary despot and if you don’t blindly submitt to him and his Prophet, he will through you in hell and laught at you. This is, essentially, the “spirituality” of Muslims.

Between Christianism and Islam, I choose Christianism. I try to make Muslims understand the Christian God. I can’t tell them that God does not exist and that religion is exploitation. We don’t know if God exists nor who he may be. Religion is not necessary exploitation. Men need hope, support, positive values etc. So, why not imagine God, a loving, compassionnate, caring , helping, forgiving beeing.? Why not give him the most eminent qualities we can imagine instead of giving him the most sordid like Muslims do ? Christian’s God teaches love, forgiveness. Muslim’s Allah teaches fear, division, retaliation, cruelness.

Ask a fair minded and sane person to judge between Allah and God, even if they are pure fictions; ask him wich one is more suitable to built harmonious relations between men and more progressive society. I know his verdict.

DK, if this doesn’t answer your question, ask it again in other words. I understand quickly but one must explain me lengthly…….

Atheists also are believers. They are very preoccupied by the idea of God. Nobody can conclude that God, an almighty personal intelligence, does not exist without a heart pang., without a certain desapointment. And I must say that there are lots of very, very good arguments to sustain that God does not exist. Pesonnaly, I am agnostic. I don’t know. That is of little importance. I try to love neighbors and I am, I think, a man of good will and if God exists I will know him someday. If he exists, he is certainly not the narrow-minded, sadistic, egotist and despotic Allah but an intelligent being. Nobody fears intelligent and fair persons.

Hey, what about the scientific errors in the Old Testament? I'm pretty sure textual criticism and the way the bible was written and assembled have something to do with it, but I'm not sure how to answer that question.

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