if[/b] there were a reason to think "Remedial Chaos Theory" wasn't Abed's imagination, I'd agree that it qualifies.

Click to expand...

I think there's every reason to think it IS alternative timelines, not Abed's imagination. Generally, when Abed imagines something, there's a tilt of his head, and he imagines, and then a cut to. Here, as I recall there was no such thing.

Well, by that logic, did The Big Bang Theory qualify when Leonard imagined Sheldon reproducing through mitosis? Or Scrubs qualify for a Hugo every time J.D. imagined himself in a sci-fi setting? Or The Wonder Years when Kevin imagined himself and his friends as the characters from "Spock's Brain?" Etc.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure about The Wonder Years, as I was never into that series, but in the case of The Big Bang Theory example and J.D.'s imaginations on Scrubs, those were not the basis for full episodes (with the exception of Scrubs "My Princess," and that episode was, well, in a word, bad).

In the case of The Big Bang Theory, maybe if Leonard's imagined Sheldon reproducing through mitosis and spent the episode following them as they both reproduced again and eventually overwhelmed the Earth with Sheldons it would qualify.

What you're saying is equivalent to saying that Inception was not science fiction

Well, by that logic, did The Big Bang Theory qualify when Leonard imagined Sheldon reproducing through mitosis? Or Scrubs qualify for a Hugo every time J.D. imagined himself in a sci-fi setting? Or The Wonder Years when Kevin imagined himself and his friends as the characters from "Spock's Brain?" Etc.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure about The Wonder Years, as I was never into that series, but in the case of The Big Bang Theory example and J.D.'s imaginations on Scrubs, those were not the basis for full episodes (with the exception of Scrubs "My Princess," and that episode was, well, in a word, bad).

In the case of The Big Bang Theory, maybe if Leonard's imagined Sheldon reproducing through mitosis and spent the episode following them as they both reproduced again and eventually overwhelmed the Earth with Sheldons it would qualify.

What you're saying is equivalent to saying that Inception was not science fiction

if you believe that Cobb might have been dreaming the entire time.

Click to expand...

Well, no, because even if that were the case, it was all the result of the dream machine. Inception was obviously as much science fiction as Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

@Zoom Sci pointed out why he thinks Abed is imagining the timelines in another post, the point that made sense the most to me is that Abed imagined the Christmas claymation episode. I then furthered the thought that since he imagined the claymation due to having problems with not being at home for the holidays, he could be imagining this due to some problems he is going through. Perhaps between him and Troy, or him and the group, so he's internalizing whatever it is.

It could very well be alternative timelines considering it is "Community" but I do think Sci is on to something.

@Zoom Sci pointed out why he thinks Abed is imagining the timelines in another post, the point that made sense the most to me is that Abed imagined the Christmas claymation episode. I then furthered the thought that since he imagined the claymation due to having problems with not being at home for the holidays, he could be imagining this due to some problems he is going through. Perhaps between him and Troy, or him and the group, so he's internalizing whatever it is.

Click to expand...

However, IN the claymation episode it's made VERY clear that Abed is imagining this and the group is playing along. There is no such indication in the alternative timelines episode at all. Within the episode, what evidence is there that Abed is imagining it? Or where is Sci's post?

@Zoom Sci pointed out why he thinks Abed is imagining the timelines in another post, the point that made sense the most to me is that Abed imagined the Christmas claymation episode. I then furthered the thought that since he imagined the claymation due to having problems with not being at home for the holidays, he could be imagining this due to some problems he is going through. Perhaps between him and Troy, or him and the group, so he's internalizing whatever it is.

Click to expand...

However, IN the claymation episode it's made VERY clear that Abed is imagining this and the group is playing along. There is no such indication in the alternative timelines episode at all. Within the episode, what evidence is there that Abed is imagining it?

Click to expand...

Well, there's the fact that it's Abed who introduces the concept, and who then ushers us back into the "regular" timeline. It's Abed who muses that the roll of the dice will create multiple timelines, and Abed who brings us back. It's also Dark Timeline Abed, in the credits sequence, who declares that his timeline is the "darkest" timeline and decides to start wearing an Evil Spock Goatee -- something not likely to happen if Dark Timeline Abed actually believed his timeline was the timeline; it sounds more to me like the depiction of Abed's imagined alternate self in his own mind than something any version of Abed would actually think.

And then, of course, a few weeks ago, Abed "encounters" the Dark Timeline Abed while in the Dreamatorium--and somehow Dark Timeline Abed just happens to have gotten ahold of a space ship and has been somehow monitoring events in the Prime Timeline? It's highly implausible.

So it all seems more likely to me that the alternate timelines were Abed's musings rather than "actual" alternate timelines.

Sci's reasoning on this is really sound to me, even given the fact that it is "Community" it still goes with the "meta-ness" of Abed. Like I said he seems to internalize all of his problems that he is going through. Right now he and Troy are going through problems, so i see no reason why this couldn't be the case, as much as I love the idea about alternate realities existing in "Community" Abed imagining them could be that "twist" they're weaving. So I give it a lot of credence even though I didn't think about it before Sci first suggested it

Sci's reasoning on this is really sound to me, even given the fact that it is "Community" it still goes with the "meta-ness" of Abed. Like I said he seems to internalize all of his problems that he is going through. Right now he and Troy are going through problems, so i see no reason why this couldn't be the case, as much as I love the idea about alternate realities existing in "Community" Abed imagining them could be that "twist" they're weaving. So I give it a lot of credence even though I didn't think about it before Sci first suggested it

Click to expand...

Thank you much.

I don't want to come across like I think mine is the only valid interpretation, or like thinking the alternate timelines actually exist is a completely terrible idea. It's not. But I just don't agree with it, personally.

Between that, the Gollum MTV Movie Award acceptance speech, and nominating an episode of a fan film series in 2008 ("World Enough and Time" from Star Trek: New Voyages), I gotta say, I don't have a lot of respect for the Best Dramatic Presentation Hugo's nomination standards.

ETA:

(I disagree with nominating "Remedial Chaos Theory," for the reasons I've outlined, but I don't fundamentally disrespect it. If we accept that those were actual alternate timelines and not Abed's musings, "Remedial Chaos Theory" is a perfectly legitimate and thought-provoking -- and hilarious! -- episode of science fiction. But these other nominations are just bullshit.)

The problem is that is exactly that - a fan film series. In other words, not a professional production.

This has more to do with the fact that there are other, professional productions out there competing for the award that otherwise lost their chance at winning because of all the press "World Enough and Time" got because of Takei's involvement and, rightly, because of how well-made it was. I can't recall at the time whether there was anything in the rules about the Hugo awards prohibiting the fan film from competing, but I remember an awful lot of professional writers, directors and voters were not pleased about it's being submitted and nominated.

Should the Nobel Committee nominate a work of fan fiction in a field that's competing against professional literature? No, of course not.

Would you put a fan-written and produced sequel to Les Miserables up for a Tony? No, of course not.

Because the standards of quality are completely different, and because it's inappropriate to nominate an unauthorized, unlicensed work of fiction based upon someone else's copyrighted work up against original copyrighted work.

If the Hugos want to be in the business of nominating fan films, or CGI characters' awards acceptance skits, they should create a "Best Fan Film Installment" category, and a "Best Genre Short" or "Best Genre Skit" category.

I see your point Sci, and while there are some bad fan produced stuff out there, there is some extremely good ones as well. Such as The Joker Blogs which is probably my favourite Batman related fan produced project. The quality and dedication these guys have put into their work blows most everything else away. It would be one thing if it were crap being produced, but I have no problem if it is quality. It is rare yes, but quality stuff is there. I think your parameters are a little narrow minded to be honest. Perhaps your suggestion of a Fan Produced category should be something the Hugo committee or whoever is in charge should consider. Also didn't "Sanctuary" start as a fan series on the web? Look at "Red Vs Blue" as well. Lots of examples. Both original and fan projects. Anyway this type of discussion really belongs in it's own thread I think.

I see your point Sci, and while there are some bad fan produced stuff out there, there is some extremely good ones as well. Such as The Joker Blogs which is probably my favourite Batman related fan produced project. The quality and dedication these guys have put into their work blows most everything else away. It would be one thing if it were crap being produced, but I have no problem if it is quality. It is rare yes, but quality stuff is there. I think your parameters are a little narrow minded to be honest. Perhaps your suggestion of a Fan Produced category should be something the Hugo committee or whoever is in charge should consider. Also didn't "Sanctuary" start as a fan series on the web? Look at "Red Vs Blue" as well. Lots of examples. Both original and fan projects. Anyway this type of discussion really belongs in it's own thread I think.

I still haven't seen the last two episodes either

Click to expand...

Nobody is disputing the quality of some of the fan films. "World Enough and Time" is easily the best show the crew at New Voyages has done. You yourself cite the Joker Blogs. These are exceptions to the rule.

But there are guidelines for these awards considerations, and the advent and advancement of technologies allowing more people to make films and make them easily accessible is blurring the lines between amateur and professional quality filmmaking.

Would you expect the Joker Blogs to compete in an awards race up against The Dark Knight? Of course not. It's comparing apples and oranges.

Too, the element of intellectual property becomes more important in these proceedings. Fan films aren't supposed to generate income for their producers. What happens if their film wins prize money? It's one thing to get a trophy, but once there's money exchanging hands, don't you think the copyright holders are going to get involved?

I don't think it is narrow minded at all to consider these items in a situation like this, no matter how good the fan film is.

As for Sanctuary, it was a webseries produced at no cost in 2007 that SciFi picked up and expanded in to an actual television series. So no, it was not a fan series before becoming a TV show.

I didn't think about those points Double Oh...all of which are great ones, especially the infringement on rights point which has derailed numerous project for obvious reasons. I wasn't clear on the "Sanctuary" thing either, so thanks for clearing that up. I thought perhaps Sci was "looking down" upon fan films but now see that he wasn't and I take my my narrow minded comment and apologize

There's no need to apologize, but I appreciate the offer I think it's just that we live in a very interesting time thanks to the rapid advancement of technologies in everyday life.

I was seated on a jury last year and managed to get myself excused because a key piece of evidence the prosecutors wanted to use was a video they'd made of the defendant without his knowledge. When they questioned me before starting the proceedings, I very seriously pointed out how uncomfortable I was with this as I knew it was already illegal to use wiretapped/recorded conversations without a person's consent -- why should video recorded under similar circumstances be admissable?

Things like this need to be sorted out and decided upon in advance before law can be applied to it. Likewise, the blurred line of quality between fan films and professional productions complicates things like awards qualifications as we've discussed. Its just a fact of life today, but one that most people tend to shrug off without considering the actual, practical implications of said fact.

^^ Doubleohfive sums up my thoughts fairly well. I don't think it's fair to professionals or to fan film creators to have their works compete against one-another, for all the reasons he cited. It's not fair to professionals, who have worked to build solid careers and should be judged against the standards set by their fellow professionals; and it's not fair to the fan film creators, who have to work to create something of quality with far fewer resources (in money, equipment, and, often, numbers of talented performers) than a professional production has access to.

@Zoom Sci pointed out why he thinks Abed is imagining the timelines in another post, the point that made sense the most to me is that Abed imagined the Christmas claymation episode. I then furthered the thought that since he imagined the claymation due to having problems with not being at home for the holidays, he could be imagining this due to some problems he is going through. Perhaps between him and Troy, or him and the group, so he's internalizing whatever it is.

Click to expand...

However, IN the claymation episode it's made VERY clear that Abed is imagining this and the group is playing along. There is no such indication in the alternative timelines episode at all. Within the episode, what evidence is there that Abed is imagining it?

Click to expand...

Well, there's the fact that it's Abed who introduces the concept, and who then ushers us back into the "regular" timeline. It's Abed who muses that the roll of the dice will create multiple timelines, and Abed who brings us back. It's also Dark Timeline Abed, in the credits sequence, who declares that his timeline is the "darkest" timeline and decides to start wearing an Evil Spock Goatee -- something not likely to happen if Dark Timeline Abed actually believed his timeline was the timeline; it sounds more to me like the depiction of Abed's imagined alternate self in his own mind than something any version of Abed would actually think.

And then, of course, a few weeks ago, Abed "encounters" the Dark Timeline Abed while in the Dreamatorium--and somehow Dark Timeline Abed just happens to have gotten ahold of a space ship and has been somehow monitoring events in the Prime Timeline? It's highly implausible.

So it all seems more likely to me that the alternate timelines were Abed's musings rather than "actual" alternate timelines.

Click to expand...

I can see that. Though, it feel like he's the one explaining the idea, setting it up, to the cast (a stand in for the audience.) Of all the characters who is going to explain alternative timelines, he's the only reasonable choice.

As far as Darktimeline Abed, I don't know if I agree. Darktimeline Abed could be just as meta as "our" Abed. He saw how bad things got, and realizes that in a different timeline things must've turned out ok. So, he makes the logical assumption this is the bad timeline, thus the goatee.

It's like when you get into a car accident, in another timeline, you didn't. And THAT'S the good one, you know?

(As far as the return... don't know...)

Personally, I also think it's a less risky choice for it to only have taken place in Abed's imagination.