Zhust wrote:[But it also demonstrates that there appears to be a level of personal happiness that is unrelated to one’s life condition. If happiness truly were tied to one’s life condition, then extremely well-off people would be constantly overjoyed and poor people would beg for brevity in their miserable existences.

So I guess when it comes to misery and suicide, I have to wonder how much is innate (one's default mood) and how much of it is circumstantial. And of the part that's innate, how moral is it to manipulate that with drugs? So if someone is innately miserable all the time no matter what the circumstances, I can see how it makes sense to chemically manipulate jeir brain so jee has a more pleasant existence. But if one is miserable because, say, jee can see living jeir whole life working in cubicles and whose only purpose is to simply exist and consume resources, I think it's less about a defective brain and more about a defective society.

Happiness comes from meeting your needs. You probably heard of 'Maslow's hierarchy of needs', to which other people have added other kinds of needs. They're things like safety and security, belonging, self-esteem and then the more esoteric needs - novelty, personal growth or transcendence, etc. Rich people tend to meet their security needs (unless they're self-destructive), but they don't automatically meet their other needs better than the next guy. Some are downright miserable despite the wad of cash!

As far as what is innate and what is circumstantial, I think people love to argue that. Personally I don't like to separate the two. Circumstances happen, but how do you actually process that internally? (Can something bad be a lesson or challenge or do you hold it as a burden that has been inflicted upon you?) And then on a more metaphysical sense - how much does your internal moods, beliefs, choices (resonance??) affect the circumstances that are drawn to you?

Yes! Abraham Maslow makes a lot of sense to me. Last time I looked for his best known book "Hierarchy of Needs" the prices were a bit steep (It may be a college text book), but the highlights should be readily available online, including his graphic "food pyramid" of human needs. Recommended reading, methinks.

dana, this isn't the place for the type of conversation that you're trying to ensue, We're here to help our friends when they need it. I won't apologize for this, as it it what I needed to say to you. What's more is you're trying to hijack this thread. Your rhetoric is familiar too.

Sometimes I'm confused by what I think is really obvious. But what I think is really obvious obviously isn't obvious.

If you have it in you to survive a file, they you probably have it in you to face a mutilating accident and get up again and spit in the eyes of adversity and say, "Ha!" Unless, of course, that's not helpful. Do what you need and ask for whatever help you want. We want you to be in the driver's seat, but expect us to keep showing you possible horses.Yes, all my metaphors are sparklepony metaphors...

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

dana, this isn't the place for the type of conversation that you're trying to ensue, We're here to help our friends when they need it. I won't apologize for this, as it it what I needed to say to you. What's more is you're trying to hijack this thread. Your rhetoric is familiar too.

Thank you, maryanimal. It did seem a sort of "gotcha" question to me, and I plonked as soon as possible before it went any further.Did have massave fantasies about asking: "Zo, how long haf you had zis compulsion to act as a psychiatrist on the internetz, Herr Dana", so thanks for giving me the opportunity. :colonel mustard:

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Its funny. When I first heard all that stuff in college it was just this dry academic exercise in categorizing things which didn't seem to have much real application. I probably would have paid more attention if I thought it had anything to do with my own happiness.But its actually pretty straight forward and useful. Like one of the things that makes you happy Elliot - designing, building and watching people use those crazy pedal powered kinetic crafts you created. That upper tier has to do with more abstract things like aesthetics and personal expression. So you get that. But you also might get a sense of self esteem, like "Hey this is something I designed and people dig it!!" And they ARE pretty cool...

I guess I should mention (on the topic) that depression is not the mere lack of meeting one's needs. A bit more complex.

So Maryanimal. That's an odd comment. Sorry but whenever someone directs a comment about me I reserve the right to respond. If you don't like that or feel that you somehow have to shield Crypto I would question that pretty hard. There are those over the years that have criticized eplaya as often elitist or xenophobic. Many of them eventually leave. Some were great voices that I wanted to hear more from, but they got sick of the bitchiness and left. Its part of the reason that I don't spend much time here. But I do occasionally get interested in a topic and I miss the BM community. As far as 'hijacking' a thread, I'm not quite sure what you mean - don't write so much, don't express strong opinions, give short little pithy posts that no one minds??? If you don't like what I write there is a simple solution. I think they call it plonking or blocking someone, so you won't have to read my annoying ideas. I do express strong opinions because I've been studying and practicing this stuff for over 20 years and I like to write and express ideas. But block it if you don't like it. Or if you think the thread needs to go off in another direction - do it! Lets hear it!As far as what kinds of conversation are appropriate here I think any honest discussion is fair game. Pissing on someone's post is not cool with me, yet there are those on eplaya that have been doing just that for years and are still here.For what its worth I've gotten a few PM's from people that either really like what I write or they're pissed off with the kind of 'hands off' attitude you expressed when it comes to shielding certain people. I'm pretty sure I know why you do it, but I don't agree. Neither do some silent others here. Although I am sympathetic to what I think your motivations are!!

And finally Box Burner - cool, good to hear from you. And yeah, letting the love in is huge!! You could spend an entire lifetime exploring it and never come to the end...

Last edited by dana on Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

If you have it in you to survive a file, they you probably have it in you to face a mutilating accident and get up again and spit in the eyes of adversity and say, "Ha!" Unless, of course, that's not helpful. Do what you need and ask for whatever help you want. We want you to be in the driver's seat, but expect us to keep showing you possible horses.Yes, all my metaphors are sparklepony metaphors...

Love your metaphors fishy.Not sure what I would have done in your situation Fishy. I know that it was very dark for a long time.

My situation is damned if you do, damned if you don't, and damned if you do nothing. Always been like that. I didn't always know it but I am old enough to see it now. And I am just fucking tired of it. So yeah, it really does feel like it is time to go. And it is an evaluation I make all the time.

And I probably do need to see some different horses. All the ones around me are fucking lame.

Box Burner wrote:So yeah, it really does feel like it is time to go. And it is an evaluation I make all the time.

One of the things that cognitive therapy can do is to help you catch your brain when it's saying those things, and to generate other "noise" that can drown it out. Or maybe it's fairer to say, teach you how to quiet that part of the brain. All I can say is the overly simple "Stop making that evaluation." If you stopped asking yourself that particular question, then you'd stop saying "yes" to that idea. Of course, stopping that noise isn't easy. Talking, meditation, drugs... wherever you find answers that work... can all help with that.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

dana, this isn't the place for the type of conversation that you're trying to ensue, We're here to help our friends when they need it. I won't apologize for this, as it it what I needed to say to you. What's more is you're trying to hijack this thread. Your rhetoric is familiar too.

Thank you, maryanimal. It did seem a sort of "gotcha" question to me, and I plonked as soon as possible before it went any further.Did have massave fantasies about asking: "Zo, how long haf you had zis compulsion to act as a psychiatrist on the internetz, Herr Dana", so thanks for giving me the opportunity. :colonel mustard:

maryanimal wrote:dana, this isn't the place for the type of conversation that you're trying to ensue, We're here to help our friends when they need it. I won't apologize for this, as it it what I needed to say to you. What's more is you're trying to hijack this thread. Your rhetoric is familiar too.

Thank you, maryanimal. It did seem a sort of "gotcha" question to me, and I plonked as soon as possible before it went any further.Did have massave fantasies about asking: "Zo, how long haf you had zis compulsion to act as a psychiatrist on the internetz, Herr Dana", so thanks for giving me the opportunity. :colonel mustard:

Marymal, if you hadn't done this I would have. I look at this thread as a suicide hot line, and monitor it as such.I've been lurking this thread since we started it, and there are some real gems of compassion in here, many times this thread has reminded me to "just show up." thx.

Dana totally out of line! Like a drunk frat boy at temple burn. Fuck you. *plonk*

.......................................................................................Oh yeah, this year I was totally twerping out at the fence. ~Lonesombri

If you have it in you to survive a file, they you probably have it in you to face a mutilating accident and get up again and spit in the eyes of adversity and say, "Ha!" Unless, of course, that's not helpful. Do what you need and ask for whatever help you want. We want you to be in the driver's seat, but expect us to keep showing you possible horses.Yes, all my metaphors are sparklepony metaphors...

Love your metaphors fishy.Not sure what I would have done in your situation Fishy. I know that it was very dark for a long time.

My situation is damned if you do, damned if you don't, and damned if you do nothing. Always been like that. I didn't always know it but I am old enough to see it now. And I am just fucking tired of it. So yeah, it really does feel like it is time to go. And it is an evaluation I make all the time.

And I probably do need to see some different horses. All the ones around me are fucking lame.

keep truckin BB.......what, would help?I know that's a wide ranging question, maybe too broad.but, really? As is, what if you said : A couple of weeks in Florida, or California, to just relax............would make a world of difference? and what if, one of us had the room and said. "yeah BB, come on out for a few weeks"......everyone agreeing to all timelines if necessary and such.....but still.or, if you just needed a T.V. to watch.......

all I'm saying, and it's a general statement for this thread, is if you're hurtin, or whatever, if others knew how to help, it might be a surprise (but probably not), how much they'd like to help. We just need to be pointed in the right direction!And no, it's not "begging or whining" to say what you need, when you get to this point. It's info others would like to have.

Yer a cool cat, and a good person, BB.....speaking for me' (but probably others), I'd sure like to sit and visit at a few more Burns, or otherwise, with you.

I’m just going to venture in and repeat what has already been said: no one has a monopoly on suffering and how to deal with it, and no one can say what might or might not resonate with, or work for someone looking for answers. That works in every possible direction. What didn’t work for one may work wonders for another, and we can’t be calling “bullshit” on a concept just because of personal disagreements. Not in here.

This is no place for hatred and censorship.

Now that that’s out of my system....

I’m glad that Yggy jumped in and asked the real question for BB: “ What do you NEED?”

I realize from what I know of you BB (which is basically very little), that you aren’t much of one for big descriptions of your troubles. Elliot pretty much puked out his problems right to the bile.... making it easy to sort through the mess and identify the various choking chunks. With you it’s not so easy to discern need.

I also realize that you have probably been a bit more candid with people in PM – with friends whom you trust. I also have to presume that I’m not the only one who doesn’t want to bombard your PM inbox with “Hi, you don’t know me, but...” messages that you most probably don’t have the energy to be responding to ad nauseam....

I just keep getting a horrible visual of someone with a great gashing hemorrhage, being offered a bottle of Rolaids by masses who just don’t KNOW how you’re bleeding, while only a few try to keep you safe, with not enough compresses, or sutures or hands......

We (those of us not in your loop) want to help too. We don’t want to help with virtual hugs and get-well-soon cards and platitudes that may or may not hit the mark. We need direction.

I apologize for wanting to dig. Digging might not be the best thing to do in your case. It's just that we're standing here, shovels in hand, staring at the ground........

(((BB))) Do you take fish oil caps w/Omega 3 6 9 ? If not, you might want to consider taking those 52 weeks of the year.

I started taking omegas for my chronic back pain issues a month ago and just last week something suddenly popped/re-adujsted in my spine for the first time in 13 years. If you google Omega 3 6 9 you'll read about how omegas help a long list of mental and/or physical trauma. Also, they can be the low cost or expensive brand.

Sorry I don't have more advice but that's helped me deal with chronic/long term pain and the stress and depression that comes with my package of pain.

I'm the MAN in a truck, burner who is stuck, you're in luck! I'll whip out my BIG tow chain and not charge you, not even one lousy buck!

And you are right Delle I am not one to go into much description of my problems. That Makes it difficult don't it? 'Spose I should say a little bit. Probably won't be much help though.

I have trust issues. Which is why I don't speak much. You won't get much out of me in public and only a little more in private. And that only if I really really trust you. Maybe. And only face to face.

What do I need? A way out. That was really helpful wasn't it? Problem is that everything is tied to everything else. The immediate problem is financial. And no, throwing money at it will not help so don't go there. It would only be a temporary fix.

I have boxes that will not burn and cannot be destroyed. So I have discovered and so say the experts. Sigh...

I’m sitting here in awe. Completely aware of the courage it must have taken you to unwrap what you just have and hold it out for us to see.

So here’s what I see:

I see a house, locked up tight. Inside is a mess of ropes and strings tied together to create a suffocating spider’s web, surrounding seemingly indestructible, immovable boxes that take up almost the entire floorspace.

There’s no room to move in there. No room to live.

The boxes and ropes have so overtaken your house to the point of leaving you just your one corner. An uncomfortable corner with a dismal view.

And so here’s what I propose:

Each of those ropes is but one rope. A tangled mess is a daunting thing. Your fingers may be numb from fumbling at those knots for years… but maybe we can help you untie them and discard those ropes one at a time.

Those boxes MAY appear to have a life of their own. They’re fucking huge and can’t be budged, burned or ignored. But they’re YOUR boxes. What they contain is YOURS, and they’re only as big as what they contain. Their contents may be poison, but for some reason you’ve decided them precious and – although you aren’t aware of it – you’re guarding them fiercely and feeding them daily. We really have to look at how they’re being fed.

What I see in your future is you dancing freely in an unencumbered room – doors and windows open allowing sweet breezes and love to float in and out easily. A pride welling up from within that you DID this thing. You MADE these changes that allowed you this freedom.

It’s possible. It really is.

The first step is to look at it all honestly and start unraveling it in a manageable way.

Get yourself some paper and a pen. Commit to filling TWO sheets (or at least two sides of one sheet) of paper a day with words. As quickly as you can... without direction or judgement or fear. Just fill the pages.

Then burn them.

Something happens in your brain when you handwrite automatically. Especially when you know you’re going to burn them afterwards. There’s a twofold freedom in the burning. Although you’ve released it – put it out there to be seen – it can never be used against you.

There’s a certain honesty that comes out when you do this regularly. Ugly things get aired out – but beautiful things too. Answers are found to questions you’d never really asked before. It’s kind of magic – unlocking the unconscious and allowing you to see what’s REALLY going on in there. But also, eventually, finding that you also hold all the answers – and that they’re way simpler than you’d thought they’d be, once broken down.

Don’t look for anything. Don’t search your brain and will yourself to spit out pearls. It won’t work. Just write. Quickly and automatically allow the words to flow.