I would really like to buy an automated spherical panorama maker which can let the camera shoot with different exposures before moving to the next position. Creating hdr spherical panorama's.Now I use the nodal ninja NN3 with ptgui, but the panogear with autopano pro or giga would make it a lot faster and easier I hope.

I have access to the following camera's (al three are supported) my own Canon g10 (which I use in combination with the nodal ninja), a nikon d7000 and the Canon eos 550D (both from work). But I would like to use the G10 (because it's smaller).

Would the panogear (in combination with the G10) be a good choice for me if I want to go automated?

merlin/panogear: yes up to a certain wheight of lens you can do 360x180. so 85mm lenses are real no problem, I even did one with my 20 years old canon 120-200mm lens and Canon EOS400D and even a 180x70 pano with a Sigma 400mm lens too.

so I did plugin the T&C handheld to the merlin and instead of connecting the handheld to my Canon EOS400D I connect it to the promote device and this is connected to the canon. bracketing with more than 15 brackets (in practise 5-7 will do the job) and also focus stacking could be done (with a liveview canon) or just shooting 5 images with identical settings for denoising the images with oloneo software

Libee Gruesse,Georg

PS: some info about more advanced automatic heads (more features than merlin, capable to hold heavier lenses and bigger cameras etc. and far more precise positioning the head - both create like the TChandcontroller and also like papywizzard software for PC&Mac nearby identical xml files which can be used by autopano to import and to guarantee besst possible image position - also for problem areas like sky, water etc.):

RobertV. wrote:And with only using a pc to control the panogear and camera, would hdr be possible as well?

first: welcome on forum - see its your second post ;-))

bracketing is a thing that must be understood by your camera. A netbook or nokia mobile conencted to the merlin (and using papywizzard software - http://www.papywizard.org/) can drive the merlin and you can set lets say 6 seconds of delay before the merlin is moving to next image position. But it cant set the aperture nore exposure time of your camera. This must be done from inside your camera (there your canon 550 as example can be configured to a 3 images bracket. so it depends if one shutter release is needed or three (depends on camera capabilities) papywizzard can handle both. but with 3 brackets you wont be happy in long terms. so a massive expensive camera can handle this with up to 7 brackets or you take external devices like the promote. Have a look at the posted link at bottom 2 videos...1 device and you can use it for the canon 550 as for your Nikon D7000, only seperate cables needed...

RobertV. wrote:And with only using a pc to control the panogear and camera, would hdr be possible as well?

With any camera alone then you can only shoot as many bracketed expsoures as the camera firmware permits. The AEB range offered by most cameras is often not adequate to capture the wide dynamic range presented by many pano scenes.

If you want extended range bracketing (beyond the range offered by the camera's AEB functionality) then you can use the Promote control with the Merlin/Panogear mount for supported DSLRs:

search internet for "magic lantern"I found similar "hack" for my Canon EOS400D which get loaded from CF card only (so switch off and put in a emty new CF card and orig Firmware from Canon is still there) and here more than 3 brackets should also be possible for your Canon 550D... the magic lantern is mainly done for video, but has also some gadgets for photography users....

It's not clear to me whether one would get a consistent set of bracketed exposures at each shooting position if shooting a pano with this setup - what do you think?

no. so do I doubt ;-( but this is a new feature... of course you can use "normal" unlimited bracketed settings so youve a consistent number of brackets....... but back to the magic lantern idea: why should it not work? if I need near the sun 15 brackets to cover 100% of LW/AEB range and in another place of the pano I only need 6 shots to cover the same 100% so why not should the pano of all theses "100%" images work? ;-)) worth a try...

Liebe Gruesse,Georg

Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gkaefer wrote:... but back to the magic lantern idea: why should it not work? if I need near the sun 15 brackets to cover 100% of LW/AEB range and in another place of the pano I only need 6 shots to cover the same 100% so why not should the pano of all theses "100%" images work? ;-)) worth a try...

Liebe Gruesse,Georg

I agree that it sounds great to have the 'enhanced' camera automagically create a set of bracketed exposoures that cover the entire dynamic range, but...

I am probably mistaken but I had an idea that APG required bracketed image sets to be handled in stacks for expsoure fusion/HDR to have the same number of images in each bracketed set for each shooting position and consistent increments in exposure bracketing values.

But of course one could pre-process the bracketed images before stitching with APP/APG.

gkaefer wrote:... but back to the magic lantern idea: why should it not work? if I need near the sun 15 brackets to cover 100% of LW/AEB range and in another place of the pano I only need 6 shots to cover the same 100% so why not should the pano of all theses "100%" images work? ;-)) worth a try...

Liebe Gruesse,Georg

I agree that it sounds great to have the 'enhanced' camera automagically create a set of bracketed exposoures that cover the entire dynamic range, but...

I am probably mistaken but I had an idea that APG required bracketed image sets to be handled in stacks for expsoure fusion/HDR to have the same number of images in each bracketed set for each shooting position and consistent increments in exposure bracketing values.

But of course one could pre-process the bracketed images before stitching with APP/APG.

I don't have a compatible camera so cannot try it.

uups - yes different number of bracketed images feeding autopano will be hardly working ;-)also to be honest - my workflow preferes currently preprocessing with photomatix, oloneo & co. so I can feed autopano with less images... (win8 64bit with "only" 8gigRAM)

Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oh my, so much response! I will quickly adress some answers, others perhaps later. (@gkaefer, thanks for the welcome!)

I actually use PSremote for my G10 atm, this works perfect with the Nodal ninja.So, the panogear can make an spherical panorama, at least I know that now.

The G10 cannot be automatically controlled with multple bracketes. So it would be preferable to use the 550 or the 7000. What would be the cheapest solution, so that I don't have to do anything when I start a panorama?

I would like to thank you all in advance, the support is really appreciated!

RobertV. wrote:I actually use PSremote for my G10 atm, this works perfect with the Nodal ninja.So, the panogear can make an spherical panorama, at least I know that now.

The G10 cannot be automatically controlled with multiple brackets.

I thought PS Remote could do that?

So it would be preferable to use the 550 or the 7000. What would be the cheapest solution, so that I don't have to do anything when I start a panorama?

What lens(es) do you have available for these cameras?

Do you plan to shoot indoor or outdoor sphericals?

If indoors then it will be particularly important to be able to position the camera/lens at the NPP.

I think it will be easier to achieve that on a Merlin/Panogear mount with the Canon 550D.

Basically if the dimension from the base of the camera to the centre of the lens mount is greater than 40mm (or the dioamter of the lens barrel if greater than 80mm) then you would need to modify the rail or dovetail clamp on the merlin/panogear mount to be abel to position the camera/lens at the NPP.

Not quite sure I understand what you mean by 'so I don't have to do anything when I start a panorama'?

You will always have to determine base manual expsoure, manual white balance and manual focus.

With 'so I don't have to do anything when I start a panorama' I mean that after I have set all the settings, I can press a button and the panogear and camera will follow the commands and starts shooting all the pictures.

"I thought PS Remote could do that?" I think I said it wrong. What I now do is pointing the camera with my nodal ninja, press F8 on my laptop, PS remote lets my G10 take 3 photo's with different shuttertimes, I turn the camera to the next angle and repeat.

"What lens(es) do you have available for these cameras?"For the Canon a standard one, 18mm (cannot say which one exactly, it's at work)Nikon: 16-85mm 1:3.5-5.6G ; 50mm f/1.8D ; 70-300mm 1:4.5-5.6G and 300mm f/4D

I do both outdoor and indoor, with the g10 that is not a problem, because I always shoot with the camera at the nodal point.

With 'so I don't have to do anything when I start a panorama' I mean that after I have set all the settings, I can press a button and the panogear and camera will follow the commands and starts shooting all the pictures.

The Merlin/Panogear mount is the least expensive robotic panohead able to handle a DSLR for shooting Mosiac (partial panos witha FOV of less than 360x180) and Spehrical panos. The Merlin/Panogear mount was designed for use with astro-telescopes not specifically as a robotic panohead. It offers very good price-performance but it's not the fastest robotic panohead nor can it handle very heavy gear, nor can you position many of the larger DSLRs at the NPP without mofications to the mount. It also has quite a large nadir footprint compared to manual panoheads and the more expensive robotic pano heads.

The Panogear mount can be controlled in two different ways.

One way is to use the free Papywizard software running on a Windows, Mac OSX or Linux PC, either via a wired connection of a Bluetooth wireless connection,or on a Nokia N800 or N810 Intenet Tablet via a wireless Bluetooth connevtion.

The alternative is to use the wired connection Panogear/T&C Touch Controller. This enables the Merlin/Panogear mount to run a lttle faster in some circumstances.

When shooting spherical panos you use the Papywizard software in Preset mode, this shoots a user (pre)defined pattern enabling you to have fewer shots in rows approaching the nadior and zenith rathetr thasnhooting a simple regular grid/matrix.

The Panogear/T&C Touch Comtroller automatically calculates optimised shooting patterns for Mosiac and Sphericals based on parameters eneterd for the camera/lens setup you are using.

......

If you have the budget and would like a robotic head specifically designed for pano shooting then take a look look at the upcoming Panoneed robotic head from T&C, or the Seitz VRDrive 2, or the MKPanomachine 8.

The Gigapan range of robotic heads are not designed to shoot spherical panos.

"I thought PS Remote could do that?" I think I said it wrong. What I now do is pointing the camera with my nodal ninja, press F8 on my laptop, PS remote lets my G10 take 3 photo's with different shuttertimes, I turn the camera to the next angle and repeat.

What advantage does that offer over the built ib AEB functionalty of the G10?

"What lens(es) do you have available for these cameras?"For the Canon a standard one, 18mm (cannot say which one exactly, it's at work)Nikon: 16-85mm 1:3.5-5.6G ; 50mm f/1.8D ; 70-300mm 1:4.5-5.6G and 300mm f/4D

Hmmmm...even with the shortest focal length amongst these you are going to need quite a lot of images to cover 360x180. But I gues syou know that as you are used to shooting with the G10.

I do both outdoor and indoor, with the g10 that is not a problem, because I always shoot with the camera at the nodal point.

Why are we now focussing discussion on using a DSLR rather than your G10?

"What advantage does that offer over the built ib AEB functionalty of the G10?"I thought that it gives more control, you can take more pictures (instead of 3) and bigger steps. Also you can simply lock the av and the shuttertime.

"Hmmmm...even with the shortest focal length amongst these you are going to need quite a lot of images to cover 360x180. But I gues syou know that as you are used to shooting with the G10."Indeed, I have to make 24 pictures to go around.

"Why are we now focussing discussion on using a DSLR rather than your G10?"I was just stating the situation as it is for now.

RobertV. wrote:"What advantage does that offer over the built ib AEB functionalty of the G10?"I thought that it gives more control, you can take more pictures (instead of 3) and bigger steps. Also you can simply lock the av and the shuttertime.

"Hmmmm...even with the shortest focal length amongst these you are going to need quite a lot of images to cover 360x180. But I gues syou know that as you are used to shooting with the G10."Indeed, I have to make 24 pictures to go around.

"Why are we now focussing discussion on using a DSLR rather than your G10?"I was just stating the situation as it is for now.

OK - so my question is would you prefer to use the G10 or do you want to use one of the two DSLRs with Merlin/Panogear??

Since it seems unlikley that your budget will run to purchasing the Promote control device which is the best way to enable extended range expsoure bracketing with either the Canon 550D or the Nikon D7000, then your exposure bracketing options are going to be limited to whatever the camera provides via AEB, or some other means of extending the exposure bracketing that's compatible with Papywizard.

Georg has already mentioned the MagicLantern firmware add-in for the Canon 550D.

Papywizard offers a number of different means of triggering the shutter - see screenshot for list of shutter plug-ins

For example it can use Breeze systems DSLR Remote Pro and NK Remote to trigger the shutter under the control of Papywizard when Papywizard is run on a Windows PC and the camera is tethered to the PC. But would your budget run to purchasing this software as well as the Merlin/Panogear mount and Bluetooth adapter?

Looking at the docs for DSLR Remote Pro, NK Remote and PS Remote I think you could probably use this feature with PS Remote as well with the G10.

Since you already use PS remote it may be worth a try before going further down the road towards the purchase of a robotic panohead.

search internet for "magic lantern"I found similar "hack" for my Canon EOS400D which get loaded from CF card only (so switch off and put in a emty new CF card and orig Firmware from Canon is still there) and here more than 3 brackets should also be possible for your Canon 550D... the magic lantern is mainly done for video, but has also some gadgets for photography users....

I put the ML on my 5D2 last week. ItÂ´s a very, very clever piece of software-engineering. Now i can do 9-step bracketing, automated focus-stacking, have a vectorscope- and waveform displayed (for video) and it provides "HDR-Video" . . instead of 25fps with 100ISO you shoot 50fps: 1st frame with ISO100, 2nd frame ISO 800. Then you process it with a special plugin in FinalCut X Pro to a usual 25fps video . . but with a wider dynamic-range than you can do with usual 25fps.

That works fine - as long as you avoid too fast panning the camera. ItÂ´s rather in an experimental stage of course . . . but great.

The MagicLantern hack is absolutely great - and itÂ´s safe: it resides on the card and is loaded additionally to your cameraÂ´s firmware at the start. So it neither conflicts with the original cameraÂ´s software nor does it harm your camera - you can stop it working by just formatting your card.

I have one complaining: it makes my expensive PromoteControl redundant . . .

The currency is euro's. (but I can always save and wait till I do have enough)The G10 compability is a must, traveling as light as possible.Ok, I will try out papywizard. So I have to see if I can get my G10 working with papywizard, and if so, it is possible to connect my g10 with the panogear to my pc with the bluetooth connector?

The currency is euro's. (but I can always save and wait till I do have enough)The G10 compability is a must, traveling as light as possible.Ok, I will try out papywizard. So I have to see if I can get my G10 working with papywizard, and if so, it is possible to connect my g10 with the panogear to my pc with the bluetooth connector?

Thanks again for your help and patience!

As I understand it the G10 uses the same wired remote as the 350D and 400D and 450D - is that correct?

If so then your will be able to control the shutter via the Snap port on the Merlin/Panogear mount out-of-the-box with the same cable used for those DSLRs. The standard (non Panogear branded) Merlin mount comes with a suitable cable.

I read that the G10 also supports a IR remote, so you could alternatively use a GentLED Trigger via the Merlin/Panogear Snap connector if you wish - I use one for my Nikon D40 that doesn't support a wired remote:http://www.gentles.ltd.uk/gentled/trigger.htm

Of course you would be limited to the sthe G10's AEB capability in terms of exposure bracketing.

If instead for whaetver reason you want to try and control the camera shutter using PSRemote under control of Papywizard then you will need two connections between the Windows PC running Papywizard and the Merlin/Panogear mount. A wired or Bluetooth wireless connection to control the mount; and a second (USB) connection between the PC and the camera to control the shutter using PSRemote (as you have now when using PSRemote with the G10 on the NN3). This makes for a rather clumsy setup as Georg has mentioned.

The 'cleanest' setup is to have Papywizard control the camera shutter directly via the Merlin/Panogear Snap port, and to use a wireless Bluettoth connection between the Merlin/Panogear mount and whatever platform you choose to host Papywizard.

The smallest and most portable Papywizard host platform is a Nokia N800 or N810 Internet tablet. They use a Bluetooth connection to the Merlin/Panogear mount. You can pick up used models on eBay relatively cheaply these days. The N810 is said to have a display that a bit more readable outdoors.

If you think your budget can stretch to it then you should also consider the Panogear T&C Touch Controller as an alternative to Papywizard; although it uses a (short) wired connection it is quite small and lightweight and it's said to be easier to use 'in the field'.

............Another issue...

The Canon G10 has an offset tripod socket.

You will have to think about how you will mount the camera on the Merlin/Panogear mount to accommodate that and attain NPP.

Well, this is the information I need for now.The connection is indeed the same. I'll try that first, then psremote.If I buy the panogear I need to buy the cable pack. If I buy the merlin mount elsewhere, the cable is included?

"The Canon G10 has an offset tripod socket." Indeed, I had to buy a special part for the Nodal Ninja to correct the offset.

So:G10>trigger cable>Pano mount>bluetooth transmitter>N810 or small laptop (I have an asus eee pc with bluetooth) which both support papywizard.

RobertV. wrote:Well, this is the information I need for now.The connection is indeed the same. I'll try that first, then psremote.If I buy the panogear I need to buy the cable pack. If I buy the merlin mount elsewhere, the cable is included?

The cable was included with my standard Merlin mount. I purchased this long before the Panogear branded products were marketed by Kolor and SkiVR.

The asus eee did run XP, but last week I upgraded it to W7. I can always go back to XP.

No need.

I have got the T-adapter II, my upper rail is set at 8.2cm and the lower one at 7.9cm

Have you thought about how you will atttach the G10 in portrait orientation to the Merlin/Panogear mount?

Unlike the NN3/4/5, the vertical arm of the Merlin/Panogear is not adjustable in relation to the center of rotation on the yaw axis.

Using the standard rail - which you can't as it stands because it assumes that the tripod mount is in-line with the lens axis - the max. dimension that can be accommodated between base of the camera and centre of the lens aperture is 40mm without further modification of the rail and/or the dovetail clamp.

I found some info that suggest that the dimension from base of camera to bcentre of lens axis on the G11 is approx. 29mm - if the G10 is the same you should have no problems.

Autopano Pro (APP) or Giga (APG) are better if you are using a Panogear/Merlin robotic pano head (or a Seitz VRDrive2, or a T&C Panoneed).

Why? Because both Papywizard and the Touch Controller can record an XML format data file of the shooting positions and bracketing setup and other shoot info.

This data file can be read using the APP/APG Papywizard Import wizard and the information about shooting positions enables APP/APG to place 'featureless' images in the stitched pano which would otherwise be left orphaned for lack of features on which to assign control points to link images.

When shooting with longer focal length lenses - and your widest/shortest on the G10 is 28mm (35mm equiv) I believe - and that's when people might choose to use a robotic pano head rather than a manual pano head, then because the FOV of each image is smaller you are quite likely to end up with some 'featureless' images in your image set - such as plain blue sky, or plain whilte walls or ceiling and so on. The XML format data file generated by Papywizard or the Touch Controller and used by APP/APG can handle this issue but (as far as I know) PTGui has no similar capability.

"I found some info that suggest that the dimension from base of camera to bcentre of lens axis on the G11 is approx. 29mm - if the G10 is the same you should have no problems."

I have to correct for about 22mm to get the G10 alligned (with the T-adapter), is that what you mean?

"When shooting with longer focal length lenses - and your widest/shortest on the G10 is 28mm (35mm equiv) I believe - then you are quite likely to end up with some 'featureless' images in your image set - such as plain blue sky, or plain whilte walls or ceiling and so on. The XML format data file generated by Papywizard or the Touch Controller and used by APP/APG can handle this issue but (as far as I know) PTGui has no similar capability."

That's exactly the problem I have now (with ptgui), it's a shame really, that ptgui doesn't understand that each set of three pictures should be placed next to eachother... Sometimes I find pieces of the floor on the roof!