Imperial Painter is a bold, new creation that takes the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo to a new level. One of the most important aspects of the deck is that it doesn't rely solely on Grinding an opponent's entire library to win the game, but rather plays a slew of control elements that when paired with Painter's Servant can seriously rough up an opponent's permanent foundation. The deck utilizes a certain Portal Three Kingdoms creature (Imperial Recruiter) to tutor for the Servant or any other creature in your deck. This allows for outstanding consistency and the ability to put heat on an opponent early. There have been many incarnations of this unique archetype (including R/u), but the Mono Red version is typically referred to as the 'stock variant.'

For reference:

A 2008 Report from Hadley (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?10129-Report-Imperial-Painter-Finals-at-Hadley-6-28-08).
An Original Article about Imperial Painter (http://www.classicquarter.com/articles/030_080820.asp).

This is a strange deck to say the least. It can play like: Combo, Aggro, Control, or a combination of any. With Painter's Servant in play, your Blast effects become instant-speed Vindicates and countermagic at the cost of one red mana. That seems pretty good. Ultimately, if your opponent does run blue, you already have a leg-up in the match. For some people, that might seem risky (running main-deck Blasts). It's important to realize that in essence you are taking a small chance with those cards at face value. But as the games goes on, they become more and more relevant, even if your opponent is in not playing blue.

There are some issues the deck faces, however. The deck plays off the opening hand and your mulligan strategy. This can be risky at times, but the reward can be plentiful. The inclusion of Imperial Recruiter sets your hand up without Painter so you can adapt to the game-state. However, the incredible dollar value of Imperial Recruiter can also be prohibitive to getting all of the deck together too, as they play a key role in the basic structure in which the deck exists. As the years have progressed, the value of this card has increased exponentially due in large part to its scarcity and utility in another archetype abusing its ability: Aluren. If you can get your hands on Recruiters, you can pretty much create this entire deck.

I've had some thoughts about how the deck performs without Painter's Servant. You'd think it plays almost identical to Dragon Stompy, and it does in the sense that you want to deplete your hand and overwhelm your opponent with big creatures. This deck, however, seems to want to setup and establish board position and control more so than the latter. Dropping turn one Magus for a lot of other decks can be the game. It's important to know when to play your threats and the order in which you play them. If you can establish a dominating board presence by using Blast effects to knock off potentially dangerous threats, you can clear a path for the basic combo do 'go off' at any time. However, seriously contemplate when you want to use your Blasts, as those are the cards that completely transform a game because of their versatility with painter's Servant in play. Be careful firing them off just because you can.

Simian Spirit Guide and Pyroblast/R.E.B. seems to be quite an efficient combination. Most opponents would assume that because you are playing all red cards you have absolutely no response to anything they play when you're tapped out (i.e. Stifle for the Dreadnought or storming into Diminishing Returns). This bastardization of Force of Will is certainly effective and can stun your opponent when they think the game is already won.

Consistency is key, and without it, this archetype might not exist if it weren't for Imperial Recruiter. The ability to search through your library and find any creature (in this deck, anyways) that you want is truly powerful. One of the great things about Imperial Recruiter is that he allows you to attack and block. That can be critical when you consider the importance of staving off an early Lackey or stalling for a next-turn win. Your smaller creatures work wonders in staving off large assaults and allowing you to protect your life total and generate more time to find both of your combo pieces. Imperial Recruiter can tutor for every single creature in your deck - sideboard included - so consider what targets are optimal and when they would work best at a given time.

Another interesting thing to take note of is the "three casting-cost" theory the deck uses against Counterbalance. While Imperial Painter already has a suitable amount of counteracting blue-based threats, you play a lot of three mana cards that can really throw off the blue enchantment seeing so much play. This really does help as it pretty much allows for all your creatures to hit the board and cause a variety of damage. You want to be careful, though: Once top hits play, it's important to recognize when to Blast the Balance (i.e. in response to the activation of drawing a card from Top).

Here's an explanation for some key cards included in the main-deck:

Painter's Servant
As the strategy of the deck revolves around this Scarecrow, you want him in play to transform your hand from defensive to offensive, or vice-versa. The basis for which the deck exists.

Grindstone
The "oops, I win" card of the deck. It is not necessary to win with this card alone, but essentially nullifies it from being considered simply a run-of-the-mill (pardon the pun) "Painter's-Grindstone" build. Truly nifty though in certain situations.

Simian Spirit Guide
Suitable for the purpose of either putting threats in play early or disguising your hand in preparation for countermagic activity. He beats, too.

Magus of the Moon
The old adage that "Magus wins games alone" really is true. If you can drop him in play turn one, that spells doom for most decks that run non-basics as their primary source for mana.

Imperial Recruiter
This overly-expensive uncommon from P3K serves you up every creature in your deck. He blocks and beats, and adds a tremendous amount of consistency to a deck which really didn't have any to begin with.

Lightning Bolt
An effective creature-kill card. It knocks off not only early threats, but acts like a finisher in some cases. At one mana, only Swords to Plowshares is better. But the ability to clear the board is too important, especially in the early game.

Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast/Active Volcano
One mana Counterspell/Vindicate with Painter in play. Even without, they still hose blue to the point where it gets annoying. They are simple and effective, especially in a deck which can wash everything the color of your choice, namely, blue.

Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
An extremely potent weapon when it goes online. She has both built in Vindicate and Incinerate at the cost of one and two plus a card, respectively. She serves as a lock component with Painter in play, turning your extra things like land and Moxes into Vindicates. She also gets around and destroys Counterbalance by herself. An absolute house against Merfolk, too.

Overall, the deck seems and plays really competitively. It really has a lot of influence deriving from the current general meta-game. Even against decks that don't run Blue, you have enough permanent destruction and a win-now combo that is proven effective. The archetype has changed over the years, but the concept remains fundamentally intact and just recently performed to a Top Eight appearance at GP: Amsterdam. The deck can truly be frightening in the hands of a skilled pilot, and it looks as though Imperial Painter is here to stay.

Shimster

06-26-2008, 01:18 PM

I strongly recommend to run 7 moon effects (i. e. 4 Magi and 3 Blood Moon). In addition, more than 8 colour dependent are very clunky without a Painter on the board.

I have to say that Shimster's list seems strong in a meta that isn't heavily blue. Your SB, though, seems to turn you into Stompy. What MU does that help in? Also, when do you bring in 3Sphere? Against Thresh? Frankly, that seems awful as you run 8 blasts that are already good against Thresh.

Is Jitte the best Gobs hate you could think of? Won't the board in Grips already?

Joon

06-26-2008, 01:35 PM

I'm testing Top in this deck recently and it works out pretty great for me. Problems with 2-Mana-Lands aren't that big as you can just look two times in the Top to avoid Manaburn. In addition, Top does not slow you down - if you have the combopieces already, then you don't need to play Top. If you don't have them Top is pretty great in finding them. To use Top to an maximum effect I run 5 Fetchies instead of 5 Mountains. Sure, with Magus on the Board they don't shuffle anymore but that's not a problem. The only disadvantage of Fetchies is that Manadenial in form of WastelandStifle actually gets pretty good against you - but as there aren't that many (the number tends to be 0) TempoTresh/StifleNaught decks in my meta so I don't think that I'll get my fetchlands stifled.

First, this deck seems interesting and appears to be able to handle Aggro-Control and Control, but how exactly do you beat combo like Ichorid or TES? It seems like, without sideboarding, that combo would kill before you can really disrupt them. As far as I can see we can only really counter Brainstorm, diminishing returns or Ponder(I believe some lists still run this).

Michael Keller

06-26-2008, 02:09 PM

I strongly recommend to run 7 moon effects (i. e. 4 Magi and 3 Blood Moon). In addition, more than 8 colour dependent are very clunky without a Painter on the board.

I think it's a good idea to avoid the seven Moon effects. Blood Moon isn't really a business spell in the late game and considering you run four main-deck Magus plus Recruiter, that should be sufficient. The original list Okazawa Tatsuya ran had four Blood Moon in the sideboard. I suggest boarding into four more Moons simply because games two and three you typically run into Krosan Grip and it poses an issue whether your opponent wants to expend on Painter or Moon. Magus game one (and into two and three paired with Moon) should be enough I'd think.

As for Ichorid:

Magus shuts down Coliseum and all other resources.
Your Blasts counter Careful Study, Breakthrough, and destroy Narcomoeba and Cephalid Sage.
You play Lightning Bolt.

Seriously, I've played against Ichorid in the majority of my tournament matches and I've never lost a round to it. It's a pretty favorable match even post-board. If they go first and lead off with L.E.D. and Deep Analysis, that can obviously pose an issue unless you have Monkey-Blast.

T.E.S. is another story. It's all about who combos faster. Magus can slow the game down a tad and Blast effects do have some relevance on the important draw spells. Again, you play Lightning Bolt, so assuming your opponent pays half their life in that scenario you can do some damage that way. Just this past weekend I was tapped out against T.E.S. and my opponent was at storm 11 when he proceeded to Diminishing Returns. I Monkey-Blasted it. I'm not saying this happens often, but it shows you have ways of stalling the game and screwing with your opponent's resources in order to win (I ended up winning the round). Bryant and I tested a few times between the decks and it was close to 50/50. But if I'd have to give an advantage I'd say it would go to T.E.S. simply by speed in general. Your sideboard is meta-dependent, so considering my meta has T.E.S. and Ichorid all over the place, you have to adapt. Bryant and I have played this match in tournament action twice, with an even split at 1-1.

And trust me from experience, no matter what you play, when T.E.S. casts Brainstorm, it usually ends bad for you that turn or the next.

DrewliusMaximus

06-27-2008, 01:32 AM

Is Shattering Spree shut down by Chalice @1? If so, I am wondering why it is the sideboard artifact hate of choice. If not, I guess I understand.

One other question: has anyone tried different 1-of creatures? I know Shusher can be good. I also like the idea of 1 SB Silent Arbiter and maybe a Grim Lavamancer.

J.V.

06-27-2008, 03:31 AM

The first copy gets countered, but the replicates go on the stack and are unaffected by Chalice at 1.

Michael Keller

06-29-2008, 02:06 PM

Imperial Painter takes Finals at the big Hadley event in Mass.! See the Tournament Reports and Announcements thread for details!

I have to ask again about Magma Jets in the place of Lightning Bolts. I can't help but think that the Jets' scrying would have helped you in that last game against Survival more than Bolts. And it seems like the Pyrokinesis in the SB could make up for the lost removal ability if needed. Specifically with your newer list, I wonder if more consistent topdecking from Scry in worth giving up one point of burn, especially if Trinisphere will sometimes make both spells cost 3. Obviously you know what you're doing with this deck, so I'm interested in what you think from your experience.

Michael Keller

06-30-2008, 11:38 AM

Here's the problem with Magma Jet over Lightning Bolt:

The curve of this deck is very strange: It has a lot of three casting-cost cards which you play off one red and either a Tomb or City, and SSG which is typically pitched. The only two-cost card you play is Painter, which coincidentally costs two colorless. Now, you can obviously play it with two Mountains out, but you want to try and keep a red open at all times unless you're casting a dude (or Painter off the two mana land, leaving red open for REB effects). Lightning Bolt is just way too good to take out, and it really evened things out and got me to the Finals. The fact it costs one is just too good. The scry is important, but I want the third damage and one less mana more so.

EDIT: And seriously, Trinisphere was a last-day decision. It's just ridiculous how good that card is in the format right now, with combo everywhere. You play accelerators that help you get around it, which makes it even better. It also shuts down control, for the most part. And Magus turn one does win games all-by-him-self. He was MVP of my whole tournament.

Mordenkaynen

06-30-2008, 12:10 PM

How do the deck do vs DS? FS? Stacks? Chalice seems to be dangerous.

Michael Keller

06-30-2008, 12:12 PM

How do the deck do vs DS? FS? Stacks? Chalice seems to be dangerous.

Chalice for one is not dangerous by any means. You can draw or Imperial Recruiter for Jaya Ballard, Task Mage with Painter out and destroy it. Goblin Tinkerer also does the job post-board. You play accelerators, so again, it's not like you can't win the race. You play 14 three-casting cost creatures, and 4 at two-cost with 16 accelerators.

Plus, dropping a boat-load of creatures and swinging each turn helps too.

Mental

06-30-2008, 01:09 PM

Here's the problem with Magma Jet over Lightning Bolt:

The curve of this deck is very strange: It has a lot of three casting-cost cards which you play off one red and either a Tomb or City, and SSG which is typically pitched. The only two-cost card you play is Painter, which coincidentally costs two colorless. Now, you can obviously play it with two Mountains out, but you want to try and keep a red open at all times unless you're casting a dude (or Painter off the two mana land, leaving red open for REB effects). Lightning Bolt is just way too good to take out, and it really evened things out and got me to the Finals. The fact it costs one is just too good. The scry is important, but I want the third damage and one less mana more so.

EDIT: And seriously, Trinisphere was a last-day decision. It's just ridiculous how good that card is in the format right now, with combo everywhere. You play accelerators that help you get around it, which makes it even better. It also shuts down control, for the most part. And Magus turn one does win games all-by-him-self. He was MVP of my whole tournament.

Yeah, I noticed that in your report every time you dropped 3Sphere it would bait a counter, which then would let you drop Servant. However, 3Sphere does seriously shut down blasts. Did that ever create problems for you?

Isn't it time this deck moved to the established forum?

Michael Keller

06-30-2008, 01:16 PM

Yeah, I noticed that in your report every time you dropped 3Sphere it would bait a counter, which then would let you drop Servant. However, 3Sphere does seriously shut down blasts. Did that ever create problems for you?

Isn't it time this deck moved to the established forum?

Not at all. I had no difficulty dropping what I needed. It's funny, Trinisphere almost acts like a pseudo Arcane Laboratory against most decks. It's just I drop 3cc spells off the two mana lands and go for beats. I've Blasted around Trinisphere. It takes a little bit more but nothing too much.

DrewliusMaximus

06-30-2008, 01:24 PM

Those SB Shushers help against Chalice too.

Legend, I was wondering about how 4 MD Trinisphere affected your own spells also. After making that last minute decision, would you keep 4 maindecked, or move some to the SB?

Michael Keller

06-30-2008, 01:27 PM

Those SB Shushers help against Chalice too.

Legend, I was wondering about how 4 MD Trinisphere affected your own spells also. After making that last minute decision, would you keep 4 maindecked, or move some to the SB?

Main-deck Trinisphere all the way. Think of it this way: If you have three mana to get Sphere online turn one, then you have Blast mana then or down the road. Remember, you're not countering anything until turn three or four because of 3Sphere shut-down, so you don't have to worry about it. Plus, turn one 3Sphere, turn two Painter, turn three blow up their land is really solid, especially if you draw into more Blasts.

DrewliusMaximus

06-30-2008, 01:34 PM

So with the 3Spheres and Blasts and everything, does the Storm Combo matchup still need Pyrostatic Pillars pretty badly, or are they just to make the matchup "very favorable"?

I'm asking because as I put this deck together, I want to prepare for The Rock and I'm thinking about using SB slots for that.

Michael Keller

06-30-2008, 01:40 PM

It's really meta dependent. I mean, Pyrostatic Pillar was placed in the board to help fight Storm combo in case you do not draw 3Sphere. I guess you could call it a "win-more" card, but it is as effective as can be when you become Orim's Chanted and can't play anything the rest of the turn. Trinisphere and Blasts should be enough for the most part. This was strictly placed in the board for this large-tournament purpose, as I was anticipating more Storm-based combo decks.

They would be first-cut at any rate.

EDIT: I'm also an advocate of this deck being placed in the Established Forum. It has placed highly in quite a few high-profile tournaments since it's inception, and that has only been in the last two months. I'm for it.

Brushwagg

06-30-2008, 08:46 PM

Is there anything that could replace Recruiter
? I'm thinking that's the biggest thing holding the deck back from seeing major play. I mean 300 plus for a play set of recruiters not to mention the cost of Grindstones, if you don't have them. But the only thing I could even think of was Gamble and it seems kinda meh.

DrewliusMaximus

06-30-2008, 11:17 PM

Before I did the fiscally irresponsible thing and acquired Recruiters, I was thinking about alternatives. I also thought about Gamble, and maybe combining it with Goblin Welder. That turned into a totally different deck though. It seems like a similar Portal-related issue that keeps Faerie Stompy from seeing as much play as it should.

Quick question: how is a boarded-in Gaea's Blessing handled when mulled into the graveyard? Is Faerie Macabre able to remove it before it is shuffled back into the library?

J.V.

06-30-2008, 11:20 PM

Yes, it's trigger goes on the stack when it is discarded then you finish milling your library then the trigger resolves. So you just discard the Macabre then. They still shuffle their library back in but the blessings are removed.

xsockmonkeyx

06-30-2008, 11:24 PM

How cool would it be to search up Ali from Cairo with a Recruiter? That's like a $150 play. I like this deck but hate it's guts, as I will never be able to play it ever. :frown:

Jaiminho

06-30-2008, 11:50 PM

Quick question: how is a boarded-in Gaea's Blessing handled when mulled into the graveyard? Is Faerie Macabre able to remove it before it is shuffled back into the library?

Faerie Macabre is a much worse answer to Gaea's Blessing than Tormod's Crypt. Both are free, except that only the first is uncounterable. It's also true that Tormod's Crypt ends the game right away.

Michael Keller

06-30-2008, 11:55 PM

Faerie Macabre is a much worse answer to Gaea's Blessing than Tormod's Crypt. Both are free, except that only the first is uncounterable. It's also true that Tormod's Crypt ends the game right away.

That may be true. But you can Imperial Recruiter for Faerie Macabre, which is a pseudo-Trinket Mage for Tormod's instead of putting the deck in top-deck mode. Blessing is not an issue. All they'd get is one more turn, and they'd have to be in top-deck mode anyways if they couldn't stop the initial Grind.

And nothing can replace Imperial Recruiters. If you want to play this deck, you've really got to pay to dance.

DrewliusMaximus

07-01-2008, 01:12 PM

Legend, I meant to ask you about this before: have you been happy dropping down to 2 Jayas? I suspected that would work fine, but have you missed the third at all?

Michael Keller

07-01-2008, 02:06 PM

Legend, I meant to ask you about this before: have you been happy dropping down to 2 Jayas? I suspected that would work fine, but have you missed the third at all?

Not at all. Jaya is a very important card in the deck; she serves as a lock component and a finisher. The only problem is, she's a legend (and her cost has two red, which is fine but will sometimes cost you a colorless mana burn off Tomb or City). And with Recruiters, you can always find her if you need her. Since the cut, I've had no issues whatsoever.

As for big creatures, I originally played Triskelion in the board as a one-of. He's not bad, but costs a little much, which is why he was cut.

moOnsteak

07-02-2008, 11:37 AM

I tried Lightning Bolt but never find that card is amazing unless to burn 'kill me' creatures like Lackey, Meddling Mage, and Dark Confidant. .Some monsters like Goyf and Crusher usually get bigger in instant speed when I bolt them. .
I love multifunctional cards so for replacement I'm preparing Dead/Gone, in burns Lackey, Mage, and Bob as well as LB. .bounce Goyf, Crusher (owh yeah, the counter is gone), and even Tombstalker (yes your opponent must pay delve cost again). .unlike LB, this card just bad as finisher. .thought?

Michael Keller

07-02-2008, 12:19 PM

I tried Lightning Bolt but never find that card is amazing unless to burn 'kill me' creatures like Lackey, Meddling Mage, and Dark Confidant. .Some monsters like Goyf and Crusher usually get bigger in instant speed when I bolt them. .
I love multifunctional cards so for replacement I'm preparing Dead/Gone, in burns Lackey, Mage, and Bob as well as LB. .bounce Goyf, Crusher (owh yeah, the counter is gone), and even Tombstalker (yes your opponent must pay delve cost again). .unlike LB, this card just bad as finisher. .thought?

It's generally important to be able to expend only one mana to do three damage to any target. You'd be surprised how small Tarmogoyf ends up being in this match: You play no Enchantments, no Sorceries, no Planeswalkers, Artifacts which are generally placed in the R.F.G. pile, Artifacts which place cards in the R.F.G. pile, Instants, Lands, and Creatures. That should match your opponent's graveyard. And even if Goyf gets to a 4/5, you deal damage and Bolt. Works just as well.

On the flip-side, your Blast effects put anything into your opponent's graveyard. But then again, if you were going to Blast something, you'd probably blast the Goyf.

Michael Keller

07-03-2008, 09:42 PM

I've been considering removing the Vexing Shushers completely from the sideboard. In Hadley, I didn't board them in once and I ended up playing against blue all day. He feels like a "win-more" card, but helps against Chalice. Yet, so does Goblin Tinkerer.

Chalice at one really doesn't hurt the deck a whole lot. It negates the Blast effects in your hand, but you still have Painter and Jaya to handle that.

In reference to the sideboard, I've given some thought to the following cards:

Sirocco: It was originally in my list in preparation for Hadley. It's a really solid choice and puts cards in your opponent's hand (especially in they pack a lot of blue spells) at a premium.

Burnout: This card was in the original list. All it does is replace itself and counters a blue spell. It might be overkill.

Ali from Cairo: Nifty in the right scenario. Against decks like Ichorid and Stompy variants, he can save you until you find an answer. I already play Arbiter, which is strictly better against Ichorid, but Ali saves you from losing.

Aladdin: Stealing artifacts can be fun, but I'd rather destroy them with the much better Tinkerer.

Spinal Villain: Destroying blue creatures can be fun.

As far as the main-deck goes, I'm pretty content with the way the deck is performing, so I don't want to go all out and make abrupt changes with it. I do however, share some concerns with a few selections:

Trinisphere in the Main: It's important to be able to shut down opposing combo such as Ichorid, TES, etc. by getting this card out in the early goings. The rise of these decks paired with the addition of Trinisphere in the main has been huge, as it won me most of my rounds in Hadley. But against more aggressive decks, it can be particularly bad if I'm on the draw and I'm already at a disadvantage creature-wise. I'm teetering on this one. I already run Magus and Blasts, which were effective enough before Hadley. Trinisphere is fantastic, don't get me wrong, but what separates this deck from Dragon Stompy is Seething Song. That makes Trinisphere a hell of a lot better there, as there are more one cost spells here. I'm really thinking about moving this to the board again.

Life Post-Sphere in the Main: I'm tossing around ideas for the four slots if Sphere were to be removed from the main. Originally, I cut these for them:

-2 Active Volcano
-1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
-1 Vexing Shusher

I really want to keep those out as they diluted the original version with too much focus on stopping blue. Eight Blast effects with Jaya and Magus seem and tested sufficient.

Thoughts?

moOnsteak

07-03-2008, 10:37 PM

With budget reason, I choose Fortune Thieve instead of Ali from Cairo :tongue:
I've tested 2-3 Wheel of Fate and surprisingly satisfied with the performance, my 7 new cards will always better than the opponent's thanks to ancient tomb and friends also SSG + Pyro / REB. .

@Mr Legend, I'll go to my local tourney this weekend and unlike your meta, there's almost no combo here so I have no place to say about Trinisphere mainboard (mine contain pyrokinesis on that slot). .
I must agree that Vexing and Active Volcano are overbullet, Jaya simply can solve everything so you can't cut her, she has to show up. .

DrewliusMaximus

07-04-2008, 02:54 AM

After playing with 3Spheres maindecked for a few games, I decided to put them back in the sideboard. They don't allow you to play a Servant and a Blast or multiple Blasts on the same turn, which I don't like.

Legend, I considered Spinal Villain, but I felt like Jaya is always better.

I've only tested #1, but it seemed to work well. I know it has the 2 extra blue-haters, but I tended to get them once I already had a Servant. Still, I understand the concern with too much stuff that relies on targets being blue. For that reason, #2 could be a better choice, as none of those cards are Servant-dependent. I also am beginning to see the logic behind having 3 Jayas: she is awesome with Servant, but doesn't need him, and there is never a problem with the Legendary rule because you can always discard the extra one to use her ability. Additionally, I must say that while Magma Jet should not replace Lightning Bolt, I think it has a place in the deck...it adds quite a bit of consistency, and seems more efficient than Wheel of Fate (I haven't tried Wheel of Fate however).

Michael Keller

07-04-2008, 02:53 PM

After playing with 3Spheres maindecked for a few games, I decided to put them back in the sideboard. They don't allow you to play a Servant and a Blast or multiple Blasts on the same turn, which I don't like.

Legend, I considered Spinal Villain, but I felt like Jaya is always better.

I've only tested #1, but it seemed to work well. I know it has the 2 extra blue-haters, but I tended to get them once I already had a Servant. Still, I understand the concern with too much stuff that relies on targets being blue. For that reason, #2 could be a better choice, as none of those cards are Servant-dependent. I also am beginning to see the logic behind having 3 Jayas: she is awesome with Servant, but doesn't need him, and there is never a problem with the Legendary rule because you can always discard the extra one to use her ability. Additionally, I must say that while Magma Jet should not replace Lightning Bolt, I think it has a place in the deck...it adds quite a bit of consistency, and seems more efficient than Wheel of Fate (I haven't tried Wheel of Fate however).

Wheel of Fate is interesting, but to be honest, I really wouldn't want to drop that against an opponent playing Ichorid. There are a few around here and I played against it twice in Mass.

moOnsteak

07-04-2008, 08:57 PM

Additionally, I must say that while Magma Jet should not replace Lightning Bolt, I think it has a place in the deck...it adds quite a bit of consistency, and seems more efficient than Wheel of Fate (I haven't tried Wheel of Fate however).

When I choose to suspend Wheel of Fate, usually when I have Painter or Recruiter in my opening hand, so assume when suspended is last for two or one, you have prepared Painter ready on board with some protection (ok, at least one) in your hand. .
The time Fate get resolved, probability to get at least 4 mana (to cast grindstone and activate it), Grindstone itself, and more mana plus Blast effect to assist are incredibly high. .

So even against Ichorid especially game 1, it's about probability. .
Or you win this turn, or you let Ichorid draw discard more and then they win. .
Game 2, you can just simply board wheel out for anti-grave. .

1. I found that 3 Jayas was a good number. She is too useful once you go into topdecking mode to have less than 3 in my opinion, not to mention that the Legendary drawback doesn't really apply to her because of her abilities.

2. After experimenting with several different ratios of Lightning Bolt:Magma Jet:Active Volcano, I found that 3: 3: 1 worked very well.
-I didn't notice that I needed more than 3 Bolts.
-Magma Jets got me out of trouble many times and helped me keep pace with the opponent (especially when I boarded in 3Spheres). Additionally, it helped my decisions in some cases by letting me see what I was going to draw. There were a significant number of instances where Magma Jet helped me stabilize my mana situation by either finding the land I needed or scrying away unnecessary ones.
-I chose the single Active Volcano over a 4th Bolt because the vast majority of the time I drew it, I either already had a Servant, or I already had Jaya (which made it somewhat irrelevant). On a few occasions, the Volcano allowed me to "blast" a permanent and keep a real Blast in hand for countering, or "blast" 2 permanents in one turn, basically destroying my opponents manabase.

3. I'm still trying to decide on all the sideboard cards. I liked having extra Blood Moons just because they up the chances of shutting down many decks in the first 2 turns, but I'm also thinking about Pithing Needles. One specific concern I have is helping my matchup against Rock-style decks. What are some other good options?

If I can make time during a business trip next weekend, I'm going to bring this to a tournament. Any ideas and feedback are appreciated.

Dosan_the_Wisest_Leaf

07-06-2008, 06:21 AM

My take without testing this deck. Pretty janky I know but hey what the heck.

(No sideboard because until I know whether its worth making this deck )

Michael Keller

07-06-2008, 09:21 PM

After playing this deck the past week in the local Syracuse metagame, I came to several conclusions about the deck:

1.) A weakness was exposed in the finals of the Hadley event late last month when I lost with the deck against Survival. Game one was much closer, but game two was a blowout and there wasn't much I could do when it mattered most except top-deck.

2.) I was soundly beaten by several green aggro-based decks (including a Constructed Elf deck, 2-0) this past weekend at the Comix Zone. As strange as that may sound, it gave me a window of opportunity for improvement.

Here is a short list of cards that are generally considered bad for Imperial Painter:

Krosan Grip
Gaea's Blessing
Umazawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice

These cards posed a serious problem which I'm certain was a pre-conceived notion after the deck did so well. It's important to address these threats and how we deal with them.

After sitting down for a long time and doing some serious adjusting, I figured out some answers which may or may not prove to be ultimately effective against these particular threats. In my list, there have been major subtractions and additions which have improved on the deck's worst match-ups, as today I went 3-1 in a tournament, more-so facing my (previously) absolute worst match-ups. Here are the cards I've removed, as they ultimately proved to be less effective and not "business enough" against the general threat of aggressive-based decks.

-4 Trinisphere
-1 Lightning Bolt

Vexing Shusher
I sold this card short of the main-deck not that long ago. I removed a copy from the main and placed all four in the sideboard. I was wrong. It is especially important to be able to stop your most important spells in hand from being countered off Chalice and Counterbalance. Those cards aren't generally a problem for this deck, because most of your spells cost three mana. However, there will be times when you have a hand of two or three Blasts and a Grindstone and your opponent drops Chalice. This creature is too important to forget, as I've reinstated his position in the main build as a one-of.

+1 Vexing Shusher

Magma Jet
Quite simply, this card allows you to setup your next draw(s) so you are able to draw into something good when you need it. It's a burn spell, which gives help against aggro as well. The scrye is the real reason for its inclusion, and that is a special necessity the deck was lacking.

+3 Magma Jet

Fledgling Dragon
Most of the time, I was lacking a bomb which I couldn't drop against some bad-ass opposing creatures. The deck needed more "oomph", as in to say, more firepower. This creature, aside from being a potential Shivan Dragon for four mana upon casting, can more importantly be Imperial Recruiter-ed for anytime when you need him most. He is now the official alternate win condition of my deck and provides a much-needed beating instead of 1/1's and 2/2's going the distance.

+1 Fledgling Dragon

Sideboard
Your sideboard is ultimately meta-dependent, but there is one card in particular I'd like you to take notice in:

Viashino Heretic
This guy is great. Not only does he fit the curve, but he provides unique assistance because of his ass. S.o.F.I and Jitte once an opposing critter hits can spell trouble for a Goblin Tinkerer, as he will die from either the counters or damage. Heretic can withstand that shot and he also nails your opponent for some much needed damage. I play two in my board.

Pyrokinesis
I upped the count to four in my board after realizing how genuinely good this card is. It clears the path, what else is there to say?

All of these subtractions and additions have vastly improved the match against more aggressive-based decks. Now, the deck has the capability to:

1.) Dodge Chalice of the Void.
2.) Win the game with bigger creatures and using the attack phase more effectively.
3.) Manipulate your drawing scheme so you can draw something relevant.

These are areas which the deck was sorely lacking, and have improved upon.

moOnsteak

07-07-2008, 10:29 AM

Fledgling Dragon
Most of the time, I was lacking a bomb which I couldn't drop against some bad-ass opposing creatures. The deck needed more "oomph", as in to say, more firepower. This creature, aside from being a potential Shivan Dragon for four mana upon casting, can more importantly be Imperial Recruiter-ed for anytime when you need him most. He is now the official alternate win condition of my deck and provides a much-needed beating instead of 1/1's and 2/2's going the distance.

+1 Fledgling Dragon

All of these subtractions and additions have vastly improved the match against more aggressive-based decks. Now, the deck has the capability to:

1.) Dodge Chalice of the Void.
2.) Win the game with bigger creatures and using the attack phase more effectively.
3.) Manipulate your drawing scheme so you can draw something relevant.

These are areas which the deck was sorely lacking, and have improved upon.

Good points except I can't agree with this one. .
- Must be tutorable by Recruiter (check)
- Favorable casting cost (check)
- As a good beater (not really)
In the deck which contain so few cards that have low potency to put into graveyard (City of Traitor, LB, Magma Jet, and Blast), it's rare to find your graveyard hit the 7 number. .

If you really looking for a beater, I suggest for Shard Phoenix, Savage Firecat, or Tauren Mauler. .

Michael Keller

07-07-2008, 11:17 AM

Shard Phoenix would wipe your entire board, so he's not that great. Plus, his buyback is RRR, which isn't generally a problem, but can be at times. In the list of cards you posted that hit the yard, that's 18 cards plus whatever creatures you control get nixed (+19), and Fledgling is a one-of. It shouldn't be that much of an issue.

I am also considering putting in a couple fetches to help out with that problem. I'm still not certain yet if I should, as dropping a fetch post-City then having it get Stifled is really bad.

I'd be open for more options if another creature came by, but this one is quite effective. Tutoring for Shivan is good and I've never finished a game without Thresh if I would've had the mana to cast Fledgling late game anyways.

I playtested this deck last week.
First I was wondering why weren't more people interested by that deck.
Now I know... this is one of the most boring deck ever, plus it isn't even that strong.
The other versions are way more interesting (the monoBlue and the GBU one).

Peter_Rotten

07-09-2008, 10:34 AM

Thread moved to established. Be sure to check out this deck's performance in the UK!

Skeggi

07-09-2008, 11:20 AM

Thread moved to established. Be sure to check out this deck's performance in the UK!

And on a side-note, I'm affraid we'll soon be seing this monster in the DTBF.

marit

07-09-2008, 12:24 PM

I playtested this deck last week.
First I was wondering why weren't more people interested by that deck.
Now I know... this is one of the most boring deck ever, plus it isn't even that strong.
The other versions are way more interesting (the monoBlue and the GBU one).

I doubt it, it probably receives less atention because few people want to buy a playset of recruiters, which are essential to the deck, and if you're never going to play the deck, why post about it? That's what i guess the general mindset is.

Mr.C

07-09-2008, 01:08 PM

Darn, I 'only' have three recruiters. Does it take a serious consistency hit with three? Should I bite the bullet and get a fourth?

Mental

07-09-2008, 01:16 PM

Darn, I 'only' have three recruiters. Does it take a serious consistency hit with three? Should I bite the bullet and get a fourth?

Yes. Recruiter is probably the best card in this deck.

Michael Keller

07-09-2008, 03:56 PM

Yes. Recruiter is probably the best card in this deck.

Well, that all depends. Just about every card in the deck is situational. Turn one is certainly key, and there's no better play in Imperial Painter than Magus of the Moon on the first turn.

EDIT: Awesome the deck got moved to Established!

Mr Wiggl3s

07-09-2008, 04:38 PM

crypt is a required card, mb or sb and most of yalls lists dont have it at all.

Zach Tartell

07-09-2008, 04:42 PM

crypt is a required card, mb or sb and most of yalls lists dont have it at all.

Crypt is counterable. Faerie Macabre is fetchable with Recruiter, and can't be Forced.

Mr Wiggl3s

07-09-2008, 04:49 PM

Crypt is counterable. Faerie Macabre is fetchable with Recruiter, and can't be Forced.

Ah i see.

That means we have to MB at least 3 of those spirits..

Wereodile

07-09-2008, 05:54 PM

I see the Painter Servant + Grindstone combo in a lot of decks in my area, everything from red based Imperial Painter right down to B/U mill.

Is the Red Imperial Painter version the strongest application? That Painter + Countertop list that was posted eariler looks like it could have some potential, as the tutor options in blue should speed up your combo or at least make it more consistent.

Skeggi

07-09-2008, 06:00 PM

Is the Red Imperial Painter version the strongest application? That Painter + Countertop list that was posted eariler looks like it could have some potential, as the tutor options in blue should speed up your combo or at least make it more consistent.

I haven't had much experience with PainterStone yet, but I can tell you, I played against a TarmoTop version with a build-in PainterStone, and it got whooped by my stax. Imperial Painter seems the way to go, because it really abuses all the potential of Painter (which also makes it very painter-dependant, but there are ways to protect it).

DrewliusMaximus

07-09-2008, 06:28 PM

Imperial Painter definitely abuses Servant the most, and is most dependent on it. That's why having 4 Recruiters is so important. Speaking of dependence on Servant, has anyone seen Scarcrone just spoiled from Eventide? It is tutorable, it reanimates Servant (also making a reusable chump blocker), and can be a draw engine.

Michael Keller

07-09-2008, 07:06 PM

I playtested this deck last week.
First I was wondering why weren't more people interested by that deck.
Now I know... this is one of the most boring deck ever, plus it isn't even that strong.
The other versions are way more interesting (the monoBlue and the GBU one).

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

Unfortunately, I don't know which planet you live on because last time I checked blowing up your opponents' permanents with one-mana instants seems pretty fun to me.

This deck has more large tournament placings than any other Painter build in existence, so calling it "not that strong" shows you've done no research on the matter and simply blurted out ignorance for the sake of blurting out ignorance. The deck is inherently powerful and while there certainly are other lists which are strong, this variation has garnered the most attention because of how well it has done in such a short period of time.

Also, I really like that new Scarecrone creature. He'll definitely find a place in my build. I have to fish for a foil one before the 19th!

EDIT: Oh wait, damn it won't be legal. Oh well.

DrewliusMaximus

07-09-2008, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Sea R Hill View Post
I playtested this deck last week.
First I was wondering why weren't more people interested by that deck.
Now I know... this is one of the most boring deck ever, plus it isn't even that strong.
The other versions are way more interesting (the monoBlue and the GBU one).

I've heard others badmouth this deck too despite its results so far. And while time will tell whether this deck is really good or not, I think there are a few reasons people might doubt this deck:
1. MWS shuffling sucks and gives people the wrong impression of many decks, like this one.
2. Some people aren't used to having to mulligan as much you have to with a "Stompy" manabase.
3. Because this deck is still new and kind of unique, many people don't know how to play it. I'm certainly still learning.

The fact of the matter is that the deck has shown results multiple times. We can't expect to ever see as many Top 8's as we would if Recruiter were actually obtainable, but if this deck continues to place then we'll know what the deal is.

As far as Imperial Painter being boring, I couldn't disagree more. Not only is blowing up permanents fun like Legend said, this deck can play out several different ways. It can combo, it can control, and it can even be traditionally aggressive. It is not one dimensional at all.

moOnsteak

07-09-2008, 08:36 PM

I've heard others badmouth this deck too despite its results so far. And while time will tell whether this deck is really good or not, I think there are a few reasons people might doubt this deck:
1. MWS shuffling sucks and gives people the wrong impression of many decks, like this one.
2. Some people aren't used to having to mulligan as much you have to with a "Stompy" manabase.
3. Because this deck is still new and kind of unique, many people don't know how to play it. I'm certainly still learning.

The fact of the matter is that the deck has shown results multiple times. We can't expect to ever see as many Top 8's as we would if Recruiter were actually obtainable, but if this deck continues to place then we'll know what the deal is.

As far as Imperial Painter being boring, I couldn't disagree more. Not only is blowing up permanents fun like Legend said, this deck can play out several different ways. It can combo, it can control, and it can even be traditionally aggressive. It is not one dimensional at all.

Totally agree, this's the only deck where Jaya can show all her fun ability and I really enjoy to use her. If this plan is broken, combo plan could simply solve it in a split second.

For who has thought this build is boring, remember, there's no much options to choose a deck that can win with so multiple way like Imperial Painter. .

EDIT :
Just see about Scarecrone, wohoo, amazing. .
Painter recurrable is good, also it can be additional draw for every turn if you hit 5 mana. .

Skeggi

07-10-2008, 04:10 AM

3. Because this deck is still new and kind of unique, many people don't know how to play it. I'm certainly still learning.

On the other hand, people also have no experience in playing against your deck. Being a Stax player myself, I'm hoping Chalice@1 will really screw you. Does it? Or do you have some card up your sleeve against it?

Mr.C

07-10-2008, 04:17 AM

Yes. Recruiter is probably the best card in this deck.

Darn. Hope it doesn't get banned for being a tutor.

Skeggi

07-10-2008, 05:08 AM

Darn. Hope it doesn't get banned for being a tutor.

Just like Mystical Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Worldly Tutor and all the wishes got banned. Oh wait, they didn't.

sankido

07-10-2008, 07:10 AM

@a legend:
it would be very helpful if you could post your actual deck list.

I tried to compete in a tournament with this deck and I went 2-3

I've lost against:

Eva Green
Goblins
White Weenie

I found out two things about that deck:
1. Discard is very bad news, especially if Extirpate is around. But even without Extirpate you will be slowed down extremely by discard effects.

2. I have always problems in finding that damn Grindstone if it's not in my starting hand. Mulliganing for it doesn't seems to be a good idea, cause I'm already quite fast in topdeck mode. Against aggressive decks I run run out of solutions before I can go into combo.

I'm thinking about adding Enlightened Tutor. Any suggestions?

Skeggi

07-10-2008, 08:26 AM

Or Trinket Mage, this way you splash blue, which might be a better color to splash (academy ruins n stuff), plus you can Imperial Recruit the Trinket Mage (yes, that makes the Imperial Recruiter a tutor for a tutor, but still).

Edit:
Here's a list with Enlightened Tutor which top8ed: clicky (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17547) must say that that's only 1 out of 5 Imperial Painter lists that top8ed and it had the worst result of them all (7th), but then again, ofcourse it's a very young concept :)

Edit2:
Here are lists with Trinket Painter: Clicky (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Trinket+Painter&format=Legacy) which are apparently more succesful, because they have 12 top 8 entries instead of 5, and even a number 1 spot. But overall it's a completely different deck, but I think you can easily combine the 2. (Think of it: if everything is blue, everything ditches to FoW)

sankido

07-10-2008, 10:28 AM

Yeah of course. Trinket Mage is a good suggestion and it has been done a good job in many other successful decks. But I think in this special deck Enlightened Tutor is more effective because a) it cost less and b) it let you tutor up either of your two combo parts and c) it can tutor for Blood moon (obviously you have to play them over magus)

The biggest problem I see is the mana base. I could imagine to swap the Simian Spirit Guides with Lotus Petals and maybe adding Manamorphose.

moOnsteak

07-10-2008, 10:28 AM

I found out two things about that deck:
1. Discard is very bad news, especially if Extirpate is around. But even without Extirpate you will be slowed down extremely by discard effects.

2. I have always problems in finding that damn Grindstone if it's not in my starting hand. Mulliganing for it doesn't seems to be a good idea, cause I'm already quite fast in topdeck mode. Against aggressive decks I run run out of solutions before I can go into combo.

I'm thinking about adding Enlightened Tutor. Any suggestions?

1. Yes, that's why this deck still need to be improved. .
2. There's Lightning Bolt, Magma Jet, or Pyrokinesis maindeck if your meta just like mine (full of aggro), it'd be enough. .
3. No no, splashing is really not an option in this build. .

Skeggi

07-10-2008, 10:31 AM

3. No no, splashing is really not an option in this build. .

I don't see why not; at least it's worth a shot.

Raider Bob

07-10-2008, 10:43 AM

This deck has issues with MONO-Colored Decks(That are not Blue)

Goblins - Mono Red doesn't get shut down by Magus and can race with the best of them.

White Weenie - Mono White doesn't get shut down by Magus and can race with the best of them.

Eva Green - Is basically Mono-Black with a lot of Discard and some LD, this is probably the worst nightmare for this deck.

At the statement you can never find the Grindstone to win, Legend had a grindstone Win in 3 games in his 9 Matches at the last big tourny he ran this deck in. I am not surprised you went 2-3 with the matchups you faced, I think Legend runs Silent Arbitor to Slow down Goblins coupled with Trinsphere you can slow down Gobo's for awhile.

In a Meta Environment where Thresh, Icorid, Storm, Bad Mana Bases are all around this deck wins on the back of Magus of the Moon and Trinisphere, oh and do not underestimate the power of Jaya.

moOnsteak

07-10-2008, 11:33 AM

^

Also Ali from Cairo (or Fortune Thief) helps you to not being crushed before you find all combo pieces (Grindstone everyone?). You just need to protect him/her beside the Painter with your 8 blast spell. .

Why splashing isn't available? Because this deck manabase can't allow that happen. .What do you expect to produce white mana? Plateau can't do that after Magus resolve (there's just 4 anyway, except you'd to run any red fetch or Sacred Foundry, ouchh), and basic Plain is a waste in full of mono red spell except for those white tutor (I'd run StP if I can solve that manabase problem). .Chrome Mox also don't provide any answer. .So it's a big NO. .

Skeggi

07-10-2008, 11:40 AM

Chrome Mox also don't provide any answer. .So it's a big NO. .

Well actually, after Painter is in play, you can play Chrome Mox making blue mana, making Trinket Mage available...But I guess this is too far around. Perhaps this deck needs to find a way not to be moon-dependant and then you can also think about splashing a color.

I'm just saying, perhaps Imperial Painter isn't a mono-red deck. Here's a list I just did from the top of my head:

Absolutely not saying this list will pwn, just throwing up a ball here, see if someone can juggle with it.

DrewliusMaximus

07-10-2008, 12:26 PM

On the other hand, people also have no experience in playing against your deck. Being a Stax player myself, I'm hoping Chalice@1 will really screw you. Does it? Or do you have some card up your sleeve against it?

For Chalice, there are several guys to tutor for: Vexing Shusher, Goblin Tinkerer, Viashino Heretic, and if Servant is already out, Jaya will do the trick.

I've lost against:
* Eva Green
* Goblins
* White Weenie
I found out two things about that deck:
1. Discard is very bad news, especially if Extirpate is around. But even without Extirpate you will be slowed down extremely by discard effects.
2. I have always problems in finding that damn Grindstone if it's not in my starting hand. Mulliganing for it doesn't seems to be a good idea, cause I'm already quite fast in topdeck mode. Against aggressive decks I run run out of solutions before I can go into combo.
I'm thinking about adding Enlightened Tutor. Any suggestions?

I've decided to go with Magma Jets over Lightning Bolt because they provide resilience against discard, make it easier to find the Grindstone, and generally help you keep pace with the opponent (they also avoid Chalice). Unfortunately, Extirpate is a killer. The only thing I can think of right now is using Macabre on your own Servants/Grindstones in the graveyard if you had to. Hopefully Scarecrone from Eventide will help against discard (and to a lesser degree Extirpate).
Because the Magma Jets are less efficient removal than the Bolts, I took Legend's idea and put Pyrokinesis in the SB, which helps against alot of decks, especially Goblins. Also, Silent Arbiter in the SB would help against White Weenie and Goblins.
I'm still of the opinion that this deck should be mono-colored, but it's always worth it to test new stuff.

Michael Keller

07-10-2008, 02:29 PM

I'm really disliking four Chrome Mox the more and more I play this deck. It promotes card disadvantage, and while it can allow you to play out a turn one Magus, I just don't think the deck really needs four. We already run 4 SSG and 8 double-lands, so there's no need to push the envelope here. More often than not, I hate ditching an important card in my opening hand to satisfy the Mox unless I really have to.

To fit the curve, I've ended the suspense with Magma Jet. It serves dual purpose by doing two damage and scrying, but really, it's all about the scrye. It doesn't kill an early Goyf as good as Bolt can and it's a one-shot deal. I've also restored the fourth Bolt instead of the fourth Chrome Mox. The deck runs off three to four lands, and I haven't seen any problems after the cut.

Another issue that came along is Fledgling Dragon. In testing, I actually did find that getting to Thresh can be a problem (as stated earlier). One of the cards that can give this deck problems is Nimble Mongoose with Thresh. You can always double-block, but I never feel comfortable doing that unless the situation calls for it. I've actually gone ahead and included one Dragon Whelp in the main. He has an ass of three and is a 2/3 Shivan (Recruiterable). I ended up liking him as a draw over the Fledgling Dragon in testing.

With this is mind, I went ahead and made these changes to the deck:

-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Fledgling Dragon
-3 Magma Jet

+1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Dragon Whelp
+3 Sensei's Divining Top

As far as the sideboard is concerned, this is currently the list I run:

My metagame is beginning to evolve into a more aggressive place to play, so I need to adapt accordingly. These changes have allowed me to improve my draws, play bombs, and ease up on the slight card disadvantage. I was considering adding fetches, but I don't really like them with City of Traitors and then Stifle. Things like that happen in larger events and keeping the red sources basic (and with Magus, your other lands become Mountains too) is important. They're obviously great with Top, but I don't know yet.

Maveric78f

07-10-2008, 02:59 PM

In what this deck has been established?

Edit: sorry for the troll. I delete the second part of my question.

Trolling is frowned upon at the Source. Next time you will receive a warning.
-TOOL

Michael Keller

07-10-2008, 03:14 PM

In what this deck has been established, except in losing on MWS?

I'll kindly answer the first half of your question:

It has placed highly in quite a few large-scale events in Europe, Asia, and America in a span of two months. See Here (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Imperial+Painter&format=Legacy) (not counting my 2nd place in a 49 person event).

Thank you.

Please don't backseat mod. Use the 'Report a Post' button in the future.
-TOOL

Skeggi

07-11-2008, 04:13 AM

I'm still of the opinion that this deck should be mono-colored, but it's always worth it to test new stuff.

I'd like to come back on that. The deck should be mono-red. No splashes whatsoever. The changes Legend posted sound good to me, that should fix her up :)

moOnsteak

07-11-2008, 09:15 AM

Instead of speaking this deck should be in established or development area, why don't we talk about a real improvement for this build and for who doesn't care, just sit off. .

I'd rather talk about how good Sensei will be or what's the clock beside of Jaya or how Scarecrone will affect this build. .

Peter_Rotten

07-11-2008, 10:55 AM

Instead of speaking this deck should be in established or development area, why don't we talk about a real improvement for this build and for who doesn't care, just sit off.

I agree. Focus on improving the deck OR ignoring the deck.

DrewliusMaximus

07-11-2008, 02:03 PM

I haven't been able to test as much as I'd like against Ichorid or The Rock. I think I have pretty good idea about how to sideboard against Ichorid, but I'm less sure about the Rock. I'd like to know how others sideboard in those 2 matchups.

Michael Keller

07-11-2008, 02:36 PM

The sideboard against Ichorid is pretty decent. Most of the time, game one, you need to mulligan into combo or several Blast effects to counter Breakthrough, Deep Analysis flashback, and Careful Study. That buys you several turns and can ideally set you ahead until you win via combo.

Game two you serve up Trinisphere, Faerie, and Pyrokinesis. I've had relatively great success against Ichorid since playing the deck, and it pops up in my meta quite often.

Against The Rock, it's a dog-fight to start. Originally, before editing the deck, I was getting ravaged by creature kill and artifact hate. You need to fight fire with fire game one. It really comes down to who has better board position and if Magus is online shutting down all the supplemental color sources your opponent uses (for Deed, Grip, etc.). This is one of the reasons why I was considering adding Blood Moon to the side: To help shut down those sources and render a lot of relevant hate useless.

If your metagame calls for it, don't be hesitant to side out the Grindstones game two and three. The deck functions primarily off creatures with added effects and Grindstone is in this deck a surprise win factor. Adding creatures helps with the fight, which is why I have Dragon Whelp in my board. It's inherently better than Pit Dragon in this deck because you play like control - you don't want to dump your hand and then pay an inane amount of mana that you ideally don't have. Dragon Whelp already flies and pumps for red. What you must consider is that he is a smaller version of Shivan that is Imperial Recruiterable and that makes him a great fit.

SouthAlly

07-11-2008, 03:09 PM

Alegend, I have noticed that you are putting more creatures in and downplaying the combo aspect. On its face, this seems to make the deck look more like Dragon Stompy. That can't be a good thing. Is the combo not working?

Michael Keller

07-11-2008, 04:53 PM

Alegend, I have noticed that you are putting more creatures in and downplaying the combo aspect. On its face, this seems to make the deck look more like Dragon Stompy. That can't be a good thing. Is the combo not working?

This isn't a combo deck. The deck plays Grindstone as an alternate means of winning the game. The basis for which the deck plays is utilizing Painter's Servant to retroactively enhance every spell and ability in your deck into Counterspells and Vindicates to pave the way for an attack. The main list has hardly changed to resemble Dragon Stompy.

Imperial Painter does not include the following elements of Dragon Stompy:

This isn't a combo deck. The deck plays Grindstone as an alternate means of winning the game. The basis for which the deck plays is utilizing Painter's Servant to retroactively enhance every spell and ability in your deck into Counterspells and Vindicates to pave the way for an attack. The main list has hardly changed to resemble Dragon Stompy.

Imperial Painter does not include the following elements of Dragon Stompy:

Hollywood, do to the decks weakness against Mono-Colored aggro decks D&T Goblins, etc, I've recently been testing a 2nd Silent Arbiter and Umezawa's Jittes out of the board and I've been really impressed by them. Have you given Jitte any consideration against the not so great aggro matchups?

Michael Keller

07-11-2008, 08:33 PM

I was thinking about it. It might actually be a much wiser solution than more creatures in the board because you already play so many in the main. Jitte would solve a lot of issues the deck faces against more aggressive decks.

Maveric78f

07-12-2008, 04:48 AM

A Legend: did you make any report of your second place?

Belgareth

07-12-2008, 06:16 AM

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Imperial+Painter&format=Legacy

Maveric I suggest you start paying attention to the format, instead of trying to bait A_Legend.
This deck is a known entity in both USA and Europe and is likely to get better as people work on it.
It is already being worked on in UK, and I have no doubt the Germans have several lists undergoing testing.
It's not just a "flash in the pan" , the deck has an interesting and fairly reliable kill .
People ignored Aluren and AgroLoam for ages (especially in USA), but those decks proved just how well they can contend.
Instead of just writing off the deck, either suggest in a concise manner where you think the decks flaws are (and yes there are some), or leave the thread and accept that others want to work on it without your trolling.

On the deck, I've had some sucess with the Imperial lists but currently am branching away from red to splash a second colour to help in some of the weaker matches.

Happy Gilmore

07-12-2008, 06:02 PM

Blasts are much better in legacy than ppl would like to admit. Even as a counter to a brainstorm, they can be useful across the board.

Imperial Recruiter is an interesting idea and I wonder just how far it can be taken successfully. For one thing I would like to test an integrated list using both painter\IR\and an affinity style shell.

That way Painter is protected while resolving with blasts, and in response to removal you can either destroy lands and such or just simply counter the removal. Seems like a decent complement to a reletively slow combo deck.

Volt

07-12-2008, 06:12 PM

.

moOnsteak

07-12-2008, 07:55 PM

So you people were trying to put this Imperial Painter to a more aggro mode, good luck with that, that's a cool idea anyway unless I'll miss the way Jaya use her strength to control the board and SSG + Blast as red FoW. .

@Happy, too many Plating in my opinion, also 3 Chrome Mox for only 13 color imprinted will be a waste (yes you can sac them for Ravager, but the benefit is too low)

Hopefully there'll be another good report after this weekend in Syracuse at the $1,000 event.

Happy Gilmore

07-13-2008, 06:27 AM

So you people were trying to put this Imperial Painter to a more aggro mode, good luck with that, that's a cool idea anyway unless I'll miss the way Jaya use her strength to control the board and SSG + Blast as red FoW. .

@Happy, too many Plating in my opinion, also 3 Chrome Mox for only 13 color imprinted will be a waste (yes you can sac them for Ravager, but the benefit is too low)

Painter makes late game artifacts and even lands imprintable on Chrome Mox. You could imprint other Grindstones which would make up slightly for how useless they are in multiples. Platings are very good and with no draw you want to maximize how often you draw them. Being able to force them through with blasts is awesome. Plating also makes IR somewhat better, giving it the ability to trade with much much larger creatures.

I had only played Legacy casually (but usually against competitive decks) since there is no organized Legacy in Houston. This weekend though I had a business trip to the Dallas area so I was finally able to play in a tournament...and thanks to Imperial Painter the result was good. The metagame was probably half casual decks. The decks I knew of were:
1 UBGR Goyf Control (competitive)
1 Welder/Naught/Painter Control (competitive)
1 Mono-red Aggro (seemed competitive since he got 2nd place)
2 White Weenie (both seemed fairly casual)
1 Affinity (I think this was a standard build - competitive)
1 Slivers (I didn't see this build)
1 Reanimator (I didn't see this build)
I don't know what the other 2 decks were, but I know 1 of them was casual.

Next time I'll try to take notes as things happen, but here's what I wrote down immediately after the tournament:

Match 1 / UBGR Goyf
Game 1 - I went second and saw a delta, so my first turn I played a Tomb, a Mox (imprinting something), and then a second Mox, looking at my opponent for permission. I actually did not intend to imprint anything on this one, but to bait something out if possible, so I could safely play a Magus 1st turn. I can't remember if it was a Brainstorm/Daze or a Stifle, but it worked. I got my Magus, and proceeded to get a Painter and some Blasts, which kept me in total control until I got a Grindstone on turn 6 or 7 I think.
SB: -3 Magma Jet, -1 Jaya, +3 Blood Moon, +1 Shusher (I made the mistake of not bringing in Trinisphere)
Game 2 - I can't remember the start of this one, but I know he was able to counter many of my early spells. After I have a Painter and a Recruiter out, he plays Deed (I'm thinking this was sideboarded, which I find is correct). He wipes the board clean, and plays a Goyf next turn. I'm finished soon after.
SB: -4 Grindstone, +3 Trinisphere, +1 Stuffy Doll
Game 3 - This game started with me playing a Magus and a Blood Moon both of which are countered. Then I play a Trinisphere, which I think I had to protect with a Blast. I Recruit a Shusher, play it, and draw another Recruiter and have a Blood Moon in hand. I Recruit w/ Shusher support for Stuffy Doll. During most of this time, the opponent is using Sensei's Top to shape his hand, but plays a Goyf, which is 5/6. I activate Shusher's ability, which gets Stifled, so I play Blood Moon to bait out the counter, which he has to do because every land he has is nonbasic. I have chumpblocked with both Recruiters now, leaving only my Shusher. But now I activate his ability successfully and play the Doll. Without STP's or Jitte, he has no answer for Doll, and I proceed to play a Servant and draw some Lightning Bolts, and win. Doll can be really good!
2-1

Match 2 / White Weenie
Game 1 - I go first, and I do have some burn, but a Soltari Priest with a SoFI is too difficult for me to deal with. I lose.
SB: -4 Magus, -1 Jaya, -4 Blasts, + 3 Trinisphere, +3 Pyrokinesis, +2 Viashino Heretic, +1 Doll (I'm not sure if I sideboard correctly here)
Game 2 - I combo on turn 3.
Game 3 - My first turn Trinisphere slows the Weenies after a Savannah Lion is already played, and my second turn Servant serves as a decent blocker early. I draw some Blasts and a Jaya, and try to find the right balance of removing threats and land, but Serra Avengers, Soltari Priests and some other guys are coming fast. I have Pyrokinesis in hand but there is a Burrenton Forge Tender out. I think I make a mistake here by Recruiting a Heretic as preemptive protection from equipment, when I could've fetched Doll. I had already Blasted the Flyers, and the only guy that was evasive was 1 Priest. I Magma Jet one of the Weenies and scry away 2 Mountains. I'm at 5 life and I topdeck a Grindstone. I have to use Tomb to play and use it, so I win with 3 life.
4-2

Match 3 / Mono-Red Aggro
Game 1 - I go first and play Mountain, Grindstone. He plays Mountain. I play Tomb, Servant and then have to Blast his Lightning Bolt. I can't remember what he plays, but I combo on turn 3.
SB: -4 Magus, -2 Blasts, +3 Trinisphere, +3 Pyrokinesis
Game 2 - He plays Mountain. I play Tomb, Servant, but he Bolts it. He plays Mogg Fanatic I think. I play Mountain, and another Servant. He plays a burn spell that deals 2 damage to Servant (I can't remember which spell), but I have two Blasts in hand, and I counter. Next turn I play Grindstone off of the Tomb, taking 3 damage total, but I keep the Mountain untapped to Blast-counter. I draw a mountain, play it, and combo on turn 4 with an extra mountain and Blast available but it isn't necessary.
6-2

Match 4 / Welder/Naught/Servant Control
I concede so he can get into top 4. We did not play our deck against each other here because we figured we might meet in the semifinals or finals. Since we don't, I wish we would have played so I could test the matchup.

Top 4: Me, UBGR Goyf, Welder/Naught/Servant, Mono-Red Aggro

Semifinals / UBGR Goyf again
Game 1 - I go first I think, and I play Magus, protected by SSG and Blast. I have no cards in hand after turn 1. That doesn't matter though because I topdeck a Servant, some Blasts, and then a Gindstone, and combo on turn 6 or 7 I think.
SB: -4 Grindstone, -3 Jet, -1 Jaya, +3 Trinisphere, +3 Blood Moon, +1 Shusher, +1 Doll
Game 2 - Even though I have 2 Cities, SSG and a Magus, I mulligan because I have no back up red mana, and only a Recruiter to play if the Magus were to be countered. I get a hand with Mox, Tomb, Recruiter, SSG and 2 Blasts. He plays a land. I have play Recruiter and hope it doesn't get countered. He Brainstorms, but the Recruiter gets through, and I find a Servant. He plays a Top, then I play the Servant. He plays Deed, then I Blast the Deed, and keep 1 Blast for countering. I don't remember the next several turns exactly, but I force a Trinisphere out with Blast. I know that I Recruited a Magus but the Magus was countered, and he gets a Goyf out at 4/5. He also Grips the Trinisphere. After chumpblocking the Goyf with both Recruiters, I draw Stuffy Doll, but I have to wait another turn before I get the mana to play it. I do and it is not countered. After that, I get another Trinisphere, stabilize and slow roll.
8-2

Finals / Mono-Red Aggro
Game 1 - I combo on turn 4 or 5 after controlling the board with burn and Blasts (Magma Jets help here).
SB: -4 Magus, -2 Blasts, +3 Trinisphere, +2 Pyrokinesis, +1 Doll
Game 2 - I have my first turn Servant Bolted, and I'm not topdecking much. He plays Boggart Ram Gang on turn 3 which starts to scare me. I get a Bolt and kill the Ram Gang. I play a Servant, and then Magma Jet one of his other guys, scrying and finding a Grindstone on turn 6 I think and being at 8 life. He beats me for 4 more the following turn, and then I have to Tomb to activate the Grindstone, so I win with 2 life. What a game!
10-2

In summary:
1. Thanks to Josh at Comic Book Crazy for managing a great store and hosting Legacy. The people at the tournament were especially cool.
2. Even though it wasn't the most competitive tournament in the world, it still made me more confident that Imperial Painter is good.
3. Stuffy Doll was incredible for me in this tournament. I put him in the SB to help against Deed, but he is just generally bad for Goyfs. Obviously he is great against control that doesn't use STP (and probably against certain Aggro that doesn't use Jitte). But with extra Blood Moon effects in the SB and the ability to Blast lands, I could even see him being used against control with STP, since you can deny access to the white mana.
4. I liked having 4 Lightning Bolts and 3 Magma Jets MD. It made me more comfortable in Game 1's against aggro.
5. From this tournament, I found a little too frequently that I did not want to discard anything to Pyrokinesis. I know that this was no normal metagame, but is this a concern anyone else has had? I know that I really wanted a Silent Arbiter against White Weenie, and I was thinking about going down to 2 Pyrokinesis in the SB and adding the Arbiter back in.
6. I'd like to try a Hearth Kami or something in the place of one of the Viashino Heretics, so that you can search for something that will destroy an artifact the turn it comes into play. Any thoughts on this?

Well, I'm sure I forgot some stuff, but that's enough for one post. I give credit to many people on this thread for helping improve this deck, and helping me to understand it better. This deck is damn fun to play.

Michael Keller

07-13-2008, 09:34 PM

I've been testing out two Sword of Fire and Ice in the deck and I really like it. It basically acts like a Lightning Greaves when Painter's Servant is in play. Your creature can't be targeted against their blue spells, you pump up rather smaller creatures, you can kill opposing creatures, and you draw cards.

I think it's the solution the deck has been looking for.

Nihil Credo

07-13-2008, 09:57 PM

That doesn't work. Painter's Servant makes Sophie blue, so when state-based effects are checked after equipping it to a creature, it will become unattached because that creature has Protection from Blue.

You could splash for Blue Ward, however :cool:

Michael Keller

07-13-2008, 10:04 PM

Ahh right. I completely became oblivious to the fact it makes the Equipment blue, too.

At any rate, it's really strong here with creatures like Simian Spirit Guide and Imperial Recruiter who just become Clark Kents outside of their super-powers and I think it merits some discussion. Thoughts?

Zach Tartell

07-13-2008, 10:21 PM

Ahh right. I completely became oblivious to the fact it makes the Equipment blue, too.

At any rate, it's really strong here with creatures like Simian Spirit Guide and Imperial Recruiter who just become Clark Kents outside of their super-powers and I think it merits some discussion. Thoughts?

I'd rather run SOL&S, 'cause it'll get you EE or Deed'd away folks, gain you life (negligibly important) and make your Painter Swords-proof (And smother, Vindicate, Ghastly Demise and... Last Gasp-proof).

first I will say, I love this deck, and will be completing my set of recruiters to play it full time. I had to drive all over town yesterday to borrow recruiters from two different ppl to complement the single one I own. the meta was basically all combo and fish, which I crushed. the only deck I lost to was in top 4, a GWB agro deck w volrath stronghold, e-witness, tombstalker, d-conf, doran, plows, etc. I didnt have nearly enough yard hate to deal w his recursion, I will definitely be playing 4xmacabre in future between main/side. I lost two games in the swiss due to manaflood, so conclude I need either fetchlands+divining top or make a black splash for d-conf + thoughtseize. also, I feel the moon effects are over rated. every deck was prepared for them, and as soon as they saw mtn, they got basics w every fetch. in no game was magmoon devastating, and probably only was substantially responsible for winning one game. Im definitely cutting the bloodmoons from board, and probably cutting magmoon main down to 1-2, just as recruiter target. painter+jaya is much more effective mana denial anyway. jaya was great, I actually used her big ability twice. first to kill a tombstalker, and then to just deal 6 damage to opponent for lethal. I had earlier considered, and am now convinced is correct, instead playing price of progress in place of moons. let them have their non-basics, and get raped by PoP. lightning bolt was clutch, killing many, many dark confidants, and just efficiently doming opponents to accelerate clock. I was also considering
spitebellow (cant be recruited, but kills tombstalker/anything)
wildfire emisary (better than dragon whelp/etc? cant be plowed, and still firebreathes pretty well off tomb/traitors)
greater gargadon (hes just pretty good, and synergizes w city traitors)
lava dart/flame jab (lightning bolt pretty much was just kill target dark confidant, and price of progress is more effective dome burn, so this would be better than bolt)

Skeggi

07-14-2008, 04:05 AM

the only deck I lost to was in top 4, a GWB agro deck w volrath stronghold, e-witness, tombstalker, d-conf, doran, plows, etc.

FYI, sounds like The Rock with Doran.

Happy Gilmore

07-14-2008, 07:24 AM

No it doesn't. Chrome Mox says non land, non artifact.

Another possibility for a Recruit-able aggro one-of is Furnace Whelp. Although it is one less toughness then Dragon Whelp, it's fire breathing isn't limited, so it can end the game sooner.

Hmm, I was under the impression that painter made it possible. I'll have to confirm that.

Btw, has anyone considered Goblin Welder?

Skeggi

07-14-2008, 07:37 AM

Btw, has anyone considered Goblin Welder?

And how do you get the stuff you want to weld into your GY?

Happy Gilmore

07-14-2008, 08:04 AM

And how do you get the stuff you want to weld into your GY?

your pieces can still be killed and countered. This would be an excellent backup plan, not to mention could have very good synergy with SB cards such as crypt.

As a target for Imperial Recruiter, he should find his way into some builds as a one (or two) of over the much frailer Goblin Welder. I could see it as a four-of if you play around it correctly.

@Lonelybaritone: The thing I like best about SoFI is that it hits creatures after it's dealt damage to a player. If I Equip it to a Monkey or an Imperial Recruiter and it gets Swords to Plowshared, that's not really the end of the world as those creatures just bait the StP on themselves over Servant. Sword of Light and Shadow's life gain and ability to return a creature don't really stand out over the ludicrous damage and card draw SoFI provides (that the deck was sorely lacking).

I'm reworking my build after doing some team play-testing and will have it posted soon.

EDIT: I updated the original list. I decided to run one S.o.L.S as there are twenty creatures in the deck and I really feel these equipments give the deck the edge it needs against aggro-based decks that gave it so much trouble to begin with. Some people have talked about cutting a Grindstone, and I don't think that's a right call. In a deck that doesn't have a whole lot of card draw, you want to draw into it. You should play four or none. A great strategy is taking out the Grindstones games two and three and boarding into a more aggressive theme. It works for me.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

07-14-2008, 01:24 PM

Much frailer?

Is one point of toughness and Disenchantability really worth an extra six mana?

If you want a draw engine, I'd recommend Bottled Cloister. Also allows you to comfortably fit in Ensnaring Bridge, which would do little to hinder your own win conditions, but provide a comfortable life buffer.

yawg07

07-14-2008, 02:30 PM

If you want a draw engine, I'd recommend Bottled Cloister. Also allows you to comfortably fit in Ensnaring Bridge, which would do little to hinder your own win conditions, but provide a comfortable life buffer.

Until they Krosan Grip it. :( I used to run the card in Stax and that was always the problem with it.
They destroy it, your hand is RFG upside-down, period. :cry:

Happy Gilmore

07-14-2008, 02:56 PM

Goblin Welder would be a backup to the main strategy. And would even allow the deck to go off on less mana. Activate Grinding Stone, Weld in Painter in response. It would also create a head ache for any artifact based deck and the mirror, where you can weld your opponents artifacts in and out at will.

Btw, Try Thorn over Trinisphere. It is amazing.

DrewliusMaximus

07-14-2008, 05:50 PM

That doesn't work. Painter's Servant makes Sophie blue, so when state-based effects are checked after equipping it to a creature, it will become unattached because that creature has Protection from Blue.

So if SoFI is already equipped to a creature, and then Servant is played naming blue, does SoFI still unattach?

Michael Keller

07-14-2008, 06:26 PM

Much frailer?

Is one point of toughness and Disenchantability really worth an extra six mana?

If you want a draw engine, I'd recommend Bottled Cloister. Also allows you to comfortably fit in Ensnaring Bridge, which would do little to hinder your own win conditions, but provide a comfortable life buffer.

Krosan Grip and Engineered Exposives are kind of a relevant threat in the format right now. Being able to recur the most important part of the deck back directly into play with one card that you can fetch is generally a good thing. It fits the curve of the deck and at worst you draw a card. It will be a singleton in my build, no more.

If you play Ensnaring Bridge, you're going to potentially hinder your attack step, which is an important strategy of the deck. S.o.L.S also gains you life and returns creatures.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

07-14-2008, 07:02 PM

Somehow, I fail to see where "Krosan Grip is played, therefore Grippable recursion that costs a lot more mana= good" is an argument.

Somehow, I also think that your strategy of SoLS on a Recruiter is going to be a bigger worry to the opponent than the opponent's attack step will be to you, nine times out of ten. The point of Bottled Cloister is to break the symmetry of Bridge anyway.

Nihil Credo

07-14-2008, 08:36 PM

So if SoFI is already equipped to a creature, and then Servant is played naming blue, does SoFI still unattach?
Yes, as soon as SBEs are checked.

Michael Keller

07-14-2008, 11:49 PM

Somehow, I fail to see where "Krosan Grip is played, therefore Grippable recursion that costs a lot more mana= good" is an argument.

Somehow, I also think that your strategy of SoLS on a Recruiter is going to be a bigger worry to the opponent than the opponent's attack step will be to you, nine times out of ten. The point of Bottled Cloister is to break the symmetry of Bridge anyway.

Sword of Light and Shadow is a fine choice. I'm going to try out Scarecrone and see how it fares as a bullet. I've been trying to make the deck a little less dependent on Painter's Servant, and now with the inclusion of the Swords, you create imminent threats which your opponent must deal with at once.

And four mana shouldn't be considered "a lot" in a deck which plays fifteen to sixteen mana accelerators. Sword of Light and Shadow is there to compliment the other Swords, which are a bit more important here. Either way, equipping any of your creatures is a good thing.

Putting Bottled Cloister in the deck and Ensnaring Bridge is just atrocious. Why in God's name would you want to set aside your critical Blasts when you'd need them most? You're better off just playing Grafted Skullcap then. And in that scenario, your spells would become all sorceries, just as though you had Cloister. Either way, it's just not good.

Skeggi

07-15-2008, 04:39 AM

Putting Bottled Cloister in the deck and Ensnaring Bridge is just atrocious. Why in God's name would you want to set aside your critical Blasts when you'd need them most? You're better off just playing Grafted Skullcap then. And in that scenario, your spells would become all sorceries, just as though you had Cloister. Either way, it's just not good.

Well, you could use your Scarecrone as a draw-engine, but then I'd say run 2 or 3, perhaps 4. So you can sac themselves and don't have to sac the servant.

Willoe

07-15-2008, 06:38 AM

Well, you could use your Scarecrone as a draw-engine, but then I'd say run 2 or 3, perhaps 4. So you can sac themselves and don't have to sac the servant.

Rather Sword of Fire and Ice, have you checked how much mana that "engine" you mention costs? It isn't really an engine to sac your artifacts to draw cards. It just slaughters your bullets and thins your deck.

Or were you meaning to have one in play and one in graveyard? So then, you return it, sac the tapped one, draw a card, recur it, then sac the other.... Each draw will cost you 5 mana, that's way too much.

You can of course play it then sac it, wow you cantripped for 4 colorless mana! :rolleyes:

Honestly, I can't really see Scarecrone fit in the deck. The ability to recur the Servant at the cost of 7 mana, and you would still have to wait a turn due to the tap ability... There must be better alternatives, like Welder or even Trash for Treasure. It's pretty irrelevant that it can be fetched with Recruiter, just fetch another Servant instead. Am I wrong in these statements?

Hightower

07-15-2008, 06:46 AM

Goblin Welder can also be fetched by Recruiter =P

And I agree with TheInfamousBearAssassin that Scarecrone doesn't seem superior to Welder in any way, for the reasons stated earlier (1cc, no mana cost to activate, immune to artifact hate) only issue is you need an artifact in your Graveyard for it to be useful, but that's true for Scarecrone as well.. You haven't said why it's better then Welder, A Legend.. I would like to hear your arguments.

Skeggi

07-15-2008, 07:54 AM

Rather Sword of Fire and Ice, have you checked how much mana that "engine" you mention costs? It isn't really an engine to sac your artifacts to draw cards. It just slaughters your bullets and thins your deck.

SoFI doesn't stick after painter.

I only mentioned that, if you are thinking of incorporating Scarecrone, you could use it as an engine. Yes, high mana, but you're also running 4 Ancient Tomb and 4 City of Traitors, 3 Moxes and 4 SSG's. Granted, it's still much...but I don't like Welder since you need to sac one thing to recur the other; it seems like it only costs :r:, but it also costs :1: or :2: and an extra card on top of it, plus you don't really want to sac your servant.

Plus Scarecrone protects servant from, say, a StP.

moOnsteak

07-15-2008, 10:06 AM

One thing about Welder, powerful but not belong to this build because of some reasons :
- Lack of artifacts on the board (only Chrome Mox?? can be solved with additional Great Furnace)
- Lack of way to put an artifact into graveyard (no sac ability, just Jaya's discard cost or hope some of your artifact be countered / destroyed), Greater Gargadon will be a nice answer if you try to use Welder. .

SouthAlly

07-15-2008, 01:09 PM

SO if you are playing Goblin Welder, perhaps it would be a good plan to also play Gamble.

DrewliusMaximus

07-15-2008, 01:14 PM

I was thinking that if you were to use Welder MD, you could add 2 or 3 Gambles to search for Grindstone. Like Moonsteak said, there's still a problem with Artifacts on the board to sac, but once you start going this route, I feel like the whole deck changes a little bit, so other cards could be replaced with artifacts (possibly even Scarecrones, since they would allow you to sac a Servant and get it back). I still play with 4 Mox, and I think you'd want to play with 4 if you use Welder.

I like the idea of Scarecrone as an addition to the existing build though. Not because it is a robust draw engine, but because it can do many things. If I'm in game 1 against a deck with ground-beaters, I've got a Servant in the graveyard, and at least 4 mana, I will want to Recruit a Scarecrone on many occasions so I can turn my Servant into a reusable chumb-blocker. If I have 5 mana in that situation, my Servant is a chump-blocker that can draw a card right after blocking, and then return EOT. This brings up the point that the draw engine Scarecrone creates, while mana-intensive, can be activated at the end of the opponent's turn. You can keep that mana available to do other things if needed in the meantime. And like Skeggi mentioned, you can protect your Servants from STP, or just sac them to draw a card when they are Gripped, or Smothered or Deeded, or whatever. Additionally, Scarecrone can reanimate destroyed/countered sideboard cards like Silent Arbiter and Stuffy Doll. I don't know that Scarecrone would be worth an addition, but should most definitely be tested right? I don't think you would need more than 2 total between the MD and SB.

Quick question for Vroman: Stingscourger and Duplicant are cool ideas. I really like Stingscourger, but would be afraid that Duplicant's cost could be prohibitive. Did these guys work out for you?

Michael Keller

07-15-2008, 01:38 PM

When you're talking about adding these artifacts to the deck, you're bogging down an already oiled machine by putting in cards that are just saying "win more". The deck's route to victory is through the attack step. You're talking about playing a 1/1 Goblin that in this deck is very situational (just like Scarecrone, which probably won't make it into my final build anyways). More often than not, you know where Painter's Servant is going to be? Not the graveyard. He'll be in the RFG pile from Swords. There's no other relevant artifacts to recur in this deck. All sorts of unnecessary things have to happen in this deck to place him in, and I'm not prepared to cut an already tight list for Bottled Cloisters. Both Scarecrone and Welder really don't belong here.

Again, the main issue the deck faces is beating green in general. That's it. It's the only color I've had trouble with in the past and the addition of the equipment and Dragon have kind of given the deck a shove in the right direction, which is to say, a better match against aggro.

SouthAlly

07-15-2008, 01:58 PM

I still play with 4 Mox, and I think you'd want to play with 4 if you use Welder.
When you're talking about adding these artifacts to the deck, you're bogging down an already oiled machine by putting in cards that are just saying "win more". Great Furnace, boys.

Again, the main issue the deck faces is beating green in general. That's it. It's the only color I've had trouble with in the past...Death and Taxes is big here, and the Imperial Painter guys are always annoyed when they get paired with it.

vroman

07-15-2008, 03:11 PM

Quick question for Vroman: Stingscourger and Duplicant are cool ideas. I really like Stingscourger, but would be afraid that Duplicant's cost could be prohibitive. Did these guys work out for you?

yes. its easy to get 6 mana, esp w magmoon out so city traitors dont sac. dup laso gets to keep goyfs power toughness, w the new */* rules. stingscourger buys two turns vs goyf. first you bounce goyf, and they spend the next turn recasting him, so you pay the echo and then chump the following turn. stinger also not bad vs ichorid, bc you just let it die to remove bridges, and put a narcomeba into their hand.
I dont like the generc beater dragon plan. price of progress is way more efficient in most matches.
Im testing mog fanatic in place of lightning bolt, bc he is slightly relevent vs goyfs, wheras Ive never killed a goyf w bolt. and fanatic still kills dconf, and can frequently deal 3 damage to opponent for R, and also is recruitable.

DrewliusMaximus

07-15-2008, 03:27 PM

When you're talking about adding these artifacts to the deck, you're bogging down an already oiled machine

I agree here. In theory, I like the idea of a single Scarecrone, but like you said, there are limited targets for it and it might be too conditional.

Again, the main issue the deck faces is beating green in general.

Are you talking about Green Stompy and Elves, or anything that uses Green mana acceleration, or what?

I dont like the generic beater dragon plan.

I think I agree with this too. I feel like there are Recruitable-creature-based solutions that would be harder for the opponent to deal with. This past weekend, Stuffy Doll epitomized this for me. I can see Duplicant, Stingscourger and Wildfire Emissary being other good examples. I know it has been mentioned before, but Wildfire Emissary sure seems strong as a pumpable Recruiter target...it comes protected from STP and you can always name White with Servant.

Michael Keller

07-16-2008, 02:35 AM

I just came in first today at the Comix Zone in Syracuse's weekly Legacy event and wow, what a show:

Sword of Light and Shadow (x3) is utterly amazing. Playing against Di, I Recruitered for a Painter, he Thoughtseizes. I hit him with a Recruiter that's SoLS'ed, get back Painter, play Painter, and Blast Survival. I was doing these tricks all day. That card is fantastic here, and much more plausible than SoFI. The card's ability to replenish lost guys, gain life, and pump and protect dudes from spot removal is awesome.

And I was owning house all day with Dragon Whelp.

No, really.

Updated first post for new list.

Galroth

07-16-2008, 03:27 AM

Just wanted to say congrats on the finish. I've been following this deck and I think it absolutely kicks ass. Not only is it competitive, but the card interactions make the deck a blast to play. That said, I'll never sleeve this deck up because Imperial Recruiters are the highest in-demand legacy card which are non-existent on the market. Seriously go eBay Imperial Recruiter right now... 0 results. 0?! I can buy peoples souls on eBay but I can't get my hands on a set of Imperial Recruiters, much less one. Quite honestly 'til the card is reprinted or the price falls down (unlikely) this deck will never see common play. That's a damn shame.

Skeggi

07-16-2008, 04:24 AM

Good job! What's your current sideboard?

Happy Gilmore

07-16-2008, 09:31 AM

I just came in first today at the Comix Zone in Syracuse's weekly Legacy event and wow, what a show:

Sword of Light and Shadow (x3) is utterly amazing. Playing against Di, I Recruitered for a Painter, he Thoughtseizes. I hit him with a Recruiter that's SoLS'ed, get back Painter, play Painter, and Blast Survival. I was doing these tricks all day. That card is fantastic here, and much more plausible than SoFI. The card's ability to replenish lost guys, gain life, and pump and protect dudes from spot removal is awesome.

And I was owning house all day with Dragon Whelp.

No, really.

Updated first post for new list.

I have no idea why your not playing fetchlands and Fledgling Dragon instead. So so so so so much better, deck thinning, and shuffling with top.

Michael Keller

07-16-2008, 11:44 AM

If the deck played fetches, it would only play a set. That makes the list more susceptible to Stifle effects which with a City of Traitors out, is a devastating shot to your mana-base and could screw you over royally. It happens occasionally at big events, and I can't afford to take that chance.

I tried testing Top with fetches and I wasn't impressed. I rarely hit a fetch and while I was doing that I was getting smacked by two Tarmogoyfs. The list is very tight and the SoLS gives the deck a super-boost where it lacked before.

Dragon Whelp is better than Fledgling Dragon in this build, and here's why:

- SSG gets RFG.
- Chrome Mox RFG a card.
- SoLS brings guys back.
- City of Traitors stays in play from Magus.
- Dudes eat it to early StP.
- Whelp pumps itself and already has flying.
- Whelp can take down a Mongoose without having seven cards in the graveyard.
- Whelp can take down Goyf without having seven cards in the graveyard.

Seriously, I've gotten to Thresh in maybe a dozen games with this deck in a tournament.

Happy Gilmore

07-16-2008, 12:16 PM

If the deck played fetches, it would only play a set. That makes the list more susceptible to Stifle effects which with a City of Traitors out, is a devastating shot to your mana-base and could screw you over royally. It happens occasionally at big events, and I can't afford to take that chance.

I tried testing Top with fetches and I wasn't impressed. I rarely hit a fetch and while I was doing that I was getting smacked by two Tarmogoyfs. The list is very tight and the SoLS gives the deck a super-boost where it lacked before.

Dragon Whelp is better than Fledgling Dragon in this build, and here's why:

- SSG gets RFG.
- Chrome Mox RFG a card.
- SoLS brings guys back.
- City of Traitors stays in play from Magus.
- Dudes eat it to early StP.
- Whelp pumps itself and already has flying.
- Whelp can take down a Mongoose without having seven cards in the graveyard.
- Whelp can take down Goyf without having seven cards in the graveyard.

Seriously, I've gotten to Thresh in maybe a dozen games with this deck in a tournament.

The build I am working with atm doesnt use SSG or Moxen, I dont feel its neccessary and can create an all in situation I would rather avoid. That being said give this list a shot when you get a chance, I think you will like it:

The tangle wire soft lock can make it very difficult for some decks to stop the combo, and Welder gives the deck some much needed protection both because it can resurect combo pieces and lock down opponents. Not to mention all the tricky things you can do in your Sb with it.

Michael Keller

07-16-2008, 01:35 PM

There are a lot of hybrids for this deck that have been brought up in recent weeks. I think it's imperative that people understand why the basic list (with a slight evolution) has done extremely well in such a short order of time. Going in and making unnecessary changes only dilutes an already winning solution.

I'd maintain Simian Spirit Guide in any list. The ability to pseudo-Force of Will when your opponent thinks your tapped out is amazing and it's won so many games. He's far too important to cut out of the standard build. If you're taking the deck in a different direction, that's fine. But SSG is too good to pass up here.

Remember, turn one Magus wins games alone. Without SSG, you're putting yourself on one of three Chrome Mox to achieve that feat.

DrewliusMaximus

07-16-2008, 02:43 PM

While I agree with Legend that the basic Imperial Painter list is an already well-oiled machine, I still like to see all the experimenting that's happening around the Recruiter/Servant/Grindstone package. There's already been one top 8 on deckcheck with a White splash for Enlightened Tutor, and I'm sure there will be many more competitive variants in the future. I'm not sure that a build will arise that performs as consistently in as many different metas as the basic build, but since Imperial Painter was basically Recruiter's coming out party, we should see alot of new stuff come up.

Legend, I tested SoLS last night and like you, I saw it do some amazing things. However, what bothered me about putting it the MD was that it isn't valuable on its own. In a MD where 8 Blasts and 4 Grindstones are somewhat dependent on other cards, I feel like adding 3 more dependent cards weakened the MD overall. On the other hand, SoLS was so good in many situations that it has to be somewhere in the SB or MD. I know this totally depends on what kinds stuff is in your meta, but what are your thoughts on this?

Skeggi

07-16-2008, 02:47 PM

I'd maintain Simian Spirit Guide in any list. The ability to pseudo-Force of Will when your opponent thinks your tapped out is amazing and it's won so many games. He's far too important to cut out of the standard build. If you're taking the deck in a different direction, that's fine. But SSG is too good to pass up here.

Plus Welder seems to be the only reason to run Petals instead of SSG.

Michael Keller

07-16-2008, 04:36 PM

Simian Spirit Guide believe it or not also counters Daze. Oh snap.

chokin

07-16-2008, 07:30 PM

Where the heck do I find Imperial Recruiters? The deck looks really awesome, but if I wanted to make it, is it impossible to do just because of the fact Recruiters are nearly impossible to obtain?

Hide

07-16-2008, 07:51 PM

I found that the deck loses to counterspell heavy decks that play with daze, spell snare counterspell and fow... also since we run 16 1 cc spells... decks that boarded in chalice of the void for 1 is really hard to deal with... any suggestions for that? (An example of the deck would be Madness... so the also plays with circular logics... 16+ counterspells in total)

Michael Keller

07-16-2008, 09:06 PM

I found that the deck loses to counterspell heavy decks that play with daze, spell snare counterspell and fow... also since we run 16 1 cc spells... decks that boarded in chalice of the void for 1 is really hard to deal with... any suggestions for that? (An example of the deck would be Madness... so the also plays with circular logics... 16+ counterspells in total)

Pre-board the deck has about a 75-25 over MUC. Post board turns to about 70 because MUC brings in their own Blast effects. These numbers have come from team-testing on a routine basis for several months now.

You run 8 main-deck Blast effects, Vexing Shusher, and Jaya Ballard to crush mono blue-based decks alone. And Grindstone (even by itself) is a very good alternative to winning the game as I've seriously decked my opponent without Painter's Servant in tournament play several times. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

TrialByFire

07-17-2008, 12:09 AM

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

Probably because a good percentage of the people in here don't actually test; they just fabricate their own opinions based on what they think should happen, play a few games against a suboptimal opponent or two (read: MWS randoms) and then call that testing data.

Skeggi

07-17-2008, 04:37 AM

Probably because a good percentage of the people in here don't actually test; they just fabricate their own opinions based on what they think should happen, play a few games against a suboptimal opponent or two (read: MWS randoms) and then call that testing data.

That's a fact. But still this deck packs so much blue hate it's hard for me to see someone would overlook that.

Spark Spray:
I play it over Lightning Bolt. You possibly wouldn't believe how good that card realy is. But just remember all the matchups and situation in your testings in which you simply needn't your Bolt. And there are so many targets for Spark Spray left. I think I don't have to list them all.

Jaya Ballard:
Situation: You keep a Servant and a Recruiter in your hand and nothing important else. You need Jaya in your deck to do anything meaningful with that hand.
Next Situation: You have 7 Mana a Recruiter and you want to clean the board. (It happens often)
It's quite useful to play it at least one times.

Active Volcano:
Sure, the card is worse than the Pyroblasts. It can't protect the Painters' Stone Combo like the Blasts, because it can't counter a FoW or a Swords to Plowshares targeting your Painter.
But Active Volcano can bounce your oponents Tundra at end of turn for example, so you can play the Combo without lose it on a Swords to Plowshares.
When you have Blood Moon and Painter, you now need to destroy your ememys coloured Mana Sources like Basics, Birds, Moxes and I think the 8 Vindicates simply aren't enough to handle them all.
When your oponent plays an early Daze you can use Active Volcano to bounce his Land a second time and throw him back.

Pyromancer:
I play it because you have nothing else to handle with Empty the Warrens, it also handles with the whole Goblindeck and off course it is a Recruiter-Target.
So you need to play only one SB and can play 5! Postboard.

Tinkerer:
I don't know why you are playing Viashino Heretic over Goblin Tinkerer. Tinkerer destroys Moxes and Dreadnoughts just as well.

Lightning Bolt:
I need the card when all the Moons have to leave the Deck.

Please tell me what do you think about my list. (Especialy about Spark Spray.)

Skeggi

07-18-2008, 03:02 PM

Spark Spray:
I play it over Lightning Bolt. You possibly wouldn't believe how good that card realy is.

You're right, I don't. Or actually I think I do, but I don't believe you can actually prefer that over Lightning Bolt.

DrewliusMaximus

07-18-2008, 04:10 PM

In very limited testing, I found Powder Keg to be an excellent sideboard card. It seems like a great answer to so many problems. I know it was used in one of the builds that top-8'ed on deckcheck, but I haven't seen it mentioned too frequently. What do people think of the Keg?

I feel like I've got a decent variety of answers in this SB, but I'm not exactly sure what to do with that last spot. Since I don't have a team to do ultra-comprehensive testing with, any feedback I can get is appreciated.

Michael Keller

07-18-2008, 04:21 PM

In very limited testing, I found Powder Keg to be an excellent sideboard card. It seems like a great answer to so many problems. I know it was used in one of the builds that top-8'ed on deckcheck, but I haven't seen it mentioned too frequently. What do people think of the Keg?

I feel like I've got a decent variety of answers in this SB, but I'm not exactly sure what to do with that last spot. Since I don't have a team to do ultra-comprehensive testing with, any feedback I can get is appreciated.

The sideboard again is really meta-dependent. No one really comes prepared to a tournament for this deck because of the scarcity of Imperial Recruiters - you really can't expect to play against it unless you're a regular and you do well with it. For the most part, every Imperial Painter sideboard should consider including the following cards:

Trinisphere
Vexing Shusher
Faerie Macabre
Pyrokinesis

These cards are fantastic against some of the best decks in the format and they provide great synergy post-board (provided your board strategy is correct). Games two and three, I almost always side out Grindstone, as most hate comes in the form of artifact destruction or Pithing Needles. I've been kind of working on more of a man-plan sideboard to see how that would strengthen the match games two and three. So far, the sideboard I run has been working just fine.

DrewliusMaximus

07-18-2008, 04:38 PM

For the most part, every Imperial Painter sideboard should consider including the following cards:

Trinisphere
Vexing Shusher
Faerie Macabre
Pyrokinesis

I'm obviously with you on 3 of 4. Here's what I was thinking about Pyrokinesis vs. Powder Keg though:
1. Powder Keg handles both cheap creatures and cheap artifacts - this allowed me to free up 1 SB slot by having only 1 Viashino Heretic.
2. Keg is a better answer than Pyrokinesis to tokens
3. Keg gets around protection-red
4. Keg actually costs something, but you don't have to discard anything to it
5. But Keg is not an instant, may take a few turns to build up, and can affect your own stuff

Again, I know everything, especially sideboards, depend on specific metagames. But let's say I go with the Kegs and the list I mentioned...what matchups have I weakened by not using Pyrokinesis?

Edit: This question was answered for me today. Since Pithing Needle is sideboarded in against us all the time, things that get shut down by it are not great cards for us to sideboard in.

Michael Keller

07-21-2008, 03:37 PM

After going a disappointing 3-4 this past weekend in the big $1,000 tournament in Syracuse, I did some thinking and analyzing on the deck and the reasons why it didn't do so well.

One of the main reasons was an underestimation of how the deck should mulligan against certain kinds of decks. For example, there is an obscene amount of hatred for Ichorid in the sideboard, yet I lost to it in a tight game 3 battle. I opened up with the combo (Painter and Grindstone), but no other hate. It's knowing what to mulligan into and who plays first the third game that can adversely affect the result of the match - even within the first two turns.

My other losses were against random Counterbalance-control with Gaea's Blessing main-deck and the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo itself sideboard. That particular match went to a third game, but I opened with a land and Chrome Mox and never saw another land again.

There were however some very bright spots in the how the deck performed. Sword of Light and Shadow always seemed relevant and more often than not turned out to be the difference maker against more aggressive decks. Magus ended up being somewhat important as it shut down non-basics on the opening play. Ultimately, it was my performance that really cost me games that I could have (and in most cases, should have) won.

I also really feel there are too many slots in the sideboard devoted to punishing specific decks that can fold a touch easier against one or two hate cards rather than say, six or seven. As it stands, here is my sideboard:

I'm really considering taking the sideboard into a different direction in association with the main-deck. In larger tournaments, the perception of Trinisphere in the main has become more of an accepted theory because of how well it works against essentially all combo builds and even some control.

Lightning Bolt works really well in the local meta, but unfortunately, it was a dead horse this past weekend. I really think Sword of Light and Shadow fixes your aggro match pretty well. Lightning Bolt doesn't hit Mongoose, but the Sword pumps your men up enough to knock him off. Bolt also doesn't kill Tarmogoyf too often, and while it is really a good card, I think I'm learning more and more that I really want to draw a better business spell.

There are also a lot of sideboard slots dedicated to Imperial Recruiter. If in fact you have to spend a tutor to find one of the cards in the sideboard dedicated to hating out the deck you brought it in against, that's one less tutor for nabbing you a Painter's Servant, in which case, you're probably in trouble. With this in mind, I'm considering adding a Faerie Macabre to the main build to balance out the combo match and cutting one from the board as well. You really don't need any more than two.

Thoughts?

DrewliusMaximus

07-21-2008, 04:00 PM

If in fact you have to spend a tutor to find one of the cards in the sideboard dedicated to hating out the deck you brought it in against, that's one less tutor for nabbing you a Painter's Servant, in which case, you're probably in trouble.

I've thought about this same thing. That's one reason I tried 4 MD Burning Wish this past weekend so I could use it for versatility and save Recruiter for consistency.

I only got to test briefly, and I don't have a complete sideboard for it, but it seemed to work pretty well. I tried something like:

I figure you could sideboard Pyroclasm (ideally Rolling Earthquake) , Shattering Spree, Demonfire, and a bunch of other stuff. Has anyone else tried this?

Skeggi

07-22-2008, 05:39 AM

(...)
My other losses were against random Counterbalance-control with Gaea's Blessing main-deck and the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo itself sideboard. That particular match went to a third game, but I opened with a land and Chrome Mox and never saw another land again.
(...)
Thoughts?

We talked about Scarecrone before. Against decks with Counterbalance it could be useful. On the other hand, so could Aether Vial.

thefreakaccident

07-22-2008, 06:26 AM

I do not understand this deck's success at all... please do not take this as flaming or whatever, just hear me out...

Against non-blue decks, you have 10 dead cards... and 3 that are not-so good (jaya)... which means, against black, in my eyes, the deck would falter... the fact that a painter's servant makes them good does not change the fact that they are bad without him.... I thought that cards that are dependent on other cards to be good were always bad... right?

The same arguement can be used for dreadnought... but that is 4 cards, not 10+...

The deck also seems to be draw dependent (very much so in fact)... Why not just run dragon stompy, which although plays a totally different style, it just seems to want to do similar things that this deck wants to do (win quick, or shut the opponent down), which it does through moons (same), and scary artifacts, whereas this deck tries to use moon (same), but then try to use painter in conjunction with bad spells to control the gamestate...

I just do not understand how this is performing well at all... I could see it doing well if literally every deck in my meta was blue, but that is never the case in any given meta.

Basically, what this long post sums up to is:

1. How in the hell would this beat anything with black, like eva green, the rock, or funkbrew?

2. Why play this over Dragon stompy?

moOnsteak

07-22-2008, 07:03 AM

^

1. I agree that black is the worst opponent for this deck. .Discard, mass destroyer (deed everyone), anti-creature like edict are the real nightmare. .
I really have no answer 'bout that. .

2. This build can do something that DS can't do : destroy permanents that annoy you (counter won't be counted, DS can do that with CoTV), win in a split second, win when you was underwhelming. .

Dreadnought isn't one that's right to be compared since Stiffle can be the best landy spell or anti-storm beside of part to win. .
It's like Hulk Flash, that contain 24 dead cards (4 flash, 4 Protean Hulk, 4 Summoning Pact, 4 Disciple of fault, and 8 0/0 artifact creatures as their win condition those days), which is also dead card when Flash aren't there, but deadly when they come along. .

thefreakaccident

07-22-2008, 07:46 AM

Comparing this and hulk flash is bold, to say the least...

When I was referring to dreadnought, I was referring to the card itself (reliance theme therein)...

Also, good hulk decks did not run the turn 0 win, although it was cool in theory :)...

I miss those days...

Me: extract

Opponent: what the hell is that? *opponent reads card* :confused:

Me: gg? :tongue:

Of coarse the card was terrible outside of that MU, but desperate times called for desperate measures

Maveric78f

07-22-2008, 08:10 AM

When your oponent plays an early Daze you can use Active Volcano to bounce his Land a second time and throw him back.
Actually, you can't. If I understood well what you planned to do.

I do not understand this deck's success at all
What success?

The deck folds to countertop combo, to chalice@1, to combo, to control with not a too junk mana base, to goblins, to burn, to ...
Even with painter online, you can't do better than 1 for 1 and you can't tutor for your instant kill (grindstone).

The deck 2nd in a tourney of around 50 players which is a fair result but I asked for a report of this tourney and I never got it.

Once more, you can take this post as flaming, but you are shouting that your deck is the best, that it should be DTB very soon, that it's more or less like Flash Hulk, etc... There is no way to answer you back with no flaming.

Michael Keller

07-22-2008, 02:23 PM

The deck folds to countertop combo, to chalice@1, to combo, to control with not a too junk mana base, to goblins, to burn, to ...
Even with painter online, you can't do better than 1 for 1 and you can't tutor for your instant kill (grindstone)..

First off, you honestly have no idea what you're talking about - and I'm just being honest here.

1.) You play 18 3cc spells, 1 un-counterable which makes everything else uncounterable, 2 cards which inherently destroy blue permanents on their own without Painter, 8 Blast effects to counter with, and 1 4cc spell - all of which you can Demonic Tutor for. I have never lost to Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top online - ever.

2.) I did write up a tournament report and it's in the Tournament Reports and Announcements section under the June Hadley 6/28 event. For the third time.

3.) This deck folds to combo? Are you insane? The deck packs Trinisphere, and that alone makes almost every relevant combo deck in the format fold to you. I suppose Blasting Diminishing Returns and Faerie Macabring against Ichorid and Ill Gotten Gains is good as well...? And you know, you can just win turn two as well, I guess...

4.) Dragon Stompy deserves no comparison to Imperial Painter, and I'll tell you why. In Dragon Stompy, the idea of the deck is to deplete your hand with essentially one or two large, relevant threats. You pitch your entire hand to Chrome Moxes and Seething Songs. In Imperial Painter, you either work out creatures one at a time or play Painter and go to town on whatever they have out. You have the choice in Imperial Painter, see. You have actually board control elements. There are less relevant top-decks in Dragon Stompy than there are Imperial Painter. Drawing an Arc Slogger is probably not as good as drawing an Imperial Recruiter into Painter and Blasting their creature.

5.) Folding to Burn? Do you think equipping a Sword of Light and Shadow to any of your creatures turning them into 4/4's that gain you three life a turn negates that problem? Yeah, I think so. Or you know, you could just use the attack step which works generally better than their one spell a turn...

6.) Even with Painter online, your opponent won't have any threats online and probably not a whole lot of land either.

7.) Losing to Chalice at one? Again - you play 20+ cards that have a higher cost than one, and you can Demonic Tutor for one card that negates that "problem" if it arises. You also have Heretic in the board. Chalice at one is the least of your problems, which shows you have no understanding how the deck primarily functions, which is to say - you assume the only way the deck wins is through Grindstone.

No.

thefreakaccident

07-22-2008, 09:31 PM

My primary and only concern with the deck was the excess of dead cards that could (and probably do) accumulate in your hands without painter... especially against decks without blue in them (survival would be an auto-loss?, goblins?, goyf sligh?, dragon sompy?, agro loam?, pikula?, funkbrew?)... they all seem to be bad/terrible MUs...

Basically anything with disruption that is non-blue seems terrible, at least in my eyes.

EDIT: and the oh, well with no countermagic, we can just godfish arguement is kinda bullshit, as you would have to aggressively mulligan for grindstone, as you have no means to tutor for it...

Perhaps a light blue splash for trinket mage could increase the deck's consistency, being able to access both parts of the combo with imperial... (go grab either mage or painter)...

DrewliusMaximus

07-22-2008, 11:03 PM

I know there's good reason to question many aspects of this deck (specifically the potential buildup of dead cards without Servant), but consider:

1. There are 8 ways MD to get Magus. While it's not going to be turn 1 every time, it's still pretty good. If you SB Moons, then you have more consistent access to Blood Moon effects than Dragon Stompy.
2. Jaya turns useless cards into useful cards, turning a buildup of Blasts into utility and guaranteeing that your topdeck will do something.
3. Trinisphere can be more of a lock in this Deck than in Dragon Stompy because you can destroy lands. Granted, Trinisphere is mostly sideboarded, but I know Legend did well in one tournament with it in the MD (maybe it should be considered again in the MD?).
4. When Servant is online, you can sometimes trade more than 1 for 1 when you have Jaya out also. And even if you are trading 1 for 1, you are trading one Blast for...anything. That is alot of flexibility.
5. Considering that this deck is new and that there can't be that many players playing this because of Recruiter availability, 5 top-8's so far on deckcheck in several countries is pretty good.

If Imperial Painter as a concept is crap, I'm surprised that has worked so well so far. Nonetheless, it's a new deck so there's got to be a bunch of criticism. Hopefully it can be constructive.

Maveric78f

07-23-2008, 04:16 AM

Result speaking, there has been 3 good results (2/49, 5/51 and 2/35). The rest means nothing. Even 5/51 can be achieved with a report of 4/0/2 (even if it's more probably 4/1/1 or 5/0/1), so that's not really impressive. The 5 "imperial painter results" you report are obtained in 5 different countries, meaning that the deck is probably more spread than what you think and getting only 3 good results in 2 months is not really an achievement to my sense.

I've read your report. The following sentence stroke me:

Overall, I got a set of Volcanics which I sold to Bob. All in all, a classic event. Three top 8's out of four events, Finals in two of them. *Shrug*. Maybe next time I can finish the job. Until then...
This is kind of a result. Was it all with imperial painter? Why isn't it on deckcheck?

Apart from that, you win twice against Ichorid, and I'm very doubtful, to say the less that this is a positive MU preboard and postboard.

Madpeep

07-23-2008, 10:50 AM

I picked up this deck for the $1k Syracuse tournament and had alot of fun playing it. I got paired with Ichorid round three and while I did get stomped game one after keeping a mediocre hand, games two and three were a breeze after bringing in 4 faerie macabres. Reb/Pyro counters many of their spells, under Trinisphere (which I had MD) they can't cast anything, Magus hits all of their lands, and Faerie gets their dredgers/bridges out of the GY.

I ended up going 4-3 at the event. All three of my losses were to Threshold decks, while I beat R/U Goblins, Ichorid, Dragon Stompy, and Affinity.

Skeggi

07-23-2008, 11:13 AM

I ended up going 4-3 at the event. All three of my losses were to Threshold decks, while I beat R/U Goblins, Ichorid, Dragon Stompy, and Affinity.

Should we conclude you lost to countertop?

Madpeep

07-23-2008, 11:27 AM

Not at all. I lost to Nimble Mongoose, Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning Bolt.

DrewliusMaximus

07-23-2008, 12:50 PM

Madpeep, were you happy with Trinisphere in the main? And did you use 3 or 4?

Madpeep

07-23-2008, 01:23 PM

I loved Trinisphere in the main and used all four. With 4 Magus of the Moon and 4 Trinisphere, you have a good chance of dropping one form of disruption on turn one, or two at the latest. Also, there are very few matches where trinisphere isn't absolutely amazing. I only sided them out against Dragon Stompy, when I brought in 4 Pyrokinesis. The worst card in the deck is Lightning Bolt. It was useless most of the day.

Skeggi

07-23-2008, 01:34 PM

Yeah, people seem to prefer magma jet over lightning bolt.

Ghostfire45

07-23-2008, 01:42 PM

Magma Jet is good and all but its certainly not better than lightning bolt:tongue:

Michael Keller

07-23-2008, 01:46 PM

Just to let everyone know, I ended up winning again at the local event here in Syracuse (5-1) yesterday. The wins? They came against the following:

Threshold
Dragon Stompy
TES (2x)
Train Wreck

That's quite a variety. The only loss was to Train Wreck and that went to a third close game. The deck has been performing very well and I haven't made any changes to the main or sideboard. I ended up getting seven packs for first and cracked a foil Bitterblossom.

Totally cool.

And by the way, here's the Hadley event on deck-check: Here. (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18049)

@Maveric: And Ichorid is an extremely favorable matchup for this deck. The amount of hate that comes in post-board is disgusting. I've played close to a dozen tournament matches against Ichorid and lost all but two. Pre-board you have about a 50/50. And if Ichorid is a problem in your meta, main-deck Trinisphere. This way, they can't play any of their spells. And play Magus, you know who shuts off their Coliseums. Or you could just Blast the most relevant spells in their deck like Breakthrough, Careful Study, and Deep Analysis. I suppose that's good too...

DrewliusMaximus

07-23-2008, 03:15 PM

Just to let everyone know, I ended up winning again at the local event here in Syracuse (5-1) yesterday.

Legend, did you use the list with SoLS?

I loved Trinisphere in the main and used all four.

I was playing around with MD Trinisphere (which I like now), but I was wondering if 3 might be a good number for the MD because:
1. Antisymmetry with Mox
2. Unlike Dragon Stompy, Imperial Painter has many cheaper spells, so Trinisphere potentially slows down our own gameplan.
3. This deck can frequently come fast out of the gate with cheaper spells, either countering blue spells with Blasts or playing a Servant and a Blast first turn (or burning a creature, or attempting a 2nd turn combo), making a turn 3 or 4 Trinisphere/Magus the preferable play (especially if you can Blast a land before then).

Am I misguided here?

Michael Keller

07-23-2008, 03:20 PM

Legend, did you use the list with SoLS?

I was playing around with MD Trinisphere (which I like now), but I was wondering if 3 might be a good number for the MD because:
1. Antisymmetry with Mox
2. Unlike Dragon Stompy, Imperial Painter has many cheaper spells, so Trinisphere potentially slows down our own gameplan.
3. This deck can frequently come fast out of the gate with cheaper spells, either countering blue spells with Blasts or playing a Servant and a Blast first turn (or burning a creature, or attempting a 2nd turn combo), making a turn 3 or 4 Trinisphere the preferable play (especially if you can Blast a land before then).

Am I misguided here?

Yes, Sword of Light and Shadow was used in the latest list as there have been no changes.

I really believe that Trinisphere in the main is a meta-game call. If your area is saturated with combo and some control, then absolutely. However, I am no longer an advocate of playing it in the main. When you win the die-roll and you go on the play, Trinisphere turn one is almost as good as Magus turn one. But you can't guarantee you'll be on the play turn one. This is why it's so much better in the board.

Trinisphere can win you games alone - just like Magus. But understand by playing Trinisphere turn one you are potentially setting yourself back with your Blast effects and the sort until you get Painter online. This is why I moved it to the board: To completely shut down Ichorid and storm-combo to the point where you put them on full-tilt and they have to win as soon as possible. Otherwise, you run all over them with creatures and a potentially game-ending Grindstone activation.

DrewliusMaximus

07-23-2008, 04:46 PM

But you can't guarantee you'll be on the play turn one. This is why it's so much better in the board.

It seems to me that Trinisphere works pretty well against all sorts of decks even as a later turn play. When you ran it MD I remember you said that it functioned kind of like a Rule of Law...that's what I'm finding, and it seems to help dictate tempo later in the game when you can answer spells one-for-one with Blasts or you are in topdecking mode.

But understand by playing Trinisphere turn one you are potentially setting yourself back with your Blast effects and the sort until you get Painter online.

My biggest worry about MD Trini is slowing the ability to Blast (and burn and play/activate Grindstone on the same turn), and in the end, I'm sure you're right that is just a metagame call. But this deck seems to make especially good use of Trinisphere as a later-turn tempo-slowdown. That, combined with the concern about slowing your own stuff too early is why I was thinking that 3 might be a good number in the main.

Madpeep

07-23-2008, 04:47 PM

@Maveric: And Ichorid is an extremely favorable matchup for this deck. The amount of hate that comes in post-board is disgusting. I've played close to a dozen tournament matches against Ichorid and lost all but two.

A Legend, I think you meant to say that you've "won" all but two, not lost.

Michael Keller

07-23-2008, 07:06 PM

A Legend, I think you meant to say that you've "won" all but two, not lost.

Yeah, that's it. Thanks. :cool:

frenchy-man

07-24-2008, 01:13 PM

Hi

I play this deck with mws for nearly 2 weeks.
My list is a monoR one's, playing many useless cards when painter isn't on the board. I like this idea 'cause it totaly differs from the laws of Magic.

Then I play 19 useless cards. It allows me to win easily when painter comes on the board.

In France, people are very suspicious with this deck because of the too much differences between this deck and other decks like threshold (and perhaps because of imperial recruiters' price^^).

However I'd like to know if this deck is actually played in the US, and if it wins.

Thanks for having read me.

frenchy-man.

Michael Keller

07-24-2008, 02:57 PM

Hi

I play this deck with mws for nearly 2 weeks.
My list is a monoR one's, playing many useless cards when painter isn't on the board. I like this idea 'cause it totaly differs from the laws of Magic.

Then I play 19 useless cards. It allows me to win easily when painter comes on the board.

In France, people are very suspicious with this deck because of the too much differences between this deck and other decks like threshold (and perhaps because of imperial recruiters' price^^).

However I'd like to know if this deck is actually played in the US, and if it wins.

Thanks for having read me.

frenchy-man.

I would look back on the first post in this thread. There you'll find some explanations and perhaps gain a better understanding about how the deck is played and why you should try it.

It is played here in America, absolutely. The only thing is that Imperial Recruiters are very expensive and scarce to boot and some people cannot afford or find them, which inherently makes the deck a little more difficult to build. Is it worth finding the cards? That all depends on how much the deck suits your play-style. It currently is an Established Deck because of its recent great performance in and outside the United States in large tournaments.

Also, I wouldn't consider every card in your deck "useless" without Painter. Even without Painter, you can still pitch your dead cards to Jaya Ballard or Chrome Mox if the situation calls for it.

Michael Keller

07-28-2008, 01:02 AM

Just to let everyone know how the deck has been performing recently:

The last few tournaments I've played in (four, total) have all been continued Top 4 placings with the deck. I'm really confident in the current build and see no changes that are necessary.

There was some chit-chat about using Furnace Whelp (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/FD/Furnace_Whelp.html) over Dragon Whelp. I wouldn't make that change because of the toughness Dragon Whelp brings to the table. He makes the deck a little more resistant to Pyroclasm, which is huge. Besides, I hardly ever pump the Dragon more than three times anyways.

Also just to let everyone know how well the Swords of Light and Shadow have been working:

Phenomenal.

Since placing the set of three in my build, my aggro match has been all but completely fixed. There never really was too much an issue against aggro-control decks; it was really all about only aggro. Mongoose was a problem, but the Sword fixed it. I even played against several Rock variants this past week and (surprisingly) won each round. Originally, Rock was a severely bad match for the deck. It gives you some options once a man is equipped, and that's awfully important for a deck once lacking in recursion. I even beat Burn once because of it, another once dangerous adversary. This card genuinely has solved a lot of problems the deck once faced.

So in short: My original list hasn't been tampered with and it's working fantastically.

DrewliusMaximus

07-28-2008, 02:38 PM

all been continued Top 4 placings

Awesome man! I haven't played much with SoLS, but it sure looks like I will be using it next time I get a chance.

sankido

07-30-2008, 03:54 AM

Last weekend I went sixth (5-2) on a 65 people tournament. I lost against Rgb Sligh and UWb Landstill. My wins were against
Elves!
Full English Breakfast
UGw Threshold
UWb Landstill
Goblins

The sideboard ist quite...experimental to say at least but I really like the blue splash. Trinket Mage helped me quite some times to complete the Combo, especially when I bought myself some time with Magus of the Moon. I play 4 Pyroclasm main because I found that I lost quite often to fast aggressive decks. This buys you quite some time against WW, Goblins or some black aggro builds.

Wargoos

07-30-2008, 08:31 AM

Trying out the list with SolaS, i can say that aggro shouldnt be that hard.
At least you can still combo out. So the Pyroclasms are just slot waste.
I guess i saw you playing on that tourney.
You were the one who bought some time with a magus on board and still casting a trinket mage tapping volcanic for blue...
I think your list is relying to much to the combo which is a step back from the current lists.

sankido

07-30-2008, 08:47 AM

I guess i saw you playing on that tourney.

Yeah and I know you are active in the planet board as well and probably we know each other from the Spieleland, but anyway...

You were the one who bought some time with a magus on board and still casting a trinket mage tapping volcanic for blue...

Under Magus I probably casted it with the Chrome Mox.

Trying out the list with SolaS, i can say that aggro shouldnt be that hard.
At least you can still combo out. So the Pyroclasms are just slot waste.

I ordered a couple of SoLaS but guess what...they arrived excactly one day too late. :mad:

I think your list is relying to much to the combo which is a step back from the current lists.

I tried the aggressive version before but I wasn't very succesful with it. I wouldn't consider it a step backwards but a different approach. But I will go and test the SoLaS. Oh and I still won games with the good old Recruiter beatdown. :cool:

Wargoos

07-30-2008, 09:00 AM

Yeah and I know you are active in the planet board as well and probably we know each other from the Spieleland, but anyway...
Just by seeing, i will miss the olde spieleland =(, i was the one to play TempoTreshold

Under Magus I probably casted it with the Chrome Mox.
Could be.
Adler told me the story as i told it to you.

But I will go and test the SoLaS. Oh and I still won games with the good old Recruiter beatdown.
Which is even better with the Swords.

BTW: what did you pay for your recruiter playset?

sankido

07-30-2008, 09:16 AM

Could be.
Adler told me the story as i told it to you.

People, don't recognize that the red card you imprinted on the mox is also blue under painter's influence. So he probably saw me tapping the Chrome Mox (imprinted with a red card) and Volcanic Island and random red mana source and thought I got the blue mana from the Island. Shame on him that he didn't say something then. :tongue:

BTW: what did you pay for your recruiter playset?

I will send you a mail over planet.

Michael Keller

07-30-2008, 02:20 PM

Job well done on the placing. Very nice.

However, I can almost assure you that your loss to Sligh would have been all but prevented had Sword of Light and Shadow been used. That match gets a lot easier pre-board with those slots.

Also, playing blue is a bad idea in Imperial Painter. When you have a Painter in hand with a Mountain, Tomb, and Blast, you always drop the Mountain first. By dropping the Volcanic you're opening yourself to Wasteland hate even more and that can be extraordinarily bad, as most of the time you need to run off that singleton red source. It's not worth changing the mana-base around for. Sword of Light and Shadow recurs all of your creatures, pumps them, and protects them from spot removal, all in one.

DrewliusMaximus

07-30-2008, 06:14 PM

I was able to play with SoLS last night and I must say, it is awesome. I played three games against my friend's Rock deck and that card certainly helps that matchup quite a bit. I was more impressed though by how useful it is all around. I played several games against Goblins, and between burning his guys away and the pump-effect of the Sword, I was able to protect my guys from Incinerator almost every time, not to mention having the prospect of recurring them.

I had decided to try sideboarding one Hearth Kami instead of one of the Heretics before I tried the SoLS, so that I could find him if I needed to destroy a cheap artifact quickly, and SoLS makes him reusable. I didn't get to exploit that very much last night though. Has anyone else wanted Recruitable artifact removal that is not subject to summoning sickness?

Also, I have a question (mainly for Legend, but also for anyone else who has played with stuff like Dragon Whelp): how important have you found it to have the lone flying threat? I can see that having an evasive beater like that gives you an alternative strategy to Recruit a straight-forward attacker and abuse SoLS with it. But I ask because I have liked having 3 Jayas just because her synergy in this deck is ridiculous and SoLS adds even more synergy by allowing discarded creatures to be returned to hand.

RockOfTheFormat

08-01-2008, 03:05 AM

This whole deck idea is amazing, and there are so many awesome trix that could fit in the mold for SB control. Props to the creator.

Michael Keller

08-01-2008, 01:37 PM

how important have you found it to have the lone flying threat? I can see that having an evasive beater like that gives you an alternative strategy to Recruit a straight-forward attacker and abuse SoLS with it. But I ask because I have liked having 3 Jayas just because her synergy in this deck is ridiculous and SoLS adds even more synergy by allowing discarded creatures to be returned to hand.

The thing is with Imperial Painter that anything (sans Humility) can be destroyed with Blast effects with a Painter in play, so having the flying threat isn't really all that important. Dragon Whelp serves as an alternate win condition. A pumpable flyer is something that gives the deck a little bit of power; something it once lacked.

Three Jaya isn't a good idea because of the curve of the deck. Rarely will you have access to three straight red mana, especially in the early going. Keep it at two, that's a perfect number. Remember, you have to wait a turn to get her online.

Speaking of Humility, I've kind of thought about Anarchy in the board. People are starting to play that damn card everywhere. Magus is what helps me get around it, and I've won games because on him out and Humility in play, but it's still annoying (even thought the SoLS helps you get around it too). Thoughts?

Zach Tartell

08-01-2008, 03:17 PM

I reckon that, with a full playset (you do play all four, right) of SoL&S, you should be find through Humility. Unless, of course, you have extra slots in your board.

Michael Keller

08-01-2008, 03:20 PM

I reckon that, with a full playset (you do play all four, right) of SoL&S, you should be find through Humility. Unless, of course, you have extra slots in your board.

I actually only play three at the moment. I could, however, fit a fourth in the board against things like Humility and straight aggro.

DrewliusMaximus

08-03-2008, 02:41 PM

I tried playing Burning Wish about a month ago, which would allow you to fit in 1 SB Anarchy and actually be able to use it. I ended up not liking it at the time because creating a Wish board was taking so many slots, and drawing multiple Wishes sometimes meant there weren't enough relevant Wish targets. However, I was playing them in slightly different build (no SoLS), and I did like being able to get relevant hate like Shattering Spree and Pyroclasm in game 1. If I were to try it again, I would use 3 Burning Wishes and dedicate maybe 5 SB slots to it.

Madpeep

08-04-2008, 08:15 PM

Do you have any pointers on the Aggro Loam or Survival matchups? I'm having a terrible time with both of them. What do you typically sideboard in against either of them and/or what aspect of each deck to you try to attack? At the Arkham's Asylum tournament last week, I ended up going 1-3. Yeah, there were only 4 rounds. My losses were to Aggro Loam, U/G/R Thresh, and Survival.

Michael Keller

08-04-2008, 11:25 PM

My losses were to Aggro Loam, U/G/R Thresh, and Survival.

Those are some of the deck's less than favorable matches. The strategy is to keep your opponent off the relevant colored sources with Magus and Blast effects, if you can.

It seems like a Faerie Macabre in the main would solve some issues against those decks, which inherently run off some important cards in the graveyard (Life from the Loam, Squee, Genesis, Thresh, etc.). Those decks don't see a lot of play in my meta, so I wouldn't play the Faerie in the main.

Post-board, if you're on the play against decks like Survival and Thresh, get the Trinispheres and Pyrokinesis in. They help. Against Loam, bring in the Faeries and Blast the relevant spells (Dreams, Terravore). Lightning Bolt helps on Crusher.

EDIT: As a little side-note, I'd like to know who keeps voting down on this particular thread. If there is a way you'd like this thread to be improved, please say so so we can find out what needs to be done to improve communication and how to continue to develop this very competitive and fun creation. Our goal here is to make it five-stars and shape this to be (one of) the best decks in the format.

DrewliusMaximus

08-05-2008, 03:29 PM

I still use Blood Moons in the SB. Against Loam, would Moon disable the cycle-lands' ability?

Also, I've liked having 1 SB Stuffy Doll, which I know works well against Red Thresh, and I would assume would work well against Loam.

Doymecca

08-13-2008, 09:09 AM

wow, somehow this deck got pushed back to page 2, so first of all BUMP.

Second hope to see many of these decks at Gen Con this weekend, as a player of Imperial Painter my self i am looking forward to fun mirror matches.

See you all at Gen Con

Michael Keller

08-14-2008, 12:20 AM

Absolutely, good luck man. I really wanted to attend but I have an important Navy D.E.P. meeting on Saturday and unfortunately can't attend. The rest of the team will be there in full force!

Either way, go Imperial Painter!!

chokin

08-14-2008, 04:07 PM

I still use Blood Moons in the SB. Against Loam, would Moon disable the cycle-lands' ability?

Also, I've liked having 1 SB Stuffy Doll, which I know works well against Red Thresh, and I would assume would work well against Loam.

Blood Moon only affects lands in play. Needle works, I believe.

What does everyone think of the blue splash?

Skeggi

08-14-2008, 04:16 PM

What does everyone think of the blue splash?

I believe general consensus is to keep it mono red.

Michael Keller

08-18-2008, 02:05 PM

Make sure you all check out www.classicquarter.com sometime soon. There'll be an article about Imperial Painter written by DJ Catchem (a Sourcer). It should be awesome!

DJ, keep us posted!

DJ Catchem

08-20-2008, 08:25 AM

Thanks, Legend!

The article is now up:

http://www.classicquarter.com/articles/030_080820.asp

Basically, this one is a preview article for Imperial Recruiter, which is in the next Magic Online expansion (Master's Edition II). The article is pretty basic, introducing the card and the deck. I wanted to go with Legend's list here because we're literally one card off (REB) come Tempest, which is right around the corner, and because the list is proven and very strong. It may be even moreso online; MTGO is getting duals as well this time out, and quite a majority of the decks already simply lose to Magus Of The Moon. This thing is going to be a monster in the format

From here, I'll be diving into the playtesting and matchups for the following articles, so it may be a little more exciting for any of you non-MTGO players.

Thanks again, Legend. I really appreciate it.

--->DJ

Michael Keller

08-20-2008, 10:47 AM

Very nice. It's good to get the deck out there. It's popularity is already noted, but this is a fantastic way of getting people who are unfamiliar with the concept to play the deck. Granted, the price of Recruiters are still (unfortunately) high, but that's why this article helps to shed some light on the matter.

Very nicely done.

Brehn

08-26-2008, 09:35 AM

Food for thought, here is a black-splash list I've stumbled upon. The player who submitted this into deckcheck.net wrote that he was 4-0 at GenCon with it and reached 4th place, though I have no idea what exactly he's referring to:

There might be some odd choices (Infernal Tutor? Extirpate?) and some strange exclusions (Vexing Shusher? Faerie Macabre?), also 61 cards, but still: in my opinion the biggest problem of this deck has always been it's topdeck-reliance, with no way to manipulate draws or generate card advantage. I think A Legend has incorporated Magma Jet for this reason at some point. This list gives up the DS manabase which produced explosive starts to incorporate a card advantage machine with Dark Confidant and a strong (?) backup plan with Demigod.

The landcount (17) seems a little bit low on paper, though I didn't encounter problems in the limited goldfishing I've done with it. SoLaS is probably too manaintensive for this list, and I don't know if Jitte is a close-to-equivalent replacement for aggro matchups. The sideboarded Smothers look like a nice replacements for Lightning Bolts.

Maveric78f

08-26-2008, 10:41 AM

I tried to play this deck. In the order, here are the reflexions I did to myself :
1/ Grindstone is really a bad card, you never want one in opening hand, and you can't have it reliably when you need it to finish the game.
2/ Trinket mage solves that point, enabling you to play only 1 grindstone and having the whole combo tutorisable with recruiter (through trinket mage).
3/ Trinket mage is definitely a good card in legacy. If I make the effort to plya blue, I'll want to play at least 3 of them and want to play a toolbox with at least EE, great furnace and some anti-graveyard.
4/ If I play trinket mage and imperial recruiter, sensei's diving top is golden. It can be tutored with trinket mage and it takes advantage of all the shuffling effects with the ability to fix up the bad topdeck mode of the deck.
5/ If I play blue with a lot of shuffling effects, I probably want to play brainstorm too.
6/ SSG is too explosive for the deck. I abandon it. Yeah, 4 slots.
7/ Jaya is too difficult to cast and too easy to be dealt with. I abandon it. Yeah 1 slot.
8/ This step has not been made yet, but I plan to play only 1 magus MD, in order to free 3 slots for multiple things. Here is my list before reducing the magus count:

// Creatures 18
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
1 [SHM] Heap Doll (prefered to tormod's crypt because it can be fetched by both tutors and it can be equipped when you topdeck it)
1 [UL] Goblin Welder (very good, I would play more than 1 if I had free slots)

If I remove 3 MD magus, I would probably play 1 more BS and 2 more Goblin Welder.

DrewliusMaximus

08-26-2008, 12:16 PM

It's too bad the GenCon top 8 list never got posted, but apparently it ran FOW, Academy Ruins and a bunch of basic lands. It seems like adding in Welder in a UR list is a great idea since Magus turns Academy Ruins into a Mountain.

MTG Guru

08-27-2008, 03:57 PM

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but has anyone considered Spinal Villian?

moOnsteak

08-27-2008, 08:06 PM

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but has anyone considered Spinal Villian?

Except that Spinal Villian's CMC is 2R which is far better than 1RR in a U-splashed build.

Michael Keller

08-28-2008, 12:32 PM

Except that Spinal Villian's CMC is 2R which is far better than 1RR in a U-splashed build.

That may be true, however Chrome Mox and SSG help to nullify that problem. Typically, though, I mana burn off Jaya, but the trade-off is still huge.

EDIT: And I'm playing some super-secret tech this Saturday at the 8/30 Trop event in Syracuse!

DrewliusMaximus

08-28-2008, 01:07 PM

Thanks Whienot. I just saw the list on deckcheck. The manabase does look a little basic-heavy...either more Volcanics or more Fetchlands seem like they could work. Nonetheless, this build apparently did well sacrificing explosiveness for consistency. But I'm still hesitant to drop the Stompy mana-base.

cwt1220

08-28-2008, 03:02 PM

That may be true, however Chrome Mox and SSG help to nullify that problem. Typically, though, I mana burn off Jaya, but the trade-off is still huge.

EDIT: And I'm playing some super-secret tech this Saturday at the 8/30 Trop event in Syracuse!

I can't wait to see this!!!! I have been having a lot of success with this deck in my area. The only problem I have been having is with Survival, which apparently is not just me.

DrewliusMaximus

08-29-2008, 12:51 AM

I was thinking about 1 MD Heap Doll so I could have at least one MD anti-graveyard that can also be played (and equipped if I run SoLS) unlike Faerie Macabre. I haven't played much against Survival, but I assume that being able to get rid of Squee would help.

Maveric78f

08-29-2008, 03:07 AM

Heap Doll is very good in a blue splashed deck because you can tutor it with both trinket and recruiter and because it can be equipped when its ability is not relevant.

I've already included it in my deck, 2 pages ago.

I want some kind of creature removal MD, and I plan to try Pyrite Bomb and Cursed Scroll. The first cantrips in the worst case and the second is quite synergic with the deck which tends to empty its hand very fast.

DrewliusMaximus

08-29-2008, 08:55 PM

But what about Heap Doll in mono-red? Even without Trinket Mages, having one recruitable anti-graveyard card that can also carry a SoLS seems worth it.

Maverick, I like the idea of keeping the stompy manabase and playing blue, but don't you have problems with early game Wastelands?

Michael Keller

08-29-2008, 09:26 PM

Tomorrow is the big day. Go Imperial Painter!

No matter what happens, I'll post my updated list with results. I'm banking on good ones, so keep your eyes peeled for a report.

chokin

08-30-2008, 04:56 PM

I don't know how I feel about the inclusion of Heap Doll in Imperial Painter, but it sounds like there has been some success with him. I think that the Stompy manabase is awesome, but doesn't have much room for duals AND Magus. I suppose Chrome Mox imprinted with a Trinket Mage or any card(once a painter is down) can be done, but it just seems kinda weird and possibly inconsistent and really anti-synergistic on paper.

If you have a Painter down, you're probably winning since you can counter/destroy anything. You're just waiting for the combo or a finisher.

So. If one were to run a splash of blue, would it be better to do Stompy+duals or just a manabase of duals+basics+fetch? And then would it be right to keep 4 Magus in either(lose burst in non-Stompy, but cut yourself from blue with Stompy)?

I want some kind of creature removal MD, and I plan to try Pyrite Bomb and Cursed Scroll. The first cantrips in the worst case and the second is quite synergic with the deck which tends to empty its hand very fast.

Isn't Painter+Blasts+Bolt good enough? I think SDT would be better(filter vs cantrip). Don't feel like I'm picking on you, I just want more insight on all of this.

I just feel like toolboxing this much is watering the deck down. Even if I ran Trinket Mage, I'd be running more than 1 Grindstone.

Maveric78f

08-30-2008, 05:28 PM

Maverick, I like the idea of keeping the stompy manabase and playing blue, but don't you have problems with early game Wastelands?

I'm slowly removing step by step the stompy elements of the deck.

cwt1220

09-02-2008, 02:04 AM

When do we get to see the new tech from the Beta Trop. tournament??

-Chris-

Michael Keller

09-02-2008, 02:19 AM

At the Beta Trop tournament, I ended up going 3-3 on some close, close matches that ended fairly disappointedly. I ended up trying something a little different by trying a single Faerie Macabre in the main as I anticipated a lot of Ichorid or Survival, which tend to pop up in larger Syracuse events. I traded a little bit of fire-power for some help against those archetypes:

+1 Faerie Macabre
-1 Dragon Whelp

The secret tech I used in the sideboard was Helm of Obedience and Leyline, actually in the sideboard. I was able to get off the Helm by itself numerous times without the Leyline. I actually ended up nabbing in one match an opponent's Eternal Witness, which in turn brought back my Grindstone for the win.

All in all, it was a mediocre showing. I didn't prepare as much as I could have with all the things I'm trying to sort through in my life right now with departing to the Navy and all. At any rate, I wasn't going to miss this event and was glad I got to play.

Wins (3)
vs. Goyf Sligh
vs. Survival-Painter
vs. Eva Green

Losses (3)
vs. I.T.F
vs. Goyf Slgih
vs. MS Paint

A starking contrast to what I was expecting, much to my chagrin. I got paired against some of my worst matches (Sligh and Eva). One thing to note: All but one of the six rounds went to tight game three's, and some of my losses were due to mana-flood and dead draws.

I really feel this archetype is strong, but needs a second color (possibly) to increase consistency. I'm not saying go gung-go and split it with a new color, but just a splash of blue for Trinket Mage or Divining Top. But note that in doing so, some of the deck's major control elements or offense could be brittled.

chokin

09-02-2008, 02:24 AM

At the Beta Trop tournament, I ended up going 3-3 on some close, close matches that ended fairly disappointedly. I ended up trying something a little different by trying a single Faerie Macabre in the main as I anticipated a lot of Ichorid or Survival, which tend to pop up in larger Syracuse events. I traded a little bit of fire-power for some help against those archetypes:

+1 Faerie Macabre
-1 Dragon Whelp

The secret tech I used in the sideboard was Helm of Obedience and Leyline, actually in the sideboard. I was able to get off the Helm by itself numerous times without the Leyline. I actually ended up nabbing in one match an opponent's Eternal Witness, which in turn brought back my Grindstone for the win.

All in all, it was a mediocre showing. I didn't prepare as much as I could have with all the things I'm trying to sort through in my life right now with departing to the Navy and all. At any rate, I wasn't going to miss this event and was glad I got to play.

Wins (3)
vs. Goyf Sligh
vs. Survival-Painter
vs. Eva Green

Losses (3)
vs. I.T.F
vs. Goyf Slgih
vs. MS Paint

A starking contrast to what I was expecting, much to my chagrin. I got paired against some of my worst matches (Sligh and Eva). One thing to note: All but one of the six rounds went to tight game three's, and some of my losses were due to mana-flood and dead draws.

I really feel this archetype is strong, but needs a second color (possibly) to increase consistency. I'm not saying go gung-go and split it with a new color, but just a splash of blue for Trinket Mage or Divining Top. But note that in doing so, some of the deck's major control elements or offense could be brittled.

How'd you feel about Leyline as GY Hate? Did it suck not having it in the opening hand or drawing into it?

Michael Keller

09-02-2008, 02:26 AM

Yeah it was pretty lousy. I felt that there was really no need to have it if I played the Faerie's anyway, except to replace them with the Leylines and then Helm post-board. Seriously, the Helms alone were doing just fine. Like I said the list is strong, but it needs a make-over.

I really didn't do so hot at this one because I got too lax and too cute with my play. I really blame myself and not the deck (even though it did shit the bed on me a few times, it has been very consistent before this).

cwt1220

09-02-2008, 03:25 AM

Right now I am running the base list -1 SOLS and -2 recruiter (cause i don't have them yet) +3 Divining top. They really help me weed out those dead draws late in the game, if it happens to go that far. I went 4-1 at my last local tournament, losing to survival in the finals, but beating loam control, u/g madness, r/b land destruction/discard, and the same survival deck.

-Chris-

Oberon

09-02-2008, 05:44 AM

Right now I am running the base list -1 SOLS and -2 recruiter (cause i don't have them yet) +3 Divining top. They really help me weed out those dead draws late in the game, if it happens to go that far.

I myself made the following switches to the original list :
-1 Solas
-4 bolts
+2 tops
+3 magma jets

It really improved consistency. On a side note, 3 tops shouldn't be used without the full playset of recruiters (or other shufflers).

Michael Keller

09-02-2008, 01:21 PM

Imperial Painter made it all this way, guys! It's now a Deck to Beat! Very cool.

Peter_Rotten

09-02-2008, 01:37 PM

Imperial Painter made it all this way, guys! It's now a Deck to Beat! Very cool.

Don't get TOO excited. It was only one of 4 different Painter builds and this is the only good Painter thread we have. Other versions included the following:

I was thinking about adding Sensei's Divining Top this weekend to my build. I really think it would have helped with the consistency. Of course, in this scenario, considering a color "splash", fetchlands would help tremendously with Divining Top as well and open some doors for the deck to produce.

Don't get TOO excited. It was only one of 4 different Painter builds and this is the only good Painter thread we have.

Isn't that the point of furthering an archetype and making it the best out of what you have? Sure seems that way to me. Imperial Painter has proven to be the best of the Painter archetypes because of the results it has posted, not necessarily because it is the "highest" of four evils and lack of reading pertaining to those other builds.

I'd be interested in seeing some more Painter threads dedicated to other versions of the combo, don't get me wrong, but those versions do not include Imperial Recruiters and are not even close to the same concept. The only similarities might be Red Elemental Blast in the main. But comparing the other Painter lists to this one because of thread scarcity isn't really legit.

Those variations deserve their own respective threads, just like Thresh, unless we come to a hybrid version which merges the concepts into a super-archetype. All I'm saying is, Imperial Painter hasn't "limped" to the finish line. It either belongs here on its own merit or it doesn't.

Skeggi

09-04-2008, 05:16 AM

And on a side-note, I'm affraid we'll soon be seing this monster in the DTBF.

I like to pat myself on the shoulder and showcase my amazing insight in stuff other people do. Grtz on you guys working yourselves up here :cool:

chokin

09-04-2008, 05:03 PM

I really like Faerie Macabre in the deck. It shrinks Goyf, helps in the Cephalid Breakfast matchup(yeah, my buddy just picked up the deck), good vs Loam and is ok vs Ichorid.

I find myself wanting more Faerie Macabres, but then in some matchups I don't like it at all. But I guess I could always Imprint it on a Mox or pitch to Jaya.

What do you think, A Legend? Is more Faerie good? Or is one enough with SoLaS? Or do you think Heap Doll is better?

Michael Keller

09-05-2008, 08:26 PM

It all depends. SoLaS is really great for recursion, but more Macabres could work well with the advancement of decks which rely on the graveyard to win. Of course, it depends on your meta. If it's an aggro-heavy one, then Sword works fine by itself over the Macabre.

DrewliusMaximus

09-05-2008, 08:29 PM

I might be the only one, but I still like 3 Jaya in mono-red Imperial Painter for the sake of consistency. In a deck that relies so much on synergy with Painter's Servant and top-decking, I would rather see too much Jaya than not enough (she even pitches to herself).

I know there are potential problems with casting cost and sometimes even the cost of using her ability. And I know she can be dealt with fairly easily. But I've tried to pay close attention to the times I see Jaya and consider how it helps or hurts me, and I've mostly been happy to have 3. The better chance of combining Jaya with Servant early, the more frequent ability to guarantee a useful topdeck, and the occasional benefit of having back-up Jayas should the first one get removed, seem to have helped me keep pressure on opponents. Without splashing a color, I feel like this a subtle way of maximizing consistency.

As you can see, it's Legend's list with 1 MD change and like 4 Chalice. Yeah, it seems stupid, but I needed it.

Me vs UG Madness(house deck) 2-1
Game 1 - I keep a bad hand and draw lands for 4 turns(wtf). The game ends up with me chumping creatures left and right until I die. 0-1
Game 2 - Board out some junk for 3Spheres. I Painter+Jaya lock him. 1-1
Game 3 - I combo on turn 3. 2-1

Me vs 5c Slivers 1-2
Game 1 - I keep a great hand but get a bunch of junk draws. I lose. 0-1
Game 2 - City of Traitors, Painter. Tap City, Play another City, Grindstone ftw. 1-1
Game 3 - I lock everything down, but draw junk again. I get my Dragon Whelp killed like a tard and it causes me to lose. I am stupid. 1-2

Me vs Mono Green Enchantress Aggro 2-0
Game 1 - I win at 4 life. He didn't play many lands so I milled a lot of stuff before getting my Painter out. 2-0
Game 2 - 3Sphere gives me time to get a Painter down and blast away his board and swing with a Painter with a Sword. 2-0

Me vs Spring Tide 2-0
Game 1 - Turn 1 Grindstone. Turn 2 Painter. Turn 3 I try to go off, but he Snaps my Painter and I mill 8 cards. He uses 2 FoWs to stop my Painter (MD Blasts ftw). Just like the game with Enchantress Aggro, I mill like 20 cards from him and end up using Recruiter with a Sword to get me my Painter back. He tries to go off and fizzles, I win. 1-0
Game 2 - Board in Chalice and 3Sphere. First turn CotV@1. He counters my 3Sphere. I play CotV and he scoops. 2-0

I get placed 2nd. I think that in my meta, Magus is very mediocre right now. It kills a lot of decks like Landstill, 8Post(yeah, it's played), Breakfast and one of the Sliver decks, but most people only play basics and Terramorphic. I might consider dropping the Stompy manabase for a UR Fetch+Duals build with Trinket Mage and a mini toolbox. Some games I wished I was playing Trinket Mage, but then I lose all of my explosiveness and Magus hurts me a lot. I played like an idiot here and there, but I managed to do ok.

Rush

09-06-2008, 04:23 AM

After doing minimal testing with this deck, I can honestly say, it's my favorite deck to ever play in Legacy. I just played a deck running 4 Blessings. First game was a tie. I won the next two thanks to Macabre. : )
Also, the only time I lost with this deck was the first time I played. I played against R/G Stompy and only lost because I was so new to the deck.

DrewliusMaximus

09-08-2008, 08:54 PM

Has anyone done much testing with UR minus the Stompy manabase? After the Gencon results I haven't heard much else about this approach.

I just played a few games with mono-red MD using 3 Tops and 1 Goblin Welder. I first thought about using Welder again when the added SoLS provided extra artifacts to play with, but I'm trying Tops instead of SoLS. With extra artifacts (SoLS or Tops), is Welder worth it?

chokin

09-08-2008, 11:22 PM

Has anyone done much testing with UR minus the Stompy manabase? After the Gencon results I haven't heard much else about this approach.

I just played a few games with mono-red MD using 3 Tops and 1 Goblin Welder. I first thought about using Welder again when the added SoLS provided extra artifacts to play with, but I'm trying Tops instead of SoLS. With extra artifacts (SoLS or Tops), is Welder worth it?

I personally don't like Goblin Welder in this deck. He's ok for sneaking a Grindstone/Painter into play past counters, but isn't that why we run 8 Blasts+Vexing Shusher?

I'm considering Top as a one-of in a UR version. I don't feel that the Mono Red version has room.

Reasons TO run blue:
-Trinket Mage because fetches Grindstone and a bunch of neat artifacts(Crypt, Needle, Top and even Heap Doll was mentioned)
-Brainstorm/Ponder can be used to make better hands.
-Force of Will if you run enough blue.

Reasons AGAINST it:
-It's probably best to drop the Stompy mana base to support it.
-Duals/Fetch+Magus don't get along.
-Consistency drops a bit I think.

I dunno. I want more opinions. Those are my personal thoughts.

mrkram

09-09-2008, 12:12 AM

i've been playing a really budget version of this deck and found that splashing really hurts the consistency of my version of this deck. this is one of my favorite decks to play - amazing legacy deck.

The Rack

09-09-2008, 01:47 AM

A Legend, I may sound totally stupid by asking this but why play Magus over Blood Moon.

The pros of playing Magus:
He Attacks

The cons:
He dies to every instant creature removal in the game plus other removal if basics are out.
The deck is trying to win with Grindstone and milling not trying to swing.

Pros of Blood Moon:
It only dies to Deed and Vindicate and that's if they've color fixed

Cons:
It doesn't attack

Maybe I'm just not seeing something but it seems to me that Blood Moon with maybe 1 Magus to fetch with Imperial Recruiter would be better. Just a question.

thefreakaccident

09-09-2008, 02:01 AM

Magus is tutorable via imperial recruiter...

Also, he is a beatstick :wink:

Michael Keller

09-09-2008, 02:23 AM

Yeah. Turn one Magus really shuts games down for opponents who thrive off non-basics. And most importantly, getting in there for two every turn while being able to shut off your opponent's mana supply is very good.

Splash in the tutor-effect that Imperial Recruiter provides and you've got the makings of one very pissed off Human Wizard.

The Rack

09-09-2008, 02:32 AM

I understand that but it seems that the strategies are very conflicting. Either beat down 20 life or Grind them to dust. I think 1 Magus of the Moon would be good because it can be tutorable but Blood Moon can't be destroyed except for decks that you should already destroy. I just think that people over look Blood Moon but Enchantments are the hardest things to get rid of in Legacy and if it truly does win you the game I wouldn't want that topdecked Plains into StP be GG for you ya know what I mean?

Brehn

09-09-2008, 02:35 AM

Reasons AGAINST it:
-It's probably best to drop the Stompy mana base to support it.

What you really sacrifice:
- Turn 1 Moon effect. This now requires Land + Chrome Mox + Simian Spirit Guide, which is not probable enough to do it on a regular basis. But turn 2 Moon effect still happens a lot.
- Goldfish Speed. No more Turn 1 Painter, Turn 2 Grindstone, win. But sacrificing speed for concistency is not too bad (especially in a deck that can protect its combo against counters, with Blasts).

Also, The Rack: I'm sure you can think of better Blood Moon removal than Deed or Vindicate.

Michael Keller

09-09-2008, 02:48 AM

Magus is really in there to soak up Swords to Plowshares as a target over Painter's Servant and to shut off an opponent's mana supply.

Ultimately, when Sword of Light and Shadow hits the table, your opponent rethinks their strategy because now you have a creature that has protection from cards like Swords and cannot be targeted, but need to be dealt with. This can confuse an opponent into making the wrong decision by putting them on the spot. Generally, if a Painter goes untouched, that's a good thing for you and it usually means you win the game.

No matter what anyone else tells you, the deck does not play like Dragon Stompy. You play a variety of control elements fastened around a set group of cards which are useful on their own terms. Just because both decks play Moon effects doesn't mean they are the same, just similar in a single specific aspect within a bigger picture. The similarities between the decks are there, but vague. You basically have more thinking to do with this deck than Dragon Stompy

Imperial Painter is a very confusing deck to play against and around because you don't win with Grindstone...but you can.

That's the frightening thing.

The Rack

09-09-2008, 03:00 AM

Also, The Rack: I'm sure you can think of better Blood Moon removal than Deed or Vindicate.

I meant that Deed and Vindicate are usually only the maindeck enchantment removal. Grip and other tricks come in game 2 but I think you knew what I meant.

Legend: I like the deck and am not attacking it at all but saying that Magus is there to soak up StP there are plenty of other better creatures that can do that. Have you ever considered playing Blood Moon in place of Magus? I think it's a valid argument that Blood Moon in many ways is better than Magus. My 2 cents.

Brehn

09-09-2008, 03:42 AM

No matter what anyone else tells you, the deck does not play like Dragon Stompy. You play a variety of control elements fastened around a set group of cards which are useful on their own terms. Just because both decks play Moon effects doesn't mean they are the same, just similar in a single specific aspect within a bigger picture. The similarities between the decks are there, but vague. You basically have more thinking to do with this deck than Dragon Stompy

That's true. That's also the reason for me not understanding:

Why on earth do you play with the Dragon Stompy manabase?

The DS manabase is good at powering out big threats early. In the first two turns, DS wants to play 2 spells whose converted mana costs add up to 5 or more. The manabase is designed to support that. However, playing 2 spells with a total cc of >4 in the first 2 turns is like cheating, so there have to be drawbacks. And there are some:
- DS mulligans a fuckton.
- After powering out these two spells, DS is often on 14 life or has sacrificed 2 City of Traitors.
- After powering out these two spells, not-too-lucky DS players always topdeck dead Chrome Moxen, lands and SSGs.
- The manabase makes the curve suck. Everything DS plays MUST cost 2, 2R or 3. Usual lists play 2 exceptions to this rule (RPD and Slogger) and both usually win the game if they're unanswered.

Let's look at your list.
- 4 cards costing 1 (you don't play Chalice so those are ok with the manabase)
- 12 cards costing R
- 1 card costing RR
- 2 cards costing 1RR
- 1 card costing 2RR
and you're playing a 1:1-copy of the DS manabase (sans Seething Song). How can this work? You don't want to power out early threats. Why bother playing a Turn 1 Painter when you can play it afterwards with REB-backup? Only exception: a first turn Magus. DS plays 8 Moons and the same manabase and doesn't always have the first turn Moon. If you have it, playing only 4 copies, you've just been lucky.

Edit: Another problem DS suffers from: if the first two threats are dealt with, it has a large amount of dead topdecks. Gray Ogres, Chrome Moxen, Lands; with no library manipulation. Look at your deck. If the first two threats are dealt with, you have an even larger amount of dead topdecks. Gray Ogres, Chrome Moxen, Lands and 8 R-costing instants that don't do anything; with no library manipulation.

chokin

09-09-2008, 05:38 AM

@ Brehn - I think that first turn Magus is extremely powerful and can occasionally win games by himself. The mana base is good for first turn 3Spheres as well. Against combo, being able to play this early on can buy you 2+turns. I personally play Chalice right now, which I feel is more reasons to run the DS base. Also, I don't feel like Pyroblast or REB are dead all the time. They fight counters :P

I think the blue splash might be worth it. Trinket Mage can eliminate Grindstone slots(not sure if that's the best idea though) and allow singleton artifacts to be run. I'm sure there are some games where you were like "Damn I wish I had a Needle/Crypt/Top/ArtifactX".

I'm starting to lean more for the splash. I hope it doesn't cause a thread split lol.

Brehn

09-09-2008, 06:51 AM

Sure first turn Magus and first turn Trinisphere is great. But even with the DS manabase, you don't get it consistently. I'd rather just play Chrome Moxen and SSGs which still allow second turn Trinispheres and Magi - not too bad against combo, especially if you have outs to EtW.

And how can you get Chalice working in this deck? Are you playing massive amounts of Vexing Shushers?

chokin

09-09-2008, 05:08 PM

Sure first turn Magus and first turn Trinisphere is great. But even with the DS manabase, you don't get it consistently. I'd rather just play Chrome Moxen and SSGs which still allow second turn Trinispheres and Magi - not too bad against combo, especially if you have outs to EtW.

And how can you get Chalice working in this deck? Are you playing massive amounts of Vexing Shushers?

I didn't feel I had to run more than the one Shusher. The reason is the matchups where I needed it most(Burn and Tide decks) it locked them out of EVERYTHING. I can still play Imperial Recruiter, Magus, Jaya, Sword, etc, so I could easily Recruit a Shusher and go for it or just swing with anything(since they can't do anything really).

Yes Brehn, first turn Magus and 3Sphere is not consistent. There are a maximum of 4 cards of a certain name in a 60 card deck. Of course you can't expect to get first turn Magus/3Spheres all the time. But with a Dragon Stompy mana base, you can also do first turn Recruiter to get a second turn Magus. With a non-DS base, you would have to get that second or third turn Recruiter into a third or fourth turn Magus.

Also, what outs do you have to EtW? Pyrokenisis maybe?

Rush

09-09-2008, 06:07 PM

Quick question: Did anyone else see the Painter/Grindstone + Dreadnought/Stifle deck that won a recent European Vintage tournament?

Brehn

09-09-2008, 08:32 PM

Just because Chalice randomly wins some matchups doesn't justify its inclusion in this deck. It's dissynergy^2. A sideboard card at max. Running 4 Chalice and only 1 Shusher main in a Grindstone deck is pure madness. And I once thought that running Tarmogoyf + Jotun Grunt in the same deck is bad...

@Manabase: I don't actually recommend cutting all two-mana lands. I just don't understand why A Legend's (and he's probably not the only one) manabase looks like this:

8 Two-Mana Lands
10 One-Mana Lands
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

when this is the exact Dragon Stompy manabase, copied and pasted, just that this deck has an extremely different curve and extremely different mana requirements.

For example, have a look at Maveric68f's manabase in the list he posted on the last page:

8 Two-Mana Lands
12 One-Mana Lands
4 Chrome Mox

Or the manabase of the list I've posted before:

17 One-Mana Lands
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

I have no idea if one of these manabases is optimal. I just know: The DS manabase is designed to support DS's requirements. Therefore it can't be optimal for Imperial Painter. You don't play Threshold with Landstill's manabase either (Well, actually you do and call it Dreadstill :P ). Those 2 other manabases might or might not be correct, this has to be tested.

Rush:
a) You could have just linked it
b) it's Vintage
c) does it even run Recruiter?

Rush:
a) You could have just linked it
b) it's Vintage
c) does it even run Recruiter?
d) gtfo

While I agree with your arguments on the mana requirements of this deck there is no reason to get nasty with Rush. I have PMed him for the list as I am very interested in some tech that MIGHT be portable to Legacy.

DrewliusMaximus

09-09-2008, 11:21 PM

I was searching 2-power creatures and I found Llawan, Cephalid Empress. Has anyone tried her in a UR build? Seems like a hell of a 1-of.

But seriously, there are so many different builds of Painter+Grindstone that who cares? It worked for me, so I threw it out there.

I think you may have a point about the mana base. But, I do like having a lot of ways to get my mana out fast.

DrewliusMaximus

09-19-2008, 08:24 PM

After seeing Relic of Progenitus, it's pretty clear that there will be 4 in the SB of my mono-red Painter deck. I finally got to play some Magic with a couple of friends last night (cleaning up after a hurricane is a bitch) and I dropped SoLS in preparation for the addition of Relics. I tried a MD with a weird combination of 2 Lightning Bolts, 2 Magma Jets, and 2 Tops and I actually liked it. The consistency seemed good, and without any dependence on the graveyard, the Jets and Tops are ready to help search for a graveyard nuke. Any thoughts about the following list?:

Why this over Crypt? Crypt is free, no cost for activation. Unless it's to make Goyf a 0/1, I don't understand. It's better than Scabbling Claw/Phy Furnace by a longshot, but I don't think it's better than Crypt. Maybe it's useful for when you have Mtn, Mtn, 2-Land and you wanna play Jaya and don't want to take burn, but I think at that point you may want to use Top.

I like the idea of Magma Jet. Bolt gives more reach, but Jet provides card filter which is really nice.

Got back from a local 10 man tourney. Took first. Lost one game to a Kithkin deck because I somehow managed to draw 7 lands in a row after starting with a 3 land hand. The card immediately after was a REB.

Mantis

09-20-2008, 05:32 AM

Crypt is the better card sideboard as Ichorid can sometimes already have an army up by the time you have the mana to play and activate Relic.
Relic on the other hand is much better in the mainboard, as it's never dead and it's very good against Goyf. Anyway, I think Relic is an extremely versatile card for the mainboard and I wouldn't find it unlikely if decks just start to pack 4 of them in their mainboards.

Sanguine Voyeur

09-20-2008, 09:43 AM

Why this over Crypt?Relic is good against decks that Crypt isn't. The ability to whittle down graveyards makes it better against decks that utilize the it like Survival, Thresh, and anything with recursion. The second ability is similar to Crypt, but also acts as a Fog against Tarmogoyf and it cantrips.

DrewliusMaximus

09-20-2008, 02:47 PM

Crypt is the better card sideboard as Ichorid can sometimes already have an army up by the time you have the mana to play and activate Relic.

With Imperial Painter's manabase, this isn't really the case. 2 mana on turn 1 is the norm. And against Ichorid specifically, you also have 8 Blasts to counter most of their 1st turn discard spells should you only have access to 1 mana.

Why this over Crypt?

Generally, neutering Goyfs by hitting both graveyards is going to be a pretty big deal in this format I think. Also, one specific matchup that Imperial Painter could use some help with is Aggro Loam, and removing both graveyards minimizes Terravore as well. And like Sanguine Voyeur said, Relic cantrips, which is especially helpful in a deck that goes into topdecking mode easily.

Got back from a local 10 man tourney. Took first.

Nicely done.

Michael Keller

09-20-2008, 03:35 PM

I think there is also another important aspect the Relic brings to the table over Crypt. We know it removes both graveyards from the game, but it also removes itself, keeping Goyf at 0/1...or potentially killing it.

DrewliusMaximus

09-24-2008, 10:55 AM

Legend, I noticed you played a build in the Source tourney without Trinisphere in the SB and using 4 Shattering Spree instead of Heretic/Tinkerer. Did you miss the Trini? And did you prefer having the Sprees over the artifact-killing creatures?

Michael Keller

09-24-2008, 11:58 AM

Heretic works better. He has an ass of three and two-for-ones; destroying an artifact and dealing damage to an opponent without having to attack. Shattering Spree is good, but Heretic fits the theme and curve of the deck and is tutorable with Imperial Recruiter.