Fiancé wants me to sign a pre-nup

Me and the fiancé were discussing about purchasing some property just recently and she basically wanted to ask what I thought about a pre-nup. Honestly, I was expecting this to come-up at some stage of our relationship - she comes from a family where getting ahead and making money is KING. I come from a more traditional type of family where family unit is KING. She has more assets (and loves to rub my nose in it when she can). We make about the same amount of money. Does anyone know of any good pre-nup or collaborative lawyers who won't rip me off? I get the feeling this pre-nup will be heavily skewed in her favour so we'll need to negotiate to make it fair. Also do you recommend I get out my own pre-nup?

Comments

You need to talk to a lawyer, and I suggest you do so quietly, so you are prepared with the facts about this.
My non-legal understanding is they can be reasonably successful at protecting pre-relationship assets, but this protection declines over time. They also are less enforceable over assets accumulated during the relationship, and the family court can set them aside if it wants to.
So they don't seem to offer much more than what a good lawyer would get at the family court without a pre-nup in place…

From the language of your post, it sounds like you are young, and presumably don't have extensive assets. I would suggest the unpleasantness of negotiating such an arrangement now would be expensive and have little benefit for you.

As a bigger picture, it sounds like money is a bit of a sore point in this relationship. Are you sure you might not want to address this mismatch of financial priorities more directly? By that I mean agree on a set of principles together so you don't spend years arguing about money. For me, this sounds like a big red flag.

Finally, note the laws on de facto relationships. If you have been living together, you might already have established a relationship from the court's perspective, so a pre-nup is pointless.

I'm sorry to hear about this. What you probably want is a binding financial agreement. But keep in mind there are many rules… you both need to seek independent legal advice and there are also other ways they can be defeated and probably will, so even if you have one no things are assured.

Well the only thing assured is that females get special treatment in family courts and that males always come off worse.

You sound like an easy going nice guy, so when you said that your fiancé was rubbing your nose in that she held more assets I was taken back thinking what the hell? How old are you guys and hold long have you been going together.

I know this sounds a bit disrespectful because she if your partner, but this is a really big warning sign, and honestly who would want a partner treating you like that much less a wife. I would say have a really long think about it and maybe talk to a family member and close mate, you deserve someone nice who will treat you with respect. To me she is not treating you with respect.

I'd be asking, "Are you sure about our relationship? Because I am!" i.e. Why the need for the "contingency plan"!? I would give her a calm, loving, "No, dear - I won't be doing that." and give a couple of points why - and then shut up.

She may vent to begin with (most women that ask this would have either been in positions of authority, or have read financial books written by those that have. So let her vent. That's ok. It's how it ENDS that matters, not how she gets there. When she tries to restart negotiations, just say you love her, give her your couple of reasons, then wait a day or two. Calmly hold your ground without ever raising your voice. In the end she'll either shrug her shoulders and respect you have a right to your decision.

But if she chucks a week-long hissy fit instead… pouts and acts like her heart is broken, saying you don't love her, threatens to walk - then let her - that's great too - because someone like that will always love herself or money more than you. (That being case, you missed a bullet - you were saved from a relationship destined for years of money arguments.)

Having children with someone like that would have also meant a destroyed life for everyone, including the children.

Deciding to bind yourself to someone and start a family should mean all things in common. There should no longer be any "mine" and "yours" - it's all "ours", because you (should be) agreeing to work together towards common goals.

HOWEVER… You should show her you recognise her obvious need for financial security. Sit down and talk and plan financial goals and a budget together. Do it NOW - not after marriage. Tell her you won't be signing some emotionless contract, but that you are serious about your financial security together. Create a budget NOW and show her you're committed to sticking to it.

Take the lead. Say you want to have it so BOTH have to agree on all major purchases and financial decisions. Plan a budget. You both agree to bank most of your income towards saving/goals/etc. (in separate, high-interest online accounts - this is a kind of trial pre-nup NOW, so she can see she won't need it LATER).

You also both agree on an amount of "free money" each has per week. i.e. Each gets for example, $50 a week to spend on whatever you like. (This btw is mentioned in those financial books she or her family has probably been reading.)

You could be proactive, or you could nothing. But I'd always be wondering if she thought I was untrustworthy - or I was likely to cheat. Or, she wants the freedom to do so herself (if she later choses), without financial penalty. In my view the very LEAST a wronged person deserves is financial compensation. So the only pre-nup I'd put my name to is a fair, equitable, 50% division of all assets - with a non-enforceable "love" condition, that you agree to do your financial share.

That's an equal share even if one gets custody of children, btw. (The one that makes the decision to turn rouge shouldn't get a larger slice for their own benefit - in fact, the threat of extra financial burden might just be enough to keep them faithful.)

I know some people call pre-nups wise financial planning. (I've read several investing books that enourage it.) But I call it what it really is - selfishness. Unless it was a 50% divison of POST-MARRIAGE assets, someone like that could spend the rest of your marriage looking down on you, perhaps even go as far as criticising you for making less money then her when she's alone with friends and family, while simultaneously bragging of her own achievenments. (Hey, I don't know your girl. Just make sure YOU do.)

Or she could just be that women I mentioned above, that craves financial security and isn't convinced her man is on the same page wanting to provide that.

To be honest, things like pre-nups and legal guidelines for wills, etc. - such things don't stand up well in court anyway. (I know from experience. For example, it can be written that a suriving spouse automatically gets the house, and $x of all cash savings. But someone else can still contest that and cost the estate thousands.)

So again, I'd have to ask what the real motive is. Perhaps some well-meaning twit in her family has been read a few investing books, where the authors promote pre-nups. Well, that's ok for them - it's not their relationship on the line. All they really care about is selling their book!

That said, most people put more research into buying a car or bed than the person they plan to marry and create children with. Obviously she has some uncertainty there that should be dealt with BEFORE marriage. She's trying to deal with that artificially, with a pre-nup agreement. I'd be suggesting relationship/marriage counselling, reading some investing books together, and my "HOWEVER" paragraph above, over signing a pre-nup.

Don't marry because you promised her you would. You'll end up with regret for life.
Don't marry her because your parents are looking forward to grandchildren. They won't be raising them, and kids make marriage harder. They can be rewarding, but they do not make life less stressful.
Don't marry her because you don't think you'll be able to get anyone better. You may not, but life is not all about finding someone special. At the end of the day, you're the most special person in your life.
Marry her because you miss her when she's not there with you.
Marry her because she makes you smile.
Marry her because when you argue (and everyone argues), you both argue well, and she listens to your opinion, and treats you like an equal.

Please, don't do it, or at least consider your motives more carefully.
This is most likely the most important decision of your life.

YOLO as an excuse will not cut it in this case.

I did (despite misgivings which were much milder than yours appear).
Although many wonderful things came of my 20 year marriage, ongoing and long term happiness was not one. I brought a paid off home and other assets into the marriage. After 20 years these became mixed in with the general assets of the marriage.

I believe I would have been much happier with someone else better suited (I have since found someone wonderful though its early days and only time will tell).

Perhaps refuse any pre-nup, saying "if you love me, you won't worry about it" and see what she says.

Hmmmm….sweety,let me tell you a little something.You get one chance at this thing we call life,and a dress rehearsal it aint…so,for the sake of your own happiness (something i am sure is more paramount in the eyes of your parents than just having grandkids or upholding some "promise" you made with no insight into the actual repercussions of it)DON'T DO IT IF YOUR GUT TELLS YOU OTHERWISE.If you piss off a couple of people because of it,then that is their issue (unless they want to cough up for a divorce later on,or pay for any children you two may have to see a counselor because of said nasty divorce…and it sounds that it may get nasty by the sounds of this family) and you will have spent the best years of your life in misery.As someone who saw the effects of such a marriage with my own parents,i wouldn't wish that on anyone.Listen to your heart and do as it says (that word "sigh" at the end of the above post spoke volumes).And just to add a little less emotion,and a little more practicality…..money and family are the two major causes for divorce today,so with that said…..do you think those things are causing you anguish already ? And the ring isn't on the finger yet….just a thought.

this is ozbargain, we probably shouldnt be getting involved in this guy's marriage and personal life - especially if it could make or break a marriage, considering we know next to nothing about either one of them

@sirplus:
Rather than refusing, it's better to understand the motives of this woman. We are all second guessing her motives.

Is her family pressuring her to have a prenup? This may be a warning sign about a controlling family and may need to be addressed. If so, can you engage her family?

Is she suggesting a prenup for your sake? This is a flawed logic because the 80/20 rule (or there abouts) usually arises when both parties don't agree and the courts are forced to decide. A friend of mine (a queens council) suggested that prenups provided little protection and suggested avoiding them as they are a bad foundation for trust and respect in a marriage.

If she has an inferiority complex, you and future children may be the target, particularly if she doesn't see you as an equal or sees the kids as a weapon against you. She was described as "rubbing [your] face in it". Is that you being harsh, venting frustration, or a true reflection of what she's like? As others have said, this is a major red flag.

Without knowing more, I'd suggest a marriage counsellor before you start - to guide you on the right path. Get issues on the table to build a solid relationship for you and and potential kids. This is far more important than a prenup, even moreso based on your comments. Counsellors can 'prevent' problems, not just 'resolve after the fact'.

I appreciate that your parents look forward to grandchildren, not that I agree with the method, but I'm worried they'll never really get to see those grandchildren growing up with them…

Think about it this way, even being selfless and putting your life aside, it is YOUR responsibility to at least try to make sure your unborn children get a half decent life with a loving mom and dad, and taking your words literally at face value, I can't see how this is even remotely possible…

Definitely will get a lawyer to look through this. I'm still hoping she's going to change her mind. I know my parents would be scandalised - they're basically selling their property to help pay for the wedding - of which a large proportion of the guests are her friends

Have you considered pre-marriage counselling? Mainly as an opportunity to get all this on the table before your parents sell off their principal asset to fund a wedding (that you kind of seem cornered into). It may help address some of the difference in values you seem to have and at least have them aired and acknowledged.

From my perspective, unless you have HEAPS of money I don't think a pre-nup in neccessary. You're entering into a commitment and considering children, sharing what you have with each other should be at the very essence of that relationship. It's a lifelong union (in theory), not a competition. Unless one of you has ALOT to lose, splitting assets in the event of a relationship breakdown isn't that dire. If it is, and all hell with break loose because the perceived individual assets are so skewed and should stay that way, you probably should rethink marriage in the first place.

Your parents should not be selling their property to help pay for wedding!!!

Either you and your fiancé pay for the wedding together or have a far simpler wedding. The weddings I have went to are quite various. Personally, I can say from experience, is that the weddings that were the cheapest, scaled down ones are the ones that last. Even that one where the guests were asked not to provide gifts but pay for their own meals! Yes, that has last! Seriously it is not your parent's responsibility and it should never have been expected of them. Scale back now; if your fiancé cannot handle that reality then she is not prepared to handle the pressures of life.

Oh my, I'm finding it hard to believe this is for real. Who would want their parents to have to sell off their home to pay for a lavish wedding ceremony to a woman that he doesn't even really seem all that in to? So much wrong with this story, real or not.

That is completely not okay at all. I was married (now divorced) to a girl who had broke parents. Mine are broke too! There is no way they would sell their house to pay for some fancy wedding.

We had it in the backyard. I set up a microphone, mixer and amp with an ipod and got a celebrant for $500.

We bought some kiddy pools from the bargain shop down the road and a shitload of ice.

Bring a case or a plate. No presents.

To this day, they all say it was the best wedding they've been to. It went kinda insane toward the end (it was looooose!) but it cost us about $1,500 (celebrant and some booze and food for backups)and you know what, it was real.

I hope more people take a note from this kind of thing, as the 'wedding industry' is a giant load of crap. Getting into debt to have one night of absurdity where you are barely mindfully present is something I will never understand.

Pre-nup is a good idea. Just make sure it is fair to both people involved. It should spell out clearly what is to happen if the relationship splits. It is particularly good in relation to property, money and hard assets. It is not meant to railroad either party into doing anything that disadvantages them.
Pick an independent experienced-in-the-field Lawyer. And have a positive attitude about the process.

What I must recommend though is to get INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE separate from your fiancé.
Make sure that your lawyer double checks and approves any prenuptial agreement. They should be able to explain the document in plain English and answer all of your questions before you sign it.

Just remember, her lawyer is not your lawyer and is not acting in your interests.

What we were after was a financial agreement about who put how much into the purchasing of the place, how much we will be owed in the event of the dissolution of the relationship and how the property will be handled.

This is done through a family law lawyer and yes you will get reemed for the cost of getting one done up.
If it is a simple agreement (not lots of going back and forth) expect to pay somewhere in the vicinity of $1000, more complex ones I would imagine would scale up by work required. Half the time the lawyers palm it off to their assistants.

Is it a good idea, I believe so as you know what will happen if everything falls apart but make sure that you use a lawyer that works with these as there could be hidden clauses in there.
But the amount you pay for a simple document saying that you will give $X back to person A is a bit rich, I guess you don't meet a lot of poor lawyers.

You don't have to get reemed, when we bought our place we got our solicitor who was doing the property to draw up a contract

It was as long as what you typed above and basically stated that we went 50/50 in the deposit and payments. Provided you pay with any other means other then cash there will be a paper trail for payments. if we separate we can a) buy the other out b) sell and split it.

It only gets a little complicated if your ratio is other then 1:1 then you hope your lawyer can do basic maths

A pre-nup is an agreement between the 2 of you that what's yours is yours and what's his is his. It spells out what each of you are entitled to in the event of divorce. I personally don't agree with them as you are just asking for a divorce, but in cases of great wealth or other assets, they are a help to the divorce attorney.
You need to see an attorney and have one drawn up. Usually, legal documents are state-specific, so what works in one state may not work in another. Don't go searching for free online forms or samples, you are asking for trouble. See a professional and have them do it.
Would you take out your own tonsils or have a professional do it? Same thing. Some things are better left to the pros.

Run. You obviously have different values and priorities in life, it will always cause friction between you. Having lawyers involved in your relationship before you get married…yeah well, good luck with that.

As a female, I will never use tears to get my point across.I can't believe she does that, that's another red flag for you, please run! A promise doesn't mean shit if it means you have to sacrifice your happiness. And don't be afraid you won't find anyone, the odds are better for older single males anyway.

Recently, I just ended it with a guy who whose family was very wealthy but he was always rubbing it in my nose about my place. I live in an older place, whereas he lives in a new apartment and has a few apartments. He lacked humility, was only condescending in private about people who live >1.5km away from the city and loved to show off his new car. It wasn't even his apartment or car, it was his parents'. Needless to say, we had to breakup, I deserve much better than that. We were only together for a couple of months but was always talking about money and materialism. Another red flag. Run, before it's too late and you have kids. And the family courts in Australia will almost always seek judgment favourable to the woman once you have kids. You're at the losing end.

A lot of people who are born into wealth really have no clue. Materialism and the tendency to be judgmental about superficial things like people homes/cars is almost an inherited trait. Those type of people need to just marry each other, and let everyone else get on with it.

@sparkles: depends on how you were brought up. my friend in sg met her bf through work. he was just a casual temp. they dated for 1.5 yrs and then he broke the news to her. he was the son of a very rich family. they own hotels around the world. one of the richest in sg. even then, they refused help to buy their first apt together in joint name. she had no idea.

Not trying to be rude here but it sounds pretty obvious what the solution is: dump the b*tch and her materialistic family and GTFO of there because you deserve much better. From all your posts it sounds like you know this too but are too scared to admit it and keep getting guilt tripped by her.

You only have one life - don't mess it up and set yourself back a couple of years financially and emotionally by forcing yourself into an obvious wrong decision. May the power of OzBargain be with you.

I think people might be a bit harsh on the OP. I don't know whether he deserves criticism… people do unwise things sometimes, not because they're stupid or crazy, but often to try and appease other people (ie. good intentions).

But I agree in a sense that a psychologist wouldn't be a bad idea. Why? Cos the OP could very well benefit from some help with developing skills of assertiveness, to learn how to look after his own needs and values and live in accordance with those things instead of sacrificing important things for the wrong reasons (or wrong people).

Often, the kindest people are the ones that simply need to toughen up a bit to protect themselves from people that will happily take advantage of them. I imagine the OP could be one of those kind people.

sheeit man so a cry was all that was needed to persuade you to marry her, sounds like your being forced to marry her.. is this an arranged marriage type of situation? dude one word, "RUN".
LOL this whole post makes me think this is a script for a Hollywood movie where the groom runs out before the wedding vows lmao

Technically, what you're referring to is called a financial agreement. YOU WILL NEED TO BOTH OBTAIN SEPARATE, INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BEFOREHAND or this document will not be worth the paper it is written on. Meaning both of you will need to see separate family lawyers to get the document prepared. My take: she wants it, she can pay for it.

I went to a CPD seminar recently where the speaker discussed how many financial agreements have been overturned because the parties did not take the issue of independent financial advice seriously. It is a HUGE issue with these agreements.

In my experience (take it or leave it) relationships where the woman is older and richer tend to be less stable than relationships where the converse is true, meaning that that document is probably going to get a workout at some stage.

You've hit the nail on the head. It's all about her family. They are very different. A "get ahead by any means necessary" kind of family. Ultra-competitive. I'm still getting used to them and it's been two years