KarmicDisaster:Now that they know this is possible, there are probably other interesting Y chromosomes out there if we do more screening.

I sort of wonder what is done with all that data. Lots of companies offer DNA screening for various reasons (family tree, disease likelihoods, ancestral homelands, etc), but to my knowledge they don't really collaborate with each other. Perhaps there should be some national database, anonymous of course to address privacy issues, of all DNA that has been screened.

nekom:KarmicDisaster: Now that they know this is possible, there are probably other interesting Y chromosomes out there if we do more screening.

I sort of wonder what is done with all that data. Lots of companies offer DNA screening for various reasons (family tree, disease likelihoods, ancestral homelands, etc), but to my knowledge they don't really collaborate with each other. Perhaps there should be some national database, anonymous of course to address privacy issues, of all DNA that has been screened.

Like cancer, each individual lab wants to be The One that discovered that humans were actually the result of Neanderthals mating with visitors from Rygel-7, so they won't share their toys lest someone else beat them to it.

Stone Meadow:My cousins in Flathead, Montana will still insist that the Earth is only 6000 years old, and that the Y-chromosome was only planted there to temp humankind to Satan. You know, like fossils and shiat.

Considering how basically the entire fabric of the world, galaxy and universe don't fit with YEC, doesn't that inevitably lead to the conclusion that Satan created the entire universe including everything on Earth, all to fool us into not believing God did it - but wait a second, God didn't do any of it as we have just established, Satan did it all.

Being from Oklahoma my family history is very muddled and really only know the name of my great grand-father, but not his parents, the 1900 census said he didn't have any, so I could possibly be Native as we have always been told, but have no way of proving it. My mother's side I do know more about we came to mainland america with the Spanish in the 1600's and the conquestadors, but this familial DNA is cheap enough.

Might do the Y for $339 this year and then do the mother side next year.

FTA: One possibility is that Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population that has since gone extinct. If that's the case, then some time within the last 195,000 years, anatomically modern humans interbred with an ancient African human.

xria:Stone Meadow: My cousins in Flathead, Montana will still insist that the Earth is only 6000 years old, and that the Y-chromosome was only planted there to temp humankind to Satan. You know, like fossils and shiat.

Considering how basically the entire fabric of the world, galaxy and universe don't fit with YEC, doesn't that inevitably lead to the conclusion that Satan created the entire universe including everything on Earth, all to fool us into not believing God did it - but wait a second, God didn't do any of it as we have just established, Satan did it all.

They seem fairly content with their level of willful ignorance and denial, so who am I to tell them otherwise? Besides, it's a waste of time to try to convince people deep in cognitive dissonance that their most cherished fairy tales are nonsense. Their ability to simply ignore objective reality must be experienced to be appreciated.

jbtilley:FTA: One possibility is that Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population that has since gone extinct. If that's the case, then some time within the last 195,000 years, anatomically modern humans interbred with an ancient African human.

jbtilley:FTA: One possibility is that Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population that has since gone extinct. If that's the case, then some time within the last 195,000 years, anatomically modern humans interbred with an ancient African human.

Once you go black...

Hey, hey...the old memes are the best ones. ;^)

It does bring up the obvious question, tho. If Mr Perry's Y-chromosome is not modern human, what is it? It's not Neanderthal or TFA would have mentioned it. I wonder if it might have been H. erectus? After all they lived in SE Asia until about 20kya, so living in Africa until 340kya doesn't seem much of a stretch. Moreover, I have never heard of anyone isolating erectus chromosomes, so maybe this is one. Anyone know if the genome of the Hobbits has been worked out? Is there a tie-in?

Stone Meadow:If Mr Perry's Y-chromosome is not modern human, what is it?

It is "modern human." It's just a flavor they'd never seen before, which means that the most recent common ancestor can't be as recent as they thought. He wouldn't be genetically closer to any ancestor species of Homo than anyone else alive today.

A hundred years from now, the MRCA might be some dude living today, if enough shiat hits the fan in the right way. That doesn't mean that people born in 1800 and people born in 2100 won't be the same species. (Or, the present MRCA might hold that title for hundreds more millennia.)

semiotix:Stone Meadow: If Mr Perry's Y-chromosome is not modern human, what is it?

It is "modern human." It's just a flavor they'd never seen before, which means that the most recent common ancestor can't be as recent as they thought. He wouldn't be genetically closer to any ancestor species of Homo than anyone else alive today.

A hundred years from now, the MRCA might be some dude living today, if enough shiat hits the fan in the right way. That doesn't mean that people born in 1800 and people born in 2100 won't be the same species. (Or, the present MRCA might hold that title for hundreds more millennia.)

That's not what the article implies, "His team's research revealed something extraordinary: Perry did not descend from the genetic Adam. In fact, his Y chromosome was so distinct that his male lineage probably separated from all others about 338,000 years ago." Moreover, TFA goes on to state, "What are the implications? One possibility is that Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population that has since gone extinct."

That's the part my question referred to. If granddad wasn't modern human, what was he? We know he wasn't Neanderthal (no records of them getting very far into Africa, if at all), nor Denisovan (even further away).

xria:Stone Meadow: My cousins in Flathead, Montana will still insist that the Earth is only 6000 years old, and that the Y-chromosome was only planted there to temp humankind to Satan. You know, like fossils and shiat.

Considering how basically the entire fabric of the world, galaxy and universe don't fit with YEC, doesn't that inevitably lead to the conclusion that Satan created the entire universe including everything on Earth, all to fool us into not believing God did it - but wait a second, God didn't do any of it as we have just established, Satan did it all.

The lord god is the grand creater of all, he brought the light and the darkness, the heavens and the earth, he is the Creator of good, and the creator of evil. He is the Lord God everlasting.

So... its really God himself farking with everyone. Dude has a great sense of humor actually.

Cerebral Knievel:The lord god is the grand creater of all, he brought the light and the darkness, the heavens and the earth, he is the Creator of good, and the creator of evil. He is the Lord God everlasting.

So... its really God himself farking with everyone. Dude has a great sense of humor actually.

Some years ago I spent some time reading and thinking about the origins of evil in the early Jewish writings, and was struck by the parallels with Greek mythology...Yahweh on high and casting out Lucifer, his trusted 2nd in command. (Think Zeus throwing Hephaistos out of heaven...). The wars in heaven. The demands to his minions on Earth that we "hold no other Gods before him" (if ever there was an implied admission that there ARE other Gods that has to be it!)

Stone Meadow:Cerebral Knievel: The lord god is the grand creater of all, he brought the light and the darkness, the heavens and the earth, he is the Creator of good, and the creator of evil. He is the Lord God everlasting.

So... its really God himself farking with everyone. Dude has a great sense of humor actually.

Some years ago I spent some time reading and thinking about the origins of evil in the early Jewish writings, and was struck by the parallels with Greek mythology...Yahweh on high and casting out Lucifer, his trusted 2nd in command. (Think Zeus throwing Hephaistos out of heaven...). The wars in heaven. The demands to his minions on Earth that we "hold no other Gods before him" (if ever there was an implied admission that there ARE other Gods that has to be it!)

So yeah, He be trollin'.

Yep, but try telling that to the devout, they look at you like you just curb stomped a puppy.

But be careful, critical thinking like that could turn you into an atheist and condemn you to eternal damnation.

But of course, the "hold no other god before me" thing is part of that grand speech that I paraphrased. And it is not so much that there are OTHER gods, its that the people who have made up other gods are wrong.

Lucfer, the great satan hisself (with his bifurcitad tail and hayfork) was more of a guy that questioned god and called him out on his bullshiat. In that role, he's more of a court jester than a purveyor of darkness and evil.

Once again.. have this conversation with a one of the devout.

After years of eststrangment from my first exwife, she found me, to apologize for all the bullshiat that was our four month marriage. She had given up drugs, booze and being bipolar and had replaced it all with the Lord.Her reasons for our whacked out relationship and very brief marriage was that Satan had had a hold of her and was the reason for her self destructive behavior towards herself and those that loved her and tried to help her.

I asked her point blank what made her so special that Satan would take such a personal interest in her when the guy is not hurting for willing recruits.

Stone Meadow:That's not what the article implies, "His team's research revealed something extraordinary: Perry did not descend from the genetic Adam. In fact, his Y chromosome was so distinct that his male lineage probably separated from all others about 338,000 years ago." Moreover, TFA goes on to state, "What are the implications? One possibility is that Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population that has since gone extinct."

That's the part my question referred to. If granddad wasn't modern human, what was he? We know he wasn't Neanderthal (no records of them getting very far into Africa, if at all), nor Denisovan (even further away).

It's a fair question, but it starts to get into muddy waters. I suspect they are being a bit loose with the word "archaic", which is confusing. I think they mean that his Y chromosome comes from a distinctive human population -- but still our species -- that has otherwise gone extinct (or whose Y chromosome is so rare that it hasn't previously shown up in genetic studies).

I don't think they are suggesting that his (homo sapiens) mother interbred with a different species of the homo genus that had clung on that late in Africa, before dying out not long after. But it's hard to tell exactly from the way the article is written. It is possible, though, since homo heidelbergensis and homo erectus were both still around that late (although we don't necessarily have evidence for them in that part of Africa), and it's quite possible that there were other branches of homo still extant that we haven't found yet.

So distinctive homo sapiens population, homo sapiens subspecies, or other unidentified concurrent homo species are all possible at this time.

At this point, however, the species distinction becomes less useful. Some would argue, including Farker FloydA if memory serves, that if humans and these other putative members of homo could interbreed then they are by definition the same species (and they would correspondingly place neanderthals in a subspecies of homo sapiens rather than a separate species of the homo genus, if the evidence that we interbred holds up). My own view is that where you draw the species distinction becomes largely a matter of taste at that point.

FWIW, my expectation is that as we learn about our ancestry, we're going to find that archaic human species did not necessarily branch and then diverge until all but one branch went extinct. Rather, I suspect that we're going to find that different species/subspecies cross-bred back into each other. (There's already one intriguing candidate where two research teams each claim that the respective fossils they have found have more archaic features than the other, while pointing to other more modern features in the other, thus proving that both of them are the oldest known example of the type...).

xria:Stone Meadow: My cousins in Flathead, Montana will still insist that the Earth is only 6000 years old, and that the Y-chromosome was only planted there to temp humankind to Satan. You know, like fossils and shiat.

Considering how basically the entire fabric of the world, galaxy and universe don't fit with YEC, doesn't that inevitably lead to the conclusion that Satan created the entire universe including everything on Earth, all to fool us into not believing God did it - but wait a second, God didn't do any of it as we have just established, Satan did it all.

Funnily enough, this is not too far away from what Manichaeans actually believe,

czetie:It's a fair question, but it starts to get into muddy waters. I suspect they are being a bit loose with the word "archaic", which is confusing. I think they mean that his Y chromosome comes from a distinctive human population -- but still our species -- that has otherwise gone extinct (or whose Y chromosome is so rare that it hasn't previously shown up in genetic studies).

Maybe, but their choice of words is pretty clear..."Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population". We can speculate, but there you have it. If they had meant that they think we need to push back modern human history another 150,000 years, they would have said so, but they didn't.

At this point, however, the species distinction becomes less useful. Some would argue, including Farker FloydA if memory serves, that if humans and these other putative members of homo could interbreed then they are by definition the same species (and they would correspondingly place neanderthals in a subspecies of homo sapiens rather than a separate species of the homo genus, if the evidence that we interbred holds up). My own view is that where you draw the species distinction becomes largely a matter of taste at that point.

They can make that argument if they wish, but that doesn't make it so. There are many, MANY animals and plants that CAN interbreed, but which normally don't and so are rightfully considered different species. Wolves and coyotes come to mind, but other examples abound.

Stone Meadow:They can make that argument if they wish, but that doesn't make it so. There are many, MANY animals and plants that CAN interbreed, but which normally don't and so are rightfully considered different species. Wolves and coyotes come to mind, but other examples abound.

Bonzo_1116:Stone Meadow: They can make that argument if they wish, but that doesn't make it so. There are many, MANY animals and plants that CAN interbreed, but which normally don't and so are rightfully considered different species. Wolves and coyotes come to mind, but other examples abound.

Dr Dreidel:nekom: KarmicDisaster: Now that they know this is possible, there are probably other interesting Y chromosomes out there if we do more screening.

I sort of wonder what is done with all that data. Lots of companies offer DNA screening for various reasons (family tree, disease likelihoods, ancestral homelands, etc), but to my knowledge they don't really collaborate with each other. Perhaps there should be some national database, anonymous of course to address privacy issues, of all DNA that has been screened.

Like cancer, each individual lab wants to be The One that discovered that humans were actually the result of Neanderthals mating with visitors from Rygel-7, so they won't share their toys lest someone else beat them to it.

// because research is all about the credit for it, right?

Actually, if they really wanna be legends, they'll finally break the myth that has been pervading evolution since Lamarck: That apes and humans are not monkeys.

/To say that humans are not and never were monkeys is as wrong as to say that humans are not and never were mammals.

Stone Meadow:Maybe, but their choice of words is pretty clear..."Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population". We can speculate, but there you have it. If they had meant that they think we need to push back modern human history another 150,000 years, they would have said so, but they didn't.

Bear in mind that this is a journalist's report, not the actual words. To be honest, I don't know how to parse "archaic human population" without disregarding one of the words.

Like they'd travel 800 light years just for the hairiest pussy in the universe. I mean some guys like that, but 800 light years? That's over a year's travel even at Warp 5. Aaaaand I need to get off the internet now.

czetie:Stone Meadow: Maybe, but their choice of words is pretty clear..."Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population". We can speculate, but there you have it. If they had meant that they think we need to push back modern human history another 150,000 years, they would have said so, but they didn't.

Bear in mind that this is a journalist's report, not the actual words. To be honest, I don't know how to parse "archaic human population" without disregarding one of the words.

Point taken, as I don't know exactly what that phrase means, either. That said, what it DOESN'T mean is "we have to push back modern humans another 150,000 years". If it did, they'd have said that. I tried clicking through to the actual article, but am unwilling to spend $31 to read it, so I guess we'll have to wait until the details come out. Thanks for the great conversation... :)

Stone Meadow:czetie: Stone Meadow: Maybe, but their choice of words is pretty clear..."Perry's Y chromosome may have been inherited from an archaic human population". We can speculate, but there you have it. If they had meant that they think we need to push back modern human history another 150,000 years, they would have said so, but they didn't.

Bear in mind that this is a journalist's report, not the actual words. To be honest, I don't know how to parse "archaic human population" without disregarding one of the words.

Point taken, as I don't know exactly what that phrase means, either. That said, what it DOESN'T mean is "we have to push back modern humans another 150,000 years". If it did, they'd have said that. I tried clicking through to the actual article, but am unwilling to spend $31 to read it, so I guess we'll have to wait until the details come out. Thanks for the great conversation... :)