Quoting a report from the Second International Naval Show (IMDS-2005) in St. Petersburg.

Moreover, Kommersant found out that Rosoboronexport is negotiating with Iran about repair and modernization of Iranian submarines. Iran has three submarines of Project 877EKM that were supplied by Russia in 1992 (Russian name of the sub B-219, Iranian901 Tareq), in June 1993 (B-224, 902 Noor) and in November 1996 (B-175, 903 Yunes). It was expected that all the major components that already exceeded their life expectancy will be replaced. Also, the new anti-ship missile complex Club-S with the target distance of 200 km will be installed on these subs. The refurbishing of each sub would be done under the contract which costs anywhere from $80 to $90 million. Originally it was expected that the refurbishing will be done in Zvezdochka Co (Severo-Dvinsk) but Admiralty Shipyards are also fighting for the contract.

I can. Once a commie always a Commie. Seriesly though Putin obviously thinks he can play the US off against it's various enemies, sooner or later he'll have to pay the piper tho. Think China in that respect.

That Putin is a dirty underhanded Soviet. He's playing the whole ME against us. Chechnia is just a show. It could all backfire against him, Or he could use the ME to sweep right through Europe, the lifelong Soviet dream. A biblical revelation comes to mind, which is a scary thought.

On Wednesday, October 25, the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations will begin hearings to probe recent press reports that Vice President Al Gore and then Russian Prime Minister Victor Chernomyrdin made a secret agreement five years ago in which the Vice President promised that the Clinton Administration would not enforce a U.S. law requiring sanctions for Russian weapons sales to Iran.

The law referenced above is the 1992 Iran-Iraq Non-Proliferation Act (P.L. 102-484), sponsored by then Senator Al Gore, along with Senator John McCain. This law requires the President to impose sanctions on countries that sell advanced weaponry or assist in nuclear weapons programs in countries sponsoring terrorism. Russian cooperation with Iran's nuclear program was a major concern behind enactment of that legislation.

Yep, but in due time. Those subs and those missles are crap. 200km range....pfffftt!

They will be nada to our subs and be taken out quickly. I guess it's a bad sign of things to come, perhaps, but this is nuttin' (regional threat only, and well within region's defenses).

This is so minimal, I occurs to me that maybe Russia told us, or that we don't even care at this point, except to keep track.

Even nuked up, the subs are still only a regional threat, and somehow I think their "threat" is more to Iran than anyone else. (In that, at some point, we're going to step on Iran's nasty atomic throat.)

The Club system is a family of anti-ship, anti-submarine and land attack missiles with variants for delivery from surface ships and submarines. The version intended for the Russian Navy is reportedly designated Kalibr. Designed by OKB Novator in Yekaterinburg, the Club system was publicly displayed at the Ural Expo-2000. The Club system design is based on technology from Novator's earlier 3M10/RK-55 Granat [NATO designation SS-N-21 'Sampson'] cruise missile and RPK-2 Vyuga [NATO designation SS-N-15] ASW missile. The direct predecessor of the 3M54E cruise missile (the anti-ship component of the Club system), the 3M51 Alfa, was first displayed in 1993 at arms conventions in Abu-Dhabi and Zhukovskiy (MAKS-93).

As of April 2002 India was the only customer of the Club system, which is being installed on the Indian Navy's Russian-built frigates and submarines. China and Iran have also expressed interest in purchasing the Club system as part of potential upgrade programs for their Russian-built submarines.

The 3M54E is an anti-ship cruise missile consisting of a launch stage, a winged low-flying subsonic cruise stage, and a terminal low-flying supersonic payload stage with a range of 20km. It can be fired from surface ship vertical launch tubes or 533mm submarine torpedo tubes. It has a 200kg payload with a range of 220km. The 3M54E1 is a smaller version that does not have the third supersonic stage, but it has a longer range (300km) and a heavier payload (400kg).

These subs & missiles are anything but crap.The subs are very quiet diesel electrics,rather well suited for operations in the Straits of Hormuz & Arabian Sea.

How many countries operate sub-launched anti-ship missiles with a range of 200-300kms???Only a handful & these Klub missiles reportedly will have a supersonic terminal stage,which will make their effect on impact far more deadly.

Precisely why we've tightened the noose around Vladimir, i.e. with Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Albania, and Hungary joining NATO. Also, we have US forces stationed in Uzbekistan, Krygastan (spelling), Tajikistan, and Georgia. How do you like that Vladimir, you Bolshevik!

24
posted on 07/06/2005 4:33:21 AM PDT
by moose2004
(You Can Run But You Can't Hide!)

Hmm,well some (pretty influential) folks in NATO like Germany,Spain & Italy seem to be tilting towards the Russian!!!Russia operates an airbase in kyrgyzstan( a few miles from the American installation) & has very very strong security ties with Tajikistan(including a small airbase) & Uzbekistan.Anyone will tell you that the US was able to secure facilities in the region for the Afghan war because the Russians didn't explicitly mind it & also because they themselves had great influence there.

This has nothing to do with communism or capitalism and everything to do with (perceived) national interest. Russia thinks that it will be more powerful in a world where the United States is weaker. Plenty of other countries believe the same thing. That's nationalism, not ideology, and while I don't necessarily agree with it, the solution isn't namecalling.

31
posted on 07/06/2005 6:04:44 AM PDT
by Alter Kaker
(Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)

Or he could use the ME to sweep right through Europe, the lifelong Soviet dream.

Bwahahahaha. I'm going to step out on a limb and guess that... you've never been to Russia. Russia invading Europe in 2005? Warn me if they form an alliance with Canada, Monaco and Papua New Guinea, because then we'll really be in trouble.

32
posted on 07/06/2005 6:10:39 AM PDT
by Alter Kaker
(Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)

I guess 'pootie boy' has yet to make the connection between terrorist supporting Iran and Chechen (?) terrorist who murder school children. Eventually he will make the connection when a dirty bomb goes off in some Russian city.

Germany has reached out to the Russians during Schroeder's tenure, and I suspect so under pressure from the French, but that will stop in September with the election of Angela Merkel as Chancellor of Germany. She is the leader of the Christian Democrats (who will form the next governing coalition), and she has promised to rekindle relations with Washington and cool things a bit with Moscow. Also, I don't understand your comment about Italy, Berlusconi sent troops to Iraq, and he is a great friend of the US. Spain, yes, you're correct here, Zapatoro has cooled things with Washington in favor of Russia, France, Germany, and Brussels. As to the bases in Central Asia, of course the Russians have stronger influence there, it's their backyard. But it must be troubling to Putin that America has combat forces currently stationed in countries that border Russia, and that all the former members of the Warsaw Pact, with the obvious exception of the defunct Soviet Union, are now members of NATO.

35
posted on 07/06/2005 6:19:34 AM PDT
by moose2004
(You Can Run But You Can't Hide!)

I always wondered about submarine warfare. Although the Germans did wolf packs in WW2, the did not work in tandem with each other.

The way to nail a surface ship for a quick sink would be to fire from two points at once. The structural stress to the ship from getting hit both port and starboard within a few seconds of each other should crack the hull wide open. No time to radio out.

As for under sea, you are correct. Lay on the bottom and wait.

38
posted on 07/06/2005 7:29:24 AM PDT
by WakeUpAndVote
(Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy since 1992!)

Ditto. This is much to do about nothing. Putin is just taking their money --suckers-- selling 3rd rate goods. The subs are loud, equipment is crappy, and the Iranian Navy aren't exactly known for their seafaring skills.

Actually,the cooperation I look at is more than political.Italian,French,German & even British companies are trying to sign up with Russian weapons manufacturers to jointly develop or market goods.Both Italy & Russia pretty much developed an advanced jet trainer(Yak-130) together,but broke off only due to technical considerations,while the BAE & AMS of Britain are promoting joint upgrades of several Russian weapons.Then there is the issue of Russia becoming an attractive investment destination & fast growing for companies from these countries.So even if Germany or Spain go conservative again,there isn't a guarantee that they will turn their backs to Moscow-their interests seem to demand that.

I am no expert but... Some subs are very quiet almost silent. However no sub is quiet when not properly maintained. I am sure the hulls have to have proper maintenance to remain almost silent and I some how feel these subs are probably not getting the best maintenance

That's why the fact that these subs are getting an overhaul should be worrying.Most folks are just focussing on the facts that new missiles will be fitted,which is serious enough.But whenever subs have to be drydocked,there is always the chance of upgrading it's sonars,EW & countermeasures systems & also the possibility of installing new batteries.Iran reportedly had problems with the Kilo's batteries when they entered service.Moreover,a new coating of anechoic tiles may be added for absorbing sonar pings.

I have to agree that the USN probably has got the prop signatures of these subs long ago.But one also has to understand that D/E subs are usually quieter than N-boats,though their low endurance negates that.One can just look at examples of Dutch & Norwegian subs "sinking" American LA class boats in exercises & most of those boats have pretty much the same characteristics as the Kilo.

Slightly off topic - could Merkel be Germay's version of Thatcher? It would be ood to see the tax cuts and government reductions that Kohl proposed passed. What Kohl proposed had to have been inspired by Reagan.

Don't forget how heavily America is invested in Russia's economy, more so than the other countries you mentioned, Yet we, like France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and Britain, adhere to Reagan's way of dealing with the Russians, "trust but verify."

50
posted on 07/06/2005 8:31:27 AM PDT
by moose2004
(You Can Run But You Can't Hide!)

Disclaimer:
Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual
posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its
management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the
exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.