Sams_Dog wrote:Wow, if not for the black and gold on this site I would be SURE that this was a NY Rangers discussion board. "GET THAT VETERAN! GET THIS VETERAN! TRADE THE YOUNG GUYS!! WHO CARES??!! THEY CAN'T PLAY!! THE FUTURE IS NOW!!!" Roberts is 40 years old guys. He will be doing card shows and playing golf when the Penguins are the favorite to win the Cup in two of three years. A second round pick, sure. One of our top (if not THE TOP) defensive prospect? NO F'N WAY!

Guerin is 36 and is one year removed from scoring 13 GOALS IN 70 GAMES. I am not interested in seeing us give up a good young player and a #1 pick for him ever. And either of these guys could (and probably will) walk after this season. I hope these rumors are false. My opinion of Shero would drop considerably if they aren't.

The Penguins are not going to win the Cup this year and making deals as if they are would be DUMB. In two years we will be kicking ourselves that we let a guy like Welch go fo a 40 year old rent-a-player.

The Penguins could very much use PLAYOFF REVENUE. For some reason, a lot of people think this habitual money-losing franchise is suddenly very solvent. It's not! I know attendance is up but the Pens are still going to finish in the red without some home playoff games.

When it comes time for next year and maybe upgrading the roster, it would be nice to have finished on the + side bottom-line for one of the few times in the last 2 decades plus.

Welch is expendable. The Pens have that style of d-man already in the NHL and also in the AHL for that matter. 40 year old rental players can help you have a good playoff run, especially if they bring something to the lineup that is lacking previously.

I'm all for bringing guys like Roberts and Guerin on board, even if they both turn out to be rentals. It's a second season once the playoffs start and either/both bring some of the power forward aspects to the Pens that is missing. If it means giving up a low #1 pick, Ryan Malone and even Wlech, sounds great to me. 3rd liners like Malone aren't difficult to replace and low #1 draft picks don't mean a lot on a team that is having a major youth movement already.

Paulie_WalnutzII wrote:If the deadline is 9PM and he hasn't said anything yet, I'm starting to think this won't happen. that way, he won't look like too much of a bad guy. He didn't not waive his NTC. Just didn't do it in time.

I'd give him until 9PM, then move on.

These trades, or near trades, are starting to resemble a search for a new owner.

I don't think anyone knows what Shero's deadline is. I've read 9pm, 10pm, and "Roberts told Shero he was going to sleep on it and get back to him in the morning."

I heard that Shero and Malkin will be visiting Roberts tonight and force him to waive his NTC at 3:00am.

Then Roberts is going to flee once he gets to Pittsburgh and show up in Toronto or Ottowa in 2 weeks

At first, Roberts will seek refuge in Derek Bell's boat. Then show up 2 weeks later in Toronto.

Sams_Dog wrote:Guerin is 36 and is one year removed from scoring 13 GOALS IN 70 GAMES. I am not interested in seeing us give up a good young player and a #1 pick for him ever.

Guerin admitted that he was too invloved in the NHL talks during the previous off-season and was not able (or willing) to be diligent about training properly. When the league resumed, he suffered.

Say what you want about that claim, but he rededicated himself by all accounts this off-season and the results seem to add some credence to his claims about last season.

Anyway, at 36, he is not too old. The bigger concern is the UFA status after this season, but for this price I would be okay with it. He is a constant threat in St. Louis this season.

Here's the thing: Let's say you believe the big three rumors right now-- Welch for Roberts, Malone and a #1 for Guerin, and a pick for Miller. Those guys do two things: First, they make the Pens a better team for a playoff run and better suited for the rigors of playoff hockey. Second, they specifically address the Pens horrible matchup issues with TB and Ottawa. Roberts gives both of these teams fits. I suspect Guerin would as well. And, Miller, replacing one of Scudichar at even strength and working on the PK, would help.

These moves would add a combined 1.3M prorated for the balance of the year, which is less than the revenue the Pens would derive from 1 home playoff game.

And, while giving up a #1 hurts, does moving Malone and Welch really constitute "mortgaging the future". If anything, the move helps, because it relieves the Pens of their financial commitment to Malone for next year and gives the Pens that money for the offseason to sign a winger for Sid. Between Malone's money and what the Pens pay Ekman (a shade under 3M total), they could find a pretty good guy if one of the rentals doesn't sign a deal.

Sams_Dog wrote:Guerin is 36 and is one year removed from scoring 13 GOALS IN 70 GAMES. I am not interested in seeing us give up a good young player and a #1 pick for him ever.

Guerin admitted that he was too invloved in the NHL talks during the previous off-season and was not able (or willing) to be diligent about training properly. When the league resumed, he suffered.

Say what you want about that claim, but he rededicated himself by all accounts this off-season and the results seem to add some credence to his claims about last season.

Anyway, at 36, he is not too old. The bigger concern is the UFA status after this season, but for this price I would be okay with it. He is a constant threat in St. Louis this season.

Here's the thing: Let's say you believe the big three rumors right now-- Welch for Roberts, Malone and a #1 for Guerin, and a pick for Miller. Those guys do two things: First, they make the Pens a better team for a playoff run and better suited for the rigors of playoff hockey. Second, they specifically address the Pens horrible matchup issues with TB and Ottawa. Roberts gives both of these teams fits. I suspect Guerin would as well. And, Miller, replacing one of Scudichar at even strength and working on the PK, would help.

These moves would add a combined 1.3M prorated for the balance of the year, which is less than the revenue the Pens would derive from 1 home playoff game.

And, while giving up a #1 hurts, does moving Malone and Welch really constitute "mortgaging the future". If anything, the move helps, because it relieves the Pens of their financial commitment to Malone for next year and gives the Pens that money for the offseason to sign a winger for Sid. Between Malone's money and what the Pens pay Ekman (a shade under 3M total), they could find a pretty good guy if one of the rentals doesn't sign a deal.

kirk, Great post! I think Malone and Roberts is a wash with a slight upgrade with roberts. Guerin is an improvement over probably Oullete on Staalkin. Miller or Sopel will be a significant upgrade over one of our bottom 2 d-men. The one thing I wouldn't mind is making the pick for Guerin be conditional based on him re-signing

But here's something to consider, we would be trading away 2 roster spots for next season and getting nothing in return. This means these spots will have to be filled by expensive UFA's (the more UFA's to sign the lower quality they will be), or rushing prospects (Letang, Filewich) into the lineup.

I agree, Malone and Welch are not the future. I think Welch is going to be a good defensemen but the fact that he has been given 3 or 4 chances to crack a defense that has no good defensemen in their own end and is still in WBS is not good.

Malone should have 20 goals by now. And I understand he's been hurt. In a full season he should be on pace for 40+ and right now he's on pace for about 23. Not good enough.

Sams_Dog wrote:Guerin is 36 and is one year removed from scoring 13 GOALS IN 70 GAMES. I am not interested in seeing us give up a good young player and a #1 pick for him ever.

Guerin admitted that he was too invloved in the NHL talks during the previous off-season and was not able (or willing) to be diligent about training properly. When the league resumed, he suffered.

Say what you want about that claim, but he rededicated himself by all accounts this off-season and the results seem to add some credence to his claims about last season.

Anyway, at 36, he is not too old. The bigger concern is the UFA status after this season, but for this price I would be okay with it. He is a constant threat in St. Louis this season.

Here's the thing: Let's say you believe the big three rumors right now-- Welch for Roberts, Malone and a #1 for Guerin, and a pick for Miller. Those guys do two things: First, they make the Pens a better team for a playoff run and better suited for the rigors of playoff hockey. Second, they specifically address the Pens horrible matchup issues with TB and Ottawa. Roberts gives both of these teams fits. I suspect Guerin would as well. And, Miller, replacing one of Scudichar at even strength and working on the PK, would help.

These moves would add a combined 1.3M prorated for the balance of the year, which is less than the revenue the Pens would derive from 1 home playoff game.

And, while giving up a #1 hurts, does moving Malone and Welch really constitute "mortgaging the future". If anything, the move helps, because it relieves the Pens of their financial commitment to Malone for next year and gives the Pens that money for the offseason to sign a winger for Sid. Between Malone's money and what the Pens pay Ekman (a shade under 3M total), they could find a pretty good guy if one of the rentals doesn't sign a deal.

pcm wrote:Kirk, the combined deals would be a big improvement for this season.

But here's something to consider, we would be trading away 2 roster spots for next season and getting nothing in return. This means these spots will have to be filled by expensive UFA's (the more UFA's to sign the lower quality they will be), or rushing prospects (Letang, Filewich) into the lineup.

I don't think Filewich will be "rushed" if he is on the team next year. I think he is ready and should get his shot. Not a top 6 guy but makes trading Malone a lot easier b/c he can replace him. D-Man was going to be addressed in the offseason anyways so I really don't think we lose all that much at all.

DelPen wrote:I agree, Malone and Welch are not the future. I think Welch is going to be a good defensemen but the fact that he has been given 3 or 4 chances to crack a defense that has no good defensemen in their own end and is still in WBS is not good.

Malone should have 20 goals by now. And I understand he's been hurt. In a full season he should be on pace for 40+ and right now he's on pace for about 23. Not good enough.

27 NHL games for Welch isn't enough for me. Not yet.

I'm beginning to think Malone is just miscast as a 1st line player. If he is going to go though, I'd rather move him over the summer (maybe on draft day) to get something that can help the team for more than a couple of months.

pcm wrote:Kirk, the combined deals would be a big improvement for this season.

But here's something to consider, we would be trading away 2 roster spots for next season and getting nothing in return. This means these spots will have to be filled by expensive UFA's (the more UFA's to sign the lower quality they will be), or rushing prospects (Letang, Filewich) into the lineup.

I don't think Filewich will be "rushed" if he is on the team next year. I think he is ready and should get his shot. Not a top 6 guy but makes trading Malone a lot easier b/c he can replace him. D-Man was going to be addressed in the offseason anyways so I really don't think we lose all that much at all.

And a winger was going to addressed too. It's a matter of resigning UFA's we trade for or different guys.

DelPen wrote:I agree, Malone and Welch are not the future. I think Welch is going to be a good defensemen but the fact that he has been given 3 or 4 chances to crack a defense that has no good defensemen in their own end and is still in WBS is not good.

Malone should have 20 goals by now. And I understand he's been hurt. In a full season he should be on pace for 40+ and right now he's on pace for about 23. Not good enough.

Agree that Malone isn't the future, but disagree with Welch. The guy hasn't really been given much of a chance. He certainly is better than two of the duds up right now. This board is split whether the organization has cooled on him. Trading Welch for a 40-year old, who really doesn't want to be in Pittsburgh (would rather be in Toronto or Ottawa) and if it happens, certainly won't be in Pittsburgh next year is a bit foolish to me and would certainly prove the Pens cooled on him. At least, if you think he is going to be good (which I agree) package him with a pick or someone else and get something tangible that will help for more than 2 months. JMO. I'm not a fan of this deal at all and hope Roberts says no.

pcm wrote:Kirk, the combined deals would be a big improvement for this season.

But here's something to consider, we would be trading away 2 roster spots for next season and getting nothing in return. This means these spots will have to be filled by expensive UFA's (the more UFA's to sign the lower quality they will be), or rushing prospects (Letang, Filewich) into the lineup.

Yeah but it is quite possible that those roster players were going to be replaced anyways. You could see from a mile away that they have been real happy with Malone. Welch "could've" been a roster player but he couldn't beat out Alain Nasrredine.

Good scoring wingers are going to cost money. If you don't want to spend money on them then you either take a chance with a minor leaguer or you settle for the Ryan Malone's. Same with defense. If you want a good defenseman they aren't cheap. You either pay the price or you settle for Scuderi and Melichar and hope that the minor leaguers develop on schedule.

Either way, you're not giving up a lot of future pieces may it be picks or good prospects or good roster players to sign UFA's.

pcm wrote:Kirk, the combined deals would be a big improvement for this season.

But here's something to consider, we would be trading away 2 roster spots for next season and getting nothing in return. This means these spots will have to be filled by expensive UFA's (the more UFA's to sign the lower quality they will be), or rushing prospects (Letang, Filewich) into the lineup.

But, here's the thing . . . Ouellet would still be on the roster. And, regardless, you'd want to upgrade two of the wings, be it now or in the offseason. Why not do it now? As for the defense, the Pens have the top two pairs under contract. Sign a vet for the third pairing, ideally to mentor Letang. You have Gologoski who may come to camp. And, you resign Scuderi and Nasserdine on the cheap in case there's a problem. There are a lot of guys available this offseason. I don't see filling the holes as a big deal.

DelPen wrote:I agree, Malone and Welch are not the future. I think Welch is going to be a good defensemen but the fact that he has been given 3 or 4 chances to crack a defense that has no good defensemen in their own end and is still in WBS is not good.

Malone should have 20 goals by now. And I understand he's been hurt. In a full season he should be on pace for 40+ and right now he's on pace for about 23. Not good enough.

Agree that Malone isn't the future, but disagree with Welch. The guy hasn't really been given much of a chance. He certainly is better than two of the duds up right now. This board is split whether the organization has cooled on him. Trading Welch for a 40-year old, who really doesn't want to be in Pittsburgh (would rather be in Toronto or Ottawa) and if it happens, certainly won't be in Pittsburgh next year is a bit foolish to me and would certainly prove the Pens cooled on him. At least, if you think he is going to be good (which I agree) package him with a pick or someone else and get something tangible that will help for more than 2 months. JMO. I'm not a fan of this deal at all and hope Roberts says no.

It's pretty obvious they've cooled on him. The expectation before the season was that he was going to be on the opening night roster but he was beat out by 19-year-old Kris Letang. After getting called up for ~20 games, he got sent down so that career minor leaguer Alain Nasreddine could get a chance. Now they've reportedly agreed to trade him for a 40-year-old rental. Clearly, they don't consider him part of the future.

I didn't like the idea of trading Welch for a rental, but I'll trust Shero on this. He gets the benefit of the doubt right now because nearly all of his moves have worked out nicely.

pcm wrote:Kirk, the combined deals would be a big improvement for this season.

But here's something to consider, we would be trading away 2 roster spots for next season and getting nothing in return. This means these spots will have to be filled by expensive UFA's (the more UFA's to sign the lower quality they will be), or rushing prospects (Letang, Filewich) into the lineup.

Yeah but it is quite possible that those roster players were going to be replaced anyways. You could see from a mile away that they have been real happy with Malone. Welch "could've" been a roster player but he couldn't beat out Alain Nasrredine.

Good scoring wingers are going to cost money. If you don't want to spend money on them then you either take a chance with a minor leaguer or you settle for the Ryan Malone's. Same with defense. If you want a good defenseman they aren't cheap. You either pay the price or you settle for Scuderi and Melichar and hope that the minor leaguers develop on schedule.

Either way, you're not giving up a lot of future pieces may it be picks or good prospects or good roster players to sign UFA's.

The other thing, Magnum, remains to determine what constitutes mortgaging the future. I see the most integral thing to the Pens future as being the maximization of that fiveyear period you're going to have with Sid, Malkin, and Staal (and Fleury) before the Pens face TB style choices (like they did with Khabibulin). Guys like Whitney and Letang are integral parts of that as well. Malone, Welch, and even a #1 in a weak draft year are peripheral to that future, assets to be sure but, if the Pens can be less of a long shot this season and the big 3 can gain invaluable playoff experience, expendable assets nonetheless.