Pretty sure Over the Hills was there as well, but the Ip man is usually right. Dancing Days was played on that tour as well,
but seemed to get phased out close to the "Garden Tapes". Still don't get why Page didn't leave the original NQ in; Many
consider this a all time live classic, even with some splicing and studio trickery. The thing is, Zep played so many amazing
versions of songs on boots with no trickery in 73', does it really matter that Page always stuck his hands in things that
basically blew away 95% of other bands out there ? Heartreaker, the original ommission, wasn't legendary but IMO
very good to excellent., again the odd ommisson, Page's soloing is pretty far up there.

Yeah, I've even read/heard that a lot of the album( Well, maybe not TFO) Jimmy had a harsh guitar tone for most of
the album. The solos in Achilles and HOFN, you can really hear a boosted midrange and a surely super boosted treble
EQ wise. In fact, unless you're talking about the 60''s and earlier recording tech, I've never heard anything in the Zep
days that has such creative and obviously artfully applied screeching treble than the ALS solo. I noticed this stuff even
before I was a musician. Page hadn't really used these extreme EQ sounds before Presence, and not after. PG and
ITTOD of course have their dissonant moments, but nothing like Presence. Some fans may have been turned off by
the rather harsh guitar sounds in many of the songs.

ITTOD sold like crazy in 79', so not so sure punk had pushed the band into a corner.. I think some of Presence Jimmy
may have gone over some fans' heads with all the bouncing and dancing guitar parts. I think the album may have appealed
more to musicians, as some of the elaborate arrangements were not really comparable to anything else out there.

What's interesting about Presence is at least where I live, It was the first Zep album to be discounted. Of course Coda
quickly was discounted as well. I think that live because Zep only played Achilles and NFBM, that may have limited
it's exposure.

Yeah, that opening riff is something in itself. I think the band could have come back to it, or play a variation of it later in
the song.. Maybe some don't like TFO because it is mainly a brooding song. SIBLY is slow blues too but there is much
more emotional variation in it or moods. TFO is basically I'm stuck here in this situation, I just have to deal with it, nowhere
to run or hide.. But that is my view on the music and lyrics, others opinions may differ. Overall great album, at the time
Jimmy really was gold standard as far as imaginative guitar wizards go.

I remember hearing the "full length" version of HHWCID on the radio before Coda. The full length version ends
with the various stringed instruments all colliding together, and all the sound being cut off entirely, no fade out at all.
However, for public release Jimmy probably thought that original ending was too abrupt and chaotic. Also all or
a lot of TRB had guitar overdubs , or at least some version had it.

My father hated 85% of rock but did like some songs which were classically influenced, like BIGLY. Believe it or not,
but in my area when TSRTS was playing in the midnight movie circuit, In the theaters, the review said that the movie
had much onstage lewd behavior and sex gyrations not suitable for teens, even preteens. My area is pretty liberal,
this seemed way overboard, ridiculous. My mother didn't like their presentation or music, but saw no reason to
ban it or anything. I think that much Blues simply uses different scales in matter foreign to Euro -classical players,
and that's one big reason why the two styles may clash considerably.

Ha Ha. I actually know some people whose description totally matches the scenario that lies been described. Who will
actually get murderously angry if their lack of job dilemma is mentioned. Oh, Oh,....politics and Zep forum, no good.

What a thread. As some mentioned, Squire himself actually was somewhat of a party animal. In fact I'm pretty sure
from what I read and saw online, Chris gained a not small amount of weight from drinking. Plus, no one read the
article where Chris talks about XYZ, how he and Jimmy took a lot of drugs at those sessions ?? It is true that Chris
never allowed any habits he had to compromise his playing. And Alan White(Yes drummer) said the XYZ project
wasn't a lark, it was a real attempt to forming a new band. Some of Jimmy's XYZ solos sound much more energetic
and interesting than the Firm. Not to be rude, but this thing with JPJ going to keys, getting another new member
to play bass, this must have been something that was overheard by a non-member (Grant too) in a pub or
something. Jimmy in particular, he wouldn't ever want every song to have keys. This is in the Hoskins book ?
What page ?

Jimmy being cheap, absolutely. Jimmy was probably cheap in the studio as well,probably taping over alternative arrangements . For a guitarist like Jimmy who is a guitar orchestrator, ,I found the companions really bare.
Anyway the lack of pro official live Zep is unfortunate. However, when Jimmy cleans up the live stuff(mainly HTWWW)
despite great performances, Jimmy IMO does so much sonic surgery that the end result is neither fish nor fowl.
TSRTS is not too bad, but that's also because for example on that tour, Jimmy at times played solos that were even
better than anything in the movie, so for all the awareness of the soundtrack being patched together, again Jimmy
played stuff much better than what's in the movie. In that case, it doesn't matter, there was amazing music going on
anyway.

Yeah, and much of what was commented showed how Jimmy was being expressionalistic and artichectural often in the
same song. Jimmy is a sound sculptor, not just a riff machine. There are Zep songs which are almost mathematical in
their structure, and songs which have a sort of amoeba like element. Like Achillies is pretty mathematical in its precision,
yet there are quite a few parts that have a fluid and bleeding quality as well. So many rock guitarists never get even close
to what Page was doing in the 70's and Presence. Jimmy was trying IMHO to evoke music which had such strong moods
or layers of symetries which went way beyond just riffs.

Those are great ideas, but Plant and Page have moved so far apart, just like the companions, Robert didn't do much
and just said he trusted Jimmy's instincts. Half true on trusting Jimmy, But I really think Robert didn't really want to
be around Jimmy anymore in the first place. No way I could now see some comprehensive career retrospective
with sincere good humor and reminiscing with the remaining 3 Zep's. For example I, It's been learned in the last
5-10 years that JPJ actually created a very substantial amount of Zep's material. Not something Jimmy wants to
acknowledge. About the computer "fixing" up uneven sound or harsh texture etc., Jimmy actually did do that
with HTWWW, and although it is ( the 2 nights) excellent playing and overall performance, Jimmy messed up.
Many fans including myself felt that Jimmy went way overboard tweaking whatever he deemed sloppy or a bit
compromised audio wise. The problem is that it is extremely obvious where his he's sticking his fingers in,
so parts of HTWWW end up sounding like the most bizarre (albeit clear) boot you've ever heard. That's why
, great, more official live stuff, someone must put the brakes on Jimmy's constant meddling.

I understand totally the idea that particularly studio wise there is nothing left. I kid you not, but this was entirely the case
believed and stated by band members when CODA came out. Somebody posted that Zep most of the time in the studio
wanted to bang out songs quickly and be as spontaneous as possible. Definetly to a certain extent, but Jimmy's
guitar orchestrations are something which must be poured over, to see which overdubs work best for a certain part
or song. Jimmy does not have JPJ''s arranging or orchestrating skills..Of course Jimmy is likely hearing certain possibilities of layering the guitar parts. But in Jimmy's case, there probably are quite a few times when he has to lay
these ideas down on tape, so there has to be at least some songs which have quite different or at least noticeably
different guitar parts. Jimmy was the master guitar orchestrator of the 70's. I find it incredible to believe that Jimmy
just played over other guitar possibilities, thus erasing what he played before. Or that Jimmy just discarded different
versions of songs. Hopefully this can be understood, although it may be a lot of work for Jimmy. And that may be reason
why Jimmy might pull his hair out thinking what version of a song should be released. Again, unless you understand
that Jimmy had to experiment with different guitar parts , and having to evaluate how it all works out in a song, there has
to be more studio stuff.

Well I think Jimmy was doing some unusual EQ settings on parts and whole songs. HOFN has so many overdubs and
sudden EQ spikes, even today I have not really heard almost any guitarist do that live., to suddenly ramp up the midrange,dip the bass, and at the same time have high notes suddenly go from muted to shrill, and back. There is no
pedal for this. NFBM has none of this, or very little, so there isn't much challenge to do the song live. RO certainly
could be done, but even this song has sudden EQ shifts so some of the song would have to be adapted for live.
Actually, Dancing Days is probably a clearer example of what I mean to say; live certain parts were just not easily
replicated, probably why the song was only done in 72'-73'. For Your Love was cool at 07', but even this song Jimmy
couldn't mix all the guitars together. Presence is high up there for me as well, at that time no one was doing the guitar
orchestra's like Jimmy.

Well this is a private argument, but there are quite a few Zep tunes which are quite far from what most would call "rock",
and rarelygot played even a long time ago. At the same time, "rock" has become a meaningless term. The Doors were
a mainly rock group ? Most of Floyd rock ? Even the Stones ?( watch it now, the Stones have a jambalaya stew of styles
on most albums, not just "Satisfaction"). But no comment on Plant's comments. But Kashmir takes the cake, it is a bit
psychedelic, totally exotic and unique, it is just called rock for easy reference. There are so many brilliant elements
colliding in Kashmir, it is unlableable..