Uppuluri, Shigeko

ORAL HISTORY OF SHIGEKO UPPULURI
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
July 27, 2012
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, this is Keith McDaniel and today is July the 27th, 2012, and I am at the home of Shigeko Uppuluri, here in Oak Ridge. Thank you so much for agreeing to talk to with us.
MRS. UPPULURI: Thank you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Why don't you tell me a little bit about where you were born and raised. Let's start at the very beginning.
MRS. UPPULURI: I was born 1931 in a city called Kyoto. Many people think of Kyoto as the ancient capital of Japan. And it's just a little east of Osaka, in Osaka.
MR. MCDANIEL: So what about your family? Tell me about your, did you have any brothers or sisters? What did your parents do?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yeah, my Great-Grandfather lived in Northern Country village, but in Kyoto there are two huge temples. And they used to come on horse buggy carrying rice to supply to one of these temples. And then later, he settled down in Kyoto and that's how my family started.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: And so I had my Grandfather, Father and Mom. My Mom is still living.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. UPPULURI: She is 104 years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. UPPULURI: All my family, brother, sister are in Kyoto area.
MR. MCDANIEL: So how did you get to the United States?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well I went to college in Kyoto. And then I found there's a Fulbright Scholarship for the United States. So then I got, I was studying English or so and was interested in why English speaking people speak and think in English, so I wanted to find out. So what do you think, in your language or in any other language or does it make any other difference. I was so curious about this so I applied for scholarship. And I was granted Women's College Scholarship and that’s how I came to United States. But before that we had a professor from Northwestern University in our college. And they both husband and wife. Dr and Mrs. - and they told me you go South Western school, you only see the West Coast. If you go to New York, you only see the East Coast. You go to somewhere in the middle this time. And they recommended that I come to Indiana University.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? So what year did you arrive in the United States?
MRS. UPPULURI: I think it was '58, something like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, so you came here in 1958. Now and you went to college at Indiana University. And what did you study?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, first I was interested in, I didn't know exactly what I would study, but I was interested in social science, sociology. And then when I talked to professor he told me, you are more interested in anthropology. So I changed to anthropology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. Now alright did you meet your husband in college?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, my Anthropology Department was next to the Mathematics Department and that's where he was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh is that right? So you met him there in the Mathematics Department. So how did you end up in Oak Ridge?
MRS. UPPULURI: He was studying and finishing his Ph.D., and he said he wanted to work for the nuclear science area. And then of course he knew Oak Ridge Laboratory before that. So he applied and we came here.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you came here in what year?
MRS. UPPULURI: 1963.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1963.
MRS. UPPULURI: And we have a son then who was born in 1961, so he was just over two years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: When you came here, just two years old. Now when you first came to Oak Ridge, where did you live?
MRS. UPPULURI: We lived in a one room apartment that right now is the Manhattan shopping area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. Yes exactly. And how long have you been in this house?
MRS. UPPULURI: Since 1972.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay so what your son's name?
MRS. UPPULURI: Ram.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay so Ram. Is that the only child you had? Okay, so he was raised in Oak Ridge?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was it like in the 60's and 70's?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, he liked this place. And he went to Willow Brook School, and was here for junior high and high school. I didn't have to take him around. He could just walk around. And did very well in school time and he liked doing the sports and everything.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when you came here did you get a job, did you go to work?
MRS. UPPULURI: No, I was a home mother. Then when he went to high school I would be free and then Oak Ridge Laboratory people called me and they asked me, do you speak Japanese. I said that's the only language I speak. So then it was an interesting time in 1970. Laboratory was getting more computer, was getting more advanced. They can get converted from main language to Japanese, any other language. The Lab was getting more information from Japanese journals and they were looking for someone who could read them, write and translate. And that's how I was hired in 1976, but that year, we had to go to California for one year. He was teaching at the University of California. We came back in 1977.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: Then I started working here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what did your husband do at the Lab?
MRS. UPPULURI: He was in the Math Division. He was working all the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, Sure. And how long did you stay at the Lab working?
MRS. UPPULURI: It was 1976 and then 1991, 1991 my husband's health was getting, he had a kidney problem.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MRS. UPPULURI: And so later he had a transplant, kidney transplant. That's when he wasn't able to go abroad when he was having this, what you call this. I think it's dialysis.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yes, dialysis sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: He wasn't able to go anywhere. But then in 1994, I quit working because he needed more assistance.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: Then he had a kidney transplant. He was fine, but then one day, he had some trouble, then in 1995 of July he died.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? And you didn't go back to work after he passed away?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, I retired. We had bunch of girls who would was running for the Information Manager. Most of them well educated housewives. And we took care of--
MR. MCDANIEL: There were a lot of those in Oak Ridge, weren't they. Well educated housewives.
MRS. UPPULURI: We had a good time and then so by the time our mission was to do a database for the carcinogens. Those were the - which you know is for abnormal babies who are born, that kind of thing we did. We gathered information through National Library of Medicine in Bethesda, Maryland, you know. That time was almost lost completely so we, I was getting old so I couldn't be old--
MR. MCDANIEL: Well sure, older. Sure, sure I understand, so that was a good time for you to retire, was because your project was about to be come to an end anyway. Now so I’m sure you got involved in Oak Ridge when you came here. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your social activities.
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, that time, around here, my neighbors were engineers and biologists and all the physicists and everybody was like that. I was very well fit in this environment. And then at that time in Oak Ridge, lots of ladies were interested in art, music, theater, all the things. You know, I was immediately interested in these things.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: I went to the concert, I went to the Playhouse; we did lots of things. So, it was a really nice time to be here.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure it was. That's one of the things people say about Oak Ridge was it's you know it had a lot of culture and the people that came here were used to that. So you know they, if it wasn't here, they would start it. So did you belong to any civic groups or organizations.
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me a little bit about that.
MRS. UPPULURI: We had International, what you call, Club.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: And all the people got together, we ate together, we danced together. Things like that. Also personally my son was grown up nicely and he was meeting lots of young people life's to me because I didn't know. I grew up Japan. So I got to know how the student enjoy teachers and everybody was so good to us. You know I really enjoyed it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now was, was growing up in Japan and you know coming to Tennessee. How was that different culturally for you?
MRS. UPPULURI: Just a one thing, I was adjusting to the University for first time. So I was also in college in Japan, so college life was more or less same. I mean, you know I didn't have to be, I didn't have to be with town people because I know some of my friends who came over to United States had to live with everyday town people. My association was a student and other colleague type.
MR. MCDANIEL: Those are kind of the same everywhere aren't they?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Same interest.
MRS. UPPULURI: But my husband was very much interested in northern cultures. Especially Tennessee culture also. So I first I didn't understand what they were talking. But luckily then I understand what their language was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly, exactly. It's difficult for somebody from New York to understand. Much less Japan. So that is true. So let’s talk a little bit about your relationship with Alvin Weinberg. And did you know him well?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well I only knew his name. And once a year he used to give a state of art sort of speech and a talk. So we, I used to go with my husband. And that's how I knew him, Dr. Weinberg. And then in back in 1980, things in Oak Ridge were slightly changing then at that time. The war ended and there was some thirty years or so. Then at the time, especially when Oak Ridge said we are going celebrate 50th anniversary.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. UPPULURI: That's how I came to know more, Dr. Weinberg.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Well tell me more about that because I know you worked on the Bell Project together. So tell me about the Bell Project because that's an important part of our history here in the city.
MRS. UPPULURI: A city committee was asking citizens that we need to have some prominent peace monument. And so quite a few, ten or so people gather proposal. And we found Esther, what is her name, she is a good proposal writer. So my husband approached her and give her what he was thinking about. There were lots of other Japanese scientists were here and we always talk about it. And then we found it come around and we thought maybe we should do something about it. This is a fact, so if we had something to commemorate or long term peace. So we talked around and then we didn't get any good idea what to do. Meanwhile, other people came up with British Garden and some hanging memorials, sculpture, things like that. That time 1980, late 1980, Ram and I went to Japan. We used to go there with my sister and husband. So the one person took us to near the shore, seashore and the temple had the huge bell hanging. And my husband said we want this in Oak Ridge. And I looked at him and think crazy.
MR. MCDANIEL: But he saw it and knew it was exactly what it needed to be, didn't he?
MRS. UPPULURI: He said this will last for a long time, you don't have to clean it up every day, you don't have to put it in an air conditioned room. That's what he said.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's pretty practical isn't it? It certainly is.
MRS. UPPULURI: And then when we came back, we started talking about it to the other people. And of course we have lots of American friends and lots of people who said, “Oh, that is a good idea”. So we started talking and we found the bell maker in Kyoto, where I'm from which by international scientist from Kyoto and they said my sister lives next to the bell maker’s neighborhood and we can give you his name. And that how fast I wrote him a letter saying that we are thinking of it, but we don't know whether it is going to be here in Oak Ridge or not. We are thinking of having this bell. Then over a few years, committee said whoever, whoever sent that proposal, we choose one, we'll give 300,000 dollars.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: So we that's really good. And later they told us there was no money, we have to raise your own money. Oh goodness. That's how we started though and we came to the point that there is no way that we can raise that much money by just writing a letter. So finally my husband said lets go talk to Dr. Alvin, Dr. Weinberg and that's how we went. And Dr. Weinberg was then, I was leading this Hiroshima visit by him. I found out he was thinking of something to say thanks to Hiroshima, you know. So he immediately would say that's a good idea, I will help you, that's how we came to know him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? So you finally went to him once you realized you were going to have to have some help with the money. And he thought it was a good idea. So was, what year was that, early 80's.
MRS. UPPULURI: ‘90.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, 1990. So what was, did you work with him on the Bell Project after that, tell me a little about, well tell me what else happened with the Bell Project.
MRS. UPPULURI: Then next, Dr. Weinberg formed a committee and I would be a chair. So he was a chair for quite some time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. UPPULURI: Right. So he was saying okay to raise money I have lots known, well-known people around the world and I write a letter to them and I need money. And even he said I have Gold Medal given My American Physics Society. And I can sell it for 10,000 dollars and give it to you. But that's how we started, but we gradually started getting some money. In 1993, a bell maker came and gave an estimate for bell it will cost this, this, and this. And our company usually do when you order the bell, one-third put down and another third when we cast it, when we deliver it you pay it all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, the first time, we didn't have money. So my husband said okay I can put all my savings.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: And then maybe we'll move he said okay I will lower the cost and I can wait until we cast the bell.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: Meanwhile, Dr. Weinberg went write everybody, call everybody and make some money.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did, so did most of the money come outside Oak Ridge?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, yes. Everybody, at that time I didn't have computer. But my old processor I brought from Japan, I type that overnight.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? So how much did the bell end up costing.
MRS. UPPULURI: 25-- 250,000 dollars.
MR. MCDANIEL: 250,000 dollars is what it ended up costing. And when was it delivered and dedicated?
MRS. UPPULURI: Then I was teaching also Japanese language at the University of Tennessee. So then the University chancellor, Dr. Snider said, we have UT has a policy that the professor who knows any European language, if they want to learn one more language and don't have chance to study and you can, they can apply to the language teacher. So for the Japanese Language, 40 professors came to meet the condition that they have to stick with me for one year
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: To study.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: Then only the University would give money to them to go to Japan. And that's how I started and ended up with 12 professors came to me to study and finish their one year course. Then Dr. Pat Postma was a professor of economics.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, his wife.
MRS. UPPULURI: Her husband had shown interest. And my husband was also interested. So, Dr. Postma and my husband and two other people including me and 14 professors went to Japan.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes for three weeks.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. UPPULURI: And I had ended everything and that time luckily UT had a sister city in Muroran. Which is a northern island called Hokkaido. And that time Muroran delegate was, delegation was leading UT. So I got to meet them, and I got to say to them, mayor was there. Well, I have to take 14 faculty to the tour to Japan and I don't know where to begin. So can I come to your city.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: And they were so, “Oh, yes, come here”. So our class went into Muroran and we headed all the way past Tokyo, Kyoto and then went to Hiroshima. And then we stayed many places with these people.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Now, is that how our Sister City came to be?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes not in 1993. Our sister city formed 1990. A couple years earlier. There was, they also had a school. In fact we stayed in Sister City for four nights. We did home stay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow. So you had the bell cast and you had it delivered. And I'm sure you had a ceremony. Tell me about that.
MRS. UPPULURI: Big ceremony.
MR. MCDANIEL: And when was that?
MRS. UPPULURI: In the 1990's July 14th.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay July 14th, 199--
MRS. UPPULURI: July 14th, everybody in Japan know that is one of the big three festivals in Kyoto. We were there, right there and we were go out and the bell maker say come to my foundry factory. We will do the melting of the molding, you know copper and tin, mix it and they melt it. So we witnessed it and there was a big ceremony for that. And after of course he gave us a big nice lunch and that evening we were welcomed by Kyoto notary people, notary.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: And then we were invited big restaurant, I think it was a hotel and there was a geisha girls.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow.
MRS. UPPULURI: It was something. Was very nice dinner we had.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, and that was '93?
MRS. UPPULURI: 1993, July 14th.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when did the bell arrive in Oak Ridge?
MRS. UPPULURI: It was, it took about, how do we transport the bell from Kyoto to Oak Ridge, was big problem too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, then my husband said okay, we are with air base people and carry it on helicopter and bring it here. Well then Honda Car Company in that area where my younger brother was working, happen to work as a newspaper company reporter. And he found out, Honda he told me, Honda is willing transport your bell. And I couldn't believe it. So I visited Honda company and there people already set and I said okay we have everything ready. And they just take one car out of the ship and put our bell there. And so all transportation on the ocean was insured by them. We didn't have to pay a penny of it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow, so what they did was left one car off and put your bell on to bring to the United States.
MRS. UPPULURI: And it came to Savannah, Georgia. And we had to go get the bell from there. Then Dr. Herman Postma said okay we have some nuclear waste company here. They always take the nuclear waste to Savannah, Georgia and put it on a Russian boat and then come home with an empty truck, and we just put your bell in the empty truck.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, and it was just delivered. So, till one day they brought the bell home Dr. Postma and we all went there and it was huge crate. About this house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: And then the big bell came out and inside the bell there this replica of this bell, 400 of them where there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? 400 of them?
MRS. UPPULURI: 400 of them. ‘Cause I remember when we had the party at the Bell casting day, we were sitting in the nice living, nice room and there was hundred. And he said you know I didn't tell you this, but I made 500 replica bell because I know the bell you paid it but now you deal with the house, it will cost you lot of money. You start selling this bell, $250 a piece.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: And then you will get the money ready to build the house. And then he said I will keep 100 in Japan and try to sell to a lot of people. With that 400 he takes, and this will cost about $60 then back then ratio. So, if he sell $100 that will be enough to cover the cost--
MR. MCDANIEL: The cost of him making those, oh I see.
MRS. UPPULURI: 400 of whatever we sell is for the Bell house, that what happened.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. So did you sell those 400?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, only a few are left now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Wow, wow that amazing.
MRS. UPPULURI: It is amazing.
MR. MCDANIEL: I had never heard that story, I've never heard that. So now so, so you had the place built where the bell was to hang and then it came time for you to hang the bell and have the dedication.
MRS. UPPULURI: It wasn't that huge though. The first time they opened the crate, the first time when we opened the crate and now what to do with the bell. There are lots of anti-bell opinion.
MR. MCDANIEL: I wanted to ask, you know I was going to get to that.
MRS. UPPULURI: I had lots of newspaper come here. But then you can understand that because many of them are at the Pearl Harbor then and they had - we apologized in Japan for that. And so a lot of people responded to this letter. And one high school student said, forget about the war, it happened so many years ago. Just let’s go for the peace. And that was really good. And about the time, a while the bell was just hung in air, so the Oak Ridge City put the bell in the atrium of the City Hall. Right in the middle of the, for a while there until City came to agreement that we will put that in the Bissell Park, and now it's there. And meanwhile, Dr. Postma is walking, start working on the getting money to build the house. And he said many people come to the Laboratory and we can ask them any kind donations. Like cement and planting trees and things like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, and that's how it got to be there.
MRS. UPPULURI: That was after Dr. Weinberg said okay how do we get the money. I remember that day, so that's how Dr. Weinberg and Dr. Hammond talking.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, talk a little about the anti-bell folks.
MRS. UPPULURI: Well--
MR. MCDANIEL: I mean was it bad, I mean was it?
MRS. UPPULURI: It was, that argument that you can appeal to American people of course. You know went through the war and lots of people killed in a part which probably unexpectedly at that time by Japanese. But that's the thing, even at that time, I read, I see that, even at that time, when the military was such powerful and our system was so strong, there were people that was against this war between America and Japan. Those people thought we can never go, look at this, America being such a rich country. And there was no way to win. Even the general of the Navy said that, once we started America people never stop fighting. We knew that but still that's what happened.
MR. MCDANIEL: But there were people here in Oak Ridge when they found out what you were doing with the Bell, they didn't like that at all did they?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, not everybody.
MR. MCDANIEL: There were some people though, so did you have any personal threats or anything--
MRS. UPPULURI: No, nothing like that, of course. But they took the thing to the court and by the time, you UT department of religion and Dr. Miriam Levering, I have the article here. She said, she went to appeal of course and then I understand U.S. Court we are not taking this case. And that was it.
MR. MCDANIEL: That was it?
MRS. UPPULURI: But Levering, Miriam wrote a paper and presented to Tokyo meeting of world religion saying there are, her argument was of course anti-Japan too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: It supported the temple built but why do we have to, this is a Christian country. Why do we have to have, you know, other religion as a symbol in the city. That was the big argument.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's what it was, they turned it into a religious argument.
MRS. UPPULURI: That's right. Then Miriam says their bell looks like one bell in front of the United Nation, the bell in San Francisco Park, there are many bell that has nothing to do with religion. It's just a peace for the people bell, that's how the argument won I think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right exactly. You know when you came to Oak Ridge, you said that was in '60--
MRS. UPPULURI: '63
MR. MCDANIEL: '63. That was almost twenty years after the end of World War Two. Did you face, you being Japanese, did you face any discrimination, any bad feelings.
MRS. UPPULURI: For me, fortunately I, I mean I’m such an easy mind going person. I didn't feel anything because it’s all like.... I have some, lots of other Japanese friends who came as a, sort of war bride and here some of them had a hardship.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really, huh, my goodness. Now, I’m not aware, is there any, you know any are there a lot of Japanese in this area?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MRS. UPPULURI: Many younger than me, I’m 80. Many young about 70, who came, those days there were Korea War, Vietnam War and those soldiers always have a vacation and they always go to Japan and meet these girls.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MRS. UPPULURI: Three of my really good Japanese friends, they were all like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, and so they came. One went to Louisiana, and two of them fortunately most of them husband were from here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: So, they were brought to Tennessee and then it's funny that some of them lived in the city where they have bathroom and running water and all that. And here some live in country side--
MR. MCDANIEL: And they don't have all that.
MRS. UPPULURI: It was big surprise for them.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure. Have you gotten used to our way of talking? Have you?
MRS. UPPULURI: Oh, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: You can understand. That's good. Well, that is good. Is there anything else you want to talk about, anything else?
MRS. UPPULURI: You know after living here for almost 50 years, my life has been really great. I have lots of good friends here and I go to Japan to visit, I go to there once or twice a year. And I don't, I used to feel I’m home now and you know but now I feel like I'm sort of leaving some place.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: My relatives place. And I feel more and more that this is my home country now and my of course my son and his family are growing up and they are in Washington, D.C.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: And they fine. And I’m very comfortable to make through here in this country.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now are you still active in things.
MRS. UPPULURI: You know I have this one thing, I have many friends theater going, concert going all this people you know traveling kind of people. And we started this exchange student program 1990 and just this month, July, ten students and two teachers went to Japan and just came back.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: And next month, 10 students and two teachers coming to Japan to here. And they staying here for about ten days. Stay in the home family, home stay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure and you’re involved in that? Yes. Well good, well good. Is there anything you want to say about Dr. Weinberg, while we’re here?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, you know I, Dr. Weinberg, my husband also ORNL and he was ORNL and his office was there and my husband had office there. And to me, when he said yes I help you me, he had after seeing Hiroshima, he went there in the previous year, he had some kind, he wrote a book about Big Science and about that. He had that era 1970, 80's, that was Dr. Pollard of the Pollard historian down at ORNL, quite a spiritual you know. I feel that spiritual part of looking at the science and all the things, you know. I think that era 1980, quite some scientist had that feeling about the spiritual feeling about--
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, they. You know they started to think they were getting older, they had been involved this and that's what happen a lot when you get older, you start thinking about those things.
MRS. UPPULURI: Dr. Weinberg always talk about Hiroshima, and you know the big bomb and I think somewhere in his deep mind, he was thinking about that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Alright, well thank you very much for talking.
[END OF INTERVIEW]

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ORAL HISTORY OF SHIGEKO UPPULURI
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
July 27, 2012
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, this is Keith McDaniel and today is July the 27th, 2012, and I am at the home of Shigeko Uppuluri, here in Oak Ridge. Thank you so much for agreeing to talk to with us.
MRS. UPPULURI: Thank you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Why don't you tell me a little bit about where you were born and raised. Let's start at the very beginning.
MRS. UPPULURI: I was born 1931 in a city called Kyoto. Many people think of Kyoto as the ancient capital of Japan. And it's just a little east of Osaka, in Osaka.
MR. MCDANIEL: So what about your family? Tell me about your, did you have any brothers or sisters? What did your parents do?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yeah, my Great-Grandfather lived in Northern Country village, but in Kyoto there are two huge temples. And they used to come on horse buggy carrying rice to supply to one of these temples. And then later, he settled down in Kyoto and that's how my family started.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: And so I had my Grandfather, Father and Mom. My Mom is still living.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. UPPULURI: She is 104 years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. UPPULURI: All my family, brother, sister are in Kyoto area.
MR. MCDANIEL: So how did you get to the United States?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well I went to college in Kyoto. And then I found there's a Fulbright Scholarship for the United States. So then I got, I was studying English or so and was interested in why English speaking people speak and think in English, so I wanted to find out. So what do you think, in your language or in any other language or does it make any other difference. I was so curious about this so I applied for scholarship. And I was granted Women's College Scholarship and that’s how I came to United States. But before that we had a professor from Northwestern University in our college. And they both husband and wife. Dr and Mrs. - and they told me you go South Western school, you only see the West Coast. If you go to New York, you only see the East Coast. You go to somewhere in the middle this time. And they recommended that I come to Indiana University.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? So what year did you arrive in the United States?
MRS. UPPULURI: I think it was '58, something like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, so you came here in 1958. Now and you went to college at Indiana University. And what did you study?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, first I was interested in, I didn't know exactly what I would study, but I was interested in social science, sociology. And then when I talked to professor he told me, you are more interested in anthropology. So I changed to anthropology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. Now alright did you meet your husband in college?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, my Anthropology Department was next to the Mathematics Department and that's where he was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh is that right? So you met him there in the Mathematics Department. So how did you end up in Oak Ridge?
MRS. UPPULURI: He was studying and finishing his Ph.D., and he said he wanted to work for the nuclear science area. And then of course he knew Oak Ridge Laboratory before that. So he applied and we came here.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you came here in what year?
MRS. UPPULURI: 1963.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1963.
MRS. UPPULURI: And we have a son then who was born in 1961, so he was just over two years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: When you came here, just two years old. Now when you first came to Oak Ridge, where did you live?
MRS. UPPULURI: We lived in a one room apartment that right now is the Manhattan shopping area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. Yes exactly. And how long have you been in this house?
MRS. UPPULURI: Since 1972.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay so what your son's name?
MRS. UPPULURI: Ram.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay so Ram. Is that the only child you had? Okay, so he was raised in Oak Ridge?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was it like in the 60's and 70's?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, he liked this place. And he went to Willow Brook School, and was here for junior high and high school. I didn't have to take him around. He could just walk around. And did very well in school time and he liked doing the sports and everything.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when you came here did you get a job, did you go to work?
MRS. UPPULURI: No, I was a home mother. Then when he went to high school I would be free and then Oak Ridge Laboratory people called me and they asked me, do you speak Japanese. I said that's the only language I speak. So then it was an interesting time in 1970. Laboratory was getting more computer, was getting more advanced. They can get converted from main language to Japanese, any other language. The Lab was getting more information from Japanese journals and they were looking for someone who could read them, write and translate. And that's how I was hired in 1976, but that year, we had to go to California for one year. He was teaching at the University of California. We came back in 1977.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: Then I started working here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what did your husband do at the Lab?
MRS. UPPULURI: He was in the Math Division. He was working all the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, Sure. And how long did you stay at the Lab working?
MRS. UPPULURI: It was 1976 and then 1991, 1991 my husband's health was getting, he had a kidney problem.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MRS. UPPULURI: And so later he had a transplant, kidney transplant. That's when he wasn't able to go abroad when he was having this, what you call this. I think it's dialysis.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yes, dialysis sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: He wasn't able to go anywhere. But then in 1994, I quit working because he needed more assistance.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: Then he had a kidney transplant. He was fine, but then one day, he had some trouble, then in 1995 of July he died.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? And you didn't go back to work after he passed away?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, I retired. We had bunch of girls who would was running for the Information Manager. Most of them well educated housewives. And we took care of--
MR. MCDANIEL: There were a lot of those in Oak Ridge, weren't they. Well educated housewives.
MRS. UPPULURI: We had a good time and then so by the time our mission was to do a database for the carcinogens. Those were the - which you know is for abnormal babies who are born, that kind of thing we did. We gathered information through National Library of Medicine in Bethesda, Maryland, you know. That time was almost lost completely so we, I was getting old so I couldn't be old--
MR. MCDANIEL: Well sure, older. Sure, sure I understand, so that was a good time for you to retire, was because your project was about to be come to an end anyway. Now so I’m sure you got involved in Oak Ridge when you came here. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your social activities.
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, that time, around here, my neighbors were engineers and biologists and all the physicists and everybody was like that. I was very well fit in this environment. And then at that time in Oak Ridge, lots of ladies were interested in art, music, theater, all the things. You know, I was immediately interested in these things.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: I went to the concert, I went to the Playhouse; we did lots of things. So, it was a really nice time to be here.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure it was. That's one of the things people say about Oak Ridge was it's you know it had a lot of culture and the people that came here were used to that. So you know they, if it wasn't here, they would start it. So did you belong to any civic groups or organizations.
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me a little bit about that.
MRS. UPPULURI: We had International, what you call, Club.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: And all the people got together, we ate together, we danced together. Things like that. Also personally my son was grown up nicely and he was meeting lots of young people life's to me because I didn't know. I grew up Japan. So I got to know how the student enjoy teachers and everybody was so good to us. You know I really enjoyed it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now was, was growing up in Japan and you know coming to Tennessee. How was that different culturally for you?
MRS. UPPULURI: Just a one thing, I was adjusting to the University for first time. So I was also in college in Japan, so college life was more or less same. I mean, you know I didn't have to be, I didn't have to be with town people because I know some of my friends who came over to United States had to live with everyday town people. My association was a student and other colleague type.
MR. MCDANIEL: Those are kind of the same everywhere aren't they?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Same interest.
MRS. UPPULURI: But my husband was very much interested in northern cultures. Especially Tennessee culture also. So I first I didn't understand what they were talking. But luckily then I understand what their language was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly, exactly. It's difficult for somebody from New York to understand. Much less Japan. So that is true. So let’s talk a little bit about your relationship with Alvin Weinberg. And did you know him well?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well I only knew his name. And once a year he used to give a state of art sort of speech and a talk. So we, I used to go with my husband. And that's how I knew him, Dr. Weinberg. And then in back in 1980, things in Oak Ridge were slightly changing then at that time. The war ended and there was some thirty years or so. Then at the time, especially when Oak Ridge said we are going celebrate 50th anniversary.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. UPPULURI: That's how I came to know more, Dr. Weinberg.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Well tell me more about that because I know you worked on the Bell Project together. So tell me about the Bell Project because that's an important part of our history here in the city.
MRS. UPPULURI: A city committee was asking citizens that we need to have some prominent peace monument. And so quite a few, ten or so people gather proposal. And we found Esther, what is her name, she is a good proposal writer. So my husband approached her and give her what he was thinking about. There were lots of other Japanese scientists were here and we always talk about it. And then we found it come around and we thought maybe we should do something about it. This is a fact, so if we had something to commemorate or long term peace. So we talked around and then we didn't get any good idea what to do. Meanwhile, other people came up with British Garden and some hanging memorials, sculpture, things like that. That time 1980, late 1980, Ram and I went to Japan. We used to go there with my sister and husband. So the one person took us to near the shore, seashore and the temple had the huge bell hanging. And my husband said we want this in Oak Ridge. And I looked at him and think crazy.
MR. MCDANIEL: But he saw it and knew it was exactly what it needed to be, didn't he?
MRS. UPPULURI: He said this will last for a long time, you don't have to clean it up every day, you don't have to put it in an air conditioned room. That's what he said.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's pretty practical isn't it? It certainly is.
MRS. UPPULURI: And then when we came back, we started talking about it to the other people. And of course we have lots of American friends and lots of people who said, “Oh, that is a good idea”. So we started talking and we found the bell maker in Kyoto, where I'm from which by international scientist from Kyoto and they said my sister lives next to the bell maker’s neighborhood and we can give you his name. And that how fast I wrote him a letter saying that we are thinking of it, but we don't know whether it is going to be here in Oak Ridge or not. We are thinking of having this bell. Then over a few years, committee said whoever, whoever sent that proposal, we choose one, we'll give 300,000 dollars.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: So we that's really good. And later they told us there was no money, we have to raise your own money. Oh goodness. That's how we started though and we came to the point that there is no way that we can raise that much money by just writing a letter. So finally my husband said lets go talk to Dr. Alvin, Dr. Weinberg and that's how we went. And Dr. Weinberg was then, I was leading this Hiroshima visit by him. I found out he was thinking of something to say thanks to Hiroshima, you know. So he immediately would say that's a good idea, I will help you, that's how we came to know him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? So you finally went to him once you realized you were going to have to have some help with the money. And he thought it was a good idea. So was, what year was that, early 80's.
MRS. UPPULURI: ‘90.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, 1990. So what was, did you work with him on the Bell Project after that, tell me a little about, well tell me what else happened with the Bell Project.
MRS. UPPULURI: Then next, Dr. Weinberg formed a committee and I would be a chair. So he was a chair for quite some time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. UPPULURI: Right. So he was saying okay to raise money I have lots known, well-known people around the world and I write a letter to them and I need money. And even he said I have Gold Medal given My American Physics Society. And I can sell it for 10,000 dollars and give it to you. But that's how we started, but we gradually started getting some money. In 1993, a bell maker came and gave an estimate for bell it will cost this, this, and this. And our company usually do when you order the bell, one-third put down and another third when we cast it, when we deliver it you pay it all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, the first time, we didn't have money. So my husband said okay I can put all my savings.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: And then maybe we'll move he said okay I will lower the cost and I can wait until we cast the bell.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: Meanwhile, Dr. Weinberg went write everybody, call everybody and make some money.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did, so did most of the money come outside Oak Ridge?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, yes. Everybody, at that time I didn't have computer. But my old processor I brought from Japan, I type that overnight.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? So how much did the bell end up costing.
MRS. UPPULURI: 25-- 250,000 dollars.
MR. MCDANIEL: 250,000 dollars is what it ended up costing. And when was it delivered and dedicated?
MRS. UPPULURI: Then I was teaching also Japanese language at the University of Tennessee. So then the University chancellor, Dr. Snider said, we have UT has a policy that the professor who knows any European language, if they want to learn one more language and don't have chance to study and you can, they can apply to the language teacher. So for the Japanese Language, 40 professors came to meet the condition that they have to stick with me for one year
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: To study.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: Then only the University would give money to them to go to Japan. And that's how I started and ended up with 12 professors came to me to study and finish their one year course. Then Dr. Pat Postma was a professor of economics.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, his wife.
MRS. UPPULURI: Her husband had shown interest. And my husband was also interested. So, Dr. Postma and my husband and two other people including me and 14 professors went to Japan.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes for three weeks.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. UPPULURI: And I had ended everything and that time luckily UT had a sister city in Muroran. Which is a northern island called Hokkaido. And that time Muroran delegate was, delegation was leading UT. So I got to meet them, and I got to say to them, mayor was there. Well, I have to take 14 faculty to the tour to Japan and I don't know where to begin. So can I come to your city.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: And they were so, “Oh, yes, come here”. So our class went into Muroran and we headed all the way past Tokyo, Kyoto and then went to Hiroshima. And then we stayed many places with these people.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Now, is that how our Sister City came to be?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes not in 1993. Our sister city formed 1990. A couple years earlier. There was, they also had a school. In fact we stayed in Sister City for four nights. We did home stay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow. So you had the bell cast and you had it delivered. And I'm sure you had a ceremony. Tell me about that.
MRS. UPPULURI: Big ceremony.
MR. MCDANIEL: And when was that?
MRS. UPPULURI: In the 1990's July 14th.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay July 14th, 199--
MRS. UPPULURI: July 14th, everybody in Japan know that is one of the big three festivals in Kyoto. We were there, right there and we were go out and the bell maker say come to my foundry factory. We will do the melting of the molding, you know copper and tin, mix it and they melt it. So we witnessed it and there was a big ceremony for that. And after of course he gave us a big nice lunch and that evening we were welcomed by Kyoto notary people, notary.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: And then we were invited big restaurant, I think it was a hotel and there was a geisha girls.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow.
MRS. UPPULURI: It was something. Was very nice dinner we had.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, and that was '93?
MRS. UPPULURI: 1993, July 14th.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when did the bell arrive in Oak Ridge?
MRS. UPPULURI: It was, it took about, how do we transport the bell from Kyoto to Oak Ridge, was big problem too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, then my husband said okay, we are with air base people and carry it on helicopter and bring it here. Well then Honda Car Company in that area where my younger brother was working, happen to work as a newspaper company reporter. And he found out, Honda he told me, Honda is willing transport your bell. And I couldn't believe it. So I visited Honda company and there people already set and I said okay we have everything ready. And they just take one car out of the ship and put our bell there. And so all transportation on the ocean was insured by them. We didn't have to pay a penny of it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow, so what they did was left one car off and put your bell on to bring to the United States.
MRS. UPPULURI: And it came to Savannah, Georgia. And we had to go get the bell from there. Then Dr. Herman Postma said okay we have some nuclear waste company here. They always take the nuclear waste to Savannah, Georgia and put it on a Russian boat and then come home with an empty truck, and we just put your bell in the empty truck.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, and it was just delivered. So, till one day they brought the bell home Dr. Postma and we all went there and it was huge crate. About this house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: And then the big bell came out and inside the bell there this replica of this bell, 400 of them where there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? 400 of them?
MRS. UPPULURI: 400 of them. ‘Cause I remember when we had the party at the Bell casting day, we were sitting in the nice living, nice room and there was hundred. And he said you know I didn't tell you this, but I made 500 replica bell because I know the bell you paid it but now you deal with the house, it will cost you lot of money. You start selling this bell, $250 a piece.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: And then you will get the money ready to build the house. And then he said I will keep 100 in Japan and try to sell to a lot of people. With that 400 he takes, and this will cost about $60 then back then ratio. So, if he sell $100 that will be enough to cover the cost--
MR. MCDANIEL: The cost of him making those, oh I see.
MRS. UPPULURI: 400 of whatever we sell is for the Bell house, that what happened.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. So did you sell those 400?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, only a few are left now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Wow, wow that amazing.
MRS. UPPULURI: It is amazing.
MR. MCDANIEL: I had never heard that story, I've never heard that. So now so, so you had the place built where the bell was to hang and then it came time for you to hang the bell and have the dedication.
MRS. UPPULURI: It wasn't that huge though. The first time they opened the crate, the first time when we opened the crate and now what to do with the bell. There are lots of anti-bell opinion.
MR. MCDANIEL: I wanted to ask, you know I was going to get to that.
MRS. UPPULURI: I had lots of newspaper come here. But then you can understand that because many of them are at the Pearl Harbor then and they had - we apologized in Japan for that. And so a lot of people responded to this letter. And one high school student said, forget about the war, it happened so many years ago. Just let’s go for the peace. And that was really good. And about the time, a while the bell was just hung in air, so the Oak Ridge City put the bell in the atrium of the City Hall. Right in the middle of the, for a while there until City came to agreement that we will put that in the Bissell Park, and now it's there. And meanwhile, Dr. Postma is walking, start working on the getting money to build the house. And he said many people come to the Laboratory and we can ask them any kind donations. Like cement and planting trees and things like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, and that's how it got to be there.
MRS. UPPULURI: That was after Dr. Weinberg said okay how do we get the money. I remember that day, so that's how Dr. Weinberg and Dr. Hammond talking.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, talk a little about the anti-bell folks.
MRS. UPPULURI: Well--
MR. MCDANIEL: I mean was it bad, I mean was it?
MRS. UPPULURI: It was, that argument that you can appeal to American people of course. You know went through the war and lots of people killed in a part which probably unexpectedly at that time by Japanese. But that's the thing, even at that time, I read, I see that, even at that time, when the military was such powerful and our system was so strong, there were people that was against this war between America and Japan. Those people thought we can never go, look at this, America being such a rich country. And there was no way to win. Even the general of the Navy said that, once we started America people never stop fighting. We knew that but still that's what happened.
MR. MCDANIEL: But there were people here in Oak Ridge when they found out what you were doing with the Bell, they didn't like that at all did they?
MRS. UPPULURI: Well, not everybody.
MR. MCDANIEL: There were some people though, so did you have any personal threats or anything--
MRS. UPPULURI: No, nothing like that, of course. But they took the thing to the court and by the time, you UT department of religion and Dr. Miriam Levering, I have the article here. She said, she went to appeal of course and then I understand U.S. Court we are not taking this case. And that was it.
MR. MCDANIEL: That was it?
MRS. UPPULURI: But Levering, Miriam wrote a paper and presented to Tokyo meeting of world religion saying there are, her argument was of course anti-Japan too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: It supported the temple built but why do we have to, this is a Christian country. Why do we have to have, you know, other religion as a symbol in the city. That was the big argument.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's what it was, they turned it into a religious argument.
MRS. UPPULURI: That's right. Then Miriam says their bell looks like one bell in front of the United Nation, the bell in San Francisco Park, there are many bell that has nothing to do with religion. It's just a peace for the people bell, that's how the argument won I think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right exactly. You know when you came to Oak Ridge, you said that was in '60--
MRS. UPPULURI: '63
MR. MCDANIEL: '63. That was almost twenty years after the end of World War Two. Did you face, you being Japanese, did you face any discrimination, any bad feelings.
MRS. UPPULURI: For me, fortunately I, I mean I’m such an easy mind going person. I didn't feel anything because it’s all like.... I have some, lots of other Japanese friends who came as a, sort of war bride and here some of them had a hardship.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really, huh, my goodness. Now, I’m not aware, is there any, you know any are there a lot of Japanese in this area?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MRS. UPPULURI: Many younger than me, I’m 80. Many young about 70, who came, those days there were Korea War, Vietnam War and those soldiers always have a vacation and they always go to Japan and meet these girls.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MRS. UPPULURI: Three of my really good Japanese friends, they were all like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, and so they came. One went to Louisiana, and two of them fortunately most of them husband were from here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: So, they were brought to Tennessee and then it's funny that some of them lived in the city where they have bathroom and running water and all that. And here some live in country side--
MR. MCDANIEL: And they don't have all that.
MRS. UPPULURI: It was big surprise for them.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure. Have you gotten used to our way of talking? Have you?
MRS. UPPULURI: Oh, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: You can understand. That's good. Well, that is good. Is there anything else you want to talk about, anything else?
MRS. UPPULURI: You know after living here for almost 50 years, my life has been really great. I have lots of good friends here and I go to Japan to visit, I go to there once or twice a year. And I don't, I used to feel I’m home now and you know but now I feel like I'm sort of leaving some place.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. UPPULURI: My relatives place. And I feel more and more that this is my home country now and my of course my son and his family are growing up and they are in Washington, D.C.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. UPPULURI: And they fine. And I’m very comfortable to make through here in this country.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now are you still active in things.
MRS. UPPULURI: You know I have this one thing, I have many friends theater going, concert going all this people you know traveling kind of people. And we started this exchange student program 1990 and just this month, July, ten students and two teachers went to Japan and just came back.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. UPPULURI: And next month, 10 students and two teachers coming to Japan to here. And they staying here for about ten days. Stay in the home family, home stay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure and you’re involved in that? Yes. Well good, well good. Is there anything you want to say about Dr. Weinberg, while we’re here?
MRS. UPPULURI: Yes, you know I, Dr. Weinberg, my husband also ORNL and he was ORNL and his office was there and my husband had office there. And to me, when he said yes I help you me, he had after seeing Hiroshima, he went there in the previous year, he had some kind, he wrote a book about Big Science and about that. He had that era 1970, 80's, that was Dr. Pollard of the Pollard historian down at ORNL, quite a spiritual you know. I feel that spiritual part of looking at the science and all the things, you know. I think that era 1980, quite some scientist had that feeling about the spiritual feeling about--
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, they. You know they started to think they were getting older, they had been involved this and that's what happen a lot when you get older, you start thinking about those things.
MRS. UPPULURI: Dr. Weinberg always talk about Hiroshima, and you know the big bomb and I think somewhere in his deep mind, he was thinking about that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Alright, well thank you very much for talking.
[END OF INTERVIEW]