Who here is a computer programmer and makes atleast 50k and has only 3 years of experience in the industry?

eznet

That seems pretty par with what I have seen around where I live (in Alabama). If anything, that may be a bit low - I see ads all the time seeking people with 2-3yr experienced C++ and Java programmers for $60,000-90,000.
I really wish I could get in an entry level position so that I could get that experience I am a recent Computer Science graduate and cannot find a company that will give me a shot at programming to save my life. Currently I am studying for CompTIA's A+ certification because I can't even net a tech support job with my computer science degree right now! Kinda stinks because I spent a lot of money and time getting my education and I am now learning I would have been better off getting some certifications for 1/20 the price! All I can hope is that the more I program and come up with examples of my skills, the more likely someone will hire me and give me a shot - I am really tired of installing PCI cards and removing spyware from Windows machines for a living.

webpagist81884

The main reason why us USA computer science graduates can't get a shot at entry level positions is because over sea's ******, programmers from my mother land India, are taking up those jobs. If you look at the statistics, these broke un-patriotic self-centered immigrant programmers are virtually gonna make CS degree's useless for the average student or students who aren't born programmers but still love to make a living doing it. Blame outsourcing, especially outsourcing to India.

xalophus

webpagist81884 wrote:

these broke un-patriotic self-centered immigrant programmers

Hypocrisy, it's called.

The way I see it -
You are "broke" since you don't have a good job.
You are "un-patriotic", since you consider yourself to be one of "us USA computer science graduates" while at the same time you consider India to be your "mother land" (which also indicates that you are an "immigrant" yourself)
You are "self-centered" since you obviously don't realize any contradiction between your own position & your attitude towards these others.

What's so un-patriotic & self-centered about immigrant programmers, by the way ?

caborela

hk programmer about ~US$20k/yr....poor!

eznet

Yea, the state of the market of US programmers is dim currently. Outsourcing is alive and well and many of the US jobs are simply shipped overseas. I graduated with my degree in CS and have been unable to find any programming work because I lack experience. Heaven forbid you ask a seasoned programmer for some insight into the situation - when they got started, there was little outsourcing and so their answer is just about always "quit whining, suck it up and take a crappy entry level job to get some experience!" What they do not realize is that you can't even get that crappy entry level job because all the 'entry level' work is shipped out, while in house development is only done by 'senior' programmers.
I have been forced to go get my A+ certification so that i can make ends meet. Since I had a CS degree, no one wanted to hire me for tech work - seemingly my $35k degree was a waist of money because it only takes a $300 certification to get a tech job. I guess I will hone in on my programming and developer skills on the side for now and hope to build a portfolio that will attract companies to me - back to installing PCI cards for now I guess.

selevan

Yup, its hardest to earn experience at start but you need to get over it !

iyepes

It's a market rule, that business move to a place with more advantages. One of this potential advantages is lower salaries. Maybe you in US could be more successful running your own bussiness of programing, being the manager and using outsorced workers. Maybe you love coding, but probably your place is funding your own programmers firm.

Every dificult situation could have a better look.

georgeodowd

I know it's a tough battle getting a job, but what I've found is it's the less 'techy' skills that tend to be the most valuable. Employers want to see that you can work on a team, that you show up to work everyday, and that you give 110% as a rule. These are skills you can earn a reputation for having at non-programming jobs.
If you're dead set on jumping into a programming job, you might consider an internship as a way to get your foot in the door. I started out with a BA in Linguistics, got a job interning in QA at a speech software company, then got hired as a UI designer, and now I do web development. Pretty much all my technical knowledge came from on-the-job learning, but I was hired at each of my past positions because of the level of responsibility and reliability I could demonstrate.

Anyway, just my perspective...

Best of luck to you all in finding a good job!

- george

gtoroap

Well, I think that this situation could be resolved if we offer added value to our products (web design, web programming, etc.) In India, every technician are creativeless, just codify with patterns and they only follow rules. We can be more creative and we have to explore new markets too.

servoadmin

I use a HP laptop (Not Mfg in India)
I use Cisco Routers ( Not Mfg in India)
I use Nokia & SE Mobile ( Not mfg in india)
I take Coke ( Not an Indian co)
I use Dell & Intel ..... none indian.

I use all technology and I never had any complaint ..the same way companies use India for outsourcing its just like a product that is cheap nd best ..nothn to blame...

I know how to live this world and may be once outsourcing may get off india then I will not blame others..Its time to develop someother ways nd start u r living instead of blaming others...

servoadmin

I do not accept that we are not creative and there is no reason I need to justify bcos the world knows better and u r not the only one to judge...anyways chill buddy...the second thing u mentioned is really good..u can show u r creativity and try to rule the world thats the spirit...

servoadmin

Today outsourced to India nd Tomrw China ..later..it will go on...noth is stable here ...so changes is what we will see in comming yrs...

eznet

selevan wrote:

Yup, its hardest to earn experience at start but you need to get over it !

Hey buddy, nice and constructive addition to the conversation. I swear, the tact and cordiality of some of the people on FriHost amazes me. Didn't your momma ever teach you "if you don't have anything nice to day, than don't say anything at all."

gtoroap wrote:

Well, I think that this situation could be resolved if we offer added value to our products (web design, web programming, etc.) In India, every technician are creativeless, just codify with patterns and they only follow rules. We can be more creative and we have to explore new markets too.

I think that 'every' is a poor choice of wording - it is a bit of a stereotype. As is often the case with stereotypes, this is one rooted in reality, but falls far short of 100% applicable. There are creative developers in India, just not in the concentration that they are in the U.S. But, if India continues to be the hot bed of dev outsourcing, they will acquire their creativity along the way and the U.S. is going to have to fight harder than we currently are to keep our status in the tech world.

servoadmin wrote:

I do not accept that we are not creative and there is no reason I need to justify bcos the world knows better and u r not the only one to judge...anyways chill buddy...the second thing u mentioned is really good..u can show u r creativity and try to rule the world thats the spirit...

Although I do feel what gtoroap said to be a stretch, there is something to the argument - clearly, there are talented and creative programmers in India, just as there are creative developers in every country around the globe. With this said, there is some merit to the argument that there are more "code monkeys" in India than software engineers and architects. Here is an article from Forbes discussing this very thing. Again, like I said, there are creative and talented developers in India, but there are also a lot of people just churning out code to a spec instead of thinking of the design of the application. Regardless, India is definitely pulling alot of U.S. work to their developers, and although it is bad for people like me, it is fair game and is good for India, so I can't complain too much about it. It is the nature of an open market and fair competition - if India wasn't doing something right, people wouldn't be outsourcing to them... which they are, something that is proof of the good being done in Indian development.

pmehta51

With only 3 year experience it is hard to make that much money. You have to put really a lots of effort o reach that goal. Unless you are amazingly smart person, it will take atleast 5 years to reach that goal after you greduate with engineering degree.

ocean

I agree with Mr. Mehta that you have to put really a lots of effort to reach that goal. Moreover, the earlier you start working hard in your student time the better.

Silk2008

I live in Kentucky and work for a Fortune 500 company as a Systems Developement Specialist working mainly with Delphi. We're a business process outsourcing company. My division works for Humana Insurance processing claims, and new enrollments. I got hired straight from school after getting just an Associates in computer programming, and no experience. I started at 50k/year salary. Alot of our developers are based in India. Although it is true that the United States has lost alot of jobs to India, and China, the quality of code we're getting back sucks and the industry is starting to realize this. Therefore alot of those jobs are coming back, so don't lose hope. If anyone is interested I can send you a link that lists our open positions throughout the U.S.

netztonia

I love working in america being an IT person. Your creativeness and programming skill is pushed to the limits so that you can produce a quality and useful codes. A cousin of mine is living in USA and he's a programmer there.

ptolomeo

You dont have to blame overseas progrmaers. The whole system would cras without them and it is not the limiting factor for home programmers.

eznet

Clearly, overseas programmers are not the problem - the outsourcing has little to do with them and has more to do with factors within the industry here in the U.S. 1)Tightening economic conditions force companies to seek lower cost developers 2) PM's and administrators who know next to nothing about the projects they are making decisions for and only know about how to save a buck - must of them will be gone towards the end of the product life cycle and so they don't really care about the quality 3) companies want a product developed, but don't understand the scope of such an undertaking (i.e. want something big for a little money)...

There are many more factors than these, for sure, but these are just a few of the motivating factors for outsourcing. I think that likely one of the biggest causes in recent times is the current economic conditions here the the United States - money is tight, businesses are suffering and IT is often viewed as a luxury expense that is largely expendable. Many companies are becoming more focused on tightening up their IT departments, laying off those not required to support their existing systems and working on stretching their current system's capacity instead of simply developing a new one. When the economy gets better (fewer wars, new president (who doesn't put economic blinders on himself) and government investment in education and science), so too will the state of IT in America.

thetinyclam

Forget about web or application computing, anyone can do that. Thats why you get Math degree and do scientific computing!!!

raminelli

I don't work now because I am graduating in the area. I belive that I go to work with this and intend make money. Fron here Brazil you work as computer programer with salary of 1000 dollares per month.
In the area of IT there are many job vacancies, the country is in fast development.
I intend to go EUA work in this area. I holp to get what want.

Alvaro Raminelli

caa-noise

It seems to me, we have made a mistake to be a programmer. SW engineer is not respectable occupation. Others shot a lot money...