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Does Ridgid plan on implementing a blade brake in table saws anytime soon?

02-29-2012, 04:29 PM

This is my first post here and that last thing I want to do is start a religious war. I know there is a lot of heated debate when blade brakes (ie saw stop) technology comes up.

For ground rules let's not discuss:
A) Whether the feature should be mandated by the government.
B) How much the safety feature is *worth* to you (this is entirely subjective). However let's do discuss how much the safety feature *costs* a company to make, and how much it *costs* to a consumer out the door.

That being said I am an individual who would like to have this safety feature. I am also an individual who would rather not pay the saw stop price for a table saw (on the order of 2k currently). I have been making a bathroom vanity with a friend who has a ridgid table saw and I've been very impressed with the quality of the vanity we were able to create and I believe his saw was $500 retail.

In it it states that the safety feature would cost manufacturers $55 to implement. The royalties to pay to SS for the patented technology would be $16 for a saw that retailed for $250. In an article written by the PTI they stated the cost to implement would be doubled when passed on to the consumer. The royalties would simply be passed onto the consumer.

This means to me, the consumer, the cost of implementation is $110 and the cost of royalties on my friend's $500 dollar saw would be $32. This is a total of $142 of overhead for additional cost to have the brake technology on a $500 saw. If I asked any table saw owner if they could have this feature for on the order of $150 I doubt many people would decline especially if you own a nicer table saw.

The article also mentioned that "Ryobi and Emerson (who at the time made Ridgid table saws for The Home Depot) both agreed to an 8 percent royalty before they collectively decided to fight against the technology." This gave me hope that maybe the manufacturers of ridgid tools would one day decide to implement since initially they were going to.

I guess what I'm hoping to do is show some objective support for blade brake technology if the cost to consumer is what I'm stating. I'm hoping to get a lot of people saying "Yes I would love this safety feature for that amount of additional cost".

It is then my hope that the appropriate people see this thread and decide to implement a blade brake saw. I would personally like to have more choices than 1 saw maker if I want this safety feature.

If we take government mandating out of the picture and the subjective views of what the feature is "worth", can others agree that the cost of roughly $150 is "worth it"?

I don't want it, and sorry, I don't believe that low figure for adding it. You can't cut metal with it, so again, I'm out as I do from time to time rip aluminum. And leaving the government mandate out of the discussion flaws the merit of your argument in my opinion. If you want saw stop, buy a saw stop saw. I can't stand sawstop for the fact they are trying to get it mandated which only benefits them in a monopoly type of way.

Comment

Considering that the Ridgid table saws are in the competitively priced category of table saws I feel very confident in saying that there are no plans to do that, at this time. And that is my Holiday Inn Express take on that subject.

EDIT: And for Gods sakes, lock this and his other thread before we all go blind.

Sorry guys, but is this subject so disdainful that someone can't even ask a question about it? Maybe it's just that I don't know who this poster is (and perhaps hou do), but I would hope that we could at least broach the subject!

To my answer... IF I was going to buy a new Ridgid table saw, in the price range of $500, I suppose adding another $100 or so to the price to get this added "flesh-stop" feature would be of interest to me... or at least worth some serious consideration. I'd like it as an "option" though, and not just provided as a newly $650 price, because it NOW HAS! I think in all things like this, the buyer needs to be the final decision maker.

But that said, there's some serious considerations here. Like what if it does trigger, then what does it cost to get my saw back in working order? Does the brake destroy the blade, and other components as well, like the drive mechanism. There has been some mention of that and therefore it poses the question.

While I like to think that I'm the ultimate cautionary woodworker and have yet to draw blood, I know that my chances are always out there and as time goes by so does the opportunities increase (perhaps just the law of averages). I also know that I'm getting older and "sharpness" isn't getting any better. I'd hate like hell to have the determining factor of my ability to be in the shop become an issue only after I cut off a few fingers.

The other part of any consideration, is that maybe it will be one of my "then young men" grandson's that had an accident on my saw... that would be a little hard to bear, even if it were totally thier fault. Those kinds of things are well into the future, but I'd prefer not to think that a purchase decision that I made, was part of such an accident. (I think I'd have to look back and tearfully think, "If only I had spent that extra $150!!!)

Personally, this whole "Saw Stop" thing is dis-tasteful to me, especially as how it was handled in the court case against Ryobi. I find it really astounding that Ryobi couldn't mount a better defense, and to me this whole affair was Legal "railroading" at its worst.

Comment

CWS, its about 75 bucks for the cartridge replacement and about 30 min to change it. It also destroys the blade. I would think the shaft on these smaller saws would need to be upgraded to handle a stop like that.

Comment

This subject has been discussed, debated, argued about and generally beaten to death on virtually every legititmate woodworking forum out there. Nothing new will be discovered nor debated here that hasn't already been done repeatedly elsewhere. I mean no disrespect to the OP but the SawStop - Good or Bad has been over exposed almost as much as the Harbor Freight 2 HP Dust Collector - Good or Bad? For the Plumbers.......... Fixed Rate or Hourly - Which Is Better?

I decided to change calling the bathroom the "John" and renamed it the "Jim". I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.

That is the kind of thing that comes out in a good discussion. I'm of the same thought as you on this subject I think.

I've read several reports on this "Ryobi" accident case and there is nothing about it that sounds right to me. I can only guess the lengths that the prosecution went through to find jurors that didn't have a clue as to the standard safety features that are currently on table saws or the fact that all of these had been removed by the contractor/owner and that no training or supervision was given to the clueless victim. But to have this kind of thing faulted completely on the manufacturer was without logic or even legal merit, from my point of view. As an experienced "technical publication's writer and illustrator, I know well the responsibility that companies like Ryobi must take to warn the buyer of the "pitfalls". I own two Ryobi table saws and even with experience I, as a purchaser, must take the time to read and be familier with the equipment.

I am of the opinion that "SawStop" (I forget the inventor/owner's name) is "grandstanding" here and it should be obvious to everyone that he has seized the opportunity to leverage his product by his "expert" testimony in this case. That of course is a direct "conflict of interest" and the whole case should have been thrown out.

However, the technology does have a significant safety advantage in light of the number of accidents that we see (but I think they are far less than the numbers I have seen quoted). But then, there's no "number" regarding the safety of the existing safeguards and the number of accident-free sawcuts that are made every single day. Neither is there a price given on the restoration of the SawStop after it triggers (that needs to be added to the cost of a new saw too) and what does that do to the lower end of the business?

My two Ryobi saws are perfectly safe (BT3100-1 and BTS-21 portable) and perform to my satisfaction, as long as I KNOW what I'm doing. All saws below $500 would quickly disappear I think; and that would lead to too many home users or lower income people, screwing their handheld circular saws to a piece of plywood, flipping them upside down and trying to feed the stock freehand through them.... NOW, would the inforcement of "SawStop" technology want to step up and take the blame for all those accidents. Safety must be affordable, or it backfires!

Comment

I see no problem with discussing this technology on this forum. Almost all discussions on other forums become nasty and eventually are locked.

A few comments on the OP's post. It is hard to believe that the cost to the consumer will be $150. As Alphacowboy pointed out, the replacement break retails for $80. It is hard to believe that will be reduced. Also, there is the cost of redesigning the saw to accommodate the flesh sensing hardware and break system. With the design change will changes in the manufacturing of the saw. I'm sure it isn't cheap to retool a plant. Let's say it was available on a saw for $650. Well, you have to buy another (spare) break cartridge ($80), and a break cartridge for a dado blade ($75 I think). Also need to make sure you have a spare blade - the old one will be toast if the break triggers.

I don't want it, and sorry, I don't believe that low figure for adding it. You can't cut metal with it, so again, I'm out as I do from time to time rip aluminum. And leaving the government mandate out of the discussion flaws the merit of your argument in my opinion. If you want saw stop, buy a saw stop saw. I can't stand sawstop for the fact they are trying to get it mandated which only benefits them in a monopoly type of way.

I agree, but want to comment on a couple of points. First, you can cut aluminum (or treated wood, or wet wood or anything else that triggers the break) - just turn off the breaking mechanism.

Also in a later post (I really need to learn how to do multiple quotes some day) you say it takes 30 minutes to change out a blade after being stopped. I've seen it done in about 90 seconds.

I do not know of any R&D on other kinds of stops, yes the simplest may be just to throw some thing into the blade to stop it, but If I was a saw company I would be working on my own brake systems,, some Ideas I have are some type of disk brake, a unit that allows the blade to drop instantly below the surface, Methods that are non destructible to the saw or cost to reset, and if you are forced to come up with a saw stop saw, you are not paying royalties to some guy pushing to line his pockets. Even if you do come up with a system and it works well, I may consider it, first I do not like the destruction of saw and or parts, Would love to have it for a saw that I would use to teach my grand kids with.
but I do not think I would buy a "saw by the current manufacture or with the technology"

Come up with a better mouse trap. Is all I am saying,

Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
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I do not know of any R&D on other kinds of stops, yes the simplest may be just to throw some thing into the blade to stop it, but If I was a saw company I would be working on my own brake systems,, some Ideas I have are some type of disk brake, a unit that allows the blade to drop instantly below the surface, Methods that are non destructible to the saw or cost to reset, and if you are forced to come up with a saw stop saw, you are not paying royalties to some guy pushing to line his pockets. Even if you do come up with a system and it works well, I may consider it, first I do not like the destruction of saw and or parts, Would love to have it for a saw that I would use to teach my grand kids with.
but I do not think I would buy a "saw by the current manufacture or with the technology"

Come up with a better mouse trap. Is all I am saying,

Steve Gass probably already has the patent to it.

I sometimes wonder if companies are leary of developing a safer saw in fear of it's failure rate. What I mean is, if I can make a saw that will stop/lower the blade when I touch it, but it only works 9,999 times out of 10,000 does that leave me open to huge liabilty that one time?

From my own experience as a writer and illustrator of technical manuals, a company is open to liability at any time... regardless of the steps they take. Just look at the current safety guards on a table saw... they are there, supplied with the original saw... and all the instructions are there to point out their safe use and the dangers of when they are NOT used! Yet here was this case when those safety guards were removed, no one read the instructions, and the owner/boss gave no instructions or supervision to the guy who got hurt.....YET, the manufacturer of the saw and NOT the owner/boss was found liabel for that!!!

Just another case of the guy with the deepest pockets being the one who will be found guilty!

I do not know of any R&D on other kinds of stops, yes the simplest may be just to throw some thing into the blade to stop it, but If I was a saw company I would be working on my own brake systems,, some Ideas I have are some type of disk brake, a unit that allows the blade to drop instantly below the surface, Methods that are non destructible to the saw or cost to reset, and if you are forced to come up with a saw stop saw, you are not paying royalties to some guy pushing to line his pockets. Even if you do come up with a system and it works well, I may consider it, first I do not like the destruction of saw and or parts, Would love to have it for a saw that I would use to teach my grand kids with.
but I do not think I would buy a "saw by the current manufacture or with the technology"

Come up with a better mouse trap. Is all I am saying,

I agree wholeheartedly with BHD.

I am against anything that puts money in the pockets of Mr. Gass because I
don't like the way he has tried to force his invention on the industry.

As I've said before, I'm not against making saws safer. I think BHD's idea of a
disc brake type clamping device is a good one that could be made just as effective
and cost less to implement as well as having reduced costs to put the saw back in
service following a trip.

I do not belileve the SS device could be implemented on current saws for ~$150 total,
I think the cost of re-engineering other parts of the saw to accomodate the SS would
drive the manufacturing cost up.