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Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

Once again I say, I would pay money to listen to Jalen talk about basketball. Every time he tells a story from his playing days I'm absolutely captivated. I'm not kidding. I'm the same way with Bird. I bet I've listened to that BS Report with Simmons and Bird 50 times and I'll listen to this that many times too.

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Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

I was an absolute born again die hard Larry Brown believer. In fact until he came to the Indiana Pacers my opinion on coaching in the NBA was that it didn't matter. It was a players league and whoever was the coach was really more just for show.

Larry Brown changed my entire outlook on that and frankly the game of basketball in general. Playing the right way was a slogan to be certain but in listening to Reggie and other players who have played for him it went well beyond that it was driven everyday in them at practice and he held every single player accountable. In fact one of the great lines of Reggie Miller's book "I love being the enemy" was a part he wrote "Larry Brown called me a ***** today". If you weren't giving what Larry thought you could or should give then he would be in your ear no matter who you were.

Jay has his memory's of that season & I won't dispute them but what he is neglecting to remind everybody of is the now infamous Popeye speech from Derrick McKey that did as much damage if not more damage to the team that year as almost anything.

Now I'm not by any measure saying that Brown was not at fault or even mostly at fault for that season (I don't really believe it myself) but when Jalen say's they went back the next year with the exact same team he is forgetting that for the most part of that season Rik Smits was out and he was back the following season.

In fact I always go so far as to say that I believe that Larry Browns tenure was so important to our franchise that his teachings lasted for the next 3-4 seasons. Larry Bird did not turn Rik Smits into an effective player, Larry Brown did. In fact it was Brown that told all of us we needed to climb off of Smits back and understand that he wasn't going to be a 10-12 rpg player but he could be a mid range weapon. It worked.

Now as time has gone on and I've reviewed his tenures at every team he has been with since he left here I have determined that he is a coaching Diva and frankly has become a sad caricature of himself. His X's & O's are solid but ultimately coaching is more than that.

That is why I am now a Frank Vogel devotee. I truly believe that we have a special coach on our hands even if at times his rotations make me want to bite nails.

As to Jalen, well all I can say is that yes he did score 40 points that day, thanks to Reggie Miller. Reggie stopped shooting and they did everything in their power to make certain that he scored his 40th point that day and when he was at the free throw line shooting his last free throws the noise echoing in his ear has haunted him to this day. Instead of cheering him hitting 40 the crowd bursts into a chant of REGGIE REGGIE REGGIE. He later complained to WTHR in the locker room that it was the biggest game of his life and all the crowd wanted to do was cheer for someone else. Bitter is the pill to swallow living in the shadow.

As to Uncle Buck's quote about Jalen and Larry Brown, that was to me. I was sitting right behind the Pacers bench and Jalen had already gotten a few DNP's that season and I yelled to Larry "Play Jalen" and he turned right around and looked at me and said "who's he going to guard". Little did I know that Larry actually knew what he was talking about. As Beast said Jalen could guard any of three positions when he wanted to, but his dedication to defense was as rare as Haley's comet.

Again Brown was no peach but you should go listen to other story's by Jalen, in particular I invite you to listen to his story about a fight between player Carter & Coach Mitchell and you can see that while Jalen is entertaining he would be a person who you would probably want to kill in a locker room.

Oh also they might ask him sometime how it went for him when the demand was either Jalen Rose or Jermaine O'Neal and who won out there. While they are there they might as well ask him how he enjoyed his all star games.

Yea as you can tell I really soured on Jalen.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

Oh don't get me wrong. I loved Brown's first three seasons. But to me he undid all of his good works in the fourth season. Bo Hill was better than a 39-43 coach, with a less talented roster. Brownie left them in worse shape than when he started.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

I can't comment on the season that apparently can't be mentioned (I was only 8 at the time), but I did have quite a few encounters with Larry Brown. My mom worked in an office across the street from MSA (I spent a lot of time there after school and weekends), and we'd frequently see him in the market. He was always VERY friendly, always called us by name, and always chatted us up. To the point where, in retrospect, I almost wonder if Larry Brown was hitting on my mom. Take it for whatever its worth.

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Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

Sounds like an awful lot of asshurtions being made by a guy who believed he should run the show, and who really needs the attention to remain a viable TV personality at this point in his life.

I was happy that we turned Jalen and Travis into Brad Miller, Artest, and filler, even back at the time of the trade. It was a huge upgrade in talent and killer instinct, and grit and hustle over guys who preferred to operate outside the team concept. Despite everything that ended up happening later (refusing to pay Brad and getting Scot "I get paid millions of dollars to suck" Pollard, and the entire bad Ron-Ron), I still like the trade.

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

To understand the Popeye speech you must first understand how significant our injury problem was that season. Rik Smits who was our starting center missed a significant chunk of the season, Haywood Workman who was scheduled to be our starting point guard shredded his knee and only played 4 games. This left Eric Dampier a rookie and Travis Best a seldom used second year point guard starting for a large chunk of games.

Needless to say early in the season we were having trouble scoring because basically Reggie Miller was our only true offensive threat in the starting unit.

Larry Brown went to both Derrick McKey & Dale Davis and asked each of them to step outside of their normal game and attempt to provide more offense.

Now this is where people will have some disagreement with Larry Brown but the reason we know he did this? Simple he told the local press that he went to them. He told them this during a non game day where they were having either a shoot around or practice. Back in the day WTHR actually did a pretty good job of covering the Pacers and when the players were available for comment they went to both Dale & Derrick to ask each of them about this and how they intended to help the team.

The first interview they showed was Dale and somewhere between 100 "you know" & 50 "uh's" we got the message that Dale would do whatever was asked of him and had already been working with the assistants on his offensive game.

Then they went to McKey. It's been so long now I can not tell you word for word what he said but the gist of it was that he was the player he was and he couldn't be anything else and he would not be changing his game. He ended the interview by saying "I am what I am". Forevermore to be known as the Popeye speech because of how very similar it is to Popeye's "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam".

Like I said above I don't doubt that the season was shot by Brown but when you look at the circumstances that team was going to struggle no matter what. BTW, McKey as he was want to do, came to camp out of shape and he ended up missing as many games as Rik did that season.

Sadly the Dale Davis as an offensive weapon experiment ended with the same results that General Custer met with at Little Big Horn, but God love him he tried.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

I can't comment on the season that apparently can't be mentioned (I was only 8 at the time), but I did have quite a few encounters with Larry Brown. My mom worked in an office across the street from MSA (I spent a lot of time there after school and weekends), and we'd frequently see him in the market. He was always VERY friendly, always called us by name, and always chatted us up. To the point where, in retrospect, I almost wonder if Larry Brown was hitting on my mom. Take it for whatever its worth.

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

Oh don't get me wrong. I loved Brown's first three seasons. But to me he undid all of his good works in the fourth season. Bo Hill was better than a 39-43 coach, with a less talented roster. Brownie left them in worse shape than when he started.

If Brown left them in worse shape than when he started then how come the team won 58 games and was what many beliueve was the best Pacers team in history in the year after Brown left.

I understand what you are suggesting, but I just don't agree. In fact the team probably wanted to show Brown they were still good and that helped in 1998.

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

BTW, McKey as he was want to do, came to camp out of shape and he ended up missing as many games as Rik did that season.

McKey out of shape? I don't recall that being the case. I do recall it coming out a few years later that Derrick had one leg longer than the otrher and that was the primary reason he started having so many injuries as he did. Was he in the best shape, I don't know, but he certainly never gained any weight. His body wasn't made to be a longterm NBA player.

I will stick by more assertion that Mckey was the Pacers MVP in 1994 and 1995. (Phile jackson said the same thing) Many will disucss him being a reluctant scorer, OK, fine, but he was a great passer, extremly smart, knew how to run any offense that the coach wanted. I just never thought he was as talented of a scorer as many seemed to.

Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale Davis, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen. But in many ways I think Mckey was probably the best. He was the best combination of one-on-one and team defender I have ever seen - maybe only Scottie Pippen was better. Artest was great one-on-one but his team defense was inconsistant.

I always said that Mckey guarded 1 and a half players and when Rose was on the floor mcKey guarded two players. Mckey guarded his own man extrmely well, and yet was a great team defender and usually had to help on Jalen's man a lot.

Game 5 against the Bucks in 2000, McKey was playing on one leg, but his defense in that fourth quarter was amazing. I went back and re-watched the 4th quarter some years later and I focused just on Mckey's defense. He had to help so often pon Jalen's man, and yet Derrick had 7 deflections - 3 turned into steals, although he didn't get credit because his delfeciton went to someone else.

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

McKey out of shape? I don't recall that being the case. I do recall it coming out a few years later that Derrick had one leg longer than the otrher and that was the primary reason he started having so many injuries as he did. Was he in the best shape, I don't know, but he certainly never gained any weight. His body wasn't made to be a longterm NBA player.

I will stick by more assertion that Mckey was the Pacers MVP in 1994 and 1995. (Phile jackson said the same thing) Many will disucss him being a reluctant scorer, OK, fine, but he was a great passer, extremly smart, knew how to run any offense that the coach wanted. I just never thought he was as talented of a scorer as many seemed to.

Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale David, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen. But in many ways I think Mckey was probably the best. He was the best combination of one-on-one and team defender I have ever seen - maybe only Scottie Pippen was better. Artest was great one-on-one but his team defense was inconsistant.

I always said that Mckey guarded 1 and a half players and when Rose was on the floor mcKey guarded two players. Mckey guarded his own man extrmely well, and yet was a great team defender and usually had to help on Jalen's man a lot.

Game 5 against the Bucks in 2000, McKey was playing on one leg, but his defense in that fourth quarter was amazing. I went back and re-watched the 4th quarter some years later and I focused just on Mckey's defense. He had to help so often pon Jalen's man, and yet Derrick had 7 deflections - 3 turned into steals, although he didn't get credit because his delfeciton went to someone else.

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale David, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen.

Peck!!! Peck!!!! Blaspheme! That was on purpose!

I will say this about Brown/Rose... as an IU guy during the Fab 5 era, I loathed Jalen coming out and was indifferent at best with the idea of him on our team. However, I do recall vividly that the season-long raw deal he got from Coach turned me (and a number of my friends who had felt the same way) into big supporters of Jalen. Over the years, I drifted back to indifference.

"I mean, you'd walk into our dressing room and run into Mel Daniels holding a .45 -- it makes you wonder."

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

The team never makes the Finals without the rise of Jalen. Of course you can say they don't make it without Reggie or Dale either, but Reggie and Dale were basically the same players that they had been in previous years. It was the rapid emergence of Jalen as a legit scoring threat alongside Reggie that propelled the team into the Finals. Shaq had Kobe. Jordan had Pip. But prior to 2000, Reggie really never had a guy alongside him who could be counted out for 20 PPG in a playoff series, with the exception of Smits in 1995 (torched Ewing). If Reggie was cold in a playoff game, then there really wasn't anyone else who could step up and pour in 20 points until Jalen grew.

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

With two obvious exceptions in different venues - Bob Knight and Bill Cowher - I agree with this. Which is why what he did during that last season was so infuriating.

= = = = = = = = = = = =

The roster was better, but the team was in shambles, confidence destroyed, from the outside it seemed to have two camps - the vets we loved but were losing their command of the Eastern Conference and the young guns that Brown refused to invest in. And Dale Davis probably could be put in either of those two camps.

The roster was good, sure. And Bird did the exact right thing by writing "58" (or was it "56" - either way it was quite bold for a 39-win team in disarray) on the chalkboard and calmly restoring their confidence. Bird knows basketball, and he knows basketball players. I still don't think any other coach could've gotten them back to the ECFs so quickly, and I was not a big fan of Larry Bird. But you can't argue with his results.

And the roster improved, too. Mullin was a huge upgrade over anything you want to desribe that trade to be. Dampier and Ferrell. Hell yeah. Moving McKey to the bench. Hell yeah. Croshere didn't do much as a rookie with a broken hand but played a key role in the next few seasons. Jalen was reclaimed from the dead and was a budding star, and they had Mark Jackson for a full season. The coach wasn't an upgrade, just a much needed change and a positive voice instead of the one that had been beating them down while propping himself up.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

McKey out of shape? I don't recall that being the case. I do recall it coming out a few years later that Derrick had one leg longer than the otrher and that was the primary reason he started having so many injuries as he did. Was he in the best shape, I don't know, but he certainly never gained any weight. His body wasn't made to be a longterm NBA player.

I will stick by more assertion that Mckey was the Pacers MVP in 1994 and 1995. (Phile jackson said the same thing) Many will disucss him being a reluctant scorer, OK, fine, but he was a great passer, extremly smart, knew how to run any offense that the coach wanted. I just never thought he was as talented of a scorer as many seemed to.

Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale Davis, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen. But in many ways I think Mckey was probably the best. He was the best combination of one-on-one and team defender I have ever seen - maybe only Scottie Pippen was better. Artest was great one-on-one but his team defense was inconsistant.

I always said that Mckey guarded 1 and a half players and when Rose was on the floor mcKey guarded two players. Mckey guarded his own man extrmely well, and yet was a great team defender and usually had to help on Jalen's man a lot.

Game 5 against the Bucks in 2000, McKey was playing on one leg, but his defense in that fourth quarter was amazing. I went back and re-watched the 4th quarter some years later and I focused just on Mckey's defense. He had to help so often pon Jalen's man, and yet Derrick had 7 deflections - 3 turned into steals, although he didn't get credit because his delfeciton went to someone else.

Dude, c'mon...

McKey was routinely out of shape when he would report for camp. No he didn't look like Oliver Miller but he wasn't in basketball shape.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

McKey was routinely out of shape when he would report for camp. No he didn't look like Oliver Miller but he wasn't in basketball shape.

I can't really argue with you, except to say I don't remember that. Would you say he just wasn't in basktball shape? or that he wasn't in shape at all. He always did strike me as a guy who probably didn't work on his game a lot in the summer. Or would he have gotten worse time than Harirson in Jack Ramsey first day of training camp long distance run. I want to say it was 5 miles but it couldn't have been that. Was it 2 or 3?

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

McKey was routinely out of shape when he would report for camp. No he didn't look like Oliver Miller but he wasn't in basketball shape.

Agree completely. How many seasons started with him on the IR with a pulled hamstring? Most of them.

I liked Derrick. But he was a slooooowwww starter just about every year.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

I love Jalen. Always have, always will.

I also was always a huge fan of Heavy D. Not until this thread have I seen so many people speak ill of him. I was a kid (born in 83) for most of Derrick's time with us, but I only have fond memories of his game. He was the player that made me appreciate defense at an early age.

Re: Intersting story from Jalen Rose

McKey out of shape? I don't recall that being the case. I do recall it coming out a few years later that Derrick had one leg longer than the otrher and that was the primary reason he started having so many injuries as he did. Was he in the best shape, I don't know, but he certainly never gained any weight. His body wasn't made to be a longterm NBA player.

I will stick by more assertion that Mckey was the Pacers MVP in 1994 and 1995. (Phile jackson said the same thing) Many will disucss him being a reluctant scorer, OK, fine, but he was a great passer, extremly smart, knew how to run any offense that the coach wanted. I just never thought he was as talented of a scorer as many seemed to.

Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale Davis, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen. But in many ways I think Mckey was probably the best. He was the best combination of one-on-one and team defender I have ever seen - maybe only Scottie Pippen was better. Artest was great one-on-one but his team defense was inconsistant.

I always said that Mckey guarded 1 and a half players and when Rose was on the floor mcKey guarded two players. Mckey guarded his own man extrmely well, and yet was a great team defender and usually had to help on Jalen's man a lot.

Game 5 against the Bucks in 2000, McKey was playing on one leg, but his defense in that fourth quarter was amazing. I went back and re-watched the 4th quarter some years later and I focused just on Mckey's defense. He had to help so often pon Jalen's man, and yet Derrick had 7 deflections - 3 turned into steals, although he didn't get credit because his delfeciton went to someone else.

Mckey was the single most important player acquisition in the 90's. Most fans will say Mark Jackson or Jalen Rose but even after McKey was having serious injury issues he was the guy helping close games 3, 4 & 6 against the Bulls in 98 while those two were on the bench because they couldn't defend anyone or be trusted to get the ball into the front court when on offense.

We never make the ECF if that trade isn't made and Schrempf stays in Indy.

I will also forever fondly remember McKey handing Pippen the ball in the final seconds of game 4 of the 98 ECF and asking him if he delivered on Sundays.