I'd rather see them immune to DM (which is the primary reason they're not used) if we're going that route... maybe they need to be turned into DD style spells that cast each round, this would also deal with the craptacular nature of the specialty bows to some extent.

I'd see Haste and GS as a DD spell Casting and stacking every round, on a single minion wearing a weapon, from range to the end of melee rounds. Making it better for every rounds your tank survive and giving some great new strats possibilities for melee tanks, wich is laking these days.

AS is nice, but way too powerful combined with a familiar.
GA was rubbish, but the damage nerf kicked this back in
GS/Haste who uses that?
VA, lol (should be a skill anyway call it vampire bite or something)

the real problem is that the dependence on ED's and its quick and easy counter to it.

AS is best when only train 1, with a wall somewhere training natural HP. NO mix of DM+damage can quickly kill that setup, and without DM, your AS just do stupid things like doubling your HP for your XP investment.

I love those spells and use most of them. Yes, I would like to see them a bit stronger. But, I like things that make more strats possible.
I like the idea of making EC the counter to true strength and DX and dispel the counter to GS and Haste. There are tank teams, it just difficult to compete with the mage teams at times. I think Jon does a good job trying to balance things.

or just have GS and haste give 100% STR/DX respectively. With 1 tank, you prefer to train naturally instead because of the extra vulerability to DM as well as EC. With multi-tank, 2 of 3 EO hoses you, I think that it is still have enough of a counter. Backed by ROS? probably still bad because you split your NW in 4+ weapons. However, might be a little too good with Unarm and ROS.

"AS is best when only train 1, with a wall somewhere training natural HP. NO mix of DM+damage can quickly kill that setup, and without DM, your AS just do stupid things like doubling your HP for your XP investment."

So basically AS is best used when it's too small to make a difference when DMed because of trained, but big enough to make a huge difference by doubling your HP. So it just need to be very large and very small simultaneously. That's why it's broken.

there is a point where it is big enough to make a difference against non-DM teams by surviving extra rounds (where training HP won't be enough), but not being reliant on it enough so that DM team will wreck you. DM teams have very little damage, so it can never kill you fast enough.

"So basically AS is best used when it's too small to make a difference when DMed because of trained, but big enough to make a huge difference by doubling your HP. So it just need to be very large and very small simultaneously. That's why it's broken. "

it is big enough to make a difference to non-DM team, and small enough so that DM team can't wreck you. It is not flawed logic. You can say a meal is too big too feed a human, and too small to feed an elephant.

just to prove my point, I can beat non-ED team at my MPR with just fireball, and beat 4x ED team without ROS at my MPR, but can't beat a 5 minion team with 1 training AS and a natural wall with either setup.

Also note you're using a wet noodle, and RoBF isn't so good against a team with 5 kill slots (with a wall involved). Maybe that has a small contribution.

I hate this argument that AS is overpowered at all. GA might need some rescaling if anything, but AS has many issues. First of all, although you do get an HP boost, the more minions you have the more HP you waste on kill slots and whatnot. At the bare least, you are wasting 25% of your effect on the AS caster in a 4 minion team. Considering it has no AC or Evasion, it's a pretty large waste (better luck training HP on a wall).

Also we can always point at DM, and this argument that one can train AS at a level that's both an effective boost but not a big enough investment against DM teams is just bizarre (extra medium?). First of all, if this is true, it wouldn't show how broken AS is if it required delicate planning, and has a strong chance of not being used at all.

But it isn't true, such a setup shows no evidence that it would be able to target people abnormally high. Nor is it a good idea, with a 4 minion setup the damage dealer probably needs HP to survive backlash, familiars only have the option of AS (and only get small percentage of the effect). An extra medium AS would put you on better grounds against a DM teams I admit, but it wouldn't make a give a big enough advantage against non DM teams. It'll just be an unnecessary bell and whistle on a strat.

Also note you're using a wet noodle, and RoBF isn't so good against a team with 5 kill slots (with a wall involved). Maybe that has a small contribution.
-I will concede this point that my strat is bad against 5 minion teams. The other points I will address as they come up.

I hate this argument that AS is overpowered at all. GA might need some rescaling if anything, but AS has many issues. First of all, although you do get an HP boost, the more minions you have the more HP you waste on kill slots and whatnot. At the bare least, you are wasting 25% of your effect on the AS caster in a 4 minion team. Considering it has no AC or Evasion, it's a pretty large waste (better luck training HP on a wall).
-this HP is as good as any against spread damage. I don't personally have experience with non-spread damage, but I assume that if it survive 1 extra round (2 total), it is worth it (aka not wasted). And there is not 25% wasted in a 4 minion team. you get 36.25% of your AS on each minion, that totals to more than 100%. With 5 minion, the benefit is even greater. Even with 25% of HP "wasted", your total HP is still greater than training HP, and reallocate some HP for more XP concentration.
-P.S. there is always ways you can make that AS grant HP on the minion by playing around with PL, but I think the rest of my suggestion above is enough to show that the HP is not wasted. This point is used as a parallel argument that help strengthen my point, not to prove something on its own.

Also we can always point at DM, and this argument that one can train AS at a level that's both an effective boost but not a big enough investment against DM teams is just bizarre (extra medium?). First of all, if this is true, it wouldn't show how broken AS is if it required delicate planning, and has a strong chance of not being used at all.
-The problem is that training a wall, a mage with some HP, and a AS minion would usually be that "extra medium" level of AS.

But it isn't true, such a setup shows no evidence that it would be able to target people abnormally high.
-I will concede this point as I have not checked to see how far high do such team get, but I believe this strat offers almost total immunity against anyone slightly smaller. It makes it very difficult to farm and is useful for clans. I would like a counter-argument showing that it is in fact not a good idea, as you suggested below.

(continue) Nor is it a good idea, with a 4 minion setup the damage dealer probably needs HP to survive backlash, familiars only have the option of AS (and only get small percentage of the effect). An extra medium AS would put you on better grounds against a DM teams I admit, but it wouldn't make a give a big enough advantage against non DM teams. It'll just be an unnecessary bell and whistle on a strat.
-Against non-DM team, you have more HP than you would have training HP, I think having extra 68.75% HP then they would have is an advantage. (5 minion AS give a total of 168.75% effectiveness)

This thread is closed to new posts.
However, you are welcome to reference it
from a new thread; link this with the html
<a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002atd">Haste/Giant Strength</a>