Do Government and Utility Rebate Programs Help or Hurt? - Home Energy Pros2015-08-02T21:02:29Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/do-government-and-utility-rebate-programs-help-or-hurt?commentId=6069565%3AComment%3A88558&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThis is the kind of thinking…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-06:6069565:Comment:884742012-07-06T13:34:43.951ZPatrick Michaelyanhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/PatrickMichaelyan
<p>This is the kind of thinking I too believe is the right way forward. But, it involves large swings in thinking, so I remain cautiously optimistic that such a shift will happen.</p>
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<p>In the meantime, if there is anything I can do to hasten the shift then let me know what I need to add to my plate.</p>
<p>This is the kind of thinking I too believe is the right way forward. But, it involves large swings in thinking, so I remain cautiously optimistic that such a shift will happen.</p>
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<p>In the meantime, if there is anything I can do to hasten the shift then let me know what I need to add to my plate.</p> In my opinion, the public's i…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-06:6069565:Comment:883712012-07-06T13:18:55.888ZJames H. Busharthttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JamesHBushart
<p>In my opinion, the public's interest in energy efficiency will change, exponentially, when they can no longer purchase their energy from their provider on credit. Prepaid electrical service will force them to calculate their needs in advance and when they run out of "electricity credits" and have to buy more to get the lights back on ... they will have a new and fresh appreciation for efficiency.</p>
<p>In this regard, the utility company will do much to reduce energy consumption and will…</p>
<p>In my opinion, the public's interest in energy efficiency will change, exponentially, when they can no longer purchase their energy from their provider on credit. Prepaid electrical service will force them to calculate their needs in advance and when they run out of "electricity credits" and have to buy more to get the lights back on ... they will have a new and fresh appreciation for efficiency.</p>
<p>In this regard, the utility company will do much to reduce energy consumption and will appreciate a bigger profit from less use since virtually all of their customers will be paying all of their bills.</p> James, in at least a few case…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-06:6069565:Comment:886452012-07-06T13:09:09.787ZPatrick Michaelyanhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/PatrickMichaelyan
<p>James, in at least a few cases, you are correct that utilities pay you to pay themselves, but there are progressive utilities that have reduced, and continue to reduce base load and peak load through rebate programs (that make economic sense).</p>
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<p>In the D.C. Metro region, there is a real need to update the grid and add generation on a wholesale level. This will cost ratepayers dearly. The work my company does is completely un-subsidized, and we can quantify our load reductions on…</p>
<p>James, in at least a few cases, you are correct that utilities pay you to pay themselves, but there are progressive utilities that have reduced, and continue to reduce base load and peak load through rebate programs (that make economic sense).</p>
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<p>In the D.C. Metro region, there is a real need to update the grid and add generation on a wholesale level. This will cost ratepayers dearly. The work my company does is completely un-subsidized, and we can quantify our load reductions on a house-by-house basis. Our clients have moved to tighten up their houses, beef up insulation, upgrade to high-efficiency HVAC, switch to LEDs, etc.</p>
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<p>I can only defend that which I have researched and have seen the results of, and therefore I will defend the need to reduce load and stave off large-scale improvements to the grid and addition of generation capacity. I have clients who just cannot afford to pay more for energy, and I will do all in my power to keep their utility costs as low as their budgets can afford. But, when folks poo-poo the efficiency stuff and continue to consume energy like it's an all-you-can-eat buffet, I cannot help but feel that some regulation of such end-users is required. </p>
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<p>Just my take on it.</p> Patrick ... Consider, if you…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-05:6069565:Comment:885582012-07-05T20:48:01.924ZJames H. Busharthttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JamesHBushart
<p>Patrick ... Consider, if you will, your "defense" of utility companies as they overcharge their customers and set aside the funds that they acquire to pay those who make purchases of items that use more of their energy resource. Isn't the customer who is paid $50 by the gas company to replace his electric water heater with a gas water heater paid from money that came from an electric company customer? Is this not a form of re-distribution that does little for saving energy but goes a long…</p>
<p>Patrick ... Consider, if you will, your "defense" of utility companies as they overcharge their customers and set aside the funds that they acquire to pay those who make purchases of items that use more of their energy resource. Isn't the customer who is paid $50 by the gas company to replace his electric water heater with a gas water heater paid from money that came from an electric company customer? Is this not a form of re-distribution that does little for saving energy but goes a long way in helping the utility increase profit?</p> Hi Patrick,
I am not hostile…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-02:6069565:Comment:881832012-07-02T10:37:30.764ZLinda jeffershttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Lindajeffers
<p>Hi Patrick,</p>
<p>I am not hostile at all, simply honest. If the HP industry is to succeed, it needs to move beyond being a welfare recipient.</p>
<p>Fist, we need to call a spade a spade or in this case a socialist. How do we grow by lying to ourselves?</p>
<p>I support those who are attempting to move the industry off welfare and make it sustainable.</p>
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<p>Hi Patrick,</p>
<p>I am not hostile at all, simply honest. If the HP industry is to succeed, it needs to move beyond being a welfare recipient.</p>
<p>Fist, we need to call a spade a spade or in this case a socialist. How do we grow by lying to ourselves?</p>
<p>I support those who are attempting to move the industry off welfare and make it sustainable.</p>
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<p></p> Well, Tom...What do you call…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-02:6069565:Comment:879822012-07-02T01:29:24.361ZJohn Redmondhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JohnRedmond
<p>Well, Tom...What do you call taking the fruits of one man's labor and giving it to another under the guise of making things equal or "fair". If you need a copy of the Communist Manifesto, I can surely mail one out to you.</p>
<p>You telling us you disagree doesn't muster here. Break the argument and tell us how these programs are NOT socialist in nature.</p>
<p><br></br>You know, I am really looking forward to the day when all of this federal money dries up, because it will be those like Linda…</p>
<p>Well, Tom...What do you call taking the fruits of one man's labor and giving it to another under the guise of making things equal or "fair". If you need a copy of the Communist Manifesto, I can surely mail one out to you.</p>
<p>You telling us you disagree doesn't muster here. Break the argument and tell us how these programs are NOT socialist in nature.</p>
<p><br/>You know, I am really looking forward to the day when all of this federal money dries up, because it will be those like Linda and myself, who have acted purely as independent entrepreneurs through this whole process, who will be the only ones left standing. Gotta love less competition!!!</p> Hi Tom,
It sounds like we ag…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-02:6069565:Comment:882522012-07-02T01:20:12.502ZLinda jeffershttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/Lindajeffers
<p>Hi Tom,</p>
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<p>It sounds like we agree, incentives distort markets("hasten shifts"). </p>
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<p>Don't you think, after all this time, the HP guys could grow up and act like real businesses?</p>
<p>Do you feel HP folks deserve welfare and charity? Has the welfare system been helpful or incapacitating?</p>
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<p>Calling the HP "industry" socialistic is not name calling but simply correctly identifying the structure of the process. It is however a very inefficient way to…</p>
<p>Hi Tom,</p>
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<p>It sounds like we agree, incentives distort markets("hasten shifts"). </p>
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<p>Don't you think, after all this time, the HP guys could grow up and act like real businesses?</p>
<p>Do you feel HP folks deserve welfare and charity? Has the welfare system been helpful or incapacitating?</p>
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<p>Calling the HP "industry" socialistic is not name calling but simply correctly identifying the structure of the process. It is however a very inefficient way to allocate resources and this can be seen over and over in the programs you promote. But, It is what it is. </p>
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<p></p> John, I'm not here to argue,…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-06-19:6069565:Comment:872952012-06-19T14:38:11.895ZPatrick Michaelyanhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/PatrickMichaelyan
John, I'm not here to argue, but I am here to support good men and women engaged in an industry that is sorely needed in the future.<br></br>
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I have been in this industry for more than 3 years now, and have run a business for over 2 years. I began my career in HP with a custom builder, and continue to work with builders. What I have witnessed has been very clear: We build and renovate buildings today with a focus to the bottom line, and as a result the buildings suffer. I grew up in Boston…
John, I'm not here to argue, but I am here to support good men and women engaged in an industry that is sorely needed in the future.<br/>
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I have been in this industry for more than 3 years now, and have run a business for over 2 years. I began my career in HP with a custom builder, and continue to work with builders. What I have witnessed has been very clear: We build and renovate buildings today with a focus to the bottom line, and as a result the buildings suffer. I grew up in Boston where you have many very old houses that will stand for many more decades, and these houses were built by craftsmen and women. They were built during a time where fuel was cheap, people didn't use a lot of energy (instead they just bundled up or dealt with hotter days in traditional ways), and profits were typically slim.<br/>
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HP is the only check I can see on overzealous developers and builders. I just toured a brand new housing development built by a major developer, and I found so many weaknesses. This crap is exactly why I got into this industry, and why I know that if we're going to subsidize anyone it might as well be HP guys and gals. I don't want or need the money, but many of them need it. They are not salesmen and women, they are building scientists and pros, and many times their only agenda is to create better buildings...is this not a desirable thing for society?<br/>
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John, why don't guys like you and me help support these folks by partnering with them and helping them to do what they do best? I am all about rising tides for everyone, and in this case "everyone" is the contractor, the building scientist (auditor), the HO, and the utility ratepayers. Are you against this line of thinking? Would you sacrifice your principles or professional standards to make an extra buck? I want to believe that guys like you care as much as I do (and as much as these HP folks do), but be real with me and answer whether you care or not? Ultimately, let's not waste our time debating with each other. John,
You make many valid (a…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-06-19:6069565:Comment:873782012-06-19T13:15:13.302ZPatrick Michaelyanhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/PatrickMichaelyan
John,<br />
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You make many valid (and real) points. Is there not a time when the guys and gals who can really sell this HP stuff need to begin to work with (partner with) the pure auditors, etc?<br />
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Guys like you and I John will do just fine in a free market, but do you not feel that the industry must succeed if we are not to run into a lot of big problems connected to energy in the future? If the energy efficiency industry had not blossomed in the industrial and large commercial sectors over the past…
John,<br />
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You make many valid (and real) points. Is there not a time when the guys and gals who can really sell this HP stuff need to begin to work with (partner with) the pure auditors, etc?<br />
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Guys like you and I John will do just fine in a free market, but do you not feel that the industry must succeed if we are not to run into a lot of big problems connected to energy in the future? If the energy efficiency industry had not blossomed in the industrial and large commercial sectors over the past 40 years then my sense is that we would be cost competitive with almost no one on the international scene.<br />
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Just throwing it out there. Wow. This is an interesting d…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-06-19:6069565:Comment:873752012-06-19T13:09:42.060ZTom Strumolohttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/TomStrumolo
<p>Wow. This is an interesting discussion, for a technical forum. Calling incentives "socialist" is pretty weak. Even if there were such a thing as a free market, it would operate only as well as its incentives programs worked. Incentives allow us to hasten shifts in the markets. They act as trim-tabs, using small relative amounts of money and other resources to make large course adjustments. You may think of them as evil but they are intrinsic to this economy and every other, and not going…</p>
<p>Wow. This is an interesting discussion, for a technical forum. Calling incentives "socialist" is pretty weak. Even if there were such a thing as a free market, it would operate only as well as its incentives programs worked. Incentives allow us to hasten shifts in the markets. They act as trim-tabs, using small relative amounts of money and other resources to make large course adjustments. You may think of them as evil but they are intrinsic to this economy and every other, and not going away. The largest incentive programs in our economy are those managed by the IRS, of course, steering dollars to places that do the most good for the "public." - including collecting no taxes from the major oil companies.</p>
<p>Utility incentives are simply demand-side operating costs and have been inadequate by billions of total dollars in the 37 years I have been doing business with them and their customers.</p>
<p>Insulation ends up being the concept of the absolute least interest to the American people, yet the most important concept of the hundred years we are in the middle of. No illusionary free market will deal with that. The Army could, but that would probably seem like "the man" stepping on the toes of the energy "freedom fighters."</p>
<p>Ask not if rebate programs help or hurt, ask how we have to change them so they speed up the retrofit of the 50 million houses still left on the list. Technically, we need more and larger...</p>
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