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dsweeney wrote:Great call about disbelief because of misery all around being more about anger and rage at God than anything else. I'm reminded of something I read a while back. It's from "Night " by Elie Weisel, a survivor of Auschwitz and Buchenwald. A young character in it asks an older, Rabbi-like character how God could have let this happen. The older man says the answer to this question is not important but just the very act of ASKING the question brings you closer to God. My reading of this is that railing at and responding to the horror, even by questioning His very existence, elevates you closer to Him.

Correct me i I'm wrong, but God could wipe out Satan if he wanted, but he doesn't? Evil is allowed to exist by God, that I'm guessing acts as a test of faith. If there was no temptation or sin, how would people know the strength of their faith?

Is it a given that Christians don't believe in free will? Before I scratched the surface I believed that we were like those sea monkeys you used to buy in comics. God made the tank, and the stuff that went in the tank, but whatever happened after that was free will. At the end, everybody was judged based on how they used that free will. However, I'm not sure this aligns with catholic conventions.

badabellisima wrote:Oh yes, for sure Christians believe in free will. That we have this free will, that God doesn't choose for us. God waits for us sometimes to make choices and excercise our free will.

That's interesting, because the more fundamentalist guy at work believes it is all Gods work. For example, on the no JC no heaven issue, I said what about children in deepest darkest Africa, or born into families of other religions, who have never been exposed to JC, would they go to heaven? He believes God put them in that environment because he knew they would never find JC, so no, they wouldn't go to heaven. Guess it shows the diverse views of the Christian faith.

turangawaewae wrote:That's interesting, because the more fundamentalist guy at work believes it is all Gods work. For example, on the no JC no heaven issue, I said what about children in deepest darkest Africa, or born into families of other religions, who have never been exposed to JC, would they go to heaven? He believes God put them in that environment because he knew they would never find JC, so no, they wouldn't go to heaven. Guess it shows the diverse views of the Christian faith.

No personal offense to your co-worker, but this kind of arrogant bunk makes me nauseous.

Tony, his spirits crushed after b-lining to the fridge first thing in the morning: "Who ate the last piece of cake?"

I think his denomination takes quite a literal interpretation of the bible, which leads to problems on matters such as this.

Interestingly, both he and the more moderate Baptist both said you would be surprised who is in heaven. It is people's faith more than their behaviour which is important. Having said that of course, one influences the other.

I would point out to them that all of the Commandments bar one relate to behaviour. Also the ideas of "Love they neighbour....", " no greater love than to lay down his life for his brother...", "Do unto others..." etc. The people you refer to are no better than the Taliban and the worst kind of Islamic Fundamentalist. These people are as far from the essence of Christianity as you can get. They quote passages from the texts, very often out of context, usually AT someone else, condemning them as immoral. In fact, to use their own parlance, they BLASPHEME. They presume to speak for Him. "Judge not..."

I believe the message was to try to be "Christ-like" where we can, in our lives. Just do right by people. To start damning others and assuming to " be Jesus" leads to David Koresh and Jim Jones type scenarios.

Just one other point on this and I think I'm done on it. Someone mentioned that God created evil. He didn't. The only "evil" in the world is done by man. It is what I refer to as " the down-side of free will". If we didn't have the choice to take the easy way, the wrong way, what would be the point ? For it to mean anything we must be free choose. Unfortunately people choose the wrong way more often than not. Selfish, the self, me, mine, f**k him,f**k the other guy. Natural disasters I do have a problem with though, or so-called "acts of God". This is my difficulty that I have to work out.

dsweeney wrote:I would point out to them that all of the Commandments bar one relate to behaviour. Also the ideas of "Love they neighbour....", " no greater love than to lay down his life for his brother...", "Do unto others..." etc. The people you refer to are no better than the Taliban and the worst kind of Islamic Fundamentalist. These people are as far from the essence of Christianity as you can get. They quote passages from the texts, very often out of context, usually AT someone else, condemning them as immoral. In fact, to use their own parlance, they BLASPHEME. They presume to speak for Him. "Judge not..."

I believe the message was to try to be "Christ-like" where we can, in our lives. Just do right by people. To start damning others and assuming to " be Jesus" leads to David Koresh and Jim Jones type scenarios.

Just one other point on this and I think I'm done on it. Someone mentioned that God created evil. He didn't. The only "evil" in the world is done by man. It is what I refer to as " the down-side of free will". If we didn't have the choice to take the easy way, the wrong way, what would be the point ? For it to mean anything we must be free choose. Unfortunately people choose the wrong way more often than not. Selfish, the self, me, mine, f**k him,f**k the other guy. Natural disasters I do have a problem with though, or so-called "acts of God". This is my difficulty that I have to work out.

I think you need to go to bible school.No-one said God created evil. I said God allows evil to continue. If you believe in God as told in the bible, it is inconsistent to not believe in Satan.

You are also displaying the characteristics of those you condemn, by not discussing the whole picture. There are passages in the bible which specifically state the way to heaven is through belief in JC, for we are all sinners. The commandments say this is how we should act, so as to not be sinners, but nobody can meet those standards, therefore we all sin.

You judge others and accuse them of being like the Taliban, in the sentence before you have condemned others for judging - very unchristian like..