I would like to know how many other readers of Home Shop Machinist prefer to work in metric units????
Thanks

------------------
Jon Kutz Minnesota USA

Barry Young

03-19-2001, 08:01 AM

I do prefer to work in metric. It is much easier to do design work in metric once you get the hang of it. Also, the math involved in doing the machining is easier with one less decimal place.

Barry

Windshadow Engineering

03-19-2001, 01:45 PM

Jon,
To be fair we should also ask those who feel the other way on the subject to post in that thread

I think I will have to come down on the side of inches.

I work in both systems as the jobs present themselves and on the mill with its DRO it is not much of a problem as I can just flip the switch... modern electronic measuring gear also helps when a metric job is required.

The bar and flat stock I hold is 98% imperial and things like drills and other tooling is cheaper and more available than metric for me.

The sources of scrap for the scrap box are almost all imperial in sizing so that when a project from the scrap box is knocked out it will also be inch based.
BUT the fact remains that the vast majority of Home shops in the is country (and hence the readership of HSM) have older equipment that has bee sourced from the used market...

In my shop all of my heavy tools were built between 1940 and 1960 and I think I am more the norm than the exception in this.

Lathe work is for me the area that is the most work when working a metric project and as a result of a few bits of scrap produced in the past I now convert all metric projects to imperial measurement before I start if they involve lathe work.

Despite working in the metric system since my days at school I still do not visualize things that are quoted in metric measurements.. and this visual component is an important check in the 'rightness' of a process... is what I ma doing making sense in relation to the Print I am working from... with metric the extra mental step must be taken to convert before the check for 'rightness' is accepted by my brain.

A case can be made for a model made of a prototype that has been built in metric to be modeled in metric but the vast majority of things that are modeled by an HSM (or are made for antique restoration) are inch based. even some of the modern firearms I have worked on from Europe have had imperial threaded fastenings

As most of our (the readership of HSM) shops are imperial based it makes much more sense for the shop tools and accessories that we build for it from the pages of HSM should also be imperial based. When I made the transfer block from MLA it would have made little sense to build it to an even metric size rather than an even imperial size...

As the metric readers of HSM are such a small minority of the readership I think that the onus is on you to translate any projects that you build to metric if that is needed.

The case for MEW is somewhat different as it is an European publication where it is cheaper and much easier to obtain tools and stock in metric sizes than in imperial for use it is the reverse

Respectfully
Randolph Lee

heekin

03-20-2001, 10:57 AM

John,

Most of my shop equipment was built in the first half of the twentieth century and is not particularly metric-friendly. Additionally, it seems that the bulk of the raw materials purchased or scrounged today in this country are in imperial dimensions. Perhaps the continued use by the automobile industry of metric fasteners will serve to enhance the available supply of metric materials.

Randy certainly has a valid point about the ease of use of either system when electronic equipment is available. Maybe a simple project or two in HSM using the metric system would generate a few converts from among us infidels.

Frankly, however, the path of least resistance seems to be continuing to work with imperial measurements and thus continuing to wallow in our recalcitrance.

Jim Heekin
Orlando, Florida

Ben Shank

03-21-2001, 12:25 PM

Jon,
Here we are agian..fancy meeting you in place like this!!!!
I had using the metric system(we discussed this before)and will only use it if there is no other way.
I not in favor of using the metric system.

Daubie

03-21-2001, 09:58 PM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jon Kutz:
I would like to know how many other readers of Home Shop Machinist prefer to work in metric units????
Thanks

</font>

I like the metric measuring system. I wish the USA would make the decision to change and be done with it. Back in the mid-1970's there was a push here in the USA to go metric, but that didn't happen because I think of the typical stubborn nature of American workers. In 1985 I worked in a non-union shop that supplied rocker arms to all the US car and truck manufacturers, the shop being in NJ, & not AFL/CIO. We worked all metric dimensions and the machines were US inches and not CNC. We were always converting and it was a pain.
In my home shop I keep a metic meter stick handy and use it when ever I need to divide something into multiple units, being that it is much easier. And I keep my conversion charts handy as needed.

Daubie

Axel

03-23-2001, 05:35 PM

Of course the metric system is better, the whole world (almost) is using it exept the USA.

Thrud

03-29-2001, 04:02 AM

Jon;
Fractional, numbered, and A-Z drills have been replaced by decimal Metric (i.e. 17.3mm) everywhere but England, the USA, and parts of Canada. Once you start using the metric system it is much easier than the old system we now use. Converting an old iron beauty to Metric would at most require new dials and/or lead screws. At any rate, knowing the two systems will benefit you more and add to your expertise.

John McGlynn

05-01-2001, 08:39 AM

John
I do all my calculations in Metric, and would hate to have to do it any other way.
The moment of inertia of a metric section is a breeze...
Alas, I was still raised in inches and feet and have an imperial leadscrew. All my bolts, nuts, taps and dies are imperial too.
Metric drills are great for drilling tapping size holes though.

joemer

05-04-2002, 02:35 AM

Never

spope14

05-04-2002, 08:55 PM

Heck, all said and done, if you know your conversions, and own a calculator, this is no issue. If you own met tools such as a mic, caliper, and mag indicator, you can do this well.

In CNC Programming, if the project is metric, I program metric. It is just a G70 (G20 for some machines)inch programming mode switch, or G71 (G21) switch in the start of the program.

Here is one for you CNC Lathe guys. I got a program to make, all imperial dimensions but for a met thread. Tried this out on a piece of scrap stock first. Programmed the entire part in english but for the thread, then used the "inch / Metric" G-code switch for the thread, then switched back to english afterwards.

I have done this with Met tapping as well on a mill.

Anyone else a CNC person whom has done this?

Thrud

05-05-2002, 06:02 AM

spope14:
Good Idea. Give your students a project with half Imperial and half metric measurements and tell them you expect it to work perfectly. A hot air engine is good! I am evil.

FLPR@juno.com

05-05-2002, 10:07 AM

My machines are all imperial but I do a lot of my work in metric. Why? My micrometers above 1 inch are metric. I have a set of 3 snap gauges in metric, range 0 to 25 mm, accuracy .00004 inches, that I paid 30 dollars for. They retail at $1200 each. I have a dial indicator, same accuracy, $5. Now you know a good reason to consider metric. This stuff was all government surplus with recent calibration stickers.

JCHannum

05-05-2002, 10:38 AM

A metric gage with 0.00004 INCH accuracy? What's wrong with this picture?

FLPR@juno.com

05-05-2002, 03:45 PM

What's wrong is: one too many decimal places.
More like 0.0004! Sorry about that.

spope14

05-05-2002, 08:06 PM

Did that once, the inch metric project mix thing. It was a programming project though, where I proved the metric thread thing "en masse" to the non- believers.

We make these real cool air engines in my shop. I will take this advise and try the mix dimensions. I am also evil to a fault.

Still want you to be a visiting teacher. I still get a chuckle about the boots things you posted.

Thrud

05-06-2002, 02:13 AM

spope14:
It was not that funny when it happened. Smashed my little toe with a big piece of structural steel I put on the welding table when my helmet dropped down - at least I thought it was on the table...

Sneakers do not - I repeat, do not make good steel toe boots. Mean bugger made me wear safety boots after that.

Second moral, buy your own personal welding helmet and warn your co-workers that certain death awaits any knob using your helmet for any reason.

Third moral: Kicking holes through walls when you are not drunk with your other good foot makes for bad "Kodak Moments" - even if it does offer theraputic pain releif. Hence "Little Dave", "400lb. gorilla" (at least I kept my clothes on that time).

Oh, to be young, stupid, and indestructable again. Ok, maybe leave the stupid part out.

Mike L

05-06-2002, 02:59 PM

Don't worry, the US is going metric. All new vehicles are made metric, even my new 3/4 ton pickup. So, all mechanics will need metric tools, imperial tools will become as obsolete as whitworth in 20-30 years.

Personally, I use both. But most machining is done in imperial units. It wouldn't bother me if we converted to metric tomorrow.

Mike L
178cm
88kg

FLPR@juno.com

05-06-2002, 06:47 PM

For me, I think it is just getting an introduction to a different system. In my freshman physics class, a loooong time ago, we had to use three different systems. Imperial, MKS(That is now called the metric system), and CGS(Centimeter, gram, second system), which was a now obsolete system used in scientific measurement. I still remember a test question in which we had to figure out the lifting power of a balloon. None of the quantities we needed were in the same units, he even mixed some of them up, like the density of helium in grams per cubic inch, and he wanted ther lifting power in pounds.

Thrud

05-07-2002, 12:05 AM

FLPR
Cross conversion of units made easy.
HP-48GX. It is cute, cuddly, only eats AAA batteries - and no calculator poo to clean up either! RPN! What else could you ask for?

Thank God there is no Metric Bolean Algebra. Yet.

NAIT

03-01-2004, 09:53 PM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Axel:
Of course the metric system is better, the whole world (almost) is using it exept the USA.</font>

At last report, Burma and Liberia are nearly full-metricated in law. That leaves only the USA - being only ~40% metricated. Of course, custom lags, and even "fully" metric countries have some non-metric tranasactions. According to one report, in Britain women and dog food are still weighed in "stones" (don't understand the connection, but there it is...).

Al Messer

03-01-2004, 10:03 PM

According to an Australian friend of mine, Australia went Metric many moons ago, but guess what, no Metric screws, bolts or nuts for sale in the local hardware stores. I personally think that the Metric System is something that came out of the anarchy of the French Revolution as a symbol of France's determination to be "different" from the rest of the world.

chkz

03-01-2004, 10:25 PM

its easier to put on slippers than to try 'n carpet the world....!!!

I just make do with what I got/can easily find...and convert as necessary!!

Be Safe!

DR

03-01-2004, 10:38 PM

"Here is one for you CNC Lathe guys. I got a program to make, all imperial dimensions but for a met thread. Tried this out on a piece of scrap stock first. Programmed the entire part in english but for the thread, then used the "inch / Metric" G-code switch for the thread, then switched back to english afterwards.

I have done this with Met tapping as well on a mill.

Anyone else a CNC person whom has done this? "

Occasionally I'll have to thread a metric external thread on the CNC lathe. I have a chart that shows all the common metric threads with there equivalent inch dimensions.

I'd be afraid to program directly in metric because of all the parameters in the threading cycle, I might get a critical one wrong and break a cutter or worse.

I guess I could program in inches then turn the metric option on and it'll convert the whole program to metric, but there's not much use. My thread micrometers are all inch type so I might as well do everything that way using the conversion chart.

franco

03-01-2004, 11:17 PM

I can confirm what Al Messer says. Most local hardware shops in my area (North Queensland, Oz), still carry a full range of Whitworth threaded fasteners (mostly made in Taiwan!) but carry only 8mm, 10mm and 12mm bolts, and those only in lengths commonly used by builders. Some have a fairly limited selection of metric stuff in very expensive small plastic packs, but to get any sort of a selection you have to go to a specialist fastener supplier. But, hey, it's not quite 30 years yet since we "went metric" - you can't rush into these things!

What it means in practise is that if I am building something for the shop, I will design it in metric,which is easier once you get used to it, and use metric threads on most bits I make, but most of the purchased bolts etc. used will be imperial. I have got into the habit of stamping the thread type on things like tee nuts to save confusion. Most stock steel sizes have been metric for years, but recently I couldn't buy 20mm shafting locally; however 3/4 in. was available!

Just to add to the confusion, one of my lathes has imperial graduations, the mill drill has metric graduations, and the other (Chinese) lathe has both. It also has an imperial leadscrew, but metric gears and fasteners! Thank heavens for pocket calculators.

However, to answer the original question, yes, I now prefer to work in metric, and can visualise metric sizes more readily than imperial ones. Took a long time though.

franco

wierdscience

03-01-2004, 11:19 PM

Well for my two cents a simple set of () next to the inch measure will suffice if it is an American publication and if it is lets say a Mongolian publication or some other third world country like France then the inches would be inside the ().

It only makes sense since both systems have their streghts and weaknesses.

People in Europe can maybe turn around and pick up a 20mm piece of cold rolled to fit thier 20mm bore ball bearings,but not here,We can turn around and pick up our 3" channel iron and people in Europe can't,so we're even.Personally I say thank god for Inch dimesion ball bearings http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

AND LIKE SAID ON A PREVIUOS POST,"AMERICA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY TO PUT A MAN ON THE MOON AND WE DIDN'T DO IT WITH BOLTS MADE IN ALGERIA!"

jkilroy

01-01-2006, 02:46 PM

Bringing up an ole favorite topic!

"imperial tools will become as obsolete as whitworth in 20-30 years"

30 Years? Ford converted to all metric in the mid 80's I think. At least I know my 84 Mustang didn't have an imperial fastener on it. I use metric when required, all my iron is UN-metric. I will admit that CAD is easier in millimeters. With a smaller unit I find I work with more integers which makes the math easy.

[This message has been edited by jkilroy (edited 01-01-2006).]

JCHannum

01-01-2006, 03:28 PM

Why drag up a four year old thread just to discuss metric vs. Imperial?

Metric is just another system to measure things. It is no better or worse than any other, and something this big around is this big around no matter how you measure it.

Some pseudo-sophisticates intimate the metric system is somehow superior due to its scientific background.

The current definition of a meter is the length of the path travelled by light in a vacuum during a time interval of 1/299,792,548 of a second. How's that for a proveable number, and can we really be sure that it is not 1/299, 792,547 or 1/299,792,549 of a second?

The fact is that the metric system of measurement has been tinkered with since its inception to make it fit. It is just as much a derived measurement as the inch or any other method of measurement.

If I recall, it was originally derived from some portion of the diameter of the earth, calculated in error by a couple of Frenchmen.

[This message has been edited by JCHannum (edited 01-01-2006).]

PHiers

01-01-2006, 07:45 PM

Metric? No good reason. Why are counties willing to sell imperial lathes and milling machines to us "backwords" people? Well it keeps them out of the poor house. If the rest of the world commits suicide should we? Of course not.

As far as cars being all metric, there is no such thing! There are a real mix, makes the mechanics buy both sets of tools. I suppose that is good for the someone, just not the mechanic or those that pay to have their car fixed!

Just my not so humble opinion! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

------------------
Paul in NE Ohio

[This message has been edited by PHiers (edited 01-01-2006).]

chief

01-01-2006, 07:57 PM

I can work in either one but prefer english.

wierdscience

01-01-2006, 08:07 PM

I can work in either equally well,but since this is a 90% imperial country I prefer inch units.I regularly convert metric unit machinery to inch units since there are many things in metric units that are not readily availible.

We could have put the clamps down on the whole metric system world wide years ago if we had inacted a law banning metric units and manufactured goods from entering the country.

If I am ever elected president/dictator/galatic overlord I promise I will vanquish metric units from the American landscape so help me God http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Evan

01-01-2006, 09:53 PM

I work in metric inches. I even have a dial caliper that reads both.

JCHannum

01-01-2006, 10:03 PM

Here is another link that shows how poorly the metric system has been accepted in European countries, where is has been "the" system since it's inception. It seems to be universally resented by most people.

http://www.bwmaonline.com/How%20Metric%20is%20Europe.htm

mochinist

01-01-2006, 10:03 PM

I don't mind working in either, and actually metric is a little easier. The one problem I see for my customers and I try and get this message across to them, is that if they call out for metric units in everything, I have to machine all sides of the common imperial sized stock, this ads more money to a time and material job. For example 50mm is real close to 2", but it is not up to me to decide that the part would be ok at 2", it is my job to make the part per print and tolerance. This really isn't a problem with more experienced designers(they would just put 50.8mm), but with the advent of CAD programs anyone can be a designer nowadays.

JCD

01-01-2006, 11:23 PM

I think it’s a shame that the majority of the American public thinks it’s O.K. for Communist China to continue to produce our consumer products using the metric system, but I not going to convert my home shop equipment to that system. I guess I’m just to old or to conservative to change from the U.S. system of measurement.

x39

01-01-2006, 11:44 PM

I can't recall the source, but I read once that over half the hardware worldwide is imperial.

Alistair Hosie

01-02-2006, 02:36 AM

I can work in both but you won't convince me that metric is harder than imperial it is (once used a few times) much simpler.We changed to metric currency which DON'T FORGET you had long before us in 1970 it has been a struggle for a few years for the old and a few stubborn diehards but after a few years no one would want to go back. Make the world unified is pretty smart in my book why do things the complicated way.Alistair

Timleech

01-02-2006, 02:50 AM

I use both interchangeably for the day job (boat repair), depends which side of the ruler I pick up. For machining I still use both, but do have a bit of a mental blockage about visualising small (sub-0.5mm) metric measurements and find myself converting ('what's that in thous?'). That's just a question of practice, not prejudice. My big lathe is metric, the small one imperial, my manual mill is Imperial but I always work in metric on the CNC mill. The big lathe has a DRO and I often work on it in Imperial, but one of my projects is to fit a DRO to the small lathe so that I can work on that in Metric.

Tim

Moxiedad2001

01-02-2006, 09:31 AM

I'm a university scientist who reads and writes articles for an international audience. SI units (the international system based on the metric system) are extremely useful in this milieu. But if I found that metric units were truly more handy for personal use, I would long since have abandoned the English system. I have not.

The English system is more cumbersome to master, but it is far more versatile once you understand it. I like the fact that I can choose to measure in yards, feet, inches, or half-, quarter-, eighth, sixteenth-, and 32nd-inches according to the degree of precision needed. At that scale -- the human scale if you wish -- metric only gives you choices of meters, centimeters, and millimeters.

This is an advantage of the English system that never seems to be mentioned. Metric advocates point out that the US monetary system is "metric" but overlook the fact that it is bastardized by non-decimal denominations such as the nickel and quarter.

Kim Steiner

bob_s

01-02-2006, 02:53 PM

One big problem for the American economy is its lack of metrification. How can you expect to sell products into a predominantly "METRIC" market, when they do not conform to the system. Until American industry bites the bullet and retools for metric production, you can expect further decline in the American share of the world market.

In spite of this dismal message a happy new year to all!

Evan

01-02-2006, 03:01 PM

I work in both and so does everyone else. For most machinists who work in inches they work in metric inches below the scale of one inch. .0001 .001 .010 .100 etc. It makes no difference what the arbitrary unit of length is, it's still a metric based on ten. The only difference with the "metric" system is that it is extended to all scales and measures.

John Stevenson

01-02-2006, 03:28 PM

.

[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 01-10-2006).]

halac

01-02-2006, 04:30 PM

I'll have to put my vote in for the Imperial system. I've worked with it all my life (51 yrs.) and just don't "think" well in the metric system.

I've been in the metrology business for the last 22 years and in that time I've seen very little metric system usage. Maybe less than 1% has been metric. The only prevalent use of metrics is in weights; grams, kilos, etc. Several of the customers I go to their product is in metric, but they want Their equipment calibrated in Imperial. Go figure.

Everything I do in my shop at home is in Imperial. When I get an outside job, I make sure that the person wanting a part made gives all their dimensions in inches. So far I've had no problems with this request.

------------------
No matter where you go, there you are!

Hal C. , www.teampyramid.com (http://www.teampyramid.com)

.RC.

01-02-2006, 06:46 PM

Metric metric metric all the way....The only retarded thing about the metric system is their retarded thread system..It is retarded..LOL

But yea I will convert any imperial measurement to metric before I take a cut..I used to use imperial on my old imperial lathe but I find metric a lot easier to use...

But hey go with what you find best for the home shop...90% of worldwide industry is metric and rightly so...

speedy

01-02-2006, 08:37 PM

I was bought up on imperial then had to learn metric when it was introduced. Metric is far far easier and logical; having said that I find that I can still work with imperial and have no problem switching from one to the other.
Most of you may know this; to convert fraction to decimal :
divide the numerator by the denominator.

Ken

Arcane

01-02-2006, 09:30 PM

I found this little trick surfing the net. To convert a fraction to an approximate metric value, keep doubling the numerator and denominator until the denominator is 256. The numerator, divided by ten, will then be a very close approximation to the real metric value. Eg: 17/64 ... double it once, 34/128...double it again, 68/256... Your approximate value is 6.8 mm. 17/64 is .265625 which converts to 6.746875 mm. This isn`t exact, but it`s fast and easy and very close.

speedy

01-02-2006, 11:25 PM

Not trying to be a smart arse, because I`m not smart enough http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif but a bit easier is ((numerator / denominator)/.0394 )... or .04
Now where is my calculator?.........
Ken

[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 01-02-2006).]

wierdscience

01-03-2006, 02:18 AM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob_s:
One big problem for the American economy is its lack of metrification. How can you expect to sell products into a predominantly "METRIC" market, when they do not conform to the system. Until American industry bites the bullet and retools for metric production, you can expect further decline in the American share of the world market.

In spite of this dismal message a happy new year to all!</font>

Which system is used has nothing to do with it whatsoever.Fact is if another company wants to sell here they had better use imperial measures.
We export to countries that either A are too poor to afford anything we build,or B support the're industries through subsudies and tarriffs.

Our economy is currently running a GDP of over 11 trillion dollars,larger than 104 of the worlds countries combined.Why should we be the ones to convert?

Finally either system can be bastardized by people who insist on using partial units.10.8mm would be an example so would .569" niether example can be broken down to an even value of any use.

If we have an inch we can break it down into 64ths,32nds,16ths,8ths and 4ths.If we have MM we can break them down into 100,90,80,70,60 and so on.That is until some wise guy wants .569" or 10.8mm.

We here in the States should have never allowed the metric system in,all it has done is bred confusion and inefficency.

We here in the States should have never allowed the metric system in,all it has done is bred confusion and inefficency.</font>

dunno has it.....every other country in the world has gone through the process...why is the US any different?????

Overall metric is a far simpler system...throw all the fractions away, and everything works in together....want to find a litre of water...simply get a container 100mmX100mmX100mm...fill it with water and it will also be a kilogram of water in it...Want to mark out a hectare..simply mark out a 100mX100m square...

1000 milligrams to a gram..1000 grams to a kilogram...1000 kilograms to a tonne

1000 microns to a millimetre...1000 millimetres to a metre...1000 metres to a kilometre..

1000 millilitres to a litre...1000 litres to a kilolitre....1000 kilolitres to a megalitre

[This message has been edited by Ringer (edited 01-03-2006).]

speedy

01-03-2006, 05:28 AM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ringer:
[B]
Overall metric is a far simpler system...throw all the fractions away, and everything works in together....want to find a litre of water...simply get a container 100mmX100mmX100mm...fill it with water and it will also be a kilogram of water in it...Want to mark out a hectare..simply mark out a 100mX100m square...
1000 milligrams to a gram..1000 grams to a kilogram...1000 kilograms to a tonne
1000 microns to a millimetre...1000 millimetres to a metre...1000 metres to a kilometre..
1000 millilitres to a litre...1000 litres to a kilolitre....1000 kilolitres to a megalitreB]</font>

Too much of a stretch for some?? or just plain obstinant? I suppose if a person doesn`t want/need to know they shouldn`t have their arm twisted.

Ken

.RC.

01-03-2006, 05:36 AM

For sure...like I posted a couple of posts above for HSM it does not matter what you use...I was taught metric at school so find it easy...I can use imperial as far as small measurement goes but i don't know like how many pounds to a ton, or even how many yards to a mile off the top of my head...

Allan Waterfall

01-03-2006, 05:45 AM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by speedy:
but a bit easier is ((numerator / denominator)/.0394 )... or .04
Now where is my calculator?.........
Ken

[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 01-02-2006).]</font>

When you get that Myford running you'd better start using 0.03937 as you'll need to be that bit more accurate. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Allan

speedy

01-03-2006, 06:12 AM

We`re a bit rough and ready down here in the colonies Allan. .03937007874 is just a bit too much to recall, so .04 suits me just fine http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
You will be pleased to know that I relocated the Myford parts the other day...ahhh, progress! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif Attempting to organise the mess/shed.

Happy New Year.
Ken

phil burman

01-03-2006, 06:20 AM

Hi wierdscience,

I trust this is a windup. Or has that part of your anatomy which connects your head to your body been in the sun to long. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

I'm sure you can't really believe what you say. The post displays the arrogance of a school yard bully and the reasoning power of a farmyard chicken.

Sorry for being so blunt but I though somebody should point this out to you.

Which system is used has nothing to do with it whatsoever.Fact is if another company wants to sell here they had better use imperial measures.
We export to countries that either A are too poor to afford anything we build,or B support the're industries through subsudies and tarriffs.

Our economy is currently running a GDP of over 11 trillion dollars,larger than 104 of the worlds countries combined.Why should we be the ones to convert?

Finally either system can be bastardized by people who insist on using partial units.10.8mm would be an example so would .569" niether example can be broken down to an even value of any use.

If we have an inch we can break it down into 64ths,32nds,16ths,8ths and 4ths.If we have MM we can break them down into 100,90,80,70,60 and so on.That is until some wise guy wants .569" or 10.8mm.

We here in the States should have never allowed the metric system in,all it has done is bred confusion and inefficency.</font>

Arcane

01-03-2006, 07:58 AM

Take a look in the "alphabets" in this site if you want to see how many units of measurement there are.
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/index.html

spope14

01-03-2006, 08:50 AM

Either metric or english. Doers not matter. Have the tools for both, v\can read the tools for both, have the visual and physical appreciation for both. Know the conversions when needed.

In programming, it is no big deal. Just a G20 or G21 (or G70, G71).

The trick is to be able to visually understand one mm and .100 thousanths. If you can't have the basic undetstanding of looking at an item that is 1 mm, andf an item that is .100 thou, then you have no base of reference. Once past that, you are good. It is kind of like using the visual comparison of 1/8" and 1/4", Just having an appreciation of the sizes.

mbensema

01-03-2006, 08:50 AM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Which system is used has nothing to do with it whatsoever.Fact is if another company wants to sell here they had better use imperial measures.
</font>

It has a lot to do with it. I have many good friends in Germany and asked them about this last year. A couple of them said they will never buy an American product until we convert to the metric system since they do not want to buy new tools or have to worry about finding an imperial screw.

I do believe our stubborness and arrogance is causing us to loose export sales as well as off shoring. Manufacturers must create metric designs of their products to sell to foreign countries, it is much easier to tool up in the foreign market then to retool here in America. Caterpillar is an example, they have a large presence in Germany, but they built a factory in Germany to support the European market. If we were metric, this production might have been done here.

I don't think the opposite has as much of an effect. We are used to metric products by now and I don't think it has much of an effect on sales except for a few stubborn people. I actually search out metric products since I would like to standardize on one system and my preference is metric (which means I usually buy non-American products). I find it far easier to use and design all my projects in metric units. Most of this comes down to what people are comfortable with, with the schools teaching metric, I expect to see a switch over to this system over the next 10-20 years as the people set in their ways die off.

One other point, there has been a number of people mentioning problems with metric fasteners, what is the deal? I have been working on metric machines for years and have never noticed any problems. What are these problems everyone talks about?

PBMW

01-03-2006, 10:23 AM

Here's an interesting question.
If You, in a metric country, order a part from Me, in an Imperial country, and your drawing is in metric, and I program it in Imperial...can you tell the difference?
Didn't think so
Jim

phil burman

01-03-2006, 12:00 PM

If your name is wierdscience then it probably arrives 25.4 times bigger than I expected. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Phil

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PBMW:
Here's an interesting question.
If You, in a metric country, order a part from Me, in an Imperial country, and your drawing is in metric, and I program it in Imperial...can you tell the difference?
Didn't think so
Jim</font>

Alistair Hosie

01-03-2006, 06:46 PM

.I think U.S.A has other issues which lose sales with old fashioned ideas. In Woodworking
you guys make good products just as I am impressed with most other things you make, I watch Norm Abram on satellite t v he uses a good saw a Delta but unlike Europe who have made a proper sliding table delta have no such thing he made an accessory with plywood which fits in his table slaw slot and uses that while we here mostly nowadays have proper bearing guided sliding tables. People here love the saw but they refuse to come into the 21st century with these tools also the make a spindle which carries a dado blade in Europe that is not allowed as the saw guard has to be removed. Question if these things are not sought after in the USA which I know they are why not develop at least an adapted version which would be snapped up here in Europe. This does mystify me. Alistair ps no intended insult to my American buddies here or anywhere else.

[This message has been edited by Alistair Hosie (edited 01-03-2006).]

SHOPA$$

01-03-2006, 08:13 PM

WOW! I find my self going back in forth metric/inch. On the mill metric dosen't bother me much. Usually work with whole numbers. Lathe I prefer the inches, maybe the diameter/radius relationship? While wood working, construction I never work metric doesn't "feel/look" right. When I was little I remember a blind carpenter, he measured with a length of rope. Your row house was one rope wide, two rope deep, the front door was at one half rope, the two windows went at one fourth rope left/right, and no he didn't do roofs. He definetly did not think metric, or 16in centers, and his work still stands.

------------------
Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

ulav8r

01-03-2006, 10:55 PM

Dear Sir,

Where do you find the negative diameter drill bits? I think an 8mm thread with a 1mm pitch is a standard. If so your formula would call for a -7mm hole.

_____________________________________________
Same applies for metric threads. I can't remember the last time I has to look at a metric tapping chart as the pitch minus the diameter is always the tapping size no matter what pitch, fine or course.

Sir John.
_____________________________________________

Don't get bent out of shape guys, I fully appreciate the help that Sir John gives us and would love to be able to call him a good friend and acquaintance.

x39

01-03-2006, 11:04 PM

I don't understand why so many people have a hard time with fractions. Fer cryin' out loud, they're farm measurements. What could be simpler?

BillH

01-03-2006, 11:08 PM

I use both, the science classes I took at college were all metric. The science sector of our country is well into using metric. Ofcourse if you tell me your weight in Kilograms I have no freaking idea how heavy you are unless I get out the calculator.

Alistair Hosie

01-03-2006, 11:56 PM

Can I say this I genuinely believe it would be easier for a long term imperial user to get to grips with metric than the other way round.Alistair

wierdscience

01-04-2006, 12:05 AM

DDP

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 01-03-2006).]

wierdscience

01-04-2006, 12:07 AM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by phil burman:
If your name is wierdscience then it probably arrives 25.4 times bigger than I expected. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Phil

</font>

Personal attacks are a blazing example of ignorance,that's why I rarely use them http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

wierdscience

01-04-2006, 12:17 AM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alistair Hosie:
.I think U.S.A has other issues which lose sales with old fashioned ideas. In Woodworking
you guys make good products just as I am impressed with most other things you make, I watch Norm Abram on satellite t v he uses a good saw a Delta but unlike Europe who have made a proper sliding table delta have no such thing he made an accessory with plywood which fits in his table slaw slot and uses that while we here mostly nowadays have proper bearing guided sliding tables. People here love the saw but they refuse to come into the 21st century with these tools also the make a spindle which carries a dado

[This message has been edited by Alistair Hosie (edited 01-03-2006).]</font>

Alistair,we do in fact make sliding table panel saws,Delta even does,they just cost a lot more.The Saw Norm uses will set you back $1850-1900 USD for the model he uses.Step up a notch or two and you can get a 14" blade,sliding table and a few other goodies,but the price jumps to $3500 USD or better.
Many of the import Asian woodworking machines like the ones Grizzly sells are patterned after American designs,the're 14" Tablesaw is an example.Many of the parts will directly interchange with the Delta/Rockwell 14",even the bolts.

Also the average American woodworker has more floor space availible then most do in Europe and the UK,so many times we have seperate machines.In a cabinet shop you will see stand alone panel saws with 120"sliding tables as standard fare.

wierdscience

01-04-2006, 01:04 AM

"It has a lot to do with it. I have many good friends in Germany and asked them about this last year. A couple of them said they will never buy an American product until we convert to the metric system since they do not want to buy new tools or have to worry about finding an imperial screw.

I do believe our stubborness and arrogance is causing us to loose export sales as well as off shoring. Manufacturers must create metric designs of their products to sell to foreign countries, it is much easier to tool up in the foreign market then to retool here in America. Caterpillar is an example, they have a large presence in Germany, but they built a factory in Germany to support the European market. If we were metric, this production might have been done here."
---------------------------------------------
Doesn't matter one bit,Caterpillar has plants there,just like BMW,Volvo,Mercedes,Honda and Nissan all have plants here.
---------------------------------------------
"One other point, there has been a number of people mentioning problems with metric fasteners, what is the deal? I have been working on metric machines for years and have never noticed any problems. What are these problems everyone talks about?"
---------------------------------------------
First metric fasteners got a bad rap here simply because our first experience with them was on machines of inferior quality coming in from Europe.Piss poor steel combined with non-standard threads made life miserable to the people who bought them.
Second there is no standard for the metric fine series,only the coarse series.To the contrary the American unified thread has been adopted as a global standard since 1957 if I remember the year and has a set standard for both the UNC and UNF series as well as the newer UNEC and UNEF series.
Third in a practical sense,the coarse selection of metric thread are too fine a pitch for the indended materials and the fine pitch(es)have no defined global standard.
I have had plenty of trouble with metric machines.One Italian lathe has horrible castings,nowhere near American grey iron.I have repaired over 60 fasteners and several castings on that machine.Most times it;s a m 10x1.5 thread that's at fualt,they eiter loosen up and strip,or they gall and tear the threads.
---------------------------------------------

"what has that got to do with it..So the US is big..."
---------------------------------------------

Fact is most people have no idea the level of industrialization here compared to the rest of the world.

"dunno has it.....every other country in the world has gone through the process...why is the US any different?????"
---------------------------------------------

The difference between the two systems in terms of ease is nill,imperial is not really difficult at all,unless you are an arrogant European(note I do not consider any of my brothers and sisters in the former British empire to be European,you guys are far to civilized http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif)

"Too much of a stretch for some?? or just plain obstinant? I suppose if a person doesn`t want/need to know they shouldn`t have their arm twisted."
---------------------------------------------
Geez John,here a gallon contains,four quarts,a quart contains two pints and so forth.Yes it's a little more complicated,but easy to remember,besides,if you don't use those brain cells they quit working don't they? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
Which is better anyway,a liter of beer or a gallon of beer? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

---------------------------------------------

Finally I don't want anyone here thinking that I am "uncomfortable" or "ignorant" of the metric system,I am fluent in both imperial and metric.16 years in the business has made so.

I have worked side by side with metric born and raised workers from Europe and Asia,I found that 1 German and 1 Japanese were my equals and the rest I could run circles around in either system.

So far as the term"arrogance"coming from a European it is shear hypocricy,after all Europeans wrote the book on arrogance.

As for the argument that thre rest of the world has converted to metric I say so what?If your nieghbors all jumped off a cliff,would you?

Norman Atkinson

01-04-2006, 02:58 AM

It's all reassuring when one knows a man who can do arithmetic- and can divide by two. This is the basis of the Imperial system of measurement.How arrogant people must be if others can move the decimal point to the left or right. How stupid when those who have learnt to divide by two have to learn how to move their decimal places in a similar fashion.

Just a thought, just a thought! The next thought was when American financiers couldn't do arithmetic- and jumped from every skyscraper in NY. Just a thought, Weirdscience- just a thought.
Or did you say something amazingly prophetic?

Isn't it interesting to be able to read American history and literature- in its original language. It needs a thought, it needs a thought!

Wasn't it the arrogance and affluence of Rome's Imperialism that led it to its decline and fall?
Just another thought.Weirdscience- you did read classical literature, didn't you?
Norm

Millman

01-04-2006, 03:05 AM

Norm, got a little carried away there, didn't you? I have to lean more to Weirdscience. And what about these crazy metric thread sizes, anyway? HA!

------------------
Dave da Slave

Norman Atkinson

01-04-2006, 03:19 AM

Dave,
Nobody is carrying me away- well, not yet!
I live in four countries- and when I say, live I mean with the deeds, titles, bank accounts and all the multifarious problems which arise.

Frankly, I am no different than my Spanish suppliers when I asked whether they wanted to deal in Imperial or Metric Measure.
They were not fussy- end of story.
They were not fussy whether I paid them in
GB pounds, euros, dollars, deutchmarks but called a halt in Brazillian Cruceros!

The summation is- rather interesting.
I haven't had to work for the last 20 years.
Just a thought- and an arrogant one?
What did you say about odd metric sizes?
As whosit said in Gone with the Wind- Frankly, my dear! I couldn't care a damn.

Norm

[This message has been edited by NORMAN ATKINSON (edited 01-04-2006).]

sauer38h

01-04-2006, 03:32 AM

Automatic Double Post feature disengaged.

[This message has been edited by sauer38h (edited 01-05-2006).]

sauer38h

01-04-2006, 03:35 AM

And what's with that "first angle projection" stuff those funny foreigners use? Bunch of weirdos. Unless you think everybody should do it the way the French say they should. Though that attitude proved unpopular after about 1815. (Correction - Russia, which Napoleon failed to overrun, kept traditional units until the Bolsheviks messed everything up - the Bolos went for the French system. Typical.)

The part of SI "metric" notation I hate is writing decimal points as commas. Sheer barbarism. If they're commas, they ain't "points".

[This message has been edited by sauer38h (edited 01-04-2006).]

Millman

01-04-2006, 03:37 AM

Norm, I love the English culture; such as the Beatles, the castles, the Haunted castles, the way of life; but I used to hold tolerances to 2 millionths of an inch for die polishing for a can plant years ago. We used a microscope with reticles graduated in inches, not metric; and do you know that ALL our machines were made in England, state of the art at that time in the mid 80's. You know you could always move to the States, Hell, I might even come over to see your shop! See, it would be so much simpler. I can always say "Damn, I forgot my calculator" You're a good man Charlie Brown!!!!

------------------
Dave da Slave

speedy

01-04-2006, 03:39 AM

"As whosit said in Gone with the Wind- Frankly, my dear! I couldn't care a damn."

I was gone with the wind last evening....oh my poor, long suffering wife, she gave a damn. I was dangerous until 2am http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Ken

[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 01-04-2006).]

Millman

01-04-2006, 03:45 AM

Yeah, Clark Gable; but is the wife good with the Metric system?

------------------
Dave da Slave

Norman Atkinson

01-04-2006, 04:53 AM

Ken,
Ever tried Bi-carbonate of soda?
More story, please? Never mind this minor Metrication lark. Let's get down to the real things that matter.

All together- Yes, Ken, yes!

Norm

Millman

01-04-2006, 05:13 AM

That sounds TOO kinky for me, "Yes Ken, Yes! I'll stay out of that and the literature!

------------------
Dave da Slave

speedy

01-05-2006, 06:10 AM

Dave,Norm and I are good friends; and that is all I`m saying!

"but is the wife good with the Metric system?"
Metric reads a lot more impressive than imperial and it is user friendly.....still.

Ken
and as Mountain sang "I`m alright now"

speedy

01-05-2006, 06:11 AM

what happened here?

[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 01-05-2006).]

Millman

01-05-2006, 07:35 AM

Sorry guys, just joking around. I used to take the Metric prints home and transpose them to make the next day go easier. Still have to use a calculator! Speedy, I think you mean Misissippi Queen by Mountain; because All Right Now, was by Free. I still play those songs,believe it or not!

------------------
Dave da Slave

speedy

01-05-2006, 08:27 AM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Millman:
Sorry guys, just joking around. I used to take the Metric prints home and transpose them to make the next day go easier. Still have to use a calculator! Speedy, I think you mean Misissippi Queen by Mountain; because All Right Now, was by Free. I still play those songs,believe it or not!</font>

No apology needed Dave, as no offense taken. It is easy to misconstrue the intent sometimes but I figured you were piss taking.
Thanks for the correction. I must have memory fade. They are both great songs that still move me, and take me back to a different time. Just seeing the words Misissippi Queen, I can hear that song clearly. All my old 45`s and most of my LP`s are long gone http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif.

Ken

[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 01-05-2006).]

Your Old Dog

01-09-2006, 08:42 AM

Thanks Evan ! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Lets do the "chicken or the egg" next !

bolmas

01-09-2006, 10:35 AM

on the bench at work i have 2 identical lawnmowers by performance plus which is a brand name of b&q
both have briggs and stratton 3.5hp side valve engines.both engines look identical, but one is made in usa and uses imperial threads and the other is made by technomoto in italy and uses metric threads.
i wonder how i go on for ordering spare parts?what if threads on engine components are different?
this could prove interesting!!

Norman Atkinson

01-10-2006, 04:00 AM

I've moved from "Piddling around" and if you have a prostate like mine- you do!

Rockrat raised the point about counting in French. Maybe he got things a bit wrong- he had two birds in the bush at the time.

Counting in French is interesting when you get to 80. It becomes 4 20's or quatre vingt.
From there on, they add et un or and one but for two a simple deux. Fine but they keep counting using 4 20's and numbers until a 100.

I live at Les Arcs- there were three but now four. Mine is 1800 ie metres above sea level. In French, I live at mille- a thousand but quatre(4) vingts(20) cent(100)