rejuvinet wrote:
It's a crappy thing to do, but that's what's happened - but, and this is the gist of my whole point, it's not so late that this whole thing can't be salvaged. At least, not so long as there is a hint on either side of working towards a reconciliation of sorts that works for both sides.

My concern is not for me, Miro, or the devs - to be quite frank about it. It's about the end users. It's about the community, and people who are using Mambo because they were referred to it. I know that myself, I have persuaded at least 60 people over the past almost 4 years to switch from their existing web site solution (whether it be straight HTML or another CMS) to Mambo. In some cases I REALLY had to work at it, extolling the virtues of how *stable* it is, and how helpful the community is, and how the dev team and the parent company *really care* about their users.

My position hasn't changed at this point - it's being severely tested, mind you, but it hasn't changed. I honestly believe if there was any dialogue that this could be amicably resolved. But *someone* has to step up to the plate.

If we take a step back and look at the situation carefully - do you really think the core team (and I am not just talking about the dev team here, but the entire core that has made the move) just packed their literal bags and walked? Do you not think that they probably had talks, and, knowing them, did everything they could to prevent a split occuring?
This is not a case of some little boys in a playground getting snotty, picking up the ball and walking. This core team is more involved and more protective of the CMS than any other people. If there had been anything that could have been done to prevent the split - they would have done it. There just comes a time when it becomes obvious that there is no middle ground and that's when the hard decisions have to be made.

This is not about personality clashes, nor about power plays - it is simply about the core team sticking with the vision and being put between a rock and a hard place by outside (Miro) influences. Miro went in a different direction and had they not owned the mamboserver forum & mosforge the community would have not noticed more than a ripple.

The CMS is the same great CMS, nothing changed. Same team, same community, same peer support. It just had to be in a different place. Development has not stopped. We are waiting for a new release - yeah, what's new? We are ALWAYS waiting for the next, bigger, better, brighter, release.

The best thing we can all do to not panic the non-involved user community is to keep our own focus on the CMS moving forward.

Elpie wrote:
If we take a step back and look at the situation carefully - do you really think the core team (and I am not just talking about the dev team here, but the entire core that has made the move) just packed their literal bags and walked? Do you not think that they probably had talks, and, knowing them, did everything they could to prevent a split occuring?
This is not a case of some little boys in a playground getting snotty, picking up the ball and walking. This core team is more involved and more protective of the CMS than any other people. If there had been anything that could have been done to prevent the split - they would have done it. There just comes a time when it becomes obvious that there is no middle ground and that's when the hard decisions have to be made.

This is not about personality clashes, nor about power plays - it is simply about the core team sticking with the vision and being put between a rock and a hard place by outside (Miro) influences. Miro went in a different direction and had they not owned the mamboserver forum & mosforge the community would have not noticed more than a ripple.

The CMS is the same great CMS, nothing changed. Same team, same community, same peer support. It just had to be in a different place. Development has not stopped. We are waiting for a new release - yeah, what's new? We are ALWAYS waiting for the next, bigger, better, brighter, release.

The best thing we can all do to not panic the non-involved user community is to keep our own focus on the CMS moving forward.

I agree - don't get me wrong... But like it or not Miro is part of the infrastructure that makes up Mambo as a whole. Miro was the entity that stepped up right alongside the rest of the community through the Connolly debacle. I know this isn't just a simple case of "taking the ball and going home", or personality clashes. I've been around for years and know every member of the dev team in one capacity or another. I know that the decision to start OSM wasn't made lightly or hastily.

I am just hoping against hope that this could all be resolved with communication - which neither side seems to be willing to do.

Miro handled this wrong - and their current spin campaign against the dev team only adds to the comedy of errors that's occurred here. I recognize that. But I also recognize that both sides (whether people see it or not) have contributed much to the project over the past 4 years, and stepped up for each other when times got tough. Something has to be said for that - and till now it hasn't come up.

I think - and this is just my own humble little opinion - that if there were any desire on either side to keep Mambo as the popular, well-known CMS that everyone here has worked hard on (in whatever way) in one piece, we'd find a way just like we did with any other obstacle that crossed our paths.

Everything being posted is almost all speculation - we have very little tangible information to work with. And we are being forced to pick a side... "you're with us or against us" is the thought du jour.

I'm finding it hard to just let it all go down the toilet without *some* kind of last ditch attempt to find a common ground. This all reminds me of the NHL lockout the past 14 months or so - but even those knuckleheads got together and hammered something out that was good for everyone. I'm hoping we'd be able to do the same thing - but it almost seems like I'm alone in thinking that struggling for continuity rather than divisiveness is a good thing.

I'm fully behind the core team - I've said that. I agree with their decision in prinicple - I've said that too. But I don't think there is anything wrong in trying - now that some time has passed - to see if there is ANY possible meeting ground that everyone can be happy with and we can see Mambo flourish as it has all these years with the now-former arrangement.

If we can get the core team to revisit the possibility of working with Miro, and we can get Miro to realize their arbitrary stance did more to destroy Mambo than help it - MAYBE we can bandage this thing up and get back to what's important.

If OSM continues on this path - they WILL develop bigger and better releases, and it will be better than anything that could be developed by a "new" dev team at Miro. We KNOW that - it's a given. The core team here are the ones that have worked hard to give us what we're all here for in the first place.

But whatever the new name is for the package, it's still the same award-winning Mambo we've all come to love - just with a different mask (name). And it - along with any other forks or "versions" will carry the stigma this whole event has caused. As it stands now, both sides will need a huge public relations campaign just to maintain what's left of status quo.

The whole Connolly fiasco (in the end) put Mambo in a very positive light - Mambo was the "poster child" for open source in many industry circles. A lot of hard work went into the infrastructure that elevated Mambo to its current (former?) status. Unless someone stands up for that, it'll all have been for nothing. There's more to Mambo than just code - a big part of that is familiarity. That all goes out the window if there is no willingness to at least entertain the idea of reconciliation.

I know I'm probably alone here in that thought, but it's what I believe. I'm merely voicing my opinion that it's a shame all of that hard work has to go out the window... Moving forward with the code and a new name will be successful, I'm sure - but it's going to come at a price. I don't know if anyone realizes that yet.

With that said, it'll be the last I say on this particular topic as I don't want to ever be accused of beating what is most likely a dead horse. I'm with the Core all the way - but I wish things were different, because there's more than just hours of programming at stake here.

I mostly agree with you rejuvinet. I don't see all the previous hard work as being for nothing though. I give credit where its due and will always be thankful that Miro released Mambo as OS (I think I said that somewhere else here). But, there is no doubt about it - Miro did something so profoundly stupid that the good-will they previously had seems to have disintegrated. I give them full credit for that too! What is hard to get across in a post is that while I consider their actions incredibly stupid, I bear them no ill will. It makes me very sad to see the mamboserver forum disintegrate and I have my doubts about Miro's ability to regroup and move on from this debacle. I have no doubts about the core teams ability to move on though.

The hard work is not for nothing though as it is the contributions of many, many people - including past and present devs, the various teams, and yes, even Miro, which has brought Mambo to where it is. Miro headed in a different direction and, perhaps misguidedly (as opposed to intentionally), didn't try to take the community with them. What happened in the background with the dev team is not something I am not willing to speculate on. But I do believe the time for reconciliation is long past - too much water under the bridge now. Miro has gone on the attack against the dev team but the bad-mouthing has not been reciprocal. Any attempt to bandage now would be just that, a bandage, not a healing of wounds and I really doubt that there would be community buy-in. Too many of us got kicked out by Miro to want to have anything more to do with them. I just feel it is more productive to look forward with confidence than to spend time revisiting what has happened and is now past.

Elpie wrote:
I mostly agree with you rejuvinet. I don't see all the previous hard work as being for nothing though. I give credit where its due and will always be thankful that Miro released Mambo as OS (I think I said that somewhere else here). But, there is no doubt about it - Miro did something so profoundly stupid that the good-will they previously had seems to have disintegrated. I give them full credit for that too! What is hard to get across in a post is that while I consider their actions incredibly stupid, I bear them no ill will. It makes me very sad to see the mamboserver forum disintegrate and I have my doubts about Miro's ability to regroup and move on from this debacle. I have no doubts about the core teams ability to move on though.

The hard work is not for nothing though as it is the contributions of many, many people - including past and present devs, the various teams, and yes, even Miro, which has brought Mambo to where it is. Miro headed in a different direction and, perhaps misguidedly (as opposed to intentionally), didn't try to take the community with them. What happened in the background with the dev team is not something I am not willing to speculate on. But I do believe the time for reconciliation is long past - too much water under the bridge now. Miro has gone on the attack against the dev team but the bad-mouthing has not been reciprocal. Any attempt to bandage now would be just that, a bandage, not a healing of wounds and I really doubt that there would be community buy-in. Too many of us got kicked out by Miro to want to have anything more to do with them. I just feel it is more productive to look forward with confidence than to spend time revisiting what has happened and is now past.

Point taken, and I definitely see your view on things. I too am very disappointed and more than just a little insulted that Miro carried on the way they did with no regard for how their actions affected the community or how they showed their true view on what the community means to them or the project.

I wouldn't even begin to speculate on anything - there is way too little information from either side. Just some trash-talk on both sides (albeit from Miro it comes from their corporate representatives, whereas here the devs have taken the high road - which I commend them for - and the "trash-talk" comes from a handful of very disgruntled community members)... You may be right that the time for reconciliation has passed and that any effort would be fruitless - but has anyone tried?

Let's put it this way - I was reviewing some posts on both the old forums and Mambers.com (surprisingly NOTHING is happening over there ) over the past few days - which is one of the biggest reasons I am hoping for some kind of resolution - and this very scenario was being discussed by some people not more than 6 months ago. This EXACT scenario.... It was eerie....

And the people who posted in support of Mambo, Miro, and the Core said things along the lines of "... revisit this thread in a year and see how wrong you are about Mambo's longevity..." Not even a year yet and look at where we are - Mambo as we know it is all but dead, unless both sides and we, as a community, are willing to entertain the notion of mending fences.

Yes, yes - I know... The Core is here, and it will be the same development project but with a different name... I'm all for that and will follow the Core wherever they lead us. But it's not the Mambo we all fought tooth and nail for the past 4 years or so... It's not the Mambo we all passionately defended when the Brian Connollys of the world attacked our beloved project.

There's always been drama of some sort in this community for as long as I can remember - I've been at the center of some of it at times - and we've always moved forward. Despite whatever lumps I took in this community, I have always been a staunch supporter of *Mambo*. Call me nostalgic, but for every trial and tribulation this community has gone through, the best always shines through in the end. And THAT'S what I'm hoping will prevail again - though it seems minds have been made up already....

Have we already forgotten how we ALL stuck together when Mambo as a whole was being attacked? Miro, the Core, and the community - we all fought together and Mambo became better for it. You're right, Elpie - Miro acted incredibly stupid in how they dealt with this, and they made matters worse by not only excluding the community that made Mambo what it is now, but started banning and censoring dissent. But not very long ago we were all united for one common cause. We're just going to forget all of that because Miro screwed up royally with how they handled the Foundation fiasco?

Is there REALLY absolutely no way we can at the very least entertain a possibility of reconciliation? Do we give the nay-sayers we fought united against that called for Mambo to rest in pieces a chance - and reason - to gloat without one last shot at proving them wrong?

Here! Here! Well said. From my point of view we (The Community) deserve to know with confidence that the DevTeam has explored every possibility of resolving this without a fork. My complaints all along have been that I am not convinced that has occurred. In fact, I rather believe the opposite...

Folks, the DevTeam may be great programmers, but frankly, I am not convinced they have the administrative skills, the PR skills, or the management skills to take this product forward as a viable enterprise at the level we had reached.

A Foundation (of some sort) is a solid step towards creating an infrastructure that supports a DevTeam. A proper Foundation has in place mechanisms that let the Community make decisions and set the course -- it is not dominated by one group -- it is OURS. Let's not forget, it works for: Mozilla, GNOME, UBUNTU (and mind you the latter is a whoooooole lot less transparent than the Mambo Foundation and completely dominated by a corporate -- FYI), and others.

The decision to abandon all infrastructure and the brand -- with no apparent plan, no mechanism for maintaining the advantages we've built up over the years -- is, IMHO, foolhardy and ill-conceived. Why on Earth sd we turn our back on all the hard work that got us here?

Please don't tell me yet again to "trust the DevTeam". I'm a businessman. I have clients who are asking questions I cannot answer. I have seen my website traffic plummet, my enquiries dry up -- all because of this poorly planned rebellion.

So come on DevTeam, convince you've tried to reconcoile. Convince us you've exhaused all reasonable avenues of resolution -- don't just hijack the ship and expect us to go along for the ride or jump overboard. Do that and I'm there.

So come on DevTeam, convince you've tried to reconcoile. Convince us you've exhaused all reasonable avenues of resolution -- don't just hijack the ship and expect us to go along for the ride or jump overboard. Do that and I'm there.

What about any of the statements we have made implies that we did not explore all reasonable avenues?

This is a much harder route for us.. none of us are paid, and we are devoting hrs and hrs of work to safeguard the project/community.

The decision to abandon all infrastructure and the brand -- with no apparent plan, no mechanism for maintaining the advantages we've built up over the years -- is, IMHO, foolhardy and ill-conceived. Why on Earth sd we turn our back on all the hard work that got us here?

Oh, we have plans.. just you wait.... infrastructure will be better than ever.

OK Rico tell me this - have you looked at what the "Foundation" were proposing?

Could you honestly say that their approach is one that would benefit the community that you claim to be championing?

Could you honestly look at their tatics and say that they haven't been underhanded?

I don't think anyone could look objectively at what Miro have done and not see a blatant grab for control that shows a total lack of respect for this community and its developers.

Please don't tell me yet again to "trust the DevTeam". I'm a businessman. I have clients who are asking questions I cannot answer. I have seen my website traffic plummet, my enquiries dry up -- all because of this poorly planned rebellion.

You're a businessman? Quell surprise. So are most of us. We've all put time and money into the Mambo basket, many of us here are experienced Mambo web designers. Enquiries dry up? Traffic plummet? You must be kidding me. What kind of site are you running? Nothing's changed for me. Most clients have no clue about the backend. Those that do are satisfyied with this very simple answer:

The dev team that has worked on this without any significant support for the last few years are still working on it, exactly the same as ever. There's a slight bump in delivery timeline for reorganisation, but that's about it.

The corporation who tried to wrest control over the project have no-one working on their version.

When you require someone to justify their actions you are in effect saying I do not trust you.
Rather than spend hours of time writing posts asking for answers that have been given within the current legal climate just understand this is an evolving situation.

When things get confusing and start to cause stress I have always found that the KIS method work. Keep It Simple. ( yes I find that works in my business too )

Simple Fact
Miro has placed Mambo under the control of a foundation
Miro has alienated the very people that made mambo what it was Dev Team, and the majority of the community
Miro banned and removed posts that it felt threatened its desires on Mambo

Core dev team has taken on a great deal of problems and work to move away from Miro
Core dev team has thus far not sensored these forums or people ( best I can tell)
core dev team have issued an open letter to the community and a FAQ that they seem to be holding true to

None of us are in a position to DEMAND anything. We have to evaluate the options that we have and choose.
While I wish it had not come to this, It has. There will be no kiss and make up. I think this has progressed beyond that. So as a business man, and a user thisseems simple. Choose the camp that has displayed the values you want to work with. To me that is a no brainer.

I did love the passion of the rejuvinet post. It said some things we all were thinking and feeling. But we are were we are. We can stay locked in fear and doubt, or move on using what we have and either join the foundation and help miro, or get behind these guys and help them. Because in doing so we help ourselves.

Elpie wrote:
The CMS is the same great CMS, nothing changed. Same team, same community, same peer support. It just had to be in a different place. Development has not stopped. We are waiting for a new release - yeah, what's new?

That remains to be seen, lady....

The point is not the loaded issue of a Miro foundation, the point is organization. Communication and organization are as big a quality factor as coding IMO. That is a valid issue even when the Miro foundation does not look like a good solution right now.

Personally, I have experience with developers hacking and coding on without sufficient linkage to marketing (customers), communication and project planning. The output is always too late, not good enough, too expensive and results in a lot of useless, time consuming finger-pointing.

I know the preference is a Bazaar, but any Bazaar is held at a designated place at a pre-determined time slot..or no Bazaar.

Last edited by Keane on Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Either you are with us, or you are with the Miro's"

George Bush - Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People, September 20, 2001
*modified*

tjay wrote:
I did love the passion of the rejuvinet post. It said some things we all were thinking and feeling. But we are were we are. We can stay locked in fear and doubt, or move on using what we have and either join the foundation and help miro, or get behind these guys and help them. Because in doing so we help ourselves.

Aww shucks... Thanks, TJay! LOL

But seriously - I think where all of the uncertainty is coming from is that we literally have NO information from either side. I've known most of the Core team - and many of the members here - for a long time, and despite my advocating for some sort of reconciliation, I trust that collectively they are doing the right thing if that's what they feel. There's no sense in banging my head against a wall, trying to get the two sides back together if there's, as you say, no "kiss and make up" in the foreseeable future.

But I stand behind my conviction - Mambo as a brand and as a community has gone through way too much to just let it drop like this. And the nay-sayers like Connolly, SCO-types, and critics of the open source movement can have their moment in the sun now that it's crystal clear that Mambo as we know it is dead. (Great - now I can expect another round of spammed "I told you so" messages from that moron like I did all weekend....)

I've said this before - I may not know the Core personally, but I know enough about each member that I can take at face value that creating OSM was a last resort. I'll accept that - I don't like it, but I'll accept that.

I just wish that we, as the community that made Mambo what it is, had more of a choice. And a better choice than "you're either with us or against us".... It's a shame, but I won't dwell on it anymore.

Instead, I'm going to start being pro-active. I trust Brad when he says there's plans in place, and that this will be better than it ever was. I believe that because the Core hasn't given me a reason to distrust them in the 4 years I've been with this project. So I'm going to start scouring the Forge, and contact project owners that have either abandoned their developments or are looking to "dump" them in the face of this rebellion and start trying to collect them. I'll start putting the word out that I'm looking for programmers to help carry them into this new project (after all, I'm a designer, not a programmer... )

If this new project is going to be as successful - or as recognized - as Mambo was then I'd suggest the PR starts now, even as we wait for plans to be revealed. It'll be somewhat ambiguous, but lets make the best of what's really a very unpleasant situation and shore up the uncertainty...

Too bad, though - for all we've gone through as a community, and for all the hard work and trials we went through as a group (Miro, Core, AND the community) in recent months, it is a shame that it's all forgotten about....

[quote]Instead, I'm going to start being pro-active. I trust Brad when he says there's plans in place, and that this will be better than it ever was. I believe that because the Core hasn't given me a reason to distrust them in the 4 years I've been with this project. So I'm going to start scouring the Forge, and contact project owners that have either abandoned their developments or are looking to "dump" them in the face of this rebellion and start trying to collect them. I'll start putting the word out that I'm looking for programmers to help carry them into this new project (after all, I'm a designer, not a programmer... )

If this new project is going to be as successful - or as recognized - as Mambo was then I'd suggest the PR starts now, even as we wait for plans to be revealed. It'll be somewhat ambiguous, but lets make the best of what's really a very unpleasant situation and shore up the uncertainty...
[quote]

That is dead on. Again showing the passion that I feel made Mambo what it was and will carry into the future with the success of the soon to be named CMS that will continue to confound its competition

Last edited by tjay on Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The top of the range is typical traffic. We (used to) average about 40 Mambo enquiries a month.

You see, our site is well-ranked for Mambo search strings and generates a significant amount of traffic and enquiries. Now, instead of enquiries from new clients, I get people asking what's happened to Mambo? and guess what, the sparse answers on your FAQ aren't what you need to tell a corporate client to inspire confidence. The negative press doesn't help much either.

From where I stand, the downside of this poorly planned rebellion is concrete.

Oh my god... you have GOT to be kidding me....! That's the best thought you have on the subject, is it?

You clearly haven't even taken the time to understand the stance I am expressing if that's what you think. Also, just FYI, my client base is not from within the community. I'm not a component/module developer -- I'm a site builder.

Let my clarify that this was by no means an act of censorship by the mods. I deleted them myself in frustration after getting flamed by some community members for telling the truth about the skills of some hosters, and on the same topic being told that members of the maintenance team are not allowed to express theire own opinion in the forums since this could easy get misunderstood as an official statement of the core team.

Why I left was another case. I got a very big workload from my business at that time, and you cannot work 80 hours a week as software developer and then add another 10 to 20 hours behind the keyboard for a hobby. I did not know that the workload would stay that high so long time, otherwise I would have officially resigned from the maintenance team then. Meanwhile I have been removed more or less silently from the maintenance team, and for me that is totally ok - guess I would have done the same if I had been in the situation to decide. Anyway it is too much for me to keep up development and support of facile forms AND do mambo mainenance at same time. I think mambo is in good hands without me, and facile forms need my attention much more.

Peter Koch wrote:
.. being told that members of the maintenance team are not allowed to express theire own opinion in the forums since this could easy get misunderstood as an official statement of the core team...

Thanks much Peter for clarification, and this above is the reason why I do not want to join the Doc Team anymore. As you all may have noticed, I like to voice my thoughts, sometimes a bit too strongly and often too..

rico! wrote:
....
As a professional web developer who has invested heavily in building a Mambo client base I am very displeased to see this. Right after a big win at LinuxWorld and on the heels of lots of great press I should be closing sales but instead I am having to now spend time with my clients explaining to them why they should still trust Mambo.

....

They'll hold this up as an example of how Open Source products are not stable, not professional, not to be trusted. You're playing straight into their hands...!)

The core team has a responsibility to be open with the community, just as Miro had a responsibility to open to the core dev team. Both obligations appear to have been given less than fair treatment, IMHO.

Nice put Rico! I totally agree on this as I am representing a new established small firm who has based future projects on mambo. Now there is a lot to work on in future relations. My opinion about the purpose of the set foundation, set by Miro is that they did it wrong, they have now spoiled it and the brand "mambo" suffers as well no matter who can and is going make benefits from it in the future. Fair treatment? Has the ex core developer team got a fair treatment by Miro? Has the users got a fair treatment by Miro and Mamboserver.com? Has the future users and 3dp developers got a fair treatment by Miro? I am afraid not.

Correct me if I am wrong but fundamentally the real foundation of Mambo has existed for a long time and it works quite well. That foundation is the community itself...

Best wishes for the new generation of a similar and better product from OSM
Norgaard

CE5_Agent wrote:
Honestly guys and gals Miro doesn't give us access to their commercial code so why should we develop components and modules for their sole profit? It's time to wake up an smell the coffee.

Good and important point! Sometimes it is important to make a choice also as a developer. By the way closing, hiding and compiling code is a typical 'to be in control' behaviour. Now why would anyone do that with an open source project?
Without saying they have just done it because they own the name Mambo.... but unfortunately this is also typical behaviour for companys dealing with 'stolen' intelectuality despite the fact in some ways its their property, ethically I believe it its not their property specially if you look at the included license. Saying it is their property is more of a legal formality to prevent exactly and strange enough exactly what they are doing. Developing components is hard work. Developing components so anyone else than the developer get some good payout at far sight is even harder... Would it be possible for you to gain a fair deal of profit with
a profiling company as Miro at the stearing house. Would that be possible for anyone with the right experience?
Just my five cents
Norgaard

Anyone else, like me, who loves the product and hates all this bullshit around it as much as me?

Great Pr stunt. We know every Tom, Dick and Harry by face now. Great clasroom pics of the developers and all their worker bees. Names have faces and, I guess, reps are build. Lamont, that nasty demon, was cast back into the dark well he came from.

Applause. Community yeah. Applause.

If Mambo was a pretty girl she would walk away from all this self-centered bs. No one pays attention toher anymore..too busy looking into the mirror.

Like the product, yeah....

"Either you are with us, or you are with the Miro's"

George Bush - Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People, September 20, 2001
*modified*