eunichron wrote on Sep 10, 2011, 20:22:So men are just supposed to stop being attracted to women?

Video games are fantasy, no matter how you slice it men and women both will be presented in the medium in an idealized, fantastical manner... and there is nothing wrong with that.

I would actually be interested to hear what homosexual men think of the portrayal of male characters in video games. Do they think that the typical male heroes of gaming improperly or unjustly represent the common male?

Or wait, did I just cross a line there?

Let's just quote from the article you should have read if you felt like commenting on it, which addresses your argument. "Normally at this point someone is jumping up and down pointing out that men are idealised to the point of ridiculousness in gaming, too. That’s often true – nobody’s going to say Marcus and Dom are normal looking-human beings – but you could hardly say they’re sexualised. This gallery of male characters is extremely light on broken anatomy, uncovered flesh, and grossly exaggerated sexual characteristics – although there’s a lot of perfect hair."

The whole homosexual opinion thing is lost on me. I don't see how it would be relevant. Let's get a Lesbian's opinion too, It doesn't change anything. They are just as capable of sexism as straight people.

Now let's just assume she wasn't writing opinionated drivel for a blog and realize that admitting she's attracted to heroes like Adam Jensen, Commander Shepherd, Isaac Clarke, Cole Phelps, and Marcus Fenix would destroy her entire argument. If you take what is typically an idealized male (let's use the tall dark and handsome paradigm), that is just about every male video game character ever created. Just because they're not scantily clad showing off their pectorals and waving their dicks around doesn't mean they aren't sexualized. Why aren't short fat ugly men in an uproar?

The homosexual male opinion came about because they are men who are attracted to men, and at least that might give them a bit more insight into sexism for or against male characters. It's really not that hard of a connection to make. As a heterosexual male I don't look at male protagonists in a sexual manner, but who knows, a homosexual man might, and he might be offended.

No one is saying characters can't be attractive, and no one is arguing that idealized characters get put into games, as my post and the article itself clearly stated. I also don't see how admitting a character is attractive invalidates an argument, either. Making an attractive character isn't sexism, and that doesn't mean they are sexualized. attractive=/=sexualized.Lets take the latest iteration of Lara Croft. She's attractive, but (especially compared to previous counterparts) she is far from sexualized.This is in contrast to say, Ivy from Soul caliber and Rachel from Ninja Gaiden who are both VERY sexualized. I find it disingenuous when you try to claim that the representation of men is just as skewed as that of women.

But, no one is arguing that men being sexualized in gaming is an issue, because it's not. It's hard to find examples, Though I'm sure we could. The list would pale in comparison to female characters though. If men were presented as women are in games I'm pretty sure your reaction to that would be 'That's really gay.' We don't need gay people to tell us if a male character is being hypersexualized or not, it's fairly obvious when you see it, just like with female characters.You don't need to be attraced to the subject to make those kind of judgements, the criteria is nearly identical.

-Let me also add, I'm not saying sexualized characters shouldn't exist, or don't have any place. They do, IF it's part of the character. But, when most of the female characters that exist in games are sexualized it's not part of the character, it's part of the culture.

eunichron wrote on Sep 10, 2011, 20:22:So men are just supposed to stop being attracted to women?

Video games are fantasy, no matter how you slice it men and women both will be presented in the medium in an idealized, fantastical manner... and there is nothing wrong with that.

I would actually be interested to hear what homosexual men think of the portrayal of male characters in video games. Do they think that the typical male heroes of gaming improperly or unjustly represent the common male?

Or wait, did I just cross a line there?

Let's just quote from the article you should have read if you felt like commenting on it, which addresses your argument. "Normally at this point someone is jumping up and down pointing out that men are idealised to the point of ridiculousness in gaming, too. That’s often true – nobody’s going to say Marcus and Dom are normal looking-human beings – but you could hardly say they’re sexualised. This gallery of male characters is extremely light on broken anatomy, uncovered flesh, and grossly exaggerated sexual characteristics – although there’s a lot of perfect hair."

The whole homosexual opinion thing is lost on me. I don't see how it would be relevant. Let's get a Lesbian's opinion too, It doesn't change anything. They are just as capable of sexism as straight people.

Jerykk wrote on Sep 10, 2011, 04:24:VGChartz doesn't cite any of their sources so I'd take their numbers with a grain of salt.

CD Projekt officially announced that the game sold 400k in the first week so those are the only numbers we have to work with. Hopefully it continued to sell well after that week but there's no way to say.

I do agree that Amnesia sold well, though. Apparently Frictional was only expecting around 200k so 400k was a very nice surprise.

As a side note, it's really interesting that its done so well. I seem to recall a little after release Frictional was concerned that it wasn't doing as well as they had hoped. perhaps it was the sales that helped get them to where they wanted to be, and beyond.

I don't think it would be that disappointing. Hard Reset has had about as much marketing as Amnesia and it's also a very niche, old-school, non-military shooter. Granted, it has a higher budget but I'd be really surprised if it sold more than 400k. Keep in mind that Witcher 2 has sold 400k thus far and that game's marketing, hype and budget easily surpass both Amnesia and Hard Reset combined.

Slashman wrote on Sep 10, 2011, 00:41:I'm glad we both agree that you have no more compelling evidence than I do. Which makes your crusade here all the more odd, because neither you nor I can find the droves of women who feel like they are being belittled and pushed out of gaming and are just waiting for the industry and community to change so they can take part.

We already have real evidence about women being belittled in gaming culture (this article, and the comments it generates is evidence of it, though it's obvious we disagree there)But, I can give you examples of people that feel this way, if you'd like. I certainly didn't make them up.http://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/ is a great example.like most blogs, this blog links up to other blogs of similar interest or discussion, on top of the commentors that frequent that blog itself, which (like all blogs, generally) are there because they like what the person is saying.

Once again, I'm talking about the culture, not any particular genre or game. I'm not talking about what games women do or don't like, that's up to the individual to decide. My example, and this thread were on right here, are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying companies need to spend any money on not being offensive, its free. I don't care if they worry about making sure women want to play an action game, and Im not saying they should cater to everyone. That's not what I'm talking about at all.

"Some ideal game which would not only have to be inoffensive to women, but attract them as well. While maintaining all the things that men like about FPSes or action/RPGs etc"This is kind of funny, because you're implying that games must be offensive to women for men to enjoy it. Or that making a game that appeals to both sexes is impossible. I'm fairly sure you didn't mean it that way, and there are games that certainly prove the contrary. It's not like when you go to a site like girlgamer the only thing they talk about is The Sims and MMO's

And again, anecdotal evidence is not worth much. I mean, most of the women I know who play games are more into RPGs and DOTA, but that doesn't mean they are all like that.

DangerDog wrote on Sep 9, 2011, 19:54:If nothing else DICE have the best sound system hands down.

Agreed. When I heard Bioware was having dice help them with the combat audio for ME3 I got pretty excited.

Side note: These little teaser trailers seem kinda silly when we've already seen so much footage. for how short it is with all the cuts it kinda makes me wonder why they just didn't release some screens

Slashman wrote on Sep 9, 2011, 15:15:I just wanted to point out something regarding a comment made earlier about women not playing games because they contain sexist material.

That is the LAST reason most women don't play the same types of games men do. For the most part...women don't get off on playing violent games.

They're mostly not interested in scoring headshots and gibbing things. They're not that into explosions and mass destruction. They just don't enjoy the same type of gaming.

I did know one girl who could clean my sorry butt up in Unreal and Quake...but even then...she mostly played because her boyfriend was a serious gamer.

Women will gladly play the Sims or WoW and other MMOs...but no matter how PC you make something like Half-Life 2, most women will just yawn when they see it(because the object is to shoot stuff).

Sure, let's just pretend gender roles in society doesn't influence any of that.

And while we're doing that...can we pretend that women and men are absolutely the same on every level and think in the same fundamental ways?

And as long as we're on a roll doing that...lets pretend that there are no examples, even in nature, where one sex of a species is naturally more aggressive than the other. You know...because sexism and gender stereotyping is prevalent in the animal kingdom and we need some reforms there as well. Friggin' hippos and buffaloes...

Now we're pretending that we are intellectually identical to buffaloes and visa versa?

Rolling with your example though, there are tons of examples in the animal kingdom of Males and Females not having the roles we(society) traditionally place on the sexes. For example look at seahorses, or look at how roles of penguins are shared. There is no evolutionary rule/recipe for gender roles. I only bring these examples up since you did. Stack that on top of animals just not having the same mental capacities we do and I don't find it to be relevant to the conversation.

That has everything to do with evolution though, and evolution and culture aren't the same thing.

Here is why your argument makes no sense:

You are suggesting that women don't like aggressive video games because they are full of sexism. I've shown women several games where sexism wasn't present but(and I know this is hard for you to accept), they just aren't interested.

They WILL play other games. Just not the type of games men tend to gravitate toward. You have it stuck in your head that this is due to pressure from society instead of the fact that there are differences in the things that they prefer versus the stuff that men like in games.

That's not to say that there aren't women who like the more violent genres that men usually stick to...but the reason for there not being more of them isn't because of societal pressure.

Hell I had a girlfriend who actually asked me for some suggestions on games...but then quickly followed it up with: 'But none of that violent shit you play...' I think she ended up getting the 'You don't know Jack' series.

She was as feminist as they come(maybe even to the extreme). That didn't make her like Unreal or Battlefield any more than the next girl.

I can pull out anecdotes to prove my point too, which all of your evidence is. That's why anecdotal evidence isn't acceptable.I provided a Link to a page about how they refused to let women attend a BF3 event, earlier in this thread. So clearly, these people exist. Let's not pretend they aren't there just because you don't have enough friends like that for you to believe it.

I never meant to imply there is some sort of floodgate waiting to burst open once games start being more sensitive towards women, but to pretend that culture doesn't influence these things, I consider silly. Once again I point at the last 100 years as my example of how gender roles are influenced by culture/society. Would more women play them though? Probably.

Getting back to your opening post, though. Is the implication it's okay to be as sexist as they want because you think there aren't enough women interested in the game? We should only worry about sexism in games that are marketed more towards both genders, or towards women?I'm not saying that all people should be enjoying all games, my real argument is that gaming culture has some sexism rooted in it that should be addressed, as there are women that enjoy games as well. - I understand that not every game will appeal to every person. Man or Woman. While I'd argue Gender roles in society certainly would influence this, I don't mean that (for example,) in a controlled environment devoid of all external influence, all men and women will start to enjoy BF3, which you seem to to took my argument as, Probably my fault for not being clear about the stance I am advocating.

Finally, I don't see where my arguments doesn't make sense. I can understand you not agreeing with them. But I'd say it is sound.

Slashman wrote on Sep 9, 2011, 15:15:I just wanted to point out something regarding a comment made earlier about women not playing games because they contain sexist material.

That is the LAST reason most women don't play the same types of games men do. For the most part...women don't get off on playing violent games.

They're mostly not interested in scoring headshots and gibbing things. They're not that into explosions and mass destruction. They just don't enjoy the same type of gaming.

I did know one girl who could clean my sorry butt up in Unreal and Quake...but even then...she mostly played because her boyfriend was a serious gamer.

Women will gladly play the Sims or WoW and other MMOs...but no matter how PC you make something like Half-Life 2, most women will just yawn when they see it(because the object is to shoot stuff).

Sure, let's just pretend gender roles in society doesn't influence any of that.

And while we're doing that...can we pretend that women and men are absolutely the same on every level and think in the same fundamental ways?

And as long as we're on a roll doing that...lets pretend that there are no examples, even in nature, where one sex of a species is naturally more aggressive than the other. You know...because sexism and gender stereotyping is prevalent in the animal kingdom and we need some reforms there as well. Friggin' hippos and buffaloes...

Now we're pretending that we are intellectually identical to buffaloes and visa versa?

Rolling with your example though, there are tons of examples in the animal kingdom of Males and Females not having the roles we(society) traditionally place on the sexes. For example look at seahorses, or look at how roles of penguins are shared. There is no evolutionary rule/recipe for gender roles. I only bring these examples up since you did. Stack that on top of animals just not having the same mental capacities we do and I don't find it to be relevant to the conversation.

That has everything to do with evolution though, and evolution and culture aren't the same thing.

Creston wrote on Sep 8, 2011, 18:26:By saying it's a gaming culture problem, you're basically saying that it's because these people play games, they are therefore assholes to women.

That's a pretty big stretch and a ridiculous conclusion to come to. Gamers shouting epithets or using questionable language at each other isn't exactly something new, whether it's people calling each other fags on Xbox Live or a gamer proclaiming how he "raped" someone else at any other game out there.

Again, this is a SMALL SUBSET of gamers. Not every gamer does that. In fact, other than the mouthbreathing imbeciles on Xbox live (which in and of themselves are only a small subset of gamers), it really doesn't happen very much at all. Stop saying that this is what gaming culture is.

SOME gamers are assholes and call each other fag. The large majority just plays games. Same as in the rest of society. There is no great "ill" that infests gaming culture and makes it somehow different from anything else. Anyone that claims that is full of shit.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed, outside of maybe Jack Thompson and Fox News, that it's the games making those people act like that rather than being a problem with the community members who do it and the culture of the gaming community that, for the most part, allows it.

Which is exactly what I'm saying. It's a group of PEOPLE who are doing it. This "joke" was ONE GUY doing it.

This is a perfect example (on top of the example we're discussing, of course) about what I'm talking about when referring to the culture.

I never said everyone is doing it, and I felt I made it clear that I know that everyone isn't guilty, but that doesn't mean it's not part of the culture. Look at the civil rights movement. Racism was culturally excepted, but that doesn't mean there weren't people that didn't agree with it, and acted to change it.

Creston wrote on Sep 8, 2011, 18:26:By saying it's a gaming culture problem, you're basically saying that it's because these people play games, they are therefore assholes to women.

That's a pretty big stretch and a ridiculous conclusion to come to. Gamers shouting epithets or using questionable language at each other isn't exactly something new, whether it's people calling each other fags on Xbox Live or a gamer proclaiming how he "raped" someone else at any other game out there. I don't think anyone has ever claimed, outside of maybe Jack Thompson and Fox News, that it's the games making those people act like that rather than being a problem with the community members who do it and the culture of the gaming community that, for the most part, allows it.

Draugr wrote on Sep 8, 2011, 16:27:Right, because games like Bayonetta, DOA, and Lollipop chainsaw aren't all there just waiting to illustrate my point. They might not be offensive in the same fashion, but it does help illustrate Sexism/views of women in gaming culture.

Don't forget to add games like Metroid, Beyond Good and Evil, Mirrors Edge and Half Life 2, showing such sexism/views of women in gaming culture. Just to name a few more.Congraz, your able to single out a few games to try to make everything fit only your view. I can single things out to and they can show you a completely different view. Its like everything in life, yes some can offer more "crude" concepts of people and treat them like objects, but the fact is, it's not just against women. For every woman-pinup there are just as many men-pinup (like "Firefighter Steve")

Congrats. you totally took what i said out of context, Lets take a look at the sentence that immediately followed from what you quoted, shall we?

"The list could be bigger, but that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure we could list games that do not suffer from such things as well of course. I don't mean to imply everyone is guilty, but it is part of the culture."

So thanks for saying something I already said.I think if we stacked the lists together sadly the List, ME/ME2, HL2, Mirror's Edge, Metroid is on would be dwarfed by the other list. this feeds into my point

Also, comparing men to women in the pin-up categories is a battle you've already lost. Just go to any gaming con. When I see the men being represented the way the women are then I'll say I was wrong.If you're reffering to stereotypical characters, then once again the list of stereo type female characters to stereotyped male characters is, once again, much longer.l

Feel free to make that list though, and I'll show you mine. Unfortunately, I don't think it'd be much bigger than the titles you've already talked about (though it would be bigger, no doubt)

Siward wrote on Sep 8, 2011, 16:20:Eyeroll. Leave it up to the cadre of privileged, ignorant commenters on this website to not even understand feminism, and then think that somehow believing in equal rights makes a person a pansy.

It's a lot easier to be an ignorant, privileged, pissant bully than it is to stand up for what's right. Please, go back to the 19th century where your prejudice belongs.

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!!!! Look guys here's one now!

I love it when the offended-by-everything, humor-less weenies come out of the woodwork every time a thread like this comes along. It gives me so much entertainment!

And then on the flipside, we have the people who go "OMG, ITS A JOKE" even though they don't have some crystal ball that reveals to them the intent of the person who wrote it.

We can't assume everyone telling a racist/sexist/bigoted joke is doing it with tongue-in-cheek. Sometimes they are just racist, sexist, or bigoted. I'm not calling it one way or another, because I don't know any better, If I did KNOW the intention, and it wasnt rooted in bigotry, I'd be the first to defend this person to the death.

Certainly not the smartest move though, you're at work and the professionalism should be there, If he stood up in his office and said 'feminist whore,' to everyone on the floor he'd at LEAST get to go have a chat with HR. that right there should tell you it doesn't belong in your work.In this regard, it's just a stupid move on the persons part who put it in there.

I agree with you for the most part, it certainly not exclusive to gamers, but I disagree with you that the problem isn't any worse in gaming culture. I'm not saying its some huge pressing issue that must be addressed immediately, but I think it is clearly there.

Am I saying there is a problem with games that are all about TnA? nah, there is room for that, but when most of the games featuring women are usually presented in that format? It's Stale, to say the least.

Finally, I never meant to imply gaming is somehow the last bastion for Misogyny, it's still alive and well in other places of society, let's not make THAT mistake.

Draugr wrote on Sep 8, 2011, 15:17:Things like this make me embarrassed to be a gamer sometimes. The sexism in the gaming culture is the one thing I'd love to see take a hike, more than anything. That will take time, of course.

Also, why would fox news care about Women's equality? When did that happen? Pretty sure it's never unless you happen to be a Republican woman running for office.

I understand this thing were talking about in the game wasn't meant for primetime, but I think it is indicative of the 'gaming cultures' view of women (generally speaking of course, I understand that not all gamers would be guilty of this.)

Yeah, compared to the horrors of being called a nasty name in gaming code, the overall lack of fair pay, public mocking, glass ceilings, and instances of sexual harassment/assault women in other mainstream male dominated fields (Sports Journalism in this example) have to deal with seem like a blessing.

The gaming industry truly disgusts me.

My bad, I forgot the rule on being incapable of caring about more than one kind of injustice simultaneously

EddieTheHack wrote on Sep 8, 2011, 15:27:That a programmer had the stones to include that raises the games standing in my mind. This political correctness garbage really has begun to cross the line into absurdity. Besides, its not like any feminist whores will ever even see this to be by offended by it - what with all the not making sandwiches and time spent horizontally lobbying politicos.

Yeah, while they were at it they should have made the black character have an 'Angry n*gger' achievement! THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SOOOOOOO AWESOME. RIGHT?

If you'll notice, this wasn't supposed to be in the game at all. and is actually only located in some debug info. This is also on a version of the game that wasn't even supposed to see public consumption, they just really bungled their steam launch.

If things had gone smoothly we'd all be none the wiser, I guess these aren't the crusaders you're looking for.

Draugr wrote on Sep 8, 2011, 15:17:but I think it is indicative of the 'gaming cultures' view of women (generally speaking of course, I understand that not all gamers would be guilty of this.)

Yeah, no. It's ONE MAN'S view of women. No need to sweep "gaming culture" under the rug with one guy who's hung up because his mommy didn't hug him enough as a toddler.

Creston

Right, because games like Bayonetta, DOA, and Lollipop chainsaw aren't all there just waiting to illustrate my point. They might not be offensive in the same fashion, but it does help illustrate Sexism/views of women in gaming culture. The list could be bigger, but that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure we could list games that do not suffer from such things as well of course. I don't mean to imply everyone is guilty, but it is part of the culture.

Women make up a decent portion of people who game, when they see an article like this all and the responses it generates, it doesn't surprise me at all that they try to stay hidden. Well, that and if they did speak up and anyone caught a whiff of them being a woman they instantly get harassed, (Which I suppose brings us full circle to gaming culture in relation to women.)

I don't mean to imply everyone is guilty of this by any means, but I think it is certainly part of the culture and something I'd like to see changed.