This is one of the more bizarre, somewhat strange things in Protestantism that has puzzled me for quite a while--even back when I was a Protestant. Why exactly do some of them use grape-juice--usually Welches--instead of wine for when they have "Communion" or "The Lord's Supper"? Nowhere does the Bible indicate that grape-juice was used instead of wine--which should kill the concept of grape-juice for them altogether since they adhere to Sola Scriptura--yet many of them adhere to this odd notion that Jesus gave them unfermented grape juice. That actually would have been impossible because wine starts fermenting the moment the skin is broken on the grapes--the practice of stopping fermentation to get modern grape-juice like we have now wasn't discovered until the 19th-20th century when Welch's discovered it. Plus, the whole total temperence thing in Protestantism is frightening because it seems like another similarity they have with Islam--which probably influenced them in one way or another.

This is one of the more bizarre, somewhat strange things in Protestantism that has puzzled me for quite a while--even back when I was a Protestant. Why exactly do some of them use grape-juice--usually Welches--instead of wine for when they have "Communion" or "The Lord's Supper"? Nowhere does the Bible indicate that grape-juice was used instead of wine--which should kill the concept of grape-juice for them altogether since they adhere to Sola Scriptura--yet many of them adhere to this odd notion that Jesus gave them unfermented grape juice. That actually would have been impossible because wine starts fermenting the moment the skin is broken on the grapes--the practice of stopping fermentation to get modern grape-juice like we have now wasn't discovered until the 19th-20th century when Welch's discovered it. Plus, the whole total temperence thing in Protestantism is frightening because it seems like another similarity they have with Islam--which probably influenced them in one way or another.

You have any evidence to prove the Protestant-Islam connection, or is this just another episode of your incessant Protestant-bashing?

Well, in this case, you seem to be using "some Protestants" as a less than precise term for "Evangelicals."

What you have to understand about evangelicalism is that it is a natively American religion, which lends it a distinctly American cultural character; hence the almost messianic attachment to this country as a "city upon a hill" and their zeal for the supposed sanctity of the Founding Fathers and the "Christian principles" upon which they founded "the greatest nation in the history of the earth" blah blah blah...

All of that is by way of introduction, because one key cultural trait of Americans, perhaps a defining one, is an ignorance of cultures other than their own and history from more than about fifty to a hundred years ago that is matched only by their apathy toward those topics.

In short, I strongly suspect the majority of evangelicals simply have no idea that "grape juice" as we know it today didn't exist when Christ walked the earth.

Besides all which, Americans are also possessed of a remarkable chronological snobbery. I wouldn't be surprised to hear an evangelical say that "Jesus may have drunk alcohol, but now that we have pasteurization, we don't have to do that any more." Basically, Jesus worked with what He had and we can improve on the matter He chose for the sacrament.

It's goofy, but hey, when you try to reshape a two-thousand-year-old religion in the image of a two-hundred-year-old country as perceived by a people whose knowledge of history farther back than fifty years fades into a vague vision of "the olden days," it's going to end up goofy.

Please disagree with us, but please do not do so in a mocking tone. It is not the Lord's Kiddie Table, it is reverently remembering the Lord's death for our sins, until he comes.

Some churches use "crackers", as you put is, because they believe that the Passover meal was celebrated with unleavened bread.

The shift to some beverage other than wine arose (as far as I know) out of the 19th century so-called "Temperance" movement, which mutated into a total-abstinence movement. It has been called an "American heresy". Here in Britain it first caught on most strongly among the Primitive Methodists and gradually spread to other Evangelical bodies, but not to those within the Church of England.

As an earlier post says, it goes beyond sola scriptura and dominical history, and suggests that many who profess to believe in sola scriptura in fact do not do so at all, but have that doctrine embedded within their own tradition, just as Orthodox do - except that many of those Evangelicals pretend it is not so. Non-alcoholic communion beverages are not the only example of this.

I was talking some while ago with a convert from a Moslem background, who said that the moment when he felt he had truly broken with Islam and become a Christian was when he had his first drink of beer. The earlier post is correct in pointing out that Islam is a teetotal religion, whereas the religion of the OT and the NT is not.

However, in re sola scriptura in all this - although I believe the wine should be wine and not some alternative symbol, nonetheless I am also aware that the scriptures do not say it must be wine, but refer to "the fruit of the vine" and the "cup", so there is not really an explicit contradiction here.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 07:31:15 AM by David Young »

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

However, in re sola scriptura in all this - although I believe the wine should be wine and not some alternative symbol, nonetheless I am also aware that the scriptures do not say it must be wine, but refer to "the fruit of the vine" and the "cup", so there is not really an explicit contradiction here.

'cept that there was no way the ancients could have kept grape juice in warm climates like they have in Israel. The grape juice starts fermenting within no-time.

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"My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me"-Benjamin Disraeli

This is one of the more bizarre, somewhat strange things in Protestantism that has puzzled me for quite a while--even back when I was a Protestant. Why exactly do some of them use grape-juice--usually Welches--instead of wine for when they have "Communion" or "The Lord's Supper"? Nowhere does the Bible indicate that grape-juice was used instead of wine--which should kill the concept of grape-juice for them altogether since they adhere to Sola Scriptura--yet many of them adhere to this odd notion that Jesus gave them unfermented grape juice. That actually would have been impossible because wine starts fermenting the moment the skin is broken on the grapes--the practice of stopping fermentation to get modern grape-juice like we have now wasn't discovered until the 19th-20th century when Welch's discovered it. Plus, the whole total temperence thing in Protestantism is frightening because it seems like another similarity they have with Islam--which probably influenced them in one way or another.

A Good question.A number of protestant church in Hong Kong use Lucozade instead of wine in holy communion

Temperance movements are not found only in some groups with a Protestant background and there is nothing related to Islam about it. The over consumption of alcoholic beverages can be part of severe social problems for some people. Examples of people/groups who advocate(d) either reduced or total abstinence from alcohol can be found in many places such as

Sri Lanka with was from Buddhist roots http://www.sundaytimes.lk/101003/Editorial.html

And I've read references to one in Australia during WWI which had early closing of taverns as part of wartime austerity, which sounds political/economic to me.

But many of these were started because of the serious social problems and misery that occurred with people, particularly the poor and the working classes, were consuming lots of cheap alcohol such as gin in England starting in the late 17th century. We're not talking about a glass of wine with a meal, one beer with a friend or sherry in the afternoon, but heavy consumption with results of disease, abuse, violence, crime and misery. Here's a starting bit on the "Gin Craze" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gin_CrazeAlso, as with many cases of selling distilled beverages, let's just say that purity of product could be compromised with substances that could be pretty bad, so along with being drunk there were dangers of being poisoned.

Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a dentist and a Methodist, did come up with a way of pasteurizing grape juice so that they could have the Lord's Supper without intoxicating beverages.

So things are more complicated than the OP might indicate.

Ebor

« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 10:44:02 AM by Ebor »

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Please disagree with us, but please do not do so in a mocking tone. It is not the Lord's Kiddie Table,

It is kind of hard to take protestants seriously on this issue. I was told by more than one Protestant minister from anti drinking churches that the wine (specifically water to wine) wasn't really wine. It was really something else with no alcohol in it. Just a mistranslation or something like that. I'm sure you can find the concept online easily.

Early in America alcoholic drink was approved of by most protestant churches. It was produced by many of the parishoners(it was more profitable than just selling the corn as is). As shipping and production measures made alcohol more available and abundant so did the rise of alcoholism. As this destroyed many a family the temperance (moderation) movements began and the residue of their influence is what still lives on in the protestant church today.

Some churches use "crackers", as you put is, because they believe that the Passover meal was celebrated with unleavened bread.

There really is no need for the quotation marks around "crackers" in this context (unless you're pointing out an Americanization- I realize you blokes in the UK have never quite gotten used to our abuse of the word "biscuit" and refusal to use words like "lorry"). Many American Evangelical churches do use unsalted crackers in place of bread. Not matzah nor unleavened bread baked specifically for Communion but actual, honest-to-goodness soda crackers.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Please disagree with us, but please do not do so in a mocking tone. It is not the Lord's Kiddie Table,

It is kind of hard to take protestants seriously on this issue. I was told by more than one Protestant minister from anti drinking churches that the wine (specifically water to wine) wasn't really wine. It was really something else with no alcohol in it. Just a mistranslation or something like that. I'm sure you can find the concept online easily.

Please disagree with us, but please do not do so in a mocking tone. It is not the Lord's Kiddie Table,

It is kind of hard to take protestants seriously on this issue. I was told by more than one Protestant minister from anti drinking churches that the wine (specifically water to wine) wasn't really wine. It was really something else with no alcohol in it. Just a mistranslation or something like that. I'm sure you can find the concept online easily.

Early in America alcoholic drink was approved of by most protestant churches. It was produced by many of the parishoners(it was more profitable than just selling the corn as is). As shipping and production measures made alcohol more available and abundant so did the rise of alcoholism. As this destroyed many a family the temperance (moderation) movements began and the residue of their influence is what still lives on in the protestant church today.

This Chuck Northrop seems to have a lot of vinegar in his blood against the consumption of wine.

This is one of the more bizarre, somewhat strange things in Protestantism that has puzzled me for quite a while--even back when I was a Protestant. Why exactly do some of them use grape-juice--usually Welches--instead of wine for when they have "Communion" or "The Lord's Supper"? Nowhere does the Bible indicate that grape-juice was used instead of wine--which should kill the concept of grape-juice for them altogether since they adhere to Sola Scriptura--yet many of them adhere to this odd notion that Jesus gave them unfermented grape juice. That actually would have been impossible because wine starts fermenting the moment the skin is broken on the grapes--the practice of stopping fermentation to get modern grape-juice like we have now wasn't discovered until the 19th-20th century when Welch's discovered it. Plus, the whole total temperence thing in Protestantism is frightening because it seems like another similarity they have with Islam--which probably influenced them in one way or another.

You already answered your question, you just didn't know it. Look into the history of the founder of Welch grape juice. Check out his religious back-ground.

The Temperance movement of the 19th century is the reason why the more fundamentalist protestants don't use real wine. The more older protestant groups like your Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans use wine. I can't really say for the Methodists. Some may while others may not. Some Baptists use real wine, but most seem to only want to use grape juice.

But yeah, you will see a change among several protestant groups in the 19th century in this regard. If you ever read the book "In His Steps", then you will know why many went in this direction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_His_Steps (in his steps)

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

This is one of the more bizarre, somewhat strange things in Protestantism that has puzzled me for quite a while--even back when I was a Protestant. Why exactly do some of them use grape-juice--usually Welches--instead of wine for when they have "Communion" or "The Lord's Supper"? Nowhere does the Bible indicate that grape-juice was used instead of wine--which should kill the concept of grape-juice for them altogether since they adhere to Sola Scriptura--yet many of them adhere to this odd notion that Jesus gave them unfermented grape juice. That actually would have been impossible because wine starts fermenting the moment the skin is broken on the grapes--the practice of stopping fermentation to get modern grape-juice like we have now wasn't discovered until the 19th-20th century when Welch's discovered it. Plus, the whole total temperence thing in Protestantism is frightening because it seems like another similarity they have with Islam--which probably influenced them in one way or another.

You already answered your question, you just didn't know it. Look into the history of the founder of Welch grape juice. Check out his religious back-ground.

The Temperance movement of the 19th century is the reason why the more fundamentalist protestants don't use real wine. The more older protestant groups like your Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans use wine. I can't really say for the Methodists. Some may while others may not. Some Baptists use real wine, but most seem to only want to use grape juice.

But yeah, you will see a change among several protestant groups in the 19th century in this regard. If you ever read the book "In His Steps", then you will know why many went in this direction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_His_Steps (in his steps)

Some snake-handling Pentecostals use both wine and grape juice; you get to pick which one you want to consume.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Early in America alcoholic drink was approved of by most protestant churches. It was produced by many of the parishoners(it was more profitable than just selling the corn as is). As shipping and production measures made alcohol more available and abundant so did the rise of alcoholism. As this destroyed many a family the temperance (moderation) movements began and the residue of their influence is what still lives on in the protestant church today.

Historically with water in many places not being safe to drink it was common for some form of processing such as the making of small beer or ale to be done to have something safer to drink. For example records of a breakfast of bread and ale didn't indicate alcoholism and it was something that all ages drank. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/food_and_drink_in_medieval_engla.htm

It was with the development of distillation that strong alcoholic beverages became common and with the ready availability (as you have noted) serious social problems grew. In some ways the consumption of whiskey or gin by the poor and lower classes could be seen as a sort of "self-medication" from daily misery, but with with dreadful consequences for individuals and families.

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I was told by more than one Protestant minister from anti drinking churches that the wine (specifically water to wine) wasn't really wine. It was really something else with no alcohol in it.

I heard that back in the 1960s in my Methodist past. For the particular man who said it (and of course believed it), his view of wine was more important to him than his view of scripture. A far cry from John Wesley!

Quote

the temperance (moderation) movements began and the residue of their influence is what still lives on in the protestant church today.

And, of course, temperance means moderation, and is laid upon us all, in both food and drink. And there is no reason why an individual should not voluntarily decide on a personal practice of total abstinence, as a decision taken before the Lord. What is wrong and unbiblical is imposing something on all believers which has no place in scripture and is a 19th century innovation. If we are going to make additions to scripture compulsory, we might as well become Orthodox.

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

I was told by more than one Protestant minister from anti drinking churches that the wine (specifically water to wine) wasn't really wine. It was really something else with no alcohol in it.

I heard that back in the 1960s in my Methodist past. For the particular man who said it (and of course believed it), his view of wine was more important to him than his view of scripture. A far cry from John Wesley!

Quote

the temperance (moderation) movements began and the residue of their influence is what still lives on in the protestant church today.

And, of course, temperance means moderation, and is laid upon us all, in both food and drink. And there is no reason why an individual should not voluntarily decide on a personal practice of total abstinence, as a decision taken before the Lord. What is wrong and unbiblical is imposing something on all believers which has no place in scripture and is a 19th century innovation. If we are going to make additions to scripture compulsory, we might as well become Orthodox.

Apparently you've had little to do with the WCTU which had some very forceful members in the Free Methodist Church where I was raised.

Back in those days, I once heard it explained that the miracle of turning the water into wine (BTW, it's not called "miracle" in Scripture, but "sign") was simply that Jesus asked for water to be put into jars that because they were porous, still had wine in them and this refill resulted in a less strong (i.e. minimal to zero alcohol content) and therefore more palatable wine. It's really amazing that some people will deny the clear words of Scripture in order to justify their own point.

Well, in this case, you seem to be using "some Protestants" as a less than precise term for "Evangelicals."

What you have to understand about evangelicalism is that it is a natively American religion, which lends it a distinctly American cultural character; hence the almost messianic attachment to this country as a "city upon a hill" and their zeal for the supposed sanctity of the Founding Fathers and the "Christian principles" upon which they founded "the greatest nation in the history of the earth" blah blah blah...

All of that is by way of introduction, because one key cultural trait of Americans, perhaps a defining one, is an ignorance of cultures other than their own and history from more than about fifty to a hundred years ago that is matched only by their apathy toward those topics.

In short, I strongly suspect the majority of evangelicals simply have no idea that "grape juice" as we know it today didn't exist when Christ walked the earth.

Besides all which, Americans are also possessed of a remarkable chronological snobbery. I wouldn't be surprised to hear an evangelical say that "Jesus may have drunk alcohol, but now that we have pasteurization, we don't have to do that any more." Basically, Jesus worked with what He had and we can improve on the matter He chose for the sacrament.

It's goofy, but hey, when you try to reshape a two-thousand-year-old religion in the image of a two-hundred-year-old country as perceived by a people whose knowledge of history farther back than fifty years fades into a vague vision of "the olden days," it's going to end up goofy.

Yes there are many Evangelicals today that confuse Kosher Wine(yayin mevushal) with grape juice. They don't realize that Kosher wine is still WINE!!! and not grape PASTE as I have heard one evangelical pastor promote,in which the Jews simply added water to makeinstant grape juice,pretty funny really.

Well, in this case, you seem to be using "some Protestants" as a less than precise term for "Evangelicals."

What you have to understand about evangelicalism is that it is a natively American religion, which lends it a distinctly American cultural character; hence the almost messianic attachment to this country as a "city upon a hill" and their zeal for the supposed sanctity of the Founding Fathers and the "Christian principles" upon which they founded "the greatest nation in the history of the earth" blah blah blah...

All of that is by way of introduction, because one key cultural trait of Americans, perhaps a defining one, is an ignorance of cultures other than their own and history from more than about fifty to a hundred years ago that is matched only by their apathy toward those topics.

In short, I strongly suspect the majority of evangelicals simply have no idea that "grape juice" as we know it today didn't exist when Christ walked the earth.

Besides all which, Americans are also possessed of a remarkable chronological snobbery. I wouldn't be surprised to hear an evangelical say that "Jesus may have drunk alcohol, but now that we have pasteurization, we don't have to do that any more." Basically, Jesus worked with what He had and we can improve on the matter He chose for the sacrament.

It's goofy, but hey, when you try to reshape a two-thousand-year-old religion in the image of a two-hundred-year-old country as perceived by a people whose knowledge of history farther back than fifty years fades into a vague vision of "the olden days," it's going to end up goofy.

Yes there are many Evangelicals today that confuse Kosher Wine(yayin mevushal) with grape juice. They don't realize that Kosher wine is still WINE!!! and not grape PASTE as I have heard one evangelical pastor promote,in which the Jews simply added water to makeinstant grape juice,pretty funny really.

I have heard this as well. If it is not true, where did they get this information? Surely there is some truth behind it or they would not use this explaination.

Well, in this case, you seem to be using "some Protestants" as a less than precise term for "Evangelicals."

What you have to understand about evangelicalism is that it is a natively American religion, which lends it a distinctly American cultural character; hence the almost messianic attachment to this country as a "city upon a hill" and their zeal for the supposed sanctity of the Founding Fathers and the "Christian principles" upon which they founded "the greatest nation in the history of the earth" blah blah blah...

All of that is by way of introduction, because one key cultural trait of Americans, perhaps a defining one, is an ignorance of cultures other than their own and history from more than about fifty to a hundred years ago that is matched only by their apathy toward those topics.

In short, I strongly suspect the majority of evangelicals simply have no idea that "grape juice" as we know it today didn't exist when Christ walked the earth.

Besides all which, Americans are also possessed of a remarkable chronological snobbery. I wouldn't be surprised to hear an evangelical say that "Jesus may have drunk alcohol, but now that we have pasteurization, we don't have to do that any more." Basically, Jesus worked with what He had and we can improve on the matter He chose for the sacrament.

It's goofy, but hey, when you try to reshape a two-thousand-year-old religion in the image of a two-hundred-year-old country as perceived by a people whose knowledge of history farther back than fifty years fades into a vague vision of "the olden days," it's going to end up goofy.

Yes there are many Evangelicals today that confuse Kosher Wine(yayin mevushal) with grape juice. They don't realize that Kosher wine is still WINE!!! and not grape PASTE as I have heard one evangelical pastor promote,in which the Jews simply added water to makeinstant grape juice,pretty funny really.

I have heard this as well. If it is not true, where did they get this information? Surely there is some truth behind it or they would not use this explaination.

I'm not sure where they get the imformation, Even if one where a Nazarite,one would also have abstain from grape products all togther! But the process of making Kosher Wine simply boils away impurities in the juice from the crushed grapes,not to cook it down to a paste, but then again how many evangelicals know the process of wine making. I don't know all there is to know in wine making,but I've studied enough to know the basics.

While there are some denominations that are teetotalers, many Protestant congregations that use grape juice due so based on a local decision within their church and would not condemn a different church from using wine. Also, remember, that Protestants think of and approach Communion quite differently from Orthodox and it shouldn't be surprising that they have use all sorts of different types of bread and all sorts of different grape juice.

While I agree that temperance does not necessarily mean abstinence, in some cases such as a habitual alcoholic certainly does. Alcohol to an alcoholic is a horrid sin that brings down individuals, families, and ultimately much more than that. I understand that a single sip of wine for a recovering alcoholic can send them right back into darkness. There are those that are seeking God that are best served not to drink and I have to wonder if that is more important than whether it is wine or grape juice? Why put the temptation in their face when it could result in their backsliding? IDK

I realize I do not have a full understanding perhaps of the Orthodox view of communion. Perhaps my statement stands in contradiction to it?

Peace & Grace

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There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

I understand that a single sip of wine for a recovering alcoholic can send them right back into darkness.

You might understand that sentence but a reality it ain't.

Oh, I'm not sure about that one Orthonorm. I am not an alcoholic so how can I say for certain? There are those very close to me that are. I would have to lean toward one drink can most certainly trigger a relapse. Now, whether that is a biological or psychological thing I won't speculate, but in the end does that even matter. If they can't have a drink without risking relapse then they can't have a drink!

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There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

So, what's the difference between "fermented wine" and "unfermented wine" in the Bible, then?

Check a concordance with the Hebrew and Greek words used for wine. There is certainly a greater "precision" in the Hebrew, can't say much for the Greek (Septuagintz), as I looked at this in light of the primarily silly Protestant notion about "wine" not really being "wine".