Gun control advocates and even former Vice President Dick Cheney have suggested having 10 rounds available in a magazine for a semi-automatic pistol seems like enough to protect oneself, yet the argument is simply an extension of a random number that seems to make people feel better and has no relation to real-world situations.

Ive caught a few posts during the last week concerning the number of rounds a pistol magazine can hold. Its an emotional issue for many, but limiting the magazine capacity of semi-automatic pistols would not make a difference, and could put those defending themselves in a more difficult situation.

Rick Green at the Hartford Courant has brought this subject up twice (here and here) within the last week mentioning he tried to get an answer from Sen. Dick Blumenthal (D-Conn.) concerning a proposed limit. Ed Morrisey at Hot Air posted just today referencing Cheneys comment about the same.

*IF* you have drawn, you have made a [legal and moral] decision to employ deadly force to stop a threat. Not “get away.”

AND

There may be more than one perp to deal with.

AND

MOST people have NEVER had to fire their weapon in real life - ie AT a human who is threatening them, moving, out in the open, an so on. MOST shots WILL miss. You may need a reload to stay alive. (even if it is to run away)

So, if you HAVE made the decision to draw, you are **NOT** doing so to threaten. You are doing so because the situation requires you to use deadly force to protect life and property.

I am taught to never draw and point my weapon at a human unless I MUST and INTEND to use deadly force to ELIMINATE a threat.

1) Shouldn’t ‘people of color’ be allowed to defend themselves from a group of 18 armed rednecks that always get guns like a crackhead can get smack???

2) Shouldn’t females who wish to exercise their reproductive rights, be allowed to defend themselves, with a gun with enough ammo against the Christian Taliban reacting to Sarah Palin’s angry rhetoric??

3) A gay person should have enough rounds to defend themselves against the homophobic crowd often found in rural areas. No More Matthew Shepards please!!!

4) Shouldn’t a progressive liberal trapped in NASCAR country have a large enough magazine round to defend themselves from Southerners who wish to restart the Civil War???

Maybe it changed, he was saying double tap the chest and single tap the head with the 9 and the 45 was a single tap to the head.

You guys on the forums always keep on this stuff, I don’t. That being said, I am sure there is a valid reason to have extended mags.

When I was in the service, we had 9 shot mags which were only loaded with 5 cartridges. In training we were told that the mags had a propensity for jamming when carrying cartridges for a long time in a full mag (they were only removed from the mag once per week for inspection). We were told that the spring when compressed for long periods of time would not reliably provide enough force to push a cartridge in.

The whole issue with magazine capacity boils down to incrementalism, or disarmament by a thousand cuts. (Sorry about the butchered metaphor, but that’s my specialty.)

If the guv can limit magazines to 10 rounds, they can limit them to 8, then 5, then 2, then 1, and then, whoops! You don’t really need a gun any more, because it can only legally contain zero rounds of ammo.

Never be distracted from the end game of gun control, which is complete and utter civilian disarmament.

The chest area is larger and therefore an easier target to hit than the head. That said, two to the chest with a handgun regardless of caliber, with a follow up to the head if the first two shots did not stop the assailant.

As far as magazines go, newer metals used for springs in new magazines have alleviated some of the “fatigue” issues associated with keeping them loaded for long periods of time. However, if you don't have the time or $$$ to practice enough to make spring fatigue a non-issue, (the mag won't be loaded if you shoot all the bullets that are in it), you may be better served with a revolver.

With a wheel gun, you don't have to worry about spring fatigue as everything is at rest until you pull the trigger.

With modern bullet design and powders, the stopping power for a 9mm and a .45ACP are about the same. That being said, I still prefer a .45ACP.

I like the 9mm better, lighter, faster pistol and less kick, barrel climbing. Cheaper ammo for lots of practice and loaded with Remington Golden Saber ammo about the same stopping power as a 45.As far as magazine capacity, adequate to defend myself is what I want, not what some idiot politicain *feels* should be adequate.

"In the real world if you have time to draw in the first place, you likely have time to reload ... if you are practiced."

In the real world, folks age and don't have the coordination they once possessed. The older I get, the more I appreciate this concept. Certain illnesses will also bring your 1.5 second reload to an ugly end.

“Lots of people stay in the fight after “center mass” hits, and some even win it... One, two or even several well placed “center mass” shots may not do what you think it will...”

The author,Jim Higginbotham, who has had decades of LEO experience makes the case that even in the case of lethal hits, the perp has enough time to fire back, and in many cases kill people who were waiting to see the effect of their initial hits on target.

As a civilian, I found this article to be a real eye opener, and while it may be old news to those of you in law enforcement or the military (thank you all for your service), I hope you will take the time to read this article. God forbid any of us should get into a gunfight, but this article could be a lifesaver someday.

In the real world, if you NEED a reload you have already failed the First Rule of Pistols: A handgun is for defense only. You use it to get away from a gunfight.

I can't say I agree with that. If a confrontation results in the good guy firing two or three shots at the bad guy... *if* there's a break in the action, the prudent thing is to do a tactical reload at the first opportunity. Even if you've only fired a couple of rounds, go ahead and switch out for a full magazine. That way... if something new develops, you've got a full magazine to deal with it. My .02

31
posted on 01/20/2011 7:22:42 PM PST
by Ramius
(Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)

The author,Jim Higginbotham, who has had decades of LEO experience makes the case that even in the case of lethal hits, the perp has enough time to fire back, and in many cases kill people who were waiting to see the effect of their initial hits on target.

Well, the "myth" comes from movies where people get shot and fall down dead. It just doesn't work that way in real life. It takes ~time~ for people to die in the real world. It's not a pretty thing. But with enough holes in them, they won't be able to put up a fight while it happens. Preferably, large gaping holes.

32
posted on 01/20/2011 7:48:59 PM PST
by Ramius
(Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)

There has been a lot of nonsense in the news about banning large magazines for pistols, specifically the 33 round used by the shooter in Tuscon.

I say nonsense because: Suppose we ban them.

Who will obey the law? Certainly not swat teams. Certainly not crazies like the shooter in Tuscon.

It will have no affect at all on the legal concealed carry because there is no way one can carry a 30 round pistol/magazine concealed. If you know anything at all about CCW, the idea of one going to Walmart or McDonald’s or any restaurant with a 30 round magazine under your coat or shirt is ludicrous.

So the only people who under the proposed ban would carry a pistol with a 30 round magazine would be swat teams and crazies, exactly the same people who would carry them under th present laws.

But why should anyone have a 30 plus round magazine in his pistol?

The statistics show that cops in the middle of their shift, wide awake, miss 85% of the time.

So a person who is awakened from a deep sleep in the wee hours, vision blurred, heart beating 150 beats per minute, is probably going to miss even more..

Suppose there are two intruders, as is often the case, and the home owner hits only 15%.

30 rounds x 15% = 4.5 hits. The homeowner will be lucky to get that.

A 10 round mag would give the homeowner 1.5 hits. Not good enough.

So a pistol with a 30 round mag is made for the under the bed home defense gun.

You mean 45 ACP or 45 Colt? If you mean 45 ACP vs. 9x19 (Luger/Para), the 9 is less powerful, but not so much less as to be a ridiculous choice for self defense. Certainly not three times or four times less. And I don’t get the revolver vs. auto comparison, as the 45 ACP and 9mm Para are both typically auto rounds. Maybe you meant 45 Colt, but that’s not the round most people use as a defensive round in a revolver either. I can’t follow your reasoning.

41
posted on 01/21/2011 3:20:15 PM PST
by Still Thinking
(Freedom is NOT a loophole!)

However...in the modern world, would you rather scare off an attacker by presenting a weapon or deal with the aftermath of spilling blood?

And yes, legally, police etc will tell you presenting the gun is “brandishing” in public... usually on a dark street with no rules ;)

Don’t misunderstand, to present the weapon you must be fully willing to use it, or it will be used against you. However in many circumstances simply presenting the gun will send the scumbags scurrying as often occurs.

Of course all relative to the situation and the threat level..ie Numerous adversaries hands visible compared to one advancing attacker with blade.

For example, the Glock 20...same size frame as Glock 21 in .45 acp, yet much less recoil, does not climb, gun pushes slightly back into your hand..with the right ammo, equivalency of a .41 magnum, very fast repeat shots.

Or get a hotter load like the Double Tap 230 grain hard cast, little more climbing than like .45acp!

Kind of the reason I went with the 9mm Glock 17. I practice a lot, built my own target range on some property I own in the middle of nowhere. The primary reason I went to a semi-auto was a little arthritis starting up in my right hand, particularly thumb. Always used single and double action revolvers before. The .44 Redhawk is no longer fun to target practice with.Liked the Glock more than I thought I would.

In a personal defense situation we largely deal with inference and our perception of the situation to assess #2 first, with far less regard for #1. Thus the expected question of ‘was deadly force warranted?’

The author,Jim Higginbotham, who has had decades of LEO experience makes the case that even in the case of lethal hits, the perp has enough time to fire back, and in many cases kill people who were waiting to see the effect of their initial hits on target.

That's why cops are taught to keep firing until the bad guy goes down. Some places, I think they are taught to empty the magazine.

50
posted on 01/22/2011 5:38:41 AM PST
by PapaBear3625
("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)

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