You're right again, Joe. I guess I'm not really looking to change the minds of people whose minds won't change - but rather, step up and say things for the other people.

The thing about evolution and the origin of life theory is, when you describe it as if it was some kind of event: "cells getting together & crawling"... it is highly misleading, and doesn't paint the actual picture. The actual picture is trillions and trillions of primitive chemicals, bonded and reacting amongst each other and becoming primitive cells finally capable of splitting or copying each other - with short existence spans, changing minutely each time - over billions of years until it is something resembling life. And then that "life" taking billions more years of selective evolution to specialize become more & more different living things... a numbers game so profound that it is hard for people to grasp. It really isn't shocking at all to think about the more advantaged cells evolving incrementally over time - the mechanisms are there, and the science behind it is proved (cellular evolution, natural selection). The evidence is all around us. And the math is in favor of it happening, rather than being some lucky chance. That is also why it is basically certain that there is life elsewhere in the universe - with the numbers of "opportunities" out there for planets/moons with environments that could support life. The numbers are in favor - not some slim chance.

No doubts I dumbed that down, mostly due to being a dummy myself lol. You are right about the primordial ooze being beyond what most can grab, myself being no exception, but no where will you find that It can't be due to intelligent design. The mere complexity of it reaffirms my belief in intelligent design to be honest with you. To get where we haved evolved to today by just natural selection and random chance to me is even more astronomical. I mean what are the odds? 100 billion Xs 10 to the nth power? I don't doubt that it's possible, but to believe that it all happened by chance requires more than a little faith in its own right.

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July 19th, 2012, 11:17 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

fellas:

Much of what I've heard, and even stated myself is pure conjecture. We make the assumption, based upon our "advanced technologies" that people back then weren't very smart. We make movies of them covered in scantly clad animal skins, bones through the nose, and speaking in gutteral (sp?) tones instead of languages.

We have a 50/50 chance of getting that right, because none of us were there. If Abraham was in direct conversation with God, and who's to say he wasn't, God didn't need to dumb anything down. He told Abraham what he wanted and Abraham did it. Look into Hebrews and see that he spoke with God, and did what was asked and it was credited to him as righteousness.

I'm not a huge 6 thousand year creation story, mainly because of the word "LIKE." In the scripture reference that mentions this time frame it says that a day unto the Lord is LIKE a thousand years. First let me assure you that God is not BOUND by time, nor is He required to operate within it. Being Creator, he sets the rules and standards. Time is a creation of man. To see how flawed that creation is, look at the very leap year issues we have.

Scripture is equal parts literal, parable, and relational, but at all points it is important. It backs itself up by naming events along with rulers of neighboring nations. Example: Xerxes, Darius, and others of the Persian empire in Daniel and other books. Nebudchezzar was even mentioned, and Babylon his great city has not only been found, but rebuilt by Sadaam Hussein.

Another issue that comes to mind when you are asking the question is how can we claim the lack of intelligence of people who existed back then, when we have construction wondes like the Giza Pyramids, and many more. We have more questions than answers, and a whole ark load of suppositions and theories. To that point, Science could be chasing after some of these wonders to answer the questions and I'm sure they are, but I also know and this was mentioned elsewhere that there is a under current of angst against scientists who do seek to clarify Scripture. They ostracise them, or discredit them, and in some ways interupt their funding or findings, to create such pressure as to shut them up. I believe Ben Stein did a documentary on it didn't he?

My point is this, all of these things are RABBITS, and we spend a lot of time chasing them. My rabbit isn't any better than yours, in fact, Scripture says that "God's people die for lack of knowledge." So who are God's people? God's people are the ones that are born of a woman, and breath air, and come in all shapes and sizes. Man and woman was created in the image of God, so therefore if you meet that qualification you are God's person. NOW, the lack of knowledge is the lack of knowledge of Him. God is RELATIONAL! The Catholic faith, along with many others have removed the relationship in order to subjugate the people by rituals or traditions. The relationship is now a duty, bland, lifeless, what's the point. Eric, you have stated yourself that it pissed you off because of the questions you had and couldn't match up with Scripture. Instead of being able to understand that you could take your questions right to the one who knows the answers, you removed yourself from the environment altogether, and you've developed a nasty taste in your mouth for it. Much to the shame of those that pushed you there.

What I speak about is what I know, MY relationship with God through Christ. I know I'm radical, and out there, I know that I'm frustrating and infuriating at times, but I'm not crying wolf either. I know what I'm talking about in terms of my relationship, and I love you guys enough that I'm willing to share my story with you. I know it doesn't make sense for someone to care that much, that you've never met, but the Lord has impressed you upon my heart, and so I must be obedient to carry you before Him in prayer, and if I can speak with you and share some different perspectives, so be it, we have good discussions do we not?

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

July 20th, 2012, 8:58 am

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

w4C I am very glad you see it that way and probably why we can disagree ad still keep the conversation so civil.

Ill share with you something that my pastor shared with me and i could not agreee more with: " When it comes to these types of things, it REALLY doesn't matter what details you believe, so long as you do Believe"

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July 20th, 2012, 10:33 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

regularjoe12 wrote:

w4C I am very glad you see it that way and probably why we can disagree ad still keep the conversation so civil.

Ill share with you something that my pastor shared with me and i could not agreee more with: " When it comes to these types of things, it REALLY doesn't matter what details you believe, so long as you do Believe"

Couldn't have said it better myself. God wants you to believe in Him, not in anything else. It starts and ends with that relationship.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

fellas:If Abraham was in direct conversation with God, and who's to say he wasn't, God didn't need to dumb anything down.

Ok Abraham, so, 14 billion years ago I sat down and came up with the laws of physics - the mathematical laws that govern how the universe operates. You don't understand what that means, because physics hasn't been invented yet, but stick with me.

Having written the rulebook, I decided to kick off the game. Sorry, I'm talking in metaphor there - ignore that, I'm not allowed to do that, I can only say things that are literally true.

So, anyway, having come up with the laws of physics, I decided to get things going with a big bang. Matter and space and time came into existence at a singularity and begin to expand outwards.

Fortunately, the laws of physics led to that matter not being evenly distributed (I'll leave the details out for now, if that's ok?). As a result, galaxies formed. You have absolutely no clue what galaxies are, but trust me they formed. Within those galaxies, matter coalesced together into stars and planets. The sun is a star, its just very very close by so looks a lot bigger than the others. The earth is a planet. There are others too, you just haven't found them yet. This happened because all things with mass exert force attracting each other. That's what makes things fall to earth. The force is small in proportion to the mass of stuff, so you need a shedload of stuff to produce a noticable effect. That's why you fall to earth but you don't find yourself pulled towards a pebble. I'm stealing this bloke called Newton's thunder massively here, but hey hey.

So anyway, we get the universe, galaxies, planets and stars.

So on earth, it turns out it's the right tempreture, right distance away from the sun and contains the right elements for life to occur. [insert section of origin of life, as this is not properly understood yet].

Once that life occurs, it has something called DNA. The DNA contains the instruction manual to build a lifeform. Each time a lifeform produces an offspring, there is a chance that DNA mutates and produces a change. Thanks to a process of natural selection (which takes a whole book to explain by a chap called Darwin, but we'll keep it simple because otherwise this bible won't be a managable length and there's no such thing as the printing press yet).

So yeah, millions of years pass, life evolves, lots of life forms die out (check out some of the rocks, there's crazy sh*t in there called dinosaurs - I quite enjoyed them, you guys should get a guy called spielburg to make a movie about them), we end up with the life you find on earth today.

Good chatting with you Abraham. Jot that down and tell other people. They won't look at you like you're completely f'ing mental at all, I promise.____________________

Personally, I think an explanation of Genesis that accepts that it is a metaphor, designed to help people understand greater truths rather than give a literal account of creation, is a much more convincing explanation than tying yourself up in knots about things like fossils up mountain sides, it not raining etc etc.

I cannot begin to fathom why so many Christians are so threatened by anything other than a literal interpretation of the bible. Is there something I'm missing? Why isn't that an acceptable option (indeed a great many Christians seem to take that view)? It seems so much easier, and makes so much more sense, to me.

July 20th, 2012, 12:11 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

UK Lion wrote:

WarEr4Christ wrote:

fellas:If Abraham was in direct conversation with God, and who's to say he wasn't, God didn't need to dumb anything down.

Ok Abraham, so, 14 billion years ago I sat down and came up with the laws of physics - the mathematical laws that govern how the universe operates. You don't understand what that means, because physics hasn't been invented yet, but stick with me.

Having written the rulebook, I decided to kick off the game. Sorry, I'm talking in metaphor there - ignore that, I'm not allowed to do that, I can only say things that are literally true.

So, anyway, having come up with the laws of physics, I decided to get things going with a big bang. Matter and space and time came into existence at a singularity and begin to expand outwards.

Fortunately, the laws of physics led to that matter not being evenly distributed (I'll leave the details out for now, if that's ok?). As a result, galaxies formed. You have absolutely no clue what galaxies are, but trust me they formed. Within those galaxies, matter coalesced together into stars and planets. The sun is a star, its just very very close by so looks a lot bigger than the others. The earth is a planet. There are others too, you just haven't found them yet. This happened because all things with mass exert force attracting each other. That's what makes things fall to earth. The force is small in proportion to the mass of stuff, so you need a shedload of stuff to produce a noticable effect. That's why you fall to earth but you don't find yourself pulled towards a pebble. I'm stealing this bloke called Newton's thunder massively here, but hey hey.

So anyway, we get the universe, galaxies, planets and stars.

So on earth, it turns out it's the right tempreture, right distance away from the sun and contains the right elements for life to occur. [insert section of origin of life, as this is not properly understood yet].

Once that life occurs, it has something called DNA. The DNA contains the instruction manual to build a lifeform. Each time a lifeform produces an offspring, there is a chance that DNA mutates and produces a change. Thanks to a process of natural selection (which takes a whole book to explain by a chap called Darwin, but we'll keep it simple because otherwise this bible won't be a managable length and there's no such thing as the printing press yet).

So yeah, millions of years pass, life evolves, lots of life forms die out (check out some of the rocks, there's crazy sh*t in there called dinosaurs - I quite enjoyed them, you guys should get a guy called spielburg to make a movie about them), we end up with the life you find on earth today.

Good chatting with you Abraham. Jot that down and tell other people. They won't look at you like you're completely f'ing mental at all, I promise.____________________

Personally, I think an explanation of Genesis that accepts that it is a metaphor, designed to help people understand greater truths rather than give a literal account of creation, is a much more convincing explanation than tying yourself up in knots about things like fossils up mountain sides, it not raining etc etc.

I cannot begin to fathom why so many Christians are so threatened by anything other than a literal interpretation of the bible. Is there something I'm missing? Why isn't that an acceptable option (indeed a great many Christians seem to take that view)? It seems so much easier, and makes so much more sense, to me.

Now thats just a downright entertaining post right there UK! I enjoyed it very much!

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

July 20th, 2012, 1:03 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

UK Lion wrote:

WarEr4Christ wrote:

fellas:If Abraham was in direct conversation with God, and who's to say he wasn't, God didn't need to dumb anything down.

Ok Abraham, so, 14 billion years ago I sat down and came up with the laws of physics - the mathematical laws that govern how the universe operates. You don't understand what that means, because physics hasn't been invented yet, but stick with me.

Having written the rulebook, I decided to kick off the game. Sorry, I'm talking in metaphor there - ignore that, I'm not allowed to do that, I can only say things that are literally true.

So, anyway, having come up with the laws of physics, I decided to get things going with a big bang. Matter and space and time came into existence at a singularity and begin to expand outwards.

Fortunately, the laws of physics led to that matter not being evenly distributed (I'll leave the details out for now, if that's ok?). As a result, galaxies formed. You have absolutely no clue what galaxies are, but trust me they formed. Within those galaxies, matter coalesced together into stars and planets. The sun is a star, its just very very close by so looks a lot bigger than the others. The earth is a planet. There are others too, you just haven't found them yet. This happened because all things with mass exert force attracting each other. That's what makes things fall to earth. The force is small in proportion to the mass of stuff, so you need a shedload of stuff to produce a noticable effect. That's why you fall to earth but you don't find yourself pulled towards a pebble. I'm stealing this bloke called Newton's thunder massively here, but hey hey.

So anyway, we get the universe, galaxies, planets and stars.

So on earth, it turns out it's the right tempreture, right distance away from the sun and contains the right elements for life to occur. [insert section of origin of life, as this is not properly understood yet].

Once that life occurs, it has something called DNA. The DNA contains the instruction manual to build a lifeform. Each time a lifeform produces an offspring, there is a chance that DNA mutates and produces a change. Thanks to a process of natural selection (which takes a whole book to explain by a chap called Darwin, but we'll keep it simple because otherwise this bible won't be a managable length and there's no such thing as the printing press yet).

So yeah, millions of years pass, life evolves, lots of life forms die out (check out some of the rocks, there's crazy sh*t in there called dinosaurs - I quite enjoyed them, you guys should get a guy called spielburg to make a movie about them), we end up with the life you find on earth today.

Good chatting with you Abraham. Jot that down and tell other people. They won't look at you like you're completely f'ing mental at all, I promise.____________________.

To me, there's no question that's how it would have played, if an actual creator was giving a selected createe the executive summary. But since that conversation didn't really happen & it was all made up, man has spent the last 2000 years learning slowly that the cartoonish story that has been passed down (for many reasons) isn't really true. And resisting the truth the entire way. I'm pretty sure that if man could still burn truth-seeking infidels at the stake, they would. But since they can't, the truth keeps coming faster & faster now.

July 20th, 2012, 1:30 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Quote:

But since that conversation didn't really happen & it was all made up

Thats kind of a bold statement isn't it? I mean, you can say you dont believe that it happened, but you dont know for a fact any more than I do. Saying that it didnt happen with any kind of absolution is the same thing as saying that it it absolutly did. You don't know (and neither do we). it's all a matter of belief at this point...one way or the other.

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July 20th, 2012, 1:39 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

I agree that is very amusing, and I did get a huge smile as I read it. Bravo, because I'm sure that took you quite a while to put that together.

However, you're missing context. You see, from your standpoint x number of years post abraham, and full of all this knowledge that your able to spout, and pull up all the internet data that you have, you are making an assumption that mankind was Neanderthalic. (dumb)

But let me ask you this in return. Adam and Eve were created right, fully grown, mature adults ready to start populating the Earth as soon as they can find a comfortable place to be alone together. Now there is NOTHING to taint the bloodline. No disease, no sin, nothing will corrupt the perfectly created at this point. So if Adam and Eve walked with God, and talked with God, who is PEFECt and HOLY, then they must be too right?

Oh wait, that can't be right! But Elijah the prophet was hidden in the cleft of a mountain as God walked by. He was not allowed to see God because the brilliance of His holiness would KILL Elijah. So Adam and Eve who were perfect were allowed to be in God's presence without issue. Until the fall (Gensis 3)!

Ahh the fall! The relationship has been broken, another man has caused the wife to stray, and in the very presence of her husband. Instead of attacking him at that point in time, Adam watched his wife be deceived, and was deceived himself. So now SIN has been introduced, and death is the penalty for sin. Now the blood line has been tainted by Pride, rebellion, and a whole host of other things. Give us time and man will think it into existence.

So Abraham, who was called out by God, to leave the land of Ur, some 2000 years after Adam, couldn't possibly be smart huh? For all of our knowledge we are way too proud, and still pretty flippin stupid. Something as simple as a free gift has JUST got to have strings attached. Salvation can not be that simple, and well Jesus isn't the only way to God, and blah, blah, blah.

Again, we can argue perspectives, and we can chase rabbits or fox, whichever you Brits would prefer, and in the end we still won't agree and we'll be further off track than when we started. OR..... We could get back to the original point of it's all about the RELATIONSHIP.

And the whole Big Bang theory doesn't really hold water either. We've had this discussion too, in which I was called crazy also. An explosion only CREATES CHAOS, not LIFE! Maybe I need to type this slow too?

Pick a spot on the ground, any spot, now place the explosive of your choice upon it and let go. What do you see? Material thrown away from "ground zero" and it travels as fast as it's weight will carry it. Now put all of this into a vacuum called space. Do the exact same thing! What ever is launched away from ground zero will still be traveling at the same speed it left because there is NO FRICTION to slow it down.

Job (oldest known book of the Bible) is quite clear in Chapter 43 I think it is, where God is giving Job a tongue lashing, asking (HIM, JOB, VERBALLY) if he is the one who "PLACED THE PLEIDIES, or set the boundaries of the oceans. God asked Job if HE had that power, and well you know the answer to that. But let me guess, because we weren't there to see the conversation put into print on papyrus, or velom, well it's just a story, a legend, a fable right?

Wow, and y'all say I have crazy faith! That's a doozy!

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

July 20th, 2012, 1:50 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

WOaH WOAH WOAH WOAH Warrior! cool down...I dont know why but you seem to be taking this personally. you Have to understand that this is ALL perspective. none of us wer there. None of us know. All we have is a belief on what we THINK we understand.

Abraham weas not stupid. he knew how to do things we have no idea how to do today....but there is no way in gods green earth he could pass a 4th grade science test. Im sorry. we as a speices had NO IDEA how and why things occures, and the catholic church did what they could to make sure things stayed that way for as long as they could. Declaring every scientist with a new discovery a heritic. things that we now know are facts. For example, and this is a GREAT example.....Abraham had NO CLUE about gravity. the simplest of concepts was completly unheard of and the mere idea of it threw the catholic church for a loop. The earth is Round? BLASPHEMY you say!

I dont want to see anyone try and challenge your faith, but I would like you to open you mind to a few new ideas on how God Might have done things.

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July 20th, 2012, 2:48 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Sorry if I gave the impression that I was getting upset, I'm not in the least bit agitated at all. Again, sorry, I was just adding to the discussion.

I wouldn't be so sure about the 4th grade science test.

How much geometry and engineering do you think went into the Pyramids of Giza? Let alone temple building and the Sphinx and other things. I'm of the opinion that these people had GREATER knowledge than we have today. It may not have been technology driven like computers and robotics or things like that, but using what they had at their disposal, they were freakin genius.

Noah, here's what I want you to do, take this wood and build this boat, and it has to be x number of feet long, y number high, and stock it with this, that, and the other. Who's to say this wasn't literal, the evidence of flooding can be read either way, but again that goes back to your own personal choice.

But I do have to say even at looking from a generation closer to ours, I'm amazed at what was accomplished and the work ethic, and ability to endure by the generation that fought WW II. That's two generations ago, and they did some AMAZING things with 1/4 of the technology that we have today, at best.

We may be smarter now, with more gadgets and gizmos but we're also much heavier and lazier because of them. I'd say WallE is fairly close to where we are as a country/world.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

July 20th, 2012, 3:43 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

I guess i dont know how you can say that. we could build the pyramids today in a quarter of the time AND make them even more restant to wear and tear. How can you possibly think they were smarter than us engeneering wise, if we could magically compete with em we'd mop with the floor with em! dont get me wrong what they did was amazing, but it doesn't compare to what just got built in Dubai ( I think it was Dubai...I get my middle eastern Locations confused all the time). Have you seen that tower? INSANE!

I dont want to minamalize the accomplishments that our ansestors did, but how can you possibly think they can compare with what we know and can do today? they'd crap their robes the first time they say a 747! Can you even imagine the reaction they would have to seeing an aircraft carrier? there simply is no compairison...not even close!

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July 20th, 2012, 4:15 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

regularjoe12 wrote:

Quote:

But since that conversation didn't really happen & it was all made up

Thats kind of a bold statement isn't it? I mean, you can say you dont believe that it happened, but you dont know for a fact any more than I do. Saying that it didnt happen with any kind of absolution is the same thing as saying that it it absolutly did. You don't know (and neither do we). it's all a matter of belief at this point...one way or the other.

Wait a second.... like Carl Sagan said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". How is what I said "bold" when all I'm doing is stating that something that has been in no way ever proved to ever have happened... didn't happen? It is only "bold" because so many people like the story that it is potentially offensive. Which in no way makes it true (that's a logical fallacy - arguement from population).

Let's be clear - I'm in the "show me" position. It is not a matter of belief one way or the other. If it hasn't been proved to happen - it didn't happen, my man. You can't prove that something didn't happen - only that it did. The onus is on the believers.

July 20th, 2012, 8:13 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Joe: The fact that they assembled such a structure with the tools they had, got the rock to that location, and chiseled it into such time fittings that you can't put a sheet of paper between them, is by itself one of the most extraordinary thing I can think of. Not only has the pyramids stood the test of time, but they align with such percision. The match up to the stars, and just so many other things, that it is mind boggling to think that they did it without the modern technology that we use today.

Btw, I've seen modern construction, especially done by Union employees, and I got to say, meh not impressed. The hand crafted craftsmanship of days gone by blows the stuff of today away. Look at the stone carvings, or wood carvings of yesteryear and tell me that we can do the same or better with computers? I'd rather have the hand crafted myself.

IE: There are so many things in the Bible that cross reference time, place, events, with other known documented history that it has more than proven itself. I believe there is a "fear" for lack of a better word, that if the Bible were true, your whole belief system would collapse. I'm not saying this to be argumentative at all. But you the tone I detect in the thread is so ANTI-Bible, ANTI-Christianity, that you must have really been hurt, or angered by the church. I'm so sorry if that is the case! It appears that you have literally closed your mind and heart off to the possibility that there is a God, and that He does want you to know him, that you get hostile when faced with it. Again, I'm really sorry if your opinion of Christianity has been made even more negative by these conversations.

I will keep praying for you, and hoping that somehow, someway, God will show you that He loves you, and that He does exist, so that you too can come to know him. That's the best I can do, and I'll keep doing it, because it's that important.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

July 20th, 2012, 10:31 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

Joe: The fact that they assembled such a structure with the tools they had, got the rock to that location, and chiseled it into such time fittings that you can't put a sheet of paper between them, is by itself one of the most extraordinary thing I can think of. Not only has the pyramids stood the test of time, but they align with such percision. The match up to the stars, and just so many other things, that it is mind boggling to think that they did it without the modern technology that we use today.

Btw, I've seen modern construction, especially done by Union employees, and I got to say, meh not impressed. The hand crafted craftsmanship of days gone by blows the stuff of today away. Look at the stone carvings, or wood carvings of yesteryear and tell me that we can do the same or better with computers? I'd rather have the hand crafted myself.

IE: There are so many things in the Bible that cross reference time, place, events, with other known documented history that it has more than proven itself. I believe there is a "fear" for lack of a better word, that if the Bible were true, your whole belief system would collapse. I'm not saying this to be argumentative at all. But you the tone I detect in the thread is so ANTI-Bible, ANTI-Christianity, that you must have really been hurt, or angered by the church. I'm so sorry if that is the case! It appears that you have literally closed your mind and heart off to the possibility that there is a God, and that He does want you to know him, that you get hostile when faced with it. Again, I'm really sorry if your opinion of Christianity has been made even more negative by these conversations.

I will keep praying for you, and hoping that somehow, someway, God will show you that He loves you, and that He does exist, so that you too can come to know him. That's the best I can do, and I'll keep doing it, because it's that important.

The self-referencing nature of the bible doesn't prove anything. Even if some events in a given book are well-known to have happened, historically - that doesn't validate all the other content in the book that has not been established to have happened. A lot of fiction is written to encompass actual history. But saying the flood must have happened, because there are references to real people & places in the bible ... is no different than beliving Forrest Gump and Lt. Dan were real because the story intertwines actual history.

I'm really not "anti" the religion itself, but rather the willfull ignorance / denial of reality by a lot of the believers.