1) that young ref was a real winner. in the jake o'donnell "fans came to see me" mold.

2) the celts have not figured out how to use jeff green. this should have been accomplished by now.

3) our offense is miserable right now. i know it's the late season doldrums but i've never seen so many careless dumb passes in my life- that shouldn't happen even against the wizards.

4) our half court sets are impotent. the wizard, not known to be a defensive team, gave us fits in our boring predictable half court sets most all the night, whenever they decided to try on D.

5) this team needs to hurry up on the tempo, as in do hurry ups before the other defense is set. we have some nice pieces to do this with. unfortunately jeff green never gets the ball even though he runs the floor. also, when ray is inside the coffin for shooting %, doc has to have the epiphany that maybe it's a GOOD IDEA to play both delonte and rondo at the same time to get some fast break mojo going.

I really don't know. As the Celts have struggled, Doc has been exposed as a very incredibly mediocre coach once again. He's come up with zero solutions, no changing up on anything, continue to under-utilize green, never used wafer properly, and delonte is not used enough still yet. The playoffs are going to be hard to watch UNLESS this team gets back to the vets hitting on all cylinders pretty quickly. Which they may do given a couple of games under their belts.

But my point is that we have an entire bench of starter quality players and Doc is getting nothing out of them. We need more Green and West, get innovative, play a little small ball to kill some time late in the season and run the freakin pants off of some teams. Give some people like Davis, who is obviously hurt, some rest. Small ball with Green at the 4, Delonte, Wafer runing too could really blow some points onto the board. What do we see from Rivers? Nothing. Hands in pockets as he drains the life out of the Old 3.

I've disagreed with some of your posts in the past. I think ones having to do with Perk and Rondo, not sure. But you hit the nail on this one. Doc gets away with so much mediocre coaching because he's a public relations genius. It's his fault we're not easily ahead of both LA and Miami. It's his fault Jeff Green hasn't been fully integrated by now into the rotation.

Danny will take a lot of heat, if the O'Neals don't pan out well for the playoffs. But if they do, and we still come up short, it will be all Doc's fault. Ray Allen has defied the physics of age. Yet here we are a few weeks away from the games that matter, and he has been completely run into the ground. It appears Paul may be joining him. Doc's been brilliant preserving KG, not so much Paul, and clearly not with Rondo and especially Ray.

Both of you great posts. The issue of Green defies logic . This kid is the hope of the team in the playoffs, a one on one player who should be in there when the offense stalls. I was incredulous last night when I saw he only played 19 minutes or so again.

Doc seems to think he has to go with his starters but Green is a starter sitting on the bench. The points he scores are within an offense that still does not run plays for him in which he usually he is a third or fourth option. This lack of use is a serious cloud over the playoffs as Ainge meant to use him a lot more. He had to have.

They utilize Kristic more than Green. Green should play 35 to 40 minutes in these end of season games. What is Doc waiting for. I would even have Green try covering Derrick Rose if we see them again in the playoffs. He runs like a gazelle.

Doc had some plausible deniability not using Nate more during last season since Nate wasn't too consistent. He has no such excuse for not maximizing Green. Good point Concord about Doc doing much better with using Krstic. However, I think Doc makes good calls like that when he has no other choice. We won a game earlier in the season when Erden put up a strong 41 minutes. But was that Doc using imagination or was he simply doing what even us armchair coaches would have done?

My fear is that Doc will go too much with the Big Baby route if the chips fall bad with the O'Neals. Troy Murphy has been a huge disappointment, but his height makes him much more useful than Baby as a big. People make fun of Scalabrine, but Scal simply due to height is a better big than Big Baby for defense.

Maybe Glen is hurt, and I'm being too harsh. I think he's the same height as Pierce. I think he's put on weight the last couple months. Big Baby scares me. I'd rather have Jeff Green playing power forward than him. Or maybe Krstic could do that. I don't get where Glen Davis is a better player than either of them. Sure Green leaves a lot to desire for defense. But so did Von Wafer and Ray Allen before they became Celtics. Speaking of which, how come Von Wafer isn't getting any action while Ray obviously seems in need of a day or week off? Why was Arroyo on the bench and Wafer in street clothes against the Bulls? How come Danny loves Doc so much, when Doc never adjusts to trades and draft picks made by Danny?

Doc was perfect for 2008. That's because Pierce and KG were in the last year of their primes. It would have been an even easier road to #17 if Ray hadn't been coming off his ankle surgery. Thankfully Perk and Rondo played over their heads, and we also had Posey, Eddie, and PJ Brown.

I'm glad more posters are emerging who speak truth to Doc. Myself and Mooltrikon are on the same page with this. He used to post on this forum. We both feel Doc shows little imagination as a coach and is unable to fully utilize the complete roster. I think maybe Doc took Bill Simmons' criticism too much to heart from many years ago. Simmons said Doc used too much of the roster. I'm glad Doc is willing to grow as a coach, but he seems to have taken that too far the other way. Now he is not using enough of the players on the roster. He got away with it in 2008, because the Big Four were that good. If we win #18 this year, I think it will be despite Doc Rivers. I'm hoping Doc can be the proverbial blind squirrel who finds an acorn.

Both of you great posts. The issue of Green defies logic . This kid is the hope of the team in the playoffs, a one on one player who should be in there when the offense stalls. I was incredulous last night when I saw he only played 19 minutes or so again. Doc seems to think he has to go with his starters but Green is a starter sitting on the bench. The points he scores are within an offense that still does not run plays for him in which he usually he is a third or fourth option. This lack of use is a serious cloud over the playoffs as Ainge meant to use him a lot more. He had to have. They utilize Kristic more than Green. Green should play 35 to 40 minutes in these end of season games. What is Doc waiting for. I would even have Green try covering Derrick Rose if we see them again in the playoffs. He runs like a gazelle.Posted by concord27

Ring a ding ding!!! Exactly- you trade away Perkins, a surmountable loss, but to MAKE IT WORK, you have to get prime stuff out of Jeff Green and all he has done is shown that he can make fabulous contributions to this team, he's young, fast, needs to improve on the boards but we can use the young and fast and get a lot out of him.

Crock Blithers can't get anything out of Green playing him sub 20 minutes for time and Green's skills are being wasted. If we can utilize Krstic and get just about every ounce out of him he has, which is great, WHY CAN"T WE GET SOMETHING OUT OF GREEN who has even more skills relatively speaking.

It's getting out of hand how Doc mismanages this minute spread with almost everyone. If they are going to keep this old core next year, Doc has to go. He shows zero ingenuity. Ray should have been converted to sixth man STARTING AT THE LATEST this year. Imagine a starting line up with a fresh breath of air of Jeff Green at the 3 and Pierce at the 2? Or throw Wafer out there for 20 minutes a night. Or Daniels when we had him. Doc hasn't used ANY of these pieces adequately and now include Delonte and possibly Murphy (why did he disappear in this holocaust of big men?!) too.

Faldo- you went overboard. Davis is a useful player. He is light years better than Scalabrine and here's why: Davis, regardless of his messed up knee right now, can BODY OUT big guys- Duncan, Howard, Bynum, you name the biggest strongest guys in the league and DAvis can get them off their sweet spot.

Davis does fall flat vs. quicker 4's but does well against a good amount of 5's.

So that's where Davis is better than Green, Murphy and everyone else on the C's except Shak for sheer strength.

Also, when Davis' game is on, and it has not been "on"- but when it is, he is a unique offensive player that can draw fouls from his post game (he should do this more), slash to the basket, hit jumpers more than decently %age-wise, and has GREAT hands and above average passing for someone his size.

There is something wrong with him right now. Limited explosiveness, probably due to the tendinitis. If Doc was SMART, he'd be running T R O Y M U R P H Y right now instead of Davis and letting Davis heal up for the bang and grind of the playoff half court game.

But this is screwy talk because Doc is not a smart coach. He's proven it time and again this year and in past years running Ray to death, now Rondo is showing wear and PIerce looks pooped too.

Von Wafer had shown in spots what he could be. He is a very good three point shooter, very strong going to the basket and much improved defensively. He should be playing minutes sharpening up for the playoffs if healthy.

Doc has not even used Wafer when he was healthy. He is exactly what we need at times to get the three line open. Ray, Paul, Wafer, and West could be in at times as Orlando and a litany of other teams use the three point line in spurts during a game. We will never do it but that is why you see Ray and Paul struggling to get open three point shots out there. We do not put enough guys out there to exploit it.

Von Wafer had shown in spots what he could be. He is a very good three point shooter, very strong going to the basket and much improved defensively. He should be playing minutes sharpening up for the playoffs if healthy. Doc has not even used Wafer when he was healthy. He is exactly what we need at times to get the three line open. Ray, Paul, Wafer, and West could be in at times as Orlando and a litany of other teams use the three point line in spurts during a game. We will never do it but that is why you see Ray and Paul struggling to get open three point shots out there. We do not put enough guys out there to exploit it.Posted by concord27

yep, we have ALL of the tools present to mix this team up with a great mixture of speed and the old guys. we have a bench unit that should be able to go small ball and blow the doors off of any team in the league.

why this angle has not been developed lies totally in the brain dead mush of doc rivers. he really isn't a coach, he's a chaperone.

Yes, the offense is pretty bad. I think there's too much Rondo dribbling and not enough team ball movement.

Jeff Green hasn't responded as well as I'd like, but he'll be ok. He doesn't play good defense and that's why he doesn't get more minutes. Also, he is a black hole like Marquis was. Give him the ball and he takes a long time to try backing down low and all stops. Its like any "one man team" offense at that point. That's why Doc won't run that play too often, IMO. Green has to learn to move the ball faster if he doesn't have a shot and use that move as a last resort, only.

As for Doc, let's see. Where do I start?

1. Shaq has been out most of the year.

2. JON has been out most of the year.

3. Perk was out most of the year.

4. When Perk came back, Danny traded him away.

5. The team was "hurt" and chemistry went to hell when Perk was traded. His point guard pouted and the team lost its inside defensive presence.

6. Rondo and KG both missed several weeks in the season.

7. His back up guard (Delonte West) missed most of the season.

8. Semih was hurt with the bad shoulder every other game.

9. Danny drafted a back up guard who was a shooting guard and not a point guard (Bradley) and he played like a scared rabbit.

10.Every team gives the Celtics their best when we come in town, wanting to kick our butts because we talk too much trash.

11. We are older than all of our rivals - the Lakers, Bulls, Magic, and Heat are all younger and either more athletic or taller, especially when ALL of our centers are missing for the season.

12. with the trades, Doc has to try to work on HCA, work on resting the starters, teach the new guys defense and the offense, and nurse a team that's clearly pissed about the change in its makeup.

14. Doc's assistant coach who knows the inside of his team is now coaching his rivals - so he loses talent on his team and that talent is used against him.

Now - through all of that, The Celtics battle for the 3rd best record in the league and most of the season - the second best record in the league. The team wins the championship the first year, almost beat the Magic (game 7) in the year KG is hurt); go to Game 7 of the playoffs last year, beat the team with the best record in the league last year - stopping the one player team and embarrassing the Magic AND the Cavaliers. He teaches this raw point guard called Rondo to play the game and become an allstar (even though he has NO jump shot). his team LOVES him and will follow him anywhere - begging him to come back to coach them.

And what's his reward for all that success and all those challenges and getting his team to battle for 3rd best record with a complete makeover of his bench after the all start game (look at it - the bench is COMPLETELY different with only BBD (part time starter) there all the time)??? Its you saying that he is a so so mediocre coach? Really?

Think about the challenges that Thibs faced. Think of the challenges that Phil Jackson faced. Think of the challenges that Pop faced. Have any of them had NEARLY the injuries, team make up, trades and remaking of the team mid season, or age to deal with????? We have the same record at the Lakers and Heat and we've had 5 times the injuries. Bulls had 1 major injury for half the season and a bunch of young guys along with the likely league MVP.....and we are within 3 games of them.

You and I read that differently. You read it and say how terrible Doc is. I read it and say "WOW, that's an AMAZING job!!". Give the Lakers, Bulls, Heat, or Spurs that challenge and tell me they would be where we are now! NO WAY! I give Doc huge credit for holding it together when the players are exasperating and when Danny + injuries have pulled the rug out from under him.

Doc is like any CEO - he build the coaching team and he ran it and he made them work together. Thibs is really good, but he has NEVER had the challenges Doc has had to take on.

Doc won't be back next year - its just too frustrating for him. And when he leaves, the fans here will be looking back saying "but when Doc was here.....".

You only miss the water when the well runs dry, huh? You'll miss Doc when he's gone.

Nobody said we won't miss Doc. I will, but he is not trying to find new ways to help the team's offensive effectiveness.

I also disagree on Green, if you have watched lately you would see he really can play defense and block shots. His holding the ball on offense is due to the fact that he is usually a third or fourth option being asked to bail out the offense when they already failed to get a good shot and the clock is running down. He needs to a be a focal point of the offense. Ray is not getting good shots and is usually passing out of desperation.

Well Concord - we're watching a different game. When Green (who I love because I am a HUGE Georgetown fan and I watched the kids for 3 years) gets the ball, there's plenty of time on the clock. Watch next time and see.

Jeff is a very heady ballplayer, but the knock on him at Gtown and at OKC was that he was not aggressive. He's too passive.

Blocked shots are like Rondo's steals. They are not always a sign of good defense. They are "help" defensive moves but on the ball, Jeff's D has been horrid. he let's his man go by him and he fouls a lot. Check his fouls per minute and you'll see what I mean.

Again, I love Jeff. I'm glad we got him. I hope we resign him. I think he will be VERY valuable int he future. But, his minutes are limited because he is learning the system - both offense and defense.

On Doc, let's agree to disagree. I think he plays Ray way too much but on offense, I think he's trying to get Rondo prepared for the playoffs and I think he's one of the best play callers in the game.

Last point....YOU may admit you'll miss DOC, but Acie is not nearly as balanced in his view as you are.

Troy Murphy got some minutes against Washington and looked good on both sides of the ball. With Baby floundering, Murphy could take a run for his spot if Doc manages for talent and contribution and relative health over loyalty to the player (which is his fall back position, AND why I think Doc is still crying in his bear over Perk).

1. Hes been known to say he will limit the Big3's minutes no matter what... but a look at the box scores says different.

2. Health is his #1 priority.... see #1

3. The inequity of limiting some of his players minutes for not doing their job defensively while others play defense like a swung open barn door and still get their 35-40 mins.

4. Calling out & ragging some of his players (non Big4s) on the court for all to see during timeouts for mistakes and carelessness while others play lackadasical, sloppy, head-not-in-the-game ball that gets handled with kid gloves...

5. Not playing the hot hand.. this has an argument on both sides but when the team is playing well, being led by player "X", DOc has no problem pulling him out and reinserting the starter who was partially responsible for digging the hole the team was in.. Is playing his scripted playbook the sign of good coaching or inflexability and stubborness?

6. Players that have done well, apparently earning more minutes being forgotten about.

Eh, theres a laundry list on both sides of the coin with Doc... with all the things that bug me, think of what hes had to overcome the last 2 seasons.. all the injuries has made coaching & developing the team impossible. The trades set the team back both in chemisrty and learning curve... What about the disappoint of players like Nate??

When its all said and done... the coach always gets the credit or blame for the team...

2011 - 2nd or 3rd seed in East after suffering devastating injuries all season

What was it I was saying about the coach taking the credit/blame??

My old wrestling coach told me once.... talking about how he caught me hiding in the entrance of the school while the team was running laps and I was waiting for them to come around for the second lap (where I would sneakily jump back in ...

after winning a big match for the team he said about my hiding incident...

Doc had some plausible deniability not using Nate more during last season since Nate wasn't too consistent. He has no such excuse for not maximizing Green. Good point Concord about Doc doing much better with using Krstic. However, I think Doc makes good calls like that when he has no other choice. We won a game earlier in the season when Erden put up a strong 41 minutes. But was that Doc using imagination or was he simply doing what even us armchair coaches would have done? My fear is that Doc will go too much with the Big Baby route if the chips fall bad with the O'Neals. Troy Murphy has been a huge disappointment, but his height makes him much more useful than Baby as a big. People make fun of Scalabrine, but Scal simply due to height is a better big than Big Baby for defense. Maybe Glen is hurt, and I'm being too harsh. I think he's the same height as Pierce. I think he's put on weight the last couple months. Big Baby scares me. I'd rather have Jeff Green playing power forward than him. Or maybe Krstic could do that. I don't get where Glen Davis is a better player than either of them. Sure Green leaves a lot to desire for defense. But so did Von Wafer and Ray Allen before they became Celtics. Speaking of which, how come Von Wafer isn't getting any action while Ray obviously seems in need of a day or week off? Why was Arroyo on the bench and Wafer in street clothes against the Bulls? How come Danny loves Doc so much, when Doc never adjusts to trades and draft picks made by Danny? Doc was perfect for 2008. That's because Pierce and KG were in the last year of their primes. It would have been an even easier road to #17 if Ray hadn't been coming off his ankle surgery. Thankfully Perk and Rondo played over their heads, and we also had Posey, Eddie, and PJ Brown. I'm glad more posters are emerging who speak truth to Doc. Myself and Mooltrikon are on the same page with this. He used to post on this forum. We both feel Doc shows little imagination as a coach and is unable to fully utilize the complete roster. I think maybe Doc took Bill Simmons' criticism too much to heart from many years ago. Simmons said Doc used too much of the roster. I'm glad Doc is willing to grow as a coach, but he seems to have taken that too far the other way. Now he is not using enough of the players on the roster. He got away with it in 2008, because the Big Four were that good. If we win #18 this year, I think it will be despite Doc Rivers. I'm hoping Doc can be the proverbial blind squirrel who finds an acorn.Posted by NickFaldo

Interesting comments re Rivers. Weren't there similar complaints made about KC Jones during his time as Celtics coach. He certainly only seasons the bench seemed to be used to any great effect was '84 and '86. And mainly getting by because he was a "veterans" coach.

Not sure what to make of Rivers, and after he's retired will be the best time to really look at his career at Boston. However I think he's been a good coach. Not great but good.

Posey, Eddie House had very good years for Boston in '08. And PJ Brown was the best mid season FA acquisition in this era. Very strong team that one.

In Response to Re: Observations on the Washingtun Wizzards game last night....... : Interesting comments re Rivers. Weren't there similar complaints made about KC Jones during his time as Celtics coach. He certainly only seasons the bench seemed to be used to any great effect was '84 and '86. And mainly getting by because he was a "veterans" coach. Not sure what to make of Rivers, and after he's retired will be the best time to really look at his career at Boston. However I think he's been a good coach. Not great but good. Posey, Eddie House had very good years for Boston in '08. And PJ Brown was the best mid season FA acquisition in this era. Very strong team that one.Posted by RUWorthy

Of course if Rivers pulled a Jackson and went to the Heat, won a few titles, he would be rated number one coach in basketball. Just saying. Most coaches can win with talented teams. JMO

I like this thread, because you don't see much of these types of comments anywhere in regards to Doc's coaching. Usually whenever someone brings up these points, they get jumped on and accused of being a troll.

Acie- I probably did go overboard with my criticism of Big Baby. But I picture him the same as Rondo and Ray or I guess Paul, KG, or any other player. If they are hurt, tired, or slumping, they are going to lead the team to losses. I see that happening with Glen Davis. I've also noticed his stomach looks a lot bigger than earlier in the season. On an episode of The Association, it showed Davis chowing fattening foods like there was no tomorrow. I'm not saying Baby needs a minimum of body fat like Ray or Nomar Garciaparra, but he needs to keep it as low as he can. Someone short with stubby arms and no leaping ability is not helping his cause by becoming eating buddies with Bill Parcells and Elvis. Pierce understands this. He has some project to help kids keep weight off. Pierce found the fountain of youth this year because he came back very lean. Baby would be wise to keep his weight down. People have been known to eat their way out of the league.

RUWorthy- There's nothing more cool that meeting fans of other teams who aren't into silly trash talk. I agree with you that Doc is a good but not great coach. KC Jones might be a good comparison, especially when thinking of Pierce's development over the last four years. If players don't like their coach, the results are probably going to be ugly or underachieving. Bill Fitch was a great strategist and coach, but his personality was simply dreadful. Pitino is a great college coach, but he too is a miserable person.

The 2008 Celtics were a great all-time team. Most late season pickups are not worthy. PJ Brown was. Also Eddie House was in his prime as was Posey. In a way I feel bad for both the Lakers and Celtics even though they have been winning all the titles the last three years. Bynum was hurt in 2008, meaning there is a what if for that one. With KG's injury, there are major what ifs too for the Lakers recent titles.

Both teams along with San Antonio are in desperation mode. They realize it is now or never or very close to the last chapter.

Doc is on fumes worse than Ray Allen. He was the right man at the right time in 2008 like KC was in the 80's. His strategy of using a doghouse sometimes works. I do not like Arroyo and because of Doc, West has emerged, and we don't have to worry about Arroyo getting many minutes in the playoffs. But the doghouse approach can also backfire, as we see with Wafer's disappearance and Ray's calcifying before our eyes. The best thing going for the Celtics is that Doc has been outstanding in his preservation of KG, and Garnett does look close to what he was in 2008, just a couple years older. Pierce is definitely still the truth, and hopefully he will get his second wind for the playoffs. Unfortunately, too much is now riding on the health of the O'Neals. Fortunately, they are strong players, and if they can make it through to the end of the playoffs, the Celtics have to be one of if not the most feared teams to face. Same with Los Angeles despite their recent losing streak.

Rame- I think the Orlando series is the one that killed us last year. Maybe with Shaq and Jermaine, Howard will think twice of using his dirty tactics, if we face them in the ECF. I don't know how anyone can argue Superman is not a dirty player. Of course Ray getting hurt, then Perk, and finally Sheed's back giving out were the final straws. It was truly remarkable how close we came to winning the title last year. It's going to be a fascinating playoffs. I just wish I had more faith in Doc's ability to react to adversity. If Rondo is catatonic, will he swith to Plan Delonte? I have little hope for the Celtics if the O'Neals and/or Ray are not productive. It's kind of late in the ballgame to integrate Green, Wafer, and various plans B, C, D, and E into the arsenal. Doc's coaching like it's still 2008. So here's hoping that the Big Four will peak at the right time (quite possible perhaps likely), and that the O'Neals, Delonte, and Big Baby can stay healthy. Krstic is good for insurance. Doc has messed up in regards to Jeff Green. I haven't much hope there and don't expect him to be much of a factor in the playoffs.

Concord, are you watching the game? Are you seeing Green's defense (fouls and out of position) and his lack of ability to finish in an important offensive sequence? I think this kid will be a star for the Celts in the future, but right now, he's a little lost.