Chris, your profile photo projects your aesthetic. It is unsurprising to me that you feel the way you do. You like mainstream stuff. This much we know.

Everyone else: don't take the bait with threads like this. It's pointless.

It's like being a film lover arguing with someone who says "'Transformers 2' was a great movie! I mean... do you realize how much money it made? I mean, that's a GREAT MOVIE! If it wasn't, it wouldn't have sold so many tickets!"

And what's your answer to that? "Well, it's crap."

And yes, it is crap. But that's not a very good argument, is it?

Why can't you come up with a better argument? Because it's all subjective.

There's no scientific measure for the merit of art. And there's a certain beauty to that.

Why does Rothko's work tower over a thousand other similar artists? Well, it just does. That's why. And if you can't see why, nobody can help you.

People who love mainstream stuff are always suspicious that the only reason anyone doesn't like it is 'cause they're jealous or they're snobs or whatever. And, really, what can you say to that?

Pointless discussion. Everybody, move on. Don't waste your energy.

You can't argue someone into having better taste.

- c

Well said. As I said before, I never try to force my preferences on people. I just try to defend my tastes when people attack them. heh

But let's not be too judgmental now, I can actually play guitar, drums, bass etc etc, Hell I was in rock bands from 12 til 18! I love a lot of different music, and I do enjoy classical music (I listen to the classical channel in my car). I'm just trying to be open minded!

Hi, now i been on most major music forum and i have noticed that there is a huge hate for music such as Brittney spear, lady gaga, etc and other music which is in the charts. Now what i dont get is the fact it is there is becuase it is:

1. easy to listen to

2. catchy

3. good melodies

4. good structure

5. good engineering

6. really well produced

now surley that is all the things a good song should be. are these people (there on GS as well) i bit Dim? why do they not want to make good songs? now i know that not all songs are in the charts are good and i am aware that alot of it is PR and Image, but surley even the occasional really musical stuff breaks through for what it truley is and shines on the charts aswell, as well as your prefered genre of choice. So i don't get why people have so much beef with it, are they jelouse? or is it becuase it is ascociated with such things as young kids, teen age girls and such things that might not be exactly manly listening to (you dont hear many wrestler listening to Brittney spear or lady gaga) which i have noticed with friends they will not listen to popy stuff(purely on principle with out giving it a chance), they label it crap before they even give the music a chance. I think that a good producer and engineer will listen to all type of music and learn to love it for what it is from lady gaga to ten masked men, from dr dre to hybrid and edvard grieg to pendulum, so why has this stero type come over so many people. is it a domino effect that one (Supposedly cool) person says it crap so all his little followers say it rubbish with out giving it a chance? what your thought on why some many people frown apon pop music ?

I hate Modern Pop and Urban Murder Music it because it panders to the lowest common denominator of our society here in the US. What I hear on the radio, when I actually change it from the classical station, is vapid tripe that lacks musicianship, poetic lyrical sincerity, and the mix is usually so lacking in dynamics that I can't tell the difference from when the song ends and the Sprite commercial begins. Just pull the top twenty lists from the past two decades, and you'll see a severe decline in the number of actual bands who play and a drop in the diversity of the type of music played. I have no problem with several bands that hit the charts in the past, but I can find no equivalent for them now. Bands like Tears for Fears, Talking Heads, Rush, etc. I totally ****ing hated Duran Duran when I was a kid, but now they sound like rocket scientists compared to the crap like Lady GaGa. If it doesn't have complexity or passion, then it's just a waste of my time.

I could also point out that I consider anything that is universally popular in America probably sucks. The collective IQ of this nation has been going downhill for decades now. It's no wonder that someone who can't spell, capitalize words or use proper sentence structure is offended that some of us don't like it. You're probably not (publicly) educated enough to see what some of us are talking about. I know that sounds like an insult, but it's actually a call to pull up your pants, drop the three B's (bottle, bong, blunt), and take a course in music theory and history, and you'll be the wiser for it.

Make a hit pop song, then we'll talk. It's not that easy. Your name says it all... Why would an Old School guy like the new-school music out there? They don't even market the music at you anyway. I know that if you go through the process of writing a pop song, producing, arranging, mixing, mastering etc etc. You'll see that it's not a walk in the park, because it's easy to create dead spots. If you have any dead spots in a pop song, you're cooked.

I call bull****. Current producers are overrun with material. Being popular in 2010 has zero to do with musicianship and everything to do with image and marketing.

Writing: How hard can it be to pull of a I-IV-V arrangement? The only hard part is having enough money for the blow, booze for the parties so you can make the connections needed, which has nothing to do with how much talent the 'artist' lacks.

Mixing: It's going to sound like **** anyway, what does it matter? I'm sure they'll try to sound like whatever is 'hawt' at the time, which is whatever commercial artist they've based their sound on since it's all about Myth of Central Perfection, which means that there is only one way to do something, and to never take a risk. Also, use technology in the most obnoxious way possible so that people don't realize the vocalist is actually a hack that can't sing in key.

Mastering: Make it as compressed and limited as possible so that the mixing you did actually counts for nothing. Hard, brittle, and glassy are the normal adjectives used to describe modern mastering. A polished turd is still a turd, but if you make it shine bright enough, most people won't know that it's a turd.

And yes, some of us do put our money, or the lack of it, where our mouth is. I turned down three jobs to become a member of bands that were all on major labels because I thought the tunes, and the people, were crap.

I think its more about music lovers being annoyed with pop audiences that think whatever is on the radio is all there is and the best of what there is. There is a certain level of ignorance with pop listeners that bothers some people. I also think these pop haters are thinking in terms of complexity and musical integrity and I can relate to that in a way. It's very simple music in the grand scheme of things and is dumbed down in the grand scheme of musical history. A also think a big part of it is the integrity of the artist. If people loved music for music, it wouldn't matter what the artist looked like. Ears are not eyes.

I personally don't care if something is simple, but i am one of those guys that gets enraged when an artist can't perform their song. Think ashlee simpson, keysha, milli vanilli etc... Madonna is not an incredible singer but at least she isn't putting out music that she can't nail to the wall. Janet Jackson is the same way. Technology wasn't in their corner so they couldn't cheat. Anyway...

For what it's worth. I used to have my little stash of secret tapes that I never wanted my friends to know I had, but I just loved the damn songs. I remember secretly listing to janet jackson, madonna, Debby gibson etc... I can honestly say I don't think this occurs today because the music just isn't as good. It's not good pop for the most part.

- this is not true anymore with the loudness wars and over-compression. Distortion is physically bad for our ears. Pop music is more difficult to actually listen to then ever. Take the latest Amanda Blank album. It is a sonic assault. I feel bad that people don't realize the damage they are doing to their hearing. I fear there will future repercussions.

2. catchy

- pop always has to be catchy and I will always appreciate that despite the idiotic nature of some of todays hooks. Think black eyed peas.

3. good melodies

- uhh. Sorry, but the melodies as of late are god awful and if you don't know that, you don't know good music. Mariah Carey's latest albums suffer from poor melodies in comparison to her older stuff. Listen to "vision of love" and then listen to "Touch My Body." if you can't tell the difference or declare one better then the other.....you suck. I have heard way to many of these lame one note or repeated interval BS melodies.

4. good structure

- I think this is another requirement of pop. A badly structured song won't make it to the air 99% of the time

5. good engineering

- ha. Do I really need to comment on this?? These songs are recorded by producers and interns in awful setups. Trust me, good engineering is a thing of the past or else my bank account would be looking better.

6. really well produced

- Gotta disagree on this one. The destruction of the producer (not the guy that did the beat or song) as a third party is gone and it shows in all of the above. Nobody is doing quality control anymore except for the people who created the music. Look up precious poo or watch a mother that just can't admit she has an ugly baby. Nobody is giving an honest opinion except A&R's and they don't know ****.

In the end you are right and wrong. All of the above elements should be in every pop song IMO but most of them just aren't there anymore. I also think adults aren't having any music made for them anymore. Its all 4 to the floor party music now which is why it doesn't appeal to many people above college level. Country is the only genre that caters to a full spectrum of ages IMO. With todays pop, if a 14 year girl doesn't like, its not happening. It used to be that younger kids wanted to be older so they liked what adults like. It's not that way anymore.

I'm an old school progger and jazzman who can't stand much of what passes for music these days. But to say pop music has little or no value is a slap in the face to the millions who do enjoy the music. It has value to them, and that is good enough. No one gives a crap if I think Britney Spears or Lady Gaga sucks donkey balls. My 13 year old daughter doesn't care if I retch at what comes out of her Ipod each day.

And before anyone says that such music is destroying our youth, my daughter, who likes Katy Parry, Lady Gaga, and other assorted crap, can sit down and play a mean Beethoven or Chopin piece on our piano--which she enjoys just as much as today's pop music. She also enjoys singing the songs from the musicals she has been in, like Guys and Dolls and Bye Bye Birdie.

I think its more about music lovers being annoyed with pop audiences that think whatever is on the radio is all there is and the best of what there is. There is a certain level of ignorance with pop listeners that bothers some people. I also think these pop haters are thinking in terms of complexity and musical integrity and I can relate to that in a way. It's very simple music in the grand scheme of things and is dumbed down in the grand scheme of musical history. A also think a big part of it is the integrity of the artist. If people loved music for music, it wouldn't matter what the artist looked like. Ears are not eyes.

I can respect pop music when there is an actual artist and song writing behind it. For instance: Lady Gaga can really sing, her songs are well written, and the production is very good.
But what keeps me from listening to Lady Gaga and most other modern pop music is that its just too simple for my tastes. Maybe simplicity is a bi-product of being catchy? Anyway, I usually feel I don't need to hear a pop song anymore after just a few listens.

Chris, pardon the smart-aleck-ness....but every song ive heard(well, ive only heard two)
of yours-- have those 3 descriptors above...in spades. Just really cliche-filled. you have a good voice...so..do you do that just for money(while writing other , below the surface things for fulfillment)?

not meant to be mean spirited..but I think talented folks should be part of the solution to this problem(on the surface, materialistic, chauvanist content)

I mean...the one song I heard..something about being on the runway or being in the club or some such... what do people feel when they write such lyrics? i mean...I find it hard to believe...the idea that someone could write such(if you call it writing) and have it come from any deep part of them..

Im curious, Chris, I really am.

When I pull out up front, you see the Benz on dubs
When I roll 20 deep, it's 20 knives in the club

Top top - girl
Me and you together is a wrap - dat girl
Driving around da town in your drop top - girl
You no stop shock - girl
Little more da Dutty, we'll rock dat world

I see nothing but gangstas up in here
I see nothing but ballers up in here
I see nothing but dope stacks up in here
I see nothing but flossers up in here

Ah Yeah
We gon mash it up
If you ladies want war we gon blast it up
If you bitches got bling flash it up
R.A.M Squad, Universal gon stack it up
Ah Yeah

I generally don't mind pop music, I have a weekly residency in Boston playing top 40. What does piss me off is that most sheeple that like Pop can't appreciate anything else besides what's fed to them.

Every era has a certain percentage of the popular music that is simply bad.

One major difference with this era is that Clear Channel is limiting the variety of music. Also the formula for songwriting and recording has changed drastically in the last thirty years. Another major factor in pop music is that since the advent of music videos going mainstream the music has meant less relative to the visual packaging.

Chris, I hope that deleted post wasn't directed at me... I wasn't trying to be mean or anything.. I was asking a serious question. Just trying to discuss something that I am curious about.

It was actually a big post about how I knew my song was garbage, but it was putting my foot in the door in the music biz. Been getting lots of opportunities with that song alone. I also said that I wanted to step out of RNB/Pop but there's always something or someone bringing me back to it.

Then I said I had songs of mine that were totally different and a lot closer to my own thoughts etc etc, but that no one would want to listen to them because they could not relate, because they'd find them too bizarre.

So then I said, it's not the artist's fault, it's the listener's fault and what they want right now... Mindless, dumb music. Some of my most popular songs are some of the dumbest ones, where I waited at least 6 months to record because I didn't want to record them.

Anyway, I didn't attack you in the reply, I just didn't think it was worth it for me to even write one, then I deleted it!

so the more "on the surface" stuff you write(the stuffI referred to above) is just for money/getting your foot in the door, yeah?

No not just that, I also enjoy it too. It's like this, I love sounds (samples), I love producing as well as mixing and when I make a song I want to do it now (not develop it for months)! I mix and match and see what I can come up with (it's ear candy to me). If I see a demand in something, for sure I'll release it. I was not going to release this song but then people kept asking me to get it on itunes, so why not? I'd rather produce RNB/Pop than work retail at a crappy job, hands down. I also go to school at the same time, and I'm getting paid next year to tutor 1st year college students, I am so happy about it.

All in all, music is music, and I'm happy to do what I do, simple as that. I see music as an art and as a business too. Also, I make music so it can sound big in the clubs. I go to clubs to hear which songs hit the most, I DJ, I study the songs, I see what kind of techniques they use etc etc. It's a lot more work than it looks like. Also, I'm not a guy who is clueless about how to play instruments, I can play guitar, drums, bass (not as good as you!), synthesizer etc etc. I used to be in tons of bands before I decided I wanted to start producing music. Pop is not the only type of music that I listen to. I listen to pop, rock, hip-hop, jazz, electro, Classical, country, World music, tons of stuff!

If the music you pop lovers keep babbling about was good, we wouldn't be having this conversation, really. Why do you guys try so hard forcing the music upon the general public. Good music doesn't have to be forced and or explained. 99% percent of todays pop music isn't even pop, it's freakin techno music. There is a huge difference between pop music and techno lady gaga crap etc. You know music sucks when people don't even know the difference between different genres of music.

- uhh. Sorry, but the melodies as of late are god awful and if you don't know that, you don't know good music. Mariah Carey's latest albums suffer from poor melodies in comparison to her older stuff. Listen to "vision of love" and then listen to "Touch My Body." if you can't tell the difference or declare one better then the other.....you suck. I have heard way to many of these lame one note or repeated interval BS melodies.

You could even go further in her catalogue - "Honey" (1997) against "So Obsessed" (2009) Also funny how one has a performance that blows the other away... Why did that happen?

I would agree with good melodies being vital, and I think it's what we hear the least of in today's popular music. I can be really forgiving if there's a hook somewhere in the song. There just aren't many today for whatever reason.

Like Lady Gaga's "Just Dance." That was her only song with a decent melody. The rest are just tiresome, forgettable tripe.

But that's why I don't limit myself to Pop when I want to get inspired. I listen to a lot of Electro-House for that. I check out the charts on beatport, do some research. It only needs one beat to get inspired. Hell I got inspired by the melody from a **** **** machine the other day!