The lazy Weeden bashing is incredible. All people point to when discounting him is his age.

No detractors ever go into actual film analysis.

They just see Big 12, his unusual age, and assume he stinks.

He doesn't. His arm is fantastic, his accuracy is very good and he's got all the intangibles. He's also not a bad athlete at all.

I can if you want.

I see a fairly immobile quarterback who struggles with ball placement to his WRs. He has a better arm than McCoy for sure, but I wouldn't call it fantastic. I think Weeden can be a capable starter with a few solid games a year, but I don't see a franchise QB from him.

I kinda do because I didn't see a guy who 'struggles with ball placement to his WRs' at all (especially considering his 73% comp.) And I saw a guy with a HUGE arm. In fact, everyone everywhere noted his huge arm. People just assume it isn't great because they associate the spread with bubble screens and dink-and-dunks. While those are included, they also used a lot of downfield concepts, showcasing his awesome arm.

Here's what I did and maybe cross-referencing it with your stuff will advance the discussion even further.

Quote:

Well 'other people think so' is indeed true. Because the Browns are shopping Colt McCoy and will start him. But I understand you want first-hand opinions on him instead of just 'trusting the authority' so to speak.

Also, 'he's more mature' is true as well. NOT in the sense that he's more developed in the Xs and Os and pro-ready because of THAT. But because he's a 28-year old man who has been a professional athlete before and not a 22-year old kid. 22-year old kids' brains aren't even fully developed yet. How much does that matter on the actual field? You think probably very little. I don't know. I do know that GENERALLY SPEAKING, I'd trust a 28-year old man in high pressure situations more than a 22-year old kid. Simply because he's more experienced in his life IS an advantage, but it's more off-the-field, which may or may not affect on-the-field.

And by all accounts, he's an impressive leader, top-notch intangibles, smart, yada-yada-yada. As a 22-year old kid, you can be all those things in college, but struggle because of a lack of maturity. Whether it be not working as hard as a PRO quarterback needs to. Being overwhelmed. Maybe being overwhelmed off the field. Managing money. Growing up in the public eye. Not being able to get the respect of veterans. This is actually Mark Sanchez now that I think about it - wow. And because Weeden's 28, it's logical to assume those types of things won't happen.

So before I get to what you want, I'll answer your question: he's ready to start right now because _____________, he'll be given the keys, pick up the playbook (much easier now with NFL offenses adopting spread principles AND all the OTAs), and immediately be a leader of men. I can't predict the future, but it is logical to assume this based on the reports of his character/intelligence.

FINALLY to _____________, what you've been waiting for.

He's good at everything you want in a QB prospect tools-wise. Ideal size. MATURITY (lol). And intangibles. It really is as simple as that.

+ He's got an absolute gun. They actually did throw the infamous deep out there a few times.
+ Mechanics/footwork/release seem fine if not flawless. He didn't face much pressure and when he did, he tended to throw off his back foot and *shocker* be less accurate. But that's normal. Also was always shotgun but I think he proved fine under center at Sr. Bowl.
+ Great anticipation. Throws slants, digs accurately nearly every time.
+ Accuracy in intermediate/short game is as good as it gets. He'll be able to hit tight windows in the NFL.
+ Throws surprisingly well on the run. Not fast though.
+ He hits some posts/seams in between guys on ROPES (Iowa State there are two and Texas one that are HOLY ****).
+ He doesn't make THAT many bad decisions.

- His offense has a lot of one-read stuff. And by good design, there are sometimes wide open targets. So what happens is, he locks in to primary and can get in trouble. He threw picks in college because of it. Sometimes he trusts his gun too much. He'll throw picks in the NFL. Also, he doesn't do much of reading defenses (and big 12 defenses are very vanilla anyway). That will be an adjustment, especially as it pertains to zone blitzes, etc.
- When he sees man or C3 on Blackmon, he'll throw the 9 even though he shouldn't. Safeties are going to bait the **** out of him on that.
- He doesn't make any adjustments at the line. Not sure if it's really a negative because he'll probably be fine doing it in the NFL.
- His pocket is always almost always clean. Like spotless in some games. When there is pressure, the good thing is that he keeps his eyes downfield and his arm is good enough to get it out. Bad thing is that he'll throw off his back foot (but friggin Eli STILL does this). Also, that means you really can't evaluate his pocket presence in terms of mobility within the pocket (what Manning/Brady are so good at).
- Things move very slowly and easy back there for him so facing the Cyclones pass rush to the Steelers is going to be crazy. But he IS tough. No Gabbert here. He'll take hits.
- His deep ball isn't great. He doesn't have ideal touch. But he's got a cannon. And his accuracy in the 20-30 yards downfield range is very good, as is hitting throws deep odd routes (outside-breaking such as outs, corners/flags)
- His playaction sucks. It just does. Not a big deal but it's terrible.
- He did the Orlovsky against Texas.

So he's going to have to adjust to the NFL. He's going to have to study. A lot. Memorize his playbook. Speed. LOS stuff. It's going to be VERY different from Oklahoma State. But today rookie QBs can succeed. NFL offenses have similar concepts. He'll get used to the speed. And I think he'll handle the adjustment well.

The positive outlook is based on the fact that he possesses these three essential QB-specific physical tools:
IDEAL SIZE
PER-REQUISITE ARM STRENGTH (More than enough)
GREAT ACCURACY
ANTICIPATION

and reportedly has the LEADERSHIP, INTELLIGENCE, TOUGHNESS intangibles.

Is he a perfect prospect? No. But he's closer to it than you think.

My quick opinion on the two hot topics though (and I hope people don't even respond to these two things):

1) His age IS NOT A HUGE NEGATIVE AT ALL. QBs play well into their 30s and he's a pocket passer. If he hits his stride in year 3 , he'll be 31 and in his prime. Who wouldn't want a 31-year old franchise QB in his prime. If he's not a franchise QB obviously the negative was something other than his age...

2) This notion that because he blew out his arm pitching or something, his shoulder is going to break down. Watch the tape. The dude's arm is MORE THAN FINE. I trust the Browns doctors here. There is no pitch count in football for a reason. You think Brett Favre can't still throw it over dem mountains? Projecting injuries is a very cheap way to argue against a prospect. How would you know that he's more susceptible to injury than say, any other ******* QB? And if that were even remotely true, if he was even 2% more likely to require surgery down the road for some future injury then why did a team that employs doctors to do every ******* test in the world on these kids just invest millions in him. Come on.

completion % does not "very good accuracy" make. Ball placement is more than your completed passes and Blackmon/Cooper had to make plenty of adjustments for balls.

Weeden's arm is good, by far good enough, not huge or fantastics (and everyone,everywhere? Check our scouting report here. It's a positive, but Scott was a far cry from calling it great). Weeden can make many NFL throws, not all of them, and many of them won't be in the right place. That is a worry for me for a 1st rounder.

completion % does not "very good accuracy" make. Ball placement is more than your completed passes and Blackmon/Cooper had to make plenty of adjustments for balls.

Weeden's arm is good, by far good enough, not huge or fantastics (and everyone,everywhere? Check our scouting report here. It's a positive, but Scott was a far cry from calling it great). Weeden can make many NFL throws, not all of them, and many of them won't be in the right place. That is a worry for me for a 1st rounder.

Never read his report until now. Here's what Scott wrote:

Quote:

• More than enough arm strength to make all throws
• Tosses a nice spiral and gets rid of the ball quickly
• Is accurate with solid touch and timing at all levels

I know comp. % isn't the only thing. I think he's accurate because when I watched him he was accurate. The comp. % is just supplementary to prove that point. Scott also agrees that he's accurate.

His negatives are also pretty much exactly what I had.

The main difference is that Scott thinks age and 'mileage' on his arm are negatives whereas I don't.

But the actual QB-specific stuff is very similar to what I had.

The games I reviewed I saw a few WOW throws on ROPES and excellent accuracy. I don't know where you saw his receivers having to adjust to make catches. I don't remember seeing that too much.

In fact, I remember thinking his short game was so robotic and perfect that people would assume 'bubble-screens and speed outs are easy completions so there's no evaluation in that' when in fact he throws those types of spread staple routes so consistently perfect that I was even impressed with those 'easy' routes.

I guess we'll agree to disagree about his arm strength -- I'm not looking up youtube videos right now.

As far as everything else -- we'll see. I think the guy gets a bad wrap and is actually a very good prospect. I also don't care about his age or concerns about his arm. Many do. We'll see.

I see a fairly immobile quarterback who struggles with ball placement to his WRs. He has a better arm than McCoy for sure, but I wouldn't call it fantastic. I think Weeden can be a capable starter with a few solid games a year, but I don't see a franchise QB from him.

The one thing you didn't hit on that I feel is a legit concern is how his productivity drops when he is under pressure, and McCoy got rocked last year. I also feel that was a bi-product of how bad our run game and how bad Colt was so opposing defenses were just pinning their ears back and blitzing a ton.

He's a developmental WR that played in a gimmicky offense and has missed an entire year.

His QB will either be a girly armed Colt McCoy or a 30 year old rookie QB, both of which played in a different kind of gimmicky offense.

He cost them (effectively) a top 35 pick.

How can a fan be happy with a stupid pick? Even if you get lucky and it works out, it still means your management is full of idiots who need luck to do the right thing.

Mike Holmgren's decision making in Cleveland has been abysmal.

I wouldn't necessarily call it "luck" if Josh Gordon worked out for them. I think it takes a fair amount of confidence to select a guy like that in the 2nd round. I think "luck" would be better used for a player like Marques Colston when the Saints picked him up.

As a Browns fan, I like the selection. The FO did a lot of research on Gordon to find out what kind of person he's proven himself to be, brought him in to Cleveland and pretty much put him through the ringer asking questions to see how he'd react, and were obviously impressed with his workout. Tom Heckert has proven to be pretty good at evaluating talent, so I trust his judgement.

As others have stated the only chance Cleveland had of drafting Gordon was to take him in the 2nd round. They thought he was worth it so pulled the trigger. Considering the state of our WR's I can't blame them for doing so.

Noone can say Weeden or Gordon will be solid NFL players until they prove it, but there's a good chance they will be. Barring injury Richardson will be a very good RB, and throw in Hardesty who should finally be back strong after his knee injury two years ago, we should be strong in the running game. O-line has improved at least the RT position, leaving RG as the one possible weakness. The WR's may look better with Weeden passing the ball, and if not the FO will have to do more work next off-season to replace a couple of them. MoMass has to show he belongs this year, or he'll go the way of Brian Robiskie.

The offense is improving, but is very young for the most part. Could take a year or two before the team gets to the playoffs, but I do think they are on the right track.

On defense, they have some needs, but played well for the most part. Have to admit though, I'm getting very impatient for someone, almost anyone, to beat out Sheldon Brown at CB. He just can't cover well enough because he's too heavy for the position which slows him down. I'm not convinced he'd even be fast enough to play safety.

The team is definitely headed in the right direction, whether Gordon proves to be a good pick or not within two or three years. I don't know why Holmgren gets so much criticism. He's done a terrific job. I don't agree with every move they've made, but the franchise is in much better shape than it was when they arrived. Having two well qualified former HC's as DC and OC kind of shows how the opinion is changing around the league about what's happening in Cleveland. Holmgren and Heckert have brought that credibility to the organization. And if Shurmur struggles this year as HC, well, guess who could step down to the sidelines right when the team is ready to take the league by storm - Big Mike Holmgren himself. Shurmur might do fine, but it's possible he's just been keeping the seat warm until the team is ready to compete with the better teams in the league on a consistent basis. I like what they've done so far, and trust their judgement when it comes to evaluating talent.

That's why Gordon being selected a round or two higher than he probably deserved to doesn't bother me. Not to mention what Gordon had to say about the Browns has him on track to be a fan favorite if he can also prove himself on Sundays. He showed respect for the organization. Not all players have shown a desire to want to play in Cleveland over the past decade or so. I still recall Willie McGinest at his press conference after signing with the Browns saying something like, "Man, this is hard", when he was about to put the jersey on in front of the cameras. I understand it may have been hard to leave the Patriots after the success they had while he was there, and go to a struggling team, but that comment made it obvious it was all about the money, and he didn't have any regard for the organization. And RG3 saying the Redskins "saved" him, didn't sit well with Browns fans. Gordon seems to get it.

Good days, I mean years, ahead for the Browns.

Edit to add: I wouldn't get caught up too much in the schedule. Every NFL team is dangerous. Only the truly elite teams can burn through schedules, and I'm not convinced any team today can claim that lofty status.

Last edited by OhioJB : 07-14-2012 at 09:12 AM.
Reason: Spelling error and edit to add

PHI: Could win (always early season upsets)
@CIN: Could definitely win
BUF: Could definitely win
@BAL: Tough, but Baltimore isn't the same and they always play division tough
@NYG: Giants are very sketchy early in the year - lost to SEA at home LY
CIN: Favored probably
@IND: Favored again
SD: SD not great on the road
BAL: Tough division game though
@DAL: Likely a loss
PIT: You never know with division games
@OAK: Might be tough, might be very easy
KC: I think they'll stink, we'll see
WAS: I think they'll stink, we'll see
@DEN: Who knows at this point in the year
@PIT: Real tough

Like OhioJB says, schedule-reading at this point isn't very wise. Injuries and everything else happen. Teams become cupcakes when they are projected preseason to be powerhouses. You just don't know.

What you can do is evaluate the team playing the schedule. I think Cleveland has improved pretty much everywhere on offense and returns a decent defense.

I wouldn't necessarily call it "luck" if Josh Gordon worked out for them. I think it takes a fair amount of confidence to select a guy like that in the 2nd round. I think "luck" would be better used for a player like Marques Colston when the Saints picked him up.

I think we are talking about the same thing here. Hitting on a 7th rounder vs hitting on a second rounder with very serious red flags is about the same.

Other than his physical measurements, I'm not really sure what he did to earn a 2nd round pick. It's not like he was a Biletnikoff winner/finalist or something in that 1 year.

I just think too many bad teams get a pass for taking obvious risks. I don't blame you for taking them when you are first hired, but Walrus probably gets fired if the team is picking top 5 this year.

It's luck from a GM standpoint because they are ignoring numerous (major) red flags. Doing that usually results in busts.

I don't mean it's luck form a player's perspective.

From everything I've heard, it's one red flag. He got caught smoking weed twice. I guess you can call that two if you want, but it was the same thing twice, so I don't really consider it two separate red flags.

So basically, "numerous" is either disingenuous on your part or I need to be educated on what else he's done. By all accounts, even his former coach, Art Briles, he's a really great kid.

Time will tell how he does, but I won't be crediting luck if this works out, Tom Heckert did his homework. I don't get all of the hate for this FO. I don't see what Holmgren and Heckert have mismanaged so badly to garner it. This is far and away the best job any FO has done in Cleveland since 1999. I guess because we don't have BB calling the shots, everything they do is just f**ked.

I find this selection a bit odd, but not strange. I think the Browns overpaid, but that is drafting. If he would have graded out 2nd round, given the full process, they made the right choice. If nothing else, they get an extra camp and season in his development, compared to a 2013 2nd rounder.

Concerning the Browns offense with Weeden: 2012 will be harsh. I like Weeden as a player, and support the Browns drafting him where they did, but it will not look good come 2013. Weeden, in addition to having the usual learning curve for a pocket passer, also has to deal with an elevated level of timing/rythum issues. Cleveland will be runnign a good offense for him, but I do not expect a quick adjustment or successful first year.

Its kind of been said, but I am fine with this for the Browns. They have really rebuilt their offence which was really needed. It may not be the best value but i have no problem viewing a future 2nd as equivalent to a 3rd in the past years draft and I would have valued Gordon as a third rounder personally.

Which is why they don't mind gambling in the supplemental draft. If it works, he might help them keep their jobs. If it doesn't work, the current regime might not have had the draft pick anyway.

I have to agree, Holmgren and his cronies are getting pretty desperate, another 4 win season which is most likely and they whole management team could be fired. Top GM's don't win 4 games after 3 drafts and have any expectation they they will keep their jobs.
IMO. they made the pick out of desperation much like the Weedon pick after they blew the RG111 trade. They have nothing to lose but the franchise could be set back years by these guys.
There is no way Gordon was a 2nd round selection in the 2013 draft. It was a huge reach by a franchise that cannot afford to reach.