Mmmmm... okay, but remember: Nihilus is dead by this point. Any connection that might have existed would have been gone. If the theory holds true, then the essence that was once fueling the empty shell that was Nihilus's physical form would have been absorbed back into the Jedi Exile, or it dissipated. When Nihilus dies, then there can no longer be a bond there, nor any abnormality that she would be aware of. For one, she is physically blind and would not be able to see the physical of Nihilus with eyes like yours or mine, so that leaves out one abnormality. Nor would she be able to sense anything unusual in the Force... because he is dead. He's gone. Poof, bye bye.

Alright, point taken.

Being able to see with the force is much greater than seeing normally (especially in regards to force connections). So, with prior knowledge of witnessing Nihilus' power and being around Nihilus long enough to get a "feel" for him; I believe Visas would have easily picked up on a connection between the Exile and Nihilus. Of course, Visas never mentions any sort of peculiarities between the Exile and Nihilus. Maybe because there are none? Or maybe because she felt it best for the Exile to find out himself? Who knows...

Being able to see with the force is much greater than seeing normally (especially in regards to force connections). So, with prior knowledge of witnessing Nihilus' power and being around Nihilus long enough to get a "feel" for him; I believe Visas would have easily picked up on a connection between the Exile and Nihilus.

Considering that Visas never ever mentions detecting the (unusually strong) force bonds between the exile and his companions, I don't think that is a very compelling point. For one thing, Visas should then have been able to give the exile far better insights into the unusual bond that exists between the exile and Kreia, yet there is no such comment in the game.

Another thing, note Nihilus does not just dissolve upon death. No, he lies about for Visas to examine and only dissolves when the exile and his companions walk away.

Also, Visas takes the mask, not the exile, yet only if the exile tells her to. Why can't the exile get the mask himself, if he wants it? And correct me if I'm wrong, but if Visas dies in that fight (because you sacrifice her), then you can't get the mask at all, since she is not there to collect, right? Now, why is that?

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

Plus the fact that the "A man, nothing more." Line could be referecne to what Kreia stated once: "He can not be called a man any longer."

And Visas says he is. So we got a lying Kreia, and a Nihilus that seems to be a man.

Visas was speaking about the crude, dead, rigid body that was now lying on the floor. Kreia was not speaking about a flesh-and-blood man, but rather saying that Nihilus was no longer a man in the sense of consciousness, emotions, drive, HUMANITY. In essence, Kreia was saying that Nihilus was no longer a living being with a drive, a will, or a life of his own. His physical (flesh-an-blood) form was still present, but it was void of true life. He learned (through experience) Hunger at the Trayus Academy, but it eventually consumed him.

Many things that are said in the game can sound the exact same, all the while meaning two very opposite things. That's one thing I LOVE about the game. Because when it finally dawns on you... it dawns.

Visas was speaking about the crude, dead, rigid body that was now lying on the floor. Kreia was not speaking about a flesh-and-blood man, but rather saying that Nihilus was no longer a man in the sense of consciousness, emotions, drive, HUMANITY. In essence, Kreia was saying that Nihilus was no longer a living being with a drive, a will, or a life of his own. His physical (flesh-an-blood) form was still present, but it was void of true life. He learned (through experience) Hunger at the Trayus Academy, but it eventually consumed him.

Many things that are said in the game can sound the exact same, all the while meaning two very opposite things. That's one thing I LOVE about the game. Because when it finally dawns on you... it dawns.

^^^ What he said is true for me aswell , I think this is one the best things about TSL . The way the conversations are fleshed out , the layers and understandings , even now this thread is a good example of how well some words where chosen .

In a way , this vision on the game of Jediphile , gives many anwsers , but Nihilus still stays this very unknown mystiry dark dude .

TSL is just lovenly depressing , not like K1 , with it's more happy approach .
Its like ESB against ANH ; both where great , but very different of atmosphere and feel.

Plus, all of this reasoning etc...is walled behind Speculation, not hard-core evidence.

True. I have never said otherwise. The game gives us no hard evidence to base this on, that's why I've consistently called my speculation a theory - because there is no hard evidence... save one.

We KNOW that there is a connection between exile and Nihilus from what the masters tell us. They felt the same from Nihilus' attack on Katarr as they did when they judged the exile. That's a fact. They are even so certain of it, that they believe the exile taught this ability to the Sith (meaning Nihilus), or that the Sith (Nihilus) learned it from the exile. Those are the facts.The rest is speculation.

I could be wrong about it all, but there IS a connection between the exile and Nihilus. They are not entirely separate beings with no ties to each other.

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

I could be wrong about it all, but there IS a connection between the exile and Nihilus. They are not entirely separate beings with no ties to each other.

I've been thinking... something might also be said about how quickly Visas joined the Exile after being defeated and spared. Sure, she was granted mercy and obviously was very grateful for that, but it is strange that though she is a Sith Apprentice she would so quickly turn her back on her master and apprentice herself to a Jedi.

I've been thinking... something might also be said about how quickly Visas joined the Exile after being defeated and spared. Sure, she was granted mercy and obviously was very grateful for that, but it is strange that though she is a Sith Apprentice she would so quickly turn her back on her master and apprentice herself to a Jedi.

Has anyone else thought the same thing?

Of course someone has

To me it could point another connection between the exile and Nihilus, but that too is speculative, and I felt I had presented enough evidence in the original post in this topic.

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

I've been thinking... something might also be said about how quickly Visas joined the Exile after being defeated and spared. Sure, she was granted mercy and obviously was very grateful for that, but it is strange that though she is a Sith Apprentice she would so quickly turn her back on her master and apprentice herself to a Jedi.

Has anyone else thought the same thing?

She really didn't make the choice to become a Sith Apprentice.

What happened is, Nihilus "showed" her the universe for what it really was. After this, she wished to die. Nihilus convinced her to join his cause and she fell in line with him, becoming apprentice and more notably, a servant.

Eventually, when she tracked down the Exile, and dueled her on the Ebon Hawk--Visas was defeated. This defeat proved to Visas, that perhaps there is strength enough in the universe to defeat Nihilus. Perhaps, the universe is not as Nihilus showed her.

Also, at first she wanted revenge, for what Nihilus did to her species, her homeplanet, and her herself. Eventually, she comes to terms with the past and following the light-side path--comes to terms and accepts an inner-peace.

Those are her reasons for joining.

Of course, taking on the double-meaning that is saturated within this game's dialogue, you could postulate that all of this "hope" stems from the fact that she drew a connection between the Exile and Nihilus.

Of course, as previous posts pointed out: She was unable to distinguish connections amongst the Exile and the rest of the party (or so we think, as such dialogue did not exist that). Which disproved my suggestion that Visas may have recognized a connection between the Exile and Nihilus.

There is one thing I’ve been wondering about this theory of yours Jediphile. If Darth Nihilus was a dark manifestation of the Exile (or in other words, the dark side the Exile rejected at Malachor V), how come you can fall to the dark side in TSL? Shouldn’t it be impossible for the Exile to do, since that dark side of his/her self isn’t in him/her? Or is this just a massive misconstrue on my part?

"Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

There is one thing I’ve been wondering about this theory of yours Jediphile. If Darth Nihilus was a dark manifestation of the Exile (or in other words, the dark side the Exile rejected at Malachor V), how come you can fall to the dark side in TSL? Shouldn’t it be impossible for the Exile to do, since that dark side of his/her self isn’t in him/her? Or is this just a massive misconstrue on my part?

I suppose this argument can be completely voided by the fact that canon Exile is light-side.

Besides, the exile split from the dark-side during her time as a Jedi at Malachor V, according to Jedphile's theory. The Exile later regains her force connection, which again would allow for a new chance to pursue the path of light or follow the path of dark.

I don't agree with his theory, but in accordance to it, I believe he would argue something along those lines...

There is one thing I’ve been wondering about this theory of yours Jediphile. If Darth Nihilus was a dark manifestation of the Exile (or in other words, the dark side the Exile rejected at Malachor V), how come you can fall to the dark side in TSL? Shouldn’t it be impossible for the Exile to do, since that dark side of his/her self isn’t in him/her? Or is this just a massive misconstrue on my part?

It is merely the Dark Side that the Exile rejected at Malachor V that Nihilus becomes.

Nothing says that The Exile can't create his own brand of Dark Sideness. Not the Dark Side motivated by Revan's massacres and the Battle of Malachor V, but the Dark Side that is fueled by rage against the Jedi Council and against Revan. My Exile was angry at the Jedi Council's reaction to him, and swore Revenge, and it is this swearing of Revenge that caused The Exile to fall.

If you fall to the Dark Side, Kreia comments that the reason you cut your tie to the Force was because "You had no choice." You didn't want to become Revan's DS pawn (altough you may want to be indepedent, serving yourself) and that you didn't want to die. So you chose the third path, which is to reject the Force.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Onion

"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.

It is merely the Dark Side that the Exile rejected at Malachor V that Nihilus becomes.

This is my take on the matter as well. It somehow seems incorrect or insufficient to say that the exile merely rejected the dark side at Malachor V, since the choice to turn to the dark side is still there. It would be more correct to say that the exile rejected being dictated to by the force and shed himself of anything that would force the issue upon him. My theory is then, that what the exile shed himself of becomes Nihilus. But since the choice of Malachor V was to either die or turn to the dark side, then what survives must be definition be dark sided. The exile himself will not make a choice, so he remains grey and can freely turn either to the light or the dark side at a later time.

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

Does anyone else but me think it odd that Nihilus is the biggest thing on the cover of the game, and he doesn't have the biggest part in the game? Could this be because Nihilus is in fact part of the Exile? And although they can't do it for this game but, the main character is usually the biggest thing on the cover. Interesting to think about...

Does anyone else but me think it odd that Nihilus is the biggest thing on the cover of the game, and he doesn't have the biggest part in the game? Could this be because Nihilus is in fact the Exile? And although they can't do it for this game but, the main character is usually the biggest thing on the cover. Interesting to think about...

I don't think anyone ever said that Nihilus was the Exile, only a part of him. And he was the greatest threat to the galaxy at the time, so it seems like it makes sense for him to be on the cover to me.

I don't think anyone ever said that Nihilus was the Exile, only a part of him. And he was the greatest threat to the galaxy at the time, so it seems like it makes sense for him to be on the cover to me.

I edited it to say "part of". I didn't realize I said he was the exile.

I don't know, I guess I didn't think he was all that great because he doesn't do much during the period that you play the exile, that I can think of except go to Telos. And if I can remember, he was easy to kill.

If you play as LS and get Visas to look at Nihilus' mask, Visas talk about Nihilus being a man, nothing more.

If you play as DS and get Visas to look at Nihilus' mask, Visas talk about Nihlus being a graveyard of worlds.

...So, basically, Nihilus' apperance to Visas changes based on your alignment. Hm...sounds like there is an actual connection, altough it could just mean that you, The Exile, is clouding Visas, and making Visas focus on the evil if you are Dark Sided, and focus on the good if you are Light Sided.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Onion

"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.

Whoa long thought provoking read and a coffee later...I never looked that deeply into the connection between those two. It does sound totally plausable that Nihilus was the DS twin of the Exile and maybe Nihilus face wasnt shown as its a plot twist thats waiting to be revealed in K3 or just too similar to Revans Dark Lord reveal in K1 who knows?!

I was always under the impression that Revan was The Exiles opposite. Vrook says something about Revan being the life and the Exile being the death of the force and along with the The Exiles hazy 10 yr memory I dont quite buy the fact the The Exile is a good guy or will be in K3.

I was always under the impression that Revan was The Exiles opposite. Vrook says something about Revan being the life and the Exile being the death of the force and along with the The Exiles hazy 10 yr memory I dont quite buy the fact the The Exile is a good guy or will be in K3.

Actually, as a correction, it was Kreia who said that. And some argue it is meant to be taking metaphorically, not literally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Onion

"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.

Hmm... I thought that at some point in the new Legacy series Darth Krayt consulted Nihilus' holocron to determine how to contain his consciousness within his armor. If Darth Nihilus indeed had a face under the mask(and therefore a physical body, too), why the reference to containing consciousness within armor?

Is this a continuity error, or a possible reference to Nihilus' return? I am baffled.

Well, there might be the remains of what used to be a body inside that outfit. But his mind is already contained in the armor he is wearing, and possably the mosk mostly. So the entitty known as Nihilus is really mostly armor, outfit, and a mask, with some dead human remains inside it. Imagine how this would smell.

Well, its like ... well, I am not going to quote warhammer40k here, but you know what I am saying.

So you're thinking that Nihilus is somewhat similar to the Thousand Sons legion?

I'm thinking that Nihilus is just a man so consumed by the Dark Side that any semblance of humanity has been washed away. He can't even speak Basic anymore, although he can apparently understand it. So physically, he's still human, but mentally and spiritually he's effectively desolate.

Actually, I think he might not be LIKE the Thousand Sons, but there are definitely similarity.

He is definitely linked to his mask, and that is a part of him. And there are strong hints that his physical human part does not matter anymore. Yes, I mean that his physical form does not matter anymore, and is nothing more than a beacon to his crazed so-called spirit.

To make things worse, I am not sure if Nihilus is totally destroyed yet. And, what I mean is, lightsaber and guns alone may not be enough to kill him. He would just latch onto something else, and wait for another body to pick it up, and use it as the vassel.

Ok, I might be dreaming too much. But somehow I think there might be more to him.

Last edited by PoiuyWired; 06-12-2007 at 03:10 PM.
Reason: Changed "Bacon" back to "Beacon", bad typo.

Wow! This is one heck of a theory, Jediphile! It's nice to see you put in so much time to give all those arguments in regards to it. I also believe this theory is plausible, now that I've read all the arguments. When I first heard of your theory, I didn't really think it possible and I was actually shocked. Although I always thought there was a similarity and connection between the Exile and Nihilus, until now I thought that Nihilus was a Jedi Knight during the Mandalorian Wars, who was captured by Mandalorians and eventually became the force-sucker he was. Your theory puts him in a completely new light. Again I congratulate and applaud all the time and thought you probably put into this!

btw, I've also noticed that under Nihilus' mask there seems to be a face. Actually if you turn the brightness level up on that image of him from Wookieepedia, you can actully see a clearer face, that actually looks rotten and old-like.

Lashowe: "Do you know how many Sith there are on this planet?"
Jolee: "Twelve! No, wait! Thirteen!"
Canderous: "Nice one, old man."
Jolee: "Thank you. It takes effort to be properly irreverent at my age."

But he doesn't, assuming it was him flying the Ebon Hawk towards the Unknow Regions at the end-game.
PS: Kreia's body remains when killed!

1) wasn't the ebon hawk destroyed at malachor V? when flying to Malachor they already crashed to the point where the EH would've been useless. It became stuck between those 2 rocks. and at the end you see a cutscene where the EH falls to the core of the planet.

2) I played kotor 2 quite a few times, but the only options I ever got was to throw her over the rail to the planet's core?

Some people said that Nihilus(?) was a Master of the exile cause they form bonds more easy.
Did you ever considered that The exile was the Master and Nihilus was the Padawan.
WE know that the exile trained The disciple for leaving with Revan for the Mandalore wars. So maybe he trained a new Padawan in the wars. Who would approve of the war. They formed a Connection and tadadididilaladida DArth Nihilus is Born on MAL V

I think Nihilus was another Jedi that was at Malachor V, only Nihilus chose to go into darkness and feed off of life to survive while the Exile chose the light. I think the Exile and Nihilus were two different people, and circumstance made them extremely similar.

First off, I don't think that Nihilus is the Exile's dark half. From my understanding, the exile was extremely good at establishing Force bonds with people she was around for prolonged periods of time, and at Malachor, everyone of the people she was connected too either fell to the Dark Side or was slaughtered, causing so much pain in the Force that the exile cut herself off from the Force in reaction, or it would have overwhelmed and destroyed her- rather than her dark self simply splitting away.

Also, the fatal flaw: Nihilus is a male, while the canon Exile is a WOMAN.
You could argue that the essence of a person has no gender, but lucasarts would not confuse people like that.

I apologize in advance if this has already been suggested, but this thread was getting a little mind numbing to read all the way through.

So here is my thought: The Exile had an affinity for connecting to people through the Force. Why? Well, perhaps it was simply something in her personally, but perhaps it came about from being introduced to the Force by someone who had the same affinity.

Perhaps Darth Nihilus was what became of the Exile's master. This would certainly explain their supposed 'connection'.

The bond that forms between a master and apprentice is supposedly stronger than any other- (I believe Bastila even mentions that in passing), so, in theory, when the Exile was forced to retreat from the Force, it would have left not only a wound in the Force, but an extreme emptiness in the one most connected to her- an emptiness that could quickly turn to hunger.

"Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask you is a trick. You will find no truth in me."
―Vergere to Jacen Solo

Nihilus sensed the masters on Katarr and was drawn to them, which fits with Kreia telling us that he is drawn to powerful forceusers. Now, Nihilus also senses the exile early in the plot, but it just occurred to me that there's a problem there... Because how can Nihilus sense the exile, when the exile has no force bond?!?

If Nihilus was indeed the Master rather than the alter-ego, he could have suddenly sensed his former apprentice again (the one who had left him so empty) when she reconnected to the Force.

"Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask you is a trick. You will find no truth in me."
―Vergere to Jacen Solo

Also, the fatal flaw: Nihilus is a male, while the canon Exile is a WOMAN.
You could argue that the essence of a person has no gender, but lucasarts would not confuse people like that.

The theory does take that into account, although I may not have touched upon it until the second or third post in this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Foley

Perhaps Darth Nihilus was what became of the Exile's master. This would certainly explain their supposed 'connection'.

I have suggested that myself earlier also. However, a straight master-apprentice relationship doesn't quite go far enough to explain the unique relationship that we know exists between the exile and Nihilus.

The masters: "The Sith are a threat, it is true. But the threat they present... it is tied to you in some way. The echo we have felt on the worlds we have walked - we have encountered it only once before, when you stood before us at your trial.We believe that somehow, you are creating this - or that the Sith have learned this technique from you."

A simple master-apprentice bond does not serve explain this IMO. That bond is well-known, and the jedi masters on Dantooine would seem to have no reason to suspect the exile for being responsible for Nihilus' destruction of Katarr if that were "all" that connects the exile and Nihilus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Foley

If Nihilus was indeed the Master rather than the alter-ego, he could have suddenly sensed his former apprentice again (the one who had left him so empty) when she reconnected to the Force.

The exile has no force connection and does not yet use the force through others yet. Thus there is nothing for Nihilus to detect. Indeed, one could argue that the exile has no force connection at all (which is true), and so cannot be detected at all except by witnessing his actual use of force powers.

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

You do realize that Vrook was the one stating that, and that Vrook sees everyone as evil if they stray from the Jedi path. Even seeing Zayne as evil in the KotOR comics, when he wasn't.

Vrook was constantly under the opinion the Exile was evil even when the Exile clearly wasn't. He immediantly accused the Exile of having already fallen then when Kreia enters the mix he says that the she'll cause you to fall just as Revan did. So in his mind no matter what the Exile is evil.

The Jedi Council was afraid of what had happened to the Exile and instead of trying to understand it, they exiled him/her.

Kreia stated that all the Jedi at Malachor V either fell to the darkside or died, save one. The Exile, how do we know there wasn't another Jedi present that also fell to the darkside but also left a wound in the force similar to the exile and unlike the exile began feeding on people with the force.

If one survived by creating a wound in the Force, isn't it possible someone else did as well.

In a way Nihilus and the Exile were kindred spirits, but they were not a part of each other. The Exile chose one path, while Nihilus chose another path. Nihilus sensed the exile after the force was reawakened and the exile went to one side of the spectrum or the other, however Nihilus couldn't determine an accurate location. One could even argue he may not have even felt it when Visa told him about it, which is why he reacted so violently towards her and why he demanded she bring whatever it was before him.

You do realize that Vrook was the one stating that, and that Vrook sees everyone as evil if they stray from the Jedi path. Even seeing Zayne as evil in the KotOR comics, when he wasn't.

Vrook was not the only one saying that in the game, and the only time he ever appears in the KotOR comic book is in issue 9 when Draay and his cronies are called before the council, at which point Vrook surprisingly enough avoids speaking for or against Zayne in any way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL

The Jedi Council was afraid of what had happened to the Exile and instead of trying to understand it, they exiled him/her.

Yes, but that does not invalidate how they sense the same thing from the exile that they do from Nihilus. Indeed, that they did still begs an answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL

Kreia stated that all the Jedi at Malachor V either fell to the darkside or died, save one. The Exile, how do we know there wasn't another Jedi present that also fell to the darkside but also left a wound in the force similar to the exile and unlike the exile began feeding on people with the force.

If one survived by creating a wound in the Force, isn't it possible someone else did as well.

The most obvious problem with that is that it contradicts the very point you quote Kreia for - that only the exile chose a different path.

Add to that the only time - to my knowledge - that Nihilus is actually named in the game, which is the description of his mask, and it becomes even more contradictory:

"You have taken this trophy from the remains of Darth Nihilus - it is the last surviving piece of the beast who died and was reborn in the shattered world of Malachor V. By taking it from him, you have gained a stronger tie to the Force."

This is not spoken by Kreia, but stated factually in the game, which means that Nihilus did die on Malachor V. Thus he chose one of the two options Revan forced upon the jedi there - turn to the dark side or die. Nihilus died. Then he was reborn and turned to the dark side. Since rejecting either choice is the basis for the exile's ability to wound the force, that certainly seems to contradict with the idea that Nihilus might have made the same choice. Indeed, he "made" all the other choices available. So I don't think that can be used to explain his similar abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL

In a way Nihilus and the Exile were kindred spirits, but they were not a part of each other. The Exile chose one path, while Nihilus chose another path.

Then why do they have so identical powers that the masters think the exile is responsible the destruction Nihilus has wrought?

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia