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This is a topic we've been discussing in the Q and A thread since the last round, where Hasbro (through several sites) indicated how - while Star Wars is selling better than ever, it is mostly due to Clone Wars, and the "Legacy" type figures were dropping in sales. As is often the case with some of Hasbro's answers that they send to a number of sites, it makes me think they are subtly telling us "get ready for less collector figures, and more animated stuff".

A few questions regarding this...first, do you believe them? Do you think that there really is a drop in overall collectors and/or "collector" sales? Second, what do you think is the reason for it? Is it one of the following:

-So Many Years Collecting for Some Leading to Burn Out (Since '95, or longer with Vintage)-Clone Wars Animated (Although it seems to be selling well, it was quite polarizing among collectors at first)-Price Increases/Down Economy (I'm sure this plays at least a part for many)-Lack of Interest/Most Figures Done (Always more to be made, but getting more obscure all the time)

Also, if this is the case, what do you think can be done to fix it? Other than the obvious choice of lower prices, what do you think would keep collectors in the fold? I'm someone who has bought both the animated CW stuff and the Legacy line, but if I had to choose one I wouldn't think twice about keeping with the "realistic" style stuff. I may be heading more and more that way anyways. I don't mind, and can understand, why the animated stuff is there for kids (and collectors), and it is obviously doing well for Hasbro. Do you think we are seeing the start of a dwindling space for "movie" figures at retail?

Aside from prices, I could see "burn out" having something to do with it. Not only have we had nearly 15 years of modern collecting, there also seems to be "more stuff" out there than ever. That might be changing as some lines (Unleashed, Titanium, etc.) seem to be getting the axe, but it does seem more difficult to keep up with things these days. There also seems to be more and more focus upon prequel/CW/EU era toys - which, again, is understandable - and I think that a lot of the older collectors maybe have a little more of a leaning towards OT. Not to say that many, if not most, of us collect the entire Saga - but I know that I personally usually get more jazzed about a new OT wave, especially with them being more infrequent the last few years. That might contribute to a lower interest level. Anyways, I'm rambling now, but I was just wondering what some of your opinions were on the whole "collector interest fading" comment we've gotten from Hasbro. Do you feel the same way, and if so - as a collector - what would keep your interest better? My gut reaction is to say "more Original Trilogy" - but the OT collectors might be the minority at this point, and it may just be my preference :).

Brian, it's a combination of all of those things and one other thing you didn't say. There is no live action event to help support the realistic style. While we have the movies, even the newest one is 4 years old now. The animated line is benefitting greatly from a weekly show.

I would almost best my left nut that if there was a live action show, realistic figures would see a boom in sales.

Price is a huge factor. Room to house all of our collectibles is another. The economy is a big minus right now.

The perceived lack of interest from Hasbro is of their own doing. Simply they just aren't making too many figures we are excited about. Couple that with all the reasons above and appears there is less of an interest in realistic figures.

Fact is there are still many figures we'd like to see made. New movie figures are indeed being depleted rapidly. However, we still have other character resources available. Games, novels, and comic books have all yielded some great characters. The comic packs seem to be doing pretty well. Perhaps Hasbro should think about this type of thing for Game and Novel figures as well. I'd love to see a 2 or 3 pack of KOTOR figures for instance.

The $8 pricepoint for figures is a hard pill to swallow. I'll speak from my own collecting experience to say that I see that as one of the biggest factors. As an extreme army builder, it used to be nothing for me to grab 20-40 of a given army building figure. In some case 80 of a figure and in one case over 120 (Utapau trooper). At the $5-6 per figure, that was much easier for me to do. The additional $2-3 per figure is one main reason why I don't collect like that anymore. Instead, I'll bide my time and look for deals on eBay. True, Hasbro got their money at some point. However chances were much greater I'd by from a retailer in greater numbers when the prices were much more reasonable. So now I buy no more than 5-6 of a figure that I would have got 20 at least.

With regards to army builders as well, I think Hasbro has done a disservice to us. I'd love to see an "Armies of the Star Wars galaxy" type line. In this line you don't buy individual figures, rather squads of figures. Boxed sets of 5 or 10. NO HEROES, no main characters. At the most maybe a clone officer and just ONE of those in a set like these for instance. Those sets would retail for $25 for the 5-pack, and $50 for the 10-pack. These become excellent deals for the collector, even the kid who wants to make armies, and would also be great as party favors.

Another issue that hasn't been touched that Hasbro could do to make this more affordable is packaging. Why on God's earth do we need a big honking window box that's needlessly tall and/or deep and wide for 3-4 figures? The Evolution sets were/ARE pretty good for packaging. Also they take up much less shelf space, which we all know is a premium.

So in my opinion, more battle packs, packaged smaller with troops is one facet they should consider. Battle packs with JUST heros is another so we only need buy the set ONCE. Less plastic would be used in these sets which is better for the environment and the cardboard used is biodegradeable so if trashed won't be as much a harm as all of those bubbles on single carded figures.

I don't know if this makes sense, but I could see another factor here, demographics. The way I see it each line has its own target audience. Obviously the Clone Wars is aimed at 8-12 year olds, basically the prime age for toys being bought for you. The Legacy collection still includes those 8-12 year olds, but more generally catches the people who were that age when TPM came out, as well as those that were that age when ANH was released. If you were 10 in 1978, you are 40 today. If you were 10 in 1998 you are 20 today. Now the collector, who has been buying since the vintage line is more or less set in their collecting habits. But the collector who has been buying since TPM or AOTC is likely to be a lot younger, probably in their 20s and is likely going through a lot of changes in their lives; getting married, having kids, etc. I think because of the fact that there is no recent major media event to draw a major influx of fans, as Sal mentioned, the existing fans are hanging on, but life happens, and when you have a fixed amount of discretionary income, and then prices rise by 10-20%, you are going to get squeezed. At least that's been the impact for me.

Hasbro is hinging on the notion that the kids of today will grow up to be tomorrow's collector. That my friends is extremely faulty of them to think. While there may be a SMALL percentage of them that turn into collectors, most will not.

They don't have the emotional attachment to SW as we late 20s to 40+ year olds do.

Kids have so many other sources of entertainment. Video games being a big one, besides the computer in general.

Yes, Hasbro is enjoying a good slice of the pie now. However, watch what happens over the summer with all of the soon to be blockbuster movies opening. Wolverine, Transformers, etc. While Hasbro holds the licensing for those as well, they WILL see the SW line decrease. Who to blame then? I'm betting collectors will still buy realistic figures during this time. But many kids will turn their attention to other things. Kids for the most part have a much less attention span than adults. Plus, we (I'm talking mid 30s-40+ year olds) grew up on SW. While it's not all we know, it's one thing we know VERY well.

I can make this guarantee with utmost certainty that when the cartoon show is over, so that toy line will die and quickly. However, we steadfast/diehard collectors will still be there (asking for the Tonnika sisters no less).

Hasbro denial that it's price that's driving collectors away and that's it's really the recession is short sighted of them. I said it above...point blank, more $'s per figure means we buy less figures.

Let me again illustrate this going on some of the figures I mentioned above.

Let's say there are 4 army builders I'm interested in. The old price of $6 is where I still felt somewhat comfortable with buying a lot of them. In this case 20 of each. So that's 80 figures at $6 each for $480 total before tax.

Bumping up the price by 33% to $8 has made me rethink that. Now my practice is buying only 5-6 of each army builder. So let's go with 6 figs. For 4 army builders that's a total of 24 figs at $8 each for a total of $192. That's HALF as much money for Hasbro and just over a third of the amount of figures I would have had at the lesser price. So what happened here? We (Hasbro AND myself) both LOST. Hasbro looses money and I don't really get the amount of figures that I want due to such a high price. Now take this analogy and trim it down some for the non army builders, yet multiply that by the overall number of collectors. What is the result?

Collectors are buying LESS due to price. We're not getting the product that we want or what we believe to be a fair value out of the stuff we buy.

Simply put to Hasbro: We are NOT losing interst in your product. We lose interest in paying more for the same quality stuff we could get for $5-6 just a couple of years ago. We can't fathom how things shifted that much that you felt the need to raise prices that much. And that's across the boards. Let's look at that:

I could go on, but you get the point. Most items went up in price by 25-33% and some even more. Why? This was WAY to fast of a price hike. We can remember buying SW figs for $3 back in 1977. So it basically took 20 years for them to go up $2 per figure. Why in just the last 4 years have they gone up $2 yet again? GREED. Please do not give us the bunk about oil. Oil prices at their highest where $147 a barrel and change. They've dipped all the way down to $34 a barrel. THe cost of gas was $4 a gallon many places and now it's back to around $2 per gallon.

Why haven't you kept pace with the market? In my sincerest albeit unscientific observation SW figures should cost no more than $6.50 per figure. This is a modest price increase, but still an increase. However not so much that those of us who buy multiples would have been so far sway like we now have been at the $8 pricepoint.

We WANT figures. We want NEW figures. New meaning never before done, OR the ultimate uber SA end all be all of a character so we never have to feel the need to buy it again. What's wrong with making certain collector oriented figures exclusives AND yet a shorter run?

Case in point, Yarna. She was in demand before she came along. Make her a limited run as a store exclusive and she would no doubts have sold better. Not more units per say, but the shelves wouldn't have been warming with her.

Same goes for the up coming Willrow Hood fig. It's actually nice to know that we collectors made enough of a stink to get him made, but you Hasbro also need to have enough business sense to know this isn't going to be a mainstream figure. He should have been sold as an exclusive. Instead he's going to stink up a wave in the basic collection and keep us from getting more/newer realistic figures because stores will have a glut of him. Not smart strategy on your part Hasbro. If we are and have been telling you these kinds of things from long before production, swallow your pride and accept that while we'll buy this stuff you must market it properly so as to allow for the rest of the line to flourish. We wanted Yarna, we want Willrow. But we don't need 10 of each. So make them in lesser quantity understanding that. In fact these would have made for a much better battle pack-in figure than single carded.

Anyway, we're still here Hasbro. Please don't ignore us or say we are to blame.

Hasbro is hinging on the notion that the kids of today will grow up to be tomorrow's collector. That my friends is extremely faulty of them to think. While there may be a SMALL percentage of them that turn into collectors, most will not.

They don't have the emotional attachment to SW as we late 20s to 40+ year olds do.

Kids have so many other sources of entertainment. Video games being a big one, besides the computer in general.

Yes, Hasbro is enjoying a good slice of the pie now. However, watch what happens over the summer with all of the soon to be blockbuster movies opening. Wolverine, Transformers, etc. While Hasbro holds the licensing for those as well, they WILL see the SW line decrease. Who to blame then? I'm betting collectors will still buy realistic figures during this time. But many kids will turn their attention to other things. Kids for the most part have a much less attention span than adults. Plus, we (I'm talking mid 30s-40+ year olds) grew up on SW. While it's not all we know, it's one thing we know VERY well.

I can make this guarantee with utmost certainty that when the cartoon show is over, so that toy line will die and quickly. However, we steadfast/diehard collectors will still be there (asking for the Tonnika sisters no less).

This is an excellent point Sal. I've often thought the same thing. I don't think that kids today have the emotional attachment to certain franchises like Star Wars (same could be said for Transformers, GI Joe and MOTU) that our age group did. There is such a nostalgic factor to many of those 70s/80s franchises that you just don't see these days. A lot of it is that there is just so much out there in any given year. In our childhood, we were lucky to see 1 or maybe 2 "big" movies each year, now there's one every week of the summer. Cartoons worked much the same way. As a kid that grew up without satellite/cable until high school, my cartoons were on Saturday mornings and before/after school (that's when Joe/Transformers/MOTU were on). These days kids can watch any number of shows any hour of the day between a dozen different channels. I sort of doubt that many (although some, I'm sure) of today's kids are really going to be "tomorrow's collectors" either. The world just doesn't work quite that way anymore it seems. I even look at someone like my brother, who will be 19 this year and was right about 10 when he saw TPM (and was way into it) - he has piles of toys from things that were popular when he was a kid (SW, Batman, Turtles, Power Rangers, etc.) and could care less about them.

I think too, as you mentioned with the "collector" figures, Hasbro needs to change something up. Obviously, they mentioned those collector-targeted figures specifically so they must be a problem for them. We're more than happy to get them, but they need to figure out a better release number or think about going exclusive with them as well. As much as we all wanted a Yarna figure, I bet most to all of us could still find several on the pegs and we're approaching a year later. Some people have 30-50 in a single store from what I've read/heard. I'm psyched about Willrow Hood as well, but I know at the same time he doesn't need to be 3 per case. I know exclusives can often be a huge pain, but it might be an option for some "collector" figures. I wasn't collecting for the beginning/middle of the POTF2 line quite yet, but I know a lot of the figures then (Oola, Muftak/Kabe, etc.) that were likely considered "collector figures" were exclusives, and weren't out there clogging the pegs. Then again, with the way things are these days they would release Willrow Hood as a SWShop or HTS exclusive, and he'd cost $17 with a clamshell - and we don't want that either.

Here is my assessment I been collecting since 1991 as a 15yr old Freshman, I seen the whole line evolve and stayed with it with a short hiatus in 2002.Like our Economy everything runs in cycles

1995 to 97 - POTF2 is here. **** was off the hook with a minor SOTE speed bump but we had new SW figures again. I remember my early hunts, great memories.

1998 - The TRU Genocide of $2 figures and 1/2 priced vehicles from over production really kicked the line in the balls but it was gearing down for the return of SW in theaters……

Early 1999 - The ramp up of EP1 with the POTF2 line getting focused again with spiffy new features like a actual gun holsters promised some cool **** was coming. for EP1.

1999-2000 - EP1 the disaster of over hyping the movie. Need I saw more than it was a repeat of 1998 only more overproduced & more expensive figures. (The same price as they are now coincidentally.) The paint ops did take new heights during this time so there were some positives. Plus Midnight Madness started here.

2001 - A nice back to basics POTJ line that brought it back the collector. Still to this day a nice collection of figures for the time.

2002 - The "McFarlane" pre-posed syndrome with action features poisoned the line and nearly put a final nail in the coffin. Hasbro's logic was great here, since EP1 royally ****** **** up they were scared shitless for it to happen again. So in order to avoid that they came up with the idea to put in Kenner style action features to appeal to kids more. But to keep the collector engaged they posed them so they cannot ever fly a ship. NICE! You alienated the base. This was the only time I actually quit collecting SW figures for a brief time. no regrets

2003 to early 2004 - The Clone wars and the resurgence of Star Wars! SA articulation, army building, better sculpts and vehicles put the toys back on track. Combine that with the animated cartoon and the perfect storm of kid/collector appeal created that balance which spiked sales.

2004 - OTC $5 figures focusing on the OT featuring revamped vehicles, better detail & articulation that rocked the toy boat. Somehow they even made 8 year old figures look good again too. That got the base really excited. $5 figures. Did I mention $5 figures. $5...........the perfect price.

2005 - The rocket ship got faster with the mega success of ROTS! (It also helped that the movie did not suck although the dialogue is atrocious) Army building Clone crazies are born, sales are dynamite. Guess what $5 figures too! With spiffy stand to boot.

2006 - Army building is in full swing with a glut of product but we ate everything up and asked for more. $6 a figure but still cool.

2007 - TAC hits the scene. In my opinion the best collection of figures in the entire history of SW figures. Even the pack in coins ruled. I have nothing bad to say and the sales only proved how good it was. $6-$7 figures but worth it.

2008 - The trouble begins (Interestingly enough it's when the recession was hitting) The year started off late with a bumpy start, we lost the coins then hit a lull point with product releases. The Clone Wars mega glut that gave us so much **** including the biggest vehicle, the best Legacy waves, lots of exclusives in one shot after a serious drought was indulgence to the max. Plus a whole new line to collect (Which I have avoided). The year dragged after that with a pretty lame offering compared to the great ginormous summer release. # months later interest was waning as people realized how big their collections are now. Room factors in at some point. $7-8 a pop now it's not cool.

Which brings us to 2009. Hefty price increases, less value, another late start with so-so waves and a real recession is not exactly a formula for success. Yes, they covered a lot of ground but there is plenty left to do. In addition with all of the lines like new Marvel 3/75 scale figures, 25th Joes and all the other crap from Hasbro alone collectors are leaving for some "strange" for a brief time. They are bored of the relationship of collecting SW, it's dull and overdone needing a break to think things over. What did I mean by "strange" it's a term when you want to find some new pudy-tang on the side to mix it up. But just like that they will realize the relationship is not bad and will be back.

SW will be back on track in 2010 with the anticipation of the live action stuff. We all will be waiting in line at midnight for new SW toys even the deserters. Guys just accept this hobby for what this is, it's a mentally abusive relationship. You start out with the best intentions and things are great for awhile. Then come things like price raises, figures shortages & such that ruffles the feathers. You get pissed at Hasbro and leave the hobby. They make good like an apology with sweet new product offerings to lure you back to make you think like they changed, what happens next: the **** hits the fan again & you leave. You think you left for good but like any good abusive relationship you come back for more when your guard is down thinking "it will be different this time". Right now too many collectors guard are up, but rest assured they will be back. The pattern shows this.

2001 - A nice back to basics POTJ line that brought it back the collector. Still to this day a nice collection of figures for the time.

I would LOVE it if things could return to how this line was back in the day, but that will never happen. My most favorite line to date since I got back into collecting. I don't open my stuff, so I'm not counting articulation and what not, but I dug/still dig the packaging and everything was light and evenly spaced out. Not like the mess that is Star Wars has been since that time.

I just don't see why Hasbro has to do 60 figures a year in the realistic style. They kind of did this to themselves by having so many years with that many figures out, but to have sales dwindle on this stuff was just inevitable. I mean, in a few months you see Yarna and Breha Organa on pegs. I didn't even know Breha's name until the action figure came out. I'm not quite as obsessive about SW as I used to be, but that's getting pretty obscure.

That and Hasbro is really competing against themselves for collector dollars. There was GI Joe from 2007 to now, Indy last year, and Marvel this year. I like all these lines, and I have so much SW **** that I spent my money on those other lines instead.

I wouldn't be bothered if Hasbro decided to do something like 20 Legacy figures a year and giving the lion's share of their resources to the animated line. It seems like this will be something they have to do to keep going.

2001 - A nice back to basics POTJ line that brought it back the collector. Still to this day a nice collection of figures for the time.

I would LOVE it if things could return to how this line was back in the day, but that will never happen. My most favorite line to date since I got back into collecting. I don't open my stuff, so I'm not counting articulation and what not, but I dug/still dig the packaging and everything was light and evenly spaced out. Not like the mess that is Star Wars has been since that time.

I've often mentioned that I sort of miss the POTJ days as well. That line was when I really, truly got into SW collecting. I had picked up a number of POTF2 and EP1 figures/etc., but the POTJ I collected nearly in its entirety (figure wise). That year was the year I got married, and we were on a very fixed budget, and I can remember collecting without any problems on a $25 to $30/month budget. I like all the neat stuff we see these days (the figures/toys, while too expensive, are pretty well done anymore), but I'd be fine if they slowed down a bit (and made the releases more consistent throughout the year). Like Ben mentioned, I don't know that we need 60 figures a year (not even including the CW stuff now), alongside all the vehicles, beasts, battle packs, deluxe, etc. I think many collectors have gotten overwhelmed since the ROTS line (when we started the "big" release years), and it hasn't cut back since then. It can become problematic not only from a spending standpoint, but from a space/display/storage standpoint as well. I remember telling my wife after the ROTS spending bonanza "don't worry, there won't ever be a year with this much stuff again - it should only slow down from here", only to see non-movie years have the same number (or more) of releases.

Volume was an issue before this year. Does it make sense for the legacy line to equal the volume of Clone Wars, which is current and introducing new designs/characters? The pool of stuff left to do from the films really isn't that deep. It is if you stretch it out. To go back to theme wave/not to theme wave discussion, the up side of that is it does provide platforms for Yarna and ICMG where I think hasbro would otherwise be wary of doing them, but theme waves cannibalize movies. I will be surprised to see everyone's top 10 lists for ESB this year, for instance. We've been really spoiled by hasbro in the last few years, and I don't mind one bit. But I don't mind either if the line gets leaner and meaner.

JACKOFTRADZE: Well thought out post. I agree with just about everything in your post.

I'm not quite in agreement with the last couple of paragraphs with regards to people quitting and coming back. Though I may be an exception to that.

For myself, I've been steadily dwindling down my budget to the point that it's now only 25% of what it was 2 years ago. I have no plans/desires to return to the high spending days of years past. Regardless of quality of product, I'm not going to allow myself to buy 40 of a troop building anymore. Certainly not at full retail price. I can wait and pick it up for $1-3 dollars in a few years.

As far as the animated line goes, I just don't have the same attachment to that line as I do to the realistic line. ANd I don't want to mix and match my figures because I think it looks rather ridiculous to have them posed next to each other. But that's my own opinion.

Volume was an issue before this year. Does it make sense for the legacy line to equal the volume of Clone Wars, which is current and introducing new designs/characters? The pool of stuff left to do from the films really isn't that deep. It is if you stretch it out. To go back to theme wave/not to theme wave discussion, the up side of that is it does provide platforms for Yarna and ICMG where I think hasbro would otherwise be wary of doing them, but theme waves cannibalize movies. I will be surprised to see everyone's top 10 lists for ESB this year, for instance. We've been really spoiled by hasbro in the last few years, and I don't mind one bit. But I don't mind either if the line gets leaner and meaner.

Yeah, really the volume issue has been in full effect since 2005, the ROTS year. The movie years were always bigger, but I think the last few years have almost had more figures/stuff than the ROTS movie year (which was huge itself). Not that I haven't bought most of those figures up, but it would be ok to see a slow down too.

You make a good point about there basically being two "full" lines out at the same time now with Clone Wars and Legacy. If it was one or the other, it would be a reasonable number to keep up with - but put together it is crazy. Plus, it would be a lot easier to just buy one or the other I guess. You're right about how we've been spoiled lately, and the character pool is getting smaller all the time it seems. Heck, looking at some of the Wishlists anymore, there are a couple movies at least that are getting reasonably wrapped up. Besides a number of Padmes and a few character re-dos, it is getting more obscure all the time. I'm always up for something new, especially from the movies - so I hope it can continue for awhile yet. I know I'd like to see the rest of the "ultimate" re-dos (Bespin Han, Hoth Luke/Leia, Skiff Lando, etc. just to name a few) - and really, I think a lot can be done in updating a number of POTF2 figures (Gamorrean Guard, Ackbar, Nunb, etc.) Those are the types of things I'm looking forward to, so I hope Hasbro sticks with the movie-style stuff - even if it is more limited in releases per year - for awhile yet.

I just find it funny that Hasbro says that there's not enough collector interest all of a sudden, yet 90% of what I see at retail since Christmas are Clone Wars and Legends figures.

Personally, I think that Legacy figures sell fine. Maybe Hasbro's profit margin is a nickel lower per figure because they're not all repacks like the Legends stuff, have a droid part and also have more detail and articulation than the CW figures, so they try and put that extra nickel back in their pocket by instead producing more of the other two sublines.

Going forward the best thing for Hasbro to do if they want to cut back is merge Legends with Legacy. Legends is clogging up shelves more than Legacy or Clone Wars. In a case of 12 figures you can have 6 new and 6 refreshed/carry forward figures. So if they get 6-7 waves a year we would still get 36-42 new figures a year and all the Kids favorites could be on shelf.

It's time for Legends to go.

I do not want to see regular SW go to the wayside, after 13 years I do not now how I would function without having something to look forward to add to my collection. It's part of everyday life. That's pretty sad when I stop and think about it.

Well this is the story for me. I shy away from buying stuff now because the prices are just a bit to damn high. For me it was going over $7 a figure. Now we are at $7.50-$8.00. By the time I buy a couple of figues that's close to $20 dropped. A wave of 6 figures is nearing $45-$50 It's nice to get the B-A-D if you happen to like the droid that is. I just kind of cring now when I look at the receipt.

A lot of 30 plus year old collectors probably have a wife, a kid, a home. Most of us have been collecting a long, long time and probably have almost everything you could have wanted from SW in toy form allready by now. I am at that point anyway. Yeah, they can always make another figure you always wanted them to make, but for the most part you got it all I would assume?

So, for me I only want to buy stuff that really interests me or I do not have yet. In other words I am not out there even wanting to buy up entire waves any longer. There is no new film where they can crank out figures from a film I don't have. They made every clonetrooper from the films and/or stormtrooper. I am pretty much set. So, when they re-release the 501st yet again I won't be buying 5 of them. It will be zero. I may buy 1 of those black pauldron Sandtroopers since I don't have it but more than likely I will not.

It's not that I am not interested in the line any longer, but I really don't need to go after the new Rancor Keeper either. Yeah, the Clone Wars has new figures, a new audience. So, yeah it probably kicks Legacy's booty all over the place.

Maybe when Lucas re-releases the live films in 3-D it will pick up again?

Very good look back down memory lane, JACKOFTRADZE. There have definitely been some highs and lows along the way. Certainly POTJ was a great line in it's time. And I also think we were in pretty good territory from 2004-2007 after the change in leadership with the Hasbro Star Wars team along with the heyday around the ROTS days.

I think that a few things have been a negative influence on the line with it's current direction. And I think the army building phenomenon was a big contributor to some of the collector burnout that we're seeing now. How many people in the ROTS days were buying multiples of every trooper they could find? And I think the answer was quite a lot. But when you look at that ROTS Neimoidian Guard that turned into a pegwarmer, I think that may have been the indicator that collectors weren't prepared to buy every army builder under the sun. And when we started to see offscreen Clone Troopers placed in the line? I think that happened around the time the term "skittles troopers" entered the collecting vernacular. And because of those attempts to exploit the army builder market, I think Hasbro may have driven off the customers who were accustomed to buying multiples of a single figure. I know that in the past I may have been good for some 12 - 20 of a single trooper. And now if I get up to about 6 or more it's because it's a truly remarkable figure, like the VTSC Snowtrooper.

I think we're also venturing into some pretty fringe territory with the collector focused characters/figures. The collectors who have been patronizing websites like this one are pretty well versed in characters like Willrow Hood, Yarna, Ackmena, Ben Quadrinaros, etc. But the average fan who may or may not buy a figure based on remembering the character from a movie? Or better still, a parent who's buying a figure for a kid's birthday? I think we're in a whole other realm than those folks. And I think it boils down to us being a very vocal minority while all of the parents have the mass spending power. A very valid question for us all to consider is this: how many of those parents would buy their kids a $100+ Sail Barge toy? I know that I saw more than a few conversations between a parent and child in the toy aisle talking about the Millenium Falcon, and that it was a little too much money for them to justify that purchase. Would we even see that conversation over a Sail Barge? I'm not so sure.

I think that we should still be vocal about collector focused characters. But I think we should also be accepting of the fact that some of these characters should probably be shortpacked. Yarna looks cool. And as I get my collection room together I'm looking forward to putting her into my Jabba's palace display. But it drives me crazy that every time I walk into the local TRU stores I see so many Yarna's on the pegs. And because of the situation with Yarna I feel very comfortable in saying that Willrow Hood should also be shortpacked, and so should some cantina aliens. And for those with concerns over how that kind of strategy might impact the Droid Factory build-a-figure promotion, I think Hasbro is more than capable of balancing out thosee BAF droid parts by including the same part from a collector focused figure in a repack that has a more popular/better selling character.

I disagree about the last part. The BAD is the reward for buying the "new" figures. I would not buy a repack figure for a droid part.

Well, perhaps you didn't get the gyst of what I was getting at. My hopes with Hasbro cutting down the production numbers on the collector focus characters like Yarna is an effort to stem the pegwarming that they might cause. I honestly think that pegwarming is one of the biggest threats to the line right now. I would only propose making these collector focus characters one per case max, not any sort of a chase figure. And offer the same BAF droid part with both the collector focused figure and a better selling reissue/trooper. With this kind of scheme in mind the collector can get their figure along with the droid part, and the more casual collector can use that same part to build the same droid if they buy the reissue/trooper.

This topic was sort of brought up again this week in the SWAN podcast, if any of you listen to that. They were sort of bringing up the success of the new Star Trek movie, and drawing parallels how in the past it seemed the pendulum swung back and forth between Star Trek and Star Wars. First it was Trek with its admittedly smaller following overall with the series and its repeats, then Star Wars hit theatres and pretty much ruled the late 70s/early 80s. Then Star Wars slowly died down to just comics and a couple cartoons, then eventually nothing, and Trek made a bit of a comeback in the late 80s with TNG and more movies. Then the prequels came, and Trek went back to being more obscure. Now we've got a much buzzed new Trek movie, and Star Wars is maybe a little down (in the "general public" consciousness at least).

Now the wild card here is the Clone Wars animated series, which seems to be very successful both ratings-wise and bringing the kiddos into the toyline again. I'm guessing for the most part though, outside of SW fans, it isn't being watched by a lot of general adult audience. They were talking on here that it sort of looks like we might be headed towards another "dark times" period similar to the 85-95 period previously. Again, this isn't taking into account the success of Clone Wars - but with higher prices, running out of room, and collectors possibly dropping out - do you think the "movie" stuff from Star Wars is heading for leaner times? This is sort of what we've been talking about here - so I thought it was relevant, but it seems like a lot of us, while still enjoying collecting, are getting to the point where maybe less stuff (of higher quality) is preferrable to the 100 items years we've had since ROTS.

(Thanks Nicklab for the kudos, I know the reply is over a week later.)

I agree about your Trek vs Wars pendulum for one exception - toys. Whiile they are not horrible by any means(They are no great either) I do not think the Trek toys will connect with kids the same way SW toys has. For sure we are headed for leaner times (The Dark times in my opinion)but what is really "leaner" is Hasbro's eyes? 1-2 less waves and less vehicles? I think we will see less realistic but I also think we will be surprised how much we will see at Comic Con.

I think slowing down too much can actually hurt the line long term. If there is nothing really new to hunt and really spaced out waves like we see now I really expect a big drop off like in 02-03. You know that interest is down when HTS has had the entire Wave 6 in stock with the HRS being the only one selling out. Even places like New Force comics and other etailers have not had any preorders on the last few waves. It's really sad, I want more realistic figures and hate how few we have been getting. I think every 6 weeks would be nice to see a new wave. Just please give me a killer SA Han Bespin before you really slow down Hasbro.

I have a new thread I will open, a hypothetical one. If SW Realistic was ending summer of next year and you only had 18 figures (3 Waves) and 4 vehicles left to pick who/what would they be?

Yeah, I definitely see your point regarding the toylines. I can't take credit for the pendulum theory, it was just something I heard on that podcast and thought it was worth mentioning. I'm totally unfamiliar with the various Trek lines over the years, but I can't imagine any of them were super sellers overall. I remember having a couple of figures of the original series characters (I think from one of the movie lines), and a few Next Generation figures (which I have no idea what happened to those now that I think of it), but otherwise I've never really given Star Trek toys a second look until this new movie line. Honestly, I don't think there is any movie-based line out there that can or ever will compare with Star Wars. Joe has the longevity going for it, but as long as there has been a Star Wars line on the pegs, it has been one of - if not the most - relevant it seems.

I sure hope we don't see the end of a realistic line, and I really don't think that we will. Hasbro can talk all they want about the CW success, but I still believe the realistic style is this line's bread and butter. It is nice that a new generation is getting into SW with the CW toon, but once it is over, that will be that. They can sell realistic style figures consistently whether there is new entertainment or not it seems. If they ever made the switch over to entirely animated (doing OT too), or just drop the Legacy Collection-type line and focus solely on Clone Wars or whatever the current "entertainment" was, I think they would see a big change in their sales as the line continued. I agree with you though, I want my "ultimate" Bespin Han Solo if/when things are ever going to wrap up (not to mention Hoth Luke & Leia, and maybe a Skiff Lando). I like your idea for a new thread topic. It seems like we're getting closer and closer to wrapping up some of the "Top 10" lists, or they are getting more obscure with each round.

Somewhat related to this topic....I haven't listened to it yet, but it appears that the Force Cast podcast has a special this week with Derryl DePriest called the Collector Cast (http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/ForceCast_Collectors_Cast_Special_Report_123307.asp) - where they apparently discuss the state of the line past, present, and future. Just thought I'd pass it along. Like I said, I haven't listened yet, so I don't know if there is any worthwhile news or not.

I got a chance to listen to that podcast this afternoon, and it seemed to reiterate a lot of what we've been hearing in the Q and A's lately. CW/Legends doing great, Legacy not so much. They did a lot of talk about the "Yarna issue", and how they really have to reign in the numbers on the collector-focused figures. It certainly wasn't all doom and gloom, but (and this is despite the great figures coming this year), I'm really starting to get the feeling that the Original Trilogy focus is going to get less and less over the years if this continues. They talked about the "new generation" experiencing Star Wars for the first time, as well as the kids that were 9/10 for TPM and are now entering that collector age group. I still sort of doubt that generation comes "back" to collecting toys the way many of us did, but who knows.

One quote from this podcast that did sort of hit me (I think it was from Curto), where it was mentioned that many kids are really getting into Star Wars through Clone Wars - and will continue to over the years, and could maybe not even know (or vaguely know) who Darth Vader is. That could be right, and it is crazy to think that. Star Wars to me has always been Luke, Vader, Han, Chewie, Leia, the droids, and Stormtroopers. Those days seem to be going away though.

Anyways, I may have to listen again, but they didn't necessarily get real specific about the future of the line - but I do wonder what it holds for the realistic/movie (and OT) collectors. Like I said, I can't really complain personally. I think the realistic waves we've gotten this year so far have been great, and there has been a nice OT focus with the ANH and ESB waves, and more on the way as well. Add in the BMF last year, and rumors of new vehicles like the AT-ST, Snowspeeder, etc. in the next year or so - and there is still plenty of good stuff on the way.

This is sort of loosely related here, but I didn't know if this warranted its own thread or not. I was listening to Star Wars Action News where they mentioned that news had come out that Wal-Mart will be reducing its overall toy sections in its stores. I recently noticed that our local store had a significantly smaller toy section, but they are in the process of a remodel so I wondered if it was due to that or not. They were not finished resetting the aisle last time I was there, but at the time a lot of stuff was missing (perhaps returning when they're done). Anyways, I thought this would be interesting news if it indeed happened nationwide. It should make upcoming Wal-Mart exclusives even more fun to find :). Anyways, just wanted to pass the info along.

Personally, I usually try to avoid Wal-Mart unless looking for an exclusive or a wave hits there earlier than another retailer - but apparently this (reduction of toy section) is part of an overall initiative to "de-clutter" their stores. I know that has been the big problem with our closest store, which has been better recently (even with the remodeling).

Here's the story that created the shrinking toy section rumor (http://www.toydirectory.com/monthly/article.asp?id=3745).

Walmart has since responded to the original story denying the shrinking toy section -

"Walmart has no new plans to reduce allocated shelf space for toys companywide, and any story or rumor to the contrary is false. Store assortments and quantity levels at Walmart stores will differ based on consumer demand and product trends, as well as seasonal and geographical differences. We will continue to be a leading destination for affordable, high quality toys in the markets we serve."

So, believe what you will - maybe it's just re-organizing or maybe it's just some stores that are being "redefined" because that particular store has been hit harder by less demand or something. Defeinitely doesn't sound like an overall corporate policy to shrink the toy dept though.

Thanks for the clarification Jeff. I certainly didn't mean to make it a bigger deal than it was. Honestly, SWAN was the first I heard of it, and just happened to remember our local store seeming somewhat smaller last time I was there (although, again, it was in the middle of a remodel). Our store often has been a bit smaller I think though, as we've never had the DCUC line there and have missed a number of exclusives as well.

This is a topic that seems to have been covered in this week's Q and A (once again), that collector interest is down - in particular things like the basic figure line, the comic packs, EU figures, and now vehicles have all been mentioned. I'm wondering, do you think Hasbro is right about the drop in collector interest? I know we've seen a few people here stop, or considerably slow down, on their Hasbro collecting - either shifting to other interests or dropping out all together.

It seems like we're seeing a scaling back of the line, which in some ways I think is ok. We've discussed this in other threads before too, so I won't go over it again now. I just noticed them mentioning how figures like Willrow Hood are released at numbers 30% less than a few years ago, as well as them saying how collectors aren't "buying vehicles like kids/parents do"...so it made me think of this topic again. Do you truly think the collector base is shrinking, and if so, do you think anything can bring them back? Is the CW line really supported almost totally by kids - or are collectors pitching in there as well? I know that I've picked up quite a few of the basic figures there at least, but have avoided a lot of the other stuff for the most part (aside from a few vehicles). Anyways, just curious about some other thoughts on this topic. Will we continue to see collectors drop year after year from here on out?

Compared to 2006 or 2007, I probably spent half the money this year I did in those years. It was purely what figures cost that forced me to do this.

That's not a drop in interest on my part, it's that figures, battlepacks, vehicles, and everything got jacked up in price beyond a point I considered it a value to me. I went from buying multiples of almost every basic figure and comic pack to cutting back my army building, only buying singles of many figures, and waiting for sales before I bought many of my army builders.

Battlepacks I haven't bought a single one except the Yaving Hangar set unless they were on sale. Same with the mid-sized vehicle line.

I think many people went this route, or abandoned the hobby all together. I don't view that as a loss in interest unless you quit all together, and even then it's tough to blame people when they compare prices just a year ago.

This is just my perspective though, as someone who still collects, but who hates the prices we're being asked to pay. The WM price drop, KM sales, and TRU sales have been pleasant little moments in an otherwise absurdly priced year. My personal belief is they're overpricing the toys.

If CW is selling fine at the new price, imagine how it would likely do if a price drop happened? And just because it may still be doing well doesn't mean you haven't alienated the core collectors still by jacking up prices. The two don't really relate to one another. Parents buy because they feel obligated to. Collectors buy (or don't buy) because they feel they have the ability to, and right now many don't feel they have the ability to stay on top of the modern line as it's currently priced.

Somewhat related to this topic....I haven't listened to it yet, but it appears that the Force Cast podcast has a special this week with Derryl DePriest called the Collector Cast (http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/ForceCast_Collectors_Cast_Special_Report_123307.asp) - where they apparently discuss the state of the line past, present, and future. Just thought I'd pass it along. Like I said, I haven't listened yet, so I don't know if there is any worthwhile news or not.

I havent listened to the Forcecast in a long time - but it should be nice to hear from Hasbros lead SW man - so thanks for passing it along. In the most recent Hasbro Q&A, when answering a question about comic packs - Hasbro flat out said collector interest dipped by 30-40%, which to me seems huge. I'm optimistic about the future of Legacy related products though, because its the foundation for modern collecting. At this point, I think Hasbro knows price and collectors being overwhelmed with too many products are two of the main issues. The cutbacks across the board will help, and since we wont be spending as much money on various other products, maybe it will equalize the collector base, and people wont mind spending $8 a figure if they are buying less each year.

Just bumping this up again with more Hasbro responses this week pointing to the "drop in Legacy/collector interest" - now even leading to the last Legacy wave becoming a TRU exclusive. They mention the reason being that retailers "have plenty", but that certainly isn't the case here. It may still be in the system or something, but none of our local stores (Target, WM, or TRU) have any Legacy on the pegs at all (aside from one Agen Kolar I guess). Other than that, it is all Legends or Clone Wars stuff, and stocked pretty much to the gills on all the SW pegs. I guess I can buy that collector spending has gone down to some extent, heck we've seen it on our boards here alone that a few are stopping or at least cutting back as prices get higher and collection/storage rooms get too full, but it still seems like when some Legacy stuff finally hits around here, it is gone pretty quickly. I'm not saying it necessarily outsells CW or anything, that seems like a real hit with kids and collectors alike, but it certainly isn't a pegwarming stinker either.

Some folks will just buy figures they like, or that they feel are priced affordably. They'll pick and choose and participate based on whatever relative interest they have in the line at that time. Seems like most people fall under this category.

Then you have the Collectors. (Big C) These are the folks who buy EVERYTHING, regardless of price point, articulation, character selection, etc. Just make it and put it on the shelves. As soon as possible!

I don't think Hasbro has to worry much about losing that second segment, but they are sure in jeopardy of losing that first contingent if they keep screwing with the lines they way they have been recently.

I'm beginning to lose interest, which I thought would never happen. But it's because there's barely ever any new Legacy figures at retail; my area is mired in Legends and Clone Wars; and more and more news that Hasbro's cutting back on lines like the Comic Packs, and even the upcoming EU wave being scaled back to just TRU.

I blame all of my diminishing interest on Hasbro's shoddy distribution and terrible case assortments.

Some folks will just buy figures they like, or that they feel are priced affordably. They'll pick and choose and participate based on whatever relative interest they have in the line at that time. Seems like most people fall under this category.

Then you have the Collectors. (Big C) These are the folks who buy EVERYTHING, regardless of price point, articulation, character selection, etc. Just make it and put it on the shelves. As soon as possible!

I don't think Hasbro has to worry much about losing that second segment, but they are sure in jeopardy of losing that first contingent if they keep screwing with the lines they way they have been recently.

Great analysis of the demographic. I fall in that Big C for sure. While I cut back only on the truly ridiculous I am always ready to add something new to my collection.

They have to stop the Drought/Glut cycle of product, to me it's a major contributor of the decline. You cannot starve the average collector and hold their interest. You cannot expect them to run out searching for so much product while spending so much money in a short period of time. You take away the enjoyment of collecting replacing it with a feeling of being burdened financially and mentally.

Just bumping this up again with more Hasbro responses this week pointing to the "drop in Legacy/collector interest" - now even leading to the last Legacy wave becoming a TRU exclusive. They mention the reason being that retailers "have plenty", but that certainly isn't the case here.

Pardon my French, but "bull****". I suppose they're only referring to the US situation, which is clearly all that matters. We haven't seen jack new other than Clone Wars (which I get but I'm not interested in). Some retailers have brought in U.S. carded figures, which could actually get them fined, in minimal amounts and they aren't sitting (outside of Malakili but that is in no way the fault of the store, it was completely unnecessary to release him at this point). We don't even get figures. Hasbro's own toy shop is out of popular Legacy figures and hasn't restocked of late.

Yeah, collector's interest is down because we can't find much of anything to be interested in. Store interest may be down but that might be attributable to Yarna sitting. Walmart closest to me has a baker's dozen on the pegs and nothing else. So 132 other figures sold but the stores stuck with her. Now don't misunderstand, I'm happy they made her and I bought her but Hasbro still seems to not have a clue on their own end.

I think that part of the problem lies in there being too many sublines being out at once. I don't collect Clone Wars, but that line is here to stay and should be in my opinion. There's a nice demand for it and a great media tie in. To me the line that I think has caused Legacy so many problems isn't Legacy, it's Legends. That line seems to sell through so slowly and has so many repacks of repacks, etc.

Add to it that Hasbro went a very long time in 2009 without any new Legacy hitting the pegs, or when it did it was just a random case here or there... we had a very long dry spell, then a bulge of product from ALL THREE lines hitting in the last few months of the year... talk about a kick to the wallet for a lot of people. And for every case of Legends, there seemed to be 3-4 cases of Clone Wars and Legends hitting the pegs. Something just isn't right with that formula. How in the world can Hasbro expect Legacy to compete with that?

I also think there's reason to believe that Hasbro is making less profit on the Legacy line due to there being more new tooling with these figures than the other two lines, AND the added cost of the droid parts for the B.A.D. line. Seems like if they're making $2.00 profit on each figure on the other two lines, this line would be less of a profit because they have more invested in it. So, I think a lower GP on the Legacy figures could be determining factor as well, but not one that Hasbro is going to ever admit because it would hurt their image. That's just my own theory, but it does make sense that this line costs them a bit more to produce; and Hasbro's bottom line is turning the highest profit they can (I really, really feel this is part of the reason for the changes we're seeing, and have been saying it for months...).

But, from what we are seeing Hasbro appears to be taking measures to try and turn this around. I just hope they do a better job of controlling the distribution this coming year and can throw in a few new surprises. They have a good thing going, but I think there really may be some collector interest dropping, because we've gotten some GREAT figures of main characters that everyone loves, and there comes a point where some people are going to already be happy with some of these figures and not feel the need to drop down another 8 bucks for a slight upgrade.

In spite of what they say, I think they need to dip into more of the awesome designs that a lot of collectors enjoy and have not been able to purchase, such as the KOTOR era and more TFU figures... not whole waves of them, but each wave in a year could have a KOTOR figure or TFU - some sort of tie in that could be as successful as the McQuarrie figures. They also need to stop with the constant inclusion of repacked figures into the Legacy line as well, which we did see last year some (remember the Jodo Kast wave?). And when they want to include a figure in a wave that isn't as interesting as Yarna, either throw her in a battle pack like they did with the fat Clone Wars Trandoshan, or simply limit production.

Just my two cents. I practically copied that from a post I made at Yak, but I wanted to share those thoughts here without completely rewriting it. :P

I agree with what others have said, there simply isn't a lot of Legacy stuff making it to the pegs at all. I've been fortunate I guess this past year (2009) and saw most of the waves at least once, but it was usually just once and never again - for the most part. Clone Wars on the other hand I see all the time, and it continues to sell great. Like CHEWIE mentioned, CW is getting the big push now - and it should be. For all intents and purposes, it is this generation of kids' "Star Wars" the way many of us had in the 70s/80s. Taken by itself for what it is, it really is a pretty fun line. It was mentioned in another thread here, but they probably go through 2 to 3 cases of CW figures for every one of Legacy. I know I've been working part time stocking at Target, and we get a ton more CW stuff in than Legacy or even Legends, and it sells through pretty quickly for the most part.

Hasbro, for all its faults, does seem to be pulling out all the stops this year - aside from the large break once again. We're getting the collector friendly vintage packaging, and OT "big" vehicle again, as well as re-dos of much requested items like the Cloud Car, Jabba with Dais, and Snowspeeder. All that together makes for a pretty nice year. I hope the line goes on for a long time yet, but if we get a couple more years with product like that, I think we'd be finished out fairly well with the movie stuff (not that I want it to go away).

They have to stop the Drought/Glut cycle of product, to me it's a major contributor of the decline. You cannot starve the average collector and hold their interest. You cannot expect them to run out searching for so much product while spending so much money in a short period of time. You take away the enjoyment of collecting replacing it with a feeling of being burdened financially and mentally.

Once again I agree completely. This is one of if not the biggest problems with the line to date.

Here's the thing, collectors (big "C" or not) collect all year around. So we need to see that product all year around.

Kids may very well buy into stuff all year as well, but traditionally parents by MORE in the fall to early winter in preparation for Christmas. This is a known fact.

I'm betting that if the Legacy stuff (and I'm talking the new stuff per case, not the crappy refresh cases with previous figures) were available all year around, Hasbro would have seen a MUCH better showing for sales.

but they chose the quick and easy path by going with Legends. No new tooling, no BaD part, same price, instant profits...or was it. Other than some figs for charity I bought no Legends figures for myself. All Legacy and a scant few CW. Hasbro can blame me for that as a collector.

Why on God's earth would I buy the same clone repacked when I already got him a year or two or more and for CHEAPER, in some cases significantly cheaper? My best example I can think of off hand is Commander Devis. This was just a clone commander for ROTS back in 2005. FIVE years ago. What were we paying for figures back then? About $5 to $5.50 per figure. Okay, so he includes a BaD part. That part isn't worth a $1, but let's say it is. The figure should not have cost more than $6-6.50. Yet, he was reissued as a Legacy figure for close to if not $8. Other clones are similarly done but in the Legends packaging. Again, $8? All we get more of are some weapons accessories that I'm betting a PENNIES to make.

If Hasbro is going to have a subline like Legends, then be at least FAIR about it. Have it packaged as a completely different look from CW and the realistic line. Sell those cheaper since the molds are already long done. Call it the "Armies of SW" or something, I don't care, but quit screwing the consumer. You, Hasbro, wonder why we collectors have started to buy less? Read this thread alone and you have your answers.

Honestly, I'm SO glad I decided to budget myself years ago. It's made it easier to buy less. But to add to that Hasbro's decisions have made it even easier than that. I'd buy more (since I'm still well within my budget) if they made the figures I want, made them available all year around and didn't try to wring every dollar from me.

Why on God's earth would I buy the same clone repacked when I already got him a year or two or more and for CHEAPER, in some cases significantly cheaper? My best example I can think of off hand is Commander Devis. This was just a clone commander for ROTS back in 2005. FIVE years ago. What were we paying for figures back then? About $5 to $5.50 per figure. Okay, so he includes a BaD part. That part isn't worth a $1, but let's say it is. The figure should not have cost more than $6-6.50. Yet, he was reissued as a Legacy figure for close to if not $8. Other clones are similarly done but in the Legends packaging. Again, $8? All we get more of are some weapons accessories that I'm betting a PENNIES to make.

Well, according to Hasbro (and I tend to agree) the Legends line was designed for casual collectors and kids who are looking for core characters. Made sense...a few years ago. Then the economy hit folks (say bye bye to casual collectors) and the kid part of that equation transitioned to gobbling up the CW stuff for obvious reasons. They don't even LOOK at the Legends when there are CW figs on the pegs!

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If Hasbro is going to have a subline like Legends, then be at least FAIR about it. Have it packaged as a completely different look from CW and the realistic line. Sell those cheaper since the molds are already long done. Call it the "Armies of SW" or something, I don't care, but quit screwing the consumer.

Will never happen. You can't have the same product (don't kid yourself, it is) right next to each other at different price points. That will definitely screw with the consumer! ;-)

Plus, how many times have you seen the Legends, Legacy, and CW figs all intermixed on the pegs?

Exactly.

Stores can't afford to have every other consumer come up to the register claiming they found the newest Legacy figure on the $5.50 peg.

Yeah, the pricing sucks but it's not a problem you can really fix. Look how when an ad comes out, it may specifically mention Legends or something, but people take CW and Legacy trying to get the sale price... and often it works. The different SKU's should fix that and I think Hasbro believes there's less a problem than there may be, but if there's Legends right next to Legacy but 2 different prices, there's going to be mass retailer/consumer confusion and stuff.

I just don't understand why the legends figures can't be slotting in with the Legacy case assortments and get rid of the Legends SKU altogether.

The benefits would be:1) Help keep the assortment cost down2) Gets the core characters out there like Hasbro wants

and now with the Vintage collection coming3) Brings an impressive variety of figures to the vintage packaging style that collectors may want to pick up solely for the look of the line

I could take the complete list of all Saga Legends figures and all Legacy waves from July 2008 through to the EU wave and I could easily slot in the characters that Hasbro wants out there.

There wouldn't be as much repitition in my list though - I wouldn't ship the 2005 Plo Koon in the same year an updated Plo Koon sculpt is being released. I wouldn't put out two different General Grievous, Darth Maul or ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi figures either. And new figures wouldn't get re-shipped in the four follow-on assortments.

There's no reason why Mynock Han and Mynock Chewie couldn't be filler figures in either of the ESB Legacy waves.There's no reason why Yoda w/Kybuk couldn't have been filler in the EU wave.There's no reason why Saesee Tiin couldn't have been filler in one of the ROTS waves.There's no reason why C-3PO on the Ewok Thron couldn't have been filler in the ROTJ wave.There's no reason why X-Wing Luke and Darth Vader couldn't have been filler in the ANH waves.

Removing that third SKU from rotation helps to situation immensely.

Retail chains don't see/understand/care what figures in a case of 12. They just order cases.

If everything was in one case, here are the scenarios:

1) (Big C) Collectors would buy every figure in the assortment to have a complete set of the line - Win-win

2) Next tier collectors would buy all of the "new" figures in the wave leaving the slotted in "Core Characters" behind for the kids Hasbro claims are the audience - again win-win

3) Cherry-picking collectors who buy only what they want get those and again, kids are still left with the "Core Characters" to buy - slightly less of a win since you may end up with one or two figures left over.

The retailer's inventory systems would note the sale and more cases would be ordered. Mission accomplished.

1) (Big C) Collectors would buy every figure in the assortment to have a complete set of the line - Win-win

2) Next tier collectors would buy all of the "new" figures in the wave leaving the slotted in "Core Characters" behind for the kids Hasbro claims are the audience - again win-win

3) Cherry-picking collectors who buy only what they want get those and again, kids are still left with the "Core Characters" to buy - slightly less of a win since you may end up with one or two figures left over.

The retailer's inventory systems would note the sale and more cases would be ordered. Mission accomplished.

On these points I need to disagree.Having these in the same case and in the same packaging and same SKU is going to lead to (going to your points):1) Not so many "big C" collectors out there to take a whole case. Really you're one of a very rare few these days.2) While true we "smaller c" collectors would by the new figures, that just leaves the Legends types figures on the pegs.3) Don't we all kinda not like those who cherry pick (at anything)...lol

Seriously though, leaving just the core characters for kids is a problem. I almost never see kids or their parents, grandparents buying realistic style figures anymore. The CW line really killed a lot of that interest with the kiddies.

So what you're proposing will leave many of those legends type figures on the shelves, and once stores start having clogged up shelves they won't be able to order anything new.

Which means we won't see the NEW figures. Once a case would come in, you can bet, either the store clerks would cherry pick the new figs or the first collector to come along would snatch them all up, again leaving only the legends type figures. Which once again will add to the glut.

I think the bad thing was having all three lines look virtually the same. If you're only looking at the front (as most casual people will-not talking casual collectors, just anyone), you don't see a difference. What some little red, orange, or black strip at the top? That means nothing to a casual person and you can bet it means that or less to store stockers.

You can bet that the stockers are just pulling any SW figure case to fill pegs or their managers are telling them something on that order.

Since Hasbro produced less Legacy figures, it stands to reason that stores could only order more of CW and Legends cases. Thereby the glut.

IMO, the big solve here is to do away with Legends, but we know that won't happen. So the next solve is to produce less Legends and more Legacy/Vintage. Hasbro should try that out for a year at least to see if the numbers change. I'm betting heavily they would.

But in this, those card designs MUST be different. Otherwise there is no way to differentiate them quickly to the stockers or their managers. I know, I've tried. They look at me like I'm crazed. They don't care or don't see the difference between an orange, red or black topped card. They just know to fill the pegs.

If the cards were significantly different then I could say, "see THIS style of card. This is the Vintage style, this is what is selling and isn't on the pegs, you need to order more of this specific style." Or something to that affect.

I think the discussion is moot. Figures have not sold as well in the past few years, so there is no way retailers are going to carry four lines of figures. The Clone Wars is their best seller, we already know there is a vintage line on the way, so that just leaves one spot left for some kind of Legacy/Legends line. Further out, we'll have the TV series figs, the Clone Wars, and some combined form of Legacy figures.

The only reason Hasbro seems to continually provide as to why Legends even exists is to provide access to "Core Characters" to kids and/or new collectors to the hobby.

So if that's the case, it really shouldn't matter if each Vintage assortment contains six new figures and six repacked "Legends"/"Greatest Hits" figures. That kid/new collector audience will snatch them right up!

Of course, I'm being sarcastic with that last statement. Of course it will mean that entire halves of cases go unsold and un-wanted product will clog the shelves.

The problem though is that Hasbro uses repacks/repaints to help keep the costs of assortments down. So they are going to happen no matter what, they are the reality of the line these days. Hasbro has even said that there will be 48 figures in four waves in 2010 with 24 of them being "new".

So if I were to have a choice between two options: 1) there are Legends and Vintage SKUs vs. 2) there is a single SKU and the other 24 "old" figures help (a) keep Hasbro's cost of each assortment down and (b) give Hasbro a way of getting "core characters" out to kids/new collectors.

Every single one of those figures that I list above could have been slotted into the Legacy line as fillers for their respective waves - instead of shipping Padme Amidala, Death Star II Luke, Boba Fett and Commander Deviss in an assortment dedicated to ANH - why not include X-Wing Pilot Luke, Darth Vader and the Sandtrooper? The end result would probably be the same - the figures left behind were the older repack ones.

The ROTJ wave could have had the C-3PO figure.

The ESB wave could have had the two Mynock Hunt figures.

The ROTS wave could have had the ROTS Clone, Saesee Tiin, Shocktrooper and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I could go on and on but I'm sure you get my point.

By mixing repacked core characters into the case, Hasbro would be able to make a compelling argument to the retailers to order MORE of the various Legacy/Vintage assortments as opposed to what probably did happen:

Hasbro Rep: "Hey we got three lines, one for the cartoon, one for the collectors and one for the kids who want characters from the movies"

Box Store Toy Buyer: "I'll take lots of the stuff from the cartoon and lots of the line for kids who want figures from the movies and I guess I'll take some of the ones for the adults who still play with toys"

The other issue with the two separate lines is that you can end up with two versions of the same character on the pegs at the same time. When the Phantom Menace wave hit, there was the second Evolutions Maul and the Maul from the Sith Speeder. When the ANH wave hit, there was the Legends Electronic R2 and the "Jawa Capture" R2. And the worst example of this is the fact that the Legends Plo Koon is one of the more prevalent Legends peg warmers and Hasbro put an updated version of him in the ROTS Legacy wave, and to add insult to injury, they put him in the ESB wave, so on one visit, I had my choice of Legends Plo Koon, Plo Koon with YVH-1 Part and Plo Koon with HK-50 part. That's just lousy planning when you have two versions of essentially the same character out at once, you are competing against yourself. No kid, new collector or casual collector are going to feel compelled to own two different Plo Koon figures.

I'll agree with you on this one point for sure, but not in the execution of it. I want Legends gone for good, not another line, and definitely not mixed into the "vintage" line.

But alas, I know we need to have "core" characters on the pegs. That's part of the problem though. Hasbro's character choice of who/what makes a core character is downright dreadful at times. Don't get me wrong, I love the character of Plo Koon, but a core character he does NOT make.

One thing I'm kind of surprised with in the Legends line, is that why they aren't CW figures (or even just included in that line). Hasbro continually talks about how the line (Legends) is big with kids, and the CW is all the rage with kids right now (in fact, I even question how much most kids care about the movie stuff at this point) - so why not just use CW figures as their "legends"? I know they already include repacks in the regular waves (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Rex, etc.) - but they could just continue on. Anything else that is in the Legends assortment for "new collectors" could be included in the Vintage cases - such as army builders (AOTC Clone, Stormtrooper, Snowtrooper, Biker Scout) or other "greatest hits" styled figures (EB/VOTC Chewie, X-Wing Luke, VOTC Han, Leia, Evolutions Vader, ROTS Obi-Wan/Anakin, etc.) Anyways, a long way of saying I'd just as soon see them incorporate the best version of the main characters and army builders into the vintage cases (or in the army builders case, battle packs too) and put out more of the CW big sellers in those cases. I'm in the boat of wanting to see the Legends line go away. I understand the purpose of it, but I think it could be served another way - and get rid of the three lines competing for the same space at retail.

Well, as someone who works in Market Research, I would question how knowledgable Hasbro really is about who is buying what figures. I am sure they have consumer data showing that Clone Wars figures are popular with kids and I'm sure they have consumer data showing that Vader, Yoda, etc. are big kid favorites.

On the flip side, I seriously doubt that the current Legends lineup holds much interest for kids. It's just easier to say that than "This is our high-profit line of re-packs which provides us with the cash flow to keep newer sculpts at a reasonable price." Maybe the line sells better in other areas, but it didn't move much in stores near me, even through the holidays.

From a marketing perspective, it's best for them to hold on to as many different lines of product as they can. If you have three assortments, big retail needs to carry pegs to support all three of them. If you chop it to two assortments, big retail can reduce the minimum shelf space needed (and subsequently their orders). I'm betting Hasbro just wants to hold onto the space Legends gets long enough to get CW/Legacy/TV Show figs into distribution. If they dropped Legends now, it would be that much harder to find space for those three down the road.

They can repack some of the best broad appeal figures that would sell and get many collectors to buy more of. Instead we get a 90's Maul with worse deco than before, Sae See Tinn again, Plo Koon when the new one is out at the same time, the 2006 Sandtrooper, 2001 Bespin Han. Legends would not be that bad if they reshuffled the mix more often. I am fine with repacks or having core characters just have the better versions of them. I would buy so much more for custom purposes alone.

They can repack some of the best broad appeal figures that would sell and get many collectors to buy more of. Instead we get a 90's Maul with worse deco than before, Sae See Tinn again, Plo Koon when the new one is out at the same time, the 2006 Sandtrooper, 2001 Bespin Han. Legends would not be that bad if they reshuffled the mix more often. I am fine with repacks or having core characters just have the better versions of them. I would buy so much more for custom purposes alone.

I'd agree with most of those choice Jack, but not Fisto. He;s just not a main character. Likewise, Qui-gon is so far removed from the movies and isn't in the cartoon. And I'm really tired of Sandtroopers. We've plenty of those over the last year or two. Army builders yes, but very specific ones. Regular Stormtroopers I can understand. As to Vader, while he should be out there, he should be limited. Look what happened a couple of years ago when we had a plethora of Vader out there.

While I bought a ton of the Utapau trooper, and I'm assuming you mean the ROTS version and not the CW phase 1 armor, again, it's rather scene specific. Also, it's from a movie and not the "more popular cartoon."

Frontline main characters should have some presence in the Legends line, so to main army builders. Secondary characters not so much in fact nearly not at all. Secondary army builder a little. Tertiary characters and troopers forget about it.

I stilll think the Legend sline has to end. I understand Hasbro's want for it, but I think it's been mismanaged and yes, it's help in collector drop off and disinterest.

Now here's the funny thing about that statement, which is basically what Hasbro is saying.

If kids and casual buyers are the main focus, then why even blame we collectors at all. In fact shouldn't it be the kids they blame for buying trends? You know they won't do that. And if it's we collectors who are being blamed and subsequently are seeming to be the driving force in the Legacy line, then we've caught Hasbro in their own lie that they've tried to cover up. Fact is we ARE important to then for sales, otherwise they would just drop the realistic line altogether.

As JediJman astutely showed, Hasbro cannot afford to give up the third line, be it Legends or Realistic, less they give away precious peg and shelf space.

They created the Legends line for more profit per figure since virtually no tool and dye was needed. So cost of figure was less and it isn't as bad when they don't sell because they supposedly have a much higher profit margin per figure than the Legacy line.

I defy anyone to say that they have a flood of Legacy figures on the shelf though that aren't moving. Yes, maybe an occasional figure, but not from the black topped new cards. Those are practically nonexistent. Just read here on JD or any number of other collecting sites. But take that analogy to Legends and you see we're swimming in figures.

Hasbro SCREWED up. Not we collectors.

Hasrbo MUST lower the production numbers for Legends while increasing numbers for Legacy (soon to be Vintage).

Sorry for the rant, I'm just getting tired of the argument, especially from Hasbro.

I wouldn't buy any of those figures. A line of repackaged figures has zero interest for me. I was game back during TAC when they were releasing previous exclusive figures and army builing repaints, but outside of that I'm not buying.

The problem with a lot of those is their relative obscurity... I'd buy various ones you listed too Jman, but Hasbro's repacks are more of a thing for the casual buyer, or army builder... more than something for the collectors.

I'd love another shot at multiple Amanin Warriors from that set. Really I'd probably go nuts with those. Hobbie from the TIE Fighter was an interesting figure but who does he ultimately appeal to, ya know? But the TIE Interceptor pilot's a vision of near perfection, so I would be in on those too...

Unfortunately though the Hasbro mantra is getting Vader's, Han's, Lukes and that type of stuff to the pegs. I like some of JACK's ideas on updates though and I agree some of the stuff they've dished out is really not appealing to the collectors. I think Hasbro has the ability to at least draw some attention from them as well, and they're simply not doing it right now with many figures. Bespin Han for instance... I think it's a good idea to get Han back out in some form, but POTJ Bespin Han? And that Speeder Maul too? Really?

Agreed on Vader too... Put the 2-piece helmet Vader back out and I may actually buy one for a specific shelf display with Luke, either dueling or Luke holding him with the helmet off and the parts of it laying beside the two figures. That was a dandy looking figure, and it's a dandy companion to the new DS Duel Luke we got.

Likewise I could see the Dewback Sandtrooper coming out in white and dirty... Why? I'd buy dirty ones to put on my Dewback, and wouldn't many others? It's the only trooper that can ride it realistically, but the ones we got are very clean. Why not milk that mold a little more? I've got 3 Dewbacks, so 3 Troopers bought by me right there if they're redecoed. Likewise I'd probably buy 10 more clean too, for the rifle and to have a super-duper articulated basic Stormtrooper. I'm game there.

Here's a figure I think they'd be wise to put into the rotation too... The SA Removable helmet Clone Trooper from the Ball Turret battlepacks. SA, + removable helmet. Include a pilot helmet and a plain white trooper helmet and 2 guns. Voila, great army builder and I think people would get sucked into buying 1 or 10 of them, even if they felt "Cloned out" to a degree.

The key's appealing to the kiddies who want these characters, but also trying to draw any collector-interest you can while you're at it.

There's really a TON of figures I think have this cross-interest-ability to them... It sure as hell ain't POTJ Bespin Han and Speeder Maul though. ;D

The problem with a lot of those is their relative obscurity... I'd buy various ones you listed too Jman, but Hasbro's repacks are more of a thing for the casual buyer, or army builder... more than something for the collectors.

I actually think these would do really well with casual buyers and army builders. I'd army build TIE pilots, stealth scouts, and ewoks. Maybe even BAD figures as I could mix and match more of the pieces. As for casual buyers, those are the guys probably not buying big exclusive sets like the Oversized TIE or Stealth Trooper from SDCC, so all the more opportunity for a sale to someone new. Case and Talon may be a reach, but I think those are two of the most popular EU figs right now and I know a few people would pick them up if they were single carded.

As for the current lineup, I totally get the idea of appealing to kids, but that doesn't seem to be happening since these are just sitting. There's no Darth Vader in the current assortment...there's a darth maul, but most mom's I know don't find him very kid friendly. The Wave 5 lineup includes Han, Chewie, Obi, Anakin. Those are well and good unless you factor in there are likely a couple of animated Anakins and Obi-Wans right next these in the Clone Wars line. The rest of the figs are clone repaints and a couple of alien Jedi, which you could get from the Legacy line.

Everyone's tastes are different I suppose, but I'm betting some of the exclusive obscure stuff would sell much better in this line.

I actually think these would do really well with casual buyers and army builders.

I agree on the Army Builders for sure... That TIE Pilot I'd love to add many more to my army, same with some of the others. But the whole Legends thing's aim at casual buyers is targeting what they recognize... Will they recognize any EU character at all? Will they buy Hobbie in TIE Pilot garb, or whatnot? Hasbro's looking to get the most out of the Legends is their aim, and so they're aimed at army builders who almost buy anything (and who Hasbro's been acknowledging a lot more in recent years), and then the kids/casual buyers who want a Vader for their sandbox or their cubicle I think...

I'm not saying I wouldn't want to buy another Hobbie or two because I kind of wouldn't mind making all the Rand Ecliptic defectors actually, but how many people really would want that figure out of the "core" collectors out there? Same with characters like Cade Skywalker, or the Amanin (who has at least an "army building" thing going for it, but again probably more among the core collectors than the other markets).

I would love to see the Yavin Hangar Technician personally, but Hasbro seems to feel exactly like I'm saying that it's a "boring human character nobody but core collectors would want". So he's ultimately still a rarity. To me they'd sell a lot of him, at least to a point, but I guess they don't feel Legends is the vessel for a figure like him. Maybe a more limited re-release as a repack in the basic line would be more likely for things like this? Still they're weird about what they slip in the repacks too.

That seems to be where their A-List stuff comes into play a lot.

I think that TIE Pilot has a good chance at coming back in some capacity at some point though...

For the Shadow Scout I'd really rather they gave us that Storm Commando from the Evolutions set... Man that's a sweet figure I would like about 30 more of. :(

I'm in the boat that would just as soon see the Legends assortment go away, but as we've discussed, it probably isn't happening. I think Hasbro could cover what they are looking to accomplish with Legends with smartly repacked figures in both the CW and upcoming Vintage lines, but then there's that whole "space at retail" thing to add into the equation.

Aside from that, if we have to have that assortment, I think it could be better served if they just made smart choices. Primary characters and army builders for the most part, and the absolute best versions available for that. The same could be said for repackaged figures in the other two lines. For the most part, no figures prior to the ROTS line should really be considered (there are exceptions of course). Otherwise, I think you could rotate in any number of the "ultimate" figures we've gotten over the past few years and people wouldn't complain nearly as much:

There are many others you could add to the list, but I think if you kept it to the "big guns" and the ultimate army builders, maybe you wouldn't see as many complaints. I still don't think three lines are necessary, but if it was full of figures like this I wouldn't mind as much. Like it was said earlier, you don't want to dip too deep into secondary stuff (with a few exceptions - possibly Commander Cody, bounty hunters, Lando, Mace Windu, etc.), and I still think this could be accomplished with the repacked figures we already see in both other lines - but this wouldn't be as bad for me personally.

The Legends assortment does not have go away all they have to do is upgrade the offerings, it would greatly help without messing with the "space at retail" issue. If they have choice repacks in the Vintage line to boot they may be able to grow the so called casual collector as a larger variety of characters will be available. This is not rocket science so I really hope they took a look at this. I understand they were caught off guard but they need to be honest with themselves. Some apathy set in and they got a lazy without realizing it.

They could even freshen it the line up without new tooling and bring in more collectors back in. Here is a revision to balance the Kid collector appeal that I took a stab at earlier with Brians list but with more big gun "upgrade/newness":

I am trying to be realistic as possible with this. EU characters would not work here I would plunk down money on Legends again in a heartbeat if they had 255 of the above. This is a no brainer, they can knock out some great redecos here and keep everyone engaged.

I know it has been discussed before on here, but in combination with the higher prices and wonky shipping schedule (and the fact that a lot of us have just be "in the game" for a long time now) - I think a lot of the problem that is contributing to driving some people off is the sheer volume of stuff put out in any given year now. If someone is collecting both CW and Legacy it is even worse (and I can't even imagine the headache for completists). Even with the supposed downhill slide of "movie style" Legacy stuff, we've still seen a lot over the past couple years. I know a lot of us sort of welcomed a "scaling back" of the line, and maybe we will start to see that. I think the pace we had back in the POTF2 (particularly later years) and even POTJ line wouldn't be bad at all. I can't imagine how stress-free (and budget friendly) it would be to look for 36-40 figures a year, a handful of ships, and maybe a couple of exclusives. Not that I want everything to go away, but it has been a little overwhelming lately. If they could manage to space things out better, even having 6 waves of 6 figures each (one wave every other month ideally) - in addition to some well thought out repacks (good figures) - it would be kind of nice. This is just speaking of Legacy (or now Vintage), as I think the CW line has a pretty good pace for it for kids (or collectors). Still have the one "big item" to look forward to each holiday season, alongside some new starfighter assortment vehicles, a nice vehicle/beast/BP exclusive at each of the big three, and maybe a few more little surprises along the way.

Beating discussions to a bloody Ewok stone axe death is a great SW past time!

I am in that rare camp that does not want to see a slowdown at all in the Figure department. The Vehicles and Exclusives is an area that I do not mind a slowdown on. In fact I thought this year had some of the weakest exclusives to date (Ecliptic Tie, CE pack, Most of the Comp Pack Exclusive, Target BW Tie, WM Droid Factory). I rather see fewer vehicles but have them knock them out of the park, seems like they are already on this path anyway for the most part. I really enjoyed the high times of the Saga2/TAC days. Back then the product was spaced out so it did not feel overwhelming and always gave you something to look forward to and kept you engaged. Waves came out on a regular basis that gave enough time to track them down, store traffic was consistent and sell through was solid.

I would be very satisfied with 36-40 Single Card figures, I am not liking the current 24 count at all, but that may change after TF when I can really gauge the strategy. From the 52 days this is a major cutback, too deep of a cut in my opinion. However they may be factoring in that more hardcore collectors will buy the repacks more often because of Vintage card back. I for one will change my collecting habits as I am an opener but the only figures I ever bought doubles of to keep carded was the vintage. So I will be buying doubles again as I am hanging them on my collection room walls, this will get expensive quick but I make sure I budget save and sell to fund my addiction. I dread going back to the POTJ days, while the line was really great for the time it was so slow with new releases. I do not mind them scaling back but not a major yield. I am pretty much on the same page as you Brian but it will be interesting to see the amount of product Hasbro has on tap this year compared to last to see what they consider a slowdown while pulling out the stops for the collector to get them back in the fold.

I dread going back to the POTJ days, while the line was really great for the time it was so slow with new releases.

I really enjoyed collecting back in the POTJ days. I loved how we weren't overloaded and everything was evenly spaced....Probably the best time I had in this hobby. Not sure about you guys but I also have two other toy lines that I collect so I'd welcome back those days with open arms - but it'll never happen. Sorry for not typing up a few paragraphs on the subject gang. ;)

I also have two other toy lines that I collect so I'd welcome back those days with open arms - but it'll never happen. Sorry for not typing up a few paragraphs on the subject gang. ;)

How dare you not type a long winded paragraph!!!

You comment about collecting more lines is a good point for many collectors. The only other line I collect is MOTU Classics which is really manageable. I am a very focused collector so that what influences my habits/comments and whay I want more >:D I chose a long time ago to focus solely (Until the sweet MOTUC line) on SW to maximize my money and create an impressive collection. (Also SW has outlasted pretty much every other Toy Line, even Marvel Legends so you always know that it would be around for a long time.)

I dread going back to the POTJ days, while the line was really great for the time it was so slow with new releases.

I really enjoyed collecting back in the POTJ days. I loved how we weren't overloaded and everything was evenly spaced....Probably the best time I had in this hobby. Not sure about you guys but I also have two other toy lines that I collect so I'd welcome back those days with open arms - but it'll never happen. Sorry for not typing up a few paragraphs on the subject gang. ;)

Yeah, aside from maybe the VOTC/OTC line(s), I don't know if I ever enjoyed collecting more than the POTJ line. Sure, figures have improved since then, but the quality for the time was great, the waves were mixed in nice ratios it seemed, and things came out at a nice pace. Like you mentioned, I'm one who collects other lines as well (but probably shouldn't), so the slow down is more welcome for that reason too.

I dread going back to the POTJ days, while the line was really great for the time it was so slow with new releases.

I really enjoyed collecting back in the POTJ days. I loved how we weren't overloaded and everything was evenly spaced....Probably the best time I had in this hobby. Not sure about you guys but I also have two other toy lines that I collect so I'd welcome back those days with open arms - but it'll never happen. Sorry for not typing up a few paragraphs on the subject gang. ;)

I'll chime in on the POTJ joy theme. That's the time I got back into collecting and figures were even absurdly expensive ($11.99 at TRU before taxes) but I didn't mind all that much. The figures were nice enough in execution, some new/novel figures came out and the cards were decent enough. The gaps between waves wasn't all that huge and frankly made it tolerable to pay THAT MUCH for figures as you could save up for them.

Now insert about 350 words randomly for me bitching about Hasbro and move onto the next paragraph.

I think hasbro has it figured out with the CW stuff - if it sells get it out there. At the same time though if they're expecting the license to have any life out there until 2018, they'd probably not ignore any segment of their market.

When you talk about collectors whose interest has dropped, you are referring to me. I collected Star Wars as a kid back in the early 80s right up till the bitter end of the original Power of the Force. I jumped right back in in '95. I bought everything up until the prequels started coming out, and then started to pick and choose, while maintaining an OT interest that precluded me passing any of that stuff up. I have fond memories of POTJ and even fonder of OTC in '04. Looking back on it, I didn't buy much of that year's offerings, but it was a joy to see the stuff at the store.

I took off most of '05 due to disinterest in the ROTS line, although some stuff like Tarkin and 3P0 kept me checking the pegs. I bought a few Wookiees to use as placeholders for the Thrawn trilogy characters I have longed for.

'06 was fun, the new Saga was made a lot more interesting to me because I avoided the forums and the websites and stumbled on figures for the first time at the store like I had as a kid. I'll never forget seeing Foul Moudama at the store...a Talz at retail!!!

By '07 I came back to the web and followed the 30AC from here, never getting too involved and happily finding everything I wanted. It was around this time that I had my collector epiphany: Hasbro was never going to stop making figures, and didn't seem about to slow down either. I didn't want everything they made, but I was still emotionally invested in every new wave and wanted to support the line. JACKOFTRADZE called it an abusive relationship and he's right: we just keep on playing the role of codependent. To make sense of it all I made a Master List of all the figures I ever wanted, figuring that in due time Hasbro will make all of them (plus a whole lot more that I could remain emotionally disinterested in.) This did wonders for my collector angst, and help me really focus in on what my collection was to me.

'08 Found me watching the Legacy line's arrival with trepidation. There was pretty much nothing announced that fit my new criteria (except the impressive Falcon) and I had to settle for the thought of having the year off. Once the stuff started hitting I really lost interest with keeping up with the updates and basically bailed. I blamed a lot of my disappointment on having gotten so involved here again, and having spoiled the new figure finds. So I stopped paying so much attention. I knew up through the Tatooine wave of earlier this year, and after that and the Yavin Battle Pack I was happy as "done until I see something still on my Master List."

The past few months have shown me some Empire figures I resisted except for Needa (from the List!) and just a couple weeks ago a Snowspeeder Luke. The master list is holding at 30 or so strong. I still look in the toy aisles, and checking out the Toy Fair coverage here I like the looks of the new stuff I saw even if I know I won't buy any of it except Dack.

In short, I still feel like a collector (little c for sure) but one who has gotten little support from Hasbro these past few years. I can't justify buying the same things again (Legends) or the new cartoon toys (since that's a separate entity to me), I no longer get even a few of the prequel figures, and the OT stuff I "need" is not lining up very well with what Hasbro is producing. In effect, I am what is killing the line. Sorry.

Sorry that you're not happy with what Hasbro's been pushing the past few years... I guess from what it sounds like you're saying, is that you have a specific niche of what you want to see Hasbro make. I can't see Hasbro at this point trying to cater to any specific niche, otherwise they're going to lose their broad base. But, hopefully they'll continue to make things here and there that keep the hobby enjoyable for you.

Anyways, even when they make major upgrades to figures of characters that you like (and that you have decent versions of)... are you not interested in those figures either? For instance, let's say they upgraded the ANH Tarkin or something (since you have the ROTS version, which I think is pretty weak) - would you care if they made one of Needa quality?

Far from being unhappy with the recent offerings from Habro, I have actually really enjoyed seeing the stuff, especially since I have divorced myself from the theory that liking it means I ought to take it home. If everyone took that philosophy, the line would surely die, but as it is I get to enjoy the new stuff for the novelty.

As far as what I'm looking for, it's just odds and ends to fill the gaps in the OT stuff...guys like Bom Vimdin and Grizz Frix. Serious upgrades I'm looking for are sparse, Nien Nunb and Uncle Owen pop to mind immediately. And then there are my pet EU wants, chief among them Heir to the empire characters and Splinter of the Mind's Eye figures.

To address your hypothetical directly I have the ROTS Tarkin repaint from the Imperial Briefing set and I am satisfied with that. I just can't justify buying these incremental upgrades anymore. I was happy to see new Ugnaughts and a good articualted Death Star Escape Han Solo, but I don't feel the need to replace the ones I've got at this point. Upgrades are really a case by case situation for me then. I've taken the upgrade ride for way too many years to get all that excited about them anymore, especially since I broke out of the Collector mindset.

And, on a tangential note, one of the figures I have on my list is Medical Frigate Luke...yet when I saw what Habro offered in that regard last spring I deemed it a subpar attempt (blame the too puffy soft goods, I guess) and passed it up, preferring to not replace the custom version I made years ago.

I certainly don't expect Hasbro to limit what they make to what I want to fill out my collection. I scratch my head at some of the decisions (The B-Wing Nien Nunb and upgraded Malkili, for example) but on the whole I am very happy with where my collecting has left me.

I was happy to see new Ugnaughts and a good articualted Death Star Escape Han Solo, but I don't feel the need to replace the ones I've got at this point. Upgrades are really a case by case situation for me then.

Please please please tell me that you do not consider the DS Escape Han to be an upgrade of any version of this figure ever. I would rather be stuck with nothing but Fruit Loops Han Trooper than the Legacy Han Turd we got last year.

Thanks, CHEWIE.I certainly don't expect Hasbro to limit what they make to what I want to fill out my collection. I scratch my head at some of the decisions (The B-Wing Nien Nunb and upgraded Malkili, for example) but on the whole I am very happy with where my collecting has left me.

Nothing wrong with being selective in how you collect. If everyone had that view, I'm sure Hasbro would focus on just the kid stuff, but I do have some envy for you. You're saving a lot of money, and probably a lot of time and headaches with the direction you've taken.

I'll tell you what. Where as I decreased my purchasing by eliminating a carded collection and not picking up repacked items in recent years, the vintage set is getting me excited all over again. I'm thinking about dumping my carded collection (POTF2 - 30AVC) in favor doing a more vintage carded oriented theme.

I think many may do that actually. Drop everything and go with a vintage carded focus. It narrows what carded guys may consider a complete collection.

As an opener that's the only stuff I ever collected doubles of to keep packaged. After the TF confirmation of Vintage I recently removed them all from the clam shell and hung them on my collection wall. It looks great and I cannot wait to add more to fill it out. I will update my collection room pics this weekend so other can see, it really is the way to go as there is a foreseeable end to it if this really does have a 2 year run..

Regarding "collector interest" - I'm starting to wonder if it is decreasing to some extent as well. It may just be the way I remember it, but it just seems like the forums were a lot more "alive" post Toy Fair, Comic Con, etc. than they are now. I'm not saying no one is posting or discussing things, but it seems like things die back down fairly quickly (and not just with Star Wars). I remember there being a lot of discussions back when we first saw the VOTC figures, or the first figures from the ROTS line, or even in the days of seeing prototypes of the AOTC figures. They were talked to death, speculated on, etc. Same went even a couple years ago when the whole BMF Falcon thing started up on Galactic Hunter.

Like I said, it isn't just in Star Wars. I remember seeing the same sort of enthusiasm when we'd see new waves of Marvel Legends (or whatever other line you may follow). Now we have a little discussion, but not nearly as much. Granted, there isn't as much enthusiasm for Marvel Universe since the switch from Legends, but the same could be said for the DCUC forums. There's a few people talking about them, but not like it used to be it seems. Maybe it is collector fatigue, maybe we just don't have as much time to sit on forums all day, or maybe we've just moved on - but in some ways it does seem like collector interest has gone down a bit from the levels it used to see. There also seems to be more negativity about things, but I guess that is always there with the internet. It just seems like some of the things that we saw, for example, at Toy Fair would have been a really "big deal" 5-10 years ago (figure quality, vintage packaging, Fett mail away, new AT-AT, etc.), but now the forums sometimes seemed mixed in their reactions. Anyways, too long of a post, and I don't mean to sound negative at all. I know there are a ton of people that still really enjoy the hobby, and even then we don't have to like everything that Hasbro puts out. I'm hoping that the vintage line at least will renew collector's interest. I'm curious if anyone who has left the "Hasbro" game over the past few years is tempted to come back at all for the Vintage Collection (even just the OT figures? since some don't like the PT on these cards).

I think there's some dwindling interest in some regards. Some of that may have to do with many collectors having more responsibilities these days - such as kids of their own, house payments, etc. Plus the lack of space to display so much now. Price increases don't help either. It's all caused me to cut back some. But overall, my biggest curb in enthusiasm the past year has to do with Hasbro's shoddy distribution. And it's not like they have great case assortments online these days either. I won't shell out $100 for a case of figures that only has a handful of figures that I want along with 6 or so repacks.

Some of that may have to do with many collectors having more responsibilities these days - such as kids of their own, house payments, etc.

This is probably the case for me with forum participation. I don't post nearly as much as I used to, but I don't feel any different about the hobby. I still enjoy reading people's thoughts on the upoming and current releases, but catching up on all of the posts during the day usually takes 30-45 minutes. By that time I'm ready to move on to something else, like studying, work, etc.

None of those apply to me. I'm just finding I don't give a crap anymore about what Hasbro has to offer. The biggest part is distribution it seems. I know I'm not going to see anything where I am but for the Clone Wars stuff. Great cartoon, don't need a whole new subline to collect. No Legacy but for Legends, don't care. No announcements of plans going forward so I'm out for the most part. At least with respect to the Canadian market, Hasbro intentionally or unintentionally said to me as a collector that they don't want my money. S'ok with me.

I'm losing even more interest lately due to the extreme lack of anything in the stores that is targeted at me. I'm sick of seeing only Clone Wars and Legends, with the occasional Legacy figure. The lull in collecting isn't making me look more forward to the vintage line either - if anything, it's just making me bored with Hasbro.

Dude, I hear you! The only things keeping me engaged are my collection room and my customs. I have been adding to my collection room shelves, more figures & new shelf paper backdrops among other things. (I will have updated collection pics soon!) I am also making a custom Jabba Throne room display, I am really into to it and is going to be awesome.

Once I am finished that I really will want to add some new figures and vehicles. I have reserved space for the Snowspeeder, CC and AT-AT. The lack of new product is taking it's toll. Rumor boards are literally pathetic as all you see is mini skirmishes on irrelevant details. (referring to RS) You can see the lack of interest in fan forums and even eBay as all SW prices have dropped like no tomorrow. They do more harm by having such long droughts. All their energy is clearly in IM2 right now. Even Joe is suffering as they are just clearing the remaining ROC inventory. This is not good for the long term as they have run this formula steady for the last three years and in the time we have seen the greatest decline. There is no denying this in my opinion counts for at least 50% of the overall problem.

So what's next TF2 packs, last of the comic packs and the EU wave. The majority of that is redecoed stuff and stuff we have known about for a very long time it's like we already have it. Sad, very sad.

Yeah, we've discussed it before on here, but this whole "drought" strategy that has been working itself out over the past three years really seems to be hurting the line. I can see why people are losing interest when there isn't anything on the pegs for them anyways. I've been trying to keep up with the "collector's challenge" again this year, and keeping close track of my spending, and I've bought virtually nothing Star Wars-wise for 2010. Heck, I've bought more Iron Man figures than Star Wars figures. I'll continue to pick up a few CW figures here and there, but there's a part of me that thinks I should slow that down as those are really for "today's Star Wars fans" more than us. I really like the show, and enjoy the line (I think its a great line for kids especially), but I'm more into the movie stuff like many of us on here are. I'll likely continue to grab some here and there, especially since that is virtually all there will be until late July for Star Wars.

Like it was mentioned, there is some exclusive stuff trickling out, but so much of that has been known about for so long, it does seem like old news - and I'm not even sure how much of it I'm going to try to track down. I'd like to get the TRU exclusive wave, or at least some of it, but I'm not going to go crazy trying to track it down either. I'm definitely looking forward to the vintage line in the fall though, and I'll likely be buying most to all of that (and maybe - yikes - a carded set, at least of the OT ones). That being said though, I'm still wondering that unless we see a movie re-release (or blu ray, etc.), we might just see this vintage line run for 2-3 years and they may wrap the realistic stuff up - at least until the live action tv stuff starts up. It is tough to say, but the focus for toy lines these days (action figures in particular) is stuff with "current entertainment" to support it. We're fortunate in many ways to have the Star Wars line for as long as we have. Looking at virtually every other line, they are almost all lines with current movies and/or cartoon shows. Even GI Joe is pretty much all movie based, or an offshoot, at this point.

You can see the lack of interest in fan forums and even eBay as all SW prices have dropped like no tomorrow. They do more harm by having such long droughts.

That's interesting, I am an avid eBayer and I have noticed just the opposite with the vintage auctions. Those prices have really skyrocketed since the end of last year. Maybe collectors are using the lull to fill in gaps with their older stuff?

I don't have a problem with $100 for a Blue Snags, but $60+ for a lousy A-Wing pilot?!?! That is discouraging.

You can see the lack of interest in fan forums and even eBay as all SW prices have dropped like no tomorrow. They do more harm by having such long droughts.

That's interesting, I am an avid eBayer and I have noticed just the opposite with the vintage auctions. Those prices have really skyrocketed since the end of last year. Maybe collectors are using the lull to fill in gaps with their older stuff?

I don't have a problem with $100 for a Blue Snags, but $60+ for a lousy A-Wing pilot?!?! That is discouraging.

It is. I have sold SW items every week on eBay for 4 years straight, I am just shy of 2000 FB, a Power Seller and also a Top Rated Seller. SW modern items have dropped in price dramatically, especially large figure lots. While I do not deal with vintage anymore I can speak for the modern era stuff. I have seen a dramatic decline in pricing & demand. It's a good time to catch up on past items if you missed them, but not the best time to sell. Like many other things there are economic factors involved as well but the lack of interest and engagement have taken a toll across the board from collectors to sellers.

Lackluster economy probably has a big bearing on ebay selling like you said.

For sure, but I really have seen the drop in collector interest effect also take a toll. Your typical eBay SW buyer is more collector focused and like the rest of us if there is not "wood" for the fire it takes a backseat interest wise and keeps on moving back the less that comes our way.

Not that I doubt there's some dropped interest (which I mostly blame on Hasbro), but I seem to recall hearing that all of ebay has seen a decline in sales the past couple years. I also see more and more people selling their collections because of losing their job, etc.

I wouldn't doubt that Ebay in general is losing a lot of membership because of their increasingly asinine policies... or so I hear/read from others anyway. It seems like Ebay's steadily made it more difficult to sell, and less financially motivating as well.

From the few searches I've done lately on Ebay I've noticed how a lot of auctions are dominated by "Buy it Now" sellers with frankly unrealistic expectations. I don't know whether that's a reflection of the auctions I'm looking at, a change of selling style by sellers, or whether the auction sellers have left the site because of policy changes (like JJ mentioned).

From the few searches I've done lately on Ebay I've noticed how a lot of auctions are dominated by "Buy it Now" sellers with frankly unrealistic expectations. I don't know whether that's a reflection of the auctions I'm looking at, a change of selling style by sellers, or whether the auction sellers have left the site because of policy changes (like JJ mentioned).

"Wildly unrealistic expectations" is how I would describe it. I agree 100% - this is just lazy and greedy, IMO. Do some research and see what stuff is actually selling for before slapping some insane price tag on your auction.

I wish I could post some examples here but eBay is blocked for me at work.

One of the most irritating things for me on the retail landscape right now is the low quantities of new stuff stores are ordering. They get a case of new stuff, it sells out quickly, and then nothing. I think if they ordered larger quantities of new stuff and put it all out on the shelves at once they would have more sales and less junk hanging around. Target seems to have noticed this lately as I have seen more multi-case displays for the new TCW stuff (well, Wave 2 anyway) but not so much Walmart. TRU is just bizarre. They get a new case of figures here and once that sells it takes MONTHS to restock the same wave.

They need to understand there is a limited window of collector interest. This is why most of the DVD's in stores are new stuff, not old titles. Keep it fresh, and people will become regular customers. (I know it's a lot more complicated than that but this was just an idle rant)

I am personally all caught up with everything that has been released this year - I have purchased just about one of everything, if not more in regards to a select few army building type figures - so I am not really effected by anything going on at the moment.

But I will say something about Target here and their availability of the "Legacy" line. I have 2 Targets in my area. The "main" Target has been sold out of "Legacy" figures for a month now - pretty close to the same situation at the other Target (It has been less than 1 month since they have been completely sold out of all their Legacy figures - but they are sold out now).

Now, what does Target do to fix the situation, fill the pegs? No. Why, I don't know - perhaps there are no figures to be shipped in the distribution center. However, this could also be because of another issue. A common practice I see at Target is for the employees just to make sure that every peg is filled. When there is a empty peg they scan it and check the warehouse to see if there is any product in the back to fill it - when there isn't they just "flex" it out because they don't want to make management angry at the end of the night during the dept walkthru. So, in response, every time I go into Target now, I make it a habit to just stop and take a second if I have the time and put SW product on their appropriate pegs to clean it up a bit, and hope that someone will continue to take notice of the missing product and address the issue.

I guess another reason I am doing this is in part to help the line. Hasbro says "Legacy" figures aren't selling well - I disagree. Get the product out there and it will sell.

Hasbro says "Legacy" figures aren't selling well - I disagree. Get the product out there and it will sell.

Agreed 200%. They have really disgusted me with that sentiment over the past six months.

I agree as well. I would have purchased much more in the last year than I actually did but there's quite a bit I never saw at retail. I would have even purchased some items I didn't want just to get the BAD part (btw....if anyone has a right leg and left arm of a YVH BAD they don't need, please PM me). I would also have purchased mltiples of the Katarn/Vong and Luke Lumiya comic packs if I ever saw them in a store.

What is Hasbro supposed to do if the retailers ain't buyin' the stuff? There's a reason why the value packs have hit the market. It's not like Hasbro didn't make enough and offer enough to the retailers.

What is Hasbro supposed to do if the retailers ain't buyin' the stuff? There's a reason why the value packs have hit the market. It's not like Hasbro didn't make enough and offer enough to the retailers.

Well, their supposed to sell the idea of the Legacy line better to the Big Box store buyers.

While it seems counterintuitive to us, it really seems like Hasbro has been selling the notion of the Animated line and the Legends line, and not so much the Legacy line.

They (Hasbro and stores) want to sell Animated because it's the "hot" "new" thing out there. Legends I'm fairly certain is being billed as a cheaper line for stores to buy (Maybe Adam can fill us in on that) therefore more profit for stores. Likewise, Hasbro's profit margin is more on Legends since there is virtually no R&D into figures, since they are all old molds. So it stands to reason the Hasbro would want to promote the "hot" line and the line that gives them the greatest profit margin.

Unfortunately that means the Legacy/Vintage/Realistic line gets the shaft when it comes to sales. Less was made because less was ordered from stores. So Hasbro twists this around and states that there are less sales. It's only less sales because there is less of this specific product out there.

I'm am willing to bet my left nut that if we compared percentages of Animated to Legends to Legacy, the greatest percentage of sales in terms of what's moving on the pegs and what's being left behind, would go to Legacy.

What I mean is it is very difficult to find Legacy figures, while Legends abound, followed by Animated.

We know it, and Hasbro knows it too. But again, stores want the "hot" product and Hasbro is pushing the "cheaper" product for higher margin.

Until/unless this way of thinking changes, the SW line in general is going to persist like this to the point where we'll be lucky if we even have a realistic line in a few years that are NEW figures (with Legends taking over). If/when that day comes, I'll definitely be done with collecting SW figures.

I don't think it's a retailer "cost" issue so much as it is a Hasbro investment issue.

The "collector assortments" used to be 2-4 new figures per wave and the rest were repacks, sometimes doubling up on the new guys. Now it's 6-8 new figures per wave with 4-6 repacks. So their investment to bring that case of Legacy to you is way up, because of articulation and the more new figures they think they have to do because of build-a-droid.

Meanwhile, Saga Legends is 100% existing tooling-- and they haven't even introduced a new OLD figure into the mix in ages. How many new ones were trotted out since the orange packaging changeover? 3 tops? (Mynock Han, Mynock Chewie, Pilot Obi-Wan?) This SKU is gravy for them, but lumpy gravy. There's money left on the table with a lack of Stormtroopers, probably not enough Darth Vaders, not enough Clone army builders, and so on. Some Legends figures really do sell, and we're not seeing a bunch of them. Still-- it's basically free money at this point, just maintaining the tooling and the cost of raw materials/labor/freight. There's certainly no significant development taking place specifically for this assortment.

And Clone Wars? Each case is at least half old stuff. And even though the new figures in 2009/2010 only seem to ship for a single wave, the kid-driven figures don't seem to stop shipping. As far as dollars in against dollars out, Legacy looks to be the clear loser here despite seemingly moving a really good number of units. (And this is largely armchair quarterbacking. I can't see Hasbro's balance sheets from here.) Hasbro can and frequently does cancel products that sell because of unmet expectations from their investors/bosses/Wal-masters/whatever.

Yeah, that makes sense. Kind of falls in line with how I view it - Hasbro's profit margin on the Legacy stuff probably doesn't touch the other two lines in terms of percentage per figure. That's my theory at least. Hasbro's a business looking to maximize the bang for their buck - not that I blame them for that - but their reasoning to collectors leaves a lot to be desired. Seems like they're not all that honest with us these days on this subject.

As far as dollars in against dollars out, Legacy looks to be the clear loser here despite seemingly moving a really good number of units. (And this is largely armchair quarterbacking. I can't see Hasbro's balance sheets from here.) Hasbro can and frequently does cancel products that sell because of unmet expectations from their investors/bosses/Wal-masters/whatever.

Maybe I'm not conveying my thoughts right on this then.

What Im saying is something on this order (as an example since I too can't see Hasbro's info):

My guess based on what I see left on shelves is that Legacy figures sell out almost all of the time, meaning darn near 100,000 figures sold. So essentially 100% of the figures are sold or at least very high 90s percentile range.

Animated seems to sell at about 80-90%. So the range of figures sold on that 500K is about 400-450K. Yes more than Legacy but not in percentage of figures sold. Legends is worse as I see those figures dragging for weeks on end.

So using that ever so basic math, wouldn't it make sense to sell figures that are selling out or at a much greater percentage than the other two facets of the line?

Legends may have a higher profit margin per figure for Hasbro, but if the figures are staying stagnant or not moving as quickly how can that benefit the retailors and consumers? No new product for Legacy because we have a heck of a time finding it makes it harder to stick with the line. Seeing rehashed stuff we don't want or certainly not for more than what we paid for the figure when it initially came out (and again that clone weapons locker in no means makes up the difference) isn't going to make us buy it.

I'm just saying Hasbro needs to scale back Legends in favor of more Legacy/Vintage/Realistic NEW/Severly upgraded figures.

Eventually the Legends figures not selling as quickly is going to catch up with Hasbro. And no doubts we collectors will get the blame when all along we've been telling them to lighten up on the Legends line.

Eventually the Legends figures not selling as quickly is going to catch up with Hasbro.

it already has. they have a current promo right now, yes it is more kiddie-intended, but when you buy a role play toy - basically anyof them that have an MSRP $19.99+, you get 3 free Saga Legends figures - and you don't even have to pay shipping to get them!

One could argue that it is a way to "hook" kiddies that only like the role play stuff into buying more action figures, and I would say that is a strong argument that probably has some merit, but I honestly think this was a way for Hasbro to unload some of these figures. I mailed in for min last week after I bought the Clone Commander Blaster - and my half serious prediction of the figures I would be receiving was "Saese, Plo, and... Saese". I honestly think I will be getting the first two - perhaps the third will be Obi or Mynock Han. One thing is for certain, I will be completely knocked off my rocker if I get one clone or any "trooper" other than a SBD.

And in regards to your statement

Quote

So using that ever so basic math, wouldn't it make sense to sell figures that are selling out or at a much greater percentage than the other two facets of the line?

.

Hypothetical numbers here - if it costs Hasbro $0.50 to make a CW line figure and sold them for the upcoming MSRP of $6.99 - then that nets them $5.49 in profits to divy out between them and retail. $5.49 * 450,000 units sold, like in your example, nets them an insane number of profits $2470500. For clarification purposes here I know they are not making that much per figure, and perhaps it costs more to manufacture, I am just using numbers.

I believe Legends would follow a similar example to the above - I just still don't think they have number that they should be producing down enough - but they still make great profit off of them.

If it costs Hasbro $1.00 to make a Vintage line figure - higher costs due to articulation, brand new tooling, likeness rights, lower production runs, etc. and sold them for the upcoming MSRP of $7.99 - then that nets them $6.99 in profits. $6.99 * 90,000 units sold, again using your numbers, nets them $629000 - roughly 1/4th of what was made under the CW line.

Again those numbers were wayyyyy off interms of reality - but I think that is what hasbro is looking at

You know, I've chimed in on this thread and I've had a pretty heated discussion on this topic on another site as well and this still is a topic that seems to be on my mind a lot lately. Having bought enough figures in the Legacy line to have double (and in some cases triple) built every one of the Build-A-Droids, plus having a complete set of all Blue/White and Red/White figures in my MOC collection - I seem to take it personally everytime that they blame collectors for a lack of sales in their Q&A answers.

So instead of complaining about case pack ratios or production numbers or the Legends line (all of which I feel are to blame to a degree), I'm going to throw out a new discussion point and dig up a REALLY old argument...

Would we be even having these discussions if they had decided to make Clone Wars figures in the "realistic" style instead of trying to release figures that more closely match the 3D animation?

I know this is a mute point now since we've had almost two years of the animated style figures, but bare with me for a moment...

POINT 1: We already have had the precedent set where the 2D Animated Clone Wars designs were taken and translated to the realistic line - Yoda w/Kybuck, Roron Corobb, CloneTrooper Armor Obi-Wan, Quarren Warrior, Mon Calamari Warrior, Lancer Droid, Snowbunny Padme, Chameleon Droids, Saesee Tiin in Clone armor, Nelvaan Tattoo Anakin, Voolvif Monn, ScubaTrooper, Quad-Gun Trooper, ARC Trooper, Ventress, etc.... So it's not like it would have been the end of the world if figures like Rex, Ashoka, Yularen, ARF Troopers, etc... were done in the realistic style.

POINT 2: If Clone Wars figures had been made in the realistic style, there would have been a greater ability on Hasbro's part to reuse parts from a much deeper catalog of parts. I think regardless of what Hasbro says, they are putting most of their sculpting resources into building out the library of animated figure parts - that effort instead could have been spent on developing parts for the realistic line, benefitting figures based on all SW media.

POINT 3: But what about the kids? They want to buy figures that match the media! Well, if that's the case, then why would kids even buy Legends figures? The truth is that the kiddies really don't care whether Anakin looks exactly like the cartoon or not. When we were kids did we care that Bespin Luke didn't look exactly like Mark Hamill? Of course we didn't, we enjoyed them because they were Star Wars figures. Kids today are no different. If a kid still wants action figures the only thing they want them for is to play with them and if Anakin and Ashoka were done in a realistic style but still true to the costumes of the cartoon, that would still be perfectly fine. Getting back to Legends - if kids only want what's in the media, then why would they even glance over at Legends figures? So either kids don't care about mixing animated and realistic stuff which means they don't care about the style of the figures or kids aren't interested in Legends and therefore are only buying the animated stuff. It really can't be both no matter how many times Hasbro might say it is.

POINT 4: There are supposed to be four or five seasons of the Clone Wars cartoon - five makes more sense based on the plans to make about 100 episodes of the show. That means the last season will end sometime in 2013 - five years before the end of the license. Who here doubts that between 2013 and 2018 we'll get realistic versions of Ashoka, Rex, CW Armor Anakin, CW Armor Obi-Wan and any other major CW characters that shake out between now and the end of the series? When the cartoon ends and all that is left is the live-action series on HBO and the kiddies are all gone, I'm sure that we'll get realistic versions of them and at that point, the animated line will have been deemed pretty pointless.

I would be curious to see what everyone else thinks, but I think that if the Clone Wars figures were mixed in with figures based on the movies, I think we wouldn't be having the problems we're having now. Sure some obscure characters like Yarna or Breha Organa might not have been made, but at least kids and collectors would be spending $$ in support of a single line.

Lucasfilm demanded the CW3D figures be a mix of animated/realistic styling. Not 100% accurate to the 3D models always, but not realistic either. There was a nice picture from, I think a Q&A that showed the 3 distinctly different sculpts of an Anakin that Hasbro showed to LFL and LFL went with the hybrid as their choice and shot down realistic.

I think Hasbro even argued for realistic, actually.

I don't know if we'd have a problem or not if it were a different more realistic look to the line. I think if it were kept separate still though, and the numbers weren't jumbled, there'd still be higher sales among the current media-supporeted toyline compared to the movie stuff.

It was pretty much the same way during movie years for the past 10 years where the movie's line dominated sales and OT stuff lagged. That's really to be expected of course, but I think it's been the same with Clone Wars, and if things were all realistic I think as long as the numbers could be discerned from one another, it'd still be the same basic trend. The current media has the highest sales.

You know, I've chimed in on this thread and I've had a pretty heated discussion on this topic on another site as well and this still is a topic that seems to be on my mind a lot lately. Having bought enough figures in the Legacy line to have double (and in some cases triple) built every one of the Build-A-Droids, plus having a complete set of all Blue/White and Red/White figures in my MOC collection - I seem to take it personally everytime that they blame collectors for a lack of sales in their Q&A answers.

When Hasbro talks about the declining sales numbers from the collector market, they're not talking about you Pete. They're talking about the people who dropped out because of whatever circumstances.

Financial, personal and family reasons have driven plenty of people out of the hobby in the past 2 years or so. People who have experienced economic hardships or lost their jobs and need to be able to pay the bills. So what goes when people need to make some hard economic decisions? Items that are bought with disposable income. When it comes to adult collectors that can translate to toys.

Those of us who are still here have fortunately been able to hang in during the tough times. But are most of us still spending at the levels that we might have been in 2005 or 2006? I know that I'm not.

Also, movie year pricing isn't an option for Hasbro or the retailers. The volume sales aren't there. Entertainment support means a great deal to the Star Wars line or any other toy line. That is precisely why Clone Wars is selling better than Legacy. And given the fact that Clone Wars has been selling in it's animated form since the summer of 2008 I can't see Hasbro or Lucasfilm licensing deciding to make the Clone Wars line look photo realistic.

Lucasfilm demanded the CW3D figures be a mix of animated/realistic styling. Not 100% accurate to the 3D models always, but not realistic either. There was a nice picture from, I think a Q&A that showed the 3 distinctly different sculpts of an Anakin that Hasbro showed to LFL and LFL went with the hybrid as their choice and shot down realistic.

I think Hasbro even argued for realistic, actually.

I don't know if we'd have a problem or not if it were a different more realistic look to the line. I think if it were kept separate still though, and the numbers weren't jumbled, there'd still be higher sales among the current media-supporeted toyline compared to the movie stuff.

It was pretty much the same way during movie years for the past 10 years where the movie's line dominated sales and OT stuff lagged. That's really to be expected of course, but I think it's been the same with Clone Wars, and if things were all realistic I think as long as the numbers could be discerned from one another, it'd still be the same basic trend. The current media has the highest sales.

Back in 2002 coming out of the Power of the Jedi line, there wasn't a dedicated "Attack of the Clones" line - there was Star Wars: Saga and sure, for the first year, most of the figures were from Attack of the Clones, but as the first year ended and we moved into the second year of that packaging design, we started to get figures mixed in from the other four movies that were out.

In 2005 when ROTS hit, the line for an entire year was 100% dedicated to that movie.

If the Clone Wars figures had been released in a realistic style, back in August 2008 the line could have gone for a year with only releasing Clone Wars related figures and the figures from the six movies could have taken a break and I don't think anyone would have minded. With realistic Clone Wars figures no one would have been running around freaking out that the realistic line was "done".

Stopping realistic figures entirely for a year to focus on the new media wasn't an option with those figures being done in a non-realistic style.

So there is actually a huge difference between the two. Collectors who have passed on the Clone Wars line due to the figure style wouldn't be passing on the Clone Wars line since it would be in line with all of the rest of the figures they already have.

Didn't Hasbro sort of attempt that back in 2003 with the Clone Wars line? The ships were cool but I thought the character renditions were horrible. Durge in particular was a trainwreck compared to the Tartakovsky inspired version. I don't think they sold all that well either as my recollection is that this line was pretty short-lived.

It's a novel concept, but also my worst nightmare, frankly. I would definitely lose all interest in the TCW offerings if they went "realistic". I just don't think you can render animated characters well in a realistic style. It's true kids might buy them no matter what, but I think the animated style is sort of unique and holds its own offbeat appeal.

I do think you'll see the positive impact you are looking for when the live action show arrives. Those will likely inspire a whole new line in the realistic style, and likely help boost the associated realistic lines as well.

The interesting thing about the live action series? According to IMDB and some recent reports the live action series could debut as early as the 2011/12 television series. That in itself is interesting. A live action series that debuts in 18 months might be a boon to the line. And it could revitalize interest in the Expanded Universe, too.

Ultimately though, we have to wait and see what happens. There's a serious possibility that the vintage style packaging could be strong enough to bring some people back into the fold. But we'll also have to wait and see if the economy rebound and gives collectors a little more breathing room with their personal finances.

Didn't Hasbro sort of attempt that back in 2003 with the Clone Wars line? The ships were cool but I thought the character renditions were horrible. Durge in particular was a trainwreck compared to the Tartakovsky inspired version. I don't think they sold all that well either as my recollection is that this line was pretty short-lived.

It's a novel concept, but also my worst nightmare, frankly. I would definitely lose all interest in the TCW offerings if they went "realistic". I just don't think you can render animated characters well in a realistic style. It's true kids might buy them no matter what, but I think the animated style is sort of unique and holds its own offbeat appeal.

I do think you'll see the positive impact you are looking for when the live action show arrives. Those will likely inspire a whole new line in the realistic style, and likely help boost the associated realistic lines as well.

I haven't been following this conversation all that much - but are you saying that the realistic Clone Wars figures bombed? I seem to recall most of them doing pretty good, but the animated ones having more problems. A lot of those hit clearance in quantity.

Anyways, I'm thinking the live action series is going to give the overall line a huge boost, and I'm just riding out this whole Clone Wars thing until then. I don't really care for the animated figures at all to be honest and have bought very few of them.

Back in 2002 coming out of the Power of the Jedi line, there wasn't a dedicated "Attack of the Clones" line - there was Star Wars: Saga and sure, for the first year, most of the figures were from Attack of the Clones, but as the first year ended and we moved into the second year of that packaging design, we started to get figures mixed in from the other four movies that were out.

In 2005 when ROTS hit, the line for an entire year was 100% dedicated to that movie.

If the Clone Wars figures had been released in a realistic style, back in August 2008 the line could have gone for a year with only releasing Clone Wars related figures and the figures from the six movies could have taken a break and I don't think anyone would have minded. With realistic Clone Wars figures no one would have been running around freaking out that the realistic line was "done".

Stopping realistic figures entirely for a year to focus on the new media wasn't an option with those figures being done in a non-realistic style.

So there is actually a huge difference between the two. Collectors who have passed on the Clone Wars line due to the figure style wouldn't be passing on the Clone Wars line since it would be in line with all of the rest of the figures they already have.

I wouldn't say there's a "Huge difference" between the two Pete, but I would say that there are some differences... However, 2002's line didn't perform up to snuff by most accounts either, and that's why 2005's saw significant changes too... so it's a little tough to use it as a gauge in the analogy itself.

Also, there's a pretty big difference in movies and an animated TV series too.

I don't personally think sales of realistic figures would've been less than the animated figures. I do believe though that the current/ongoing media support tends to generate the most interest though. So with that in mind, and with the thought in mind that Clone Wars runs longer than a film's life in the limelight, I think Clone Wars would still be outselling the movie figures, and as such Hasbro would be doing other things people find annoying.

For instance repacking CW stuff as they do now, they'd be doing it in the realistic line under its sku in this hypothetical situation, and people would now be complaining the mantra, "I can't find (Insert random adult-collector-targeted-figure here) because of all these Ahsoka's, Anakin's and Obi-Wan's!", or something along those lines.

And likewise if the SKU's were separated between a realistic everything else line, and realistic Clone Wars line, then I still think it possible Clone Wars would be outselling that "Legacy" line in the hypothetical, and retailers would respond in-kind.

I don't know though, it just seems to me that things wouldn't be too much different, except that guys like me would be more actively looking for Clone Wars figures, as well as the regular film and EU figures.

All that said though, it still boils down to this is what Lucasfilm wanted of course, not Hasbro's decision at all... I'm not so sure on Hasbro's part how much they "fought" for a realistic line, but I got the impression they at least strongly considered going that route but Lucasfilm didn't want it. *shrug* The realistic Anakin looked insanely cool, and since a lot of the CW3D characters are based on actors and things that actually exist, I think its translation to realistic sculpting is evident... Obi-Wan looks like Ewan McGregor, Anakin like Hayden Christensen, and so on... just in their CW outfits.

Personally I agree on the point about people avoiding the animated because they're avoiding animated style only though... I'm in that group as I noted. I tend not to buy animated figures because I consider it a wholely separate line, so I don't feel my collection's missing something without it. I do, however, like the thought of realistic styled versions of these characters. I like your optomism on them getting done realistically too, but you never know.

I like to think what you're suggesting is how it would be, I just don't know if it would be based on past trends in the line. You're right though, there's plenty of differences in the movie lines and the CW3D line, but some of the differences work in favor of the animated style idea though as well.

I haven't been following this conversation all that much - but are you saying that the realistic Clone Wars figures bombed? I seem to recall most of them doing pretty good, but the animated ones having more problems. A lot of those hit clearance in quantity.

Just my impression really, not based on any hard data. I've looked through those 2003 offerings though and they are pretty limited, IE: not a huge # of figures, vehicles, etc. I assume if they had strong sales Hasbro would have had a more robust assortment of swag.

By contrast, I could never find the first incarnation of animated figures at retail, although admittedly I was pretty clueless about tracking stuff down back then. I had to get nearly all of them on eBay.

Really I was just sort of making the point that it seemed like they tried going down the realistic/animated route before, and for whatever reason decided to go in a different direction. (Thankfully, IMHO)

I still am buying the way I have been for most of my colletcing life so the total I buy is the same, but with the stores being so dry what I find is I'm not as excited about Star Wars toys in between buys. So instead of thinking Star Wars all the time, I'm concentrating on something else I collect that I can actually find to buy on a relatively frequent basis.

I feel like over a long enough period of time I could say, " whatever, I'm not gonna hunt, I'll just buy when I'm in a store anyway if I see". So the down time in the middle could lower my interest in the long run if that makes sense.

What is Hasbro supposed to do if the retailers ain't buyin' the stuff?

Why would a retailer buy product if Hasbro ships them yet another case of the first wave of Legacy? A brand new case of Legacy figures popped up at my local Walmart in December. Yarna was on the front of the pegs. If I was the retailer and that's what Hasbro sent me I'd them them to F. off as well. It's not a chicken and egg argument here, Hasbro, at least in Canada, has routinely made the retailers bend over and take it from behind by sending craptastic waves to the retailer leaving them with useless, non-moving stock on the pegs.

I haven't been following this conversation all that much - but are you saying that the realistic Clone Wars figures bombed? I seem to recall most of them doing pretty good, but the animated ones having more problems. A lot of those hit clearance in quantity.

Just my impression really, not based on any hard data. I've looked through those 2003 offerings though and they are pretty limited, IE: not a huge # of figures, vehicles, etc. I assume if they had strong sales Hasbro would have had a more robust assortment of swag.

I think part of it was timing on Hasbro's part - it was a short lived line, but I am guessing that was their intention as the ROTS line was soon to follow.

And I don't think the CW animated stuff that is out now is a bad thing - I don't collect it, but it's clearly pretty popular. Hasbro might as well milk it while they can... as long as they don't forget about the realistic figures too; I'm cool with it.

What is Hasbro supposed to do if the retailers ain't buyin' the stuff?

Why would a retailer buy product if Hasbro ships them yet another case of the first wave of Legacy? A brand new case of Legacy figures popped up at my local Walmart in December. Yarna was on the front of the pegs. If I was the retailer and that's what Hasbro sent me I'd them them to F. off as well. It's not a chicken and egg argument here, Hasbro, at least in Canada, has routinely made the retailers bend over and take it from behind by sending craptastic waves to the retailer leaving them with useless, non-moving stock on the pegs.

Man, that's how I have felt a lot the past year. I know the situation up there isn't pretty with figures, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much. But damn - it's so frustrating when a retailer's stock of figures finally dwindles down to where there's room for some new stuff, only to have it packed again by pegwarmers or by figures that you KNOW aren't going to be popular because Hasbro used old/outdated tooling.

I think Hasbro really did a poor job the past two years with how they handled a lot of this - some of it having to do with case ratios as well. How can the retailers be blamed for that? I don't think they can, but I guess that's debatable.

The interesting thing about the live action series? According to IMDB and some recent reports the live action series could debut as early as the 2011/12 television series. That in itself is interesting. A live action series that debuts in 18 months might be a boon to the line. And it could revitalize interest in the Expanded Universe, too.

Ultimately though, we have to wait and see what happens. There's a serious possibility that the vintage style packaging could be strong enough to bring some people back into the fold. But we'll also have to wait and see if the economy rebound and gives collectors a little more breathing room with their personal finances.

This is probably a whole seperate conversation, but that is something to think about too. If, by some miracle, the live action series does get off the ground in the next couple years - while CW3D is still going too - what would become of any movie figures? I know we have three lines (technically) at retail now, but with both CW and whatever the live action series is called having current media support, I wonder how much room there would be in the line for more movie stuff. Maybe some of the live action and movie characters will overlap, but it didn't sound like there would be a lot of "big names" from the films the last we heard about it (which has been awhile, at least officially). Something to think about.

I agree with Jesse in that even if the line was done realistically, and the SKUs were still seperate, I'm guessing CW would still be the top seller. The only advantage would be that CW would likely be even stronger because of more collectors probably buying in for the realistic styling. I don't know if the sales are as horrid as Hasbro says (although they do have the data), because like others, if we see Legacy waves hit retail at all here, they are usually gone in a matter of days. That being said, we see a lot more CW product come and go from the stores overall. Plus, I think we can see a drop in collector interest just in our forums here. We're probably a fairly good example here since we have a lot of collectors who started with the OT, stayed through the PT, and now are evaluating things with CW, etc. We've seen a lot of our bigger collectors here either quit, scale way back, or even just cut back here and there. I know I have, and I've seen a lot of others too. Prices have a lot to do with that, as well as the mountain of stuff we've all accumulated, but it is happening nonetheless.

I'm saying that there WOULD NOT be separate SKUs if the Clone Wars line was done in a realistic style. There wouldn't need to be.

It would be like during 2005 when we got Revenge of the Sith figures and that's it. There wouldn't be a separate SKU for realistic figures vs. Clone Wars figures. There would be a single line - "Star Wars Saga 2008/2009/2010". Movie figures would be on hiatus or peppered into the line here and there like they were during 2002. There would still probably be a Legends line, but there wouldn't be a separate "Legacy" line from "Clone Wars".

Yeah - sure there would be collectors who would stop collecting because there was no OT product, but those same collectors were around in 2005 complaining about no OT product then too.

There wouldn't be any "hey I can't find the 'Obscure Third Guy from the Left on Bespin' figure among all of those damn Ashokas!" - there would only be Ashoka. (nevermind the fact that finding a basic Ashoka figure in the wild still seems to be a difficult prospect)

Sometimes I wonder if Hasbro is getting too many niches in their offerings... ugh.

I say just eliminate Legends - or just figure out some better figures to include in that line. Or dare I say, if the Comic Packs come back - try and include some rare figures from the past that are in high demand if they can work them in rather than blue Stormtrooper Luke and funky color Rebel Trooper. Why not get Revan, Malak, etc. into that format instead of crap repacks?

I think the niches are inevitable, given how long the line is going. The older SW gets, the more varied the age of its collectors, and consequently, their interests. Hasbro could probably go on CW alone with the kids, but they'd be giving away too much easy money from a still substantial collector base, and really, the heart and soul of the brand. So long as they're not willing to do that - and it's great they're not - the line will continue to splinter.

I agree with the splinter age interest now.I think we will see the great reset in the current line like OTC 2004. That line rereleased the most recognizable characters in the line with mostly repaint upgrades on "close to vintage style" cards (as well as the first round of Vintage) to get the kid & collector into the brand. It worked really well offering easy to recognize characters making it very easy to jump in plus it got the previous collectors interested in the brand again. If you recall that time 2003 was a limbo year for SWs.

Hasbro is going back to a proven formula that I personally think will work. If getting several resculpts and rereleases of recognizable characters helps the line survive to better days I am all for it. I have been reading some griping that there is not enough never before done characters. While there is a lot of dudes I want to see it really is scraping the sides of the barrel at this point in time. (Mind I did not say the bottom but we are getting damn close). To be truly honest I was not happy with the 2007 Bespin Luke so I am very glad to see him close to perfection now, it was always my favorite Luke costume. Denger needed the articulation upgrade and Hoth Leia was truly in need of a defining figure after a decade of waiting. While I really wanted Han Bespin the new Han is good enough to make the cut. I hope that Han Bespin will not use the bulky torso or that short hair head this one has so waiting on him may be worth it.

All in all as long as the price holds at $8 or less this line should revive the brand to a more comfortable level. It may not be 2006 again but it will surely not be the doom and gloom that seems to plague us in so many aspects. Even if things do not go as planned the line would shrink to a smaller offering with less new for awhile. There is too much money that would left on the table as Darby pointed out.

What I'm getting at with the niche thing is when Hasbro's managing three "niche" lines at once, it seems as though they have a much more difficult time handling distribution. I don't remember there being this sort of problem in 2005, 2006 or 2007 - or at least not to this degree. Maybe the further away they from the last movie, this is inevitable.

If they can get a handle on it better this Fall though, more power to them. But something tells me they aren't going to. I'll keep my fingers crossed of course, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I agree Legends is the variable. Distribution here (Iowa) doesn't seem to have the same issues others report. I never really have an issue finding anything. The last AOTC wave on the blue card never made it to most stores, but sits in bulk at Kohl's. I'd prefer if Hasbro did away with Legends and focused the core characters in the CW and Vintage lines. They do this anyway (the bulk of every CW case are repacks), so I wonder how many more of these they really need.

I say just eliminate Legends - or just figure out some better figures to include in that line.

Yeah, the real problem with Legends was when they decided to go "kid only" with that line. Back when Legends was a 50/50 mix of kid/collector, it wasn't nearly as bad. It would be nice if they could pull some of those Plos and Saesees from the Legends line and replace them with collector-targeted figures.

The only thing I think I am not liking about the line going to mostly redo's is that I am guessing "all new" Jabba goons are going to be few and far between. I am pretty sure Hasbro said in a semi-recent QnA that Fozec is all tooled up, or something to that extent, I would love to see him at some point in the near future.

I'm fine with most of the proposed improved sculpts or "redos". Also, I would think there is still a segment of collectors out there that'll be attracted to the Vintage line that might not have been collecting since the '95 neo-classic era. So, some of these offerings, despite being redos for "us", might be a first time pick up for them.

I say just eliminate Legends - or just figure out some better figures to include in that line.

Yeah, the real problem with Legends was when they decided to go "kid only" with that line. Back when Legends was a 50/50 mix of kid/collector, it wasn't nearly as bad. It would be nice if they could pull some of those Plos and Saesees from the Legends line and replace them with collector-targeted figures.

If they started packing in collector-desired army builders and some new repaints like they did circa Legends 2007/early'08, I think there would be a lot less people out there angry with the line. ;)

I agree with that sentiment. It might not be the actual line itself that is the problem, but rather the figures selected in it. Hasbro's love affair with those two repacked Jedi seems to have created a much bigger issue than Yarna ever did.

All of the above army builders you mentioned would be excellent substitutes instead... I'd like like to add perhaps to that mix even the new Gungan Warrior or the good Destroyer Droid... Darth Revan and Malak seem like obvious choices too. Or even Vader. I barely ever saw him pegwarming in this line the past two years.

I'm in favor of the animated style sculpts for the Clone Wars figures. I have enough Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan figures, I don't need to see more of them with the cartoon outfit but with Ewan or Hayden's faces on them. I think they should look like the animation that we see every week. Besides the heroes, it makes more sense, at least to me, to see a character like Hondo or Cad Bane as they appeared in the show and not how they would appear in a live action film.

The 2003 realistic line of CW figures did pretty well, the ARC Trooper and Clone especially did well, but they all sold steadily. The animated figures based on the micro series art did okay, but there were some clearance aisle finds. Don't forget that the animation to back them up was done in 3 minute segments for a couple weeks and then came back for a one week run of 12 minute episodes, not really the ongoing media backing a line needs like the current CW gets.

Having said that, I do think that the Anakin figures that Jesse mentioned actually all looked pretty good.

I know that Hasbro came out and said why the Hybrid version was used over the straight animated version, but I don't remember exactly. I think it had something to do with both aesthetics and size, the straight animated style would have meant thinner looking toys and maybe there was a perceived value issue. I do recall that it was Lucasfilm's call to go animated. Hasbro has said several times that they have no plans to bring the CW characters into the Saga lines in realistic form and I wouldn't doubt that part of that is Lucasfilm's doing.

The Legends line has caused problems in some areas but not everywhere. The line sells extremely well at both Walmart and Target here. But don't get me wrong, I have seen stores so overpacked with them that they were literally falling off the pegs and there was still overflow stacked on multiple end caps. The Super Walmart in Vestal, NY must have had over 500 Legends figures in the aisles during the Thanksgiving to Christmas shopping season. The day I stopped they had exactly 1 Legacy Collection figure that I could see.

Is there a need that the Legends line is filling? Apparently there is. Kids, collectors (army builders in particular) and parents and relatives that need an Obi-Wan or a Clone or random Jedi because he has a lightsaber. But Hasbro could definitely do more with that line. There's no reason they couldn't have run one set of 15 - 20 characters for 6 months and then swap them for six months. Rotate the Clones from 501st/Shocktrooper/AOTC to Utapau/Kashyyyk/AOTC Officers or the Jedi from Plo/Saesee to Ki-Adi/Aayla. Run those for 6 months and swap again. Keep the Battle Droids and Super BDs in there and rotate decos, and rotate through some Dooku/Asajj/Maul goodness.

The best part is that they wouldn't have to start/stop the line, only the factory would have to switch over after making X number of waves over that period of time. They'd naturally rotate through retail as sales dictated.

As I've said here (in this thread or others) and on other forums is that the Legacy line has a huge problem somewhere that I can't identify. I can't figure out who is to blame for my Walmart getting 13+ cases of the ROTJ wave while we've only gotten 1 of ESB 2 AOTC waves.

Why did my Target get 20 cases of 2008 Wave 4 Revision 2, including 5 cases from September to December 2009, when two figures from that wave, Bail & Breha, had been recalled by Hasbro? Where is the breakdown that allows that type of thing to happen? That's what needs to be fixed, the distribution to local stores. I don't know if that happens from Hasbro's end in how they manage the waves and orders or if something needs to be tweaked in the distribution centers of the various retailers.

I have to think that if Hasbro has reps hitting stores to see what's out there and how it's being stocked that this could be fixed. If those Hasbro reps aren't getting it done, then they need to be replaced or educated better. Any rep worth a **** should walk into my Target and see the 5 Breha figures, 3 Bail and 4 Stass Allie figures still on the pegs and know something is ****** up. There is no reason for blue and white Stormtrooper carded figures to still be at retail in March 2010, especially ones that were recalled last year due to them jacking up store inventory.

Switching to the vintage cardbacks this Fall could have a positive effect, much of it could be with collectors that have dropped out but have been looking for a way back in. But I think an even larger benefit will just be the fact that the line, along with CW and Legends, will have a whole new assortment number associated with it. That'll give stores the opportunity to clearance out the crap stock they have now and get a fresh start all the way up the chain from the local stores to the DC to Hasbro. That clearing of the pipes should help as much as anything else IMO.

I say just eliminate Legends - or just figure out some better figures to include in that line.

Yeah, the real problem with Legends was when they decided to go "kid only" with that line. Back when Legends was a 50/50 mix of kid/collector, it wasn't nearly as bad. It would be nice if they could pull some of those Plos and Saesees from the Legends line and replace them with collector-targeted figures.

If they started packing in collector-desired army builders and some new repaints like they did circa Legends 2007/early'08, I think there would be a lot less people out there angry with the line. ;)

This has been my feeling on the Legends line since it changed over... 2007's Legends was pretty outstanding. And it didn't have nearly the level of back-up the current format has. With the price dropping, I really wish they'd consider going back to the 50/50 format and including those desirable army builders that were either rare or just difficult to accumulate a lot of. Slip in some uncommon figures like Jedi like Revan or Malak (not a lot, just slip them in here and there), and that line would be back to being more successful.

Obviously Legends isn't going away because it's a funding tool for new stuff, but 2007 was clearly the time when Legends was actually popular with EVERYONE, and not just kids.

I mean, imagine if Hasbro took some initiative and released Hoth Troopers with a couple different heads (if they have the manufacturing ability) even? It's got one of the more universal neck pegs on it actually, so heads like the A-Wing Pilots fit it among others. Repaint their hair and things, and voila. If the logistics were right for that I'd be in army building heaven with something along those lines. Of course I'd be in heaven just buying the variant of that figure in some capacity too.

Legends is an area where Hasbro really shifted gears with it as a line to support the Clone Wars, and I think they overestimated its "need" there, and completely ignored the collecting world and how they can and will support that line also if it has something that appeals to them. 2007 was a good year top to bottom for the hobby though. Great figures in the basic line, great ones in the Legends line... Just a great year for the most part.

Yeah, the Legends line continues to be a problem. Like it has been mentioned, back in 2007, this line was pretty well done for both collectors and kids. It seems now that it is almost entirely focused on the "kid market", and I question how much of that is even necessary. Apparently, Hasbro has also said that the reason for going animated (along with Lucasfilm's insistence) was that kids wants their toys to "match the animation". If that is the case, how much are they going to care about what is in Legends? I don't doubt that kids (and gift buyers) still pick up the odd Obi-Wan, Anakin or Clone from that line, but beyond that I'm not sure how much is necessary.

Like others have mentioned, I can see that it probably helps Hasbro a lot (and fund the other lines) since it is closer to pure profit at this point. I think with better selections, it could really do well once again. Slipping in a collector target re-release here and there (in smaller numbers) would be good, and fill the majority of the line with the "ultimate" versions of the main characters and army builders from the Saga. If they aren't going to include them in the regular "vintage" line, they could put them here and cycle them in and out throughout the year. That way, kids or new collectors can always have access (sometime throughout the year) to Han, Luke, Chewie, Vader, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Maul, Grievous, etc. as well as army builders like the Clones, Stormies, Snowtroopers, Biker Scouts, etc. People will always buy up army builders, and if they made smart choices with the main characters I think it would do much better.

I say just eliminate Legends - or just figure out some better figures to include in that line.

Yeah, the real problem with Legends was when they decided to go "kid only" with that line. Back when Legends was a 50/50 mix of kid/collector, it wasn't nearly as bad. It would be nice if they could pull some of those Plos and Saesees from the Legends line and replace them with collector-targeted figures.

If they started packing in collector-desired army builders and some new repaints like they did circa Legends 2007/early'08, I think there would be a lot less people out there angry with the line. ;)

I agree with you here Jeff. Personally I feel the Legends line should either become an army building line, or if their going to continue to label it "Legends" then release those figures that would be considered legendary to the story. Saesee Tiin, not matter how good or bad the figure is, is NOT a legendary character in the SW universe. Neither is Plo Koon or Kit Fisto, and they happen to be two of my more favorite Jedi.

The term legendary needs to apply to the main heroes in this case. But that would make the line boring as there can really only be so many Luke, Leia, Han, Anakin, Obi-wan, etc. figs on the pegs at once, and then, not competing with the CW or realistic lines.

While I think most collectors would dread the overall line going to 4 sublines instead of three as it is now, I think in the case of Legendary it really needs to split to be those legendary characters and then an army building line. Call that one "Armies of Star Wars," or something on that order. That line could include both animated and realistic too.

Beyond we collectors griping though, retailors would be hard pressed to accept yet another subline of SW figures, especially when so many are lagging on the pegs today. (and Legacy is NOT one of those sublines that is).

So Hasbro really needs to rethink the Legends line.

If we make a reasonable assumption to say each wave will have 6 or 8 figures then each wave could be broken down like this:

6 figure wave:1 OT Main Hero1 PT Main Hero2 different OT Army builders2 different PT Army Builders

Again, main heroes are not secondary Jedi, cantina patrons, droids (except R2 and C-3PO of course).

Since cases come in 12 figures, just double these numbers to get the case breakdown.

8 figure wave:2 different OT Main Hero2 different PT Main Hero2 different OT Army builders2 different PT Army Builders

Since cases come in 12 figures, there can be two case breakdowns. More OT and more PT like this:More OT:2 different OT Main Hero with a double of each OT2 different PT Main Hero2 different OT Army builders with one extra each of OT army builders.2 different PT Army Builders

At least this way there would be a ton of army builders, and plenty enough of the main characters, but virtually none of the secondary characters that aren't selling well as refreshed figures.

Back to the "Armies of Star Wars" thought for a second, I still think if this line were done it would be a winner, however, one key thing should happen-PRICE REDUCTION. The whole point of this is to be able to army build these affordably. If in the past Hasbro has been able to give us multipacks of 5 figures for $25 or less, then why can't single carded figs in the Armies line be $5? In totality they use no more cardboard then a battle pack does. Since the molds for those army builders have long since been created there isn't extra cost involved there.

I really think a serious reduction in price woud also help to bring back in many collectors who have dropped or greatly reduced the amount of SW figures they collect.

I'm speaking as a "reformed" army builder here. I used to buy 20 each of many troop type figures, sometimes even 40 or 80. But that is when figures were $5 or $6 tops. I can't justify building to those levels when figures are $8+. So I resolve myself to no more than 5 or 6 of a troop figure if I decide to squad build it (as opposed to army build it). And I know I'm not the only army builder who has drastically reduced the amount of figures he's bought. But you can clearly see even on me alone Hasbro is losing hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Multiply that by many collectors and we're talking hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars that is lost to Hasbro and their retail partners.

Simple equation from above: 5 figs at the current $8 each is $4020 figures at the $5 pricepoint is $100

A $60 loss or 150% loss just due to price alone.

I would think that if stores could sell us figs at $5 they would if they were moving 2 or 3 or 4 times as quickly.

My question to that, jedi_master_sal, is why does the price deter you from spending that much less? I am not an army builder so I honestly don't understand and I am wanting to hear you out.

Why is it that the army builder in you is ok with spending $100 on 20 figures, but not ok with $96 on 12 figures?

Sure I get that it is 8 less figures than you would have bought had the price been lower - but you are only cutting down the ranks of your army by 40%

by going this route - 5 figs at the current $8 each is $40 - sure you are saving a butt load of cash, but you are also cutting down the ranks of your army by 75% of what you would have been ok with spending had the prices been lower.

I guess my point/question is, if you feel like you can spend $100 for "x" amount of army builders when the price is low, why don't you still have the $100 to spend on "x" when the price is higher?

again - i get the principles of high cost/lesser figures - I don't army build because this hobby is expensive enough... but I guess I just don't understand the drastic reduction.

I think Sal will agree with that sentiment, since I think we share the same thoughts on army building and cutting back. I've cut back dramatically and I haven't bought any Legends figure unless it was on sale (K-Mart sales, WM price cuts, etc.). I've greatly cut back in duplicate figures though for army building and customizing because it's just too much.

My threshold was $6.99. $7.50-$7.99 was my breaking point where I had to make more severe cuts, and to be totally honest I was cutting back at $6.99 in the duplicates department, so I just made that more severe when the price went up yet again.

There are some figures I'm still buying in "droves", but they're really limited to OT at this point. Scanner Techs and Hoth REbels are about it. I bought all the Yavin Hangar sets I saw as well, which weren't too many actually.

I'd have probably bought extra AT-AT Drivers, or Bespin Guards too, but I'v ereally avoided that so far because of cost. *shrugs*

That said, Legends is due for a pricedrop this year I believe. If they had things I wanted, I'd be more inclined to buy them then. I'm not so sure Legends is a line that's going to rebound immediately though with things I'm more interested in.

My threshold was $6.99. $7.50-$7.99 was my breaking point where I had to make more severe cuts, and to be totally honest I was cutting back at $6.99 in the duplicates department, so I just made that more severe when the price went up yet again.

Isn't that funny, how as little as .50 per figure can sway one so easily from going overboard with purchases?

I think my tipping point was after SAGA2 ended, I seem to recall the price on those was $6.63 at Wal-Mart - when Legacy hit the next year, the price was $7.46 or something close to that. That's when it hit me that enough was enough on the overbuying.

For me I think a lot of it is also the fact that my son was born in mid 2007. I just started realizing how silly it was for me to be spending so much on toys... priorities changed and a big one was making sure I was being smart with my finances (something I still struggle with, but I've gotten a lot better the past couple years)... I mean heck, even when Wal-Mart has done their $6.00 figure prices, I'm not rushing to buy much. I do pick up an army builder or something sometimes at that price, but not like I used to.

So for just $80 more, I used to be able to get 40 figures more in comparison, for 80 figs at $5 each rather than 40 figs at $8 each. See, I'd have spent more money, gotten more product, more toys would have moved off the shelf being replaced by more new stuff, and so on.

Isn't that funny, how as little as .50 per figure can sway one so easily from going overboard with purchases?

Chewie, with respect to your comment and touching on what Jesse posted, it's not just been the extra 50 cents, it's been the ridiculous price increase of the past few years.

I've mentioned many times here how I planned on cutting back my budget in half from 2007 each year until this year. That in part came from rising costs of figures.

I've also made the analogy of the cost of figures from the 70s and 80s (1977-1985) as opposed to today.

How is it that figures remained relatively close in price for those 8 years, yet we're paying now 3X as much? Granted articulation added to costs, but I'll point out Clone troopers as an example, since we're discussing army building. The ROTS clones #6 and #41 (remember when they were referred to like that?) were nearly SA, with the #41 being the better of the two. You could get those figures for $5 each. It was EASY to army build them. The price of those figures just a short 5 years ago was roughly twice what we paid for the vintage figures back when. So how is it in 5 years the price shoots up by another 60% when we're essentially getting the same figures. I'll point out the 501st trooper as a good example of that though there are many more.

My threshold for buying heavy amounts of troops ended at $6. I scaled back to no more than 10 figures of a troop figure then. When it hit $7, I scaled that back further to no more than 8 figures. Now that it's $8, that number is 5-6 figures. So you can see than not only am I buying less figures, but spending less money. (10figs/$60; 8figs/$56; 6figs/$48) This again is due to deciding to budget my money better, but also what I perceive as a drastic drop in value. The same sandtrooper I bought for $6 a couple of years ago is now in the Legends line for $8. Ridiculous.

Believe me, if figures were once again $5, I'd have blown my budget away. I'd have bought more figures which would have actually been more money in the long run.

When we were able to get battle packs for instance from Target for $20 for a 4 or 5 pack of figures, THAT was value. Now those battle packs are $25-30 and you're lucky if you get more than 3 figures. Hell in the case of the clone pilots you only got TWO and then the gun pod.

So it's really value that is the key here. Hasbro took value away, so I took my dollars away from them (or rather their retail partners, which in turn took product from me(us) by not ordering as much of the Legacy line. Who's to blame? Not me, I've already said I'd have bought more had the value been there. I understand prices of everything have increased, but toys are what I spend the most money on and they have increased in price from Hasbro disproportionally high in comparison to everything else I buy with any frequency.

The only thing that sums that up is Greed on the part of Hasbro. And they wonder why we collectors have stopped or cut way back...

Slightly different paint, minor changes, incremental improvements over figures I already purchased, higher costs, long cycles of no product interrupted by overwhelming flurries of new product, lack of space to display and store the decades of collecting. Those are the primary drivers behind my own drop in interest and purchases.

I saw it mentioned earler that the new Dengar was a welcome figure in the upcoming vintage-look line. I just shook my head. I bought him back in the green card day, again in the saga line I believe, and now I will have another opportunity. I can drop around $20 over time, and have 3 slightly different versions of a dreadfully boring character. He should have been a well sculpted 3 jointed figure (2 arms and neck) that never needed improving. Even that would have provided more action than the character ever showed on screen. I simply started to feel stupid buying another version, slightly different version, yet another version, etc, of so many figures. Now that is a pretty cynical rant, but it is a pretty accurate reflection of where I ended up as a Hasbro collector.

Vintage cardbacks won't be bringing me back. $5 figures would probably keep me watching the line to look for things I might like. $7-8 and I just about stop even paying attention to the Hasbro figure threads, and I sure don't bother to make a trip to the store.

I figure if 10 years from now I go back and just pick up the ones I want, no matter what aftermarket prices have done, I will be financially ahead in the game. In the mean time I am purging off some of the years of excess. It feels almost cathartic to de-clutter, and the collection is getting down to a point where I can start to enjoy what I have left. Clearing out can be as much fun as gathering more. (I was a big army builder too)

Sometimes I toy with the idea of dumping everything Hasbro except 100 figures. Which ones would I keep? Isn't 100 figures enough for a 40 year old father of 2? My carded collection is down to the OTC line, McQuarrie's, and about 8 others. That should be enough, considering they spend 99% of their time in a box under the stairs.

I look forward to the new AT-AT. ESB is my favorite, and that can be a centerpiece for a Hoth display. I'll even be getting the GH version. Other than that, I don't think I'm buying anything Hasbro this year.

My threshold was $6.99. $7.50-$7.99 was my breaking point where I had to make more severe cuts, and to be totally honest I was cutting back at $6.99 in the duplicates department, so I just made that more severe when the price went up yet again.

Isn't that funny, how as little as .50 per figure can sway one so easily from going overboard with purchases?

I think my tipping point was after SAGA2 ended, I seem to recall the price on those was $6.63 at Wal-Mart - when Legacy hit the next year, the price was $7.46 or something close to that. That's when it hit me that enough was enough on the overbuying.

I think the price increases in non-movie years are PART of the problem, but not the sole problem. Look at the other economic factors that are affecting people (jobs, higher fuel costs, general economic pressures) and I think you'll see a number of reasons why people felt the need to either cut back or drop out.

Chewie, with respect to your comment and touching on what Jesse posted, it's not just been the extra 50 cents, it's been the ridiculous price increase of the past few years.

I agree the prices hikes are tough - trust me. I bought a hell of a lot more when they were $5.00 each - not just in terms of total figures, but money spent as well.

A lot of for me at I think is psychological. For example, I was at a toy show not long ago where a dealer usually sells me loose figures for $2.50 each, or 3/$6.00. I usually end up getting 20-25 figures from him at that price. But last time, he said he couldn't go that low anymore - 2/$5.00 was his price. Which is great still, but for some reason I cut back and only got 8 figures at that price. I would have easily bought 20 or more if I could have gotten the same deal... so I wasn't even spending the same amount for less figures, I spent a lot less in fact. And that's been the case a lot for me the past few years in other situations too at retail.

My threshold was $6.99. $7.50-$7.99 was my breaking point where I had to make more severe cuts, and to be totally honest I was cutting back at $6.99 in the duplicates department, so I just made that more severe when the price went up yet again.

Isn't that funny, how as little as .50 per figure can sway one so easily from going overboard with purchases?

I think my tipping point was after SAGA2 ended, I seem to recall the price on those was $6.63 at Wal-Mart - when Legacy hit the next year, the price was $7.46 or something close to that. That's when it hit me that enough was enough on the overbuying.

I think the price increases in non-movie years are PART of the problem, but not the sole problem. Look at the other economic factors that are affecting people (jobs, higher fuel costs, general economic pressures) and I think you'll see a number of reasons why people felt the need to either cut back or drop out.

Agreed - and for me, it's economic too - mostly from a lifestyle change being a parent now... distribution also hasn't helped at other points as well.

One thing to keep in mind on price these days isn't just raw materials, it's the price of the factory space, worker's salaries have gone up in China and there are new regulations that toys have to meet after the Mattel lead paint fiasco. China isn't as cheap as it was just two years ago.

All those have to be tacked onto the price now. The other things is volume. Hasbro and the retailers could charge $5 a figure when there was a movie in theaters driving volume shoppers into the stores. That's gone in 2010. There's nowhere near the volume of toys being sold now that there was in 2005, not even I'd bet, in the Clone Wars series. That volume allowed Hasbro to recoup costs with smaller per item profit over a huge amount of toys where they now have to recoup that on a smaller production run.

I see people post all the time about how many of these figures are out there, but I'd bet that any individual new figure has well below a 100,000 initial run. Say the new Concept Snowtrooper for example. There aren't hundreds of thousands of them out there...I'd bet 50-60K maybe, maybe less. When the films were cranking Hasbro probably doubled that at least.

It's my guess that in any given area, for every collector on a forum like this there are probably at least 3-5 others that aren't on a forum. So while we here may still be collecting without much change over the last year and a half, we have no idea what those other guys are doing. We're also not counting the families and kids that cut down or stopped because they didn't have the cash or grew up or started buying Transformers or Iron Man or Yu-Gi-Oh or Twilight Saga stuff. Hasbro's counting them. While they may be blaming "us," which I still am pretty pissed about, I don't doubt that they are selling less toys than they were in 2007.

In order to stay in business and keep the SW product going for those of us still buying, that's going to impact pricing along with the other things I mentioned in my first post.

Don't for a minute think that I like paying $25 for a Battle Pack with 4 figures in it, for example. Just because I can understand how it came to be like this doesn't mean that I'm okay with it or that it hasn't stopped me from buying many things, because it has. Where 3 years ago I'd have bought at least one of just about everything, the only thing I've bought on that regular of a basis lately is figures. That will even slow down this year as we get away from the build-a-droid promo also. I won't be buying as many Vintage Collection figures as I did Legacy, and I still won't be buying Legends and probably fewer CW as we go along.

Sometimes I toy with the idea of dumping everything Hasbro except 100 figures. Which ones would I keep? Isn't 100 figures enough for a 40 year old father of 2? My carded collection is down to the OTC line, McQuarrie's, and about 8 others. That should be enough, considering they spend 99% of their time in a box under the stairs.

I have a top 100 list, too, part of the paring down I did back during the 30AC period. My "collection" stands at about 400 strong, but if/when display space for me goes crashing down (like when a 2nd or 3rd child comes along) I have ideas for what I want to do.

As far as "fixing" the Legends line, I have really hated the way it has been handled thus far, apart from the fact that they tried to value-add with the weapons lockers. I don't think we can honestly ask for the Legends to be a lower price than the other two lines, because kids won't be able to convince Mom to spend an extra dollar or two for "the same thing." Unless we go to something really radical...like, since the comic packs failed, why not use the opportunity to reimagine the legends line as a two-pack "versus" line, and line it up at the magic 9.99 pricepoint?

Just combine army builders as you wish, clones vs battle droids/SBDs, snowtroopers vs echo base troops, Endor rebels vs Biker Scouts. Then there would be the non-army builder sets that would sell just as well like Luke vs Vader, Anakin vs Obi-Wan, Han vs Boba Fett, Random Jedi vs Random Sith...they could even get cute with ideas like Sandtroopers vs Tusken Raiders, Imperial Scanning Techs vs Rebel Techs, X-Wing pilots vs TIE Pilots, or Gungans vs Droidekas on occasion. To squeeze in a Threepio or Artoo or Chewie, just throw 'em in vs "vanilla" stormtroopers (until we get that ultimate Rebel Fleet Trooper figure, then make solid cases of that pairing!)

Now theres a line-funding subset I think would work at this point and keep the payout for army-builders down!

Hasbro took value away, so I took my dollars away from them (or rather their retail partners, which in turn took product from me(us) by not ordering as much of the Legacy line. Who's to blame? Not me, I've already said I'd have bought more had the value been there...

I hope that answers your question, shmashwitdaclub.

makes perfect sense to me - thanks for the response

@Dan - I completely agree with your Dengar comments. I "collected"/played with my Star Wars toys initially as a kid during the regular vintage line. After that I didn't collect anything until I was an adult and my son was like 2.5 years old and I took him to see ROTS at the dollar theater cuz I didn't know how he would be in his first time in a theater and he loved it. Thats what got me back into collecting again. Some of you I have traded with/purchased from on this very site know that I buy everything to open and give to my son - reliving my childhood through him - he is crazy spoiled.

So, with that said - I started collecting toys for him pretty much at the start of the Saga2 line. I purchased nearly every figure for him - but as I continued collecting through the TAC and Legacy lines - I noticed I had a lot of catching up to do on figures that I have missed. I went to the aftermarket on RS.com and here to fill those gaps at some great prices for me to spend on him.

In the case of a figure, like Dengar (saga version) - there are many other examples, where I may have spent $2-3 on him taking him off someone else's hands losse/complete. I personally am not going to mind buying an "ultimate version" of him because I feel I got a pretty great deal on him initially, and, if I ever choose to unload him, I feel I can recoup most of if not all my initial investment - again, should I choose to.

Having said that, if I had spent full retail on him, $5, and I chose to unload him after having bought the new Vintage line version - I would be losing money over a couple points more of articulation - and I hate wasteful spending - I am a pretty frugal collector and try my damndest to not pay full price on stuff by saving receipts and returning stuff when things go on sale. It is a big freaking headache - but worthwhile for me so I can obtain a great collection with the funds I have available to spend.

@muftak - I LOVE your legends 2 pack ideas - I could see them being a big hit. Along with that, I LOVE a lot of the other suggestions of figures and rotation we have in this thread for the Legends line.

I really like the 2-pack idea as well. Since we first starting seeing both the comic packs and the "Order 66/Droid Factory" style sets, I often wondered why Hasbro wouldn't do something like that. You could have great army-building packs like you mentioned (RFT vs Stormie, Hoth Rebel vs Snowtrooper, Endor Rebel vs. Biker Scout, Clone vs. Battle Droid/Destroyer Droid/SBD, etc.) as well as some single packs like Han vs Boba or just 2 packs like C-3PO and R2-D2 or whatever. Like you said, price them at $9.99, and I think they would fly off the shelves (if the figure choices were good - we're talking VOTC/VTSC or in the last couple of years for the most part - no POTF2/TPM era stuff).

I figure if 10 years from now I go back and just pick up the ones I want, no matter what aftermarket prices have done, I will be financially ahead in the game. In the mean time I am purging off some of the years of excess. It feels almost cathartic to de-clutter, and the collection is getting down to a point where I can start to enjoy what I have left. Clearing out can be as much fun as gathering more. (I was a big army builder too)

Sometimes I toy with the idea of dumping everything Hasbro except 100 figures. Which ones would I keep? Isn't 100 figures enough for a 40 year old father of 2? My carded collection is down to the OTC line, McQuarrie's, and about 8 others. That should be enough, considering they spend 99% of their time in a box under the stairs.

I look forward to the new AT-AT. ESB is my favorite, and that can be a centerpiece for a Hoth display. I'll even be getting the GH version. Other than that, I don't think I'm buying anything Hasbro this year.

I'll admit, I've had some thoughts like this as well too (as far as the purging things down goes). With our daughter getting older, for some reason it is starting to seem silly to me for me to have so many "toys" of my own. Nothing wrong with having an interest and collecting something, but like many I'm running out of room and not sure where I want to go next with things. I've given thoughts to purging some things as well, but just haven't been able to bring myself to do a large portion of it, just small lots here and there. Heck, I keep picking up CW figures here and there every so often too, knowing that I should probably leave those for the kiddos. It isn't that I don't still enjoy it, but there is just so much stuff at this point with Star Wars alone, not to mention the other lines I collect. I don't know if I'd ever have the "guts" to do a big purge like many of you do, but I feel like that day is coming eventually. I can't picture having a whole room (or more) devoted to display and storage of toys as our daughter gets older and we continue to need room for more of her stuff (and storage in general). I can see your point of clearing out being fun in a way, and it is why I often am a bit envious of those here who have been able to do it. Cutting it down to 100 figures is an excellent goal, and I wonder who would make everyone's "cut"? - it would be interesting to see everyone's responses, I guess 100 could cover quite a bit.

I waffle on purging. I want to, I want to cut back, but being in a financial position to afford what I want really for the first time in my life has made it complicated. I never army build, or buy anything beyond figures, but my collection is pretty substantial at this point (35 years old). I should give some thought to the idea of a top 100 list - that would be hard.

Guys just accept this hobby for what this is, it's a mentally abusive relationship. You start out with the best intentions and things are great for awhile. Then come things like price raises, figures shortages & such that ruffles the feathers. You get pissed at Hasbro and leave the hobby. They make good like an apology with sweet new product offerings to lure you back to make you think like they changed, what happens next: the **** hits the fan again & you leave. You think you left for good but like any good abusive relationship you come back for more when your guard is down thinking "it will be different this time". Right now too many collectors guard are up, but rest assured they will be back. The pattern shows this.

Well, I think that with the upcoming TVC, collectors will certainly jump back to the line for a while, even if it's for experimenting. It's also gonna bring people out of collecting hibernation - those who grew up with the original vintage and no longer collect are also probably gonna be drawn back. How couldn't they?

Well, I think that with the upcoming TVC, collectors will certainly jump back to the line for a while, even if it's for experimenting. It's also gonna bring people out of collecting hibernation - those who grew up with the original vintage and no longer collect are also probably gonna be drawn back. How couldn't they?

I can only speak for myself, but I won't be coming back as a general collector, no matter what the cards look like. Other than the AT-AT, I don't see getting anything from the 3 3/4 line. It is a fine line for Hasbro to navigate- too much product, and collectors get overwhelmed. Too long of a drought, and some move on to other things. Keeping things fresh in a 15 + year old line is no easy task.

I hope the vintage-esque line is a success, but I think it will need to have its' impetus from new collectors, and prequel collectors maybe taking a dip in to the OT line more than they have. Judging by the classifieds here and elsewhere, a lot of us that have been around the last 15 years are looking to down-size, and many who used to collect multiples of each figure are cutting back the rate at which they buy.

Judging by the classifieds here and elsewhere, a lot of us that have been around the last 15 years are looking to down-size

I'm almost to that point, but honestly it's just too much work for me to round everything up and start a sale. I plan to finish the new vintage line until it dies out and then it's time for the loooong road of trying to sell a bunch of crap off to have a more manageable size collection (at least as far as my SW stuff)

Judging by the classifieds here and elsewhere, a lot of us that have been around the last 15 years are looking to down-size, and many who used to collect multiples of each figure are cutting back the rate at which they buy.

It's funny how that's been going on the last couple years. The line's at its height in terms of quality and what they're willing to give us too, but a lot of people are bailing. I know guys who've bailed for any reason under the sun though it seems, making it even harder to really regain all those folks.

I know guys who've quit because they ran out of space. Some quit because they feel Hasbro doesn't make the line "rare" enough. Some quit because they re-release things on every card and they feel trying to keep a carded collection is then pointless. Some quit because they can't find everything easily. Some because the figures became too expensive, and some simply because they "just outgrew collecting".

I still collect just about every realistic 3.75" figure. I started cutting back on what ships I buy many years ago. I began becoming selective with the 3.75" main line around 2002-ish (little after) when Hasbro's utter **** product drove me to abandon the "must have one of everything loose" mentality. Since 2008-ish though, price has been my main factor, and it hurt me the most. I'm a pretty cheap guy... All those fun accounting and finance courses I guess maybe, but when my wallet was taking kidney punches from Hasbro once the BAD stuff took off, and we were paying $7.99, I cut back so far with anything extra. I tried taking advantage of sales a lot more too. I will say though, even at $7.99, I was buying a random figure here and there to complete a BAD figure. That actually really pushed me at times.

Anyway though, the Vintage Collection look sgreat, but I really won't be over-indulging much there. I'll have the same basic strategy I had through BAD, except I won't want/need the extras from the wave now at all. So I'll be looking for the new figs, and moving on pretty much.

I'm sort of hopeful that there isn't TOO much this year too. I could use a nice easy year. I love the line, but sometimes there is too much for sure.

Some because the figures became too expensive, and some simply because they "just outgrew collecting".

Since 2008-ish though, price has been my main factor, and it hurt me the most. I'm a pretty cheap guy... All those fun accounting and finance courses I guess maybe, but when my wallet was taking kidney punches from Hasbro once the BAD stuff took off, and we were paying $7.99, I cut back so far with anything extra. I tried taking advantage of sales a lot more too. I will say though, even at $7.99, I was buying a random figure here and there to complete a BAD figure. That actually really pushed me at times.

I can't agree more with your assessment of pricing. That has been a big thing with my purchases. It is at the point where I can't buy everything when it is brand new, because I know there will be markdowns several months down the road. While I haven't been priced out of the hobby, I only get stuff I really want, (mostly Clone Wars) determine will hard to find, (Clones, McQuarries) or otherwise good values ($20 vehicles, some BPs/exclusives) when they are first released.

After having $4.00-$5.00 figures for the past several months, I know for sure that I won't be getting many of the TVC figures when they are first released in August. While Dak and Dengar look awesome, Vader, Han, and Luke can most certainly wait, especially when I can get a similar Han or Vader for $3.00 less today. I'm very torn on the Big AT-AT toy. I was able to get my 2 AT-TEs and 2 Turbo Tanks on sale, with total savings around $150. I know that I can most likely do the same with the AT-AT, but it looks way too cool to wait. At the same time, it's hard to justify the purhase at full price when I know I can save $50 several months down the road.

After having $4.00-$5.00 figures for the past several months, I know for sure that I won't be getting many of the TVC figures when they are first released in August. While Dak and Dengar look awesome, Vader, Han, and Luke can most certainly wait, especially when I can get a similar Han or Vader for $3.00 less today. I'm very torn on the Big AT-AT toy.

My budget also has been very limited to only basic figures - they're just cheaper to buy. That's why, when I first saw the AT-AT and the BMF way back in 2008, I grumbled to myself. I love the collecting hobbie, though, and can't see myself ever stopping. However, I remember in 2007 buying from a Walgreens figures that were $9 when at Target I could get them for $7. Now at Target (and most stores) they're $9 (including tax) and at the Walgreens I used to shop at they're $11 - for one figure. I hope Hasbro doesn't continue to raise prices for something that's 3.75 inches tall.

I'm sort of interested to see if the Vintage Collection line brings the "collector" numbers up again as well. We've seen a few instances of people who have been away from the Hasbro collecting for a few years consider jumping back in with vintage, but will it be enough to make a difference to Hasbro? They really drilled the point home about the TLC line performing fairly poorly, so I'll be curious to see if this is the turnaround they are looking for or not.

I can see why some are cutting back, dropping out, etc. Like Jesse and others have mentioned, there are a lot of factors these days. Price is a big one (particularly for completists and/or army builders), and there are always others issues like distribution, a collector's personal budget/space restrictions, etc. Like it has been said, this has been a pretty long ride for an action figure line (even just the modern one alone), and not many other fanbases have had these types of options available at retail for as long as we have. I'm with Jesse in that I think the quality of the stuff out there is probably the best it has ever been, and from that side of things, I've never enjoyed collecting more. It seems like each version we see come out of a character now is closer to being the "ultimate" one, whereas we used to have to wait for things like the VOTC and Evolutions line to cover those areas before.

I've looked into packing stuff up, selling stuff off, and cutting back in general as well - but it is mainly due to just the lack of space at this point. Part of that is making sure I have the room for the nice stuff on the way, like the figures, the new vehicles, the new Jabba, and whatever else we don't know about over the next couple of years. It is hard to display everything, and collecting multiples line and having it confined to one smallish room doesn't help, so I'm starting to really consider what I pick up. I know I'll be in for the entirety of the Vintage line (and maybe a carded set, definitely for the OT characters) and I'll stick with the movie-style stuff - at least in some capacity - until it ends. I'm just starting to wonder if this next 2+ years is sort of the "last hurrah" for this type of line, as Hasbro really seems to think numbers are down, we've seen some collectors stop, and we are really starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel for "never before done" characters. I know we discussed this elsewhere, but a lot of what I'm looking forward to anymore are resculpts of POTF2 era stuff. I think they could cover quite a bit of what fans want (realistically anyways) over two to three years, so we'll see.

I didn't mean for this post to get so long, but I also agree with what Jesse said with welcoming a "slower" year. I always seem to end up buying more than I expected, but I'm fine with a slower pace of figures (and everything else) with this Vintage Collection. 40 figures a year is just fine with me, along with a couple new ships/beasts/etc.

You will pardon me when I chuckle at all of you complaining about the U.S. pricing, won't you? POTJ had us up to $11.99 before Walmart jumped back in and it has been around $8.92-9.99 plus taxes ever since. You might think it interesting that I dropped out because I'm too tired of chasing product a country away but I find it funny you guys won't tolerate what we paid all along. Wah. ;)

No, that wasn't a factor. Retailers told us it was, but TRU was just robbing us blind. Our price has been pretty much stable since the POTJ days, so whenever that was. The dollar dropped post POTJ and didn't really rise much until after ROTS with no effect on pricing at all. 2002 was when the dollar bottomed out at that 2/3 ratio you mention. We were as much as $0.10 more than the US dollar and there's been no effect on price.

It's funny, but I did manage to link up with probably one of the few guys in the world that actually did see it as something worthwhile. I ended up being friends with a guy in Japan that was really into the trilogo/Canadian packaging and I've been sending him stuff for probably 7-8 years now. We started trading but eventually I was just shipping it to him at cost. Some ups, some downs, but ultimately he's helped me out with some Kubrick stuff and some pretty tough Gentle Giant stuff (Black Hole Stormtrooper at cost for example).

I wouldn't have thought anyone was into that, but somebody was. Good guy.

No, that wasn't a factor. Retailers told us it was, but TRU was just robbing us blind. Our price has been pretty much stable since the POTJ days, so whenever that was. The dollar dropped post POTJ and didn't really rise much until after ROTS with no effect on pricing at all. 2002 was when the dollar bottomed out at that 2/3 ratio you mention. We were as much as $0.10 more than the US dollar and there's been no effect on price.

That was the summer I drove through Canada when I left Alaska. Dude, trying to figure out what I was paying in gas with the both the conversion from gallons to liters plus the money conversion! I have a degree in Math and thought my head might explode! ;D

One of my thoughts is that at this time, there is no one specific Star Wars type of fan. Some like OT, some like the PT, some like the OT, and PT. Some only know the games, some only know the books, some follow the comics. So while there still may be tons of fans, their interests are so spread out, that it's hard for that fanbase to support certain products.

My second thought revolves around Hasbro essentially shutting down SW from about May to August. It seems that they've done this for the last 3 years, to give room to their other properties. That's close to 3 months, 1/4 of the year. (I wonder if they have predicted a 1/4 drop in sales as well?) That's a long time to not go looking for product, and it gives people a chance to get interested in other things. I know that I can go long times without SW stuff, so when new things hit, I don't always snatch them up.

I think those are both excellent points, speedermike. Star Wars collectors seem to be all over the place these days, like you said. Some are really digging CW, some are content just to watch the show. Some are dropping more and more of the PT stuff as we get further out from those movies, and some are just getting more selective altogether. I think there is a segment even that couldn't care less about the OT stuff (granted, likely a minority), which is really surprising to me. Although I still buy pretty much all of it (at least all of Legacy/Vintage, and some of CW), I can say my priorities are starting to change a bit as well. I know, as cool as I think they are, I'm starting to stop with the CW vehicle stuff (aside from the Deluxe line, or something that appeared in the prequels like Slave 1), just because I'm running out of room at this point, which I think many people are. I look at it like, would I rather have room for another Jedi Starfighter or the new Snowspeeder/Cloud Car. The OT stuff takes precedence for me, and after that I just see what I have room or budget for.

The SW drought is a big factor as well I think. As much as we still talk about it here and everything, I do think it allows people to "forget" about Star Wars for a large chunk of the year. Like you said, people move on to different things in the time being, and maybe don't come back - or at least not as big as they were before. We say it every year, but I really hope we don't see the big break next year. Having a wave every month to 6 weeks would be good, and keep people interested more. We'll have to see though, as Hasbro has a lot of movie-related lines likely coming next year with Thor, Captain America, Transformers, and possibly X-Men: First Class. That often seems to make a difference when pushing SW to the backburner during the summer.

Well for me, several things factor in. IF I had the extra money I'm sure I'd be buying more things. But with only one income it just isn't feasable for me. PLus, now that my son is old enough to like a lot of things, I primarily buy for him. I haven't actually bought 'me' anything in a long time. If he's not into it, I usually don't get it so I can get him something. But between us, he likes Clone Wars and mostly the Troopers more than the Jedi's but he did want Mace Windu for his recent Bday plus a Commando Droid. I also got him the Anakin stap battle set at christmas and an Obi-wan. So he only has three CW jedis; he said he sorta wanted Ahsoka but not sure. He also got a Dooku from a walgreens pharmacy store that was on sale for $4. He does have regular BDs and SBDs plus a couple Droidekas. We have more OT stuff like vehicles and figures than PT. PLus he likes legos A LOT, so we have several lego SW ships with their mini-figs taking up space. I wantd the BMF a couple years back but he didn't and we didn't have the room, then at christams he decided he wanted the At-te so he got that. Now he wants the new Bat-at and I know we'll get that! So we're kinda all over the place with what we are intersted in.

While the interwebz seem to be burning up with reports of The Vintage Collection being found in TRU stores, I'm biding my time and waiting. Call it lack of interest if you will. I think I'm just trying to save some money since the prices are kind of high at TRU while they've got figures and relatively few other chains do have them in stock.

While the interwebz seem to be burning up with reports of The Vintage Collection being found in TRU stores, I'm biding my time and waiting. Call it lack of interest if you will. I think I'm just trying to save some money since the prices are kind of high at TRU while they've got figures and relatively few other chains do have them in stock.

I agree with you Nick - if it weren't for the fact that TRU has a been running a BOGO on all SW product this week which resulted in me getting the Vintage ESB wave for $7.49 instead of what seems to be the TRU price of $9.99. I have to almost wonder if they KNEW that the Vintage was going to be put out during the sale and they purposely set the higher price just so they weren't taking a huge loss on them.

The only reason I even picked up CW #01 - CW #19 and SL #01 - #12 now, as opposed to waiting was because I was buying each figure for $5.62 instead of $7.49. I think it will be a long while before any of the Shadows of the Dark Side product is available for that price - probably not even until the holiday shopping season.