I posted on lymenet about the comparative merits of ozone therapy and hyperbaric, and so far, based on my own research and what I've heard from others that have tried both, ozone not only comes out as a clear winner (esp. for those of us with high infectious/toxic loads) but seems to be more affordable in the long run.

You asked me and I told you hyperbaric was a lifesaver for me. I think the world of Saul and his equipment but it is not the same anyway. Hyperbaric is not a killing therapy per se. It can markedly suppress anaerobic infection but it heals tissue, perfuses hypoxic tissue with oxygen, saves the brain, shifts one to a parasympathetic state, and also increases stem cell production, among other benefits.

So I'm surprised you say that everybody you surveyed preferred ozone as I know you know I said the opposite.

I thought that hadn't done long-term ozone but that you might in the future. I said "from others that had tried both". If you have tried it since that time and still prefer hyperbaric, I would change my statement.

However, I'm glad the hyperbaric worked out so well for you. The point of my post wasn't really to establish superiority. I just think ozone deserves far more mention that is has. Most people know about hyperbaric as an oxidative therapy, but far fewer know about ozone or have responded to threads on ozone. Even if they were equally effective, it would seemingly be more affordable to do home therapy with ozone for those that cannot travel for treatments.

Hi Joey, I don't primarily think of hyperbaric oxygen as oxidative therapy. I do understand that it has an aspect of that, but to me that is not is primary method of healing. Ozone is used by our neutrophils (03) to help kill stuff in an oxidative burst. Ozone probably also dissolves biofilms and it degrades toxins. If tolerated, it surely can be very helpful but it's quite different than hyperbaric oxygen.

Many CFSers or long term lymies are in a very depleted hypoxic state. Maybe some of us lymies have red blood cell parasites, or babesia compromising our epithelial integrity. Good nutrients, healing blood, can't even get where it needs to go. Hyperbaric oxygen can offset damage to all tissues throughout the body, and perhaps (I speculate) preserve the brain and heart from what Cheney calls Stage 3.

Well here I am posting again a bit too much and that worries me . So I will sign off but just say hyperbaric has been a true lifesaver for me.

I always appreciate your scientific insight, so I do hope you'll continue to post here.

I've been trying to understand how ozone and hyperbaric differ beyond the killing sense. I was not aware of ozone dissolving biofilms, but that's good to know.

It does they work on the cellular hypoxia in different ways: ozone conceptually would work on it by oxidizing toxins that may be interferring with the gates of the mitochondrial matrix or maybe in the matrix external to the cellular environment that Klinghardt refers to. Whereas hyperbaric would supply much higher amounts of ground state oxygen in hopes that oversaturation of oxygen would increase cellular absorption (Cheney said our problem isn't saturation but 2,3-dpg levels)?

Overall, I think you're right in the sense that we need to be more careful with ozone than with hyperbaric, because it can create a huge backlog of toxins that our liver may not be equipped to expel. Dr. Saul universally requires a series of 7 liver flushes (i'm on 4) before going into daily therapy. that's a ton of liver flushes.

Hi Joey, I don't primarily think of hyperbaric oxygen as oxidative therapy. I do understand that it has an aspect of that, but to me that is not is primary method of healing. Ozone is used by our neutrophils (03) to help kill stuff in an oxidative burst. Ozone probably also dissolves biofilms and it degrades toxins. If tolerated, it surely can be very helpful but it's quite different than hyperbaric oxygen.

Many CFSers or long term lymies are in a very depleted hypoxic state. Maybe some of us lymies have red blood cell parasites, or babesia compromising our epithelial integrity. Good nutrients, healing blood, can't even get where it needs to go. Hyperbaric oxygen can offset damage to all tissues throughout the body, and perhaps (I speculate) preserve the brain and heart from what Cheney calls Stage 3.

Well here I am posting again a bit too much and that worries me . So I will sign off but just say hyperbaric has been a true lifesaver for me.

I really took a cognitive hit earlier this week with a dental appointment, so I'm not going to try to say too much. Just wanted to mention however, that I have a big interest in both of these modalities, and will be following this thread with interest.

I've been sick for 4 years now. The reason why so many ppl seem to have trouble with ozone is because most ME sufferers have a huge backlog of toxins as well as tons of stealth pathogens. If our detoxification is impaired, ozone MUST be done with extreme caution. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a place for it for ME/CFS patients that have the right combo of detox genetics and are willing to cleanse out their systems both before and during ozone therapy. For those with weaker genetics, maybe it can be integrated after an aggressive detox protocol is done first.

I have heard of many that eventually improved, some significantly, with the sue of ozone, but patients almost universally started out worse before they got better.

One advantage of ozone other other pathogen-killers is that it kills while cleaning toxins. I don't know of any other therapy that offers such a 1-2 punch.

I know of one other therapy that might have a better one two punch!!.lol

I agree with alot of what you said!! Ozone destroyed me, however looking back, my body was not prepared for such a treatment.

And I think this gets us back to working with docs who really know what they are doing. Knowing the ins and outs of detoxing and the bodies physics behind it.

We mention some very good treatments, but if the body simply is not prepared for these agents put in the body, the results can be negative.

The integrative approach with these therapies seems to be sooo important.

Yea, ozone is a great treatment, if you can find a doc who does it and can make sure the body is prepped for the release of toxins!

A key also, I think doing these therapies consistently and often.... as can be tolerated to keep them toxins flowing, rather than just lifting toxins off the cells and kinda just landing on other cells, if that makes sense to ya.

All detox treatments will have a degree of redistribution, but minimizing this is very important!

I think it's really important to reiterate an integrative approach to all ME/CFS patients for reasons above, so nobody gets hurt, which is most important!

I did get hurt by B-12, glutathione, ozone and some other treatments. However if these docs would have worked on my gut, lymph system..e.t.c. I think the results could have been dramatically different!!

I bought a ozone unit far superior to Saul's. There are two companies (or were anyway) who sold these out of Canada. The guy made me get training on how to use it before he would even sell it to me.

I did saunas, rectals, ears, water and nothing happened good or bad. When I went for training the lady removed a lot of blood and mixed it with ozone and sent it back into my bloodstream. I think Klinghardt, Mr. alternative has even said that ozone is not useful in the vast majority of Lyme cases.

Too bad, it wasn't cheap; I know it has worked for some but the data I gathered through several people says it doesn't work for the vast majority.

most of us would rather do it mike's way (gentle but precisely targeted), but there are very few doctors that have as good a grasp of both the psychneuroimmunology of CFS as well as the energy-based principles. It's usually a give and take. For example, I have a few practitioners in CA that are expert energetic testers IMHO, but they're only as useful as the questions and knowledge they have.

Also, it's difficult to apply energetic testing to the subconscious. When you get high readings on electrodermal or EAV testing for physical entities such as viruses or glands, it's easy to fathom there is stress at that level. However, for an organ such as the amygdala that may be responding in an atypical way but still not doing anything it wasn't designed to do in the first place (respond to stress), it may not show up as an elevated reading.

So at the end of the day, a doctor like Mike's seems to be a truly rare hybrid of both ends, and until this type of practice is more widely disseminated, use of purely energetic-based stimulation of intrinsic detoxification may be unrealistic for some patients.

I was curious, where did you hear Dr. Klinghardt say ozone doesn't work in the vast majority of lyme patients?

Although I am very very fond of Dr. Klinghardt's research & theory, it is worth mentioning that he has a company that sells just about all the products that he vouches for in his presentations. For one, ozone is illegal in the U.S. so he cannot sell that just like he cannot sell photon machines like the one that I have from Germany. He has withheld opinion up until this point on photon machines despite talking about the "photon field' frequently in his presentations. He has gotten investigated by the FDA for selling certain devices, so I would expect him to err on the side of caution. Also, his ozonated oils are his main recommendations for lyme and co-infection management, so clearly he thinks there is something to ozone.

Yes, one of the Rizols, Epsilon I believe did help me for a few months. My practitioner said it was for viruses using ART muscle testing.

You're right, it seems Klinghardt changes his program every year and conveniently sells the products he recommends. I have heard of a couple miracles he seemingly pulled off for severe patients but that is Lyme and co-infections.

This is from one of his articles: "Many treatment modalities have been surprisingly ineffective: ozone, hyperbaric oxygen, ICHT (intracellular
hyperthermia) and many others." I haven't done hyperbaric but obviously people have benefited from that.