the league of shadows does not exact its plans in normalcy. using a microwave emitter to release a toxin into the city of gotham throwing it into panic is hardly acting through normalcy. try again. not to mention both ras al ghul and dr. crane tell their plans to people as well as the police finding the toxin in the water supply. again not exactly acting through normalcy or hiding in the shadows.

also Bane and Talia are a more extreme version of the LOS. this is stated multiple times throughout the film. blatantly i might add.

catwoman struggles with ideals throughout because bruce the apparent epitome of her hatred is also the epitome of her hero. She hates the establishment but shows respect for batman fighting outside of the establishment. shown throughout the movie she toys with batman, enjoys batmans company, but ultimately wants to be free of her past. the look on her face when she gives up batman to bane says it all. she sees the error of her ways. then in the meeting with john blake she is on the verge of tears when blake brings up bruce. then catwoman sees the prisoners of gotham tearing up the city and again shows remorse and pain. even her partner who is in love with the new gotham asks "isn't this everything we wanted" and she simply shrugs and looks towards the camera in emotional pain. then she sees the little boy about to get beaten up over a stolen apple, beats the men up and says "never steal from someone you can't run away from". she has seen a world she thought she wanted and each time was surprised at how an unlawful world breeds pain and suffering. again shown throughout the movie. also catwoman has a partner? yes and yet each time she keeps her away from danger and also is not with her at all times. so if she keeps her out of danger why would she take her with her to help batman fight bane? logic would say she wont. this doesn't happen over 10 minutes this happens over the entire movie, especially once bane beats batman.

miranda tate does not drop out from nowhere. she is ras al ghuls daughter who michael caine and morgan freeman both acknowledge have been dealing with bruce and wayne enterprises for years. miranda is even on the board of wayne enterprises. she funded the bulding of the nuclear reactor. again this is 8 years after the dark knight. it is established that miranda and bruce have met several times after bruce's exodus from gotham. Bruce even remarks "she is a persistent one". Alfred and lucious also try to tell bruce that miranda is a perfect woman for him. again she didn't just appear. she was established as a character who existed in the universe in between the happenings of the dark knight and rises. Miranda is exacting her plan throughout the entire movie. She has sex with bruce to seal his trust after she has bane destroy wayne industries financially, she has bane funded by deggett which batman would be able to find out, knowing this bruce would turn to miranda and show her the nuclear reactor and its location that she knew he was hiding from her since bane kidnapped dr. pavel who helped build the reactor. again pay attention

bane never invades apartments. everyone but the rich are safe in their apartments. comissioner gordon even remarks to the sargent. "what did you do bury your uniform in the backyard". Bane let the people of gotham live their lives giving them hope the city was theirs. he trapped the police underground and put a man at every man hole where the police are underground. but the people are left just fine. the orphans aren't touched because Bane was creating an image that he was giving the city back to the people and taking it away from the rich. again explained through banes speech. he wasn't invading homes except the homes of the top 1% because he was avoiding the image of a destoryer and trying to portray the image of a liberator. "gotham this is the instrument of your liberation"

if he was just out for carnage from the beginning he would blow up the nuke from the beginning. he wanted to punish gotham. Batman is the representation of gotham. he is given hope and not killed but with the expectation to have his hope destroyed. the same goes for gotham. he wanted to people to feel free so he can take it away from them. exactly what he says to bruce he wants to do to him. Bane also tells bruce he is doing the same thing to gotham.

again Bane himself explains keeping the cops alive. its for the same reason he keeps bruce alive. bane wants them to watch the city burn with no way to stop him. he wants them to suffer for their crimes of putting men in jail. he wants them to sit and wait until the explosion knowing they couldn't help the people of gotham. Death is too easy. their punishment must be more severe. explained by bane himself.

Bane keeps the cops alive. he feeds them and sends them supplies. this is shown throughout the movie. he drops crates of supplies. he wants them alive. Again explained in the film. Blake has nothing to do with them being alive. all he does is keep them updated on whats happening up above.

Bane didnt think they could escape concrete because the only man that could save them was in the pit that no man had ever escaped from.

also police did have weapons. they were shooting back at the otherside after batman had EMP'ed the tumblers. both sides were getting mowed down until in close battle. Should there have been more carnage from bullets? probably but was their no carnage? no. there were several dead bodies in the street. so either you werent watching or chose to ignore that fact.

ah the old how did bruce get back to gotham. the easiest of them all. if you have seen batman begins you would know that bruce throws away his wallet and ID and hops on a boat to travel to the otherside of the world and learn the way of the criminal. he travels from country to country doing this without any money or ID. now because its a new movie he cannot do the same. interesting

Good comeback Still lacking on the broken back being fixed in that span of time, but you did alright in explaining other stuff. There are still leaps in there that I don't buy. And again I could also keep going with problems in the plot and film, but I don
't wanna bother, I've already gone deeper into this than I wanted to anyway.

Again, I know people are curiously protective of this film and anything to do with Batman. I still don't know exactly why, but so be it.

Again, I'm allowed to think the film sucked, which it did.

We can go back and forth all day "without breaking a sweat", but your opinion and protectiveness over this film won't change and my opinion on this bloated and overblown film won't either. Again, I'm allowed to dislike it as much as you are to be in love with it.

This is part of what makes movies fun, the debate and the talking about them afterward.

Windu: Fair enough, to each their own. However, I do find it sad that a lot of younger people today won't (and sometimes refuse) to look deeper into film history (and music or other entertainment fields) than the last 20 years or so. It's important to know your history and where ideas sprouted from. Give older films a try, you may surprise yourself.

P.S. - By the way regarding your "Citizen Kane" plot hole. There is a scene after the opening montage in which a reporter explains to the rest of the press watching the newsreel, that Kane went over his life story with them before he died (hence the montage). In that story, the reporter goes down to tell the press Charles Kane's last word, "Rosebud". So try as you might, it isn't a hole. Anyhoo...

Windu: Fair enough, to each their own. But I find it sad that a lot of younger people today won't (and sometimes refuse) to look deeper into film history than the last 20 years or so. It's important to know your history and where ideas sprouted from. Give older films a try, you may surprise yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy older movies as well...I just haven't heard of some the movies you listed. Can't comment on 60s movies except for To Kill A Mockingbird which I love along with the book.

HA! I'm with you Windu, when you start listing them out it's amazing how many movies you like! I could go on for pages. I have about 2500 movies here along with some TV stuff and it just goes on and on. Some of your favorites by the way are awesome! Some I can debate with, but everyone likes what they like, they shouldn't have to justify it. I like a fair amount of absolute crap / junk too.

And yeah, "To Kill A Mockingbird" is just unbeatable cinematic greatness.

We have more movies in common than I think you or me ever thought actually.

Star Wars (Nothing to say but one of my life's inspirations on all fronts)Jaws (The first one scared the crap outta me as a kid, love it)Rocky (The first one is amazing. Few people know Sylvester Stallone has an Oscar at home for this flick. 3 and 4 are stupid outlandish fun too)The Exorcist (Not as scary as most think but still a great achievement in suspense)Halloween (I am a big John Carpenter fan, but he's done a lot of crap too)Coming To America (An awesome flick, Eddie Murphy's last great comedy)Raiders Of The Lost Ark (An absolute classic. People who don't like this movie I have no business talking to, ever)The Empire Strikes Back (The best film in the saga by far, and just a flawless film really)The Terminator (Always a fan since I saw it in the theatre. Not so much the other parts though, 3 was alright, 2 is just mediocre for me)The Princess Bride (Proof that all chick flicks do not have to suck)A Christmas Story (Favorite Christmas movie of all time, next to the original "Miracle On 34th Street")Return Of The Jedi (Although it's my least favorite of the original trilogy by a wide margin)A Nightmare On Elm Street (Another movie that scared the hell out of us when it was new - funny to think that now. Part 3 is decent too)Full Metal Jacket (Most don't like anything after the boot camp scenes, but I LOVE this damn movie. In a tie with "A Clockwork Orange" for Kubrick's best in my opinion)Pulp Fiction (We used to have "Pulp Tuesdays" where we'd go to the cheap theatre and see Pulp Fiction every Tuesday. Derivative as all hell, but a great movie)The Silence Of The Lambs (Too bad it's sequels have dumbed the first one, a syndrome I refer to as "The Police Academy Virus", but just a great movie)Dances With Wolves (A movie I fought like hell to not go see, but when I gave in, I loved it)Braveheart (The last great Mel Gibson movie)Boyz 'N The Hood (There will never be another film about this subject that comes close to this. How it didn't win best picture that year was and still is beyond me)

See, Windu, you and me - opposite ends on a lot of issues but we can find some common ground.

Yeh, I'm sort of a hybrid: An eighties baby that likes old and new stuff. I love old music and new music (although some of the new music is trash), old movies and new movies, old books and new books.

I think I had a debate with you or someone else on the "old" star wars movies vs the "new" ones. For me, this goes beyond just the movies because I'm a star wars fanatic: I make sure I read ALL of the books/novels and watch ALL of the movies. I thank Lucas for creating the star wars universe but I'm also grateful for the authors that have expanded Stars Wars with novels on Luke Skywalker and in depth detail on a host of other characters and the Force itself.

My wife always calls me old (I'm only 29 lol)

Now, Coming To America? Thats my movie...I could watch that movie all day long. Somehow I managed to see it when I was a little kid and it's always stayed with me.

I use to have a big movie collection too but I'm going to start it all up again...on blu ray. The range of movies I like is large and it helps me enjoy a variety of movies. Action, Adventure, Comedy, Horror, Drama. One minute I'm watching something ridiculously over the top like Me, Myself, and Irene...and then the next I'm watching something like To Kill A Mockingbird.

Good comeback Still lacking on the broken back being fixed in that span of time, but you did alright in explaining other stuff. There are still leaps in there that I don't buy. And again I could also keep going with problems in the plot and film, but I don't wanna bother, I've already gone deeper into this than I wanted to anyway.

apologize for missing the back. didn't see it in there. well the back wasn't a broken spine. it was a herniated disk. a la dwight howard. a bulging disk doesn't take long to heal as dr. klapper said and doesn't even really always need surgery. 3 months isn't too much for it to heal. especially since bruce isn't in a teams future plans and planning to be the face of a franchise. dwight could have been practicing not too long after surgery but risked a 5-10% chance of re-injury. but he's being paid to be healthy. bruce has to save a city so as soon as it felt good it was time to get training and get out of the prison.

i agree people have opinions, and i usually don't care if people don't like a movie because people have different taste, and art which is what all movies are is a subjective thing. i don't think its chris nolans best. it wasn't the achievement in originality as well as the flawless execution of Inception. nor did it have the charismatic villain of the dark knight, but i still believe it was a very good movie that closed the trilogy right.

the thing that bothers me is when people call plot hole when i don't believe they exist. had you said you didnt like it because you thought the story was poor, or the action was poor or something along those lines i would have disagreed but probably not argued. but the plot hole thing is where i decide to put in my 2 cents.

last stand: When you start messing with time travel it's virtually impossible to not screw something up. Tougher to write than most people think. And cool on everything else, just didn't want to go on and on for pages arguing a pointless argument back and forth. It does nothing but become personal and get people riled over what is just entertainment.

It's just movies after all, never anything to take personal!

Windu: I was a fan of the new Star Wars films, but when I stepped back from the excitement of new Star Wars films, I realized they are just bad movies. One of the bigger heartbreaks for me in the movies actually. i wish they were executed much, much better. Anyway, Star Wars is a giant influence on me. My parents still love to tell people about me (I was 7 then) jumping up and down in the aisles and cheering while the final battle took place on the Death Star. But Star Wars made me want to draw, play music and be involved in films, all things I still pursue to this day. It's been a huge thing for me.

Also, I hated the "Clone Wars" show (the new one), because I was a big fan of Tartakovsky's "Clone Wars" - still am. But I've come around on that show and am fully hooked on it. Got my wife hooked too actually, kinda funny.

I'm actually working on an immense Star Wars piece (drawing) right now. It's taking me forever but it should be done and for sale by October (hopefully).

Very cool - you and me could watch movies together all day. I'm the same way. I hate holing myself int one genre. I will give most anything a try (as long as Tom Cruise isn't it, can't stand him and haven't since day one). I just don't want people to ignore older movies simply because they're old. I hear younger people say things, "Oh that's old, I don't wanna see that", without giving it a try and it irks me to no end.

Lastly, "Coming To America" is fantastic - and you're not even close to old!

are you talking about the clone wars animation? I think it's pretty decent (but again I like virtually ANYTHING that has to do with star wars...don't care what it is) but I can never catch it on tv

my wife will never become hooked on star wars

yeh, let me know when you finish that star wars piece; I'd like to check it out

I'll watch virtually anything...except chick flicks

tom isn't the greatest actor in the world but I can sit back and enjoy some of his movies...like Top Gun, all the Mission Impossible movies (wish they would have given Anthony Hopkins a bigger role), Rain Man.

Some actors, no matter the genre, you just have to see their movies and for me two actors stand out: Anthony Hopkins and Denzel Washington

If i recall correctly Fido has a job in the movie industry of some sort. I remember his saying that in the Carrer thread. Maybe thats why he looks into movies more im depth than the avg consumer. For me its about the action that is probably why i liked Avengers better than DKR

If i recall correctly Fido has a job in the movie industry of some sort. I remember his saying that in the Carrer thread. Maybe thats why he looks into movies more im depth than the avg consumer. For me its about the action that is probably why i liked Avengers better than DKR

Just because you work in the movie industry doesn't make you full proof or even an authority

(not speaking about you fido)

If that were the case then there wouldn't be so many screw ups during the oscars(they supposedly go more in depth right)

Movies are about biases, art is the most bias driven thing on the planet. There is no objectivity when it comes to art.

In fact it works the same in sports. Just because you played a sport doesn't make you an authority on it. You shouldn't buy everything your sold just because someone worked in an industry or played in a sport

last stand: When you start messing with time travel it's virtually impossible to not screw something up. Tougher to write than most people think. And cool on everything else, just didn't want to go on and on for pages arguing a pointless argument back and forth. It does nothing but become personal and get people riled over what is just entertainment.

It's just movies after all, never anything to take personal!

Windu: I was a fan of the new Star Wars films, but when I stepped back from the excitement of new Star Wars films, I realized they are just bad movies. One of the bigger heartbreaks for me in the movies actually. i wish they were executed much, much better. Anyway, Star Wars is a giant influence on me. My parents still love to tell people about me (I was 7 then) jumping up and down in the aisles and cheering while the final battle took place on the Death Star. But Star Wars made me want to draw, play music and be involved in films, all things I still pursue to this day. It's been a huge thing for me.

Also, I hated the "Clone Wars" show (the new one), because I was a big fan of Tartakovsky's "Clone Wars" - still am. But I've come around on that show and am fully hooked on it. Got my wife hooked too actually, kinda funny.

I'm actually working on an immense Star Wars piece (drawing) right now. It's taking me forever but it should be done and for sale by October (hopefully).

Very cool - you and me could watch movies together all day. I'm the same way. I hate holing myself int one genre. I will give most anything a try (as long as Tom Cruise isn't it, can't stand him and haven't since day one). I just don't want people to ignore older movies simply because they're old. I hear younger people say things, "Oh that's old, I don't wanna see that", without giving it a try and it irks me to no end.

Lastly, "Coming To America" is fantastic - and you're not even close to old!

I agree and I still love each of those movies. ( though admittedly the saving private Ryan plot hole killed the movie for me once someone pointed it out to me)

But I can forgive the terminator plot hole because it's so well done , BTF may have too many plot holes but the movie gets by IMO on Michael j fox's charm and charisma and the Zany doc brown

Never said it made you full proof. I like many people thought it was overhyped but I agree people are sensitive when others critique their favorite movie and take it as an insult. Everything fido pointed out was true about plot holes but that did not stop me from enjoying the movie.

Never said it made you full proof. I like many people thought it was overhyped but I agree people are sensitive when others critique their favorite movie and take it as an insult. Everything fido pointed out was true about plot holes but that did not stop me from enjoying the movie.

Apparently you didn't see my explanation that fido even acknowledged was well done.

I agree and I still love each of those movies. ( though admittedly the saving private Ryan plot hole killed the movie for me once someone pointed it out to me

You talking about how the story is told from Private Ryans POV, including the D Day Omaha Beach landing and the events immediatly after even though he wasn't there, and it's not likely Tom Hanks character gave him a detailed account of what happened before they found him?

I watched the movie in theaters when I was 8, most def never noticed. Watched it again some years later on TV, didn't catch it. Purchased the BD last year, seen it at least twice and still didn't catch it until a friend of mine told me about it a few months ago when discussing the film.

If that's what you're referring to, it didn't really kill or ruin the movie for me. Hanks was superb.

You talking about how the story is told from Private Ryans POV, including the D Day Omaha Beach landing and the events immediatly after even though he wasn't there, and it's not likely Tom Hanks character gave him a detailed account of what happened before they found him?

I watched the movie in theaters when I was 8, most def never noticed. Watched it again some years later on TV, didn't catch it. Purchased the BD last year, seen it at least twice and still didn't catch it until a friend of mine told me about it a few months ago when discussing the film.

If that's what you're referring to, it didn't really kill or ruin the movie for me. Hanks was superb.

I gues ruin the movie is a strong word, but it definitely damages it. It's just a big WTF

It's definitely something I doubt many people notice until someone points it out. For me it's kind of like a magic trick that someone tells you how it's done and it loses some of it's luster