That loud mouth, self-serving, had a lot to say when the Richardson trade happened. I wonder what he is thinking now while his two picks "to change the course of the franchise" are wastes of roster space. If I knew how to find a Seattle Radio station, I could probably hear all about how it's someone else's fault and both players are still potentiall HOFers.

Let's hope new regime has a better track record. So far so good.

Do not use alternative letters to get around the swearword filter please

Fair to say that after going 0-4 with QB's (Delhomme, Wallace, McCoy & Weeden) the game has passed the "QB guru" by.

Frankly, Holmgren as a GM was a bust from the get-go. Not only were his 24/7 executive hours here a joke (24 hours a week, 7 months a year) but he was a bust as a GM in Seattle - they didn't make it to the show until he was relieved of such duties and made to concentrate on coaching alone.

Yes, Holmgren was an example of the Peter Principle as the game has long since passed him by. Too bad as I liked Mike but hated his performance and with the draft of 2012, he was surely to be fired for incompetence. I am surprised teams still pay him for being a walrus.

Fair to say that after going 0-4 with QB's (Delhomme, Wallace, McCoy & Weeden) the game has passed the "QB guru" by.

Frankly, Holmgren as a GM was a bust from the get-go. Not only were his 24/7 executive hours here a joke (24 hours a week, 7 months a year) but he was a bust as a GM in Seattle - they didn't make it to the show until he was relieved of such duties and made to concentrate on coaching alone.

Glad he's gone, don't care what he says one way or another.

1. he wasnt gm
2. his regime built the foundation for the wins that we are seeing now...

I think it is funny how quick you all have turned on Holmgren and Heckart. Yes thy whiffed on Richardson and Weeden, but if it were not for their drafting we would still be one of the 3 worst teams in the league. They brought in more talent than every other regime in new Browns history combined.

Haden, Ward, Skrine, Gipson, Robertson, Sheard, Taylor, Winn, Hughes, Kitchen, Bademosi, Gordon, Benjamin, Jordan, and Ogobanaya are pretty much the core of this team and all brought in by H&H.

So far only Hoyer, Campbell, Bryant and Mingo have been worth anything brought I by Banner. Then Rubin, Jackson and Thomas were all Sabage guys with Mack being the lone Mangini guy.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have been fired, but we should all be happy and grateful for everything positive they did do in 3 years. No regime on any team in the history of the league was perfect and many even have multiple picks that could be considered embarrassing. Shurmur was their biggest mistake and help everyone back from young players to vets to the FO._________________

I think it is funny how quick you all have turned on Holmgren and Heckart. Yes thy whiffed on Richardson and Weeden, but if it were not for their drafting we would still be one of the 3 worst teams in the league. They brought in more talent than every other regime in new Browns history combined.

Haden, Ward, Skrine, Gipson, Robertson, Sheard, Taylor, Winn, Hughes, Kitchen, Bademosi, Gordon, Benjamin, Jordan, and Ogobanaya are pretty much the core of this team and all brought in by H&H.

So far only Hoyer, Campbell, Bryant and Mingo have been worth anything brought I by Banner. Then Rubin, Jackson and Thomas were all Sabage guys with Mack being the lone Mangini guy.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have been fired, but we should all be happy and grateful for everything positive they did do in 3 years. No regime on any team in the history of the league was perfect and many even have multiple picks that could be considered embarrassing. Shurmur was their biggest mistake and help everyone back from young players to vets to the FO.

Agreed and you could argue that the TRich and Weeden picks were an effort to win now and save their jobs. I'm sure they knew their jobs were in jeopardy when the ownership changed, a shame that 1st round ended up being a waste but at least the new FO managed to salvage the TRich selection._________________

nugpimpenJoined: 18 Feb 2006Posts: 28099Location: 10 Miles South of Cleveland

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:01 am Post subject:

pmk wrote:

KamTrus20 wrote:

I think it is funny how quick you all have turned on Holmgren and Heckart. Yes thy whiffed on Richardson and Weeden, but if it were not for their drafting we would still be one of the 3 worst teams in the league. They brought in more talent than every other regime in new Browns history combined.

Haden, Ward, Skrine, Gipson, Robertson, Sheard, Taylor, Winn, Hughes, Kitchen, Bademosi, Gordon, Benjamin, Jordan, and Ogobanaya are pretty much the core of this team and all brought in by H&H.

So far only Hoyer, Campbell, Bryant and Mingo have been worth anything brought I by Banner. Then Rubin, Jackson and Thomas were all Sabage guys with Mack being the lone Mangini guy.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have been fired, but we should all be happy and grateful for everything positive they did do in 3 years. No regime on any team in the history of the league was perfect and many even have multiple picks that could be considered embarrassing. Shurmur was their biggest mistake and help everyone back from young players to vets to the FO.

Agreed and you could argue that the TRich and Weeden picks were an effort to win now and save their jobs. I'm sure they knew their jobs were in jeopardy when the ownership changed, a shame that 1st round ended up being a waste but at least the new FO managed to salvage the TRich selection.

True

Plus I find it hard to put a ton of blame on people that draft a player that is almost unanimously thought to be a good/great pick, as Trent was._________________
2015 Adopt-A-Brown:
Joe Thomas, GOAT
Christian Kirksey, ILB

I think it is funny how quick you all have turned on Holmgren and Heckart. Yes thy whiffed on Richardson and Weeden, but if it were not for their drafting we would still be one of the 3 worst teams in the league. They brought in more talent than every other regime in new Browns history combined.

Haden, Ward, Skrine, Gipson, Robertson, Sheard, Taylor, Winn, Hughes, Kitchen, Bademosi, Gordon, Benjamin, Jordan, and Ogobanaya are pretty much the core of this team and all brought in by H&H.

So far only Hoyer, Campbell, Bryant and Mingo have been worth anything brought I by Banner. Then Rubin, Jackson and Thomas were all Sabage guys with Mack being the lone Mangini guy.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have been fired, but we should all be happy and grateful for everything positive they did do in 3 years. No regime on any team in the history of the league was perfect and many even have multiple picks that could be considered embarrassing. Shurmur was their biggest mistake and help everyone back from young players to vets to the FO.

Agreed and you could argue that the TRich and Weeden picks were an effort to win now and save their jobs. I'm sure they knew their jobs were in jeopardy when the ownership changed, a shame that 1st round ended up being a waste but at least the new FO managed to salvage the TRich selection.

yeah but if you look at what we could have selected in 2012... it doesn't look so good. Tannehill and... mercilus? maybe (we were 4-3) Harrison smith?

Fair to say that after going 0-4 with QB's (Delhomme, Wallace, McCoy & Weeden) the game has passed the "QB guru" by.

Frankly, Holmgren as a GM was a bust from the get-go. Not only were his 24/7 executive hours here a joke (24 hours a week, 7 months a year) but he was a bust as a GM in Seattle - they didn't make it to the show until he was relieved of such duties and made to concentrate on coaching alone.

Glad he's gone, don't care what he says one way or another.

1. he wasnt gm
2. his regime built the foundation for the wins that we are seeing now...

Thank you Mistake, I think we are in the minority though. I truly believe Holmgren bringing in Heckert was the best thing the Browns have done since 1999. That was the foundation of the 5 year plan Holmgren sold us, but never got to complete (ironically next year we are supposed to be contenders, which is year 5).

People can hate on Holmgren all they want, but he knew his days were numbered in CLE before his staff got through a third draft. Yes I am defending the guy, the Holmgren front office pressed in the third year of the 5 year plan and reached for Weeden. And yes, I also supported Weeden. However, since the FO changed it's become evident that Weeden isn't the answer at QB and his confidence has just demolished any possiblity of decent QB play... Or he just isnt smart enough to make quick reads. Shurmur was a crap hire, cant defend that at all. Either way, Holmgren & Heckert jump started the talent infusion into our roster and I dont blame him for standing behind his pick of Richardson, or anyone else for that matter._________________

Fair to say that after going 0-4 with QB's (Delhomme, Wallace, McCoy & Weeden) the game has passed the "QB guru" by.

Frankly, Holmgren as a GM was a bust from the get-go. Not only were his 24/7 executive hours here a joke (24 hours a week, 7 months a year) but he was a bust as a GM in Seattle - they didn't make it to the show until he was relieved of such duties and made to concentrate on coaching alone.

Glad he's gone, don't care what he says one way or another.

1. he wasnt gm
2. his regime built the foundation for the wins that we are seeing now...

Thank you Mistake, I think we are in the minority though. I truly believe Holmgren bringing in Heckert was the best thing the Browns have done since 1999. That was the foundation of the 5 year plan Holmgren sold us, but never got to complete (ironically next year we are supposed to be contenders, which is year 5).

People can hate on Holmgren all they want, but he knew his days were numbered in CLE before his staff got through a third draft. Yes I am defending the guy, the Holmgren front office pressed in the third year of the 5 year plan and reached for Weeden. And yes, I also supported Weeden. However, since the FO changed it's become evident that Weeden isn't the answer at QB and his confidence has just demolished any possiblity of decent QB play... Or he just isnt smart enough to make quick reads. Shurmur was a crap hire, cant defend that at all. Either way, Holmgren & Heckert jump started the talent infusion into our roster and I dont blame him for standing behind his pick of Richardson, or anyone else for that matter.

The hair-splitting by some in here to struggle to make a point never ceases to amaze me. Holmgren WAS a GM in Seattle (actually GM/ EVP/Coach initially), that's the GM I was referring to. And while he did bring in Heckert, whom I liked as a talent evaluator, when he overrides his GM to select McCoy and then later Weeden as was the conventional wisdom, those are fair moves for criticism. The gist of my post was Holmgrens failure to find a QB despite being the "guru" of such. You want to read more into that & nit-pick to make points, be my guest.

I think it is funny how quick you all have turned on Holmgren and Heckart. Yes thy whiffed on Richardson and Weeden, but if it were not for their drafting we would still be one of the 3 worst teams in the league. They brought in more talent than every other regime in new Browns history combined.

Haden, Ward, Skrine, Gipson, Robertson, Sheard, Taylor, Winn, Hughes, Kitchen, Bademosi, Gordon, Benjamin, Jordan, and Ogobanaya are pretty much the core of this team and all brought in by H&H.

So far only Hoyer, Campbell, Bryant and Mingo have been worth anything brought I by Banner. Then Rubin, Jackson and Thomas were all Sabage guys with Mack being the lone Mangini guy.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have been fired, but we should all be happy and grateful for everything positive they did do in 3 years. No regime on any team in the history of the league was perfect and many even have multiple picks that could be considered embarrassing. Shurmur was their biggest mistake and help everyone back from young players to vets to the FO.

Agreed and you could argue that the TRich and Weeden picks were an effort to win now and save their jobs. I'm sure they knew their jobs were in jeopardy when the ownership changed, a shame that 1st round ended up being a waste but at least the new FO managed to salvage the TRich selection.

yeah but if you look at what we could have selected in 2012... it doesn't look so good. Tannehill and... mercilus? maybe (we were 4-3) Harrison smith?

Yea that draft is looking pretty weak. I think I had a mock near the draft where I had the Browns going Mo Claiborne (who has been meh), Reilly Reif (also meh) and then Russell Wilson ( ). I still can't believe they didn't target Wilson in the second, even coming out everyone was saying he's a Jeff Garcia/Steve Young type who was a perfect fit for the WCO they were looking to run. Ce la vie..._________________

To be clear, I always liked Holmgren as a coach - the guy was a teacher early on and he clearly knew how to convey his offensive philosophies to not only Green Bay but then Seattle, and had success in both places.

But an exec he was not - he did not do well in that capacity in Seattle, and he didn't do well here. His best moves in Cleveland were bringing in Heckert and the DC. Shurmur as a coach was a fail and the QB's brought in were all ultimately fails (say what you want but his excitement over Delhomme was downright puzzling) That to me, missing on all signal callers, was the most disappointing given his reputation.

Few would say Heckerts picks were more miss than hit, so I'm not getting that point of the argument in this thread. But since Holmgren intervened with McCoys and Weedens selections (not sure if he did with the TR move-up or not) then those moves were on him, not Heckert.

It's much easier to defend Heckert than Holmgren. I can literally think of nothing of value that Holmgren did other than hire Heckert. Granted, that's an important piece of the puzzle, but overall, Holmgren was a general failure as a HMFIC.

- Every QB he brought in was a failure.
- Hired a marginal head coach. Interviewed, I think, 2 or 3 guys total. C'mon....
- By all reports, he overrode Heckert at all the wrong times (McCoy, Weeden, trading up for TRich).
- Many, many reports about him keeping banker's hours.
- Heavily involed the RG3 tradeup attempt and claimed cronyism when it failed (glad this one failed, btw).
- Spent more time talking to Seattle media than Cleveland media.

I have tons of respect for Holmgren the coach, but he was abysmal as the guy in charge of a front office. I give pretty much total credit to anything good that came from the regime to Heckert. Not Holmgren._________________Suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.It will happen some day. Not sure when.

Fair to say that after going 0-4 with QB's (Delhomme, Wallace, McCoy & Weeden) the game has passed the "QB guru" by.

Frankly, Holmgren as a GM was a bust from the get-go. Not only were his 24/7 executive hours here a joke (24 hours a week, 7 months a year) but he was a bust as a GM in Seattle - they didn't make it to the show until he was relieved of such duties and made to concentrate on coaching alone.

Glad he's gone, don't care what he says one way or another.

1. he wasnt gm
2. his regime built the foundation for the wins that we are seeing now...

Thank you Mistake, I think we are in the minority though. I truly believe Holmgren bringing in Heckert was the best thing the Browns have done since 1999. That was the foundation of the 5 year plan Holmgren sold us, but never got to complete (ironically next year we are supposed to be contenders, which is year 5).

People can hate on Holmgren all they want, but he knew his days were numbered in CLE before his staff got through a third draft. Yes I am defending the guy, the Holmgren front office pressed in the third year of the 5 year plan and reached for Weeden. And yes, I also supported Weeden. However, since the FO changed it's become evident that Weeden isn't the answer at QB and his confidence has just demolished any possiblity of decent QB play... Or he just isnt smart enough to make quick reads. Shurmur was a crap hire, cant defend that at all. Either way, Holmgren & Heckert jump started the talent infusion into our roster and I dont blame him for standing behind his pick of Richardson, or anyone else for that matter.

The hair-splitting by some in here to struggle to make a point never ceases to amaze me. Holmgren WAS a GM in Seattle (actually GM/ EVP/Coach initially), that's the GM I was referring to. And while he did bring in Heckert, whom I liked as a talent evaluator, when he overrides his GM to select McCoy and then later Weeden as was the conventional wisdom, those are fair moves for criticism. The gist of my post was Holmgrens failure to find a QB despite being the "guru" of such. You want to read more into that & nit-pick to make points, be my guest.

Don't be mad bro.

My post was more directed toward the 'Holmgren did nothing and stole money for 3 years' crowd. People are entitled to their own opinion, but calling Holmgren, or his time here, an overall failure is short sighted in my opinion. It sure looks like they reached for Weeden when they got burnt on the RGIII trade, Colt McCoy can take his moxy and shove it. If Luck or RGIII is here, I would imagine you would call Holmgren a QB guru messiah, but hindsight is always 20/20._________________