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Basically what Mas said. Had we not been so adiment about de baathification and held the Iraqi army together there probably would have been less bloodshed and greater balance of power. Its a case of forgetting history and not reliving it.

Basically what Mas said. Had we not been so adiment about de baathification and held the Iraqi army together there probably would have been less bloodshed and greater balance of power. Its a case of forgetting history and not reliving it.

really? was the Wehrmacht or Imperial Japanese Army/Navy held together or disbanded in 1945? You might have had less than 1000 of each helping on police duties but the Armies were disbanded en mass. its really been the historical practice when a nation is defeated and taken over. Why did it suddenly be so obvious about the Iraqi Army? did North Vietnam keep the ARVN around? Fidel keep Batistas guys in uniform? Surely the CSA's ANV was kept whole in 1865?

I personally don't know what the big deal is. Provided the people were not responsible for crimes, been pardoned or served their time.

I am agreeing with this (especially in bold). The same problem was at the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe. Of course in these situations people want new leaders (politically and in other fields), but you can not grow people over night and you definitely can not obtain specialists (for any field) in a short time.

After WWII, the Nazis leaders responsible for the criminal policies were trialled and the rest were given an effective pardon.

Might be news to the those new kids on the block, (kids born in the late 1990's) but this was well known about back in the 60's, even immediate post war the Allies realised it would be difficult, if not downright impossible to run Germany without employing former "nazis" in everything from the Civil service, Judicial offices, police, fire-brigade, military, health etc.. etc.. Connaught Ranger.

Especially well known in the 60's since it was the presence of those publicly well known Nazi's that convinced leftist groups they were still living in an authoritarian and fascist state and led to the formation of the Red Army Faction and the Baader-Meinhoff gang.

Some clarifications:,
The number of former Nazis was actually very high in post-war Germany state apparatus, the non-Nazi official was the exception, not the rule.
In foreign ministry or police services the number of former Nazis can safely be assumed to be way above majority(I can search for numbers if somebody wants, but they will be 60-80% for ministries).

Adenauer himself pardoned many thousands of war criminals and Nazi murderers.

As of January 31, 1951, the amnesty legislation had benefited 792,176 people. They included people with six-month sentences, but also about 35,000 people with sentences of up to one year who were released on parole. Frei specifies that these figures include a bit more than 3,000 functionaries of the SA, the SS, and the Nazi Party who participated in dragging victims to jails and camps; 20,000 other Nazi perpetrators sentenced for "deeds against life" (presumably murder); 30,000 sentenced for causing bodily injury, and about 5,200 charged with "crimes and misdemeanors in office."

The Nazis were essential part of Adenauer's government. And contrary to what was written here they were actually involved in many crimes.

Continuing his studies on rural population of Poland he noted in his works that "Poland has eight million inhabitants too many".

In the summer of 1937 Oberländer formulated a "divide and conquer" strategy for Poland.[2] Within Poland, ethnic groups were to be directed into fighting with each other in order to prepare ground for German rule.[2] The Poles were to be steered away from opposing Germans and guided into confrontation with Russians and Jews.[2] Oberländer additionally called for elimination of "assimiliated Jewry" which in his view carried "communist ideas".[2] Polish peasants were to be "taught" that they benefit from German "law".[2] In order to win over Poles for the side of German hegemony in Europe, Oberländer proposed that they share in theft of Jewish property.[2] Around 3,5 million Polish Jews and 1,5 million people who were considered "assimilated Jews" were to be deprived of all of their rights.[2] He is considered by some historians to be among the academics who laid the intellectual foundation for Final Solution.[4

Hans Kruger-another minister, was a Nazi judge in occupied Poland who sentenced numerous Poles to death.

Heinz Reinefarth- a man responsible for Wola Massacre in which tens of thousands of Poles(with up to 100.000 being highest estimate) were mass murdered, received a pension from West German government and was elected a mayor of a town by German people.

There are dozens, dozens, if not hundreds, or perhaps thousands of cases like this. West German government wasn't interested in sentencing former Nazis who committed atrocities against Poles. All attempts to put them on trial were denied.

During Cold War, it was easy for Germans to deny the truth, since they blamed it on "communist propaganda" and portrayed former Nazis as victims or decent people.

Unfortunately West Germany became a haven for Nazis, released war criminals and appointed people with territorial ambitions against Czech Republic and Poland as ministers.

It is a sad fact that taints the existence of German republic. Especially since it didn't deal with its Nazi past under Adenauer, atrocities against Central and Eastern Europe(Jewish genocide being noble exception), idolization of former nationalists and Nazis, and lack of compensation for victims.

Originally Posted by BogT

After WWII, the Nazis leaders responsible for the criminal policies were trialled and the rest were given an effective pardon.

This is incorrect. Most Nazis responsible for war crimes and atrocities were never put on trial. Only a couple of top figures were. And many were released in a couple of years. It can be truthfully said that Germany was never punished really for WW2.

What's news to me is that the role of ex-Nazis in post-WWII Germany (West Germany) is considered news.

Germany often paints itself as a country that dealt with its Nazi past and supposedly guided by morals. This is largely propaganda, since the founding and existence of West Germany was based on Nazis and abolishment of prison sentences for war criminals. Also while it paid compensation to Jewish victims, others like Poles, Belarussians, Roma were largely neglected. Had the compensations been paid, I think West German economic success story would be a bit...different.

Germany often paints itself as a country that dealt with its Nazi past and supposedly guided by morals. This is largely propaganda, since the founding and existence of West Germany was based on Nazis and abolishment of prison sentences for war criminals. Also while it paid compensation to Jewish victims, others like Poles, Belarussians, Roma were largely neglected. Had the compensations been paid, I think West German economic success story would be a bit...different.

JustBrowsing
"It can be truthfully said that Germany was never punished really for WW2. "

Now give me a break. 40+ years of division, loss of ~50% of territory (and were still missing half of Poland until today ^^) , mass killings and millions of dead from "resettlement" and deportations, planned starving of PoW's after the War.

If anything, as I already said before, one could have put more Nazi's on trial. But your above statement is crap. One could say that Germany is even "punished" today while all Nazis are dead or on the brink of dying.

Oh come on, it's pretty obvious the guy has a problem with Germany and modern Germans. From his latest posts:

Originally Posted by JustBrowsing

Stupid ad. As a European from Poland I would choose Turks or Chinese over European Germans any day

Originally Posted by JustBrowsing

Poland and Turkey are friendly to each other-it was one of the few nations never to recognise Partition of Poland unlike European Prussia (later Germany),Austria and Russia. Chinese thinkers expressed sympathy to Poland at the end of XIX century underlining the danger of sharing similar fate.
So the whole "European unity" propaganda is bollocks. Turkey despite being at war with Poland across the ages was never as inhuman as European Germany for example.

And the above is coming from a thread about an EU ad.. go figure. Don't feed the troll.

40 years of being sponsored by two world superpowers economically and politically. Not bad for trying to exterminate several nations. And it was a great act of mercy that allowed the German state which formed in 1871 to continue existence. Another option-restoring to states before 1871 was also possible.

loss of ~50% of territory

Germany never lost 50% of its territory, unless you count Nazi annexations after 1938 in Poland, Bohemia, Soviet Union. Or claim Austria is part of Germany. Which I think only are hardcore nationalist or Nazi would claim.

(and were still missing half of Poland until today ^^)

You miss occupying Polish territory and people?

mass killings

Only isolated incidents on small scale. Nothing similar to what Germany did. If Soviets and Poles were to be to Germans as Germans were to them, there would be no Germans today.

and millions of dead from "resettlement" and deportations

Actually 400,000 mostly dead from war time conditions(which wouldn't have happened if not for German war). Most of them btw Nazi voters and colonists. Hard to feel sorry for such people.

l

Planned starving of PoW's after the War.

Never happened. Only revisionist historians and nationalists do claim that. If you want to see real mistreatment of POWs look at what Germany did to Soviet POW's.

If anything, as I already said before, one could have put more Nazi's on trial.

One could have also:
-forced Germany to pay compensation which it didn't pay to Poland or Greece
-force Germany to return stolen art (for example Polish art plundered by Nazis is still held by Germany today)
-declare Wehrmacht to be an criminal organisation(as it was)
-not elect mass murderers to government posts(as German people did, see the Wola Massacre)
-not allow to elect people advocating genocide of Poles to ministerial posts(see Oberlander)
-not sponsor German economy for over 50 years

So as you see much more could have been done.

One could say that Germany is even "punished" today while all Nazis are dead or on the brink of dying

Since even today Germany didn't deal with its Nazi past completely I see nothing wrong with that. Especially since its economic well being is directly connected with being allowed to go away free from destroying much of Central and Eastern Europe.

Originally Posted by Steak-Sauce

Oh come on, it's pretty obvious the guy has a problem with Germany and modern Germans.

Considering the fact that Germany tried to exterminate Poles, to which I belong why shouldn't I? Especially since it awarded people participating in this with ministerial posts.