The premise of your argument is ridiculous. On the one hand you are quoting a bible verse that says that his descendants will be blessed and that God sent an angel, protected them, promised them success, etc...

On the other hand you have a narration stating they are wild asses. Sounds like the wonderful handy work of hateful Jews more so than God.

Funny that, you think the idea that Jews are God's chosen people is a must. They were chosen as per our own beliefs in Islam because they believed in God. Not based on race.

The idea here that's being defended and that our resident zionist jew (who hates blacks, arabs, muslims and christians) said oh yeee us heebs owning. Is just demonstrating that this is a racist religion or at least it turned into one.

What we believe in Islam is the same for Abraham as a messenger of God. In the qur'an Abraham prays for all his descendants to be believers and God answers him no, because everyone is free and there is no gaurantee how anyone turns out.

What the Jews ignore is the history of the Arabs and what Abraham did. What Abraham did with Ishmael and with Isaac teaching them about God. In Islam we believe Abraham visited Ishmael and that the kabaa was built by them both.

Before Islam the Arabs were following a few diffferent religions. Some were pagans, some were following Abraham's religion and they called towards one God and some were Christians. Amongst them lived Jews as well.

One of the prophecies of the old testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) is that he would be a prophet like unto moses, who will speak what God commands him to speak. Muhammad (pbuh) is far closer to this than Jesus (pbuh). Jesus did not bring new laws, he came to fulfill and obey them. Jesus did not have an army like Moses. Jesus did not have vast followers like Moses, Muhammad did. Etc...

If anything it is the Jews who have a problem. In fact one of the reasons that many Jews rejected accepting Islam and Muhammda (pbuh) was out of pride and arrogance. They recognized him as a prophet in the arab peninsula, but, they rejected him on the basis that he was not a Jew. This is fact, although many rabbis did become Muslim many did not out of racial pride.

Lastly, if anyone is to talk about terrorists. Samson was the original terrorist who suicided himself. Oh yes, I know the story. How he held the pillars and killed thousands and how his hair gave him strength, etc... etc...

In Islam we don't have this story. I looked after I became Muslim.

You don't have to rehearse the Koran, I just read front to back, I know exactly what it says, also my argument is not ridiculous as bigbobs and I just agreed that I established a motive.

Now as your argument about God blessing Ishmael is concerned is fine, I agree he was blessed however he gave Ishmael a house but he gave Israel a mansion, big difference there bro. As far as a prophesy of Muhammad is concerned in another thread I addressed why there is no prophesy and you completely ignored my post cause you did not have the goods for a rebuttal but here it is again for you....

I am fully aware of what you are referring to, in Hebrew some word in a prayer spells out Muhammad I know that but what I am saying is anyone can pick a prayer in the Psalms and and get a Hebrew word from that prayer then name their child that Hebrew word then claim "look the name of my Child is in the scripture" , you see what I am saying

and what is the verse of the description of Muhammad cause I am pretty sure it is a very vague description and you guy try to high jack the meaning.

Look you want a real prophesy, take Jesus as an example; 600+ prophetic verses and points, here is a few;

born in Bethlehamcalled a Nazereneborn of a virginfrom the tribe of Judahfrom the house of DavidChildren massacre after his birthcome out of Egyptmission would include the gentilesmiraculous healings performeddespised and rejected by menreject by his own brothersrejected by rulersBetrayed for 30 pieces of silverSilver used to buy fieldHis stripes and chastisementlike a lamb to the slaughterfeet and hands nailedvinegar to drinkno broken bonesgarments gambledburied in a rich man's tombback from the dead

Those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head, there are way more and that is what you call a prophesy not some Hebrew word mention in a prayer that some Muslim decided to name a man after that word 600 years later and some vague description that nearly a 1000 people could fall under.

Trust me when the Bible intends to prophesy something it does it multiple times and in grand fashion and bombards the issue over and over, thus is the way of the scripture regarding prophesy. I hate to burst your bubble but there is no intended prophesy of Muhammad, if there were we would have 100's of verses and multiple prophesies as is shown in all other prophesies.

You don't have to rehearse the Koran, I just read front to back, I know exactly what it says, also my argument is not ridiculous as bigbobs and I just agreed that I established a motive.

Now as your argument about God blessing Ishmael is concerned is fine, I agree he was blessed however he gave Ishmael a house but he gave Israel a mansion, big difference there bro. As far as a prophesy of Muhammad is concerned in another thread I addressed why there is no prophesy and you completely ignored my post cause you did not have the goods for a rebuttal but here it is again for you....

I am fully aware of what you are referring to, in Hebrew some word in a prayer spells out Muhammad I know that but what I am saying is anyone can pick a prayer in the Psalms and and get a Hebrew word from that prayer then name their child that Hebrew word then claim "look the name of my Child is in the scripture" , you see what I am saying

and what is the verse of the description of Muhammad cause I am pretty sure it is a very vague description and you guy try to high jack the meaning.

Look you want a real prophesy, take Jesus as an example; 600+ prophetic verses and points, here is a few;

born in Bethlehamcalled a Nazereneborn of a virginfrom the tribe of Judahfrom the house of DavidChildren massacre after his birthcome out of Egyptmission would include the gentilesmiraculous healings performeddespised and rejected by menreject by his own brothersrejected by rulersBetrayed for 30 pieces of silverSilver used to buy fieldHis stripes and chastisementlike a lamb to the slaughterfeet and hands nailedvinegar to drinkno broken bonesgarments gambledburied in a rich man's tombback from the dead

Those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head, there are way more and that is what you call a prophesy not some Hebrew word mention in a prayer that some Muslim decided to name a man after that word 600 years later and some vague description that nearly a 1000 people could fall under.

Trust me when the Bible intends to prophesy something it does it multiple times and in grand fashion and bombards the issue over and over, thus is the way of the scripture regarding prophesy. I hate to burst your bubble but there is no intended prophesy of Muhammad, if there were we would have 100's of verses and multiple prophesies as is shown in all other prophesies.

Psalm 2:2King James Version (KJV)2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed

Psalm 69:4King James Version (KJV)4 They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty

Psalm 41:9King James Version (KJV)9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Zechariah 11:12-13King James Version (KJV)12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Micah 5:1King James Version (KJV)5 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

Isaiah 50:6King James Version (KJV)6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Psalm 22:16King James Version (KJV)16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalm 22:7-8King James Version (KJV)7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Psalm 69:21King James Version (KJV)21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Psalm 22:14King James Version (KJV)14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Isaiah 53:4King James Version (KJV)4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:7King James Version (KJV)7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:12King James Version (KJV)12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Psalm 22:18King James Version (KJV)18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Exodus 12:46King James Version (KJV)46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.

Psalm 34:20King James Version (KJV)20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Zechariah 12:10King James Version (KJV)10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isaiah 53:9King James Version (KJV)9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:9King James Version (KJV)9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Psalm 68:18King James Version (KJV)18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalm 110:1King James Version (KJV)110 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

There are two possibilities regarding what was meant by Ishmael's descendants building a great nation:

a) Was referring to Prophet Muhammad b) Was not referring to Prophet Muhammad

If it's b) then the "argument' does not hold at all.

If it's a) then the "argument" can be made that the building of the great nation was blessed by God, since it is referred to as a "great nation" without any negative connotation attached to it.

You're picking a) but then saying that the great nation was a negative happening / fabricated religion, and your only reason for claiming so is that "the descentants of Ishmael must have been upset and in revenge-mode."

At this point, do you see how many "if's" and assumptions are needed in your "argument"? That's why its a logically weak "argument." (I put quotations around argument because I'm not even sure it qualifies as one due to how weak it is).

No idea what you are rambling on about onetimehard. We believe in Jesus (pbuh) just not the pauline Christianity version of it. We accept everything up to the point that Jesus himself did/thought. Not Paul. After all we continue the law of God, you denounce it by following Paul and the Romans. What you follow is desires and man made laws. We follow God and His law. Paul was a pharsees Jew who Jesus cursed and spoke ill of, called them liars, vile people, devil's own, etc... amongst other things.

Speaking of prophecy. Was Jesus like Moses, or was Muhammad more like Moses:

Analysis of Deuteronomy 18: 18

We read the following words addressed to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy Chapter 18: verse 18:

"I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee ; and I will put my words in his mouth." (Deuteronomy 18: 18)

“A prophet from among their brethren” means from the brethren of the Jews, meaning the Arabs. Abraham had two sons. His first born son was Ishmael (from whom the Arabs descend) and a his second born son is Isaac (from whom Jews descend).

“Like unto thee” means the expected prophet will be like Moses. Jesus is not like Moses, but Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is like Moses.

Comparison between Moses, Muhammad and Jesus (Peace be upon them)

“I will put my words in his mouth" describes perfectly how Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم received revelation of the exact words of God in the form of the verses of the Quran. Whereas the Gospel was inspired by God, but not the exact/literal word of God.

If this verse does not apply to Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم , the prophecy in this verse will be unfulfilled. Prophet Jesus himself never claimed to be the Prophet alluded to in this verse. Even his disciples were of the same opinion: they looked to the second coming of Jesus for the fulfillment of this prophecy (Acts 3: 17-24). So far it is undisputed that the first coming of Jesus was not the advent of this anticipated prophet and his second advent can hardly fulfill the prophecy. Jesus, as is believed by his Church, will appear as a Judge and not as a law-giver; but the promised one has to come with a "fiery law" in "his right hand."

Muhammad Asad (formerly known as Leopold Weiss), a Jewish scholar who converted to Islam said:

The 'brethren' of the children of Israel are obviously the Arabs, and particularly the Musta'ribah ('Arabianized') group among them, which traces its descent to Ishmael and Abraham: and since it is this group that the Arabian Prophet's own tribe, the Quraish, belonged, the above biblical passages must be taken as referring to his advent."

No idea what you are rambling on about onetimehard. We believe in Jesus (pbuh) just not the pauline Christianity version of it. We accept everything up to the point that Jesus himself did/thought. Not Paul. After all we continue the law of God, you denounce it by following Paul and the Romans. What you follow is desires and man made laws. We follow God and His law. Paul was a pharsees Jew who Jesus cursed and spoke ill of, called them liars, vile people, devil's own, etc... amongst other things.

Speaking of prophecy. Was Jesus like Moses, or was Muhammad more like Moses:

Analysis of Deuteronomy 18: 18

We read the following words addressed to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy Chapter 18: verse 18:

"I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee ; and I will put my words in his mouth." (Deuteronomy 18: 18)

“A prophet from among their brethren” means from the brethren of the Jews, meaning the Arabs. Abraham had two sons. His first born son was Ishmael (from whom the Arabs descend) and a his second born son is Isaac (from whom Jews descend).

“Like unto thee” means the expected prophet will be like Moses. Jesus is not like Moses, but Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is like Moses.

Comparison between Moses, Muhammad and Jesus (Peace be upon them)

“I will put my words in his mouth" describes perfectly how Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم received revelation of the exact words of God in the form of the verses of the Quran. Whereas the Gospel was inspired by God, but not the exact/literal word of God.

If this verse does not apply to Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم , the prophecy in this verse will be unfulfilled. Prophet Jesus himself never claimed to be the Prophet alluded to in this verse. Even his disciples were of the same opinion: they looked to the second coming of Jesus for the fulfillment of this prophecy (Acts 3: 17-24). So far it is undisputed that the first coming of Jesus was not the advent of this anticipated prophet and his second advent can hardly fulfill the prophecy. Jesus, as is believed by his Church, will appear as a Judge and not as a law-giver; but the promised one has to come with a "fiery law" in "his right hand."

Muhammad Asad (formerly known as Leopold Weiss), a Jewish scholar who converted to Islam said:

The 'brethren' of the children of Israel are obviously the Arabs, and particularly the Musta'ribah ('Arabianized') group among them, which traces its descent to Ishmael and Abraham: and since it is this group that the Arabian Prophet's own tribe, the Quraish, belonged, the above biblical passages must be taken as referring to his advent."

Paul was a Pharisees. Jesus cursed the Pharisees repeatedly throughout NT. Liars, thieves, greedy, cursed, against God, etc... Just a small fact.

In one verse Jesus condemns them to hell too, calls them hypocrites many times.

Paul writing in his own letters that are now included in the bible's new testament show how he even boasts about being 'clever' at tricking people, proves in his own writings to be a hypocrite. Etc...

Paul did not live with Jesus, nor knew Jesus. He CLAIMED he 'witnessed' Jesus in his three accounts. All three of which are not equal, each time changing his accounts. A trait of a liar and a fraud.

Paul was an oppressor and bounty hunter of Jesus' followers. He was a Pharisees Jew at the service of the Romans.

How convenient that he does away with the Jews and the law of God, something the Romans tried to do for ages.

He called against what Jesus thought and preached and brought something new, hence the disciples of Jesus rejected him and never actually accepted him. They were suspicious of his intents and knew him as a fraud.

Paul was a Pharisees. Jesus cursed the Pharisees repeatedly throughout NT. Liars, thieves, greedy, cursed, against God, etc... Just a small fact.

In one verse Jesus condemns them to hell too, calls them hypocrites many times.

Paul writing in his own letters that are now included in the bible's new testament show how he even boasts about being 'clever' at tricking people, proves in his own writings to be a hypocrite. Etc...

Paul did not live with Jesus, nor knew Jesus. He CLAIMED he 'witnessed' Jesus in his three accounts. All three of which are not equal, each time changing his accounts. A trait of a liar and a fraud.

Paul was an oppressor and bounty hunter of Jesus' followers. He was a Pharisees Jew at the service of the Romans.

How convenient that he does away with the Jews and the law of God, something the Romans tried to do for ages.

He called against what Jesus thought and preached and brought something new, hence the disciples of Jesus rejected him and never actually accepted him. They were suspicious of his intents and knew him as a fraud.

There are two possibilities regarding what was meant by Ishmael's descendants building a great nation:

a) Was referring to Prophet Muhammad b) Was not referring to Prophet Muhammad

If it's b) then the "argument' does not hold at all.

If it's a) then the "argument" can be made that the building of the great nation was blessed by God, since it is referred to as a "great nation" without any negative connotation attached to it.

You're picking a) but then saying that the great nation was a negative happening / fabricated religion, and your only reason for claiming so is that "the descentants of Ishmael must have been upset and in revenge-mode."

At this point, do you see how many "if's" and assumptions are needed in your "argument"? That's why its a logically weak "argument." (I put quotations around argument because I'm not even sure it qualifies as one due to how weak it is).

Then why is it that you only have one verse which you're using in your "argument" to suggest a) above, and using assumptions to imply that the "great nation" is even something negative.

NO NO NO brother, there is more then 1 verse, I believe there is 3 or 4 verses regarding Ishmael. I only used 1, so what? I also only used 1 when I said the children of Israel are Gods chosen people and there are 100s. In your first paragragh you said nothing, you keep repeating yourself that the arguments weak, Is that all you have to say on that matter. You already agreed that Arabs had a motive for starting a religion, what you wrote can never be taken back, here is what you wrote admitting Arabs had a motive for starting Islam, that is half the argument.

And again, even pointing out a motive (regardless of how weak it is, in my opinion its weak, in yours its not) is not enough. It would be like saying "We know Y murdered her husband X because she was upset that he cheated on her." That would not hold up in court without much stronger evidence.

The underline is a quote from bigbobs admitting the descendants of Ishmael had a motive for starting Islam

lol so tell me why did God chose the descendants of Israel? Their race? And chosen for all time?

You're not trying to ascertain any sort of truth in any matter you are just trying to reverberate your own hate of Muslims and hate of Arabs.

The fact is countless Christian Arabs exist, countless Christian Arabs became Muslim, countless Jews became Muslim. You are just sounding silly.

You are also bypassing what I just posted about the brethren of the Jews and the prophecy of "that prophet". When John the baptist was inquired on about Elias, Christ or "that prophet".

The similarities between Moses and Muhammad are far greater than the countless differences between Jesus and Moses.

Even so if you are arguing for the descendants of Israel. How is it that you are not then following in their footsteps by following God's law? Or how about the fact that if they are God's 'chosen people' Paul went out and about against Jesus' own accord that he only came to the children of Israel. Paul went out to those 'not chosen'.

Quite alot of contradictions. To me it seems you are picking and chosing your 'chosen people' and how you relate to them.

If anything, Muslims recognize the history, the religion, the prophets, God's law, etc... The Jews have anger and pride in their racial superiority. You have anger towards Muslims and Arabs (as do the Jews). So the premise of your argument of someone being 'jealous' it would seem you and the Jews are 'jealous'.

It makes me laugh how upset Muslims get when one of their own learns the truth and turns it's back on the Religion of HATE! It exposes Muslims for what they are, brainwashed indoctrinated repeaters without an ounce of credibility or the ability to think for themselves. Muslims must have the worst childhoods on the planet to end up such spiteful, hate filled violent adults. Good thing they are semi literate cave dwelling barbarians that haven't got the intelligence or the know how to build a decent civilisation with the muscle power to back up their sick twisted rhetoric. How many Muslims in the past decade you say the West has dealt with so far, a million! That's 1 Million less whackjobs stealing oxygen from decent folk! Good Riddance and may the removal of Islam move along at such a wonderful pace!

lol so tell me why did God chose the descendants of Israel? Their race? And chosen for all time?

You're not trying to ascertain any sort of truth in any matter you are just trying to reverberate your own hate of Muslims and hate of Arabs.

The fact is countless Christian Arabs exist, countless Christian Arabs became Muslim, countless Jews became Muslim. You are just sounding silly.

You are also bypassing what I just posted about the brethren of the Jews and the prophecy of "that prophet". When John the baptist was inquired on about Elias, Christ or "that prophet".

The similarities between Moses and Muhammad are far greater than the countless differences between Jesus and Moses.

Even so if you are arguing for the descendants of Israel. How is it that you are not then following in their footsteps by following God's law? Or how about the fact that if they are God's 'chosen people' Paul went out and about against Jesus' own accord that he only came to the children of Israel. Paul went out to those 'not chosen'.

Quite alot of contradictions. To me it seems you are picking and chosing your 'chosen people' and how you relate to them.

If anything, Muslims recognize the history, the religion, the prophets, God's law, etc... The Jews have anger and pride in their racial superiority. You have anger towards Muslims and Arabs (as do the Jews). So the premise of your argument of someone being 'jealous' it would seem you and the Jews are 'jealous'.

Islam is a religion for all mankind, not racist.

When did I say I hate Muslims or hate Arabs? That is the emotional response you came up with cause you can not handle the truth, I love Arabs and I love there culture bro, historically there are no greater race in terms of what fascinates me, so stop melting down all over the place bro, control yourself, it is OK to lose an argument once in a while, lol, I hate Arabs, ha your funny. The truth is the truth bro

Paul was a Pharisees. Jesus cursed the Pharisees repeatedly throughout NT. Liars, thieves, greedy, cursed, against God, etc... Just a small fact.

In one verse Jesus condemns them to hell too, calls them hypocrites many times.

Paul writing in his own letters that are now included in the bible's new testament show how he even boasts about being 'clever' at tricking people, proves in his own writings to be a hypocrite. Etc...

Paul did not live with Jesus, nor knew Jesus. He CLAIMED he 'witnessed' Jesus in his three accounts. All three of which are not equal, each time changing his accounts. A trait of a liar and a fraud.

Paul was an oppressor and bounty hunter of Jesus' followers. He was a Pharisees Jew at the service of the Romans.

How convenient that he does away with the Jews and the law of God, something the Romans tried to do for ages.

He called against what Jesus thought and preached and brought something new, hence the disciples of Jesus rejected him and never actually accepted him. They were suspicious of his intents and knew him as a fraud.

NO NO NO brother, there is more then 1 verse, I believe there is 3 or 4 verses regarding Ishmael. I only used 1, so what? I also only used 1 when I said the children of Israel are Gods chosen people and there are 100s. In your first paragragh you said nothing, you keep repeating yourself that the arguments weak, Is that all you have to say on that matter. You already agreed that Arabs had a motive for starting a religion, what you wrote can never be taken back, here is what you wrote admitting Arabs had a motive for starting Islam, that is half the argument.

And again, even pointing out a motive (regardless of how weak it is, in my opinion its weak, in yours its not) is not enough. It would be like saying "We know Y murdered her husband X because she was upset that he cheated on her." That would not hold up in court without much stronger evidence.

The underline is a quote from bigbobs admitting the descendants of Ishmael had a motive for starting Islam

You underlined my quote as though there was something extraordinary in there. You saying I said that you "established a motive" alone is misleading and inaccurate because I clearly indicated in the same sentence that it's a weak motive. Even if it were a strong motive it would still be a weak argument - again you ignored the judge/murder case example I gave to show this.

You underlined my quote as though there was something extraordinary in there. You saying I said that you "established a motive" alone is misleading and inaccurate because I clearly indicated in the same sentence that it's a weak motive. Even if it were a strong motive it would still be a weak argument - again you ignored the judge/murder case example I gave to show this.

What else is there to say when confronted with a weak argument other than "that's a weak argument"

You must have missed an entire post of mine I am sure cause I address the example you gave me and now you are saying I ignored it

OK OK I will correct myself then. Bigbobs did not say there was a motive fellas he said there was a weak motive

You must have missed an entire post of mine I am sure cause I address the example you gave me and now you are saying I ignored it

OK OK I will correct myself then. Bigbobs did not say there was a motive fellas he said there was a weak motive

Means, motive and opportunity is what I see...at least at first blush.

Regardless, in these threads I often find that 2+2=4 in some cases and in other random cases 2+2=donkey or 2+2=1000 or 2+2=fart....whatever is needed to make the argument.

I don't know, but I always go back to my grandfather in these circumstances: "Boy, if it looks like poop, feels like poop, smells like poop and tastes like poop best bet is that you've got poop." FYI ~ my grandfather didn't use the word "poop"....further, he was probably blowin a snot rocket while saying this too.

Means, motive and opportunity is what I see...at least at first blush.

Regardless, in these threads I often find that 2+2=4 in some cases and in other random cases 2+2=donkey or 2+2=1000 or 2+2=fart....whatever is needed to make the argument.

I don't know, but I always go back to my grandfather in these circumstances: "Boy, if it looks like poop, feels like poop, smells like poop and tastes like poop best bet is that you've got poop." FYI ~ my grandfather didn't use the word "poop"....further, he was probably blowin a snot rocket while saying this too.

I think if the poop was in their hands they would still not believe it was poop

The Motive was there for the Arabs to introduce Islam to the world and they would have probably not included Jesus in the Koran but to many Arabs already believed in Jesus and Jesus was an enemy of Judaism at this point so it made more sense for Muslims to incorporate Jesus in the Koran. So they did so in a clever way neglecting the resurrection and the crucifixion.

The resentment and jealousy is clear; you see the Scriptures says God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but the Koran has to change the scripture to include their own people in Gods plan so the Koran says The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ishmael.

They have to try and feel important but they can not accept that they are just normal people not Gods chosen, hey do not feel bad guys I am not an Israelite either

I think if the poop was in their hands they would still not believe it was poop

The Motive was there for the Arabs to introduce Islam to the world and they would have probably not included Jesus in the Koran but to many Arabs already believed in Jesus and Jesus was an enemy of Judaism at this point so it made more sense for Muslims to incorporate Jesus in the Koran. So they did so in a clever way neglecting the resurrection and the crucifixion.

The resentment and jealousy is clear; you see the Scriptures says God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but the Koran has to change the scripture to include their own people in Gods plan so the Koran says The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ishmael.

They have to try and feel important but they can not accept that they are just normal people not Gods chosen, hey do not feel bad guys I am not an Israelite either

I have no doubt that the inclusion of "Jesus the Prophet" into the Islamic faith was a last resort because he simply couldn't be reduced to myth and then dismissed, but if he could've been eliminated from history or fully demonized he would've been. Admittedly, the "plan b" tactic to demonize Paul was a great strategy.

What a bunch of non-sense Jesus is mentioned 25 times and Muhammad is mentioned 4 times in the qur'an.

If it was from a man, Muhammad would be talking about himself, his wives, his family etc..

Clearly the NT is composed of Paul's writings, hence he keeps talking about himself like a ranting luantic Always on the defensive! Accept me! This church listen to me. That church listen to me. Disciples listen to me. I condem this church, I condemn that disciple. Of course none of Jesus' actual disciples ever accepted Paul

The qur'an speaks barely about Muhammad (pbub).

Ever wonder that maybe you are in the wrong, and just arrogant and haughty in rejecting the message of God? For some worldly gain or desires you have in you stopping you from accepting Islam? Just as some of the Jews refused to accept Muhammad because he was not a Jew. Real true envy and jealousy. Not because they did not recognize him as a prophet but because they didn't want to accept a non jew (racist).

Or certain priests that earn so much money for being priests. They may recognize that what they are teaching are lies, but they are too comfortable in commanding so many people and making wealth so they would not accept Islam to lose their power and wealth.

Ever wonder that since there is only one God Almighty, we say that we believe in one God and hence all the same prophets of the past are a must in our belief.

Paul didn't know Jesus. He never met Jesus. He never lived with Jesus. He preached contrary to Jesus' own teachings and brought totally new and foreign pagan things. The disciples of Jesus rejected him. He spent his petty life arguing trying to sway people into his personal 'gospel'

Means, motive and opportunity is what I see...at least at first blush.

Regardless, in these threads I often find that 2+2=4 in some cases and in other random cases 2+2=donkey or 2+2=1000 or 2+2=fart....whatever is needed to make the argument.

I don't know, but I always go back to my grandfather in these circumstances: "Boy, if it looks like poop, feels like poop, smells like poop and tastes like poop best bet is that you've got poop." FYI ~ my grandfather didn't use the word "poop"....further, he was probably blowin a snot rocket while saying this too.

I agree with the bold text, that's why I view Jesus as a prophet and not God or the same entity as God, because if he says he says he is sent by God, prays to God, says his teachings are not from himself but from God, says he is not all-knowing or capable of doing anything (John 5:19), does nothing of himself but only as the father taught him (John 8:28), that he is the son of man, etc he must not be the same entity as God!

Matt 21:10-11 Who is this?" So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee."

Matthew 16:13-14: “When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.“Note that none of them said that Jesus is God.

Luke 7:16 “Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, "A great prophet has risen up among us"; and, "God has visited His people.Note that they knew God as a separate identity and Jesus as a great prophet.

In Luke 24:19 Peter is recorded saying “And He said to them, "What things?" So they said to Him, "The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people So according to this verse people knew Jesus as a prophet

John 6:14 “Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world." Again people considered Jesus a prophet, not a god

Matt 14:5 “ they counted him as a prophet.”

Matt 21:46 “ they took Him for a prophet.”

Matt 14:5 and 21:46 people around Jesus considered him a prophet.

Matt 13:57 Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.“ About whom was Jesus talking? He, according to this verse, is referring to himself as a prophet

John 7:40-41 “Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, "Truly this is the Prophet." V.41 Others said, "This is the Christ." In no single verse did Jesus corrected people’s opinion saying “ No, I am not a prophet, I am a god or a part of trinity “

Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed the crowd saying: “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.” (Acts 2:22). Peter, one of the closest disciples to Jesus, affirms that Jesus was just a man whom God supported by miracles and signs.

For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God. Peter said: “God raised up his servant...” (Acts 3:26). Once more, Jesus stresses that Jesus was nothing more than a servant who worshipped God.

It is clear that Peter was interested in proving to people that Jesus was no more than a servant.

All of the disciples of Jesus held this view. In Acts 4:24 we are told that the believers prayed to God saying:“...they raised their voices together in prayer to God. ‘Sovereign Lord,’ they said, ‘you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.’”

It is clear that the one they were praying to was not Jesus, because, two verses later, they referred to Jesus as “...your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.” (Acts 4:27).: “Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.” (Acts 5:42)

In fact there is no single verse that shows that Jesus is a god or a part of trinity, in the same time, as shown, there are several verses that stress the fact that Jesus is just a prophet

Ahmed is sooooooooooooooooo out to launch, this thread is tearing him apart so much that he has to change the subject, Paul?

Why is every thread you are in always ends up being about Paul, MOS how do you have the patients of dealing with this, this guy is always luring you into his Paul argument in every single thread.

I started this thread and I did not even mention Paul, so get over you pathetic obsession with Paul and stick to the thread since you have contributed nothing to this thread, unlike bigbobs who has brought some valid points up here.

If you do not want to then go to another thread and discuss your silly theories on Paul. This thread is about the sons of Ishmael beginning and spreading a knew religion for the sake of the Arabs, so stay on topic or go else where.

I didn't know that when I spoke about Jesus the prophet above that I was talking about Paul?

I already addressed your original posts, I even posted a little study scan of a book. You ignored that.

You are delusional and I don't know what you are arguing for yourself anymore. You think Islam is evil and of the devil (yet oh yeah you dont hate muslims and dont hate arabs), but then at the same time trying to 'prove' something about Jews, who by the way proudly slander Mary and Jesus in the talmud. Then you want people to believe that Jesus is actually God.

You are the one that's... what shall I say? Confused?

Your whole 'argument' has little to no basis.

Abraham was not a Jew, his two sons were not Jews. From Isaac's descendant Jacob later renamed Israel come the Jews. Twelve sons. They had many blessings from God, were chosen because they believed, were cursed and punished by God for being constnatly haughty. Had many prophets sent to them but were constantly haughty. Jesus came to them from themselves and they rejected him too. In the end they became a race based religion, the message of God was 'solely' for themselves' and their 'special race'. They perverted God's ways and had no faith and only laws. JEsus came to set them straight. They rejected him. Then comes Paul and he perverts what Jesus even said or thought and starts a whole new religion mixed with paganism

From Ishmael come the Arabs. What religion did they follow? The religion of Abraham. And as Muslims we believe that too. However the arabs strayed, they became pagans, some became christians. Then Muhammad (pbuh) came and his message was for all mankind.