News:

Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

I am aware that the BOC received its "apostolic succession" from the Syriac Orthodox Church in the 19th century. Yet upon joining the Oriental Orthodox communion canonically, you all went under the Copts. I am wondering, if you maintain a Syriac style traditional, why you joined the Copts? Have you had to/wanted to change anything to match them closer, or are you left autonomous?

By the time I came into contact with what was then called the Orthodox Church of the British Isles in about 1988 it was not really Syran in ethos. The senior bishop was Mar Seraphim and the clergy wore some Syrian vestments. The link with Syria had been severed a century before under pressure from the Anglican Church which was very active in the Middle East.

I met regularly with Mar Seraphim and was impressed by his genuine desire to maintain an Orthodox faith even among his isolated communities. There was a document published some years before I first met the OCBI called the Glastonbury Confession and I am still impressed by its patristic foundations and Orthodox content. I had no doubt that the OCBI was Orthodox.

Nevertheless it was isolated and at the time I was seeking for Orthodoxy and did not want to be joining a completely different tradition to the Evangelicalism I had grown up and been active in as well as having to be isolated from a wider communion of Christians.

In the years before I was received I continued to meet with Mar Seraphim. He always had a desire to be reunited with the wider Orthodox communion, not to make him important but because it was where he knew the flock under his care should be. I know that he would have been received even as a priest rather than a bishop if this was required for the welfare of his people.

As it was he developed good relations with some of the Copts in the UK. These helped make an introduction to the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate possible. Part of the process was that he wanted to regularise the life of the OCBI. So they stopped using their own liturgy and started using an ancient and Apostolic one, that of St James. There were other things that took place, all designed to tighten up the Orthodox praxis.

The discussions with the Coptic Orthodox seemed to go very well - as far as could see. And at Pentecost 1994 in Cairo, Mar Seraphim became Metropolitan Seraphim and the OCBI became the British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. A week or so later I was baptised and chrismated.

Certainly some of the Syrian Orthodox in the 19th century had a great vision, not for expanding the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate, but for genuinely sharing the Orthodox faith with the West.

Equally at the end of the 20th century the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate has been imaginative enough to receive a French church some 30 years ago into union, and now thr British Orthodox Church.

At present we use the Liturgy of St James, together with the rites of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate for all other services and sacraments. Yet we are neither Syrian nor Coptic. We are British Orthodox. Living the Orthodox tradition, received most directly from the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate in a British environment and context.

So:

We use a different liturgyWe use a modified Western calendar for the fixed feastsWe sing some good, theological hymns from the ancient Western Orthodox traiditionWe venerate our own British saints as well as those of the universal and Coptic ChurchWe use a different and British chant and in time, God willing, this will be more musicalWe celebrate the services in English

I know that we love being part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. It has been a complete blessing. But we are committed to evangelism and mission among our fellow British citizens. If we do not evangelise then we will not grow, and we must evangelise in a British context.

We are not an autonomous Church but the very protocol of union made clear that Pope Shenouda expected and required that we maintain our British ethnicity. he did not want is pretending to be Egyptians.

In my own mission the service is not obviously Coptic. It is certainly liturgical but a visitor would not immediately think we were trying to be 'Eastern'. We have an iconostasis with a growing number of icons painted in the modern Coptic style. Many Western people actually find these more approachable than some other traditions. So we are obviously Orthodox but not obviously Coptic, let alone Egyptian.

But as far as our faith goes we are entirely in accord with the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate.

For myself I find it a constant pleasure interacting with Orthodox folk around the world, especially as I meet more and more young people with a serious faith and an earnest desire for the union of all the holy Churches of God based on truth and the fulness of the faith.

The BOC has tried to give something back to the wider community and I have published a couple of books. The most useful is 'The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined' by Fr V.C. amuel of blessed memory. This book really helped me and I was disappointed that it was almost impossible to get hold of so when I was given permission to re-publish it I was very pleased. It took me a long while but it has been available at Amazon etc for a couple of years now. We have also republished the Conferences of St John Cassian, which I love. And have plans for other works.

We publish the Glastonbury Review 2 or 3 times a year and this has good articles in it, some of which I have written. And you know that we also maintain www.orthodoxunity.org and a number of discussion lists.

As a personal interest I also maintain www.celticorthodoxy.org and I am studying for an M.A in Celtic Christianity - the Orthodox Christianity that is of the early British christians.

Our biggest concerns are to do with mission and evangelism I think. All of our missions and parishes need to grow and keep growing. I am organising a Family, and Friends weekend next year at a residential centre that will be an opportunity for us to enjoy fellowship together - which is also difficult for us - and will be a means of some gentle evangelism for our contacts and families who are not all Orthodox.

We are also currently producing a booklet Introducing Orthodoxy, in our context of course and for us to use in evangelism. I have so many plans and ideas but its all down to time and God making things possible.

This is just a bit about the BOC. I'm sure I'll mention more as appropriate.

By the time I came into contact with what was then called the Orthodox Church of the British Isles in about 1988 it was not really Syran in ethos. The senior bishop was Mar Seraphim and the clergy wore some Syrian vestments. The link with Syria had been severed a century before under pressure from the Anglican Church which was very active in the Middle East.

I met regularly with Mar Seraphim and was impressed by his genuine desire to maintain an Orthodox faith even among his isolated communities. There was a document published some years before I first met the OCBI called the Glastonbury Confession and I am still impressed by its patristic foundations and Orthodox content. I had no doubt that the OCBI was Orthodox.

Nevertheless it was isolated and at the time I was seeking for Orthodoxy and did not want to be joining a completely different tradition to the Evangelicalism I had grown up and been active in as well as having to be isolated from a wider communion of Christians.

In the years before I was received I continued to meet with Mar Seraphim. He always had a desire to be reunited with the wider Orthodox communion, not to make him important but because it was where he knew the flock under his care should be. I know that he would have been received even as a priest rather than a bishop if this was required for the welfare of his people.

As it was he developed good relations with some of the Copts in the UK. These helped make an introduction to the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate possible. Part of the process was that he wanted to regularise the life of the OCBI. So they stopped using their own liturgy and started using an ancient and Apostolic one, that of St James. There were other things that took place, all designed to tighten up the Orthodox praxis.

The discussions with the Coptic Orthodox seemed to go very well - as far as could see. And at Pentecost 1994 in Cairo, Mar Seraphim became Metropolitan Seraphim and the OCBI became the British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. A week or so later I was baptised and chrismated.

Certainly some of the Syrian Orthodox in the 19th century had a great vision, not for expanding the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate, but for genuinely sharing the Orthodox faith with the West.

Equally at the end of the 20th century the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate has been imaginative enough to receive a French church some 30 years ago into union, and now thr British Orthodox Church.

At present we use the Liturgy of St James, together with the rites of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate for all other services and sacraments. Yet we are neither Syrian nor Coptic. We are British Orthodox. Living the Orthodox tradition, received most directly from the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate in a British environment and context.

So:

We use a different liturgyWe use a modified Western calendar for the fixed feastsWe sing some good, theological hymns from the ancient Western Orthodox traiditionWe venerate our own British saints as well as those of the universal and Coptic ChurchWe use a different and British chant and in time, God willing, this will be more musicalWe celebrate the services in English

I know that we love being part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. It has been a complete blessing. But we are committed to evangelism and mission among our fellow British citizens. If we do not evangelise then we will not grow, and we must evangelise in a British context.

We are not an autonomous Church but the very protocol of union made clear that Pope Shenouda expected and required that we maintain our British ethnicity. he did not want is pretending to be Egyptians.

In my own mission the service is not obviously Coptic. It is certainly liturgical but a visitor would not immediately think we were trying to be 'Eastern'. We have an iconostasis with a growing number of icons painted in the modern Coptic style. Many Western people actually find these more approachable than some other traditions. So we are obviously Orthodox but not obviously Coptic, let alone Egyptian.

But as far as our faith goes we are entirely in accord with the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate.

For myself I find it a constant pleasure interacting with Orthodox folk around the world, especially as I meet more and more young people with a serious faith and an earnest desire for the union of all the holy Churches of God based on truth and the fulness of the faith.

The BOC has tried to give something back to the wider community and I have published a couple of books. The most useful is 'The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined' by Fr V.C. amuel of blessed memory. This book really helped me and I was disappointed that it was almost impossible to get hold of so when I was given permission to re-publish it I was very pleased. It took me a long while but it has been available at Amazon etc for a couple of years now. We have also republished the Conferences of St John Cassian, which I love. And have plans for other works.

We publish the Glastonbury Review 2 or 3 times a year and this has good articles in it, some of which I have written. And you know that we also maintain www.orthodoxunity.org and a number of discussion lists.

As a personal interest I also maintain www.celticorthodoxy.org and I am studying for an M.A in Celtic Christianity - the Orthodox Christianity that is of the early British christians.

Our biggest concerns are to do with mission and evangelism I think. All of our missions and parishes need to grow and keep growing. I am organising a Family, and Friends weekend next year at a residential centre that will be an opportunity for us to enjoy fellowship together - which is also difficult for us - and will be a means of some gentle evangelism for our contacts and families who are not all Orthodox.

We are also currently producing a booklet Introducing Orthodoxy, in our context of course and for us to use in evangelism. I have so many plans and ideas but its all down to time and God making things possible.

This is just a bit about the BOC. I'm sure I'll mention more as appropriate.

Best wishes

Peter Theodore

Hello Peter,I'm new to this board also and I am finding the discussions amongst the Orthodox brothers and sisters interesting. I have a lot to learn about the Eastern half of the Church. I'm Catholic and have hade no direct exposure to Orthodox Christianity as here in the states the Orthodox are usually limit themselves to their own ethnic communities. I was asking about the seeming lack of evangelization from the Eastern Church after the Great schism and have been given some very kind explainations for why there has not been much evangelization from the Orthodox to the rest of the world untill recent times. Your post raises a question as it sounds very familiar to the tone protestants take regarding evangelization. Do you consider practicing Christians whether Catholic, Angligan,Protestant or other Eastern Christians as persons that you feel you need to evangelize? Or are you refering to "unchurched" non-practicing people?

I understand Orthodoxy not as an institution, or a theological party, or a religious clique, but as the fulness of the Gospel - good news!

I want everybody to embrace this good news in its completeness.

On one level it is not my business to 'convert' people, it is my duty to bear witness, set an example, explain, educate. It is God's business to change hearts by His Holy Spirit.

So when I am engaged in evangelism I want to see people making steps towards the fulness of the Gospel. It's wonderful when they embrace all of the good news, and exciting when my own community grows in numbers, but if I just see a few more aspects of the truth understood and experienced then I rejoice.

When I know that my friends who are Protestants don't know the great strength found in the sacraments how can I just leave them in ignorance. If they don't know how to call on the saints to intercede for them, how can I leave them to struggle without their aid. If they do not know how the Church is rightly ordered for our salvation so that it is shepherded by bishops and priests in a holy Apostolic succession, how can I count it as nothing.

So I desire all folk, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Atheist, Agnostic, and Orthodox as well, to grow in the knowledge of the truth.

If they never visit my community but are touched by God in some way then I'm happy.

But Orthodoxy, the fulness of the Gospel, is not negotiable. The rejection of sacraments, priesthood, saints, the Virgin Mary, the Scriptures etc etc these are not optional extras but deform and damage our very salvation.

So in answer to your question, I regard all people - Orthodox as well - as being the objects of evangelisation - the spreading of the good news. Because we all need to be converted, we all need to ask the question day by day - What must I do to be saved? I know I do.

I understand Orthodoxy not as an institution, or a theological party, or a religious clique, but as the fulness of the Gospel - good news!

I want everybody to embrace this good news in its completeness. Amen to that!

On one level it is not my business to 'convert' people, it is my duty to bear witness, set an example, explain, educate. It is God's business to change hearts by His Holy Spirit.

So when I am engaged in evangelism I want to see people making steps towards the fulness of the Gospel. It's wonderful when they embrace all of the good news, and exciting when my own community grows in numbers, but if I just see a few more aspects of the truth understood and experienced then I rejoice.

When I know that my friends who are Protestants don't know the great strength found in the sacraments how can I just leave them in ignorance. If they don't know how to call on the saints to intercede for them, how can I leave them to struggle without their aid. If they do not know how the Church is rightly ordered for our salvation so that it is shepherded by bishops and priests in a holy Apostolic succession, how can I count it as nothing. Again amen to that.

So I desire all folk, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Atheist, Agnostic, and Orthodox as well, to grow in the knowledge of the truth. Again agreement here.

If they never visit my community but are touched by God in some way then I'm happy.

But Orthodoxy, the fulness of the Gospel, is not negotiable. The rejection of sacraments, priesthood, saints, the Virgin Mary, the Scriptures etc etc these are not optional extras but deform and damage our very salvation. agreed.

So in answer to your question, I regard all people - Orthodox as well - as being the objects of evangelisation - the spreading of the good news. Because we all need to be converted, we all need to ask the question day by day - What must I do to be saved? I know I do.

Ok that is fair. But what about Church unity? How can we fufill the great commission without the visible unity that The Church was established with and which Jesus prayed for? Don't we need to acknowelege eachother's communities and indeed reunite as One Holy Catholic and apostolic Church? How can we do that if we feel we need to evangelize eachother? By saying all practicing Christians are objects of evangelization one is saying their community isn't good enough as compared to your's or mine etc. I understand the idea of presenting the fullenss of the faith to Protestant Christians because they have been robbed of the fulness of the faith but other Orthodox and Catholics?Peace,Polycarp

Well we all need evangelising. Evangelism is not the same as proselytism. Proselytism seeks to get people to join 'my group' at any cost, evangelism wants people to know God better, in God's way and in God's time.

Church unity is very important to evangelism at many levels. But when I am talking about the faith with a colleague at work who knows little about Orthodoxy except that which I have told him then the larger questions of Church unity are not so immediately importantant.

Anyone who is committed to evangelism should be committed to the reconciliation of all the holy Churches of God in truth - that is in the fulness of truth not on the basis of just warm feelings.

So it cannot be avoided that there are doctrinal differences between the Roman Catholics and Orthodox - both Eastern and Oriental. These need to be dealt with, and witnessing to the truth in such circumstances is also an aspect of evangelism.

It is nothing to do with whose community is better, but rather what is the truth, what is the 'good news'.

That is why the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are still working for reconciliation and have not merely 'decreed' it. It is necessary to confirm that we are all witnessing to the same Gospel.

Now in my studies I do not find any doctrinal difference between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. But there are theological differences between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics. It is necessary that we bear witness to what we believe to be true.

I would much rather that the entire Roman Catholic communion came into unity with the Orthodox communities, but while that is happening I still need to share the whole gospel with whoever will hear - even the members of my own church, because we all need to be converted every day, because from the Roman and Orthodox perspectives we do not share the fulness of the faith at the moment.

Issues that may be considered to be controversial are:

i. filioqueii. papal supremacy and universal ordinary jurisdictioniii. papal infallibilityiv. immaculate conception of the Virgin Maryv. christological agreement between Roman Catholic and Assyrian Churchvi. use of wafers in the eucharist (the Armenians use unleavened bread but it is bread not a wafer)

I'm not raising these to be difficult but to explain why Orthodox don't consider that it is possible to recognise an identity of faith at present. And if there is not an identity of faith then both sides are the object of education, persuasion, evangelism by the other. This is only natural if we both believe we have the full gospel.

I have no intent to 'make you Orthodox' though, as I said. Only that you, and I, together come to a deeper appreciation of the good news.

Well we all need evangelising. Evangelism is not the same as proselytism. Proselytism seeks to get people to join 'my group' at any cost, evangelism wants people to know God better, in God's way and in God's time.

Church unity is very important to evangelism at many levels. But when I am talking about the faith with a colleague at work who knows little about Orthodoxy except that which I have told him then the larger questions of Church unity are not so immediately importantant.

Anyone who is committed to evangelism should be committed to the reconciliation of all the holy Churches of God in truth - that is in the fulness of truth not on the basis of just warm feelings.

So it cannot be avoided that there are doctrinal differences between the Roman Catholics and Orthodox - both Eastern and Oriental. These need to be dealt with, and witnessing to the truth in such circumstances is also an aspect of evangelism.

It is nothing to do with whose community is better, but rather what is the truth, what is the 'good news'.

That is why the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are still working for reconciliation and have not merely 'decreed' it. It is necessary to confirm that we are all witnessing to the same Gospel.

Well said and I agree with you.

Now in my studies I do not find any doctrinal difference between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. But there are theological differences between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics. It is necessary that we bear witness to what we believe to be true. I agree here too.

I would much rather that the entire Roman Catholic communion came into unity with the Orthodox communities, but while that is happening I still need to share the whole gospel with whoever will hear - even the members of my own church, because we all need to be converted every day, because from the Roman and Orthodox perspectives we do not share the fulness of the faith at the moment. Again fair enough. We are in agreement here too.

Issues that may be considered to be controversial are:

i. filioqueii. papal supremacy and universal ordinary jurisdictioniii. papal infallibilityiv. immaculate conception of the Virgin Maryv. christological agreement between Roman Catholic and Assyrian Churchvi. use of wafers in the eucharist (the Armenians use unleavened bread but it is bread not a wafer)

I'm not raising these to be difficult but to explain why Orthodox don't consider that it is possible to recognise an identity of faith at present. And if there is not an identity of faith then both sides are the object of education, persuasion, evangelism by the other. This is only natural if we both believe we have the full gospel. A agree again. But I feel these "problems" are not as insurmountable as they may seem on the surface. I have no intent to 'make you Orthodox' though, as I said. Only that you, and I, together come to a deeper appreciation of the good news. I understand and again well said. Thank you for your opinion.Peace,Polycarp

Thank you so much for joining us here on the site! I look forward to reading your posts and input on various issuesGÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âª

Let me just say at the outset that I am a personally a fan of the BOC, your website, The Glastonbury Review and all of your efforts at bringing Orthodoxy to the British IslesGÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂªI am particularly appreciative for your publishing of Fr. V.C. Samuel’s book on Chalcedon, an important educator that significantly helps our generation of younger ‘oriental’ Orthodox Christians to better understand our faithGÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âªat least on a personal level because it sure made a big difference in my understanding of my own faith (Ethiopian Tewahdo)GÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âª

1) What kind of relations, organizations or joint services do you have with the other OO Churches in Britain such as the Ethiopians, Indians, Copts, Syrians, etc. that are traditionally more focused on serving immigrant communities of those Churches?

2) I think what our OO tradition suffers from the most at this point is the lack of information readily available on-line or even in University libraries; Fr. V.C. Samuels many known, yet hard to find, articles and books (many in English) come readily to mindGÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âªwhat prospects do you see of an on-line OO resource center that makes much of the now inaccessible works more easily accessible, especially for our younger generation?

3) How successful has the BOC been in reaching out to young college age British youth?

4) With the morality of the Anglican church in a serious crisis how has this affected attraction to Orthodoxy in general?

Sorry to bombard you with questionsGÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Âªbtw, the Celtic site is awesome, thanks for the link!

1. We have good relations with all the Oriental Orthodox in the UK. We have joint liturgies with the Eritrean Orthodox 3 or 4 times a year, and a large group of them came with us on pilgrimage to the shrine of one of our British saints. There is a Council of Oriental Orthodox Churches which my bishop and one of our priests are members of. Just a little while ago my bishop attended the Indian Orthodox community in London, and we have good relations with the Armenian Orthodox. A couple of years ago quite a few of us attended the consecration of a new Coptic Orthodox Church by Pope Shenouda. And our priests regularly attend the meetings for priests which Pope Shenouda holds on his visits. There has also been a joint liturgy of all the Oriental Orthodox churches.

I would like to see more joint activity but the possibilities are there, it just requires people from all the communities to want to serve together.

2. I would love to see such a resource created, with some sort of fellowship or on-line community of Oriental Orthodox folk committed to such a ministry. I am working on a website dedicated to St Severus and I'd like to see some sort of Institute of St Severus created that supported our churches with lectures, audio materials, booklets and books.

3. Not especially successful. We are still small. That is why I think on-line materials are useful since they give us a longer reach. I am constantly involved with trying to create new materials but it is hard to get things together in a disparate community that requires people to participate by post or email. I'd like us to produce a study course that people could use to be introduced to Orthodox thought. We have children in most of our communities but we are not geared up especially to reach them. I am always on the look out for good Orthodox children's Sunday School materials but haven't found much in the UK.

4. We had already received an influx of Anglicans when the first women were ordained as priests. Certainly some others will notw look again at Orthodoxy. The problem is that Anglicanism is a different mindset altogether from Orthodoxy. If it is possible to be in the same church as bishops who do not believe in the resurrection then it is also possible to be in the same church as homosexual priests - as long as they don't come to my church - which seems to be the mentality. Anglicanism is basically a congregationalist ecclesiology. Each church has its own life. So in my home town there is a very Anglo-Orthodox type church whose priest visits Ukrainian monasteries and has icons, and on the other side of the town is a charismatic, modern church with little time for the tradition of the church. They have little in common - even doctrinally - but they co-exist by not interfering with each other. This means that those who accepted women priests - as long as they didn't have one - can already accept most things.

Hi, I just noticed in your picture that you apear to be wearing your stole like a reader while your rank is subdeacon, so I was just wondering, are British Orthodox vestments different than Coptic Orthodox vestments?

Hi. I wasn't trying to criticize or anything, I was just curious if it was different.

I'm a chanter, so I shouldn't wear one at all, but I do since a woman at church gave me one as a gift and so the appropriate thing to do is to wear it, it's just like yours.

A reader wears it like we do.

A subdeacon wears it the way most chanters at my church do, hanging from the right sholder down the right side, then looped around the back to come around the left waist back up to the right sholder, then hanging down the back from the right sholder.

A full deacon wears the same, but on the other sholder (I may have mixed the shoulders up).

But for us it's random since parents just buy their kids whatever looks good, and it continues from there. I was just wondering if it was the same for you guys, guess it is :-)