Member

With many European countries having a conviction rate of below 5%, that won't do. What will be a lot more effective is not to combine different goals.
Germany has a very low birth rate, and Merkel thinks having refugees will stop population decline. This is true, but causes more problems than it solves as they don't bring in the kind of people they need. The surge in crime and unemployment costs will sway the populace against refugees. It also attracts many immigrants from peaceful countries.
All this makes helping refugees from war more difficult.

The solution is to accept refugees from war, while making it completely clear that non of them will ever be allowed to stay in Germany when the war is over. In the meantime do not mix them with the general population but instead build migrant cities where they have to stay during their shelter, while providing them with food, shelter, medicine and other basics where needed.
People who misbehave during their stay there and pray on fellow refugees need to be deported or locked up for the remainder of the war in Syria.

Population decline can be prevented by domestic measures and by allowing migration of people who can contribute, for example educated people from Asia and South America.

I'm sorry, but this is complete idiocy considering how modern, low-intensity conflicts proceed. The Somalian Civil War started in the late 80s and is still ongoing. What if the Syrian Civil War devolves into something similar? Are you suggesting refugees be kept in camps for generations? That's the worst possible option: it's inhumane and degrading as well as expensive and unsafe because the camps will become hotbeds for crime and unrest out of pure desperation.

Banned

Since we are basically forcing people to walk over a continent, young men are most able to make the trip. Which is a problem. Countries like the UK take families directly from the refugee camps to their country. Canada and the US do the same. Which is a better solution, since then you don't split up families, provide a safe journey and probably prevent problems in the future because of that.

Member

Maybe forcing them isn't the right word, but it is the only way for refugees to get to Europe. The politicians here basically said "come, we will help" but only when they got here on their own. Of course the old, kids and women will have a harder time making that journey.

The result being that people need to be processed here, a lot of them aren't even from a war region and it is hard to sent them back once they are here.

That's why I added that taking in people from the region directly who actually need the help is a better way to go about it, and I think would have led to less problems.

Member

Maybe forcing them isn't the right word, but it is the only way for refugees to get to Europe. The politicians here basically said "come, we will help" but only when they got here on their own. Of course the old, kids and women will have a harder time making that journey.

The result being that people need to be processed here, a lot of them aren't even from a war region and it is hard to sent them back once they are here.

That's why I added that taking in people from the region directly who actually need the help is a better way to go about it, and I think would have led to less problems.

Yeah, but that would basically require an EU-wide effort and that turned out to be a complete non-starter. Sad, really. Europe really dropped the ball with this crisis. Makes me worried about how we'll deal with climate refugees in the future, the current crisis can't hold a candle to the possible exodus that could entail.

Banned

I do think a large part of the issue is the lack of punishment. I brought this up in an earlier thread, about how these crimes (assault on the street, theft) are not being punished accordingly and even if people are caught they are free on the streets pretty quickly.

If we can look to extreme inequality cases, like say in India, gender and income inequality plays a whole lot into it. Throw in maybe a healthy dosage of cultural clash and you got a kettle bomb with Germany's situation.

Member

Maybe forcing them isn't the right word, but it is the only way for refugees to get to Europe. The politicians here basically said "come, we will help" but only when they got here on their own. Of course the old, kids and women will have a harder time making that journey.

The result being that people need to be processed here, a lot of them aren't even from a war region and it is hard to sent them back once they are here.
That's why I added that taking in people from the region directly who actually need the help is a better way to go about it, and I think would have led to less problems.

That process is in place around Europe. These are people who are officially designated as refugees by the UNHCR and are allowed to resettle according to each country's own refugee quotas.

The problem is that the huge amount of asylum seekers in the initial refugee camps has basically overwhelmed the process and waiting times in camps became longer and longer while more people are flooding in. What we have is more or less a spillover effect from this failure. People got frustrated and started moving on their own.

Maybe forcing them isn't the right word, but it is the only way for refugees to get to Europe. The politicians here basically said "come, we will help" but only when they got here on their own. Of course the old, kids and women will have a harder time making that journey.

The result being that people need to be processed here, a lot of them aren't even from a war region and it is hard to sent them back once they are here.

That's why I added that taking in people from the region directly who actually need the help is a better way to go about it, and I think would have led to less problems.

I don't know how it is where you live of course, but here - Netherlands - with these kind of crimes it is very hard to make arrests, the punishments are small and a lot of time people don't even bother with reporting it since there is a feeling that it will not help anyway.

That process is in place around Europe. These are people who are officially designated as refugees by the UNHCR and are allowed to resettle according to each country's own refugee quotas.

The problem is that the huge amount of asylum seekers in the initial refugee camps has basically overwhelmed the process and waiting times in camps became longer and longer while more people are flooding in. What we have is more or less a spillover effect from this failure. People got frustrated and started moving on their own.

That's why we should have used the funds now needed to manage these millions here to provide help there and make a better effort. Of course it is all easier said after the fact, but I think the majority of people now think the way Europe has handled the crisis is not a good one, and certainly not how Germany has done it by just saying welcome to everyone. Would have been cheaper, safer and better for everyone involved, but what's done is done now. But maybe that's getting a bit off-topic here.

Neither does suggesting the solution is to segregate a whole population for some indeterminate period.

When you have an uncontrolled influx of immigrants that your country can't handle, criminal activity is bound to happen. People shouldn't be shocked and try to find immediate solutions since there won't be any. You need time will allow proper integration. In the meantime, as long the authorities stay level headed and address the crimes appropriately, you won't have backlash from the native population or from the immigrant population.

But if it is a quick solution that people want, the answer is simple. Mass deportation. But that won't resolve Germany's other issues with population growthm

Member

I don't know how it is where you live of course, but here - Netherlands - with these kind of crimes it is very hard to make arrests, the punishments are small and a lot of time people don't even bother with reporting it since there is a feeling that it will not help anyway.

That's why we should have used the funds now needed to manage these millions here to provide help there and make a better effort. Of course it is all easier said after the fact, but I think the majority of people now think the way Europe has handled the crisis is not a good one, and certainly not how Germany has done it by just saying welcome to everyone. Would have been cheaper, safer and better for everyone involved, but what's done is done now. But maybe that's getting a bit off-topic here.

For the current refugees in Germany and other countries, obviously we can't deport them, neither should we (not back to Syria, there is a war there, and it would be unfair to Hungary and Greece to just let them deal with it), but processes for denied applications should be quick and effective so the efforts can focus on those in need. There is no reason for people form the Balkans for example to even be let in here and take up places in an already overwhelmed system.

After that I think we should not allow people in at the outer European borders without proper papers, but instead focus our efforts on helping people directly in the refugee camps in the region and work together to relocate people from there to safe countries.

That said, the crimes in Cologne were not proven to be from current refugees, but it certainly doesn't help public sentiment, and at least make proper guidelines and having a plan in place will help in taking away fears from the public about the crisis.

Member

For the current refugees in Germany and other countries, obviously we can't deport them, neither should we (not back to Syria, there is a war there, and it would be unfair to Hungary and Greece to just let them deal with it), but processes for denied applications should be quick and effective so the efforts can focus on those in need. There is no reason for people form the Balkans for example to even be let in here and take up places in an already overwhelmed system.

After that I think we should not allow people in at the outer European borders without proper papers, but instead focus our efforts on helping people directly in the refugee camps in the region and work together to relocate people from there to safe countries.

That said, the crimes in Cologne were not proven to be from current refugees, but it certainly doesn't help public sentiment, and at least make proper guidelines and having a plan in place will help in taking away fears from the public about the crisis.

People from balkan states are already being deported. Even people that have regular jobs and people that are disabled. There are mass camps in bamberg where thise people are kept and they do not get legal or psycholgical counselling either

Member

People from balkan states are already being deported. Even people that have regular jobs and people that are disabled. There are mass camps in bamberg where thise people are kept and they do not get legal or psycholgical counselling either

It seems they are getting faster with that then. Which - while sad on an individual level for the people involved of course - is a good thing, since it will mean less waiting times and more room to help those fleeing from worse conditions. Don't get me wrong, I do feel bad for these people and everyone deserves a good life, but there is a limit to the amount of people we can help and the efforts should be focused on those most in need at the moment.

Member

Her statements were shortened and taken out of context. It's a stupid formulation and a seasoned politician should know better to say something like that, but I don't get the impression of victim blaming.
It's about a general code of conduct for big events, notably the upcoming carnival, which includes (apparently) specific rules for women.

Member

Her statements were shortened and taken out of context. It's a stupid formulation and a seasoned politician should know better to say something like that, but I don't get the impression of victim blaming.
It's about a general code of conduct for big events, notably the upcoming carnival, which includes (apparently) specific rules for women.

Member

I'm sorry, but this is complete idiocy considering how modern, low-intensity conflicts proceed. The Somalian Civil War started in the late 80s and is still ongoing. What if the Syrian Civil War devolves into something similar? Are you suggesting refugees be kept in camps for generations? That's the worst possible option: it's inhumane and degrading as well as expensive and unsafe because the camps will become hotbeds for crime and unrest out of pure desperation.

The alternative is to support complete foreign countries for generations? The German people become older and older, so it will already be a challenge for the shrinking working population to support the increasing numbers of elderly. That makes it completely impossible to swallow the massive costs of crime and unemployment that really starts to take off 20 years from now if the people are allowed to mingle through the population, bring over their wives over and have their children grow up with a conflicting culture. These costs are astronomical compared to the costs of providing basic shelter for a prolonged period.
Even more so because the majority of refugees don't walk all the way to northern Europe for the lack of war here, but because of the free facilities and accommodating attitude.

Rising costs for the migrant cities if the conflict is prolonged are a good thing by the way, because it provides incentive for a permanent solution. At some point the costs of sheltering Syrians becomes larger than the costs of enforcing a save enclave in the middle east.
The west needs some stimuli for instance to stop supporting the Saudi dictatorship.

ERMYGERD!

Her statements were shortened and taken out of context. It's a stupid formulation and a seasoned politician should know better to say something like that, but I don't get the impression of victim blaming.
It's about a general code of conduct for big events, notably the upcoming carnival, which includes (apparently) specific rules for women.

Member

The alternative is to support complete foreign countries for generations? The German people become older and older, so it will already be a challenge for the shrinking working population to support the increasing numbers of elderly. That makes it completely impossible to swallow the massive costs of crime and unemployment that really starts to take off 20 years from now if the people are allowed to mingle through the population, bring over their wives over and have their children grow up with a conflicting culture. These costs are astronomical compared to the costs of providing basic shelter for a prolonged period.
Even more so because the majority of refugees don't walk all the way to northern Europe for the lack of war here, but because of the free facilities and accommodating attitude.

Rising costs for the migrant cities if the conflict is prolonged are a good thing by the way, because it provides incentive for a permanent solution. At some point the costs of sheltering Syrians becomes larger than the costs of enforcing a save enclave in the middle east.
The west needs some stimuli for instance to stop supporting the Saudi dictatorship.

But keeping them in camps is precisely that: supporting foreign populations for generations! The obviously far more realistic solution is to integrate them into society so they can work and support themselves. It would cost just as much in the short term but would pay off in the long term. How do you imagine that keeping them as perpetual wards of the state for decades could be cheaper? Even basic shelter and health care will cost you a fortune unless you suggest keeping them in veritable concentrating camps.

And for the record, suggesting it's just a matter of "enforcing safe enclaves in the Middle East" is just astoundingly naive. Going in with force can just as easily make things worse, as happened in Iraq and Libya.

The question starts at about 16:00. She is specifically asked about what women can do (preemptively) to (attempt to) prevent getting into such situations. She subsequently gives a brief, not particularly well-formulated response and refers to (what you could call) a code of conduct specifically aimed at helping women.

It was not about a general code of conduct, it was not in any way about blaming the women, it was not about what the women should have done. I think they also said that there are other code of conducts, e.g. for foreign visitors to explain what behavior is approriate and what is not, but I'm not sure if that was during said conference.

ERMYGERD!

The question starts at about 16:00. She is specifically asked about what women can do (preemptively) to (attempt to) prevent getting into such situations. She subsequently gives a brief, not particularly well-formulated response and refers to (what you could call) a code of conduct specifically aimed at helping women.

It was not about a general code of conduct, it was not in any way about blaming the women, it was not about what the women should have done. I think they also said that there are other code of conducts, e.g. for foreign visitors to explain what behavior is approriate and what is not, but I'm not sure if that was during said conference.

She didn't say that. At all. I don't see how anyone watching the press conference would come to that conclusion.

She said women should keep at least one arms length from male strangers. How would you interpret that?

Also, her other suggestions; "sticking to a group of trusted acquaintances, asking for help from others and informing the police." didn't seem to help the women attacked at NYE, why would it make a difference at Karnival?

How about she's introduce a code of conduct for the animals that don't know how to behave? "Keep your hands to yourself, don't steal, and if that's too much for you to handle, go back to your home and enjoy a nice quiet evening."

Member

She said women should keep at least one arms length from male strangers. How would you interpret that?

Also, her other suggestions; "sticking to a group of trusted acquaintances, asking for help from others and informing the police." didn't seem to help the women attacked at NYE, why would it make a difference at Karnival?

She was asked in general about situations where a women might get physically and/or sexually assaulted. They even clearly explain the limitations of such advice in the conference, e.g. that bystanders may not have called the police out of fear.

In no way did she imply that these are sufficient to prevent such situations. If she had, then you could argue that she was blaming the victims.

Member

The question starts at about 16:00. She is specifically asked about what women can do (preemptively) to (attempt to) prevent getting into such situations. She subsequently gives a brief, not particularly well-formulated response and refers to (what you could call) a code of conduct specifically aimed at helping women.

It was not about a general code of conduct, it was not in any way about blaming the women, it was not about what the women should have done. I think they also said that there are other code of conducts, e.g. for foreign visitors to explain what behavior is approriate and what is not, but I'm not sure if that was during said conference.

She didn't say that. At all. I don't see how anyone watching the press conference would come to that conclusion.

While I get her intentions must be good, it is still so strange that this is a thing that is apparently needed. You can call it helping, but it is still victim blaming to me.

And a code of conduct for foreigners. How sad is it that this is needed? As if not assaulting people is something that people need to be told. Who in their right mind would ever need to think about whether that is appropriate or not.

She should have said women need to do nothing different, that this scum will be arrested and thrown in jail and everyone attempting to do similar things will get faced with an increased police force to make sure everyone is safe.

Banned

She said women should keep at least one arms length from male strangers. How would you interpret that?

Also, her other suggestions; "sticking to a group of trusted acquaintances, asking for help from others and informing the police." didn't seem to help the women attacked at NYE, why would it make a difference at Karnival?

How about she's introduce a code of conduct for the animals that don't know how to behave? "Keep your hands to yourself, don't steal, and if that's too much for you to handle, go back to your home and enjoy a nice quiet evening."

Member

While I get her intentions must be good, it is still so strange that this is a thing that is apparently needed. You can call it helping, but it is still victim blaming to me.

And a code of conduct for foreigners. How sad is it that this is needed? As if not assaulting people is something that people need to be told. Who in their right mind would ever need to think about whether that is appropriate or not.

She should have said women need to do nothing different, that this scum will be arrested and thrown in jail and everyone attempting to do similar things will get faced with an increased police force to make sure everyone is safe.

Member

How about she's introduce a code of conduct for the animals that don't know how to behave? "Keep your hands to yourself, don't steal, and if that's too much for you to handle, go back to your home and enjoy a nice quiet evening."

It is in a sense, but there is nothing wrong with taking precautions to protect yourself too. There is victim blaming and being pro-active about your own safety. Of course, this shouldn't be necessary, but it appears it is until a better solution is found.

Member

The men doing these disgusting acts are not the smartest bunch. What do they think will happen if these things keep happening in increasing amounts? There will be more and more angry backlash against refugees, most of whom are innocent. They will be horribly outnumbered when the line is finally crossed and the native populace feels that they're not protected anymore and the vigilantism begins. These individuals are really going to make it a lot worse for everyone else.

Member

But keeping them in camps is precisely that: supporting foreign populations for generations! The obviously far more realistic solution is to integrate them into society so they can work and support themselves. It would cost just as much in the short term but would pay off in the long term. How do you imagine that keeping them as perpetual wards of the state for decades could be cheaper? Even basic shelter and health care will cost you a fortune unless you suggest keeping them in veritable concentrating camps.

And for the record, suggesting it's just a matter of "enforcing safe enclaves in the Middle East" is just astoundingly naive. Going in with force can just as easily make things worse, as happened in Iraq and Libya.

Keeping refugees is migrant enclaves cost money yes, but it is not the entire foreign population, which is a massive difference. Also, housing can be accomplished much cheaper, healthy foodstuffs can be effectively delivered and distributed in bulk. Compared to right now where taking care of a migrant for a day is already more expensive than a day in a holiday home and a meal in a cheap restaurant.

Your solution is completely unrealistic, how can Muslims be integrated in a western society? Several western countries have tried, all have failed dramatically because not only conflicts Islamic culture with western culture, the new citizens have actively rejected assimilation. Surely there are individuals who can transcend their background and become productive members of society, but as a whole they will be a strong net-negative. Sure, the costs of integrating them in the short term are not that high, just a few billion euros a year, but the costs of trying to integrate them will be astronomical in the long run. It takes many, many productive citizens to compensate for the costs of one individual trying to increase his welfare package with a life of crime, or worse, trying to actively destroy society.
Simply put, immigrants from the seventies are still 'perpetual wards of the state', with one difference is that there are many more of them. It is cheaper to just give them stuff than have them rob people for it.

And making the middle east save certainly isn't easy. But problems in Iraq and Syria and other middle eastern countries have deteriorated precisely because strong leadership has been overthrown. New powerful secular dictatorship is required there for things to improve.

I don't see how it is victim blaming and no one has offered an explanation. At no point does she imply that the victims had any fault in what happened. They make it as clear as possible that no one is to blame but the criminals.

And a code of conduct for foreigners. How sad is it that this is needed? As if not assaulting people is something that people need to be told. Who in their right mind would ever need to think about whether that is appropriate or not.

I'm pretty sure the code is more to explain cultural differences to visitors. You'd be surprised how different social norms can be between different countries. It's also certainly helpful to explain German carnival and give people some ground rules. For example, insulting someone can be expensive in Germany. I mean, looking at Oktoberfest, it is certainly not a bad idea to offer a code of conduct to visitors.

She should have said women need to do nothing different, that this scum will be arrested and thrown in jail and everyone attempting to do similar things will get faced with an increased police force to make sure everyone is safe.

They also said that they will do whatever they can to prevent such events, but it is clear to everyone that physical and sexual assault, let alone theft, in principle cannot be prevented efficiently, especially during a big event such as carnival.

Instead of an attempt at giving advice, she would've made a pointless promise that would have been proven wrong inevitably within two months, since carnival season is upon us. Frankly, a statement like "There is nothing you can do to prevent situations where you might be the target of physical or sexual assault in any way." sounds like something that could easily be the death blow of a political career. It is clear that she had no bad intentions with her statement and that they were not trying to blame the victims.

Member

Keeping refugees is migrant enclaves cost money yes, but it is not the entire foreign population, which is a massive difference. Also, housing can be accomplished much cheaper, healthy foodstuffs can be effectively delivered and distributed in bulk. Compared to right now where taking care of a migrant for a day is already more expensive than a day in a holiday home and a meal in a cheap restaurant.

Your solution is completely unrealistic, how can Muslims be integrated in a western society? Several western countries have tried, all have failed dramatically because not only conflicts Islamic culture with western culture, the new citizens have actively rejected assimilation. Surely there are individuals who can transcend their background and become productive members of society, but as a whole they will be a strong net-negative. Sure, the costs of integrating them in the short term are not that high, just a few billion euros a year, but the costs of trying to integrate them will be astronomical in the long run. It takes many, many productive citizens to compensate for the costs of one individual trying to increase his welfare package with a life of crime, or worse, trying to actively destroy society.
Simply put, immigrants from the seventies are still 'perpetual wards of the state', with one difference is that there are many more of them. It is cheaper to just give them stuff than have them rob people for it.

And making the middle east save certainly isn't easy. But problems in Iraq and Syria and other middle eastern countries have deteriorated precisely because strong leadership has been overthrown. New powerful secular dictatorship is required there for things to improve.

Member

I don't see how it is victim blaming and no one has offered an explanation. At no point does she imply that the victims had any fault in what happened. They make it as clear as possible that no one is to blame but the criminals.

It comes across as victim blaming, because you tell people to stay away from others or something bad can happen. Sure, some things are good precautions, but in this case not only is it advice people can't work with, it didn't stop the assaults that happen. How do you keep an arms distance away from people in a crowded area? It's impossible. Certainly when you have a mob of people surrounding you.

I'm pretty sure the code is more to explain cultural differences to visitors. You'd be surprised how different social norms can be between different countries. It's also certainly helpful to explain German carnival and give people some ground rules.

Even if social norms are different, I think any society has rules against assault and theft. Those are not cultural differences, they are crimes. Ground rules would be "you can't take beer in this area" and "the party areas are in this part of town" not "don't sexually assault people."

They also said that they will do whatever they can to prevent such events, but it is clear to everyone that physical and sexual assault, let alone theft, in principle cannot be prevented efficiently, especially during a big event such as carnival.

Instead of an attempt at giving advice, she would've made a pointless promise that would have been proven wrong inevitably within two months, since carnival season is upon us. Frankly, a statement like "There is nothing you can do to prevent situations where you might be the target of physical or sexual assault in any way." sounds like something that could easily be the death blow of a political career.

It might not be totally preventable, but it seems the people involved in this matter were free to roam the streets for a longer time in that area and already had stolen from people and assaulted people. Why was that not handled so it couldn't grow out of control? Not handling those cases leads to a complete lack of respect for police and authorities among these groups. Pictures are going around at Bild now of the people arrested being let go after an hour and laughing about it.

Member

She should have said women need to do nothing different, that this scum will be arrested and thrown in jail and everyone attempting to do similar things will get faced with an increased police force to make sure everyone is safe.

Member

Not every crime, but at least have the police show themselves more, make a serious effort to reduce those street assaults and gangs and take away fears of the public of this becoming a regular occurrence.

will learn eventually

The German punitive system is based on individual punishment and not collective. As such, the perpetrators should be captured and punished. Blaming the entire migrant population for these incidents, would equally demand that in the arsonist cases throughout the year, all of Pegida, AfD and the NPD get blamed and punished.
(Paraphrasing here)

It's becoming the German version of "White lone wolf" vs "brown terrorists"

Member

Even if social norms are different, I think any society has rules against assault and theft. Those are not cultural differences, they are crimes. Ground rules would be "you can't take beer in this area" and "the party areas are in this part of town" not "don't sexually assault people."

No one was saying that theft or assault have to be explained. Given the strong differences in social norms however, as evident e.g. from Oktoberfest, it is obviously necessary to explain local customs and social norms to visitors. People may often travel to such events with an inaccurate idea on how things work.

It might not be totally preventable, but it seems the people involved in this matter were free to roam the streets for a longer time in that area and already had stolen from people and assaulted people. Why was that not handled so it couldn't grow out of control? Not handling those cases leads to a complete lack of respect for police and authorities among these groups. Pictures are going around at Bild now of the people arrested being let go after an hour and laughing about it.