To everybody who claims that comp stomps are for losers.

Just a little tidbit of information I am currently qouting.

"The only reason there is multiplayer at all actually is because a few us at Ironclad wanted to be able to fight each other and run comp-stomps. At the time, we predicted the return on investment for multiplayer would be small (and it was as only a very small fraction of Solar Empire players play multiplayer) but we did it anyway, because it was fun for us."

It could be reinterpreted as "we didn't have the scope of vision to make a multiplayer game, but added in the multiplayer elements".

When these elements were added together, they had their hands on lightning in a bottle.

The makers of Sins actually have an AMAZING multiplayer game. Yet they think there is very little return on investment, mainly because they don't want to invest anything into multiplayer.

Want to know how blizzard got big? RTS's and the original Battle.net

I might be out on a limb here, but I think blizzard's "choice story" is a good model for Starclad to follow.

By providing good infrastructure for their games , Blizzard allow players to revel in them. I try to revel in the world of sins, but the developers make it damn difficult to do so.

Battle.net was the ultimate in small investment HUGE returns. The developers of sins haven't even put in a real investment, so they have guaranteed slim to no potential returns.

Especially since the development team went out of their way to ensure the game had this functionality to increase the fun factor of the game.

I also find it funny that the starclad developers know so much about creating cashflow. Considering their track record and missed opportunities i'm utterly at a loss for where their confidence in this area comes from.

Minidumps are one example, the bug that single handedly killed an entire potentially thriving multiplayer community, which is still around today!

Comp stomps aren't for losers, they also aren't for winners either.

Put it another way, I'm not going to buy a sins 2 if it doesn't come with an improved multiplayer functionality.

Hmm way to attempt to discredit a significant aspect of the sins gaming community. I'll remind you goa, that over and above purchasing the game, and being loyal fans of it for years, the multiplayer community have also donated thousands of hours to debugging and assisting developers with improving the game.

If developers can increase their core set of players via improving their game they can start thinking in the ten-hundreds of millions in the near future. Yet I still see them thinking smaller then they should. They are the self-limiters of their own paychecks.

Now if the developers want to crap on the dedication of their small online community, then their IP will eventually die.

Point of note...Blizzard has a great business model, but they make rotten games. So, not really a good example for comparison to anything worthwhile, really.

That said, the reason multiplayer is so popular nowadays is because AIs are so poor that they can't hope to beat the average twitch gamer who got their strategy from a number-cruncher. Eventually, there will come a time when no human could hope to beat an AI at any game.

Appealing to twitch gamers and gamers who have no life outside of their computer is a good business model, it makes tons of money, but it certainly doesn't make for objectively worthwhile games.

The thread is meant to lure in speculation and pitt members of the community against each other, yet in all reality comp stomps are fun. Personally I only play them rarely (especially during lower then peak players on ICO).

They are fun, you are justified in having fun with them Doshka19. Yet at the same time, your skill in the game, as well as the understanding of the game to assist in balancing the game for the developers is marginalized because you aren't pushing the game to its limits(assuming this is your primary source of sins experience). Its your choice to take the game to its limits, and I don't look down on anyone who chooses not to do so, as it can be a long learning curve.

One is not better then the other, and and this is where this whole thread fails.

The thread is meant to lure in speculation and pitt members of the community against each other, yet in all reality comp stomps are fun.

I have a feeling the thread is directed towards the ICO addicts with the big mouths that hang around on these forums more than it was made to create a discussion between ICO players and comp stompers...

It is not uncommon for new people to feel insulted by someone like Qu4r or Sanchezz because they don't play online (even though I know Qu4r and Sanchezz just hope to trigger new players into proving themselves on ICO).

Hmm way to attempt to discredit a significant aspect of the sins gaming community. I'll remind you goa, that over and above purchasing the game, and being loyal fans of it for years, the multiplayer community have also donated thousands of hours to debugging and assisting developers with improving the game.

It is not uncommon for new people to feel insulted by someone like Qu4r or Sanchezz because they don't play online (even though I know Qu4r and Sanchezz just hope to trigger new players into proving themselves on ICO).

This was exactly what I meant. I did not mean to imply I think all MPers are jerks. And if anything I wish the devs would listen to you guys more.

Why are you defending against a minority? As the quote pointed out, only a very small fraction of Sins players play multiplayer, thus that same small fraction (smaller, once you exclude the multiplayer players that like comp stomps and/or aren't dicks) are the only ones mocking comp stomps.

There's little need to be defensive about your interests when the numbers are already there to support you.

sareth01 You missed the point of the OP which was pointing out that some of those in the minority have been making fun of the majority. Nobody to this point that I have seen have been making fun of the minority in this game it has been kind of a one way street and there is no reason for the hostility.

I don't understand the point of this thread. Is it from someone who has an inferiority complex and wants to show that MP was an afterthought in order to make themselves feel better about only playing comp stomps? Who cares what % plays SP and what % plays MP. If an RTS wants to be successful economically and grow a large playerbase and extend the life of its game and IP, it needs MP - end of story. If it can do so and be a creatively successful "good game" (subjective obviously), even better. Sins is a creatively good game in my opinion. The devs aimed too low in MP goals imo - and as mentioned, they would be crazy to do so again for any potential Sins2. Their Sins of a Dark Age is very MP focused from the planning get go. Comp stomps aren't for "losers" - its all about how much you want to invest in the game and what kind of experience you are looking for. Most RTS are planned to accomodate both but the communities that grow around RTS are almost always MP focused - especially in a game without a single player campaign even. It's a testament to how good a game Sins is that it still has the following it does and a new expansion in Rebellion this many years after vanlla despite not having much MP support and not having a single player campaign.

Blizzard built a online competitive network with the development of their game because there budget was split and there games are not large scale matches like you can get in sins.

Iron-Clad built an impressive graphically enticing game from its release and most of the budget went to engine creation, graphics design and balancing.

Sins first role was to differentiate itself from all the other games and it succeeded. However in doing so they left out a-lot of content due to budget constraints.

In all fairness sins of a solar empire is a very sucessful game but i bet you the problem will always be concentrating on graphics design or gameplay so they balance the 2 with the budget. They also do their best to enhance the game engine and multiplayer but in this industry just going it alone has a very difficult journey but also a-lot of fun. Bioshock for example went for the unreal engine and made alot of money-same goes for mass effect but these are completely different genres and ironclad wouldn't have afforded the engine licence upon shipping the game and having to market it as-well.

Conclusion:

Comp Stomping will always be fun because its less of a hassle and trouble free from the small multi-player community and the difference in skills meaning new entrants are absolutely bashed to death. They are not losers--just unfortunate and still learning how to play.

Who cares what % plays SP and what % plays MP. If an RTS wants to be successful economically and grow a large playerbase and extend the life of its game and IP, it needs MP - end of story.

You people just don't get it...they don't care about making a huge financial success or the game of the century...they care about making a game they the devs like, enjoy playing, and are proud of...if Starclad was in it for the financial success, Ironcald wouldn't have abandoned Sins and made it a free to play game, and Stardock wouldn't have sold impulse...

Starclad doesn't need to do anything to achieve their goals...they already have a game they love, that they are proud of, and that represents their vision...and quite frankly, they don't give a rats ass if the MP exeperience is perfect or if the game has pristine balance...if you question this claim, I encourage you to look at Gal Civ II and the magic fairy games, as both have lots of SP potential but mediocore MP and awful balance...

The point of this thread was to show that Starclad (well, technically Ironclad but SD has the same sentiments) is not aiming to make this the biggest game ever...sure, they made some business decisions to help make more money (like steamworks being required), but in general that is not their primary task...Brad didn't found the company to become ludicrously rich...he found the company to make great games that he enjoys, and the OP I think testifies that Ironclad feels the same way as Brad's company does...

Comp Stomping will always be fun because its less of a hassle and trouble free from the small multi-player community and the difference in skills meaning new entrants are absolutely bashed to death. They are not losers--just unfortunate and still learning how to play.

WE HAVE EVIDENCE...RIDDLEKING THE TROLL IS REALLY JUST A TEDDY BEAR ONCE YOU GET TO KNOW HIM...

Hmm saying that they don't care about taking a leading role in the industry doesnt seem right...considering starclad gained the attention of the industry with thier gaming bill of rights, and touted themselves to be a shining example of how things should be in the industry. After reading about this gaming bill of rights I then learned about sins of a solar empire and realized that this might be a game worth buying. Years later i'm typing this.

It doesn't seem like they are ready to pack up and call it quits and rest on their laurels as well, I see a very active and ambitious gaming company that is learning a lot. Perhaps that original luster I saw has diminished somewhat, but it could be regained with a swipe of a towel.

Also, setting up cashflow opportunities isn't about becoming ludicrously rich, its about reinvesting in the game once you build it to fix the issues where the game was weak, to perfect the game. After all, they didn't have as big of a budget that they now have. Why not make a sure thing better? When elemental was announced I was surprised that a new IP was being introduced so early, considering a small dynamic team would have trouble working on more then one game. Personally I thought starclad needed to grow more and release a sins 2 that could knock the socks off the RTS genre and make RT4X a new specialized genre that could hopefully attract a lot of younger gamers to ensure a longterm, large market for future games.

You people just don't get it...they don't care about making a huge financial success or the game of the century...they care about making a game they the devs like, enjoy playing, and are proud of...if Starclad was in it for the financial success, Ironcald wouldn't have abandoned Sins and made it a free to play game, and Stardock wouldn't have sold impulse...

So, how are you so sure about what the developers care about?

Also, what about making a huge success in both game design and cashflow? Making better games then the current industry giants at a fraction of the cost with the same graphical quality with even better game play? That sort of thing turns heads, especially if you aren't interested in getting bought out, and can keep your focus on making great games first, then making money. Also, this could encourage the industry to become more competative then it is. Gamers shouldn't want the industry form into a few stagnating "oligarch companies" that work together to influence popular demand for games and ensure that the masses are fed mediocrity for top dollar. That is what Wallstreet wants, not the consumer.

I would love to see the gaming industry giants get off their complacent asses and start to progress the ideas behind the genres that have formed. These giants can afford to experiment and try new things, to take even bigger ideas to more incredible heights, yet many do not. Blizzard is a fine example of a company that could do 100x more then what it actually does, and has earned my disrespect. They turned a few great IP's and made them into something unrecognizably average, over time.

Games got prettier, but their quality has diminished. Just looking at the love that went into some of those old playstation 1, nintendo, and PC games. Look at the decline in gameplay quality of the elder scrolls series. No real new ideas coupled with improving graphics = pretty but low replayability/boring game. I'm still waiting for the modders to fix this. This isn't the movie industry!

Also, if sins started to do very well financially, wouldn't that mean that the industry heads would take notice, that the entire industry could benefit from stardock and ironclad's game design philosophy? Money doesn't just ensure that your own creature comforts and desires are met. Money talks, it influences, it changes peoples attitudes and perspectives.

Right now starclad is still an aspiring company that after the failure of elemental lost some of its industry cred. They made a great game with sins, yet they are now going with new IP's instead of improving the old. Perhaps they want to diversify, and perhaps they are running out of consistent cashflow and want to even things out a bit. If they improve their game by using proven methods within their corporate philosophy I really don't see how they can fail. Its not all about having the idea, its also about who is using/applying the idea.

Sins is fun to play as long as it isn't minidumping like crazy. Personally I wouldn't be proud of a game that I designed that had a regular crash to desktop, its sloppy. The game is very fun to play when there is reasonable balance between the factions(which is what existed in diplomacy). The game currently is weak in the online community, not enough people. Grow the online community and you will not just be getting a large group of people using your servers at no monthly expense, you are actually maintaining a large customer base that is interested in what you are doing and is interested in your VISION.

When people actually give a crap about your vision, you have something powerful, something to be proud of. You start to lead. Once in a position of leadership you can actually help bring about even greater games, something that a small group of 20 or so developers could only dream of. If you really want to make great games, you go along this path. Perhaps you will make games that will stand the test of time?

If you want to improve the gaming experence, if you want to have a game that someone gives a damn about, you do these things. You go through the motions even if you don't, because gamers will flock to the hope you provide them.

Multiplayer is the real last thing that gets games money today. Pirats will eat single player games profit. This is the case in almost all so called single player games today. Without multi player content, they are prone to get pirated. This is not 90's anymore. AI is stupid, and especially since this game is not Mass effect or Elders scrolls level of single player experience (there isn't even campaign included) there little incentive other than multiplayer to play this game (unless you are some sort of autist).

I also thing worls is gonna end soon and itas getting more obvious day by day since , for the first time I AGREE WITH Seleuceia.

Creepy:P

Sins is special because devs made a game they are proud of and like. The game that is booring for casual us moronic goons player , too compleks and take too much time to learn. Also form the start , skill was bigger then numbers.

Also at start devs played with us.

Time has passed and things changed.

Core MP, what left of it , become ,skilled. Even so called noobs are very good , better then vicious ai , much better.

Devs stoped playing , and stoped listening .

OK they listen but to the modders , make game more like they want it to be. And they dont care about MP balance cause they dont play MP any more.

If current state of affairs wont change , rebellion will be the end. MP core, thet returned cause they belived in promise of " multiplayer focus , mp balanced , bug free game with titans" will be gona again. rest of us, will go back to diplomacy.

On a more serious note, MP community is, whether you like it or not, core of every gaming community. Even if it's small, it's most active and dedicated. It knows game better than SP community and talks about it on forum. Majority of SP players don't communicate with rest of community, often don't even download patches and stay in their own little worlds.

And WTF of an argument is "there's more of us?" Do numbers give any privileges? I paid for game supporting MP. If it was pure SP, I wouldn't even bother with it. Making games for fun is all good, but when you start taking money for them, you need to deliver things which you promised. Yes, I'm talking about better MP support for Rebellion.

If devs hate ICO so much, just turn off the servers, remove MP support and market it as SP game. It would be honest thing to do, instead of deceiving people that Sins supports MP.

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 12Comp Stomping will always be fun because its less of a hassle and trouble free from the small multi-player community and the difference in skills meaning new entrants are absolutely bashed to death. They are not losers--just unfortunate and still learning how to play.

WE HAVE EVIDENCE...RIDDLEKING THE TROLL IS REALLY JUST A TEDDY BEAR ONCE YOU GET TO KNOW HIM...

There is a problem with competitive MP players being to God damn full of themselves thinking they are the saviors, masters, and commanders of every genre of video games this side of single player RPG's. No need to go into someones room that wants to start up a comp stomp and calling them a looser or worse. Well, unless it's Xbox live-then that's par for the course I guess.

Anyway-I fail to see the reason for the discord. If you like comp stomps, play them. If you don't-don't play them and leave the other people be.

To OP: I do feel your pain though. I like FFA's, and am seemingly an online pariah for it.

The games I have played online were very educational. Like when someone stomps on you with a big boot with nails sticking out of the bottom of it. The player who stomped on me (and several other players) was however nice enough to answer some questions and give me some pointers. I am a better player now because of him. And he was also nice enough to joke around a little.

So to recap: go stomped, learned and was treated with kindness.

That is a recipe for growing a community.

When better players are nice about crushing you and then picking you up off the floor when they are done.

I would try multiplayer if it didn't involve taking away from the 'conquering the galaxy' experience that has me playing comp stomp games that last 10+ hours since vanilla sins. I like being an empire, leading my massive fleets on epic conquests and holding the line against alien attackers.

I've actually been defeated a few times, not because I suck, I just absolutely refuse to resort to spamming, and other multiplayer tactics that I have read about on these forums the past few years. Why would I buy 300 iWin ships (whatever they may be in the current patch of the time, also im exaggerating this, I realize multiplayer doesn't always come down to that) and finish my game quickly from exploiting the weaknesses of the AI?

I purposely throw away the ideas that would make me the superior opponent merely on an intelligence basis. I make my own challenges, and I find it completely and utterly satisfying. Mods like Sins of the Fallen have kept that alive for me in ways that are most difficult to explain when I have just gotten out of bed @_@

On a side note, I work at Panera Bread. I have no desire to come home and do more things that involve total strangers kicking my ass.