Japan, and most areas of eastern Asia, was tribal - with each tribe/clan having its own spoken language but without a written language. Then came along - Chinese kanji characters - making the universal symbol for mouth easily understood by all, no matter that they didn`t know the spoken sound for `mouth` used by the clan two mountains away. Hence communication became possible between different peoples by the shared written language of kanji. Try that with roman characters - writing mouth in Italian, French, German, Spanish, and English - and then tell me the success rate for understanding based solely upon 27 characters.

I do understand that the roman alphabet has its benefits, and the English language too - but unless Japan were to completely forget our spoken language, the roman character set would simply bring chaos.

BTW – yes, the kanji radical does hint at pronunciation, but alas – given the many synonyms (those tribal words) that share that kanji, it isn`t a perfect system.

Your guess as to whether my praise was heartfelt, or just over the top derision.

I take your ping-pong style of response to be at least unconscious recognition of a losing position, but has it registered?

TJ--I could well be missing your point of the benefit of kanji characters. I don't get how there could be a "universal symbol for mouth" EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY ALL. And I understand what makes Japanese very difficult is that words change meanings based on inflections of the voice.......not sure if you are using that as a synonym or if it would be in addition to.

Your points don't make sense. Of course, a common written language makes sense to all who use it..........but the point is: how easy is it to learn and remember?

Going back to non-culturally and personally derived values, customs, and comfort levels: seems to me 27 is an easier system than anything above 27.

Its Math.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

And yes - there are words that `appear to` change meanings based upon inflection - but that is only to the untrained ear or when an attempt is made to convert that sound to 27 letters. Truth be, they were different words to begin with - but for clarity for those whose hearing skills may be lacking - one frequently see people `sky-writing` the intended kanji on their hand, thus ensuring correct meaning for homonym pregnant words.

TJ: Of Course the point is: both. The pros and cons of every decision made and not made. But general statements won't do. I don't go to Native American Museums in the USA..... or anywhere actually. How many reed baskets can you look at? And the culture I assume you are mostly talking about, recognized or not, is "useless" or like the Reservation Life Honoring the Heritage of Some Tribe: actually self inhibiting.

If Japanese were "switched" to some alphabet based/sound based hieroglyphs (phonics)........what "as exactly as you can describe it" culture would be lost other than a difficult to learn and use artifact from the long distant past? I assume the abacus is not used in stores anymore in Japan as they universally were used some decades ago? Do you feel that "loss?"

As posted on my other thread: this culture argument sounds like mostly a crock. Like the USA not going metric. Like Japans radicals: It is STUPID of USA not to switch. Nobody makes a cultural argument though. I do blame the Irish.

Re inflection: you are totally garbled. Does a word with the same symbol change meaning based on its inflection, or not? You say its an apparent change only and then that they were different words to begin with. Did you get caught up too much in the subtleties of throwing an insult????? Let me train you: blame the Irish.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Like the USA not going metric. Like Japans radicals: It is STUPID of USA not to switch. Nobody makes a cultural argument though.

If/when you find yourself saying, "It's traditional," as your reason for doing something, stop and determine whether that's your only reason. If it is, there are probably better ways of doing the something that are easier, cheaper, and/or more effective. If tradition is truly important to you, you're not going to forget it simply because you've stopped doing something the difficult, expensive, and/or ineffective way.

I haven't forgotten how to print and write in cursive simply because I type 99% of the time. When it matters, I have no problem either printing or writing in cursive (legibly in both). But typing is easier and more efficient every time.

"Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge."—Carl Sagan

"Every philosophy is tinged with the coloring of some secret imaginative background, which never emerges explicitly into its train of reasoning."—Alfred North Whitehead

"Knowledge belongs to humanity, and is the torch which illuminates the world."—Louis Pasteur

Nikki, I agree. Even when we substitute Cultural Heritage for tradition. "Its a crock."

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ: Of Course the point is: both. The pros and cons of every decision made and not made. But general statements won't do. I don't go to Native American Museums in the USA..... or anywhere actually. How many reed baskets can you look at? And the culture I assume you are mostly talking about, recognized or not, is "useless" or like the Reservation Life Honoring the Heritage of Some Tribe: actually self inhibiting.

If Japanese were "switched" to some alphabet based/sound based hieroglyphs (phonics)........what "as exactly as you can describe it" culture would be lost other than a difficult to learn and use artifact from the long distant past? I assume the abacus is not used in stores anymore in Japan as they universally were used some decades ago? Do you feel that "loss?"

Switching to a non kanji based character set - even the two we already have which produce all of the allowable sounds - would cause an inability to express oneself, except to the degree that one might assume meaning from context. The phonetic word hashi - was that chopstick, bridge, or a ladder? If discussing food, probably the former, but maybe the latter if that food was on the top shelf. If discussing construction of a bridge, were you referring to the ladder that is attached to it, or to the bridge itself?

The ability to express oneself using language instead of sign-language, or simple grunts, is the very basis of culture. That is what would be lost.

As posted on my other thread: this culture argument sounds like mostly a crock. Like the USA not going metric. Like Japans radicals: It is STUPID of USA not to switch. Nobody makes a cultural argument though. I do blame the Irish.

Try this Bobbo - please replace the English alphabet with some other character set. Has culture been lost since no nobody can read the old (printed just yesterday) books? Also of course the roots no longer exist, since that old cultural anchor – Latin no longer is relevant.

Re inflection: you are totally garbled. Does a word with the same symbol change meaning based on its inflection, or not? You say its an apparent change only and then that they were different words to begin with. Did you get caught up too much in the subtleties of throwing an insult????? Let me train you: blame the Irish.

Sorry, but I was trying to be clear. It was apparent (it appeared to be) that they were the same word only because of having the same pronunciation. And no - inflection does not change the meaning of a given kanji - but rather inflection is used to distinguish between kanjis. See hashi, above - chopsticks, bridge, or ladder. Also - do - an exercise area, the metal called copper, or the earth (dirt) itself. Dokan (kan being pipe) – was that a copper pipe, or a soil pipe – inflection provides the distinction between the `do` kanjis used when speaking about, or maybe ordering these types of pipes. If the clerk misunderstood, you might receive copper tubing for water pipes, instead of soil pipe for the outfall sewage system you are installing.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nikki, I agree. Even when we substitute Cultural Heritage for tradition. "Its a crock."

I mean, I'm fascinated by my own cultural heritage and have gone to considerable lengths to research my ancestors' various bloodlines, but it's sheer curiosity. My maternal grandfather was 100% Gorali from the Spiš region of Slovakia. The Gorali were one of several semi-nomadic highlander herding groups that migrated through the Carpathian Mountains and ended up in various places.

Interesting, to be sure, but does that mean I should rush out and buy a flock of sheep? That is part of my cultural heritage, after all, but what's the point? The idea is ridiculous, although I'd have one hell of a lawn in a century or so. Honestly, I'll stick with making pirôžky (pirogi), koláče (a lovely buttery, eggy yeast bread, something like a challah, rolled up like a jellyroll with various fillings), and plnená paprika (stuffed peppers). Now that's a cultural heritage I can sink my teeth into.

"Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge."—Carl Sagan

"Every philosophy is tinged with the coloring of some secret imaginative background, which never emerges explicitly into its train of reasoning."—Alfred North Whitehead

"Knowledge belongs to humanity, and is the torch which illuminates the world."—Louis Pasteur

TJrandom wrote:The phonetic word hashi - was that chopstick, bridge, or a ladder?

Have you read Terry Pratchett's Interesting Times? It's part of his Discworld series in which Rincewind the inept wizard visits the Agatean Empire (not at all modeled after China in any way). One of Pratchett's footnotes discusses the series of letters English-speakers habitually use to represent a scream—Aarrgghh!—and goes on to say that, depending upon inflection, this might mean, to an Agatean, either:• Highly enjoyable!• Your wife is a big hippo.• I would like to eat your foot.Among other things.

"Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge."—Carl Sagan

"Every philosophy is tinged with the coloring of some secret imaginative background, which never emerges explicitly into its train of reasoning."—Alfred North Whitehead

"Knowledge belongs to humanity, and is the torch which illuminates the world."—Louis Pasteur

I have to completely support TJ's advocacy of preserving the cultural element in any linguistic system, including spelling. JO's Nooalf, for instance, is an admirable effort with understandable aims, but my criticism of it has always been that (certainly for English) it completely destroys the historical context of the language. Bobbo, perhaps you should consider how very, very different is the intent behind the use of the Latin 'coitus' as opposed to its Anglo Saxon equivalent - both now perfectly good English words which 'mean' exactly the same thing but 'mean' distinctly different things at the same time.

TJ: We aren't connecting. I recognize I don't know enough about Japanese language, or culture, to make any firm conclusions. And Japanese language and culture is not the same consideration of the 15 people who want to keep some dying Native Language going as they have nothing better to do after collecting their welfare checks from the Native Community Center.

I often think and say: "Pros and Cons" to every decision made. Do you recognize any "cons" in the functionality of Japanese written language? I"ll go first: for English, the irregular verbs could be cleaned up without valuable loss of their cultural precedents.

Your turn.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Poodle wrote:I have to completely support TJ's advocacy of preserving the cultural element in any linguistic system, including spelling.

Excellent whole post. Wrong...but well stated. Lots of "heart." Whats the difference in preserving the heritage inherent in language versus any other cultural artifact? I'm thinking right now of our great cultural heritage of agriculture. Why have we given up shitting where we drink and growing our own food? close to the earth, the smell of it, the direct connectedness? ....................Oh, the humanity of pulling up your own self grown carrot.

Corporate agriculture feeds the masses, and the masses don't want to go backwards. Not so for language, but its the same thing. Its just easier for those in power to continue on. Imposing their pseudo superior knowledge onto the kiddies. Keeps them (the kiddies) off the streets..........that sense of "accomplishment."

Poodle wrote:Latin 'coitus' as opposed to its Anglo Saxon equivalent - both now perfectly good English words which 'mean' exactly the same thing but 'mean' distinctly different things at the same time.

Ummm..... there is only one English word coitus. What you talkin' bout Willis?

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Poodle wrote:There are two English words (with long histories) meaning exactly the same thing - one from Latin and the other from Old English (Anglo Saxon). We get all of our best swear-words from Anglo Saxon.

You're right. Somehow, merde doesn't have the same gravity as scheiße.

"Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge."—Carl Sagan

"Every philosophy is tinged with the coloring of some secret imaginative background, which never emerges explicitly into its train of reasoning."—Alfred North Whitehead

"Knowledge belongs to humanity, and is the torch which illuminates the world."—Louis Pasteur

Well, I'm not following either of you. Sad, BECAUSE I love instances of things being the same yet different at the same time. but on this particular subject, I think I'm just being coitused.

I take the failure to provide specific explanation as a failure to admit to a misstatement..........until remedied.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ: We aren't connecting. I recognize I don't know enough about Japanese language, or culture, to make any firm conclusions. And Japanese language and culture is not the same consideration of the 15 people who want to keep some dying Native Language going as they have nothing better to do after collecting their welfare checks from the Native Community Center.

I often think and say: "Pros and Cons" to every decision made. Do you recognize any "cons" in the functionality of Japanese written language? I"ll go first: for English, the irregular verbs could be cleaned up without valuable loss of their cultural precedents.

Your turn.

Of course there are things I don`t like with Japanese, but that isn`t the same as saying I would advocate a change that would render the language unusable, or strip it of historical and cultural context. There are bodies that advocate changes, such as restricting names to specific and listed kanji characters, and I am quite happy for them to do their best.

Personally I don`t see your interest or angst with 15 people who want to maintain a dying language. But then I do personally enjoy visiting museums, growing my own veggies, and seeing `old school` solutions still being used. The Amish jump to mind, still using draft horses to till their land and in some cases still speaking German. It isn`t a case that they are going to force their way, or language, upon you – so why do you care?

1. "Of course there are things I don`t like with Japanese, but that isn`t the same as saying I would advocate a change that would render the language unusable, or strip it of historical and cultural context. There are bodies that advocate changes, such as restricting names to specific and listed kanji characters, and I am quite happy for them to do their best." /// And the simple question is "why not?" As in SPECIFICALLY. You know: moving on "for the future" making the history, culture "even better" for future generations. All you are saying in fact is "lets not change because this is the way we have always done it." This is the argument/position/emotions/perceptions/values/unrecognized obstinacy/relentless obstreperous interference with PROGRESS that is always brought forth. Its why USA won't go Metric. What is the point of language/writing except to communicate? If before and after "X" one can still fully communicate all ideas with all the subtleties and precision desired and post X is easier to learn and remember and apply and cheaper to support, why not change? There is nothing stripped or made unusable....society just finds a better way to do the same things...... or it doesn't. You argue for doesn't, I argue for Let's do it. Lets go Metric. Lets go Phonic Japanese.

2. "Personally I don`t see your interest or angst with 15 people who want to maintain a dying language." /// I get tired of saying the same thing over and over so I change it up. The original complaint was 15 people being able to build and run Casinos when other people are not allowed to do so. Its discrimination. Its bad social policy. Language, gambling, fishing, hunting, reserved areas: why make artificial winners and losers based on some historical happenstance when OVERRIDING ALL THIS is the fact we are all the same, and our society should treat us all the same?

3. "But then I do personally enjoy visiting museums, growing my own veggies, and seeing `old school` solutions still being used." /// Yes, and you should be free to do so BUT without my tax dollars going to support your personal druthers AND without you having the legal right to exclude others from doing the same on your reservation.

4. "The Amish jump to mind, still using draft horses to till their land and in some cases still speaking German. It isn`t a case that they are going to force their way, or language, upon you – so why do you care? /// The Amish are an excellent example. Adhering to their heritage and culture WITHOUT SPECIAL LEGAL STATUS. No Amish court system (sic), no Amish demand for tax dollars or special protections or laws. etc.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Since when is advocating treating all people with the same rights and obligations being obstreperous? Its merely the history and culture of the evolving Constitution of the USA. A steady march to freedom and equality before the law...overcoming the history and culture of the overly privileged and advantaged wanting to keep it that way.

I know since when. Since forever and always.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

1. "Of course there are things I don`t like with Japanese, but that isn`t the same as saying I would advocate a change that would render the language unusable, or strip it of historical and cultural context. There are bodies that advocate changes, such as restricting names to specific and listed kanji characters, and I am quite happy for them to do their best." /// And the simple question is "why not?" As in SPECIFICALLY. You know: moving on "for the future" making the history, culture "even better" for future generations. All you are saying in fact is "lets not change because this is the way we have always done it." This is the argument/position/emotions/perceptions/values/unrecognized obstinacy/relentless obstreperous interference with PROGRESS that is always brought forth. Its why USA won't go Metric. What is the point of language/writing except to communicate? If before and after "X" one can still fully communicate all ideas with all the subtleties and precision desired and post X is easier to learn and remember and apply and cheaper to support, why not change? There is nothing stripped or made unusable....society just finds a better way to do the same things...... or it doesn't. You argue for doesn't, I argue for Let's do it. Lets go Metric. Lets go Phonic Japanese.

It seems that you didn`t understand. Phonetic Japanese doesn`t exist without the written language, including those kanjis. When I tell someone my address, I first say it (phonetic) and then I describe one of the kanjis used, since it has numerous homonyms. Sure, phonetic Japanese works for children - since they are only discussing play. But by middle school, kanji are necessary to everyday communication and more so if one is to discuss any topic in depth.

2. "Personally I don`t see your interest or angst with 15 people who want to maintain a dying language." /// I get tired of saying the same thing over and over so I change it up. The original complaint was 15 people being able to build and run Casinos when other people are not allowed to do so. Its discrimination. Its bad social policy. Language, gambling, fishing, hunting, reserved areas: why make artificial winners and losers based on some historical happenstance when OVERRIDING ALL THIS is the fact we are all the same, and our society should treat us all the same?

And I thought this was addressed by treaties between nations - hence my question of which nations laws should apply. Now if you advocate new wars, or even just abrogation of treaties, fine - but I don`t.

3. "But then I do personally enjoy visiting museums, growing my own veggies, and seeing `old school` solutions still being used." /// Yes, and you should be free to do so BUT without my tax dollars going to support your personal druthers AND without you having the legal right to exclude others from doing the same on your reservation.

See above.

4. "The Amish jump to mind, still using draft horses to till their land and in some cases still speaking German. It isn`t a case that they are going to force their way, or language, upon you – so why do you care? /// The Amish are an excellent example. Adhering to their heritage and culture WITHOUT SPECIAL LEGAL STATUS. No Amish court system (sic), no Amish demand for tax dollars or special protections or laws. etc.

Good to see you aren`t completely at odds with people enjoying themselves within their country - just so long as it is your country.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?