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In my opinion, the state of Mukti is knowing and living the truth. It is knowing what to say, what to do, what to direct ones thoughts, what to eat, who to love, who to forgive, who to stand up to, it is knowing how the world operates and walking by that rythmn.

I don't think that is mukti, that is how we are supposed to be in 'gurmatbehaviour'
It certainly helps to get to the stage of mukti, but that's what I think it is as well- a stage OR 'The stage'
I don't think that it is a 'state' as you refer to above. Because a 'state' is stage or one's current confined condition or being and they can normally exit from this into another state. Whereas mukti is much more permanent and attained.

I don't think that just being gurmat in behaviour is enough to be enlightened. There is much more than that especially with finding that frontier where one can be at rest and residing within the lord's mansion.
I believe that this requires a lot of self effort.

Quote: I doubt that such ideas are expressed in the Vedas, it is way too foolish. I suspect that it is more the opponent's own interpretation made in order to highlight and give credibility to his own views.

And how do you know who is a sant?
Do you not have to have equal or greater morals to recognize someone with great moral integrity? Do you not have to be wise in order to know who is wise? The former would require close association for a lengthy period of time and the latter would require some discussion / questioning. So what use is there really, to wonder about whether this person or that person is liberated? And to begin with, what is it to be liberated? In other words, why this talk about Mukti?!

- One is not supposed to disappear into the wilderness to enhance in spirituality but is to live and earn in society as a householder.

You start off with the preconceived notion that a person *must* live and earn in society. This is already misleading. The point is to understand oneself as one is; hence the idea of changing one's circumstance in order to enhance this is wrong.

A person may become a recluse as a result of seeing the danger of sensuous attachment and dustiness of the household life, and therefore learn to live a life whereby these are minimized. This of course is not the path to liberation, but suppression of the particular unwanted tendencies. If however, such a person comes to understand the correct path to liberation, he is not expected to then change and come back to live the life of a householder, but to continue develop understanding in the particular situation that he is in.

You have made the householder life an ideal, and this is wrong.

I mean how can a businessman or some other strong pillar of society be able to detach and not let worldly factors affect them and attain mukti ?

I can see that you truly believe that fulfilling one's place in society is part of the way to liberation. I think this in fact, is a great obstacle to this happening. It is being caught up in Maya and the encouragement of worldly values. And does not liberation include the ability to see through maya?

If you wish to understand, better talk about what wisdom is and what it understands. It is pointless to think in terms of businessmen and pillars of society and then speculate whether or not they can attain liberation. Doing so is the reason why the confusion will only increase.

And how do you know who is a sant?
Do you not have to have equal or greater morals to recognize someone with great moral integrity? Do you not have to be wise in order to know who is wise? The former would require close association for a lengthy period of time and the latter would require some discussion / questioning. So what use is there really, to wonder about whether this person or that person is liberated? And to begin with, what is it to be liberated? In other words, why this talk about Mukti?!

If we are blessed to cross paths with a true Sant i.e. one that has 'become' or 'attained' (whatever you want to call it) what SGGS Ji is directing us towards, then i'm sure you'll know
We should never go looking for a Sant...if our heart truely yearns for God, and our development requires some assistance from a Sant, then i'm sure He will find you

In the end we have to defeat/overcome the stranglehold of the 5 thieves. It's probably very easy to think that we have done this when secluded in the mountains where there is no slander, provocation, anger, hate towards you. In a householders life, we come across this all the time...situations bring out the worst in us, so that we come face to face with our inner 5 thieves, acknowledge them, and then through Simran/Seva we can overcome their effects.

I can see that you truly believe that fulfilling one's place in society is part of the way to liberation. I think this in fact, is a great obstacle to this happening. It is being caught up in Maya and the encouragement of worldly values. And does not liberation include the ability to see through maya?

pranavath naanak guramukh shhoottas raam naam liv laagee ||4||2||3||prays Nanak, as Gurmukh, he is released. He is lovingly attuned to the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||4||||2||3|| 1126

Isnt the point to be detached from it all, whilst being in the midst of it all? to fulfil your duties to family, comunity, seva but at the same time not being attached to them all. to be surrounded by greed, hate, anger, lust, ego, yet unafected by it all.

From Gurbanee one can learn that
Human Birth is an oppotunity to Know the CREATOR /ITS NAAMu.

Mukati is purely on account of grace of the CREATOR and this can happen
in any living form.Thus human form is not a sole criterion for Mukati

Since in Gurbanee GuRu and what we know as GOD are same.As GuRu can be known
so GOD can be known .This is very clear in Gurbanee.

As a matter of fact I find that one is understanding GuRu and GOD as different .
Actually both are Same.One should try to understand this.

In fact everything of the Universe is supported with NAAMu and is tuned with NAAMu .Since human Form is out of tune with NAAMu under the influence of MAYA
there is need of tuning by way of JAP/Simran of NAAMu.

From Gurbanee one can learn that
Human Birth is an oppotunity to Know the CREATOR /ITS NAAMu.

Mukati is purely on account of grace of the CREATOR and this can happen
in any living form.Thus human form is not a sole criterion for Mukati

Since in Gurbanee GuRu and what we know as GOD are same.As GuRu can be known
so GOD can be known .This is very clear in Gurbanee.

As a matter of fact I find that one is understanding GuRu and GOD as different .
Actually both are Same.One should try to understand this.

In fact everything of the Universe is supported with NAAMu and is tuned with NAAMu .Since human Form is out of tune with NAAMu under the influence of MAYA
there is need of tuning by way of JAP/Simran of NAAMu.

If we are blessed to cross paths with a true Sant i.e. one that has 'become' or 'attained' (whatever you want to call it) what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is directing us towards, then i'm sure you'll know
We should never go looking for a Sant...if our heart truely yearns for God, and our development requires some assistance from a Sant, then i'm sure He will find you

In the end we have to defeat/overcome the stranglehold of the 5 thieves. It's probably very easy to think that we have done this when secluded in the mountains where there is no slander, provocation, anger, hate towards you.

What about ignorance? Can one not with ignorance, want to fight the five thieves? Would this then not be motivated by Lobh, one of the same five thieves? If the motivation to go to the mountains is to reduce anger etc. then this must be Lobh (and wrong understanding) and this is wrong practice, which as you point out, comes with the illusion of result. But is this not also the case with your belief namely:

“In a householders life, we come across this all the time...situations bring out the worst in us, so that we come face to face with our inner 5 thieves, acknowledge them, and then through Simran/Seva we can overcome their effects.”

Just as the person who thinks he can develop more understanding by going off into the mountains, your insistence on living the life of a householder is associated with the idea of a better time, place and situation. The desire / ambition, the ignorance and the wrong understanding are imo, the same?
Besides do you not take your attachment, aversion and ignorance with you wherever you go?

But as I said, in the case of someone who decides on the life of a recluse, this may come naturally as a result of seeing the harm in sensuous attachment and dustiness of the household life. If this is the case, then he must see attachment in relation to all the experience through the senses, whether here or there. The point of seclusion is to minimize distractions so that one can practice to attain states of concentrative absorption, and this implies that the person knows that when not in the state, attachment will take reign. For such a person what are the chances that ambition will influence the outcome?

On the other hand, your view about practice is a general recommendation and does not take into account the fact of ignorance and desire as motivating force. This would make it the opposite of what it takes for any kind of unwholesome tendency to be overcome. It is wisdom which understands and finally gets rid of anger, attachment, conceit and so on. And wisdom is the opposite of ignorance. Wisdom does not desire and does not mind what the object is; it functions to shed light on the reality of the moment. From this it can be seen then, that it is “ignorance” which is the real enemy and not attachment, aversion, conceit etc. Moreover, the path is that of “detachment”. To choose a situation and attempt at creating conditions whereby understanding can be developed is the opposite of detachment.

And one more thing. You argue that those who go to the mountains end up possibly being fooled into thinking that they are without the five thieves. A more real danger as far as I have seen, is that those who believe that the householder's life is ideal, end up in the course of their lives, making justification for all kinds of unwholesome actions, e.g. doing this or that for the family. I am quite sure that you have encountered many Sikhs making the kind of justification.

Isnt the point to be detached from it all, whilst being in the midst of it all? to fulfil your duties to family, comunity, seva but at the same time not being attached to them all. to be surrounded by greed, hate, anger, lust, ego, yet unafected by it all.

Perhaps Guru Nanak in pointing out one wrong attitude with regard to becoming a recluse did not mean to make the householder's life the ideal, but this was a wrong conclusion drawn by some of his followers?

Confused;175341
What about ignorance? Can one not with ignorance, want to fight the five thieves? Would this then not be motivated by Lobh, one of the same five thieves? If the motivation to go to the mountains is to reduce anger etc. then this must be Lobh (and wrong understanding) and this is wrong practice, which as you point out, comes with the illusion of result. But is this not also the case with your belief namely:

In this world of duality (world of opposites) you have to do one or the other...or a bit of both. if you want to find a lost belonging, you can look for it in the DARK, or look for it in the LIGHT...neither is right or wrong..but it may be more easier in the LIGHT...agree?

if you are on the 5th floor of a building...and want to get to the bottom...you can either jump out the window...or you can go down the stairs....both will take you to your destination...so neither is right or wrong....so which method would you chose?

Just as the person who thinks he can develop more understanding by going off into the mountains, your insistence on living the life of a householder is associated with the idea of a better time, place and situation. The desire / ambition, the ignorance and the wrong understanding are imo, the same?

Besides do you not take your attachment, aversion and ignorance with you wherever you go?

yes ofcourse, it goes with you everywhere. you are making big assumptions into what i am saying...my "insistence"?i'm not insisting one way or the other. I'm mereley saying you either have to be in one place or the other...thats life....you will find yourself wherver your destiny takes you....ignorance is in thinking we have control over these things...but we dont...all we do is prepare ouselves complete surrender of mind, body and wealth. in my brief experience of seva of amrit vela simran, doing charity, and giving dasvandh, all i'm doing is preparing for complete surrender...bit by bit i am laying down everything for God.....even that in the end is not our doing...it's all him

We are just the experiencer this is what i am experiencing in my Amrit Vela...pretty quickly you start to realise that all is in his will...ignorance soon starts to dissapear.

On the other hand, your view about practice is a general recommendation and does not take into account the fact of ignorance and desire as motivating force. This would make it the opposite of what it takes for any kind of unwholesome tendency to be overcome. It is wisdom which understands and finally gets rid of anger, attachment, conceit and so on. And wisdom is the opposite of ignorance. Wisdom does not desire and does not mind what the object is;

Again Ji, you make some good points about desire and ignorance...but you are assuming those are my driving forces....maybe they are to some extent.. all i know is in the state i am in I am not my TRUE Self...my TRUE self is my TRUE state. complete surrener at the feet of my Guru is the focus, and for me this is to give up my time, energy, wealth and mind, which was never mine in the first place...after that i go wherever HE takes me...i cannot do anything on my own...no EGO...there is only HIM...satnaam

And one more thing. You argue that those who go to the mountains end up possibly being fooled into thinking that they are without the five thieves. A more real danger as far as I have seen, is that those who believe that the householder's life is ideal, end up in the course of their lives, making justification for all kinds of unwholesome actions, e.g. doing this or that for the family. I am quite sure that you have encountered many Sikhs making the kind of justification.

eikanaa no thoo(n) mael laihi eik aapahu thudhh khuaaeiaa ||Some, You unite with Yourself, and some, You lead astray. 469

I cannot judge anyone else when it is god who leads astray or unites us. All is Him...The ignorance is when We think we are seprate to HIM and act upon our own will... you will end up in the mountains or within the life of a householder upon his will....and depending on what HE thinks you need to experience, you'll either be led astray or united. on the mountain or as a householder...

Me personally, i have an inner pull to help others, do seva and make myself usefull as i take my own inner journey. Maybe this what he ordain for me?

Yes, detachment. But this is impossible if the householder's life is made into an ideal, since this is motivated by ignorance and attachment, the opposite of wisdom and detachment.

We're does widom come from? it comes from HIM, when we moce closer to our TRUE selves, our TRUE state of being, i assume wisdom will naturally come to us...until then, we are all affected by ignorance to varying degrees....ego created ignorance. all of what we do will to some extent be based on desire, and ignorance...you cannot just remove it.

but we can SUrrender day by day, bit by bit and mind body and wealth....what happens after that is all his grace. all is his grace anyway

Perhaps Guru Nanak in pointing out one wrong attitude with regard to becoming a recluse did not mean to make the householder's life the ideal, but this was a wrong conclusion drawn by some of his followers?

Maybe, or maybe he realised that to help uplift others, he had to be amongst them. either way...the kahani, the story, the play is written by Him....lets just keep surrending, and hopefully He hears our heartfelt cries and yearning.

our actions can be driven by True love or they can be driven by desire. It's a thin line, and only by surrendering can we cross it, and when we do He'll be there to uplift us further.

mukti or breaking away from cycles of birth and death is only attained thru the GRACE of god.. GRACE means the return love of god to us.. so first we must love god.. without love no GRACE.. only grace of god washes our totall sins, then only mukti is attained..

This may well be by all means.
But the objective is to focus on what we do know as mukti according to gurbani.
My concerns are some of the questions such as
-How do you know if another mahapursh, sant or bhai saab has attained mukti ?
- One is not supposed to disappear into the wilderness to enhance in spirituality but is to live and earn in society as a householder. Then how exactly can one attain mukti whilst fulfilling all these roles.
I mean how can a businessman or some other strong pillar of society be able to detach and not let worldly factors affect them and attain mukti ?
It's not that straight cut is it ?

Gurbani teaches us to be like the lotus flower in murky water-a beacon of hope and beauty in this crazy world!! It is not for us to judge others and whether they have become mukht but to focus on our own journey and spiritual development. Instead we can influence the world with our own positivity. I think people who become recluse are selfish as they think of their own spirituality only and not the spiritual health of the world.

As far as I understand, if we have a strong moral compass and we develop inner peace from being Gurmukhs, we will obtain liberation from the hold of maya and be able to function in the world without being dirtied by it (quite the opposite). This is jeevan mukti.

On a practical level, do your job as honestly as possible, don't deal with things that don't agree with your morals even if it leads to loss, share your time and money with those who need it, treat others with courtesy, be generous in your thoughts as well as your deeds. These will help in liberating you from the stranglehold of the 5 which pull people back. Once that stranglehold is broken, mukti can be achieved.

The lotus in the mud is an age old Indian metaphor. It applies very much to living in the world. The lotus is the soul and the world is you, your body, thoughts, ideas, concepts, other people, their thoughts, ideas etc, and everything of this world. It is not to be taken to it's extreme form of paranoia. Rather seen as the lotus transcending it's environment not living separately though, because it cannot, but transcending it and not getting affected by the external world.

For many people the external world is outside of themselves, where they are their thoughts, emotions, ideas, beliefs, concepts and the world is everything else, like people, and jobs, etc. What is to be understood here with this metaphor is that the mud also includes these things, the thoughts, ideas, beliefs, emotions etc, as well as anything external. So the lotus is that which is aware of thoughts, emotions, ideas and beliefs, and the idea is to transcend these.

Om Mani Padme Hum
Om I am the jewel in the lotus. or Om I am the wisdom of the lotus.

In this world of duality (world of opposites) you have to do one or the other...or a bit of both. if you want to find a lost belonging, you can look for it in the DARK, or look for it in the LIGHT...neither is right or wrong..but it may be more easier in the LIGHT...agree?

The only light is wisdom. What you are suggesting is that it is easier to know the five thieves when living the life of householder as these make themselves known more clearly. But as I said, wisdom is the only light and when it arises, does not mind what the object is. Any other kind of knowing, as in any Chaz, Confused and Harry knowing, I am angry, I am jealous, I am attached or I understand, is knowing by way of ignorance, attachment and self-view, which is just another trick within maya.
Duality / Non-dual are a Hindu concepts which has no place in my way of thinking.

if you are on the 5th floor of a building...and want to get to the bottom...you can either jump out the window...or you can go down the stairs....both will take you to your destination...so neither is right or wrong....so which method would you chose?

I don't understand your point. But why would any normal person choose jumping out the window?

Just as the person who thinks he can develop more understanding by going off into the mountains, your insistence on living the life of a householder is associated with the idea of a better time, place and situation. The desire / ambition, the ignorance and the wrong understanding are imo, the same?

Besides do you not take your attachment, aversion and ignorance with you wherever you go?

Above, you do appear to be suggesting that the householder’s life is more ideal than that of the recluse….

i'm not insisting one way or the other. I'm mereley saying you either have to be in one place or the other...thats life....you will find yourself wherver your destiny takes you....ignorance is in thinking we have control over these things...but we dont...all we do is prepare ouselves complete surrender of mind, body and wealth.

Well, can you choose to do this? I don't believe in destiny. Each moment is conditioned, but nothing is predetermined. It is insusceptible to the control of will precisely because it has arisen and already fallen away by the time it is known, not because there is something behind pulling the strings. No need to surrender, just develop better understanding, not of how and why, but just what *is*.

in my brief experience of seva of amrit vela simran, doing charity, and giving dasvandh, all i'm doing is preparing for complete surrender...bit by bit i am laying down everything for God.....even that in the end is not our doing...it's all him

Your understanding about ignorance and what it is to know is very different from mine.
According to me, ignorance is defined in relation to the Four Noble Truths. Ignorance is therefore of a) Dukkha or the insubstantial nature of all conditioned existence; b) Tanha or the greed which longs after these insubstantial realities leading to continued existence; c) Nirvana or the unconditioned / release and d) the Eightfold Path leading to this release, which is wisdom itself.

Knowledge and understanding of these four Truths are developed within three broad stages. And I would be at the first steps of the first stage and expect to remain around there for another million lifetimes or so.

On the other hand, your view about practice is a general recommendation and does not take into account the fact of ignorance and desire as motivating force. This would make it the opposite of what it takes for any kind of unwholesome tendency to be overcome. It is wisdom which understands and finally gets rid of anger, attachment, conceit and so on. And wisdom is the opposite of ignorance. Wisdom does not desire and does not mind what the object is;

maybe they are to some extent.. all i know is in the state i am in I am not my TRUE Self...my TRUE self is my TRUE state. complete surrener at the feet of my Guru is the focus, and for me this is to give up my time, energy, wealth and mind, which was never mine in the first place...after that i go wherever HE takes me...i cannot do anything on my own...no EGO...there is only HIM...satnaam

This is strange. You study in order to be able to distinguish / judge, yet you hesitate to point out what is right and what is wrong when it is time to do so…? Are you trying to make an excuse for God, namely why there exists both good and evil, ignorance and wisdom, right and wrong?

All is Him...The ignorance is when We think we are seprate to HIM and act upon our own will... you will end up in the mountains or within the life of a householder upon his will....and depending on what HE thinks you need to experience, you'll either be led astray or united. on the mountain or as a householder...

We're does widom come from? it comes from HIM, when we moce closer to our TRUE selves, our TRUE state of being, i assume wisdom will naturally come to us...until then, we are all affected by ignorance to varying degrees....ego created ignorance. all of what we do will to some extent be based on desire, and ignorance...you cannot just remove it.

Yes, ignorance and desire will be there for a long, long time to come. But this will only increase if we do not acknowledge their influence and worse, if we mistake them for some kind of good. It is because of ignorance that there is conceit, not the other way round. .

but we can SUrrender day by day, bit by bit and mind body and wealth....what happens after that is all his grace. all is his grace anyway

If it is not understanding that is seen as key, then whatever else that is being referred to must be in reality, ignorance and attachment coming in the name of something good.

Maybe, or maybe he realised that to help uplift others, he had to be amongst them. either way...the kahani, the story, the play is written by Him....lets just keep surrending, and hopefully He hears our heartfelt cries and yearning.

our actions can be driven by True love or they can be driven by desire. It's a thin line, and only by surrendering can we cross it, and when we do He'll be there to uplift us further.

Gurbani teaches us to be like the lotus flower in murky water-a beacon of hope and beauty in this crazy world!! It is not for us to judge others and whether they have become mukht but to focus on our own journey and spiritual development. Instead we can influence the world with our own positivity. I think people who become recluse are selfish as they think of their own spirituality only and not the spiritual health of the world.

So is this a judgement or what?
The Mahayana school of Buddhism criticizes the Theravada school of the same thing, namely that it is selfish. They believe in the Bodhisatta ideal which states that one should practices in order to help others become enlightened before one becomes enlightened oneself. But this is absolutely dumb. (They would do well to take a lesson from the safety advice in airplanes; one about the adult applying the oxygen mask on himself before attending to a child.) A little understanding will reveal the extent of one's own ignorance and craving, which means that any ideal to save the world is in fact aimed at one's own self interest.

[quote:chazSingh]
if you are on the 5th floor of a building...and want to get to the bottom...you can either jump out the window...or you can go down the stairs....both will take you to your destination...so neither is right or wrong....so which method would you chose?

I don't understand your point. But why would any normal person choose jumping out the window?

The point is their is no right or wrong way...but there is always a better way. jumping out the window will get you to the ground floor...but we can all agree walking down the stairs is the better way

Well, can you choose to do this? I don't believe in destiny. Each moment is conditioned, but nothing is predetermined. It is insusceptible to the control of will precisely because it has arisen and already fallen away by the time it is known, not because there is something behind pulling the strings. No need to surrender, just develop better understanding, not of how and why, but just what *is*.

We're all caught up in this...we wouldnt be sat here discussing views on a forum if we weren't

This is strange. You study in order to be able to distinguish / judge, yet you hesitate to point out what is right and what is wrong when it is time to do so…? Are you trying to make an excuse for God, namely why there exists both good and evil, ignorance and wisdom, right and wrong?

Please explain to me how an 'experience' can exist, if the opposite didnt exists inorder to compare it with.
If Cold didnt exist, would you have the experience of Hot...would you even need a word to describe the experience? the experience itself would cease to exists.

only god exists:
thoo(n) aapae dhaathaaaapae bhugathaa jee ho thudhh bin avar n jaanaa ||You Yourself are the Giver, and You Yourself are the Enjoyer. I know no other than You.

Yes, ignorance and desire will be there for a long, long time to come. But this will only increase if we do not acknowledge their influence and worse, if we mistake them for some kind of good. It is because of ignorance that there is conceit, not the other way round. .

situations in life i desined for us to learn from.
A guy looking for a partner, get declined over and over agan by the opposite sex...he worries, gets upset, questions the way he looks, tries to change his appearance...his mind is entangled with wanting acceptance...to be accepted...the need to feel accepted.
at some point, after another rejection, he thinks differently and says "i am the way i am, sod stressing myself about this, there are more important things to think about"

He eventually is freed from the clutches of wanting to be accepted. you could say enlightened to some extent and his consciosness raises a level and life changes as a result.

some may be able to overcome the need to be accepted in the mountains, for others they lession is learnt amongst people.

Satnama Ji, All of us in our posts use the words, i believe, i think, i understand, in my opinion. All of these words are used because none of us actually know..

until we walk the walk...do our amrit vela simran, seva...we will never actually know for sure...we will never go past the mind.

To be clear, according to me, leading the life of a recluse vs. the householder are not two different *ways* to reach the Truth. They simply reflect difference in accumulated tendencies of more or less similar kind to that which distinguishes between say, an artist vs. a politician. As I said, the ideal recluse is a natural outcome of the accumulated inclination to seeing the harm in sensuous attachments. Such a person will find himself seeking to avoid sense contacts so as to be able to maintain wholesome states of mind. It is like having come to see the strong heat in living the household life; he knows how this can be avoided. And like I said, this is *not* the path to Truth.

However, just as it is with the householder, if such a person does come to know what the path to Truth is, he will not think to change his lifestyle / circumstance, but continue to develop understanding in whatever situation he finds himself in. Just as for the householder, his indulgence to sense objects will not suddenly disappear, the recluse's movement away from sense pleasures will continue.

Understanding still only keeps you within the confines of the mind...god is beyond understanding....understanding to a point just quietens the mind...keeps it happy so that the real bagti can start

Would not the concept of God require “understanding” to have any meaning?
What do you understand by “understanding” and what decides that this understanding has its limits and can at some point, be rejected? And what is it that judges something else as more valuable?

This will sound assuming, but I doubt that you understand what self-view is. Because while I may sometimes fall prey to it, I know not to encourage it when making a statement about what is the Path and what is not the Path. You on the other hand are suggesting a path involving self-view, and this would make it in fact the wrong path. In other words, in my case, self-view arises in spite of some understanding about its wrongness, but in your case it arises not only because you do not know what it is, but because you actually encourage it in the name of right.

Quote: This is strange. You study in order to be able to distinguish / judge, yet you hesitate to point out what is right and what is wrong when it is time to do so…? Are you trying to make an excuse for God, namely why there exists both good and evil, ignorance and wisdom, right and wrong?

There is just what *is*.
Attachment is known for what it is not because it stands in contrast to detachment, but because it is a reality with a particular characteristic, function, manifestation and with particular set of proximate cause. Likewise aversion, ignorance, detachment, wisdom, these are all realities known not because of the existence of some opposite, but because they are very *real* when conditioned to arise.

If Cold didnt exist, would you have the experience of Hot...would you even need a word to describe the experience? the experience itself would cease to exists.

“God is a fiction, a lie. Oh no, he is the great Deceiver. He is great, powerful, and omniscient. Divine is his creation. Divine am I. He is praising himself through me. He is someone who has nothing better to do but play games / masturbate. He is me. He is not me. Psychotic, schizophrenic am I, is He.”

Would you not naturally be inclined to identify the cause for such utterance as existing within me, unrelated to anyone or anything else? You find the God concept appealing, but does it not come with contradictions?

This is only wishful thinking. And we don’t learn the Truth from “situations”, but from the realities that make up our moment to moment experience.

We are born to receive the fruits of our actions, the rest depends on the accumulated tendencies, whether we plant seeds for more going round the cycle of existence, or gradually getting off it. By comparison only a handful makes up the latter.

A guy looking for a partner, get declined over and over agan by the opposite sex...he worries, gets upset, questions the way he looks, tries to change his appearance...his mind is entangled with wanting acceptance...to be accepted...the need to feel accepted.
at some point, after another rejection, he thinks differently and says "i am the way i am, sod stressing myself about this, there are more important things to think about"

He eventually is freed from the clutches of wanting to be accepted. you could say enlightened to some extent and his consciosness raises a level and life changes as a result.

some may be able to overcome the need to be accepted in the mountains, for others they lession is learnt amongst people.

When it comes to the matter of seeing the value of good and the harm in evil, and the development of wisdom and reduction of ignorance, the above again is only wishful thinking.
Wrong does not lead to right. Good is developed on the basis of good in the past, wisdom on wisdom in the past. Normally what happens is that one learns to avoid particular situations where attachment just finds a different object to cling to. And one of these objects happens to be the idea that one has learnt from / seen through certain situations / grown wiser. This is why I said that understanding the Truth is not based on concepts of situations, but on reality. And the test of this is “now”.

Would not the concept of God require “understanding” to have any meaning?
What do you understand by “understanding” and what decides that this understanding has its limits and can at some point, be rejected? And what is it that judges something else as more valuable?

if you've never seen or eaten an apple before...you can study all you like about what an apple looks like, what it feels like, what it tastes like...you can study other people accounts and descriptions of apples...but in the end the only way you'll 'know' what an apple feels like, tastes like is by picking one up and eating it?

so our understanding of god will only ever be unlimited until we a graced to experiencing him fully....untill then, our understanding is just mere words.

limited understanding for now can maybe provide a focus.

You are saying that he is not only the puppeteer but the puppet itself as well?

SGGS Ji 54
aapae gun aapae kathhai aapae sun veechaar ||O Lord, You are Your Own Glorious Praise. You Yourself speak it; You Yourself hear it and contemplate it.
aapae rathan parakh thoo(n) aapae mol apaar ||
You Yourself are the Jewel, and You are the Appraiser. You Yourself are of Infinite Value.

saacho maan mehath thoo(n) aapae dhaevanehaar ||1||O True Lord, You are Honor and Glory; You Yourself are the Giver. ||1||

har jeeo thoo(n) karathaa karathaar ||O Dear Lord, You are the Creator and the Cause.

aapae mothee oojalo aapae bhagath baseet(h) ||You Yourself are the perfect pearl; You Yourself are the devotee and the priest.

gur kai sabadh salaahanaa ghatt ghatt ddeet(h) addeet(h) ||2||Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, You are praised. In each and every heart, the Unseen is seen. ||2||

There is just what *is*.
Attachment is known for what it is not because it stands in contrast to detachment, but because it is a reality with a particular characteristic, function, manifestation and with particular set of proximate cause. Likewise aversion, ignorance, detachment, wisdom, these are all realities known not because of the existence of some opposite, but because they are very *real* when conditioned to arise.

Yup, so please do the above with love and devotion and maybe we will start seeing, living, and KNOWING the truth. afterall, it's a direct instruction from guru ji about how we can know god. lets put guru ji to his word and test this out?

It works for me, and by the sounds of it others on this forum as well. Give it a try for a few months and then lets talk more within the sangat about such topics.

if you've never seen or eaten an apple before...you can study all you like about what an apple looks like, what it feels like, what it tastes like...you can study other people accounts and descriptions of apples...
but in the end the only way you'll 'know' what an apple feels like, tastes like is by picking one up and eating it?

Wisdom or understanding as I use it includes the ability to distinguish between thinking and the understanding itself. Also it knows the difference between intellectual understanding (different from thinking, mind you) vs. direct understanding and direct understanding vs. penetrative insight. So someone with genuine intellectual understanding would not end up mistaking that understanding for anything higher. At the same time however, it knows the object of this understanding is the same for all three levels, which is, the reality “now”. Indeed they must conform to each other.

On the other hand, those who study about the Truth, coming to a reasoned conclusion about it, and are attached to the kind of study and never any bending of mind to the present moment, are involved in the process of holding the snake by the wrong end. This will never lead to any direct understanding but likely to practices amounting to the following of rules and rituals.

so our understanding of god will only ever be unlimited until we a graced to experiencing him fully....untill then, our understanding is just mere words.
limited understanding for now can maybe provide a focus.

As stated above, the difference between intellectual understanding, direct understanding and penetrative insight, is only a matter of depth. It is therefore not “mere words” to have intellectual understanding. The understanding / wisdom however, is the same mental factor, only becoming stronger as it more often arises. Indeed enlightenment is the function of wisdom / understanding at its highest strength.

You were suggesting that understanding be dropped at some point. And in saying that in the beginning it is mere words, you are actually pointing to a process not involving wisdom, but something else. If you insist that understanding is involved, then the question is, does the beginning knowledge conform to that at the end? If you say it is faith, is this faith founded on understanding or something else, and what would that be?

Something being opposite to something else is just an idea / concept.
Attachment when arisen, is known by the characteristic that it exhibits and not because there exists some opposite mental state to compare with. You were suggesting that one can't be known without the other.

What is attachment the opposite of and why?

Again this goes back to how much we can understand god without fully experiencing Him. Until we fully experience him, the contradictions, the doubts, the questions remain...and will always remain.

As I suggested above, knowledge at the beginning, the middle and the end must all conform to each other. Doubt is a direct hindrance to wisdom. That you accept that there must be contradictions is indication that yours, is not about the development of wisdom / understanding. Indeed that you refer to “experience” in contrast to “understanding” just confirms this.

The importance of gurmat mukti is that it is towards the supreme one God only and no other.
In contrast we have other definitions for other faiths and the other vedic types thst were mentioned earlier.
Not all of these are concepts designed towards the akaal purakh only as some of them are towards different gods and deities.