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How about you be more specific. *What* dream is over? It's interesting that you pick the word "dream" as for me personally, I do see this as sort of an awakening.

BTW, I spent the day in seclusion doing iaido (Tim, I guess I should say Iai Batto Ho ), zazen, and the body conditioning exercises. It's amazing how the exercises tune the body awareness. I could really feel the effect when sitting.......

No offense but that's just silly. The ten best fighters in the world will have MMA backgrounds (formal or not) you can bet on that. They will also spend their entire careers fighting, many on a daily basis, and training to fight.

I think its highly unlikely for a master of any single traditional martial art to be able to step in the ring with someone who is a trained MMA fighter and win. In fact, the early UFCs proved this to be true.

IMO, there isn't one aikido shihan, whom I can think of, that would survive one round in a professional MMA bout with the top dogs (pick any champion from any matching weight class). The ones that I'm thinking of would certainly have the mental conditioning but their bodies are too broken up, they wouldn't have the physical conditioning, and don't have a complete skillset necessary to fight that sort of fight. To even make the comparison is IMO stupid.

To bring this back around I heard Dan say (I'm going to paraphrase because my memory sucks) "Don't mistake this internal stuff for fighting. The body training can definitely improve your martial skill but if that's all you have, you're going to be immovable/unthrowable/etc. right until you get your ass knocked out. You need more."

Since we're playing the what if game, what if you had some young man with the skills of the top aiki masters along with the conditioning and fight specific training/experience. My guess is that he'd clean up. Point being, I believe (and I may be dreaming) that the aiki skills added to just about anything will make it better including MMA fighting.

We donot have to get the best if there is such a thing to make the point, just get some of the top aikido men and top fighters ok

end of story

stan

Ok. Define 'top' for the purposes of this sports statistic debate. Are you referring to 'top' as in 'top scorer of points in a ring of some kind'? If so can all MAs enter such a competition? Can I bring my rather sharp sword and use aiki-ken methods to dismember an unarmed opponent? What are the rules to this method of defining 'top' and/or 'best'?

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

your missing the point, take the ten best shihans ,and ten best fighters in the world. dream on if you want to.

stan

No, I am not. This just shows how ridiculous you are being.

While we are being ridiculous, allow me to take the skill set of the shihans out of their 60+ year old bodies and throw them into 20-something bodies with the conditioning for a UFC type match and the time to train and adapt their skillset to the situation and then it might be interesting.

Since when did shihan going from meaning "model teacher" - (someone whose movements are to be emulated) to meaning "ultimate fighter". Shihan of an art that is not supposed to be about fighting. Since when would I be so childish as to expect them to jump into the octagon and wipe out those who train for that environment and 1/3 their age and 2+ times their weight.

besides ten best fighters of what ? How about ten best knife fighters, ten best stick fighters, ten best gun fighters, tank fighters?

If anyone over 20 was thinking this way, which I find hard to believe, time to grow up. The octagon never was what you are
training in aikido for.

While we are being ridiculous, allow me to take the skill set of the shihans out of their 60+ year old bodies and throw them into 20-something bodies with the conditioning for a UFC type match and the time to train and adapt their skillset to the situation and then it might be interesting.

Hey, you stole my point and it's a good one. LOL

Seriously, this would be very interesting. In this regard I'm holding out hope for Jason Delucia. I think he's got the fight experience, the MMA skillset, and maybe enough of an aiki background to pull off some special stuff. Also, I don't think he is encumbered by current aikido politics.

No offense but that's just silly. The ten best fighters in the world will have MMA backgrounds (formal or not) you can bet on that. They will also spend their entire careers fighting, many on a daily basis, and training to fight.

Mark,

I think Stan's post was maybe too simplistic and provocative, but his point seems a legitimate one for consideration. Actually (and Stan can chime in here and correct me otherwise), he seems to have two points:
The first seemed to be that, without these baseline internal skills, can you even really consider aikido a martial art? Physical art of minor conflict resolution? Path of daily practice to integrate oneself physically? Great opportunity to get out of the house and meet nice people? Why not, to all of those. All healthy reasons to pursue any path of self-development
But (and I'm reading the spirit of his post here, rather than the letter) what happens when an aikidoka has to mix it up with someone who is trained in another fighting art. You mention MMA, but - and all protests of, "Aikido is not about fighting!" aside - what if (since we're playing that game...and really, isn't martial training of any kind just a physical game of what if? If there isn't that possibility of physical conflict, is it a martial art?) your average aikidoka of ten years training finds themselves with no other option but to defend themselves against someone with ten years training in another art. A single art, mind you. But one that trains aggressively, and with active resistance, from day one of training.
Consider a hellbent boxer, or grappler of any kind. A kyokushinkai student, or someone doing traditional Uechi or Goju Ryu. For the cherry on top, let's all shudder to think of a well-trained Muay Thai fighter. All of these are fighters who are used to getting hit, and striking and attacking while moving against their opponent - and under conditions of adrenalized stress.
Seriously consider that. No need to pit seasoned MMA'ers against aged shihan here, either.
Stan's second point (implied, I believe. Stan, you crafty, subtle devil) is actually encouraging, and supports what Dan and Mike (those crafty, unsubtle devils...all too busy pissing in pools, and ruining dreams of martial greatness) have been arguing. Add in internal bodywork for your average aikidoka, starting from day one, and then put them against students of another style. That would not only level the playing field, but for those aikidoka who train with active resistance against their partners, would possibly tip the scales against "external" stylists.
(btw, I don't think those styles I pitted our hapless and average ten year aikidoka against are necessarily "external." Nor do I believe that "aiki" is just in aikido, or that all y'all own it. It's just what you call it).
I know I'm preaching to the converted, Mark, about the need for these internal skills (no matter what the art), but I don't think Stan's provocation was as simplistic or naive as it seems to have been perceived. To me, it really just seemed to demand, "What's your idea of martial?" Again, if someone is not pursuing aikido to martial ends, I still consider it a deeply worthy path. But, personally, I think those aikidoka that do train with the idea that it is a martial art should be training to fight. Every day, just like folks in those other arts. And more like folks in those other arts...all the while keeping it aikido (*cough*baseline skills*cough,cough*)

Yeah I think it would. Am I losing it or do I remember the Gracies inviting Judo Gene to take part in UFC at its beginning. Would've been fun to see him in his pink keikogi in the octagon. I think he declined saying: "You nuts, I'm an old man. I'm not stupid enough to get into a ring with you guys." I think he also said that if they put their granpa in the ring with him that'd be a fair match. They declined to do so...

At least thats the story I remember, afraid I can't remember whre I heard it from sadly, it was years ago while I still used to watch UFC stuff.

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

While we are being ridiculous, allow me to take the skill set of the shihans out of their 60+ year old bodies and throw them into 20-something bodies with the conditioning for a UFC type match and the time to train and adapt their skillset to the situation and then it might be interesting.

Since when did shihan going from meaning "model teacher" - (someone whose movements are to be emulated) to meaning "ultimate fighter". Shihan of an art that is not supposed to be about fighting. Since when would I be so childish as to expect them to jump into the octagon and wipe out those who train for that environment and 1/3 their age and 2+ times their weight.

besides ten best fighters of what ? How about ten best knife fighters, ten best stick fighters, ten best gun fighters, tank fighters?

If anyone over 20 was thinking this way, which I find hard to believe, time to grow up. The octagon never was what you are
training in aikido for.

To try to add something of value to this conversation (good luck right?) Why is it you do not see this shihan level of skill in younger people? We see many amazing artists in the MMA world with great skills in their 20's and 30's, yet it seems the great examples of non sport arts are always 50+. Is this a positive or negative trait of traditional arts like aikido?

I think Stan's post was maybe too simplistic and provocative, but his point seems a legitimate one for consideration. Actually (and Stan can chime in here and correct me otherwise), he seems to have two points:
...
Best,
Murray

I think you are giving Stan way too much credit for your own thoughts on the subject. If he had articulated anything remotely on the level you are suggesting that would be different.

I don't know what an average aikidoka is but I am not losing any sleep over meeting other martial artists with the equivalent level of experience in some other martial art in a street confrontation. First, the number with over ten years experience in one art is not enough to make it even remotely likely. Second, I have had the experience of holding my own against someone of another martial art and I have seen my teacher hand someone their lunch so to speak on a number of occasions.

That's different discussion altogether than the cartoon Stan was drawing.

To try to add something of value to this conversation (good luck right?) Why is it you do not see this shihan level of skill in younger people? We see many amazing artists in the MMA world with great skills in their 20's and 30's, yet it seems the great examples of non sport arts are always 50+. Is this a positive or negative trait of traditional arts like aikido?

That's a very good question that is worth exploring. Why does the transmission of the art take so long? I've heard that Ueshiba Sensei wouldn't accept any student into his dojo unless they were already yudansha in another art. Do you think that he expected folks to already come in with good "baseline skills", conditioning, knowledge of striking/throwing/etc. and as a result taught at a high level (sort of the graduate school analogy). I know that my teacher's teacher did judo extensively before aikido as a specific example. Could it be that aikido training on top of no other martial skills is building a nice house on an unstable foundation? Could this be one reason why it takes so long? I don't know the answer but am curious as well.....

Thought it may be worth noting that Karo Parisyan, one of Gene Lebell (and Gokor C.)'s proteges is doing quite well in MMA (and doing it by being 'himself', he has more success getting pure judo throws in the MMA no-gi environment than anyone else I've seen). His only two losses that I've seen were to Georges St. Pierre (current champion) and Diego Sanchez (current phenom) and he didn't make it easy for either one.

For the cherry on top, let's all shudder to think of a well-trained Muay Thai fighter.

I began learnign aikido while studying at the University of Plymouth. There, on my first ever Saturday night outs as a student some locals decided to start a fight with us student types. Amongst those more seriously hurt was my friend Andy Black. Some people familiar with Muay Thai in the UK from the late 1990s may remember his name. The fight I mentioned was before he began learning to kickbox. But within a few years of our unfortunate encounter with the local thugs he was just about the toughest muay thai/kickboxer you were likely to meet. A middle weight, IIRC in one match he once knocked a guy out in less than ten seconds, he only hit the guy twice in order to do so once in the ribs and once in the head.

He went to fight in Thailand and fought a professional thai boxer of the same weight class. The guy hit him with an elbow, Andy wasn't aware that elbows were allowed in the rules, but no matter, it would be fun to use them anyway. The aforementioned Thai kickboxer was dragged to the side of the ring and injected with painkillers before they sewed up the 4 inch gash in the side of his head then and there at the side of the ring.

My friend Andy also entered into Vale Tudo contests put on by the University Kung Fu Club (who were basically a MMA club using the guise of Kung Fu to practice at the University), I'm afraid i can't remember how he got on in those though. I only mention them to illustrate that in addition to being a very tough kickboxer he also cross trained a lot in MMA/UFC situations.

Why am I telling you all about my old friend Andy? Because once, while I was putting the mats out before aikido he happened to be in the gym and, we as always got chatting about the martial arts practiced at the University at the time. He commented that he wasn't particularly impressed by any of the instructors, he said he knew he could beat them in most fight situations he could think of (he had trained or sparred with just about everyone except the Tai Chi instructor and the Aikido instructor). He said that the only instructor who taught at the University who he would be wary of was Geoff. My Aikido teacher, a man who at that time was in his late 50's. I said why? He said "It's his eyes"

That's why I'm still Geoff's student to this day. I don't know too much about everyone else's aikido but I know who I want to train with and learn from.

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

I think you are giving Stan way too much credit for your own thoughts on the subject. If he had articulated anything remotely on the level you are suggesting that would be different.

Having met Stan, I would say that I am not. Stan may not write well on message boards, or may not have the time to write all that he would like. Best not to confuse writing skills with validity of perspective. As well, it's interesting to me that you label his post as cartoonish, as this seems to be one of the kinder adjectives used to describe aikido by those in other arts. It would seem to me that aikidoka, if indeed viewing their art as a path of budo, might be a bit more sensitive about denigrating a thing based upon appearance.

your missing the point, take the ten best shihans ,and ten best fighters in the world. dream on if you want to.

stan

OK, I set the rules: None, but the only tool is a live blade (katana).
Could be interesting, but I guess all the shihan would survive.
8 because choose, not to enter as they neither want to kill or to be killed. And two might enter, but probably your 2 best mma fighters will would withdraw.

but his point seems a legitimate one for consideration. Actually (and Stan can chime in here and correct me otherwise), he seems to have two points:
The first seemed to be that, without these baseline internal skills, can you even really consider aikido a martial art?

I'm not sure that the inclusion or exclusion of some explicity taught baseline skillset is enough to declare aikido a martial art or not.

Quote:

But (and I'm reading the spirit of his post here, rather than the letter) what happens when an aikidoka has to mix it up with someone who is trained in another fighting art.

I've done this a bit with my friends who practice a wide variety of traditional martial arts. I usually fair pretty well (meaning I don't get completely dominated) but it doesn't ever look like pretty aikiwaza. I bet the body training I'm learning is going to help this A LOT. My experience dealing with focused aggression from trained martial artists is small but telling. It has told me that *I* don't have the skillset/conditioning to stand toe-to-toe and wipe the mat with equally trained folks. I do however have enough to survive long enough to egress. Since I'm too old and broken to start fighting in a ring, that's good enough for me.

Quote:

Stan's second point (implied, I believe. Stan, you crafty, subtle devil) is actually encouraging, and supports what Dan and Mike (those crafty, unsubtle devils...all too busy pissing in pools, and ruining dreams of martial greatness) have been arguing. Add in internal bodywork for your average aikidoka, starting from day one, and then put them against students of another style. That would not only level the playing field, but for those aikidoka who train with active resistance against their partners, would possibly tip the scales against "external" stylists.

The baseline skills certainly won't hurt but I'm not sure if it is enough to tip the scales.

OK, I set the rules: None, but the only tool is a live blade (katana).
Could be interesting, but I guess all the shihan would survive.
8 because choose, not to enter as they neither want to kill or to be killed. And two might enter, but probably your 2 best mma fighters will would withdraw.

Then all 20 survived. What is your view on that result?

Cheers Dirk

Actually a true MMA fighter trains for the event, so he would know of these rules and take up sword fighting.

To try to add something of value to this conversation (good luck right?) Why is it you do not see this shihan level of skill in younger people? We see many amazing artists in the MMA world with great skills in their 20's and 30's, yet it seems the great examples of non sport arts are always 50+. Is this a positive or negative trait of traditional arts like aikido?

How do you know you don't ?

I think it's quite possible to have some younger people with amazing skills in aikido that you will never hear of. There is no television spotlight on traditional arts like aikido. There is no monetary payoff in the traditional world. Quite frankly, there is also the fact that it is a numbers game like anything else. You need to have a lot of raw recruits to find those with the raw physical and mental talents to allow the technical syllabus really shine. And you need to find them early enough (in their teens).
Find those willing to train hard for a future that offers no fame, no TV exposure, and most likely no money. I had a very talented teenager as a student, great physical shape, smart, picked up technical skill quickly and rose in rank fast, what might have been possible in 10 years ? However, he also was a top performer in BMX racing - money, fame, tv, graduated HS. and he had to make a decision ...

Even so there are those that have and do exist. Take for example someone like Bruce Bookman who started training with Yamada Sensei when he was 12 or Chuck Clark's son Aaron Clark who is quite good in his late 20's high ranked and now in his 30's. There is no TV spotlight on this or local promotion machines. In you aikido, you have to age, achieve really high rank, have an organization newsletter or magazine talk about you, hold large seminars, etc. to you achieve the kind of visibility that would make you aware of them. There is no promotional venue to point you out in your 20's or audience to watch you.