Extract from Ven. Ñānamoli's letter to his friend in UK.Undated letter, probably in 1956:

"My famous (?) magnum opus (translation) was published last month. I have asked them to send you a copy. If it hasn't arrived by March, let me know (parcels seem to take 6 to 8 weeks to Europe now). It seems rather alien and odd, like something done by someone else. For amusement I concealed my name in the first letters of each sentence in the preface. I haven't told anyone but you at all. It amuses me to see if anyone will notice it (but of course they won't). I do not really like the book at all, or agree with some of its content, and it really represents partly the getting past an obstacle and partly some rather abstruse literary amusement for myself. I recommend you to put it on a shelf rather than read it. I think the printers, the best in Ceylon, could have done a better job. Had I known, I would have left less in their hands, still... The "18 faults of a monastery" at the beginning of chapter IV might amuse you."

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

It would have been nice had Ven Nanamoli been a bit more positive about the text, but in looking at his intro and the notes, I do not think it is as bleak as this letter makes it out to be. And I agree with asking the question: And the point of this thread is ...?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

That is interesting. But I wonder what myriad contexts are absent from that conversation that would throw some light on Ven Nanamoli's observations regarding the Vism. Unlike Namamoli Bhikkhu, I am no scholar nor a Pali language expert.As a mere practitioner, I have found the Vism to be an incredible resource that has given me insights into the doctrine and practice. kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Whether atulo has or not, I suspect the point is that if anyone has, it's Nanamoli Bhikkhu.

It's a pretty damning statement from someone who spent the time to do a 900-odd page translation.

Hopefully others have found more of value in it than Nanamoli Bhikkhu himself did.

Metta,Retro.

Apparently damning, but without further information, I hazard to draw the same conclusion that atulo has.kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Could well be, but it is funny how he slipped his name (Osbert John Salvin Moore) into the Translator's Prefix using the first letter of each sentence. This would suggest that the note is at least authentic and that Bhikkhu Nanamoli kept his sense of humour.

retrofuturist wrote:Whether atulo has or not, I suspect the point is that if anyone has, it's Nanamoli Bhikkhu.

It's a pretty damning statement from someone who spent the time to do a 900-odd page translation.

Retro got the point. Ven. Nanamoli was the traslator of the VM and he is quite well informed of the that commentry. Even more, he is reagarded as respected scholar and a man of briliant mind. But still, he does not have faith in Buddhaghosa. I think he would not be pleased to be informed that the book has been reprinted many times.

retrofuturist wrote:Whether atulo has or not, I suspect the point is that if anyone has, it's Nanamoli Bhikkhu.

It's a pretty damning statement from someone who spent the time to do a 900-odd page translation.

Retro got the point. Ven. Nanamoli was the traslator of the VM and he is quite well informed of the that commentry. Even more, he is reagarded as respected scholar and a man of briliant mind. But still, he does not have faith in Buddhaghosa. I think he would not be pleased to be informed that the book has been reprinted many times.

So, in other words, this thread is a bit of a poke at the text itself?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

atulo wrote:Retro got the point. Ven. Nanamoli was the traslator of the VM and he is quite well informed of the that commentry. Even more, he is reagarded as respected scholar and a man of briliant mind. But still, he does not have faith in Buddhaghosa. I think he would not be pleased to be informed that the book has been reprinted many times.

LIke others here, I'm unsure of your point, apart from your already obvious enthusiasm for Ven Nanavira and distaste for the classical commentaries. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion on that, but it seems to me that you are putting a lot of your own spin into Ven Nanamoli's words.

In any case, it's not as if one would take Ven Nanamoli as the arbiter on the accuracy or usefulness to practice of Ven Buddhaghosa's translation (back into Pali from Sinhalese), organisation, and summary of the ancient commentaries. Ven Nanamoli happens to be the last person to do a full translation into English, but there are plenty of non-English speaking modern teachers and scholars, from Burma and elsewhere (Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, etc), who had lifetimes of experience using this information in their teaching.

The Dalai Lama is alive and can be asked if there is any need to clarify his remarks. This is an undated quote, attributed to someone who is no longer alive. And so, the quote has been published without the permission of the Thera concerned, from what was a personal communication. I don't see any wholesome point behind the posting of this thread.

with mettaChris

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

The Dalai Lama is alive and can be asked if there is any need to clarify his remarks. This is an undated quote, attributed to someone who is no longer alive. And so, the quote has been published without the permission of the Thera concerned, from what was a personal communication. I don't see any wholesome point behind the posting of this thread.

with mettaChris

And we have no idea of the context of the letter. Is the letter's recipient a Buddhist, a scholar of things Buddhist? That likely would make a significant difference in how Ven Nanamoli would talk about his book and it contents. To a non-Buddhist the Visuddhimagga could be a dry read, indeed.

What we do see in Ven N's discussion of the book and in his footnotes an enthusiasm for the Visiddhimagga that if one believed the letter should not be there.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

The Dalai Lama is alive and can be asked if there is any need to clarify his remarks. This is an undated quote, attributed to someone who is no longer alive. And so, the quote has been published without the permission of the Thera concerned, from what was a personal communication. I don't see any wholesome point behind the posting of this thread.

with mettaChris

And we have no idea of the context of the letter. Is the letter's recipient a Buddhist, a scholar of things Buddhist? That likely would make a significant difference in how Ven Nanamoli would talk about his book and it contents. To a non-Buddhist the Visuddhimagga could be a dry read, indeed.

What we do see in Ven N's discussion of the book and in his footnotes an enthusiasm for the Visiddhimagga that if one believed the letter should not be there.

My mistake. I thought the letter was from Nanamoli to Nanavira.

To study is to know the texts,To practice is to know your defilements,To attain the goal is to know and let go.

bodom wrote:I found the letter to be very interesting actually. If anyone happens to read anything more into this than that, your intention etc. then that is nothing more than their own papanca.

Well, yes, I found it interesting. The fact that he slipped his name into the preface, and that he sounds fed up with the whole process, much like a lot of our PhD students who have just handed in their thesis...

I was pleased to have those interesting little insights, but it is obvious from his previous and subsequent posts that atulo has a particular view to push, and here is attempting to enlist Ven Nanamoli's letter in support of that position. As Tilt has pointed out, by only quoting an extract without revealing the content of the rest of the letter, or the recipient, makes any conclusions extremely suspect.