Dunno what to tell you Brother Fyred. Guess I bought mine PRE-junk. I have TWO N6's as one gets beat up I rotate it to repaint and back again. Sometime I'll look at the build date and post it. Both are still in good shape. And NO,they aren't as good as they once were,maybe it's that California cow leather.You know,the happy cow stuff. T.C.

So when is pre-junk? 1981 when I bought my N5 New Yorker? Lasted 10 years and the back brim, as well as parts of the shell began to crack and break. 1992 when I bought my first N6A Sam Houston? Lasted 5 years and the back brim virtually disintergrated. Or 1997 when Cairns replaced the shell on that one? Lasted about 5 years and the back brim cracked and was falling apart.

If pre-junk means before MSA bought Cairns helmets then ALL of mine are pre-junk. So much for that excuse.

I think it has more to do with the relative price. I'd rather burn up the department's plastic helmets than my leather helmet...

But there in lies the funny, or perhaps sad part, my plastic traditional Chieftan that I wear for my volly FD has seen a high number of practice burns. At least as many, if not more than my leathers ever did and it is still in fine shape. The Ben 2 that I wear when teching has seen MORE fire than my leathers and has not had any issue what so ever.

The last plastic helmet I melted was a Bullard salad bowl style one about 20 years ago.

As much as I hate it, I have to agree with you. I'm just trying to get a rise out of you of course.

Look, there isn't a thing wrong with having a preference. We all have our thing. For the guys that can make it work for them, I am happy for them. And I do appreciate your honest and kind words sir. I think we understand each other. And isn't it funny how we think we are just a bit better if we use our favorite stuff? Maybe we are...

But in areas that can no longer dedicate the dollars for the extras, it is only a money thing and has nothing to do with tradition. It is a sad truth that sometimes our tradition just escapes us due to forced change, and it isn't always an improvement. Those of us that have been around a while have seen more change than we ever thought possible.

I have been part of the movement that has resisted and stood on my principals and traditions. It was part of my rebel instinct to not give up so easily. Funny how we let our principals get in our own way at times.

You speak of the culture and you are correct. But is culture a part of tradition or is the opposite true? I think culture change is much slower than changes to the tradition.

When I was much younger, our Chief wanted a new truck, not because of the increased capability, but because everyone around us had one. If that was what it took to bring the dept into the 1970s, then great. Wrong reason but still accomplished something positive. But many of us were resistant to get rid of the old 1952 Ford. After all, we had our blood and sweat in that old truck. It didn't matter that the new truck had stuff we only read about... it was alien to us and anything that took much effort was pointless. No one had a clue about pressure or volume at that time, but we didn't have much of a water supply that made it an issue.

I look at todays new guys and they want Christmas everyday. That isn't culture or tradition driving that. We pass our culture and tradition down to the younger guys. Unfortunately, a lot has been lost over the years, some for the right reasons, but some for the wrong reasons.

To be honest, I was hoping I could find a study that proved leather to be superior. I wanted the guy (MAP) to win one. But I couldn't find anything more than what has been stated... opinion. That just doesn't hold up sometimes. If I had found the proof, then I might have been able to use that information myself and justify the added costs. So I don't think any of us won and this discussion did nothing to help the situation. But I don't think of it as time waisted.

So please consider yourself (and your guys) lucky that you still have your leathers. Many of us will just have to be a envious. But this doesn't mean I don't like my Ben. I just think leather is more forgiving and becomes part of you. May sound corny but just the way I think about it.

But as I said, we must move on, and economics very much drives what some consider progress.

It is much like the FIT5 issue... we all hope for a faster effective way to suppress the situation, but the jury is still out and we all have our opinion. Is it really progress or is it a pipe dream? Does this thing really defy what many of us were taught to believe? The concept is in line with our conventional thinking, but it just looks too easy. So how quick can we set aside our own idea of science and embrace this thing? We will see. In the meantime, we still have to fight for everything saved or gained.

I don't know about the pre-junk or post-junk eras that have been talked about. I just knew that my leather was going to last until I wore it out. That was true of everything. I also wore out coats, pants and gloves. I never thought it would last forever despite my best efforts to prolong its life. But I knew when it was done, and it was replaced.

Funny how important those little things are when you no longer have them. But I wish a I had a couple of my old coats back too. Perhaps it helps define what I was, perhaps it is just sentimental. When you get older, you tend to see things in a different prospective. So my advice is if you have the chance... keep everything you have now. It might mean something later.

Look into Fairfax Co. Va, i think they were issuing leather helmets at one pont.

Ive seen some leathers still on the job after 20+ years, busy houses too.

Maybe its luck of the draw?

Originally Posted by PaladinKnight

Rescue101
I just think leather is more forgiving and becomes part of you. May sound corny but just the way I think about it.

Couldnt have said it better sir! I feel like my lid picks up character from each call like I will pick up gray hairs over the years Plastic is cold and lifeless to me, granted it works just as well to keep **** off my head but Im glad I get to wear a little bit of "tradition" on top

And............

I hate to say "I Told You So", but as I expected this discussion devolved from "How to retain our Leathers" to judt plain "Leathers". And that's not a bad thing. I've had quite a few Helmets over the last 51 Years, and I still have 14 of them, about half Leather. Of these 5 are still worn, but none are Leather. The 1010 is my Choice today, One issued and 3 purchased, along with a Tech Rescue lid that admittedly doesn't see much use. I have no issues with Leather, it kept me safe for a long time, but I just like the 1010 since it is a "Traditional" Style, Lighter, and in these times, affordable....

No Leathers?!

WELL CHANGE IS NOW! Change Departments! It's never been a better time to do so! You will get that age old traditional feeling of being treated like a probie! That will pop the tradition right back into your career! Why worry about the leather helmet when they will issue a brand new plastic one!

No tradition in the fire service.....never been a better time to be a police officer...

Oh PLEASE don't. It goes so nicely with my nasty attitude.We're issueing 1044's to the troops. The Brass,5 of the 6 of us wear Leather. Here,if it meets or EXCEEDS Dept issue,you can have it as long as you want to buy it. As long as it is the right color and style. No PINK tu-tu's or anything else that makes you stick out like a skunk in the fog. Since there is only ONE guy higher than me on the food chain,leathers will be here for awhile longer. T.C.

The problem with todays fire service is the pace that tradition is being FORCED out. That is why we have smart mouth probies, idiotic training officers, and egotistical chiefs. These attitudes are ABUNDANT on these boards.

Guess what? My job has issued leathers. Guess what? We still operate just fine. Calls still get answered, fires still get put out, and guys still go home at the end of their shifts without any head injuries. Amazing, isn't it?

Tradition is regressive right? We still have street boxes here. They still work just as well as they did in the early 1900's. Fires still get reported VIA street boxes. People run out of their homes and don't have time to grab a cell phone. So they hook a box rather than pounding on neighbors doors in the middle of the night risking them not hearing them or not giving a crap about a door knock at night.

On 9/11 street boxes were one of the only ways to report emergencies with cells down and land lines jammed. Wow, good thing we had such a primitive technology in place.

Did you know in a study, fire poles were rated second safest with stairs being third. Nah lets rip the poles out if houses because its tradition and regressive and impeding the future of the fire service.

You are not the best because you memorized the IFSTA book. You are the best because the men you work with trust you and respect you. Respect is earned not given.

So those of you who say you should find another job if you want tradition, I say YOU FIND ANOTHER JOB. This is the job. The great job in the world. Stop ruining it.

Oh PLEASE don't. It goes so nicely with my nasty attitude.We're issueing 1044's to the troops. The Brass,5 of the 6 of us wear Leather. Here,if it meets or EXCEEDS Dept issue,you can have it as long as you want to buy it. As long as it is the right color and style. No PINK tu-tu's or anything else that makes you stick out like a skunk in the fog. Since there is only ONE guy higher than me on the food chain,leathers will be here for awhile longer. T.C.

The guy asked for help, just like the other thread. You again, are no help. That's what these boards are for. Helping each other out researching at question or topic you may not know.

You really ought to read threads before shooting your mouth off. The OP got several pages of help from a variety of posters -- including me.

As I mentioned elsewhere, this forum is for (among other things) looking for help. It isn't unreasonable, however, to expect people to make some good faith effort to find their own answers first instead of coming here immediately to get other people to solve their problems for them.

Besides, leather helmets are for decorating bars, not for modern firefighting.

Here's one case of a negative comment towards leather helmets, which BTW, the OP didn't ask for opinions on the helmets, just information. That is but one of a couple of opinions that the OP didn't ask for, several made towards tradition. All the OP asked for was help getting information to support his case to his chief that leather helmets are either equal to or better than plastic helmets. He also stated plainly that the chief had said he would give him a chance to present his case to him. Never once did I see anywhere in the original post that the OP had in anyway what soever any inclination to try and trump the chief by going over his head, as has also been stated that a few folks think he is doing. I don't understand why a person can't come on here to get help with something without at least one person reading their post the wrong way and going out of the way to try and make that person feel like they are immature and stupid.

Now, with all that said, this post wasn't really pointed at anyone in particular, but, if you feel tand re-evaluate how you e-read some of your posts and re-evaluate how you e-read some of your posts and re-evaluate how you give folks advice. Talk to me llike a grown man, and I'll respect your opinion and advice more than I will if talked to like a kid. Again, if this strikes a chord with you, then all I can say is, the guilty conscience speaks for its self. Take care and stay safe brothers.

Now, with all that said, this post wasn't really pointed at anyone in particular, but, if you feel tand re-evaluate how you e-read some of your posts and re-evaluate how you e-read some of your posts and re-evaluate how you give folks advice. Talk to me llike a grown man, and I'll respect your opinion and advice more than I will if talked to like a kid. Again, if this strikes a chord with you, then all I can say is, the guilty conscience speaks for its self. Take care and stay safe brothers.

MassFireGuy would you happen to know how much your department issued leather cost through your department? Is it anywheres close to what we would pay retail?

Pretty sure it close, if not the same, as retail. Uniforms shops and the like are very pricey around here. They know the municipalities pay the bill so there is no real deals. 5.11 pants at one shop around here go for about 10 to 15 dollars more than you can find online. It's a real shame.

The best way to insure you get what you want is to bargain it into your contract. If you want leathers, put it in the contract. You might have to give something up for it, but if the membership feels it's worth it than it is.