And yeah, the bigger city folks are going to have fun with wandering predators. We have coyotes all over Camp Dodge on the north side of Des Moines, not to mention what a local found in his garden this week:

And didn't I read about a wolf being found in a bigger Wisconsin town a few years back?

And cats and dogs and kids. A pack tried taking a rider off a horse in Griffith park in LA. They routinely eat dogs off the end of leashes in LA too. I grew up in a town in the Rockies and coyotes were shot on sight and nobody ever lost pets to them. People are insane to let them run wild in their neighbohoods given they're a reservoir for rabies and how few dogs are vaccinated.

Italian wolves just dine on the garbage dumps there and if they get caught in town after sunup just hide under a bush until it's dark again. People look at a canine and assume, "That's a stray dog", and most times it is.

Wolves in Minnesota have been known to do the same hiding under people's front porches. But I think it will be a while before there's a "Wolf pack kills coyote in New York's Central Park" story.

clkeagle:And yeah, the bigger city folks are going to have fun with wandering predators.

Yeah, I'll have to redefine that term if this continues. To date 'wandering predators' meant those guys who were shooting at each other a few blocks over the other night. And the only bears I ever encounter on my walk home from the subway station are of a different variety.

I don't think you'll find many wild animals larger than coyotes actually living in urban areas. Coyotes might be easily mistaken for dogs around, and get ignored unless they start killing pets. Not so much for bears, cougars, or even wolves. They're too easily noticed, and panicked over. They'll certainly be encountered in urban areas (we had a black bear check out Walmart's bakery in the last town I lived in), but they won't establish territory there.

SwiftFox:Italian wolves just dine on the garbage dumps there and if they get caught in town after sunup just hide under a bush until it's dark again. People look at a canine and assume, "That's a stray dog", and most times it is.

Wolves in Minnesota have been known to do the same hiding under people's front porches. But I think it will be a while before there's a "Wolf pack kills coyote in New York's Central Park" story.

Exactly. A coyote can blend in much easier than a bear or mountain lion. I live in a small city in Colorado and I occasionally see a fox or coyote near my home. They have been in our cities and towns for longer than most suspect because people assume they are stray dogs. If a bear or mountain lion wander into town, everybody loses their shiat and calls out the national guard.

And cats and dogs and kids. A pack tried taking a rider off a horse in Griffith park in LA. They routinely eat dogs off the end of leashes in LA too. I grew up in a town in the Rockies and coyotes were shot on sight and nobody ever lost pets to them. People are insane to let them run wild in their neighbohoods given they're a reservoir for rabies and how few dogs are vaccinated.

^^^^THIS

I have no problem leaving predators alone, so long as they stay out of Human territory. We are part of the natural world just as much as any other animal or plant. We are allowed to keep threats out of our territory, just as any other animal or plant will try to do. (How much territory we occupy is another discussion). Allowing predators inside our territory will not end well as some stories in the past few years show, as predators start to return to currently Human inhabited areas. If you want to avoid killing them, then you need to devise a way to keep them out, active patrols, chemical discouragement, whatever, and be willing to continuously fund and maintain it. Until then, punishing people who defend their property, kids or pets from a predator is the wrong thing to do.

My little sandbar of a Canadian province never had coyotes until about 10 years ago, when a pack crossed the ice in winter (9 mile trip at the narrowest). They are the top predator on the Island now - nothing else is remotely close to them, and they're picking up stray dogs to augment their packs. I hear them almost nightly around my place, although I live in a rural area.

Their urban impact (what urban we have): they're driving all the foxes into the city. I could name about a dozen people I know who have a fox den in their backyard now. if the coyotes decide to follow them, we might have a real issue.

Arnprior Joe:I don't think you'll find many wild animals larger than coyotes actually living in urban areas. Coyotes might be easily mistaken for dogs around, and get ignored unless they start killing pets. Not so much for bears, cougars, or even wolves. They're too easily noticed, and panicked over. They'll certainly be encountered in urban areas (we had a black bear check out Walmart's bakery in the last town I lived in), but they won't establish territory there.

I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in Minnesota/Wisconsin/Michigan next spring an already occasionally glimpsed black wolf, assumed to be a dog and not a coyote, is noticed to have had a litter of wolf pups by people feeding it.

This is the fundamentals of nature. For centuries animals and humans had to co-exist. I see nothing wrong with it. Even if the bigger animals come in. 1. Maybe we'll get to keep our guns for protection. 2. It's the natural order of things; the earth will win; we're specks compared. 3. Thin out the, um, asDarwinians would put it; thin out the weaker less adaptable humans. We do have a population problem. Our population problem was killing off these animals. The national park systems protected them to let them come back; no one complained when they were just on the park land. However, as their numbers grow, so will their need for territory; just like humans. This also goes for all the other animals we've almost hunted into extinction; including carnivores and herbivores. I think we should get used to it and just keep a gun for protection ONLY. The earth should be more "rural." Not a hippy thought, just a realistic thought. "Native Americans," and "Mexican" tribes lived with these animals for thousands of years, they survived.

\please don't hate me for trying to be realistic about nature.\\if you want to you have to...I guess. \\\I await my onslaught.

SwiftFox:I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in Minnesota/Wisconsin/Michigan next spring an already occasionally glimpsed black wolf, assumed to be a dog and not a coyote, is noticed to have had a litter of wolf pups by people feeding it.

One weekend my GF and I were walking down Clark around midnight by the Zoo to my new apartment, I saw two coyotes very brazenly sitting on the corner of Wisconsin looking for what I can assume is only the hundreds of rabbits that congregate in that park after 9 or so. The amusing thing is that they were all of 2-3 blocks from the Red Wolf enclosure at the zoo, and you can sometime hear them howl.

I live in a very large city outside Chicago and see coyotes all the time. I can hear their pack howling at nights in the nursery by my house when they get a kill. Pretty cool to hear. Then there are the occasional missing pets but what can you do

SeaMonkey311:I live in a very large city outside Chicago and see coyotes all the time. I can hear their pack howling at nights in the nursery by my house when they get a kill. Pretty cool to hear. Then there are the occasional missing pets but what can you do

UncleStumpy:SeaMonkey311: I live in a very large city outside Chicago and see coyotes all the time. I can hear their pack howling at nights in the nursery by my house when they get a kill. Pretty cool to hear. Then there are the occasional missing pets but what can you do

What exactly do you call a very large city?

In the scope of the world, Chicago isn't even a "very large" city.

I'm guessing Naperville is where he lives, given that it's got something like 100K people.

UncleStumpy:SeaMonkey311: I live in a very large city outside Chicago and see coyotes all the time. I can hear their pack howling at nights in the nursery by my house when they get a kill. Pretty cool to hear. Then there are the occasional missing pets but what can you do

Fano:UncleStumpy: SeaMonkey311: I live in a very large city outside Chicago and see coyotes all the time. I can hear their pack howling at nights in the nursery by my house when they get a kill. Pretty cool to hear. Then there are the occasional missing pets but what can you do

What exactly do you call a very large city?

In the scope of the world, Chicago isn't even a "very large" city.

He's not counting 3rd world warrens.

I get your point, but even in first world or slightly smaller, 3 mill isn't very large.

UncleStumpy:Fano: UncleStumpy: SeaMonkey311: I live in a very large city outside Chicago and see coyotes all the time. I can hear their pack howling at nights in the nursery by my house when they get a kill. Pretty cool to hear. Then there are the occasional missing pets but what can you do

What exactly do you call a very large city?

In the scope of the world, Chicago isn't even a "very large" city.

He's not counting 3rd world warrens.

I get your point, but even in first world or slightly smaller, 3 mill isn't very large.

The article estimated 500 coyotes in Denver Metro. My guess is a hell of a lot more. I see a half-dozen different ones within a couple miles of my house. One male, in particular, has tried to stare me down. , until I pegged a rock at him. North of Denver, a pack has attacked a couple-three kids and killed some dogs on the leash.

True, but that's where parenting and warning the children come into play. Again, the nature of nature. I know that nowadays parents don't do much of that anymore. But maybe that's nature's point; is to push parents to parent. The natives and ppl from hundreds of thousands of yrs ago did it; we can too.

True, but that's where parenting and warning the children come into play. Again, the nature of nature. I know that nowadays parents don't do much of that anymore. But maybe that's nature's point; is to push parents to parent. The natives and ppl from hundreds of thousands of yrs ago did it; we can too.

\Just a thought...

We had a coyote problem, back when the littlebopper was 5 or 6 years old. I parented by killing one of the coyotes with a subsonic .22 LR to the lungs, and by pressuring the others by bowhunting them so that they were too afraid to come near the back yard. Now, they stay in the woods, where they belong. I don't mind them being around, so long as they know their place. Once they become too familiar and at-ease around humans, that's when they become a problem.

There is a NICHE in the Human Urban environment for a higher non-Human predator to gobble up all the other animals that have adapted to the Human Urban environment. Darwin is NOT "Survival of the Fittest." It's the Survival of those that FIT BEST. New niche? New opportunity for an organism to exploit that role. You can take pot shots at Bears, Mountain Lions and Coyotes, but one of them is going to be the top non-Human predator in the Human Urban environment because the Niche is out there. One of them is going to adapt and WIN.

You cannot fight this FACT with all your firepower. But you CAN choose which one will succeed by giving up the notion of not having a non-Human Top Predator in the Urban Environment. Coyotes go after Dogs and Cats? Stop putting your cats out for the night. Stop putting your dogs out on a leash in an unfenced yard. Don't want them to attack your kid? Supervise them. And give them a sack of Dog Treats so if they are confronted by coyotes, they are taught to throw it at them and run the FARK away!

At the very least when your kid is confronted by Coyotes, they expect Dog Treats. Give them lots of packs. Lest they want to eat your kid. It's like throwing a fist full of quarters at the Homeless.

I was confronted by a group of Coyotes on a late night walk in Suburban St. Louis. I dealt with them as I would a stray Dog. As a lifelong Dog Owner, I know a bit about behavior of the genus Canis.

Move casually away from them. Don't make eye contact. If they approach you, start PANTING. Quick, heavy, loud breaths. This is "Dog" for submission. If they approach you, start whining like a puppy. If they get closer to you, offer your hand, four finger on top of the Thumb and point it at their face, lower than their Head. That is a Canid sign of submission. if the stray dog sniffs your hand let them and when you feel they are comfortable with you, start petting them from BELOW. That's how Canids approach each other. Don't pet them from above the Mouth until you are confident that they are comfortable with you.

There is a NICHE in the Human Urban environment for a higher non-Human predator to gobble up all the other animals that have adapted to the Human Urban environment. Darwin is NOT "Survival of the Fittest." It's the Survival of those that FIT BEST. New niche? New opportunity for an organism to exploit that role. You can take pot shots at Bears, Mountain Lions and Coyotes, but one of them is going to be the top non-Human predator in the Human Urban environment because the Niche is out there. One of them is going to adapt and WIN.

You cannot fight this FACT with all your firepower. But you CAN choose which one will succeed by giving up the notion of not having a non-Human Top Predator in the Urban Environment. Coyotes go after Dogs and Cats? Stop putting your cats out for the night. Stop putting your dogs out on a leash in an unfenced yard. Don't want them to attack your kid? Supervise them. And give them a sack of Dog Treats so if they are confronted by coyotes, they are taught to throw it at them and run the FARK away!

At the very least when your kid is confronted by Coyotes, they expect Dog Treats. Give them lots of packs. Lest they want to eat your kid. It's like throwing a fist full of quarters at the Homeless.

I didn't know you were an expert. Mind me P's and Q's. Although, adaptation and evolution are Darwinian. That's what I was talking bout, & I personally am not a Darwinian, I'm a realist.