As most of you will know, we are working on putting a new league together. To avoid past drama, we would like your input. This is THE CHANCE to voice your opinion about the upcoming league, to post up about what rules are needed, what kind of 'league system' needs to be used, etc. Note that only replies in this topic will be taken into account. Refusing to reply here and starting to complain about things afterwards will only reduce your credibility.

Shortly put, describe what a perfect league would look like in your opinion, giving as much details and information as possible.

I will take all replies in account, so the more information you give and the more replies this topic gets, the better!

I would like to ask everyone to stay constructive nonetheless. I approve discussion, but this is no place to start insulting each other or whatsoever.

1. New teams, to prevent vi and col from rolling over everybody :3
2. Split top players into separate teams(2 top players per team max imo. assuming its a 3v3/4v4 league)
3. Now that we have new, more fair teams, make sure the matches can be rescheduled
Put on a suggested date for when the match should be played, and a deadline after which the match HAS to be played, allowing only 1 reschedule, both teams have to agree on a date and notify the admins of when the match is going to happen, anywhere from when the match is announced all the way to the deadline.
4. The above solution has 1 major downside, it stops us from having a ladder based tourney, so i suggest using the system we had in the asylum league, all teams play each other twice per 1 season and the winner is determined from total points.
5. Have a second leaggue, lower scale tourneys every weekend running simultainously with the big league season, those would be ladder based with no rescheduling, this way teams that are able to play on the weekend have more matches and competition. The results of the weekend cups should not affect the "big" league results, it should be separate.

Some stuff i thought of on the run, will add more if i recall something.

1. We need a list of players who want to, can and are intelligent enough to participate. That means regularly checking the forum or at least fb group. I suggest making a thread where people will have to sign up (by themselves), day later post link on facebook to see how information will travel around.
2. 4 players in each team, matches 3v3 (if both teams agree then 4v4), no subs. IMO teams shouldn't be forced, but stacking best players should be a reason to reject such a team, because nobody wants to play predictable matches.
3. Number of maps per each match and time per map should be determined based on number of teams, but map should also end when one team gains certain score advantage over the other to avoid wasting time.
4. Rules "what team can and can't do" during match, for example no turtling. Losing also should be fun.
5. No possibility of "being late", if team can't play at the desired time, they should reschedule or forfeit. Reasonable deadline (IMO league should start Sunday morning and all matches should be played before next Saturday, if someone can't play during 6-day period, why did they sign up in the first place).

League should be an actual match with teamplay and all that stuff. Hard minimum is 5v5 (cap, hof / d main, ld/chase, ho, lo) but we should be aiming higher.

Since we wont have so many teams, a classic round-robin format is what I imagine. All vs all, points determine the place. Win = 3pts, tie = 1pt or something. We can do more cycles of course.

We shouldnt talk into the rosters of the teams. We cant just say "you two dont play together". Remember we do it for our own entertainment. Just let the teams be made and dont change it.

If a team cant play, the enemy takes default win and its done. No drama involved. An admin will be watching and if anything happens, he will take care of it.

Just play the game! Promod can be enabled but keep sensors and generators desctructable and stuff. No "you cant do this and that and use this". The only gameplay rule we need is dont do catapult bug. And thats it. All we need is alerady in the game.

Also let the teams decide when they want to play so it suites both teams.

1. Balanced teams , so we won't have a team like bins jinx orphea who will just dominate everyone
2. BO3 system - I personally don't like 1 map matches , because 1 team can contain players who are simply bad/great on one particular map. Id like to have 3 maps played with map wins as count , or 2 maps but with flagcaps as "points" to determite the winner. Not sure if anyone would like this tho
3. No turtling and base rape (Invos are allowed)
4. No spectators , besides admin - a common problem of the past where on league matches there were more spectators then players , making the server lag a lot.

1. Realisticly at this state, we can only, just like ness said, do 3v3 or 4v4 if both teams agree, so a roster of 4 players. That's the only way we can have atleast 6 teams, if even that.

2. As also already mentioned, top players who are willing to capt split into individual teams.

3. 3v3 or 4v4 requires troc unless you guys wanna vanilla emerald it.

4. inve rape is fine but we should modify the most played maps and try optimize them comp wise, which is kinda what corrupt and few are doing atm. Should also put barries on base entries to remove turtling (or we just make that a rule w/e)

League should be an actual match with teamplay and all that stuff. Hard minimum is 5v5 (cap, hof / d main, ld/chase, ho, lo) but we should be aiming higher.

We shouldnt talk into the rosters of the teams. We cant just say "you two dont play together". Remember we do it for our own entertainment. Just let the teams be made and dont change it.

Fifato

These would be the preferred ways in an optimal situation, but unfortunately there simply aren't enough players for this. The "top players" need to be split up because otherwise what happens is, 1 or 2 teams will just completely oblitarate everyone else and it won't be much of a competition (this is what happened last year). Also I agree that a minimum of 5v5 (pref higher) would be the preferred choice but again, with the amount of players we have, that would probably amount into an optimistic estimate of 4 teams, maybe less (and perhaps a pseudo-team who is signed up but never plays). So unfortunately at this time we will probably be restricted to small team sizes, and splitting up the best players from each other

Well, since we get 10+ players every evening and play even 7v7 and so mixes, I thought that we would be able to get those 4 teams 5v5. But it highly depends on how many percent of the active players will want to participate.

I personally believe that what I said is possible to do.

And if not, who is up for planned pugs? Basically the proper match I was talking about, just without premade teams and no league. That would satisfy my tribal needs.

But anyways I am still looking forward to play the league, no matter if it will be just dueling.

Fifato wrote:But anyways I am still looking forward to play the league, no matter if it will be just dueling.

The opposite is the case here. We've already played some 3v3 test matches and the teamwork and speed was great. Even tho you had only 3 enemies it seemed that there's always some guy on your back , no matter what position you played. And also the flagplay was very good , with nice flagpasses like every minute.

Oui wrote:The opposite is the case here. We've already played some 3v3 test matches and the teamwork and speed was great. Even tho you had only 3 enemies it seemed that there's always some guy on your back , no matter what position you played. And also the flagplay was very good , with nice flagpasses like every minute.

100% agreement here. 3v3 equals every player important, no matter how bad his movement/aim/whatever skills are, if there is one thing he can reliably do, he is great asset to the team and can change entire match.

Fifato wrote:But anyways I am still looking forward to play the league, no matter if it will be just dueling.

The opposite is the case here. We've already played some 3v3 test matches and the teamwork and speed was great. Even tho you had only 3 enemies it seemed that there's always some guy on your back , no matter what position you played. And also the flagplay was very good , with nice flagpasses like every minute.

Agreed, but for the sake of discussion I am going to throw up a thought or two about this.

We have indeed tested this setting before and the gameplay was great and very intense. But that was a 3v3 with the (almost) the very best players available. I mean, obviously shit was going to be intense. What we are looking at here - based on what I have read in this topic so far - is separating the better players from each other to balance things out. Don't you feel this will impact the game to such a degree that the gameplay might slow down a lot and make the game become an one man show, etc?

Do you think this can be addressed by having regular practice sessions (each team individually? or all together?) and do you think that is manageable?

We start with small teams - some agree, some do not - of say 4 to 5 people max. We consider the first season as a "test season" where the maps will be picked beforehand and the teams themselves have no say in the matter whatsoever. Each time rivals every other team only once. Winner is declared by a point system and if tied, by flag captures. Standard 3 maps per match system with overtime on the third map in case of a tie. Rescheduling allowed. Substitutes forbidden. Best players get separated. Anything allowed server side, besides turtling and cheating is allowed. I will adjust the forum, so we can communicate standings and such through here meanwhile. (More rules and settings to follow but this as a quick drawing)

Goal here, would be to test:

What kind of maps work and what kind of maps do not. We know that TROC opens a lot of possibilities on this one, but limited team numbers prove to be a challenge.

If the suggested method of splitting the top-6 players apart and filling teams that way works or not. To see what it gives.

The time limit per map and eventually the match

What drama comes forth when rescheduling matches. Don't worry, rules will be put in place beforehand.

What drama arises considering substitutes, etc. Not sure whether this should be allowed or forbidden after the test season.

How we can declare a played match as valid, without having me sit in the server the entire day

If the 3 maps-system works in this case or not

To what degree spectators impact the server's performance

To what degree spectators disturb the ongoing game

The set game rules and see if they require an update or not

(Anything I am forgetting here?)

Also, this would proof useful, because:

Indiana would the time to finish the league website and we can already have some competition meanwhile

It would increase EU interest in T:V and will surely cause a certain growth in our player counts

Regarding the "how can we declare a played match as valid" problem, here is how the ETF2L (European Team Fortress 2 League) does it -

Everyone has to record their POV with the demo recording system which luckily is in both Source and Unreal engine. Actually TF2 has a tool that automatically starts recording right when the match starts and ends automatically, also it can set the demo name to <map name> <date> etc etc. It is definetly possible to do at least the auto-record part here but its not needed, it would just be 1 more download. A message reminding players to click record will be enough.

Both team captains take screenshots of the score after each map. They should also take the steamIDs through console but we dont have this stuff, the only way to confirm its not someone else playing is through IP adress.

Teams can use a substitute or a merc if the other team agrees. If a team fails to get on the server in 15 mins after the planned start, the other team gets a default win. Same if a team fails to have enough players ready.

So with this, an admin doesnt have to be on the server. If anything is suspicious, the other team can request a demo from a specific player. Admin doesnt have to watch who win because they have the screenshots.
Just we need someone on IRC or something so that when anything during the match happens can be solved.

This system is pretty much self-driven from the players and doesnt require overwatching. Things are even easier for us since we dont have 300 teams and only one server that is under our control.

Spectating shouldnt be allowed. We dont have any UnrealTV like Source has so even if it doesnt eat resources, ghosting is possible and that is not acceptable.