Salam sisters, I wasn't sure where to post my question but I decided to start here to see if I get any responses. Here it goes...

There are many Islamic online matrimonial services available (including on this website) and I wanted to know, what makes online interaction different from dating??? Other than the fact that you are not in the same room as the other person...what makes it any different? In other words, what makes it acceptable???

There is much more I'd like to bring up but I want to leave it at that for now. Inshallah, I will get some insightful responses so that others may benefit as well. I truly appreciate any comments but it would be great to hear from a scholar as well (again, I am still VERY interested in hearing people's opinions nonetheless).

Thank you. Wasalamu Alakum.

..babysteps..

Replies: Posted By: UmmAminata
Date Posted: 28 July 2007 at 3:33am

Salaam'Alaikum Sister

If you're seeking a fiqh/sheri related answer to your question, I believe it would better to consult an Islamic Scholar of Family Law.

I also want to point out which I'm sure you already know that Muslims aren't a monolithic group of people and do not subscribe to one interpretation of Islam across the board.

I do not believe that a divorced/widowed/non-virgin or matured woman needs a Wali ( Marriage guardian) to orchestrate the affairs of her marriage.

I do not believe that two Muslims conversing through the Internet or the phone can commit any type of fornication becuase they are not in each others presence physically.

I do not believe a woman's voice is her awrah either.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

I wish you well.

-------------Mrs. Dia

Posted By: babysteps
Date Posted: 28 July 2007 at 8:42am

Thank you so much! I will, inshallah, consult an Islamic Scholar of Family Law in the future if necessary but I really wanted to hear how others felt about this- don't worry, I won't take action based on any comments posted here so don't feel responsible in that sense...just voice your opinion :)

Are there any other thoughts on online matrimonial services? acceptable? not accebtable? why?

Thanks again Mrs. Dia!

..babysteps..

Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 28 July 2007 at 12:19pm

Originally posted by babysteps

Thank you so much! I will, inshallah, consult an Islamic Scholar of Family Law in the future if necessary but I really wanted to hear how others felt about this- don't worry, I won't take action based on any comments posted here so don't feel responsible in that sense...just voice your opinion :)

Are there any other thoughts on online matrimonial services? acceptable? not accebtable? why?

Thanks again Mrs. Dia!

..babysteps..

Salaamu Alaykum,

ISA you will be successful in whatever you choose to do.

I have seen sisters get hurt from such arrangements, and personally have not heard any success stories from those I know. They seemed successful at first, but then after time, the truth of the inherent difficulties of such situations revealed itself.

I think that if you could find a reliable person whom you trust to weed out brothers/guys who ignore clearly stated specifications that it would be emotionally easier for you.

I tried for a year to find a potential spouse for my obese older Sister in Islaam, and you wouldn't believe the number of young guys who answered her ad ignoring the minimum age requirement. It was very obvious that these young guys wanted a green card. She's super intelligent and educated and needs someone who not only speaks English, but soars in its usage.

The good thing is that I didn't tell her about these awful emails that kept coming. She didn't have to go through the ups and downs of anticipating someone's true answer. Whereas I have another Sister in Islaam who is doing this herself with noone's help, and it seems very difficult for her.

ISA you will find your way peacefully and have a lovely story to share with us in the end. Salaams.

-------------Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.

Posted By: babysteps
Date Posted: 28 July 2007 at 7:56pm

I never thought about these types of problems...thank you for your response sister (herjihad)!

Inshallah people will continue to post and it will be interesting to see how the guys feel about these online matrimonial service as well. Inshallah I will post this topic for them soon...

Jazakallahukhair :)

..babysteps..

Posted By: lovesakeenah
Date Posted: 29 July 2007 at 1:50pm

As-salaam alaykum

If we follow the grades of Zeenah,(eyes,hands,even mind);then it is possible to have committed Zeenah online with a propospective partner.I apologise for not being able to relate the Hadith accordingly.Just like there are boundries not to be trangressed in a one-one or physical courship,ssame rule applies to online dating,but with some major differences such as the two intending couples not seeing each other.However,this does not mean that both or either of them could not commit Zeenah.With the exception of physical contact,the mind could wander andimagine even what someone might not be bold to do in reality.As a matter of fact,the anxiety of not having met each other makes one vulnerable to thinking and imagining things,wishes &what have you.

Meanwhile,no doubt online dating has reduced the propability of Zeenah.May Allah forgive us.However,I agree that if we are truly looking out for our brethren,we can match-make if we find someone suitable.However,I do not think the recommendation should be based on loyalty or obedience to some Imam or Sheik (astagfirullah).But believe me,it is necessary to have someone you could turn to if anything goes wrong,hence,the need for a Waalih.But opinions vary over this.So Allah knows best.

As regards the success of online marriages,believe me,I haven't heard of any until about four days ago when a fellow sister on line told me she met her husband through the net.I do not know how long they've been married,but she admitted to being fully satisfied with her husband.She said they never even saw either's picture and only met the night prior their Nikkah..I exclaimed with utmost surprise and this gave me a different outlook on this subject.I didn't hesitate to tell her that I never thought things like that work.So,I guess I also learnt not to be presumptious about issues I haven't knowledge of its end result.

Allah knows best!

-------------"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".

Posted By: babysteps
Date Posted: 30 July 2007 at 7:19pm

Thanks for posting (lovesakeenah)! This is exactly my concern: Whether or not the online service eliminates chances of one committing Zeenah or not!

So lovesakeenah believes the service reduces the chance for Zeenah but doesn’t eliminate it completely. I can understand this perspective but then what must be done, or what must be avoided, in order to prevent Zeenah through these online relationships????

For instance: is it important that you never share your picture? Should you avoid phone conversations? Should you limit discussions to marriage plans? Should you avoid joking around? Should you avoid physical descriptions (i.e. height, eye color, etc.)? Should you avoid mentioning your income? your ethnicity???

I have thought about this a lot and can't seem to come up with guidelines for online relationships (if they should even be allowed)! One-on-one, I feel, it’s easy to tell what is allowed and what is not. But through the internet....I'm just confused

I hope that makes sense :)

Allah Kareem.

..babysteps..

Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 9:01pm

I met my husband online and honestly felt really good about it. We did not meet in person until about a week before we got married. This gave us time to be sure, but to be honest we had discussed a lot about ourselves, our goals and our beliefs long before we met. I felt I really knew him and so things went fairly smoothly.

I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do! Allah Kareem

Posted By: lovesakeenah
Date Posted: 01 August 2007 at 1:12am

As-salaam alaykum sisters

Am happy for you salams_wife.May Allah put more love into your marriage.

Well babysteps,you did ask some interesting questions.You must agree with me that we could say someone commit Zeenah if the acts were visible or reported to us.However,it is mostly athing of the mind.As humans,we are suceptible to thoughts that could either poison or minds or pollute our souls.Whether it is Internet dating or not,the level of consciousness would be a major decider of what people do where no one else sees them besides Allah.We can not condemn this initiative of online dating because it wasn't meant to corrupt people.The level of consciousness would guide the suitors in setting a limit to their conversations.It is not wise &necessary to avoid phone conversations,limit discussions to 'marriage' only,avoid humour,elude discussions based on physical descriptions or origin & the source of livelihood.You and I know these are salient issues which is still the limits even in Physical courtship.If you don't have these information,how do you know who you're proposing to spend the rest of your life with (if Allah wills)?

It is allowed to ask if your suitor is obesse( idnt mean to be sarcastic) or a straight figure.What would happen if you discover he/she was fat whereas you cannot never be caught dead with an overweight partner?It should be modestly asked,for instance one could simply say,what's your height,weight or complexion?Marriage shouldn't bring you regrets,you have to be content with your partner,else you are postponing the evils'day.Imagine what people who were initially slim but added lots of weight after marriage face.I've heard of series of cases where the spouse is insisting on the partner losing weight else,a threat to their marriage.So now imagine lieing or being ignorant of it before marriage.Dnt you think this could have been avoided?Besides,Islam isn't a religion of compulsion &we don't impose ideas,situations or conditions on people.You need to know where he/she is from(race,country),family background,discuss interests,Qualifications(if formally educated),hobbies &similarities(if any),Islamic Orientation (if he/she belongs to any school of Thought),Status (employee/self employed,or non-working),&future plans.Some would rather remain ignorant of any past experiences,the lesser they know,the better for them &others might feel differently.These are harmless discussions that sets a good foundation for them.So,if they refuse to have phone conversations,how would they have answers to all these salient questions?The issue of picture varies because of idealogy.Some would rather take the verbal description &be content with it,while some believes seeing is believing.Allah knows best.The issue of picture is an entirely different topic in Islam with schools of Thoght varying in their stands.Again,Allah knows best.So my dear sister,if we have the right thinking with the right intentions,whether we see ourselves or just share texts online,we would be guide by our level of consciousness,knowing Allah sees&Hears all.

I hope this helps.All knowledge lies with Allah!

-------------"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".

Posted By: saqeen
Date Posted: 02 August 2007 at 4:28am

salaams, i love this topic, they're so many opinions & it shows how in the world we're changing & adapting...

as for finding a spouse online, there are advantages & disadvantages...but most of all if you think you can't "sin" while online that's logically wrong...by words you can flirt....I don't think this really needs explaination because it's more logical than anything else...& as sis lovsakeenah says, intentions are really important...

well, my own best friend married online & what's funny is only a few people know about it, both of them lied to society mostly because before it was looked as "silly" but what I find more exciting is that more & more people are looking at the internet & it's widened our boundaries...it's very okay now to look for marriage thru the net...anyways, my bff is happily married...

as for disadvantages, there are horror stories like sis herijihad was saying...ppl looking for greencards etc but that u also find outside of the net too...

a special suggestion would be that it's okay to find a spouse over the net but make sure it's not purely that..later progress to phone calls or at least a couple of visits so that you don't fall prey to ppl who are lying or commiting fraud, etc...& not only for those reasons but sometimes the whole package as can't be seen online...

like for my proposals before marriage...if my parents liked a guy & his family, I would be allowed to email & also speak on the phone w/ him... (coz i was on the otherside of the world) but when I got to see him or his family & dated him (they were chaperoned) it was a completely different...i really can't explain it...online u don't get the whole 3-D effect

Posted By: lovesakeenah
Date Posted: 02 August 2007 at 5:08am

As-salaam alaykum

You're right about the disadvantages&this is why one shouldn't be desperate because these things do happen & one need to be very careful.I think it is best to go under the recommendation of Islamic Sites one can trust,like here or Islamonline.net.There could be a host of others,but these are the ones I know of.IAnd you're right that we're adapting to the technological age.Am happy to hear your friend's happily married.That goes to show the cliche about online dating is gradually becoming a thing of the past.I must admit I had an entirely different opinion about it initially until that sister told me her story.It was actually because where am from,people do it mainly to get an access to travel abroad.An abuse of the main objective.besides,most sites're just there for fun seeking people who might not be looking for a lasting relationship.I think the difference between us &them's that we know it is serious business.Islam doesn't give room for such.I know that still doesn't rule out the fact that some abuse it.

But am glad,I've heard a few good stories so far.Ipray others who are looking find true love,for the sake of Allah!

-------------"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".

Posted By: babysteps
Date Posted: 02 August 2007 at 12:14pm

Mashallah sisters, thank you all for the thorough responses! I really appreciate it. Though I can’t say I have come to any conclusions (In fact, I think I have a little bit more to think about now, lol) I’m glad I asked :)

Inshallah this discussion will continue. I have also just posted the topic for our Muslim borthers and if I get any response from any other source I will be sure to share it with you…

I will definitely be posting more on this topic inshallah and hopefully respond to some of the opinions posted...I just have a lot to think about right now

Thanks again!

..babysteps..

Posted By: anam
Date Posted: 03 August 2007 at 8:01pm

Asslam o alaikum
My opinion on this matter is that it depends on what one is doing.If one is using it as a martimonial service then it is ok but if it is used as a dating service then that is wrong.
In case of dating i dont mean only going out together i also mean by this chating online.It means that everyone this way would be chating with many many people before deciding finally and one never knows who is telling the truth and who isnt.Some people can deceive others this way as well.
I dont think it is wrong if someone talks directly to the person gets the required information maybe the mother can do this as well.If the education,and other things are what one wants then the both families could meet and couple could meet and talk as well.Just like any other martimonial service.When the other person would be willing to meet the family he definitely wont be one who is not wasting time or after a chat with a girl only.What is better than the consent of both families.You atleast this way know who you are talking.
This is my opinion.
hope to get more opinions.
Allah hafiz

Posted By: babysteps
Date Posted: 05 August 2007 at 8:25pm

Salam sisters and thank you for all the responses!

Under the Q&A (ask the Imam) section on this website I found the following response to a gentlemen’s concern about an online relationship: If indeed marriage is the goal, then there is nothing to be ashamed of or to keep secret if you follow the certain guidelines. By this we mean: 1-You have the true and sincere intention to marry her and you are communicating with her only to get to know her better. 2-Your communication with her is kept at an extreme level of respect and morals. 3-It is advisable to meet her personally with the presence of someone (you should not be alone with her) to follow the advice of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who said in the Hadith, the meaning of which is that a Muslim should look at the person he wants to marry, for it may generate the feelings of closeness and gentleness between them. and 4-You should not delay the marriage too long. Thank you for asking and Allah knows best.

Another guideline was added in a separate response: You should inform your parents about what is happening with you.

Additionally: If the prospective partner is of good character, with a strong religious inclination, and the two young people are happy and feel compatible with one another, other considerations [ethnicity, occupation, etc.] are not of such importance.

Inshallah this helps others as it has helped me set some things straight. I still have many things to consider before I make any decisions but this kind of summarizes the guidelines that were discussed in this forum.

Thanks again to everyone’s response. I really appreciate it. If any other ideas/thoughts/questions about this topic come to mind please do not hesitate to make a post (I know I won't!)...

I look forward to hearing it :)

Salam.

..babysteps..

Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 09 August 2007 at 6:36am

A very personal reply:

Dear Babysteps: I have followed the development of this thread, and I have put off writing because I am not Muslim - your situation is different from mine, and I didn't want to tread on any sensibilities. I don't know how old you are. From personal experience I would only caution not to get married too young.

For those of you who remember last year, I met Colin online, right here on Islamicity! Gradually (though not too gradually)we realised that we were two sides of the same coin. We have now been together almost a year. We began through writing here, graduated to PM's, both here and on The Pond (which may not still exist?). Eventually we began to phone and I knew straightaway that this man was my "Soulmate". I picked him up at Malaga airport on August 31st. He came from Wales to Spain with two suitcases and a computer (this one actually!) We had never met in person!

What a risk! And what a good one!

Today, almost a year later, we are very happy and contented in our love. Yes, we have our spats: name me two intelligent and "independent" people who don't! But now, I cannot imagine how I lived my life without him.

"Relationships" are hard no matter how they evolve. But men and women not only don't communicate well, often they use a different language altogether! In writing much of that changes (read between the lines - don't fall too much for the Romantic bit - could you live with him is a better question?) But all-in-all, I would recommend on-line "friendships". I hope they don't mind, but both Angela and Patty (long standing members for the US) have both told me they met their mates on-line (not here as far as I know - neither are Muslim, but both a very sympathetic and eager to learn about your religion, as are we). They both have happy, stable relationships.

My very best wishes for you and your future. The world is changing; love remains the same. Trust your instincts. You will know.

Sincerely,

Cassie

Posted By: babysteps
Date Posted: 14 August 2007 at 1:49pm

Wow Cassie. Thank you for sharing! Sorry I didn't get to respond earlier but I truly appreciate it. You are very right about a couple things. Firstly, our situations are not the same. From what I read, you didn't participate in IslamiCity in order to find your soulmate. But, subhanallah, you happened to meet!

The question is- would it have been the same if you came on in hopes of finding him, comparing him to others on the site and keeping marriage as the goal? I know when I put it that way it seems so mechanical but it’s not so black and white and this service can lead to success (as salams_wife and saqeen described) and may prevent some opportunities for zeenah to take place too!

All in all, I think I have accepted that using the service is no different than not using it. It’s no less or more haram, for lack of a better word, and it’s not more or less efficient. Though it may seem to speed things along, in the end there is no easy way out. Subhannallah, we are always looking for shortcuts. We think that if we set up a profile and search for exactly what we are looking for it will all work out. But then there is that 3D effect (saqeen mentioned) that we need to account for. Are they even willing to relocate (as Cassie mentioned)?

I guess what I’m saying is that with the service, the take off is easier, the ice is broken faster BUT then you have to figure out if the relationship will ultimately sink or swim. Without the service, you learn about the person slowly, you get the 3D effect BUT THEN someone has to declare interest and it moves from there. In the end it’s the same difference….right?

Well maybe not exactly the same but I don’t think there are any short cuts- no shortcuts in online services and no shortcuts without. Cassie, you are also right about not marrying too young or simply falling for the romantic bit. Although to each of us, “too young” may mean different things…I guess we do need to ”trust our instincts” and trust that Allah(swt) will guide us if our intentions are pure as well.

Again, I thank everyone for posting and feel free to continue the discussion! Maybe share what you think “too young” is and why...could be interesting!

Salamu Alakum :)

..babysteps..

Posted By: lovesakeenah
Date Posted: 15 August 2007 at 4:18am

AS-salaam alaykum babysteps

Just very briefly,I think the issue of'too young' would be an inexhaustible one.The reason most of us would be in 'uniform' here is because when we relate to Islamic rulings on marriage,we might not be using that term'too young'.And to start exploring the is it the 7 or 9 Continents we have now,their culture,custom & what have you?That would be the day!In my country alone,at least,the three main Ethnic have different views regarding marriage.In a particular tribe(Hausa),these people claim to be following the Sunnah & give out their very young female daughters in marriage,once she attains puberty irrespective of the age.The problem with them is,that is just one of their 'claims' of being a True Muslim because they deny their female children the right to be educated.Now where in the Qur'an did they read that?Before I go off topic,in my own Tribe,we seem to place a lot of value in Education & do not consider how old the girl,woman,young lady is,as long as she's still schooling,she's "too young" to be married.Some of these are fast changing these days.I'd also like to read about other people's culture too.And when we also start exploring the Medical implications of marrying late,we'd sure come up with reasons for OR against early arriage.Allah knows Best!

-------------"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".

Posted By: Aneesah Shabazz
Date Posted: 12 September 2007 at 12:53pm

as-salaam alakium how are you fine i meet a muslim brother online

he come down here to meet me .

we been talking on the phone

about 3 months personal i don't think it is a good idea now he is in jail

i was with him when they stop him

i feel somebody for commit a sin

Posted By: nur1
Date Posted: 12 September 2007 at 8:56pm

Salamu alaykum sister,

Just one reflection about the 3D effect. I think it's not so bad to put this off and learn about the other person with an open but clear mind. Not impacted by looks and let's call it "emotional confusion or excitement". I think we women have tendenciy to get to emotional too soon anyway.

Take the time to find out what are the important things for you before you even start writing somebody.Then analyze and ask the right questions, those that are important for two people who plan to live together for the rest of their lives and insha'allah afterwards. And try to find out as much as possible with whom you are dealing (all with the due respect of course).

And when you feel confused, you can always retreat and look for answers in your prayers.

i wish you the best in your research and don't let the 3D effect fool you...

-------------nur

Posted By: Aneesah Shabazz
Date Posted: 13 September 2007 at 4:20am

Salaam Sister would anybody meet there husband online.i know somebody who meet there husband online they got married nov 3,2006 and they have not seen each other since they got married