Unsolved, unforgotten: Retired Harrington investigator pens letter

Lt. Joe Rader, pictured here at a 2009 press conference, is reaching out to the person who could help solve the Morgan Harrington case.

file photo by Hawes Spencer

Courtesy Harrington Family

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Nearly a year after he retired from Virginia State Police, leaving one of the highest-profile unsolved crimes in Virginia history to his successors, the former supervisor of the Morgan Harrington murder case remains haunted and has penned an open letter addressed to someone he believes knows what happened to the slain 20-year-old Virginia Tech student after she left the John Paul Jones Arena on a misty October night three years ago.

More:

"I have not run away from wanting to help find the TRUTH of what happened that chilly October night at JPJA and the bridge in Charlottesville," writes Retired Lt. Joe Rader, in an appeal to an unidentified person who knows what happened, even if he or she was not directly involved in Morgan's death.

"It is time for YOU to DO THE RIGHT THING and free the burden of your conscience with the information you have," reads the letter, in which Rader capitalizes certain words to emphasize the personal accountability for the secret-keeper.

As extensively reported, the young woman disappeared after she left and was denied reentry to the Metallica concert on October 17, 2009. Witnesses last reported seeing her hitchhiking on the Copeley Road bridge around 9:30pm. Her remains were discovered three months later on an Albemarle County Farm, and DNA evidence links the case to an unknown assailant in a 2005 Fairfax sexual assault. The perpetrator remains unknown, but Rader believes there is someone out there who could help bring him to justice.

"It is time for YOU to stand up in the name of humanity and justice," he writes. "It is time for YOU to show that you have a sympathetic and dignified place in your heart so heavily troubled, regardless of your involvement in the circumstances leading to Morgan’s death."

The full-page letter (linked below) is written on the letterhead of the nonprofit group that Morgan's parents Gil and Dan Harrington founded, Help Save the Next Girl, which raises awareness of violence against women. Most recently, says Gil Harrington, the group teamed with the Girl Scouts to provide age-appropriate education for a "safety badge" in Virginia.

Three years after Harrington's disappearance and death, her mother says the family seeks meaning by helping others, including frequent trips to Zambia through the nonprofit Orphan Medical Network International, where a recently opened school wing named for Morgan celebrated the first two classes of eighth graders passing the government exams at a 100 percent rate– "unheard of," Gil says, for most schools there. But while building such a legacy for her daughter tempers some of the grief, Mrs. Harrington says the family still suffers terrible anguish– compounded by not knowing what happened or who was responsible.

"You think you're doing okay," she says, "then you get blindsided."

Anyone with information about Morgan Harrington's death or disappearance is asked to call Virginia State Police tip line at 434-352-3467.

111 comments

JPJA being a Post 911 state of the art $162 million dollar facility with no video of Morgan leaving/being thrown out .

Corner gas station has a kid shoplifting bubble gum in HD.

The math don't add up

Just the Facts Jack November 15th, 2012 | 6:19am

Would the video from the arena even matter? All it would prove is that she attended the show. You need video from the bridge to see what stranger's car she got into when she was hitch hiking. That's likely where she encountered the bad guy.

michael sutton November 15th, 2012 | 6:57am

From Rader's open letter:

"Maybe you talked to law-enforcement and they missed your message."

I certainly agree with this statement, but I would leave out the word 'Maybe'

After the person tried they complained, then the bloggers started thier Frankenstein mob mentality, with torches and hate. The person is scared to come foward in this environment. I wish they would just send a strong signal. That the if that person know's but did not commit homicide that deal is on the table.

Rader was never interested in arresting a casual drug user, someone a history of non- capitol crimes. I wish they would state that they will offer protection from the last person with her and the crazies that post things like hunting him down and hanging, Address that they will not charge the person if they come foward as a part of the crime

Rader is good man! He has unfinished work, and I hope that the person he is speaking to goes to the keyboard or picks up the phone and make the call again.

Rader: "That has to be an image that causes you shame because you have the answers and know YOU must DO THE RIGHT THING." Listen to Rader, the truth will help you to live with yourself.

perhaps November 15th, 2012 | 8:24am

I would place money that the capitalizing of letters and phrases comes from some communication or other media that the investigators have not released.
Otherwise a personal letter from a former lead investigator with such seemingly childish writing comes across as very odd especially for a public forum.
Just stands out too much

shempdaddy November 15th, 2012 | 8:28am

The longer this goes on unsolved, the less likely any person with knowledge will come forward. Guilt fades faster than the fear of the consequences--so if there is someone who knows but was not culpable, they would need some sort of legal protection to make it even possible to come forward. Seeing the media frenzy around this, if there is such a person, they are likely to be unwilling to upend their lives, risk prosecution and media hounding to come forward at this point. The best hope of solving this crime seems to rest with the dna-hopefully the perp will get arrested for some non-violent offense and have to submit dna that matches.

Private I November 15th, 2012 | 8:39am

Joe is a smart man. Not to mention one of the greatest individuals you will ever meet.

Dakota November 15th, 2012 | 9:16am

On a good note :

Those hounds did a great job of tracking Morgan to the BRIDGE and seperating her from her cell phone ( sans battery) purse and of course UVA property.

Amazing dogs can't talk and video footage can .

lets summons the dogs= they tell a better story .

Voltaire November 15th, 2012 | 9:49am

Multiple witnesses put her on the bridge doing something dangerous: hitch hiking. The dogs simplify verify she on the bridge,and disappeared from there -- right where she was last seen. Not sure why that's so hard to understand.

Gasbag Self Ordained Expert November 15th, 2012 | 3:32pm

I agree, Joe is a smart man and one of the greatest individuals you will ever meet. This is why his letter surprises me. When this crime first took place, I also felt more than one suspect was involved, the incident on Statium Road the other day shows that it's somewhat hard to one person to abduct a female who is vigoursly fighting back. And I also felt in the Harrington case, that one of the suspects would turn state's evidence and roll over on the other(s) so as to save his own bacon. But that didn't happen. I therefore now believe that only one suspect was involved, and that suspect somehow coaxed Morgan Harrington to get in his car. It was the worst decision Morgan Harington ever made, but I think it was made voluntarily for whatever reason. As for the rest of the story, it went downhill fast and Morgan was unable to escape.

mike November 15th, 2012 | 6:56pm

about the webcams - there is a webcam(s) at the intersection of Ivy and Copeley, presumably the direction of travel if Moran got into a car going over the bridge to Ivy rd. Amazingly, it was reported that they were not operating at the date and time of Morgan's disapearance. Apparently, they are only turned on for major traffic events. It is hard imaging a major traffic event bigger than the cars going to and leaving a Metallica concert/show at the jpj. Go figure. No video inside or out at jpj. no video on the roadways leading out of jpj. There must be at least a hundred webcams all over that area, i.e. banks on Ivy, 7-11 etc.. were all of these cams checked. Is the date no longer available?

I too believe that more than one person was involved. I still believe this: two people can keep a secret - if one is dead.

Just the Facts Jack November 15th, 2012 | 9:29pm

They did check the webcams. Even took the ones from Foods of All Nations. Forget what you see on NCIS and Homeland -- in real life, cameras are only designed to take pictures of what's immediately around them, not far off roadways.

Maybe Morgan's a vampire. Just doesn't show up on film.

Dakota November 15th, 2012 | 9:52pm

I see some people have changed their views as time passes , understood .

Not me

The VSP are still doing NOTHING but BLIND fishing... trapping internet traffic and stirring up online CHATTER = THEY HAVE 0 to go on .

The attempted abduction was a good openeing to stir the thoughts.

Seeking Veritas - not the winery November 15th, 2012 | 11:48pm

@GBOE: I have believed from the outset that Morgan willingly entered a vehicle on or near the Copeley Road bridge. At no time did I believe that her assailant surprised her and immediately overcame her with physical force, i.e., a stranger jumping from the bushes, although that would have been otherwise easy to accomplish assuming Morgan was not in full control of all of her faculties on that fateful evening.

In any event, I believe that former Lt. Rader was speaking to an individual who *has knowledge* of certain of the events of that evening--not necessarily that this individual is directly *responsible* for her death. His missive does not seem to be one of someone who is begging for a perpetrator to cleanse their conscience by turning themselves in as the guilty party; rather, he is appealing to someone--a particular someone--to come forward with information that can *lead* to resolution of this case.

Joe was emphatic in his letter. Human beings operate out of multiple motives, and I likewise believe that the emphatic nature of the letter is reflective of several motives--all honorable, and all well-placed.

michael sutton November 16th, 2012 | 12:22am

@ Dakota November 15th, 2012 | 8:52pm:

I have not changed from the first time I contacted FBI. But, I do agree many have. I have reason to believ as Rader does that, even it was one person that was the last be with her, that there are at least 2 maybe 3 other people that know what led her to the final resting place.

There are things, that at the time had not been released that pinged off the charts from at least one person that swares that on 2 to 3 occasions tried to contact LE. This person was frustated, and does read almost every word wriiten about the case. They are not doing it to learn any thing new about the circimstances in the hours leading up to the her being with the last person with her. They know that! They have proved that the information was enough to prove without a doubt their calls or communications are factual.

"The VSP are still doing NOTHING but BLIND fishing... trapping internet traffic and stirring up online CHATTER = THEY HAVE 0 to go on ."

I agree to a point but :that someone had that fish on the line and failed to real the line in. Thus, Rader's is even more frustrated.

You are certainlty right about stirring up online chatter.

Anither point that seems so open but I have yet to comments on, is the t-shirt display, that is very possible. Remember the shirt was displayed long before the body was found.

It is mind boggeling that someone that escaped arrest from a crime for what now 8 years [Fairfax] would be so dumb to plant that shirt. I believe that the shirt was displayed by a person that had no idea she was dead, instead was either a pissed off female and or someone that was sending a signal. The singnal being, I am not going down with out you gowing down.

I stand behind what I have concluded. the are at least 2 more people other than the last person with her that know enough to help FBI and VSP find the truth.

Maybe Rader should just say, hey I am retired but, you can cop a deal or contact FBI or as he did list the various numbers.

I have a lot respect for Rader! It does not suprise me that this is one that keeps nagging at him and that he wrote this letter.

Ever think, that he was mocking the writting style, in fact he was not sending cryptic messages during his time of being the lead investagor, but now. He knows his writting style in the letter will surely draw the attention from the one that failed to get through the first or second time.

I also do find it almost impossible that JPJA has no images. But that for Gil's filling. It might help, I think not. But, let the suit do its thing.

@ GASBAG: this person is not going to turn state's evidence without protection! No amount of money is enough. Rader is asking and rightfully so, you tried before, please try again. It is more complex than casual friends. This person has reason the fear the public as well as a potential thrashing fro the last one with her.

*What 8 years from the Fairfax attack, just think how long that is to escape an arrest. The sketch person did NOT plant the shirt!

Just the Facts Jack November 16th, 2012 | 7:12am

Hey, Gil's suit (inexplicably filed in Roanoke, despite clear Virginia civil procedure that explains proper venue -- and Roanoke wasn't it by any stretch) was moved to Cville. Need a legal expert to chime in here. Why did her lawyers file in the wrong place? Was that a strategy, and if so, what's the hidden agenda?

Dakota November 16th, 2012 | 7:50am

"It does not suprise me that this is one that keeps nagging at him and that he wrote this letter."

Familiarize oneself with secondary trauma and reread the letter .

Just the Facts Jack November 16th, 2012 | 8:17am

Secondary trauma is an interesting theory. Do we think he stepped down from his job and the case because Gil's suffering got to him? Poor Joe. I feel even more sorry for him now. Heckuva way to end his career. Maybe he is looking for a little redemption by helping solve the case from the sidelines. I hope he gets it.

Seeking Veritas - not the winery November 16th, 2012 | 8:26am

I may be the lone hold-out with this theory but I do not now nor ever did believe that the t-shirt was "planted" by anyone remotely associated with this case. [For an individual who was involved in the case to plant the shirt would be to take the consummate risk. It is fair to assume that such a person would be extraordinarily reluctant to do anything that might provide a direct linkage to him/herself.]

The area where the shirt was found is rife with student residences. Students are routinely apt to leave all manner of items--including but not limited to items of clothing--in various and sundry places, especially following a weekend or major event, e.g., football game, concert, etc. It is completely conceivable that a student found this shirt--discarded earlier by Morgan's assailant--and, thinking it completely innocent, laid it out on the bush hoping/assuming it might be noticed and recovered by its rightful owner. It is completely conceivable that the person who placed the shirt there had no idea *at that juncture* that the shirt was in any manner linked to the then-missing Morgan Harrington.

Just keep repeating what the DOGS said ...sooner or later they will believe it .

Voltaire November 16th, 2012 | 9:31am

I'm with you, veritas. I think the police agree that there will be some rational explanation for the shirt that's not nefarious. In fact, I don't know how the theories about a significant other planting it as a warning make any earthly sense. The motives asrcibed just don't add up.

Voltaire November 16th, 2012 | 9:59am

Was it a Hook story that described how the beleagured detectives, hats in hand, had to make the painful pilgrimage to Gil every couple weeks to report that there was no progress in the case? I imagine that would take a psychic toll on one. Perhaps that secondary trauma theory has some basis in reality.

Add to it the internet 'bloggers' and facebook 'detectives' second guessing the police at every turn and publicly berating them for not sharing enough information -- only to reject whatever info the police do provide. Kind of a no win situation for the poor cops who I imagine have devoted so many manhours to this case and done their jobs well.

Gasbag Self Ordained Expert November 16th, 2012 | 11:57am

A job well done results in an arrest.

I would say the police have done as good as they can considering what little they have had to work with.

Dakota November 16th, 2012 | 3:04pm

I agree with the latest comments for the most part.

I drifted away from Morgans story after some time ......DID JPJA ever give an on the record explanation to why a post 911 state of the art $160+ Million Arena with limited DHS funds for security has hundreds of hours of camera footage of everything BUT that crucial timing where Morgan reportadly injured ended up OUTSIDE the arena ?When I left off I was hearing that NOTHING mattered that had to do with JPJA and the VSP was sure Morgan eneded up in the middle of the street ...... AFTER that nobody knows .

I am taking nothing has changed .

Wondering November 16th, 2012 | 10:26pm

Now remind me, Dakota, did you drift away before or after VSP showed up on your doorstep asking you questions about this case?

Dakota November 17th, 2012 | 8:58am

Wondering , sweetie , you will need to clarify witch time and what division of law enforcement ...local , state , federal , DHS or "people" from RNC event trying to find out what I know and WHY I wont stop ASKING in public forums about that video footage from JPJA .

Oh wait, I am not wondering about anything :) ...... I already know the answers so I will leave it to you guessing :)

good day

:0

michael sutton November 17th, 2012 | 10:17am

@Dakota November 17th, 2012 | 7:58am

Well said D !

Also Wondering November 17th, 2012 | 7:59pm

"you will need to clarify witch time and what division of law enforcement ...local , state , federal , DHS or "people" from RNC event trying to find out what I know and WHY I wont stop ASKING in public forums about that video footage from JPJA ."

Dakota, sounds like you are being harrassed. Why in the world would RMC (I think that is what you meant) be questioning you?

I will also add, I believe Morgan was on Video. There is really no way that she could not have been. I think this evidence is being held close to the chest of ivestigators.

Amana Rader Range November 17th, 2012 | 9:00pm

OMG, the world's most illiterate blogger is suggesting that Rader's repeated use of "do the right thing" has racial overtones that support her absurd slavery theory. Didn't she finally shut up about that (and never produce the big in-depth writeup she'd promised) after someone pointed out that oops, she'd been researching the wrong family?

Seeking Veritas - not the winery November 18th, 2012 | 7:53am

For those who might see in former Lt. Rader's use of the phrase "do the right thing" some manner of thinly-veiled reference to racial tension or a "strategically placed culturally significant phrase"--well, sometimes a rose is just a rose.

I repeat: sometimes a rose is just a rose.

To put a finer point on it, note Rader's *own* admonition near the start of his open letter, i.e., "Some people evaluated every word I said in press conferences as some sort of secret coded messages, but that was never the case." It would be reasonable to surmise that Rader has *not* with this letter--and direct reference to earlier, wrong-headed misinterpretations and alleged "secret codes"--decided to take a distinctly different tack and instead insert some coded message into this letter.

Such a contradiction (not to mention, cognitive dissonance that would result) would be easily discernable.

And when someone (in this case, Rader) pleads "Please, do the right thing" they mean *precisely* that and nothing more, i.e., "Please, do the right thing." They mean that if you or someone you know has information--in this case, a key piece of information--that might help to solve this case, please contact LE and come forward.

That was the alpha and the omega of former Lt. Rader's plea. I for one (and undoubtedly countless others) see his plea for exactly what it was. There was no sublte reference to Spike Lee's 1989 comedy-drama movie, no intent to telegraph a message directed to one racial group or another, and no implication of any cultural legacy or significance to Anchorage Farm.

To believe otherwise is the height of folly. Anyone uncertain of that should feel free to contact Rader directly to confirm same.

michael sutton November 18th, 2012 | 8:40am

@Seeking Veritas - not the winery November 18th, 2012 | 6:53am

I certainly agree. Having spoken with him several times and from visits from his team, he certainly is a man of honor and not looking for un-called for drama. Perhaps, it is bit of mocking the overall bloggers and posters that have done nothing but send the case to the almost impossible.

It could be simply that he wrote the letter, and decided not to have it edited. I for one admire the letter.

It is such a shame that a crime of this importance and a man of his record be drawn into the crazies, the bloggers and the a couple of the last few posying here. It diminishes his message to some when bloogers use his words to further their own desire to be in the media.

To attack or suggest Dakota was envolved in the subject of Rader's letter is insane! Dakota seems to be an easy target, the shame is that it pulls away from the objective of the letter.

Personnaly, anyone can attack me as far as I am the subject. But neither I nor Dakota nor Gasbag are in anyway involved in a crime associated with this letter. Ironicly we 3 have all been attacked. There is no secret who each of the 3 of us are. I do not think any of us could care less if it were not for the distraction to someone who may want to contact the agtenciest Rader listed.

Seems Dakota now has been labeled as havibg a 3rd Mother that serves him taters. What in the heck does that have to do with Rader's letter. It has been 3 years people, contribue even the lest that you have, it helps. But to just try to de-rail the purpose of this letter serves no-one.

Seems to me, Gil agrees with Dakota on the image capturing system. Gasbag offers a real very real look into the LE of the area. Up intill the last few post from people not using their names or handle everything has been constuctive. I am like most, I hope that Rader is doing ok and is finding away to retire. I hope that people respect the article and that his message reaches the people or the person it is intendend for.

Wish we had more people like Dakota! Local and expressing themselves about the many things that could be fixed to help this from happening again.

Attack us, but do it own your leader's page, leave it out of the Hook's articles please!

duannah November 18th, 2012 | 10:19am

Mr Sutton:

It is nice to see you posting in a rational manner at this time, but you must realize your previous posts in The Hook have not totally disappeared nor been forgotten. You have a tendency to attack people involved in this case and then come back later and say everyone else should calm down when someone questions your past. Rader is a fine man to you now, but what about your previous posts about him? (Which are still available.)

I know nothing of Dakota. Gasbag has never posted anything I can say is abnormal or strange regarding this case. I think, being a former policeman, his posts may be enlightening. I don’t know why you would include him in your comparisons unless possibly to try to add credence to your current postings.

But, Mr. Sutton, your posts are anything but enlightening. Now you are posting supporting Rader. But, in the past, under your own name, you have posted some truly strange things. Those of us who have kept up with the case know the cycle. So, forgive me when I say that it is very hard to take what you say seriously and although you are entitled to your opinion, that opinion varies in a big way from posting to posting and thus, people are going to be reminded of that when you do post.

Personally, I think your mercurial and sometimes scary posts might be the reason some are inhibited from saying anything regarding this case. You may talk of locals with “torches” but mainly, what people familiar with the case remember is you, armed with odd verbal attacks on so many who have been involved (even marginally) with it. Even though those attacks are erased from The Hook, they are not erased from memory. Please, I bear you no malice, but have you never considered that what you have portrayed on these boards the last three years might be a hindrance to tips in the case?

I have no “leader” Mr Sutton, except myself. I am local to Charlottesville and I have tried to help bring anything to light that might help in this case. Do you not consider it possible that someone who might have some knowledge in this case might seriously be intimidated from coming forward by possibly fearing being attacked or made a mockery of at some point by something you post?

And, I choose not to post under my real name as you urge, but under a name you will recognize; you being states away and me being right here where Morgan Harrington was attacked.

I hope others will forgive me for responding; I have often wondered if Mr Sutton has ever given thought to what effect some of his own words might have on the case. I will not post again, the question has been asked and the answer needs to be one that Mr Sutton answers to his own heart, not to me.

michael sutton November 18th, 2012 | 11:52am

duannah November 18th, 2012 | 9:19am

Thank you. I do accept my past wording. I also thank you again, and do I believe I acknowledged your very clear paosting of the FBI page. I ate crow and printed so.

Dunnah, I have had several meetings with LE in my home and on the phone. You may not understand, but sometimes people with real information have found me as someone to reach out to. I cer6tainly understand that you do not feel that way.

As far as enlightening that is your view. I can assure you that in Rader's letter there is a message to someone. I do not think Rader would waste tax paper's money to meet with me in L.A.. That said, all that we could surmise was that that there was a complaint that a person had tried several times to get through.

I assure you that the MODs at FM were aware and assisted me on those occassions.

With out a dorect link, there was no way that my info could be traced, but there is someone out there that does know, did want to help and was nor is a murderer.

I ahve never included in you in Frankenstein mob, but as you take my inventory I suggest you look back as posted 100's of post to "RED". That could percieved as you say:

**** I think your mercurial and sometimes scary posts might be the reason some are inhibited from saying anything regarding this case.****

I would care to argue that your dedicated sole thread on the PR failure of FindMorgan.com did far worse damge than anything I have ever done.

As a matter of fact that was mentioned to me by a contact with some very good information.

One thing I know for sure, I want the truth, Dakota wants the truth, I believe you want the truth! I never questioned your desire, ever. We dis-agree,. But getting to the point, I do not know nor care how close you were to the FM mods, but I asure Rader does and his team understand my methods. I am not saying they always approve. But There is no doubt, Rader is very fine man! His word is gold.

I remember a time when on FM when it was pro-VSP VS anti-VSp. But when VSP said hitchicking 90 percent of those pro LE people denied the factual statement.

I also would like to add that admire you, Kenny and J.Me for always using your original titles.

It makes it so much better. I think your a fine person, I am not wooried about us becoming friends or trying to wooe you or ask for understanding.

What I am asking is for people like you, [That means good people] to not hang in here and do not let the UFO people and the Blogger so often mention de-rail what is Rader's focus, VSPs focus, FBI's focus and most citizen's focus.

Unles you posted on this section using a different ID, I do not understand why you would think I included you in the flock that follows the Leader { the blooger } rooted in racist remarks. I certainly do not think that you have any such feelings! I believe in your heart you think there is a murderer out there and you could care less what color, sex, religion.

I just do not think there was a murder, so dis agree. We will nevr know until there is an arrest and 12 people say yes it was. Till then, we disagree, but that does not mean we both do not want to find the truth.

Now to the letter, I think he did a very very good thing. He explains it. It as a father a Citizen and more.Now no way we argue about that.

Some one else spoke of the blooger in comments on this article. All 3 of us, have had our names trashed as has every musician, black man, artist, basletball player, cop, security, parking attendant, ex-cop or just interested citizen by that blooger.

She does nothing but denie that she she was the sole reason VSP and FBI did not get follow through before she reported that Ms Pham's murderer was the same as Morgan's. Have any of you thought of how that damaged the PHAM family?

Amana Rader Range November 18th, 2012 | 4:08pm

She pats herself on the back for forcing LE to release info about the sketch well before they were ready to. She probably should have been charged with interfering with an ongoing police investigation. Who knows what harm she caused by alerting the perp.

cat November 19th, 2012 | 2:28pm

Kudos to Lt Rader for coming forward like this. Hopefully this will keep the pressure on the Charlottesville police who are trying to downpedal this investigation and "move on". Gil is correct, this person or persons will strike again.

Dakota November 19th, 2012 | 2:53pm

Amazing what a few words strung out in a thread can bring out if you let them sit awhile :)

Anyway....with a descent understanding that Lt. Raders letter could be a lame trolling attempt written by some yahoo from the FBI or god knows who to try and fish out some info published attached to recent events that may not contain a touch of truth from Lt. Rader ..............

My one talent tells me the letter came from the soul of a Man task in the Public arena to find Morgan.

With that said , I strongly apologize to Lt. Rader for being so harsh and acting like a damn...IDIOT in a public manner as I did with Morgans dissapearence and death. You had a monumental task of first ,finding Morgan with NOTHING to work with to the painful event of having to lead her Mother and Father to her bones . I say that here opposed to sending you a card or email as I treated you like shit....in public , so I needed to right my wrongs in the same manner.

I never ruin a good apology with an poor excuse.

Dakota

Dakota November 19th, 2012 | 3:05pm

Now this is to my #1 stalker :) She knows who she is

I will give it to you girl , 3 years and going
and you still care. My thoughts on you have changed also :) in a good way, never was bad lol ...just sheeese you did get a little like that creepy bieber girl on yahoo...own it :) but its all good you were one of the good stalkers :)

I will say more............in a few days but not here...you know I think the Hook is great ,they did a good job dealing with Morgans death and still do( they slipped on the 3rd anv a bit) but overall GREAT JOB.It got personal I think for A LOT of people ..me included

BUT the comment section here sux...lol so dear stalker you know my game and where to look for the redmeat next girl when I want to be heard :)

see ya there. because if my theory is correct you will be there

Just the Facts Jack November 19th, 2012 | 8:57pm

In a bizarre twist to a continually bizarre case... VSP denies that Jumpin' Joe was ever assigned to Morgan's investigation, or investigated it? A Roanoke reporter says on his FaceBook page that he got a letter from VSP stating such.

Okay, this was a simple error. The Harringtons gave Joe Rader’s letter to their Help Save the Next Girl PR person. This person wrote a cover letter for Joe’s letter and made the error, but Joe Rader never saw it before it was released to the media. He didn’t know about the error until it was in print, and then it was too late. Sorry, nothing bizarre. Just an error.

Now, can people just concentrate on the message?

Seeking Veritas - not the winery November 19th, 2012 | 10:36pm

It is beyond unfathomable that anyone might believe for a nanosecond that former Lt. Rader was never assigned to Morgan's investigation.

One has only to view the several VSP press conferences and related videos to appreciate that Mr. Leamon's post on his FB page was inaccurate.

Frances S. is correct; let us focus on facts.

Notthistime November 19th, 2012 | 10:51pm

Seeking V. Well said. And re:VSP letter, me thinks there is something very rotten in Denmark. Anyone turning in tips might want to turn into FBI.

michael sutton November 19th, 2012 | 11:16pm

Well thats the problem with the Dan PR people. You can never beleve one single word that comes from them. Does not suprise me.

Even with that, the message is ceratinly the point. Lets hope it reache's it's target or targets.

Okay, lemme' see if I've got this straight. The VSP were so confused/annoyed by Joe's cover letter (written not by Joe, but by HSTNG PR man, aka KJ?) referring to Joe as the "lead investigator," that they retaliated by denying all knowledge of any guy named Joe with regard to Morgan's case?

Clear as mud.

Frances S November 20th, 2012 | 12:06am

You don't have anything straight. The Harringtons have an actual PR person (a woman) for Help Save the Next Girl and that was the person who handled this. The VSP simply said Joe Rader was never assigned to or investigated the Morgan Harrington case. Joe Rader was in charge of the investigations unit at Appomattox. In CHARGE. So he probably was familiar with lots of investigations but never actually investigated them. VSP was obviously going by the book and wanted to correct the error that was made in calling him lead investigator in the cover letter.

Truth Finder November 20th, 2012 | 12:07am

No, Joe wrote the letter and it was sent to the media by someone from the HSTNG group.Kenny did not send the letter. He sent it to Dan and Gil. All this is being blown out of proportion and people are getting side tracked here. The message was simply asking someone to come forward that may have information that could help LE solve this case. The article above explains that. Focus on the message of the letter.

Frances S November 20th, 2012 | 12:09am

And I agree with Truth Finder. The message of his letter is the most important thing here.

Johnny Blaze November 20th, 2012 | 3:33am

More meaningless freakshow BS "Michael." I'd love to see whoever did this behind bars. You have been absolutely no help in making that happen.

On the contrary as others have pointed out no one with any information is likely to come forward because of the media circus they would have to endure. Murder groupies and true crime obsessed wannabe detectives have extended the run of that circus far longer than it might have gone on otherwise.

Far from helping to solve anything, you have collectively done nothing but insure that the perpetrator, if he or she is still alive, will never be caught without making another big screw up of some sort.

Amana Rader Range November 20th, 2012 | 5:00am

We don't need to focus on the contents of the letter if we don't have any info on whodunnit or where else she might have gone that night or how she got to the farm or how she met the bad guy (tho if you know anything like that, tell the police already, ok?) We need to focus on why VSP told a reporter that Rader was not the lead investigator on Morgan's case and never investigated it. If true, what was his role? Investigating people in LA? Trying to grasp the upshot of this apparent revelation (and the revelation that Rader went to the trouble to fly to LA to talk with someone who commented alot online). Who was and/or is the lead investigator?

Amana Rader Range November 20th, 2012 | 5:08am

Ohhhh, sorry. Missed the post that explained Rader was large and in charge. So he was like a spokesmodel at those pressers. We didn't really hear from those investigating the case. And VSP thought it important to correct that. Got it.

Seeking Veritas - not the winery November 20th, 2012 | 8:06am

With all due respect to conspiracy theorists who find themselves too easily distracted by bright,shiny objects, it is past time to stand down.

The collective "we" are well-advised to maintain focus.

The focus is and should be on Morgan.
The focus is and should be on Rader's commendable effort to bring forth additional information that might help to solve this case.

Period.

Full stop.

michael sutton November 20th, 2012 | 8:23am

@ Amana Rader Range November 20th, 2012 | 4:00am

Seems you have some wrong info, not that your not trying to figure it out. The letter portion and the aftermath are distracting. Rader did not fly to L.A. . FBI has been a part of this from the first week. OPlease remember the East Coast Rapist and the bicycle MO. SO they have been there all a long.

Rader had good resaon to send people to me at my request and his agreeing.

The FBI was interested in everything I had, but the focus was on a a couple of contacts I got including a lot of info on some one that saw a black man and a whiteman. I cannot get into the info. I point that out because this was a long time before any sketch was released. To one of the mods credit they gave me your local FBI office with-in 10 minutes after I requested it.

All of the info was fresh, I shared a little with one of the mods. The details were so exact and the person insisted on me helping to get the message through, believe it or not! Why me, well ask that person.

But just to let you know, there was Dino, the lead detective. Rader was always in control and never was their even a suggestion to me that the 2 agencies and a special Virgina agency ivolved in cyber stuff had any dis=agreement. They were a TEAM. That was for sure.

This person did try to contact an agency twice. before reaching out to me. I did what that person asked me to do. I cannot speak for Rader, but I believe that is constant with this line from the letter: "maybe you talked to law-enforcement and they missed your message".

Now Rader did follow up with me and did tell me that a few of the other leads were not good, they did not come from that person. But it did cut down on the possibilities. Rader never said Michael you had the person we messed it up, he never said that, to be clear.

I do know that he confirmed a similar call, I am not sure it was a messsage or not It was found months latter, they did have the similar information and it was not followed up on at the original time.

This information was in detail! Very Very specific.

No as to what has happened on Facebook at the PR person and the delivery of the letter, it could simply be that VSP wanted the word out that Rader was not on the case anymore and to contact not someone not rader.

But that flys in the face of the letter. Rader clearly points several points of contact. I always will sugest FBI. I know some people have a fear of the FEDs, but then you know it will get through.

I hope the person tries to contact someone. This person wanted to help, I see were Rader states this:

"Is it embarrassment, fear, stigma, or skepticism that your information might point the finger at you? YOU have the TRUTH that will lead to solving the case, and that information will set your conscience free and bring peace to a family. The facts you have can be verified, but you must be totally honest. Half-truths are no more than little lies and will not relieve your heavy burden. It is time for YOU to come full circle and DO THE RIGHT THING!:

Perhaps the info given to me had half truths, I do not know. I do know at one time this person wanted to be interviewed by the police.

I only can state that the last time I believe this person made any contact it was to state that they were appalled by the raciest statements made on FM and the other blogger.

That was not a good few weeks for FM. People were posting that after the sketch they were following cars around. There were blantant racist remarks and threats. Seemed that half of the black population were suspects. I

The racist stuff still continues today on the other bloggers site. It is the foundation of her theory.
I strongly believe that this person did not murder anyone. I believe there is a chance, and it seems rader hopes so too.

So, the hate is over whelming, I believe it is fear and disgust. I hope Rader touches upon something in his words that ring so true to this person that they do call or use the web.

What would happen if this person was seen leaving in a unmarked car and someone in local police leaked it.

I say go the FBI, as for protection, refrence the same info and spew it! Cop a plea to as your not reporting it earlier, you tried to so it should not be a problem. But if you don't like rader says it sure makes it look like the finger will be pointed at you unless you call first. So person, listen to rader, he wants the truth!

Maybe there was a misprint from VSP, to that reporter. I question if it was even a officer on the force for more than 3 years that even sent to correction request. But what ever it was, it certainly created the opposite action from the original letter.

That is something that I think Hawes could clarify, just to clear that portion up, why the stsstement that Rader was not involved in the case.

He was so involved, he even did a re-creation whre the spot was the exact spot were the tip said it would be. It is out there. He is touting some newer tech equipment.

Amana Rader Range November 20th, 2012 | 9:16am

Ah. This is what confused me: "I do not think Rader would waste tax paper's money to meet with me in L.A"

So...he in fact did NOT fly to L.A. That's better. Yeah, I recall Rader showing off the high tech toy (bought with seized drug money if memory serves) that could be used to recreate Morgan's travels through the parking lot to dazzle the jury. Not that anything in the parking lot seems to have mattered much. All the action seems to have happened after she left the area by car after hitching on the bridge. Rader was getting ahead of himself a bit I guess. First they need to catch the bad guy. I'm still skeptical that anyone but the bad guy picked her up, because she probably appeared to be a super easy target, but who knows. If there's someone else out there with knowledge, I hope they try again to get it to someone who will listen.

michael sutton November 20th, 2012 | 9:51am

Look back at that article, you will see the little image. I believe it was the reporter or someone familar with the gaget. You will notice first that whole big image is taken from a different vantagepoint from any satelite images like the public's Google, Mapquest or yahoo. Then notice where the fighure is, it is not on the bridge, now is it?

By the way, some assume that people in L.A do not have family in VA. Those people are very short sided.Especially this time of year when travel is not unusuall.. Let them think what they will. There are many people in L.A. with roots in Virginia, very many. Also the the Bay, lots of boats, good food and vets. Not to mention D.C..

So what ever.

I'll leave you with, it was told that she was having fun!

No what to think about the suposed VSP satement about rader?

Well, hope they clear it up and get back to letter and it's contents.

Pray, Rader's wordering and latter interview on NBC Local hits its target and gets some action from the one or the ones that count!

cat November 20th, 2012 | 10:49am

Amazing that almost noone posting here is at all interested in finding anything about Morgan's death, just in promoting themselves. I suggest that D and MS take some grammer and spelling lessons and get lives. Fortunately none of the Harringtons read any of this, and I am sorry that I descended to it this last time. Lt Rader is to be commended and hopefully this murderer or the murderers will be found before someone else is killed. Hope anyone sane who is reading this has a good Thanksgiving.

cville cares November 20th, 2012 | 11:53am

More than likely, not a soul reading or posting here has info to break the case. Doesn't mean no one cares. I imagineanyone bothering to wade through the comments is still hoping for an arrest, or for some new nugget of insight that will lead to one. Or because thy enjoy seeing all the old characters that are part of this sad but colorful case.

All the old theories are fair game wth the release of that letter. Almost gives credence to the old s jones theory that she went for a ride on the train tracks to harvest pot. Or that she did something with someone other than the bad guy that night. That seems to be Rader's hope anyway.

michael sutton November 20th, 2012 | 5:30pm

@cville cares November 20th, 2012 | 10:53am

I think you already know, but I am S Jones. I stsrted using my real name after the FBI visit., due to an unfortunate event involving a poster that I never knew, that resulted in death.

I assure you Dakota can spell just fine.

Thanks for the kind words and yes even in what you see here and in the letter, sometimes writting and use of Caps can have influence.

What worked before may just work again, all theories are on the table I suppose. Just think about the population of C-ville and percentage of minorities. The % that could have some onfo have been aliagnated by the racist statements by others. Drivig back underground those that just may help. Even the musicians and former LE have been slandered. I never use names on suspects ever. Dakota is not a suspect.

So let the letter do its thing: as to others the haters: I am still here, like it or not there is good reason for it, SO is the object to find the truth or not to if I have anything right? Do you so hate me, you rather the case go unsolved? That seems to be a possibility and if so, some of you are almost as bad as the the events.

Back to the letter:

"It is time for YOU to stand up in the name of humanity and justice. It is time for YOU to show that you have a sympathetic and dignified place in your heart so heavily troubled, regardless of your involvement in the circumstances leading to Morgan’s death."

This Holiday season may bring people back to the area for visits. Perhaps Rader is i so smart that he timed it this way. If that someone has been away, trying to forget, maybe he or she or them will get the letter. Lets pray so!

cville cares November 20th, 2012 | 6:16pm

Amen!

michael sutton November 20th, 2012 | 7:56pm

I am not sure it is reporter's job to investigate another reporter. I think Hawes should try to get a handle on this Joe not being the man thing. I wish he would. Let Court do her own thing.

You know it's like its not the crime, but the cover-up that gets attention. For what ever reason I have been told by others that have not contacted me in years that they heard the Rader was never the man, when asked they did not even read the letter. What a shame.

PR people should not be involved, ever. Got something to say, speak and take questions. Rader did speak, he took questions and it is so sad that the PR people promted this bizzare event.

Guess what, PR lady, any publicity is not always good publicity. Rader's message has swept under the rug becouse of your own actions, admit it. PR has no place in a homicide investigation, ever!

This is not an election where you can hide 47% percent comment. What we saw there and what we see know with this distraction is peak behind the PR machine. And it is very bad. Just look at the former FM anmins and thier asssociates trying to explain it away. It was not like their explaination.

PR does not work, if you repeat it thousands of times it will not make the good people of Virginia believe it. So clear it up!

Please, let a responcible journalistic editor ask the questions. Are you PR people so set in your ways that you cannot see, that Rader's message is now not the story, becouse you mis-handled it.

The world does not take the few post on facebook as credible.

Rader deserves better, Morgan deserves better, after 3 years there is no need for PR.

Grumpy November 21st, 2012 | 10:00am

I think what messed up this case was the early hiring of the PR firm. As soon as they made her out to be a better and more innocent person than any other victim, and made the parents out to be more worthy of their grief than any other parents, the public lost interest. The public knew better and wouldn't have cared. Most don't like being fed lies or being told how to believe. It usually backfires. I think they just need to let the police do their job and quit all the meddling. I can't imagine there is a person out there who doesn't want this thing solved, except maybe the loner who killed her.

michael sutton November 21st, 2012 | 11:52am

Grumpy November 21st, 2012 | 9:00am

Truer words have never been written. Yet, they continue. Someone I ran into wrote of this and we agree it has been proven that in this era of teck advances that the police need no PR.

Perhaps, that is why you see the friction. If you The Dog he was quite good in explaining it.

The PR was set on this "shinny" word and put dreams out as fact. Now after the letter written suggested a shooting, a hunting, someone could have explained that was not factual. That was a woman who was taking her past, growing up as I did with Kennedy's, Dr. King her loss together with the loss of her Daughter.

But the PR Firm allowed this mis-information. The "This "C'ville man: staements. Tons of other things just allowed a person with real information to say to themselves easily " this thing is so wack, I am not going to have any part of it". I tried to help and this is what I get?

The PR firm just distroyed the truth. Opened the doors to all types of nuts. Distarcted then to the plea's of VSP as has done it again this past week.

Ther is someone that has information! I know it!

So in spite of the PR firm and the new one, just let Rader's letter stand on it's own!

I hope the target saw the interview on NBC29 with Rader. Because that man is trying to help.

PR does not belong in a homicide case!

Voltaire November 21st, 2012 | 12:10pm

The PR was an interesting experiment. It certainly spurred long lasting interest in the case, and even slavish devotion by some. But it hasn't, obviously, helped solve the thing. That is likely to come through a dna match and whatever other physical evidence the police have gathered. In the end, it would be interesting to hear law enforcement's take on whether the PR was a help or hindrance. I imagine they were swamped with do-gooders suggesting all kinds of outlandish theories they read or discussed on the internet, possibly making it hard for the police to sort through them to find actual tips from witnesses. At one point, Rader had to specifically ask for real leads, not theories. My assessment would be that the early PR campaign has helped keep it in the news whenever there's an opportunity. Morgan is a star among victims, as odd as that sounds. It may have gotten her extra resources -- good for her case, maybe not so good for the bottom line, or those without name recognition. It's a fair question to ask how many resources one case deserves.

michael sutton November 22nd, 2012 | 1:26am

Voltaire November 21st, 2012 | 11:10am

I certainly cannot speak for LE, but we have had a unsolved murder in my family, my Father passed away this year with that still bothering him so after 30 years.

I have been going to murder trials and have been paid for services from the time I was 18.

FBI and most police do not care for PR or anything that clouds the facts.
Perhaps this can give you a look into the feelings of the Police and PR:

"Just the Facts Jack November 19th, 2012 | 7:57pm
In a bizarre twist to a continually bizarre case... VSP denies that Jumpin' Joe was ever assigned to Morgan's investigation, or investigated it? A Roanoke reporter says on his FaceBook page that he got a letter from VSP stating such.
http://www.facebook.com/ScottLeamonWsls?ref=ts&fref=ts"

The first thing always told to family is share NOTHING, even with your friends and family.
This is so important for sorting through real tips and someone who heard something not released by the police. See sometimes that info gets out via a leak not from police but but from family or friends.

This complicates so much deciding what to get deeper into.
It could be something as a family member at a gathering saying I cqn't believ they shot him, that SOB.See sometimes the method of murder is not released, as in this case. SO now you have a family member suggesting such,! See the problem. Ever wonder why Geller kept such a lid on it with Rader as the Lead.

It is up to you to decide if you think it is so.

I hope Rader's letter works. His interview explains it. He was not seeking PR, he had a story to tell, not the samething. KJ did nothing wrong he delivered the letter to someone that then realeased the letter.
If you had read the Press release by the original PR firm talking up their civic duty to help [without pay] the family. Classic case of PR promotiong PR and promoting themselves.

Look at their other clients and I think you may see what I am speaking off.

Happy Thanksgiving, hope the person with info is with their family, perhaps back in the area visiting and the letter is discussed. Hope that person can find the strength to DO THE RIGHT THING!

Amana Rader Range November 22nd, 2012 | 9:26am

Well they certainly were able to contain the friends. You never hear a peep from them -- not just the ones there that night, but any others. The message boards and comment sections devoted to Morgan are filled with adult strangers who wished they knew her, or an adult professor who did. It's as though she has no contemporaries, no schoolmates, no peers, no love interests, no exes. I'm sure that's not true -- there just be at least 8 close ones, "the nine," but it's so very strange that you never hear a thing from them. It's not like these kids don't know about the internet or facebook.

Grumpy November 22nd, 2012 | 9:33am

Amana, yeah what's up with all that? There is nothing left of the real Morgan. Where are all the people who actually knew her? She was hijacked.

michael sutton November 22nd, 2012 | 10:29am

But the sister of one did post. It was beautiful. The FM mod's deleted it. It was very long hand typed letter. I saved it. She contacted me and said she had not saved it, so was like in tears. I and a couple of people asked to submit again.I gave her her text.

She did it was reposted by J.Me, shortly after it was put into the holding been.

I PM'd with her for a while. Exchanged other ways to contact. She answereed direst question one of the two girls were in the room as she answered. She ia quite wonderful and worried for heer sister. Understand that the Blogger as well as some FM people had crucified them in print. If it was a murder they were very scared they maybe next.

Some of what is said about them is just so false. They were easy to speak with, they explained to me how the transportation went down,. the order of the calls. Everything, they were quite fine giving me that info. As I read the FM's explaiontion of events it was so wrong. Maybe the parents believed it. Court knew alot. There was much out there that was just totally wrong. Everything from the Mettalica Shirt to that Morgan did not have it. I knew this for months and J.Me just would not let up. Their theory was that Morgan got out of the Pantera shirt because it was wet and changed into the Mettalic shirt.

Boy did all of those blooger people and FM

So much is just not true, the pictures in the people refuse to listen to me. They were quick to explain all of it. The Holloween pixs, they were expecting here to show up, they did not think she was dead, no way. The month was up roomates have things to discuss. It is so sad, all of the bad info that the parents could ahve coeared up. I suppose it was the PR people. I can believe VSP told anyone to stop that info. Why would they? It was no secret that I knew that stuff.

The pictures at the party, come on, they were teasing her. They had no idea. I can prove it. Court knows stuff, so much from how the bag was recovered, the order and by whom and when. Court was so cool, because she could have started a freak show, We knew for a fact that it was a member of the Lacrose team. Then when Hugley did his thing. Wow!

But these were not secrects, not the so called kick-kee. Just so much crap and how could VSP keep up with it, when the parents had a PR firm. Can you see how the 2 do not mix.

So at that tiime this the way FM would have you believe. We have a blond, wearing a Metallica shirt walking around on the night of a Metallica concert. Come on, talking about hundreds of girls now, dressed in black, wobbley. Man, Rader must have pulled his hair out.

Their Facebook pages have several pictures of them to this day. Those girls loved Morgan, still do.

Amana Rader Range November 22nd, 2012 | 10:30am

It's like they vanished with her. I can understand her folks not wanting them to talk in the beginning, just in case they'd say something unhelpful like "Oh, she used to take off like that all the time; she'll be back" and accidentally derail or delay the missing persons investigation. But I wonder why they remain gone gone gone. Maybe they've seen the attacks and reckless theorizing that come from speaking up.

Amana Rader Range November 22nd, 2012 | 10:48am

Thanks, Michael. I never knew any of them posted. That's nice to know. I never thought they were mocking her in those photos. That's one place I believe Gil -- that the friends loved her. I tend to believe the accounts that they hung around after the show in case she showed up or turned her cell phone back on. And even the accounts that say they stayed there and checked again in the morning. Well, I'm not sure what they really did, but I'm sure they meant no harm at all, whatever their actions.

michael sutton November 22nd, 2012 | 10:57am

They did try! Trust me! Fm maybe someone higher than KJ unplugged it. Many saw the post, we even for a while had seen in print responces from them. They did answer, then another friend, not one of 9 posted. Ever hear of BlabberMouth. It is Page / blog that focuses on metal music. There was ton's of info from people at the concert, tons. There were post a day before the concert.

The friends had reason to not be worried. But that would be just a normal Co-ed to most of us. We could see that and not judge her. BUT NNOOOOO! No way would PR have that conflict with the "shinny". No Way!

The phone too! Come on, you don't really think thats the first time that battery came out now do you? It seemed to only happen when she was avoiding athority. You really believe that the phone's battery compartment had a bad latch. really, but thats fine, most co-ed's want their freedom. So what. She was normal young woman, with all the fralities and courousity that others have. She was a damn good artist too! Artist march to a different drummer so to speak!

Those friends were and are good people, very good and Amy has shown up at events. There are many pictures!, She was not shielded!

michael sutton November 22nd, 2012 | 11:06am

There are a lot more people that have that info. There were at least 4 or 5 that were amazed when those post were pulled. I was on the phone with the Mods, there was nothing negitive hitting the fa. In those cases on FM, I was just one of a few. Most of tthose few knew more about following other;s PM's than I. They taught me on the spot.

That program was flawed, big time. But, shutting down the Friends, I do not believe that was done by J.me or the other mods. I think it came from a higher place and that it was not the FBI or VSP!

I can tell you this, Rader was no fan of the blooger nor was he comfortable with a lot of FM stuff. There were so many good blogs, not the natorious one, the racest. Not FM, their we quite a few with info flowing.

Dakota was a damn good resercher, we crossed paths so many times. PR has its own problems! The poor man that found her body, they ripped his family apart! Just horrible!

Amana Rader Range November 22nd, 2012 | 4:00pm

That blogger. Despicable. Why didn't the cops shut her down? Not for her convoluted theories that dragged anyone within a 200 mile radius thru the mud, but when she had to get the jump on the sketch even though she had the facts all wrong as usual.

Amana Rader Range November 22nd, 2012 | 5:31pm

Let's recount the stupid theories.

A musical connection.
A slavery connection.
The farmer's daughter.
The limo driver
The groundskeepers.
Security/off duty cops.
Willie Morris.
The music video hippie.
Satanists.
Snuff film makers.
A naughty concessionaire.
She never made it to the show.
She went to the gay club.
Killed by a jealous friend of Alex over the necklace.
Killed by a band of gays jealous of her beauty.
Killed by illegal aliens.
Killed by rogue CIA agents or a sleeper cell.
Killed by Joran Ven Der Sloot during his trip to VA.
Killed by a bicyclist at the paranormal bike thingy.
Related to the fire that occurred hours BEFORE her body was found, and not actually near the farm.
Killed by the BB players or their families.

Anything but killed by the guy who attacks women kind of randomly, as he did in Fairfax.

Amana Rader Range November 22nd, 2012 | 5:51pm

Oh. And any theory that says the police *know* who it is, but are just building a case or waiting for the person to slip up.

HELLO. They have DNA. They don't need a trick play.

michael sutton November 22nd, 2012 | 6:10pm

Tree cameras!
A certain ex-cop with a common last name, gave directions and the route of a daughter to school. [this one was perhaps the sickest].
Remember it could not be an asain, as she stated.
Whole article on Bail Bonding Man, pictures trying to ruin his client list.

I mean this is the largest group of, "if you throw enough crap against the wall". She's thinks she's bound have all the bases covered. For what, a reward?

Introduced all to Observer, Skyler and Clarity. Then claims brain injury, job related to UVA, and a conspiricy that Clarity shut down FM. I like that one, cause for a moment she forgot about me.

Her going on FM claiming intulectual property for some of this crap. Wanted quoations and credits.

How part 2's did we never see?

Dakota got her with two of what you listed. He set her up, he id her in.
Who's hat, what hat? Throwing bricks, cheesy jump suits.

The DNA could be traced eventually to Adam and Eve, or no, what about the Asains?

Pham, the asolute worst, denieing it. Then it was pointed out it was in the title of the article that you put in the address bar. That person was loyal to her, after that one, no more hat? Poof, gone.
Her inside connections, her forming the search parties or being instrimental in them.

Then, oh, thats just this case.

The Anthony's and others.
Leaving all of her poster's IP's avalible for anyone to view on her web site meter.
Slandering Bulldog.

I know we missed a few.

michael sutton November 22nd, 2012 | 6:14pm

Almost forgot, she claimed Couretney posted on her site using a fake name to get info.

Kick-kee: she cannot stand that Court got that, and that about 5 of us had contact with him.

michael sutton November 22nd, 2012 | 6:23pm

This is about this artcle and the letter.

But, see their take on the SAME letter.
They say it proves it the basketball player or their kin, lover whatever.

J.me associated with her, can't wait for her explaining the letter. Then the e-mail saying Rader' was not in-charge.

Let the letter be read!
Let the word get out, as Rader states the person follows the case, so the person Rader is trying to reach maybe will see all are not like that poster and her kind. Please make that call!

Amana Rader Range November 22nd, 2012 | 8:10pm

Oh, those were good ones! How could I forget the bail bondsman and the RSOs. Even poor NK. And the many, many, many part 2s INCLUDING slavery. And her major breakthrough in the WM3 case. Yeah right. And the big fat lie that she waddled down to Louisa County to do research. Ha! Never even bothered to come "on location" to cville, but wrote about elevations and relative distances, etc., without any firsthand knowledge. Lazy bones.

But yes, Rader. Let's hope his plea does the trick, and that some kind person knows something and will cough it up. Any clue. No matter how small. Anything that a person with some small knowledge of that evening, even if they're not even sure it would help, might help. So I hope they'll phone it in. Maybe a few small clues will add up.

Another impartial observer November 24th, 2012 | 10:14am

@Michael Sutton: Was the comment above (11/22; 5:10pm) in reference to the infamous blogger who "...Introduced all to Observer..." intended to imply that "Observer" was somehow affilitated with the blogger, or was merely a ficticious contributor created by the blogger herself?

If that was your intended implication, with respect I ask that you please stand corrected. (The same may be said for "Skyler", who was in no way affilitated with the blogger and who is indeed a real person who has suffered a brain injury.)

I'm unable to comment on the other individual you mentioned ("Clarity") as I have no knowledge of that contributor.

Just wanting to set the record straight in the event there is any lingering confusion.

michael sutton November 24th, 2012 | 11:56am

Nope they were real people. The "observer" posted here too! She was real,. Skyler was real, she posted here too. When observer posted here, someone asked her after looking at the time stamps,if she was on the clock at UVA. She must have been, maybe not.

That was not me, I did think of that one day when KJ posted and I asked him the same question, was he on the V-Tech clock? I thought it was a good fair question. I mean V-tech may have authorized and if so fine. It did not cause him any harm that I can think of. There would be nothing wrong with KJ posting on breaks or lunch. Heck, Morgan was a student there. Admin would have some latitude, and maybe give a pat on the back.

UVA, now that would be a little different. They were under a PR nightmare. She said as much [ observer ]. Another poster here did have some exchanges not via the blooger nor The Hook. It lead to a quite embarassing event at the blogger's site and I do not remember her posting there after that.

There were 2 Skylars. Skyler of Skyler's rock. and another that I will not tell of whom she is. I do not think the other Skyler posted on that blooger's site.

Confusion was sure there. Tehn observer started going to the post office to pick up rocks from all over. That was started with Skyler and Dan used the words Morgan Rocks or something like that.

Ironicly over a year ago they both appeared on the Hook comment sections with ssome info to clear up other comments. Skyler retracted some of her statements, mentioned some difficulties she had. You should be able to find it.

There were more sites than FM, the notorus one and here. Several more sites.

I am not sure that that blooger post with other names, she has had a small army to do that for her, maybe she did, I am not saying so. But, for sure there were pleanty of people changing names. She got a softare upgrade, andf finally removed the site view from the public. Funny I had stated it was public for 9 months.

Clarity is a former associate of that blooger. That blooger has stated in print that she went rouge. That blooger even suggested what I emtion in an above post.

It was a mess, with Facebook [that I never went on! I did look at it without sighning on after plenty of urging from the Mods. I never sighned up to it. Didn't have to. People were cutting and pasting. Then another fringe group split from that notorus blooger. The there was, q, her old sight than a new site during FM's temp shut down. The after the perm shutdown as well.

It was easy to se who was who, was using the names here and who was acting as a team.

I do not think that Skyler or Observer were violating those rules. They even used the same names on each site. Observer was bringht, a little too loyal to UVA for me. I do not think she could be objective.

But thanks, yes their are plenty that have accused that bloogers people of being her, herself. But, hey with friends like hers' who needs enemies. Cllarity spelled it all out, it was a classic.

That blooger has a MO of going into towns and setting up shop via the web and recruiting. Give them hats and teaching the some tricks. She tried in Tennessee, I and about six other people contacted the family and LE. That one never got ogf the ground. She is despicable to barrow from the other poster above.

I have never posted on any of those 3 sites [one of the is here] using any other names than S.Jones or michael sutton, you can ask Hawes. Never!

On topix I did use some x-mas names, like santa's helper and such.

I started using my real name after someone stated that was certain person that was found dead. It cause major damage to my family, I was on a boating trip and away for several weeks when that occured. I then used my real name! And alwys do.

Good point for other, I see your concern. Yes, Skyler and observer were not that notorus blooger using different names.

You were nice to point that out!

but BACK TO THE LETTER! I have very good reason as it seems Rader does too, to think that the person he is trying to reach did see evry word rader wrote. I think they did follow the case very closely. Some of this stuff is kind of linked to the letter, due to that that person has seen the circus.

I hope that he or she resurfaces, Please! The TRUTH, no matter what it is what we need!

Amana Rader Range November 25th, 2012 | 4:14am

My favorite Skyler move was her repainting her rock to remove boc from it. Did it just before the rocks were sent to the Harringtons. Ha! De-blinkified. Awesome move.

michael sutton November 25th, 2012 | 7:43am

@ Amana Rader Range November 25th, 2012 | 3:14am

She shows up in this. I believe this to date the best wriiten or recorded information on the case. I believe this is the original Observer, note that there were others using that name before she did on Thr HOOk. In some post, she even adds the info that she was from the notorus blooger's site.

Seems and that was my point, that both had a change of opinion about that blogger. As 'Another impartial observer November 24th, 2012 | 9:14am' pointed out that I confused some. glad it was cleared up. The whole article should be read and it does at points, with rader's letter fit in to the meaning of his well wrriten letter:

Skyler has opinions that I do not agree with, ie "the friends" but her message is clear to me.

"I stopped posting publically because I began to doubt certain information being brought forth as "inside info" or "I know the truth of this," -- then when I learned that certain information was absolutely a bold-face lie I felt betrayed -- but also enlightened .................(much more)..........

I believ in the comments observer is the same, Her comments are very well written as always.

If you overlay Rader's letter upon this article it seems as there is a specific target, and no it is NOT the BB Players at all!
Come on, please contact someone and get this of your chest, maybe try America's Most Wanted. that would be astart and they seem to respect privacy.

Please!

"So there is no confusion for you, I will be very blunt- YOU are not the same person you were in October 2009, because you hold the TRUTH of what happened to Morgan that October night and it has consumed your conscience every day. You see, you have important information from that night! It is time for YOU to DO THE RIGHT THING and free the burden of your conscience with the information you have. It is time for YOU to stand up in the name of humanity and justice. It is time for YOU to show that you have a sympathetic and dignified place in your heart so heavily troubled, regardless of your involvement in the circumstances leading to Morgan’s death."
Copied from Joe Rader's letter

All Depends November 25th, 2012 | 3:12pm

If it's just someone who gave her a ride from point A to point B, I don't know if withholding that fact would change that person or give them cause to feel guilty. And I'm not sure such a person exists....or that anyone else exists that *knows* or even has a hunch who did it. I think that's why despite the gigundo reward ($150k plus), familial DNA, a major FBI campaign featuring a new sketch, billboards up and down the Eastern seaboard, a dedicated website, and godnoze a ton of publicity as she's had over the last 3 years INCLUDING not one but two mentions on America's most wanted, a whole Investigation Discovery tv show, and lord knows what else that most victims don't warrant. That's cool. Keeping her case in the news is good. Just hasn't done a thing to solve it. Which is why this will also probably fail.

Bottom line seems to be...no one knows who did this. Some loner bad guy. Very, very hard to solve, despite armchair dummies who proclaim it solvable or easily solvable. If true, the dummy would pony up a clue and collect the big bucks. All talk. No action.

Tega November 25th, 2012 | 6:16pm

Having followed this story only on and off, I wonder: did the forensic analysis indicate murder? How did they determine so?

I'm not doubting that she was killed. I'm just asking for help sorting through the noise.

Seeking Veritas - not the winery November 25th, 2012 | 7:00pm

Excellent question, Tega.

LE ruled Morgan's death a homicide. The COD has not yet been released.

As pointed out by another poster ,FBI does now use the word murder.
Perhaps it is or maybe not important that Rader does not use the term. More, the word was never used while he was incharge.

It is strange that no COD has been released after they started to use that word.

I don't think there was a murder. Now, if you look down the road as Rader did, proving it in court will be hard. There is so much out there by the PR that will make it hard for any one from the STATE to present a case that lives up to has been provided by the PR firm.

See, that is what is mind blowing. Rader knows this. To make some people go with a 12 -0 guilty verdict it will now take a very violent rape, a sadistic murderer and it was suggested a hunting game with guns.

This is so sad, maybe they catch someone, and they go free. After these events post event, who ever they charge will have a very good lawyer and without a confesssion will have a very good chance of a not -guilty.

Rader, was right, is right and his letter was written knowing that!

Tega November 25th, 2012 | 7:47pm

But Morgan's parents have indicated their belief (from whatever evidence explained to them, as understandable respect to victims) that is was a murder, right?

"However, her parents, both medical professionals, say signs of violence were obvious on their daughter's remains, which were released from evidence and returned to them in February.
"He chooses to kill in a savage and brutal way," says Gil Harrington, an oncology nurse, of her daughter's killer, "to break her bones before he murdered her." Dan Harrington, a psychiatrist, confirms that his daughter's skeleton showed "brutal damage."

If that is founded and accurate, all of the speculations that this was an overdose and the like should stop, and the plea for some not-quite innocent but not murderous participant should be squelched.

Grumpy November 25th, 2012 | 7:49pm

I find this part in your link interesting, Veritas:

"Intent can often be difficult to prove, especially if there is little in the way of direct evidence. Most law enforcement officers are taught to assume intent until it can be proven otherwise during the course of an investigation. If there is even a slight possibility of intent (i.e. murder), the police will investigate it. Criminal negligence is a little bit easier to prove since it usually involves carelessness or the consumption of a controlled substance. "

This may be a tough case to prosecute.

On another note, I find it suspicious that only Scott Leamon of WSLS was notified by VSP that Joe Rader was not involved in the investigation. Did any other news sources receive this info? I think Leamon may be pulling our legs. Joe was obviously involved in some way from the start, and it still haunts him, poor guy.

Tega, as a small-town psychiatrist and an oncology nurse, how many murdered victims do you suppose they had actually seen? Even in training, I doubt they had seen many bones shattered at the hands of another. As a parent, I might also jump to conclusions and believe she was murdered and shattered and everything else--her life was taken away, period, and that is brutal to a parent. But the COD may say something else entirely. I'm hoping for a flat out confession. That may be the only thing that puts this guy away for Morgan's homicide, or murder.

Tega November 25th, 2012 | 8:24pm

Well, I suppose that 1) the Harringtons were relaying what they were told about a brutal, violent cause of death; and/or 2) that they saw multiple broken bones when preparing her for burial; or 3) made some wild inferences from what they thought they knew and saw.

Grumpy November 25th, 2012 | 8:31pm

Right tega, it remains to be seen. I sure hope there is some conclusion to this. Even if I am not owed an explaination, I sure hope to find out what the heck happened. This as become the weirdest, wildest story all the way around.

michael sutton November 25th, 2012 | 8:32pm

@Tega: It is also very possible that an off the road vehicle or some type of farm equipment ran over the body long after the death. Yes, the scientist may be able to decide if it was before or after. The parents went on record as to what you state long before the scientist had a chance to definately come to a conclusion.
Would the PR let them recant? Was she hunted, killed like the Kennedys as she mentioned?

@Grumpy: I am with you on the WSLS thing. It is mind blowing to think a real officer sent that. If not maybe someone used some software to make it look that it is were it came from. Maybe an officer that was booted from the case, slipped behind a desk and sent it out.

I have no idea, hope VSP looked into it. If it is the reporter, hope he gets booted, if not, he should clear it up as to where it came from.

whats your line November 25th, 2012 | 8:35pm

veracity;s words and caps and style ,fit in with rader's letter , and veracity was very verbal about lt rader and who was lead investigator,and who was investigating this case .sure knew alot , heavy heart.look at some of veracity's early posts..

All Depends November 25th, 2012 | 8:38pm

It would be telling to know which bones were broken, if any. The relatively more easily broken fingers, jaw, cheek,mribs? Or harder to break (I imagine) arms or legs?

I agree with those who say that short of a confession -- or if he used a murder weapon and still has it -- it will not be easy to convict the bad guy. He might get some small sentence for Fairfax, but I imagine he'll just walk on this one. DNA at the scene is great, but using it to prove that he caused her death will likely be mighty hard.

Tega November 25th, 2012 | 8:48pm

"DNA at the scene is great"

But was there DNA at the body disposal site? Or recovered from the T-shirt dump? Or both? Or somewhere else?

The VSP has left everyone guessing. That's fine, I suppose, as a means to protect potential future prosecution. But it isn't necessarily the only way to get a repeat bad guy off the streets.

All Depends November 25th, 2012 | 8:50pm

I imagine Rader's old homies were miffed by his letter. Not only did he not have the decency to give them a heads up, much less ask permission, but the letter sort of stuck a finger in their eye. It's an indictment of their lack of progress in the case. He may as well have written, "Listen, I can't just sit idly by and watch these losers fail to solve this case. Even though I'm retired, I feel I can be more effective than this full time crew. Watch and learn, people."

And since the letter said that the cops may have missed an important tip, I guess VSP felt it important to point out that he was not an active investigator on the case, and thus was not speaking with firsthand knowledge of anything being missed.

All Depends November 25th, 2012 | 8:56pm

Tega, good question on the location of the dna. I assume it was found with the remains, because the timing works out better in terms of when they found the dna match with Fairfax. Also, the police don't seem to make too much of the t-shirt -- don't seem to find it integral -- so it probably did not have bad guy dna on it. Probably better if the dna were at the farm anyway. DNA on the shirt alone would be far easier to explain away.

michael sutton November 25th, 2012 | 8:59pm

Tega November 25th, 2012 | 7:48pm
Very good points, very good.

Add this, they has at least one match. Thus easy to release the sketch [too bad not after they had awhile to work it] but, who ist say there is not more DNA from other people.

If the DNA was on the shirt, then their is a good chance there is more than 2 people. Victim and the man in the drawing, but wouldn't there be a likelyhood that if it was handeled and displayed that other DNA would be there?

ALso, if it only at the farm where the match came from, how about animals and others that might have seen he that night. I mean the concert was very crowded, hair, dandruf, all types of possibilities.

It would be hard for there to only be those 2 DNA natches, unless the shirt was cleaned, then expose to only yhe man in the drawing. Very intersting, but Rader knows those things and he wrote the letter this month.

I think that speaks volumes. Maybe a 3rd DNA marker not matched yet?

All Depends November 25th, 2012 | 9:11pm

No way they'd sit quietly on a 2nd dna sample they felt was implicated. Not after all the other lengths they've gone to -- bill boards and all that, seeking just one person. I mean....right?

michael sutton November 25th, 2012 | 9:39pm

If there was no match, well would they? They are sitting on official COD, right?

Seems Rader is sekking someone that is not a murder to lead him to last person that was with her.

All Depends: I guess it is where the DNA came from: hair, fluids or other the body, the area on the farm or the t-shirt. Ever think about the purse, umbrella, etc?

Maybe hard to believe but what is on the billboards is all info shared with the family. VSP and FBI have no duty to report highly specific information to the family. Maybe they fear tthat they will release the info and damage their investigation.

Like your call, All Depends!

All Depends November 25th, 2012 | 10:36pm

There may be no known COD. Wouldn't surprise me.

I do feel they'd at least hint that there were others thought to be involved. But they never do.

No way dna was from the purse or the other items she dropped. Well, at least I do not tend to believe she was blitzed in the parking lot, but rather was out of it and lost her stuff, then hitched a ride. Her purse showed no signs of a struggle. Witnesses saw her dropping it repeatedly. She was acting irrationally. Definitely hitch hiked. Seems straightforward enough.

DNA under the nails would be harder for the bad guy to explain away, but not impossible.

michael sutton November 25th, 2012 | 11:09pm

All Depends November 25th, 2012 | 9:36pm

All good points and logic says your right. Just pointing out that there should be more DNA unless it cleaned [the shirt].

Thee body and area, insects and the elements would seem to cause a lot of problems.

But, rader's letter is written my a man that knows these things. No matter how he pen's the letter. He would not distract from the facts. He may not reveal any either.

I checked on COD after about six moutns from the fiding of the body, it was "undetermained" at that time.

All Depends November 26th, 2012 | 7:23am

Yeah, her remains were pretty badly decomposed. Unless there was something obvious or a weapon left at the scene, they may never know how she expired. Which is why it's still probably a possibility that she died of exposure or an overdose. Homicide could just mean that someone obviously helped get her to that strange place -- she didn't walk those 9 miles, and didn't drive her own car there. So there was another person involved. I mean, if they had found her near the train tracks under the bridge with undetermined COD, they might call it suspicious or they might say there was no evidence of foul play -- but they wouldn't attach homicide to it as manner of death (I don't think) because you wouldn't HAVE to have another person involved because she could have gotten there on her own.

All Depends November 26th, 2012 | 8:39am

The shirt remains a mystery. As do the police, I tend to think there will be a reasonable explanation as to how it got there and why (I'm leaning towards some innocent person hanging it there trying to reunite it with its owner). But who knows; maybe there's more to it. I do hope one day we get to learn about all the evidence and clues. I guess we need an arrest and a trial.

michael sutton November 26th, 2012 | 10:42am

"and why (I'm leaning towards some innocent person hanging it there trying to reunite it with its owner)"

This is why I think that there must be more than 2 DNA samples. If it was the t-shirt or both [T-shirt and body] then there would be multiple samples. The person that handles it [one or more] sketch and Morgan. It is true that one of the girls did positively ID that it was the her
t-shirt. So, there COULD be only one source of DNA, the resting area. Maybe the timing of the t-shirt and propsed DNA testing time-line are just a fluke. I don't think so!

Now take the letter wriiten over 24 months later, by a man that knows the above answers. Either there is a 3rd or 4th sample left from someone or Rader is depending on a tip or tips. Maybe he has both. But from the letter, and what Dino said in Court's other srticle than there is a 3rd person [at least a 3rd maybe more]. Even if it were a innocent person, wouldn't that DNA be there?

If it were a hunting weapon or any tool,I believe there would have been some search warrants issued for some people in the past. See the things that Rader knows now or just prior to his stepping down must have influenced the letter. He would not go out there on a limb.

One must keep in mind:
a] the t-shirt was displayed before the public [any innocent person] could not have possible
known that she was dead. That is huge.
b] due to the investigation of the East Coast Rapist and the overlap with Fairfax, Rader had ton's of resources. FBI and 2 to 3 other states.

Here is an update on that, remember the FBI putting up flyers at bike shops BEFORE the body was found.

I'm drawing a blank. What did Dino say that suggested there was a third person besides Morgan and the bad guy? Or is it just the speculated-upon ride?

michael sutton November 27th, 2012 | 4:14am

Message was almost the same as Rader's. As said, he addressed someone to call. Now, NO way would he be saying "come on guy, you alluded police for 7 years. So come on I am a good guy give me a ringy dingy". It is very valid as to this letter by Rader.

Court was there, he was definately reaching out to someoone that had information, not a murderer.

That's why the Scott guy at WSLS's little post is so absurd. Rader was incharge, Dino and FBI reported all details to Rader. But read Court's article again. Many focus on the Father and Daughter on the bridge, and that is good, But the whole article shows a peak at the details the team has gone on.Seems Rader and Dino were on the exact same page. I know the FBI in my home said as much!

Rader mentioned to me every time, that it was a team! That was acknowledged by the FBI and detectives.

All Depends November 27th, 2012 | 7:00am

Ok, thanks. That rings a bell. I probably discounted it because I don't tend to think there's a third party, nor do I think the person necessarily has a tie to AF or the area. Hopefully we'll find out before too long and learn what happened that night, as sad as it will be. Or I guess we'll at least hear the full police theory once the guy is apprehended. The perp himself may never talk if he thinks he can skate on the charges.

michael sutton November 27th, 2012 | 9:07am

@All Depends November 27th, 2012 | 6:00am

I too, am not on board with the type of tie to the Farm as many including LE and DIno. I have friends that are profilers, I assure they as good as it gets. Even these 2 people will tell you that their percentage of 'hitting it out of the ball park' is at best the average of a good player.

There are other reasons that one could pull it off, perhaps someone that is a hunter, naturalist, hiker, seasonal worker, employeee of the industries in all parts of our country.
These people can adapt on the fly to any area. I think the rape in Fairfax and that case may very well be a easy case to get a guilty verdict.

I did look at Courts article again today. Sorry that I said Dino's address to the person with information is not in there.
I can find it, if you like. Courteny heard the same words as I did.

Perhaps a major complication would be if the sketch man COPS a deal on Fairfax that he would delivery the person that was last with Morgan. I cannot see The State offering anything to sketch. The point is we may never know the entire truth.

I wish the family would truely understand that a trial is going to be unfair to them. Every word ever wriiten by them will be displayed. I am sure they are up to that task, but if they would just explain now that some of what they wrote or said was not vased on facts. I think all could understand a mother trying to grasp this horrible event.

Just do not give a defense Lawyer any more weapons. I truely wish for 12 people to find THE RIGHT person guity and remove them from society.

As stated 2 and a half years ago by me, answering a question on FM to all posters what is your goal, mine was written- FIND THE TRUTH! Most stated death, life in prision was not expressed. Most were of revenge, I was the only of about 50 people that said "THE TRUTH". Perhaps that was brought the person to me with the tip. Perhaps Rader knows that. I am here, I am not ever going away. If that person wants to come foward just call the numbers of those agencies Rader listed.

I will tell the truth and that is all Rader asks for.

Just do it!

From Rader's letter.

"I know YOU have a conscience because you consider these things and it makes you nauseated!"

michael sutton November 27th, 2012 | 3:54pm

***** "Call someone that you feel comfortable will talk to you and the police to understand what happened that night with Morgan Harrington! Do THE RIGHT THING now!"
'Joe Rader
Retired Lieutenant, Virginia State Police'*****

All Depends November 28th, 2012 | 7:28am

Do you think Rader is talking to a man or to a woman? Or both/either? I suppose the answer is either. I think most people think he's talking to a woman -- girlfriend/wife/mom of the bad guy. I picture him talking to a guy -- someone she partied with or who took her somewhere to get drugs. I hope there's someone out there that actually does know or suspect something. My fear is that this guy acted alone, was the one who picked her up hitch hiking, and is one of those quiet types from out of the area whom no one would suspect or even bother to think about. Obviously not from a family of Virginia felons (or at least violent felons, or whoever has to cough up dna). Who is this guy? Does he even remember that he did this?

All Depends November 29th, 2012 | 12:03am

How long until we see action in the civil suit? It was transferred to Charlottesville on November 5 after RMC objected to the Roanoke venue. When will the new judge rule on the other pleadings that RMC filed? Anyone know if there's some sort of timeline or rule of thumb?