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It's from a post where I asked you what was/was not acceptable in terms of ogling.

You had already indicated that standing and ogling was not acceptable and I asked:

Quote:

What is acceptable ?

If I stop to stare, is that still acceptable ?

If I slow down to stare is that acceptable ?

If I maintain speed but change course, is that acceptable ?

If I maintan speed and course but turn around to continue staring once I've passed, is that acceptable ?

and you said:

Quote:

Amending one's path is probably rude, if it could be demonstrated - difficult to do though. Obviously amending one's intended course of action in order to enable continued ogling is the line. Simply turning one's head and looking is not crossing that line.

Which to me indicates my final bullet point was the limit of acceptable behaviour - walking past staring at her boobs the whole time and turning your head to keep looking at her boobs once you've passed - but the others were not.

I never claimed it was part of the original anecdote (and if you find me saying that you'll get a cookie and an apology from me), but I was trying to find out what you considered acceptable.

It's from a post where I asked you what was/was not acceptable in terms of ogling.

You had already indicated that standing and ogling was not acceptable and I asked:

and you said:

Which to me indicates my final bullet point was the limit of acceptable behaviour - walking past staring at her boobs the whole time and turning your head to keep looking at her boobs once you've passed - but the others were not.

I never claimed it was part of the original anecdote (and if you find me saying that you'll get a cookie and an apology from me), but I was trying to find out what you considered acceptable.

Apologies. I am unreasonably riled at the moment.

Yes, turning and looking allowed. Stopping, not allowed. Going back and pulling out phone to take photos, not allowed.

That puts all the burden on the woman. "How dare you allow yourself to be sexually assaulted, you should have told him to stop !".

Maybe she didn't feel able to tell him to stop because he was in a position of authority and he feared the consequences. Certainly there have been times in the past where I haven't criticised a boss' behaviour to their face because I didn't want to make an enemy of someone with direct influence over my career and prospects. Add layers of being physically intimidated as well and it becomes even more difficult.

How about if we men don't "kiss, grope or expose ourselves" ?

The burden is on the woman. Hell, if men didn't initiate an encounter, I think our species would have died out.

What if they're not in a position of authority in relation to the woman? It seems as if many of these men weren't.

I've had women come on to me by kissing and groping and even exposing themselves to me. I never once felt assaulted. I've also came on to many women. I wasn't always Mr. Smooth and I have been rebuffed. And I am sorry, many women send mixed signals teasing and rebuffing because they like the power and control their sexuality gives them.

Women don't want to be asked, they want us men just to know. Well I'm sorry, we're not mind readers especially when women play these games that they KNOW they play.

All of a sudden an unwanted advance becomes sexual assault? Men have a responsibility to stop when they are told 'no', but I'm sorry, it takes two to Tango. Women have a responsibility to be clear and say yes or no, not yes, no, maybe. I love women and I respect women, but this can't just be about men and their bad behavior. It's also about women. Women have to have a conversation with each other and about their responsibility.

__________________“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

"Two young women (late teens early 20's) were sitting on a footpath bench, chatting. Both were wearing, shall we say, very revealing tops with a neckline that plunged almost to their belly buttons. A man (white male in his 40's as it happens) walks past, looks down at them and gets an eye-full. As he walks away, one of the women stands up and yells something like..."

You've added a bit. Why do people keep adding bits?

Why not it is all thought experiment? when does his staring at them become a something that they are allowed to respond to?

The burden is on the woman. Hell, if men didn't initiate an encounter, I think our species would have died out.

What if they're not in a position of authority in relation to the woman? It seems as if many of these men weren't.

I've had women come on to me by kissing and groping and even exposing themselves to me. I never once felt assaulted. I've also came on to many women. I wasn't always Mr. Smooth and I have been rebuffed. And I am sorry, many women send mixed signals teasing and rebuffing because they like the power and control their sexuality gives them.

Women don't want to be asked, they want us men just to know. Well I'm sorry, we're not mind readers especially when women play these games that they KNOW they play.

All of a sudden an unwanted advance becomes sexual assault? Men have a responsibility to stop when they are told 'no', but I'm sorry, it takes two to Tango. Women have a responsibility to be clear and say yes or no, not yes, no, maybe. I love women and I respect women, but this can't just be about men and their bad behavior. It's also about women. Women have to have a conversation with each other and their responsibility.

I don't know, but perhaps that 40-year old might pause next time he's tempted to "ogle". I think it highlights the difference in attitude between the man in the anecdote and me. He assumed that those young ladies were dressed in that way in order to have 40-year old men ogle them - I wouldn't have made that assumption because:

They were dressed that way please themselves, not me

Even if they were attempting to attract "ogling" attention, then it wouldn't be from the likes of me

Again I think it comes down to the fact that many (most ?) men presume consent until it's denied (and in the case of the anecdote will even then question the denial) whereas I've always presumed "no consent" until it is supplied.

Which is not to say I wouldn't have ogled - I don't know if I would or wouldn't - but I would have been suitably ashamed if I'd been called on it rather than telling the young women that in effect "they were asking for it"

I think the appropriate response has to be, "ma'am, what I do with my eyes in public is none of your business. I look to please myself, not you."

When I was in my early thirties I was introduced, at a pub, to a very attractive girl around 18 years of age. She was too young for me but we chatted a lot during the evening / night and got on well. The next day I heard this girl had been talking about me. "What did she say?" I asked. The reply was, "She wanted to know why nobody had told her you were gay." "She wanted to... sorry, what?" "Well, you were with her for hours and you never once came onto her!... BTW, are you gay?"

When I was in my early thirties I was introduced, at a pub, to a very attractive girl around 18 years of age. She was too young for me but we chatted a lot during the evening / night and got on well. The next day I heard this girl had been talking about me. "What did she say?" I asked. The reply was, "She wanted to know why nobody had told her you were gay." "She wanted to... sorry, what?" "Well, you were with her for hours and you never once came onto her!... BTW, are you gay?"

This is why this is all so complicated.

And BTW, she may have not been actually interested in taking it further and having sex or some kind of romantic encounter. Women will often send out subtle sexual signals to men not because they are interested in sex, but because they want to feel desirable. And when you didn't come on to her she had to explain away her inability to get a man to respond, she explained it by you being gay. You're not a latent homosexual are you?

__________________“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

And BTW, she may have not been actually interested in taking it further and having sex or some kind of romantic encounter. Women will often send out subtle sexual signals to men not because they are interested in sex, but because they want to feel desirable. And when you didn't come on to her she had to explain away her inability to get a man to respond, she explained it by you being gay. You're not a latent homosexual are you?

Or they just get so used to creepy guys that when one isn't creepy it strikes them as odd. Nothing in that indicates that she wanted him to come on to her, just that she expected it if he was straight.

Or they just get so used to creepy guys that when one isn't creepy it strikes them as odd. Nothing in that indicates that she wanted him to come on to her, just that she expected it if he was straight.

The burden is on the woman. Hell, if men didn't initiate an encounter, I think our species would have died out.

THIS!

Originally Posted by acbytesla

... many women send mixed signals teasing and rebuffing because they like the power and control their sexuality gives them

This again. Sometimes such women are referred to as "cock-teasers".

The problem for us men is, as someone pointed out earlier, the human race has not yet evolved to the point where we are telepaths, so how are we supposed to know how to interpret the (sometimes intentionally) mixed signals that women throw out?

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Women don't want to be asked, they want us men just to know. Well I'm sorry, we're not mind readers especially when women play these games that they KNOW they play.

All of a sudden an unwanted advance becomes sexual assault? Men have a responsibility to stop when they are told 'no', but I'm sorry, it takes two to Tango. Women have a responsibility to be clear and say yes or no, not yes, no, maybe. I love women and I respect women, but this can't just be about men and their bad behavior. It's also about women. Women have to have a conversation with each other and about their responsibility.

100% in agreement with this

__________________As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920

The problem for us men is, as someone pointed out earlier, the human race has not yet evolved to the point where we are telepaths, so how are we supposed to know how to interpret the (sometimes intentionally) mixed signals that women throw out?

100% in agreement with this

You are wrong. The solution is men lose the ability to initiate for the foreseeable future. When we have proven we can handle the responsibility we get it back. Until then, you have to deal with it.

Or they just get so used to creepy guys that when one isn't creepy it strikes them as odd. Nothing in that indicates that she wanted him to come on to her, just that she expected it if he was straight.

That too. But don't kid yourself. Everyone wants to feel desirable to the opposite sex. And if you did everything you could to make yourself look attractive and the guys all treated you like a sibling as opposed to a potential paramour doubts about yourself might creep in.

__________________“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

All this reminds me of an incident that happened right outside my shop one sunny afternoon.

Two young women (late teens early 20's) were sitting on a footpath bench, chatting. Both were wearing, shall we say, very revealing tops with a neckline that plunged almost to their belly buttons. A man (white male in his 40's as it happens) walks past, looks down at them and gets an eye-full. As he walks away, one of the women stands up and yells something like...

"What are you *********** gawking at, pervert!" The guy stopped in his tracks, turned around and walked right back to her, looking straight down her cleavage. "Only looking at what you're asking me to Honey! If you don't like men looking down your blouse, wear a *********** polo-neck!" She was stunned - he turned and walked away.

Its a sentiment I found difficult to agree disagree with.

Lets switch it a bit.

Two young men (late teens early 20's) were sitting on a footpath bench, chatting. Both were wearing, shirts that were open almost to their belly buttons. A man (white male in his 40's as it happens) walks past, looks down at them and gets an eye-full. As he walks away, one of the men stands up and ...

Makes some not entirely friendly nor PC comments about his supposed gender preferences and sexual proclivities before queer-bashing him.

Two young men (late teens early 20's) were sitting on a footpath bench, chatting. Both were wearing, shirts that were open almost to their belly buttons. A man (white male in his 40's as it happens) walks past, looks down at them and gets an eye-full. As he walks away, one of the men stands up and ...

Makes some not entirely friendly nor PC comments about his supposed gender preferences and sexual proclivities before queer-bashing him.

I'm not sure what your point is. The analogy doesn't really work. The problem isn't with the looker. If you're going to wear clothes that are provocative you can expect people to look, even ogle.

__________________“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

That puts all the burden on the woman. "How dare you allow yourself to be sexually assaulted, you should have told him to stop !".

Maybe she didn't feel able to tell him to stop because he was in a position of authority and he feared the consequences. Certainly there have been times in the past where I haven't criticised a boss' behaviour to their face because I didn't want to make an enemy of someone with direct influence over my career and prospects. Add layers of being physically intimidated as well and it becomes even more difficult.

How about if we men don't "kiss, grope or expose ourselves" ?

I believe this is exactly the fear being discussed. What do you mean by "not kiss"? Should we always ask first? Sign a form?

We could start talking like Eugene from Walking Dead: "I do believe that at this juncture my hormones are imbalanced in such a manner that I am being drawn uncontrollably toward a physical confrontation that includes, but may not be limited to, the light touch of our lips, but I want to impress upon you in no uncertain manner that you have the option to thwart my advances - I only wish you to know that I am in no way attempting this in a threatening manner but only because I think that tight dress makes your ass look particularly delectable. Am I allowed to say that?"

Some scary attitudes across the boards these days regarding how we interact with each other. It's double-plus bad. It's badong actually. Maybe worse.

I believe this is exactly the fear being discussed. What do you mean by "not kiss"? Should we always ask first? Sign a form?

We could start talking like Eugene from Walking Dead: "I do believe that at this juncture my hormones are imbalanced in such a manner that I am being drawn uncontrollably toward a physical confrontation that includes, but may not be limited to, the light touch of our lips, but I want to impress upon you in no uncertain manner that you have the option to thwart my advances - I only wish you to know that I am in no way attempting this in a threatening manner but only because I think that tight dress makes your ass look particularly delectable. Am I allowed to say that?"

Some scary attitudes across the boards these days regarding how we interact with each other. It's double-plus bad. It's badong actually. Maybe worse.

... This is even a drag on your virtual life, I think most women will have been sent a picture of some guy's junk.

I wonder what SG's experience is?

Me? Nope.

But I have been sexually attacked or threatened with an attack on three different occasions: One, a stranger grabbed me as I walked home, I screamed, people came out of their houses and the guy ran off. One was a drunk jerk that I mistakenly went home with. He tried a date rape but gave up before the act. And the third, I was with a group of guys, (my fault for being ignorant and getting into that situation), who serioulsy talked about a gang rape but they never went through with it.

I was hired once as a waitress and fired as soon as I refused to date the boss.

I've been groped in a crowd a couple times.

I can't recall any other #metoo experiences offhand.

Edited to add: Oh dear, 9 pages, tl;dr.

__________________Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

And BTW, she may have not been actually interested in taking it further and having sex or some kind of romantic encounter. Women will often send out subtle sexual signals to men not because they are interested in sex, but because they want to feel desirable.

But I have been sexually attacked or threatened with an attack on three different occasions: One, a stranger grabbed me as I walked home, I screamed, people came out of their houses and the guy ran off. One was a drunk jerk that I mistakenly went home with. He tried a date rape but gave up before the act. And the third, I was with a group of guys, (my fault for being ignorant and getting into that situation), who serioulsy talked about a gang rape but they never went through with it.

I was hired once as a waitress and fired as soon as I refused to date the boss.

I've been groped in a crowd a couple times.

I can't recall any other #metoo experiences offhand.
.

So only a half dozen or so.....

__________________"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets

Three that I really felt threatened; the gropes I thought, 'how can that turn any guy on'; and the waitress job, given what's come out since and how naive I was at that time (still in my teens), I'm glad I turned him down since he surely wanted sex, not a legit date.

I refer people again to my position in the elevatorgate discussions as it applies here and I don't want to type all that over again.

As for asking permission to kiss, "May I kiss you" really turns me on, if I'm attracted to the guy that is. It's quite sexy. Of course it only works on the first kiss.

__________________Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Three that I really felt threatened; the gropes I thought, 'how can that turn any guy on'; and the waitress job, given what's come out since and how naive I was at that time (still in my teens), I'm glad I turned him down since he surely wanted sex, not a legit date.

I refer people again to my position in the elevatorgate discussions as it applies here and I don't want to type all that over again.

As for asking permission to kiss, "May I kiss you" really turns me on, if I'm attracted to the guy that is. It's quite sexy. Of course it only works on the first kiss.

That's great Ginger. But my experience is your view has been the minority. I have asked women what they think about a man asking that exact same question and have been told that it would be a turnoff. That it demonstrates a lack of confidence and nothing is a bigger turnoff for them.

__________________“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

That's great Ginger. But my experience is your view has been the minority. I have asked women what they think about a man asking that exact same question and have been told that it would be a turnoff. That it demonstrates a lack of confidence and nothing is a bigger turnoff for them.

But men are supposed to be mind readers and know which women want to be asked and which just want the man to go for it. If you just go for it and it turns out she liked it, then you are fine. If you ask and she just wanted you to go for it, then you are weak or not confident enough. If you just go for it and she wanted you to ask first, then you risk being accused of assault.

Point 1. Most humans, outside of those that argue about stuff on the internet as a substitution for real human interactions like... well us, are not emotionless autistic introverted robots that are going to treat an escalating sexual encounter with a flow chart. Human interaction, especially in the realm of sexuality, is always going to depend at least somewhat on inference, subtle cues, body language, non-verbal communications, and the like. The idea that romantic encounters actually using explicit, spoken requests for and explicit, spoken approvals of each individual action or "level" of the physical encounter is ever going to become the norm is a ludicrous Tumblr fantasy that I feel is mostly being played up by the "lookit at me being more progressive than you" crowd. I mean people have ever had a human relationship and not just read about them online have to know that humans just don't operate that way.

Point 2. That being said I feel like Point 1 is actually not that big of deal I really don't think most people out there really have a hard time just flat out saying "No" when they don't want the sexual encounter to begin/continue and in that case all the nuance and grey area go out the window. The idea that there are people out that really "hazy" on whether or not their partner wants to have sex is a problem of any degree we have to worry about seems.... unlikely to me.

__________________"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal

When I was in my early thirties I was introduced, at a pub, to a very attractive girl around 18 years of age. She was too young for me but we chatted a lot during the evening / night and got on well. The next day I heard this girl had been talking about me. "What did she say?" I asked. The reply was, "She wanted to know why nobody had told her you were gay." "She wanted to... sorry, what?" "Well, you were with her for hours and you never once came onto her!... BTW, are you gay?"

Lol! A similar thing happened to me last summer at faire. Chatted with an 18yo for hours at the intro party. I did this because she's going to college to major in theater & I not only have an MFA in theater but I've taught at the University level & performed professionally for years. I figured she was just picking my brain but she apparently wanted more & was flirting heavily. I... I cannot see the flirty signals when they are directed at me, so I didn't see a need to explain why said flirty signals we're useless. Namely, a) while I look to be in my early thirties, I'm 45, (& older than her father... Ew...) & b) I'm happily mar... (Checks to make sure my wife didn't borrow 5 of my sweatshirts again this week) happily married to the costume designer of the faire, who knows everyone.

Saw her out & about a week or so later & she tried to fix me up with one of her gay friends. We were both confused.

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