Game10

Another issue with the Moghul position is that it is a minority (muslims) rule over the majority (hindu). This can cause some situation. The worst I got was when I ordered a cull of wildlife, I did not see any potential trouble there.

Trouble came however, the mostly muslim soldiers doing the actual slaughtering took every Hindu holy cow they could find. The Hindu was very unhappy about this, and so was I as honour and economy dropped like a stone.

Saw the "Indian Encounters" exhibition in the National Museum of Scotland last week, looking at the changing relationship between the UK and India in 18th and 19th Centuries. Quite interesting though mostly focusing on 19th Century. Also used the term "Mughal", which I hadn't come across before.

I always wonder if a challenge for India is, if you decide to go for modernisation along the Persian model, is who do you trust? The European powers you might ask for help are the same ones with outposts on your shores, can you trust them? Or should you turn to a European nation who doesn't have outposts on your borders? But if so, can you make it worth their while?

As to Stuart's question on what to do with the elephants and camels-set up a touring circus?

I see a couple of people have said who they have signed up for, so I'll be as open-Scotland

I think you can trust the European nations who have towns on your shores. The Moghul position is large with very large forces as well. It would be a huge undertaking for any European nation to try and take most of India. They would have to commit a massive force for a very long period of time. The distance and circumference of the Moghul towns is very large.

It would be a very brave and risky venture from a European power to have a go at it. They would certainly leave themselves open to attack on their own homelands and with so much potential conflict in Europe and many potential enemies within game, it would be a massive risk that could easily backfire.

Should have also pointed out on my last message about the Moghul position. If a European nation ever did take most of, or all of the Moghul towns in India. They would have to keep a massive force there to keep the peace and guard against revolts. Which could be started and supported by other Indian positions.

So all in all, I would suggest the chances of a European power wanting to try and take large parts of India would be very slim.

jamesbond007 wrote:Should have also pointed out on my last message about the Moghul position. If a European nation ever did take most of, or all of the Moghul towns in India. They would have to keep a massive force there to keep the peace and guard against revolts. Which could be started and supported by other Indian positions.

So all in all, I would suggest the chances of a European power wanting to try and take large parts of India would be very slim.

jamesbond007 wrote:Should have also pointed out on my last message about the Moghul position. If a European nation ever did take most of, or all of the Moghul towns in India. They would have to keep a massive force there to keep the peace and guard against revolts. Which could be started and supported by other Indian positions.

So all in all, I would suggest the chances of a European power wanting to try and take large parts of India would be very slim.

Tend to agree. Lots more effort than it's worth.

European powers dreaming of Indian Empire who have done well in Gloire du Roi inc:

1) Spain in G2. Philip of Anjou in his wars against Portugal & England helped himself to most or the North West Coast ports and their hinterland.

2) The UDP also in G2 which helped itself to Ceylon and the extreme South

3) Not sure which game it was in but from secondary accounts the HEIC was also played for a long time in a fairly low key manner in one game......as the English Players trusty No2. A anti English European had a go at them and got hammered not only by a very annoyed English Player but by the HEIC forces which were by that stage the size of a good sized European Army/Navy.

It should be pointed out however that non of these "Indian" positions were built up at the cost of the larger Indian states and were generally friendly to the played ones. And they were generally more interested in trade and attacking Eurepean trade rivals than in cutting inland.

They were also all pre the new rules which meant that Philip of Anjou orders did not take months to arrive.

My feeling is that under the new rules the only way a European power is going to build up in India is with a 2nd player like the HEIC, VOIC or French Colonial Gov actually based in India and playing a long game (probably with a generous home Govt and perhaps a local ally).

As for non European "Invaders" of India in Agema games I think this small but happy band numbers ONE...........to be exact me in LAK.

After making taking help from Ottoman & Russian haters (something about its location means that Hapsburgs and others are generally more than willing to send Military trainers etc to Persia.....that or its by friendly and charming manner) I then signed long trade and peace treaties with the Russians and Ottomans.

Clearly its my friendly and charming ways but the Sultan & his Grand Vizier seemed really keen to wish be God Speed and best of luck on a Jihad aimed directly away from them. They even allowed My Character & his best cavalry to visit Mecca first.

Strictly speaking this was not an invasion the family of the Great Moghul are part of the Timurid family from Central Asia and I was rideing to help a elderly relative against rebels and unbelievers and collect a bride.......the Moghul Player even played along & agreed to seal our treaty with a Royal Wedding and the Keli Noah (spelling iffy?) Diamond to bride.

No doubt at this stage some more "liberal" Moghul players are throwing up their hands in horror and muttering things like "I only killed a few Holy Cows and got hammered by Richard......what happens if you call down a Jihad". However I think its fair to point out that I stayed loyal to the Great Moghul player who was having real problems , in LAK Moghul India is a major power Persia only a medium one. Plus I was basically playing to Public Opinion in Afghanistan, Persia, Shia areas of the Ottoman Empire & the central Asian Khanates.

It was going so well The Rajput Rebels followed a feigned flight into a trap, Jat Elephants turned and ran from Persian light Artillery.....over the top of their own Army:D The Plunder was stacking up, l even had the HEIC had signed up to my Salt-petre cartel (with the Ottomans and the Swedes)

Then things went a bit pear shaped (Damn Richard....shakes fist) !! The Moghul player dropped out of LAK and a nasty bunch of Heretic Rebels kidnapped and later killed his daughter the Shahs Bride to be.

The Moghul sunk into depression at the loss of his favourite daughter which left the Persians fighting on their own (thanks Richard!). At which point Jahann Keli-Beg either had to cut and run or turn "no more mister nice guy."

In next few turns the Golden Temple got plundered and burnt to the ground (with its garrison going on the fire) along with large area's of the Punjab. And the Great Moghul died of a broken heart (or perhaps Poison.....opinions differ) and in his will he left the Moghul Empire to that dashing, heroic, son of the sons of Timur Jahann Keli-Beg. At which point the Moghul Empire rather fell to bits with some Moghuls in the South saying some very nasty things!

Sadly at that point the game also ended with about half of the Empire under the control Jahann, half in revolt and I dont think the Hindu's of the Confederation were big fans of the new Emperor either! But he did have control of the Moghul Treasury and he really was very popular in Persia, Afghanistan, the Khanates and with the New Model Mughul-Persian Army.

Had a seperate Siege Train but the actual field Army had mix of European Style Regular foot, engineers & gunners, Skirmishers & Tribal foot.... the black bands (Afghans with long Jezzails, Swords and nasty attitudes) and Cavalry. With about a 50/50 split between foot and horse in numbers.

Army had no elephants, rockets, Rubbish horde foot, or huge trains of camp followers.....think all the rubbish had deserted with only the pious, holy and brave hardcore joining the Shah (well thats what his propaganda said). Its artillery was light, very quick firing and generally mounted on military carts which could be chained to make a mobile fort or used to carry plunder/supplies. In Indian Terms it was as close as you can get to a Swedish Army...........but with a lot of Central Asian Horse Archers and with its Dragoons on Camels.

And before anyone shouts Gimick.......nothing wrong with Camels in correct terrain......plus Horses and I understand Elephants do not like the smell.

Not sure how it would do against the best European forces but if players enjoy modelling an Army to cope with a very wide spread of different foes and present the Indians, Ottomans and Russians with a interesting possible opponent I think the Armies of Nadir Shah and Ahmed Shah Darinni offer something different and interesting.

So, it has not happened with the new rules and with the old rules it looks like it mainly happened while Indian States had no players.

I think if the Moghul player gets European flintlocks and the position is played. This is where it is so difficult to take and hold.

If I was a European player and a rival was trying to take India and the above stood. I would look to the possessions of the European attacker. Could be an opportunity for gain.

Often Indian positions are unplayed or the players tend to drop early. Then i can see it is fairly easy to take. Otherwise with European weapons I believe the Moghul is a tough nut to crack and it would take a great deal to take the position, then continue to hold the position.

The Maharattas position is an interesting one. Often it does not start with a player and if it does that player seems to drop out within a couple of game years. Has anyone any experience of a good, strong Maharattan player.? It is a position I keep intending to give a try, but I only have time for 2 games and I will have that, when game 10 starts. But one day I will give it a go.

I suppose the Moghul is too dominant for Maharattan expansion. Perhaps that puts players off in the Maharattas positions.

The Moghul or any eastern position can get solid European style infantry infantry, even without European assistance but it take some time and effort.

The reason is that all infantry must be tribal unless elite, and then they need to be at least well drilled before being converted to regular.

Drill infantry, convert to elite, convert to regular foot. They should be tough and resilient enough to take on any non-European troops whatever they are armed with. Flintlocks is of course usually the best option.

Thanks for all the ideas. There is the ability to create a half decent army there. I partly have in my mind the concept of making a decent army with those ideas and then having another army with elephants and camels carrying artillery so there is no need to retire the elephants and camels.That could just be a sign that I have been playing Scramble for Empire too long and I am more interested in having fun with the army - or perhaps it might be that I am actually suited to playing a rag tag army with crazy elephants and camels.I also look forward to hearing the tales of the wild Highland warriors coming out of Scotland.

To be honest James, I've found that of just about any small position I've played-always seem to need to have to watch over my shoulder for the bigger neighbour. With Scotland,think its a case of showing England, even a warlike one, the disadvantages of occupying a hostile Scotland over the advantages of an independent friendly Scotland. But have been trying the policy out as Scotland in G6 and it seems to be working.

I know the English player in game six and he is as nice a player and person as you will find in Glory games. You won't find a player as good as him. But I hope the English player in game 10 allows you to make a good Scotland position. Good luck.

I suppose it all boils down to if the English player in game 10 wants to create a GB.

I agree that elephants are a fun unit to play around with. They will probably be effective against poorly trained tribal foot. The life expectancy of the poor elephants will not be great if the opponent have some sort of mobile artillery however.

Perhaps they can be used as road clearing crew. They are strong and can work more or less as an mobile crane, should be useful to a have a few elephants around for heavy lifting.

Hi Ardagor, from what I have read, at this time elephants were used to transport cannon to the battle field and also as the mounts for generals, it was a prestige thing. The advantage of having a general on an elephant is that they can see and be seen, but also shot at! But I am looking forward to having an elephant charge. But I do want to try some of Stuart Baileys ideas as they seem historically correct but potentially devastating.Jason - surely a couple of elite tribal infantry units at least. Drill them up, back them up with some cavalry and cannon and Newcastle could be yours. 10,000 highlanders and you could take London?

jamesbond007 wrote:Your position Jason totally relies on what the English player decides to do with or about Scotland. Hope you get a friendly player. A country builder rather than a warmonger.

I have noticed that in some games the Scotland position is or rapidly turns Jacobite. Which tends to result in bad relations with London (exception being G7 were the English player is a Jacobite and the Scots Govt is Williamite which also results in bad relations).

However in theory at the start of G10 the Govts of England, Scotland & the UDP are all made up of loyal ministers of King William who should co-operate.

Mind you in theory Bourbon, Hapsburgs and Ottoman players should co-operate as well.

Basileus wrote:Hi Ardagor, from what I have read, at this time elephants were used to transport cannon to the battle field and also as the mounts for generals, it was a prestige thing. The advantage of having a general on an elephant is that they can see and be seen, but also shot at! But I am looking forward to having an elephant charge. But I do want to try some of Stuart Baileys ideas as they seem historically correct but potentially devastating.Jason - surely a couple of elite tribal infantry units at least. Drill them up, back them up with some cavalry and cannon and Newcastle could be yours. 10,000 highlanders and you could take London?

Having your general's on elepants were they can be seen and shot at is an advantage?.............are you sure??

Have any players actually used elephants in Glory and what was the result?

I like Ardagor idea of adding work elephants to engineer units as a type of mobile crane. And since Indian artillery is normally pulled by cattle I can see the advantage of having guns pulled by elephants (Yum, Yum Elephant stew rather than Beef ..........but which up-sets the the Hindu the most?). But has anyone used them in combat with success?

My feeling is that in a age of gun powder weapons elephants are generally a liability..........but they may be effective in a Monsoon storm or against troops who use cold steel only. May be effective in Scotland?

Sorry - "May be effective in Scotland" are we still talking about elephants? You could have an underwater platoon going up and down Loch Ness with their trunks sticking out of the water so they can breath.I am happy enough to export some elephants to Scotland but do they wear plaid when they arrive?