I just sent this to Customer support. Let's see how vaguely they will respond:

Quote

Hello,

I have some questions in regards to November orders:

1 - When do you start shipping them?2 - What is the latest date you can guarantee to ship all Novembers orders by?3 - If I order tomorrow when will my order be shipped?4 - In order to better plan my purchase and be able to make an informed decision can you please tell me how many orders for November shipping have been made so far?

1 - Are you still not aware what is causing the problem?2 - If you know what is the causing the problem is it purely a hardware issue?3 - If it's a software issue are your engineers working on a new firmware that is going to fix it?

I had to play a lot (it was fun) but I have 570Ghs and my investment back.

Right on!

One could get the impression there was a statement like 'no happy customers at all'.

I'm happy for you that it worked out so nice, that you do not need to pay this f'ing -/+20% Tax like us Europeans, early delivery date, smoothly working devices and therefore reached break-even. Honestly this is great. I know there's always one in the world doing better than me, so I'm totally fine with it.If nobody would have reached break-even, situation for me would be worse for sure...so really nice!

However I'm confused that you do not care even a little about others suffering (not me). Didn't you consider further business with KnC ? How about next time it might be you punished by bad luck with delayed/messed up delivery, broken miner, delayed RMA, nobody picks up the phone, several days of exhausting email ping-pong while diff increases and other stuff reported...

And this is exactly my point.Nice it worked out! But what's next time ?

..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity

Hey for those that are bitching about ROI. Guess what. with bitcoin going up your machine has a better % of making that roi.. glee imagine that.

Actually its the opposite. Increase of bitcoin exchange rate means that more even hashing power will be sold and you will mine less BTC, and mining BTC is all the machine does and what you bought the machine for. If you wanted a dollar profit speculating on a BTC price increase, you should have bought (or held) BTC.

wake up!!! smart people use OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY to invest.. as in 0% interest rates for a year to buy a miner

don't you learn anything from Wall Street??

Yes, if anyone used btc/cash in hand to buy their miner these days that person doesn't understand time value of money, but seriously, why is this SIMPLETON mentality held in so high esteem around here? It is just dogma.

Now I can use any money made from my jupiters to run arbitrage through the exchanges if I want.. ALL AS FREE MONEY FOR A YEAR

understand now why your BTC in to BTC out doesnt work anymore?? Too many people understand that they can make profit even if the miner makes less BTC than what it was worth at time of sale...

That's right, a UNIT OF EXCHANGE. Being that bitcoin is a decreasing unit (there is a finite, and somewhat predictable, amount in exchange at any time) it makes perfect economic sense to value it against other forms of exchange as your prime calculation. The BTC purists, luckily, do not own the day. If everything MUST be valued in just one currency, then it's not going to be a small cap one.

I was unable to get in on this round, and probably won't get in on the next either. Had I done so, my calculations were a long bet on the EXCHANGE RATE of BTC vs. the dollar and/or gold. I would have won, as the other non purists are winning. When you mine gold, you are intending to exchange it for other forms of currency, or hold it for it's value against other forms of exchange. When you "mine" bitcoin, the same paradigm applies. Sure, things are and will continue to be priced in bitcoin. The more the better. Some day it is likely that many things will be primarily priced in bitcoin. But there will always be other ways of evaluating it, and they will be valid. If, as many of you claim, this is a business, the only valid metric of your success is profit. If you gain that profit via the rise in value of bitcoin against other currencies, this is not only valid, it's good FOR BITCOIN as well as for your own bottom line. It's value vs. the world's reserve currency is what makes it attractive to the wide world.

I had to play a lot (it was fun) but I have 570Ghs and my investment back.

Right on!

One could get the impression there was a statement like 'no happy customers at all'.

I'm happy for you that it worked out so nice, that you do not need to pay this f'ing -/+20% Tax like us Europeans, early delivery date, smoothly working devices and therefore reached break-even. Honestly this is great. I know there's always one in the world doing better than me, so I'm totally fine with it.If nobody would have reached break-even, situation for me would be worse for sure...so really nice!

However I'm confused that you do not care even a little about others suffering (not me). Didn't you consider further business with KnC ? How about next time it might be you punished by bad luck with delayed/messed up delivery, broken miner, delayed RMA, nobody picks up the phone, several days of exhausting email ping-pong while diff increases and other stuff reported...

And this is exactly my point.Nice it worked out! But what's next time ?

Are you guys kidding?I was contemplating a November Jupiter...and went thru the numbers, and made all the predictions in my usual way, and I came to the conclusion, that a November Jupiter is definitely worth it, and spent the 17.6 BTC, of my 27BTC I made in the first 20 days, to order it moments ago....And I'm stoked about it... Think about it...The November units may even deliver before HF & CT get their act together!

...and if I had enough for another Jupiter right now...I'd get another... I have enough BTC for another Saturn, but they are gone, and not many Jupiters left...

Speaking of karma, did you get arrested yet for the terrahash scamming? You must have had a long day the day you deleted your entire posting history off this website and pretending you sold your user account

Oy vey.

By tone, I think I like Bargraphics better, but by content alone both of you prefer fighting to any possible solution.

Avenger, I get the impression that if someone handed you a bar of gold with no strings attached and no expectation of return, you'd find a flaw, whether or not one existed. And Bar? I think you'd say they gave you two.

That being said, my overall impression is that KnC has delivered better than any other company in this arena on everything except customer service. In that department, they appear to be sorely lacking, and it definitely needs addressed. This, despite some glaring positive examples, is unfortunately common in the high tech field. Geeks are not people persons for the most part, and people persons are not generally engineers. Finding that balance is awfully difficult. I think they will learn from this, and probably get better.

On that note, I severely disagree with Bitcoinorama, and that doesn't happen often. I like the guy. I tipped him even though I had no skin in the game just because I thought he earned it. But frankly, having personable customer service/pr people who have ZERO knowledge of the product would solve a lot of problems for this company. They could be a buffer between the customers and the engineering staff, get the appropriate answers within a reasonable time frame, and keep the customers calm and engaged. Waiting isn't so bad when you know why. Silence is not golden in customer service, ever. I don't think the people at KnC understand that. It's better to say nothing IN WORDS than to be silent. "I have no information right now" vs ".......".

Avenger, I think you would agree with me on that would you not? Had they been talking to you, delays nothwithstanding, you would not be so angry?

I've been a computer nut for a really long time. To put it in some perspective for those of you who either know history or are old farts like me, my first computer was a 2 year old IMSAI Altair. In all that time, I have seen more companies deliver late than on time, and maybe ten ever ahead of schedule on any new technology or even incremental iterations of technology. Delivering late was never that big of a problem, but silence has sunk several companies. Granted, in this subset of the industry, BFL set the bar so low you can be anything short of a straight up scam and look good by comparison, but I thought KnC would have done far worse than they actually did. And I still would have bet on them ahead of their competition. The only ones I was completely wrong about, both a positive and a negative example, were Bitfury and Terrahash. I thought the former would not deliver as promised and the latter would. KnC did better than I expected, Hashfast still looks shady, and I don't think Cointerra will make their target times, though I do think they are legit. I'm on the fence with BlackArrow, given their good former history. KnC is aware that they are about to have rather serious competition, and I think that will scare them enough that they will do better on customer service, which I frankly see as their only major flaw. All of the hardware problems come about from not having a proper development cycle, which in this business they really didn't have any options on that. If they took the time to do it to perfection before shipping, Cointerra would almost certainly have beat them to market, and possibly Hashfast as well. Bitfury did, but not with 28nm, which will probably mean a lot as the others come on line.

My point is, now you're in the queue again - so doesn't this make you think twice about bad experiences and improvable things ?How can you be 100% sure everything works out so perfectly as it did with your October shipping ?

..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity

My point is, now you're in the queue again - so doesn't this make you think twice about bad experiences and improvable things ?How can you be 100% sure everything works out so perfectly as it did with your October shipping ?

ooooh... I see.uuum... I think The folks @ KNC are brilliant;... not infoulable ... but human.I have no doubt that things will be even better the second time around.Improvements are constantly being made...100%? ...I'm not. Everything is a risk...but based on what they just achieved... I'm wishing I could get more...

I had to play a lot (it was fun) but I have 570Ghs and my investment back.

Right on!

One could get the impression there was a statement like 'no happy customers at all'.

I'm happy for you that it worked out so nice, that you do not need to pay this f'ing -/+20% Tax like us Europeans, early delivery date, smoothly working devices and therefore reached break-even. Honestly this is great. I know there's always one in the world doing better than me, so I'm totally fine with it.If nobody would have reached break-even, situation for me would be worse for sure...so really nice!

However I'm confused that you do not care even a little about others suffering (not me). Didn't you consider further business with KnC ? How about next time it might be you punished by bad luck with delayed/messed up delivery, broken miner, delayed RMA, nobody picks up the phone, several days of exhausting email ping-pong while diff increases and other stuff reported...

And this is exactly my point.Nice it worked out! But what's next time ?

For what it's worth: I do care about others still suffering of not having received their miners in time or Not working. When I received my Jupiter I can remember very will the despair of a not working Jupiter (only 350 Ghs): I really lost all faith, and felt scammed again after my BFL disaster...But the sky cleared after KnC released their 0.95 FW (thanks again KnC !), and I'm hashing happily ever after. I currently have 25 Coins which gets me after 4 weeks a Breakeven in Dollars. Nice, but I realize that this is just luck caused by the price explosion of BTC. I realize as well that I will probably never break-even in BTC terms (for that I need at least 60 BTC, which will not happen). So be it...and I don't care. What I believe is that BTC will be 7000 dollar one day (just 1% of Gold's total market cap), and by then any Jupiter (also your late delivery, or subpar working device) will have produced at least 1 Coin >> Break-even in dollar terms for all of us ... and a great journey (you can tell your grandchildren some nice stories...)

I had to play a lot (it was fun) but I have 570Ghs and my investment back.

Right on!

One could get the impression there was a statement like 'no happy customers at all'.

I'm happy for you that it worked out so nice, that you do not need to pay this f'ing -/+20% Tax like us Europeans, early delivery date, smoothly working devices and therefore reached break-even. Honestly this is great. I know there's always one in the world doing better than me, so I'm totally fine with it.If nobody would have reached break-even, situation for me would be worse for sure...so really nice!

However I'm confused that you do not care even a little about others suffering (not me). Didn't you consider further business with KnC ? How about next time it might be you punished by bad luck with delayed/messed up delivery, broken miner, delayed RMA, nobody picks up the phone, several days of exhausting email ping-pong while diff increases and other stuff reported...

And this is exactly my point.Nice it worked out! But what's next time ?

So first of all. I'm from Europe.

I had troubles with them with invoices and some administration. At the beggining I had spoken on phone with Andreas, he promised me something.

When the shipment began, I had some troubles too, but I alwas had a reply for my e-mails, and when I told them about the situation 4 month before the shipping and the promise of Andreas they solved my problem asap (in one day). But it was only a promise and 4 months.

After I received my box, I had contacted them severel times by mail, I had got answer max in one day.

When I told them that is something wrong in the fpga handling (they wanted to start rma the boards, but the failure was not there) they answered back. Something like that: hey guy you have right, we are working on it.

After the first few firmware issues I didn't had to contact them cause everything worked fine.

On the other hand, there are the die 0 issues, not working DC-DC-s.

I read every post in this fu---in topic. From the 1st until now. There were a lot of bitching about rma "yep I have to pay 200$ to send back" yep yep. Guys, these are machines manufactured buy humans, always wil be problems. Rma is to solve them. You buy a machine for 7000-10000$ and you bitching on 200$? (And this machine makes money for you)

Something like kids do on the playground.

Just one question to everyone: Did you do your best to solve the problem?

I think lot of here yes, and a few no. But the few is the loudest.....

I spent 3 days and 3 nights after I received the miner to make it stable. If I should have had a faulty card I've askd for rma the day I discover it, the next day day I'v sent back with overnight shipping, I'm sure I got the new one the day after.

Delayed delivery was in the play when you ordered it. You had to take care about it. But it was not 3 or 4 months..... Sorry to write that, but in these days this is the asic business. If you have fear just don't jump in.... It's simple.

Rising difficulty.... Say thanks to Bitfury. He made his best and made it well. It was not good for us but it's an other question.

And yes, I will order from KNC some gen 2 devices. I had no problem with them. But if I got faulty miners, I'll try to do my best, if I can't solve I wil use rma.

If they late with shipping or something go wrong: It's part of the game, deal with it.

In these days mining is not money printing like avalon batch one. Marginal profit, and a lot of risk. If you lucky you earns some, if not loose some.

So I can only repeat myself, if you can't deal with risk don't jump in and sit on your money.

I know some guys will hate me when a write this, but this is my opininon about mining and asic industry.

You didn't answer my question about a full refund. I'm only going to reply to you again if you give me a full answer to that question.

Avenger, there are times when you actually make logical arguments and actually help the community. Why balance that out with troll flame requests like the above? You are the sort of customer that KNC would probably be better off without - it's not like they have a shortage of non-asshole customers lined up waiting to send their money.

You didn't answer my question about a full refund. I'm only going to reply to you again if you give me a full answer to that question.

Avenger, there are times when you actually make logical arguments and actually help the community. Why balance that out with troll flame requests like the above? You are the sort of customer that KNC would probably be better off without - it's not like they have a shortage of non-asshole customers lined up waiting to send their money.

Lol, nothing will change, canth. He's made up his mind a long time ago (for whatever reasons) that KNC can do no right and that each and every setback or mistake is a verified justification of his disapproval and vindicates his trolling.

BTCitcointalk 1%ers manipulate the currency and deceive its user community.

One could get the impression there was a statement like 'no happy customers at all'.

I'm happy for you that it worked out so nice, that you do not need to pay this f'ing -/+20% Tax like us Europeans, early delivery date, smoothly working devices and therefore reached break-even. Honestly this is great. I know there's always one in the world doing better than me, so I'm totally fine with it.If nobody would have reached break-even, situation for me would be worse for sure...so really nice!

However I'm confused that you do not care even a little about others suffering (not me). Didn't you consider further business with KnC ? How about next time it might be you punished by bad luck with delayed/messed up delivery, broken miner, delayed RMA, nobody picks up the phone, several days of exhausting email ping-pong while diff increases and other stuff reported...

And this is exactly my point.Nice it worked out! But what's next time ?

I get the delay complaints, I get concerns about break-even (although that's really not KNC's problem since they don't control the network speed or the price of bitcoin) but really, why bring up VAT complaints? If you want to not pay taxes, either move or find a vendor that cheats on taxes.

You didn't answer my question about a full refund. I'm only going to reply to you again if you give me a full answer to that question.

Avenger, there are times when you actually make logical arguments and actually help the community. Why balance that out with troll flame requests like the above? You are the sort of customer that KNC would probably be better off without - it's not like they have a shortage of non-asshole customers lined up waiting to send their money.

Lol, nothing will change, canth. He's made up his mind a long time ago (for whatever reasons) that KNC can do no right and that each and every setback or mistake is a verified justification of his disapproval and vindicates his trolling.

Rising difficulty.... Say thanks to Bitfury. He made his best and made it well. It was not good for us but it's an other question.

Sorry for derailing the thread but speaking of diff, luckily enough for KnC miners (us), it seems that HashFast will deliver its first batch starting from mid-december at best. So this time luck is on our side and against other miners (HF customers). Fate actually plays no favorites, though.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.