It is a radical thing. To say that this man who lived in history is God from all eternity. It is insane.

I was speaking with my Priest about the fact I always feel a little weird or uneasy, when people ask if *really* believe Jesus is God.

He said that Fr. Alexander Schmemann used to say something along the lines it is good that we do not get too "comfortable" with that revelation.

The empty tomb caused the most loyal disciples (the women) to flee. The Risen Christ, the Apostles to be dumb founded. St. Paul to repair to Arabia for three years to comes to grips with his experience.

I think to forget how radical (in the literal sense here: root, come figurative: basis, truth) this first confession of being a Christian is, is why I behave as I do most of the time. To really believe, to really commit myself to the fact I say: Jesus is God, shouldn't just cause others to roll their eyes, silently dismiss me, etc. but also place me in a mood of fear and awe.

It is crazy to believe that a Jew, tortured and nailed to some wood, is God.

IMHO, it should always ring a bit disconcerting even to ourselves.

Otherwise it falls into the oft banality that it does. The one place where Jesus professed as God is consistently done absolutely not in this quotidian manner, in my life at least, is during the liturgy. The Divine Liturgy, at the least in the words, if not the everyone's heart present, treat this mystery with fear and awe.

Sides, I always like to paraphrase Kierkegaard poorly: Christianity must be the true religion, because it is the most absurd.

Get my drift?

Then again, maybe most folks find the crucified Jesus Christ to be God something comfortable and completely rational (I think they are called Thomists //:=)) and I am just a neurotic exception.

What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!

Or contrarywise, someone who prays and recovers from an illness and uses that to prove the existence of God or the efficacy of prayer.

It is silly. And pagan.

So you don't believe in miraculous recoveries? What about miracles?

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

What always irritates me is when someone describes a a really horrible crime, committed by someone claiming to be a believer, then uses that as their proof that not only is there no god but anyone who thinks there is must be at least borderline criminally insane!

Or contrarywise, someone who prays and recovers from an illness and uses that to prove the existence of God or the efficacy of prayer.

It is silly. And pagan.

So you don't believe in miraculous recoveries? What about miracles?

Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan.

Or worse yet: this person was "healed" because they are "special". What about those who ain't?

See the Lord's Prayer and I challenge you to find something that looks like a request from God materially. (That bread ain't bread).

The Christian approach to such things is of course the human reaction to want to be healthy, happy, wealthy, and wise (we are fallen), but Thine not mine is the essence. Jesus Christ himself did not wish to die and prayed to be delivered, but again only according to the Will of the Father. So to pray for things as such, ain't so bad. But if that is the bulk of prayer, I would be concerned.

And if you are healed, then as St. John Chrysostom says (paraphrased) it is to suffer more for the Glory of God. To much is given, much is asked, and all that.

And certainly, you ain't gonna convert a halfway intelligent atheist to become a Christian because someone's cancer went into remission after visiting an icon.

In short, it would seem to me that the essence of Christian prayer is the Lord's Prayer:

God is worshiped.God is thanked as the giver of all things, all of which are good (whether we think so or not).God is asked that He keep offering all those gifts according to His Will.God is asked that might endure all those gifts to His glory, with a specific plea for partaking in the Eucharist to better endure, love, and know His Will.God is asked for forgiveness for all things done and not done by us to His Glory to the measure we do the same for others.God is petitioned not to send to us what would damn us.

Something like that.

Not:

God please take away my cancer. I am so sorry for how I have sinned. And so on.

More:

God please give me the strength to witness to Your Love and Glory whether in health or sickness.

Then you can add in whatever natural human self-centered stuff we need to. But the above is what is of the essence.

Or so I have been taught.

Anything we get is a "miracle", as we deserved nothing in the first place.

Pagans bargain with God for they want.

Christians worship God and thank Him for whatever they have and the strength to witness to Him, whether cancer or winning the lottery.

I completely understand what you are saying and agree with you. In regards to say children being diagnosed with cancer or whatnot, it's God's Will. Before I would make a comparsion between a healthy 4 year old child to one that is going through chemo, the more you get the more that is expected out of you so it seems equal in the end.

I still don't see what's wrong with praying to God to be delivered from illness. Thy will be Done, of course, but the problem I would see is if someone expects God to deliver them.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

I think it's horrible how some Christians tell me that I need to have faith to be healed from my chronic illnesses. As far as I'm concerned, I need to have faith to get up in the morning and keep going. As long as people die and as long as other people are suffering, how dare I expect God to heal me (unless there is a very specific reason for doing so, not because I'm more closer or precious to Him). If I didn't have my illness, I would probably be an actress and I would have totally ditched my faith. I don't know the reason yet, but I am almost halfway convinced that my illness brought me closer to God. That's good enough for me at the moment.

Sometimes in pain I will cry out in prayer for it to be taken away. But most of all, we should have the strength to carry on despite the illness. People don't get magically cured from Down's Syndrome. Most people (if not 100%) who were born mentally retarded remain mentally retarded throughout their lives. People who are missing limbs don't usually grow them back. Do I believe that God can make it happen? Sure, if He wants to, for His purpose. But He doesn't have to, just because I believe in Him. That's insane and arrogant, in my opinion.

But I do believe that miracles happen. I also know that I don't get to pick the place and time. So for the meantime, regardless of how high or low I happen to be feeling at that point, I just want God. That's it.

(Not going to pretend that I am not human and don't want other things, but I've stopped praying for my health a long time ago. I told God that it is His will and I pray strength to do all the work I need to do and be a good wife at the same time.)

My 2 cents.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 05:09:54 PM by IsmiLiora »

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

"Why do you worship a bloodthirsty zombie? Why not just go with Kali?"

I was asked this at a Greekfest in Birmingham, AL. She may have been kidding, teasing, or whatever....but I am not so sure of that, unfortunately.

"Kali" means "beautiful" in Greek, so you never know.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Orthonorm, I knew you were going somewhere with your earlier posts, I had no idea where, but I figured it was somewhere. And darn you for giving me something to contemplate tonight that doesn't involve World of Tanks!

"The very first Christians (a really long time ago), didn't actually believe in god. If there really is a god, no one follows what he'd really want. The majority of Christians in my opinion can't seem to accept other religions or gays (yet the bible says everyone should be accepted for who they are)."

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan."

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us. What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer? If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us? Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did? Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor. But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses? We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan."

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us. What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer? If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us? Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did? Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor. But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses? We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

I might get back to this point. I think there is a huge disconnect in how people understand the litanies in general during Liturgy and "petitionary" prayer as we commonly might understand it in English.

I will get Aposphet's question, certainly.

But I really don't want to get into much arguing during the Fast, even in good spirit. (And a lot of my notes on stuff are being circulated. I have no idea where some of my stuff is.)

So, if it comes down to Patristic or verse mining, I am out. However, if we can stick to some I think generally held principles, it might be worth discussing.

But I fear we will have to stray into matters ontological and economic / providential, if we go far.

Have a good whatever-part-of-the-day-it-is-where-you-are-now, if I have time and the inclination to try to think this weekend or if work is slow, I might reply.

I genuinely am interested in your views, and so if you'd like a non-polemical discussion then I'm up for it (I'm not very good at quote mining anyways), but if you'd like to not so as to avoid breaking the fast, I completely understand.

This is an age-old criticism since almost Christianity began, that Christians secretly partake of cannabalism (secretly because no one but believers were allowed in at the point of the Eucharistic liturgy). Now, it's just a polemical criticism of the Eucharist, said even by a few fringe Protestants.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 10:52:52 PM by minasoliman »

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan."

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us. What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer? If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us? Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did? Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor. But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses? We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

In addition, what do we make of all of the miraculous healings ascribed to Christ in the Gospels? Are we so weak in faith so as to reduce those stories to being spiritual allegory? What too is the purpose of Unction? Do we not anoint the sick with the hopes that God might have mercy on them and heal them in both body and soul (surely Unction is not performed merely for the purpose of some sort of symbolic healing)? If our God does not possess the power to heal human illness, then He also has no power over death, and our entire religion would therefore be false. We must have faith, in my opinion, that God can and does occasionally heal the sick and bring aid to the afflicted; although we cannot be sure of why some are helped and others are not, for that knowledge is God's alone to know.

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Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan."

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us. What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer? If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us? Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did? Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor. But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses? We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

In addition, what do we make of all of the miraculous healings ascribed to Christ in the Gospels? Are we so weak in faith so as to reduce those stories to being spiritual allegory? What too is the purpose of Unction? Do we not anoint the sick with the hopes that God might have mercy on them and heal them in both body and soul (surely Unction is not performed merely for the purpose of some sort of symbolic healing)? If our God does not possess the power to heal human illness, then He also has no power over death, and our entire religion would therefore be false. We must have faith, in my opinion, that God can and does occasionally heal the sick and bring aid to the afflicted; although we cannot be sure of why some are helped and others are not, for that knowledge is God's alone to know.

I have about 7.26 minutes free right now and maybe for the next few days.

Definitely, not going down the road of rhetoricals, which really only show you didn't read my post or are too lazy to put forth any reasonable argument of your own.

Nor am I going to argue points I didn't touch on.

The above is just a hysterical reaction to my words with no substantive content.

----------------------------------

To others who actually would like to discuss stuff, James for example.

I certainly understand my ideas might seem to be minority opinion and wrong, but I am not so sure once we get to brass tacks.

Again, I don't have the silly amount of "free time" for the next few days that I normally do and the above touch on a few threads I promised to follow up on. I am at a bit of a loss, as I have lent out a lot of my notes on things.

And of course, I couched my initial comments in a provocative manner.

But again as much I usually enjoy taking apart histrionics, I ain't going to now. And I am not going to get into a quote contest. And I am promise not to get too philosophical. To the degree I do, I promise to be concise and entertaining.

If anyone wants to start with the strongest criticism against my argument, it would be to criticize the Lord's Prayer, or at least as I parsed it. It certainly has nothing in there about praying for what much of this age finds to be "good." That includes "health" (yes I mean those scare quotes). (There is a good criticism of my parsing of it, which I acknowledge, but won't put for myself for the time being.)

That is THE framework of all prayer and the ONLY Christian prayer as such. All other prayers conform to its structure and content, to the extent they are Christian.

I didn't say it is "bad" or "wrong" per se to pray for such things. I certainly ain't gonna look at someone whose child is dying and fervently praying for them to be healed and "correct" them.

My point is that we should be careful that petitionary prayer doesn't become the bulk of our prayer life. And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se. But that is something we may or may not get to.

I just want to make clear, lest I offend, that I don't mean to upbraid or make light of folks' suffering and they very understandable reaction to it.

I think above all we need to remember that the ultimate healing, the ultimate satisfaction, comes with the bodily resurrection. This is when all the promises come to fruition fully, "And He shall wipe every tear from their eyes..."

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Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

I didn't say it is "bad" or "wrong" per se to pray for such things. I certainly ain't gonna look at someone whose child is dying and fervently praying for them to be healed and "correct" them.

My point is that we should be careful that petitionary prayer doesn't become the bulk of our prayer life. And I don't think the litanies are petitions per se. But that is something we may or may not get to.

I just want to make clear, lest I offend, that I don't mean to upbraid or make light of folks' suffering and they very understandable reaction to it.

That is certainly a good point, that we not let our petitions become the chief part of our prayer, because prayer is meant to be about God and not about us. But I have never heard the argument that litanies aren't petitions (perhaps because I've never really paid too much attention to Fr. Thomas Hopko?). If anyone has a podcast or an essay or something on this view point, I'd be interested.

You all do know that by publicly airing your pet peeves you're just giving me more ammunition for future debates, right?

Not that I mean to sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the help.

Please pursue the "mushroom god" line of thinking, that would be the most entertaining path you could take.

That would definitely be one of the more difficult positions to argue...it has the disadvantage of not merely being wrong, but also being absurd. Though I'll see if I can work it into an argument at some point...maybe I can make it work if we get thread about Christianity and drug use.

No direct evidence, just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand. But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace, than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians. Without additional evidence, the simpler explanation is more likely to be the correct one.

No direct evidence, just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand. But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace, than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians. Without additional evidence, the simpler explanation is more likely to be the correct one.

No direct evidence, just postmortem references and accounts, most second or third hand. But it seems more probable that the religion was based on one of the many Jewish spiritual gurus of the time, which were quite commonplace, than an entire life and biography and back story being made up by the first Christians. Without additional evidence, the simpler explanation is more likely to be the correct one.

I never said it is ridiculous to say there is no evidence Christianity is true, only that there is no evidence Jesus called Christ ever existed.

The first proposition is tolerable, the second is just stupid and unworthy of the oft-clever people who come out with it.

"Frankly asking God to be healed smacks of paganism in the first place. And can lead right to paganism: I'll do this, if You do this. And folks can pile on Orthodox traditions which look just like this. And well those would be pagan."

While I would agree, Orthonorm, that one shouldn't ask God to heal us in exchange for something - if for no other reason than God doesn't cut deals - that is a far cry from simply asking God to heal us. What is wrong with asking Him to heal us of, say, cancer? If we are permitted to petition Him for anything - and we petition Him substantially in the Liturgy (for instance, the litanies) - then why should we not petition Him to heal us? Even more, why should we not petition Him to heal those we care for, as the Centurion did? Certainly we shouldn't be asking that God lay aside all His plans and all His wisdom to grant us a favor simply because we want it, regardless of the outcome of said favor. But why should we not ask Him to lay aside our illnesses? We shouldn't be mad or disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's not a reason to refrain from praying for it.

In addition, what do we make of all of the miraculous healings ascribed to Christ in the Gospels? Are we so weak in faith so as to reduce those stories to being spiritual allegory? What too is the purpose of Unction? Do we not anoint the sick with the hopes that God might have mercy on them and heal them in both body and soul (surely Unction is not performed merely for the purpose of some sort of symbolic healing)? If our God does not possess the power to heal human illness, then He also has no power over death, and our entire religion would therefore be false. We must have faith, in my opinion, that God can and does occasionally heal the sick and bring aid to the afflicted; although we cannot be sure of why some are helped and others are not, for that knowledge is God's alone to know.

I have about 7.26 minutes free right now and maybe for the next few days.

Definitely, not going down the road of rhetoricals, which really only show you didn't read my post or are too lazy to put forth any reasonable argument of your own.

Nor am I going to argue points I didn't touch on.

The above is just a hysterical reaction to my words with no substantive content.

----------------------------------

To others who actually would like to discuss stuff, James for example.

I certainly understand my ideas might seem to be minority opinion and wrong, but I am not so sure once we get to brass tacks.

Again, I don't have the silly amount of "free time" for the next few days that I normally do and the above touch on a few threads I promised to follow up on. I am at a bit of a loss, as I have lent out a lot of my notes on things.

And of course, I couched my initial comments in a provocative manner.

But again as much I usually enjoy taking apart histrionics, I ain't going to now. And I am not going to get into a quote contest. And I am promise not to get too philosophical. To the degree I do, I promise to be concise and entertaining.

If anyone wants to start with the strongest criticism against my argument, it would be to criticize the Lord's Prayer, or at least as I parsed it. It certainly has nothing in there about praying for what much of this age finds to be "good." That includes "health" (yes I mean those scare quotes). (There is a good criticism of my parsing of it, which I acknowledge, but won't put for myself for the time being.)

That is THE framework of all prayer and the ONLY Christian prayer as such. All other prayers conform to its structure and content, to the extent they are Christian.

Thine not Mine.

My argument was that asking God for our well-being is integral to our faith. If we do not believe that God can provide for our well-being, then we cannot possibly believe that He can resurrect us from the dead. Given, there are times when God has another plan for us and does not answer our petitions, but it cannot hurt to ask God for help in times of hardship. I don't find anything particularly pagan about that. Sure, we shouldn't bargain with God, but what is particularly pagan about asking for help? Then again, what do I know, since apparently I'm too lazy to make a reasonable argument.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 06:14:13 PM by Cavaradossi »

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Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

A bowl of clay have been found in Egypt dating back to the first century on which there stand "BY Christ the magician" It was supposedlu made by a local magician who had heard of Christ and his miracles and tried to use his name to convince his customers about his "supernatural" powers.

A bowl of clay have been found in Egypt dating back to the first century on which there stand "BY Christ the magician" It was supposedlu made by a local magician who had heard of Christ and his miracles and tried to use his name to convince his customers about his "supernatural" powers.

Well, some of the first Christians were the 'magical' magi.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.