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1—7 October

Geoff − and anyone else else interested!
I'm really not trying to 'push' geology but your comment that "The great difficulty with geology is that a simple word like limestone − or granite for that matter − covers an enormous range of rocks which can be quite different from one another" is precisely the problem I was trying to avoid! Sure there are various kinds and textures of limestone and there is a very famous text titled "Granites and Granites" but at least, in the geological context these rocks are definable. To be limestone, a rock needs to be at least 70% calcium carbonate. To be granite, a rock needs to be coarsley crystalline and of quartz, feldspar and mica.
What I was trying to point out is that many of the rocks sold in non-geological contexts can be quite different from the geological name used to label them and are often inconsistently named. So-called black-granites are usually gabbro − a very different coarsely textured rock. Your suspicion that marble is an altered (thermally recrystallised) limestone is correct and therefore may be just as useful as a source of lime although limestones are are exceedingly variable in compactness, porosity and permeability as your examples from China (Limestone of the Carboniferous?), the Cotswolds (Jurassic limestone of various textures), the Chalk (Cretaceous limestone) and so on.
Of course, anyone is at liberty to call the rock they sell whatever they wish but my point is precisely about the avoidance of confusion. At least, if you look up granite or limestone in a geological textbook you will find a definition, albeit a widely embracing one on occasion. Granite is pretty restricted in variability geologically but from a monumental mason, tile shop or maybe garden centre it can cover a range well beyond your "enormous range of rocks which can be quite different from one another " and into another widely and equally variable type!
I was trying to make life easier − or at least consistent. The real problem is that the characteristics we need for orchid substrates aren't consistently characteristics of specific rocks (sandstones can be porous and permeable, but also non-porous and permeable but in the context of orchid culture the porosity is the important characteristic along with (I guess) the inertness (?).
I think we are all guilty of woolly thinking; we talk about composts when we aren't referring to a medium with nutrients − substrate might be better.
My message is simply; if a rock is named in a non-geological commercial context. don't assume that looking it up in a geological text will enlighten you! The whole thing started with a reference to granite and basalt in the 'same breath' as if they were vaguely similar. They are very different and have very different (I suspect) horticulturally-relevant properties. More than one geologist has used wild plants as clues to the underlying rocks from which a soil is derived and the vegetation on granite is different from that on basalts if the soils over them are derived from those rocks (and not from say a glacial overlay.
Incidentally, karst limestone isn't a kind of limestone but a kind of solution along joints (cracks) at the surface (or beneath soil) as near Malham in Yorkshire (which is probably the equivalent of what you've seen in China!)
Hope you're enjoying China. I'm almost tempted to ask you to bring a stick of rock back! Lettered all through in Chinese of course!
John

Geoff Hands wrote on Saturday, September 29:

> In my stay in China I spent some time in Guilin , travelling some 60 or
> so km along the river through this amazing landscape of vertical-sided
> mountains − I think Averyanov illustrates something similar in his
> Orchids of Vietnam book, and Dr Cribb shows slides of the same area,
> just a few mile of Guilin in his talk on the orchids of SW China..
>
> Now the point is that these mountains are made of Karst limestone -
> which in some places is superficially as hard as glass , although a
> limestone . I assume it is almost or quite metamorphic , which I assume
> to be the explanation for marble too − also a limestone.

1. Why do they lime the fields in Kent? Could it be that the residue, after solution of a limestone, is a veneer of acid clayey soil? And a lime treatment will help to give it a better texture?

2. Re; other folks compost 'eaps; I suppose you haven't any Habeniera rhodocheila on you compost have you? (just winding you up!!!).

John

Geoff Hands wrote on Friday, September 28:

> You can find the John Innes compost formulaes on the web − just google
> the term. However from memory lime is not added.
>
> But I understand there is now an ericaceous formulae − lime free.
>
> As to harming terrestrials , I recall that a large proportion of the UK
> natives are found in Kent, which is more or less a large lump of lime (
> white cliffs of Dover , etc.)

Yes, it's that time of year again when the damp nights are a boon for the nasty creatures who seem to delight in chewing at our flower spikes.

This very morning I was looking at a spike on one of my Phalaenopsis. It was about 6 inches/150 c.m. in height. Something had eaten a hole in it about half way up. This hole had just the outer skin on one side remaining, and that I hope may just allow enough goodness to keep it going, or am I being too optimistic !!! I have that certain feeling that the rascal was another caterpillar, same as last year.

Thing is, that while visiting a friend this morning, she told me that the bowl of milk which was in her conservatory for her cat had attracted two slugs, which were very dead due to the fact that they could not swim very well.

So, just an hour ago I placed eight small plastic saucers on my benching and filled them with..........wait for it, not milk, but cider, from a can that was not required.

Tomorrow morning I will report any sightings.

If only it would attract slugs, snails, caterpillars, woodlice.

Always trying......

And now on to my 'Attachment'.

My wife is the Fuchsia enthusiast, and like most Fuchsia fans, she doses the plants with Provado Vine Weevil Killer before they are put to sleep in the greenhouse.

Thing is, does anyone have any information regarding dunking orchid pots in a bucket of the solution.

After reading John's missive which appeared in my mailbox immediately before
this one of mine sending a picture, I have to add two caveats ..

1.Never mind composts or substrates − we are ( oh so frequently) told
that certain paphs "grow on limestone" and the reality is so far different
from what we might think from our limited experience of say living in the
Cotswolds or walking in the Jura , that the information is actually
misleading and unhelpful ! But my contribution was along the lines of what
happens in the wild, not what kind of lumps to buy from Wyevale snd put in
your pots

2.Maybe when you look at my picture , you will say − "that ain't
Karst" − so I add − , I am merely relaying what I was told.

Ps I did an extra mural three year course in geology at Birmingham ( as a
fun thing − not a degree course at all ) − and I have no recollection of
Karst or limestone ever being discussed , but I admit that it was more than
a week or two ago when I did that...in fact it was pre-orchids for me -
which certainly dates it to the 19th century I should think, well, before
1960 anyway.

(b) In the bit of Kent where I used to go most frequently ( visiting a
relative who was chief chemist for a certain well known cement company0 they
didn't grow anything worth mentioning in the fields − grubbing them up to
make cement was environmentally very good I should think.)

(c) Are you sure you mean lime ( spread on the fields) and not marl ?

geoff

John Stanley wrote on 01 October:

> Geoff,
>
> Why do they lime the fields in Kent? Could it be that the residue, after
> solution of a limestone, is a veneer of acid clayey soil? And a lime
> treatment will help to give it a better texture?

Why do you want to split it? If it is too big for the container it grows in,
just move it into a bigger shallow container and let it get bigger.
For splitting it, wait until all leaves have died and the first signs of new
leaves are emerging. Then carefully take it out of the pot, break it into
individual corms and re-pot into whatever you normally use.
Good luck.
Peter from Bloubergstrand

I will give that a try. I might try the root soak/wrap too!
Love the mountains whatever they are made of.

Andy

"Geoff Hands" wrote on Sunday, September 30:

>I think you will find that if you give it a dry rest , then simply cut
> through and dust the surfaces of the almost tuber-like roots with sulphur
> or something when you repot, you will have no trouble. IT seems cast
> iron unless too wet or too warm

Which model do you have Tina? I seem to remember a long time ago there being some discussion of these on this site but I would appreciate revisiting it. Anyone with advice on uses, effectiveness, sources or anything else would be appreciated. Do they have to be comnnected to mains water or can I use a static tank?

> Can anybody tell me what this is? I have had it for a long time and now
> it has suddenly decided to go all flowery on me. The plants are moderate
> sized, but the flowers are almost miniature; there is no scent that I
> can detect.

Geoff,
You probably wouldn'y have much instruction on karst topography in your geology extramural course at Birmingham because that would have been considered a geomorphological topic rather than a geological one. There was always a need to leave something for the geographers to do, otherwise they'd have taken over geology too!

I have been trying to get details of the geology of these famous mountains and I think they may be either Carboniferous or Permian limestones. While you are there, and having a respite from all the orchids, see if you can discover the age of the rocks. I am aware that there are many outcrops and exposures of Carboniferous Limestone in China. In hand specimen and fossils contained, you'd have difficulty distinguishing it from our UK Carb. What is different are the climatic conditions that caused its erosion into the extraordinary features you illustrate. I don't understand why I'm (we're) expected to suggest it isn't karst. Why not? The main difference is that our UK karst scenery is on plateaux but I am not aware of this being implicit in the name.

Back to orchids; I agree entirely with your comments re − natural conditions and what we put in our pots or not (from Wyevale or Wang Hong). I repeat; I was simply trying to clear confusion − not advocate a growth method! But I think we should know what we are talking about whether we approve its use or not.

ps; it occurs to me that maybe your Extra Mural class was a long time before the formation of karst . . pre- Permian perhaps? Personally, I can't remember much before the extinction of the dinosaurs, but then, I'm a younger lad than you..

John

Geoff Hands wrote on Monday, October 01:

> After reading John's missive which appeared in my mailbox immediately
> before this one of mine sending a picture, I have to add two caveats...

Geoff,
They certainly lime fields on the Derbyshire Carboniferous Limestone and I have seen (and were then puzzled by) the liming of fields in the Cotswolds.

I haven't observed liming in Kent (I haven't observed much of Kent) but I know a man who has (as they say!). However, even if I'm wrong and you are right, marl is a clay or mud with a significant calcium carbonate content. Why would they put that on limestone-derived soils?

Incidentally, it occurs to me that orchids (bee, pyramidal etc) on west coast sand dune slacks are growing on what is a lime sand (shell sand). I have never seen them on quartz sand . . .do you know better?

Oh, you can't have too much of Habenaria rhodocheila ! Have you seen it in
Thailand ? It grows in wet mossy clumps on the edges of copses − maybe
dappled shade − in colonies of several hundred plants , a wonderful sight.
I have never seen it offered in UK , and although I have a recollection of
Peter Williams getting a couple of tiny plants for me, they did not prosper.

There are a few different colour forms, or maybe related species − I
remember seeing a photograph in a National Park refreshment room, of an
apparently pink form . I assumed it was taken in that park, and asked
directions , and we ( Peter etc ) tried to get there. It was said to be 3
or 4 kilometres to the waterfall, where this picture was taken. Several
hours later having fought our way over a switchback path which involved
sliding down near vertical muddy banks and then clawing our way up the
other side clutching at tree roots as the only purchase available, and
having still not reached the waterfall , we gave up...

John, you mentioned Bee Orchids and the type of sand, which I found very interesting especially as I am very interested in a little geology.

In the middle of the New Forest there is a very good colony of Bee Orchids growing quite happily. Many years ago, in January, I counted two hundred and ninety leaf rosettes. Not all of them flowered but the colony still exists.

So, how did they get there and how do they survive?

A railway track runs through the area, dismantled in the Beeching era. Some of the plants in that area grow in an area known as a New Forest Lawn, meaning that it looks like it has been mowed, and these areas are always like that. Good for picnicking and the like.

Some grow just across the road in CLAY, and also a similar type of soil.

A few miles away there are three or four disused Marl Pits.

Hope this interest you and other members, and opens up the minds of people who are interested in the New Forest soils and the orchids that grow there.

And as for the belt of many coloured sands, well, they stretch from Alum Bay in the Isle of Wight to at least the outskirts of Salisbury.

I'm not at all sure we should be continuing this lovely discussion in List -
it would be much better in the "Ship in Distress" over a pint and a few
Mudeford crab sandwiches, but you do live an inconveniently long way away
from the South Coast , so if others do not object, lets do it . If they do,
we can go private..or they can go to...

Unfortunately I can't go out and knock of a lump of rock and look for
fossils etc, as I got back to Blighty some days ago − long enough for
jet-lag to have worn off, not long enough to be able to contemplate another
long flight ( have just cancelled a trip to Ecuador/Galapagos , planned for
January, in fact − maybe I'll never fly long haul again.I've never said that
before, although dearly beloved has being saying it for the last 5 long-haul
flights ! ).

To return to our muttons.

You should know that an extinction event not only wipes out species at a
faster rate than usual ( the way environmentalists go on about loss of
species, as though this is something due to the evils of man in general, or
Tony Blair in particular, make me laugh ; how many million/billion/trillion
species have evolved, lived and died in the past ? and in the future ? It
must be the glass of wine I had with my Brie at lunch which makes me so
philosophical − what a long subsidiary clause − time I closed it ) but − [
the extinction event] also wipes out memories.

That's why even a bright old geezer like me can't actually remember anything
before 251.4 million years ago − at least that's when Wikipedia says it was
; what a clever chap is that Wikipedia ! − all I recall was that it was
before "Flash Gordon's Trip to Mars" started − ( note how ell I avoided the
trap of starting a political discussion at that point).

Where was it that you said that Karst scenery could be seen in UK ? Maybe
that will be my next long haul trip !

I have just digressed to have a look at the Open University site − thought
that I'd like to learn something properly instead of just relying on
speed-reading and picking it up on the hoof , as I has d to do all my
working life − but as usual , what's on offer and what I want don't
coincide. Maybe I'll just learn Mandarin instead.

Only John will (may ? ) ( might just possibly ? ) have read this far , but
never mind, I'll read it myself when (if?) it gets back to me .

But for anyone else, here's comments on the added images, which have
nothing to do with the message − they just happen to be what I have out at
the moment or at least , ones I have not shown before (?) :-

Miltassia Mary Hollingshurst − chopped up and and repotted last year − one
of the pieces now flowering . Lovely Mtssa − never commercialised − bred by
George Black.

Cattleya Taiwan "Green Emerald" − Orchids were selling these ( aka nearly
giving away) at Weston BOC . They were in flower . This is the first
flowering since − at least 50% larger ( I'm amazed ! ) Could be C aclandiae
in there ? Can't look it up , WildCatt is on a different computer − it
doesn't run with Vista in the version I have.

Vanda lamellate − small- flowered V species. I like them − in fact I am
going off the big hybrids.

Cattleya (?) Laelia (?) species ? All that I can read on the label is sib
cross of two coerulea varieties. Suggestions ?

Macradenia brassavolae − a first flowering for me − has been in the
collection a couple of years. A miniature, of course . Rather sweet little
flowers, 15mm across − you need good eyes to appreciate this !

BL Binosa − Wabash Valley − looks the same as the other Binosas − but I
can't resist buying these.

It may be a previous model as I think I bought it from Mike before he sold the business but the current equivalent is the Hydrofogger 400 at £499. That was about the amount I paid.

Mine is connected to mains water but have a look at the website for other alternatives. I control it with a humidistat set to 65 during the day. It is on a time clock to switch off at night. Sometimes, on dry summer mornings, I may set it much higher for a few minutes while I open up other greenhouses (just to get a good fog) but not for too long or the electric fan heater trips.

Andy wrote on Monday, October 01:

> Which model do you have Tina? I seem to remember a long time ago there
> being some discussion of these on this site but I would appreciate
> revisiting it. Anyone with advice on uses, effectiveness, sources or
> anything else would be appreciated. Do they have to be comnnected to
> mains water or can I use a static tank?

I tried your method which worked to a degree in as much that the plant was some what easier to get out of the pot and the bark from the roots, which were up to 24 inches long and as whilst I could get them back into the same pot it was then only possible to insert no more the than 6 or 7 pebbles. The amount of dead root was negligible and really the plant did not need repotting. The plant was last potted Jan 05 in best Canadian bark which was still in good condition.In the end I put it in the next size up pot.
I'm afraid the picture quality is not very good, a bit wishy washy.Digital photography is not is not my forte, there is another one showing the root length but for some reason it will not attache to this email. Will try it separately.
Ronbow.

> Cattleya Taiwan "Green Emerald" − Orchids were selling these ( aka
> nearly giving away) at Weston BOC . They were in flower . This is the
> first flowering since − at least 50% larger ( I'm amazed ! ) Could be
> C aclandiae in there ? Can't look it

Since Geoff and I have got(ten) caught up in a geological discourse that may have bored the pants off nearly everyone else, may I apologise: I didn't intend to hijack the forum!
For those still with their pants on and who might like to follow the discussion, let me know and we can prattle on about karst, geology, carbonate and wotnot in a private circle.
John

My experience of bee orchids is only from Aberffraw and Newborough (Niwbyrch) on Anglesey where the sands are certainly calcareous to a degree that if they were solidified they'd be limestone! I wasn't suggesting that they don't grow in quartz sand so much as curious to know if they do.

I am familiar with the Alum Bay sands (I even have the regulation stripy test tube of them somewhere!) but I am not aware of much difference in carbonate content in them.

I also know the New Forest enough to know that its rain can flood a tent quite well! In my books bee orchids are supposed to like calcareous and basic soils; that should eliminate acid (silica or quartz-rich) ones. (Ignore the paragraph indentation. A quirk of Outlook Express and it's too late at night to sort it out!)

If you live near where the bee orchids grow, maybe you could send me a thimbleful of the sand/soil?

I have a bunch of Oerstedella ( my horses eat more than most people can imagine) Some are really beautiful but rather lanky and difficult to deal with branches of 2 meters are common. I am lloking to cross it and make a smaller plant that has its beauty and robustness. I would love to here some ideas on what to cross these with.

I have looked at both of your photos, and I have a question to ask you my good friend.

The first photo taken at 3:35pm shows the plant out of its pot and still retaining the shape of the pot, with what I think I can see, quite a few pieces of bark still on then roots and in the centre of the root mass. Is that correct?

The second photo taken at 3:43pm shows the 'combed' roots [as I call it] showing just maybe a few pieces of bark. Do you, as I do, make sure that every piece of bark or whatever is removed?

The roots look excellent Ron-Bow, and I am sure that Phally will do very well indeed in its new home.

When I have to tease the old pieces of bark or whatever from the root mass, I use various sizes of pointed 'sticks' or whatever suits the job.

I imagine you mean O.centradenia ? It is supposed to be in the Laeliniae -
so it would be worth trying any of the cattleya tribe. But goodness knows
what success you will have ! However, if grown properly you will have lots
of flowers to use as seed parent , and it may be worth just sticking pollen
from every L. family plant you have onto yet another flower until (if) you
do find success.

I, for one, ready the posts with interest. If I was hijacked, then I
enjoyed the trip!

On 10/2/07, John Stanley wrote:
>
> Since Geoff and I have got(ten) caught up in a geological discourse that
> may have bored the pants off nearly everyone else, may I apologise: I didn't
> intend to hijack the forum!
> For those still with their pants on and who might like to follow the
> discussion, let me know and we can prattle on about karst, geology,
> carbonate and wotnot in a private circle.

Hi folks,
Forgive my intrusion into your emotional relationship with Rocky but, what is a "wirey hug" and how does it differ from or resemble any other kind of hug that might be on offer? I shouldn't get too close to Rocky for a while though, he'll be up to his elbows in New Forest sand so that we can find out about bee orchid environments. Similar precaution necessary to avoid a gritty tongue I suppose!
Rocky will no doubt interpret "chuffed" for you but he might not suggest "over the Moon" as a convenient alternative.
Cheers
John

jazzbo wrote on Thursday, October 04:

> Hi Rocky,
> I don't know the word "chuffed" though it sounds happy. Not used here
> in America.
> Wirey hugs and love and xxx and licks from Janet, Bobby and Asta

On 04 Oct, in article ,
John Stanley wrote:
> Hi folks,
> Forgive my intrusion into your emotional relationship with Rocky but,
> what is a "wirey hug" and how does it differ from or resemble any other
> kind of hug that might be on offer?

jazzbo wrote on Thursday, October 04:
>> Wirey hugs and love and xxx and licks from Janet, Bobby and Asta

John, as fan of old films I'm guessing that Asta is the clue, especially as
licks are also mentioned!

Janet, am I correct in thinking that Asta is a wire-haired terrier as in
the 'Thin Man' films with William Powell and Myrna Loy or am I barking up
the wrong tree? :-)

I have never seen those numbers before but they sound reasonable, we are having similar numbers. MY coments we more complaining about space and where to put all the plants. Were you speaking of Milton? I have a few of his plants (wish I had more).

I was just looking for some ideas as there are lots of people out there making out there crosses, I'd like to get in touch with some of them to talk about, the good bad and the ugly

I have a 50+ Cats and Laelia species, bunches of miltonias brasiass, bunches of denddrobiums, paphs, phrags, oncs, epidendriums, encyclias, tricopilieas, many minitures, vandas, (everything but phals) that we are working with as well, it is kind of getting out of contol in my green house.

I guess my note didn't go through. Perhaps because I included a photo of
Asta. Asta is my wire haired fox terrier and the sign off automatically
ends all my emails unless I remove it.
Wirey hugs and love and xxx and licks from Janet, Bobby and Asta

You may remember that I posted three photos of my Phally that had unexpectedly dropped a leaf, and that I had wondered why.

I did think that neck rot might have been the culprit but that I had my doubts.

Well, I did take it along to the Gardening Club that I gave my talk to.

I told the audience that I would de-pot it in front of their eyes. So I held the plant up by its two spikes and stakes, after carefully slipping it out of the clear plastic pot. I suspended it over a plastic bucket and just gave it a VERY LIGHT SHAKE..........bloody hell!!!

Excuse my wording, but the whole complete compost just dropped away as if its life depended on it, bloody hell, why did it do that???

There were only two very tiny pieces of bark still attached to the roots.

I have never seen a compost do that before. Normally I would expect to see much bark and the like attached to the roots.

So, I had a good look at this mess. It consisted of quite small pieces of bark, mixed with what I would say was tiny pieces of chopped sphagnum moss. Death to order I would call it.

So, at least the root system was very good and I only had to snip off a few inches here and there.

Now safe and sound in my stone compost.

I look forward to the future for this nice light yellow Phally with the red lips.