25 August 2006

The worth of a woman: the Bible vs. the Quran

Don't you love it when the Bible and the Quran agree (more or less) on something? I do. Because whenever they do, you can be pretty sure they're both wrong.

Take the worth of a woman, for example. They go at it from slightly different angles, but come up with the same answer. A woman is worth about half as much as a man.

Here's what the Bible has to say.

And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver.... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.

And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels. -- Leviticus 27:3-7

So, depending on their age, females are worth 1/2 to 2/3 as much as males.

But what does the Quran say?

Well it doesn't come right out, like the Good Book does, and place a monetary value on human life, male and female. But it does compare the value of men and women from a financial point of view.

Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. -- Quran 4:11

... unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. -- Quran 4:176

And the Quran tells us just how much we should trust a woman's testimony: it's worth half that of a man's.

And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women. -- Quran 2:282

So praised be Jesus and Muhammed (peanut butter and jelly be upon them)! The Bible and the Quran agree: a woman is worth half as much as a man.

Well yeah, and the funny thing is lots of religions do that. It was fun researching this a while back.

To give an easy example, think pandora's box.

I got a christian woman's response to be: "It was written by men, obviously". Funny thing is, that's basically the point. Nearly every pagan story that outdates christianity blames women for the fall of mankind.

Well that is not true of the pagan/pantheistic polytheist Hindoos - they have no concept of fall of mankind!

Their cosmogony says the universe passes through 4 phases, each successive phase being less ordered (like entropy), less good, more evil, etc. until the whole thing is destroyed and restarted on a fresh cycle by the universal intelligent entity, a.k.a. Brahman.

In the New Testament, men are told to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Christ sacrificed all for his church, including his very life. Christ also respected women while he was here on earth even rescuing and forgiving one caught in adultery.

hello ,well about this part in the quran :'Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.' -- Quran 4:11

its because in islam , the man's financial obligations are far more than those of the woman. the man gives the dowry to his wife.he pays for all the necessities of life such as accommodation,food,and clothes.on the other hand,the wife doesnt have to suppoert anyone even herself because her husband is responsible for maintaining her,no matter how rich she is.

while,in the bible ,the woman has no right to inherit whether she 's a mother, a sister, a wife, or a daughter except for the daughter who has no brothers.this law was in use until the last century and some hugh-class families in Europe still give most of their possessions to the first-born son .

and about this part :'And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women.' -- Quran 2:282

well thats not because women are not trusted.. no, its because Most women judge by her their emotions and they cant control their emotions toward something.. they may just hide the truth because they're afraid someone may get hurt or they may accuse someone of something because they know very well that he's the kind of person that could do it. unlike men, who most of the time , judge by facts more than feelings and emotions.

the quran respects the woman so much.

"never will i allow you to be lost the work of any of you , male or female , you are one of another" (Quran 3:195)

you guys... read Joseph Campbell. The patriarchal religious thought is a common paradigm that took over the previous, matriarchal paradigm ie. earth worship, goddess worship, fertility rites, etc. a lot of symbolism in the bible, for instance god destroying leviathan, is representative of the younger, male generation of thought overwhelming the ancient, female represented by serpents, waters, the moon and so on

"well thats not because women are not trusted.. no, its because Most women judge by her their emotions and they cant control their emotions toward something"

Yes, it's not because they can't be trusted, but because they're too emotional, and therefore can't be trusted.

I love that. They're too emotional to be trusted to give true testimony. Of course, men are not influenced by their emotions... say, because they want to protect someone. Or because they want to *harm* someone. A man wouldn't give false testimony against someone he dislikes, would he?

No, I know plenty of men who judge by feelings and emotions (or who lie).

When God created Adam, he said, "It is not good for a man to be alone." So he had Adam go through all the animals and name them (and the Hebrew verb for name implies giving a name based on identity, rather than just assigning an arbitrary tag). When Adam was finished with all the animals, there still was not found a suitable companion for him. So God created Eve. Many Christians assert on this basis that woman is the crown of creation. The title "helper" (Hebrew: "ezer") is not an inherently demeaning one, as many suggest. God Himself is described with the same word on multiple occasions (Psalm 10:14, John 14:16, Hebrews 13:6). Note that, since Christianity teaches that God inspired all of Scripture through human writers, He chose the title of Helper for Himself.

At other places in the Old Testament, God honors women by giving them prominence in His plan: Esther, who saved her people; Deborah, who led the nation of Israel; and Huldah the prophetess. In the book of Proverbs, wisdom is frequently personified as a woman, and in other places. God even gives his blessing to a young man's raptures over his sweetheart/bride in the Song of Solomon.

In the New Testament, Jesus sought women out (John 4), taught them (Luke 10:38-42), and had them among His followers (Luke 24:9-11). The first person he appeared to after His resurrection was Mary Magdalene.

The apostles, too, gave honor to women and allowed them prominent positions in the church (notably Priscilla, but also Lydia, Euodia, and Syntyche). John addressed his second epistle to the otherwise-unnamed Elect Lady.

As to women's silence in church, when Paul said, "Let women learn in silence," he was saying two things: first the imperative "Let women learn," which was revolutionary in his day, and second, "in silence," which places the primary responsibility for church leadership in the hands of men. This is because God created men for headship and women for complementarian submission. He did not mean headship to be domineering or submission servile. God does not necessarily think women are weaker than men--notice He did not create man as a helpmate for woman--He just calls them to a different kind of strength: that of supportive self-restraint and self-giving. Men are also to be self-restrained and self-giving, but in a protective way. For this reason, God lays on men the primary responsibility for leadership in the home and in the church. (Perhaps that's why He demanded higher prices for men than women in the Leviticus passage Steve mentioned.)

Regarding head coverings, there are solid hermeneutical reasons to believe that Paul told women to cover their heads so that they not offend against cultural conventions of masculinity and femininity. It was not a universal mandate.

It doesn't suffice to take a few passages from the Bible to make it say something that it doesn't really say. Steve says the Bible calls women inferior, while Christian feminists interpret it the other way in order to support women's liberation. They can't both be right. In order to find out what the Bible really says, one has to research available references thoroughly. If anyone happens to be interested in further reading, many of these issues and more are discussed in "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Christian Feminism," edited by John Piper and Wayne Grudem. They confront feminism in the church, but they also emphatically affirm the equal value of men and women.

"well thats not because women are not trusted.. no, its because Most women judge by her their emotions and they cant control their emotions toward something"

Yes, it's not because they can't be trusted, but because they're too emotional, and therefore can't be trusted.

I love that. They're too emotional to be trusted to give true testimony. Of course, men are not influenced by their emotions... say, because they want to protect someone. Or because they want to *harm* someone. A man wouldn't give false testimony against someone he dislikes, would he?

No, I know plenty of men who judge by feelings and emotions (or who lie).

For example... you.

Wow, was that necessary? In the rules of a formal debate, you don't use ad hominem arguments. In other words, don't attack the person. If somebody makes a sensible argument, and you disagree with it, just give your reasons why, don't attack.

heyyy bastards why dont u read the whole surah ın the kuran? u all are liar why dont u try to learn the truth? have u ever tried to read the quran? dont u have brains? dont u see they show u the verses by changing their meaning? stupid morons.

thank u emmy for clearing things up more as he/she said "IN ISLAM" so he/she is just telling what he/she wants ,plz we r in 21st century not in the dark ages , women inherit less in islam that doesnt mean that ITS RIGHT, maybe ACCOURDING TO UR CULT , a women needs these days r much similer to man u know cars/properties/other,so a woman must be as same as a man, 1/2 is not 1 , so its so unfair , by the way there r lots of women have a higher IQ than men,a woman doctor is better like a savage man that lives in the desert ,so dont judge ALL women like they r stupid or lower than men, so think abuot, dont just go along for everything they tell u, grow up

Males are holy to God, not females. Luke 2:23Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men. Romans 1:27Abandon your wife and family for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. Luke 18:29-30Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families. Mark 10:29-30In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women.Mark 13:17"Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days." Matthew 24:19If a woman refuses to cover her head in church, then her her head must be shaved. 11:5-6 1corinthiansMen are made in the image of God; women in the image of men. Women were created from and for men. 1corinthians 11:7-9Wives must submit to their husbands "in every thing" as though they were Christ. "For the husband is the head of the wife." Ephesians 5:22-24You should help a widow only if she 1) is over 60 years old, 2) had only one husband, 3) has raised children, 4) has lodged strangers, 5) has "washed the saints feet," 6) has relieved the afflicted, and 7) has "diligently followed very good work." Otherwise, let them starve. "But the younger widows refuse [to help]: for ... they will marry; having damnation." Besides the young widows are always idle tattlers -- "busybodies, spreading things which they ought not." He adds that "some are already turned aside after Satan." - 1 Timothy5:9-15Jesus will "cast her [Jezebel] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her." - Revelation 2:22The "great whore" corrupted the earth with her fornication. - Revelation 19:2

It is amazing how man can spend so much time micro analyzing every word and phrase in the book. A belief in God is based on the Holy Spirit coming onto you. The bible is... a guide for us to follow in order to stay in that very norrow path that will lead us into salvation. Then again it's not what's in the bible but rather what's in your heart (The Holy Spirit) that can help you better understand the book. You come into this world empty handed, naked, and so you shall depart. But while you are here, the book is your "Owner's Manual". Instead of trying to find faults in it, look for the multitude of good that's in it that will nurish your soul.

This is an absurd argument. The blogger and those who agree with him have clearly taken Biblical and Qur'anic scripture out of historical and cultural context, given that, for the Bible at least, many of the quotes are from letters written to specific churches with specific problems, not quotes from Jesus giving directions to all people. It is obvious that none of these people has read the Bible or Qur'an in its entirety or with any concept of context.

People will believe what they want to believe, and quoting random verses one way or the other hardly supports either belief.

"The blogger and those who agree with him have clearly taken Biblical and Qur'anic scripture out of historical and cultural context, given that, for the Bible at least, many of the quotes are from letters written to specific churches with specific problems, not quotes from Jesus giving directions to all people. It is obvious that none of these people has read the Bible or Qur'an in its entirety or with any concept of context."

I have, from cover to cover, numerous times, numerous editions from the KJV to the NIV (including "The Message"). I agree with the statements that there ar horrible things in the Bible. For you to make a comment along the lines of "This is absurd" is your own attempt to rationalise the cruelty, injustice and sexism demonstrated within both books.

And to the rest of your comment... A lot of people DO take the Bible (or the Qu'Ran) literally and are causing a LOT of problems for humanity as a whole. People die every day because of fighting among factions, hatred toward those who do not agree with their literal interpretation of their respective books, among other things.

You might say "Out of context" all you like... But the stuff is in there, and the verses and quotes stand for themselves. There isn't any other context that they can be taken in.

"The blogger and those who agree with him have clearly taken Biblical and Qur'anic scripture out of historical and cultural context,"

The historical context argument is not available in fact to Muslims, since the Koran is the eternal word of God and true and valid for always. And the prophet is the perfect man who muslims should replicate.

It seems obvious that there is much ignorance on this blog. Choosing a verse from Leviticus, the 3rd book in the Bible, (which is an excellent book, containing the covenant God had with the people of Isreal after he rescued them from Egypt), and running with it is #1 somewhat ignorant and #2 dangerous if you are a Christian. As a Christian, it should be known that when Christ came as the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind, men and women, a new covenant was created for those who believed in him. Actually, even before the new covenant, it is stated in Proverbs 31:10 A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. and 31:25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come. and 31:28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her. 31:27She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. It is pretty obvious by this section, if you would only read on, that women are considered valueable. You just have to have the patience to read and do it without the intention of critisism. In the New testament the Gospels quote Jesus and referring to men and women both as his brothers and sisters not just men. God's word states in Acts 2:18 " Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy." Please people, I encourage you to please thoroughly read the word before making such an assumption. The best way to research is to search for the best possible information, not information that is going to help you prove your point.

The Bible CANNOT be read apart from its context. That's not to say that nothing in it is applicable, because frankly the whole 'Do not oppress aliens (as in people of other lands, not the little green men), and 'be nice to orphans and widows' bits are pretty good.

But Christianity runs into awful trouble when it tries to be completely literal. For example, God is described as a Rock, a Shield, a Father, a mother giving birth...if God exists then He/She is beyond any of these things, but metaphors help us know what God is LIKE.

I don't know about the Quran, whether it's meant to be interpreted contextually or not. But it's a religious text allowing men to (lightly!) beat their wives, and seems a mishmash of Christianity, Judaism and Arabian paganism (complete with Allah, the moon god, repackaged for a new century) so I'm not big on it.

I could go into the supposed 'women are inferior' Bible passages here but frankly, you'd be bored, and I don't know how to make Greek and Hebrew letters in this little box, which it would really require.

Regardless, I tend to take the fact that women in the Bible have been:- judges- prophets- church leaders- deacons- patrons- teachers- businesswomenall in the days before reliable contraception as a pretty good sign really.

Plus, you know, "There is no Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free: we are all one in Christ Jesus" and "be characterised by love for one another" are pretty good sentiments to have too.

And what can I say? I'm pretty keen on Jesus, and I believe what He said about Himself.

Don't you love all the hoops that these people have to jump through to rectify the inhuman cruelty of their religions?

That lie that they love to spread about women having it so bad before thier religions came along and saved women from being human is too absurd for words. Women were scholars and teachers and business owners and queens who ruled in their own right before greedy Jews came along and put a price on their head. They were making a profit off selling women, and their women saw other women with gold and jewels and complete freedom and they started to protest, that is when the Jews got together and invented God to put women back in their place, on the auction block, striped of all jewels and silk of course because they could make a profit from selling that too. Pagan women were stoned in the streets for wearing braids in their hair and jewels and silk that was to terrorize the Jewish women from ever asking for anything. It worked so well that the Christians and Muslims seeing the Jews had complete ruthless domination over their women, they copied it.

Religion is power and power corrupts and there is no more absolute power than a God to do all your dirty work. No matter what hoops the jump through to try to clean it up, the fact is that their religions have been around for over 2000 years and are complete and utter failures the world is worse off because of religion, women have paid the highest price for that failure

and only idiots repeat the same mistake over and over hoping for a different outcome, so that makes anyone who follows those religions beyond stupid! They will NEVER learn, if they didn't learn in 2000 years what hope is there?

I like it when offended muslims cry "out of context" whenever an unsavoury part of their "revealed" text is highlighted. And they invariably fail to tell us what exactly is the context. The Qur'an is supposedly the literal word of their allah, it has no context. In fact, the Qur'an as compiled and in use today is not even arranged in chronological sequence, it is arranged from big surah to small. To makes things worse, their allah had introduced the concept of abrogation, meaning later verses will override the earlier contradictory ones. Making sense of the resultant mess is a headache in itself.

Yeah, YOU can always take a couple of sentences from any reading or teaching and interpret it the way YOU want it to look like? But will YOU take the time to find out the the overall message from the whole passage on translate the NT from it's orginal language (greek) which will give you a whole different meaning to the word "submit" as I even thought it meant? Apparently not for all you that have judged the Bible. You see, I became a Christian in my mid 20's and this topic on women was important to me as well. I was not about to worship a God that didn't value women. But I assure you He does. And I can support it from the very same Bible you are against.

Christ came to serve the world; the meek, the poor, the outcasts, not to judge the world. Unfortunately, many churches do not exemplify Jesus, and I'm sorry for that. Humans are all sinful; Christians or non...we're not Christ. He came in complete humility to love on children, women, and men of all cultures and races. Why do you think the jewish authorities wanted to kill one of their own? He was offering life not to just the jews, but to everyone including the jews' enemies (Romans). It was this grace and mercy that Jesus showed that led even a roman soldier (at Christ's death) to believe in Jesus. For after putting our Lord on the cross, Jesus prayed to God, "Forgive them for they do not know what they are doing". Does this sound like a God that would diminish the value of a woman?

And what Discipula wrote about the Bible, is absolutely accurate. But please challenge us, not as a fight, but we want the truth as well.

This is all quite fascinating. Interesting to watch people quoting Bible verses for a particular concept and then others say, no, you've got it wrong, and they quote a different Bible verse to the contrary. Then the first accuses the second of taking things out of context and the second responds that it is actually the first who is taking things out of context. Apparently what is completely disregarded as conceivable is what the SAB spends much time and space pointing out: that the Bible is contradictory. And contains some outlandish maybe even ridiculous stuff. Go ahead and believe, but refusing to acknowledge the contradictions, or explaining them away by saying a contradiction is created only by failing to read "in context" seems counterproductive. At the very least, how is one supposed to know what the right "context" is?

"Say no to Christ" might want to read the whole bible instead of taking things completely out of context. Jesus was very compassionate and gave respect to women throughout the whole new testament. When Paul said for women to submit to women at Corinth, it was b/c most of the women were wearing the pants in the family and weren't respecting the men. In the NT it also says, for men to love and respect their wives as Christ did to the church. Jesus considered His followers friends = equals. He did not come to judge, but to love and be judged by everyone else.

Sounds like you probably had a bad history with Christians or your family who were Christians, and for that I'm sorry. But please don't take that hatred out on the God that does love you. And I would read the Bible in it's entirety next time. In everything, we can take what we want from it out of context.

Yes - god honors women, that is why there are so many of them in the leadership of every church. Give me a break people, most religions oppress women and the women of those religions are often the biggest apologists of their own oppression.

Of course the men don't need to worry about it because they are the ones doing the oppressing as planned.

BTW - there is no CONTEXT in the bible. It is either the word of god as it stands, or it is meaningless! You can read what says. When you start discussing 'context' you are really just trying to justify how terrible it is.

It is complete NONSENSE people, wake up! The year is 2011, religion has been wrong about EVERYTHING throughout history. Science trumps it over and over. The churches fight, kill people for arguing with them, and then eventually capitulate after doing tremendous damage.

Religion is a complete crock and only those who are willing to completely suspend the evidence in front of their eyes, and also afraid to face life without an horribly cruel invisible friend/parent/overlord can 'believe' it.

If you can't use specific quotes from your holy texts (whichever one you adhere to) to advance an argument or idea or position -- and you tell others simply ignore the "man behind the curtain", just find the general message contained therein -- then all you have is "opinion" about what a flawed and ambiguous text confusedly presents in messages to small, individuated groups or audiences. Thus, you are not demonstrating anything real or rational, nor ever moderately intelligent. Face it, you believers are just basing your take on reality on gibberish that you choose to believe. Is Marvel Comics proof that Spider Man exists?

Paganism does have a fall, called pandora's box. A woman is blamed for this.

I can tell that the biblical writers were wrought on stamping out females and the acknowledgment of the female half of God. It was the priesthood who mostly wrote this. The Hebrew Goddess shows this. All the Israelites were, were a tribe break away from the Canaanites anyway.

I know this is years late, but you don't seem to understand the roles in Islaam.

The man's obligation is to take care of the women in his family (wife, daughters, mother, sisters, etc), including financially. His money is basically all of the family's money. A woman's money is completely her own - she is under no obligation to spend it on others (except for the charity aspect). If the man does NOT spend on his family, then he is being sinful.

So if the man has the responsibility to take care of the women in his family, it makes sense that he inherits more money with which to take care of them.

the woman in Islam has no financial obligations, this is why the share of women is half the man from the inheritance.. example, mariage costs are to be covered only by the man, the living expenses of the family.etc.

I love this sight! I am a christian and believe in a Loving Good God. I believe the Bible was written by man and thus (proves im a Christian I use the word 'thus' ha ha) God is seen in scriptures through Man's perspective. I believe weve gotten a lot of it wrong over the years, and some of it we are willing to back track on Like : polygamy, slavery, and womens rights. I am excited, because I believe we are moving in to a time where christians as a whole will start admitting the angry murdering God of the OT is a misconception. Hell, I don't believe that anymore so thats a positive. Anyways, I appreciate your website and your pointing out of the hypocricy of the church. I believe is helping us all to inevitably larger understanding of the truth.Yea, thanks.

I don't mean to be rude, but all the believer comments show how bad believer thinking is. And, there are always the "context" nuts. What context exactly are they talking about? Reading the "word of god" isn't enough? I have to send my mind back in time? I don't think so. The words speak for themselves and provide context. It's just more mindless believer hand-waving nonsense to distract from the real problems in the holy babble.

DONT WASTE YOUR TIME, THERE IS ONLE ONE TRUTH.. GUIDANCE IS ONLY IN THE HANDS OF THE CREATURE.

YOU WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM AND WOMEN IS ISLAM, THEN VISIT A MOSQUE AND ASK FOR THEIR SHEIKH AND TELL HIM TO SHOW YOU THE EVIDENCE TOWARDS EVERYTHING HE TELLS YOU, BUT FIRST UNDERSTAND WHAT ISLAM MEANS.

For those complaining about how the holy books should stand on its own and not have context, you're being silly.

You have to realize these books were written a long time where societies, laws, and cultures were different from ours. To simply ignore that and see it through Western and individualistic lens, you're not going to get far. Not only to mention translations as well, since there are words in Hebrew/Greek that cannot be easily translated to English.

To take the holy scriptures at face value and throw a fit when people call you out is embarrassing and lazy thinking. And this is coming from someone who is non-religious.

Steve, your comment to Heather is an excellent example of the flawed abilities of the skeptic. (Or should I accuse you of wilfullness, deliberately misinterpreting Heather's post?)

Heather is clearly defending those who say the bible must be read in context. One must understand the culture, history, etc, of the writer and the people to/for whom they wrote the scriptures.

When she wrote "To take the holy scriptures at face value and throw a fit when people call you out", she was referring to the skeptics who read a verse here and there in isolation, without making an effort to understand the context. She was disagreeing with you, NOT agreeing with you!

She also wrote that she gives her view as one who is non-religious, so she is not claiming to believe, nor pretending to believe - as you wrongly infer in your response to her.

This is the intellectual dishonesty of the skeptic, as displayed so emminently by you here, that makes it pointless to debate the bible. I could give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that it is stupidity, lack of intelligence on your part, that caused you to misinterpret Heather's post, but I'm willing to bet that the truth is that you wilfully misinterpreted her post, deliberately inferring a meaning which is simply not there in order to serve your purpose, which is to mock.

The bible is right when it talks of people like you:

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they DELIBERATELY forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. [2 Peter 3:3-5]

In the same way, you DELIBERATELY ACT DUMB when it comes to understanding the meaning of scripture, and then you accuse God/Jesus/The bible/Christians of wrongdoing based on your own wilfull stupidity.

No point for me to hang around here arguing any topics with you, as it would be a waste of time:

Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. [2 Timothy 2:23]