Comments on: French Government Censors Report on Electric Carshttp://www.hybridcars.com/french-government-censors-report-electric-cars-25365/
Auto alternatives for the 21st centuryMon, 03 Dec 2012 19:24:39 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=3.9.2By: French Engineerhttp://www.hybridcars.com/french-government-censors-report-electric-cars-25365/#comment-15801
Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:04:48 +0000http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4416#comment-15801By the way, no offence, it is one of the point for which the report was an eye opener for me.
I work in a tangentially related field, albeit more the automotive than the chemical and battery side, and have access to good sources. And I found the report very informative and well done. A must-read, keeping in mind the premises of the exercise: a 360° picture of the today technology and its signification for the consumer and the government policy in 2030.
]]>By: French Engineerhttp://www.hybridcars.com/french-government-censors-report-electric-cars-25365/#comment-15800
Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:58:29 +0000http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4416#comment-15800TO Zero X OWner: the whole reasoning about recharging infrastructure for pure BEV is around p. 78 of the report. see the link in the article.

Sounds quite convincing to me. Executive summary: standard electric plugs give 3kW, do the maths for the time you have to stands still waiting for recharging.
Interestingly, I learned (p.11) that the PSA and Renault started a mini infrastructure of charging point in the public space in the 1995, at the times where they were the majors (only?) producers of BEV. They cut the loss some years ago after PSA sold 10.000 cars, and Renault a bit less.

So I believe they paid the learning price, and you should not discard their opinion so hastily.

]]>By: Zero X Ownerhttp://www.hybridcars.com/french-government-censors-report-electric-cars-25365/#comment-15799
Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:11:01 +0000http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4416#comment-15799Of course, that massive infrastructure has already existed for a century. We access it through electrical outlets, of which there are already many, many more than gasoline stations. Different outlet types are no problem, with a cheap adapter, already easily available.
]]>By: APhttp://www.hybridcars.com/french-government-censors-report-electric-cars-25365/#comment-15798
Sat, 20 Dec 2008 02:40:55 +0000http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4416#comment-15798It’s really good to see the rational comments above. I also thought that if any country could justify electric cars, it would be France (80% nuclear-generated electricity, high fuel taxes, high congestion). You would think that there, the extra initial cost of the vehicle could be justified in future fuel savings by the customer.

France was smart to do a study like this to evaluate the time-frame where the electric car market could be self-sustaining. However, the suppression of the information points out the danger of governments choosing technologies. The fact that they don’t want to know the answer after asking the question is reminiscent of Bush’s treatment of global warming.

Governmental policy needs to be results-based, not politically-based or picking winners and losers in the technology wars. While many people want to jump to the final answer immediately, it makes more sense to optimize what we have now. In America, we seem to be fixated on the powertrain, but the whole vehicle needs to be treated to make it low-mass, low drag, low rolling resistance, but still functional. A little here and a little there adds up. Why just have aero-kits on hybrids? Sell mileage specials without conventional powertrains too.

Since the battery is still the weak point in the system (too heavy and too large for the energy stored) continued hybrid development is probably the right way to encourage the necessary improvements, while avoiding pushing half-baked technology onto the market through an EV mandate. This way, you get more production-geared urgency (rather than the research lab pace), without causing another no-win situation like the EV1.

I just read the report, and it is actually quite accurate. As always, the press is not fair in extracting some of the parts and citing them in inappropriate context, but we are used to it. I also dislike the fact that the President would *arbitrarily* conceal a repport he himself ordered just because the conclusion does not fit is understanding of the situation (which is quite poor). I can’t honestly believe this repport to be biased towards fuel powered vehicle industry since the panel of reviewers and experts were chosen by *the government itself*. I would expect them to be biased towards electric vehicles, if at all.

As for the repport itself, it points out some flaws of the actual electric car technology (meaning the technology that is already in place and ready to be mass developped and marketed).
The flaws are :
- relative inefficiency of actual batterie technology and the need to shift to lithium based batteries to achieve reasonable performances.
- the need of a *strong politic will* to develop electric vehicles (both to educate people and to go against the regular car industry).
- the need of a vast country or continental wide infrastructure to allow someone to charge his electric car wherever he goes. You certainly do not want to switch car at a border because the country you are going to does not have any electric car infrastructure right ? It might not be seen as a problem for big countries like the US, but in many small European countries (Belgium, Netherland, …) in a one hour drive, you are actually out of your country !.

So in itself, the repport is not against the technology of electric car per se, but warns that if things stay as they are and the governents just wait for the electric car to becomes the default, then nothing will change. It also points out that to ease the transition, hybrid cars may be a possible solution. That’s it.

I’m French and think of myself as environment-friendly (I don’t even own a car).
I would really be glad if electric car could be massively adopted. However, I only want this to be so IF this is the right technology, and the pros and cons have been fairly discussed. Even if you see a critical report or objections to your point of view, the right way to deal with them is to argue against with facts, not conceal them from the public. I’m even less keen to endorse what our President did knowing is past behaviours and knowing that he has personal interests in the matter.
Let us not repeat the error of ethanol (how is it for a green vehicle which shifts the energy crisis to the food crisis ?). Any contribution is useful to a discussion so that the right solution is adopted. If we plan to develop electric vehicles as a standard, we must do it right the first time.

]]>By: Roland Möslhttp://www.hybridcars.com/french-government-censors-report-electric-cars-25365/#comment-15796
Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:17:26 +0000http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4416#comment-15796I have tested the Cleanova II myself on the EVER Monaco end of March 2007.

The car ist listed with a norm consume of
14,4 kWh/100km city traffic
19,6 kWh/100km outside town

In city traffic, the energy efficiency is more than 4 times better than the natural gas version

Natural gas version: 8,3 kg natural gas/100km
Cleanova II: only 1,9 kg natural gas/100km when the natural gas is converted to electric power in a CCPP with 58% efficiency.

So this supressed “report” contains only unresponsible nonsens.

]]>By: Tim Griffettshttp://www.hybridcars.com/french-government-censors-report-electric-cars-25365/#comment-15795
Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:14:20 +0000http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4416#comment-15795In all of history nothing has ever changed like the flip of a switch, this too will require a transition from one form to another with hybrid and crossover models to facilitate the transition. With transition technology explored, improved, and expanded to allow the economy to absorb the movement from one form to the next. So too the consumer must experience a smooth transfer to alternative transportation. Europe is more likely to facilitate this change with their superior mass transit systems, and geographically smaller distances between destinations commonly traversed by the consumer.
Personally I think the hybrid is the answer as this incorporates electric and potentially alternative fuels like hydrogen and/or Ethanol engines. Overall there will be an impact on the size, speed, and construction of these vehicles to improve their performance. Once people find the balance in cost and confidence in the product it will happen. I still feel surprised to hear people outraged or upset to hear that government is withholding or suppressing information for what ever reason. Do you honestly expect them to tell everything, share every finding? Technology being what it is, information being the key to power, I am little surprised that any government chooses to sensor information it has knowledge of. It is one thing to remain silent and be thought foolish and another to speak and be proven a fool. I personally feel it is an act of wisdom to endorse change knowing that the current fossil fuel supply will eventually run out or become unrealistic for consumer use, even restricted to commercial application when the supply becomes critical. What legacy are we leaving for the future generations unless we attempt to work on alternatives. I for one would hate to see the return to pre-industrial society because of short sighted, and a self centered generation of consumers.
]]>By: Roland Möslhttp://www.hybridcars.com/french-government-censors-report-electric-cars-25365/#comment-15794
Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:50:45 +0000http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4416#comment-15794What a report?

It’s the same discussion again and again with people not informed about plug-in hybrid and modern battery technology.

I discuss often with this stuck in the mud people. I know every nonsens argument, they bring again and again.

I’m not against EVs in any way, but it’s a hard sell in tough economic times when you ask people to buy a inferior product. If gasoline was $5/gallon again , it’d be absolutely worth it. Unfortunately at the current time it’s not that way.

France I believe is THE BEST candidate for a EV powered economy and highway system. They have a very high proportion of nuclear powerplants to everything else. This would put them ahead of everyone else, it’d be much harder to do something on the wide scale in the US.

]]>By: dirkalanhttp://www.hybridcars.com/french-government-censors-report-electric-cars-25365/#comment-15792
Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:07:12 +0000http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4416#comment-15792they should develope an all electric car for in town use. then a small trailer with a gas electric generator for the few times long distance is needed. this generic trailer could power different brands of cars. could be shared between a number of people. could be rented.
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