t. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com. the best of "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. we will call it a political earthquake. an unraveling of the system or a revolution. 2016 changed the face of american politics forever. there was the nationalist ascension of donald trump, the collapse of the clinton dynasty, the reshaping of the democratic party. even the growing call for a third party solution represented most effectively by libertarian gary johnson. all these elements will rewrite

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the political narrative for years to come. over the past months, all four leaders, appeared at town halls and college samplings. >> you look at it inside the beltway. i'm not an inside the beltway guy. i am an outside the beltway guy. >> the people that vote on taxes are inside the bell wtway. >> i would never take any cards off the table. i'm not going to take it off the table. >> you might use it in europe? >> no. >> there's always theseames you can play. if somebody could have assassinated hitler before he took over germany, would that have been a good thing? >> name a foreign leader you respect. >> i'm having an aleppo moment in the former president of mexico. >> i'm giving you the whole world. >> i know. >> joining me john and april and jeremy.

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we begin tonight with donald trump. the country's next leader made waves in march, back then, when he told me he believed women who get abortions should face some form of punishment. the president-elect eventually walked that back. there's a new phrase this year, walked it back, after facing criticism from the left and right. here is the following exchange, a major news focus for the remainder of the year. here is that moment from march's "hardball" town hall. should the woman be punished? this is not something you can dodge. abortion is a crime or a murder, you have to deal with it under the law. should abortion be punished? >> people in certain parts of the republican party and conservative republicans would say yes, they should be punished. >> how about you? >> i would say it's a very serious problem. it's a problem that we have to decide on. it's very hard -- >> you are for banning it. >> are you going to say put them in jail? >> i'm asking you. you say you want to ban it.

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>> i am against -- i am pro life. >> how do you ban abortion? >> you know, you go back to a position like they had where people will perhaps go to illegal places. >> yeah. >> you have to ban it. >> do you believe -- do you believe in punishment for abortion? >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> fyeah. >> you take positions. >> i do. it's a very complicated position. >> april? >> that was a major moment during this campaign season. but he got over it. it goes back to the issue. it still rings so vivid and so harsh hearing him say that. it's a crime. he basically said it was a crime. now what happens is, if he goes back and if they deal with that in 2017 at all, you know, it goes into, should women be put

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in jail? should there be legal ramificati ramifications, punishment? that's a tough thing. there are time lines from what time to what time you are allowed to have an abortion. this is a tough issue. it goes down the road he tried to step around about women and how women are viewed. it's a tough question. >> he had no question saying the male involved in a pregnancy, if you have an abortion, should not be punished. he had a quick answer on that. >> he di two things here. this whole episode is indicative how he ran his campaign and is likely to run the presidency. that's that he makes up a significant portion of it as he goes along. you could tell when he was responding to you that he hadn't thought this out. as he thought through it, a few more clicks down the logical road, yeah, finally when you pushed him, yes, there must be some form of punishment. he hadn't thought about it. he didn't anticipate oractor in what the ram ififications it

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would be. that is a position that not even the hardest of the hard line abortion opponents would support. putting a woman -- punishing a woman for getting an abortion? they actually repudiated that after he said it. the other thing is -- this speaks to -- >> what do you -- here is my pun hunch. i think he was projecting what he thought would be the logical implication of people who believe that you are killing human life. >> yes. >> not only killing a form of human life, but -- >> he was saying i'm pro life. if you are pro life, you believe we should make abortions illegal. if you make it illegal, there's got to be some penalty for somebody. >> or else what does it mean? >> here is the key. none of this matters in the election. >> tell me why. >> two reasons. you have the conservative side. they want to make sure they can trust donald trump. he did two things and that's all he had to do. he put out his list who he will nominate to the supreme court. he made mike pence his vp.

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that checked the two boxes that he had to conservatives. he didn't have to go down other paths on this. that let him become the anti-washington candidate. he didn't have to become the pro life candidate. >> i think -- i agree with you. but you forgot the third box, abortion. that's one of the theme pieces. pro life for the republican party. he had to fall under that banner that he was pro life. >> he was mimicking what they believe. >> at one point -- he might have been mimicking, but there was a question. and he answered that question in one of the harshest ways possible for the republican party. >> but who are you going to vote for on abortion if you weren't going to vote for donald trump? hillary clinton? >> there was a concern in the leadership if he fell under the banner of certain things, that's when he came out and said that. >> he said i'm pro life. then he did those other things. he checked the boxes. they were comfortable that compared to hillary clinton,

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who -- >> i don't think they were that comfortable. he went very far on that. >> john, you probably know this. you talk to social conservatives in the movement about a turning point in the campaign, it was when he stood on stage during the third debate and made the very vivid description of -- >> partial birth abortion. >> and there are conservatives i spoke with who said, that was it for me. i have never heard a candidate describe it in that graphic -- >> he cleaned it up after carly fiorina made the mistake she did. that's when it became a big issue. >> i still don't -- >> i think he managed to do it even with this odd statement he gave to me. during the town hall in march, the same town hall, donald trump refused to take off the table using nuclear weapons in the middle east or using nuclear weapons in europe. let's watch him. i don't want to talk about nuclear weapons.

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>> the question was asked. we're talking about nato which i say is obsolete. >> you got hooked into something you shouldn't talk about. >> some day maybe. >> when? maybe? >> of course. i was against iraq. i would be the last one to use nuclear weapons. that's the end of the ball game. >> can you tell the middle east we're not using nuclear weapon snz. >> i will not take it off the table. >> you might use it in europe? >> no. i don't think so. >> just say it. >> i am not taking cards off the table. >> most of the people there were laughing because of the idea, in grn bay, wisconsin, because the peleop realize you don't talk about blowing up france or germany. europe is a small place. you don't drop one bomb one place and not bomb everywhere. >> this is a problem that we were just getting at with that abortion answer is that he mimics, he says what he thinks people believe, people whom he is trying to reach. he is trying to reach conservatives, trying to reach hawks who want to hear he is

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taking a hard line on nuclear weapons. he will say what he thinks they believe because he doesn't fully understand it. because he doesn't fully understands, he trips himself up. >> i thought he used the phrase i'm not taking anything off the table as a line the hawks use notice middle east. we might bomb iran, i'm not taking anything off the table. it's a line of coverage if you want to appeal to the right. >> here is the problem we have. we're trying to think of donald trump as a traditional candidate. we try to look at his answers and say why did he say that? this is the guy that's the art of the deal. the first thing you learn is you never show your cards, never take anything off the table. >> we type down what he says and -- >> you think he thought this answer out ahead of time? >> do we write down what he says or not? >> let me tell you what i think about donald trump. what i believe is that he doesn't know what he doesn't know. okay? that's what i believe about donald trump. that showed him early on being a very novice in this political game. he is a businessman and let's give him that. he's a shrewd businessman. he has to learn governance and

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intelligence. that's a piece he has to learn. he's not there. >> people didn't care. they really don't. they didn't care if he knew every answer. they knew when he made mistakes, that made him authentic and more believable that he will change washington. >> the guy who starts at the post office and the fastest sorter. he is flipping them like this, behind his back, between his legs. he is unbelievable. at lunchtime, the postmaster said you are the fastest sorter. the kid said, wait until i learn how to read. you can do things fast but you start screwing things up, you don't -- you have to know certain things. right? don't you have to know smingthi? >> we want him -- he is supposed to. he will be the leader of the free world. intelligence is key. >> this is a guy -- believe me, he has intelligence. >> i'm talking about intelligence -- national security -- no, no, no, national

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security. global security. it's not just about business. and that's a concern. >> it is. this is a guy -- >> it's not. it's about the allies and the adversaries and how we handle them. >> we must all be shocked he won. >> i am. >> how did he overcome all these incredible odds? >> people wanted something new. >> this is my biggest fear. how do you avoid war? things i worry about are wars. one thing i worry about. a lot of people get killed. they are going. it's over. it's final. >> it is. >> we made mistakes in past history. next thing you know, we're in war in korea because chinese and north koreans and they didn't say we're going to defend it. same thing with iraq in the first gulf war. that's a border issue. we're not really involved. what do you know? all of a sudden we're fighting a war we didn't think we had to

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cause we didn't tell people. i want a president to tell the people, you know what, we will fight for lithuania. it may sound odd. if nato gets attacked, we have a problem. it may be war. don't go grabbing some of the baltic states. this s problem. presidents have to be clear to our rivals -- >> right. >> what not to do. or else we get into trouble. >> part of the -- >> people die. >> there's two things there. one is trump doesn't know what the trip wires are, because he is not familiar with geo politics. he is relying on his generals to do that. that's i think the second point here is that the -- part of the reason he surrounded himself with so many generals is the human cost you were talking about. he wants people around him who understand the finality, the gravity of going into war. people who -- with general kelly, his homeland security chief, who lost a son in combat, this is very important to him. and i think -- >> good news. >> that is. but o the other hand.

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you e talking about a guy here who flies off the handle and gets into twitter fights with people. >> the moon does not bark at the dog. he is now the moon. the moon does not bark at the dog. he does that a lot. i'm with everyone. i want to see the next president succeed. but he has a big learning curve. >> the moon does not bark at the dog. >> you like that? >> it's going to be with me when i go to bed tonight. john, april -- i'm serious. april and jeremy staying with us. coming up, what hillary clinton told me about assassinating foreign leaders. this is fascinating. later the cast of the new movie, "hidden figures." they're going to talk about this movie about three african-american mathematicians who worked behind the scenes to get the american space program into orbit. this is "hardball," the place for politics. this one is from channel islands national park. coronado. saguaro. you'll see there's one that's an eagle.

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welcome back to "hardball." while the 2016 campaign was grilling, hillary clinton faced head winds when it came to authorizing the war with iraq. i had the chance to question her on the danger of regime change as an instrument of forgn policy. in that discussion, we spoke about whether the assassination of foreign despo is ever a legitimate way for this country to instill change abroad. what do you think quickly of the history of the united states in your lifetime of knocking off leaders? who have i missed? we have been doing this for a long time. that's why i'm skeptical. it changed the history of other countries. should we be doing that kind of thing? >> in the vast majority of

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cases, the answer is no. but there's always these historical games you can play. if somebody could have assassinated hitler before he took over germany, would that have been a good thing or not? you cannot paint with a broad brush. >> we're back with the round table. that blew me away. i thought she would give me a 1960s answer, which i grew up with, saying, we should not have assassination in our tool kit. no, she said, what about hitler? her argument, we have to be ready to do this. i was amazed by that. you are shaking your head. >> i'm amazed by it, too. she was the dove. she was supposed to be about diplomacy. she wanted to show that hard line, that hard stand. you know, the question is -- she may be right. if hitler was taken out -- >> that wasn't the question. >> we are not supposed to -- by law, we are not supposed to take out any other foreign leader. i think mostly, when it came to hitler -- >> i didn't bring up hitler. >> she brought up hitler.

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the issue -- hillary clinton brought up hitler. the issue is i think she wanted to show she could take a hard line. she could be a hawk and not -- >> was it because ofer gender? >> and the fact that she was the woman diplomacy around the world. >> people like me think of her as a hawk. >> i saw her as a woman of diplomacy. >> a hawk as far as the democrats go. there were a lot of things that she believed in that were more in line with the republicans running in the primary in terms of foreign policy than the democratic party platform. what's the joke, if you bring up hitler, you are losing the argument? >> i think it's a safe thing never to do. >> you criticize that donald trump doesn't have an answer for things like this. you ask her -- her answer was maybe. her answer was, no, oh, but here is where we could, you don't know. >> the difference is -- >> she's a former secretary of state. >> exactly. she was the former setting of state. she dealt with -- >> was her answer yes or no?

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>> are we for regime change? and i went through libya with her -- >> she said maybe. >> she didn't -- >> for certain people. >> regime change for something trump ran against. >> something she pursued as secretary of state, libya. >> syria. we got involved somehow with the do downfall of mubarak. that wasn't a smart move. we don't rule the world. >> there was a lot of split decision on that. there's a lot of belief we made mistakes in getting rid of people that turned out that their enemies were worse than the enemies we thought we had. >> everybody warned us after assad -- there a question mark -- it will be worse. sg >> during those times, i think social media played in the immediacy when we had to go in to see some of the leaders that we had allied with at one time, we saw the world community, particularly communities in those countries, rise up against their leaders. then they looked to us, this

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nation, to say, what are you going to do? how are you going to help us? that was the problem. >> in our interview, secretary clinton spoke about how she stacks up against more natural politicians like her husband when it comes to actually campaigning. this is telling here. >> i enjoy it. but i'm not deluding myself. i'm not speaking in poetry. i'm not bringing people to fever pitches of incredible admiration. but every time i have had a job, i do it well. i do it in my own way. i produce results for people. when i ran for the senate, you know that, you covered that. i ran for the senate. my gosh, she can't win. i won. i'm somebody who believes, okay, you have a job to do, you want to help people, you want to produce results. maybe that is more governing in pros than campaigning in poetry. but that's what i want to do as president. >> she's making a reference to mario cuomo who said government

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is prose but campaigning is poetry. >> yes, one of the most eloquent men of his generation. >> what do you think she was telling us then? that was very telling. she was saying, i'm not the babe ruth of public campaigning. i'm more of a policy person. >> this is the great paradox that the people who hoped hillary clinton would win found so frustrating. on the one hand, she tried to be herself. she let her rougher edges show. but at the same time, she ran a campaign that was completely at odds with that. focus grouping 85 different slogans. debating over every last sentence in a speech and every last policy position she was going to take being endlessly litigated by her strategists. so there was something that while she said she was being authentic, she really wasn't at all. >> i have the funny feeling -- i don't know -- i remember watching her rise to power. i remember watching her at the

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regency hotel in '91 when she and bill clinton presented themselves in new york. it was free. it was breakfast. you could go. it wasn't about money. i went there and i thought, she gave the first speech, bill gave the second. she was -- they were running two for the price of one. she had an ambition that she was going to rise up, maybe not to presidency, but maybe all this came to her. but she was never somebody that went out there and loved to shake hands and -- she wasn't bill. bill was like -- bill was easy to take because he had no moral pretensions. he liked hamburgers and women and that was it. >> my goodness. >> i'm sorry. that was -- >> he liked people. he is gregarious. >> the last guy to leave the party. >> but i feel sorry for her. she had trouble connecting. where this was most pronounced is when president obama would be on stage with her. you would see just people looked like groupies who were going -- they would do anything for him. >> it's hard. how many great politicians --

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>> that's why i said i feel bad for her. >> mondale wasn't great. >> bill clinton -- let's say bill clinton, too. >> mitt romney wasn't great. it's hard to be a politician. >> bill clinton is a great -- hillary clinton knows, it's in her heart, she's not the politician. she basically admitted, i'm not gregarious. i am not my husband. >> don't you agree it hurt her? >> it hurt her. she's linked to one of the most successful politicians of modern time. the problem is, she is not her husband. she is not that person. >> look -- there's a good politician, we never thought she was, michelle. where did she come from? >> she speaks truth. she's real. >> she has this wonderful manner. i asked secretary clinton how she trusted polls after her surprise loss to bernie sanders in the michigan primary. in hindsight considering the general election polls predicted the wrong winner, her answer was telling. here she is. do you trust the polls anymore?

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>> no. honestly, i don't, chris. in large measure because i think pollsters are trying to do the best job they can. but it's very difficult to poll now. if you have only online information, that's been proven to be often unreliable. if you try to call landlines, you miss everybody with cell phones, if you call cell phones, you miss people often because think don't answer. i think it's very difficult now to predict the outcome of elections. somehow we're going to have to get better at it. people do rely on that information. >> that wasn't filtered. that was her talking like a regular person. she's talking about the mechanics of the business of running for office. something was real conversation. >> she was likeable then. >> that's what i'm saying. when you talk turkey with her, she's great. it's when she has to put on the show of politics she's not as good at the bs. up next, my interview with bernie sanders. gary johnson draws a blank when i ask him about a foreign leader

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he respects or heard of. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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with humira, remission is possible. here is what's happening. 19 states, including new york and california, will be using the minimum wage. the coast guard suspended search and rescue efforts for the small plane that vanished thursday night over lake erie with six people on board. it's now considered a recovery operation. it was headed from cleveland to

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ohio state university in columbus. now back to our program. welcome back to "hardball," in february of 2016, i interviewed bernie sanders on the college tour at the university of chicago. he made his case for a political revolution in this country. when i pressed him on how he could get his progressive platform through the u.s. congress if he were elected president, sanders put up a fight. let's watch. >> you are asking me how do i pay for it. >> i haven't asked that. how do you pass it through the senate? hodoou get 60 votes for any of this? >> we will pay for it on a tax -- >> is who will pass the tax? the senate will pass that? >> you and i look at the world differently. you look at it inside the beltway. i am not an inside the beltway guy. i am an outside the beltway guy. >> the people that vote on the taxes are inside the beltway.

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you always get the last word in this business. i was trying to ask him how do you win the coalition to get 60 votes? he wants to tax wall street a certainercentage for every stock trade to pay for student loan payouts. fine. how do you do it? >> this was one of the biggest and most indicting criticisms of bernie sanders' campaign is that it sounded like a lot of great ideas, but how are you going to get it done? ultimately, there's all this revisionist history going on now. what if bernie would have been the nominee. he could have beaten trump. who knows? i think it's a pretty damning thing to ask someone how are you going to plush what you are promising people you will and they don't have an answer. >> by the way, i don't know how bernie would have done it. >> jeremy is right. i remember i would go out in the street and poll grass-roots people. what do you think about bernie sanders. his ideas are great. how are we going to pay for free education?

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people were very concerned about having to pay more for this free item. >> free health. health care for everybody. >> they thought it was great. >> it was coming out of their pocket. >> we might end up with -- >> he kept adding everything. we will figure out -- we will get rid of the letter l from the alphabet. we will get somebody to pay for it. >> he got away with the word socialist, which i'm not sure -- it's my word. it may not be anybody's here. in europe it's fine. in europe, countries are like us, they're not as cowboy as we are. they say social democrats. that's the term in most of the political parties. they are not offended. they don't think it means communist. in europe they know socialists are the biggest rivals. >> you are right. it's indicative of how thirsty people were for change and they don't trust the democrats or the republicans. when someone says socialist, they kind of overlook and

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discount that bag agage. >> people were looking for some kind of magic fix. bernie sanders was welcomed, his voice was welcomed. even though he had not been a democrat. he came into the democratic party with something new. maybe it could have fixed. ultimately, he didn't win it. his words live on. >> you know, young people that want to -- my kids are like this. they love the '60s. anything tell tabout the '60s, they love. watch bernie. he is doing a teach in. he is older, but he would do -- like a guy talking up the administration building with a bull horn. making demands. he is like that. very insis tent, very demanding. clearcut. i'm right, you are wrong. it's very much -- your last thought? >> for him to be age he was, it's not about the age. itas abouthe message. >> iwas very youthful. the university of new hampshire where i sat down with libertarian candidate new mexico

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governor gary johnson. and his running made, former massachusetts governor william well. johnson was stumped when i asked one direct question. let's watch. who is your favorite foreign leader? >> who is my favorite? >> anywhere in the country. name one foreign leader that you respect and look up to. anybody. >> my was shimon peres. >> i'm talking about living. anywhere. any continent. canada, mexico, europe. asia, south america, name a foreign leader you respect. >> i'm having an aleppo moment in the former president of mexico. >> i'm giving you the whole world. anybody in the world you like. anybody. pinckney leader. >> the former president of mexico. >> which one? >> i'm having a brain -- >> name anybody. >> fox. >> who is your favorite leader? >> fox. he was terrific. >> any foreign leader. >> merkel. >> fine.

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>> jeremy? i gave him the world. >> you gave him a life line. you let him pick someone from the audience practically to give him the answer. this was like -- >> he had a phone call, too. >> he still -- >> he said, another aleppo. he was referring to the fact he didn't know aleppo in an earlier interview. he is running for president of the united states. head of the world. didn't ever think about the world long enough to think about, i've been looking at some of the leaders. he could have said merkel the first second. i know -- winston churchill -- he had nothing to say. >> nelson mandela even. >> don't you think bill well is thinking, how do i get off camera? >> here is amazing -- >> bill wasn't jumping in either. >> that might have won the race for donald trump. trump was struggling with some johnson voters who were anti-washington. >> that was not my intention.

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>> the more he was exposed made trump look better. some of the people gravitated. congratulations. you may be responsible for trump. >> i never got trump in the campaign. never got him again. i think i did get a shot from gary johnson, he is willing to go in the barrel. he is willing to get beaten up. he doesn't care. thank you. still ahead, the stars of the great new movie coming up movie "hidden figures." three african-american women, mathematicians who helped launch the american space program. a true story. actors will be here along with the director. what a star-studded lineup. you are watching "hardball," the place for politics. was built with passion... but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on

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we are coming back with the stars of the soon to be released

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movie "hidden figures." here is a clip from the film. >> you are a computer at nasa. that's heady stuff. >> it is. >> they let women handle that sort of -- that's not what i mean. >> what do you mean? >> i'm just surprised that something so taxing -- >> mr. johnson, quit talking right now. >> i don't mean no disrespect. >> i will have you know, i was the first negro female student at west virginia university graduate school. on any given day, i analyze levels for air displacement, friction and compute over 10,000 calculations by hand. so, yes, they let women do some things at nasa, mr. johnson, and

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it's not because we wear skirts. it's because we wear glasses. >> the stars behind this great movie are coming here next. it's going to be great to watch. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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what's the status on that computer? >> she's right behind you, mr. harrison. >> does she handle analytic geometry? >> absolutely. and she speaks.

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>> yes, sir, i do. >> which one? >> both. geometry and speaking. >> ruth, get me -- do you think you can find me the frame for that data using -- >> yes, sir. i prefer it over coordinates. >> welcome back. that was a scene from the film "hidden figures," the true story of three african-american mathematicians and the key role they played at nasa to launch the first american into orbit. it sets the struggle for equal rights against the backdrop of the space race recounting when even at nasa african-americans were segregated from their white counterparts. this say fil is a film about wo broke barriers in more ways than one. >> we all going to ride around this n this pile of junk. >> you are welcome to walk. >> or sit in the back of the bus.

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>> you have identification? >> we are on our way to work at nasa, sir. >> i had no idea they hired. >> quite a few women working in the space program. >> that's john glenn. >> what do you do in. >> calculate launch and landing. >> engineer. i'm proud to be working with you. >> how could you be up on these white men? >> it's equal. >> let me ask you, would you wish to be an engineer? >> i wouldn't have to. i would already be one. >> it's out in select theaters at christmastime, christmas day and a wider release on january 6. i'm joined by those people who made this movie come to life. including the stars of the film. the super stars. you all look very glamorous right now. in the movie you are dressed like bureaucrats, which is very interesting. the great kevin cois here and t

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director, thank you. i want to talk to you. you just dominate that movie. i have to say that. the scenes of putting up with jim crow and putting up with jim crow in a federal institution. what grabbed me in the beginning was the cop who stopped you guys. i love '57 chevys. we always love them. stops you. he has the usual color mentality going on, black/white thing going on. all of a sudden he realizes you are in the space program. his patriotism kicks in. >> i think that's the overall message of this story. when we put our differences aside as humans, that's when we're able to move the human race forward. because at the end of the day, we're all humans. you know, a mind doesn't have a

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color. when it comes to calculating numbers, i don't care what color you are. i don't care who you sleep with at night. can you find the math? >> i love the score when this person that she's playing is very smart. everybody knows the experience of having to go to the bathroom now. then she has the color -- she has to go -- it's like a bad dream. have i i have to go where there's a colored woman's bathroom. tell me about the music. >> the music was largely just led by -- >> it's called running? >> yes, sir. that song was just based on a story. when we got the script, okay, these women are living in the matrix of the 1960s where the physics and gravity for african-americans was much more heavier. it was twice as heavier on a women. having to run to the bathroom, which is not on the other side of the building but on the other side of the campus -- there were campus bikes. but for women, we forget as men,

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long skirts, long dresses. so they had to run rain or shy, 30 to 45 minutes to the other side of the campus to use the bathroom. >> high heels are a big part of this for some reason. maybe it's that -- women look great. but you are shooting the legs, the shoes. the shoes at one time get caught. you almost get killed. it's in the middle of a wind tunnel. >> yeah. >> you look great. the camera is looking at the legs, the shoes. you get stuck. the guy says, the shoe ain't worth it. there's when you are running to the bathroom, it's high heels. women in high heels. being african-american in a jim crow setting. wearing high heels. >> we did it all. just like we continuously do every day. what's so inspiring about this film and these women is that they did not allow those

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obstacles to deter them and step them from their dreams. yes, you know, we were dealing with racism. we were dealing with sexism. we were dealing with classism. but the great thing about when nasa and all the men and women put all those isms to bed and buried them all, that's when they achieved the extraordinary together. they all realized it at the end of the day, we all bleed the same color. >> you know, kevin, it's great to have you on. i think of you all the time. i will see this a lot of times, but i think i have seen "13 days," a million times. here you have a movie that's the same time period. '61, '62. it is '62. this movie includes the reality of american life much better. >> it seems like a lot of stories don't get told. they are in the pages of history. they don't come out. you can give some of that a pass because how many stories can you

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possibly tell if you look beneath the surface, you will find this story. the thing that i found disturbing was that if you are going to tell the original story of john glenn, not about the women who are working off to the side like we know, but if you tell that story of john glenn, there's a moment where he was going to go or wasn't going to go. it would be like telling a joke and maybe leaving out the punch line. it hung on the balance of a young woman who was going to have to do the math by hand. i don't know about you, but in great story telling, you don't leave out that bit. if we don't learn about the human computers they were called computers, i can see that story emerging going, i would have liked to know about that a long time ago. not knowing about that moment where he was saying, i ain't going unless i know, that should have been a part of what we knew about for a long time. >> he was a good guy in the movie, right? >> he was a good guy period. but i learned something about him that i didn't know. it made him that much more of an american hero to me, because he

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did something that was unpopular at the time. he put his life in the hands of this african-american woman. if her numbers didn't match up, he wasn't going to go. if her numbers matched up, of course, he went. >> he wanted to know where he was going to land. >> absolutely. >> key information. they have to get to it. but you were in "the help." >> i was. >> i remember that meal you cooked for the white lady. we are all going to remember that. this tastes interesting. you got from the jim crow thing a couple ways. >> jim crow is a very difficult time to immerse yourself in. but when you are doing a period film -- we have an agency as contemporary women that african-american women did not have in the jim crow era. there's something wonderful to be said about the solidarity that we felt on the set. very insulated. ted created a safe place for us

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to work and have fun. >> i like the way you looked up at the sign that says colored computers. they designate you by your ethnicity. let's look at another part of the movie. >> katherine, go find him over there. that colonel jim is a tall glass of water. >> that he is. tall, strong. >> i bet he is like that day and night. >> mary, it's sun. please have some shame. >> i will not. >> he is coming over. >> why would he be doing that. >> because mary is waiving at him. >> i'm not ready. >> so, colonel, i'm dorothy. that's mary. i believe you met her husband levi. >> yes, ma'am. >> this is katherine. she's not marrie