1) How many years have Russians/Ukrainians learn English in school? English is global so I guess there ought to be English classes even though it can be rudimentary. I reckon everyday's conversation in English wouldn't be much of a problem? In addition, education policy might have changed from time to time, so I am only asking in regards to the younger generation, like those age from 18 to 25.

2) How digitally connected are the women? I am referring to internet connection here. It's 21st century now, I suppose you can get a reply very soon, and not like after one week?

3) Have anyone actually met a Russian/Ukrainian woman who want to marry abroad but who is actually from middle/upper class (means that financial reason is not the main motivation for marrying a foreigner)?

4) Well travelled women are a dime a dozen, but their incomes don't match up with the expenses. It looks fishy to me. Does anyone have an alternative explanation as to how they manage to travel on a meagre salary, other than the one in my mind (pretty sure you know what I mean)?

5) For anyone who have met the women: when you first met her, did she want to get marry right away? And when you declined and wanted more time, you just got cold shoulder thereafter. How rampant is such situation? This sounds just like someone wanted a visa more than a relationship.

PS. I have never contacted any Russian/Ukrainian women. Just doing my homework as I'm getting serious in going down the happier abroad road.

Also for anyone who's interested, in Australia, there is a prospective marriage visa which goes for 9 months. So there is plenty of time for me to know my potential partner. If we are compatible and eventually married, then she can get a permanent visa. Just curious, how does it work in the US?

romparoo wrote:
1) How many years have Russians/Ukrainians learn English in school? English is global so I guess there ought to be English classes even though it can be rudimentary. I reckon everyday's conversation in English wouldn't be much of a problem? In addition, education policy might have changed from time to time, so I am only asking in regards to the younger generation, like those age from 18 to 25.

Like most countries you have to take a language course in primary school. Some choose French, some English, some German and its reflected in their profiles most of the time. Conversations in English outside of the tourist areas is very much a problem. Much as America still has a anti-Russian/Red Scare sort of thing happening, the same is happening in Russia so many don't bother to learn English for that reason.

You will find more English speakers among the Gen Y crowd you are correct. But as I said before on this forum the wives of the Dream Connection founders did not speak much English beyond Hello when they met. Alyona Jackson took English in school but since she wasn't in a major city like Kiev didn't have a chance to practice. I don't believe she had her own computer either, Law bought her one before he left.

That said I know a few women over 35 that speak excellent English, one is a English teacher in primary school in Kiev.

romparoo wrote:
2) How digitally connected are the women? I am referring to internet connection here. It's 21st century now, I suppose you can get a reply very soon, and not like after one week?

Internet is widely available, what is not is home computers... Some have smartphones, some have desktops, some have laptops. Its sort of hit and miss.

romparoo wrote:
3) Have anyone actually met a Russian/Ukrainian woman who want to marry abroad but who is actually from middle/upper class (means that financial reason is not the main motivation for marrying a foreigner)?

In a word - Yes. I know most of the success stories you have heard are of retail clerks, garment workers and other service sector sort of stuff.

There are doctors, lawyers, chemist, engineers and all that. Here's the thing, those traditional high paying gigs in Western culture don't pay that well in FSU. In fact you can make more money as an RN in the US than you can as a Doctor in Russia. Like in Western countries however the increasing financialization of Russia's economy has meant there are quite a few high paying gigs in that career field. So you will find many of the actual middle class in say Moscow that work in finance.

They also work in media (news, theater and popular music). Ukraine's economy is less robust at this point.

romparoo wrote:
4) Well travelled women are a dime a dozen, but their incomes don't match up with the expenses. It looks fishy to me. Does anyone have an alternative explanation as to how they manage to travel on a meagre salary, other than the one in my mind (pretty sure you know what I mean)?

Define "Well Travelled" because a CIS passport is largely meaningless in much of the EU. Most can not afford to fly to places like Mexico or Cuba. I do know women who have traveled to Mexico/Central America, but they aren't in their 20's. The only way most 20 somethings get to see Europe or North America is by exchange or work permits (summer jobs). A friend of mine married a former exchange student from Russia.

Going to Turkey is cheap. Most travel in-country (Crimea for example).

romparoo wrote:
5) For anyone who have met the women: when you first met her, did she want to get marry right away? And when you declined and wanted more time, you just got cold shoulder thereafter. How rampant is such situation? This sounds just like someone wanted a visa more than a relationship.

I haven't heard of such a thing. That has been thoroughly debunked by now one would think? Maybe some things never die in Western culture when you have built-in bias (see Blacks in Anglo Culture)

None of these things happen in a microwave. Most of the men I know married to FSU women proposed to them within six months of meeting. Some sooner, some later. Mark asked Anna to marry him on his second visit, Law Jackson was sort of slow to start, but picked up speed on his second visit, where he met the in-laws, married Alyona and returned to the US in three days. They had been talking for 8-9 months, they were just waiting for the K1 to come through. I believe Mark's K1 took about 6 months. They were fairly sure after he was there for a week (on the original tour). For my buddy Nate it took the better part of two years.

Let me turn this around on you.

Socials like the ones AFA has its pretty much implied you are there to find a wife, they are there to find a husband. At Western singles events, its much less implied for some strange reason and you're not looking for this. Its more of an osmosis thing, where you meet women and maybe one of those women becomes your wife.

That is bizarre. The demands of both sides are not aligned. These events are not cheap either, meaning they are for mainly successful and often times older singles, especially older women.

The socials can work if you focus on the task at hand.

romparoo wrote:
PS. I have never contacted any Russian/Ukrainian women. Just doing my homework as I'm getting serious in going down the happier abroad road.

Also for anyone who's interested, in Australia, there is a prospective marriage visa which goes for 9 months. So there is plenty of time for me to know my potential partner. If we are compatible and eventually married, then she can get a permanent visa. Just curious, how does it work in the US?

K1 is a 90 day Marriage Visa in the United States. In that 90 days you are suppose to marry. I believe you can apply for an extension but I haven't heard of many people needing to do this.

As for research it depends how much convincing needs to happen and how much doubt do you have.

There are several good books to read if you need convincing

If you have doubts, don't have any. If you get duped, its largely your fault, but that's unlikely to happen if you have clear, defined goals.

A few things you should eliminate -

If you do fairly okay with local women, then you should do fine with FSU women.

Don't wonder if there are good looking women, it's not like Western culture there is no scarcity issue.

Do not bring up the deal breakers during your first meeting or first date.

dj, thanks for your thoughtful reply. It's very useful and I'm copying it for my own reference.

I have some questions again:
1) Is there a national survey somewhere that shows stats about internet usage, computer ownership etc in Russia/Ukraine? I bet there is.
After some google search: Just realise I can google this and get data: internet users as percentage of population ukraine
Also: http://opennet.net/research/profiles/ukraine

2) As for the visa cheat issue, I think it is a matter that needs some serious thinking. Firstly, I read that US immigration department has visa stats that shows majority of foreign women left after 3 months (or something that sounds like that as far as I can remember). That's a solid piece of information in a big picture basis.

Also, I wouldn't have trouble getting local women, but then this statement itself is not useful, because it never mentions the ratings of those local women. Say I can easily date a 5 or 6 out of total rating of 10, but never any local women starting from 7. Then there's this 9 point Russian woman who shows interest in me....you see, naturally I am sort of doubtful, as I have never gotten this desirable before. Getting a 9 point women locally is 100% impossible unless I get lucky.

Also, does Russian women want to build their life together with their partner, or are they just trying to get 'ready made' men who have house, car etc?

How would a Russian woman view a guy in mid 20s with few thousand dollars income per month?

Although ISPs have considerably reduced their access costs (by, for example, leasing outdated or redundant infrastructure from Ukrtelecom) and a few providers offer free access during the night, most Ukrainians cannot afford to use the Internet. Internet penetration increased to 14.6 percent in 2008.

Yeah, get your woman over to your country on a fiance visa - spend 6 months living with her and you'll have a good chance of seeing who she really is.

There are plenty of Eastern European women here in the UK. They do our "Mexican" jobs.

Polish women are probably the best of the bunch. Poland is booming these days. My dad thinks Czech girls are good.

Not all "mail order brides" are poor. I've only dated Asian women, but a couple were filthy rich. Smart and sophisticated women everywhere have real problems finding guys who are their intellectual equal, and remember that guys rarely "marry up" so to speak.

xiongmao wrote:Yeah, get your woman over to your country on a fiance visa - spend 6 months living with her and you'll have a good chance of seeing who she really is.

There are plenty of Eastern European women here in the UK. They do our "Mexican" jobs.

Polish women are probably the best of the bunch. Poland is booming these days. My dad thinks Czech girls are good.

Not all "mail order brides" are poor. I've only dated Asian women, but a couple were filthy rich. Smart and sophisticated women everywhere have real problems finding guys who are their intellectual equal, and remember that guys rarely "marry up" so to speak.

Xiongmao, do you come from UK? I think the Brits are lucky. If I am given a choice to be one of these: Brits, Americans or Aussies, I gonna pick Brits. Brits basically have everything on their doorstep. Like you said, Polish women are all over UK. That seems great to me. Typically, the majority of people who move abroad to work are guys. Being down under, I am sort of too far away. It's a beautiful country with nature and beaches, but without a genuine companion whom you can relate to, life can be very lonely. Heck, those I know who have partners do not have much to do in the weekends anyway.

I am not surprise about what you mentioned about some Asian women. Asian guys who would go for these women are mostly doormats, while those who can step up to it have plenty of options. Plus it is partly a legacy of one child policy. Not too sure the same will apply for FSU women though.

Internet access is available at the ISP level, the problem is at the consumer level. Russia has more computer owners and internet users due to its economy than Ukraine, never mind most of the poor countries that make up CIS. In other words, I'd say less than half the women you would contact have a computer at home.

Even though we can get 15.6 laptop for $270 or a dual core slim desktop with 20" lcd for $300 in America, that is more than half the income of most Ukrainians...

The woman I met in 2008 had a used HP laptop Pentium 3, which you can find at truck stops in America for $200-$250. Not sure how much she paid for it.

The only thing paid for with an actual job was the HP from Black Friday. The majority of the Dell desktop was paid with EDD. The rest has been paid for by estate/insurance money or plasma donation money.

I have enough parts, all I need is a power supply for a third desktop....

I am not only unusual in America, its unheard of in much of FSU but hackers.

Stop worrying about Visa cheats, as I said if you find one, its your fault. I am not sure about AUS, but in America, it takes three years to get your Green card. You can still have your wife deported in that time frame if she's a clear cheat by usually avoiding sex. Companies like Anastasia and AFA don't properly prepare men that have had difficulty dating in America. Lots of men have problems due to superficial issues of course and their sense get crushed by so many women in one place when going on these tours.

As I said you need forget if the women will be attractive. Yes, no worries. They bomb the city they are going too and they get new recruits all the time. As I said 20-30 men, 100-150-200 women. If you have defined goals, you can navigate this.

If you don't, you'll be doing the company a favor ($$$). This is where I have constantly said, most people on these tours have more money than sense. Mark's recently completed tour has maybe two or three guys returning on another tour. Ridiculous...

On my own I had three, maybe even four potential long term relationships. Without any agency and if I had zigged instead of zagged, I might be posting here just to encourage guys to do it but I would have made compromises as well.

The women you contact overseas will be more attractive in most cases because as I said they are not using totally superficial reasons as Western women tend to exclude you.

Women over 30 and especially with children will want a "stable man". Many of them have come from stabilized careers and don't want to backtrack, I don't blame them, can you? If you're like me largely starting from scratch then you'll want a younger woman, who tend not to have anything as long as you are productive they will build something with you. You can find women in Western culture like this, but mostly in rural areas and often times with children.

The reality is, collecting unemployment in Western Culture will earn you more money than most Ukrainian and a good chunk of Russia earn in a month, never mind the 'Stans, Georgia or Moldova.

Just having a job will get your past most women's smell test anyway.

The problem a mid-20's guys going over to FSU is seriousness. Women in their 20's superimpose their experience on you. In other words, most men in their 20's are neither serious or totally unprepared for the next step in life of being a parent/married. So if you can prove to them that you are serious, they will be relieved because while some women do like mature men (10-15 years older) the majority do want mean 2-8 years older than them.

Some recommend you write off women younger than 25. I don't think so. Especially if you're talking about women outside of the major cities, most women around 18-24 will be ready for a committed long term relationship. Maybe not with a man in his 40's and 50's but for sure a man in his mid to late 20's and early-mid 30's.

The problem is most men going on these tours (if you choose that route) are in their 40's and 50's, as most Western men are still experiencing the frustration with the local dating pool. They may have one or two, maybe three men under 35 on these things.

You basically have two choices, DIY or Tour. DIY can be web sites which can and has worked, don't poo-poo it. Though I agree with most that you never have only one option. You should have a few, I would say at least two/three micro dates per day. It shouldn't take long for you to narrow it down, but you need time.

On tours you need to be focused. If you can't find a woman out of 100-150-200 women you have issues. You haven't met that many women in your life and the old way of doing things is badly flawed.

I know getting paid time off in America is an issue, I don't know about AU/NZ.

I believe the biggest issue is meeting enough women. Gang Tours as Tony Bochene likes to call them help but as I said you need to be focused on the task. You can't be distracted by women, I live in LA seeing beautiful women is nothing so I can't be distracted by that. My goal would be trying to meet as many women as possible. You should have the same outlook on web sites, don't contact 10-15 women, contact 100-200-300 women.

Stay tuned I think having a good profile is very important if you're using a web site and I think there's a way to increase your odds using a web site.

xiongmao wrote:Yeah, get your woman over to your country on a fiance visa - spend 6 months living with her and you'll have a good chance of seeing who she really is.

There are plenty of Eastern European women here in the UK. They do our "Mexican" jobs.

Polish women are probably the best of the bunch. Poland is booming these days. My dad thinks Czech girls are good.

Not all "mail order brides" are poor. I've only dated Asian women, but a couple were filthy rich. Smart and sophisticated women everywhere have real problems finding guys who are their intellectual equal, and remember that guys rarely "marry up" so to speak.

There are reasons to marry a poorer woman and reasons to marry a middle class and higher woman.

IMHO where I am at with my life currently a poorer woman will more and likely agree with what I have in mind than a woman who is used to a certain material lifestyle.

As I have said before, going from living in your parents house, a poor paying job, no computer, no internet, no car of your own, to all the above and then some, its a complete upgrade for them regardless if you work a service sector job or now. As I keep saying our standard of living is high and highly wasteful. Our poor look rich to the rest of the world. So its an upgrade.

A middle class woman, woman over 30 or with children is likely to hook up with an established man to protect her children and like I said keep a certain material lifestyle.

Although ISPs have considerably reduced their access costs (by, for example, leasing outdated or redundant infrastructure from Ukrtelecom) and a few providers offer free access during the night, most Ukrainians cannot afford to use the Internet. Internet penetration increased to 14.6 percent in 2008.

Oh my gosh

i think almost 100% of young people (15-30) have access to Internet in these days.

According to the Internet Association of Ukraine, 60.8% of Ukraine's population (age 15-64 years) have had access to Internet as of March 2012; It is unclear whether these numbers include mobile Internet services which are provided by all of Ukraine's mobile phone operators.
According to the iKS-Consulting, there were 6 300 000 broadband subscribers in Ukraine as of March 2012. 5.53 millions of them were households, which amounts to 39% Internet penetration of all country's households.
Ukraine has a large and steadily growing Internet sector; rapid growth is forecast for at least two more years. The number of Internet users in Ukraine was expected to nearly double by 2015. "Now, about 42 percent, or 19.3 million Ukrainians, have Internet access (54% urban and 23% rural residents...in capital Kyiv 90% of population have internet (like in Western Europe).

djfourmoney wrote:
You should have the same outlook on web sites, don't contact 10-15 women, contact 100-200-300 women.

Hey dj. I really appreciate you putting all this effort in replying. I am sure my brief reply wouldn't do it any justice, but rest assure many people who chance upon this thread will find it immensely useful.

Anyway, the feeling I get from quoted above is that dating FSU women is pretty much like dating online locally. From what I have read (many were actually found here), my assumption is that there's a lack of quality men. If I need to contact 100 to 300 women, then that will mostly likely debunk the myth of 'lack of quality men'. Plus, if the myth holds up, it's the women who should initiate that big amount of approaches, not the other way round. I'm not trying to debate, just saying it as it is

I actually created a profile at Elena's today. Previously I had an account somewhere. I never actually used it and can't remember the name. The old site have got me a few mails very soon, and even more invitation for chats. I call BS for that since I did not even upload a picture. Needless to say I would need to pay to contact the women. My rather short experience with Elena today looks rather 'quiet', so in one way it's more realistic, but in another it started to look not much different than what I am expected to get locally. Well, I will wait for a week or two and see if any ladies would want to initiate a chat. If there is not much response, I would conclude that it's just the same as dating locally. Seriously, if FSU women are also looking for jocks, and if I am one, I would have just dated locally and wouldn't waste my time given the extra effort and risk.

romparoo wrote: 1) How many years have Russians/Ukrainians learn English in school? English is global so I guess there ought to be English classes even though it can be rudimentary. I reckon everyday's conversation in English wouldn't be much of a problem? In addition, education policy might have changed from time to time, so I am only asking in regards to the younger generation, like those age from 18 to 25.

2) How digitally connected are the women? I am referring to internet connection here. It's 21st century now, I suppose you can get a reply very soon, and not like after one week?

3) Have anyone actually met a Russian/Ukrainian woman who want to marry abroad but who is actually from middle/upper class (means that financial reason is not the main motivation for marrying a foreigner)?

4) Well travelled women are a dime a dozen, but their incomes don't match up with the expenses. It looks fishy to me. Does anyone have an alternative explanation as to how they manage to travel on a meagre salary, other than the one in my mind (pretty sure you know what I mean)?

5) For anyone who have met the women: when you first met her, did she want to get marry right away? And when you declined and wanted more time, you just got cold shoulder thereafter. How rampant is such situation? This sounds just like someone wanted a visa more than a relationship.

PS. I have never contacted any Russian/Ukrainian women. Just doing my homework as I'm getting serious in going down the happier abroad road.

Also for anyone who's interested, in Australia, there is a prospective marriage visa which goes for 9 months. So there is plenty of time for me to know my potential partner. If we are compatible and eventually married, then she can get a permanent visa. Just curious, how does it work in the US?

Hi guys, today I stumbled upon this forum and decided to have a look. What I saw made me curious:) Being a Ukrainian its interesting to read what people from other countries think of you! How they debate and try to find a right answer based upon their hunch and experience. See, we all have different mentalities and it means that we all see the world from different angles. People in America were brought up to see it one way, people in Ukraine the other way...Every country has own way thats what makes us all different. Its amazing that people of the world don't have boundaries to travel any more! I wouldn't say its so in Ukraine tho, but we still do travel if we can afford.
Since I'm here, I'll try to help you with your questions. Maybe it will help someone here to understand us better
We all have English at schools, but how one knows it depends on the school. Some people choose classes that have many hrs of it so they know it better, some don't put much effort in it, so in the end they don't know it much. I'd say people from city area care more about knowing foreign languages than ppl from rural areas.
Most ppl in Ukraine don't care much about their e-mails, unless they need it for work. So, I wouldn't put much expectations in the fact that you may have bought couple of e-mail addresses from dating sites. Even if this person has one, it was made only to register on social network or just to have one. If we're talking about replies on dating sites here, its completely different story. Lets say its not always the girl on the picture who replies you;)
Trust me, Ukrainian women ARE family oriented and all want to get married and have families. Besides, this is put even higher than career, mostly..
As for expenses, well yeah..we try to buy what we want, thats why we have priorities. Western ppl tend to save up while Ukrainians/Russians tend to live in the moment. Thats why we have iphones even with low salary.
Hmmm, if you meet a woman who wants to marry you right away, be it in any part of the world, it sure means something's wrong...!?

Well, wrapping up I'll say, Ukrainian women are really as gentle, kind and family oriented as they are described. That is why many westerners chose to find a Ukrainian wife instead of one in their own country. And trust me, I don't think that those who found their woman are disappointed

romparoo wrote: 1) How many years have Russians/Ukrainians learn English in school? English is global so I guess there ought to be English classes even though it can be rudimentary. I reckon everyday's conversation in English wouldn't be much of a problem? In addition, education policy might have changed from time to time, so I am only asking in regards to the younger generation, like those age from 18 to 25.

2) How digitally connected are the women? I am referring to internet connection here. It's 21st century now, I suppose you can get a reply very soon, and not like after one week?

3) Have anyone actually met a Russian/Ukrainian woman who want to marry abroad but who is actually from middle/upper class (means that financial reason is not the main motivation for marrying a foreigner)?

4) Well travelled women are a dime a dozen, but their incomes don't match up with the expenses. It looks fishy to me. Does anyone have an alternative explanation as to how they manage to travel on a meagre salary, other than the one in my mind (pretty sure you know what I mean)?

5) For anyone who have met the women: when you first met her, did she want to get marry right away? And when you declined and wanted more time, you just got cold shoulder thereafter. How rampant is such situation? This sounds just like someone wanted a visa more than a relationship.

PS. I have never contacted any Russian/Ukrainian women. Just doing my homework as I'm getting serious in going down the happier abroad road.

Also for anyone who's interested, in Australia, there is a prospective marriage visa which goes for 9 months. So there is plenty of time for me to know my potential partner. If we are compatible and eventually married, then she can get a permanent visa. Just curious, how does it work in the US?

Hi guys, today I stumbled upon this forum and decided to have a look. What I saw made me curious:) Being a Ukrainian its interesting to read what people from other countries think of you! How they debate and try to find a right answer based upon their hunch and experience. See, we all have different mentalities and it means that we all see the world from different angles. People in America were brought up to see it one way, people in Ukraine the other way...Every country has own way thats what makes us all different. Its amazing that people of the world don't have boundaries to travel any more! I wouldn't say its so in Ukraine tho, but we still do travel if we can afford.
Since I'm here, I'll try to help you with your questions. Maybe it will help someone here to understand us better
We all have English at schools, but how one knows it depends on the school. Some people choose classes that have many hrs of it so they know it better, some don't put much effort in it, so in the end they don't know it much. I'd say people from city area care more about knowing foreign languages than ppl from rural areas.
Most ppl in Ukraine don't care much about their e-mails, unless they need it for work. So, I wouldn't put much expectations in the fact that you may have bought couple of e-mail addresses from dating sites. Even if this person has one, it was made only to register on social network or just to have one. If we're talking about replies on dating sites here, its completely different story. Lets say its not always the girl on the picture who replies you;)
Trust me, Ukrainian women ARE family oriented and all want to get married and have families. Besides, this is put even higher than career, mostly..
As for expenses, well yeah..we try to buy what we want, thats why we have priorities. Western ppl tend to save up while Ukrainians/Russians tend to live in the moment. Thats why we have iphones even with low salary.
Hmmm, if you meet a woman who wants to marry you right away, be it in any part of the world, it sure means something's wrong...!?

Well, wrapping up I'll say, Ukrainian women are really as gentle, kind and family oriented as they are described. That is why many westerners chose to find a Ukrainian wife instead of one in their own country. And trust me, I don't think that those who found their woman are disappointed