Who Are The 144,000?

Scripture reveals the identity of the 144,000 witnesses of Revelation chapter 7.

— Who are the 144,000 Witnesses of Revelation Chapter 7? A Biblical Study —

They are one of the most mysterious groups mentioned in the Bible. Many sects and cults have claimed to literally be them. But who are the 144,000 witnesses mentioned in Revelation chapter 7? Are these the only people who make it to Heaven? Are these supernatural beings who will descend to Earth in the end times? This article will identify the 144,000 based on Bible Scripture and their very important role in God restoring the nation of Israel and the world in the final days before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

The 144,000

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. – Revelation 7:1-8.

The most important aspect of interpreting Bible Scripture is to examine the verses in context. In our article The Red Moon Rapture – Biblical Timing of The Rapture, we detailed the events of the 6th seal of Revelation chapter 6. The Rapture of the church takes place at its opening and is immediately followed by a massive, global earthquake that sends the most powerful, wealthiest people on Earth literally running for the hills. The entire sinful world, who rejected God, will realize that the wrath of God has begun. Chapter 6 ends with the exclamation:

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? – Revelation 6:15-17.

This is important to understand the context as we head into chapter 7. The Apostle John, the author of the book of Revelation was called up to Heaven in the spirit to record the events of the end of the world. From his heavenly perspective he was shown events on both Earth and Heaven. And clearly, the events of the 6th seal (a massive global earthquake, people running and hiding in caves and holes in fear for their lives, etc) are taking place on Earth. So it is critical to understand that as chapter 7 begins, we are still in the events of the 6th seal. The 7th seal has not been opened yet. [B&E: as a side note, this should give the reader of the Rapture series more confirmation that the 6th seal is the time of the Rapture and the start of the end times Day of The Lord. Each of the preceding 5 seals in Revelation 6 were given about 3-4 verses of description. On the other hand, the Apostle John devotes one and a half chapters worth of Scripture to detail all the events of the Sixth Seal].

Now that the Rapture has taken place and all born again Christian have been removed from Earth, God returns His attention to the nation of Israel. As detailed in our article The Day of The Lord – The Event That Starts The End of The World, this is one of the primary purposes of the end times: The Lord’s plan to reconcile the nation of Israel to believing faith in Jesus Christ the Messiah. From the time Christ was rejected by Israel during His ministry on earth, He prophesied to the nation of Israel that they would walk in spiritual blindness:

And when he was come near, he beheld the city [Jerusalem], and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. – Luke 19:40-44.

The Lord Jesus was informing the Israelites that had they known the prophetic signs detailed in the Old Testament, all of which Jesus had fulfilled, they would not have missed the time of “their visitation.” But because they had rejected the Messiah, they were going to suffer spiritual blindness. This is confirmed in Romans Chapter 11:

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway… For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. – Romans 11:7-11, 25-27.

This is a very important passage to understand the ultimate plan of God in the end times. Paul calls it a “mystery” – meaning this is divine revelation that had not been disclosed prior to the writing of these verses. The Apostle Paul makes it very clear: the nation of Israel, the actual lineage of the same Israelites alive at the time of Christ, were walking in “blindness in part.” There would be a lack of understanding and belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ among the Israelite people. And of course this is seen in Israeli culture as the overwhelming majority of people today still do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God or Messiah. And they are still awaiting their Messiah to come.

But the passage goes on to say that this blindness would last “until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.” The fullness of the Gentiles is the full amount of members of the Church – the believers in Jesus Christ who put their faith in the Biblical Gospel. The church reaches its fullness at the Rapture, when it is supernaturally removed from the Earth, to the clouds to meet Jesus Christ in the air and go to Heaven. The Greek for the phrase “come in” is eiserchomai and it means “to enter.” It is the same phrase used by Jesus in Matthew 5:20 when He said: “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter [eiserchomai] into the kingdom of heaven.” It is at this time that The Lord returns his attention to the nation of Israel and pours out the spirit of “grace and supplication” to start the process of their redemption to saving faith. The prophet Ezekiel prophesied of this end times revival among the people of Israel:

Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame. But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. – Ezekiel 36.

God is going to work unilaterally to call Israel to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus confirmed the same when He said:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. – Luke 13:34-35.

“Study to show thyself approved..” We must look to Scripture alone to find answers to prophetic questions.

And thus this is why right after the opening of the 6th seal, when the Church has been removed from Earth, we see God preparing the 144,000 Israelite witnesses to share the Gospel with the Israelites and the world at large. We will now go directly to the verses from the passage to show God’s plan at work:

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.”

The four angels are positioned around the earth holding the four winds of the Earth. As we explained in our article “Who Are The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse”, the first four seals opened in Revelation 6 released spiritual beings in the form of horses and riders. In Zechariah 6, we are given the interpretation of who these beings are:

In the Septuagint, the oldest version of the Old Testament (translated from the original paleo-Hebrew which the ancient copies of the Old Testament were written in) the verse reads that they are “four winds that stand before the throne of God.” In Revelation Chapter 6, as Jesus Christ open the first four seals of the Book handed to Him from The Lord God, these four spirits or winds are sent into Earth during the Church Age to bring various forms of judgment all over the planet in the form of religious deception, wars and rumors of wars, famine and death through pestilence and disease.

Once the Church Age ends with the Rapture at the end of Chapter 6, these four winds are then reassigned. In Chapter 7 they are held by four high-ranking angels who are preparing to unleash them once again to destroy the land, sea and trees of the earth as a part of the judgments of the Day of The Lord. So we see a complete consistent transition from chapter 6 to chapter 7.

It is also important to note here that the events the Apostle John is viewing here are still on Earth. The four angels are on Earth. The four winds they are holding are on Earth.

“And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”

A fifth angel now appears on the scene telling the first four angels who were sent to bring forth judgment against the earth, trees and sea, to wait. They are to hold off on unleashing the judgments of the four winds until the servants of the God have been sealed in their foreheads. Here we see the special distinction of the 144,000. They are a chosen group, who will fulfill a specific task for The Lord during the end times.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

Scripture clearly identifies the 144,000: they are children of Israel. It is important to note that when Scripture uses the term “children of Israel” it is referring to the lineage of Abraham. It is not a reference to the Church. The Church, in their spiritual connection to Abraham through faith are referred to as “Jews” and the “seed of Abraham” in Scripture, adopted into the family of God through faith in Christ. However the term “children of Israel” refers to national Israel. In the New Testament, the phrase “children of Israel” is only used 14 times, and each is a reference to the descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob (who was renamed Israel by The Lord). The 144,000 are actual ethnic Israelite descendants. Scripture goes on to make this very clear by specifying each tribe:

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

The 144,000 along with 2 witnesses of Revelation 11 (who will be covered in our study on that chapter) are primary witnesses of the Gospel on Earth. Jesus Christ prophesied that the Gospel of the Kingdom would be preached in the final days before His Second Coming. The Gospel of the Kingdom was what Jesus, John the Baptist and disciples preached at the beginning of their ministries. It was an announcement that “the kingdom is at hand” meaning the Messiah is about to arrive! This was John the Baptist’s message in the early days of Jesus’ ministry:

In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. – Matthew 3:1-3.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is what Jesus commanded His disciples to share with the people of Israel in the beginning of their ministry. Luke chapter 10 details a special group of seventy witnesses, selected by Jesus, to go out with the twelve disciples to witness the Gospel of the Kingdom:

After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. – Luke 10:1-9.

This special envoy of witnesses were instructed specifically to preach that the “kingdom of God is nigh unto you.” It was a bold proclamation that the prophesied Messiah was preparing His arrival and Scripture is about to be fulfilled, so the people were to repent of their sins and prepare their hearts by believing in faith in Him. After the Rapture, when Israel will once again be the focus of God’s plans, the same Gospel message will be preached as it will only be a matter of years until the Second Coming of The Lord at Armageddon. Jesus confirmed this when teaching on the end times in Matthew 24.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. – Matthew 24:14.

The Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached and Jesus Christ will have His specially assigned witnesses deliver the messages.

Foreshadow Of The 144,000

Ezekiel chapter 9 contains a foreshadow of the designation of the 144,000. In Ezekiel chapter 8, God gave the prophet a special insight into how far into spiritual idolatry, satanic witchcraft and the occult, Israel had fallen. God took Ezekiel to a place to look inside the temple, the most sacred location for the entire nation. There Ezekiel saw that the priests of the temple, who were appointed to carry out all of the duties to maintain the temple and carry out the ritual sacrifices of atonement, were secretly adepts in the occult:

And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD’s house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. – Ezekiel 8:16-18.

The priests working in the Holy temple were secretly worshiping the sun and engaging in occult practices. This is how far gone Israel was from God. In Chapter 9, God prepared His righteous judgment to punish Israel for their worship of other gods.

He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer’s inkhorn by his side; And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. – Ezekiel 9:1-7.

All the men who still believed and worshiped The Lord were given a mark in their foreheads to signify their faith. So before the avenging angel carried out his punishment to kill the idolaters, they were designated. This is a type and shadow of what will happen to the 144,000. The world will be in a complete state of spiritual confusion after all born again Christians have been raptured at the opening of the sixth seal. The Antichrist will be emerging on the world scene but not yet the global ruler he will become. It is at this time God will call out the 144,000 to be His servants on Earth to share the Gospel.

Their Supernatural Protection

Just as the faithful men in Ezekiel 9 were protected from judgment, so will the 144,000. At the sounding of the 5th trumpet judgment in Revelation 9, a supernatural demonic army will be released from the bottomless pit (also known as the abyss), a prison of demons and fallen angels:

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.– Revelation 9:1-5.

This supernatural, demonic army from the abyss will invade the world openly. And they will torment all people on the Earth for five months. They will cause so much pain and suffering that people will wish they could die rather than suffer the torment from these beings. And the 144,000 will be protected from their attacks. Like the Israelites in Goshen in the days of the Exodus, who were protected from the plagues sent by God while the Egyptians suffered, this supernatural protection of the 144,000 will serve as a clear sign that God is truly with these men. Thus giving more evidence that they were truly sent from God. In the Gospels, Jesus, during the time of His earthly ministry, told His selected 70 witnesses they would also have supernatural ability to show the world as a sign of their being sent by Him:

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. – Luke 10:17-20.

Just as the 70 witnesses were given power over serpents, demonic forces, referred to as “serpents and scorpions”, so too will the 144,000 witnesses of the Great Tribulation have power over the demonic army from the pit, whose power is like scorpions.

The End Of Their Ministry

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. – Revelation 14:1-5.

In Revelation 14, we see the 144,000 in Heaven, on Mt. Sion, the heavenly mountain of God (the identification of Mount Sion as a Heavenly mountain and not the earthly Mount Zion is confirmed in Hebrews chapter 12). It is clear at this point that the 144,000 are dead and thus “redeemed from the Earth”. It is this author’s contention that the 144,000 will be some of the first victims of the Great Persecution carried out by the Antichrist that commences in Revelation 13. The Antichrist once he has received the Beast spirit that emerges from the bottomless pit, will assume full global control as God-King. And one of his first acts will be to persecute all people on Earth who proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And the 144,000 along with the 2 witnesses will be killed in his persecution. [B&E: The Great Persecution of The Antichrist will be explored in more detail in our studies on chapters 13 and 14 of Revelation].

This is why the 144,000 will be considered “first fruits” unto God. They are the first of the “harvest” of end times Israelite and Gentile believers who will return to God through faith in Jesus Christ. Revelation 14 is a chapter that chronicles the persecution and murder of believers by the Antichrist – but it is from the Heavenly perspective. John is seeing events in Heaven and this is a Divine Harvest. While the death of the 144,000 may seem sad on Earth, their martyrdom is a glorious event in Heaven as these chosen servants have finally united with Christ their Savior in Heaven.

From this passage the Bible confirms that these witnesses will also be men who have not had intimate relations with women (they are called “virgins”). And for their service in the Great Tribulation, they are given the honor of singing a song of praise to The Lord that no angel or human in Heaven has ever sung before. Now in Heaven, they are redeemed and forgiven of any sins before God and remain in the presence of Jesus Christ forever.

This is the full Biblical analysis of the 144,000 in Scripture. But the story does not end here because in modern day theology, there is so much controversy about this group. So the next section will attempt to address some of the most common questions raised about the 144,00.

There are many false teachings about the 144,000 of Revelation chapter 7.

How do the 144,000 witnesses know what tribe of Israel they are from?

Although some people in Israel today can identify their lineage all the way back to the days of Jesus Christ, there are many Israelis who cannot. So how will the 144,000 know their tribal origin? Looking at Scripture, they do not need to know. The 144,000 are not volunteers – they are divinely selected and marked by angels who seal them with the sign of God. The angels who seal the 144,000 know who they are and will identify them at the appointed time. This is a supernatural process. God is now actively working, via divine power and agency to bring salvation to Israel. And since God knows everyone’s lineage, the angels he sends will have no problem identifying the 144,000.

Where is the tribe of Dan?

In the list of twelve tribes in Revelation 7, the tribe of Dan is not included. In most lists of the twelve tribes in Scripture, the tribes of Levi was not there (because their inheritance was The Lord) and neither was Joseph (because Jospeh’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh were adopted by Jacob and they were counted as part of the 12 tribes in place of Joseph). Dan is always listed until the end times list in Revelation 7. So why is Dan not there? That answer can be found in the book of Judges:

And when they were a good way from the house of Micah, the men that were in the houses near to Micah’s house were gathered together, and overtook the children of Dan. And they cried unto the children of Dan. And they turned their faces, and said unto Micah, What aileth thee, that thou comest with such a company? And he said, Ye have taken away my gods which I made, and the priest, and ye are gone away: and what have I more? and what is this that ye say unto me, What aileth thee? And the children of Dan said unto him, Let not thy voice be heard among us, lest angry fellows run upon thee, and thou lose thy life, with the lives of thy household. And the children of Dan went their way: and when Micah saw that they were too strong for him, he turned and went back unto his house.

And they took the things which Micah had made, and the priest which he had, and came unto Laish, unto a people that were at quiet and secure: and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and burnt the city with fire. And there was no deliverer, because it was far from Zidon, and they had no business with any man; and it was in the valley that lieth by Bethrehob. And they built a city, and dwelt therein. And they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father, who was born unto Israel: howbeit the name of the city was Laish at the first. And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land. And they set them up Micah’s graven image, which he made, all the time that the house of God was in Shiloh.

Rather than take their part of the Promised Land as Joshua had commanded them to do years earlier, Dan continued as nomads, traveling for land they preferred. When they finally decided to enter their designated area, they robbed the home of a man named Micah who was a worshiper of false gods. Micah also hired a corrupt Levite priest to work for him in leading his demonic worship. The Danites forced the priest to come with them and serve them once and their nation was established they fell into spiritual idolatry, setting up a new religion centered on the stolen idols and graven images. This flagrant rebellion against God was reminiscent of when the Israelites worshiped the golden calf while Moses was on Mt. Sinai receiving the Ten Commandments from God. This sin was so severe that thousands of men were executed as a result. Now decades later, in the Promised Land, the tribe of Dan was taking their sin to the next level. Scripture states that the graven images of false gods were set up in Dan until the time of the Assyrian captivity. So for centuries, the nation of Dan was a center of pagan worship and a rejection of God right in the Promised Land.

Further confirming that they were most likely disqualified from being a part of the end times revival of Israel were two prophecies made about this tribe. In Genesis, when Jacob was blessing his twelve sons who were the patriarchs of the twelve tribes, he said of Dan:

Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. – Genesis 49:16-17.

Dan would one day judge Israel but not in righteousness as a godly judge, but as a “serpent by the way, an adder in the path.” This immediately brings up a connection to Satan who in Revelation is called “that old Serpent.” In describing evil, sinful people, Psalm 58 says:

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. – Psalm 91:13.

The designation of being a “serpent” and “adder” appears to be prophetic of Dan’s decision to enter into rebellion against God for as long as they existed as a nation.

Another association with devil is the prediction that the tribe of Dan will “biteth the horse heels.” In Genesis 3, God told Satan that he would “bruise the heel” of the Messiah, which was fulfilled in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Could Dan be connected to the end times Antichrist? Could the Antichrist be a descendant of the tribe of Dan?

A second prophecy seems to further confirm this possibility. When Moses was on his deathbed and was blessing the twelve tribes, he said of Dan:

And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion’s whelp: he shall leap from Bashan. – Deuteronomy 33:22.

In this fascinating prophecy, Moses quotes from Genesis 49. Jacob used the term lion’s whelp in reference to the tribe of Judah:

Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

The tribe of Judah was the tribe from which the Messiah would be born. And in other Scriptures the Messiah is referred to as “the Lion of the tribe of Judah.” In also calling Dan a lion’s whelp, was Moses making an allusion to the false Messiah? It certainly seems to be the case. Additionally, Moses prophesied that Dan will “leap from Bashan.” Bashan was one of the locations of the Nephilim giants and in particular, King Og, who Moses himself fought against and slew. The Nephilim were the fiercest enemies of Israel and absolute enemies standing in opposition of God’s plans. The Antichrist will be the embodiment of opposition to The Lord and will seek to defy God and destroy all who believe in Jesus Christ. So again the connection between Dan and the Antichrist seems to be strong. And this would be a very plausible reason for why Dan is not included in the 144,000.

Where Is The Tribe of Ephraim?

Like the sinful tribe of Ephraim, many in the New Age and occult have twisted God’s Word to form their own false religion.

Similarly, the tribe of Ephraim is excluded from the list of tribes in the 144,000. And it is for the same reason – a rejection of God in favor leading the nation of Israel into satanic worship. This offense was done no more blatantly than by King Jeroboam, who ruled the Northern Kingdom of Israel after the nation split following the reign of King Solomon. [B&E: Please note that this was a very critical time in Biblical history. It is strongly recommended to study this section of Scripture as there are many profound and powerful lessons and insights to be learned].

And the man Jeroboam was a mighty man of valour: and Solomon seeing the young man that he was industrious, he made him ruler over all the charge of the house of Joseph. And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field: And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces: And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee: (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David’s sake, and for Jerusalem’s sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)

Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father. Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant’s sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes: But I will take the kingdom out of his son’s hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes. And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there. And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel. And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee. – 1 Kings 11:28-38.

Because of Solomon’s idolatry and worship of false gods and demons, the Kingdom of Israel was split, with the ten tribes forming the Northern Kingdom (called “Israel”) and the tribes of Benjamin, Judah and Levi comprising the southern Kingdom (called “Judah”). Jeroboam, who of the tribe of Ephraim, was given rulership over the Northern Kingdom. So his tribe was selected to lead the 9 other tribes with them in this time. But Jeroboam’s and the Northern Kingdom’s prosperity was conditioned on the King obeying God and putting faith and trust in His Word.

At this time of his Divine appointment to be King, Jeroboam fled to Egypt in fear for his life that Solomon, who was still ruling at the time, would kill him. After Solomon’s death, he returned and the people of the Northern Kingdom embraced him as their king. In the southern kingdom, Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, now ruler, prepared to wage war against Jeroboam and unite the kingdom once again. But before he launched his attack, God sent a prophet to tell Rehoboam not to fight but honor God’s plan of a divided Kingdom. Rehoboam obeyed and God proved He was truly protecting Jeroboam’s throne.

Despite this Jeroboam still had no faith in God’s Word. Jerusalem, the Holy City of the children of Israel, was in the Southern Kingdom. This meant that the temple of Solomon, where the ark of the covenant was located and where all worship and sacrifices to God were to take place, was there as well. Even though the Kingdom was divided, God’s law still required sacrifice and offering to take place in Jerusalem at the temple. Fearful, that the people of his kingdom would go worship in Jerusalem (and perhaps want to live there permanently or give their allegiance to the kingdom of Judah), Jeroboam doubted God and fell into sin:

And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David: If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah. Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.

And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi. And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made. So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense. – 1 Kings 12:26-33.

This time of testing revealed the wickedness of Jeroboam. Rather than trust in God for protection, Jeroboam turned from the Lord and set up his own pagan false religion in the Northern Kingdom. He had golden calves made for the people to worship and make offerings to, copying one of the worst sins in the Old Testament when Aaron made the same sinful error in the book of Exodus. Jeroboam appointed the “lowest people” to be priests, when God specifically commanded that only members of the tribe of Levi could serve as priests. And note that the golden calves were set up in Bethel and Dan. The pagan, demonic worship of Dan continued and Jeroboam made it special location for altars to the false gods he set up. This evil king even went as far as to declare his own date for the feast of tabernacles. And he led the entire Northern Kingdom into rebellion against God.

Jeroboam’s sin was so offensive and so grievous that throughout Scripture “the sins of Jeroboam” are used time and time again as a standard of evil when other later kings were being described. The Northern Kingdom was so rebellious that almost all of its kings were pagans who worshiped false gods and demons. And it was all started by Jeroboam. In 1 Kings 13, the judgment of this sinful king of the tribe of Ephraim was pronounced: “And this thing became sin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth.”

So like the tribe of Dan, Ephraim’s rampant idolatry and rejection of faith in God disqualified it from the 144,000.

What about groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses or 7th Day Adventists who claim to be members of the 144,000?

The Jehovah’s Witness religion has little in common with Biblical Christianity. They first teach a false gospel of works-based salvation. They also use teachings that are not from the Bible (their Watchtower magazines are used to teach in the place of the Bible). With respect to the 144,000, they erroneously believe that their members and leadership comprise the 144,000. The following is directly from the official website of the Jehovah’s Witnesses:

Who are those 144,000? John himself tells us: “These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.” (Revelation 14:1, 4) Yes, they are faithful followers of Jesus Christ specially chosen to rule in heaven with him. After being raised out of death to heavenly life, “they are to rule as kings over the earth” along with Jesus. (Revelation 5:10) Since the days of the apostles, God has been selecting faithful Christians in order to complete the number 144,000. To arrange for Jesus and the 144,000 to rule mankind is very loving. For one thing, Jesus knows what it is like to be a human and to suffer. Paul said that Jesus is “not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15; 5:8) His corulers too have suffered and endured as humans. In addition, they have struggled with imperfection and coped with all kinds of sickness. Surely, they will understand the problems that humans face!

“This ‘little flock’ of 144,000 Kingdom heirs, then, are those ones from among mankind who are ‘born again.'” (source).

As we can see, this interpretation contradicts Scripture on its face. Revelation 7 is clear that after the opening of the 6th Seal, a future event that has not taken place yet, the 144,000 are sealed. Yet by Jehovah’s Witness’ false doctrine, they have been selected on an ongoing basis “since the days of the Apostles.” In terms of their mission, there is no mention of them witnessing the Gospel to Israel or the world. Instead the Jehovah’s Witness doctrine jumps back to Revelation Chapter 5 to somehow assert that the 144,000 are special rulers over mankind. None of this is ever stated in Scripture. This bizarre interpretation continues with their belief that the 144,000 are the only people who go to Heaven, living in “spirit bodies” while the rest of the Jehovah’s Witnesses remain on Earth in physical, resurrected bodies waiting to be ruled by the 144,000.

Again, this interpretation should be rejected along with all Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. Among the many heresies they teach are that there is no trinity, Jesus was a created being. Jesus was the archangel Michael, transformed into a man, Jesus did not resurrect to a physical body and Jesus returned to Earth in 1914 (one of their many failed prophecies). Charles Taze Russell, who founded the Jehovah’s Witness cult, false prophesied the Rapture and end of the world on 5 different occasions.

Seventh Day Adventists

The Seventh Day Adventist Church is also an unbiblical cult that has no part with Biblical Christianity. Like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, they have an extra-Biblical source. They view the writings of their prophetess, Ellen G. White, on par with the Bible, in particular her book The Great Controversy. Additionally, they believe in works-based salvation primarily based on “keeping Sabbath”, which in their doctrine equals going to church service on Saturday. Here are a sampling of White’s writings on the 144,000:

Strive to Be Among the 144,000 “Let us strive with all the power that God has given us to be among the hundred and forty-four thousand. And let us do all that we can to help others to gain heaven.” -Review and Herald; March 9, 1905.

Mrs. White and the 144,000 “The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. . . . I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, ‘You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000,* shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God.”-Early Writings, pp. 39, 40.

Mrs. Hastings to Be With the 144,000 “I saw that she [Mrs. Hastings, who had just died] was sealed and would come up at the voice of God and stand upon the earth, and would be with the 144,000. I saw we need not mourn for her; she would rest in the time of trouble.”-Letter 10, 1850 (2SM 263). (source).

First notice there is no attempt to even quote the Bible in any of these “teachings.” White simply gives her own thoughts and it is to be accepted as the Word of God. By their false doctrine, the 144,00 are the “worthy” Seventh Day Adventists who have performed enough works to earn their way into this prestigious group. They also apparently are able to travel through space and visit various planets. This is outrageous, unbiblical heresy and no further analysis is necessary.Trust God’s Word

“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – Jeremiah 33:3.

The Bible is the sole source of Christian doctrine and prophecy. And the 144,000 as described in Scripture are a very specific group of people, with a specific mission, that will be fulfilled at the start of the Great Tribulation. While the Church is brought up to Heaven at the Rapture, the 144,000 are on Earth, preparing to proclaim the Gospel to those people left behind. They will announce to Israel and the world that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the prophesied Messiah, the Alpha and Omega is indeed on His way back to Earth. And Lord willing, many people in the midst of the Great Tribulation will hear their message and believe.

To those of us who don’t believe the pre trib rapture & to those who do, I offer the following:

What harm is it if we all prepare as if we will be here to see the mark manifest & implemented? Resistance to the mark is not futile, resistance in mandatory.

Our natural man will be next to useless when the mark comes. Except to house the Holy Spirit that is!

Yeshua said we would be brought before kings & govenours, but not to worry, His Holy Spirit would empower us to speak. We are also told by Paul that nothing or anyone, at any time, in any place can separate us from the love of God. Father is that love, for God Himself is love.

Yeshua also said in the book of the Revelation 2:10 “…for ten days you will have affliction. Be loyally faithful unto death [even if you must die for it], and I will give you the crown of life.” The scriptures tell us that crowns are given out at Messiah’s appearing, per Peter & Paul. Those verses are in a post I left around here somewhere regarding the interchangeable use of 2nd advent terms.

If you disagree, fine. What I am trying to convey is that if we are pressing into Messiah as much as we can, studying His written word, are walking as best we can in the Spirit, have a strong prayer life & a good fellowship, what have we to lose? If we are preparing to resist the mark, ‘just in case’, by doing the above & whatever I left out :-), & there is a PTR, none of us will miss it.

However, if you think on any level “we don’t have to be concerned about the mark because we won’t be here”, will you be seeking the extra oil & preparing for the worst but hoping for the best, in case the Bridegroom tarries, & then comes, is made visible, appears or returns, later than you thought, AFTER the mark?

At this point I believe RFID chips will be used for the mark or maybe an invisible tattoo bar code. I also think the coming mark will cause the great falling away Paul mentioned because extra oil is lacking in those that fall away. I lean RFID cause they can send & receive signals & are better for tracking.

I oppose the PTR because it not any where directly stated in scripture & I think it has caused many believers to slack off just a bit at a crucial time. Maybe not all, but many…& because the mark is here now. There is a slight but subtle difference in keeping our eyes 100% focused on Yeshua Himself & the slight refocused diversion to watching for something He may do. Pray on that. Is your faith in Yeshua or the rapture? Where are your eyes?

Study up on RFID chips & chipping. Here is just one tip of the iceberg article on chips. There are many more articles & videos.

For Solomon collected 666 gold talents ever year as Taxes which become a burden unto the people to the beginning of Financial sorrows, for Lo at the time of Prophet Samuel they rejected the Kingship of God to make kings among them, the rejection unto this day thus forming the Beast, to its revelations by the words “Who can war with the Beast ‘ Is it not represented today by. America in all its systems, even the Sodom ? shadow-governed by ” Freemasonry through Theosophy” the Biblical false Prophet even unto its head Symbol ‘OM”, incidentally The Spiritual Babylon off the three parts that Babylon is divided even as ” one of its heads that received a deadly wound is seen rising saying the same “OM”.

In America we are required by our government to have a SS# to buy and sell. This is not what the bible is referring to. Beasts were part of the curses of the old covenant and when the Israelites broke it by fornicating with the other nations, God would punish them by sending the King of Empire to conquer, kill and enslave them and scatter them to the four winds. Anytime we read the word ‘Beast’ then all we have to do is go to the Torah to find it’s meaning. Solomon’s temple had been built by man in the image of a man and man brought man’s wages (666 talents of gold) into it. The Law forbid images of anything in heaven, earth and sea and the worship of them. The ‘idols of wood and stone’ were the wooden altar, wooden ark, stone temple, stone tablets, cherubim and other images the Israelites worshipped. They ‘worshipped the created things more than the Creator.’ The temple was built in the image of the Messiah as can be seen at templesecrets.info.

A ‘cube’ has 3 dimensions. 666 Ezekiel 40:5 KJV 5. And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man’s hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and an hand breadth: so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; (six cubits) and the height, one reed. (six cubits).

The entire measurements of the temple was 666 cubits.

The Jewish High Priest entered the Most Holy Place in the temple to offer sacrifice once a year, and he had the name of God on his forehead. The Israelites had the LAW written on their hands. It took millions of annual revenue for the temple cultus to function. One could not ‘buy and sell’ without being circumcised and obeying the laws of Moses. One who is joined to a harlot is ONE with her. The Jews were in covenant with the Romans. SHE rode the BEAST as the Queen Beatrice rode the Emperor Titus in an adulterous affair. The Hebrew assigns gender to all persons, places and things. She is Jerusalem, the center of worship for the nations.

When Adam sinned he was ‘cast out’ of his father’s PRESENCE. Thereafter one could not enter his father’s (the KING) presence unless he was summoned. God summoned 3rd party mediators/intecessors until the time of reconciliation between mankind and god. Jesus came to restore what Adam lost by reconciling us to our father again so we could commune ‘face to face’ directly without the 3rd party mediators. They were ‘cast out’ of the kingdom 70 AD and the kingdom was given to a spiritual nation of Israelites.

Paul taught the gospel of reconciliation. 2 Cor 15:18-24. The goal/telos of all previous ages was to reconcile the two alienated parties. The old covenant age was ending in the first century and did not pass until the destruction of all the old elements of Judiasm and the temple cultus and earthly kingdom.

The bible is about the dichotomy of the flesh versus the spirit. Seen vs unseen. Temporal vs eternal. External vs Internal.

Two seeds, two trees, two mountains, two women, two cities. One of the flesh vs one of the spirit.

2 Cor 4: 18. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Jesus forbid spiritual authorities 2000 years ago. Matt 23:8-10 ‘Do not call anyone ‘Father, Rabbi, Teacher, Reverend, Bishop, Pastor’ or any other title of authority over you because you are all ONE (family with the same status and all have the same access to the father) . If you have been reconciled to the father you have the same TEACHER the disciples had. 2 Cor 3:17. God is spirit. No one has ever or can ever SEE god with their physical eyes. They see him with their eyes of understanding and commune with him ‘face to face.’ That is a Hebrew idiom meaning ‘directly/without a mediator.’ Jesus came to reverse what Adam had done. What did we have to do with being ‘born in sin?’ It was a gift from Adam. Adam was ‘cast out’ of his father’s presence and only those summoned could enter thereafter, such as priests, prophets until the time of reconciliation. That came with the destruction of the temple cultus, priesthood and 3rd party mediators. Anyone, anytime, anywhere can enter his presence without a mediator and without going anywhere, without tithing, without going to a manmade church and giving reverence to another sovereign besides the father himself. Jesus is the eternal father, the spirit. Is 9:6,7. Spirit means ‘breath.’ When Jesus’ work was finished at the end of the first century he returned to his former POSITION in the midst (center) of the throne. The throne motif is about authority. The wedding motif is about god and mankind being reconciled via the spirit. We are not ‘bondservants’ nor are we ‘firstfruits.’ The Virgin Bride was the 144,000 firstfruits who were worthy to rule and reign with Christ judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Past event. We are not slaves to a MASTER but SONS and Daughters of the FATHER, born after the consumation of the marriage.

The bible wasn’t written TO US. It was written to THEM before the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea 70 AD. Paul said in his letter from prison to Timothy, 2 Tim 1;15 ‘All in ASIA have abandoned me.’ All the churches had apostacized by the year 66 AD when Paul penned that letter and the Jewish rebellion against the Roman occupation began. Revelation was written to ‘bondservants’ REV 1:1 (only the nation of Israel were slaves to a Master) during the tribulation. REV 1:9. The end of all things old covenant was NEAR to them. 1 Pet 4:7. The old things were ‘passing away.’ Heb 8:13. They passed. It is finished. We have been reconciled to our father.

“No longer will they say, ‘Know the Lord, for they will all know me from the least to the greatest.” Jer 31:34; fulfilled Heb 8:11.

the 144,000 are all men and virgins, does this mean women are inferior here ? If the men are married they are not virgins and cannot be numbered ? could it be an allegory that means their hearts are virgin like ? espoused as a chase virgin to Christ , Paul said that. referring to men and womens hearts. What do you think ?

John, ‘virgins’ in the context of the chapt. in Revelation refers to those who have not taken in false teachings & given themselves over to false religions & keep clean of spiritual Babylon. That is, they have no spiritual intercourse with any thing out side the Word & the Holy Spirit.

Paul teaches us that there are no male or female distinctions in the Holy Spirit. Any vessel that the Spirit moves though is always ‘male’, in the Spirit. Yeshua is looking for yielded to Him vessels. If a female in the physical is moved on by the Holy Spirit she can do anything or occupy any position the Holy Spirit guides her to.

In the home the wife is to defer to her husband as there he is the head of the house. But Yeshua should be head of Him & he should have enough wisdom to know that the Lord can also speak to him through her.

God is not a ‘male’ in the physical sense, butm is ALWAYS referred to in the

I hit ‘post’ by accident before I was finished. Sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever get used to this laptop. I’ll finish my post now.

God is not a ‘male’ in the physical sense, but is ALWAYS referred to in the Bible in the masculine gender, most often as “He” & “Father”. Poppa is ‘male’ in the sense that He is the one who implants spiritual seed in us when we are born again, which is the spiritual life of Christ. He is also the Father of all creation because He made everything, though He Himself is a spiritual Being.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

When a person is ministering under the anointing of the Spirit, that one is spiritually male, regardless of physical gender. Those receiving the ministry, usually the spoken or read Word, are female in the sense that they are being implanted with the anointed Word.

Here are some verses that show that in the Spirit there are no gender distinctions.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy [telling forth the divine counsels] and your young men shall see visions (divinely granted appearances), and your old men shall dream [divinely suggested] dreams.

Romans 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Galatians 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

Galatians 4:6 And because you [really] are [His] sons, God has sent the [Holy] Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba (Father)! Father!

And the most familiar verse,

Galatians 3:28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The key to this is to be in Christ Jesus & under the influence of His Holy Spirit.

“Every male that opens the womb is Holy unto God” since God is Holy so is His Express Image. In that image was Adam created, from whom was the woman created “For the man was not created for the woman but the woman for the man” The word woman is to means the womb of the man, by which he generates himself as an act of God (against the feminist agendas of might & right specifically when it comes to Abortion, is but again the lack of Love & Faith). The highest of names is the word “Father” & to this, Motherhood is not an Exclusive but an Inclusive term. To know the heart of the Holy Spirit & the Son is the word” Abba-Father” respectively given unto man to call upon. For they always give the best. Moreover in biological terms to the X & Y chromsomes it is the male factor that decides the gender of the infant. All this is but indicates that that there is an element of gender in God. Beware of the viles of the devil, to altering scriptures even to the gender neutral bibles. This again but happens due to the complacency of man unto his God given responsibilities, complacent to its very marker come today “The Sodom”. being pushed from the west & the spirit behind that points to the many alters figured in the British Freemasonic Israeli supreme court ” The Vishnu” unto its avatars, the Lie to the strong delusion from God ’cause they love not His truth, is also to remember that when it comes to the violation of His commandment given in the Spirit- was Adam “Why did you harken unto thy wife”.?

Abey, I don’t understand very much of your post. It doesn’t make much sense. Not trying to be mean or any thing, but I just don’t understand what you mean.

There is no physical gender in a spirit.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should tell or act a lie, neither the son of man, that He should feel repentance or compunction [for what He has promised].

John 4:24 God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

As I said above, “God is not a ‘male’ in the physical sense, but is ALWAYS referred to in the Bible in the masculine gender, most often as “He” & “Father”. Poppa is ‘male’ in the sense that He is the one who implants spiritual seed in us when we are born again, which is the spiritual life of Christ. He is also the Father of all creation because He made everything, though He Himself is a spiritual Being.”

Also reread Galatians 3:28 posted above. Thanks.

I also do not subscribe to genderless Bibles nor trying to say Elohim is a woman or female.

The invisible image of God is the visible Jesus unto his words “Seeing me is seeing the Father”. Now God said “Let us make man in our Image” So he created Adam & out of Adam created He the woman meaning, the He includes the she just as the word Man includes the woman. For in the spirit this cannot be separated (Its corruption is the term “unisex” to the image of the goat of Mendes, which is what you are coming too even though you try to mean the other, to the reason why the Bible says of woman not to dress as male & vice versa to distinguish their own given characters) So the gender of God is in his image. & when it comes to worship in spirit & truth it involves no image in any form whatsoever (to the words there is no Jew or Gentile , Male or Female etc) to His first Commandment. which is unto man to the reason as to why the commandment always stands) For when Moses saw God he saw no image but then in acts Moses talked with him as a friend, face to face. This is the reason I asked you in the first place the words of Jesus “You know not the Father neither the Son but them unto whom the Son pleases to reveal” This is understandable only as it is written. So if you have not ,why make a mountain even twist the Bible instead of taking the words as it is written for He means Male which includes the female as was Adam & then Eve created in His own Image, in His own likeness.

In the words Body , Soul & Spirit there is no notion of a gender but the words “Father, Son , Holy Spirit does denote a gender. Now do the words Body, Soul & Spirit contain in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit or are the words Father, Son, Holy Spirit contained in Body, Soul & Spirit . Its as reducing Christ to a “conscience” to a new age belief, instead of a whole. ‘I AM” said God unto Moses. So is it something that makes the I AM or is the I AM that makes the something, for in the former sense god becomes a created one” but that becomes untrue for he is the creator, & the creator cannot be created which means He has no Beginning or End to the very term “I AM”-The Life & God said “Let us make man in our Image & Likeness . So in the image of God created he him : Male & Female created he them. Now what does the word “Likeness'”stand for ?

So “Likeness & Image’ means the same, so just a repetition ? . You cannot be dividing the word of God this way , but be specific? ,cause its understanding goes way deep as to why the Bible describes God as “He” by the male gender as I told you, it is inclusive & not exclusive of the female .Please know that I stick to the Bible in the Spirit of the word & since you like to “Quote Scriptures” where in the Bible does it state expressively that the word “He” is not in the Gender of God be it Physically or Spiritually . By your “Quoting scriptures” is not the point but revealing is the point & to this you beat about the bush To the gender question of ‘body soul & spirit you have not answered it. As for the “Consciousness” part stated is only in terms of similarity the same way you make of the Image, seemingly ignorant that the Bible calls of Christ as the Express image of God, the one in Rev 1 to His Spiritual self ., the visible image of God expressively . I stand by the warning against gender neutral Bible- twisting the original context. in its meanings making it to an acceptable form , Lo for popularity sakes, in the same way that hollywood makes its so called christian movies today , some even going to the extent of Quoting & twisting scriptures to making Sodom acceptable to the sodomites & others even calling it as a gift from god. Ever since the Protestantism there has been about 40,000 divisions & more so by the day, each interpreting the Bible in his own way, when the truth is only one, to this in terms of the religion, even christian, there is the Anglicism by its Hierarchy & its episcopals seeking political correctness leading the way – to hell.

Abby, I don’t know much of what you are talking about. Most of what you post is incoherent. Incomplete sentences & all.

I already posted the answers to your Q’s. Read what I said. I have not said anything untrue.

Read the verses I left. The Spirit of the Word starts with the verses IN the Word, not the other way round.

That’s about all I have to say. If you can get some one to help you write something understandable, I’ll reply. But I won’t bother to answer what is pretty much gibberish. No insult intended, but you don’t know how to write.

Substances joined together makes the life where the substances have no gender the Life has, so the question comes back to what makes the substance? In plain language you seem adamant on projecting the gender neutral bibles contrary to the traditional understandings & when this is pointed out with scriptural clarifications you then say “not understandable” ? This is more than just beating about the bush. For the last time where in the Bible does it expressively say that the word “He” is not in the gender of God, be it Physically Or Spiritually” For your information my wordings which you term as “Language” remains unchanged, for from the word it is the essence that which is revealed & it comes only by the Spirit, where by the language becomes immaterial, is the reason why you find it gibberish, for we are talking more than just history or science- its Faith.

26 God said, Let Us **[Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]** make mankind in Our *image*, after Our *likeness*, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth.

27 So God created man in *His own image*, in the *image* and *likeness* of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Note that when Father created man, Adam contained both male & female. Poppa put Adam to sleep & took a rib from Adam’s side & formed a woman.

What I find to be gibberish is your sentence structure, run on sentences & lack of over all understandability. Can you get some one to help you write? Please do that!

Show me via a scripture where I am mishandling the Word. Show me that the verses I used & where my comments about them are out of line. Where have I written anything that is gender neutral.

The verses I used speak for them selves.

God is not a man…true or false?

A spirit has no gender…true or false?

Not sure if I posted this verse:

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrected state neither do [men] marry nor are [women] given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven.

Angels are gender neutral but look like men.

I said Father is a Spirit. Yeshua said He is. I posted that verse. Is Elohim a Spirit or not? Yes or no.

I also explained that Father IS referred to as male because He is the source of all life & the creator of everything. Is that true or not? Yes or no.

Later I said Yeshua is a Man with physical male gender. After the resurrection of Messiah & after Paul’s conversion, Paul refers to Messiah in Romans 5:15 & 17 as “…the Man, Jesus Christ.” Yeshua is now a combination of the physical & spirit. He said a spirit doesn’t have flesh & bone like He had.

Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself! Feel and handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.

Since Father is a Spiritual Being, He can’t be a male in the physical sense, but He refers to Himself as male because He is the source of all.

Thanks for your comments. Please note that many visitors from our site are from nations aside from the United States. Not everyone’s first language is English. If you are having trouble understanding someone’s writing, there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification. However, repeated mocking is unnecessary and not reflective of a Christian spirit.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;– 1 Corinthians 13:2, 3-4.

I didn’t mock abey. That’s an assumption on your part. I did make some comments regarding how difficult it is to understand the postings, which is true. The attitude of mocking was never in my heart. I understand that just reading a printed sentence is not the same as hearing it spoken. When one hears a spoken sentence the attitude & heart of the speaker is much more obvious, so no worries on your misunderstanding what I was trying to convey & the state of mind & heart I was in.

Angels can ‘appear’ as male or female, but that doesn’t prove they are ‘actually’ men or women or male & female, as we know the distinctions on earth. There was an angel expert on In The Market With Janet Parshall who claims that angels are gender neutral. You’d like her, she’s pro PTR also. 🙂

“Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrected state neither do [men] marry nor are [women] given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven.

Angels are gender neutral but look like men.”

This is not the meaning of the passage you cited. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that “angels are gender neutral.” Simialrly we are not told that about God. When The Lord said that men and women who are glorified in Heaven will be like the angels and not marry, it was because we will be immortal. We can know this from the corresponding passage in Luke:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. – Luke 20:35-36.

Angels in Scripture who are called “men” are called such because that is their gender. Just as the female angels are called “Women.”:

Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. 10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base. – Zechariah 5:9-11.

So they do indeed have gender. Which is why Scripture very plainly describes them as such. Just as God the Father is described with the terms “He” and “His.” And of course The Lord Jesus Christ, who is the express image of God, is obviously male. I hope that clarifies things because I believe your interpretations on this topic have been off in several major areas. If you have any questions or comments, I welcome them. God bless. -B&E

The Hebrew language applies gender to all persons, places and things. In the beginning god created in his image: both poles of polarity. Both “+” and “-” are ONE. One cannot exist without the other as that is god’s image. It is plainly seen in creation and undeniable. Examine a battery or study and atom. It takes both poles to empower, create or light up anything. No good without evil; no life without death; no positive without negative. All things god created are GOOD. (They work together for our good.) God put “+” in a deep sleep and removed “-” from him. Scientists recently discovered that the human rib is the only bone in the body that reproduce. Adam knew this thousands of years ago. Is 45:7. The universe functions exactly as god created it to in the beginning. When Adam sinned he was ‘cast out’ of his father’s PRESENCE. Thereafter Adam and all who came afterward were DEAD in relationship to their father. No one could enter his Presence without being summoned. God summoned a few priests, prophets, to offer sacrifice and relay his messages to the alienated parties until reconciliation came. Mediators/intecessors were necessary until 70 AD when all those old things were destroyed in the fire, ceremonial worship, temple cultus and everything pertaining to the 3rd party mediators. We have been reconciled to our father and can enter his presence without being summoned anytime, anywhere. We all have the same status in the family and are not to elevate anyone over us in the spiritual realm. Jesus forbid spiritual authorities 2000 yrs ago. Matt 23:8-10. Elevating someone means you do not have the TEACHER, the SOVEREIGN LORD as your TEACHER. 2 Cor 3:17. The old things were ‘passing away’ in the first century. They passed 70 AD. The marriage and wedding motif is about god and mankind being reconciled via the spirit and communing ‘face to face’ with our father, as Adam did in the beginning. ‘We have been raised up with Christ’ and our POSITION in the family has been restored.

The bible is a complete, concise account of the beginning and the end. The end was of the old covenant ‘age/aion’ not of the world. ”The earth abides forever.” It is good and its Creator is not going to destroy it. The KJV rendered words to agree with established religion in the 16th century. The same doctrines Paul warned about before his martyrdom. The trinity and hell doctrines are not taught in the bible. Paul never mentions a ‘hell’ and if you study the words the KJV rendered as ‘HELL’ your eyes of understanding will be opened. Their is only ONE GOD (both spiritual forces of positive and negative) and he does not share his glory with another. Jesus was god manifest. ‘If you have seen me you have seen the father.’

Religion has lied to maintain it’s power over the dumb sheep. Sheep are actually not dumb but have herd mentality. They will literally follow the leader off a cliff. This is what religion is doing to the masses.

Jesus came to restore what Adam lost: our relationship with our father. Do you have relationship or religion? We can commune ‘face to face’ (Hebrew idiom meaning ‘directly/without mediators’) NOW.

I haven’t read the whole article yet as I’m busy with something else right now, but two things jump out at me. First we believers go through the GT and rapture happens on the same day Jesus returns we don’t go to heaven we will rule with Jesus here on earth, He tells us several times in several places to stand to the end, also why does it say God has prepared a place for believers to be safe, and fed for 3 1/2 years, the woman who gave birth to the male child in Rev. Why do this if we go to heaven before wormwood passes by? Also 144,000 are sealed they go out after all hell breaks loose to be a witness against the nations, as in hear the true gospel you now have no excuse for your unbelief they are sealed so no one can harm them including the elements, wind, fire, eartgquake, volcanic ash and dust, etc…bitter waters looters all these things. I will come back and read whole article later, thanks for your website. God Bless

Where does it say that we’ll be going through the Tribulation? Everything I’ve read so far seems to indicate that we’ll be removed. I mean, 1 Thes. 5-9 “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Now the Great Tribulation is associated with God pouring out His wrath upon the Earth. There are also many types and shadows that indicate that Jesus will take his bride before the coming disasters.

With the archetype of Noah, we see that a type of the church (Enoch) is taken up bodily to be with the Lord. Noah (the cast of the Jews) are made to go through the Tribulation.

With Daniel, Daniel is type cast of the Bride being removed from danger before the Jews Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are placed in the 7x hotter furnace.

There’s lots of types and shadows going on to indicate that Jesus will indeed come back from his bride and pull us to Him.. otherwise how else are we going to encourage each other with these words?

It is my thought that the believers converted after the Rapture occurs will be provided with that safe place in Petra (I think that’s it) from the Antichrist’s eye. However those who are killed for Christ’s sake during this time period (who do not denounce Him) will be the “tribulation saints”. We are all saints in the Body, why make the specification about being a tribulation saint?

i really hope you’re right, but people assume Enoch was taken to heaven and is with God, but all it says is God took him, doesn’t say where, maybe Enoch was about to die you know he was old maybe God took him and buried him in a place no one knows? Also when the rapture happens the dead in christ are ressurrected at the same time, as matter of fact they get resurrected first, then those alive are changed, to meet in the air. Believe me I hope we aren’t here but from what I read we are, just protected, the resurrection happens at Christs second coming, this is why I believe we are here just protected and feed like in the Exodus, there were no sick, their shoes didn’t wear out, clothes etc… they were fed and had water etc… I guess well see soon, the middle east war is next big thing to happen then Israel will start to build the third temple they can’t do that until they possess the temple mount again, can’t do that until etc…and so on…thanks for replying, teri

CLT, also Hebrews says Enoch was taken because he pleased Father. I have yet to hear a good explanation of how E could be a type of a rapture regarding the vast amount of time between E going & the flood coming.

Just because a few were taken doesn’t prove anything regarding Yeshua’s 2nd coming /revelation/appearing.

I do know that before about 1835 no Bible commentator, Like Adam Clark, says anything about a 2 stage, separated 7 years 2nd advent of Messiah that leaves future members of His body behind.

You can’t based doctrine on typology. Nowhere in the entire Bible does it say that Enoch is a type of the raptured church. What it DOES say is that the Flood is a type of baptism that saves us. In other words, the Flood represents our being buried with Christ in baptism, while the Ark setting down on Ararat on the feast of firstfruits, represents our (Christ and those who belong to Him) resurrection. Neither does the Bible say that Daniel is a type of the Church. Even so, wasn’t Daniel thrown into the Lion’s Den? As for the Great Tribulation being the wrath of God, the Bible doesn’t say this either. Nor does it say that the Tribulation is 7 years long. Daniel’s 70th is 7 years long. This 7 year period is NEVER called the Tribulation anywhere in the Bible. It is speculation, and an assumption. The first half is relatively peaceful, but the Abomination that causes desolation in the middle of the seven initiates the Great Tribulation when the Antichrist persecutes the saints. The Day of the Lord and God’s wrath begins “after the tribulation of those days.” Here are more assumptions not supported by Scripture: 1) The 24 elders represent the previously raptured church. Even if they do represent the Church, it doesn’t imply a rapture. Even now, at this very moment, we are raised up and seated with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians). 2) The Holy Spirit is the restrainer. 3) The 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who witness during the Tribulation. 4) Matthew 24 is only for the Jews. 5) The word “church” is not mentioned after Revelation 3, therefore it means they were raptured to heaven. Hmm. John sees events in heaven throughout the entire book, but he doesn’t see the Church there either. Maybe it’s because the elect and the saints ARE the Church. 6) “Tribulation saints” are not Church saints. 7) The Day of the Lord = God’s wrath = 7 year Tribulation. Again, there is no 7 year Tribulation. In addition, Matthew 24, Joel 2 and Acts 2 all clearly tell us that the Day of the Lord begins with the sun, moon and stars being darkened and the heavenly bodies being shaken, and the Son of Man sending His angels to gather the elect. This is without a doubt “after the tribulation of those days, which is after the abomination that causes desolation. I could go on and on and on and on, but this is enough.

Thanks for your comments. I want to respond to one point you made, which was your first in this comment:

“You can’t based doctrine on typology.”

With all due respect I could not disagree with this more. Not only does the Bible teach by typology, The Lord confirmed it in the Gospels repeatedly.

The Passover Lamb was a type and shadow of Jesus Christ

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. – John 1:29.

The Manna in the wilderness was a type of Jesus Christ

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. – John 6:49-51.

The brazen serpent was a type and shadow of salvation in Jesus Christ through the cross.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. – John 3:14-15.

Light is a type of Jesus Christ

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. – John 8:12.

And these are just a few examples. The Bible is FULL Of typology. It has precisely how The Lord has chosen to teach us through His Holy Word. Enoch (and Elijah for that matter) are obvious types of the raptured church. They were snatched up to Heaven and never died. And we are specifically told in Hebrews 11 that Enoch was translated:

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.-Hebrews 11:5.

So just as the church will be translated, Enoch already was, and he was snatched into the air to be with The Lord, just as the church. AND he was translated before the flood judgment. Just as the church will be translated before the Day of The Lord.

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. – Luke 17:26.

If you are rejecting typology as doctrine, you are missing out on a lot of Biblical teaching. I humbly and prayerfully urge you to reconsider. God bless. -B&E

Typology is important, as long as the way it’s used & defined doesn’t contradict other scripture. For instance, the tabernacle in the wilderness is a type of Messiah. The moon is a type of the church. The passover lamb in the OT is a type of Messiah.

To say that those taken to heaven are a type of the church, like Elijah & Enoch, is not supported by scripture as types of a pre trib rapture of the church.

Saying they are is to contradict what Yeshua said in the parable of the wheat & darnel [tares in KJ] when HE said ‘let them grow together until the harvest’. He goes on to say the harvest is the end of the age.

Yeshua HIMSELF kills off the idea that His 2nd advent is in 2 stages, separated by 7 years that leaves future members of His body behind.

The PTR teaching is 100% based on eisegesis, where meaning & definition are laid onto the scripture rather than taken from them.

It would be good to look up

The Difference Between Exegesis And Eisegesis

Yeshua also said that he that endures to the END would be saved. In the parable He tells us when the end is, at the end of the age. Look up what He said about when He would raise up ALL His own. Hint: It’s at the last day. 🙂

Also look up what Corrie ten Boom said about the PTR teaching & teachers. Go 1st to

endtimepilgrim . org

and look for

Corrie ten Boom and the rapture

Corrie got it!! May you my dear family of bothers & sister wake up to what she says.

We have a 3 part series on the Rapture that I welcome you to read. If you have particular Scriptural applications you take issue with, please feel free to share them. An open ended Rapture discussion can be very difficult. I find it much more fruitful to debate it if there are particular passages we are examining.

As for The Lord saying “let them grow until the end of the harvest” – there is an important end times distinction between the Church and the believing remnant of Israel. The Church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. The Believing Remnant come to saving faith DURING the Great Tribulation. We go first, they come second. This is why The Lord says “the first shall be last and the last shall be first.” This is why throughout the Old Testament we have situations of two siblings being born and the SECOND one gets the blessing, while the first one is passed over. Ishmael and Isaac. Jacob and Esau. Manasseh and Ephraim. And many more examples. The Lord uses this typology to show the Church and Israel. Paul makes this clear in Romans 11:

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. – Romans 11:7-10

Israel, corporately, has rejected Jesus and thus salvation. This was prophesied throughout the Old Testament. Paul quotes David to support this. This is the state of corporate Israel today. And I say corporate because there are elect Israelites being saved today (i.e. Messianic Jews).

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? – Romans 11:11-12.

Paul now shows the sequence – the spritual blindness of Israel led to the Gospel being delivered to the world and thus the Church being born. And now we as Christians are to proclaim the Gospel and live for Christ in order to “provoke them to jealousy.” The ultimate provocation being when we are raptured to Heaven first. And this will be followed by the redemption of Israel.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? – Romans 11:13-15.

This again shows that salvaion by grace through faith in Christ will happen to Israel. But AFTER Christians have provoked them to look to us and our beliefs.

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. – Romans 11:16-18

Now Christians are told not to get puffed up because we have received salvation first. This is confirming the “switch” that we see all throughout the Old testament. The Church is the “second child” and the outsider (the wild branch) yet we receive the birthright of the firstborn natural child. And we are not to boast in this because all of this was done through Christ not our own “good works.”

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

So now we see that the natural branches were broken off. Then the wild branches (the Church) were grafted into the tree. And the wild branches thrived. Paul follows this up by saying if the wild branches which were not from olive trees could be grafted in, how much more will the cut off olive branches thrive when grafted back into their own olive tree? Again, it is a sequence. We go first. They come second. They are the ones enduring to the end. They are the ones raised “on the last day.” The Church is gone because we get the blessing first.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.

And this brings it home. Romans 11:25 is one of the most important verses in the Bible for understanding the end times. Israel will not even BEGIN to lose their spiritual blindness until the full number of the Church is reached. So we can know for a surety that the reconcilliation of Israel takes place AFTER the Church is complete. We leave, provoking them to jealousy. And God now pours out a double portion of His Spirit on them. He pours out the Spirit of grace reconciliation as described in Ezekiel 36.

Think back to Elijah and Elisha. Right before Elijah is raptured what does Elisha ask for?

9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan; 14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over. 2 Kings 2:9-14.

Elijah (type of the church) tells Elisha (type of Believing Israel): “If you see me when I go, then you will receive the double portion of the blessing of God.” Elisha then sees Elijah raptured and weeps in repentance, tearing his mantle. And of course he does indeed receive the double portion blessing. This is precisely what is going to happen to believing Israel. They will see US get raptued and start looking to God again in repentance. Hence Elisha saying “Where is the God of Elijah” and right after he is able to part water via a Divine miracle. God confirmed that His Spirit was indeed with him.

Why do we need to go to Corre Ten Boom when we have the power of Scripture at our fingertips? I hope you give some consideration to the many rich typologies in Scripture because they reveal so much regarding Bible prophecy.

One more small type and shadow – When Elijah (type of church) first gave his mantle (the Holy Spirit blessing) to Elisha (type of Israel), Elisha just happened to be leading twelve oxen.

Very interesting and insightful. However, I do disagree with you on your final point. I see Elijah as a picture of Jesus and Elisha as Jesus’ disciples (12), the beginnings of the church, to whom Jesus said in John 14:12; Truly I tell you that whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and even greater things as I go to the Father (just a Elijah ascended). And like the requirement placed upon Elisha, it was only those disciples who witnessed Jesus’ ascension who would carry on the mantle/works of Jesus. If this is true, where does Paul fit in, not having personally witnessed the ascension?

B & E, regarding Jesus’ 2nd advent, the church ‘leaving’ & Israel ‘staying’ to be dealt with & a lot of the Jews getting saved, Jesus Himself shot that down in John 6.

Jesus makes it impossible for their to be a separation between Jews or anyone else being saved after the so called rapture.

John 6:39 Amplified Classic

And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should not lose any of all that He has given Me, but that I should give new life and raise [them all] up at the last day.

Jesus repeats all that in verses 40, 44 & 54. Every one who has ever been saved by Jesus will get raised up & transformed at the same day, the last one. John 6:48 says the same thing about the lost, they will be judged at the last day.

Paul says the same thing when he speaks about the 2nd advent & our being transformed & given a new body.

1 Cor. 15 51 Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call.

Jesus said “all”, Paul said “all”. Jesus said “at the last day” & “end of the age”, Paul said “at the last trump”…The only dichotomy in the Book is between saint & sinner. Converted Jews & gentiles are called to one body, Paul said of Christ–

Ephesians 2:15 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

14 For He is [Himself] our peace (our bond of unity and harmony). He has made us both [Jew and Gentile] one [body], and has broken down (destroyed, abolished) the hostile dividing wall between us, 15 By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace. 16 And [He designed] to reconcile to God both [Jew and Gentile, united] in a single body by means of His cross, thereby killing the mutual enmity and bringing the feud to an end. [I added nothing.]

So we see that what is said by the PTR thing about ‘the time of Jacob’s trouble’ separating Jew & non Jew is just not Biblical. Add that to [read the whole chapter for more]

Galatians 4: Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC) 23 But whereas the child of the slave woman was born according to the flesh and had an ordinary birth, the son of the free woman was born in fulfillment of the promise. 24 Now all this is an allegory; these [two women] represent two covenants. One covenant originated from Mount Sinai [where the Law was given] and bears [children destined] for slavery; this is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is (stands for) Mount Sinai in Arabia and she corresponds to and belongs in the same category with the present Jerusalem, for she is in bondage together with her children.

The above tells us where natural Israel stands. Not good.

Paul says that Abraham, who was a pagan when Elohim called him, is the father of us all, Jew & gentile, if we are in Christ. Helps to read the whole chapter.

Romans 4: 16 Therefore, [inheriting] the promise is the outcome of faith and depends [entirely] on faith, in order that it might be given as an act of grace (unmerited favor), to make it stable and valid and guaranteed to all his descendants—not only to the devotees and adherents of the Law, but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, who is [thus] the father of us all.

B & E, can you show us where any Bible Commentary that came out before 1830 & before Darby & Schofield got together in about 1835, also teaches the two stage 2nd advent of Jesus, aka the pre trib rapture so it can be verified that Darby is not the one who brought the PTR teaching to the USA?

Thanks for your comments. I think we have to be very careful about who the “we” is when it comes to prophetic Scripture. Revelation 13 is quite clear that the Antichrist will defeat and kill the saints.

” And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” – Revelation 13:7.

The Antichrist will kill the Christians who are saved during the Great Tribulation (all other Christians will have been raptured before then). He will wage war against them and win. He will also behead those who refuse the Mark of The Beast. There is no safe haven for Christians in the Great Tribulation.

If you are referring to Revelation 12, the group that is given protection from satan is Israel, not the Church. These are two distinct groups all through Scripture.

As for the 144,000 being protected from all sorts of natural disasters and afflictions, I do not see the Scriptural support for that. So I am not sure where you are getting that from. but please feel free to clarify or provide any more commentary you have. Thanks and God bless.

The “group” that’s given protection is Israel? What does that mean? I hope you’re not referring to the evil Zionists who now rule there. In my humble estimation, the 144,000 is a symbolic number that refers to all righteous people wherever they may be.

“The “group” that’s given protection is Israel? What does that mean? I hope you’re not referring to the evil Zionists who now rule there. In my humble estimation, the 144,000 is a symbolic number that refers to all righteous people wherever they may be.”

The ethnic Israelites who will comprise the 144,000 could be anywhere in the world. The Scriptures make it abundantly clear that the members of the 12 tribes have been scattered all over the world. Could some of those living in the nation of Israel be a part of the 144,000? Absolutely. The fact that Israelites today do not believe the Gospel only confirms Scripture. Israel, corporately, walks in blindness until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So rejecting Jesus as Savior is merely fulfilling the Bible. Everything you said could have been said about the Apostle Paul prior to his conversion. Yet I assume you accept him as a Christian brother today? Let us not boast against the natural branch, because their error led to our received grace.

As for the 144,000 being “symbolic” I could not agree more. There is nothing in the text to conclude this number is symbolic. Especially when the chapter goes to great lengths to identify how this group is comprised of the various tribes. Understanding the difference between the Church and Israel in the end times is a critical element of dividing end times Bible prophecy. Even if we disagree, I hope this comment at least clarifies my position. God bless. -B&E

Excellent reply, but I hold “the apostle” Paul in question. I do not know what his true motives were or what the real story with him is. We’ll find out those truths on the Day of Justice. There’s really nothing you said that I disagree with, but I find these issues remain a mystery till the appointed time.

15 And consider that the long-suffering of our Lord [His slowness in avenging wrongs and judging the world] is salvation (that which is conducive to the soul’s safety), even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him, 16 Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.

Note that Peter equates Paul’s words to “the rest of the scriptures”. Peter bears a positive witness to what Paul wrote.

Israel means inheritance. The scriptures do Prophesize this inheritance, which is to a future gathering unto Himself & it does not relate to any physical land, for the land is Himself. This is the promise, the whole truth of the Covenant, which commenced Physically come Spiritually , Zionism by the gathering in violence through freemasonry is contrary to the Biblical Prophecy.-which says Just as Moses saw the inheritance upon the Mount so will them who are gathered in Him. Relating the words of Our Lord of the manner. “You know not the Father neither The Son, but them unto whom the Son pleases to reveal” individually in the Spirit, the words of the prophesied gathering .

Israel is a plural term , just as Elohim the Inheritance of God in heaven so is Israel , the inheritance of God on Earth even unto the Lords prayer “Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven” Now the Elohim of God are the sons of God in heaven even unto the words in the book of Job –“When the morning stars sang together all the sons of God shouted in Joy, The Elohim to likes of Archangels Micha-EL, Gabri-EL, Rapha-EL, one of whom, Michael named the Patriarch Jacob as Israel to the ongoing covenant made with Abraham fulfilled in Christ as Children of Abraham by faith in the process of becoming unto His inheritance from earth. as Romans 8:19 says “Creature waits in earnest anticipation for the manifestation of the sons of God” guided by the Elohim, unto the Prophesied Inheritance & this is the meaning of “Israel”. “EL” is the word for God that which Jesus called on the Cross.

Ro. 9 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and as far as His natural descent was concerned, from them is the Christ, Who is exalted and supreme over all, God, blessed forever! Amen (so let it be). 6 However, it is not as though God’s Word had failed [coming to nothing]. For it is not everybody who is a descendant of Jacob (Israel) who belongs to [the true] Israel. 7 And they are not all the children of Abraham because they are by blood his descendants. No, [the promise was] Your descendants will be called and counted through the line of Isaac [though Abraham had an older son].

Ro. 4 [read the whole chapter] 16 Therefore, [inheriting] the promise is the outcome of faith and depends [ENTIRELY] ON FAITH, in order that it might be given as an act of grace (unmerited favor), to make it stable and valid and guaranteed to all his descendants—not only to the devotees and adherents of the Law, but ALSO TO THOSE who share the FAITH of Abraham, who is [thus] the father of us all. [EMPHASIS added.]

Who are ‘those’ ? John 17 [Read the whole chapter.] 20 Neither for these alone do I pray [it is not for their sake only that I make this request], but also for all those who will ever come to believe in (trust in, cling to, rely on) Me through their word and teaching, 21 That they all may be one, [just] as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe and be convinced that You have sent Me. [There is no dichotomy here! 🙂 ]

Gal. 6 15 For neither is circumcision [now] of any importance, nor uncircumcision, but [only] a new creation [the result of a new birth and a new nature in Christ Jesus, the Messiah]. 16 Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule [who discipline themselves and regulate their lives by this principle], even upon the [true] Israel of God!

Gal. 4 25 Now Hagar is (stands for) Mount Sinai in Arabia and she corresponds to and belongs in the same category with the present Jerusalem, for she is in bondage together with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above (the Messianic kingdom of Christ) is free, and SHE is our mother. [Caps for emphasis.]

Ro. 2 28 For he is not a [real] Jew who is only one outwardly and publicly, nor is [true] circumcision something external and physical. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual and not a literal [matter]. His praise is not from men but from God.

Kinda sheds a new light on who really are Jews, Jerusalem & what Father has in His mind.

Yeshua said of OT Judaism in Mth. 5 17 Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but TO COMPLETE AND FULFILL THEM. 18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until ALL THINGS [IT FORESHADOWS ARE ACCOMPLISHED. Emphasis in caps added.

What is emphasized above Messiah accomplished. It’s a whole new ballgame on a higher spiritual level. The Law has been set aside & replaced, not thrown out or destroyed. Yeshua boiled the Law down to love our Father with all our being & love our neighbor as ourselves. Love is fulfilling the Law. Yeshua is love…

Yeshua Messiah Himself has replaced everything in the OT regarding the Law. The church did NOT replace Israel, Messiah did. That is why HE is the way, the truth & the life & why no one can come to Father but by Him.

Yeshua is the Ark of the Covenant. He is the temple, we are living stones being built into HIM. He is all in all. He is the One exalted higher than anything…At the Mt/ of Transfiguration, after Moses & Elijah had gone, Father said this is My beloved Son. You hear Him!

Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to His right hand to be Prince and Leader and Savior and Deliverer and Preserver, in order to grant repentance to Israel and to bestow forgiveness and release from sins. Philippians 2 8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! 9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name,

We don’t need a PTR. We need a strong Bible guided relationship with our Father & His Son.

Relationship,with the Father & The Son can only be by knowing the Father & the Son , & this knowledge comes only by Revelation & not by intelligence even unto the Biblical words of the manner “Ye know not the Father, neither the Son, but them unto whom the Son pleases to reveal’. Is also to know that there is no cause for Pride for it comes not by the words of hands.

I want to know how Yeshua’s teaching of the wheat & tares fit the pre trib rapture. Yeshua is very clear that the harvest is at the end of the age & that wheat & tares grow together till then.

All Bible quotes shared here from the Amplified Bible.

He also said he that endures to the end will be saved. In the above parable He tells us when the end is, the end of the age.

Yeshua also tells us in John 6:39-40 that He will raise up ALL His own at the last day. Paul adds that will be at the last trump. The last trump of scripture is the 7th one in Revelation.

Then there is this verse, 1 Thess. 5:10, Who died for us so that whether we are still alive or are dead [at Christ’s appearing], we might live together with Him and share His life.

The PTR teaches that the rapture is when Yeshua ‘comes’ to take the church to heaven, even though there is no Bible verse that says He does that. The 2nd stage is said to be His appearing, when they say He comes in judgment.

If the PTR was actually true, shouldn’t the verse say coming, rather than His appearing?

2 Thess. 2:8 equates/combines Messiah’s coming & appearing, so we known they are the same event.

And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.

Timothy should have been told ‘…until the coming of our Lord…’ if the PTR was true.

2 Timothy 48: [As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed His appearing (His return).

Titus 2:13 Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

Even the ‘blessed hope’ verse says ‘glorious appearing’ rather than ‘comes for the church’.

I used the parable of the wheat & darnel [tares in KJ] to point out that between the planting of the good seed by the Master of the land & the false wheat by His enemy, there is NO MENTION of any kind of intervention where some of the wheat was taken [rapture] & more was planted [left behind & 144,000 revival]. It’s a straight line so to speak, between planting & harvest. No interruptions, no wheat taken from the field UNTIL the day of harvest.

Even then it says the darnel was taken 1st…hmmm…one was taken & another left…

If there were a 2 stage separated by 7 years 2nd advent, Yeshua sure missed a chance to let us know. Myself, I don’t really think He would ‘forget’ or fail to let us know. Because they do is also why I said Yeshua’s own words cancel any possibility of a pre trib rapture.

Hebrews 12 25 So see to it that you do not reject Him or refuse to listen to and heed Him Who is speaking [to you now]. For if they [the Israelites] did not escape when they refused to listen and heed Him Who warned and divinely instructed them [here] on earth [revealing with heavenly warnings His will], how much less shall we escape if we reject and turn our backs on Him Who cautions and admonishes [us] from heaven? 26 Then [at Mount Sinai] His voice shook the earth, but now He has given a promise: Yet once more I will shake and make tremble not only the earth but also the [starry] heavens. 27 Now this expression, Yet once more, indicates the final removal and transformation of **all** [that can be] shaken—that is, of that which has been created—in order that **what cannot be shaken may remain and continue.** 28 Let us therefore, receiving **a kingdom that is firm and stable and cannot be shaken**, offer to God pleasing service and acceptable worship, with modesty and pious care and godly fear and awe; 29 For our God [is indeed] a consuming fire. Emphasis added via **.

The ‘weeds’ of the wheat field are indistinguishable from wheat until the day that the crop’s owner directs His angels to gather and bind the weeds, reserving them for their ultimate burning. But even a pentacost before the wheat becomes ripe, no crops are fit/kosher until the Winter barley crop’s 1st fruits (144,000) are sealed (the ratio is 1 for 50). 144,000 sealed makes 7.2 million kosher/fit (those whom cry “b’Ruch haBa b’Shem Adonai). Do not watch the old temples’ mount and its mosque. The Law (and its giver) come from out of Zion (not Moriah) and the Lord’s Oration from Jerusalem (the new ones, lowered to fill the rift splitting the old ones). Back to oral communication and restored communion (crushed state of the serpent’s head). The former things (history) will be erased and replaced with perfection.

Brett, well, the workers were able to tell them apart. But perhaps that was in the 1st stages of growth & later they were indistinguishable. Doesn’t really matter though. It is the Lord Himself who said what He did about “the end of the age”, meaning the end of the age is when the separation takes place. Further down the chapter Yeshua repeats that the separation is at “the end of the age” in the parable of the dragnet & good & worthless fish.

The PTR is very obviously NOT the end of the age.

Then, I remind you, in John 6 He says He will raise up ALL who have EVER believed on Him at the LAST day. That fits with what He said in Matthew 13 regarding the parables mentioned above. Those statements alone make a future ‘left behind’ part of the Church impossible.

Boiled down, the PTR teaching says Jesus is coming 2 more times but the 1st one doesn’t count. At what is termed by the PTR He comes, takes away the church & later on a new set of people get saved to make up the ‘left behind’.

Also note 1 Cor. 10:13. That is the only direct statement declaration & definition of escape.

1 Corinthians 10:13Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

13 For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.

Note it says “bear up under it patiently.” It nowhere says anyone will fly anywhere or leave the earth. Our ‘landing place’ is Ps. 91, & the head cornerstone of the body of Christ.

Sounds to me like we need a strong Spirit led Bible based relationship with our Creator God, Elohim, the I AM. Instead of clinging to a man made eisegesis based ‘spare my flesh’ escapist hypothesis, the pre trib rapture, we need to be deep in His Word, His Spirit & let them take us deeper into Christ, Messiah.

What takes more faith to believe? That He will take you out before ‘it gets too bad’ or that He is able to give us the ability to make it THROUGH whatever comes in spite of whatever it is that comes against us?

Even if we must love not our lives even if it means dying…

2 Timothy 4:18. How did Paul get to Father’s heavenly kingdom? He was killed. Hebrews 11, are we better than they? Not hardly…

More on how the terms referring to the 2nd advent are interchangeable. Amplified Bible

1 Peter 1:7 So that [the genuineness] of *your faith may be tested*, [your faith] which is infinitely more precious than the perishable gold which is *tested and purified by fire*. [This proving of your faith is intended] to redound to [your] praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) is *revealed*.

1 Peter 1:13 13 So brace up your minds; be sober (circumspect, morally alert); set your hope wholly and unchangeably on the grace (divine favor) that is coming to you when Jesus Christ (the Messiah) is *revealed*. 1 Peter 4 13 But insofar as you are sharing Christ’s sufferings, rejoice, so that when *His glory* [full of radiance and splendor] *is revealed*, you may also rejoice with triumph [exultantly]. 1 Peter 5 4 And [then] when the *Chief Shepherd is revealed*, you will win the conqueror’s crown of glory. 2 Peter 3 14 So, beloved, since you are expecting these things, be eager to be found by Him [*at His coming*] without spot or blemish and at peace [in serene confidence, free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts].

Paul & Peter were on the same page regarding crowns. Peter, above, 1 Peter 5:4 and Paul in 2 Timothy 4:8 [As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed *His appearing (His return)*.

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, we are [even here and] now God’s children; it is not yet disclosed (made clear) what we shall be [hereafter], but we know that when He *comes* and is *manifested*, we shall [as God’s children] resemble and be like Him, for we shall see Him just as He [really] is. 1 John 2 28 And now, little children, abide (live, remain permanently) in Him, so that when He *is made visible,* we may have and enjoy perfect confidence (boldness, assurance) and not be ashamed and shrink from Him at His *coming*.

“Manifested” is the same as “His being made visible to all.” “Appearing” & “appears” would fit as well.

So much for a 2 stage 2nd advent. 🙂 When Yeshua comes/returns He will appear & be manifested to the whole earth, for every eye shall see HIM & every knee will bow.

SamFox

PS: My use of ‘eisegesis’ is not an argument, it’s a factual statement as a part of my argument. You HAVE to use it or you can’t ‘prove’ the PTR is true. At The End Begins they had a brief statement saying that there were no direct statements in scripture that prove a PTR, though they believe in it. Then they gave their reasons telling how they can say the PTR is true. As soon as I can find NTB’s explanation again I’ll post it.

clt: i really hope you’re right, but people assume Enoch was taken to heaven and is with God,but all it says is God took him,doesn’t say where, maybe Enoch was about to die you know he was old maybe God took him and buried him in a place no one knows? Also when the rapture happens the dead in christ are ressurrected at the same time, as matter of fact they get resurrected first, then those alive are changed,to meet in the air.Believe me I hope we aren’t here but from what I read we are, just protected,the resurrection happens at Christs second coming,this is why I believe we are here just protected and fed like in the Exodus, there were no sick, their shoes didn’t wear out, clothes etc… they were fed and had water etc… I guess well see soon,the middle east war is next big thing to happen then Israel will start to build the third temple they can’t do that until they possess the temple mount again, can’t do that until etc…and so on…thanks for replying,teri

1Thessalonians 5:9 is not talking about the wrath suffered at the hands of anti-Christ during the Tribulation. The anti-Christ reign is not the wrath of God. His judgments upon the world come in a different form found in Revelation, in the form of the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls poured on the earth.

We must be careful not to take single scriptures out of context. Earlier in the paragraph, Paul says, ” But you brothers are not in darkness so that this day (of the Lord, his second coming) should surprise you as a thief.” (1Thess 5:4) Why would it matter if we are surprised or not at day of the Lord if we are not here to witness it?

I prefer to take scripture literally. Jesus talks about Christians being persecuted and murdered during the last days before he returns. The book of Revelation talks about Christians being murdered and beheaded by anti-Christ. That is fact. What is not fact is the theory we will be raptured before anti-Christ. Nowhere in the bible are “Tribulation saints” mentioned. It is a fabrication. Any scripture used to “validate” this theory, regardless of how many being referenced, ask that we use either a symbolic or metaphorical interpretation. There is no LITERAL scripture that says the rapture will happen before anti-Christ. Here is a scripture that supports a rapture after anti-Christ:

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (the rapture/ resurrection of dead in Christ), we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2Thess 2:1-4) NIV

When understanding this scripture, let us ask ourselves, “If this isn’t the rapture (our being gathered to the Lord), then why is Paul bothering to tell us about it if we won’t be here?” Why should living Christians be alarmed about an event that will not take place while they are alive on earth? They (Thessalonians) were scared because false teachers were spreading lies that the Lord had already come for his people. Paul reassures this will not happen until anti-Christ is revealed and comes to power.

It’s clear our Lord will not come until after anti-Christ is revealed and he murders many Christians. This suffering is not the “wrath of God” but rather a purifying of our hearts and a testimony to the rest of the world. God sent his only son to suffer torture and death so millions could be saved. What makes us think he would not ask us to suffer for his greater good, to be a testimony in the midst of pure evil and to help rescue the lost during this horrible time?

It is not my intent to argue these issues. One believes what one chooses to believe. I know from experience that the closer I grew to Jesus ( the more I removed sin from my heart), the clearer my vision became. We must all strive to strengthen our own personal relationship with Jesus so that we can know the truth for ourselves, so that we will not be fooled or swayed by confusing and false theories. We must trust in God first and lean on him for truth by obeying him and methodically removing sin from our hearts (with help from the Holy Spirit). In time all things will be made clear if we love the truth and eliminate lies from our hearts.

I don’t have all the answers and I am continually opening my heart to Jesus so that I can gain more truth and insight. One thing I know for sure- there will be no rapture before anti-Christ. The bible is clear about this. We must remove the hardness and sin from our hearts first before we can begin to understand bible prophecy more clearly. I speak from experience, not as one who is being judgmental.

Thanks for your comments. I would like to address several points you raise:

“1Thessalonians 5:9 is not talking about the wrath suffered at the hands of anti-Christ during the Tribulation. The anti-Christ reign is not the wrath of God. His judgments upon the world come in a different form found in Revelation, in the form of the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls poured on the earth.

We must be careful not to take single scriptures out of context. Earlier in the paragraph, Paul says, ” But you brothers are not in darkness so that this day (of the Lord, his second coming) should surprise you as a thief.” (1Thess 5:4) Why would it matter if we are surprised or not at day of the Lord if we are not here to witness it? “

Let’s look a 1 Thessalonians 5:4 in context to find its meaning:

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

So right off the bat, we see that verse 1 begins with the word “but” – indicating that it is the continuation of a thought. So we go back to chapter 4 and the end of that chapter is discussing the Rapture:

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So now we have our context for the beginning of chapter 5. Paul has just finished discussing the Rapture and tells the church to “comfort” one another with this knowledge.

So let’s look at chapter 5:

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

So right here we see that the Day of The Lord – the beginning of the end times judgments, comes “As a thief”. It is not going to be expected. It is not going to be anticipated – by those who will suffer through it. In verse 3 Paul writes: ” For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY shall not escape.” This is a critical distinction. The text is clearly delineating two groups – believers and unbelievers. Unbelievers are going to be caught off guard by the Day of The Lord and suffer “sudden destruction.” Believers will not. The Apostle Paul confirms this by saying “but YE, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” Darkness is a Biblical reference for God’s judgment all throughout Scripture (going back to Genesis 1). To not being in darkness is to not be subject to that particular judgment. And this is what Paul is explaining. The Church will not endure the Day of The Lord. So the reason why Paul is making this distinction to the Thesalonian church is to further “comfort” them with the knowledge that they will escape these judgments. How? Via the rapture that Paul just explained at the end of Chapter 4. That is the contextual meaning for 1 Thessalonians 5:4. Let’s continue.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Paul continues to draw a contrast between “us” (the Church) and “them” (the unbelieving world). We are of “the day” (where there is light”) they are of “the night” (where there is darkness – i.e., God’s wrath). And we see that in verse 9, WE are not appointed to suffer the wrath of the Day of The Lord. We are to be saved from it by The Lord Jesus Christ. Paul again finishes his explanation with the same words he used in discussing the rapture:

Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

This is the full contextual complete explanation from chapter 4 through 5. Paul has explained the Rapture and how it will provide an escape from the Day of The Lord for those who are believers in The Lord Jesus Christ.

Now let’s return to your comments:

“I prefer to take scripture literally. Jesus talks about Christians being persecuted and murdered during the last days before he returns. The book of Revelation talks about Christians being murdered and beheaded by anti-Christ. That is fact. What is not fact is the theory we will be raptured before anti-Christ. Nowhere in the bible are “Tribulation saints” mentioned. It is a fabrication. Any scripture used to “validate” this theory, regardless of how many being referenced, ask that we use either a symbolic or metaphorical interpretation. There is no LITERAL scripture that says the rapture will happen before anti-Christ.

Yes, there are Christians who will be murdered during the Great Tribulation. But these are Christians who become believers during the Great Tribulation. The 144,000 serve as witnesses during the Great Tribulation. The 2 witnesses of Revelation 11 become so popular the entire planet knows who they are. Angels proclaim the gospel flying through the skies. There will still be a witness and a Gospel message in the Great Tribulation. So there will still be people being saved. And these people will be forced to die for their faith.

In Luke 21, The Lord Jesus Christ lists all the judgments that we find in the much more famous chapter of Matthew 24. Here are some excerpts of Luke 21:

And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

And The Lord concludes this passage saying:

34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on ALL THEM that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Notice Jesus is clear that EVERYONE on the Earth at the start of the Day of The Lord shall be caught in its snare. So if you are here when it begins, you are going to suffer “sudden destruction.” But then in verse 36, The Lord makes it clear that we can “ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass”. Here we see a clear statement that a Christian can indeed escape all of the Great Tribulation judgments.

Let’s continue with your comments:

Here is a scripture that supports a rapture after anti-Christ:”“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (the rapture/ resurrection of dead in Christ), we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2Thess 2:1-4) NIV

There is a fundamental problem with your statement above. Your Bible version – the NIV, has incorrectly translated 2 Thessalonians 2. It should not read “asserting that the day of the Lord has already come” It should read “day of CHRIST is at hand.” This is a very big error in understanding this passage. The term “day of Christ” has a very distinct meaning in Paul’s epistles and is not interchangeable with “the day of The Lord” which is an Old Testament term used no less than 24 times there (and thus Paul’s use of the phrase in the New Testament would be an obvious reference back to it). For more on this, see our article on this passage:

When understanding this scripture, let us ask ourselves, “If this isn’t the rapture (our being gathered to the Lord), then why is Paul bothering to tell us about it if we won’t be here?” Why should living Christians be alarmed about an event that will not take place while they are alive on earth? They (Thessalonians) were scared because false teachers were spreading lies that the Lord had already come for his people. Paul reassures this will not happen until anti-Christ is revealed and comes to power.

You have correctly identified the context of 2 Thessalonians. Someone had sent a false epistle that led this church to believe they were in the Day of The Lord. As You already pointed out, they thought they missed the Rapture! They thought they were left behind and doubted their own salvation. This is why Paul wrote the letter of correction. Now if the Rapture occurred at the Second Coming, clearly this church would NOT think they missed it. They were living under massive persecution at that time. So it would be quite obvious the Second Coming of Christ had not occurred yet and thus there would be no need for Paul to write them. Your own analysis undermines your argument. What Paul is saying is that they are not in Great Tribulation and the Second Coming is not “at hand.” And then confirms this by saying the apostasy and antichrist must come first. So these were two proofs that they were not in the Great Tribulation.

Paul then ends 2 Thessalonians 2 in the same manner he ended 1 Thessalonians 5:

And for this cause God shall send THEM strong delusion, that THEY should believe a lie: 12 That THEY all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But WEare bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Again, we see Paul distinguishes the Church, who believe and will be saved from Great Tribulation from “them”, the unbelieving world who will suffer through it. We are “chosen to salvation” – akin to being “appointed to salvation” as written in 1 Thessalonians. We are to have “Comfort” in these words. Why? Because we are not going to experience the Great Tribulation.

This is in harmony with Jesus’ statements that the Great Tribulation/Day of The Lord will be a snare on ALL people on the Earth. But that we can “escape” ALL these things. The Lord affirms this again in Revelation:

” Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” – Revelation 3:10.

Here The Lord tells the faithful Philadelphia church that they will be saved (“kept”) from the Great Tribulation which will try everyone who is on the Earth at the time it starts. This is in complete harmony with Luke 21. So respectfully, I disagree with your interpretation as I do not see it harmonizing with Scripture.

For more on our position on the timing of the Rapture, please our article below.

In reading your response it is clear to me we will not find common ground and that is fine. I believe the “day of the Lord” is the day that Jesus comes back for his people (rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ). You obviously believe otherwise. Since this is a huge difference in belief, there is no reason to continue this discussion. It would just continue endlessly without any meaningful outcome.

Also, if you want to believe something in a metaphorical sense then there is nothing to discuss. If we take a metaphorical interpretation of scripture instead of literal, than we can practically twist any scripture to mean what we want it to mean. For example, Rev. 3:10 is a scripture given to the church of Philadelphia (at that time). It is not meant to prove to Christians in the future that we will escape the Tribulation. In fact, the rapture, end of days, anti-Christ or anything related to end-time prophecy is not even mentioned in the entire message by Jesus to this church in chapture 3. There is nothing within the context of that message that tells us he is talking to future Christians about the rapture or being spared from the Tribulation. But if somebody wants to believe that the church of Philadelphia and the message Jesus gave specifically to them is a metaphor for the future church, this is their own choice. But when I read it, I read a passage that is not even related to end time prophecy, except for one line in which Jesus tells these people (Church of Philadelphia) they will not endure the Tribulation because of their faithfulness. This is an example of how I take scripture literally and avoid metaphorical and symbolic interpretations of scripture.

Once again, there is no literal mention in the bible of “Tribulation Saints”. This theory can only be corroborated by believing a hidden meaning that is not clearly stated in word.

My brother in Christ, we need to be careful of over thinking scripture. We need to remember that Satan will use or minds as a playground for confusion. The scripture is clear when we clear our hearts of sin. I used to believe many of the things you believe. Over time, as I dealt with the many issues in my heart, God began to give me more strength and more vision concerning all matters of life, as well as bible prophecy. We must make our hearts pure before we can see clearly enough to help others in regards to bible prophecy.

I respect you and your attitude toward the faith. But there are things that I can see (that I’ve learned from experience) which you are doing that are not totally correct before God. But it would be useless for me to talk about. This is only something that can be learned (understood) from experience and by being lifted out of the confusion. Just as somebody cannot talk somebody into believing in God, we also cannot talk somebody into changing their stance on this issue of bible prophecy- It is a matter of the heart. As the Lord said, “To him who has ears to hear let him hear.”

So it is on that note that I will end my portion of this discussion. We will agree to disagree. I don’t know your heart but I know mine. I ask that you sit down before the Lord and ask him to tell you if you are unknowingly preaching errors in prophecy, even if it means you might look foolish for being wrong so many years (as I once had to do). Take care and may the Lord bless you, your family and lead you into all truth.

Thanks again for your thoughts. I would like to address several points once again:

“Also, if you want to believe something in a metaphorical sense then there is nothing to discuss. If we take a metaphorical interpretation of scripture instead of literal, than we can practically twist any scripture to mean what we want it to mean. For example, Rev. 3:10 is a scripture given to the church of Philadelphia (at that time). It is not meant to prove to Christians in the future that we will escape the Tribulation.”

Here is Jesus’ summation to the church of Philadelphia:

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. – Revelation 3:10-13.

Again, verse 10 says this church will be protected from: “from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Now what is this referring to? We should be able to find this out by searching Scriptures. And The Lord makes it clear in Luke 21 that it is the Great Tribulation that will try the whole earth. This is the “hour of temptation” – precisely what Jesus is referencing when He provided us the model prayer:

“And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.” – Luke 11:4.

The “temptation” in this verses is NOT the temptation to sin. God would never lead a Christian into sinful temptation. We are drawn to sin by our own lusts. The “temptation” is a term that Jesus uses for the Great Tribulation. And thus we are to pray that we are “delivered” from it. This harmonizes with the Revelation 3:10 so we have a contextual explanation.

Finally Jesus ends the address in Rev 3 saying: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. So since you are reading things literally it should be obvious that the address to the church of Philadelphia is actually intended for the entire church through all time and it is has a spiritual message. So trying to limit it to just the church in Asia Minor at that time is not an interpretation supported by the text.

If this is incorrect, simply explain what the hour of temptation was that the church of Philadelphia was protected from.

You said:

” I believe the “day of the Lord” is the day that Jesus comes back for his people (rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ). “

This is a major distinction and with all due respect, mistake in interpretation. Any end times model/timeline that reads the Day of The Lord and the Second Coming as the same event is false. As stated before, the Day of The Lord is a specific series of judgments. It is mentioned 24 times in the Old Testament and none of those passages refer to the Second Coming.

Again, I encourage you to read our article on the Day of The Lord, as it goes in detail to these Old Testament references to demonstrate exactly what the Day of The Lord is and when it commences. And that is at the 6th Seal of Revelation 6. Let’s just look at one Old Testament Day of The Lord passage for comparison:

Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. 11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, 15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, 16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. 17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. 19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ? – Isaiah 2:10-22.

Now in this passage there are several key themes about the Day of The Lord: 1) It is a time when God rises up initiate a judgment on the Earth 2) it will affect all unbelievers on the Earth at the time, specifically the most powerful people in society 3) Those same powerful people will run into caves and any holes they can find in fear during the Day of The Lord. They will be powerless in the face of God’s judgment 4) There will be an earthquake.

Now let’s look at the 6th seal of Revelation:

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? – Revelation 6:12-17.

Notice the clear parallels: 1) God rises to judge the Earth 2) All people on Earth are affected by this, specifically the rich and powerful 3) The run into caves and holes to try and save themselves from The Lord’s devastating judgments. 4) There is a powerful, global earthquake.

And this is just on example of how the passages about the Day of The Lord that harmonize with the 6th seal of Revelation 6.

Furthermore, the Day of The Lord is an unexpected event: “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3).

The Second Coming of Christ is an EXPECTED event. This is extremely important to understand. It will be quite obvious to the world that Christ is coming back at His Second Coming.

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. -Revelation 16:12-14.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. – Revelation 19:19.

Notice at the Second Coming, the enemies of Christ are waiting for Him. They KNOW The Lord is coming. They gather for battle from all over the world just to fight The Lord. This is clearly an expected battle. They are not saying “peace and safety” they are ready for war. There is clearly no surprise factor here. There is not coming as a thief in the night. Heaven literally opens and Jesus appears on a horse with a massive army. This is the entrance of a triumphant conquering King, not a thief.

When are people caught off guard? When is there is sudden destruction? When are people scrambling and running for their lives? At the 6th seal – the clear start of the Day of The Lord.

Again, I think there is greater harmony between Scripture viewing it this way. And I welcome your response if not here than to our article on The Day of The Lord. Thanks again and God bless you abundantly.

B&E, the 1 Thess. 5:4 verse only says we are ever with the Lord, but NOT where. There is not a single NT verse that says Yeshua takes us to heaven at His 2nd advent. It says He comes from heaven, but not that He takes us there. You used pre conceived PTR doctrine to come to that conclusion. You use the same self preservation, earth minded logic the disciples used when Yeshua warned them about the leaven of the Pharisees. 🙂

If there is a verse I missed that does say we go to heaven at the 2nd advent, please post it. Thanks. Directly stated, no over lain assumption, like what you used.

In your 2nd reply to Joe you quote the verse that says Poppa will keep us from the hour of trib. That is correct. He will. But you use eisegesis to say He does so via a pre trib rapture. PTR teaching makes up & overlays a non Biblical definition of ‘keep’ by saying it’s the rapture that does it.

Israel didn’t fly to the promised land. Daniel didn’t fly away before the lions den event. The 3 Hebrew men were KEPT in then midst of the fiery furnace. Israel was kept in the wilderness. Peter had prison doors open as did Paul.

Paul said 2 Timothy 4:18 [And indeed] the Lord will certainly deliver and draw me to Himself from every assault of evil. He will preserve and bring me safe unto His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen (so be it).

How did Paul get there? Paul also said 1 Cor. 10:13 For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to **bear up under it** patiently.

When the mark comes, that will be a HUGE temptation to sin by transferring allegiance from Yeshua to the ac & it’s system. I think at this time, the coming of the mark will cause the great falling away.

Boiled down, if I am wrong & there is a PTR, I won’t miss it. If you are wrong & there is no PTR, will you have enough oil to endure to the end? To face the chopping block? If brought before some council or whatever to explain why you refuse the mark, will you be prepared to tell em to shove it, so to speak. ? 🙂

Thanks for your comments. You have made a number of bold assertions that I believe, respectfully are wildly incorrect. I will just respond to a few points as I hope that it can be an encouragement to lean on Scripture and not our own conclusions. You said:

“B&E, the 1 Thess. 5:4 verse only says we are ever with the Lord, but NOT where. There is not a single NT verse that says Yeshua takes us to heaven at His 2nd advent. It says He comes from heaven, but not that He takes us there. You used pre conceived PTR doctrine to come to that conclusion. You use the same self preservation, earth minded logic the disciples used when Yeshua warned them about the leaven of the Pharisees. 🙂

If there is a verse I missed that does say we go to heaven at the 2nd advent, please post it. Thanks. Directly stated, no over lain assumption, like what you used.”

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. – John 14:1-3.

This is a very clear and direct statement of Jesus coming back, receiving the church and then taking us to Heaven. Trying to assume my motivations for advocating the Red Moon rapture is a futile exercise. You are not actually addressing the Scriptural interpretations in the Rapture Series articles. Additionally, you are making claims about the bible that are just untrue (Like the quoted portion above).

“In your 2nd reply to Joe you quote the verse that says Poppa will keep us from the hour of trib. That is correct. He will. But you use eisegesis to say He does so via a pre trib rapture. PTR teaching makes up & overlays a non Biblical definition of ‘keep’ by saying it’s the rapture that does it.

Israel didn’t fly to the promised land. Daniel didn’t fly away before the lions den event. The 3 Hebrew men were KEPT in then midst of the fiery furnace. Israel was kept in the wilderness. Peter had prison doors open as did Paul. “

Saying “you use eisegesis…” without providing any Scripture, my interpretation or your own counter explanation is not an argument. You are not advancing any understanding of the Bible. I don’t know what portion of the Rapture series articles you are referring to. If there is a particular passage that you feel was explained in error, simply list the passage and provide your Biblically-sound interpretation. I will be glad to read and respond to it. -B&E

John 14:1-3 doesn’t directly say Yeshua takes us to heaven. The word ‘heaven’ is not in the verse. It’s another PTR assumption. Since there is NO verse that says He takes us to heaven at His 2nd advent, there is possibly another explanation/meaning here.

Jesus wasn’t speaking here of His 2nd advent. “Many dwelling places”– He was talking about our place in Him, His body & church because the disciples were not born again yet because Messiah had not sent the Holy Spirit yet.

John 14, Amplified. Read the whole chapter at biblegateway dot com. 2 In My Father’s house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you. [This speaks of yet to be occupied places for each of His followers in His body, the church.]

3 And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also. [At this point Yeshua was the sole occupant of the body of Christ. He came back at Pentecost to fulfill this & expand His church per Daniel’s vision of the small rock that grew to fill the earth. The church wasn’t born at Pentecost, it was expanded. The Church was born when Messiah was born. HE is the church as head & we are members of HIM as body.]

4 And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way. [Yeshua was going to heaven to sit on His throne & assume headship of His body, bride & church. We are connected to Him via the Holy Spirit. That’s why the temple’s veil was torn. HE is the Holy of Holies & the Ark.]

5 Thomas said to Him, Lord, we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?

6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.

16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever—

17 The Spirit of Truth, Whom the world cannot receive (welcome, take to its heart), because it does not see Him or know and recognize Him. But you know and recognize Him, for He lives with you [constantly] and will be in you.

18 I will not leave you as orphans [comfortless, desolate, bereaved, forlorn, helpless]; I will come [back] to you.

19 Just a little while now, and the world will not see Me any more, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.

20 At that time [when that day comes] you will know [for yourselves] that I am in My Father, and you [are] in Me, and I [am] in you.

21 The person who has My commands and keeps them is the one who [really] loves Me; and whoever [really] loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I [too] will love him and will show (reveal, manifest) Myself to him. [I will let Myself be clearly seen by him and make Myself real to him.] [V 21 & this train of thought was fulfilled on Pentecost in Acts.]

[A key verse] 22 Judas, not Iscariot, asked Him, Lord, how is it that You will reveal Yourself [make Yourself real] to us and not to the world?

[A key verse] 23 Jesus answered, If a person [really] loves Me, he will keep My word [obey My teaching]; and My Father will love him, and **We will come to him and make Our home (abode, special dwelling place) with him.**

25 I have told you these things while I am still with you. 26 But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you. 28 You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am. 29 And now I have told you [this] before it occurs, so that when it does take place you may believe and have faith in and rely on Me.

This chapter is not about Yeshua’s 2nd advent. It’s about how we will be introduced to the Father & relational access to Him by a new & living way.

B&E, I am responding to what you have posted here in this thread. Aren’t your comments here reflective of & from the 3 part series?

I have read 3 or 4 PTR asserting books & am at least a bit familiar with the teaching. I focus on the word rather than what I find by scripture to be counterfeit. No offense meant, I have friends who believe the teaching.

Didn’t I refer to the Thess verse that says we will ever be with the Lord & say it says that we will ever be with Him, but not where? Isn’t that an example of your use of eisegesis, as the verse says nothing of our going to heaven?

You quoted one of my examples-““In your 2nd reply to Joe you quote the verse that says Poppa will keep us from the hour of trib. That is correct. He will. But you use eisegesis to say He does so via a pre trib rapture. ”

Since that verse doesn’t say HOW we are kept, that is an example of your use of eisegesis. I have quoted 1 Cor. 10:13 a few times calling the verse the only definition of escape in the NT as one example of where I feel you miss the mark. Is there another direct statement verse that tells us any other definition of escape? I could have missed one. [I am not being cheeky or smarty pants.]

Your ENTIRE belief is based on the assumption that the Day of the Lord equals a seven year long Tribulation. There is no such thing in the Bible as a seven year long Tribulation. If there is, show me. First, Daniel’s 70th week is 7 years long, but nowhere does it say Danile’s 70th week is the Tribulation. Second, the Antichrist perecuted the saints for 42 months, during the second half of Daniel’s 70th week, after the Abomination that causes desolation. This is the Great Tribulation. The Day of the Lord is NOT the seven years of a supposed Tribulation. The Day of the Lord and God’s wrath begins when the sun, moon and stars are darkened and the heavenly bodies are shaken, AFTER the tribualtion of those days, when the Son of Man sends His angels to gather His elect. The sixth Seal announces the wrath of God and men’s hearts fail then for fear of those things that are coming on the earth. This is when the Rapture happens, after the Tribulation, but before God’s wrath. So you are correct in saying that the Rapture begins the Day of the Lord, but incorrect about when the Day of the Lord begins. Scripture proves it, plain and simple. And Jesus coming as a thief is in reference to His Second Coming, not a previous rapture.

Once again, I would like to respond to the first statement you make, so let’s continue discussion:

You said:

“Your ENTIRE belief is based on the assumption that the Day of the Lord equals a seven year long Tribulation.”

Please show me where I ever wrote this. I never made this statement nor do I believe it. So this, with respect is a straw man argument because you are starting your disagreement by arguing against a statement I never made.

“The Day of the Lord is NOT the seven years of a supposed Tribulation. The Day of the Lord and God’s wrath begins when the sun, moon and stars are darkened and the heavenly bodies are shaken, AFTER the tribualtion of those days, when the Son of Man sends His angels to gather His elect. “

Matthew 24:29 is becoming one of the most misquoted passages in end times discussion today. It reads (in context):

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. – Matthew 24:29-31.

I notice in your analysis, you skip over verse 30 – even though it is clearly a part of a sequence of events that The Lord is describing. So what is your interpretation of this verse?

With respect to verse 31, let’s look at the most clear description of the rapture in Scripture:

16 For the Lord HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. – 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.

Notice how different this verses is from Matthew 24:31, which you are calling the Rapture. Nowhere in 1 Thessalonians 4 do we read about Jesus sending angels to gather the Church. It specifically says Jesus “Himself” personally comes to meet the church in the air. These two passages are not describing the same event. Saying it is just ignores their details.

“The sixth Seal announces the wrath of God and men’s hearts fail then for fear of those things that are coming on the earth. This is when the Rapture happens, after the Tribulation, but before God’s wrath. So you are correct in saying that the Rapture begins the Day of the Lord, but incorrect about when the Day of the Lord begins. Scripture proves it, plain and simple.”

Yes, the Rapture occurs at the opening of the 6th Seal. I am glad we agree here. But the first 5 seals are not the end times judgments of God. They are spirits that have been sent into the world since The Lord Jesus Christ returned to Heaven. This is a major error in the pre-wrath model. It incorrectly places the first 5 seals in the end times, when they have been opened for almost 2,000 years. The first seal is normally called “the antichrist” by the pre-wrath model. Yet there is nothing in Scripture that supports the first rider being the antichrist at all. The antichrist comes from the “abyss” or “bottomless pit”:

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. – Revelation 11:7.

” And Jesus coming as a thief is in reference to His Second Coming, not a previous rapture.”

Once again, your theory is refuted by clear Scripture:

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. – Revelation 16:12-14.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. – Revelation 19:19.

This is another major error of the pre-wrath model – as it confuses the “coming as a thief in the night” metaphor used by The Lord. The Second Coming of Christ is AN EXPECTED EVENT. This cannot be said enough. The Anitchrist knows Jesus is coming. The False Prophet knows He’s Coming. The many rulers of the world and their armies travel to Armageddon just to fight The Lord. When Jesus Christ arrives, they are waiting for Him. They are ready for war. Clearly this is not the coming of a “thief in the night.” Christ is returning in full glory, on a horse will millions of saints behind Him. There is nothing quiet, or thief-like about this. Any end times model that presumes the Second Coming is unexpected, will always be filled with errors as it is misapplying Scripture.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. – Matthew 24:27.

Here The Lord uses typology to compare the Second Coming to lightining that can be seen all throughout the sky. A thief is not seen by everyone. The Second Coming is expected. The Rapture is unexpected. God bless. -B&E

Christian Zionists like Haggai have been interpreting the Prophecy “The sun will not give light—” as four blood moons , but many blood moons have passed & nothing has happened which but reveals false Prophecies by the Prophets of Babylon, when this Prophecy actually concerns the Woman of Rev. 12 who is the Church, relating to her Prosecution even spiritually, & its signs are seen & that which the Devil uses against is the “Sodomic Agenda” the very marker, hitting the very core of the basic structure – The family, brought in through terms like Compassion to Complacency, inclusiveness, Liberty etc,even through laws as such, in the modern originating from the 3 parts of Babylon(already revealed) -Spiritually & Physically, & to this the understanding of the many alters figured in the British Freemasonic Israeli supreme court says much. .

B&E, You said “Notice Jesus is clear that EVERYONE on the Earth at the start of the Day of The Lord shall be caught in its snare. So if you are here when it begins, you are going to suffer “sudden destruction.” But then in verse 36, The Lord makes it clear that we can “ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass”. Here we see a clear statement that a Christian can indeed escape all of the Great Tribulation judgments. ”

If that were true how the 144,000 have a revival? The so called ‘left behind’ would be here then, so what’s the diff? Why can Poppa keep them but not us?

The false PTR teaches the 144,000 will lead many to the Yeshua. We know that any one who is born again & redeemed by the Blood if the Lamb becomes at that moment a member of the body bride & church of Yeshua.

So you STILL have the church in the trib, just a diff part. If The Great I AM can keep them, why can’t He keep us? He can.

We were free from Father’s wrath the moment we got saved. Our ‘escape’ is into HIM, not going to heaven. Heb. 11. How did these make it? Paul told Timothy Poppa would bring Paul safe to His heavenly kingdom. Paul was martyred, so Paul was delivered to Father’s heavenly kingdom via death.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And [how you] look forward to and await the coming of His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead—Jesus, Who personally rescues and delivers us out of and from the wrath [bringing punishment] which is coming [upon the impenitent] and draws us to Himself [investing us with all the privileges and rewards of the new life in Christ, the Messiah].

“Draws us to Himself” means we are blessed with a growing relationship with the Godhead. If we work daily towards a strong Bible based relationship we don’t need a PTR. The bracketed part of the last sentence shows the weakness of a one word for one word translation. Often an original language word is invested with meaning that cannot be translated fully by using only one word. That’s the beauty of the Amplified Bible, they don’t always use just one word to bring out the fuller meaning of the original language word.

Be sure you have as much oil as you can. If you are striving to know Yeshua & His written word He will fill in what ever we lack when it’s needed to do so. Yeah, many of us may be killed by the ac & it’s beast system. SO WHAT??? If you are not ready form this verse, you may need to reexamine your relationship with Yeshua… Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to be My disciple, let him deny himself [disregard, lose sight of, and forget himself and his own interests] and take up his cross and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conform wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying, also].

This thought is repeated 4 more times in Mth. 8:10, Mth. 10:38, Luke 9:23 & John 12:26. A different take on the above thought is found in Revelation 2:10 Fear nothing that you are about to suffer. [Dismiss your dread and your fears!] Behold, the devil is indeed about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested and proved and critically appraised, and for ten days you will have affliction. Be loyally faithful unto death [even if you must die for it], and I will give you the crown of life.

The above verse goes along with what Yeshua said about being taken before kings & govenours. The Holy Spirit in us is greater than anything in the world. We have nothing to fear.

That’s a quote PTR buffs ignore. They only like the ‘keep you from the hour’ verse. There are 4 churches addressed in Revelation. We don’t get to pick & choose the parts we like, we must take the whole Word.

I’m thinking that he will be, along with Elijah. I guess we won’t know until they show, right?

If you would like a good, detailed Biblical study about the Rapture and the signs thereof, there’s a good series on Youtube from pastor JD Farag. He does a weekly Bible prophecy update that’s lined up with current facts and backed up with Scripture. So far he’s doing a series that gives 19 reasons why the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation. If you really want to be encouraged that we won’t suffer through it, check that out. I’d love to know what you think!

If I remember hearing correctly, the Jews already have their preparations in place to begin rebuilding, they’re just waiting for the “okay”. Perhaps that’s something that will be negotiated in the so-called peace treaty that’s being discussed? All the end-time players are lined up against Israel, to make her a nation no more. There has been no time in history before that this has occurred. I’m excited to see the prophetic time table laid out.

B&E – Great post. I wanted to comment specifically on the JW section. I was raised into the JW cult for 16 years before I was able to break free and I wanted to validate that everything you wrote regarding the 144,000 and other doctrines is absolutely true. Unfortunately, I still know a lot of good people who were unable to escape this cult.

Your assessment on Seventh Day Adventists is WRONG. Why don’t you do real reasearch before you mislead people with your lies? SDA’s are purely Bible based. No we do not travel on planets and other worlds. Honeslty its so sad that people make up whatever they want with no regard for lives you could be leading down the wrong path.It’s just so wrong. For anyone who really wants to know who and what Seventh Day Adventists stand for go to amazingfacts.org

Thank you for your comments. I have researched SDA theology in addition to attending several SDA services.

If you would like to have a Biblical discussion to correct me on SDA doctrine, I would love to. I would start simply by going to the points you raise:

1) Do you view Ellen G. White as a prophet of God?

2) What is the significance of Saturday worship with respect to salvation?

3 I also wonder why you are directing people to amazingfacts.org and not the official website of the Seventh Day Adventist church? Wouldn’t that be the best place to learn what SDA’s believe? There you will find numerous documents that give credit to Ellen G. White for the church’s doctrine. Even the offical church manual which is for ALL SDA churches worldwide was based on the urging of Ellen G. White (and it’s a 213 page document). Whereas amazingfacts goes out of its way to mask the SDA teachings that conflict with Scripture (i.e., Whites false prophecies, the belief that going to church on Sunday is taking the Mark of the Beast which biblically means you are damned with no chance of redemption, etc.).

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s current understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture.I will address your points as follows:

1) Ellen G White was a prophet just like the prophets in the Bible that received visions from God. I’m not sure why this is so perplexing to you but if you would like to know more about her, here is a link http://www.whiteestate.org/about/egwbio.asp#who Ellen G White did nothing but quote scriptures and write about her visions. Not once did she contradict scripture. Amazingfacts.org does not hide Ellen G White. Simply search her name in their searcg engine and you will find plenty on her and her writings.

2) Regarding Sabbath worship read scriptures: Psalms 95:6-7,Exodus 20:8-11,Deuteronomy 5:15, Hebrews 10:26 Just to name a few. The sabbath is God’s will as well as the day that he blessed. So are you telling me that you pick and choose which commandments to obey? The sabbath is the seventh day. Jesus said “if you love me keep my commandments.” Period. It’s that simple. Here is a link that will help people who truly want to learn about the sabbath http://www.amazingfacts.org/news-and-features/inside-report/id/459/7-facts-about-the-seventh-day.aspx You can also go on the search ending and type in “Sabbath” and you will find the answers and see why you need to keep the sabbath as well as all the commandments.

3) I referred you to amazingfacts.org because it is a great tool for anyone searching on what Seventh Day Adventism is all about and more importantly their search for God. It has helped many answer their questions.

I only responded to you because of your accusations regarding SDA’s flying to other planets, saying we don’t follow scriptures and your confusing dislike of Ellen G White. All of your above statements have been rebuffed and anyone who searches for the truth on these two websites I provided below and more importantly the Bible will see that you are wrong. Just look on our official website and you will find that we go only by the Bible and Ellen G White was also someone who went by the Bible.

“Ellen G White was a prophet just like the prophets in the Bible that received visions from God”

So now you have confirmed my statement that the SDA church sees Ellen G. White as a prophet. As thus, her teachings on doctrine are on par with Scripture. Your own belief confirms this very thing as you have just equated her to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Moses and all the prophets of the Bible. Thus whether you agree with her statements or not, her doctrine on the 144,000 is what the SDA church adheres to and it has nothing to do with Bible Scripture. It’s White’s own testimony about traveling to other planets, visiting Heaven etc., so either you believe her words as Scripture or you are calling her a false prophet.

2) The Sabbath

As you may have guessed I am in major disagreement with you over this doctrine. First off, a born again Christian is not subject to the Mosaic covenant. Jesus Christ established a new covenant based on faith in His sacrifice on the cross. But more on that later. I will now address the verses you cite in support of keeping Sabbath as a part of one’s salvation:

“O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker. 7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. 10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.” – Psalm 95:6-11.

This passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath but is a reference to Numbers 13, when the Israelites sent 12 spies to scout the land of canaan and 10 said they could not take the land because the Nephilim were there. And the entire generation of Israelite adults, save Joshua and Caleb, the two faithful spies, died in the wilderness as a result of their doubting of God’s promises. This event is called “the provocation” in Scripture. It’s so ironic that you picked this passage because in Hebrews chapter 3 it is quoted to explain salvation:

“Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” – Hebrews 3:7-12.

What the Scriptures are saying is that episode in Numbers 13 was a picture of salvation: God promised the Israelites the Promised Land, but because of what their eyes saw they did not BELIEVE. Notice it was not works that led to their punishment, it was a lack of faith and belief in God’s Word. This passage is underscoring the fact that it is faith that saves a person and not any work, much less Sabbath-keeping.

Let’s go to the next one:

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. – Exodus 20:9-11

OK, so again, you are trying to assert that Christians are subject to the Mosaic covenant. God specifically said this covenant was broken and would be replaced:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

– Jeremiah 31:31-33.

So already we see that God, millennia ago, announced that the Mosaic covenant, which was the covenant given upon the exodus from Egypt, was broken and would be replaced.

The “new covenant” is through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus confirmed this numerous times by declaring that faith or belief in Him is the way to salvation.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life

The Apostles confirmed the same:

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

In all these passages the means of salvation is clear: it is faith in Christ that saves, not works. No mention of sabbath keeping or the law of Moses whatsoever.

The epistles confirm the same as well:

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. – Galatians 2.

This passage is clear – is salvation could come by the law, then Jesus died in vain.

The Apostle Paul continues:

“O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” – Galatians 3:1-7.

So here again, the Scriptures continue to expain that it was faith that saved us, not the law. So no law-keeping achieves salvation. Paul compares the idea to believing the law can save you to WITCHCRAFT. He then calls them “foolish” for being saved by faith but then later claiming their works justified them. Finally he goes back to Abraham, who was made righteous by FAITH, and thus those who are of the seed of Abraham, must also be justified by faith as well. So the Bible unequivocally refutes SDA doctrine.

Your next verse:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”

You have taken this verse out of context. But suffice to say it has nothing to do with sabbath keeping. And a born again Christian still keeps Sabbath. How, by resting in Christ:

“Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.” – Hebrews 4:1-11.

This passage directly explains that the basis of Sabbath rest for a Christian is BELIEF. It is ceasing from works. The Old Testament sabbath was a type and shadow of the true Sabbath of the New Covenant, which is putting full trust and faith in Christ and not works, for salvation. So what day is the Sabbath for a Christian? EVERY DAY. Because a true born again Christian puts her trust in Christ every day for salvation. This passage again, in very clear language refutes SDA doctrine which preaches works and the law for salvation.

No, it’s actually not that simple. Why? Because you have once again taken that verse out of context. You are assuming that Jesus is referring to the 10 commandments, but is He? We can find out when someone asked Jesus about His commandments:

“28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question. –

So we see the commandments of Christ are two love God and love your neighbor. And that’s it.

Jesus says the same thing in Matthew 22:

“6 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.“

So again, we see he Lord Jesus Christ give His commandments. And He specifies that ALL of the law and ALL of the writings of the prophets come down to following these 2 commandments.

Here is one final example directly from Jesus that again clearly makes this point:

“As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.“- John 15.

What is Jesus’ commandment? LOVE. As born again Christians we are to love God and love one another. This is how Christians are to be identified in this world, by the love we have for God and each other. And mind you this is John 15, which is a continuation of chapter 14 where Jesus says, “if you love me keep my commandments.” So you have clearly used that verse out of context to try and apply it to the ten commandments, which Jesus never mentions, much less Sabbath keeping, which Jesus also never mentions.

Trying to preach works is a false Gospel and the SDA church is based on this. It has also made wildly unbiblical doctrines like the Mark of the Beast being “going to church on Sunday” which clearly does not align with Scripture at all. So I stand by assertion that Seventh Day Adventist doctrine has very little to do with Biblical Christianity. Ellen White is not a prophet of God and if you believe so you have to stand by all her prophecies, including the ones about traveling to other planets and her prediction that Jesus has already returned to Earth (in 1914). My hope is that you will just let the BIBLE and nothing else be your guide on what to believe. Because the SDA’s are not preaching the Biblical Gospel.

“Trying to preach works is a false Gospel and the SDA church is based on this. It has also made wildly unbiblical doctrines like the Mark of the Beast being “going to church on Sunday” which clearly does not align with Scripture at all. So I stand by assertion that Seventh Day Adventist doctrine has very little to do with Biblical Christianity. Ellen White is not a prophet of God and if you believe so you have to stand by all her prophecies, including the ones about traveling to other planets and her prediction that Jesus has already returned to Earth (in 1914). My hope is that you will just let the BIBLE and nothing else be your guide on what to believe. Because the SDA’s are not preaching the Biblical Gospel.”

while you are right about WoF religions. and while im not convinced White is worth anything(although i admit its possible its also possible she received evil visions as well) that aside.

in your entire faith is all that is needed to be saved(and this is something i fail to see how any christian and partake in) you ignore the fundamental fact…..i can have faith in Christ all freakin day but if I am an evil rotten scum bag that persecutes the poor and disobeys the 10 commandments…heaven is not where i am going.

so the correct doctrine is first have faith and then through faith do good works not this faith alone nonsense.

If we are not in Christ, our works are in vain. And most likely, anyone being a “scumbag” is not in Christ, because the power of Christ compells us to righteousness. Without Christ, we have ZERO righteousness.

I have done some study in psychology and Ellen White’s name comes up in case studies of temporal lobe epilepsy. Many believe her visions were born from TLE hallucinations which commonly give people false visions of God. What fascinates me about the 144000 or 12000 of each of the 12 tribes. What happens to all the billions of good, faithful Christians that have already departed this world? Will we ever be able to find our departed love ones in such a sea of billions? One statistician friend calculates that we only have a chance of meeting 2% of our departed loved ones and family in Heaven. We will likely find 98% of our loved ones and family in Hell. Frankly I don’t like those odds.

I have nothing to do with Ellen G White. I am not an SDA; neither am I a JW.

However, I am curious as to why you have so much aversion to works! If work has nothing to do with salvation, then what has? Idleness?

“But Jesus answered them, My Father WORKS until now, and I WORK.” (John 5:17).

See, Jesus’ attitude towards work. He was not an idle Person!

The Bible is full of advice to do “good works”. It says “indeed the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and GOOD” (Rom 7:12). What is holy and good cannot be against salvation!

Besides, you misunderstand between a “covenant” and a “law”. Let us re-read and understand Jeremiah 31:31-33:

“Only the old covenant was abolished. The law is not abolished. In the old covenant the law was written on the stone. God will make a new covenant with the same people; Israel. In the new covenant the SAME LAW (that was on the stone) will be written “in their inward parts, in their hearts”. God will be the same God and the people will be the same people”.

I have always wondered how Christian people immediately reject works and law when they talk about salvation.

And that too when and in spite we have such serious warnings from Jesus Himself:

“And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; “depart from Me, those working LAWlessness!” (Mat 7:23).

“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all the offenses, and those who practice LAWlessness.” (Mat 13:41).

It is time to heed Him seriously and check whether we are propagating lawlessness!

Thanks for your comments. we have indeed moved on to a new topic! Unfortunately the subject of how one goes to Heaven is indeed a foundational, fundamental issue of the faith (unlike the issue of the Nephilim). I believe in only one Gospel, based on faith in Christ alone.

I will be glad to discuss the law and covenants but why don’t we get right to the point – please tell me which of your works have contributed to your salvation? I would love to know the specific deeds you have performed to earn your salvation. Thanks.

I think there’s always some confusion when it comes to salvation through Christ, with this notion that just because you’re saved (permanently) that you have a sort of hall pass to be wicked or idle. But we are told that our salvation will be evident by our works, fruits of the Spirit. If the fruits are not present, then the seed didn’t give birth. We do good works through the love and power of the Holy Spirit which we allow to possess us. Otherwise, we are told that our efforts amount to “filthy rags.”

//”please tell me which of your works have contributed to your salvation?” – B&E//

We shouldn’t talk about my works. That won’t take us anywhere. We need to discuss on the Biblically prescribed “good works” a person who have faith in Jesus need to do empowered by the Holy Spirit.

“So let your light shine before men, so that they may see your GOOD WORKS, and may glorify your Father in Heaven.” (Mat 5:16).

“He “will give to each according to his WORKS:” everlasting life truly to those who with patience in GOOD WORK seeking glory and honor and incorruptibility” (Rom 2:6-7).

“for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS” (Eph 2:10).

“so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every GOOD WORK” (2 Tim 3:17).

“They profess to know God, but by their WORKS they deny Him, being abominable and disobedient, and worthless to every GOOD WORK” (Tit 1:16).

“who gave Himself on our behalf, “that He might redeem us from all LAWLESSNESS and purify a special people for Himself,” zealous of GOOD WORKS.” (Tit 2:14).

“Faithful is the Word, and concerning these things I desire you strongly to affirm that the ones believing God should take thought to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and ***profitable*** to men.” (Tit 3:8).

“Watch yourselves, that we may not lose the things we WORKED OUT, but that we may receive a full reward” (2 John 1:8).

“And, behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each as his WORK is” (Rev 22:12).

(These are only a few samples. Also please note that majority of the above quotes are from Paul himself).

How can we say that Salvation is Unrelated to Work??!!! ——————————————————————————

//”I would love to know the specific deeds you have performed to earn your salvation. Thanks.” – B&E//

NO ONE CAN ***”EARN”*** SALVATION. SALVATION OR ETERNAL LIFE IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD (Rom 6:23).

Even Science says the same thing!

The Law of Biogenesis says: “Life can come ONLY from PRE-EXISTING life”!

So no amount of good works or law keeping will “produce” any life! This is very fundamental and sensible.

BUT …………….

We may LOSE life unless we are careful to maintain it.

Let me give an analogy:

There is an electric fence with a warning instruction thereon. Now the warning does not “produce” life but it “sustains” life. If you obey the warning you keep your life to receive the free gift. If you break the warning you lose your life before receiving the free gift!

So with God’s law and good works. These help us maintain our life to receive the free gift of eternal life!

“But the one who **endures** to the end will be saved” (Mat 10:22).

Let us take the case of Paul’s own life. When God confronted Saul to elect him as an apostle he was a persecuter and an accomplice to the murder of the Church!!! So Paul never “earned” his salvation. On the contrary he worked against it!!!

Yet, God, out of abundant grace, elected him to receive the free gift of eternal life. And once Paul came to know about this “grace” he “worked harder than others” (1 Cor 15:10) to maintain his election!

“Therefore, my beloved, …………………………, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling” (Philip 2:12).

(Can you believe this is from Paul himself??!!!)

So, no, you cannot “EARN” your salvation but, yes, you can “work out” your salvation once you are elected by God’s grace to receive the free gift of eternal life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope I have clarified the issue. —————————————————————————

//”the subject of how one goes to Heaven is indeed a foundational, fundamental issue of the faith” – B&E//

(I am curious to know where in the Bible it says we are going to heaven. Aren’t the meek supposed to inherit the earth rather than heaven?!)

Thanks for your reply. Mine will be a short one. I will simply address your first point:

//”please tell me which of your works have contributed to your salvation?” – B&E//

We shouldn’t talk about my works. That won’t take us anywhere. We need to discuss on the Biblically prescribed “good works” a person who have faith in Jesus need to do empowered by the Holy Spirit.

If your works have earned or are preserving your salvation for you then you should be boldly proclaiming those works. Don’t you want others to know what we need to do in order to maintain our salvation? If there are certain works that we must do so we do not LOSE OUR SALVATION (which is clearly the Gospel that you seem to be preaching), then please – let us all know, what works have you done in order to maintain it – lest one of miss out and end up in damnation??

You claim to believe salvation is a GIFT (which means it’s free), but we have to earn the right to keep the gift. Guess what? Then it’s not a gift.

Every time a “you must do works” false Gospel is being preached, the preacher never wants to discuss their own works or their own sin. Kayne said a similar thing to you and I am still waiting for his answer on how many sins he’s committed in thought, word or deed the past month. Are you willing to share the amount of sins you commit in thought word or deed on a regular basis, while you are “preserving your salvation”?

As I said before, unlike the Nephilim issue, this is a very serious one. You are changing the Biblical Gospel. And I am still waiting to hear what exactly your Gospel is once you share the works you have done to preserve your salvation.

//”If there are certain works that we must do so we do not LOSE OUR SALVATION (which is clearly the Gospel that you seem to be preaching)” – B&E//

I am surprised that you believe nobody LOSES a free gift!!!

When we all receive FREE gifts from our loved ones, we carefully keep those gifts without losing them. Our care shows that we CAN lose those gifts which were FREE unless we take effort!!!

Losing salvation is NOT my gospel; it is there very much in the Bible:

“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly ***GIFT***, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have FALLEN away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.” (Heb 6:4-8).

No, I am not proof texting. The above is a very plain verse from the Scripture!

If the above is not enough, then read the following instruction from Paul:

“GUARD the good Deposit given through the Holy Spirit indwelling in us.” (2 Tim 1:14).

Yes, Paul is cautioning against LOSING the FREE Deposit!

“And DO NOT GRIEVE the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption” (Eph 4:30).

“how shall we escape if we NEGLECT such a great salvation?” (Heb 2:3).

Please tell me, how do you understand the Scripture that asks us to “WORK OUT our own SALVATION” (Philip 2:12). ————————————————————————

//”You claim to believe salvation is a GIFT (which means it’s free), but we have to earn the right to keep the gift. Guess what? Then it’s not a gift.” – B&E//

I never said “we have to *earn* the right to keep the gift”!

I said on the contrary!

And I gave the example of Paul. When God selected Saul to be the Apostle of Jesus Christ, Saul was a persecutor and an accomplice to the murder of God’s saints. So Paul never “earned” anything from God. God selected him freely and gave him gifts freely! But once Paul came to know about this unconditional grace from God, he was always careful not to lose it! He “worked harder than others”!!!

To begin with, I am a sinner and as good as dead (Eph 2:1). I cannot make myself alive.

Then God “rich in mercy” (Eph 2:4) selects me FREELY for salvation from my death (Eph 2:5). This is FREE by God’s grace (same verse). This is through the hearing of the Gospel (Eph 1:13).

Then I am FREELY “justified” through faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 3:24). I confess my faith with my mouth and believe in my heart (Rom 10:9). This free justification is through the death and blood of my Savior Jesus (Rom 5:9-10).

Then God gives me the FREE gift of the Holy Spirit which is a SEAL and “GUARANTEE/PLEDGE” or advance of eternal life that I am GOING TO possess later (Eph 1:13-14)!!!

What is interesting is that until this free justification, I have done nothing worthwhile. No efforts from me. All the action was done FREELY by God and Jesus Christ. I only believed and confessed my faith in Jesus!

Now begins a journey for me of holy life in hardships and sufferings close to God believing that I “SHALL BE SAVED” (Rom 5:9-10).

I may falter but I need to complete my journey, my “race”, my “good fight” till the end. Then shall I receive the eternal life at Christ’s second coming (2 Tim 4:7-8).

(Remember, the “race” and “good fight” are WORK we do!!!)

My journey must be one of OBEDIENCE to God (1 Peter 1:14, 22)!

Please tell me, is there anything wrong in the above?

(God’s gift, though it is free, is NOT cheap and so we need to be very careful!) —————————————————————————-

//”Don’t you want others to know what we need to do in order to maintain our salvation? If there are certain works that we must do so we do not LOSE OUR SALVATION (which is clearly the Gospel that you seem to be preaching), then please – let us all know” – B&E//

Wow, you sound same like the young and rich Jewish man who came to Jesus and asked the same question!!!!!!!!!!

Rich man: “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have ETERNAL LIFE?” (Mat 19:16).

Jesus: “But if you desire to enter into LIFE, keep the commandments.” (verse 17).

I am taking no offense. If you are going to proclaim that a person can lose their salvation, simply state what works you have personally done to preserve your salvation. Like Kayne, you are just being evasive. If your interpretation is correct, then you should happily share what your works are so others know and do not go to hell.

Similarly, like Kayne, you have ignored the question about how many times you have sinned in thought, word or deed in the past month to show the rest of us the right way to live and perform for God. You two share the same Gospel, but for some reason refuse to provide a personal testimony.

Jesus said not everyone who calls him Lord! Lord! will be saved but only those who does the will of His Father in Heaven.

When we die and as our spiritual eyes opens, and saw Jesus coming down from Heaven and we were lifted up, then we know that we are saved.

But when we die and as our spiritual eyes opens, and saw Jesus seated on the White Throne Judgement, then we will find out if we are saved or will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

While in this life what we can hold on to is the truth and the conviction that we are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. We make everyday, our conviction that we are saved, very evident in our lives. This is how we work out our salvation.

//”If you are going to proclaim that a person can lose their salvation, simply state what works you have personally done to preserve your salvation.” – B&E//

It would be a foolish act (a folly) if someone wants to follow “me”. I may become like another “Demas”, who “fell in love with this present world and has deserted” the apostle (2 Tim 4:10).

“for One is your Leader, the Christ” (Mat 23:10). Listen to Him and **follow** Him.

And He says clearly, if anyone wants to enter life, then keep the ten commandments! ——————————————————————————

//”you have ignored the question about how many times you have sinned in thought, word or deed in the past month to show the rest of us the right way to live and perform for God.” – B&E//

B&E, you are asking questions like a kid!

Any body’s sins and righteousness are personal affairs between him and God. It is not for “the rest of us” to know that.

If “the rest of us” want to know “the right way to live and perform for God”, then the rest of us must study the Scripture that shows the Way!!!

This is elementary knowledge.

(You have devoted a large part of this site to reveal the true colors of ‘Prosperity Gospel’ preachers. How do they get followers? Of course because many people try to follow these ‘idols’ instead of following Jesus Christ, the Perfect Role Model. So let us stop following any tom, dick and harry. Our goal is only Jesus!) —————————————————————————

//”but for some reason refuse to provide a personal testimony.” – B&E//

It is not wise to go after personal testimonies. We have the Bible to learn correct things. The Scriptures have enough personal testimonies “set as examples” we need to know. ——————————————————————————–

//”Like Kayne, you are just being evasive.” – B&E//

Why do you evade my question: “Please tell me, how do you understand the Scripture that asks us to “WORK OUT our own SALVATION” (Philip 2:12).” ————————————————————————–

//”can you name one person in the entire Bible who lost their salvation?” – B&E//

I do not like to point at some one and judge.

However, see Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5:1. They were clearly members of the first Church who received the Holy Spirit and knew the truth fully well.

Yet they lied to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3). Is that an unpardonable sin (Mat 12:32)? I don’t know. I don’t dare to say anything about their end. But for the time being it seems they have fallen.

From what I gather from Hebrews & sabbath is that for us in Messiah, sabbath is a state of being. We are to be continually at rest in Yeshua & what He did for us. Our innermost self is at rest in our Savior.

By the way, the OT law was never given to gentiles in the 1st place. In Acts Peter called it a yoke that we nor our forefathers were able to bear.

Works are part of our relationship with Father AFTER we have been saved. Book says and their works follow them.

Regarding Saturday only for church, the Mosaic Law was never give to the gentiles. There was a big to do about that in Acts. The letter sent to the gentile assemblies never told those brethren to follow the law.

The two commandments are fulfilled by the 10 commandments. You love God by obeying the first four and you love your neighbor by obeying the last six. It was the traditions of men and the traditions which were made into law which no longer apply. This included the dietary and sacrificial laws which he fulfilled

Jesus made the Ten commandments simple, we should love God and love others. If we do this, we will fulfill the commandments. Going to Sunday, Saturday, and Midweek Worship services is our religion. Loving God and others everyday of our lives is our faith. Religion is what we do for God. Faith is allowing and trusting God that He will enable us to do great things for His Glory and to others for His Glory.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, making Him your Lord everyday makes you fulfill the Sabbath everyday. One man considers one day holy, and another considers everyday holy. If you consecrate each day for the Lord, you make each day holy. Never mind about the physical rest that goes with fulfilling the Sabbath if you think being in Christ each day will give us enough rest, or much better, renewed strength everyday in doing His commands.

If you are an Israelite or a Jew, do what Moses has commanded you to do. If you are a christian gentile or a christian jew, do what Jesus has commanded you to do. Don’t give your tithes to the church if someone in your family badly needs it, give it to them instead. Don’t rationalize that God needs it more than your Parents who are in dire need, beware of the yeast of the Pharisees. Whatever you do to others you do unto God (Sheep and the Goat). Man is created in God’s image and likeness.

Religion that is pure and pleasing to God is this; to care for the poor, the orphaned, the widow, the oppressed, the destitute, the needy; and to make one’s self holy and kept from being polluted in this world. Those who does not take care of the needs of others especially those in the immediate family is worse than an unbeliever and are called hypocrites. God loved Cornelius even before he became a christian. God felt his love through his devotion in prayer and love for others especially to those who are in need.

Thanks for your comments. They are much appreciated. The end times are indeed scary. But they are a time that God will pour out His wrath on unbelievers, not believers. So rejoice. I’ll give you 2 reasons not to be scare of Revelation and to read it:

1. We know the ending –

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. – Revelation 21:1-5

We will once again live in paradise, openly seeing God and living in righteousness. It will be the world as The Lord always intended. And all the pain, struggle, trials and death in this world will be gone, forever.

2. You will be blessed

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. – Revelation 1:3.

And re: feeling unworthy. If you feel unworthy of the blessings of the eternal kingdom and being a co-heir in Christ, that is GREAT! That is evidence of the Spirit of God in you. The Spirit is what serves to convict us and remind us of our sin nature that still exists in our Earthly flesh. Only a believer in Christ’s salvation can so readily recognize her sin and inadequacy before The perfect, just and righteous God. So you are right – we are not worthy. But Christ IS WORTHY. Christ did all the work and paid all the cost to earn our salvation for us. That’s why Ephesians 2 says that salvation is “the GIFT of God.” if you have to work for a gift, it’s not a gift! It was done out of love for you, by The Lord, Our Father in Heaven.

Jesus is the only answer people it is his blood by his blood we get forgiveness of sin. it is by staying in him by the continual refilling of his holy ghost that gives us the believers the power to overcome sin. I say again it is in him and him(Jesus) alone least any one should boast. It is keeping this faith alone and showing this faith by how we live are lives and not turning from such that will allow us to inter into the rest of Jesus and stay there. Now how to get there? you must be born again you must have that new spirit inside which causes one to have a right relationship with the lord and causes you to walk in this life with power to overcome sin in that when you sin and we are all sinners, you can boldly go before the throne of grace and ask for forgiveness because when God looks at those in Christ all he see’s is……the blood for that is what washes away all say it with me all ……..sin!

When you receive the holy ghost and one starts to walk in the spirit that spirit will cause you to know all truth what truth you say? every word in the holy bible which is the word God because we believers should know by now who is the word of God in fullness you know the one who said ” behold I come in the volume of the book” and all so said ” man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeded out of the mouth of the living God “. So you see if one would give his life over to Christ and let him live through you (the temple of the holy ghost) he will give you power to over come sin and obtain life eternal for that life is in him and in him alone there is no other way no other method no other saving grace he Jesus is the only way and if one would seek him you will find him. the Gospel is simple and yet foolish to most but it pleased God to use foolishness to confound the wisdom of man. God said his foolishness is wiser than all men and God said his weakness is stronger than all men! what a God! So where dose that leave man? you had better get to know Jesus for your self and let him change your life for in him there is no condemnation however with out him you are condemned already why people keep missing this point is beyond me but it takes the power of the holy ghost to show it to the people Jesus called for many are called but few chosen meaning that we man are all called but very few will chose him over car house wife money children lust all of which are…the pride of life and it will take many to hell that serve it just that simple except Christ and live knowing you do not deserve it because of sin or reject him and die in you sins and be lost for all eternity for however which a tree is cut that is how it will fall.

This is a good attempt at studying the Biblical prophecy. However, I find the following descepancies in the article:

1. You have said the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned – Actually the tribe of Ephraim is mentioned in the 144000 as tribe of Joseph. So both Manasseh and Ephraim (as Joseph) are represented in the 144000.

Now why Ephraim is called as Joseph here?

“And take another stick and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim” (Ezek 37:16).

“So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim” (verse 19).

2. You have said the Rapture occurs at the opening of the 6th seal – I checked the description of the sixth seal opening. I was unable to see anything that may denote any rapture there. Wondering how you have got that idea.

3. You have stated that the Great Tribulation is interchangeable with the Day of the Lord – I see these two are separate events. The great Tribulation occurs at the fifth seal and the DoL occurs at the sixth seal. Don’t you see that?

4. You have mentioned about “demonic beings torturing the human beings” – I see them as the modern war machinery like fighter planes (locusts) firing missiles, “the sound made by their wings was like the noise of many horse-drawn chariots rushing into BATTLE” (Rv 9:9). The horses out of whose mouth came fire, smoke and brimstone (Rv 9:17) could very well be the tanks used in war by “ARMY” (Rv 9:16).

Thanks very much for your comments and questions. I will try my best to address your points.

1. Ephraim – Well, the name Ephraim does not appear there. I believe we agree on that. You raise a very good point, Ephraim is counted back into Jospeh in Ezekiel 37. However, it this author’s contention that what is being depicted in Ezekiel is the end times spiritual revival of Israel to come during the Day of The Lord. So could it be that this reunion takes place at the time of the sealing of the 144,000? It’s plausible, but I lean toward it happening later as the remnant comes to a believing faith in Jesus Christ. This is a very good point.

3. The Day of The Lord and Great Tribulation – “Great Tribulation” is a term used to describe the Day of The Lord on 2 occasions in the New testament by The Lord Jesus Christ. The Day of The Lord is by far and away the most frequent Biblical term for the end times in Scripture. In our modern eschatology studies, the terms “tribulation” and “7 year tribulation” have been used to the point that much confusion arises (since the former is not a proper noun and the latter is not in the Bible at all). For a detailed explanation of the Day of The Lord as described in Scripture please see the article The Day Of The Lord – The Event That Starts The End of The World.

As for the 5th seal, it is an account of the souls Christian martyrs throughout the era of the church under the altar of The Lord. It takes place entirely in Heaven, so it cannot be the Day of The Lord, which are judgments poured out on the Earth. However, as shown in the text of the 5th Seal, it directly precedes God rising to judge the world, to avenge the blood of His murdered saints, which takes place at the 6th seal and the subsequent trumpet and vial judgments.

4. Military vehicles in Revelation 9 – I very, very strongly disagree with you here. The notion that the spirit beings who emerge from the abyss are somehow helicopters, fighter jets, tanks, etc., has no Biblical support in this author’s view. We have to approach Scripture with a healthy respect for what is very clearly says. At the 5th trumpet, an angel is given the key to the bottomless pit. The bottomless pit is a real place. It is the abyss – a prison where demonic spirits and fallen angels reside at present (Jude, 2 Peter 3). It is also referred to as “the deep.” And the beings who emerge from it are not human. They are spirit beings from the spirit realm. I believe they look just how John described them. These beings are going to be unleashed on the unbelieving world to torment it.

To interject that somehow these were not coming from the pit, the angel with the key was say, a President authorizing war or things like that, is adding a lot of person-made ideas to Scripture. Furthermore we are told that no one dies from the attacks of these beings from the pit If all this were military fighting for five straight months, how could it be that not one person dies? That does not follow logically.

The end times world will be one of a mix of humans and spirit beings who can physically manifest before people. Remember, the Antichrist is not a “normal man” himself. He comes back from the dead. He performs miracles. The False prophet will be able to literally call fire from Heaven. These are not allegories. These are factual statements given for our admonition.

I am very familiar with various ideas that make the Antichrist “a nation” and all of these spectacular descriptions in Revelation as allegory but am not in agreement with them. Thanks again for your comments as you raised many thought-provoking questions. God bless you abundantly. -B&E.

Sorry, but the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not begin in Revelation until the Beast shows up in chapter 13, then not until the angels of chapter 14 warn about not taking the mark. So they really do not begin until the start of chapter 15, where we see the martyred saints are beginning to enter heaven.

I too think when the pit is opened these scorpion locusts are some kind of beasties from hell.

John teaches us that the Day of the Lord begins at the great earthquake of the 6th seal. This fits perfectly with what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5, that the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY. However, the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not come until Rev. 15. The entire 70th week is marked by the 7’s: 7th seal, 7th trumpet (midpoint) and 7th vial. The 70th week is inside the Day of the Lord, and the days of GT are inside the 70th week.

Good response and thanks. (These discussions help in deeper studies of the Scripture).

1. Ephraim – I do agree that Ephraim is not mentioned in 144000. But then the question remains: who/which tribe is represented by Joseph here? Joseph had two sons. One, Manasseh, is mentioned already. Then who Joseph represents ……. unless it is Ephraim?!

2. After reading “Red Moon” article I am a little confused. Quoting 1 Cor 15:51-53 you say that the Rapture occurs at the last Trumpet. Yet none of the 6 trumpets and the seventh and last Trumpet occur in the opening of the Sixth seal.

Trumpets including the last (seventh) trumpet all occur at or after the opening of the seventh seal. The dead rise at this last trump and so the true rapture should occur at this point. Yet you write the rapture occur at the sixth seal when none of the trumpets occur. I do not know how to reconcile this.

3. Initially I too thought the Great Tribulation and the DoL are the same. But I found Jesus saying something different.

“for then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.” (Mat 24:21).

From the above, it is very clear that this Great Tribulation (Megaley Thlipsis) is a unique event; one only of its kind because Jesus emphasises that such has never happened before and such will not happen afterwards!

(You are very much right that general tribulations are always there for the true believers. But this great tribulation is unique)

Then Jesus says:

“And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened …………………….” (Mat 24:29).

So the Day of the Lord happens after the Great Tribulation. I do not know how you will look at this.

4. Military vehicles – I acknowledge your disagreement here. However, look at the following points, for a possibility:

The star that fell on earth is not a good angel. The Bible never talks about good angels as falling to earth. It is always the fallen angels especially Satan who are depicted as falling to earth. Besides, the Rev 9:11 identifies this angel as Abaddon/Apollyon, ie, Satan!

It is Satan who gives his power and authority to the Beast in Revelation: “And the dragon gave him its power and its seat and great authority” (Rev 13:2) and “And they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast” (Rev 13:4).

So I see in Rev 9, the falling star/dragon giving authority to the Beast who start to win over the political world with the war machinery. Remember, “the whole earth will be marveled at the beast” (Rev 13:3) saying “who could make WAR with the beast” (verse 4).

Now, regarding why no one dies for 5 months; it could mean that the beast will use yet to be invented chemical /biological warfare that do not kill anyone but tortures only!

Is the bottomless pit a real place? I doubt!

The beast is shown as coming out of the bottomless pit in Rev 11:7. Yet, the beast comes out of the sea in Rev 13:1. So bottomless pit is symbolic; it need not be a real place.

And what is most amazing is this beast is NOT a new thing to occur at the end of the world!!! THE BEAST WAS IN THE WORLD BEFORE!!! The beast continued in the Middle Ages. But it is not there now or today. But people are familiar or aware of this beast through the study of history. That is why when the beast comes up AGAIN, the Bible says that people will marvel at it because they are familiar with it through history.

“That beast was once alive, but lives no longer; it is about to come up from the abyss and will go off to be destroyed. The people living on earth whose names have not been written before the creation of the world in the book of the living, will all be amazed as they look at the beast. It was once alive; now it no longer lives, but it will reappear.” (Rev 17:8)

It was during the reign of this Beast that Jesus Christ came to stay on earth in the first coming! Again it will be during the reign of this same Beast that Jesus will come again to stay for ever the second time!

Daniel identifies this (fourth) beast:

Yes, it is the ROMAN EMPIRE that comes after Babylonian, Medo-Persian and the Alexandrian Greek empires (Dan 2:39-40)!!!!!!!!!!

The great Image Nebuchadnezar saw was standing on two legs of iron. No wonder, in history, Roman Empire stood on two capitals; one in Rome and the other in Byzantium/Constantinople!

Yet the Second Coming of Jesus (“the Stone cut out with no hands”) will be at the time of “ten toes” of this same Roman Empire. These “ten toes” are identified as the “ten horns” of Revelation that stand for “ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast” (Rev 17:12).

The whole earth will be amazed at the spectacular rise of the old Roman Empire from Europe in new attire in the future for “forty two months” (Rev 13:5)! (No wonder both the world wars originated from Europe, the seat of the Beast!).

So the Bible says this Roman Empire with a great Dictator will rise from “the bottomless pit” showing clearly that the bottomless pit is not a real place!

1. Ephraim – I think this point is debatable. It’s just a matter of perspective and timing. Perspective in the sense that I hold to the belief that one of the main purposes of the Day of The Lord is the reconciliation of Israel to The Lord Jesus Christ. So that would be the reason for sealing the 144,000 right at the beginning and they prepare to witness to Israel and the world at large. Timing because I agree that Ephraim is indeed reconciled back into right standing with The Lord. It’s just matter of does it take place at the time of the sealing of the 144,000 or does it take place during the Day of The Lord. I lean to it taking place later on and at this time they are still not in good standing. But I completely see your point as valid and you could be right.

2. The Rapture – Remember, 1 Corinthians was written decades before the book of Revelation. So I do not believe that Paul saw the Revelation given to John before John Himself did. That being said, I do not believe that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is “the last trump.” I believe the last trump is an idiom for the Feast of Trumpets, the feast in which God ordained a gathering of all the people. I believe that feast is a type and shadow of the Rapture and this is what Paul was referring to. The Jewish marriage (as described in Scripture) and the Feast of trumpets are both used as typologies of the Rapture. I hope that clarifies my position.

3. Matthew 24:19-21 – These verse have become the foundation of entire end times viewpoints in the past few years. Megas thlipsis is also used by The Lord Jesus Christ in Revelation 2:

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation (megas thlipsis), except they repent of their deeds. – Revelation 2:19-21.

So rather than being a unique event (i,e, one day or one hour), Jesus is describing a period of time. And this time period is the Day of The Lord. In fact, I believe that in the verse you cite from Matthew, The Lord is quoting Joel chapter 2:

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. – Joel 2:1-2.

This is the time period being discussed. Again, it is critical to understand the Day of The Lord and its MANY description in Scripture to grasp the end times timeline. Jesus is just making a reference to the Day of The Lord in Mathew 24.

As for Matthew 24:19 (“immediately after the tribulation of those days…”) it is my contention that “the tribulation of those days” is the Church Age. The Church age goes through “tribulation.” The unbelieving world in the end times experiences “Great Tribulation.” Matthew 24 is a very complex chapter but I believe this is the distinction being made here. We are told very clearly that the events of the first 4 seals are not the end times. Luke 21 also adds to the understanding of this. The 5th seal is persecution and martyrdom of Christians which takes place right up to the opening of the 6th Seal. These events are the “tribulation of those days.” And this is why we see the four signs from the 6th Seal described by The Lord in that verse. I hope that makes sense.

another thing to consider – At the 7th trumpet, where is the Rapture church? Where are they located? We don’t see them anywhere in the text. Yet after the opening of the 6th seal and BEFORE the opening of the 7th Seal we see the multitude that no man can number, of all races and ethnicities, just pop up out of nowhere and suddenly appear in Heaven. This is the Raptured church.

4. The Beast/ Military Vehicles – We are still in major disagreement here. Like, very major. lol. Satan and his fallen angels still have access to Heaven (this is confirmed in Job 1 and 2). They are still operating in the air and exercising limited authority over human affairs (Daniel 10). So the angel who falls in Revelation 9 could very be an evil one. Could this angel be Satan? It’s very possible. But certainly it is most likely an evil angel who opens the bottomless pit.

You say you do not believe the bottomless pit (or abboussos in Greek) is real. Scripture shows us the exact opposite:

26 And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee. 27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. 29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) 30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. 31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.(abboussos) – Luke 8:26-30

The demons were very aware of the abyss, referred to as “the deep” here (and it is called “the deep” no less than 20 times in the Old Testament). It is clearly a specific location, which they were frightened. On top of this, The Lord Jesus Christ acknowledges their request and grants it, casting the demons into pigs instead: “32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.”

This place is a prison for evil angelic and demonic beings. It is referenced in both Jude and 2 Peter 3.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. – Jude 1:6

These angels are literally bound in chains in a prison. And that is the abyss – also known as the bottomless pit and the deep.

The Lord Himself went there:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. – 1 Peter 3:18-20.

So again, these beings are released at the 5th trumpet. This is not a conventional army. It is a supernatural army from the spirit dimension. The angels who once showed themselves openly in the pre-flood world are now being unleashed as a tool of God’s judgment. Read the description of these beings and then read Joel Chapter 2 (about Joel’s army, which many pastors have very erroneously taught is a “good” army of super Christians). It is the same group of beings that are described. A locust-like army with superhuman ability.

This of course is a MAJOR issue in end times prophecy today. The predominate view is one of military machines being described. Whereas I hold to the view that the end times final kingdom will be a hyrbid – human-angelic kingdom. Hence Jesus saying “as it was in the days of Noah…” In the days of Noah, the b’nai ha elohim, fallen angels, were openly interacting with humans, marrying women and having hybrid offspring. Jesus references this specific time period as what the world will be like at the time of His Coming.

5. The Roman Empire – Daniel chapter never identifies the Roman Empire as the final kingdom. I do not believe in a “Revived Roman Empire.” The fact of the matter is that Rome was added to Daniel chapter 2. The name just does not occur. In later chapters the Medo-Persians and Greeks are confirmed but never Rome. Again, this is because the final kingdom before the Coming of The Lord is not Roman. It’s a hybrid Kingdom. Hence the “mingling themselves with the seed of men”, the precise sinful activity that took place in the days of Noah.

I could say much more on this, but knowing we are so far apart on this topic, I will just close here. I just want to share my perspective so you know where I am coming from. This has been a great discussion and I welcome any further response you have. God bless.

Though Paul did not see the vision John did, Paul was still inspired by the same Holy Spirit to say “last trumpet”. The Holy Spirit knew of the vision John was going to see so it was no problem for Paul to be inspired to say “at the last trumpet”.

There is not much evidence for the last trumpet to be the Feast of Trumpets. That’s another PTR assumption. The best evidence for a ‘last’ trumpet is in Revelation. It’s the only NT time trumpets were used.

“Though Paul did not see the vision John did, Paul was still inspired by the same Holy Spirit to say “last trumpet”.

Where did you find this information? Additionally, please note that John never uses the phrase “last trumpet.” He says “seventh trumpet.” And Paul doesn’t say “last trumpet” he says “last trump.” So why wouldn’t Paul use exact wording if he was divinely inspired to have the same vision?

The Holy Spirit knew of the vision John was going to see so it was no problem for Paul to be inspired to say “at the last trumpet”. “

Once again, John does not use the phrase “last trumpet.” You are just asserting this even though it is not in Revelation. Not to mention you are making Paul the author of a Scripture that would make no sense to his audience whatsoever because it was 25-30 years before Revelation. Paul, by your speculation, is using the phrase “last trump” completely out of context, with not even the slightest of indication in the text as to what that “last trump” will be. No Scripture in the entire Bible is written this way. -B&E

B&E, you’re kidding right? Since when is a trump not a trumpet? Trump is just a short version of the same word. 1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed). [Amplified Bible.]

1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If the scriptures are our basis for this, is not the last trumpet to be sounded predicted in Revelation? No where else in the NT is the term used in this regard.

I thought all scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit & was profitable… Peter equated Paul’s writing to the “other scriptures”. That’s where I got my information.

Hey, no one understands Revelation fully, but it’s there, just like Paul’s last trump, when the trumpet will sound. You don’t even understand the truth of the word regarding Yeshua Messiah’s 2nd advent. That’s why you have to make stuff up. 🙂

I know that trump is another term for trumpet. That is not the issue I am raising. What I am asking is if Paul received the same Revelation of 7 trumpet and a “7th trumpet” where the Rapture supposedly takes place, why would he not use the exact same wording that John uses? John never refers to it as “the last trump.” So why would Paul do so? Additionally, Paul would be making a completely out of context reference to a future prophecy that his audience could never possibly understand (as he was writing 2-3 decades before Revelation). He doesn’t even see “at the last trump, which will be revealed in the future…” or something to that effect. Nowhere do we find such confusion in Scripture. The idea that the “last trump” is the 7th trumpet of Revelation just holds no logical or textual support.

All Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. That does not mean all Biblical author’s received the same revelation. The Bible proves this over and over again.

You still have not demonstrated with Scripture where the Raptured Church is. Where are they? Because I do not see any raptured group or mention of them at the 7th trumpet when we actually look at Scripture. -B&E

Now you are playing semantics. I did not say Paul had the same revelation as John. I said the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to say “last trumpet”. You are saying because Paul used a different term he meant something else? It’s like saying ‘auto’ instead of ‘automobile’. The words mean the same though they are different.

There is only one last trump/trumpet given us in the NT, the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Paul was inspired to say ‘last trumpet’, John said seventh trumpet. So what? The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet.

Those who are trying to teach an extra Biblical doctrine always run into these problems.

So if Yeshua said He would raise up ALL His own at the last day, that’s means something else, right? Like how you tried to say the wheat in the parable of wheat & darnel/tares aren’t Christians but Jews.

John 6:39 And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should not lose **any** of all that He has given Me, but that I should give new life and raise **[them ALL] **up at the last day.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed means the **children of the kingdom**; the darnel is the children of the evil one,

Yeshua said “children of the kingdom”. You said they are Jews, a dodge to supplement the PTR teaching. But NO ONE can be a child of the kingdom without being saved & brought into the body, bride & church of Messiah. Children of the kingdom would include Jew & gentile, any one who is born again by the Holy Spirit of Yeshua.

B&E, I already did. At the last day, the harvest when the last trump/trumpet sounds, when Yeshua raises up ALL His own & comes, returns & appears.

I don’t use the term ‘rapture’ because it brings the false doctrine of the PTR to most believer’s minds. I prefer second advent for the return/appearing/revelation of Messiah.

I don’t say the term in general is incorrect, just the way it’s been twisted to say Yeshua’s 2nd advent is divided into 2 parts that are separated by 7 years & that future members of the body, bride & church of Christ will be left behind.

2. I do not think Paul needs to see the Revelation written by John to learn things. Paul says that he did not learn anything from any of the apostles, Jesus Christ teaching him directly (Gal 1:12).

I also wonder how you got the idea that “the last trump” is an idiom for the Feat of Trumpets!

Then what about this?:

“Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel’s voice, and with God’s trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first.” (1 Thessa 4:16)

I don’t think Paul is talking about the trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets here.

I believe Paul refers to the seventh (last) trump at which time, the Son of Man on the clouds comes down on earth (Rev 14:14) to reap the harvest (rapture?).

As I said before, this occurs after the seventh seal. But according to you the rapture occurs at the fifth seal.

Still this is a problem for reconciliation.

3. No I did not mean that the Great Tribulation is for one day or hour. The GT is for precisely “forty two months” (3 1/2 years) when the Beast ‘will make war and overcome the saints’ (Rev 13:5-7).

(The 42 months of GT is still in the future because the Beast which was in the world before is not there today. But it will come for a short period (indeed 42 months is a very short period for any political system) and will go into perdition – Rev 17:8).

So GT is a period of time distinct from DoL as per Jesus Christ. This GT time period is a unique time in the sense that this will be the Tribulation of all tribulations; a culmination of all troubles at the end. (Yes, DoL is also unique).

So when Jesus says “immediately after the tribulation of those days” He means the days of these forty two months. This is my understanding.

Yes, I asked myself; where is the rapture mentioned at the seventh trumpet. Here it is:

(The seventh trumpet occurs towards the last part of 11th chapter whose time flow continues in the 14th chapter. Chapters 12 and 13 are insets)

“…… and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.” (Rev 11:18)

“And I looked, and behold, a white cloud. And on the cloud sat one like the Son of man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand.” (Rev 14:14).

“And He sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.” (Rev 14:16)

“And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire. And those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.” (Rev 15:2)

Isn’t this the real rapture?

4. Yes, we are in disagreement over the locusts as military machinery.

5. It again is true that Rome is not mentioned in Daniel. However Daniel tells that a fourth kingdom will come after the Babylonian empire (Dan 2:39-40). He identified the second and third as Media-Persia and Alexander’s Greek empire respectively as you said. History shows that what followed was the Roman empire!

The first, second and third empires (beasts) were not hybrid kingdoms. Hence the fourth empire also will not be any hybrid kingdom.

The Bible identifies the Roman empire in Revelation 13:2:

“And the beast which I saw was like a leopard (area and characteristics of Alexander’s empire), and its feet as of a bear (area and characteristics of Media – Persia) , and its mouth as a lion‘s mouth (area and characteristics of Babylonian empire)”.

Only Rome had these areas or parts of these areas and their characteristics.

The “mingling themselves with the seed of men” – this could mean the democratic set up of the government when men will elect these ten kings into powerful positions.

Until the end of Second World War, kings and queens ruled Europe (Roman Empire). But now they have democratic governments.

These democratically elected ten kings/Presidents will hand over their power to a real fascist Dictator (17:12-13) who will push the world into the final World War!!

They are the first fruits of the lamb, the remnant seed of the Woman , The Elect of God. During the Advent of Pentecost St.Peter quoted Joels Prophecy, into the Army of God to the Invincible ones, Rank & File, come in the Post Advent of Pentecost. For they care not for their own lives but keep the commandments of God & have the testimony of Jesus , they follow the lamb whereever He goes.

It was really interesting to watch that debate on works and salvation. It was like watching two puddles of water argue over which ones wetter…lol.. what i get from scripture is that you cant get to heaven by just faith or just works. You could be a person who has strong faith in god but treat others as trash. You could be a person who does good deeds all the time but does not believe in God. So i believe through faith you aresaved and through works you keep it! Repent and sin no more is a work i would think. God bless

Stacey, It seems that your premise is incorrect: if you were a person of strong faith, you would not treat others as trash. if you believe in Jesus, you would hold onto both of his commands – Love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. I certainly hope a true believer, someone with strong faith, would not treat themselves, or others, as trash!

If you have real Faith, if you LOVE God, if you truly believe in carrying your cross and Following Jesus, then you will naturally WANT to do God’s will (which may be doing works in the power of His grace).

However, it is definitely the TRUE faith that saves us, and the works are the evidence of that faith. Faith without works is dead. In other words, if you truly believe, you will truly be doing good works because you believe.

Its possible that one might do “good works”, but only for selfish reasons (for example, a politician who is NOT a true believer feeds the homeless Turkey dinner with all the accompaniments on Thanksgiving, but does so for the photo op, or good publicity, or votes. He could do it all year long, every election year, till the cows come home…he won’t be saved.

If he thinks he believes,goes to church every week, studies his Bible because he finds it interesting, but doesn’t have a heart to love others…and do good to them, to serve others…he will not be saved. This is an empty, worthless, false faith, not a real faith.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus could only do the one work Yeshua emphasized–This is the work of God, that you believe on Him Who God has sent.

John 6:28 They then said, What are we to do, that we may [habitually] be working the works of God? [What are we to do to carry out what God requires?] John 6:29 Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you: that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].

Works or good deeds cannot save anyone. However, if good works are not following us, we need to find out why.

If the old testament is to the coming of Christ the New testament is to the eagerly awaited Manifest Sons of God ( Rom -8:19). They who are the 140000 ones called The Israel of God (Gal:6:16) off the Covenant(Gal 3:16) these are the first fruits of the Lamb, following Him where ever He goes, The remnant seed of the Woman, the Lamb itself being the first, arisen out of the Enmity put by God between the serpent & the Woman & by their seeds at Eden, for it concerns the salvation of man- They who are redeemed among men, all males not defiled by women meaning averse to any sort of sexual corruptions, The Elect of God- sealed with His Name, The Brethren of the Elohim(Sons of God in heaven) is but to remember one of whom (Archangel Michael) wrestled with the Patriarch Jacob to introduce the name Israel meaning The Inheritance of God -the trainers of the Manifest Sons, Spiritual in character, for the Spirit is the basis of Life, They who Reign with Christ for the 1000 years called the Millenium & the fruit of their work are the uncountable nos. in Revelations standing before the Throne of God in white garments . Again they who keep the commandments of God & have the Testimony of Jesus, for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. A visitation from them reveals the words of Jesus in the fullfillment “The many that I Love I rebuke & Chastise; “My Yoke is easy & my burden Light “, against Sin hence no appeasings contrary to the Appeasings & the Ear pleasings of this world even by its Prophets, all in all “Err nor for the Son of Man comes not to condemn but to save”. They who detect & track His Sheep , For unto St. Peter was said “Feed my Sheep’. They test the Sheep by the Two Commandments , first by the Second & then by the First , For as is written of the manner “If you cannot love your Brethren whom you can see how then can you love God whom you cannot see”. The invinsible Army of God, rank & file to the Prophecy of Joel come in the latter rain called the Post Advent of Pentecost filled with the Holy Spirit led by the Lamb. An Army is also to war , for against Him the nations gather to war, to the Prophecy . O Egypt , Egypt thy days are numbered, for the war of King Josiah has to be fulfilled in the Spirit & truth of it & Lo who can stand against the Lord of Hosts.

I am familiar with the 60’s-70’s doctrine & teaching about this subject when it was a ‘hot item’ with many Pentecostals. I sat under Brother Sam Fife a little back then & he was wrong about the manifestation of the sons of God. I recognized the error after wondering why his teaching didn’t bear witness to me.

The sons of God filled in the spirit led by the lamb , the REMNANT seed of the Woman , the first fruits of the Lamb is the Church that moves in the spirit against which the gates of hell will not prevail, For we wrestle not against Flesh & Blood but against Principalities & Powers rulers of dark places, against Spiritual wickedness in heavenly like places’ which are represented by the many alters Figured in the British Freemasonic Israeli supreme court, from which the CIA is learnt to have borrowed TO instigation the torture/Terror Tactics even the many false flag operations, is no surprise all but to death in whatever names, against which the sons of God by the Church in the Spirit act, to which I witness, the seed of the Woman they who are not defiled by women( for then the sons of God married the daughters of men unto the cause of the destruction by the flood) reflected by the sexual corruptions of the day unto “Sodom” by its Agendas, against the basic family structure instituted upon the First Holy Family of God. The very Abominations, that the sons of God, by the Church in the spirit battle against & by them many be saved, to revelations of the countless ones that stand in white garments, cleansed in the blood of the Lamb before the Throne of God- The Ark of the Covenant , that which Apostle John witnessed in the temple of God in heaven.

im one of your avid readers though silent and my first time writing. i have question regarding the about “The great multitude” and the “Raptured Church”.

you said in this article that ” Church Age ends with the Rapture ” where “all born again Christians / Church [have been] will be removed from Earth” and then comes the “judgments of the Day of The Lord ” which is also called the Great Tribulation.

Now, why is that on your other article (Who are the Multitude of Rev. 7…) says that the multitude who got caught up to meet with Jesus during the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation are the Raptured Church?

I guess I’m just confuse with the sequence here, If the Rapture of The Church would take place before the Tribulation, how come that The Church would be on the same group which is The multitude of The Great Tribulation?

Thanks for asking a very good question. What I meant to convey in this article is that the Great Multitude are indeed raptured before the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation and are in Heaven during it- as in the entire time. I will update the article to make this clearer. Thanks again and we hope that you continue to visit the site! May God bless you abundantly.

where it says that the people left behind who come to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord after the rapture will to be known as Tribulation Saints and that in Rev 7:9 describes the number as a “great multitude, which no man could number.”

i was at the impression then that these “Great Multitude” are the results of the effort made by The 144,000

I think what i want to know is when did this “Great Multitude” suppose to appear before God,

is it right after the Rapture as they are the Raptured Church

or

during/ending of Tribulation as the AntiChrist will persecute all people on Earth who proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ which i supposed Christians will be martyred.

This is to B&E u guys are a constant BIBLICAL blessing. I am a born again believer and i must stay your faithfulness to the Word GOD and Christ Jesus is an inspiration. And by there way that comment you made in response to Toni the SDA was amazing. You utterly destroyed her with scripture!!!. Keep up the work GOD bless.

A lot of people think it’s in Revelation 19 because of the many articles and videos on the “post-tribulation” rapture model. The belief is basically that the Church will endure the entire Great Tribulation, get raptured just before the Second Coming and come right back down in an instant with The Lord at Armageddon. Of course the problems with this model are numerous, but most notably, we don’t see the church being raptured in chapter 19. Where on the other hand we clearly see the Raptured Church in Revelation 7.

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To the 1.44 k- All that Jesus said Mary kept in her heart. In Rev. the crown of 12 stars worn by the Woman clothed in Glory denotes the remnant seed/first fruits of the lamb, the redeemed from among men-. All males, not defiled by women meaning averse to any form of sexual corruption the core of which is Sodom – The Spiritual Israel, the crown itself , the very heart of Jesus, denotes her Glory from the rising of the sun to its setting. Now at Cana He said “Woman, what is there between you & me, My time has not yet come” For Mary spoke in the flesh, but Jesus replied in the spirit. For when that time came, on the cross, the fruit of his words became a gift unto her “Woman, behold thy Son” a star on her crown- The beginning of redemption & in the fulness of time unto the Prophecy of the marriage supper of the Lamb

Hi B&E Can you explain to me please why Rev chap 20 v 4 says “I saw the souls of those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their forheads, or in their hands {this is the point i want you to clarify) and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Now if the church has already been raptured ie: the dead and those alive will be caught up (Thess 4 v 7 Pre trib) and DONT get to the point of taking the mark of the beast and so forth, how comes those of rev 20 v4, after the church has gone, when the timeof Jacobs trouble begins and the week of Daniel chap 9 comes into play for the Israelites marked by God in their forheads, get to be resurrected and reign with Christ for a thousand years, is this ANOTHER ressurection of the dead for it says they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Please clarify your position. Thank you…In Christ.

The end times will have some very distinct groups. The Church will have been raptured at the opening of the 6th seal which starts the Day of The Lord – so right away we are gone from the Earth. Israel will be divided among the believing 1/3 remnant and the 2/3 who will remain apostate. And then among the Gentile world there will be the minority of new believers in Christ who come to saving faith during the end times and live under the reign of the Antichrist as outlaws and the rest of of the sinful, rebellious world who will comprise the majority of the global population.

The believers among the Gentiles will face the death penalty for their faith. No questions asked. Scripture makes this abundatly clear. Refusing the mark of the beast (which can be taken in the right hand or forehead) is a capital offense. So there will be a number of new Christians, living in the Great Tribulation, who are martyred for their faith. And this only makes sense as God is providing a great deal of Gospel witness during the end times. The 144,000, the 2 witnesses who witness and torment the entire world for the first half of the 70th week, angels flying around proclaiming the Gospel and The Lord Himself speaking from Heaven are just some of the means by which witness of the faith will be made in the end times (all detailed in Revelation). So there will be new believers and they will indeed die for their faith.

Revelation 20 is after the Second Coming, so by by any Rapture model, the Rapture has already past. And Jesus will now resurrect the Tribulation believers who were martyred. This is called “the first resurrection” because it is the first resurrection in the Manifest Kingdom of God on Earth. From a divine perspective, Revelation 20:1-4 is a very big deal (even though it gets little attention in prophecy articles and books), the Earth is literally being ruled by The Lord and Satan is now in chains. This is a new world and the Millenial Kingdom. And the Great Tribulation martyrs are the first being resurrected in this new Kingdom.

The Second Resurrection is the resurrection of the unbelievers and occurs at the end of the Millennium. Clearly, this could not be referring to a literal “first and second” resurrections because there were many resurrections in Scripture before these (the resurrection of The Lord being one of them). What the first and second signify is their being the first two resurrections in the Kingdom of Christ on Earth. Hope that helps. God bless. -B&E

So, B&E, you are saying the rapture is the end? “I will raise them ALL up at the LAST day [the end].” He that endures to the rapture, err, end will be saved. So, the PTR has to be the end or Yeshua, Paul & Peter are misleading us.

Again, the plain & simple parable of wheat & darnel/tares. Yeshua makes it easy. Wheat was planted, false wheat planted a bit later. Lord of the farm says let them grow TOGETHER till harvest. Harvest is the END OF THE AGE when judgment comes & the darnel/tares are taken 1ST.

Show me where there is an interruption between both plantings & harvest. There is none!

Paul tells us 2 Timothy 4:8 [As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed His appearing (His return).

Even Peter gets it wrong according to PTR teaching. 1 Peter 5:4 And [then] when the Chief Shepherd is revealed, you will win the conqueror’s crown of glory.

So, according to PTR teaching, we are tacitly told that Jesus, Paul & Peter don’t have it right regarding Messiah’s 2nd advent.

If we are to believe the PTR heresy, Jesus got the scenario wrong, as there has to be a removal of some ‘wheat’ before harvest & some new wheat has to planted because of the 144k’s revival. Paul got it wrong when he used the word ‘appearing’ & Peter blows it by using the words “…Chief Shepherd is revealed,…”.

Silly Paul & Peter! Every one who believes the PTR knows they should have said “comes” or “His coming” instead of “appears” & “revealed”. 🙂

The believing remnant of Israel will be on earth during the Great Tribulation. They are the wheat among the tares. They are the ones who will be raised on the “last day.” This is what Martha meant in John 11 when she said:

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. – John 11:24.

This cannot be referring to the Rapture, because the Rapture was still a mystery at this time. So what is Martha talking about? The resurrection and gathering of Israel that takes place at the Second Coming. But by this time, the Church is gone. When Jesus returns to Earth at His Second Coming, the church is WITH HIM. Israel is awaiting Him.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. – Matthew 23:39.

Yeshua said the wheat are the children of the kingdom. Matthew 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed means the children of the kingdom; the darnel is the children of the evil one,

To be a child of the kingdom one must be born again & washed in the blood of the Lamb. The early church was made up mostly of Jews. Now it’s mostly gentile who welcome Jews into the fold, so to speak.

Yeshua didn’t say the ‘children of the kingdom’ were only Jews. Of the twain, Jew & gentile, Yeshua will build His church. Of the two groups Father wants to bring forth one new man as Paul put it.

It should be clear that Yeshua was saying that the children of the kingdom are His followers.

Here is a quote from the New King James as it appears in their study notes on Matthew 13:25.

“13:25 his enemy came and sowed tares: Tares closely resemble wheat, but are poisonous to human beings. They are indistinguishable from wheat until the final fruit appears. Farmers would weed out tares just before the wheat harvest. Until Christ returns, both genuine believers and counterfeits will be allowed to remain together.” Quote from page 1598 of the Thomas Nelson New King James Bible.

Now that we know that the church will be here till harvest, again I ask, where is the interruption between planting of wheat & tares & harvest that indicates another advent before harvest & that ‘replacement wheat’ is planted, indicating a revival by the 144,000?

“To be a child of the kingdom one must be born again & washed in the blood of the Lamb….It should be clear that Yeshua was saying that the children of the kingdom are His followers. ”

The Lord Jesus Christ said:

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. – Matthew 8:11-12.

So you are mishandling God’s Word with the statements you are making. This is why it is so important to examine passages and rightly divide them in context. Notice the passage you quote is 5 chapters AFTER the one I cite. So if you were reading the entire book of Matthew contextually, your error would be apparent. Just throwing out statements and insults does not make for proper Biblical learning and growth.

I hope at this point you can at least concede you have misinterpreted foundational end times Scripture and then we can have a fruitful discussion based on looking at Scripture and not trying to poke at one another. God bless you abundantly.

You are half right. Matthew 8:12-12 refers to those Jews who rejected Messiah. As the verse says they will be cast into outer darkness.

You are wrong about Matthew 13:38. Here is why.

Matthew 13, Amplified Bible

37 He answered, He Who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

38 The field is the world, and the good seed means the children of the kingdom; the darnel is the children of the evil one,…[Emphasis added via italics.]

So what happens to Matthew 13’s children of the kingdom?

41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offense persons by whom others are drawn into error or sin] and all who do iniquity and act wickedly,

42 And will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth. 43 Then will the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God) shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him who has ears [to hear] be listening, and let him consider and perceive and understand by hearing. [Emphasis added via underlining.]

Yeshua called the wheat “the good seed…”. If this refers to those who will be cast into outer darkness, why did Messiah call them good seed? If these are Messiah rejecting Jews, what qualifies them to be enabled to shine forth like the sun in Father’s kingdom?

You are so blinded by the PTR teaching & narrowly focused on eisegesis based preconceived meanings & definitions that you didn’t see this distinction. That does not show open mindedness.

Why Yeshua called both groups children of the kingdom I am not sure yet. More prayer & research by me for that coming up. My first thought is that in Mth. 8 Jesus is talking about the OT religious economy. In Mth. 13 He is referring to the new Kingdom He is establishing in the hearts of those who follow The Way.

“Why Yeshua called both groups children of the kingdom I am not sure yet. More prayer & research by me for that coming up.”

With all due respect, this is one of the major problems with much of the Rapture debates that take place today. You made a statement quoting The Lord Jesus Christ in a manner that was in complete contradiction to Scripture. You based your interpretation of an end times passage on this mishandling of the text. And then when it shown to you, it’s just treated as no big deal. Rather than just stating that you very blatantly mishandled the text, you have just pressed on and continue making new points on the same passage.

We have to be very, very careful that we approach Scripture with proper deference and humility. No one is going to get everything right. We are all going to make mistakes and grow in our understanding. But we should not so casually dismiss our erroneous interpretations. You cannot continue to interpret a passage that mentions “the children of the kingdom” when you do not know what that phrase means.

I would also add that a major weakness of the Amplified Bible is that it offers multiple definitions for words. Hebrew and Greek are extremely colorful languages that need to be interpreted contextually. Especially in the Bible. The Amplified offers multiple definitions of words irrespective of their context in the verse. I am just offering this as an aside. But with respect to the earlier discussion, I will just respectfully agree to disagree. -B&E

Hiya B&E. Seems like you are the ones ignoring scripture. And you accuse me of mishandling the Word. PTR advocates are the ones who proof text a 2 stage 2nd advent & have to mishandle the Word & overlay meaning on verses to do so. If these are not two different children of the kingdom designations, why do they have different ‘fates’?

Why do the Matthew 8 children go into outer darkness & the Matthew 13 children shine like the sun?

Back atcha with all due respect bro/sis, but you still can’t show me a verse that on it’s face, in it’s primary meaning, shows a 2 stage 2nd advent of Messiah.

If the PTR were plainly visible in the NT, & didn’t need propping up via eisegesis we’d not be having this discussion.

My point is that there is no such thing as a 2 stage 2nd advent. Yeshua is returning/coming/appearing/being revealed only once more. No direct statement in the Book contradicts that view.

That’s why I posted the verses by Paul, Peter & John that use the terms for the 2nd advent interchangeably.

If you insist on believing & teaching this false doctrine fine. But are you also ready to resist the beast & the system that is being put in place as we discuss this? Will you have enough oil in your lamp to resist the mark, which just around the corner. That is one of the reasons why the US economy is purposely being collapsed & using electronics for monetary payments is being introduced.

As I said earlier, I can afford to be wrong when I say we must be ready to ‘go the distance’ to the end & love not our lives to the end. We must have reserve oil, which is Holy Spirit anointing. If there is a PTR, I won’t miss it as I am one of all who Yeshua Himself said would be raised up at the LAST day.

Like the adage says “Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.”

Thanks. I mean no offense.

We have to be ready for what’s coming. My flesh would not mind being ‘raptured’. But I can’t find where my physical being takes precedence over my faith & the higher priority of a relationship with the Godhead.

Can you show me where the Amplified gets it wrong? The real weakness of other translations is the one word for one word way the original languages are translated. Not that’s terribly bad, they just don’t always convey the fuller meaning of many original language words. I also use the New King James & the English Standard Version.

The two are the Children of the flesh & the Children of the Spirit .The ‘ole covenant that was made in the Physical come as the New Covenant in the Spirit. for God is Spirit & the whole purpose is to His Inheritance, for Israel means Inheritance., even unto the Prophecy by the Prophet of the Covenant Jeremiah in 2 Maccabees2 is unto the words of Jesus “You know not the Father neither the Son them unto whom the Son pleases to reveal” to the revelation of the Arc of the Covenant, for unto God there is only one Covenant that which Apostle John saw in the temple in heaven, where by the Prophesied revelation the Glory is seen just as Moses saw the “Inheritance’ upon the mount, this come about individually in the Spirit unto His Final gathering unto Himself. irrespective of the land that one dwells in for all of Earth is off the lord,. In conjunction to His words “It is finished” said on the Cross & as the Bible says His words are Spirit is to the Prophecy of Daniel “When He would have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all these things would be finished” Unto the redemption of man to the Final Inheritance as stated.

As with Elijah and the 7000 that had not bowed the knee to Ba’al, it is with us. This says that if God had not saved himself a remnant of people who truly love him and worship him, we would have been like Sodom and Gomorrah. Remember Abraham’s request? “If there be found ten righteous, will you spare the whole city? God, said yes but he found not ten.

So he has saved himself, out of mercy for the rest of humanity as remnant of people who love him and will live righteous lives so that he >>>CAN NOT<<>>>elect’s sake (and only the elect he will shorten the tribulation) those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Take that how you will.

Are we going to hang around in the clouds with Jesus for seven years as we wait for the others to be raptured and resurrected? Where in scriptures does it literally even figuratively say that Jesus will come back and forth to get His Bride batch by batch?

Hi B&E In chap 24 of Matthew right at the start thedisciples ask Jesus 3 things…1, tell us, when shall these things be…2, what will be the SIGN of thy coming (greek parousia meaning presence)..3, and of the end of the world (age). I would like your thoughts about my thoughts. It is interesting that they asked Jesus for a SIGN of His coming (presence) because if you couple up v 30 with this particular question it says “then shall appear the SIGN of the son of man in heaven” now could (which I think is feasable) the SIGN that they (the 144,000, those sealed) see… be the rapture?, for they (the 144,000) SEE Him coming on the clouds (they dont go to MEET Him in the clouds as the church does), this would tie in with the angels words to the followers of Jesus (the fledgeling church) in Acts chap 1 v 9-11. These chosen 144,000 israelites, not jews, Israelites, will experience an immediate blinding flash, somewhat like the apostle Paul (theres a story there too) and they will automatically know who they are. Then as it says in v 31 ” and He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet (yom terruah, beginning of the next 3 fall feasts) and they shall gather His elect (144.000) from the four winds. Then next for the Israelites comes the “days of awe” a time to contemplate where they are in relation to God and look at themselves, there past sins and to put there house in order. Then atonement when there sins are placed upon the scape goat “The Lord Jesus Christ” its then that Romans 11 v 27 comes to full effect. After this the feast of Tabernacles, Succoth, The 1,000 year reign of Christ. Rather condensed but I think with your understanding of the scriptures you can fill in the blanks.There are also conotations for the church regarding the 3 fall feast, but for us, the church, this takes place in Heaven, but mostly brothers I’d like your thoughts on the first part of this post. Thanks brothers…In Christ.

Thank you very much for your comments. You wanted my thoughts on the first point you make which I believe is this:

“”In chap 24 of Matthew right at the start thedisciples ask Jesus 3 things…1, tell us, when shall these things be…2, what will be the SIGN of thy coming (greek parousia meaning presence)..3, and of the end of the world (age). I would like your thoughts about my thoughts. It is interesting that they asked Jesus for a SIGN of His coming (presence) because if you couple up v 30 with this particular question it says “then shall appear the SIGN of the son of man in heaven” now could (which I think is feasable) the SIGN that they (the 144,000, those sealed) see… be the rapture?, for they (the 144,000) SEE Him coming on the clouds (they dont go to MEET Him in the clouds as the church does), this would tie in with the angels words to the followers of Jesus (the fledgeling church) in Acts chap 1 v 9-11.”

My thought is that you are absolutely correct. The Sign of the Son of Man is the Rapture. And yes the use of the Hebrew word for sign, semeion, in the singular, both times, is a grammatical indication that Jesus is addressing the question from verse 3. Additionally, contextually, we can know from other Scripture that the mourning on Earth is at the beginning of the Day Of The Lord. By the time the Second Coming is approaching, humanity is now angry, unrepentant and looking to fight The Lord.

You also make an excellent point by referencing Acts 1:9-11. This verses is very rarely mentioned in any Rapture discussion, yet is a confirmation that Jesus makes two different, distinct, “returns” in the end time.

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. – Acts 1:9-11.

The text could not be more clear. Jesus is going to return in a cloud in the future, just as He left. In Acts, He ascended (Rapture-style) into a cloud. At the 6th Seal He is going to DESCEND in a cloud. This cannot be a reference to Revelation 19 where Jesus very clearly comes to Earth on a horse destroying and conquering all evil.

verse 31 is describing the end of the Day of The Lord/70th week when the believing remnant of Jews will be supernaturally gathered to Jerusalem, something prophesied dozens of times in Old Testament scripture.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. – Isaiah 11:11-12.

For example.

Again, we can see very distinctly that this is not the rapture as it differs greatly from the description of the rapture given in 1 Thessalonians 4.

The fall feasts will all be fulfilled by the Second Coming of Christ and the events afterwards. And they will be fulfilled on their exact days, just as Christ did with the spring feasts (dying on Passover, rising on the Feast of Firstfruits, the Holy Spirit coming on Pentecost, etc.). And Even Hannukah will be acknowledged, which we can know from the time sequence given in Daniel 12 when the angel is asked “how many days…” Not to mention that our Lord validated Hannukah when he attended its feast in John 10.

So in short, very well done. You have been able to grasp a number of complex Biblical concepts. Matthew 24 is an extremely difficult passage to interpret because of the style it is written in (which is actually consistent with lots of other chapters in Matthew but 24 stands out because it has such rich end times content). So to come to these conclusions shows you have been putting in some study time.

Hi B&E Its Paul here once again…I feel like I’m on a bit of a roll at the mo…. so please bare with me. Have you ever thought about the link with the apostle Paul, the time of the end and the Israelites conversion and the fact that he’s a Benjamite. If you go back to the mother of BOTH Joseph AND benjamin ( true blood brothers) as you know, I’m very sure, is Rachel…the one Jacob loved, his SECOND wife ( pictureing the new covenant). Well we know that Joseph pictures Jesus in this story and that he (Joseph) too was loved by Jacob…He had a dream about the sun, moon and the stars bowing down to him. The brothers did not like this one bit and plotted his demise…Joseph had a coat made of many colours…which to me is important in the story…..as i said, please bare with me, the coat, when Joseph was discarded by his brothers, was smeared with blood…a covering for his brothers sin not known or understood at the time…Now if you look to the standards of the brothers…. “jewish” tradition has it that Benjamins flag or standard was all the colours of the OTHER brothers…so God was covering ALL of the brothers with blood to sanctify them, knowing that God was sending Joseph ahead to save them as a peoples Gen chap 45 v7 and Gen 50 v 18-20. God always covers for the outworking of His purposes. Now this (Joseph and Benjamin/ his brothers lives) pictures Jesus with the whole of Israel being covered. Now shoot forward to Jesus’s trial and what happened there, once again there is blood involved with a covering taking place. The crowd are asked by Pilate who would they want to SAVE, Jesus or (Jesus) Barabbas ( meaning son of the Father) who do they cry out for…Barabbas…This brutish wicked sinner of the worst kind, “release him” they cry, let His blood be upon our heads and upon the heads of our children and the heads of our childrens children. Now when you break this down what you get is….son of the father (Jesus)……release the most wicked of sinners (us for rejecting you)….and His BLOOD DE UPON US AND our children, ( let a covering take place). I believe God was covering His elect who would have the direct line through the Benjamite class, who are a composite of the Israelite nation (All, I beleive of the apostles were Benjamites from Galilee) Now spring forward to The elects day (yet to come). I believe that Pauls conversion, remember he specifically in scripture tells us he’s a Benjamite, equates to the elects conversion. In Matt 24 v 27 it says “for as the lightening cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall the coming (Parousia, presence) of the son of man be”, They (the elect/144.000/Benjamine class) see a flash of light that is all around them This is the miraculous conversion of this benjamin class, equal to Paul the Benjamites conversion when he too saw a blinding light…and then what does he (Paul) immediatley do after 3 days when his sight returns…he goes and preaches to the nations, exactly what this newly converted class of 144,000 will do as they have already been sanctified by the covering called out by there relatives at passover 2,000 years ago Also I would like to say that the woman spoken of in Rev 12, I beleive, equates to this dream of Joseph in Gen 37 v 9,10. Jacob tells him “shall I and THY mother (Rachel, the second wife/covenant) and your brethren, (all Israel) INDEED come and bow down to ourselves to thee to the earth….It happened in Joseph’s day but now the true Joseph, our Lord Jesus, and His brethren, the nation of Israel, the elect at the time of the end, truly will bow down to Him and owe there lives to Him….He went on ahead to first save the gentiles (Egypt) then His own. This woman is the very essence of the nation/144,000 giving birth to the Messiah, Rev 12 v 1,2 says “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clother with the sun (Jacob) and the moon (Rachel) under her feet and upon her head a crown of twelve stars (Nation of Israel) a composite picture of the new covenanted nation aboout to give “birth” (a knowing of who there |Lord is) and she being WITH CHILD cried, travailing IN birth, and pained to be delivered” satan does not want this to happen at all, but she is delivered v 5 “and she brought forth a male child (Jesus being birthed in there hearts) who was to rule the nations with a rod of iron, and her child (Jesus just having been born in there hearts) was caught up unto God and to His throne, (never to be rejected again as He was caught up to heaven) v 6 ” and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, and THEY (2 witnesses?) should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days” Now are these witness really people or are these witness the law and the prophets that “feed” these ones and nothing can hurt them while there “feeding” and “being fed” as they (2 witness and the woman) have Gods protection. I would like your thought s once again. I am sorry my thought s maybe jump here and there but I KNOW you have enough understaning of scripture and the Holy Spirits guidence to fill in my inabillity to explain….Thanks brothers…In Christ.

im worried about the error that this writer is advocating , the fact that you put the trumpets in the future is clear that your understanding of the 140000 is not biblical. i would request next time dont post error cause you will mislead many peolpe and their blood will be on your hands

Thanks for your comments. Seeing that you believe my interpretation is grave error, why not simply post the relevant passages and rightly divide them for myself and the other readers to see. Disagreement is welcome on this site. However, I do not always understand telling someone they are in serious Biblical error without actually showing the proper interpretation. I am always open to Biblical correction. So if you would care to post the portions of Scripture that you believe are relevant and then rightly divide them I would be more than happy to read it. -B&E

B&E, I & a few others have shown direct scripture statements that absolutely blow away the false teaching of the PTR heresy. If you don’t listen to the scriptures, why would you listen to Bevuya?

You have your minds made up & all we have seem to have done is confuse you with facts.

The 2 stage 2nd advent that leaves future Christians behind is NOT taught in the Book. All you have is a huge pile of eisegesis wrested verses that have no Bible basis. ALL the PTR teaching is based on overlaying meanings & definitions ON to the scriptures.

You really need to repent. You are leading people astray with this false extra Biblical PTR teaching.

Thanks for your comments. With all due respect, you have not made substantive arguments. Name calling and assuming motivations, is not a way to divide Scripture. You have not simply gone to the Rapture articles, find the passages you feel are incorrectly interpreting Scripture and then rightly divide for all of us to see.

As I have said before simply saying “you define with eisegesis..” or “you’re entire position is eisegesis”, is not an argument. I have invited you several times now to simply go to the articles on the Rapture (this article is not one of them) and find the passages of Scripture that are misinterpreted. And then simply provide your rightly divided interpetation. I am always open to Biblical correction.

For reasons that I cannot fathom, there is a very strong sense of factionalism and competition when it comes to viewpoints on the Rapture. We are all agree that the end times are future events. Therefore we can all be wrong in trying to discern when, how and where Biblical events will transpire. So I do not see a need to take hostile or mocking tones as if this is all took place yesterday and we have 100% certainty. I truly love a good Biblical discussion, even in complete disagreement. But let’s do it with the fruits of the Spirit.

As for your question about Christians living in the end times, they will not be “kept” or protected from Earthly harm. The Bible is abundantly clear that Christians will be killed in large numbers by the Antichrist. He will conquer the saints bodily:

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. – Revelation 13:7.

2 Timothy 4:18 [And indeed] the Lord will certainly deliver and draw me to Himself from every assault of evil. He will preserve and bring me safe unto His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen (So be it.)

As we know, Paul was killed. Fox’s Book Of Martyrs is all about some of those who have been murdered for Yeshua’s sake.

Martyrdom is not a proof for a 2 stage 2nd advent or the need for a pre trib rapture. Yeshua also said we must follow Him even if means dying. I posted verses of what He said in that regard around here somewhere.

B&E, you didn’t address this: “I asked once some where around here 🙂 , If Father can keep the so called trib saints, why can’t He keep us? Please give a yes or no for this Q: **Can Father keep us if we were in the trib?** No stuff like “He won’t have to.” or whatever. Just Yeah or Nay. Thanks.”

this rapture fable is not biblical , from genesis to revelation you do not have rapture its a fallacy and human theory that cannot be substatiated by the word . 1 thessalonians 4:13. is clear it does not talk about rapture it talks about the second coming .

joe, were you replying to me clt, or just everyone in general? I got your reply in my email cause I checked the boxes, I went to your website but there is no way to write you on it. If you were replying to me I will talk to you about my post, I think I was not clear, I don’t know but I’m like you I don’t argue and i think I am respectful of others views, oh well I don’t get to talk about the bible to many people as it has beenmore than a year ago since I wrote that post, thanks clt

I was just responding to the question in general. I wasn’t specifically addressing any one person. I’m sorry if I caused any confusion.

Thank you for visiting my site. The reason I didn’t put a comment board is because I didn’t want to debate and argue with people. My most important message is that we all look to our own personal relationship with Jesus, that we grow closer to him by letting him purify us through the Holy Spirit. Then we can get to a place where we don’t need to rely on others for the truth about bible prophecy or anything else important. I believe God’s wisdom is available for everyone, not just a chosen few.

I am not anti-Church by any means. But I do not go to church and was not taught anything that I have learned by anyone- it was given to me directly by God through many years and many mistakes and errors on my part. My message is that God can do for others what he did for me, even if we do not have anybody to help us on earth. I was once so lost and confused….but because I never gave up and never let go of Jesus, he eventually gave me courage, confidence, wisdom, love and many other wonderful gifts.

Now I don’t have to live life confused or worry about this or that. All I ever wanted from the Lord is to know the honest truth about all things, no matter what path that took me down. I firmly believe that if we will love him and the truth over everything else in this world, he will strengthen us and fill us with his love.

The truth is very hard to take. It’s not easy to be shown that what you are is dirty and that many things you do are not honest. But if we swallow our pride and let Jesus purify us, we can reach a place of such love and strength that nothing or nobody around us can hurt or deceive us! 🙂

If you’d like to express your views about the Lord or just talk in general, feel free to email me:

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3Those who are wise a will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

This prophesy that Daniel was given doe not relate to the end of the Earth, but to the end of the Israelite role in Gods plan. This prophesy predicted the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Now the Bible states there there are two periods of Resurrection, and two types of Deaths.First Resurrection happened when Jesus Resurrected.

“ At that, the veil of the Temple was torn into two, from the top, to bottom, the earth quaked, the rocks were split, and the tombs opened, and the bodies of many holy men rose from the dead, and these, after his resurrection, came out of the tombs, entered the Holy City, and appeared to a number of people” Mathew 27:51-54 ,

This is the First Resurrection dealing only with those Chosen 12,000 from each Tribe of Israel. It has already happened.

” — Till the last one is sealed & then will the end come ” for the end is not yet come which means the last one/ones yet to be sealed which but denotes that the Israel spoken off is the ” Israel of God” – Spiritual Israel, quiet contrary to the Zionist (freemasonic) spirit gathered in violence even more contrary to the words of the Most High ” Not by Might neither by Power but by my Spirit says the Lord of Hosts”. However the falling away from the Faith spearheaded by the Anglican & its episcopals through the so called reformation into thousands of denominations, all so fallen into “Sodomic Agendas” is an indication towards the end, for that which stands against the gates of hell is not the Church that move in the world but the One that moves in the Spirit.

In Rev. 14, it said that the 144K will follow Jesus wherever He goes. If you said that those who came from the Tomb when Jesus resurrected were the 144K, then give me scriptures that gave an account that these 144k followed Jesus during his last 40 days ministry on earth before He ascended to Heaven.

abey, if it seems like I was mocking or making fun of you I apologize. I did not have that attitude in my heart. I am not superior to you, so I would not & do not, have the ‘right’ to put you down. That was never my intent.

B&E suggested your 1st language may not be English. If that is true, would you aided by using a translation website to clarify what you are trying to say? At one of those sites you can enter your language & have it translated to English. Then you can copy the English & post it here.

Suggest you stop getting too personal, for your ways are as the first horseman of the Apocalypse riding a white horse with a bow which is to exerting his will, for a sure twisted, but seemingly white. Now the essence of the word is the language of God & not the word by the language itself & when that language is portrayed above the word , it becomes void of the essence ,then the language itself become Hypocritical & Hypocrisy is what Jesus hates the most, without exceptions whether in kind or in deed., freemasonry by theosophical philosophies has this at its core & is no wonder that Hitler slept with it, and to be, if Prophecy be revealed , for it is all too evident.

B&E, can you please fix the CAPTCHA Code thing? I get a lot of unreadable boxes when I know I put in the correct letters & numbers. I have to copy & paste a lot of replies. Some I’ve lost & had to rewrite. Thank you!

2nd attempt for this reply.

abey, does what you related about the language of God & so on, include the verses I posted? Is there any thing of the language in the verses that I got wrong? They aren’t MY verses…I got them from the Book & I really didn’t write the Bible. But you knew that.

I am like the white horse rider? Now abey, isn’t that accusation a VERY personal one? Did I call you any names? I don’t recall doing that….no worries, I didn’t take offense.

The Bible speaks about the Apostates & the Apostasy- To the Apostates it states” They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us , they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” & the Apostasy is to making another Christ another Gospel to the first horseman unto bringing in Hearsay through twistings & churnings like Gender neutral bibles or even the Feminist one, usually for reasons of popularity & political correctness away from the founded traditional truth, come down by the Apostolic faith, against the same faith making the truth of God unto a Lie. So my point of reference was neither personal or an accusation but to the truth for correction, is also to the wisdom of the biblical words of not engaging in vain debates, for serving to win debates points to a superiority complex not of the Spirit. No hard feelings, when it comes to contention for the truth, by the Spirit.

This is a Great Sound Biblical Truth on the 144,000, teaching the word of God without compromise. God abundantly bless you for sharing God’s Words to cancel misinformation and misrepresentation that misleads people.

This is a great article. I usually don’t comment when I read articles, but I just wanted to say thanks for the solid biblical teaching. This is the same conclusion I came to when studying these passages and taking Scripture for what it says.

Now God at Eden put an Enmity between the serpent & the Woman by their seed, now it is revealed that this particular seed of the Woman was the Christ , the son of the living God, called the Lamb , now this Lamb bare fruit & are called the first fruits of the Lamb which are them that revelations speak as the “Remnant seed of the Woman” notwithstanding that the Lamb itself is the first seed spoken in Genesis. Now at the wedding in Cana to His first Miracle He did tell Mary “Woman- what is there between you & me , for my hour is not yet come”. The revelation of these words came unto her as a Gift by his words on the cross upon the hour “Woman behold thy son & John behold thy Mother ” The beginning of This Generation unto the redemption of mankind, revealing John, the beloved Apostle, as one of her remnant seed even unto the Prophecy of the marriage supper of the Lamb. The no. of the first fruits of the Lamb are the 144000 thousand (The remnant ) from the 12 spiritual tribes known only to God – Spiritual ’cause the foundation of the 12 gates of New Jerusalem has the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb , off the Covenant that commenced in the Physical by letter come in the spiritual by the spirit. where there is no Jew or Gentile & these are called as the “Israel of God” in the NT. For in the Prophesied coming of Christ it is these that come with the Lamb & through them later are a large multitude of mankind saved as mentioned in revelations, washed in the blood of the lamb. This is revealed in the wisdom of Rom 8:19 wherein Creation waits in Earnest anticipation for the manifestation of the sons of God. The hope of redemption. So that Enmity put by God at Eden come unto the redemption, to the salvation of man.

Can you imagine if you people were in charge of anything, had any responsibilities etc. The ramblings of the insane (or well on the way there). Abey is clearly writing from her laptop in her pretty white cell. Freaks!

It is also to know that , to the Enmity there is in opposition the seed of the serpent in latter times called as the Synagogues of satan .within & without, one of their main characters is that truth is alien to them & live by “Deceit” through Sorcery , pretending themselves to be some sort of gods sitt’in the Pride except that they are unable to see their own backsides just as sodom did, having heightened senses & speak out of their own farts. That is another chapter altogether.

I’m one of the 144000 conformed into Emmanuel’s mirrored image sent here in the end of days to guide you to the Light. The one world government, the first beast, receives a deadly blow on Passover 2016 and the second beast, Satan, heals that deadly blow and you and the rest of the world will be fooled by Satan himself. We 144000 will be the only ones that are not deceived. Satan will be arriving with 11 billion fallen angels in flying saucers. Just as God did to visit Ezekiel in the creature that traveled as fast as the speed of lightning. Satan has control over all religions, governments, educational institutions and the financial system. You have already received the mark of the beast for believing that there is only one God. It takes a God to create man and Abba Yahweh Father said Let Us make man in Our image. We 144000 are His offspring and His sons. We are all called Lord Yahshua Christ and we are the men created perfect mentioned in Hebrews 12 23. There is no rapture! The cloud that Abba Yahweh Father returns in is the cloud of souls that died before us. And the air that we are lifted up into is our spirit bodies. The entire world will be turned into spirit bodies not just the believes. We 144000 anointed sons will be delivered by our Christian family and friends to our enemynext year and we will say our testimony for the whole world to hear it in their own native tough. Then we get our heheads chopped off and 3 and a half days later we will rise to our feet in the streets of Yahrusalem. And in that same hour Abba Yahweh Father returns and all will bow!

Said Jesus “My sheep hear my voice” & unto the Apostles “Go unto the lost seep of Israel & unto Peter “Feed my sheep”. Now to the revelation of the words “SHEEP & VOICE” was witnessed the Church moving in the spirit led by St. Peter himself identifying the SHEEP by testing for the TWO COMMANDMENTS- THE VOICE, confirmed in revelations to the “Elect of God who keep the commandments & have his testimony” Also called the Israel of God & there are no two Israel but one, unto Himself to His eternal Inheritance, as Prophesied by Prophet Jeremiah in 2Maccabees2, 4-8 even as Jesus said of the manner “You know not the Father neither the Son but them unto who the Son pleases to reveal” Is also to know that the very foundation of the 12 gates to New Jerusalem have the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. Therein is revealed some of the 1,44,000 , the Church (the Remnant seed of the Woman), witnessed moving in the spirit against which the gates of hell will not prevail, prophesied from ‘ole by the very spirit of Prophecy itself, even as the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy.

“Zionism & Rapture’ brought through the British Nelson Darby’s & Scofield references, to say having a common origin to these two beliefs, for if one is true then the other also which invariably makes one false if the other be false. Now this rapture theory that is been taught in almost all protestant denominations based on the Biblical words in 1 Thessalonians 4 “— caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sir—“. As a Clue the truth of this points to the event on the Mount of Transfiguration where Jesus himself was caught up in the spirit with them “Moses & Elijah” representing the law & the Prophets to meet the Father, & before him was transformed into his glorious state, thus indicating to his inner circle Peter, James & John himself as the Lord from heaven. And of this manner are them who are “Caught up to Him”. Now the important part is that Jesus did not “run away” to the Father but completed his tour of duty, resurrected & then went up to the Father, indicating the way of them who are ” caught up” to Him to the prophecy. Is there any wonder as to how this so-called Rapture theory has caused multitudes of Christians to become “Complacent”: instead of contending for the faith, led into the Apostasy by which satan was able to slip in the Sodom- The very Marker, by the law, such that not only leaders like Hillary stand upon its very platform but is spearheaded forcefully especially by America to spread its errors abroad like said some Africans ,”America comes carrying sodom on one hand & aid on the other hand”, is but to discern the spirit behind this to the many alters ” Figured” in the British freemasonic Israeli supreme court Lo Egypt revealing the gods of the golden calf,, Thus makes Zionism to be also false for as mentioned one compliments the other. For a “Mixed multitude” then ,” Figured” the golden calf to make a feast unto the lord except that they ended up worshiping the ‘holy cow” then & now, defines the worship of the created instead of the Creator. ‘To be caught up to Him in the spirit is to be eventually resurrected in the Body. For it is the Spirit that declares the truth , even as the Bible says ‘His word is Spirit” This “caught up” prophecy also relates to the words of the Catholic St. Bernard to an “Intermediate ” coming of Christ in the “Spirit & Power” only to some, his saints, the elect of God , Where in the first coming was in the weakness of the flesh & in the final coming will be in full Glory.

A lot of what has been said on this page seems to grapple with 2 issues 1. The timing of the rapture 2. Spiritual gender And these 2 issues are actually points around which satan launches his missiles of confusion and deception against the church. Confusion in the sense that by not accurately or rightly interpreting one aspect of scripture other aspects of scripture end up not fitting and a distorted whole is created which is poisonous. A little leaven leavneth the whole lump… a little error in one aspect will make the entire picture erroneous. Deception in the sense that just as he did in the garden of eden,the devil still appeals to self to perpetuate error and falsehood. I’ll address the issue of spiritual gender first… God is male, Jesus is described as the express image of the father. What that means is if God were to be take on human form, how would He look… He would be male hence Jesus. The extrapolation from this is also true and that is whatever the spiritual representation of the physical male is then that is what God is. A 2 dimensional world can contain circles and squares but cannot contain cubes and spheres. A 2 dimensional person living in a 2 dimensional world cannot even conceptualise cubes and spheres. Now a 3 dimensional world can contain 3 dimensional structures such as cubes and spheres as well as 2 dimensional structures such as circles and squares. If a 3 dimensional individual wanted to go into a 2 dimensional world, only his 2 dimensional aspects would be perceived in that world but it doesn’t deprive him of his 3 dimensional essence and nature. In other words if a cube wanted to go into a 2 dimensional world he would come as a square, a sphere would come as a circle. Jesus came in the physical to show to us as best as we may conceive what the Father is in the spiritual. With regard to the timing of the rapture, let us bear in mind that Jesus warned us specifically about deception concerning this issue (see Matthew 24) it is also noteworthy that the kind of deception he warned us about is the type that posits false christs and false timing of his coming… 1. Many will come in my name saying I am christ 2. If they say he’s in the fields… Paul also warns about deception with regard to the timing of our Lords coming (see 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8) Clearly all the deception we see today with regard to the timing of the rapture had been prophesied What does the bible say The exact sequence of events has been given in Matthew 24 Further specifics were given in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, 1 Corinthians 15 v52 In these passages we see the sequence and we know that rapture will occur at the last trumpet So my recommendation is that we plug in the trumpets of revelations into our analysis of events while bearing in mind that our rapture will occur at the last trumpet.

You will meet, as I have, with people who profess to be sanctified, holy. Now, there is a bewitching influence carried with this doctrine. They will state to you wonderful exercises of mind to show you that the Lord is leading them and teaching them. Then how can you tell but that the Lord is leading them? Well, there is a test: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20). If it stirs up the enmity of the human heart when the Lord, the great Jehovah, is mentioned, you may know the person has no connection with God. People may claim that they have great faith in Jesus and that there is nothing you can do but that Christ will do for you. Now, when Christ shall call forth the dead, it depends wholly upon your course of action whether you have a resurrection to life eternal or a resurrection to damnation. Thus they get these truths all mixed with error, and they cannot tell what is truth; and if asked to sit down and search the Scriptures with you to see what saith the Lord, I never knew a case but the answer was that they had no need to search the Scriptures, for the Lord told them what to do. The voice of God is speaking to us through His Word, and there are many voices that we will hear; but Christ has said we should beware of them who will say, “Here is Christ, or there is Christ.” Then how shall we know that they have not the truth unless we bring everything to the Scriptures? Christ has 56 warned us to beware of false prophets who will come to us in His name, saying that they are Christ. Now, if you should take the position that it is not important for you to understand the Scriptures for yourselves, you will be in danger of being led away with these doctrines. Christ has said that there will be a company who in the day of retributive judgement will say, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?” But Christ will say, “Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:22, 23). Now, we want to understand what sin is–that it is the transgression of God’s law. This is the only definition given in the Scriptures. Therefore we see that those who claim to be led of God, and go right away from Him and His law, do not search the Scriptures. But the Lord will lead His people; for He says that His sheep will follow if they hear His voice, but a stranger will they not follow. Then it becomes us to thoroughly understand the Scriptures. And we will not have to inquire whether others have the truth, for it will be seen in their characters. Satan Will Work Miracles The time is coming when Satan will work miracles right in your sight, claiming that he is Christ; and if your feet are not firmly established upon the truth of God, then you will be led away from your foundation. The only safety for you is to search for the truth as for hid treasures. Dig for the truth as you would for treasures in the earth, and present the Word of God, the Bible, before your heavenly Father, and say, “Enlighten me; teach me what is truth.” And when His Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts, to impress the truth into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continually search the Scriptures. You should store the 57 mind with the Word of God; for you may be separated and placed where you will not have the privilege of meeting with the children of God. Then you will want the treasures of God’s Word hidden in your hearts, and when opposition comes around you, you will need to bring everything to the Scriptures.

Week 42 AD 595 – AD 644 The temple mount was taken over by the Muslims here in this one.

Week 43 AD 644 – AD 693 They started construction on the Dome of the Rock here. They mark this spot as the spot where Muhammad took his night journey to heaven.

Week 44 AD 693 – AD 742 The abomination that causes desolation, Al-Aqsa Mosque was completed on the Temple mount here in this set of 49 years.

>>>Mark 13 tells you the abomination will be an it, not a him.<<>62nd week<>GOD HIMSELF CUT MESSIAH<their>>>Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the >>>>SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN. ANSWER NUMBER THREE

>>>>Heaven and earth shall pass away,<<>>>all<<<>>unlearned and >>>unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, >>>>>unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”

Week 69 AD 1918 – AD 1967 The tribulation began in this set of 49 years. The Holocaust began in AD 1941.

Daniel’s 3 1/2 years was from 1941 – 1945, the Holocaust!

Then in AD 1945, the war ended and after the punishment was over, he placed them once again into the land of Israel in AD 1948.

>>> The command went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 1967, when God himself gave us back Jerusalem in the 6 day war, a war that we should have by all odds lost, but we didn’t our God fought it for us..<<>>America<<< played a role in dividing God's land back up after HE gave it back to them in 1967.

God RENEWED his covenant with us 1948, gave us Jerusalem back in 1967, and we broke that RENEWED covenant in the middle of the last set of 49 years, when we gave back the Gaza Strip and part of the West Bank in 1993. We divided up his land.

Revelation's 3 1/2 year period began in 2013 and will end in 2016.

There was no 2000 year gap, there is no 7 year tribulation, therefore no pre tribulation rapture. We are about to meet out maker, and it looks like some time this year. It absolutely does have to do with the day of atonement and the Great White Throne is here in the USA.

Defining time, times, and half a time.

Time 70 years Times 140 years Half a time 35 years _______________________ 245 years

All of these blood moons have been right over America. Israel saw none of them at all except for the last one which was situated right in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

He set us up over here in the wilderness and gave us everything that we could possibly imagine, but we turned on him again. The Babylonian captivity is nothing compared to what we are going to see. My God is done here and he is coming back to take dominion of HIS creation. He gave dominion to man in the Garden of Eden and we have destroyed everything.

About four months ago now, I was sitting in my car, waiting for my son to get off from work when a man came up and tapped my car a couple of times with a news paper, handed it to me and said, "I thought you might like a news paper."

When he did this, I was immediately reminded of the dream I had had the night before. In my dream I was trying my best to get a newspaper from one of those machines. I would look into the machine and see the paper I wanted and then put the money in but when I pulled the paper out it was the wrong one. I tried three times to get that paper and quit.

I knew that there had to be something in that paper that God wanted me to see.

I skimmed through it and saw this. There was an article on some of our national parks. The ne that caught my attention was Zion. National Park in Utah. The photo that was there was of The Court of the Patriarchs. You can type on Google images and see this.

As I flipped through Google images looking at the Court, I ran across something else that was astounding to me. "The Great White Throne." It actually looks like a throne. I swear, I was floored. I live here in the USA and have never heard of it. Again, type this in to see it, and please read Revelation 20. God's glory is going to come down on this rock! I can't wait to see him. We are going to see him just like Moses did. We are going to see our God tha same way Moses did. I can't wait to see him.

"THIS" is where God is going to judge the earth? We are the Jews, we are still his people. He is going to make it so hard on us that we will be forced to choose to let go of this world and choose him, this is not only about God's land anymore. America is where his people are.

This is the kicker, in 2017 there is a total solar eclipse right over the eastern part of the USA on August 21(22), 2016 Rosh Chodesh Elul, right after Shabbat Nachamu. The final Jubilee year will be from Yom Kippur of 2016 to Yom Kippur 2017.

God's people are here!!!!!!!!! Rosh HaShanah is soon there after. The End, lights out!!!! The light will shine no more.

God told us that he would use the Sun and the Moon to tell us the end from the beginning. The beginning of a thing is lunar, and the end of a thing is Solar(and the evening and the morning were… o prove my point. We started in Jerusalem, Israel on the Lunar calendar, and will end in New York, America on the Gregorian or Solar Calendar.﻿

St.James, one of the three forming the inner circle of Christ said ‘ Faith without works is dead’ & Protestant Luther protesting against James is but sheer odasity underscoring Protestantism itself by its basis.

St. Jude tells us “Contend for the Faith” & that’s what matters – Rapture or no rapture for that is not of men but of God. Lest, a huge surprise awaits all those who believe in todays interpretation especially so the Protestant interpretation of the Rapture theory whether it be Pre or Post , which but only is seen leading to COMPLACENCY towards the faith, into the prophesied “Falling Away”. clearly indicated by the induction of Sodom, specifically through America., in these latter days.

The two commandments begin with the word Love, which fulfills the 10, it’s very basis & when that basis is removed from the law, the law ceases to be law ending up in legalism even a curse, for the law becomes god, as was/is the case with the Pharisees

Hey I was reading this and dint know who I turn to thought you could help me…. I’ve been among some spirits that don’t belong here and I know I’m not crazy but I don’t care who think I am… I just want to save my FAMILY please help me…and thanks

Sam Fox: To those of us who don’t believe the pre trib rapture & to those who do, I offer the following:

What harm is it if we all prepare as if we will be here to see the mark manifest & implemented? Resistance to the mark is not futile, resistance in mandatory.

Our natural man will be next to useless when the mark comes. Except to house the Holy Spirit that is!

Yeshua said we would be brought before kings & govenours, but not to worry, His Holy Spirit would empower us to speak. We are also told by Paul that nothing or anyone, at any time, in any place can separate us from the love of God. Father is that love, for God Himself is love.

Yeshua also said in the book of the Revelation 2:10 “…for ten days you will have affliction. Be loyally faithful unto death [even if you must die for it], and I will give you the crown of life.” The scriptures tell us that crowns are given out at Messiah’s appearing, per Peter & Paul. Those verses are in a post I left around here somewhere regarding the interchangeable use of 2nd advent terms.

If you disagree, fine. What I am trying to convey is that if we are pressing into Messiah as much as we can, studying His written word, are walking as best we can in the Spirit, have a strong prayer life & a good fellowship, what have we to lose? If we are preparing to resist the mark, ‘just in case’, by doing the above & whatever I left out :-), & there is a PTR, none of us will miss it.

However, if you think on any level “we don’t have to be concerned about the mark because we won’t be here”, will you be seeking the extra oil & preparing for the worst but hoping for the best, in case the Bridegroom tarries, & then comes, is made visible, appears or returns, later than you thought, AFTER the mark?

At this point I believe RFID chips will be used for the mark or maybe an invisible tattoo bar code. I also think the coming mark will cause the great falling away Paul mentioned because extra oil is lacking in those that fall away. I lean RFID cause they can send & receive signals & are better for tracking.

I oppose the PTR because it not any where directly stated in scripture & I think it has caused many believers to slack off just a bit at a crucial time. Maybe not all, but many…& because the mark is here now. There is a slight but subtle difference in keeping our eyes 100% focused on Yeshua Himself & the slight refocused diversion to watching for something He may do. Pray on that. Is your faith in Yeshua or the rapture? Where are your eyes?

Study up on RFID chips & chipping. Here is just one tip of the iceberg article on chips.There are many more articles & videos.

Good stuff , but I see some mistakes. The 144000 are not physical virgins ,They are people who have never fallen in love with another person. Also they will preach before the day of the lord or great tribulation. They will be the truth seekers .They are the ones who follow Gods commands.Prove all things , hold on to that which is good. We are known as the Christian conspiracy folks Peace to all the saints

NOPE! You don’t have to be Jewish. There is no rapture either going to take place or any destruction of the earth, Ecclesiastes 1:4. 144,000 is the first fruits that will be offered to God and then a great multitude that no one could count came. So 144,000 will not be the only people to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

God does not like commentaries. There is no destruction of the Earth going to take place, Ecclesiastes 1:4. The end of the world only affects Christians not the entire planet. God says, “It will be like in the days of Noah and the days of Lot.” 144,000 is the first fruits that will be offered to God and then a great multitude that no one could count came. So 144,000 will not be the only people to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven also the great multitude will enter. The reason no one knows is because God’s word is sealed up until the end times, which are now. The pastors in the churches are not teaches what should be taught at this times so many people are in darkness, Luke 11:52. Instead of guessing go and look for the truth, it’s out there already. God will come to dwell with man really really soon.

Everyone! don’t fight with our neighbor another human trust thr are worst beings that want us and the dome we live on. They fight with other beings for it us. Come together strong one unit be the better team. Americas team unite with other side. 144000 rider here. Jesus Around corner. Tictoc hour glass no more flips. Faith will save u. God bless yall all love

The manna upon the right hand given by Jesus Christ in revelation 2.17, this has happened to a man I know , it a sign of innocent of the crimes they have been accused of which jesusJesus Christ was accused of he is pure son of God the almighty. Also the ark of the covenant had manna stored in it for generations to come well I know this man and he carries the manna the seed of Abraham like a coriander seed, it has given him a new name which only him and the holy spirit knows, you may not understand the mark upon their heads or even met a person with the manna but yes the bible is a family bible a family tree to the chosen one of each generation. People think they understand it churches claim to know the mystery but they don’t know the truth the real king the real chosen the real truth of the matter; but churches will be destroyed no one will marry in her etc , that is because they have become a den of thieves they deceive people and have caused many a war lets understand this once and for all never add to revelation never take away from revelation it is bad. The man I know is a real person they have the pebble of manna and that small sign is how little God boasts of his power how he beats Satanists hands down by not supporting sin and shows that he is very real to us how special this man is that I know to carry the pebble of manna and know the truth and to turn their back on the world of material and greed. Be warned God’s plan is going to occur it may be symbolic to some but it will be literally as it been written beware of false prophets and those wolves in sheep’s clothing , money grabbing war mongering filth.