For context: I have sensory issues, I get an incredible amount of anxiety going in public with the amount of people & noises around me. I wear noise cancelling headphones to help with this so I can function where ever I go, I feel safe majority of the time as I am street wise & don’t go out at night etc but some time ago I got frightened by a man trying to get my attention from behind. I didn’t hear or see him until he touched me. In saying this I confided in a male friend about what had happened & how shaken I was. He bluntly told me that if I wore headphones in public I deserved to be raped because I was opening myself up for an attack. The equivalent of wearing revealing clothing. He advised me to never listen to music/wear headphones in public for my own safety because if anything does happen to me, it’s my own fault.

I genuinely hate that you had to explain wearing headphones to a bunch of strangers online like you're guilty of something.
Idk your story I can't read it (the assault part at least) because it's a sensitive topic for me, but the world can be so cruel and cold and unfair to us..it wasn't your fault in any way and I'm sorry it ever happened <3

I appreciate it. Even if I didn’t have sensory issues I think anyone should be able to wear headphones in public freely. I see many people doing it on their way to work while taking the bus or walking to pass time. It’s much more soothing. No one deserves to be attacked or preyed upon for wearing headphones.

I don’t think he meant deserved. I think he was trying to get you to appreciate the possible danger of the situation by using shocking language. Like a shock to the system.

Clearly it backfired in this situation. But looking back, had he always seemed like a bad person? Or was this the only instance ,and perhaps was someone caring who simply delivered it in the wrong way? I don’t know him so you would know the answer to that best.

I am autistic and have sensory issues, I don't know if I could survive without my headphones, I feel so vunerable without them. I know how you feel, everyone thinks im an antisocial person that hates other people. But headphones just make me feel comfortable in the outside world.

I suffer from BPD & PTSD. I feel this. I just try to go about my day quietly in my own world listening to music, it takes the edge off when I’m nervous or anxious. Even as we speak I’m at home in bed with my headphones on listening to Michael buble~

Where's your data that we are more vulnerable wearing headphones? How many people who heard the subway sexual offender first were able to avoid being groped/attacked because they heard them first?

Calling you on your BS right now.

Edit: To those downvoting, and in direct response to u/psudo_help's half assed reply...I dare anyone to reply with any substantial evidence linking women who are assaulted in public and wearing headphones. Let's kill this myth shall we?

2) I didn't know some pamphlets by the government (that cares so much about women's safety and health) were always right about everything all the time! Thanks to your suggestions, I'll never wear headphones in public ever again, and never be assaulted ever! Since not headphones = 100% aware, and headphones = 100% not aware. And ofc not headphones = 100% protected by an aura of don't-fuck-with-me.

Once again.

How many people who heard the subway sexual offender first were able to avoid being groped/attacked because they heard them first?

Exactly as it is similar to how OP was harassed. She wasn't targeted for wearing headphones. Or being unaware. She was just fucking targeted. Saying she wouldn't have been harassed if she wasn't wearing headphones or she could've avoided harm if she was, is PURE IDIOCY.

Edit 2: To make it more obvious regarding the article above:

The man in this incidents attempted to engage the women in conversation by asking for a kiss or a hug before assaulting them. How are HEADPHONES the problem here

So sounds exactly like what happened with OP. Guy would've bothered her with or without headphones. Just like in any other similar creepazoid situation that I've ever been involved in.

Except you have no credible data backing up your claims. It's like abstinence only education in schools. Because the government says it (one source you have, outdated as shit probably), it must be right? Where's the logic my friend? You are victim blaming, just like people saying if you remain a chaste virgin before marriage you won't get raped.

So far for the often toted advice of wearing headphones to signal to pushy guys that you're not open to strike up conversation! Damned if you do, damned if you don't, right? No, wrong, damn the bloody people who assault others! You are so right to frienddump that guy. Sorry that happened to you and sorry you had to deal with that idiot too.

Are you fucking kidding me? I could walk around NAKED and still not deserve to be raped. Revealing clothing? What the hell?

I'm not a mattress. I'm not a vagina. I'm a human, who happens to be female. I should be allowed to wear tight pants or a low cut shirt. That's not "asking for it", that might just be comfortable dammit.

I wonder if these people who think defense attorneys should be allowed to pass rape victims' underwear around as evidence she "wanted it" would feel the same if a man raped another man. "Look at this picture of him mowing the lawn a few hours before. He was clutches pearls SHIRTLESS! He WANTED to be raped!"

[I'm not saying all rapists are men, I only feel that I see a lot of anti-gay actions in the same demographic that hates women so this seemed like a relevant comparison.and the idea of a woman raping a man (while it definitely happens) has been engrained in our culture as impossible because people want to see women as these weak, delicate creatures who need to be protected and kept under control]

I'm sorry this happened to you. That guy sounds like a psychopath, like who actually says it's ok to rape a woman if she's wearing head phones?

I've had family members make similar comments, including a cousin who said I deserved to be raped because I was wear a knee-length dress at a bar one night. Even though this happene several years ago, I no longer speak to her. Wishing rape on another person is unforgivable IMO..

Not only did he say stupid shit about headphones, but also went for the clothing excuse? You need to get better friends, this is just utterly ridiculous. This is the 21st century, if you were walking naked down the street with a bag of condoms in your hand, no one should ever even think about raping you.

I hope your headphones continue serving you well, and that your new friends treat you even better.

Thank the stars for that indeed.. it's kind of mindblowing when you finally remove (tho it was a year ago for you here) someone toxic from your life and move on. I know it wasn't like he was your SO but - anyway. Keep on being you.

Gosh, I was so upset reading this, I almost downvoted! It's one thing for a friend to suggest you considder skipping the headphones so you can be more aware of your surroundings, but saying you "deserve to be raped" for it is fucking idiotic and 100% victim blaming.

I often wear headphones in public purely for the excuse to ignore people. Don't tell anyone, but I often don't actually have anything playing. I just wear them because I've noticed that people are much less likely to try to talk to me if they think that I can't hear them.

Going back to the original scenario, how would you want someone get your attention if you can't hear them or see
them (like if you're on the train and they want to move past you to another spot)? Think about a possible solution, and if you come up with a good one please share.

Tell him he deserves to have his eyes poked out if he doesnt wear a helmet with visor at all times!
Jokes aside, this is just rediculous, I can't think of any reason to say this other than some severe mental disorder. I'm sorry he frightened you.

Does he have a wallet? Because people like that deserve to have their wallet stolen. You know, he should just not have had one if he didn't want it to be stolen? Or tried harder to keep it save? It's obviously his responsibility so you aren't wrong teaching him a lesson by taking it.

You do not "deserve" to be a victim of a crime because you wear headphones in public; however, it may place you at a higher risk of becoming a victim of a crime since your hearing capability suffers, leading to an all around reduction in your situational awareness.

If he told you that "you deserved it" then he is very vulgar and wrong.

Does he have a wallet? Because people like that deserve to have their wallet stolen. You know, he should just not have had one if he didn't want it to be stolen? Or tried harder to keep it save? It's obviously his responsibility so you aren't wrong teaching him a lesson by taking it.

Honestly, you handled this perfectly. Good on you for dropping this person as an acquaintance. Your mental health is far more important than trying to convince awful people that their victim blaming is wrong.

You are in a difficult situation. I work for a university, and the campus police are frequently sending emails to the community warning us to be vigilant, walk assertively, and don't wear headphones because we can't tell when a creep is sneaking up.

Certainly you have the right to walk around with headphones on, but what do you recommend people with sensory issues do in high risk/crime environments so they aren't targeted?

College campuses, at least in the USA, can be areas of high crime. I don't know about campuses around the world. This has been a notable concern of the U.S. Department of Education, which requires universities to notify students/faculty/staff of specific crimes (e.g., criminal offenses, hate crimes, violence against women, housing fires). Here is the site that provides lots of data on campus crime: https://ope.ed.gov/campussafety

Criminal justice experts have shown that individuals who are not so aware of their surroundings are more likely to be crime victims than those who are vigilant. When a people wear headphones on their ears (compared to on their neck), environmental auditory information is masked (that's the whole point, right?), so it is a lot easier to sneak up, snatch a purse, and make a run for it. Victims are so surprised and taken off guard, they clam up.

I suggest going to your library and doing a literature search so your thirst for knowledge is quenched. If you haven't done that (I don't mean to insult you if you have done this), the librarians are trained researchers and can help you navigate accessing the peer reviewed journals that are usually, because of copyright restrictions, blocked from web searches. I did a quick search accessing social science journals and easily found nine core articles. It turns out our topic is pretty broad. Another provided statistics from people wearing headphones who were zoned out (professionally termed "inattentional blindness") that when they crossed a street, they didn't hear a car horn, was hit by the car. 70%(n=320) of these folks who were hit, died. I also didn't know crooks looked for the white buds because it indicates an Apple device. Cops call these folks "apple pickers". I am certain you will find things that will spark your curiosity. Have a good week.

Omg that's horrid, he's a terrible friend however on opening myself up for attack he does have a point. if you have head phones in you cant fully be aware of what's around you I usually just have one in while walking. Last year I had both earbuds in and got a soccer ball In the back because I couldn't hear.

In my locality ther has been numerous occasions of headphone people getting hit by cars and trains. Even traffic police fines you if you are wearing headphones while driving. I don't recommend using headphones in public unless you are comfortably seated in a bus or metro.

That's not the same as being able to avoid (successfully defend and escape from) a person attacking you though. Common sense like this doesn't cover everything. The data you mention is statistically insignificant or else deaf people would be banned from driving cars, when they are not.

So laws are always perfect responses to statistical reality? Or what are you arguing please? I don't actually know if it's against the rules where I live. I don't do it if you're asking, but what is your point?

Disability rights are often the cutting edge of what reality is, because disabled people (like women and POC) are more often subject to abuses by society. Thus cases where their rights come into question are also where most often groundbreaking science is proven at the highest level...a la Brown Vs. Board of Education and so forth. So, once again, if not hearing something was truly a danger on the road, deaf people would be banned from driving, period end, like blind people are, because they would be unfit (unable) to drive safely.

What the fuck? Wow that escalated. What's your problem that you have to "look down" at people listening to music or podcasts in public while walking? Unless they bumped into you themselves, you're literally grinding an axe over nothing.

Also what is "law abiding citizen" have to do with it? Is walking with headphones against the law where you live? The fucking fuck?

I'm not btw, your thought police. You're free to have as many fucked up thoughts as you want, and I'm free to tell you they're stupid and wasteful as fuck.

Hes not saying you should be raped, or making excuses. Men don't usually talk about their feelings so when presented with something like this he things he is expected to find a solution. So his solution was to advise you to be more aware of your surroundings. I obviously don't know what he said exactly but it sounds like he worded it poorly.

Your friend is wrong that you "deserve" something to happen to you, but this is not a matter of deservedness.

There is a very simple trade off between awareness of your surroundings, and awareness of music in your head. More awareness of your surroundings will give you the ability to anticipate movement around you, reducing your chance of being startled by the various things happening in the world. If you block out that awareness, you are more likely to get startled by things. So wearing headphones in public will make it likely that this experience will be repeated.

My second paragraph is just a statement of fact and applies to everything not just interactions with men. If you are blocking out what is going on in the real world while you are right in the middle of it, you are more likely to be startled by things, whether it is a man trying to get your attention or an oncoming bus. This is pretty rudimentary stuff.

Look this isnt really an empirical claim. You are more likely to be surprised by things happening in your surroundings if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings. Do you disagree with that somehow?

OP didn't say she got groped either, she just said someone was trying to get her attention.

You are more likely to be surprised by things happening in your surroundings if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings.

Empirically asking because I live in the real world where real people have fucked with me on public transit, over decades of riding public transit, I do think it is important to state there is a bottom level of "not paying attention" that headphones alone have no impact on at all. Especially (especially) in broad, sober daylight. In this case, a fucking dick touched her (harassed her) because she wasn't responding to him like she wanted. Saying he wouldn't have touched her if she didn't have headphones on is just complete bullshit. Saying if she hadn't headphones on he would've left her alone is also equally bullshit. Saying she could've predicted his advances without headphones, also bullshit. Saying that without headphones she'll be bothered less in public is also, absolutely bullshit. And I'm calling it now. Empirically, it is bullshit.

OP didn't say she got groped either, she just said someone was
trying to get her attention.

Nope but in relation to what happens to women most often from men and how women are blamed for it, I would claim this is related. OP was harassed by a man, who most likely had sexual motive. OP's "friend" said what he said and made it a sexual argument. Are you denying that is not the argument made by OP's friend? Are you denying that women experience more of this kind of harassment in public than any other kind?

Well I just found it to be the only interesting part of your response.

The rest of it is just you saying that there is no benefit to being aware of your surroundings, no matter what you do you will be victimized so you might as well put on your headphones. Like the other person in the thread said, with this logic why not blindfold yourself while you are at it?

well I just found it to be the only interesting part of your response.

The rest of it is just you saying that there is no benefit to being aware of your surroundings, no matter what you do you will be victimized so you might as well put on your headphones

Except that's not what I said at all. I said there's a bottom level of "lack of awareness" that a headphone does not even remotely affect, SPECIFICALLY in the case of motivated attackers. And I say this empirically. I dared you to provide evidence that it does, and you backed off, making sweeping, obvious oprah-isms (stating the obvious) about being aware in general (which it isn't about at all.)

Just stop. We know you're playing armchair self defense expert when you yourself have not been a victim of any such circumstance I would wager, much less have done anything but simply barf out your most basic thoughts on the matter (that you never applied self-crit to.)

ike the other person in the thread said, with this logic why not blindfold yourself while you are at it?

And like a said to them, with black/white fallacies like these, who needs to even pretend they're rational and have rational arguments?

Yea blocking off 1/5th of your senses, and especially using headphones to block out your hearing, the only one of the senses that would give you some indication of threats that are outside of your eyesight, has no effect on your awareness at all. I get it. You are correct. I am defeated.

So, hearing is not 1/5th of your senses (equally as important as the rest), or else people who are deaf would be banned from driving cars. Are they?

Once again, I'm going to say it one more time because you refuse to admit you have nothing of value to contribute.

How many people who were about to be attacked, (in this case, touched from behind) were 1) able to hear their attacker coming and 2) were able to avoid it having heard it first?

One could potentially argue there might be a small correlation to the sound of cars (quiet cars especially priuses being more dangerous) saving a very small number of people from being hit by them (mostly as they were about to step into a street) based on the sound alone. But what exactly u/Renemancer, were you told growing up before crossing the street? Was it hear both ways? Or look both ways? And how does that correlate to people fighting off or escaping from other people coming to attack or harass them?

I would agree that headphones are the “equivalent” of revealing clothing in this context. By which I mean, neither one of them absolves someone harassing or assaulting you from being 100% responsible for their own actions.

I had to read it a few times, but I think what’s being said is that they’re different because they both invite harassment but they do so in different ways. Revealing clothing invites harassment because it makes someone look “easy.” Headphones invite harassment because they let someone sneak up on you.

Frankly they’re both bullshit, IMO. If someone thinks harassment is acceptable and appropriate, they’re going to invent whatever rationalization they need to to make it “okay.” Maybe they’ll blame the victim's clothes. Maybe they’ll blame the victim being distracted. Suggesting that people are somehow at fault for giving harassers a focus for the blame is counterproductive, because the only way to not give them something is to never step foot outside. Or we could, you know, be clear that the harasser bears 100% of the responsibility for what they do and have clear and consistently-applied consequences for what they do.

Saying anything should be a certain way is a great way to set yourself up for failure. I don’t feel like being mugged or raped and have zero faith in the people most likely to do it to listen to your reasoning. I’ll keep doing what I’m doing thank you.

I think our disagreement is just about terminology. To me, saying that the harassment is “invited” sounds an awful lot like victim-blaming. Perhaps that’s not how you intended it, but it’s how I read it. If someone decides to harass or assault you, they will find/invent some way you supposedly invited it no matter how careful you are. Sometimes the “invitation” they’ll pretend was there is specifically what you tried to do to not invite their attention. Like, for example, wearing headphones. As another poster mentioned, some women are advised that headphones are an effective way to discourage unwanted approaches without doing anything active that would be taken as rude and result in retaliation.

I'm going to go a bit contrary here. I don't agree with him saying you "deserve" to be raped (if those were his words) but I certainly get him warning you that if you are unaware of your surroundings you are in danger.

I know someone who is a marine, who was raped in broad daylight, without headphones, even when she had a gun. Jumped under an overpass as she passed through. She had no time to respond.

When you experience what it's like to be actually robbed, groped, jumped or raped at gunpoint, then you can argue what is and isn't statistical noise regarding causal behavior of victims, and not make a complete jerkass of yourself while you do so.

You have zero evidence for any of your claims, and I'm calling you on it right now. I dare you to show us the statistics you supposedly have, and tell us the correlation coefficients of this non self-reported, raw data.

Sort of correct. I recall seeing interviews of robbers and what they looked for in victims. It was mainly not paying attention to their surroundings.

I'm not a big guy, and I am not going to be walking on some street at night with headphones for what seems to be OBVIOUS reasons. Your 'evidence' f a marine is equally invalid and is the definition of statistical noise. Its just some story.

Listen, we agree on everything here. Except the fact that it is better to be aware of your surroundings then not?

Obviously people shouldnt rape, or Rob people on the street. But it happens. Even if you are seemingly prepared as you stated!! So in response its equally smart to throw up your hands and walk with ear plugs and blindfolded down the street.

May as well tie your hands behind your back and put a sign that says, ive got money come take it. Its all the same right? Teach them not to steal, not me to mitigate risk.

Sort of correct. I recall seeing interviews of robbers and what they looked for in victims. It was mainly not paying attention to their surroundings.

You have less than nothing then, in terms of statistical data.

I'm not a big guy

Oops there it is. You're a guy. Why don't you stop mansplaining to women about how not to get groped?

Your 'evidence' f a marine is equally invalid and is the definition of statistical noise. Its just some story.

Here's something I should tell you. I have a Brazilian friend. He's 200 lbs and a purple belt in jujitsu. He's been robbed at gunpoint twice. It didn't fucking matter for him either that he was paying attention either.

Perhaps you should stop thinking self-reported data from caught criminals on a fucking youtube documentary equals knowing what is and isn't statistically valid or right.

Get through that first before you dare to fucking talk about the subject, you armchair experts gross me the fuck out.

Listen, we agree on everything here. Except the fact that it is better to be aware of your surroundings then not?

I will tell you this, having lived in Brazil myself, this advice for headphones is valid there. But not for what you'd think. It's valid there only because headphones are a an item people want to steal, not because it makes you a target because you are "unaware". Thieves and muggers usually work in teams, and for them its location location location, and ofc, shiny prey. It's why I never took my phone out in public there, but my friend who was robbed twice? Never had his phone out either. Regarding gropers and any other creeps....Anything and everything goes. You really truly have no fucking clue. Regarding the situations where someones truly motivated to jump you? I'm telling you right fucking now you won't see it coming. But you can pay extra attention in the areas you come and go most often and to switch up your routines (easy to be stalked from where you are expected to be.)

So in response its equally smart to throw up your hands and walk with ear plugs and blindfolded down the street.

Except this false dilemma is so obviously bullshit related to what the issue is here. You want to make this argument into some straw man extreme because that's literally the best you can do. You have zero argument, so you make up this black/white bullshit.

I fucking DARE you to actually find data on what the woman joggers who get raped/murdered were wearing and doing. Since you "care" so much about it. And guess what? It's not what you think.

Btw, really honestly asking, do you truly think in these black/white terms all the time?

As I am working an dont have much time. To think that it makes zero difference to be wearing headphones or not is just as black/white. Sure I could be incorrect on the degree to which it makes a difference, but logically and based off of what I've seen it does. To at least some degree. (Something about you degrading my experiences and womansplaining)

Pay attention, and know when the situation may be getting more dangerous and react to it. Not a perfect solution and it wont protect you from all thugs and creeps. But to say it is not better at all is what creates the hyperbole of being blindfolded with hands behind your back being correct. Because if situational awareness doesnt matter at all, its all the same.

Anyways, i appreciate your enthusiasm. But your stance of its going to happen no matter what i do... Doesnt help.

o think that it makes zero difference to be wearing headphones or not is just as black/white

Oh gawd no. Sorry, one of us is stating a claim that has no evidence (you) me calling you on that and saying "you're full of sh*t" is not equivalent. Saying there is an absence of evidence is not the same as saying there is evidence of absence.

Sure I could be incorrect on the degree to which it makes a difference, but logically and based off of what I've seen it does.

Tell us more. What have you seen? I wonder. . .

Something about you degrading my experiences and womansplaining

So far you've offered nothing but petty strawmans mocking my point of view, and claiming you have stats when you have none. Stop being a crybully. You're being the asshole here.

Pay attention, and know when the situation may be getting more dangerous and react to it.

Nobody's saying don't. But to state that headphones alone would've stopped her from being groped, or that it would've stopped any woman from being groped, or even worse that me suggesting that it's fine to wear headphones in broad daylight in public is equivalent to telling women to go ahead and get assaulted and not even try anything, is just flat out bullshit. You're full of it.

But to say it is not better at all is what creates the hyperbole of being blindfolded with hands behind your back being correct

Nope. You stated a claim, you provided no evidence to back it up so truly, (not even providing a single source, after saying you had statistical evidence) you are full of shit when you make this hyperventilating, scare mongering, mansplaining bullshit.

Because if situational awareness doesnt matter at all, its all the same.But your stance of its going to happen no matter what i do... Doesnt help.

More straw man bullshit. You don't even know what SA means.

Situational awareness has FAR MORE to do with picking your environments, reading body language, and recognizing exits, than sounds. Why do you think more people get hit by cars when texting and walking than anything else? Its your EYES (and your instincts) that matter not your ears. Really, I want to hear from you how many people heard their attackers or gropers before they were attacked AND after hearing them first were able to escape. You have nothing to back up your claims. Period. End. You started out so strong too, mocking me (shall I quote you back from your original comment?). Funny how that all falls apart....

I don’t understand that, but if he was a jerk, you are best rid of him in your life. On the other hand, if he had been a good friend for many years and just said one thing wrong on one day, I would hate to lose a true friend because of that. But only you are in the best position to judge looking back on it.

Never let someone on Reddit tell you how to act or feel, though they can definitely offer comfort and advice, your life is always best lived and decided on by yourself.

No. I’m not. Those were his exact words. “If you wear headphones in public you deserve to be raped, if anything happens to you while wearing headphones it’s your fault of your own & you deserved it. Don’t complain or bitch when something bad happens because you brought it upon yourself”

Which is a completely different line of reasoning than "she was dressed sexy, so she wanted to have sex with me".

Really it's the equivalent of saying "if you go waving your money around in public, you deserve to have it stolen" -- it's not a literal statement on merit. It seems reasonable to infer that "deserve" in this case means less "that ought to happen" and more "it would be hard to feel sympathy given the risks they're taking".

Still an asinine thing to say, but if you think that this guy is recommending rape as a punishment for wearing headphones, you're probably misunderstanding.