Town Square

thoughts on Gov Romney's comments on 47% of THOSE people

Original post made
by a single thoughful question, Downtown North,
on Sep 18, 2012

Gov Romney is caught on tape saying:

- "There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you - name - it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what'These are people who pay no income tax."

- His "job is is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."

Among Mitt Romney's 47% he claims he does not worry about?

- all US active duty troops in combat zones (do not pay federal income taxes)

- 2/3rd of those 47% DO PAY other federal taxes, as well as state and local taxes

- More than half are elderly

- Over one-third are nonelderly with income under $20,000

- Only about 1 in 20 is nonelderly with income over $20,000

In the 47% of people Mitt claims to not care about:
- in 2011, 7,000 millionaires paid no income tax Web Link

- half a million families making more than $100,000, also paid no income tax.

- of the 400 wealthiest American taxpayers in 2009, six paid no income tax

- in 2011, about 7,000 taxpayers with income over $1 million paid no income taxes.

My thoughtful comment follows...

- Given Gov Romney's recorded comments about those 47 percent who do not pay federal income tax

- given the prevalence of incredibly wealthy citizens among those who do not pay income tax

- given that Gov Romney is running for the office of tax policy writer-in-chief

- given that Mitt Romney's father released 12 years of tax returns in 1968, as has every President since

- given that Mitt Romney gave John McCain 23 years of tax returns in 2008

- given that Mitt Romney REQUIRED ten years of tax returns from his VP candidate, Paul Ryan

****** Shouldn't Gov Romney be transparent with the American people and release his tax returns for the last ten years? *******

Editor, I hope that meets your definition of a thoughtful post.

I would post links to every fact above, but there is a limits to the number of links that can be added to these posts.

Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Sep 18, 2012 at 11:12 am

Given that the Occupy Movement claims to represent 99% of American people, Mitt would have been more accurate by stating that 99% will vote for Obama (and to write them off). However, since about half of the Americans tell pollsters they will vote for Mitt, this must mean that Occupy does not represent 99%.

Mitt should stand his ground, and grab the moment, since he now has the attention of the 47% (at least). The way off federal govenment dependence, for many, many people is a JOB. Mitt can win this argument.

The tipping point between makers and takers is at hand. The takers can simply continue to vote in socialists, like in Europe. Greece as a model, anyone?

Posted by Staples working moochers
a resident of Midtown
on Sep 18, 2012 at 11:19 am

Garys definition of "takers" is highlighted by the original poster:

1. active duty service men and women are takers and moochers
2. those who worked hard and are part of Medicare and Social Security are takers and moochers
3. the millionaires who pay little or no taxes are takers and moochers

Gary thinks that of the 47%, half of whom are over 65, his way is for those elderly old moochers is to get a job!

How about Romney's success story? Staples employees don't pay federal income taxes because they don't make enough from Staples to pay income taxes!

So Gary must want us to boycott Mitt's success story, Staples, until they pay enough for the working poor to reach the minimum level of income tax!!!

Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Sep 18, 2012 at 11:24 am

>Thanks, Gary, for clarifying!

Absoutely everyone should pay federal income tax, if they have income. It can be a lower rate, perhaps, but they MUST pay something. That way, they will be more cautious, when the socialists tell them it is all for free. Greece failed to do this.

Posted by Progressive taxes
a resident of Los Altos
on Sep 18, 2012 at 11:35 am

Americans have long supported a progressive tax system, including tax credits for the working poor to encourage participation. The working poor pay federal payroll taxes along with state and local taxes. Gary wants a flat tax so the Romney's of the world pay less and the working poor pay more. That is Gary's idea of "fair". So much for encouraging Americans to get a job, or as Gary calls it: a "way off federal govenment dependence".

Now Rmoney needs to clarify that he has paid taxes for the last ten years and at what rate. We know he paid 13% on 40 million in income last year, with tax shelters in the Cayman Islands and Swiss bank accounts.

What else are you hiding Mitt? Where you part of the 2009 IRS tax amnesty for secret Swiss bank accounts? Are you a maker, or a taker?

Posted by Progressive taxes
a resident of Los Altos
on Sep 18, 2012 at 12:09 pm

Greece -- the fringe right wing talking point to distract from Mitt Romney and his attitudes about working Americans.

Here's the difference between Greece and America (obviously, one difference among many!)

Investors the world over are lined up to lend money to the United Sates at historically low interest rates, essentially giving the US their money to hold for safe keeping. Counting in the very low rate of inflation, these investors are essentially giving America money at a negative return for our safekeeping. There is almost no way that Greece and America belong in the same literate, thoughtful economic conversation. Unless you want the conversation to be about fear-mongering.

ie.. Gary's forte. It's all the GOP had to fight against Obama. And now, with Romney's true feelings about Americans and 'those' people coming out in his 1% fundraisers, the race is over and done anyway.

Rack 'em, stack 'em and pack 'em. This election is done. Obama was reelected after Clinton's speech, anyway. All Romney's continued efforts will do is insure the Senate remains blue and strengthens the chances that Nancy Pelosi will be Speaker.

Republicans: job well done! Picking Romney was truly snatching defeat from the jaws of victory! His pick will rank up there with choosing Sharon Angle to beat a hopelessly weak Harry Reid in 2010.

Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Sep 18, 2012 at 12:21 pm

"Egan-Jones contends that QE3 will not achieve what it is intended to do  raise the real GDP  but will instead reduce the value of the dollar."

Egan-Jones and most other credit rating agencies are downgrading the American economy. Greece IS the model, because the confidence in the American dollar is eroding. Socialism has failed, yet Obama continues down that path.

Posted by Progressive taxes
a resident of Los Altos
on Sep 18, 2012 at 12:40 pm

Again, does Gary open up an economic thread to argue his fallacy that Greece is the model for the strongest economy on earth? Nope, Gary wants to post here to deflect from Mitt Romney saying things like:

******* given Gov Romney's recorded comments about those 47 percent who do not pay federal income tax; given the prevalence of incredibly wealthy citizens among those who do not pay income tax; given that Gov Romney is running for the office of tax policy writer-in-chief; given that Mitt Romney's father released 12 years of tax returns in 1968, as has every President since; given that Mitt Romney gave John McCain 23 years of tax returns in 2008; given that Mitt Romney REQUIRED ten years of tax returns from his VP candidate, Paul Ryan.....

****** Shouldn't Gov Romney be transparent with the American people and release his tax returns for the last ten years?

Great question! My answer? Mitt can't, because if Mitt released his taxes, Democrats would retake the House with room to spare. They already have a better than 50/50 chance of retaining the senate

Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Sep 18, 2012 at 1:34 pm

>Again, does Gary open up an economic thread to argue his fallacy that Greece is the model for the strongest economy on earth? Nope, Gary wants to post here to deflect from Mitt Romney saying things like...

I certainly do not want Mitt to deflect away from his basic message that America is heading towards the same fate as socialist Europe. Greece is the anchor on Europe, but the anchor chain includes Italy and Spain and Portugal (and more to follow).

This election is fundamental, because it offers a difference in models: Redistribution/socialist (Obama) vs. free market aspirations and job creation (Mitt). Romney's remarks were spot on, in the context that he made them...they still are! He needs to own them, and not soften them.

Greece is not where we need to be heading. Neither is European socialism.

Politfact rating - TRUE: "Since 1961, for 52 years now, the Republicans have held the White House 28 years, the Democrats 24," Clinton said. "In those 52 years, our private economy has produced 66 million private-sector jobs. So what's the jobs score? Republicans 24 million, Democrats 42 (million)."

Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Sep 18, 2012 at 2:26 pm

I have never, since I grew a brain, understood the mocking of those who warned about the dangers of socialism (inclding reds, and the European drip-drip model). How many tens of millions need to be murdered, or pushed into poverty, to prove the failure of the socialist model?

Mitt spoke the truth, perhaps despite himself, and it should be fully exploited by him.

Going to Greece is no longer a long-dreamed-of vacation...it is a trip to hell, figuratively speaking. Obama will take us to Greece; Romney will pull us back.

So we pay a quarter more for a t-shirt from Wlamart, a dime more for a ream of paper from Staples, a nickel more for a chicken leg. Takes millions of working pooor out of poverty and is a boom for all Americans as the economy explodes.

Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Sep 18, 2012 at 6:14 pm

>Most are either the retired or the working poor

They still should be paying income tax, if they are getting an income. Absolutely nobody should get out of paying income tax, if they have an income. Everybody needs to know that there is no free lunch, otherwise we will all go down the road of Greece. Obama wants us to feel that redistribution is a solution. Socialism is never a solution, it is a prescription for disaster, especially for the relatively poor. Ask the Greek citizens.

Posted by pants on fire
a resident of Adobe-Meadow
on Sep 18, 2012 at 6:36 pm

Romney's numbers are wildly misleading. Most of Romney's "47%" do pay Federal payroll taxes. Most of the people who pay neither payroll nor income taxes are the elderly who are living off of their savings or Social Security.

Is Romney talking about killing Social Security? If that is what he really meant, he should just come out and say it explicitly instead of using confusing right-wing code words.

Of course, some people who pay no taxes use hedge funds like Bain to hide all their income from the IRS.

Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Sep 18, 2012 at 7:40 pm

>Gary -if you feel that they should be paying, but they aren't, what are you doing to make that happen?

Not much, really. How could I, other than making the argument that they should? Federal income tax rules are written by Congress, not me. The current rules have provided a makers vs takers paradigm...something that should never exist. Most takers should also be makers. Then they will pause, before they vote for even more taxes on themselves.

Posted by Outside Observer
a resident of another community
on Sep 18, 2012 at 7:57 pm

The fix is to pro-rate the strength of your vote in Federal elections by the percentage of federal income tax you pay.

Mitt can have his vote at his 15 percent tax rate: 1X.15

I, in the shrinking yet paying middle class will have mine at 42 percent: 1X.42

Those who pay no federal income tax: 1X 0

This will go a long way to mitigate the parasites on both ends of the spectrum. The greedy rich who have paid/manipulated the tax structure to their benefit, and the welfare state, which is just another manifestation of greed.

Posted by Aquamarine
a resident of Stanford
on Sep 18, 2012 at 8:30 pm

Many of those takers were makers - but now they're retired. They'll -make- haste to the polls and cast their vote, likely remembering his castigation against them. Where are Mitt's tax returns??????????

Posted by pants on fire
a resident of Adobe-Meadow
on Sep 18, 2012 at 8:31 pm

Sharon - is that the story that Fox News is going with? Carter said he didn't find out about the video until a month ago. Over a week, he reached out to the Republican who made the film (paid for a $50K fundraiser dinner with Romney) and got the person to release it to a magazine. The magazine then took 3 more weeks of research and vetting to make sure it wasn't a Republican booby trap (not unlikely).

The rest makes absolutely no sense when you realize that Mitt is whining about the elderly on Social Security and low paid workers like military service members.

Posted by Gary has patience
a resident of Greater Miranda
on Sep 18, 2012 at 10:39 pm

Gary: You have a lot of patience. Bottom line: We are extremely close to having more who don't pay fed taxes than those who do. Anyone not blinded by hate knows that Romney, nor any of us, begrudge those who worked their whole lives and are now not making the taxable income as retired folks. Ok. Everyone knows we are talking about those who pay nothing in fed taxes, and yet GET redistributed money to them from those who do.

Bottom line: almost 50 million/300 million of us on EBT/Food Stamps. Almost a 50% increase in the last 4 years. 1/6 of us living below the poverty line. Longest recession since the Depression.

Why?

Think, folks, think. We had an equally bad economy in 1980, by this point in Reagan's Admin we had 1 million new jobs per month. We had an economy in spiral down in 2002 post 9/11, but 2005 we had under 5% unemployment and the most tax revenue EVER in our history..Why?

Let the economy loose, guys..let us grow and put more of us into the "taxpayer" category, not the "tax taker" category.

Try to see the adult level big picture, ( ie the forest), not the tree here or there.

Posted by Laurie
a resident of Green Acres
on Sep 19, 2012 at 12:05 am

@patience spews lies about the depth of recessions, will not substantiate his/her wild claims

@sharon has so many facts wrong it's ridiculous. Anyone can see the story was broken by Mother Jones, not the NYT. Next time, Sharon, try reading the original post at the top of the page!

@gary also has a funny story: of the 47% who DO NOT pay income tax, of which half are elderly, he says "And they (the retired) don't want to be ecessively taxed for the non-maker takers" Duh! They aren't paying income taxes, Gary! How can they be "ecessively taxed" can they be when half of the 47% are not paying income taxes?!?!?

That takes the cake! Gary defeats himself. Beautiful!

The classic is that all the above three don't realize that Mitt Romney pays next to nothing in income taxes! He is an honorary member of the 47%!!!

He has a couple hundred grand in speaking fees he pays income taxes on and pays no income tax on the FORTY MILLION DOLLARS in other income! Some capital gains tax, yes. Much of it is in hedge fund "carried interest" loophole tax rates. Much is hidden in Swiss bank accounts and the Cayman Islands.

Posted by Gary
a resident of Downtown North
on Sep 19, 2012 at 7:17 am

The vast majority of retired people have income from a combination of social security, pensions, investments. All people with any income should pay federal income taxes. This would be the best safeguard against government efforts to impose confiscatory taxes.

Posted by Gary has patience
a resident of Greater Miranda
on Sep 19, 2012 at 7:28 am

Gary: I agree. If you have skin in the game, even $1/week, you are more likely to think twice before voting, and you recover some dignity of "contribution". Even those on welfare/aid to dependent children/food stamps should see something leaving called "Federal Tax" from their checks, to feel the dignity of contributing even $1/week to the country from their "checks'.

I am reading an amazing book by a Belgium explorer of the 40s and 50s in Africa.I almost fell out of my chair when I read the following interchange with what the author calls a "Pygmy". Pygmys were not taxed, were not held to the same standards of crime and punishment, and were not allowed IDs. The pygmy in the book tells the Belgian that he WANTS to be taxed and IDd. Why? ( and no, this isn't racist, this making a statement from a conversation in the 50s reported by the author)...BTW, Negroes are a different race from pygmies, and ruled the roost in this guy's area.

" If we steal potatoes or bananas from a Negro's plantation, nobody bothers to punish us. They don't put a chimpanzee in jail when HE takes a piece of fruit. People say we are monkeys becasue we have no (ID) books and no taxes. Maybe, if we had them, we could be men.".

I leave this quote for your thoughtful consideration about the different paths this nation can take...are we all "men" ( adults) or are we not "men" ( monkeys to be patted on the head, farmed, hunted, whatever). I choose adulthood.

When we are spending $60,000 per family in poverty ( but each family doesn't see that much, the government being sure to keep much of it for its own employees before distributing our money around), there is something very wrong. There is something very wrong when the average family in poverty has more spent on it than the average family earns.

THIS is what has struck a nerve with all of us who are voting for Romney and Ryan. It will take over 20 years, but at least they have a plan to begin to turn this Titanic away from bankruptcy. Unlike having no plan, no budget, no economic sense, and no idea of what drives human nature.