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Its a sad and tragic thing that someone who has been proclaimed by the liberal media as the next Billy Graham is actually a false prophet with homosexual issues. The sad part is that deliverance is available to anyone who wants it. The tragic part is the hoax being perpetrated on millions of people in the church by Bishop TD Jakes.

New information alleges that Jakes is not just a false prophet who is repositioning himself as a defender of gay christian theology, but one who has attempted to draw other men into homosexual conduct with him.

In this audio (courtesy of Faith and Reason), Jakes can be heard giving credibility to the astonishing fallacy that Ruth and Naomi had a lesbian relationship. Why is TD Jakes advocating two of the favorite lies of the gay christian movement?

“Ruth turns to Naomi and says “I shall not leave thee.” She makes her statement to this woman…that sounds somewhat, somewhere in between poetry, intimacy, and borders on lesbianism. People don’t even know how to explain what Ruth said to Naomi. It makes them uncomfortable. They’re afraid to talk about it. They don’t want to teach on it. Same thing with David and Jonathan…where there were same-sex relationships getting too close, people don’t even know what to say.” (our italics)

Bishop Jakes may be unaware and his church may be ignorant of the matter, but we have talked about it and we are not afraid. But talking about what Ruth said to Naomi is one thing. Suggesting what Ruth said “borders on lesbianism” reveals the darkness in his own heart. This doesn’t border on lesbiansm, it borders on heresy! But if you think that Bishop Jakes is just engaging our minds in the usual “deep” way he’s known for, think again. His own personal issues with homosexuality color his theology. And its not good.

Perhaps that’s “too much light” coming from Bishop Jakes. That’s what one man says Jakes told him after he rejected Jakes’ numerous sexual propositions. Eventually, Richard Youngblood became the subject of a vendetta orchestrated by TD Jakes causing him to lose his marriage and family.

Youngblood, who knew and worked with Bishop Jakes since he first came into Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies (HGAAA), recently wrote that Jakes is the type of man characterized in Jude 4 as one who “crept into the church unawares”. Youngblood’s story of Jakes’ sexual pursuit of him is nothing less than stunning.

While Bishop Jakes was not successful in his attempt to have sex with me, he did everything he could to try to convince me. After seeing that I would not fall for his tactic, he said something to me that to this day still reverberates in my ear…”sometimes to much light hurts the eyes.” At first I had no idea what he meant. Then later understood that he was saying to me that he had revealed too much of himself to me. DUH!!! What an understatement from such an articulate man. This is where my personal warfare began. Questions began to surface in my head like…”what kind of sign was I giving off that made him think he could approach me?” Then the warfare took on a feeling that I felt a need to prove my manhood. I began to have sex with as many women as would allow me to satisfy my lust to prove my manhood. All the while protecting his”too much light.” The saddest part to this warfare is that because of the information that I had, Bishop was afraid that I would use it against him so he began to forecast me as a trouble maker and a liar. All of the mutual friend [sic] that we had received phone calls and were told not to invite me to speak at their events. Obviously because of his reputation, he was believed and I was not. He even sowed seed [sic] in my home between my wife and I by telling her that I was no longer welcomed to the church but that she could continue coming. That marriage eventually ended in divorce.”

There will be those, who will without the slightest hesitation, defend the men they have made idols. We have much evidence of that right here on this site.

A threat?

When we first exposed the connection between Bishops Jakes and Taylor, we were sent a letter (click thumbnail for larger view) claiming the post was “libelous and grossly inaccurate”. Sources later told GCM Watch Taylor was thrown under the bus by Watkins and Jakes in order to cover their own involvement. Bishop Andrew Merritt left the organization after he became aware that HGAAA leadership was complicit and condoning of homosexual activity.

In an age where the church languishes under a laodicean spirit, nothing is offensive to God. All are to be celebrated and tolerated because, they say, God is all about love. But beware false prophets who pervert the word of the Lord for their own gain. Johnathan Edwards preached in 1741 that when God rises up, no man can prevent him from exacting judgment upon those who do wickedness.

There is no want of power in God to cast wicked men into hell at any moment. Men’s hands cannot be strong when God rises up. The strongest have no power to resist him, nor can any deliver out of his hands.-He is not only able to cast wicked men into hell, but he can most easily do it. Sometimes an earthly prince meets with a great deal of difficulty to subdue a rebel, who has found means to fortify himself, and has made himself strong by the numbers of his followers. But it is not so with God. There is no fortress that is any defence from the power of God. Though hand join in hand, and vast multitudes of God’s enemies combine and associate themselves, they are easily broken in pieces. They are as great heaps of light chaff before the whirlwind; or large quantities of dry stubble before devouring flames. We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth; so it is easy for us to cut or singe a slender thread that any thing hangs by: thus easy is it for God, when he pleases, to cast his enemies down to hell. What are we, that we should think to stand before him, at whose rebuke the earth trembles, and before whom the rocks are thrown down.”

We would do well to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God now before he has to break in peices the brazen pride of the church. Even now, in what seems to be the apex of his power and influence, TD Jakes should repent and be converted lest the Lord come and remove his candlestick. Those who have followed this man, should repent and ask God to give them a clean heart and a right spirit. Pastors who are in “covenant” with this man should repent and remove themselves from this unholy relationship built on the lust for prestige, money and influence*. And if you are currently in a sexual relationship with any bishop, pastor, gospel artist or church leader repent and remove yourself from it before God opens the door of discipline on you.

* According to the PHIPA fellowship disclaimer, even though you apply and become part of the PHIPA, TD Jakes does not endorse you or even encourage attendance at your church. Neither are you legally affiliated with TD Jakes or any of his subsidary ministries. But in order to be a member of the PHIPA, you must send in MONTHLY “tithes and offerings”. In plain language, you are simply a $$ sign to TD Jakes. Although he offers you vague, religious sounding platitudes look at the stark specificities of what he requires you to do for him. That’s his definition of “covenant”.

The season of God’s wrath is upon us because of our willful disobedience and gross immorality. There will be no judgment you say? Examples in the Old Testament portray a sharp rise in widespread sexual sin and idolatry before a harsh and swift judgment from God.

Genesis 19 – God destroys Sodom and the cities of the plains for its wickedness namely unrepentant pride in its sexual sins and human injustices.

Numbers 25 – God send a plague of deadly sexual disease among Isreal after the men of Isreal give themselves over to sexual pleasure with Moabite women. The plague destroys 24,000 men and would have killed many more were it not for the zealous action of Phineas.

Judges 19,20 – After homosexuals in the tribe of Benjamin commit rape and murder, then reject the other 11 tribes’ appeal to repent, civil war erupts plunging Isreal into a bloodbath. Only 1000 of the 25,000 men in Benjamin are left alive. This, the writer of Judges somberly observes, is because “every man did what was right in his own eyes”.

1 Kings 14, 24, 15:12 – Jeroboam, known as one of Isreal;s most wicked kings set in motion events that led to the destruction of the Northern Kingdom. A benchmark of his reign was the tolerance of idolatry and homosexuality.

Lest we dismiss such things as OT law, the Apostle Paul wrote “Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TOPLAY.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come” (1 Cor 10:6-11). Change will not come by physically killing other people, only by repentance and submission to the will of God.

TD Jakes is not alone in leading people astray. There are religious pied pipers you revere and blindly follow, while rejecting the true knowledge of God. Sadly, if you do not repent and turn away, you will be destroyed because you reject that which can save you.

Addendum, Sept 1, 2008: Some people have questioned the context and time of the comments given by TD Jakes cited above. Independent Conservative located the text on the Potter’s House website which says it is an excerpt from a sermon entitled “Nothing Just Happens”. According to the site, the message was preached at a 2001 Woman Thou Art Loosed Conference.

Cryptic or prophetic?

If the website is correct, it adds an even more egregious dimension to Bishop Jakes’ remarks. To wit: this type or errant ideology should have been challenged seven years ago. But in the glaze of popularity people were willing to overlook it as “deep” when it was in all actuality a false seed sown into the minds of vunerable women.

The sermon seems to focus on Jakes’ idea that nothing is by chance. That God indeed orchestrates the events of our lives and is in complete control. Given that this particular part of the message went virtually unnoticed for seven years, we are willing to agree that the message is prophetic in that God brought it to the forefront according to His divine plan.

There in no context nor remote possiblity that the two women had any type of lesbian relationship or simular feelings for one another. The text does not suggest it nor imply it. Bishop Jakes created that supposition out of thin air. It was an outrage then and it is a fresh outrage now. Perhaps if Bishop Jakes had been publicly challegened on this type of thinking who knows whether he would have aired numerous other false or questionable teachings about homosexuality.

1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. 8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more, 11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, 12 so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Perhaps you did not notice before, but maybe reading more of the passages surrounding the verse you cited might help you. We are not to promote, condone or be involved in sexual immorality. Jakes sees it, as based on the testimony of Richard Youngblood, as some sort of “light”. The sermon of Jakes only exposes a little of what Jakes is calling “light” and plenty of other actions and statements by TD Jakes speak to this “light” Jakes seems to embrace. Just see the many other links provided in the post. That “light” has a source that appears as an “angel of light” but is really explained in 2 Corinthians 11:14.

TD Jakes is false in so many ways and yet another appears to be coming to the surface.

Now when verse I Thessalonians 4:11 speaks of keeping to ourselves, it’s not addressed to an individual, but a church as a whole in how they as a body are to do for themselves, so that they are not looking to outsiders to meet their needs. Actually I Thessalonians 4:11 speaks against TD Jakes always seeking to get attention AND MONEY from outsiders for his many projects. Attention that does not involve sharing the TRUE gospel, but rather attention for himself. I Thessalonians 4:11 is not about knowing a claimed church leader is living outside of 1 Timothy 3 and sweeping it under the rug. Have you not read 1 Timothy 5:19-21? Now one witness has spoken and don’t be shocked that more witnesses could speak up too. Even without this, Jakes is so full of false doctrine and covetousness, that he’s a 1 Corinthians 5:11 candidate if ever there was one.

God did not have Paul tell the church to stay quiet about scandals that many ALREADY KNOW, but rather judge and remove evil from the church, 1 Corinthians 5:12-13.

“Sin places the heavy burden on people, not a blog post about sin.” Who’s opinion is that? That’s not biblical. BUT i’m not here to argue scripture.

All I’m trying to say is…shall we send Jakes a letter and tell him to read this blog and get it right? Or shall we just blogg the issue to death with no action??

Faith without works is dead…..(hopefully this scripture is in context)

The problem i have with ‘church folk’ is that we have everything to say about this issue, but yet, without solution. without solid, practical, realistic solution (i should say).

Even if Jakes has repented and submitted himself to God…would he announce it to you? How would you know?

What’s the date on that sermon? is it possible that since then, the man has learned from his errors and got it right?

and i’m interested to know…how long did it take for you to come out of the gay lifestyle after repenting and submitting to God? Was it automatic for you?

GCMW: Jesse, I would really hate to restrict your posting, but this post is not about me. If you want to ask questions about me, use the email or open forum. They may or may not be answered pursuant to you identifying yourself and your reasons for wanting to know when you can buy the book and find out much more. Check the comments policy.

Now that clip is too short for me to comment on Jakes’ sermon in context, although I should point out that Jakes has already been criticized for that same sermon in many corners, including Tony Alamo, the Messianic Jew who started the Jesus movement.

But the clip is long enough for me to say this: TD JAKES IS A DIRTY STINKING FILTHY LIAR. We KNOW the context of Ruth telling Naomi “I will not leave you.” She was a DAUGHTER IN LAW taking care of her MOTHER IN LAW. Haven’t you folks ever heard of a DAUGHTER IN LAW taking care of her MOTHER IN LAW before? Look, in times past, in generations past, in basically moral cultures, the idea of a sexual relationship being implied or inferred by a daughter in law’s promise to take care of her mother in law after the son/husband DIES is A CLEAR INDICATION OF A SICK PERVERTED TWISTED MIND.

And then there is the issue of hermeneutics. You defender of a sick twisted pervert liar, which makes you a sick twisted pervert liar by extension and association (and yes this is a personal attack which you should take personally because this is your own personal sin against the Word of the Living God for which you will be called into account) the Bible is not a cryptogram. It was written by people living in a particular time and culture so that other people in their particular social location would understand. Since homosexuality was a sin PUNISHABLE BY DEATH in the Jewish culture that produced Ruth, there is NO WAY that the writer of this book would have written it in a way that would have concealed the true nature of their relationship to people living in that day and time. It is only in our day and time of massive pervasive sexual immorality, a climate created by political activists and a mass media, that the idea of even ALLEGING that any and every relationship has sexual undertones WOULD EVEN BE ENTERTAINED.

This is another reason why it is idiotic: NAOMI’S OTHER DAUGHTER IN LAW! When Naomi told her other daughter in law to leave, because Naomi had TWO SONS and THEY BOTH DIED and BOTH HER DAUGHTERS IN LAW WERE LEFT WITH HER, THE OTHER DAUGHTER IN LAW SAID THE SAME THING! AND GUESS WHAT? THE OTHER DAUGHTER IN LAW, ORPAH, KISSED HER MOTHER IN LAW GOODBYE! DID YOU READ THAT, YOU DEMENTED PERVERT? ORPAH KISSED HER! SO ACCORDING TO THE NOTION PRODUCED BY YOUR SAME TWISTED REPROBATE MIND THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN OVER TO UNNATURAL THOUGHTS AND INCLINATIONS, THAT MEANS THAT ORPAH AND NAOMI WERE LOVERS TOO! IT WAS A THREESOME!

And why not? That is precisely what the media portrays. Hollywood celebrities have long been openly homosexual and bisexual, and not only movies but even broadcast television now routinely depicts homosexuality and bisexuality. Movies have been depicting lesbian sex scenes for so long that it has gotten routine, and even starlets looking for fame and attention going out and kissing other women in public is oh so YESTERDAY like when Britney and Madonna did it. So of course, in our perverse modern unnatural culture, it is easy to imagine anyone copulating with anyone else.

BUT OUR CULTURE IS NOT THE CULTURE THAT PRODUCED THE BIBLE! IN THE CULTURE THAT PRODUCED THE BIBLE, FOR A WOMAN TO HAVE A LESBIAN RELATIONSHIP WITH HER DAUGHTERS IN LAW (AGAIN, YOU CANNOT GIVE THIS RIDICULOUS THEORY THE TIME OF DAY IF YOU LEAVE OUT ORPAH, THE ONLY ONE WHO KISSED NAOMI) WOULD HAVE BEEN UNTHINKABLE! THE WRITER OF RUTH DID NOT LEAVE HIDDEN CLUES FOR SOME CULTURE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE EARTH THREE THOUSAND YEARS LATER IN A TIME AND PLACE MORE “TOLERANT” AND “PROGRESSIVE” TO FIND IT! IF THE WRITER OF RUTH WANTED THE PEOPLE OF HIS DAY AND TIME TO KNOW THAT RUTH, NAOMI, AND ORPAH WERE A THREESOME AND THAT NAOMI ENCOURAGED RUTH TO BREAK UP THEIR THREESOME AND GO OFF AND BE HAPPY TOGETHER (Ruth 1:15) IT WOULD HAVE SAID SO! IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DIRECT, OR IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A EUPHEMISM COMMONLY KNOWN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE TIME AND DAY SIMILAR TO EUPHEMISMS USED ELSEWHERE IN THE BIBLE FOR THIS CONDUCT, BUT IT WOULD HAVE SAID IT! SINCE THE NARRATIVE NEITHER SAYS OR IMPLIES (IN THE MINDS OF A PERSON WITH A NATURAL CIVILIZED MIND) THE GROTESQUE NOTION OF A WOMAN CARRYING ON A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TWO DAUGHTERS IN LAWS, THE WIVES OF HER DEAD SONS, NO ONE EXCEPT A SINNER WITH THE MIND OF A SINNER SEEKING TO USE THE BIBLE TO JUSTIFY OR PROMOTE THEIR OWN SIN WOULD EVEN CONSIDER SUCH A THING, LET ALONE PREACH OR DEFEND IT!

Now reprobate, this describes not only TD Jakes, liar on scripture, but it also describes you, defender of this liar against the Word of the LIVING GOD.

you would understand why Jakes very much fills the footsteps of Billy Graham, who A) did a lot more to cause Protestants to lie down with the great harlot of Rome than any other American possibly could have and B) in his last major statement to the media claimed to be unsure that Jesus Christ was the only way to salvation.

I don’t think that little video clip was the thrust of this post, in fact I know it was not, but I guess for the sake of obfuscation an attempt to cover for Jakes is being performed by harping about it.

The full text that particular “sermon” is on Jake’s own web site. Jakes basically tossed out the suggestion of lesbianism, which no pastor should do for that scripture. Jakes talked about that and David and Jonathan, then tried to clean up the suggestion about Naomi and Ruth. But it shows something messed up in his head to even “go there”. He even tries to basically applaud himself, by saying others don’t like to address the scripture, but he did!

Bottom line here is, that more of the witnesses need to speak up regarding what TD Jakes has been trying to do with men. And then we’ll take this from there.

“seeing as how you don’t know me or anything about me and quite clearly from this post…you could not know the God that I serve.”

I know that you said this.

“Taking only a portion of a wonderful sermon by Jakes and scrutinizing it to Iink him to the gay theology?”

You convicted yourself with your own words when you called a sermon that lied against the Word of the Living God “wonderful.” That proves that “You called me a sick twisted pervert liar by extension and association.” If that does not, what does? Supporting the wrong political candidate? Rooting for the wrong football team? Not liking the movies “E.T.”, “Titanic”, or “Batman Returns”? If supporting and defending those who lie against the Word of the Living God by calling their apostasies, blasphemies, and heresies “wonderful” is not the sign of a sick perverted twisted mind, then what is? Not liking neopolitan ice cream?

And of course, you did not respond to any of the substance of my post that proved the idiocy of Jakes’ lie:

THERE IS NO WAY TO CLAIM THAT THERE WAS A LESBIAN RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN NAOMI AND RUTH WITHOUT INCLUDING ORPAH IN THE RELATIONSHIP TOO BECAUSE ORPAH IS THE ONLY ONE THAT THE BIBLE NARRATIVE DEPICTS AS KISSING NAOMI. Now I mentioned the other ways that Jakes is obviously LYING but that is the biggest one.

So Geesh, take your stand. Did “She makes her statement to this woman…that sounds somewhat, somewhere in between poetry, intimacy, and borders on lesbianism.” also apply to Orpah? Was there a three way lesbian relationship triangle between Ruth, Naomi, and Orpah?

“I will not leave you” is an intimate deep portrayal of homoerotic lust? Only to a sick mind. When you were a small child, did you ever get separated from your mother at school or church or in a public place and started to cry, and your mother picked you up and kissed your cheek and said “Don’t worry sweetie, mommy loves you and won’t forget you and leave you behind” … was that statement by your mother something that sounded somewhat, somewhere in between poetry and intimacy AND BORDERS ON INCEST? I mean A) your mother kissed you. B) She called you sweetie, honey, baby, or something similar. C) She picked you up, hugged you, and embraced you, and probably later that day gave you a bath. That’s right, your mother not only saw you naked, but touched your private areas! And then she said she would never leave you! Clearly a sign of a devoted relationship!

So lay your cards on the table! Tell the truth! Was there an incest relationship between you and your mother? By the same standard that Jakes is using, there was, and you are defending the Jakes standard. Pervert.

The evidence presented here is clear.
However, your questions are bordering on trivial and are a distraction from the post. This is your final warning to either restrict your comments to the post at hand or answer questions presented to you about the post at hand.

If you want to know a few things that came out of the mouth of Jesus, the Bible or God you canread this and stop being “offended” because you are called on defending a false prophet while intentionally ignoring the evidence presented.

In restricting my comments to the post, I’d like to say that I am in disagreement that Bishop TD Jakes is a false prophet.

GCMW: Based on the clear evidence presented here and elsewhere, biblically speaking he is.

In the original post where it is stated “TD Jakes should repent and be converted lest the Lord come and remove his candlestick. ”

I would like to ask…is there anyone on this blog that can tell me whether or not TD Jakes has repented and been converted since the time of his error?

GCMW: That’s for Bishop Jakes to answer. We’d be happy to post his reply to the information presented in this post.

Concerning the ‘clear’ evidence presented in this post….has there been enough research to know whether the accuser is credible or not?

GCMW: Yes, as far as we are concerned there has.

How hard would it be for me to send a fake email that states that TD Jakes offered me sex and then destroyed my marriage because of it?

GCMW: That’s debateable depending on your character.

While I was reading my bible, I came across this scripture in I Timothy 5…

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
If Jakes is proven to be sinning and it has been brought up by 2 or 3 witnesses…then I will be more than happy to agree with you and the post.

GCMW: No one is asking you to agree with this post. Our goal is to agree with God’s word.

Man oh man….this is really disappointing….I used to kind of like T.D. Jakes and enjoyed his sermons but the one thing that always concerned me was his ties to oneness pentacostalism which is heresy if not blasphemy…

And now all this other stuff has been coming out…this is very sad indeed…also his extravagant lifestyle really is to much…the money this man has because of the gospel kinda concerns me….

Very sad…and Brother Foster…take care…standing up for the truth is a dangerous and tough business in these increasinly evil days…..

We need to be praying for you and for T.D. Jakes that he will accept correction and come back to the True Path of Christ!

Pastor Foster,
I know you will get alot of negative post about this one, but in a high profile minister this is common.

It’s sad to here this, but I think of what Satan has tried thru out history in that he has attemped to destroy the genealogy of Chirst. In the seed of Ismael, In Absalom the seed of David, Even tempting Christ at the mount and his attemps continue. Ruth is in the house of David which Jesus the Messiah is to come from.
To discredit Ruth is a attemp to discredit Christ.

To read what Ruth said,“borders on lesbianism” It would seem that whom ever would read it this way has this in their heart. For this is heresy.

Jakes should have taken [edited] years ago when he first sat down at the king’s filthy table to eat and partake with him. Be wary of the man that everyone speaks well of. Jakes is corrupted I knew that back in the nineties. Some things God automaticaly shows you and Jakes was one who I was shown that he will take anything offered to him to get what he wants. In other words, It’s okay for someone else to be in charge as long as you get what you want.

This is so much bigger than Jakes. In fact Job touched on some important points regarding this movement in general which goes beyond Jakes. We shouldn’t be surprised by this happening in the Church. For example we had Haggert, Catholic Priests, and now Jakes. The spectrum is pretty well covered in Christendom. That being said look at all the recent politicians that have been caught recently involved in the same things. Also, as Job pointed out look at all the celebrities engaging in this behavior openly and being promoted on magazine racks. And sadly this is what MANY of our young people are engaging in today. 4% of the population being homosexual today would be a blessing. As a Gen Xer too many young people 30ish and lower are on the down low, openly gay, bisexual, or bi curious. In essence the homosexual movement has sufficiently spread throughout our society.

As I stated this is beyond Jakes in the grand scheme of things. As we all know it will be as in the days of Noah prior to the Lords return. Also, it will be similar to the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. In essence we are witnessing a movement that has penetrated every facet of our society including THE CHURCH, government, schools, media, and television.

Continue to hold fast to the truth and pray. God will not be mocked. His patience however will soon be up and his righteous judgement will come upon this earth.

I will say this. In my early years after receiving Christ, all I used to do was watch and listen to Jakes. For me at that time, he presented a great message that helped me to better understand what had just occured in my life and who I was as a new Man of God. However, as I read the Bible more for myself and studied the Word of God, I started seeing things concerning soooo many “big time ministers” that simply disturbed my spirit. Not initially, but the more I grew in the Lord, the more I became discerning of what was not right in the Church.

As I observed TD more and more, I noticed the softness of his biblical stance on social issues that many Christians deal with or experience. Other than talking about “You will make it and God will bless you,” it was just a bunch of fluff messages that kept everyone crying and excited about the material…all the while ignoring HOLINESS. This is when I started to back away and let all that stuff go.

Now, while I hope that if this is true to the letter, he will repent and like Haggard, be “man” enough to admit his discretions to those he’s been accountable to, repent, and seek restoration. However, if pride rules, then only God knows what will happen.

As for TD’s sermon and his accusation of a possible lesbian relationship of Ruth and Naomi, that was ridiculous! To allude to such an idea was very immature and misleading in that it could have others to believe that the Word is not trustworthy in it’s previous denounciation of homosexuality. In that we today are just “too slow” to understand what the writer actually meant……please! For him to even go there concerns me.

I haven’t read every post yet, but it just occurred to me that Ruth is under attack because she is in the lineage of Jesus Christ, as is David. To link them with homosexuality would, in the minds of “saved” homosexuals, give validity to their lifestyles, because, after all, God chose this bloodline to birth Jesus. Just a thought.

I apologize to you and for disrupting the post because i was balancing your extreme views with the grace of God, which is still valid today…even though it’s not thrown around much on posts like this.

But some of us still need the grace of God to make it through. and when we fall short….we know we can access it. but it seems that when someone falls short in your eyes…it automatically put them in the category with the devil…….

Thanks for allowing me to participate in this conversation.

God bless you and may you learn and know His grace towards men, because I know that there was at least once in your life when you needed it.

GCMW: Jesse, you are very insecure and uninformed among other things. Comments routinely can get caught up in spam filters for a variety of reasons until they are released. That’s after they have been sifted through to find out which ones are not spam. Does this mean you are moving on?

Jesse, like most postmodernist influenced Christians, you misunderstand grace and misuse it as a cover for sin and the sins of others. Such individuals rarely cite repentance in concert with grace. See Psalms 51 as an appropriate example of how we should respond to the grace of God.

“WHEN A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP..[homosexual] GETS TOO CLOSE, PEOPLE DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO SAY!…[referring to Ruth and Naomi, and Jonathon and David!]
[ above clip of Jakes.]

Meaning, that because it is real, and the love is authentic, then it is validated. This is simply a fall from grace, and stems from the Satanic Doctrines of Secular humanism. We determine good and bad, right and wrong, determined upon our needs and Desire for happiness. We no longer accept God, and His Holy Scriptures as the sole edict of our behavior. Our ideas, then shift naturally as to Good and Evil, according to the lusts of the Flesh.

The Vatican catacombs were found with the skeletal remains of Hundreds of slain and aborted children, the fruit of the many consorts and Nuns taken by various Popes and his courts. This is divorced from the abominations of the burnings, torture, and slaughters of ENTIRE FAMILIES by these “CHRISTIAN” leaders. It seemed a good thing to do at the time, I guess.

My point is this. If we dwell outside the Word of God, and His Holy Spirit, we will naturally gravitate to our own natures, which are DEPRAVED!, and then, to escape condemnation within our own mind, justify anything we choose to do. Anything.

I have often thought that the sins of the flesh; immorality especially, were caused in the root of it, by PRIDE. Pride is the root of lust, for it wars against Godly Conviction. Without Godly conviction we become NUMBED, or , as the Word speaks about the Great Harlot, “drunken”.[..as to the blood of the Saints..]

Then, when the conviction goes, along with the Holy Spirit, our natures masquerade unto ourselves, as the good and right thing to do. We become consumed by our own sensuality, and call depravity “NORMAL”.

I saw Jakes in the 80s when he first came on the TBN “DOLLY” show. He was somewhat of a phenomena,,and charismatic. He, making millions a year, [and his books were best sellers] became very rich.

It was impossible to preach the gospel around that crowd, as they hated the CROSS, and embraced, happiness and prosperity as the goals of the Christian walk. Self denial, and the Precious bloody sacrifice of the Lamb, Jesus, were Anathema. It was bad for business: this suffering message.

Jakes was their darling for many, many years, as the black ambassador to their guilded brand of the prosperity gospel. The natural progression of following this pride, is the same as the Popes of yesteryear. Anything goes, for God wants us to be happy, healthy, and prosperous above all, and there is no consideration for the wounding or offense of others along the way. “After all, they are just in my way, and is not this God’s way?”

I am no fan of TD Jakes, as I can see quite plainly that he’s only about robbing GOD. However, I really can’t come to any kind of conclusion on the endorsing homosexuality allegation. The clip is really just floating… it would be great to have some context… isn’t that how we read the Holy Bible? We don’t just look at one verse or passage when we’re truly seeking the LORD’s Truth — we read the whole chapter, the whole book, etc.

I dare not say you’re wrong or that you are lying or ‘stretching’ because we’ve all seen the gay priests and preachers and reverends exposed. If they’re in the world, it makes very much sense that they’re in the churches, too.

I’m linking to this post anyway, as it still is vital information. I would just appreciated the context of this sermon. Unless Jakes has had all copies of it destroyed, there must be a video/audio/text out there somewhere.

Anyway, perhaps you’ve watched this YouTube video, too. Jakes in an NPR interview in which he refuses to condemn homosexuality… and makes it seem like people who die in sin go to heaven.

Thank you my brother for having the nerve. And Apostlerey, thank you also for coming forward.

I am doing research, but I heard our man TD is cancelling his TBN slot and supposedly moving to Africa. Once again I don’t know how true this is, but we should research this, to confirm.

Now, the point is repentance. It is ashame if a person would rather run than submit themselves and repent. There’s plenty of love and truth to go around. I and everyone else I know who loves the church and people of God will respect this man and other preachers who have gone the same path, IF they just humble, submit, repent and turn.

Running and claiming that it’s God seems to be the MO of his ministry. You can run but you can’t get away from God, Bishop TD because I KNOW you’re reading this post. Please repent and do this thing RIGHT.

Thank you Pastor Burnett, Rob and everyone who has spoken encouragement. Let’s all seek the Lord and pray that this will work out for the good of them that love God and are the called according to his purpose.

This only confirms for me that preachers are NOT to be trusted. I will NEVER trust a pastor again (Not because of Jakes; he is just confirmation). People created this Frankenstein and then we wonder why he is killing the people. In the words of Shakespeare, ‘A PLAGUE ON ALL YOUR HOUSES!”

This is very unfortunate that T.D.Jakes is associating himself with such a sermon. Typically our answers would be based on our own lives. You could probably ask 3 different Christians that same question and get different answers, but honestly my first thought wasn’t to think something gay.
I say as a church ask God to reveal TD Jakes and pray for his deliverence as well.

I really appreaciate your boldness for speaking and standing up for the truth of God’s Word. So many of the ‘big names’ are too much in love with the adoration and applause of men, they will have to answer to God for all the souls that will be in hell since they would NOT tell them the truth. I raised 3 boys and one of the talks I would give them concerning their relationships with others of the same sex went a bit like this: “There is a real friendship love that you can have with other males, very close and deep love, like David and Jonathon in the Bible, or as John put his head on Jesus’ breast. That doesn’t mean you have to go to bed with them.” WELL, there was more to the talk than that, but you get the gist of it. This concerning Jakes is very disturbing, but I am not surprised at all by it, I have for a long time been suspect of him, he just seemed too effeminate too me (being a converted bi-sexual from my hippy days) I think my past has given me some intuitions, along with the HOLY GHOST of course. Anyway, thanks for preaching the truth.

OK. I commented previously about desiring context — and even w/ this excerpt from the sermon Jakes preached this mess in … I still don’t know what the man is talking about.

And why does it sound like he’s making ‘best friend’ connections, or what have you, seem carnal. Did he ever consider that Ruth had a conscience and loved her mother-in-law… who would have been alone with no means of really supporting herself?

Did he ever consider that Jonathan loved David to death because he was like a brother to him? Has Mr. Jakes made no friends whom he would run back into a burning building for? What’s sex have to do w/ that?

Let him keep messing around… the more fire he piles on his head, the worse his punishment before the LORD will be — each paid based on his own works, right?

You know, with all do respect, the voice used in a clip that doesn’t even show TD Jakes, and a clip that actually doesn’t even sound like TF Jakes….Hmmmm why are people quick to believe all Youtube clips. I don’t trust the Youtube clips that aren’t lives especially when it’s of this kind of nature.

I listen to many of TD Jakes material and I can say that the man you listen to on the clip doesn’t even sound like TD Jakes. I think the two voices are close but I don’t for one minute believe that’s TD Jakes.

First, it’s how many seconds long?

Second, because it’s only a few seconds long can we really bring things into proper perspective.

Third, it’s just not right from a few second clip to say a man preaches pro-gay theology. I’ve never heard pro-gay theology from TD Jakes.

Fourth, here’s a challenge to search through the Youtube and watch the live Youtube video’s of TD Jakes and then compare the voices of the two.

Listen carefuly, listen over the two a few times. And just see for yourself.

The voices are similar but I hear a difference. Perhaps my hearing is better then most. Hearing specialists have said so. At any rate, I hear a distinct difference.

Do another Youtube search on Dr. James Dobson and you will find another clip much the same. It’s only a photo, it doesn’t show the person live. If you listen to the video you might think the voice is that of Dr. James Dobson but in truth it’s not.

First, TD Jake’s has some problems right from the get go in regards to his oneness theology. And yes a little leaven is all it takes to corrupt the whole lump if you will.

Secondly, TD Jake’s has been warming up to homosexuals. Go and search this website and you will see that this man has deviated from the truth not only in this regard but others.

Lastly You said,”Our weak points he continues to say…..”If you are not a homosexual he’s not going to send you a man…how many here know what I’m talkin about…”

First what makes you think its “always” the Devil doing this. TD Jake’s can be very wrong in what he says. In fact, instead of always blaming it on the Devil why can’t we just believe what the Bible says about fallen man. Most people are drawn to sin because of their sin nature. How that sin nature manifests itself is not in most cases a direct cause by the Devil but rather man being inherently evil. In fact let me put it this way. Once we sinned we became depraved individuals in every aspect. Even if the Devil never personally interfered in your life you by your nature would still sin.

So in this case what a believer needs to do is not try to “always” create a boogie man if you will, but rather in humility crucify his flesh and follow Jesus. Too often we blame the Devil directly instead of looking into our own unrepentant heart. In fact if we are truly saved we have the victory already in Jesus Christ.

In closing I suggest YOU youtube TD Jake’s and listen to his apostasies such as Oneness theology, Prosperity Gospel, and yes his warming up to homosexuals.

I just wanted to add that although I do not agree with you on TD Jakes and others similar to him I do want to commend you on your standing for truth regarding Homosexuality on your blog site. I’ll keep you in my prayers.

I saw the original sermon that this clip was taken from. It was TD Jakes’ program and he preached it. I distinctly remember looking at my family members when he made the statement about Naomi and Ruth. I said to them that that statement was “out there” and that he had to go looking really deep to come up with that conclusion. It was at that point that I decided that I had had enough of TD Jakes.

Welcome to Church Laodicea. Jakes and the rest of his colleagues are are Evil Shepherds leading the sheep astray. Stupid Sheep. Don’t you know the voice of the true Shepherd, Yeshua? If you do not then it is because you do not belong to HIM. Keep following these false shepherds and see where they lead you. It will not be to Salvation. You will be led into Isaiah 4:1

Repent dumb sheep. Leave these “seeker-sensitive” shepherds and these “wealth and health” shepherds. Yeshua wasn’t “seeker-sensitive” and He was utterly “impoverished”. TBN, Jakes, Hinn, and the likes would of cast Him out of their congregations because He wouldn’t of had a cent to His name.

In my opinion I really dont think Jakes was meaning to say that Ruth and Naomi and David and Johnathan were in some type of homosexual relationship. I did not gather that from the 38 second clip. (however I would need to hear the whole sermon in order to get a complete understanding of what is being preached).

P.S. To the above poster (Kyle) there is nothing Apostotate about the Oneness Doctrine. There is only ONE LORD, ONE FAITH AND ONE BAPTISM and the theme is central throughout all 66 books of the bible. But you dont have to take my Word for it.

GCMW: Note for pop and kyle…if you want to engage in discussion on the merits or demerits of apostolic/oneness doctrine, please move it to the open forum. Any other notations posted here will be deleted. Thanks.

I know this angers many of us — when false teachers seem to rule the flock — … but do we really need to start calling those who may be spiritually immature ‘dumb’ and ‘stupid?’

I’m sure loving words like that will help the struggling brothers and sisters. I don’t know whose names are written the Lamb’s Book of Life, so I’ll refrain from slinging names at the sheep — except for the ones in the pulpit whose obvious, willful sins just stink. But even some of them the LORD may very well save.

To thepope,
He did not say they were in a homosexual relationship, he suggested that Ruth’s words bordered on lesbianism.
Nevertheless, what do you think he was meaning to say? You can see the context (we’ve already posted this twice) just read up.

“Ruth and Naomi borders LESBIANISM……………”
“David and Jonathan……SAME SEX RELATIONSHIP GETTING TOO CLOSE…………”
What in the world???? And who are these people saying they don’t get homosexuality from the mouth of Jakes in this sermon? What else can you get from it? Where does “lesbianism” come from? Homosexuality !! Not friendship or family relation.
What does same “sex relationship” reference?
Homosexuality !! Not friendship or family relation.
No husband (man) and wife (woman) or even boyfreiend & girlfriend has ever said “I’m in an opposite sex relationship.” That’s Deconstruction at the near worst…….

Some of yall………………yall need to stop………..yall are too old to be playing like that……………yall are too old to be playing like you’re that ignorant. You need your hands spanked.

To DL Foster:

I’ve been reading on this site from time to time and the only post I’ve made was to Neil’s “Shellfish” article, which was excellent.

My pastor asked me to teach a class about a month ago. I did very little instruction. I had my brother to bring his laptop and play clips of TD Jakes, Joel Osteen, Billy Graham & Oprah so that the class could hear heresy from the horses mouth. My brother, who gets pretty honest when he’s teaching, says that I’m mean sometimes because I don’t sugarcoat. I see the same in you and others on this site.

I don’t know you, but from reading your articles and explanations, I love you from the bottom of my heart and you are an encouragement to me and I’m sure to a LOT more christians who have the opportunity to hear you. I love your honesty, perserverance, your dedication to sticking only to the word of God, and your uncompromising spirit. Know that you are not alone and know that you have many praying for you.

GCMW: Thank you Freddles. I am speechless and deeply blessed by your comments. God is so faithful to send encouragement. Were it not for the prayers of the saints, I would be like Elijah under the juniper tree. I pray that every saint will be true to our King and serve him with all of their heart, body and soul. God bless you!

Kind of hard for me to imagine that Ruth and Naomi were lesbians when at the beginning of the book they were both married to men, and at the end of the book Ruth was re-married to a man and, get this, actually had sex with a man and produced a child with a man. Sort of difficult for me to imagine lesbians doing such strange things as having intercourse with men (their husbands).

I read this blog and the next day read about Ruth and Naomi. Whenever the Bible talks about sex it is usually accompied with of “knowing or wanting to be known”. This terminolgy is used by the wicked men in Sodom when they wanted to have sex with the angels, and rejected Lot’s virgin daughters. I have also heard about the lies circled around about David and Johnathan. This terminalogy is not used in the text, and 1 more thing. This goes against the very character of our Lord. He would not allow these people to be the ansestors of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. May His wonderful name before ever praised.

Derrick, I agree with you on everything except the part about certain types of people not being ancestors of Christ. Actually Jesus had a wide array of “unsavory” types of people in his lineage. Ruth was one of those peoples. Moabites were cursed but it was her undying devotion to Naomi, her GOD and her people that engrafted her life into the Savior’s bloodline.
But it WAS NOT because she had any lesbian inclinations as suggested by TD Jakes.

Jakes can only deceive others so long and then God will pull off his religious covering. It does not surprise me that he claims Ruth and Noami were lesbian lovers nor that he would claim David and Jonathan were homosexual lovers. Claims such as this lays open his own “coming out of the closet.” I have warned the world that this man is a fraud and a fake. He is not a true man of God. His church is not the potter’s house, it is the potter’s field! Anyone who would follow this preacher after he claims David and Jonathan were homosexual lovers is a nuts as he is. If there are any real men and women of God attending his potter’s field church, I urge them to come out from among the Jakeites and be separated unto the Lord Jesus in true sanctification and holiness.

having studied religion at a secular university before going to a conservative evangelical seminary, i heard secular professors talk about david and jonathan this way. i heard the hints and suggestions.

however, from this one paragraph, i do not think td jakes is advocating this position, just pointing out what some might say or what things might sound like after a superficial reading. we would need to examine the remaining text of the sermon to see where he was going. i do not think it is fair to assume that jakes is advocating homosexuality based on what could very well be an introduction or tension building part of a message.

What is going on even Not Your Typical Negro is on this blog, poor TD Jakes, wow I know I would not want to be outed like this.

GCMW: DW, I dont quite understand what you are implying. What was “outed”, that wasnt already “out”? Be specific. By using the gay coined word “out” you seem to be suggesting that information here was previously hidden.

I do not know whether I support this sort of expose, sure there have been hints by others before notably G Craige Lewis but this is a new high or low point in scrutiny. I am glad no one has been blackmailing him.

GCMW: What sort of expose? This is no expose as it is/was all public knowledge as early as 2001. Everything in the article is based on original, specific PUBLIC actions and commentary by TD Jakes. This article does not suggest nor imply blackmailing and there is no information anywhere to lead one to believe there is, so lets steer clear of that. The intent of the blog is to compare TD Jakes theology against scripture. In doing so it is fair to examine why he has publicly released such errant theology. And to be clear, GCM Watch is not asking for your support, we are asking that you uphold God’s word.

My concern is for the people who follow him, that is why I would not have come out with this sort of news. where is it going to stop, he is not the only one out there, these stories have to be handled with care, just because when the tabloids get hold of what has been said, I shudder to think of what they will do to Christianity.

GCMW: You are arguing a secular/carnal viewpoint which has no bearing here. We are commanded to test the spirits, try doctrines and warn the church when false prophets are on the loose. What does that have to do with a “tabloid”? If you beleive that false teachings and false doctrine, money worship, manipulation, lies and more should be kept secret, you dont have a kingdom perspective. Such sins left without scrutiny by the Body, will cause the scattering of the sheep. It only takes is a little leaven to affect everything. This is more than just a little, so what do you think the extent of the damage ALREADY is?
You asked when it is going to stop. It stops when God’s people do what 2 Chronicles 7:14 says to do.

Indepent conservative I am spirit filled, I prophesy on the streets , I lay hands on children and they have visions of third heaven, I ask the sick to declare their healings on the streets. I admit I believe in the Holy Spirit.

(What has Patricia King ever done wrong?)

Independent Conservative I have a problem with the way you read the Bible, that is for sure but that is not the discussion.

All I was pointing out is that there needs to be a soft landing for the followers of TD Jakes Ministry, just because some of them are young Christians. I am also uncomfortable with the liberal use of false prophets.

It is obvious you will not listen to me, but there is a danger of the religious spirit justifying us when we resolve problem in unbiblical ways.

Maybe TD Jakes is not available because his entourage is preventing others from meeting him, that his problem but scripture gives us guidelines on how to resolve these problems.

Youngblood’s story has some serious loopholes. First of all-evidence or proof.. Where is it? Anyone can write a blog charging others with indiscretions but without evidence it borders on unsubstantiated slander. Christians should never be a part of this tabloidish pollution that is permeating our society by the hour. Secondly, if he was approached, why not cap Jake? Or report it to his superiors like the Bible says? If there is no satisfying discipline then why not just leave? Who wants to sit under a hypocrite? But to let something like this wreck your marriage or send you on a wreckless course of adultery to prove your manhood, puts strong doubts in my head. If Youngblood is make Jakes to be a sexual predator, then what does that make him? The Jake haters will jump on this bandwagon, fact or fiction, the weak will assume it is true and pull their support, but the wise will take a second look and say, “something’s fishy with this story.” If this blog is ran by true born-again believers and you are posting these allegations then I say “shame on you.” God has given us a kingdom formula of dealing with all matters-how dare we take the world’s way!

I must say that I am quite disturbed by that clip. I heard it played on the radio by another ministry that was appaled by it. I also heard it when it was preached on TBN.

I want to point out one thing about what he stated. He did not say the Ruth and Naomi were lesbians, but that the relaionship somehow paralleled a lesbian relationship. How a person can even go there in their mind is inconcievable. The question about the “full context” of the sermon is a mute point to me because just uttering the words “Bordered on lesbianism” or “same sex relationship” in reference to Ruth and Naomi or David and Johnathan is proof of some serious doctrinal issues regardless of the context.

No one who loves the Lord and seeks the truth will ever have a problem interpreting the relationship between Ruth and Naomi as anything but what the Bible says it is. A daughter in law taking care of her mother in law. I have made it up in my mind to never leave my Mother in law as well! I will do whatever it takes to keep her from a nursing home. Does that imply a lesbian relationship?

TD Jakes has left the Word. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. He has mad MANY heretical statements that prove he is a FALSE preacher. This is just one of many ways he is used by satan to turn men from the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for all our needs. He is effectively turning people away from the Cross and to himself.

Read the Bible. Know and discern doctrine.(gasp…. yes I mean JUDGE what you hear against the Word of God)

Ray Stone, where did you get the information that the blog post you read was the full story? Please let us know.

And indeed if Christians (good, upstanding unblemished types like yourself) should never be involved with “tabloidish pollution”, then why did you read what you have determined to be shameful tabloidish pollution and then post a comment? Why Ray, just couldnt resist? Well, guess what? You just got involved.

Now, go wash yourself in the Jordan river seven times to get clean. Let us know when you have purified yourself.

In reading this I have only one thing to say May God have mercy on us. it never ceases to amaze me how people will twist the word of God to justify their own sins and to make people into something they aren’t

The Doctrine Committee of the United Free Church of Scotland made the following helpful observation on the abuse of the 1 Samuel 18 passage in their 1995 report ( http://www.ufcos.org.uk/doct95.htm ):

“These verses have been adduced as evidence in support of the claim that the much vaunted friendship between David and Jonathon was a homosexual relationship. There is, however, no hint of erotic behaviour in the Biblical text and the ‘shame’ described in 20:30 related to Jonathon’s disloyalty to his father and family when siding with David against Saul. Indeed it was the Panel’s view that the current preoccupation with homosexuality could devalue and cast unnecessary suspicion upon those wholesome relationships that are possible between same-sex friends.”

Same goes for Jakes’ abuse of the Ruth and Naomi passage. This undermines friendship. It’s not at all helpful

correct me if I am wrong, are you saying TD Jakes is a homosexual? or that he supports Homosexuals? I don’t think the official position of the Potters House is to accept Homosexuality as an acceptable orientation.

GCMW: Richard Youngblood made that claim based on his personal experience with TD Jakes. I believe Mr. Youngblood’s account. It may indeed be the “official position” of the Potters House not to accept homosexual orientation, but I dont think you would find anyone who would say that has stopped homosexuals from going there, being members and being on PH staff. So much for “official positions”.

Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load.
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.

So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?

Paul, thanks for the scriptures. Now, lets apply them. The Bible tells us not to just quote scripture(what you did) but to rightly divide them so that we will not be ashamed before God.

With that in mind, please answer the following based on the scriptures you cited.

1. How do you restore someone before they admit that what they have said and done is indeed sinful? Is that even possible to restore prior to confession and repentance?

2. Are you sure that this is not God revealing TD Jakes’ sin and not just people “judging” him unfairly? If it is indeed God, what is your response to that?

3. You cited the scripture in Romans 2. Are you suggesting that GCM Watch agrees that Ruth’s monolgue bordered on lesbianism? Or that we have parterned with Dr. Phil who believes homosexuality is genetic? Or that we believe the Bible says nothing about how to deal with AIDS? Or that we cant say if Muslims and unrepentant homosexuals are going to heaven?

4. Paul is there any point when God will withhold his grace and mercy and discipline those whom he loves? What happens if they reject his discipline and what ways do we know based on the scripture that God will discipline a person?

I hope that you will help us to rightly divide the scriptures you quoted so fluently.

You asked me to apply the scriptures quoted? What application is needed when what is written in my above post from the BIBLE is quite clear? I’m sure you can cite a few passages that are CLEAR.

To respond to your questions:

Answer to #1. I will not accuse forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me—
the breath of man that I have created.
I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will guide him and restore comfort to him,

Answer to #2. The LORD reigns forever;
HE has established his throne for judgment.
HE will judge the world in righteousness;
HE will govern the peoples with justice.
The LORD is a refuge for the oppressed,
a stronghold in times of trouble.

Answer to #3. I am not suggesting anything. I am only using with the Word of God. If you gathered from that passage of scripture in Romans 2 that GCM watch could possibly agree that Ruth’s statement bordered on lesbianism, or that you have partnered with Dr. Phil or about what the bible says about AIDS…then that’s for you and your heart to grapple with. (For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.)

Answer to #4. BLESSED is the man whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty. [a]
For he wounds, but he also binds up;
he injures, but his hands also heal.

Whether a person rejects his discipline is subjective and without evidence in most cases….but just to make sure we keep it in the Word. IF they reject it, then

As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Sorry for coming in late to the game! I have been waiting on the Holy Spirit to give me what HE wants the Body of CHRIST to hear concerning THIS, especially with T.D. Jakes(I will not call him Bishop any longer until he repents, renounces openly for the whole world to hear because he said what he said about Ruth and Naomi and David and Jonathan publicly for the whole world to hear!…T.D. Jakes is no longer worthy of the title Bishop…He has become an enemy to GOD and the Body of CHRIST!).

Well, I give Kudos to our brother and friend Pastor Harvey Burnett and his blog addressing this issue today and then I heard GOD speak to me. And I will post the following that I posted on this blog today…The Doctrine of Devils.

I was meditating on this commentary and I agree with your commentary and the comments from Pastor Foster, yourself, Jim Edmonton(Jim what you’re saying about Canada will come to pass in the USA too), Godlysoldier, and Beckrl and I heard the Holy Spirit say to me in this wise: Brother shall betray brother…and a man’s enemies shall be of his own household. I knew these were the direct words of our LORD and SAVIOUR KING JESUS CHRIST! I immediately looked up the passages of scriptures.
Mark 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Matthew 10:36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

Pastor, the Spirit is saying these enemies that ARE ATTACKING from WITHIN were at one time or another WERE our brothers(male and female) in CHRIST, our spiritual fathers, our spiritual children. A holy man of GOD’s foes shall be they of his own household…of Faith!

Judas’s (more than one, for the word declares many anti-christs) ARE in the churches and they will sell us(the true Body) out to SAVE themselves(lovers of themselves!)and for the things of this world!

The apostasy or the great falling away IS NOT about sinners(or unbelievers)…a sinner can’t fall away or backslide… but in the Latter times(RIGHT NOW!)…SOME…those WHO once claimed the faith…will depart the faith for….the doctrine of devils!

Rejoice my brothers and sisters in CHRIST, We are witnessing the fulfillment of 1 Timothy 4:1, and the above referenced scripture BEFORE our very eyes! Rejoice, I say! Rejoice and Look up for our redemption draweth nigh!

I would like to say something. I have been knowing about T.D. Jakes for about 5 years now. I never told a soul, i just waited to see if something would surface about him. I went to Georgia 5 years ago with my friend and my cousin. We were supposed to only just be going for 1 day to pick up furniture and come back. I didn’t want to go because both my friend and my cousin were still in the world and i wasn’t. We got there and my friend took us to her friend’s house that she use to live with and he is gay. We ended up staying 2 days because of some difficulties that came about. The part of Georgia we were in was about 30 minutes from Atlanta, i forget the name, but i’m sure they know because my cousin stayed after we came back. Well on the 2nd day we were at his(the gay man) apartment when i went outside to call my husband. I came back in cause i heard my cousin hollering. I was like what’s wrong with ya’ll. she and my friend said girl you will never believe what just happened. I said what. Still in shock they told me that the man had just got off the phone with Jakes. I was so hurt at the time expecially after what was said next. The gay man, obviously didn’t ever think we would say anything because he trusted my friend dearly because she use to live with him, or he wouldn’t have been so open with me and my cousin of whom he had just met. Gay people don’t lie about stuff like that either. Jakes had called him to check on him and ask him did he need anything. Jakes and the man have sex when Jakes comes to Atlanta. Jakes has contracts for him to sign so to keep quiet. I couldn’t believe my ears and i wanted to pass out. I was feeling Jakes ministry at the time too. I told them all of them were lying so many times and my cousin and my friend knew me, so they just really calmed me down and verified the conversation. The gay man was like, do you think i got a reason to lie, this is normal to me and happens all the time. I was shocked all the way back home. I didn’t say anything to anyonebecause i didn’t want to put my mouth on a preacher and i didn’t hear the conversation. i said i would just watch and wait to see if anything comes out. God exposes the fake and wolves, so this thing about Jakes had begun to come to light and i believed what happened in that apartment. Homosexuality is wrong. if homosexuality was right, and everyone was gay, then there would be no more children or generations and everyone would become extinct and die off. it goes against scripture and the Lord saying be fruitful and multiply. That’s a spirit from the pits of hell and satan was so high on himself that i wouldn’t be surprised at how that’s how that spirit got started.

In our current society when so many are sexually confused under NO circumstances shoudl you imply that the godly saints of the Bible were engaged in homosexuality. It is not written in the word and we know based on various scriptures Romans 1, Leviticus that God does not condone homosexuality…..These truly are the last days.

From the transcript of TD Jake’s sermon above, I would have to say that I understand exactly what he’s trying to say and I DO NOT believe he is in any way promoting a homesexual relationship.

I believe he is talking about a bond so intimate that in these current times / days WE are living in, it would be misunderstood. It would make us uncomfortable to see such unashamed affection between two unrelated people of the same sex.

When he uses David and Jonathan as an example, once again, who in these modern times would accept that “David heard of Jonathan’s passing and he wept, saying Jonathan’s love to me was sweeter than the love of women?” was simply a friend’s love for a friend? Do gay men have the sole preserve of weeping for a fallen comrade?

We’ve taken everything that is good and pure (breastfeeding, male bonding and many other social norms) and twisted and perverted them – ie. the public doesn’t want to see your boobs unless you’re swinging from a stripper pole, and if two men are comfortable being physical with each other, then they MUST be queer.

I would rather believe the very best about this man, who is re-instilling family values into black American men (who very often lack fathers and thus role models), until I am faced with evidence that I absolutely cannot contradict.

I must say, I have become sick to my stomach just reading this stuff. I am a member of HGAAA and I am not happy about what I am reading, neither am I surprised. God forbid if any of this would be true, the real truth of the matter is that nothing else really matters except for Spreading the Gospel of Jesus. It is true that we have false prophets in the land, and we will continue to have them. This article has in no way given me any proof that Bishop Jakes is one. I don’t know what he does in his private life, and on that note; I don’t know what ANYONE does. I am confident in saying that Bishop Jakes teaches the Word of God with clarity and understanding with an Anointing that breaks the yolks off of people’s lives. I don’t walk this journey by believing the words that come out of the mouth of men; I READ THE WORD FOR MYSELF and when the preacher comes, he shares what HIS REVELATION of what the Word says. As far as homosexuals; I work in a prison and have encountered many who talk openly to me about what they are going through. The majority tell me that they have come too far and that they know that hell is their destination. I have learned to have more respect for them (homosexuals), and have made it clear to them that God loves EVERYBODY, He just HATES sin. I explain to them that being with the same sex IS a sin, and the WAGES of sin IS death. I also explain that being with someone other than your wife is ADULTRY which is also a SIN. Author, you mentioned in your article that you went out and slept with as many women as you could to prove that you were/are in fact a man; I question that act as well. No matter how many people tell me that because I spend my time witnessing to the drug heads on the street that I too am a drug head; I am not going to become an alcoholic to prove them wrong. It just seems to me sir, that you should repent and stop slandering others. May God have mercy upon ALL OF US!

Thank you for replying to my comment. I don’t want to go back and forth because neither one of us know the real truth. satan is the accuser of the bretheren so go figure. You are right about one thing though, I did confuse the Authors but nevertheless, it is what it is. Thank you for your time.

Satan is the accuser of the BRETHREN, not of apostates. TD Jakes said these things with his OWN mouth. I bet when he finally says that homosexuality is not a sin, he will convert all of his followers to that way of thinking instantly, because people value the words of a great orator over the Word of God.
It amazes me how people are quick to say “judge not, lest ye be…” and forget how Paul delivered Hymenaeus
and Alexander over to satan that they might learn not to blaspheme. Or how a brother in sexual imorality “not named among the Gentiles” was to be delivered to satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. I Tim 1: 19-20; 1 Corinth. 5: 1-13
We ARE to judge those inside, those named a brother. God judges the outside, the world.

Sister Cullins, why stay ignorant? If you really wanted to prove me or anyone else a liar, just go ask. There’s no need to go back and forth. Just go ask. Unless of course you really dont want to know the truth.

Hi, I respect all comments that are pertaining to my previous blog. I am somewhat sadden that you would think that I was ignorant. I will say that I don’t know everything, neither have I proclaim to. I consider myself an intelligent young woman, and in my opinion from reading your previous blogs, you seem to be as well. I thought in the beginning of my visit to this sight, that it is very interesting and informing. I also thought that a person can just come here and drop a comment and call it a day. I feel like I am in a debate trying to fend for Bishop Jakes when all I wanted to do was to comment on the article. It would be ignorant for me to go back and forth about this situation as if I am defending a man. I still have my opinions and so does everyone else. I do study the Word of God and I am not ignorant to what the Scriptures are saying. My goal in this life is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to seek and save those who are lost. I will defend the name of Jesus until the end because He walked this earth as a Man without blame, and He gave His Life for mine. I can only say what I feel about Bishop Jakes but I can not be in the position to defend him unil the end because he is NOT without blame and he has not or will not lay down his life for me. He has a daily struggle as we all do. I hope that we can agree on one thing, neither of us have a heaven or hell to put Bishop Jakes in! Thank you for your time, and I am aware that someone will dispute these comments as well. At any rate, I love you all with the Love of Christ! God Bless!!!!!!

“Let me read my bible again and see if any of the words DIRTY STINKING FILTHY LIAR come out of the mouth of God or Jesus towards anybody..”

Blind leading the Blind….

Jesus said about false teachers:

Matthew 15:14
“Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”

Luke 6:39
“And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? ”

Matthew 23:27
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness.”

Looks like his condemnation was ALOT worse……

And remember that Jesus did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill. So all that was said…..is testifying of HIM….

Matthew 5:17
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”

Matthew 5:18
“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

Pastor Foster, TD Jakes will be coming to Jamaica
on Dec 9-10, 2008 as theto headline a conference ” THE WAY FORWARD” See quotation from below

Bishp T.D. Jakes embodies true leadership and stewardship. His anointed message of healing and restoration has had a great impact on the church and global community, transcending cultural and denominational barriers.” – Chairman of Pastors In Action, Rev. Al Miller.

He was invited by a coalition of Evangelical, Pentecostal church leaders, who planned this conference with a view of having Christians from all over the island gather at one spot, and pray etc…..
regading the scourge of crime and recent brutal murders especially against children. An 11 y o girl went missing, and her naked, headless body was found a couple weeks later. Another 12 y o boy was cut into six pieces by group of teenagers. And recently another 11/12 yo boy was found mutilated,
and naked in a canefield in the Western part of the isalnd. It’s like all hell is breaking loose, literally in this nation! Then add to this vile witches’ brew of iniquity , the current hearings regarding the proposed legalisation of abortion…….

Hence THE WAY FORWARD Conference, and its a bit scary because one of the features is that BIshop Jakes will be ministering to Pastors and their wives.

If all I’ve been reading about him in recent times is true, then his coming to Jamaica in this manner
may do more harm than good.

Please pray for our island folk at this time. , that salvation will come to our houses, and that we will be delivered from evil and deception.

lesha, with as much money as his religious empire pulls in each year, I hope that he will at least leave Jamaica with some of it to help families of crime victims. Im not sure about the preaching. Jamaica has my sincere prayers. Evil is everywhere, but know that the power of God is greatest and the love of God brightest when darkness is its darkest.

The video and many of the comments left about T. D. Jakes were very interesting to me. There is a great debate raging about whether Jakes promotes a doctrine that is “holy” in our eyes, according to our understanding of doctrine.

My problem with many of the comments on here is that we have forgotten what ministry is all about. The bible is clear on homosexuality, whore-mongering, among many other sins that will keep an individual from getting to heaven.

In 1st Corinthians 1, Paul wrote an Epistle to the Corinthian congregation, rebuking them for sectanarianism within the church. The saints were dividing themselves based upon their OWN personal preferences in a leader. The saints would make comments such as, “I am of Paul… I am of Cephas… I am of Apollos.” Then you had the holier than thou saints who called themselves seperating from everyone by saying they only followed Jesus. Yet, Pauls, rebuke was that any doctrine or person who attempts to divide the body based on opinion of personal preference is in fact looking to start a sect.

I do not know what Bishop Jakes relationship with God is. I believe he is a very gifted man. The bible also states the the gifts and callings of God are without repentence. Regardless of whether he is guilty or not, my question is… how many of the people who have commented have had the maturity to pray for him. Too often, we come with our pitchforks… much like the Pharisee’s and Saducee’s quoting scripture and theological law, but have NO ANOINTING to actually minister. An unsaved person can point out the wrong another person may OR may not have done. It doesn’t take anointing to do that. It does take MATURITY, ANOINTING, and the TRUE LOVE OF GOD to pray for those in leadership.

Truth be told, most of the people who post on here or comment aren’t willing to put their own skeletons out. Regardless of whether they will admit to it or not, we know those skeletons are there, for the bible states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

I conclude this by exhorting all of us to repent, and to hear God’s voice as is stated in Isaiah 45:2, “If my people, who are called by my name, will HUMBLE themselves, and seek my face (PRAY), and TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS, then I will heal their land.”

Bishop McNeil,
Unfortunately you have lurched off into a what could be termed a passive stance in dealing with the surge of false doctrine and false prophets in the church. You said many of the commenters have “forgotten what ministry is all about”, but the real question is have you forgotten what holiness is all about?

You seem to be saying that somehow prayer is the panacea for or perhaps a proper replacement for discipline and action. It is not.

Further, its unjust and cowardly not to CONFRONT leaders who spread information which could lead the flock astray. I wont quote the scriptures because Im sure with all of your theological training you already know what they are.

Real Christians do eschew sectarianism (ie. being a blind follower of TD Jakes to the point that you will not fairly evaluate what he is saying) and real Christians dont make ecclesiastical excuses for wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Finally, no one put TD Jakes’ so-called skeletons out. That’s a false comparison on your part. In case you didnt read, the post was based on public information released by TD Jakes. Its not secret “closet” material. So please dont suggest that TD is being treated unfairly. The skeleton issue is lame and cannot be justified scripturally.

As a leader you should be concerned with pure integrity and holiness in ministry, not trying to run cover for leaders who act as if they are not subject to the requirements placed on all saints. Does the qualifications of a bishop as set forth in 1 Timothy 3 mean anything any more? Or is being a bishop to be defined as being famous, rich and having a mega church?

You make some strong valid points, yet if you carefully read my comment, I never stated that I was for or against Bishop Jakes. That was an assumption you made because I made a counter-argument to what you were sayings. Instead of actually reading what I said in it’s context, you chose to get defensive. Let me ask your next question for you…”Why would you Bishop McNeil try to cover up for Bishop Jakes… are you one of his fans?” I’d be delighted to answer your question. “I am only a fan of Jesus Christ, but I respect the Bishop Jakes ministry. Is he perfect… NO!. Let me repeat. Is he perfect? No!”

There was no way to defend your point biblically, therefore in order to find a way to validate how you felt, you had to make the assumption that I was a fan of Bishop Jakes.

You are correct about Holiness, for in 1 Peter, it declares that we we must be holy, for the simple reason that God is holy. You have no argument against me there.

Yet, the whole purpose of the bible was to show the fall of man, the coming of a savior, one who died and rose again on the third day, and the redemption of mankind.

Unfornately, many of the comments and opinions eschewed on here stop at the part of judgement. Yes, sin should be dealt with. I REPEAT, before someone attempts to say I have a passive view of sin… “SIN SHOULD BE DEALT WITH.”

Yet, the question is not whether sin should be dealt with, because we already know that to be true. The question is, how do we deal with sin. The bible clearly talks about correction. I have no argument against you there.

The problem I have is that most of the individuals on here stop right now, making no attempt to restore an individual, assuming they actually did something wrong. There are maybe 10% of the comments on here that actually eschew the love of God.

Paul clearly states that love covers a multitude of sins. Even in Jesus ministry, when he chose to mingle among the sinners… he brought correction, yet always redeemed them through love. Before anyone tries to dismantle that particular point, let me take you to the bible. If you cannot agree with the Word of God, then perhaps those viewing this truly aren’t Christian. Consider the following:

John 8:1-11: When Jesus went to the temple, the Sscribes and Pharisee’s brought to him a woman caught in adultery. Due to the fact that the temple was full of people, obviously knowledge of her transgressions came to light and everyone knew. Judgementally, they asked Jesus in verse 5, “Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do you say?”

Ironically, they called themselves following God, but were ready to condemn His only begotten son because of their rigid interpretation of the Word. But notice how God’s love overshadowed their judgemental agenda’s.

In verse 7, Jesus said, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”

Sound familiar? Your argument is that Bishop Jake’s alleged transgression was public, and hence fair game to criticize. So was the adultress woman’s trangression, for all the people knew what she did.

2. Just like many of these comments in regards to Bishop Jakes, many people have taken on a Pharisean and Saducean spirit ready to judge Bishop Jakes.

Yet, my question is… Is there anyone without sin who is moderating or posting on here?

GMCWATCH, I noticed that you conveniently didn’t answer a peritinent question in my first post, which was… since according to you we must judge Bishop Jakes… why don’t you tell us what some of your shortcoming’s are, so we can blog about that?

It is convenient, but yet hypocritical for anyone, including me to throw someone else under the bus for their transgressions because what they did was public, and our sins are hidden because we don’t have the stature of Bishop Jakes. Am I enamored of Bishop Jakes– Not really. What God has for him is for him. I am glad with what God has given me.

I don’t stand in judgement of you GCMWATCH, or anyone on this post. I believe that many of the things posted on here were intelligent opinions written in a credible manner.

Yet, I plead with everyone to understand that regardless of what OUR opinions are, the bible supercedes them all. If you do not believe that, you are no better than a heretic who twists the bible to fit what we want for the sake of judgement. Don’t take one scripture and run with it and ignore the whole purpose of the bible. If we truly are saved, and led of the Holy Spirit, we cannot continue to only use the part of God’s Word that talks about condemnation, but then so easily skip over the part about love.

P. S. … Just to re-interate, Holiness is still right. We must be redeemed by the blood. Our mind must be renewed. We have to be given a new heart by God. I’m with you all the way there. I only exhort everyone on here, including myself, for I am not perfect, to understand that’s God’s purpose in the bible was not judgement, but love. God’s brings correction, yes, but it always ends in love. Look at the Israelites. He punished them many times, but in the end it was always about redemption.

If you do not believe that, then I challenge anyone on here to post what your short-comings and trangressions are. It will be interesting to see if all the people who were so eagerly willing to post about Bishops Jakes are going to post about themselves?

Bishop McNeil, Thanks for your comments here. Your challenges are (at least on my part) received. I do hope you are being reciprocal in receiving such challenges.

Just so you know, there is no flippancy on my part with your remarks. Your comment was read carefully and in context. In fact, I read all comments posted here…carefully and in context. Sometimes, I misinterpret what a person has written, though Im open to revise my comments should you present a clearer evidence of that.

That being said, its not good to make that a precursory issue because you have already committed the same alleged offense numerous times here. So let’s end that line of discussion.

You said: GMCWATCH, I noticed that you conveniently didn’t answer a peritinent question in my first post, which was… since according to you we must judge Bishop Jakes… why don’t you tell us what some of your shortcoming’s are, so we can blog about that?

Perhaps its only because the question is such a redundant one (and quite boring to me) that I have answered before. You can purchase my book, or take time to read any of the over 350 articles plus hundreds of comments Ive written here or in Charisma (sidebar) or any of the other multiple media venues where I have openly discussed my life and work. All are public domain and if you blog, feel free to jump right in. Again, this entire issue is about what is known PUBLICLY. Im not sure why you continue to equate public with private. How is a man’s public sermon equal a “skeleton” in the closet?

Secondly its not “according to me”, its according to 1 Corinthians 5. And we are not judging “Bishop Jakes”, we judge the fruit (public words and actions). Thats per Jesus.

Bishop McNeil, you are making a spiritually immature argument and thus continue to perpetrate a serious flaw of the contemporary church. And you complicate it here by claiming to be neutral on one hand, then saying you are agree with must deal with sin on the other. Its apparent you are choosing your words about Bishop Jakes carefully. Im sure you have your reasons other than what you are saying here. Thats respect of persons because you seemed to have no problem condemning (or casting stones at) the “commenters” (read: fellow saints) here then and quoting scripture to reinforce it.

You seem to be assuming that if a person criticizes another it can only be if that person is perfect. Perfection isnt the issue, maturity is. Maturity is not calling false teaching “a mistake” and minimizing serious doctrinal fallacy. That in plain language is running cover.

You said: I don’t stand in judgement of you GCMWATCH, or anyone on this post

This is a disengenous statement after accusing me and others of judging Bishop Jakes unfairly among other things. Its helpful If you have a specific problem with something someone wrote, then cite that and challenge it as opposed to throwing out generic sermonettes.

I stand corrected on one particular issue in my choice of words, which is a matter of symantics, yet still rings true. You stated that the bible tells us to judge the “fruit” of others, and not the person.

I am more than willing to admit when I made a statement that is not correct. Yet, I find it very interesting that you did not address anything I said about love and redemption being the ultimate theme of the bible, although I admit that many parts of it deal with judgement.

GCMW: As I noted before its not wise to make this an issue unless you have first been a partaker. If equity is required, equity must be given. That would be your responsibility since it is a priori to you. Specifically, you have ignored the preponderance of issues raised about Bishop TD Jakes’ false teachings, associations and public positions and in one case his sexual desires.

In my last comment, I posted a scripture, John 8:1-13, a story of Jesus dealing with an adultress woman brought before him in the temple. Two questions:

1. According to your opinion, was Jesus wrong for not condemning the woman according to John 8:1-12? (It was quoted in the previous blog)

GCMW: No, he was not. The problem with you using this as a justifiable backdrop is the obvious spiritual positions of the two people. The woman was a sinner, Bishop Jakes is not. Thus, the scripture you are using is only applicable in it broadest context possible. However, that route it would completely ignore all the NT instructions about those who teach false doctrine and claim to be followers of Christ.

2. The woman was clearly wrong. Therefore, according to your theology, did Jesus also have a passive stance on holiness, as you accused me of having?

GCMW: See above.

You also stated in your most recent reponse to one of my comments, “You seem to be assuming that if a person criticizes another, it can only be if that person is perfect.” I did not assume that at all. I simply was making the point that sin is sin, regardless of whether it was public or not.

GCMW: If indeed it is “the point”, then there was no need to direct it at people (including myself) who made comments you are in disagreements with. Thats what you did from the onset and it was punitive at best.

You also said, “Its apparent you are choosing your words about Bishop Jakes carefully. Im sure you have your reasons other than what you are saying here. Thats respect of persons because you seemed to have no problem taking up a condemning the “commenters” (read: fellow saints) here and quoting scripture to reinforce it.”

Lets assume for the sake of argument, that you are right about Bishop Jakes, and even my short-comings… the question now is… can you admit your own when it comes to certain parts of your argument?

GCMW: If you would be so kind, please be specific about what you are expecting me to admit? Again, if you are concerned with equity and context, would it be that I have taught false doctrine openly? Advocated for sin and partnered with people who openly despise the Word of the Lord? Secondly, there is no need to assume. The issues have been laid out in the post, refute them with clear evidence or either end this judgment goose chase.

You make many claims of writing credits, whether it is in Charisma, or other mediums for writing. So yes your information is public, just as Bishop Jakes is. That is great that you have used your God-given talents to spread the word. But that didn’t answer my question from the previous two postings. I simply asked that if we can judge the fruit of Bishop Jakes, why don’t provide excerpts of all your public material on this blog, so that we can sift through it and judge your fruits.

GCMW: No, not claims, the links are all on this blog, thus they have already been provided. Its just a matter of pointing and clicking. You are welcome to sift/judge away until you are completely satisfied, Bishop. Feel free to post your objections on one of the open forum posts. Please review our comment policy.

You seem like an fair man. I’m sure a man who believes in holiness would not have a problem with us examining all of your fruits since you started ministry. Jesus said, “Let him who has no sin cast the first stone.” I know you love God, therefore I look forward to the upcoming posting of the excerpts of all your material, just to be fair. So how about it?

GCMW: I’m not sure if you mean by “all” when I started preaching (Feb 1992) or when I started Witness Ministries (Feb 1996) or when I began this blog (June 2007) At any rate, if there’s something missing simply request it and we will do all to comply. Side note: youve repeated the casting stones verse several times now. Since you have cast at minimum 5 stones already, does that mean you are w/o sin or that you just need to repent for casting stones? And while youre at it, define “stones”.

I believe I know who he is…but he probably wont remember me because he wasnt at CH Mason Institute with me long enough to remember…if it is indeed the same fellow, then i can see why he would make an attempt to defend Mr Jakes…he wants the same “touch not” protection afforded him in his attempt to blow up…he has all the hallmarks of a fledgling pimp…

friends list populated with the big time pimps and small timers who take MySpace pics in their living room, dressed in full bishop’s regalia: CHECK

different partnership levels: CHECK

Heroes: TD Jakes, Todd Hall, Eddie Long and Creflo Dollar

its also weird that he couldnt finish lil old CH Mason Bible Institute but now he’s a he’s a theological scholar who has a Bachelor Degree of Church Ministry from the Sure Foundation Theological Institute, and is matriculating a Master’s and Doctorate of Ministry from Victory Bible College & Seminary, and is currently matriculating a Doctorate of Philosophy Degree from New Life Theological Seminary…and he’s also the presiding prelate of the PA Diocese of COGIC International…or maybe he isnt…

Wow, thats a lot of religious schooling. And my brother is a bishop in COGIC Intl so… Im kinda familiar with that org.

I guess right now Im at a loss for words. I guess you just take people at face value until you learn better.

Well despite his credentials or noncredentials and all, he certainly hasnt passed the muster (at least here) for sound biblical exegesis and application. Like I alluded to in one of my comments, he seemed to be carefully choosing his words in regards to TD Jakes. I guess if TDJ is your “hero” on Myspace you wouldnt want to offend him and possibly blow your chances of preaching at the Potters House.

Thanks, Djenk.

Hopefully Bishop McNeil will clear up any misunderstanding if he cares to.

I just want to know something about the human flesh. Why is it when people of God who has discernment to discern the suppose to be leadership that has been in leadership for years speak on the leaders behavior, the church gets offended. This leads me to believe that this is a “like” thing. I’m not going to quote scripture but i will if asked, but everything i’m about to say is sound doctrine. The flesh is weak as we all know. In order to kill the flesh we must read the Word of the Living God, and fellowship with Father and Son thus allowing Him to minister to us thru the His Holy Spirit to bring us into the knowledge of the TRUTH! Ok, with that being said, when the flesh is only being fed by what man says, then the Spirit is not winning because it has no connection with our Father because we are not hearing or doing our Father’s will. I grew up in a church building all my life, listening to what thus sayeth the preacher, and i never read for myself. Accepted Christ as my Saviour without even knowing what it really meant. It wasn’t until i started feeling uneasy while sitting in church with things never being said to convict my spirit. I then began to notice how everybody was hearing what they wanted to hear that tickled ears. I didn’t like that. I left the church building and ended up in the streets, joined a gang, and was doing what i wanted to do. Not long after that, the Lord started to draw me back to Him, telling me to seek His face. I didn’t understand what was going on so i kept living fast but i began to get tired. The Lord started to send people in my path to give me a word. ****NOT TO ENCOURAGE ME YET, BUT TO CONVICT ME**** That lead me to start a conversation with the Lord. I still didn’t understand yet. Then it seemed like everywhere i would go, i didn’t want to be there anymore, i felt like i was dirty and i felt scared. Then i began to cry out and repent. I started to read my word everyday and pray everyday allday. That was the only thing on my mind was to seek the Lord. Then i started encountering people that would encourage me. I began to fellowship with the Lord and He began to show me how He operates and i began to see everything so clearer. I was delivered out of the lion’s den and i haven’t looked back. What i am getting to is that i couldn’t afford to have a preacher tell me what i wanted to hear, my soul depended on and need the truth to point me back to Jesus the Christ thru true repentance! It makes me want to cry to hear a preacher teach unsound doctrine. I always hear we should not judge or pray for them. They are the ones who should know better more that us because we aren’t in leadership. I can’t see and don’t believe that my God would call alot of these preachers to lead his flock, and i can discern which ones they are. A tree is known by it’s fruit. While these preachers with their agendas are leading the flock astray, by not encouraging them to read the Word for themselves or pointing them to Jesus Christ, and taking their money for their own gain, and they know what they are doing, we pray for the sheep because Jesus will not allow not one of His sheep to be snatched out of His hands. These preachers, bishops, etc know what they are doing and there is a anti-christ spirit behind all of this. They know that they can get away with anything because they can say ” Jesus healed a pig” and the flock will say amen, so they have already established that nobody is reading for themselves. I know i’m not crazy and i know what to hold fast to, and i have a huge problem with these wolves in sheep’s clothing. I have a right to call them that because it’s in the Word. I know the difference between a brother or sister who is in need of prayer and restoration, and “satan transformed into an angel of light” I encourage everyone to please read the Living Word and fellowship with Him for yourselves. Ask Him to show you what is what and that His will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Ask Him to open your heart to recieve the truth, and if you are sincere, i guarantee that it will happen. God can’t lie. What he will show you will line up with His word and it will be the toatal opposite of what alot of mega church pastore etc teach. God bless!
Off topic, we need to keep people like this in our prayers. These are some of God’s lost sheep that He will snatch out of the hand’s of the enemy. Mercy!!

There is plenty more out there. Please pray for our brothers and sister who are in bondage to these type of things In the Mighy Name of Jesus the Christ!!!

Due to dealing with family issues, I have not had the opportunity to view your site these last couple of days. Sadly, I notice that in my time away, whoever DJENK23 found the time to try and discredit me, without ever knowing me, and you GCMWATCH seem all to eager to jump on that bandwagon since I did not agree with your premise about Bishop Jakes. Thats ok, we all can’t be friends huh?

When I left on Friday to deal with family issues, my feeling was one of agreement to disagree with you GCMWATCH. In life, that is necessary. It was nothing I lost sleep over. It was what it was. You had your opinion, and I had mine.

Yet, to address DJENK full-fledged attack through half-hearted research, my ministry is an open book. Unlike DJENK23, I have not hidden my name. There are links to me and various aspects of my ministry online. I have a ministry that has produced fruit. I don’t claim to have never made a mistake. I don’t claim to be all knowing or to have things I have never regretted. On the flip side, I don’t claim to be popular, nor have I tried to be.

If DJENK took the time to actually get to know me, he would know of those fruit. To answer the allegations, I travel the United States as an evangelist, having preached in over 12 states. I have served as a Presiding Bishop over an organization, WHCCI, which is a still functioning organization. Many COGIC folks feel like anything outside of COGIC is not of God… go figure. Yet, I can testify that WHCCI was a real organization, with real people, and real churches. Need some verifiable info, contact me, and I can provide it all. I am amazed that for someone who is priding themselves on facts, they didn’t take the time to actually research it.

At that time, I also served as a diocesan bishop for COGIC Intl.

I have since resigned from both fellowships as I have become disatisfied with most fellowships, and the politics that dominate them. Unlike DJENK, you can call anyone from any organization I have been part of, and my character will stand tall with almost anyone you call. I do not list the fellowships I am apart of any longer, or the positions I hold within the community anymore b/c I find that it sends the wrong message. You wouldn’t know half of what I do or am involved in if you didn’t take the time to ask, of which I can verify anything I say.

And yes, on my myspace profile, I do list Bishop Jakes as a hero. Yet, GCMWATCH, did I or did I not state in one of my first posts that I respect his ministry? I understand that you GCMWATCH do not like Bishop Jakes according to the alleged proof you have. Thats ok, thats your opinion. Honestly, I am ok with that. It doesn’t change my ministry, and it won’t change yours.

I have many people whose ministry I respect, some of whom DJENK knows, and some of whom he doesn’t. Obviously its easy to pick Jakes name out if he has a national tv ministry, along with anyone else who has a national ministry. It doesn’t take a rocket scientiest to know who Bishop Jakes if you have a TV.

Guess what though? Whoever is DJENK23, I also list Bishop G. E. Patterson and Bishop Charles Edward Blake as hero’s. I notice that he conveniently ommitted that. Oops??? Why would he do that? They were his leaders in the case of Bishop Patterson, and are his leaders in the case of Bishop Blake. Lets see what bad things he has to say about them since they are on my profile too. If DJENK knew me, he would know the person I admired the most was Bishop Blake, which was the case YEARS BEFORE he became Presiding Bishop.

I am amazed that an individual who did not take the time to get to know me have found the time to keep up with what I’m doing in ministry. If DJENK spent more time worrying about ministry as opposed to what I’m doing, maybe there might be more fruit than wondering why I have Bishop Jakes listed as a hero.

As far as you GCMWATCH, as I prayed over the weekend while away from my computer, I have come to the realization that we have different opinions. You aren’t going to change how I feel and I am not going to change how you feel. As long as your ministry is effective in leading people to Christ as is mine, thats all I’m concerned about.

I made my point and you made yours. At the end of the day, its about God. The Word of God states that we must avoid vain arguments. Therefore, I respect how you feel GMCWATCH, and ask that you respect how I feel.

So in conclusion… DJENK, I have a vague idea of who you are… but couldn’t tell you what your name is. I barely remember what you look like. Why? I don’t say that sarcastically. Because frankly, I have devoted my time to study, growing, and surroudning myself with leaders who can continue to help me to grow as a younger leader within the church. So unless somewhere along the way, you were there to encourage, or to impart a word of knowledge or wisdom to me the way real Christians friends do that I know, then no– I wouldn’t know you.

P. S.- DJENK & Anyone else who cares to know… if you want to be a man and a real christian, by all means e-mail me– you know where to find it…, after all, you made half-hearted attempt at finding any other bit of information you could about me. If you can approach me maturely, then I will answer any question you have, so you can actually be informed and not ignorant of who I am and what I do when you choose to put my name in your mouth. .

This will be my last post. I’m not going to get into a war of words about who I am. If you want to know me, I”m not that hard to find. If you have an issue with me, then follow what the bible says, and come to me. The best part is, regardless of what you do, I still love you anyway.

ahh the infamous last post….im hiding behind “djenk23″?…not really…Darryl Jenkins…its easy to find me…just like i found you…you can start with the COGIC Yahoo group….im far less COGIC than you think…i didnt have to list Charles Blake and GE Patterson as one of your heroes…anybody who followed the link to your myspace would have seen that…i didnt try to discredit you….even if i had never seen you before…your own words on your website have done that job…to have so much “theological” education and make those theologically devoid arguments let me know that either a.) you really dont know as much as you think or b.) you are purposely ignoring scripture to defend a fellow pimp…both options are not a good look…how are you overseeing anybody when it seems like you dont really know anything….didnt you say on the original iteration of your website that it was David that said “my people perish for lack of knowledge”….it seems to me that you jumping from organization to organization/creating organizations in hopes of having your name in lights is a continuation of a pattern that i saw in you that one night that you attended CH Mason…it doesnt bother me if you know me or not….dont care if you belong to COGIC or not…im not concerned with buying expensive cassocks, profiling for people and calling it “ministry”…and no, im not interested in asking you any questions because your site and myspace page have told me everything i need to know…and since the site was created by you(you own DestinyWorks Enterprises, dont you?), i dont think your words are being misrepresented…

I will be brief and I will keep it simple. Acts 17:11 the Bereans heard Paul teach and then said they would search the scripture to validate what he spoke was truth, If they did that to PAUL…then NO minister is above scrutiny. Too often in our churches especially black ones we make icons out of pastors, and too often pastors allow it. Titles don’t impress God and they don’t impress me…show me the work, keep the titles!

Are you aware that while these mega churches are buisy turning God’s people away from the Living Word, and turning them on to what thus sayeth Bishop & nem to farther what they are doing, that those Bishops, Dr’s etc… are going to lead the sheep right to the slaughter thru politics because of their carnal worldly desires. It is written. If you are truly for God’s people then come out from amongst them and be seperated.

GCMWATCH, I’m so surprised you haven’t addressed DJENK’s questionable theology. He clearly ignored coming to his brother that he has an ought with. He so easily is willing to go to every other source to express his dis-taste for me, but refuses to come to me, as he so eloquently stated. This isn’t biblical. You claim to stand for what is right, and yet you haven’t made a single comment about this. Is this the good old boys networks, where he supports how you feel, so you ignore his other area’s of wrongdoing?

TO CLARK, I agree you with about politics in the church. Yet, it is not limited to SOME megachurches, it also takes place in SOME smaller ministries too.

To Mark Stevens, if you are who I think you are, I salute you as a brother in the Kingdom. Your point was tell taken and agreed with.

Bishop McNeil, I really havent seen any “questionable theology” in Djenk’s comments. Nothing that warrants a major ecclesiastical covening of the episcopacy at least. You will have to be specific about anything unbiblical.

What other sources did he go to? He seemed to be speaking from personal experience and cited what you put on your website.

From what I see he didnt have an aught with you, just that he knew you and wanted to ensure that you didnt continue to misrepresent yourself or your intentions in this forum about TD Jakes.

i thought that your previous post was your last post?…its funny how you are trying to hide behind the Bible now after youve been throwing “stones” yourself…what is this ought that you think i have against you?…you’ve done nothing to me personally and im not angry so that scripture doesnt apply…people automatically have an ought when they express an opinion?…where else have i gone express my “distaste” for you outside of this website?…should i have an ought against you now since you’re insinuating that im running your name through the mud all over the internet?…i am simply stating my opinion based on the many iterations of your website…you were the PB of the PA diocese in COGIC International but they never put you or the PA diocese on the COGIC INTL website?…you have partnership levels which goes against James 2….are you saying that your very own website(created by you) and myspace page arent an accurate representation of the doctrine you espouse?…you’ve used all the usual pulpit pimp/sheep tactics to try and defend yourself and TD Jakes…all of these things together lead me to believe that when you “grow up”, you want to be just like them…

I agree Bishop McNeil with you on that. The smaller churches are picking it up from the mega church conferences, books, cd’s etc, due to thinking that it is God’s will for their ministry to have many many members, rich, materialistic, etc, and nothing else. I see it, and it’s not of God. Thanks for responding.

Mr. gmcwatch, i just want you to know that your site is very important to me for a number of reasons. I rented Celebration of Gospel 07, and as i was sitting watching it last night, i felt sad and could not but one song that i could enjoy. I prayed. I won’t get into detail, but i will just say that we really need to continue to pray because people actually believe that anything with the name of our Lord and Saviour attached, is of Him. Mercy!

I am saddened about this new information presented about Bishop Jakes. I have heard many things over the years about Bishop Jakes involvement in homosexuality. It is important that we protect the sheep from wolves.

On another note, I personally do know Bishop McNeil, and am saddened at the personal attacks of some. I personally experienced his ministry on more than a few occasions, and can testify that he is a good man.

Bishop McNeil as a fellow worker in the vineyard, and as a seasoned pastored of 25 years, I would encourage you not to respond because you can’t fight gossip. Your ministry speaks for itself.

GCMWATCH, I want to let you know that I enjoy many of your blogs, and I want you to to let the Lord continue to use you.

GCMWATCH, it is important to note that DJENK does not know me. To know what I am representing or misrepresenting for that matter means you must actually be acquainted with me on some level.

The crux of our relationship 3 years ago was “hi and bye.” I haven’t seen or spoken to DJENK since. I have offered DJENK an opportunity to come to me personally so that I might provide him with VERIFIABLE information to show him where he might be wrong about me. DJENK has openly addmited on your blog GCMWATCh, that he HAS NO INTENTION of getting verifiable information from me or trying to get to know me. I don’t have to insuinate that, its there for anyone to read. Because he disagreed with my opinion, he was left to try and google me to find what he feels is dirt, which is sad. He’s not going to get in contact with me, because to get in contact with me would actually constitute accountability for his statements. He doesn’t want to take the chance that he actually might be wrong about certain things he says about me.

For the record, since I have been portrayed as a “FAN” of Bishops Jakes, I never stated whether I believed Bishop Jakes was gay or not gay, or was a conduit for false homosexual theology. I simply was trying to make the point that I PERSONALLY didn’t feel there was enough evidence for me to make that judgement quite yet. I feel that sometimes, we are too quick to jump the gun.

Let it be known that I do not agree with everything BIshop Jakes does, since you feel GCMWATCH that I was “choosing my words very carefully” about him. Bishop Jakes is a known Oneness Pentecostal, where I am a Trinitarian. There are other small area’s of disagreement. Yet I respect his ministry and like CERTAIN aspects of his ministry, but that does not mean I agree with everything he does.

GCMWATCH, although you stated that you do not respect my opinion about Bishop Jakes, I still do respect your opinion although I do not agree with it.

DJENK to me is a little hypocritical. He is so staunch in trying to “expose” me theological views, or the lack their of. Yet, if he is the person whom people tell me he is, then he is still a member of COGIC. It is well known that Bishop Blake hosted an openly gay minister, Dr. Peter Gomes at his local church, West Angeles COGIC, and also ministered at his church. Not only does Dr. Peter Gomes promote this alternative lifestyle, it is known that he has a homosexual live in partner in his home.

Now how can a man so staunchly attack me for my theological views, yet submit to a Presiding Bishop who did this??? Oh, I forgot, DJENK said, “I’m not as COGIC as you think.” You can’t be submitted to an organization and seperate yourself from the Presiding Bishop. Is DJENK misrepresenting himself?

Personally, although I respect and like many aspects of Bishop Blakes ministry, just like with Bishop Jakes ministry, I do not agree with everything COGIC does. I put my faith in no man but God.

There are many issues within the body of Christ, both in the small churches and the large ones, for those ministers both well known and those not so well known.

This current train of discussion has ended. Both sides have presented enough information and people can decide who they believe. Please restrict any further comments to the content of the blog post. Any further diversions will be deleted.

The key ingredients of witchcraft are MANIPULATION and CONTROL. In my twenty-five years of ministry (five of those years serving as a Pastor), I have seen enough witchcraft operating behind the safe walls of churches than possibly any practices of witchcraft that Christians would normally ever encounter. Most of us recognize blatant elements of witchcraft and the occult and would never become involved; but what about the practices that we are unaware of just because they are done in the church? It is amazing how many self appointed “bishops” , “prophets” ,and “apostles” are in churches today. Many of these men and women function unchallenged because they have convinced the hearers that they have “a Word from God”.
It amazes me how easily saints are deceived. We hear a “new teaching” and we NEVER challenge it with the Word of God. The Bereans were so into hearing the truth of scripture that they even went back to the Word to see if the Apostle Paul was telling the truth (Acts 17:11).
Deuteronomy 18:14 (NAS) “For those nations, which you will dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.”
Acts 8:9-11 (NIV) Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is the divine power known as the Great Power.” They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic.

Jeremiah 5:23 (NIV) But these people have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away.

GCMW: While I agree that no one but God can truly call one into gospel ministry, the grandiose titles and self appointed positioning seems to be more about attention to self rather than actual service in the kingdom. It reminds me of those “spit shined” soldiers in the military who were no good once they got into the field. If Im not mistaken we are supposed to do the work of an evangelist, not talk the talk. Thanks!

Unfortunately our churches have departed from sound doctrine, especially the doctrine of Hell. We are so afraid of “insulting” people and hurting their feelings that we preach a “soft” Gospel. The Prosperity Message is a “soft” message; it is what the carnal minded person is dying to hear. Preachers that are more worried about their pocket books and wallets are scared to preach the truth. Many Pastors are afraid that their congregation will stop paying tithes, and stop giving speaker offerings if they preach the truth. Prosperity preachers will avoid subjects that will make them unpopular because that will affect their income. Keep people happy and they will support your lifestyle and lavish you with gifts. If these preachers preached against homosexuality, Government corruption, adultery, fornication, and materialism these guys (and gals) would not have a big following.

IMHO…I watched that sermon on cable recently, I think Jakes was not promoting homosexuality, he was saying people are confusing those close relationships of people of the same gender with modern day lesbianism. When Jakes referenced same sex relationships I thought he meant the same gender, not some homosexual unnatural relationship. I think he was actually implying it ‘s absurd to view those beautiful relationships as giving in to lower self or lesbian. I might be biased, because I really don’t want Jakes to be gay, I pray this is a mistake. I do believe Jakes sin is prosperity preaching. Please correct me if I’m wrong – I welcome input & understanding.

If we spent have the time debating human failure praying living right covering the 5 fold ministries and witnessing to the lost we wouldn’t have issues on this level. The church is in a horrible state and all the churches and sinners want to do is how bad the church is. Sinners need to come to CHRIST and get the crap together. The body of Christ needs to live holy because GOD is holy. By doing that, we negate destroying our witness to the world. JESUS IS STILL TO COME LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. I PRAY NONE OF YOU ARE SLIPPING

—***> SORRY FOR THE TYPO <***—- (If we took half the time we do debating human failure (which is pointless) and had been/and start praying, living right, covering the 5 fold ministries, and witnessing to the lost we wouldn’t have issues on this level. The church is in a horrible state and all the churches and sinners want to do is talk about how bad the church is. Sinners need to come to CHRIST and get their crap together. The body of Christ needs to live holy and be an example because GOD is holy. By doing that, we negate destroying our witnesses to the world. JESUS IS STILL TO COME LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. I PRAY NONE OF YOU ARE SLIPPING WHEN HE COMES.

Do not touch my annointed. Those who have put their mouths on the prophet of God, God will repay your evil and it will be passed down in your family from generation to generation. I do not agree with the HGAAA here in columbus There is definately and infiltration of homosexuality! But to try and link Bishop Jakes and Merritt to it is unfounded!

GCMW: Jakes is the first assistant bishop of HGAAA, how is he not “linked” to it? Merritt pulled out of the organization because of it. Why didnt Jakes? He’s still there. The other part of your comment is ridiculous.

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