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Its really hard to join into these conversations since invariably it becomes swamped in hyperbole. The idea that aiki makes one unbeatable is a recurring theme that leaves a sour taste in the more pragmatic. I think it is perfectly fair to ask for performance based proof and truth be told that has fallen short at least at the level of top performance fighting arts. When you say it makes you unbeatable that is exactly what is implied and beyond that it is really hard to measure.

At the risk of being told that I have no idea about aiki or IP training (also another recurring theme) there is hope if you isolate technique and pair it with certain exercises that are recognized by the lovers IP training. One of my favorite examples is the pairing of shote awase (a type of structured pushing exercise) with shomen-ate. It is really easy to see the connection between the exercise and the expression and to understand the result. Trained right you don't loose the ability in a more dynamic situation.

A couple of questions have come from this post and Demetrio's. I am quoting Peter, but Demetrio's comments fall in line. Seriously, there are good questions out there. I pushed back on a few core issues in this thread because they create confusion and are simply untrue. I am going to call some things "silly" because I am trying to express how things look when you expand the argument outside of IP, but still hold to the comments that craft the dialog in IP conversations. Not wrong, just maybe not well-thought.

First, IP people don't say IP/aiki is invincible. No One. Not one. Why? Because if you are in IP training, you've come into contact with someone who has proven, without a doubt, that you are not invincible. This is more an indicator of someone who hasn't quite gotten into IP work, but is maybe inquiring about it. The reason it leaves a sour taste is that it becomes an argument thrust upon a conversation about IP - It's a false argument. There are several IP people out there in a variety of arts who are seriously powerful and interaction with their movement is something to behold and they are welcome to speak for their personal skills.

Second, IP is not magic. The fact is IP work is conceptually simple; this is actually a problem for many people who can't defend their model of movement when faced with better models of movement. This is another argument that is thrust upon IP conversations. If I were to describe any other body conditioning model in association with an athletic endeavor, everyone here, even the pragmatists, would agree. Should you practice proper running form if you play soccer? Should you strengthen your muscles if you play baseball? Of course. Do coaches argue about the "best" proper form running drills? Yep. In what analogy to another sport training methodology, would you conclude that form running makes you invincible? In another sport training model, would you conclude that body conditioning is a direct application of athletic skill? Nope. It sounds silly when viewed under a larger lens because the argument shows its distortion.

Third, there are many methods of tracking progress in internal training. You are welcome to apply what your methods of tracking progress comparatively. I just ask that you apply the same metric across aikido. To Demetrio's post I re-assert my question - if you are going to apply a sport-fight test metric to IP/Aiki, where is that metric in aikido? There isn't one. The nice thing about testing is you either apply the same test, or you don't. And it shows. Anyone who has been on Aikiweb for 2 months knows that we do nothing but excuse why aikido doesn't work in a fight. Heck, there is probably an active thread right now titled something to that effect right now. I want everyone to know how silly it is to then criticize a training model because it doesn't perform at "Olympic" quality sport-fighting levels.

There are far better arguments why (or why not) to use IP training models. There are several arts that use IP models that have a wealth of knowledge. There are individuals who cross-train in arts and can explain why one method is preferred over others. Ikeda Sensei often says something like, "big, strong, powerful people don't need martial arts. They can beat you up regular." He's right.

IP is not for everyone. The problem is it works better once you get it, which means in aikido your performance plateau becomes elevated. That's what our training is about, right? Elevating our skill. Just because [you] don't want to go down that path... What is your vision for training? Where do you want to be in 10 years? Projecting your current training model, will that get you there? What happens when your 20-something body turns into a 40-something body? Will your training model work? These are far better questions to ask of your training - the answers will tend to craft your training style. Your training style will develop your skill set. Your skill set becomes your aikido and will show who you are.

To Demetrio's post I re-assert my question - if you are going to apply a sport-fight test metric to IP/Aiki, where is that metric in aikido? There isn't one.

And there isn't one because... aikido people are scared to be put to test?

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Anyone who has been on Aikiweb for 2 months knows that we do nothing but excuse why aikido doesn't work in a fight. Heck, there is probably an active thread right now titled something to that effect right now. I want everyone to know how silly it is to then criticize a training model because it doesn't perform at "Olympic" quality sport-fighting levels.

What happens when your 20-something body turns into a 40-something body? Will your training model work?

Well, since you asked...

My twenty something body turned into a forty something body, which turned into a sixty something body, that in four months will turn into a seventy something body. So by my count, I've been employing the same training method for forty years (with modifications along the way as I discover new ways to train). My aikido abilities continue to grow, my power continues to grow even as it gets softer and more subtle and my body retains much of the suppleness I had in my youth. I would say, therefore, that yes, my training model still works.

Originally, Morihei Ueshiba's exercises, such as funakogi undo, were meant to help strengthen specific aspects of internal body movement; however, the actual physical mechanics that were meant to be activated and strengthened, are no longer part of the exercises. So, contemporary aikido practitioners are doing "empty" movement, in most cases.

Ikeda tried repeatedly to impress upon seminar attendees that the reason his ultra-efficient approach (you touch him, you're off balance. Just. Like. That.) is worth pursuing is, well, you neutralize the attack much faster. Who wouldn't want to finish off an attacker in one barely perceptible, yet quick and decisive movement?

Hiroshi Ikeda?

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Unfortunately, he has been unable to pass on his skills to those who have been attending his seminars for years, so who knows what the answer(s) are to that problem - clearly communication is one of the issues.

BTW, I enjoyed working with bigger, heavier guys at his seminar. Good way to test whether the jin skills were working. Plus, most of them had upper bodies disconnected from the lower body anyway.

The smaller people seemed to get his teaching more easily. Except the really tricky ones like instant kuzushi on a partner punching you, by simply laying your forearm on top of the partner's punching arm. I had Ikeda-sensei do it to me - I felt jin of some kind entering my arm but it was very subtle - probably because my punch sucked (not full commitment).

Certainly wasn't as decisive as the next day when I grabbed his wrist with a death grip and was thrown immediately. It was like grabbing a spinning drill bit.

i have aiki and i am pretty invincible. just the other day, i was fighting a bunch of walking dead ninja (what is the plural for ninja? is it ninji or ninny?). my aiki was unstoppable! then my lady shaking me and said "you got to stop watching martial arts movies before bed!"

The smaller people seemed to get his teaching more easily. Except the really tricky ones like instant kuzushi on a partner punching you, by simply laying your forearm on top of the partner's punching arm. I had Ikeda-sensei do it to me - I felt jin of some kind entering my arm but it was very subtle - probably because my punch sucked (not full commitment).

Certainly wasn't as decisive as the next day when I grabbed his wrist with a death grip and was thrown immediately. It was like grabbing a spinning drill bit.

Well most Japanese are shorter people, as most Aikido teachers, then most of the students in the west part of the world. That's why most of their teachings work better for shorter people. I had to make some adjustments doing certain techniques but especially the principles behind the techniques. It's weird that many of the teachers in Aikido don't seem to understand that if i get in a too low of a stance that i am actually more likely to lose my balance then if standing a bit taller which is were i actually have a perfectly balanced stance. Ridiculous situations.

Perhaps one major reason for smaller people "getting it" more easily, is mindset. They don't expect to move or control larger people by using brute muscle strength, so are more open to finding other ways. Big guys instinctively use the "Big Guns" -- their shoulder- and upper-back muscles -- which is the antithesis of the process needed for making aiki. The shoulders and upper back must be relaxed, along with the biceps and triceps muscles of the arms, in order for force to be able to travel to the point of contact unimpeded.

People accustomed to using brute strength may take longer to learn to relax their conventionally-used muscle groups, and to be open to other means of getting the job done.

Perhaps one major reason for smaller people "getting it" more easily, is mindset. They don't expect to move or control larger people by using brute muscle strength, so are more open to finding other ways. Big guys instinctively use the "Big Guns" -- their shoulder- and upper-back muscles -- which is the antithesis of the process needed for making aiki. The shoulders and upper back must be relaxed, along with the biceps and triceps muscles of the arms, in order for force to be able to travel to the point of contact unimpeded.

People accustomed to using brute strength may take longer to learn to relax their conventionally-used muscle groups, and to be open to other means of getting the job done.

Pretty much on point there.

At the Ikeda-Ledyard seminar, the small women black belts and this one particularly little man seemed to be doing good. They seemed to feel reasonably connected when I took ukemi for them, and I suspect some of them even got some jin ("aiki"? The Ikeda "make line to tailbone" stuff) working. There were some kids at the seminar too - I'm guessing 13-17 years old - but I think just about everybody took it easy on them; hard to say how much they actually "got". Hardly any adult wanted to discourage them by gripping too hard or being too heavy.

Well most Japanese are shorter people, as most Aikido teachers, then most of the students in the west part of the world. That's why most of their teachings work better for shorter people.

I guess Ikeda as a native Japanese-speaking Aikido teacher is one of the exceptions. I am 5' 8". He is taller than me and also 25 lbs. heavier.

What he was trying to teach at the seminar does not rely on the size of the practitioner, but the practitioner's ability to use his/her own body. For example, to turn your forearm into a "spinning drill bit" that throws anybody who grabs your wrist; without any visible hip movement, you would have to have a pretty strong and mobile dantien/tanden, with well developed connections along the muscle-tendon channels of the body. None of those requirements are dependent on the height or weight of the body.

Ikeda's "make line to tailbone" kuzushi ability is also not dependent on the body's height or weight. It has something to do with taking control of another person's connections using one's intent. But only those who have strong connection within their own bodies can do this consistently. Ledyard did it to me. I was only able to do the same to him because he wanted to teach me; and Budd Yuhasz had just taught me how to use ground and gravity forces. I tried it on other people afterwards at the seminar but I have a lot of work to do... I should mention Ledyard is an even bigger, heavier guy than Ikeda (albeit one who can move like a cat), and Yuhasz isn't exactly tiny either.

I guess in summary, what Ikeda can do, and thus attracts people to his seminars, relies on what IP people call Up and Down force vectors (Budd calls them Ground and Gravity) and a well connected and developed dantien. I felt bad for the seminar attendees who didn't know about Ground/Gravity; that's the bare minimum I think to get anywhere with Ikeda's stuff. Under Budd's coaching, I found it was a lot harder to use intent on another person without reverse-breathing and the dantien - pity those who don't know about that either. I got the impression Ikeda expected people to know all this stuff from previous seminars. I don't know exactly what he taught in past years, but have heard he taught sitting meditation, partner exercises for force vector stuff, etc.

With the proper internal training, what makes a smaller person able to easily move and control the structure of a much larger person, is the difference in the structure.

Internal structure means the body moves as one cohesive unit, not in sequential chains of movements. Think of the way a karate punch is processed, or a baseball is pitched: There is a specific sequence of movements, rotations and releases that uses body parts individually, step by step. By contrast, internal movement is cyclical (Yin/Yang, or In/Yo), and everything is "on" with a job to do, not waiting its turn to do "its thing." When one thing moves, EVERYTHING moves. There is no beginning or end to the power production, only a constantly changing balance of In (Yin) force and Yo (Yang) force.

A small person who moves with a unified body, will move way more efficiently than a larger person who moves in "pieces" and cannot use all of his body mass together, in a controlled way. The smaller person "has more mass" than the larger one in that context.

I guess Ikeda as a native Japanese-speaking Aikido teacher is one of the exceptions. I am 5' 8". He is taller than me and also 25 lbs. heavier.

Good for him and for you.

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What he was trying to teach at the seminar does not rely on the size of the practitioner, but the practitioner's ability to use his/her own body. For example, to turn your forearm into a "spinning drill bit" that throws anybody who grabs your wrist; without any visible hip movement, you would have to have a pretty strong and mobile dantien/tanden, with well developed connections along the muscle-tendon channels of the body. None of those requirements are dependent on the height or weight of the body.

Something completely useful for a change.

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Ikeda's "make line to tailbone" kuzushi ability is also not dependent on the body's height or weight. It has something to do with taking control of another person's connections using one's intent. But only those who have strong connection within their own bodies can do this consistently. Ledyard did it to me. I was only able to do the same to him because he wanted to teach me; and Budd Yuhasz had just taught me how to use ground and gravity forces. I tried it on other people afterwards at the seminar but I have a lot of work to do... I should mention Ledyard is an even bigger, heavier guy than Ikeda (albeit one who can move like a cat), and Yuhasz isn't exactly tiny either.

Well that is common sense. I have never understood those people who say "Just work on it and you will get it eventually.", not if you don't teach how and what to do and by example if needed. I watched several videos of theirs on youtube, good stuff in general.

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I guess in summary, what Ikeda can do, and thus attracts people to his seminars, relies on what IP people call Up and Down force vectors (Budd calls them Ground and Gravity) and a well connected and developed dantien. I felt bad for the seminar attendees who didn't know about Ground/Gravity; that's the bare minimum I think to get anywhere with Ikeda's stuff. Under Budd's coaching, I found it was a lot harder to use intent on another person without reverse-breathing and the dantien - pity those who don't know about that either. I got the impression Ikeda expected people to know all this stuff from previous seminars. I don't know exactly what he taught in past years, but have heard he taught sitting meditation, partner exercises for force vector stuff, etc.

Sounds good that internal training is getting much needed recognition from high ranking instructors.

The Aikido scene looks more interesting now than it did when I first tried it back in the late 1990s. Mike Sigman was starting to teach IS workshops. I think he mentioned Ikeda as one specific high-ranking Aikido teacher who had IS skills already... in the 1990s.

These days we have the likes of Ikeda, Ledyard, Harden traveling around teaching internal stuff to Aikidoka.

Ellis Amdur created Taikyoku Aikido (a 6H-driven style of Aikido) for certain Aikidoka, who then turned it into Taikyoku Budo and abandoned Aikido altogether. I could see why they went in a different direction - some 6H stuff is just easier to learn and apply in a more grappling/wrestling oriented setting than in the traditional Aikido setting with the cultural trapping; because you have a bigger shared area of contact.

If you're a big guy, say 6' 3", 250lbs, it is not impossible for you to learn how to use Up/Down forces, reverse breathing, etc. - the fundamentals that you need for IP or 6H. You just might have to devote more time to standing practice than a smaller person. Standing at least 10 min. a day, training your upper body to stop working so much would go a long way to connecting your upper body to your lower body. One common advice is to focus on relaxing the shoulders when they start getting sore, but I find that pretty useless - not as effective as bringing Up force out to the hands, and maybe mixing in some Down force: that reduces the soreness much more reliably. Anyway, standing practice is one practice IP and 6H folks alike seem to agree on as essential.

My twenty something body turned into a forty something body, which turned into a sixty something body, that in four months will turn into a seventy something body. So by my count, I've been employing the same training method for forty years (with modifications along the way as I discover new ways to train). My aikido abilities continue to grow, my power continues to grow even as it gets softer and more subtle and my body retains much of the suppleness I had in my youth. I would say, therefore, that yes, my training model still works.

Ron

I would say so.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 03-04-2017 at 12:49 PM.
Reason: took out too for effect

The Aikido scene looks more interesting now than it did when I first tried it back in the late 1990s. Mike Sigman was starting to teach IS workshops. I think he mentioned Ikeda as one specific high-ranking Aikido teacher who had IS skills already... in the 1990s.

Interesting.

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These days we have the likes of Ikeda, Ledyard, Harden traveling around teaching internal stuff to Aikidoka.

Ellis Amdur created Taikyoku Aikido (a 6H-driven style of Aikido) for certain Aikidoka, who then turned it into Taikyoku Budo and abandoned Aikido altogether. I could see why they went in a different direction - some 6H stuff is just easier to learn and apply in a more grappling/wrestling oriented setting than in the traditional Aikido setting with the cultural trapping; because you have a bigger shared area of contact.

I've heard of Taikyoku, i heaven't looked at the video yet though. As far as for the grappling/wrestling environment, you can do the same things with many or most Aikido techniques, there is no actual "cultural trapping", that's mostly present only when Japanese instructors don't wan't to explain something in matters of principals rather then "you have to do i it like this". I am amazed at the fact that even many non-Japanese instructors have this approach.

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If you're a big guy, say 6' 3", 250lbs, it is not impossible for you to learn how to use Up/Down forces, reverse breathing, etc. - the fundamentals that you need for IP or 6H. You just might have to devote more time to standing practice than a smaller person. Standing at least 10 min. a day, training your upper body to stop working so much would go a long way to connecting your upper body to your lower body. One common advice is to focus on relaxing the shoulders when they start getting sore, but I find that pretty useless - not as effective as bringing Up force out to the hands, and maybe mixing in some Down force: that reduces the soreness much more reliably.

Just 10 minutes? Yes, but this is also taught on the technical side in the regular Aikido practice, that you should always move with you whole body, not just use your hands or legs separately, always through the hips. Although i can't claim high level of knowledge in the technical department i can't say i ever felt soreness in my shoulders.

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Anyway, standing practice is one practice IP and 6H folks alike seem to agree on as essential.

And what exactly would be the difference between IP, Aiki and 6H, and what are their traits?

Just 10 minutes? Yes, but this is also taught on the technical side in the regular Aikido practice,

You practice zhan zhuang or similar standing practice in your dojo? That's interesting. How long do you guys stand in your dojo? I guess there would have to be a limit, unless your Aikido class is 3 hrs long.

I've never seen standing practice in our dojo. Aiki taiso, yes, but just standing holding a posture for 5 min. or more? Never seen it.

I started standing 5 min. and gradually increased the time. Around the 10 min. mark was when my shoulders would be sore from excessive tension and I'd be wondering if I forgot to set my timer. That was before I realized I could use Up jin to turn it off.

As for 6H and IP, well you've seen the discussion on the 6H group. I don't know any more details than you do about what they're talking about. I've tried reading the True Aiki blog but suspect the IHTBF rule applies - some things just don't make sense to me until I meet someone who can do the thing and show me how to do it. The things I do see in common are practicing holding a standing posture for time, and the concepts of Up and Down force vectors.

My twenty something body turned into a forty something body, which turned into a sixty something body, that in four months will turn into a seventy something body. So by my count, I've been employing the same training method for forty years (with modifications along the way as I discover new ways to train). My aikido abilities continue to grow, my power continues to grow even as it gets softer and more subtle and my body retains much of the suppleness I had in my youth. I would say, therefore, that yes, my training model still works.

Ron

I am glad to hear that. This is almost entirely different than my experience. I don't sleep the same way, I don't eat the same way, I don't exercise the same way, and I don't drink alcohol the same way, to name just a few things. I also watch lots of Turner Classic Movies. My point is that I train differently - mostly from evaluating what I have done and if that is getting me where I want to go. I think it is a rare thing that any endeavor you start remains the same trajectory for the duration of your experience. I have changed my training several times to better meet where I wanted to go.

I've heard of Taikyoku, i heaven't looked at the video yet though. As far as for the grappling/wrestling environment, you can do the same things with many or most Aikido techniques, there is no actual "cultural trapping", that's mostly present only when Japanese instructors don't wan't to explain something in matters of principals rather then "you have to do i it like this". I am amazed at the fact that even many non-Japanese instructors have this approach.

I don't want to misrepresent Taikyoku Budo, so I will just make the following comments about it - and I apologize for the "cultural trappings" comment if you found it offensive - I was thinking of attacks like yokomen uchi which simulate sword movement - these are not found in this system.

1. They work a lot out of this position, which I have not seen very much in Aikido:

2. You really do have to learn how to use 6H skills: Dantian usage, Ground and Gravity jin, etc. to get anywhere in Taikyoku Budo. There are some fa-jin (explosive strikes) that are part of the core (Five Themes) of the system - definitely need 6H for them. Some stuff relies on being able to manipulate "connections" inside another person's body. I haven't worked with you in person so I don't know where you are with your 6H skills and how good you are at applying them to your Aikido, but I have worked with a fair number of Aikidoka who move without 6H skill, and they outnumber the few who do.

Maybe your Aikido has all of the above features - I don't know. Just reporting what I observed in Taikyoku Budo vs. Aikido.

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Igor Vojnović wrote:

Just 10 minutes? Yes, but this is also taught on the technical side in the regular Aikido practice, that you should always move with you whole body, not just use your hands or legs separately, always through the hips. Although i can't claim high level of knowledge in the technical department i can't say i ever felt soreness in my shoulders.

I don't believe regular Aikido practice alone helps big guys relax their upper bodies and not rely on upper-body strength to execute Aikido, based on working with big guys in Aikido dojos. I am not skilled at 6H stuff at all, but after instruction from Mike and Budd, and practicing 6H stuff on my own, I can feel when my partner's upper body is moving separately from the lower body. Of course my comments are based on my own experience.

The instructional course 'Integrated Strength", written by a guy who trained with Dan Harden, recommended 10 min. of zhan zhuang practice, for those new to zhan zhuang. As one progresses the practice time increases - at least in the book. I don't follow the book anymore because I recently met a Taijiquan teacher, and I'll leave it up to him to decide how much time I need to stand in zhan zhuang.

If you have practiced zhan zhuang for at least 10 min. without your shoulders getting sore, you could just be ahead of me in your 6H skill level.

No, sorry for being unspecific, what i mean't was that connecting your upper body to your lower body, no body movement distortion, is something that is supposed to be taught at the basic physical/external/technical level as well.

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As for 6H and IP, well you've seen the discussion on the 6H group. I don't know any more details than you do about what they're talking about. I've tried reading the True Aiki blog but suspect the IHTBF rule applies - some things just don't make sense to me until I meet someone who can do the thing and show me how to do it. The things I do see in common are practicing holding a standing posture for time, and the concepts of Up and Down force vectors.