I think Bhikkhu Bodhi is confused but i am not actually outraged, i just think he is wrong.

Thanks. Personally I think you are over-reading Ven Thanissaro's translation. Have you read his note here?

“‘All phenomena gain footing in the deathless.2

2. The image here derives from a standard analogy comparing the practice to the act of crossing a river. According to AN 7:15, the point where the meditator gains footing on the river bottom, but before getting up on the bank, corresponds to the attainment of non-return. To become an arahant is to go beyond the river and stand on firm ground.

Thank you for the note friend. I had not read it but having read it don't i really agree with his interpretation because Deathless is the attainment of Stream-Entry and not of the Non-Return. It could have been a quite elegant analogy but it is not.

The Sutta is very useful anyway because here we also find the word gādha

Thanks. Personally I think you are over-reading Ven Thanissaro's translation.

It is not about over-reading or how i interpret the Dhamma but rather about finding the better translation. I am sure most wise people will agree that culmination and the ground are quite different in meaning. Hence discerning what is rightfully spoken from what is a misrepresentation of the Tathagata should be in everyone's interest, if not then what are we doing here.

I only declare annihilation of suffering, i declare annihilation of the supporting conditions for suffering, i do not declare annihilation of the basis that is unaffected by the uprooting of suffering, i do not declare the annihilation of the unconditioned.

You are also being very rude and obviously have contributed with nothing but abuse and unsubstantiated claims to this thread.

Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

Friend if asked to provide scriptural support for anything merging with the Deathless would you be able to provide anything but the old translation by BB which he himself has since changed?

Friend do you not think that things merging with the Deathless would constitute conceiving things about Nibbana?

"He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.

given that Nibbana and the Deathless share meaning;

“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless.

Furthermore do you not think that it would make Deathless either conditioned by merging or changing as in before merging and after merging?

How i understand the meaning of Deathless? I understand the term to essentially have the Non-made as it's referrent but being used differently than the term non-made. Used differently because it seems that the term was around before the Buddha used it but it's meaning was unclear since it remained unattained. However it's existence was being postulated as a persistently Deathless element of reality. What makes me believe that the term was around is that when Sariputta attained it and met Moggalanna prior to their ordination and before Moggalanna had heard the Dhamma he asked Sariputta whether he had attained it, also the nature of the discourse of AN10.58 which is given as an answer to questions of people from other sects suggests that the term was around outside of Buddhist circles.

My interest in this Sutta stems from disagreement with views expressed by Bhikkhu Bodhi on several points and pertaining to the attainment of the path and in particular. Also "All dhammas culminate in the Deathless" it just seems non-sensical to me, i would go along with discernment culminating in the Deathless but all Dhammas, that just doesn't make sense.

Thank you rigthviewftw. Sorry for the delayed reply.

As I mentioned earlier, in my opinion, the translation of amatogadhā (amata-ogadhā) as 'footing in the deathless' is not correct and doesn't make sense in this or other suttas where it appears. The translation 'footing' would necessitate the Pali term being gādha which is derived from the verbal root gādh, meaning 'to stand on firm ground' etc.

Gadha is derived from the verbal root gāh which means plunge, immerse. When combined with o (= ava), it means 'plunge into'. In the other sutta you reference, SN 48.44, Ven. Sariputta says that the development and cultivation of the five faculties culminate (plunge into) in the deathless.

I have known, seen, understood, realized, and experienced this with wisdom. I have no doubts or uncertainties that the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom, when developed and cultivated, culminate, finish, and end in the deathless.”

SN 48.44 points to a way to understand AN 10:58. Buddha instructs the monks that if other sectarians should ask kim ogadhā sabbe dhammā 'What do all dhammas plunge into (culminate in)?', they should answer amatogadhā sabbe dhammā, 'All dhammas plunge into (culminate in) the deathess'. I would suggest that all dhammas here means cultivated awakening factors (Buddha's Dhamma) which plunge into the deathless, just as the cultivated five faculties plunge into the deathless in SN 48:44.

There is a similar theme in some of the earlier questions in AN 10:58, e.g. kimogadhā sabbe dhammā, 'What is the essence of all dhammas?' which should be answered vimuttisārā sabbe dhammā, 'Freedom is the essence of all dhammas' (= cultivated awakening factors).

As you say, the deathless was talked about before Buddha, and in SN 48:44 Ven. Sāriputta testifies that the deathless has been plunged into through cultivating the five faculties. He experiences the deathless, here and now. Asmimāna has been dispelled and there is longer any notion of an 'I' in the past, present or future, in short there is 'no one' to die. In the Ratanasutta, Sn 2,1, Buddha talks about the joy and freedom of the deathless

With steadfast mind, applying themselves thoroughly in the Dispensation of Gotama, free of passion, they have attained to that which should be attained. And plunging into deathlessness, they enjoyed the Peace (Nibbāna) in absolute freedom.

.
It should be noted that the verbal form vigayha 'plunging into' in the Ratana Sutta shares the same verbal root, gāh, as ogadha.

In effect, the 'deathless' equates to 'nibbana with residue'. The last Q & A in AN 10:58 kimpariyosanā sabbe dhammā, 'What is the final end of all dhammas (cultivated awakening factors)?' to be answered with nibbānapariyosanā sabbe dhammā, 'The complete ending of all dhammas (cultivated awakening factors) is nibbāna'. It can be surmised this answer refers to 'nibbana without residue'.

To be honest, I don't see AN 10:58 as an especially important sutta, unless one is likely to meet followers of other sects who ask these particular questions. If so, you have the ready made answers. There are many suttas like this which may be interesting, but not are readily applicable to practice or are even inspiring.

In contrast, I find the series of short suttas in the Amata Vagga of the Anguttara, which point to the practice of kāyagatāsati as essential to realizing the deathless, very useful

Mendicants, those who haven’t cultivated mindfulness of the body haven’t cultivated the deathless.

Based on these discourses one would think that gadha is not necessarily about plunging?

I also think that one is unwarranted to make the assumption that Sabbe dhamma refers exclusively to Factors of Awakening in AN10.58 given that it is explained thus;

Sujato:
‘Reverends, all things are rooted in desire[1]. Attention produces them[2]. Contact is their origin[3]. Feeling is their meeting place[4]. Immersion is their chief[5]. Mindfulness is their ruler[6]. Wisdom is their overseer[7]. Freedom is their core[8].

When you then say

I would suggest that all dhammas here means cultivated awakening factors (Buddha's Dhamma) which plunge into the deathless, just as the cultivated five faculties plunge into the deathless in SN 48:44.

There are three problems with your interpretation, friend. #1 is just why would the Tathagata teach factors of awakening in this manner to people from other sects and define factors of Awakening as Sabbe Dhamma?

Furthermore
Take example of perception which here makes a lot of sense imo; perception is also rooted in desire[1], depends/produced of attention[2], contact as origin [3], feeling as meeting place (what is perceived and cognized is felt thus meeting place of aggregates is rightfully feeling)[4], now #5 is tricky in itself reading samādhippamukhā so i will leave it out now as it is probably to do with concentration rather than Immersion [5], mindfulness can be explained to be steering or ruling the course of the aggregates and thus perceptions [6], perceptions can be explained to be known/overseen by Wisdom [7] and i will also leave out #8 because translations also vary a lot.
However this should illustrate that the formulae does not seem to be about Factors of Enlightenment as you claim but rather the Aggregates, a claim also supported by Commentary;

According to the Commentary to AN 8.83 (which covers the first eight of the ten questions given here), "all phenomena" (sabbe dhamma) here means the five aggregates.

Therefore when you say;

I would suggest that all dhammas here means cultivated awakening factors (Buddha's Dhamma) which plunge into the deathless, just as the cultivated five faculties plunge into the deathless in SN 48:44.

You need to make an exceptionally good case for it, especially given that aggregates do not plunge into Deathless and that is obviously very wrong.

To be honest, I don't see AN 10:58 as an especially important sutta, unless one is likely to meet followers of other sects who ask these particular questions. If so, you have the ready made answers.

As i see it many Theravadins are so clueless that they might as well be from other sects at this point. And this Sutta seems to describe the workings of the Aggregates in light of the Faculties and the context of the Path so it is very interesting for that reason.

Lastly i will mention that when you say;

In effect, the 'deathless' equates to 'nibbana with residue'.

While there is an overlap in meaning of Deathless and Nibbana when both are taken as destruction of craving, Nibbana with residue refers in particular to the state of an Arahant and deathless doesn't.

I spent a lot of time trying to explain the sutta, but I don't think you properly read what I wrote. I explained that the verbal root for gādhati is gādh meaning 'to stand on firm ground' whereas the verbal root for (o)gadha is gāh meaning to 'plunge, immerse'.

I also think that one is unwarranted to make the assumption that Sabbe dhamma refers exclusively to Five Spiritual Faculties in AN10.58 given that it is explained thus;

I did not state that the five faculties refer exclusively to sabbe dhamma. I said awakening factors, meaning the 37 awakening factors. I should have been more precise.

Sujato:
‘Reverends, all things are rooted in desire[1]. Attention produces them[2]. Contact is their origin[3]. Feeling is their meeting place[4]. Immersion is their chief[5]. Mindfulness is their ruler[6]. Wisdom is their overseer[7]. Freedom is their core[8].

What I have concluded about sabbe dhamma does not contradict the previous eight points, remembering that these are specific answers for specific questions from other sectarians.

According to the Commentary to AN 8.83 (which covers the first eight of the ten questions given here), "all phenomena" (sabbe dhamma) here means the five aggregates.

I don't necessarily agree with all commentarial explanations - some are useful, some are not (they can quite dumbed down at times with no real insight into the Dhamma commented on).

aggregates do not plunge into Deathless and that is obviously very wrong.

At least three suttas, AN 10:58, SN 48:44 and Sn 2.1 use the terminology 'plunging into the deathless'. I have shown clearly the verbal root gāh is the basis for verbal terms in these suttas with the meaning 'plunge into'.

'Plunging into the deathless' is a descriptive phrase. The deathless is realized when the mind has knowledge of full release. It can be said that it is like 'immersion in the deathess' because freedom from craving and knowledge of no 'I' is always there.

While there is an overlap in meaning of Deathless and Nibbana when both are taken as destruction of craving, Nibbana with residue refers in particular to the state of an Arahant and deathless doesn't.

I spent a lot of time trying to explain the sutta, but I don't think you properly read what I wrote. I explained that the verbal root for gādhati is gādh meaning 'to stand on firm ground' whereas the verbal root for (o)gadha is gāh meaning to 'plunge, immerse'.

Friend as i understood you claim that gadha is derived from gah which you say means to immerse or plunge into and it has the same meaning as vighaya. However you did not actually address the DN11 and an7.15 in reference to the gadha therein afaik.

What I have concluded about sabbe dhamma does not contradict the previous eight points, remembering that these are specific answers for specific questions from other sectarians.

According to the Commentary to AN 8.83 (which covers the first eight of the ten questions given here), "all phenomena" (sabbe dhamma) here means the five aggregates.

I don't necessarily agree with all commentarial explanations - some are useful, some are not.

I do no think that Factors of Enlightenment fit here at all and I would like to know how you rationalize Sabbe Dhamma to be Factors of Enlightenment and why they are taught in this way and what it all means.

Furthermore, friend, it is imo presumptuous to abandon commentary on a whim just because some commentary might be wrong and without properly analyzing it as you seem to be eager to do. That is the instruction.

aggregates do not plunge into Deathless and that is obviously very wrong.

At least three suttas, AN 10:58, SN 48:44 and Sn 2.1 use the terminology 'plunging into the deathless'. I have shown clearly the verbal root gāh is the basis for verbal terms in these suttas with the meaning 'plunge into'.

Now if AN10.58 is taken to be referring to Aggregates they definitely do not plunge into the Deathless because the 8FNP leads to cessation of aggregates and by means of cessation the 3rd Noble Truth is realized and that which ceases does not plunge into anything. It is extremely unlikely imo that the commentators would be able to maintain orthodoxy having read "plunges into Deathless" and assumed the statement to refer to the Aggregates.

A statement of anything plunging into Deathless is quite problematic for the reason that Deathless is realized when everything (conditioned (all that is Sankhaara-dukkhataa)) ceases so per definition there is no thing that can plunge into the Deathless, yet conventionally it is said that the being that realizes cessation of sankhra attains the Deathless because it is he who realizes Extinguishing and not another.

Furthermore as i already cited this is supported by this excerpt;

"He perceives Nibbana as Nibbana.[7] Perceiving Nibbana as Nibbana, he conceives things about Nibbana, he conceives things in Nibbana, he conceives things coming out of Nibbana, he conceives Nibbana as 'mine,' he delights in Nibbana. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.

This is very important, the Unconditioned is not realized by the conditioned merging into it or merging with it but when the conditioned ceased and is not, as that is not the unconditioned, unarisen, unaffected is.

Nibbana here can be explained to be same as Deathless thus;

He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’

So mind is directed towards the Unconditioned by stilling sankhara-dukkhata and attaining cessation.

Two of these Sutta AN10.58 and SN 48:44 are being disputed in this exact thread and there is obviously no consensus among the translators on the term gadha therein and as for Sn2.1 the term there is not gadha it is vighaya and it is not universally translated as plunging, ie Piyadassi Thera has it as encountering. While i understand that you claim vighaya to mean the same thing as gadha because of discourses dn11 and an7.15 as well as the controversy surrounding the translations i do not take your word for it friend. Also respecfully friend, am also not willing to dismiss what seems to me to be a completely reasonably interpretation given in the commentaries, not based on what a person on the internet says without being presented with a very convincing case.

While there is an overlap in meaning of Deathless and Nibbana when both are taken as destruction of craving, Nibbana with residue refers in particular to the state of an Arahant and deathless doesn't.

Please explain your reasoning for this statement

I made a mistake saying both refer to the destruction of craving, what i meant was destruction of cankers.

“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”

The easiest way to show that it is wrong to equate Deathless with "Nibbana with residue" is pointing out that Sariputta and Moggalanna attained Deathless prior to becoming Arahants whilst Nibbana with residue refers specifically to the cankerless state of an Arahant sometimes called khiinaasava.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed,

Therefore having attained the former they did not attain the latter.

With the realization of cessation of the Aggregates one attains knowledge of destruction of cankers but this in itself does not guarantee that cankers are immediately destroyed even tho their removal has been initiated and to that extent destruction [the Deathless] has been attained.

If i recall correctly Ven. Nyananada was talking about plunging into Nibbana and if i recall correctly the reference was given as an analogy to convey the sense of relief attained by plunging into cool water being likened to full-blown escape from suffering and attainment of ultimate peace known to a stream-enterer. To me this does not go beyond the liminations of an analogy and is definitely not a statement to be cited as evidence of anything actually plunging into or merging or into nibbana. Frankly if someone was insisting on Aggregates merging with or into Nibbana i would consider them heretics.