I was going to make a thread about this in miscellaneous a few days ago, but opted not to. I now regret that decision, as the NAC must still be considered in the company of actual national quiz bowl tournaments. Maybe next year...I see Anchorage in that schedule. Has Questions Unlimited broken into Alaska?

rpond wrote:as the NAC must still be considered in the company of actual national quiz bowl tournaments.

Um, no?

In context, what he's saying is "I regret that [I didn't make the NAC thread in miscellaneous] [because the thread that another poster made being in THIS subforum means that] the NAC must still be considered..."

rpond wrote:I was going to make a thread about this in miscellaneous a few days ago, but opted not to. I now regret that decision, as the NAC must still be considered in the company of actual national quiz bowl tournaments. Maybe next year...I see Anchorage in that schedule. Has Questions Unlimited broken into Alaska?

No way of knowing. Before we discontinued going to NAC, I suggested to Chip and/or Jason that they put states into these postings, as it's impossible to scout opponents or indeed know anything about them. The best he ever did was to differentiate between the multiple St. Joseph's.

At any rate, I count 44 schools (there are 50-something teams overall, and that isn't even counting the middle school competition) at the DC site. New York leads the pack with fourteen, Pennsylvania has twelve, and New Jersey is in a distant third with four. There are two schools from Oklahoma and they face each other in the second time slot on Saturday.

Robert PondKings Park '10Stony Brook '14Wandering hobo '??

Anonymous wrote:naqt is much worse than plagiarism could ever hope to be

I want to preface this by saying that I'm not picking on these teams specifically, but rather using them to illustrate a point because I recognize them as from my region.Chatham has attended six buzzer tournaments this season; they have brought 2 or more teams four times. Those B teams have gone 0-8, 0-7, 1-5, and 3-4.High Tech has attended two buzzer tournaments this season; they brought multiple teams each time. Their B team went 1-5 at PHSAT and 2-4 at NJ states.Both Chatham B and High Tech B are competing at NAC. Who the is Chip kidding pretending a team still needs something other than a large check made out in his name in order to qualify for NAC?

Moving Day wrote:I'd be very interested to see the Conway Christian players, coach, and family compare their experience at NAC to their experience at MSNCT.

Same statement now applies to Danville Bate... Considering that I'm from that area originally, I'd *LOVE* to know how Collinsville Middle School qualified, considering this is the first I've ever heard of them having any sort of quizbowl/scholastic bowl/ academic team...

posts stats when he pleases! Ask someone from Horace Greeley if you know anyone from their team, they probably made finals (or got close).EDIT: It appears St. Pius X won the JV title:http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news ... ew-orleansI'd like to know how they rose over $9,000 in less than one month.

Robert PondKings Park '10Stony Brook '14Wandering hobo '??

Anonymous wrote:naqt is much worse than plagiarism could ever hope to be

FYI, i searched NAC on FB posts and found this. "So, the record for Raider Quiz Bowl in New Orleans:Varsity - undefeated, going to Chicago for national titleJV - undefeated, going to ChicagoCoaches' team - undefeated, but I need to wait for the end of the question."This was posted by the coach at William Henry Harrison HS in Lafayette Indiana. Anyone have any knowledge of their team?

Why doesn't anybody tell Harrison that they should be embarrassed with themselves for this nonsense on the rare occasions they do show up to real tournaments and lose to the actual national contenders.

Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

Sure but that doesn't mean people can't tell them when they show up and get raped by Dunbar and Dorman and win 3 games that maybe they actually aren't a national title contender and should stop deluding themselves about this horrible, worthless event. I encourage anybody from Harrison to come defend themselves here.

Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:Why doesn't anybody tell Harrison that they should be embarrassed with themselves for this nonsense on the rare occasions they do show up to real tournaments and lose to the actual national contenders.

I mean, technically its the national championship of , so its not a dishonest statement. On a more serious note, I believe the subject of Chip vs. pyramidal has been discussed with Harrison multiple times. I don't think that Mrs. Schneider will budge from her support of Chip. Obviously, these are both unsurprising and uninformative statements, so at this point I should come up with a useful point or get out.

Despite their avowed preference for the Four-Quarter format and Chip, Harrison attends almost every single pyramidal tournament run in the state of Indiana with multiple teams, and drove up a couple of students to South Bend for tryouts for the Indiana NASAT team. Thus we see that while Harrison has a preference that most on this board find distasteful at best, unlike many such teams they are not against pyramidal quizbowl. I'm going to argue that actions that alienate Harrison from pyramidal quizbowl are detrimental to the continued positive growth of Indiana quizbowl.

Before I launch into my argument, however, I would like to mention that Indiana quizbowl is in a bit of a slump. Harrison is down. St. Joe's is way down. Penn's only tournament appearance occurred without their best player (who may be the second best player in the state). Even Culver's star Andrew Van Duyn, who I hear did exceedingly well at the NHBB, could not lead his team to the playoffs of HSNCT. The peak of Indiana quizbowl, in my opinion, occurred in 2006. I have mostly memories and very little data, since no Indiana team attended HSNCT or NSC that year. 2006 St. Joe's had a team filled with excellent players, and yet was the fourth best team in their league behind Washington, Penn, and Culver. Washington had, I believe, the best player in the state, a guy whose name now escapes me, while Penn 2006 followed more of a "team" concept. Culver had its last captain patient enough to not have a 1:1 P:N ratio. And yet none of those could hold a candle to Harrison, who only lost NAQT states due to a bad game in the single-elim playoffs - in the prelims, they were averaging 445 ppg. For something perhaps more convincing of worth: in the Midwest Championship that year, Harrison would take 1 of 3 from a DCC team that would finish 4th at HSNCT and 5th (?) at NSC. 2007 would see a decline, as all teams besides Harrison were hit hard by graduation. This decline has continued until hitting a low this year.

The first way that alienating Harrison would hurt Indiana is by reducing the number of competitive teams in attendance at pyramidal tournaments. Currently, the teams that are interested in playing multiple pyramidal tournaments each year are Culver, St. Joseph's, Harrison, North White, North Miami, Pioneer, and Penn. North White, North Miami, and Pioneer are all small schools that have seen an improvement since their first tournaments but are still fairly weak. Penn is fairly inconsistent about coming to tournaments due to the overwhelming bureaucracy of the South Bend Public Schools (I believe that they have to have to have transportation requests in several months ahead of time). For tournaments that don't draw out of state teams, then, alienating Harrison means alienating competition.

The more important reason that alienating Harrison would hurt Indiana quizbowl is that such a move would effectively close off two thirds of the state. Of the teams that attend pyramidal tournaments mentioned above, only Harrison hails from the southern 2/3rds of the state. Moreover, Harrison has perhaps the most significant voice in that part of the state. Right now, their stance is one of "pyramidal is alright, but we prefer this". Alienating Harrison would change that voice to "pyramidal is not worth the effort", effectively eliminating any hope of getting central/southern teams to do pyramidal. This is fairly crucial - this year saw the return of Indianapolis area schools (Perry Meridian, Hamilton Southeastern, Carmel, and if they could understand time zones Ben Davis) to a pyramidal tournament (Rotary State) for the first time since Blessman introduced the concept to the state seven years ago, creating some hope that perhaps pyramidal does have a future in Indiana.

This is not me saying "stop bashing Harrison". It is a mixture of an explanation for why advocates of pyramidal quizbowl in Indiana would not continue to press the issue with Harrison, and a hope that no one from Harrison actually responds to Charlie's challenge. While I don't disagree with the underlying thoughts behind Charlie's statement, an argument between a team as entrenched as Harrison and a personality as abrasive Charlie will not end positively for anyone.

tldr: Yes, Indiana people know about Harrison, and have tried fruitlessly to convert them. However, they do continue to play pyramidal tournaments. Because of the dearth of competitive teams in Indiana and the influence that Harrison wields over central Indiana, it would be unwise to discourage them from doing so in the future.

evilmonkey wrote:On a more serious note, I believe the subject of Chip vs. pyramidal has been discussed with Harrison multiple times. I don't think that Mrs. Schneider will budge from her support of Chip.

Actually, it's a little deeper than that. Coach Schneider believes strongly in her position. She thinks QUnlimited allows girls to show their strengths in English and Literature better. (In fact, she very much likes vocabulary-based questions such as anagrams and synonyms because of this. The fact that such questions are non-pyramidal is not as important.)

When Harrison first started in Indiana Quiz Bowl, they were pushovers. Coach Schneider built them into a formidable team that has won four state championships, which is four more than my team, St. Joseph's. I'm not 100% sure this analogy is correct, but I believe Harrison is to Purdue University as State College is to Penn State. Bryce is right that they attend every Indiana tournament, usually with multiple teams, so they're not averse to NAQT. But the fact that they've had considerable success at NAC, in fact winning it in '06, makes it a MUCH harder sell to persuade them away. Same with Zionsville, which won last year.

evilmonkey wrote:Before I launch into my argument, however, I would like to mention that Indiana quizbowl is in a bit of a slump. Harrison is down. St. Joe's is way down... This decline has continued until hitting a low this year.

Until next year, when St. Joe will probably be down further :/ Although we finished 5-5 at HSNCT, we didn't face any team with a better record than 7-3 in the prelims. This year went south when the second-best player (and only lit and art expert) "retired" to concentrate on her photography. She won several national awards, including one the same weekend as Atlanta.

evilmonkey wrote:The first way that alienating Harrison would hurt Indiana is by reducing the number of competitive teams in attendance at pyramidal tournaments. Currently, the teams that are interested in playing multiple pyramidal tournaments each year are Culver, St. Joseph's, Harrison, North White, North Miami, Pioneer, and Penn. North White, North Miami, and Pioneer are all small schools that have seen an improvement since their first tournaments but are still fairly weak. Penn is fairly inconsistent about coming to tournaments due to the overwhelming bureaucracy of the South Bend Public Schools (I believe that they have to have to have transportation requests in several months ahead of time). For tournaments that don't draw out of state teams, then, alienating Harrison means alienating competition.

Bryce is being genererous here. Many tourneys have consisted solely of Culver, St. Joseph's, Harrison, and the occasional other Indiana school. DCC has probably played more games in Indiana NAQT tourneys than all other Indiana schools combined.

evilmonkey wrote:The more important reason that alienating Harrison would hurt Indiana quizbowl is that such a move would effectively close off two thirds of the state. Of the teams that attend pyramidal tournaments mentioned above, only Harrison hails from the southern 2/3rds of the state. Moreover, Harrison has perhaps the most significant voice in that part of the state. Right now, their stance is one of "pyramidal is alright, but we prefer this".

Technically, Harrison is in the middle third of the state, but it might as well be the southern half, since there are no quiz bowl leagues south of Indianapolis. Bryce is right about their influence though.

I can't see why any rational team would choose the NAC's ethically questionable antics over good quizbowl if they preferred a tournament that fairly measured academic knowledge and recall. I can, however, see why a self-interested team that prefers winning and a chance at a shiny plastic trophy would do so.

Even factoring in the capriciousness of , they have a better chance of winning more matches there than at other national tournaments, much less "qualifying" for a national tournament in the first place. Paradoxically, as the average quality of NAC teams declines, the incentives for above average teams to attend the NAC increase, assuming all they care about is winning and that improved ability does help somewhat at NAC.

I suspect a number of schools still attend the NAC because they don't really know any better, but that number's declining as good quizbowl continues to spread (the geographic strongholds of the NAC are fascinating and I would love to hear why it attracts so many schools from Gulf Coast area, besides the NO location). Instead, the NAC is becoming increasingly populated by teams like Harrison that know full well there are better, fairer formats out there (although it's unclear if they know about the history of NAC plagiarism and favoritism). They simply prefer to embrace the NAC as they have a much better chance of winning a shiny trophy, either by beating teams that are likely better than them on the wacky format or playing against a weaker field.

So are we risking alienating schools like Harrison by pointing this out? Perhaps. But I think we run a greater risk by not pointing out the major issues with the NAC in terms of fairness, professionalism, and question quality. Hiding the argument under the red herring of 4-quarter vs. 20tu debates just obfuscates the major issues at stake here; it's not simply a matter of different format preferences but rather a fundamental clash between what the competition is over in the first place ( and Fortuna's favor for one, actual knowledge in the other). Outside observers, potential new teams, and current teams who have to make their most expensive financial commitment of their season should be aware of what they're choosing if they choose the NAC.

As far as what Indiana should do, is there a reason for the low overall participation of schools in Indiana in all forms of quizbowl (even bad)? Compared to the busy Ohio and Illinois circuits, Indiana seems a bit of an anomaly. It may be easier to build new teams that start out playing good quizbowl than to try to get the others to change.

Ben Dillon wrote:Actually, it's a little deeper than that. Coach Schneider believes strongly in her position. She thinks QUnlimited allows girls to show their strengths in English and Literature better. (In fact, she very much likes vocabulary-based questions such as anagrams and synonyms because of this. The fact that such questions are non-pyramidal is not as important.)

The state is undergoing a (excruciatingly?) slow evolution toward modern quiz bowl. When the state tournament was started in '97, it was organized by the Indy-based league and immediately gravitated toward Chip. He even hosted the '98 state finals. The South Bend-based league (second-largest) used the same format and at least one team -- St. Joseph's -- was already in the habit of attending NAC every year. Indiana's attendance at NAC started to increase rapidly from there.

St. Joseph's was a nearly twenty-year supporter of NAC. I had built up a decent working relationship with Chip, to the point that he accepted most of my sweeping reworking of the QU rules and had asked my advice on several rules changes. (I believe I still have a cordial relationship with Chip, though it's certainly cooled. I probably have a better relationship with Jason Russell.) The highest we finished was 5th place the year before Harrison won it all, getting knocked out by the Chaska team that featured Andrew Watkins, iirc. By then, though, I had noticed the downturn in talented teams at NAC, i.e. whatever happened to the Dormans and Maggie Walkers, etc, who used to compete at this tournament? St. Joseph's finally broke from NAC three years ago, after one too many hoses (Name this thing -- oh wait, we really meant name this person -- sorry about that, St. Joe captain!)

St. Joe probably would've broken with QU/NAC sooner or later, but the appearance of Phil Blessman on the scene was the biggest catalyst for change. He singlehandedly doubled, then tripled, the number of tournaments in the state. And these tournaments didn't funnel toward QU or even feature QU questions. They upped the bar.

Today, most schools in Indiana still feature Quiz Bowl in its nonpyramidal infancy. (One conference in particular actually sends out all the questions for players to study at the beginning of the season.) It's going to be awhile before we catch up to the rest of the nation. In the meantime, as the default leader of the state, I have to try to keep a working relationship with coaches who run the gamut from Coach Schneider to Coach Blessman.

Ben Dillon wrote:Actually, it's a little deeper than that. Coach Schneider believes strongly in her position. She thinks QUnlimited allows girls to show their strengths in English and Literature better. (In fact, she very much likes vocabulary-based questions such as anagrams and synonyms because of this. The fact that such questions are non-pyramidal is not as important.)

Ben Dillon wrote:Actually, it's a little deeper than that. Coach Schneider believes strongly in her position. She thinks QUnlimited allows girls to show their strengths in English and Literature better. (In fact, she very much likes vocabulary-based questions such as anagrams and synonyms because of this. The fact that such questions are non-pyramidal is not as important.)

Ohhhhh, Jesus. I am facepalming so hard at this.

Thought some of you might have that reaction.

I would hope everyone would have that reaction because it's such a stupid assertion.

Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:Why don't you tell this person she is a phenomenal idiot then? Because you're scared?

This was already said above, but I'll rehash the argument. In Indiana, we've seen pyramidal quizbowl grow, slowly but surely, over the past 7 years. As mentioned earlier, said person has considerable influence over whether pyramidal quizbowl continues to spread. Right now, she is allowing pyramidal quizbowl to take root, though not actively supporting it. The probability of a negative reaction to further discussions of the subject is greater than the probability of her conversion (and the benefits that are entailed). Thus, the optimal strategy is to not piss off the people who can stop the spread of pyramidal quizbowl in Indiana.

Did Indiana quizbowl really just register as more than a blip on the national radar, even if it's negative? Let me make a few comments:

1. Northern Indiana is actually pretty engaged in quizbowl (good or bad), with 67 schools members of quizbowl conferences. For historical reasons, most of these conferences engage in odd schedules with teams visiting each other on school nights and then playing back-to-back jv and varsity matches. This means being a member of a 10-team conference requires teams to spend nine school nights on regular season matches plus additional night(s) for playoff match(es). Spending at least TEN dates a year playing quizbowl is something I doubt 67 Illinois schools do, so this a big commitment... to playing very little (mostly bad?) quizbowl.

2. I have to disagree with the assessment that Indiana quizbowl is in decline. Culver missed the HSNCT playoffs, but based on our Midwest finish I would argue that was a substantial surprise. I had set a goal of finishing 7-3 at Nationals, and looking at the standings, that was realistic, but we lost several games we should have won... and that's the way it goes. Andrew being the twelfth highest scorer at HSNCT bodes well for next year... I would also argue that Midwest was an amazing success for Indiana and Culver... getting that field to come to Culver was incredible, and our team played well that day against some of the best teams in the country (beating DuPont Manual, almost beating Lisle and Loyola).

3. "Good" quizbowl is on the prowl in Indiana... The Rotary State Championship, Midwest, Tippecanoe and St. Joe's Conferences using NAQT questions... The tide is starting to turn. We have gone from no "good" quizbowl in the state seven years ago (except for the on-and-off NAQT qualifier) to having four of the six annual tournaments and two of the five conferences using "good"questions. It can only keep getting better! I appreciate everybody's support in making this happen, for example by coming to read for our home tournaments and/or the Midwest Championship!

EDIT: Had messed up what "big name" we beat at Midwest... changed it to Manual...