The Scepter Shall Not Depart From Judah UNTIL…

Sometimes a whole lot of meaning is packed into one word. This is the case with the word “until,” where it appears in Genesis 49 in one of the earliest prophecies in Scripture.

Jacob, later named “Israel” (Genesis 49:2), was the grandson of Abraham, and he knew that he was about to die. So he gathered his 12 sons to bless them (verse 28) and to tell them what would “befall [them] in the last days” (verse 1). When it was Judah’s turn to be blessed, Jacob proclaimed the coming of Jesus in Israel’s last days (see also Hebrews 1:1-2, 9:26):

“Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s children shall bow down before you. Judah is a lion’s whelp; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He bows down, he lies down as a lion; and as a lion, who shall rouse him? The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people. Binding his donkey to the vine, and his donkey’s colt to the choice vine, he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes. His eyes are darker than wine, and his teeth whiter than milk” (Genesis 49:8-12).

The word “until” speaks volumes here. For many centuries, Judah’s tribe would hold onto the giving of the law and the scepter, which is defined in Strong’s Concordance as a staff of authority for ruling. However, Judah’s hold on the scepter and the law was only temporary. Shiloh (Jesus) was coming! He was to take over this scepter, and the people of God would be gathered to Him to obey Him.

“The scepter shall not depart from Judah…until Shiloh comes” =

The scepter will depart from Judah when Shiloh comes.

In David’s time, we see that God still referred to Judah as His scepter (Psalm 60:7, 108:8). Then after David and Solomon reigned, there was a split between the 10 northern tribes of Israel and the tribe of Judah, also known as the house of David (I Kings 11:29-36, 12:16-20). In 722 BC, the 10 northern tribes were defeated and captured by Assyria, and for the most part they remained scattered among the nations.

In 586 BC, Judah was also defeated and captured by Babylon. However, after Medo-Persia defeated Babylon (Isaiah 13, Daniel 5-6) in 539 BC, Cyrus the Great allowed the people of Judah to return to Jerusalem in 538 BC (Ezra 1:1-8, Isaiah 45:1-8). Zerubbabel, who led them, was from the lineage of David and appeared in the genealogies of Jesus (Matthew 1:12-13, Luke 3:27). During the next few centuries, Judah had rulers among themselves even while they were under Persia, Greece, Syria, and the Romans. By the time Jesus came, the people of Judah were submitted to the rule and the law of the Sanhedrin (e.g. John 18:31).

As Jacob prophesied, the scepter remained with Judah all the way up until Jesus came. The coming of Jesus is one of the reasons, and the greatest reason, why Judah was preserved and kept intact while the 10 tribes were not. In Revelation 5:5, it’s significant that Jesus is called “the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David” (see Genesis 49:9, quoted above).

Christian Zionism, dispensationalism, and the Hebrew Roots Movement would nearly (or outright) have us believe that the scepter has not passed from Judah to Jesus. According to these movements, Jesus is not the center of prophecy; national Israel is. According to these movements, the plans, purposes, and promises of God do not belong primarily to Jesus and His followers, but to national Israel and/or the Jewish people. According to these movements, Jews are God’s chosen people (whether they love Jesus or hate Him), but Jesus and His followers are not God’s chosen people (or this is true of us only in a secondary sense). According to these movements, Torah (the law of Moses) is often preeminent, being at least as important as the law of Christ and His teachings.

Jesus has come, and the scepter is in His hands. To Jesus belongs the obedience of God’s people. He is the Desire of All Nations (Haggai 2:7), the One who has gathered “together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad” (John 11:52), and the One who draws all people to Himself (John 12:32). He is the “Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6; 7:22).

The law, the covenant(s), and the priesthood were transferred out of Judah’s hand 2000 years ago, and there’s no handing back of the baton to Judah/Israel. All the types and shadows of the old covenant find their reality and fulfillment in Jesus. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

49 thoughts on “The Scepter Shall Not Depart From Judah UNTIL…”

“Until” is such a key word, such a rich word for true Bible Study. This “until” lines up very nicely with the “until” of Hosea 5:15 “I will go away and return to My place Until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” Of course there is no chapter division at that point so keep on reading, and I pray you would have eyes opened to true understanding of what is being prophesied.

A remnant, a tiny portion, is not the fulfillment of the promises of God to this people. If we want the fullness of the truth, if we are truly pursuing the truth, we will look at the entire prophecy. “Your brothers shall praise you, …your father’s children shall bow down before you.” The preservation of Judah for the revealing of the Messiah’s first coming is not the end of the story. Ultimately the promises of God extend to “your brothers and your father’s children” and from them out to the gentiles. Where is the apostolic heart of Paul revealed in Romans 9:1-3 in the way that you are teaching this verse. It is conspicuously absent! Against all odds and through a beautifully terrible process of breaking, God will have a nation, that will be a light to all nations, just as He said He would, physically, on this earth. The second coming has not happened yet. Zechariah chapters 12-14 have not been fulfilled, they simply have not happened, but they will.
Thanks for allowing the “opposing view.”

Chuck, to be honest, I’m having trouble understanding what you’re trying to say. Are you saying that the scepter was not passed from Judah to Jesus at His first coming, and that it would only be passed to Jesus at His second coming?

Why do you say that Paul’s heart in Romans 9:1-3 is not reflected in this post? Paul mourned over his countrymen who rejected Jesus, but he rejoiced that there was a remnant among them who were turning to Jesus (Romans 9:27-28, 11:5). Jesus is the Desire of All Nations (Haggai 2:7), and that includes national Israel, but it’s not limited to Israel (praise God). In each generation for the last 2000 years, there have been Jews who knew Jesus and Jews who didn’t know Jesus. That was true in the 1st century AD and it’s true in our own time.

We’ve gone over this before, of course, but God does have a nation that is a light to all the nations in this world. It’s a nation without political borders, spread out all over the world, and that’s a beautiful (and strategic) thing: “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light…” (I Peter 2:9). The followers of Jesus are a light to the nations because Jesus was given as a light to the nations: “…I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth” (Isaiah 49:6). Jesus told His followers in the Sermon on the Mount that they (we) are the light of the world. God hasn’t left this world in darkness, without a light, for the last 2000 years.

To ask it simply, do you believe that the scepter (Genesis 49:10) has departed from Judah and been given into the hands of Jesus, or do you believe that Judah still has it?

These discussions do get a bit convoluted at times and I am the first to admit that I am not as clear as you are in your presentation, so I appreciate that you have asked me one simple question, I like that idea and after I answer it, i will try to formulate one simple question for you to answer. (Your question)”do you believe that the scepter (Genesis 49:10) has departed from Judah and been given into the hands of Jesus, or do you believe that Judah still has it?” Jesus has the scepter, He rules and reigns, only He is worthy, but I believe He is worthy of more than just a tiny remnant of the people. I believe promises from God about a specific people group in a specific land are not types and shadows, but promises, yet to be fulfilled. Literally fulfilled “all Israel” “not needing anyone to teach them” “with the law written on their hearts” “with the law going forth from Jerusalem”, literal promises yet awaiting literal fulfillment, and they will be fulfilled, BECAUSE it is in the heart and the plan of the ONE who holds the scepter!
My turn, Zechariah 12:6-10 When in history has this promise been fulfilled?

See, if you think of “Israel” as a race of people from the lineage of Jacob then it would appear a lot of prophesy is yet unfulfilled. It would even appear as though scripture contradicts itself. But when you realize that Israel consists only of believers (if the root is holy, the entire tree is holy) then it all makes sense. Jesus is the root, and Israel is the tree, the kingdom of God, the holy people, the chosen nation. There is no room for the unbeliever in the kingdom of God, and this is because the law is written on our hearts. If the law is not in your heart, then you are cut off, which leaves only those from whom the law (and the light) comes forth. The new Jerusalem.

All those promises have been fulfilled in Jesus. Don’t make the same mistake that the Jews made at the time, when Jesus had to explain that his kingdom was not of this world.

Hallelujah! Adam, what a wonderful clear teaching on the subject! I don’t believe i’ve ever heard preached or read a teaching on this before. And amen, the impact of that one word “until” speaks volumes.

Thank you for sharing this. Actually felt like exclaiming Hallelujah out-loud as i read it! Was truly blessed by this brother…

Thank you as well, PJ, for sharing how this study blessed you. I was also shouting on the inside at times as I put this together and received insight. This prophecy, given even before the time of Moses, makes it clear that everything that was to happen in Israel’s history was to pave the way for Jesus to come and rule and receive worship from the people of God everywhere.

Was so interested in this Adam, i read a number of well known commentaries in which agree, this is one of the greatest Messianic prophecies in the bible!

Gill (source; Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible) even pointed out this is interpreted as the coming of the Messiah by many Jewish writers, both ancient and modern, and is the name of the Messiah in their Talmud.

That Jacob was given (by God) to “see” this on his death-bed is truly astounding.

Cassandra, which particular oath are you referring to? Also who, in your mind, makes up “the House of King David”? Jesus, by the way, sits on David’s throne, in fulfillment of prophecy:

“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:29-36).

And by sending Jesus and establishing His Church among all nations, God has rebuilt the fallen tabernacle of David, in fulfillment of Amos’ prophecy:

“Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: ‘After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up; so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does all these things’” (Acts 15:14-17).

Read what I said. when GOD TAKES AN OATH, IT CANNOT BE REVOKED. In other words, when GOD DECLARES that something must happen, it has to take place. So in part, something in which the author believes already happened, has not happened yet.

Cassandra – The New testament authors interpreted the old covenant prophecies in light of the new covenant. Here, James tells us the prophecy of Amos regarding the tabernacle of David has been fulfilled.

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written (Amos 9:11-12) , After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:14-17

Jesus said all power in heaven and earth is given unto me (Mat 28:18). He is now sitting on Davids throne. All the promises are fulfilled in Him. They are not future.

Chuck, again im writing down below other comments. LOL. I couldn’t locate anywhere under your comment to reply. So forgive me for sticking this down here and hope you see it. You wrote,

” Jesus has the scepter, He rules and reigns, only He is worthy, but I believe He is worthy of more than just a tiny remnant of the people”

Yes, i agree Jesus IS worthy of more then a remnant but Chuck, those who have always been the true followers have always been made up (just) a remnant, never the “whole”. A remnant who followed God by faith, under the old covenant, (see 1Kings 19: 9-14, 18) and a remnant today which follows Jesus by faith.

I get the impression you believe in the end days instead of a remnant, that all Israel (national Israel) will be included in the body of Christ. Am i wrong?

Some years ago i posted a devotion at my blog concerning the remnant of God. I would like to share it.

quote,

I have a very dear friend who makes his living by selling remnants. He buys remnants from factories at bargain prices, because the factories have no use for remnants. He sells those remnants to thirty housewives at bargain prices, because thirty housewives will gladly purchase what wealthy people would throw away. With men remnants are of no great importance. With men remnants are odd pieces, leftovers, things that must be disposed of. With men remnants are really a nuisance. But my friend looks upon them as very precious things. He only deals in remnants. He built his house with remnants. He is always looking for remnants. What other men regard as trash is his treasure.

Did you know that God is like that? He deals with a remnant. He only deals with a remnant. He is always seeking a remnant. Everything he does is for a remnant. He builds his house with a remnant. God looks upon a remnant as the greatest treasure in the world. Isaiah 1:9 – “Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.” The Apostle Paul tells us that among the fallen, depraved, lost, condemned ruins of humanity “there is a remnant according to the election of grace” (Rom. 11:5). And he assures us that the “remnant shall be saved” (Rom. 9:27).

With men a remnant is something leftover, waste material, material for which there is no plan, purpose, or intended use. With God it is exactly opposite. God’s remnant is the kernel, everything else is husk. God’s remnant is that for which all things were planned and purposed. Without that elect remnant, everything else would be useless.

*There Is A Remnant According To the Election of Grace.

*God’s Longsuffering, Goodness, and Mercy To All Men Is the Result of His Love For His Elect Remnant.

*God’s Remnant In This World Has Been, and Is Always Small.

end quote.

Amen, our Lord is worthy that all follow Him! But this is not what the Word tells us has or will transpire. The Word is clear that it will only be remnant Chuck, who stays faithful to Jesus…..who will follow the Lamb by faith.

Our views are not that far off here in this one tiny instance. The remnant that I see being left at the end of Jacob’s trouble, will only be maybe 1/3 of the Jewish population of the world, (Zechariah 13:8) but ‘all’ those who are left at the time will be saved. Ezekiel 39:22-29 speaks of the whole nation following Jesus. Jeremiah 32:40 and Daniel 9:24 are amazing promises. Isaiah 4:3 puts the remnant and the “all” together, by saying that “all those that are left” Isaiah 45:17 and 25 speak of Israel (the nation in its meaning and context of Isaiah’s time) and “all the seed.” Isaiah 60:21 again “all”, Jer. 31:34 “every man”. Ezekiel 20:40 is powerful “all the house of Israel, all of them IN THE LAND serve me.” Ezekiel 39:28, 29 “none left behind in this regathering and pouring out the Spirit upon the house of Israel. The blessing continues to the children of the remnant throughout the literal 1,000 years, Isaiah 54:13, 59:21. So I can see a coming together of the remnant that is left being the “all” of the nation that God fulfills His promise to, in the 1,000 year time, when they truly are a light to the nations.
I get the preterist argument that the grafted in branches are a nation of priests, but that is not an ultimate fulfillment of the promise to Israel the olive tree itself. We of the grafted in branches do get a partial fulfillment, we walk in a down payment, we demonstrate an “allowance” but there is yet even more glory to be given to Jesus as He sees “all Israel” saved. The olive tree itself brought to a place of national repentance and receiving the spirit of grace and supplication.

Chuck, I’m curious. You obviously feel that Israel is separate and distinct from the church, which is the followers of Christ. How do you reconcile that with Ephesians 2:12,19 which clearly says that we as followers of Christ now have citizenship in Israel?

Vincent the grafted in branches (called by some the “church”) and the olive tree (the chosen people of God, chosen not based on anything in them, but completely on the sovereign free will of God to choose whom He will) are mutually dependent on each other. I do not see them as separate, but as the scripture sees them with one coming out of and therefore a part of the other. Ephesians 2 is a beautiful section of scripture the point of which is that the grafted in branches are through grace made a part of the the chosen olive tree, the commonwealth of Israel. Far from being permanently and ultimately rejected I agree with Paul in Romans 9-11 where it is clearly stated, that we are all shut up under the mercy of God, the unbelieving Jew will one day be the believing Jew, reigning on earth for 1,000 years while those who already converted to Messiah (Jew and Gentile) will rule with Jesus in the heavenlies. Only have a minute but there are numerous scriptures to support this. Just wanted to clarify, I do not fall into the camp that sees the “church” and Israel as separate entities but mutually dependent expressions of God’s mercy on whom He will. (There is a pre-trib lie that the “church” is gone during the time of Jacob’s trouble, and the Jew gets sifted, I think that is a horrible lie and I strive against it every chance I get.)

Technically, Jesus IS Judah. “Until” does not necessarily indicate an occurrence up to a certain time and then something else happening that is different. God is saying that Judah will continue to hold the sceptre for time and eternity because Shiloh, the Lion of the tribe of Judah will come and He abides forever.

Navyguns, I believe you are correct when you say that until “does not necessarily indicate an occurrence up to a certain time and then something else happening that is different.” We can see that, for example, in Paul’s instructions to Timothy: “Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine” (I Timothy 4:13). Of course, Paul didn’t mean that once he came, Timothy should no longer engage in teaching, reading, and exhorting. In the case of Genesis 49:10, however, the genre is prophecy and there is a foretelling of a departure and a takeover. The scepter, the rule of law, would depart from Judah and be taken over by Shiloh (Jesus). It’s also prophesied elsewhere (e.g. Psalm 2, Psalm 110), that Jesus would be given authority to rule once He ascended to His Father (e.g. Daniel 7:13-14).

Adam, Jesus is from the tribe of Judah, David’s tribe. The scepter has never departed from Judah and never will, because Jesus sits eternally on the throne of David, which Christ has raised to be the throne of God by His ascension.

That’s a tough one chuck and I don’t have an answer for you, but I will say that you must always interpret less clear scripture in light of clear scripture. And the scriptures clearly state that Israel consists of believers in Christ only, since all unbelievers have been cut off.

I am not seeing what is not clear about the Zechariah 12:6-10 scripture. The point is if one of the promises of God to physical national Israel did not take place, was not accomplished, then the “One” who promised those things is unreliable, and not faithful and true. If preterism can not locate a fulfillment (and it can not) then there is a problem. My beliefs leave room for a yet future fulfillment against all odds, by a sovereign powerful God, who chose Israel just because He chose them. Zechariah 14 is when unbelieving Israel as a nation is made to see the One whom they have pierced, so at that point they become believing Israel. (Many Zechariah 14 scriptures have never happened in history either, I was being easy on you to pick the one from Zechariah 12.)

I don’t have all the answers and Zechariah is a difficult book, but I do believe that you have to look beyond physical and literal fulfillments of prophecy. Many prophecies previously expected to be physically fulfilled in Israel have instead been spiritually fulfilled in Jesus.

I think you would be handcuffing yourself right from the start if you insist that such prophecies have to be fulfilled in the physical sense.

In any case, I would have to do some serious study on Zechariah to be able to engage in a meaningful conversation with you on this.

Adam, when I read your posts I regret the years devoted to partying and selfishness wasted until my adult conversion to Christianity. This post reads like what happens to me when I am reading scripture and have an “aha” moment…giving credit to the Holy Spirit giving enlightenment while reading the Word. “Until” clearly gives us a timeframe that begins with the promise of God and ends with the work of Christ. Unbelieving Jews were the scourge of the early church, for Satan sought to kill the baby before it could grow into maturity. So often Paul alludes to their teaching or refers to the Judaizers who would put us under the Law.

The unconverted Jews are no longer God’s people, Christians are! We Christians have not as a church fully reached maturity (too many greedy or ignorant or shallow or unconverted “teachers” abound, wolves in sheep’s clothing) but we all have the encouragement to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord. “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” (Romans 2:28 &29 NKJV).

Paul sought that all Jews would come to Christ, but he and the other apostles and teachers of the early church had to fight the teachings of the reprobate Jews who were Jews in name only but not followers of the true God as well as converted Jews who wanted to drag the Law around behind them. This is why the early church was looking forward to the destruction of Jerusalem and particularly the Temple which God had abandoned as his Son died on the cross. God had made a judgment on the Jews who did not follow Christ and emphatically declared non-Christian Jews as NOT his people with said destruction. Biblical Judaism is dead. There is no temple, no sacrifices, only rabbinical opinions and useless legalism. The modern Jew is a child of the Pharisees. The Christian is the child of God.

Wow. When Hitler would agree with everything you have stated, you should probably have second thoughts about your train of thought, that leads to Auschwitz! Where oh where is the apostolic heart of Romans 9:1-3? Where is the weeping and groaning over this people? Where is the heart of Hosea to go after Gomer again and again? Where is the understanding of Romans 11:11,12 that points out God hardened them (preserving a remnant) but for the purpose of bringing in Gentiles who would live and love in such a way as to make the unbelieving Jew jealous and bring about their “full inclusion”?

I have to reply to this. I literally hate this type of comment. Let me be clear: Understanding that unbelievers are cut off from the tree of Israel in no way, I repeat, in no way is anti-Semitic. It is simply a fact as stated in scripture. Radaractive is absolutely right when the says the unbelieving Jews are no longer God’s people. Where is *your* understanding of Romans 11? “they were broken off because of unbelief”. That key verse can not be overlooked.

Jesus said “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters”. Now if Hitler agrees with that, then we have that in common and I stand guilty as charged, but don’t you dare imply that understanding this truth leads to Auschwitz, or you’re accusing the Lord himself.

The Jews are not with Jesus and therefore they are no different than any other person who has rejected Christ. Whether they be Atheist, Muslim, Hindu or Jew. They are all anti-Christ.

When you start linking the truth of God’s word to the evils of Hitler, you should probably have seconds thoughts yourself, but if I must be accused, I would rather be accused of being anti-Semitic, than anti-Christ.

Vincent, i believe i understand why you dislike these type of replies to comments. I don’t care for them either, but have grown accustomed to both seeing them AND being on the receiving end of a few at various discussion boards when Israel is brought up.

They add nothing to the discussion, in fact they seem to derail the very important issues which in fact, are desperately in need of being discussed. What they do bring to the surface is just how sensitive an issue today’s Israel and/or the Jews continue to be to a certain segment within the Church in the west.

If we as Christians could only grasp the truth of there being only two (TWO) categories of people on this earth today, lost and saved–or rather as believers and non-believers, this type of ultra–sensitivity whenever this one particular nation is brought up would not exist. I’ve witnessed many needful and excellent discussions be stopped dead in their tracks because of this…i only hope this will not be one.

Those who continue to believe today’s Israel still (continues) or will once again in the future, play a special part in the plan of salvation or that it continues to possess a special significance, in as far the Kingdom of God is concerned, (“special”- in as far as being different from any other nation of peoples) will always be offended when Israel is not portrayed in a positive light, because they still continue to see them as ‘God’s chosen people’…..instead of understanding the Word of God, under the new covenant, clearly now applies this only to those in Christ: the Church.

This topic, “The Scepter Shall Not Depart From Judah UNTIL…” is a simple, but profound biblical truth. Adam, you need never doubt the Holy Spirit revealed this wonderful truth to you; And to me, through your sharing of it, if i may add, lol.

The fact that it has struck a nerve bears witness to it being a much needed truth the Church is in need of understanding.

This will be a long “reply” so I will number my responses and give them each a title.
1) Anti-semitism First I am using the word in the usual sense that it is used, as a hatred toward the Jew, not as a hatred toward all descendants of Shem. Palestinians were not sought out in Germany based on having one grandparent of that descent, only Jews. I realize it is a sore spot in the debate with preterists and replacement theology to suggest that such thinking leads to a hatred of the Jew, but I am not withdrawing that statement just because it is unpopular. In the far northern reaches of Minnesota there is a stream that a child could step across, but if you follow that stream south for many miles it has been joined by other ‘waters’ and when it reaches New Orleans it is the mighty Mississippi. Radaractive’s reply, uses statements that, to me, represent that little stream in northern Minnesota, that provides a “pattern of thinking” that can and has (as a historical fact) lead to virulent hatred of the Jew.
“This is why the early church was looking forward to the destruction of Jerusalem and particularly the Temple which God had abandoned as his Son died on the cross. God had made a judgment on the Jews who did not follow Christ and emphatically declared non-Christian Jews as NOT his people with said destruction. Biblical Judaism is dead. There is no temple, no sacrifices, only rabbinical opinions and useless legalism. The modern Jew is a child of the Pharisees. The Christian is the child of God.” Radaractive
The early “church” (ecclesia, kahal, gathering of people with a common belief that flowed out of the promised Messiah of the natural olive tree) met in the temple, went to feasts in the temple, performed ritual’s in the temple, they were a seen as a Jewish sect. They used the Hebrew scriptures to show that nothing new was taking place here, just a fulfilling, a next step in the revelation of God’s mercy. The temple was not abandoned as Jesus died or at least no one gave the memo to the apostles. The necessary destruction of Jerusalem was warned of and many lives were saved because of this, but the Spirit that wrote Romans 9:1-3 could hardly have said to have been “looking forward” to it. (Which to me implies a little bit of ‘glee’.)
What do we do with the fact that Moses made the tabernacle based on a heavenly pattern? What do we do with the “nations who do not go up to the feast of booths, having a drought from God as punishment? (Zechariah 14:16,17 Vincent here is another set of “hard” verses, to find any sort of past fulfillment for, happy trails as you go looking.)
The “Not my people” is never permanent. It is temporary and then Hosea goes and buys Gomer back. I agree it is extravagant love, but I am grateful for it, not resentful of it and trying to re-write the book to make it go away.

2)Salvation and the unbelieving Jew. This would be a good place to clear up the old, old question. “Do you believe there is any difference between a unbelieving Jew and a lost Gentile?” Not in reference to their individual salvation experience. Every person must come to Jesus, and receive salvation through the only way, His atoning death and resurrection. God has made a national distinction, choosing them as his own inheritance, destining them for national salvation at His second coming. (Zechariah 12:10-14) That national salvation has many prophecies. I get that due to progressive revelation the time period of 1,000 years is only mentioned once, but the conditions and the reality of life in the millennial time are mentioned over and over. Isaiah 2:1-4 should be good enough for now.

The current return to the land in an unconverted state as a political nation with tons of problems is not what is being spoke of , but it is a necessary step. Adolph Saphir deserves credit for demonstrating this using scripture many years before 1948.
“return [to the land] in an unconverted state.
…. They are to be brought to Jerusalem, in order to be judged. (Ez. xxii. 17-22)
If they had returned to their own land in a converted state, it is impossible that God would pour out upon them His wrath. It is in Judea that, according to the prophet Zechariah, the Spirit shall be poured out upon the nation, and their hearts be turned unto the Redeemer (Zech. xii.).
A second restoration is spoken of in Isaiah 11.11, 12, 15, 16 and 66.19, 20.
….There are thus two restorations- one before, the other after the great crisis; one partial, the other complete; one which provokes the enmity of the nations, the other in which the nations rejoice and even co-operate.”
(Adolph Saphir, Christ & Israel,

3) Scripture challenge. Can’t help but notice that no one took up my challenge to state clearly when Zechariah 12:6-10 took place, literally and physically in history. Great minds gather here, what is the problem? If the sceptre has been transferred and some of the prophetic words of God to the nation Israel are not fulfilled, then some of His words have fallen to the ground, AND THAT MY FRIENDS IS NOT POSSIBLE. My view leaves room for a yet future fulfillment after a time of Jacob’s trouble, your view demands that you find the fulfillment in a historical event… and you can not, which leaves a gigantic hole in your theology. Vincent said, “I think you would be handcuffing yourself right from the start if you insist that such prophecies have to be fulfilled in the physical sense.” It doesn’t handcuff me, God is the sovereign King of the universe and He is big enough to bring each of his literal physical promises to a literal physical people to pass. For instance, …

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son,
And you shall call His name Jesus.
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High;
And the Lord God will give to Him the throne of His father, David,
And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever;
And of His kingdom there will be no end.
– Luke 1:31-33 The throne of His father, David, is in Jerusalem. (Psalm 122) who He is reigning over is called the “house of Jacob”, feel free to search the whole Bible and get back to me on when that term refers to the “church.” So the first promises of these verses were literally fulfilled, what would be the reason that we would suddenly decide to make the remaining verses “spiritual.”
Ezekiel 37:16-28 (More homework for Vincent)
Here is a promise to those who currently bear the title, “not my people” Zechariah 8:22,23 “22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.”
Sounds like God has taken upon Himself the job of making miracles come to pass. I am not surprised by that. One day, they will again be “my people” by a sovereign act. The Syrophonecian woman bowed to God’s choice and was blessed, and all those who bow to God’s right to choose will be blessed. (Matthew 15:21-28)

We serve a merciful, sovereign God, who has made provision in the mercy that He shows to Gentiles as a result of the partial hardening that He made to happen to the Jews. The Gentiles return that mercy as they reach out in love to the Jews, proclaiming to them in the wilderness, “your God reigns.” (Isaiah 52:7) The Spirit of God would not have broken into ecstatic praise at the end of Romans 11 if that beautiful section of scripture had simply meant, God tried the Jews, they rejected Him, Jesus came now everyone can come to Him, end of story. What makes the Spirit break out in ecstatic praise is that God has positioned us all “under His mercy” and He has combined that mercy with a sovereignty that makes sure NONE of His promises fall to the ground. NONE. Paul’s longing for all of Israel in Romans 9:1-3 is answered by God’s mercy in Romans 11:27.
I must end by putting the section just before Paul’s ecstatic song, right here for all to see.

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is [i]My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Please note, part of the reasoning the Spirit is revealing this truth is so that “you will not be wise in your own estimation.” So anyone who tries to push the Jewish national promises aside is being what??
“All Israel will be saved”, future tense.
“they are beloved for the sake of the fathers” present tense.

And so it comes to an end. I enjoy the challenge of these interactions and think that we all benefit.

Quote, Can’t help but notice that no one took up my challenge to state clearly when Zechariah 12:6-10 took place, literally and physically in history…

Chuck, it was probably because we had discussed it a few times previously. Though i wasn’t head-long into the discussion i do recall pointing out John stated verse 10 was fulfilled:

36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[c] 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[d] – John 19:37 Zech. 12:10

The challenge was for Zechariah 12:6-10, and John stating that one phrase has been fulfilled and that only partially since there is no mention of the time of mourning that follows in the nation as a result of “seeing the one they have pierced.” The limited number of people viewing that event, is a partial fulfillment in every sense of the words.

Just saw your challenge and the answer seems obvious to me. Acts 2:37 states that on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit was “poured out” that Peter’s Jewish dispora audience was “cut to the heart” and cried out “Brothers what shall we do?” They were convicted because they saw that Jesus’ blood was on their hands. The verse “Looking on him whom they have pierced” suggests an acknowledgement of guilt and culpability in the death of Christ. Thus the passage demands a first century interpretation since no other generation of Jews was responsible for the death of Jesus. As you read through Acts you will see that Peter is constantly witnessing to the Jewish authorities that they were guilty of innocent blood. “The one they had pierced.” No one the modern State of Israel is responsible for the death of Jesus.

Dear Chuck-I was listing what I considered to be positive fulfillment-conversion stories. As for judgement Matthew 26:64. Jesus was present at Jerusalem because he said he was he arrived in clouds of glory just like his Father had so many times in the OT. My hermenuetic says anything beyond 70AD violates the biblical audience analysis and time texts which requires that the prophecy fall within the time frame of the “this generation” that murdered/cursed Jesus. To me it is also a philosophical matter of justice. The generation that has to mourn is the generation that killed Jesus.
Those are my exegetical concerns. I know you have different criteria. Enjoy our dialog and hearing your point of view.

Chuck, just a suggestion but you might get more replies if you limited your comments to one topic at a time. There are people, like myself, who might want to offer a reply but your comments are (sometimes, lol) longer in length then Adam’s original posts and seem to go off topic.

I don’t offer this suggestion as a criticism, only if you are “really” seeking a discussion, rather then just making a bunch of points (which you believe are true, on various topics) one point at a time, on topic, might be more beneficial for you.

By the way, Merry Christmas and may the coming year find you and i (and all who visit here) drawing even closer to Jesus, as the year progresses! God bless you…

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Adam currently lives in Charlotte, North Carolina. He married his beautiful wife, Jasmine, in August 2012. From 2001-2007 he lived in Malaysia, where he taught English, learned the Malay language, facilitated village homestay programs, and fell in love with the local people, food, and culture. Adam enjoys writing and blogging about fulfilled eschatology, Christian Zionism, and other topics. Adam does proofreading and editing on the side (www.adamsproofreadingandmore.com).

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I Was a Teenage Dispensationalist
Dedicated to taking a critical look at “Left Behind” eschatology and how it has impacted the Church, society, and the ability of the Church to fulfill its great commission.