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You know, I am going to have to go back and break out my WEG books. I do remember the game being fun and fast paced and easy to learn, but I also remember the difficulties got out of hand rather quickly. And being a Jedi was the end all be all of characters.

Oh, nostalgia. Le sigh.

"I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken. About a great, many things."

"It is not the rules that make or break a game, it's the GM and the players."

I found that the best d6 games in my group were with newer characters. Difficulties did get out of hand. Hehehe...my friend was using a Barabel Shockboxer-turned jedi and thought he'd always build up his dodge...got it up to 13D+2 and I couldn't touch him...with anything....so it can be exploited I think. I had the most fun with my jedi characters but I had a solid group of non-jedi interested players so it was pretty well balanced.

...but I also remember the difficulties got out of hand rather quickly.

Do tell...

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Tremayne

And being a Jedi was the end all be all of characters.

[The rant below is not directed at you, Tremayne, I just got my brain churning about what I've been hearing people say recently about Force Powers in D6 and I wanted to get some of my thoughts out on "paper".]

I often hear folks talk about how "unbalanced" they feel characters with Force power supposedly are in Star Wars D6, but I never really experienced this the way they make it sound.

Yes, characters with Force Skills are more "powerful" (meaning they have more options) than non-Force Sensitives, but it comes with its own costs. There's the substantial training time for starters and the expenditure of Character Points which non-Force Users will be spending on raising their skills. There's the fact that your teacher chooses which Force Powers to teach you. Then, each Force Skill you're using counts as an action in combat, increasing your Multiple Action Penalty and the powers generally have very specific uses. Then there's the whole "Jedi Code and Falling to the Dark Side" *thing*...

Example 1: You have to have at least 2D+1 in Sense before the [Lightsaber Combat] power even begins to benefit you. Activating and maintaining [Lightsaber Combat] requires both Control and Sense, which is two actions, then if you wish to attack with your lightsaber in a round, that is a third action for a -2D penalty to all actions. Subtract 2D from your 2D+1Sense Skill and you are only left with the +1 bonus to your attack roll. Then, if you want to dodge/parry any attacks that come at you that round, that's additional penalties you have to take. So, it's not as powerful as it sounds until you get to a higher level of your skill.

Example 2: [Absorb/Dissipate Energy] is an "all-or-nothing" effect. Either you absorb the damage or you fail and take full damage. With a regular blaster pistol doing 4D damage, you'd have to have at least 4D in Control to have fair odds at absorbing a blaster bolt, assuming you have taken no other actions that round. Attacking a stormtrooper and then trying to [Absorb/Dissipate] blaster fire in the same round is two actions (-1D to all Skills), so in such a case, you'd only roll 3D to absorb against the blaster's 4D damage roll...possible, but not likely.

Sorry for the rant...I just don't think Force Skills in D6 are anywhere near as overpowered as some people seem to suggest. I really only see them becoming an issue when you have GMs who are easy and loose with letting players learn Force Skills and powers or have games that allow characters to develop their Force Skills into higher dice ranges in excess of about 7D or so. At that point, you're approaching Vader or Obi-Wan power levels anyway.

Hehehe...my friend was using a Barabel Shockboxer-turned jedi and thought he'd always build up his dodge...got it up to 13D+2 and I couldn't touch him...with anything...

Have someone attack him with Melee Weapons or Brawling. That's why Star Wars D6 included 3 different defense skills. Dodge only works against ranged attacks, Brawling Parry is used against Brawling, and Melee Parry is used against Melee Weapons. If he wants to be Mr. Super-Defense, he has to split his Character Points between three skills, not just one.

Just an observation. I've had "Captain Dodge" characters in my games on occasion too. I had to remind them that Dodge is not a catch-all skill.

Do tell...I really only see them becoming an issue when you have GMs who are easy and loose with letting players learn Force Skills and powers or have games that allow characters to develop their Force Skills into higher dice ranges in excess of about 7D or so. At that point, you're approaching Vader or Obi-Wan power levels anyway.

that was the redeeming quality was that the GM had control over these things much more than one does over the resources available in d20.

However, problems did arise when you had "high-level" games, when skills were pushing 7D+. Beyond that point you ran into the same problem the RCR had, high level Jedi are nigh-unstoppable. Restricting the powers and abilities that are available to the players I was never really that comfortable with. If a player expressed interest in gaining x power then I felt it my duty as a GM to supply them with it.

So I do agree that while lower level games were not so bad, any high levels games were pretty one sided as far as Jedi were concerned.

I wish I could remember details to back my case but I don't remember too much from those games back then. Same with my 2nd edition D&D games. C.R.S.!!

"I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken. About a great, many things."

"It is not the rules that make or break a game, it's the GM and the players."

Have someone attack him with Melee Weapons or Brawling. That's why Star Wars D6 included 3 different defense skills. Dodge only works against ranged attacks, Brawling Parry is used against Brawling, and Melee Parry is used against Melee Weapons. If he wants to be Mr. Super-Defense, he has to split his Character Points between three skills, not just one.

CRAP! I totally forgot about that in my games...granted there was a lot of blaster fire...lol...I was young. Thanks for reminding me lol

that was the redeeming quality was that the GM had control over these things much more than one does over the resources available in d20.

I very much agree. For some reason I have yet to put my finger on, it seems like any version of d20 Star Wars is a little trickier to "reign the players in" and keep them from just cherry-picking the powers they want and ignoring anything they deem "frivolous".

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Tremayne

However, problems did arise when you had "high-level" games, when skills were pushing 7D+. Beyond that point you ran into the same problem the RCR had, high level Jedi are nigh-unstoppable.

I agree to this to an extent. Any character (Force User or not) with skill levels that approach the 8D range or so start to really show how terrifyingly good they are. Force Skills at this level can be very potent in the right hands, but Force Powers still can't solve every situation. Besides, it would take a long campaign to reach that level in Force Skills, so the game is probably becoming rather epic by that point.

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Tremayne

Restricting the powers and abilities that are available to the players I was never really that comfortable with. If a player expressed interest in gaining x power then I felt it my duty as a GM to supply them with it.

I've always tried to take a "fair but firm" stance on this issue. Force Users may let me know that they are interested in powers X, Y and Z. I will put that in the back of my mind as a goal that they are working toward and try to help them on the path to gaining those things while making them aware that the rewards will come with good effort. If you tell me you want to have [Lightsaber Combat], I have no objection to that but, just as a responsible teacher would, that isn't going to be the very first power you get. The Force User needs to build a basic foundation and the teacher needs to be sure that the student is responsible and stable enough to handle his powers without abusing them (the student's actions are the responsibility of the teacher).

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Tremayne

So I do agree that while lower level games were not so bad, any high levels games were pretty one sided as far as Jedi were concerned.

I've witnessed a few instances of Jedi-heinousness. I think it really falls upon the GM (and also the sensibilities of the player) to maintain the game's integrity...but I think that's true of any RPG I've run. There's always that one player that tries to take things too far. Be it D&D, Cyberpunk (ugh!), Shadowrun (double ugh!), Mutants & Masterminds, Vampire, Star Wars, etc.

Originally Posted by Tamerath

CRAP! I totally forgot about that in my games...granted there was a lot of blaster fire...lol...I was young. Thanks for reminding me lol

Yeah, I had some thugs take a swing at one of my PCs once and I told him, "Okay, roll your Brawling Parry". He looked at me and said, "You mean Dodge, right?". Needless to say, he hadn't put any dice in Brawling Parry, so he just had to roll his Dexterity. I think many folks forget about the distinction. Good to keep in mind for the future though.

I may have said it elsewhere, but I don't know if I could seriously play star wars in a non D6 system... I'm pretty thoroughly involved in a long standing campaign that's been D6 for about 15 years though...

There are some quirks with the system as has been mentioned that you need to be aware of though. Indeed, if players focus their points into certain skills, they are bound to become extremely powerful in that area. A barabel shockboxer with dodge at 13D+2 is pretty formidable, almost impossible to hit with blasters, and tough against melee combat as well. No match for a well trained jedi with a lightsaber though... so the part about jedi being unbeatable is sort of true in the context of jedi vs non-jedi once the jedi reaches a certain level of proficiency.

As was stated though, jedi will be weak when initially created, so they'll have to play for a long time to build up all their critical skills, lightsaber, melee parry, control, sense, alter... maybe others...

Indeed, in WEG starwars, there's almost always a vulnerability you can exploit... even against jedi. One of my players has become an extremely powerful jedi, saber and melee parry at 10D+, and force skills around 10D... he's basically immune to being hit by blasters, and logically he should be more powerful than most other force users he encounters, so even dark jedi can't reliably beat him. However... for characters with strong personal defense abilities... there's always the times when they're travelling, on ships in space... their ship could be ambushed, and if they've been focusing on lightsaber and force skills, they're probably weak on ship piloting and gunnary... so you could put their life in danger that way... my player has a pretty supe'd up ship, and has investing heavily in piloting skill, so he can usually at least escape pretty reliably.

So... I've developed other methods of challenging him. Blasters set to stun shoot a blue stun ring, like we see Leia get hit by in episode 4 right? The area of effect is too big to be blocked by a lightsaber, so he's still vulnerable to stun attacks, and there's also larger area of effect stunners out there. He's also still vulnerable to fire damage, because fire doesn't have consistant "shape" it can't be blocked by a lightsaber right? Or a spray of napalm like substance?? So now realizing this after I've used it on him a few times, my player has started increasing his dodge too.

Still however, things like grenades and thermal detonators are even larger area of effect, and he probably wont' be able to dodge completely out of the blast radius, so there's potential for at least some damage from grenades or other blast type damage.

Then... I've introduced an arch villain... dark side force user on par with the player's level of power... The first battle was a clear loss for the player, but he escaped. But there's rematches possible...

Finally... there's the moral battle against the dark side. My player has managed to get 1 darkside point, and since his character has gotten sooo powerful in a span of time of only about 3 years game time, his character is now susceptible to the dark side, so he has to think really hard about how to avoid any more dark side points, and how to get rid of the one he has. Since he won't use the dark side, the one dark side point he has is giving him a penalty to his force skills.

I don't really believe in limiting my players' characters' potential to grow, but I have emplaced a few house rules to slow down the growth and interject some make sense factor...

First, at my player's elite level of skill, he has gotten so good at lightsaber fighting and the force, that anyone he had as a teacher can no longer teach him anymore, so he would have to pay double ps to increase force skills, and I've ruled that his lightsaber skill is so high, that he can't really improve just by training, and actually, he has to invest enough time to train just to maintain his current level of skill. The only way to improve without paying double points is to go against someone of even greater power. This is dangerous, because your skills will be weaker than the new arch villain

Dark Jedi PC

I've been reading the posts and they are really good. I've garnered many good ideas from reading the things all of you have posted.

The GM I play under is a good friend. We have been friends for almost 25 years and have gamed most of that time (various genre). Our favorites are 2nd Edition AD&D and WEG D6 Star Wars.

In the most recent Star Wars game, one of the players asked the GM if he would allow him to play a Jedi of an alien race who was corrupted by a Dark Ritual which caused him to become a Vampiric Dark Jedi.

The original premise was supposed to tie the character to a story arch involving an ancient artifact of unknown origin. (the artifact was created as a plot hook).

The GM told the player that he does not like players playing Dark Side Jedi. The player assured the GM that he was not going to unbalance his campaign.

It was explained that the character he wanted to play was an alien, whose people had succumb to the Dark Side through a rift in the Force created when they tried to open a direct connection with the Force through a ritual. But something went horribly wrong and the volunteer through whom the intended connection was to become established was instead filled with Dark Side energies and transformed into a Vampiric Lifeforce Energy draining humanoid, who began feeding on his own people until he was driven off world.

The player's character left off world to search for an artifact rumored to be capable of closing the rift and restoring his people to normal. His people had been transformed into Vampiric Lifeforce Energy draining humanoids who feed on the Midi-Chlorians of Force Sensitives by draining their blood.

The player assured the GM that as soon as he located the ancient artifact, he would return to his home world and use the artifact to close the rift and restore his people.

The player was persuasive and the GM was curious as to how this would play out, and he allowed the player to play the character. Within 3 sessions the player located the artifact and rather than return to his home world as soon as he could, he instead went about systematically unbalancing the campaign. When the GM called him on it, he accused the GM of railroading and being a bad GM.

We (the other players) didn't see the harm in allowing the character to have a little off world fun before returning to his home planet to complete a ritual that would effectively retire his character from the game. (The vampiric character was created specifically to save his people and close the rift). The GM prefers to maintain the peace so he agreed to allow the character to delay his return home.

A few sessions after that, we (the other players) regretted our decision. The Vanpiric character began to systematically destroy the campaign. The GM tried to stop it but by that time (for reasons that are far too detailed to go into without taking up a lot! more space) the player had become rude and hostile to any suggestion that his character was overpowered and disruptive. The player kept insisting that the GM was being unfair and singling him out just because his character was clever enough to outwit the GM's plans and the GM's NPCs.

Meanwhile, the other players said nothing and seemed to be enjoying the new power level that the player had introduced. But now we all see how this player has abused the game, rules, and GM's willingness to allow a player to play an unusual character. The rogue player does not see that he is doing anything wrong.

The GM has tried to amp up the power level of his campaign in an effort restore the balance. Each time he has attempted to do so, the power player has become biligerent and accusational.

At one point the GM was 'told' by that player that he would strand him at the game location if he tried to bring in anything that the player did not want brought in. In other words, anything the GM tried to use to re-establish control over the game the player of the Vampiric character shot down with threats.

The GM told the other players (since the one out of control won't listen to him anymore) that the next time the player threatens him over anything in-game, he is out of the game permanently and will never be allowed to play in any other game the GM holds.

(it might help the reader to know that the offensive player was the GMs only source of transportation up until recently, and we have been playing at the home of one of the other players.)

Now that I've filled you all in on the basics, I'd like your feedback as to what should be done in the future to prevent this type of abuse from happening again.

Obviously, the player in question is a very negative influence on the game and (as he himself demonstrated and subsequently tried to deny) can't be trusted or taken at his word. Were it my group, he would be uninvited if he did not cease his attitude immediately and surrender his character to the GM.

As far as preventing similar problems in the future with other players, take it as a lesson learned. The GM should not allow co-mingling of "evil" characters with a "good" party or campaign and vice versa. It only leads to party conflict and player/GM resentment. All players should approach (most) games from the point of view that their characters want to work together and have reason to trust each other.