Received my Torii. Only 100 hrs but so far it's transparancy is breath taking. My wife is a piano teacher and she is astounded at the amps ability to express how softly or hard keys are played. The scale of full orchestral music is shocking. I am a vocal lover and am thrilled at how I can now hear how close to the mic the singer is and other nuances. Tom Waits Orphans-Bawlers has so much intimacy and texture it is hard for me to turn it off!

I am new to tubes and so need some help. I have enjoyed your comments on this forum. First, my minimalist system consists of a BPT-1 balanced power isolation transformer, SB touch with Flac recordings, MHDT Havana with Bendix red bank, Torii with vcaps and 16 ohm taps, Zu Soul Superfly.

I listen in a near field triangle. I have all stock tubes in the Torii with the optional Shugang Treasues waiting to take a turn. The JJ's sound good so far. The input tubes are EH 6922's which surprised me as I thought the stock were Russian 6n1p's. The rectifiers are stock OA3 and OC2. The OC2 is Raytheon Kr85 and glows lavender.

The Zu's are extremy dynamic, highly resolving, forward sounding but also unforgiving to the point that with some music I feel the need for a bit more warmth and body. I have the treble pots set at 11 o'clock and the bass at 1:00 o'clock.

Would switching to the 6n1p-ev do the trick or would the National's 7dj8 from upscale audio be better?

Which 6n1p's to buy?

Also, I want to replace the stock Chinese 5u4g's. What do you reccomend and a good source to buy them from?

I think the 6N1P may be a good choice to add warmth to the sound. I find that the 6N1P tubes offered by www.cryoset.com are very good, I've tried several and all are nice-sounding and have survived cryo-ing and been very reliable and stable.

In my opinion almost any 5U4G tube will be better than those Rubys, I really dislike every one of those I've heard. I've had good success with this tube type by RCA, GE, EH and Sylvania, in both straight-sided and bottle shaped. I buy these from ebay, and also have bought from a board member and from www.tubeman.com

But some of the current brightness may dissipate with some use. I'd say stick it out for a few hundred hours and evaluate again. And keep us posted!

With only 100 hours on the V-caps and 6CA7s, it would certainly seem you are not hearing where the amp will go, but I get the urge to refine with tubes, and nice ones offer good tuning choices now and later. I find that every tube counts for fine tuning, not just the power and input tubes. If your Torii has the straight sided Russian OA3's, you can get a warmer sound from some 50s OA3s. Ebay and Tubeworld are good sources for VRs. I particularly like Hytron, Tungsol, and Raytheon labeled ST shaped VRs for warmth.

Also, if you do not have tube dampers, I suspect they might solve some of your current sound refinement needs. Check out Herbiesaudiolab. I find that these solidify the tone of tubes and help take the edginess off.

I got some 1955 Winged -C 5U4G-STs from ebay, and so far I prefer the warm transparency and balance of my 50's RCA-STs, but the Russian tubes only have about 80 hours, so I am not sure this is a fair comparison. I do think the Russian 5U4Gs will warm things up over the bright and open Ruby's, though mine seem to have a high mid bump compared to the neutrality of the RCAs. I like 5U4GBs a lot too and they are cheap on Ebay. I find Raytheon/Tungsol are warmish, and Sylvania, more open/neutral.

Not having heard the ElectroHarmonics 6922, I can't compare. And I can't get the 6N1Ps to sound right in my Torii in that they are too prone to distortion with my setup, so I stick with 6922, 6DJ8, and 7DJ8. Any of these types can be warmer or more neutral depending on make and year.

I prefer buying "pulls," or relatively low usage Old Stock tubes when possible, being notably cheaper and already broken in. Mullard and Amperex 6922 and 6DJ8 are my favorites overall.

7DJ8s are a good bargain for the most part for NOS, and most I have heard sound good. The upscale National is an interesting tube with a nice warmth, deep bass, good balance, and a particularly open and seductive presence. It could end up a little in your face with your present tubes though, it is so clear and dynamic across the spectrum. But with warmer 5U4G and/or OA3s, you might love them. They are a very expressive tube bringing out a lot of macro and micro detail. Or for an inexpensive taste of the 7DJ8 the Lorenz labeled Eis at tubemonger are smoother/warmer than the Nationals and might help without changing the other tubes. Also a touch warmer, one of my current favorites for a natural sound is a Siemens/CBS 7DJ8 from cryoset.

Lately I have been back to exploring 6922s though, particularly some Mullard gold pin pulls.

I have to say though that I have a range of all the tube types, so I can easily mix and match to make most decent tubes sound very good. So many tubes and so little time!

I think things are well with your OA3s as they were shipped with the amp. The tubes that ship with the Torii change as time goes on...but you can bet Steve liked the synergy at the time. He also sells the premium Treasures and V-caps as upgrades he has decided are worth it. Then there are your source, speakers, cables, feet, power and the rest that the Torii will reveal the individual characters of, as well as the synergy or lack there of, and we go from there. I am really glad the amp is that revealing, making fine tuning to personal taste very articulate no matter how deeply we choose to explore.

My Russian straight sided OA3 say V-68 on the side. I wonder if it is a batch or date code. So hard to tell which do what without direct comparison, but mine are very clear and open. Not warm. This to me is not necessarily bad though as the tubes have great extension and are very revealing, working well with warmer tubes. My favorite bright OA3 is a 80s Sylvania ST shape from tubeworld though, which I tend to choose over the Russian when I need a transparent OA3.

I guess the Treasures are new? So many new parts, but if they fill the need for more body, that is great. I hear the Treasures take a good 300 hours or more to really come into their sound, and I have found the JJs to take 200 or so, but they get close to where they will go after 120 or 130 gradually improving after.

I also find that treble and bass adjustments are often, if not most of the time, relevant with tube changes.

Also speaker position tweaks can be good now and then to refine the sound as the amp develops.

On another note, relative to your first post, I recall Steve saying that he voices the amp with 6922s. Don't know which ones, but it is not surprising that he is shipped yours with the EH 6922 considering this.

If I am not mistaken there are a number of variations of the RCA 50s 5U4G-STs. I have two of them, one with wider interiors on the plates, and one with narrower. Also there are those with bottom getters and those with top getters, and different micas too. I like both of my pairs though, the heavier plate ones being a bit richer and more liquid, and the lighter plates being a little more open.

After figuring this out, I would ask for matches in construction if I were to order any from say Brent Jesse, who has a lot of them with various labels and construction.

Sounds like a really good set of tubes to play with. With your 2 sets of EL34 and options with all the rest of your tube types, the combination possibilities are pretty vast. The RCA OC2 by the way will sound different than the Raythions, that is if the Raythions are older tubes too, so yet another tuning option.

Great news on the Nationals! I really like the texture that 7DJ8s tend to offer and the Nationals do have a nice balance of detail, body, bass and dynamics. The EHs sound like they must be lean at this point in your system. Interesting. Surprised on the VRs. Though the OC2s can be subtler, I haven't heard two OAs sound alike except those of the same make and time. Your suggestion of early stage burnin being an influence makes sense. Keep us informed!

Received a pair of 1957 Svetlana's 5U4G's and right out of the box they took that very slight remaining edge off on some music. (e.g. Bob Dylan's harmonica) They also really tightened up the bass on the Zu Superfly's. The Zu's put out all the bass you could want with the Torii. My Torii has 8 and 16 ohm taps but actually I like the 8 ohms better with the Zu's. More weight and fuller sounding. Vocals have more presence.

Lon, you were right about those ruby's. I think most people who don't want to tube roll could change that one pair and be done with it. Steve's stock shipping tubes are voiced very well. If I did not have the Zu's which are famous for getting 'in you face' at times, I probably would have just rolled with the stock tubes.

Great news on the rectifiers. I have found that individual tubes have particular sound attributes in the Torii, but as usual, it is finally synergy. And the magic synergy sometimes arrives in unexpected ways.

I had been running National 7DJ8s with Hytron OC3s, Mullard OC2, 50's RCA 5U4G-ST and cryo'd JJ 6CA7s. Then I got a pair of 60s Philips/Amperex SQ 6922 pulls, and Dylan and trumpets and the like began to hurt a bit on top...too bright. The rest sounded good but a bit warm and dense by comparison to the high mids up.

I started by rolling in some 50's Westinghouse OB3s (same as 50s Tungsol as far as I can tell) for a bit more body and weight, then began wandering through 5U4Gs. First I tried 55 Svetlanas and top was pretty sweet, but a bit bright still, while below, they sounded too thick and thunky. With a few previous tube sets, I found the Svetlanas to bias a bit toward the upper mids up with a slightly less articulate bass compared to my particular 50s RCA 5U4G-STs, but with better balance than with this set.

Then I started trying my favorite 5U4GBs, ones I typically consider extended, balanced and spacious. After several busts, I arrived at an unexpected pair, some Raytheon 5U4GBs (I think 40's) with flared bases. I thought of these tubes as ones I could use to open the mids to top, but with this combination, the sound is warm, liquid, yet open, with deep articulate bass, and lovely clear but smooth highs. And these tubes cost about 20 bucks delivered from Ebay!

Hard to say what they might do for your system/room. I like these particular Raytheons in the right setting, but they are typically an occasional use tube for me. In this set, particularly with these warmer inputs, they are awesome. The bases flare out from the bottom, the relatively fat bottle glass set into the wider top part of the base. They have dual top rectangular getters on the sides.

There are other Raytheons (I believe 50s), fat bottle, medium height, standard bottom, dual top rectangular getters, and these tend to sound very slightly less solid, and little warmer in the low mids, with open and fresh upper mids...interesting too. It looks nearly identical to a pair of Tungsol I have. Seems that at least in the 50s, with OB3s and 5U4GBs I have, that Tungsol and Raytheon are the same.

I really like 5U4GBs as a choice, and since they can be had inexpensively, I have a number of pairs. The distinguishing characteristic for me is a sort of hard to explain, spacious and textural midrange.

The Sylvania tall bottles I have are nicely balanced and lively, and a pair of early RCAs with vey long bottles and inner construction like 5U4G-ST, with no bottom mica....these are amazing in their extension, spaciousness, and transparency, but in my system, they can be demanding, needing just the right balance to warm them up a bit.

The thing I found looking around Ebay for these tubes is to look carefully at the pictures to see that they are just the same construction....same bottle size, mica, getters...as well as test scores. Then even they have different labels, you have something useful to play with.

Ok, I have had a chance to play with all the new tubes. The verdict is surprising:

I prefer the 1950's Svetlana's 5U4G's over the 1950's RCA 5U4G's. Both are the coke bottles.

I also prefer the 6N1P-EV's over the National 7DJ8 (upscale).

The reason is the Zu's. They are so dynamic, imediate and transparant that they need taming with the Torii which is just as dynamic, immediate and transparent. This tube combo gives much more rich layers of texture to the music without any loss of detail. Emotionally addictive and seductive without losing speed and dynamics. I have found audio nirvana for my system.

Now I understand why Gopher was looking for input tubes with a touch of seduction as he had the Zu's as well. This tube combo is the answer.

Right now I am using the JJ output tube as I had a defective Treasure tube, so when I put back in the Treasure I will need to evaluate again.

Thanks Lon and Will for your great help in finding a good combo for my room and system.

FWIW just rolled in a quad of EH 6ca7 fat boys from Upscale Audio and they sound incredible. I've read great reviews about them for awhile now but finally got around to getting some. At $22/tube these are really a great value. Best the Torii has sounded yet.

Thanks for the tip sberger. I have been wondering about those tubes too. Would it be possible to give us some context for your likes and dislikes. Maybe describe what it is that you think is better about the EHs compared to other power tubes you have used... and what you are using for the rest of your tube compliment???

Sure. Been using Treasures, and had a bad one so had the JJ's that came with the amp in for awhile. Loved the Treasures but not going to be spending the serious $$'s that they ran again. The JJ's are a really nice tube, good extension and dynamics, although not in the same ball park as the Treasures. But the EH's are imo. Right out of the box clean detailed top with just the perfect amount of slam and body. I work while I'm listening to music. Was listening to some Booker Ervin sides that I am very familiar with. When a particular hot segment came on I had to put down my work and simply gawk at my speakers. Something new and exciting was happening with my Torii. As great as it has been since day 1 these tubes just clicked. They just do everything well. The other tubes are Amperex 6922 PQ's, Raytheon OC2's, the OA3's that came with the amp, and 50's TungSol 5U4G's picked up a while back in the classifieds. Hope that helps.

Thanks sberger. Sounds like a nice tube in your nice set! Also, cryoset.com has cryo'd at 85 for a quad if anyone is interested. I almost bought some, but got scared by the description saying it was a tetrode design, and since the Torii write up talks about the Pentode design of EL34s, would this particular 6CA7-EH utilize the Hazen grid mod???

And since I know absolutely jack about this, I just didn't go there. Since they work so well for you sberger, Hazen mod, or not, I am re-tempted.

Cool. BTW Lon you raved so much about Cryoset's IC's that I went ahead and bought me some to stick between my pre and the Torii. Should be here next week. Using some Decware IC's now that I'll have to put somewhere else I guess, unless for some reason the Cryoset's don't work out like I anticipate.

I think you'll really enjoy them. Pay attention to the direction, these were the most directional ICs I've ever used (I think it's because of the cryo process and the fact that they are burned in a few days before mailing). There's a color band on one end of each cable that goes at the source end.

I also found that they went through a few audible phases for a few weeks and then settled in to a stable smooth warm sound. Takes about a week to get. . . hope you have them soon.

I don't believe there are any structural or electrical differences between the EH and JJ 6CA7 constructions, and Steve is shipping with the JJs which has made many of us assume (with the lack of a direct word from Steve) that the Hazen Grid improves this tube. . . .

Looking forward to your thoughts on the cryoset cables. And to Lon's on the 6CA7-EH. Yes, maybe they are the same construction as the JJ 6CA7, I couldn't find out with a cursory search though.

I am just starting to listen to a DIY pair of silver ICs from the VHAudio recipe. Also very directional. I thought about marking them when I built them, but in my excitement, I forgot. So I had to find out from listening one channel at a time, one cable at a time and I marked the source end for the direction with the most micro detail, made most noticeable in ambient information (a great trick for finding the cable with most information that I learned from Eric as dbAudioLabs). So far I would say the cables are awesome...very deep, detailed and smooth picture into the music.

But my system has been very, very engrossing lately anyway, so can't say how they compare until they burn in more. Then I can do some direct comparisons.

Lon you make a good point. From doing some brief research since posting last I found out that while the 6CA7 is the USA id of the El34 and that both are supposed to be pentode some Eastern European manufacturers have been substituting beam tetrodes for El34's because they're cheaper and easier to make. And evidently it's the fat bottle 6CA7's such as the EH's which utilize beam tetrodes, not the skinny bottle variety. The JJ's are considered beam pentode.

Well, we'll see. I'll definitely let you know on or off the board. Sounds from what Sam is hearing that the Grid is participating.

Interesting about the home-made ICs. I now have two pair of the Cryoset, one connecting the DAC to the Torii, one from the SACD player to the Torii. And if I have the Reality ICs for when I introduce the CSP2 back into the system; they really work wonderfully in conjunction with the DAC and the CSP2.

Not necessarily I'm afraid. Frankly I'm not sure what a tube that utilizes the HG mod should sound like vs. one that doesn't. It seems that the Treasures also utilize a tetrode design(from brief research I have done...I may be wrong). And whether a tetrode can utilize it also, although I'm guessing that it can't. I have pm'd Steve so hopefully we will have an answer soon.

Thanks for checking it out. I am guessing that since Steve sells the Treasure as a distinct upgrade (and if it is a Tetrode), that it probably utilizes the mod, but I could be wrong. Hopefully he will clarify this for us.

I'm sure you are right. And I should make clear that I am just going on whatever I can find online. As it regards the Treasures there is hardly anything conclusive. I basically would love to find out if a tube like the EH will engage the HGM, and if not at the very least that there is no harm in using it because the sound really is that good.

Well, over 24 hours on the EH now. Interesting sound, though it's rash to make any generalizations with just a full day on the tubes especially as these are cryo'd, they have a more Russian sound than the JJs do, a very Winged C sound. Some bass has come in, and right now they're a bit diffuse sounding, lots of ambient sound with less pinpoint imaging than the fully seasoned JJs do.

I don't plan on changing any other of my tube sets, certainly not before these are settled in, and I don't think they'll need a change in accompanying tubes. We'll see.

They seem to be constructed similarly to the JJ and sound close enough that my guess is that if the JJs take advantage of the Mod, then these do too (and vice versa). But it would be interesting to have word from the top.

Interesting Lon. I really hope Steve addresses this because if you go strictly by what has been written about the mod the EH's shouldn't be able to take advantage. The JJ's are pentode and the EH's are not.

Steve hasn't gotten back to me yet. Perhaps if you send him a PM or email you will have better luck. In the meantime I'm using the JJ's because they sound really good in my current setup and I figure I know for sure that they are taking advantage off all the Torii has to give.

Its all in the sound though isn't it...what makes the music feel most real in our given setting and by our given tastes. Mod or not, sberger, sounds like your experience with the EH is really good. I do wish Steve (or a techy Decware fan) would give us some clarity here on the EH 6CA7 and the Hazen Grid mod though.

The sales blurb on the EH refers to it as a "classic tetrode". See The Tubestore for one example. There is also several threads on various audio and guitar forums. Same for the JJ as a pentode. A Google brings up a lot of info.

Yeah, I read all that. I just don't necessarily TRUST any of it. I don't know how to evaluate the sources. There's a lot of misinformation out there about tubes. (I'm especially skeptical of what guitarists say about tubes. I've known a lot of them, played with a lot of them, and many don't necessarily know anything appropriate about tubes). Note that tubestore doesn't seem to really know what's what with the JJ regarding tetrode or pentode.

It may well be true that JJ is pentode and EH tretrode, and there's enough of a difference in the presentation between the two tubes to suggest that it may be possible that one utilizes the mod and one doesn't. But I'd really only trust what I hear from Steve.

I followed your example, and put the JJs back in for now, and have the EH in my Torii Mk II in my bedroom system. Their slight "sunniness" in comparison to the JJs is always fine there, where due to speaker placement I have more bass than I know what to do with. I'll continue breaking them in there and enjoy the JJs out here for another spell. Have really gotten used to the JJs, really enjoy them.

Ron Sheldon at cryoset told me a few days ago he shipped your cables, so you should have those to enjoy soon! Alright!

I got them, put them between my pre abd the Torii and put the Decware cables rhat I had there between my phono pre and pre. Have already experienced a not so subtle improvement after about 15 hours. Good stuff!