Receiver to make M60s sound good?

Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0812:01 AM

I've had my M60s for a couple of months now along with VP100. I use a Denon 3808 as I've seen a lot of posts say that it matches well with the M60. I used Audyssey to set the levels. I've seen posts that say that the M60s can be somewhat bright so a receiver like the Denon 3808 would avoid that. I do have a couple of SACDs that sound pretty good but the hundreds of CDs and 1000's of mp3s I have are just not pleasant to listen to. When volumes go up the shrillness/brightness is so bad that I can only listen for a couple of minutes. I've tried running on direct with no auto equalization adjustment and every other way. I thought they would "break in" after a few weeks but no luck. I've read that they "play what is there so if your recording is bad then the sound will be bad". I can understand that to a point but my previous speakers (less expensive) didn't make recordings that weren't perfect sound so bad. I have friends over several times a year and after a few adult beverages and I'm playing good music I get the "turn it up" scream and in the past I would and the party would crank up a notch but now I'm afraid when someone wants to turn it up everyone will start screaming "turn it down"! Is it the Denon or should I just resign myself to the fact that I made a wrong choice and probably should have returned them within the 30 days?

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0812:18 AM

It's the source material, as you have said you have found some SACD's that sound pretty good. I have burned all my music in flac and stream them to my 3808 and only the poorly recorded cds now still play badly. MP3s and Axiom M22/M60/M80 do not get along very well. What bit rate are you MP3s? I try to keep everything that I haven't ripped from cds, to at least 256k to keep the sound quality as close to original as possible.

I do know Axiom has for some owners, sent out resistors for the tweeters to tame some shrillness. They are very easy to install, maybe try giving them a call to see if you can get some, it may help.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0812:21 AM

Bobby, the 3808 and the other receivers simply amplify the voltages that come in from the source materials; when set flat they certainly don't in any way reduce any "shrillness" that may be present in some of that material. Neither do accurate speakers such as the M60s degrade their own quality by making the shrillness less audible. The usual way to partially compensate for poor material is to turn the treble tone control on the receiver down a bit.

You may have heard these comments before, but there's no good reason to change them, since they're still true.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0812:23 AM

Originally Posted By: jakewash

It's the source material, as you have said you have found some SACD's that sound pretty good. I have burned all my music in flac and stream them to my 3808 and only the poorly recorded cds now still play badly. MP3s and Axiom M22/M60/M80 do not get along very well. What bit rate are you MP3s? I try to keep everything that I haven't ripped from cds, to at least 256k to keep the sound quality as close to original as possible.

I do know Axiom has for some owners, sent out resistors for the tweeters to tame some shrillness. They are very easy to install, maybe try giving them a call to see if you can get some, it may help.

I have most of my mp3s at 256k and above. How do you get flac to play on the 3808. When I put flac files in a directory to stream from my computer/NAS or whatever they don't show up, only mp3s and I think wav shows up also. I posted on another site in the 3808 thread about streaming flac files but no one responded.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0812:33 AM

Originally Posted By: JohnK

Bobby, the 3808 and the other receivers simply amplify the voltages that come in from the source materials; when set flat they certainly don't in any way reduce any "shrillness" that may be present in some of that material. Neither do accurate speakers such as the M60s degrade their own quality by making the shrillness less audible. The usual way to partially compensate for poor material is to turn the treble tone control on the receiver down a bit.

You may have heard these comments before, but there's no good reason to change them, since they're still true.

Thanks for the comments. I have several SACDs that reviewers have voted as great recordings, reference level recordings and many of those sound harsh. I guess I'll re-hookup my Atlantic Technology speakers and do a side by side test. They are 2 way speakers and shouldn't sound near as good as the M60s but I'm afraid that they will I may try what jakewash suggested and call Axiom to see if they have resistors that address that problem.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0805:22 AM

Originally Posted By: edmondwolfman

I have most of my mp3s at 256k and above. How do you get flac to play on the 3808. When I put flac files in a directory to stream from my computer/NAS or whatever they don't show up, only mp3s and I think wav shows up also. I posted on another site in the 3808 thread about streaming flac files but no one responded.

I used Winamp to rip my files onto my Linksys NAS200 and the linksys sets up a network ready music file that all my PC'c can find instantly when connected to the netowrk. I will guess the settings the NAS is using is allowing me to stream without any thought about any other needs. I will guess the folder in which you have all the music saved needs to be shared on the network. The 3808 has its own system to find the files on the network. I really haven't thought about what is going on too technically, all I know is that it works great for me. I guess I should look deeper one day.

I am curious what sort of DB levels are you listening at? I only find the M80s becoming shrill at extreme levels, about 100db and up. Have you run the Audyssey setup and then made your own adjustments to the EQ to suit your tastes, basically as John said, a treble adjustment. It could be something that Audyssey is doing to the EQ due to something it is noticing in the room setup. Have you tried the system with no Audyssey used at all, is it still shrill? Latest updates done on the 3808?

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0812:37 PM

The M60 is actually a little more laid back than the M80.

I can accept that some find Axioms offerings bright, but not harsh. There is something else at play here.

Can you give us the titles and labels for the reference recordings you find harsh? Can you also describe the room they are set up in? Are you in an apartment or a house? Lots of windows? Do you have wall coverings or are the walls bare...

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0812:58 PM

Some people do find Axioms harsh at high SPL, from some of the knocks against them on the web. Just as I find anything that is not as forward as Axiom to sound muffled. I don't like the M3 because of this.

I do agree that it does sound like there might be something else at play, maybe even a bad crossover/tweeter? Then again the OP states some cds sound good.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0801:37 PM

Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson

Random thoughts:

**I'm wondering if all drivers are firing or if there's a bass-management problem... dropping the bass and making the speakers sound bright. Bass seems to be fine, there is no lack of bass just very bright high end.

**What types of music do you listen to? I listen to all types of music but mostly pop and rock.

**If your MP3s are 256k and above, they're likely fine unless poorly compressed...I think the compression is alright, many I ripped from my own CDs. I use Exact Audio Copy and Lame

**Do you have a bright (barren, with hard surfaces) room? I do have hardwood floors and vaulted ceiling (10 ft.) but the room isn't barren, full of furniture, etc.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0801:43 PM

Try plugging a usb drive of somesort into the denon with a flac file on it and see fi it plays... if so then the problem must be with the network.

Can you list some albums you think sound bad? thanks.

Ok I put some flac files on a USB and plugged directly into the 3808. They show up there. Must be something going on with my media servers. I have a Synology, an HPMedia Vault and I have a drive on my local computer setup to share folders and they all show up through Denon interface but none of them display flac files. Not sure why but now I know it isn't the Denon.

I'll just stick to SACDs for now because they are the best recordings I have.Bright Sounding:Billy Joel The StrangerElton John Elton JohnElton John Tumbleweed ConnectionRoxy Music AvalonDire Straits Brothers In ArmsSheryl Crow The Globe Sessions

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0801:55 PM

Originally Posted By: fredk

The M60 is actually a little more laid back than the M80.

I can accept that some find Axioms offerings bright, but not harsh. There is something else at play here.

Can you give us the titles and labels for the reference recordings you find harsh? Can you also describe the room they are set up in? Are you in an apartment or a house? Lots of windows? Do you have wall coverings or are the walls bare...

I live in a house. I have hardwood floors, vaulted ceilings and the room is about 18w x 22d as best I recall without measuring. Lots of furniture, sofa, love seat, tables etc.

I usually listen somewhere between -25 and -18 not sure about the db level.

It seems it is most anything that has a lot of high range, especially female vocals like Sheryl Crow.

If I play Bela Fleck and the Flecktones "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" which is an mp3 (256k) d'loaded from Amazon it sounds amazing. Not a lot of upper range stuff and I use an HSU ULS-15 sub.

At someone's suggestion I did go in and check my tone and the treble was set at 0. If I turn it down to -5 or as far as it will go -6 some of the brightness goes away. I did use Audyssey.Here is a screen shot of the FL levels but it doesn't mean alot to me, maybe you guys will get something from it.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0802:23 PM

Lame-encoded, 256kbs+ MP3's should sound good. Maybe not perfect, but pretty darn good. But if your source CD itself sounds bad, then the rip will sound equally bad (or worse). If all of your hundreds of CD's sound bad, then I don't see how the problem could be in the mastering of *all* of them. Quite true that some CD's are mastered better than others, but they're not all badly done. Your CD's aren't all from one particular label or something strange like that, right?

Some people say that receivers & amps make a difference in the sound quality. Others say that it does not. Vigorous and heated debates have arisen between these two camps. We're generally a kind and respectful bunch around here, so it doesn't happen much here. But if you take a stroll over on some other, more general audio boards, you will find such debates.

You'll find similar debates about break-in. Some believe that speakers, receivers, amps, cables, kitchen forks, etc all need a break-in period to perform at their best. Others think that it's just the incredible adaptability of a human mind. You listen to it long enough, and you either get used to it or convince yourself that it sounds good. We adapt. That's what people do.

From my own personal, humanly-biased experience, I *do* actually believe that amps (and receivers) can 'color' the sound. And by color, I mean the differences between muddied, warm, neutral, cool, and shrill. I've been in listening rooms where I've heard the same source material, played through the same speakers but from different receivers (operating in a pass-through mode - no bass/treble/EQ trickery) switched back-to-back. And they sounded different. And I don't mean that the $x,xxx receiver always sounded better than the $xxx one. Not always. A piccolo trill might sound more piercing on receiver A, where a bass drum was more defined and clean on receiver B, where a vocals sounded more alive & focused on receiver C, etc, etc. Power specs? Distortion ratings? Magic Pixies? I don't know. But, IMHO, there are slight differences.

Really though, you've got a darn good receiver. All Denon's, but especially the 3808, are pretty highly regarded by everyone. If it were something less, a better receiver might help. My old, unable-to-cope-with-4-ohm-M80's Pioneer receiver would start to sound like crap as you cranked up the volume. An Emotiva amp completely solved that problem. But your 3803 is a robust and powerful beast.

As you know, Axiom speakers are designed to be 'neutral'. A few say they lean towards the reviled 'b' word, 'bright'. You might just prefer a 'warmer' sounding speaker, like B&W's or AV123 Rockets. And in that case, it makes sense that a tweeter resistor might make you happier with your Axioms.

Good luck. I hope you find a good solution so you can get back to enjoying the music!

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0802:23 PM

I think some room treatments would help in that reflective room. Try throwing a throw rug/remnant betweetn you and your speakers and/or panels on the side walls. Reflections arrive at your ears at different times skewing what you hear.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0802:34 PM

Originally Posted By: sirquack

I think some room treatments would help in that reflective room. Try throwing a throw rug/remnant betweetn you and your speakers and/or panels on the side walls. Reflections arrive at your ears at different times skewing what you hear.

Also, compressed audio is not the best, even at that bit rate.

I may try putting a rug or similar on the floor in front of the speakers but as far as putting something on the wall, well I have to deal with the WAF (wife approval factor ). The SACDs I have I don't Bitstream them I play them Multichannel LPCM. If the extra resistors are as easy to install/uninstall as stated in an earlier post I may give that a try. Nothing to lose

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0802:37 PM

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0802:42 PM

Originally Posted By: edmondwolfman

I did use Audyssey.Here is a screen shot of the FL levels but it doesn't mean alot to me, maybe you guys will get something from it.

The top end in that screen shot is out of sync with the low end, a typical Audyssey curve. The 63hz and 125hz could be boosted to the same as 250 hz and drop the 16khz to zero. But first I would turn off Audyssey and see if you like it better with no EQ going on, I think you might.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0802:44 PM

Originally Posted By: edmondwolfman

If this is what Audyssey set the levels too, then I'd definitely experiment with lowering the 8khz and 16khz levels - they're definitely higher than the rest of the spectrum and that could definitely be the culprit for the harshness you're hearing.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0802:52 PM

Originally Posted By: jakewash

Originally Posted By: edmondwolfman

I did use Audyssey.Here is a screen shot of the FL levels but it doesn't mean alot to me, maybe you guys will get something from it.

The top end in that screen shot is out of sync with the low end, a typical Audyssey curve. The 63hz and 125hz could be boosted to the same as 250 hz and drop the 16khz to zero. But first I would turn off Audyssey and see if you like it better with no EQ going on, I think you might.

Thanks for the feedback Jason. I will try that. I have tried with Audyssey turned off but the sound seems fuller with it on. I'll take your advice and tweak those levels and see if I can get what I'm after. I noticed something else also. I usually play music in the 5 channel stereo mode so all my speakers play. The levels for my surround A speakers are maxed out on the 4, 8 and 16khz levels. Some of that shrillness may be added to from the surround speakers so I'm going to adjust those levels also. I appreciate everyone's help.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0802:55 PM

Originally Posted By: AdamP88

Originally Posted By: edmondwolfman

If this is what Audyssey set the levels too, then I'd definitely experiment with lowering the 8khz and 16khz levels - they're definitely higher than the rest of the spectrum and that could definitely be the culprit for the harshness you're hearing.

Those levels are indeed what Audyssey set them to. Actually I lowered the 8 and 16khz by 1 or 2 but at the time wasn't sure about what I was doing or if I was screwing something up so I abandoned that route for the time being. I will go in and play with those as you guys suggested. Thanks again.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0802:57 PM

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0803:01 PM

Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth

Lame-encoded, 256kbs+ MP3's should sound good. Maybe not perfect, but pretty darn good. But if your source CD itself sounds bad, then the rip will sound equally bad (or worse). If all of your hundreds of CD's sound bad, then I don't see how the problem could be in the mastering of *all* of them. Quite true that some CD's are mastered better than others, but they're not all badly done. Your CD's aren't all from one particular label or something strange like that, right?

Some people say that receivers & amps make a difference in the sound quality. Others say that it does not. Vigorous and heated debates have arisen between these two camps. We're generally a kind and respectful bunch around here, so it doesn't happen much here. But if you take a stroll over on some other, more general audio boards, you will find such debates.

You'll find similar debates about break-in. Some believe that speakers, receivers, amps, cables, kitchen forks, etc all need a break-in period to perform at their best. Others think that it's just the incredible adaptability of a human mind. You listen to it long enough, and you either get used to it or convince yourself that it sounds good. We adapt. That's what people do.

From my own personal, humanly-biased experience, I *do* actually believe that amps (and receivers) can 'color' the sound. And by color, I mean the differences between muddied, warm, neutral, cool, and shrill. I've been in listening rooms where I've heard the same source material, played through the same speakers but from different receivers (operating in a pass-through mode - no bass/treble/EQ trickery) switched back-to-back. And they sounded different. And I don't mean that the $x,xxx receiver always sounded better than the $xxx one. Not always. A piccolo trill might sound more piercing on receiver A, where a bass drum was more defined and clean on receiver B, where a vocals sounded more alive & focused on receiver C, etc, etc. Power specs? Distortion ratings? Magic Pixies? I don't know. But, IMHO, there are slight differences.

Really though, you've got a darn good receiver. All Denon's, but especially the 3808, are pretty highly regarded by everyone. If it were something less, a better receiver might help. My old, unable-to-cope-with-4-ohm-M80's Pioneer receiver would start to sound like crap as you cranked up the volume. An Emotiva amp completely solved that problem. But your 3803 is a robust and powerful beast.

As you know, Axiom speakers are designed to be 'neutral'. A few say they lean towards the reviled 'b' word, 'bright'. You might just prefer a 'warmer' sounding speaker, like B&W's or AV123 Rockets. And in that case, it makes sense that a tweeter resistor might make you happier with your Axioms.

Good luck. I hope you find a good solution so you can get back to enjoying the music!

Thanks. I was considering getting the Emotiva XPA-5 but posters on another site said they thought the Denon 3808 was sufficient so I haven't gone that route yet. Personally I would have to believe that using the Emotiva XPA-5 would make everything sound better with the receiver processing the signals and the amp doing what it was made to do, drive the speakers but I may be crazy and the 3808 may be all I need.

That will definitely give you a different sound. I'd also experiment with regular stereo, so you know what you're messing with when you turn on the surround modes.

Do you have your SACD player hooked up over HDMI?

I use a PS3 80G for my SACD player and yes it it hooked up via HDMI. When playing my SACDs I use multi channel direct and stream Linear PCM to Denon. I only use the 5 channel stereo for mp3s and other 2 channel music. I will give the other methods you recommended a shot.

Since my last post I've pushed the treble down to -5 and lowered some of the 8khz and 16khz levels and I can already tell a difference. I'll play with them more when I get a chance.

Does anyone use the 3808 and if so can you post or tell me what the levels are for the fronts? I understand they will all be a little different because of room acoustics and such.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0803:42 PM

I think you should take as many variables out of the loop as possible for the moment and then build up. Listen in two channel stereo without the Audyssey and with the tone controls flat first. Then tweak the tone controls only. Then go from there.

It is certainly possible that you just don't like the way Axiom speakers sound. Such a circumstance is not an indictment of either you or Axiom.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0806:37 PM

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/03/0808:36 PM

I know Audyssey doesn't read bass frequencies very well which is why it always sets the sub too low. But from 4k down to about 300 it should be good. I wonder if there are some reflections going on in the mid frequencies causing an increase in the readings, to which Audyssey then accomodates for.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/04/0801:56 AM

Bobby, that rising frequency response isn't typical of the regular Audyssey correction. Are you sure that you didn't set the correction parameter to "flat"(which emphasizes the high frequencies more)rather than the normal "Audyssey" curve? A remote possibility would be a defective microphone reading the high frequencies too low and causing them to be boosted unnecessarily.

Also, as Ken suggested, don't use 5-channel stereo for normal music listening. The way to put the surrounds into action with 2-channel music material is to apply DPLII or similar ambience extraction processing.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/04/0810:39 AM

Originally Posted By: JohnK

Bobby, that rising frequency response isn't typical of the regular Audyssey correction. Are you sure that you didn't set the correction parameter to "flat"(which emphasizes the high frequencies more)rather than the normal "Audyssey" curve? A remote possibility would be a defective microphone reading the high frequencies too low and causing them to be boosted unnecessarily.

Also, as Ken suggested, don't use 5-channel stereo for normal music listening. The way to put the surrounds into action with 2-channel music material is to apply DPLII or similar ambience extraction processing.

I didn't have it set to flat it was set to "Audyssey". Do you think that I should maybe balance out the levels and see what I get?

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/04/0812:48 PM

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/15/0810:07 PM

Wolfman,

I had to give this thread a bump. Came across your post while poking around at work, and was amazed that someone else has the exact same problem I have. Same Setup, M60s and the vp100...receiver is an HK347 though. My complaint is the same...mp3s through computer via optical and cds via an Oppo 980 usually sound harsh. In my case, its generally the vocals that are noticeably off (I'm told the exact word is sibilant, but to me it makes singers sound like Sylvester from Looney tunes). I pretty much only listen to instrumental stuff now.

Did you get in touch with anyone at axiom? I'd be very interested to hear if the tweeter resistor option makes a difference.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/16/0810:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Bennett_Marco

Wolfman,

I had to give this thread a bump. Came across your post while poking around at work, and was amazed that someone else has the exact same problem I have. Same Setup, M60s and the vp100...receiver is an HK347 though. My complaint is the same...mp3s through computer via optical and cds via an Oppo 980 usually sound harsh. In my case, its generally the vocals that are noticeably off (I'm told the exact word is sibilant, but to me it makes singers sound like Sylvester from Looney tunes). I pretty much only listen to instrumental stuff now.

Did you get in touch with anyone at axiom? I'd be very interested to hear if the tweeter resistor option makes a difference.

I haven't gone the resistor route yet. What I've done so far is I've gone into each individual speaker "equalizer" setting and manually adjusted the higher frequency setting down to zero and adjusted some of the lower freqs up, pretty much made everything zero like suggested above. See the image of my FL speaker settings on a previous page. And backed the treble way off. Haven't had a chance to check all my music yet but what I have listened to sounds much better Will post back here after I have a chance to listen to more different types of music. I know what you mean though, for the most part my recordings of female singers would drive me out of the room if I applied any volume at all.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/29/0812:24 PM

I have Axiom M22 speakers with an inexpensive Yamaha sub woofer.My reciever is a Yamaha RX-V461. I play my MP3 files through an iPod using the special Yamaha iPod dock. (very cool, your music is displayed on the TV and you can control from the yamaha remote.) The reciever is set to straight 2 channel stereo. I use Nero v7 to create my mp3s at 320K highest quality dual mono. They sound fantastic.

I do have a bass issue, where the bass is only really deep in some parts of the room, luckily where i sit is just fine.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/29/0803:41 PM

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/29/0804:09 PM

You'll probably want to do a sub crawl first thing. Basically, you put the sub at your listening position, then crawl around the room until you find the spot that has the best bass. Then put the sub there.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/29/0805:20 PM

wow, your floors are made of glue!?!?!? ha, just the civil engineer comming out here... cement is like the binder or glue that goes into concrete. the floor is a concrete floor, which is composed fo cement, aggregate, and any admixtures. I can't help but correct someone when they call concrete "cement"

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/29/0805:54 PM

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/29/0806:30 PM

Originally Posted By: kcarlile

You'll probably want to do a sub crawl first thing. Basically, you put the sub at your listening position, then crawl around the room until you find the spot that has the best bass. Then put the sub there.

Re: Receiver to make M60s sound good? - 09/29/0806:37 PM

Originally Posted By: terzaghi

wow, your floors are made of glue!?!?!? ha, just the civil engineer comming out here... cement is like the binder or glue that goes into concrete. the floor is a concrete floor, which is composed fo cement, aggregate, and any admixtures. I can't help but correct someone when they call concrete "cement"

I guess I have to call those trucks concrete trucks from now on......

My floor is 95 years old so I wonder what was mixed to make this concrete. They sure didnt make it too flat. :-)