I would tell my kid when "he's old enough to go out at night by himself" that if he's ever being followed by a stranger, to (A) Run (B) Yell for help and (C) if caught? fight like hell! I don't think Trayvon did anything that I wouldn't instruct my own son to do.. Just sayin...

nekom:I Browse: Bontesla: But, to be honest, I'm not black. I know that many black parents teach their children to leave their wallets out in the open while in the car so as to avoid reaching near their belts.

I know that many black parents teach their children that running can raise suspicion so avoid running.

When I hear that Martin said he won't run but that he'll walk very fast, I'm reminded of that he could have been taught that.

I think Martin could have behaved differently to avoid his death. But I place a larger blame on Zimmerman.

I'm black and I was taught all of those things by my folks. But it was specifically about dealing with the police (and mostly what to do and not do while driving). My parents didn't really warn me about dealing with random strangers that I might encounter on the street. They probably didn't feel they had to.

Like most kids, when I was very young, I was taught about "stranger danger." But once I reached a certain age (I'd say around 12) I stopped worrying about that. Kidnapping just didn't seem like something that could happen to me anymore. I realize now that it absolutely could have...but that's not how I felt at the time. And the older I got, the more confident I was that I could handle myself. By the time I was 17? Pssh...you couldn't tell me shiat. I wasn't necessarily a baddass, but I definitely wasn't walking around worrying about my safety. And if I had encountered my own George Zimmerman...who knows? I might've felt just as indignant as Trayvon Martin did. Luckily for me, I was never put into that situation. And maybe that's why I'm able to sit here, as a 41 year old man, speculating about all this.

Wow. I heard a fascinating segment on NPR on that very thing, advice black kids specifically get from their parents on how to, for lack of a better phrase "deal with being black here", but I had no idea it was so wide-spread. They talked about things like never running with hands in your pocket, and other things like that. I'm sorry you have to live in a country where black parents feel the need to tell their children this, but well, I'd imagine if I were black I'd teach my kid the very same. Just because a situation is an injustice doesn't mean that it isn't reality.

You should probably pass much of that advice along anyway. Taking care when dealing with is a good instinct. You've got better odds of a fair shake if moths bump into you at night, but that's not the same as good odds.

Wow. I heard a fascinating segment on NPR on that very thing, advice black kids specifically get from their parents on how to, for lack of a better phrase "deal with being black here", but I had no idea it was so wide-spread. They talked about things like never running with hands in your pocket, and other things like that. ...

I would imagine that most parents, regardless of race, have to instruct their kids on how to function safely in society. My parents came of age in the 50's. So their experience was a hundred times more harsh than mine was, even though they grew up in a northern city.

Every generation has it a bit easier than the one before. But as this case illustrates...it's better to be over cautious than not.

MithrandirBooga:Popcorn Johnny: stoli n coke: The fact that none of Zimmerman's DNA showed up on Martin's hands or fingernails. That calls into question just how brutal the alleged beating was, considering that if someone was mercilessly pummeling someone the way they claim Martin was beating Zimmerman, it's odd that they couldn't find any of Zimmerman's blood or skin on Martin.

Just because Trayvon was throwing punches, doesn't mean Zimmerman wasn't attempting to block them. We know he landed one good shot, as we have a picture of Zimmerman's bloodied, broken nose. We also know that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, continuing to assault him.

Was Zimmerman supposed to wait for Trayvon to land a certain number of solid punches before being justified in using deadly force?

Since Zimmerman started the confrontation, no amount of backlash would ever justify using deadly force. That's just not how reality works.

And if you think it does, you're a farking psychopath.

I love how you claim Zimmerman started the confrontation when the only person who knows who started it for sure claims the opposite.

Speaking of psychopaths... people who claim to know things they couldn't possibly know, pretty high on that list.

wolfpaq777:MithrandirBooga: Popcorn Johnny: stoli n coke: The fact that none of Zimmerman's DNA showed up on Martin's hands or fingernails. That calls into question just how brutal the alleged beating was, considering that if someone was mercilessly pummeling someone the way they claim Martin was beating Zimmerman, it's odd that they couldn't find any of Zimmerman's blood or skin on Martin.

Just because Trayvon was throwing punches, doesn't mean Zimmerman wasn't attempting to block them. We know he landed one good shot, as we have a picture of Zimmerman's bloodied, broken nose. We also know that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, continuing to assault him.

Was Zimmerman supposed to wait for Trayvon to land a certain number of solid punches before being justified in using deadly force?

Since Zimmerman started the confrontation, no amount of backlash would ever justify using deadly force. That's just not how reality works.

And if you think it does, you're a farking psychopath.

I love how you claim Zimmerman started the confrontation when the only person who knows who started it for sure claims the opposite.

Speaking of psychopaths... people who claim to know things they couldn't possibly know, pretty high on that list.

Zimmerman also claimed he had no money. Then it was proven he was lying.

Ned Stark:nekom: I Browse: Bontesla: But, to be honest, I'm not black. I know that many black parents teach their children to leave their wallets out in the open while in the car so as to avoid reaching near their belts.

I know that many black parents teach their children that running can raise suspicion so avoid running.

When I hear that Martin said he won't run but that he'll walk very fast, I'm reminded of that he could have been taught that.

I think Martin could have behaved differently to avoid his death. But I place a larger blame on Zimmerman.

I'm black and I was taught all of those things by my folks. But it was specifically about dealing with the police (and mostly what to do and not do while driving). My parents didn't really warn me about dealing with random strangers that I might encounter on the street. They probably didn't feel they had to.

Like most kids, when I was very young, I was taught about "stranger danger." But once I reached a certain age (I'd say around 12) I stopped worrying about that. Kidnapping just didn't seem like something that could happen to me anymore. I realize now that it absolutely could have...but that's not how I felt at the time. And the older I got, the more confident I was that I could handle myself. By the time I was 17? Pssh...you couldn't tell me shiat. I wasn't necessarily a baddass, but I definitely wasn't walking around worrying about my safety. And if I had encountered my own George Zimmerman...who knows? I might've felt just as indignant as Trayvon Martin did. Luckily for me, I was never put into that situation. And maybe that's why I'm able to sit here, as a 41 year old man, speculating about all this.

Wow. I heard a fascinating segment on NPR on that very thing, advice black kids specifically get from their parents on how to, for lack of a better phrase "deal with being black here", but I had no idea it was so wide-spread. They talked about things like never running with hands in your pocket, and other things like that. I'm sorry you have to live in a country where black parents feel the need to tell their children this, but well, I'd imagine if I were black I'd teach my kid the very same. Just because a situation is an injustice doesn't mean that it isn't reality.

You should probably pass much of that advice along anyway. Taking care when dealing with is a good instinct. You've got better odds of a fair shake if moths bump into you at night, but that's not the same as good odds.

Something about hearing a commotion moving from left to right past her window. Something she never mentioned during any other interviews, but suddenly brought up in court today. The defense asked her to point out in her earlier statement to investigators where she mentioned it and she got a blank look on her face.

She also liked a "justice for Trayvon" page on Facebook.

That's an effective cross. What was she trying to establish?

Whether or not she liked a Facebook page is irrelevant. Most witnesses are biased and that, in and of itself, doesn't mean she sides against Zimmerman. Many people have stated that they'll accept whatever verdict is rendered - it was merely unjust to take no action. It would concern me if a juror did it but obviously not a witness.

Oh so this is the witness. She's adding testimony and signing petitions for prosecuting Zimmerman. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

What do you mean?

I'm going out on a limb here, but I think he's implying there are people who look like her (OJ jury) who are so racist they will say or do anything regardless of the truth to lynch Zimmerman. What did you think he meant.

Wow. I heard a fascinating segment on NPR on that very thing, advice black kids specifically get from their parents on how to, for lack of a better phrase "deal with being black here", but I had no idea it was so wide-spread. They talked about things like never running with hands in your pocket, and other things like that. ...

I would imagine that most parents, regardless of race, have to instruct their kids on how to function safely in society. My parents came of age in the 50's. So their experience was a hundred times more harsh than mine was, even though they grew up in a northern city.

Every generation has it a bit easier than the one before. But as this case illustrates...it's better to be over cautious than not.

My father once told me when he was younger, some neighbor's nephew, a black man, came to visit from Alabama. My dad was sitting out on his front porch, and I guess his aunt had told him "he's cool, don't worry", he asked him flat out "Hey, where can a black man get a beer around here?" This was in the early 1970s! But I guess even then, down in Alabama there were bars where, well if you were black you just knew it was best to stay out of. Not that it was in any way right, but hey right or wrong if I knew going into a certain bar would result in me getting my ass kicked by 8 rednecks, my ass is staying out of that bar too! My father told him the bar out the street was cool, there were lots of black people in town here, mostly families who came during the great migration of the 30s looking for work in the coal mine here. He was still nervous, so my dad went out and got a 6 pack and brought it back for him. That always floored me, I would have thought, sure in 1940 in Alabama it would be that way, but in the early 70's?

Well, the bar's gone now but if you ever find yourself out my way, I'd buy you a beer and we could swap stories.

Garble:kendelrio: Doesn't matter in this case. The question isn't "Who started the confrontation?". The question is "Did GZ fear for his life enough to use deadly force?"

If this is legally correct, how the fark is that supposed to work? The term self "defense" usually implies it's being done by the non-aggressor. If that's out the window, where does "defense" end?

Assuming things happened according to GZ's account, if the fight had gone the other way couldn't TM claim he had to beat GZ to death because he saw a gun and feared for his life?

In fact, couldn't you just start shooting at someone and if they fire back, kill them and claim self defense? I mean, they could have killed you with that deadly force they were using to defend themselves...

I'll try and explain this.

If someone starts a simple fistfight or a shoving match with you, then you have the right to defend yourself with equal force, or the least amount of force as necessary to get them to stop doing it. If you defend yourself with too much force, or force that is way out of proportion with what they used against you, then you have escalated the situation and they can actually start legally defending themselves against you. Let's take it one step further, say they start a shoving match with you and you start beating them so badly (or pull a weapon) that the fight is now life or death. The law says that you have now forfeited your right to use self defense, and that person can now use deadly force to defend themselves against you IF they first back away from the fight and tell you they are done fighting, or you have them trapped or pinned to the point where they cannot escape you.

HOWEVER, and this is the key, in Florida and in a lot of other states, you only get the right to use self defense if you haven't committed a violent felony in starting the fight. For example, the person that started the shoving match or fistfight is still entitled to self-defense because those are misdemeanors. A person that starts shooting at people in the hopes that they would shoot back at them so he could then legally shoot them will actually have lost his right to self-defense because the initial shooting at people is a violent felony. This is why people aren't able to go around shooting each other willy-nilly as some have speculated. The ability of someone who starts a fight to use self defense is very limited and its only in rare circumstances that you will see it successfully used.

And again, as an important side note, NONE OF THIS has anything to do with "Stand Your Ground". This is the plain old doctrine of self defense as it has existed for decades.

Bontesla:Whether or not she liked a Facebook page is irrelevant. Most witnesses are biased and that, in and of itself, doesn't mean she sides against Zimmerman. Many people have stated that they'll accept whatever verdict is rendered - it was merely unjust to take no action. It would concern me if a juror did it but obviously not a witness.

Does any of her testimony help support Zimmerman?

Apparently several of her earlier depositions had statements of (iirc) someone traveling from the left to the right behind her house. That led to the conclusion that TM returned towards the direction of GZ before the shooting. Suddenly, she doesn't remember saying that at all, even though it was documented, and she previously reviewed the documents.

BraveNewCheneyWorld:Bontesla: Whether or not she liked a Facebook page is irrelevant. Most witnesses are biased and that, in and of itself, doesn't mean she sides against Zimmerman. Many people have stated that they'll accept whatever verdict is rendered - it was merely unjust to take no action. It would concern me if a juror did it but obviously not a witness.

Does any of her testimony help support Zimmerman?

Apparently several of her earlier depositions had statements of (iirc) someone traveling from the left to the right behind her house. That led to the conclusion that TM returned towards the direction of GZ before the shooting. Suddenly, she doesn't remember saying that at all, even though it was documented, and she previously reviewed the documents.

Marcus Aurelius:ChaosStar: It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does

Or hew did that to himself afterward in order to make a murder look like self defense.

I addressed this before, but when exactly would he have injured himself? Was it in front of the witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman? it didn't seem like he had a lot of time to falsify his injuries, especially with the police on the way

BraveNewCheneyWorld:Bontesla: Whether or not she liked a Facebook page is irrelevant. Most witnesses are biased and that, in and of itself, doesn't mean she sides against Zimmerman. Many people have stated that they'll accept whatever verdict is rendered - it was merely unjust to take no action. It would concern me if a juror did it but obviously not a witness.

Does any of her testimony help support Zimmerman?

Apparently several of her earlier depositions had statements of (iirc) someone traveling from the left to the right behind her house. That led to the conclusion that TM returned towards the direction of GZ before the shooting. Suddenly, she doesn't remember saying that at all, even though it was documented, and she previously reviewed the documents.

No, she never said that in the previous depositions.She said it on the stand today, which meant it was brand new evidence. The defense grilled her on why she would say it on the stand today but never before, they even went through the documents after she couldn't remember if today was the first time she had ever said it.Even after going through the documents, they asked her again if it was the first time she had ever said it and she said no, so they asked her again who the first person she said it to and she said her sister. Her body language told me she had been caught, knew she hadn't said it, but knew it damaged Zimmerman in some way so she tried her best to keep it out there.This is why they brought up not just the Facebook page she liked but a petition at MoveOn.org that she signed to "prosecute the killer of our son, Trayvon Martin". She pretended she didn't know what the defense was talking about until they showed it to her on a laptop.

Bontesla:Popcorn Johnny: So this witness who just finished on the stand came into court with new information that they had never mentioned prior to this and they also signed a Change.org petition asking for the prosecution of Zimmerman?

So, when does she get charged with perjury?

Details! What information?

I was listening to the trial and it seems she said on the stand that she initially saw movement from left to right, where in her prior statements she did not say it was from left to right. It was a very boring multi-hour line of pointless questioning. Unless I missed something at the end it didn't seem to really go anywhere. The defense lawyer also kept asking questions trying to get an answer that he could point to as the witness being coached, but that failed to go anywhere either. The defense attorney also pressed her about having hit "like" on a "Justice for Trayvon" facebook page. Whether that actually has any impact on the jury will remain to be seen.

From all of it it seemed the defense doesn't like her assertion that at first she saw two men standing and arms flailing and that was why they are trying to discredit her testimony. The defense wants push the narrative that the entire confrontation consisted of Martin being on top of Zimmerman.

Abuse Liability:Marcus Aurelius: ChaosStar: It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does

Or hew did that to himself afterward in order to make a murder look like self defense.

I addressed this before, but when exactly would he have injured himself? Was it in front of the witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman? it didn't seem like he had a lot of time to falsify his injuries, especially with the police on the way

Abuse Liability:Marcus Aurelius: ChaosStar: It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does

Or hew did that to himself afterward in order to make a murder look like self defense.

I addressed this before, but when exactly would he have injured himself? Was it in front of the witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman? it didn't seem like he had a lot of time to falsify his injuries, especially with the police on the way

Unless he saw that episode of Walking Dead where a character does the same thing, I honestly don't think Zimmerman would be cunning enough to fake his injuries in the heat of the moment. That being said, he claimed to be hit 20-30 times by Martin. Unless Trayvon had marshmallows for knuckles, I would think Zimm would look a lot worse.

Bontesla:BraveNewCheneyWorld: Bontesla: Whether or not she liked a Facebook page is irrelevant. Most witnesses are biased and that, in and of itself, doesn't mean she sides against Zimmerman. Many people have stated that they'll accept whatever verdict is rendered - it was merely unjust to take no action. It would concern me if a juror did it but obviously not a witness.

Does any of her testimony help support Zimmerman?

Apparently several of her earlier depositions had statements of (iirc) someone traveling from the left to the right behind her house. That led to the conclusion that TM returned towards the direction of GZ before the shooting. Suddenly, she doesn't remember saying that at all, even though it was documented, and she previously reviewed the documents.

Interesting.Thank you.

Actually it was just the opposite. The defense asked when she first said "left to right" and she said she didn't recall. He then asked if she had said it in her taped statements to police and investigators to which she still said she didn't recall. They then went to the transcripts which did not contain "left to right" and she looked over them and didn't find that phrase. The defense attorney then asked if it could have been in her testimony today that she first said it. She thought she might have said it to her sister at some point but wasn't sure. I think she then agreed that it is possible it was the first time she mentioned it.

So it was not that she said "left to right" previously and didn't say it on the stand, it was that she said "left to right' on the stand and had not said it in prior recorded statements.

MagSeven:Abuse Liability: Marcus Aurelius: ChaosStar: It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does

Or hew did that to himself afterward in order to make a murder look like self defense.

I addressed this before, but when exactly would he have injured himself? Was it in front of the witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman? it didn't seem like he had a lot of time to falsify his injuries, especially with the police on the way

Unless he saw that episode of Walking Dead where a character does the same thing, I honestly don't think Zimmerman would be cunning enough to fake his injuries in the heat of the moment. That being said, he claimed to be hit 20-30 times by Martin. Unless Trayvon had marshmallows for knuckles, I would think Zimm would look a lot worse.

Only if he did nothing to block the incoming blows as most do in ground and pound situations

Thrag:Bontesla: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Bontesla: Whether or not she liked a Facebook page is irrelevant. Most witnesses are biased and that, in and of itself, doesn't mean she sides against Zimmerman. Many people have stated that they'll accept whatever verdict is rendered - it was merely unjust to take no action. It would concern me if a juror did it but obviously not a witness.

Does any of her testimony help support Zimmerman?

Apparently several of her earlier depositions had statements of (iirc) someone traveling from the left to the right behind her house. That led to the conclusion that TM returned towards the direction of GZ before the shooting. Suddenly, she doesn't remember saying that at all, even though it was documented, and she previously reviewed the documents.

Interesting.Thank you.

Actually it was just the opposite. The defense asked when she first said "left to right" and she said she didn't recall. He then asked if she had said it in her taped statements to police and investigators to which she still said she didn't recall. They then went to the transcripts which did not contain "left to right" and she looked over them and didn't find that phrase. The defense attorney then asked if it could have been in her testimony today that she first said it. She thought she might have said it to her sister at some point but wasn't sure. I think she then agreed that it is possible it was the first time she mentioned it.

So it was not that she said "left to right" previously and didn't say it on the stand, it was that she said "left to right' on the stand and had not said it in prior recorded statements.

ChaosStar:It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does.

I have to say that after seeing the photos in the trial I'm having a hard time believing that his head was being bashed on the sidewalk at the time he shot Martin. Unless he moved Martin's body after shooting him the body was a few feet away from the sidewalk. This isn't to say that he wasn't bashing his head on the ground and he hit a rock or it happened prior to them getting to that spot, but I was under the impression from Zimmerman's description that it was happening on the sidewalk when he decided to shoot.

Abuse Liability:MagSeven: Abuse Liability: Marcus Aurelius: ChaosStar: It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does

Or hew did that to himself afterward in order to make a murder look like self defense.

I addressed this before, but when exactly would he have injured himself? Was it in front of the witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman? it didn't seem like he had a lot of time to falsify his injuries, especially with the police on the way

Unless he saw that episode of Walking Dead where a character does the same thing, I honestly don't think Zimmerman would be cunning enough to fake his injuries in the heat of the moment. That being said, he claimed to be hit 20-30 times by Martin. Unless Trayvon had marshmallows for knuckles, I would think Zimm would look a lot worse.

Only if he did nothing to block the incoming blows as most do in ground and pound situations

I saw a plausible explanation about the facial injury being the result of firing the gun. The lacerations to the back of the head could very well be from Zimmerman's head hitting the pavement or a rock during the physical altercation.

Bontesla:I saw a plausible explanation about the facial injury being the result of firing the gun. The lacerations to the back of the head could very well be from Zimmerman's head hitting the pavement or a rock during the physical altercation.

Maybe aliens came down, kicked Zimmerman's ass and then shot Trayvon. Then they wiped Zimmerman's mind and planted the gun in his hand.

ununcle:Thrag: So it was not that she said "left to right" previously and didn't say it on the stand, it was that she said "left to right' on the stand and had not said it in prior recorded statements.

Popcorn Johnny:Bontesla: I saw a plausible explanation about the facial injury being the result of firing the gun. The lacerations to the back of the head could very well be from Zimmerman's head hitting the pavement or a rock during the physical altercation.

Maybe aliens came down, kicked Zimmerman's ass and then shot Trayvon. Then they wiped Zimmerman's mind and planted the gun in his hand.

Well, that's probably less plausible but whatever you'd like to believe...

Bontesla:Popcorn Johnny: Bontesla: I saw a plausible explanation about the facial injury being the result of firing the gun. The lacerations to the back of the head could very well be from Zimmerman's head hitting the pavement or a rock during the physical altercation.

Maybe aliens came down, kicked Zimmerman's ass and then shot Trayvon. Then they wiped Zimmerman's mind and planted the gun in his hand.

Well, that's probably less plausible but whatever you'd like to believe...

It's just as plausible. A 9mm isn't going to hit anyone Zimmerman's size in the face from being fired. Even if it did, it wouldn't even have enough momentum to injure someone visibly. A 9mm is a very light round.

optimistic_cynic:ChaosStar: It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does.

I have to say that after seeing the photos in the trial I'm having a hard time believing that his head was being bashed on the sidewalk at the time he shot Martin. Unless he moved Martin's body after shooting him the body was a few feet away from the sidewalk. This isn't to say that he wasn't bashing his head on the ground and he hit a rock or it happened prior to them getting to that spot, but I was under the impression from Zimmerman's description that it was happening on the sidewalk when he decided to shoot.

Calling it a sidewalk makes people think it's beside the road.Martin's body is about 3-5ft from the concrete pathway, depending on what part you want to reference on the body.Having been shot, Martin probably went backwards from his knees, falling to his rump and got short of breath. Laying down before passing away.Zimmerman said that after he fired the shot he threw himself on top of Martin to subdue him, not knowing he was dead.The photo looked, to me, to support that the story was plausible.

The defense also pointed out lumps on Zimmerman's head in the photos that one of the scene people (I can't remember her title) agreed with.

Bontesla:I saw a plausible explanation about the facial injury being the result of firing the gun. The lacerations to the back of the head could very well be from Zimmerman's head hitting the pavement or a rock during the physical altercation.

It's not plausible at all.Zimmerman carried a 9mm, not know for its recoil. Most people who talk about the gun hitting him are looking at Youtube videos of people firing .50 caliber handguns, mostly by underweight females or people holding the gun wrong.Zimmerman also wouldn't have been firing in a position where the gun could hit him in the face. Imagine yourself laying on your back, someone is straddling you and leaning over you slightly. If you put your arm out like you're going to fully extend to fire the gun you will push your arm through their body.Zimmerman had two black eyes and a closed fracture of the nose, you don't get that from a 9mm KelTec.

Bontesla:Popcorn Johnny: Bontesla: I saw a plausible explanation about the facial injury being the result of firing the gun. The lacerations to the back of the head could very well be from Zimmerman's head hitting the pavement or a rock during the physical altercation.

Maybe aliens came down, kicked Zimmerman's ass and then shot Trayvon. Then they wiped Zimmerman's mind and planted the gun in his hand.

Well, that's probably less plausible but whatever you'd like to believe...

Occam's razor people. Don't like twenty farkers have some variation of that as their handle?

ChaosStar:optimistic_cynic: ChaosStar: It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does.

I have to say that after seeing the photos in the trial I'm having a hard time believing that his head was being bashed on the sidewalk at the time he shot Martin. Unless he moved Martin's body after shooting him the body was a few feet away from the sidewalk. This isn't to say that he wasn't bashing his head on the ground and he hit a rock or it happened prior to them getting to that spot, but I was under the impression from Zimmerman's description that it was happening on the sidewalk when he decided to shoot.

Calling it a sidewalk makes people think it's beside the road.Martin's body is about 3-5ft from the concrete pathway, depending on what part you want to reference on the body.Having been shot, Martin probably went backwards from his knees, falling to his rump and got short of breath. Laying down before passing away.Zimmerman said that after he fired the shot he threw himself on top of Martin to subdue him, not knowing he was dead.The photo looked, to me, to support that the story was plausible.

The defense also pointed out lumps on Zimmerman's head in the photos that one of the scene people (I can't remember her title) agreed with.

Yeah I was talking about the pathway. Martin was first discovered face down so falling back is iffy. I thought it was stated that he was on top of martin who was face down. So my assumption is that he just slid out from under then on top.

Some of those lumps were interesting as many people have natural bumps like that, can even feel some on my own head with a full head of hair. It will be interesting to hear medical testimony around those images.

BraveNewCheneyWorld:Bontesla: Popcorn Johnny: Bontesla: I saw a plausible explanation about the facial injury being the result of firing the gun. The lacerations to the back of the head could very well be from Zimmerman's head hitting the pavement or a rock during the physical altercation.

Maybe aliens came down, kicked Zimmerman's ass and then shot Trayvon. Then they wiped Zimmerman's mind and planted the gun in his hand.

Well, that's probably less plausible but whatever you'd like to believe...

It's just as plausible. A 9mm isn't going to hit anyone Zimmerman's size in the face from being fired. Even if it did, it wouldn't even have enough momentum to injure someone visibly. A 9mm is a very light round.

A very light round in the midst of an altercation. It would take a little more to exercise control over the gun given the circumstances. There's a substantial enough recoil to certainly have caused the injuries.

It's entirely possible that the Prosecution won't even call into question the origins. We're not talking about a straight line shot several feet of Zimmerman. An unexperienced marksman trying to get a shot off in the midst of a struggle may not remember the recoil being so intense, his hands could be wet with either sweat or rain, etc.

But it would be silly to immediately pretend that it's outside the realm of possibilities.

Again, the law states: "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

So it does matter who started the fight.

"has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.Please note the law makes no distinction between aggressor and agressee(?).

optimistic_cynic:ChaosStar: optimistic_cynic: ChaosStar: It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does.

I have to say that after seeing the photos in the trial I'm having a hard time believing that his head was being bashed on the sidewalk at the time he shot Martin. Unless he moved Martin's body after shooting him the body was a few feet away from the sidewalk. This isn't to say that he wasn't bashing his head on the ground and he hit a rock or it happened prior to them getting to that spot, but I was under the impression from Zimmerman's description that it was happening on the sidewalk when he decided to shoot.

Calling it a sidewalk makes people think it's beside the road.Martin's body is about 3-5ft from the concrete pathway, depending on what part you want to reference on the body.Having been shot, Martin probably went backwards from his knees, falling to his rump and got short of breath. Laying down before passing away.Zimmerman said that after he fired the shot he threw himself on top of Martin to subdue him, not knowing he was dead.The photo looked, to me, to support that the story was plausible.

The defense also pointed out lumps on Zimmerman's head in the photos that one of the scene people (I can't remember her title) agreed with.

Yeah I was talking about the pathway. Martin was first discovered face down so falling back is iffy. I thought it was stated that he was on top of martin who was face down. So my assumption is that he just slid out from under then on top.

Some of those lumps were interesting as many people have natural bumps like that, can even feel some on my own head with a full head of hair. It will be interesting to hear medical testimony around those images.

"I shot him, and I didn't think I hit him because he sat up and said, 'Oh you got me. You got me, you got it,'" said Zimmerman during a nearly 20-minute re-enactment shot by investigators at the scene of the shooting the next day.Just picture it. Martin is straddling Zimmerman while on his knees, Zimmerman's body is on the grass but his head is on the concrete, meaning Martin is facing the path in some capacity. Martin is shot through the left ventricle, winded, he goes backwards to his rump "sitting up" and says "you got me, etc". At this point Zimmerman could have assisted him a bit by kicking out from underneath him pushing him back further.Martin can't catch his breath, he lays down on his side and expires, rolling onto his face.

optimistic_cynic:Some of those lumps were interesting as many people have natural bumps like that, can even feel some on my own head with a full head of hair. It will be interesting to hear medical testimony around those images.

Well that would be fairly easy to figure out. Rub his head and see if they're still there :D

ChaosStar:"I shot him, and I didn't think I hit him because he sat up and said, 'Oh you got me. You got me, you got it,'" said Zimmerman during a nearly 20-minute re-enactment shot by investigators at the scene of the shooting the next day.

ChaosStar:optimistic_cynic: Some of those lumps were interesting as many people have natural bumps like that, can even feel some on my own head with a full head of hair. It will be interesting to hear medical testimony around those images.

Well that would be fairly easy to figure out. Rub his head and see if they're still there :D

That's exactly what I was thinking, or making him shave his head in court. :)