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Is it worth having a pre-evolution corner for Onix? With different typing, Eviolite, and a possible resurgence after being transferred in from Red Blue or Yellow...

Edit: oh my word, look at all those weaknesses! I knew Rock-Ground was weak to a lot but didn't realize how much until now. Definitely a boost for Steelix in comparison. Also since most of the moves of those respective types are special and Onix's special defense is weak....yeesh...

Last edited by Italianbaptist; 7th May 2017 at 1:45 PM.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life

In ORAS, Mega Steelix came out and the first thing you might have noticed is that its overall bulk is better than that of Mega Aggron. Sounds great, right? We all know how well Mega Aggron can take a hit. But unfortunately, Mega Steelix ran into a few problems. First of all, it has Sand Force which, while nice in a Sandstorm, isn't as consistently useful to a physical wall as Mega Aggron's Filter. Second, Steelix is Steel/Ground, which comes with a few more weaknesses and few extra resistances. Third, it's slow; base 30 outpaces pretty much nothing outside of Trick Room. And finally, it just doesn't have the movepool to be a good wall, with no recovery options and few support moves. Instead, it works best as a sort of mix between a hazard setter and a physical tank.

Gen 7 hasn't really given Mega Steelix any significant new options, so basically you're just recycling the old strategy:

It should be noted that this set assumes Mega Steelix would still be facing off against UU threats in Gen 7, which I doubt it will. That said, the EV and Nature spread here is designed to allow you to survive a Sheer Force Life Orb Flare Blitz from Darmanitan after Stealth Rocks, which fortunately Mega Steelix doesn't mind too much. If Darmanitan will not be in the same arena, you can put more investment into SpD or Atk, depending on how you build your moveset. Chances are Mega Steelix will get at least one turn, so Stealth Rocks will be your first move. Heavy Slam is an obvious choice given Mega Steelix's insane weight. Earthquake is another STAB and hits other Steel-types hard. For the last slot, you'll usually want a support move; Steelix makes for a fine phaser with Roar and Toxic will let you bring down opposing physical walls. Stone Edge can be used in the last two slots optionally, either to broaden your coverage or to hit aerial targets. The basic strategy is to bring Mega Steelix into a physical attacker and either whittle it down, kill it outright, or force it to switch.

This set is easy to circumvent, unfortunately; just bring in a special attacker with super effective attacks and that's it. Alternatively, burn it, Mega Steelix has no recovery and will go down easily enough. Other options for Meag Steelix include Rock Slide for accuracy and PP or the Curse/Gyro Ball set that regular Steelix uses. However, be aware that without Leftovers the Curse/Gyro Ball set loses much of its effectiveness.

Heavy Slam over Earthquake because it doesn't have immunities like EQ does. Curse will be the first thing you spam until you need to Rest so you don't waste Heavy Slam's PP too early on. This Pokemon can easily be your win condition if its checks and counters are gone. Seriously, it's terrifying and I love using it.

----------------

Originally Posted by Italianbaptist

Is it worth having a pre-evolution corner for Onix? With different typing, Eviolite, and a possible resurgence after being transferred in from Red Blue or Yellow...

Edit: oh my word, look at all those weaknesses! I knew Rock-Ground was weak to a lot but didn't realize how much until now. Definitely a boost for Steelix in comparison. Also since most of the moves of those respective types are special and Onix's special defense is weak....yeesh...

Despite all those weaknesses, Onix is still used a lot in LC. It's like, within the top 15 or something? With Sturdy+Berry Juice, it guarantees it lives for at least 3 turns even when hit by a water/grass move each time so it can set up hazards (but that's assuming its HP doesn't go above 20 and I'm not sure if it does). I can't suggest anything that Smogon hasn't already though.

Seeing as they skipped the only viable webs user in little cup last week. There wasn't anything for Trubbish or Froakie either. I wouldn't get my hopes up for Onix getting a set. I think the only LC legal mon they mentioned was Eevee and that was a VGC set.

Honestly it seems like Serebii's POTW has shifted focus almost exclusively to Battlespot Singles and VGC.

Seeing as they skipped the only viable webs user in little cup last week. There wasn't anything for Trubbish or Froakie either. I wouldn't get my hopes up for Onix getting a set. I think the only LC legal mon they mentioned was Eevee and that was a VGC set.

Honestly it seems like Serebii's POTW has shifted focus almost exclusively to Battlespot Singles and VGC.

I honestly don't know what they're focusing on anymore. They also seem to be following Smogon rules like the Baton Pass ban in some cases like Espeon and Masquerain, but not for Eevee. Honestly, Onix is crap outside of a LC where only unevolved stuff is present. It is completely outclassed by Eviolite Rhydon in everything it does. Rhydon has more bulk and actual offensive presence, and a better speed tier for Trick Room. It's also outclassed by Steelix, Steelix has better bulk even counting Eviolite (but not counting Sandstorm for the special bulk), a better speed tier for Trick Room, more offensive presence, Leftovers, and arguably a better typing.

Personally I don't really understand why Serebii somewhat wants to follow Smogon rules anyway. Smogon already has analysis and forums and everything for battling under those rules and tiers, Serebii also doing it adds pretty much nothing. Why doesn't Serebii focus on other formats more like Alola Dex-only battles without mega evolutions, 3v3 singles, 4v4 doubles, those kinds of formats? The formats of actual tournaments that are happening every month.

I honestly don't know what they're focusing on anymore. They also seem to be following Smogon rules like the Baton Pass ban in some cases like Espeon and Masquerain, but not for Eevee. Honestly, Onix is crap outside of a LC where only unevolved stuff is present. It is completely outclassed by Eviolite Rhydon in everything it does. Rhydon has more bulk and actual offensive presence, and a better speed tier for Trick Room. It's also outclassed by Steelix, Steelix has better bulk even counting Eviolite (but not counting Sandstorm for the special bulk), a better speed tier for Trick Room, more offensive presence, Leftovers, and arguably a better typing.

Personally I don't really understand why Serebii somewhat wants to follow Smogon rules anyway. Smogon already has analysis and forums and everything for battling under those rules and tiers, Serebii also doing it adds pretty much nothing. Why doesn't Serebii focus on other formats more like Alola Dex-only battles without mega evolutions, 3v3 singles, 4v4 doubles, those kinds of formats? The formats of actual tournaments that are happening every month.

Read the Eevee analysis again. There is no Baton Pass ban in VGC.

I don't want to completely derail the talk about Steelix, but I don't think smogon is ever actually mentioned once in an article, so most singles formats are able to somewhat base their sets of these. And the official format, VGC, gets an article for every legal and relevant Pokemon, so I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly :/

This isn't meant to single anyone out, but given that these questions come up every once and awhile I just want to clarify things. We're a weekly article group with 3 currently active writers so any comparisons to Smogon C&C (which has dozens of contributors at different levels that aren't on a weekly schedule) are kind of a moot point.

Keep in mind that a lot of the Pokemon that come up are average at best in the usual Singles settings (see: every week recently after Weavile), which means relevant information is usually given relative to any setting where you might actually see that Pokemon. Hence why Smogon stuff like Baton Pass or other similar bans are sometimes mentioned, but there's a reason there's never an explicit mention of Smogon itself (i.e. we're not Smogon). These aren't meant to be designed solely for a specific format (aside from the Doubles section which is VGC when applicable) and are usually instead more broadly applicable sets with mentions of alternatives that may only apply in Battle Spot (OHKO moves, Item Clause) or only in Smogon formats (Baton Pass Clause).

Originally Posted by Sceptile Leaf Blade

Smogon already has analysis and forums and everything for battling under those rules and tiers, Serebii also doing it adds pretty much nothing.

The thing with this argument though is that Smogon also has analyses and forums for VGC and Battle Spot as well, and I myself am also a primary contributor of the latter. That doesn't necessarily make what's covered here worthless though, especially considering there are people that hate using Smogon resources out of principle, so having some overlap isn't an issue. They also don't necessarily have analyses for everything before we get to it, as with Steelix.

More relevantly to this PotW though, remember that there is still a community contribution element. Even if what you say here isn't explicitly mentioned in the actual article, we do read these threads (or at least I do) and if something relevant is mentioned that I wasn't already thinking of, I will probably say something about it. This applies to pre-evolutions too, if you think a pre-evolution is relevant then talk about it. If it isn't relevant then at worst people will tell you the Pokemon sucks. Onix is definitely viable in a LC setting so unless whoever ends up writing this is strapped for time it will probably get a section.

This isn't meant to single anyone out, but given that these questions come up every once and awhile I just want to clarify things. We're a weekly article group with 3 currently active writers so any comparisons to Smogon C&C (which has dozens of contributors at different levels that aren't on a weekly schedule) are kind of a moot point.

Keep in mind that a lot of the Pokemon that come up are average at best in the usual Singles settings (see: every week recently after Weavile), which means relevant information is usually given relative to any setting where you might actually see that Pokemon. Hence why Smogon stuff like Baton Pass or other similar bans are sometimes mentioned, but there's a reason there's never an explicit mention of Smogon itself (i.e. we're not Smogon). These aren't meant to be designed solely for a specific format (aside from the Doubles section which is VGC when applicable) and are usually instead more broadly applicable sets with mentions of alternatives that may only apply in Battle Spot (OHKO moves, Item Clause) or only in Smogon formats (Baton Pass Clause).

Seems pretty straightforward, especially for pokemon that aren't viable in Battle Spot or VGC. Just talk about them in comparison to the stuff that's viable in the same tiers. For example its better to tall about how much damage non-mega steelix can do to Piloswine, not Tapu Lele. But don't explicitly mention NU or Smogon. But Little Cup is kind of an odd example since its not really a tier that is supported officially. Onix and Surskit are only viable in a Little Cup setting, so its tough to talk about them without referring to Showdown. And a lot of pokemon are much more prominent in LC than their evolved forms are in higher tiers and official formats like Chinchou and Anorith.

To be honest the analysis of a single pokemon is flawed at best anyway. The set that looks the best on a pokemon when its isolated is rarely the one that fits best on a specific team. Every standard set for steelix has a steel move, but if your team has trouble with fire types, its often better to run earthquake or stone edge instead. Even an obscure move like Ice Fang could be useful on Mega Steelix if you're team is having problems with moxie salamence or something.

Steelix is one of the most potent physical walls in the game, having as much DEF as Regirock, and only beaten out by Shuckle, Mega Aggron and its own Mega Evolution. So the obvious solution is to hit it with special attacks. 75/65 Special bulk is poor and two of its weaknesses (Fire and Water) are commonly special. Charizard is a great example, resisting both of Steelix's STABs and can quickly cook it with a Special STAB (though considering Steelix's access to Stealth Rock and Rock attacks prevents Charizard from being a perfect counter). Magmortar, Ninetails, Pyroar, Omastar and Manectric with Flamethrower can all quickly roast Steelix, but due to Sturdy and Earthquake means that Steelix has to be weakened first and they need a free switch or Air Balloon. Gastrodon and Weezing are not bothered by Steelix's offenses and can extinguish it with STAB Water moves/Flamethrower/Will-o-Wisp. Speaking of Will-o-Wisp, that will ruin any offensive presence Steelix has outside of Toxic. Though note that it's usefulness is mitigated on RestTalk Varients. Setting up on Steelix is also an option -barring the rare all out offensive sets, one can generally use steelix to setup as its offenses are not that impressive and easily blocked STABs (though physical boosting sets WILL lose out to Curselix unless they have a strong Super Effective STAB move). Sandslash, Hariyama, Torterra (Curse+Earthquake). It should be noted that Steelix has phazing options in the form of Roar and Dragon Tail and commonly carries Toxic, meaning boosting can quickly come to naught.

Last edited by Mestorn; 13th May 2017 at 1:09 PM.
Reason: I really need to follow my own advice.

I was once routed by a Gengar who critted 4 times in a row on my team. Morale of the story; Crits happen and Sucker Punch is good Gengar repellent.

This is standard Onix, it's one of the better leads in LC since it's fast and it gets one of the better abilities in the LC metagame in sturdy basically giving it a whole extra life and a second chance to get up Stealth rock, but Onix can be used in all phases of the game and is not just restricted to leading off. It's also pretty good counter for Electric and Flying types in the tier, and can be used to be a last resort check to a shell smash sweeper as long as sturdy is still intact.

Moveset wise it has solid dual stab coverage with rock blast being good to break through sturdy and subs. A fast Taunt can shut down alot of commons things in the tier from setting up hazards or stat boosting. Stealth Rock is required to provide that support for your team. Onix is very reliant on team support to do it's job well as it can't do much of anything to most water and grass types in the tier (Staryu being the best example of that).

This is an Onix set I made up and have used in LC quite a few times, it looks gimmicky on paper but it's unexpected and effective. SR is great as always along with STAB Earthquake. Dragon Tail is a unexpected choice that can get momentum back on your side when they try to switch in a check/counter to Onix and HP Fire is mainly for Ferroseed which is a common switch in to Onix but HP Fire can do solid damage to other Grass types in the tier