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If ANYONE here would like to present an alternative theory for the origins of the "pattern" that became the menorah, I would LOVE to see it and their corresponding evidence.

I have presented such an alternative theory. It is every bit as well-supported by facts as yours. The stars are right there in the sky; anyone can look at them, and they really do form the pattern of the menorah shape when connected in the manner I have suggested.

But it's also more plausible than yours at the outset. Where does the Torah say the design of the menorah came from? From YHWH. Where does the Torah say YHWH dwells? Let's make that a multiple choice question:

a) In a powerful city-state that's a military rival to ancient Athens
b) In an ancient lost city submerged under the sea
c) In a bunch of rocks in Spain with carvings on them
d) In the heavens

The correct answer is d. (If you answered b, you've mixed up YHWH with Cthulhu, and you should stop that.) So when YHWH showed His chosen people the pattern for the menorah (or if you prefer, when worshippers of YHWH wrote a story about how YHWH showed them the pattern), what better place and manner to show them than in the heavens, the night sky? Especially since the pattern was for a lamp, an arrangement of lights. That's what the stars and planets in the sky are, to ancient peoples: an arrangement of lights in the "firmament."

I've been gone for about a week and was hoping to finally see some evidence linking Atlantis to the menorah (either through some ruins in Spain, or perhaps in another way), but it appears that OP still refuses to provide evidence, insisting that his assertions are sufficient, and that it is us who need to provide evidence that he is wrong.
Too bad.

Wouldn't any dock look something like a menorah? You have dock, water, dock water. Would not they all resemble candlestick, space, candlestick? Anywhere you had multiple slips with docks on either side would look like a menorah right?

Wouldn't any dock look something like a menorah? You have dock, water, dock water. Would not they all resemble candlestick, space, candlestick? Anywhere you had multiple slips with docks on either side would look like a menorah right?

Then the Lord spoketh, "When thou hast completed the holy candelabra, light it and layeth it down in a pool of salt water."

__________________"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

Wouldn't any dock look something like a menorah? You have dock, water, dock water. Would not they all resemble candlestick, space, candlestick? Anywhere you had multiple slips with docks on either side would look like a menorah right?

WhAt ridunculous retconning! Everybody knows that the menorah is derived from the original fork that was forgotten when that prehistoric tecnologically advanced society fell.

These days we have to make do with 4 tines on our forks as the secret of 7 tine manufacturing was lost (which is why you don't see 7-tine forks. Obviously).

__________________What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

I was feeling a bit under the weather yesterday and watched some more of the National Geographic "Atlantis" documentary. Wow, the confirmation bias is strong with these people. They couldn't find anything that looked like concentric circles that wasn't symbolic of the Atlantis. Even a glyph of a horse was suddenly symbolic of Atlantis. It was all couched in "could be" or "if that means this so this means that". They never (at least until I got disgusted and changed the channel) come out and make a defensible claim. I remember when National Geographic did real science.

It is posted on page one. The graven image was to be made after a "pattern" on some mount.

Much wrong with this interpretation. If you read the preceding verses in any version of the Bible, the pattern is stated in words, with the final exhortation being to continue to make menorah after this pattern.

The whole graven image thing is a MacGuffin, as the term wasn't used pre-KGV

__________________What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

Much wrong with this interpretation. If you read the preceding verses in any version of the Bible, the pattern is stated in words, with the final exhortation being to continue to make menorah after this pattern.

The whole graven image thing is a MacGuffin, as the term wasn't used pre-KGV

The link shows a site on the Moroccan coast, which would rather seem to undermine your argument that it shows Atlantis to be on the Spanish coast.

There is no mention in this link of a menorah. In fact, the link is rather dismissive of the possibility that the site could be Atlantis.

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

There are some who postulate that the Menorah was misconstrued as a candle stick, rather than a symbol of the lost city, with half its concentric circles missing.

Here once again, is the Bible quote you keep mangling.

Quote:

"You are to make a menorah of pure gold. It is to be made of hammered work; its base, shaft, cups, ring of outer leaves and petals are to be of one piece with it. 32 It is to have six branches extending from its sides, three branches of the menorah on one side of it and three on the other. 33 On one branch are to be three cups shaped like almond blossoms, each with a ring of outer leaves and petals; likewise on the opposite branch three cups shaped like almond blossoms, each with a ring of outer leaves and petals; and similarly for all six branches extending from the menorah. 34 On the central shaft of the menorah are to be four cups shaped like almond blossoms, each with its ring of outer leaves and petals. 35 Where each pair of branches joins the central shaft is to be a ring of outer leaves of one piece with the pair of branches -thus for all six branches. 36 The rings of outer leaves and their branches are to be of one piece with the shaft. Thus the whole menorah is to be a single piece of hammered work made of pure gold. 37 "Make seven lamps for the menorah, and mount them so as to give light to the space in front of it. 38 Its tongs and trays are to be of pure gold. 39 The menorah and its utensils are to be made of sixty-six pounds of pure gold. 40 See that you make them according to the design being shown you on the mountain.

Unless you are going to try to claim that Atlantis was bult to look like almond blossoms, I think you should perhaps reconsider the validity of a connection between Atlantis and the menorah.

Mr Yak, your response was far too diligent, considering the quality of the post you were responding to. In future, please keep the quality to a level commensurate with the effort that the claimant puts in....

__________________What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

More posts have been consigned to AAH. Let me put this very clearly: the topic of this thread is not each other or anybody's debating style. Discuss the topic only, and follow the Membership Agreement to which you all agreed on joining the site.

Your quote/version of says "design" on the mount...could you provide further evidence of this "design," a picture of a carving perhaps?

Even when presented with the actual quote, you misrepresent it. Why? Everyone can read what it says.

It doesn't claim that there was a pattern carved into the side of a mountain.
It says that, after having climbed a mountain, Moses was verbally instructed on how to design the menorah.
There is no way to tie this to that Spanish carving without misrepresenting the quote.

Also, what link do you suggest between mount Sinai and southern Spain? They are some 5000 kilometers apart.

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,956

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

Mr Yak, your response was far too diligent, considering the quality of the post you were responding to. In future, please keep the quality to a level commensurate with the effort that the claimant puts in....

You called it.

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Sorry, maybe page 2, or 3...? Look until you find it, I always say.

Yes 'Moroccan,' my mistake.

What say you to the ruins I found!?

Your quote/version of says "design" on the mount...could you provide further evidence of this "design," a picture of a carving perhaps?

So you don't know what's in your own link, nor did you read it correctly.

And now you want me to do more research for you? I think not.
I am especially not going to do any research to prove that the Biblical account on which you are resting half your case is supported by any external evidence. I would have thought you would have done that yourself before starting this thread.

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,956

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life

Even when presented with the actual quote, you misrepresent it. Why? Everyone can read what it says.

It doesn't claim that there was a pattern carved into the side of a mountain.
It says that, after having climbed a mountain, Moses was verbally instructed on how to design the menorah.
There is no way to tie this to that Spanish carving without misrepresenting the quote.

Also, what link do you suggest between mount Sinai and southern Spain? They are some 5000 kilometers apart.

The Bible passage is just more evidence for my claim that the menorah pattern came from the constellations. Where do you go, to be shown a particularly clear and expansive view of the stars? Hint: where do we build most astronomical observatories to this day? Up on a mountain, of course.

Do carvings on rock give off light, the function of a menorah? No, but stars do.

And does the deity whose temple the menorah is intended to illuminate have a throne carved into rock? (Or under the sea, like lost Atlantis?) No, it's in the heavens, where the stars are.

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,956

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Yes 'Moroccan,' my mistake.

What say you to the ruins I found!?

I'm afraid just admitting to a mistake won't cut it.
You see, you were arguing earlier in this thread, while you thought the ruins were off the coast of Spain, that they must be Atlantis because the location matched that given by Plato.
Now we discover that the ruins are in fact some distance away, on the other side of the Mediterranean, on a different continent altogether.
This leaves you in a rather uncomfortable position.
If Plato's description is accurate, then the ruins you are talking about cannot be those of Atlantis, by your own argument.
If his description is can fit both sites, then it is so vague as to be useless as evidence without some other form of corroboration. You have yet to provide said corroboration.
As I see it, if you want to preserve your case, you will either have to reject the Moroccan site as a possible Atlantis, or provide something more than Plato's description to support the idea of Atlantis lying off the coast of Morocco and not Spain.

So you don't know what's in your own link, nor did you read it correctly.

And now you want me to do more research for you? I think not.
I am especially not going to do any research to prove that the Biblical account on which you are resting half your case is supported by any external evidence. I would have thought you would have done that yourself before starting this thread.

I know what's in my links, but not where they are in a multi-page thread.

Biblical or otherwise I found no meaning or symbolism origin story of the menorah.

The Bible passage is just more evidence for my claim that the menorah pattern came from the constellations. Where do you go, to be shown a particularly clear and expansive view of the stars? Hint: where do we build most astronomical observatories to this day? Up on a mountain, of course.

Do carvings on rock give off light, the function of a menorah? No, but stars do.

And does the deity whose temple the menorah is intended to illuminate have a throne carved into rock? (Or under the sea, like lost Atlantis?) No, it's in the heavens, where the stars are.

I know what's in my links, but not where they are in a multi-page thread.

Biblical or otherwise I found no meaning or symbolism origin story of the menorah.

Have you?

What does it mean, symbolize, or represent?

Really? The Bible often uses the number seven to indicate completeness. Seven days of creation. Animals must be seven days old before sacrifice. Lepers being commanded to bathe seven times before being clean. There are many, many examples.

The Bible never, ever, says anything about taking concentric circles from an Atlantis map and breaking them in half.

The symbolism of lamps and light should be obvious enough. the God of the Bible is constantly associated with light.

Almond trees are among the first to become active after winter. As such it has cultural significance that has worked its way into the religion. It is associated with God's faithfulness and ever-presence.

Gold was associated with the celestial light of God.

This information can be found by searching on something called the internet. It is not hard to use. Or, you could click on this link.

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,956

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

I know what's in my links, but not where they are in a multi-page thread.

Biblical or otherwise I found no meaning or symbolism origin story of the menorah.

Have you?

What does it mean, symbolize, or represent?

No, you don't know what's in your links, hence your confusion between Spain and Morocco.
As for the menorah, I have no idea. Nor do I know why I should have an idea. It's not my theory, and I have no vested interest in trying to prove anything about the menorah's origin. That's your job, remember?

No, you don't know what's in your links, hence your confusion between Spain and Morocco.
As for the menorah, I have no idea. Nor do I know why I should have an idea. It's not my theory, and I have no vested interest in trying to prove anything about the menorah's origin. That's your job, remember?

Any jury would find those Moroccan ruins not guilty of being Atlantis.

__________________"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

If you have an alternative theory, please do present it, or relent to my theory, or the throw that there is no origin story for the menorah.

They made a big lamp stand for their sanctuary, and later claimed that their God had ordered them to. What other origin story do you need?

Does the papal tiara have to have been based on a sketch of a ziggurat?
Is tha Ka'aba based on the design of a shipping container from an alien space ship?

There is no reason to invent any kind of pseudo-historical link to a probably mythical city as the origin story of the menorah. And if you do insist on that, actually provide that link. You've only asserted it, and when people aked you how they were linked, you ignore them.

They made something they needed for their rituals, and because it was important and impressive they called it holy. There doesn't need to be a convoluted "National Treasure, starring Nic Cage" type origin story.

Sorry about reviving this thread from the dead but I didn't want to start yet another Atlantis thread.

Atlantis seekers fascinate me, and the time they spend on their research amazes me. Check out this guy who says Atlantis was/is in Argentina. He thinks he even found the river that created the outer ring of the city!!!http://www.atlantismaps.com/chapter_7.html

Atlantis seekers fascinate me, and the time they spend on their research amazes me. Check out this guy who says Atlantis was/is in Argentina. He thinks he even found the river that created the outer ring of the city!!!

And just as we saw with KotA, the message is "This ancient story told by a *fictional character* in a *work of fiction* written by Plato is totally real, except for the size, location, and practically every other detail."

At this point I don't understand why they want to even call it Atlantis. If you think you've found some lost city then cool, but once you've changed every possible detail from the original story why are you insisting it's the same place?

Sorry about reviving this thread from the dead but I didn't want to start yet another Atlantis thread.

Atlantis seekers fascinate me, and the time they spend on their research amazes me. Check out this guy who says Atlantis was/is in Argentina. He thinks he even found the river that created the outer ring of the city!!!http://www.atlantismaps.com/chapter_7.html

Oh yes I remember this gentleman from another website. He has all kinds of manufactured 'evidence' but the key point was this. He considered his finding of Atlantis 'proved' and that he had no reason to actually go there/get others to excavate to find it - he'd found it with 'his logic and reasoning'.

He was going to wait for the world to come to him and tell him how brilliant he was. I think he is still waiting.