I also studied religion in University, I took a very interesting class on the anthropology of religion. Then for a paper, I used the same major theporetical approaches in Religion and applied htem to science. and guess what, they fit.

So, NoHope, why don't you get a fcuking clue and realize that science is religion.

Further, your panning of religion saying that it's garbled nonsense (I'm not picking word for word, but that's, the gist), is just as ignorant as the people you are putting down by living wholly for their religion.

You are what we in Anthropology, like to call ethnocentric. Is that too big a word for you? Would you like me to cut and copy the entry from dictionary.com and pass off the work as my own? Oooh, there's another one for you to look up, plagerism. Don't try and pass of work as your own when it isn't.

I am also an athiest, firm believer in science etc, but being an athiest doesn't equal intolerance. someone will belive whatever they want to believe, religion gives people a reason for believing, some people really need to believe there is someting to life, three is meaning to life, and religion gives that to them.

WORD mouse. There are a lot of crappy things about religion, and there are a lot of crappy things about science. there were some really unethical people who did things, all in the name of science, just like people do things in the name of god. NoHope, would you like me to cut and paste some things that, ooooh, the Nazi's did, should I refresh your memory about that happened at Nanking?

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Hatred does not cease in this world by hating, but by not hating; this is an eternal truth. --- Buddah, The Dhammapada

I have a lot of regard for science, I do. I lean more towards evidence than religion. I'd rather have concrete proof than not, but religion/the supernatural is something totally different, outside of LOGIC. It's it's own creature, largely of man's own ignorant, delusional history making. BUT. There's no *absolute* on it *not* existing. It makes some people feel better, even if there are those elements that don't address us unless it is a time of extraordinary means. And things crop up over & over again all of the world amongst different belief systems that oddly unify us as an occult species over all.

Even as an atheist, I still have a pseudo XFiles mind in that "I'd like to believe." But I don't. I suppose I'm really an agnostic. Per example, when my gran died over the summer, I hoped she was with *her* Jesus. I couldn't do for her what her faith could, but she went at peace in *her* Jesus' hands. I don't believe in God as so much as I believe that there's something more out there that I can't quantify with my regular senses. And that works for some people.

Yeah, by & large I think that most ancient sacred texts are a lot of really poorly written, poetically interpreted allegory, symbolism, & mythology written by a bunch of misogynists that were two thousand years old when we were even more profoundly ignorant than we are; I cannot deny that many of the same ideals cropped up over the world within thousands years of each other. A few thousand years in the grand scheme of things is a drop in the bucket.

But a lot of it had to do with ignorance of human sexuality. What is the slur, "Don't trust anything that bleeds for five days without dying."

Completely OT, I just wonder. Communism, Marxism, Socialism, etc. all seem to go *against* the nature of man (*Please*, we don't feel equality amongst the peoples.), not the nature of religion. Religion has it's place. But the all mighty dollar prevails. Man is greedy & out for himself. Period. We're animals no matter how much we try to subvert it. We have lizard brains. It's not a fault, it's evolution. The Utopian ideal proffered by those philosophies just seem to be proven again & again as a grand failure in the idea that we all are unified. We're largely not unified even if we think we are.

I've been to Cuba. Those people THRIVE on the blackmarket. That's how they feed themselves. It's all black market. They'd be fucked if they followed Castro's ideals.

While I like the ideals, I am still independently wealthy. I don't be owing anybody anything,

But, I've been drinking, so whatever.

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"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."

nohope--islam isn't any more a "sacred cow" than any other religion. but as a human i have respect for other people's beliefs (and no, your "it's more probable therefore i'm right" argument still doesn't let you get off insulting every other belief, less probable or not. it's still a fucking BELIEF). yes, there's a lot in islam that isn't nice. there's a lot in christianity that isn't nice either, and in most other major religions. there is also a lot that is very good, like most other major religions. i'm not, by any means, saying you can't criticize islam and if you actually read and understood my points instead of trying to put words in my mouth so you can have an argument about something i didn't actually say, you'd understand that. also, i don't appreciate being told to "get a clue". i'm actually educated and have studied comparative religion, so i do have a grasp on what i'm talking about. your insulting me is not going to suddenly make me "smarter" and agree with you, so please can it.

also, again with the twisting of my words: i didn't say religion *doesn't* play a part in things, i said it doesn't *have to*. so far, obama has only shown tolerance and intelligence on issues that the church usually gets salty about. when his religion actually comes into play with how he governs, then i'll complain. but so far, he hasn't shown any sign of going in that direction.

furthermore, letting one's religion guide one's actions doesn't have to result in trauma. look at jimmy carter--a deeply religious man, doing some of the best things out there--peace work, human rights work, humanitarian aid, etc. sure, one doesn't have to be religious to do those things, but who cares where the impetus comes from if good things are getting done.

in case you didn't know, ap, if you prefer alliteration, there is also "panty puddle." which i prefer.

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"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve

You pick a name like "NoHope", you know you gotta be miserable. His washroom must be breeding Bolsheviks . . .

I know I've taken some stick on my handle here ( Musical reference & an anagram of my name, HONEST.), but the more nasty connotations were just a happy coincidence as far as I am concerned. The girlies never seem to draw on it that way, but dumb guys, like Funk & Thefedupex that I whaled on glommed onto it being appropriate because I am straight strychnine on chumps.

DERAIL

Charlie, he's not malevolent in the least . . . just mischievious. He followed my mother from the house on Cedar when she was a teen & moved in with my dad. He doesn't want to go anywhere, he likes it here. He just sometimes likes to dabble his ghostly fingers in the material world now & again. It's annoying, but manageable. I like to think he's looking out for me. Although it freaks me out because if *he's* watching me than what's to keep my folks from popping in on me while I'm masturbating? *shudders*

He hides things, that's his main gig. When I was a teen (When he was MUCH MUCH MUCH more potent.), whenever I had a sporting event or Forensics thing that required me to be up CRAZY early, I'd set everything out the night before. Entire outfit, kit, etc: he'd steal one of my shoes. I would have to make an at least five circle trek around the house until I'd come back to my room to find my shoe exactly where it should have been.

My father thought my mother & I were crazy until I moved out & he started to fuck with my dad, too. My dad had several weird hobbies & things would just go missing only to be found a few hours later someplace odd.

Nowadays, when I get crafty, he'll steal my tools. When I'm cooking my knife or my ladle will wind up in the crisper or somewhere equally weird. I found my shears in a measuring cup under the counter when I ALWAYS put them in the drawer next to the fridge after use & cleaning. ALWAYS. OCD sez they go THERE. But Charlie likes to remind me that he's here. He knows I'm writing about him right now because he's popping on something in the living room. Both cats are in visual distance & asleep & it's not the house settling. I can't seem to find what he's pinging though, so it may just be him.

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"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."

If it ain't black & white (Or Red.) politics or straight science, he's not interested. I remember him telling us that we, as caregivers of family members, have Stockholm Syndrome & various other random debacles where he started shit just to start shit. His tendency towards sheer fallaciousness is astounding.

His life just seems like one big amalgum of bland, boring, humourless, souless, colourless, joyless, soot-sticky, sucky, unholy, never-ending, that creates a ball of doom & the only way he gets any joy whatsoever is by spreading that layer of misery around.

Good cod. I sounded just like Funknak for a second there. *looks around for spitoon* Ptoo ptoo ptoo!

I am by no means perfect, everybody knows this. I'm not really happy with everything in my life right this very second, but I do crack a smile & laugh every now & again. There's too much *interesting *weirdness in my day not to. A friend once made me a fridge magnet that said, & I feel like a dorko hippie posting it, "Find the magic in the mundane." I've never forgotten it.

And I'm serious about dead guy in my house. He's been here as long as we have. And he's left some residual soul goo or whatever behind. The son of a bitch stole my kitchen shears today.

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"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."

Nohope your comments about Islam being gibberish are not only ignorant and disgusting, have you ever EVER bothered to read about Islam? Like anything people will distort it to their advantage, before you go shooting your mouth off, I suggest you read about things before cutting and pasting that which you read on a website.

I have friends who are Muslim and if you took your head out of your ass for three seconds, you would see that it is a very peaceful religion.

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Hatred does not cease in this world by hating, but by not hating; this is an eternal truth. --- Buddah, The Dhammapada

I admire your condemnation of the concept of "morally justifiable bigotry" too, gt. There's a lot of it in the air recently (not here at the Lounge aside from nohope, but on other boards I've been reading) *cough* *wheeze*

i think this is the first time i've been in this thread for not starting an argument....

i feel weird...

*puts her hand on her forehead*

yeah... i think i've got a fever..

lol...thanks rosey.

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"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve

thing that kills me nohope is that you seem to think that your bigotry is some sort of morally justifiable bigotry. there is no such beast. anytime you look down at your nose at someone, you've created the offense. you use your beliefs to justify treating others poorly and you are no better than they are.

what's more, it's a riot that you feel free to just make stuff up about obama. sadly, it makes everything you say look made up. which means, when it comes to belief systems, i can say i don't believe a thing you say. is that rational enough for you?

what I believe mouse did was make herself "human" to the guy. It's so easy, especially in a city like LA (I lived there for 7 years, I know how dehumanizing the place can be) to not think about the fact that you're fucking with a human being... until the fact that they're a human being clicks in.

Personally, I don't see it as "typical male assholery," but typical human idiocy. People in general do all sorts of not nice shit to each other. I can totally think of times where I've been having a shit day, and have had a really short temper with cashiers, or people on the phone - but there have been a few times when that other person has said something, or been nice in a way that just clicked in the moment and made me realize that, shit, that person has feelings too, and how not cool of me to take my shitty day out on them, or not to have thought of them as another human being that I should treat the same way I'd like to be treated.

Do I think that this guy's actions were right? No. It's just not cool to do that. But it sounds like the chance that Mouse took in reaching out to him, somehow clicked with him and though he may not have said sorry, seems to me his actions indicate if you read between the lines, that he was. I mean, it's pretty unrealistic to think that a kid in a parking lot with his friends is gonna be like 'oh, I'm sorry I was a dick back there.'