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The right to die

So Tony Nicklinson, a stroke victim with locked-in syndrome, has lost his court case to allow him to die.

In order to die, he would have had to get someone else to physically kill him, as he is unable to move. He describes his life as 'a living hell'.

There has been progress on 'right to die' cases in Europe recently, with clinics such as Dignitas in Switzerland providing a euthanising service for people wishing to end their own lives. Several British people have used this clinic - but the law remains in the UK that someone helping them to die, even by facilitating travel or handing them the pills, could theoretically be convicted for murder or manslaughter. (This hasn't ever actually come to court yet, but the law remains).

People opposed to assisted suicide say that this may set a precedent where old and ill people feel a burden to others, and may be pressured into committing suicide because of this.

My personal view is that we should all be able to live a life free of pain and suffering, and if this is not possible, we should have the right to choose a quick and painless death - forcing someone to remain alive in this case is tantamount to torture. Of course counselling etc should be provided to anyone considering this option, but the ultimate decision should rest with the person whose life it is.

My examples were chosen at random to illustrate a principal. I wasn't trying to make a comprehensive list.

But to show just how stupid using "depression" as a criterion for denying a loan is, what do you think depressed people will do if they are informed that a diagnosis of depression will most likely be used against them ? I'll tell you, if at some point they are legally required to disclose their mental health status ( as the suggestion implies ) in order to secure a loan then all they need to do is refuse to visit a mental health professional in order to keep their medical records clean.

That way they still can receive a loan, kill themselves later if they wish, and absolutely nothing has been gained by the bank's proactive money saving effort.

As someone who was both mistaken as suicidal when I wasn't and deterred from telling anyone when I was suicidal due to the extreme overreaction that came when I was mistaken as suicidal (at two separate times, of course), I am all for removing the ridiculous taboo on suicide. There are about 7 billion of us on this planet. We really don't need to be preserving absolutely every human life we can if those humans don't want to be here. I suspect the taboo ends up hurting somewhat-suicidal people by ensuring (or at least making them believe) that the only way they can recieve help is to initiate an extreme over-response.

Various obligations can be handled in the same way they're handled for non-suicide cases of no-one-to-blame death, like lightning strikes or sudden illness. Also, life insurance companies should continue to be allowed to refuse payout in the event of suicides not performed by terminally ill patients. This way, life insurance won't be a sure way to sacrifice yourself to finance others, and yet those who are going to die anyway can end their suffering without sacrificing the effects of life insurance (though perhaps they should recieve a slightly reduced payment, based on the amount of time they could have continued living and the typical rate of inflation).

Various obligations can be handled in the same way they're handled for non-suicide cases of no-one-to-blame death, like lightning strikes or sudden illness. Also, life insurance companies should continue to be allowed to refuse payout in the event of suicides not performed by terminally ill patients. This way, life insurance won't be a sure way to sacrifice yourself to finance others, and yet those who are going to die anyway can end their suffering without sacrificing the effects of life insurance (though perhaps they should recieve a slightly reduced payment, based on the amount of time they could have continued living and the typical rate of inflation).

In most states life insurance pays for suicide if the suicide happens at least two years after you purchase the policy. So it is good to plan ahead.

In many states, a terminally ill patient can draw on part or sometimes all of their life insurance benefit while still alive. This started happening when third party companies were purchasing life insurance policies from terminally ill patients for 30-80% of their face value, naming themselves as beneficiaries. paying the premium and collecting a profit when the person died. These investments are called viatical settlements. Insurance companies didn't like the idea the people might buy life insurance for speculative purposes so most came out with a version of an "accelerated death benefit" clause allowing the customer to collect on it and removing the incentive to sell the policy to a third party. Viatical settlements can still happen and are legal in some states, but are now very rare.

Edit:

There it is, right there for all you Bama loving Romney haters. Romney won't release his tax returns because he probably profited from a viatical settlement, making a profit from the death of a desperate, poor, terminally ill grandma. It makes far more sense than the insinuations that he broke the law, or didn't pay taxes which I don't think anyone really believes. Heck, it is exactly the type of low risk/potential high return investment that Romney has a history of favoring since a viatical is guaranteed to pay sooner or later. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that in the late 90's early 00's Romney dabbled his fingers in viaticals. Start spreading the rumor now and get the Bama campaign on the right track.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

My examples were chosen at random to illustrate a principal. I wasn't trying to make a comprehensive list.

But to show just how stupid using "depression" as a criterion for denying a loan is, what do you think depressed people will do if they are informed that a diagnosis of depression will most likely be used against them ? I'll tell you, if at some point they are legally required to disclose their mental health status ( as the suggestion implies ) in order to secure a loan then all they need to do is refuse to visit a mental health professional in order to keep their medical records clean.

That way they still can receive a loan, kill themselves later if they wish, and absolutely nothing has been gained by the bank's proactive money saving effort.

I am in total agreement with you Prozac. I think the suggestions about evaluating people's mental health before they get a loan is a very stupid argument.

I mean shit, if I am at a point where I want to end my life, the last thing on my mind is going to be whether or not a bunch of corporate assholes are going to get their money back. There have been a couple of them that I more or less told to go fuck themselves and I am not suicidal.

When I had the hospital calling me every few minutes about my kidneystone bill, I finally summed it up for them one time by saying " I've got a million problems on my list and the hospital bill is not one of them."

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

To get away from the nickels and dimes issues, any approach that is viewed by a potentially suicidal person as being derogatory, debasing or in any way threatening is going to drive them away from seeking treatment. The recent suicide rates for police and military personnel exceeds that of the general population. Since 911 and the US involvement in the so-called "War on Terror" suicides in the Army have reached an all-time high.

An important factor in this trend is that both the military and police culture tend to look upon those suffering from acute mental anguish as just being "cowards" and "pussies". Also, any attempts to receive counseling for their ailments will go into their record and will almost certainly be used to thwart any future promotions. So, they choose to internalize their emotional turmoil until they reach their breaking point and a suicide is the result.

The same could be said even in the civilian world. As I stated earlier Western societies, heavily influenced by Judeo / Christian attitudes toward suicide, have produced an environment that is generally scathing toward anyone who chooses to support self-termination. They face the same type of ostracizing bull shit that tends to drive them even further away from seeking help. Just admit publicly that you suffer from simple depression / anxiety ( even without suicidal ideation ) and you will never be looked at the same again by the majority of your peers.

To get away from the nickels and dimes issues, any approach that is viewed by a potentially suicidal person as being derogatory, debasing or in any way threatening is going to drive them away from seeking treatment. The recent suicide rates for police and military personnel exceeds that of the general population. Since 911 and the US involvement in the so-called "War on Terror" suicides in the Army have reached an all-time high.

An important factor in this trend is that both the military and police culture tend to look upon those suffering from acute mental anguish as just being "cowards" and "pussies". Also, any attempts to receive counseling for their ailments will go into their record and will almost certainly be used to thwart any future promotions. So, they choose to internalize their emotional turmoil until they reach their breaking point and a suicide is the result.

The same could be said even in the civilian world. As I stated earlier Western societies, heavily influenced by Judeo / Christian attitudes toward suicide, have produced an environment that is generally scathing toward anyone who chooses to support self-termination. They face the same type of ostracizing bull shit that tends to drive them even further away from seeking help. Just admit publicly that you suffer from simple depression / anxiety ( even without suicidal ideation ) and you will never be looked at the same again by the majority of your peers.

I agree again. That's kind of like people that I have heard say that suicides are "selfish and self-centered". Wait a minute, someone is willing to take their own life and that is selfish ? If they did it in the line of duty, these same people would be calling them heros.

I also agree about the way that peers treat people with mental problems. I felt really bad for a co-worker that had to take a leave of absence from work and enter a drug/alcohol rehab program. To his face, all the assholes that I work with were giving him the "We're glad your seeking help and if there is anything that we can do--" bullshit and trash talking him behind his back. Some of these assholes I know for fact are heavy drug takers and alcohol abusers, they just never have gotten into trouble.

I know he was to the point of quitting the job (I had never said anything to him about it one way or the other) and I just told him privately "Stick it out. Sooner or later some new rumor or scandal will come up and it will be forgotten. Rumor mills don't last long. Just look at me and my atheism. I caught shit for a few months and now it is just old news and not even worth a second cup of coffee in the breakroom."

People have a tendency to be like jackals. One sign of stigma or perceived weakness and they are like a swarm that smells some blood and starts a feeding frenzy.

Which is one of the reasons that I prefer a bunch of wild, chaotic, and crazy people for friends that the mainstream society has branded as outlaws and outcasts.

I find the company of my dog a lot more fulfilling than anyone that is in my workplace. I am there to make a paycheck and get the fuck out.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

To get away from the nickels and dimes issues, any approach that is viewed by a potentially suicidal person as being derogatory, debasing or in any way threatening is going to drive them away from seeking treatment. The recent suicide rates for police and military personnel exceeds that of the general population. Since 911 and the US involvement in the so-called "War on Terror" suicides in the Army have reached an all-time high.

An important factor in this trend is that both the military and police culture tend to look upon those suffering from acute mental anguish as just being "cowards" and "pussies". Also, any attempts to receive counseling for their ailments will go into their record and will almost certainly be used to thwart any future promotions. So, they choose to internalize their emotional turmoil until they reach their breaking point and a suicide is the result.

The same could be said even in the civilian world. As I stated earlier Western societies, heavily influenced by Judeo / Christian attitudes toward suicide, have produced an environment that is generally scathing toward anyone who chooses to support self-termination. They face the same type of ostracizing bull shit that tends to drive them even further away from seeking help. Just admit publicly that you suffer from simple depression / anxiety ( even without suicidal ideation ) and you will never be looked at the same again by the majority of your peers.

I agree again. That's kind of like people that I have heard say that suicides are "selfish and self-centered". Wait a minute, someone is willing to take their own life and that is selfish ? If they did it in the line of duty, these same people would be calling them heros.

I also agree about the way that peers treat people with mental problems. I felt really bad for a co-worker that had to take a leave of absence from work and enter a drug/alcohol rehab program. To his face, all the assholes that I work with were giving him the "We're glad your seeking help and if there is anything that we can do--" bullshit and trash talking him behind his back. Some of these assholes I know for fact are heavy drug takers and alcohol abusers, they just never have gotten into trouble.

I know he was to the point of quitting the job (I had never said anything to him about it one way or the other) and I just told him privately "Stick it out. Sooner or later some new rumor or scandal will come up and it will be forgotten. Rumor mills don't last long. Just look at me and my atheism. I caught shit for a few months and now it is just old news and not even worth a second cup of coffee in the breakroom."

People have a tendency to be like jackals. One sign of stigma or perceived weakness and they are like a swarm that smells some blood and starts a feeding frenzy.

Which is one of the reasons that I prefer a bunch of wild, chaotic, and crazy people for friends that the mainstream society has branded as outlaws and outcasts.

I find the company of my dog a lot more fulfilling than anyone that is in my workplace. I am there to make a paycheck and get the fuck out.

Maybe I've just been lucky but your workplace seems much worse than my freaking high-school.

I've always been pretty much completely aloof and detached from any nonsense like this there, though, so maybe I've just not heard about it.

Maybe I've just been lucky but your workplace seems much worse than my freaking high-school.

I've always been pretty much completely aloof and detached from any nonsense like this there, though, so maybe I've just not heard about it.

I have often compared it to high school in my head several times.

Only real difference is, there is no detention and no large population of attractive girls to look at.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

I guess we can say that at least he is not in any more pain and suffering.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

The article I read said "pneumonia". His immune system may have been affected by his mental state - it is not uncommon for people who are bed-ridden to have too much fluid in the lungs which can lead to fatal pneumonia.

Since he wanted to die, I'm glad he got his wish.

If his wife put a pillow over his head to help him along, the doctor is apparently not going to notice. No investigation, no coroner, no charges filed.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.

The article I read said "pneumonia". His immune system may have been affected by his mental state - it is not uncommon for people who are bed-ridden to have too much fluid in the lungs which can lead to fatal pneumonia.

Since he wanted to die, I'm glad he got his wish.

If his wife put a pillow over his head to help him along, the doctor is apparently not going to notice. No investigation, no coroner, no charges filed.

Since he went through a court case to try to kill himself I think it's safe to say he really wanted to die. It doesn't matter to me if his wife helped or not.

People should work in, or at least study, psychiatry before making assumptions about suicidal people.

You're an expert on this topic, too ?

More than a layman, less than a professor or doctor.

Manageri wrote:

The view that it's incredibly difficult to get to a place mentally where you can overpower that fear of death? Yeah, if I could overcome that bullshit fear I really don't think I'd be here anymore.

Sad. I have no fear of death. I've faced it and faced it down. I have no desire to kill myself at all. I've only ever seriously considered suicide once, and that was in the midst of a multi-day migraine which still haunts my memory to this day. Bullshit that anything could possibly hurt worse, ever.
I'd much rather die fighting for what I believe in, affecting as many as I can, before the inevitable.

However, having been in a position of actually considering suicide puts a different perspective on things. I'll never interfere with someone committing suicide unless I suspect their faculties have been compromised, such as with clinical depression, shock, etc. But if I don't think they're 'all there', then I will. And every time I have, I was thanked for it afterwards by the person who attempted it. So my strategy seems to be working.

Of course, I can't get input from the lucid ones, but I haven't had to deal with that as yet anyway.

I have no desire to kill myself at all. I've only ever seriously considered suicide once, and that was in the midst of a multi-day migraine which still haunts my memory to this day. Bullshit that anything could possibly hurt worse, ever.

Then we share that experience, at least. I used to suffer from migraines regularly. The pain would have me puking into the toilet because I was so nauseated with pain.

Damn, apparently it's no longer manufactured, at least for the US. I figured I'd do a search and bookmark the page for potential future reference, but instead I came across this:

Quote:

Midrin and other products or generics that contain these same ingredients are no longer available in the U.S.

The specific ingredients were Acetaminophen, Isometheptene and Dichloralphenazone.

The reason it has been discontinued, by all manufacturers is that this medication was actually never approved by the FDA. It is an old drug, that was basically grandfathered in, when their new policies went into effect, however, for it to continue being marketed, the companies that manufacture it must now do studies on its safety and efficacy. The FDA has started cracking down on these 'grandfathered' medications and many companies have chosen to stop making them available on the market.

I mean I'm not scared of death. I don't particularly look forward to dying, but death itself scares me not at all.

Well there's two layers to that. We can understand logically that death is nothing to fear, which I do, but that doesn't mean my psychology will just let me pull the trigger without putting up a fight. It's no different from how I can have a spider on me and understand that particular species poses zero threat to me, but I'll still feel like getting the thing off me asap.

You understand logically, but have you also accepted it emotionally as I have? Can you face having a gun pointed in your face without feeling more than an adrenaline rush?

Fighting death doesn't necessarily imply you have to be scared of it, it just means you want to live.

Every time I've brushed death I've gotten that rush, but that's all. No fear or anger, I go into an emotionless state where my logical thoughts take full control, at speeds I wish I could always match. The fear never comes. I've been scared, so I know what it feels like, but its been a very long time since I felt it. Since I was a kid actually.