Just shows how you can manipulate statistics. Most of those 31 games Ziggy played were solely on special teams. Van Noy was highly recruited out of high school and played significantly at linebacker all three years.

I doubt the "expertise" of someone who makes such basic errors analyzing Ziggy's season. Also, it shows how difficult it is to support the position that Ziggy's got substantial risk of being a bust. And if you think opposing coaches weren't afraid of Ziggy by the second half of last season, you're dreaming.

Graham had a better year last year, and had a better rookie season until his injury.

Except for 2011, when Graham had to sit out the entire year due to the ACL injury he suffered in 2010, Graham has actually been a better player than Pierre Paul on a per-snap basis. Check Profootballfocus.com for their 4-3 DE rankings.

And I actually think that going forward, Graham can have the better overall career than PIerre-Paul. I think in 5 years, we will look back at Pierre Pauls' career and say "well, aside from that fluky 2011 season, he wasn't all that great".

I don't necessarily disagree. Except that the Eagles passed over a player who is now a pro bowler for one who is not. Right now, if that draft were done over, there's not a team in the league who would pick Graham over Pierre-Paul.

I don't necessarily disagree. Except that the Eagles passed over a player who is now a pro bowler for one who is not. Right now, if that draft were done over, there's not a team in the league who would pick Graham over Pierre-Paul.

that being said, the guys ND focused on (only BYU game i saw in its entirety) were van Noy and Ogletree

that being said, the guys ND focused on (only BYU game i saw in its entirety) were van Noy and Ogletree

Well, considering that they rushed 43 times and only passed 17 times in that game, it makes a lot of sense to focus on blocking the middle linebacker more than a pass-rushing defensive end when your game plan is to run the ball.

I agree, Van Noy's a beast, and you always have to focus on him. Ask San Diego State.

I don't think there's any question that JPP has had the more successful career to this point compared to Graham but the vast majority of people who criticize the Eagles for that decision are full of it. If you asked Eagles fans before the draft who they'd rather have of the two, 85 percent would have answered Graham. Everyone was worried about him being a raw player from a small school. From what I read of Giants' fans opinions before the 2010 draft, roughly the same percentage would have preferred Graham. It's revisionist history to criticize the pick now.

I don't necessarily disagree. Except that the Eagles passed over a player who is now a pro bowler for one who is not. Right now, if that draft were done over, there's not a team in the league who would pick Graham over Pierre-Paul.

Let's revisit this in 5 years, which will give a more accurate picture of the two players.

Graham could easily outplay Pierre Paul over the course of their entire careers.

Comparing 2 players solely on the basis of a per snap performance pass rushing basis is so fundamentally idiotic, especially when one player is a situational player while the other is a full time player. I like Brandon Graham a lot, and think that he is a solid rusher who has caught some bad breaks in his career, but he's no JPP.

The truth is not all pass rushing snaps are created equal. Somebody is going to rush very differently on 2nd and 2 than 3rd and 16. Also, blocking assignments, quality of opposing tackles, rush assignments, and technique varies widely from team to team. Simply saying player x got 20 rushes in 200 snaps doesn't mean he would have had 40 rushes in 400 snaps.

There is a lot more to being a quality passing situation DE than simply getting high pressure statistics, especially since the definition of a pressure is so nebulous and dependent on the person to begin with.

You're overthinking it.

Pressure is pressure, period. Graham was more productive based on the number of snaps he received.

If Graham had played the same number of snaps as Pierre Paul I am confident that you could literally double Graham's stats (ending up with 10+ sacks, and a ton more pressure).

In fact, I will be shocked if Graham doesn't outproduce Pierre Paul in the next 5 years as long as Graham is given a starting position on a defense somewhere.

Wait, are you saying Brandon Graham is a better player than JPP??
Please THINK before you type.

JPP didn't start as a rookie. His 2nd year in the league he had 16.5 sacks in 12(!!) games started. Last year JPP faced constant double teams and his production dipped.

Constant double teams is BS. It's an excuse. Pierre Paul simply did not produce last year.

Graham outplayed Pierre Paul in their most recent NFL seasons.

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Brandon Graham has been garbage thus far in his NFL career. Injuries unfortunately are a part of the game, but don't come here with this BS that Graham is better than JPP on a per play basis.

Graham suffered an ACL tear in his rookie season that disallowed him from playing in 2011.

Last year, Graham *was* a better played than Pierre Paul. It's just that he played roughly half the snaps. That doesn't change the fact that on a per-play basis, Graham was better than Pierre Paul last year.

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Graham did NOT have a better year than JPP last season. I saw both those guys twice last season. One of them the Skins were able to stone with a TE.
The other guy gave Trent Williams all he could handle and sacked RGIII.

Yeah, so basing an opinion on two games you watched casually as a fan is far more important than the entire body of work of the two guys, their exact stats, and the rating that Profootballfocus.com gives them.. OK.

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Graham is an afterthought in the NFL. If the Eagles tried to trade him, they'd be lucky to get a 6th round pick.

Graham will outplay Pierre Paul in the next 5 years and after their careers are over people will say that Graham was the better player.

I don't think there's any question that JPP has had the more successful career to this point compared to Graham but the vast majority of people who criticize the Eagles for that decision are full of it. If you asked Eagles fans before the draft who they'd rather have of the two, 85 percent would have answered Graham. Everyone was worried about him being a raw player from a small school. From what I read of Giants' fans opinions before the 2010 draft, roughly the same percentage would have preferred Graham. It's revisionist history to criticize the pick now.

Which brings us back to the point. Teams aren't going to make the same mistake twice. They understand the potential of Ansah.

__________________Kaepernick is this years pat white. Thin, gimmick offense and doesn't possess an nfl arm. The ncaa constantly regurgitates clones of past players and amazingly enough, tricks some people into thinking they're better than their cloned half. Kaepernick was a complete waste of a senior bowl qb spot. A better qb will come from the east/west shrine or whatever they're calling it now...count on it

I don't think there's any question that JPP has had the more successful career to this point compared to Graham but the vast majority of people who criticize the Eagles for that decision are full of it. If you asked Eagles fans before the draft who they'd rather have of the two, 85 percent would have answered Graham. Everyone was worried about him being a raw player from a small school. From what I read of Giants' fans opinions before the 2010 draft, roughly the same percentage would have preferred Graham. It's revisionist history to criticize the pick now.

No. It would be revisionist history to say the pick was criticized at the time, but criticizing it now is totally legit. And just because a lot of people where wrong about JPP back then doesn't change that.

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Originally Posted by AcheTen

You're overthinking it.

Pressure is pressure, period. Graham was more productive based on the number of snaps he received.

If Graham had played the same number of snaps as Pierre Paul I am confident that you could literally double Graham's stats (ending up with 10+ sacks, and a ton more pressure).

In fact, I will be shocked if Graham doesn't outproduce Pierre Paul in the next 5 years as long as Graham is given a starting position on a defense somewhere.

Gotta love the classic, my player is so good he'll totally out produce this probowler who's already played a pivot role for a title winning team...if he's good enough for anybody to start him.

__________________
BK

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Originally Posted by AcheTen

JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham

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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.

Haven't been following the draft too closely this year, but since Ansah is projected to go to Detroit, I've been reading up on him some..

Anyways, aren't people concerned about Ansah being so raw at 24? I could see people freaking out over him if he was 20 or 21.. but he's only a few months younger than JPP, who was said to be pretty damn raw when he came out 3 years ago, and he was picked #15. I like what I see, but at #5 I don't know..

Haven't been following the draft too closely this year, but since Ansah is projected to go to Detroit, I've been reading up on him some..

Anyways, aren't people concerned about Ansah being so raw at 24? I could see people freaking out over him if he was 20 or 21.. but he's only a few months younger than JPP, who was said to be pretty damn raw when he came out 3 years ago, and he was picked #15. I like what I see, but at #5 I don't know..

I don't think his age has any bearing. He's 23 now (will be 24 next month, I believe). He never played football until March 2010, when he was 20. If anything, the fact that after only 3 years of playing football, the fact that he's even being considered as a 1st round NFL draft pick says a lot about his talent and how quickly he's picked up the game. BYU used him at 3 or 4 different positions during his only year of significant playing time.

No. It would be revisionist history to say the pick was criticized at the time, but criticizing it now is totally legit. And just because a lot of people where wrong about JPP back then doesn't change that.

Gotta love the classic, my player is so good he'll totally out produce this probowler who's already played a pivot role for a title winning team...if he's good enough for anybody to start him.

Did you watch the NFL last year?

If I'm not mistaken, the most recent NFl season was the 2012 season. In that season, Brandon Graham was a better player than Jason Pierre Paul. In almost half the number of snaps, Graham outproduced Pierre Paul with regard to sacks+hits+hurries and did just as good of a job in the run game.

And really, it's only been three years since the 2010 draft. It's literally impossible to definitively say that "Player X is better than Player Y" and "it was a mistake to pick Player Y over Player X". Five years down the road, we'll be able to say things like this, but right now, that's crazy. Pierre Paul had one good year, and Graham has shown flashes of elite talent. We'll have to see how this plays out for at least 4-5 more years before we can say anything definitive.

If I'm not mistaken, the most recent NFl season was the 2012 season. In that season, Brandon Graham was a better player than Jason Pierre Paul. In almost half the number of snaps, Graham outproduced Pierre Paul with regard to sacks+hits+hurries and did just as good of a job in the run game.

And really, it's only been three years since the 2010 draft. It's literally impossible to definitively say that "Player X is better than Player Y" and "it was a mistake to pick Player Y over Player X". Five years down the road, we'll be able to say things like this, but right now, that's crazy. Pierre Paul had one good year, and Graham has shown flashes of elite talent. We'll have to see how this plays out for at least 4-5 more years before we can say anything definitive.

Understand that NO ONE else is as bullish on Brandon Graham as you are.
Three years is enough of a sample size to get a read on a pass rusher. JPP has been a difference maker every year he's been in a Giants uni.

You say JPP 'had one good year,' his All-Pro season. However his other two seasons were still productive.

If Graham has shown 'flashes of elite talent(!!)'lol, WTF has JPP done in NY???
Graham hasn't had one good season yet.

Graham might end up being a decent 34 OLB, but right now he's an undersized, physically challenged 43 DE.

I'm sure most Philly fans would trade Graham straight up for JPP right now and be happy about it.

Graham isn't even on Orakpo's level, and Rak isn't an elite pass rusher.

Understand that NO ONE else is as bullish on Brandon Graham as you are.
Three years is enough of a sample size to get a read on a pass rusher. JPP has been a difference maker every year he's been in a Giants uni.

He was only a real difference maker in 2011. In his rookie season he did nothing, and last year he was pedestrian as a pass rusher and good as a run defender.

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You say JPP 'had one good year,' his All-Pro season. However his other two seasons were still productive.

Again, basically he was outplayed by Graham in their rookie seasons (2010). Last year, he was again outplayed by Graham on a per-snap basis.

In 2011 Graham had to sit out due to injury but if he hadn't been injured he just as easily could have outplayed Pierre Paul.

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If Graham has shown 'flashes of elite talent(!!)'lol, WTF has JPP done in NY???
Graham hasn't had one good season yet.

Graham HAD A BETTER YEAR than Pierre Paul last year.

Graham had more production in his rookie season.

In 2011, again, I have already explained this.

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Graham might end up being a decent 34 OLB, but right now he's an undersized, physically challenged 43 DE.

Graham doesn't have great height but he has more explosion and quickness than Pierre Paul.

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I'm sure most Philly fans would trade Graham straight up for JPP right now and be happy about it.

Not if they're smart. There's more to an NFL player's career than their first three years, especially if they were injured during their rookie season.

Remove "upset" from that sentence and replace it with "right" and you're on to something.

You should know just as well as I that three years is way too early to judge two players, especially when Player A had a serious ACL tear in his rookie season and Player B has had one, and only one, highly productive year.

Except that JPP is infinitely better than Brandon Graham, and has been all 3 years of their careers.

How is this not a completely homer-tastic statement from a Giants fan?

You did watch 2010 and 2012 right? And you do understand that an ACL tear prevented Graham from competing in this contest in 2011 completely, right?

And for the record, I'm not even an Eagles fan. I'm a Raiders fan. My favorite player from the 2010 draft though was Graham, and I though Pierre Paul would be a bust. I still think that Pierre Paul could be seen as a "one year wonder" and Graham can be Defensive Player of the Year caliber player in the right system.

Graham always seems to be injuried. He was healthy after 2 years off, and couldn't see action in all 16 games. He couldn't be out the guy in front of him. Babin who's only move was to run fast.

After starting full time in 6 games he was able to produce 4 sacks, most of them coming from CIN game and the other 1.5 from Dallas.

He had one major injury in 2010 that forced him to sit out in 2011.

Also, while the sack numbers are comparable, in less snaps, you really have to look at the pressure numbers (sacks+hits+hurries) to see the difference. Graham LAPS Pierre Paul per rush, and you can check Profootballfocus.com for more info.