He's the closer, and Charlotte's winning percentage is higher than the big league team, so he's obviously doing well. And those numbers are so good that there's no possibility he could secretly suck.

Lopez might not have the same success with the Sox, but Boone's got some stuff to work on...

Vernam

05-16-2006, 09:57 PM

Tonight was about the most thorough meltdown you're going to see from a marginal young pitcher. It was almost comical how he didn't play balls he should have, did play balls he shouldn't have, and generally crapped the bed. Not covering first base is just a cardinal sin, and it probably accounts for the fact that NO ONE in the dugout gave him a pat on the back when he came off the field (though Ozzie did give him one on the mound).

I'd hate to see him sent down right after an outing like that, because the taste will linger for him even if he doesn't get demoted. But we'll see if Kenny feels forgiving . . .

Vernam

CubsfansareDRUNK

05-16-2006, 09:58 PM

Whats the status on Jeff Nelson? Im so sick of Logan, Montero, and Thornton.

sox1970

05-16-2006, 09:59 PM

Whats the status on Jeff Nelson? Im so sick of Logan, Montero, and Thornton.

Be patient. Changes are coming.

oeo

05-16-2006, 10:00 PM

Isn't it pretty obvious he's throwing well?

Just like Haeger and Montero? I'll believe it when I see it.

Mohoney

05-16-2006, 10:00 PM

I never really noticed it until today, but Boone Logan has really big feet.

And yes, I would agree that he would be better off in the minors.

CubsfansareDRUNK

05-16-2006, 10:01 PM

Be patient. Changes are coming.

ok

A. Cavatica

05-16-2006, 10:04 PM

Correction: Lopez is not the closer. He has 6 saves, but Jeff Farnsworth has 8 or 9.

Nelson's only thrown a couple of innings so far.

Bobbo35

05-16-2006, 10:04 PM

I think Kenny after seeing this performance from Logan (at least I hope) will make some changes, because that is not going to cut it.

Grzegorz

05-16-2006, 10:12 PM

It's best is Javier Lopez is the guy and not Jeff Nelson.

samram

05-16-2006, 10:31 PM

Definitely agree that Logan needs to be in the minors. This is a guy who's basically in the majors based on a change in his motion- eventually, you need to have major league stuff to succeed.

DrCrawdad

05-16-2006, 10:41 PM

http://www.greatfallswhitesox.com/archive/03pix/images/loganb.jpg

Say hello to...

http://www.rookiesquantities.com/Images/UDV00_345.jpg

Lip Man 1

05-16-2006, 11:00 PM

No offense folks but I can do without seeing another 'has been' audition for the left handed relief role. Bring up Nelson when he's ready and go out and get someone with experience. I don't care if he's left handed or right handed.

Anybody's got to be better then the cast of clowns we've been auditioning since spring training for the back end of the bullpen.

Lip

Corlose 15

05-16-2006, 11:10 PM

No offense folks but I can do without seeing another 'has been' audition for the left handed relief role. Bring up Nelson when he's ready and go out and get someone with experience. I don't care if he's left handed or right handed.

Anybody's got to be better then the cast of clowns we've been auditioning since spring training for the back end of the bullpen.

Lip

Who's to say that Nelson isn't a has been? If he's some wonderful solution why didn't he make the Cardinals out of ST?

I could go without someone referring to the "Player X experiment" for a while too.

Lip Man 1

05-16-2006, 11:18 PM

Corlose:

Very good question. He 'only' pitched six innings allowing zero runs.

Why Nelson?...at this point because he's had success in the major leagues for a long period of time. At least he won't crap in his pants when he steps on the mound. Can Lopez or the other 'can't miss kids' make the same claim?

Who do the Sox 'audition' next? Duane Ward? Mike Bertotti? How about Jason Grilli LOL.

If Nelson can't cut it what have the Sox lost? I mean it's not like Logan, Thornton, Haegar or Montero (or whatever the hell his name is) has been worth a damn.

Lip

Goodman6

05-16-2006, 11:24 PM

I think Kenny after seeing this performance from Logan (at least I hope) will make some changes, because that is not going to cut it.

I sure hope you are right. I hope we've seen the last of Boone Logan for a while. All Logan had to do tonight was properly field his position (i.e. cover first on one play and stay out of Crede's way on another play) and Tampa scores only 2 runs, at most, in the 5th instead of 4 runs. If he makes a good throw to Iguchi on the first bunt, then Tampa scores maybe only 1 run in the 5th..... maybe no runs. This guy needs to be taught how to field his position. His play tonight was inexcusible for a guy pitching in the Major Leagues. He looks like a guy that never played the game before. I've seen Little Leaguers with more awareness and a better understanding of where they need to be on the field. I don't recall the Sox winning any games this season, in which both Logan and Thornton pitched in the same game.

Corlose 15

05-16-2006, 11:26 PM

Corlose:

Very good question. He 'only' pitched six innings allowing zero runs.

Why Nelson?...at this point because he's had success in the major leagues for a long period of time. At least he won't crap in his pants when he steps on the mound. Can Lopez or the other 'can't miss kids' make the same claim?

Who do the Sox 'audition' next? Duane Ward? Mike Bertotti? How about Jason Grilli LOL.

If Nelson can't cut it what have the Sox lost? I mean it's not like Logan, Thornton, Haegar or Montero (or whatever the hell his name is) has been worth a damn.

Lip

Oh, I agree that they should bring up Nelson, I'm just not totally sold that he's going to solve anything. You're absolutely right that he's a veteran presence and you certainly won't see the type of inning out of him that Logan had tonight, its just I have images of Mike Jackson running through my mind and I just hope Nelson isn't all washed up like he was. Its just a pessimistic attitude based on previous performances of Sox pitchers in this sort of situation.

SoxSpeed22

05-16-2006, 11:35 PM

Yes.
I've wanted Lopez to get the spot since spring training. Although Thornton's outing was pleasing.

SoxFan76

05-16-2006, 11:58 PM

From what I remember, Lopez isn't a "can't miss kid". He's had major league experience.

RichFitztightly

05-17-2006, 12:02 AM

I think Thornton is fine, and Logan just needs consistent work which means he'd be better served in the minors. Jeff Nelson, while I still am a big fan of, is nothing more than a righty hitter specialist at this point in his career. His sidearm motion and reduced velocity just sets the ball up there for the lefties to do what they wish with the pitch.

I can respect the crowd who wants a veteran relief pitcher now. I'd be willing to part with one or three of these lower tier "prospects" for one good veteran reliever. In the meantime, I'm not ready to jump off a bridge if there's no lineup shuffling. The situation isn't that dire.

drewcifer

05-17-2006, 12:07 AM

No offense folks but I can do without seeing another 'has been' audition for the left handed relief role. Bring up Nelson when he's ready and go out and get someone with experience. I don't care if he's left handed or right handed.

Anybody's got to be better then the cast of clowns we've been auditioning since spring training for the back end of the bullpen.

Lip

On your page again.

I want some experience and some winning experience. A champion.

Lopez = NO. We have enough of that up here and down below.

Need a stop gap who has been to the show.

A. Cavatica

05-17-2006, 12:30 AM

Need a stop gap who has been to the show.

How about a 29-year old lefty with 171 games of major league experience?

One who went 4-1 with a 3.70 ERA in his first season (75 appearances) despite pitching for Colorado?

One who gave up 4 walks and struck out 17 in 14.2 innings this spring, and has been untouchable at AAA ever since?

That's Javier Lopez.

Foulke You

05-17-2006, 12:41 AM

I'm hoping for Jeff Nelson to come up myself. He certainly can't do any worse than Logan has, and like Lip said, you can't argue the mental toughness of a guy with 5 World Series Championship rings as setup man to Mariano Rivera. He could be the type of shrewd KW pickup that really provides the bullpen stability and veteran leadership that we lost when Dustin Hermanson went down.

If he is indeed a "has been", then there is no harm done in trading or releasing him and you are no worse off than when you had the A ball pitcher, Logan. Seems like a no brainer.

ondafarm

05-17-2006, 12:41 AM

I sure hope you are right. I hope we've seen the last of Boone Logan for a while. All Logan had to do tonight was properly field his position (i.e. cover first on one play and stay out of Crede's way on another play) and Tampa scores only 2 runs, at most, in the 5th instead of 4 runs. If he makes a good throw to Iguchi on the first bunt, then Tampa scores maybe only 1 run in the 5th..... maybe no runs. This guy needs to be taught how to field his position. His play tonight was inexcusible for a guy pitching in the Major Leagues. He looks like a guy that never played the game before. I've seen Little Leaguers with more awareness and a better understanding of where they need to be on the field. I don't recall the Sox winning any games this season, in which both Logan and Thornton pitched in the same game.

Everybody has a bad game. The kid's head wasn't in it. I think Cooper used this as a good learning tool for the kid and he'll learn from this experience and be a useful pitcher at a later date, next year or possibly beyond that.

Having said that, I think he's headed down but not permanently.

drewcifer

05-17-2006, 12:44 AM

How about a 29-year old lefty with 171 games of major league experience?

One who went 4-1 with a 3.70 ERA in his first season (75 appearances) despite pitching for Colorado?

One who gave up 4 walks and struck out 17 in 14.2 innings this spring, and has been untouchable at AAA ever since?

That's Javier Lopez.

No thanks.

Chicken Dinner

05-17-2006, 12:44 AM

I can't believe people are hoping and waiting for Jeff Nelson. If you think a guy that nobody wanted is going to save this pen, well think again.

Chips

05-17-2006, 12:48 AM

Maybe our starters can just picth complete games all season long and we won't need a bullpen.:redneck

drewcifer

05-17-2006, 12:50 AM

Holy crap.... I almost agree.

beckett21

05-17-2006, 12:56 AM

I can't believe people are hoping and waiting for Jeff Nelson. If you think a guy that nobody wanted is going to save this pen, well think again.

Probably true, but:

1) It's too early to get anyone worth anything;

2) if/when Nelson doesn't pan out, there is still time to get someone else.

The only guys available right now are guys nobody wanted. The quality arms are not going to be dealt for another month or so at least. There is nothing to lose by seeing what Nelson's got left--especially after tonight's debacle.

Logan's just in over his head. It's not his fault that he's in the position he's in right now. I'm sure no one feels worse about his performance tonight than he does.

There is time to fix the pen, and it will eventually get fixed.

drewcifer

05-17-2006, 12:57 AM

I can't believe people are hoping and waiting for Jeff Nelson. If you think a guy that nobody wanted is going to save this pen, well think again.
What the hell did you think of El Duque last year then????

<You make some good posts, and you make some that seem like you're from some foreign land sometimes.>

NEVER discount experience. EVER.

Corlose 15

05-17-2006, 01:00 AM

What the hell did you think of El Duque last year then????

<You make some good posts, and you make some that seem like you're from some foreign land sometimes.>

NEVER discount experience. EVER.

El Duque's era was over 5 last year and its over 7 this year. The only reason people are recomending him for the BP this year is because of that amazing inning in Boston.

drewcifer

05-17-2006, 01:03 AM

Probably true, but:

1) It's too early to get anyone worth anything;

2) if/when Nelson doesn't pan out, there is still time to get someone else.

The only guys available right now are guys nobody wanted. The quality arms are not going to be dealt for another month or so at least. There is nothing to lose by seeing what Nelson's got left--especially after tonight's debacle.

Logan's just in over his head. It's not his fault that he's in the position he's in right now. I'm sure no one feels worse about his performance tonight than he does.

<You make some good posts, and you make some that seem like you're from some foreign land sometimes.>

NEVER discount experience. EVER.

Obviously El Duque was our weakest starter. Experience is valuable but getting it sometimes can be more valuable. There were 30 teams that could of had Nelson. No one nibbled. All I can say is "we"ll see" but I'm not holding my breath.

Chips

05-17-2006, 01:04 AM

El Duque's era was over 5 last year and its over 7 this year. The only reason people are recomending him for the BP this year is because of that amazing inning in Boston.

Exactly, that inning was one of my favorite parts of the playoffs, but it was last year and we traded him to get the best 5th starter in baseball.

What's the worst that could happen? Better to find out in May than July.

drewcifer

05-17-2006, 01:09 AM

What's the worst that could happen? Better to find out in May than July.
Bang!!

<I have no clue what the rest of the boys are talking about, anymore>

Lip Man 1

05-17-2006, 01:15 AM

Cavatica:

If Lopez is so damn good why has he bounced around all over creation? Obviously more then one team doesn't think much of him do they?

Besides gang we're all in a dither about nothing. The ax is getting ready to fall. From tonight's Tribune recap by Mark Gonzales:

Before left-hander Scott Kazmir limited the Sox to one run for seven innings, Guillen planned to talk to general manager Ken Williams and his coaching staff about potential roster changes when they return home Friday for a six-game homestand against the Cubs and Oakland.

The story wasn't about the hitting. It then talks about Contreras returning over the weekend so more then likely a pitcher is going to be cut loose.

Lip

Chicken Dinner

05-17-2006, 01:30 AM

Chicken:

The story wasn't about the hitting. It then talks about Contreras returning over the weekend so more then likely a pitcher is going to be cut loose.

Lip

I guess we'll just see what happens. Not a big Thornton or Boone fan. Lefties in the pen are nice, but they have to be good lefties.

iamkoza

05-17-2006, 01:35 AM

the entire bullpen needs to learn how to throw strike 1

but boone is pretty much useless to the team, doesnt seem like he has an confidence in his offspeed stuff.. making his non moving fastball that much easier to hit.

A. Cavatica

05-17-2006, 02:13 AM

Cavatica:

If Lopez is so damn good why has he bounced around all over creation? Obviously more then one team doesn't think much of him do they?

Lip:

He doesn't have to be damn good, he just has to be better than Logan. We're talking about the mopup role.

I'm all for bringing up Nelson after he spends another couple of weeks tuning up at Charlotte, but I don't think he's ready to come up tomorrow, and odds are they bring up a lefty to replace a lefty.

goon

05-17-2006, 02:27 AM

thornton is next? give me a break. the guy's control has been better than it was with seattle and with exception to a few innings, which were crap innings anyways, thornton has pitched fine... and i haven't missed a game.

his worst games:

april 7th @ KC : 4BB, 3 hits, 2ER
may 10th vs. LAA: 2 hits, 2ER ... in the rain, in a game they were already losing. remember bobby coming in and... well, i'd just rather not talk about it.

other than that, he has no losses, 6BB, has given up 1 hr and has 11 SO. look for another scapegoat.

though i do agree, boone is not ready for this stage yet, but who should they bring up? i sure as hell don't know, neither does anyone on this board, that's for Ozzie, Kenny and his disciples to decide.

hawkjt

05-17-2006, 03:07 AM

Thornton was absolutely nasty tonite. 99 mph on the gun. He stays.Good relievers are not out there laying around to pick up. Everyone always is looking for relief help and wholesale changes are hard to make at this point.

Boone had about the worst 4 batter sequence that I can remember and then it spread to juan and joe. I hate that frigging dome.

Chez

05-17-2006, 08:51 AM

Who do the Sox 'audition' next? Duane Ward? Mike Bertotti? How about Jason Grilli LOL.

Brian Ward? Duane Ward was a pretty good pitcher for Torornto. Brian was crap for us.

GoSox2K3

05-17-2006, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by A. Cavatica
How about a 29-year old lefty with 171 games of major league experience?

One who went 4-1 with a 3.70 ERA in his first season (75 appearances) despite pitching for Colorado?

One who gave up 4 walks and struck out 17 in 14.2 innings this spring, and has been untouchable at AAA ever since?

That's Javier Lopez.

No thanks.

What the hell did you think of El Duque last year then????

<You make some good posts, and you make some that seem like you're from some foreign land sometimes.>

NEVER discount experience. EVER.

...and yet you just discounted experience. So, what exactly is your definition of "NEVER" and "EVER" typed in caps and bold?

Hangar18

05-17-2006, 09:09 AM

That performance cost us the game. I havnt seen a guy implode like that in quite some time. Then again, its all OZZIES fault for putting him and Thornton in these positions. THey arent ready. They are the new and younger Mike Jackson. As soon as I saw him in, I SAID THE GAME WAS OVER. This is 4 games that Ozz has thrown away now using those clowns.
Games add up.

GoSox2K3

05-17-2006, 09:09 AM

Bang!!

<I have no clue what the rest of the boys are talking about, anymore>

...and what's with the condescending comments in brackets?:rolleyes: Even if you disagree with others, how about showing a little respect around here.

jenn2080

05-17-2006, 09:20 AM

Once Boone came in I stopped watching. IT is time for him to go down. I cant take watching him anymore.

infohawk

05-17-2006, 09:23 AM

Whats the status on Jeff Nelson? Im so sick of Logan, Montero, and Thornton.
I really believe that Thornton will be a useful addition to the pen. He had a good outing last night. I'd stick with him, but I completely agree on Montero and Logan.

Boone Logan? Cool name....but it's time for him to go back to the minors and develop.

Ozzie's doing exactly what we thought he would be doing...sifting through a cobbled together bullpen to see what works/what doesn't. Politte seems to be coming around...so Jenks/Cotts/Politte/McCarthy/Thornton/Nelson...could shape up to be a decent bullpen.

infohawk

05-17-2006, 09:26 AM

No offense folks but I can do without seeing another 'has been' audition for the left handed relief role. Bring up Nelson when he's ready and go out and get someone with experience. I don't care if he's left handed or right handed.

Anybody's got to be better then the cast of clowns we've been auditioning since spring training for the back end of the bullpen.

Lip
The problem the bullpen has had is not with has-beens, but never-will-be's.

infohawk

05-17-2006, 09:31 AM

In the meantime, I'm not ready to jump off a bridge if there's no lineup shuffling. The situation isn't that dire.
You've hit it right on the head. The Sox are not a team constructed in a way that a lights-out bullpen is an absolute necessity. Sure, KW should seek any upgrades he can, but this team's advantage is the amount of innings chewed up by the starters. I really do believe that KW will upgrade the pen by the trade deadline. If he does, an already great team will become that much harder to beat.

Minnie Me

05-17-2006, 09:36 AM

Maybe Loone should work on a knuckle-ball,that would be something to see.

Frater Perdurabo

05-17-2006, 09:53 AM

Boone Logan just isn't ready for the major leagues. He knows it. Ozzie and Kenny know it. We all know it. Stop beating a dead horse.

What many of you are forgetting is that this whole situation started when Contreras went on the DL. If Contreras had been pitching against the Angels, the Sox would not have given up 12 runs (6 of which were very early, and the last six against a bullpen that was mis-managed out of necessity, because Haeger didn't do what Sox starters are supposed to do). If Contreras had been pitching against the Devil Rays, he likely would have pitched deeper into last night's game. McCarthy, Politte, Cotts or Jenks likely would have gotten the call from the pen, and the Sox would not have given up 10 runs.

IMHO, playing it safe with Contreras still was the right move to make. It cost the Sox two games in May. Yes, losses add up, but the Sox still are tied for the best record in the majors, with a Cy Yong-caliber starting pitcher set to come off the DL to start a game this weekend.

Moreno and Logan will be gone by this weekend. Conteras and either Nelson or Lopez will take their place. Nelson or Lopez will see very infrequent action - mop up duty in games in which the Sox probably are winning big or infrequently losing big. If neither Nelson or Lopez can cut it, Kenny will make a trade (perhaps overpaying in prospects, but so what!?!) to get a solid reliever in June.

Boone Logan? Cool name....but it's time for him to go back to the minors and develop.

Ozzie's doing exactly what we thought he would be doing...sifting through a cobbled together bullpen to see what works/what doesn't. Politte seems to be coming around...so Jenks/Cotts/Politte/McCarthy/Thornton/Nelson...could shape up to be a decent bullpen.

I agree. I'm not ready to run to the window ledge over our bullpen. I'm not sure why people are so ready to throw Thornton under the bus. Is he an all-star? Certainly not, but I think he's worth sticking with.

What's been hurting the Sox over the past week has been shoddy defense, losing JC and meltdowns from 3 of our 4 uninjured starters. Once those parts of our team get back on track, combined with our offense keeping up what they're doing, we're going to be alright.

infohawk

05-17-2006, 10:17 AM

That performance cost us the game. I havnt seen a guy implode like that in quite some time. Then again, its all OZZIES fault for putting him and Thornton in these positions. THey arent ready. They are the new and younger Mike Jackson. As soon as I saw him in, I SAID THE GAME WAS OVER. This is 4 games that Ozz has thrown away now using those clowns.
Games add up.
I don't know what else Ozzie should have done. He can't run Cotts and Politte out there every day. Their role is really to pitch when the Sox have a lead in the late innings. If they are overused and wear down we'll have some really big problems. We really miss Hermanson.

woodsdavid

05-17-2006, 10:43 AM

Tonight was about the most thorough meltdown you're going to see from a marginal young pitcher. It was almost comical how he didn't play balls he should have, did play balls he shouldn't have, and generally crapped the bed. Not covering first base is just a cardinal sin, and it probably accounts for the fact that NO ONE in the dugout gave him a pat on the back when he came off the field (though Ozzie did give him one on the mound).

I'd hate to see him sent down right after an outing like that, because the taste will linger for him even if he doesn't get demoted. But we'll see if Kenny feels forgiving . . .

Vernam

Meltdown and crapped the bed are understatements. Last night's game was embarrassing. Middle relief is a mess and we're trying to fill in critical gaps with guys that should be in Birmingham. We're going to kill this kid's confidence long term by putting him in over his head.

Whatever Boone had in ST is gone and this team has too much at stake to continue to spend time on this guy. That's what AA and AAA are for -- to develop talent. And while Boone's fielding and defense were awful, it still comes down to being unable to get guys out on the mound.

With Garland having serious issues and even Buehrle and Vasquez having some of their own struggles, the need for middle relief is an problem that we just didn't have last year. McCarthy is great, but he is a kid too and is having his own problems making the transition from starter to reliever.

Just when I think CF is our biggest problem I look at our scores this week:
L: 7-10 TB
W: 7-3 MN
W: 9-7 MN
L: 4-8 MN
L: 1-10 MN
L: 5-12 LAA
For the week, that's 8.33 runs per game. Take out the Garcia's win and we're giving up 9.4 runs per game to mediocre teams.

We need help.

daveeym

05-17-2006, 10:50 AM

That performance cost us the game. I havnt seen a guy implode like that in quite some time. Then again, its all OZZIES fault for putting him and Thornton in these positions. THey arent ready. They are the new and younger Mike Jackson. As soon as I saw him in, I SAID THE GAME WAS OVER. This is 4 games that Ozz has thrown away now using those clowns.
Games add up.Come on Hangar, this thread was a pleasure to read until you typed that. Good heated but respectful debate. Since there's no clear answer to the situation everyone had pretty valid arguments. Then you come in with this. Didn't last year show you anything?

What's Ozzie to do, burn out his A guys in the pen in May? When they have the best record in the league? As this thread shows there's no other good options out there. Nelson probably needs a few more innings first, the rest in the minors are as risky as anyone else. Also, hasn't Ozzie's stubborness/faith in his players worked out to the Sox advantage more times than not? Let's see, Jenks, Pods, Crede, Uribe (right now), any one of the prior basketcase starters.

Ozzie has had this team leading the AL for 98% of the last two years with this strategy and regularly resting his everday lineup. You're going to now bitch about 4 games when your only suggestion is burn out the pen?????

ondafarm

05-17-2006, 10:50 AM

There really are only a trio of votes that count here: Cooper, Guillen and Williams.

That having been said, I think Thonton has shown enough to stick at least for now.

Loogan I think has some time down and Montero has some time back down. I'm confident the Sox organization will do things right to let them know what they need to do to return to the Sox and if they take care of that will be back, although possibly not this year. The White Sox always seem to be preparing for next year, even while chasing the pennant this year.

SBSoxFan

05-17-2006, 11:01 AM

I agree, it's time for Logan to be sent down. It's not like it's a demotion. Even with being sent down, he's made the jump from rookie ball to AAA --- that's something for him to feel good about. Lopez likely deserves a shot based on what he's done in ST and at AAA.

Thornton? He stayin'.

credefan24

05-17-2006, 11:34 AM

Isn't it possible that Logan can go down to AAA for a month or 2, and come back up with more confidence, and an improved outlook? It worked for McCarthy.

Law11

05-17-2006, 12:39 PM

You have to look at this from KW standpoint. Late in the year can you depend on the bullpen? Our bullpen is definitely our weak spot. This past week reminded me of the no 5th starter disaster from a few years ago.

Was waiting for Danny Wright to show up...

Anyone else tired of hearing how great this guy or that guy's numbers are at Charlotte, or how he dominated in Tucson....

Then come up here and cant get anyone out.

I trust Kenny but thres only so much pitching out there to get...

A. Cavatica

05-17-2006, 01:06 PM

"No, really, they're saying Booooooone......"

:D:

soxfanreggie

05-17-2006, 01:13 PM

I agree with most everyone that Logan needs to be sent down. He had a great ST, but like others have said, he's just not ready. It's time for us to try something else and a different arm in the bullpen.

Captian Ron

05-17-2006, 01:22 PM

Logan goes and so does Anderson. I like Anderson but he's just not cuttin it for me at the plate. He looks like a high school freshman at the plate.
How about this guy in center http://images2.sportsline.com/images/baseball/mlb/players/60x80/10813.jpg

LauraJ14

05-17-2006, 01:50 PM

Logan goes and so does Anderson. I like Anderson but he's just not cuttin it for me at the plate. He looks like a high school freshman at the plate.
How about this guy in center http://images2.sportsline.com/images/baseball/mlb/players/60x80/10813.jpg

Anderson is not going anywhere, defensively he is better than anything else the Sox have to play in outfield.

rpac44

05-17-2006, 01:55 PM

Anderson is not going anywhere, defensively he is better than anything else the Sox have to play in outfield.yeah he's helping the team out defensively and he was hitting better the six games before last night-our offense is good enough that it can produce while BA is still somewhat getting a feel for hitting in the major leagues

we have nobody ready to replace him in center and there's no reason to crush his confidence by having him go from starting CF for the defending champs straight to charlotte, he is our CF of the future after all

FedEx227

05-17-2006, 01:59 PM

Yeah, thats Anderson-haters for you. Its only offense for them. Remember the many years we stuck with Crede even when he was hitting awfully... but knew we couldn't get rid of him because of his great defense. Well its paid off, having confidence in one aspect of his game has allowed him gain confidence on the offensive end.

Sorry to hijack though....

but I agree, Logan down, Lopez up.

Lip Man 1

05-17-2006, 02:08 PM

This and That:

Infohawk asks 'what can Ozzie do?' Well for one thing (and apparently roster changes are about to be discussed...) Ozzie can go to Kenny and in his unique way demand that Williams go out and get some relief help. Trade the whole damn minor league system if you have to since Kenny at least has to be held somewhat responsible for not doing this back in December / January.

Infohawk also says the way the Sox are set up they really don't need a lot from the pen. Interesting position. I guess he expects the Sox starters to go deep into every single game for the entire season. (Which is something they didn't do last year even with the starters pitching collectively better then...)

I guess he also forget about the three 'blown' games already by the bullpen which resulted in losses on April 5, April 8 and May 5 plus the near loss after the bullpen blew the lead on May 3rd (saved by Ozuna's HR)

Goon while stating his case for Thornton also 'forgets' about Matt's role in the blown loss on May 5th. A game I personally saw. Thornton opened the 9th inning by walking Aaron Guiel after having two strikes on him. SURPRISE! Guile scored the tying run in an eventual four run 9th inning. Thornton is still to big of a risk in my opinion in a close game. Games that could be crucial come September.

Frater points out that this is all the result of Jose missing two starts and that it's not a long term problem.

It was a point I made in the game thread only here is where Frater and I disagree. If this can happen when a starter misses two starts what happens if a starter really gets hurt? Where's the mental toughness out of the pen simply because the 'roles' have changed for a short period of time? If they are in such disarray after only ten days what happens if they have to do this for six weeks?

This could turn out to be a blessing. It shows clearly the gaping holes in the bullpen and provides more incentive for things to be rectified by some guys who actually know what they are doing.

Lip

California Sox

05-17-2006, 02:13 PM

This whole thread points to the importance of minor league depth. That, unfortunately, is something the White Sox simply lack right now. And the most glaring area of weakness is right-handed pitchers suitable for bullpen duty. That's why we're stuck with 28 year-old journeymen like Thornton, Montero, Lopez, and Farnsworth as options in the middle as well as a questionable prospect like Logan. It's possible that late in the season Broadway could be brought up as a stopgap, but I don't think he really profiles well as a reliever. I favor bringing Nelson up, not because I believe he'll dominate, but because I've run out of other ideas.

Hangar18

05-17-2006, 02:18 PM

Come on Hangar, this thread was a pleasure to read until you typed that. You're going to now bitch about 4 games when your only suggestion is burn out the pen?????

Problem: You, Me, Everyone know that Logan/Thornton are NOT GOOD
Solution: Do not put them in games in a tie or were up by one run.

All thats happening now is that theyre confidence gets worse by the second.
Games that are close ............. use the guys you trust. Games that arent?
use Logan/Thornton instead of a new pitcher every other batter and wearing down the bullpen for no real reason. These guys have cost us games every single time Ozz has mis-used them. Thats all Im saying. I know we have noone else to put there, so if thats the case, dont SET THEM UP TO FAIL.

My KW comments stand. He took 2 bad pitchers out of our bullpen and turned them into very good bench players. He never replaced the bad pitchers with GOOD pitchers. Hope Nelsonn gets here soon

Well, the Sox have a World Series trophy to show for the "lack of depth right now."

Logan will be demoted when Jose comes back, if not sooner. Brandon goes back to the pen and we really only need one more bullpen guy. Pick up a guy around the trade deadline and the Sox should be set.

DaleJRFan

05-17-2006, 02:45 PM

My KW comments stand. He took 2 bad pitchers out of our bullpen and turned them into very good bench players. He never replaced the bad pitchers with GOOD pitchers. Hope Nelsonn gets here soon

AGREED. He filled one hole while creating another... Marte/Vizcaino vs. Logan/Thornton (with McCarthy replacing Hermanson) - I'd have to go with Vizcaino and Marte, but the bench is SO much better with Mackowiak and Cintron. The rotation is SO much better with Vazquez.

Can't really argue with your point, BUT we can't all expect KW to be flawless all the time and create a "perfect team". The Sox sport the best rotation, (one of the) best offense, best team defense and best bench in the AL. Bullpen is the only weakness, hell, its the only part of the team that ISN'T the best in the AL.

Deadline comes, I'm positive this issue will be solved. I just hope its not too late by the deadline.

daveeym

05-17-2006, 02:57 PM

Problem: You, Me, Everyone know that Logan/Thornton are NOT GOOD
Solution: Do not put them in games in a tie or were up by one run.

All thats happening now is that theyre confidence gets worse by the second.
Games that are close ............. use the guys you trust. Games that arent?
use Logan/Thornton instead of a new pitcher every other batter and wearing down the bullpen for no real reason. These guys have cost us games every single time Ozz has mis-used them. Thats all Im saying. I know we have noone else to put there, so if thats the case, dont SET THEM UP TO FAIL.

My KW comments stand. He took 2 bad pitchers out of our bullpen and turned them into very good bench players. He never replaced the bad pitchers with GOOD pitchers. Hope Nelsonn gets here soon Agreed he sucks, but they're in the middle of a long stretch with no off days and your starter is a replacement guy that you only got 4 innings out of. The staff also just finished up a very busy weekend. Ozzie's taking his chance in this ONE game rather then running out the better half of the pen and having them stretched thin for the next 3-4 days. It's a sound strategy/calculated gamble that usually works in the Sox favor 60% or more of the time.

Now any issues regarding the state of the pen are there but the use of the pen can't always be ideal. The upcoming schedule combined with recent usage unfortunately forces Ozzie to gamble in this instance and it will do so again in the future. You can't play to win every game 110% with your bullpen (especially this bullpen), sometimes you have to hope to get by every now and then.

As for Kenny I agree with you and that's a serious topic for discussion.

Captian Ron

05-17-2006, 03:11 PM

Yeah, thats Anderson-haters for you. Its only offense for them. Remember the many years we stuck with Crede even when he was hitting awfully... but knew we couldn't get rid of him because of his great defense. Well its paid off, having confidence in one aspect of his game has allowed him gain confidence on the offensive end.

Sorry to hijack though....

but I agree, Logan down, Lopez up.

Never said I hated Anderson I actually like him alot. But right now he needs to calm down and get better at bats.

Frater Perdurabo

05-17-2006, 03:21 PM

Frater points out that this is all the result of Jose missing two starts and that it's not a long term problem.

It was a point I made in the game thread only here is where Frater and I disagree. If this can happen when a starter misses two starts what happens if a starter really gets hurt? Where's the mental toughness out of the pen simply because the 'roles' have changed for a short period of time? If they are in such disarray after only ten days what happens if they have to do this for six weeks?

This could turn out to be a blessing. It shows clearly the gaping holes in the bullpen and provides more incentive for things to be rectified by some guys who actually know what they are doing.

Lip

Lip, I completely agree that the bullpen is a problem. I agree that Logan needs to be replaced, by Nelson or Lopez in the short term, and if both fail in the next month, then by someone acquired via trade. (I do not believe that Thornton is a problem.)

But it's a small problem that got much bigger when an "ace" starter - Contreras - went down. Name another team that would do much better than the Sox did in the two games missed by the starter - Contreras - who far and away has been the best starter they have had since last July.

I agree it's a problem, but it's not a problem that can't be addressed via a trade by giving up some minor leaguers.

Compared to previous Mays, this is about the smallest problem the Sox have faced in years. Last year, half of us (including me) were ready to cut/trade Paulie after a slow start, Hangar was ready to castrate Dye after his slow start and just because he wasn't named Carlos Lee, many worried that Contreras was struggling and thought he was overpaid, most of us (not me) were ready to cut or trade Crede, we had Carl Everett as the DH/#3 hitter, our best hitter (Frank) was on the DL, Shingo had been exposed and we were hoping the relatively unkown Hermanson could cut it as the closer. And yet the Sox had the best record in the majors then, and they are tied for it right now.

In May 2004, the Sox had three decent starting pitchers: Buehrle was the ace, Loaiza was average (after a career year in 2003) and many people called the #3 "Judy." In other recent Mays, the Sox couldn't hit their way out of a paper bag, fired hitting coaches, had unreliable starting rotations, had Billy "Propane" Koch as the closer, and didn't have a decent leadoff or #2 hitter.

In comparison, a problem in the middle relief corps of the bullpen is relatively small. The starting rotation is fine. The lineup is fine. The defense is fine. The bench is fine. Four relievers (Jenks, Cotts, McCarthy and even Politte) are fine. I'd rather have Thornton than Damaso Marte. It's ONE stinking middle relief role that's problematic, and it will be solved one way or another very soon.

:supernana:

Frater Perdurabo

05-17-2006, 03:27 PM

Another point:

Hindsight is 20/20, but it may have been a mistake to start McCarthy last night. Not because he wasn't good enough (he was fine even though he didn't go deep enough in the game), but rather because it weakened the rest of the pen, forcing Ozzie to rely on Logan when he clearly should not have done so, particularly if the starter could have pitched another inning or two. Quite honestly, it might have been better to have kept Haeger on the roster to start against Tampa, perhaps even for just four innings, and then have McCarthy come in for three or four innings. The lower altitude (St. Pete is near sea level) and lack of wind might have helped the knuckleball confuse more hitters.

SBSoxFan

05-17-2006, 03:40 PM

Goon while stating his case for Thornton also 'forgets' about Matt's role in the blown loss on May 5th. A game I personally saw. Thornton opened the 9th inning by walking Aaron Guiel after having two strikes on him. SURPRISE! Guile scored the tying run in an eventual four run 9th inning. Thornton is still to big of a risk in my opinion in a close game. Games that could be crucial come September.

Lip
Since you saw the game, I guess you also realize that Thornton didn't just throw 4 straight balls to cause the walk. As I recall, it was long, high pitch at bat with several foul balls by Guiel. While I still think Thornton should have gotten him out, I think that's a poor example to instantiate that Thornton sucks.

Which do you think is the "real" Matt Thornton? The one who pitched May 5th or the one who pitched last night (2 strikeouts, 98 mph fastball)? I'm willing to bet on the latter, and believe he should have more time to get it right. Besides, since he's out of options, there's no other place to test him then at the major league level.

CWSpalehoseCWS

05-17-2006, 04:26 PM

I find it odd that the Sox are still only carrying 11 pitchers. Their bullpen is not what I would call solid. As much as I like Ross Gload, he rarely plays. Why not trade him or try to sneak him through waivers for another pitcher?

goon

05-17-2006, 05:45 PM

Since you saw the game, I guess you also realize that Thornton didn't just throw 4 straight balls to cause the walk. As I recall, it was long, high pitch at bat with several foul balls by Guiel. While I still think Thornton should have gotten him out, I think that's a poor example to instantiate that Thornton sucks.

Which do you think is the "real" Matt Thornton? The one who pitched May 5th or the one who pitched last night (2 strikeouts, 98 mph fastball)? I'm willing to bet on the latter, and believe he should have more time to get it right. Besides, since he's out of options, there's no other place to test him then at the major league level.

precisley. considering where thornton has been and where he is now, is practically night and day. true, our bullpen needs help, but our bullpen is much better with matt in the mix, that fastball has got about as much zip on it as bobby's and with his control (of course, i'm just analyzing from stats because i didn't get an opportunity to watch him for the mariners) is considerably better than last year. ozzie and coop are using him the right way, baby steps until his confidence is even higher.

also think about this, who is thornton replacing? damaso marte. thronton can be a better reliever than damaso (for chicago, not the pirates because everyone knows how well he is doing in the NL). like i said, find another scapegoat.

caulfield12

05-17-2006, 05:58 PM

Agreed about Thornton. Have not had the chance to watch him much, only over the television, but how many lefties are there in the majors throwing in the high 90īs, even if it is flat sometimes?

Many remember the Alan Embree experiment, that didnīt work...although he did get his stuff back later on down the line. Every ball he threw was flat and came in at 94-96 MPH. But he absolutely got tattooed when he was with us....

As I said, Iīve seen enough Tony Castilloīs, Ray Searageīs and Tony Fossasīs to go around. This kid could become a stud...and we would definitely lose him if we tried to sneak him through waivers.

The Royals have a couple of similar guys in Affeldt and Sisco, and thatīs why they have been so patient wit those two.

There are tons of hard throwing righties with control issues, but we have nothing to lose holding onto Thornton, and plenty of upside. Personally, I would much prefer Thornton to having Vizcaino or Marte back.

I envision Thornton just as easily being a closer as Cotts or Politte in an emergency situation.

DickAllen72

05-17-2006, 06:22 PM

thornton is next? give me a break. the guy's control has been better than it was with seattle and with exception to a few innings, which were crap innings anyways, thornton has pitched fine... and i haven't missed a game.

his worst games:

april 7th @ KC : 4BB, 3 hits, 2ER
may 10th vs. LAA: 2 hits, 2ER ... in the rain, in a game they were already losing. remember bobby coming in and... well, i'd just rather not talk about it.

other than that, he has no losses, 6BB, has given up 1 hr and has 11 SO. look for another scapegoat.

though i do agree, boone is not ready for this stage yet, but who should they bring up? i sure as hell don't know, neither does anyone on this board, that's for Ozzie, Kenny and his disciples to decide.

A voice of reason.

kitekrazy

05-17-2006, 06:43 PM

AGREED. He filled one hole while creating another... Marte/Vizcaino vs. Logan/Thornton (with McCarthy replacing Hermanson) - I'd have to go with Vizcaino and Marte, but the bench is SO much better with Mackowiak and Cintron. The rotation is SO much better with Vazquez.

I look at Logan as our new Marte. We have to have someone in the pen that makes want to say oh ....

soxinem1

05-17-2006, 07:06 PM

This and That:

Infohawk asks 'what can Ozzie do?' Well for one thing (and apparently roster changes are about to be discussed...) Ozzie can go to Kenny and in his unique way demand that Williams go out and get some relief help. Trade the whole damn minor league system if you have to since Kenny at least has to be held somewhat responsible for not doing this back in December / January.

Infohawk also says the way the Sox are set up they really don't need a lot from the pen. Interesting position. I guess he expects the Sox starters to go deep into every single game for the entire season. (Which is something they didn't do last year even with the starters pitching collectively better then...)

I guess he also forget about the three 'blown' games already by the bullpen which resulted in losses on April 5, April 8 and May 5 plus the near loss after the bullpen blew the lead on May 3rd (saved by Ozuna's HR)

Goon while stating his case for Thornton also 'forgets' about Matt's role in the blown loss on May 5th. A game I personally saw. Thornton opened the 9th inning by walking Aaron Guiel after having two strikes on him. SURPRISE! Guile scored the tying run in an eventual four run 9th inning. Thornton is still to big of a risk in my opinion in a close game. Games that could be crucial come September.

Frater points out that this is all the result of Jose missing two starts and that it's not a long term problem.

It was a point I made in the game thread only here is where Frater and I disagree. If this can happen when a starter misses two starts what happens if a starter really gets hurt? Where's the mental toughness out of the pen simply because the 'roles' have changed for a short period of time? If they are in such disarray after only ten days what happens if they have to do this for six weeks?

This could turn out to be a blessing. It shows clearly the gaping holes in the bullpen and provides more incentive for things to be rectified by some guys who actually know what they are doing.

Lip

I agree with you for the most part, but what team has good starters in reserve, more or less three or four that give you a chance to win. McCarthy did as well as could be expected, considering he's pitched an inning or two here and there most of the year so far.

Blown saves are part of the game. I have worried about this pen since ST, but honestly, they've been bombed in games already out of hand, and the KC game (which I was at too) may have been because he over-extended Jenks. Not that it's an excuse, but Jenks was working in his third straight game. How many times has it been mentioned on this board about Jenks b2b performances?

Besides, Thornton was lights-out in the eighth of that KC game and walked the lead off man in the ninth. He didn't blow it, the lack of a fall back option did.

I think two or three of these guys are in danger, Politte included. There will come a time this year when these guys will have to work 3-4 innings a game a few times a week, so I would hope a few upgrades to the pen are made as we go along, because right now, none of them, Jenks and Cotts included, scare anyone.

soxtalker

05-17-2006, 10:10 PM

In the Thornton "debate", I agree with those who think that he's done pretty well. (And I was at the game where his walk started the meltdown in the 9th.) It's still early, however, and there's always a chance that he'll revert to the average performance of his years with Seattle. That probably won't last long here.

One comment that I don't think has been mentioned in the thread is his contract status. The Sox can't send him down to the minors, as someone will almost certainly pick him up on waivers.

Lip Man 1

05-17-2006, 11:01 PM

Soxtalker:

While I appreciate your comment about Thornton (as well as SBSoxFan) my attitude is much like Ozzie's statement a few weeks ago. 'This team is here to win, not develop kids.'

Amen!

I think Thornton can't be trusted in close games so what good is he then? If he's waived and someone else picks him up...no big deal, it's not like the Sox actually traded anything for him (well anything who's worth a damn...)

Lip

champagne030

05-17-2006, 11:30 PM

Soxtalker:

While I appreciate your comment about Thornton (as well as SBSoxFan) my attitude is much like Ozzie's statement a few weeks ago. 'This team is here to win, not develop kids.'

Amen!

I think Thornton can't be trusted in close games so what good is he then? If he's waived and someone else picks him up...no big deal, it's not like the Sox actually traded anything for him (well anything who's worth a damn...)

Lip

I think he's fine for us. Ozzie usually doesn't put him in tough spots and as a long guy I think he's serviceable (Jenks should've started the 9th of the blown game vs. the Royals - Ozzie's fault for not knowing his staff better). The Boone **** has gone on way too long. Ozzie should've learned his lesson in the first series of the season. Logan is not ready/able to get out good major league hitters on a regular basis.

Tragg

05-17-2006, 11:34 PM

Thornton has effed up bad yet. Give him a chance. If middle relievers could pitch consistently game after game, year after year, they'd be starters or closers. Howry was the top middle reliever on the market last winter, went for a big price, but we know what he's got....

beckett21

05-17-2006, 11:46 PM

If middle relievers could pitch consistently game after game, year after year, they'd be starters or closers. Howry was the top middle reliever on the market last winter, went for a big price, but we know what he's got....

There's a lot of truth in this statement.

There is a reason that these guys are middle relievers, after all. Just about every team in baseball has bullpen issues.

I have no problems with Thornton either. He hasn't looked too bad to me.

fuzzy_patters

05-18-2006, 12:03 AM

There's a lot of truth in this statement.

There is a reason that these guys are middle relievers, after all. Just about every team in baseball has bullpen issues.

I have no problems with Thornton either. He hasn't looked too bad to me.

I agree. Thornton is throwing the ball well. His velocity is up, and he has been able to get his off speed stuff over for strikes. His numbers are skewed by a couple of bad outings. That is common for relievers in May. Neither Bobby Jenks, Cliff Politte, nor Matt Thornton have thrown the ball as poorly as their numbers suggest.

MRM

05-20-2006, 06:34 PM

Tonight was about the most thorough meltdown you're going to see from a marginal young pitcher. It was almost comical how he didn't play balls he should have, did play balls he shouldn't have, and generally crapped the bed. Not covering first base is just a cardinal sin, and it probably accounts for the fact that NO ONE in the dugout gave him a pat on the back when he came off the field (though Ozzie did give him one on the mound).

I'd hate to see him sent down right after an outing like that, because the taste will linger for him even if he doesn't get demoted. But we'll see if Kenny feels forgiving . . .

Vernam

No way you send the kid down now. Seriously. I know most in here are reactionaries, but there is no way you send him down now (The Sox may prove me wrong and do it tomorrow, but I doubt it)

One bad, even horrific, outing does NOT justify demoting the kid. You have to show confidence in him or you'll risk destroying his psyche forever. IF the struggles continue to the next appearance and the one after that then sure, but not now.

Do you send down every reliever that has a horrible outing? If so The Yankees would be looking for a closer. Every player? Where is the thread advocating Andersons ouster? How about Uribe?

Give the kid a chance before throwing him under the bus. He pitched much better than expected before that horrid effort.

Lip Man 1

05-20-2006, 07:53 PM

MRM:

It's not for just one boneheaded evening. Logan hasn't gotten anyone out on a consistent basis since Haffner connected the third game of the season. In fact that friggin' ball may STILL be traveling!

Logan hasn't been able to find the plate, his walks are high, his inherited runners who have scored is very high and his ERA is almost six!

OTHER THEN THAT HE'S DOING A FINE JOB.

:rolleyes:

The kid's in over his head. Not his fault...like the Bible says, 'many are called, few are chosen...'