Mrs. Vivian Durant interview

This is an interview with Mrs . Vivian Durant. We will be talking
about her knowledge of her former pastor, Reverend Fred
Shuttlesworth.
30, 1987 .1
[The interview was conducted at her home on July
ANDREW M. MANIS: Mrs. Durant, when did you become a member of
Bethel Bapti st Church?
MRS. DURANT: Bethel Baptist Church is the only church I have
ever known . I was a member from a baby -- ten or eleven years
old . It is the only church I have ever known i n my life.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So you have lived in Birmingham .•••
MRS . DURANT: Continuously. Continuously - not in and out.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were your parents members?
MRS . DURANT: Yes indeed. My father was a trustee . My mother
had been president -- very my entire family was very very
active in Bethel until their dea th .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Can you tell me, if you were goi ng to tell me
about your church , what woul d you tell me?
MRS. DURANT: I would just tel l you I love t he very ground Bethe l
sits on. That ' s al l I can tel l you . I love it. I love it. I
l ove it. That's all I know. I was born and reared in the church
and the church was Bethel Baptist Church. That i s all I know
about churches.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me about some of your pastors other than
Reverend Shuttlesworth .
MRS . DURANT: Well, the first pastor I remember when I joined the
church was Reverend M. Sears. That was a long time ago. He was
1
a very very dedi cated pastor. At that time we d i dn 't have money .
You couldn ' t pay pastors fabulous salaries like you are paying
them now. I don't know. God had to be with that man because he
lived off nothing . As a child I remember that and my parents
used to try to double up to get food for his five chil dren. Many
times on Sunday nights as I remember, they would take up the
money they had counted , they d i dn ' t have enough money to give
Reverend Sears a penny . He said , "Take this $ 15.00 you raised
today and pay it on the church. Or pay it on the lights or pay
i t somewhere. " That man left the church many nights with nothing
in his pockets . I remember my mother , I was a little girl, i n
those days we would carry past ors a bil l of groceries . They
called it "storming the pastor." They woul d go from house to
house and get pounds of rice, pounds of sugar , you give a pound
of lar d or pound of whatever and they would get these groceries
together and at night , as a little girl I remember very well,
they would go up on the pastor ' s porch s i ng i ng a hymn. The
pastor and h i s family would run out and see what was happening.
And there they were with a bill of groceries , for which he was
grateful. I don't see how they made it. Only God made a way for
them.
ANDREW M. MANIS : This Reverend Sears
MRS. DURANT: Reverend M. Sears.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Are there any other pastors that stand out in
your memory before Reverend Shuttlessworth?
MRS. DURANT : We ll, let me see. Reverend Lasseter did a nice
2
job. We paid the church mortgage off during his pastorate.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were your parents charter members of the
church?
MRS. DURANT: Not charter members, but long time old members.
Not quite charter.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you know when the church was founded?
MRS. DURANT: I am not sure about that myself .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were there any other pastors that stand out in
your memory?
MRS. DURANT: When you say "stand out" what do you mean? You're
leading up to Reverend Shuttlesworth?
ANDREW M. MANIS: Just stand out in your memory?
MRS. DURANT: All right. Well, really they all done something
good but when you say "stand out" that means I've got to pinpoint
some things. They were just normal pastors.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you find any of your earlier pastors at
Bethel talked very much at all, or a lot or a little, in
comparison to Reverend Shuttlesworth, -- talked about fighting
segregation?
MRS. DURANT: No, in those days that question never would come
up. That was foreign to people in those days. The people didn't
even discuss it because they, in other words, in those days Black
people just felt that that was their way of life and they
accepted it and just went on and did the best they could. That
is how I would say.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you personally or did any of the people you
3
grew up with ever wonder why the pastors did not talk about it?
MRS. DURANT: I never heard anybody mention it. I never heard
anybody discuss it from that angle. It just wasn't an issue. It
just wasn't in order then. That is all I can say.
ANDREW M. MANIS: When did you begin to notice that beginning to
change?
MRS. DURANT: Well, I would say it really began to change during
Reverend Shuttleworth's time. Really, because it was at that
time that people's eyes began to open and more Black folks were
being educated and coming to knowledge of what we were supposed
to have like the other folks and as they began to be enlightened
they began to do something about it. And they began to support
those who were beginning to lead out. But in those days it just
was not an issue and nobody really didn't give it a thought.
They just made themselves satisfied. This is all we are going to
ever get and so we'll just accept it and do the best we can.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you ever personally have in your heart or
even express a sense of anger about that?
MRS. DURANT: Well, as the time moved on and the issue became hot
and people's eyes were opened that we were being neglected and
mistreated and not dealt with fairly and honestly, then
naturally, I began to sense that we are not getting what we are
supposed to get. All people were supposed to be created equal.
But in the form of the things you ask me about, nobody never gave
it a thought. We just say, "Well, this is it and so we'll just
take it and do the best we can."
4
ANDREW M. MANIS : Do you personal ly feel like it was Rever end
Shuttlesworth ' s infl uence that l ed you to star t thinking ... .
MRS . DURANT: Well, really as someone said, you know, Reverend
Shuttlesworth, in other words, as I remember , did he sort of pick
it up from Martin Luther King? I don't know . A little bit -- it
began to open his eyes and he picked up on it and went t o work on
it . I'll say it like t hat , and as he began to work on it and go
into it and open the people ' s minds and eyes and the peopl e began
to fall in line.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Let me back up and ask you what do you remember
about Reverend Shuttlesworth coming to Bethel?
MRS. DURANT: I am trying t o think. It seems that Reverend
Shuttlesworth ... a minister I am trying to get my
thoughts .... I don ' t want to say anything that I don ' t know
what I am talking about.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Reverend Martin?
MRS. DURANT: No, it wasn ' t Reverend Martin . It was a man from
Mobile. What was that man ' s name? He had been called to our
church I believe and thi s man was to come to our church and he
could not come . As I remember , vaguely , he sent Reverend
Shuttlesworth . I remember that vaguely that he sent
Shuttlesworth instead to this particular meeting . This minister
was. . . . -- I see it in my mind but I can't quote his name .
Reverend Shuttlesworth came in his stead which I guess we finally
would have to say it could have been the plan of the Lord . You
never know. See you never know what God has in store . We are
5
thinking one way but He says "No, this way ." So that was a
possibility, I don't know.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember anything of how ...• what
kind of first impression did Fred Shuttlesworth make?
MRS. DURANT: Well, I think he was kind of slow as I remember.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Personally?
MRS. DURANT: Well, it was sort of slow.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you mean by slow?
MRS. DURANT: Well, you can judge people's attitudes and
mannerisms. Sometimes you can see more than folks can say, you
know. You can get a little information there . But as I can
remember vaguely , it didn ' t take him long to impress the people
that he was the man for the hour .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember a sense in which you became
convinced that he was and what was it about him that made you
MRS. DURANT: I don ' t think I can pinpoint anything to that
extent . But I do know that as time moved on that it seems like
we got together, you know, the church and the pastor.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me something specifically about how a
pastor is called to your church.
MRS. DURANT: Well, usually a pulpit committee is elected and
this committee , send or accept -- usually when a church is vacant
they call -- preachers start rolling in. You don ' t have to
contact nobody . They start rolling in . Then the committee goes
through these and screens them, you know, then they might say
that we will give two or three an invitation , give them an
6
invit ati on to come and speak to the people. Then you see how
your congregation react . Then, you see , the committee sees what
type of minister t his i s and if he i s able to handle this
congregati on . Then they f i nally come on down and recommended.
And, of course , nothing is fina l unt i l the church votes.
Nothi ngl
ANDREW M. MANI S : How often does Bethel Church not vote in a
candidate that i s recommended? Has that ever happened?
MRS. DURANT: I don ' t thi nk so . As I can remember, I don ' t think
so.
ANDREW M. MANI S: Or d i nari ly i f that happened . . . .
MRS . DURANT: As I remember , that never did happen.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So , slowly Reverend Shuttl esworth begins to
MRS DURANT: Oh yes l Came to h i s own as pastor of that church .
ANDREW M. MAN I S : What did Bethel Church want from a pastor?
What does Bet he l Church expect in a pastor?
MRS. DURANT : Well, I would and Bethel Church would expect a
l eader who i s capabl e of leadi ng . You can ' t l ead from behi nd .
You have to be in front to l ead . Now Bethel Church i s a
historical chur ch in Bi rmi ngham and particul arly -- this i s a
l a r ge Black area . You haven ' t been out here long enough to know,
but t his i s one of the largest Black a r eas in Birmingham. The
man must be prepared and qualified to past or the kind of people
that ' s i n its membership . NOW , for i nstance , our church , i n all
the t i me , as I tol d you a few mi nutes ago , that people began to
7
get educated and began to move higher in fields and all like that
and they became more independent and intellectual and all, so, in
our church a leader would have to be on the ball a little bit
because he is not pastoring a congregation of people who do not
know any better, or just sit and listen. He is pastor of people
who, if he is not careful, could tell him something. You know,
now, for instance, a preacher in a rural church would maybe go
two Sundays a month or just one Sunday a month and people just
come to church. He just preach and go back home. But you see,
you donlt have that kind of church at Bethel. You have people
sitting up in that congregation who have Ph.D. degrees, you got
principals of schools. Mr. Winston is principal of Hayes High
School over here. You have a County Commissioner there. You
have people in there. Bethel has any number of nurses and it is
loaded with teachers. So what I am saying is a man must have
qualifications in order to stand his ground.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Was that true back in the 50s?
MRS. DURANT: Not as true as it is now. As I said before, you
have more educated and qualified people in your congregation now.
You canlt get somebody up there just hollering or saying a word
or two and sit down. You canlt do that now. You get it out and
you got to bring it. Now that is the type of church we have now.
We have always had a segment of intelligent people but not like
we have now.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So it wasnlt quite as well educated in 1953?
MRS. DURANT: Oh no indeed. Not like now. No indeed! No
8
indeed ! We have littl e girl s out t here now 19 and 20 years o l d
with t heir masters . We have i t now. That ' s r i ght! Which means
a minister can ' t just get up and sit down . You can ' t do that
now . You have got to know how to lead . And see , there ' s more I
would think as a minister , maybe I am wrong and if I am wrong , I
wish you would correct me because I do want t o be as near right
as possibl e . It ' s more to a pastorate than getting up on Sunday
mor n i ng , say a few words and then sitting down. To pastor is
a l most an everyday job I would thi nk . To pastor now .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you t hink that involves?
MRS . DURANT: We ll , you have got t o have a program to keep the
people busy . There are a l l ki nd of mini stry programs and we go
to national meetings in t he Baptist church . And every t ime they
go they bri ng back programs and plans of how to build your
church. How to make it more spiritual and what have you. And
those p r ograms , you have to put them into pract ice , into motion.
In doi ng that, you see , your minis t er ought to be up front wi th
you or whoever brings this in and he l p him put this progr am into
action . So , i ts more t han just corning up to the pulpit on
Sunday. And then all week you wor k and you expect your salary .
See , you expect your salary. And you have a right to get your
sal ary. You know , you have a right to get your salary .
ANDREW M. MANIS : How we l l do you thi nk Reverend Shuttlesworth
f i t the expectations of Bethel Baptist Church?
MRS . DURANT: Well , at that time . ...
ANDREW M. MANIS: Now I am talking about as pastor of the church ,
9
not necessarily as Civil Rights leader?
MRS. DURANT: I know what you mean. I understand. Well, at that
time he filled the bill. He filled the bill. Reverend
Shuttlesworth was an educated man. He was in a position to fill
the bill.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you think his strengths were, his
greatest strengths as a pastor?
MRS DURANT: Well, I will just say he was an all-around man. I
can't think at the moment of anything I can pinpoint in that
length of time, anything I could put my finger on something
easily right quick.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember any particular themes that he
used to preach about a lot?
MRS. DURANT: I wouldn't guess at that?
ANDREW M. MANIS: Why don't you try to guess?
MRS. DURANT: Oh, Lord. Oh, Lord. I don't know. I just remember
seeing him so many times from the pulpit and all like that. But
I don't remember. Somebody else can guess. I don't want to try
because I wouldn't want to misquote anything like that.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Okay, what do you do you remember anything
-- how did the people in the people in the church feel or how did
they express their feelings after the Supreme Court said that
segregation was unconstitutional in 1954?
MRS. DURANT: Well, the people just shouted and praised and just
had a fit. It was just jubilant and overjoyed. Yes indeedl
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you have any particular memories of how you
10
personally felt.
MRS . DURANT: We were just all so happy that I don't know how I
felt. We were just so elated and happy. Just elated and happy.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were there any statements of Reverend
Shuttlesworth around that time that you can recall? Was there
any particular special service or special sermon?
MRS. DURANT: Well, I tell you what, one of the things that will
stick with me for a long long time, was the night our church was
bombed. I can tell you that.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Well, tell me about that.
MRS . DURANT: Well it was during the Christmas holidays. I will
never forget it. It was fre-e-e-e-zing, freezing cold.
Unusually cold in Birmingham. My son and his family were
visiting here from Detroit for Christmas. We heard this big
bombing. It shook our house and many houses in the areas around
it. It knocked pictures off walls onto the floor in the area.
We hollered IIThat ' s our church, that ' s our church.1I We ran to
the front door. We ran into the yard. We could see all that
black smoke just up in the sky like judgement day. Just up in
the sky. Just pouring. That's our church. That ' s our church.
And right there in my dining room --it broke my chandelier
right there in my dining room over that table. The people from
allover were there . They said people were there from Bessemer
and they got word. The word began to spread. Many of them heard
it. They didn ' t know what it was but they heard it. But the
moment we heard it, knowing the situation, we knew it was our
11
church. We knew it. We went, we went, the people from the area
-- and when the policemen got there they roped it off, of course.
And I remember how a young man told me -- he lived right up the
street. He said, "Mrs. Durant, those police are just talking to
people like dogs." He said, "I am telling you, there like to
have been a race war, because some of those guys were going horne
to get their shotguns. There was almost a war right out here."
If somebody prevailed, said they talked to them and they told
them "That's our church. We are concerned. We want to know what
happened. Did anyone get killed?!! They wouldn't let them corne
inside those ropes. People stayed out there nearly all night.
It was a terrible thing. It was a terrible then when they bombed
our church that night. We knew it was our church when we heard
the bomb.
ANDREW M. MANIS: You are talking about the church and not -­MRS.
DURANT: Both the house and the church. See the church -­the
house was right beside the church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: This was Christmas night?
MRS. DURANT: I don't think it was Christmas night, but it was
during the Christmas season. The Christmas holiday season.
Maybe two or three days after -- during the Christmas holiday
season. That is when it was. That is how I remember it so well,
because my son was here visiting for the holidays when it
happened. That was a terrible night. So the Lord had to be in
it. Had to be on Reverend Shuttlesworth's side. He had to. To
put a bomb under his bed almost. The man didn't even -- you
12
know, there had to be a God somewhere. Had to be! And the man
walked out without a scratch on him. Now you know nobody but God
could do that. And he came out of there and our church was
really in no shape to worship in that Sunday, but everybody was
going to church if it finished falling in on us. And do you
know, that church was that way every Sunday until they got it
finished. But it was a terrible thing. It was a terrible thing
to see someone bomb a church like that. It was terrible. But it
didn't stop Shuttlesworth at all. He became more determined.
Now he was a determined man. That's why he was able to do what
he did. See, a weak-kneed person or somebody scared, they
couldn't do that. But now he went to Phillips High School down
there and they attacked him down there. I think there were some
chains I believe somebody said. But you know, a weak-kneed
person would given up, saying, "You know, my life is in danger."
But the man was determined. He never did get weak. And he went
through a lot of dangerous situations but he never did get weak.
He stayed on the job. It just seemed to have kind of pumped him
up to do more, the more danger he faced. But he was determined
and he was a strong man. Because a weak man would have fallen by
the wayside. He would have fallen by the wayside.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you go over to the church that very night?
MRS. DURANT: Oh, everybody went. Oh, I couldn't have stayed
when the church was bombed. We left. We went by there. The
people were screaming. What they all wanted to know was did
anybody get killed? We knew the church was bombed but we wanted
13
to know did anybody get killed? The people were around the
church all night just about. There was just such an excitement,
frustrating. It was awful. It was awful.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you remember about the founding of the
Alabama Christian Movement?
MRS. DURANT: What do you mean?
ANDREW M. MANIS: The organization that was founded in June of
1956. Was that something he talked about in church services?
MRS. DURANT: Well, I don't know but it would be mentioned along
with other things. He didn't just talk it for a text or anything
like that. It was mentioned in a church service. It was
mentioned in a church service -- all of times.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were there members in the church who thought
that Reverend Shuttlesworth shouldn't have been as active in
fighting segregation as he was?
MRS. DURANT: I don't really think there was. I don't really
think there was. Nobody opposed, as I remember now. I don't
think there was. The people saw that he was determined and it
would make it better for us as Black folks. They seemed to form
in line because he was -- they realized he was not working for
Fred Shuttlesworth. He was working for the Black folk, all of
us, and we would all reap the benefits.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were you a member of the Alabama Christian
Movement?
MRS. DURANT: No, I wasn't. I supported it, but I wasn't -- I
tell you in those days there were a lot of people in certain jobs
14
-- you know a lot of people lost their jobs because of that. You
know that don't you? In certain jobs, they would support it but
they never would come out and, you know, show their face and
whatever, but they would support it. So I never did really
attend it. I was in the Birmingham Public School System. No, I
wasn't not at that time. I take that back. I hadn't started.
But anyway, I supported it but I was never active.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What was your occupation at the time?
MRS. DURANT: At that particular time I wasn't working. I was
getting ahead of myself. At that particular time, no. I wasn't
working at that particular time.
ANDREW M. MANIS: You didn't have to be a member of the
organization to attend mass meetings?
MRS. DURANT: No.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you attend mass meetings?
MRS. DURANT: No, I didn't.
ANDREW M. MANIS: For the reason that you just mentioned?
MRS. DURANT: No, I just never did go. That's all. I just never
did go.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were there persons in your family who were
actively involved in the organization?
MRS. DURANT: No.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Are there any other times that stand out in
your mind about the time Reverend Shuttlesworth spent here?
MRS. DURANT: No, nothing particular, I guess the Civil Rights
overshadowed everything -- Civil Rights activities and
15
participation. That just overshadowed everything.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What were the church members' feelings about
when Reverend Shuttlesworth was attacked at Phillips High School .
MRS. DURANT: Well, everybody was upset. Everybody was mad about
it and upset. Everybody!
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me about Mrs. Shuttlesworth:
MRS . DURANT: Well, she was a good pastor ' s - - you know all
ladies marri ed to pastors or preachers are not cut out for that.
I don't know whether you know that or not but that is true. She
was a good pastor ' s wife. She was.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Now I am going to ask you again . What did you
expect from a pastor ' s wife?
MRS. DURANT: Oh, all right. A pastor ' s wife should show concern
for t he church , the success , the progress of the church and its
pastor . A pastor ' s wife can help her husband, and she can hurt
her husband . I have been around a pretty good while and I have
seen a lot of preachers . I do a lot of traveling because I do
convention work . I think I was telling you a pastor's wife can
do big things because she stands by her husband. She supports
him . You know, a pastor should not inaugurate a program in a
church and his wife be at home. She should be there taking an
active part. They are a booster for him , the program, get the
program over. She must take -- a pastor's wife who shows concern
will do that . If she doesn ' t show concern, she is not going to
do that. A pastor ' s wife can help her husband or hurt her
husband. I know that from my experience and through the years in
16
my dealing with Baptist work. Mrs. Shuttlesworth was a good
pastor ' s wife. She really was. She was very active in different
things in the church servi ce and in everything . His children
were happy .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What impressed you the most about his wife?
MRS. DURANT: Well, she was friendly . Very very friendly. Very
cultured. She was down to earth and she was a good mixer with
the members . She didn't rush home to keep from fellowshipping .
She would stay around . See, a lot of preachers' wives -- they -­I
know. I been around a good while -- there are pastor ' s wives
that rush out the church to keep from -- nobody done anything to
them but their attitudes are not right attitudes for pastor ' s
wives. That's what I'm trying to tell you. I know a pastor, one
of my family members -- a member of the church -- when she goes
to church on Sunday she makes it her business to l eave before
she sits on the back seat now that's another bad thing for a
pastor ' s wife -- she sits on the back seat and leaves after
church , just before benediction , rush and get in her car to get
away to keep from speaking to peopl e . I know what I'm talking
about . So she can hurt her husband more than she can help him.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So you t hink Mrs. Shuttl esworth he l ped?
MRS . DURANT: I would think so , yes.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What about her activities which you would call
Civil Ri ghts activi ties?
MRS . DURANT: She was right with her husband. Far as I know, she
was with her husband.
17
ANDREW M. MANIS: So essentially the role is basically geared to
be supportive of the husband?
MRS . DURANT: That ' s right. Then there ' s hardly nothing to keep
him from succeeding . A good pastor's wife is one of the best
assets that he can have . And she can be one of the worst
liabilities he can have if she is not supportive of her husband .
ANDREW M. MANIS: I remember reading about Reverend
Shuttlesworth ' s daughter and son being arrested in Gadsden at
some point in the 60s . Do you have any recollection?
MRS . DURANT: No , I don't .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What -- I suppose I want to ask you what was
the most important accomplishment in your opinion for Bethel
Baptist Church during the Shuttlesworth period?
MRS. DURANT: With the Civil Rights overshadow, I just really
cannot remember . The only thing that pops into my mind is Civil
Rights. I really can ' t pinpoint, and I dare not try if I don ' t
know what I'm talking about.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Anything in general that stands out in your
mind and maybe a particular event that stands out in your mi nd
about Reverend Shuttlesworth?
MRS. DURANT: Not compared to what I've said. It ' s been so long.
Civil Rights just has it all wrapped up.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What about when Reverend Shuttlesworth left?
MRS. DURANT: We were a little disappointed for this reason . He
had been going to Cincinnati pretty regular , and the people got
suspicious. It was the understanding the church , and I wasn't
18
there when it happened but I couldn't go to court and yes he did.
People said throughout the membership he accepted this church in
Cincinnati without telling us. He was pastor of two churches at
one time and we didn't know it. And that was disappointing.
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did they respond when they discovered that?
MRS. DURANT: Well, they just talked among themselves how they
thought they were treated wrong. They said he should have just
accepted the church in Cincinnati and went on and not tied our
hands and let us still think he was our pastor.
ANDREW M. MANIS: I'm interested in how lay people who were
members of his church, how did he separate his role as pastor of
Bethel Baptist Church?
MRS. DURANT: Well, he didn't separate it. We were in the dark
as far as him telling us what was going on. That's why people
were disappointed in that particular incident.
ANDREW M. MANIS: I'm not talking necessarily about his going to
Cincinnati.
MRS. DURANT: What do you mean?
ANDREW M. MANIS: What I am asking is, for example, was there any
sense that, any grumbling, for example?
MRS. DURANT: Spending too much time?
ANDREW M. MANIS: Too much time with this Civil Rights and doing
his job as pastor?
MRS. DURANT: I see what you mean. Yes, there came a time, yes,
when the church felt it was being neglected.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Was that a strong feeling?
19
MRS. DURANT: Well, it was just talk about it among members
themselves. Just talk among themselves .
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did you personally feel about it?
MRS . DURANT: Well, personally I would think that I would
never say "yes" that a church should be neglected . I would never
say that .
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did you personally feel about how Reverend
Shuttlesworth was balancing his responsibilities as a pastor?
MRS. DURANT: He took his time on Civil Rights . He spent most of
his precious time on Civil Rights. The people accepted it , but ,
you know , they ....
ANDREW M. MANIS: Overall , were you happy with that arrangement?
MRS . DURANT: No , I wasn ' t. I love that church down there . The
Civil Rights work was wonderful. Don't misunderstand me.
Because I think the Black man , whatever he deserves , he should
get . He should have . I think if that's what it takes to do it
then good . But I love that corner down there (Bethel Baptist
Church] too . That ' s my first love . That ' s all I know.
ANDREW M. MANIS: But this grumbling, did it ever get strong
enough to
MRS. DURANT: Oh , no , no , no!
ANDREW M. MANIS: So there would not really have been any major
disappointment until the thing with Cincinnati?
MRS. DURANT: Yeah , that ' s right. Anything, yeah , that's major.
We were so disappointed. We thought he was just going up there,
you know , just visiting, somebody inviting him. But you know he
20
was pastoring two churches? He pastored Revelation Baptist two
Sundays and Bethel two Sundays in Birmingham and we didn't know
anything about it.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Is Revelation Church the same church as Greater
New Life?
MRS. DURANT: No, no, no, no. They dismissed him from
Revelation. Revelation is the church he left Bethel for.
No, no. This is another church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So what happened with -- do you know what
happened with Revelation?
MRS. DURANT: Misunderstanding. They couldn't get together. I
don't know what it was, I never heard exactly what it was. I
don't know whether he was on the go so much. I don't know what
it was. But they did have a falling out. I do know that.
Because I was in Cincinnati at a meeting a couple years ago. I
had a cousin there and she was telling me they had a big falling
out.
ANDREW M. MANIS: He had a falling out with the church he had
prior to Bethel?
MRS. DURANT: Maybe so.
ANDREW M. MANIS: He had a falling out in his church prior to
Bethel and after Bethel. Why do you think he did not have one at
Bethel?
MRS. DURANT: Well, he was so busy. If something had not have
come to a head when it did, he might have. Just in the nick of
time, you know. He went to Revelation and the civil right thing,
21
you know.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you think his Civil Rights acti vities helped
him continue his popularity at Bethel.
MRS. DURANT: I think so, yes. I would think so.
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did he get along with other pastors around
here?
MRS. DURANT: I don ' t remember. He belonged to the association.
It's been so long.
ANDREW M. MANIS: There is some evidence that he didn't always
get along with others.
MRS . DURANT: Well, I'll tell you what. He's very plain spoken
and sometimes you don't speak everything you think, but he was
that type. And I would not be surprised -- I would not be
surprised if he didn't get along with some people. See, you
can't say everything that comes to you. You just can't say
everything -- that's a bad policy . A lot of times you think but
you don't speak and then sometimes
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you -- what about your pastors since
Shuttlesworth?
MRS. DURANT: We had Reverend Provitt after Reverend
Shuttlesworth . Stayed about eight or nine years and we dismissed
him. You see , in this day and time you can't do to your folks
what you say the white folks do to them all the time. You fight
to free your folks. You come back to your fo l ks and treat them
the same way you say the white folks treat you. That's not gonna
work now. That's a problem. That ' s a problem now. Everywhere.
22
In a lot of Black churches. That's a problem . You put all your
strength and money and everythi ng else you ' ve got to fight t he
white man from dogging and putting handcuffs on your folks and
kicki ng them around and all like that. Then you come right back
to the church and do the same yourself.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you mean as a pastor?
MRS. DURANT: As a pastorl You got to ....
ANDREW M. MANI S: Can you give me an example of what you mean by
that?
MRS . DURANT: Well , l et's see now.
ANDREW M. MANIS: I don 't mean specifically .
MRS. DURANT: Well , r i ght here's an example . You don't come back
to your church and say , "Well, I didn't like that piano player .
I dismissed her." Well, what about t he folks that wanted her.
They have a right to express their opinion but they don 't pay
them. They're payi ng you . They're paying everything else I
think they should l east give them the courtesy of expression
what they feel about it. You're one person, not the church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you think that the power of a pastor in a
Bl ack c hurch i s less than it used to be?
MRS . DURANT: No , I think they are t r ying to make it more than it
used to be and there's where the fights comes about -- the
disagreements , I'll put it like that . That's where the
disagreements come from. You see what the Black preacher has got
t o remember, most of them, not al l of them, are powerful hungry.
And that's not gonna work in this Bl ack church now. The Black
23
preacher told us that the white folks are mistreating us,
treating us like we were slaves, we couldn't stand up for
ourselves, we had to accept it and scared to open your mouth.
That's what they tell us but they come right along and want to do
the same thing.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So the Black church is more democratic now?
MRS. DURANT: That's right. We're all the church. Let's get
together. If the preacher says "Well, I don't like that
musician." Well, you're just one person. What about the 500
people that like her? Are you bigger than 500 folk? Now that's
a lot of your Black preachers' troubles today. And that same
preacher will go in these conventions, these national meetings
where I'm getting ready to go right now -- to Houston, Texas,
and that president in that convention there, get up there and
when someone ask a question. "Ain't got time for that, move on to
something else." They won't open their mouth. They come right
back home and want to be this and that in the church. That's not
going to work. That's not going to work. Scared to open their
mouth in that convention when that president tells them to sit
down.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Let me back up to something else. You said
that none of your pastors before Reverend Shuttlesworth talked
about segregation.
MRS. DURANT: No, as I remember.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember the first time in church a
preacher said we need to fight segregation or something like
24
that?
MRS. DURANT: No. I don't. I don't remember.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you find that the church was receptive to
that sort of preaching when Reverend Shuttlesworth began to do
it?
MRS . DURANT: Preaching about segregation?
ANDREW M. MANIS: Yes.
MRS. DURANT: Yes . Oh, yes, yes. Anybody wants to better thei r
condition -- that ' s what they had in mind -- bettering our
conditions .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did he preach a lot about it? 11m t a lking
about Sunday mo rning worship.
MRS. DURANT: He didn't t ake his text off of segregati on . If
there was time he might put it in, but he didn ' t just take hi s
text off segregation.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Whatever text he used .
MRS . DURANT: He put that in but he didn ' t just ge t up there and
preach on segregation .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did he ever do that -- devot e a whole sermon to
segregati on .
MRS . DURANT: I c an 't remembe r that.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So when he began to preach about segr egation
and fighting segregation and becoming involved in the Movement ,
the church was pretty much supportive of that?
MRS. DURANT: Yes, they were supportive . They were supportive .
Again, they saw where they could better their condition , their
25
lives , their living and everything. But they were supportive.
Thought it was worthwhil e . Thought it was something important
that they should be a part of because, you know, that was going
to help us better our conditions.
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did the church and how did you personally
see that message of fighting segregation? Did you see it as sort
of being connected with what you understand as the Gospel? When
he started talking about that did something click in your mi nd
and say "Well , he l s not preaching the Gospel any more " or "Yes ,
he l s preaching the Gospel. "
MRS. DURANT: I saw it in the light of preaching the Gospel
because the Bible says "Do unto others as you would have them do
unto you. " That l s it and segregation meant, the whole
segregation issue was that others are not treating us like they
would want us to treat them. They treat us differently.
ANDREW M. MANIS : What do you remember as a member of Bethel
Baptist Church or any remembrances you have about say 1961, just
to refresh your memory -- Mother ' s Day 1961 , freedom riders on
two Greyhound buses from Atlanta. One got stopped in Gadsden and
basi cal ly the people were beaten up and the bus was burned and
the other mob met the other bus at the bus station in Birmingham.
Reverend Shuttlesworth was very much involved. Do you remember
anything about that?
MRS. DURANT: I don ' t remember anything . It was just a terrible
thing. It was a sad s i tuation and it was just upheaval and I
remember the excitement in the city. Thatls all I can remember.
26
Excitement in the City of Birmingham.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember any particular mass meetings?
MRS. DURANT: I don't remember them but I'm sure they had them.
I'm sure they did. I just can't pinpoint them to say yes I
remember them. But I'm sure they had them.
ANDREW M. MANIS: There's some of the freedom riders -- most of
them were young people college age or young adult types and an
interracial group of freedom riders. Many of them, for example,
on that night as I have discovered, came to Reverend
Shuttlesworth's house for a quick meal or something. Did you
know anything about or anybody in the church perhaps give a meal
to some of these people?
MRS. DURANT: I don't remember.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What about the big blowup. What are your
memories of 1963 when Dr. King and The Southern Christian
Leadership Conference came to Birmingham? What are your memories
of that period? The fire hoses and the dogs?
MRS. DURANT: I just remember it was a terrible thing. That's
all. I saw it all on tv and on the air. It was just a terrible
thing. That's all I remember. I can't pinpoint it but I just
remember it was a terrible thing that upset the city. You know
what I mean. And I think we always said that Bull Connor's
password -- something about they would never integrate here
unless it was over his dead body. They integrated. It's just
like he knew what he was talking about. It was over his dead
body. 'Cause he sure is dead. They said that all the time.
27
That ' s a password . He knew what he was talking about. The Lord
must have told him what to say. He didn 't lie.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did you see Fred Shuttl esworth as bei ng sort of
a real counterpart to Bu l l Connor?
MRS. DURANT : He was not afraid of him. That ' s one thing about
him . As I said, he was determined and he proved and he showed
the people that he was not afraid . You say, take a chance , and
he woul d a chance if it took taking a c hance . He would stand up
to it. As I say , the Lord had to be on his side . He was in many
situations where ordinarily he would have been a dead man but he
stood his ground. And that is the kind of man we had to have .
That is how we got started . He was the man for the hour .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Well, Mrs. Durant , I appreciate your talking
today and
MRS . DURANT: Like I say, it ' s been so long.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Wel l I appreciate your trying to do -- you said
some very important things that I will be able to use. Let me
just ask you another question. This is sort of question of
what do you think - - if you wanted to say one thing about
Reverend Shuttlesworth that you wanted to be sure got into a
book , what would you say?
MRS. DURANT : I would say Reverend Shuttlesworth was a great man.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Why was he great?
MRS. DURANT: Because he was instrumental in accomplishing things
for the Black folks that had never been accomplished and were
long overdue.
28
ANDREW M. MANIS: Again , I appreciate your.
MRS. DURANT: I wanted to do what I could.
30

Click tabs to swap between content that is broken into logical sections.

This material may be protected under Title 17 of the U. S. Copyright Law which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research.

Holding.Institution

Birmingham Public Library (Alabama)

Full Text

This is an interview with Mrs . Vivian Durant. We will be talking
about her knowledge of her former pastor, Reverend Fred
Shuttlesworth.
30, 1987 .1
[The interview was conducted at her home on July
ANDREW M. MANIS: Mrs. Durant, when did you become a member of
Bethel Bapti st Church?
MRS. DURANT: Bethel Baptist Church is the only church I have
ever known . I was a member from a baby -- ten or eleven years
old . It is the only church I have ever known i n my life.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So you have lived in Birmingham .•••
MRS . DURANT: Continuously. Continuously - not in and out.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were your parents members?
MRS . DURANT: Yes indeed. My father was a trustee . My mother
had been president -- very my entire family was very very
active in Bethel until their dea th .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Can you tell me, if you were goi ng to tell me
about your church , what woul d you tell me?
MRS. DURANT: I would just tel l you I love t he very ground Bethe l
sits on. That ' s al l I can tel l you . I love it. I love it. I
l ove it. That's all I know. I was born and reared in the church
and the church was Bethel Baptist Church. That i s all I know
about churches.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me about some of your pastors other than
Reverend Shuttlesworth .
MRS . DURANT: Well, the first pastor I remember when I joined the
church was Reverend M. Sears. That was a long time ago. He was
1
a very very dedi cated pastor. At that time we d i dn 't have money .
You couldn ' t pay pastors fabulous salaries like you are paying
them now. I don't know. God had to be with that man because he
lived off nothing . As a child I remember that and my parents
used to try to double up to get food for his five chil dren. Many
times on Sunday nights as I remember, they would take up the
money they had counted , they d i dn ' t have enough money to give
Reverend Sears a penny . He said , "Take this $ 15.00 you raised
today and pay it on the church. Or pay it on the lights or pay
i t somewhere. " That man left the church many nights with nothing
in his pockets . I remember my mother , I was a little girl, i n
those days we would carry past ors a bil l of groceries . They
called it "storming the pastor." They woul d go from house to
house and get pounds of rice, pounds of sugar , you give a pound
of lar d or pound of whatever and they would get these groceries
together and at night , as a little girl I remember very well,
they would go up on the pastor ' s porch s i ng i ng a hymn. The
pastor and h i s family would run out and see what was happening.
And there they were with a bill of groceries , for which he was
grateful. I don't see how they made it. Only God made a way for
them.
ANDREW M. MANIS : This Reverend Sears
MRS. DURANT: Reverend M. Sears.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Are there any other pastors that stand out in
your memory before Reverend Shuttlessworth?
MRS. DURANT : We ll, let me see. Reverend Lasseter did a nice
2
job. We paid the church mortgage off during his pastorate.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were your parents charter members of the
church?
MRS. DURANT: Not charter members, but long time old members.
Not quite charter.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you know when the church was founded?
MRS. DURANT: I am not sure about that myself .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were there any other pastors that stand out in
your memory?
MRS. DURANT: When you say "stand out" what do you mean? You're
leading up to Reverend Shuttlesworth?
ANDREW M. MANIS: Just stand out in your memory?
MRS. DURANT: All right. Well, really they all done something
good but when you say "stand out" that means I've got to pinpoint
some things. They were just normal pastors.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you find any of your earlier pastors at
Bethel talked very much at all, or a lot or a little, in
comparison to Reverend Shuttlesworth, -- talked about fighting
segregation?
MRS. DURANT: No, in those days that question never would come
up. That was foreign to people in those days. The people didn't
even discuss it because they, in other words, in those days Black
people just felt that that was their way of life and they
accepted it and just went on and did the best they could. That
is how I would say.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you personally or did any of the people you
3
grew up with ever wonder why the pastors did not talk about it?
MRS. DURANT: I never heard anybody mention it. I never heard
anybody discuss it from that angle. It just wasn't an issue. It
just wasn't in order then. That is all I can say.
ANDREW M. MANIS: When did you begin to notice that beginning to
change?
MRS. DURANT: Well, I would say it really began to change during
Reverend Shuttleworth's time. Really, because it was at that
time that people's eyes began to open and more Black folks were
being educated and coming to knowledge of what we were supposed
to have like the other folks and as they began to be enlightened
they began to do something about it. And they began to support
those who were beginning to lead out. But in those days it just
was not an issue and nobody really didn't give it a thought.
They just made themselves satisfied. This is all we are going to
ever get and so we'll just accept it and do the best we can.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you ever personally have in your heart or
even express a sense of anger about that?
MRS. DURANT: Well, as the time moved on and the issue became hot
and people's eyes were opened that we were being neglected and
mistreated and not dealt with fairly and honestly, then
naturally, I began to sense that we are not getting what we are
supposed to get. All people were supposed to be created equal.
But in the form of the things you ask me about, nobody never gave
it a thought. We just say, "Well, this is it and so we'll just
take it and do the best we can."
4
ANDREW M. MANIS : Do you personal ly feel like it was Rever end
Shuttlesworth ' s infl uence that l ed you to star t thinking ... .
MRS . DURANT: Well, really as someone said, you know, Reverend
Shuttlesworth, in other words, as I remember , did he sort of pick
it up from Martin Luther King? I don't know . A little bit -- it
began to open his eyes and he picked up on it and went t o work on
it . I'll say it like t hat , and as he began to work on it and go
into it and open the people ' s minds and eyes and the peopl e began
to fall in line.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Let me back up and ask you what do you remember
about Reverend Shuttlesworth coming to Bethel?
MRS. DURANT: I am trying t o think. It seems that Reverend
Shuttlesworth ... a minister I am trying to get my
thoughts .... I don ' t want to say anything that I don ' t know
what I am talking about.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Reverend Martin?
MRS. DURANT: No, it wasn ' t Reverend Martin . It was a man from
Mobile. What was that man ' s name? He had been called to our
church I believe and thi s man was to come to our church and he
could not come . As I remember , vaguely , he sent Reverend
Shuttlesworth . I remember that vaguely that he sent
Shuttlesworth instead to this particular meeting . This minister
was. . . . -- I see it in my mind but I can't quote his name .
Reverend Shuttlesworth came in his stead which I guess we finally
would have to say it could have been the plan of the Lord . You
never know. See you never know what God has in store . We are
5
thinking one way but He says "No, this way ." So that was a
possibility, I don't know.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember anything of how ...• what
kind of first impression did Fred Shuttlesworth make?
MRS. DURANT: Well, I think he was kind of slow as I remember.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Personally?
MRS. DURANT: Well, it was sort of slow.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you mean by slow?
MRS. DURANT: Well, you can judge people's attitudes and
mannerisms. Sometimes you can see more than folks can say, you
know. You can get a little information there . But as I can
remember vaguely , it didn ' t take him long to impress the people
that he was the man for the hour .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember a sense in which you became
convinced that he was and what was it about him that made you
MRS. DURANT: I don ' t think I can pinpoint anything to that
extent . But I do know that as time moved on that it seems like
we got together, you know, the church and the pastor.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me something specifically about how a
pastor is called to your church.
MRS. DURANT: Well, usually a pulpit committee is elected and
this committee , send or accept -- usually when a church is vacant
they call -- preachers start rolling in. You don ' t have to
contact nobody . They start rolling in . Then the committee goes
through these and screens them, you know, then they might say
that we will give two or three an invitation , give them an
6
invit ati on to come and speak to the people. Then you see how
your congregation react . Then, you see , the committee sees what
type of minister t his i s and if he i s able to handle this
congregati on . Then they f i nally come on down and recommended.
And, of course , nothing is fina l unt i l the church votes.
Nothi ngl
ANDREW M. MANI S : How often does Bethel Church not vote in a
candidate that i s recommended? Has that ever happened?
MRS. DURANT: I don ' t thi nk so . As I can remember, I don ' t think
so.
ANDREW M. MANI S: Or d i nari ly i f that happened . . . .
MRS . DURANT: As I remember , that never did happen.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So , slowly Reverend Shuttl esworth begins to
MRS DURANT: Oh yes l Came to h i s own as pastor of that church .
ANDREW M. MAN I S : What did Bethel Church want from a pastor?
What does Bet he l Church expect in a pastor?
MRS. DURANT : Well, I would and Bethel Church would expect a
l eader who i s capabl e of leadi ng . You can ' t l ead from behi nd .
You have to be in front to l ead . Now Bethel Church i s a
historical chur ch in Bi rmi ngham and particul arly -- this i s a
l a r ge Black area . You haven ' t been out here long enough to know,
but t his i s one of the largest Black a r eas in Birmingham. The
man must be prepared and qualified to past or the kind of people
that ' s i n its membership . NOW , for i nstance , our church , i n all
the t i me , as I tol d you a few mi nutes ago , that people began to
7
get educated and began to move higher in fields and all like that
and they became more independent and intellectual and all, so, in
our church a leader would have to be on the ball a little bit
because he is not pastoring a congregation of people who do not
know any better, or just sit and listen. He is pastor of people
who, if he is not careful, could tell him something. You know,
now, for instance, a preacher in a rural church would maybe go
two Sundays a month or just one Sunday a month and people just
come to church. He just preach and go back home. But you see,
you donlt have that kind of church at Bethel. You have people
sitting up in that congregation who have Ph.D. degrees, you got
principals of schools. Mr. Winston is principal of Hayes High
School over here. You have a County Commissioner there. You
have people in there. Bethel has any number of nurses and it is
loaded with teachers. So what I am saying is a man must have
qualifications in order to stand his ground.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Was that true back in the 50s?
MRS. DURANT: Not as true as it is now. As I said before, you
have more educated and qualified people in your congregation now.
You canlt get somebody up there just hollering or saying a word
or two and sit down. You canlt do that now. You get it out and
you got to bring it. Now that is the type of church we have now.
We have always had a segment of intelligent people but not like
we have now.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So it wasnlt quite as well educated in 1953?
MRS. DURANT: Oh no indeed. Not like now. No indeed! No
8
indeed ! We have littl e girl s out t here now 19 and 20 years o l d
with t heir masters . We have i t now. That ' s r i ght! Which means
a minister can ' t just get up and sit down . You can ' t do that
now . You have got to know how to lead . And see , there ' s more I
would think as a minister , maybe I am wrong and if I am wrong , I
wish you would correct me because I do want t o be as near right
as possibl e . It ' s more to a pastorate than getting up on Sunday
mor n i ng , say a few words and then sitting down. To pastor is
a l most an everyday job I would thi nk . To pastor now .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you t hink that involves?
MRS . DURANT: We ll , you have got t o have a program to keep the
people busy . There are a l l ki nd of mini stry programs and we go
to national meetings in t he Baptist church . And every t ime they
go they bri ng back programs and plans of how to build your
church. How to make it more spiritual and what have you. And
those p r ograms , you have to put them into pract ice , into motion.
In doi ng that, you see , your minis t er ought to be up front wi th
you or whoever brings this in and he l p him put this progr am into
action . So , i ts more t han just corning up to the pulpit on
Sunday. And then all week you wor k and you expect your salary .
See , you expect your salary. And you have a right to get your
sal ary. You know , you have a right to get your salary .
ANDREW M. MANIS : How we l l do you thi nk Reverend Shuttlesworth
f i t the expectations of Bethel Baptist Church?
MRS . DURANT: Well , at that time . ...
ANDREW M. MANIS: Now I am talking about as pastor of the church ,
9
not necessarily as Civil Rights leader?
MRS. DURANT: I know what you mean. I understand. Well, at that
time he filled the bill. He filled the bill. Reverend
Shuttlesworth was an educated man. He was in a position to fill
the bill.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you think his strengths were, his
greatest strengths as a pastor?
MRS DURANT: Well, I will just say he was an all-around man. I
can't think at the moment of anything I can pinpoint in that
length of time, anything I could put my finger on something
easily right quick.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember any particular themes that he
used to preach about a lot?
MRS. DURANT: I wouldn't guess at that?
ANDREW M. MANIS: Why don't you try to guess?
MRS. DURANT: Oh, Lord. Oh, Lord. I don't know. I just remember
seeing him so many times from the pulpit and all like that. But
I don't remember. Somebody else can guess. I don't want to try
because I wouldn't want to misquote anything like that.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Okay, what do you do you remember anything
-- how did the people in the people in the church feel or how did
they express their feelings after the Supreme Court said that
segregation was unconstitutional in 1954?
MRS. DURANT: Well, the people just shouted and praised and just
had a fit. It was just jubilant and overjoyed. Yes indeedl
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you have any particular memories of how you
10
personally felt.
MRS . DURANT: We were just all so happy that I don't know how I
felt. We were just so elated and happy. Just elated and happy.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were there any statements of Reverend
Shuttlesworth around that time that you can recall? Was there
any particular special service or special sermon?
MRS. DURANT: Well, I tell you what, one of the things that will
stick with me for a long long time, was the night our church was
bombed. I can tell you that.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Well, tell me about that.
MRS . DURANT: Well it was during the Christmas holidays. I will
never forget it. It was fre-e-e-e-zing, freezing cold.
Unusually cold in Birmingham. My son and his family were
visiting here from Detroit for Christmas. We heard this big
bombing. It shook our house and many houses in the areas around
it. It knocked pictures off walls onto the floor in the area.
We hollered IIThat ' s our church, that ' s our church.1I We ran to
the front door. We ran into the yard. We could see all that
black smoke just up in the sky like judgement day. Just up in
the sky. Just pouring. That's our church. That ' s our church.
And right there in my dining room --it broke my chandelier
right there in my dining room over that table. The people from
allover were there . They said people were there from Bessemer
and they got word. The word began to spread. Many of them heard
it. They didn ' t know what it was but they heard it. But the
moment we heard it, knowing the situation, we knew it was our
11
church. We knew it. We went, we went, the people from the area
-- and when the policemen got there they roped it off, of course.
And I remember how a young man told me -- he lived right up the
street. He said, "Mrs. Durant, those police are just talking to
people like dogs." He said, "I am telling you, there like to
have been a race war, because some of those guys were going horne
to get their shotguns. There was almost a war right out here."
If somebody prevailed, said they talked to them and they told
them "That's our church. We are concerned. We want to know what
happened. Did anyone get killed?!! They wouldn't let them corne
inside those ropes. People stayed out there nearly all night.
It was a terrible thing. It was a terrible then when they bombed
our church that night. We knew it was our church when we heard
the bomb.
ANDREW M. MANIS: You are talking about the church and not -­MRS.
DURANT: Both the house and the church. See the church -­the
house was right beside the church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: This was Christmas night?
MRS. DURANT: I don't think it was Christmas night, but it was
during the Christmas season. The Christmas holiday season.
Maybe two or three days after -- during the Christmas holiday
season. That is when it was. That is how I remember it so well,
because my son was here visiting for the holidays when it
happened. That was a terrible night. So the Lord had to be in
it. Had to be on Reverend Shuttlesworth's side. He had to. To
put a bomb under his bed almost. The man didn't even -- you
12
know, there had to be a God somewhere. Had to be! And the man
walked out without a scratch on him. Now you know nobody but God
could do that. And he came out of there and our church was
really in no shape to worship in that Sunday, but everybody was
going to church if it finished falling in on us. And do you
know, that church was that way every Sunday until they got it
finished. But it was a terrible thing. It was a terrible thing
to see someone bomb a church like that. It was terrible. But it
didn't stop Shuttlesworth at all. He became more determined.
Now he was a determined man. That's why he was able to do what
he did. See, a weak-kneed person or somebody scared, they
couldn't do that. But now he went to Phillips High School down
there and they attacked him down there. I think there were some
chains I believe somebody said. But you know, a weak-kneed
person would given up, saying, "You know, my life is in danger."
But the man was determined. He never did get weak. And he went
through a lot of dangerous situations but he never did get weak.
He stayed on the job. It just seemed to have kind of pumped him
up to do more, the more danger he faced. But he was determined
and he was a strong man. Because a weak man would have fallen by
the wayside. He would have fallen by the wayside.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you go over to the church that very night?
MRS. DURANT: Oh, everybody went. Oh, I couldn't have stayed
when the church was bombed. We left. We went by there. The
people were screaming. What they all wanted to know was did
anybody get killed? We knew the church was bombed but we wanted
13
to know did anybody get killed? The people were around the
church all night just about. There was just such an excitement,
frustrating. It was awful. It was awful.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you remember about the founding of the
Alabama Christian Movement?
MRS. DURANT: What do you mean?
ANDREW M. MANIS: The organization that was founded in June of
1956. Was that something he talked about in church services?
MRS. DURANT: Well, I don't know but it would be mentioned along
with other things. He didn't just talk it for a text or anything
like that. It was mentioned in a church service. It was
mentioned in a church service -- all of times.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were there members in the church who thought
that Reverend Shuttlesworth shouldn't have been as active in
fighting segregation as he was?
MRS. DURANT: I don't really think there was. I don't really
think there was. Nobody opposed, as I remember now. I don't
think there was. The people saw that he was determined and it
would make it better for us as Black folks. They seemed to form
in line because he was -- they realized he was not working for
Fred Shuttlesworth. He was working for the Black folk, all of
us, and we would all reap the benefits.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were you a member of the Alabama Christian
Movement?
MRS. DURANT: No, I wasn't. I supported it, but I wasn't -- I
tell you in those days there were a lot of people in certain jobs
14
-- you know a lot of people lost their jobs because of that. You
know that don't you? In certain jobs, they would support it but
they never would come out and, you know, show their face and
whatever, but they would support it. So I never did really
attend it. I was in the Birmingham Public School System. No, I
wasn't not at that time. I take that back. I hadn't started.
But anyway, I supported it but I was never active.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What was your occupation at the time?
MRS. DURANT: At that particular time I wasn't working. I was
getting ahead of myself. At that particular time, no. I wasn't
working at that particular time.
ANDREW M. MANIS: You didn't have to be a member of the
organization to attend mass meetings?
MRS. DURANT: No.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you attend mass meetings?
MRS. DURANT: No, I didn't.
ANDREW M. MANIS: For the reason that you just mentioned?
MRS. DURANT: No, I just never did go. That's all. I just never
did go.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Were there persons in your family who were
actively involved in the organization?
MRS. DURANT: No.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Are there any other times that stand out in
your mind about the time Reverend Shuttlesworth spent here?
MRS. DURANT: No, nothing particular, I guess the Civil Rights
overshadowed everything -- Civil Rights activities and
15
participation. That just overshadowed everything.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What were the church members' feelings about
when Reverend Shuttlesworth was attacked at Phillips High School .
MRS. DURANT: Well, everybody was upset. Everybody was mad about
it and upset. Everybody!
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell me about Mrs. Shuttlesworth:
MRS . DURANT: Well, she was a good pastor ' s - - you know all
ladies marri ed to pastors or preachers are not cut out for that.
I don't know whether you know that or not but that is true. She
was a good pastor ' s wife. She was.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Now I am going to ask you again . What did you
expect from a pastor ' s wife?
MRS. DURANT: Oh, all right. A pastor ' s wife should show concern
for t he church , the success , the progress of the church and its
pastor . A pastor ' s wife can help her husband, and she can hurt
her husband . I have been around a pretty good while and I have
seen a lot of preachers . I do a lot of traveling because I do
convention work . I think I was telling you a pastor's wife can
do big things because she stands by her husband. She supports
him . You know, a pastor should not inaugurate a program in a
church and his wife be at home. She should be there taking an
active part. They are a booster for him , the program, get the
program over. She must take -- a pastor's wife who shows concern
will do that . If she doesn ' t show concern, she is not going to
do that. A pastor ' s wife can help her husband or hurt her
husband. I know that from my experience and through the years in
16
my dealing with Baptist work. Mrs. Shuttlesworth was a good
pastor ' s wife. She really was. She was very active in different
things in the church servi ce and in everything . His children
were happy .
ANDREW M. MANIS : What impressed you the most about his wife?
MRS. DURANT: Well, she was friendly . Very very friendly. Very
cultured. She was down to earth and she was a good mixer with
the members . She didn't rush home to keep from fellowshipping .
She would stay around . See, a lot of preachers' wives -- they -­I
know. I been around a good while -- there are pastor ' s wives
that rush out the church to keep from -- nobody done anything to
them but their attitudes are not right attitudes for pastor ' s
wives. That's what I'm trying to tell you. I know a pastor, one
of my family members -- a member of the church -- when she goes
to church on Sunday she makes it her business to l eave before
she sits on the back seat now that's another bad thing for a
pastor ' s wife -- she sits on the back seat and leaves after
church , just before benediction , rush and get in her car to get
away to keep from speaking to peopl e . I know what I'm talking
about . So she can hurt her husband more than she can help him.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So you t hink Mrs. Shuttl esworth he l ped?
MRS . DURANT: I would think so , yes.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What about her activities which you would call
Civil Ri ghts activi ties?
MRS . DURANT: She was right with her husband. Far as I know, she
was with her husband.
17
ANDREW M. MANIS: So essentially the role is basically geared to
be supportive of the husband?
MRS . DURANT: That ' s right. Then there ' s hardly nothing to keep
him from succeeding . A good pastor's wife is one of the best
assets that he can have . And she can be one of the worst
liabilities he can have if she is not supportive of her husband .
ANDREW M. MANIS: I remember reading about Reverend
Shuttlesworth ' s daughter and son being arrested in Gadsden at
some point in the 60s . Do you have any recollection?
MRS . DURANT: No , I don't .
ANDREW M. MANIS: What -- I suppose I want to ask you what was
the most important accomplishment in your opinion for Bethel
Baptist Church during the Shuttlesworth period?
MRS. DURANT: With the Civil Rights overshadow, I just really
cannot remember . The only thing that pops into my mind is Civil
Rights. I really can ' t pinpoint, and I dare not try if I don ' t
know what I'm talking about.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Anything in general that stands out in your
mind and maybe a particular event that stands out in your mi nd
about Reverend Shuttlesworth?
MRS. DURANT: Not compared to what I've said. It ' s been so long.
Civil Rights just has it all wrapped up.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What about when Reverend Shuttlesworth left?
MRS. DURANT: We were a little disappointed for this reason . He
had been going to Cincinnati pretty regular , and the people got
suspicious. It was the understanding the church , and I wasn't
18
there when it happened but I couldn't go to court and yes he did.
People said throughout the membership he accepted this church in
Cincinnati without telling us. He was pastor of two churches at
one time and we didn't know it. And that was disappointing.
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did they respond when they discovered that?
MRS. DURANT: Well, they just talked among themselves how they
thought they were treated wrong. They said he should have just
accepted the church in Cincinnati and went on and not tied our
hands and let us still think he was our pastor.
ANDREW M. MANIS: I'm interested in how lay people who were
members of his church, how did he separate his role as pastor of
Bethel Baptist Church?
MRS. DURANT: Well, he didn't separate it. We were in the dark
as far as him telling us what was going on. That's why people
were disappointed in that particular incident.
ANDREW M. MANIS: I'm not talking necessarily about his going to
Cincinnati.
MRS. DURANT: What do you mean?
ANDREW M. MANIS: What I am asking is, for example, was there any
sense that, any grumbling, for example?
MRS. DURANT: Spending too much time?
ANDREW M. MANIS: Too much time with this Civil Rights and doing
his job as pastor?
MRS. DURANT: I see what you mean. Yes, there came a time, yes,
when the church felt it was being neglected.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Was that a strong feeling?
19
MRS. DURANT: Well, it was just talk about it among members
themselves. Just talk among themselves .
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did you personally feel about it?
MRS . DURANT: Well, personally I would think that I would
never say "yes" that a church should be neglected . I would never
say that .
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did you personally feel about how Reverend
Shuttlesworth was balancing his responsibilities as a pastor?
MRS. DURANT: He took his time on Civil Rights . He spent most of
his precious time on Civil Rights. The people accepted it , but ,
you know , they ....
ANDREW M. MANIS: Overall , were you happy with that arrangement?
MRS . DURANT: No , I wasn ' t. I love that church down there . The
Civil Rights work was wonderful. Don't misunderstand me.
Because I think the Black man , whatever he deserves , he should
get . He should have . I think if that's what it takes to do it
then good . But I love that corner down there (Bethel Baptist
Church] too . That ' s my first love . That ' s all I know.
ANDREW M. MANIS: But this grumbling, did it ever get strong
enough to
MRS. DURANT: Oh , no , no , no!
ANDREW M. MANIS: So there would not really have been any major
disappointment until the thing with Cincinnati?
MRS. DURANT: Yeah , that ' s right. Anything, yeah , that's major.
We were so disappointed. We thought he was just going up there,
you know , just visiting, somebody inviting him. But you know he
20
was pastoring two churches? He pastored Revelation Baptist two
Sundays and Bethel two Sundays in Birmingham and we didn't know
anything about it.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Is Revelation Church the same church as Greater
New Life?
MRS. DURANT: No, no, no, no. They dismissed him from
Revelation. Revelation is the church he left Bethel for.
No, no. This is another church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So what happened with -- do you know what
happened with Revelation?
MRS. DURANT: Misunderstanding. They couldn't get together. I
don't know what it was, I never heard exactly what it was. I
don't know whether he was on the go so much. I don't know what
it was. But they did have a falling out. I do know that.
Because I was in Cincinnati at a meeting a couple years ago. I
had a cousin there and she was telling me they had a big falling
out.
ANDREW M. MANIS: He had a falling out with the church he had
prior to Bethel?
MRS. DURANT: Maybe so.
ANDREW M. MANIS: He had a falling out in his church prior to
Bethel and after Bethel. Why do you think he did not have one at
Bethel?
MRS. DURANT: Well, he was so busy. If something had not have
come to a head when it did, he might have. Just in the nick of
time, you know. He went to Revelation and the civil right thing,
21
you know.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you think his Civil Rights acti vities helped
him continue his popularity at Bethel.
MRS. DURANT: I think so, yes. I would think so.
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did he get along with other pastors around
here?
MRS. DURANT: I don ' t remember. He belonged to the association.
It's been so long.
ANDREW M. MANIS: There is some evidence that he didn't always
get along with others.
MRS . DURANT: Well, I'll tell you what. He's very plain spoken
and sometimes you don't speak everything you think, but he was
that type. And I would not be surprised -- I would not be
surprised if he didn't get along with some people. See, you
can't say everything that comes to you. You just can't say
everything -- that's a bad policy . A lot of times you think but
you don't speak and then sometimes
ANDREW M. MANIS: What do you -- what about your pastors since
Shuttlesworth?
MRS. DURANT: We had Reverend Provitt after Reverend
Shuttlesworth . Stayed about eight or nine years and we dismissed
him. You see , in this day and time you can't do to your folks
what you say the white folks do to them all the time. You fight
to free your folks. You come back to your fo l ks and treat them
the same way you say the white folks treat you. That's not gonna
work now. That's a problem. That ' s a problem now. Everywhere.
22
In a lot of Black churches. That's a problem . You put all your
strength and money and everythi ng else you ' ve got to fight t he
white man from dogging and putting handcuffs on your folks and
kicki ng them around and all like that. Then you come right back
to the church and do the same yourself.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you mean as a pastor?
MRS. DURANT: As a pastorl You got to ....
ANDREW M. MANI S: Can you give me an example of what you mean by
that?
MRS . DURANT: Well , l et's see now.
ANDREW M. MANIS: I don 't mean specifically .
MRS. DURANT: Well , r i ght here's an example . You don't come back
to your church and say , "Well, I didn't like that piano player .
I dismissed her." Well, what about t he folks that wanted her.
They have a right to express their opinion but they don 't pay
them. They're payi ng you . They're paying everything else I
think they should l east give them the courtesy of expression
what they feel about it. You're one person, not the church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you think that the power of a pastor in a
Bl ack c hurch i s less than it used to be?
MRS . DURANT: No , I think they are t r ying to make it more than it
used to be and there's where the fights comes about -- the
disagreements , I'll put it like that . That's where the
disagreements come from. You see what the Black preacher has got
t o remember, most of them, not al l of them, are powerful hungry.
And that's not gonna work in this Bl ack church now. The Black
23
preacher told us that the white folks are mistreating us,
treating us like we were slaves, we couldn't stand up for
ourselves, we had to accept it and scared to open your mouth.
That's what they tell us but they come right along and want to do
the same thing.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So the Black church is more democratic now?
MRS. DURANT: That's right. We're all the church. Let's get
together. If the preacher says "Well, I don't like that
musician." Well, you're just one person. What about the 500
people that like her? Are you bigger than 500 folk? Now that's
a lot of your Black preachers' troubles today. And that same
preacher will go in these conventions, these national meetings
where I'm getting ready to go right now -- to Houston, Texas,
and that president in that convention there, get up there and
when someone ask a question. "Ain't got time for that, move on to
something else." They won't open their mouth. They come right
back home and want to be this and that in the church. That's not
going to work. That's not going to work. Scared to open their
mouth in that convention when that president tells them to sit
down.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Let me back up to something else. You said
that none of your pastors before Reverend Shuttlesworth talked
about segregation.
MRS. DURANT: No, as I remember.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember the first time in church a
preacher said we need to fight segregation or something like
24
that?
MRS. DURANT: No. I don't. I don't remember.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did you find that the church was receptive to
that sort of preaching when Reverend Shuttlesworth began to do
it?
MRS . DURANT: Preaching about segregation?
ANDREW M. MANIS: Yes.
MRS. DURANT: Yes . Oh, yes, yes. Anybody wants to better thei r
condition -- that ' s what they had in mind -- bettering our
conditions .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did he preach a lot about it? 11m t a lking
about Sunday mo rning worship.
MRS. DURANT: He didn't t ake his text off of segregati on . If
there was time he might put it in, but he didn ' t just take hi s
text off segregation.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Whatever text he used .
MRS . DURANT: He put that in but he didn ' t just ge t up there and
preach on segregation .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Did he ever do that -- devot e a whole sermon to
segregati on .
MRS . DURANT: I c an 't remembe r that.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So when he began to preach about segr egation
and fighting segregation and becoming involved in the Movement ,
the church was pretty much supportive of that?
MRS. DURANT: Yes, they were supportive . They were supportive .
Again, they saw where they could better their condition , their
25
lives , their living and everything. But they were supportive.
Thought it was worthwhil e . Thought it was something important
that they should be a part of because, you know, that was going
to help us better our conditions.
ANDREW M. MANIS: How did the church and how did you personally
see that message of fighting segregation? Did you see it as sort
of being connected with what you understand as the Gospel? When
he started talking about that did something click in your mi nd
and say "Well , he l s not preaching the Gospel any more " or "Yes ,
he l s preaching the Gospel. "
MRS. DURANT: I saw it in the light of preaching the Gospel
because the Bible says "Do unto others as you would have them do
unto you. " That l s it and segregation meant, the whole
segregation issue was that others are not treating us like they
would want us to treat them. They treat us differently.
ANDREW M. MANIS : What do you remember as a member of Bethel
Baptist Church or any remembrances you have about say 1961, just
to refresh your memory -- Mother ' s Day 1961 , freedom riders on
two Greyhound buses from Atlanta. One got stopped in Gadsden and
basi cal ly the people were beaten up and the bus was burned and
the other mob met the other bus at the bus station in Birmingham.
Reverend Shuttlesworth was very much involved. Do you remember
anything about that?
MRS. DURANT: I don ' t remember anything . It was just a terrible
thing. It was a sad s i tuation and it was just upheaval and I
remember the excitement in the city. Thatls all I can remember.
26
Excitement in the City of Birmingham.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Do you remember any particular mass meetings?
MRS. DURANT: I don't remember them but I'm sure they had them.
I'm sure they did. I just can't pinpoint them to say yes I
remember them. But I'm sure they had them.
ANDREW M. MANIS: There's some of the freedom riders -- most of
them were young people college age or young adult types and an
interracial group of freedom riders. Many of them, for example,
on that night as I have discovered, came to Reverend
Shuttlesworth's house for a quick meal or something. Did you
know anything about or anybody in the church perhaps give a meal
to some of these people?
MRS. DURANT: I don't remember.
ANDREW M. MANIS: What about the big blowup. What are your
memories of 1963 when Dr. King and The Southern Christian
Leadership Conference came to Birmingham? What are your memories
of that period? The fire hoses and the dogs?
MRS. DURANT: I just remember it was a terrible thing. That's
all. I saw it all on tv and on the air. It was just a terrible
thing. That's all I remember. I can't pinpoint it but I just
remember it was a terrible thing that upset the city. You know
what I mean. And I think we always said that Bull Connor's
password -- something about they would never integrate here
unless it was over his dead body. They integrated. It's just
like he knew what he was talking about. It was over his dead
body. 'Cause he sure is dead. They said that all the time.
27
That ' s a password . He knew what he was talking about. The Lord
must have told him what to say. He didn 't lie.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Did you see Fred Shuttl esworth as bei ng sort of
a real counterpart to Bu l l Connor?
MRS. DURANT : He was not afraid of him. That ' s one thing about
him . As I said, he was determined and he proved and he showed
the people that he was not afraid . You say, take a chance , and
he woul d a chance if it took taking a c hance . He would stand up
to it. As I say , the Lord had to be on his side . He was in many
situations where ordinarily he would have been a dead man but he
stood his ground. And that is the kind of man we had to have .
That is how we got started . He was the man for the hour .
ANDREW M. MANIS: Well, Mrs. Durant , I appreciate your talking
today and
MRS . DURANT: Like I say, it ' s been so long.
ANDREW M. MANIS : Wel l I appreciate your trying to do -- you said
some very important things that I will be able to use. Let me
just ask you another question. This is sort of question of
what do you think - - if you wanted to say one thing about
Reverend Shuttlesworth that you wanted to be sure got into a
book , what would you say?
MRS. DURANT : I would say Reverend Shuttlesworth was a great man.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Why was he great?
MRS. DURANT: Because he was instrumental in accomplishing things
for the Black folks that had never been accomplished and were
long overdue.
28
ANDREW M. MANIS: Again , I appreciate your.
MRS. DURANT: I wanted to do what I could.
30