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Hi Ellis
You hit that delete button and I'll kill you!! Bad enough it takes you so long after you announced it. You should run for office.
I told you -you were going to have so much *fun* delving into DR and Aikido and to wear high boots and take a shower after. Are you twitchy yet and just sick to your stomach? Wonder why I left?

As I said I have no iron in the fire as to everyone's personalities. Conclusions of biographers are notoriously subjective, and their writings often reflect that. Hence the term "their treatment" of such and such was_____________.
Everyone likes to paint a picture as they see it, including the interviews of someones son long after the father is dead. Having years of opinions of my own father- it was quite an eye opener to hear his opinions as expressed to his friends- and later shared with me, during those same years. Life's full of pleasant surprises.
I see these men as very colorful and complex characters. Therefore I shy away from one-dimensional portraits, as I am sure you do as well. I note the tone-"studied for a block of time and were free of him." as implicit of a foregone conclusion of your research, so the book is going to prove interesting I'd bet.Deshi
I count the big 5 as Sagawa, Ueshiba, Kodo, Tokimune and Hisa only in order of the major lines. In terms of relationship I disclude Hisa. Sagawa and Kodo's dads had more time in with Takeda. I think the Menkyo Kaiden was a slap in the face to Ueshiba and nothing more. Even -that- lends credence to Ueshiba's importance to Sokaku.

I take it we now agree on the Osaka dates and you left it at that.
Stop reading this drivel and go finish the damn book. I'd bet the wives of writers get more tired of a project looong before they are!

I'm hoping to put Peter's pages in a binder, and get my hands on your research and opinions you call a book and be able to sit by a warm fire with a gimlet all winter laughing and enjoying the shear volume of work you both put into these two fellas lives! I for one, can't wait.
Hope to see ya soon.

Looking at Teacher - Student relationships within the Japanese context is always interesting. I have personally witnessed the old "nail that sticks out gets pounded down" at work with several teachers...

You have Ueshiba making contacts, setting up teaching relationships of his own and Takeda gets a twist in his knickers about one of his boys getting above himself. So he makes comments about his ability... I have seen precisely the same thing at work in several situations.

You even get that sort of thing outside the Japanese context. Many folks have heard the statement Micheal Ryabko made about only having passed on a third (along these lines) of what he knows to Vladimir Vasiliev. In their case they maintain a close training relationship but the fact remains that Vlad is the organizer, he's the one with the personality to attract many students, he's the one who has done the most to popularize their system. So what happens? The Teacher reminds everyone that he is the source and that this prodigy, no matter how talented, got it all from him and still has work to do...

As for Ueshiba complaining about Takeda... Well, you see the same thing in relationships and between teachers and students and coaches and athletes. One person, who has been quite satisfied with what he has received for years from his relationship with another starts to have his own ideas or sees someone else with whom he would like a relationship. Suddenly, everything is wrong with his partner, teacher, coach. It's how folks make themselves feel less guilty about moving on. I've seen it over and over, even experienced it a few times.

The moment Ueshiba got together with Deguchi and started shaping his thinking about Budo differently, he was doing something he didn't get directly from Takeda, something that was uniquely his own. In my experience with every Japanese teacher I have known, with VERY few exceptions, that would call for some effort on the part of the Teacher to chastise you and put you in your place.

So I don't take too much of this seriously. Takeda was clearly a man of tremendous ability and difficult character. As Ellis pointed only a very few actually stayed connected with him as official deshi over the long haul. Ueshiba was clearly a tremendously talented student who, as a teacher, also had a large number of students go their own way.

I think that it is revealing that Daito Ryu was only recently "rediscovered" (Stan Pranin had a lot to do with that) and that most folks had their exposure to Daito Ryu, usually without knowing it, from one of the other arts which derived from the parent art. I suspect that this had to do with the personalities of the students who left to start their own systems and were perhaps a bit more social, a bit better able to market what they did than Takeda.

It would be hard, I think to overestimate the contribution Takeda made in his lifetime to Japanese martial arts. The number of folks who trained with him and then took off to do great things on their own was huge; far larger than the number of folks who stayed within the fold as Daito Ryu teachers.

In the case of Ueshiba, you can't understand what he did without looking at his Spiritual beliefs and how they changed his thinking about his budo. His technique changed constantly from the 20's until the war. Then he puts the finishing touches on what would become the basic form of Aikido, the foundation, while working with Saito in Iwama. Once you hit the post war years, Aikido as an art takes on a life of its own, apart from the Founder. He continues to teach and train, and by the end of his life looks nothing like what the rest of the folks are doing... His students have become teachers, achieve renown in their own right and then what do you hear? "No one is doing my Aikido"... Sounds like that reminder we spoke about that serves to bring the focus back to the main Teacher when he feels the folks are getting above themselves and need to be put in their places again.

I read these things about Takeda and O-Sensei and, like Ellis, it gets filtered through my own experience and I don't take much at face value. For a bunch of folks who talk about getting rid of ego all the time, the teachers of martial arts have some of the most highly developed and sensitive egos you'll find anywhere. And no where does that show up more than in the teacher students relations.

Hi George
The other very possible explanations for the exit was that the syllabus was vast and some folks got what they wanted or needed and split-no anger, just grattitude.
It's interesting to view entries in his Mokuroku from as far back as 1898 and see yanagi ryu, Yagyu shinen, Yagyu shingen (teachers and students) Soke's of Koryu, Judoka from 1900!, Itto ryu, on and on. So many Koryu, its staggering.
To get into detail will cause dissention, suffice to say there is a body method. Some might have felt once they got that-or thought they got it to whatever degree- they found the pretzel logic jujutsu superflouos.
This is what I mean by subjective viewpoints. The above was my own very personal journey. I could have put up with the personalities -no problem- if I thought there was more I wanted to get. So the teacher /student issue was irrelevent for my case. Therefore making a statement that assigns "exiting" after ten years as doing so -only- due to personalites isn't nearly conclusive. It's just a single aspect of a broader view from a few students perspectives. Others, such as; what you were looking for, what you got, time and distance, lack of funds though you wanted to continue, Takeda traveleing too much, students life choices interfering, etc. deserve just as much merit. Were his students as one-dimensional in their thinking as we could suggest in a post or a book? I hardly think so.

Ueshiba's choices could have encompassed all of the above or a single one. Near as I can tell he never stated why in public. Sokaku, on the other hand left a letter with his feelings addressed.
Stan says Kissomaru had several letters between Ueshiba and Takeda that he would neither discuss nor present. So we are left with speculation based on what little is known.

As for deshi - Who were truly long-term deshi? I can only think of four - Horikawa, father and son, Sagawa, (Tokimune, of course) and Ueshiba. As best as I have read, the others studied intensely for a block of time, and then were free of him. Only these guys, I think, really experienced decades+ of a relationship with Takeda.
If one is content to be a disciple, things are a lot easier. I think the Horikawas had that humility. They had nothing to chafe at because they could accept their lot. Sagawa, I can only speculate, but he, like Inoue Noriaki of shinei-taido, apparently had such "healthy" egos (excuse me EGOS) that they could, I believe, be resilient. (Hisa, Horikawa(s) for examples.

Let me just append to Ellis' remarks a few relevant facts and glosses:

1) FACT: Takeda was illiterate and Horikawa was his scribe. GLOSS: One could go so far as to say that, with regard to record-keeping and business transactions, Takeda depended on Horikawa like a blind man depends on his cane. I've been in enough companies, organizations, and enterprises to see at first hand that the principal -- even the most irascible principal -- rarely subjects the chief accountant and record-keeper to the levels of abuse that other employees routinely suffer. That makes the texture of the relationship between Kodo and Takeda very different from that of the relationship between Takeda and Ueshiba.

2) APPARENT FACT: Sagawa was independently wealthy. GLOSS: Rich people often tolerate eccentricities in their service providers. Similarly, service providers often tolerate eccentriciites in their wealthy patrons, whose EGOS (and bank accounts) are often quite healthy indeed. Again, that makes the texture of the relationship between Sagawa and Takeda very different from that of the relationship between Takeda and Ueshiba.

3) FACT: The Asahi Shimbun provided corporate backing for Hisa's group. GLOSS: Hisa's relationship with Ueshiba, and later, Takeda, was based on OPM -- Other People's Money. Hisa -- not Ueshiba -- was ultimately the gate that stood between Takeda and the Asahi Shimbun's money. Without Ueshiba's services as a buffer or a cut-out, Takeda had two choices: 1) be nice to Hisa or 2) be broke, but for what Sagawa and Horikawa brought in. The choice he made is obvious.

4) Much has been made of Takeda's connections among judges, police, and military circles, with an attendant suggestion that these connections somehow prove that he was a man of good character. To this, one can only say that for every Thurgood Marshall there's a Clarence Thomas, for every Bill Bratton there's a Bernie Kerik, and for every Eric Shinseki there's a William Boykin. The notion that those connections prove anything about Takeda's character is, in a word, silly.

Let me just append to Ellis' remarks a few relevant facts and glosses:

3) FACT: The Asahi Shimbun provided corporate backing for Hisa's group. GLOSS: Hisa's relationship with Ueshiba, and later, Takeda, was based on OPM -- Other People's Money. Hisa -- not Ueshiba -- was ultimately the gate that stood between Takeda and the Asahi Shimbun's money. Without Ueshiba's services as a buffer or a cut-out, Takeda had two choices: 1) be nice to Hisa or 2) be broke, but for what Sagawa and Horikawa brought in. The choice he made is obvious.

4) Much has been made of Takeda's connections among judges, police, and military circles, with an attendant suggestion that these connections somehow prove that he was a man of good character. To this, one can only say that for every Thurgood Marshall there's a Clarence Thomas, for every Bill Bratton there's a Bernie Kerik, and for every Eric Shinseki there's a William Boykin. The notion that those connections prove anything about Takeda's character is, in a word, silly.

Random musings, take 'em for what they're worth.

Best,

FL

Hi Fred no problem with 1 or 2
3 and 4 are as presumptious to imply yet again...a nagative.
To assume Takeda was broke unless he formed that relatonship expresses a knowledge that you simply do not have. His eimoroku clearly shows many 10 seminars happening before and during, and we don't know what else he was doing, his land holdings, and houses. Secondly, and once again from Aikidoka- the argument appeals only to lower motives and drives...by choice without offering or noting more positive possibilities. One dimensional character fiction writing makes bad "B" movies-not research.
I am looking for multiple possibilties until one is proven. Most of the time there isn't even the potential for one in things I have seen. The forgone conclusion before you even begin to read is Takeda is a miscrient in all aspects and has the all the nuance and complexity of a black masked thug skulking in the dark who's only motivation is money.
It would be hard to find such one-dimensional characterizations of Adolh Hitler, much less some Budo guy of Takeda's stature.
And why are we not discussin Ueshiba;s lying?
Why?
Why not the possibilty since there is some evidence to support it in the old AJ's including pictures?
Hmm....
Let's just stick to slamming Takeda.
#4
Lets also add a list of modern men of exemplary character who also fit the exmple shall we? As the predominant view is to only slam Takeda. In context, all things being equal, as was the norm, I think he woud have had to comport himself in-keeping with a certain standard of decency. Nothing you have offered would counter that except to suggest a negative without due cause. which seems...silly.
I see no purpose in reaching for a negative that defies the common standard. Except by choice and design - to yet again reach for and maybe fashion a negative conclusion out of thin air.
Most of his life is not known, his behaviour uneventful. What we have are *some* of his outbursts and strong statements, some of his behavious with his son-one son.. We have no knowledge of anything to approach the fullness of the mans life. Opting for either or characterizations; good or bad is premature and presumpitve.
When I see one dimensional views of relationships and people to include teachers and multiple students it smacks of revisionism and aggenda, and questions credibility.
Ellis and Peter have spent a great deal of time researching so it will prove to be an interesting, multi-dimensional view of these complex men and their own relationships. One I hope to see express some fulness of each of their lives.

Hi Fred no problem with 1 or 2
3 and 4 are as presumptious to imply yet again...a nagative.
To assume Takeda was broke unless he formed that relatonship expresses a knowledge that you simply do not have. His eimoroku clearly shows many 10 seminars happening before and during, and we don't know what else he was doing, his land holdings, and houses. Secondly, and once again from Aikidoka- the argument appeals only to lower motives and drives...by choice without offering or noting more positive possibilities.

And why are we not discussin Ueshiba;s lying?
Why?I

Dan, Dan, Dan....

You're such a touchy fellow, even when you graciously set aside two out of four points. Just remember -- whoever uses the Hitler example first loses, per the broad reading of Godwin's Law.

But enough of that. I'll go to the fourth point and circle back to the third.

My argument in the fourth is a simple one: evidence regarding the social (or if you prefer professional) circles from which Takeda's clients and patrons were drawn tells us nothing about the quality of his character. That's not a slam, it's an observation. You can argue with the choices I gave in my examples, but from where I sit, I gave you contemporary examples of a courageous, groundbreaking justice and a disingenuous slug in black robes, a brash but effective police chief and a corrupt, loud-mouthed tool, an honorable general who was pilloried for his honesty and a sectarian bigot who sullies the uniform he wears, the point being that profession and social standing is simply not relevant to discussions of character. In every profession, some of them are good and some of them are bad. Period.

What we're left with after that is a small number of accounts that emphasize Takeda (usually in his later years) as irascible. Aside from the few accounts that Ellis cites as demonstrating his somewhat tender concern for Ueshiba, there isn't much to give evidence of the heart of gold under his grumpy persona. But we've all known crusty old bastards who were really softies underneath it all, so that's a possibility. What we're left with is Rumsfeld's famous "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence." So anything we say on this point is projection of some sort, and there's not much disagreement, except that you've mischaracterized what I said negative toward one side.

That brings us to item three. Perhaps I overstate. But even with a string of seminars, it's always nice to have a base that provides a steady income, in addition to a series of recurring gigs on the road -- especially as one gets older.

Indeed, I think this is one of the roots of the dispute between Takeda and Ueshiba -- they cut a deal that was based on one business model, and Ueshiba had a new business model (which was really an old business model). Takeda taught seminars sponsored by patrons. All short-term events; some of them were recurring, but others may not have been. Ueshiba had, by the time of the Osaka rupture, made a number of long-term financial arrangements with companies and government agencies. How do you cut out the individual student enrollment fee that is supposed to be kicked back to Takeda from a group rate long-term deal? And (to broadly paraphrase George) one might wonder: "Why am I kicking back a rake-off on my group rates to somebody who can't organize a group, or cut a deal with one, or maintain a relationship with one when he manages to cut a deal?" This last issue may have been as much a generational dispute as it was a personal dispute.

As to why we aren't discussing Ueshiba's alleged lying....we aren't discussing it because a) this is an aikido bulletin board, and although Jun allows us very broad leeway (THANKS JUN!) by the traditional standards, there are limits to what can be said without repercussions and b) we would no more discuss that than we would discuss which aiki artists, past or present, spent the seminar fees on hookers, their intoxicant/s of choice, or "games of chance and skill." Besides, none of those vices would -- by themselves-- disqualify anyone as a "man of good character" in aiki circles.

That said, I would welcome the introduction of a "more positive possibility" to explain the Asahi Shimbun incident, since "aging martial artist shows up at student's place of work to pursue dispute about student's alleged lies about money, student leaves the scene precipitously and allows former instructor to take over " isn't really very positive for either of them.

Which is where I have to say that I think we've both spent enough time obsessing on this nonsense to agree that tatemae and honor are real obstacles to actual understanding, simply in the way that they result in huge gaps in our factual knowledge.

Hi Fred
Touchy? I was having fun...gees!
I'll not debate it any longer then. I really don't care that much about it to fight about it or cause contention. Since folks want to write about it I thought it worth pointing out they a) usually do not cover the subject objectively, b) they do not have nearly enough information to support such denigrating characterizations of Takeda, c) all while offering up such lofty accolades of Ueshiba with just as much ignorance of him and the relationship between them.
As far as discussing the truth here? I am very sure Jun would NEVER object to the truth of their relationship being revealed-if it ever could be. In fact I shudder to think of the implications of what you are saying. I would never think that of Jun...or you. Do you think there are still those in aikido who are so low as to lie and bury the truth by intent?

I am quite sure...very sure, that were those letters to have been positive to Ueshiba's actions Kissomaru would have produced them in a hot minute to counter the published letter from Takeda.
The summation of mens lives should not be treated in such a cavalier fashion. I continue to presume more positive things for them both, to include failings, strengths, loves, losses, gains, and with these two guys, incredible skills with a well deserved reputation.
I see no need to lift one, at the expense of the other. I also find it hard to consider one, without the other. They danced a dance together as giants, in an age of giants. It's quite a story isn't it?

My argument in the fourth is a simple one: evidence regarding the social (or if you prefer professional) circles from which Takeda's clients and patrons were drawn tells us nothing about the quality of his character. That's not a slam, it's an observation. You can argue with the choices I gave in my examples, but from where I sit, I gave you contemporary examples of a courageous, groundbreaking justice and a disingenuous slug in black robes, a brash but effective police chief and a corrupt, loud-mouthed tool, an honorable general who was pilloried for his honesty and a sectarian bigot who sullies the uniform he wears, the point being that profession and social standing is simply not relevant to discussions of character. In every profession, some of them are good and some of them are bad. Period.

What we're left with after that is a small number of accounts that emphasize Takeda (usually in his later years) as irascible. Aside from the few accounts that Ellis cites as demonstrating his somewhat tender concern for Ueshiba, there isn't much to give evidence of the heart of gold under his grumpy persona. But we've all known crusty old bastards who were really softies underneath it all, so that's a possibility.

Best,

FL

Hi Fred,
I'll point to articles from Aiki News that show Takeda in more of a positive light. Stans research into Daito ryu and subsequent articles from Takeda's students, his son, and a reporter show Takeda in more of a positive light than negative. And I'm only through rereading up to Issue 67.

I remember an article with a reporter. Takeda seems like a normal, older man who loves to talk and show off. I remember reading an article about Takeda going around to dojos and asking for matches. He didn't storm into dojos at all, but instead followed protocol at the time. Learning to ride a unicycle in a performing show? Doesn't sound like some cruel, grumpy man to me.

Hi Fred,
I'll point to articles from Aiki News that show Takeda in more of a positive light. Stans research into Daito ryu and subsequent articles from Takeda's students, his son, and a reporter show Takeda in more of a positive light than negative. And I'm only through rereading up to Issue 67.

I remember an article with a reporter. Takeda seems like a normal, older man who loves to talk and show off. I remember reading an article about Takeda going around to dojos and asking for matches. He didn't storm into dojos at all, but instead followed protocol at the time. Learning to ride a unicycle in a performing show? Doesn't sound like some cruel, grumpy man to me.

Mark

Mark,

Links to articles (or a compilation of excerpts containing positive characterizations) sounds like a fine idea. It has been years since I read most of that material, and I could certainly use a refresher, particularly in light of the series at hand and Ellis' forthcoming book.

Dan,

You need a gimlet.

Quote:

I see no need to lift one, at the expense of the other. I also find it hard to consider one, without the other. They danced a dance together as giants, in an age of giants. It's quite a story isn't it?

Here I agree wholeheartedly with the first part. But as to the latter, I would rather see them both as deeply flawed mortals, simply because the lotus that rises from the muck is something I can believe in from experience, because the picture is relatively complete, and there's no outsize pristine image to be shattered in the first place.

Links to articles (or a compilation of excerpts containing positive characterizations) sounds like a fine idea. It has been years since I read most of that material, and I could certainly use a refresher, particularly in light of the series at hand and Ellis' forthcoming book.

Yes you could. But then again, some of us have never forgotten.

Quote:

....I would rather see them both as deeply flawed mortals, simply because the lotus that rises from the muck is something I can believe in from experience, because the picture is relatively complete, and there's no outsize pristine image to be shattered in the first place.
Dan,

You need a gimlet.

Best,
FL

Actually I think some of you guys do
Where you'd RATHER see them as deeply flawed mortals rising from the muck that you can relate to-I have a generally much more positive outlook, and don't have a need for that particular dark image.
How about you have my gimlet and cheer up.
I'm naturally upbeat.

I think we should get back to Ueshiba.
I laid out some questions and observations. I didn't want to get side tracked.

Links to articles (or a compilation of excerpts containing positive characterizations) sounds like a fine idea. It has been years since I read most of that material, and I could certainly use a refresher, particularly in light of the series at hand and Ellis' forthcoming book.

FL

Well, that might take a bit of rereading. I'll see if I can point you to some of them, though.

Did you know that Stan Pranin has been giving away a free DVD of all the Aiki News back issues to new subscribers to his website? This is generosity indeed.

I am somewhat stunned to see that you have opened a thread about the back issues of Stan's magazine. I think it should be assumed in this discussion, especially since Dan's post (#10) requesting my sources for Ueshiba's separation from Takeda in 1936, that all participants have carefully & critically read Stan's interviews in the two books he has published in English and also online.

The Aikikai charges 15,000 Japanese yen for the DVD of 500 back issues of the Aikido Shimbun, but I think this is still a small price to pay for the early issues, which contained O Sensei's discourses and much other material. There is much meat there, but you need to dig through all the fat and gristle to find it--and it's all in Japanese.

Did you know that Stan Pranin has been giving away a free DVD of all the Aiki News back issues to new subscribers to his website? This is generosity indeed.

I am somewhat stunned to see that you have opened a thread about the back issues of Stan's magazine. I think it should be assumed in this discussion, especially since Dan's post (#10) requesting my sources for Ueshiba's separation from Takeda in 1936, that all participants have carefully & critically read Stan's interviews in the two books he has published in English and also online.

The Aikikai charges 15,000 Japanese yen for the DVD of 500 back issues of the Aikido Shimbun, but I think this is still a small price to pay for the early issues, which contained O Sensei's discourses and much other material. There is much meat there, but you need to dig through all the fat and gristle to find it--and it's all in Japanese.

Best wishes,

Hello Peter,

Yes, I find that Stan is very generous, too. I've purchased a few things from him and have a list of other items to get when funds become available. The DVD back issue is something I think everyone in Aikido should have and read. Besides the two books, there are other articles/interviews in the back issues full of some very good bits of information.

I opened the thread elsewhere because I didn't want to detract from your article and the discussions about it. So, I tried to err on the side of caution, rather than clutter up the thread with something that could possibly create off topic posts. There is a wealth of information in the back issues, so I thought it could get rather messy.

Having been a decades long supported of Stan I agree. I think a subscription to his site and the purchase of is books on Ueshiba and Takeda should be a requirement for entering the discussion Add the years of AJ's interviews which are not in those books and its quite a body of information.I encourage everyone to take advantage of the resource. That said, there's nothing like a teaser of information with quotes from your own sources of information to fill out a discussion. Such as found here.
By the way I just re-upped my subscription to AJ a few weeks ago and did not get the DVD. I intend to contact Stan!!Thanks Peter

Peter, 15000 yen is a give a way. I have to work on my Japanese....
Have you seen anything in what I wrote that contradicts versions you have heard? Or is there anything more you can think of to fill out, round out the complex relationship in the period being discussed. I didn't want it to get sidetracked too Takeda, I thought to interject where some of Ueshiba's movements and the nature of his reception was made possible BECAUSE of Takeda's prior work and reputation and that it rarely gets covered or mentioned.

Mark
I think the point is not to cut and past entire acticles. Just teasers.
Thanks

Having been a decades long supported of Stan I agree. I think a subscription to his site and the purchase of is books on Ueshiba and Takeda should be a requirement for entering the discussion Add the years of AJ's interviews which are not in those books and its quite a body of information.I encourage everyone to take advantage of the resource. That said, there's nothing like a teaser of information with quotes from your own sources of information to fill out a discussion. Such as found here.
By the way I just re-upped my subscription to AJ a few weeks ago and did not get the DVD. I intend to contact Stan!!Thanks Peter

Peter, 15000 yen is a give a way. I have to work on my Japanese....
Have you seen anything in what I wrote that contradicts versions you have heard? Or is there anything more you can think of to fill out, round out the complex relationship in the period being discussed. I didn't want it to get sidetracked too Takeda, I thought to interject where some of Ueshiba's movements and the nature of his reception was made possible BECAUSE of Takeda's prior work and reputation and that it rarely gets covered or mentioned.

Mark
I think the point is not to cut and past entire acticles. Just teasers.
Thanks

Hello Dan,

The differences are going to be in the nuances and the wording rather than the content.

So far, in my columns, I have regarded Takeda Sokaku Sensei as a foil for Morihei Ueshiba, rather than someone in his own right. I think that this is because I am concened much more with the transmission from Morihei to Kisshomaru and beyond, than the transmission from Takeda to Morihei. I think this issue affects present-day aikidoka more closely. However, I am aware that I have not done justice to Ueshiba's relations with Takeda Sensei.

In my defence, I have to state that I have left this to Ellis, who has researched this relationship much more than I have--and in a different way from Stan's research. When his book finally appears, I think you will find much to discuss.