except for the fact that harry potter books arethe Bible is fantasy. The history and prophecies in the BibleQur'an are proven to be real. and history continued to prove the prophecies to be true.

Fixed that for you.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

Just saying that something's a fact doesn't make it a fact. You have to prove it.

And the point of Lucifer's creative editing was to point out that it's all a matter of perspective. Someone who strongly believes in something will be much more likely reject other conclusions without seriously thinking about them. The fact that you thought he was bashing you proves this.

except for the fact that harry potter books are fantasy. The history and prophecies in the Bible are proven to be real. and history continued to prove the prophecies to be true.

But you never proved them to be real. All you did was list a series of bible verses that said they were real.

This might count as some small measure of proof if the prophecies weren't also in the selfsame bible. However they are. The prophecies which are predicted by the bible, are also fulfilled within the narrative of the bible; so they effectively prove nothing of substance.

If those events were recorded elsewhere, in a separate document that had not come from biblical writings, or could be shown to have occurred via objective evidence, then you could start to make a case for such things having some veracity.

As it stands, using the bible to prove itself has the power to prove nothing. It is simply a logical fallacy.

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

No basis for that statement. it is the fallacy of the Argumentum ex Ano. (Pulled out of the anus.)

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(1) the city of jericho will be rebuilt: 1 in 2. (2) One leader, who will be a man, will rebuild the city: 1 in 10. (3) the leader's oldest son will die at the start: 1 in 100. and (4) the leader's youngest son will die at the finish: 1 in 100. Therefore the total probability for this prophecy is 1 in 200,000.

More invented numbers.

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These values were carefully calculated and justified by a respected group of historians

That's a lie.

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Tyre 7.5 x 10^7 (Ezekiel 26:3-16)

Well, that's what happens when I don't keep up with the evening news. Nebuchadnezzar has finally nuked Tyre. BTW, in 29:18 Ezekiel admitted his prophecy was a failure. He followed it with a prophesy that Nebuchadnezzar would ravage Egypt and the population would be driven out of the land for 40 years before they trickled back to resettle it. That prophesy failed, too.

Given the back and forth warfare in the ancient Middle East it was always a safe bet to prophesy a city would eventually be conquered. If it didn't happen it still might. Let's look at a few facts about the Book of Joshua.

There was a battle at Megiddo about 1450 but it was the Egyptians against the Canaanites -- no Hebrews around at all. It ended with the surrender but not destruction of the city.

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The ancient Egyptian account gives the date of the battle as the 21st day of the first month of the third season, of Year 23 of the reign of Thutmose III. It has been claimed that this was April 16, 1457 BC according to the Middle Chronology, although other publications place the battle in 1482 BC or 1479 BC. The Battle of Megiddo was an Egyptian victory and resulted in a rout of the Canaanite forces, which fled to safety in the city of Megiddo. Their action resulted in the subsequent lengthy Siege of Megiddo. ... The city was besieged for seven months and the King of Kadesh escaped. Tuthmoses set up siege-works and encircled the town, eventually forcing its occupants to surrender. At Karnak it is recorded that the victorious army took home 340 prisoners, 2,041 mares, 191 foals, 6 stallions, 924 chariots, 200 suits of armor, 502 bows, 1,929 cattle, 22,500 sheep, and the royal armor, chariot and tent-poles of the King of Megiddo. The city and citizens were spared.

Conclusions:

Ezekiel was a court sycophant giving prophecies that coddled the king.

The Book of Joshua is a fraud. It was written at least 500 years after the alleged events. I assume there was somebody named Joshua sometime but he didn't conquer a bunch of cities. The book is a propaganda piece. It's the same as when there is a shocking murder some guy in a slum will brag that he's the bad, bad dude that did it. Then people will step back when he swaggers down the sidewalk. Since it gets some details of the rebuilding right, the logical answer is it was written after the rebuilding.

I'm not going into the prophecies of Jesus in detail here. Most all of the alleged fulfillments only happen in Matthew and Matthew is quite, how shall we say, a fabulist[1]

I will note that at the head you said, "All of the prophecies told in the old testament have come true." That's amazing. The Messiah is to be the King of Israel, bring the Jews all back to Israel, enslave the Palestinians and make them like it, and bring world peace.

Again, I forgot to turn on the 6 o'clock news today so I didn't notice that that happened.

i present the facts and you bash. no offense, but i was told that i would be respected if i did that.

You haven't present fact. You have presented that thing in a book predict other things in a book. A book that has been demonstrated false time and time again. From Bats being birds, Pi as three, Rabbits chewing their cud, the slaughter of the innocents, all of Exodus, magical cures for Leprosy, and so forth.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Unfortunately, the author of the S.A.B. mixed science and history together, so you may upset yourself by reading things like the fact that Yahweh invented light before the light-producing stars, or plants before there was a sun to feed them.

You can feel free to ignore the sciencey bits if you like since we're talking history. But this does a pretty good job of ventilating your claim that any biblical history was proven true, let alone *ALL* of it.

Who is it that you think proved this stuff anyway? Please don't tell me the bible. PLEASE don't say it was the bible. You can't let your brain go to goo to the point where you allow a book to make claims about itself and then accept it. That's really, really bad thinking.

i present the facts and you bash. no offense, but i was told that i would be respected if i did that.

kaboose, let me ask you a hypothetical question. If you had a really old book in your possession that talked about a person coming in the future who did a bunch of stuff, and you were a modern writer who was very interested (for whatever reason) in portraying someone you had heard about as that very person, how hard would it be to write about them doing the very things in the book you'd read?

Let me give you an example..

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey,on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Now, the "fulfilling" of this comes in Matthew 21:5 Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

If you were a gospel writer (we have no idea who wrote them, BTW), and you wanted to say that this guy Jesus was the prophesied person who would come in on a colt, and you were writing several decades AFTER the fact, how hard would it have been to simply write it in? Not hard at all. In fact, that is what happened with some of these things.

And what about this one...

Zechariah 13:6. Now, depending on which version of the bible you use, you get wounds in different places. Only in the KJV of the bible do you see the wounds on the hands. In almost every other version, it's different. NIV says "Wounds on your body". ESV says "wounds on your back". NASB says "wounds between your arms". ASV = "wounds between thine arms".

But lets look at the whole passage here. Zechariah 13. Is it really talking about Jesus? Read it over and make your judgement. And remember now, you are using this stuff as PROOF that all of it was real. Is this REALLY talking about Jesus? Pay close attention to the words and see. There's just no way. The last sentence is not prophetic of Jesus' crucifixion.

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“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the LORD Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.

"On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth. If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’

There is no chance that the word "they" in the last sentence is referring to Jesus. It is referring to the prophets who were no longer allowed to be prophesiers anymore. And how does the notion of being given the wounds "at the house of my friends" fit in? Are you going to try and say that this is a metaphorical statement linking back to his betrayal by Judas? As if Judas himself had stabbed him? That's a really, REALLY big stretch if you ask me. Certainly not enough to say it's a direct prophesy from an almighty being.

You see, this is the type of stuff you have to be careful about, kaboose. There are lots of Christians who really WANT to believe these things are prophesies. And while you may say that it is WE who do NOT want to believe in God, please keep in mind that if you were assessing ANY other book, you would likely approach these prophesies with the same degree of skepticism that we use on the bible. If you give the bible some sort of free pass just because you WISH it were true, then you are no longer looking for the truth. You're looking to verify what you think. An atheist goes no harder or softer on ANY religious work. They approach it all the same way. That's why we reject them all. Here... I will give you an example from the Quran...

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"And when the mountains are made to move." (81:4)

This is a Quran quote that supposedly prophesies the notion that we will one day be able to 'move mountains' (with dynamite and such). But is it? If you read the whole passage...

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When the sun is covered, And when the stars darken,And when the mountains are made to pass away,And when the camels are left untended,

... you clearly see that this is not a prophesy about the future ability for humans to move mountains. It is an end times prophesy.

Do you see how that works? You HAVE to use the same level of skepticism for both the bible and every other book. If you don't, you're just not looking for truth.

If we are really seeing a supernatural foretelling of the future, there should be absolutely no doubt about it. You also have to remember that the bible stories have been altered, changed and manipulated throughout the entire period since they were written. So it is not out of the realm of possibility that events that occurred many years later could have made it in.

There are no rock solid prophesies in the bible that could not possibly be explained any other way than with the Goddidit theory. None. Go ahead and look for them. There aren't any. Sorry.

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Just saying that something's a fact doesn't make it a fact. You have to prove it.

And the point of Lucifer's creative editing was to point out that it's all a matter of perspective. Someone who strongly believes in something will be much more likely reject other conclusions without seriously thinking about them. The fact that you thought he was bashing you proves this.

Quoted For Truth.

If I wanted to bash you, I'd do something far worse. I was trying to be subtle about it, but apparently you didn't catch on. What jaimehlers said is 100% correct.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

So, how likely is it that it got a prophecy correct when it did not even accurately describe the events in the first place? How likely is it that the "prophecy" was actually written after it was fulfilled?

I recommend you try this book: Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman

Umm, isn't this presuming that there IS such a thing as an intelligent Christian?

There are plenty of intelligent Christians; all of them are delusional. None can seem to avoid arguments that are composed of

A) Appealing to Ingornace: We cant't explain the universe: therefore GodB) Appealing to Pity: Jesus suffered: therefore GodC) Special Pleading: All those other Gods aren't real, mine is; Therefore GodD) Appealing to Antiquity: Christianity has survived 2000 years; therefore GodE) Appealing to Authority: The Bible say God is real. The Bible is the book of God; Therefore GodF) Circular Reasoning: The Bible is a Fact because is fortells events contained in the bible that are other facts; Therefore GodG) Appeal to Personal Incredulity; 'God did it' is simple to understand; Therefore GodH) Equivocation: The Universe must have had a creator: Therefore the Judeo-Christian GodI) Appealing to Negative Consequences: God will send you to hell for not believing in him; Therefore GodJ)Appeal to Popularity: There are a lot of Christians; therefore God

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

My question is, how can people predict things of that magnitude if there is no God? How do the prophets of God prophecy the future in such specific ways and have them fulfilled? These events are proven to be true and fulfilled, just look it up. History proves the Bible. Math shows the probabilities. Now please think carefully about this statement: With respect to evidence, it takes a far greater leap of faith to not believe in God and the Bible than to have faith in God and to believe what the Bible says.

Kaboose, I see you didn’t take my advice to read the site more before you came back. Do you understand the concept of people writing things that aren’t true? Especially to “confirm” a prophecy many years later? Other religion claim to have their prophecies come true to. Do you believe in all of those? If not why? You have presented no facts, only bad old rehashs from Christian websites, all assumptiosn with no basis in reality.

You also show your ignorance of your own bible and you simply spew stuff you’ve found on other websites. Your supposed “messiah” fails again and again in fulfilling prophecies in the OT, to the point that Christians have had to make up a “second coming” for him to fit them in. That’s why there are whole websites showing how badly Christians lie about the Jewish myths: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

Add this to the fact that there is no archaelogical evidence for the essential claims of the bible, no contemporary mentions of them, etc, it shows your book to be no more “historical” than the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Mahabharata, etc. There might be an occaional mention of a documentable person or place but the story isn’t true, just like a modern political thriller.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Okay, well i do have a few questions. All of the prophecies told in the old testament have come true. There is historical proof of it all. but there were the prophecies written before it all happened. For example look at the prophecy found in Joshua 6:26. It was written about 1451 B.C. ......

Okay, let's start here, with a few questions.

Where does this date come from?Can we be sure that 6:26 was not a later insert into a much older document?This "prophecy" took 500 years to come true. That's a long time.....the longer the period of time, the more chance there is of something happening. How do you differentiate between genuine prophecy and "random guess" fulfilled by time?How do you factor for people striving to fulfil a "prophecy"? Can you be sure that the sons dies naturally, as opposed to (say) murder or poisoning by a zealot who is desperate to make the "prophecies" happen?

You've been researching for several weeks, so I'm sure you have considered all of the above....as opposed to, say, looking only for things that support your argument and not asking awkward questions about the "facts" you uncovered?

okay, well i feel as though i can only post one last time, so this will be a good one because i am going to prove to you that the bible is a viable source therefore proving that all that was written (at least in the historical sense) is true. A lot of you say that you want proof that the bible's prophecies are viable outside of the bible, well i would like to first point out a prophecy written so long ago (we all know that the bible wasn't recently written) and it is being fulfilled today. What is happening in Israel today? Jews from every country are returning to their home land. Does prophecy talk about this? Jeremiah 23:3 states "And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries wither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase" Isaiah 43:5 & 6 state" Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; and I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth";There is no doubt about it. The Jews are returning to their homeland from every corner of the earth. Prophecy is being fulfilled right before our eyes!

Want further proof? In Ezekiel chapter 36, God addresses the Israelites "24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land." The Jews have the best army in the world today, the smartest scientists, and live in a little strip of land that the whole world disputes because the nations of this world are under Satan's control. The nations of the world will bring about their own destruction because God said" And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." Ever since Hitler's slaughter of the Jews, we gave them Jerusalem back for a safe haven for them. There are so many who want Jerusalem, but the nations protect it. I don't see how you can state this any other way besides the bible predicted future events.

Now to all of you who still say the bible cannot be trusted, i would like to ask you if you have ever trusted in an autobiography written about someone who lived many years before us, written about someone you have never personally met or seen in pictures. Autobiographies obviously have some bias because they are written by individuals about themselves. They certainly could misinterpret some of their experiences, but how many readers would toss out an autobiography as not a trustworthy book about the author? So, why toss out portions of scripture that are autobiographical?

Many biographies are written by people who loved the person they are writing about, but we do not question their validity. Yes, we may see some prejudices or favoritism in a biography, but we can overall trust most biographies, because if they were inaccurate there would be an uproar from others. So, why toss out portions of scripture that are biographical? Unless we have proof they are inaccurate, we need to give them the same trust we would a modern day biography.

i know that you want archaeological proof that the bible can be trusted and there are finds in fact that proves that the people and the places did in fact exist in the bible and weren't made up. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html This is a small article talking about some archaeological finds proving some of the events in the bible true. don't let the link fool you, this article is based on real archaeological finds. There are other archaeological finds that talk about Jesus being a real man. I know that you know that these have been found to be true because Jesus is talked about in the Encyclopedia Britannica. http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html This is a page that shows some things written out of the bible that refer to the Jesus mentioned in the bible proving that He existed. but what is interesting is that if Jesus was real (shown by other documents other than the bible) and He did in fact say He was the Son of God, why wouldn't He have been written out of the Bible if He were wrong? The Jews hated Him when they crucified Him. They had witnessed His miracles, but believed Him to be a heretic, which makes it interesting that the entire New Testament is written basically about Him and His works. There are many witnesses and they wrote their stories explaining what they saw. Some say that it can't be trusted because of the religious content in the bible, but if the bible can be shown to be true through archaeological findings and personal notes written by other people saying that those things existed, then why can't we trust it? Historians only discredit biographies and autobiographies when they are proven false by others, but the people and the things in the bible are mentioned in more than just the Bible. so therefore it can't be discredited as at least a historical artifact. But we must also ultimately ask the question, since Jesus existed. Is He God, or was he a liar, or was He a lunatic? http://www.creatingfutures.net/jesus.html this page really explains this very well with some quotes by people about how, with all of the witnessing evidence that archaeologists have found written about Jesus, Jesus couldn't have been a liar or a lunatic. I will let you decide for yourself on that, but i would like to talk about 2 things before i go.

1: the reason why i will not be posting on this site anymore is because i don't feel as though you are looking for any real answers, but you are instead just looking to say other's are wrong and that atheism is right. I'm not saying this by thought, but by how much i have seen of that on this site. Like obviously there are the christians that aren't very christian at all, but i don't think those people should count because they lack wisdom, but with the overwhelming evidence that i have found on the internet explaining so many of your questions in such logical ways, i just don't understand how you could even ask them still. i will provide some links to sites that i found to be very good places to find answers to these questions. but another reason why i'm leaving is because i don't feel as though i could be able to present this stuff in the best way because it is on a forum where so many people just post really stupid crap sometimes (some of the "christians" do too). Like i know that there are those who have a lot of education too and they aren't obnoxious like some, but this isn't the kind of place to seek answers. If you are in a community full of people who will shoot down anything, then how are you going to be able to even consider the things said by christians? i am sure a lot of you aren't like that and do consider them, but if you truely consider them, then i think that you'd find the answer in God. every question asked i have found the answer for. But you see this is where wisdom from God comes in. I honestly did not understand a lot of things in my faith before i started posting on this site, and i have no regrets whatsoever because it has brought me so much closer to God. I have given myself an opportunity to defend and to be honest i feel as though i did a good job, but i just can't do quite the same of a good job as i could in person. i hope you understand that i'm not giving up on any of you. on the contrary. I have been praying for all of you every night ( i know this means probably nothing to you, but honestly my prayers come from every compasionate part of my heart, and you all mean so much to me.) . I just don't think that i am called to keep presenting to you on a forum, but i will keep learning from here and seeing things, and maybe making a post every month or 2. but i just think that personal relationships are the best way to go about this. For all of you who understand christianity in any sort of way, you know that what i'm saying is something that christians believe in. because i have no religion, i have a relationship with God. and i believe that relationships are the best of saying what needs to be said.

Now the 2nd thing is that i am extremely disappointed that even though the bible has been taken as historical fact, you still say it's not true. you work on a basis of evidence. but you see that's not how the world works all of the time. You have no evidence of how the big bang even occured, yet you have faith that the universe is in fact all around us. We have no evidence disproving the bible as any sort of historical fact, so we should have faith that it is true, much like many other things written from long ago. why is the bible any different? The world is built on faith. it has been from the start. We have been advancing in science a lot, but as we go further, there are still questions that we need faith to believe they are true and that this universe isn't fake. I do want to talk about a man talked about in the bible. Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples. He said that He would not believe that Jesus had come back from the dead until he had put his fingers through the holes in His hands and felt the hole in His side from when He was stabbed on the cross. But when Jesus came in, He let him do those things so he could believe. now these fundamental words that, in light of all that has been said, Jesus said are "you believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who believe and have not seen." He is talking directly to all of you. He isn't saying that He will rebuke you, but that your beliefs shouldn't be based on complete evidence, but faith. Atheism is in fact a faith. You trust in your evidence, and whatever might prove what you believe, but in fact you are missing so much evidence, so where is your faith?

I will not preach to you because it is against the rules, but i hope you see all that i have said as maybe thought provoking. i do pray that you will at least go over this with a completely open mind. Go through the sites i will provide at the bottom and try to find the questions that you have asked your whole life in them. If you don't find it, then talk to someone in person about it. a good christian person. someone that you know. because asking about it on a forum will only give you advice from people you don't even know or trust. so what is the good in that? I do love you all and i really don't want you thinking that i'm bailing, because i have given evidence of the bible's validity and Jesus' validity, which is what you've asked for. and please don't respond to this in a quick manor. honestly if you go to your bed or a quiet place and try to pray, even just once, with all of your heart, Just asking God to help you see what He has been trying to show you your entire life (He will answer this prayer), and then answer my post, i will gladly respond to you. but don't go and do this and expect an instant response, because God will work in His own ways at His own time, but He will answer it. I just want you to come to my side for a bit because i have spent so long on your's, and i think that it's rather cowardly not to ever give God a chance. Like how bad can eternal life in heaven with a loving God be? I do not want you, if you know you will, to go into a prayer constantly thinking that He will not answer it or any doubt in your mind. Seriously just have some sense of faith that there must be a god who loves you and knows you more than you do yourself and individually wants a relationship with you. i mean i know you can't pretend to believe, but if you call out to God, He will hear you. He will. I have no doubt in my mind that He will hear all of you and answer you. just don't expect a verbal response. but give that a try after going through these sites and the answers they provide to certain questions. and i will gladly keep in touch with you in any way i can whether that be by email or this site. i must go to bed now though. I will talk to you all later at some point in time hopefully.

PS: if i could talk to each and every one of you personally, i would. i would give up my time in my life to talk to you about this because i believe that your soul is greater than my time.

1: the reason why i will not be posting on this site anymore is because i don't feel as though you are looking for any real answers.......

Kaboose, I could say the same about you. All you seem to have done so far is list some assertions about the alleged "prophecies". Can you answer the questions I posed above? Or are YOU not looking for real answers....just those that support your worldview?

i know that you want archaeological proof that the bible can be trusted and there are finds in fact that proves that the people and the places did in fact exist in the bible and weren't made up....

Like Nazareth, for example? But seriously - showing that some of the people and places in the Bible were real is quite irrelevant. Read the Richard Sharpe novels, the MAcro & Cato books....read James Bond, read Harry Potter, read damn near any book you like set in this world, and you'll see reference after reference to people, places, and events that really existed. But does that mean that Sharpe, Bond, Potter, Sherlock Holmes, the Psammead, Karlsson on the Roof all really existed too?

That the Bible features some real places and real historical characters is by no means "proof" that any of its important claims are true...not even if important dates and events were NOT significantly out where it matters most. What is important in the Bible is whether its claims about Yahweh and Jesus are correct.....and noting that "Pilate existed, and Jesusalem is a real place" does NOT address those claims in the slightest.

okay, well i feel as though i can only post one last time, so this will be a good one because i am going to prove to you that the bible is a viable source therefore proving that all that was written (at least in the historical sense) is true. A lot of you say that you want proof that the bible's prophecies are viable outside of the bible, well i would like to first point out a prophecy written so long ago (we all know that the bible wasn't recently written) and it is being fulfilled today. What is happening in Israel today? Jews from every country are returning to their home land. Does prophecy talk about this? Jeremiah 23:3 states "And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries wither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase" Isaiah 43:5 & 6 state" Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; and I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth";There is no doubt about it. The Jews are returning to their homeland from every corner of the earth. Prophecy is being fulfilled right before our eyes!

Right...the Jews have been migrating to the said area since 70 CE illegally and legally. This "prophecy" is too general, too broad. It can be said for any one group of people.

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Want further proof? In Ezekiel chapter 36, God addresses the Israelites "24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land." The Jews have the best army in the world today, the smartest scientists, and live in a little strip of land that the whole world disputes because the nations of this world are under Satan's control.

You are unbelievably stupid. Israel does not have the best army nor the smartest scientists. Though they are carrying out their own little systematic dismantling of a people who have been living on that land causing other Arab nations to get pissed off which in turn causes the international community to get involved. Add in more than 1000 years of violence and cesspool-quality politics and you get what you have today to put it in very simple terms.

The nations of the world will bring about their own destruction because God said" And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." Ever since Hitler's slaughter of the Jews, we gave them Jerusalem back for a safe haven for them. There are so many who want Jerusalem, but the nations protect it. I don't see how you can state this any other way besides the bible predicted future events.

More nonsense. It's also ironic how that "safe haven" also happens to be a hot spot for terrorists and street violence.

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Now to all of you who still say the bible cannot be trusted, i would like to ask you if you have ever trusted in an autobiography written about someone who lived many years before us, written about someone you have never personally met or seen in pictures. Autobiographies obviously have some bias because they are written by individuals about themselves. They certainly could misinterpret some of their experiences, but how many readers would toss out an autobiography as not a trustworthy book about the author? So, why toss out portions of scripture that are autobiographical?

First, if only autobiographies exist, then we can see which parts of the autobiographies are true such as their achievements. Say, if Person A claimed he/she built the pyramids of Giza alone, we would know from the evidence and data gathered that more than one person was obviously involved. The Bible is completely different from an autobiography in that you cannot prove an invisible sky god who's omniscient and omnipotent came down and possessed a sack of flesh in one particular location for a particular length of time to spread the word of salvation but didn't do so in other parts of the world.

Many biographies are written by people who loved the person they are writing about, but we do not question their validity. Yes, we may see some prejudices or favoritism in a biography, but we can overall trust most biographies, because if they were inaccurate there would be an uproar from others. So, why toss out portions of scripture that are biographical? Unless we have proof they are inaccurate, we need to give them the same trust we would a modern day biography.

We DO have proof that almost all the events in the Bible are complete and utter bullshit. The Tower of Babel? A global deluge? Crossing of the Red Sea? Resurrection of a carpenter? Adam and Eve? The list goes on.

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i know that you want archaeological proof that the bible can be trusted and there are finds in fact that proves that the people and the places did in fact exist in the bible and weren't made up. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html This is a small article talking about some archaeological finds proving some of the events in the bible true.

Just because you put in a semblance of historical setting into a story doesn't make it historically accurate. It'd be like saying Leo Tolstoy's War & Peace is 100% history or Assassins Creed being more accurate than Wikipedia and the Britannica Encyclopedia combined.

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don't let the link fool you,

It's Christian. That's enough for me to not even bother clicking the link. It's probably more of the apologist crap that's spewed out by Bible-defending fanatics on why the Bible is 100% accurate and the word of God.

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this article is based on real archaeological finds. There are other archaeological finds that talk about Jesus being a real man. I know that you know that these have been found to be true because Jesus is talked about in the Encyclopedia Britannica. http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html This is a page that shows some things written out of the bible that refer to the Jesus mentioned in the bible proving that He existed. but what is interesting is that if Jesus was real (shown by other documents other than the bible) and He did in fact say He was the Son of God, why wouldn't He have been written out of the Bible if He were wrong?

Zeus is in the Encyclopedia Britannica. Is he real? What about Odin? Thor? Vishnu? Tengri? The countless animal spirits of shamanism? And your reasoning of "if Jesus was real and he did in fact say he was the son of god, why wouldn't he have been written out of the Bible..?" is incredibly flawed.

That'd be like taking Harry Potter out of the Harry Potter books. Why would you take out the most important protagonist of the story that you created and edited just for the sole purpose of tricking people that Jesus was more godly than manly?

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The Jews hated Him when they crucified Him.

Romans crucified him, the Jews just didn't like him supposedly.

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They had witnessed His miracles, but believed Him to be a heretic, which makes it interesting that the entire New Testament is written basically about Him and His works. There are many witnesses and they wrote their stories explaining what they saw.

NONE of the Gospel authors ever knew Jesus. Not a single one. These were all written LONG after the alleged existence of Jesus. And then processed for editing for the new religion on the rise in the Roman Empire: Christianity. They also contradict each other on various things such as Joseph's father, how Jesus was treated by family, how Judas died and so forth.

No witnesses. Nothing. All bullshit.

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Some say that it can't be trusted because of the religious content in the bible, but if the bible can be shown to be true through archaeological findings and personal notes written by other people saying that those things existed,

Shit.

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then why can't we trust it? Historians only discredit biographies and autobiographies when they are proven false by others, but the people and the things in the bible are mentioned in more than just the Bible. so therefore it can't be discredited as at least a historical artifact.

More shit. Are you ever going to address the people in this thread directly? This is just fucking preaching and arguing from what you hold to be true in your mind.

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But we must also ultimately ask the question, since Jesus existed. Is He God, or was he a liar, or was He a lunatic?

Doesn't matter, didn't exist as a "Messiah".

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http://www.creatingfutures.net/jesus.html this page really explains this very well with some quotes by people about how, with all of the witnessing evidence that archaeologists have found written about Jesus, Jesus couldn't have been a liar or a lunatic. I will let you decide for yourself on that, but i would like to talk about 2 things before i go.

Horseshit.

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1: the reason why i will not be posting on this site anymore is because i don't feel as though you are looking for any real answers, but you are instead just looking to say other's are wrong and that atheism is right.

Whoo~, running away. Simple, direct, and no thinking involved. Good for you.

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I'm not saying this by thought, but by how much i have seen of that on this site. Like obviously there are the christians that aren't very christian at all, but i don't think those people should count because they lack wisdom,

So what? You're the only True Christian and possess all of the wisdom given to you directly by the creator of the universe? Horseshit has been promoted to Gooseshit.

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but with the overwhelming evidence that i have found on the internet explaining so many of your questions in such logical ways,

You have one hell of a twisted definition of "logical" and you did NOT answer any questions. At all.

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i just don't understand how you could even ask them still. i will provide some links to sites that i found to be very good places to find answers to these questions. but another reason why i'm leaving is because i don't feel as though i could be able to present this stuff in the best way because it is on a forum where so many people just post really stupid crap sometimes (some of the "christians" do too).

You are fucking pathetic. Including "Christians" so you don't seem that "anti-nonbeliever". Good job.

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Like i know that there are those who have a lot of education too and they aren't obnoxious like some, but this isn't the kind of place to seek answers. If you are in a community full of people who will shoot down anything, then how are you going to be able to even consider the things said by christians?

The people here don't shoot down everything. They only shoot down stupid shit like this.

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i am sure a lot of you aren't like that and do consider them, but if you truely consider them, then i think that you'd find the answer in God

Gooseshit promoted to Bullocks.

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I have given myself an opportunity to defend and to be honest i feel as though i did a good job, but i just can't do quite the same of a good job as i could in person.

If we met in person, you'd be very dissappointed. The results would be the same. You'd probably get a "call" from your mother or whatever and say you have to go and give me some pamphlet on why a God that is willing to create sinful human beings so they can go to hell to suffer for all eternity loves me. Yeah fuck you too mate.

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i hope you understand that i'm not giving up on any of you. on the contrary. I have been praying for all of you every night ( i know this means probably nothing to you, but honestly my prayers come from every compasionate part of my heart, and you all mean so much to me.)

Thank you.

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I just don't think that i am called to keep presenting to you on a forum, but i will keep learning from here and seeing things, and maybe making a post every month or 2. but i just think that personal relationships are the best way to go about this. For all of you who understand christianity in any sort of way, you know that what i'm saying is something that christians believe in. because i have no religion, i have a relationship with God. and i believe that relationships are the best of saying what needs to be said.

... Okay.

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Now the 2nd thing is that i am extremely disappointed that even though the bible has been taken as historical fact, you still say it's not true.

That's because it ISN'T true.

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you work on a basis of evidence. but you see that's not how the world works all of the time.

The world works like this all the time.

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You have no evidence of how the big bang even occured,

Amazing. Simply baffling. For the sake of argument, let's throw out the Big Bang Theory, the laws of physics and hell, even the Theory of Evolution. How would this make the existence of your silly god even remotely plausible?

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yet you have faith that the universe is in fact all around us. We have no evidence disproving the bible as any sort of historical fact, so we should have faith that it is true, much like many other things written from long ago. why is the bible any different? The world is built on faith. it has been from the start. We have been advancing in science a lot, but as we go further, there are still questions that we need faith to believe they are true and that this universe isn't fake.

Hey, uh, guess how many contributions your religion, even less the existence of your god, has made towards the advancement of science and the answering of very complex questions?

I will give you a hint:

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I do want to talk about a man talked about in the bible. Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples. He said that He would not believe that Jesus had come back from the dead until he had put his fingers through the holes in His hands and felt the hole in His side from when He was stabbed on the cross. But when Jesus came in, He let him do those things so he could believe. now these fundamental words that, in light of all that has been said, Jesus said are "you believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who believe and have not seen." He is talking directly to all of you. He isn't saying that He will rebuke you, but that your beliefs shouldn't be based on complete evidence, but faith. Atheism is in fact a faith. You trust in your evidence, and whatever might prove what you believe, but in fact you are missing so much evidence, so where is your faith?

Fuck your faith. Faith did not help millions of starving children live. Faith did not help the dead boy I held. Faith did not eradicate polio. Faith did not have everyone come together in unison for the Occupy protests. Faith did not help end any war. It is amusing how Jesus appeared back then so many times that the Bible itself says "over 500 people", but where is he now? In the figment of your imagination. That's where.

And atheism does not require faith. It is essentially the lack of faith.

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I will not preach to you because it is against the rules, but i hope you see all that i have said as maybe thought provoking.

You just preached. And it was not thought provoking. It's the same shit we read every day.

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i do pray that you will at least go over this with a completely open mind. Go through the sites i will provide at the bottom and try to find the questions that you have asked your whole life in them. If you don't find it, then talk to someone in person about it. a good christian person. someone that you know.

Bullocks upgraded to ShitForBrains.

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because asking about it on a forum will only give you advice from people you don't even know or trust. so what is the good in that?

Stupid on so many levels.

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I do love you all and i really don't want you thinking that i'm bailing,

Nice covering your ass. But thank you. I also hate you. Just for the giggles.

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because i have given evidence of the bible's validity and Jesus' validity, which is what you've asked for. and please don't respond to this in a quick manor. honestly if you go to your bed or a quiet place and try to pray, even just once, with all of your heart, Just asking God to help you see what He has been trying to show you your entire life (He will answer this prayer), and then answer my post, i will gladly respond to you.

You fail to realize almost EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US were Christian for a long time. Oh but wait, maybe we didn't have wisdom like you do?

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but don't go and do this and expect an instant response, because God will work in His own ways at His own time, but He will answer it. I just want you to come to my side for a bit because i have spent so long on your's,

Child, you did not even spend a fraction of our wasted time as former Christians on this forum.

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and i think that it's rather cowardly not to ever give God a chance. Like how bad can eternal life in heaven with a loving God be?

Considering it's the same God that just doesn't give a shit about the world and looooves animal sacrifices (humans occasionally), I'd rather spend time in hell, chillaxing with your evil Satan.

Also: It's not that we don't like the idea of eternal life meeting your deceased relatives, eating nice gourmet, playing all freaking day for an eternity and being happy. It's that we are repulsed at the idea that the very concept of hell and such a God even exist.

Also it's better that we focus more on our present life since it's our ONLY life (do you remember anything before you were born? That's what most likely awaits you.) and concentrate on making such a paradise for everybody HERE and not AFTER we're dead.

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I do not want you, if you know you will, to go into a prayer constantly thinking that He will not answer it or any doubt in your mind. Seriously just have some sense of faith that there must be a god who loves you and knows you more than you do yourself and individually wants a relationship with you. i mean i know you can't pretend to believe, but if you call out to God, He will hear you. He will. I have no doubt in my mind that He will hear all of you and answer you. just don't expect a verbal response. but give that a try after going through these sites and the answers they provide to certain questions. and i will gladly keep in touch with you in any way i can whether that be by email or this site. i must go to bed now though. I will talk to you all later at some point in time hopefully.

Fuck these I-dedicate-my-cognitive-function-to-god mouthbreathers are boring, and I would much prefer that take their cheap concern and prayers for my soul elsewhere, and just think for themselves for a while in a quiet place about the glaring idiocy that is blind faith..

How many constructive questions were asked and ignored?

The cowards way out, much easier than rationally answering questions with cogent responses.

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

I just had a student this week tell me that we have more factual documentation of Jesus than we have of Julius Caesar. How can I accept that Julius Caesar lived but not Jesus? They just don't get the fact that we reject so much religious stuff as nonsense because it relies on magical miraculous supernatural flimflamery that DOES NOT EVER REALLY HAPPEN. Factual documentation cannot include impossible magical events. Then we don't call it factual. We call it fictional.

"Why do you accept a biography of a famous person from some ancient time as true?" Because the biography of Julius Caesar does not say that he flew to heaven and brought back a unicorn and then turned into a giant sunflower and brought peace to all the world. If the biography said that, we would not believe it was true. But they expect us to believe a story about Jesus that says that he did stuff like that.

Moreover, people in power, like the Roman emperors, popes, kings, etc, have forced everyone under their control to "believe" in the bible stories, or else. Education consisted of reading bible passages up until the 19th century in many places. It is not as if the bible was placed alongside all other available books and judged impartially for truth value. It was accept the bible. Period.

Does kaboose imagine that a kid in Afghanistan raised in a refugee camp, educated for five years by a fundamentalist Saudi imam in a madrasa where they only memorize the Quran, can be expected to objectively judge the truth value of Islam? Would he be swayed by logical arguments if he has no other information except what the Quran says about the world? If kaboose can relate to the frustration he would have with that Afghani kid, he can begin to understand how frustrated we are with folks like him.

ps And oh, yes, the Muslim kid would be praying to Allah for kaboose to see the true wisdom of Islam. Just like my Muslim students promise to pray for me.

Also, we have things Caesar wrote. We have sculptures Caesar posed for. We have tons and tons of documentation about Caesar written while Caesar was alive by his contemporaries.

Who ever says we have as much or more documentation about jesus H as we do Caesar has not done 30 seconds worth of research on the matter.

I received a similar challenge on this once, but it was on firmer ground: Alexander the Great, for whom there actually are no surviving contemporary accounts. (There are still those pesky cities he founded to account for, of course...)

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

PS: if i could talk to each and every one of you personally, i would. i would give up my time in my life to talk to you about this because i believe that your soul is greater than my time.

No, I don’t think you would, since you give such garbage right now. You are one more Christian throwing shit at a wall and hoping some of it sticks. You want to claim that “we” aren’t looking for answers, which is a pathetic LIE. I do get so TIRED of theists who constantly lie about others to save their own ignorance. You all keep claiming that your magical prayers will work and they don’t, not one single one. But you’ll never acknowledge that. No, you’ll keep lying and demonstrating that you don’t really believe in this nonsense, you only are frightened greedy people.

You are the coward here, Kaboose. A coward and a liar. Many of us, including me have reached out to this god and have received nothing. You’ll just hide and claim that we didn’t do something “right” or that it’s “god’s will”. You are an unfortunately accurate representative of Christianity. And hopefully, by your actions and those of your fellows, you hasten the demise of your ignorant faith by your every deceitful word.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Velkyn, you're so right. If these clowns had ANY idea how many tears I shed on my knees to the Flying Spaghetti Monster they wouldn't even go there. They automatically assume that we hate god, hate christians, and just want to score points, in some cases it may be true, but the fact is that's exactly what they are doing. I think you said it perfect. I especially love the ones on other sites who offer their "Proof" or their "Questions Atheist can't answer", then block all comments and letters to them. It's like a spoiled little kid that yells something, then put their hand over their ears and sings, la la la, so they can't hear the answer, much like Caboose is doing right now. (I'm going to throw a bunch of crap, then shut off so I can't hear you"). Funny, he didn't answer one question, then says WE aren't looking for honest answers. Perhaps some aren't, but I know I'd like to hear one real discussion on the subject. Christians love to spout out their crap and then ask questions that they never want to hear an answer to, (IE: If god isn't real, where did the 10 commandments come from? Stop laughing, it was a real question!) I told them that Pope Clementine XVIII wrote them in the 10th century. He was known as the "foot" pope because he wore boxes without tops for shoes. They said "Oh" and walked away.

LOL! Out of Kaboose's entire proclamation, this above phrase is what stood out to me the most. Sure, there was a lot of the typical idiocy in there, but seriously? The Jews have the best army in the world today? REALLY? How can anyone who makes such a hopelessly foolish statement and expect to be taken seriously? Israel's army is pretty good, especially for a country it's size, but come on, how much of their military supplies do they actually innovate, develop, and produce on their own? Not much compared to the USA. And they don't have the naval or air power to truly back it up.

How many planes came about due to Isreali innovation, design and manufacture?

I guess you're saying these among many are Isreali: Boeing, Beech, McDonnell Douglas, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Piper, Cessna, Grumman, Bell, North American, Sikorsky and many many many others.

Out off 119 aircraft, how many are Isreali?

...

9

Looks like without America, Great Britian, Canada, Germany and many other countries Isreal almost wouldn't even have anything to use.

You see, in order to be a "good" military, not only must you have the power to defend your country and be able to defend the new territory you conquer. You also need to be able to have the infrastructure to support it. Pre-1941 Japan knew this. They made a strike, but the main targets were not in Pearl Harbor. They hurt us, but they knew that if they didn't take out those carriers, it was only a matter of time before they lost.