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Subject :logistically difficult site - options?..2012-03-21 16:27:07

steve collins

Fresh Boarder

Joined: 2012-03-21 16:14:35Posts: 6Location:

Hi all

i've been reading a lot about septic tanks and wastewater products in the last while, but i'm still in a bit of a muddle about what my options actually are.

my issue relates to a site in dun laoghaire / rathdown area.

a three bedroom house, on a long and narrow site, bordered on one side by a stream, and on the other by a neighbouring property. there is an existing septic tank which was installed in 1967, and seems to be immediately beside the stream, with no obvious percolation area.

so.. my question really (as a novice consumer to all this) is, what options are there for a site like this?

I've read the EPA manuals and stuff, and one problem is that because of the size and shape of the site, tanks etc physically cannot be located 10M from the stream, and 3M from neighbouring property, and 7M from dwelling houses. not possible.

i had a guy out from a company to look at options.. and he was also very concerned about access to the site. the gate is quite narrow and turns a sharp corner, so he figured there was no chance of getting a flatbed truck with a concrete tank on it in.

i phoned the local council (dlrcoco) and spoke with a water engineer in there. he basically said that i wouldn't get planning permission to install anything outside of the restrictions in the EPA manuals, and he understood that i would want to improve the setup, but couldn't really advise. he did however suggest that a packaged waste-water treatment plant which output 25/35 BOD etc (you guys will know what he meant, i'm sure) could actually be piped into the stream subject to a surface discharge license (there are no existing licenses issued in DLR of this type), and that the treatment plant could be located in areas not covered by the restrictions of the EPA guidelines.

so i've looked into what he was saying a bit, and as far as i can tell, these systems are normally quite big, for maybe rural pubs or nursing homes or situations where a tank / percolation area aren't practical. and i'm figureing they're going to be expensive too....

this is just a small house, i'm hoping to work something out that would cater for 3 or 4 people.

sorry this is such a rambling post, i'm open to anything anyone can suggest me researching further.

I see you looking at working something out for 3/4 people. Are you looking at building an extension or knocking the existing house and rebuilding or just upgrading your septic tank.
Also is your housed served with mains water or is there a well onsite?
Have you any site layout available?

I understand your trouble, I see this a lot in my travels. We are a supplier of packaged systems (www.biopro.ie). It has a small enough footprint and the levels are substantially lower than what you need for discharge to surface water.

Here's the trick. It can be a heck of a process to get a discharge licence (although not unattainable) so most domestic applications don't bother. It sounds like you are at wit's end though and it could be worth your while to engage the council and the EPA at the same time. If you would like I could sit down with you and give you some options.

We have a system that cleans the usual suspects (BOD, SS, etc. to low levels) but we also clean the Phosphorous to a level of less than 1mg/l. We would love the opportunity to engage the council and EPA so if you are up for it drop me an email or visit my website.

Firstly don’t apologise for rambling. Unfortunately you are not alone. The whole country is littered with similar scenarios.

These are my thoughts and recommendations:

First let’s look at the facts.

1) Existing septic tank and percolation area that is non compliant with existing or dare I say previous regulations.

2) The reality is the effluent is more than likely discharging in some format to the stream.

3) Your site can not accommodate a wastewater treatment system compliant with EPA CoP.

4) DLRcoco said no planning will be granted

5) DLRcoco not granting discharge licence.

The first thing to remember is that the EPA CoP states "the CoP applies to all new development. However, existing on-site domestic wastewater treatment systems may fail to meet the performance requirements as set out in this CoP. When this occurs, corrective actions are necessary. Successful rehabilitation requires knowledge of the performance requirements, a sound diagnostic procedure, and appropriate selection of corrective actions. Variances to the CoP requirements may be considered by the local authority when it is satisfied that the proposed upgrade will provide improved treatment and reduced environmental impact. The failure of the existing treatment and disposal system needs to be clearly identified and corrective actions proposed having regard to the requirements of this CoP."

In a nut shell just because you can not achieve the min separation distances don’t worry about it. Sure the local authority engineers looking at the application will see that your proposal is non compliant but you must make a very clear and strong case that post construction your proposal will significantly improve the existing onsite wastewater treatment process. If the local authority refuses your application then I feel An Bord Pleanala (ABP) will come down on your side. A lot of people fear ABP but the people assessing your appeal are practical and know that anything is going to be better than what is there.

Also separation distances were designed keeping noise and smells from wastewater units and septic tanks in mind. There are some serious advanced systems out there that have addressed these issues so again I'd be highlighting this in any proposal. I recently achieved planning permission for 1 site in Cork (and 2 more sites pending approval) and I did not comply with any separation distances because I addressed the noise and smell issues effectively.

In my opinion the Water Framework Directive will take precedence over the CoP. I'm not going to go into utter ramblings about the Water Framework directive expect to say a few things:

DIRECTIVE 2006/118/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 12 December 2006 on the protection of groundwater against pollution and deterioration addresses a number of points:

(1) Groundwater is a valuable natural resource and as such should be protected from deterioration and chemical pollution. This is particularly important for groundwater dependent ecosystems and for the use of groundwater in water supply for human consumption.

(2) Groundwater is the most sensitive and the largest body of freshwater in the European Union and, in particular, also a main source of public drinking water supplies in many regions.

(3) Groundwater in bodies of water used for the abstraction of drinking water or intended for such future use must be protected in such a way that deterioration in the quality of such bodies of water is avoided in order to reduce the level of purification treatment required in the production of drinking water, in accordance with Article 7(2) and (3) of Directive 2000/60/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 October 2000 establishing a framework for Community action in the field of water policy.

Its plain to tell based on your previous posts that the existing septic tank and cesspool is in direct contravention to the Directive. Any proposal you put forward might not be compliant with the CoP BUT the proposed solution will have a net effect of improving the groundwater from “deterioration and chemical pollution.”

Now another bone of contention will be the location of the stream i.e Surface Water. If I were representing you I would carry out an assimilative capacity study on the stream and employ a recognised hydrologist who spends their time preparing reports for ABP. You are lucky at the moment because more often that not applicants are on the back foot responding to a refusal but you can prepare a decent submission at planning stage and put the best foot forward and allay any fears that local authority members may have.

As for your choice of wwtu you will be inundated with choice. Don’t rule out getting a crane to site (€500) to bring in a concrete tank but you should have plenty of choice with the GRP & Plastic manufacturers.

If you need to have a chat drop me a call and I tell you how I approached the application for the 3 sites in Cork,

i'm having so many ups and downs about this over the last while... someone like you gives me lots of hope about things being flexible, someone else totally shoots that down. etc.

also i wasn't told i wouldn't get a surface discharge license. i spoke informally with a council water engineer, and he was quite helpful. he asked around other people he works with and someone suggested that a packaged system could be placed anywhere, but would require the license. he looked up, and saw that there have been none of these licenses issued in this county, but this stretch of road i am looking at is unusual in this area by not having a mains sewage connection.

this doesn't need urgent sorting really, but i need to get my head around it fairly quickly. i went sale agreed on the site, the estate agent assured me there was a mains sewage connection, my structural surveyor found otherwise.. so now it's all stalled while i start from scratch, try to work out what are actual options, and what they will cost.

How far away is the public sewer. If you have to pump to a public sewer keep in mind the actual price of the pumpstation will not be an issue in the overall context BUT ripping up the road and reinstating could be a little pricey. If pumping to a public sewer is an option then go for this and tell the auctioneer you want a discount.

He who has cash is king or in the words of a wise old man...in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king!

Allow 10-12k for the installation of a WWTU and sand polishing filter. As the stream is probably very close to the site there is probably a high enough water table so you might end up constructing an above ground sand filter.

PS Allow 3-5k for a site assessor and hydrologist if you want to put your best foot forward for a planning application OR submit the application and see if it gets through the system without a furhter information request in relation to the WWTU and this will only cost you the fees of a site assessor who knows their suff at about 1200 euro. The assessment is only half the battle. The presentation of the facts and the proposed solution is the other half of the battle.