On 13/08/2009 Dave J wrote:>On 13/08/2009 simey wrote:>>And Dave... for you to talk about aspiring to create climbs without fixed>>gear and then retro-bolt a naturally protected two-star route (Strolling>>RHV) so you could establish Ergonomics, well I would call that hypocritical.>>No...Strolling RHV was a climb done with fixed gear placed on abseil thats differnet in my mind to a route that goes entirely on natural gear...Anyway Ergonomics is the obvious (bolted) finish to Chris Shephards (bolted) line to the right of strollings start I extended a line with 2 bolts and a piton adding 2 more bolts.

>Im sure if Mark had had the vision to finish up the middle of the wall when he did strolling RHV he would have put bolts in it (and maybe even chipped a few holds) and you would be singing his praises.

I actually think Mark's efforts at establishing Strolling and Strolling RHV were slightly flawed. However the original Strolling RHV (before Chris Shepherd added his bolted variant start) was one of the finest grade 24 wall routes at the Mount. It had just enough natural gear to be led ground-up without being a death route and was a prized lead for many climbers (check the photo of Louise Shepherd onsighting it on page 37 of the Arapiles Select guide).

>I hadnt been going to mention the Ergonomics episode as being a good example of how sometimes your personal agendas get in the way of your ability to reason....but since you brought it up.

I find it interesting that you reckon my personal agendas get in the way of my ability to reason despite the fact that you are fully aware that I had rap-inspected Ergonomics way back in the nineties and deliberately chose not to climb it because I didn't want to retro-bolt Strolling RHV. Meanwhile you go ahead and bolt Ergonomics irrespective of how it affected a neighbouring classic.

>Anyway I thought this was a discussion about retrobolting natural, multi-pitch adventure routes at the mount not extending an exsisting clip up.

This is a discussion about bolting and I think the bolts you placed for Ergonomics are far more controversial than my two belay bolts placed on a forgotten part of Tiger Wall.

By the way, I love the way you talk about the creation of Ergonomics as 'extending an existing clip-up' as opposed to 'retro-bolting a memorable run-out on an existing climb because you desperately wanted to do a new route'.

Tell you what Dave, I am more than happy to pull my two bolts out of the The Dribble if you pull your two bolts out of Ergonomics.