It seems like that SNL skit was barely exaggerated. From Neil Marshall, director of episode 9 regarding the nudity in the show:

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It was pretty surreal. I’d not done anything like that in my films before. But the weirdest part was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, “You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it.” So I was like, “Okay, well, if you— you’re the boss.” This particular exec took me to one side and said, “Look, I represent the pervert side of the audience, okay? Everybody else is the serious drama side—I represent the perv side of the audience, and I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene.” So you go ahead and do it.

In all honesty, the way they handled Winterfell was poorly done, especially since they had Roose talking about his Bastard son the past few episodes, it would have just taken ONE scene to show Ramsay sacking Winterfell. The rest wasn't bad. Danaerys' plot was a bit weak, and the House of the Undying was really cut (and dare I say "Hollywood-ized") but did anyone really expect all the vague prophecies to make it to the show? Probably would not have worked. Locking up Xaro and Doreah in the vault was kind of baffling since I really thought Doreah would replace the others as the single handmaiden to Danaerys (and yeah, Xaro comes back, big deal, his plot in book 5 was almost entirely unimportant, he can be cut).

The White Walkers at the end totally kicked ass though. It was the prologue of Book 3, but still I thought it was a great cliffhanger to close on

Not too shabby. A lot was disappointing but I think that's just because I have expectations from reading the book.

The house of the undying was particularly disappointing. From what I remember, she was instructed only to take the first door to her left, and not to succumb to any false realities. She was really a pawn. In this episode, they made it look like she fucked shit up.

Half-hand and Snow fight was not bad. I was expecting Ghost's entrance but whatever, it still worked.

Not liking Robb's turn of events. The TV plot is just not believable. In the books, he was caught up in the moment and made a rash hasty decision to marry Jeyne. Here, he has his mother's counsel and he's still going through it. Like I said, I don't believe it.

I like how Jaquen turned out (I was expecting the face change and I got it).Also, didn't Hot Pie stay at harrenhall?

I also liked Littlefinger's smile after harrenhall was granted to him. Incidentally, when Sansa stood next to him (or anyone for that matter), I'm always surprised at how tall she is.

The final scene was pretty cool. The music really added to it. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I don't remember that happening. What I remember is the 3 horn blast from the point of view of that pimple-faced nightswatchmen. Also, if I remember correctly, that was the birth of name "Slayer". It'll probably be at the beginning of next season.

All in all, this season is not even close to as good as the book, and it wasn't as good as the first, but it was still really good.

there were a couple of things about episode ten that made me go more about the execution of the scenes opposed to the way they changed the storyline. like stannis' scene was good, up until the ending where he stares into the fire and inexplicably agrees with melisandre - i just thought it was cheesy execution. the warlock getting owned was also some awkward cinematography, like it was a shot of daenarys with jets of flames erupting from under her armpits and then cut to the warlock writhing in flame on the ground... it felt cheap. other than that (and robb stark + random hoe) i liked it, in particular jon snow vs the halfhand was pretty good. mostly i think i was spoiled by episode 9 which was awesome.

Not liking how this is going so far. This season was completely inferior to the first one, but it's a problem present in the books too (since I already read the first 2): the quantity of characters and mini plots are ruining the whole picture, especially when the TV show makes changes that accentuate this problem further. The first book/season was better since the plots were less and more connected, you could get a clear picture of what's was happening, thus the pacing was better: here it's so over the place that the plot as a whole is going as fast as a cowshit river. From what I've read, the plot is going even slower in the next books.

In all honesty, the way they handled Winterfell was poorly done, especially since they had Roose talking about his Bastard son the past few episodes, it would have just taken ONE scene to show Ramsay sacking Winterfell.

And cast a semi-major character who appears for one scene? Get real. Ramsay was not showing up this season, it was already said multiple times he wasn't cast, if you still expected him to show up you're delusional. He'll be introduced later, come on.

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The rest wasn't bad. Danaerys' plot was a bit weak, and the House of the Undying was really cut (and dare I say "Hollywood-ized") but did anyone really expect all the vague prophecies to make it to the show? Probably would not have worked.

Sure would have worked better than a sappy, romantic Drogo cameo showing up just to boost TV ratings... but meh. What annoys me the most about this is that they've hyped this for so long only to end it with a dud. "Where are my dragons, bitches? Where are... oh, there they are. Dracarys. Kthxbai." And now they also took away the superb twist in book 3 with the Astapor slavers.

People who liked Jon and Qhorin - are you out of your fucking minds? This was the single most disgusting change to the story so far, IMO. Everything about it was wrong on every level. I nerdrage a lot, but usually eventually shrug it off or just roll my eyes, but this genuinely pissed me off. Fucking D&D hacks...

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Von Cichlid wrote:

I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:

a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

People who liked Jon and Qhorin - are you out of your fucking minds? This was the single most disgusting change to the story so far, IMO. Everything about it was wrong on every level. I nerdrage a lot, but usually eventually shrug it off or just roll my eyes, but this genuinely pissed me off. Fucking D&D hacks...

[/quote]I don't see what was so different, Qhorin wanted Jon to kill him so he could infiltrate the Wildlings, and that's what happened, I thought Jon killed him in the camp in front of Mance in the books but so what? I'm not sure how you could be that upset over this scene.

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Xlxlx wrote:

I very much doubt anyone here is interested in rectal penetration, myself included.

People who liked Jon and Qhorin - are you out of your fucking minds? This was the single most disgusting change to the story so far, IMO. Everything about it was wrong on every level. I nerdrage a lot, but usually eventually shrug it off or just roll my eyes, but this genuinely pissed me off. Fucking D&D hacks...

I really don't see the big deal. I've said it before and I'll say it again: my memory is fuzzy, but here's what I remember from the books.

Qhorin wants Jon to gain the wildling's trust so he can sneak in with them and learn their plans. When they were caught in a dead end by the wildlings in some cave or something, he turned on Jon to make it look like they really were at odds. Jon was having trouble fighting but Ghost showed up and saved the day.

As far as I know, the only significant change was the absence of Ghost. Or am I missing something?

Before being captured, Qhorin tells Jon that he needs to yield to the wildlings. Jon, being the son of Lord Stark, refuses, saying the wildlings only accept oathbreakers and he'd never break his oath. Then Qhorin says he will because he commands it. He tells Jon that he will have to do many awful things to prove himself to the wildlings before they accept him, but that he must not balk, whatever is asked of him. Then Jon reluctantly accepts.

Later they are surrounded, and an archer is about to feather them, but Jon yields. Then Qhorin taunts him as a coward. Jon says Ygritte told him they'd accept him, and she agrees but Rattleshirt doesn't trust him, so to prove himself, he says Jon needs to kill Qhorin. Then they fight. And Jon only wins because Ghost helped him, because Qhorin is a superior and more experienced swordsman. Even then Rattleshirt still doesn't trust him but the other wildlings do.

Without the explicit orders (from both Qhorin and Rattleshirt), Jon killing Qhorin loses all meaningfulness. Also, Jon and Qhorin develop a cool relationship prior to that, but they haven't had any time to really bond in the show, so when he dies, there is no emotional impact like there was in the book. Jon basically looks like he just killed a guy in self-defense and he didn't even ASK to join them. Why would the wildlings accept him? It makes zero sense.

The writers are morons who miss the point of every scene. Even the scenes that are kinda cool, still have something wrong with them. For example:

- I always enjoy Arya and Jaqen, but they mangled up the dialogue, and the Faceless Men do not kill people out of vengeance.- Throne room scene was great as always... but strang to omit Loras asking to be in the Kingsguard. Two lines, and then move on to Margaery's wedding. Sheesh.- Sansa walking away happy was good. But no Ser Dontos. Why bother introducing him in episode 1? And then give away Littlefinger's plot immediately. And give him yet another of the Hound's lines (the one about the liars). - Dracarys. Uh, okay... Thank you, idiot writers, for ruining the most awesome Dany moment of a Storm of Swords.- Maester Luwin dying was heartbreaking, as it should be. But why would he tell Osha to take the boys to the Wall to Jon, which is leagues away, instead of at a closer Stark ally like White Harbour, Karhold, etc?- I liked most of Stannis and Mel, except the strangling part. That was just plain awful.- Varys is always great, and the no-ball-gropping was funny. But please, Ros, just go away. Don't become more important now.- Tyrion/Shae was nice, it's good to see the the pathetic side of Tyrion, for once. He's too badass and pimp the whole time, people need to be reminded that he's insecure and kinda wretched inside. But the whole Shae saying "let's run away to Pentos!" made no sense... unless they are going to dramatically alter Shae's motivations and subsequent scenes with her. Which they no doubt will, since plot points being crucial don't matter to them anymore.

Things that just plain sucked:- The King in the North gets married under the Seven. Whatever happened to "even their gods are wrong?"- Dany has no more handmaidens now? Wot?- Arya didn't kill anyone. - Drogo is a big sap now? lol.

It's weird, the episode had so many issues but I still kinda enjoyed it, not sure why... maybe because it at least succeeded at being entertaining, not sure.

Ironic that the most faithful moment is Tywin's horse shitting in the throne room.

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Von Cichlid wrote:

I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:

a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

And cast a semi-major character who appears for one scene? Get real. Ramsay was not showing up this season, it was already said multiple times he wasn't cast, if you still expected him to show up you're delusional. He'll be introduced later, come on.

What can I say, I have a one track mind I just thought they REALLY screwed up on that one. Casting a semi-major character for one scene would have been better than ruining one of the best plot twists in the damn series. Maybe it was just me, but I got chills when I read it the first time, and it was by far the worst adapted part of the book. They didn't even make a reference as to what happened. How would non-readers understand the lack of transition in those scenes? The Ironborn betray Theon in order to get home alive. Total copout, much weaker than the book, but ok, I'll go with it. Here's where it gets worse though: So from here one can assume that they planned to hand him over to the besieging northerners and surrendered. Next Winterfell scene: Winterfell is burning and everyone inside is dead. Where was the transition? How did this happen? Did the Ironborn sack Winterfell on their way out the door? Even with the promise amnesty from Robb, I don't think the northerners would just forgive such an act and send the ironmen on their merry way. And in the context of the show, why would the northerners sack their own city? BOOK SPOILERS:

Anyone who hasn't read the books yet does not know the type of people the Boltons are. The only line Roose Bolton has which even hints at the any darker side to his character is the dialogue with Robb about flaying prisoners. No non-reader would know how evil Ramsay is, or even begin to guess at Roose's plans, because it was like the whole plotline was cut.

Sure, they can introduce Ramsay later, but I think it was this introduction that gave him this appeal. By introducing him later, we're left with a much weaker character. The guy makes Joffrey look like a damn saint, how could HBO pass up such a great villain? I really do understand that the Lady Hornwood backstory would not have worked on TV, but they could have done something, considering how many times Roose mentioned "sending his bastard to retake Winterfell."

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Sure would have worked better than a sappy, romantic Drogo cameo showing up just to boost TV ratings... but meh. What annoys me the most about this is that they've hyped this for so long only to end it with a dud. "Where are my dragons, bitches? Where are... oh, there they are. Dracarys. Kthxbai." And now they also took away the superb twist in book 3 with the Astapor slavers.

Yeah, I agree, the Drogo cameo was terrible. I don't think it would have been that hard to show a flow of vague images instead, but like you said: ratings. Besides, they haven't cast Rhaegar or Aerys to be used in flashbacks or talked about her childhood home with the red door, so they wouldn't be left with much to work with from the book. I guess a flow of random images from previous episodes would have worked, but not too disappointed. They SHOULD have somehow introduced the "Dragon has Three Heads" prophecy. A good simple one for the show. I don't think the "three fires, three mounts, three betrayals" one would have worked at all in the show. Nobody would remember it (hell, I've read the books numerous times and I don't even remember it), and by the time they are all fulfilled, who knows how far rewritten the show will be. But the "Dragon has Three Heads" seems to be much more important to the story's climax. Oh well, since they rewrote Dany's story to give her more action, I guess Quaithe can give her the prophecy later. I don't think they really ruined any "twist" with the Astapor slavers. Anyone could have seen that one coming. I don't mind them getting a bit ahead of themselves with the dragons. If I remember right she learned "dracarys" on the ship to Astapor anyway, so they just had her use it preemptively.

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People who liked Jon and Qhorin - are you out of your fucking minds? This was the single most disgusting change to the story so far, IMO. Everything about it was wrong on every level. I nerdrage a lot, but usually eventually shrug it off or just roll my eyes, but this genuinely pissed me off. Fucking D&D hacks...

I agree. There were so many ways they could have made it better. Just one actual dialogue between Jon and Quorin at ANY point, explaining what was going on in Quorin's head. They wasted multiple opportunities to make it work. The crucial part here was Quorin's command. Without that it makes very little sense. The part with Ghost, while proving what a badass Quorin was, wasn't entirely necessary. The fact that they cut out his actual friendship with Quorin was pretty disappointing though. I still think Theon's ending was a much weaker adaptation than this though. Maybe its just because I like Ramsay

I liked the episode despite some issues:-I didn't get what happened in Winterfell.-I was expecting much more from the House of the Undying based on what I read here.-I thought Sansa was going to run away with the Hound? Now I guess with Joffrey marrying someone else, there will be more crying.-Are we supposed to know what was that Brotherhood they kept torturing people about by now? (In the books I mean)-Jon Snow killing Qhorin was hard to believe. He's like a living legend, how can someone "new" to the Night's Watch beat him? The fight was good though.

Read Morrigan's post to know why Jon managed to kill Quorin. Quorin kind of sacrified himself to save him, the whole scene was a mess and it's a damn shame because it's one of the best part in the book. They also screwed over the House of the Undying (and the whole Daenerys' story, if I might say)

I liked the season, but there's so many choices in the writing that I can't understand. When the source material is better and doesn't require more budget, why changing it? Why adding useless characters (this redhead prostitute named Ros) in the show while real characters will only be introduced later, during the 3rd season. Adding the Reeds would had been nice and while Ramsay is not very present and he'll be cast later, the whole Winterfell sack scene lose all its meaning, Belial didn't get it and I'm sure many others didn't.

Episode 9 and the Arya story are saving the season in my opinion, while there's some differences in her story, it was well done. I also liked Robb's parts, but changing his lover character was annoying, why choosing to remove Jeyne Westerlind and instead adding a high born lady from another country. Making him a point of view character was a good decision though, Catelyn is a boring character in the book.

But, I think, I can call this season a disappointment, probably due to my fanboyism and my love of the books. Still, it was enjoyable and I can't wait for the 3rd season.

This adaptation sounds like a real mess. I've enjoyed reading Morrigan's commentary especially as it has been one of the main reasons for my avoidance of the series. ASOIAF is one of my favorite fantasy series and I don't fancy having it ruined for me (i.e. Lord of the Rings).

Incidentally, I really enjoy it when one of my friends (who has started reading "A Game of Thrones" but hasn't bothered to finish it) tells me about the series and how great such and such a part was. I just roll my eyes and say "well that's great, but it wasn't in the book".

Roose Bolton's bastard, Ramsay, who had come to retake the castle sacked it instead. In the books this makes a lot more sense because you'd been hearing about some of his disturbing evil shenanigans beforehand.

Belial wrote:

-I was expecting much more from the House of the Undying based on what I read here.

Supposed to be a whole heap of confusing and prophetic visions followed by a showdown with a whole council of freaky half-alive immortal warlocks.

Belial wrote:

-I thought Sansa was going to run away with the Hound? Now I guess with Joffrey marrying someone else, there will be more crying.

She refused the Hound's offer.

Belial wrote:

-Are we supposed to know what was that Brotherhood they kept torturing people about by now? (In the books I mean)

Not really. It'll be explained next season.

Belial wrote:

-Jon Snow killing Qhorin was hard to believe. He's like a living legend, how can someone "new" to the Night's Watch beat him? The fight was good though.

It was a ruse; he intentionally lost so that the Wildings would trust Jon. The show handled it poorly.

bringer_of_terror wrote:

This adaptation sounds like a real mess. I've enjoyed reading Morrigan's commentary especially as it has been one of the main reasons for my avoidance of the series. ASOIAF is one of my favorite fantasy series and I don't fancy having it ruined for me (i.e. Lord of the Rings).

Incidentally, I really enjoy it when one of my friends (who has started reading "A Game of Thrones" but hasn't bothered to finish it) tells me about the series and how great such and such a part was. I just roll my eyes and say "well that's great, but it wasn't in the book".

It's still a good series, despite the fanboy rage that brews in me whenever they change stuff or mess things up. Definitely worth a watch, at least.

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gomorro wrote:

Fortunately the seminar started and when it finished, I runed away like if Usain Bolt were about to rape me.

You're joking right? Complaining about changes when you've never actually been able to experienceis parody right? Mocking others for liking something you haven't seen which alters something you haven't read is parody right? It is isn't it?

People should read westeros.org though, it is interesting without being too defensive. I stand by that the worst thing to happen to Daneyris was written by Martin himself, killing Khal Drogo was more interesting for the novelty (people die from infection!) than for plot (Dany is an over entitled spoiled bitch)

I don't mind scraping the prophecies, since prophecy is the worst thing that appears in popular fantasy IMO. Seriously what does it ever gain?

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Naamath wrote:

No comments, no words need it, no BM, no compromise, only grains in her face.

I thought it was obvious that Qhorin let Jon win. I guess they could have been "more explicit," but just the scene where Qhorin whispers to Jon to do the right thing then pushes him down the slope and comes out with all this hostility clued me in to what was going on pretty easily.

_________________and we are bornfrom the same womband hewn fromthe same stone - Primordial, "Heathen Tribes"

I guess for non-readers, the sacking of Winterfell was intended by the show writers to be ambiguous, but what annoys me the most is how Maester Luwin said nothing about it. Did he just run to the godswood as soon as he got stabbed and missed the sacking/burning part?

But if the writers meant for it to be ambiguous, well, I won't say who did burn Winterfell since it'd be a spoiler, I guess the TV producers intended it as ambiguous for a later surprise. But, well,

Yeah, I kinda inferred the spoiler there, since it was the only conclusion that even remotely made sense... except if it weren't for you guys I wouldn't know who the hell Ramsay is or why his forces would do something like that. I mean...shit, I barely even understood who Roose was, apart from being some random retainer of the Starks I'd never seen before, let alone "his bastard." Whoever or wherever the hell he was. And yeah...no one even hardly discussed it after the fact, which made it even more confusing. They should've put in some tits to make it all tie together.

You read plenty of spoilers already, you can read about it too, I guess! Ramsay is a cruel maniac, one of my favorite characters! There was some rumours Cillian Murphy will be playing him, would be very cool!

Wait, so why would he destroy Winterfell if he is the bastard of the commander under Robb?

That's a good question and will be surely addressed in the future seasons. Was the bastard acting under his own volition, or is there something else going on? If you want to know, well, (READ AT YOUR OWN RISKS)

House Bolton will actually betray the Starks and side with the Lannisters in the war. This results in both the burning of Winterfell and an event that will be known as "the Red Wedding". More than that, and I won't say, even with spoiler tags. Look it up on the Internet if you really don't mind knowing the major twists in advance. That said, Lord Bolton does not entirely control his bastard son as much as he'd like to, as you will eventually see.

Metantoine wrote:

You read plenty of spoilers already, you can read about it too, I guess! Ramsay is a cruel maniac, one of my favorite characters! There was some rumours Cillian Murphy will be playing him, would be very cool!

What rumours? All I ever hear about that is pure wishful thinking. Personally I don't want him at all. I don't get the BFD about this actor.

And please, people (in general not you Tony), do NOT post book spoilers here that haven't been shown in the show, at least not without using spoiler tags. Show some respect.

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Von Cichlid wrote:

I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:

a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

I think Cillian Murphy is a good choice for Ramsay if you base it on his looks (just give him long hair, he's already got Ramsay's face, especially the "wormy" mouth) and previous work as a psychopath (Scarecrow in Batman Begins, and the killer from Red Eye). If they made a Game of Thrones movie (impossible given the scope) he would be my first choice. However in regards to the TV show, he's already too much of a well-known, established actor. With the exception of Sean Bean, they haven't used big names, and probably don't have the budget to do so. Plus I would much rather they used an unknown for Ramsay. The look doesn't matter as much to me as someone who can really pull off that twisted persona. Ramsay is literally one of the cruelest, most sadistic and sociopathic (and not necessarily in the "completely insane" way) characters ever created in a work of fiction. They probably have to tone him down a bit for the show, but they need an actor to get him right.

So I gather the consensus opinion here on season 2 is one of disappointment? Makes me curious what the reactions have been like on more rabid Martin fan sites, and whether or not any of the potential backlash might influence the way they handle some of the aspects of future seasons. They do want to maintain ratings, subscriptions, and DVD sales, after all...

Really? I've hardly touched the books, but even I could tell there was a massive dropoff in season 2 compared to the excellent first season. Even if I didn't have you people pointing out all the changes, there's still a palpable decline in quality, writing- and directing-wise. Maybe it's just the challenge of keeping momentum behind all the separate subplots simultaneously, but the season felt seriously fragmented and listless. It usually felt like hardly any progress was made in any given subplot from episode to episode, and only punctuated occasionally with a pivotal event. This might not necessarily be a problem, but the writing was so mediocre half the time that I felt whatever potential there was was going to waste. If the plot's moving slowly, at least give us some intricacy or subtlety in the dialogue to draw us into what IS going on.

Yeah as a non book reader season 2 is worse because some episodes are very, very cluttered, Dany is unlikeable and her segments are too short, and I think losing the Dothraki has been a huge loss, likewise John Snows parts are too scattered and brief, Robbs love story is pretty lame. Really the best things are Tyrion, Winterfell (again rushed and scattered), Jaime (minor part), and Joffreys continued evilness. Episode 9 is great though, both for the imagery and effects, and because it is focussed on one event, something the rest of the season would have been helped by. Its still a really good show, just not as good as last season

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Naamath wrote:

No comments, no words need it, no BM, no compromise, only grains in her face.

Agreed with pretty much everything ghengis said. I wonder if it would've worked better if, instead of fragmenting up each episode into all these piddling bits, they could've written certain episodes as more character-specific, delving into only one or two subplots in each episode so as to bring more of a sense of depth to each of them and give them each a fair turn. Probably easier said than done, but since the passage of time was vague as it was, I don't know of strict time/simultaneity continuity between each story would've been an issue. I mean it seems like they could've covered practically everything that happened with both Jon and Daenerys in the entire season in about two episodes and left the rest of the running time to everything else.

I know that sounds idealized and it probably is, but I feel as though they could've found a better writing strategy than what they settled on. Just at least spending more time with each character in one go... more than two minutes, for god's sake.

Yeah...anyway, Tyrion still rules, and Joffrey's still a despicable piece of shit

Good points from the above posters. How do you guys feel about the next season being based only on the first half of book three? I imagine it'll allow them to focus more on specific events/characters and develop things more.

20 episodes is too much for ACoK, but 12 or 13 episodes would have been perfect. Most HBO shows have 12 episodes per season at least, anyway, not sure why HBO was so insistent on keeping 10... eh.

I don't know, I think it will be good. It seems the writers of the show are way too insistent on wasting time with useless 1 on 1 drama dialogues instead of plot-forwarding content. Maybe with the extra time they can squeeze in more good stuff.