Dear
Dr. Irene,
I was married to a man for 16 years who has obsessions and compulsions
with narcissistic traits. He left marriage counseling and further help
when the therapist said he needs approx. 5yrs of therapy before she can
help our marriage. Maybe she was trying to help you - leave.

She
also said that most of the marriage issues he complained about would
not even be an issue after they treated him. I tried to help him and
our family, but he just blamed me, the kids and everyone else around
him. "If only we would just do what he wanted he wouldn't have to be so
abusive...." Really?

We
have 5 children (15,11,8,7,7). The last years of our marriage was his
punishing me for not being able to work a full time job due to daily
"stress induced" migraines. Ironically my 15yr old had the same
headaches. He dropped the bomb last year that he had found another
woman who was very well off. “He was going to finally make a lot of
money being with her”. He filed for divorced. It has been a year and I
am so happy that he has done this. You're fortunate to be rid of him!

I hate to see any family break up but I think I would have been dead if I still lived with him. I had so many ills from stress
from migraines to I.B.S. to TMJ. Verbal and emotional
abuse literally makes people sick! Ironically me and my son have not had migraines
since we no longer have to be with him daily! Exactly!
Like in the marriage, he has been
just as selfish and cruel in the divorce thinking he should have everything and
I should have crumbs. He stole the family business which I helped make, took my
home, ruined my credit, took any money we had etc. I'm
sorry... This last year I have
regained myself physically and mentally and am shocked at the hell that I
endured for years! This is what I keep trying to tell
those abused people who write me. It's HUGE!

I knew there was things wrong but never knew how bad it was
even when everyone around me was sickened at how me and the kids lived!
That's common. You just get used to the conditions and
whatever they are become "normal." :(

My
heartache is the children. My 15 yr old is very smart and sees his father for
what he is. He asked me to file for full custody of him. Since the separation
the court has allowed my husband to have 50% custody. I agreed in the beginning
when I was still very controlled by him. My oldest son goes because he is
afraid to confront his father and also wants to be by the smaller children
which he should not have on his shoulders. He told me that his father has been
placing terrible “guilt trips” on them in order for him to keep 50% custody and
plans to ask for more!" Here is where the problem is: All but my oldest son
are
being convinced. He keeps asking them "why they want to be with dad when he is
so abusive and selfish" and they just can’t see it. I was always there to
“save” them from his angry outbursts. I raised them myself because he could
never be bothered with them all those years. I want to help them and raise them
in a healthy atmosphere. How can they fall for this when they see first hand
how verbally abusive and controlling he is when they are there as opposed to
the loving and peaceful time that they have with me? It's
funny isn't it? Kids often identify with the parent they see as the "strongest,
most powerful" one.

I am so petrified that he
will fool the courts and then I will no longer be able to help them.
Well, you can suggest that your 15 year old talk to the
Court, on his behalf and for the kids. Perhaps the Court will consider
appointing a Legal Guardian. Or, if an incident has taken place, perhaps your
son can talk to Child Protective. There are lots of options, depending on what
is going on.

I feel
like I have been “saved” from a life of hell but I can’t save my children.
No you can't. How
can I help my children to see that he is manipulating them and that he will
never change unless he gets help? You can't. If the
situation is hurtful to them, it may help if you and their brother issue some
sort of complaint. I explain this to them as does my son but
they said they feel sorry for him and don't want him to be mad.
Please keep in mind that the children may actually want to be with their
dad half the time. It certainly is possible they feel sorry for him, etc., but
it is also possible that they tell you those things because they don't want to
hurt you by telling you they like dad. Kids need both parents, and they
get different things from each. Keep in
mind that young kids, who don't have their own mind yet, do OK with a
controlling parent. They see this person as very strong, and they like that.
It's as they get into their teens, as they develop their own minds, when
control problems often start. So, you may have to wait, and keep your ears open
meanwhile.

I thought as
with my older son they would have wanted to be with me the majority of the time,
and I feel like I have somehow failed them as mother! NO!
Please don't personalize this! You are not the All Powerful Mom. No one is.
The kids are doing what kids do: trying to negotiate keeping both parents
in their lives, that's all. They love and need both of you! Can you please make some
sense of this for me? Thank you, Carlie Dear Carlie,
this is complicated stuff. You need to get some counseling around this issue.
Especially if you feel like a failed mom, because you are certainly not! But
you have to be engaging in codependent-type thinking to feel this way. Another
excellent reason to get some counseling. Finally, the counselor can help you
better accept the relationship the young ones have with their dad, as well as
getting a better sense if what's going on is OK or not.

Dr. Irene, I have done a great amount of work on myself regarding my abusive H.
Excellent! We
have two daughters, 2 years and 6 mos old. His specialty seems to be
nothing less than emotional and psychological torture. Sounds as though he may have a sociopathic streak. This
seems to come to him naturally, like breathing. I have gotten stronger
now after 2.5 years of marriage, and find myself no longer needy of him
at all. Excellent! I am keeping a regular diary, and reading and re-reading, and seeing the patterns of narcissism and cruelty on his part.
Excellent! By the way, narcissism and sociopathy are
closely related disorders. I am trying to detach myself emotionally from him first before taking any action to leave.
This book may increase your understanding of him:
Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and
Controlling Men
by Lundy Bancroft.

I am
observing him resort to new methods of getting to me now that he sees
me being detached from him, and as I detach, I am seeing him for what
he is: an impaired, inhuman, cruel, pitiful person who never had
anything to offer to keep my interest except for mind f*** (excuse my
French). I think though that I am coming now to the core of my
co-dependency, which is scary. Yes it is. Keep in mind that it is OK to do things
even if you feel frightened, and that as you master each task, the fear
will evaporate. And you will feel very, very good about yourSelf!

KNOWING who he is and how he is, why do I STILL hope?
Because you are Human. By hoping that things will change, you don't have to
face your fear of doing all the things life without him would entail. This seems ludicrous to me.
It is ludicrous, but we're all a little ludicrous
at times. The good news is that this is something that you can change!
There
are times when I find myself still going into the land of make believe,
where I want to believe that there is hope for the marriage, that he is
going to change, etc etc. You go there to find comfort from your fear of changing.
Seeing yourSelf make the same mistake over and over again is also part of the
process of change, so don't get too upset with yourself.

Dr.
Irene, I want to kill this hope, because it is unhealthy for me and my
kids to keep going through the torture that he puts me through. Your hope is only a feeling. It is not a bad
feeling, but you are using it as an escape mechanism, so it slows you down.
Once the girls develop a mind of their own, I am afraid he will abuse them emotionally as well.
Probably. Why do I have hope?
Because you are frightened and Human. Where does it come from?
You.

How do I make it go away, and get hope for something POSSIBLE for a change?
See below. How do I forgive myself for having the hope still?
There is nothing to forgive. Each of us does the
best we can do. Sometimes we're lucky enough to spot a problem area, as you
have. So now, we go about changing it. But
I really really want to leave this horrible, torturous life where I
continuously have to walk on eggshells, and am continuously criticized,
ordered around, my plans undermined, my thoughts and beliefs
undermined, ignored, demeaned. Of course you do.

Look at it this way: you use your hope to keep you
from having to experience the fear you associate with things you fear
doing/ haven't done/ etc. It's an automatic reaction; a bad habit; a coping
mechanism. You CAN work your way through this because you KNOW your wishful
thinking just keeps you stuck.

Make a list of all the things you know you have to do
to move on. Add to it all the time. Everything from finding an attorney to an apartment to
grocery shopping to paying the bills to
daycare to getting through tomorrow to spending a Holiday alone. It will be a
long list. As you accomplish each item, cross it off. Do what you have to do even if you feel frightened doing it.
Notice yourself lapsing into hope from time to time instead of dealing with all
this stuff! That's OK. Just take yourself out of there and get back to work as
soon as you are ready. The more you face the things you fear or overwhelm you, the
more mastery you will
feel; the more you will like yourSelf.

Dear Dr. Irene: I am feeling very angry and very hurt. I know I am in an
emotionally abusive relationship and have been for a very long time. It always
comes out of nowhere, when I least expect it.

Yesterday we had a garage sale. This morning my husband asked me to go through
several boxes in our garage which contained my darkroom stuff and throw stuff
away. I said that I didn't want to do it today, that I had other plans (grading
papers, gardening, etc.), but that I would go through them another day soon. He
got angry and yelled at me. Now when he gets angry and shouts, it makes me very
angry. I think I am so angry because this behaviour is a pattern and it has
been going on for years. I used to be very passive, but now I am not. I told
him I did not like the way that he was trying to plan my day. That I do not do
that to him, and that it was unreasonable of him to get angry just because I
didn't want to do what he wanted me to do when he wanted me to do it.
Reasonable enough thing to say - to a reasonable
person...

I should have known that trying to explain how I felt would not resolve the
issue. Unfortunately. He got angrier at my response and stormed out of the room, saying he was
tired of my name calling and abuse. I tried to talk to him again later.
Why? You were still trying to get him to understand?
He
began to "you" me. He just used your talking to
him as another opportunity to be icky. Claiming that I was being abusive because I accused him of
trying to plan my day. I said I only said that after he became angry. He then
argued that I had said that first and that since I had been in therapy, I
should know better. (I can never win any argument with him, because he always
turns it around). He also never apologizes for his behaviour.
Just for the record, when he tries to plan your day
(control), he is in your space, where he has no right to be. Telling him to get
out of your space is defensive behavior. The way you say it determines
whether your words come out respectful or ugly. But, that's just for your
understanding. No point in trying to get him to understand because he's likely
to twist this too.

I said I was tired of being yelled at and that his anger was an issue. I asked
him if he would take responsibility for his anger, stop drinking (he drinks
several drinks every day, which I think adds to the problem
Yep.). The argument just
kept spiraling out of control with accusations. Stop the
argument; no point in having it. Then he left the house without
saying where he was going and he avoided me all day, giving me the silent
treatment. (Which is what usually happens). I now no longer sit around and
wait. I go out and do things, get the car washed, do the grocery shopping, etc.
Good.

This behaviour now makes me so angry. He would not tolerate any of our children
talking or acting in this manner. I told him I was furious, that I am tired of
this behaviour, that I am frustrated because we can never sit down and work
anything out because he refuses to sit and talk calmly without loosing his
temper and yelling. I told him I have noticed that he doesn't do that with the
children, that he can control it, but he only does that with me. I told him
that when he looses his temper it makes me want to distance myself from him,
and pushes me away. He said it is my anger was the problem and that nothing can
be worked out because I get angry. I said I only become angry after he does,
and that I am willing to own up and take responsibility for my part and for my
anger. If I do say anything cruel, I do apologize. I know I sometimes "you"
him, but at least I'm willing to own up when I make a mistake and lose it. Most
of the time when he is angry I keep my calm. Good. When
you stay calm, you are more likely to keep your self-esteem - since you sink it
whenever you behave like him!

After spending the rest of the day without speaking to me, nor I to him. I am
spun back into this place of emotional pain that I am all too familiar with. I
know nothing will be resolved. I know I need to take the next step and file for
divorce. Although I never seem to take that next step. Now I am afraid it is
having an effect on me. My memory is bad and I have problems with GERD and I
can tell that this is triggered by the stress of these episodes. I have asked
him if he is willing to change and work on his anger. His response is only if I
will work on mine. I have done years of therapy and I meditate. I do not yell
at him or call him names. However, I do tell him when I am tired of his
behaviour.

I have been in this marriage for so long, I'm not sure if I have the courage to
leave and live on my own. However, I long for intimacy and know there is no
possibility of it with someone who you cannot have a conversation with about
something as simple as unpacking boxes without them getting angry. What should
I do? Well, seems you more or less have the two main
choices outlined: continue trying to get through to him, have these awful
fights, get sick from the stress; or, begin planning to leave. Nobody can make
these choices for you.

One more option that may help is for you to
disengage from the arguments. Emotionally disengage. Don't go there.
Stop caring what he thinks so much. Stop trying to change what he thinks. Stop
trying to get him to understand; to apologize; stop trying to reason with him,
since all these things you've tried lead to more arguments. Begin to disengage
emotionally so that you no longer seek his approval, his permission, his
apology, you no longer need him to understand, etc. When he gets mad, just
acknowledge that he's angry and don't do anything about it. After all, it's
his anger, not yours. If he starts yelling, leave the house. Much easier
said than done.

ALANON helps codependents disengage from their addict;
helps them to care less and get more into taking care of the self. Melody
Beatty writes books from a 12-Step tradition to help codependents disengage
emotionally from their addicts. (Even though she refers to alcohol addicts, you
can change the word "alcohol" to "anger" and it's the same thing.) Codependent No More: How To Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for
Yourself.

Why not try this direction first if you're not sure
which way to go? Good luck to you, Dr. Irene

April 25, 200507:49 PM

Dear Dr. Irene:

I am feeling very angry and very hurt. I know I am in an emotionally abusive
relationship and have been for a very long time. It always comes out of
nowhere, when I least expect it. Yes. It comes just as
you are feeling safest. Because when you are feeling close, your partner feels
threatened; needs space.

Yesterday we had a garage sale. This morning my husband asked me to go through
several boxes in our garage which contained my darkroom stuff and throw stuff
away. I said that I didn't want to do it today, that I had other plans (grading
papers, gardening, etc.), but that I would go through them another day soon. He
got angry and yelled at me. Now when he gets angry and shouts, it makes me very
angry. I think I am so angry because this behaviour is a pattern and it has
been going on for years. I used to be very passive, but now I am not. I told
him I did not like the way that he was trying to plan my day. That I do not do
that to him, and that it was unreasonable of him to get angry just because I
didn't want to do what he wanted me to do when he wanted me to do it.
Reasonable and healthy reply on your part.

I should have known that trying to explain how I felt would not resolve the
issue. He got angrier at my response and stormed out of the room, saying he was
tired of my name calling and abuse. Typical abusive
reply. The abusive person gets mad that s/he's been called on his/her behavior
and gets mad that you got mad! Note that by now, your original issue -
planning your day - is lost. Now the argument is that you have been abusive to
him! Hoho!

I tried to talk to him again later. He began to "you" me. Claiming that I was
being abusive because I accused him of trying to plan my day.
Typical! Now you are the abuser! This tendency to disown his own stuff so much
and project it onto you (so that you are seen as doing what he is actually
doing) is called "projective identification" and is a pretty serious sign of
mental illness.

The only way to respond to this is something along the
lines of, "First, we talk about my complaint because I brought it up
first. When we're done, we can talk about your complaint." But good luck
getting your partner to stick to this outline. You will have difficulty
sticking to this outline as well. So maybe you would "win" an argument if you
just stuck to logic, and didn't let yourself be sidetracked. But, so what? What
will that accomplish? He will find other ways to obfuscate. But it probably
won't work because your partner's memory and your memory are 180 degrees apart.
The "techniques" your partner uses to obfuscate are not planned out and
conscious. They are part of his survival mechanisms. Part of sick thoughts and
feelings that you can't fix. I said I only said that after he became
angry. He then argued that I had said that first and that since I had been in
therapy, I should know better. (I can never win any argument with him, because
he always turns it around). He also never apologizes for his behaviour.

I said I was tired of being yelled at and that his anger was an issue. I asked
him if he would take responsibility for his anger, stop drinking (he drinks
several drinks every day, which I think adds to the problem
I am sure you are right.). The argument just kept
spiraling out of control with accusations. "The argument"
did not spiral out of control of it's own accord. Both you and your husband
contributed to the spiral. If either of you chose not to "dance," the argument
would not have spiraled. Then he left the house without saying where he
was going and he avoided me all day, giving me the silent treatment. (Which is
what usually happens). I now no longer sit around and wait. I go out and do
things, get the car washed, do the grocery shopping, etc.
Good for you!

This behaviour now makes me so angry. Of course!!!
He would not tolerate any of our children talking or acting in this manner. I
told him I was furious, that I am tired of this behaviour, that I am frustrated
because we can never sit down and work anything out because he refuses to sit
and talk calmly without loosing his temper and yelling. I told him I have
noticed that he doesn't do that with the children, that he can control it, but
he only does that with me. I told him that when he looses his temper it makes
me want to distance myself from him, and pushes me away. He said it is my anger
was the problem and that nothing can be worked out because I get angry.
How can you argue with this? You can't. So, why bother... I said I only
become angry after he does, and that I am willing to own up and take
responsibility for my part and for my anger. If I do say anything cruel, I do
apologize. I know I sometimes "you" him, but at least I'm willing to own up
when I make a mistake and lose it. Most of the time when he is angry I keep my
calm. But he's not able or is not willing to take
responsibility, etc. Just because you can and do, why do you think he should?
Obviously, he doesn't!

After spending the rest of the day without speaking to me, nor I to him. I am
spun back into this place of emotional pain that I am all too familiar with. I
know nothing will be resolved. I know I need to take the next step and file for
divorce. Although I never seem to take that next step. Now I am afraid it is
having an effect on me. My memory is bad and I have problems with GERD and I
can tell that this is triggered by the stress of these episodes.
No doubt in my mind that this stuff can and will make you
sick! I have asked him if he is willing to change and work on his anger.
His response is only if I will work on mine. See how
nicely he shirks responsibility again? I have done years of therapy and
I meditate. I do not yell at him or call him names. However, I do tell him when
I am tired of his behaviour. But you haven't figured out
yet that he won't change?

I have been in this marriage for so long, I'm not sure if I have the courage to
leave and live on my own. It's never easy to face one's
fears. But, don't kid yourself: you have more than what you need to leave.
Anybody strong enough to put up with such JUNK for years as you have can
certainly face the peaceful relative calm of the unknown! However, I
long for intimacy and know there is no possibility of it with someone who you
cannot have a conversation with about something as simple as unpacking boxes
without them getting angry.

This book will help you change you to deal with him
more effectively (though I think you're already doing a pretty good job). And
it will help you understand that you can only do so much - and then the only
choice you have for sanity in your life - is to leave. God bless you. Dr. Irene