(13-12-2012 05:11 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote: Oh Hughsie. They got to you didn't they? Sad day. The problem with this and with all monitoring, tracking, and invasive measures being forced on us without our permission is that it sacrifices freedom and personal liberties for the illusion of security. Using your logic, what's wrong with installing microchips in all citizens that tracks your location and your activity? Only people who are up to no good would be opposed to this, right? They're basically already doing this using cell phones and GPS systems built into every new car. Why not abolish our right to own firearms? Innocent, law-obeying civilians have no use for guns and so the military and police should be the only ones with access. Let's go a step further and put cameras in all our houses. Why not? If you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to hide.

Invasive implementations like this aren't about "what can they do with them right now?" It's about "what will they do with them later?" Trust in your government is a day to day evaluation that is subject to change. Years from now, when the facade of "elected officials working for the people" has completely crumbled and we are unwillingly oppressed by a Big Brother, I would prefer it if nationwide cameras weren't already in place to monitor my every move.

I can't think of any reason off the top of my head to care if the Government know where I am (provided the information is used responsibly of course). Over here firearms are mostly illegal and, shockingly, we have a lot less gun crime and people's lives aren't adversely affected. Cameras in homes is slightly different in my mind. In a house it's a private setting, though to be honest I can't see any reason to be that bothered (again, provided footage was used responsibly under appropriate safe-guards). A bus is a public setting, anyone doing something in a public place and then complaining that they might be seen/heard by people is a grade A dumbass in my opinion.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....BestFerdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.WorstFerdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.

The problem for me, coming from a country where Bob Mugabe would *love* to have his hands of tech like this, is sure, it's all fine when things are going well. Can you imagine though if say you were the Resistance in WW2, and the Nazis (oh yes, I went there) could listen in on you like this ? No resistance movement can ever get organized. No resistance is possible. The secret police can collect you when you so much as vocalize a thought that it'd be nice if fuckers in the government stopped nicking stuff and actually did what they're nominally paid for.

If the government goes bad, and this is in place, You. Are. Fucked. Period.

(13-12-2012 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote: The problem for me, coming from a country where Bob Mugabe would *love* to have his hands of tech like this, is sure, it's all fine when things are going well. Can you imagine though if say you were the Resistance in WW2, and the Nazis (oh yes, I went there) could listen in on you like this ? No resistance movement can ever get organized. No resistance is possible. The secret police can collect you when you so much as vocalize a thought that it'd be nice if fuckers in the government stopped nicking stuff and actually did what they're nominally paid for.

If the government goes bad, and this is in place, You. Are. Fucked. Period.

If the Government goes bad they could use the police to great effect, we've gotta scrap the police. But what if they used healthcare services for involuntary euthanasia? We'll get rid of all healthcare too. They could defo use the army and any defence equipment so we'll abolish them too. Fuck it, we won't have a Government, that way they can never turn bad.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....BestFerdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.WorstFerdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.

(14-12-2012 04:04 PM)Hughsie Wrote: If the Government goes bad they could use the police to great effect, we've gotta scrap the police. But what if they used healthcare services for involuntary euthanasia? We'll get rid of all healthcare too. They could defo use the army and any defence equipment so we'll abolish them too. Fuck it, we won't have a Government, that way they can never turn bad.

Bit of a strawman answer there hughsie

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.

Not really. I'm responding to the idea that we should be against anything that can be misused by a corrupt Government. Just pointing out that the majority of the things we all take for granted and would never want to get rid of could be just as easily misused as surveillance devices, yet no-one suggests abolishing them.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....BestFerdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.WorstFerdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.

Not really. I'm responding to the idea that we should be against anything that can be misused by a corrupt Government. Just pointing out that the majority of the things we all take for granted and would never want to get rid of could be just as easily misused as surveillance devices, yet no-one suggests abolishing them.

It's OK, we've got guns.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

(14-12-2012 04:04 PM)Hughsie Wrote: If the Government goes bad they could use the police to great effect, we've gotta scrap the police. But what if they used healthcare services for involuntary euthanasia? We'll get rid of all healthcare too. They could defo use the army and any defence equipment so we'll abolish them too. Fuck it, we won't have a Government, that way they can never turn bad.

Mon ami, this is why this thing makes me uncomfortable. You are correct with the government using police army etc too. Bad governments throughout history have done this. This particular thing seems like a bit *too* much. It creates a situation where it's *too easy to stay on top*. I mean, look at any authoritarian regime so far - they manage without this and they do pretty well for themselves. *With* it, they could do even better. Maybe even manage to calcify society a la 1984. And there hasn't been shown to be a need IMO.

Training your citizens to accept invasive things like this is just a dicey idea, I think.

Would I be living in those cities, I would have a problem with this technology. I would probably stop using those bus companies and get myself a bike.
This is about principle. It is very invading.Cameras are everywhere already and we found our piece with it. And I actually think that cameras alone are very useful, in Buses, in Shops and Malls, in crowded places, in official places. Generally Cameras make a lot of sense in places where potentially a lot of bad stuff can happen unseen. When I talk about official places I mean also in the offices of people who work for the authorities> unemployment office, tax office, etc. Simply so those workers stop thinking that they can do what they want. And in those public authorities, in those offices I even think Microphones make sense. Simply for the fact that it is important for the people to be treated the way they deserve.

Now what reason would there be, for government or even the buscompany, to actually here what people talk on a bus? Again at the entrance and where the busdriver sits, the mic might make sense, just in case the driver gets threatened, so he has prove when the police comes. But for the rest of the bus normal cameras are not just cheaper they also make more sense. The busdriver knows what's going on in the bus (thinking about time when school is over and the kids are running around in the bus).
If someone is stupid enough to talk about their weed, or if someone thinks they should talk about stuff that might be embarrassing, there could always be a cop sitting right next to you, just not in his uniform. There could always be your neighbour right behind you and here about what you prefer in bed with your girlfriend. No need for cameras.

This obsession to check public out everywhere inside and outside their house is very invading and actually shows how much they are actually looking for crime. I don't say they should ignore crime, but this is actually looking for it, and trying to find it everywhere.

Now in the US they install those mic and cam things. In Germany your internetprovider stores all websites that you visited (I think for two years). Sure noone is really interested in the stuff that you, as an individual are doing or saying, but if they want to, they can find something about you that might get you in trouble. And that is what bothers me. The signs show that they want to find stuff that is illegal, and that they are actively, and unmasked, looking for it. I can think of several scenarios where you didn't do anything wrong, you are not guilty of anything, but someone can make a case out of nothing, just from all the footage that might be out there.

Don't I have a right to privacy?
I never did anything, but the police can show up with a paper and start looking through my stuff, they may take my computer to check it, they may go to my internetprovider and ask for my internetactivity (hello??).
I am waiting for the day when shops start installing security cams in the cabins where you try on clothes and on the fucking toilet.
You are basically by default a terrorist.

The money spent on these eavesdropping devices should be cut from the budget in order to reduce the deficit. Any crimes foiled or solved from these would not pay for the cost to administer the program. As a law abiding citizen, I don't want to feel like I'm always being watched. I don't deserve it.

It seems that most of your post can be summed up by that sentence and I'm sorry but it is the single worst argument ever in these situations and it's also the single most used one.

When people start talking about the 'principle' of an idea it generally means they don't like the idea but can't thing of any rational legitimate concerns to fight it with so this becomes the default position, and it doesn't really mean anything at all.

(15-12-2012 11:37 PM)Humanist11 Wrote: As a law abiding citizen, I don't want to feel like I'm always being watched. I don't deserve it.

Sorry but another terrible criticism. You might know you're law abiding but how does anyone else? How do you know I am? You can't. The point is these sort of devices are partly for differentiating between law abiding citizens and law breaking citizens. It's impossible to only use them against law breakers.

I'd also like to ask that, as a law abiding citizen, exactly what detriment is it to you to have these sort of devices in public places?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....BestFerdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.WorstFerdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.