I think that people are reading too much into Pope Francis's statement. Nowhere does he say Atheists are definitely going to heaven, but merely that Christ died for them so they might be. Everyone is redeemed by Christ's death, but that doesn't mean all will choose to accept God's love in the end.

I don't see the cause for alarm. He's simply encouraging people to do good, no matter what they believe. As an atheist, you might have a sincere longing to believe, but you simply cannot believe. Even so, you should pursue goodness.

H.H. Pope Francis is not saying that baptism is null and void, or that it's okay not to pursue God. He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good. Perhaps in adopting this view, an atheist will feel encouraged to take action, and that action will lead him closer to God.

There are most likely atheists in this world who are much closer to God than I am. We certainly cannot peer into the inner conscience of every single person in the world. God can (and, I believe, does) save those outside of the visible Church based on their own circumstances and the content of their hearts.

Once we have found The Truth, we cannot reject it without rejecting our own salvation! But, for those who have not yet found it, or struggle with it, they should not be discouraged, H.H. Pope Francis is saying. He's not supporting atheism, he's not making membership in the Church optional, he's just giving hope to all who struggle for good in this life.

The grace of Christ is offered to all men and women and it does touch all people each in his or hers own unique way so that even an atheist has an opportunity to accept God's stirrings and do something good. This does not, however, mean that Pope Francis said that these atheists are saved only that the Redemption touches the entire human race insofar as Christ died for each of us.

I don't see the cause for alarm. He's simply encouraging people to do good, no matter what they believe. As an atheist, you might have a sincere longing to believe, but you simply cannot believe. Even so, you should pursue goodness.

H.H. Pope Francis is not saying that baptism is null and void, or that it's okay not to pursue God. He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good. Perhaps in adopting this view, an atheist will feel encouraged to take action, and that action will lead him closer to God.

There are most likely atheists in this world who are much closer to God than I am. We certainly cannot peer into the inner conscience of every single person in the world. God can (and, I believe, does) save those outside of the visible Church based on their own circumstances and the content of their hearts.

Once we have found The Truth, we cannot reject it without rejecting our own salvation! But, for those who have not yet found it, or struggle with it, they should not be discouraged, H.H. Pope Francis is saying. He's not supporting atheism, he's not making membership in the Church optional, he's just giving hope to all who struggle for good in this life.

"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me. He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists. It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God. It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.

"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me. He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists. It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God. It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.

he is saying that the atheist should do his best 'to do good' and that is a common ground to meet each other on, which, of course, presupposes grace. Thus, by commiting himself to do good he surely has the opportunity to encounter God and from there perhaps God will lead him further, but Pope Francis is encouraging the atheist to at least make this first step.

"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me. He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists. It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God. It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.

he is saying that the atheist should do his best 'to do good' and that is a common ground to meet each other on, which, of course, presupposes grace. Thus, by commiting himself to do good he surely has the opportunity to encounter God and from there perhaps God will lead him further, but Pope Francis is encouraging the atheist to at least make this first step.

"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me. He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists. It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God. It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.

he is saying that the atheist should do his best 'to do good' and that is a common ground to meet each other on, which, of course, presupposes grace. Thus, by commiting himself to do good he surely has the opportunity to encounter God and from there perhaps God will lead him further, but Pope Francis is encouraging the atheist to at least make this first step.

I think that atheists know God better than all of us. That's why so many of them absolutely hate him even though they "disbelieve" in Him. Ever notice how some of the people who we feel like we hate and despise the most are those closest to us who we love? Such as our family and friends? I imagine it is somewhat like that with the atheist and God. They are so disturbed by the fact that a loving God could allow there to be so much evil in the world or could be so absent from their lives that they reject Him altogether because the reality is unfathomable. I believe it was Fr. Seraphim Rose who said that true existential atheism that hates God is merely one of man's attempts to grapple with a God they have so much trouble understanding. It's a lot better than the cafeteria Christians who don't think about their beliefs at all or who totally detach themselves from all of the evil and dilemmas in the world in order to protect their faith bubble.

He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good.

No, he said "atheists." Not "theists with uncertainties." Atheists. People who actively disbelieve in God.

Someone who identifies as an "atheist" is not necessarily one who actively rejects God, although that's the classical definition. I think Pope Francis was using the term to describe a range of secular-minded people, from skeptics to agnostics to "hard" atheists. Richard Dawkins, who is in many ways a leader of the new atheist movement, argued in The God Delusion that few people fall into the latter category (believe that God does not exist); even he admits to a sort of "soft" atheism in which he does not believe in God based on the evidence he has but would be willing to change his mind in the future. I think most people who identify as "atheist" fall into that category. Few would be so bold as to say "there is no God," period.

At any rate, he wasn't talking in academic context, where his words needed to be precise. Although I'm sure he'd encourage people with strong disbelief to also pursue good.

I think it helps and gives courage to those who have been influenced by the belief in an unloving God. Many atheists reject God based on a false understanding of Him. This kind of people don't need further indoctrination, but a little bit of love to help them see the light.

I believe he is just stating in an informal way the very orthodox belief that the law of God is inscribed in everybody's heart.

And that even unbelievers may follow it - although with more difficulty to understand the full scope of what they are doing.

Or in other words, that we know where the Church is and where the Church is not, and we know who is in the Church and who is not *but* we don't know who will be thrown away and who will be called in after Judgment Day.

Salvation is in the Church only, but not everybody who is in will remain in, not everybody who is out will remain out. Some of those who are currently out and will be in may very well be atheists who, in contradiction with their own belief, still loved their neighbors as themselves and God above everything else, even if they call God by His other names: truth, life and meaning of life.

That to discern these things without a proper Orthodox Christian cosmological vision makes everything far more difficult is the reason why announcing the Gospel to them is still extremely important. So many atheists start well with some concern for those around them and ended supporting genocidical regimes, or just becoming sour cynical people who don't believe - and therefore can't love - even their neighbors.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 07:41:04 AM by Fabio Leite »

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Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

I think that atheists know God better than all of us. That's why so many of them absolutely hate him even though they "disbelieve" in Him. Ever notice how some of the people who we feel like we hate and despise the most are those closest to us who we love? Such as our family and friends? I imagine it is somewhat like that with the atheist and God. They are so disturbed by the fact that a loving God could allow there to be so much evil in the world or could be so absent from their lives that they reject Him altogether because the reality is unfathomable. I believe it was Fr. Seraphim Rose who said that true existential atheism that hates God is merely one of man's attempts to grapple with a God they have so much trouble understanding. It's a lot better than the cafeteria Christians who don't think about their beliefs at all or who totally detach themselves from all of the evil and dilemmas in the world in order to protect their faith bubble.

Yeah it seems to me that fundie atheists are more obsessed with God then we are. And some are even Bible worshippers too.

But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

Yeah it seems to me that fundie atheists are more obsessed with God then we are. And some are even Bible worshippers too.

This is funny because it is so true. A friend of mine is an atheist blogger and he is unbelieveable prolific in his writings on God and religion. I think he thinks about God more than just about any Christian I know.

Christ redeemed the entire Creation from death. Salvation is salvation from hell.

Christ's work had the final objective of uniting human nature with divine nature.

The trouble is that before that happened, human nature had fallen, causing death. Well, something that will eventually be destroyed will not be united to something that is eternal. So He had to heal this destroying death.

Once death is destroyed by His own death and resurrection, we are all, literally, imortals in the sense that although we die for this "crude matter", we as persons, somehow survive that partial destruction and will eventually be resurrected.

Now, after resurrection, we will be in the very presence of God, in the fullness of His Glory. We won't be able to pretend to be or pretend to believe we are not what we with deep love and obstinance had chosen to be. His Love will be all around us. Those whose life was a lie, a living hell will no longer be able to hide that. That is hell, and accepting truth in our life as soon as possible is salvation from that.

So we have salvation from hell that is participation in the whole truth. The whole truth includes God, God's real character and nature, and that's what makes it more difficult the more one is away from the Orthodox Church (the visible, manifest, undivided Body of Christ).

But one may have contact with truth in lesser manifestations as true morality, true knowledge, true beauty, true justice and true love of what is true.

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Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

So, summing up, I believe the Orthodox faith is that we have universal salvation from death and conditional salvation from hell.

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Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

I especially liked this paragraph."The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption, not its cause, and salvation is also another possibility because of that redemption. Someone may be redeemed and not be saved. Someone may be redeemed and not do good. Someone may also be redeemed, do good and yet not be saved."

I especially liked this paragraph."The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption, not its cause, and salvation is also another possibility because of that redemption. Someone may be redeemed and not be saved. Someone may be redeemed and not do good. Someone may also be redeemed, do good and yet not be saved."

Thanks Dpaula, that is a very good article on it. His comments below the article also give a good explanation of what the Pope likely meant by the sentence I was concerned about. The Pope was not referencing meeting in heaven, he was talking about meeting one another doing good.

Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP

This is news?

THE Church has proclaimed this since the beginning. Redemption and salvation ain't the same.

One of the great challenges of the day is to tell people what Christianity actually teaches rather than to allow them to believe what they think it teaches. Such statements as the Pope made here aren’t radical, but they don’t fit the narrative about Catholicism that many have made in their minds.

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Why not? For the most part it is a barely legal news aggregator from what I understand. A lot of "their content" is just aggregated material with enough "original" work to not be tied up in lawsuits all the time.

Someone needs to remind Pope Francis that works alone will not get you into Heaven. There are too many verses in Scripture to mention that implies that works are the manifestation of Faith. St. James stated that Faith alone without works is dead. I say works alone with out faith is definity dead.

Come on guys, stop being so gullible. There's a modernist pope and he's more or less a Universalist with extremely weak ecclesiology. I get it, if you ignore half of what he said and make some logical leaps you can arrive at an interpretation of his remarks that is almost Orthodox. But why would you?

« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 06:41:21 PM by William »

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Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

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"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

While I do think it wasn't the most prudent choice of words on the part of the Holy Father, the title of this thread and the interpretation by HuffPo and other such rags is incorrect. Pope Francis has a tendency to speak off the cuff in his homilies. I like it because his homilies are usually pretty good and I am scared to death of it at the same time because it is easy for something to come out the wrong way when you preach in that manner. I think he is still learning to be Pope and coming to grips with the idea that everything he says will be dissected all over the world. Pope Benedict had some things happen early in his pontificate which were taken out of context as well during unscripted comments. He didn't go off the script much at all for the remainder of his pontificate. At some point, Pope Francis will likely do the same.

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.

I do not think that Pope Francis will attempt to push any reform through officially. Rather, I think that he wants to call RCs and others towards a deeper relationship with Christ through orthopraxis and service.

The moment that really warmed me up to Pope Francis was his off the cuff embrace of a disabled boy; it's particular poignant for those of us who have disabled family members who are all too often marginalized and neglected by society.