1800 kids killed is extremely sad, I agree completely. I am allso very much sadened by the unknown number of Iraquis who died as a result of this situation.

However, what sadens me perhaps even more is that a larger number then 1800 voluntarily signed up; either willing to get paid in exchange for shooting at others or desprate enough to see the need to get paid in exchange for the chance to die (depending on what side you look from).

Those kids weren't born with the idea that it'd be nice to run around in a desert, away from family, friends and lovers, holding a rifle and fearing for their life. Somebody convinced them this was a good idea.

Most Iraqi soldiers were probably drafted in order to kill enemies, the U.S. soldiers are somehow in a situatuon where it makes sense for them to get paid to kill and the irqi militias (or terrorist if you wish) see no other way out then killing. That that situation exists is a sad to me as the fact that people die.

If you look at normal people fighting you start to notice something; they hit for the hard boney areas and fights last quite long. They don't hit the kidneys, throat, twist necks or throw kicks to the temple in short fights unless cornered. You need to train (or re-educate) people to get rid of the subconcious tendency to use fights only to demonstrate dominance and keep their opponent alive._________________Kassen

Most Iraqi soldiers were probably drafted in order to kill enemies, the U.S. soldiers are somehow in a situatuon where it makes sense for them to get paid to kill and the irqi militias (or terrorist if you wish) see no other way out then killing. That that situation exists is a sad to me as the fact that people die.

Good points, but there is a lot to be said about who the US kids are. The situation in the US is a bit special. In fact, for a lot of poor people the Army and Navy etc. are merely about jobs and income. The ususal propaganda.. "do your duty for the vaterland - support the reich-fight for world peace/lebensraum/whatever" is also still just as effective in the US as it was in germany, France, The British Empire etc. Apart from the kids who don´t really have a choice, the rest are fairly motivated and pretty sure they are doing the right thing. If they didn´t quite believe the propaganda from the outset, most will be fairly effectively brainwashed when the initial training is over.

The National Geographic Channel is sending the "Truth About Killing" series in Europe now. I recommend you guys check out that one. It tells about how the military has learnt the lesson from WW2 and has now figured out how to make professional killers out of all of us._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

as I already posted elsewhere I urge everybody to not forget other genocides happened during the XXth century:

Quote:

A Man-Made Famine raged through Ukraine, the ethnic-Ukrainian region of northern Caucasus, and the lower Volga River region in 1932-33. This resulted in the death of between 7 to 10 million people, mainly Ukrainians. This was instigated by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and his henchman Lazar Kaganovich. The main goal of this artificial famine was to break the spirit of the Ukrainian farmer/peasant and to force them into collectivization. The famine was also used as an effective tool to break the renaissance of Ukrainian culture that was occuring under approval of the communist government in Ukraine.

last year me and my wife adopted our son Jarik there so I documented myself about that country.
Of course I do not have anything against holocaust memorials._________________homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:

Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex - Frank Zappa

Last edited by seraph on Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

You need to train (or re-educate) people to get rid of the subconcious tendency to use fights only to demonstrate dominance and keep their opponent alive.

You kill food.
Enemies are to be dominated.

I guess you have already seen that those documentaries on NGC?_________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Those kids weren't born with the idea that it'd be nice to run around in a desert, away from family, friends and lovers, holding a rifle and fearing for their life. Somebody convinced them this was a good idea.

Well.. and then some people write songs about these complex issues, often in surprising ways Peter Hammill - No More ( The Sub-mariner ) ( I guess they don´t have a Peter Hammill in the US The closest they ever got was probably Bob Dylan? )_________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Good points, but there is a lot to be said about who the US kids are. The situation in the US is a bit special. In fact, for a lot of poor people the Army and Navy etc. are merely about jobs and income. The ususal propaganda.. "do your duty for the vaterland - support the reich-fight for world peace/lebensraum/whatever" is also still just as effective in the US as it was in germany, France, The British Empire etc. Apart from the kids who don´t really have a choice, the rest are fairly motivated and pretty sure they are doing the right thing. If they didn´t quite believe the propaganda from the outset, most will be fairly effectively brainwashed when the initial training is over.

Yeah, that's what I tried to point out. I don't blame those kids, I blame the state of society that created them.

The problem with the brainwashing is that it leaves traces and side effects. The torture and humilition videos that poped up where U.S. soldiers apeared unable to relate to their prisoners as fellow human beings in situations quite similar to their own is one thing. Another we saw with the Vietnam veterans often being unable to get back to society in a normal way. Many of these kids will grow to be adults in the coming decade. They will be traumatised by the things they've seen and done and on some level they will still have the idea that killing people is a reasonable solution to problems.

Once Iraq changes from a sworn enemy (we have always been at war with oceania, estasia has always been our alie!) to a stalward ally once again their neighbours will look at them as war criminals and they will realise they were tricked. I saw a documentary on the Vietman veterans that returned after that war afew years back. Just imagine being in that position.

I can't speak for anybody else and hopefully some of them will come back to lead normal happy lives but I think I'd personally prefer to be amongst those 1800 over that. I think they typically die raltively short deaths while still believing they are doing something worthwhile._________________Kassen

1800 americans die. It's sad, but the attention this gets when so much of the world cannot even get enough to eat make me sick.

Indeed, in news reporting it apears that how sad a catastrophy is depends not on how many people it affects but on the sum worth of the people it affects.

Luckily this has one side effect in this situation; I don't think that if Iraqi casualties would increase by a order of magintude it'd affect the media situation that heavily but if the U.S. casualties were to double that would probably force the powers that be to look for a more peacefull solution.

I don't understand why they don't look ahead, see that the present cource of invading sovereign nations, then torturing, raping and killing the inhabitants while threatning to invade The Hague if the offenders would be brought before the international court there will cost them the respect of all other nations and the support fromt he taxpaiers and voters and change their cource before this happens. It's not rocket science._________________Kassen

They will be traumatised by the things they've seen and done and on some level they will still have the idea that killing people is a reasonable solution to problems.

Interestingly enough, even though many vietnam war vets have later turned killers or violent maniacs, this is partly a myth. Most of the "vets in serious trouble" mainly destroyed their own lives. That of course does not make anything "better"._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Again, not rocket science, but does it ring a bell if I say "They were pawns of the State"?

These people didn´t do this to themselves. You need a strong State in order to construct the framwork that makes modern warfare possible. In case some might feel they identify strongly with the "Nation and the flag and the will of the leadership" then I guess they can just line up here in front of me and I can then point my finger at them and say" These people did it too!" Clearly not rocket science, but I guess it will do just fine for today._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

Yes, 80, and that's why I don't blame those soldiers though I do think that the ones that were involved in those torture situations should be institutionalised in the hope that they can be brought back to a more civilised frame of mind.

I am however very concerned about the people that order the soldiers. Here is a nation known for being the only nation to ever drop a attom bomb, that used agent orange in Vietnam, that trained al-quida, who's very foundation is build on the genocide of the original inhabitants of the land they live on and IT THREATENED TO INVADE MY HOMETOWN if one of it's soldiers was ever brought to justice.

The U.S. warmachine reacts to rumours of threats in exactly the same way as they do to the posibility of facing a court; threatning to invade. The Hague is not some barbaric little town known for making poison gas; it holds a highly respected court that caries the burden of trying to bring alledged war criminals such as Milosovich to justice and the U.S. threatnend to invade. This is why I identify strongly with the Iraqi civilians. I know it's wrong but I can't guarantee that when it's not Iraq being invaded for fear of biological weapons but it's The Hague that's being invaded in fear of justice I would be moraly strong enough not to do as they do and take up arms and return fire._________________Kassen

I am however very concerned about the people that order the soldiers. Here is a nation known for being the only nation to ever drop a attom bomb, that used agent orange in Vietnam, that trained al-quida, who's very foundation is build on the genocide of the original inhabitants of the land they live on and IT THREATENED TO INVADE MY HOMETOWN if one of it's soldiers was ever brought to justice.

For some reason the US seemingly is tortured by some weird form of alienation. Clearly it wasn´t the will of the citizens of the US to take out Hiroshima or Nagasaki, mess up South America, release Agent Orange in Vietnam, taking the UK Bomber Command´s "area bombing" concept even further or threathening to invade a section of the European Union. I am still interested in seeing WHEN the US public takes action and elects a leadership that at least attempts to behave in a fairly decent manner. This can be argued, but at least I think I see that Germany has as a nation seriosuly considered its past and invested a lot of deep thinking into getting it right this time. Even the UK has changed its ways. It is no longer an evil Empire. And you guys in Holland don´t do trade in the slave business any more I take it? Right? Norwegians aren´t raping and pillaging much these days? It is possible to make big changes._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

We are suffering from similar problems to the U.S. in that there is hardly any relation bwetween what the government does and what the people want and so a similar situation could conceivably arrise. If they can shove the euro down our throat then they can probably shove human rights violations and unprovoced attacks on sovereign states down our throat too.

Our prime minister agrees with Bush which surveys tell causes embarasment to the gross majority of the Dutrch people. I saw tanks and other armoured military vehicles roll down the downtown streets here during restless periods. Our prime minister would probably be delighted to order the Dutch army to suport the U.S. invasion here like he was glowing with pride when allowed to shake Bush's hand. The Dutch army is not above situations in which officers force soldiers to participate in group rapes of civilians. A infamous film of photos that documented genocide was "lost" in a dutch military lab.

The people learned something, the government learned nothing. If push would come to shove we'd be f***ed. At least the Iraqi military made a atempt to defend it's civilians against the U.S.; the Dutch military would never do this. They are basically reserve troops for the U.S.._________________Kassen

I don't condemn the American solders. I know a few personally. They are great kids. Most don't join up for the money (they don't get very much), they do it because they love their country and want to due their duty. This is true for most people that voluntarily join their country's military service. I'm sure this is also true of the Iraqi's that are joining the new government's army there, and of the insurgents that are trageting them with bombs.

It's easy to condemn and to blame. It doesn't do much though but generate more bad feelings and anger. One can't separate oneself from humanity - that is an illusion - we are really one. We built and dropped the A bomb. We started WWII and we committed the great atrosities. We hijacked the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center. We also did the great heroic things too. The illusion of separation is what it the basis of evil.

If one says it's sad that 1800 American soldiers got killed, it does not dismiss or diminish other people who have died or are dying. It doesn't imply indifference to the thousands of uncounted Iraqi's that have died._________________--Howard
my music and other stuff

IT THREATENED TO INVADE MY HOMETOWN if one of it's soldiers was ever brought to justice.

I was reading the dialogue between Kassen and 80 will increasing puzzlement about these allegations of the American threat of invasion of The Hague. Having done a little research on the web, it seems that coverage of the American Servicemembers Protection Act is somewhat smaller in the UK than in the Netherlands. Doing a search on BBC News turned up only one article that referred to it, and then only in passing as part of another story. Bad BBC News!!

I have to say I think the chances of the US invading the Netherlands is pretty slim. Even Bush's administration has discovered its need for allies.

If it did ever happen, Kassen, I apologise in advance for any British soldiers taking part. What a horrible thought._________________This message was brought to you from Beyond The Grave.

I don't condemn the American solders. I know a few personally. They are great kids. Most don't join up for the money (they don't get very much), they do it because they love their country and want to due their duty. This is true for most people that voluntarily join their country's military service. I'm sure this is also true of the Iraqi's that are joining the new government's army there, and of the insurgents that are trageting them with bombs.

Notice Elektro80 and me didn't blame U.S. soldiers, we spend quite some time discussing the psychological factors involved. I think I can praise them for this willingness and feeling of responcibility in doing their duty and feeling love for their country while also lamenting that these emoitions make them end up throwing clusterbombs in civilian areas through a unfortunate chain of cause and effect.

Generally I try to seperate what people do and what their intentions are; here I have no doubt that the gross majority of U.S. soldiers has good intentions and I judge them based on that but the sad truth is that they are also engaged in things I would rather not see happen. Families are being split up ancient cities are being destroyed and through the trampeling of the Geneva convention part of the progress in trying to civilising the world is being set back. Yes; it's marvelous that these young men and women are feeling so responcible for their country but personally I'd rahter see them express this through volunteering to help the elderly or the disabled.

Quote:

It's easy to condemn and to blame. It doesn't do much though but generate more bad feelings and anger. One can't separate oneself from humanity - that is an illusion - we are really one. We built and dropped the A bomb. We started WWII and we committed the great atrosities. We hijacked the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center. We also did the great heroic things too. The illusion of separation is what it the basis of evil.

Well, yes. The stanford prison experiment and other similar experiments prooved that indeed these horrible acts could be perpertraded by any one of us. This is why, when I condemn I do not condemn the people themselves as persons. I do however feel the need to be vocally oposed to the acts. I am opposed to crashing planes into buildings and I am opposed to people dropping clusterbombs on civilian areas.

In adition to this, due to being scared, being affraid I too may be tortured, raped, locked up indefinately without process or ripped in half by indiscriminate bombing I speak out against the U.S. thread to invade The Hague. This, I admit, is selfish; my life and wellbeing are worth no more then that of a iraqi civilian or that of a U.S. soldier from a objective point of view. However from my own perspective the matter seems much more pressing when it's my own life that's on the line. Have a look at this;
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/08/aspa080302.htm

This scares me and many with me. We may realy be one, as you write, but with regard to this situation this matters little to me myself on a practical level. Those other people whom I realise are just like me have clusterbombs and a aparent desire or willingness to sprinkle those liberally and indiscriminately. I also realise that if the tables were turned I too may well be brainwashed to obey orders which may include rape and murder; chances are I would obey as the experiments mentioned above indicate.

This isn't the case at the moment though; I'm not the one holding the bombs and my own sense of responcibility means I help people who fall on the street back up and so on. It doesn't make me join the military. I am on the ground here in a city targeted for invasion and this makes the whole idea that we are all the same look decidedly different and so I tend to identify with other people in other cities also targeted by the same group. I can't stress this enough since it formed my perspcetive. Please realise I am right now, not in some metaphysical sense but physically, sitting in a city, the city where I live and it's been targeted for invasion by a army that is currently engaged in indiscriminate bombing and the rape and torture of prisoners entitled to courts and medical care. Yes, they join because of a love for their country some of them end up taking pictures because of a now formed pride in the destruction and humiliation they cause.

This is not some abstract phylosophical debate to me. I AM SCARED.
There is a list of targets. I am on it and many others on it were already raped, traumatized, mutilated or killed.

Yes, we are all the same, but I'd greatly prefer to be the same with all of my limbs in place and a freedom to go where I choose.

Quote:

If one says it's sad that 1800 American soldiers got killed, it does not dismiss or diminish other people who have died or are dying. It doesn't imply indifference to the thousands of uncounted Iraqi's that have died.

This is true. But when General Tommy Franks of the US Central Command says “We don’t do body counts” about the deaths on the Iraq side I strongly get the impression that he *is* indifferent to the tens of thousands of iraqi deaths. It's not your aditude that wories me, it's his. Fortunately some people are trying to keep count;

Those people only count the deaths that are the direct responcibility of the ocupying force under the Geneva convention and of those only the ones reprted on in multiple reputable news sources.It currently holds this number between 23456 and 26559.

If we realy want to look at this situation from a perspective of all people being the same, the least we can do is take a rough average of these, say 25000 and add to that the U.S. deaths, getting 26800. [edit; I corrected my math; a typo that is currently bringing tears to my eyes and a lump to my throat made me off by ten thousand. I need to take a shower and stay out of this thread because it's too much for me now.]

I propose we mourn the 26800 deaths instead of just the Amreicans. I, in private, will also hope and pray for my own life in a blatand display of selfishness._________________KassenLast edited by Kassen on Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:06 am; edited 1 time in total

it seems that coverage of the American Servicemembers Protection Act is somewhat smaller in the UK than in the Netherlands.

I suppose that being the potential target of the U.S. warmachine changes your perspective rather quickly. I imagine the Iraqi news broadcasts deal with the invasion and ocupation of that country more then the Dutch, U.K or U.S. broadcasts in more detail too. I bet your reports ont he london bombings were in more detail then ours too.

We are all the same and all selfish to some degree. I admit that dirt in my mouse often seems a more pressing issue to me then mountians of debris across the world. You can try to be as aware as possible but by then, considdering the current state of the world, you must also start to fear for getting quite depressed and disilusioned.

Out of a sense of solidarity I tried to keep track of the situation in Bagdad but my source of news was acidentally bombed, then the convoy that evacuated was accidentally straffed._________________Kassen

your work here as "agent provocateur" is great Keep it up and make sure to hide those Vermeer paintings you have at Mauritshuis Museum before the invasion _________________homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:

Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex - Frank Zappa

your work here as "agent provocateur" is great Keep it up and make sure to hide those Vermeer paintings you have at Mauritshuis Museum before the invasion

Agent provocateur? I don't want to provoke anyone, just give my perspective. I think they are gone again but there actually were tanks in downtown The Hague. I was on a sort of date and I saw tanks drive through the iner city near the government buildings. I think their purpose was to persuade people not to spontaniously protest near the government buildings or perhaps the U.S. embasy which is close to there. This made a big impression on me; it's one of those things I always thought only happened in "other countries". Sure I had seen military police used to stop soccer riots on television but that's a different matter from pre-emptively using military vehicles as a threat to your own people. This scares the hell out of me. I'm not trying to provoke, I'm expressing my feelings. Perhaps in Italy it's routine to see tanks in the street and nobody minds them. Not so here, and not for me. The local police here is actually known for being quite tollerant and willing to negotiate; unless you are realy insisting on causing a lot of damage they won't even use military police so pre-empttive tanks make a impression on me.

About the Maurits huis; I suppose you are refering to the Baghdad museum where the collection of Sumerian art was plundered? I have some confidence that if push comes to shove those paintings would be rescued by the staff. The plundering of that museum and the aparent lack of concern displayed by both the Iraqi authorities and the U.S. soldiers was one of the things that made me very sad. After reading Snowcrash Sumerian culture became a bit of a pet interest of mine. Fortunately most of the collection was returned. I can think of few stages in human history that are as important as the rise of the Sumerians since that marked the beginning of agricultural society as well as many other important concepts. Losing that side of our history would be a catastrophe in my opinion._________________Kassen

I must confess I was not aware of the Serviceman Protection Act or it's provision to invade The Hague in order to liberate Americans that are held pending trial for war crimes. Thanks for posting that link.

This is preposterous! I am going to write my congressman and senators and ask then to remove this provision which seems senselessly provocative at best. The World Court happens to be located in The Netherlands like the UN happens to be located in the United States. I would imagine there would be a huge uproar here if China passed a law authorizing their Central Committee to invade the United States in case a Chinese solder was detained by UN peace keeping force. This act has received precious little attention in the US media.

I understand your fear being a resident of a city specifically targeted in an act of the US Congress. I agree with Dovdimus Prime that the likelyhood of this invasion is low, but we've all seen the US government do some very unlikely and terrible things in the past. Since the US/British invasion of Iraq was not authorized by any legit international body and the alleged justification appears to have been fabricated, there is a credible case that the current war in Iraq is indeed a criminal one. I can see why Bush sees the World Court as a personal threat to him.

When I visit The Netherlands or Canada, people seem surprised when I say it feels great to be in a free country. Kassen, one's fear of Bush and his self-righteous right-wing regime doesn't diminish when you live here.

Perhaps in Italy it's routine to see tanks in the street and nobody minds them

there is an Italian proverb that says: "Barking dog doesn't bite". Nowadays "juntas" around the world don't need tanks in the streets anymore, in fact I have not seen one in a long time _________________homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:

Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex - Frank Zappa

Last edited by seraph on Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total

Kassen is completely right about our previous discussion wasn´t much about blaming US american soldiers or even the US. Far from it. I am not exactly pleased by US forien policies since the 1860s, but that has nothing to do about the citizens of the US or its soldiers. I am not even convinced that the US leadersship is evil. Things are far more complex than that. As for the current situation in Iraq, it isn´t unlikely it would not have been very much different if a UN l task force has entered the country in order to liberate the people of Iraq It might however been far easier to convince the Iraqi people of the real intentions and this might have strengthened an internal Iraqi opposition against various groups of "terrorists". We might have seen a new normative state forming even before the electrions. Another question is how can we have some sort of international policing of human rights. "We let them take the jews, haven´t we learned anything from history?" Heard that one before? Too bad WW2 wasn´t about saving the jews anyway. But the idea is intruiging by itself. Why is it that there are still so many evil regimes around still? Cannot we do anything about these? This I think is however OT in this thread.

Invading the hague? What a silly idea but yet would not europeans expect that such threats, made by a regime that used lies in order to invade a country on the other side of the globe, to be more than just threats?

OT? Why not.. What we are seeing is in fact that one nation proves it is willing and capable to do whatever it says it will accomplish. Looking through the cool swashbucklig facade of such an image, what is this really? Isn´t this the very same strategy Hitler´s regime used prior to the invasion of Poland? Some of these "smaller and friendly" invasions were indeed labelled as peace keeping missions. And now the Teletubbies are acting the same way? Comforting? I don´t think so? If anything is destablizing for world peace, then this is it. This is what I call an unhealthy foreign policy.

But then things are very complex. For years I have been shocked by the fact that the world did let Saddam Hussein keep on doing business. The Shah of Iran was by the way in the same league. No wonder Iran exploded._________________A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

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