Vladimir79 wrote:Didn't Serbia have some S-300 missiles before the illegal NATO invasion?

Nope unfortunately those were just stories, I would be the happiest man if they were tru, but they werent...just myths...and the loses on their side would be greater if we had one, dont you agree?! XDWe would use it to destroy aircrafts and kubs and nevas to defend S-300...but nope...unfortunately! XD

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Nope unfortunately those were just stories, I would be the happiest man if they were tru, but they werent...just myths...and the loses on their side would be greater if we had one, dont you agree?! XDWe would use it to destroy aircrafts and kubs and nevas to defend S-300...but nope...unfortunately! XD

They had the missiles, they just couldn't get the radar components before the invasion. It was part of RFs defense strategy. It could have made all the difference.

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Nope unfortunately those were just stories, I would be the happiest man if they were tru, but they werent...just myths...and the loses on their side would be greater if we had one, dont you agree?! XDWe would use it to destroy aircrafts and kubs and nevas to defend S-300...but nope...unfortunately! XD

They had the missiles, they just couldn't get the radar components before the invasion. It was part of RFs defense strategy. It could have made all the difference.

Hell, they shot down an F117 with a Goa. An S-300 batallion would have ripped NATO to shreds.

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Nope unfortunately those were just stories, I would be the happiest man if they were tru, but they werent...just myths...and the loses on their side would be greater if we had one, dont you agree?! XDWe would use it to destroy aircrafts and kubs and nevas to defend S-300...but nope...unfortunately! XD

They had the missiles, they just couldn't get the radar components before the invasion. It was part of RFs defense strategy. It could have made all the difference.

Hell, they shot down an F117 with a Goa. An S-300 batallion would have ripped NATO to shreds.

Exactly...and no, we didnt have the missiles Vladislav, I know some ppl from our PVO and we didnt have them, because if we did we would have bought the radar after the war at least to secure ourselves!

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Nope unfortunately those were just stories, I would be the happiest man if they were tru, but they werent...just myths...and the loses on their side would be greater if we had one, dont you agree?! XDWe would use it to destroy aircrafts and kubs and nevas to defend S-300...but nope...unfortunately! XD

They had the missiles, they just couldn't get the radar components before the invasion. It was part of RFs defense strategy. It could have made all the difference.

Sorry for interruption here but I just remembered the story about S-300 and the article that some of you maybe find as interesting, although have no idea how accurate it is.

Russia supplied surface to air missile equipment to Serbia before the start of the Nato bombing campaign when a United Nations arms embargo was in force, defence experts claimed today.

Between six and 10 S-300PM missile systems were transported into Serbia without Nato's knowledge, according to a report in Jane's Defence Weekly.

But the missiles were not used to shoot down allied planes because they arrived incomplete, while Nato bombing further disturbed deliveries, the report said.

The claims follow the revelation that General Sir Michael Jackson, commander of the K-For peacekeeping force, refused an order by Nato's supreme commander, General Wesley Clarke, to send in forces to confront Russian paratroopers who had raced to Pristina airport ahead of Nato-led forces on June 12. There has been speculation in military circles that one of the reasons the Russians were determined to beat Nato to Pristina airfield was to protect the hidden weapons systems stored there in bunkers.

But Russia has categorically denied supplying weapons to the Serb regime in contravention of the UN embargo. A Russian embassy official in London told the defence weekly: "The Russian government denies any violation of international norms, especially in respect of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Allegations of arms smuggling are without foundation."

The Russian arms export agency, Rosvoorouzhenie, also denied the claims.

The report quotes a high-ranking Serbian officer as saying the first shipment of between six and 10 incomplete S-300PM systems entered Serbia by land, hidden in railway wagons carrying scrap iron, in early 1999.

Sources said an unspecified quantity of the missile systems was smuggled into the country in a Russian humanitarian convoy, hidden in what appeared to be fuel tankers.

Serbian engineers had already been working on plans to make the missile systems at least partly operational with a live test scheduled for May 30. But Nato aircraft detected radar emissions from the launch site and destroyed the test systems with an F-16 missile.

The report said the remaining systems were withdrawn to underground tunnels in Rakovica, south of Belgrade.

A journal spokesman, Paul Beaver, said: "The equipment was in place but we think it was destroyed before the end of May."

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Nope unfortunately those were just stories, I would be the happiest man if they were tru, but they werent...just myths...and the loses on their side would be greater if we had one, dont you agree?! XDWe would use it to destroy aircrafts and kubs and nevas to defend S-300...but nope...unfortunately! XD

They had the missiles, they just couldn't get the radar components before the invasion. It was part of RFs defense strategy. It could have made all the difference.

Sorry for interruption here but I just remembered the story about S-300 and the article that some of you maybe find as interesting, although have no idea how accurate it is.

Russia supplied surface to air missile equipment to Serbia before the start of the Nato bombing campaign when a United Nations arms embargo was in force, defence experts claimed today.

Between six and 10 S-300PM missile systems were transported into Serbia without Nato's knowledge, according to a report in Jane's Defence Weekly.

But the missiles were not used to shoot down allied planes because they arrived incomplete, while Nato bombing further disturbed deliveries, the report said.

The claims follow the revelation that General Sir Michael Jackson, commander of the K-For peacekeeping force, refused an order by Nato's supreme commander, General Wesley Clarke, to send in forces to confront Russian paratroopers who had raced to Pristina airport ahead of Nato-led forces on June 12. There has been speculation in military circles that one of the reasons the Russians were determined to beat Nato to Pristina airfield was to protect the hidden weapons systems stored there in bunkers.

But Russia has categorically denied supplying weapons to the Serb regime in contravention of the UN embargo. A Russian embassy official in London told the defence weekly: "The Russian government denies any violation of international norms, especially in respect of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Allegations of arms smuggling are without foundation."

The Russian arms export agency, Rosvoorouzhenie, also denied the claims.

The report quotes a high-ranking Serbian officer as saying the first shipment of between six and 10 incomplete S-300PM systems entered Serbia by land, hidden in railway wagons carrying scrap iron, in early 1999.

Sources said an unspecified quantity of the missile systems was smuggled into the country in a Russian humanitarian convoy, hidden in what appeared to be fuel tankers.

Serbian engineers had already been working on plans to make the missile systems at least partly operational with a live test scheduled for May 30. But Nato aircraft detected radar emissions from the launch site and destroyed the test systems with an F-16 missile.

The report said the remaining systems were withdrawn to underground tunnels in Rakovica, south of Belgrade.

A journal spokesman, Paul Beaver, said: "The equipment was in place but we think it was destroyed before the end of May."

Thats just to justify their loses, because if we had so many systems...there would be at least 200 confirmed kills...not just 40-50! Actually they admitted we destroyed only 2 aircraft, because only they fell on our territory so they couldnt deny it! My cousin lives in Republika Srpska, he said that 2 of our planes fell there and more than 14 of theirs...plus those that fell in Croatia,Albania and Hungary!But if we had only 10 launchers and necesary radars, there would be at least 20 more, we would have hit them earlier before entering or at the entering of our airspace and they would have fell on our territory...so any allegations that we had S-300 arent true, because if we had them, they would reconcider attacking us at all!Anyway, when you look at their reports, they say that only Kub and S-125 were launched at them, and in some cases S-75 (plus the MANPADS)! Trust me, my greatest wish is for Serbia to have a lot of S-300PMU2 "Favorit" systems, that would make me happy, that and meeting Putin and Medvedev, that would be awesome too! XD

I think that was a minor exaggeration. You can't just get an SA-10 system in pieces and expect to be able to put it together and use it efficiently straight away... you need training and practise, and you need to properly integrate it into your air defence network.

Of course GarryB ,what you say is totally shareable, level of professionalism and proficiency of human operators of complex systems like SAM systems (even more in complex scenarios against an advanced enemy) is one of the most crucial and deciding factor on actual conflicts.The commander in chief of US Air Forces in Europe ,General John P. Jumper, had received detailed notices that Serbia had attempted to obtain from Russia modern air defence systems,among which S-300PMU1, and some modernized versions of its existing SAMs since several years and that some serbian SAM crews operatives was selected to receive technical training, from russian operators,for the hypothetical deal much before the beginning of the Kosovo conflict.The importance of professionalism and technical preparation of SAM crew was proved just in this conflict ,when the very deadly 3rd battery of 250 missile brigade commanded by Colonel Zoltan Dani destroyed : one F-117 ,an F-16,damaged another F-117 beyond any repair and downed several UAVs.

More importantly even if you got it working properly and it shot down 30 NATO aircraft... would that bring NATO to the negotiating table asking for peace, or would the rules of war change and suddenly anything that can be bombed in Serbia will be bombed? "

Of course a single SAM battery don't have the capabilities to change the results of a conflict against an entire coalition of advanced nations ,but can change drammatically the equilibrium at a tactical level and increase enormously the attrition rate among NATO aircraft ,a factor capable to deeply influence the political will to continue the operation in front of the reactions of theirs internal public opinion.

In Kosovo war pratically the serbian SAM menace remained almost intact and operative up to the end of the conflict ; NATO aircraft was ,of course, almost always capable to "avoid" the dangers posed by those largely outdated AD systems ,capitalizing theirs limited features .The bulk of serbian air defence,infact, was composed by export versions of SA-3 "GOA" and SA-6 "Kub" ,the first had the altitude limit to reach NATO aircraft but was a fixed system with 22-23 km of maximum engagement range , the second was mobile but had an altitude limit of about 11800 meters , therefore NATO aircraft could attack or avoid area defended by SA-3 (unless a proficent operator ,like Zoltan Dani, don't change ,with some "home-made" mods, an SA-3 in an semi-mobile SAM system and employ false radar emitters to deceive NATO JSTAR and jammers operators...) and overfly at more than 11000 meters the other areas and remain in this way outside the engagegment envelop of SA-6.

You can easily realize that a system like S-300PMU1 wouldn't have required the creative approach and tactics used by Zoltan Dani with its SA-3 Goa battery to be litterally dozen of times more mobile and survivable (take into account that the battallion commanded by Col. Zoltan Dani, in spite of hundreds of attacks attemot by part of NATO aircraft purposely "concentrated" against it, don't suffered a single loss in the whole war !!) and no any modification for be several dozen of times more deadly,therefore it would have not only represented a constant threat and applied a constant attrition to NATO aircraft invloved in the missions over Serbia but also a true force multiplier for any other outdated air defence assets capable to receive target updates and command directives from it.

I really do not know the real story of how Col Zoltan Dani downed the F-117.

But most western press credit that to bad planning on part of the crew , they took the same route twice , a spy in NATO who gave many secrets to russia which was passed on to Serbia and smart planning by Col Zoltan by keeping Emmision minimum and using HF for F-117 detection.

Do you have a good document/article where i can read about the incident ?

When you are in a war and you don't have JSTARS and AWACS and other intel assets you can generally only go by what you see on your SAM network radar scopes which are often only on for short periods to prevent ARM attack.

Even NATO admits they lost more than 50 UAVs, which are generally fairly small aerial vehicles... is it a huge stretch to think that the Serbs might have looked at the flight profile and very small RCS of a target flying over an area where seconds later there are the explosions of a bomber attack... they react by firing missiles and succeed in shooting down the target... what did they get? Based on the above info it could have been a B-2... remember during Desert Storm the US was constantly claiming to have shot down Mig-29s because that was the boogeyman for them... along with all the scuds they claimed to have shot down that we now know they didn't.

But most western press credit that to bad planning on part of the crew , they took the same route twice , a spy in NATO who gave many secrets to russia which was passed on to Serbia and smart planning by Col Zoltan by keeping Emmision minimum and using HF for F-117 detection.

But that is the key isn't it? Using HF for DETECTION.

In other words it was not a lucky shot, it was planning and the correct tools that allowed for "detection".

BTW can any one tell me how come the Serbs were so dead good in dealing with a far superior enemy like NATO in Kosovo Air Battle , according to NATO own assessment their AD and most war asset remain intact after the long heavy air campaign.

Did they receive any Russian assistance on how to deal with NATo Air Threat ?

How come they were so adaptive and managed to keep the SEAD of NATO at bay , except for fixed AD asset who position were known ?

Were they Warsaw country and trained well in the trade ?

Sorry to digress If need be mods can start a new thread.

I find the Seria resistance as a single major achievement in recent Air Wars against a far superior enemy in NATO and something no Gulf Country has shown using the same 60's weapons exported too them.

The more i read on how this small nation managed the entire air campaign the more I am impressed on their Ability and Innovation under War pressure , May there there is something for even Russia to learn from them ?

Much of the west thinks it is totally superior and the Russians can only copy and try to catch up to the west.

As such they rarely give credit to the Russians and assume they go through similar competition and development processes that look at combat experience for lessons and ideas.

If a Russian item of kit is different from western stuff... it was just because they couldn't make it the way the US does because they don't know how to make good stuff.

Obviously the Russians and Soviets are not just dumb copiers striving for parity. (Note the few western "experts" who believe the above... like Tom Clancy... I have always wondered how they brand the Russians and Soviets as the bad guys and the threat if they are just chasing US and western capability.)

That actually they develop what they need based on their combat experience and the experience of others, though of course they draw their own conclusions in that regard.

They know NATO has become a very mobile military force that specialises in first taking down air defence networks and then regimes and they have not been sleeping.

Experience in the Middle East where Soviet equipment was poorly used as static targets for Israeli pilots showed the Soviets that mobility was key, but not theatre mobility (ie can get to position quickly and stay there till knocked out), and not Strategic mobility (can be packed on a ship and delivered anywhere in the world), but operational mobility (where units move on a regular basis, and have backup guidance channels like optical or IR for when the jamming environment is intense).

Defences against HARMS also became a priority, and that is what the Serbs did right... mobility, passive and alternative guidance options that were hard to track/detect/counter and in absence of later model SAMs that could directly deal with HARMs (ie shoot them down) they used sophisticated emission techniques to minimise their exposure to the danger of being detected and hit. They listened to their Soviet/Russian training and likely used a few tricks of their own and showed that a smart enemy is still a dangerous one... even with not so good equipment.

Austin wrote:BTW can any one tell me how come the Serbs were so dead good in dealing with a far superior enemy like NATO in Kosovo Air Battle , according to NATO own assessment their AD and most war asset remain intact after the long heavy air campaign.

Did they receive any Russian assistance on how to deal with NATo Air Threat ?

How come they were so adaptive and managed to keep the SEAD of NATO at bay , except for fixed AD asset who position were known ?

Were they Warsaw country and trained well in the trade ?

Sorry to digress If need be mods can start a new thread.

I find the Seria resistance as a single major achievement in recent Air Wars against a far superior enemy in NATO and something no Gulf Country has shown using the same 60's weapons exported too them.

The more i read on how this small nation managed the entire air campaign the more I am impressed on their Ability and Innovation under War pressure , May there there is something for even Russia to learn from them ?

I come from ex-Yugoslavian state, so I know something about ex-JRV i PVO (Jugoslovensko ratno vazduhoplovstvo i protiv vazdušna odbrana).

Ex-Yugoslavia have excellent military academies and as neutral state in Europe know well both western and russian doctrine. Air defense was russian origin (excluding 40 mm Bofors guns) and they use Russian doctrine of it suited for Balkan region. Ex-SFRJ SA-3 crews often participate in international competitions of SA-3 crews in USSR and they always rich very good results, often between the first three, what means Serbs units in 1999 didn't need any assistance to do air defense, only assistance they need from Russia were spare parts for those old systems, because Yugoslavia didn't produce them. Problem of spare parts because of embargo was clearly shown on Mig-29 fighters, which were able to fly, but not able to fight, because their radars or armament systems didn't work because of luck of spare parts to replace failed parts.

This war as well as Vietnam war decades ago clearly show, that Russian air defense doctrine is very effective and this is something Arabs never learn. If Arabs instead of Russian doctrine learn at least western one, than Iraq could show better results with western Mirages and Rolands or Libyans with Crotale. And still majority of arab kills were rich by Russian SAMs and AAA.

Want Yugoslavian state was part of Warsaw pact nation priior to break up of SU , so most of the training and doctrine for post part was of Soviet Origin ?

Was any US radar or modified by US was used by Serbia as part of Kosovo campaign ?

We have heard about NATO views of Kosovo campaign , is there any internal view by Serbs as to how did they fare in this campaign ?

Ex-Yugoslavia was never part of Warsaw pact as well as NATO pact. After break up with Stalin in 1948 Yugoslavia start to cooperate with US, which sell F-86 planes and Patton tanks and officers went also in US military schools. Prior 1948 Yugoslav officers were schooled in USSR. In later times Yugoslavia start better cooperating with USSR and buy equipment there, like Mig-21 planes, T-55 and later T-72 tanks and Mig-29, air defense systems, etc. In the eighties they buy equipment in USSR and in the West. About doctrine, yes it was mostly soviet, because it better suit Yugoslavian environment than western one and actually those old ex-JNA manuals are of good use even today.

Serbia have some western air defense equipment like 40 mm Bofors gun with Giraffe radar from Sweden and AN/TPS-70 US early warning radars as well as some from Marconi. But majority of air defense radars was Soviet P series.

"Another deeply satisfying mission was rapid re-targeting to destroy an SA-3. The B-2 had been designed to elude air defenses. Now, with precision, it could destroy them, too. A B-2 crew was refueling before crossing the Yugoslav border when they got a SATCOM message to plug in a new target. They released JDAMs on the new.target, and a few days later, an intelligence officer said to them, hey, you guys blew up an SA-3.18Perhaps the most famous target destroyed by the B-2 was the Novi Sad Bridge. By May 1999, that bridge had been attacked by conventional fighters and by F-117s but it was still standing. Mission planners at Whiteman decided to take no chances and employ a full round of 8 weapons on the Novi Sad bridge.In one quick pass, a single B-2 targeted six JDAMs on the center span with another 2 JDAMs at one end. The bridge collapsed into the water. Over the 78-day campaign the B-2 pilots flew 51 sorties, all from Missouri to the European theater and back. Their epic intercontinental flights proved a level of reliability for the B-2 which no other combat aircraft ever attempted"

That is true picture of American philosophy of success. They Used B2 to destroyed bridges on danube river which was some 600KM far away from KOSOVO in Novi Sad, Best what was Serbian Army has was KUB system made on beginning of 60'ths, by which was shotted F-117, Of Air Force actually was few Old Mig29 half operational....and in such "DANGER ENVIRONMENT" they send stealth "master piece", and they is full of proud what B-2 was able to do on the sky which actually has not Air defence it is simply disgusting to be a proud of such achievement....but I have one question for USAF where is Spirit of Missouri-LoL....All high ranking AF USA officers know where it is ....On scrap yard . Like F-117, finish his flight over serbian village, B2 he was finished his flight over Croatian village, And i do not give a Sh.. does somebody believe or Not ...Because ...I'Was much much much more near that night to the "SPAČVANSKE ŠUME" then 99.9999999999% of Americans and American AF officers to the those wonder crap "which is finished his life exactly the same like F-117" i mean in operational use against enemy for which they was made. Which is USSR, in which AIr space he will fly fully minute or less. That was harsh blow for makers of B2,Nad be full of proud becausse actually he shown that hi is capable to

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Nope unfortunately those were just stories, I would be the happiest man if they were tru, but they werent...just myths...and the loses on their side would be greater if we had one, dont you agree?! XDWe would use it to destroy aircrafts and kubs and nevas to defend S-300...but nope...unfortunately! XD

They had the missiles, they just couldn't get the radar components before the invasion. It was part of RFs defense strategy. It could have made all the difference.

You confused Croatia with Serbia here, during Yugoslav wars Croatia obtained uncomplete S300 from Ukraine and showed it on their military parade as a way to prevent Serbians for using airforce over Croatia. And yes they lacked radar for it, after the war system kinda disappeared, some sources claim it was sold to Israel, Syria even US, however real recieving end was never found.

Serbia operated only SA06 and SA03 when its about medium/strategic SAMs (yes, here we kinda call S125 strategic missile defence due to its limited mobility).

Ranxerox71 wrote:"Another deeply satisfying mission was rapid re-targeting to destroy an SA-3. The B-2 had been designed to elude air defenses. Now, with precision, it could destroy them, too. A B-2 crew was refueling before crossing the Yugoslav border when they got a SATCOM message to plug in a new target. They released JDAMs on the new.target, and a few days later, an intelligence officer said to them, hey, you guys blew up an SA-3.18Perhaps the most famous target destroyed by the B-2 was the Novi Sad Bridge. By May 1999, that bridge had been attacked by conventional fighters and by F-117s but it was still standing. Mission planners at Whiteman decided to take no chances and employ a full round of 8 weapons on the Novi Sad bridge.In one quick pass, a single B-2 targeted six JDAMs on the center span with another 2 JDAMs at one end. The bridge collapsed into the water. Over the 78-day campaign the B-2 pilots flew 51 sorties, all from Missouri to the European theater and back. Their epic intercontinental flights proved a level of reliability for the B-2 which no other combat aircraft ever attempted"

That is true picture of American philosophy of success. They Used B2 to destroyed bridges on danube river which was some 600KM far away from KOSOVO in Novi Sad, Best what was Serbian Army has was KUB system made on beginning of 60'ths, by which was shotted F-117, Of Air Force actually was few Old Mig29 half operational....and in such "DANGER ENVIRONMENT" they send stealth "master piece", and they is full of proud what B-2 was able to do on the sky which actually has not Air defence it is simply disgusting to be a proud of such achievement....but I have one question for USAF where is Spirit of Missouri-LoL....All high ranking AF USA officers know where it is ....On scrap yard . Like F-117, finish his flight over serbian village, B2 he was finished his flight over Croatian village, And i do not give a Sh.. does somebody believe or Not ...Because ...I'Was much much much more near that night to the "SPAČVANSKE ŠUME" then 99.9999999999% of Americans and American AF officers to the those wonder crap "which is finished his life exactly the same like F-117" i mean in operational use against enemy for which they was made. Which is USSR, in which AIr space he will fly fully minute or less. That was harsh blow for makers of B2,Nad be full of proud becausse actually he shown that hi is capable to

Actually SA3 Goa (Neva) was used to shoot down F117A. Dani was in 3rd squadron they used Nevas and he finished command and staff training for SA3 in 1994. i had pleasure to meet him personally, tho you should not belive everything that man says, he is well known for...bragging of a sort even long before F117A was shot.

flamming_python wrote:So the B-2s evaded SA-3 batteries; an air-defence system introduced in the early 60s.

Colour me impressed.

Call me when B-2s succeed in evading some S-300s; that would be impressive.

Yeah, Yugoslavia operated only SA3s and SA6 in 1999. however. "Dvinas" were retired quite long before that and replaced with SA3s that came from Slovenia, however during the war in 1999. (09.05.1999.) High Command ordered retrieval of some retired SA2s to be used again however on 13.05.1999. their equipment was destroyed during preparation for service, maintenance was basically still ongoing this happened in Šimanovci (Serbians would know this place). Together with launchers one P12 radar was destroyed and PV van, however noone died coz operators left the equipment for couple of minutes (it wasnt still ready for operations apparently).

JohninMK wrote:Do you know if any of the Nevas were used in what might be called 'ambush' mode, luring in a strike to hit?

After major initial loses during first 2 weeksof fixed installations Nevas werent all that much active from what i am aware. They were deployed and ready, often moved around during night to increase survivability rate but not all that many launches were performed due to justified fear of manpower loss without significant success.

Some were deployed around industrial centers in hope in hope to use them as deterrance aganist airstrikes but all in vain. Generally speaking Kub performed alot better, at least in terms of survivability but they did not hit anything except one very likely friendly fire incident (and yet they launched quite a few missiles). Main reason for failure was apparently semi-active terminal guidance which was easily jammed, at least i was told so.

If i recall right NATO detected some 700 missile launches in total for 78 days.

JohninMK wrote:Do you know if any of the Nevas were used in what might be called 'ambush' mode, luring in a strike to hit?

After major initial loses during first 2 weeksof fixed installations Nevas werent all that much active from what i am aware. They were deployed and ready, often moved around during night to increase survivability rate but not all that many launches were performed due to justified fear of manpower loss without significant success.

Some were deployed around industrial centers in hope in hope to use them as deterrance aganist airstrikes but all in vain. Generally speaking Kub performed alot better, at least in terms of survivability but they did not hit anything except one very likely friendly fire incident (and yet they launched quite a few missiles). Main reason for failure was apparently semi-active terminal guidance which was easily jammed, at least i was told so.

If i recall right NATO detected some 700 missile launches in total for 78 days.

Militarov I appreciate the info I have a follow up question you're quite experienced with AD especially since you guys faced off against NATO. Could they have enjoyed the same success they had in Serbia if they were to face against a more modern AD network?