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Not to mention, even if there was absolutely no chance given to Erika to find out the truth, she still had the chance to win the games in a different way: By finding a truth everyone will accept, or trapping the GM in a logic error.

She lost of course, because she's the villain. Had Battler not had his epiphany and stopped her, "Natsuhi is the Culprit" would've been the end all truth.

I also think Battler did give Erika a chance in EP6 - The love duel really beats the Shkannon thing over your head, but Erika refused to pay attention to any of it.

I also think Battler did give Erika a chance in EP6 - The love duel really beats the Shkannon thing over your head, but Erika refused to pay attention to any of it.

I think that most people wouldn't come to that conclusion when seeing those scenes. Because "that solution is ridiculous." If you don't like a solution, you'll instinctively turn away from it, no matter how much it is suggested.

This is why I'm starting to respect Will a little, when I was never much of a fan of him in the past. At least he does try to understand, even when he doesn't like the solution, and even when the solution breaks Van Dine's Twenty Rules.

Was Erika truly tricked in the parlour scene in EP5? I mean, at that point in time, there was no Meta-Erika. And that scene was shown through Piece-Battler's eyes, who wasn't a Detective during that scene, and thus his PoV wasn't reliable.

For all we know, Erika only saw either Shannon or Kanon and never bothered looking for the other one.
This wouldn't be the first time Erika makes a mistake like this. She pretty much made a similar mistake during the 1st Twilight of EP5, when she wouldn't check the corpses properly and she even had the Detective Authority at that point, so she could very well have done it.

Erika was too focused on framing Natsuhi during EP5 to actually bother with anything else.

__________________

"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

Once she knew he was believing she was really murdering his family (and it was really easy to figure out), either she cleared up his assumption or she was torturing him.
She herself said the game was supposed to be torture.

Also she created a setting in which his assumption was entirely believable. She tricked him into believing it.

It was also her intention for him to see through all of her deceptions, meaning that right then and there, on that basis alone, Beatrice cannot be equated to how Erika is being hypothetically treated.

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Plus I seem to remember how many people were complaining about how she declared Kanon and Shannon dead in red when their body wasn't dead.

I already addressed this.

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but you sound like you're saying it was okay to take advantage of his ignorance because she had a good reason.

Also, since Battler didn't know a thing about the rules of the game, nearly every move she did took advantage of his ignorance one way or another.

One could very much argue that figuring out the rules of the game was part of the game. There's many real-life games that function this way, however, those games have a rule-of-faith that prohibit lying to players about the rules. "Lies by omission" are entirely separate.

And yes, Beatrice's deceptions, for all their faults, cannot be equated with Bern's and Lambda's deceptions because she wasn't doing it "for the lulz", and she didn't enjoy it.

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Because Beato's goal was to have Battler win in the end. This isn't either Lambda nor Battler's goal in EP 5-6.

Yea, speaking of that...Bern hates losing, and loves winning. So why would she let Lambdadelta lie to her piece about what she could do and how her powers functioned, which puts Erika at such a handicap that her chances of success are virtually zero?

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Honestly I can't share your opinion.
If Erika was lied about her abilities she and Battler were deceived on different things but both of them were deceived and tricked and both of them could have seen through that deception.

You don't seem to understand how logic works. It doesn't matter how good your deductions, intelligence, and reasoning skills are; if you are given false data as premises, you cannot reach correct conclusions. Any logician and philosopher will tell you that to perceive Truth, one needs to start with non-false premises of deduction, which you are denying Erika entirely.

How can such a one-sided form of bullying even be fun for Bern and Lambda? Erika doesn't even a snowball's chance in hell.

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If you want to argue Battler was subjected to more subtle trickery than Erika it still doesn't change they both were tricked.

The point went above you like an airplane. I'm not talking about subtle trickery, here.

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Was Erika truly tricked in the parlour scene in EP5? I mean, at that point in time, there was no Meta-Erika. And that scene was shown through Piece-Battler's eyes, who wasn't a Detective during that scene, and thus his PoV wasn't reliable.

Um...yes there was. There was a Meta-Erika ever since there was a Piece-Erika. She introduced herself to Battler at the beginning of the replay, and took direct orders from Bernkastel the entire game, conversing with her and everything.

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For all we know, Erika only saw either Shannon or Kanon and never bothered looking for the other one.

Why the hell would she do that? Erika very consistently combs for minor details whenever she can, and during the Parlor Scene specifically gathered everyone in the room because she wanted everyone to hear her announcement. This is the same girl who literally went around and ductaped absolutely every door and window of both buildings in order to construct alibis, and decapitated five people in order to win a verbal argument.

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This wouldn't be the first time Erika makes a mistake like this. She pretty much made a similar mistake during the 1st Twilight of EP5, when she wouldn't check the corpses properly and she even had the Detective Authority at that point, so she could very well have done it.

In fairness, she was being interrupted during that scene. It's not like she was like "Fuck it, ain't important."

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Erika was too focused on framing Natsuhi during EP5 to actually bother with anything else.

Not true. She only focused on Natsuhi-Culprit-Theory AFTER she began investigating, which happened after the First Twilight occurred.

It is not possible for this Erika theory, as stated, to be anything else but arbitrary torture.

This is bullshit. According to Genius Battler, Erika being tricked was needed to resurrect Beatrice.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

One could very much argue that figuring out the rules of the game was part of the game. There's many real-life games that function this way, however, those games have a rule-of-faith that prohibit lying to players about the rules. "Lies by omission" are entirely separate.

Okay. So when did someone lie to Erika about the rules? Be specific, like give a quote or something.

I think that most people wouldn't come to that conclusion when seeing those scenes. Because "that solution is ridiculous." If you don't like a solution, you'll instinctively turn away from it, no matter how much it is suggested.

This is why I'm starting to respect Will a little, when I was never much of a fan of him in the past. At least he does try to understand, even when he doesn't like the solution, and even when the solution breaks Van Dine's Twenty Rules.

...where was it implied that Will didn't like the solution? He's pretty darn sympathetic to Shkanon, and it's probably part of why he's so attached to Lion. If anything, it's his own Twenty Rules that he's come to dislike.

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Originally Posted by Used Can

Erika was too focused on framing Natsuhi during EP5 to actually bother with anything else.

Not to pick on you, specifically, or anything like that, but I'm confused why this line of thought is accepted by so many. As Aura says, Erika honed in on Natsuhi because the evidence rather openly pointed at her after the First Twilight, and Nats in general seems to have been Lambda's narrative Red Herring. Furthermore, even though Erika dislikes being wrong, there's no reason to go for Natsuhi, if there was some other party that can be even more legitimately mind-raped.

Also, random question is random, but I was wondering if there were some specific survivor groups people would've liked to see play out in a Game. I can't help thinking what a Natsuhi / Rosa / Kyrie power struggle would have look like, lately.

Battler was deceived, but it is arguable whether Beatrice was the one actually trying to deceive him (she was also constrained by rules imposed upon her, remember) and to what extent he was deceiving himself.

You're also incapable of grasping the moral difference between Beatrice doing something uncomfortable for Battler and for herself for a reason she believed to be important

Uncomfortable? He thought his relatives were being killed over and over! Have you ever tried the pain of losing someone you love? If this is just uncomfortable for you...
... it's too bad it wasn't just 'uncomfortable' for me.
Sure, it's very acceptable if Beato had the important reason of having herself being understood making him believe the people he loved were being killed. After all it was only 'uncomfortable' for Battler.

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Originally Posted by Renall

and every single other Meta-Character doing something cruel and arbitrary to Erika for no reason whatsoever.

Battler had a reason. He needed his game to be played. Why is it acceptable for you that Beato tricks Battler because she wants to be understood but not that Battler tricks Erika because he wants to show to Beato he understood her?

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Originally Posted by Renall

By ep5 and ep6, however, Battler and Beatrice are in some sort of position to now participate in this higher-order restriction imposition, or at least to comment on it to Erika, and per this theory it is evident that they never actually do.

Sure, let's tell the one who declared herself an intellectual rapist the truth... Truth which I doubt Battler knew in EP 5 as he realized only at the end how the narrative might have been subjective and that Beato couldn't surely tell her as her meta part was reduced to a doll and her piece part was fighting for her life against Erika.
Surely Erika wouldn't use the info to get the victory her master wants which is this by the way:

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The victory you did want had Beato's game board being torn to bits and Beato's true, pathetic form exposed, humiliated, and trampled on.

Erika's a piece who can't disobey her master's order but she'll make a miracle just this time.

Oh no, let's tell her the truth in EP 6.
Battler will lose the game but since he's playing it with a meaningless goal why should he care?

Sorry, I really can't agree with you.

First, because I find that's morally wrong to put someone else under mind torture for personal reasons. Beato isn't more excusable than Battler.

Second, because you're basically saying that if Battler wanted to do the moral thing he should have basically let Erika win, making pointless to start the game in the first place and let fall apart the illusion of the witch Battler is trying to protect.
If you were in his shoes would you really sacrifice Beato to save Erika?

It's in response to the people theorizing "Contrary to what we're told, Detective's Authority does not do X".

Christ, I know that. I'm asking who lied to Erika and when. Give an example of someone overtly lying to her about the rules, or at best it's just a "lie by omission", which according to you does not count.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The Logic Error is not synonymous to Battler being party to Bern and Lambda lying to Erika about the rules of the game or how Erika's powers are supposed to frickin' operate.

And I know this too. Read the statement I was replying to instead of straw-manning me.

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Originally Posted by Kealym

As Aura says, Erika honed in on Natsuhi because the evidence rather openly pointed at her after the First Twilight, and Nats in general seems to have been Lambda's narrative Red Herring. Furthermore, even though Erika dislikes being wrong, there's no reason to go for Natsuhi, if there was some other party that can be even more legitimately mind-raped.

Actually, the grudge started when Kinzo's ghost "escaped", which was after the parlor scene but before the First Twilight.

Also, random question is random, but I was wondering if there were some specific survivor groups people would've liked to see play out in a Game. I can't help thinking what a Natsuhi / Rosa / Kyrie power struggle would have look like, lately.

I'd like to see a game where all the kids die off first and the adults, primarily ones that haven't gotten a lot of focus, like Hideyoshi, survive to the end.

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Uncomfortable? He thought his relatives were being killed over and over! Have you ever tried the pain of losing someone you love? If this is just uncomfortable for you...
... it's too bad it wasn't just 'uncomfortable' for me.
Sure, it's very acceptable if Beato had the important reason of having herself being understood making him believe the people he loved were being killed. After all it was only 'uncomfortable' for Battler.

Will you chill the fuck out? Renall wasn't making light of Battler's suffering or using "uncomfortable" in a passive, minor sense. Renall just speaks in a reserved, held-back tone and vocabulary out of habit from his line of work.

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Battler had a reason. He needed his game to be played. Why is it acceptable for you that Beato tricks Battler because she wants to be understood but not that Battler tricks Erika because he wants to show to Beato he understood her?

What about during EP5, when Battler had nothing to gain? And since he's making Erika give it up anyway as part of his scheme, why lie to her about how her Authority functions? You don't understand what Renall and I are complaining about; it has nothing to do with Battler's Logic Error or anything of the sort.

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Sure, let's tell the one who declared herself an intellectual rapist the truth... Truth which I doubt Battler knew in EP 5 as he realized only at the end how the narrative might have been subjective and that Beato couldn't surely tell her as her meta part was reduced to a doll and her piece part was fighting for her life against Erika.
Surely Erika wouldn't use the info to get the victory her master wants which is this by the way:

Battler knew how subjective scenes worked in the Game since near the beginning of Episode Three. He had a whole talk about it with Virgilia.

On top of that, Battler is supposed to be the good guy. Even if Erika is going to use that information to do something Battler doesn't like, wouldn't he rather she have a fair chance? What's the point in beating her if she's handicapped? How is that respectful to her whatsoever?

And EP8 certainly shows us that Battler respects her as an opponent, so what gives? Ontop of that, why is Bernkastel tolerating Erika having a handicap? She seems to know the game pretty damn well, so why is she tolerating Erika being kept from doing her job to the best of her ability? Especially after she went through all the work of minmaxing her into a god mode sue?

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Erika's a piece who can't disobey her master's order but she'll make a miracle just this time.

Oh no, let's tell her the truth in EP 6.
Battler will lose the game but since he's playing it with a meaningless goal why should he care?

Sorry, I really can't agree with you.

Again, you do not understand what other people are actually talking about.

Not that it matters, because BATTLER winning or losing is entirely irrelevant. Battler's goal in EP6 is to demonstrate that he understands Beatrice's game. As long as he does that, victory or loss is completely meaningless; it's just a demonstration of his knowledge.

And with that being the case, Erika is his witness to this truth. WHY is she being handicapped in a way that damages her ability to evaluate Battler's wisdom, and why is he putting up with it?

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First, because I find that's morally wrong to put someone else under mind torture for personal reasons. Beato isn't more excusable than Battler.

You're right. Battler isn't mind-torturing Erika, however, UNLESS HE'S LYING TO HER ABOUT HER POWERS ALONG WITH BERN AND LAMBDA.

Beato is implied to be forced into doing what she does by Lambda, and even then a person can still be sympathetic even if they're not morally right.

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Second, because you're basically saying that if Battler wanted to do the moral thing he should have basically let Erika win, making pointless to start the game in the first place and let fall apart the illusion of the witch Battler is trying to protect.
If you were in his shoes would you really sacrifice Beato to save Erika?

No one is saying this. Not a single person in this thread. Maybe you should go back and re-read the conversation, because you're kind of making yourself look silly.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer

Christ, I know that. I'm asking who lied to Erika and when. Give an example of someone overtly lying to her about the rules, or at best it's just a "lie by omission", which according to you does not count.

Um...? Why should I? You were the one who first suggested it, not me.

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And I know this too. Read the statement I was replying to instead of straw-manning me.

I'm not straw-manning you. The thing is, there is a clear difference between what Renall is complaining about (the hypothetical lying during the Parlor scene) and Battler's Logic Error, in that they really have nothing in common. You're equivocating them wherein no equivocation exists. You're making a logical fallacy.

Battler had a reason. He needed his game to be played. Why is it acceptable for you that Beato tricks Battler because she wants to be understood but not that Battler tricks Erika because he wants to show to Beato he understood her?

It's you guys who are advancing this idiocy, not me. If Erika isn't being arbitrarily lied to about fundamental matters, then Battler is being far fairer to her than anyone else, including her own master. Also I'm not sure that allowing her to damn near win is "tricking" her. If Beatrice doesn't figure out the loophole, Erika wins. That's more than a fair shake, that's practically handicapping himself.

And she doesn't lose in Battler's game because Battler deceives her about what she's capable of doing. Quite the opposite, he very explicitly gives her certain additional powers (and offers more and is rejected!) which he stands by even when they prove detrimental to him! Battler doesn't escape the Logic Error because the seals on his room were somehow not as Erika thought they were. Beatrice's solution had to obey the same rules.

That's rather a bit different than the situation in ep5. Again, I think this is a lot easier if we simply conclude that Erika can in fact do what people tell her that she can do, agree that the parlor scene is a problem we don't yet have an adequate solution for in light of this, and continue with the assumption that she is losing not because she is being intentionally misled about her own abilities but because in her arrogance she isn't drawing the proper conclusions from the information her abilities allow her to gather. I have no idea why this is objectionable.

I would have been interested in seeing interactions between Eva & Shannon, or Natsuhi & Gohda. (Yes, they all survived as far as we see in Ep. 5, but they didn't interact that much after the first twilight.)

All of Renall just said, times ten. In my opinion, this whole "Erika has a disconnect of information" thing is a really huge truckload of worms that's really just making a mess of everything else that TOUCHES the issue, as this conversation has demonstrated for several pages now.

So do we want ALL of EP5 and EP6 (and possibly EP8 too) to be a total mess, or do we want to make the EP5 parlor scene the only problematic, iffy, confusing part, here?

Actually, the grudge started when Kinzo's ghost "escaped", which was after the parlor scene but before the First Twilight.

Eh? We are talking about the scene that introduces Dlanor, and Piece-Beato had to try and reason how Kinzo had escaped the study despite all the seals? That happened well after the First Twilight. Of course, Erika probably didn't have the highest opinion of Kratsuhi anyway, since she knew they were hiding Kinzo's death.

Still, I was amused that she intended to warp Natsuhi Culprit Theory to fit every single episode, even though it would make, at least, EP2 beyond silly.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'd like to see a game where all the kids die off first and the adults, primarily ones that haven't gotten a lot of focus, like Hideyoshi, survive to the end.

Yeah, the dads never got much screen time, in general. I can only assume Yasu just killed him off out of not knowing enough about him to do anything for a decent story. As you say, though, I definitely wanted to know how the rest of the EP5 forgery went, with the kids being dead first.

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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I would have been interested in seeing interactions between Eva & Shannon, or Natsuhi & Gohda. (Yes, they all survived as far as we see in Ep. 5, but they didn't interact that much after the first twilight.)

Yeah, that could be interesting ... Nats comes to rely on Godha as an ally, as he's the only servant she hired, herself? We know from his Extra TIP that he holds a notable degree of gratitude towards her for the cushy job

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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Could we just accept it as a plothole then?

A BIG one, but I feel we could not figure out any meaning behind it.

I, and alot of others I assume, have a spot of trouble taking as an oversight by Ryukishi, because the whole Shkanon thing was SUCH a big deal, that he pushed on us for hours and hours of disappearing butlers and vaguely cryptic dialogue. Our Confessions even makes a point of how, in the conception of a forgery, special attention has to be paid to the comings and goings of Shannon and Kanon relative to each other and people's perceptions. It just seems too glaring to be a mere oversight, yknow?

I do agree that none of us seem able to convert others to our own ways of thinking about the matter, though.

Um...yes there was. There was a Meta-Erika ever since there was a Piece-Erika. She introduced herself to Battler at the beginning of the replay, and took direct orders from Bernkastel the entire game, conversing with her and everything.

No, there wasn't, re-read the scene. When Erika first showed up, Meta-Battler complained about that new character and then Bern and Lambda told him about Erika and how she was the Detective and how her existence didn't violate the rules. During the parlour scene the only Meta characters around were Battler, Bern and Lambda.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Why the hell would she do that? Erika very consistently combs for minor details whenever she can, and during the Parlor Scene specifically gathered everyone in the room because she wanted everyone to hear her announcement. This is the same girl who literally went around and ductaped absolutely every door and window of both buildings in order to construct alibis, and decapitated five people in order to win a verbal argument.

She didn't gather everyone. Everyone gathered in the parlour at that time, because of the news of the visitor. We were told everyone was there by Lambda in the Meta, and then saw the whole thing through Piece-Battler's perspective.

As for why she'd overlook things, assuming she had been informed beforehand that everyone would be gathered in the parlour at that point, she probably just didn't bother checking things further. Notice that the duct-tapes were pretty much used because of lack of knowledge of what would happen.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

In fairness, she was being interrupted during that scene. It's not like she was like "Fuck it, ain't important."

Interrupted by whom? Battler stood in her way, and then she went "Detective Authority, bitch!" and did whatever she pleased. She explicitly told Battler she had no plans on checking the corpses. Not doing that was her own decision and mistake. Instead, she simply asked the oh-so-reliable Dr. Nanjo for his diagnosis.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Not true. She only focused on Natsuhi-Culprit-Theory AFTER she began investigating, which happened after the First Twilight occurred.

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Originally Posted by Kealym

Not to pick on you, specifically, or anything like that, but I'm confused why this line of thought is accepted by so many. As Aura says, Erika honed in on Natsuhi because the evidence rather openly pointed at her after the First Twilight, and Nats in general seems to have been Lambda's narrative Red Herring. Furthermore, even though Erika dislikes being wrong, there's no reason to go for Natsuhi, if there was some other party that can be even more legitimately mind-raped.

Seriously? Remember Erika's "Whoops... Talking with Nanjo about mysteries was so cool, I got careless for a bit, so a crime may have happened between 24:00 and 1:00... Teeheehee..."? Not only that, but she deliberately remained the in the Guest's House even though, as she claimed, a lot of gold had just been found and bad shit could have happened. Yet, she decided to stick around old people and children, instead of the people who were in a dire need for money.

Hell, she couldn't even care about pointing Natsuhi as the culprit. She even said she'd have blamed Krauss or Kinzo had Natsuhi allowed her to.

__________________

"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

No, there wasn't, re-read the scene. When Erika first showed up, Meta-Battler complained about that new character and then Bern and Lambda told him about Erika and how she was the Detective and how her existence didn't violate the rules. During the parlour scene the only Meta characters around were Battler, Bern and Lambda.

Because a Meta-character being present means she doesn't exist?

Regardless, Meta-Erika was present before the Parlor Scene. I know that for a fact. Hell, you could argue she existed during the "Kinzo Escape" scene. What criteria are we using to determine if Meta-Erika exists or not, since she's ALWAYS meta-aware to some capacity?

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She didn't gather everyone. Everyone gathered in the parlour at that time, because of the news of the visitor. We were told everyone was there by Lambda in the Meta, and then saw the whole thing through Piece-Battler's perspective.

Even if we take this at face value and assume Erika can't see through her own piece (which is nonsense), why wouldn't she take a head-count?

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As for why she'd overlook things, assuming she had been informed beforehand that everyone would be gathered in the parlour at that point, she probably just didn't bother checking things further. Notice that the duct-tapes were pretty much used because of lack of knowledge of what would happen.

Erika doesn't trust anything not stated in red, and combs the red for verbal tricks and loopholes. This isn't good enough. Your explanations just aren't consistent with how Erika behaves.

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Interrupted by whom? Battler stood in her way, and then she went "Detective Authority, bitch!" and did whatever she pleased. She explicitly told Battler she had no plans on checking the corpses. Not doing that was her own decision and mistake. Instead, she simply asked the oh-so-reliable Dr. Nanjo for his diagnosis.

Yea, and then things happened after Dr. Nanjo gave his diagnosis. Rememberrrr?

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Seriously? Remember Erika's "Whoops... Talking with Nanjo about mysteries was so cool, I got careless for a bit, so a crime may have happened between 24:00 and 1:00... Teeheehee..."? Not only that, but she deliberately remained the in the Guest's House even though, as she claimed, a lot of gold had just been found and bad shit could have happened. Yet, she decided to stick around old people and children, instead of the people who were in a dire need for money.

Yes, and? To Erika's credit, the culprit, WHOEVER IT MIGHT BE, isn't going to do murder-y stuff if she's fucking watching them. Nor would it be fun for her to solve things that way.

Seriously? Remember Erika's "Whoops... Talking with Nanjo about mysteries was so cool, I got careless for a bit, so a crime may have happened between 24:00 and 1:00... Teeheehee..."? Not only that, but she deliberately remained the in the Guest's House even though, as she claimed, a lot of gold had just been found and bad shit could have happened. Yet, she decided to stick around old people and children, instead of the people who were in a dire need for money.

Hell, she couldn't even care about pointing Natsuhi as the culprit. She even said she'd have blamed Krauss or Kinzo had Natsuhi allowed her to.

I'm ... not sure what you're arguing? 'Cause it sounds like we agree with each other. And to be fair, she chose to monitor Battler, who has just been thrust into a very precarious position as the relative who discovered and announced the gold.

And Lambda seemed to have formed her entire gameboard narrative around a red-herring Natsuhi culprit theme, by blackmailing her piece with the MF19YAO, and removing Krauss, the only person who would've staunchly remained her ally, throughout.

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Originally Posted by Used Can

She didn't gather everyone. Everyone gathered in the parlour at that time, because of the news of the visitor. We were told everyone was there by Lambda in the Meta, and then saw the whole thing through Piece-Battler's perspective.

It's been so vague in this discussion, because the Parlor scene when she's introduced is where the "everyone that in this room" red is given. However, the same issue exists in the parlor scene where she accuses Natsuhi, and she did explicitly gather everyone together for that. It's even vaguely described as the pieces being compelled to attend because of her Detective Authority thing.