I don't understand why the medium over which the debate is communicated makes a difference in the debate. Are the opinions expressed here less valid than opinions expressed at, say, a family gathering?

I dunno about scores, but I recall reading some SEAL books describing how much one Team shot in training , and the amount of ammo they were using was very, very high. I read this just before the first Gulf War, maybe in a Dick Marchenko (?) book.

If training rounds are any indication of proficiency, these guys anyhow, were likely very very good.

If you want to know more about US military special operations or weapons training there are many non fiction books about these tier one level units.Rogue Warrior Inside the Delta Force Delta Force In The Company of Heroes Task Force Orange No Heroes Cold Zero SOG; Special.Operations Group Bravo Two Zulu .

Commander Richard Marcinko, US Navy SEAL who started & ran SEAL 06 then ran Red Cell(a covert group that tested security at military installations) wrote that he procured as much .45acp pistol rounds for the SEALs than the entire US Marine Corps that FY.

The ISA(also called Task Force Orange) was the Intelligence Support Activity. An elite US Army unit that reportedly beat out several pistol teams in the NOVA/DC area; FBI, Delta, SEALs, US Secret Service, DSS(Diplomatic Security Service).
In the book, the ISA members were even asked not to enter the matches anymore.

Thanks for the replys guys, I ended up making a long reply usuing a lot of info I found on here and all of a sudden her app isnt working and she cant view my message but can reply to me and is no longer in a debating mood lol

Stand next to some big young guy at the pistol range with a human sized target 6' in front of him that he is blasting away at, and he is probably just doing shooting practice because he is supposed to.

But get next to an old guy at the rifle range that trains snipers, and you will see wind doping like you have never seen it. All 1/2" groups with a 223 in 6 mph wind gusts.

What does it all mean?
There are cops... and then there are cops.

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The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

You're responsible for every bullet you fire. The police are not responsible for *any* bullets they fire, as long as they follow procedure. They call it "officer safety" (nobody cares about your safety except you, but you better not screw up)

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"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"

No idea about SEALS, but the SF guys on our FOB used to give us boxes of ammo they had laying around. Not bad mouthing my old unit, but you'd thing in Iraq of all places, they'd supply you with ample ammo.

I'm almost positive that every time we went to the practice range there was a handful of them shooting. They mostly kept to themselves, but occasionally showed us some cool drills (while our LT panicked haha)

Saw a show on SEAL training and they said the minimum standard was to hit the target every time first time.

Don't think the line of argument works.

The thesis is that the average American is poorly trained and prepared for shooting in a life or death situation.

If the anti-thesis is that police officers who are trained and must meet minimum standards are also not adept; how does that invalidate the original thesis?

Imagine the argument as a first amendment one.
So most people are lousy writers ergo they shouldn't have free speech rights until they can write to a minimum standard.
Would the appropriate response be, "well most professional writers don't write very well either".

The right to self defense is about potential not ability. Just as most people won't write a newspaper article, most people will not use a firearm in self defense. But potentially we may do either or both. How well we do either is not as important has just having the chance.

So in comparison to the 10-20% noted earlier and ~~ numbers in NYPD & LAPD reports, does anyone have any idea on how well SEALS / other SF groups shoot?

I have shot with a good number of SF. A couple SEALs, but mainly Delta guys. They are not just great shots, they are very fast, great shots. These are guys that have actually had regular experience shooting while taking fire and killing other people, and as a result they are not as affected by the thought of being shot at like most police officers who haven't had that type of experience.

I have shot with a good number of SF. A couple SEALs, but mainly Delta guys. They are not just great shots, they are very fast, great shots. These are guys that have actually had regular experience shooting while taking fire and killing other people, and as a result they are not as affected by the thought of being shot at like most police officers who haven't had that type of experience.

What's your day job that you have an opportunity to shoot with SEALs and Delta Force members?

I don't mean to imply anything, you just have to admit that post will raise a few eyes on the Internet.

I'm actually on my school's competitive shooting team. The main place that I shoot and the range that my coach manages is the only place within a couple hundred miles that goes out to 1,000 yards and has the facilities to set up shoot houses. The local SWAT teams all train there, and in addition to shooting, I help set up for them.

We also have all sorts of instructors come there to give classes (with current and former SF being involved), so I get to meet some cool people. Bob Vogel even had a couple classes there within the past couple weeks.

There is one operator who came back from overseas to earn a master's degree and to become more fluent in Arabic. I shot with him a couple times in the 3 gun matches held out at this range and got to talk with him a bit. He recently went back downrange, and I'm looking forward to him making it back.

And at the Surefire Texas Multigun match I was in a squad with a former Recon Marine who now does contract work overseas. He was a fun guy to shoot and chat with. Very down to earth, but loves what he did with the Marines and currently does as a contractor. Lots of stories from him!

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