James Ishmael Ford Interview

James Myoun Ford (b. July 17, 1948), aka James Ishmael Ford, is an American Soto Zen priest and ordained Unitarian Universalist minister. The author of several books on Zen Buddhism and Unitarian Universalism, James Ishmael Ford is the co-founder with David Dayan Rynick and Melissa Myozen Blacker of the Boundless Way Zen school and senior minister at the First Unitarian Church of Providence in Rhode Island. Ford-roshi is a Dharma heir of both Houn Jiyu-Kennett and John Tarrant-roshi.

SZ: I see you started your Zen practice with Soto priest Sojun Mel Weitsman in 1968 at the Berkeley Zen Center in California. I wonder if you could tell us a bit about what it was that drew you to Zen Buddhism?

JIF: It was the late nineteen sixties and I’d be casting about for my place spiritually for a while. I’d been raised religious and, even though I’d rejected my childhood fundamentalist Christianity, I was consumed by the questions of the spiritual life. At first I was taken with the spiritual claims of the San Francisco psychedelic scene, and I fairly quickly realized there was one spiritual lesson to be gleaned from the psychedelic experience: the world was not in fact the way I had previously thought it to be. After that it, it seemed like some sort of tourism to a Technicolor Disney Land. It was all what I would later come to understand as makyo or pretty pictures [well, some were pretty], but not particularly meaningful. I also had a brief flirtation with Vedanta. I visited with a number of the spiritual teachers presenting their wares in the Bay Area, but felt no particular affinities.

Then, at the suggestion of some friends, I traveled to the San Francisco Zen Center and was given basic instruction in the art of zazen.

I was hooked. I had found my practice.

They gave me a list of affiliated sitting groups and the closest was the Berkeley Zendo. I don’t recall with certainty, but I’m not positive Mel had even been ordained yet. He was very much in charge, however. And if not at the moment I arrived, he certainly received tonsure soon after. I suspect that says a lot about my focus at the time. You had to have the colored robe, or you didn’t count as a teacher. There may have even been a bit of that bias that one had to be Japanese, too… Although at this distance I like to think that was one of the view traps I didn’t fall into… Also from this distance there is little doubt to me that Mel was my first Zen teacher. Suzuki Roshi was a very distant figure. I never spoke to him. I only heard him talk occasionally. And I hadn’t worked my way into retreats, although I had a pretty serious sitting practice. So, I saw Mel a lot in the zendo. And how he conducted himself was my first experience of what Zen practice might look like.

SZ: You received dharma transmission from the late Soto priest Houn Jiyu-Kennett, who by most accounts had an interesting personality and specific vision on how Zen should be practiced. I wonder if you could share with us anything about Jiyu-Kennett and her vision of Zen practice?

JIF: A few years ago I attended a gathering for former inmates of Shasta Abbey and it was a very healing experience. Among other things, I learned something about my experience of Kennett Roshi. It quickly became obvious, at least to me, that everyone at the gathering was an alumn of Shasta Abbey. There was a culture and a style that, even though they had rejected it, marked them. It was also quickly obvious, probably to all, that I was not an alumn of Shasta Abby. I was an alumn of the Zen Mission Society. The official history has changed a bit since my time there.

In fact, Kennett Roshi had been authorized to establish a Zen center in London, and had stopped at the San Francisco Zen Center to be given an orientation to an extraordinarily successful mission. Indeed, her organization was a mission, the Zen Mission Society. One may say many things about Jiyu Kennett, but stupid was never one of them. She liked California, and decided to stay. She moved into a flat on Potrero Hill and announced she was receiving. I felt the San Francisco system was too large for me to have access to the teachers, and leapt at the possibility of connecting directly with a Zen master. I was her first student. Now, Josh Baran claims he was her first student. But I claim I arrived on a Tuesday and he on a Thursday. And I’m sticking with that story…

From San Francisco, we moved to Oakland and from Oakland we purchased the property at Mt Shasta. It was there I did my shuso and received Dharma transmission. Our style was barely distinguishable from what was going on at San Francisco Zen Center at the time. More in English, but that was about it. Her major shifts in perspective and style came later and I was not part of those. My problem with the roshi revolved around the exhibition of (what I think of from this perspective today) cult-like behaviors. Some of this perspective is, I’m pretty sure, true. For instance, she arranged my marriage. And yet other things simply reflected the authoritarian training style she had inherited.

SZ: After some time in the Episcopal Church and exploring Western Gnosticism and Sufism, you undertook a very long study that involved koan introspection with John Tarrant-roshi, now of the Pacific Zen Institute. Having received inka shomei from Tarrant-roshi in 2005, who had studied with Robert Aitken-roshi in the Harada-Yasutani lineage, I wonder how your practice with him within this tradition might have differed from your previous experiences with Weitsman and Jiyu-Kennett?

JIF: John was, is, a different kettle of fish. He was my third teacher and my most important teacher. He has little interest in priest-craft, although he tolerated my vestigial interest and always insisted I wear my colored rakusu. Although when I became his student I voluntarily surrendered my “right” to teach, and continued so until he formally re-gave me that permission. Our training, of course, was focused on koan introspection practice, driven by frequent retreats. For us the constant question was how did these koans inform daily life? And so with him I was able to unite what I was encountering on the pillow with what I was encountering in the rest of my life. He is of course a poet, and a serious non-conformist. Studying with John was Mr Toad’s Wild Ride.

If I’d been experiencing Dogen’s way with more than a dash of Keizan with Jiyu Kennett, with John Tarrant I’d stumbled into studying with a modern incarnation of Hakuin mixed with more than a dash of Ikkyu – metaphorically speaking, I hope you understand.

SZ: During your time with Tarrant-roshi you became affiliated with Unitiarian Universalism and eventually became a minister in that tradition. What is Unitarian Universalism and where does it intersect with Zen Buddhism, as you see it?

JIF: My dual affiliation began pretty much at the same time. I think I’d started attending Unitarian Universalist worship services before beginning to sit with John. Again, through the kindness of mysterious karma, I was John’s first student in California. But whether UU first or John Tarrant first, for me they came pretty much together, the peanut butter and jelly of my spiritual life. John’s teaching was driven by sitting, interviews and retreats. My needs included a clearer understanding of community as a spiritual enterprise. And for me each filled the holes in the other system. Unitarian Universalism is a modern religious movement with historical roots in New England’s Unitarianism and Universalism. Think of Henry Thoreau and Ralph Waldo Emerson hanging out with Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, Hillary Clinton and Norman Thomas. Please, again, just a metaphor, only the first two were actually Unitarian. A lovely community with an evolving spirituality based in Unitarian and Universalist Christianity, but washed through Humanism. The majority spiritual perspective today is found in two insights: the preciousness of the individual and the knowledge the individual exists only within a web of relationships. Today somewhere between ten and twenty percent of Unitarian Universalists claim to be Buddhist. What precisely that means is slippery, but the claim itself is important.

SZ: Your book Zen Master Who?: A Guide to the People and Stories of Zen is, I believe, the most comprehensive book on the people and places of Zen in North America. You didn’t parse words much regarding some teachers, which was really refreshing. Usually all of this stuff is shrouded in secret and folks do not speak up about questionable or shady teachers, even though everyone “in-the-know” knows. But I have to think some of your criticisms must have been received unfavorably by certain institutions and/or individuals who wished to not have their dirty laundry on display. In some instances, you were the first prominent and reliable author to shed light on some of these issues, i.e. self-declared teachers or sexual indiscretions. I wonder if you’ve received any sort of “cold shoulder” responses to the publication, and am also interested to know a bit about your research methodology. Also, do you plan a second edition?

JIF: Thank you for the kind words. Although I don’t think I was quite as fierce as you suggest in the warts and all department. My formula was to be as open as I could be to any “facts” of which I knew regarding any “first generation” teachers. I ignored scandals and hints of scandal for the next generation, which are, of course, mostly my peers. As there’s a bit of slide between what constitutes first and second, I tried to err on the side of generosity. Regarding subsequent generations and their scandals, I probably will let someone else handle it. As to the self-declared, I only named one name, the most prominent of such. For the most part a simple Google search will reveal those who are not in fact connected to the mainstream of the Zen tradition in the West. Exploring these I felt really belonged to a different kind of study. I believe I’ve lost no friends within the Zen community because of this book. Certainly no one has snubbed me at any Zen teacher gathering. As to my methodology, I was invited to write this book because I actually know a majority of the second generation teachers, and it was felt most people would trust my basic good will. So a fair number of interviews followed, but mostly it was all based on the public record, what anyone could find with some diligence. My job was to sort out the more important details and order it.

As to any second edition, it would be nice to be able to correct some of the many errors in the book. I’m particularly embarrassed that I stated the Korean teacher Samu Sunim had not received Dharma transmission when he had. A failure of follow up on my part and something I really should have caught. But that call belongs to the good folk at Wisdom. In the meantime I have other writing projects going. Myozen Blacker and I are near the end of an anthology of materials on the Mu koan, which we’re doing for Wisdom Publications. And one of my students is working on an anthology of my own writings, also for Wisdom, which involves some attention from me. Hopefully both will see the light of day before very long.

SZ: James, it was a pleasure to have an opportunity to sit with you. In closing, what books would you recommend to those looking to learn more about Zen?

About Sweeping Zen

Established in 2009 as a grassroots initiative, Sweeping Zen is a digital archive of information on Zen Buddhism. Featuring in-depth interviews, an extensive database of biographies, news, articles, podcasts, teacher blogs, events, directories and more, this site is dedicated to offering the public a range of views in the sphere of Zen Buddhist thought. We are also endeavoring to continue creating lineage charts for all Western Zen lines, doing our own small part in advancing historical documentation on this fabulous import of an ancient tradition. Come on in with a tea or coffee. You're always bound to find something new.

About Sweeping Zen

Established in 2009 as a grassroots initiative, Sweeping Zen is a digital archive of information on Zen Buddhism. Featuring in-depth interviews, an extensive database of biographies, news, articles, podcasts, teacher blogs, events, directories and more, this site is dedicated to offering the public a range of views in the sphere of Zen Buddhist thought. We are also endeavoring to continue creating lineage charts for all Western Zen lines, doing our own small part in advancing historical documentation on this fabulous import of an ancient tradition. Come on in with a tea or coffee. You're always bound to find something new.

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