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COMSAT HISTORY PROJECT Interview with Richard Colino

Interview conducted by Nina Gilden Seavey
4

Interview with Richard Colino INTELSAT Headquarters November 13, 1985

10:30 a.m.

Nina Gilden Seavey: I'm going to ask you some fairly rudimentary questions to begin with. We're going to go all the way back to the beginning, because that's the part that I'm really most interested in. Your involvement with INTELSTAT has already been fairly well documented, so what I'm interested in is where you started with COMSAT in the very early days. I know you're at the State Department very early on, and why. don't we start there. Why don't we start....

Richard Colino: Let's start just before the Satellite Act.

NS: Alright.

RC: Because I was at the FCC and in the International

Division, which had an initial responsibility in the Common Carrier Bureau for satellites before they were satellites and before there was.a Satellite Act. I worked on the last stages of the drafting of the Satellite Act.

NS: Who did you work with?

RC: I worked with Bernie Strassburg--who was the Deputy Chief of the Common Carrier Bureau, and very shortly after that, the Chief of the Bureau--in fact, reported to him directly - on that, and to the Chairman, who was then Newton Minow; as I say, the last month or two of the Satellite Act.

NS: So were you involved at that time in the negotiations about the Satellite Act?

RC: The final drafting .
Act.

The final drafting of the Satellite

NS: So were you working with Nick Katzenbach at that time?

RC: Yeah, yep, yep. Actually , or not ,

he was really not, believe it It switched

he was not the guy that had the ball .

twice at Justice .

Lee Loevinger , who was Assistant Attorney

General for Antitrust was at that point carrying the ball. Edward Welch who was the head of the....

NS: Space Committee?

RC: ....Space Council had primary responsibility with Justice and the Administration. FCC's role was obviously ancillary, because they were an independent regulatory agency . We were

Once the law was in place. They had all these bright young people in this office of Satellite
. So that's where I started : with drafting things with Katzenbach and Loevinger. and I think it's very fair to say that the FCC's record on regulating AT&T was zero. the first draft bylaws for COMSAT. the view -.kind of the experts to try to advise people. according to the individual . Then... They hadn't done a damn thing worth talking about.held corporation . Shortly after the Satellite Act
was established .
They wanted the carriers to be able to get together and have kind of a common .. and so it was with
reluctance that they proceeded to--not only go along they didn't have an option obviously--but to work towards the creation of a COMSAT . They did not want a COMSAT created. I think the
overall policy attitude of the FCC was that they were sorry that COMSAT was created . Because you look at 1962.
NS: What was the FCC's view at that point? How did they envision this nascent organization?
RC: Well. but at least it had me there at the beginning . the Common Carrier Bureau created an office of Satellite Communications and we were to regulate COMSAT. I think that
the attitude of most of the regulators was a really interesting one. the first draft Articles of Incorporation for COMSAT.and not uncommonly in a democracy anyway-the view varied .

NS: So what you're saying is they had technical expertise. I'm saying this now because.. So the first thing we tended to do was overwrite rules and regulations to COMSAT. I mean Charyk's expertise is aerospace: building satellites. So. I sent a questionnaire out asking the other officers : " What kind of company are we? What business are we
. running a company.
RC: Yeah. When I was director of Corporate Planning. it reflected my attitude at COMSAT as an officer many years later. And I mean. reconizance satellites and things that he did at the Air Force and so on. because my view of the initial COMSAT management and directors was they probably needed all the help they could get--including rules and regulations. There wasn't any inherent expertise in the telecommunications industry represented on the Board of Directors or Incorporators of COMSAT or in the person of Joe Charyk and Leo Welch.Communications hell bent to do things right this time. and Welch had business experience that was very impressive. Neither one of them had communications operating experience.. but neither one of them had anything to bear on a communications company.. I'm not saying this because I worked at COMSAT subsequently. as I look back. I mean Joe Charyk certainly had some kind of technical expertise being scientist.

You would have thought everybody would have said. They had had rules and regulations dealing with all of the carriers . the answers were unbelievable. for example .
RC: Needed because there was expertise [at the FCC] in areas of regulating a company in its financing. it's ironical to me that some of the
go back to the beginning . "Give them a chance. when they had FCC authority to overview raising of debt. in restrospect. I was critical at the time and I kept saying. although I think the motivation of some of the young Turks .in?" And as late as 1975. ( which I will have to include myself among at the time) was a little too zealous
. and you'd say. "What does that do for the shareholders? What's the bottom line from aerospace ? What have we built? What have we invented ?" Anyway. including
AT&T. People thought we were a
research and development company. in retrospect.tech and engineering in aerospace and leaders of the way." No way .
NS: So you're saying that the company actually needed that kind of regulation. They had experience with debt equity ratios and
the problems that some carriers encountered when they went too far. in high . and COMSAT had nil.
FCC people whom I worked with and for for and who. I think they were right." In fact. So. we're overdoing it. "We're a communications company .

their contribution was
not so bad.
. The FCC took the position officially ( which I think was wrong) that COMSAT should not go ahead and contract to build Early Bird and should not conclude international arrangements creating INTELSAT until they got their stock out. and under contract we paid ITT ." And then we finally said. So it was intriguing. we did all the studies I could
got a point on Early Bird." because. it sounds like an experiment worth doing .. " Oh. go right down the list . hey. "
inhouse.because of the absence of regulation of other carriers. We would go up there all the time. we were writing regulations on financing. "Well if COMSAT wants to try this Early Bird thing. That point me into contact with COMSAT when it was Tregaron." Once the FCC had said that. you're committing money. The international arrangements were a source of revenue: partners coming in and paying their share. It should be medium altitude or. So what we were doing. Lockheed . "Don't include international arrangements . they
could not continue to say. '62/'63. we think you've Ok. low altitude. because we wrote regulations from an antitrust point of view and so on and so forth.
"Synchronous satellites won't go. the FCC said .
and everybody came back and said. The reason being that there would not be a duly elected Board of Directors representing shareholders before that . TRW. which is kind of ironical because shortly thereafter . so their motivation may not have been pure . very early. well.

. .
NS: So what you' re saying is they really saw it as a government agency which had to be regulated. but every meeting we had at COMSAT. .
NS: For example.saw me among the really nutsies with overdoing procurement regulations. broader view--were willing to step back. That's how far we went in writing the first draft of the procurement regs.. they got so God damn frustrated. I wanted to focus on getting the international system and the international partnership put together.. believe me. of course. I was
relatively cautious compared to my FCC brethren.
I mean it was overkill . I mean. I knew that a lot depended on my credibility with COMSAT. is that the senior people at the FCC--being older. you could never buy anything. if they .
RC: The reason being.
RC: Okay. oh yeah. a little wiser...we wrote procurement regulations that were bizarre. you had to go out and competitive bid for pencils.
I mean . really hands-on.NS: I have you on sign in sheets coming in almost everyday. The thing that
was intriguing.
RC: Yeah.

The commitments from Karlsruhe in 1963.
.
Ed Istvan. engineer. really pressured AT&T and the CEPT countries. to try 150 telephone circuits.. "How are we going to get circuits?" The FCC and the government strong-armed AT&T for 150 circuits. a little later. kept changing
their positions. he was brought in somewhat. they said.no give and take. the government." We said "B".NS: Why?
RC: Because these people don't know anything." and we finally said. who was considered to be a confrontational kind of manager. Lou Meyer. there wasn't a COMSAT in existence when we. we said "A. I mean." Then they needed circuits. at one point when they said. And COMSAT. "These people don't know anything. Some of his ideas on how to put together the system were kind of strange. who seemed to be pretty solid. but he was all over the lot. "Well let us go with Early Bird.
NS: Although they only tried 60 ultimately. who was seen at the FCC as being probably a brilliant. The attitude was." Welch was not around.. under Charyk . "Ok. For example. Ok. The initial team consisted of people we had contact with were guys like Syd Metzger. but highly theoretical." he said "Anti-A.

Charyk threw a bomb on the government.RC: Well.
NS: So here you also have Johnson. "That's the first thing COMSAT
r"
should be doing.
RC: Before Johnson. At that time. I was not only at the FCC. "Well. Well. I'm not down playing it. but it's all we got. I was the Executive Secretary for the joint Katzenbach-Weisner Committee that was called the Ad Hoc Committee on Satellite Communications. Put [up] some telephone circuits. we understood that. that's the first. I mean everybody. they committed in a letter to 150 and they only put 60 up." Their attitude was kind of a very aerospace oriented in the sense of the fascination with the technology.priority--to make sure our synchronous satellite tests out--and we're also working real hard on getting some business from the carriers. but he knew what he wanted to do. Would it work? The technology was a [inaudible]. because that was critical. that committee
. ok. A lot of things changed with Johnson. That's not because I worked for him for eight years. It got a lot better. In the middle of this. DOD." We didn't hear that part coming too often. It was through that committee which involved the Bureau of the Budget (which is the predecessor to OMB). We didn't hear the business part of COMSAT or somebody acting as a businessman saying. you're going in business. We kept thinking.

RC: In the middle of a lot of this going on. before Johnson comes on board. and somebody from DOD. because the Bureau of the Budget said we weren't being tough enough on COMSAT. just after Charyk's on board. Charyk decides that he doesn't want a civilian satellite
. the predecessor of OTP. and somebody from the office of Telecommunications Management. We would review everything. crushed an Assistant Director of the Bureau of the Budget. I guess it was in those days. their representation at those meetings was John Johnson. the predecessor of NTIA) and the White House. and somebody from elsewhere.
NS: On what issues?
RC: On every issue. The debates in that committee were endless. I don't know if COMSAT ever knew that.reviewed every meeting with COMSAT. General O'Connell would go to meetings at COMSAT with the FCC and they would come back and report to this committee. but people from the government. NASA had. at the end we had to virtually have a vote in the committee as to whether to proceed with the Articles of Incorporation with COMSAT which the Justice Department was responsible for initially. (DTM. Ok?NS: Ok. rather nastily but very effectively. in early '63. let's say somebody from State. Katzenbach.

Charyk lost all credibility.
in other words.
NS: Right. it's going to be black box ... the government had to approve every borrowing--and Then they
then they say they want the money for Early Bird . then they change their mind on that. and say.
RC: . he wants a hybrid system to service DOD and the international community. these guys at one time say they don't want to do anything internationally until they get a permanent Board of Directors. Western Europe .
set up.. within the government.system. say they don ' t want Early Bird .
NS: Why is that?
RC: How can you get foreign partners . "Now we can't tell you what's going to go on half of the satellite. when
you're in a government position and you're trying to give the lead to an organization . I mean . ..that was not a period of
but even in a period of detente how could you
realistically pull something like that off? Our view was.
At that point . I mean . you look for consistency and clarity
.." detente even ... They say they don't want to spend any money or raise any money --we approved every line of credit . talk about..simultaneously .
meetings with the Soviet Union.

. set priorities . company . this is speculation on my part ). A lot of that changed when Leo Welch arrived fulltime at COMSAT.
how much of this do you think Sam Harris .. that kind of
came from people like Phil Graham . and I've got to wait until
the chief technology expert . you ' re just kidding yourself. really three: one was going the other one was
to happen . " I'm here as ok.
I mean are you certain that this came from
or was this sort of a confusion on the Board?
RC: I think it was an interplay with the Board and I think even Leonard Marks and these other people . and we went up and down .. this guy [Welch ] comes .
is I guess around the Fall of '63 (my memory may not be that good. lack of direction ? Charyk himself .. everybody had their
But you know."
When Welch came.. Charyk was known to come on Board first--Welch had to clear up a lot of affairs left over from his directorships and so on--and Charyk was saying (probably . there were two missions . see the same purpose . When Johnson came.
NS: Let me ask you a question . If and all
you expect 15 people to simultaneously get religion . which was go sell your stock . this is a commercial
Boards are not supposed to take the leadership. they started to.. which
you could see it.of purpose . own little agenda . I think it's around there ) he took on the view that in addition .
I mean.
That's what management is supposed to do.
.

Allen Throop didn't know anything about regulation either. government and COMSAT.
RC: Well.
RC: Welch never understood it. There was no General Counsel at that time. because we could all agree.. When Johnson came on board. I mean. what our priorities were. and that' s all he worked on.. Early Bird.already underway. Welch relied on Johnson for a lot more than international matters.
NS: Although Welch was not a big friend of this government regulation of the company. I don ' t know what he'll tell you. is he still alive?
. and the third one was get the international partnership. and he was very difficult to deal with. And he would take. From that point on. I mean. Johnson may not tell you that. He had never lived in a industry.
NS: Well . I mean... Allen Throop was hired because he was a securities expert. when we talked about procurement regulations. he's the guy that hired me .. it was really a lot easier . in the meetings with Allen. it was awkward as hell because he was a brilliant lawyer.. but he never understood it. there was Allen Throop.

." These one liners used to come out all the time. and this was while I was in the goverment I used to hear
that . but he's very old now.. really funny. procurement.
Welch used to say." It was really delightful in a sense . So their
priorities got better. NASA. [Welch would say] "I don't know about you guys in the government. or has been out of the country.
. as late as March 1964 and. Johnson.. it was. [He is a] brilliant guy and a likable human being. Gilbert Carter. was aware of this and had been in that world.. or anything else.
RC: You've got to interview a guy called W. because he'd been the Department of the Air Force. Yet. government service. but he'd never come in contact with regulations.NS: Yes. DOD.. "I know Johnny won't give the store away. but Johnny won't give the store away. has Johnson really confided in you about what happened at the COMSAT Incorporators meeting in June of 1964?
NS: I haven't taked to him yet. He's going to watch you. he's out of the country. and I was impressed that the mind was still working.
RC: Last time I saw him was about six years ago. and yet he talked the kind of tough nut negotiating kind of language that got Welch's confidence..

in my mind. He was there physically. let alone regulated -. one of the half dozen things he did of value to COMSAT. because he'd been a Chief Executive Officer. he knew. Welch." initialed . who had never been an internationalist either. and Welch
ad interim . We got eight or nine. right or wrong. " Maybe we shouldn ' t proceed with
This was after we had them negotiated and subject to cleaning them up. Welch did. The government sent National Guard planes to bring them into the meeting. You don't spend six months of international credibility. that you never can do things like that. He was sitting right outside the room.. these agreements .RC: Where Charyk
did not want to proceed with the interim agreements?
NS: No. and the reason Charyk was reflecting the varied
attitudes on the Board.
RC: Did he tell you what happened at the June 1964 meeting?
NS: I had an extensive conversation with him.. there were Board members who were saying that [ the agreements should not be signed ].
RC: Go back if you want to and check it.NS: I did. he did not mention that.
said.Charyk was saying. a
. We couldn ' t get a quorum of the Incorporators to approve the agreements we had signed. I was not..

not at Tregaron.
RC: The Board said. We didn't like a lot of it. side and then say .
. My He said." So at that meeting. he was a COMSAT representative to the interim committee [ The ICSCI.
marching orders were terrific. I joined COMSAT in March of '65 . sir .everybody negotiates in good faith . yes sir ." That's how far it went . Japan . There were no
more quarrels with what we were in agreements with.government and a new corporation bringing in foreign partners --Australia . 20th of August . but they disliked a lot more than we disliked
on the U.
" Yes. it was a great job . I'm told. Canada.
and Carter who was sitting in the anteroom at that
meeting at the Washington Hotel. Needless to say. the Western Europeans -. " Joe. or both of us resign . At that time . at a neutral site--that Welch said ..
NS: Their backs were up against the wall. I think it was--that's where the COMSAT Board meeting was held. " Maybe we'd better wait until we get some directors on Board . and into effect on the from the government
I left the COMSAT scene ."
and we proceeded to
get the agreements negotiated .. and went to USIA and worked on other matters. either you and I get this Board of Incorporators to endorse these agreements now. I joined as a
personal assistant to John Johnson. General O ' Connell is
there are only two people who really know : dead .
signed.S.
point of view.

my primary focus for a couple of years was how to get INTELSAT .] "Who is this guy saying everythings got to come through a coordination process?" We had no procedures. and act for me. who is a friend to this day .. and develop positions ."You know as much about what has to be done here as I do. manager . and then he became
director of international development shortly after that--"to get more members and so on. whether it ' s manager . who was also a personal assistant to Johnson . [He would
say. nothing in the corporation on that side .
no office -.typical of a start . I've never
. and absolute veto on all decisions. but at that time. desk . When I left COMSAT I joined a company and I started new companies and so on . [It was my job to see that ] COMSAT's role.. The corporation.up internal
procedures at COMSAT which made me very few friends with Lou Meyer..up up kind of company--and
from that point on . with its. " So I started with the sixth I came to work." (who's up in New York now) and a few other people who were hired: Ed Istvan . So I started off setting . to work. because I'm going to spend a lot of
time on the road with George Cristy. I've
been with start-up since then. I had no
meeting or fifth meeting of the ICSC . ( which wasn ' t called INTELSAT then) to work. at
that point 61 % vote. or whether it's as investor--for the
moment we're throwing it hodgepodge together--your job is coordinate and get policy out and get papers in. you're in charge of making sure that our input as COMSAT. in a sense .

but you've got to do that. I've worked in the government and that's mostly what they 're concerned with is administration.
NS: Instinctively. I mean they're a pain in the neck to do and.I don't like them either. the basics were missing in that place.. once again.
NS: Although..
NS: To what do you attribute that?
RC: Most of these people came from the government. because you've got people coming in. because people have to have a place to sit down. nobody wants . and somebody has to be charged with that responsibility for the company and there has to be a system where when somebody is hired over in engineering.
NS: In what sense?
RC: Namely .
.
RC: Yes. that goes into the system and a guy goes out to gets a desk and some chairs. You have to have somebody in charge of offices.experienced what I experienced then. that there weren ' t people on board who understood
that instantly you had to do certain things.. You had to have personnel policies.

yeah. procurements.
RC: Well . Meyer came with Charyk and initially did almost everything : finance .. my offer letter came from Johnson.
NS: Well. he probably was. they had Greer. I mean . But he had been a finance budget type at Air Force. even from the very beginning who moved limosines and set up. Charyk didn't get concerned with administration.. But it was a little surprising in March of '65--seeing they had moved to 1900 L Street and 1800 L Street..RC: Well. I just thought it was going to be fun.at that point--it was surprising to come to work and having no personnel place to go to. personnel.. there's nobody to stop you. ok? I had no idea (and I was young enough not to care) what the benefits were . and it was.. I'm giving you the downside... So he really did everything.... I don't really know. They finally brought people in. budgeting. but I had been hired by Welch and Johnson. nobody telling you anything.
and I guess
that is what he was doing.. Istvan was an Army colonel and a thinker.
he was supposed to be the facilitator . The upside is you can get a lot done and go pretty far in doing things.
...
NS: Well.

through '68.RC: Right. and it was very exhilarating. come differences.
NS: Well let's get to that a little bit later along. when so many things were happening simultaneously: new members coming in. When you finished the meeting..... which we'd never planned on.
NS: I mean . the stock offering is finished now. you can just carve out your own territory. which gave us a chance to get INTELSAT II started. and it paid for half the satellite system. The ICSC met between six and eight times a year which meant we were on a constant cycle. As the ICSC grew.. Let's go back a little bit.
RC: It was fun . What became INTELSAT III was the concept of the global system . we've got a Board of Directors.. then the windfall of the Gemini Apollo business from NASA. the first couple of years particularly with Early Bird going up and being successful. and it was creative. and INTELSAT II was kind of shoehorn in thing which was very good for revenue production--unexpected. All that was '65 to '67. and a lot of things happened. and you started to get ready for the next one. and with diversity. you've got the half and half
. you got diversity of voices. That was great. In the years of '65.

operation going. They tried to block us in Brazil. I could go on
When we tried to encourage membership in INTELSAT and ITT blocked us. and so on. from
your perspective . people don ' t realize that ITT. and on .
I don ' t think the carriers did a heck of a lot
on the international side.
blistering letters going back and forth between COMSAT. what is your perception about what the common carriers brought to that equation ? What was AT&T doing. They didn ' t want to have instant access internationally because most calls were routed through New York. Peru. And although we all think of the British and the French in Africa . had tremendous investments and control in a lot of different parts of the world. you still had
. as a cable and wireless with the British
flag running communications systems in the Arab world and in the Caribbean . the late 60's.
NS: Why. and the State Department . of all the American companies . We had
putting up an earth stations . what was their interst?
RC: Because they own all these national telephone systems. ITT did a lot of negative things. Chile . As late as ' 65. it was an era where communications colonialism was still popular. to encourage the development of maybe ICSC and to pave the way?
RC: Not much . and ITT.

I felt that the individuals that I had exposure to.
NS: But let me ask you a question now. was seen to be constructive. but who was at State) John Johnson. I think. and Buenos Aires.. Chile. at least in the Western Hemisphere yet.. They only wanted to deal with AT&T. AT&T. who was the guy that
. in those days--own a percentage of the cables. high frequency radio up and back. a very savvy guy. Harold Botkin. they were not constructive. That was the first deregulatory thing that the Commission had probably ever done in the common carrier.
RC: AT&T. there had been by 1964 the first three TAT's and TAT IV was approved in '64 by the FCC.. and I were the trio that went around to various countries. who was at that time General Counsel for AT&T and very sensitive about international issues. the carriers were thinking about
cables.. one of the things that I had to do as an FCC spokesman in the negotiations
in '64 in Europe. Let me check a perception. Secondly. Argentina through New York.. There weren't cables. In fact. I was always being asked questions about TAT IV and why the Commission had let the IRC's--the record carriers.to route a percentage of the calls between Santiago. we had a road show that consisted of Gil Carter (who now works for INTELSAT. who were primarily Horace Moulton. ITT was
clear..
as it filtered to the staffs.

let me ask you one question here. Welch looked to Dingman tremendously.
was a major force on the COMSAT Board..
NS: What about Dingman?
RC: Dingman. I know it's not true. I think. does that. I had a lot of faith that Moulton was.
NS: Why not?
RC: In fact. I had less faith that he was really trying to help satellites.
RC: I don't think that's true..
NS: Ok.
NS: That's my reading of it.. their participation in Early Bird.
RC: A very major force--but on business matters.negotiated all the traffic arrangements for AT&T was on the Board. essentially. A number of people have said that it was because of Dingman that we were able to get the Europeans to go along with. across the board. Give me a why not.
NS: Well.
.

we're going to need tremendous political commitment . "We understand your position . and Botkin. and so on. The reason it was not widely talked about is COMSAT had wanted.S . " And Rusk said. but that
is for the President of the of the United States.RC: It was the pressure of the U. through the Secretary of State to decide . We don't want the politics in this. "We don ' t want an intergovernmental agreement.S. Government put on the Europeans. was not about the let them have it. under the leadership of Dingman . and the U. If we're going to use
outerspace ( because the Russians arg still fighting the UN on
. And he [Welch ] said. Moulton. through this [the ad hoc] committee .it was INTELSAT I Early Bird -. S.
NS: So they wanted a bilateral agreements?
RC: Right . Government that caused all of the Europeans to go into INTELSAT and hence since the first paragraph of the INTELSAT agreements said that there will be an experimental / operational satellite -. COMSAT and Welch expected it and had a session with Dean Rusk. that if we're
going to create a single global system .that was the commitment and I know the pressure that the U. Our perception is. and we never told them what we were doing through embassies. which I did attend. Government . to conclude classic agreements with no intergovernmental treaty at all.

That's how we ended up with two interrelated agreements.S. They would have to pay their share of I've forgotten what Article I of the agreement went on. This whole world of the foreign office and government was a world that AT&T never dealt with. Ok? Not the CEPT.
NS: So you're saying it was diplomatic end of it. government did was it spent a lot of time sending teams around to deal with something called the CETS.S.
NS: So they just sort o.resolutions about keeping civilian use and private enterprise out of outerspace) we're going to need an intergovernmental commitment. It's those agreements that committed these countries to pay their share of Early Bird. I mean it merged. (The European Conference and Telecommunications Satellites) which consisted of foreign offices.
RC: And it all came together. Government so quickened in the interest and discussed in such detail with the foreign offices. but we had
.
really separated out into the
RC: The U. that they very cleverly caused in each of the other countries the PTTs to not be able to do a damned thing.f followed along behind." And so what the U. the diplomatic end of it.

point that AT&T produced the PTTs and the European participation . was the driving force. I don't know who paid.. It varied from country to country . I Their participation at this Karlsruhe. their interest . obviously.
Germany meeting in early '63 or '64.
. it was their foreign office that had the representation. through the Embassy here. from my observations before I joined COMSAT .. the PTT never came to the meetings. there . and working with Johnson-
after I joined COMSAT . The Government of Spain .to assume at that
might be convenient . But I
would not want to go so far as to say they deserve even a majority. we don ' t know who paid. with the State Department -.no more than $200 million and so on and so forth. that was done under Dingman's direction to his people .there was no COMSAT participation there--twhere he famous commitment for another 150 circuits. So I think it would be very inaccurate to assume--it but very inaccurate -. what I believe. I don't think it happened that way at all. somebody knows who paid. represented
and they maybe they made the telephone company
pay their share .. Some countries didn ' t even have their PTTS participate. In Switzerland. The institutional arrangement caused these people to have to pay in.estimated sums of what it might cost -. So he was very helpful
I think AT&T tried to be helpful throughout.
think AT&T helped . That is.

the manager issue. It was the head of
every delegation. for COMSAT.
RC: We wrote them.or the government
accepted--and there were things that the government insisted on. and we had a lot of friction.
Head of every delegation.
NS: I'm saying in terms of determining the specific U. There was tremendous friction in the early period . who led that negotiation? COMSAT or State?
RC: State. in the the negotiations of the interim agreements. We then had State Department people talk to COMSAT. There were things that COMSAT wanted
that the State Department accepted -.
.
RC: Policy papers?
NS: Yeah. and they negotiated with COMSAT .S. and cleared them in the ad hoc committee.NS: Who. Johnson really saved a lot of it
NS: Over what issues?
RC: Voting.
interests.

NS: Although COMSAT got what it wanted on the manager issue."
NS: And did that ultimately ended up to be true?
RC: You betcha. I think I can remember. they won they won on the veto. So there were very senior people in the government said. The government wanted that to make sure that we could make fast decisions and move ahead with the
. "Let them do it. And I had to be the guy negotiating for COMSAT trying to hold the fort and keep more of the manager year's later.
RC: Yeah. The government wanted the veto too. foreign policy interests. "Look. you can remember government people saying. In five years. they'll lose more than they ever deserve to lose. But yeah. and let there be an International Secretariat just for languages and conferences." If we had given another inch. we will still successfully negotiate these agreements and they'll pay the price. At least for the first five years. In fact if you were to be a cynic. that's not an issue of criticality to government interest. I ended up being the beneficiary of the
somewhat unenlightened COMSAT policy early on. I mean . it wasn't just COMSAT. or if you could remember some things. they'll hang
themselves. if they want to be that hardheaded. they could have kept more longer.

. who was Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under Griffith Johnson. But every delegation . and so on . early on the first guy that lead any discussions was W . when Welch kind of dropped out because he obviously had confidence in Johnson and so did the Board. chaired by the State Department . Michael Bloomingthal.until about April. and Johnson then became the key COMSAT man. I don't remember why--other matters.off was in February in '64 in Rome -.then we had the usual delegation gamemanship that all countries go through. when he came he was a deputy head of delegation.
By the time Johnson came on. GAT and something else.
NS: Exactly. Later Abe Chayes was the head of delegation and deputy heads of delegation would then consist of either Welch or Charyk. He passed from the scene. plus -.if that's what they got -.global system . and probably on a few occasions when Bill Henry became FCC Chairman . we'd have another State Department person as deputy head. Delegation meetings were We developed common positions
on who would speak . and that situation continued from roughly the beginning of '64 when negotiations started really--first kick . Griffith Johnson . In fact. we found it a lot
easier to work together in the drafting of common positions. He didn't do anything. the first head of the delegation was G. who was the Assistant Secretary of State for Economic Affairs.

the latter part June / July ( except for
that real blip which almost pulled back by COMSAT) was fairly
. for example. The question was. but they were at least more harmonious. I got elected chairman of that working group because I was reasonable . In May and June of 1964 . COMSAT
said I was acceptable as a chief spokesman for the U.
NS: You mean under Johnson?
RC: Yeah . The internal negotiations were still tough . COMSAT was very worried that the government might make political concessions on voting and some other things. and what the positions should be.RC: We had fights all the time: who should be head of delegation -. so Johnson wanted to put all his attention in that session. And yet. Delegation for the special agreement and so I was the chief spokesman.
because I'd been watching it go the other way all the time. We had our roles reversed . And basically. two parts :
the political -. was one of the the negotiations broke into
ironies. Which was really kind of funny.everytime there was a delegation--and who should speak .the special agreement.
I mean the ultimate.S.talking about the intergovernmental
part--and the operating -. I think . they were worried about the special agreement of the commercial arrangements .

. Fundamentally.
So you weren't involved
in whether they were being regulated too much or not enough or what was being held back ? RC: I was involved in maybe two issues in my first year and my advice was not heeded on either one. I guess to be more specific..of my job. I want to go over two areas..existent because I went
into the international area exclusively at COMSAT and in '65 and '66 in particular .
the flip . " Hey. I was so involved with that I hardly ever came across any [regulatory] issues.. by the nature . because.
RC: Well . And then also the actual management of INTELSAT or the ISSC . almost." But that was really very infrequent.
NS: Let's talk a little bit about .
NS: So it was really very separate .
NS: What were they?
... One is that flip in your role from being regulator to regulatee .
talk about that dual. I was.harmonious. he used to be in tariffs .. walled . Welch would call me to a meeting occasionally when they had a tariff issue.flop for me was non .out of the rest of the company. Let's
under Johnson . and he'll understand
something and we need all the help we can get here.

"What are you talking about. will be like any other temporary investment as soon as you can get a better yield on your investment.RC: One issue was the FCC. Charyk. their interests are antithetical to ours. Throop." And I said. which was not permitted to be included in their rate base for earnings purposes. "They are going to pull-out because they're going to make a lot of money. Anyway. Welch.. "The carrier's investment in COMSAT. We took the strong position. I took the strong position--Johnson did not take the same position at that time--that we should go for it. The reason being. I remember saying that and people said. Of course the carriers didn't like that. they'll sell their stock.. I don't understand what you're saying. I didn't believe the carriers were into COMSAT for the long run. Johnson did too.RC: And I called the ITT one before it happened. He said. and some others. I was involved in a meeting on that and Johnson was too--in fact we were probably the only two--Istvan."
NS: As ITT did very early on. much to the surprise of a number of us at COMSAT. I think by that time they had hired Larry DeVore. we should fight to keep those earth stations even though the carriers would be unhappy with us and we'd have trouble on our Board of Directors." and
. had decided to let COMSAT own the earth stations in its initial rulemaking.

. after I'd left the
. I knew what was going on. if he had dressing downs or fights with Welch.I mean. I'm still going to Latin America next month. Unless the rate base. He told me very little. what incentive did they have? They had no incentive to look at cables and satellites with equal degree of interest. ATT counts it.. what the hell. it's investment in COMSAT. He called the ITT pull-out.
why would the carriers. and COMSAT's rate base . I felt that the others would pull out. unless the FCC permitted a double rate base in effect. Unless the FCC would put it in the rate base. let's put it this way Rich.." Johnson is that kind of guy. but Johnson is a very self-contained man. I knew that from the outside.Johnson was in the middle of this ugliness in Latin America. boy." Ok. He was the guy that was constantly being pointed to by Ted Westfall of ITT. Ok? And that wasn't going to happen. just enough to understand that. I mean. "Oh. and I could put enough together to say. it must have been a pretty hot session .
NS: Well actually they had a counter-interest. He used to come back from trips and have to go in and argue with Welch and it was pretty.... I mean AT&T certainly did
RC: Right. He's less
direct and less talkative than perhaps I might be. "Well. he
wouldn't tell me much of it.

The carriers were fighting it tooth and nail. (this is one perception. but subtly apparently. In fact. that couldn't possibly happen."
The second issue that popped up was in May/June of 1964. by that time I was the alternate U. it may not even be accurate because I'm giving you one end of phone calls from Paris and we sent telexes back and forth. We knew the kind of pressure he was getting from
Dingman and Charyk caved in.. and Johnson and I said .. The ninth meeting of the ICSC was in Paris. They had decided that we could deal directly on authorized user with the networks and hence by inference with the government at least. The reason I remember it is that Johnson and I. right as late as July 11th or 10th. it was late June and it continued. and some of them aren't our friends anyway and their own self-interests are not necessarily synonymous with us in the long run. our ninth meeting." And what really happened was. as far as I know... COMSAT management had been threatened rather strongly. Welch seemed to be very undecided what to do. "This could save us.. It's our only chance to retail. One of us was constantly running to the phone to call Welch. and. on the first issue I said. go for it. Rep and we had a meeting. because in the long run we need that. "Since the carriers are going to pull-out anyway. to talk to Welch because the issue was the FCC had surprised us pleasantly another time.FCC. if you look back
.S. just knowing the players and the FCC policies. So.

But COMSAT decided it was more politic to be carriers ' as regard the networks .
RC: COMSAT had set the precedent itself . ..
NS: So are you saying that in essence.. we don't want to deal with them . and Early Bird went in operational late June of that year and within. and we had to take the voice circuits off of Early
Bird.. then that COMSAT made themselves the carriers ' carrier?
RC: COMSAT had the option .
By then you ' re saying it was locked up.
NS: Right . at least
and when two years later the 30
circuits case came up. "No. you know .
And the precedent
was almost as importantly set in the minds of the industry." COMSAT pulled back . because it ' s not so much the chip on the shoulder theory. you don't know these things. carrier.
Whether it would have held up.You know..
would the Commission have come up with a final rule from its interim. and COMSAT said.at least with the networks .
the issue arose because we finally had a television request. but everybody watches how you behave the first time you face a
....historically . the Commission made an interim decision letting COMSAT deal direct. It gave up the right to Since it was the first time
deal..

. he was head of the satellite office on both earth station ownership (and Strassburg felt the same way) and on the
authorized user issue with the networks. too--he felt he stuck his neck out for COMSAT.. how they think you're going to behave thereafter. And he did.. but he's shrewd as hell. because the authorized user decision obviously really works against them later on. a guy named Asher Ende.
NS: Yes. and even in '64. And I know by '66. I know him. and they spent a lot of years unravelling it in
recent times. They start to figure out from how they read. he was saying he was very wary of COMSAT..
NS: So you're saying that essentially what ultimately boxed COMSAT in was really their own work at the very beginning.
. or their perception and understanding of your behavior.
RC: .
RC: Right.. even with the fight in '66 on the
30 circuits was the result of an FCC staff--at that time.who is the world's biggest egomaniac. It's my view (and maybe I'm isolated in that view) that the continuation of the carriers' carrier role..crisis under pressure.

If you went in and said.. I
remember several times we were talking about rate base regulation.. and simple and. "Leo. There was a perception that the highest levels of COMSAT management would not necessarily back their vice presidents because by that time we had Bruce Matthews. on the
other hand the carriers aren't going to like this. but I need your backing.. blah. if you could present to him an issue forcefully.. or is that too broad?
RC: Too broad.. he'd say to me.. blah. 1. "Come again ?" He was a little hard of hearing." What's that? Tell me
. blah. "Well. in general . "Come again? Always. blah. but blah. and Welch was so out of
it. So it was not just on the authorized user issue . I think the perception -.and Throop was still there... and we'll have these issues. we can't back off on this.. too." he was lost.I'll be very blunt about it--was that Charyk was so weak . and boy it's hard to know.NS: So what you're really saying is that there was a perception that when COMSAT came up against the carriers that they would cave.. 3". Throop--I remember a meeting where that man was almost in tears on the earth station ownership.. and say. basically. he didn't understand. 2. "It's in the
interest of the shareholders to do this because. he had to rely so heavily. finance. Because. He fought so hard to have us try and keep earth station ownership. or it's not just ." you'd get it.

Tell me why
it's in our interest to serve the networks . He keeps multiplying options: on the one
NS: On the other. But I feel very strongly. I got the point...
directly . he is
know the personality .again . later on . "Where do you stand Joe?" "I feel strongly both ways . " Ok." No he .
NS: Yeah. and he keeps going up and getting it complicated. extraordinarily articulate.
he's bright as hell... he's the perfect systems analyst . you He is not that kind of person...
You see. He would
Now if you've interviewed Joe Charyk.
RC: So Welch turns to him and is lost. hand. Charyk didn't
understand that Welch needed him and that's the absence of
. I think you made a good point .." " Then what ' s the bottom line?" "The bottom line is not today ." And he ' d say . academic . hand.
RC: On the other hand. but
he is one of these people who is constantly . " respond to that . the bottom line is telephone circuits
The bottom line is the government business later on.. sir." " Can you quantify that?" "No sir.. i don't I don't think there's a lot of money .
Do you really think
there is a lot of business ?" " No.

one. It's not that there is something wrong with the guy. the other hand. "On the one hand.
NS: That's a strong statement. "I analyzed this thoroughly. He didn't understand that what Welch needed him to do to say. The only people who I can
139
think of who I would recall making the comment I'm about to say to you are Matthews. we are all in agreement--with the exception of Joe and he's going to speak up and give his view--that we should do it for these reasons."
RC: Yeah.Bruce Matthews said it.. I don't think he did though.. was we
all knew Welch was going to leave next year and that Charyk felt that by cottoning up to AT&T.
4
.".business experience. He saw himself as the kind of continuing being the technology consultant. That was said. maybe Myer.. Joe. Throop might have also.. and possibly Johnson. two three. who regrettably is dead. I've had everybody.
NS: "I'll give you this." That's all he had to do. because I didn't see it personally) people who. There are people who accuse Joe Charyk (but I am not one of them. well. the following view: that the reason Charyk caved in July of of '64. we need your backing. and that's all I can tell you... you give us that.. . he would be the candidate for the Chairman and CEO. it blew it.

and guidance . not helped him. I mean Charyk is very smooth .
NS: It works for and against you. he'll sell out to somebody else later.
because Dingman was such a shrewd cat.. the first reaction on the part of a Dingman would be. not analysis ... But if that was his motivation..
RC: It would have hurt him. always has been. and policy. it is true . they had a lot of real-time issues on their hands. At meetings he was infuriating to those of us who wanted decisions . when you look back. the executives were feeling their way. and leadership . or whatever . It was. now. " If he ' s selling out to me to
get something now. I really don't
.. I mean I've been in fights with COMSAT here and they're 22% shareholder of INTELSAT. if
perceptable from my point of view. But that's the only nasty aspect of the whole issue..RC: That was said by people." I mean. unfortunately. Secondly . I don't want him as Chairman of a company I'm putting in $30 million dollars investment .
it's probably the biggest mistake he ever made. I cannot tell you that I ever saw that. it was not it probably. you could understand a natural reluctance to compound their problems with a major fight--with 50% of their shareholders--you don ' t take. the company was young. and I'm not the type ( I'm a lot older too.

" I'm walking into a buzzsaw with 50% of my shareholders by taking this position.give as much of a damn about things. that they felt that decisions were being rammed down their thrgat .
RC: Or running companies. I. it
was unfortunate because the company boxed itself in. is that in the interest of the company?" So.
NS: Or running companies . at the time . was mismanaged. You say . that the ICSC. I don ' t have to be Sigmund Freud to tell you that you are very different from Joe Charyk and that Johnson and you represent a different method and style of dealing with people than Joe Charyk is. there could have been. and a lot of well-rationized reasons for being cautious . and a lot of good reasons .a management study -. that the member nations were feeling bullied. there were.in which they said that they felt from their whatever analysis that they do.
.
Or dealing with individuals. that they felt they were not being listened to. I
came across a study which was done by Booz -Allen in '68. Looking back. I'm sure . because I'm a different stage of life and career ) but you can understand a certain hesitation. and that there was a potentially explosive situation. think it was -.
NS: Let's talk a little bit about this issue of cautiousness.

. They made me Director of International Arrangements at the end of '65 and
. Johnson said. we were ramming things down people's throats. I wrote memos and rewrote the rules of procedure to permit free elections of chairman. consistently. His term was for one year." He backed me. We got a God damn veto. Who should be Chairman of the ICSC? Johnson was Chairman when I took over..
RC: Absolutely correct. I wrote those same memos internally. I'll give you the first issue. but we got overruled. "John. But Johnson was a key man. A hundred percent accurate perception. we put in managerial papers.. We said." I said. we've got to pay the price..I went in '68 and open the European office was I wanted to get out of my job that I was only in a year-and-a-half. you know we get an incompetent. the policies are not enlightened. We got our heads handed to us by Welch. Charyk sat on the side lines and never took a position.. "Well..they wouldn't have put it in quite those terms. now wait a minute.. saying (and so did Johnson).
RC: Johnson was overruled .
NS: But Johnson." You have to understand how it worked: one of the reasons I wanted desperately to go to Geneva at the end of '67 -. "It's so little to give up to get a sense of co-partnership in this organization.. half of them stink.

The way you do things can make up sometimes for the deficiencies. and somebody from COMSAT would come in and sit down--from the manager . I had lunch with him three weeks ago and I told him that again. People would raise points and he'd say. but in terms of the type of
. he was very weak inside COMSAT because he didn't
take good leadership positions. It was the manager that represented procurement. They would do incomplete analysis. a despot of
live a long time... which Myer did. It was the manager that were the engineers not representing the heavy cash
investment. every single paper was the manager . If you're not unusually enlightened. Believe it or not--inside COMSAT--because it was the manager that counted in Charyk's mind. you gotta be unusually enlightened. Here's how it worked in the ICSC: Johnson sat there as Chairman--written into the rules of procedure that he had to be Chairman--and he sat there and we had an agenda item up. if you want to
going to be a tyrant. we'll change our policy.S. is an exception--very nice easy going
personality. The manner of the people that were trotted regularly into that ICSC with a couple of exceptions: Bill Wood. But the U." Conversely. you got to at least seem to be friendly and likeable.the Alternate U. Rep from COMSAT was of no importance. "You're right. he would give and take. many years later. and we did not do good jobs.. If you're some kind. Rep. He was an absolute genius at hardball procurement and a klutz at international relations.S.

" And these people would come from all over the world . a year. Reiger. " We intend to do this unless you have strong objections
there are some things that disagree with this that we would want to take into account.. and then we were going to
implement it. let's have a discussion .. We always did things . he always waited too long to go fight inside COMSAT to get us to
. and he is a friend to this day and so I'm not saying anything that I didn't say when I worked for him. We're
telling you we've done it. was very good at it. in my judgment .
RC: Oh. things The methodology of how we presented
[ was] basically: "The manager ' s doing this.person to go through ICSC. we could easily have said -. it was true in every major issue. he never understood what they were talking about
because he thought in sliderule terms and these people were of different backgrounds . he helped that company enormously. who was the engineering guy.." "You could have done it that way. Johnson." instead of saying . So we're putting the paper before you.Myer appeared on a high percentage of items. six and eight times
NS: That was specifically true in procurement. Metzger . "this is to tell you we did it.we have a veto for Christ sake--We could have easily said. Jesus . many other people who appeared . He's [Meyer is] one of the few who's still around.

" I would say to myself. the first time I was so thrilled. [Johnson would say. OK? His attitude was one that. It was a thankless job in that sense. Rich I hear what you're saying." NS: I'm not so sure they like foreigners either. I tell you the whole procedures of the Board of the ICSC. "He doesn't understand either.
RC: By the time COMSAT started to ease up.] "To the extent I am perceived as constantly coming back as being the soft guy. which is to get another satellite procured and so on." I was constantly in warfare inside COMSAT in that job. and half the people in this organization and more are not-internationalists anyway. "What are you soft on the foreigners?" That's a terrific way to work inside an organization.
RC: They don't. So. I'm not going to have effectiveness and credibility inside COMSAT to get the job done in the interest of the foreigners and us.
NS: Sure. who had not analyzed something through. "It's bad enough I'm seen by the rest of this organization as a representative to these foreigners.lighten up. I rewrote. Because you were always negotiating and you would get lines from people who did not do their homework. and we got Jim McCormick--who by that
. but I can't implement it.

time who was different--a little too soft. very sensitive about these things. R&D in contrast to engineering... "You guys. personnel matters. We were already starting to prepare for the definitive arrangements negotiations.
." By the time we got that it was two years later.but very international. through his selection of people to speak on as disperate issues as finance. That came from the ICSC members asking for it. "That's what we get paid for..
NS: I wondered why that would have gotten done in the first place... In fact. it's on your head. it was
Booz -Allen's perception . procurement.
RC: . through Charyk indifference. (because the R&D people weren't as clever as Reiger) and when Reiger died." Johnson said. what happened is Johnson almost got his head handed to him for authorizing the Booz-Allen study. they basically foreshadowed the fact that the managerial role was going to be lost ... under United States directorship... I would say to you that needlessly. It's your responsibility if the decision-making in the ICSC gets screwed up because we don't have the Chairmanship. He agreed. to assume the responsibilty. the successors to Reiger.
NS: Very indecisive. it's on your head.

"I'm but don ' t play games with
going to give you my final position . I think that he was part of the problem . I ' ll stake it out and we'll fight for two days.
I'm going to tell you what I will compromise
on. John is always negotiating instead of talking. because I know what the results are going to be. because I would gain so much more on other issues. Johnson's inclination -.RC: It came from a ground swell of ICSC members saying something should be done . Therefore his inclination is always to stake out a stronger position than you have to ." And you know. I will go to somebody and say. when I became representative I
used--I'm a lot different than that--I'm similar to him in some ways.
NS: And you don't think that Johnson was the problem?
RC: Oh. Now .I think . me in the Board .
Johnny
pontificates. but I think it was as much matched by the requirements of him in the job--was to go win a hundred percent victory every time.
didn ' t want to give in on. I'm not being dumb .
And I'm telling you that's my bottom line." And he was right. but I would give in on things that I
not very much. or we can come close to this. we can do it one way or another. "This will help me inside COMSAT. not much . I always had a little bit more under it. and Johnson saying.
. but a lot different .

the way the
.. I mean I've seen him
I've seem him fight like hell to make
concessions. On the other hand. or any of his colleagues at the Vice President level. meaning Charyk and Welch.
RC: I'm saying Johnson was..and it's accurate. we knew--those of us who worked for Johnson--knew that Johnny was a captive of--circumstances his personality which he was smart enough to know how to adapt. however partial.NS: I think that's the perception of a number of people. with these big teeth.. You cannot have partners like that. inclined to behave in a certain way. believe me most of us agreed with her.
RC: . his personality.
NS: So you're saying it was a combination of what was going on inside COMSAT. everything else in the corporation out-Johnsoned Johnson." [sic] Johnson. plus. midwestern boy turned banker... would have show any signs of enlightenment. So the combination of his negotiating posture. When Brenda Maddox wrote her book about "What Curious People to Lead an International Organization... Yet. by personality. concede things.. but his brain was good enough that he knew how to mitigate that. And so. If anybody in top management in COMSAT above him. The other guy can't be walking around thinking he's losing all the time.

We recommended yielding so much on the
manager. and several other people . of loading work into COMSAT Labs unnecessarily. but they always accused us of lying and cheating . happened?
RC: I did ten studies as the Director of International Arrangements . what.
were they kicked out. My staff at that time . ten volumes on different issues. or ten volumes of studies preparing positions for the definitive arrangements . I've got to talk a fast 22 minutes of talking. the foreigners
. Ok? I just will say flat out.. which included Bob
Kinzie who's at COMSAT . We would never retain what ' s. because the international part of the company's perception was were going to lose our shirts. They were all finished -. We made recommendations .corporation behaved . and they were right. lose out. made those perceptions I'm afraid.they
held me hostage to becoming Director of the European office to finishing them . because of this history .
We're square . Did COMSAT sell out. No one ever said we
were bad engineering .
NS: Alright.. very accurate. if we can do that.. we finished those studies in one year .
NS: Let's talk a little bit about the definitive arrangements.
RC: Yeah.

We stuck things in there. which no CEO in his right mind would do because you always want to walk away from your negotiators and disown them. These people were not dummies. a cost break
on COMSTAR because we paid too much for the INTELSAT IV. we loaded it
and we tried to get the international partnership to pay for it. We swore. we and four
had about seven COMSAT people in the first delegation . There was great suspicion about the INTELSAT IV
program and the reason that we designed it that way is that it would also become COMSTAR. And we succeeded most of the time in getting them to pay for it .
NS: How's that?
. I think we gained more
under the definitive arrangements than Johnson and I thought we were going to get.perceptions were right . Ok? Jim McCormick insisted on being the chief COMSAT man on the delegation. and they know that they should be playing that role . I was commuting from Geneva
etc. Johnson. for every meeting in Washington .
weeks later the two people that were around for the remaining two years were Johnson and Colino . we told them it wasn't true and it was true and we got a price benefit . We never had a chance to retain much of a managerial role and stupidly we fought for it. They talked to Hughes Aircraft directly too and so they knew what was going on. Matthews.

We had fought hard and lost on COMSAT policy
. with its own staff. would
there be a consortium--the die was cast. and that that's how COMSAT was going to make it's money.. six and four year technical service contracts. Nevertheless. (maybe I'd lost some of my hardnosedness by that time) than I thought we were going to get out of the definitive arrangements. That was much more important than whether we had the guarantees for R&D ... I mean. the basic issue: would we continue as a manager for a consortium.. which nobody ever . So I think we pulled off a lot more than a lot of us thought we were ever going to get. were going to insist that there be an independent juridical personality..RC: Because we had a period of management consulting contractor. Because we saw ourselves as being part of a communications company that was dependent upon an aggressive INTELSAT with high tech. Those people from the ICSC days.voting in the Board of Governors was critical to Johnson and me . The only issue really was: how much power is that staff and that chief executive going to get? I thought we came out much better than I personally... innovative services. management services contractor.. we kept COMSAT going in the engineering business without a staff in here [at INTELSAT] until 1982. and not as the repository of all of the wisdom of the world in the field of satellite communications.I negotiated under the permanent definitive
arrangements. good prices. Then we subsequently.. And in Charyk's mind .

If anybody else puts up a domestic satellite system . So.
both of us. We had advocated . makes you so special? " And anyway .
NS: Right. "We ' re going to put up a domestic satellite system. What
anybody who heads INTELSAT
will hire a lot of your staff.
RC: The only expert in the world .on domestic satellites. which we lost on already --we were losing the arguments . I mean.
. COMSAT does everything. Once that happens. too.
place in leading up to the definitive arrangements period. "Well other people can have expertise . By the time this all took
we'll get business later . We no longer had the strength of argument. we immediately lose the credibility we've gained as being the world ' s only expert. we should go out and
We should invest and put a satellite up and We lost. it will erode ."--this was while the OTP studies were underway--and "because if we don't we're going to get aced out. take a flyer . by the time the definitive arrangements were negotiated it was perfectly clear that COMSAT was not going to be the sole provider of domestic services."
NS: Right. right. very
strongly to McCormick in 1967-68 that COMSAT take a flyer and say. and people around the world were saying. we were losing--forget about the politics .

Charyk..
NS: That morning of the signing. To get a true transfer of function and the
agreement that said the Director General was the chief executive whether he was dealing with the contractor. 000 (when Charyk had told me I could settle for $200. instead of going right to a Director General.. we had a meeting at the last minute with McConnell.
NS: Did COMSAT almost not sign ?
Do you know about that?
RC: No.
. which gained three years. then the issue was how much goes inhouse. Phil Buchen . when we got a Director General.that was written into the agreement -. or his staff -. one six years and one four years for COMSAT was frankly more than I would have predicted in 1968-69. the contractor worked for him. I think getting written in a Secretary General. etc .but to get two contracts. and having the Secretary General have to rely on COMSAT for all technical and operational services under a management services contract--which I negotiated for COMSAT and got a rate of return of 14% on every asset we employed plus a fee per year of $800 .000 ) we had that contract go on and then the permanent arrangements .RC: So. John Johnson and me at seven in the morning in Charyk ' s office. management arrangements in '76.

which is one of life's more charming ironies probably. I felt we had a case to be made because that was very up in the air. We hadn't seen Charyk in the two years of negotiations . before we initialed and agreed. Charyk . We could say. and that political layer.the internationalist -. yea. I felt strongly
about that from COMSAT's self interest.S. strangely enough -. I mean he had nothing
.because I didn't like the creation of an Assembly of Parties . I find it kind
of ironical now because the Assembly Parties gives me [as Director General of INTELSAT ] tremendous support these days in
political clout against the U. too. Buchen and Johnson--Johnson agreed with me on the Assembly Parties . but did not agree it was a wise policy to make that the only issue for pulling out. I recommended holding out. ai
NS: Right now.
RC: The rest of the people at COMSAT in that room--McConnell. so we had an excuse. Obviously .RC: No a month before that . We had made several deals and the Europeans reneged." I thought that was more important in the long run than the other issues. Charyk was still preoccupied with the manager. we needed a couple. "We want to keep negotiating rather than conclude these because you guys reneged on some deals. I didn't win that argument . on the separate systems issue.

.
NS: Ok. poof. here we go again. that's my view. you've delayed these agreements from coming into force by years. "That's another reason that maybe we shouldn't proceed. that was settled long before the opening for signature.
RC: I mean... We agreed a year and a half before on the manager issue. After the signing of the definitive arrangements.. maybe I'm wrong. A month before to be precise. you've dragged on this thing in life. He brings it out of nowhere -. you've given us more years of control.. we reported. I think you guys.
NS: Well it had been so protracted at that point.] "You guys have done a pretty good job. But he said. I've just heard a number of different
stories about.
Because I mean.an issue that had been settled a year and half before. and all of a sudden.
NS: Ok." And McConnell said." That was it. and I think we've settled things as best we can and it's a pretty good deal for everybody. "I don't see how we can do this at this stage. (McConnell said.
RC: That's right. what happens to you?
.to do with it.

I'm the alternate U.. you could talk to a Brian Thompson. ' 73.
We had earth station things and studies.
I was selling services around the world
and so on..in-law ' s in Larchmont .. He practically lived
...
NS: Technical Services.
RC: Yeah.
International from the time
I come back from Geneva.
RC: Yeah . different things. technical .. NS: You mean the international consulting business?
RC: Yeah .. and the agreements were signed in '71 but they did not enter into force until COMSTAR. 1969. we expand international operations . Johnson and
'73.. for example.
in February . who is now President of MCI Mid-Atlantic ..
George Washington Birthday weekend.. we're doing more things.. consulting business at that time . NY.RC: I'm Assistant Vice President . which is before the definitive arrangements. I was at my sister .
I. we have a whole. I'm trying to remember
NS: That was '73.S. Rep.there ' d been years of McKenzie and Company studies about how to reorganize COMSAT. In.

inside COMSAT for years, and they had also some recommendations about how to reorganize the company , it was understood that we

were going to create a separate subsidiary for international matters. Johnson was going to be President of it , I had every

reason to believe I would be Executive Vice President and on that fateful weekend I got a call from Johnson , who never bothered anybody at home , and he said , " I've got to talk to you Rich . You don't have to come down, we can do it on the phone,

but I ' m afraid something has really gone wrong. McConnell does not want to trust George Sampson to run the subsidiary domestic company ," which was COMSAT General . " He's persuaded me to become the head of that. He is not going to create an international subsidiary and you're going to work for George Sampson ." George Sampson is still alive , you may have

interviewed him.

NS: Sure . I talked to him. Nice guy.

RC: No, he's not a nice guy.

NS: No?

RC: He's a son of a bitch.

NS: Alright.

RC: Nice guy outside, likable, I couldn't agree with you more, my dear friend, all the cliches, and if you disagree with him on anything, you've got problems.

NS: Cut you off at the knees.

RC: Ok? That was not my gripe then. I grew up in New York City. I understand people who cut you off at the knees. My gripe was he was the most limited of all the officers of the company, and he was being put in charge of an area which required policy formulation, leadership, creativity, innovativeness, and this guy could only do things by the numbers. His solution to every problem was to put ten mediocre people on the subject, instead of one bright person. Ok? And delegate authority. He didn't delegate. For example, in the first week on the job, I had a fight with him. I wanted to keep ... we had carried U.S.-Hawaii traffic on INTELSAT, U.S.Alaska, Conus-Alaska, Puerto Rico. I pleaded to keep it on the system. I had negotiated a deal with INTELSAT , we had a contract with the Board, I had to disqualify myself as the Governor....

NS: Right.

RC: I negotiated with them in '73-'74 a lease of a transponder for the price of 600 circuits on the transponder and we were socking over 1,200 circuits through that transponder and charging full price. I said, "We need this , business." it's good

George Sampson : " No, we're going to give it up."

RC: "Why are you giving it up?"

GS: "Because its going to be going on our domestic satellite
systems."

RC: "George , what domestic satellite system are you talking about, George?"

GS: "It's going to go AT&T."

RC: "That's exactly right ,

George, and we ain't going to get

revenue , George , because we wholesaled COMSTAR. Right? No
revenue."

GS: "Well, AT&T is our friend."

RC: "George, I don't give a shit if they ' re our friend,

were to me unbelievable errors. That was a milestone. he ran his own shop.
. and putting Sampson in charge . who was an operations man. He negotiated acquisitions. who ran earth stations. COMSAT General. a tough-nut pro. So he did
what he knew best. Johnny Johnson is not an executive. the signatory [to INTELSAT]. at that point. you would have thought that Sampson. And they turned down every acquisition he came back with. We needed corporate planning. he just basically isolated COMSAT General from COMSAT parent. By the way.the one thing Charyk did that was so crucial that he should get credit for forever was Early Bird. And I had to live with a bunch of mediocre people for a couple of years. he really was good at it.that it almost overcomes all the things he didn't do. investor. Ok? He wasn't really good at running a satellite system.INTELSAT and COMSAT -. I mean. I considered Charyk's indecisiveness in those early years.where's the money?" We went through things like that from day one. He's a negotiator. would have realized that the most important role COMSAT had was U. he wasn't interested. So his approach to things was because he wanted to get as far away from Charyk and the rest of the officers of the company. It was so important to the future of this organization -. it's so ironical. His indecisiveness on some of the things I mentioned and his weakness on others.S . . . even at that point. and as a result. Now Johnson was put in charge of a new business .

And Johnson came to see me and said. etc. I don't want to
go to meetings with him.That's how you make your money.
NS: What are we doing here?
RC: Why are we here. "Rich. was the earth stations. So Charyk decided this is a bright guy that's done well for this company. and he's been saying we need corporate planning. I'll serve his head up on a silver platter. I mean he used to say things to people in the Board. you've got to understand." Even Charyk used to have me report to him directly around Sampson. I'll get him out. "Look.S. we got to give him something. He came out thinking everything that the manager did was more important than anything else. We botched our reorganization again. We reorganized in a year.. We split into two managers. because I don't want the parent company getting in my way. but I'm going to fight you every step of the way. at my recommendations. what do we have to do to get this manager's recommendation through? Do you want Colino's head? Do you want him out of here as Governor? He works for me. It was a horrible situation. pretty stupid. But the only thing I needed for U. you're doing the right thing. I mean. exactly. and I didn't get that. Which is when I sent this survey around and got every answer back except the one I thought. he's too tough. I'm not interested in his opinion on
. I don't want to have to deal with the Sampsons . he put me in charge of corporate planning.

I'm running my own thing.
NS: Right. The condition I made in becoming the head of the domestic subsidiary with McConnell was that I be Chairman of the Board . etc. it doesn't do to agree with everybody. formed . Because of Sampson's weakness . I got Chairman and CEO.
I was the U. he was basically--he was such a do-do. In other words. and being the head of the MSC. wishy-washiness. I manipulated a few things.anything. that meant he was very susceptable to pressures the Secretary General and from both Astrain as
from the Board. "I talked him into making a condition. just as Johnson made sure the Booz -Allen.
RC: We then reorganized when Sampson retired . Hamilton study was done. which was to go along with everything." He says. and at least I'll get away from all
of Joe Charyk' s indecisiveness . SBS was
and they needed a good engineer . Governor from the first meeting. So. that--I mean. I don't want Charyk vascillating. Ok? They wanted Marty Votaw. Those Governors want you to--they're
.S. the second
meeting onward. and yet INTELSAT
needed and had a right to approve the head technical guy in the Management Services Contract. So I made sure that
the pressures that would help me internal to COMSAT came upon him. and he retired early under pressure. who ultimately went to SBS. I learned something.

"
NS: He was. he is today what he was." Ok? And Astrain was saying to the Governors and even to me. well." And that's how we organized our division. Votaw and I
reported to him. He talks generality. and the mistake was making a limited man like that in charge of a critical function. "I don't want to meet with him every morning. "Astrain and I meet every morning for coffee. "You get three Brigadiers to report to you. Can he manage?" I said.
RC: Ok? In other words. they thought if he was going to be
the head of this thing. He's always been. three people: Wood. "Do you want to know? No. He once said to me. He thinks he's a General.. He doesn't have his hands on. to do more than to say.. because of. His solution was. that's a good point you made. never changed. He used what he knew.
RC: And he is a General. "Oh. his wife was ill and that was
.I mean.paying you--and Astrain's paying you. and he's. I mean he was consistent probably his whole life." He said."
NS: Yeah. that he had to be hands-on. he's not managing. "You know how you become an Lieutenant General?" I said. "No. When he retired.

S. Army Security and Signal Corps.
RC: I was positive I was going to become the head of it. S. it was my brilliant idea to have a whole new division called the . and that ' s how I got
.from this Board about Sampson . watching the
President take shit -.up the Manager. and they put Wood in charge .
RC: I was in the U . the ICSC days. I didn't call it U. and some of your best managers and executives in this world come from the military in my view . Lou Meyer . Ok? Wood was an easy guy to work with -.
NS: Yeah.pardon the language -..
except for Bill Wood from the other days. and made me his deputy.. but Charyk . and the same cast of characters . When Sampson retired. but they don ' t apparently come from the Signal Corps.a great excuse.. but. He had the same--another military type--and there are good military types. even Charyk was getting embarrassed. with Astrain .
NS: I'll keep that in mind... Charyk was called to executive sessions of the Board.a team guy.. INTELSAT
division. same ones.. alone . and I made sure that they requested that Wood head . The gap came when Votaw had to go to SBS.. Here I'm sitting .

Ok? I seldom do things--things that appear
. But Joe. I'll worry about Jack. I had Goldstein working for me as my principal deputy. Joe. Life was pretty pleasant.. ok?" So I built it up and my last three years of COMSAT. I could be accused of being .
RC: "Well. I don't think the word "deceitful" is fair. from December '75 when I was made a Vice President/General Manager until I left in early '79.. I'll take the heat off you. what does Jack Harrington think?" "Oh. From that I opened it up to become what ultimately became World Systems. and a totally separate division. If anything. I even plan my ou4tbursts."
NS: Which he would never have. unless you have a violent objection. I'm a calculator. Charyk was easy for me to deal with because I understood him.. but too clever. I had a hell of a great team.my promotion to be a vice President. "I'm going to reorganize this way. I mean people who really understand what I'm doing--could be. it's fair to accuse me of being. I'm a very long-range planner.
NS: Are you a loose cannon?
RC: Absolutely the opposite. Kinzie.. That was easy.. he's against it Joe because I'm taking Earth Station Engineering and putting it under me.

have been thought through or even documented. Not you. were concluded in '71. that tells me how stupid some of these people are with their misperceptions. But I don't think a loose cannon--you can accuse me of being a time-bomb if you want. .. I'm not making an accusation. If
. Other people. Almost everything in those ten reports is in here. That was done and completed in 1967. written out in advance.. because I'm not playing a diplomatic role with them. ten reports on the definitive arrangements. I mean other people.
RC: No.
NS: No. right now we have a Director General who's got support that no Director General could ever expect to have more from 94 governments maybe. issued somewhere in '66.right now the United States is not seeing me that way at all. My staff does everything behind the scenes for all of these organs. For example. The agreements came into effect '73. an Assembly of Parties that passes resolutions that the Director General writes.Even the novel concept of relating investment to use. I'm a hardball guy when I have to be. So.. A landmine.to be bang-bang-. out of 110. and I'm a diplomat with some people. To think that some of the things that are happening today are just happening because of some emotional kind of anything... but a loose cannon is a joke.. which was our second report..

it's
up to our Signatory to protect us. and I hope he has the fortitude . I think he's got the brain power to do it and I think he has the commitment to do it. as things that were done out of some kind of
..the Board of Governors does not give us what we want. I think a lot of people have misperceived things that were done out of necessity . who got all the heat on separate systems? Who did the "lobbying" or got accused of it? Why the hell should we have had to do that? Why should an international organization have had to do that? Because they wanted to ? If we ' re really the cooperative that we are. . he can. 22 percent vote. I mean.NS : going to happen under Irv Goldstein? Is that what is
RC: He is going to do--if anybody can do it in that place. Even in the fight on the separate systems. etc. Why were there separate system applications in the United States? Because INTELSAT does wholesale pricing. hoping that the government
leaves them alone a little bit and they can come back and fight back and regain the position they had. that only time will tell . organization at a time when COMSAT . [with their heads covered ]. I mean that ' s what he is going to try to do. didn't do it's job? So. is in a foxhole like this. we get the Meeting of Signatories to pass a resolution and tell them things.
But they ' ve lost. with it ' s 22% vote.they don't even
act as a guy with a big stick. It ' s a good thing I know how to run an.

I think that's kind of amusing and
inaccurate .
NS: Ok.
I do very little out
of ideological commitment. You've got to be a very practical guy
And so . obviously. ultimately .
I'm the ultimate pragmaticist .ideology .
.. I think very few chief executives are ideologists.