Welcome to Texas justice: You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

Monday, July 28, 2008

Rozita Swinton's Bad Call

Newsweek supplies the most extensive background yet published in the mainstream media about Rozita Swinton, the hoaxer whose prank phone calls sparked the Great Eldorado Polygamist Roundup.Give it a read.

Though Grits focus on the topic has recently lagged, see more news from the Eldorado case:

Clearly, Rozita Swinton's is a sad story. Whether she suffers from D.I.D., or not, she obviously has some major mental health issues confronting her.Whether she was deliberately manipulated because at least one person, Flora Jessup saw an 'opportunity', is yet to be discovered. There are more questions than answers.On the other hand, I go back to my problem with the FIVE DAY LAPSE.Perhaps the Rangers and other law enforcement personel could not have traced the calls specifically to ROzita in that time, they most certainly could have determined that they DID not come from the YfZ Ranch, or anywhere in Texas, for that matter. They could have easily identified the towers the incoming calls to the shelter had bounced off of. That is something police and law enforcment do regularly. It is one of the techniques used in earlier Swinton cases.It strikes me as very, very suspicious that Texas was knowingly entering into a costly endeavor, and I'm just talking about the magnitude of the initial raid here, and yet they did almost nothing except talk to Flora Jessup, to attempt to verify the validity of the calls.The Texas Rangers hold themselves out as a nationally preeminent law enforcement entity. Is this how they generally conduct investigations? Is the mean I.Q. amongst their ranks something below the demarcation for Mental Retardation??????

And...on another note...the article itself is terribly biased. Although ostensibly about Swinton, it leaves the uninformed, or poorly informed, reader believing the worst is true about the FLDS. It would seem the writer has a predetermined bias that is, again, seeping into the national picture of this beleagured group. An all too common occurance with the media and one that could have been avoided had the Rangers, et al, done their job.........

Jack, proofreading. I'm not FLDS. But seriously, Grits reads it, and links to it from time to time. So do other non FLDS blogs like "The Common Room." In fact of the top five FDLS Fiasco centric blogs (that's mouthful), most are not FLDS members. Save the FLDS Children is not, Modern Pharisee is not, (In fact I don't think either have LDS members on their contributor list), The Common Room is not, I Perceive is run by Kurt, and LDS (Not FLDS) lawyer. FLDS View is run by an FLDS member or former member.

Unless you say their are large populations of FLDS in Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Michigan, Califoria, New York City and a host of other places (Washington DC included), then you're just taking a rather obvious swipe, that YOU think is funny.

Ron, et al...Let's step away from the instant issue for a minute...Let's just say, for argument's sake, that all of us...the general population of the United States, had a preconcieved set of 'ideas' about the FLDS before the April raid. Let's also say that those ideas we had came from mainstream media....like interviews on Larry KIng of Carolyn Jessup, or blips about Warren Jeffs during his trial, again, with the Floras and Carolyns being intrviewed...or maybe some of us read their books...or even reviews of their books...or some heard other 'testimony' in our churches, etc...But let's just say that the genesis for most of our earliest knowledge and beliefs about the FLDS came from ex-patriots of the group...one way or the other, the information flowed from the disenfranchised.....So now we have these ideas about what we think these folks believe...and some uncomfortable, gut stuff about what we'd heard last year....and then THE RAID came along...and another huge flurry of one sided information started bombarding us.....And we now had all sorts of visuals to go along with these testimonies...poor little kids in funny clothes being herded onto buses...Carolyn's voice in the background saying the poor little tykes can't even play with red toys.....Okay...so we've got all this stuff going...some on the critical thinking level, more on the subliminal level.....Then we get hit with THE PICTURE....well, if that isn't 'proof positive' of child sexual abuse, I don't know what is, right????Did it ever, ever occur to anyone to sit down, with an open mind, and ask the folks involved to explain the picture? Did it ever occur to folks to read what members of the community have written? Did it ever occur to folks to look for testimony from folks who haveleft the community who don't have axes to grind? And, by the way, there are many of them....many, many folks born into the FLDS community cannot, or CHOOSE not to follow the rigorous expectations, and leave....without severing ties or friendships or good familial relationships...Have you ever engaged any of them in a conversation??????

Now I don't expect that most folks, myself included, who have or do, take the time to delve a bit deeper, will rush to convert to FLDS.....I will go to my grave taking serious exception to many of their beliefs...but I take serious exception to many of the beliefs of every organized religious group I have encountered, to date...so that's no biggy...Anyway, what I believe you would find, what I have found, is a group of people who truly cherish their children. They raise them as gently and as cocooned from ugliness as I have ever seen. I have found a people who truly try to live their faith. Particularly their beliefs about being gentle and kind and doing good things for others. About behaving with respect for each other and giving everyone a sense of dignity.There beliefs about sexuality and children are as conservative and rigid as any you will find anywhere. Sex is NEVER acted out, or even discussed in the presence of children. There are instances of young people being wed BEFORE either of them even knew the particulars of the "birds and the bees".Not Warren Jeffs, not any man in the FLDS church would have sexual relations with a child as young as the one pictured in the infamous picture you referenced! That was a 'staged' picture. Not staged in the Hollywood sense, rather 'staged' to show betrothal. Betrothal does not mean sexual activity!!!!The information is available, if you want it. Or, you can CHOOSE to continue to buy the one sided information being promulgated by the media and naysayers....

As I said, I don't agree with all the practices. I do think some changes are warranted. The FLDS folks themselves are moving toward change.....I do believe there are some renegades amongst the group that have probably done some awful things...that is true in any group of people on the face of the earth....But when it comes to excommunications, or expulsions, or the "lost boys", or age of marriage, I think you would be well advised to look past the end of your nose before you cite all sorts of UNSUBSTANTIATED stuff....

Yes, they have a very different culture than mainstream America...yes, some changes may be needed.....but the horror stories are simply inaccurate. There is far more substantiation for a mosr balanced view of what their life and culture is like than for the atrocities you cite...thing is, these are a quiet, not seeking the limelight, set of folks....to find the truth, you have to look for it...only the propaganda will smack you in the face.....Talk with some of your contemporaries who have met and worked with the childrenand their parents throughout this mess...I have. You will find that the ones who came into it with an open mind, have found friendships and people to like and admire in this group you are so quick to malign.

And all of this is coming from a jaded old bat who doesn't really ike anyone, not too much, anyway. I'll take the company of dogs over people almost any day....*smile*

The picture in an of itself proves nothing. However, when added to testimony of people who know the organization it says a lot.

I honestly had no "preconceived" notions about the group other than polygamy which my opinion is "hey, if it works for you..." However, after reading the books by Stephen Singular and Jon Krakauer and hearing facts like Colorado City having EIGHT times the welfare assistance of similar sized cities, I don't see this group as anything meriting the least bit of sympathy.

I just don't understand how you continually rant on about the "atrocities" committed by the state of Texas while totally ignoring or discounting the atrocities committed by the FLDS.

I do give you credit for your optimism. You think they're going to change. I think the only reason they'll change is when a number of them start having to do prison sentences.

Ron, what "testimony" are you speaking of? Who gave it, when, and what was the forum, or venue?

What, when and where were the "atrocities committed by the FLDS" and who committed them? Let me just point out the bigoted character of your assertion. You have lumped together every man, woman and child who is or has been a member of FLDS and accused them of committing atrocities. You have ignored all the really good people who live at the YFZ Ranch, who have raised exceptional children, and who want nothing more than to have the world, and unconsciously bigoted people like yourself to leave them alone to live in peace.

If you know of individual members of FLDS who have committed atrocities, please refer to them as such. Stop feeding into the mob mentality by lumping them all together. You would most likely get angry if someone did that with American Indians, Mexican nationals, Blacks, Jews, and people who live in Houston.

ron...Singular's 'sources' were Flora et al....same ole, same ole..Krakauer wrote about ...can't remember their names...brothers...who were mainstream LDS...nothing to do with the FLDS...Guess you're just so locked in to your thinking nothing matters....Sad...particularly for the families you purport to represent...I'd hate to be represented by someone so myopic and willing to take other's word for things and not look for a balanced, more objective perspective...

Ron, we have no proof that Rozita was abused. With my own eyes I have seen health, happy children. I have seen a photo of Warren Jeffs kissing a very young girl. He can't do that anymore.The stories about these folks are a dime a dozen. There doesn't seem to be an age gap where male residents are concerned and our info on this seems to be 3rd party. Proof of wrongdoing should bring arrests just as with anyone else but you are judging lifestyle. Maybe the FLDS people lied to authorities but it was authorities who were lying to the public and there is documented proof.We have heard plenty of stories about the lost boys but we have seen no proof. We do have documentation of he throw-away children in society where children are thrown out or run away and are never reported missing. We have groups of siblings who each have a different father, may have never seen their biological father and some don't know who the father is. Is this better than the rumors of FLDS conduct?The most important thing I saw in the article was that a search warrant had uncovered a link between Rozita and a TX Ranger. 2 days later the Ranger was in CO talking to Swinton. This is the first time I have seen a direct link from Long to Swinton. Proof one way or another would be nice.I assume it would be illegal for Blackhawk helicopters to hover on my property, kicking up rocks and sand. No Trespassing signs would also apply to air traffic. I know this was wrong but maybe it is only legal on FLDS property. Or maybe this is another case of non-FLDS thumbing their noses at the law and assuming the FLDS people have no rights. That is vigilantism any way you look at it.

How about Dr. Dan Fisher. He's an educated guy and a successful businessman. Never wrote a book one about the FLDS. He testified before Congress.

"The problems caused by the FLDS are unacceptable, whether they are a polygamous or a monogamous society.

"Without question, FLDS members will sacrifice self, family and children if directed by their leader,"

Referring to himself he said:"It is a hell of a feeling to all of a sudden discover you're an orphan at age 50. I had nightmares for a year. I still have nightmares."

Those are excerpts from his sworn testimony before the U.S. Senate. Yep, those FLDS are really nice folks if you ask me.

All of my minority friends don't believe that some prophet speaking the word of God can tell them that they must marry their underage daughter to some crony of the prophet.

The FLDS have one unifying principle. Warren Jeffs is a prophet, he is infallible. He believes and preaches to his followers that underage marriages are just fine. That's why he's in prison. No one dares to defy his pronouncements.

BTW, thanks for calling me a bigot, a very nice ad hominem attack you made there.

I see that you want to disregard the evidence I've presented and rely upon you're interpretation of events.

I certainly don't appreciate this:

Sad...particularly for the families you purport to represent...I'd hate to be represented by someone so myopic and willing to take other's word for things and not look for a balanced, more objective perspective...

I've thought of a number of wise assed responses to this; however, I'll just let your little attack go past and let people who read this decide who is truly myopic.

Ron,Many folks have made proffers of "proof" as you call the individual testimony you cite. You've just chosen to believe one set over another. Never seemed to occur to you that, more often than not, the 'truth' usually lies between the poles...I've personally spoken with two individuals who left the sect in several years ago when they completed high school. Both of them talk about wonderful childhoods and many, many tears when they left. Both of them maintain good relationships with their families who are still in the group.One of the regular posters to this and other blogs is no longer living within the community and he talks about having brothers and sisters both in and out, but they remain connected as a family...There are several cites where the testimony of 'lost boys' can be found and they are very clear on the fact that a. that is a crappy term and they don't like it, and b. they left of their own accord, because they did not want to follow the religion.I've spoken to provider reps from Texas who have told me that the providers were told to expect certain beliefs and behaviors and they saw none of what CPS described. Especially the caution that FLDS children were apt to be hostile or rude to persons of color. It just didn't happen.If you go through the petition that was sent to congress, there is testimony/statements from family members of Flora and Carolyn, and I believe a couple of others, telliing very different tales of who these women were as youngsters and teens....And these accounts have never been told before. These people are faster to forgive and welcome their sons and daughters back than they are to defend themselves against the onslaught of accusations made...that in and of itself speaks volumes about how they live their lives.

The things you 'cite' are out of context. Again, I'd ask you to ask the people involved. Put the events in context. Discover what efforts had been made prior to things like what you call 'police harrassment'. Hear the parents tell about stolen vehicles and drug and alcohol abuse...and many of the issues parents all over the country deal with...let them tell you of the efforts that were made prior to sayiong 'you can not live in my home and behave this way.'

I'll tell you, these folks generally made more efforts than I did when I booted my son for constantly and consistently refusing to follow my rules in my home....

I don't know a great deal about Warren Jeffs. I know what people, on both 'sides' of the coin say...but again, I'm guessing the truth is in the middle....and he may be a schmuck...I really don't know....but he's in jail.....and he's one person.And, despite what folks say, I have found the women to be extremely strong folks...not blithering, simpletons, having every decision made for them....also, I can't speak to the allegations you made about welfare, however, the stats I was able to find show that there use of services is NOT excessive comparatively to other small, rural towns across the country...the one exception is medicaid. And I am guessing that is skewed by the incidence of Fumarase Deficiency and the high costs associated with it's diagnosis and treatment.What I did find that considering their average family size and birth rates, their use of the WIC program is consistently lower than other comparable areas...And, the YfZ Ranch specifically has no dependance on public supports. I believe there a couple of disabled individuals recieving SSI and two elderly persons recieving Social Security, but that's it!!!!And, in fact, the Ranch is a major taxpayer in the area!!!!Where you get the 'figure' hundreds...when referring to the 'lost boys' is a mystery. Better check the actual census and school and dept. of labor statistics before you go repeating hearsay.....

As for men who have been asked to leave the community, perhaps there have been times where it was truly unfair, more often it was for things we in mainstream society would have had these gentlemen arrested and prosecuted for...things like spousal abuse or failure to provide adequately.....or abusing a child....

Again, many of the stories you hear are skewed by bitterness...talk to the relieved wife or wives of an abuser who was quietly tossed....I'm not saying that Jeffs didn't, at times, abuse his power, I don't know...but I'm guessing that there were more times than not that the expulsion was rightous...and....no one was thrown out in the cold. Arrangments were always made for an alternative place to live.

It just seems to me that Texas would get alot further with a carrot than y'all are getting with your sticks and stones.....

And you are presenting yourself as myopic. And I would cringe to have you represent a child and his/her family's interests in court....you are presenting yourself as very, very closed minded....

Let's try it on this thread...since you dodged answering me, again, on the warrant thread....

BLUESMAN!!!!!

How do you account for the FIVE DAY LAPSE?????and how do you account for the judge seeing a five day lapse and a paltry profer of probable cause, with no (required) verification of the veracity of the complaint, signing that first warrant????

There are a number of people who stick to the theory that children never make a false outcry of abuse.

I've never really bought into that theory. However, when you have multiple victims each telling the same story and corroborating one another, then I'm going to give that version of the facts a very highly probability of being true.

You are basically calling all of the escaped FLDS women liars. You want to accuse me of being myopic? What sort of family "advocate" just dismisses multiple corroborating accounts as lies?

If I were an abused female child you'd be the last person I'd want as my advocate.

I don't know what your family of origin issues are that have caused you to get so emotionally wrapped up in this case, but I really don't need lectures about objectivity from you.

Yes, Bluesy, it's your turn to be called myopic, bigoted, or some other insulting phrase from all these highly objective individuals.

More on that poor beleaguered group the FLDS. Remember, Warren Jeffs, speaks for God for these people. So, here's what Warren instructs them that God says:

"The black race is the people through which the devil has always been able to bring evil unto the earth."

"I want to remind you what the prophets have taught us, that whenever a man of God is commanded to kill another man, he is never bloodthirsty."

"Today the Lord rules over this people through President Jeffs, yet we're under the bondage of the gentiles here in America. Soon the Lord will overthrow our nation and the priesthood people will rule over this land because the priesthood people will be the only ones left."

Remember this group has been classified as a "hate group" by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

In June 2005, Warren Jeffs was charged with sexual assault on a minor. He subsequently was placed on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.

It took until August 28, 2006 for the authorities to catch up to Jeffs. At that time he had four computers, 16 cell phones, disguises and $55,000 in cash.

Ron, You're creating an innane argument. Yes, I am saying that several of the women, and men, that have left the FLDS, for a variety of reasons, are lying. Each telling their own lies. Some stretching and obfuscating the truth, some outright lying. And most of them are being rewarded for it. One way or another. Not always monetarily, for some it is ego food.What you are doing is saying that the scores, not three, four, five women, but scores of others who have CHOSEN to leave are all lying. You are saying that all of the women that are a part of the community are all liars. You are deliberately ignorring the facts. There are many college educated women in the community. There are also cllege educated men. There are many women who hold jobs outside of the home. There are members of the community who live in large cities and their children go to public school. Albeit, that is a small percentage of the community, but it is a choice open to those who want to elect it.What you are choosing to do is invalidate an entire culture because they at times have engaged in practices, while not necessarily ideal, or optimum, are contrary to what you believe the continuum of choices should be in a cultural group.Have there been marriages to young women way, way too young for our definition of 'marriage'? Absolutely. Have all of those relatively few marriages to very young teens included conumation of the marriage while the young woman was so very young? No. You are choosing to forget that their definition of marriage, courtship, etc. are different than how we commonly define those terms.And, what you also are choosing toleave out of your rationalizations is the fact that the FLDS community has agreed to cease, in its entirety, the practice of sanctioning marriages between anyone not of 'legal age' in the jurisdiction they reside in. Isn't that what everyone, ostensibly, has been asking for?????

Now you tell me if it is abuse to marry a fifteen year old, not consumate the marriage, take care of her physical needs, i.e. housing, education if she desires, clothing, food, recreation, etc., and ask nothing of her than to try to learn to love you and come to you when she is ready for consumation???Now I'm not talking about whether it is legallly abusive. And I'm asking you to remember that their culture is different than ours, so all I want to know is if in that context, you see abuse?And, you have to remember, if the young woman, or 'girl' if you want to call her that, could have said 'no' to the marriage and that 'no' would have been honored. And I am not saying that at times there hasn't been coersion, I'm sure there has...but that is the extraordinary, not the usual.....

Different world...different expectations, different measurments of success....perhaps coercive, but then, what home or social group isn't??I know I put tremendous pressure on my boys to go to college. As did the parents of their friends and peers...As did their teachers, guidance counselors, community members and neighbors...Did they all go to college? Nope...most...but we have a couple of hold outs...but I have faith...sooner or later they will....but no coersion or pressure here....*smile*Have I tried to influence who their friends were? You betcha! Have I tried to influence who they dated???...Oh my lord, they'll tell you horror stories about some of the things I did and said to them, about them, and to their "Barbie" type dates, over the years....

Open your mind to the possibility that a sub-culture, with very different standards and mores can exist within our larger culture...and that we have no right to persecute those folks.....Or to expect them to adopt our culture.....

Ron,You didn't list anything that is illegal. Reprehensible, perhaps...your quotes are out of context.

Most of the homes/families in the FLDS community have computers and cell phones and ipods and so on...they don't watch television or hollywood movies, but they don't exist in the dark ages...despite the myth that they have no exposure to anything but 19th century living...

You don't have to agree with everything they teach, believe, or practice...but I believe that as a man or woman of conscience, each has the obligation to protect their right to choose to be different.....

And just for clarity's sake, I'm going to find a picture of some of my sons and scan it and post it to my blog in a few minutes....The last thing I want is for a bunch of y'all folks who like to twist and rewrite everything I say to start accusing me of being a white supremist or some succh nonsense.....

You're so right. We don't want advocate hearsay. So, how about this from Brook Adams blog at the Salt Lake Tribune.

Last summer I asked Pam Perlich, an economist at the University of Utah's Bureau of Economic and Business Research, to help me take a look at population counts in Hildale and Colorado City....

Here is what Pam Perlich had to say about her analysis: Assuming the ages at which the teens leave is 14-18 and using the time frame April 1, 2000 through Oct. 1, 2007, the maximum possible number of ''evacuees'' would be 902 and the estimated outflow of 400 to 1,000 is too high. She also made these observations.

1. Males outnumber females significantly in the preschool age group, slightly in the 10 to 14 age group and somewhat in the 15 to 19 age group.

2. The age distribution is one of the ''strangest'' population pyramids she has ever seen, more like the 1870 pyramid for Utah.

3. While sex ratio at birth always favors males, the male:female ratio in Hildale/Colorado City is exceptionally high in the 0-5 age range, a result that could simply be a statistical ''outlier'' due to a small population or the result of a higher probability of male births in younger women."

No heresay there, just statistical analysis in the FLDS community.

Here's what people with knowledge of the community say:

In an Arizona Republic story in 2003, David Bateman, then 19, said he figured 150 young men in his age group were forced out over the previous four years.

In a New York Times story published last year, Shannon Price of the Diversity Foundation, set up by ex-FLDS member Dan Fischer to assist the teens, said 500 to 1,000 teens or young men have left in the past six years.

Ms. Adams adds:

Elsewhere in society when children are rebellious parents are supposed to deal with it the best they can and not just turn them out on the street. But FLDS parents have been told to cut off their wayward children by their leaders.

There are abandonment and neglect laws that might apply but authorities in Utah and Arizona have not seen fit to use them in the case of Lost Boys because, as Shurtleff has told me, the teens do not want to see their parents hauled into court.

Instead, there are endless appeals to the public to help the teens.

Give me a break, my teenager can be a pain, but any good parent isn't going to just cast him out on the street.

You don't have to be an apologist for the FLDS to think something is smelly about the whole mess.

Looking at the case as a whole it is reasonable to conclude that the warrants, the raid, the snatching up of all those children was a ploy and a sham to gather evidence for a criminal investigation.

I don't buy this tacit notion that it was a convergence of innocent inadvertancies that led a woman with a long history of making false allegations of sexual abuse to prompt law enforcement to act. The fact that these phone calls went on for five days and she related details she had no way to know, given her location, raises more suspicion.

Ron,150 over four or so years is quite different than 400+ that you asserted. And, you have to then check the age of the 'boys', I've been told the majority were 18 or over. I've also been told that many chose to leave, against their parent's and family's protestations. Again...truth is somewhere between the poles...The other factor not looked at is how many have returned???And anything Dan Fisher says is suspect.Then let's go a step further...you're white, I think, middle class, educated, and earn a reasonable income....the probability of folks from your socio-economic-social group booting out their wayward teens is relatively small...although there are a few of us who have chosen that as a resort of last choice....Reality is that it happens everyday in other groups....with a far higher frequency than most people can imagine. Most of the boys who moved into our family were "lost boys"...and they really were......I'm still trying to figure out how to find the picture I scanned, so I can post it...I'm no where as computer savvy as many of my FLDS contemporaries are...*smile*

If you're going to try to make the argument that those underage marriages were never consummated, then you must be living in some fairy tale world. "Oh no Mr. Toad, these wonderful people would never forcibly rape a child!"

News flash: I only know of 1 teenager who supposedly had a child by immaculate conception.

Ron...You best join the bluesman in his little corner where he practices twisting and turning everything I say.....Read what I said!!!!!

And I managed to post a picture of most of my boys...it's an older one...from Christmas 2000, but it is the only one I have with most of them together...they decided to sit for it on a whim because Lil Mike was on his last leave before deployment....

Ron, I SAID:not all were consumated!I didn't say none were consumated.

And I didn't ever say that no abuses ever took place. What I have constantly and consistently said is that the abuses, yet to be concretely identified, by the way, are few, far between, and the entire group has committed to cease any actions that would lend itself to further, future "abuse"...And, the actual incidence of underage marriage and child bearing is actually lower than the rest of our great society....So let's put things in perspective, shall we???Let's try to back up, regroup, and approach these folks civilly and with the purpose of helping, not persecuting...Imean, hey! What can it hurt to try, eh? Worst that can happen is we get told to go shit inour hats...and that really isn't likely....If they can welcome back a Flora, after all she has done, my guess is they would at least sit down and talk with just about anyone who approaches them respectfully....*smile*

I don't want to persecute anyone. I also don't think that every FLDS person should be automatically lumped into some stereotyped group.

I believe in working with families and trying to keep them intact.

I'm just getting quite tired of this portrayal of this case as the "Evil Empire" of the State of Texas wrongfully persecuting the Jedi FLDS.

If there weren't people in that compound, commune, or whatever violating the law, there would have been no raid. The FLDS are not worthy of any sympathy from the general public. As a group, they are a hateful theocracy. Many will do whatever Warren Jeffs commands even if that is a hateful act of violence.

Will dialog change them? I don't know, but I suppose it's worth a shot.

I guess, based on choices I've made in my life, I guess I could refer to any number of organized religious groups "hateful theocracies"..let's see...there are most 'fundamentals', the LDS and FLDS and groups like Jehovah's Witnesses would certainly tell me I'm 'condemned'....And the Roman Catholics...oh mercy!!!!....they'd take meo ut and do awful things to me..or at least some of their spookier, clandestine inner groups would.....Ya know what, I personally don't give a tinker's damn about all that...long ago I learned that the best way to get along was to judge each person based on my own interactions with them, not on what anyone says about them, or what affiliations they may ascribe to....hell, if I went on what I think about affiliations, I'd have zero lawyer friends.....howere', as it happens, I call many members of various bars "friend".....although I must say, I generally prefer the jurists who shun bar membership...hehehehehe

Ron, that post by Brooke that you cite actually shows the opposite of what you are trying to prove.

For one thing- the part you put in bold- that's not about the boy girl ratio, that's about the adult/child ratio. Brooke showed that whatever is happening the number of so called 'Lost Boys' has to be substantially *less* than what has been claimed.

If there weren't people in that compound, commune, or whatever violating the law, there would have been no raid.This is circular reasoning. You are in effect saying that we know the FLDS were criminals because the government attacked them. And how do we know this? Why, because the government attacked them.

The raid was not on the basis of anybody in the compound violating the law- it was made in response to Rozita Swinton's hoax.

Dan Fisher does make money from what he does. The 'Lost Boys' pay him rent. He's offered them money, cars, and other stuff to support his testimony, and teens have said that he supplied booze to them. His houses are known as party houses.

He also had three wives- he abandoned two of them. I believe at least one of them signed the petition recently sent to the senate Judiciary committe- I know his mother and brothers did- and they say he isn't telling the truth.

Flora left when she was 16 years old, and that was around 16 years ago. I am not sure why her testimony should be considered accurate about FLDS members who were children when she was in the community. Furthermore, even other anti FLDS figures have said that she isn't credible, she inflates her data and flatly makes things up.

I had thought of Caroline as more reliable, but lately she's been making some bizarre allegations that she never mentioned before the FLDS raid (the waterboarding of babies, for instance)- these are things that would have come up in a custody case at the time, but did not.And her daughter returned to the community as soon as she turned 18.

I don't think every member of the FLDS is as pure as the driven snow. I am totally okay with Warren Jeffs being in prison- although even there I think it's strange that he's in there as an accomplice to a rape he wasn't present at, and the victim does not want to testify against the alleged rapist because she feels sorry for him. I do think a number of issues have been grossly exaggerated, and you've only considered one side- probably because of your bias against religion.

You seem to have read Brooke's blogpost with blinders on, for instance, because the point she made there is almost the opposite of the one you think she made.

tx and ron are two of a kind. they make stuff up. they misrepresent what you say. the continue to speak in tones of bigotry.

"As a group, Catholic Priests and Bishops are a bunch of child abusers."

"As a group, American Indians are a group of alcoholics."

"As a group, Mexicans are stupid."

And on and on. Ron is so into this kind of thinking that even when he gets beaten over the head in this thread, even when his flawed way of thinking is pointed out to him, even after he claims he doesn't think every FLDS person should be lumped into some stereotyped group, he......wait for it!!

Do you like the word bigot? So far, I haven't heard anything but ad hominem attacks from you. Do you have anything substantive to add to the conversation?

As to "as a group" - no Catholic priests are not "as a group" pedophiles. Less than 0.2% of Catholic priests have been shown to be pedophiles.

As a group, Native Americans do have problems with both diabetes and alcohol. Since I'm from the group, I can say that alcoholism on the reservation is a big problem that needs to be addressed. Is that bigotry? No it's the truth. An unfortunately one, but still true as a group.

I'm not even going to go into Mexicans are stupid, that just shows how inane your arguments are.

Now the FLDS. As a group they believe that Warren Jeffs is a prophet from God. They believe in absolute rule by Jeffs. So, as a group they are theocratic. The also believe that what Jeffs says about blacks and homosexuals are an absolute religious truth.

So, as a group they are a hateful theocracy. Privately some individuals may not hold to such hateful theocratic beliefs; however, I'd suggest that those are a minority.

Doran, you simply are nothing more than an intellectual light weight. "As a group Catholics believe in transubstantiation." What's bigoted about that? Drawing inference about the general qualities of a group does not make one a bigot. Even if what is said is an unpleasant reality.

I've provided evidence to back up what I've said. I stand by the hateful theocracy remark. Again, if you have anything other than ad hominem attacks I'd welcome you to add to the discussion.

As a group they believe that Warren Jeffs is a prophet from God. They believe in absolute rule by Jeffs. So, as a group they are theocratic. The also believe that what Jeffs says about blacks and homosexuals are an absolute religious truth.

None of these things are crimes. This is about beliefs rather than actions, and should have nothing to do with what law enforcement does or doesn't do.None of these things supports your other allegations, either. They are completely separate.

On one of those other allegations, I have a question about Welfare rates. It's not illegal to apply for Welfare, and it's not illegal to say you're single if you're not allowed to have a legally recognized marriage.Investigations (I believe one lasted a year) failed to reveal any substantial amount of Welfare fraud.If the FLDS communities in AZ and Utah have high rates of members on Welfare, the proper comparison would not be with other cities of similar size- but with other cities of similar size and LOCALE. These are desert communities. I don't know how their rates compare with other desert communities where jobs are somewhat scarce.

Ron, if you don't think that all FLDS members are racists, then don't refer to FLDS as being racists. Talk about the racist aspects of the FLDS dogma, talk about individual racists within FLDS, but don't smear every man, woman and child in the group with such broad generalizations. Jeez!! That is just basic social skills I'm talking about. You are simply adding to the mob mentality when you use language as loosely as you have when talking about people in the FLDS.

I wasn't advocating for a particular incidence of lost boys in the FLDS society. I was only arguing that they do in fact exist and statistics bear that out.

The fact that the population pyramid is highly irregular supports the inference that there is manipulation by the group.

As to circular reasoning, I don't think anyone denies that the FLDS practice polygamy. Whether, you or I like it or not, polygamy is against the laws of most states in this country. They were breaking the law. We can agree or disagree whether they should have been raided and/or prosecuted for that.

As to a bias against religion. I will say that I have a hard time understanding some religious beliefs. I have a bias against people who allow their child with a treatable infection to die because the believe in faith healing. I have a bias against people who stop educating their children so that they can work to support their religious group. I have an large bias against parents who will allow their teenage daughter to become the sexual chattel of someone twice their age because it is commanded by some megalomanical prophet.

Jeez!! I defy you to ever find me using the word racist. Go back in this thread and find me using the word racist and I'll buy you lunch.

The believe that Jeffs speaks for God. He speaks an absolute irrefutable religious truth. So, to the extent that he makes hateful statements about blacks or homosexuals, "as a group" they adopt those statements also.

There is no "mob" mentality. If anyone qualifies as a "mob" with a "mentality" I'd say it's the FLDS.

I never made the claim that the FLDS were engaging in welfare fraud. However the fact that the incidence of welfare benefits is 8 times higher than similar communities is both statistically significant and an indicator that something might be going on in the community.

The fact that people make claims of the FLDS believing it is acceptable to "bleed the beast" only adds another piece of evidence to a theory of potential welfare fraud.

Or just as easily it could support the proposition that older males exclude younger males from the group.

Um, no.

As to circular reasoning, I don't think anyone denies that the FLDS practice polygamy. Whether, you or I like it or not, polygamy is against the laws of most states in this country. They were breaking the law. We can agree or disagree whether they should have been raided and/or prosecuted for that.

The warrants weren't for investigating polygamy [bigamy], but for a specific allegation of statutory rape. Don't be obtuse.

Ron, How does having more young children than adults support that boys are kicked out?

Are you aware that the 'bleed the beast' phrase in an invention of Flora's? The one source that people on both sides agrees is utterly unreliable? Are you aware that FLDS people say they never heard the phrase until they started reading what other people were saying about them?

Ron, we are definitely not communicating. So I'll try to state it simply, as one intellectual light weight to another: If you don't want to be perceived as being a bigot, then avoid using the language of bigotry.

Isn't it ironic. We've got a bunch of 21st century criminals in Washington D.C. holding court for some supposed criminals from the 19th century. I guess that means the 21st century criminals are superior to the 19th century criminals.Who would you trust?

"The warrants weren't for investigating polygamy [bigamy], but for a specific allegation of statutory rape. Don't be obtuse."

I'm not being obtuse; however, you're wholly incorrect.

DHM

OK. Throw out the bleed the beast phrase. You still have a statistically significant variation in the levels of welfare funding for the community, and you have reports by governmental officials of women in prairie dresses applying for governmental assistance.

How about another interesting fact:

33% of the population of Hilldale and Colorado City use food stamps to feed their family compared to an average of 6.7% for Arizona residents and 4.7% for Utah residents.

I could list other facts. While none of these fact constitute proof of welfare fraud, the totality of the circumstances starts to smell very fishy.

Ron,I don't remember who posted it, but someone talked about having to compare apples to apples...You need to look at small towns, nationwide, with similar demographics....and look at things like loss of industry, mean income in the area....We have small towns in some eastern states....Pa., W. Virginia, upstate N.Y., where fifty percent of the population are recieving some sort of assistance....between medicaid, food stamps, cash assistance, supplemental security.....This is particularly true in towns where large industry has been lost, and where there is an increasing senior population. (pa. has one of the largest, second only to Florida, senior pops. in the nation).Also, you talked about food stamps....which is a federal benefit many 'working poor' families recieve. The high rate of food stamp recipients could be a reflection of the large average family size. The ratio of income to mouths to feed may be skewed over the national average....

What isn't being talked about is the YfZ ranch...and the fact that almost no one there is recieving any kind of benefits, at all...Take away the religious aspect of it and I think that anyone looking at it would have to agree that it is a pretty amazing place! In four years they took a plot of land that was wilderness and created an almost self sustaining community. I'm guessing they would be even further along than they are if they hadn't had to stop everything to deal with this mess!

Maybe instead of everyone being so busy trying to destroy them, folks could step back and take a look at what they have accomplished, offer to help...in the process of helping and learning, befriend...and maybe some mutual learning and sharing and consequent changing could happen for everyone!

If areas in the west can be transformed so quickly when you have desire and committment, it opens up all sorts of possibilities....if we get past our biases and look at the positives.......The YfZ Ranch has the potential to be looked at as a model...something to replicate....not shun....

Ron, the point about your previous reliance on the 'bleed the beast' phrase is that it demonstrates just how very one sided your information is- you've clearly not even considered looking at what the FLDS have to say for themselves. Why would that be?

I'm not asking you to take everything said by a member of the FLDS at face value- but you seem to have been taking everything Flora Jessop says at face value, even though other Anti-FLDS people have said she's a liar, she's a bit of a nutcase, and she does their cause more harm than good.

So since you've been taking everything said by one side at face value, you might at least consider reading something from the other side and then drawing some more informed conclusions.

Have you ever been divorced? Would you want somebody to make a hard and fast judgment about your character based entirely on testimony from your ex-wife or ex girlfriend?

Fwiw, I think there are probably a few more boys kicked out for poor reasons than Allan Holme (referenced above) suggests. But I think there are hundreds, possibly thousands, fewer than the anti-FLDS suggest.

I also suggestt hat accusations that these boys are let loose on society unprepared to deal with mainstream culture lack perspective. Isn't it possible that the boys that leave are unprepared to deal with our culture because their parents intended them to remain in THEIR culture? They brought them up to be part of their community- and when the boys decided they didn't want that, it's not really their parents job to facilitate rebellion.

The Amish don't prepare their children to live in the non-Amish world, either. And Hasidic Jews don't go out of their way to teach their children how NOT to be Hasidic Jews. Do you go out of your way to teach your child how to be a Conservative Christian? Of course not. Why should you teach your child how to be a part of a culture that is antithetical to your beliefs?

I am not saying, again, that the FLDS are problem free and pure as the driven snow. I am saying that much of your hostility and accusations are clearly based on sources known to be deeply flawed and unreliable, and you have obviously not even tried to consider both sides dispassionately. That should bother you.

And you know, instead of comparing Welfare rates for the small cities of Hilldale and Colorado City with the entire state of AZ (which has Phoenix and Tuscon, and several wealthy retirement communities), you might compare them to communities like Gila Bend, Somerton, Nogales, or possibly San Carlos.

Incidentally, Of the major locales with the lowest per capita income in the United States, seven are in Texas. One in 11 Americans receives food stamps. One in seven of those are in Washington, D.C.(found here)

Again- I'm not claiming there is *no* welfare fraud- but you are not comparing apples to apples, and you are ignoring other factors- family size, and the fact that legally, the government won't ALLOW two or three women applying for aid to claim the same husband, even that's who they all believe they are married to.

Headmistress...Looks like the naysayers slept in this morning!Whew.........yesterday exhausted me. Gets really tiresome retyping the same things a gazillion times...and continuously having to try to 'dummy' down what you want to convey.....that is work!

Ultimately it doesnt matter what happens with this particular case. There are so many violations going on with just the way those perverted FLDS freaks operate their ranch they will eventually just leave to avoid being prosecuted for tax evasion, child labor, OSHA violations, truancy, and dog only knows what else.

See the language that Anonymous immediately above has used to describe his prejudice against FLDS? That language is a perfect example of the kind of language you do not want to use if you want to avoid being perceived as bigots.

Regina, I answered you yesterday, on the thread you posted the question on...see repost, below:

Regina,

That's simple, the same way I've explained it before. The Rangers, who were called in after the ATF botched the Waco raid, were concerned that they were prepared to deal with armed resistance. You must remember that throughout Mormon history (as well as other religions), there have been violent resistance at times (i.e., Porter Rockwell, the LaBaron group, etc).

A small, West Texas county does not have the resources standing by, in the way a Dallas or a Houston would.

As to the warrant? It's a good thing that you're not the judge - you are required to follow the guidelines of the law, not the guidelines of this is what I think about polygamy/bigamy...

Oh, Bluesman....Please stop pretending I am stupid. I know you know I'm not. Your answer is a typical non-answer, which is exactly why I said you had not answered my question. To wit; how do you account for the failure to verify the veracity of Swinton's calls and the whereabouts of the alledged perpetrator, given that there was a full five day interval, prior to going in?????Not like anyone 'believed' there was a child in danger and went right in to save her......I guess we're all lucky 'that' wasn't the case!!!!!!!

Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that if there was such "imminent danger" they should have moved on the first day? Oh, wait a minute... Flora hadn't finished her "interrogation and recording" of all the pleas for help.

Give me a break! This whole thing stinks worse than 3 day old fish.

The ONLY task force that needs to convene is one that searches for the truth. The first truth to find... what connection does ANYONE (from any anti-FLDS, local police, Texas Ranger, elected official, etc) have to Rozita Swinton? Who fed her details that weren't readily available?

When they've answered that question, they can round up the real perpetrators and have a real trial.

You know what I truly don't understand? Why anyone would believe what comes from the FLDS themselves. The whole concept of a theological truth that is greater than a secular truth goes back to Joseph Smith.

The FLDS believe that secular society is evil and that it will be destroyed and only they will remain. It is perfectly acceptable to lie to the "gentiles" if you feel that it either protects or advances FLDS interests.

If anything, given the FLDS beliefs about outsiders and their relations to them, I'd say that their credibility is highly suspect. I also fail to see how just because someone left an organization they are suddenly suspect.

Most of the truth we discover about secretive groups come from former members.

I just don't understand how people can support a group that follows a convicted felon as a prophet.

Bluesman has answered you. It is not a "non answer." It's just an answer that you don't like because you want to find a vast evil conspiracy by the State of Texas against the poor beleaguered FLDS.

Besides the historical incidences that Blues cited, you have numerous incidents of violence by other fundamentalist Mormon groups.

The fact that the rangers acted patiently while following the law, is something that should be applauded. The fact that execution of the warrants was done peacefully is another positive for the authorities.

The fact that the answer doesn't fall into your hyper-emotional conspiracy seeking view of the world doesn't make it a "non-answer."

Ron, Guess what? Two non answers don't make an answer.I didn't ask what they were doing for five days. So your 'stuff' doesn't answer my question.I want to know, since they had/took five days...for what ever reason(s)...that's another discussion...Since they had those five days, why didn't they actually verify, or do and document a better attempt, Rozita Swinton's calls? And why didn't they ascertain the actual whereabouts of their alleged perpetrator????Pretty straight forward question....

Let's see if you like this answer. They didn't attempt to verify the call because that was irrelevant at the time. When the call came in, their obligation was to do an investigation of a report of abuse.

When a call comes into CPS there is no investigation about the veracity of the call. The call triggers an investigation into the safety of a child. The truth or non-truth of the call is determined after the investigation of abuse.

For most folks who don't live in compounds with guard posts, it doesn't take five days to get the investigation going. It doesn't take going to a judge to get a warrant.

I'm sure everyone involved moved as quickly as they could given the circumstances.

Ron, You refer to yourself as sometimes 'irelevant'...might want to up the projected incidence rate a bit on that one...You say you think outside the box...when????? You are such a 'tow the line' kinda guy it is scary...maybe that's what you meant when you also referred to yourself as 'slightly insane'????For my money 'slightly' is the personification of understatment...

Your lies and excuses and obfuscations just flow...like lava....

believe you me, if they ever really believed there was a young woman in there in imminent risk of abuse, they wouldn't have hesitated to go in 'guns a 'blazin''.....

I'm really tired of interacting with you. I need a break from your hateful stream of nonsense...I'll catch up after I take a few to regroup....

Ron, Oh my goodness, for a seasoned advocate you seem to be pretty thin skinned!Calling you a few well deserved names, or making observations about what you have on your public self-description doesn't constitute a meltdown!And, thus far, you did not answer my question to the bluesman, nor has he. It will be interesting to see if Ranger Long answers the same direct question.Something tells me he will try to do the same dance the two of you are doing. Hopefully the judge will order him to answer the question asked. You seem to have made up a question you preferred to answer and put it on auto-play in your head to completely drown out the actual question....Old, rather boring trick many less than deft lawyers play......

Oh, by the by, you might want to brush up on the difference between "your" and "you're".

And, sweetie, walking away from a person who is annoying you, rather than blasting them into the next century is certainly not childlike behavior. Me letting loose with the kind of language I was inclined to would have been childlike.You and your ilk, tend to really annoy me with your refusal to use even a modicum of common sense in your blind approach to this set of issues concerning the FLDS. It is incomprehensible to me....

You know what I truly don't understand? Why anyone would believe what comes from the FLDS themselves. The whole concept of a theological truth that is greater than a secular truth goes back to Joseph Smith.

Ron, this is circular reasoning again. If the FLDS say it, they must be lying. Why? Because the disgruntled and angry people who left have said so. How do you know those people are telling the truth? because they say so.

How do you know they say it is okay to lie to gentiles? Because people who hate them say so? Have we seen any falsehoods from them this time around, or have those lies all come from CPS?

Are you aware that several of the so called 'lost boys' have recanted their testimony and sheepishly admitted that they said what they said because Dan Fisher promised them booze and cool stuff? Those boys still aren't in the FLDS, they just now say they left because they wanted to leave. Why would you discount their accounts?

Laurene Jessop was one of Flora Jessops 'Rescues.' Laurene has not rejoined the FLDS, but she says Flora used her, lied to her, and lied about her to others, and told her if she didn't join Flora in her lies, she'd never get custody of her kids. Other FLDS rescue organizations have *repudiated* Flora's work because she's so unethical and dishonest- and yet, that's where you are getting most of your info.

Why do you automatically discount everything they say- even though through this case, we've seen repeatedly that what they say *usually* can be and has been verified, whereas what Sheriff Doran, CPS, and Ranger Long say- can't, or is shown to be a blatant falsehood?

I'm not asking you to accept every FLDS claim at face value- I'm asking you to stop taking everything Flora has said at face value. Examine both sides- compare, give them the same care you'd want somebody to take with examining allegations against you.

Warern Jeffs is a convicted felon- but the charges against him are being chipped away. I don't like the man- the pictures of him kissing that girl creep me out.But I ask you- how can he be in jail as an accessory to a rape that the state won't charge the actual rapist with because the 'victim' won't testify against her former husband (she feels sorry for him) and they are afraid the charges just won't stick?Elissa Wall was 14 and her half cousin (same grandpa, different grandma) was 19 when Jeffs performed the ceremony- and he was not the prophet then. He did not arrange the marriage.

At 15 or 16, Elissa was having an affair with a man OLDER than her husband, and who was more closely related to her. She has a child with him. Yet nobody is charging that man with a crime.

Everybody who leaves is not automatically a liar- I never said that. I do believe that if they leave, they do have a bias against the group- hello? That would be why they left. And I think it's also important that Elissa's own book supports the truth that underaged marriages are rare- she said so. She said she'd not heard of one in a very long time and didn't know anybody else in her shoes. She also talked about partying in the desert, going shopping in the next big town over, and flying out to visit her apostate relatives when she was just young teen, all alone. So it's not the 'closed' society you imagine. Somebody put her on the plane, paid for her tickets.

Caroline Jessop- has told more than one version of her 'escape.' Doesn't that set off a small alarm bell for you? Early in her book circuit she admitted that her publisher asked her to take out most of the things she said about teh FLDS that were positive. That should make you rethink your bias.She wrote the book, gave multiple interviews, appeared on television and radio, and never once said anything about 'waterboarding' babies. ONly AFTER waterboarding made the news and AFTER the FLDS raid did she make that accusation. That should make a careful, unbiased person a bit suspicious.

I don't discount every thing the ex FLDS say. I just don't accept it as face value, nor do I think it's fair to assume that each of their experiences is representative of every family in the FLDS. You do.

"Oh my goodness, for a seasoned advocate you seem to be pretty thin skinned!Calling you a few well deserved names, or making observations about what you have on your public self-description doesn't constitute a meltdown!"

You assume that I was insulted or otherwise saw this as nothing more than an illogical and irrational rant by someone who was highly emotional.

"And, thus far, you did not answer my question to the bluesman, nor has he. It will be interesting to see if Ranger Long answers the same direct question.Something tells me he will try to do the same dance the two of you are doing. Hopefully the judge will order him to answer the question asked.You seem to have made up a question you preferred to answer and put it on auto-play in your head to completely drown out the actual question....Old, rather boring trick many less than deft lawyers play......"

Well, what exactly is your question? I'm actually trying to give you a rational response. All I see you doing is running around ranting about FIVE DAYS like you've discovered some smoking gun that's going to turn this case on its head.

"Oh, by the by, you might want to brush up on the difference between "your" and "you're"."

"And, sweetie, walking away from a person who is annoying you, rather than blasting them into the next century is certainly not childlike behavior. Me letting loose with the kind of language I was inclined to would have been childlike.You and your ilk, tend to really annoy me with your refusal to use even a modicum of common sense in your blind approach to this set of issues concerning the FLDS. It is incomprehensible to me...."

Uh, sweetie, the fact that you're so upset that you even need to walk away or feel the need to "blast" someone shows how emotionally volatile you are.

My "ilk?" How dare you insult my ilk. I love them, they touch my heart and I identify with them. Even before this mess I'd check on them and feel this strange longing for them.

If the FLDS say it, it must be suspect because of their attitudes toward the gentiles.

Honestly, if you want to stick your head in the sand despite all the testimony by ex-members, Mohave county law enforcement, and others, then by all means continue to view them as some poor hated group.

I'm actually with you that you can't use the "group" brush to paint each individual or separate family group.

I do think the leadership to be a fairly sinister lot. The problem I have with individuals is their willingness to do whatever the "prophet" tells them to do.

If the FLDS say it, it must be suspect because of their attitudes toward the gentiles.

Which is?

Honestly, if you want to stick your head in the sand despite all the testimony by ex-members, Mohave county law enforcement, and others, then by all means continue to view them as some poor hated group.

She's not holding her head in the sand. She explained why she doesn't consider much of that testimony trustworthy. If you think she's wrong in that regard, than how about taking on her specific assertions about Dan Fisher, Flora Jessop, et al.?

The FLDS believe that gentiles are beneath contempt. They are to be manipulated, lied to, or mocked. They believe that soon some event will destroy the gentiles and return the FLDS to their "priesthood" over the world.

I could debate the headmistress on the relative merits of former FLDS members as well as writers, governmental officials, and others who speak against the FLDS.

You've flipped for sure. Either that or you really don't know what you're talking about.

WSJ refers to Warren Steed Jeffs, prophet of the FLDS.

I very carefully read the entire posting and nowhere... I repeat NOWHERE did I read anything about the following quote from you.

"The FLDS believe that gentiles are beneath contempt. They are to be manipulated, lied to, or mocked. They believe that soon some event will destroy the gentiles and return the FLDS to their "priesthood" over the world."

If you know anything at all about the Bible, people other than "the chosen ones" were referred to as Gentiles.

I happen to believe that distinction applied to the difference between Jew and Gentile or those of us who were not Jews and could not become Jews. It meant you were Greek, Roman, or something else... maybe Samaritan, etc.

It's not a stretch to understand how the FLDS uses "Gentile" as they (the FLDS) believe they are the chosen ones.

No, Lucille, he won't even consider looking into the accounts of ex FLDS members who are not hostile (i.e. former 'lost boys,' Laureen Jessop), or Anti FLDS activists who are embarrassed by Flora's lies and excesses- because, after all, I- who have looked at both sides and tempered my views as a result- I'm the stubborn one who won't change my mind.=)

Shari, Headmistress,I've got this theory....I've been working on it for awhile. I'm thinking it's something like Down's Syndrome. One day we're going to find the gene, or set of genes or chromosones, or whatever....but it has to do with common sense. Or, more specifically, lack of it. One of my sons is severely afflicted by this. And I know others. It seems to be preponderant in males, however, once in awhile, you do see female victims.How it manifests itself seems to be influenced by environment and social influences, but I am sure there is an underlying genetic anamoly.I think one of the biggest barriers to discovering exactly what it is and how to go about correcting it is hindered by the fact that the funding and scientific research communities are dominated by males. We are probably generations away from making the leap from theory to discovery...Anyway, I think there are several posters who are victims of this terrible affliction. And, from my personal experiences, I'd venture to say that there is no altering the phenomenom once it has matured in the biology of the sufferer.Anyway, I just wanted to share my thinking with you guys....Once I came to terms with the reality of this issue, I was able to have a much easier time accepting, and forgiving....They can't help it....and like so many diseases of the brain, it is a 'hidden' affliction, making it all the more awful....who knows, it may turn out to be akin to Autism, or on that spectrum....Have a great day, Ladies!!!!

You know, I've got a theory also. A whole lot of people play out their family of origin issues into this case. They also will project from their own problem with their own children or families into the situation. It's probably the same reason that many of them already claim to be "family advocates."

They get hyper-emotional because of this and act like children. They lose all objectivity because they are not looking at things clearly and are just playing out their own dramas. They attract and actively recruit sycophants who actively support them in their hyper emotional delusional thinking.

Ron,You seem to think that emotionalism, or emotional investment, is a bad thing.Personally, I think it is a good thing. Emotional investment is what has driven the greatest people in the history of humankind. Unfortunately, it is driving the people and forces behind this debacle, as well as those of us who are invested in stemming them.It certainly drives you. Why would you invest so much potentially billable time into interacting with us?Once again you have created an illogical argument.One's history, or experiential base is an enormous part of every thinking person's critical thinking apparatus. Yours included.Of course I have experiences that have brought me to the place where I recognize the abject necessity to look critically, clearly, and hopefully, objectively, at all aspects of an issue before coming to any conclusions or beliefs. I'd be a fool to not use my experience in life. And I'd be a fool to not continually add, and assess, experiences as they occur, to my personal data base.It's only a stupid person who believes he is so smart he no longer needs to learn.

My emotional investment in this is an unquestionable belief in fairness. An unquestionable belief in the rightness of the adage, "people rise to the level of expectations put upon them." An unquestionable belief that the FLDS people have been singled out for bias and descrimination and that is WRONG. And, fianlly, an unquestionable belief that I, personally, have a moral and ethical obligation, as a thinking and aware individual, to stand up and speak out, and not bury my head in the sand, when I see people being hurt.Yes, I am very, very emotionally invested in this. And that is a very, very good thing.

On another note...I also think it is abjectly important to NEVER lose one's sense of humor..... perhaps that is something you might want to take a look at....

Interacting with you is actually a nice distraction from the tedium of office work.

My experience tells me that I lose my objectivity when I become emotionally involved. Perhaps you don't; however, I think as a general rule it's hard to maintain objectivity when you're emotionally invested.

I've never said that the FLDS are not the subject of bias and discrimination. My argument is that they are not a sympathetic group and have done many things themselves that contribute to their current situation. To say it's all the fault of the evil state of Texas is in and of itself a form of bias.

It just seems that you and your "ilk" (your word not mine) want to portray these people as nice, simple, little house on the prairie types. Inside that group, I'm sure some of them are that way. However, as a group, they are not that way.

In many ways I'd draw the analogy to a communist dictatorship. In any country that is a communist dictatorship, there are many, many wonderful people. However, it doesn't change the fact that their country as a whole is a problem in the world.

The many nice people in the FLDS blindly follow their prophet. Just like in the Milgram experiment, nice people will often do bad things when placed into an authority situation. They may think their 12, 13, 14, or 15 year old daughter too young to become "spiritually united." However, when faced with the authority situation, they will assent.

I'm also amazed at your hypocrisy. When CPS separates children you shriek and howl. However, Warren Jeffs routinely takes children away from their fathers. He engages in the most horrible form of parental alienation. Many of these father's have done nothing to the children. They have worked hard to provide for them. Not only are the children taken away, they are also taught to hate the father as an apostate. Yet, you say nothing.

Ron, Please tell me where you get the information that we are taught to hate our Fathers as an apostate when they have been ask to repent of what ever they did. Ron speak for yourself and not on our behalf, hate is never taught in any way or form amoung the FLDS we must love everyone and forgive everyone in order to be like our Father in Heaven (get it). I don't want to try to convince you different of your beliefs, but I ask that you not just come right out and lie about my beliefs. Yes Love is a belief and is taught in ever way amoung the FLDS not hate. Be sure you get it right. I could tell you experience of this but that would be throwing "Pearls before Swine"

Ron,Despite what you may think, based on your very LIMITED knowledge of me, I am actually one of the best family advoctes you can find. That is the result of an enormous amalgam of history and experience. Not the least of which is my educational backgroud. Probably not dissimilar to your own. It taught me complex critical thinking. It also taught me, early on, ways I did not want to earn a living. One does not have to be a member of a bar, or work within the American construct of "lawyer", to be an advocate.Hopefully, that will afford you some insight into 'how' I think.

Add to that my age, ergo extent of opportunity to 'experience' life, and all that being a white, middle-class, east coast (although I did live in S.F. for several years in the early-mid seventies), baby boomer affords...and you have my basic architecture.

Your characterization that the FLDS are not sympathetic, as a group, speaks to your failure to have examined them beyond the easily available information, much of which is derived from the angry claims of the disenfranchised.

In addition it is a failure to examine the cultural differences. Particularly those differences in language. You, and others of your persuasion, have a language that is industry unique. Many words have one generic meaning in common English, yet have a very specific meaning in 'legalese'. Such is the case with the FLDS. However, one only begins to understand this when one takes the time to 'learn' the culture. The word "marriage", for instance, is very different in the FLDS culture than it is in mainstream America.

The other thing that you appear to be somewhat obtuse about is not 'hearing' what I, and others, have repeatedly said. To wit; we do not agree with everything about the FLDS culture or beliefs, however, our argument of the moment is not with their beliefs, rather with the way Texas has chosen to react to those beliefs.

Although many of us who are seen as protagonists for the FLDS agree that there are cultural changes that should occur, we feel that the larger issue is one of Texas practice. We also concur that there are other, more apt to be fruitful, forums for addressing needed change within the group.Angry, adversarial, public, blogs and forums is not a productive or respectful way to engage folks in an examination of their culture. Period.

Concerning the issue of the harm that was caused the children by their removal vs. potential harm caused by separation from their fathers, well, that's an apples and oranges thing. You cannot lump them together in the same discussion because they are in no way related issues.

One is a matter of wrongful action on the part of a public entity. The other is a matter of cultural practice. One is 'fair game' for open public discussion and criticism on a blog about legal practices in Texas. The other is a religious and cultural practice that could be appropriately discussed in a forum about the same. Or in private discussions with involved parties. Very different venues. Very different topics.

As for objectivity and emotionalism and being 'passionate'...I think that has to be part of the mix. A good advocate is passionate in his/her presentation and argument. A good critical thinker can take either side of an issue and argue it passionately. Simultaneously never losing sight of their own beliefs, which may, or may not jive with those being argued.Have you never had a 'gut feeling' about something that logic and abstract knowledge told you was 'crazy'? Have you ever then taken that gut feeling and examined it, and the abstract, or empiracal knowledge, and found that the known knowledge base was wrong, and your 'gut' had been right, all along? How about when all that was holy in the courts and the research said that young children never lie, that children who behave badly have bad parents, that ADD and ADHD are not real, they are the products of liberal psycho-babble?????And your gut told you that there was credibility to the premise that children, even very young ones can and do lie instinctively, that many really good parents have children who act out, and ADD and ADHD are physical, probably genetic conditions...and the research has, or has almost "proved" these things...so your gut was right, all along....

Why is it so inconcievable that the reality of the FLDS may be different than what you are currently believing???...why are you so reluctant to examine?????

And, by the by...the YfZ ranch comes far closer to true communism than any totalitarian government ever has, or is.....

And I have no clue whether I've made any sense, have covered everything I wanted to, or have just written in Greek...but I have to be somewhere in 27 minutes that is going to take me 45 to get to....

well, owe this blog a sincere debt of gratitude...was able to get out of a Q.A. mtg for an MCO.....didn't really want to go...they REALLY didn't want me there...all is good...Ron, I called you an idiot on Brooke's blog...I appologize for that...although you do say some of the most idiotic things...which is why I din't recant, nor do I appologize for having called you a blowhard...

Well thanks, I suppose, for reporting yourself. I probably never would have known that you called me an idiot over at Brooke's blog since I read but generally don't comment.

The real question is why you feel the need to engage in such ad hominem attacks. Is it insecurity? Is it some personality defect? Is it a mental health issue?

You and your "ilk" don't seem to like people who disagree with you. You fly into fits of apoplexy, you start calling names and just act like general internet asshats. I witnessed you do this to txbluesman and now with me.

ron,you and the bluesman are too, too funny....talk about ad hominem attacks...look at your last post!!!!

I think I have both of you in a state of twisted britches.....

When all else fails, call Regina 'emotional' and 'unstable', use the buzz words that usually divert the attackee into a state of defensiveness and then they'll let up on the real issues...and the attacker can slink away and regroup...no, no, no....Mama don play dat way.....

You're so used to being the most adroit of the verbal bullies you just get all sorts of bent out of shape when anyone comes along that not only keeps up, but corners you....and your way out of the corner is......ad hominem attacks!!!!

hehehehe

honey, take a break...go home and play with the kidlets and barbeque something tasty...have a cold few....and then boot the old home 'puter when you've had your chance to regroup....we all need that, from time to time...no shame in it.....

I'm going to find myself a nice, cold glass of juice and go sit by the pond and watch the fish....

Isn't it nice to be secure in the fact that it isn't us they're coming for, today???????

I’m an investigative journalist and the author of 19 non-fiction books. Since 1985, I’ve been writing about that line where religion crosses over into criminal behavior. In early 2006, my wife, Joyce, suggested that I look into the story of Warren Jeffs and the FLDS, because she believed that women in particular would be interested in this story. She was right, and this is a significant point. Historically, societies can be measured by how they treat women and children.

That spring, I began traveling to Colorado City, Arizona, interviewing townspeople, ex-church members, and law enforcement. In 1953, Arizona had raided this community to root out the FLDS polygamous lifestyle, and had failed both legally and in terms of public opinion. Fifty years later, the state was employing criminal investigation techniques to target specific individuals who were breaking the law, and they were having success. Both Arizona and Utah were building a new approach to tackling what many have called religious terrorism.

One victory came with the capture of fugitive Warren Jeffs, the Prophet or leader of the FLDS. In September 2007, he was convicted on two counts of accomplice to rape for forcing a fourteen-year-old girl to marry her first cousin. Back in the 1970s, Jeffs was the principal of the FLDS-run Alta Academy, just outside Salt Lake City, and students there later described how he’d abused them emotionally and physically. His nephew, Brent Jeffs, eventually sued Warren and two of his brothers, alleging that when Brent was five, they’d repeatedly sodomized him in a bathroom in the school basement. Brent’s brother, Clayne, another victim of these attacks, committed suicide. In 2004, when Brent filed a lawsuit against the Prophet, Jeffs responded to this legal action the same way he had to the American government and our criminal justice system: he’d ignored them. As the FLDS Prophet, he’s also ignored:

1) The child labor laws of Arizona, Utah, and Nevada. Young FLDS boys were sent off to work in the church’s construction companies, and because they were hardworking and unpaid, the sect could underbid the competition and generate both private and government business. One FLDS-run company, New Era Manufacturing, has a Department of Defense contract for aircraft wheel and brake manufacturing worth $1.2 million. JNJ Engineering has an $11.3 million deal with the Las Vegas Valley Water District. A third FLDS company, Paragon Contractors Corporation, has been fined more than $10,000 by the U.S. Department of Labor for employing twelve-to-fifteen-year-old boys, and not paying them.

2) Jeffs ignored the Mann Act, which makes it illegal for minors to cross state lines for sexual purposes. As the Prophet, he routinely commanded men to marry women and teenage girls in secret ceremonies in Caliente, Nevada, across the border from the FLDS home base in the twin towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona.

3) Jeffs ignored the laws against bigamy and underage marriage in Arizona and Utah, selecting the men who’d receive new brides and joining them in “spiritual marriages.” These “plural wives” with dependent children then became eligible for welfare payments -- and welfare fraud. Colorado City has received eight times the welfare assistance of comparably-sized towns in the area. Despite violating these laws, Colorado City has been awarded $1.9 million from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development to pave the streets and improve the fire department and water system; more than $12 million a year from Arizona in health insurance premiums for the poor; and a $2.8 million airport from Washington, D.C. The FLDS openly despises the American government while taking its money, a tactic they call “bleeding the beast.”

4) Jeffs ignored the fate of hundreds of teenage males in his community -- known as “Lost Boys” -- after they rebelled against forced child labor and his other harsh rules. He tossed them out of Colorado City and Hildale, leaving them to fend for themselves on the streets of St. George, Utah, Salt Lake City, and Las Vegas. Some of the young men broke laws and were arrested, burdening local police departments and publicly-funded social services.

5) Jeffs ignored outside law enforcement because the border towns’ police force was made up of FLDS members utterly loyal to their Prophet. After Jeffs had gone underground to avoid arrest, Colorado City Police Chief Fred Barlow wrote him the following letter: “Dear Uncle Warren, I would first like to acknowledge you as the one man that was and is called of God to stand at the head of his priesthood and the Kingdom of God on the earth in this day and time. I rejoice in the peace that comes over me when I follow the directives that you have sent to me through Uncle William Timpson...I am praying for you to be protected and yearn to be with you again...And I know that you have the right to rule in all aspects of my life...”

6) Jeffs ignored the genetic disorders caused by the sect’s inbreeding. In Colorado City and Hildale, Phoenix pediatric neurologist Dr. Theodore Tarby uncovered the largest occurrence in the world of a rare disease called Fumarese Deficiency, which produces overly large heads, misshapen brains, deformities, seizures, and even death. The severe condition was one more drain on public monies needed for medical care.

7) Following his arrest, Jeffs and his lawyers successfully fought efforts to get at FLDS financial records, stored on computers in the vehicle in which the Prophet had been traveling. No complete picture exists of the FLDS income streams that supported Jeffs’ lavish fugitive lifestyle, paid his colossal legal bills or other vast expenses. In 2003, the FLDS bought the Texas ranch for about $700,000. Today it has an assessed value of $20.5 million. Where did all the funds come from for these improvements, and for other purchases of land in South Dakota and more recently in Colorado? Has money been laundered or taxes evaded?

Until the FLDS is thoroughly investigated by those with subpoena power, the full extent of the sect’s sexual abuse, forced marriage, underage marriage, and financial schemes will remain unknown. A nationwide network now exists of people who’ve escaped the FLDS and understand its workings from the inside out. They’ve spent years trying to get law enforcement to investigate the sect more fully, are willing to testify against Jeffs and his church, and they’d welcome federal action. The FLDS has become both a national phenomenon and a national problem -- creating generations of victims spread across the Southwest. None of this is about religious freedom or faith, and FLDS members should not be treated any differently from any other American citizen. This is about uncovering and prosecuting individual criminal behavior by those who’ve violated state and federal laws, which is the best way to stop those who terrorize in the name of God. I respectfully ask you to consider these words and warnings from someone who’s spent more than two years investigating this sect. Thank you.

If this were about child rape the Pope wold not have got a royal welcome to this country. Instead, he would be sharing a cell next to Jeff's. Those absentee crimes are creative.FLDS members are living as they have always lived. The outside obsession for virgin brides shows far too much penis-envy. At the Federal Senate hearing committee we declared this to be a national problem. Some here don't want Regina around because she knows the difference between chicken s**t and chicken salad. Stick to dishing out the salad and you won't end up in the hot seat.

Most of us (I think) who support the FLDS had no prior knowledge or biases. We saw inhumane acts being committed against citizens.

People usually relocate for something more attractive so I have no immediate concerns about how things are done in another state. Warren Jeffs is locked away and keeps trying to commit suicide. My interest is in what the TX residents are doing since these life changing events.Another delusion about our government bit the dust right in this forum when I learned that Warren Jeffs "had to be put on the most wanted list because it was the only way authorities could find him". Although I often questioned the selection I was naive enough to fall for this government trickery

ron, people have already pointed out, often with news articles linked, almost every one of the instances of FLDS activity you pasted in your last post. Of course it's hypocritical for people on Grits to discount everything ex-FLDS members say while not casting the same skeptical eye on the FLDS. This has already been pointed out on Grits.

Some people don't expect individuals who are members of a religiously authoritarian group to be held personally responsible for disastrous or illegal decisions, but they will at the same time say people are free to "choose" to leave or "choose" their spouses. They assume there's freedom enough to leave, but don't assign blame when these conditioned "free" people keep turning a blind eye to abuse.

People on this blog have defended the FLDS for using eugenics, even though it results in fumarase deficiency. They have said that it's wrong to judge when girls are sealed into marriages with older men not of their choosing. They have said that the majority of Americans are brainwashed, and maybe the FLDS are the ones who know what they're doing. The people who say this don't try to join the group, of course. Their words don't match their actions. They just talk.

Anyway, this is like what Grits posted on "knowing." People can argue this until the cows come home, but there are many who will internally believe, through their own experiences, religious sympathies, sexist ideas, family structures, educations, WHATEVER, that there are reasons to feel sympathetic to the FLDS. There is a core level of irrationality to all of this, and an irrational abuse of ellipses, I might add.

Oh my goodness....When the cat's away, the mice will play....Ron, Ron, Ron....posting that Singular nonsense, and in its entirty...that's not nice! Why you're doing a "John Lester" on us!

Singular based his "research" on the same ole angry people everyone else does. And, despite his testimony that he interviewd community residents, deliberately giving the impression that he had interviewed FLDS members, he did not! He may have talked with some folks who still reside in the community who are not FLDS members. However, church members wanted nothing to do with him.

His accounts of Warren Jeffs are also misleading. I don't know if the 'suicide' attempts are real or not. I do know that fasting is a common form of prayer within the group. Fasting is not suicidal! I also know that statements have been attributed to Mr. Jeffs that seem to clash with much of his preachings and teachings. From what I understand, and I could be wrong, here, many of those statements were taken out of context and many were made at a time when Mr. Jeffs was either fasting, or had just completed fasting. A state we know scientifically, that can induce delusions, hallucinations, and altered thinking. So I personally would not go to the bank with anything a person said under those circumstances.

The issue of Fumarase Deficiency is a problem. And it is a problem that could very probably be addressed and resolved if we, the larger society were to approach the leaders with respectful offers to help. Not 'blame and shame' tactics.

Oh, and not to lose sight of the original topic...

I'm still waiting to hear how you fellas explain why Ranger Long, et al, did not take advantage of the FIVE DAY LAPSE to authenticate Rozita Swinton's calls, and verify the whereabouts of the alleged perpetrator????I know, I know, they had to prepare the forces in case they were facing another Waco...we've all heard that....and debunked it, but you fellas don't want to hear that...Anyway, moving on....Unless you are prepared to tell me every single investigator working for law enforcement in Texas was busy with the assault preparations, then could you please explain why Ranger Long's affidavit falls so short of the legally required due dilligence in assurring the veracity of the statements contained therein??????

Please don't tell me he wasn't required to do so....please.....as difficult as it may be for you to concede, I am not stupid! And, I am tough as nails. As a side bar...You just better hope that you don't get someone of my "ilk" crossing the good ranger.... maybe immunity can be arranged for him, too....now wouldn't that just be the cat's pyjamas!!!!!

Oh, and Ron, I wasn't saying, or implying you NEEDED a break...or a drink, or a beer...I was simply saying how nice it is to be able to have that luxury...the luxury of knowing you can relax with your family...enjoy whatever rituals you have...and not fear being interrupted by the government.....

I am now very aware of just what a luxury that is....and just how easily it can be lost....those inalienable rights ain't so inalienable.....

Of course, Stephen Singular should not be trusted. Only you have a calm, reasoned and rational view of this situation.

If you don't know the details about Jeff's suicide attempts, how can you realistically say his account is misleading? You say "From what I know..." How about just saying you don't have any clue about it and he's probably better informed than you are?

There you go again shrieking FIVE DAYS again like you've found JFK's magic bullet or the alien bodies from Roswell. OK, I won't tell you why he wasn't required to investigate, why don't you stop shrieking FIVE DAYS and give a realistic legal argument for why Ranger Long needed to investigate the source of the call. Can you do that before I hear you say FIVE DAYS again?

Yes, I'd love to see you in court, cross examining Ranger Long. That would be quite a scene. I'm sure Ranger Long is losing sleep at this very moment that you or your "ilk" may get to the REAL FLDS lawyer and start prepping them.

Ron, here is what you wrote in this thread that led me to think you were born and/or raised on the reservation:

"As a group, Native Americans do have problems with both diabetes and alcohol. Since I'm from the group, I can say that alcoholism on the reservation is a big problem that needs to be addressed."

You spoke as someone who, because of membership in the group (Indians who live on reservations), has knowledge and insight the rest of us might lack, and which cloaks you with an authority on the subject. I think it was not too great a jump on my part to conclude that you have actually lived on a reservation. My mistake: There was a huge credibility gap in your comments into which I stupidly stumbled. I'll keep that in mind when reading your future comments.

Now you say you've been to the reservation only one time in your life. If that is the case, then you are no more of an authority on reservation matters than anyone else who has visited a reservation or read about the problems there. In fact, you probably have very little actual, first hand knowledge of what it means to live on a reservation.

I suspect that to be true also of your beliefs and comments about FLDS. Have you ever visited with members of FLDS, at their homes or somewhere else?

What I find interesting about the Wikipedia discussion of the Ghost Dance and Ghost Shirt are the close parallels that you could be drawing between the Plains Indians and the FLDS membership. If you read the entry, let us know the points with which you disagree, particularly with the parallels between what you see as the perverse influence of Warran Jeffs as a prophet, and the perverse influence of the Indian prophets who so mis-led the Plains Indians.

If you and tx really do have ancestors among the Plains Indians, then you guys have reason to be really suspicious of prophets. You and he had great-grandparents who allowed themselves to be mis-led by prophets into believing that a song and dance and a cotton shirt would turn bullets. No wonder you might be dubious of all prophets and somewhat rabid in your comments about FLDS prophets.

First, I was born on the rez, I don't live there now, although I have numerous family members still on the rez.

Second, my tribe didn't buy off on the Ghost Dance prophecy of Wovoka. Our people fought on the side of the British in the Revolution, but subsequent to that, did not fight against the U.S. again - starting with their refusal to follow the prophecy of Tenskwatawa - why then should they have followed a Paiute? Besides, by 1890, compared to the Plains tribes like the Lakota, my people were doing relatively well.

Third, I never said I was from a Plains tribe, and I believe that Ron indicated that he was Choctaw, one of the Five Civilized Tribes.

Fourth, not all tribes are alike - there are over 500 recognized tribes, and numerous unrecognized ones. We're different, just as Germans are different from Italians, the French, etc.

Frankly, it is not a secret among Native Americans that our people have problems with alcohol or diabetes - one only has to look at one's family history. In my case, my father, grandfather, and grandmother all had diabetes. It's not hard to keep up with it when it tends to affect your people.

Finally, many of us that are off the rez keep up with what's going on through newspapers dealing with our issues.

Doran, where does this overwhelming desire to lump all Native Americans together in one group come from? Is it because we all 'look alike' or dress funny? Or is it just a continuation of the long-term discrimination of Texans against the tribes? I can't think of one Texan that has been supportive of Native Americans since Sam Houston died - can you?

ts said: "Doran, where does this overwhelming desire to lump all Native Americans together in one group come from?"

I have no such desire. I used some examples of bigoted lumping together, to illustrate the similarity to what you and Ron have been doing vis-a-vis FLDS members. The two of you, as per usual, have misrepresented what I've done. Since you do that kind of thing so often, and with so many people on various blogs with whom you disagree, I am concerned that you do so because of a basic dysfunction in your personalities and not simply as a cheap debating ploy.

American Indians were treated wretchedly, no doubt about it. The same bigoted mind set which sought to "cleanse" Texas of American Indians is at work today seeking to "cleanse" Texas of the FLDS. The same softening up techniques have been used: Demonization, appeals to prejudice and bias, and borderline illegal, if not totally illegal, acts by the government, to name a few.

I'm thinking we need to initiate a Mirabeau B. Lamar award for those people involved in the attempt to drive the FLDS to extinction, as sought to drive the Cherokees and Comanches to extinction. May I put your name in, that is, nominate you, for the first award?

It's not bigotry to say that Orthodox Jewish people believe in strict dietary laws. You can't say that about all Jewish people because there are different branches of Judaism.

The FLDS have no such divisions. You're either 100% in or your 100% out. If you're FLDS and the prophet tells you that you must marry your 13 year old, you either go along or you're not FLDS.

"Lumping together" or talking about a group does not make one a bigot. If anything is a cheap debate ploy to say because you're speaking of a group that you're a bigot. If you say, "a number of Native Americans have problems with alcohol," you're not being a bigot and you're making a true statement about a group of people.

Honestly, if I had to say who I was more ideologically aligned with in the pissing match between you and Blues, I'd probably say you and I are more ideological aligned.

You're just so outraged at the acts of the state and so into "white knight" mode that you don't see that it's not some fair damsel you're rescuing but actually an ugly witch.

For the record my paternal grandfather was a Nebraska Winnebago. So, I'm 1/4 blood. However, my half-aunts are full blooded Winnebago who live and work on the reservation. While never claiming to be an expert, I have personally seen and have talked with my aunts about the problem of Native Americans and alcohol. Blues is obviously much more in touch with the history and culture than I can claim to be.

Let's see....Some of us recognize problems, offer many alternative solutions...our thinking evolves as we become better informed....

then there are some of us who sang a refrain on day one, and haven't changed our tune since...which, in order to stay in tune, has required us to abjectly ignore any new information that could potentially alter our tune...'cause we like our tune....

Some of us actually would like to move forward...Some of us have found a comfort zone in the dark ages....or caves...take your pick.....

Some of us can dish and take....Some of us can only dish....

Some of us a broad, progressive thinkers...Some of us are stuck, unable to think...

Ron, Bad analogy....As the Hasidim are to Jewish sects, so to are the FLDS to Mormon sects....There are many divisions within both Judaism and Mormonism....and, in fact, Judaism holds that if your mother is a jew, you are a jew. Irrespective of whether you practice the religion, or any aspect of it, or not...

Goes back to O.T 'mama's baby, daddy's maybe'....

The other thing folks are saying, in many shapes and forms, is this "white knight' thing....If y'all would just LISTEN...no one is in 'white knight mode'....I think everyone, including the FLDS themselves recognizes problems within the group. What most of us are concerned with is the fact that the methods employed by Texas, thus far, are not good ways to engender an atmosphere conducive to dialogue and change...in fact what Texas has done has hurt people....and created an adversarial situation, that by definition has to have winners and losers...We think there are better ways of doing business where everyone comes out a winner.....No White Knight Syndrome....rather, a genuine desire to stop the hurtful stuff and start addressing problem areas and find solutions/resolutions that everyone can live with....

I think the comparisons to some Native American history, etc. are nothing more than an attempt to move you folks in a more empathy driven direction...A way of thinking that isn't so riddled with bad information and bias....Despite all the barbs and garbage spewed....I think most of us keep holding out hope that you and bluesman, and some of the other brighter posters will begin to look at things differently....I know, we know, there are some who come on these blogs who are so locked into narrow thinking they will never, ever change...and chances are they live their lives off the blogs in just as nasty a frame of mind....but you and blues and others are bright and capable of more objective thinking...so we keep trying....

You're doing nothing better than advocating for that "poor beleaguered" group. You've taken on as a mission championing for that group. That's what I mean by "white knight."

Where you and I most fundamentally disagree is with their desire to change. Perhaps your sources admit there are problems with the group, but in general, they believe they are doing God's will. I'd love someone to point me to an FLDS source that admits to any mistake.

They'll likely change their policies on underage spiritual marriages, but it will be because they realize that their failure to do that will lead to continued scrutiny by the secular authorities as well as jail terms for those caught. I've yet to hear any FLDS person say that underage spiritual marriages are morally wrong.

don't get stuck on what you 'hear'....focus on results...If your goal is to not have FLDS allow marriages that are outside of the law in their jurisdiction of residence, then be happy when you get that. Don't get hung up on words.If your goal is to get FLDS to hve an edocrinologist do a work up before marriage to start eliminating the incidence of Fumarase Deficiency, then don't get hung up in words, be happy when a dialogue is openned to work out the process for that to happen.....knowhatimasayin??????

You folks who claim to not care what people BELIEVE need to walk the walk of that statement...that means to define the practical problems, together....explore options and alternative ways of addressing the identified problems, and move forward...and don't get hung up on the 'whys' of compliance, compromise, and change...

and Ron,If I personally thought that the individuals were as repugnant and reprehensible as they could get....I would still champion their cause....because if the government can do this to them, they can do it to anyone they choose...and that is what scares the bejesus out of me!I just think of it as a bonus that I have come to learn that the noisy naysayers are wrong..and have spun an out-of-control web of lies. My interactions with the FLDS have been wonderful. I have found them to be funny, wise, caring, engaging folks...but that's just the gravy....

"My interactions with the FLDS have been wonderful. I have found them to be funny, wise, caring, engaging folks...but that's just the gravy...."

rericson, I don't think anyone was accusing FLDS members of lacking in personality. Some people just don't happen to sympathize with decades of systemic child abuse, sexism, racism, forcible shuffling of families, eugenics, and delusions of grandeur, and they still don't sympathize when these behaviors culminate in illegal acts.

"If I personally thought that the individuals were as repugnant and reprehensible as they could get....I would still champion their cause...."

rericson, you said you will champion their cause, and you said so with much conviction. What is their cause? You have devoted yourself to it, but you won't succinctly explain it?

Until September 1, 2005, the State of Texas did not consider marriage to a 14 year old to be morally wrong. Even now, with a judge's permission, 14 year olds can marry.

Doran, what judges were approving the FLDS spiritual marriages? Were they bigamous? If so, they're null. And if sex between an adult and a person 14 or younger is considered aggravated sexual assault, there is a strong legal indication that society, in general, does not smile upon sexual (marital) relations between adults and 14 year olds.

"And if sex between an adult and a person 14 or younger is considered aggravated sexual assault, there is a strong legal indication that society, in general, does not smile upon sexual (marital) relations between adults and 14 year olds."

It has been the law in Texas for years and years and years that a Court can authorize the marriage of a "minor". "Minor" is defined as a person not yet 18 years of age.

Until September 1, 2005, a 14 year old could marry with parental permission.

Since that date, parental consent is effective only for person between the ages of 16 and 18. But a Court can authorize a 14 year old to marry. There is no indication in the statute that age of the bride or the groom is determinative of a Court's authority. The way the statute is written, a Court could authorize the marriage of a 10 year old.

doran, which courts were authorizing FLDS marriages involving 14 year olds? You did not answer my question.

You cite that the courts can authorize certain marriages of legal minors. That means they can say yes or no. Courts were not given the opportunity to recognize or refuse spiritual FLDS marriages, so your legal citations are insufficient, especially if the marriages would have been bigamous. Would courts have assented in that circumstance?

Which Texas courts have authorized marriages between 14 year olds and FLDS adults? Please tell us all so we can know there's legal precedence in approving this practice. Also, please tell us of any court that approved such a marriage when it was understood to be in a bigamous relationship.

tx, you are really promoting a police state approach to cultural change. There are other ways to accomplish your goals than ham-handed application of penal law and potential deadly violence by armed government agents. But that does solve it for you guys; you just gotta get the tanks/armored cars, automatic weaponry, and WWII German Style Helmets out of storage every now and then and use them.

You will gladly punish children for what you perceive to be the crimes of their parents; you will abuse children in your quest to punish private child abusers; you will carry on sactimoniously about saving "the victims," and then threaten the victims with jail if they don't play along with you; and you will ignore the child abuse inflicted by State agents. Can you spell P-O-L-I-C-E-S-T-A-T-E M-E-N-T-A-L-I-T-Y? Or T-O-T-A-L-I-T-A-R-I-A-N-I-S-M?

I'll believe you don't have a bias against FLDS, rather than a concern for child abuse, when I see you post this, your own statement, modified: "Obey the law CPS or go to jail."

Can you spell P-O-L-I-C-E-S-T-A-T-E M-E-N-T-A-L-I-T-Y? Or T-O-T-A-L-I-T-A-R-I-A-N-I-S-M?

One of the ways to spell it is FLDS.

Why abhor only secular fascists, but not religious fascists? Aren't both in violation of man's natural propensity for reason and self determination? Why complain about the Texas police state, but apologize for an oppressive religious organization?

tx, if the FLDS was sending 600 man, well-armed armies to arrest sinners in gated communities in Dallas, you would hear from me and so would they. Please, you make yourself look foolish with such juvenile arguments.

Morman NAMBLE? Outside the FLDS compound such things would not be tolerated? Children on the outside are not sexual and are never abused? We live in a morally pure environment. Those against the FLDS are the ones who are making the prophet into Superman.Bluesman, these people are not free due to the goodwill of fellow Americans. And we will arrest them if they don't follow the rules? In the minds of many they have already been convicted.This must be a mentally superior group of individuals. They just keep slipping away from seasoned professional trying to obtain info. Even from the mouth's of babes came nothing damaging. That is a miracle considering how CPS interrogates children.Did you ever consider that these are not the same people on whom your hatred is based?I don't know exactly what their cause is so maybe I am fighting against a bully government. This is not the 1st time these people have been subjected to raids and kidnappings. We need to insure that it does not happen again.This has become an attack on FLDS supporters. I didn't know who was being victimized when this story broke but it has never mattered. I am fighting the same battle I would fight for any group of people.I am a history buff and see those beautiful prairie dresses as works of art with fine tailoring. Don't bypass the beauty because you don't like the style.

"It is absurd to suggest that a court would authorize a bigamous marriage."

Exactly. There is no point in arguing for the infinite rights of the FLDS to marry as they want when they haven't used existing legal avenues in the past, and the permissive possibility of marrying at 14 years old was never an absolute right. It was always with the discretion of a judge. Now add the complication of bigamy to the equation. And you still want to imply the FLDS didn't contribute to their own legal woes? They flouted the very law you have been trying to use to state their case.

anon said, "...the permissive possibility of marrying at 14 years old was never an absolute right. It was always with the discretion of a judge."

Nope. Prior to September 2005, a 14 year old could get married with parents' permission; a court was not involved. A court could, upon the request of the 14 year old, or 10 year old, authorize a marriage. But if the parents consented, the court was not involved.

Since September 05, the age has been 16 for getting married with parental consent. Again, if the parents consent, a court is not involved.

So what laws did all the FLDS people at the YFZ Ranch at Eldorado "flaunt?"

Ron, take a few days away from the internet. We seem to be driving you crazy.

A Utah entrepreneur who has waged a public campaign to assist teens who fled or were kicked out of a polygamous sect was an abusive father and husband who abandoned some of his own children, according to affidavits submitted Thursday to the Senate Judiciary Committee. The allegations against Dan Fischer, founder of South Jordan-based Ultradent Products Inc., are detailed in sworn statements from a former wife, three children, three siblings and others familiar with his family. Fischer testified before the committee Thursday in a hearing requested by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., who is pushing for a federal investigation of the FLDS. The 14 affidavits were submitted by Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City lawyer and spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Six affidavits also were posted Thursday on an FLDS Web site, truthwillprevail.org. Melinda Fischer Jeffs, Dan Fischer's oldest daughter, said in her statement she was severely beaten by her father at age 17 after flirting with boys over the telephone, a beating that left her "black and blue from my waist to my knees." Fischer Jeffs also describes listening as a child as her father and his plural wives fought in an upstairs room. "I remember times when a mother would stay in her room for a week on account of the black eye she received at the hand of my dad," Fischer Jeffs said in her statement. "I also remember seeing scratches and bumps on my dad after a fight."

there is more at the Tribune site. Also a link to some of the affidavits at Truth Will Prevail.

Ron, I do think you have some kind of reading comprehension problem. His accusers last name is Jeffs?

Not so. Here are the authors of the affidavits, as the article I posted clearly pointed out: "The allegations against Dan Fischer, founder of South Jordan-based Ultradent Products Inc., are detailed in sworn statements from a former wife, three children, three siblings and others familiar with his family."

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