Hi all... Linda prompted my by email to see if I would facilitate this thread ...so ok... i have a few weeks at home without travel so let's get rolling on Libra :-) Linda ... Thank you for your thourough and thoughtful job on Virgo. I'll post some preliminary outlines later to get the ball rolling.

Let’s start our discussion with understanding the Natural archetype and it’s evolutionary intentions as it relates to human consciousness.. Then we can get into how souls evolve through the archetype and the various ways it can be dysfunctional thru karmic experience and collective distortion.

I’d like to start with this quote from Martin Buber (Austrian born Jewish philosopher)

“Egos appear by setting themselves apart from other egos; persons appear by entering into relation to other persons.” – Martin Buber

This captures one of the core intentions of the Libra archetype, to become a socialized being. In the natural wheel of the zodiac Libra is the first sign that initiates (Cardinal) consciousness into the transpersonal upper half of the chart. The personal ego self is formed and refined in the lower half of the chart and after the adjustments made in Virgo, the ‘self’ emerges above the horizon to grow beyond it’s limitations. Thus, Libra is a sign of objectification, learning to really know and hear others viewpoints, understand their needs etc..and learning about oneself through relationship (comparison / contrast / relativity)..

Libra is ruled by Venus in (what I call) her outer nature. The inner side of Venus is expressed thru her rulership of Taurus: our relationship to ourselves, which directly affects our ability to relate to others. This also may be another way of understanding Venus in her changing cycle as morning star (yang) and evening star (yin). Ideally, when our relationship to ourselves (Taurus) contains a healthy dose of self-worth and we have the self-sufficiency to identify and fulfill our personal needs, this is naturally reflected in the way we enter relationships; not looking for someone to fulfill us but to share of ourselves in equality. Relationships become the focus in Libra and the evolutionary intention of this archetype is to learn equal relatedness. Venus as ruler of the heart chakra also contains this natural truth that we say so commonly, “you can’t truly love someone else, until you love yourself” I do believe that the law of attraction is also part of Venus’s rulership here, as her natural expression of beauty and grace commonly associated with Libra.

JWG points out that Libra is commonly misunderstood as inherently balanced, when in fact it is evolving towards balance and of itself represents extremity. By swinging between extreme opposites, like a pendulum, balance is eventually found. This desire for balance is also expressed in Libra as seeking, harmony , equanimity and peace.

Libra as the sign that covers the descendant of the chart naturally also represents the Persona or Mask self. The ascendant of the chart (Naturally covered by Aries) represents the instinctual self while the descendant is the face we wear when we go into society and is created with more consciousness and thru subconscious social conditioning.

Ok lots to be said about just those few points, so let’s start there again with reflections upon the Natural or one might say empowered Librian Archetype.

Hi, wanted to participate on this thread. What comes to mind for me about the Libra archetype is the issue of giving and also receiving. It seems to me that in an empowered expression of this archetype the person would be able to withhold giving in situations that only promote a dependency upon him or herself, and also truly know what another person needs, not what he or she thinks the other person needs (listening to the reality of others as it exists for them). In other words, so often in the archetype, because of an underlying need to be needed, the person does not know how to truly give to others in a way that does not sustain a dependency upon themselves, and only perpetuates the experience of not having their own legitimate needs meet because of the mutual codependency (projected needs and expectations) that is created by such a dynamic (this creates the extremes and imbalances within the Libra archetype). The person may also not be able to receive what comes their way because of their own unconscious projected needs and expectations (displaced emotions) and may feel that no matter how much they give they are not given to in ways that they truly need. Again, it is the issue of equal giving and receiving, and the underlying need to be needed that need to be address in order to create equality and balance within relationships (purge the extremes). In an empowered state, the Libra archetype will manifest as a person who has strong and healthy boundaries within relationships (knowing when to give and when not to), and would not change or adapt (compromise or compensate) or his or her natural identity within relationships or society in order to gain acceptance or approval. The person could maintain his or identity within relationships and in society in this way, and serve as a natural counselor to others who knows how to give to others in the ways that are truly needed. Deva

Libra is a sign of objectification, learning to really know and hear others viewpoints, understand their needs etc.........so let’s start there again with reflections upon the Natural or one might say empowered Libran Archetype.

........and also truly know what another person needs, not what he or she thinks the other person needs (listening to the reality of others as it exists for them).

Hi Patricia and Deva,

We always talk about Libra in one-to-one "relationships" - but I thought another expression of Libran empowerment could be how one deals with others in a group situation, of any size.

A well developed Libran would naturally see the "different perspectives" of others - the ability to see many different points of view. There would be a natural acceptance and enjoyment of diversity, that would engender a feeling of goodwill among the group.

In this way, the Libran archetype is in line with the Natural Law of "sharing, giving and inclusion" since it does not seek to dominate with it's own ideas, but is willing to really listen, and to accept the variety and diversity of ideas...so that everyone gets a chance to express themselves - and each individual's particular point of view is respected.

For this reason, for example, I imagine that this quality of "acceptance" would work rather well in a group situation, so that harmony, balance, grace and a spirit of cooperation is maintained. Of course, this quality would be essential for peace in the socialized world.

I guess this is why Saturn (organization, structure) is said to be exalted in the sign of Libra.

We always talk about Libra in one-to-one "relationships" - but I thought another expression of Libran empowerment could be how one deals with others in a group situation, of any size.

A well developed Libran would naturally see the "different perspectives" of others - the ability to see many different points of view. There would be a natural acceptance and enjoyment of diversity, that would engender a feeling of goodwill among the group.

"Groups" is Aquarius, which trines Libra (both air signs). Thus the Aquarius archetypes resonate with the Libra archetypes. (Rad discussed this in a post the other day about decants within a sign.)

Libra will objectively participate in groups (Aquarius) and form one to one relationships with people within the group (Libra). Steve (who has 11th house south node in Libra)

Libra will objectively participate in groups (Aquarius) and form one to one relationships with people within the group (Libra). Steve (who has 11th house south node in Libra)

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the clarification for Libra/Aquarius.

Libra seeks involvement with a wide variety of people - not all at once like in a group situation - but rather with separate individuals. This can lead to a great variety of friends, and to intimate and committed relationships.

Libra learns about its own individuality through a compelling need to compare its own beliefs, values, and personal nature with the diversity of many other individuals.

Ok… so lets start to look at Libra as it relates to the individual expression and how it gets complicated or distorted based on personal karmas and/or collective experience.

My personal observations show me that two main themes arise, Co-dependency and Denial.

Lets start with co-dependency ………….

Co-dependency is generally a learned way of relating that stems certainly from prior life conditions and early familial conditioning. At the heart of this complex is the idea or belief that love cannot be given and received freely, but is based on conditions… ‘I need to change or you need to change’….most commonly expressed as “I need to change you”. The person who engages in relationship with this as their leading edge is usually acting from a subconscious ‘need to be needed’. Relating back to Venus as the ruler of Taurus… something is amiss in their relationship to themselves! There are a lot of psychological dynamics at work here. Projection of suppressed or subconscious needs: a compulsive adaptability ( often a long karmic history involved, of conforming to others expectations) and forming unrealistic ‘images’ of those we relate to (not seeing them for who they are, but who one wants them to be).

I’m going to quote from my Libra chapter on this….. Basically because I wrote it already and no need to write it again

(Start Quote)

“When Libra is a part of the karmic signature, all sorts of complications in relating come into focus in the current life to be worked on and healed. Ultimately, as we remember and heal past relational wounds, the journey back to the self (Aries) happens. As we further integrate the Aries/Libra axis, self love becomes the foundation of our ability to have healthy relations. A natural quandary of the Aries /Libra polarity that beckons us to further integration is, how to have the freedom to be ourselves and still be in relationship. It takes a lifetime, even many lifetimes, to learn how to be fully yourself with another person, to be able to be open and not lose your center but also simultaneously not to be too self focused so that others can’t get in. To accomplish this is a balancing and synthesis of the Aries polarity of (Self-Identity-Independence), the inner side of Venus/Taurus (self-reliance), and Venus/ Libra (reaching beyond the boundary of the self). A further intention of Venus/Libra is to form relationships of equals, being neither greater/lesser, dominant/submissive, dependent/independent, or various other roles and polarities we can get involved in.

“Not every relationship between two persons is an “I-Thou”, nor is every relationship with an animal or thing “I-It”. The difference, rather, is in the relationship itself. I-Thou is a relationship of openness, directness, mutuality, and presence. [ie..a relationship of equals] . I-It, in contrast, is the typical subject-object relationship in which one knows and uses other people and things without allowing them to exist for oneself in their uniqueness…” Martin Buber - Philosopher 1947

We can start to imagine now all the ways relationships that are ‘I-it’ based can go wrong. Two people coming together with ‘I-it’ scripts will never see each other outside of the mental construct they believe, think or want the other to be. We have to consider that, Eros aside, Venus/Libra, is an air sign, and falling in love or lust with what one thinks the other is and not a whole person, is a self-deceptive way to avoid growing beyond oneself and entering into real relationships! The ‘I-it’ relationship is in fact a relationship with oneself; it is not a dialogue, but a monologue. In this kind of relationship one person is more a satellite to the other than an equal partner. But it can also be subtler than that. Even the person who appears to be the caring, supportive one can have an ‘I-it’ script going on. The other is an it to be fixed…to fulfill an unconscious need to be needed, or further, to use the other and fixing his or her problems as a way to avoid ones own problems. This is a learned pattern of relating commonly called co-dependency. In modern psychology it is understood that co-dependency springs from the conditions and roles one played in one’s family. It is often our childhood (Libra natural square to Cancer) and then social conditioning (Libra natural square to Capricorn) that we are not to be accepted as we are, but need to change or conform to some other standard or another’s needs to gain acceptance or love. When we are raised this way ourselves, the model is then in place in our subconscious that this is the only way to have a relationship.

Venus as ruler of Libra has Neptune as the higher octave— conditional love that has the potential to evolve to unconditional love. Further, Neptune’s relationship to Venus would ultimately lead one to the awareness that the primary relationship is that with the Divine, which is the true source of unconditional love. Without this connection, we find ourselves “looking for love in all the wrong places.” Our experiences with our first care-givers (parents/family) form the blueprint about love that colors our mode of relating; think of the natural square to Cancer (Mother) and Capricorn (Father). Below is a list of unspoken ‘family rules’ that shape the way that relationships are expected to happen within the family, which have been identified as childhood causes of adult co-dependent behavior. In parenthesis I added some Venus/Libra correlations.

• It’s not okay to talk about problems (Pleasing aspect of Venus)• Feelings should not be expressed openly; keep feelings to yourself (Socially adaptive mask/denial)• Communication is best if indirect; one person acts as messenger between two others; known in therapy as triangulation (non-direct distorted form of being heard or hearing)• Make us proud beyond realistic expectations (conforming to expectations)• Don’t be selfish (Denial of Aries polarity)• Don’t rock the boat. (Further denial of Aries polarity)• Above all be NICE!!! (Libra desire for peace and harmony)http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm

(End quote)

Ok so there’s some food for thought…can you relate??? Hahaha what do you think?

A well developed Libran would naturally see the "different perspectives" of others - the ability to see many different points of view. There would be a natural acceptance and enjoyment of diversity, that would engender a feeling of goodwill among the group.

In this way, the Libran archetype is in line with the Natural Law of "sharing, giving and inclusion" since it does not seek to dominate with it's own ideas, but is willing to really listen, and to accept the variety and diversity of ideas...so that everyone gets a chance to express themselves - and each individual's particular point of view is respected.

This describes the mediator, a definite quality of a balanced Libra, who is not acting from codependence but from the ability to perceive others needs just as Deva mentioned.

Ok… so lets start to look at Libra as it relates to the individual expression and how it gets complicated or distorted based on personal karmas and/or collective experience.

My personal observations show me that two main themes arise, Co-dependency and Denial.

Lets start with co-dependency ………….

• It’s not okay to talk about problems (Pleasing aspect of Venus)• Feelings should not be expressed openly; keep feelings to yourself (Socially adaptive mask/denial)• Communication is best if indirect; one person acts as messenger between two others; known in therapy as triangulation (non-direct distorted form of being heard or hearing)• Make us proud beyond realistic expectations (conforming to expectations)• Don’t be selfish (Denial of Aries polarity)• Don’t rock the boat. (Further denial of Aries polarity)• Above all be NICE!!! (Libra desire for peace and harmony)http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm

Ok so there’s some food for thought…can you relate??? Hahaha what do you think?

Thanks Patricia for sharing so much information, especially from your book.

I am grateful to learn more and more about Libra. Pluto recently crossed over my descendant into my 7th house (not too fun really) and my progressed Sun is now in Libra. I also have Mars in Libra natally and can attest to the projection and adaptability to please, mostly when I was younger. Now I'm quite skilled at meditating and creating balance with varying groups or one-on-one settings when I truly honor my needs and others.

It seems to me that in an empowered expression of this archetype the person would be able to withhold giving in situations that only promote a dependency upon him or herself, and also truly know what another person needs, not what he or she thinks the other person needs (listening to the reality of others as it exists for them).

This is such a powerful statement and a real revelation for anyone who is really healing from codependency issues!

All of this makes me think of the collective. Because how many people are codependent! Loads. It's like an epidemic in our culture. Also the Neptune in Libra generation comes to mind. This is time the term codependency came to be and all the self-help books began to come out or was that the next generation?

• Don’t be selfish (Denial of Aries polarity)• Don’t rock the boat. (Further denial of Aries polarity)• Above all be NICE!!! (Libra desire for peace and harmony)Ok so there’s some food for thought…can you relate??? Hahaha what do you think?

Hi Patricia,

The above points stood out because they remind me of someone I know who, in relating to others, is "completely selfish - always rocks the boat - and is not always nice." She does not display the co-dependent qualities you mentioned, but seems to have gone completely in the opposite direction! What do you make of this? What childhood behaviours would have caused her to become so selfish?

Here is a quote from that website you posted:

"As adults, codependent people have a greater tendency to get involved in relationships with people who are perhaps unreliable, emotionally unavailable, or needy. And the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment.

Even when a codependent person encounters someone with healthy boundaries, the codependent person still operates in their own system; they’re not likely to get too involved with people who have healthy boundaries. This of course creates problems that continue to recycle; if codependent people can’t get involved with people who have healthy behaviors and coping skills, then the problems continue into each new relationship."

I found it interesting that the codependent person keeps setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment through involvement with the wrong types of people. It would be important to see through this pattern, in order to change it.

The control freak behaviour gives a false sense of 'relationship.' In their giving too much to the needy person, they are really seeking control - the classic unbalanced and unequal relationship.

"All of this makes me think of the collective. Because how many people are codependent! Loads. It's like an epidemic in our culture. Also the Neptune in Libra generation comes to mind. This is time the term codependency came to be and all the self-help books began to come out or was that the next generation?"

As I understand it, the term 'co-dependant' became popularized in the mid to late 80's. Not that people weren't co-dependant before that!! But you can say it emerged into the collective conciouss as something taht was now identified and needed tobe worked on. The astrological marker that I see at that time is actaully Pluto finishing up it's transit thru Libra and enetering Scorpio. Those archtypes alone point to the evolutionary intention to 'transform ways of relating' This also applies to the 7th house Pluto transit that you are having. So you can be enetering a period where unhealthy relationship patterns will become clearer to you with the intention of creating new ways of being in relationship.

JWG also says about this transit that old partners (and past karmic mates) can also re-eneter your life during this time.. of course the larger intention is not to replay the old patterns but to intitiate a new cycle (with new repsonses) to old relationship issues. It's good to notice how the archtypes affect us in our perosnal lives, to see the patterns etc.. i thinkit makes us all potentially better counselers :-)

Congrats on 'getting a handle' on some of your early life 'projection and adpatability' issues!!

"The above points stood out because they remind me of someone I know who, in relating to others, is "completely selfish - always rocks the boat - and is not always nice." She does not display the co-dependent qualities you mentioned, but seems to have gone completely in the opposite direction! What do you make of this? What childhood behaviours would have caused her to become so selfish?"

My first thought is what is her chart? Does she have an emphasis on Libra or Aries..1st/7th house. She sounds more Arian (the polarity of Libra). That kind of 'selfishness' can have lots of diffrent roots ( karmic and childhood) It may be a survival mechanism...'If I don't fight for myself noone will" The aries archtype often has -learning thru confrontation- as part of its lessons. People that form a complusive sort of selfishness often fear at the core (again from a variety of circumstances) that they will never be able to get what they want. One main diffrence between this sort of imprint and the Libran co-dependant type is, the 'selfish' one often knows what they want but either feels they can get it easily (frustration)and/or without a fight or a fuss...while the Libran type often dosn't have a clue about what they want and what thier needs REALLY are. Hence why this issue is distorted for them in relationship. Until that basic understnding occurs for the individual, they will keep creating and being drawn to those unhealthy relationships.