MTM by Oscar Wegner-1HBH

The part of the video that makes sense is when he says this technique is useful when the ball is on top of you and you need more space.

On many/most balls this won't be necessary is you've prepared early. But we all know Oscar doesn't believe in early preparation.

He likes to run his mouth about how he taught Guga the one-handed backhand. From what I've seen from other sources, Larry Passos was Guga's personal coach, who taught him the one hander. Oscar probably taught clinics where Guga was there. As usual, Oscar is exaggerating his connection to a real player, and taking credit for someone else's hard work.

yes, well said.
Not sure were the detractors come up with things like "falling" back and "sudden"
shoulder movement. I went back and watched the whole vid again and didn't see
those words or even type comments from Oscar.
Imo this vid is showing how to do on the Bh, what we do on the Fh, where we
put more wt on the rt foot, then lift and push back to balance between the feet.
It facilitates controllable power, recovery and balance for those who can get the
concept.

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Biomechanically speaking, I believe this is a loading mechanism that everyone probably exploits instinctively, and Oscar simply was observant enough to notice this happening. The pushing up or back off the front foot that precedes or coincides with the forward swing will activate the stretch-contraction reflex in the shoulder, providing explosive power for the forward swing. This won't happen if there is no braking effect and the body just keeps moving forward through the stroke. I myself hit with a two-hander, but I realized I was doing something similar for the slice backhand and sometimes for volleys. J-Mac's volleys where he pushes up at contact (in a not so text-book way) may be exploiting a similar mechanism... isn't tennis wonderful!

no bhupaes, biomechanically Oscars approach is so fundamentally off the mark it'll waste too much useless typing to address thoroughly.

However in short, the push off from the front leg is not a requirement for ssc of the shoulder. ssc of shoulder can be activated by a number of ways even with the front leg fully extended and supporting the whole body weight. the main problem with not having the weight on the front foot is there is no stopping the torso rotation near the contact point causing the opening up the shoulder and over rotating.

I have no motive to discredit Oscar, really I don't care, but the way mtmers are willing to have their own eyes and minds prejudiced by something other than quality tennis instruction is pretty disappointing to say the least.

I have a couple backhands in this vid (also posted elsewhere, I apologize).
I remember I was focusing on lifting upward/ (as opposed to pulling back) as I was swinging forward. This is the result.http://youtu.be/QzqP71zyvWU

no bhupaes, biomechanically Oscars approach is so fundamentally off the mark it'll waste too much useless typing to address thoroughly.

However in short, the push off from the front leg is not a requirement for ssc of the shoulder. ssc of shoulder can be activated by a number of ways even with the front leg fully extended and supporting the whole body weight. the main problem with not having the weight on the front foot is there is no stopping the torso rotation near the contact point causing the opening up the shoulder and over rotating.

I have no motive to discredit Oscar, really I don't care, but the way mtmers are willing to have their own eyes and minds prejudiced by something other than quality tennis instruction is pretty disappointing to say the least.

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Very sad. They come up with weird explanations trying to see whether even a thousandth of what he said can be remotely correct. They make up explanations on his behalf because they just cannot face up to the facts.

I have a couple backhands in this vid (also posted elsewhere, I apologize).
I remember I was focusing on lifting upward/ (as opposed to pulling back) as I was swinging forward. This is the result.http://youtu.be/QzqP71zyvWU

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I understand that you have to moderate a bit against the wall, but it looks to me as if you have more natural snap in your topspin backhand than your forehand.

So there is one decent looking backhand with some pop in it for a proponent of MTM, who will step up for traditional instruction and show the products of that?

no bhupaes, biomechanically Oscars approach is so fundamentally off the mark it'll waste too much useless typing to address thoroughly.

However in short, the push off from the front leg is not a requirement for ssc of the shoulder. ssc of shoulder can be activated by a number of ways even with the front leg fully extended and supporting the whole body weight. the main problem with not having the weight on the front foot is there is no stopping the torso rotation near the contact point causing the opening up the shoulder and over rotating.

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The push off the front foot definitely enhances the explosive effect - and I mean the push off in the way Guga and Gasquet do it. I agree that hip and upper body rotation are the primary movements in the 1HBH. IMO, the braking effect due to the "push back" enhances the explosiveness. It doesn't mean that the player will actually move backwards, especially if the player has to run forwards to execute the backhand. Of course, if one is illustrating the mechanism by hitting hand fed balls from a fixed spot, there may be a noticeable tendency to move back.

I have no motive to discredit Oscar, really I don't care, but the way mtmers are willing to have their own eyes and minds prejudiced by something other than quality tennis instruction is pretty disappointing to say the least.

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Sure, you are entitled to your views, and as gentlemen, we can agree to disagree. Personally, I have benefited a lot from Oscar's teachings. I find his insights absolutely fascinating, since it opens up a way of looking at the game that is unique and rewarding.

So there is one decent looking backhand with some pop in it for a proponent of MTM, who will step up for traditional instruction and show the products of that?

Come on people, don't be scared.

Show me the money!

J

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Jo11y, with all due respect, i'm not a proponent of mtm i believe that it is an occasionally valuable resource for specfic groups of tennis players and only in very specific cases. I learned my bh with more traditional concepts.

I understand that you have to moderate a bit against the wall, but it looks to me as if you have more natural snap in your topspin backhand than your forehand.

So there is one decent looking backhand with some pop in it for a proponent of MTM, who will step up for traditional instruction and show the products of that?

Come on people, don't be scared.

Show me the money!

J

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I'm laughing my ass off watching Oscar demonstrate. As a 1.0 I don't feel I'm qualified to comment but from my lowly position, I find his strokes hilarious. Of course, much worthier tennis players will come along to comment. So, as a right hander, the backhand is when you hit the ball on your left side? After 30 years I still get the two strokes confused.

Jo11y, with all due respect, i'm not a proponent of mtm i believe that it is an occasionally valuable resource for specfic groups of tennis players and only in very specific cases. I learned my bh with more traditional concepts.

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Ok, so you are likely in the same boat as I.

I have run into a handful of people who could seriously benefit from listening to what Wegner preaches, but for the most part think it would be counter productive to most who are looking to progress to something more than intermediate recreational level.

I have run into a handful of people who could seriously benefit from listening to what Wegner preaches, but for the most part think it would be counter productive to most who are looking to progress to something more than intermediate recreational level.

J

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That may be true for some of his other tips, but this backhand video is wrong for every level.

Biomechanically speaking, I believe this is a loading mechanism that everyone probably exploits instinctively, and Oscar simply was observant enough to notice this happening. The pushing up or back off the front foot that precedes or coincides with the forward swing will activate the stretch-contraction reflex in the shoulder, providing explosive power for the forward swing.

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While we understand what you are saying here, this part is not technically correct.
No ssc action would be contributing to power while pulling back on a 1hbh. ssc is triggered by a stretch in one opposite direction and then a release in the opposite direction.

While we understand what you are saying here, this part is not technically correct.
No ssc action would be contributing to power while pulling back on a 1hbh. ssc is triggered by a stretch in one opposite direction and then a release in the opposite direction.

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You are right about that - I used the incorrect technical term to describe what's going on (and was waiting for someone to point it out after posting, ha ha). I understand now (after some shadow 1hbh swings) the feeling of how this push contributes to power - mainly momentum transfer that enhances the contraction part, I am guessing.

After you have this movement well grooved in, get someone to toss gentle balls to your backhand. Lift the ball well over the net and finish all the way, perhaps exaggerating the lift, and getting your balance by pulling away from the ball and up. Especially if you are too close to the ball, pulling back will give you plenty of room to swing, with your arm extending towards the target and then across towards the right.

This type movement combination has been shunned by conventional tennis teaching, that tells you to step forward into the hit and stay down. This, unfortunately, destroys the natural acceleration of the arm. Try it both ways, and you will notice the difference.

I have a feeling this is again one of those legacy items from the transition period. In the wood era, it was necessary to stay down and step into the ball to get any meaningful power. Today, rackets are more powerful, and also, as Federer discovered against Nadal, high-bouncing slow balls are common to the backhand even on grass and hard courts. So, while there is a classic video of Federer with his back foot almost kneeling on the ground, he also hits backhands in a more upright position. So it is no longer necessary to adhere to the stay down advice very strictly. He could have just said that, instead of saying the other things like going backward. He confuses the finish which will result in the body rising with a backward movement of the body during the hit, similar to the confusion on the forehand about pulling away before impact instead of the reality of finishing the swing after hitting solidly through the ball.

So the idea is to hit a tennis ball forward faster/harder/heavier/whatever by moving backwards? I don't claim to be able to hit a ball with anything to be confused with competency... but... huh? Am I missing something?

i'm taking my technically perfect 2hbh and hiding under the bed until this blows over.

He confuses the finish which will result in the body rising with a backward movement of the body during the hit, similar to the confusion on the forehand about pulling away before impact instead of the reality of finishing the swing after hitting solidly through the ball.

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He's not the one confused on this.
At least you see the result of the pull up and back.

Sorry, I must be missing something here, being new and all -- why are TT admins deleting posts/threads related to MTM/Wegner? Is it purely based on marketing, the fact that it's a form of "product review" on a forum?

Sorry, I must be missing something here, being new and all -- why are TT admins deleting posts/threads related to MTM/Wegner? Is it purely based on marketing, the fact that it's a form of "product review" on a forum?

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most of it is probably based on the fact that the arguments tend to become heated and personal. what sureshs likes to call fun, i guess

why mtm, why wegner? the controversy about Oscar Wegner and his teaching goes on for a long time now, way before i joined tt
some of what he teaches is different from mainstream, the video about the
1HBH being proof of that i would say
also, he seems to be quite confident about what he contributed to modern tennis teaching, being a pioneer of teaching how the pros play,etc.
that doesn´t sit well with some posters

Sorry, I must be missing something here, being new and all -- why are TT admins deleting posts/threads related to MTM/Wegner? Is it purely based on marketing, the fact that it's a form of "product review" on a forum?

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I don't know. I think it has more to do with the tone or nature of some of the threads or posts.

why mtm, why wegner? the controversy about Oscar Wegner and his teaching goes on for a long time now, way before i joined tt
some of what he teaches is different from mainstream, the video about the
1HBH being proof of that i would say
also, he seems to be quite confident about what he contributed to modern tennis teaching, being a pioneer of teaching how the pros play,etc.
that doesn´t sit well with some posters

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Yes, it does go back a ways. I think some of it lingers mostly from 2 former posters.
One was a Braden know all, who tried to crush anyone who disagreed, and
the other would write long pages on details of Oscar's exploits. It may go back
even further, but those guys seemed to draw a big line in the sand on the topics.
I came along as those two battled and then went away. I just like to see MTM
technique represented as one of the approaches to learning and mastering the
game. Some will really have exciting growth and improvement with it. Some
never get the simple, but subtle nuances of it and that is fine, but not a good
reason to try and block others who may really benefit.

There are many like Ash, who do get most of what MTM shares, but don't see
it as the best way to get the info across. I respect that. I don't get all that
MTM states either, but have learned thru experience that often I will get it later,
in the right setting. I initially thought the idea of "waiting" was as silly as
most of the anti Oscar crowd here, but reserved my final judgement due to the
quality of the other things expressed. Then one Sat. morning I found myself in
a doubles match against 2 really outstanding servers that were killing us with
their pace. After a couple of desperate games facing their pace, the silly idea
of waiting came to mind. What a great time to try it with nothing to lose, right?
Getting smoked anyway, lol.

Short story is I tried to wait by believing there was more time and that the pace
was causing me to OVER react. I relaxed and quit rushing, but still got after
the ball. It worked for me so I shared it with my partner, who had noticed how
my rtns had picked up. He did better as well and we found a way to come back
and win that match due to this silly tip that I had thought was ridiculous.
So my intention is that these tips should be available here on this tips forum
for anyone that might be helped. They are the best imo, but clearly not for
everyone.

5263, sounds more like a story of a spiritual leader to me than a teacher who really knows his skill. too much faith is required for promise of something so grand, play like pros. and when so many reasonably sounding people point out a detrimental flaw in the method as exhibited in this thread, there appears no attempt to make any sense and question the validity of his claim. instead you guys are busy defending Oscar. it's this kinda culture that is hurting mtm not a few people trying to take down mtm. if Oscar comes out and explain his stuff with an open mind that what he is saying could be wrong based on clear reasoning, he will earn my respect but as of now mtm by Oscar is not a serious method to master tennis skill, esp 1hbh.

Sure, you are entitled to your views, and as gentlemen, we can agree to disagree. Personally, I have benefited a lot from Oscar's teachings. I find his insights absolutely fascinating, since it opens up a way of looking at the game that is unique and rewarding.

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when I first encountered Oscar and his work I was impressed by unconventional but many insightful points he makes. he is unusual and he has very sharp eyes and minds. but he has flaws in reasoning ability and some kind of aggrandized self image that defies questioning. I'm sure there can be many capable instructors like you who got inspiration from him but when a teacher loses the ability to examine his beliefs and correct himself, the students should know what to take and what not to take because that teacher is done for good. and being defensive and assuming all the critiques are the enemies will hasten that demise. so it's up to you guys.

5263, sounds more like a story of a spiritual leader to me than a teacher who really knows his skill. too much faith is required for promise of something so grand, play like pros. and when so many reasonably sounding people point out a detrimental flaw in the method as exhibited in this thread, there appears no attempt to make any sense and question the validity of his claim. instead you guys are busy defending Oscar. it's this kinda culture that is hurting mtm not a few people trying to take down mtm. if Oscar comes out and explain his stuff with an open mind that what he is saying could be wrong based on clear reasoning, he will earn my respect but as of now mtm by Oscar is not a serious method to master tennis skill, esp 1hbh.

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Those religious references are out of line and uncalled for...especially from you,
the pot calling the kettle, lol. Your posts are the ones that seem more
spiritual in nature and all these reasonable folks are trying to tell you that your
ideas about using the wrist are way off. You don't listen, because of your positive
experience though. I don't listen to these folks either because I have experienced
the benefits of the modern lessons. Those folks don't sound so reasonable when you
know different with them constantly contradicting themselves and each other,
showing a limited understanding on the topics. I have been where they are and
moved past that. Why would I go back from the best tennis I've experienced?

I'm not saying anything about faith anyway...We are talking about having an open
mind. Sort of a sad statement about your religion if tennis tips and a open mind
make you think of your faith imo.

Hopefully your are smart enough to realize about the haters, that it is a catch 22.
If they knew it and understood it, they say there is nothing new, but...
If it's new & different where they don't understand it, they reject it like the plague.
Can't help those with that type mindset can you?

5263, you know nobody that plays E fh that can generate a lot of pace and spin, do you? but in pro there are. quite a number of them. they are how I model my fh. now if you say there is not much difference b/w these modern E and your modern SW fh, or cannot see the difference, you won't be able to understand.

5263, you know nobody that plays E fh that can generate a lot of pace and spin, do you? but in pro there are. quite a number of them. they are how I model my fh. now if you say there is not much difference b/w these modern E and your modern SW fh, or cannot see the difference, you won't be able to understand.

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you are right, I have no idea what you are talking about.
I can only guess that you are laboring under more misinformation,
that the modern Fh has a certain grip and does not include Eastern??:???:
This is a good example of why folks should post on the subjects they know and
not state the case for others.

when I first encountered Oscar and his work I was impressed by unconventional but many insightful points he makes. he is unusual and he has very sharp eyes and minds. but he has flaws in reasoning ability and some kind of aggrandized self image that defies questioning. I'm sure there can be many capable instructors like you who got inspiration from him but when a teacher loses the ability to examine his beliefs and correct himself, the students should know what to take and what not to take because that teacher is done for good. and being defensive and assuming all the critiques are the enemies will hasten that demise. so it's up to you guys.

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Hey boramiNYC, I am not an instructor! I'm just another Silicon Valley drone, trying to find on the tennis court the part that seems to be missing from the rest of my life! I prefer to stay in the technical realm, and apply whatever I learn to my game, be it from Oscar or someone else.

I initially thought the idea of "waiting" was as silly as
most of the anti Oscar crowd here, but reserved my final judgement due to the
quality of the other things expressed. Then one Sat. morning I found myself in
a doubles match against 2 really outstanding servers that were killing us with
their pace. After a couple of desperate games facing their pace, the silly idea
of waiting came to mind. What a great time to try it with nothing to lose, right?
Getting smoked anyway, lol.

Short story is I tried to wait by believing there was more time and that the pace
was causing me to OVER react. I relaxed and quit rushing, but still got after
the ball. It worked for me so I shared it with my partner, who had noticed how
my rtns had picked up. He did better as well and we found a way to come back
and win that match due to this silly tip that I had thought was ridiculous.
So my intention is that these tips should be available here on this tips forum
for anyone that might be helped. They are the best imo, but clearly not for
everyone.

Click to expand...

one of these days i´ll start a thread on ´waiting´ i´ll make sure not to mention certain keywords like mtm so we can discuss it more calmly
watching some of the best players in the world in my agegroup did it for me, seeing how unrushed they play. i´ve since been able to incorporate some of this in my own game, with extraordinary results against players half my age. a few months ago i felt overwhelmed with their pace, lately i seem to thrive on it.
i have a feeling that modern footwork and open stances that i´ve adopted play a part, but don´t have all the answers yet.

one of these days i´ll start a thread on ´waiting´ i´ll make sure not to mention certain keywords like mtm so we can discuss it more calmly
watching some of the best players in the world in my agegroup did it for me, seeing how unrushed they play. i´ve since been able to incorporate some of this in my own game, with extraordinary results against players half my age. a few months ago i felt overwhelmed with their pace, lately i seem to thrive on it.
i have a feeling that modern footwork and open stances that i´ve adopted play a part, but don´t have all the answers yet.

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That sounds very interesting and I look forward to it. I'd like to learn more and
here of your experiences on this. Some players seem to have so much more time
to play the ball.

Hey boramiNYC, I am not an instructor! I'm just another Silicon Valley drone, trying to find on the tennis court the part that seems to be missing from the rest of my life! I prefer to stay in the technical realm, and apply whatever I learn to my game, be it from Oscar or someone else.

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I could have sworn I read you teaching in some previous thread but mistaken. you seem to have unusually well organized thought process on techniques to be just doing it for fun. I too am a student of the game and bettering myself is one of the things I enjoy most. I also try to have an open mind and I don't care where an idea comes from. but not rejecting unfounded idea is not same as having an open mind.