NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter.

The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.

"There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."

Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Michigan.

Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant.

Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail.

"What I expect to hear [from the court] is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."

State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case.

"The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said.

Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said.
'This is so politically incorrect'

Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion.

"Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."

Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt.

"Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say."

"The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility."

Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child.

"If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative."

The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter.

"None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/LAW/03/08/fatherhood.suit.ap/story.vert.dubay.ap.jpg
Matt Dubay contends his ex-girlfriend assured him she was unable to get pregnant.

Donger

03-09-2006, 08:31 AM

Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy

Errr, they already do.

Mile High Mania

03-09-2006, 08:34 AM

This is the dumbest thing ever...

"Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant."

Give it up jackass, your decision was made when you failed to use protection... it's not your daughter's fault that you're a dumbass.

Demonpenz

03-09-2006, 08:56 AM

jeez your already a sissy computer programmer be a man for once

Mile High Mania

03-09-2006, 09:01 AM

One day, I hope this kid reads this article... finds this dude and kicks his ass.

ChiefsfaninPA

03-09-2006, 09:05 AM

This is funny, my bro in law is in the same predicament. He is a network admin and he got a girl pregnant like two years ago after she told him that she couldn't get knocked up. Now his dumb arse is paying 5 bills a month for support and he is pissed. I laugh everytime he starts saying how unfair it is. All he had to do was wrap up but noooooo he took some broads word about being able to get pregnant. That is what he deserves.

Brock

03-09-2006, 09:06 AM

He could have at least pulled out.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 09:22 AM

I'm not seeing why the father doesn't have rights to his half of the DNA. If he wants back his half of the kid, why shouldnt' that happen? Women can abort a child a man wants, why not the other way?

Here's my proposal: The two parents should work it out as soon as the pregnancy is discovered. If they both want an abortion (despite my strong beliefs against it) then so be it. If they both want to have it, so be it. If one wants it and the other doesn't, the other ought to be able to forgo any legal rights to the child and be able to walk away freely. In my system it is kidnapping for a pregnant women to not tell the father.

S**t like that might make people think twice before f**king and maybe, just maybe, we'd have fewer dumbasses reproducing.

Bowser

03-09-2006, 09:29 AM

You say you're a guy and don't want an unplanned pregnancy with your current bang(s)? I give you three options....

1) Abstain. Yeah, right...

2) Put the suit on your spelunker. Or...

3) Aim for the chin.

It's not rocket science if you don't want a kid. I have a friend who is banging some bartender chick, who keeps assuring him that her tubes are tied and she can't get knocked up. To his credit, he refuses to sleep with her without a condom. She doesn't much care for it, but he couldn't care less.

jspchief

03-09-2006, 09:37 AM

I'm not seeing why the father doesn't have rights to his half of the DNA. If he wants back his half of the kid, why shouldnt' that happen? Women can abort a child a man wants, why not the other way?

Here's my proposal: The two parents should work it out as soon as the pregnancy is discovered. If they both want an abortion (despite my strong beliefs against it) then so be it. If they both want to have it, so be it. If one wants it and the other doesn't, the other ought to be able to forgo any legal rights to the child and be able to walk away freely. In my system it is kidnapping for a pregnant women to not tell the father.

S**t like that might make people think twice before f**king and maybe, just maybe, we'd have fewer dumbasses reproducing.I agree.

JBucc

03-09-2006, 09:54 AM

I'm not seeing why the father doesn't have rights to his half of the DNA. If he wants back his half of the kid, why shouldnt' that happen? Women can abort a child a man wants, why not the other way?

Here's my proposal: The two parents should work it out as soon as the pregnancy is discovered. If they both want an abortion (despite my strong beliefs against it) then so be it. If they both want to have it, so be it. If one wants it and the other doesn't, the other ought to be able to forgo any legal rights to the child and be able to walk away freely. In my system it is kidnapping for a pregnant women to not tell the father.

S**t like that might make people think twice before f**king and maybe, just maybe, we'd have fewer dumbasses reproducing.Sounds good

Katipan

03-09-2006, 09:57 AM

bahahahahahaahahahahahahah

ok we'll take that proposal as soon as you men band together and get all the dead beat dads to own up to their responsibilities.

Pitt Gorilla

03-09-2006, 10:12 AM

This provides an interesting side to the abortion argument. I think a guy should always own up to his responsibilities when a child is involved (it's called being a man). On the other hand, the girl has an "out" if she wants it and the guy seemingly doesn't. Interesting.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:13 AM

The guy doesn't have to be pregnant.

The guy's "out" is contraceptives or abstinance.

And be happy for it.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:15 AM

When a woman gets pregnant [either unplanned or otherwise] they have the right to abort, give away, or have the child.

When the man does not want the baby,and the woman does, he has no choice but to go along with what the woman wants. If he does want the baby, and the woman does not, he still has to go along with what the woman wants.

In any pregnancy, from unprotected sex or just an unplanned pregnancy, there are two parties involved in conception. Two guilty parties. Women [I am talking in broad, general terms]always act like the man is the bastard for making them pregnant, and usually want to disavow any responsibility in reaching that state themselves.

I just think that men should have an equal say or right, since they were %50 of the cause.

Deadbeat dads suck, but men being powerless also sucks.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:16 AM

In any pregnancy, from unprotected sex or just an unplanned pregnancy, there are two parties involved in conception. Two guilty parties. Women [I am talking in broad, general terms]always act like the man is the bastard for making them pregnant, and usually want to disavow any responsibility in reaching that state themselves.

stupid statement.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:18 AM

stupid statement.
Coming from a woman, I would expect no less. You may be different, but I doubt it.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:19 AM

I don't believe you've ever met a woman.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:22 AM

stupid statement.

So, if you were dating a guy, became pregnant unexpectedly and he wanted you to have an abortion because he did not want to be a father, you would say "Sure honey", or would you say "Thanks for nothing, I'll raise this baby myself, with the help of your child support check every month."

Or, if he wanted the child and you did not, you would go through with the pregnancy for his sake?

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:22 AM

I don't believe you've ever met a woman.

Very witty.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:24 AM

I'm saying the last guy I slept with knew from day 1 where I stood on getting pregnant, on abortion, on responsibility, and on birth control. And I'm pretty sure he know full well what I'd expect from him now, 2 years from now, or 10 years from now.

But lets say I didn't want a baby. Would never happen. I love babies. But if I was pregnant, didn't want to raise it, and the man did?...

Sure.

But I get pregnant and you think a man should have the ability to force my body through an abortion?

You're sick.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:28 AM

But I get pregnant and you think a man should have the ability to force my body through an abortion?

You're sick.

Absolutely not. If you think that is what I thought, then I am sorry. What I do think in that situation, is the man should have the right to decline financial and emotional support.

As long as the man did not agree to the pregnancy prior to conception, he should have the same rights or options as the woman.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:30 AM

Why? It's not equal work or labor.

jspchief

03-09-2006, 10:33 AM

The guy doesn't have to be pregnant.

The guy's "out" is contraceptives or abstinance.

And be happy for it.The girl's out is to close her f*cking legs too.

You're missing the point. It takes two to make a baby. One of those two has all the say in what to do with the baby they make, the other just opens his wallet.

Personally, I agree with Simplex's take. If one person doesn't want the baby, then that person shouldn't be financially responsible. Until they ban adoption and abortion, the current rules are f*cked up.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:36 AM

Oh gosh. How could I miss that it takes 2 to make a baby?

As soon as you guys figure out how to stop people from lying or changing their minds, you can start worrying about legal rights.

jspchief

03-09-2006, 10:37 AM

Oh gosh. How could I miss that it takes 2 to make a baby?

As soon as you guys figure out how to stop people from lying or changing their minds, you can start worrying about legal rights.Yea, like to stop a woman from telling a man she's infertile or on birth control, when she really isn't?

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:38 AM

Yes! Like that.

Inspector

03-09-2006, 10:39 AM

Don't know how it is nowadays, but in the past the person who was wrong was easy to determine.

They had penises.

Maybe it's different now.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:42 AM

Why? It's not equal work or labor.

I can say from experience that pregnancy, child birth, and raising a child, is equal work and equal labor for both the man and the woman. For a good man, anyway.

Because I did not suffer from carrying the baby, doesn't mean that I didn't suffer. I just love getting up at 3AM, just to go get some food that she craved, just to have her change her mind by the time I got back. Or, clean up morning sickness, etc.

Just because I did not suffer physical pain during birth, does not mean I did not suffer. The emotional pain of watching someone you love deeply, in extreme physical pain, and not being able to do anything to ease the suffering, should not be taken lightly. Not to mention broken bones in my hand.

Saying that a man should not have the right to decline fatherhood, like a woman can decline motherhood, based on the fact that the pregnancy is carried out by the woman, is lame.

I hope you have a great day, Katipan.
:toast:

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:43 AM

Thanks. But all of that was nothing compared to what her body went through.

I'm talking legal rights. You should have none over her.

ASS11

03-09-2006, 10:43 AM

Just kick the bitch in the stomach.

jspchief

03-09-2006, 10:44 AM

I'm talking legal rights. You should have none over her. I agree.

She should also have none over my wallet.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:45 AM

Just kick the bitch in the stomach.

I would say how about I kick you, but from what I have heard, you would like it. Maybe I should threaten to kick Carrie Underwood instead.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:46 AM

I agree.

She should also have none over my wallet.

And in aperfect world that would be great.

But unfortunately the largest group of people in our country living in poverty is our children.

So. Sucks for you.

SLAG

03-09-2006, 10:46 AM

I agree.

She should also have none over my wallet.

:clap::clap:

Exellent Post

Iowanian

03-09-2006, 10:46 AM

When you father a child, whether it be intended or not...its your responsibilty to take care of that kid. You sign that contract when Capt purplehead touches meat curtains. Its not the childs fault that a man chooses to perform the act. A real man, accepts that responsibility and provides for that kid the best he can...financially, physically and emotionally.

I don't think a man should ever be able to force a woman to have an abortion. I DO think, that since it IS as much his child as hers...the MAN should have to concent(exceptions for rape et al) before an abortion can take place. Its as much his child as hers....he should have the right to choose life for the kid, and if she doesn't want it....accept physical custody and terminate her rights to see the child.

If more men would take responsibility for their Own baby batter.....and stop having 5-6 kids with as many women.....the world would be a better place.

I also think any woman who has an abortion should also have her tubes tied at the same time.....and any man with kids with 3 women should have a mandatory clip....

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:47 AM

When you father a child, whether it be intended or not...its your responsibilty to take care of that kid. You sign that contract when Capt purplehead touches meat curtains. Its not the childs fault that a man chooses to perform the act. A real man, accepts that responsibility and provides for that kid the best he can...financially, physically and emotionally.

I don't think a man should ever be able to force a woman to have an abortion. I DO think, that since it IS as much his child as hers...the MAN should have to concent(exceptions for rape et al) before an abortion can take place. Its as much his child as hers....he should have the right to choose life for the kid, and if she doesn't want it....accept physical custody and terminate her rights to see the child.

There are reasons why you're my favorite.

Saulbadguy

03-09-2006, 10:48 AM

Anal is the Answer.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:49 AM

And in aperfect world that would be great.

But unfortunately the largest group of people in our country living in poverty is our children.

So. Sucks for you.

Perhaps if woman wouldn't be so brazenly slutty, then most of those impoverished children would not be on this earth suffering.

MAN CAN NOT MAGICALLY MAKE A WOMAN PREGNANT.

Conception is not some Penn and Teller trick where Teller hides inside the woman's uterus and implants a fertilized egg without her noticing.

Once again, like I said earlier, women love to blame men.

Donger

03-09-2006, 10:49 AM

When you father a child, whether it be intended or not...its your responsibilty to take care of that kid. You sign that contract when Capt purplehead touches meat curtains. Its not the childs fault that a man chooses to perform the act. A real man, accepts that responsibility and provides for that kid the best he can...financially, physically and emotionally.

I don't think a man should ever be able to force a woman to have an abortion. I DO think, that since it IS as much his child as hers...the MAN should have to concent(exceptions for rape et al) before an abortion can take place. Its as much his child as hers....he should have the right to choose life for the kid, and if she doesn't want it....accept physical custody and terminate her rights to see the child.

Well said.

SLAG

03-09-2006, 10:49 AM

I would say how about I kick you, but from what I have heard, you would like it. Maybe I should threaten to kick Carrie Underwood instead.

That bitch already looks like she was kicked in the mouth

Brock

03-09-2006, 10:50 AM

Anal is the Answer.

That, or just give them the facial treatment.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:50 AM

Perhaps if woman wouldn't be so brazenly slutty, then most of those impoverished children would not be on this earth suffering.

MAN CAN NOT MAGICALLY MAKE A WOMAN PREGNANT.

Conception is not some Penn and Teller trick where Teller hides inside the woman's uterus and implants a fertilized egg without her noticing.

Once again, like I said earlier, women love to blame men.

You believe most of those poor kids are poor because women are brazen sluts?

Holy. ****ing. Shit.

Do you notice you're the only person blaming anyone?

jspchief

03-09-2006, 10:51 AM

And in aperfect world that would be great.

But unfortunately the largest group of people in our country living in poverty is our children.

So. Sucks for you.WTF does that have to do with anything? If the stupid bitch can't afford to raise a child, she should give it up for adoption or get an abortion. It's simple. If you can affordto have that baby, go ahead and have it. If you can't afford to, don't force someone else to pay for it just because you "really wanna keep it".

And I'm not sure how it sucks for me. I'm married, so my wife and kid already get my money. It's of no consequence to me.

Donger

03-09-2006, 10:51 AM

Perhaps if woman wouldn't be so brazenly slutty, then most of those impoverished children would not be on this earth suffering.

MAN CAN NOT MAGICALLY MAKE A WOMAN PREGNANT.

Conception is not some Penn and Teller trick where Teller hides inside the woman's uterus and implants a fertilized egg without her noticing.

Once again, like I said earlier, women love to blame men.

Give me a break. Unless the guy is raped or forced not to wear a rubber, he's a willing participant who's aware of the potential consequences. Yes, even the possibility of the woman lying about not being able to conceive.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:52 AM

You believe most of those poor kids are poor because women are brazen sluts?

Holy. ****ing. Shit.

Apparently my sarcasm was to slight for you to notice. What I was pointing out was how, it seems, you believe that those kids are suffering because of the men that "made" them.

Saulbadguy

03-09-2006, 10:53 AM

That, or just give them the facial treatment.
Or both.

ASS11

03-09-2006, 10:53 AM

That bitch already looks like she was kicked in the mouth

OH IT'S ON. :cuss:

Katipan

03-09-2006, 10:54 AM

Apparently my sarcasm was to slight for you to notice. What I was pointing out was how, it seems, you believe that those kids are suffering because of the men that "made" them.

Show me where you made that leap in logic.

I said most of the people living in poverty are children.

You pulled your women are sluts hate crap out of your own ass.

Saulbadguy

03-09-2006, 10:54 AM

And in aperfect world that would be great.

But unfortunately the largest group of people in our country living in poverty is our children.

You believe most of those poor kids are poor because women are brazen sluts?

Holy. ****ing. Shit.

Do you notice you're the only person blaming anyone?Poor kids are poor because their mothers decided to bring them into the world when they couldn't afford to support them.

If the parent is so damn poor, they shouldn't be having kids to begin with.

Hell, as far as I'm concerned, a person should have to pass intelligence and financial tests before they are allowed to reproduce.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:55 AM

Give me a break. Unless the guy is raped or forced not to wear a rubber, he's a willing participant who's aware of the potential consequences. Yes, even the possibility of the woman lying about not being able to conceive.

So is the woman. What, because some woman have been treated badly in the past, they get to skate on any responsibility, making it all the man's fault?

Iowanian

03-09-2006, 10:56 AM

Perhaps if woman wouldn't be so brazenly slutty, then most of those impoverished children would not be on this earth suffering.

MAN CAN NOT MAGICALLY MAKE A WOMAN PREGNANT.

Conception is not some Penn and Teller trick where Teller hides inside the woman's uterus and implants a fertilized egg without her noticing.

Once again, like I said earlier, women love to blame men.

Thats pretty pathetic.

You alone are responsible for where you put your noodle...and if it has a hat on, or is covered.

I can see that sometimes Child support payments are rediculously high.....but I think its more rediculous when a man is writing that check, but failing to take the kid on weekends...and go to their tball games. If you're not...You're a failure as a father.

A woman who lays down is AS guilty as the man, but in no way is she MORE guilty. She may lie and say she's on the pill....she may lie or be incorrect about the inability to concieve....but you STILL have the option of a jimmy hat, or spermicide et al.

Give me a break. Unless the guy is raped or forced not to wear a rubber, he's a willing participant who's aware of the potential consequences. Yes, even the possibility of the woman lying about not being able to conceive.Fine, if he's equally culpable, he should have equal say in what is done with the baby. That means that a woman should not be able to abort or put it up for adoption without his consent.

Saulbadguy

03-09-2006, 10:57 AM

Shawe'kla..when it comes to your baby De'onsh'alezajjlklah...Tre'shawn is NOT the father!

http://notthefather.ytmnd.com/

Donger

03-09-2006, 10:57 AM

So is the woman. What, because some woman have been treated badly in the past, they get to skate on any responsibility, making it all the man's fault?

Absolutely it's also the woman's responsibility. I don't see anyone claiming otherwise.

luv

03-09-2006, 10:58 AM

A few arguments...

If he doesn't want the baby, or to have anything to do with it, then he should not be expected to pay for it. Yes, the woman has the choice on what she wants to do, but she should know that raising a child alone will be just that. He may have helped make the baby, but she is the one choosing to keep it.

Some women pawn a child off onto family members all the time in order to go out and do their thing. Their child hardly ever sees them. If she's choosing to raise a child without the financial income then maybe she'll assume the responsibility it requires.

On the flipside, if men are not held accountable for these babies, then they have the opportunity to go around and get dozens of women pregnant because he doesn't have to assume responsibility for any of them. Most single moms get government assistance. That amount would go up if women were not getting the financial help from the fathers.

Donger

03-09-2006, 10:58 AM

Fine, if he's equally culpable, he should have equal say in what is done with the baby. That means that a woman should not be able to abort or put it up for adoption without his consent.

I don't disagree with that at all.

Saulbadguy

03-09-2006, 10:59 AM

I can see that sometimes Child support payments are rediculously high.....but I think its more rediculous when a man is writing that check, but failing to take the kid on weekends...and go to their tball games. If you're not...You're a failure as a father.

What if they write the check but don't have the ability to see the children, or only get to see them every other weekend?

IMO the rulings in this state don't seem to be fair to the father.

ChiefsFanatic

03-09-2006, 10:59 AM

Thats pretty pathetic.

You alone are responsible for where you put your noodle...and if it has a hat on, or is covered.

I can see that sometimes Child support payments are rediculously high.....but I think its more rediculous when a man is writing that check, but failing to take the kid on weekends...and go to their tball games. If you're not...You're a failure as a father.

A woman who lays down is AS guilty as the man, but in no way is she MORE guilty. She may lie and say she's on the pill....she may lie or be incorrect about the inability to concieve....but you STILL have the option of a jimmy hat, or spermicide et al.

I am not suggesting that the woman is MORE guilty, but just as guilty. But, from conception, the woman has %100 of the choices and rights.

Because?

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 11:00 AM

This is a thorny issue, always will be.

Forget the moron that didn't wrap up, or believe some silly s**t about "can't get pregnant". How about this:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20050309.html

I seem to remember disucssing this on here last year. Seems to me that if a woman goes to extraordinary and unexpected measures to get herself pregnant without resorting to a fertility clinic, that the guy should probably be off the hook. But the law says otherwise.

Donger

03-09-2006, 11:01 AM

This is a thorny issue, always will be.

Forget the moron that didn't wrap up, or believe some silly s**t about "can't get pregnant". How about this:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20050309.html

I seem to remember disucssing this on here last year. Seems to me that if a woman goes to extraordinary and unexpected measures to get herself pregnant without resorting to a fertility clinic, that the guy should probably be off the hook. But the law says otherwise.

Oh no. The Return of the Sperm Gurgler.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 11:02 AM

I think men should sleep with women they can trust.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 11:03 AM

I am not suggesting that the woman is MORE guilty, but just as guilty. But, from conception, the woman has %100 of the choices and rights.

Because?

Because there's one baby, and you can't split it. Also, in the eyes of the law what matters is not what's best for the woman or the man, but what's best for the CHILD, regardless of hwo the child was conceived. The truly innocent party here is the baby-to-be, and therefore the law steps in to make sure that the child is not abandoned, at least financially, by the parties involved in creating him/her.

Note another annoying legal twist -- wife is cheating on husband. Wife gets preggers by adulterous boyfriend. Husband doesn't know until after the divorce, 5 years later or whatever. Wants to disown the kid and stop child support.

The law USED to be that you couldn't avoid it -- the child of a married woman was presumptively the child of the husband. I'm not sure what the current rule is, but I'd be surprised if it has changed where the boyfriend skipped town or wasn't aware of the birth or whatever.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 11:03 AM

Oh no. The Return of the Sperm Gurgler.

ROFL ROFL

jspchief

03-09-2006, 11:04 AM

I think men should sleep with women they can trust.There's a word for that... abstinence.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 11:04 AM

I think men should sleep with women they can trust.

And that, ultimately is what makes the most sense. Of course that's easy for me to say -- I never get drunk or engage in "free love" as they used to say. :D The women I've slept with were always in the context of a committed relationship.

On the other hand, human nature being what it is, that answer doesn't work for everybody.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 11:05 AM

Because there's one baby, and you can't split it. Also, in the eyes of the law what matters is not what's best for the woman or the man, but what's best for the CHILD, regardless of hwo the child was conceived. The truly innocent party here is the baby-to-be, and therefore the law steps in to make sure that the child is not abandoned, at least financially, by the parties involved in creating him/her.

Sooooo nice to read these posts from you men.

Donger

03-09-2006, 11:05 AM

I think men should sleep with women they can trust.

My wife wants another child. I do not. I wonder if I should trust her?

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 11:07 AM

Sooooo nice to read these posts from you men.

Actually, to be technical, I'm just explaining, as a lawyer, what the law says, and why it says it.

The law is completely blind as to the particulars of any given situation. The rule is simple, but might be oversimple. I'm somewhat displeased by the unfairness of forcing a man to pay for his ex-wife's adulterous love child, for example...

Katipan

03-09-2006, 11:07 AM

I'll give her one.

bkkcoh

03-09-2006, 11:08 AM

I think men should sleep with women they can trust.

But that would eliminate a late activity. Would probably prevent a lot of date-rape charges also. I guess that isn't a bad idea afterall..

There's a word for that... abstinence.

but that isn't taught anyway, with the exception of homes..... Isn't it??

Donger

03-09-2006, 11:08 AM

I'll give her one.

You've got a spare one?

Iowanian

03-09-2006, 11:09 AM

"Because?"

uh.....Because if you split the baby down the middle....thats an abortion.

Now..
I feel that in cases of adultery, determined early on...the husband should have no culpability. IF he chooses to stay with the wife, then he basically accepts responsibilty(IMO).

IN a case where a male raises a child as his own, until that Child is 5 years old, and finds out it is not biologically his....and leaves the kid...He's a yellow coward and a real dickhead.

If you've raised a kid long enough that they know you and think of you as "dad"...I think its your Obligation as a man to remain in that child's life..in the roll of FATHER. Too many men think about their pocketbook, and not the kid they're Effing up for life.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 11:09 AM

My wife wants another child. I do not. I wonder if I should trust her?

I wonder if you shouldn't take care of that bid-ness yourself. My wife and I agreed to 2 prior to marriage, but I knew she might, maybe, possibly, convince herself that 3 would be good (her parents think we should have a litter).

I cut off that debate (pun intended) by taking matters into my own (or my doctor's, to be specific) hands. As I told her both before and after I had the procedure -- she should feel free to have a third child, but unfortunately she'll need a new husband to do it with.

Donger

03-09-2006, 11:10 AM

I wonder if you shouldn't take care of that bid-ness yourself. My wife and I agreed to 2 prior to marriage, but I knew she might, maybe, possibly, convince herself that 3 would be good (her parents think we should have a litter).

I cut off that debate (pun intended) by taking matters into my own (or my doctor's, to be specific) hands. As I told her both before and after I had the procedure -- she should feel free to have a third child, but unfortunately she'll need a new husband to do it with.

gochiefs won't have to worry about this issue, until it becomes biologically possible to concieve a child in his arse.....I guess it is.....br@nco fans have to come from somewhere.

ASS11

03-09-2006, 11:15 AM

gochiefs won't have to worry about this issue, until it becomes biologically possible to concieve a child in his arse.....I guess it is.....br@nco fans have to come from somewhere.

In my ass?

Well...I admit my dong is rather long...

Katipan

03-09-2006, 11:17 AM

How far away is your asshole?

Iowanian

03-09-2006, 11:17 AM

I'm sure you'll be hitting t@co up for child support on Mauri Povich after the DNA results on little Babba Meatpeeker.

Inspector

03-09-2006, 11:38 AM

When you father a child, whether it be intended or not...its your responsibilty to take care of that kid. You sign that contract when Capt purplehead touches meat curtains. Its not the childs fault that a man chooses to perform the act. A real man, accepts that responsibility and provides for that kid the best he can...financially, physically and emotionally.

I don't think a man should ever be able to force a woman to have an abortion. I DO think, that since it IS as much his child as hers...the MAN should have to concent(exceptions for rape et al) before an abortion can take place. Its as much his child as hers....he should have the right to choose life for the kid, and if she doesn't want it....accept physical custody and terminate her rights to see the child.

If more men would take responsibility for their Own baby batter.....and stop having 5-6 kids with as many women.....the world would be a better place.

I also think any woman who has an abortion should also have her tubes tied at the same time.....and any man with kids with 3 women should have a mandatory clip....

:clap: :clap: :clap:

ASS11

03-09-2006, 11:43 AM

All women should have their cooters sewn shut after one child.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 11:44 AM

We'd still find a way to produce offspring thereby controlling you with our brazen ways.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 11:47 AM

All women should have their cooters sewn shut after one child.

err....this would effectively result in the elimination of the human race you schmuck.

JBucc

03-09-2006, 11:50 AM

All women should have their cooters sewn shut after one child.Isn't that what they're doing in China? Or maybe it was India. I suppose I could look it up but I'm lazy.

err....this would effectively result in the elimination of the human race you schmuck.

It would?

picasso

03-09-2006, 12:12 PM

bahahahahahaahahahahahahah

ok we'll take that proposal as soon as you men band together and get all the dead beat dads to own up to their responsibilities.

Please don't forget about deadbeat mothers as well that everyone pays for. I am talking about the welfare woman that bounces around with total disregard for how many kids she shits out because she knows that the more she has the more money she can make without working as well as health care. Balanced out I think that if men had any kind of choice such as no parental rights or obligations then less of these moronic bitches would exist.

And by the way most deadbeat dads come from relationships where more than one child is involved and not having the income to support all of them after a divorce. One child at $300 to $500 isn't bad compared to a guy paying $1500 to $2000 a month. According to many states if you have more than 1 child to support they can take over 50% of your income.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 12:15 PM

I most certainly don't think we need to give men rights over women because we have shitty welfare laws.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 12:25 PM

It would?

You didn't limit it to welfare or out-of-wedlock or whatever, so yeah, it would.

Assume 100 people in the world. You have a roughly even man/woman distribution, so 50 women.

You've limited yourself to 50 children out of this group of women. Of that group, approximately half would be expected to be girls. Next generation is 25 women who can have babies.

etc. ad infinitum.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 12:27 PM

Please don't forget about deadbeat mothers as well that everyone pays for. I am talking about the welfare woman that bounces around with total disregard for how many kids she shits out because she knows that the more she has the more money she can make without working as well as health care. Balanced out I think that if men had any kind of choice such as no parental rights or obligations then less of these moronic bitches would exist.

And by the way most deadbeat dads come from relationships where more than one child is involved and not having the income to support all of them after a divorce. One child at $300 to $500 isn't bad compared to a guy paying $1500 to $2000 a month. According to many states if you have more than 1 child to support they can take over 50% of your income.

err.....this debate has damn little to do with welfare reform, just so you know...

This post is similar to discussing whether Joe DiMaggio or Ted Williams was the better baseball player, and you come in mentioning that one of them was a deadbeat dad. err..... :hmmm:

sedated

03-09-2006, 12:28 PM

I hate welfare moms as much as anyone. They just don't see that the cost of having 9 kids outweighs the benefits. They end up spawning nothing but future problems for society.

However, those welfare moms wouldn't have kids if it wasn't for some guy not wrapping it up.

Donger

03-09-2006, 12:29 PM

It would?

WFT?

ASS11

03-09-2006, 12:33 PM

You didn't limit it to welfare or out-of-wedlock or whatever, so yeah, it would.

Assume 100 people in the world. You have a roughly even man/woman distribution, so 50 women.

You've limited yourself to 50 children out of this group of women. Of that group, approximately half would be expected to be girls. Next generation is 25 women who can have babies.

etc. ad infinitum.

http://www.starwars.jp/organization/image/clone_trooper_2.jpg

bkkcoh

03-09-2006, 12:42 PM

I most certainly don't think we need to give men rights over women because we have shitty welfare laws.

Who created the welfare laws..... Predominately men, what would you expect. It is just their way of trying to keep 'em down.....

Inspector

03-09-2006, 12:52 PM

All women should have their cooters sewn shut after one child.

But, then we'd have to watch more TV.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 01:01 PM

http://www.starwars.jp/organization/image/clone_trooper_2.jpg

err...we'd overcome the problem with your suggestion by cloning? Is that what you're saying with this post (it amazes me that Star Wars can answer all questions).

Anyway, a couple MINOR thoughts.

1. I don't happen to know any master cloning Kaminos. Do you?

2. Sex is good. You ought to try it sometime. Sewing up vaginas is probably counterproductive to, you know, getting laid.

KCFalcon59

03-09-2006, 01:34 PM

I think men should sleep with women they can trust.

They don't exist. At least not in the real world.

whoaskew

03-09-2006, 01:38 PM

I think men should sleep with women they can trust.

They still make those? I thought they went out with Betamax.

ASS11

03-09-2006, 01:43 PM

err...we'd overcome the problem with your suggestion by cloning? Is that what you're saying with this post (it amazes me that Star Wars can answer all questions).

Anyway, a couple MINOR thoughts.

1. I don't happen to know any master cloning Kaminos. Do you?

2. Sex is good. You ought to try it sometime. Sewing up vaginas is probably counterproductive to, you know, getting laid.

1. No, and it's "Kaminoans."

2. Anal sex much?

Mile High Mania

03-09-2006, 01:48 PM

There are so many things that can be debated... especially when you put the argument out there about "it's a woman's body, she can do as she wishes concerning abortion."

If you're a guy, you have 3 very simple options...

1) Don't have sex
2) If you have sex, wrap it up
3) If you have sex, pull out well before anything happens

If you dance on the wildside carelessly then it's time for both parties to own up to it. Abortion is still legal in this country and you can't force a woman to do it or not to do it if you're the potential daddy.

The guy has all the control he needs to have prior to dropping his pants. After that, you deal with the cards you get.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 01:49 PM

1. No, and it's "Kaminoans."

Like I care.

2. Anal sex much?

No, I agree with Kotter on the whole anal sex thing. I'll take p***y thanks.

bkkcoh

03-09-2006, 01:51 PM

...
If you dance on the wildside carelessly then it's time for both parties to own up to it. Abortion is still legal in this country and you can't force a woman to do it or not to do it if you're the potential daddy.

The guy has all the control he needs to have prior to dropping his pants. After that, you deal with the cards you get.

Yep, sounds like pro-choice, but prior to conception. :clap:

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 01:52 PM

bahahahahahaahahahahahahah

ok we'll take that proposal as soon as you men band together and get all the dead beat dads to own up to their responsibilities.
Why, are you women incapable of taking care of yourselves? You need a man to pay you for having kids and another man to track him down and make him do it?

Yeah women's rights!

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 01:53 PM

The guy doesn't have to be pregnant.

The guy's "out" is contraceptives or abstinance.

And be happy for it.
The guy has to stand by and watch someone kill his unborn child. Big thrill.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 01:55 PM

Did your tourettes kick in?

bkkcoh

03-09-2006, 01:56 PM

But, then we'd have to watch more TV.

Or worse, talk to them.....

j/k

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 02:14 PM

Why? It's not equal work or labor.
You're right. The woman works for 9 months the man works for 18 years.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 02:18 PM

You're right. The woman works for 9 months the man works for 18 years.

So raising kids involves no work? And the woman contributes nothing to the kid's financial support. You're being dumb.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 02:18 PM

Why, are you women incapable of taking care of yourselves? You need a man to pay you for having kids and another man to track him down and make him do it?

Yeah women's rights!

So a guy should just be able to ditch all responsibility for his kid?

bkkcoh

03-09-2006, 02:24 PM

So raising kids involves no work? And the woman contributes nothing to the kid's financial support. You're being dumb.

I must have missed the 'no work' part of raising kids.. Having 3 teenagers is sometimes worse than working 50 hours a week.... :banghead:

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 02:31 PM

So a guy should just be able to ditch all responsibility for his kid?
It's the other end of the spectrum where he can't stop the abortion, so yes. I think it's stupid, but the two are equadistant on opposite sides of the intelligent point.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 02:33 PM

So raising kids involves no work? And the woman contributes nothing to the kid's financial support. You're being dumb.
How about giving the kids to the father by default and having the mother work 2 full time jobs so she can support herself and still make the child support payments?

My only point is that the system is currently skewed strongly to the woman and I think that's a reflection of society's view of women as the weaker species. I'm a big women's lib/equal rights kind of guy. The mother should have the same right to work and never see the kids as the father does.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 02:34 PM

Far too many health risks due to pregnancy to allow anyone else control over it.

Demonpenz

03-09-2006, 02:34 PM

i am wondering why he flipped out over ice cream

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 02:35 PM

bahahahahahaahahahahahahah

ok we'll take that proposal as soon as you men band together and get all the dead beat dads to own up to their responsibilities.
Oh, I'd also like to know when you women are going to band together and get all the women denying visitation to own up to their responsibilities.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 02:37 PM

Far too many health risks due to pregnancy to allow anyone else control over it.
ROFL

How about guys who earn their living doing dangerous jobs? High stress jobs?

Far too many health risks involved in working to allow anyone else control over it.

jspchief

03-09-2006, 02:37 PM

There are so many things that can be debated... especially when you put the argument out there about "it's a woman's body, she can do as she wishes concerning abortion."

If you're a guy, you have 3 very simple options...

1) Don't have sex
2) If you have sex, wrap it up
3) If you have sex, pull out well before anything happens

If you dance on the wildside carelessly then it's time for both parties to own up to it. Abortion is still legal in this country and you can't force a woman to do it or not to do it if you're the potential daddy.

The guy has all the control he needs to have prior to dropping his pants. After that, you deal with the cards you get.And this folks, is how men end up as daddies....

Pulling out before you nut is playing russian roulette. Pre-ejaculatory excretions contain sperm too.

Nothing like some nice misinformation in a lecture on how to not get a girl pregnant.:rolleyes:

Katipan

03-09-2006, 02:38 PM

you first

Katipan

03-09-2006, 02:40 PM

ROFL

How about guys who earn their living doing dangerous jobs? High stress jobs?

Far too many health risks involved in working to allow anyone else control over it.

Yes but see thats the punishment both parents have for having sex.

Having to work for their child for the rest of their lives.

Only one person has to be pregnant. Only one person gets to make all the choices.

Don't want us to make all your choices? Choose a different sex, or a different method of sex.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 02:43 PM

you first
The last time I fell for that I was 10.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 02:47 PM

I don't honestly know one woman who would unjustifiably deny visitation to a father.

keg in kc

03-09-2006, 02:49 PM

The solution here is just for everyone to stop having sex.

Sadly, I'm on the front line of that movement.

stevieray

03-09-2006, 02:49 PM

Yes but see thats the punishment both parents have for having sex.

Having to work for their child for the rest of their lives.

Only one person has to be pregnant. Only one person gets to make all the choices.

Don't want us to make all your choices? Choose a different sex, or a different method of sex.

I've never looked at my girls as punishment, more like a blessing.

And in that I believe lies part of the problem..too many people look at children as a burden, and not as a gift.

Why does it seem that you only hear about abstinence when it applies to men? Let's not pretend that women don't control what happpens sexually in a relationship.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 02:52 PM

I don't honestly know one woman who would unjustifiably deny visitation to a father.
You must be kidding. Either you don't know any divorced couples or your definition of "justifiable" needs work.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 02:53 PM

I said it negatively because of his whine about high stress jobs.

We've established over and over that it's both parties fault. The premise of the thread however is men wanting more rights over it.

bkkcoh

03-09-2006, 02:54 PM

The solution here is just for everyone to stop having sex.

Sadly, I'm on the front line of that movement.

Is that self-imposed or other????? :hmmm: :banghead: :cuss:

Katipan

03-09-2006, 02:54 PM

You must be kidding. Either you don't know any divorced couples or your definition of "justifiable" needs work.

All the divorced couples I know either share custody or have custody arrangements.

Of the close male friends in my life, 2 are raising their daughters by themselves, and the other is raising 3 kids that aren't even his.

And justifiable would mean to me what it would mean to most women. Abuse. Court orders. I'm sure you can follow along.

ASS11

03-09-2006, 02:55 PM

The solution here is just for everyone to stop having sex.

Sadly, I'm on the front line of that movement.

*salutes*

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 02:56 PM

I said it negatively because of his whine about high stress jobs.

We've established over and over that it's both parties fault. The premise of the thread however is men wanting more rights over it.
What we've established is that the responsibility for pregnancy is equal but after conception the woman gets to make all the life and death decisions while the man holds the financial responsibilities.

keg in kc

03-09-2006, 02:56 PM

Is that self-imposed or other????? Yes.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 02:57 PM

What we've established is that the responsibility for pregnancy is equal but after conception the woman gets to make all the life and death decisions while the man holds the financial responsibilities.

While they BOTH hold financial responsibilities. But you were close. Good job.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 02:57 PM

And justifiable would mean to me what it would mean to most women. Abuse. Court orders. I'm sure you can follow along.
Yes, because no woman has ever filed false charges of abuse to get her ex to do something he wouldn't.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 02:59 PM

Oh good grief.

And no man ever lied about wanting to take care of a woman and her baby and then beat the shit out of her only to leave her carcass in the beat up trunk of a chevy that was shoved onto the rickety backend of a train as it was driven off the rocky edge of a cliff into hell.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 03:03 PM

While they BOTH hold financial responsibilities. But you were close. Good job.
Really? If the woman decides she doesn't want the financial burden she can abort or put the kid up for adoption. The man? Tough s**t, pay up pal.

The woman may have responsibilities, but she has an out. All my plan does is give the man that same out.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:04 PM

I must have missed the 'no work' part of raising kids.. Having 3 teenagers is sometimes worse than working 50 hours a week.... :banghead:

No kidding. There's lots of Monday mornings when I settle in at my desk and think "thank God, peace and quiet"!!! :D

Katipan

03-09-2006, 03:04 PM

When he can get pregnant, he can have the same outs.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 03:05 PM

When he can get pregnant, he can have the same outs.
When she can pay to raise her own kids without the man's help...

They're both stupid arguments.

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:06 PM

Let's not pretend that women don't control what happpens sexually in a relationship.
They do not! It isn't their fault that their legs go up in the air and separate. It's the man's fault I tell you!

stevieray

03-09-2006, 03:07 PM

They do not! It isn't their fault that their legs go up in the air and separate. It's the man's fault I tell you!

mmm..this apple is delicious...

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:07 PM

mmm..this apple is delicious...
ROFL:thumb:

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:08 PM

How about giving the kids to the father by default and having the mother work 2 full time jobs so she can support herself and still make the child support payments?

I note that this is a random statement unsupported by any kind of facts, even hypothetical ones. The question here is wholly abstract. What if we assume the guy is making six figures? That should change the responsibility??

My only point is that the system is currently skewed strongly to the woman and I think that's a reflection of society's view of women as the weaker species. I'm a big women's lib/equal rights kind of guy. The mother should have the same right to work and never see the kids as the father does.

Usually custody battles don't involve NOT wanting the kid. Often the mother DOES work. The whole welfare mom, sitting on the couch eating bon-bons while her screaming kids run around wild, and getting laid every day trying to create more kids so she can get a bigger welfare check, plays well as a right-wing snow job, but accounts for a VERY small percentage of child support situations IMHO.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 03:08 PM

When she can pay to raise her own kids without the man's help...

They're both stupid arguments.

Hardly. At the end of the day the law is to protect the kid. Yours is just to protect the daddy.

Daddy has different protection.

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:08 PM

Daddy has different protection.
So does mommy.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 03:09 PM

They do not! It isn't their fault that their legs go up in the air and separate. It's the man's fault I tell you!
No, but it is our fault for not being able to keep our willies to ourselves. Some men need to learn that they have a hand.

Actually, another thought just occurred to me. This is another strong argument for legalized prostitution, both male and female. If you want to f**k without fear you could hire a pro and have a written contract.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 03:11 PM

So does mommy.

I'm not asking for more rights.

whoaskew

03-09-2006, 03:11 PM

I don't honestly know one woman who would unjustifiably deny visitation to a father.

Yeah, and I don't know you, but that doesn't mean YOU don't exist.

I know plenty of unfortunate fathers in the above described situation.

I am also sure we all know women who have kids who shouldn't.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 03:13 PM

I can't very well lead a banner crusade if I can't find any.

You round them up and bring them to me.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 03:13 PM

The whole welfare mom, sitting on the couch eating bon-bons while her screaming kids run around wild, and getting laid every day trying to create more kids so she can get a bigger welfare check, plays well as a right-wing snow job, but accounts for a VERY small percentage of child support situations IMHO.
Of all the divorced with kids couples I've met in my life I haven't know one where the woman paid child support whether she had the kid or not. I've also only known one where the father got primary custody while I can't think of a single one of the fathers that didn't want custody.

I'm not even considering the mother with kids by 5 fathers collecting welfare bit. I'm talking about fathers who wanted to be more than every other weekend and two weeks during the summer to their kids but weren't allowed to be.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 03:13 PM

You're not going to find many women that have patience for other women denying good fathers the right to see their kids.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 03:14 PM

I'm not asking for more rights.
You have 5 apples, we have none, but you're proud of yourself for not asking for more apples?

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:16 PM

Of all the divorced with kids couples I've met in my life I haven't know one where the woman paid child support whether she had the kid or not. I've also only known one where the father got primary custody while I can't think of a single one of the fathers that didn't want custody.

I'm not even considering the mother with kids by 5 fathers collecting welfare bit. I'm talking about fathers who wanted to be more than every other weekend and two weeks during the summer to their kids but weren't allowed to be.
You want a real world example - ME. I gained custody of my two kids after their mom had custody for 6 years. I reliqiously paid my $600+ child support each month. I gained custody, the woman jusge in Alabamy ordered the ex to pay $192 to me each month. You want to know how much I received in 6 years.....

Where did you get proud? It just is. I think the women should hold the power over their body apple. I think the country should force both parties to pick as many damn apples as it takes.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 03:20 PM

You want a real world example - ME. I gained custody of my two kids after their mom had custody for 6 years. I reliqiously paid my $600+ child support each month. I gained custody, the woman jusge in Alabamy ordered the ex to pay $192 to me each month.

:hmmm: So the kids are worth more than three times as much when she has them?

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 03:21 PM

jeez your already a sissy computer programmer be a man for once
Hey!

kcmaxwell

03-09-2006, 03:22 PM

posted by ChiefsFanatic: When a woman gets pregnant [either unplanned or otherwise] they have the right to abort, give away, or have the child.

When the man does not want the baby,and the woman does, he has no choice but to go along with what the woman wants. If he does want the baby, and the woman does not, he still has to go along with what the woman wants.

In any pregnancy, from unprotected sex or just an unplanned pregnancy, there are two parties involved in conception. Two guilty parties. Women [I am talking in broad, general terms]always act like the man is the bastard for making them pregnant, and usually want to disavow any responsibility in reaching that state themselves.

I just think that men should have an equal say or right, since they were %50 of the cause.

Deadbeat dads suck, but men being powerless also sucks.

couldn't agree more!! I've been involved w/ both sides of the arguement,
i have a dead beat dad
and a buddy of mine had a child aborted that he Did want...
guess this is a tricky subject...

maxwell

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:23 PM

:hmmm: So the kids are worth more than three times as much when she has them?
based on income, but there was much more than that. I had to:
1) pay ALL outstanding balances on all joint accounts (even though she ran them up and didn't pay them while I was on deployment).
2) Sell our joint house at a loss (MY loss only) (that she could live in until sold)
3) Pay for all visitation trips since I was based in San Diego and she lived in Alabamy with new hubby.

and it all started when I caught her cheating. Yeah, that was all fair. :banghead::cuss:

Katipan

03-09-2006, 03:23 PM

oh lordy

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:24 PM

Where did you get proud? It just is. I think the women should hold the power over their body apple.
I agree and they should have to pay for the fruits of that apple as well.

stevieray

03-09-2006, 03:25 PM

You want a real world example - ME. I gained custody of my two kids after their mom had custody for 6 years. I reliqiously paid my $600+ child support each month. I gained custody, the woman jusge in Alabamy ordered the ex to pay $192 to me each month. You want to know how much I received in 6 years.....

As a man with three kids and who loves their mother, I think this dialoge in general is despicable. You get a woman pregnant--it's your fault and live with the consequences and take responsibility.

However, the logic side of me thinks that if the law insists on giving the woman the right to make all the choices (from sleeping with the guy to deciding the fate of the baby) she should foster all the responsibility from a birth control perspective.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 03:28 PM

I agree and they should have to pay for the fruits of that apple as well.

Sure would be nice if there was a group of people out there that could have helped a parent gain all the child support they were owed.

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:29 PM

but i'm not bitter........

Women want all the power and be like men. Then they should sack up and be responsible just like men. That's all I would ever ask for - fairness. But not in this society. Example - When a male teached molests a 15 yr old female student = 20yrs prison & a female teached has "consenual sex" with a 15 yr old student = probation, I have serious problems when women want =pay, =treatment, =rights & other demand crap that is being shoved up our arses but not =responsibilities in society.

stevieray

03-09-2006, 03:30 PM

Sure would be nice if there was a group of people out there that could have helped a parent gain all the child support they were owed.

there is...most states will take your drivers' license if you don't pay.

they like me, I paid over 20k in child support.

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:30 PM

Sure would be nice if there was a group of people out there that could have helped a parent gain all the child support they were owed.
There are but they are only & I know from experience, only pitbullish about collecting when its a man.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:30 PM

You have 5 apples, we have none, but you're proud of yourself for not asking for more apples?

The problem is there is ONE apple here, not five. You're swimming upstream against basic societal precepts, but that's fine.

And you may know lots of men that want to be the primary caregiver, but my experience is notably different. Usually the men are arguing for custody more for leverage on other matters (such as the amount of payment) than out of an actual desire to have the kids full time.

Mainly, though, I want to take this opportunity to thank my lucky stars that I'm not a divorce lawyer. *shudder*

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:32 PM

but i'm not bitter........

Women want all the power and be like men. Then they should sack up and be responsible just like men. That's all I would ever ask for - fairness. But not in this society. Example - When a male teached molests a 15 yr old female student = 20yrs prison & a female teached has "consenual sex" with a 15 yr old student = probation, I have serious problems when women want =pay, =treatment, =rights & other demand crap that is being shoved up our arses but not =responsibilities in society.

And women would like equal pay, equal opportunity in the workplace, and to not get screwed over if they go to a car mechanic or car salesman. Life's not fair. Get over it.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:34 PM

You want a real world example - ME. I gained custody of my two kids after their mom had custody for 6 years. I reliqiously paid my $600+ child support each month. I gained custody, the woman jusge in Alabamy ordered the ex to pay $192 to me each month. You want to know how much I received in 6 years.....

You should have chased her for it, in court. If you did, then the system screwed you, and I'm sorry for that.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:35 PM

:hmmm: So the kids are worth more than three times as much when she has them?

Duh. He made alot more, almost certainly. And don't pretend for a second you didn't already realize that likely fact.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:36 PM

based on income, but there was much more than that. I had to:
1) pay ALL outstanding balances on all joint accounts (even though she ran them up and didn't pay them while I was on deployment).
2) Sell our joint house at a loss (MY loss only) (that she could live in until sold)
3) Pay for all visitation trips since I was based in San Diego and she lived in Alabamy with new hubby.

and it all started when I caught her cheating. Yeah, that was all fair. :banghead::cuss:

Did all this get brought up at the divorce proceeding?

Donger

03-09-2006, 03:36 PM

You want a real world example - ME. I gained custody of my two kids after their mom had custody for 6 years. I reliqiously paid my $600+ child support each month. I gained custody, the woman jusge in Alabamy ordered the ex to pay $192 to me each month. You want to know how much I received in 6 years.....

Let me get this straight: she was cheating on you, you got divorced based on that fact and she then remarried.

And you still had to pay her child support?

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:37 PM

Let me get this straight: she was cheating on you, you got divorced based on that fact and she then remarried.

And you still had to pay her child support?

I think the thinking is that it's his child, not the new hubby's. It's not like divorce law with alimony that goes away upon remarriage. It's child support from the biological father. I don't think that one goes away.

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:38 PM

You should have chased her for it, in court. If you did, then the system screwed you, and I'm sorry for that.
I did, got screwed again (lawyer fees), and not sorry at all. I have two great kids in college - one living with me, one out on his own, and an ex having multiple drug and alcohol addiction hospital stays living on $10-12/hr pay. It equaled out for me but it was hell getting to this point. I was taught that hard work, fairness, and compassion always results in that wonderful world of what comes around goes around occuring and it has. I am really not bitter jst having fun with this topic cause I lived it.

Donger

03-09-2006, 03:39 PM

I think the thinking is that it's his child, not the new hubby's. It's not like divorce law with alimony that goes away upon remarriage. It's child support from the biological father. I don't think that one goes away.

Biology's free. Raising kids isn't.

I see the point, however. I wonder if that changes if the new hubby adopts the kids?

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:39 PM

Did all this get brought up at the divorce proceeding?
Yep, i got out of alimony because of that info. a good thing.

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:40 PM

I think the thinking is that it's his child, not the new hubby's. It's not like divorce law with alimony that goes away upon remarriage. It's child support from the biological father. I don't think that one goes away.
All Correct!

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:41 PM

Biology's free. Raising kids isn't.

I see the point, however. I wonder if that changes if the new hubby adopts the kids?
Yes it does but no woman in her right mind that doesn't have the money that her ex has would ever go for that. I promise you, gots to have the payday!

stevieray

03-09-2006, 03:43 PM

And women would like equal pay, equal opportunity in the workplace, and to not get screwed over if they go to a car mechanic or car salesman. Life's not fair. Get over it.

this psot is ironic.

stevieray

03-09-2006, 03:44 PM

I did, got screwed again (lawyer fees), and not sorry at all. I have two great kids in college - one living with me, one out on his own, and an ex having multiple drug and alcohol addiction hospital stays living on $10-12/hr pay. It equaled out for me but it was hell getting to this point. I was taught that hard work, fairness, and compassion always results in that wonderful world of what comes around goes around occuring and it has. I am really not bitter jst having fun with this topic cause I lived it.

I can totally relate.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:47 PM

Biology's free. Raising kids isn't.

I see the point, however. I wonder if that changes if the new hubby adopts the kids?

Yes.

Consider this -- if you cut off child support and then the new hubby and the ex get divorced 2 years later, what do you do? Reinstate child support? Get it from the new (now new-ex) hubby? Doesn't make much sense.

Of course, the whole system is sort of dysfunctional. Women often won't get remarried -- just live in "sin" -- in order to avoid giving up the alimony. Not good to have a policy that discourages marriage, but then again you can't have a policy where a remarried person with a new additioanl source of supprot continues to collect alimony.

Whole thing isn't really fair no matter how you slice it.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:49 PM

Yep, i got out of alimony because of that info. a good thing.

Well that's something. Of course, I've heard a horror story or two about how an ex with custody is misusing the child support while the kid is eating Ramen noodles every night and Mom is bingeing or whatever.

:shake: Then you need to report to your child services bureau and try to take custody, but meanwhile, the kids are in a bad situation, Mommy and Daddy are fighting, bitterness all around. Very ugly.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:49 PM

this psot is ironic.

Life is ironic too. ;)

Donger

03-09-2006, 03:50 PM

And, yet again, I'm thankful that I married an ugly woman who adores every breath I take.

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:52 PM

off the subject, it snowing here in Vancouver WA/Portland OR today. Pretty nice when you only get it once/twice a year.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:52 PM

Let me put it this way -- the system WOULD work if people did what was right and just. Divorces would be amicable, child support payments would go to the actual child, people who got divorced and then moved in with someone would get remarried after a certain, reasonable point in time, rather than suck up all the alimony they could.

Unfortunately, as anyone over the age of 5 knows, people suck.

Worse -- the hidden trick -- HAVING kids is one of the things that puts the biggest stress ON a marriage. If the marriage isn't rock-solid, the kids themselves and the stress they cause (not consciously) can stress the relationship between husband/wife, leading to the divorce that causes all the other problems.

I'm not blaming kids for divorces -- ultimately it'd probably happen anyway, and it sure as hell isn't their FAULT in any meaningful way. I'm just noting a certain fact and how things can spiral out of everyone's control despite what might have been the best of intentions.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 03:53 PM

It smelled like rain yesterday, but then we got nothing. It's like day 904 without rain.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:53 PM

And, yet again, I'm thankful that I married an ugly woman who adores every breath I take.

Yeah, me too. 'cept the ugly part. :D

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 03:53 PM

Whole thing isn't really fair no matter how you slice it.
Sounds like the only solid answer is to kill the bitch.

:shrug:

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 03:53 PM

It smelled like rain yesterday, but then we got nothing. It's like day 904 without rain.
It rained just enough in PV to leave dusty raindrop prints all over my pickup.

keg in kc

03-09-2006, 03:54 PM

but i'm not bitter........

Women want all the power and be like men. Then they should sack up and be responsible just like men. That's all I would ever ask for - fairness. But not in this society. Example - When a male teached molests a 15 yr old female student = 20yrs prison & a female teached has "consenual sex" with a 15 yr old student = probation, I have serious problems when women want =pay, =treatment, =rights & other demand crap that is being shoved up our arses but not =responsibilities in society.I'm sure most of the people who want equal pay, equal treatment, equal rights and other "crap" for women also want equal societal responsibility. It's the women (and men) who are satisfied with things the way they are who're more likely to be the ones who want to be coddled and protected and treated like glass dolls.

And I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm simply stating what I see. Personally, I'm in favor of more equal gender roles, but that's my own opinion and I'm not one who feels an overwhelming need for everyone to agree with me.

I like to picture what western society would be like if it was still matriarchal. I'm sure I'd want more, too. So I can't really fault women for thinking the same way I would if the tables were turned.

But I also think there's an unfair balance against men where children are concerned.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:54 PM

Haven't had much snow since that big nor'easter I posted about a couple months back. That one dumped nearly two feet on me, but nothing since then.

Compared to last year, which had a total of about 80 inches (that's nearly 7 feet of snow), this year is a piece of cake.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 03:55 PM

It rained just enough in PV to leave dusty raindrop prints all over my pickup.

I'm pregnant. Give me money. And your soul.

Iowanian

03-09-2006, 03:55 PM

This boils down to 1 thing...

There are far too many "baby daddy and my other baby daddy" and not enough Fathers.

Every man is responsible for the fluids that leave his body and where they are deposited.

I did more than my share of playing the field, for the better part of 13 years, and managed to not have a kid until I was aiming.

Regardless of what a woman tells you, you still are responsible to cover it up(and keep the red blisters off).

Anyone who has a kid(that they know about) who doesn't care for it financially AND physically/emotionally because its hard/difficult/inconvenient/expensive whatever......isn't a man IMO.....but rather a pathetic f@ck.

I think the Man should have to sign off Concent on abortion of their child for another reason also......so that if he helps choose to kill that kid, he has to look himself in the mirror, sleep with that knowledge, and face his maker for the decision.

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 03:55 PM

I'm pregnant. Give me money. And your soul.
Yes, dear.

keg in kc

03-09-2006, 03:55 PM

We've had rain for less than a day and I'm already sick of it.

Donger

03-09-2006, 03:56 PM

Yeah, me too. 'cept the ugly part. :D

Fool. The ugly ones try harder.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:56 PM

I like to picture what western society would be like if it was still matriarchal. I'm sure I'd want more, too. So I can't really fault women for thinking the same way I would if the tables were turned.

Western society has never been matriarchial. Heck, practically no human civilization in the history of the planet has been. But your point is well taken -- assuming hypothetically a matriarchial society...

keg in kc

03-09-2006, 03:58 PM

I should really stop procrastinating and leave for work.

And I didn't even realize I'd put the word "still" in there. Weird.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 03:59 PM

Fool. The ugly ones try harder.

I seem to think that your wife was a hottie, actually. Whether you said it, or someone else did, or a pic got posted or whatever...

'course the simple fact that you're saying she is is almost definite proof that she ain't. :D

Mine is a sweet girl that I found hiding under a deep rock and I've enjoyed corrupting her ever since. :evil:

stevieray

03-09-2006, 03:59 PM

Let me put it this way -- the system WOULD work if people did what was right and just. Divorces would be amicable, child support payments would go to the actual child, people who got divorced and then moved in with someone would get remarried after a certain, reasonable point in time, rather than suck up all the alimony they could.

Unfortunately, as anyone over the age of 5 knows, people suck.

Worse -- the hidden trick -- HAVING kids is one of the things that puts the biggest stress ON a marriage. If the marriage isn't rock-solid, the kids themselves and the stress they cause (not consciously) can stress the relationship between husband/wife, leading to the divorce that causes all the other problems.

I'm not blaming kids for divorces -- ultimately it'd probably happen anyway, and it sure as hell isn't their FAULT in any meaningful way. I'm just noting a certain fact and how things can spiral out of everyone's control despite what might have been the best of intentions.

I think having kids brings out the best in some people, and the worst in others. I also think that money plays a big part in divorce.

IMO, if you leave your kids and use them as a means for divorce, you really suck at being human, regardless of gender.

KC Dan

03-09-2006, 03:59 PM

I'm pregnant. Give me money. And your soul.
:clap:
If you're giving it to Brian, you already have all of that...

keg in kc

03-09-2006, 04:00 PM

I married a total dog who was a freak.

Yet another example of thinking with the wrong head.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 04:24 PM

I think having kids brings out the best in some people, and the worst in others. I also think that money plays a big part in divorce.

IMO, if you leave your kids and use them as a means for divorce, you really suck at being human, regardless of gender.

Agreed regarding the first paragraph, but I think that kids do add stress to a marriage. They completely change the entire dynamic of the married couple's relationship, because now suddenly someone else is very, very involved in the house.

I don't think people use kids as a "means" for divorce, but I certainly think people, particularly men, will use custody as leverage in a situation where they don't necessarily have much OTHER leverage, in order to reduce alimony and the like.

I've seen some divorces that are absolutely beyond bitter, and I'm sure most of us have at least heard of it. Frankly, it's surprising that someone didn't pull out a shotgun...

A paralegal I work with used to work for a primarily divorce attorney. She has some great stories. One involves a deposition of the husband where the wife felt that she got screwed somehow (I dunno if he cheated or what). In the middle of the deposition, he basically broke down. "I don't care. Take the house, the car, the kids -- you can have it all. I don't care about that stuff. Let's just end this." It was a serious offer -- better than anything she could possibly get from the judge.

Her answer -- "No. I want you to suffer". Her attorney was rolling his eyes and all, because she was being an idiot. Emotion over common sense, business sense, hell, any kind of sense. But that's how these things go sometimes.

Donger

03-09-2006, 04:41 PM

I seem to think that your wife was a hottie, actually. Whether you said it, or someone else did, or a pic got posted or whatever...

No. She's hideous.

'course the simple fact that you're saying she is is almost definite proof that she ain't. :D

Exactly.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 04:43 PM

Exactly.

Yeah, now i remember. 'Delt said she was hot and good in bed. Thinner than what he usually likes, but still...

:) :p

Katipan

03-09-2006, 04:44 PM

helloooo

i'm ****ing standing right here.

Donger

03-09-2006, 04:48 PM

helloooo

i'm ****ing standing right here.

Did you know that ENDelt's f*cked my wife?

JBucc

03-09-2006, 04:48 PM

OMG it can read

ASS11

03-09-2006, 04:51 PM

Did you know that ENDelt's f*cked my wife?

Hell, who hasn't?

Donger

03-09-2006, 04:52 PM

Hell, who hasn't?

I'm relatively sure my Dad hasn't.

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 04:52 PM

Did you know that ENDelt's f*cked my wife?
Hell, *I* didn't even know.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 04:54 PM

Did you know that ENDelt's f*cked my wife?

She warned you she wanted another kid.

Donger

03-09-2006, 04:55 PM

Hell, *I* didn't even know.

I try to block it out when we f*ck, too.

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 04:56 PM

She warned you she wanted another kid.
I don't care what Snopes says. My birth control plan of smoking pot seeds and drinking copious amounts of Mt. Dew is foolproof.

Donger

03-09-2006, 04:56 PM

She warned you she wanted another kid.

Better ENDelt than gochiefs, I guess.

Simplex3

03-09-2006, 04:56 PM

Hell, *I* didn't even know.
All that means is that it happened while you were drunk. It's a span of time most of us call "night".

Katipan

03-09-2006, 04:56 PM

ENDelt ****ed you too?

What a whore.

ASS11

03-09-2006, 04:57 PM

Better ENDelt than gochiefs, I guess.

I'm saving myself.

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 04:57 PM

This thread has been rather eye opening for me. And I've only been around for the last couple pages.

I hope Donger was at least gentle.

Donger

03-09-2006, 04:58 PM

ENDelt ****ed you too?

What a whore.

ROFL

I am going to be in the St. Louis area next week. Perhaps I'll keep an eye on him for you.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 04:58 PM

helloooo

i'm ****ing standing right here.

:eek: Something I ought to know here? :shrug:

Katipan

03-09-2006, 04:59 PM

All that you missed was that women are brazen sluts bent on dominating the world with our vaginas. But you already knew that.

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 04:59 PM

ROFL

I am going to be in the St. Louis area next week. Perhaps I'll keep an eye on him for you.
I only be in St. Louis briefly. Just as long as it takes to collect my luggage from baggage claim, hop in my friend's pickup, and get on I-44 on the way to Rolla.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 04:59 PM

Hell, *I* didn't even know.

:shrug: You were drunk at the time. No surprise you don't remember...

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 05:00 PM

:eek: Something I ought to know here? :shrug:
Haha. I hope this post is serious.

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 05:00 PM

All that you missed was that women are brazen sluts bent on dominating the world with our vaginas. But you already knew that.
Were there people who didn't?

Donger

03-09-2006, 05:00 PM

:eek: Something I ought to know here? :shrug:

Either Mer knows what my wife looks like and is trying to tell me knock it off, or ENDelt and I are having a torrid, homosexual, love affair.

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 05:01 PM

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it *torrid*.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 05:02 PM

:eek: Something I ought to know here? :shrug:

nothing we can talk about on the internet

Donger

03-09-2006, 05:02 PM

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it *torrid*.

Bitch.

ASS11

03-09-2006, 05:02 PM

All that you missed was that women are brazen sluts bent on dominating the world with our vaginas. But you already knew that.

YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!!! :cuss:

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 05:03 PM

Haha. I hope this post is serious.

Sadly, it is. Despite my 10K posts, I find that my participation must be limited to very few threads, because I never, ever know all the relationships behind the avatars, so to speak.

and I NEVER know anyone's real name.

:shrug:

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 05:03 PM

YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!!! :cuss:
Why the hell would they want to? You're no good for breeding.

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 05:04 PM

Sadly, it is. Despite my 10K posts, I find that my participation must be limited to very few threads, because I never, ever know all the relationships behind the avatars, so to speak.

and I NEVER know anyone's real name.

:shrug:
You must've had an extended break to miss this (http://67.18.68.69/BB/showthread.php?t=134746) and all the parodies.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 05:05 PM

It only took you 16 pages to make the thread about us.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 05:05 PM

Oh, is Katipan formerly Mer? Ok, now I got it, since I know about the Donger/Mer love affair *cough*

the other thing I never know is when people switch names. Took me like a damn month to figure out that Mr. Kotter was the former SDCheifsFan or whatever. :shake:

GoChiefs has been easy to keep track of though. :LOL:

Donger

03-09-2006, 05:06 PM

You must've had an extended break to miss this (http://67.18.68.69/BB/showthread.php?t=134746) and all the parodies.

NNNNNnnnnnnnnnoooooooo!

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 05:06 PM

It only took you 16 pages to make the thread about us.
Sorry, honey... I had work to do earlier.

Amnorix

03-09-2006, 05:07 PM

You must've had an extended break to miss this (http://67.18.68.69/BB/showthread.php?t=134746) and all the parodies.

No idea, but I've never seen that thread before, or least, never read thorugh it. I'll check it out... :D

Donger

03-09-2006, 05:07 PM

Oh, is Katipan formerly Mer? Ok, now I got it, since I know about the Donger/Mer love affair

What?

Katipan

03-09-2006, 05:07 PM

no... no... really. there's nothing in there.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 05:08 PM

What?

stop being coy.

ENDelt260

03-09-2006, 05:08 PM

Wait... so, I'm sleeping with Donger's wife... and Donger. And Donger's having an affair with my girlfriend?

Are we all in the same room for this?

Donger

03-09-2006, 05:10 PM

Wait... so, I'm sleeping with Donger's wife... and Donger. And Donger's having an affair with my girlfriend?

Are we all in the same room for this?

I'm confused, too. And I suddenly feel the need to shower. I'm even going to wash my legs.

Katipan

03-09-2006, 05:10 PM

Oh, is Katipan formerly Mer? Ok, now I got it, since I know about the Donger/Mer love affair *cough*

the other thing I never know is when people switch names. Took me like a damn month to figure out that Mr. Kotter was the former SDChiefsFan or whatever. :shake:

GoChiefs has been easy to keep track of though. :LOL:

I didn't realize funny Kotter was stuffy SDChiefsFan until I re-read the ass sex thread.