QUESTION: Thank you, Mr. President. You've said in the past that
waterboarding in your opinion is torture. And torture is a violation of
international law and the Geneva Conventions. Do you believe that the
previous administration sanctioned torture?

MR. OBAMA: What I've said -- and I will repeat -- is that
waterboarding violates our ideals and our values. I do believe that it
is torture. I don't think that's just my opinion; that's the opinion of
many who've examined the topic. And that's why I put an end to these
practices.

I am absolutely convinced that it was the right thing to do --
not because there might not have been information that was yielded by
these various detainees who were subjected to this treatment, but
because we could have gotten this information in other ways -- in ways
that were consistent with our values, in ways that were consistent with
who we are.

I was struck by an article that I was reading the other day
talking about the fact that the British, during World War II, when
London was being bombed to smithereens, had 200 or so detainees. And
Churchill said, "we don't torture," when the -- the entire British --
all of the British people were being subjected to unimaginable risk and threat. And
-- and -- and the reason was that Churchill understood, you start
taking shortcuts, and over time, that corrodes what's -- what's best in
a people.

The London Cage was run by MI19, the section of the War Office
responsible for gleaning information from enemy prisoners of war, and
few outside this organisation knew exactly what went on beyond the
single barbed-wire fence that separated the three houses from the busy
streets and grand parks of west London.

...

By examining thousands of
documents stored at the National Archives, formerly the Public Record
Office, as well as the archives of the International Committee of the
Red Cross in Geneva, the Guardian has established what happened to this
prisoner, and many others like him.

The London Cage was used
partly as a torture centre, inside which large numbers of German
officers and soldiers were subjected to systematic ill-treatment. In
total 3,573 men passed through the Cage, and more than 1,000 were
persuaded to give statements about war crimes. The brutality did not
end with the war, moreover: a number of German civilians joined the
servicemen who were interrogated there up to 1948.

...

Within the National Archives are documents from two official
inquiries into the methods employed at the Cage, one which heard
evidence that guards were under orders to knock on some prisoners' cell
doors every 15 minutes, depriving them of sleep, and another which
concluded with "the possibility that violence was used" during
interrogations.

There is also a long and detailed letter of
complaint from one SS captain, Fritz Knoechlein, who describes his
treatment after being taken to the Cage in October 1946. Knoechlein
alleges that because he was "unable to make the desired confession" he
was stripped, given only a pair of pyjama trousers, deprived of sleep
for four days and nights, and starved.

The guards kicked him each
time he passed, he alleges, while his interrogators boasted that they
were "much better" than the "Gestapo in Alexanderplatz". After being
forced to perform rigorous exercises until he collapsed, he says he was
compelled to walk in a tight circle for four hours. On complaining to
Scotland that he was being kicked even "by ordinary soldiers without a
rank", Knoechlein alleges that he was doused in cold water, pushed down
stairs, and beaten with a cudgel. Later, he says, he was forced to
stand beside a large gas stove with all its rings lit before being
confined in a shower which sprayed extremely cold water from the sides
as well as from above. Finally, the SS man says, he and another
prisoner were taken into the gardens behind the mansions, where they
were forced to run in circles while carrying heavy logs.

"Since
these tortures were the consequences of my personal complaint, any
further complaint would have been senseless," Knoechlein wrote. "One of
the guards who had a somewhat humane feeling advised me not to make any
more complaints, otherwise things would turn worse for me." Other
prisoners, he alleged, were beaten until they begged to be killed,
while some were told that they could be made to disappear.

Churchill tortured Germans, Roosevelt interned Japanese-Americans, yet we endure. Is the Guardian account plausible? I suppose we could compare this to British treatment of the IRA. FWIW, the commander of The Cage, Alexander Scotland, received a decoration from the Us and was never prosecuted by the British.

As to Sullivan's sense of history and ability to provide objective research, well, it's too bad no one alleged that Winston Churchill was the secret father of Trig Palin...

A TM classic:
"The President was far too kind to answer that he was most enchanted by the Times probing, hard-hitting journalism.

Where is the video? I bet Zeleny looks enchanting with his skirt and pom-poms. Give him an "O" indeed..."

What's the theme song here ."Don't know much about his-to-ry"?

Anyone alive who served in battle in WWII knows this guy is a stupid moron.
And relying on Sully? I'm persuaded that all his pro war stuff was based on some game in his head where he played with muscular saintly tin soldiers on the floor of some nursery while sipping hot chocolate and nibbling on biscuits with nanny.

BTW, I sent this yesterday to the AF office that deals with liaison with Hollywood and haven't received a response:
"There's a great deal of speculation involving this week's trip with fighter escort(s) of AF2 down the Hudson. Was your office involved in any way in this? If so, who requested your assistance? Who authorized it? Which civilians, if any, were aboard the crafts for the flight? What records do you have to support any information you supply in response to this request? Will you make them available without a FOIA request? "

[[[ Recall that Obama returned a bust of Churchill that the British government had loaned to the White House. At the time, the Telegraph noted, by way of possible explanation, that "It was during Churchill's second premiership that Britain suppressed Kenya's Mau Mau rebellion. Among Kenyans allegedly tortured by the colonial regime included one Hussein Onyango Obama, the President's grandfather." ]]]

The Guardian began as a socialist paper, The Manchester Guardian, and was co-opted by communists. It is probably the least credible of all papers, which is saying a lot these days. The people who currently own it, "their group," is made up of contacts who were tight with Kim Philby. That should tell you all you need to know.

-So within one week you have called one of our lead FBI guys tracking down Osama, Mr. Soufan, a liar, and accepted at face value the words of an SS Captain.

Nice work.-

So the left now takes whatever the FBI says as gospel?
And if you'll read TM's post rather than just being a consumate horse's ass he asks whether the Guardian's account is plausible.
We do know however that a good number of you dumbasses have accepted at face value the word's of Osama's troops.

Soufan, 'admitted' to Isikoff that his account of the Abu Zubeydah interrogations in the New York Times op ed was incomplete. I put that in quotes, because I don't put too much stock in Isikoff either, at least since the 'Koran in the toilet story', if not earlier. The account is from theNational
Archives, so if you have an argument take it up with them. The Guardian was willing to take the word of the Tipton 3, although
a new type of lie detector found at least one had lied about the extent of his terrorist training.

Torture has been with us for 5,000 years. One form of it is bullying. Another is terrorism. It's goal is to induce terror and fear and ignores the rules of combat. These all coerce the individual through violence.

State sponsored terror has been an instrument of policy by nations throughout history. Think about the mutually assured destruction policies of the United States and the Soviet Union or most nuclear policy today. Nukes can be used tactically but are not tactical.Once the trigger is pulled, fear and the potential for annihilation are unleashed on us all.

So it is in fact relative.Do we sacrifice the civil rights of an individual to protect the masses or go quietly into the night? Do we authorize certain individuals to carefully weigh the pros and cons and the consequences, or do we cover our eyes and ears and say nothing and wait for the consequences?

British torture of the Mau Mau's was extensive and in direct reaction to the Mau Mau's own theretofore unheard of brutality. They had a habit of hacking isolated farm families and their staffs to death and doing all sorts of insane things during and afterwards. Best left to the imagination.

The leader of the Mau Mau's was Jomo Kenyatta, who became a symbol of African freedom and lifetime president of Kenya. Perhaps the president might want to read a little history. His own grandfather could have been a terrorist.

The great anthropologist Lewis Leakey grew up with the Kikuyu and invented the system for breaking the MauMaus. It did not involve torture. It involved forcing them to undertake a de-cursing ceremony to undo the MauMau pledge they's taken under pain of death. I remember him describing it to me (and my classmates)when I was a college freshman.If we tried such a thing today on the jihadis --well, can you imagine?

The Mau Mau's were basically animists as well, Clarice, so not sure how it would play out with Muslim fanatics. Part of the Mau Mau initiation ritual was the repudiation of Western values. The initiations were so horrific that the shame instilled in most of them also ensured loyalty.As the fanatic quotient ratchets up, so do the measures required to combat it.

"it's too bad no one alleged that Winston Churchill was the secret father of Trig Palin..."

Hey, why not? As of a few days ago, the Washington Post's media columnist, Howie Kurtz, was still pushing the "fake turkey" meme. It's not as if the "layers of editors and fact checkers" seem to catch these factually-challenged assertions.

Let's not forget FDR also executed german saboteurs who hadn't actually sabotaged anything yet after setting up speedy show trials where their guilt was a foregone conclusion (and one of them was an american citizen)

I am not so sure the initiations were that horrific, but those who undertook it --often under threat of beatings or death--believed that if they broke away they would die from having dishonored the pledge which is why Leakey's counter initiation , breaking that oath, worked.

Well, technically the letter from the SS captain doesn't confirm that Churchill tortured. He wasn't brought there until 1946, and Churchill was given "the order of the boot" from a grateful British citizenry in 1945.

Anyone with even a basic knowledge of Irish history would not have used Churchill as an example of exemplary behavoir. Churchill created the Black and Tans, who were to the Irish of 1920 comparable to what the Gestapo were to the Jews of Europe 20 years later.

Don't forget that every official involved with the Japanese-American internment had decided by early 1944 that they were not a security risk and should be released, but Roosevelt would not release them until after the 1944 election. He was willing to keep thousands of innocent people interred for months for purely political reasons.

Worse, he succeeded in getting them interned only because his Solicitor General lied to the SCOTUS, claiming they were a security threat when there was no evidence for that and FBI director Hoover disputed that.

Has there ever been a definitive biography on J. Edgar? There's a commie and lowlife hating part of me that prefers to think of him positively, but some of the things like what bad alludes to are just flat-out weird. Not that there's anything wrong with it and not that it necessarily impaired his performance on the job. I'm thinking Clarice might have some telling anecdotes....

I can't even formulate anything terrible enough to say about them outing these 2 men. And a man that did nothing but misremember something was ruined for outing a desk jockey with a big mouthed husband.

"Given that waterboarding is not part of the current program and may never be added to the current program, I do not think it would be appropriate for me to pass definitive judgment on the technique's legality," he said.

Yet again, the Won appears to be taking credit for something he didn't do.

My ex-father-in-law (now deceased) was FBI, and posted to California before Pearl Harbor. He insisted that there were Japanese spies among the Japanese-American population, that the FBI had some under surveillance before the war started, but the FBI was concerned there were more unidentified. I don't know that he thought the internment itself was a good idea, though.